I thought those of us who don't understand why people "are Christians" could maybe pose some questions, and perhaps get some answers to help us understand them. I get the part about being nice about it. It's not a thread for name calling and confrontation.

But it seems the intent was more for you Christians to get together in a thread and sing songs around the campfire. More power to ya!

I did not create this particular thread but I can assure you that this is for all people.

I think some of the questions by BR for example have been thoughtfully and correctly answered by Camp David.

What is the problem? I don't see the problem.

God allows man to have free will.

Man does do evil and this is a fact. Don't blame God for what man does.

Ask all the questions you want.

Fellows

May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

If you're saying that no one argues whether the Good Samaritan actually existed, I would have to disagree with you. Plenty of well-meaning Christians argue with all their power to do so that every story and every detail in the Bible is 100% true and fact, to be taken literally. Fellowship himself believes that the Earth is less than 7000 years old because that's what the Bible tells him, and the Bible is FACT, not allegory.

What does it matter at all if the "Good Samaritan" did exist? Jesus was telling a story and he suggests what it means to be a neighbor by asking just who in his story was being neighborly.

Please by all means read Luke chapter 10 vs 25-37 and you tell me what difference it makes.

How pointless to debate if the "good samaritan" existed when the real matter is learning the point of Jesus's questioning to the one questioning Jesus.

issue number 2 that you raise is the age if the Earth.

I don't claim to know the age of the earth. I once argued that in my view God "could have" created a mature universe when he created it which (this very creation is not as old as it may appear) in such an idea.

Get your mind around that one.

When God for example created Adam was Adam an adult? a baby? 2 cells of life?

Same goes for all of creation. We don't really KNOW. None of us.

Fellows

May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Because that would wreck their idea of a friendly god. The reality according to the bible (if you don't pick and choose what to believe) makes god out to be what society would think of as "an evil person".
But, again, they don't want that demonstrated in THIS thread.

From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...

"Love is not real unless we have the ability to not love. One of God's attributes is omniscience. God knew that in a world with choice, there would be much evil -- to choose not to love is evil by definition. However, there would also be the capacity for real love."

Love is not real unless we have the ability to not love...

Please think about this for several days and get back to me.

Now consider the following:

Quote:

"The "Problem of Evil" is a philosophical stumbling block for many people. Since the empirical evidence for creation, and therefore a Creator, is stunning (see prior discussions), many atheists attack biblical creation on philosophical grounds. The primary questions atheists pose are: "If God is real, and God created everything, why did He create evil?" "Why did a personal, loving God create a world in which evil exists?" "Why did God give man freedom to commit evil acts?" Atheists reason, "Surely, an all-knowing God of love would not allow evil to exist in His world."

The response to the foregoing is summed up in God's nature and His desire for mankind. Look at the logic: How could God allow for love without the potential for evil? God could have created robots that do nothing more than forever say, "I love you, I love you, I love you." But such creatures would be incapable of a real love relationship. Love is a choice, and the Bible says God desires a real love relationship with His creation."

Look, I've seen those justifications many times before and have thought about them. I'm not asking for robots that repeat an "I Love You!" mantra. Yes, a contrast does help make the good times better. However, do we really need the utter depths of evil in this world? Do we really need random evil, both human and natural? Did your god not foresee the immense suffering of plenty of good people? He was really OK with that? No compassion there?

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” -Sagan

Look, I've seen those justifications many times before and have thought about them. I'm not asking for robots that repeat an "I Love You!" mantra. Yes, a contrast does help make the good times better. However, do we really need the utter depths of evil in this world? Do we really need random evil, both human and natural? Did your god not foresee the immense suffering of plenty of good people? He was really OK with that? No compassion there?

His god chose to anhililate the entire human pollution with a world flood (Noah). His god chose to wipe out an entire city of humans (Sodom and Gomorrah). His god awarded Lot with survival after he offered up his virgin daughters to a gang-rape. (but killed his wife for merely looking over her shoulder.) The bible is full of examples where the people god favored were involved with murder, incest, warmongering, etc. Didn't god himself rape Mary to create Jesus?

I would like to know how Christians are able to wrap their minds around such things and still tell themselves god loves humans. Really... I would.

From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...

I thought those of us who don't understand why people "are Christians" could maybe pose some questions, and perhaps get some answers to help us understand them. I get the part about being nice about it. It's not a thread for name calling and confrontation.

But it seems the intent was more for you Christians to get together in a thread and sing songs around the campfire. More power to ya!

Actually, as I understand it, the purpose of these new 'religion' threads is to find common ground that transcends the actual beliefs and non-beliefs of the possible participants, to give people a chance to post something interesting that is maybe not so widely known and for someone to describe how and why what they believe enriches their lives.

Basically: to take a completely different approach than we have ever done before in matters of religious discussion.

So far we've done it a bit and it's great!

We just need to train ourselves not to fall back into the old habits - it's a good thing: I'm having to rein myself in about 5 times a day!

All these questions are welcome but In some way, they are questions with no answers. No religious discussion here has ever really changed anyone's mind has it? Has it really ever 'got anywhere' ? I think not.

This is a new experiment to try to 'not get anywhere' and just share things from a different angle.

As to the questions about specific aspects of theology and 'God' - these are great too but imo - and it is only my opinion - they distract from the purpose of the thread so I can;t personally join in or contribute to those here.

But maybe I am wrong - I agree with your first statement about asking questions to help understand why someone is a Christian. But maybe we just need to work to find out the right questions to ask.

Has anyone asked that yet for example? Why not just ask one of the Christians why they are one and how they became one rather than discussing the nature of their beliefs?

If someone does eventually start the Official Atheist thread then my question there won;t be about proof and so on - they'll be like "When did you start thinking about these things?" and "what made you first decide to become an atheist?" or "how do you feel it improves your life on a daily basis?"

I am not a Christian btw and I'm tone-deaf so I don't think I'll be round the campfire...I'd be tied up in a tree like Cacofonix the Bard.

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad

His god chose to anhililate the entire human pollution with a world flood (Noah). His god chose to wipe out an entire city of humans (Sodom and Gomorrah). His god awarded Lot with survival after he offered up his virgin daughters to a gang-rape. (but killed his wife for merely looking over her shoulder.) The bible is full of examples where the people god favored were involved with murder, incest, warmongering, etc.

My take is that there are humans and there is God (bear with me for arguments sake).

If God communicates or acts then by definition the act or communication will not remain intact - it will be subject to human interpretation.

Sometimes, perhaps many times, believers may feel that God want them to do something, has told them something and it is just coming from their own ego or desire.

This is not an argument against God. It is an argument against the human condition.

Imo the Bible was written by humans. Humans almost 4000 years ago or more in some cases. Can you really claim to hold their interpretations up to a modern standard - it's unworthy imo.

You might as well find some document from a citizen of the Lower Delta in Egypt at the same time if you could and haul it before a forensic enquiry on the charge it does not square with modern rational knowledge.

It's silly. Why don't you take the Bible for what it is.

Besides, to discard something because someone else has misused it might be the height of folly.

Quote:

Didn't god himself rape Mary to create Jesus?

Disingenuous...is a bit of an unworthy comment I think.

Quote:

I would like to know how Christians are able to wrap their minds around such things and still tell themselves god loves humans. Really... I would.

I would rephrase this personally as to how humans have this capacity.

If you are right and this is a real problem then if you solved it in the case of the Christians somehow it would still exist in virtually every other human area.

So really, do you want to understand this? Or just understand it in relation to religion?

If it is the former then you might need to broaden your field of research into psychology.

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad

Well.. to continue your line of sophomoric reasoning one could also likewise ask did God create the iPad? The answer is no of course; mankind develops with his own God-endowed intellect and mankind creates a world of his own choosing. Along the way mankind's ability shapes his own world, with inventions and social mores of his own choosing. So too with man's choice of evil. God did not create evil nor did God deny man evil. That free will I spoke of earlier is key here. Do not blame God for man's demise.

So, you are saying that biblical creation didn't happen linearly? Is that correct?

I'm not a literalist with regard to the creation story. However looking at cosmology, our present rules and constants clearly breakdown when the Big Bang is in the midst of... banging into existence. Since time is a function of space, when space is expanding into existence from a singularity, so is time. One does not function without the other.

So really, do you want to understand this? Or just understand it in relation to religion?

If it is the former then you might need to broaden your field of research into psychology.

I understand good/evil just fine... I'm trying to understand why some people need to invent a "god" to be able to square things personally. A person can understand love and hate, good and evil, wright and wrong without inventing god. In fact, that very invention, and the human psyche that goes with it seems to have caused as much problem in this world as anything else.

Kum bay yah! (sp?)

From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...

I understand good/evil just fine... I'm trying to understand why some people need to invent a "god" to be able to square things personally. A person can understand love and hate, good and evil, wright and wrong without inventing god. In fact, that very invention, and the human psyche that goes with it seems to have caused as much problem in this world as anything else.

Why don't you ask them then? Of course I wouldn't phrase it like "why do you invent..." if you genuinely want an insight but that's up to you.

Unfortunately I cannot comment on your other points for reasons I've already stated - though if I did I would demolish them. You could demolish them yourself - which is better all round - if you think about it deeply.

I would say this though: are you seriously suggesting that that the human psyche responsible for what we are here calling 'evil' (which may not be btw - no-one has yet answered my questions on what evil is, what they think it is or how they would define it and what value 'good' would have if it did not exist) exists only in a religious framework or even predominantly in a religious framework?

It's difficult to believe and easy to refute. All we would need to do is to look at Court and Police records of crimes committed surely? From there we could correlate the religious or other views of the perpetrators.

Quote:

Kum bay yah! (sp?)

I say it again: I am not a Christian so this is a wasted reference to me and I also think that we can all be sarcastic - in fact I am better at it than you, I am the all-time heavyweight champion.....but I am refraining...be good if you could too.

Debate is much better no?

So, another question: could you define 'evil' for me? In your opinion does it exist? If so what is it and where does it come from?

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad

Why don't you ask them then? Of course I wouldn't phrase it like "why do you invent..." if you genuinely want an insight but that's up to you.

Unfortunately I cannot comment on your other points for reasons I've already stated - though if I did I would demolish them. You could demolish them yourself - which is better all round - if you think about it deeply.

I would say this though: are you seriously suggesting that that the human psyche responsible for what we are here calling 'evil' (which may not be btw - no-one has yet answered my questions on what evil is, what they think it is or how they would define it and what value 'good' would have if it did not exist) exists only in a religious framework or even predominantly in a religious framework?

It's difficult to believe and easy to refute. All we would need to do is to look at Court and Police records of crimes committed surely? From there we could correlate the religious or other views of the perpetrators.

I say it again: I am not a Christian so this is a wasted reference to me and I also think that we can all be sarcastic - in fact I am better at it than you, I am the all-time heavyweight champion.....but I am refraining...be good if you could too.

Debate is much better no?

So, another question: could you define 'evil' for me? In your opinion does it exist? If so what is it and where does it come from?

Quote:

could you define 'evil' for me?

I can answer that one. Choosing to act in a negative way upon another individual or group for personal pleasure or gain. Where does it come from? Us. The one's with the big cerebral cortex and the power to reason the difference and to choose to do it anyway.

Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination

I can answer that one. Choosing to act in a negative way upon another individual or group for personal pleasure or gain. Where does it come from? Us. The one's with the big cerebral cortex and the power to reason the difference and to choose to do it anyway.

I can answer that one. Choosing to act in a negative way upon another individual or group for personal pleasure or gain. Where does it come from? Us. The one's with the big cerebral cortex and the power to reason the difference and do it anyway.

Ok..I agree completely.

So it follows then that the problem is within us and is a natural human condition then? Would you agree with that?

If you do then it also means, by definition, that it is equally to be found across the spectrum: atheists, believers, agnostics - all in the same boat.

It is not therefore possible to say that religion is the cause of it. It is a human proclivity and as religion is also then the two will coincide.

You might as well take the sum total of past religionists and say "look they all died - 100% of them. And 100% of them were religious therefore religion is the cause of their death" - in fact that is an exact analogy of that reasoning.

We can do better.

The focus is therefore switched from religion being the cause as to whether religion tries to eb an antidote. And it does.

You could argue that it fails - and maybe it does - but it acknowledges the problem and tries, that is a long way from being the 'cause'. I don't think such claims are particularly helpful but worse, they are not even very perceptive.

We can do far, far better - even arguments against religion could be increased ten-fold in lucidity from that.

Let's find some better ones!!!

Thanks for the input so far everyone btw...

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad

So it follows then that the problem is within us and is a natural human condition then? Would you agree with that?

If you do then it also means, by definition, that it is equally to be found across the spectrum: atheists, believers, agnostics - all in the same boat.

It is not therefore possible to say that religion is the cause of it. It is a human proclivity and as religion is also then the two will coincide.

You might as well take the sum total of past religionists and say "look they all died - 100% of them. And 100% of them were religious therefore religion is the cause of their death" - in fact that is an exact analogy of that reasoning.

We can do better.

The focus is therefore switched from religion being the cause as to whether religion tries to eb an antidote. And it does.

You could argue that it fails - and maybe it does - but it acknowledges the problem and tries, that is a long way from being the 'cause'. I don't think such claims are particularly helpful but worse, they are not even very perceptive.

We can do far, far better - even arguments against religion could be increased ten-fold in lucidity from that.

Let's find some better ones!!!

Thanks for the input so far everyone btw...

Of course we could do far better. However I see us as a work in progress ( hopeful ).

Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination

I'd like to go into evil some more (mwhahah) - anyone feel free to weigh in with their opinion on this.

Is it not possible that the capacity for 'evil' is a by-product of evolutionary consciousness?

What I mean is, if you look at the Animal Kingdom, the lion or other predator will target the weakest/youngest antelope.

If they could rationalize (in another sense than you used it!) the antelope would label this 'evil'. But is it?

What do you think?

The lion is simply doing what it must to survive. Using the tools evolution has provided. If he/she was self aware enough to reason it out he/she would start a business instead ( to survive ) and be driving to work during the morning rush hour.

The lion needs to follow instinct.We don't. That's not evil it's survival of the fittest.

If we really want to be the top dog on this planet we must learn to live up to the responsibility of the position. We have the big brains to use as a tool ( instead of claws and fangs ) we just need to use them in a mature responsible way. The old : " Do unto others as you would have done unto yourself " is a good place to start.

Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination

I think the Christian God, as many Christians interpret him, is evil. He demands that you worship him and if you don't, he tortures you. If you're one of his people you're rewarded, but if you're not you're tortured. How is that different from Saddam or Stalin or Hitler? *

I'd also say that believing God does this, but still choosing to worship him, is evil.

(edit: why does my iPad put random asterisks in my posts? Now that really is evil.)

I think the Christian God, as many Christians interpret him, is evil. He demands that you worship him and if you don't, he tortures you. If you're one of his people you're rewarded, but if you're not you're tortured. How is that different from Saddam or Stalin or Hitler? *

I'd also say that believing God does this, but still choosing to worship him, is evil.

Ok, but what IS it?

I don't mean examples of it, I mean a definition like evil=selfishness or evil=rebellion against God or whatever you think it is.

Maybe there is no such thing? Maybe it is conditioned by society.

I remember reading once - can't remember where though, maybe you know - a book about an anthropologist's research into head-hunting tribes in Borneo.

Their tradition was that when you wanted to marry a girl and had a rival, the rivals would fight it out and the winner would present the shrunken head of the loser to the father of the bride.

He found that when they were prevented from carrying out this practice - as they were by Missionaries and other civilizers - they felt emotions that were indistinguishable from guilt, remorse and conscience.

In short, when prevented from head-hunting, they felt what WE would feel if we did the head-hunting (some of us).... yet we would call the practice 'evil'.

It's a deeper issue than first appears.

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad

I'm not a literalist with regard to the creation story. However looking at cosmology, our present rules and constants clearly breakdown when the Big Bang is in the midst of... banging into existence. Since time is a function of space, when space is expanding into existence from a singularity, so is time. One does not function without the other.

Go read your relativity.

Your very simplistic understanding of the universe does not help your case that there is an anthropomorphic deity who somehow knows everything but doesn't know everything and created everything but didn't create everything (just, you know, pick whichever is convenient for each given argument, duh).

I am very familiar with relativity, thank you very much. I wish you would stop trying to use science to justify something which is the exact opposite of scientific.

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” -Sagan

I don't mean examples of it, I mean a definition like evil=selfishness or evil=rebellion against God or whatever you think it is.

Maybe there is no such thing? Maybe it is conditioned by society.

I remember reading once - can't remember where though, maybe you know - a book about an anthropologist's research into head-hunting tribes in Borneo.

Their tradition was that when you wanted to marry a girl and had a rival, the rivals would fight it out and the winner would present the shrunken head of the loser to the father of the bride.

He found that when they were prevented from carrying out this practice - as they were by Missionaries and other civilizers - they felt emotions that were indistinguishable from guilt, remorse and conscience.

In short, when prevented from head-hunting, they felt what WE would feel if we did the head-hunting (some of us).... yet we would call the practice 'evil'.

It's a deeper issue than first appears.

I feel like you just very blatantly dodged BRussell's question here. Is it not something that would be almost universally considered evil if one tells his people "love me or I will torture you"?

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” -Sagan

Your very simplistic understanding of the universe does not help your case that there is an anthropomorphic deity who somehow knows everything but doesn't know everything and created everything but didn't create everything (just, you know, pick whichever is convenient for each given argument, duh).

I am very familiar with relativity, thank you very much. I wish you would stop trying to use science to justify something which is the exact opposite of scientific.

Why does God have to be anthropomorphic? Would you lend more credence to a God not of such a characteristic? Or would it be the same to you?

Regarding relativity and physics, I have a question:

As quantum mechanics runs counter to the rationality of the classical world, does this mean that all we know - nature if you like - is ultimately irrational? Could it be that our concept of what we think is rational is not actually true? Are we, in fact, the irrational instead?

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad