This video definitely settles it for me, high velocity light weight bullets are not the best option for SD. Sure, this bullet really expanded violently, but 9" penetration is worse than most .380ACPs.

I think 124 +p is kind of a sweet spot for 9mm- it expands well but still penetrates adequately, but I think I would never pick an SD round lighter and faster than that. This video makes me want to lean towards 147 standard pressure.

Berto

07-15-2012, 21:40

That's damn impressive velocity. Corbon used to load 9mm +P and .38sp +P+ 115gr to the same chrono'd velocities, they were also shallow penetrators and usually fragged.
Still, starfish expansion like that just looks fearsome.

Glock40man

07-15-2012, 21:43

Wow, that is fast!

Foxtrotx1

07-15-2012, 22:05

Thats impressive for both the loading and the GD. Personally, I think the 124 grain +P offering from Underwood is the best.

BTW there is another vid on you tube showing this stuff going almost 1500 out of a 5 inch barrel.

cowboy1964

07-15-2012, 22:21

Yeah, 9" penetration is no better than a .380. Doesn't matter how large it expands to if it doesn't go deep enough.

Not to mention the wear on your gun, the difference in feel between this and your practice ammo, etc, etc, etc.

Metal Angel

07-15-2012, 22:22

Thats impressive for both the loading and the GD. Personally, I think the 124 grain +P offering from Underwood is the best.

BTW there is another vid on you tube showing this stuff going almost 1500 out of a 5 inch barrel.

I believe it. Too lazy to watch the vid again to confirm, but his average was something like 1440 out of the Glock 19. I think everyone knows the Glock 19 produces high velocities for what it is, but I bet this load would haul ass out of a Glock 34.

Metal Angel

07-15-2012, 22:25

Yeah, 9" penetration is no better than a .380. Doesn't matter how large it expands to if it doesn't go deep enough.

Not to mention the wear on your gun, the difference in feel between this and your practice ammo, etc, etc, etc.

Yup. These reasons make me think I should be running 147 standard pressure, just to be on the safe side. 124 +p has a good track record though, so that's what I'm running now.

M&P15T

07-16-2012, 06:04

I would be very confident carrying that ammo. With it's tremendous wounding abilities, I wouldn't worry about it's shallow penetration.

That's my opinion, others may think differently about it. In fact, I carry Corbon's 115GR JHP, which is advertised to hit the same type of velocities.

SigFTW

07-16-2012, 06:22

Very impressive SD round and a great price for 50 count.

kjunderwood

07-16-2012, 08:33

Yup. These reasons make me think I should be running 147 standard pressure, just to be on the safe side. 124 +p has a good track record though, so that's what I'm running now.

I absolutely know this round isn't for everyone. I try to offer a bit of everything to appeal to those who want expansion and other loads to those who prefer penetration. These are intended specifically for massive tissue damage without over penetration. This is 100% of energy on target that, for the average individual/ two-legged animal, will be right at the back or darn near exiting.

If you're looking for penetration, we offer regular +P 115gr or go up to our 124gr and you have +P or +P+ options.

In the next few weeks, we're also launching our 147gr Gold Dots, as well.

WiskyT

07-16-2012, 08:44

It's irresponsible to sell +P+ ammo in generic Starline brass. Once it gets passed around a bit, no one will have any idea what it is.

kjunderwood

07-16-2012, 09:05

It's irresponsible to sell +P+ ammo in generic Starline brass. Once it gets passed around a bit, no one will have any idea what it is.

Starline's brass is the same, regardless of headstamp. At first, we didn't want to charge our customers more money just to have a custom headstamp read +p ...however, our last order placed we did bump up to the +p headstamp to alleviate any questions such as this.

Again, it is the exact same brass, just a change of headstamp.

Foxtrotx1

07-16-2012, 09:50

It's irresponsible to sell +P+ ammo in generic Starline brass. Once it gets passed around a bit, no one will have any idea what it is.

It's the responsibility of the person shooting a gun to know what they have loaded up.

Nanny state much?

WiskyT

07-16-2012, 09:55

Starline's brass is the same, regardless of headstamp. At first, we didn't want to charge our customers more money just to have a custom headstamp read +p ...however, our last order placed we did bump up to the +p headstamp to alleviate any questions such as this.

Again, it is the exact same brass, just a change of headstamp.

I understand that. But the ammo is not marked +P+. Once it's out of the box, there is no way to know what it is. If the ammo exceeds SAAMI pressure, it should be marked in some way. It doesn't even have a brand on it.

Why mark the new brass "+P" when it is +P+ ammo? Why not commission Starline to put your own headstamp on it with a +P+ designation, it's not that much money amortized over a large lot of ammo.

Foxtrotx1

07-16-2012, 09:59

I understand that. But the ammo is not marked +P+. Once it's out of the box, there is no way to know what it is. If the ammo exceeds SAAMI pressure, it should be marked in some way. It doesn't even have a brand on it.

Why mark the new brass "+P" when it is +P+ ammo? Why not commission Starline to put your own headstamp on it with a +P+ designation, it's not that much money amortized over a large lot of ammo.

It's not Underwood's problem if it's removed from the box.

WiskyT

07-16-2012, 10:01

It's the responsibility of the person shooting a gun to know what they have loaded up.

Nanny state much?

No. The industry standard, what we teach all shooters, even housewives and other casual shooters, is to make sure the markings on the ammunition match the markings on the gun and in the guns manual. This ammo exceeds industry pressures and is marked simply "9mm". It's not nanny sate, it's common sense. Maybe all electrical receptacles should be identical and anyone who doesn't test for voltage on every outlet deserves to have a fire or their equipment destroyed.

WiskyT

07-16-2012, 10:03

It's not Underwood's problem if it's removed from the box.

Well that's all that really matters isn't it? :upeyes:

kjunderwood

07-16-2012, 10:15

I understand that. But the ammo is not marked +P+. Once it's out of the box, there is no way to know what it is. If the ammo exceeds SAAMI pressure, it should be marked in some way. It doesn't even have a brand on it.

Why mark the new brass "+P" when it is +P+ ammo? Why not commission Starline to put your own headstamp on it with a +P+ designation, it's not that much money amortized over a large lot of ammo.

We are in the process of working with Starline to get our own headstamp. That way, we can have it marked however we like. You're correct, it's not "that much money" to have it marked, however - it will increase the price of the rounds, which as a business I try to avoid. $750 per caliber spread out over 50 plus calibers to have our headstamp is quite the business expense that needs to be budgeted for. Easily over $40,000 with +P, +P+, and standard markings where such options are offered. We're working on it, and there's not much more that can be said. If we instituted the same mark-ups other ammo manufacturers do (which is double or more) we would have no problem doing it. I prefer to run my business differently and offer quality at a more affordable price.

I do understand your point, and am just letting you know it's in the works.

WiskyT

07-16-2012, 10:57

We are in the process of working with Starline to get our own headstamp. That way, we can have it marked however we like. You're correct, it's not "that much money" to have it marked, however - it will increase the price of the rounds, which as a business I try to avoid. $750 per caliber spread out over 50 plus calibers to have our headstamp is quite the business expense that needs to be budgeted for. Easily over $40,000 with +P, +P+, and standard markings where such options are offered. We're working on it, and there's not much more that can be said. If we instituted the same mark-ups other ammo manufacturers do (which is double or more) we would have no problem doing it. I prefer to run my business differently and offer quality at a more affordable price.

I do understand your point, and am just letting you know it's in the works.

I could see why you want to have your own company headstamp. But I don't think it's necessary from a safety point of view. I would consider doing the +P+ rounds first, then doing the less critical ones for branding purposes as your budget allows.

I do appreciate your responsiveness. Many small manufacturers, ammo and other gun stuff, come across as very defensive. I made a criticism of your product, and you responded in what I think is an appropriate way. Good luck with your venture.

glock_19guy1983

07-16-2012, 11:18

I could see why you want to have your own company headstamp. But I don't think it's necessary from a safety point of view. I would consider doing the +P+ rounds first, then doing the less critical ones for branding purposes as your budget allows.

I do appreciate your responsiveness. Many small manufacturers, ammo and other gun stuff, come across as very defensive. I made a criticism of your product, and you responded in what I think is an appropriate way. Good luck with your venture.

Well most people tend to defend themselves when they are needlessly attacked. Its the consumers responsibility to know what they are putting in their gun. If an open class 9mm major shooter accidentally leaves a live round on the ground at the range and some fool picks it up and shoots it in their glock and blows it up, who's fault is it? the guy that dropped the bullet or the guy that shot a bullet of unknown origin?

fnfalman

07-16-2012, 11:36

I'm gonna have to try some of these Underwood ammo. The prices are quite reasonable.

WiskyT

07-16-2012, 11:47

Well most people tend to defend themselves when they are needlessly attacked. Its the consumers responsibility to know what they are putting in their gun. If an open class 9mm major shooter accidentally leaves a live round on the ground at the range and some fool picks it up and shoots it in their glock and blows it up, who's fault is it? the guy that dropped the bullet or the guy that shot a bullet of unknown origin?

Irrelevant, no one was attacked, needlessly or otherwise. Nice try at interjecting drama where none is needed.

Wishoot

07-16-2012, 11:52

I'm gonna have to try some of these Underwood ammo. The prices are quite reasonable.

Underwood produces some excellent ammo. Bought several boxes of 44 mag and 357 mag a couple of weeks ago. It was delivered promptly and it's clean shooting, top notch stuff. I don't have a chrony , so I can't speak to velocities. Sure felt like it was moving like crazy out of my Winchester 94.

I'll be ordered more in .40 and 9mm very soon.

cowboywannabe

07-16-2012, 11:57

i have shot UW ammo that my friends and co-workers have in 10mm and 9mm. this is good stuff. quality, reliability, affordability are stardards with UW.

in a nut shell, you get more than you pay for with UW. you cant say that with any other ammo maker. you will pay others more without more performance, or pay others less with less performance.

cowboy1964

07-16-2012, 12:28

in a nut shell, you get more than you pay for with UW. you cant say that with any other ammo maker. you will pay others more without more performance, or pay others less with less performance.

Sorry but I don't consider 9" of penetration "more performance".

cowboywannabe

07-16-2012, 12:34

Sorry but I don't consider 9" of penetration "more performance".

thats because youre wanting to use this round in a police type application where intermediate barriers might be encountered. that is the reason the fbi suggest 12" of penetration in balgel.

balgel is homogenous, the human body is not.

if you want more penetration you can go with a slower load from UW. you will still get more from them than any other maker.

TactiCool

07-16-2012, 12:45

Yeah, this looks like good stuff, but I'm still a big fan of 9BPLE and will probably stick with that load for SD for the foreseeable future. It won't stop me from picking up a box for testing though.

cowboywannabe

07-16-2012, 12:48

Yeah, this looks like good stuff, but I'm still a big fan of 9BPLE and will probably stick with that load for SD for the foreseeable future. It won't stop me from picking up a box for testing though.

Tac, it looks like this load is modeled after the federal load you prefer. how is the price comparison for each?

4 glocks

07-16-2012, 12:57

Sorry but I don't consider 9" of penetration "more performance".

Some people may consider a 90 cal. 9mm more performance. This round is not for max pentration, but max energy dump with great expansion. I have never seen any 9mm expand to .90 of a inch.

Foxtrotx1

07-16-2012, 13:01

Well that's all that really matters isn't it? :upeyes:

Why don't we make all re loaders follow these rules while we are at it. :upeyes:

fnfalman

07-16-2012, 13:08

Sorry but I don't consider 9" of penetration "more performance".

Depends on how big of a swath of destruction that round cuts.

Last I checked not every thieves, rapists, murders weigh in at 350-lbs with a 50" waistline.

Foxtrotx1

07-16-2012, 13:17

Depends on how big of a swath of destruction that round cuts.

Last I checked not every thieves, rapists, murders weigh in at 350-lbs with a 50" waistline.

Even if it hits a rib on the way in, the bullet ain't gonna fragment, that sucker is bonded in the 40 watt range.

WiskyT

07-16-2012, 13:46

Why don't we make all re loaders follow these rules while we are at it. :upeyes:

Just let it go. The guy that made the video, even the the guy that makes the ammo, disagree with you. It's over.

elliotb33

07-16-2012, 13:55

Tac, it looks like this load is modeled after the federal load you prefer. how is the price comparison for each?

9bple is 18 bucks on CTD.

Metal Angel

07-16-2012, 14:01

Yeah, this looks like good stuff, but I'm still a big fan of 9BPLE and will probably stick with that load for SD for the foreseeable future. It won't stop me from picking up a box for testing though.

By label, this round looks deceptively similar to 9BPLE, however the performance is quite different. The hollow point design in the 9BPLE is very small and has no petals so it does not expand as much and penetrates much deeper. I don't think you will get much more than .55 inches expansion with the 9BPLE, but penetration will be closer to 15". I prefer that kind of performance, but each has to decide for himself.

Glockdude1

07-16-2012, 14:06

I would love to know what that ammo would chrono out of a 16" Uzi barrel.

:cool:

cowboywannabe

07-16-2012, 14:09

9bple is 18 bucks on CTD.

$18.00 for how many rounds (20)? how much is shipping (since you mention buying on line)?

i havent looked at this (CTD) to know what youve seen. but ive seen that per 50 rounds of quality hollow point ammo in new brass, not reloaded, that meets or slightly exceeds velocity claims in real world guns, UW has them beat.

can you get good new ammo from others that meets its velocity claims? sure and you will pay more for it, but why?

Metal Angel

07-16-2012, 14:10

Sorry but I don't consider 9" of penetration "more performance".

That's like saying a top fuel dragster does not have good performance because it can't corner well. Personally I prefer a car that can hold corners better than go fast in a straight line, but I'm not about to say a supercharged 68 mustang with 500 horsepower has poor performance because it doesn't handle corners well. It's just different performance.

Likewise, I prefer a load that prioritizes penetration over expansion, but some people prefer just the opposite. For those people, this load is extremely high performance. I don't know what the receiver of the bullet will prefer, and neither do you, so each person has to guess and buy a load based on that guess.

Metal Angel

07-16-2012, 14:17

I would love to know what that ammo would chrono out of a 16" Uzi barrel.

:cool:

4.5 bazzilion fps.

:rofl:

Seriously though, I wouldn't be surprised if it was in the mid 1700s. Cor-Bon's 90 +p chronos the same out of a 4" barrel and hits 1740 out of a 16" barrel.

cowboywannabe

07-16-2012, 14:21

i didnt catch it but does anyone know the %, temp/type, and method of calibration for the balgel used in that video? just sayin' any round can be made to look most any way with balgel made to get specific results.

Metal Angel

07-16-2012, 15:29

i didnt catch it but does anyone know the %, temp/type, and method of calibration for the balgel used in that video? just sayin' any round can be made to look most any way with balgel made to get specific results.

He calibrates to FBI standards and posts the exact calibration at the beginning of the video (and each video he does). The BB calibration was 3.7" and he uses 4 layers of denim. He also gave ambient temp and gel temp. You should actually watch the video before you accuse him of cheating.

elliotb33

07-16-2012, 18:26

$18.00 for how many rounds (20)? how much is shipping (since you mention buying on line)?

i havent looked at this (CTD) to know what youve seen. but ive seen that per 50 rounds of quality hollow point ammo in new brass, not reloaded, that meets or slightly exceeds velocity claims in real world guns, UW has them beat.

can you get good new ammo from others that meets its velocity claims? sure and you will pay more for it, but why?

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/AMM-406
My bad it's only $17.49 for 50. I bought 21 boxes and with shipping it came out to like $18.50-$19 bucks something around there.

This video definitely settles it for me, high velocity light weight bullets are not the best option for SD. Sure, this bullet really expanded violently, but 9" penetration is worse than most .380ACPs.

I think 124 +p is kind of a sweet spot for 9mm- it expands well but still penetrates adequately, but I think I would never pick an SD round lighter and faster than that. This video makes me want to lean towards 147 standard pressure.

10mm, 135 grains at 1600fps!!!!!!

Foxtrotx1

07-16-2012, 21:28

Just let it go. The guy that made the video, even the the guy that makes the ammo, disagree with you. It's over.

Why don't you? the guy in the video says not to use it in guns not meant for +P, he never says it's anyone's responsibility but yours to use the right ammo.

Foxtrotx1

07-16-2012, 21:30

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/AMM-406
My bad it's only $17.49 for 50. I bought 21 boxes and with shipping it came out to like $18.50-$19 bucks something around there.

This video definitely settles it for me, high velocity light weight bullets are not the best option for SD. Sure, this bullet really expanded violently, but 9" penetration is worse than most .380ACPs.

I think 124 +p is kind of a sweet spot for 9mm- it expands well but still penetrates adequately, but I think I would never pick an SD round lighter and faster than that. This video makes me want to lean towards 147 standard pressure.

Very impressive

icelandicstud

07-17-2012, 05:37

well as the tester in the video said - it'll come down to penetration vs expansion debate.

hoping the tnoutdoors guy will do the 124gr ver. Seems like that would be the best of both worlds.

Don't know why the mfgr (Underwood) is being attacked - like any company they are just producing a product that people want. If there wasn't a crowd out there wanting the +p+ 115 than they probably wouldn't have the sales to justify making the stuff in the first place.

That said, I hope Underwood starts making some 147gr!

cowboywannabe

07-17-2012, 07:53

He calibrates to FBI standards and posts the exact calibration at the beginning of the video (and each video he does). The BB calibration was 3.7" and he uses 4 layers of denim. He also gave ambient temp and gel temp. You should actually watch the video before you accuse him of cheating.

so musta been beat up a lot as a kid. youre so defensive.

i made no accusations about him cheating. i even asked if anybody knew the balgel specs he used.

thanks for clarifying the specs for me.

cowboywannabe

07-17-2012, 07:58

elliotb33, thats some good stuff. that price is great as well!

and, ive only seen one poster here "attack" UW ammo. there is always a few.....

Foxtrotx1

07-17-2012, 08:36

109/98= .899083 round up = .90
29/32= .90625 round up = .91

:dunno:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/marshall-sanow-discrepancies.htm

http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?19329-Marshall-and-Sanow

To start. Visit m4 carbine. net to get a more complete picture of the stupidity going on.

Marshall and Sanow are about as far from hard science as you can get.

G36's Rule

07-17-2012, 09:31

No. The industry standard, what we teach all shooters, even housewives and other casual shooters, is to make sure the markings on the ammunition match the markings on the gun and in the guns manual. This ammo exceeds industry pressures and is marked simply "9mm". It's not nanny sate, it's common sense. Maybe all electrical receptacles should be identical and anyone who doesn't test for voltage on every outlet deserves to have a fire or their equipment destroyed.

Damn good post. I want to know what these pressures are running at.

fnfalman

07-17-2012, 09:34

Marshall and Sanow are about as far from hard science as you can get.

Anybody that has a modicum knowledge of science and statistical mathematics would laugh at these supposed "studies" that S&M had put together.

Metal Angel

07-17-2012, 09:54

well as the tester in the video said - it'll come down to penetration vs expansion debate.

hoping the tnoutdoors guy will do the 124gr ver. Seems like that would be the best of both worlds.

Don't know why the mfgr (Underwood) is being attacked - like any company they are just producing a product that people want. If there wasn't a crowd out there wanting the +p+ 115 than they probably wouldn't have the sales to justify making the stuff in the first place.

That said, I hope Underwood starts making some 147gr!

KJUnderwood confirmed that they will have a 147gr offering soon :)

I don't think anyone attacked him though. Some people were concerned that this high pressure load is not labeled as such. I have mixed feelings about that. I think the your best bet is not to fire any cartridges that you didn't personally load or purchase. Reloaders certainly don't mark their brass with the level of heat they loaded their cartridge to, so it's best to teach your wives and kids (and self) to not use any ammo that is not theirs.

Foxtrotx1

07-17-2012, 11:42

Anybody that has a modicum knowledge of science and statistical mathematics would laugh at these supposed "studies" that S&M had put together.

But its published, they must be right!!!

Foxtrotx1

07-17-2012, 11:43

KJUnderwood confirmed that they will have a 147gr offering soon :)

I don't think anyone attacked him though. Some people were concerned that this high pressure load is not labeled as such. I have mixed feelings about that. I think the your best bet is not to fire any cartridges that you didn't personally load or purchase. Reloaders certainly don't mark their brass with the level of heat they loaded their cartridge to, so it's best to teach your wives and kids (and self) to not use any ammo that is not theirs.

Glad someone else is thinking with their head.

fnfalman

07-17-2012, 12:21

But its published, they must be right!!!

Not in any accredited scientific journals.

Comic books are published as well.

Metal Angel

07-17-2012, 12:39

Not in any accredited scientific journals.

Comic books are published as well.

Haha!

...wait, does this mean Gotham City isn't a real place? Aw, shucks. I've been snookered by yet another publication.

WiskyT

07-17-2012, 13:25

It's not Underwood's problem if it's removed from the box.

plus

It's the responsibility of the person shooting a gun to know what they have loaded up.

Nanny state much?

Equals Eagle Scout:rofl:

elliotb33

07-17-2012, 13:55

http://www.firearmstactical.com/marshall-sanow-discrepancies.htm

http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?19329-Marshall-and-Sanow

To start. Visit m4 carbine. net to get a more complete picture of the stupidity going on.

Marshall and Sanow are about as far from hard science as you can get.

Hey thanks for the links! Near the end of the 1st link good info.

WarEagle32

07-17-2012, 17:15

I would be worried of star fishing at that high of a velocity! I starfished some Georgia Arms 155+P+ 40 calibers. Beautiful, but shallow penetration!