Next time someone is coming around saying he admitted he knew Benetton was cheating I will clap in the face. Questions about the source of this rumor nobody answered yet. I am still waiting BoschKurve.

Next time someone is coming around saying he admitted he knew Benetton was cheating I will clap in the face. Questions about the source of this rumor nobody answered yet. I am still waiting BoschKurve.

Let me do this for you.

...about his reputation as "Schummel Schumi" ("cheating schuey"We never cheated at any time, it is just not true. You have to take it as normal, that some people want to spin it that way. That´s a part of the relentless F1-world and its dog-eat-dog mentality. I want to point out, that this (probably referring to the cheating allegations again) has nothing to do with me und i´m also not happy about that.

...about his reputation as "Schummel Schumi" ("cheating schuey"We never cheated at any time, it is just not true. You have to take it as normal, that some people want to spin it that way. That´s a part of the relentless F1-world and its dog-eat-dog mentality. I want to point out, that this (probably referring to the cheating allegations again) has nothing to do with me und i´m also not happy about that.

Sounds good. I was too lazy to translate it into proper english. I admit ;)

When he said "we" never cheated at anytime, is he just being a racing driver using the term "we" when actually meant "I", or is he saying that he and the team as a whole never cheated? If it's the former, I don't really believe him but I can keep an open mind about the possibility of him not knowing about Option 13 and never activated it but if it's the latter, then I'd say it's 100% BS.

When he said "we" never cheated at anytime, is he just being a racing driver using the term "we" when actually meant "I", or is he saying that he and the team as a whole never cheated? If it's the former, I don't really believe him but I can keep an open mind about the possibility of him not knowing about Option 13 and never activated it but if it's the latter, then I'd say it's 100% BS.

When a 1994 Benetton was sold on eBay a couple of years back, this debate surfaced and no explanation was ever made as to how or why TC was fitted to the car. It would have been an expensive addition to add to a collectors car post 1994, so we assume it was always there.

When a 1994 Benetton was sold on eBay a couple of years back, this debate surfaced and no explanation was ever made as to how or why TC was fitted to the car. It would have been an expensive addition to add to a collectors car post 1994, so we assume it was always there.

It's not realistic to believe that the ebay Benetton was sold with its original electronics. I'd dare say it's not even very common to include electronics when modern F1 cars are being sold.

When a 1994 Benetton was sold on eBay a couple of years back, this debate surfaced and no explanation was ever made as to how or why TC was fitted to the car. It would have been an expensive addition to add to a collectors car post 1994, so we assume it was always there.

It was known at the tme. The official explanation was that TC was so deeply integrated with the system it was impossible to delete it, but it was never used in 1994. Smells like BS to me but it was good enough for FIA.

It's not realistic to believe that the ebay Benetton was sold with its original electronics. I'd dare say it's not even very common to include electronics when modern F1 cars are being sold.

I seem to remember the listing advertised it as totally authentic right down to the electronics. A major publication discussed it as an interest story but considering this car was sold 15 or so years after it was used, I doubt they would be too worried about giving any secrets away through their coding.

I saw ebay ads which sells one Benetton formula one car in question with the original traction control system.

Still that is not cheating, that is where the crux of the matter is, as there is no governing body which distinguished the engineering the the Benetton's car as illegal. What I, or other think, is not very important, that is what Michael Schmacher is saying.

I tend to agree personally that Michael Schmacher cheated all his 7 championship titles and that at the same time depresses me. The guy like him should have a bit of credit. But like you saw at Tour de France, it is all or nothing, and nothing will take every single thing away from us.
Now Max is gone, FLav is gone, Schumi will be gone so the game is set as long as I am concerned.

Over the years there are truckloads of people who have tried, but it has never ended up in any other way, than another subjective opinion. I do not know if there is skeleton in the closet that perhaps Max Mosley can dig out from his private safe, nor I am not sure if some disgruntled former employee can come clean and submit credible evidence on his own, but fact remains, it is era that has past, and if Schumacher say today they (or he personally?) has not cheated, we could accept his word on that subject as basic courtesy to a fellow man. If one insists on defaming his character, one should then put down something on the table other than just yet another opinion based on someone else’s thoughts.

No amount of reading tea leaves, smelling smoke of burning tires, hearing sounds of engines and day-dreaming will prove otherwise. Benetton was under attack because of their success, as today are RBR, McLaren, Lotus, Ferrari, you name it. They all taking their turns, but at the end, teams are running on the edge, and under not well defined specs, edges can and are being explored occasionally to the full extent of intrinsic ambiguity of the relevant specification. That’s not illegal last time I look.

I can´t believe how many people give some Ebay-info-list so much credit. Even air guitars were sold at ebay.;) Furthermore i don´t think Benetton would hand over some guy a Benetton with illegal software/devices after all that controversies.

The next thing is a simple fact, not a theory or anything else - and i repeat this as some posts here still contained some misinformation after so many years:FIA didn´t find a traction control device. They found an "Option 13", which could potentially used as a launch control. However MSC´s starts varied between great, mediocre and poor. So for me there wasn´t a clear indication that MSC used that tool - of course everbody is free to make up his own mind about that....

All the people in place at Benetton in 1994 were just the people you'd want in place if you were planning on circumventing the rulebook.

Flavio being one, and the other being Cheating Tom Walkinshaw.

I believe the traction control on the B-194 was only used during races and not qualifying. At the end of the race there would have probably been some quick sequence for Michael to run through to wipe out the trace of the codes in the ECU. People only reported hearing funny noises from Michael's car during the race...never in qualifying.

This corpse have been dug out and buried again so many times that it really stinks of necromancy.

True but it's good to hear Schumacher himself deny once again these silly allegations.

Also it's nice to think back of that emotional 1994 season, a season that started so tragically and went into a turbulent summer with FIA hearings, penalties etc... only for Michael to triumph in the end against all odds (DNSs and DQs), helped by Damon's ill judged overtaking maneuver in Australia.

All the people in place at Benetton in 1994 were just the people you'd want in place if you were planning on circumventing the rulebook.

Flavio being one, and the other being Cheating Tom Walkinshaw.

I believe the traction control on the B-194 was only used during races and not qualifying. At the end of the race there would have probably been some quick sequence for Michael to run through to wipe out the trace of the codes in the ECU. People only reported hearing funny noises from Michael's car during the race...never in qualifying.

Interesting that Benetton was intelligent enough to wipe out all evidence of a TC during races, but too stupid to delete "Option 13" even when they had almost two month to do that...

It´s also funny that you now claim, Benetton only used TC in the races, after i showed you a clip of Monaco-Qualifying recently, in which one can witness power-oversteer during MSC´s hotlap.

btw. In 93 the Benetton-TC didn´t operate with misfire. So i wonder what one could hear, if they would´ve contiued to use it in 1994.

Still that is not cheating, that is where the crux of the matter is, as there is no governing body which distinguished the engineering the the Benetton's car as illegal. What I, or other think, is not very important, that is what Michael Schmacher is saying.

Spot on, one just has to look at the DD row to realise that it's not just a question of teams knowing how to cheat. It's how good the FIA is at getting them. The FIA is still relying on the old «Just shout wolf!» method. When was the last time a car entered inspection and the FIA went «aha! we found a new suspicious gadget!», you could probably stick a ready to use torpedo in the car and still pass the inspection if you mounted it properly.

I tend to agree personally that Michael Schmacher cheated all his 7 championship titles and that at the same time depresses me. The guy like him should have a bit of credit. But like you saw at Tour de France, it is all or nothing, and nothing will take every single thing away from us.Now Max is gone, FLav is gone, Schumi will be gone so the game is set as long as I am concerned.

This is not exactly the same scenario.Actually, it seems to be the same scenario, but the Schumacher one still lacks proper evidence and witnesses. But, and I was a fan of Hill, if anything of worth was around im sure it would have been brought foward by now.

The only way they cheated was they had the best driver around in the best car around, same goes for his Ferrari years. So yeah, bann him for being OP as they say in videogame language.

iirc, there was an argument that it had been approved by the manufacturer for use by another team (Larousse?) connected to Benneton (via Tom Walkinshaw? or using the same engine?) in some way.

There were big question marks over whether the approval was valid, given it came from the manufacturer rather than the FIA, and whether an approval to one team would mean an approval to another. In the end, I believe those arguments did not play out (so were never resolved) as Benetton admitted guilt but avoided punishment on the "junior member of staff acting alone" defence.

Over the years there are truckloads of people who have tried, but it has never ended up in any other way, than another subjective opinion. I do not know if there is skeleton in the closet that perhaps Max Mosley can dig out from his private safe, nor I am not sure if some disgruntled former employee can come clean and submit credible evidence on his own, but fact remains, it is era that has past, and if Schumacher say today they (or he personally?) has not cheated, we could accept his word on that subject as basic courtesy to a fellow man. If one insists on defaming his character, one should then put down something on the table other than just yet another opinion based on someone else’s thoughts.

I'm pretty sure that this kind of passage has been used in the defense of Lance Armstrong's career in the past as well. Michael has cheated in other parts of his F1 career, and denied it, so his word is not to be taken at face value.

The 1994 championship will always be a tainted one in the minds of a lot of F1 fans.

Interesting that Benetton was intelligent enough to wipe out all evidence of a TC during races, but too stupid to delete "Option 13" even when they had almost two month to do that...

It´s also funny that you now claim, Benetton only used TC in the races, after i showed you a clip of Monaco-Qualifying recently, in which one can witness power-oversteer during MSC´s hotlap.

btw. In 93 the Benetton-TC didn´t operate with misfire. So i wonder what one could hear, if they would´ve contiued to use it in 1994.

Well this is F1, a place where even the supposed smartest guys are prone to making pretty large errors. If something like Crashgate could happen under Flavio, I'm not sure why you are in denial over the likelihood of Benetton cheating out of the ass with traction control. They were already cheating with their fuel refueling rigs for most of the season till Hockenheim happened. Let's not forget that the only reason Flavio got in the trouble he did with Renault was because the Piquets started singing to anyone who would listen.

I really could care less about the 1993 season for these purposes. I also never made a claim they were using traction control during qualifying. You're welcome to go look through my posts, and I can guarantee you that you will find nothing of the sort. As I've said, the strange noises from Michael's car was only heard during races.

As said, some teams were screwing around with forms of traction control in 1994. Ferrari being one of them and they were told to shut it down quietly.

You forget there were serious commercial considerations in play with the German F1 fanbase, and Mosley had very good reason to want to see Schumacher win the 1994 title. That meant protecting Benetton at all costs since by proxy, anything that happened to them would negatively impact Schumacher.

You forget there were serious commercial considerations in play with the German F1 fanbase, and Mosley had very good reason to want to see Schumacher win the 1994 title. That meant protecting Benetton at all costs since by proxy, anything that happened to them would negatively impact Schumacher.

Makes no sense to take out my favorite driver three time (bans) if I want him to win in the end. This theory seems far from reality.

Well this is F1, a place where even the supposed smartest guys are prone to making pretty large errors. If something like Crashgate could happen under Flavio, I'm not sure why you are in denial over the likelihood of Benetton cheating out of the ass with traction control. They were already cheating with their fuel refueling rigs for most of the season till Hockenheim happened. Let's not forget that the only reason Flavio got in the trouble he did with Renault was because the Piquets started singing to anyone who would listen.

I really could care less about the 1993 season for these purposes. I also never made a claim they were using traction control during races. You're welcome to go look through my posts, and I can guarantee you that you will find nothing of the sort. As I've said, the strange noises from Michael's car was only heard during races.

As said, some teams were screwing around with forms of traction control in 1994. Ferrari being one of them and they were told to shut it down quietly.

You forget there were serious commercial considerations in play with the German F1 fanbase, and Mosley had very good reason to want to see Schumacher win the 1994 title. That meant protecting Benetton at all costs since by proxy, anything that happened to them would negatively impact Schumacher.

Very good post.

The only thing missing on the B194 was a gay computer voice and a flashing red light across the front of the nosecone.

Benetton were reported to the FIA by Charlie Whiting for suspected use of traction / launch control. A firm called LDRA investigated the source code of the B194 and found a launch control system which could either be activated externally by a laptop, or going through an elaborate series of controls and a hidden menu known as 'Option 13'. Benetton's defense was that the offending source code was too deeply embedded for it to be successfully removed, and that although the system existed, they never used it.

. In the end, I believe those arguments did not play out (so were never resolved) as Benetton admitted guilt but avoided punishment on the "junior member of staff acting alone" defence.

Yeah, supposedly the junior team member read a piece of how the rig works without one of its parts figured out that since it works it must be legal and removed one of the parts because fuel flew faster that way. He also didn't tell anyone. Sounds totally credible, yeah.

You forget there were serious commercial considerations in play with the German F1 fanbase, and Mosley had very good reason to want to see Schumacher win the 1994 title. That meant protecting Benetton at all costs since by proxy, anything that happened to them would negatively impact Schumacher.

LOL, oh is that why they gave him an absolutely absurd 2 race ban that year then? The championship shouldn't have even been close in Adelaide. That's what people forget.

People aren't going to stop beating this dead horse in a vain attempt to discredit the MS titles. It's pathetic really. They're not going anywhere.

Well this is F1, a place where even the supposed smartest guys are prone to making pretty large errors. If something like Crashgate could happen under Flavio, I'm not sure why you are in denial over the likelihood of Benetton cheating out of the ass with traction control. They were already cheating with their fuel refueling rigs for most of the season till Hockenheim happened. Let's not forget that the only reason Flavio got in the trouble he did with Renault was because the Piquets started singing to anyone who would listen.

Comparing that with Crashgate is talking about apples and oranges. The driver just started to talk. To be so smart to find a way to use and delete a TC, while driving, but simultaneuosly to be too stupid to delete an LC-code within 2 month time, is a whole different matter.For me the whole scenario has also little to do with the people involved. Instead my p.o.v. is based on, what the facts indicate for me.

I really could care less about the 1993 season for these purposes. I also never made a claim they were using traction control during races. You're welcome to go look through my posts, and I can guarantee you that you will find nothing of the sort. As I've said, the strange noises from Michael's car was only heard during races.

Well you even claimed that MSC admitted to have used TC in 1994. And is it a fact that the car made "strange noises"? Can you hear anything odd, when you watch the onboard footage? Who else besides Senna claimed, he heard something, because i only can remeber him saying something like that. What sounds does a TC do, when it´s not operating with misfires?

You forget there were serious commercial considerations in play with the German F1 fanbase, and Mosley had very good reason to want to see Schumacher win the 1994 title. That meant protecting Benetton at all costs since by proxy, anything that happened to them would negatively impact Schumacher.

If they were so interested to see MSC win the WDC, why did they impose so severe penalties on him throughout the season, which lowered his winning chances significantly?

All this traction control BS started after Senna was upset he was having his ass handed to him by Schumacher and needed an excuse. There was a new sheriff in town and Senna didn't want to admit it and his zombie fans don't now.

The championship shouldn't have even been close in Adelaide. That's what people forget.

There's 2 sides to this statement:

I would have loved to see Damon Hill take the title, come Adelaide, but the Williams driver only got to that point in the championship table, because of Schumacher's Silverstone disqualification and his 2-race ban late in the season. If those DQs hadn't happened, it's likely that Schumacher would've wrapped up the title at least 1 or 2 Grands Prix prior to the final race.

You could argue, though, that Schumacher's DQs weren't for nought. He and/or his team broke the rules, and he/they were punished. And because of that, Hill/Williams reigning the German in, in the WDC/WCC table, was just as right.

What happened, happened. And we all know that the 1994 title was Senna's. (Runs. Hides.)

If they were so interested to see MSC win the WDC, why did they impose so severe penalties on him throughout the season, which lowered his winning chances significantly?

Why Benetton (and by proxy Schumacher) were allowed to stay in the 1994 championship after almost incinerating a pit crew is beyond me and many others, I suspect. Oh yes, that's right, it's because they pleaded guilty to the offence and according to Max Mosley because they pleaded guilty, he (the FIA) couldn't punish them. How does that work?

Comparing that with Crashgate is talking about apples and oranges. The driver just started to talk. To be so smart to find a way to use and delete a TC, while driving, but simultaneuosly to be too stupid to delete an LC-code within 2 month time, is a whole different matter.For me the whole scenario has also little to do with the people involved. Instead my p.o.v. is based on, what the facts indicate for me.

The driver would not be responsible for deleting the LC-code and the FIA had a checksum for the code anyway, a sort of digital signature, which would have taken a lot of expensive work to replicate while also removing option 13.

LOL, oh is that why they gave him an absolutely absurd 2 race ban that year then? The championship shouldn't have even been close in Adelaide. That's what people forget.

I dunno, if Schumacher loses the F1 championship after a close fight at the last race of the year, that's not going to make his fans turn off F1 in disgust. They're going to come back next year.

Chucking Schumacher's team out of the world championship (which is what guilt for the Verstappen fire and in flagrant traction control use would've surely demanded) might've been different. Mosley was a politician, not a judge.

My personal opinion is that the FIA scrutineers were bamboozled by the master of getting-illegal-things-passed-as-legal, Tom Walkinshaw. If they'd hired the stewards from the Bathurst 1000 to go over the Benetton, it might've been a different story.

Why Benetton (and by proxy Schumacher) were allowed to stay in the 1994 championship after almost incinerating a pit crew is beyond me and many others, I suspect. Oh yes, that's right, it's because they pleaded guilty to the offence and according to Max Mosley because they pleaded guilty, he (the FIA) couldn't punish them. How does that work?

1st: Regarding the fuel rig stuff: I´m to lazy to write this whole stuff in my own words, but as i also read the book...here´s a post from another person about that topic:Further to this (apologies for the delay in getting back to you on this, believe it or not this is the 1st chance I've had to post on this thread again...better late than never), I've now looked further into what Steve Machett views RE; the 1994 Benetton fuel fire & here's the background surrounding the situation...Following the 1994 Hockenheim fuel fire there was an inspection by Intertechique & an acident investigation company (which was commissioned by Benetton). When they dismattled & measured the fuel rig, both companies concluded that the problem layed with the manufacting torrelances between the various compenents within the rig (lets call this report A). However when Intertechinque reported back to the FIA they decided to ignored report A & instead concluded that the most likely cause for the Hockenhiem fire was a foreign body (i.e. a bit of dirt/grit) entering into the rig which jammed on the fuel value (lets call this report B). Therefore implying that it was a direct result of Benetton removing an internal filter & not an intertechinque problem. Benetton only learnt that they were being blamed for the fuel fire on the Tuesday/Wednesday before the 1994 Hungarian GP.

Interestingly shortly before the 1994 Hungarian GP, Intertechique did change the suspect components which had been idenitfied in report A as the cause of the Hockenhiem fire. They did this for all fuel rigs in use up & down the Hungaroring pitlane (so not just Benetton's rigs). Read into that what you will.In the wake of the Hockenhiem fire & the subsquent FIA press release on the matter which concluded that the cause was the removal of the internal filter by Benetton. Benetton management had made no attempt to conceal the fact that they did removed the filter, they stated 'yes a filter had been removed, but only after the approval of an FIA offical'. Indeed it later came to light that the Larousse team had asked for and recieved the go-ahead to remove that exact same filter from their fuel rig equipment. In fact they were given drawings on how to remove it. Steve Matchett also says that he is convinced that the removal of that filter from the fuel rig had absolutuely nothing to do with the Hockenhiem fuel fire & points out that once in Budapest factors like...The displayed of concern still shown for all the mechanics welfare working in the pitlaneThe fitting of replacement parts by the rig manufacture (after the Hockenhiem fire)& The extra satefy equipment introduced by every other team as a result (irrespective of whether or not that particular team had removed the filter from their fuel rig)...convinced him that he wasn't alone in that view. It is also worth noting that Mclaren apparently experienced simliar fuel rig problems in 1994 pre-season testing & Mclaren hadn't touched the fuel rig filter. In that particular incident Mclaren were using water instead of Fuel so thankfully no injuries result. However when Bob Vasha (US commentator) interviewed Ron Dennis about the incident Bob noted that Ron's body languange suggested Mclaren were extermely worried over the safety of the fuel rigs system in Brazil 1994.

2nd: Yes i know the official reasons for the DQs and race bans thx.

But i also know the following:- Besides MSC also Mika Hakkinen overtook a Ferrari on the formation lap, but didn´t get a penalty- the time-penalty was invalid, because the stewards failed to impose it in the allowed time window. That and also the fact, that Benetton thought the time-penalty would just be added to his race-result (which was not unusal at that time, but still their own fault to assume that), lead to these bizarre negotiations between Benetton and the Stewards during the race. Dont´forget: The stewards eventually accepted to withdraw the black flag, so they at least thought, that Benetton had a point in that discussion.- despite MSC getting the black flag under controversial circumstances, FIA punished him for ignoring it. Fair enough. But two races? For comparison: Not too long before that Nigel Mansell received a legitimate black flag, ignored it and collided with race leader and championship contender Ayrton Senna in the process. He had to sit out for a single race.

The FIA just used the incident to make the WDC interesting again. Period.