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If Liverpool makes a domestic double with carling cup and FA cup and Arsenal finishes 3rd in MUPL, do you guys consider Liverpool's season is failure and Wenger's season as success?

Now a days I don't watch that much of MUPL except the big matches like Arsenal vs City rather last couple of months catching up more on European football but today I was in a pub watching the FA cup Liverpool vs Everton derby.Seeing the joy and euphoria of the Liverpool fans, I felt well these are days fans wait for and really refreshing to see them partying through the night..

Don't want to take away anything from extraordinary turn around of Arsenal and all credit to Wenger for that but as a football fan I'd look beyond always qualifying for the next season in Champion's league and the financial part of it.

To me if Liverpool manages to do a domestic double that will be an excellent performance in football terms and a very successful season.
What do you think?

Because money is all that matters to them and has been some time bnow and tthey are happy to take advantage of honest supporters who naively believe otherwise. Except Mt. Romney I mean Mr. Ryan I mean Rocky. He just thinks being a business is more important than being a football club and supporters should share that philosophy. We should be happy to pay oover the odds for less and less success and to be lied to about this year after year.

As t the question originally asked its this simple are we we a football club we pin our hopes and dreams on or just something we spend lots of good money on just because spending money is better than not spending it?

I would rather have a donestic double at thios point because I don't believe we are just another business as some clearly do or that that those who believe so deeply in this club and and want only the best for it are just coustomers or consumers to be exploited and cheated just so really rich people can be even richer.

Didn't miss it at all - just think you're full of it on this issue. Supporters want to win trophies. Players want to win trophies or make as much money as they can as unlike club owners they are not already millionaires and even in some cases born millionaires as they begin their careers. Only clubs are interested in the CL BS because only the major shareholders care about making as much money as possible on top of what they already have. Only they are that greedy when they choose to be.

Our Board chose greed over custodianship lied about it and got away with it because too many supporters were so invested in our Board not being that way they deliberately ignored the possibility they could be that way even when more and more evuidebnce appeared tthat would have alarm supporters not absorbed with protecting their faith but with protecting their club.

They would rather believe they all made 300m millon pounds by accident or dumb luck or mistake or in spite of themselves or because they had no choice. You want to know why we haven't won anything since 2005. Look in the mirror if you won't look at those who run the Club. That applies to a whole lot of Gooners the past several years.

I said that as a supporter the season is successful for Liverpool (my position can't be more clearer than that can it)

the CL is more important to clubs than the CC or FA cup (that goes for EVERY top club)

it is a known fact that that the CL is an important factor for top players in deciding a move to a club unless there is a ridiculous amount of money involved and even then they still want to play in the CL the next year at said club

the majority of top players want to play against the other top teams and players in the world...nothing beats a match between Barcelona and Arsenal at the Emirates, so the CL isn't just about money to the players

SandyBIf Liverpool makes a domestic double with carling cup and FA cup and Arsenal finishes 3rd in MUPL, do you guys consider Liverpool's season is failure and Wenger's season as success?
Now a days I don't watch that much of MUPL except the big matches like Arsenal vs City rather last couple of months catching up more on European football but today I was in a pub watching the FA cup Liverpool vs Everton derby.Seeing the joy and euphoria of the Liverpool fans, I felt well these are days fans wait for and really refreshing to see them partying through the night..

Don't want to take away anything from extraordinary turn around of Arsenal and all credit to Wenger for that but as a football fan I'd look beyond always qualifying for the next season in Champion's league and the financial part of it.

To me if Liverpool manages to do a domestic double that will be an excellent performance in football terms and a very successful season.
What do you think?

Liverpool owner said start of the season the target is to get top 4. Now the question is would he take third instead of 2 cups?

Liverpool just like us need to attract better players to fight for the league and the CL is what attracts players. Foreign players coming to the PL couldnt care less who won the league cup or fa cup last season. All that matters is that in the summer Liverpool will offer new players Europa league and we will offer them CL football

Im not so sure about this 'lure' of champions league football stuff.i mean city spurs and probably chelsea next year will all off attracted and kept held of top quality players without the cl. In fact if for example a mata situation came up again in the summer and it was a choice between cl football with us or an extra 70k down the road at chelski I wouldnt be so quick to think he'd be rushing our way.plus in our case I dont think it makes much difference because as we dont bring in big names I think most would come anyway to work under a.w and such.where it would effect us is financially of course

70k extra is obviously alot. but is Liverpool gonna offer anyone 70k more than us? Liverpool have already a disadvantage to london clubs when it comes to attract players, and next season will not be any different.

Look at how much money they had last season and the players they got. You really think those players were their first choice? Just like last season they will have to settle for their third/fourth choice players.

We need to bring in better players to compete with man u and man city, no player will turn down CL football to work with Wenger.

its not about the players who we got, more about players we didnt get last season, hence why we struggled to sign anyone early on. We need to sign better players in the summer, so CL football is vital for that

Who do you think will sign then gooney?i cant believe that every year people start believing a.w will suddenly start signing big names.he wont.will be lucky to get pod and that will probably be our lot

we will sign podolski, mvila, vertonghen and we wouldnt get any of these players without CL. Arteta spoke about playing in the CL and why he took a pay cut to come to us. CL is vital and more important than league/fa cup combined.....two pretty meaningless competitions

I agree fully that Champions League football is critical when you have little or no chance of winning anything at all but even then it only gives us an edge over other clubs who win nothing and underpay their best players and anyone who says otherwise is full of it.

Better still name one player who turned down a major domestic league champion offering the same or slightly more money to come to Arsenal. Major Champions would be from LaLiga, Serie A, Ligue Une, the Bundesliga or theBarclaycard Premiership so feel free to name one such player.

The point is if we weren't run by people solely focused on enriching themsleves further since 2005 who sold us to someone even more inclined to think about that rather than to someone who actually knew about and cared about Arsenal Football Club because that would have been even less profitable and just showed a bit more ambition the past six years we almost certainly would have won silverware and possibly major silverware and its quite possible we might have another Premiership trophy or two.

And even if we didn't win one trophy, we wouldn't be broke, the shareholders still would have made some good money and we wouldn't feel like we were being cheated by these ticket prices and taken for mugs as we do and are.

To put it into context the £3m prize money just for winning the last 16 round of the CL is about the same as the total money for going through all rounds and winning the FA cup ( 6+ games). Clubs priorities aren’t going to change with that sort of difference in revenue.

Liverpool have won the cl twice on recent history that's why they can attract the likes of Suarez alonso Torres etc. if they keep winning cardboard cups and finishing 8th however, those days will be behind them

We haven't done a domestic cup double for nearly 20 years, despite being very successful in between then and now, it's a great achievement and one that totally dwarfs qualifying for the Champions League.

As fans we want silverware, not qualifying for a tournament which only breeds annual disappointment and will continue to do so unless a) dramatic improvements are made to the squad and b) if Real and Barcelona fall off the face of the continent.

Precisely Rock so name a player who has decided playing in the Champions League at a club that has shown no sign of winning anything the last six years and pays less than any top major club that has won its domestic League bar maybe Ligue Une now.

The point is the Champions League only gives us an edge over non-CL teams which generally pay less than we do. Non-CL teams that pay more than we do can sign players we would sign otherwise so we lose the players at the level we are willing to pay for too as well as those players we simply cannot afford because some big money club will outbid us.

Yet we have 160-170 million pounds banked away not going to repaying any of our debt. Funny that.

Shane1988We haven't done a domestic cup double for nearly 20 years, despite being very successful in between then and now, it's a great achievement and one that totally dwarfs qualifying for the Champions League.
As fans we want silverware, not qualifying for a tournament which only breeds annual disappointment and will continue to do so unless a) dramatic improvements are made to the squad and b) if Real and Barcelona fall off the face of the continent.

Cup double, everyday of the week.

This.

The CL is overhyped nonsense especially with regard to Arsenal fans. There is virtually no chance we could win it with the squad we have. And as Wenger has a fear of spending money on big stars our position won't change. So attracting big stars is a false argument, even more so when those that become stars at Arsenal soon get lured away by big money elsewhere.

The CL operates under a misnomer anyway. The majority of teams in it are not current champions. I would have more respect for it if it was just champions competing. This obsession with it has skewed our league.

gooneywe will sign podolski, mvila, vertonghen and we wouldnt get any of these players without CL. Arteta spoke about playing in the CL and why he took a pay cut to come to us. CL is vital and more important than league/fa cup combined.....two pretty meaningless competitions

ok gooney i am quite happy to have a bet with you now we will not sign these 3 players?

No question. It terms of continued success there houldnt be an argument. Ecl every season. Winning a domestic cup double is a very short term and short sighted pick me up. The lure is only because we haven't won anything in a while but it means less than playing in the ecl in terms of keeping up with the jones'.

who the feck cares about the league cup? It means nothing and FA Cup is not better than CL football. Some people have bought in to the hype of greatest cup competition in the world. I agree with Wenger that its only 2 competitions that matter

Then there are the players who left because we were to cheap to invest in kepping them. Better to overpay unproven and unfulfilled potential then to pay players like Ashley Cole, Edu, Robert Pires, Mathieu Flamini.

Of course they are just greedy money-hungry @#$%& those awful players who were born without much if any at all. Meanwhile the multimillionaires born into wealth happy not to invest any of that wealth into the club they inherited or bought into for a pittance who happily overcharge good supportes for a cheapened product and then refuse to invest the additonal profits and make 300 million pounds for themselves off it they're just good honest honorable businessmen. Okayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy Sure Mr. Romney

We all know players play for silverware or for silver, and prefer that to fourth place and no trophies and it is a lie to say otherwise. A lie. The only people who believe what you do are the millionaires profiting from this philosophy. The Supporters and the players don't believe it and once upon a time no one at Arsenal did.

Nice try Rocky but the fact is we could easily have paid Cole what he wanted - the Board chose not to and the Premier League report confirms this. And the agent's fees claims were proven false as well. Eduardo tried this false propaganda but feel free tor try it.

As for the others. What pure tosh. We could easily have paid more in each instance without going broke. And again you ignored my other point what is so wrong with players wanting money they actually earned with their effort on the pitch when there is nothing wrong in your eyes with the nmillionaires running the club manipulating the Club's finances so they could maximize personal profits on holding they inherited and never paid a penny for or paid a minimal investment on?

What is it Mr. Romney, or is this Mr. Ryan only the already wealthy deserve to be even richer? It's sad to see the Club decry the greed of players while engaging in selling the Club for virtually every penny they could possibly get without regard to rthe consequnces for the Club. And even sadder to see supporters so in love with old money traditions let them get away with this hypocrisy.

We paid two players over 100K a week from a 64 million pound wage bill in 2004. The idea that we could not have paid any of these players what they merited now is simply dishonest. Our wage bill now is 130 million and we don't pay any player 100K a week. We could have signed any of those players but the Board was manipulating the Club's money to maximize the share price.

Nice try look how long we persisted with players who never made or aren't gonna make it at a Club who wants to win things - Denilson, Bendtner, Djourou, Gibbs, Almunia, Chamakh, even Rosicky,

Nasri had two sold years at Arsenal. No he wasn't Pires or Overmars or even Reyes but he was solid and better largely than his replacements have shown to this date. Potential is nothing until its fulfilled, and he was improving even then. Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain is exciting potential but that is all he is largely. He deserves proven quality in front of him to guide him toward fulfilling that potential.

hippogunnerWinning trophies is what players want too, not just fans. That's why a lot of our best players have left.
A trophy is far better than finishing top 4 for the next twenty years with no trophies.

Seriously? Players would rather win the league cup or fa cup than play in the ecl year in and year out? I'm pretty sure the consensus would end up going the other way.
I would consider Winning a cup as great only if it's coupled with finishing in the top 4. No one with any real ambition would consider a cup win a success in itself. Ecl qualification is not a 'success' as well if were ambitious but it's certainly better than a domestic cup win.

If we won the CC and the FA cup but lost out on Cl qualification then there would be an uprising, if we secure 3rd place and win nothing then by measure of our start to the season then yes it will be a successful one, it pains me to say it but it is true.

I think if we missed CL Football and nothing there would be an uprising yes. But not if we won two cups that year. We can argue the long-term ramification of that scenario for the Club and the Team financially but the fact is our supporters or the vast majority of them do not see Champions League qualification as our sole or primary goal let alone measure of success.

On Nasri - I would not have offered 150K a week. However if we had bought a couple of top quality players I don't think that would have been necessary anyway. I also think if we had offered him 100-110K a week without buying those quality players he probably stays as well. We don't have to match the bigger spebnding clubs really especially if wessactually win trophies. the idea that we can under pay our best players because they just want to finish top four is ludicrous or these players are an embrassment to Arsenal Football Club and themselves period.

On this season vs Liverpool's in 2005 no way would I make that trade. Maybe not even in 2008. But now. Absolutely. Football Clubs are about achieving competitive success as the supporters dream of, not operating with the best profit margin. Ifanyone thinks a football club is about financial success ahead of footballing achievement maybe they need a new sport like watching the financial networks and rooting for their favorite stocks or commodities. So in 2012 yes I would trade places with them or at the very least want our club to want at least that much real success on the football pitch.

RadioFreeArsenalI missed your fist question Gooney so I'll answer both
On Nasri - I would not have offered 150K a week. However if we had bought a couple of top quality players I don't think that would have been necessary anyway. I also think if we had offered him 100-110K a week without buying those quality players he probably stays as well[u][/u]. We don't have to match the bigger spebnding clubs really especially if wessactually win trophies. the idea that we can under pay our best players because they just want to finish top four is ludicrous or these players are an embrassment to Arsenal Football Club and themselves period.

You have no way of knowing if that is true.

On this season vs Liverpool's in 2005 no way would I make that trade. Maybe not even in 2008. But now. Absolutely. Football Clubs are about achieving competitive success as the supporters dream of, not operating with the best profit margin. Ifanyone thinks a football club is about financial success ahead of footballing achievement maybe they need a new sport like watching the financial networks and rooting for their favorite stocks or commodities. So in 2012 yes I would trade places with them or at the very least want our club to want at least that much real success on the football pitch.

It is more to difficult to qualify for the Champions league than win our domestic cups. So it's a greater achievement for Arsenal on the pitch putting aside any financial advantages.

So how can your view be dead-on but mine be so hard to prove? The fact that you'd rather believe that? No offense but that is not much of of an argument and wouldn't be if I offered it either.

I would say historical fact and looking at players of all sorts at anumber of clubs in football over the years supports my contention far more than yours and that is 100% true. Players who are properly paod or win silverware annually or close to it tend to stay with their clubs regardless of what they could make elsewhere. This doesn't just apply in football but in many top pro sports.

So let's see finishing as the one team at the end of a cup competition is less of an achievement than finishing as one of four teams that are only four of 32 teams placed in a competition. Orwellian logic lives on.

No I think they have built sides capable of fionishing in the top four and winning cup comptitions or reaching the finals. I guess that's just a bit much to ask of Arsenal even with all the money we have made.

Again the question isn't what the Clubs think. It's what we as supporters not as financial bean counters think. Maybe if some supporters were involved in some decisions we would not be having such debates because we would be winning some triophies and qualifying for the Champions League again like 1998-2005 when we won seven trophies and qualified for the Champions League every year even when only the top three qualified for the Champions League.

Just because Ivan Gazidis would rather gop trophylerss and finish third or fourth because that is good for our finances doesn't mean supporters do or have to feel the same way at all.

First of all when has Gazidis or Wenger ever said they don’t want to win trophies? We were in the final of league cup last season. Like I said if you are sying what do you want CL football or league/fa cup....personally I think CL is more important. Also the idea that Nasri would stay is laughable, explain why he turned down Man u for Man City if its not all about money?
Also supporters being involved in decisions is laughable. You really think you have knowledge that our board dont have about running clubs? You really think we don’t ant to win trophies at all?

No matter how you twist this league cup means feck all and I have already said before, John henry said Liverpools goal for the season was to be in the CL. He never said winning trophies. It shows you why Commolli got sacker.....Maybe you should tell liverpool owner they were doing fine as he clearly didnt think so

Actions speak louder than words Gooney and you know that. It's easy to say we want to win tophies while choosing not to make the improvement you know you need to make to win them because you don't want to actually spend the money needed to make that happen - or are you gopoing to tell me we should accept whatever Club officials say as 100% unvarnished fact and Gospel truth? Please.

And I think you should remember that Liverpool hadn't appeared in the Champions League for the past three years or so which actually would make the idea that they need to finish top four make a bit of sense since they se4em to re-invest considerably more of their club's money into their football team as opposed to us.

liverpool also didnt win a trophy in 6 years before this season...so if your theory is right, shouldnt desire to win trophies be more important? Like I said, Henry said he wanted CL football and is disapointed with the season. Do you think if they went out early in the cips and were third Commolli would be sacked? I dont think so

It absolutely should. All I said was I understand their desire to make Champions League football also because they will re-invest the money they make from it rather than withhold spending it to push profit margin up and favborably affect their share value.

Again you seem to be ignoring the reality that we are football supporters not corporate shareholders. You seem to believe that footballing loyalty is embracing the Club's business model without hesitation or question. I believe while most supporters do care about the Club's long-term survival and even its business success we rightly care more about footballing achievements first and foremost as do theowners and Boards at most of the truly great football clubs in the World.

there is room to be successful financially and still be successful competitive. They just don't care at Arsenal. They are happy with solely achieving financial success and will continue to be so long as we let them get away with it or when we finally crash and burn from this policy.

I dont care about titles....its not like winning titles will make me support Arsenal more. League cup means feck all and I love the CL and playing against teams from another country is what its all about.

They care about Arsenal, and they have done great job so far to make the club the elite the club it is today. Pompeys old owner didnt care about the club and we see where they are today. So dont act like they are ruining the club when they really are not

@ Zainy, according to Lee Dixon (or it may have been Keown) players love to win trophies. More so than finishing fourth every season. Surprisingly enough at the end of their careers players like to show their grandchildren medals not pick up a soccer annual and point out fourth place.

Of course they don't Gooney but they played with a lot of players so I imagine they knew how many of them felt. League Cup may mean nothing to you but I suspect those who win it may have a different opinion.

Again hippo it is a short term pick me up but the end of the day it no one would be happy finishing outside the top four even if we won the league cup.
There is quite a simple question which illustrates the point and it's already been asked before on this thread. Would you swap our season for birminghams season last year or portsmouths season in 2008?
Id love for us to win the fa cup again but not at the expense of the most important front of the campaign- the league.

Gooney that is the most screwed up post I have ever seen. You are basically sounding like a trained corporatist monkey. Competing for let alone winning trophies is meaningless to you. You "don't care" (your precise words) about winning the League at all ever because you care more about the club being financially successful.

Serious;u you dismiss the words and achievements of some of our greatest players ever because they don't line up with the business model practiced by the Club. You call out Martin Keown and Lee Dixon and suggest they are out of line for suggesting that actually winning trophies means something to the players who work for and in them and the supporters who urge them on come hell or high water. You dismiss the words our two of this Club's finest and most decorated sergvants and question their credibility to defend the investors and profiteers. Shameful really.

And even more shameful is how you fall back on the fiction they happily encourage you to believe - that doing anything even a bit differently will doom this inevitably to bankruptcy which is 100% fiction. There is no one saying saying spend more than we actauuly have on hand, or even all of what we have on hand. NO ONE. And you KNOW it.

But defending the Club's owners and investors is more important than the Club itself to you apparently. You seem to almost hate those who do not share your views no matter how much plasure they brought to you and I daresy you celebrated their achievements more than you have Peter Hill-Wood's, Stan Kroenoke's, Ivan Gazidis's or certainly Lady Bracewell-Smith's, or even the late Mr. Fiszman's. I could be wrong. But let's call it a hunch that I am not, and now you show this sort of contempt to those sorts of Arsenal heroes and legends for daring not to tow the corporate line you do? Sad really.

if league cup was that important....why do teams play their reserves players? I think you are the one overrating the league cup.

You lot are such a hypocrits, you want top players, but guess what? They cost alot of money. CL football gives you plenty of money....the league cup and the fa cup dont. Basically you want the owner to pay for everything, but this owner is not. So we need CL football more than effing cups.

gooneyif league cup was that important....why do teams play their reserves players? I think you are the one overrating the league cup.
You lot are such a hypocrits, you want top players, but guess what? They cost alot of money. CL football gives you plenty of money....the league cup and the fa cup dont. Basically you want the owner to pay for everything, but this owner is not. So we need CL football more than effing cups.

That's just it. People have said they don't mind us finishing outside the top 4 for many reasons and then in the next breathe moan that we don't spend enough money. Boggles the mind.

And as Rockstaar says the game has moved on. It's nie to reminisce but te reality as with most things in life is that things change. Football ha changed and I you want to see arsenal football club compete consitantly for the league title the ecl is going to do a lot more for that than domestic cups with regards to providing money and attracting better players.

No one is saying qualification for the Champions league isn't good or even necessary. What is being said is the idea that winning trophies is less important is just wrong.

Look at 1998-2005 the greatest sustained period of success at Arsenal Football Club bar none certainly since before the Second World War. We won seven trophies, including three Premier league Championships, and four FA Cups, the Double on two occasions and of course were Undefeated League Champions in 2004, and won the League on the grounds of our two most hated foes. We also never finshed below second in the Premiership and qualified for the Champions League every single year of that run.

But don't forget we didn't win a single trophy from 1999 to 2001 a run of three trophy less seasons in amongst all the success and excellence. But we won seven trophies around those years under Arsene Wenger, and let's not forget the five trophies won under George Graham from 1989-1995 before that, and of course the League Cup win over Liverpool in 1987, the platform on which the success of George Graham's teams was built.

The point is simple in this context - trophyless since after 2005 never finishing above third in the Premiership winning any trophies would matter more to supporters who want this club to be successful on the pitch and not solely on the stock market. Three straight top two finishes but no trophies fron 1999-2001 was disappointing and frustrating certainly but not some disaster given that we had won eight trophies since 1986 and would win five more from 2002-2005.

Trophyless for seven seasons now and no better finish than third in the League isn't nearly so acceptable given that with a bit more financial ambition that dry run could have been abreeviated or avoided altogetherand won even a trophy or two which would would have made this barren run seem far less significant than it has proven.

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