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Author
Topic: The Gay Elephant In The Room (Read 4674 times)

As many of you probably are aware, Vice-President Biden said on "Meet The Press" that he is for marriage equality. However, President Obama is still "evolving" on the issue. The White House seemed to be trying to walk Biden's statements back Sunday. This morning on "Morning Joe," Education Secretary, Arni Duncan was asked and said he fully supports marriage equality.

There was a pretty good discussion about all this tonight on "The Last Word with Lawerence O'Donnell." O'Donnell showed clips of Obama talking about how he is evolving and Obama listing the things he has done so far--DADT, HIV ban repeal, not defending DOMA, hospitals required to treat same-sex partners the same, Matthew Shephard law, and pledging he would sign a repeal of DOMA. It was discussed how Obama said he doesn't expect gays and lesbians to be patient on this issue and he fully expects to be pushed in the right direction. One pundit said this is obviously political, fearing many socially conservative Dems (especially black and hispanic Dems) wouldn't like a pro-marriage equality stance. Another said people are waiting for his words to match up with his deeds. Perhaps President Obama is expecting marriage equality proponents to become more vocal, to hold protests and marches. Besides writing a few letters to my reps and discussing marriage equality several times a week on Facebook, I haven't gone out of my way too much. I have mostly sat at home, expecting and waiting for others to do the work.

Thank god for that statement.Now if Obama would stop dancing!!!! Unbelievable that a first black president dances on a civil rights issue. Unbelievable!!!!

Not unbelievable at all, really. It's called reality -- give it a try sometime.

If Obama came out forcefully for marriage equality, he would not stand a chance at a second term. Do I like this fact? No -- but it is a fact. While polls show "the public" has moved to the side of equality on this issue, it is "the voting public" that matters. Many of those who think equality is the right thing, are not overly passionate about it, but many of those who don't want equality ARE passionate about it. That passion spells votes. This is how these "wedge issues" work -- stoke the flames and get out the vote.

So, I'd rather Obama dance a little now, get re-elected and continue to do things that no one else has done for us. I suspect his "evolution" might get completed after November. Yes, it is politics, but that is, unfortunately, the reality that we live in.

I totally expect that once he's been elected and there is no more election 4 years later he will make gay marriage his prime focus. He pushed very hard to advance the civil rights of LGBT people no matter what some impatient assholes in our community might say he has done more for us than any president ever has. So let him play the political game he needs to to get re-elected and then judge him on his policy.

I also don't like this concept that Latino and African American voters are to blame -- there are plenty of white liberals (think union members, working class, etc.) that are uncomfy with the issue. When one sees a breakdown of views in a poll on this issue you can't assume those are all Democratic voters, there are plenty of urban non-Southern socially libertarian Republican voters who will tell pollsters that they approve of gay marriage ("plenty" meaning more than a few but not anywhere near a majority).

Seroconverted: Early 80sTested & confirmed what I already knew: early 90s

Current regimen: Atripla. Last regimen: Epzicom, Sustiva (since its inception with NO adverse side effects: no vivid dreams and NONE of the problems people who can't tolerate this drug may experience: color me lucky )Past regimensFun stuff (in the past): HAV/HBV, crypto, shingles, AIDS, PCP

Of course Obama is being political about it. Its anybody's call if he is unelectable had he matter of factly expressed his personal opinion that its a civil rights issue and spread the weight around all three branches - judicial, executive, legislative - to put authority behind the change to equal rights for gays and lesbians. I'm not convinced he would have to be the fall guy.

There are left leaders very much in touch with reality who are in favor of writing Freedom to Marry into the Democratic Platform.

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“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Of course Obama is being political about it. Its anybody's call if he is unelectable had he matter of factly expressed his personal opinion that its a civil rights issue and spread the weight around all three branches - judicial, executive, legislative - to put authority behind the change to equal rights for gays and lesbians. I'm not convinced he would have to be the fall guy.

There are left leaders very much in touch with reality who are in favor of writing Freedom to Marry into the Democratic Platform.

Perhaps you've been away from the U.S. for too long -- marriage equality fails virtually everytime that it is put up for a vote (here's hoping NC bucks that trend). Obama coming out as for marriage equality would doom his chances at reelection. You can't "spread it around" -- no member of the judiciary or legislative branches has to face the full American electorate. People against equality are far more passionate and likely to vote due to this issue than the folks who are for it, as a concept. The leaders who are currently pushing for marriage equality, for the most part, feel safe in their voter's eyes. That is the reality here -- we may not like it, we may wish it were different, but it IS the reality. I have faith that it will change over time, but that time ain't now.

During my recent ADAP recertification, I asked the clerk... How would a marriage affect my benefits?

Since I am disabled with AIDS, my Medicare Parts A, B, and D will continue to be paid as will my Social Security Disability for life...

ADAP, Medi-Cal and the other insurances which pay over $36,000.00 per year would be calculated on joint income, so I would lose some healthcare and all of my medications. A big annual cost for a marriage license. Have the best dayMichael

During my recent ADAP recertification, I asked the clerk... How would a marriage affect my benefits?

Since I am disabled with AIDS, my Medicare Parts A, B, and D will continue to be paid as will my Social Security Disability for life...

ADAP, Medi-Cal and the other insurances which pay over $36,000.00 per year would be calculated on joint income, so I would lose some healthcare and all of my medications. A big annual cost for a marriage license. Have the best dayMichael

Yes, for some marriage has some "costs" -- You do not HAVE to get married -- but you should have the option.

For me, my taxes would go down substantially by filing jointly. I'd save on legal expenses for all the documents that I have to have and maintain to just hope no one in my family would try to step in and take things from Sid -- possessions or the power to make decisions for me, if needed. The peace of mind that would come from being treated equally is beyond measure, but most of all, having my life being treated equally with others is the goal.

And for those who think Obama wouldn't pay at the polls if he came out for us now -- just read what has happened in NC and you'll see how very naive you are. Another sad day for equality.

I watched on Sunday as Biden spoke and I'm going to give the White House team the credit for being brilliant and concerted about what was said and the subsequent faux damage control.

Leno just joked as I'm writing -- "Biden says he's for same sex marriage. Obama's never endorsed it, but he IS considering Gay Secret Service men!"

Back to the topic...I could be completely wrong, but I think it was orchestrated to leak a position, to those who need to and want to hear, then blame it on the bumbler, as if he went rogue for a moment. But now it's out there, the VP says it's okay and he's friends with the P so they probably both think it's okay. Right? Right. Just get him the second term and we'll see if he makes good on his thinking.

I should clarify I don't think he's a bumbler, but Biden's been characterized by some as such. He's a seasoned attorney and some of the challenges he's faced personally lead me to believe that he was a party to the party's partying on this one as a way to help get the job done. I find it also interesting that they got it out and aired early in the campaign not two weeks before ballot casting.

Yes, for some marriage has some "costs" -- You do not HAVE to get married -- but you should have the option.

I should have the option... Having often said, "I deserve the right to marry at the same drive-thru wedding chapel my brother and sister used in Lovelock Nevada on Valentines day." BTW, my brother and sister did not marry each other, it was his third marriage of 3 and her second marriage of 3.

Thinking also of defense of marriage... Millions of dollars were spent in California, out of Utah to promote and influence California voters against same-sex marriage.

Presently, the Utah Tourism Bureau is spending big bucks in California TV advertising to lure California families to Utah for vacations. The families represented in the advertising are traditional families with a man and a woman, with children. Have the best dayMichael

David Barton, among others, was invited by John Bohner to Statuary Hall today for a prayer event. If republicans would invite this man to our Capital, I can't imagine ever getting them to even have a moment of personal reflection on the injustice of denying rights. By inviting this man to the Capital, that obviously means they don't have a problem with what he said. If this kind of speech is okay to them, then it really shows their true colors. I do realize many Dem voters vote against marriage equality, too. Those are the ones who are really conservative, but for whatever reason identify as dems.

David Barton said, "There's a passage that I love in Romans 1 - I don't love what the topic is - but it talks about homosexuality and it says that they will receive in their bodies the penalties of their behavior. And the Bible again, it's right every time, and studies keep proving that and that's why AIDS has been something they haven't discovered a cure for or a vaccine for, because it's the fastest self-mutating virus known to mankind. Every time they just about get a vaccine discovered for it, it transmutes into something new and they have to start over again. And that goes to what God says, hey you're going to bear in your body the consequences of this homosexual behavior."

Can you imagine someone being invited to the Capital who said the same thing about breast cancer, down-syndrome, or some other disease? I don't think even repubs would want to be associated with someone who made a statement like this about any other disease. But saying this about homosexuals is acceptable. It's just based on Barton's religious views after all, and you can't argue with ones religious views. So, this is what proponents for marriage equality are up against. Yes, many vote against gays out of prejudice and/or fear of change, and not based on religious views. If I were a betting man, I would say the majority of people who vote against gay rights do so based on religious views. And, I would bet many of those believe AIDS is God's punishment.

President Obama issued a statement weeks ago saying that he was opposed to Amendment 1. But at a moment as crucial as this, that wasn’t enough, either. Rather than using every opportunity to explain something that made a lot of sense (a “no” vote on Amendment 1), his proxies were out reciting an argument that made no sense at all (why what Biden said was just like what Obama had always said, and that both were for equal rights but not for gay marriage). The Obama campaign clearly believes that it needs North Carolina in November; he has visited the state repeatedly, and it is the site of this year's Democratic National Convention. Another trip was briefly scheduled for Tuesday. It was cancelled. (The White House told reporters that this was due to an “internal miscommunication” about the schedule.)

Perhaps there was a fear that Obama would do more harm than good, by galvanizing Amendment 1’s supporters. That sort of speculation is hard to tease out, given how motivated those forces already were, the role of the black community, and the possible effect of having the President just explain what was in the Amendment. And North Carolina is, again, a state the President hopes to win; how harmful could his presence be?

The larger rationale, of course, is that same-sex marriage is much too toxic politically for him—even now—and that if the President wants to be President next year he has to stay away. The corollary is a sense that waiting it out is good enough, because public opinion on same-sex marriage is changing so quickly that the problem will take care of itself; we will wake up one morning, society will have reached a consensus, and barriers will fall down, without anyone losing an electoral vote.

It is true that there is a tide in public opinion, and it is moving toward a general acceptance of same-sex marriage. A recent poll found that a narrow majority of Americans already support it. But that does not mean that you can just step aside and let the waves roll, watching appreciatively from some safe distance, checking, every now and then, to see if anyone would notice if you inched forward. If there is a lesson in the North Carolina vote, it is that complacency on this issue is not a victimless stance. Not all of the movement on gay marriage has been forward progress. There are families whose lives will now get worse. They, and we, have arrived at a moment when politicians—including the President—need to say what they believe, what risks they are willing to take, and what, in the end, is worth fighting for.

I do agree that Obama shouldn't throw away his electability if that is the case. However I do think this is all the result of the Dems letting the far right AND the center right set the terms of all debate. Since, as everyone knows, the truth is the population is the exact opposite of the votes.

Also, it is a very bitter pill that our first black president must dance on a blatently clear civil rights issue. A. very. bitter. pill.

Because the right WILL take way even more of our civil rights, and it will cost us.

Logged

“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Obama would not have made a difference. The vote wasn't even close and I knew it wouldn't be. The problem is the Christians. They are the ones who organized this entire hateful agenda. As the head of Vote For Marriage NC stated "the point -- the whole point -- is simply that you don't rewrite the nature of God's design for marriage based on the demands of a group of adults." That is their argument- our deity says you can't do it, so you can't. This is the land of "God said it, I believe it and that settles it."

Here is the map of how the vote went. My own county voted to pass the amendment-- thanks neighbors! I submit this map as objective evidence that I am surrounded by ignorant assholes.

My parents didn't marry until I was 17 yrs. old and outta the house, and yes I was born outta wedlock if you must know and both bob & I would loosea lotta benefits we normally wouldn't get being married and disabled...

So we look at it this way, we might as well say were married after 20 yrs. so we don't need any paper that says we are, as we don't have anything to prove to anyone, but ourselves, we love each other and that's good enough for the both of us, for the rest of our life

for those of you that want to get married, I think you should be allowed to do so, and to be as miserable as any other married couple for the rest of your natural LIFE

« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 10:01:17 AM by denb45 »

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"it's so nice to be insane, cause no-one ask you to explain" Helen Reddy cc 1974

WOW! I am shocked. I really didn't think this would come until after a second term. Look, I've always had admiration for him and the things he's done, but I felt that especially the first black president should speak out against inequality, regardless of the consequences.

After having the shrub propose a constitutional amendment to ban same sex marriage, this is incredible news. I haven't felt this proud to be an American in a long time. I sure hope you folks work hard to keep him.

I just participated in a brief online poll attached to an article featuring Obama's newly announced position. Hurray. May the lead hold and ideally grow between now and November. Joe, please pencil in a visit to celebrate in Q4.

Results Total of 21,521 votes46.7%What a fantastic way to energize the base and recapture the 'yes we can' attitude of '08. It will help.10,057 votes43.9%He's creating a rift with socially-conservative Democrats and independents. It will hurt.9,443 votes9.4%I don't know. I'd like to see some post-announcement polling.2,021 votes

Hey I don't deny the political risk. But do honor the spine it took to say the right thing. This is what we want more dems to do more often. Because the republican bullies are legislating in ways the hurt people AND in ways that encourage the population to debate on terms that are not reasonable, nor many times constitutional. Its bullies who want to remove a woman's right to choose. Who want people to suffer and die because they don't have insurance. Who want gays and lesbians, who are everyone's brothers, sisters, sons, daughters, mothers and fathers, to have seperate and unequal rights.

Logged

“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Obama would not have made a difference. The vote wasn't even close and I knew it wouldn't be. The problem is the Christians. They are the ones who organized this entire hateful agenda. As the head of Vote For Marriage NC stated "the point -- the whole point -- is simply that you don't rewrite the nature of God's design for marriage based on the demands of a group of adults." That is their argument- our deity says you can't do it, so you can't. This is the land of "God said it, I believe it and that settles it."

Here is the map of how the vote went. My own county voted to pass the amendment-- thanks neighbors! I submit this map as objective evidence that I am surrounded by ignorant assholes.

gso, i don't know you well, but i know you to be an intelligent man, i won't argue the way you feel.

i only want to say, your comment hurts me

please do not think all christians feel this way.

I can only assume the reason my comments hurt is because they are truthful.

I know all Christians are not homophobic morons but the reality is Christians were the group that pushed this amendment. Libertarian Republicans were against the amendment. The NAACP, lead by Rev. William Barber, was against it. The Jewish community came out against it. The more progressive Christian churches were against it. Humanists and atheist were against it.

Yet in every ad I saw or heard for the amendment there was a Christian reference. There were churches, in blatant violation of their tax-exempt status, telling their membership to vote for the amendment. People in NC did not view this in terms of Democrat/Republican they viewed it as a moral issue. Billy Graham, who is generally beloved, often bipartisan, and tends to avoid politics, took out a full page ad: "The Bible is clear — God's definition of marriage is between a man and a woman. I want to urge my fellow North Carolinians to vote FOR the marriage amendment on Tuesday, May 8." I am not exaggerating when I say that for many people Billy Graham speaking out to vote for the amendment was all they needed to hear.

Democratic consultant Gary Pearce sees another key fault line as decisive: faith. While the Christian right isn't as noticeable in North Carolina as it is in other states, it's easy for outsiders to underestimate its strength. As he wrote before the vote:

If you live in a city, you might miss [the influence of evangelical Christians]. And it's not that opponents of the amendment aren't religious. Some surely aren't "churched," but those who go to church tend toward a belief system that emphasizes fairness and tolerance. "Fundamentalists" care more about order, tradition and morality. This moral conservatism runs deep in North Carolina's political DNA. You have to understand that to understand what's apparently about to happen.

If you lived in NC you might more clearly understand the pervasive Christian influence and how it had everything to do with this amendment passing.

ABC News poll on marriage equality. Most polls now show a majority, albeit not a large majority, now feel gays should have equal marriage rights. These results are based on age and race. From these results, you do see how this is very much a generational issue. And, you can't ignore that views are different based on race. This will eventually make it to the Supreme Court. I just hope they make the right decision, and we don't have to wait another 10-20 years for enough support to get lawmakers to make the change.

Mittens is too funny. Of course, he lies about his record on this issue. He boasted in 1994 all the things he would do for gay equality. Today, when asked, he said he's had the same view since...then it seemed like he was going to say all his life, but said since he began running for president. That just strikes me so funny. I often wonder whether he knows he has so many conflicting views and statements, or believes what he says is how he always believed. The man has no convictions or deeply held beliefs, and will say whatever he feels is best at the time.

Which is related to education levels and income, not skin pigment Theodore. Unless you're a KKK member I suppose.

Actually, no.

It has more to do with religion than with education or income. There's also a fair amount of resentment amongst the black community when you compare their civil rights struggle with ours. The fact that the president now openly supports gay marriage may sway some gay or black voters, but this is a wedge issue and the republicans will attempt to use it.

NOM hoped to recruit African American leaders for its campaign and then to provoke gay activists into overreaching and calling those leaders bigots. That's sort of what happened in North Carolina. NOM funneled lots of money to black churches, whose prominent ministers became leading voices for the passage of Amendment 1. One of the loudest voices came in the form of Patrick Wooden, a notoriously homophobic minister of a 3,000-member black church in Raleigh. (Wooden is obsessed with anal sex and has given some eye-popping interviews on the subject.)

Black voters indeed came out in favor of the anti-gay-marriage amendment, but according to one poll, their support for it actually fell by 10 points, to 51 percent, in the last month of the campaign. This was a sign, perhaps, that the anti-gay forces’ campaign to enlist them might not be entirely successful in the long run. Sharon Lettman-Hicks, a gay activist and executive director of the National Black Justice Coalition, told the Atlantic recently that while "some black clergy have been pulled into this debate, our black churches are smarter than that. They won't simply be used as pawns to push NOM's hate."

It has more to do with religion than with education or income. There's also a fair amount of resentment amongst the black community when you compare their civil rights struggle with ours. The fact that the president now openly supports gay marriage may sway some gay or black voters, but this is a wedge issue and the republicans will attempt to use it.

When the last ballots were tallied and the final precinct results came in, Greensboro stood alone.

There at the center of Guilford County. An urban island of opposition in a sea of rural Amendment One supporters.

Nearly every precinct within the city voted against the so-called marriage amendment.

Voters statewide approved it by a wide margin. But in Guilford County, the amendment passed by just 72 votes as of Tuesday night when the vote count was still unofficial. ...

The northwestern Greensboro precinct (where I live) has nearly an equal number of registered Democrats and Republicans, as well as a healthy number of unaffiliated voters. The voters are mostly white.

With 859 people voting, the amendment failed by 129 votes.

“I was surprised by the outcome. I just did not think in this precinct the amendment would fail because of the registration numbers,” he said.

Party affiliation did not appear to dictate how a person voted on this issue, when Tuesday’s results were compared with the most recent registration statistics.

“It didn’t necessarily follow party lines. Not all Republicans voted for it, and vice versa,” said Omar Ali, a associate professor at UNCG and political analyst. “The political parties don’t capture the diversity of Americans.”

The amendment passed in some of Greensboro’s majority black precincts, including three in northeast Greensboro and Precinct G52, on the southern side of town. That didn’t appear to be a trend citywide.

Klase said she would like to study the votes in those precincts, given that local African American churches were on both sides of the amendment issue.

“You had one African American minister supporting the amendment, and the church next door opposing,” Klase said.