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Seems to me the folks on Palistine's side are not gonna listen to anything that differs from their pre-concieved ideas... and in like fashion the folks on Israel's side are not gonna listen to anything that differs with their pre-concieved ideas... SOOO

This thread, like many at ARP, will go down the toilet and end up with aggression, name calling, insults, and hopefully not action by the committee. All of which is NOT in the spirit of being THANKFUL for all the wonderful things we have in our lives... Remember it is THXgiving week guys.

SOOO: GA is gonna un-subscribe from this thread. Nothing right or wrong on the ME argument, and I am not for or against any specific poster or post... rather GA is tired of the negativity. GA wants to enjoy the holidays with a positive attitude... so he is gonna bow out.

I dont condone agression on either side, but one needs to understand how such a situation came to being. I find that the majority have never looked in to the history of this situation, and are now only making judgements on what our propaganda media is telling us.

Do some reading on the history of Palestine, btw thats what that country was called before it was called Israel. Israel is an apartheid goverment, and as long it is such, these problems will persist, and maybe get worst.

I survived WWII, dont ever want to see another one.

Roy

A man is no less a slave because he is allowed to choose a new master once in a term of years.
Lysander Spooner

Well, Roy, I've written at least one, probably more like two long-winded posts about the history of Palestine on these forums in the past. I haven't the energy or time to repeat it.

Just reading history isn't going to do anything. Case in point, your view that Israel is an apartheid government.

I'm not sure who needs a history lesson more than you after having come to that conclusion. You've perhaps heard of the IDF field hospitals deployed, such as to the Kosovar Muslims, and the Kosovar refugees brought to Israel, and the repeated offers of search & rescue assistance and field hospital help to Iran during her regular earthquakes, etc. And, apart from Arab sheiks, you're also aware that Palestinian Arabs experience the best advanced health care of any other general Arab population. Do you have any idea why they enjoy that status?

If Israelis hate Arabs and Muslims then they're doing it all wrong.

But that doesn't stop you from making whatever declaration suits you, does it? So, given that recent history flies in the face of your claim, I can only wonder how you think things would change if some here studied even older history? It's pretty clear that bias appears on all sides. Again, your post superbly illustrates just that.

"Most people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so." ― Bertrand Russell

Anyone can find anything they want regarding Israel and Palestine depending on far back they want to go. IMO it doesn't do anyone any good. People need to get along or coexist or just leave each other alone. From what I see Israel is willing to negotiate a long term peace agreement with the Palestinians. I'm not saying they are willing to give the Palestinians every thing they want but they are at least willing to give, and try to live in peace. However many on the Palestininan side only want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. IMO they are lucky that countries like Israel and America who could easily wipe them off the face of the earth choose instead to try and negotiate peace.

Its hard to negotiate with someone who's only intention is to kill you.

I've believed for a long time that the Palestinians have no interest in any kind of peace with Israel. They are just waiting and hoping that countries like Iran, Egypt, Syria get strong enough and destroy Israel.

We live in a different world today. In the past you had an enemy, you bombed and killed them into oblivion. Nowadays, countries like Israel and America have to worry about collateral damage and use "strategic strikes". I have a feeling at some time in the future people will look back and wonder why we treated people who wanted to kill us with such compassion. Hopefully it wont be too late for us.

Well, Roy, I've written at least one, probably more like two long-winded posts about the history of Palestine on these forums in the past. I haven't the energy or time to repeat it.

Just reading history isn't going to do anything. Case in point, your view that Israel is an apartheid government.

I'm not sure who needs a history lesson more than you after having come to that conclusion. You've perhaps heard of the IDF field hospitals deployed, such as to the Kosovar Muslims, and the Kosovar refugees brought to Israel, and the repeated offers of search & rescue assistance and field hospital help to Iran during her regular earthquakes, etc. And, apart from Arab sheiks, you're also aware that Palestinian Arabs experience the best advanced health care of any other general Arab population. Do you have any idea why they enjoy that status?

If Israelis hate Arabs and Muslims then they're doing it all wrong.

But that doesn't stop you from making whatever declaration suits you, does it? So, given that recent history flies in the face of your claim, I can only wonder how you think things would change if some here studied even older history? It's pretty clear that bias appears on all sides. Again, your post superbly illustrates just that.

I was talking about "The Goverment", not people. I never claimed that Jew's dont help others in need. But what is an apartheid goverment, its a goverment that treats non jews as different, by law.

But then since you know so much about Israel, you are aware that Arab Israelies do not have the same rights as Jewish Israelies ??

Roy

A man is no less a slave because he is allowed to choose a new master once in a term of years.
Lysander Spooner

I dont condone agression on either side, but one needs to understand how such a situation came to being. I find that the majority have never looked in to the history of this situation, and are now only making judgements on what our propaganda media is telling us.

Do some reading on the history of Palestine, btw thats what that country was called before it was called Israel. Israel is an apartheid goverment, and as long it is such, these problems will persist, and maybe get worst.

I survived WWII, dont ever want to see another one.

Roy

Sorry Roy, but it was named Palestine long after Israel was there as an ancient nation. The Jews have owned the area they currently occupy plus more for thousands of years.

Furthermore, this conflict was not started by Israel. In every violent confrontation between Israel and her neighbors it is clearly an arab neighbor who was the agressor.

I have several good friends who live in Israel right now. They are americans working there and have been living in Israel for over 20 years, had children there and work there. I see them when they visit the US every few years. Much of what is posted here as well as what ABC, CBS, CNN and the newspapers tell us is very tainted indeed. Many arabs live in Israel and are citizens who vote just like any other citizen. Israel simply wants to live in peace and conduct business like the rest of the free world.

Their arab neighbors are constantly causing trouble and are quick to turn violent. They hit and run and hide behind schools and little children. Middle Eastern arabs have clearly stated that they do not want peace with Israel and want Israel wiped from the map.

Sorry Roy, but it was named Palestine long after Israel was there as an ancient nation. The Jews have owned the area they currently occupy plus more for thousands of years.

Furthermore, this conflict was not started by Israel. In every violent confrontation between Israel and her neighbors it is clearly an arab neighbor who was the agressor.

Hugh.

The area is also known as the Holy Land, being holy for all Abrahamic religions including Judaism, Christianity, Islam and the Bahá'í Faith. Prior to the Israeli Declaration of Independence of 1948, the whole region was known by various other names including Southern Syria, Syria Palestina, Kingdom of Jerusalem, Iudaea Province, Coele-Syria, Retjenu, Canaan and, particularly, Palestine.

Roy

A man is no less a slave because he is allowed to choose a new master once in a term of years.
Lysander Spooner

I was talking about "The Goverment", not people. I never claimed that Jew's dont help others in need. But what is an apartheid goverment, its a goverment that treats non jews as different, by law.

But then since you know so much about Israel, you are aware that Arab Israelies do not have the same rights as Jewish Israelies ??

Roy

Boy, for someone that claims that others aren't in the know, I find your claim to be rather ironic.

There is, in fact, NO written law that says that Arab Isrealies have less rights than Jewish citizens. Perhaps you would like to produce such a document? Good luck as it doesn't exist.

Please read the Isreali Declaration of Independence.

That's not to say that there isn't discrimination against Arabs, there most certainly is and it's documented. But your claim that this happens "by law" is patently false.

That said, let us please not forget that Isreal has taken many steps to correct this, but still have a ways to go. Just like we do with racsim here in the USA. Arab women vote in Isreal, but in many cases are prevented from doing so in other Muslim lands. In addition, in 2001 the first Arab served on the Isreali cabinet.

In addition, the aid that I mentioned was provided by the IDF; a goverment agency.

I'm willing to admit I'm wrong; produce the document. Otherwise, please... we have enough to worry about without people making stuff up!

"Most people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so." ― Bertrand Russell

I am well aware of all the names the area has been called. So, what is your point?

Islam was invented about 600AD (can't recall the exact date at the moment) while Judaism had already been around for well over 1500 years. There is absolutely no evidence that Muhammad ever went to Jerusalem, ever. Ancient history places the Jews in that very place for thousands of years. If that is not their homeland then you tell me what is.

Israel is a tiny country about the size of New Jersey. The arabs have vast amounts of land many, many, many times larger. What is the problem with allowing Israel to remain on their little piece of land? Why is this such a difficult thing for the arabs? Simply because they hate Jews. No other reason.

If Israel were wiped off the map and not a single Jew were in the entire Middle East, the arabs (Islamics) would fight with one another. Just as they do anyway are are doing as we speak. The problem is not Israel. The Arabs regulary call for the "Total Solution" of Israel just as the Nazis did not long ago.