Pope visits mosque, faces Mecca, prays “meditates”

posted at 4:02 pm on November 30, 2006 by Allahpundit

I couldn’t care less but I know someone’s going to say it’s either a shocking example of dhimmitude or, if we’re really lucky, a de facto conversion to Islam. So let’s just toss it out there, get the conversation going.

He took off his shoes when he went in, too. Commence freakout:

After offending the Muslim world by linking their religion with violence, Pope Benedict XVI, in an exceptional gesture, turned towards Mecca in an attitude of Muslim prayer at the Blue Mosque in Istanbul today, Turkish state television showed…

The Pope’s spokesman, Federico Lombardi, was quick to point out to journalists afterwards that the Pope had not actually prayed but was “in meditation”.

After explaining the basics of Muslim prayer to the pontiff during the early part of the tour, Cagrici said: “Let us turn toward the Kiblah” – the direction of Mecca, which all Muslims must face when they perform their five-time-a-day prayers.

The Pope complied.

The two men, clad in long white robes, stood side by side and immobile for about two minutes, their hands crossed on their stomachs in a classical Muslim prayer attitude known as “the posture of tranquillity”.

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Europe lost their collective religious spine after WWII. Don’t expect any real conviction of Faith in Christianity anywhere outside of the New World. Their Christian populations are dying off because they’ve abandoned God, and it will be up to America to turn back the tide of islamic tyranny in the decades to come.

I am getting tired of the ridicule of those concerned about a “North American Union.”

If Bush gets his Amnesty AND Guest Worker Program, conservative estimates are that within ten years this country will be inundated with 100 million hispanics. At that point, does it matter if the “Amero” was a red herring, or put on the back burner till necessity required it.

Does anyone seriously think that after allowing that many people into the Country and giving them Citizenship and the right to vote, that they will not be a biased/easily swayed voting bloc that could and would ram home any unfinished portions of a “North American Union.”

The “holes” that have been poked in the “North American Union” theory are a fools security. Why doesn’t someone tackle the big issues like the fact that the groundwork that will inevitably give rise to a “N.A.U.” has already been laid with no oversight, no debate and most importantly no Congressional approval.

This is a big deal and will have massive ramifications for America and all Americans. Diminishing portions of it that are not necessary to accomplish the whole do not negate the it.

After offending the Muslim world by linking their religion with violence, Pope Benedict XVI, in an exceptional gesture, turned towards Mecca in an attitude of Muslim prayer at the Blue Mosque in Istanbul today, Turkish state television showed…

As a practicing, conservative Catholic, this doesn’t bother me one bit. He is probably praying to God for the conversion of the nutty Muslims the world over whose religion is centered in Mecca.

If the Muslims could read Pope Benedict’s mind, what he was praying to God during the “meditation,” they would probably be burning down the Vatican by now.

Exit question: does the Pope play any role in the North American Union conspiracy? I’m open to possibilities here. Dazzle me.

If you pull off his Scooby-Doo mask Pope Benedict is actually Vicente Fox. If you pull off Vincente Fox’s Scooby-Doo mask you’ll actually find George W. Bush. If you pull off George Bush’s Scooby-Doo mask you’ll come face to face with…..John P. Manley, noted internationalist, North American Union supporter and chairman of the Independent Task Force on North America. If you pull off John P. Manley’s Scooby-Doo mask you’ll find Satan himself. If you pull off Satan’s Scooby-Doo mask you’ll find…..Ronald Reagan (yeah, I was surprised too).

Actually, once he sat/knelt down, his turning toward Mecca, etc., and taking part (apparently) in non-Christian worship, he was behaving *CORRECTLY* per his churche’s teachings:

Catechism of the Catholic Church (1992), Part 1/Section 2/Chapter 3/Article 9/Para 3
841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day

…it’s the relativism that’s been creeping into the Church of Rome since Vatican II.

The problem is not that he did what I’m sure that he and his handlers thought was a nice gesture, it’s that he’s evidently reinforcing the fiction that Islam is one of the “Religions of Abraham”.

Muslims themselves hold that *THEY* are Children of Abraham, but that Jews and Christians *AREN’T*. Allah, they say, creates all people Muslims, and that those of us who aren’t — especially today the old German guy with the white zucchetto — are apostates…and, apostates in Islam are heir to *WHAT* penalty involving a long steak knife?

The two men, clad in long white robes, stood side by side and immobile for about two minutes, their hands crossed on their stomachs in a classical Muslim prayer attitude known as “the posture of tranquillity”.

Uhhh, I’m pretty sure I’ve seen lots of Christian pray like this as well.

I’m not going to even address the whole “did the Pope convert” cuz that just seems, you know, silly.

But I will say that I’ve seen papers print things about faith and prayer that seemed rather…tone deaf.

For example, I remember reading a long time ago an article about an Iraqi child who was injured and treated by US military doctors in Iraq.

When he first came in, he was in bad shape. After he was taken out of the operating room, his Muslim father and some of the Christian military doctors prayed for his recovery.

But then the doctors told the father that it looked like their boy was going to die.

So the father kept praying. (in a manner that was described by the reporters as Islamic. He had his arms open in front of him, with his palms up)

And then the good news…The child lived through the night and started to recover.

So the Muslim father and the Christian doctors prayed together again to celebrate this good news.

And this time, the reporter made sure to very pointedly note that the Christian doctors were now praying in a Muslim way. (arms open in front, palms up)

Anyway, that struck me as really weird for two reasons.

One, the tone of the article seemed to reek of some sort of smug, multi-culti well look at the zinger we got on those Christians. Praying just like the Muslims do. I guess their little clasped hands prayer isn’t so cool, is it?

And two, I know for a fact that I seen Christians pray just like that MANY times. That’s right, Christians praying with their arms open, and their palms up.

So I wasn’t too impressed with the papers point that they were adopting this “Muslim” style prayer.

Keep in mind, it could all be factually true; i.e. first the Doctors prayed with clasped hands, and then they prayed with palms up. But the “gotcha” attitude of the paper seemed strange. Plus, I knew for a fact that wasn’t exclusively a Muslim posture for a prayer.

And the same goes for the article Allahpundit clipped.

The two men, clad in long white robes, stood side by side and immobile for about two minutes, their hands crossed on their stomachs in a classical Muslim prayer attitude known as “the posture of tranquillity”.

This seems to indicate that the Pope is praying like a Muslim. Which isn’t really accurate. It appears that both Muslims and Christians both share this pose as a prayer.

And then we get to this following snippet.

The Pope remained with his eyes closed for about a minute, but did not repeat Cagrici’s gesture when the mufti wiped his face with the palms of both hands, signalling the end of the prayer.

So now we have this, the wiping of the face with both palms to signify the end of a prayer. I’ll be honest. I’ve never heard of Christians doing this. Perhaps this is a Muslim thing. But if it is, the Pope certainly didn’t mimic it. Which tends to indicate to me that the pope isn’t just blindly praying in whatever fashion is likely to please his host. (no pun intended)

This trip will, at minimum, remind people that there are shrinkin and oppressed Christian and other minorities in Muslim countries. The conciliatory and respectful gesture in the Mosque could be OK IF…
Now if the Muslims could do the same…..

The Pope is showing how we SHOULD act. And by it he shames the Muslims.

William Amos on November 30, 2006 at 4:23 PM

Unforetunately, I’m not expecting much in the way of reciprocation – but the lack thereof is keeping the Pope on the high ground – now it’s just a matter of people noticing that he is (the hard part).

Well the Pope’s mission to Turkey is to bring peace between Muslims and Christians. I like for the Pope to be a peacemaker than someone trying to push his faith on others.

Actually, he visited Turkey upon the invitation of Bartholomew I, the Orthodox Christian Ecumenical Patriarch, in order to discuss the 1000+ year schism between Orthodoxy and Catholicism and to try to find a way to heal the divisions between the two churches. Istambul (formerly Constantinople) is considered the center of Orthodoxy. It happens to be in Turkey, a muslim nation. So, the Pope’s original intent was NOT to bring peace between muslims and Christians. It just so happens that this is what everyone was focused on because of the Pope’s remarks about Mohammed a while back.

Well the Pope’s mission to Turkey is to bring peace between Muslims and Christians. I like for the Pope to be a peacemaker than someone trying to push his faith on others.

Now if the Muslims could do the same…..

The Pope is showing how we SHOULD act. And by it he shames the Muslims.

William Amos on November 30, 2006 at 4:23 PM

I’m with you on this one. This is the head of a religion showing respect to another religon. If an Iranian Ayatollah visited the Vatican and showed respect to the Catholic religon, they would hang him as soon as he set foot back in Tehran.

The leader of a major religion shouldn’t show excessive respect toward what he believes is a false religion, IMO. If he believes its followers are doomed unless they convert, why would he want to give them (and everyone else) the impression that he acknowledges the validity of their religion?
The most respect he should show is to take off his shoes, look around, and say, “Mighty nice wallhangings. Pray? No, no, ha ha, I’m Catholic, didn’t they tell you? Thank you anyway.”

Lawrence, one does not jettison one’s principles because someone views it in a manner contrary to it’s essense. To purposely do something contrary to what your principles would have you do, just for the sake of appearances, is what reeks, and the smell is called superficiality.

The most respect he should show is to take off his shoes, look around, and say, “Mighty nice wallhangings. Pray? No, no, ha ha, I’m Catholic, didn’t they tell you? Thank you anyway.”

Do you really want to be in the business of telling the fricking Pope where he should and shouldn’t pray? I know that sort of question is waaaaay above my pay grade, and I don’t want any part of it. Especially given that we don’t know what he was praying about…

There’s a saying in the Catholic blogosphere: when the media reports on things like this, they ususally get it 50% wrong, because they’re idiots when it comes to Christianity generally, and even more dumb when it comes to Catholicism.

Some of the comments here are really insulting. The Pope has not converted to Islam. I can’t tell if some of these comments are jokes, or are just smears against the Pope and hence all Catholics.

The Vatican is a tiny patch of land, mid-way down a peninsula, on the edge of continent in which it’s reported that the majority of the young, vigorous part of the populace will shortly be muslim. It seems the Pope can do one of five things: deny the predicted course of Europe, ignore that predicted course, prepare an evacuation, try to accommodate, or pray to God for intervention.

It seems to me the tax placed on non-muslims will make a middle course impossible in the long run.

I remember visiting Istanbul back in the mid 70’s and I fell in love with the Blue Mosque. Sultan Ahmet, I think it’s called. Incredible building. I remember visiting three or four times in the week I was there. I would go in, find a quiet corner in the main sanctuary by a column and meditate. Yes, meditate. I used to practice TM back in those days. The ceiling has to be 100 feet high and the chandeliers hang down to about 20 feet off the ground. It’s an unbelievable building and I would encourage everyone to visit one day.

I remember taking my shoes off as that was the custom. Being a visitor I did want to show respect.

My visit was, very obviously, waaayyyy before I learned about what Islam really is and the politics of the day.

I bring this to attention because when I visit churches with friends, I pray. I pray when I’m in temple. If I were invited to a mosque, I would not hesitate to pray there either. I would, however, say MY prayers, not the host’s, and they would be silent.

I would not spit in my host’s face, nor would I dishonor what the building is, a house of God. (I won’t get into the Allah is the Moon God mode here.)

Now, we can all discourse on the politics of the Pope’s visit, the potential reconcilliation with the Orthodox, the defense of Christians in the Dar al Islam, but for him to pray in a mosque is no big deal. Facing the Kaaba? Um, maybe not. But there is too much politics attached to the visit and if you think that the shitstorm that erupted due to his Regansburg (sp?) speech was big, imagine what would have happened if he did something even “more disrespectful?”

Speaking as someone who was raised Catholic – how could any Catholic NOT be an atheist by now?

Humn … funny, still Catholic, not an atheist. Guess I’m just stupid that way. I view the Pope’s actions as being respectful without capitulating. After all, doesn’t matter what direction we face when we pray.

Great, they blow up our skycrapers with our airplanes and we can’t screen them at the airport ’cause they might be “offended”.

By the way, Turkey should’ve been removed from NATO as soon as they refused to let us roll through their territory on the way to Iraq.

The Pope says they’re violent (which they are) nobody’s killed by his words (although some Christians are killed by muslims angered by those words) but HE has to be respectful to THEM.

So, if they kill our people, we have to be nice to them, and if we insult them by telling the truth … we have to be nice to them. Got it.

This is a case of Shame Society and Guilt Society.

There’s only one way to deal with a Shame Society. Ask Japan how we’ve been known to fix this kind of mess.

We need to start splittin’ some freakin’ atoms. The city state of Troy was located in what is modern day Turkey. Let’s put a nuke in a big black square rock that looks just like the one in Mecca and say it’s a gift from the Greeks.

Humn … funny, still Catholic, not an atheist. Guess I’m just stupid that way. I view the Pope’s actions as being respectful without capitulating. After all, doesn’t matter what direction we face when we pray.

I’m going to have to agree with mikeyboss and Carin. I am Catholic and not an atheist yet. As a matter of fact I rather like being Catholic.
Many seem to view the Pope as some kind of temporal ruler. He’s not. He is the spiritual leader of the Catholic Church. The one charged with leading the flock. His power comes not from the people but from God.
THe last Pope was very muchinterested in going places and when he went places he did things as they wanted. He showed teh respect and even went into synogogues and mosques. The one big difference is that whenever (most of the times) he went into a new land, things changed. Just ask Poland. I’m as big a fan of Reagan as anyone here but if you ask me why the USSR fell – it was John Paul II.
A spiritual presence to a people in chains is like firing up all the boilers. I am guessing the letter Mahmoud sent the Pope may have helped the Pope accept the invite to go into Turkey. I bet we see more trips into Muslim countries by this Pope. Something of a papal in-your-face.
As Cardinal Ratzinger, he made it fairly clear that he is not a Muslim nor will he ever be. As Pope, he’s locked into it. No matter what others may spin it as, it is neither submission nor cowardice.

This blog’s comment section has been infiltrated by reflexive hyperpartisans.

Good grief people… here’s something that many of you may not realize. Catholics can face any direction they want when they pray! Respectfully joining in their service doesn’t make him a muslim any more than I am Catholic for having done the kneel-sit-stand stuff when I visited a Catholic service.

2. You can thank the Catholic mission to subdue “all things for Christ” for Christmas, Easter and even halloween. If you don’t like it you can all be Jehovah’s Witnesses and you will fit right in.

3. As the vicar of Christ he is simply showing respect for the religion and which, for most, at it’s core is a search for God. I don’t think he’ll be marching around the kaaba anytime soon. But try getting a high profile Muslim to participate in a mass or even a good ole timey hymn sing… forget about it.

Congratulations on not being a Catholic you must be very proud. It’s not a difficult faith to defend quite the contrary. Pope Benedict has been the only public figure that has seriosuly questioned Islam. We’ve all done it ourselves but then the Pope hasn’t attempted hiding behind a pseudonym on a message board. He addressed millions of people at great personal risk to himself.

In the eyse of Muslims, this is the Roman Catholic Pope ‘defering’ to Islam and a sign of submission and weakness. This just encourages them to disregard our overtures of peace and continue fighting.

Everything and anything is regarded by jihadists as a sign of submission as far as I can tell. The Pope is not a warlold and it doesn’t fall to him to defeat the jihad. The fact that they regard any behaviour short of aggression as a sign of weakness is a sign of their desire to conquer the West.

The Vatican is a tiny patch of land, mid-way down a peninsula, on the edge of continent in which it’s reported that the majority of the young, vigorous part of the populace will shortly be muslim. It seems the Pope can do one of five things: deny the predicted course of Europe, ignore that predicted course, prepare an evacuation, try to accommodate, or pray to God for intervention.

While Vatican City has been the traditional home of the Pope he should consider re-locating. Italy seems especially vulnerable to the jihad and probably won’t be safe for the future. I imagine he’ll end up in America or Australia.

The whole face Mecca and pray thing is crap. It decends directly from Daniel (of lion’s den fame) turning toward Jerusalem to pray in his titular book (hehe, you said…). All arguments are pointless. We are in a war–both “holy” and physical. We can win either one, but we may be in the process of falling on our sword because of our own spiritual decadence.

And BTW, the pope is not my pope. So I really could care less about what that dude does.