TCW vs. Rebels debates are not allowed in the Television forum. As in, discussions that descend into TCW/Rebels bashing/gushing will be subject to Mod action. Contrasting the themes, story lines, characters, etc. between the shows is allowed (welcomed, even). "Versus" debates/arguments, however, are a deal-breaker.

My problem with Mortis was that it created more problems with the Chosen One stuff than it clarified. And I actually liked the first episode mostly. I liked part of the second ep and loathed the third. The stuff with Anakin turning for 5 seconds really brings it down and wastes time the way it was executed.

If we're turning this into a complaint-fest, the arc I thought was completely wasted was Order 66. The Mortis, Yoda and Bardotta arcs may have involved some creator self-indulgence, but they might also turn out to be a preview of a new, more magical direction for Star Wars, so I'm hesitant to call them a waste until I see how those ideas are developed. Order 66 was just a dumb attempt to fix something that didn't need fixing. The clones do not need an inhibitor chip. There does not need to be any secret "kill Jedi mode." Order 66 does not need any special properties that make it different from Order 65 or Order 67. Clones follow orders, and that's all the explanation we needed. The "on the run" aspect of the arc was entertaining, but the meat of it was just a waste of everybody's time that disrespected the characterization of the clones.

The clones do not need an inhibitor chip. There does not need to be any secret "kill Jedi mode." Order 66 does not need any special properties that make it different from Order 65 or Order 67. Clones follow orders, and that's all the explanation we needed.

No ****.

And good point about the other orders. Were there 150 inhibitor chips in each clone's brain?

I agree with most of your post (Although I wouldn't mind more TCW episodes) what was so bad about the D-squad arc? I've only seen the first epiusode of it and it wasn't that bad, It wasn't good but I didn't outright hate it. Do things get worse?

If you liked the first episode, you might like the entire arc. But it's not for everyone (and definitely not me). I did not like the first episode, and I think the second episode of the arc was the worst of the four.

Had the arc been condensed into a standalone story or two-parter, it might have been OK. But IMO four episodes was way too long for what it was.

I never really liked when TCW dragged out stories to four episodes. Some arcs can use a little shortening.

AFS: I don't know that there was any agenda to S5. Some think so, fine. I still think the Wrong Jedi is a strong story. I think it was brave of Ahsoka to leave the Jedi and really it was rather dumb they figured she'd just act like the prior several eps never happened. I don't see the Yoda Arc as broad anything but whatever you like.

AFS: I don't know that there was any agenda to S5. Some think so, fine. I still think the Wrong Jedi is a strong story. I think it was brave of Ahsoka to leave the Jedi and really it was rather dumb they figured she'd just act like the prior several eps never happened.

You just presented the agenda.

That's exactly what you were supposed to think.

Look at Ahsoka! Look at how brave she was! Look at how enlightened she was!

I'm sure it felt like validation for people who already hated the Jedi but I'm not swayed in the least bit.

The writer Brent Friedman said his unaired Season 7 Clone Commando arc centered on Rex and Echo, and it was a "dirty dozen" type of group. Anakin has an active role with them. It got me thinking that Rex has some major catastrophic battle injuries and ends up getting cybernetics like Echo. This takes him out of the 501st and into this new group of experimental cyber commandos. I got to thinking about this also because Friedman's Season 8 arc had the "Terminator 2" buddy pic vibe with Rex and R2. Rex is more like a Terminator after all with the cybernetics.

Here's the Echo concept art again which Dave shared on the unproduced commando S7 arc:

I'm sure it felt like validation for people who already hated the Jedi but I'm not swayed in the least bit.

It's a bit like what happened on 24. Good and bad guys both used torture in the early seasons of the show. There wasn't a lot of commentary about it (other than that it was super effective); it was just presented for us to form our own opinions about. But pretty soon, political writers would critique 24 just on the presentation of torture, ignoring all other aspects except maybe for surveillance. It started becoming the most important thing about the show. We got storylines involving torture that kept getting longer and more central to the plot and characters. Toward the end, Jack got essentially put on trial for all the people he had tortured over the previous seasons, and torture was the female lead's main subplot. It had gone from a sidelight to a main subject of 24, to the show's detriment.

That's what the "unpopular Jedi doctrine" element of the prequels and clone wars feels like to me. In every prequel, their more... uh... controversial aspects are more important and more complicated. In TPM, some found certain Jedi teachings were a sour note, but they were presented without much commentary. Then they started getting more and more focus -- a major aspect of the Anakin/Padme thread in AOTC, and then a major part of everything in ROTS, a subject of the plot in their own right, where Anakin hating Jedi doctrine could be the main point of a scene.. And finally we end up with this arc where the wrongness of the Jedi is the entire subject, there's a big trial, and our hero takes the high road -- the words "wrong Jedi" are right there in the name, for crying out loud! Freudian slip much?

It ate the show. The ST had better get back to an outlook where Jedi are a good thing. I'm tired of Jedi wrongness.

Cyborg Rex? I wonder what would happen to Rex to give him such injuries. I hope its not an explosion like the one Echo may have managed to inexplicably survive. For a badass like Rex I want to see some sort of beat down last stand where he keeps getting beat down, gets up and lasts a few blows. Then he get beat down again but gets back up. Repeat til Rex wins and collapses seemingly dead at the end having beaten his opponent.

Man, I kind of feel like Echo surviving even if Fives is dead and doesn't know he's alive (how did he not know?) undermines Fives character arc.

Don't get me wrong, Jedi can do awesome things and sometimes even act awesomely- but you are tripping over them in various Star Wars stories. It feels like Jedi Wars and some other stuff that happens in the background. Jedi work best, IMHO, when they are used more sparingly compared to normal non Force sensitives like pilots or diplomats or smugglers or bartenders. Helps keep the mystique and hype high.

I'm sure it felt like validation for people who already hated the Jedi but I'm not swayed in the least bit.

It's a bit like what happened on 24. Good and bad guys both used torture in the early seasons of the show. There wasn't a lot of commentary about it (other than that it was super effective); it was just presented for us to form our own opinions about. But pretty soon, political writers would critique 24 just on the presentation of torture, ignoring all other aspects except maybe for surveillance. It started becoming the most important thing about the show. We got storylines involving torture that kept getting longer and more central to the plot and characters. Toward the end, Jack got essentially put on trial for all the people he had tortured over the previous seasons, and torture was the female lead's main subplot. It had gone from a sidelight to a main subject of 24, to the show's detriment.

That's what the "unpopular Jedi doctrine" element of the prequels and clone wars feels like to me. In every prequel, their more... uh... controversial aspects are more important and more complicated. In TPM, some found certain Jedi teachings were a sour note, but they were presented without much commentary. Then they started getting more and more focus -- a major aspect of the Anakin/Padme thread in AOTC, and then a major part of everything in ROTS, a subject of the plot in their own right, where Anakin hating Jedi doctrine could be the main point of a scene.. And finally we end up with this arc where the wrongness of the Jedi is the entire subject, there's a big trial, and our hero takes the high road -- the words "wrong Jedi" are right there in the name, for crying out loud! Freudian slip much?

It ate the show. The ST had better get back to an outlook where Jedi are a good thing. I'm tired of Jedi wrongness.

Well said. The PT and TCW writers should have stopped with the few scenes demonstrating that the Jedi had their heads up their asses where Palpatine was concerned; the scenes demonstrating that they did not believe the Sith could possibly come back. That would have been sufficient to show them as "flawed."

The PT elicited some fan commentary that if the Jedi had just let Anakin get married, maybe they wouldn't have died, but I think the majority still came out of the movies believing that the Jedi were victims and on the side of right, with Palpatine and Anakin being unequivocally wrong.

TCW sought to expand on "the Jedi should have been nicer to Anakin if they wanted to live" mindset by throwing Ahsoka into that mix. That final arc was intended to make the viewer angry at the Jedi on Ahsoka's behalf. And the Order 66 arc was intended to make the viewer angry at the Jedi on the clones' behalf.

Enough already. It was ridiculous. TCW desperately needed a headstrong innovative writer who insisted on a "guardians of peace and justice" arc. Or three. Or four. Just to balance out the "piss on the Jedi" arcs.

As far as Rebels and the ST, no, I don't want to see Jedi everywhere either. They are supposed to be dead in Rebels, and the ST would not realistically have as many Jedi as the PT and TCW.

I'm sure it felt like validation for people who already hated the Jedi but I'm not swayed in the least bit.

It's a bit like what happened on 24. Good and bad guys both used torture in the early seasons of the show. There wasn't a lot of commentary about it (other than that it was super effective); it was just presented for us to form our own opinions about. But pretty soon, political writers would critique 24 just on the presentation of torture, ignoring all other aspects except maybe for surveillance. It started becoming the most important thing about the show. We got storylines involving torture that kept getting longer and more central to the plot and characters. Toward the end, Jack got essentially put on trial for all the people he had tortured over the previous seasons, and torture was the female lead's main subplot. It had gone from a sidelight to a main subject of 24, to the show's detriment.

That's what the "unpopular Jedi doctrine" element of the prequels and clone wars feels like to me. In every prequel, their more... uh... controversial aspects are more important and more complicated. In TPM, some found certain Jedi teachings were a sour note, but they were presented without much commentary. Then they started getting more and more focus -- a major aspect of the Anakin/Padme thread in AOTC, and then a major part of everything in ROTS, a subject of the plot in their own right, where Anakin hating Jedi doctrine could be the main point of a scene.. And finally we end up with this arc where the wrongness of the Jedi is the entire subject, there's a big trial, and our hero takes the high road -- the words "wrong Jedi" are right there in the name, for crying out loud! Freudian slip much?

It ate the show. The ST had better get back to an outlook where Jedi are a good thing. I'm tired of Jedi wrongness.

Well said. The PT and TCW writers should have stopped with the few scenes demonstrating that the Jedi had their heads up their asses where Palpatine was concerned; the scenes demonstrating that they did not believe the Sith could possibly come back. That would have been sufficient to show them as "flawed."

The PT elicited some fan commentary that if the Jedi had just let Anakin get married, maybe they wouldn't have died, but I think the majority still came out of the movies believing that the Jedi were victims and on the side of right, with Palpatine and Anakin being unequivocally wrong.

TCW sought to expand on "the Jedi should have been nicer to Anakin if they wanted to live" mindset by throwing Ahsoka into that mix. That final arc was intended to make the viewer angry at the Jedi on Ahsoka's behalf. And the Order 66 arc was intended to make the viewer angry at the Jedi on the clones' behalf.

Enough already. It was ridiculous. TCW desperately needed a headstrong innovative writer who insisted on a "guardians of peace and justice" arc. Or three. Or four. Just to balance out the "piss on the Jedi" arcs.

As far as Rebels and the ST, no, I don't want to see Jedi everywhere either. They are supposed to be dead in Rebels, and the ST would not realistically have as many Jedi as the PT and TCW.

That is your opinion and I respect it.
I still think that TWC exposed certain aspects about the nature of the Jedi Order at that time and the Jedi philosophy that was not touched upon the films. And let's just leave it at that.

Also, I don't think the Order 66 Arc served the purpose you are referring to. On the contrary, it provided closure to fans of the clones, so that they don't think that the clones killed the Jedi out of simply following orders. Instead, they have chips in their brains and they killed they carried out Order 66, because they were "programmed" to do so.... *sigh*

Cyborg Rex? I wonder what would happen to Rex to give him such injuries. I hope its not an explosion like the one Echo may have managed to inexplicably survive. For a badass like Rex I want to see some sort of beat down last stand where he keeps getting beat down, gets up and lasts a few blows. Then he get beat down again but gets back up. Repeat til Rex wins and collapses seemingly dead at the end having beaten his opponent.

Man, I kind of feel like Echo surviving even if Fives is dead and doesn't know he's alive (how did he not know?) undermines Fives character arc.

Yeah i hear you on that. Cyber-Rex was just my speculation since he is in the Echo arc, and he is in Friedman's T2-like arc (which also had me contemplating time travel!). We should probably write off my speculation based on the question Friedman answered today:

Brent Friedman ‏@BFree63:

@Halabrew No time travel in the Rex/R2 arc. The T2 vibe came from our heroes co-opting a Super Battle Droid... and growing attached to it.