Wonder how that works with the first dungeon being level 35 and several being available at level 80 only. I think the whole "endgame starts at level 1" will only stay true to some people.

I am not so sure that is a separation though. Dungeons do exist as a game mode in GW2, but don't really have the same purpose behind them. Whereas say the leveling game 1-84 is a totally different experience and goals then 85+ in Warcraft. There is essentially two distinct games; pre & post 85.

Obvs, a bit of marketing by Anet. They might be full of it come release. On the surface, there really doesn't to be anything that shifts in focus at L80.

Levels are BS. I can't wait till MMOs drop the convention entirely. They mean nothing, they extend the grind and have no bearing on anything at level cap anymore. When was the last time what you did at level 17 meant a damn to what you were doing at level 85?

TLDR: What content involving groups taking on bosses and challenges together can I expect in GW2?

Hello there everyone, this is not a thread of complaining, but rather of questioning. I've been doing some research on Guild Wars 2 and so far am very excited to play it. The combat system is awesome and innovative, no subscription fees means I can play it casually without having to worry about wasting money every month, and the game is just downright beautiful. However, despite my extreme enthusiasm, I have developed a few minor concerns. I'd just like to ask if any of the community members happen to know the answers to these questions.

I am a co-operative gamer through and through. My favorite games are those in which I can team up with a group of friends to take down a big challenge. This is why I love MMO's so much - gathering together with a big ol' group of people and beating the crap out of massive bosses is an absolute blast, and it's just about what I live for in the genre. I also really enjoy dungeons, though not as much as big teams of people beating up bosses.

when I heard that no raids were going to be in GW2, I was a little worried. I understand that not all MMO's need raids to be fun/successful, but I'm beginning to worry that hacking and slashing my way through a massive dungeon with huge bosses in a large team of players is going to be only a dream and not a reality.

So, if there are no raids, what can I expect to occupy my endgame cooperative-PVE-loving time with?

Think LFR and normals as storymode dungeons they then go onto have each dungeon with 3 additional "explorable" modes. This explorable mode is said to have challenging and unique content. So i hear theres 3 path's that can be run, with each of these having some randomized content and events. They say if you run a dungeon 30 or so times you are likely to not repeat the same thing cept for 2 maybe 3 times.

There are also the open world raid bosses which provide loot to you no matter what...these are different to traditional mmo raids simply because you can have mass raid...it dynamically scales etc. Character progression is different to what we are used to...the gear upgrades come in a cosmetic sense...which i maintain for those hardcore raiders that gear everything and get the best gear all they do then is flex epeen as everyone checks out their gear KNOWING they have done 4/8 HM's etc etc....similar idea ... people KNOW you have done x dungeon on x explorable mode....its hard shit...not a walk in the park and as such...people go WOAH you must have done x dungeon on its respective " Hard mode "

Keep in mind there are gear upgrades in the form of sets etc...you label and create your own custom sets of gear....their are tokens like rigorous chest etc etc...you then attach this to your chest and for each " rigorous " piece you have on you gain an additional upgrade like 2 set is 5% dmg...3 set is x...4 set is y 5 set is z...etc etc....you create your own sets...so you hunt down these tokens...which is the "gearing" while the gear changing itself is the cosmetic side.

He didn't ask about the whole game. He asked about a specific part of the game, and his question is just as justified as that of about competitive PvP for example. PvP may start at lvl1, but competitive PvP is a whole different beast.

Generalizing like this to justify a point undermines GW2's image very badly in the eyes of those you're trying to convince, as they will likely assume that it's just like many other games where "game starts at lvl1" because there is simply no end game content, and it must be justified somehow.

The bold part makes it sounds like you need to reach lv cap to be apart of competitive pvp, you don't need to be at lv cap to join the competitive pvp.

Levels are BS. I can't wait till MMOs drop the convention entirely. They mean nothing, they extend the grind and have no bearing on anything at level cap anymore.

Meh, I like the way GW2 is doing it. Levels do exist so that the developers can sort of direct you through the content to a certain level since they don't have the limited scope that non level-based single players do. So they serve a purpose, but I agree that they are emphasized FAR too much in most traditional MMOs.

I don't think you quite understand what competitive PvP means. Designers stayed with "PvP characters" in GW2 specifically because you could not join competitive PvP otherwise at early levels.

As for getting rid of levels, GW1 tried this. Essentially all content but tutorial zones were designed for max level characters with exception of prophecies, where about half of content was sub-max level content. You can go try yourself how that worked. Considering that they decided to move away from that model suggests that it did not.

As for getting rid of levels, GW1 tried this. Essentially all content but tutorial zones were designed for max level characters with exception of prophecies, where about half of content was sub-max level content. You can go try yourself how that worked. Considering that they decided to move away from that model suggests that it did not.

Not sure I understand this. Are you implying PVE content was less than successful in GW1 due to low level cap?

It's not really a model they are pulling away from either. A flat leveling curve achieves essentially the same thing a low, easily reachable level cap did. It equalizes disparity of level/power relative to the content. What exactly are they doing in GW2 that doesn't have the same result?

In Structured PvP all players stats are bumped up and all skills are unlocked. They did this because it was annoying for pvp players to grind for all there skills, a choice which I personally agree with after pvping for a bit.

also they have stated they don't consider WvWvW competitive and have even gone around calling it their "unbalanced pvp", I believe that's where your getting this subpar stats idea from.

competitive pvp is pvp played at the highest caliber with players who know their stuff, They have said you can play competitively in pvp at lv1.

Originally Posted by Lucky_

Designers stayed with "PvP characters" in GW2 specifically because you could not join competitive PvP otherwise at early levels.

you can join in pvp as soon as you finish the tutorial zone (ex: killing that giant golem/elemental with the human for example), their are no "pvp only characters" in GW2.

Originally Posted by Lucky_

As for getting rid of levels, GW1 tried this. Essentially all content but tutorial zones were designed for max level characters with exception of prophecies, where about half of content was sub-max level content. You can go try yourself how that worked. Considering that they decided to move away from that model suggests that it did not.

I personally liked the 1-20 lv cap, I really don't think you can say it failed. I believe they used 80 lv's to better lead players in there new open world

Last edited by SPeedy26; 2012-01-04 at 07:16 AM.
Reason: making my points clearer

I think Lucky is confused on how structured pvp works in GW2. Your character will be bumped to level 80 with max level gear and all skills available, just like it was for PVP only characters in Guild Wars.

I think Lucky is confused on how structured pvp works in GW2. Your character will be bumped to level 80 with max level gear and all skills available, just like it was for PVP only characters in Guild Wars.

You are allowed to make a PvP character at max level with all gear. Your current character will not be bumped, nor receive new gear.

Not sure I understand this. Are you implying PVE content was less than successful in GW1 due to low level cap?

It's not really a model they are pulling away from either. A flat leveling curve achieves essentially the same thing a low, easily reachable level cap did. It equalizes disparity of level/power relative to the content. What exactly are they doing in GW2 that doesn't have the same result?

First of all, yes, I'm not so much implying as stating it. It was all but admitted by Izzy and a couple of others that lvl20 cap, and most of the game being designed for max level "denied the player ability to feel that his character was getting more powerful", or something among these lines. Not my words, and prior to both nightfall and EotN there was a big discussion about bumping max levels up to 25, which was only passed on because the remarkable amount of re-balancing they would have had to do to get it to work.

Also, flat leveling curve is drastically different from flat level. Your numbers become bigger, which in turn makes you feel more powerful. At the same time, game becomes effectively tiered, where you can see how enemies that you couldn't kill before become killable as you level up.
To describe the difference mathematically, it's the comparison between f(x)=1 and f(x)=x. And from what we've heard so far, leveling power up is most likely going to be either f(x)=sqrt x commonly used in most modern mmos or even f(x)=x^2.
(where y is power in relation to level x)

Scaling downwards for past content doesn't remove the feeling of powering up in any way as you progress, and it seems that arenanet designer team has largely accepted their "zerg to max level during tutorial, then enjoy actual content on max level only" model from guild wars 1 as a failure for PvE. In fact, I recall them being very remorseful about how lvl20 limited their ability to design PvE encounters back in factions when they talked about it during the conventions.

---------- Post added 2012-01-04 at 09:49 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Fernling306

That is incorrect. That is how it worked in GW1, in GW2 all your characters bump automatically when you join conquest pvp.

Link me please. I remember multiple cases of them boasting that they are removing the need to unlock for PvP characters. Nothing about removing need to unlock stuff for PvE ones.

When a player takes a character into PvP, they are granted access to all the necessary skills, items, etc. Characters are set to the maximum level, putting everyone on an even playing field. This makes player skill more important than time invested in a particular character. When you take your character back to the PvE environment, you return to the skills and gear you had there, but the game will save your last PvP setup. You'll also be able to store templates for builds. This way, you can try out new stuff in PvP but still easily return to your familiar builds.

Each profession will load into PvP with a starter template that allows new players to have a competent build without needing to delve into detailed skill selection, item selection, or other tweaks. However, these more detailed customization options will be available for players who are more comfortable with the system.

So they opted to completely remove PvP characters? That will certainly be a boon for casual crowd then, I stand corrected.

Massive screw over for the more hardcore people like myself though, unless they will give enough character slots to have at least 1 of each profession. If I will have to click through a dosen character creation menus where I have to choose storyline and such every time I make a new PvP character, it will suck and suck hard, especially since none of it matters for PvP. Hopefully the PvP only character creation is still present in some form, so PvE stuff stays on PvE side when character is made purely for PvP for a few hours to be deleted afterwards to make way for another one.

Did they say anything about simplified PvP only character creation without having to click through storylines and other PvE fluff every time its created? It also means no hot join for WvWvW with any class you want either, a strange reduction of PvP accessibility.

P.S. I also liked the lvl20 cap, it emphasized skill in PvE, as you couldn't overpower content with most of it being designed for max level and gear being fixed in power level as well.

Well the same thing does apply in GW2, since all content scales and with the sidekicking system scaling your level/gear to appropriate levels no one will be able to just faceroll any content in the game so it's always relevant and always challenging based on your skill.

So they opted to completely remove PvP characters? That will certainly be a boon for casual crowd then, I stand corrected.

Massive screw over for the more hardcore people like myself though, unless they will give enough character slots to have at least 1 of each profession.

actually I hear a lot of hardcore pvpers praising this because it allows them to play around with builds with out the grind, imagine SC2 where you need to play a certain amount of time before you could use dark Templar

Originally Posted by Lucky_

Did they say anything about simplified PvP only character creation without having to click through storylines and other PvE fluff every time its created? It also means no hot join for WvWvW with any class you want either, a strange reduction of PvP accessibility.

nothing other then pressing next over and over, once you complete the tutorial you can pvp all you want

Originally Posted by Lucky_

P.S. I also liked the lvl20 cap, it emphasized skill in PvE, as you couldn't overpower content with most of it being designed for max level and gear being fixed in power level as well.

can't overpower the content in GW2 either but I do agree 20's a better number then 80 imo :P

actually I hear a lot of hardcore pvpers praising this because it allows them to play around with builds with out the grind

The praise part is about removal of need to unlock stuff before you can use it. Same could be achieved without axing PvP only characters.

And for the record, when you're remaking character in a hurry because the group is waiting for you and you barely have the time to slot the skills into bars before leader queues you in, having to click through random PvE crap will piss you and entire group off every time you have to do it. "Sorry guys, this retarded PvE crap is making you wait again ".
It's going to be one hell of a QoL issue, and I suspect that arenanet isn't foolish enough not to get it fixed in one way or another.

The praise part is about removal of need to unlock stuff before you can use it. Same could be achieved without axing PvP only characters.

And for the record, when you're remaking character in a hurry because the group is waiting for you and you barely have the time to slot the skills into bars before leader queues you in, having to click through random PvE crap will piss you and entire group off every time you have to do it. "Sorry guys, this retarded PvE crap is making you wait again ".
It's going to be one hell of a QoL issue, and I suspect that arenanet isn't foolish enough not to get it fixed in one way or another.

If they gave you enough char slots you can make 1 of each class (unless your like me and make 3 different warriors for no reason what so ever :P) and then your QoL problem is solved. But I do see your dilemma if you don't make one of every class or they don't give you enough slots to make one of every class.
with that said it really takes about like 5 min's to qualify for pvp so its not like you have to sit though a set of 30 min cut scenes

Originally Posted by Lucky_

So they opted to completely remove PvP characters? That will certainly be a boon for casual crowd then, I stand corrected.

Massive screw over for the more hardcore people like myself though

btw how does this change appeal to the "casual crowd"? just wondering

Last edited by SPeedy26; 2012-01-04 at 12:54 PM.
Reason: to avoid confustion