Proficiencies: A mage hunter is proficient with all simple weapons and all light martial weapons, as well as the rapier and all bows. He is not proficient with any armor or shields.

Abilities: The mage hunter primarily relies on Charisma to fuel his class abilities, and Dexterity for defense and to hit his enemies. Strength is also important if the mage hunter does not take the Weapon Finesse feat. Constitution and Wisdom are important for saves, as well as for hit points and the Quarry ability respectively, and Intelligence helps the mage hunter acquire more skills.

Intuitive Defense (Ex): When not wearing armor or using a shield, a Mage Hunter adds his Charisma bonus to his armor class and all saving throws.

Unpredictable (Ex): At 2nd level and higher, attacks against a Mage Hunter do not gain the benefit of any insight bonuses.

See Invisibility (Su): At 3rd level and higher, a Mage Hunter gains the benefit of a continuous See Invisibility effect. This is not considered a divination effect for the purpose of Mind Blank and similar abilities.

True Seeing (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, a Mage Hunter gains the ability to use True Seeing, as the spell, for 5 rounds/day. At level 8, this increases to 50 rounds/day, and at level 13 he gains the ability to use it without restricting. Activating or deactivating this ability is a free action.

This is not considered a divination effect for the purpose of Mind Blank and similar abilities.

Spell Defense (Ex): At 4th level and higher, a Mage Hunter adds his level to his armor class and saving throws against spells.

Truth of Spells (Ex): A Mage Hunter's class abilities treat any spell, even those which have been turned into spell-like or supernatural abilities, as if they were normal spells. Furthermore, any ability that would otherwise be negated by the spell's new form instead gets +10 to all granted bonuses and dispel checks.

Minor Dispelling Strike (Su): A Mage Hunter is able to use focused antimagic to dispel his target's protections and enhancements. At 4th level and higher, whenever a Mage Hunter hits a target with a weapon attack (including natural weapons and unarmed strikes, but not spells), he may attempt to dispel spells affecting it, as though with a targeted Dispel Magic. If he chooses, he may choose to exclude certain effects from the Dispel Magic.

The Mage Hunter's dispel check is 1d20+class level+CHA bonus, against a DC equal to the spell's caster level+11; when calculating the spell's caster level, count only those levels due to the caster's classes (either the spellcasting class or a prestige class such as Archmage that counts as levels in the original class for that purpose), but not levels due to other sources such as class features (such as an Archmage's Spell Power feature) or items.

When determining whether the Mage Hunter hit his target and can dispel, damage reduction and natural armor are not taken into account. (They still work normally to determine whether he does damage.) Armor and shield bonuses to armor class are partially taken into account: If the Mage Hunter would hit his target if not for these bonuses, most spells on the target are not affected, but those that provide armor or shield bonuses to armor class are targeted by the dispel.

A Mage Hunter can also attack ongoing area-effect spells to try to dispel them in this manner; e.g. a Mage Hunter could shoot an arrow at a Wind Wall to dispel it. An area-effect spell is considered to have an AC equal to 5 plus the size modifier of the area it occupies. A Mage Hunter can likewise attempt to dispel magic items via use of the Sunder ability.

Because Dispelling Strike is formed of focused antimagic, any spell that it dispels ends as though it had entered an antimagic field; for example, a Fly spell would not cause the bearer to float downward. Furthermore, it is not affected by other antimagic fields, and gets +10 to the dispel check while in such a field; any spell being suppressed by the antimagic, however, is not affected. It is still unable, however, to dispel supernatural effects (unless they are spells), nor is it blocked by immunity to antimagic.

Skeet Shooting (Ex): At 5th level and higher, a Mage Hunter may add his class level to attack rolls against flying targets.

(Evasion and Mettle are as usual, so I'm not going to repeat the description. Exception: A helpless Mage Hunter does get the benefit of both abilities.

Spellsight (Su): At 6th level and higher, a Mage Hunter gains the benefit of a continuous Greater Arcane Sight ability; unlike the spell, this ability does not work on objects.

Energy Resistance (Su): At level 7 and higher, a Mage Hunter gains resistance 20 against any effect that does acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic damage.

Lesser Dispelling Strike (Su): At 7th level and higher, a Mage Hunter's Dispelling Strike can be used directly against creatures created by spells (such as undead or golems) and called creatures. If successful, it immediately banishes called creatures (with no save or spell resistance allowed) and destroys creatures created by spells (with no spell resistance allowed; mindless creatures are not entitled to a save, but those with an intelligence score may make a Will save to negate the effect; the DC is 10+CHA modifier+1/2 class level.)

Alternatively, the Mage Hunter may choose to leave the creature alone and merely disrupt any ability the caller or creator may have to command or control the creature. When used in this manner, no save or spell resistance is allowed, and the Mage Hunter gains +10 to his dispel check. Note that some creatures, particularly those gained by the Planar Ally series of spells, may choose to aid their former master anyway. (As with all NPC behavior, this is up to the DM.)

Share Spell (Su): As a standard action, a Mage Hunter of 8th level or higher may choose any Abjuration or Transmutation spell cast on someone in line of sight and gain its benefits for himself as well. The benefit continues even if the original bearer leaves line of sight, but ends if the original spell ends.

Quarry (Su): As a standard action, a Mage Hunter of 9th level or higher may designate any individual within 120 feet and within line of sight as a quarry. This status lasts until the Mage Hunter or the target is killed, or the Mage Hunter abandons the quarry. A Mage Hunter may, at any given time, have a number of quarries up to his Wisdom modifier, but may have one quarry even if he has a Wisdom modifier of 0 or lower.

A Mage Hunter may use Spellsight and Share Spell on his quarry even if the latter is not within line of sight, or even if he is on a different plane or in a nondimensional or extradimensional space. He may also, at will, cast Scrying on the quarry as a spell-like ability; this version of Scrying does not allow a save or spell resistance, and allows the Mage Hunter's True Sight ability to function through it, but provides only sight (not sound) and lasts for only one round. If the quarry is protected by a spell such as Nondetection or Mind Blank, it cannot be seen, but its surroundings are still visible.

Finally, a Mage Hunter may teleport to his quarry, even across planes or to a nondimensional or extradimensional space; he may choose any location within 10' of his quarry as his arrival point, and arrives exactly where he chooses. He may bring other creatures with him, subject to the same restrictions as the Teleport spell.

Protective Aura (Su): At 9th level or higher, a Mage Hunter produces an aura around him that provides limited protection against magic. The Mage Hunter, as well as any creature within line of sight (whether friendly or hostile), is protected from possession and mental control as though with a Protection from Evil spell. This effect does not grant the bonuses to armor class and saves, or protection from summoned creatures, granted by the spell.

A Mage Hunter may raise or lower this ability as a standard action, but cannot otherwise affect who is affected by it.

Spell Resistance (Su): At level 10 and higher, a Mage Hunter gains Spell Resistance equal to 15+class level. Attempts to penetrate this spell resistance do not benefit from any increases to caster level which do not count for the purposes of Dispelling Strike; bonuses to caster level specifically to penetrate spell resistance do function, but any such bonuses granted by a spell work at only half effectiveness.

Dispelling Strike (Su): Beginning at level 10, if a Mage Hunter's attack fails to hit due to armor or shield bonuses to armor class, he may target all spells on the target with his Dispelling Strike ability (even though he does no damage), but may only add half his Charisma bonus to his dispel check against those spells that would not be affected by Minor Dispelling Strike.

Death Ward (Su): At 11th level and higher, a Mage Hunter gains the benefit of a continuous Death Ward, as the spell.

False Vision (Sp): A Mage Hunter of 11th level or higher may cast the False Vision spell as a spell-like ability three times per day.

Steal Spell (Su): A Mage Hunter of level 12 or higher who is able to use Share Spell on a particular spell may instead, as a standard action, attempt to transfer the spell to himself, depriving the original owner of it. If the spell could be dispelled by its caster, this ability is also transferred to the Mage Hunter. The spell's current bearer is entitled to a Will save (DC 10+CHA+1/2 class level) to resist the ability.

Resist Magic (Ex): If a Mage Hunter of level 13 or higher is targeted by a spell that allows spell resistance but does not allow a save, he is entitled to make a Will Save to negate it.

Backlash (Su): If a Mage Hunter of level 13 or higher dispels a spell with his Dispelling Strike ability, he may cause it to do 1d3 damage/spell level or 1d6 nonlethal damage/spell level against the spell's caster. This damage cannot be prevented in any way, but does not allow the use of Dispelling Strike. This ability cannot be used when dispelling a magic item.

Mind Blank (Su): A Mage Hunter of level 14 or higher gains the benefit of a continuous Mind Blank effect, as the spell.

Seal Spells (Su): A Mage Hunter of level 15 or higher, as a standard action, may attempt to seal away a spellcaster's powers inside a gem worth at least 500 gp per caster level of the target. If the gem is not valuable enough, it shatters when the sealing is attempted.

The target must be within close range (25 feet+5 feet/2 levels), and is entitled to a Will save (DC=10+CHA modifier+class level). If the save succeeds, the gem shatters. However, if the target can be tricked into accepting a specially prepared trigger object, this completes the sealing with no save allowed.

This ability may be used even after the target is slain, for up to 1 round/caster level after the target's death; this may be done, for example, if there is a concern that the target may be resurrected.

Once the target's powers have been sealed, it cannot cast any spells or use any spell-like abilities until the gem is broken. Not even Wish or Miracle can restore them.

This ability may be used 1/day at level 15, and 3/day at level 18.

Greater Dispelling Strike (Su): A Mage Hunter of level 16 or higher may use Dispelling Strike even if he misses his target, so long as he attacked the correct square. In this case, he does not add his Charisma bonus to his dispel check at all. This ability may not be used if he attempts to sunder a magic item and fails.

Dispelling Retort (Su): If anyone takes an offensive action against a Mage Hunter of level 16 or higher, the Mage Hunter may immediately, as a free action, use his Dispelling Strike ability on them; he does not add his Charisma bonus to the dispel check.

Greater Spell Defense (Ex): A Mage Hunter of 17th level or higher gains twice his level as a bonus to armor class and saving throws against spells or attacks and effects caused by summoned and called creatures and creatures created by magic. This replaces the Spell Defense ability.

Antimagic Field (Su): At 18th level, a Mage Hunter gains the ability to create an antimagic field (as the spell) of any radius between 10 feet and 60 feet. Creating the field, removing it, or changing its size, is an immediate action.

This antimagic field suppresses even spells that are immune to normal antimagic; epic spells may attempt to bypass it as though it were also an epic effect, and divine abilities may bypass it freely.

Dispelling Blast (Su): A Mage Hunter of 19th level or higher may, as a standard action, use his Dispelling Strike ability against all targets (including magical items) within a 40' radius, with Long range (400 feet+40 feet/level). When used in this manner, he does not apply his Charisma bonus to the dispel check, and furthermore takes a -10 penalty on it.

Dispelling Chain (Su): A Mage Hunter of 19th level or higher may, as a standard action, use his Dispelling Strike ability against a single target in Medium range (100 feet+10 feet/level); for each effect it successfully dispels, he may target one additional target within Medium range which is also within 30' of the previous target. (Thus, if he dispels a spell on his original target, he may choose a second target within 30'; if he succeeds on a spell on the second target he may choose a third which is within 30' of the second, even if it is not within 30' of the first.) When Dispelling Strike is used in this manner, the Mage Hunter does not apply his Charisma bonus to the dispel check.

Greater Quarry: At 20th level, a Mage Hunter gains the ability to designate a quarry who is not within range, so long as some spell that the quarry has cast is within range.

Amridell

2013-06-27, 11:35 AM

You should give it some way to steal a spell/buff from the mage. Or maybe burn off their spell slots.

Xaotiq1

2013-06-27, 11:37 AM

Gotta spread the love! This isn't advice so much as a shameless plug for my own work; but you could take the following material, re-fluff it; and use it for class features:

Maneuver Desriptions
Carmine Crucifixion
Otataral Dragon (Stance)
Level: 3rd
Prereqs:
Initiation Action: Swift
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance
Otataral Dragon initiators learn early that they need to close ground when facing their spell slinging foes. Carmine Crucifixion stance bolsters the initiatorís defenses in order to do just that.
As long as this stance is maintained, the initiator is protected as if by a globe of invulnerability, lesser. Because this is not a spell or spell-like ability, it is not subject to being dispelled.

Crimson Confusion
Otataral Dragon (Strike)
Level: 4th
Prereqs:
Initiation Action: 1 Standard action
Range: Melee attack
Target/Area: One creature
Duration: 1 round
Saving Throw: Will partial
Your blows cause your enemies to falter in their actions. When you initiate this strike, upon a successful attack roll, your opponent must make a will save (DC= 10 + Sense Motive Modifier) or lose the ability to take any action except a full-attack or full round action until the end of the martial adeptís next turn. If the save is successful, the target is staggered until the end of their next turn.
Devour the False Form
Otataral Dragon (Strike)
Level: 5th
Prereqs: 2 Otataral Dragon Maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee attack
Target/Area: One creature
Saving Throw: Fort partial
Anyone who knows anything about magic knows that casters can change their shape with ease. Otataral Dragon students are adept at breaking these disguises.
This strike, if the attack hits, the subject must make a Fort save (DC= 10 + Sense Motive Modifier) or take 3d10 points of damage as they are forced back in to their original shape. Note: Creatures with the shape-changer type are not immune to the effects of this maneuver. If the save succeeds, the subject doesnít change form, but still takes the extra damage.
Dragonís Dance
Otataral Dragon (Stance)
Level: 1st
Prereqs: ó
Initiation Action: Swift
Range: Personal
Target/Area: You
Duration: Stance
Otataral is known for its ability to disrupt and absorb magic. Students of this discipline soon garner a like reputation. This basic stance is the first step on the long and rusty road.
While this stance is active, all opponents within the affected area (see below) are unable to cast defensively.

Dragonís Sundering Maw
Otataral Dragon (Strike)
9th
Prereqs: 4 Otataral Dragon maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 Full-round action
Range: Melee strike
Target/Area: One creature
Duration: ó
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial
Dragonís Sundering Maw is the ultimate Otataral Dragon attack. It rends magic from its target, in some cases permanently.
As a full-round action, you make a number of touch attacks up to your maximum number of attacks in a full attack action. Your opponent makes a fortitude save (DC= 10+ your Sense Motive Modifier + number of successful touch attacks). A failed save means that any spell effects and/or magic items with caster levels equal to or lower than your initiator level are permanently disjoined. Effects higher than your initiator level are suppressed for 24 hours, and artifacts are inert for 1 hour.
A successful save suppresses effects ≤ your initiator level for 24 hours and those greater than your IL for 1 hour. In either case, the target takes your normal melee damage and an additional 15d8 points of damage.

Dust Suffused Alloy
Otataral Dragon (Boost)
Level: 1st
Prereqs: 1 Otataral Dragon maneuver
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Target/Area: You
Duration: 1 round / 3 ILís
Otataral is often worked into other metals in order to infuse weapons and armor with its anti-magic properties. Otataral Dragon adepts use similar techniques on themselves.
When you initiate this boost, you gain a +1 bonus to AC and saves versus spells and spell-like abilities until the end of your next turn. In addition, you gain spell resistance equal to 10 + your Sense Motive Ranks + 1/2 your IL that you can lower & raise as a free action until the duration expires.
Empty the Warrens
Otataral Dragon
Level: 4th
Prereqs: 1 Otataral Dragon maneuver
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target/Area: One creature
Duration: Instant
While Draining Cross targets items, Empty the Warrens targets the caster itself. Once the initiator succeeds on a touch attack, the target must make a fortitude save (DC= 10 + Sense Motive Modifier) or lose one prepared spell/spell per day/use of SLA per spell level for every 5 initiator levels you have. A successful save means the target only loses one spell per spell level.

Florid Reflection
Otataral Dragon (Counter)
Level: 7th
Prereqs: 3 Otataral Dragon maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Target/Area: One spell effect
Rays, bolts, blasts, orbs; man, who needs Ďem? Otataral Dragon adepts know that many spells casters use on them can only affect one target at a time. This maneuver helps them make sure that target isnít them.
When you are the target of a spell effect, you may initiate this counter. You make a Sense Motive check in opposition to the effectís attack roll, or caster level. If you beat the total, you are not affected. If you beat the total by 10 or more, you bounce that effect back at the caster. If you win by 15 or more, you choose a new target for the spell effect.

Impedance of Rust
Otataral Dragon (Counter)
Level: 2nd
Prereqs: 2 Otataral Dragon maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Range: 100í + 10í/ IL
Target/Area: 1 spell effect
Duration: Instant
You sense a spell being cast that could destroy you and/or your companions. The otataral that infuses you seems to take hold of your limbs as you spring to action.
When you initiate Impedance of Rust, you create a cloud of otataral dust that blocks the line of effect of a 3rd level or lower spell cast within the maneuverís range.

Otataral Dragonís Wing
Otataral Dragon (Counter)
Level: 8th
Prereqs: Three Otataral Dragon maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Range: 400í + 40í/IL
Target/Area: One spell effect
Duration: Instant
This maneuver is an improved version of Impedance of Rust. It blocks line of effect for spells of up to 9th level.

Otataral Fugue
Otataral Dragon (Strike)
Level: 6th
Prereqs: Two Otataral Dragon maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee attack
Target/Area: One creature
Duration: 1 round
Like Crimson Confusion and Red Madness, this maneuver robs the creature struck of their actions. You initiate this maneuver with a melee attack. If the attack hits, the target must make a will save (DC= 10 + Sense Motive Modifier) or be rendered unable to act until after the martial adepts next turn. If the save succeeds, the target may take only one move action until the end of the initiator's next turn.

Red Madness
Otataral Dragon (Strike)
Level: 2nd
Prereqs:
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee attack
Target/Area: One creature
Duration: 1 round
Students of this discipline know that time is important to spell casters. Red Madness helps disrupt that precious resource.
You initiate this maneuver with a melee attack. If successful, the target rolls a (DC= 10 + Sense Motive Modifier) or be denied the use of swift or move actions until the end of the martial adeptís next turn.

Rose Colored Glasses
Otataral Dragon (Boost)
Level: 3rd
Prereqs:
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Target/Area: You
Duration: 1 round
Many a warrior has fallen through a false floor, been knocked prone by a shadow evocation, or cowered before a terrifying beast made of nothing but light. All they needed was Rose Colored Glasses.
When you initiate this boost, you gain a bonus to save versus illusion (all types) spells equal to your initiator level. If you failed to disbelieve an illusion previously, you are able to make another save with the bonus. If your save beats the DC by ten or more, the illusion is dispelled.

Rubicund Cacophony
Otataral Dragon (Stance)
Level: 8th
Prereqs: 3 Otataral Dragon maneuvers
Initiation Action: Swift
Range: Personal
Target/Area: You
Duration: Stance
When you enter this stance, it creates a field of unstable energy that can disrupt casters. In an area of 10í + 5í/IL, any spell cast is subject to a 60% failure chance.

Rustic Meditation
Otataral Dragon (Stance)
Level: 5th
Prereqs: 2 Otataral Dragon maneuvers
Initiation Action: Swift
Range: Personal
Target/Area: You
Duration: Stance
Invisibility and teleporting are two banes of those who take on casters. Rustic meditation helps even the odds. As long as you are in this stance, you gain the ability to see invisibility and anticipate teleport in a 5í/IL radius emanation centered on you.

Rufescent Touch
Otataral Dragon (Boost)
Level: 2nd
Prereqs:
Initiation Action: swift
Range: Personal
Target/Area: Weapons wielded
Duration: 1 round
Your weapons become laced with rusty veins and pulse with a sickly red light. They cry out for the blood of magi and monsters.
Your weapons deal +2d6 +1/IL points of damage to any opponents you strike who cast spells, use spell-like abilities, or are creatures summoned by spell. You also gain a +4 bonus to confirm critical hits made on such creatures.

Scales of Otataral
Otataral Dragon (Counter)
Level: 2nd
Prereqs:
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Range: 100í + 10í/IL
Target/Area: Sheet of otataral dust up to 20í long/IL, or a ring w/ a radius of 5í/2ILís. 20í high in either case
Duration: 1 round
You swing your weapon in an arc close to the ground. From any point within range, you kick up a wall or ring of otataral dust that blocks line of sight to all of the creatures in that area until the end of your next turn. The dust does not hamper the ability of those inside the effect to make attacks versus targets on the other.

Scarlet Gyre
Otataral Dragon (Strike)
Level: 5th
Prereqs: 2 Otataral Dragon maneuvers
Initiation Action: Standard
Range: Melee attack
Target/Area: One creature
Duration: Instant
This strike tears down those who would hide behind magic for protection. When you initiate Scarlet Gyre, you make a melee attack against any creature you threaten. As you do so, the magical aura of a creature or object is disrupted, creating a damaging feedback reaction of arcane power.
The target takes 1d6 points of damage per spell level of each functioning spell or spell-like ability currently affecting it (maximum 25d6).
For example, a creature who is hasted (3rd level), flying (3rd level), and protected by a stoneskin spell (4th-level wizard version) takes 10d6 points of damage (Will save for half . DC= 10 + Sense Motive modifier).
In addition, any creature that fails its save must then succeed on a fortitude save (DC same as will save) or be dazed for 1d6 rounds.
Only spells specifically targeted on the creature in question can be used to create the backlash of scarlet gyre, so spells that affect an area (such as invisibility sphere and solid fog) can't be used to deal damage to creatures within their area.
Likewise, persistent or continuous effects from magic items can't be used to deal feedback damage, but targeted spell effects can beófor example, the magic of a cloak of resistance can't be used by scarlet gyre, but a spell cast by a wand of invisibility could be.

Seal the Gate
Otataral Dragon (Stance)
Level: 6th
Prereqs: 2 Otataral Dragon maneuvers
Initiation Action: Swift
Range: Personal
Target/Area: You
Duration: Stance
Tales are told of a rust colored dragon hanged on a cross that faces a portal. No one knows where the door leads to, all they know is that the presence of the dragon is keeping whateverís on the other side out.
For the duration of this stance, any opponent casting a spell with the [summoning] or [calling] descriptor must make a caster level check versus the adeptís Sense Motive. The caster suffers a penalty equal to the level of the spell being cast. If the check succeeds, the spell is cast as normal. If not, the spell fails.
Sever Magic
Otataral Dragon (Strike)
Level: 3rd
Prereqs:
Initiation Action: Standard
Range: Melee attack
Target/Area: One Creature
Duration: Instant
With a successful melee attack, you strip away spell energy infused in a creature, turning it against them in a harmful burst. In addition to your melee damage, the creature you strike is also subject to the effects of slashing dispel.

Shatter Magic
Otataral Dragon (Strike)
Level: 1st
Prereqs:
Initiation Action: Standard
Range: Melee attack
Target/Area: One creature
Duration: Instant
Fighting magic users is often like slicing an onion. You must go through layer after layer of effects. One of the most basic maneuvers the Otataral Adept learns is how to start tearing those walls down.
The creature you strike to initiate this maneuver is dealt your attack damage and suffers the effect of dispelling touch.

Vermillion Pursuit
Otataral Dragon (Counter)
Level: 3rd
Prereqs: 1 Otataral Dragon maneuver
Initiation Action: Free
Range: 10í
Target/Area: You or one ally
Duration: ó
For many casters, going first in a fight means the difference between winning and losing a battle; Vermillion Pursuit is often a difference maker.
As a free action, you make your (or an ally within range) initiative count equal to the highest initiative +1. This changes the targetís initiative count. The target of this maneuver cannot act again on their on their original initiative.

Yitzi

2013-06-27, 12:06 PM

You should give it some way to steal a spell/buff from the mage. Or maybe burn off their spell slots.

Stealing buffs was one of the class features I had in mind. I don't think I'll give him the ability to burn off spell slots, except for as the mage spends all his spells to try (probably unsuccessfully unless he's got nonspellcaster allies) to kill or at least escape the hunter.

Gotta spread the love! This isn't advice so much as a shameless plug for my own work; but you could take the following material, re-fluff it; and use it for class features:

Maneuver Desriptions
Carmine Crucifixion
Otataral Dragon (Stance)
Level: 3rd
Prereqs:
Initiation Action: Swift
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance
Otataral Dragon initiators learn early that they need to close ground when facing their spell slinging foes. Carmine Crucifixion stance bolsters the initiatorís defenses in order to do just that.
As long as this stance is maintained, the initiator is protected as if by a globe of invulnerability, lesser. Because this is not a spell or spell-like ability, it is not subject to being dispelled.

Crimson Confusion
Otataral Dragon (Strike)
Level: 4th
Prereqs:
Initiation Action: 1 Standard action
Range: Melee attack
Target/Area: One creature
Duration: 1 round
Saving Throw: Will partial
Your blows cause your enemies to falter in their actions. When you initiate this strike, upon a successful attack roll, your opponent must make a will save (DC= 10 + Sense Motive Modifier) or lose the ability to take any action except a full-attack or full round action until the end of the martial adeptís next turn. If the save is successful, the target is staggered until the end of their next turn.
Devour the False Form
Otataral Dragon (Strike)
Level: 5th
Prereqs: 2 Otataral Dragon Maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee attack
Target/Area: One creature
Saving Throw: Fort partial
Anyone who knows anything about magic knows that casters can change their shape with ease. Otataral Dragon students are adept at breaking these disguises.
This strike, if the attack hits, the subject must make a Fort save (DC= 10 + Sense Motive Modifier) or take 3d10 points of damage as they are forced back in to their original shape. Note: Creatures with the shape-changer type are not immune to the effects of this maneuver. If the save succeeds, the subject doesnít change form, but still takes the extra damage.
Dragonís Dance
Otataral Dragon (Stance)
Level: 1st
Prereqs: ó
Initiation Action: Swift
Range: Personal
Target/Area: You
Duration: Stance
Otataral is known for its ability to disrupt and absorb magic. Students of this discipline soon garner a like reputation. This basic stance is the first step on the long and rusty road.
While this stance is active, all opponents within the affected area (see below) are unable to cast defensively.

Dragonís Sundering Maw
Otataral Dragon (Strike)
9th
Prereqs: 4 Otataral Dragon maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 Full-round action
Range: Melee strike
Target/Area: One creature
Duration: ó
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial
Dragonís Sundering Maw is the ultimate Otataral Dragon attack. It rends magic from its target, in some cases permanently.
As a full-round action, you make a number of touch attacks up to your maximum number of attacks in a full attack action. Your opponent makes a fortitude save (DC= 10+ your Sense Motive Modifier + number of successful touch attacks). A failed save means that any spell effects and/or magic items with caster levels equal to or lower than your initiator level are permanently disjoined. Effects higher than your initiator level are suppressed for 24 hours, and artifacts are inert for 1 hour.
A successful save suppresses effects ≤ your initiator level for 24 hours and those greater than your IL for 1 hour. In either case, the target takes your normal melee damage and an additional 15d8 points of damage.

Dust Suffused Alloy
Otataral Dragon (Boost)
Level: 1st
Prereqs: 1 Otataral Dragon maneuver
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Target/Area: You
Duration: 1 round / 3 ILís
Otataral is often worked into other metals in order to infuse weapons and armor with its anti-magic properties. Otataral Dragon adepts use similar techniques on themselves.
When you initiate this boost, you gain a +1 bonus to AC and saves versus spells and spell-like abilities until the end of your next turn. In addition, you gain spell resistance equal to 10 + your Sense Motive Ranks + 1/2 your IL that you can lower & raise as a free action until the duration expires.
Empty the Warrens
Otataral Dragon
Level: 4th
Prereqs: 1 Otataral Dragon maneuver
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target/Area: One creature
Duration: Instant
While Draining Cross targets items, Empty the Warrens targets the caster itself. Once the initiator succeeds on a touch attack, the target must make a fortitude save (DC= 10 + Sense Motive Modifier) or lose one prepared spell/spell per day/use of SLA per spell level for every 5 initiator levels you have. A successful save means the target only loses one spell per spell level.

Florid Reflection
Otataral Dragon (Counter)
Level: 7th
Prereqs: 3 Otataral Dragon maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Target/Area: One spell effect
Rays, bolts, blasts, orbs; man, who needs Ďem? Otataral Dragon adepts know that many spells casters use on them can only affect one target at a time. This maneuver helps them make sure that target isnít them.
When you are the target of a spell effect, you may initiate this counter. You make a Sense Motive check in opposition to the effectís attack roll, or caster level. If you beat the total, you are not affected. If you beat the total by 10 or more, you bounce that effect back at the caster. If you win by 15 or more, you choose a new target for the spell effect.

Impedance of Rust
Otataral Dragon (Counter)
Level: 2nd
Prereqs: 2 Otataral Dragon maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Range: 100í + 10í/ IL
Target/Area: 1 spell effect
Duration: Instant
You sense a spell being cast that could destroy you and/or your companions. The otataral that infuses you seems to take hold of your limbs as you spring to action.
When you initiate Impedance of Rust, you create a cloud of otataral dust that blocks the line of effect of a 3rd level or lower spell cast within the maneuverís range.

Otataral Dragonís Wing
Otataral Dragon (Counter)
Level: 8th
Prereqs: Three Otataral Dragon maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Range: 400í + 40í/IL
Target/Area: One spell effect
Duration: Instant
This maneuver is an improved version of Impedance of Rust. It blocks line of effect for spells of up to 9th level.

Otataral Fugue
Otataral Dragon (Strike)
Level: 6th
Prereqs: Two Otataral Dragon maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee attack
Target/Area: One creature
Duration: 1 round
Like Crimson Confusion and Red Madness, this maneuver robs the creature struck of their actions. You initiate this maneuver with a melee attack. If the attack hits, the target must make a will save (DC= 10 + Sense Motive Modifier) or be rendered unable to act until after the martial adepts next turn. If the save succeeds, the target may take only one move action until the end of the initiator's next turn.

Red Madness
Otataral Dragon (Strike)
Level: 2nd
Prereqs:
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee attack
Target/Area: One creature
Duration: 1 round
Students of this discipline know that time is important to spell casters. Red Madness helps disrupt that precious resource.
You initiate this maneuver with a melee attack. If successful, the target rolls a (DC= 10 + Sense Motive Modifier) or be denied the use of swift or move actions until the end of the martial adeptís next turn.

Rose Colored Glasses
Otataral Dragon (Boost)
Level: 3rd
Prereqs:
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Target/Area: You
Duration: 1 round
Many a warrior has fallen through a false floor, been knocked prone by a shadow evocation, or cowered before a terrifying beast made of nothing but light. All they needed was Rose Colored Glasses.
When you initiate this boost, you gain a bonus to save versus illusion (all types) spells equal to your initiator level. If you failed to disbelieve an illusion previously, you are able to make another save with the bonus. If your save beats the DC by ten or more, the illusion is dispelled.

Rubicund Cacophony
Otataral Dragon (Stance)
Level: 8th
Prereqs: 3 Otataral Dragon maneuvers
Initiation Action: Swift
Range: Personal
Target/Area: You
Duration: Stance
When you enter this stance, it creates a field of unstable energy that can disrupt casters. In an area of 10í + 5í/IL, any spell cast is subject to a 60% failure chance.

Rustic Meditation
Otataral Dragon (Stance)
Level: 5th
Prereqs: 2 Otataral Dragon maneuvers
Initiation Action: Swift
Range: Personal
Target/Area: You
Duration: Stance
Invisibility and teleporting are two banes of those who take on casters. Rustic meditation helps even the odds. As long as you are in this stance, you gain the ability to see invisibility and anticipate teleport in a 5í/IL radius emanation centered on you.

Rufescent Touch
Otataral Dragon (Boost)
Level: 2nd
Prereqs:
Initiation Action: swift
Range: Personal
Target/Area: Weapons wielded
Duration: 1 round
Your weapons become laced with rusty veins and pulse with a sickly red light. They cry out for the blood of magi and monsters.
Your weapons deal +2d6 +1/IL points of damage to any opponents you strike who cast spells, use spell-like abilities, or are creatures summoned by spell. You also gain a +4 bonus to confirm critical hits made on such creatures.

Scales of Otataral
Otataral Dragon (Counter)
Level: 2nd
Prereqs:
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Range: 100í + 10í/IL
Target/Area: Sheet of otataral dust up to 20í long/IL, or a ring w/ a radius of 5í/2ILís. 20í high in either case
Duration: 1 round
You swing your weapon in an arc close to the ground. From any point within range, you kick up a wall or ring of otataral dust that blocks line of sight to all of the creatures in that area until the end of your next turn. The dust does not hamper the ability of those inside the effect to make attacks versus targets on the other.

Scarlet Gyre
Otataral Dragon (Strike)
Level: 5th
Prereqs: 2 Otataral Dragon maneuvers
Initiation Action: Standard
Range: Melee attack
Target/Area: One creature
Duration: Instant
This strike tears down those who would hide behind magic for protection. When you initiate Scarlet Gyre, you make a melee attack against any creature you threaten. As you do so, the magical aura of a creature or object is disrupted, creating a damaging feedback reaction of arcane power.
The target takes 1d6 points of damage per spell level of each functioning spell or spell-like ability currently affecting it (maximum 25d6).
For example, a creature who is hasted (3rd level), flying (3rd level), and protected by a stoneskin spell (4th-level wizard version) takes 10d6 points of damage (Will save for half . DC= 10 + Sense Motive modifier).
In addition, any creature that fails its save must then succeed on a fortitude save (DC same as will save) or be dazed for 1d6 rounds.
Only spells specifically targeted on the creature in question can be used to create the backlash of scarlet gyre, so spells that affect an area (such as invisibility sphere and solid fog) can't be used to deal damage to creatures within their area.
Likewise, persistent or continuous effects from magic items can't be used to deal feedback damage, but targeted spell effects can beófor example, the magic of a cloak of resistance can't be used by scarlet gyre, but a spell cast by a wand of invisibility could be.

Seal the Gate
Otataral Dragon (Stance)
Level: 6th
Prereqs: 2 Otataral Dragon maneuvers
Initiation Action: Swift
Range: Personal
Target/Area: You
Duration: Stance
Tales are told of a rust colored dragon hanged on a cross that faces a portal. No one knows where the door leads to, all they know is that the presence of the dragon is keeping whateverís on the other side out.
For the duration of this stance, any opponent casting a spell with the [summoning] or [calling] descriptor must make a caster level check versus the adeptís Sense Motive. The caster suffers a penalty equal to the level of the spell being cast. If the check succeeds, the spell is cast as normal. If not, the spell fails.
Sever Magic
Otataral Dragon (Strike)
Level: 3rd
Prereqs:
Initiation Action: Standard
Range: Melee attack
Target/Area: One Creature
Duration: Instant
With a successful melee attack, you strip away spell energy infused in a creature, turning it against them in a harmful burst. In addition to your melee damage, the creature you strike is also subject to the effects of slashing dispel.

Shatter Magic
Otataral Dragon (Strike)
Level: 1st
Prereqs:
Initiation Action: Standard
Range: Melee attack
Target/Area: One creature
Duration: Instant
Fighting magic users is often like slicing an onion. You must go through layer after layer of effects. One of the most basic maneuvers the Otataral Adept learns is how to start tearing those walls down.
The creature you strike to initiate this maneuver is dealt your attack damage and suffers the effect of dispelling touch.

Vermillion Pursuit
Otataral Dragon (Counter)
Level: 3rd
Prereqs: 1 Otataral Dragon maneuver
Initiation Action: Free
Range: 10í
Target/Area: You or one ally
Duration: ó
For many casters, going first in a fight means the difference between winning and losing a battle; Vermillion Pursuit is often a difference maker.
As a free action, you make your (or an ally within range) initiative count equal to the highest initiative +1. This changes the targetís initiative count. The target of this maneuver cannot act again on their on their original initiative.

I'm not really interested in taking the maneuver-based approach, and the ideas there are generally things I already planned stronger versions of.

Xaotiq1

2013-06-27, 12:38 PM

Well, glad to see that you're appreciative of other people's feedback. :smallfrown:

Yitzi

2013-06-27, 12:49 PM

Well, glad to see that you're appreciative of other people's feedback. :smallfrown:

I do appreciate it, I just don't see anything there that fits the idea I'm going for. Perhaps once I finish posting it, you can let me know if you have any ideas about it.

Yitzi

2013-06-27, 03:02 PM

And the class is now ready and open for comments, suggestions, and review.

Hanuman

2013-06-27, 03:10 PM

You should at least scale intuitive defense if not re-position it or remove it.

Having a 1 level dip twice as good as a paladin's grace is frankly broken.

I like the lack of insight bonus, it's niche but interesting mechanically.

Spell Defense is broken, it needs to be at most 1/3 level, and that's considering having your CHA = save+ac.

Before I go on, I have to point out that creating niche mechanics and then horribly overpowering them is not balanced, it's going to force the player to be distracted during any environment when he is not killing mages, and when he is the fights will be less interesting as he's going to be able to muscle through them.

What you should probably have instead are strategic abilities which allow you to dispatch enemies (especially mages) without having to go overboard on being a tank.

First of all, consider how a fighter would take down a mage. Sit on that a bit.

Focus on attacking their fort save, get yourself the ability to block spells that don't allow saves, give yourself the ability to take no damage when you evade an attack, gain resistances somehow instead of just saves, gain immunity to lower level spells at high level.

Some interesting things would be to temporarily cause ability point damage, this would debuff the enemy, causing them to lose their highest spell slot access and lowering their casting stat, this would be the same as being able to burn their spell slots and increase your saves but in a more balanced way.

I'd recommend instead of every rock you haplessly lob at a mage causes them to lose flight and fall down the pit, give the slayer the ability to craft special ammo and weapons which is cheaper and more powerful than their enchantment counterparts which I've posted above, like, scale their effect with your level instead. This would allow the hunter time and preparation, pre-meditatively planning her next hit and carefully working at her ammo-bench or proxy carving death near-ritualistically into her implements of death and spite.

At very high level I'd give the ability for the weapons to have Magic Phasing:

(+2) Phasing (DR330 p67) Can ignore a single object of up to 5í thick. The ammo ignores Cover, a Shield, or Armor (in that order and only one).

But instead of objects, have it ignore up to 5' of magical protection as if it had an anti-magic field sheathing the weapon.

Anyway, when I think of mage slayer I think of someone that can put metal inside squishy glass cannons, but being able to shoot a crossbow at a mage shouldn't really make you any worse at shooting it at anything else.

Mages can dominate owlbears and such and train them, they need not be summoned, and I assure you that if you play such a niche character your DM will pull that on you.

And finally, give the boy some options, allow them to think on their feet, make tough decisions and plans, make use of the action economy, and throw wrenches in the gears of casters, not just slap c4 on the side of the engine.

Yitzi

2013-06-27, 03:29 PM

You should at least scale intuitive defense if not re-position it or remove it.

Having a 1 level dip twice as good as a paladin's grace is frankly broken.

You're right. I'll fix that...perhaps limit it to when he's not wearing armor. That way, fairly few builds can use it as a dip, and it's more comparable to a monk dip (which doesn't give the save bonus, but does give a couple of nice feats and Flurry of Blows).

I like the lack of insight bonus, it's niche but interesting mechanically.

I'd move it down, except that he really needs it there to deal with Invisibility and Mirror Image.

Spell Defense is broken, it needs to be at most 1/3 level, and that's considering having your CHA = save+ac.

I think this plays into your next point:

Before I go on, I have to point out that creating niche mechanics and then horribly overpowering them is not balanced, it's going to force the player to be distracted during any environment when he is not killing mages, and when he is the fights will be less interesting as he's going to be able to muscle through them.

I think that's more a criticism of the basic class idea than of how the class implements the idea. To that, all I have to say is that if a player wants to play it, that's his choice, and if not it can still make a good NPC.

What you should probably have instead are strategic abilities which allow you to dispatch enemies (especially mages) without having to go overboard on being a tank.

I don't think so. More focus on offense is the last thing D&D needs; the rocket tag phenomenon is too strong as it is.

That said, he's not without strategic abilities; he's a mage hunter rather than a mage slayer, so he is designed to lure mages toward him (via his skill selection), then use Quarry on them and hunt them down.

First of all, consider how a fighter would take down a mage.

He wouldn't be able to?

The "offensively focused combat anticaster" approach has been tried. It does not work.

Anyway, when I think of mage slayer I think of someone that can put metal inside squishy glass cannons

If mages were in fact squishy glass cannons (i.e. easy to break, not very mobile) that might work. But they aren't.

Mages can dominate owlbears and such and train them, they need not be summoned, and I assure you that if you play such a niche character your DM will pull that on you.

And then you dispel the dominate and let the owlbear take its revenge.

Now, what a mage can do is team up with a rogue (who might help him avoid any ambushes you set) and a fighter (who can protect him; I intentionally made the class weak enough to lose to a fighter), and then you'd have to find allies and bring them in as well and it gets interesting.

And finally, give the boy some options, allow them to think on their feet, make tough decisions and plans, make use of the action economy, and throw wrenches in the gears of casters, not just slap c4 on the side of the engine.

A lot of that would be done before engaging. Remember, casters are tier 1-2, meaning they usually get to dictate the terms of engagement or whether it happens at all. For the mage hunter, getting close enough to use the Quarry ability (or to keep the mage close before Quarry becomes available) is half the fight, if not more.

Rakoa

2013-06-27, 03:42 PM

I would suggest making the True Seeing effect usable for a certain number of rounds per day, and becoming permanent at a higher level.

Yitzi

2013-06-27, 04:49 PM

I would suggest making the True Seeing effect usable for a certain number of rounds per day, and becoming permanent at a higher level.

I'd also want a permanent See Invisibility, so his target can't sneak past him, but that's a good idea.

Sparkzlight

2013-06-27, 05:25 PM

Much better than mine. :D

Well, I was too lazy to create custom abilities for the Spellslayer. Looks good!

Yitzi

2013-06-27, 05:38 PM

Much better than mine. :D

Well, I was too lazy to create custom abilities for the Spellslayer. Looks good!

More to the point, a Spellslayer fixes only half the problem. The reason casters are so overpowered is that they can do almost anything as well as the primary class for that thing, plus determine the terms of the engagement. That's why my goal wasn't just a mage slayer (who can beat the mage in a fight), but a mage hunter, who can force that fight to happen (using the quarry ability and a collection of skills that casters are fairly poor at countering.)

Belial_the_Leveler

2013-06-28, 04:16 AM

The class does not work as intended for the following reasons;

1) It is a better tank due to its defensive abilities and attacker due to its abilities to ignore armor than the fighter, barbarian and rogue and thus steals the spotlight from those classes (the very thing people accuse casters of doing)

2) In low levels (up to 12), it can kill any casually played caster but will die to any really optimized caster in a round or two. (mommy, why did the bad mage hit me with 4 walls of fire for 12d6+80 damage, no save?)

3) In high levels, a caster can say "lolz no" to your abilities in a bazillion ways. An invisible caster that is immune to divinations could stand in plain sight and pelt you with various attacks until you died because the class does not have a spot/listen skill. A caster with time stop or other extra action shenanigans can encase you in solid stone while time is stopped then coup-de-grace you once the time flow reverts - not that it needs to since encasing somebody in stone works even in normal play. A caster that turned some of their spells to supernatural abilities and can ignore antimagic is immune to all your anticaster powers.

4) In a party, the caster still steals the spotlight against most any enemy.

5) Spellcasters can (and probably should) get minions that are neither called nor summoned. Plane shift into another plane of existence, mindrape an outsider, then plane-shift back both yourself and the outsider. This cannot be dispelled and it is neither summoning nor calling.

In short, the class is a solid 7 in the brokenness scale, without any options of being varied at all. Thus, in a party with classes of less than rank 7 brokenness it is the very class that will cause problems instead of the wizard while against an overpowered wizard it will still fail because munchkin wizards will be at rank 10 brokenness.

Rolep

2013-06-28, 05:15 AM

I'm surprised that this hasn't been noticed but the dispel checks will almost always succeed.
Attacker: Level + CHA + d20
Defender: Level
Thus, the caster would have to be about 10-20 levels higher to have a decent chance of succeeding.

Also, this class, according to you, needs every ability score. This is MAD in a whole new level. Maybe try laser-pointing the ability scores a bit (all abilities based off CHA/INT, maybe?).

Love the Idea: some of the class abilities are really interesting.:smallbiggrin:

Belial_the_Leveler

2013-06-28, 05:39 AM

No the dispels will not always succeed. The low-level caster will pull off "wings of cover" out of his @ss (actually, their 2nd level slots) and tell the Mage-Hunter to go suck on their total cover against their dispelling strike. The high-level caster will go cheat and turn his spells into supernatural abilities so the dispelling doesn't work, or will shape an antimagic field around him (which he ignores himself) and negate all the supernatural abilities of the class outright. That assumes that the broken caster (which requires such a class to exist) will not pull off a trick to kill the Mage-Hunter in one round or something.

I mean, there were challenges in the playground where an enemy with almost-infinite stats and CR that killed the PC without any chance of failure in 2 rounds was beaten by nonepic wizards. :smalltongue:

Yitzi

2013-06-28, 10:10 AM

I'm surprised that this hasn't been noticed but the dispel checks will almost always succeed.
Attacker: Level + CHA + d20
Defender: Level
Thus, the caster would have to be about 10-20 levels higher to have a decent chance of succeeding.

Whoops; I meant to add 11 to the defense. Fixed.

Also, this class, according to you, needs every ability score.

It has use for every ability score; that's true of most classes. The only ones it really needs are CHA and maybe DEX, plus dabbling in WIS and CON.

It's probably about as MAD as a melee cleric build (who needs STR and WIS, and to dabble in CON and CHA)

Love the Idea: some of the class abilities are really interesting.:smallbiggrin:

Thanks.

No the dispels will not always succeed. The low-level caster will pull off "wings of cover" out of his @ss (actually, their 2nd level slots) and tell the Mage-Hunter to go suck on their total cover against their dispelling strike.

At which point the Mage-Hunter tries again the next round, as 2nd level slots are finite and dispelling strike is an at-will ability.

The high-level caster will go cheat and turn his spells into supernatural abilities so the dispelling doesn't work

Fixed.

or will shape an antimagic field around him (which he ignores himself) and negate all the supernatural abilities of the class outright.

Hmm...that does need to be dealt with. Done.

That assumes that the broken caster (which requires such a class to exist) will not pull off a trick to kill the Mage-Hunter in one round or something.

If you name such a trick, I'll try to find a way to make the Mage-Hunter immune. (Unless the trick consists of "find a bunch of noncaster friends".)

I mean, there were challenges in the playground where an enemy with almost-infinite stats and CR that killed the PC without any chance of failure in 2 rounds was beaten by nonepic wizards. :smalltongue:

You point to one, and I'll see what I can do.

Hanuman

2013-06-28, 05:08 PM

You're right. I'll fix that...perhaps limit it to when he's not wearing armor. That way, fairly few builds can use it as a dip, and it's more comparable to a monk dip (which doesn't give the save bonus, but does give a couple of nice feats and Flurry of Blows).

It also completely shuts down any counters based on True Strike.

I'd move it down, except that he really needs it there to deal with Invisibility and Mirror Image.

I think this plays into your next point:

I think that's more a criticism of the basic class idea than of how the class implements the idea. To that, all I have to say is that if a player wants to play it, that's his choice, and if not it can still make a good NPC.

I don't think so. More focus on offense is the last thing D&D needs; the rocket tag phenomenon is too strong as it is.

That said, he's not without strategic abilities; he's a mage hunter rather than a mage slayer, so he is designed to lure mages toward him (via his skill selection), then use Quarry on them and hunt them down.

He wouldn't be able to?

The "offensively focused combat anticaster" approach has been tried. It does not work.

If mages were in fact squishy glass cannons (i.e. easy to break, not very mobile) that might work. But they aren't.

And then you dispel the dominate and let the owlbear take its revenge.

Now, what a mage can do is team up with a rogue (who might help him avoid any ambushes you set) and a fighter (who can protect him; I intentionally made the class weak enough to lose to a fighter), and then you'd have to find allies and bring them in as well and it gets interesting.

A lot of that would be done before engaging. Remember, casters are tier 1-2, meaning they usually get to dictate the terms of engagement or whether it happens at all. For the mage hunter, getting close enough to use the Quarry ability (or to keep the mage close before Quarry becomes available) is half the fight, if not more.
@Dip
It's not that level 2 divine grace would be broken, because it isn't on a paladin, it's merely good. What's broken is the fact it's at level 1, gives you huge armor and the class inherently has good saves all-round.

Monk has scaling armor to make up for it not wearing armor and has good saves, paladin has divine grace to make up for it's bad saves.

However, the swordsage allows wis = ac and has decent saves, so balance-wise its probably best to go good saves or save bonus at level 2, armored scaling nontyped ac bonus, armor limitation and ac bonus.

To combine you could have either monk typed ac bonus or swordsage and have the saves specifically apply to magic, and that would be fine balance-wise.

@Invis/MirrorImage
The most elegant solution here is to give them a scaling bonus to perception (spot/listen) and then grant them a scaling ability to ignore concealment when their eyes are closed.
This is because if you generally know the location of an invisible target they count as fully concealed, mirror image is not invisible, but you cannot be effected by it if you can't see it, so you can just shut your eyes.

@RocketTag
Disagreed, there's different character playstyles and what you're building is pretty solidly a Debuff and a Striker, making it a tank is more like a warlock's DR, it's meant to save them if they get swarmed, where as with spells you could just as easily have /day effects that allow you to block, deflect, dodge, absorb, ect. since they are spells and not necessarily DPS or repeatable or consistent.

@Mage Hunter
Seems like the class needs some massive stealth and perception, you're putting it across like a Favored Enemy [Mage] ranger.

@Terms of Engagement
So that stands to reason that instead of being able to run up to a mage and strap antimagic handcuffs on him while catching bullets in your teeth that you should instead focus on more control over those terms in the first place.

Belial_the_Leveler

2013-06-28, 07:24 PM

The thing is that a spellcaster doesn't really need to kill you with spells directly. Here are several examples;

1) Ring-shaped wall spell around you. Open Gate to a place with magma or acid or similar environmental danger above you. Say hello to 20d6 nonmagical damage from total immersion till you can escape the trap.

2) Caster having mindraped powerful creatures into being his allies plane-shifts them to your location. You're toast.

3) Caster sufficiently buffed that they can kill you with at range in one round. (ever seen CoDzilla archers?)

4) Caster telekinetically hurling poison at your location. Potentially hurl 60 doses in one round = you statistically roll a natural 1 and get incapacitated for a minute. Then the caster shapechanges into a Pit Fiend and rips you to shreds.

5) Caster Time Stops, then teleports next to you, then covers you in solid stone while under the effects of Time Stop then teleports themselves away. Time resumes and you suffocate to death without ever realizing who attacked you.

See my point? A sufficiently powerful (broken) caster can kill you in ways that your defenses will not stop.

Hanuman

2013-06-28, 08:47 PM

The thing is that a spellcaster doesn't really need to kill you with spells directly. Here are several examples;

1) Ring-shaped wall spell around you. Open Gate to a place with magma or acid or similar environmental danger above you. Say hello to 20d6 nonmagical damage from total immersion till you can escape the trap.

2) Caster having mindraped powerful creatures into being his allies plane-shifts them to your location. You're toast.

3) Caster sufficiently buffed that they can kill you with at range in one round. (ever seen CoDzilla archers?)

4) Caster telekinetically hurling poison at your location. Potentially hurl 60 doses in one round = you statistically roll a natural 1 and get incapacitated for a minute. Then the caster shapechanges into a Pit Fiend and rips you to shreds.

5) Caster Time Stops, then teleports next to you, then covers you in solid stone while under the effects of Time Stop then teleports themselves away. Time resumes and you suffocate to death without ever realizing who attacked you.

See my point? A sufficiently powerful (broken) caster can kill you in ways that your defenses will not stop.
Agreed, but that is if he can "see" you coming, casters generally exist within their safe buffer zone of preparation.

Otherwise....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM5BYAGMUQE

Belial_the_Leveler

2013-06-28, 10:09 PM

The broken wizard doesn't care if you "kill" them. They were astrally projecting anyway and all your little victory did was return them to their private demiplane where the time passes exactly as fast or slow they want.

They'll be back as soon as they can reactivate the Astral Projection and shapechange to something immune to supernatural abilities.

Yitzi

2013-06-29, 10:50 PM

@Dip
It's not that level 2 divine grace would be broken, because it isn't on a paladin, it's merely good. What's broken is the fact it's at level 1, gives you huge armor and the class inherently has good saves all-round.

Now that it doesn't work with armor, it's no stronger than monk. And yes, he's got very good saves; that's part of the idea. Unfortunately for him, a lot of not-very-high-tier classes don't care how good your saves are.

To combine you could have either monk typed ac bonus

Done. CHA instead of WIS, but other than that it's the same (actually a bit weaker, as it doesn't progress.)

and have the saves specifically apply to magic

Most saves are against magic anyway; giving him the bonus against other things isn't such a big deal.

@Invis/MirrorImage
The most elegant solution here is to give them a scaling bonus to perception (spot/listen) and then grant them a scaling ability to ignore concealment when their eyes are closed.

The problem is that a bonus to spot/listen will also work against mundane concealment, which I don't want.

@RocketTag
Disagreed, there's different character playstyles and what you're building is pretty solidly a Debuff and a Striker, making it a tank is more like a warlock's DR, it's meant to save them if they get swarmed, where as with spells you could just as easily have /day effects that allow you to block, deflect, dodge, absorb, ect. since they are spells and not necessarily DPS or repeatable or consistent.

What I'm building isn't a conventional debuffer, in that he can never bring someone below default. He's also not a conventional striker, as he can't finish off a single enemy that quickly. What he does is ignore anything his target can throw at him while doing steady but not heavy damage. That's not exactly a conventional tank, as you said, but it's closer to a tank than anything else, in that it's fundamentally defensively oriented.

@Mage Hunter
Seems like the class needs some massive stealth and perception, you're putting it across like a Favored Enemy [Mage] ranger.

Why does he need stealth and perception? Mages aren't particularly good at either one. He's got Gather Info to track down the mage, Bluff and Disguise to get close, and Quarry to follow the mage if he teleports.

@Terms of Engagement
So that stands to reason that instead of being able to run up to a mage and strap antimagic handcuffs on him while catching bullets in your teeth that you should instead focus on more control over those terms in the first place.

I don't think so. Someone who can control the terms of engagement can use that to beat fighters by "engaging" through noncombat, and rogues by "engaging" through combat. Controlling the terms of engagement is what tier 1 does; this is meant to be a tier 4-5 who can beat tier 1.

The thing is that a spellcaster doesn't really need to kill you with spells directly. Here are several examples;

1) Ring-shaped wall spell around you. Open Gate to a place with magma or acid or similar environmental danger above you. Say hello to 20d6 nonmagical damage from total immersion till you can escape the trap.

2) Caster having mindraped powerful creatures into being his allies plane-shifts them to your location. You're toast.

3) Caster sufficiently buffed that they can kill you with at range in one round. (ever seen CoDzilla archers?)

4) Caster telekinetically hurling poison at your location. Potentially hurl 60 doses in one round = you statistically roll a natural 1 and get incapacitated for a minute. Then the caster shapechanges into a Pit Fiend and rips you to shreds.

5) Caster Time Stops, then teleports next to you, then covers you in solid stone while under the effects of Time Stop then teleports themselves away. Time resumes and you suffocate to death without ever realizing who attacked you.

1, 2, and 5, I could write counters to, but 3 and 4 are too problematic. Okay, I concede that the goal doesn't work; casters are just too broken due to their ability to imitate other classes so well.

The broken wizard doesn't care if you "kill" them. They were astrally projecting anyway and all your little victory did was return them to their private demiplane where the time passes exactly as fast or slow they want.

That's what Improved Quarry was for. You don't just kill them, you take them as a quarry first, so you can assault them in that private demiplane.

All the high-power tricks I could handle. It's the "pretend to be a fighter, but far better than the fighter can" stuff that makes "loses to fighter, beats wizard" unworkable.

Belial_the_Leveler

2013-06-30, 10:18 AM

You actually want to follow the wizard in their private demiplane? The place they set time and gravity and can prevent you from leaving with anything short of a wish spell? The place that can have a bazillion contingencies and traps? Good luck.

And yes, prepared casters can curbstomp you in a bazillion ways because they change the rules of the game. That is what makes them broken to begin with. An anti-caster class would have to be as broken as the casters themselves to counter them.

rweird

2013-06-30, 10:51 AM

I don't think that you should have it be level+Cha v.s. Level+11 for dispels, negating all CL boosts is a good thing, though being able to add Cha to your roll I think is just too much. Considering how Cha dependent this class is, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see someone with a Cha of 34 at 20th level (18 base, +5 inherent, +5 level, +6 enhancement), meaning against a balor's buffs (or 20th level wizard's), the dispel would be 1d20+32 against DC 31. If it is something which can't be dispelled, then he only has a 55% chance.

Also, you made the will progression wrong, it shouldn't end at +11 when at level 20. This isn't exactly the solution to mages, it just forces mages to adopt ridiculous tactics which requires another mage to defend against to be able to be a credible threat.

Seal Spells should be DC 10+1/2 Class level+Charisma Modifier, a Save or Lose which for maybe 10,000 GP could force the BBEG to make a save he needs a 20 on or lose pretty much all his powers isn't good game design, if a mage has a chance of passing a save against that, it would be almost assured he'd pass any other save thrown at him.

I like the idea, though being able to go "lol no" to most abilities casters have is not the way to go about it. How do you think a caster would be a challenge to this class?

Just to Browse

2013-07-02, 03:06 AM

Do not fall for belial's strange and counterproductive penis-wagging fight caster combat complex. An anti-caster should not be written with abilities that kill casters, he should be written with abilities that make him good at killing things and are also useful for killing casters. Ignoring crowd control, high mobility, planar travel, and physical stat drain are all good things, while dispel magic, tracing teleports, and AC bonuses versus spells are all bad.

If you try to build a class that can dimension hop and astral project and whatever, you're just going to make a crappy T4 class that's really good at beating a few cheesed builds. Some other caster build will escape your eye and in the meantime the class will be a one trick pony.

Hanuman

2013-07-02, 03:46 AM

Now that it doesn't work with armor, it's no stronger than monk. And yes, he's got very good saves; that's part of the idea. Unfortunately for him, a lot of not-very-high-tier classes don't care how good your saves are.

Done. CHA instead of WIS, but other than that it's the same (actually a bit weaker, as it doesn't progress.)

Most saves are against magic anyway; giving him the bonus against other things isn't such a big deal.

The problem is that a bonus to spot/listen will also work against mundane concealment, which I don't want.

What I'm building isn't a conventional debuffer, in that he can never bring someone below default. He's also not a conventional striker, as he can't finish off a single enemy that quickly. What he does is ignore anything his target can throw at him while doing steady but not heavy damage. That's not exactly a conventional tank, as you said, but it's closer to a tank than anything else, in that it's fundamentally defensively oriented.

Why does he need stealth and perception? Mages aren't particularly good at either one. He's got Gather Info to track down the mage, Bluff and Disguise to get close, and Quarry to follow the mage if he teleports.

I don't think so. Someone who can control the terms of engagement can use that to beat fighters by "engaging" through noncombat, and rogues by "engaging" through combat. Controlling the terms of engagement is what tier 1 does; this is meant to be a tier 4-5 who can beat tier 1.
@Dip
I've got no issue with it being unbalanced, but it isn't balanced.

@Saving Throws
Depends on campaign and instance, if it's horror then guess what your fort save is going to be doing.

@Stealth/Perception
Why is skill an issue when the class is based around countering those who hack reality? Do you want it to counter everything or what?
The reason for having these is to be able to infiltrate with a party, but by the sounds of it you're trying to make the character trap mages out in a tavern or something rather than infiltration. If that's what your party's into then sure.
'Was just going along with the theme of hunting, as in, stealth, perception, application and execution.

@Debuff
Stripper*

@Terms of Engagement
Rolling initiative doesn't happen until hostility, and a lot can be done before then both magical and nonmagical. Perhaps you should stick to your creative strengths though, enjoy your project =]

Yitzi

2013-07-02, 06:54 AM

An anti-caster should not be written with abilities that kill casters, he should be written with abilities that make him good at killing things and are also useful for killing casters.

But then he's not an anti-caster, he's yet another class that makes fighters cry, which isn't really needed.

@Dip
I've got no issue with it being unbalanced, but it isn't balanced.

How is it worse than monk?

@Saving Throws
Depends on campaign and instance, if it's horror then guess what your fort save is going to be doing.

Yes, the ability would be fairly nice there.

The reason for having these is to be able to infiltrate with a party, but by the sounds of it you're trying to make the character trap mages out in a tavern or something rather than infiltration. If that's what your party's into then sure.

The idea is mainly against mages who don't think they need a party.

@Terms of Engagement
Rolling initiative doesn't happen until hostility, and a lot can be done before then both magical and nonmagical.

Yes, and this class is meant to do well there, but not be able to delay it against a fighter, or force it to happen against a rogue.

Just to Browse

2013-07-02, 11:57 AM

But then he's not an anti-caster, he's yet another class that makes fighters cry, which isn't really needed.

wat.

First off, if you're planning on building a useful class, it will make the fighter cry, so that contention is kind of moot. Secondly (and there's really no other way to put this) you're just wrong about it not being an anti-caster. Anti-casters are bad for casters, and he would be bad for casters.

Yitzi

2013-07-02, 12:23 PM

wat.

First off, if you're planning on building a useful class, it will make the fighter cry

The goal was to make something that doesn't follow that. Something that a fighter can beat but a wizard can't.

Secondly (and there's really no other way to put this) you're just wrong about it not being an anti-caster. Anti-casters are bad for casters, and he would be bad for casters.

If something is bad for everyone, it's not really an anti-caster, as casters have nothing to do with it.

Just to Browse

2013-07-02, 12:29 PM

OH, I didn't understand your design goals. So you want a tier five class that can stop tier 1 classes from functioning. Well, that makes the system cry tears of blood but it's a viable concept and your current set up is doing that decently. I suggest the power to fool scrying and the ability to strip buffs with attack rolls (Stab a caster, remove his bear's endurance).

Yitzi

2013-07-02, 02:27 PM

OH, I didn't understand your design goals. So you want a tier five class that can stop tier 1 classes from functioning. Well, that makes the system cry tears of blood

Just the tier system, which is probably better imploded.

but it's a viable concept and your current set up is doing that decently.

Unless set against optimized casters...

I suggest the power to fool scrying

Good idea...Mind Blank blocks it eventually, but an earlier ability that gives misinformation might be better.

and the ability to strip buffs with attack rolls (Stab a caster, remove his bear's endurance).

This is already there, in the form of Dispelling Strike.

Hanuman

2013-07-02, 05:54 PM

[Tier5>MH>Tier1>Tier5] ?

Someone go to this guy's house, give him tome of battle, tear out the pages on fighter in his PH3.5 and then burn them.

Until then, good luck sir.

Yitzi

2013-07-02, 08:10 PM

[Tier5>MH>Tier1>Tier5] ?

Someone go to this guy's house, give him tome of battle, tear out the pages on fighter in his PH3.5 and then burn them.

Until then, good luck sir.

Even Tome of Battle classes won't make it any easier.

Also, fighter does have an elegance that ToB lacks.

Just to Browse

2013-07-02, 08:53 PM

The point hanuman is trying to get across is that what you're doing makes for a bad class. The definitive role of this Mage Slayer is that he kills the mages, but when it comes to literally anything else ever, the class is even worse than a fighter. That's bad game design, and it's why you're receiving a lot of friction.

Yitzi

2013-07-02, 10:33 PM

That's bad game design

Why is it bad game design? In my other thread, the consensus seems to be that having different characters good at different things is a good thing, so long as they're not completely useless outside their specialty (which this one isn't).

Just to Browse

2013-07-03, 12:05 AM

I think you're overestimating the capacity of your class. This guy is a caster assassin: he literally does nothing but aggro on casters. He's weaker than a fighter against anything nonmagical and he contributes equally to a fighter in non-combat scenarios. There really isn't anything here to help him.

Yitzi

2013-07-03, 07:18 AM

I think you're overestimating the capacity of your class. This guy is a caster assassin: he literally does nothing but aggro on casters. He's weaker than a fighter against anything nonmagical

Why is this a problem? There's plenty of magical stuff out there, particularly if playing with tier 1 casters (who then everybody who can be a caster, is.)

and he contributes equally to a fighter in non-combat scenarios.

Not true. He's no rogue, but he does have a few useful skills.

Just to Browse

2013-07-03, 01:32 PM

It's not magical, it's spell-using. He still sucks against attack-SLA users like outsiders, and he's still forced to specialize range because he can't fly, and he still can't do frontline combat because he has a d8 hit die.

And he actually is as bad as the fighter. He still has no spot/listen, a single knowledge skill that you're likely to not put points in, and he's a worse meatshield/trapspringer because he's MAD with a d8 hit die. He's like a monk against things that aren't casters, and then an OMGWTFBBQ nuclear assault against things that are casters (maybe).

Yitzi

2013-07-03, 01:51 PM

It's not magical, it's spell-using. He still sucks against attack-SLA users like outsiders, and he's still forced to specialize range because he can't fly, and he still can't do frontline combat because he has a d8 hit die.

So he's specialized. If 50% or more of significant characters are casters, that's not such a downside.

And he actually is as bad as the fighter. He still has no spot/listen, a single knowledge skill that you're likely to not put points in, and he's a worse meatshield/trapspringer because he's MAD with a d8 hit die.

And what about his Bluff and Gather Information? Those are useful skills...

Just to Browse

2013-07-03, 02:40 PM

Fifty percent???

If this class's usefulness is hinged on the pipe dream that half the monsters faced are casters (not SLA users, not magically buffed constructs, just casters), then it's definitely a bad class. There is no way around that.

And bluff/GI don't even put a dent in those problems. This guy could be put in a Tier 1 party against Tier 1 threats and still get outshined.

Yitzi

2013-07-03, 02:55 PM

Fifty percent???

Well, I figure at least 50% of characters could be tier 1-2 if they wanted to, and when given a choice between being a godlike caster and a fairly wimpy tier 3-5 class, why wouldn't you pick the former if you have the option?

True, this class won't work very well in a world where wizards aren't overpowered without it to counter them. It's not meant for such a world.

Just to Browse

2013-07-03, 04:28 PM

So monsters, when born, will decide not to be monsters and instead turn into single-classed wizards with no LA or HD? And people, when born, objectively understand how to be more powerful... and have access... and... and what???

Nevermind, the flaws of your design have been pointed out multiple times. You can acknowledge them and design an anti-mage that makes sense, or you can ignore them and call it a day. Hanuman has already been driven out, so I think it's high time for me to leave too. Good luck.

Yitzi

2013-07-03, 10:10 PM

So monsters, when born, will decide not to be monsters and instead turn into single-classed wizards with no LA or HD?

No, they'll simply be irrelevant because they can't.

And people, when born, objectively understand how to be more powerful... and have access... and... and what???

Hey, if PCs can do it, why not NPCs?

If you're making a dedicated anti-caster, you're generally making it for a world in which substantial optimization happens. This is no exception.

Hanuman

2013-07-03, 10:58 PM

Tier 5: Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well, or so unfocused that they have trouble mastering anything, and in many types of encounters the character cannot contribute. In some cases, can do one thing very well, but that one thing is very often not needed. Has trouble shining in any encounter unless the rest of the party is weak in that situation and the encounter matches their strengths. DMs may have to work to avoid the player feeling that their character is worthless unless the entire party is Tier 4 and below. Characters in this tier will often feel like one trick ponies if they do well, or just feel like they have no tricks at all if they build the class poorly.

The main issue is that you're trying to make a tier 5, that alone is bad class design.

Yitzi

2013-07-03, 11:50 PM

The main issue is that you're trying to make a tier 5, that alone is bad class design.

Why? In a tier 4-5 game, tier 5 is better class design than tier 1-3.

In any case, this is meant more as a tier 4: It's very good at what it does, but what it does is somewhat specialized. (Though less so in a fairly high-optimization game, as in such a game, assuming NPCs do the same thing as PCs, casters are fairly common and very important.)

Zanos

2013-07-04, 12:49 AM

So other people have established that this class is useless against non-casters.

How many high level casters do not have a considerable number of bound/gated walls of flesh protecting them?

Hanuman

2013-07-04, 01:10 AM

Why? In a tier 4-5 game, tier 5 is better class design than tier 1-3.
In a tier 4-5 game meeting the qualifications of the DM is good. Same with tier 6 games, it's good to play a commoner in those.

Does that mean commoner is a good PC class design?

Putting classes which make use of the action economy and are fun, creative and useful into a running game full of weak dull repetitive classes is not a problem with the higher tiers, it's a problem with the lower tiers.

Creating a low power class is totally ok, what we are critiquing is your choice to allow gimmicks that destroy high powered classes.

Yitzi

2013-07-04, 07:13 AM

So other people have established that this class is useless against non-casters.

How many high level casters do not have a considerable number of bound/gated walls of flesh protecting them?

It's not at all useless against bound/gated walls of flesh; one hit, and the mage's control breaks and you've got a new ally.

In a tier 4-5 game meeting the qualifications of the DM is good. Same with tier 6 games, it's good to play a commoner in those.

Does that mean commoner is a good PC class design?

Putting classes which make use of the action economy and are fun, creative and useful into a running game full of weak dull repetitive classes is not a problem with the higher tiers, it's a problem with the lower tiers.

Creating a low power class is totally ok, what we are critiquing is your choice to allow gimmicks that destroy high powered classes.

Why shouldn't there be a low-powered class that can destroy a high-powered class? If anything, that's going to improve balance, by weakening the status of "low-powered" and "high-powered".

Lord of Shadows

2013-07-04, 07:12 PM

True Seeing (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, a Mage Hunter gains the ability to use True Seeing, as the spell, for 5 rounds/day. At level 8, this increases to 50 rounds/day, and at level 13 he gains the ability to use it without restricting. Activating or deactivating this ability is a free action.

This is not considered a divination effect for the purpose of Mind Blank and similar abilities.

Just an idea.. perhaps make it a Standard action first, then a Move action, then a Swift action to activate it. Deactivation as a Free action seems fine.

Yitzi

2013-07-04, 09:39 PM

Just an idea.. perhaps make it a Standard action first, then a Move action, then a Swift action to activate it. Deactivation as a Free action seems fine.

Why? It's a fairly niche ability anyway, so making it free to activate and deactivate doesn't seem particularly problematic.

Zanos

2013-07-04, 10:05 PM

It's not at all useless against bound/gated walls of flesh; one hit, and the mage's control breaks and you've got a new ally

Gate and planar binding both have a duration of instantaneous. Typically the caster barters with the creature. There is no control to break, because no spell effect exists. Antimagic fields do not cause the control to break or the creature to unbind because binding a creature is not a continuous magical effect. A high level caster could easily bind a creature with any of the above spells and keep them on retainer for a month for less than what they make in a single encounter. A simulacrum has a one time cost and is effective for a similar reason.

While a dedicated mage hunter isn't an inherently poor idea, you have to realize why Wizards and other casters are tier 1/2. This isn't even getting into what a paranoid wizard would be doing with his contingencies. To make something that hunts Tier 1/2 characters you have to be prepared to counter nearly everything in the game because Tier 1 characters have access to nearly anything in the game. That is, by definition, what makes them tier 1.

Yitzi

2013-07-05, 12:22 AM

Gate and planar binding both have a duration of instantaneous. Typically the caster barters with the creature. There is no control to break, because no spell effect exists.

No; the spell still describes the existence of the ability to command the called creature. Without that, the creature often wouldn't work for the caster at all (especially for short Gates, which don't require bartering.)

So there is control, and this class has a specific ability that lets him break it even though it's not a normal spell effect.

Antimagic fields do not cause the control to break or the creature to unbind because binding a creature is not a continuous magical effect. A high level caster could easily bind a creature with any of the above spells and keep them on retainer for a month for less than what they make in a single encounter. A simulacrum has a one time cost and is effective for a similar reason.

Which is why I intentionally gave this class the ability to deal with those things.

While a dedicated mage hunter isn't an inherently poor idea, you have to realize why Wizards and other casters are tier 1/2. This isn't even getting into what a paranoid wizard would be doing with his contingencies. To make something that hunts Tier 1/2 characters you have to be prepared to counter nearly everything in the game because Tier 1 characters have access to nearly anything in the game. That is, by definition, what makes them tier 1.

Ok, I'll grant that, which is why in post 22 I conceded that the goal doesn't work. (And something that counters everything in the game still won't work, as that's an overpowered class rather than a dedicated mage hunter.)

Still, it is a worthy goal, and one that would greatly decrease the amount that wizards would need to be nerfed. (Though once you're nerfing them anyway, you could, and probably should, go far enough that this class is overkill.)

Belial_the_Leveler

2013-07-05, 05:40 AM

The points you are missing are these;

1) It works agaist average wizard tactics, not truly broken ones. The average wizard will Gate an enemy which you can remove the control from. The overpowered wizard will Gate under time stop however many it takes to kill you in one round of melee before you get a chance to "free" them. The broken wizard has his own private demiplane where there are a thousand huge-sized minions with a huge bow each. He opens a gate to it near you and they fire a thousand times in your face through the opened gate. You are hit 50 times due to natural 20s regardless of your AC, for 100d8+500 damage and die with no save. And the wizard pays no XP for that because he didn't actually summon a creature. So the broken wizards still beat you.

Solution: you can't outfight a broken character without being broken too. Find ways to reasonably prevent them from being broken in the first place rather than counter their brokenness.

2) It only works if you fight casters. In a normal campaign, 20% of encounters will be social, 20% will be traps/skill related, 40% will be monster fights without spellcasting and 20% will be monster/NPC fights with spellcasting (and I'm skewing the ratios in your favor here).
Your class will be able to do more than the wizard maybe 20% of the time. The wizard will be able to do more than everybody else 80% of the time. So it doesn't stop casters from being overpowered even if it can kill them.

Solution: A class built as being reactive is never going to work well. It needs to be proactive and varied instead.

3) It uses mechanics that break the game both flavor-wise and rules-wise. Most of its abilities are one big exception - divinations that aren't divination, being able to "dispel" spells even when there are no spells to dispel, ignoring many effects and so on and so forth. Such abilities are convoluted and bad game design. So most GMs that see it will discard it out of hand either because they don't like the mechanics or because its abilities don't make sense flavor-wise.

Solution: build the class either following existing mechanics or introducing new mechanics, don't have it breaking existing mechanics and have a crapload of exceptions. And try to have everything work flavor-wise.

Yitzi

2013-07-05, 07:07 AM

The points you are missing are these;

1) It works agaist average wizard tactics, not truly broken ones.

I'm not missing that fact, I just don't see any way to deal with it via this approach (there probably aren't any). Though I'm wondering how the truly broken wizard gets infinite time stops.

2) It only works if you fight casters. In a normal campaign

In a normal campaign, wizards aren't even halfway broken (what you call average wizard tactics), as if they were you'd see a lot more casters than you do in a normal campaign simply because people want to be the best.

3) It uses mechanics that break the game both flavor-wise and rules-wise. Most of its abilities are one big exception - divinations that aren't divination, being able to "dispel" spells even when there are no spells to dispel, ignoring many effects and so on and so forth. Such abilities are convoluted and bad game design. So most GMs that see it will discard it out of hand either because they don't like the mechanics or because its abilities don't make sense flavor-wise.

Solution: build the class either following existing mechanics or introducing new mechanics, don't have it breaking existing mechanics and have a crapload of exceptions. And try to have everything work flavor-wise.

I suppose this is a problem...but that's mainly because wizards get that sort of mechanics as well (spells that aren't spells, etc.)

So yes, the basic idea has some substantial flaws, but what do you expect me to do about it now that the thread's been posted already?

Hanuman

2013-07-05, 05:35 PM

So yes, the basic idea has some substantial flaws, but what do you expect me to do about it now that the thread's been posted already?
You could change the class, but honestly you've been busy pushing people away with design inertia, you may want to just re-post.

Yitzi

2013-07-06, 10:09 PM

You could change the class

To what? The problem isn't that the class is badly designed for its purpose (that, I could, would, and did change), it's that the purpose itself is fundamentally impossible.