I havent "bothered" reading the whole thread, but I didnt really notice anyone mentioning stealth is bugged. 95% of the time that I use stealth/shroud of concealment people can see me /my teammates and simply run up and aoe me / us out.

So if stealth is our "niche" please hotfix it ASAP so we actually use out abilities.

If stealth really is our "niche" then he should make vanish have 30 sec or only global CD ,so I can spam it all day long and have findweakness up 24/7. Or they can make so that stealth cd is 2 seconds, recuperate removes bleeds/dots/faerie fire and rogues get out of combat faster then other classes.
Until one of those happens, I don't really think we are "the stealth class" simply because our stealth is the worst in game...Every class has a way to get you out of stealth.Ferals have superior stealth due to their passive "Feral Instinct" + faerie fire is a bitch, hunters can see you from 20 yards away and you cannot do anything about it, mages are invisible so they can see you but you cant see them, and priest's Spectral Guise tooltip even says "As a shadow you are STEALTHED" but JK , you are invisible and ofc you can see rogues while they cant see you. So if stealth is really our "niche", then they really have to try harder because I am just simply not feeling it....

Homogenisation allows every class to do everything. Because rogues used to be king of utility, we are now less special than we used to be (see monks). With this idealism of homogenising classes, there are now zero advantages in taking a weaker class into arena.

Outdated mechanics: Rogues are now the only class in the game with outdated mechanics (after warrior fixes in mop). Especially with the amount of evasion/parrying/etc. that every class seems to have, it feels very helpless when another melee can tunnel me and there is nothing I can do about it.

For a class that is dependent on cooldowns, I feel rogues have some of the worst cooldowns in the game (as well as some of the best ofc.)

Actual burst: the fix to find weakness was largely due to double evisc crits on the back of MfD. The largest problem with rogue burst is that critting both nukes is very very different to hitting them. This problem is solved with many classes as their large nukes result in predictable, high damage. With a rogue it can be hard to estimate the amount of damage output. I think blades should make the characteristic SFX during subterfuge too, it's unreasonable for people to have their combat logs open 100% of the duration of an arena. Would have been a much better fix if they just made the second evisc from mfd have 0 crit chance imo.

Mana is no longer a resource for many classes. This allows many classes to mindlessly use spells with the only limiting factor being the gcd.

Energy is meaningless most of the time. I see monks/druids sit cc and regen to max energy. When they dump the energy afterwards they make a huge difference. Spamming backstab/hemo (especially if SV buff has fallen off) feels completely pointless. Also means that pooling energy is no longer important outside of dance preparation.

Arena lag is more annoying than ever. Having to use shadowstep on an opener just because your enemies can sit on their mounts running around is annoying.

Rogues are acknowledged as a support class. It feels wrong to me that a support class requires the most amount of babysitting from a healer out of any classes.

Finally it's hilarious to me that STEALTH is supposedly our specialty, since even shamans can get it through symbiosis.

Something like shadowstep on a 15 second cooldown and being able to break roots with it or something would be cool, Im doing insane damage as mutilate the problem is the mobility, and yeah obviously step and kick should be on prep.

Didn't read all of this but rogues aren't imbalanced at the moment. Other classes are retardedly overpowered.

The buff to rets, ferals and hunters have further made other classes garbage. Warriors dont que except with hunters, rogues don't que except with hunters, mages barely que or have to play fire, spriests que with ferals. Point is, rogues are in a really good spot imo, a spot that if blizzard could take a vantage point from, could lead to a game that isn't balls. If rogues stayed this "Shit" and got a little buff to sustained damage and other classes were balanced somewhere near rogues, arena would be swell.

Pointless as always to make any post about class balance because every patch is always worse than the last when it comes to balance.

The thing about rogues that I never understood which other people have mentioned, they removed the crit strike talents, Sub relys on crit, Why remove it?

The other thing is, I feel very fine as a class when I get a good opener, but just kidding I have to avoid 800 ways to get pulled out of stealth.

And is it just me or does evasion need to be reworked? It seems outdated since dodging is so rng. I got hit by every ability while some mouthbreather feral scum backpeddled and spammed damage into me with it up. it's an unreliable cd for a 3 minute cooldown I feel

Its actually fairly disconcerting that he states "stealth" as its "niche"

In reality stealth is no longer the niche for rogues. Mass stealth has given that element of "when will it pop off" but so many classes (and even a race) have access to some form of stealth which makes it seem like a very generic answer. It kind of laughed to myself its a bit like saying "melee auto attack is warriors niche" ... obviously thats an extreme, but I kind of see it as this super over simplification of a class.

Rogues need to be, seemingly, in the eyes of blizzard, evolved beyond "stealth as a niche".

Right now, druids (any of them, but lets keep it at ferals for comparison) can jump out of stealth. So what do rogues stealth offer over ferals? They aren't doing the same damage, and sure the CC is different, but its not a million miles apart.
Hunters have access to camoflage to change the way we look at the game in terms of stealth.
Hell we can even look at mage invisibility or even priest spectral guise.

Plenty of classes have a way in which they use stealth to change the method in which we view the game. But rogues do this best, so its ok? They can rely on this.

Its hard to balance a class, and generally speaking bliz seem to either over or under compensate, or blindly ignore it. They are not happy with rogues being good (5.2) so they nerf them, but happy with warriors being great for a season or hunters for two. I hate to draw in the "OP argument" but I am looking at in terms of bliz just seem to have no pattern or plan with what they aim their balance wand at.

But really my point is it that if they are so stuck in "stealth is their niche" which to me seems like vanilla way of thinking, then its a worrying statement.

Rzn and me discussed the current rogue issues, we agree on the following:

Mobility is lacking. An additional cooldown to connect on a 40-80 second cooldown would help tremendously

Damage outside of cooldowns, especially from combo points generators for subtlety and combat are doing not enough damage.

PvE gear, Human racial and engineering help rogues more (talking about subtlety) than most other classes / specs. So there is a huge difference in the burst potential between non human rogues with PvP trinkets and no engineering and Human rogues with PvE trinkets and engineering.

Rogue damage is very RNG dependant. Double Eviscerate crits (about 10% chance with procs) do insane damage, without crits the damage is lackluster. This was better handled with the Cataclysm model with a high base crit chance but lower base damage.

Rzn and me discussed the current rogue issues, we agree on the following:

Mobility is lacking. An additional cooldown to connect on a 40-80 second cooldown would help tremendously

Damage outside of cooldowns, especially from combo points generators for subtlety and combat are doing not enough damage.

PvE gear, Human racial and engineering help rogues more (talking about subtlety) than most other classes / specs. So there is a huge difference in the burst potential between non human rogues with PvP trinkets and no engineering and Human rogues with PvE trinkets and engineering.

Rogue damage is very RNG dependant. Double Eviscerate crits (about 10% chance with procs) do insane damage, without crits the damage is lackluster. This was better handled with the Cataclysm model with a high base crit chance but lower base damage.

Hunter physical root plus Flare should be nerfed.

yeah and dont forget that it fucking sucks to put on slice rupture and have a full energie bar, its hard to set up because of fucking spam ccs and very very boring to play.

Faerie fire needs a fix. With the 8 second dispell cooldown implemented in MOP, something that removes key elements of another class that already severely suffers from mobility issues needs to be addressed as well. It should have a much longer cooldown. I'm talking 20 seconds; 'smart play' should never be mashing a spammable, no cooldown focus macro on a rogue to eliminate them from using essential abilities of their class.

If spamming dispells mindlessly wasn't considered logical or 'fun' play, then faerie fire shouldn't be as well.

It means you can restealth if you move out of LoS. If it lasts 8 seconds it's only 2 seconds more than we need to get out of combat. I would not mind giving it a cooldown but it's not higher priority than the other points.

i played 3v3 on my rogue yesterday,last time i played was s8.
Was playing rmp at around 2.1 mmr, felt okay first 5 games(no hunter teams ), then all of a sudden, faced like 10-15 hunter teams in row .
Funny part is that Holinka saying ''rogues relie so much in stealth'' ,while half of games im getting hit by the hunter when im in stealth from miles away.First game i was like ok he saw me, then i realise he can knock me out of stealth every game hahaha.
And i wasnt even standing close to the hunters.....

Didn't read all of this but rogues aren't imbalanced at the moment. Other classes are retardedly overpowered.

The buff to rets, ferals and hunters have further made other classes garbage. Warriors dont que except with hunters, rogues don't que except with hunters, mages barely que or have to play fire, spriests que with ferals. Point is, rogues are in a really good spot imo, a spot that if blizzard could take a vantage point from, could lead to a game that isn't balls. If rogues stayed this "Shit" and got a little buff to sustained damage and other classes were balanced somewhere near rogues, arena would be swell.

Pointless as always to make any post about class balance because every patch is always worse than the last when it comes to balance.

no, rogues are garbage, even if u nerfed other classes ,rogues would still be bad.Im talking from a rogue point of view.
Go play rogue then ull realise how shit this class is. Waiting for 1 min cd to to the same dmg as every other class does without cds, build rupture,slice and dice, even recup, + u might end up getting peeled on ur 1 min cd and u only do dmg during that.
As rogue nowadays ur basically a stun bot, if u play with a mage or a priest u expect them to kill smthing.