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Websleuths News

Join Websleuths Radio for the final discussion of THE KILLING SEASON
with Josh Zemam, Rachel Mills and special guests including Bob Kolker author of Lost Girls

Well the dogs better have found Kyron's scent in the parking lot between school and place Terri parked, because that is how he arrived there that day. My guess is that even if the dogs hit on a scent between the school and the place Terri parked, it could as easily have been the path he took to go in as the one he took to come back out. His scent should also have been all over the school, the playground, possibly the soccer field and probably close to several entrance/exit doors as well - the ones he took to recess, the one they exited to get out to the school bus or come in from the school bus if it was a different door than the one you'd come in if your mom drove you... .etc.

BBM

Respectfully, a well trained dog might not pick up Kyron's scent in the parking lot, even though it is known he was there.

Parking lots are actually poor places for scent because there is usually no vegetation to hold the scent and if there are lots of vehicles, particularly passenger cars, in and out, they can cook the scent beyond recognition. Exhaust fumes can also temporarily suppress a dog's sense of smell.

Eight plus hours after the fact, in a parking lot known to have been busy that day, I would not expect a well trained dog to find any scent.

I would actually be suspicious that if a trailing dog indicated in the parking lot that it might be a case of the handler inadvertently cueing the dog rather than the dog actually independently finding scent.

I would also be surprised if a dog hit on scent in the school hallways. Linoleum is a terrible surface for scent and there were lots of people walking up and down those halls. Plus, if the halls had been mopped, most sanitizers kill off scent very efficiently.

Kyron wasn't reported missing for a significant length of time after the students left for the day. I'd think that period right after the kids leave is when much of the custodial work is done.

Yes, good point. I agree most people would assume an angry screaming child being marched out of a public place with an adult was a misbehaving child being removed for disciplinary reasons -- and at least 999 times out of a thousand, they're going to be right. Something has to be really out of the ordinary before people notice it.

Considering the incidence of stranger abductions from public places, the odds are literally millions to one that a screaming child is being abducted versus about to have a time-out.

I disagree about the difference gender might play. A man who was appropriately dressed and gave off the right body language would be assumed to be an involved father.

It takes a LOT of weirdness to arouse suspicion.

For instance, Brian Mitchell was far from normal in appearance--he had that long scraggly beard, he wore robes and was often singing or ranting to himself in public. You'd think there was no way anyone would not notice him and yet, there it was. For nine months, he and Wanda Barzee hid Elizabeth Smart in plain sight.

Yes, the presence of Wanda Barzee may have made a difference but there were times when Mitchell left her behind and took Smart with him and no one really suspected.

Respectfully, a well trained dog might not pick up Kyron's scent in the parking lot, even though it is known he was there.

Parking lots are actually poor places for scent because there is usually no vegetation to hold the scent and if there are lots of vehicles, particularly passenger cars, in and out, they can cook the scent beyond recognition. Exhaust fumes can also temporarily suppress a dog's sense of smell.

Eight plus hours after the fact, in a parking lot known to have been busy that day, I would not expect a well trained dog to find any scent.

I would actually be suspicious that if a trailing dog indicated in the parking lot that it might be a case of the handler inadvertently cueing the dog rather than the dog actually independently finding scent.

I would also be surprised if a dog hit on scent in the school hallways. Linoleum is a terrible surface for scent and there were lots of people walking up and down those halls. Plus, if the halls had been mopped, most sanitizers kill off scent very efficiently.

Kyron wasn't reported missing for a significant length of time after the students left for the day. I'd think that period right after the kids leave is when much of the custodial work is done.

Okay, cool. I thought they brought dogs in to search the day Kyron was abducted.

The person who tried to grab the victim was described as a white male in his 30's-40's, medium build, light colored hair, a 2" or longer goatee, dark clothing, and possibly hazel eyes.

The playground attempt:

The suspect is described as a white male in his 30s, about 5-foot-8 and 130 to 150 pounds with a slight build. He had short light-colored hair and a goatee.

Oh my gosh that's so terrifying! How many sick people are after children right now? I'm so scared for these kids! I'm scared for my own child and can't help but put her face on so many of these attempted abductions, it just makes me sick.

My daughter (in third grade) stayed for an after-school program on the days that I worked. It was understood that once there, she could only leave with a parent or person on the (very short) list & a note saying X person (from the list) would be picking her up that day.

One day I showed up to pick her up - she was not there, yet she was signed in and not signed out. One of the attendants thought the last time she had seen her was when her school buddy was picked up by her father, over an hour earlier. This was not a friend of mine, nor someone I would have allowed her to leave with...

No one saw a thing, including the school secretary whose office (window and open door) they walked by when leaving the school. This was a fairly quiet time of day, but before most staff would have gone home.

Long story short, I found her at the friends house, yes; dad took her too and admitted he didn't sign her out because he knew she wasn't allowed to leave with him. (WTH? - I know)

Had the one attendant (out of 5 or so on duty) not noticed that she didn't see my daughter again after her friend left, I would have had no idea where to start looking.

**************

What if Terri had him come out to the car for something - then drove off before making sure Kyron was safely back near the drop off point, at the school - (out of he parking lot)?

What if Kyron followed Terri without her knowledge (or with her ignoring him) and she drove off, leaving him standing there?

What if Terri prearranged to have someone in the parking lot, abduct Kyron?

Yes, it is possible this was a stranger abduction; do I believe it was? No.

Thank you my WS family for everything you do, everyday. You are loved and appreciated.

Yes, the presence of Wanda Barzee may have made a difference but there were times when Mitchell left her behind and took Smart with him and no one really suspected.

Smart wore a veil, and after being recognized by LE in the library had to cover her eyes too - She could have been a teen ager or a 60 year old woman. Hiding in plain sight but well disguised.

Originally Posted by carbuff

Yes, good point. I agree most people would assume an angry screaming child being marched out of a public place with an adult was a misbehaving child being removed for disciplinary reasons -- and at least 999 times out of a thousand, they're going to be right. Something has to be really out of the ordinary before people notice it.

BBM - an angry, screaming child, at least should have rang some bells - caused someone to say "Hey! I saw something!" after the fact. Drawn some attention to what the adult looked like, even if s/he appeared to fit in at the time. KWIM?

Thank you my WS family for everything you do, everyday. You are loved and appreciated.

<respectfully snipped>
an angry, screaming child, at least should have rang some bells - caused someone to say "Hey! I saw something!" after the fact. Drawn some attention to what the adult looked like, even if s/he appeared to fit in at the time. KWIM?

You would hope so, but it didn't appear to be the case. People are just so absorbed in themselves.

Opinions expressed are strictly my own (who else would they belong to???)

If it was a stranger abduction I think we probably don't have the whole story about when Kyron was last seen. If Terri is telling the truth that she left Kyron in the hallway a short distance from his classroom it seems unlikely to me that a suitably placed perp would happen to be there and able to grab him unnoticed within the window of a few seconds that it would have taken Kyron to walk to his classroom. I wonder if Terri saw any other people in that hallway who could have been the perp or who could have witnessed it. It's not impossible but it seems improbable to me, the perp got extremely lucky. I suppose Terri could have taken the photo and left almost straight away to go shopping at the FM but was embarrassed or afraid to admit that she left Kyron to his own devices. It might explain some of the behavior that was taken as a sign of guilt.

It might have been easier for a complete stranger or an acquaintance grooming Kyron to find opportunities to grab him later when the group was touring the fair (easy enough for one child to wander from the group or stay a few feet behind) but in that case the story about Terri being the last adult to see Kyron would appear to be false since if Kyron got to his classroom and started the tour he would have been seen by others.

Okay, cool. I thought they brought dogs in to search the day Kyron was abducted.

They did--police K9s.

But it was still more than eight hours after Kyron was last seen in an environment with hordes of people moving around. The parking lot and the halls would not be good environments for trailing one specific person's scent.

My best guess is that the first dogs on the scene were used to make sure that Kyron was not inside the school or on the grounds nearby. Rather than being trained to take Kyron's scent and alert only on Kyron, these would be dogs that were trained to alert on any living human being. They'd do a search by confining everyone in the building to one single area and then checking all the other areas.

Later that evening, as they managed to get in contact with SAR personnel, they'd bring in dogs trained to take one specific person's scent and indicate only on that scent. Unfortunately, time is not on the side of scentwork (these are often called trailing dogs).

http://southeastportland.katu.com/co...uction-attempt
PORTLAND, Ore. - Police are on the lookout for a green van they believe was involved in the attempted abduction of an 8-year-old boy.
According to police, someone in a van allegedly tried to grab a young boy while he was walking near the intersection of Southeast Gladstone Street and Gladstone Drive, which is near Southeast 151st at the base of Powell Butte.

Hmmmm.Have you read the comments on this article?They are interesting.I don't know what to think.I guess he could have taken his ski mask off.

Wow if that were at my school, heads would have rolled!! We are in an inner city and a big school (K-4) 5 of each grade everything is by the book. A busy school and we all know the rules!!!!

I'm glad to know some schools play by the rules - they knew them too and were very relieved to find out she was OK, but to my knowledge - no one was disciplined. I think that day I was just so relieved that someone knew something and that she was OK that I probably didn't make as big a stink as I should have.

Originally Posted by carbuff

You would hope so, but it didn't appear to be the case. People are just so absorbed in themselves.

I make a point to look at people who have a screaming child - if the adult is behaving appropriately I give them an understanding smile - If the adult is not acting like an adult, I have a tendency to acknowledge that too - no smile included.

I hope if I ever witness a crime (unknowingly at the time) something will click when it needs to.

Last edited by LCoastMom; 12-04-2010 at 09:16 PM.

Thank you my WS family for everything you do, everyday. You are loved and appreciated.

They must look at all potential theories: They suspect Kyron's stepmother's involvement, but did she pass the boy off to someone? Could the boy have been taken along the I-5 corridor and out of the country? They also must identify and interview child predators and sex offenders living in the area.

"They're a lot further along," Staton said. "They started out with a long laundry list....They've gradually been able to eliminate people, who they can say are absolutely not involved. This investigation has narrowed it down significantly."

Six months later, this sounds to me like they are still in the process of interviewing and clearing known SO's in the area. I thought they'd completed that long ago by the intense focus being put on TH, but I'm taking this as not. All the more reason for us to keep our eyes open to stranger abduction as well. IMO