The Atheist's Riddle...

oh, ok......your perception is that an animal attacking you and an intestinal virus are both evil (satanic) acts.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 406731

That is a plausible argument as well.

You can argue "God created fluffy bunnies, but the Devil created tapeworms."

Or you can be a little more subtle and say "God created fluffy bunnies, and Adam, but Adam turned out to be an ass and he let the Devil in/forced god to make tapeworms."

(A variation of the above is "Tapeworms were peaceful frolicking vegetarians until Adam fucked it up.")

Of course the whole Original Sin question has not a little of the "Can He create a rock so heavy He can't lift it?" problem. Perhaps best analogy is more of a Pygmalion myth; God wants to be honestly loved, so he creates in Man the ability to reject him. This is certainly preferable to a God that creates creatures programmed to love Him!

This all still, however, calls into question why He bothered creating a world as well. If all you need is Adam, deciding (free will) whether to love you or not, what need you, or Adam, with a complex world with its own moral challenges?

Thus, an alternate idea; God creates a world that is neither paradise nor paradise lost, but one filled with challenges. Tapeworms are there to help humans find moral choices.

But then we smack into, again, the place where I part company with organized religion. Which is, that all of these choices on Earth are treated merely as classroom exercises; as precursors to the only choice that matters.

And that final choice; to love or not love this God of yours, is to be done precisely without most of the ways or tools we use to look at everything on the Earth. It is a choice that must be made blind.

1) DNA is not merely a molecule with a pattern; it is a code, a language, and an information storage mechanism.2) All codes are created by a conscious mind; there is no natural process known to science that creates coded information.3) Therefore DNA was designed by a mind.

If you can provide an empirical example of a code or language that occurs naturally, you've toppled my proof. All you need is one.

I have heard this directly from at least two preachers, in front of their regular congregations, as part of services;

"Don't do good works. Murder, lie, steal. And just before you die, accept the Lord as your Savior. And off to Heaven you go!"

(Paraphrased -- but not as much as you might think!)

That's the hideousness of the escape clause. It absolves you from any actions taken in the world God apparently took so much effort to create; because all that really matters to Him is what happens after you are dead.

(This would seem to be contradicted by a God who was busy saving Moses and smiting Sodom and all that biz. Well, maybe it took him a while to back off from his shiny new world and really let Humans go wild on it.)

1) DNA is not merely a molecule with a pattern; it is a code, a language, and an information storage mechanism.2) All codes are created by a conscious mind; there is no natural process known to science that creates coded information.3) Therefore DNA was designed by a mind.

If you can provide an empirical example of a code or language that occurs naturally, you've toppled my proof. All you need is one.

That is all well and good but this "designer" would be just as complex or MORE complex than we are, so who designed the designer? This is the problem with theories like this, you want a sky hook instead of a bunch of small steps to explain complexity.

Random processes can duplicate the symbol systems of a code. Think of a cloud in the shape of a letter -- (or a hair on a piece of film that looks like a letter "C").

The natural world also contains symbolic abstractions that communicate information. Take the coloring on a poisonous amphibian. The coloring is not the poison, but it is an unambiguous symbol meaning "look out; poison is here!"

Of course symbolic abstractions have nothing to do with DNA. Just pointing out yet another way the point was not thought out clearly.

oh, ok......your perception is that an animal attacking you and an intestinal virus are both evil (satanic) acts.

That is a plausible argument as well.

You can argue "God created fluffy bunnies, but the Devil created tapeworms."

I'm sorry, but you were first to classify things into categories of good and evil, not me.

It actually appears that you're arguing with yourself over faceted problems that this world presents to your ego.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 406731

No, I'm trying to respond to your posts. Unfortunately you haven't given me much to understand of what point you wish to make. For that matter, it would be easier if you would pick a name -- makes it harder to figure out who is saying what.

(My "NLI" means "not logged in"; I got tired of having to log back in every few minutes on the old GLP software and just stopped trying. I am, however, a long-term registered user.)

1) DNA is not merely a molecule with a pattern; it is a code, a language, and an information storage mechanism.2) All codes are created by a conscious mind; there is no natural process known to science that creates coded information.3) Therefore DNA was designed by a mind.

If you can provide an empirical example of a code or language that occurs naturally, you've toppled my proof. All you need is one.

Comparing crystals to DNA is like comparing Tinker Toys to the guts of a Boeing 747. That's called hand-waving where I come from.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 193848

Yes, it is comparing Tinker Toys to a Jumbo Jet. And it is the furthest thing from hand-waving there is. A 20-line java app can (and usually does) include all the elements that make up a program. It is the same animal, even though the program you compare it to may be millions of lines longer.

Tinker Toys are manufactured parts designed and built to tolerances to fit together, and to operate under specific environmental stresses (summed up mostly as; "being played with.")

In comparison a great many of the parts of a 747 are not custom built, but they are in sub-assemblies that are quite custom -- as well as of course the many fabrications that are specific to not just that aircraft but that variation and the specific manufacturer and details of that particular airframe as assembled.

Do not be confused by complexity.

Besides, the analogy was not that of DNA to seed crystal or catalyst; it was of the way protein interactions are governed by a set of rules in the same way crystal formation is, or fluid dynamics, or orbital dynamics. In all of these one can find fascinatingly complex patterns arising randomly that have superficial similarities to human-created artifacts.

1) DNA is not merely a molecule with a pattern; it is a code, a language, and an information storage mechanism.2) All codes are created by a conscious mind; there is no natural process known to science that creates coded information.3) Therefore DNA was designed by a mind.

If you can provide an empirical example of a code or language that occurs naturally, you've toppled my proof. All you need is one.

What is your evidence that DNA is any of "a code, a language, and an information storage mechanism"?

You need to provide that evidence and it needs to be irrefutable or else your hypothesis falls over at the first step.

*IF* DNA is "a code", then that would prove that a code has been produced the random process of Natural Selection. Hence your hypothesis would fall over at the second step even if it did not at the first.

But if there is no Creator, how did mass and energy come into existence ??

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 412137

The fact that mass and energy exist now is evidence only that they exist now, not that they were at some fixed point in the past 'created'. There is no evidence that mass and energy were ever 'created' hence there is no evidence to support the hypothesis of their 'creator'.

1) DNA is not merely a molecule with a pattern; it is a code, a language, and an information storage mechanism.2) All codes are created by a conscious mind; there is no natural process known to science that creates coded information.3) Therefore DNA was designed by a mind.

If you can provide an empirical example of a code or language that occurs naturally, you've toppled my proof. All you need is one.

1) DNA is not merely a molecule with a pattern; it is a code, a language, and an information storage mechanism.2) All codes are created by a conscious mind; there is no natural process known to science that creates coded information.3) Therefore DNA was designed by a mind.

If you can provide an empirical example of a code or language that occurs naturally, you've toppled my proof. All you need is one.

You think inside a box looking for proof of God. Given the errors and flaws inherent in the DNA model God was more likely a committee.

Quoting: Prof-Rabbit 148352

First I can not belive that someone would compaire DNA to a crystal and second DNA was not flawed in the begining.

We who are christians understood from the Bible that someone would come and start a new world wide belief and that the people would be in ah of him and his teachings. What really botherd me was I went to the book store to buy it so I would no what we are up agenst. Not even thinking how the shop keeper of the store could be in to this. I made a few coments then she let me know she was reading it. So I talked to her like I want the book because I want to understand it. She started to talk about how it is changing her life and it was like a glaze came over her eyes and she just started going on about it. Then I asked her so do you go to church? Yes she said yes im a lutheran. I just smiled. I did not want to say anymore until I had read it. After reading it I was and am in shock. There is some really bad stuff in it that are going to decive sooooo many people. One of the most starteling statements in it is on page 21 chapter 1 EVOLVE OR DIE In the bible it says that the people who do not except the new way of thinking will be killed. hmmmmmmmmmm I know my spelling and grammer are very poor but my words are true.......................Wish We'd All Been Ready

Life was filled with guns and warand all of us got trampled on the floorI wish we'd all been ready

Children died the days grew colda piece of bread could buy a bag of goldI wish we'd all been ready

There's no time to change your mindthe Son has come and you've been left behind

A man and wife asleep in bedshe hears a noise and turns her head he's goneI wish we'd all been ready

Two men walking up a hillone disappears and one's left standing stillI wish we'd all been ready

There's no time to change your mindthe Son has come and you've been left behind

Children died the days grew colda piece of bread could buy a bag of goldI wish we'd all been ready

There's no time to change your mindthe Son has come and you've been left behind

The Father spokethe demons dinedhow could youhave been so blind

There's no time to change your mindthe Son has come and you've been left behind

I hope we'll all be readyyou've been left behindI hope we'll all be readyyou've been left behindI hope we'll all be readyyou've been left behind

1) DNA is not merely a molecule with a pattern; it is a code, a language, and an information storage mechanism.2) All codes are created by a conscious mind; there is no natural process known to science that creates coded information.3) Therefore DNA was designed by a mind.

If you can provide an empirical example of a code or language that occurs naturally, you've toppled my proof. All you need is one.

What is your evidence that DNA is any of "a code, a language, and an information storage mechanism"?

You need to provide that evidence and it needs to be irrefutable or else your hypothesis falls over at the first step.

*IF* DNA is "a code", then that would prove that a code has been produced the random process of Natural Selection. Hence your hypothesis would fall over at the second step even if it did not at the first.

Therefore your conclusion is entirely false.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 413263

I love the way religious fruitcakes just ignore difficult questions such as those I have asked above. If nothing else proves them to be a pack of devious liars, that does.