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The topic of Demi Gods is certainly confusing, when getting my AA degree I had to take 2 courses of Humanities. I choose Forums and Foundation, both of which largely goes into Greek Art. In Campione, the definition of Gods don't really have any distinctions from Fully fledged to half or Demi. As long as the beings are born from Myths, they are Gods either way such as recently the Arthurian Mythology in vol 9 and 10. Many Gods in Campione seen thus far stem from Rome, one of the longest running Empire and known as one of the most diversify of sharing cultures such beings like Perseus and Athena will have other routes in them. There are a lot of Myths associated with them in different cultures, but not only Rome but other places as well. Such as Verethragna having routes or origins associated with Indra, Vishnu, Horus, Ares, Vahagn, Hercules, and more. Athena can be trace back to the Egyptian God Neith, Minerva, and to some Myths even Medusa. Perseus also stem from many Gods as well. So Gore17, the rabbit hole goes quite deep. If the author goes into Hindu, then it will seriously have many Myths stemming from others since it is considered the Longest running religion as well third biggest in the world. It also have many sub religions in it such as Buddhism, Agamic, and yeah.........that is a long list there......not typing all of that. So in short, there are many Myths associated with a single God. If your question was can a Campione be so powerful to be believed as a God, than maybe but not clear. If so, we may have gotten our answer already from other characters such as Pandora and other Gods who been around certainly a lot longer yet they haven't spoken a word of it.

The topic of Demi Gods is certainly confusing, when getting my AA degree I had to take 2 courses of Humanities. I choose Forums and Foundation, both of which largely goes into Greek Art. In Campione, the definition of Gods don't really have any distinctions from Fully fledged to half or Demi. As long as the beings are born from Myths, they are Gods either way such as recently the Arthurian Mythology in vol 9 and 10. Many Gods in Campione seen thus far stem from Rome, one of the longest running Empire and known as one of the most diversify of sharing cultures such beings like Perseus and Athena will have other routes in them. There are a lot of Myths associated with them in different cultures, but not only Rome but other places as well. Such as Verethragna having routes or origins associated with Indra, Vishnu, Horus, Ares, Vahagn, Hercules, and more. Athena can be trace back to the Egyptian God Neith, Minerva, and to some Myths even Medusa. Perseus also stem from many Gods as well. So Gore17, the rabbit hole goes quite deep. If the author goes into Hindu, then it will seriously have many Myths stemming from others since it is considered the Longest running religion as well third biggest in the world. It also have many sub religions in it such as Buddhism, Agamic, and yeah.........that is a long list there......not typing all of that. So in short, there are many Myths associated with a single God. If your question was can a Campione be so powerful to be believed as a God, than maybe but not clear. If so, we may have gotten our answer already from other characters such as Pandora and other Gods who been around certainly a lot longer yet they haven't spoken a word of it.

Heh, this is one of the reason's I like this series, it acknowledges how myths change, spread and fuse. Though my comment on the rabbit hole was simply me acknowledging how complicated and far reaching this topic goes, especially when you consider that some of the myths and legends might have really happened, or how myths might have fused due to association with a Campione.

, there's zero chance Godou could win against any god,berserk or otherwise.

You forgot the innate extreme luck that all campione possess. Basically, there should be no way for a human, no matter how strong they are, to beat gods, but these extremely lucky individual called campiones manage to do so without any authorities whatsoever, just plain extreme luck and mental strength to imagine them winning the fight. If Godou manage to defeat a god back when he doesn't have any authorities, what make him has zero chance now that he has one(in 10 forms) now?

Huh, that last point is something I didn't think about, but it would make sense. How deep does this rabbit hole go~?

As for Demi-gods, it appears that Hime-Miko are descendants of Divine Ancestors, so it certainly doesn't rule out the possibility of Heretic Gods having children with humans. Though they would probably be sexual deviants or view it as using a toy.

Divine Ancestors are not gods. They WERE gods. They lost that status and power and degenerated into the form they possess.Although, they can turn into gods temporarily, but that will kill them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kuroishinigami

You forgot the innate extreme luck that all campione possess. Basically, there should be no way for a human, no matter how strong they are, to beat gods, but these extremely lucky individual called campiones manage to do so without any authorities whatsoever, just plain extreme luck and mental strength to imagine them winning the fight. If Godou manage to defeat a god back when he doesn't have any authorities, what make him has zero chance now that he has one(in 10 forms) now?

There's only so much luck can help you.If the extreme luck of campiones is present in every situation, they wouldn't have been slaughtered every round by the Last King whenever that guy is present. Can't believe you used that as a reason why Godou would win without his trump cards.They only reason he won was because V-tan was already weakened in the fight against Melqart. In addition, he did have an authority back then. He has the possession of the horse via Prometheus' tablet.

There's only so much luck can help you.If the extreme luck of campiones is present in every situation, they wouldn't have been slaughtered every round by the Last King whenever that guy is present. Can't believe you used that as a reason why Godou would win without his trump cards.They only reason he won was because V-tan was already weakened in the fight against Melqart. In addition, he did have an authority back then. He has the possession of the horse via Prometheus' tablet.

What I was implying was, even though it's not certain at all, he could still win, which mean the chance is not zero, unlike people not born with campione disposition. i'm not implying all campiones is invincible because of their luck, mind you, just that they have a much higher chance to win even against opponents that overpower them.

The prometheus tablet was also part of his luck IMO. It was luck that he met V-san while V-san is still sane it was luck that he decide to befriend v-san, and it was also his luck that v-san decide to help him by sealing the stallion inside prometheus instead of killing it normally. Beside, now he can use 10 times more power, so that doesn't disprove my point that he's stronger now compared to when he beat v-san.

As for Melqart, AFAIK, it was Godou idea that entice Melqart to join the fight by saying that was the only way for Melqart to not be killed by the almost fully recovered v-san, which is also what I think why Pandora still grant Godou v-san power even though he doesn't defeat v-san on his own.

As for last king, we still doesn't know what his actual power is so I won't comment yet on why he's able to beat campiones effortlessly. But so far, the story has explicitly stated several times that these people called campiones aren't normal, even when the situation is against them, sometimes they will still be able to find a way to win.

What I was implying was, even though it's not certain at all, he could still win, which mean the chance is not zero, unlike people not born with campione disposition. i'm not implying all campiones is invincible because of their luck, mind you, just that they have a much higher chance to win even against opponents that overpower them.

The prometheus tablet was also part of his luck IMO. It was luck that he met V-san while V-san is still sane it was luck that he decide to befriend v-san, and it was also his luck that v-san decide to help him by sealing the stallion inside prometheus instead of killing it normally. Beside, now he can use 10 times more power, so that doesn't disprove my point that he's stronger now compared to when he beat v-san.

As for Melqart, AFAIK, it was Godou idea that entice Melqart to join the fight by saying that was the only way for Melqart to not be killed by the almost fully recovered v-san, which is also what I think why Pandora still grant Godou v-san power even though he doesn't defeat v-san on his own.

Well then, point me to the time where Godou managed to defeat a god without using the golden sword apart from V-tan. The golden sword is the only reason why Godou has been winning so far. The point is, he's been beaten up every time he goes into a fight without using the golden sword.

None, because there hasn't been a need to so far because the golden sword is still effective. It's like telling people to endanger himself by using sword in a fight when he has a perfectly usable gun. But, you still can't deny the possibility that he can do it because the golden sword is usually not his finishing move. If he can make use of the situation like when he fight v-san, he should still be able to kill god using the stallion.

Edit : BTW, although he basically use the golden sword, but during the fight against Luo Hao, the sword isn't the decisive factor that decide the battle. He was still able to beat Luo Hao that still have an authority(which means she's still as strong, if not stronger than some Heretic Gods) left using his remaining power.

None, because there hasn't been a need to so far because the golden sword is still effective. It's like telling people to endanger himself by using sword in a fight when he has a perfectly usable gun. But, you still can't deny the possibility that he can do it because the golden sword is usually not his finishing move. If he can make use of the situation like when he fight v-san, he should still be able to kill god using the stallion.

Have you even read my post clearly? There were A LOT of times when the golden sword was rendered ineffective or unusable. The end result was Godou getting beaten up or even KILLED. The golden sword is not his finishing move, but it definitely was the trump card. It was the single thing that rendered the other campione or gods' power unusable or even harm them. Without using the golden sword, he had been overpowered by the abilities of his opponents time after time. Most of the time, his existing abilities gets overpowered by the other campione or god without cancelling his enemy's power. The golden sword is significant in that it provided the opportunity for Godou to overwhelm his enemies with his other abilities which is otherwise impossible. You do understand why Godou and co. bothered spending a significant amount of time trying to figure out the name of their opponent, right?And no, I told you, I situation like the one with V-tan isn't even a fair fight. It's a bloody assassination.

Actually, I was just pointing out the fact that supernatural beings that are on a level higher then humanity ended up breeding with humans.

And of the topic of the Sword business: has he fused it with the Ame no Murakumo? If not, I wonder if it would be possible permanently charge it with a less effective version of the Sword.*

Actually, does Godou need to speak the Spell-Words in the presence of a God? Couldn't he do all that before he fights the God, when possible?

*Note: I'm not entirely sure on how the Ame no Murakumo works, so clarification would be greatly appreciated.

Well, technically, they are just supernatural beings that are on a higher level than most humans. Paolo Brandelli, Alec's knight and Salvatore's masters are equal, if not a bit more stronger than the Divine Ancestors. But I understand what you meant. It's uncertain rather Heretic Gods can produce offsprings with humans,since they may be too different from Divine Ancestors even though Divine Ancestors were gods, but Divine Ancestors most certainly can.

Actually, does Godou need to speak the Spell-Words in the presence of a God? Couldn't he do all that before he fights the God, when possible?

*Note: I'm not entirely sure on how the Ame no Murakumo works, so clarification would be greatly appreciated.

My guess is the spell words only have effect when he is using the [Warrior], as only in that incarnation he can use his [Sword]. Don't forget he has his once-a-day and time limitation , him using the [Warrior] before fighting a god is just wasted time.
He's mostly using his sword when he feels like he could land a hit with it, using your trump card right at the beginning is a bad idea, especially when everything is still uncertain.

I just realise that the golden sword can't be use other then fighting a god or a person who use god power (Campione).

BTW what is the benefits of using [Warrior] other then the ability to use [Sword]?
And since [Sword] is a skill of [Warrior] and it not one of the 10 incarnation, do you think the author would allow Godou to create other skills in [Warrior] mode, maybe like [Spear], [Shield] or [Axe], like the type of weapons a warrior would use?

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Have you even read my post clearly? There were A LOT of times when the golden sword was rendered ineffective or unusable. The end result was Godou getting beaten up or even KILLED. The golden sword is not his finishing move, but it definitely was the trump card. It was the single thing that rendered the other campione or gods' power unusable or even harm them. Without using the golden sword, he had been overpowered by the abilities of his opponents time after time. Most of the time, his existing abilities gets overpowered by the other campione or god without cancelling his enemy's power. The golden sword is significant in that it provided the opportunity for Godou to overwhelm his enemies with his other abilities which is otherwise impossible. You do understand why Godou and co. bothered spending a significant amount of time trying to figure out the name of their opponent, right?And no, I told you, I situation like the one with V-tan isn't even a fair fight. It's a bloody assassination.

Sorry, take me through your logic again. Godou can't win if his golden sword is unusable -> A lot of times his golden sword is unusable -> Godou still win in the end by using the golden sword. Is there something wrong from what I perceive on your logic or the golden sword is not really ineffective, but only the enemy got something to avoid the strike of the golden sword, which mean it's not that the golden sword being ineffective to the enemy(as in it doesn't work even if it strike) but more that Godou just doesn't have enough info on the enemy to strike with the sword?

For analogy, let's assume that Godou's golden sword is the sniper rifle which can kill, or at least crippled the enemy from attacking, his other power is a bomb with the same range as the enemy weapon. He shot with the sniper rifle first, and by surprise, the enemy got a magic shield that protect him from the sniper rifle bullet or make the bullet miss and somehow manage to retaliate back and injure Godou. Should Godou retreat for a while and find a way to bypass the magic shield first or go straight to using his bomb and risking double K.O? Of course the safer first one is the more logical choice right? Because if the first choice doesn't work, than you can still do the second choice as a last resort, yet so far the first choice has always work for Godou so far(he manage to win in the end, whether with help from his friend or something else).

This is what I meant by there's no need for him to not use the golden sword so far, because the golden sword still works, it just need a few workaround to make it hit the enemy(through kiss-kiss time or other things). If after this volume, we're going to be introduced to an enemy where the golden sword doesn't work(due to the nature of the enemy or something, the golden sword can't seal the enemy power even if it hit the enemy), and at that time Godou can't win and has to give up the fight, than I will concede that without golden sword, Godou has ZERO chance to win. But right now, I still stand by my opinion that Godou has SOME chance(maybe a little, but some) to win with only his innate luck and his other power beside the golden sword

Sorry, take me through your logic again. Godou can't win if his golden sword is unusable -> A lot of times his golden sword is unusable -> Godou still win in the end by using the golden sword. Is there something wrong from what I perceive on your logic or the golden sword is not really ineffective, but only the enemy got something to avoid the strike of the golden sword, which mean it's not that the golden sword being ineffective to the enemy(as in it doesn't work even if it strike) but more that Godou just doesn't have enough info on the enemy to strike with the sword?

For analogy, let's assume that Godou's golden sword is the sniper rifle which can kill, or at least crippled the enemy from attacking, his other power is a bomb with the same range as the enemy weapon. He shot with the sniper rifle first, and by surprise, the enemy got a magic shield that protect him from the sniper rifle bullet or make the bullet miss and somehow manage to retaliate back and injure Godou. Should Godou retreat for a while and find a way to bypass the magic shield first or go straight to using his bomb and risking double K.O? Of course the safer first one is the more logical choice right? Because if the first choice doesn't work, than you can still do the second choice as a last resort, yet so far the first choice has always work for Godou so far(he manage to win in the end, whether with help from his friend or something else).

This is what I meant by there's no need for him to not use the golden sword so far, because the golden sword still works, it just need a few workaround to make it hit the enemy(through kiss-kiss time or other things). If after this volume, we're going to be introduced to an enemy where the golden sword doesn't work(due to the nature of the enemy or something, the golden sword can't seal the enemy power even if it hit the enemy), and at that time Godou can't win and has to give up the fight, than I will concede that without golden sword, Godou has ZERO chance to win. But right now, I still stand by my opinion that Godou has SOME chance(maybe a little, but some) to win with only his innate luck and his other power beside the golden sword

it,s has been quite a long time since i'm here the last time but there are quite a heated argument here, 1st about how V-tan been defeated, that is because Godou luck. As Darthfanta said, he has the white horse, but he is a normal human, the fact that he has the tome and know how to use it while Erica can't is undoubtly luck due to the fact he is not even knew that the Tome condition to active, or knew that Tome is a powerful item before- so it's luck as shinigami said

2nd, the golden sword, you said that take that away from him and he can't defeat gods, wrong, he defeat the Ame no Murakumo( read back if you don't believe me and point out the part when he use the Golden sword in that fight for me)( also the fight with Sun Wukong, The sword is used to recover the people and Hikari, afterward Sunwukong eat Alsherah to recover himself and Godou continue to fight him after he recover without the sword) without the sword, that prove that Godou is capable of defeate god without the sword, true, i agree that without the golden sword, Godou chance decrased a lot but that doesn't mean he is incapable of defeat gods without it.

2nd, the golden sword, you said that take that away from him and he can't defeat gods, wrong, he defeat the Ame no Murakumo( read back if you don't believe me and point out the part when he use the Golden sword in that fight for me)( also the fight with Sun Wukong, The sword is used to recover the people and Hikari, afterward Sunwukong eat Alsherah to recover himself and Godou continue to fight him after he recover without the sword) without the sword, that prove that Godou is capable of defeate god without the sword, true, i agree that without the golden sword, Godou chance decrased a lot but that doesn't mean he is incapable of defeat gods without it.

Ame no Murakumo wasn't a god it has been referred to as many things a demigod, a divine weapon and a messenger of god but one thing they do make very clear in vol 5 chap 7 part 2 is that Ame no Murakumo abilities on it's own are far less then either gods or Campiones.

2nd, the golden sword, you said that take that away from him and he can't defeat gods, wrong, he defeat the Ame no Murakumo( read back if you don't believe me and point out the part when he use the Golden sword in that fight for me)( also the fight with Sun Wukong, The sword is used to recover the people and Hikari, afterward Sunwukong eat Alsherah to recover himself and Godou continue to fight him after he recover without the sword) without the sword, that prove that Godou is capable of defeate god without the sword, true, i agree that without the golden sword, Godou chance decrased a lot but that doesn't mean he is incapable of defeat gods without it.

The fight with Sun Wukong wasn't even fair. It was a 3 v 1. You do realize that the subordinate gods he has are counted as his powers, right? It's because of the unfairness of the situation that Godou did not receive any authorities after he defeated Sun Wukong.Please mind that the fights we are talking about are one vs one fights that are fair--as in both parties are undamaged prior to the fight.Like I said, stop pointing to the fight with V-tan. He doesn't have that luck anymore. The tome is gone--and neither was that fight fair either--he assassinated V-tan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kuroishinigami

Sorry, take me through your logic again. Godou can't win if his golden sword is unusable -> A lot of times his golden sword is unusable -> Godou still win in the end by using the golden sword. Is there something wrong from what I perceive on your logic or the golden sword is not really ineffective, but only the enemy got something to avoid the strike of the golden sword, which mean it's not that the golden sword being ineffective to the enemy(as in it doesn't work even if it strike) but more that Godou just doesn't have enough info on the enemy to strike with the sword?

What I meant by the golden sword being unusable or ineffective is yeah, either he didn't have enough knowledge, or his sword gets rendered ineffective in someway like in a certain volume.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kuroishinigami

For analogy, let's assume that Godou's golden sword is the sniper rifle which can kill, or at least crippled the enemy from attacking, his other power is a bomb with the same range as the enemy weapon. He shot with the sniper rifle first, and by surprise, the enemy got a magic shield that protect him from the sniper rifle bullet or make the bullet miss and somehow manage to retaliate back and injure Godou. Should Godou retreat for a while and find a way to bypass the magic shield first or go straight to using his bomb and risking double K.O? Of course the safer first one is the more logical choice right? Because if the first choice doesn't work, than you can still do the second choice as a last resort, yet so far the first choice has always work for Godou so far(he manage to win in the end, whether with help from his friend or something else).

I don't think that analogy is correct. Imagine that the enemy god are soldiers inside a fortress with powerful weapons such as artillery and tough fortification. The sword is the artillery which blows up all the enemy heavy weapons and fortifications, and his other abilities would be the machine gun which kills the enemy soldiers inside. That's my analogy. The point is that the reason why Godou doesn't use the sword right off the bat is because he doesn't have the correct knowledge of his enemy. If he had it, he would have used the golden sword the first thing he finds the magic shield instead of retreating. There were just way too many times he rushes himself into fights without trying to learn the background of the god or campione he is fighting. Like I said, if it was such a great plan(if you even insist calling it one), he wouldn't have been badly injured or even KILLED in the first place because of rushing into fights without the ability to use the sword.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kuroishinigami

This is what I meant by there's no need for him to not use the golden sword so far, because the golden sword still works, it just need a few workaround to make it hit the enemy(through kiss-kiss time or other things). If after this volume, we're going to be introduced to an enemy where the golden sword doesn't work(due to the nature of the enemy or something, the golden sword can't seal the enemy power even if it hit the enemy), and at that time Godou can't win and has to give up the fight, than I will concede that without golden sword, Godou has ZERO chance to win. But right now, I still stand by my opinion that Godou has SOME chance(maybe a little, but some) to win with only his innate luck and his other power beside the golden sword

I look forward to your answer after finished reading vol 9, because vol 9 IS THE VOLUME I WAS TALKING ABOUT!

The fight with Sun Wukong wasn't even fair. It was a 3 v 1. You do realize that the subordinate gods he has are counted as his powers, right? It's because of the unfairness of the situation that Godou did not receive any authorities after he defeated Sun Wukong.Please mind that the fights we are talking about are one vs one fights that are fair--as in both parties are undamaged prior to the fight.Like I said, stop pointing to the fight with V-tan. He doesn't have that luck anymore. The tome is gone--and neither was that fight fair either--he assassinated V-tan.

What is with this preoccupation with fairness? All that is required is a suitable victory to Pandora. Fairness isn't strictly a requirement. Otherwise Godou wouldn't have gotten an authority off Verethragna at all. It was technically a 2v1 there for a bit.

Besides, Godou is practically an infant for a campione. He had no prior experience and hes only been a campione for what, half a year? He should be at a disadvantage for the most part. Especially with such an unreliable set of powers.

What is with this preoccupation with fairness? All that is required is a suitable victory to Pandora. Fairness isn't strictly a requirement. Otherwise Godou wouldn't have gotten an authority off Verethragna at all. It was technically a 2v1 there for a bit.

Besides, Godou is practically an infant for a campione. He had no prior experience and hes only been a campione for what, half a year? He should be at a disadvantage for the most part. Especially with such an unreliable set of powers.

Fairness assesses Godou's strength in relative to his opponent. If he beats an enemy that's at his prime, then it could be classified that Godou is stronger than that enemy. If Godou kills a weakened opponent, it couldn't be said that he's stronger than that opponent. And guess what? The time of having become a campione is actually considered irrelevant. It isn't experience nor training that guides them in fights, it's instinct. Either way, the fact that he has such an unreliable set of powers is his own personal fault. As we have discussed earlier, he should have went out of his way to farm gods and get more authorities or develop his powers.

I don't think that analogy is correct. Imagine that the enemy god are soldiers inside a fortress with powerful weapons such as artillery and tough fortification. The sword is the artillery which blows up all the enemy heavy weapons and fortifications, and his other abilities would be the machine gun which kills the enemy soldiers inside. That's my analogy. The point is that the reason why Godou doesn't use the sword right off the bat is because he doesn't have the correct knowledge of his enemy. If he had it, he would have used the golden sword the first thing he finds the magic shield instead of retreating. There were just way too many times he rushes himself into fights without trying to learn the background of the god or campione he is fighting. Like I said, if it was such a great plan(if you even insist calling it one), he wouldn't have been badly injured or even KILLED in the first place because of rushing into fights without the ability to use the sword.

Well, I agree that Godou is often act quite stupid for heading head first into fights without the necessary knowledge to use the sword, and I also agree that without the sword, Godou will most likely not able to defeat the enemy without getting injured himself(hence my analogy of his other power as bomb with the same range as the enemy weapon), but what I have been trying to say is, he still might(not for sure, just has a chance) be able to defeat the enemy with just his other power and his luck, unlike normal people who has no chance at all, because he still hold the weapon to kill the enemy. All he has to think is how to make his other weapon(such as stallion, or maybe the boar) work without the enemy power interfering.

Quote:

Originally Posted by darthfanta

I look forward to your answer after finished reading vol 9, because vol 9 IS THE VOLUME I WAS TALKING ABOUT!

Hmmm.... I guess I could read the raw, but considering zzhk has been doing excellent job so far, I guess I'll just wait for the translation and clear up my other backlog instead because my English and Japanese reading speed just differ too much