January 1, 2011

Jonathan J. Miller, the president of Miller Samuel, the appraisal company, said that “while there is no known empirical data to reliably measure this amenity,” a washing machine can add as much as 5 percent to an apartment’s price tag.

“It is the ultimate convenience,” said Doug Steinberg, whose one-bedroom condo, at 315 Seventh Avenue in Chelsea, is now on the market for $739,000. The apartment, No. 7B, has its own laundry tucked behind a louvered door, with shelves for detergent and towels.

97 comments:

That's accurate--there are many good reasons to live in New York, but certain things that are commonplace eslewhere are luxuries here. Washer/dryer is one (most people either go to the laundry mat or pay someone to wash their clothes), dish washers are more common, but also fairly rare. For long periods of time living here, not only did I not own a car, but I didn't know anybody who did either. They're just not useful enough to justify the cost.

Here's the secret behind the liberal animus against cars. Middle class people in Manhattan can't afford a car. So, Stuff White People Like liberals have to create a rationale in which they've "chosen" not to own a car. They "choose" to do so out of righteous concern about the environment.

Here's the math per month of owning a modest car in Manhattan:

Miniminal car payment: $400Garage: $400Insurance: $300

The minimal cost for owning a decent car is $1,100 a month before you've even considered things like gas and maintenance, not to mention parking tickets and tolls.

Since Manhattan is the place all Swipples must live, the Swipples must figure out how to make their "decision" to not own a car appear to be one of bravery and consciousness.

In small town Illinois, the cost of owning a car is 1/4 of what it costs to own a car in Manhattan.

Here at last is the explanation for the Swipple animus against cars. They can't afford to live in Manhattan and own a car.

I know this because I used to work in corporate law firms in Manhattan. The Swipple kids would arrive as associates new in town, bragging about how they didn't own a car and took the subway everywhere.

Those who made senior associate or partner status immediately bought cars and bragged about the exorbitant cost of owning a high priced car in Manhattan.

The tables were now turned. Status was no longer conferred by making a decision of conscience in favor of saving the environment. For the winners, owning a BMW and parking it in a $600 a month garage with an attendant became the new badge of status.

The basic amenities are just that. Stuff you need to control yourself. Over the years, the number of horror stories of what happened to some woman who went down to the basement of the apartment building to do the laundry has fueled many a cop show episode.

Ten years ago, living in a $375 per month, two bedroom townhouse apartment in a small (1,500 people) rural town, I bought a basic washer and dryer for around $500 total. Now I have a house and the same washer and dryer.

I'm sure many New Yorkers would make fun of me as a hick or redneck for living in a rural area. I'm deciding what to do with my extra half mil.

It's tough going to a laundromat, but sometimes that's what you have to do

The couple we bought our house from had two little kids, and their washer-dryer ran non-stop all day long. (The mom pointed out that not only did kids get their own clothes dirty, but they got their parents' clothes, bedding etc. dirty as well.) I wonder if having to go to a laundromat limits the birthrate.

Space is at a premium in typical NYC apartments, and electric current is at a premium as well. Moist dryer air has to be vented outside -- I can see how the cost of having a washer and dryer combo would far exceed the cost of the appliances themselves.

Dadvocate - I always marveled at how my NYC friends would laugh at the thought of living in a mobile home while they pay $2000 a month for 400 sq ft studio apartments in the worst neighborhoods of NYC.

I believe much of the animus the left has to the successful is a simple matter of envy and a way to convert dejection to superiority.

The people being criticized here are affluent New Yorkers who can afford good condos in Manhattan, such as the attorneys in corporate law firms that shoutingthomas was talking about. You know, the sort of (generally socially liberal) ee-leetist urban yuppies that populist social conservatives always complain about. In other words - successful people. If fact, most of the class resentment I hear these days comes from the Palin crowd, because those libruls think they're better'n us.

That having been said, New York is a great city, but the cost of living and difficulty in getting basic amenities that people in other big cities (Houston, Atlanta, Los Angeles, etc.) take for granted is a deal-killer.

If you put sheets on the clothes line when it's 20 below, they'll still dry. I'm not sure how they do it, but they do. Then, when you bring them into the house the fresh aroma is overwhelming. All this, from Star Prairie, WI. Current temp 7º.

For starters, an inexpensive washer and dryer in one's home, relative ease of parking (that won't cost a king's ransom) and nearby supermarkets larger than Duane Reade or a good bodega. I'm not knocking New York City (and to be precise - a lot of this conversation is about Manhattan, not the outer boroughs), but there isn't much dispute about the high cost of living in New York City or the fact that there are a lot of things that one can easily get in other big cities that are a hassle or really expensive to get in New York. But there are trade-offs in New York's favor on other matters, of course. There's no place quite like Anthology Film Archives anywhere else in the US, for example.

Unit 7B is not listed on zillow.com. But unit 8C is-- and it too has a washer/dryer. It's 612 sq.ft. (how do people live in a closet?). There's no zillow estimate, but the price history shows that it was listed September 2009 for $645,000. The price was reduced twice, down to $599,000, before the listing was removed last March.

To each his own. But at these $/sqft (I checked others in the building, very similar) my home (all heated/cooled space, i.e., not including garage & workshop) is worth just a bit over $7M. Now, if we're only talking the main house, it goes down to $3M, not including the value of the land. And it did come with a washer AND dryer... but I strung up a clothes line anyway.

Again- to each his own. But I sure am glad we found the farm. (Which we did not pay millions of dollars for-- not even close.)

You've explained part of it. You think you've got the right to tell other people what kind of car to buy and drive. At the greater extreme, people like you think that there's some reason to bitch at people for enjoying owning and driving a car.

You think that owning and driving a car is something people have to explain to you.

I.e., you've got an animus against cars. You think you've got a good reason for it. But, there it is.

You have such a wonderful social consciousness. So, you should be able to tell other people what to do.

"There's no place quite like Anthology Film Archives anywhere else in the US, for example."

I don't go there often, but it's great that it exists. (I was just there about a month and a half ago, where I saw THE WORLD'S GREATEST SINNER.)

These basic amenities you refer to I can live and do live without--we have washers & driers in my building's basement, and I haven't owned (or missed owning) a car since I moved to NYC--but the disappearance of the city's independent and revival film houses and independent bookstores over the years has been a calamitous loss.

One doesn't move to New York to find what is common and available where one is coming from; one comes here--or did at one time--to partake of what NYC had to offer that wasn't available elsewhere.

I'm very happy that I don't have to be burdened with owning a car and that I can easily get around without one, but the NYC of today is less appealing in most other respects than the NYC I moved to.

You think you've got the right to tell other people what kind of car to buy and drive.

Ah. Shoutingthomas is one of the profligate conservatives. Hauling the family around in a vehicle that gets only 12-14 mpg highway and 8-10 mpg city; thus putting ourselves in the hands of a bunch of people -- Middle Easterners and Venezuelans who don't like us very much -- is unpatriotic.

There was recently an article on the net somewhere written by a guy who lives in Dallas about why he chooses to stay there rather than move back to NYC. Why put up with these punishing lifestyle issues when you can fly there once a month and partake of all the cultural amenities?

It's really not a big deal not having a washer or dryer. Laundromats are all over, and a lot of people utilize drop-off service. Life isn't harder w/o them (unless you're far from one), just ever slightly different.

Allen S- water in frozen clothes on a line in sunshine goes from the frozen state to a gas. Don't ask me why but read it years ago.

I live in tony east Boca in Palm Beach county in an 1100 sq.ft. townhome with two bathrooms and off street parking, etc. The Publix is 3/4 mile away. Last sale was off 2/3 from the highs of 2006 or from $285k to $95k. Being east of I-95 makes homeowner insurance costs relatively high (hurricane threat) compared to what I was used to paying in suburban Philly, but with homestead law, real estate taxes are a mere $850 and no state income tax, local wage tax, per capita tax, occupational privilege tax, ice to scrape, snow to shovel, etc., it is much cheaper than New York City. Of course the grass is greener living on a mountain away from all the snowbirds or transplanted NY'ers with their sense of entitlement that infest the roadways and stores here. Another nice thing about being here is listening to the never ending complaints that algore wuz robbed despite the best efforts of the leftist state Supremes. Thank you, clueless codgers for not comprehending the dem-designed butterfly ballot and sparing us all that pompous windbag from Tennessee. And a big thanks to Tennesseeans also for rejecting their own favorite son too.

"The couple we bought our house from had two little kids, and their washer-dryer ran non-stop all day long."

They're doing something wrong. I have two kids, and do fine w/ one laundromat run a week. Some parents are annoying and insist their lives are *so burdened* because they want to think they're special. So they make work for themselves. It's like Munchausen by proxy but with laundry.

Ah. Shoutingthomas is one of the profligate conservatives. Hauling the family around in a vehicle that gets only 12-14 mpg highway and 8-10 mpg city; thus putting ourselves in the hands of a bunch of people -- Middle Easterners and Venezuelans who don't like us very much -- is unpatriotic.

Who said anything about patriotism.

I'm talking so of consumer preferences.

In fact, when I could afford it I owned an Expedition, which got about 17 mpg. Abso-fucking-lutely the best car I've ever owned. Loved it. Great view of the road. Quick and fast. And nobody fucks with a 5,000 lb. SUV on the Thruway or on the Henry Hudson Parkway.

Can no longer afford this luxury. If I had the money, I'd buy another Expedition in a heartbeat. Very reliable car, too. Never breaks down.

I believe much of the animus the left has to the successful is a simple matter of envy and a way to convert dejection to superiority.

The people being criticized here are affluent New Yorkers who can afford good condos in Manhattan, such as the attorneys in corporate law firms that shoutingthomas was talking about. You know, the sort of (generally socially liberal) ee-leetist urban yuppies that populist social conservatives always complain about. In other words - successful people. If fact, most of the class resentment I hear these days comes from the Palin crowd, because those libruls think they're better'n us.

Hardly better, just hypocrites. The Lefties believe only they should have money. They're the ones who resent Conservatives, mostly for doing as well, if not, better than them.

That having been said, New York is a great city

If you take away the crime, the squalor, the lack of responsive city services, the crushing debt, the high taxes, the intrusiveness of the city government, the arrogance of the public service unions...

One doesn't move to New York to find what is common and available where one is coming from; one comes here--or did at one time--to partake of what NYC had to offer that wasn't available elsewhere.

The thing is - many of the things that once were only found in NYC can be found everywhere, or at least in large cities. For example, while Anthology Film Archives is a a great and unique place, you can find lots of places that screen experimental films and documentaries outside of NYC, and that wasn't as common thirty years ago. (And let's not talk about the cultural implications of technological wonders like Youtube, Netflix and Amazon.com.) On that score, I can go see such films at venues here in Houston, park my car there for free or for cheap, stop by a supermarket (like Whole Foods - they started here in Texas) on the way home for an organic snack, and then wash my clothes in my own laundry in an urban home that costs about a third of what I'd pay for it in Manhattan. That ain't nothin'.

This is not so much class resentment as it is generational resentment. Those Swipples move to NYC to escape their own "backward" families. Palin reminds the Swipples of their Moms and Dads back in Kansas and Indiana.

That may be true for some SWPLs in NYC, but it doesn't explain the much broader rancor and resentments one hears from the Palin crowd towards anyone they deem class enemies. Just ask Barbara Bush.

The man lives in Texas -- he's already taken on enough punishing lifestyle issues for any man.

Only true because he lives in Dallas. I kid - actually Dallas is a great city, including for gay people. The Sheriff in Dallas County is a lesbian Latina who is presumably pretty good with firearms. That's probably not something you'll see soon in NYC government.

I put up a retractable clothes line where it can only be seen from a neighboring roof.

Wealthy SF liberals moved into our county in large numbers over the last twenty years. Hijacking prices and blotting tree lined, middle class family neighborhoods with their faux French facades and zero lot line monstrosities.

Of course their tender liberal sensibilities were offended by the mostly conservative rubes around them, so they began to ban neighborhood "eyesores" such as front yard statuary, house paint colors deemed inappropriatly garish, clothes lines and off street RV and boat parking.

Now they're discussing issuing "green" variances for clothes lines...of course there will be an annual permit fee.

I had been working for 15 years before I bought my first loft with a washer and driver. It was bliss. I washed clothes 24 7.

Just three years ago I purchased my first loft with a parking spot, outside of course, but it was so incredible. I could of rented it out for 300 a month but I had a car.

I parked on the street for 20 years. Two of those years with Wisconsin Plates (totally degrading BTW). I was booted three times because of unpaid parking tickets. Each time I had to go to some God awful place and give them cash to release the car. It was something like $2500 each time. My car was probably broken into over 50 times and on nights that it rained. Fun.

This is not so much class resentment as it is generational resentment. Those Swipples move to NYC to escape their own "backward" families. Palin reminds the Swipples of their Moms and Dads back in Kansas and Indiana.

That may be true for some SWPLs in NYC, but it doesn't explain the much broader rancor and resentments one hears from the Palin crowd towards anyone they deem class enemies. Just ask Barbara Bush.

More like the other way around, given what Mrs B actually said. Then again, she seems to be trying to prep the battlespace for Jeb in '16 and she would appear to see Miss Sarah as his biggest obstacle.

More like the other way around, given what Mrs B actually said. Then again, she seems to be trying to prep the battlespace for Jeb in '16 and she would appear to see Miss Sarah as his biggest obstacle.

Yeah, because suggesting that Palin should politically "stay in Alaska" is totally an example of class warfare on Barbara Bush's part, the sort of thing Palin should respond to with comments about "elite blue bloods". But it's no surprise that sort of thing appeals to the subset (probably not a majority, thankfully) of conservatives who never accomplished much in life and resent those who have, particularly if they happen to couple that success with education and cultural interests. Sarah knows her audience and I give her a tip of the hat for that.

Depends. I have a friend who owns a diesel powered Excursion. On the highway it gets close to 20 mpg. He likes coaching basketball and hauling his team around. He pretty much only drives it on the highway. It would take 3 Priuses to do what he can do with one Excursion. Plus, you don't have to worry about battery disposal/pollution when the car wears out.

He drives a Toyota Highlander on a daily basis. As a large animal (horses and cows) veterinarian he needs the 4WD and some space for his equipment.

I don't believe that car insurance rates in Manhattan are enormously high compared to other places. Drivers in the Bronx and Brooklyn get nailed for monumental premiums, which is why many of them find it cheaper to pay as much as $3K for counterfeit plates and registration stickers than to register their cars legitimately and provide proof of insurance.

For example, while Anthology Film Archives is a a great and unique place, you can find lots of places that screen experimental films and documentaries outside of NYC, and that wasn't as common thirty years ago.

It's really not a big deal not having a washer or dryer. Laundromats are all over, and a lot of people utilize drop-off service. Life isn't harder w/o them (unless you're far from one), just ever slightly different.

Bullshit. You personally might not *mind* hauling stuff to a laundromat (for whatever bizarre reason??) but don't assert that it's no harder than having one in your own home.

A lot of people here in Germany have washers but no dryers. It's easy to lay your clothes out to dry on a rack. It's not easy to hand wash all your clothes. If you only have space for one, you want a washer.

Another thing they have here are condenser dryers. I'd never heard of those in the US, but they don't need to vent air. Instead, you pour out a tub full of water once your load is done. They don't get as hot as American dryers, which means your clothes don't feel quite as dry when they come out. But, they are dry and go through a lot less wear and tear.

"If you take away the crime, the squalor, the lack of responsive city services, the crushing debt, the high taxes, the intrusiveness of the city government, the arrogance of the public service unions...."

Do you live here? Have you lived here?

You're speaking of a long-gone NYC...the crime is low, the squalor is much less in evidence, the city government hardly seems intrusive in my life, and I've never had any experience with "the arrogance of the public service unions".

But of course my comment is about more than just the bookstores and cinemas...it's about the loss of so much more...about the loss of everything that made NYC unlike any other place in America...the artistic culture...the everyday street culture....

New York still has much to recommend it, but it is a lesser place than what it was.

It is eventually more cost effective to own a washer and dryer than to go to the laundromat: especially, if you are a family with children or have a working spouse who will get clothing dirty.

Eons ago, when I was first pregnant, I calculated the cost of disposable diapers for a year and half, the cost of going to the laundromat two times a week for the same amount of time and compared it to the cost of a new washer/dryer, soap and increased utility bills at home.

It was cheaper to buy a new washer/dryer and cloth diapers. I had the appliances for 12 years before they had to be replaced and the cloth diapers make really good cloths for drying crystal and cleaining stainless steel. I still have a couple of them left after all these years.

"Robert: Is NYC offering less than it did, or are the hinterlands offering more than they did?"

It's both, actually.

"I think if you want to go to a chess pro shop, your choice is limited to NYC."

That may be so, but chess is not one of my interests, so I couldn't say. There is a chess shop downtown on Thompson Street just north of Bleecker Street and around the corner from The Bitter End and other such bars/clubs, but I've never been inside it.

@Robert Cook: it is simply a statement that rich people will not be able to enter heaven.

Can you read? No really. Do you have a reading disability? Do words on the screen blur into a smorgasbord of meaning for you that you then project onto that blob your poor skills at understanding even common English?

Cook exclaimed, I've heard people try to explain this away in various ways, but it is simply a statement that rich people will not be able to enter heaven.

Hmm. I've heard it said that Eye of the Needle was a euphemism for a certain gate in Jeruesalem (or whatever city) that had quite a low arch. Camels had to be unburdened before being able to pass through, so it was not preferred.

Whatever. It's certainly true that Judaism and Christianity would tend towards communism in the utopian expression of that term. It's a good reason to avoid both religions, but that's for another debate that really isn't worth getting into.

I've heard it said that Eye of the Needle was a euphemism for a certain gate in Jeruesalem (or whatever city)

No Biblical evidence for such a fanciful tale. The impossibility of the wealthy entering Heaven is obvious from context: Christ's statement immediately follows His advice to the rich young man to sell his belongings and give the proceeds to the poor if he wants to gain eternal life.

When Jesus heard this he said to him, "There is still one thing left for you: sell all that you have and distribute it to the poor, and you will have a treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Now, the theology. The message was viewed by the disciples as pretty bleak. In 19:25 -- just after Jesus uses the comparison -- the disciples respond "Then who can be saved?" "By human power, it is impossible," says Jesus. Then adds hope: "With God, *anything* is possible." Even the salvation of the rich. As a miracle.

On the other hand, it would be equally dangerous to argue "but I'm poor, so I'm okay." The words of Jesus are not designed to give *anybody* a false sense of security. My friend the pastor adds, "Apart from the mercy of God, we're all done for."

If you read the entire chapter, Matthew 19, you can get a better idea of the meaning. Strange how people will make fun of people taking the Bible literally and then insist the Bible be taken literally.

Over the years, the number of horror stories of what happened to some woman who went down to the basement of the apartment building to do the laundry has fueled many a cop show episode.

If that's a concern, you could just do it in the bathtub or the sink and hang it up to dry. I've done that with my socks and undergarments on extended hotel stays. It's not that hard, even in an apartment (not that I would do it, if I had the choice).

That said, in the new, yuppy New York, I don't think getting assaulted in the basement laundry is quite the concern it might have been a generation ago. New York may not be quite up to the standards of, say, Tokyo, but it's not total anarchy.

Why put up with these punishing lifestyle issues when you can fly there once a month and partake of all the cultural amenities?

Yes, this. If you have enough money to live in Manhattan, you have enough money to travel there regularly. You could live somewhere that costs less, offers many more everyday amenities, and visit any city you desire whenever you want. There are people in my hometown who do exactly that. Seems ideal.

"If you have enough money to live in Manhattan, you have enough money to travel there regularly."

Not necessarily. I could not afford to move to NYC today, given the rents which are typical. However, I moved here 30 years ago, and with rent stabilization my present rent, although three times what it was originally, is still far below what the apartment would rent for to a new tenant today. (I do live in Manhattan.)

Also, if I left NYC, I would probably not find a job with the same salary elsewhere. I would have rent and utility bills to pay elsewhere that wouldn't be considerably less than what I pay in Manhattan--and might even be greater. If I tried to buy a home rather than rent, that would involve taking on long term debt that I don't presently carry. I would probably have to buy a car--the purchase price itself a great added expense, compounded by the expenses of operating it: gasoline, insurance, maintenance, repairs, etc.

Not even a majority of Manhattan residents are rich and if most of us relocated, we would not have the disposable income to jet back and forth at whim.