On 8/02/2013 pcb wrote:>Could the bolt be there to protect the flake from further damage?

No, because that photo (showing the original top of the flake), was taken before the top of the flake has been retro-broken off.

In fact, I'd say the new top of the flake is about where the small wire (RP?), located below the bolt in that photo is.

When I first climbed that route (many years ago now), the top of the flake was still intact and not 'broken' at it's edge as it appears in the photo. It was certainly thin and testing small wires aggressively tended to crumble the edge, but nowhere near to the degree as shown above.

On 8/02/2013 The good Dr wrote:>It is possible that the freeze/thaw cycle accounted for the top of the flake.

I don't know, but I suppose that is possible.
~> I find that thought consoling, as it leaves a much better taste in my mouth than what I experienced when seeing the damage while climbing it again the other day.

On 8/02/2013 ajfclark wrote:>According to Andrew Davis, someone with the idea that you should vigorously>test any rock you're doubtful of snapped the edge of the top right portion>while vigorously testing it...>
That was what I had imagined. That may have started the problem with the lower section too. Some people just have no idea about how to handle fragile rock and how dangerous it is to pull off a piece of rock when you're climbing (says he who has taken more than 1 screamer after pulling off holds on new routes)

On 8/02/2013 kieranl wrote:>how dangerous it is to pull off a piece of rock when you're climbing

I imagine that whoever did that would have had a pants filling moment on that route, whilst watching a slab of flake falling down a route that their rope crosses over lower down...
I also think the belayer in that situation would not have appreciated the shrapnel...

On 7/02/2013 simey wrote:>........and I'm generally not a fan of overly>dangerous easier to moderate grade routes.>
I completely disagree with this view Simon. Dealing with risky situations is a skill which needs to be learned by anyone who aspires to be a well rounded climber. At what grade do you propose that people should be first exposed to danger?

I think that leaving some unsanitised necky classics in all grades (with appropriate guidebook warning) is the only way to provide a suitable learning ground for future generations of non-pussy climbers.

Also, I gotta say, that flake (at least the bit in the photo) looks pretty temporary. A lot of climbers seem to think of geology as something which happened a long time ago. Actually, a climbing life (especially one belonging to an old fart like Kieran or M9) is plenty long enough to witness substantial natural erosion of the crags. It's probably better not to get emotionally attached to holds or sequences!

On 8/02/2013 One Day Hero wrote:>Also, I gotta say, that flake (at least the bit in the photo) looks pretty>temporary. A lot of climbers seem to think of geology as something which>happened a long time ago. Actually, a climbing life (especially one belonging>to an old fart like Kieran or M9) is plenty long enough to witness substantial>natural erosion of the crags. It's probably better not to get emotionally>attached to holds or sequences!
Probably would have lasted for millenia if M9 hadn't insisting on levering it off with cam-hooks every time he did it :)
(edit : but where else was he going to get expando practice?)

On 8/02/2013 One Day Hero wrote:>On 7/02/2013 simey wrote:>>........and I'm generally not a fan of overly>>dangerous easier to moderate grade routes.>>>I completely disagree with this view Simon. Dealing with risky situations>is a skill which needs to be learned by anyone who aspires to be a well>rounded climber. At what grade do you propose that people should be first>exposed to danger?>>I think that leaving some unsanitised necky classics in all grades (with>appropriate guidebook warning) is the only way to provide a suitable learning>ground for future generations of non-pussy climbers.

For a start, the number of quality easier routes in the country is minimal compared to harder routes. There are very few choices for beginner climbers.

Good climbers don't aspire to climb bold grade 10s and bumbly climbers don't aspire to lead bold grade 10s (bumblies are having enough adventure on the well-protected climbs). So who the fuch are these bold easy routes appealing to?

I don't have a problem leaving a few necky classics if people do aspire to do them (I would consider Bard necky). But if the climb has fallen off the radar then I don't have a problem with the addition of a well-considered retro-bolt making the climb more appealing to those climbers who don't have the skills and ability to tackle the many thousands of harder climbs in existence.

And I am not talking about places like the Warrumbungles where good climbers do aspire to lead easier grade routes and which beginners should steer clear of.

On 8/02/2013 patto wrote:>On 8/02/2013 simey wrote:>>For a start, the number of quality easier routes in the country is minimal>>compared to harder routes. There are very few choices for beginner climbers.>>Huh!? We seem to have an excellent number of quality easy routes in our country.>>In fact I believe guide book Authors have highlighted this attribute of a certain crag in western Victoria. ;-)

Apart from Arapiles, the number of good easy to moderate routes around the country is surprisingly low. Even at Arapiles there are still considerably more routes in the higher grades.

If you are a enthusiastic climber but you only ever lead up to grade 15, it doesn't take long to exhaust all the worthwhile options available to you. I suspect most climbers who have been climbing for a long time in the lower grades repeat the same routes quite frequently.

Well maybe that's their lot in life. I'd say either climb harder or take up surfing. though I'm sure there are a lot of weekend warrior surfers surfing the same break each weekend. Maybe you should try softening some of the gnarlier breaks so those warriors can have a bit more variety.

On 8/02/2013 eduardo slabovic wrote:>Well maybe that's their lot in life. I'd say either climb harder or take>up surfing. though I'm sure there are a lot of weekend warrior surfers>surfing the same break each weekend. Maybe you should try softening some>of the gnarlier breaks so those warriors can have a bit more variety.

Life's an arc - you will eventually reach your inflection point and then will come the decisions

On 8/02/2013 kieranl wrote:>On 8/02/2013 One Day Hero wrote:>>Also, I gotta say, that flake (at least the bit in the photo) looks pretty>>temporary. A lot of climbers seem to think of geology as something which>>happened a long time ago. Actually, a climbing life (especially one belonging>>to an old fart like Kieran or M9) is plenty long enough to witness substantial>>natural erosion of the crags. It's probably better not to get emotionally>>attached to holds or sequences!>Probably would have lasted for millenia if M9 hadn't insisting on levering>it off with cam-hooks every time he did it :)>(edit : but where else was he going to get expando practice?)

Ok, I'll bite; how does a cliffhanger (note: this is not a cam hook), lever a flake when it is draped over the top, and weighted against rope drag with the largest cam/hex (or both!), still left on my rack ?

~> The bugger of the broken flake, is that I need to carry a grappling hook (heavier, but with a bigger 'throw'), instead of a cliffhanger now, when I choose not to use the poxy bolt.
;-)

Thanks Andrew C, yeah the vigorously testing was lifting the edge by hand as it would lift just a few mm, then stomping on it with a heal which resulted in the top right edge breaking off in two thin brittle smaller pieces. A climber i know decided a bolt was better than a death soon after that as they were certain the flake would definitely give up a nut if shock loaded by an adult sliding/falling. A discussion at that time with a climbing identity thought a small RP in the top of the thin crack on the left of the flake would arrest a fall (if you know the climb you will know it) but after trying so many pieces in that area he felt it would be more likely to pop also if the top piece gave (which it would), in which case would lead to a likely fatal fall onto the ledge top of Yeah boys.

I climbed and guided LHV at least 20 times a year from 2003- 2009, but with the advent of Profanities I started guiding up it for a long exciting arete with exposure and great views along with Big Fun and using Pintle start and Dick Selector for crack and placement experience. I haven't been on LHV since March 2010 but back then it looked like the pic someone kindly posted here (great pic btw). Its not clear but i get the impression from what 'M9' says that it no longer looks like that. Im not answering all of the jury's questions as they would like but im not hiding either, and as you would gather from The Crag i think im a bit of an expert on the area, god knows ive crawled about ever centimeter of it, but if it now looks any different than the picture above shows then i have no idea.

On 7/02/2013 Superstu wrote:>Hi Andrew,>>I wouldn't get so uptight about usernames and avatars. The aussie climbing>scene is pretty small and I would say most people know each other behind>the names. People hide their real names and email addresses to prevent>spam. >>I can't see why the guiding can't be done within the parameters of the>established climbing, rather than modifying a popular climbing area to>meet the needs of your guiding to the detriment of everyone else who climbs>there
Point taken, and Ive searched for those other spots, but this area is ideal for so many reasons and the only issue i thought may upset was LHV, (mentioned that history already) the other climbs along crowlands wall are very rarely visited apart from the popular Parrot. Just a little surprised a few are upset, i suspect a few others jump to conclusions and suspect worse even if they never climb there

>This stuff could also endanger the relationship>with park managers that has been built up over the years by climbers showing>restraint.
Yeah Stu, dont i know it, and with the new RIC its a good relationship we want to foster, and i dont know if they're ignorant or just shet stirrers but the faceless prosecution on a witch-hunt ask a lot of questions on a public forum from a person they dont know.