I believe that the Celts as constituted right now will be offensively challenged. They will not be able to match up with the Heat. At the same time, Ray's presence would not have helped too much. He made a good decision for himself.

However, there are some things to look forward to. The first is the emergence of Sullinger. He should soon grow to be a valuable contributor to the Celtics. The second is the growth of Jeff Green. I am interested in seeing what he becomes when he grows up. The third is the growth of Avery Bradley. Unfortunately, he is coming off of surgery. But he has the ingredients to become a special player. Finally, the trade deadline. Once Ray decided to leave, without commenting on his reasons, Danny had very little room to maneuver. He will have more flexibility at the trade deadline.

All of these need to happen for the Celts to challenge Miami. Clearly, the probability of all of these happening is very low. There is another possibility: Rondo successfully adjusts his game to meet the team needs and becomes an offensive player. Somehow, that seems to be the least likely to happen.

I have serious concerns about the quality of the Celtics roster. However, I am still supporting the team and will look forward to interacting on this board and watching the Celts games this year.

Nicely put, prakash. I agree with the last paragraph, above, that I put in italics.

Your post reads like something written by a grownup. Not once did you accuse me of saying something I did not say nor did you atack me as person. You addressed some of the content of my actual thread post and actualy agreed with some of my assessments.

What's there to argue, like I said?

I agree with much of what you said. Jeff Green is pretty much a grown-up now,and I don't see much change in him comming. More consistency, maybe, but he's a laid back guy and he seems to be sufering with confidence issues and a lack of intensity--that just may be his style. I lke Jeff and hope he succeds AB, I worry about with those injuried shoulders and I worry that his injury problems will beccome chronic and keep him off the court too much.

And on Rondo, I sadly agree.

As I've stated previousely, the marketing hype srrounding this team pre-season really irrittated me and the rah-rah pre-requisites of the thought-police here, along with the hate directed toward Ray all combined to form my attitude today.

p.s. Rajonrondowski lest there be any misunderstanding, I think personally you are a valued contributor on this board, and as a staunch free speech advocate the only people I would ever personally want off this board are those Laker trolls and fake Celtic fan sockpuppets who are clearly here to disrupt. Otherwise in my view, as just one voice, I think all are welcome. You and I just happen to passionately disagree on this topic and I also think you could have expressed your views without writing off the season one game in, which bothered me because nothing is settled - yet.

Well, thank you for that. That was quite unexpected. I recognize your passion as I have witnessed it over the years.

However, you do atribute to me something I never said both in this post and in previous ones. 1) I never wrote off the season, unless you mean by saying that I don't think these guys will win anything as constituted. That's pretty much conventional wisdom around the league. The Celtic's organization marketed this team to us as a title contender, and it upsets me to actually see the product they hyped so much in action.

I also never claimed that Ray was right, the Celtics wrong. I simply stated that I took a nuanced view over a complex issue where neither party covered themselves in glory. I think Ray really wanted to retire a Celtic for a long time, and I think the Celtics really wanted Ray back. In that sense neither party got what they wanted, but I think the C's came out on the losing end of that deal and the Heat won, at least as long as Ray performs well for them under his two year contract.

I do believe the Celtics could have handled Ray better from a management perspective, where it is management's duty to manage difficult people, manage egos, and juggle responsibilities. Ray, also, could have handled things better. Neither party covered themselves in glory, but I'm not hating on Ray or the Celtics for it, just combatting some of the foolishness I've read here.

The many people who seem to think (hope?) Ray will fail in Miami surprises me and the litinany of reasons they give for thinking Ray will fail is laughable, isn't it. Is that what you call, moving on?

At least you do acknowledge that Lee, Barbosa, and Terry were Plan B. That the Celtics wanted Ray and Avery, along with Rondo, in the back-court. They had to scramble to fill in the gaps and then the Celtics put some mighty spin on it, and that, imho, was a mistake.

Some things make me react negatively and they all kind of came together here in a perfect storm of sorts and I managed to address most of them in one single thread/'post.

I don't think going negative is a sin but a good way to expres your emotions at a time when you feel put upon, disappointed, and unhappy with the bill of goods you'ver been sold.

Haven't been to the board for a few days and just saw this thread. I have to say it is pretty comical to read RR's manifesto against bullying when it has been he in the past that has been most commonly labelled a board bully.

In response to RajonRondowski's comment: Ray Allen is a whining sack of ego who demands diva treatment instead of being available for the betterment of the team. Taking less money to play with you bro's is one thing - which is what the Heat divas did - but taking less money to join you enemies? That's just classless - there is no defending that act of traitorism. So whether the Celt's would be better off with The Traitor is a moot point. He is gone. Get over it. Does an aging diva look his best in the first game of the season when he has rested up all off-season? Assuredly! Did he leak the Celt's game plans to the Heat? Admittedly! Now: will The Traitor formerly Known as Ray Allen be healthy come playoffs? No clue. We can only hope that Father Time delivers the karmac coup-d' grace so deserving of such a loser. We have much more relevant issues to concern ourselves with.

Curt Flood would roll over in his grave if he ever knew a Free Agent turned down double the salary and a no-trade clause with a possible starting role to go come off the bench for your arch-rival, who really doesn't need you!!!

Curt Flood would roll over in his grave if he ever knew a Free Agent turned down double the salary and a no-trade clause with a possible starting role to go come off the bench for your arch-rival, who really doesn't need you!!!

I knew Curt Flood. Curt Flood was a friend of mine. You, Sir, are no Curt Flood.

Nor do you you have an inkling as to what Mr. Flood would or would not do in any situation. Nor are you qualified to speak for Curt Flood.

Curt Flood would roll over in his grave if he ever knew a Free Agent turned down double the salary and a no-trade clause with a possible starting role to go come off the bench for your arch-rival, who really doesn't need you!!!

I knew Curt Flood. Curt Flood was a friend of mine. You, Sir, are no Curt Flood.

Nor do you you have an inkling as to what Mr. Flood would or would not do in any situation. Nor are you qualified to speak for Curt Flood.

Nice try, but no bananna.

Ya can't look at much, can ya, Man.

Apparently unfamiliar with the "figure of speech" thing?

Don't know what to believe anyway, or whom. But I do NOT appreciate the sarcasm, and I will remember it, sir!!

Nicely put, prakash. I agree with the last paragraph, above, that I put in italics.

Your post reads like something written by a grownup. Not once did you accuse me of saying something I did not say nor did you atack me as person. You addressed some of the content of my actual thread post and actualy agreed with some of my assessments.

What's there to argue, like I said?

I agree with much of what you said. Jeff Green is pretty much a grown-up now,and I don't see much change in him comming. More consistency, maybe, but he's a laid back guy and he seems to be sufering with confidence issues and a lack of intensity--that just may be his style. I lke Jeff and hope he succeds AB, I worry about with those injuried shoulders and I worry that his injury problems will beccome chronic and keep him off the court too much.

And on Rondo, I sadly agree.

As I've stated previousely, the marketing hype srrounding this team pre-season really irrittated me and the rah-rah pre-requisites of the thought-police here, along with the hate directed toward Ray all combined to form my attitude today.

Can you share your opinion of me with my son? It will be really helpful.

Thanks for calling me a grown up. The interesting thing is that it took me a while to grow up. I was an unsure punk for a while. But with the right situation and support, it happened albeit a little late.

That is why I was holding hope for Rondo's continuing growth last year, just as I do now for this year. But I do believe that Rondo will only manage to reduce his liabilities, not overcome them.

The same hope I hold for Jeff Green. I do believe that throughout his career, he was never put on the spot. There was never a strong demand for him to grow up, to step up. That demand is being made now and he has to respond or wither. He is feeling the pressure. I hope he responds.

I too worry about AB's shoulder. But then there is a lot more to worry about with these Celtics. So lets shove these negative feelings aside and hop on the band wagon and get ready to enjoy another season of Celtics basketball. Lets raise our glasses to our Boston Celtics!! May they have a season to remember!!

Can you share your opinion of me with my son? It will be really helpful.

Thanks for calling me a grown up. The interesting thing is that it took me a while to grow up. I was an unsure punk for a while. But with the right situation and support, it happened albeit a little late.

That is why I was holding hope for Rondo's continuing growth last year, just as I do now for this year. But I do believe that Rondo will only manage to reduce his liabilities, not overcome them.

The same hope I hold for Jeff Green. I do believe that throughout his career, he was never put on the spot. There was never a strong demand for him to grow up, to step up. That demand is being made now and he has to respond or wither. He is feeling the pressure. I hope he responds.

I too worry about AB's shoulder. But then there is a lot more to worry about with these Celtics. So lets shove these negative feelings aside and hop on the band wagon and get ready to enjoy another season of Celtics basketball. Lets raise our glasses to our Boston Celtics!! May they have a season to remember!!

In response to rameakep comment:

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Let's have those who consider themselves fans of the green show Celtic Pride and support the product we have while understanding that the team tried to keep Ray and the plan B is a pretty darn talented and deep club that just need time to come together...

[/QUOTE]

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Dammmnnnn . . . . it's getting to be kind of like a veritable luuuuuv fest around here.

Prak, that's a very nuanced take on Rondo and how he may progress this season. Is it a case of him being his own worse enemey? Do we give him credit for being more intelligent than he is? Doc credits Rondo with the highest basketball IQ ever, and I always equate that with his general intelligence quatient, but I may have made a false assumption. Hate when I do that. Like how smart is it to dribble the shot clock away and then clank one up or look for a temamate to bail you out with an ill advised shot. He's got us all in a holding pattern waiting to see which way he will turn.

I'll tell ya this, if he can ever become a knock down jumb shooter there'll be no stopping him. And if his decision making in the half-court offence improves he could be debated as among the best ever. A big "IF", but doable.

This is a great opportunity for a number of guys to step up and find out what they're made of, Jeff Green among them, but Lee in particular. I don't know him will but have not liked what I've seen so far. But then again, nobody in a Celtic uniform looks particularly comfortable out there right now.

Plan B has to work, it's the only plan we got now. As for the trolls and the hypercritical, there is quite a difference between being critical and criticisizing them [Doc & Danny] for particular actions or inactions, it's another thing alltoghether to smear and attack their intellignence and integrity.

I've traditionally been an huge Doc and Danny supporter and defender so I don't feel I have to pull my punches when I don't agree with their actions and level criticism at them. Their decisions, with which I may not agree, don't make me hate them, and being critical of them doesn't make me a bad guy.

I predict going to .500 very soon. Staying there, ah, that is the question.

- but, and here's one you're missing: yes, Ainge did a terrific job coming up with a good plan B given what was out there and available

- yes, it doesn't look like plan B is working out great so far, but

- yes, it's way too early to judge how well this will work out for either team

- yes, the Celtics have challenges far beyond losing a very old player, including the age of their two other best players

- one of the main reasons the Celts are struggling is due to the disappointing play of Jeff Green, which has nothing to do with Ray Allen at all

- no, Rondo was not the only reason Ray left. Blame falls on Doc and Ainge and Ray himself for not seeing that the team was better off with Bradley starting and him coming off the bench. Everyone shares blame when things don't work out.

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Pretty well put, Spanker.

Yes, Danny did a good job with Plan B, considering he had to scramble to do so.

"-yes, it's way too early to judge how well this will work out for either team"

Isn't it a safe bet to say that it will probably work out pretty well for Miama, but that the jury is still out in Boston?

On Jeff Green, yes I agree, if Jeff was playingup to his ability the C's would be doing much better. Would it be safe to say that many of us expected perhaps 15 pts. per game from Jeff, at least in the 10 to 15 range?

And we expected Green to be getting many easy buckets off of Rondo passes in transition: where's that hiding?

Maybe we expect too much too sonn after his long layoff. I think he will come around, but it may take some time. When he does come around, I predict that it'll be like someone flipped a switch.

Many of the C's woes could disappear overnight if Green steped it up.

And again, last night's game showed in a bad light, what happens when KG comes out.

Ray Allen won't be walking back through that door any time soon . . . in a Celtic's uniform.

The Big Three Era ended when Ray walked.And Ray Allen won't be walking back through that door any time soon . . . in a Celtics uniform.Obviously the Celtic's brass wanted Ray back: and they thought he would make a big difference for the 2012 season, perhaps the last best chance for KG, Paul, and the Celts to have a legit shot, albeit a long shot, at a title in the foreseeable future.

For some to claim that Ray would not have made a difference to this team is simply ludicrous.It doesn't just border on the absurd, it is absurd.

Some things are complex, such as the professional and personal dynamics that led to Ray leaving the Celtics, but some things are simple:what is simple in this case is that the Heat got measurably better by adding Ray Allen and the Celtics got immeasurably worse by losing Ray Allen. It doesn't even take a high basketball IQ to understand the how and the why of this simple fact.

There are those on this board who try to bully and browbeat anyone who speaks positively of Ray Allen, and I suspect that they are the same ones who were giving Ray short shrift since he arrived in Boston, calling for him to be traded each year since he arrived.There has never been a shortage of Ray haters on this forum.Now they think that by repeating lies often enough and loud enough they become true . . . no, no, no, they've tried that in politics and most people see right through that: A lie is a lie, is a lie.And a bully is a bully whether on the playground or in a forum. The Ray haters have turned into the bullies of the forum attacking anyone who won't buy into their groupthink and agree with them.Go $crew yourselves.

Commiecontrairian said it well: "[The] green will regret not giving ray his respect earlier and casually dangling him out there and making him an afterthought."

That's a short statement, but it packs a punch and carries a lot of truth in its content.

The browbeaters and bullies of the forum try to discredit Ray at each and every step even downplaying his early success with the Heat while placing their hopes and dreams on one Avery Bradley who, last time I checked, hadn't won anything or proven anything and who may prove to be so injury prone he may never be a factor for the Celtics.I hope Avery comes back and develops into a perennial All-Star and more importantly straightens out this Celtics team and leads us to the title in 2012/13.However, I would like our chances a lot better if Ray Allen were playing for the Celtics and not the Heat.

B - O - R - I - N - G .

One word sums up today's Post Big Three Era team: B-O-R-I-N-G!

This collection of run-of-the-mill players will never win anything, I'm afraid.Who among the faithful believes this team can contend for a title this year as constituted?Step right up and speak up loud and clear, don't be shy.

I don't even think Paul and KG buy into what Doc and Danny are selling.I don't think Paul and KG even think for one second that Rondo can be the team leader, that it is now Rondo's team.Just look and listen to them, Paul and KG, lip syncing the party line, but their body language and tone tell another story, one that speaks volumes.Why do you think KG wanted Ray back so badly, why do you think he's so put out about not having Ray? Don't answer, a rhetorical question has an implied answer.

This whole "re-tooling" farce is Plan B after Danny lost Ray.He scrambled around to put together the missing pieces and everyone slapped him on the back for putting together the "deepest team" in the NBA, on paper, at least. Paper don't play.

Hey, this team may gel overnight and make an unprecedented run straight to the playoffs, and I'd be a happy man to get to see that and be more than happy to admit that I was wrong.Hey, Let's hope I'm wrong and that this team is not boring, is not a run-of- the-mill, middle-of-the-pack NBA team or worse.

In the meantime, I shall remain critical of Celtic's management as is my right as a fan and I shall mourn the loss of Ray Allen, as is also my right as a fan.Being critical of my team, the Celtics, does not imply disloyalty, does not make me a bad fan, a bandwagon fan, or imply that I am not, in that laughable terminology of the bullies-of-the-board a "real" fan.

To the Bullies-of-the-Board

(You know who you are: you who tell people how to think and what not to say and demand that everyone agree with you or else get off the board (you know to whom I'm talking.)

To the bullies-of-the-board, the browbeaters, who can't accept that someone actually disagrees with them, or dares to venture an independent opinion, I say get a grip.Stop your bullying tactics, stop calling people stupid simply because they disagree with you. Stop calling people names, period. Stop looking for simplistic explanations for complex problems.Try to make this board a better place.It is bad enough we have to deal with Laker and Heat trolls, but we don't have to descend to their low level by bickering among ourselves.

The name-calling, the bullying, and browbeating some Celtic's fans engage in have made this board a pathetic place to be. Say that fast 3 Xs. Lol

I don't ever remember this board being such an unpleasant place to share a passion for Celtic's basketball.

Ya can't look at much, can ya, Man.

I think what you are referring to is "post trade syndrome" where a player gets scorned for being dealt, except Ray was not dealt, he just wasnt courted and so its the same results. The Player works his tail off in the offseason because he wants to prove he still has it. His new team wants to show him he made the right decision and allow him to rub it in so they do everything possible to let him play a good game. This usually dies down after a month or so and the player looks like his old self and we all know Ray is gonna be hobbling down the stretch come April and thats when it counts not now..

I think what you are referring to is "post trade syndrome" where a player gets scorned for being dealt, except Ray was not dealt, he just wasnt courted and so its the same results. The Player works his tail off in the offseason because he wants to prove he still has it. His new team wants to show him he made the right decision and allow him to rub it in so they do everything possible to let him play a good game. This usually dies down after a month or so and the player looks like his old self and we all know Ray is gonna be hobbling down the stretch come April and thats when it counts not now..

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TripleOG you don't have to copy the entire thread or post when you reply, especially if it's a long post, you can delete all of it or at least the non-relevent parts.

I know that syndrome you speak of, and I don't think it applies here. Ray Allen is far from an average player, and I don't believe he thinks that way. he just goes about his routine day in day out and keeps his conditioning up to a level superior to most NBA players. His creaky ankle was repaired in the off-season, and Miami does not have him running off screens all game.

I think Ray will hold up well and have a great season.

I'm more concerned about Avery Bradly. After his brief moment in the sun he's been out of commission while Ray, the guy so mailgned here, is playing at the top of his game.

Bradley's been out a long time and may be plaqued with creaky shoulders his entire career. The Celtic's management has a reputation, also, of not being forthcomming about injuries. That's got me wondering about Bradley.

I wonder why posters are not talking about how Bradley will be breaking down by the end of the season: there's as much evidence for that as there is for Ray, one of the best conditioned players in the NBA, breaking down.

I hope they both stay healthy and have great seasons. It's a lot more fun to watch them play than sit.

I would say that the jury is still out on the C's yes, and Miami is absolutely happy with their new addition, but for them to 'expect' even 80% of this Ray allen all season is wild fantasy... they need to hold back his mins, pray he is healthy come May, and even then its not like they didn't get 3 insane shooting games from Mike Miller to close out series last year (14-20) and good 3 point shooting from thier bench.. Ray doesn't make them that much better than what they had.

Hmmn. You may be overexaggarating here about Ray and his health and understating how much he improves the Heat.

As for Boston there is little question it will get better here. This team played GREAT with Avery in the starting lineup late last season... he will be back there by mid-Dec and back to his old self a few weeks later.

I'm pulling for Avery, I was thrilled to see him come into his own, in fact I could hardly believe what my eyes were seeing. I'm worried that he may be much more injury prone than Ray with creaky shoulders that limit his career. I hope not.

Once that happens, the expectations on Lee and Terry are reduced... you want them to just shoot their career #'s and solidify the bench. What is to be expected is that they will improve upon the bench we had last year. when Avery began his hot streak it was a month before Ray was hurt but he really took off as a starter. During that time Sasha and Moore were the backup SG's. Then Ray came back in the playoffs and shot 41/27/67 in 30 mins and gave us 10 pts.

It is safe to say that a Bradley/Lee duo, w a lil Terry thrown in, is going to be superior this year to the Bradley, Sasha, hurt Ray w/ a lil Dooling thrown in SG group of a year ago... that managed ton be on fire late in the season and win 2 playoff series.

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Playing around with the format a bit here.

"Terry will prove to be better than Dooling"

Man, you are the master of understatement. Terry should be a candidate for 6ht man award, and Doling was never that. Terry was supposed to make a major difference this year along with Jeff Green in providing scoring off the bench. These guys were supposed to be the cure for the scoring draughts we've been going through.

"My expectations for Green were 26 mins and 11-13 points and to be better than Pietrus.. I still except that."

Finally, something we absolutely agree on, 100%.

Bass looks better than a year ago and Sully is def better than playing Pietrus at PF or Ryan Hollins.

You and I and the resident pundits of Celtic Nation agee on this too: Bass has been the steadest, in the sense of playing his game and carrying his consistancy over from last season, of anyone on the team. I hope Doc fooling around with the starting lineup doesn't affect Bass in a negative way.

Wilcox and Darko have a long way to go to prove to be better than Steimsma, but probably will in the end. This team needs a serious frontcourt addition to really contend, but has the parts to get it done.

I thought Wilcox was really on a roll early last season before he got hurt with an ankle/foot(?) and then went out for the heart issue. He was looking real good running the floor and getting some O boards for put backs. He was banging. He'll be back, like Jeff we understimate the time it will take for these two to get it together.