In another thread we were discussing the GP2 champions and how the look quite strong (Hamilton, Rosberg, Hulkenberg, Maldanado, Grosjean and Glock) but which drivers have not completely shone in the lower formulas but stepped it up once they got to F1.

I am not refering to WDC winners as I don't think there are any, but maybe a race winner or just an impressive driver.

I know Kobayashi did not have a great record pre F1 and he has had a decent F1 career.

I know Kimi didn't have massive single seater experience prior to F1, but he did win a lot of what he entered. I'd still count him.

I'd say however the list of drivers that didn't perform in lower formulae but did in F1 compared to those that did perform well and either did or didn't in F1 is low because teams generally prefer signing drivers that look like they might score them points. Pay drivers are a different matter. One time only teams unlikely to score decent points signed them to make up the shortfall, now it seems outside the top 5-6 teams they need them just to survive (prior experience and success or otherwise).

_________________"We can not drive slower, just to make the races more exciting." Alain Prost

The problem is that to get a shot in F1 you can't be crap, no matter what a lot of people like to think, particularly with the lack of testing these days, you have to have shown potential at least. Quite simply you wouldn't get your super license otherwise. Anyway, a few that could fit the bill...

Kamui Kobayashi didn't do much in the lower formula, arguably only got his first F1 shot because he was Japanese, he's pretty damn good.

Maldonado, I know he did win GP2, and in fact won more races than anyone else has, but in a relatively week year, and in his 4th season. Most drivers don't stay in GP2 that long, they either progress to F1 earlier, or move off somewhere else, either Indycar, or away from open wheelers all together. I'm far from his biggest fan, but he's done surprisingly well considering his pedigree, well, when he's not using his car as an offensive weapon that is.

Damon Hill, admittedly he didn't even start racing until his mid 20's, and for that reason alone I consider his ability hugely underrated, but to say he hardly set the world alight through the lower formula would be the understatement of the century. Just go look up his record, it was pretty woeful. Having said that one of the main reasons for his lack of results was his total lack of money, he might have been a Hill, but he had it very tough through the ranks. Eventually he got a go testing for Williams at the ripe old age of 31, back when they were able to trial loads of youngsters, the name helped here a bit, and he impressed them mightily. He's generally regarded as having been pivotal in making the FW14b the crushingly effective tool it was. Not to mention then going on to win the title, and come runner up twice and 3rd once, and to win in a Jordan, and to nearly win in an Arrows. Incredibly impressive stuff for someone who literally did next to nothing in the lower formula. He was just fairy cakes hot in an F1 car.

Oh, Michael Schumacher. He didn't do an awful lot in the lower formula, admittedly most of what he did was fairly impressive, but the Mercedes driver development team, or what ever they called themselves back then, thought Frentzen was the one with the most talent, hence getting him into the Mercedes powered Sauber and not Schumacher. But Michael turned out a bit of all right in F1 cars didn't he?

There's bound to be others, but just off the top of my head, at this ungodly hour of the day, that'll do.

Formula One teams know that, just as in F1, teams in lower formula are affected just as much by budget. Teams with less money in GP2, '3, 3.5 etc all suffer in comparison to their rivals with a steadier income. Scouts are intelligent enough to look out for what a driver has achieved in their car and don't just look for the one that dominates.

Alonso only scored three times during his spell in F3000; a sixth, second and a victory in the final race (out of 10 races). But if you look at what his team-mates managed to achieve (A string of retirements and a couple of DNQs from Fabrice Walfisch and three mid-pack results ended by a podium at the final race from Marc Goossens), you see his performances relative to his team-mates.

Fangio himself was marred by a number of mechanical and driver failures during his little-recorded pre-war races in South America, yet shone after a couple of years in Grand Prix cars. It's all about appreciating how much the driver has and how much s/he's exceeding expectations.

Sebastien Buemi did well considering his pre F1 record. Especially when you consider how high expectations were for Alguersuari after being the youngest British f3 champ ever.

In recent years it's really difficult to find someone who was absolutely useless in junior formulae only to turn it on in F1. Isn't Buemi the only driver in the last 20 odd years to have not won a title in anything before F1?

Sebastien Buemi did well considering his pre F1 record. Especially when you consider how high expectations were for Alguersuari after being the youngest British f3 champ ever.

In recent years it's really difficult to find someone who was absolutely useless in junior formulae only to turn it on in F1. Isn't Buemi the only driver in the last 20 odd years to have not won a title in anything before F1?

Button only won the British formula Ford title before F1, remember they had to change the rules so as he could get a super license. He had shown to be a bit of a special talent though, and that promise eventually shone out in F1. He took a while to find his feet, and made some, in hindsight, questionable decisions about which teams to drive for, but his F1 career's turned out pretty damn good.

I know Kimi didn't have massive single seater experience prior to F1, but he did win a lot of what he entered. I'd still count him.

I'd say however the list of drivers that didn't perform in lower formulae but did in F1 compared to those that did perform well and either did or didn't in F1 is low because teams generally prefer signing drivers that look like they might score them points. Pay drivers are a different matter. One time only teams unlikely to score decent points signed them to make up the shortfall, now it seems outside the top 5-6 teams they need them just to survive (prior experience and success or otherwise).

Oh, Michael Schumacher. He didn't do an awful lot in the lower formula, admittedly most of what he did was fairly impressive, but the Mercedes driver development team, or what ever they called themselves back then, thought Frentzen was the one with the most talent, hence getting him into the Mercedes powered Sauber and not Schumacher. But Michael turned out a bit of all right in F1 cars didn't he?

Schumacher trashed the field in Formula König, and had also been the winner or the European Karting CHampionship. He then had a tumultous truel against Frentzen and Wendlinger in German F3, although Wendlinger pipped him and Frentzen by one point, it is also true that they had like twice as much car racing experience as the young Schumacher at that time (Schumacher was only in his second year). The next year Schumacher did win German F3 and Macau (famous crash against Hakkinen), and he also drove a few other things. He drove one Formula 3000 race at Suzuka, coming 2nd after driving through the field, and drove a little DTM, qualifying higher than expected and crashing into one of the championship contenders at the first corner! Typical Schumacher!

He also drove alongside Frentzen and Wendlinger in Sportscars, the Sauber Merc C9 and the like. Initially Frentzen was the quickest of the three (he was more experienced than Schumacher), but over time Schumacher came to be regarded as the hottest property. He raced at Le Mans 1991 and set the fastest lap, impressing pretty much everyone (except Derek Warwick).

Oh, Michael Schumacher. He didn't do an awful lot in the lower formula, admittedly most of what he did was fairly impressive, but the Mercedes driver development team, or what ever they called themselves back then, thought Frentzen was the one with the most talent, hence getting him into the Mercedes powered Sauber and not Schumacher. But Michael turned out a bit of all right in F1 cars didn't he?

Schumacher trashed the field in Formula König, and had also been the winner or the European Karting CHampionship. He then had a tumultous truel against Frentzen and Wendlinger in German F3, although Wendlinger pipped him and Frentzen by one point, it is also true that they had like twice as much car racing experience as the young Schumacher at that time (Schumacher was only in his second year). The next year Schumacher did win German F3 and Macau (famous crash against Hakkinen), and he also drove a few other things. He drove one Formula 3000 race at Suzuka, coming 2nd after driving through the field, and drove a little DTM, qualifying higher than expected and crashing into one of the championship contenders at the first corner! Typical Schumacher!

He also drove alongside Frentzen and Wendlinger in Sportscars, the Sauber Merc C9 and the like. Initially Frentzen was the quickest of the three (he was more experienced than Schumacher), but over time Schumacher came to be regarded as the hottest property. He raced at Le Mans 1991 and set the fastest lap, impressing pretty much everyone (except Derek Warwick).

Pretty impressive overall you would say.

Yes, I know, hence me saying that most of the comparatively little that he did do was fairly impressive. Indeed, the team and other drivers in sporstcars couldn't understand how he was able to go so quickly whilst using so little fuel, back in the days before proper data loggers remember. T

he point I was trying to make was that you could argue that his ability and success behind the wheel of an F1 car was wildly disproportionate to his earlier exploits, and that he was clearly better in an F1 car than someone who their development team thought was better than him judging from their achievements through the lower formula. Thus could fit with the OP perfectly.

He raced at Le Mans 1991 and set the fastest lap, impressing pretty much everyone (except Derek Warwick).

Ah, you do the man no justice! You need to remind us that he set the fastest lap of the race during the night.

Fastest laps are often set during the night in endurance races. It's colder so the tyres hold up better through the stint, as the fuel burns off and the car gets lighter, it's colder so the air is denser resulting in the engine producing slightly more power, and also the aero slightly more downforce (I know also slightly more drag, but it balances out to more of an advantage than a disadvantage, so long as you know where you're going!).

Vettel never won many lower formulas either. He came second best to the likes of Hamilton and Di Resta in both of his formula 3 seasons.

Formula BMW ADAC doesn't count as a junior formula?

huggybear wrote:

Sebastien Buemi did well considering his pre F1 record. Especially when you consider how high expectations were for Alguersuari after being the youngest British f3 champ ever.

In recent years it's really difficult to find someone who was absolutely useless in junior formulae only to turn it on in F1. Isn't Buemi the only driver in the last 20 odd years to have not won a title in anything before F1?

He raced at Le Mans 1991 and set the fastest lap, impressing pretty much everyone (except Derek Warwick).

Ah, you do the man no justice! You need to remind us that he set the fastest lap of the race during the night.

Fastest laps are often set during the night in endurance races. It's colder so the tyres hold up better through the stint, as the fuel burns off and the car gets lighter, it's colder so the air is denser resulting in the engine producing slightly more power, and also the aero slightly more downforce (I know also slightly more drag, but it balances out to more of an advantage than a disadvantage, so long as you know where you're going!).

Yeah, interesting stuff, I actually discovered this when playing F1 2012, I was sooo much faster in a straight line at Silverstone or Spa compared to Bahrain or Malaysia.

I think sometimes drivers may go to F1 before they can compete in GP2 etc. I think Vettel went straight to F1. GP2 or other lower formulas titles have some value, but some exceptionally good drivers may just skip it in favor to F1 and as a result their pre F1 careers aren't impressive. Also F1 teams want good F1 drivers, not good Formula 3.5 or GP2 drivers.

_________________Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.Mark Twain

I think sometimes drivers may go to F1 before they can compete in GP2 etc. I think Vettel went straight to F1. GP2 or other lower formulas titles have some value, but some exceptionally good drivers may just skip it in favor to F1 and as a result their pre F1 careers aren't impressive. Also F1 teams want good F1 drivers, not good Formula 3.5 or GP2 drivers.

That is becasue Red Bull generally put there drivers through that channel and tend not to place them in GP2. No matter in what you compete you should be near the top if you want to impress, F3, F2, GP3, facing milk floats.

The bolded part is obvious, but how do you decide who to give a test day to.

I think sometimes drivers may go to F1 before they can compete in GP2 etc. I think Vettel went straight to F1. GP2 or other lower formulas titles have some value, but some exceptionally good drivers may just skip it in favor to F1 and as a result their pre F1 careers aren't impressive. Also F1 teams want good F1 drivers, not good Formula 3.5 or GP2 drivers.

only one F3000/GP2 champion has ever gone on to win the F1 championship and very few have won races in F1.

Oh, Michael Schumacher. He didn't do an awful lot in the lower formula, admittedly most of what he did was fairly impressive, but the Mercedes driver development team, or what ever they called themselves back then, thought Frentzen was the one with the most talent, hence getting him into the Mercedes powered Sauber and not Schumacher. But Michael turned out a bit of all right in F1 cars didn't he?

Schumacher trashed the field in Formula König, and had also been the winner or the European Karting CHampionship. He then had a tumultous truel against Frentzen and Wendlinger in German F3, although Wendlinger pipped him and Frentzen by one point, it is also true that they had like twice as much car racing experience as the young Schumacher at that time (Schumacher was only in his second year). The next year Schumacher did win German F3 and Macau (famous crash against Hakkinen), and he also drove a few other things. He drove one Formula 3000 race at Suzuka, coming 2nd after driving through the field, and drove a little DTM, qualifying higher than expected and crashing into one of the championship contenders at the first corner! Typical Schumacher!

He also drove alongside Frentzen and Wendlinger in Sportscars, the Sauber Merc C9 and the like. Initially Frentzen was the quickest of the three (he was more experienced than Schumacher), but over time Schumacher came to be regarded as the hottest property. He raced at Le Mans 1991 and set the fastest lap, impressing pretty much everyone (except Derek Warwick).

Pretty impressive overall you would say.

Yes, I know, hence me saying that most of the comparatively little that he did do was fairly impressive. Indeed, the team and other drivers in sporstcars couldn't understand how he was able to go so quickly whilst using so little fuel, back in the days before proper data loggers remember. T

he point I was trying to make was that you could argue that his ability and success behind the wheel of an F1 car was wildly disproportionate to his earlier exploits, and that he was clearly better in an F1 car than someone who their development team thought was better than him judging from their achievements through the lower formula. Thus could fit with the OP perfectly.

Very clever! I never would've thought to mention MS here but with that reasoning I can see why he'd be included. That said, I think the OP meant average, as in average for anybody, not average for Schumi.

_________________"No, there is no terrible way to win. There is only winning."Jean-Pierre Sarti

I think sometimes drivers may go to F1 before they can compete in GP2 etc. I think Vettel went straight to F1. GP2 or other lower formulas titles have some value, but some exceptionally good drivers may just skip it in favor to F1 and as a result their pre F1 careers aren't impressive. Also F1 teams want good F1 drivers, not good Formula 3.5 or GP2 drivers.

only one F3000/GP2 champion has ever gone on to win the F1 championship and very few have won races in F1.

I think sometimes drivers may go to F1 before they can compete in GP2 etc. I think Vettel went straight to F1. GP2 or other lower formulas titles have some value, but some exceptionally good drivers may just skip it in favor to F1 and as a result their pre F1 careers aren't impressive. Also F1 teams want good F1 drivers, not good Formula 3.5 or GP2 drivers.

only one F3000/GP2 champion has ever gone on to win the F1 championship and very few have won races in F1.

The GP2 champions, 3/7 have wons races with a further 2 coming close (Hulkenberg and Grosjean this year).

F3000/GP2 have had a combined total of 27 years as the established second tear of European single seaters. In that time Only 2 drivers have gone on to win more than 1 race in F1 and only 6 have gone on to win any races at all. I would say that was very low considering the prestige of the championships. I think probably because most of the top level drivers are picked up before they get a chance at the second tier.

F3000/GP2 have had a combined total of 27 years as the established second tear of European single seaters. In that time Only 2 drivers have gone on to win more than 1 race in F1 and only 6 have gone on to win any races at all. I would say that was very low considering the prestige of the championships. I think probably because most of the top level drivers are picked up before they get a chance at the second tier.

I think you should include the FR3.5 (formerly Nissan) too, as they're now established next to GP2 in that second tier.This adds Alonso as multiple WDC, and Kovalainen and Kubica as race winners.

_________________Supporting all drivers with surnames starting with "V".

Proud member of the "It's Toro Rosso, not Torro Rosso" action committee.

F3000/GP2 have had a combined total of 27 years as the established second tear of European single seaters. In that time Only 2 drivers have gone on to win more than 1 race in F1 and only 6 have gone on to win any races at all. I would say that was very low considering the prestige of the championships. I think probably because most of the top level drivers are picked up before they get a chance at the second tier.

I think you should include the FR3.5 (formerly Nissan) too, as they're now established next to GP2 in that second tier.This adds Alonso as multiple WDC, and Kovalainen and Kubica as race winners.

I would not include it as no driver wo win that tittle has gone on to compete in F1 since Kubica in 2005.

Niki Lauda won 3 world championships with a pre F1 career worse than Max Chilton!!!, he borrowed money to buy drives in F2 & F1 with March & BRM when both were not exactly race winners but showed enough for Enzo to take a punt, the rest is history

_________________Sebastien Vettel, the youngest driver ever to have the fastest car in F1 for four consecutive years

I would not include it as no driver wo win that tittle has gone on to compete in F1 since Kubica in 2005.

But that doesn't negate the fact it is a valid feeder series for F1?Ricciardo, Vergne, Pic, Vettel are the obvious graduates from recent years. Frijns is one to watch, Bianchi possibly too.

No but I would say a series where the champion is statistically unlikely to ever reach F1 can hardly be described as a primary feeder series on a level with GP2 or F3000 where the driver was/is extremely likely to get a shot at F1.

I would not include it as no driver wo win that tittle has gone on to compete in F1 since Kubica in 2005.

But that doesn't negate the fact it is a valid feeder series for F1?Ricciardo, Vergne, Pic, Vettel are the obvious graduates from recent years. Frijns is one to watch, Bianchi possibly too.

No but I would say a series where the champion is statistically unlikely to ever reach F1 can hardly be described as a primary feeder series on a level with GP2 or F3000 where the driver was/is extremely likely to get a shot at F1.

Well, Vettel probably would have been the champion if he hadn't been plucked away by Toro Rosso.And I have no doubt Frijns will get his shot in F1.

Feeder series aren't only about the champion either, they're used for spotting talent and for whatever reason it might not be the champion that moves on to F1.

GP2 has an obvious statistical advantage, but: Maldonado did 4 seasons in GP2 before going to F1 (with lots of dollars), Grosjean even went back to GP2 after having been in F1. You tend to not see that in FR3.5, it's 1 or 2 seasons, then off.

_________________Supporting all drivers with surnames starting with "V".

Proud member of the "It's Toro Rosso, not Torro Rosso" action committee.

I would not include it as no driver wo win that tittle has gone on to compete in F1 since Kubica in 2005.

But that doesn't negate the fact it is a valid feeder series for F1?Ricciardo, Vergne, Pic, Vettel are the obvious graduates from recent years. Frijns is one to watch, Bianchi possibly too.

No but I would say a series where the champion is statistically unlikely to ever reach F1 can hardly be described as a primary feeder series on a level with GP2 or F3000 where the driver was/is extremely likely to get a shot at F1.

Well, Vettel probably would have been the champion if he hadn't been plucked away by Toro Rosso.And I have no doubt Frijns will get his shot in F1.

Feeder series aren't only about the champion either, they're used for spotting talent and for whatever reason it might not be the champion that moves on to F1.

GP2 has an obvious statistical advantage, but: Maldonado did 4 seasons in GP2 before going to F1 (with lots of dollars), Grosjean even went back to GP2 after having been in F1. You tend to not see that in FR3.5, it's 1 or 2 seasons, then off.

This is my point. Sometimes the best drivers are picked before they can win a title, therefore title isn't as valuable as many think.

_________________Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.Mark Twain

I would not include it as no driver wo win that tittle has gone on to compete in F1 since Kubica in 2005.

But that doesn't negate the fact it is a valid feeder series for F1?Ricciardo, Vergne, Pic, Vettel are the obvious graduates from recent years. Frijns is one to watch, Bianchi possibly too.

No but I would say a series where the champion is statistically unlikely to ever reach F1 can hardly be described as a primary feeder series on a level with GP2 or F3000 where the driver was/is extremely likely to get a shot at F1.

Well, Vettel probably would have been the champion if he hadn't been plucked away by Toro Rosso.And I have no doubt Frijns will get his shot in F1.

Feeder series aren't only about the champion either, they're used for spotting talent and for whatever reason it might not be the champion that moves on to F1.

My point as well really. The best drivers are usually taken before they can achieve a lot high up the junior ranks. Therefore if they are given enough time to win the GP2 tittle they are probably not good enough to win the F1 tittle. GP2 has an obvious statistical advantage, but: Maldonado did 4 seasons in GP2 before going to F1 (with lots of dollars), Grosjean even went back to GP2 after having been in F1. You tend to not see that in FR3.5, it's 1 or 2 seasons, then off.

This is my point. Sometimes the best drivers are picked before they can win a title, therefore title isn't as valuable as many think.

^^^My point as well really. The best drivers are usually taken before they can achieve a lot high up the junior ranks. Therefore if they are given enough time to win the GP2 tittle they are probably not good enough to win the F1 tittle. Also take Red Bull out of the equation and every driver on the grid last year who debuted after the formation of GP2 has most recently driven in GP2 - with the exception of Paul Di Resta.

So that would sugest that if your a driver who is not on the Red Bull programme FR3.5 is a waste of time and money.

Niki Lauda won 3 world championships with a pre F1 career worse than Max Chilton!!!, he borrowed money to buy drives in F2 & F1 with March & BRM when both were not exactly race winners but showed enough for Enzo to take a punt, the rest is history

I think in those days money was even more of a factor than it is now in pre-F1. It sounds like Mansell, quite a bit later, had problems because the cars he drove were rubbish. But he got in a decent car in F1 after doing decent in testing, and showed people what he could do.