deepbluehum wrote: If they were truly pure visions, they would be Sambhogakaya.

Whatever you like to believe.

I am not going to discuss this further on an open forum.

M

Of course. As for me I only quoted a openly edited Dzogchen book for all and my note on some non-secret remark from Rinpoche. The definition on first and second Marigpa with the "return" according to the definition from the book for me is an anology to your previous answer on the visions

muni wrote:Limitations don't give up trying to find correct glasses to put on the nose in order to see what cannot be seen so.

Maybe this:

"Mind is the basis of samsara and nirvana.
Once you realize (its nature), rest in the ease of non-meditation.
Other than within yourself, to look for it elsewhere is completely deluded.
There is nothing of “It is this,” “It is not this.”
Everything abides within the natural state".

Okay, not this...

Then may blessings enter.

The "Okay" is the key point.

It has been called, "floppy floppy Merigar style."

Sometimes it is called, "Would you rather be right or have a warm bed?"

Sometimes I just call it, the "BIG OK."

Sometimes I don't call it anything.

Within this "Okay" beyond any name, or characteristic, what-so-ever, all philosophical systems, and personal differences, are resolved.

Beyond any hope of understanding, or fear of not understanding, I understand that there is no contradiction in any of Lord Buddha's teachings.

"Okay". The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying by SOGYAL RINPOCHE explains what will happen to ordinary people (who did not practise the real Dzogchen, the Dzogchen after the recognition because of Direct Introduction from the master):

THE EXPERIENCE OF DEATH, for most people, will
simply mean passing into a state of oblivion at the end of the
process of dying. The three stages of the inner dissolution can
be as quick, it is sometimes said, as three snaps of a finger.
The white and red essences of father and mother meet at the
heart, and the black experience called "full attainment" arises.
The Ground Luminosity dawns, but we fail to recognize it
and we faint into unconsciousness.
As I have said, this is the first failure to recognize, or stage
of ignorance, called Ma Rigpa in Tibetan, the opposite of
Rigpa. This marks the beginning in us of another cycle of samsara,
which was interrupted for an instant at the moment of
death. The bardo of dharmata then occurs, and it simply
flashes past, unrecognized. This is the second failure of recognition,
a second stage of ignorance, Ma Rigpa.
The first thing that we are aware of is "as if the sky and
earth were separating again": We suddenly awaken into the
intermediate state that lies between death and a new rebirth.
This is called the bardo of becoming, the sipa bardo, and is the
third bardo of death.

After this process no guarantee your rebirth will be as human, more people are going to be animals. So, Good Luck!

Mariusz wrote:"Okay". The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying by SOGYAL RINPOCHE explains what will happen to ordinary people (who did not practise the real Dzogchen, the Dzogchen after the recognition because of Direct Introduction from the master):

THE EXPERIENCE OF DEATH, for most people, will
simply mean passing into a state of oblivion at the end of the
process of dying. The three stages of the inner dissolution can
be as quick, it is sometimes said, as three snaps of a finger.
The white and red essences of father and mother meet at the
heart, and the black experience called "full attainment" arises.
The Ground Luminosity dawns, but we fail to recognize it
and we faint into unconsciousness.
As I have said, this is the first failure to recognize, or stage
of ignorance, called Ma Rigpa in Tibetan, the opposite of
Rigpa. This marks the beginning in us of another cycle of samsara,
which was interrupted for an instant at the moment of
death. The bardo of dharmata then occurs, and it simply
flashes past, unrecognized. This is the second failure of recognition,
a second stage of ignorance, Ma Rigpa.
The first thing that we are aware of is "as if the sky and
earth were separating again": We suddenly awaken into the
intermediate state that lies between death and a new rebirth.
This is called the bardo of becoming, the sipa bardo, and is the
third bardo of death.

After this process no guarantee your rebirth will be as human, more people are going to be animals. So, Good Luck!

Mariusz wrote:"Okay". The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying by SOGYAL RINPOCHE explains what will happen to ordinary people (who did not practise the real Dzogchen, the Dzogchen after the recognition because of Direct Introduction from the master):

THE EXPERIENCE OF DEATH, for most people, will
simply mean passing into a state of oblivion at the end of the
process of dying. The three stages of the inner dissolution can
be as quick, it is sometimes said, as three snaps of a finger.
The white and red essences of father and mother meet at the
heart, and the black experience called "full attainment" arises.
The Ground Luminosity dawns, but we fail to recognize it
and we faint into unconsciousness.
As I have said, this is the first failure to recognize, or stage
of ignorance, called Ma Rigpa in Tibetan, the opposite of
Rigpa. This marks the beginning in us of another cycle of samsara,
which was interrupted for an instant at the moment of
death. The bardo of dharmata then occurs, and it simply
flashes past, unrecognized. This is the second failure of recognition,
a second stage of ignorance, Ma Rigpa.
The first thing that we are aware of is "as if the sky and
earth were separating again": We suddenly awaken into the
intermediate state that lies between death and a new rebirth.
This is called the bardo of becoming, the sipa bardo, and is the
third bardo of death.

After this process no guarantee your rebirth will be as human, more people are going to be animals. So, Good Luck!

Except that this is not a Dzogchen teaching and is the type of explanation that is anything but free from limitation. In fact these types of explanation and teaching have more to do with building organizations than with Dzogchen.

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

Andrew108 wrote:
Except that this is not a Dzogchen teaching and is the type of explanation that is anything but free from limitation. In fact these types of explanation and teaching have more to do with building organizations than with Dzogchen.

Huh? Of course it's a Dzogchen teaching.

Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

Andrew108 wrote:
Except that this is not a Dzogchen teaching and is the type of explanation that is anything but free from limitation. In fact these types of explanation and teaching have more to do with building organizations than with Dzogchen.

Huh? Of course it's a Dzogchen teaching.

If people are not already buddhists, they easy protest like it. However, according to the realized masters of Dzogchen, ordinary life leads to suffering, mostly to lower realms. It is sad true, the preliminary true, the outer Ngondro. So, we have to "limit" now ourselves in order to find the master and recognize, after it practise the real Dzogchen

Andrew108 wrote:
Except that this is not a Dzogchen teaching and is the type of explanation that is anything but free from limitation. In fact these types of explanation and teaching have more to do with building organizations than with Dzogchen.

Huh? Of course it's a Dzogchen teaching.

If people are not already buddhists, they easy protest like it. However, according to the realized masters of Dzogchen, ordinary life leads to suffering, mostly to lower realms. It is sad true, the preliminary true, the outer Ngondro. So, we have to "limit" now ourselves in order to find the master and recognize, after it practise the real Dzogchen

I don't see what it has to do with being a Buddhist or not. Dzogchen Tantras have teachings on the bardo. Actually I'm not entirely sure if they're not actually their source. But in any case that is why it is funny to say it's not a Dzogchen teaching.

Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

Pero wrote:
I don't see what it has to do with being a Buddhist or not. Dzogchen Tantras have teachings on the bardo. Actually I'm not entirely sure if they're not actually their source. But in any case that is why it is funny to say it's not a Dzogchen teaching.

Phowa is not a specfically Dzogchen teaching.

The four or six bardo scheme is specifically Dzogchen and is not found in the gsar ma tantras, the main source for the teaching on bardos is nyi zla kha sbyor rgyud.

Pero wrote:
I don't see what it has to do with being a Buddhist or not. Dzogchen Tantras have teachings on the bardo. Actually I'm not entirely sure if they're not actually their source. But in any case that is why it is funny to say it's not a Dzogchen teaching.

Phowa is not a specfically Dzogchen teaching.

Well I didn't know that but I think you missed the right thread with this one.

The four or six bardo scheme is specifically Dzogchen and is not found in the gsar ma tantras, the main source for the teaching on bardos is nyi zla kha sbyor rgyud.

Thanks!

Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

Pero wrote:
I don't see what it has to do with being a Buddhist or not. Dzogchen Tantras have teachings on the bardo. Actually I'm not entirely sure if they're not actually their source. But in any case that is why it is funny to say it's not a Dzogchen teaching.

Hi Pero. The point that Dzogchen teachings are free from limitations means that there does not exist a 'specifically' buddhist cause that results in Dzogchen. There is no dying to be done.

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

Wisdom has no need to try to cut buddhism from dzogchen since the only difference is method; the buddhist teachings are leading toward nondual nature and then buddhahood and dzogchen starts from nondual and then buddhahood. There is no need to cut something for those who have understanding of the nondual mind. And there is automatically genuine love for all the teachings since they are helping all beings to see how they are free or peaceful. How wonderful! Bodhichitta has not such natural aspect to look down to other practices. This cannot by understanding nature, since it is extreme and extreme is fixation, grasping.
But one is not bound by "other" buddhist practices at all, there is only bound when own mind has not realized its nature. Own mind is what need investigation, then it is clear there is no any apprehended dharma (by which there can be quarrel of my practice is right, yours not...), apprehended tradition or habit harming or blocking nature other than own ignorance/clinging. In nondual is no ignorance and so limitations aren't.

Possible this is what is been meant all the time here. Thank you.

Buddha said all is empty like my brain.
Let’s make a selfie!

Having meditated on love and compassion, I forgot the difference between myself and others. Yogi Milarepa.

Pero wrote:
I don't see what it has to do with being a Buddhist or not. Dzogchen Tantras have teachings on the bardo. Actually I'm not entirely sure if they're not actually their source.

No need for protest because of the reincarnation. Buddhists are familiar with the term reincarnation according to 12 links. There is Lamrim and buddhist tantras with the process of death, the Bardo state, the rebirth, for example Guhyasamaja Tantra. Guhyasamaja Tantra is older than Dzogchen tantras according to historians as I know.

Pero wrote:
I don't see what it has to do with being a Buddhist or not. Dzogchen Tantras have teachings on the bardo. Actually I'm not entirely sure if they're not actually their source. But in any case that is why it is funny to say it's not a Dzogchen teaching.

Hi Pero. The point that Dzogchen teachings are free from limitations means that there does not exist a 'specifically' buddhist cause that results in Dzogchen.

What? There was nothing in that quote about a "specifically Buddhist" cause.

There is no dying to be done.

Oh really? Slit your throat then.
edit: I'm not serious of course. Don't think you're that big of an idiot but wanted to make that clear just in case.

Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

Pero wrote:
I don't see what it has to do with being a Buddhist or not. Dzogchen Tantras have teachings on the bardo. Actually I'm not entirely sure if they're not actually their source.

No need for protest because of the reincarnation. Buddhists are familiar with the term reincarnation according to 12 links. There is Lamrim and buddhist tantras with the process of death, the Bardo state, the rebirth, for example Guhyasamaja Tantra. Guhyasamaja Tantra is older than Dzogchen tantras according to historians as I know.

Moreover, according to the dzogchen nyinthig book I quoted, when the Mind arises because of the third Marigpa, the rebirth will be soon because of the same process of buddhist 12 Links of Dependent Origination!

Pero wrote: Oh really? Slit your throat then.
edit: I'm not serious of course. Don't think you're that big of an idiot but wanted to make that clear just in case.

Realization is realization wherever it comes from and provisional teachings are just that - meant to be provisional. It's better not to mix the two.

Realization from the Kagyu tradition:

''Obtaining high rebirth or liberation and
Falling into the three unhappy destinations
These distinctions don't exist in the pure expanse -
So! How joyful! How happy! Sudden victory!

The mind busy with perceived and perceiver and
The peaceful state of non-conceptuality
These distinctions don't exist in the pure expanse -
So! How joyful! How happy! Sudden victory!''
Gyalwa Götsangpa

And also:

''At the feet of Marpa I bow
From meditating here and there in natural retreats
I've gained confidence that there is no arising
This swept away my taking past and future lives as two
Exposed all six realm' appearances as false
And cut right through believing all too much in birth and death

I've gained confidence in everything as equal
This swept away my taking happiness and grief as two
Exposed the ups and downs of feelings as false
And cut believing there are some to have and some to shun

In inseparability I've gained confidence
This swept away samsara and nirvana seen as two
Exposed the excercise of paths and levels as false
And cut right through believing all too much in hope and fear.''
Je Milarepa

It's better to not mistake Dzogchen with anything that is provisional. If we do mix Dzogchen with the provisional then we denigrate it.

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

It's better to not mistake Dzogchen with anything that is provisional. If we do mix Dzogchen with the provisional then we denigrate it.

Hm those pesky Dzogchen Tantras, denigrating Dzogchen. How dare they!

I can't find anything provisional in the the Kunjed Gyalpo.

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

When Guru Rinpoche thaught Yeshe Tsogyal about all dharmas and dharmata, he said that all dharmas are whether wholesome, unwholesome or neutral phenomena.

Dharmata means that they are all empty in essence, empty by nature, empty by characteristics. Dharmata is the realization that ALL phenomena arise from the mind which is emptiness.
This is the point of realizing the nonduality of dharmas and dharmata.

One of his explanation in dissolving limitations. Phenomena liberated in themselves.

Buddha said all is empty like my brain.
Let’s make a selfie!

Having meditated on love and compassion, I forgot the difference between myself and others. Yogi Milarepa.