I'm not sure quite what keeping birds has to do with UFO's or am I missing something here?

Let me put it another way, if you want totally unsubstantiated stories from within the intelligence services about UFOs, most researchers could scare
people from sleeping for days with what they have been told by people "off the record". In fact, I can think of several, in the field who have
broken those confidences and their careers have gone "down hill" the moment they did, either because they are essentially , in it totally for what
they can "screw out of it" or they were deliberately led , by the nose willingly, to make a total fool of themselves over an incident that was
wholly manufactured.

I am sure there were some black ops around UFOs only when you ask name them.... they can't and they can't even give you one single decent report
that they can say.. "Oh, that was actually the U2".

There's a document in the CIA record stating that , blowing up a load of students in Florida and blaming it on Castro would be a great way to excuse
an invasion of Cuba, a certain G Bush was part of the committee that was responsible for it. Are you telling me they'd actually do it?

There's a paper in the British files, where a scientist genuinely thought that shipping Marmite to the Middle east would help calm things down over
there as the chemicals in it contain something that has a "calming effect".

Remote viewing? Yup.... in other words you name it and it can be as barking mad as you like, the CIA or the KGB or MOSSAD or MI6 thought about it ,
did a report on it.

What I often think of now is what will CIA and the USAF use as a cover for top secret advanced aircraft? They knowingly and willfully used the UFO
phenomena as a cover for advanced black op aircraft. What are they going to use now as a cover? Or, they might just figure the gig is up, we know
they're working on high tech black op aircraft and say to hell with the cover. The big bad Soviets are dead so no need to play cat and mouse with
them anymore, right?

Judging from some of the response here so far, it doesn't appear that the jig is up!

But I have to say that since the wall fell, the U.S. doesn't seem quite as hush-hush about our war technology as they used to be.

Some of the hints, however, seem to suggest that technological secrets might not be their only use of the phenomenon psychologically.

That aspect certainly gets into murkier waters, but the MK projects & other social programming aspects have been linked, purportedly, to the ufo
memetic before. From the early contactees to cases such as Villas Boas.

If true, what could their purpose be?

The Villas Boas case is one said to be instigated by a CIA/military psy-operation, according to DoD/CIA operative Bosco Nedelcovic, who told me
the story in the late 1970s. Nick Redfern covers the account in his book Contactees [Chapter 20].

Nedelcovic presented a scenario that’s hard to accept by some but readily accepted by those who’ve studied the machinations of the CIA and
military, the so-called psychological operations.

Villas Boas was, Nedelcovic said, collected by a special unit whose purpose was to create simulated alien contact. The unit operated in South America,
with the help of A.I.D. and also in Great Britain, where Nedelcovic said they were part of the infamous Scoriton contact with a man named Bryant.

"Other parts of the story also ring true. At the time of the incident the CIA and the US military were firmly established in Brazil, and all over
Latin America, keeping close tabs on political developments in the region. Brazil was considered a particularly sensitive nation; its vast size,
considerable natural resources and proximity to the US made it a ripe target for Soviet expansion. Things would come to a head in 1964 when the CIA
participated in a coup to oust President Joao Goulart, replacing him with a brutal military junta that held power for the next two decades.

"In 1957 the CIA was also deeply involved in its MK-ULTRA programme, researching mind and behaviour-altering techniques involving drugs, surgery and
technology. They experimented with a number of psychoactive substances -hallucinogens, sedatives, stimulants, psychomimetics and more -often so
entirely unwitting subjects. Would the CIA have conducted some tests on subjects outside of their own jurisdiction? Certainly. For the CIA at this
time, the entire world was within its jurisdiction.

"Villas Boas was repeatedly sick during and after his experience, and also suffered unpleasant physiological effects that Fontes took to be related to
radiation exposure. Might the strange 'cubicle' described by Nedelcovic have been used to illicitly test the effects of radiation exposure?Although
Nedelcovic doesn't mention what they wore for the helicopter flights, Villas Boas's description of the entities' clothing and helmets could be
conceived of as radiation-protection gear."

It's important for any serious researcher or student of ufology to understand, REALLY understand, that the Intelligence Agencies have played us for
fools at times. Sometimes, ahem, in the interest of National Security and even, it seems, sometimes for fun.

First, let's look at national security purposes:

According to later estimates from CIA officials who worked on the U-2 project and the OXCART (SR-71, or Blackbird) project, over half of all UFO
reports from the late 1950s through the 1960s were accounted for by manned reconnaissance flights (namely the U-2) over the United States. (45) This
led the Air Force to make misleading and deceptive statements to the public in order to allay public fears and to protect an extraordinarily sensitive
national security project. While perhaps justified, this deception added fuel to the later conspiracy theories and the coverup controversy of the
1970s. The percentage of what the Air Force considered unexplained UFO sightings fell to 5.9 percent in 1955 and to 4 percent in 1956. (46)

Hey The Gut, interesting thread mate and I'm sure you're right about those pesky spooks attempting to play people for fools, especially when it
comes to the subject of unidentified flying objects (maybe unidentified submerged objects as well).

Found this relevant rebuttal to the spy planes report at the Coalition for Freedom of Information website and thought it made a few good points -
there are also several CIA documents in the public domain which don't exactly follow the U.S. Government's official line on UFOs (or shouldn't
really exist at all if we're to beleive the contents of the USAF factsheet).

1997--The CIA and Spy Planes

In a report published at about the same time as the Air Force's "crash dummy" revelation, the Central Intelligence Agency tried to write off
thousands of UFO reports as mistaken observations of secret spy planes. It ended up writing fiction.

The first demonstrably incorrect statement was that there had been a major increase in UFO reports immediately following the first test flight of the
prototype U-2 spy plane in August 1955. A simple count of cases in the files of Project Blue Book (which the CIA admits it used) shows that there had
actually been a major decrease.

Then the CIA claimed that half of almost 9,000 UFO sightings made between mid-1955 and late1969 had been mistaken observations of U-2 and later SR-71
spy planes. Since those airplanes cruise too high to be seen from the ground (at more than 70,000 feet), this could not be the case. Moreover, one of
the hallmarks of UFO descriptions in that period was their spectacular maneuvers, including right-angle turns at high speed. Both the U-2 and the
SR-71 are among the least maneuverable airplanes used by the U.S. military.

Thirdly, the CIA claimed it had conspired with the staff of the Air Force's Project Blue Book to conceal the alleged sightings of spy planes by
having them falsely labeled as obscure types of atmospheric phenomena. Had this been the case, several thousand UFO reports for 1955 - 1969 in the
permanent files of Project Blue Book would be blamed on ice crystals, temperature inversions, and so on. But the actual total is barely three
dozen.

Here's one sent to the Director of Central Intelligence by the Assistant Director Scientific Intelligence just one year before their inception of the
Robertson panel which talks about UFOs and how they're convinced that there's something going on which needs immediate attention.

"At this time the reports of incidents convince us that there is something going on that must have immediate attention. The details of some of
these incidents have been discussed by AD/SI (SI: Scientific Intelligence) with DDCI. Sightings of unexplained objects at great altitudes and
travelling at high speeds in the vicinity of major U.S. defense installations are of such nature that they are not attributable to natural phenomenon
or known types of aerial vehicles."

You are wrong some things , especially if you are saying that to defend that beings are interdimensional which is now a total Myth and fairy tales
because the proof of other dimensions isn't just less than the proof of UFOs and possibly other beings, it is actually none. If the whole reason you
are posting this is to defend your INTERDEMNSIONAL beliefs, stop right now.

What you are wrong about is: To think that some UFOs are not unknown aircraft even saucers, there are such, not a myth and they are 3D, not 4D not
7D.... A lot of UFO cases are not a myth but reality and not natural phenomenon.

Otherwise it is true that lots of the stories by CIA are fabricated to make fun or for national security.

The exact number of flying saucer sightings caused by U-2s is unknown. Many years later, Cunningham made an off-the-cuff comment: "Hell, they
were half of them." This referred to the reports that Blue Book sent to the project staff as possible U-2 sightings rather than the more than 13000
total sightings reported.
Page 102

Originally posted by FireMoon
I'm not sure quite what keeping birds has to do with UFO's or am I missing something here?

Saucerwench was referring to an informal group of government, military and intelligence people interested in UFOs. Bill Moore and Jamie Shandera got
in contact with them in the 80s and gave them bird names in order to talk about them publicly and on the phone. Allegedly that group included people
like Hal Puthoff, Ron Pandolfi, Kit Green, John Alexander, and others.

My opinion, however, and contrary to what Saucerwench seems to be implying, is that this was just a group of like-minded individuals working in
government trying to find out more about the UFO subject for themselves, rather than an official working group working to cover-up the subject or
disinform the public.

Thank you for the clarification, one learns summat new every day not heard them called that before although heard of the programme they reportedly
worked on.

As for the U2, please, come on folks, which airframe in the 1950s early 60s looks weirder and more "alien", the U2 with its classic aircraft shape
or the Vulcan V bomber? Where's the MOD files saying how , loads of sightings can be put down to people mistaking the Vulcan for a UFO? I would
imagine some did mistake it for one however, the MOD files, as far as I can tell, don't have one instance of a reported UFO where this was the case.

The U2 has a whole mythos that has grown up around it, in part , I suspect to deflect the fact that , it wasn't actually very special and in reality
was actually an incredibly expensive "low tech" solution to a high tech problem as can be seen by the Russians launching the first satellite in 1957
and making the U2, in effect, obsolete over night.

That's not to say the U2 didn't provide a sterling service it did some great work however, that has to be set against the fact proven fact that the
CIA used it's reconnaissance data to flat out lie to successive Presidents about the level of the Warsaw Pact's military strength. What was it,? Oh
yes, the CIA claimed the Russians had a fleet of 200+ jet powered nuclear bombers, come 1990 it was revealed they had 22, of which, at any one time,
20% were undergoing repair or maintenance and unavailable for service.

The truth is, the CIA spent billions upon billions of American tax payer dollars for not a lot of return when you add it all up. We are still paying
for their legacy, in the mid 1980s all military intelligence agreed that, the Russians were only weeks away from the wholesale destruction of the
Taliban military commanders as any sort of effective force so the CIA did what? They gave them stinger missiles, his despite the known fact that the
Russians had informed the CIA and the USA that they were invading Afghanistan to stop the spread of radical Islam into Russian territory I'm sure we
are all so damn pleased the CIA gave them those missiles now, I mean, that decision hasn't cost anything has it? .

There's an old joke in intelligence circles that, CIA actually stands for. "Cover its' own ass" and this whole spiel on UFOs looks like yet
another piece of revisionist history by an organisation that was involved in a whole series of short term decisions that led to long term spectacular
fails.

There are links in my opening post to verifiable government documents that state, among other pertinent issues, that the ufo field has great potential
for psychological warfare purposes. How clear can that be? You don't think that the intel agencies would milk it for every conceivable aspect they
can come up with?

I doubt that they would not.

In truth, I doubt with the greatest emphasis that you or few others would have much of a clue of the scope and breadth.

It's an honor to have you here, karl12, but that was written by Don Berliner and he doesn't really back it up as much as basically states his
opinion.

When you start using Berliner to make a point, the ufo ball becomes a sticky wicket as he has backed a lot of bad ponies over the years. He's either
too gullible to be trusted...or something else is going on. Let's look at that.

Berliner is associated with FUFOR (Fund For UFO Research) which is suspect in itself because of it's relationship to Bruce Maccabee and his
involvement and reporting to the CIA.

...FUFOR has since played a major role in the dissemination of key aspects of the Contact Scenario. For example, it gave Stanton Friedman a grant of
$16,000 to authenticate the MJ-12 documents. When these false documents were released in 1987, Maccabee was their greatest supporter...

...Both by his position and his reputation, Maccabee was an influential figure in UFO research, and his support for several sensational - but
controversial - cases has led to their general acceptance by other researchers who, in turn, have promoted them to the public. As such, the UFO myth
became firmly embedded within society.

Furthermore, his rise to prominence was due to his claim that he had evidence that the CIA were withholding thousands of files relating to UFOs – a
claim that has greatly encouraged the belief in a cover-up and, by extension, that there is something to be covered up.

But while supporting many of the more sensational UFO cases, Maccabee has also used his influence to down-play evidence that supports a more
conventional explanation of the UFO phenomenon. For example, when the declassified CIA documents relating to the use of UFOs as a cover for spy plane
sightings were released in 1997, he argued vociferously – and successfully – that these were of no significance.

Most importantly, Maccabee worked closely with William Moore, for example on investigating an alleged UFO landing near Kirtland AFB in 1980 – using
information supplied by Sergeant Richard Doty – the government’s UFO disinformation agent par excellence. Moore later admitted he had spread
disinformation on behalf of the government, promoting the UFO myth.

The intelligence octopus is wrapped all around and up and down the ufo enigma. They often seem to be promoting certain memes more so than trying to
squash any ufo beliefs and make us think they don't exist.

What is their purpose if that's the case?

Something stinks and just about the whole ufo community prefers to clothes-clip their noses rather than find out.

Originally posted by Quaesitor
Allegedly that group included people like Hal Puthoff, Ron Pandolfi, Kit Green, John Alexander, and others.

My opinion, however, and contrary to what Saucerwench seems to be implying, is that this was just a group of like-minded individuals working in
government trying to find out more about the UFO subject for themselves, rather than an official working group working to cover-up the subject or
disinform the public.

No official cover-up with that group, I agree. Well, not the straight-forward kind anyway. The
strange loop concept
definitely comes to mind when I contemplate those fellas.

Originally posted by The GUT
No official cover-up with that group, I agree. Well, not the straight-forward kind anyway. The strange loop concept definitely comes to mind when I
contemplate those fellas.

Pandolfi, Puthoff, and Green = CIA.

This is just my opinion of course, but I think a lot of people make the mistake of assuming that if someone is intelligence or military and interested
in UFOs then they know the "truth" and are covering it up. I actually think those people, Puthoff, Kit Green, and others, while probably knowing more
about it than us in the public arena, didn't know the "truth" and were (or are) trying to find it through their own means.

On the question of whether the CIA, and other agencies, used the UFO phenomenon to their advantage, as your thread suggests, I don't think that's even
a question at all.

But I want to stress this point: simply due to the nature and complexity of the (intelligence) game, someone working for, let's say CIA, like Kit
Green, might not even necessarily know what was fabricated by the Agency and what was real.

And this is assuming there's even someone who knows, or some place where the "truth" is documented, in government, for them or others to find out.

The first thing I'll say is that many components of UFOlogy start before the founding of the CIA in September 1947 (significant year). Prior to that
was the Office of Strategic Services (OSS), but I don't think the OSS had the same mandate, level of sophistication or broad definition of intent as
the CIA.

I think that another thing is that the CIA handlers were applying known behaviorist theory (read up on B. F, Skinner & Ivan Pavlov's work for
background on this; where the withholding of a programmed stimulus actually reinforces the training) and also giving us some "debunk-able" cases to
make the manufactured cases appear more solid.

This then led to "me too" copycat cases (often unverifiable) and muddied the UFO waters totally.

They may also have been doing the same thing with other "strange tales" too, topics which they were incubating with a view to later manipulating
public opinion (Philadelphia Experiment, Red Mercury & etc), if required.

The real issue may have been that the CIA did such a magnificent snow job that, with the compartmentalization of information, even they could not tell
the truth from the fiction anymore.

It's a little conspicuous and seems like some people are trying waaaayyy too hard to convince some people, possibly even themselves of something that
is anything but true, as if dumping as much information as fast as possible onto someone will 'save' them, like some warped right of baptismal
submersion.

Anyway, you guys have fun. We're all entitled to our beliefs and opinions, even when we disagree. I'll stop back in after another six or seven pages
of hysterical wide eyed believing as hard and as loud as you can.

Originally posted by The GUT
What is their purpose if that's the case?

Something stinks and just about the whole ufo community prefers to clothes-clip their noses rather than find out.

Speaking from personal experiences, I think I agree. Something stinks. Maybe they've(TPTB) just been 'uber' practising with their MANY
different toys and that's how the UFO scenario got so complicated. If that's true, then they sure have a great collection. I'm not talking about
a UFO collection, I'm talking about all the ways they communicate an "alien" visitation and all it's frills on a person or people. I would
include suggestion, mind-reading or control, (or both) as well as all the other magic tricks they appear to do.

But maybe the chaos amongst UFO lore isn't all accidental. Maybe it's deliberate. But what for? Just to make us think the "aliens" are real.

Originally posted by Saucerwench
Thank you so much, Gut, for this excellent thread. You are such an exceptional assett to ATS. Man, I hope this thread doesn't die
out-of-sight-out-of-mind really quick, but I'll bet ya all my money, it will.

I brought up awhile back, the facts of Betty and Barney Hill's 'friends' being involved with CIA psychological warfare, Air Force intelligence, and
the JFK assassination.

I have pondered my own bad treatment of me and my military case, by Ufo people over the years, and some who I have known to be CIA themselves.

Yes, it took me some ten years to figure out if what I and my boyfriend saw that night was legit or not. Come to find out it was not. ... Thank God I
can move on now.. Check out this lovely run down ...

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