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Religious Objection

Should religious groups be granted an exemption from providing coverage for health care services they consider immoral or against their beliefs? Should they pay lower insurance premiums for coverage which excludes those services?

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@David: "The employers should have no more to do with the employee's health care decisions than they do with the employees auto insurance coverage."

You are absolutely right. In fact if one had to point to one item that caused the most damage to our health system my guess is that it would be the tax deduction for insurance being provided solely to employer. Simply getting rid of that and equalizing the tax deduction or giving none at all would have solved a myriad of our health care problems and we would be spending a lot less than we are today. That simple tax interference created tremendous market distortions.

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It's hard to believe that Justice Roberts fell for an activist agenda and his decision to affirm the legality of the individual mandate saved Obamacare. In addition, he basically saluted access to health care as a new item in the Bill of Rights. Talk about chutzpah. Activism and revisionism are alive and well. Obama is supposed to be an expert In constitutional law. What do you say to this twist of fate? We we being duped?

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Justice Roberts wanted to show how smart he was and he did. He demonstrated that he was good with the books but had no common sense when he overruled Congress that ObamaCare was not a tax. He was in Washington for too long and became spoiled just like milk left out of the refrigerator. He will forever carry that smell around with him.

It will be interesting and exciting watching the development of ObamaCare. It will not survive as it can't work. Thus what comes out from it will depend upon a very few intelligent people in Congress convincing the dolts to do the right thing.

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The Jewish Bible is not only relevant it is central to this argument. You pretend that the Catholic Church invented the Bible and brought enlightenment to the world. Enlightenment came despite the Church and because of creative people. The Bible was around long before the Church. It simply usurped ancient Jewish teachings, combined them with paganism, and out popped a cleverly constructed body of lunacy designed to fool the masses.

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Curtis wrote:"Michael, The Catholic Church is the oldest institution in the world. It was founded by Jesus Christ. It gave the world the Bible, and the university system which systematically trained the best minds in Europe for centuries. That is why the world has modern science."

" that is why Western Civilization went on to become the greatest civilization in human history."

Curtis, you now write: "Rob, you are the only one talking about the Jewish Bible. I'm talking about the Christian Bible which includes the Torah."

Why can't I be focused? Because of your own words. The Catholic Church is NOT the oldest institution in the world. It did NOT give the world the university system and it did not give the world the Bible. It gave the world the New Testament and that combined with the Old Testament is the Catholic Bible. It also wasn't the proximate cause for Western Civilization becoming the greatest civilization in human history. (greatest is controversial as well based upon what is or is not considered great)

Nonsense occurs when you make statements that are either inaccurate or poorly constructed. Choose your own poison, but don't blame me for correcting the facts that you got terribly wrong.

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Let me first state that your primary statement: "Michael, The Catholic Church is the oldest institution in the world." is absolutely wrong and demonstrates a very narrow appreciation of the world we live in and the contribution of all cultures present and past.

You use such general words it is hard to know what you are talking about. If we are talking about an institution of religion that still exists today I would guess Hinduism is the oldest. If you are talking about one that might be extinct then I don't think we know since writing has only been around for about 5,000 years so we have to rely upon other types of sources to make a guess about prehistoric religions. Also remember Confucianism that many do not consider a religion rather consider it a way of life and learning existed more than 1/2 millennia before Jesus was born.

Many ancient cultures developed institutions of learning, but we base much of our western civilization on the Greeks. The Platonic Academy occurred several hundred years before the birth of Jesus. Judeo christian theology has also had a strong influence on our culture, but there are and have been other great cultures of the world. Development of one civilization depends upon prior civilizations so to compare our civilization and technology today to ancient cultures is somewhat unfair. It is true we have the i phone, but if that is the sole way you compare civilizations you really ought to find something else to do.

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The ancient Israelites (Jews) had a comprehensive educational system. It was both religious and secular in nature and it was, in essence, a university system because of its emphasis on rigorous scholarship and competition. This period stretched from the First Temple, 900 BC, until long after their expulsion in 70 AD and throughout the diaspora period. Even today Orthodox Jews have a comprehensive educational system, which has changed a little bit, based on the neoclassical movement as well as the Enlightenment (18th century) but it emphasizes both precedent and hermeneutics in ancient Jewish law and teachings.

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Michael, the Jews have spent a great deal of their history scattered to hell and gone. That's why it was up to the Christians (the Catholic Church) to teach God's Revelation to man, to the entire world.

Adding to your error is that Judaism is not evangelistic. So the spread of Judeo-Christians values was not accomplished by the Jews since they kept to themselves. And when they weren't keeping to themselves they were being ostracized.

What in the name of Sam Hill are you people learning in school these days? You need to sue due to malpractice.

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Curtis, welcome back. I would recommend that you take a course in the philosophy of history. What goes into history books is, in large part determined by the dominant culture and philosophy of the day. We are having this discussion (and others) because that dominance isn't necessarily the most honest or beneficial for most people. Not is it consistent with the absolute values which you yourself aspire to. That's why free thought is so important. But you seem to have trouble accepting that.

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Rob, guess who kept Greco-Roman knowledge from disappearing? That would be the Medieval Catholic Church.

Plato's academy was an ancestor to the European university which was developed during the Middle Ages by the Catholic Church. And surely the Greek academies were instrumental in powering Greek civilization.

Similarly the Catholic monasteries which housed the first universities powered the rise of Western Civilization.

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No Michael, what goes into the history you learned is propaganda. The history I learned came from primary sources.

The Catholic Church compiled the first Bible. That is an objective, absolutely correct fact. Proper reason is comprised of weaving the facts together with philosophy in order to determine if something is good or evil, just or unjust.

But the philosophical assessment does not change the facts.

The so-called philosophy of history that you espouse is good, old fashioned Leftist propaganda.

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@ Curtis: "Everything I have written regarding the Catholic Church and the Bible is fact verified by scholarship."

Really? Let us see your citations for the following comment: "Michael, The Catholic Church is the oldest institution in the world." Either the people you rely upon are no scholars or you have learned the wrong things.

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Curtis: you might be amazed at what we learn in Jewish seminaries. In addition to being a biblical scholar I also have degrees in Philosophy, Germanic languages and Finance. I could give you a run for your money. But I'm letting others help me here!

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Let us just handle this one erroneous statement you made: "Michael, The Catholic Church is the oldest institution in the world." So far you haven't demonstrated where any of my facts went wrong when I answered your questions in detail. Instead you have become hostile and insulting. There is no need for that if you are truly educated.

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@Curtis: "Rob, you haven't stated any facts. All you've stated are erroneous opinions."

Do you mean that Hinduism is not considered the oldest religion? You believe that the Catholic Church is the oldest institution in the world. How about my mention of the Platonic Academy? Time for you to simply admit you are wrong. Anything else subjects you to ridicule.

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Curtis: Plato's academy was one of the most stable and successful institutions in history. It had a profound effect on Aristotle, post-Greek philosophy and -are you ready? - the Catholic Church.If you are trying to provoke us, it's not working. You are merely exposing yourself as a bigoted ignoramus.

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Curtis, again you are not following what was written when you say: "Rob, Hinduism is a religion not an institution. So your mention of it is worthless with regard to this discussion. "

I responded to your accusations that everything I said was erroneous. I quoted your own posting so you would know the context of my response, but it appears you have a bit of difficulty reading what you say and the responses provided by others.

I'll make it easy for you and deal with one absurd statement you made: "Michael, The Catholic Church is the oldest institution in the world." If you believe that then do you believe the world is only around 6,000 years old? It is OK if you do for I won't fault you for a religious belief, but at least that will inform us of your mindset.

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Do you notice how I quote a portion of your statement? I do that so you will know the context of the discussion. I recognize that you have difficulty in that area so I spend extra time doing so for you and explaining it to you as well.

You on the other hand are a name caller. No quotes. No proof. Why? It is simple. You are wrong and cannot make a case to prove that. You errantly said:"Michael, The Catholic Church is the oldest institution in the world." I have tried to spoon feed you so you can learn from your errors, but alas you prefer to call people names. Why not just drop the name calling and try to correct your statement. I gave you a little help down below.

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It appears you write before you read. I told you I had already done so below. How much more do you want? It is obvious to anyone that I am already spoon feeding you. Thus go below towards the bottom of the page, not the top. That is where your answers lie. Save some band width.

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My purpose in citing my credentials is to promote free thinking. Education and focused experience can free us from the bonds of brainwashing and build character and humility. In my view its a necessary precondition for a free and just society, a goal which is central to the teachings of Judaism. Behavior is more important than theory, and I judge all philosophies and religions on how they treat others. Unfortunately, the Catholic Church doesn't get a passing grade.

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Curtis it's hard to entertain a discussion with you if you continue to insult and obfuscate these issues. Not to mention your erroneous view of history and facts. It is not a fact that the Catholic Church is the oldest institution in the world. The Pope would undoubtedly agree with this truth acknowledged by all of Western civilization.

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The Catholic Church has graded itself. It apologized for its activities during the Spanish Inquisition. Now it is struggling to save face in regards to its crimes against children.My point is that a free and just society will reject any form of tyranny. The Church, Unfortunately, fits that bill. No amount of charitable care can undo its crimes against humanity and its arrogance in holding itself above the law.

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Now we are getting somewhere. Your new quote looks like this "Michael, The Catholic Church is the oldest institution in the world.[[[that still exists today]]]"

Even that is questionable, but it took us so long to get here I am reluctant to question you again. However, I suggest you check the dictionary for all the potential uses of the word 'institution' so you can further adjust your statement so that it is completely correct.

Do you understand what "the institution of laws" means?

Just one definition of institution from dictionary.reference.com: "An organization, establishment, foundation, society or the like, devoted to the promotion of a particular cause or program, ....

In that context do you still think the Catholic church is the oldest institution in the world that still exists today?

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There are many institutions older than the Catholic Church that are still around. Many countries, communities, societies and religious groups qualify. But I suspect that Curtis would find a way to further limit his statement until we are left with one choice.

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"There are many institutions older than the Catholic Church that are still around. Many countries, communities, societies and religious groups qualify."

His statement was a good one. From that you might find the most obvious example. In fact the laws of the Torah are an institution. The Hebrew Bible in many ways is an institution and it was adopted by the Catholic Church. Education was a major advancement by the Jewish people. Instead of keeping their people illiterate all Jewish men must be able to read by age 13. The Ten Commandments are an institution see #'s 5 and 7 of the definition of the word.

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Curtis: we are trying to help you refine your arguments but you're not cooperating. Your powers of persuasion are lost on us. We are honestly trying to help you because we are hoping for a productive discussion. You are like a dog that won't let go of its bone. Let go of it and see where it goes, OK?

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http://dictionary.reference.com seems to work for me. I guess I should have told you to put the http:// before the address. My fault. I didn't know that you were so unfamiliar with the use of the www.

Now go there and follow the instructions listed earlier. That will guide you through so that you understand all the meanings of the word institution.

Calling names does not help you prove a point. It only makes you into a gutter snipe something I believe you would prefer not to be. We are trying to help you with logical arguments that have a basis. We don't think you are dumb for if we did we would have terminated this discussion long ago. We are just trying to help you pass a barrier that apparently has been keeping you back at least on this list.

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"Judaism isn't an institution, it's a religion."Catholicism isn't an institution it's a religion.

"Jesus established an institution that he called his church"Solomon established an institution that he called his Temple.

"If you read the New Testament it's all right there."If you read the Old Testament It's all right there.

"Martin Luther the Reformer departed from the institutional Church."Reform Jews departed from the institutional Orthodox Temple

"Romans destroyed the Jewish Temple in 70AD "Jews remained in Israel till the present day, rebuilt Solomon's Temple and built Temples wherever they went.

Take note Jesus was a Jew. The first apostles were all Jewish. The Ten Commandments existed before Jesus and the Jewish religion strongly influenced the Catholic religion and Christianity. That influence is seen in America today.

By the way, the institution of marriage preexisted both Catholicism and Judaism.

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So did insurance. Hammurabi invented fire insurance. I don't think he used an actuarial table but he assessed a premium payment. I guess anyone who didn't pay probably lost their head. How's that for an individual mandate? :)

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Jesus did not establish any institutions; he was opposed to them. His movement was part of the Jewish rebellion against Rome. I have already given you other examples of institutions that are older than the Church. As predicted, you will reject all of them in favor of your preordained conclusion. Your arguments are unsupported and specious. I cordially invite you to leave this discussion.

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Without any intent of demeaning the Catholic Church and respecting one's religious beliefs where in the Bible does Jesus say he is 'establishing an institution'? (perhaps an extended quote) Secondly since the Bible was written after Jesus' death where is the chain of written records that document those words?

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I am still waiting for Curtis to provide his proof so we can all evaluate it's accuracy. This is the place where Curtis can shine for he poses as an expert on Catholicism so he certainly should be able to track the words of Jesus and provide linkage for the first few centuries A.D.

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Curtis you are arguing a point that is 500 years stale. Martin Luther exposed the Catholic Church as a fallacy. His thesis has turned out to be true and that's good enough for me.My point here is that any authoritarian institution, which considers its own interests more important than the welfare of its followers, has no place in a free society. This is precisely why the United States was founded.If you look at what a free thinker Thomas Jefferson was, you will eat your words. I hope you have a large napkin.

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Yikes, you sometimes hear people talk about the problem of "white-washing" history, but I've never had to use the term, "Christ-washing" history until I read some of Curtis's posts. Every historical "fact" of his I read was simply incorrect. There are a dozen or so obvious ones that others have pointed out, but one that stuck out to me was the claim that our university system is the product of Christianity, specifically because it carried the torch of Greek knowledge through to modern times. It was not Christians who carried the values and knowledge of the Ancient Greeks through the middle ages, it was the Muslims. These things were totally foreign to Christendom until conquering crusaders forcibly removed them to Europe, which helped kick off the Renaissance.

Also, it was the humanistic values of the enlightenment that are most responsible for philosophical ideals underpinning this great country, as well as the birth of our university system. The Judeo-Christian influences are obvious, and clear for all to see, but the enlightenment values are even more so.

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"Michael, you don't get to define the Catholic Church, except in the imaginary world of "free thinking." The Catholic Church defines itself."Apparently Galileo, Martin Luther, Christopher Columbus, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Joan of Arc and countless others lived in the imaginary world of free thinking. Some of them had run-ins with the Church and others had already moved on to reject other forms of tyranny.