Jumpgate and EVE, by Yoh2009-07-11 04:17:17 CSTAs far as I'm concerned, I think there is room for both.
I quite like the idea of more twitch based, hands on combat, but then that all depends on the stability of the game engine. If it lags out when a dozen or so ships are on screen, then you have a problem.

But if it can like EVE, you get into the hundreads, now we're talking. And this isn't to say that EVE will always be boring combat wise, as due to their unique, evolving expansion system, they could if fact solve it in the future, possibly from learning fron Jumpgate or Black Prophasy.

I think they will be a good expertment, and will add to the industry as a whole. Weather or not they last in the long run like EVE has, and probally will, remains to be seen.

And yeah, EVE is just plain boring, great, but boring. But unlike you, I reckon it is the fault of the developers, because if I had my way with it, it wouldn't be boring. Of coarse they are also in the best positition to fix their mistakes. Mistakes happen, and I don't blame them for that. Doing nothing about the mistakes made however, is just plain stupid.

Although, given that I am working toward getting employed by CCP, it'll only be a matter of time that I do have my way with it. (somewhat)
I just have to get off my lazy ass.

Repainting the turd., by Yoh2009-07-11 02:26:40 CSTWhile I have repect for alot of what you say, and you tend to be in the ball park on most of it, I just don't really agree with you here, and this is why.

First, I don't use the term "WoW-Clone" (I don't play WoW), as it IS over used, and a bit of a cliche. There is some degree of truth behind it nether the less.
Not that Aion in this case is directly copying from WoW as it implies, but rather that it is copying from the same tired old generation of mechanics that WoW is famous for. (which incidently preceeded WoW, by in large)

By which I mean, levels, classes, fed-ex/kill-ten-rats linear questing, mutliple severs, various social barriers, and in general the same old motherfucking grind present in all modern MMO's.

The problem is, that MMO's nowdays are all (well, mostly, with some noticable exceptions, such as EVE) just attempting to resell the same product, the same experiences to us, the consumers, that we've all had before....... several times before.
Where, they introduce maybe a handful of 'New' mechanics and ideas, with their own lore/story, world, art style, etc. Then they stop thinking, and copy pretty much everything else, and try to pass it of as some 'completely new and exciting'.
Where I think we've (the industry and playbase) have come to the point that we can see it for what it is, bullshit.

They haven't really made anything that we haven't already done to death, they've just repainted the turd. And I for one am sick of it.

In Aions case, it doesn't really matter wether it is in beta or not, because at this point we can see the core mechanics, and guess what, there pretty much exactly the same as every other MMO out there.
But not only that, but they just didn't seem to push the boundries, or add anything of any real value to the industry. So they have flight mechanics, whoop-di-fucking-do. Yeah, that's what I've been jonesing for these last 4 years, flight mechanics. Yeah......

Sure, I amit that Aion is beautiful and stable, but in this day and age, it's a given that we expect.
And yes, I relizes that at the end of the day it is our own fault, as our expectations have grown. But that's buisness for you, to meet the expectations of your consumers/customers, and at the minute, the industry is struggling to do that.
It could be that our expectations are unrealistic, or it could be that developers are just slack, or anywhere inbetween.

But ultimately, repainting the turd is just not going to cut it.

(This also doesn't nessercarily mean we know what we want, even thou I do, or how we can fix the problem, which I do, it just means the status quo doesn't work.)

So while I can't condone some of what is said to developers regarding this issue, as some people do take this too far, and just don't communicate effectively, I do understand it.
And sometimes there is just no polite way of saying "Stop copying the same fucking mechanics from 10 years ago!".

Mechanics, by Seritaph2009-07-24 19:18:38 CSTBack when I first played WoW in beta, the first thing I noticed was that it was just like EverQuest, but they fixed all the things that drove me nutz about EQ at the time and added some minor but cool new features. Mana and health regenerated faster, quests were logged in a book and displayed the reward in advance, there were no zone lines and the world was seamless, travel times were reduced with flight masters, and so on. Yeah, cool stuff, but otherwise it played JUST LIKE EVERQUEST. Why? because EverQuest, Ultima Online, Asheron's Call and all the MUDs before that defined the genre. Just like Castle Wolfenstein and Doom defined the genre for the first person shooter. There are certain game mechanics that define what an MMO is and will continue to be prevalent in MMOs to come. It's always been my stance that people who are frustrated with these mechanics, like Yoh, aren't looking for a ground-breaking next-gen MMO. They are essentially tired of MMOs and looking for a new type of game or genre.

I do see your point Seritaph, but I don't agree that they are set in stone as you imply.
And no, I'm not looking for an new or different genre, I really am looking for that next-gen of MMO.

And where I think it starts, is with ditching baggage mechanics which are holding the genre back. Levels and classes are chief among them, because in MMO's, they become social barriers, and thus work against the very idea of and MMO, people.

In the case of Doom and Wolfenstein, copying from the past isn't the problem, good mechanics and indeed ideas, should be propagated. And first person shooters have undergone refindment, but its fine to reuse the core mechanics if they don't cause any real problems and get the job done, which it does in this case.

The same cannot be said of the core MMO mechanics. (even thou MMO's are amorphous, and can take just about any shape one could imagen, so there is no 'real' core mechanics there)
They do cause problems, all the freaken time, and everyone damn well knows it. So my point is, why hang onto mechanics that clearly cause these kinds of problems that ultimatly hold the title back?

If anything, I would say lazyness. Either that, or they don't see it as a problem, because their either not looking, or don't play anyway. (with the latter, if the developer doesn't even play the game their working on, then they obviously don't believe in the product their selling, and don't know where the cracks are.)

Although, there is one other possibility, is that they DO know where the problems are, and simply don't care to fix it, because that takes time and money, and if they can get away with selling you the same product and hench, experiences, then they will. Then its the fualt of the consumers, for blindly eating up the crap these developers shit out.

Which is why I take the position that I do. If I see a product, which I so obviously just a rehash, with seemingly no effort made to push the boundries, or at least tell a good story or give a real new experience, then I have no interest supporting them in any way, shape or form. If fact, I'd even go so far as to actively cast dissent, if it's within a genre I actually care about, such as with MMO's.

There is room to cast legitimate dissent in this situation. I just wish people would do it in a more constructive manner.

~Yoh

Ground control to Major Tom, by Seritaph2009-07-27 15:13:43 CSTYoh,

Levels and classes a social barrier working against people? On the contrary I think that's part of what pulls people together. So I disagree with that statement. Besides if you're looking for an MMO without levels or classes, then you're looking for more of a sandbox, like Second Life or Tale in the Desert, which are more like a Sim than an MMO in my opinion.

In regard to MMOs mechanics causing problems, well that's all subjective. You can't please everyone all the time. What may be an annoyance for you may be simply a challenge to overcome to someone else. But you're not specific about what mechanics bother you, so this is a dead-end.

And this conspiracy theory that developers are out to feed us all crap, well that's just paranoid. And I don't think they're lazy either. In fact, I would love to see the design doc you would come up with to launch the MMORPG into the next generation.

To quote Paul Barnett in the G4 MMO report, "Try writing the design document for Tetris, it's harder than you think. And if you want a puzzling question, try this one: You're in charge of the game of chess. What rule are you going to change, what are you going to change it to, and why did you do it? If you can do all that you're on way to being a designer. And then you can come and work here."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rTP379u1ek

Don't take it private, by Julie2009-07-27 15:57:09 CSTUnlike what you often hear in forums where some one says "please take it private" my comment is just the opposite - please take it public. I would like to invite the two of you (Yoh and Seritaph) to be on an upcoming "High Noon" on the show to discuss the ins and outs of this issue for the benefit of our listeners.

In the mean time I see several good articles in the making here and I think I will get to it.

Julie

Sounds good to me, by Yoh2009-07-28 10:36:22 CSTHigh noon it is then.
Let me go get my shotgun.

Actually I was getting to a point that I wanted to go on your show anyways, to cover this topic, as I feel it is indicitive of the industry as a whole.
Although I may want to listen to your last couple of podcasts with Pual Barnett, because I not sure wether I agree or disagree with him. But from what I have heard, he sounds like a reasonable bloke.

And there is a limit to how far you can accurately explain your position in text.
I'll have to get my good mic out for this. (which incidently, is still crap)

And needless to say, I still completely disagree with Seritaph's almost asine position.
Nice quote btw.

In this corner, by Julie2009-07-28 11:06:04 CSTI wouldn't exactly equate Seritaphs opinion with any part of someone's body - but if we can get Seritaph to agree we have ourselves a high noon. And show 40 with the last of the three part Paul Barnett interview is nearly complete. I am finishing the editing today.

Julie

No thanks., by Seritaph2009-07-28 16:40:00 CSTMostly because I've already stated my position here to my satisfaction. And though I admire Yoh's "passion", I find his demeanor to be a bit too aggressive (to put it politely). Not to mention, I like to keep a more ambiguous and distant approach, due to certain circumstances. But to a degree, I've enjoyed this discussion. Sorry to disappoint.

Not a problem..., by Julie2009-07-28 16:50:25 CSTNot a problem Seritaph. We (Fran and I) respect your position and certainly understand it...so...game off.

Julie

So no go, eh?, by Yoh2009-07-28 20:54:21 CSTWell that's unfortunent, I was looking forward to laying into you. ^^

But that's fine.

Would it still ok if I came on the show, as my original beef was with you anyhow? (although not to the same degree)
Maybe not high noon, but just a conversation all the same.

And it's cool Seritaph, you can call me an asshole, I am one, I fully realize that. Tact, I don't has it.

~Yoh

Generic Post Title, by Julie2009-07-28 21:11:11 CSTThere is an old expression that says "It takes two to tango" or as Bugs Bunny put it once, "It takes two to tangle."

Missing words, by Yoh2009-07-29 02:52:18 CSTYeah, I really should proof read more.
Ment to say, 'I'm NOT exactly sure what your driving at there Julie.'

Geez, I rush things.

Driving, by Julie2009-07-29 03:59:55 CSTMe driving? People crazy perhaps but nothing more. No hidden meaning. You just can't have a heated debate on air with Seritaph if Seritaph will have none of it...and I can understand why not (as plainly stated).

Ah, I see where your driving, by Yoh2009-07-29 05:07:35 CSTI thought that was what you were talking about.
Although I had already conceeded that that was not going to happen, as he had opted out, but then I sujested just a regular, old fashion discussion, between me, you and fran. Or did you skip over that bit?

Well whatever, it's your show.
But if you ever wanna chat, there is always email.
Yoh_SL@yahoo.co.nz

I think I'm going to go read up more on Paul Barnett now.

~Yoh

AION vs WoW?, by PeZzy2009-08-20 05:00:15 CSTIf you want to compare AION with WoW, just create a starting character in each game. You should quickly see how old and backwarded WoW is compared to AION. A person who cannot see the difference in the graphics, animation, environment and combat needs to stop reviewing games.

An MMO is running more than just graphics..., by Beauturkey2009-06-14 12:48:46 CST...when you are playing one, your pc is keeping up with rendering all the other stuff on the fly, as in other avatars and the like.

Granted, your PC has all that stuff already ON your PC, but there is a lot more to an MMO's engine and how it runs than with a single player game. That's why instances work so well, because it can be a controlled graphical environment.

If you walk into Dalaran, for example, in WoW, your PC is loading all the people that are there, along with all the people that are coming in, and it's keeping in constant contact with the server through several electronic channels. It's actually pretty amazing.

Also, MMO's want to keep their graphics requirements low to reach as many people as possible.

Beau

And the point is..., by Julie2009-06-14 17:34:12 CSTAnd the point is Kudos to companies who can uses "low end" graphics (read graphics that run on computers that are five year old computer) and still look good.

True Dat.., by Beauturkey2009-06-14 18:37:09 CST...I feel sorry for companies when trying to decide where to go with an engine. It could have issues, look dated..hard to say.

But I agree, it's tough, makes ya appreciate all the ones that do it right.

Beau

same same, by dan2009-06-15 18:39:26 CSTI understand exactly where you are coming from. I have had Oblivion for quite some time now on the PC, and rescently got Mass Effect. Oblivion runs great and looks amazing, but ill pop in Mass Effect and runs like a stick in the mud. To me they look about the same, i just dont understand why they don't run the same way.