(08-31-2017, 11:24 PM)xise Wrote: A body with a full store of B12 can go without B12 for years before there is any deficiency. It's something to definitely keep in mind, but it's probably a bit overhyped as you only really need to take B12 one month in a year or so.Mayo Clinic Vitamin B12
The human body stores several years' worth of vitamin B12 in the liver, so low levels in the body are rare.

It is true that the body has stores that in some cases can provide years of this nutrient, but I vehemently disagree with the "one month a year or so" recommendation. This is exactly why many vegans who do not supplement do not take the issue seriously: they only have obvious, easily identifiable problems several years into their vegan journey. Unfortunately, most of the vegangelical types posting these ideas are below three years into the process. Indeed, B12 issues are under-diagnosed in the non-vegan population, but as I said you'll find plenty of different, conflicting positions across the internet. Anyone can find an article validating anything they want to believe (or not) about either B12 or Veganism in general. That is why I encourage everyone to do their own research into this topic and make up their own mind. I am speaking from direct experience and do believe that the consensus is that supplementation or fortified foods is necessary, but ultimately it's up to you to decide what's best for yourself. Some items to consider are that different people are better/worse at absorbing B12, there is a difference between a severe and a mild deficiency, B12 is best absorbed in small amounts, and the first effects for many people manifest as depression, irritability, and general problems with cognition rather than obvious nerve issues, which come later. Here is a very good article on the topic endorsed by many global vegan organizations:

Their recommendation is as follows:

Quote:What Every Vegan Should Know about Vitamin B12
An Open Letter from Health Professionals and Vegan Organizations

I am not claiming to have all the answers, but am simply sharing some food for thought. Everyone's experience is unique and it's necessary for everyone to do their own research and make up their own mind for what is best for them. That said, I strongly feel that this is an important topic for anyone who wishes to be a long-term and healthy vegan to consider. I am thriving 7 years into my vegan journey and feel very happy and healthy now, but I had a rough time a few years ago that could have been completely avoided if I had properly educated myself about B12.

“All beings tremble before violence. All fear death, all love life. See yourself in others. Then whom can you hurt? What harm can you do?”
~Buddha

“The question is not, Can they reason? nor, Can they talk? but rather, Can they suffer?”
~Jeremy Bentham

“The screams of my dying father as his body was ravaged by the many cancers that killed him were the same as the ones in the slaughterhouse, on the cattle ships the dying mother as she calls out to her calf. Their cries were the cries of my father. They were identical. When we suffer, we suffer as equals. And in their capacity to suffer, a dog is a pig is a bear...is a boy.”
~Philip Wollen

“Until we have the courage to recognize cruelty for what it is—whether its victim is human or animal—we cannot expect things to be much better in this world. We cannot have peace among men whose hearts delight in killing any living creature.
~Rachel Carson

“Life is as dear to a mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not die, so do other creatures.”
~The Dalai Lama

"Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages."
~Thomas Edison

"If a man aspires towards a righteous life, his first act of abstinence is from injury to animals."
~Albert Einstein

"The awful wrongs and sufferings forced upon the innocent, helpless, faithful animal race, form the blackest chapter in the whole world's history."
~Edward Freeman

“Wild animals never kill for sport. Man is the only one to whom the torture and death of his fellow creatures is amusing in itself.”
~James A. Froude

“To my mind, the life of a lamb is no less precious than that of a human being. The more helpless the creature, the more that it is entitled to protection by man from the cruelty of man.”
~Mohandas Gandhi

-`ღ´-

Compassion, sensitivity, and an ability to empathize are helpful in avoiding the distortions of man-made intelligence and awareness.

I got extensive blood work done the other week (family is full of doctors, so constant reminders until I get some bloodwork every few years). My B12 blood levels were smack in the middle of the expected range according to the lab.

I've been vegan about 3 years. I basically take no supplements, except for Alive! Adult Multivitamins (which have B12) maybe 4-6 months of the year. I don't try to eat especially healthy or well-balanced (though to put it into perspective my mother is a nutritionist so my perception of healthy may be different than an average's person), though I do watch my calories.

Everyone's different though, and it is pretty easy, quick, and cheap to get bloodwork done, so I encourage people who aren't sure to get their levels checked.

Service to Others is the path of universal love. Universal love includes the self.

At any point in time, scientists, biologists, nutritionists, etc. change views according to belief systems. Science isn't supposed to "believe," but it does, with a sense of authority and implacability which is always changed later in light of whatever new beliefs or observations arise. Biologists for example know so little about metabolism it would shock most people.

Ultimately, there must be an underlying life force we consume to sustain life—as in the golden light Ra talked about. It seems—to me—like the very furthest thing from that to consume dead animals.

Yes, and I guess, to wrap it up - B12 is not a but, but an and, a question of 'how', of management, rather than a stumbling block. I am vegan for about 20 years now, I've had a serious deficiency in B12 after a couple of years because at the time no-one knew about the issue, and never again. There's no need to panic, it's well and easily possible to stay healthy on a vegan organic diet, and not develop any deficiencies.

-`ღ´-

Compassion, sensitivity, and an ability to empathize are helpful in avoiding the distortions of man-made intelligence and awareness.

(01-08-2018, 02:09 PM)Nía Wrote: Yes, and I guess, to wrap it up - B12 is not a but, but an and, a question of 'how', of management, rather than a stumbling block. I am vegan for about 20 years now, I've had a serious deficiency in B12 after a couple of years because at the time no-one knew about the issue, and never again. There's no need to panic, it's well and easily possible to stay healthy on a vegan organic diet, and not develop any deficiencies.

-`ღ´-

20..years? That's amazing, do you recall what was the corner stone that made you go vegan?

(01-08-2018, 02:19 PM)Sprout Wrote: 20..years? That's amazing, do you recall what was the corner stone that made you go vegan?

Yes, that's easy to tell - I was vegetarian for 7 years by then, but during that time being vegetarian became so normal for me, that I didn't really look into 'animal agriculture' until, at 19, I saw a documentary about a laying battery, that turned me, my best friend, and subsequently a group of I think 7 people into instant vegans, animal rights activists and animal liberationists. That's why I eventually did the same, undercover research in factory farms, slaughterhouses and the like, to produce films/TV reports about animal cruelty and the alternatives, until I shifted my main focus on organised and occult/ritual abuse...

-`ღ´-

Compassion, sensitivity, and an ability to empathize are helpful in avoiding the distortions of man-made intelligence and awareness.

Just stumbled upon a quote, in which Q'uo made a point of sentient beings, as opposed to insentient, and also as a separate category from being of a specific density, in this case 2D and 3D. (The largest part of the quote is just for the context, the part in bold is what I am referring to.)

Quo Wrote:The figure of awareness watching awareness is a good description of how the mind or consciousness feels within meditation, for as the persistent and hectic thoughts of the daylight mind and its choice-making characteristics pop up within the meditative state, there is that consciousness aware of consciousness that chooses not to be aware of the rising and falling of desultory thoughts.

However, awareness conscious of awareness has within it the figure of the seeker which is attempting to meditate, whereas, when we say “consciousness” as opposed to the mind or mental activity of the brain, we are speaking of a consciousness that is the same for all and that is also congruent with the Logos, or the one great original Thought of unconditional love.

If awareness is conscious of awareness, then that puts the individual solidly in the middle of that consciousness. So, in the one figure there is the individual; in the other figure there is the inference that this consciousness is not only the consciousness of you as an individual but also each and every other sentient being as an individual. There is one consciousness and each individual finds entry into that consciousness.

-`ღ´-

Compassion, sensitivity, and an ability to empathize are helpful in avoiding the distortions of man-made intelligence and awareness.

(01-14-2018, 08:09 AM)Nía Wrote: Just stumbled upon a quote, in which Q'uo made a point of sentient beings, as opposed to insentient, and also as a separate category from being of a specific density, in this case 2D and 3D. (The largest part of the quote is just for the context, the part in bold is what I am referring to.)

Quo Wrote:The figure of awareness watching awareness is a good description of how the mind or consciousness feels within meditation, for as the persistent and hectic thoughts of the daylight mind and its choice-making characteristics pop up within the meditative state, there is that consciousness aware of consciousness that chooses not to be aware of the rising and falling of desultory thoughts.

However, awareness conscious of awareness has within it the figure of the seeker which is attempting to meditate, whereas, when we say “consciousness” as opposed to the mind or mental activity of the brain, we are speaking of a consciousness that is the same for all and that is also congruent with the Logos, or the one great original Thought of unconditional love.

If awareness is conscious of awareness, then that puts the individual solidly in the middle of that consciousness. So, in the one figure there is the individual; in the other figure there is the inference that this consciousness is not only the consciousness of you as an individual but also each and every other sentient being as an individual. There is one consciousness and each individual finds entry into that consciousness.

-`ღ´-

Quite confusing, but that part about awareness meditating, it really got me thinking about how animals would lay down and not sleep but rather relax or "meditate". They do it much more often than humans do in fact, perhaps because we constantly seek amuse the brain or such.

(01-14-2018, 10:51 AM)Sprout Wrote: Quite confusing, but that part about awareness meditating, it really got me thinking about how animals would lay down and not sleep but rather relax or "meditate". They do it much more often than humans do in fact, perhaps because we constantly seek amuse the brain or such.

Most people would be quick to dismiss animals 'meditating' (I was almost about to do that before I realised the following ), but have you ever seen animals intently listening inwards? I definitely have, all sorts of animals, and I don't know what they're doing in this state, but it definitely looks like meditation!

Compassion, sensitivity, and an ability to empathize are helpful in avoiding the distortions of man-made intelligence and awareness.

... and have you ever seen the powerful calming, and even trauma-releasing effect humans with a still mind (meditating, or simply being present) can have on animals of any kind? James French has a couple of absolutely stunning videos about that, which he calls the Trust Technique:

Compassion, sensitivity, and an ability to empathize are helpful in avoiding the distortions of man-made intelligence and awareness.

I have been intimately cohabitating with a chicken (rooster) in my house for over four months now. I also have 7 more outside.

Living with Glee indoors has been an amazing learning experience. It's interesting that it's completely socially acceptable to have parrot type birds who live in your house and free range, but often people are shocked with the idea of having a chicken indoors. Often the cry is - "WHAT ABOUT THE POOP??" Well, unlike a parrot or parakeet, Glee is stationed on the ground, so it isn't this horrible unmanageable mess. In fact, the hour or two of flight time that my pigeons get out of their cage in a day makes way more of a mess than having glee out for 8 hours. We have laminate wood flooring so cleaning up his little hershey poops every other hour or so is hardly a strain.

But what I'm truly shocked about is how much more personality and inquisition he carries with him than my dogs. The tiny chicken brain has 2x as many neurons as a dog's, and that is apparent. Glee is constantly interested in his surroundings, and processing complicated thoughts and decisions. In many ways he is just like the dogs - he RUNS after he when I go into the kitchen, especially if he hears a crinkly bag (universal sound for treats/food in this house). He loves being held/cuddled/pet. And really, it's just a joy being able to get this close to a different part of creation.

Glee is an "oops rooster", a product of backyard farming. Many people buy tiny day old chicks, either from feed stores, or sometimes even they order them online and have them shipped. All hatcheries for egg laying breeds attempt to sex the animals at birth, and all suspected males are killed within a day of being born and ground up for pet food. Sometimes they survive, and female chicks who are sent through the mail are packaged with "extra males" for "warmth" and "padding". Glee is a "Rhode Island red" which is a "production breed", which means he was likely bought from a feed store. This means someone at a hatchery mistook Glee for a lady, which is the only reason he exists today. His previous owner obviously loved him (I can tell the difference now having adopted 7 chickens from the shelter), but due to laws restricting roosters in populated areas, they took their friend and companion and left him at the shelter.

At the shelter, Glee was housed in a dog run, next to all the quarantined dogs, and along a busy highway. My friend who had been visiting the shelter regularly noticed him, and noticed how much he seemed to love humans. So sent me a text and I just couldn't say no. We cleaned out our spare room, laid tarps and blankets down for easy washing, and moved a rooster into our house.

Sure, Glee will sometimes crow fairly early in the morning, but actually, most days he's quiet until after 7. But even the minor irritations are worth it when I put it into perspective - he is one of the lucky ones. He is one of the very few roosters on this planet who gets to live a normal life and die a natural death. And, he is my friend. He's not much different at all from a feathery puppy. He loves to watch TV. And now, he's basically internet famous, being the star of a video that has been cumulatively viewed nearly 3 million times.

Glee's life is worth so much more than the moment it takes to eat an egg, or a chicken wing. His life is a serious of moments that culminate into him being a being. He has friends, favorite foods, things he looks forward to. His eyes convey a deep array of thoughts and emotions, constantly. I was recently watching a video of a protest inside of a kosher slaughterhouse, and they had crates and crates full of Glees ("production reds") looking terrified, sick, sad, and confused. It was devastating.

When I see people eating chicken, or hear people talk about eating chicken, it is analogous to if a dog caretaker were to hear others glibly talking about eating dog. It's shocking, it's uncomfortable, and it's heartbreaking. I love all of my chickens immensely and they are each obviously individuals. Everyone has a personality, habits, favorite treats, and ways of interacting with each other. I no longer see a difference between chickens and dogs.

(01-14-2018, 01:26 PM)Bring4th_Jade Wrote: I love all of my chickens immensely and they are each obviously individuals. Everyone has a personality, habits, favorite treats, and ways of interacting with each other. I no longer see a difference between chickens and dogs.

(01-14-2018, 01:26 PM)Bring4th_Jade Wrote: He loves to watch TV. And now, he's basically internet famous, being the star of a video that has been cumulatively viewed nearly 3 million times.

May I? (Watch till the end!)

That's my sweet Glee! In case anyone is worried, the reason we were filming him is because there are a lot of crows in the scene, and when the crows were "cawing", Glee kept making noises much like the crows - almost imitating them!! It was really silly and weird!! So we tried to capture that, but instead, we captured, mainly, his reaction to the flock of birds scattering. The noise he makes in the video is actually way more normal than the noise he was making before!

Glee is also going to be published in a book soon. A photographer did a photo shoot with us in our backyard on a windy day a couple months ago. He really is a special guy:

(01-14-2018, 02:56 PM)Diana Wrote: Regarding the "trust technique" above, this is a scene from my favorite Miyazaki film, Nausicaa and the Valley of the Wind.

Lovely!

That reminds me of the resident cat 'Blacky', which was nicknamed 'Swipey' by the previous inhabitants, as she lashed out at everyone when I first came here... and of my long dead horse 'Falke' (falcon, or hawk in English), who was seriously dangerous when I first met him. As with people, fear is always the root cause of aggression or whatever kind of unwanted behaviour.

Compassion, sensitivity, and an ability to empathize are helpful in avoiding the distortions of man-made intelligence and awareness.

(01-14-2018, 01:26 PM)Bring4th_Jade Wrote: I have been intimately cohabitating with a chicken (rooster) in my house for over four months now. I also have 7 more outside.

Living with Glee indoors has been an amazing learning experience. It's interesting that it's completely socially acceptable to have parrot type birds who live in your house and free range, but often people are shocked with the idea of having a chicken indoors. Often the cry is - "WHAT ABOUT THE POOP??" Well, unlike a parrot or parakeet, Glee is stationed on the ground, so it isn't this horrible unmanageable mess. In fact, the hour or two of flight time that my pigeons get out of their cage in a day makes way more of a mess than having glee out for 8 hours. We have laminate wood flooring so cleaning up his little hershey poops every other hour or so is hardly a strain.

But what I'm truly shocked about is how much more personality and inquisition he carries with him than my dogs. The tiny chicken brain has 2x as many neurons as a dog's, and that is apparent. Glee is constantly interested in his surroundings, and processing complicated thoughts and decisions. In many ways he is just like the dogs - he RUNS after he when I go into the kitchen, especially if he hears a crinkly bag (universal sound for treats/food in this house). He loves being held/cuddled/pet. And really, it's just a joy being able to get this close to a different part of creation.

Glee is an "oops rooster", a product of backyard farming. Many people buy tiny day old chicks, either from feed stores, or sometimes even they order them online and have them shipped. All hatcheries for egg laying breeds attempt to sex the animals at birth, and all suspected males are killed within a day of being born and ground up for pet food. Sometimes they survive, and female chicks who are sent through the mail are packaged with "extra males" for "warmth" and "padding". Glee is a "Rhode Island red" which is a "production breed", which means he was likely bought from a feed store. This means someone at a hatchery mistook Glee for a lady, which is the only reason he exists today. His previous owner obviously loved him (I can tell the difference now having adopted 7 chickens from the shelter), but due to laws restricting roosters in populated areas, they took their friend and companion and left him at the shelter.

At the shelter, Glee was housed in a dog run, next to all the quarantined dogs, and along a busy highway. My friend who had been visiting the shelter regularly noticed him, and noticed how much he seemed to love humans. So sent me a text and I just couldn't say no. We cleaned out our spare room, laid tarps and blankets down for easy washing, and moved a rooster into our house.

Sure, Glee will sometimes crow fairly early in the morning, but actually, most days he's quiet until after 7. But even the minor irritations are worth it when I put it into perspective - he is one of the lucky ones. He is one of the very few roosters on this planet who gets to live a normal life and die a natural death. And, he is my friend. He's not much different at all from a feathery puppy. He loves to watch TV. And now, he's basically internet famous, being the star of a video that has been cumulatively viewed nearly 3 million times.

Glee's life is worth so much more than the moment it takes to eat an egg, or a chicken wing. His life is a serious of moments that culminate into him being a being. He has friends, favorite foods, things he looks forward to. His eyes convey a deep array of thoughts and emotions, constantly. I was recently watching a video of a protest inside of a kosher slaughterhouse, and they had crates and crates full of Glees ("production reds") looking terrified, sick, sad, and confused. It was devastating.

When I see people eating chicken, or hear people talk about eating chicken, it is analogous to if a dog caretaker were to hear others glibly talking about eating dog. It's shocking, it's uncomfortable, and it's heartbreaking. I love all of my chickens immensely and they are each obviously individuals. Everyone has a personality, habits, favorite treats, and ways of interacting with each other. I no longer see a difference between chickens and dogs.

I found a baby crow that fell from its tree and broke it's beak pretty badly, it was bleeding and kept its head to the ground all the time. I decided to take him home and take care of him, feeding a crow is no easy task as he couldn't eat or drink on his own, and the food had to be fresh and juicy. I'd need to stick my whole finger in his mouth like the parents would, and then he'd make this cute "om nom nom nom" sound as he ate. Also I had to give him water from a tube. It took months until he slowly learned to fly across the house, at which point I released him back and he was welcomed by his fellow crows.

(01-14-2018, 01:26 PM)Bring4th_Jade Wrote: I love all of my chickens immensely and they are each obviously individuals. Everyone has a personality, habits, favorite treats, and ways of interacting with each other. I no longer see a difference between chickens and dogs.

(01-14-2018, 01:26 PM)Bring4th_Jade Wrote: I love all of my chickens immensely and they are each obviously individuals. Everyone has a personality, habits, favorite treats, and ways of interacting with each other. I no longer see a difference between chickens and dogs.

(01-14-2018, 01:11 PM)Nía Wrote: ... and have you ever seen the powerful calming, and even trauma-releasing effect humans with a still mind (meditating, or simply being present) can have on animals of any kind? James French has a couple of absolutely stunning videos about that, which he calls the Trust Technique:

There's a lovely new video of him available on Facebook about connection to animals (a pity they don't allow embedding anymore):