Why You Need A Brand Style Guide (not just a logo), Finding Clients & Sidehustling A Business

Laura was born and raised in Minnesota. She’s a lifelong creative and a self taught graphic designer. She started my business just under a year ago and has loved every minute. When she’s not designing, she’s probably going for a run or watching Netflix with her husband Josh. She’s a true crime nerd, total bookworm, and popcorn addict.

Do you struggle with getting your voice and your business out there to the local Twin Cities community? Don't worry, we've all been there and this podcast is ready to help. Welcome to the Twin Cities collective podcast with Jenna Redfield each week we'll be discussing topics that will educate, encourage and inspire you to grow your brand or business and introduce you to new ideas, businesses and entrepreneurs in the Twin Cities area hosted by Studio Americana in Golden Valley. This podcast shares tips and tricks to help grow your empire and have fun doing it. Hi, I'm your host Jenna Redfield, director of the Twin Cities collective and online community for local entrepreneurs, bloggers, small business owners and creatives. Make sure to join our Facebook group@facebook.com forward slash groups forward slash Twin Cities collective. Follow us on Instagram at Twin Cities collective and go to Twin Cities collective calm. To learn more about our upcoming workshops, subscribe on your podcast app and give us a review on Apple podcasts. Now sit back, relax and enjoy this episode of the podcast. Hey, everyone, welcome to MCs collective podcast. I'm your host Jenna Redfield, and today I have a very special guest, Miss Laura. Welcome, Laura. This is your first podcast. Yes, exciting. So Laura is a brand designer, as well as a graphic designer. And she actually has worked with us before on our shirts last fall. So that was really great. I met her through the group. And we've been working together for a while now. Yeah, really great. It's been fun. So can you tell us a little bit about your background and kind of how you got into design?

Laura Anne Creative 1:31

Sure. So I actually went to the University of St. Thomas, where I majored in marketing and minor in psychology. So no design school at all. And then I got a job at a construction company in the cities where I started doing communications and social media. And I was playing around a lot with Canada. Oh, yes, a free up, I kind of design. And my boss kind of recognized that I had a knack for it. And then I really liked it. So she asked me if if she paid for me to have the Adobe Suite of somewhere if I would take the time to actually learn it. And I said, Sure. So she bought the software for me. And I watched a bunch of YouTube videos, used Google a lot. Bunch of tutorials, and just taught myself Yeah, and started doing wedding invites for friends on the side and just little things like that. And then in June of last year, I started more and creative.

Jenna Redfield 2:26

Yeah. And how do you? what point did you said I could make a business like a real business out of this?

Laura Anne Creative 2:31

Sure. So we have my husband and I have some good friends that have a children's speech therapy business, okay. And they were in need of a logo and brochures. And so I started doing some of that for them. And then as their business grew, they also needed banner designs for trade shows. And okay, I continue to design for them. And she actually the the owner of that business kind of encouraged me. Yeah. And said, You know, I think you can do that. Yeah, you wanted?

Jenna Redfield 2:58

Did you ever think about that becoming an entrepreneur?

Laura Anne Creative 3:01

No. I'm super Taipei, and I like stability. And I like,

like routine and structure and what's predictable. So I never would have thought I would be an entrepreneur, but I just kind of kept following my passion.

Jenna Redfield 3:17

Yeah. And it's interesting, cuz I think you've changed a lot. Even since we first met. I was like, I felt like you were very shy and very, like, I feel like maybe uncomfortable only totally. And I feel like you've gotten a lot more confident over time. And I feel like, you've just learned a lot too. Oh, yeah, I know, last year, and I feel like, you definitely have a really good skill. And I think you were in our best of awards, too. Yeah,

Laura Anne Creative 3:43

that was crazy.

Jenna Redfield 3:44

Yeah, that's exciting. Well, and like I saw your name in the nominations. And I'm like, she's, like, really put her name out there in the last year with a lot of the people in our group and just like on Instagram, and, and I think it's really cool. So how do you like, so when you first started, how did you find clients? Because your work full time,

Laura Anne Creative 4:02

right? Yep. So to be honest, the the Twin Cities collective was a huge a huge thing for me just getting in there. And I think getting my name out. And then I just email people, I hope people I such people, right? You know, I mean, I was little nervous to do that. But to be honest, most people responded and either said, you know, we'll keep you in mind. But I got probably three clients just from that. And then from there, word of mouth,

Jenna Redfield 4:29

that's, I always struggle putting myself in like doing those emails, what did you say to them?

Laura Anne Creative 4:34

You know, usually, I would take a look most of those on Instagram. So I would take a look at their feed and just say, Hey, I really love what you're doing. I kind of looked for businesses that I felt that I could support or felt passionate about. And then I just said, I really love what you're doing. And if you ever need branding, I would love to collaborate with you on Yeah, really short, really sweet.

Jenna Redfield 4:55

I think people are don't realize that they need it. That's the one thing right. And so I think think having you in their inbox, and not being aggressive about it, being like, Oh, your your stuff sucks. And I want to fix it, you know, like you have to Minnesotans are very much like, we don't like to step on each other's toes too much. And we kind of but it's then sometimes it's hard for us to even put ourselves out there because we're so like, boxed off. Right. Right. So it's good that you did that. And was that like, for a really low price at first? or How?

Laura Anne Creative 5:25

Yeah, at the very beginning, I was just charging, you know, a couple hundred dollars for a logo design just because, you know, I didn't have much of a portfolio yet. And mainly, I just wanted the experience and build my portfolio. And then as times gone on, I've been able to increase my pricing. Yeah,

Jenna Redfield 5:40

I think that's really important. Because there are some people that, you know, are looking for, like the discounts at first. And it's like, that's why it's like when you find someone talented, who's at the beginning, you're like, you got it perfect, right rabbit because it's like, you know that they're going to eventually up their prices and things and just blow up. And I think that I always am good at spotting those. So it's like, I'm like, Oh, I need to like get into you actually did my logo for my Oh, yeah. And that was so cool. Because I felt like I was like, Oh my gosh, I get to actually like, go through the logo experience, which is fine. And then also we'll talk about shirts later on. But I think that's so interesting. So when you do work with your clients, like what's your process? How do you how do they sign up? How to how do you meet with them? What's kind of your like, design process?

Laura Anne Creative 6:23

Sure. So I usually will get an inquiry or a message on Instagram. I like to sit down face to face over coffee or something if we can, just because I feel like that gives me a really good idea of their personality. And we can actually talk about their brand in depth. I also send all my clients a branding questionnaire that kind of goes over. Do you have any existing brand guidelines? If you were going to describe your brand and three words, what would they be? Stuff like that. And then I come up with some initial concepts. And then we collaborate together and we go back and forth until we get something that they love.

Jenna Redfield 6:59

And when we design the shirts, I guess we're talking about now, you like I guess my question, even when that when we were working together, I was like, how do you come up with all these ideas? Like there was so many options that you gave me that were all very different, but all similar kind of to what I had asked him of you. So I, I wonder how do you come up with so many different things?

Laura Anne Creative 7:18

You know, sometimes I start off, and I'm just staring at this blank canvas in Illustrator. But once I get a couple things going and I play around with different fonts, I just, I don't know, you just kind of keep playing things. I mean, I try a lot of things where it's like, well, that's that's not gonna work. But sometimes some of the mistakes almost turn out to be

Jenna Redfield 7:39

their almost idea. Yeah. Because what I've learned is that the first draft is never the best. For sure. Right? I think I mostly designed in Canada as like how you started. And I they do have templates, which is really nice, right? And I look at some of them, and I can tell right away, like, that's not what I was going for. So then you look another template, or you maybe customize a template. And then finally you're like, Okay, this is more of what, what I needed. And I think compare, like just trying different things and seeing which kind of which direction you want to go is like such an important ones. I think, for you, you do also like revisions from different, like, drafts. So people give you feedback. How does that work?

Laura Anne Creative 8:18

Right? So usually I'll design three initial logo concepts or something like that, or I'll give them three initial color palette ideas. And then I go through two to three rounds of revisions, where they come back and they say, Oh, I really like this one. But I like the font better from design be Yeah. And then I can kind of play around and make tweaks as needed.

Jenna Redfield 8:38

That makes so much sense because I think I used to do I still do it. Not very much, but custom product photography. And it was hard because it was like I was having to retake the photos every time. Right? So it was a little bit more challenging. And I got to a point I'm like, I can't do it like more than water. Because there's just so much work but I think for you like on do you use mostly illustrator? Or what do you use for your, for your like design stuff.

Laura Anne Creative 9:03

I work primarily in Illustrator, I do a little bit of InDesign work. Okay, designing brochures, but for the most part illustrators what I work

Jenna Redfield 9:09

with, because I feel like once you can, you can make, you know, font changes very quickly in that and stuff with registering. So how hard was it to learn some of those programs? I feel like there's so much more complicated in Canada.

Laura Anne Creative 9:22

Yeah. So Photoshop, for me is just still a beast. That's one that I'm really working on right now. I would say once you get in there, a lot of them are similar. Yeah, they're they're somewhat intuitive, almost like if you open up a Word document, you start typing, you know, changing fonts and font sizes is fairly easy. But some of the more graphic things where you're doing like clipping masks, and just different stuff like that to get certain effects. Like if you want to make something look distressed. That stuff is where I had to watch videos over and over again until I can master let's

Jenna Redfield 9:57

talk about that. Because I A lot of people don't know this about me. I taught myself through like YouTube, like on everything. Like it's just it's a wealth of knowledge. And I feel like most people are like asking me, I'm like, have you googled it? You know, like, there's so many things, you can find that right, Google. And it's like, we live in an era where everything is within reach. And it's like, if you can't figure something out, I'm sure somebody has had the same issue before. Absolutely. So how did you find what you need? Like, because that's the thing about Photoshop and Illustrator, there's all these terms that I'm like, I took a class right before I started college on like Illustrator and Photoshop. So this is like 10 years ago. And I still was confused after this class, because there's so many of these terms I'd never heard before. So how did you like, know what you needed to learn? Sure. So to be honest, I didn't know any of the term. Yeah.

Laura Anne Creative 10:47

So I just would maybe I look at an example of something that I wanted to replicate that effect. And you know, if it was, like how to turn a good example, like gradient? Yeah, you know, maybe I didn't even know that the term was gradient. Yeah, I would just google how to fade a photo into the background.

Jenna Redfield 11:08

And then it'll show that in,

Laura Anne Creative 11:10

search through them enough you find them. And then I did use something called Cutlass plus, which is just a bunch of graphic design. You've never heard of the tutorials school. So I use that a lot. Yeah,

Jenna Redfield 11:21

I know. There's like skill share. And there's all these like other websites to that you can lend actually, if you go the library and get Linda for free. Right? There's like so many amazing things. So let's talk a little bit about what, what is branding to you in terms of the visual branding, we've talked about branding on here, beyond just visuals in terms of like your, your message and your storytelling. Let's talk about like actual visual branding. What like a style guide, what would you consider like having your website or business branded?

Laura Anne Creative 11:48

What does that mean? Sure. So for my clients, it includes multiple logo variations, your colors, your fonts, and then it's also your imagery. I don't provide images, but it's it's helping them yeah. Okay. You've got warm colors. So your photos? Are you warm? Or if one of your core colors like for me one of my core colors is a mustard yellow. Yeah. So if in my photos, I can pull out pops of mustard yellow. Yeah, that just fits my

Jenna Redfield 12:18

right. Yeah, I haven't told you this. But I actually use your Instagram in our workshops as an example. Yeah, cuz I was like, I use it as a as a graphic design example of someone who uses more graphics and photos, because I needed someone who's like, consistent with their brand colors. And I'm like, if you're a brand design a, you're showing off more of your like work as a branded logo. So you do that. But you also then show you pictures, which I think also fit into your so like when I go to your your account, I know it's you because of your brand color. So you're very good at branding yourself. So So if somebody starting a business, and they've never done all this before, what so as you start with the logo, or how do you start, we start with the colors, when you're working with people I do, I think

Laura Anne Creative 13:03

of the font and the color is is the foundation to our brand. And I usually recommend anywhere from five to seven colors. Yes, we might not know, they might only use three of them for the most part. But yes, they have some variety, for sure. And then I recommend two to three fonts. And once you have those, then you can kind of build the logo based on that

Jenna Redfield 13:24

I had my brand new done by Ali young designer, and she's been on the podcast long, long time ago. But we I learned so much just working with her about how important it is the certain things that you need to know when they work with you about what you're looking for. And also just like the idea of fonts, I read a book, it's called, like, what the font or something like it's like about like typography and I for some point of my life, I was really interested in that. And you know, people don't like I always asked, I'm like, Oh, do you have a serif or sans serif font that says write a question and people like that is so what what kind of are the things that you choose? When you're looking for fonts? with someone like I usually have like one Sarah and one Sarah, Sarah with with each person? Is that something you also do? Or is it like kind of the same style with the multiple different variations of fonts?

Laura Anne Creative 14:13

totally depends on the client. I think that a sound serafina Sarah if they do pair very well together, typically. But I've also had clients where it's just, you know, maybe a really thick sans serif and then a thinner.

Jenna Redfield 14:26

Can you explain what the differences? Sure.

Laura Anne Creative 14:29

So a Sarah font is the one that's got my, what would call feet on it? So it's it's like the Times New Roman?

Jenna Redfield 14:37

Yeah, it's got a little like, accent thingy at the end of it.

Laura Anne Creative 14:40

Yep. Um, and that's, you know, I'm going to be really classic, timeless looking fonts. And then your Sans Serif fonts are the ones that don't have any of those feet. A little accents on them. So that's like a colbrie.

Jenna Redfield 14:56

Yeah, poor area. Area. I use railway. Get. Baskerville is my Sarah.

Laura Anne Creative 15:02

Good parents. Yeah. So that's,

Jenna Redfield 15:05

yeah. So and then and then also at the color palette? sometimes having like, different variations of the same shade to sometimes what how do you choose? How do you even think of the color palette? Is it based off of the client? How do you do that?

Laura Anne Creative 15:19

Sometimes clients will come with, you know, I have to have to, and then I'll work around that if that's what they want. But usually I take into consideration their brand questionnaire, and if they say, My ideal client is a, you know, 18 year old female. And it's a makeup line, I might consider putting pink Yeah, like a soft pink.

Jenna Redfield 15:42

And you have to think more about your audience than you have to about your own personal preference. Right. When I was doing my business journal designs, I went off of my interest. And then with twins this collective I was thinking solely on my audience. I wanted to be gender neutral with the great insights why we chose green because I was like that it's a very nature filled call. I mean, yeah, like we literally, I think maybe you do this to you do like Pinterest board type stuff where you like, inspiration, brand boards and

Laura Anne Creative 16:11

my board. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about what those are? And kind of if your clients use them, or how do you create them? Sure. So sometimes, I'll have a client if we're having a difficult time kind of coming up with a vision. I'll just have them go on Pinterest. Yeah, and pull 20 photos that they feel like has textures or colors or a feel to it that they feel like fits their brand mood. And that way I can kind of look at that and pull common colors I can pull out kind of Yeah,

Jenna Redfield 16:41

that makes so much sense. We're going to take a real quick break with Laura and we'll be right back. This week's episode of the Twin Cities collective podcast is sponsored by Leah Turner of Keller Williams Realty elite. Are you looking for a realtor to guide you through the process of buying or selling real estate? LEAH has worked in the real estate industry since 1996. She works a lot with first time homebuyers, especially single women buying the loan for the first time. She understands that everyone is different and wants to learn the needs of her clients so she can guide them towards their goals. She will help you find a home or sell your current one in a way that works for you. She will be there through the whole process and answer your questions. Leah is more like a consultant than a traditional salesperson. She knows that when you choose a real estate agent, you want to pick someone you trust and that you like many agents have the same training and years of experience. But the difference is the actual person doing the work with you. You can see that difference when you work with Leah. Some text messages from her recent buyers say thank you for everything you are amazing and fully dedicated to making dreams come true. And I didn't know buying a house was going to be this easy. If you want to connect with Leah and see how she can help you with your real estate dreams. head to www dot next move with Leah dot com. Now back to the podcast.

We're back with Laura. So let's talk a little bit about your kind of journey to you started your business and it was completely on the side hustling now you're going down to part time at your job because you're doing so well. How was side hustling and kind of what was your experience been like with that?

Laura Anne Creative 18:25

So when I started last June, I told my husband that I would be you know, thrilled if I got one client and the next year. Yeah. And then that one client quickly turned into four and five and then six. Yeah. So it really surpassed my expectations. And then it got pretty crazy. Trying to do both. Yeah, but I think doing the side hustle is a great way to get started. You don't have to just drop, you know, your job and your consistent income. You can you can do it on the side. And you can be kind of scrappy when you first start. And then when you feel like you're ready and you've saved up a nest egg then yeah. And what point did you decide to go down part time? I think for me, it was just the point was every night I was working. And so just hours wise, it was too much. And so fortunately, I have a really great boss that was really supportive. And she said, sure to going down to part time.

Jenna Redfield 19:17

Yeah, I've done that before too in the past. So how do you also decide on your pricing? Because I know, we've talked about this, and you know, it's scary to up your pricing. But I know you've had to for because of you know, demand and also just your value? How does that work

Laura Anne Creative 19:33

for you? Sure. So like I said earlier, you know, when I, when I first started, I was just trying to build my portfolio. But then as I've gained experience and built my portfolio, I increased my prices. And I also just kind of look at what the market. Yeah, right is for sure. But I also want to make sure I'm affordable, too.

Jenna Redfield 19:49

Yeah, I think that's so important. That's why I'm really excited. We're going to explain a little bit more, but we're gonna, we're gonna be working together on some packages. But I think for me, I don't ever want to be 200 reach for people. Right? Exactly. It's like, it's like you, there's people that just want to only work for like high end clients. And so they'll like up their prices a bunch. And I'm just like, I just never felt like that's my target. Right? I like working with small businesses. So for me, that's kind of where my heart has been. And that's what I feel like today's collective is for is for those new businesses, startup businesses, small businesses, maybe they've been in business for a while, but they're still small, maybe it's a restaurant or something. And they just, you know, they need help with social media or, you know, branding, I think, I always talk about branding I because I realized over time, when I first started doing all this stuff like blogging and stuff, I did not know what branding, right, and I'm sure a lot of people still don't, but for me just meeting a lot of brand designers and and having it done for myself that like it made me realize how how important it is. So let's talk a little bit about like, if you're needing help with branding, how do you decide if it's something you should invest in?

Laura Anne Creative 20:53

Sure, it's a good question. So, you know, I think a lot of people when they first start out, they'll maybe design their own and work or though they'll buy a really inexpensive one on Etsy, you know, on the first running out have to be a little bit scrappy, and that's fine. And I think a lot of my clients come to me when they hit the point where they're like, you know, I'm not really feeling proud of my brand, I'm getting enough clients where I'm handing out a business card, or they're going to a website, and I'm embarrassed of what I'm putting out there. And I think they just decided it's time to invest in their business, and they're going to take it seriously and invest in them. So

Jenna Redfield 21:27

is it like a year in? or How long are they usually doing their business for?

Laura Anne Creative 21:32

It's all across the board. Okay, at least the clients I've had, I think I think it just comes down to that point where they actually start seeing some growth in their business. And I feel like man, you know, people are actually looking at this website, so maybe I'll make sure it looks professional. And

Jenna Redfield 21:46

Paul, what are some other things that people need, like business cards, you mentioned brochures, what are some of the like, physical things that you helped create, as well?

Laura Anne Creative 21:55

Yeah, I've done patterns that will go on tissue paper, if it's, you know, maybe like a boutique or something I've done. Like stickers. Okay. Again, oh, yeah. Yeah, you know, packaging. I've done trade show booth designs. Yeah, I mean, really anything, I think, yeah, a lot of people just need the stuff for their website and their Instagram. But there's a lot of other things you can do to

Jenna Redfield 22:19

I was really proud of myself, because I actually designed the step and repeat that I bought. I saw that. Yeah, I like, I know, I it took me I'm not getting three days to figure out how to do it. Because they had a template. And I just had to like, repeat my my logo, right? Like, I could do this. I have illustrator I can like, but just to get it lined up. Like me so long. I'm like, I'm kind of embarrassed how long I was like, I should have just like, hired somebody. But I was like, I was proud of myself that I did it. But But um, so one of the things that we did worked on together was our shirts, which was so fun. What was that? expect? Have you ever done shirts before? Um, I think yours were my first shirt. And then I've done one for yourself. Yeah. Yeah. And so how did that go? Like I was your first time probably selling a product back?

Laura Anne Creative 23:03

Yeah, no, it was it was really fun. It was just something where I designed a Minnesota floral pattern just for fun. And a bunch of my friends said, Well, I need to put that on a shirt and I want to buy it. So I so I did. And it was

Jenna Redfield 23:15

fun. How is it different designing for a shirt than it is for anything else? Or is it just the same?

Laura Anne Creative 23:21

Um, you know, it just depends on what what size you have to take consideration how much space Do you want it to take up on the shirt? What color is the shirt going to be stuff like that. But

Jenna Redfield 23:31

we decided originally it was going to be black design. And then we change it over to white on the color. Yeah, which I thought was very, like, I was trying to think I actually did polls in the group to see which ones people like to have her and it seemed like white on a darker color was. So that was interesting for me, I had never sold a shirt before. So that was new for me. And it was interesting. I just I feel like I learned so much from that experience and all of the, there's so much work that goes into selling a product that has designs on it. Is there anything that you're planning on working on the future for your own branding, like when it comes to more shirts or anything like that.

Laura Anne Creative 24:06

So I have had a few requests on some of the designs, I've done Instagram, I've had messages of people asking me to do shirts. So that's something I'm thinking about. But we'll see,

Jenna Redfield 24:16

I think that could be a second part of your business. So So let's talk a little bit about what we're going to be offering with, we still kind of haven't quite figured out everything. But I wanted to have Laura come on here also because we are going to be working together with some branding packages. Because if you don't know I do mostly Instagram strategy coaching, as well as I also do photography. And those are the things that you don't offer. Were coming in. And I also I always been so like, feel like I can't offer everything because I don't have the branding. And I will send people away to brand designers, and then hope they come back. Right, right. So we're going to be coming together. So if you guys are interested, and you're starting a business, you need help with Graham, you need help with your maybe your website, photos, some of your Instagram photos, as well as obviously getting your logo, your you know, I think everyone should not just get a logo, they should do the full style guy. And I know you offer like the smaller ones, which is just a logo. And then you also offer the with the style guide. And then you offer more like expand and you can do a website once you

Laura Anne Creative 25:19

have kind of three.

Jenna Redfield 25:20

Yes. So I mean, that's kind of something that we're going to figure out like, which ones will offer but I think that it's going to be so cool. So that you'll get it all in one, right?

Laura Anne Creative 25:29

Yeah, yeah, really good. And I

Jenna Redfield 25:31

yeah, so I definitely wanted to so I'm going to be linking all that stuff with all the information in this episode, we'll have it more solidified by the time this comes out. But I definitely just wanted to mention that if you are like, Oh my gosh, I need all this, you know, all this stuff that we just talked about. I think that's going to be a really valuable thing. And we'll try to obviously keep it affordable so that you're not like spending $10,000 to get which I mean, that's the thing that I've actually seen is like, I just think a lot of people overcharge. Oh, yeah, you know, and it's like, at the same time you it's like, sure you're valuable, but at the same time, it's like what planet you like, just like swindling people?

Unknown Speaker 26:05

Yeah.

Jenna Redfield 26:06

Because I feel like sometimes people don't know what, you know, maybe they haven't looked in and shopped around, right. And they don't know. You know, given something I feel like that, to me is like, I get really upset about that. So let's talk a little bit about Instagram, because you have your own Instagram, we talked about a little bit. How did you get started on there? Was that is that your main platform for marketing yourself?

Laura Anne Creative 26:26

Yeah, that's really the only thing I'm on. Yeah, I have a Facebook but I don't

Jenna Redfield 26:30

know. on it. It's mostly just like to tag

Laura Anne Creative 26:32

Yeah, Instagram's where I've gotten most of my, my business through, actually. And

Jenna Redfield 26:36

I feel like it's great. Because you, you really are clear that what you're doing, like you show your designs and everything. I think that's so cool. So one of the things that will be offering is just strategy with that because I feel like a lot of businesses, that's a such a great way to to market yourself on Instagram. So awesome. Well, I think we're kind of summing up everything. Is there anything else that you want to talk about today? Okay, well, thank you guys so much. This is kind of a shorter conversation, but we'll definitely hope I want to do some videos with you, I think will be so fun. So if you guys want to connect with Laura, how do we find you online?

Laura Anne Creative 27:12

I'm at Instagram at Laura, and creative

Jenna Redfield 27:17

and honest you're on Facebook. Yeah. And then what's your website? It's

Laura Anne Creative 27:20

Laura and creative again. yep.com

Jenna Redfield 27:21

Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming out to studio America. Today has been so fun. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Thanks for listening to the Twin Cities collective podcast with Jenna Redfield. Make sure to click subscribe if you haven't already. And make sure to leave us a review on iTunes. Thanks again for Ian at Studio Americana for producing this episode, as well as Melanie Lee for designing the podcast art and thanks to Nikolai had less for the use of the song in the intros outros. Thanks so much again, and I'll see you next time.