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Bug I'm glad we are still here. Hopefully we will be here for a long time nothing wrong with that. Glad to have you in my corner. Things will start to look up when you least expect it. That's how it works.

Don't you know I'm still standing better than I ever didLooking like a true survivor, feeling like a little kidI'm still standing after all this timePicking up the pieces of my life without you on my mindI'm still standing yeah yeah yeahI'm still standing yeah yeah yeahSir Elton John

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Me 57/H 58M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss

Hello Ladyh,Reading up on the last few posts on your thread, I sense the frustration of LBS, and I feel it also. I have lately found myself thinking how like an adolescent my w has acted over the last 9 mos. As someone mentioned here, I would say its accurate that most of us view taking vows as a sacred oath, which is why you do it before God and your family and friends.

I sometimes feel like my w took the vows hoping that things would work out, and if they didnt, oh well, nice try, nothing ventured, nothing gained. Very high schoolish, almost like dating someone senior year, and you know you are going away to college next year, so, you dump the boyfriend/girlfriend to experience the fun of life, because, well, after all your're getting old and you dont want to settle down without being happy.

Bugsy...just found your new thread. Someone posted above about how long this process takes. That stuck with me today as so true. I keep hearing that it takes 1 month for every year married. I'm starting to believe that. If the math is correct I have another year on the crazy train!

Will she? Will she acknowledge it? Will she express it? If the one month for every year guideline holds I too have about a year left. So how to spend it? Holding on waiting for a sign will not do! For me waiting like this will breed resentment.

I will live my life enjoyably. I will meet my obligations. I will be true to myself. I will remember my core values and comport myself within their bounds. If at some point in the future we should come together again I will be doing so from a position of serenity and strength.

I think there's definitely an "actual mileage may vary" caveat to the one month for every year theory. I think there's probably also a minumum length of marriage for it to be valid.

My wife and I were married 18 months before she moved out, so we're coming up on the month and a half point and no change really in sight. I guess you could include our time together before marriage, it would be two and a half years, so 10 weeks. Maybe I can reassess it then. But I do have a couple 'real world' friends I've been confiding in who have suggested she may have to be 'all the way out' - ie, dissolution finalized and all that, before she can consider a reconciliation. I think there may be something to that in my case.

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Me: 36Her: 35Together 7/09Married 8/7/10Separate rooms since at least April 11"I've decided I want a divorce" 12/5/11She moves out of state/files 2/7/12Dissolution final 5/12

Will she? Will she acknowledge it? Will she express it? If the one month for every year guideline holds I too have about a year left. So how to spend it? Holding on waiting for a sign will not do! For me waiting like this will breed resentment.

I will live my life enjoyably. I will meet my obligations. I will be true to myself. I will remember my core values and comport myself within their bounds. If at some point in the future we should come together again I will be doing so from a position of serenity and strength.

Sometimes I am not as articulate as I would like. The guideline has been bantered around and thank you for adding clarity. I did not intend to post simply waiting for an unknown possibility was an option. What I was attempting to post was for there to be any probability of success in a future R we need to grow and be comfortable within ourselves as individuals.

It seems the subject matter of that little detour was apropos to my sitch.

Today marks 1 year since the bomb drop. He moved out, at my insistence, 2 days later.

There has been no relationship talk, really no talk of anything since April. We've emailed because we had kid stuff, financial stuff, tax stuff. He's very cordial but then he's a "nice guy." He's always avoided conflict.

But that's him. It is not for me to judge him or to fix him, something I'm finally learning.

This year has been one of constant growth. After the first couple of months of doing all the wrong things and being consumed in my grief I started searching. I continued seeing my IC, began attending Alanon and CoDa, got in touch with my higher power, took a class on boundaries, learned to meditate, started yoga, road my bike and read and read and read.

About 7 months in I found this place and started posting in Nov. Reading and writing here has been important for me as it gives me a different perspective and forces me to really think about those things that raise my hackles.

It's the responses that cause the WTH reaction, that need to have attention paid.

So that's one thing I've learned in the past year.

What other things would the wiser LaBug have shared with the devastated LaBug of 12 months ago:

Grief-it's a part of the process let it happen but don't let it take over your life. Get someone to help you through it if need be.

Don't blame yourself for everything. You are not that powerful.

Really think about the complaints your spouse has made. You know those you need to work on. They're usually those that make you really angry or cause you to come back with the "yes, but..." responses.

Accetance-when your spouse says they're done and there is no working on it believe that and move forward. Not accepting their decision/choice is a form of control. All the words and energy expended on decrying their choice and exclaiming how crazy or blind they are only keeps you stuck and controlled by the situation.

Anger-lose it, the quicker the better. Think about why you're angry. Is it fear. What are you afraid of? Alanon has a great acronym False Evidence Appearing Real

Resentment-same, lose it. Look at its role in getting you here. Has resentment EVER been helpful to you?

the Stockdale Paradox

Take it easy, one day at a time.

I'm a more complete person after this year and have more honest relationships. I'm learning to set boundaries. I'm addressing my issues with control and fixing others. I now have a better idea of who I am.

This year has been a gift, even if a sometimes painful one. Would I have chosen to have the gift in the form I received it? No. But as I've often heard, bloom where you are planted.

So, what will I do today. I was supposed to have jury duty but it was rescheduled. Bummer. But I will do some yoga, ride my bike, go to an Alanon meeting and see what the rest of the day has in store.

And I say honestly with no remorse, I will miss him and a few tears will be shed today.

But I'm OK and so much better than I was 1 year ago today.

_________________________
Me 57/H 58M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss

Thank you for your post labug, that one really rang true with me today. You have came so far and I know everyone is proud of you. Although not the one year mark for me it's a trigger day here as well so I'll be shedding some tears with you. Hopefully it's as beautiful day where you are as it is in N.C. today, enjoy the day! :-)

I did have one weird moment. There were a lot of people there, lots of young families and couples and I thought "Wonder who of these is going to have the bomb dropped on them this week?"

I quickly dropped that junk mail in the trash and moved on.

You know it's funny you say that. Once you go through something you tend to wonder about/notice whether other people are going through it, too. When I was first diagnosed, I would be at the metro, look at all the people and think, "I wonder how many of these people have had cancer? I wonder how many will?" It's distressing, but also makes you feel less alone to think that others have experienced the same things. Kind of like this board!

Mimi

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M:37; H:37; M:10 years;T:13 years;no kids.Bomb ("I love you, but don't feel things for you I should":1/08/12Separated (H living with various friends:1/18/12Separated (H rented his own apartment:3/4/12

(((La Bug))) There aren't enough words to tell you how strong I think you are. You've been working to change yourself (and save your M) for a year. Not many people (outside of us here) can say they have the patience or the tenacity that takes.

So today, I'm saluting you. Thank you for your advice, and for just being here!

thanks for this post labug - like for everyone else , it helps me immensely.

i can't help feeling struck by your description of how things went for you over the first seven months - mine is so similar including finding this board around the 6th month - so hopefully i will be where you are - strong and wise in another few months

I'm sitting here listening to the sons talking-catching up on games. We stopped and got pizza for dinner and then they carried S22s stuff in from the car and have been making plans for the week. As I said, I'm content to have all my chicks home for awhile. I'm happy that they are moving off into their own lives but it's nice to have them around, too.

H on the other hand is alone in his tiny space and as S told me, "bored to death" as he hasn't been able to work since the wrist surgery. He can't drive much, so is pretty much stuck. S19 is currently mad at him about something so he hasn't been visiting or calling/texting him.

As I said to S22: "I have to believe he's happy with his choice and this is the life he wants to live."

_________________________
Me 57/H 58M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss

rick - i could never listen to the sitar all these years - couldn't stand it and i'm from india to boot. and now, i "discovered" his music and play it while i do my yoga - it's wonderful stuff and so uplifting

tonight i heard a piece that he played with Yehudi Menuhin - there's a whole album, my heart just about melted completely, it was so beautiful and peaceful..

On Sat hosted a small b-day party for a friend at my home. It was fun but a little melancholy as this is the first time I've entertained since H left. We were always a team and then enjoyed rehashing as we cleaned up.

But it was still fun and life is different now.

Met a very dear friend for coffee Sunday morning. She moved to a different town and I haven't seen her since last fall. It was so good to catch-up. We have the type friendship in which we can start the conversation after a length of time has passed as if there was only a pause between sentences. We laughed so much!

I passed my copies of 5 Love Languages, Passionate Marriage, and How to Fix You Marriage Without Talking About It on to her. Might be helpful in keeping her M intact. (I didn't foist them on her, we had talked about it beforehand)

Sun evening I joined some other friends for dinner and the season opener of Mad Men. That was fun!

A good GAL weekend! Now I just need to plan some bigger adventures for the future, especially this summer as it heats up here in the desert. Must escape to cooler climes.

_________________________
Me 57/H 58M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss

rick - i could never listen to the sitar all these years - couldn't stand it and i'm from india to boot. and now, i "discovered" his music and play it while i do my yoga - it's wonderful stuff and so uplifting

tonight i heard a piece that he played with Yehudi Menuhin - there's a whole album, my heart just about melted completely, it was so beautiful and peaceful..

Zig - i got into Ravi through George Harrison. I have always loved the eastern western musical combo. Within You Without You for instance!

Advice please? And isn't it interesting to be able to look at other sitches and provide input, but with our own the knees go weak and the backbone wobbles.

Part 1)H has a lot of stuff (tools, golf clubs, tools, canoe, tools) stored in the garage. In the initial stages of this saga, he had come up a few times and got things from the garage. After that I asked him to respect my space and not come up and take things from the garage without arranging it with me. He agreed. This had been fine-he hasn't asked and hasn't retrieved anything.

This week he asked the sons to bring him something from the garage. It's small piddly thing that has no value for me but I feel disrespected that he didn't just send an email and let me know. I wouldn't ask them to bring dishes, or sheets or towels (that belong to both of us) from his place.

Part 2)I asked him in Jan if he had a plan for what to do with this garage stuff along with some other questions about other issues. He answered the other ? but there was no mention of the "stuff."

My draft: H, I'd like to stick with our agreement about getting things from the garage. An email will do, just to let me know what is being removed.

Also, I had asked a couple of months ago if you had a plan about what to do with your tools, etc. Let me know if you would like to set up a time to get those.

Am I being petty? Am I wanting to contact because I'm missing the contact? Am I just pissed? Does the text sound controlling, resentful, angry?

Thanks, all.

_________________________
Me 57/H 58M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss

La you are having a Rick moment. Do you need the space in the garage? Did your H asking your son to bring him something without u knowing triggered something? I know that feeling very well. Maybe u should put that email away for a few see how feel later. Mnky is right the canoe may come in handy in Vegas.

I guess it all boils down to your true reason for needing this stuff to be dealt with. This is exaclty what you ask us when we're in the same dilemma!

If you have accepted your H's sitch as his sitch and can legitimately reach a state of mind of moving forward with your life then by all means ask him to comply wth the agreement or whatever you want done about it. If however there is some level of pursuit involved then think before you act. And as you well know its so hard to not have some level of pursuit or own agenda in the mix!

Advice please? And isn't it interesting to be able to look at other sitches and provide input, but with our own the knees go weak and the backbone wobbles.

And I completely get this. Happens to me way too much. We're too close to our own sitch's and probably see way too many ramifications of our choices.

yes - so where are the "757 rules" on how to deal with those. i find myself agonizing over little things like that i driving myself crazy trying to figure out how to approach whatever it is at the moment.

just like you, labug, all his 'stuff" is still there. asking him to take it feels like pushing him out the door. letting it stay there, keeps reminding me he's gone. asking him to take it, means finally 'splitting" our stuff - which he has indicated repeatedly that he isn't ready to do

wht did you decide to do finally - ricks advice to wait on it - i have to admit seems the best - i've started to realize it takes a while to work through the emotional reaction, and only when i allow that to pass i gain some clarity and suddenly the answer or strategy pops into my head

i'm trying to remember to do that ALL the time - makes me realize how much, in the past my actions were actually reactions bouncing off my emotions - never knew how to function from another level, but am learning now

Labug, if knowing all his stuff is in there is somehow preventing you from finding peace, then by all means ask him to remove it (except for the canoe -- I'd sell that and buy a kayak, but that's just me).

I can tell you if W moved out and left her clothes in the closets and drawers, that would eventually bother me and I'd want them gone -- I don't need that reminder around you know?

If you can get in touch with your real feelings on the matter and what it comes down to is that having his "stuff" there bothers you, then tell him to clear it out by [the end of April] at his convenience, just let you know when he's coming.

la.. looks like you have had a lot of answers to your question. like you, i tend to act on emotion which often bites me in the butt. giving it a bit of time usually brings clarity and what seemed like such a huge issue becomes a non-issue.

i think you know what to do. but it's nice to have the sounding board isn't it?

btw.. i'm with keeping the canoe! we can ride the canal at the venetian in vegas. save a couple of bucks.

Advice please? And isn't it interesting to be able to look at other sitches and provide input, but with our own the knees go weak and the backbone wobbles.

Part 1)H has a lot of stuff (tools, golf clubs, tools, canoe, tools) stored in the garage. In the initial stages of this saga, he had come up a few times and got things from the garage. After that I asked him to respect my space and not come up and take things from the garage without arranging it with me. He agreed. This had been fine-he hasn't asked and hasn't retrieved anything.

This week he asked the sons to bring him something from the garage. It's small piddly thing that has no value for me but I feel disrespected that he didn't just send an email and let me know. I wouldn't ask them to bring dishes, or sheets or towels (that belong to both of us) from his place.

Part 2)I asked him in Jan if he had a plan for what to do with this garage stuff along with some other questions about other issues. He answered the other ? but there was no mention of the "stuff."

My draft: H, I'd like to stick with our agreement about getting things from the garage. An email will do, just to let me know what is being removed.

Also, I had asked a couple of months ago if you had a plan about what to do with your tools, etc. Let me know if you would like to set up a time to get those.

Am I being petty? Am I wanting to contact because I'm missing the contact? Am I just pissed? Does the text sound controlling, resentful, angry?

Thanks, all.

Maybe just a little petty. But why are you asking questions in this way?

My view is if you want the tools gone, then make arrangements to have your husband remove them within a certain amount of time or you will dispose of them. That will solve your problem.

OTOH maybe you like having the tools around so as to keep some kind of connection to your H. If that is the case then you have to think this through and decide what is more important, your control of things and events or getting rid of the tools.

You guys are so good. Yes, it is a connection. And really the tools don't bother me where they are. What bothered me was we had agreed on a boundary, he would let me know when he took something, and he crossed it.

The more I discuss this the more I think I'm being petty and wanting to contact him.

_________________________
Me 57/H 58M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss

I say if this is the first time he's used your S's to get something, and it really is something small...then just let is slide. If he keeps it up, then have a conversation to remind him of the agreement.

I can see how you'd want to use this as an excuse to reach out to him. Although I don't think it would end up on a positive note, do you? If you want to reach out to him for something, maybe it should be for something more positive...not something that will leave him acting defensively.

If it's the petty side of things, technically you asked him to arrange with you if he was going to come to the house to take things (versus arranging with you if things were going to be removed).

I would imagine he interpreted that to mean that you didn't want him showing up unannounced versus caring that tools were missing, so he probably feels that by asking your son to grab something for him he was actually respecting your boundary.

If he feels it was "his" stuff that your son was retrieving, and he didn't actually come himself to get it, then "no harm no foul" right?

I can see his side of it, he needed the tool and this felt like a respectful way to get it without crossing your line.

That's what I thought too - it was probably a minor thing to him and he was trying not to bug you. (oops that was a pun!)

I think all of our situations create bureaucracy that borders on pettiness - setting up appointments, drawing boundaries, etc, with someone who used to share our home, bed, and toothbrush (maybe for some of us).

What was the intent of the original boundary? To keep him from showing up at odd times taking this and that? In that case it doesn't seem like he broke the intent of the boundary with this one request via your son. Was the intent of the boundary to prevent loss of property without your being aware of it? (If you have sons around I can't imagine you're not used to property moving around and going missing...)

I believe in having boundaries to protect yourself as needed, but more so in being flexible and giving the benefit of the doubt.

I understand wanting to keep his stuff around as a token reminder of him (I have a house, closet, drawers and garage) full of H's things... And I have no desire to remove them.

IMO: Your issue is more with the fact that he's using your sons as a loophole to your boundary agreement, and that's disrespectful. I'm with nhmom, let this one slide, but of it happens again- you have every right to calmly remind him of your previous agreement and that you don't appreciate him putting your kids in the middle of a situation that is between you and him. (I think part of your irritation is the mama bear coming out to protect your kids from something that shouldn't be their drama to solve.)

Thanks everyone for your insight and helping me dig deeper. The stuff in the garage is a dead issue for now.

I posted a bit on ces's thread about why I've continued on my path of being married but not in a marriage. I've been separated for over a year with very minimal contact with H and most people ask, "WHY?"

The bomb was the catalyst for me to wake up and save my life. No, I wasn't suicidal but I was dying a slow and unhappy death. I was simply going through the motions of living life, too afraid of losing "control" to love, to have fun, to enjoy the beautiful things this life has to offer.

Today I started re-reading When Things Fall Apart(Chodron) and am so happy I picked it up again. I first read it in the month or 2 after the bomb and it was difficult for me because I wasn't ready to face impermanence or contemplate letting go.

I opened the book to a random page and read this: "Only to the extent that we expose ourselves over and over to annihilation can that which is indestructible be found in us."

I read that over and over, even highlighted it.

In the course of this year I have had to face my fear, my anger, my guilt, my shame, again and again. I've learned to accept those feelings as a part of me, but they are not me. Feel it, accept it, move on.

Pain happens, it's a part of life but the more I hide from pain the more I miss the good things life has to offer. I controlled in order to keep pain and hurt at bay. By putting up a wall around the vulnerable part of me, I also walled out joy, happiness, love...

From the book: "...things don't really get solved. They come together and they fall apart. Then they come together again and fall apart again. It's just like that. The healing comes from letting there be room for all of this to happen: room for grief, for relief, for misery, for joy."

_________________________
Me 57/H 58M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss

Pain happens, it's a part of life but the more I hide from pain the more I miss the good things life has to offer. I controlled in order to keep pain and hurt at bay. By putting up a wall around the vulnerable part of me, I also walled out joy, happiness, love...

So very true labug!! This is wonderful. I am really glad you picked up the book again and got so much out of it this time. You have come so far in this year (((labug)))

rick - do you mean where do i literally come from, as in which place - or where did what i write come from?

i am going to take the very brave step of assuming first that your question is a compliment? thank you - with a big grin and a bow

(one of the hardest things all my life was accepting a compliment, and now i'm not sure when it is one but i'm doing a 180 for myself and while laughing at myself abit accepting yours)

thank you:)

just like labug - i read pema chodron - repeatedly , and listen to her tapes. even though i know i have some memory issues, i swear every time i reread her books, its like i'm reading it for the first time on a completely different level

also, even though i don't post a lot, i read a lot of threads, and rick, i have never been so inspired in my life to be a better person until i read what all the brave wonderful people here write.

it's not just a roller coaster anymore - its a rolling stone - where each insight leads to the next and the next - and every time i get on here, something hits me when i read it - always always find something that helps me tremendously at just the right time that i need it.

so this place and the people here are teaching me to trust, and to be patient and to love and to be okay with myself

I wasn't suicidal but I was dying a slow and unhappy death. I was simply going through the motions of living life, too afraid of losing "control" to love, to have fun, to enjoy the beautiful things this life has to offer.

are you, like, my twin or something?

Pain happens, it's a part of life but the more I hide from pain the more I miss the good things life has to offer. I controlled in order to keep pain and hurt at bay. By putting up a wall around the vulnerable part of me, I also walled out joy, happiness, love...

something i've been thinking about recently - that h is mirroring now what i was until i woke up. your words above fit me so well until the bomb, and now they fit h so well....

i'm glad you picked that book up again. i am rereading 'The wisdom of no escape" again after several months and the chapter on renunciation really is relevant now. it's like you said - only ready to absorb it when you're ready to do it

i'm sure in a few months when i read it agin, it will be from a very different place.

learning to trust the path and not the goal - i'm just starting to realize is the point and what i should aim for, and in doing that the goal becomes irrelevant.

one thing to know it and write it down, quite another to practice it from second to second.

i love that you quoted here, and shared with all of us. each moment that i am functioning from a compassionate place, is one more moment that i am my higher self

Thanks everyone for your insight and helping me dig deeper. The stuff in the garage is a dead issue for now.

I posted a bit on ces's thread about why I've continued on my path of being married but not in a marriage. I've been separated for over a year with very minimal contact with H and most people ask, "WHY?"

The bomb was the catalyst for me to wake up and save my life. No, I wasn't suicidal but I was dying a slow and unhappy death. I was simply going through the motions of living life, too afraid of losing "control" to love, to have fun, to enjoy the beautiful things this life has to offer.

Today I started re-reading When Things Fall Apart(Chodron) and am so happy I picked it up again. I first read it in the month or 2 after the bomb and it was difficult for me because I wasn't ready to face impermanence or contemplate letting go.

I opened the book to a random page and read this: "Only to the extent that we expose ourselves over and over to annihilation can that which is indestructible be found in us."

I read that over and over, even highlighted it.

In the course of this year I have had to face my fear, my anger, my guilt, my shame, again and again. I've learned to accept those feelings as a part of me, but they are not me. Feel it, accept it, move on.

Pain happens, it's a part of life but the more I hide from pain the more I miss the good things life has to offer. I controlled in order to keep pain and hurt at bay. By putting up a wall around the vulnerable part of me, I also walled out joy, happiness, love...

From the book: "...things don't really get solved. They come together and they fall apart. Then they come together again and fall apart again. It's just like that. The healing comes from letting there be room for all of this to happen: room for grief, for relief, for misery, for joy."

Amazing Post Bug, really resonates w/ me!!!!

Regarding your h's things, this is what you told me when I was dealing with a similar situation.

Bug- Why not just say: "Pick a day and come over and get some things"?

I know the circumstance is different and you have already moved beyond this issue but it goes to the point you made that we are befuddled by every little thought, sign, and action of our own sitch (at least I have been) yet we are able to see things much clearer when other people are going through similar things.

I wasn't suicidal but I was dying a slow and unhappy death. I was simply going through the motions of living life, too afraid of losing "control" to love, to have fun, to enjoy the beautiful things this life has to offer.

I can recall with tremendous frustration trying to convey this to my W. Despite my repeated attempts, I could not find the words and it just kept getting worse and it destroyed me. I was very close to the "end." I've seen so many parallels with the two of us Bug. I'm so happy you have recognized this behavior, because you have helped me in turn - thanks!

ces, yes, today is a day off but I'm going to do 4 hours at my second job. Then I'm off on Thurs. My schedule is different every week.

I'm confused and I warn you I'm tired. My lizard brain comes out to play when I'm tired and wreaks havoc on my psyche.

This is the 6th week of, by my choice, having no contact with H.

Back Story: Both Sons are on H's insurance (it's an HSA), it's always been that way. S22 uses benefits hardly ever. S19 has need to use it more as he has a chronic condition and he's been dealing with depression. He has a history of dep but it was exacerbated by the Sep last Feb and then S22 moving to go to school in Aug. So he's had a few extra visits for that reason. He's also on meds.

He was due for a Rx refill and needed the insurance card to pick it up. H has said for months that he would get S19 his own card but, it hasn't happened yet. So S19 called him yesterday and asked for the card and apparently H was unhappy that he had to drive here and drop the card off. The car S19 drives is currently out of commission, and I was at work.

H lives about 5 miles from the house! Come on, this is your kid! Apparently when he got here he almost literally "dropped" the card off. Did not get out and spend any time with S19, didn't offer to go hang out for a while. They've seen each other once in the past 4-5 weeks. I've suspected for a while that there's more discord between them because there haven't been as many visits as previously.

S19 was pretty down when I got home last night and I tried too hard to make it better. He wouldn't tell me exactly what the conversation was because he's very private about that R but he did say he was tired of taking other people's sh!t. He did say that he thought H didn't like to come here. I asked: "He knew I was at work, right?" "Yes."

So, put your big boy pants on H and help your son out! H is with them as he was with me: everything's OK, everything's OK, everything's OK, WHAM! It's NOT okay.

I'm trying not to read anything into all this because I don't know the whole story. All I know is I saw my kid in pain last night and that hurts but he's becoming an adult and he can and needs to deal with that. His relationship with his father is between the 2 of them.

Also, this hasn't bothered me as much as it would have a few months ago. I can't make H a different person or solve whatever his issue is, I can't fix the R between S and H.

Comments, observations, advice?

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Me 57/H 58M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss

Sorry bugsy! You're right to be upset, and also right about leaving it up to S19 and H to figure out their R.

Kids should never have to fight for their parent's love.

Has S19 ever expressed to your H about how he feels? Sometimes the WAS needs to hear it from the kids to realize how much they're hurting them.

In my sitch, if I tell H what S4 sometimes says, H can get defensive and very immature, often voicing his feelings first. But I think it hits him when S4 says it directly to him. Like yesterday, we were all driving in the car, and out of the blue S4 says to H "Daddy, you don't love me anymore."

It's true that they have to work it out on their own, but I don't think it's wrong to suggest to S19 to express how he feels to his dad. What happens after that is up to them.

NH, I did tell S that he should let H know how he feels. Thanks for suggesting that. Here's the interesting thing, they are very much alike and I only realized that after H left. S19 has a difficult time expressing his emotions, in fact he wants to deny them.

It's all so complicated. Good thing my IC appt is today.

_________________________
Me 57/H 58M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss

All I know is I saw my kid in pain last night and that hurts but he's becoming an adult and he can and needs to deal with that. His relationship with his father is between the 2 of them.

I think that this ^^^^ is the most healthy way to look at things. At some point your son needs to step into the role of an adult and try to work the relationship with your H. It is not something you can influence, one way or the other. You can maybe dispense wisdom if your S asks for it but in the end you are probably best served by staying above thew fray.

when it comes to the kids, it's so hard not to want to step in and say.. "hey! stop hurting my kids!". and then having to step back and say.. oh yes.. it's your kids too.

some of the stuff S says to me breaks my heart but i know if i say anything to H, it will come across as judgement. i've noticed lately that S voices things directly to H.. "why don't you live here anymore? i want you to live here with us!" and instead of just accepting and being quiet.. S is now visibly getting upset. i've noticed it's way more powerful coming from S then it ever could have coming from me.

it does seem like you know what you need to do. you're a very wise.. strong women. i truly admire you.

I'm so sorry that your son is having such a hard time with his dad. I'm in a kinda similar sitch with my H and 3 kids. My youngest (D8) would light her hair on fire at this point if she thought it would get her father's attention. Of course, he doesn't recognize any of it.

In the last several years, as my H has been going through the early part of his MLC (I believe him to now be the poster child of MLC) he has stopped being a co-parent and has been dependent on me to nurture his relationships with our children. Well, that is the one thing that I have been really able to do since bomb drop - not be responsible for his relationships with our children. They are smart enough to see what's going on and who is here supporting them, and who is around only when it suits him.

Hang in there and know that your boys will pull through this, even if we don't like that they have to struggle at all.

Hey Bug, sory you have to see your son hurt like that. Definitely one of the hardest parts of being a parent.

Completely get letting them work their own R out. Doesn't mean support can't be given though. Validation of how son is hurt and taking an opportunity to offering guidance if it happens is ok too IMHO. But your S has to be open to it of course.

If he is like your H, then he may be acting in a way he feels he should by what he has seen. How can he see something more healthy so he can learn a better way?

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Me:45, W:45S:16 D:13M:22, T:25Bomb: July 2010Putting finances in order for "D"Continue to live in same home-separate rooms

what struck me right away in many of the responses as well as yours was that, it doesn't really matter what age the kids are, they all get affected as deeply. i'm dealing with exactly the same thing with s10 right now - and actually wishing that he wasn't like his dad and kept all his feelings in and just let h know how he was hurting. funny how all of us are describing the same traits in the WAS and the kids

i hope that as you talk to your son it encourages him to express himself. also thought i would mention a book i read at the beginning of my switch that really describes how to deal with this - the idea of letting the be responsible for their own relationship. it's called 'The Dance of Anger" by Harriet Lerner and what you wrote is exactly what she talks about and how to get there - really let each member of the family be responsible for their relationship with each other person.

I've gotten to a place where I can see myself separate from the marriage and separate from the complaints that caused H to leave. I am no longer the person he left. I realize and respect the changes in me, I'm a happier person, I have good friends, I have a great work place and enjoyable, rewarding work. I am creating my own life now. I have enough, I am enough.

H can either see that and decide to work on things, see it and decide not to work on things or choose not to see it at all.

All things I can do nothing about and I refuse to spend anymore of my life worrying about what he's doing, how he's feeling, or whether I dotted the i right in my last email to him.

I'm a good person with flaws. But I do think I'm becoming a woman only a fool would leave!

It has taken me a year to get here but his feeling is worth every painful minute of it.

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Me 57/H 58M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss

Yes it was a good Sunday! A beautiful day here in the desert, we've had a nice, long spring and I have enjoyed it.

Rode my bike, did some yoga and saw H who I haven't seen since Thanksgiving (maybe we will have a marriage in which we only see each other on holidays ). He came to help S19 with his car and we got to have a nice long conversation, mostly about S19.

I'm feeling very free right now but will have to sit with this for a while to uncover my true feelings.

Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

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Me 57/H 58M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss

I feel so bad tonight...Let's just say this has not been a stellar day in my history as a mother. I lost my temper with my son, kicked a chair out of my way and banged a wall with my hand. He can be such a hard case sometimes, no drive, no direction, no plan. I was just so frustrated.

I did apologize, not for my anger but for not managing it better. I had even left the house earlier for awhile to get away and cool off.

I feel like all the work I put into improving our relationship over the last year has gone down the drain because I had to act like a child.

Yes, I tantrumed. And I'm sad for both of us. All I can do now is dust myself off and carry on.

And listen when that little voice inside says STOP!

_________________________
Me 57/H 58M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13

Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss