What JGIG Is:

Joyfully Growing In Grace engages in an examination of beliefs found in the Hebrew Roots Movement, Messianic Judaism, and Netzarim streams of thought and related sects.

The term “Messianic” is generally understood to describe Jews who have come to believe in Yeshua/Jesus as their Messiah. Jews who are believers in Jesus/Yeshua typically call themselves Jewish/Hebrew Christians or simply, Christians.

Many Christians meet folks who say they are ‘Messianic’ and assume that those folks are Jewish Christians. Most aren’t Jewish at all, but are Gentile Christians who have chosen to pursue Torah observance and have adopted the Messianic term, calling themselves Messianic Christians, adherents to Messianic Judaism, or simply, Messianics. Some will even try to avoid that label and say that they are followers of "The Way".

These Gentiles (and to be fair, some Messianic Jews) preach Torah observance/pursuance for Christians, persuading many believers that the Christianity of the Bible is a false religion and that we must return to the faith of the first century sect of Judaism that they say Yeshua (Jesus Christ) embraced. According to them, once you become aware that you should be 'keeping' the edicts and regulations of Mosaic Covenant Law, if you do not, you are then in willful disobedience to God.

It has been my observation that Christians who adopt the label of Messianic identify more with the tenets of Judaism than they do with the tenets of Christianity. Many reject the label of Christian altogether and some eventually even convert to Judaism.

1 Thessalonians 5:21-22 says, "But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; abstain from every form of evil."

Joyfully Growing in Grace examines the methods, claims, and fruits of the Hebrew Roots Movement, Messianic Judaism, and Netzarim streams of thought and related, law-keeping sects.

To borrow from a Forrest Gump quote, “Law ‘keepers’ are like a box of chocolates - ya never know what you’re gonna get!” The goal of JGIG is to be a resource to help those affected by the Torah pursuant movements to try and sort out what they’re dealing with. Make use of the tabs with drop-down menus found at the top of this site – there’s tons of info there, and it’s very navigable.

Be sure to click on the many embedded links within the posts here - there's lots of additional and related information for you to access that way, as well.

Welcome, and may God grant you wisdom and discernment as you consider all of these things.

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Broken Links – UGH

Do you find it frustrating when you're directed to a link that does not exist? Me too! My apologies for any broken links you may find here.

JGIG occasionally links to to sites that sometimes move or remove content, forums that periodically cull threads, sites/posters that appear to 'scrub' content from their sites (or YouTube posts, pdf files, etc.) when that content receives negative attention, and others that over time simply cease to exist.

Please let me know via the 'Contact JGIG' drop-down menu item under the 'About' tab at the top of this page if you come across a link that is broken so that I can try to repair or remove it. Please include the name of the post/article where you found the broken link as well as the link itself. You may be able to find content specified by doing a search and viewing a relocated or cached page/post/video.

Thanks,
- JGIG

Total Hits

Following is a compilation of posts here at JGIG regarding how I became exposed to the Hebrew Roots Movement/Messianic Judaism/Netzarim streams of thought and came to refute certain beliefs to which they hold. To clarify, I have never been in the HRM/MJism. I do, however, know people in the movement as well as some who were in it and are now out.

My style is straightforward and sometimes blunt. Some interpret blunt as unloving. If you are one of those people, please know that I love you in spite of whether or not you ‘get’ bluntness =o).

To clarify: If you keep the Feasts of God and a seventh-day Sabbath because you find blessings there and a deeper understanding of God and Who He is, I think that’s fine. If you think that you need to do those things to be obedient to God, be blessed by Him, because if you don’t, there will be consequences, or tell other Christians that they should be Torah Observant/Pursuant and if they don’t they’re disobeying the commands of God, then I think you’re out of bounds. (Please see the ‘What JGIG Is’ and ‘What JGIG Is Not’ sections at the top of the sidebars on this site for more.)

If you or someone you know is in the HRM or a related Law-keeping sect and are questioning what you believe, a clear presentation of the Gospel can be found HERE. For more resources regarding the Hebrew Roots/Messianic movements see the Post Index and the Articles Page. General study helps, discernment, and apologetics sites can be found HERE. Good, foundational studies with a special emphasis on Old Covenant/New Covenant Truths can be found HERE. Be sure to check out the Testimonies Page, as well. Make use of the tabs with drop-down menus found at the top of this site – there’s tons of info there, and it’s very navigable. May God guide and bless you as you seek His Truth.

You said a lot of things that needed be said on this blog. It seems to me that the Messianic movement attracts some strange people with strange doctrines, but I do believe that the movement at it’s core is a valid one.

I’m happy to say that the congregation I attend is theologically solid, and they understand that the Feasts all point to Messiah, and are not ends in themselves. They are also very strong on the doctrine of salvation by grace, and of course the triune nature of God. Our congregation is more or less 50/50 Jewish/non-Jewish (I am Gentile), and our leader (Jewish) is quick to point out that neither being Jewish nor striving to keep the Law grants us any “brownie points” with God, but only trusting in Yeshua/Jesus and his *finished* work on the cross. Interesting that some people accuse us of being too much like a “church”! Oh well…

If I have a quibble about anything they do, it’s that they typically write “G-d” or “L-rd” on most of their literature, the justification of which is not to be offensive to the unsaved Jewish people we share Messiah with. Personally I don’t practice this, because I feel to be consistent I would also need to write “Y-shua” or “J-sus” which is of course never required in the NT. This is of course just nit-picking, IMHO.

You rightly say (as does Paul) that we are not saved or sanctified in any way by observing “holy days” or keeping Torah. Even so, I am looking forward to our congregational Passover seder this Friday, not out of a sense of obligation, but one of celebration of what our God has done for us. Sunday, I’m looking forward to spending time with my in-laws for Easter.

As for worshipping on the Sabbath (which we do): Christ/Messiah Himself is my Sabbath (Heb 4), and I could care less if we met every second Tuesday! Besides, I don’t reserve one day a week to worship the Lord, but do so every day. If I want to visit my friends/family at their churches on Sunday, it works out very well too!

I enjoyed the material on your blog I had the opportunity to read. Keep up the good work, and God bless.

I agree with RW. And I have a friend that is very much the same way, he is a Messianic Jew who not only celebrates the Jewish feasts and days but he also celebrates the Christian ones as well. And as a Christian, I believe we should always take an effort to understand our Hebrew background which Christianity is. Jesus was born a Jew. His mother, Mary, was Jewish, all the apostles and Paul. Remember, the OT and the NT both have parallels. The New fulfills the Old. That is why I believe it is important to look and understand the Hebrew roots of Christianity. However, you don’t have to be a Messianic Jew or a Hebrew Roots Christian. And how much you want some or most Messianic Jews observe both days as important and try to connect them.

Willard, whatever game you’re playing to take an email sent to you by me explaining why your comment would not be approved here and then resending a small fraction of that email to ‘Brick’ is at best lacking in integrity.

You attempted to post a 5-point teaching on why Christians should ‘keep’ Old Testament Law along with 4 links to audio/visual teachings by ‘teachers of the law’.

Your ‘comment’ had nothing to do with anything on the post on which you chose to comment.

My full email to you:

Hi Willard,

Please review the comments policy at JGIG. Your comments are welcome as long as they pertain to a specific post =o).

And for future reference, if you put more than one link in your comments, WordPress will send the comment to SPAM.

Also note that I will not allow links to what I consider to be false teaching. If you have something to say, say it yourself.

Blessings,
-JGIG

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Comments are welcome at JGIG!

Unfortunately I did have to go to moderated comments last year when some abusive stuff came through =o( . So here’s the scoop, as it’s become evident that a Comments Policy at JGIG is long overdue:

*Please comment on issues related to a specific post. Some like to vent their frustration with this blog by picking a post and then letting loose with an ad hom tirade, not addressing ANY points in the post on which they’ve chosen to ‘comment’.

*Some who are in the Hebrew Roots/Messianic Judaism stream of thought like to pontificate on their entire belief system in the comments section. Comments are for discussion. If you have that much to say, start your own blog. I’ve gotten comments here as long as 6000 words. Seriously.

*Think of commenting as part of a conversation. Would you talk non-stop for 6000 words in a discourse? Well, maybe you would, but don’t do it here =o).

*Dissent is welcome here. Dissent will be approved. Even ad hom stuff will be approved. Just keep it of a reasonable length and at least loosely related to the content of the post on which you’ve chosen to comment.

*Obviously no abusive language or vulgar personal attacks will be entertained here at JGIG. There is no profit for anyone reading that stuff.

*No plagiarizing. If you want to quote something or use another source to make your point, that’s fine. Just cite your source.

*Comments building on the content of the post and edifying comments will be approved =o).

*Encouragement to the author also will be approved =o).

*Note that this entire page (not including the cartoon) is less than 300 words long

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Since you included a link to the above post in your email to ‘Brick’, I thought is would be nice for him/her to actually have something to read concerning the issue =oD.

Hi, I havea question. First let me say that I got involved a Messianic congregation years ago, and I enjoyed learning lots of history and love it. But they got really legalistic about observations and I was grieved because the law became too heavy for me to carry.
But my question is, where is the belief of these people about person of the Holy Spirit. They seem to ignore his guidance.
Thanks for your response.

Ya know . . . that’s a really interesting question, because I know that many folks who get into the HRM are from charismatic backgrounds. There are HRM sites that tout the work of the Holy Spirit, but not being a part of those assemblies (if there is an assembly beyond those who fellowship via the internet), I won’t presume to make a judgement call on any manifestations or ‘workings’ they may experience.

The other thing to consider with how HRMers view the Holy Spirit is that it is He Who gives them the ‘ability’ to ‘keep’ Torah. For the Christian, we believe that the Holy Spirit indwells us to guide us, be our conscience, progressively sanctifying us as we walk in obedience to Him. The Law ‘keeper’, however, views the Holy Spirit and the one who gives them strength to obey Torah. It is via Torah that they believe they are sanctified – by the Law, not by the Spirit.

Maybe some who are Torah pursuant and read here could offer some input?

I’m not familiar with the teaching that the Holy Spirit gives us power to keep Torah. I agree with you (and the Bible :-) that the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth. I’m guessing where we differ is the obedience part. You walk in obedience to a spirit, but the Bible tells us to test the spirits to see if they be from God. If any prophet or spirit compell us to ignore/disregard ANY of God’s commandments, then that prophet/spirit is NOT from God. “To the law and the testimony, if they speak not according to these, then there is no light in them”… How else do we discern other prophets like Muhammad or Mormonism?

The teaching that the Holy Spirit gives us power to keep God’s commandments is a common teaching not only in Law-keeping sects, but in much of mainstream Christianity today. And I would not disagree totally with that concept, with the following caveats:

A) Which commandments? In the New Covenant, there are only 2 – Believe on the One God has sent and love one another. All other commandments that God requires of us today fall under those two – if we are loving one another we are not stealing, murdering, committing adultery, bearing false witness, etc. If we believe on the One God has sent, we are loving and honoring God and His Gift to us.

B) The Spirit does lead us into all truth. After the Work of Christ (the Cross, the Resurrection, the Ascension, and Christ’s Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood), that Truth is Who Christ is, what He came to do, what that actually accomplished, and who we are in Him. The Old Covenant, with its regulations and edicts has been rendered obsolete by the Work of Christ, and the Spirit leads us into THAT Truth \o/.

Those who walk according to the Spirit do walk in obedience – to the New Covenant.

You wrote that if any prophet or spirit compells us to ignore/disregard ANY of God’s commandments, then that prophet/spirit is NOT from God. I agree. Yet scores of Law ‘keeping’ teachers – HRM and the run-of-the-mill legalists – are out there doing just that. Keep this commandment, but that other commandment isn’t for now, claiming that no jot or tittle has passed while simultaneously claiming that some commandments are done away with in Christ. It’s doublemindedness in the classic sense.

Does the New Covenant command to love one another overlap with some Old Covenant commands? Of course, see above. But commands that God cares about today are fulfilled by loving one another, not be observing this or keeping that.

How do we discern false prophets? They will always point to one’s performance rather than God and what He has done in Christ. They will also always question, quantify, or parse the Deity of Christ. If they cannot say that Jesus is God, period, then they have a false theology to go with their false Jesus.

Thank you for your response. To clarify, I am NOT sanctified nor do I believe I will be sanctified by the Torah, it is because of Torah that I know right from wrong. It’s as simple as that. Since we both agree that we should NOT continue in Sin, shouldn’t we define what Sin is? Sin is the transgression of the Torah. How can we believe what Jesus said if we don’t believe what Moses wrote? If one doesn’t apply to us, how do we claim the other? The new covenant is with the house of Judah and the house of Israel. Either we are grafted into The olive tree (Israel) of which Jesus is the root, or we are NOT in covenant. Problems arise when we add to or take away from Gods word like the religious leaders of Jesus’ day, or the religious leaders of our day. There is nothing new under the sun. -grace and peace

Stumbled across your blog while doing some research. I like what you have to say here especially about the “Torah Observant” teaching. I am a Born Again Christian and have been more into the Charasmatic/Faith movement for the last 20 or so years but am more or less backslidden myself.

I met a lady a little over three months ago. Early on she told me she was Messianic but not Jewish. Of course I had to look this stuff up. All in all it didn’t seem too bad. She tries to follow Torah and also honors true Sabbath. We have been ok with all this. She seems quite knowledgeable of the Bible but seems more drawn to the Old Covenant rather the the New like I do.

She spends her time listening to mostly online type teachers especially from Solace Radio which call itself a Messianic/Hebrew roots website. Michael Rood is also one she follows. But I stumbled across some information about him just yesterday that shows he used to be a part of “The Way International”…a previous well known cult.

We listen to much of the teachings together. And they honestly have a lot of good things to say. When I say things have been going great with this lady I mean really great. We are so much alike in so many ways.

We were discussing Torah about a week ago and in one of my comments she felt I was making fun of Torah. Well she stewed over this and in a few days we had a discussion about that. This was a very nice soft spoken talk about how she felt. Then she dropped the bomb. She felt she could not be in a relationship with anyone unless they observed Torah and Sabbath. I was floored.

Needless this caused some distress in me. Of course in my search to try and find any scriptural basis for a Christian to observe Torah only led me to scripture after scripture in the Gospels that it is NOT required. I can honestly say that it is obvious to me as to the purpose of the shed blood on the Cross but when you have someone saying the Christ died to fulfill the old Covenant and see it as some of them do and still feel they can only be justified by following “the law”, it can be quite challenging to counter any claims.

We have discussed this and plan on doing Bible study together. I am finding it hard however to try and put myself in a place where I feel I am qualified to edge her back over from the Old Covenant perspective to the New Covenant teaching. I am praying the Holy Spirit will guide me. But the trouble is that she thinks the Holy Spirit guided her to be Torah Observant to begin with.

So sorry it took me so long to get back to you. I got distracted in another discussion and we’ve had two major home repairs going on this week (AC ducts and a new roof!) and this dropped off my radar screen.

The short answer is that Law ‘keepers’ are taught that the Holy Spirit has led them to Torah – for their instruction in righteousness. In other words, they believe that Torah is their road to sanctification. This, of course, is error, or the NT would be full of instructions telling those in Christ to keep Feasts, days, and dietary laws among others and to observe Torah outright. We do not find that in the writings to the Body of Christ, however.

Look up ‘sanctification’ in your concordance and see what you get =o).

As you go through NT Scriptures with her, notice the role of the Holy Spirit. Does He ever point us back to the Law for sanctification?

The key is always to remember who we are IN CHRIST. What does that mean? What did Christ accomplish at the Cross? Did He merely deal with the curse of the Law or did He deal with sin? If He dealt with sin, what does that mean to those who are cleansed by His Blood?

These are all very difficult questions for those who rely on Law for their sanctification (and in many cases preservation of their very salvation).

Stand on who you are IN CHRIST and get her to see who she is IN CHRIST. That reality changes everything when looking at whether or not those in Christ are bound to Law.

I want to comment on Bama’s sharing about this woman who listens to Michael Rood. I appreciate this website’s author not mentioning names of the false teachers, but instead concentrating on the false teaching itself. However, in this case, I’m thankful you mentioned this man by name.

I also work with a woman who listens to Michael Rood. She has been so mesmerized with his teachings that I was intrigued as to what was so awesome about his insights into the Hebrew. She told me to watch a certain weblink she sent me. But she warned me that this man would challenge everything I believed. That one comment had my ears really pricked. I just sensed something was amiss in the way she so uplifted this teacher.

As I considered watching the link, the Holy Spirit prompted me to ask my husband to join me in viewing it. He spoke “if a woman wants to learn anything, let her ask her husband at home.” Well, I found that a challenge as I had not felt it necessary to run everything I listened to and studied by my husband. But, I knew it was either listen to it with him or not listen to it at all.

We listened for 15 minutes to a man dressed in a long flowing robe, with a long beard, who outwardly appeared to be trying to look like a Jew. He claimed to be a Messianic Jew. My husband commented that we’ve listened to him for 15 minutes and he hasn’t mentioned one Scripture. Then, he dropped the bombshell. He said he was going to speak to students of bible prophesy, and that he was going to prophesy to all those in attendance. Then he said, “Thus saith the Lord, there is no such thing as a pretribulation rapture.” I was dumbfounded. For this woman knew that I had that hope and that I was a witness of this promise in conversations we had together.

So, it fit together — my husband and I marked this man as a false teacher and we weren’t going to listen to another word he had to say. But I became concerned for this sister in Christ and wanted to prepare before the Lord to be able to help her see that this man was in error. I have only begun to research him. The Lord laid the phrase “Hebraic Roots cult” in my spirit. It was in researching that phrase that I came to this link. Thank you for the spirit in which this subject is handled.

I have a dear sister in Christ who works for a Christian TV ministry. For many years she has shared how this or than man or woman of God is so filled with the Holy Spirit. She has wanted me to attend meetings with her and experience movements and anointings that she is so blessed to experience. However, that still small voice of the Holy Spirit speaks some caution to me, and I have no peace to enter into the rivers that so many are swimming in. I have done much research over the past 20 years, and I have found a common thread amongst all those in error and false teaching.

Not one single one of these men or women teach what Jesus and the Apostle Paul and Peter taught about His coming as a thief in the night for His Bride who has made herself ready. Not one single one of them teach the pre-tribulation rapture. I have come to understand that once a person begins to depart from grace, the Spirit of God will call to them and seek to woo them back. However, if they refuse to humble themselves to a brother or sister who God sends to teach them, to disciple them, then little by little spiritual blindness comes upon them. This in itself is the judgment of God for their rejection of truth that He sent to deliver them.

Seek meekness so that we may be hid in the day of the Lord’s wrath. It takes a great deal of meekness to consider the words of the Lord that another brother or sister may be sent by Him to speak to us. There is nothing to fear in humbling ourselves to one another, but everything to fear if we refuse to humble ourselves. God, grant us grace to be those who seek peace and pursue it, loving the souls of men enough to do all we can to pull them out of the fire. In Jesus’ Name

You make some interesting points about commonalities in false teachers and teachings on the rapture.

That said, I have dear brothers and sisters in Christ who hold different views on the order of end times events. I do hear what you’re saying though. The belief that sacrifices will be re-instituted in the Millennium is a big belief in the Hebrew Roots Movement. I’m actually working on a post about that now. Here’s an excerpt about keeping perspective:

NONE of the end-times doctrines out there constitute core issues beyond the fact that Jesus IS coming back and there WILL be judgement for both the redeemed and the unredeemed. Everything else is speculation on our parts and anyone who tells you they have it all figured out beyond doubt is fibbing.

That said, I’m completely comfortable stating that I don’t have the end-times timeline all figured out. I’m a “pan-tribber” and “pan-Millennialist” with pre-trib leanings. That is, I figure God has it all worked out and knows what He’s doing and it will all pan out in the end. My job is to be faithful to what He has called me in this lifetime, whatever that may bring, all the while keeping in sight the completed work of Christ at the Cross and measuring everything through that lens.

Be sure to keep the core issues the core issues, and not let the secondary issues be an area of division in the Body =o).

I am thrilled to have found this site a few weeks ago. It has helped me greatly to understand how my son continues to be strangled and held up in the Law and Torah Keeping. The more I study, the more I learn and it makes me realize how dangerous this type of Law Doctrine can be. I found myself filled with anger and completely distrought. How can one group of people lead my 26 year old son down this path so easily? He was and is indeed seeking and searching, thats obvious. I have been overwelmed with guilt and have been blaming myself quite a bit. Telling myself, if I had only been a better Christian, a better mom etc. However studying the Law Keepers & Torah Keepers Doctrine (most of them are all the same, just different names) I realize that no matter what mistakes I may have made as a mother, I am not to blame for what is happening to my child.

These people have an agenda and they know how to pull the strings. All I can do is pray and continue to love my son with the understanding of how and why he got to this place of Law. My goal is to bring him back to Christ freely and willingly in hopes that one day he will see that the Laws he is trying to keep steers him away not only from his family but ultimately from Christ.

I will keep your son in my prayers. One thing that has really struck me about the HRM is the division that it causes in the Body of Christ – in local bodies and in families. You are not alone, unfortunately, and others reading here are going through similar circumstances with their loved-ones. Reinforce the Gospel with your son, love him well, pray pray pray, and leave the rest to God.

Thought I could make some more inputs now. In some of the discussions with my girlfriend I have gleaned a little more into the mindset of a Messianic.

Over the months a few times Jesus was brought up by me she mentioned that “you know Jesus is God?” But it was the way she said it made me wonder just what she meant. Generally I didn’t get into much of a discussion about this stuff as I was still in learning mode and just couldn’t find a way to convince her. So I mostly bided my time.

One day a few months ago the issue of the Trinity came up. She asked me what I thought about it. The way she asked it was she admitted a little confused. As I always had said well they are the same but they are different. Basically I admitted my belief in God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. I don’t think was was sure what to express. This of course led to a discussion about the faith in general. This is when I learned how she viewed Christianity. She felt as has been mentioned here that Christianity is a corrupted view of what God had intended. She even expressed a distain for Christians. I thought WOW. How far does this Messianic view take her?

So she read some things and then professed that she agreed with him. Wow how far must one be drawn to believe like that?

One of the other things I learned, from her perspective anyway, was that Jesus died to send the Holy Ghost to make it easier for us to follow Torah.

She has made fun of Grace. Thinks Paul is rather arrogant. I had her read Galations chapter 3, I think it was, one time and at least that got her to thinking. I thought perhaps I’m making some headway.

Another thing she has been taught is that in the early Church most if not all of the new converts were Hebrews. This really didn’t become an issue until the Gentiles began converting or being accepted into the Faith. In Acts chapter 15 we read of The Council at Jerusalem. From this it was determined that, for the Gentiles at least, following the Law of Moses was not to be a requirement. But my girlfriends take on this was that yes it was determined that it would not be a requirement initially as it would have been a burden however they(the new Gentile converts) were to seek learning in their local synagogues to learn Torah. Funny but I simply cannot find that anywhere in my Bible.

I finished the Book of Acts last night. One thing that stood out to me was in Chapter 21. Here it is made clear that Paul plainly taught not only to the Gentiles but to the Jews as well to NOT follow Torah anymore. NASB quote[20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many [d]thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to [e]walk according to the customs.]end quote

Don’t think it can be any more clear. Well unless of course you reject the teachings of Paul like so many Messianics do.

I find it also interesting that several Books and Chapters in the New Testament seem to be specifically written to counter the push by the Hebrews/Jews of the day for others to continue in Torah and Old Covenant law even in the face of such evidence against it. I had never read it that way but when reading scripture with what the Messianics seem to believe in I can see it clearly now.

This site has been such a blessing to me. I know my eyes have been opened even more so.

Another of my (ex girlfriend now) discussions that I remember was her saying how God never changes. That of course was another reason they use to continue to try and follow the law. I didn’t think of a comeback at that time but did later, that I was never able to share with her. But that got me to thinking. If God never changes then why was Abraham not under any Law. His was based on the Faith in God’s Covenant with him. Nor was Noah. Nor Adam. So if God never changes then why did he give the Hebrews the Law/Torah through Moses? Obviously something changed. Was it God or was it man?

Then she commented she would compare what was said in the New Testament to what was said in the Old. If there was a difference she would refer to the Old over the New.

My father was Pastor Dick Owen, of Park Presidio Bible Church, in San Francisco. The previous pastor of the church was a Jewish believer, Jerry Fleischer, whose daughter is or was the “rabbi” of a J4J-affiliated congregation in north London. In the early 70s, the National Association of Evangelicals asked my dad to check out and see if this crazy little organization called Jews For Jesus was a cult or not. He reported back that not only were they not a cult, “they” were “us!” This established a long friendship between he and Moishe Rosen, and he had the honor of using his gift for teaching to set J4J all on the same theological page. In the course of this, many Jewish believers became part of PPBC, including Eric & Terry of the Galilee Experience (my dad did their wedding). Later, I had the privilege of meeting Art Katz, whose preaching and writings I enjoyed very much. From 2002 to 2009, I lived on the Mount of Olives, and spent much time in the Old City (and at the Emmanuel Book Shop near Jaffa Gate, next to Christ Church). It was there that I first encountered the ever-multiplying adherents of the JERM (Jewish-Ephriamite Roots Movement), and some of its expositors, such as Michael Rood and Don Esposito. It’s a little more relaxed, spiritually, here in Greenville, but once more, I’m happy to have found this website. I whole-heartedly agree with the “this is what this site is about” sidebar. I would often tell people “Look, it’s OK to keep the Law, and if this is what the Spirit is leading you to do, do it, but if not, that’s OK, but be careful, because even hungering after righteousness can turn into a kind of lust.” Ah well. So here I am.

If you’re addressing JGIG, I never have ‘kept’ Old Covenant Feasts, days, and dietary laws. Several people that I knew were teaching Torah observance and as I examined what they were teaching, I found it to be contrary to the New Covenant forged in the Blood of Christ.

Feel free to comment here, Lucy, but all caps in comments or on forums is considered to be yelling or shouting – so please don’t, or your comments will not be approved in the future. Thanks.

In the first four chapters of Revelations we are told that God has 7 spirits Not 3.
Yeshua has already fulfilled the first three feasts and will fulfill the fall feasts soon. Perhaps we should know what they are.
When God tells us in Revelations that those who do not practice His sabbath will receive no rain but receive plagues, I believe He is the same yesterday, today and forever and He cares about His 7th day Sabbath now.
When he says we are grafted in we are just that. Grafted into the one olive tree not 2 trees. As He says, one Lord one faith One baptism. We are not to add to or subtract from His commandments, not change them. When God speaks of His return and His disgust at those eating the flesh of swine in Isaiah 65 I believe that is in keeping with 2 James where we show our faith by our works. Saved by faith yes but the fruit testifies to salvation. Torah pursuant? You bet!

It’s ironic to me that so many who deny the concept of the Trinity often attribute numbers far in excess of three to describe God.

As for Jesus fulfilling the Feasts, I think He already has. First, in Matthew 5:17-18 Jesus says this:

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Jesus said that He came to fulfill both the Law and the Prophets; then goes on to say that nothing from the Law will disappear until everything [in the Law] was fulfilled. What did He say He came to do? Fulfill. He did fulfill the Law; the Prophets will also be fulfilled, Messianic prophecies already being fulfilled, though all of the Final Things have not played out in history yet.

You’re assuming that Jesus has not yet fulfilled some of the Feasts:

Is Jesus the fulfillment of the shadows or isn’t He?

Either He is or He is not. There is no middle ground on that one.

Did He come? (Tabernacles, Trumpets)

Did He do the work of the Cross? (Passover, Day of Atonement)

Did He rise from the dead? (Firstfruits)

Did He Ascend to the Father? (During Feast of Weeks)

Did He send His Holy Spirit? (Pentecost and Tabernacles, as we are now the Temple of God)

Reread Mt. 5:17 and 18 together:
17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

So did He fulfill the Law or did He lie?

The Law itself has been rendered obsolete in Christ (Heb. 8:13) because of His completed Work of the Cross, the Resurrection, the Ascension, and the sending of His Holy Spirit at Pentecost. Does the Law still exist? Yes. And it stands against those who are not in Christ, pointing out their sin and pointing them to Christ. When one comes to Christ, this happens:

Romans 7:4-6
. . . you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5For when we were in the realm of the flesh,a the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

The Law still stands in opposition to those who are not in Christ (those who have not died with Christ and to the Law), but for those in Christ – we have nothing to do with the Law anymore!

Romans 10:1-12
1Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

5For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. 6But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) 7Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

There is so much more about how for those in Christ there is no Law – Hebrews goes into the depths of that truth and why. Here’s a good teaching titled, ‘The Wonder of Our Great High Priest‘ that clarifies the difference of priesthood/law for those in Christ.

So we come to the place where the Law is good if one uses it properly:
1 Timothy 1:8-11
8But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; 9Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; 11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

So according to the Gospel – the Law is only for those described above: the unrighteous, the lawless and disobedient, the ungodly, sinners, the unholy and profane, murderers, whoremongers, etc.

How do the Scriptures describe those who are in Christ?

1 Corinthians 1:30-31 (NLT)
30God has united you with Christ Jesus. For our benefit God made him to be wisdom itself. Christ made us right with God; he made us pure and holy, and he freed us from sin. 31Therefore, as the Scriptures say, “If you want to boast, boast only about the Lord.”

2 Corinthians 5:16-21 (ESV)
16From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Hebrews 10:8-10 (NIV)
8First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

The New Covenant Scriptures are full of statements about those who are in Christ, and none of them match up with what Timothy has to say about to whom the Law applies after the fulfilling work of Christ. If one is in Christ, the Law has nothing to do with us, and we have nothing to do with the Law:

Galatians 5:13-26
13You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh ; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

16So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

Your claiming that ALL the law and prophets have been fullfilled? Are there not many prophesies about the messiah Ben David? What we call the second coming? He said that NOTHING will pass from the law until ALL is fullfilled. He did not say that once something is fullfilled it is done while we await the next fulfillment. Therefore if some prophesies remain unfullfilled, then ALL of His commandments are intact. And whoever breaks the least and teaches others to do likewise will be called least.

I’m curious since you seem to be keen on being Torah pursuant by keeping Sabbath and not eating unclean foods. Do you also follow the Torah as it pertains in Leviticus 15? Do you separate yourself for 7 days during the time of your menstrual cycle? I mean it is pretty clear that you are unclean and just about everything you touch is also made unclean. Or do you consider this some kind of ceremonial law that doesn’t have to be followed? It is quite obvious this was not some ceremony being pursued here. And if by chance you do consider this to be ceremonial then why are the dietary laws being followed? They are not part of the “10” commandments so why follow them as well?

You say “one Lord, one Faith, one Baptism” What about Genesis 9:3(NKJV) “Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herbs.” Seems to me that God, a long time prior to the Law of Moses, allowed man to eat of all flesh. So if God is the same then what is he doing? Saying it’s okay prior to Sinai but then not okay after Sinai? If so then perhaps He might sometime have a change of mind or heart.

Under the Law of Moses a man was put to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath. Under the Law of Grace Jesus died for our sins, all of our sins.

Here’s something to think about…..
The Law(Old Covenant) vs Grace(New Covenant)
Under Law, if the unclean touch the clean, the clean become unclean.
Under Grace, if the clean touch the unclean, the unclean become the clean!
Under Law, sin is contagious.
Under Grace, Righteousness is contagious!

Under the Old Covenant you were made righteous because of what YOU did. Under the New Covenant you were made righteous because of what HE did. If you’re a Believer, live like you ARE righteous because of Him and what He did for you. Not for what you think you have to do for Him. He already paid the FULL price.

By putting yourself under the Law, ministry of condemnation, are you not denying what Christ purchased for you on the Cross? Or do you not believe the words of Paul as many other law keepers? How convenient! Like many other law keepers you just do not understand the reason the Law was given in the first place.

I suggest you read about Abram/Abraham and see how he was made righteous long before Sinai and the Law was given. Remember what Galatians 2:21 says “I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”

Your question is flawed: “Does the New Testament ever tell us to disobey other parts of God’s Word?”

You yourself would admit that there are certain parts of God’s Law that you should not obey such as the priest’s duties and laws for women related to childbirth and menses. Now let’s look other commands that God has given throughout time; build an ark, kill Philistines, put Sabbath-breakers to death, sacrifice animals, etc., etc.

Who is questioning where the ‘line’ of obedience/disobedience is? Spend some time reading through JGIG and you’ll see that the Law of Christ is stressed here; Love God, love others. Love fulfills the Law; it is worshipping in Spirit and Truth, not via the letter of the Old Covenant but in the Spirit of the New Covenant.

As for covenantal blessings, they are not taught in the NT; instead the concept of sowing and reaping, and that not tied to the observance of law but to acts of obedience to God’s leading by His Spirit: “If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.” (Gal. 5:18)

1 Corinthians 13
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Clayton, with all due respect, I’m curious why you chose to ignore most of JGIGs response on obeying the Law. Not have a satisfactory answer? Or are you doing with this what you law keepers do with the parts of the Law you choose to ignore or unable to follow? Act like it doesn’t exist? JGIG posted some pertinent info.

Love is indeed important….the most important fact of the New Testament and the Ministry of Jesus. With Torah….not so much. Reread Numbers 15: 32-36. A man was stoned to death simply for picking up sticks on Sabbath. What kind of Love are we supposed to be learning from this? Are you saying on one hand God sent His Son to die for our sins but chooses to have someone stoned to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath?

You do realize that the Cross was the single most important event in history of mankind. Do you think anything changed with that important event?

Do you believe in the writings of Paul? How was Abraham made righteous over 400 years before the Law(Torah) was given on Mt Sinai?

I am speechless at some of the comments on this thread. Accusing God of being unloving?! Claiming love started with Jesus… Jesus did not start a new teaching, but was correcting bad doctrine. Leviticus 19 clearly instructs us to LOVE our neighbor! 18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD. Please Please stop blaspheming against the creator of the universe when you accuse Him of injustice and being unloving.

Sorry JGIG, I forget that the replies don’t always line up in these responses. I was responding to Bama who said “Love is indeed important….the most important fact of the New Testament and the Ministry of Jesus. With Torah….not so much. Reread Numbers 15: 32-36. A man was stoned to death simply for picking up sticks on Sabbath. ” The clear accusation I receive from statements like these is that Old Testament=unloving=unjust, New Testament=loving=Justice… If Bama doesn’t mean to suggest such an idea, maybe he/she can clarify and admit that these comments do suggest such doctrines as an unloving and unjust God.

Ben…first of all my post you are referencing was made over 3 years ago. Part of my understanding of the Law of Moses is the reason it was given to begin with. Was it given out of love? Sure it was. God loves all his children. But the Laws themselves(not just the 10 but eventually all 613 of them) sometime have to be seen as tough love, for a better word.

Take my example of stoning on the Sabbath from the LoM(Law of Moses)….this person was stoned to death on the direct direction of God. At least according to scripture. Now fast forward to the time Jesus walked and the woman caught in the very act of adultery was brought before Jesus. By the Law she was to be stoned to death. Jesus understood how they were trying to trap him. In the end Jesus showed her true Biblical love. Some may ask however was Jesus not following the Law here? It was in the Law at the time she was to be stoned. That was clear.

So back to my point….why was the Law given in the first place? Read Exodus 19, the chapter before where the law was given. The Hebrews were told by Moses of what God wanted from them and their response All that God has spoken we will do. Did something in their response cause God to shift his view/plan? Because after they answered now all of a sudden they were told do not touch the mountain or else you will die. This is after bringing them out of bondage and traveling the approx 50 days to the bottom of mount Sinah and blessing and feeding them, providing warmth by night and coolness by day the whole journey. Everytime they murmured(which was a sin) He blessed them.

My interpretation is the Hebrew response was somewhat a prideful response in that they felt they were more than able to follow God commands. i.e self-righteousness. Was this not the very thing that got Adam in trouble?

So my take is the reason the Law was given was to bring man to the end of himself. As in you simply cannot follow God’s rules. It is absolutely impossible. Yes that was out of love, tough love though. As some of the rules under the Law were quite brutal at times. But again this brutatlity was to show man that it was impossible. That was the point.

I am thanking God for this website…..I have a daughter that is caught up in this….and the Holy Spirit has told me to talk to her and to let her know that Jesus came and did a finished work……..I prayed for her, and didnt know how to find more info. on this until the Holy Spirit led me to this site…..That I am thanking God for….I am now more informed to what my daughter is invovled in…….and printed off the info. and gave it to her…..and asked her to read and she said she would read it……I love her and raise her in the church……..Please keep her in your prayers that The Lord Jesus Christ will l lead her into all truth…..Once again thank you for this infomation…….

“If you think that you need to do those things to be obedient to God, be blessed by Him, because if you don’t, there will be consequences, or tell other Christians that they should be Torah Observant/Pursuant and if they don’t they’re disobeying the commands of God, then I think you’re out of bounds.”
{ (1)So, the feasts that God said to do, if you aren’t doing that, you aren’t disobeying? How odd. (2)The Torah is the Law of God, so if you don’t even know what it says, how can you obey it. }
I mean, seriously, all you people who want to cling on to your tradition, and not believe what the word of God says. I mean, even christmas and easter are pagan holidays. I mean, seriously, like Booker, the “Holy Spirit” has told you to talk to her, remember that Yeshua WAS Jewish, Yes, he did save us and free us from the condemnation of the Law, but we are still to observe the Law and try to obey John 14:15. All of you are afraid of being legalistic that you have become lawless, people!

Romans 7:4-6
4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Galatians 5:18
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

Justification =Christ paid for our sins through his precious blood once and for all (no take backs)
Sanctification =forgiveness of our daily and future sins
Glorification =our ultimate glorification to the Father through Christ

Because we are saved we don’t have a license to sin, so how do we know the borders of our christian walk to keep that sanctification? The Father has given us in His Word what constitutes sin and by the guidance by the Holy Spirit. I think Paul says it best; Romans 7:7-25 KJV

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Yes – Paul lists some truths about the Law in the balance of Romans 7:

Law stirs up sin:

Romans 7:7-8 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.

Law produces death:

Romans 7:9-11 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it [the commandment] killed me.

Law produces fruit unto death:

Romans 7:5 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.

Here are a couple more truths about what the Law, also written by Paul:

Law was given to increase sin:

Romans 5:20
20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase.

Law is the power of sin:

1 Corinthians 15:56
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

“The Reformation initiated by Luther went to the heart of what he called the Babylonian captivity of the church. Just as Paul observed that Israel did not find the righteousness it was looking for because it was seeking it by works rather through faith in Christ, the Reformers knew that genuine transformation- that is, sanctification in Christ- can only be the result of abandoning one’s own righteousness and being found in Christ”. ~ Michael Horton, Christless Christianity

Mormons, Muslims, moralistic atheists, even liberals (really, every religion in the world) share the belief that the law (whether it’s God’s law or their own law) can perfect us, but true christians don’t. Christians know that the law can’t save us; what we need is a Savior. We need a Savior because every one of us has already demonstrated that we don’t respond well to rules (Romans 3:23). We’ve been given a perfect law but none of us-no, not one- has obeyed it (Romans 3:10).

Confused with faith as the means of inheriting God’s gift, our “good works” becomes the most offensive sin against God. But when faith alone receives the gift, it immediately begins to yield the fruit of righteousness.

“Holiness is nothing but the implanting, writing and realizing of the Gospel in our souls”. ~John Owen on sanctification (John 17:17)

First I’d like to ask you…Whom do you think is more important, Moses or Paul? You don’t have to answer. Just think on that.

You seem very convinced that we are to follow the Law of Moses. By not following the Law(Torah) we are being disobedient. I will give you that but only under circumstances. Just what might these circumstances be however?

How about this….How was Abram made Righteous? Abram lived over 400 years before the Law was given on Mt Sinai. I use the name Abram as the Bible says Abram was made Righteous in God’s eyes before his name was changed to Abraham. Long before he offered his son Isaac on the mountain. What do you think Abram did to earn his Righteous standing with God….long before the Law was given?

Now why do you think God gave the Law to the Hebrews on Mt Sinai? Abram was Righteous without the Law. Why did the Hebrews need the Law? What changed if anything? We need to remember also that there were approx 613 Mitzvot commands. The Ten Commandments plus another 603 some odd commands. And I know since you’re Torah Observant you surely follow all of them correct? Otherwise you wouldn’t want to be disobeying God Laws right? For an example you DO cause your wife/daughter/sister/etc to follow Gods law as prescribed in Leviticus 15 as they are considered unclean during “that time of the month”. Heaven forbid you wouldn’t want to be touched by anything God considers unclean for then you would be considered unclean. That is God’s law don’t forget. Are you making an annual trip to the Temple? Oh that’s right there is no Temple. How about the last time you made a blood sacrifice? Okay let’s expound on that.

Do you understand the purpose of the blood sacrifices under the Law of Moses(Torah)? The shedding of blood would cover the sins for one year. How did this happen? Well the person would bring in the “unblemished” animal to offer as a sacrifice for their sins. When presented to the Priest, the Priest would examine the animal to ensure it was perfect, no blemishes, to be used for the sacrifice. The Priest did not care about the condition of the one bringing in the sacrificial offering. It was the animal that was examined. The person would then put his hands on the animals head. As the blood was shed the persons sin(s) were transferred and the animals righteousness was transferred to the person. Of course you also know this was a shadow of the coming Messiah right? The one who would become the ultimate, last sacrificial Lamb.

Now let’s see what Paul, through the leading of the Holy Spirit, calls the Law of Moses. Galatians 3:13 reads: Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law. Wow, Paul calls the Law a curse. So the man who wrote 2/3s of the New(not Renewed) Covenant has some pretty strong words for the Law of Moses doesn’t he! Perhaps it would be a good idea for you to read the whole book of Galatians. And be aware while reading it what Paul was writing to the Galatians about. Here’s a hint: It was Law vs Grace. Either you will get it or you won’t. Either a veil will remain or it won’t. You will either understand or not how the Hebrews/Jews to this day still have a veil over their eyes.

How about the teachings of Jesus, Yeshuah Himself. In Matthew 9:17 He said…Nor do they put new wine into old wineskins, or else the wineskins break, the wine is spilled, and the wineskins are ruined. But they put new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.” You do understand what He was talking about there right? The old wineskin obviously being the Old Law of Moses.

As far as John 14:15 goes, I think you need to pay more attention to the writings of Paul to understand what John meant. And really pay attention to Jesus` words and what He was actually teaching.

Let me leave you with this thought. Following the Law of Moses is a great idea for a non Believer for the same reasons the Law was given to the Hebrews on Mt Sinai. For a Believer…in my opinion not so much. By Believer I mean one who believes that Christ is the son of God, was born of the Flesh, died and arose for our sins. According to scripture Christ died for our sins. He was made to suffer for our sins so that we might become Righteous and be redeemed from the Curse of the Law. So if one considers themself a Believer but chooses to keep themself under “The Curse of the Law” are you now denying what Christ actually did for you by dying on the Cross? If that is the case then who is actually being disobedient?

My friend the scriptures are quite clear. God does Love you either way. We know your heart is in the right place.

The Cross was the most significant event in the history of the world. It’s Mt Sinai vs Mt Zion. Where do you choose to be?

Oh and I wanted to add I agree that Christmas and Easter are more leaning towards a pagan holiday. But you might be surprised to know that so is Hanukkah. Probably even more so. Betcha that gives you the hibbeejebees. lol

There are a lot of actions and things we need to know and do in order to be obedient to Yahshua; first: experiment from our hearts that promise of Jeremiah 17:9-10; second: confese daily our flesh nature we see in the screen of the mind called THOUGHTS AGAINST TORAH; third: cover imagination and thoughts against torah with Yahshuas’s blood and fourth: receive Yahshua’s blessing toward us through the fruit of the Holy spirit. AND THIS HAS TO BE DONE EVERY DAY OF OUR LIVES IN ORDER TO BE OBEDIENT FROM INSIDE OUT.!

Even though your comment has nothing to do with the post on which you chose to put your statement, I approved it anyway, because I have to ask: Where are you getting this stuff? It has nothing to do with the Gospel of the forgiveness of sins and the New Life that we have in Christ.

Thoughts against Torah? Are we, in your view, to pledge some sort of loyalty to a written history/law?

You’ve taken what is a free gift from God (righteousness, Romans chapters 3 and 5) and turned them into a bizarre formula that you say we ‘MUST’ do!

I’ve been in the HR movement for 2 years. As I am beginning to doubt its teachings and am looking for the truth, I came across this blog.

The leadership of the group I was in put all of the members under severe pressure and misused their trust for their own bebefits ( to say the least…). People beacame dependant, but not unto Yeshua, but onto the leadership. I could no longer tolerate this, so I had to leave.
As I consider this a bad fruit I am beginning to doubt, if the whole tree is bad.

Please tell me your thoughts about what sin is? Is it not definded by Torah?

1.Why did John the Baptist call the people of Israel to respent? Should they not return to the teachings of Moses?

2. I am aware of the fact that there are higher commandments than others, like love and mercy is higher than bringing offerings and fasting (Isiah 55+56).

But how do you know what to keep and what not?

Don’t the Christians keep the 10 commandments, but do not keep Sabbath, e.g. (which is in the 10 commandments).
Christians quote text passages from OT and even keep some of Torah, but not all of it, like not going to sorcerers, e.g.
I am confused. “Thou shalt not kill” is a valid commandment, but others are not.
How do you discern right from wrong? I knwo that the Holy Spirit can lead you, but onlyaccording the the whole Bible.
So what is your idea on this?

My prayer is that God will reveal His Gospel of Grace to you as you re-evaluate what you believe.

You wrote, “Please tell me your thoughts about what sin is? Is it not definded by Torah?”

No doubt you’re referring to 1 John 3:4, which says, “4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.” Hebrew Roots doctrine says that ‘law’ in that verse is ‘Torah’ and refers to Old Covenant Law, the laws given through Moses to Israel at Sinai. The word that John uses for ‘law’ in that verse, however, does not support that view, but supports law in a general sense, not specific to the violation of Old Covenant Law. Law existed before Mosaic Covenant Law; law exists after Mosaic Covenant Law (see this short video). The question is which law are we as believers under; what does God require of us after the Work of Christ?

Well, what does John go on to say in 1 John 3?

1 John 3:21-24
21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

1 John 3:4 and 3:24 are often quoted by those in the HRM, but vs. 21-23 rarely are. Why? God’s commands are specified there: “And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.” It echoes the words of Yeshua in John 6:28-29 “28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” 29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

So we get a very different picture of what God says is sin and what God’s commands for those in Christ when we read John in context. In the HRM, every time the word ‘law’ or ‘commandment’ is seen, it is interpreted as Mosaic Covenant Law. That is simply not the case. To not observe Feasts, days, dietary laws, etc. is not sin in the New Covenant. In the New Covenant, we are required to believe on Christ and to love one another. That is what God requires according to the Scriptures.

You wrote, “Why did John the Baptist call the people of Israel to respent? Should they not return to the teachings of Moses?”

Yes, the baptism of John was a call back to Torah; they were still in the Old Covenant – the Work of Christ had not yet been done. It’s also important to remember that Christ preached the Law to those under the Law; again, the Work of the Cross, Resurrection, and Pentecost had not yet occurred. It was totally appropriate for Jesus to be preaching the Law. And He didn’t just preach it – He magnified it – He made it even harder to keep, adding motives of the heart to the rote, carnal observance of the Law. He was preparing the people for the New Covenant, the one that would be forged in His own Blood – that of Mercy and Grace and the complete forgiveness of sins – propitiation, not just atonement. Some call Jesus’ preaching ‘The Hard Words of Christ’. Yeah, they were hard! Jesus meant them to be! He was using the Law to point people to Him and to recognize the salvation that He would provide.

You wrote, “But how do you know what to keep and what not? Don’t the Christians keep the 10 commandments, but do not keep Sabbath, e.g. (which is in the 10 commandments). Christians quote text passages from OT and even keep some of Torah, but not all of it, like not going to sorcerers, e.g. I am confused. “Thou shalt not kill” is a valid commandment, but others are not. How do you discern right from wrong? I knwo that the Holy Spirit can lead you, but onlyaccording the the whole Bible. So what is your idea on this?”

Let’s go back to 1 John 3:23, “And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.”

A couple of things:
1) When one believes on Christ Jesus one is changed; they become a New Creation. God changes us! 2 Corinthians 5:17-21 says, “17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.”

2) If we are walking in love, we are not murdering, stealing, committing adultery, worshipping other gods, etc. Anything that God requires of us in Christ is fulfilled by loving one another:

Romans 13:8-14
8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

11 And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12 The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13 Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. 14 Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature.

Notice that we’re told to clothe ourselves with Christ, not with Law. I know that many in the HRM believe that Yeshua is the ‘Living Torah’, but that is not the case; Yeshua is the Living God – “For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form” (Col. 2:9), not just a partial expression of God such as Torah Law.

Here’s how it boils down, living according to Law vs. living according to the Spirit:

What are the results of a focus on Law for those in Christ?

Law stirs up sin:

Romans 7:7-8
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.

Law produces death:

Romans 7:9-11
9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it [the commandment] killed me.

Law produces fruit unto death:

Romans 7:5
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.

What are the results of a focus on Grace and the Spirit for those in Christ?

Grace teaches us godliness:

Titus 2:11-14
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12 It [grace] teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

The Spirit produces life:

Romans 8:5-6
5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace;

The Spirit produces the Fruits of the Spirit:

Galatians 5:22-25
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

So thankful to have found your blog. I almost became a “Torah follower” until Jesus radically stopped me in my tracks. I was becoming so legalistic! Now I’m learning that the hardest work of a Christian is being able to rest in Christ. The grace that I now have for myself and others, because of the grace the Lord has shown me, is so liberating. One of my favorite pastors is Pastor Tullian. I’m currently reading an excellent book by him called Jesus+Nothing=Everything. What he writes in his books and on his blog over at the Gospel Coalition are the same truths the Lord has been teaching me. I’m so, so thankful for Jesus and His glorious, rescuing Grace! It’s like I’m a different person now! Everything I do is done out of freedom now….freedom that can only be found in Christ.

Thanks so much for sharing your story. Let me know if you ever want to share an extended version for the Testimonial Page here at JGIG. Just email me at joyfullygrowingingrace at gmail dot com if you’re interested.

You mention Tullian Tchividjian – if you haven’t already seen it, here’s a really great teaching I came across that he did at a Liberty Univerity convocation: http://youtu.be/BjxncLN71Sk

Thank you so much! Yes I have seen that video. Thank you for the recommendation for The Naked Gospel. I love to read. I think Pastor Tullian might have recommended that book as well.

My husband & I have 4 boys and we happen to home school. For our home school curriculum we are reading through the book of Matthew this year. Once again I am shown how much our Lord hates legalism. It’s all about grace.

Another fabulous couple of books are Give Them Grace & Because He Loves Me by Elyse Fitzpatrick. I love the quote by Gerhard O. Forde “One can be addicted to either lawlessness or lawfulness. Theologically there is no difference since both break relationship with God, the giver”.

I also Love Michael Horton. The Law of Perfect Freedom is one of my all time favorite books!

Thank you so much! I would love to write a testimony. I’ve been meaning to write one for my blog as well. :-)

Was doing research on “Hebrew Roots” / “Christian Hebrew Roots” and found your website. Nice work you’re doing here. I have spent my entire life as a member of what I will call a “traditional Bible church” (IFCA) to be specific. Anyway in recent years I’ve become aware of both the “Grace Movement” , and the “Hebrew Roots” movement. Talk about two extreme positions…… For me the definition of a cult has alway been that it focuses on a perversion of either the person or work of Christ. I can’t really say that either of these groups fall into that category. One thing you will notice is that they seem to be wearing blinders when it comes to evaluating their beliefs as a part of the entire body of scripture. If a teaching can’t hold up under the examination of the whole scripture then it’s likely to be found false in the end.

If you’re doing research on Hebrew Roots/Christian Roots, my guess is Jim Staley’s teachings have crossed your path. Passion For Truth Ministries has recently changed their terminology from Hebrew Roots to Christian Roots, as more folks are becoming aware of the false teachings that run rampant in the Hebrew Roots Movement. In true cult form, PFT is simply manipulating the terms.

Thanks for your kind words about JGIG. I hope that it will prove to be a helpful resource to you as you evaluate what you’re dealing with.

You wrote “For me the definition of a cult has always been that it focuses on a perversion of either the person or work of Christ.”

Absolutely agree. And I can confidently tell you that the Hebrew Roots Movement does both. Most deny or greatly diminish the Deity of Christ, teaching that Yeshua is the ‘Living Torah’. I’ll have a post up about that issue at some point here at JGIG. They deny His Work simply by denying that the Old Covenant has been rendered obsolete by the Cross and His Perfect High Priesthood.

You also wrote, “One thing you will notice is that they seem to be wearing blinders when it comes to evaluating their beliefs as a part of the entire body of scripture. If a teaching can’t hold up under the examination of the whole scripture then it’s likely to be found false in the end.”

Agreed, though it’s not just the whole of the Scriptures but also the lens through which you choose to look at those Scriptures that makes a difference. Torah folk look at everything through a Law-lens. Grace folks (and I would classify myself as one of those) look at everything through the finished Work of Christ. Does that mean that as a ‘grace person’ that I think that sin is okay? No. You can read a very comprehensive post of my views on that here: Grace or Law? How Then, Shall We Live?

I’ve been examining the beliefs in the HRM for about eight years now, and the more I learn, the more the Gospel stands =o). It’s the most amazing thing – God has absolutely orchestrated His Word to always, Always, ALWAYS defend the Gospel. It’s very cool! And the more I study it out, the more evident it is to me that it is indeed a Gospel of Grace: 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. (from John 1)

I hope you enjoy reading here, and that you are built up and equipped in your walk with Christ.

Grace and peace,
-JGIG

Oh! I almost forgot! If it is Staley teachings that have crossed your path, there is a new page at JGIG as of today that gives one of his signature teachings a thorough going-through, as well as several related teachings and a critique of his ‘testimony’ of how PFT was started. Here’s the link:

Here’s the thing: Quit bickering against another believer! That’s purely the work of satan! We should love and accept other brethren, not ridicule them into a hole! There are so many people out there against Christians…ALL Christians. You’d think believers could at least get one of the commandments right “LOVE ONE ANOTHER”. Leave the criticizing to the faithless; let those of us who
believe agree to disagree but LOVE ONE ANOTHER and not to think more highly of himself than he/she ought to think. Take heed lest you too fall. Good grief, need I say more? We are all at different walks in our Christian lives. Let satan do what he does best; and let the Holy Spirit do His work.

Loving one another is speaking truth where there is a heresy. The Hebraic Roots followers are not following Christ. They are following the Torah. It’s works salvation. The Torah followers that I know do not even consider themselves Christians.

JGIG- THANK YOU for this blog! I became aware of the HRM because a family member is involved with Jim Staley’s Passion For Truth. I appreciate your thorough scriptural responses to questions & comments about Torah keeping. My belief- & that of our family- is that the Bible is the true & inspired word of God & is perfect exactly as it is, as a whole. I was shocked when I discovered what my dear cousin has become involved with.

I found out that my cousin is involved with HRM when I received an email from her that seemed to be written by a totally different person. Gone was the happy-go-lucky, bubbly college student who knew she was a sinner, loved Jesus because He paid for those sins, was always full of joy & love, & ended every sentence with an exclamation point. This message was very serious; formal & polite – which is not a bad thing at all except that it was so out of character that it was like one giant red flag. This change happened rather quickly, within a few months, & I am wondering if this kind of change has been observed in others new to HRM? (I know it’s a hallmark of someone in a cult, just wondering specifically about HRM)

The other change I saw in my cousin, who was adopted from Russia, is that she is now calling Russia her “home country” & stating that her birth name is her real name. Do you know if HRM or Jim Staley has any connection to Russia? It could just be a coincidence, but the timing makes me think there’s a connection.

Are there people calling themselves Hebrew Roots who mislead people? Certainly. The same can be said for Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, etc. We are where we are in our individual walks and you should be very slow to condemn something which you do not understand, and which your attempts at demonizing it prove that you have not studied deeply. I know, because I set out with all of my heart to disprove Messianic Judaism, only to find that it was the place to where YHVH was calling me. When I began the process, I did not know that my family was ethnically Jewish and had hidden their bloodline in an attempt to hide from anti-Semitic movements such as yours. That was revealed to me by my grandfather, after I had thoroughly searched out the Truth on the matter. You need to begin extending some of the grace in which you claim to be joyfully growing, because all I have found here are lies based in hatred for something that is far more pure than you realize.

I have to ask – where on this site are you seeing any demonizing going on? Anti-Semitism? Hatred? Nothing BUT lies? If you’re going to throw out accusations like that, you should be prepared to back them up with quotes and links from the posts you say contain them.

Did you even read the page on which you chose to comment, where I wrote, “To clarify: If you keep the Feasts of God and a seventh-day Sabbath because you find blessings there and a deeper understanding of God and Who He is, I think that’s fine. If you think that you need to do those things to be obedient to God, be blessed by Him, because if you don’t, there will be consequences, or tell other Christians that they should be Torah Observant/Pursuant and if they don’t they’re disobeying the commands of God, then I think you’re out of bounds.”

You write, “. . . all I have found here are lies based in hatred for something that is far more pure than you realize.”

Dear JGIG, just visited your site for the first time and I LOVE WHAT YOU ARE DOING!!! You are a woman after my own heart, God bless and you will now be in my daily prayers. I found your site because in pursuing a closer relationship with The Lord, I’ve been investigating messianic Judaism as a way to deepen my walk. I want to know, love, and serve The Lord with all my heart, mind , and soul, and I feel that observing the feasts and understanding them and the Hebrew traditions may lead me in a good way. Like you, I believe these are not commands but can certainly enhance a persons spiritual life. What I’ve read of yours so far, I wholly agree with, so I am excited to read more throughout the coming weeks and months. Thank you so much for what you are doing, and I can tell that you’re doing it in a spirit of love but with faith toward Jesus and the Word as well. It’s often difficult to be biblical but not legalistic, biblical but not seemingly “unloving” or “biased”, biblical but not seemingly “judgmental”, etc…….God bless you and please continue on……to Him be the glory, A,men!

I want to clarify for you this, however: It’s not through observing the Feasts where our understanding of Christ is enhanced – Feasts cannot be properly observed since the Death of Christ, when God tore the veil from top to bottom, rendering the Temple obsolete. By studying the shadows (Law, along with the Feasts, days, etc.), we can certainly appreciate the Work and Reality that is found in Christ. More effective still is to learn how to stand on who we are in Christ, communicated by the New Covenant writings.

hello! one of my cousins appears to be embracing a Torah observant life. She has been a very passionate believer since she has been a young adult, and most recently was involved in an Assemblies of God church (I also attended a Foursquare church and an Assemblies of God when I was a young adult). I am concerned about some of the things she has been saying on her Facebook page, and was not sure what it meant until I read your explanation. She was arguing with someone else about the meaning of Galatians. So, I thank you for your site and hope to gain more knowledge and also pray for her.

So glad you’ve found JGIG to be a helpful resource. Feel free to email me with any specific questions – I may be able to steer to the relevant articles here at JGIG. You can find my contact info under the About tab at the top of the site.

While it’s helpful to have a working knowledge of the Hebrew Roots Movement, rest in the fact that you don’t have to have it all figured out. The more effective approach is to be grounded in the simple Truths of the Gospel:

Who Jesus is
What He came to do
What that actually accomplished, and
Who we as believers are in Him.

The Audio and Text Resources option under the Media tab at the top of this site has lots of good resources for equipping the believer with who they are in Christ, with specific emphases on Old/New Covenant issues. I considered myself to be a pretty mature believer when the HRM crossed my path, and God was faithful in giving me discernment, but the unexpected blessing in testing the HRM was to see how God has orchestrated His Gospel to withstand every heresy. His Gospel will always, Always, ALWAYS stand \o/!

Thanks for your comment and know that I’ll be praying for your cousin and also for you as you interact with her.

Why are you protecting the corruption of the Gospel that the Apostles of Yeshua Ha Meshiach warned about. “The Apostasy,” is here just as it was fortold.
Before anything in the New Testament was penned, Yeshua stated, that “those who love Me will keep My Commandments.”
This is in direct reference to the Old Testament. God does not change! He and the Son want a peculair people! People who are obedient to Him.
I don’t want to continue heaping my burden of sin upon the One Who’s heart was broken on the cross for you, and for me.
Why would I want to bring my mistletoe to the Righteous Branch that you and I have been grafted into?
The fact that you have gone to the effort to publish your opinions contrary to scripture is kind of scary.
The Orthodox cummunity has done the same thing by creating there own standard ( Talmudic Thought) which justifies there twisting of scripture, and making it a burden for those who desire to be grafted in. I’m not saying all in Talmud is bad, I’m saying when they use it as an excuse to twist scripture it is sin.
In the Tanach, there was always a provision for those outside Israel to be grafted in, by accepting the standard of the household they were being adopted into–this has never changed–something to do with the unchanging nature of God, and His Son!
How can we become His peculiar people? It is only by the Ruach ( Holy Spirit ) that we can do anything.
By our own understanding and own efforts we fail every time.
The old sacrificial system was what was fulfilled at the cross, and Shortly there after the Temple was destroyed.
However, God’s standard has never changed!
Anything else is an Idol of our own making and is worthless!
Those who cry out to Him and surrender there hearts to Him will not be dissappointed.
My prayer is that everyone would receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Shalom.

You wrote, “Why are you protecting the corruption of the Gospel that the Apostles of Yeshua Ha Meshiach warned about. ‘The Apostasy,’ is here just as it was fortold. Before anything in the New Testament was penned, Yeshua stated, that ‘those who love Me will keep My Commandments.’ This is in direct reference to the Old Testament.”

How is me telling the story regarding the examination of the Hebrew Roots Movement ‘protecting apostasy?’ This blog is on a take it or leave it basis; my goal is to keep pointing people to Jesus and His Work and what that actually accomplished and who we who believe in Him are in Him.

As for Jesus statement in John 14:23 being a direct reference to the OT – um, no. Read back a few verses to John 13:34-35 to see how Jesus Himself defines His commandments: 34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

You wrote, “God does not change! He and the Son want a peculiar [sic] people! People who are obedient to Him.”

18 If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law (from Gal. 5).

Torah observance is not a prerequisite for obedience to God.

You wrote, “I don’t want to continue heaping my burden of sin upon the One Who’s heart was broken on the cross for you, and for me.”

Two things:

1. All sin was dealt with at the Cross. There is no ‘heaping’ that anyone can do – Jesus already dealt with the sins of the whole world once and for all (see Jn. 2, Heb. 10).
2. If reducing sin in your life is the goal, then relying on the Law to reduce sin won’t do it. Do a study on what Law produces vs. what Grace produces as far as sin is concerned.

You wrote, “Why would I want to bring my mistletoe to the Righteous Branch that you and I have been grafted into?”

Are you against believers having cats as pets? Egyptians worshipped cats and considered them to be gods. Kind of silly when you think about attaching paganism to having and caring for a pet cat or even having barn cats on a farm. Why? Because how we relate now to cats now has nothing to do with worshipping them, right? And even in times past there were people who had cats who did not worship them and consider them to be gods. Likewise, we don’t attach a past belief of some other people group or religion to our relationship to/with cats today, do we?

If your conscience prohibits you from hanging mistletoe, then don’t hang it. For me, it matters not one way or the other. Our family doesn’t – it’s just not a tradition that we do, and not for any particular reason. We do decorate our home with lights and an evergreen tree as we celebrate the Birth of Christ, but those things certainly aren’t objects of worship, any more than our pet cats are! So as much as I appreciate your poetic plea about ‘bringing mistletoe into the righteous branch that we’ve been grafted into’, when looked at realistically, mistletoe is just mistletoe – something that God created to be good – and hanging it up in doorways and sweethearts using it as a fun opportunity to have a smooch is harmless fun. As for what we’re grafted into – we’re grafted into the Root, Who is Christ, and I’m confident that unless you’re worshipping other gods, trees, wreaths, mistletoe, etc., all of which have decidedly NON-pagan meanings today, He does not take offense when we decorate our homes with such things.

You wrote, “The fact that you have gone to the effort to publish your opinions contrary to scripture is kind of scary.”

You’re taking the effort to publish your opinions which I believe are contrary to Scripture (Jesus referring to OT Law instead of His stated commandments in John 13) here, and I don’t find that scary in the least. Applying discernment and examining your belief alongside the Scriptures is what every believer is called to do, and that is what I do here. “Scary?” Why?

You wrote, “The [Jewish] Orthodox community [sic] has done the same thing by creating there [sic] own standard (Talmudic Thought) which justifies there [sic] twisting of scripture, and making it a burden for those who desire to be grafted in. I’m not saying all in Talmud is bad, I’m saying when they use it as an excuse to twist scripture it is sin.”

Talmudic ‘thought’ does the same thing as the Hebrew Roots Movement and other Law-keeping sects attempt to do – make the Law seem ‘keepable’. They water the Law down by adding to it and spiritualizing it using Jewish mysticism; Law-keeping sects water the Law down by picking and choosing what commands are convenient to ‘keep’ and spiritualizing the rest as ‘fulfilled’, while claiming that they believe that no jot or tittle has passed. And we’re not ‘grafted in’ to an obsolete Law; we’re grafted into the Living Messiah.

You wrote, “In the Tanach, there was always a provision for those outside Israel to be grafted in, by accepting the standard of the household they were being adopted into–this has never changed–something to do with the unchanging nature of God, and His Son!”

According to Judaism 101, there is no formal procedure of adoption in Jewish law. Before Christ, becoming a part of the people of God required the keeping of their Law. After the Cross, all people, whether of Israel of Gentiles (natural or wild branches, if you will), had to be grafted into the Life of Christ by faith. The grafting-in metaphor is one used in Scripture to describe how we come into Christ by faith, adoption another metaphor that describes our relationship with God after we enter into Christ by faith – we become as sons; co-heirs with Christ. There is none of that in the Torah; it is a New Covenant concept. The Old Covenant requires obedience or you’re out of the covenant; the New Covenant requires faith/belief in Christ, and then the bearing of Fruit which He produces in and through us. God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit do not change, as you say – God does, however, as is evidenced clearly in Scripture, relate to mankind in different ways at different times. And now that Christ has come and done His Work, everything must be filtered through His Work. He is a High Priest forever, and that of the New Covenant. The Old is never coming back.

You wrote, “How can we become His peculiar people? It is only by the Ruach ( Holy Spirit ) that we can do anything. By our own understanding and own efforts we fail every time.”

Which is why the Old Covenant Law, which made nothing perfect, had to go and the New Covenant in Christ, through whom all mankind is invited to relate to God was introduced:

18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God. (from Heb. 7)

You wrote, “The old sacrificial system was what was fulfilled at the cross, and Shortly there after the Temple was destroyed. However, God’s standard has never changed!
Anything else is an Idol of our own making and is worthless!
Those who cry out to Him and surrender there [sic] hearts to Him will not be disappointed [sic].
My prayer is that everyone would receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.”

Jesus said in Matt. 5 that He came to fulfill THE Law, period. Did He do it or did He lie? God’s standard never did change – His standard is perfect obedience, all the time under the Law. According to both Torah and New Covenant writings, if you do not obey everything God commanded all the time (that applies to you), you are cursed (see Ex. 23:13, Deut. 5:28-33, 8:1, 12:27-28, Gal. 3:10, James 2:10). Under Law, perfection is required; in Christ, He has perfected us (Heb. 10). And if we are in Christ and led by His Spirit, we are not under the Law (Gal. 5:18).

We can not be under Law and perfect as it requires, as evidenced by the thousands of years of mankind trying. And the Scriptures are clear – if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. Conversely, if you are under the Law, you are not led by the Spirit. I choose the Spirit, Who will never lead me into sin, will produce His Fruit in my life (love), which Scripture says fulfills the Law. THAT is a burden that is easy and a load that is light. That is REST.

In your reply you incorrectly stated that the concept of Adoption, or being “Grafted In” did not exist in the Tanakh ( Old Testament ). Avraham was told the provision for strangers attaching themselves to his household, Ruth was adopted in and redeemed by Close Kin of Naomi, there is the example of Rehab and Ebed-Melech. It is Orthodox Judaism that refutes this. I find it interesting that a Hyper Grace website would refer to Judaism 101 and challenge my adoption position in Tanach with Talmud.
My question for you is what was the Doctrine of the Nicolasians warned of repeatedly in the New Testament?
Also, who’s authority are you honoring if you will not even Honor something such as the Lord’s Sanctified Shabat as enumerated in the Ten Commandments, instituted at creation and observed by Yeshua HaMessiach.
Your position sounds kind of Nicolasian to me!
Thank You for a forum in which to debate.
Shalom!

Adoption in the Tanakh was rare and by Israelites not documented at all unless taking in widows/orphans of family members: Moses was adopted by Egyptians, Ruth adopted Naomi’s religion and ways, and I don’t know where you get that Ebed-Melech was adopted or where Abraham “was told the provision for strangers attaching themselves to his household” (???) The Tanakh, not Talmud, challenges your adoption position. And the concept of grafting in is solely a New Covenant concept, as Scripture proves.

The rest of what you posted makes the attempt to attach theology to me to which I do not hold instead of addressing the points made in my previous response to you.

As to why I don’t hold to the observance of a seventh day Sabbath, Romans 7:4-6 tells why: In Christ I have died to the Law in order to be joined to another, He Who has risen from the dead in order that I may bear fruit unto God. \o/ I don’t hold to the Law, I hold to the Living Christ, God in the flesh, Who leads me by His Spirit, and if I am led by the Spirit, I am not under the Law (see Galatians 5).

I was a member of Worldwide Church of God and kept elements of the Mosaic Covenant for 10 years.

One reason would be that we are not ancient Israelites to whom the Sabbath command was given. Even if we were, though, it doesn’t apply to anyone today as the Mosaic Law was temporary in nature. Galatians 3 clearly states this. It was added until Christ came.

The Mosaic Covenant was an agreement between God and the nation of Israel (Ex. 31:12-17). The Ten Commandments are a summary of the Mosaic Covenant (Ex 31:18, 34:28; Deut 4:13, 9:9, 11). The Mosaic Covenant is no longer in effect for anyone (2 Cor 3:4-18, Gal 3:17-25, Heb 8:13-9:4). The Sabbath, therefore, is not in effect for anyone (Gal 4:10, Rom 14:5-6, Col 2:16-17).

The Sabbath was a sign of the Mosaic Covenant between God and Israel (Ex. 31:16-17). A sign is an identifying mark, and the Sabbath identified the nation of Israel as distinct from the other nations. Christians are not parties to the Mosaic Covenant, which was between God and Israel.

Christians are under the New Covenant, which has higher demands and different commandments (Luke 22:20, Heb 9:15; Jn 13:34, 15:12, 17; Rom 13:10). The chief of those commandments is to love others as Christ loved us (Jn 13:34).

The main reason is because they practice the traditions of men taught as biblical doctrine. It is historical fact and boldly claimed by the Catholic church, that the observation of Sunday and not the Sabbath is the mark of their ecclesiastical authority. All scriptures used to support Sunday is therefore perverted to support the change that took place hundreds of years after they were written. Do the research!

Traditions of man are not what matter but what the Bible says, agreed.

In Christ, we are not about honoring a ‘day’, but about being in Christ and bearing His Fruit.

What is His Fruit? Love. How did Jesus/Yeshua tell us His disciples would be recognized?

By which day they ‘observe’?

No.

By their love.

We go to a fellowship that has grown from about 50 to about 300 over the past 20 years, and a couple of years ago we added a Saturday night service. Once per quarter we hold a combined service, on Sunday mornings/Saturday nights alternately. We attend Saturday service. Our teenagers like to go both Saturday and Sunday =o).

Are we more or less righteous based on which day we fellowship with other believers or ‘rest’?

No.

Our righteousness is found in Christ, not in a day.

For the Scriptural arguments regarding the Seventh-day Sabbath issue, check out the Articles Page here at JGIG and scroll down to ‘S’ and click on the links to several Sabbath articles there.

John 14: 21 states, “He who has My commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves Me…”Yeshua said in John 14: 24″ He who does not love Me does not keep my words…”
Paul, who you like to take out of context with “the Law was nailed to the cross” ( it was sin and death that was nailed to the cross), verifies the Law in Romans 3: 31 ” Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary we establish the Law.”
The only groups attempting to establish the Law are the Hebrew Roots followers, Adventists, and Messianic Jews which your site and many others are attacking.
I think you would certainly agree that once we accept the free gift of salvation, and surrender to Him, that there should be a growing process as we pick up our cross daily, until the day we depart from this old world–hence your title Joyfully Growing–my question is what should we be growing into? I kind of think that would be the image of Yeshua who perfectly kept the Law. In this way the “Law becomes our Tutor.”
Please consider.
Shalom!

Yep, there’s a growing process for believers APART from the Law. We who believe in Christ have DIED to the Law (see Rom. 7:4-6).

We don’t pick up our cross daily . . . that was a warning/foreshadowing given to the disciples before the Cross of Christ. We don’t die daily, and neither did Christ – He was nailed to the Cross ONE time and died, and in Christ, we were crucified with Him (see Gal. 2:19-21). The life we now live, we live in Him. And He is Risen \o/! And we are NEW Creations \o/! The Law was our tutor UNTIL we came to Christ. In Christ we die to the Law. No tutelage there possible from something we’re dead to!

I think that what needs to be said is this:
Paul is not equal to Jesus.

Paul is not even equal to the beloved Disciple. Why then are you basing your belief on one who contradicts himself? (Paul)
See Gal.5:6 and 1 Cor.7:19. In the one he says faith only in the other he says commandments.

Jesus said: I did not come to abolish the law…

End of story! You choose whom you believe.

You can try wangle it ANY way you want, His words Stand. He gave the 10 commandments, why would he take them away.

Only a changing God does that. For 4000 years the law worked, then for 2000 it does not, then in the millenium suddenly they keep the Sabbath again? Surely not.

If you wish to believe Paul above Jesus, so be it.

Read Revelation 2:2. What do you think that is about.

I challenge you publicly to show from scripture where God “un-sanctifies” the seventh day.

Mark, you are selective in what you pull out of and base your assertions on from the Scriptures.

Paul is not equal to Jesus – agreed.

Any contradiction you see is because you’re defining commandments as the Law given to Israel at Sinai. The Beloved Disciple, John, actually records how Jesus defines the work of God here: 28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” 29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” (from John 6), and clarifies the commandments of God after the Cross here: 23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. 24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us. (from 1 Jn. 3)

Based on the definition of God’s commandments after the Cross by John, we can read what Paul wrote and understand it easily, recognizing that he was making a point, not a contradiction:

Gal. 5:6 says “6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.”

In Christ, the Old Covenant (of which circumcision is a part) has no value, rather faith (in Christ – believe in the One God sent) and love (love one another) is what counts.

Sounds a bit confusing if you’re reading it through the lens of the Old Covenant, eh? After the Cross, however, what are God’s commands? I’ll refer you back to the Beloved Disciple, John, above. Again, Paul was making a point, not a contradiction.

Mark, first you said:
“Only a changing God does that. For 4000 years the law worked, then for 2000 it does not, then in the millenium suddenly they keep the Sabbath again? Surely not.”

From my recollection the law was given less than 2000 BC(~1850). Where are you coming up with the law worked for 4000 years? Are you suggesting the Law was from the beginning? Surely not!

As far as God (unsanctifying) the Sabbath, first you have to understand what he meant in the beginning when he said remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy. My take….the Sabbath was not meant as a “Day” but a mind set. God created Man last during the creation. In other words everything man needed was created before He created man. All man had to do was enjoy what God provided him. In other words Man only needed to “Rest” in what God provided. God would provide all is needs. Thus the term “Sabbath Rest.”

Let’s look at the 1st chapter of Isaiah. God speaking through the Prophet seems pretty put out by the the Hebrews. Even the Sabbath is mentioned. Now let’s go to Act 15. This is where it talks about the Jerusalum council. When it was all said and done there is no mention of keeping the Sabbath. None, Nothing, Nada. Could these first ones have gotten it wrong? After all it is in His Word…..right? I could go on about some of Paul’s letters.

And honestly if you are going to suggest that the Sabbath laws of the LoM are still in force then what about all of the 613 laws? Should they still be in affect as well? How about your annual trip to the Temple? How about separating yourself from your wife/daughters as required in Levitucus 15? After all they are considered unclean during that time of the month.

And since you mentioned going back to Sabbath worship during the millenial reign do you believe we going back to sacrifices too?

I’m still trying to get past ‘the Law worked’ bit. Jeremiah was clear – God recognized that Israel broke the Law!

I didn’t address this in my previous comment to Mark, but he’s making a big assumption that the Law will be in effect during the Millennium. First of all, he’s assuming a literal Millennium, which may or may not be the case, and second of all, he, in stating the Law with its Sabbath observance will be in place, is stating that Christ will no longer be the High Priest, which is in direct contradiction to Scripture.

Christ cannot be the High Priest over the Old Covenant Law – He is of the wrong tribe.

If the Law were coming back as some claim, then God lied when he made the following oath:

14 For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests. 15 And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, 16 one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is declared:

“You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.”

18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

20 And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, 21 but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him:

“The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind:
‘You are a priest forever.’”

22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant. (from Heb. 7)

So this is the real question: Is how we approach God all about the Law and our performance/adherence to it or is how we approach God all about Christ Jesus, Who, according to an oath made by God, is the ONLY and Permanent, Perfect High Priest of the New Covenant and drawing near to God in Him?

14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin. 16 Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need. (from Heb. 4)

Nowhere in scripture does it say that the Law is arbitrary. Nowhere does it say it is temporary. It actually says the opposite (in BOTH Testaments) the Law is Holy Righteous and Good, and will outlast Heaven and Earth. Instead of studying the commandments that David claimed gave him wisdom above his enemies, you put forth straw man arguments (the same petty snide remarks that atheists use). As far as sacrifices and the Sabbath during the millennium are concerned, consider Zechariah 14:
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

To get a full understanding of what that entails, I suggest studying the Torah (direct from God, faithfully written down by Moses). I have been studying it for about 4 years now, and I’ve discovered the idea that we will be studying it for eternity because it is so deep, and beautiful, and is how God has chosen to reveal Himself to us.
-Grace and Peace

5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. (from 1 Tim. 2)

Who is that Mediator?

From which tribe is He?

Does the Law speak of any priest of the Old Covenant being from that tribe?

If Christ cannot legally mediate the Old Covenant, what must we conclude?

Remember, there is only ONE God and ONE Mediator.

Who is it? Will He ever mediate the Old Covenant? Will Levites ever be established as priests again?

What does God tell us? What has He sworn as an oath?

11 If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood—and indeed the law given to the people established that priesthood—why was there still need for another priest to come, one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also. 13 He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar. 14 For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests. 15 And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, 16 one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is declared:

“You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.”

18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

20 And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, 21 but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him:

“The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind:
‘You are a priest forever.’”

22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant. (from Heb. 7)

Study the Old Covenant all you want, but it’s never coming back – ever. If it did, then God would be breaking His oath making Christ a Perfect High Priest forever. I don’t think He’s going to do that, do you?

Wait.. wasn’t Abraham the grandfather or Israel? So, at least two generations before Israel, God’s law existed?

Let’s take it even further…

Genesis 7: 2 “two of every clean animal and two of every unclean animal.”

Waaait a minute. So there were unclean and clean animals in Noahs day!?! A small aspect of God’s law? Wow.

As for the Sabbath:

Exodus 31: 16 “observe the Sabbath forever” < for the Israelite's alone you say. Israelite's = 12 tribes scattered abroad the world. Judah= Jew, hence Jesus Christ being a jew, or the "lion of Judah" a descendant from the tribe of Judah. So what about the other 11 tribes? Do they (being part of israel but not jews) need to observe God's commands or laws?

Do all of the instructions that God gave before Sinai apply to everyone from then on?

No.

God’s instruction to Noah to build the ark, for instance.

God’s instruction to Abram to sacrifice Isaac, for another example.

Taking instructions given to Pre-Israel Patriarchs and conflating them into Law to be kept by New Covenant Believers in Christ is error.

God’s instructions existed before Israel – and changed and were expanded upon at Sinai. After the Cross, God’s instructions again changed and were simplified – Believe on the One God sent and love one another (1 Jn. 3). That is God’s Law after the Cross. No more Feasts, Days, or Dietary laws – only one Law – Love. If we are loving one another, we are fulfilling everything that God requires of us.

The really cool thing? Love is not just a command – it is the Fruit of God’s Spirit within us – God does not demand what He does not also provide. You can read more about this concept here: Grace or Law? How Then, Shall We Live?

To compare the instructions that God gave to Israel and their decedents forever with the instructions that God gave Noah personally is intellectually dishonest. The commandments, statutes, precepts, instructions and judgements are ALWAYS referred to as forever, everlasting, throughout your generations, perpetual, etcetera (refer especially to Psalms 119). Nowhere does Moses or ANY prophet prophecy that YHWH’s commands will come to an end (including Jesus’s own words). If you claim that is what Paul is teaching, than you should be able to find OT verses to back it up because the Bareans tested EVERYTHING that Paul taught to the OT.
Following Gods commandments is the definition of love. Do not murder, do not steal, these are how we love our neighbor. Not bowing to idols, keeping the sabbath holy, these are how we love God, for He said if you love me, guard my commandments… For they are true, and perfect, and right, and good, and for OUR benefit (according to God). Shalom

To imply that the laws given to Israel at Sinai are eternal is intellectually dishonest.

Furthermore, to refer to the Law as eternally forever is to not be thinking like a Hebrew. See this short video for clarification on what that means:

As for the Bereans, Law-keepers commonly misrepresent just what the Bereans were testing that Paul was telling them. See this short video for clarification on that as well: https://youtu.be/Cp6TY9jvnsM

You say following God’s commands are the definition of love, yet when Scripture itself defines what love is, it does not refer to commandments at all, but defines God as love (1 Jn 4), and His commandments after the Cross as “Believe on the One God sent and love one another.” (see 1 Jn.3)

When describing what love is, 1 Cor. 13 does not one time refer to commandments but rather tells us this: “4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails.”

Love actually is a better than commandments. Love not only tells us to not murder, steal commit adultery, etc., but also to DO stuff like minister to needs of not only those in the Body of Christ but also to those outside of the Body – we have a desire to love others into God’s Kingdom! Love is FAR superior to Law in that it reaches out to those around us instead of isolating us from those around us.

Let’s throw in there that GRACE teaches us to say no to ungodliness in the New Covenant (see Titus 2), and it is a FAR better teacher than the Law, for the Law not only STIRS UP sinning, but it also brings condemnation! There is therefore NO condemnation for those in Christ (see Rom. 8)!

Mark, very good observation. Paul simply can’t Trump our Redeemer.
This type of theology negates most of the Old Testament, and all the Prophesy where Messiah reinstates His Law, Shabot, and Feasts. These are the same prophets who’s writtings were used to verify Yeshua as the Messiah to begin with, and there’s dozens of texts that show what He will reinstate, or “bring under the Rod” when he returns. The Roman and Greek influences stripped the Church of any similiarity of walking as He walked.
In Luke ch 24:44 Yeshua says “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”
We can share, but we don’t have to take the opposition personal because He will bring everything into His Subjection, and this is a promise we can count on!

The Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood of Christ makes your assertions impossible, Michael. The Old Covenant requires a Levitical preisthood, and it isn’t ever coming back according to an oath made by God making Christ a Priest forever.

And this is clear:

5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. (from 1 Tim. 2)

There will not be two priesthoods in effect in the future – there is ONE mediator, Christ, and again, His Priesthood is PERMANENT. You have to deny the High Priesthood of Christ to believe that the Old Covenant with all of its practices is coming back.

I grew up in the WCG (Worldwide Church of God), and then attended
regular Christian churches from the time I was 31 – 42.
Then I got involved with the HRM. Just lately, I noticed contradictions and inconsistencies in what our pastor/rabbi says and teaches. I am re-evaluating these teachings and pinning down what I really should believe (what the Bible really says). I am also examining the fruit I see in the congregation and our family. Now, I believe God is leading me back to the true gospel, as you have here.
I believe that I fell back into a legalistic type of congregation because I still wasn’t grounded solidly enough in orthodox Christianity.
I find that I have to go over and over the simple truth of the gospel or I become confused. I believe that much of this comes from the way I
was taught for the first 30 years of my life.

Growing up in a cult is very damaging. I so want to be absolutely grounded in what is really true. Thankfully, I did believe that Jesus is my Lord and Savior. I don’t know if everyone in WCG did, but I did.
So, please pray for me. Your website here does help, but there are things I need to UNLEARN and I’m not sure where God wants me to go (like to a church or a pastor) for help with that.
A major belief I was taught was that our church was probably the ONLY group of true Christians — everyone else were professing Christians– especially because they celebrate pagan holidays– Christmas and Easter. I do not want to have such an aversion to these holidays.
So, I’m wondering — is it even important that they come from pagan origins (if they really do)?

And, if it’s okay with you, I’d like to write a testimonial in the future,
as there are many more details I could add.

Thanks for your comment – it’s always so good to hear about someone coming to an understanding of who they are in Christ! Your story shows that the faith of a child did recognize the Gospel, veiled as it was in the WCG, and God has been faithful to bring that faith to fruition.

I’ll definitely pray that God continue to help you to sort through the truth and error that you grew up in. Exit and Support Network has a lot of resources available to help with sorting out the mind-game stuff, as well as sort through key false teachings/doctrines of the WCG. Here’s a link to their Child Survivors Page. They are critical of the leadership that eventually did break away from WCG doctrine, keeping the WCG name and then started Grace Communion International. Exit and Support Network claims that GCI carried some of the WCG heresy with them or have erred into too much grace, but I don’t find that to be the case when looking at their materials. As with anything, read with discernment! Here’s also a link to a documentary that was done when GRACE broke into the hearts and minds of some of the leadership at WCG and how that changed the organization: Called to be Free. The documentary was made before the leadership shed the WCG name and the GCI came into existence. At that point, those faithful to Armstrongism broke up into the many, many splinter groups we see today.

Christmas . . . you, in Christ, are free to celebrate His Birth and Resurrection – or not! It’s your choice – you are not mandated one way or the other in Scripture. There are several articles here at JGIG that can help you to sort out the issues and to come to an understanding where the traditions that are celebrated come from – and don’t come from – as well as the spiritual questions about the celebration of the Birth and Resurrection of Christ. Just go to the Articles Page (Article tab a the top of the JGIG site) at JGIG, scroll down to the letter ‘C’ for articles on Christmas, and the letter ‘E’ for articles on Easter.

You are welcome to submit a testimony here at JGIG – just go to the Contact JGIG page for the email address. Our family is tending to one of our children who is being treated for pediatric cancer for a season (that’s partly why no new content here for quite some time), so you have lots of time to sort it all through and write out what you’d like to relay to the readers here =o).

JGIG, if the old covenant doesn’t apply, then why is Paul constantly quoting from it, and using it to prove his points? If it is void (and never coming back) then whatever it says is irrelevant. Why does Jesus say that the Pharisees err? Because they know NOT the scriptures! Why did the Bareans search the Old Testament to prove Paul if Paul is teaching a new doctrine?! Please please use some God given logic (instead of religious dogma) to explain why? Paul doesn’t say some, he says ALL scripture (which includes the Torah) is profitable for instruction and correction. What does Torah mean? Instruction. ALL of Gods instructions are profitable for instruction and correction. Sela

1. Dead to the Old Covenant (Rom. 7, Gal. 2), and
2. In the New Covenant under a New Perfect, Permanent, High Priesthood

Paul uses the Old Covenant because it points to Christ – it foreshadows Christ. Christ is the Reality of what the Old Covenant points to, however. So while it is not binding on believers in Christ, the Old Covenant is useful for instruction. And it points unbelievers to Christ by pointing out their sin and to God’s perfect standard.

Jesus did say the Pharisees erred – they were trying to make the Law seem ‘keepable’ by adding to it. In much the same way, the HRM and Torah Pursuant (love that, not observant, but pursuant, as if Scripture allows for that!) do the same thing by making the Law seem ‘keepable’ by watering it down – picking and choosing, trying to make the Old Covenant ‘renewed’ and engaging in a mixing of the two covenants, something which the Scriptures do not make any allowances for. The changing of the priesthood by an oath from God makes that completely clear (see Hebrews 7-10) – the Old has been replaced by the New, with a Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood, which means the New Covenant is here to stay and the Old is never coming back.

If you’re going to choose to live under the Old Covenant, do it! But really do it! Obey every command as it was given by God to Israel at Sinai. Don’t filter what is written through the teachings of today’s Law ‘teachers’, who have to perform so many Scriptural acrobatics to make the Law seem ‘keepable’ today.

21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? (from Gal. 4)

3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer 4 or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God’s work—which is by faith. 5 The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6 Some have departed from these and have turned to meaningless talk. 7 They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm. (from 1 Tim. 1)

JGIG,
It’s not about perfect obedience! It’s not about earning salvation! It never was. Consider 1 john 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: it’s about a relationship. It’s about walking with Hin. It’s about trusting Him, and believing that He knows what He is doing.
Certain things are unhealthy (the very same things that YHWH calls wrong), somethings are unloving to others or to Him (the very same things that YHWH calls wrong). Something’s are right and good (the very same things that YHWH calls true).
Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. What better things than what YHWH said, what Yeshua did, and what HE calls good.
-grace and peace

It is ALL about perfect obedience! That’s how the Law points to Christ, by bringing mankind to the end of themselves with the realization that they cannot keep the perfect standard of God. And do not be deceived – the Law – as it was given by God to Israel at Sinai – DOES require 100% obedience, 100% of the time. Read it. As it is written. It is not unclear. What the HRM/TP folks have been preaching is a law of their own creation, and not at all the Law that God gave.

Ben……Can you share an example of Paul quoting Old Covenant scripture? And by that you must have one or two specifically in mind that concerns you. I know there are plenty NC texts where he quoted from the OC.

Also ever hear of the Council of Jerusalem? They pretty much eliminated the following of the Law….did they not?

Act 18:12 But Gallio being pro-consul of Achaia, the Jews with one accord rushed against Paul and brought him to the judgment seat,
Act 18:13 saying, This one persuades men to worship God contrary to the Law.

Act 21:28 crying out, Men, Israelites, help! This is the man who teaches all everywhere against the people and the Law and this place. And even he brought Greeks into the temple and has polluted this holy place.

The two above references in Acts seem to indicate that Paul taught against keeping the Law.

And after Christ was crucified and walked with two followers on the road to Emmaeus ……”And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself. ” The OC points to Christ but it’s hard to see Christ from an OC slant. That’s the problem with many of today’s believers. Too much mixture of OC truths and NC truths.

Even David knew of the time when God would not impute sin Psalm 32.2 which is the time now after the Cross.

Felix,
First of all let’s clear something up. Paul, Stephen, AND Jesus were all FALSELY accused. You are taking the side of those who were trying to put Paul to death! Acts 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. And EVERYTIME he testifies, he denies those charges.
Absolutely the scriptures point to Jesus, BUT, we can’t understand what Paul writes if we don’t understand the OLD TESTAMENT (2peter3:16).
And to your last point, David’s sins were imputed unto him? Everyone from Adam to John the Baptist died with their sins imputed unto them?! I beg to differ. Men from the beginning were saved by grace! And David is acknowledging that blessed fact. For without it, ALL mankind would be damned. David looked forward to Yeshus, just like we look back to that point in time when the price was paid. We believe, and have faith that it is paid. -grace and peace

JGIG, so IF perfect obiedence is required according to your theory, then we should not expect to see ANYONE from Moses to John the Baptist in the kingdom of heaven. Right?

If the only reason for the law is to prove that we can’t do it, then how do you reconcile that with the words of YHWH in Deuteronomy ch 30? The context is the return of Israel into the promised land. Especially verse 11 where YHWH says “For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not too difficult for thee, neither is it far off.

If it is too difficult, then why did God say that it isn’t? Could it be that perfection is NOT what He required, BUT a heart that follows after Him? Just as David (a lying adulterous murder who coveted and stole) was called a man after God’s own heart. How is that possible if perfection is required? Selah…

According to James and Paul, perfect obedience IS what the Law requires – disobey even one point of the Law and you disobey the whole Law (Gal. 2, James 3).

As for God saying “It is not too difficult for you . . . “, I have two opinions and one observation about that:

Opinion 1: God may have been chiding/mocking Israel a bit for their insistence that they would obey whatever/all commandments God had for them, before they even knew what God’s perfect standard would require.

Opinion 2: While God’s Law may not be too difficult for the fully committed, mankind’s willingness to fully obey is absent. It may not be too hard, but no one is willing to fully obey anyway.

Observation: NO ONE has EVER kept the Law fully, except God in the flesh, Christ Jesus. Christ alone accomplished what no person in history has ever been able to accomplish. Therefore Christ alone is our High Priest, and intercedes for us as the High Priest of the New Covenant, having set aside the Old Covenant (the Law), because the Law makes nothing perfect (see Hebrews 7).

As for those before the Cross being lost – No – I believe that God gave opportunity to each person throughout history to trust Him. Abraham’s faith was counted to him as righteousness – He believed that what God told him was true.

God says that after the Cross, those who are in Christ are dead to the Law. Do you believe Him?

What JGIG is Not:

Joyfully Growing In Grace is not a heresy-hunting site, it is not an anti-Semitic site, nor does its author have any agenda other than defending the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

This site is not against the Laws of God.

This site does not condemn believers who find joy and insight into their faith by celebrating Feasts, observing a seventh-day Sabbath or who feel they should adhere to dietary laws.

This site does not condemn believers for choosing to not celebrate the Birth or Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Romans 14:6 says, "He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God."

JGIG is not about secondary disputable matters, but addresses core issues of the Christian faith and examines how the Hebrew Roots Movement, Messianic Judaism, and Netzarim streams of thought and related sects stand or fall when placed alongside the plumb line of the whole of Scripture.

JGIG is not a site to 'expose' teachers in the HRM, as they are a dime-a-dozen. The posts at JGIG do examine teachings, however, and may, from time to time reference or quote a particular teacher for demonstrative purposes only.

JGIG is not a place for conspiracy theories. Jesus told us that when we see certain things to not be afraid; that our Redemption draws near. He didn't say to get it all figured out and go and retreat to some bunker somewhere; He calls us to love God, love others and make disciples. So there won't be time spent on conspiracy-minded banter here.

Welcome, and may God grant you wisdom and discernment as you consider all of these things.

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– JGIG

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