Oh, but it is so very different Piro... fantasy as opposed to reality. (Rather ironic a statement considering I am referring to characters in a webcomic.)
Nice to see Sera again. And she went big mode to help nudge Piro into making the right choice, which he might feel is wrong, but he is a piss poor judge if left to his on devices. I am very happy that Piro has decided take Kimiko up on her invitation to build a bridge toward happiness for the both of them.

Just to throw an alternate scenario out there, since Seraphim showed up in sexy short negligee. Plus, I am feeling a Thru the Looking Glass vibe with her toking on a "chasing the dragon" style pipe... What if Piro joined Sera on that bed after dropping trou'? What sight would greet Kimiko's eye when she stepped back into the room a towel around her head and another cinched tightly to her lithe body?
I think she would be disappointed as she looked to him on the bed, but that might turn right around when she sees a masturbating gaijin... or she could feel a war of shock and gross out making her disappointment very bitter indeed.

edit: Dang! That was a skinny lady cigarette. I hallucinated a long stemmed Japanese pipe with that tiny bowl at the end. The way the smoke floats and curls around Piro in the middle panels made me think pipe smoke.

Last edited by Teddy-Werebear on Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Well Seraphim seems to be back, being rather unhelpful at best. Also, I thought she had stopped smoking?
Ouch! Look at Piro's back> I suppose he might need some help getting the shards picked out and cleaned. I'm surprised it didn't bleed through to his shirt much.
Yes, Kimiko has given Piro an choice. Let go of Miho, and attempt for whatever relationship there was left, or move on and so that he could have an relationship with Kimiko perhaps. Either way something is going to get burned in the midst.

~shadowrider (Who hopes there is some first aid around somewhere.)

Archived:Owner of a "Welcome to SC" plushie with a "I joined O's Army" pin attached,
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...huh. Well, I’m disappointed, but I’m sure longtime fans of Piro/Kimiko are screaming in joy, so that’s a positive. Maybe the majority had it right all along.

We never see Piro’s eyes after he starts stripping down, which usually means some kind of unhappy emotion, but shouldn’t he be happy about finally having made a choice? Especially since it’s the easy, obvious choice that works out best for everyone. He knows where he stands with Kimiko. They’ll have a stable relationship and work together at Lockart to bring Kotone to life. Largo and Erika will certainly approve. Seraphim seems pleased.

Miho, well, her story’s paused for now, so at least she doesn’t have to die anytime soon. She’ll be okay once she gets back to the Cave of Evil. It’s her fault that she pushed Piro away in the first place, anyway.

Is this where we move forward to all kitsune all the time, now that everything’s settled?

...

Bleh. I hate this pairing. It feels wrong and it’s only going to cause more angst down the road. Can we have a scene change back to anywhere else now?

Panel1: upper bodies of Kimiko and Piro, in the shower, maybe Piro tries to reach for her arm, she has her normal hair again, looks around.

Panel 2: she turns around, they reach their heads to kiss but arms apart.

Panel 3: they still kiss but he holds her arms away from her back.

Panel 4 with some subpanels maybe, her face surprised, his upper body dirty, battered and blooded up but smile on his face, then her doing this ^^ expression, accompanied by a dialogue to effect of, hey it hurts, oh right sorry I forgot myself, let's clean you up.
(Slightly similar sequence as when they reconcile after Anna Miller's train disaster)

That, or first he approaches the shower with curtain on, she reaches out and pulls him in, we hear some yelling and apologies,(water may still be cold there) but actually cold water soothes wounds after first shock so maybe he'll be glad she did that after all.

On another plane, you know, @NinjaDefenestrator, they are now boldly going into 'you find happiness where you can' territory, she still did not tell him he got the job at Lockart, and they both know what will happen when he gets it - he's going to fly away after a while... But she's going to see him at work a lot which may or may not bode well for their relationship.

[EDITed a paradox out here, TLI or running into a plot loop.]

Last edited by cidjen on Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:12 am, edited 3 times in total.

Ouch! Look at Piro's back> I suppose he might need some help getting the shards picked out and cleaned. I'm surprised it didn't bleed through to his shirt much.
Yes, Kimiko has given Piro an choice. Let go of Miho, and attempt for whatever relationship there was left, or move on and so that he could have an relationship with Kimiko perhaps. Either way something is going to get burned in the midst.

~shadowrider (Who hopes there is some first aid around somewhere.)

Piro (to Kimiko): I don't know about you and your body, but I think i could use some help cleaning that glass from mine.

There are a good many parallels between Arthur Dent and Piro, really. Most notably the insistence by their creators that they must suffer horribly.

Urkkk... there goes 'the surprise soda' up my nose... Rings a bell with what Miho said back in the apartment - people only like [my story] because I suffer miserably and die - and in the entire comic we have seen Piro suffer a lot already, physically and emotionally... (I guess I got the surprise because I did not read HGTTG ...)

So Miho would be a parallel to Piro actually then. In the suffering. Only her story has no beginning, only end, and his is ... just beginning ?
As a parallel, they ... can't actually ever meet/cross, they will always be apart ?...

Bleh. I hate this pairing. It feels wrong and it’s only going to cause more angst down the road. Can we have a scene change back to anywhere else now?

Why does it have to be a pairing? Why can't it just be adults doing adult things?

--------------------'The secret of lesbian porn is the self-insertion fantasy, the feeling of "You know, the right dick could turn those clam-licking hotties into hot wet sex fiends... and I am that brave dick." Keep that in mind' - Dom

My impression is that he's not too pleased with his conscience doing little more here than restating the bleeding obvious.

Nah, Seraphim has been on him about dropping the fantasy world stuff and dealing with the real world since she first appeared. I think this last panel is Piro saying loving Miho in the online (fantasy) world wasn't any different than (or inferior to) loving a real-world girl like Kimiko. In some ways, this a universal thing. Love isn't just making rational decisions about who the right (or optimal) person to love is. It's a heart thing, not a brain thing, and that works for online love just as well. This is the kind of thing where sometimes you need to ignore your conscience (even if she's in big mode) and do what you feel.

...huh. Well, I’m disappointed, but I’m sure longtime fans of Piro/Kimiko are screaming in joy, so that’s a positive. Maybe the majority had it right all along.

Buh? I had thought the opposite position -- Piro loves Miho, and Kimiko supports this (what you called "paarfi's camp" in the 1511 thread) -- was the majority position, and by a rather large margin? Selection bias on both our parts maybe? ("Geeze look at all these smart people disagreeing with me, it sucks to be in the minority like this" <- at least that's how it's been for me )

Bleh. I hate this pairing.

Aww Guess that smile (panel 2) I've referred to so many times (think I've linked that in my forum posts over the years more than any other MT strip) had more of an effect on me than on most people. Ah well.

Last edited by darrin on Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Nah, Seraphim has been on him about dropping the fantasy world stuff and dealing with the real world since she first appeared. I think this last panel is Piro saying loving Miho in the online (fantasy) world wasn't any different than (or inferior to) loving a real-world girl like Kimiko.

Hmm, i wonder...

S: At least we are talking about [snogging] real girls now not characters in a [game]
P: Don't tell me it's any different.

S. talks about the snogging and how it makes Piro feel. Whether what he felt when being snogged, was what he would feel for Miho or for Kimiko. 'Don't tell me it's any different' whether I felt this for either one of them? or 'Don't tell me it's any different' if Miho actually was real, as real as Kimiko seems to be now ?

Simulation games provide players with environment to experience something they would have difficulty, or impossible, to do it for real, but with similar emotional outcome as if the player did the thing for real. He is supposed to get same or similar emotions from winning for real, as he would from winning in a game; that's the 'game contract' so to say;

So he's annoyed at Seraphim, for trying to breach that... He knows it's not a game but he also knows, what 'winning' means and how it feels, and ... dare I say, he wants to feel that?

In some ways, this a universal thing. Love isn't just making rational decisions about who the right (or optimal) person to love is. It's a heart thing, not a brain thing, and that works for online love just as well. This is the kind of thing where sometimes you need to ignore your conscience (even if she's in big mode) and do what you feel.

True dat

[edited to add after @darrin's post] [and then edited again]
There is no question, that Piro did love Miho.... back then. Some lingering still occurs (I'd dare say, he had nobody like that, real or virtual, since). But when they met for real, Miho did not try to get him back, to heal his emotional wounds. Kimiko did - so it's sorta natural he feels it more for Kimiko now. Risking quoting, he's not the protagonist here ....! Kimiko is. _In_ her game, she is winning it... by helping it look like he is winning.

And you'll never hear me say you should. It's the folks who are 100% sure they're right (and that the rest of us are idjits) that I'm suspicious of, certainly wouldn't wanna be one myself. I've been about 80-85% sure of the opposite position based on the stuff I went on about the past couple of threads; 1512 didn't really shift that too much cuz, well, Piro is Piro. (I actually have my suspicions that not even the end of the comic will bring that up to 100% -- or drive it down to 0 for that matter. )

If we kinda just look at that situation of bathing with Miho from a perspective of conscience, it enters the conscious mind with a concern there might be an issue of regressing to the calm known past, the already answered and over, but still existing in some ways to go back to. Regret, bothered by not making the correct choices, an unease that it happened wrongly, feelings of attachment or love even. Maybe we could say, that to his conscious mind "the girl doesn't exist she isn't real she never was" but to the subconscious (as Yuki and Largo and Erika and Kimiko and many here have picked up on) there's still nagging not well understood issues, unresolved, waiting to return. Apparently Yuki thinks it's love. Largo and Erika some sense of cheating. Kimiko a past she wants to help Piro figure out. Which the last is allegory perhaps, to the both of them working on "Kotone's story" and bringing it to life. It really only matters what Kimiko and Piro think about their relationship. She seems working towards a number of goals, he seems working on resolving his baggage.

Although some of what Piro remembers of the past isn't necessarily at all his own, which might help more explain his problems in resolving it. Powerful story type influence and all. 1st allegedly the information/emotions Largo and Piro were getting from Endgames were at least somewhat to a large extent not theirs but Miho's. To paraphrase part of her explanation: there were hidden statistics built into each character's data structure including self-worth, attractiveness, desire, love, jealousy. By manipulating these emotional statistics she was able to overpower and control large portions of the user base. Just not fully control the characters of Largo and Piro. 2nd the chats, which apparently were not so much romance as something else. They might have been mostly Piro's own thoughts, filtered through whatever Miho was doing to guide him (or he her) during the interactions. That seems to have in large part stemmed from game behaviors though (part of the emotional hack?) and then out of game her telling him about the ASF. Maybe there was also panicking about something else. The degree of honesty versus manipulation is unclear, it's pretty sketchy, only having what little Yuki talked about and whatever was in the guarded conversations Miho and Piro were having about it in the apartment store gaps bathhouse school. A point being that we don't know how much of what is in Piro's subconscious is whatever it is Miho represents, what she was, what she put there, or is himself. Whatever the details, there is an inner conflict potentially doing the equivalent of raging.

This inner conflict, that his conscience showed up at the first bathing for, seems a large part why outwardly there has been little to no expression of much romantic concern about Miho. Because it's likely not romance so much as practical, direct, and revolving around saving her and fixing her issues; but for him, not for her. That involves some return to the reminiscence of the feelings from before, which of course are real in that way they have. It's also somewhat skewed towards the unreal by their perceptional and emotional and in-the-past aspects. Which would be not so much actually about her or in the conscious mind, but instead how he feels subconsciously about the entire je ne sais quoi circumstances, events and semi-resolutions of before. Keeping in mind the endgames hacks or ignoring them, his questions revolve around some "I don't understand" aspect that he doesn't want to just flow with or to ignore any longer. Resolving this sort of thing takes a lot of work, and might not be resolvable even still, which might also help explain some of the hesitancy in doing so. Perhaps it's yet another allegorical application of what Miho has said ostensibly about others, as if he's trying to build a real her, to finally bury what she represents. This appears one way Ibara was incorrect, the truth does matter to Piro because it's what he's trying to fix, this reliance on the how it makes you feel part. Which apparently he isn't fully fond of all that how he felt in the feelings or how it's holding him back now. Perhaps that's why 'getting better fans' is otaku logic powers. Not only because you can't just randomly at will replace who the fans are, but because he is talking about himself.

So at the bathhouse his conscience isn't sure it is needed at first (a great clue the answer is no) and then quickly learns it isn't. That neither Piro or Miho are in any way actually trying to implement the past of Endgames emotions and online chatting. Yet his conscience stays, needs to learn more, wants additional insight, perhaps is even pulled into the story's powerful draw. In the following conversation, eventually Piro's frustration at the conversation itself starts him acting in ways where his conscience appears to side with Miho and then leave. Or at least that's the way it seems portrayed to us, and it's one-sided in the personification of his conscience giving us some insight into his thought processes. (Unless Seraphim is somehow reflecting the both of them.) Either way, the situation ends with nothing happening, and seemingly Piro no more with his answers than when it started.

Then we have in the room here. There is little question at the very beginning his conscience is needed. It's already dressed for the occasion (and hinting the decision is finalized), suggests things that likely are only perception, brings up rhetorical questions that aren't important (and really already answered) and that he flatly tells a number of things (what, depends upon the reader's perceptions). But there is no discussion, no seeking of advice, no need for; apparently he's answered the questions if he can be okay with letting the poor thing rest, to be in the now without trying to fix or control or fully understand the before. That it's possible to keep the feelings that one has no choice over keeping or not, and to also not have those left over feelings ruin the present. This "conversation" on letting go of the past appears unlike any before where he's trying to resolve something. Like in a tough one big mode size and fit fault . Which are also a fairly good example of things he's never seemed to worry about when it has to do with {Moh m0h Miho Kotone}.

When it comes to "his choices" many of us like both of them pretty well, but things have just always seemed to be more tending to drift towards the future. A future that seems to have begun with being hit in the head by an errant coffee pot at Anna Millers, not being ambushed with information at Magical Cake. Maybe it's always been that deep inside most everyone logically practically realizes the matching set of Erika-Largo is more probably Kimiko-Piro, even if their emotive impractical sides feel otherwise. Although there also is always that They just want to feel sad about it part. Piro specifically choosing gives everyone a chance to feel sad about something, even if it's not the choice itself which ever it is and why ever it is. Getting an answer can be sad. The meta aspects. And for those who might still be fixated on Piro and Yuki or Piro and Erika, most anything else happening is likely sad.

That also demonstrates something else about opinion and perception. Nobody has been wrong about either Miho or Kimiko, he clearly has some sorts of feelings for both. One set is just apparently only about an abandoned path and a little bit of data remanence. Which as he put it is no less real or important or different. Yet is also the past and memory, not the now and in the process of happening. Or at least so far it's that way.

Nothing is over yet for any notion that some side can proclaim some victory about how their perceptions seem to have turned out so far. After all, everyone is just guessing, and even if luck does constitute some sort of victory, it's not because anyone was right based upon a subjective measure of fact one can be right or wrong about. They just happened to have guessed how things happened to have went, and even that is not set in stone. And appearances can be deceiving if one doesn't have the proper context. Regardless if it's " how i want to feel " or not.

There are at least three things. First, this today isn't over yet, even if for us the scene is. Second, whatever happens next there's a lot more in the works waiting, likely both consumer grade level and Ninj4 grade level. Third, things change sometimes, even after they've been solidified over time and sometimes before they have a chance to.

Ugh. There's a forum, right? I remember coming to the forum now and again. Oh yes, here it is.

Aaaaanyway, I've long been saying (mostly to Fred) that I think if there's any future for Piro and Miho, whatever has happened, is happening, and will happen between Piro and Kimiko is necessary for him to reach a character growth point where he can actually deal with seeing past all the baggage and having a proper committed relationship with Miho. And also that if there's any future for Piro and Miho, Kimiko will still need some kind of closure on everything that's happened between her and Piro.

Of course if there is no future for Piro and Miho after all, then all the Piro/Kimiko stuff is just for its own sake.

Fred keeps insisting that he can't allow the character that's supposed to be based on himself to have a nice ending with either girl, but most of the time he doesn't end up listening to himself anyway.

It's kind of odd, in a way. Back many years ago Fred declared he was going to stop dragging things out and aim for an ending to the plot, and he later said doing so made the plot good again. (And it turned out aiming for an ending didn't get him there any faster either.) Well, Fred's efforts in turning Piro towards Miho came about because the Piro/Kimiko relationship was running out of steam. Both of them are too boring to move things along without the outside plot throwing disasters at them. And yet as a result of that, look at how far Piro/Kimiko has advanced versus how far Piro/Miho has advanced.

Although at this point it's still nearly impossible to get a read on what Kimiko's intentions are. Things were meta enough when she was being "both herself and Miho". Now that she's "stopped being her", what is the play? "That was fun, now go to her"? "Go to her, but if it doesn't work out I'll still be here"? "You have another choice to make now, her or me"?

The only character who ever believed otherwise is Yuki, and she’s a confused little girl, happy to have saved Miho at all. Now she can focus on her blossoming relationship with Chewtoy.

Even most of the Story Discussion forum members expected/wanted Piro to choose Kimiko. Hell, I’m starting to question if maybe I got it all wrong, and Piro’s love for Kimiko really is as strong as it was for Miho. In that case, he ought to be fine with leaving Miho in the past even when they run into each other again eventually, right? Of course he’ll feel a little guilty because that’s just how Piro rolls, but he made the rational choice, after all.

Miho’s just a bit of data remanence who’s done nothing but manipulate him ever since she approached him in Endgames, and caused him nothing but pain and frustration since she blasted him with that picture of Phil the janitor. She hasn’t changed at all, even though Ping’s come closer to building “a real her” than any other game that’s ever called her back into the world.

So...why does this feel so very wrong?

Ninja edit: Never mind about begging for validation like an unhinged fangirl; I cross-posted with Ray Kremer and he’s provided plenty of food for thought. I would like to point out that Fred seems to be enjoying a stable, loving marriage despite innumerable bad things happening to them, so it is possible for a character based on himself to angst his way toward a happy ending.

Fred keeps insisting that he can't allow the character that's supposed to be based on himself to have a nice ending with either girl, but most of the time he doesn't end up listening to himself anyway.

Ha, yet another parallel between Piro and Arthur Dent, namely the ending of "Mostly Harmless". (Heck even most of the book before the ending, Adams literally dropped Fenchurch right out of existence ) Much as I love MegaTokyo and will be happy to follow it for as long as it continues, a very small and mildly paranoid part of me is always a little surprised to see that Fred has not yet had a hair-pulling, bug-eyed, forehead-vein-throbbing moment of "GAH!!! Fsck it! Fsck it all! No more MegaTokyo dammit! High intensity satellite-based lasers, pow pow kapow!! MegaTokyo chunks EVERYWHERE!!! How's THAT for a happy ending you soul-sucking BASTARDS!!!"

EDIT:
@paarfi: Forgot to give you many thanks for the Hee Haw reference, you made my day.

Last edited by darrin on Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

always a little surprised to see that Fred has not yet had a hair-pulling, bug-eyed, forehead-vein-throbbing moment of "GAH!!! Fsck it! Fsck it all! No more MegaTokyo dammit! High intensity satellite-based lasers, pow pow kapow!! MegaTokyo chunks EVERYWHERE!!! How's THAT for a happy ending you soul-sucking BASTARDS!!!"

He does that all the time. Fortunately, he never really follows through on it.

always a little surprised to see that Fred has not yet had a hair-pulling, bug-eyed, forehead-vein-throbbing moment of "GAH!!! Fsck it! Fsck it all! No more MegaTokyo dammit! High intensity satellite-based lasers, pow pow kapow!! MegaTokyo chunks EVERYWHERE!!! How's THAT for a happy ending you soul-sucking BASTARDS!!!"

He does that all the time. Fortunately, he never really follows through on it.

There are a number of those here who believe it's been going a certain way, and it has nothing much to do what we want or not. Mostly I just would like the flow to make some fair amount sense when balanced against the situations and behaviors, not who it is. If that which seems obvious isn't the case, so be it.

It could be his original deep subconscious idea was to go to MT to resolve these sorts of things things, although apparently he wasn't thinking of that much, seems to only know who she is at all and learn that it wasn't really "Phil" when she is her most direct ever at Magical Cake and tells him. As he genuinely appears surprised she really is female after all, but doesn't care enough to pay much attention to it except when interacting with her and forced to consider it. Eventually he starts to care more though yes. But the whole story power thing that only is strong when it's going on nearby. In which case most any focus by him on it is only because Miho sometimes and mostly a lot of other people, including Yuki Erika Kimiko Ping Largo Dom, fairly continually bringing it up this way and that, eventually. It could be he's never been personally much for any of it, preferring to mope and such to actually getting any thing regardless. Or yes maybe Seraphim's attitude is only what mimics his, an undercurrent. Ancient Irish Muse Goddess or otherwise. But again, that appears more memory and nostalgia than anything else, most of it potentially only stemming from the overwhelming power of the story. None of us really know. Maybe nobody does. Even if anyone knows at all for sure one way or the other, always in motion is the future. And the characters appear to have a mind of their own. Potentially.

So that's an interesting idea certainly, MT Piro can't make up his mind because neither can RW Piro. If not, if there's never actually been much of an issue with that aside from the rethinking it in different ways, the seventeen plus year path that essentially started with an Anna Millers Coffee Pot might be where the growing up has been going the entire time.