Why happy for yourself? What’s changed? Or why feel bad for the girls? Have they “lost” something because of this announcement? I’ve never understood why gay people say this kind of thing – because he’s come out, do you think gay men now own the rights to fancy him/use him as a role model/enjoy his music? It sounds a bit tribal/possessive to me, as if he is being laid claim to. If girls fancy him, they’ll still fancy him even if he’s gay. No-ones sexuality ever stopped me fancying them.

haha, yeah overeaction, and I’ve heard this much more the other way around with people being sad somebody is gay and even that it is a waste. I think straight ppl tend to say it more because they’re not as used to their crushes not being interested in their gender. I think anybody just means it as a joke, t doesn’t matter as they’d be unlikely to get with them anyways but it helps their daydreams and fantasies and identification i guess

I think the overreaction is the “feeling sorry for female fans”, it just shows some peculiar desire to bump up our numbers. And, funnily enough, no-one has sought to answer my question as to why Pumpkin Pie is so over the moon about it. Why would anyone need to say that, even as a joke? I equally find it odd when straight people use the term “what a waste” – waste for whom exactly? The church? He’s a celebrity (though currently famous for not having really done anything at all, he still has a lot to prove before he gets the usual celebrity god status).

Gay people like Judy Garland because she’s seen as a ‘gay icon’. Usually more so for gay men. But I like her because I grew up obsessed with the Wizard Of Oz. Judy is also suspected of being bisexual herself.

Also the ‘Rainbow Flag’ is derived from Judy’s singing of ‘Somewhere Over The Rainbow’.

It’s not just her though, it’s Marilyn Monrow, Elvis Presly, Marlene Dietrich….lots of old, glamorous icons are liked in the gay community. The same as they are anywhere else.

Because I’m speaking from a happy fantasy reality where I have a real chance of actually being able to have sex with him.

Or why feel bad for the girls?

Because now their happy fantasy realities now actually contradict reality, giving them pretty much a 0% chance of being able to sleep with him. Mine’s not much higher, but at least it’s not actually impossible.

I think anybody just means it as a joke, t doesn’t matter as they’d be unlikely to get with them anyways but it helps their daydreams and fantasies and identification i guess

monkeychops, i don’t see how you think pumpkin pie’s comment was anywhere near ‘over the moon.’ it was clearly a light hearted remark to be taken in jest – pretty regular banter. this is a gay news site after all and i’d be more surprised if something along those lines HADN’T been said. you shouldn’t get so worked up about such petty things. i dread to think how you’d react if something ACTUALLY contentious was said!

a) Lezabella – Sorry to disappoint, but I’m not RobN – why would I be sad enough to have another name on here? Admittedly, he sounds like my kind of person. Besides, you’ll be able to see that we have different writing styles (if you look hard enough).

b) Isabel – Pumpkin Pie has just confirmed why I found his comments a bit pointless. He’s quite happily admitted that he is content he can now fantasise about having sex with that apparent pop star. However, what he’s forgotten is that it is a fantasy – and thus women can still fantasise about it too, obviously. i still find it an odd thing to say. Getting worked up – wouldn’t go that far. Bemused, definitely. There is never anything contentious said on here because no-one really disagrees – if you dare to, then you get hell. Again, this shows how narrow-minded a lot of gay people are. They just won’t accept non-mainstream opinions.

c) Judy Garland – I’ve never understood what a gay icon is. An icon is an icon, surely. As a role model is a role model. And “suspected of being bisexual” – does that automatically mean she has to be “claimed” by us? It’s surely very narrow-minded to worship someone based on their sexuality. What if she wasn’t bisexual? Would she have less value? Would someone like Louise Nurding suddenly be more revered if she were to be? Probably yes, which shows just how sad this all is.

Excuse me, ‘how narrow minded a lot of gay people are’? Way to generalize millions of people you never have and never will come into contact with. Smart. By the same token can I rightfully say that your hysteric response to a light hearted comment shows how neurotic and harebrained a lot of straight people are? I can’t believe how much you have dragged this out, let the guy say what he wants without you jumping all over it, he wasn’t being offensive to you or anybody else. Your reaction was truly pathetic.

Isabel: you shouldn’t get so worked up about such petty things. i dread to think how you’d react if something ACTUALLY contentious was said!

He’d tell us we’re over-reacting and that we’re not the only minority out there. He’s like us, but the other way around. He is nocturnal and only uses an umbrella when there’s clear skies. Every evening, he walks to work in his car and enjoys a fulfilling night of dismantling buildings. He’s in a good mood because he gave his boss a raise the other week.

Monkeychops

We got off on the wrong foot. In all seriousness:-
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Oh, Isabel, if only you knew. I’m not sure if you are inferring I’m straight there, but I’m not – though in terms of my day-to-day values, I definitely feel I have more in common with straight guys. And, yes, I am generalising about gay people because that’s what humans do. It’s how we know our limits, how to react to biological and cultural “others” and how we figure out just where we belong as individuals. That is how all societies have developed, how all our health, employment and environmental policies have developed and how they will always be. Humans are tribal, its bioligical and you have as much chance of eliminating it as growing a tree out of your arse. Have you ever asked anyone on here NOT to generalise against religious groups? I would imagine not beceause the majority would agree with you and your opinions on it. Hypocrisy? You bet, that’s the gay world for you.

Gay people are incredibly narrow-minded and discriminating – just talk to one. Or just reas this site a bit more. Look on the Ageing LGBT thread, where people have freely admitted to not knowing much about older LGBT people or even caring about it to be honest. Sounds more like you are not prepared to accept any criticism of gay people at all, which is rather unhealthy. If we want full acceptance, we need, as a community, to step out of our bubbles and be a bit more rational.

With regards to Pumpin Pies comments, I have merely enquired as to why he, like a lot of gay guys I know, say these things and seem to confirm a desire to have more of the world in their pigeon-hole. Not to mention gettiing so wrapped up in yet another gay pop star. What I have not responded with is a detailed, though slightly humorous, account of what I might do in my life (as Pumpkink Pie has, thanks for the insight into your imagination). All you’ve done Isabel is reiterate what I thought – gays don’t like people who don’t agree with the mainstream view. On anything. And this is why the fight still goes on – because those out in the real world still think we’re odd.

As I said, I like Judy Garland because The Wizard Of Oz was my favourite film when I was a child, I used to watch it every day after nursery! :)

So no, I don’t like her because she’s ‘bisexual’ or whatever. She’s just someone from a film I adore. I was just trying to explain and give possible reasons WHY the gay community likes her. But ofcourse I can’t tell you that, in the same sense that I can’t tell you why straight people like David Beckham so much.

My favourite icons of the Hollywood Golden Age are Greta Garbo (‘I vant to be alone’) and Carole Lombard. They’re not ‘gay icons’ in the slightest.

Everyone’s different. But I feel it’s more the gay male side of the LGBT community who picks and chooses the ‘icons’ and hence run with it.

I agree with you entirely – men run the world (for positive and negative) full stop, regardless of sexuality. Women always get a rougher deal, but then that is partly down to them also, women are the only ones who can stop it and they’re not. Gay men are not very nice to lesbians on the whole either. I’m glad that Judy Garland is a favourite of yours not because of her sexuality – but as you’ve pointed out, for many gay people it could well be that. A little shallow, no? As you may (or may not, I don’t know) feel annoyed that people assume you like her because of her sexuality, can you see know why I don’t like being tarred with the various brushes that are doing the rounds? People, gays and straights, naturally assume that I like certain musicians or personalities just because they are gay. The overwhelming majority that I like are not, but it just takes liking one to get labeled. Annoying, no? Then again, look on here –Pink News seems to find it necessary to point out every single “famous” person that is gay. And, predictably, people start swooning over this fodder and then claiming them in that “nah-nah-nah-nah-nah, he’s one of ours” kind of way. A bit like when football fans run round the playground shouting “we won”, when actually they personally didn’t do anything at all. Seems a bit pointless. When I was at uni, the LGBT society would constantly tell people they should vote for local politicians who were gay just because of that, regardless of their policies. These apparently educated, liberal minded people thought so narrowly and I just thought it very sad. And when you said, actually no, I think they’re crap, they gave you so much hell. But that was the majority – how do you fight that when you’re already in a minority? Fortunately, I’m of sufficiently independent mind to make my own choice, but it’s still irritating to have to be forced into being part of the mainstream. Ironically, something the gay world as a whole is constantly telling the staright majority that we don’t have to be mainstream at all!

I agree we (women) need to stand up for ourselves more. But most women are passive so it’s difficult, and if you are one of the few who stands up and says “This isn’t right”, you’re automatically labelled a ‘bitch’ and a ‘man-hater’. I don’t know if you watch Big Brother, (I do as I like the psychological aspect/group dynamics) but at the moment Lisa, the butch lesbian, has begun standing up and throwing her weight around when the others act like idiots. The eldest male in the group, Markus, nominated her for this specific reason, when actually, he does the same. A lot of males do not like females challenging them and that’s why he did it, whether he realises it or not. They’re the two oldest housemates, and she is a direct threat to his patriachal influence. This happens in every day life a lot.

As for gay men not being nice to lesbians….hmm, that’s a tricky one. Many I’ve encountered are positive; but the shallow gay men (the stereotypes if you will) are not. In Liverpool right now, (what was) the most popular after hours gay club, the ‘G-Bar’ has been swamped with scally straight people. I don’t mind straight people going there, but now it’s not even gay in the slightest regarding the clientele and I don’t feel comfortable. And it’s the result of these shallow gay men. They bring their gangs of ‘fag hags’ with them which in turn attract straight males who want to pick these ‘fag hags’ up. Susequently, I (and most other lesbians) no longer feel comfortable there after getting dirty looks and comments from these gay men’s ‘pets’ and their male pursuers. If you go there now, you’ll see the occasional camp gay lad, with the rest being straight females and males. Not only that, but nearly every gay club/bar in Liverpool is marketed to gay men. Any place that is lesbian-friendly, is so because lesbians have decided to go there and make it their own; not because it’s aimed at us. And I’m sick of it.

I, too get annoyed with stereotypes, and I don’t automatically like someone because they’re gay, I also don’t ‘claim’ them. Pink News does this admittedly, but people seem to like it. A few of my favourite films are Alien (1 and 2), Gladiator and Finding Nemo – not very ‘gay’ is it? We’re all in the same boat in a way, and I agree that some stereotypes can be counter-productive, but it’s up to us to stand up as individuals and not let our sexuality define us.

I’m a lesbian and proud of it. But that doesn’t mean I sit around watching the L Word all day :)

Lezabella – I totaly agree on the whole fag hag thing. I know a straight guy who goes to gay clubs specifically to pick up women, as he knows he faces less of a challenge from other primates like himself. How sad. Haven’t watched Big Brother alas, but I’m sure you’re remarks are well-merited.

Simon Murphy – wrong. 28. And isn’t stereotyping something we don’t like, hmmm? My rants are actually from having seen far more than most guys my age – most of which was done, unsurprisingly, in my early 20s. I wuld therefore, on the same stereotype basis, guess your “wisdom” comes from a 55 year-old who feels like a fish out of water.

Lezabella – again, to come back to your very interesting and well-thought out point, it is indeed up to us to confront the probelms we face. Sadly, there are just a few very dtermined people who do, while the rest sit round and wait for others to sort it out for them. Much like societies do as a whole – the shepherds leading the sheep and then the sheep moaning that the grass is of low-quality. As someone who has been highly active in this field at one point, I feel that I have a right to an opinion on where we stand (though some others here would disagree with that as I don’t share their views).

Also, how many lesbians really get into the clubbing scene? Most of the lesbians I know are quiet, at-home types. No problem with being either, but it means there are not enough people to pass the threshold to open a club that specifically caters for them. Personally, I don’t like the gay scene (that could be because of the types of men that frequent it though), however while straight guys are making you feel vulnerable, there should be a venue for you to go to where you can feel at ease.

Monkeychops- I agree, sometimes the stereotypes annoy me to an extent too as they’re always, always negative. Or viewed as negative, I should say.

But if a gay man is genuinely effeminate, and a lesbian genuinely masculine, then also I have no problem with that. People should be who they want to be.

Straight people’s perception of us is due to a combination of things: their own ignorance and refusal to view us as individuals, the media, old fashioned images of gays, and some gay people who actually adhere to, and live up to, such stereotypes.

I doubt those images will ever change. Not anytime soon anyway. But I have to say, those stereotypes do not bother me.

But I can tell you don’t like them very much? Howcome?

“Also, how many lesbians really get into the clubbing scene? Most of the lesbians I know are quiet, at-home types. No problem with being either, but it means there are not enough people to pass the threshold to open a club that specifically caters for them.”

True to an extent. I know lesbians who do stay in a lot, but then I know some who like me and my girlfriend, like to socialise as much as the young gay men do. If you look at Vanilla in Manchester (a lesbian/woman only club), it’s full to bursting on most nights, and when we go there we feel really at ease and not threatened in any way. I wish they would open one in Liverpool.

As for the ‘fag hag/straight men who follow them’ epidemic, I find that so f*cking annoying! Just when we find a place we can go to, (without getting intimidated, spat on, insulted for kissing our girlfriends etc) it gets too well-known and the whole thing starts again. ‘Garlands’ of Liverpool is now nearly all straight, G-Bar isn’t far behind. Now they’ve opened up a new after-hours place called ‘Destination’ which is gay; but even their adverts and stuff are aimed at gay men.

Lezabella – you have every right to moan. I would be dead narked if I was being treated like a second-class citizen within the community I apparently belonged to. It’s difficult enough sometimes without your own people making your life difficult. Which brings me to why I get so annoyed about stereotypes….hope you’re ready!

Basically, I hate being blamed for other people’s actions and people assuming that I am something I am not. Cruising, back rooms in night clubs, cottaging, chrystal meth taking, dodgy men hanging around in parks at night looking for sex, gay pride being a massive display of sexual fetishes, inability to commit to relationships, selfish, egocentric, narcissistic and self-victimising despite vast legal changes……it’s all a massive stereotype of what gay people are, but gays just constantly shit on their own doorstep by doing these things (which aren’t remotely civilised by anyone’s standards) and confirm that stereotype to our critics all over again. And, selfishly, they are shitting on my doorstep and getting me labelled. Just look at this very web page – scantily clad blokes posing down the side menu, it’s called “Pink News” and writing few positive articles about events that affect us. This doesn’t make me happy, just embarrassed to be associated with other gay guys. I’m sure a moderate Muslim must be infuriated at being suspected of terrorism purely because of the actions of extremists. But what can he do when his own community does so little to counter the stereotype? Gays, like other minority communities, need to take responsibity for their image for once. But responsibility isn’t something gays are famed for either (and I exclude lesbians from that).

Straight people may be ignorant on some levels, simply because majorities generally lack awareness of minorities – it’s logical though, why would they worry about things that wouldn’t enter there head as a concern? Equal rights doesn’t really affect man of them, do they? Different needs = different concerns. But, by and large I find the overwhelming majority of straight guys and girls to be ok with it. Plus, straight people have given us our rights – there’s no gay government is there? And, the more I show people that I am not involved in the seedy activities above, the more they respect me. It’s the lifestyle choice they don’t like, not the same-sex love aspect. They would just as much hate to see straight people doing this kind of thing and I genuinely believe that. In fact they treat me very differently to other gay guys because they don’t see me the same way. For them, I am some kind of anomaly as there is a huge difference between me and the guys in pink, painted-on crops tops mincing around on Canal Street, bitching, picking up a new bloke every night and generally looking superficial and shallow – not just because of how we dress, but by our general outlook on life. I don’t have this immense chip on my shoulder about my sexuality to bring everyone down around me, which other gay guys seem to massively resent. I am positive about the progress we have made AND how much the straight community is actually on our side. Gay guys seem to have so few straight friends and the heterophobia I have come across is just shocking. Maybe that’s because of inferiority complexes, but I have never felt or been made to feel inferior to a straight guy. Or at least not to an extent where it has affected me – I’m certainly not afraid to take on other people’s views or give them a good chinning if threatened (you may have noticed this). A former boyfriend of mine refused to go out to “straight” nightclubs because he was so paranoid, yet nothing bad had ever even happened to him. Suffice to say he got ditched pretty quickly, it was a burden on me to be so closed off from the real, wider world and being stuck in clubs and bars with people terrified of that world didn’t make me feel too optimistic.

I came out at 15, still at secondary school in a rural area and before equal rights really kicked in (John Major was still PM). Should be a recipe for disaster right? Not one bad reaction. Apparently, if you believe other gay guys, I should feel guilty about this. How dare I have such an easy life! Perhaps they should question why – could it be my own attitude towards the whole thing is what made my life easier, as opposed to being fortunate? There seems to be this whole competition going on as to who had the most depressing upbringing, the most bullying, the least opportunities, the unhappiest parental marriage….it just isn’t healthy. I grew up in a council house with skint teenage parents, but I don’t bleat on about it as I have changed my life radically since then (as have my folks). Now that is something I feel proud of, why shouldn’t I? It was once my reality but not now, hence no need to complain. Gays no longer living in difficult circumstances should focus on the positivity of that instead of trying to squeeze out every last drop of sympathy from the world for a situation of years past. You can’t live in the past or cling onto the dramas of our predecessors to attract sympathy. It’s just plain wrong and limiting. There are so many straight people far worse off than me – through illness, famine and all sorts. Being rational aboout your situation in relation to those of others is not something gay people seem to do very well from those I have met (and occasionally been out with).

The community as a whole sets a bad example for young gay guys, which is why I never bought into that way of life. Nothing appealed to me about it, though I have been out on the scene in many countries, many times. The gay friends I have hate gay pride as much as I do because we feel no pride at all in seeing that annual set of reconfirmed stereotyping….by the very people complaining of being stereotyped. We’re a mixed bunch in our friendship circles, but we all have a basic set of common values – and not one of us sees these values (or a sufficient number of values) in the gay community.

Perhaps I am just an anomoly, perhaps my supportive family, friends and peers are really just the greatest in the world. But I think it might just me my character. Put another person in my situation and they could end up dead at 21 from an overdose. I promised myself at an early age I would never become a statistic and so far I haven’t. Seeing so many other gay guys around who seem to dream of being that just frightens me. I read an interview with Andy Bell once where he said he was glad to have AIDS. He said it was something he always wanted, like a gay tattoo. I mean, is he mad? And then people read that shit and assume that as lots of gays died from it, maybe they did want it after all!

One thing I am dead against though is silencing people. Bring out the BNP, bring out the Imams, let them say what they want – if they get violent and abusive, then you prosecute. Not only can we equally say what we like, but the rational people in society will see both sides and support us. The shift to the right has been undoubtedly caused by the straight, white, middle-class community being victimised by unhelpful political correctness and thus pushing them to extremes where they feel they may have a voice. Give them a chance to speak, air concerns and participate….and watch them come out to support us.

“Just look at this very web page – scantily clad blokes posing down the side menu, it’s called “Pink News” and writing few positive articles about events that affect us. This doesn’t make me happy, just embarrassed to be associated with other gay guys. I’m sure a moderate Muslim must be infuriated at being suspected of terrorism purely because of the actions of extremists.”

Yeah I can see where you’re coming from with the stereotpyes. But it is up to us to change them. I don’t ‘look’ like a typical lesbian, I suppose in gay terms I would be a ‘femme’ to a certain extent. However, that doesn’t make me any less ‘gay’ than a ‘butch’.

All of my friends are straight, most of my girlfriends’ friends are staright too. The friends I have are exactly the same friends I had before I came out and they could not have been more supportive. My family were the same, they don’t care as long as I’m happy.

I think reading this site too much where every wrong against gays is reported no matter how small or large, or reading crap like The Daily Mail (which has sexist aswell as homophobic and racist tones to it) can turn people very extreme indeed.

But when you go out to real life you’ll find that the majority of the general public don’t care! They literally don’t care. Sure, if you hold hands with your partner and have public displays of affection, you might get a few looks but that’s because we ARE a minority and people look because they’re shocked and a bit intrigued; but not in a bad way. Granted, you’ll get a few stupid comments off a group of scally lads or girls but they’re the type of people who shout stuff at rival football fans etc so they don’t matter.

The anti-gay brigade are a minority and times will change. But at the same time we still have to stand up when major wrongs are committed against us.

Gay people in America have it a lot worse than us. Not to mention the Islamic and African countries.

Lezabella – I totally agree. It is up to us, but as you can see from the varying debates on here, so few are willing to try to change these stereotypes by behaving in a way that makes us look more decent and respectable. There has been so much venom spat at me for suggesting that we might not be helping ourselves – always looking to blame everyone else for our situation. It’s as if I am attacking the very essence of their personalities. I would say the same to the black community – it’s up to them to sort out gang problems and gun-crime which get all black people tarred with the same brush.

To me, gay has only one meaning: same-sex sexual attraction. Anything else is a universal personality trait that is added on top.

Glad you have such a balanced view of the situation as a whole. I think we might be fighting a losing battle in trying to convince others here that life isn’t as bad as is made out. Even Pink News shoots itself in the foot a lot. But, as usual, I have hope…. :)

Chunkymops:-
Basically, I hate being blamed for other people’s actions and people assuming that I am something I am not.

but gays just constantly shit on their own doorstep by doing these things (which aren’t remotely civilised by anyone’s standards) and confirm that stereotype to our critics all over again.

Pot, meet kettle. I skimmed through your bitching and moaning with detached interest. Never has so little been said with so many words.

Don’t think you’re anything special. You “civilized” misanthropes are a dime a dozen. You’re fantastic, it’s the rest of the world that’s the problem. Other people (straight and LGBT) enjoy gay culture, but you don’t, so that means you must have some extra-special insight, ‘cos it couldn’t possibly be a subjective issue, could it? Everybody is exactly the way you think they are, and they need to change, because you don’t like it. Nobody lives their lives the way you want them to, reality isn’t what you wanted it to be – boo-fucking-hoo. Get a life and grow up, you petulant child. Everything that comes from your mouth seems to be a never-ending stream of stereotypes and hate. You are about as deluded as you are unpleasant.

Try living a day without pigeon-holing every person you meet. Might be an eye-opener for you. Hey, everyone stereotypes – fundamentalists tend to look the same to me, as do misanthropes – but we still try to see people for who they really are.

Pumpkin – I don’t need to pigeon-hole anyone, gay men are great at doing it themselves. I like very much that I am impossible to pigeon-hole, yet I am very much in line with mainstream thinking on many of the issues facing our society. You’ve just gone off on one, saying that I want everyone to be like me and I want to change everyone. Aren’t you being a hypocrite? You clearly want me to be like you and agree to what you’re saying and because I’mnot you’re having a huge hissy fit. Sorry no, not a chance. You are clearly incredibly frustrated that you are not winning me over. If you won’t agree with me, why should I agree with you? That’s what you’re trying to get at. Carrying on with all your personal insults won’t win me over either.

Not everything about the gay world needs chaging, but those parts that directly affect me in a negative way do as far as I am concerned. Just like we are trying to change the views of the church – or rather eliminate the aspects of their behaviour that directly impact upon us. But apparently it’s ok for us to change the church as we are in the “right”? If you believe someone like yourself. They also think they are right – so we need to compromise instead of slagging each other off. And we would do well to clean up our own back yard instead of leaving up to them to tell us about it. How would they be able to react negatively to us if we were model citizens? Thta’s how I tend to shut most critics up, by being clean-living and respectful. And, no, that doesn’t mean leading an aseptic life devoid of passion or variation. I’m very grateful for the life I have led so far, I’ve seen wonderful things. But I still manage to lead a socially-healthy lifestyle.

As for civilised behaviour, drugs (illegal), cruising (illegal)….major association with gay men. Ever read Gay Times? Half the magazine is just escort ads, usually with a guy rubbing his nipples or something on the front cover. There are very few gay publications and nearly all follow the same format of sleaze. Attitude is not bad, I do read it from time to time, but it does let itself down by hammering home the message of safe sex on one page and then putting in articles by guys talking about their promiscuous lifestyles on teh next. Gay Times talks of drugs and cruising as being part of gay culture. I don’t want that label, so yes, I’ll gladly be a civilised misanthrope if that’s what you want to call me. And, read my comments better, and you’ll see that I think the rest of the world is actually not bad, it’s the gay section of it that I think is causing a problem for itself (especially in the UK where the fight is pretty much one – the government can only help us so much, it’s down to communities to do the rest). There is an awful lot of content in my srawlings – I’ve asked endless questions, backed up why I feel how I do with examples and experiences and responded to comments of individuals to show that I am listening. Few have responded to questions, few have backed up their feelings with examples. Those that do, reagrdless of whether I agree or not, I respect. Apparently, according to you, it’s enough just to back up the prevailing opinion with a yes or no. Don’t agree. It’s like blind cronyism.

Again, I’ll remind you to stop with the name calling. It doesn’t make me want to listen to your views.

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