European court charges Greece in Xanthi mufti's case

There are 52 comments on the
Turkish Daily News
story from Jul 14, 2006, titled European court charges Greece in Xanthi mufti's case.
In it, Turkish Daily News reports that:

Turkish Daily News The Strasbourg-based top European court of human rights has ruled that Greece violated the freedoms of religion and conscience by appointing a mufti in Xanthi instead of a mufti elected by ...

<quoted text>The only idiot is you asshole. There is an old saying that goes like this: Better to be someone who knows nothing (a total ignorant) than someone who knows half (half ignorant).The inference of the above statement is: The total ignorant will not speak stupidities and thus - can be taught what is correct. You are far from being a total ignorant. Case closed!

It is no secret that the Turks of Thrace have been oppressed, faced religious discrimination, have had their right to call themselves Turks taken away from them. In fact, many Turks in Greece have had their citizenship revoked for claiming Turkish ancestry. The EU has many times chastised the Greek government for the state terror that they have invoked on the Turkish minority. Also, there were over two million Turks that lived in Greece until the end of the 19th century. What has happened to all of the mosques that were once in Greece? This should be answered by a Greek that questions what has happened to all of the churches that were once in Turkey.The Turks were forced to leave their homes and their businesses behind to the Greeks.My grandmother was one of them. This is a fact.All we ever hear about is the way the Turks treated the Greeks of Istanbul. The Turks did not treat the Greeks well at all, in fact pretty much terribly at the end(1955-1965). This is a Turkish national shame. I truly believe that Istanbul would be an even greater city with 200,000 or more Greek residents still living there. Why we would target our own people, our neighbours is a shameful mystery to me, one that has no excuse!The difference is that the Turks of Thrace are poor and never really had the option of moving, while the Greeks of Istanbul were wealthy and could leave for greener pastures once they felt tormented.

<quoted text>It is no secret that the Turks of Thrace have been oppressed, faced religious discrimination, have had their right to call themselves Turks taken away from them.

Do not confuse the 1.5 million (not two million) ethnic Turks that were exchanged for the 1 million or so ethnic Greeks (population exchanges which occurred in the early 20th century)- with what happened to the ethnic Greeks in Turkey before, during and after these population exchanges. It would be wrong on your part to equate the missing Turks of Greece to the missing Greeks of Turkey. Most Turks in Greece were exchanged for Greeks in Turkey. However, not all Greeks in Turkey ever had the chance to be exchanged for Turks in Greece.

The Greeks of Turkey that truly went missing were not only forced out  but one can say with assurance  wiped out. Although not planned as a genocide  it ended up as so. The authorities probably never intended it to go as far as it did  but the atrocities did happen and the Turkish government is responsible for allowing over one million ethnic Greeks to be sent to their deaths. This was not genocide per say  but a failure to provide for citizens of their country (which included feeding them, housing them and protecting them against the majority). A large portion of the ethnic Greeks died of forced starvation and facing the elements with inadequate protection.

On the issue of the Turks in Greece, they are certainly doing much better than any of their Greek counterparts ever did in Turkey. Furthermore, they are the only recognized minority in Greece (with state protection no less) and they have full citizenship within Hellas. There are less than 2,000 Greeks left in Turkey and growing smaller as each year passes by. How much hate must there be in the hearts of Turks to see that last remnants of Greeks be totally wiped off of Turkish lands?

All this and yet - in Greece, there are 120,000 ethnic Turks (up from 70,000 in the 1950s). They do have the right to practice their religion and Greece has recognized their past mistakes and is agreeing to fund Mosques to be built. What has Turkey done? The Turkish government has stolen almost all of the land of the Byzantine Church, continues to close down religious schools, churches and not to mention  deface Greek historical monuments, plus constantly harasses the Ecumenical Patriarch in Istanbul.

Lastly, on the prosperity issue that you brought up  you are wrong again to equate Greeks of Turkey with Turks of Greece. Why? The answer is simple  even if you look at Greeks of Greece with the Greek/Turks of Turkey  the Greeks/Turks of Turkey were far better off economically than the Greeks of Greece. Back over 60 to 70 years ago  Greece was poor  for all concerned. Turkey was by far the economic engine of the region back then. So your analogy is wrong because obviously, the Greeks/Turks of Turkey should have been better of than the Greeks/Turks of Greece - as Greece couldnt even feed their people back then.

My final point is this  bad things did happen on both sides - but Turkey being by far the superior country in size and strength (economically and militarily) should have been able to quell off any problems without resorting to the tactics that it did.

Even in 1955, after decades of persecuting the ethnic Greeks in Turkey  what was the reasoning for exterminating the final refuge of Greeks within Turkey? This was relatively recent in history and I cannot comprehend why Turkey allowed even those events to occur. I guess Turks truly hate and despise Greeks  so do not be surprised that most Greeks feel the same towards Turks.

How the Greeks in Turkey were treated is not up for argument. I have already stated that I feel that this is a national shame. You are, however, deceiving yourself if you think that the Turks of Thrace are not being harassed, discriminated against and dehumanized by the Greek government. This has been a sore spot between Greece and the EU for some time. I also know that if those Turks of Thrace had the finances that the Greeks of Istanbul had, they too would have emigrated. You did not however answer the question about all of the mosques that were once spread all over Greece. Where are they now? It is easy to sit back and criticize that the Turks have closed down or defaced Greek churches. What happened to all of those mosques that were once in Greece? It is the exact same thing. If you want to criticize the Turks for our treatment of our Greek citizens, by all means go ahead. You have my full support. But try looking at your own country once in a while. It is not exactly Eden.

I have never questioned the treatment of Turks in Greece. However, unlike Turkey, we have come to terms with how we treated them versus how we did not treat them. We are at least trying to get them integrated into Greek society  not force them into integration. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink - is a saying that is appropriate.

The issue of prosperity is about them not wanting to adopt the Greek culture (language in particular) and not wanting to educate their people - in the same way that ethnic Greeks do. I personally know that this is the case and for you to tell me that it is not  only further reinforces to me that you are a bull-shitter.

Only recently, nowadays, have ethnic Turks in Greece realized that the road to prosperity lies in adopting the same beliefs that ethnic Greeks do (not religion) but education, language skills, integration into the Greek way of life - AS GREEK CITIZENS  regardless of their ethnicity or religious beliefs.

You seem to always deflect when I criticize Turkey - deflect to avoid (not only what happened in 1955) but much earlier. The issue of destroyed mosques is a more recent development within Greece when compared to Turkish destruction of Greek monuments and churches. Yes, we did our share of destruction within Hellas  but to use this as a crux for what happened in Turkey  when in reality  it was a Hellenic response to what happened in Turkey to Greek monuments is pathetic. This still goes on today in Turkey so do not placate me as if I were a uniformed child!

You cannot have it both ways - that is - being the victim and the aggressor as you so see fit to choose. This is ludicrous and totally reprehensible on your part. On the one hand, you claim that Turks know how to take care of business  and as witness to this Turkish trait  you ring off in sequence how Greeks were eradicated from within Turkey  at Turkeys will with little effort. You have made no bones about the fact that Turkey has always been superior to Hellas in size and strength  hence your ability to conduct such atrocities at will  atrocities that went above and beyond what was ever called for.

When you are called on it  you then play  the poor Turks in Greece card. Give me a break. They were lucky  and I mean LUCKY that they were not treated wit the same heavy hand that Greeks in Turkey were. How many ethnic Greeks were forced to convert to Islam? Can you answer this? Ill tell you  hundreds of thousands were  at the sword no less. How many Greek children were taken from their murdered parents and raised as ethnic Turks? Can you answer me this question?

Now, look at the ethnic Turks in Greece. They want no part of having a Greek identity  that is  they say they are Turkish  and claim their nationality is Turkish. How can any country integrate people such as this? What I have noticed about you is that you would have Greece bend over backwards and give the world to the Turkish minorities at the expense of not only the ethnic Greek majority  but Hellas as well.

Since when in a democracy, is the minority more important than the majority? If the ethnic Turks want prosperity  it is there waiting for them. All they have to do is reach out and embrace it (and the ethnic Greeks would embrace them as well). The same scenario never applied to the Greeks in Turkey. This is where your logic fails you (as usual).

GFC,How the Greeks in Turkey were treated is not up for argument. I have already stated that I feel that this is a national shame. You are, however, deceiving yourself if you think that the Turks of Thrace are not being harassed, discriminated against and dehumanized by the Greek government. This has been a sore spot between Greece and the EU for some time. I also know that if those Turks of Thrace had the finances that the Greeks of Istanbul had, they too would have emigrated.You did not however answer the question about all of the mosques that were once spread all over Greece. Where are they now? It is easy to sit back and criticize that the Turks have closed down or defaced Greek churches. What happened to all of those mosques that were once in Greece? It is the exact same thing.If you want to criticize the Turks for our treatment of our Greek citizens, by all means go ahead. You have my full support. But try looking at your own country once in a while. It is not exactly Eden.

Very simple really Media, how many people are islamic in Greece today? Would you agree that there are only those in Thrace in any great numbers? Do you agree then that 98-99% of Greece is Greek Orthodox? What use would they be. Ah but I know the Turks way of thinking all too well. Go on, your next point then, I daresay I have a hint of what it's going to be.

Actually, you are an uninformed child that only wishes to see the world through Greek eyes. Every statement that you make stinks of Greek propaganda. The absurd thing about you is that you try and pretend that you would like for Turkey and Greece to make nice and come out as regional powers in the area. Meanwhile, your hatred spews out every time your precious Hellas is criticized.The truth is, Greece would be nothing without the EU. You would still be trying to feed yourselves. We, on the other hand have a young educated population that has moved our economy into the 15th largest in the world. This is despite the EU and not because of it. Why would we need Greece? We are better off just getting along with your EU masters.And why the hell would we need to keep your precious churches around if there is no one here to use them?You seem to think nothing of tearing down mosques that no one will use. And by the way, my ill informed friend, the tearing down of mosques took place immediately after Greece won their independence. The same thing happened in Salonica early last century. Let us not even talk about the treatment of the Salonica Jews by the Greeks who turned them over to the Nazis in order to seize their property and businesses. These were a people that we brought in and protected for centuries and you Greeks took the first opportunity to remove them. Just as you try to remove anyone that is not Greek. They are fine as long as they walk, talk and quack like a Greek.I truly believe that you have no moral values whatsoever, being able to spew out so much trash.The democracy you speak of sounds more like fascism.

<quoted text>Very simple really Media, how many people are islamic in Greece today? Would you agree that there are only those in Thrace in any great numbers? Do you agree then that 98-99% of Greece is Greek Orthodox? What use would they be. Ah but I know the Turks way of thinking all too well. Go on, your next point then, I daresay I have a hint of what it's going to be.

Well if you know what I am about to say then I don't need to say it. I too know Greeks too well, everything of theirs is precious,but anything of ours is trivial.

I told you once before Queen - and I'll tell you again - no hatred on my part. For starters,(to blow off some of your Turkish bravado) the Turkish population isn't as young and as educated as you think - and furthermore - there are troubles on the horizon - so keep a close watch to world events because things are going to get rough. Take note of the quotations around Turkish.

If you understood what I was posting about, hate would not be what you should have taken from them (in relation to Turkey) just plain facts. Its a fact that you mentioned the treatment of the Turks in Greece and the mosques that were destroyed. Its also a fact that Turkey (or the Ottoman Empire) started the dismantling of the Hellenic culture long before any mosques were destroyed in Greece (so go back and read history my uniformed individual). Its also a fact that I admitted that Greeks destroyed mosques in my last post. So obviously  you have a comprehension issue. Go back and read what I said.

Its also a fact that the reason why there are no more Greeks left in Turkey is because they were treated much harsher than the Turks in Greece. Its also apparent now and also a fact that you employ (in your attempt to somehow prove me wrong) negative logic to prove a point. By stating that there are no more Greeks left in Turkey you condone the destruction of what is left of the Hellenic culture in Turkey.

To prove this, here are your own words -And why the hell would we need to keep your precious churches around if there is no one here to use them. Its a fact that this is true  its also a fact that the reason there are no Greeks left is because of the persecution, hatred, murder and annihilation of an entire ethnic group (who lived there for over 3,000) only because they were Greek. Contrast this with the Turks in Greece and the picture is not quite the same  IS IT QUEEN!

Its also a fact that again  you proved me correct in not responding back to any of my posts accordingly. My desire to see Hellas and Turkey become regional superpowers still holds  however  this does not and will never exclude me from calling a spade a spade. I have chastised Greece (and Greeks) before and when they are wrong  I call them on it. I do the same in regards to Turkey and Turks. Unlike YOU, I have remained consistent on these forums for the most part  you however have not and thus  have zero credibility, are a disgrace to humankind and a vulture. You still practice verbal diversionary tactics when someone points out something that you wish to not talk about. This is an unbecoming trait Queen!

Your M.O. on these forums has always been to make a rude-ass remark (off base and untrue) to provoke a reaction  which then claims a counter reaction to your initial reaction  and this is just for starters. I doubt if I could find one decent thread on these forums from you which didnt resort to these stupidities. I have noticed one thing though  that usually  when someone agrees with your crap (a-la-cart) you turn into an angel of sorts. It doesnt wok this way with me Queen  when you are correct - then you are correct  but when you are incorrect or outright lying - then you need to be called in it.

I am not running for office or in a popularity contest so I dont need or feel I have to be nice when someone like you comes along and talks the trash that he does! If you desire real conversation on how Greece and Turkey can get along better  I can oblige (for I truly would like to see this). If all you desire for me is to agree with you all the time even when I know you are wrong  no way!

You are right about remaining consistent, you have blindly supported everything and anything about Greece and the Greek people. You turn a blind eye to their numerous atrocities, past and present. I certainly do not have to make an effort to prove you wrong, you do that all by yourself. You are the one with no credibility on these boards, and I am guessing in life as well.You are a dreamer that weighs on society and that lives in the past. Greece has not done a goddamn thing in the last 2000 years.The last thing I will say to you is this: THERE IS NO HELLENIC CULTURE IN TURKEY.

Can you not use your own words? Must you always repeat what I tell you (like a parrot) reversed and directed at me? In addition, really Queen  bring something substantive to the discussion or get out of my way. I am quite tired and bored (yawn) of correcting you, pointing out your flawed logic and now  mocking your ability to have an intelligent conversation.

On the issue (which I find myself addressing again because you are too stupid to understand that I have touched upon this before)- I have criticized Hellas many times - unlike you who can never see beyond the omnipotence of his own Turkish-ness. That is your problem and a problem that Turkey must tackle (in the present day).

Never owning up to your bad deeds is not the way to move forward. That is something that I know was once true on the Greek side and we have dealt with it and are now ready to move on and have been for quite a while  unlike your people. In addition  idiot (so many times over) Greeks have and still question/challenge their government. If they did not  we would still be ruled by the American propped and supported Greek junta  much in the same way that your people are under the (ultimate final word) control of the military even to this day! Just like sheep to the slaughter  one by one  with notable exceptions  no one dares question the military on Turkey. Tend to your own backyard before commenting on others.

On the issue of the Hellenic culture not existing in Turkey  thank you for proving me correct in pointing out the obvious difference when you cry like a baby about the so-called mistreatment of the Turkish minority in Greece versus what happened to Hellenes in Turkey. Yes, Queen  there was a big difference and you just put the exclamation mark on my point to boot! The Hellenes were wiped off of those lands simply for being Hellenes. The Turks in Greece still exist and we are trying to integrate them as best we can into Hellenic society (it does though take two to tango  so they need to be receptive to this as well).

One more thing  hate is something that I would use to describe how you have treated people on these forums who are not Turkish (in particular Greeks). You obviously have an issue with us and guess what  this back and forth discussion(more like me lecturing you son) serves up as a good example to all concerned that kind of stupidity that got us here the first place (stupidity that emanates from both sides).

Greeks have come to grips with their part of the equation (both good and bad) Turkey has not and will never do this. In their mind  everything they have done to others was justified and everything that was done to them should be classified as an atrocity. Does Turkey not understand that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction?

In any event, everything you post about has double standard written all over it - which you exemplify time and time again when you respond back to one of my posts. The only hate that I have read between you and me (either explicitly stated or subtlety inferred in the posts) has come form you! I am not interested in furthering the discussion on your points of banality any longer. You are a repugnant human being who lacks any type of humanistic qualities which are necessary to bridge the gaps between Greeks and Turks.

KFC,You are right about remaining consistent, you have blindly supported everything and anything about Greece and the Greek people. You turn a blind eye to their numerous atrocities, past and present. I certainly do not have to make an effort to prove you wrong, you do that all by yourself. You are the one with no credibility on these boards, and I am guessing in life as well.You are a dreamer that weighs on society and that lives in the past. Greece has not done a goddamn thing in the last 2000 years.The last thing I will say to you is this: THERE IS NO HELLENIC CULTURE IN TURKEY.Ouch.

I would like to make a few remarks if you let me ,for a change.I feel frustrated sometimes the way people fling atrocities and make totally insensible comments on this forum.Ill take a lighter approach.

My paternal grandmother was from Prizren,Kosovo,my grandfather was from Ohrid(and had his schooling in Monastir) and my father was born in Kavala when his father was posted there.The had to emigrate prior to Balkan War.My lifelong dream was to see Kavala.I had the chance of travelling to Greece three yrs ago.We chose to travel by bus to see more and journeyed via Edirne,Komotini,Xanti and finally arrived at Kavala to stay the night.As I walked through the older districts of Kavala I felt confused ,sad wondering in which house my late father was born.

Our group then moved on to Athens and finally to Salonica.We were well received ;when shopping for souvenirs many shopkeepers ,upon learning we were from Turkey,saidAh,my grandfather was Turkish(they were Greeks ethnically).

Prior to that journey,I had some doubts,I must admit,but in the aftermath decided that Greeks and Turks have arrived at some kind of reconciliation.The recent Turkish tv series has caused an upheaval in Greece where Turkish girl falls for Greek boy!Making of such series was unthinkable a few years back.

We are very much alike,in temperament,values,food,music etc.I love rebetika which surely has its roots in Anatolian culture.

I felt I should write this because this forum is becoming a senseless forum of hate.

There are friendship groups of writers ,poets-they are always one step ahead-and I would like to adress as they do:Kalimerhaba!

Let us not hate each other and let us not teach hate.What is done is done,everyone has regrets, and let us look forward to a better future.No man is an island, as the saying goes.

I agree with King of ALL MEDIA on this matter.The Hellenes in our terms are Rums, so called because they were mostly descended from Byzantines.Byzantium,as we all know,was eastern Rome-hence the Turkish term Rum.Thrace and Balkans were called Rumeli,land of Rum.

The Rum in Turkey mostly Istanbulites, had their own culture which could not be termed exactly Hellenic.They were rejected by their brothers in Greece after the Exchangeand many could not adjust and kept reminiscing for their past life.

Again I must admit they were a colorful component of old Istanbul culture and they are missed.

And please dont forget that Greeks invaded Smyrna and local Rums helped them crying Zito Venizelos when Turks were fighting for Independence.When Turkish army took Smyrna they fled and set fire that couldnt be put out for days .Almost all the buildings were burnt down.This,of course kindled the animosity toward Greeks.Also prior to that, millions had to flee from Balkans,Greece,Bulgaria,Crete .Thousands perished,killed,raped.So you see we all suffered at those turbulent times.

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