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Topic: Orthodox devotion to Catholic saints (Read 24625 times)

Hello, everyone. I am a new member to this forum, and this is my first post. I will greatly appreciate your replys.

I am interested in knowing your opinions regarding devotion to Catholic saints by Orthodox Christians. Two particular saints come to mind: Saint Therese of Lisieux and Saint Francis of Assisi. The feast days of Saint Therese and of Saint Francis on the Catholic liturgical calendar are Oct. 1st and Oct 4th, respectively.

Devotion to Saint Therese of Lisieux can be found among Russian Orthodox Christians in France. Images of Saint Therese are found alongside icons in some Orthodox churches as well as in the icon corners of homes. The works of Saint Therese have been recommended by Russian Orthodox pastors to the faithful. Saint Therese's spirituality of the "Little Way" has been compared to that of Saint Seraphim of Sarov.There also reports of miraculous favors granted to Orthodox Christians who have asked for Saint Therese's intercession.

Devotion to Saint Francis can also be found among Orthodox Christians too. The Monks of New Skete, who were former Byzantine Catholic Franciscans, continue to have a devotion to Saint Francis and to Saint Clare of Assisi as well.

Orthodox Christians also made visits to Saint Padre Pio when he was alive. This resulted in conversions to the Catholic faith.

What is your opinion regarding veneration of Catholic saints by Orthodox Christians?

Also, has there been any official statement by any Orthodox hierarch regarding this practice?

I think there’s no doubt many of the saints canonised by the post-schism Roman church lived exceptionally holy lives and are certainly worthy of veneration. I’m not interested in Latin spirituality but they were righteous men and women so their intercession would be efficacious. Our churches may not be in communion, but our saints are, with us all.

Padre Pio was a prominent figure in my life as a Roman Catholic, being Italian. Although I honour him in my home artistically, I do have my reservations about him because of his legendary gruffness, demeanour and outlook towards the world. For instance, he chided the future John Paul II for his involvement in acting, which in some ways made me feel guilty about being a musician (I’m really sensitive about stuff like that!). In my opinion any conversions from Orthodoxy to Roman Catholicism because of him are due to his pre-Vatican II italian Roman Catholic formation with the necessary baggage that goes with it regarding "those Orthodox schismatics". Many seem to believe every word he uttered was divinely inspired and infallible. There’s a lot I still admire about him, but at this point in time I have a lot of difficulty seeing Jesus in Padre Pio, except obviously in the physical manifestations. That was the impression I got.

St. Therese of Lisieux has a very special place in my life because of her child-like simplicity, gentleness and overflowing love she poured out to everybody. St. Francis of Assisi is also a big favorite; he left an impression on me because of his jovial character, love for the poor and his ‘pacifism’. I also have a soft spot for Pope John XXIII.

No other Roman Catholic saint appeals to me to tell you the truth. I would be instantly drawn to gentle souls with great compassion for the sinful, not the “Oh Hell! Oh Hell! Pray for the souls in purgatory! Offer x amount of indulgences! Eat nothing but one rice bubble on Fridays for the conversion of sinners!” legalistic mumbo-jumbo type.

Devotion to Saint Therese of Lisieux can be found among Russian Orthodox Christians in France. Images of Saint Therese are found alongside icons in some Orthodox churches as well as in the icon corners of homes. The works of Saint Therese have been recommended by Russian Orthodox pastors to the faithful. Saint Therese's spirituality of the "Little Way" has been compared to that of Saint Seraphim of Sarov.There also reports of miraculous favors granted to Orthodox Christians who have asked for Saint Therese's intercession.

This is an abbheration. Ecclessiologically, venerating those outside of the Church as "Saints" makes little sense. It's also potentially dangerous, in so far as such "saints" espoused incorrect ideas both about dogma and praxis - heresies, which our Tradition tells us are poison for the soul.

I find the comparison of St.Seraphim to Therese interesting, but from my reading, unfounded. Having read her autobiography, and also read the sayings/counsels of St.Seraphim, I have a hard time seeing where the essential similarity is.

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Devotion to Saint Francis can also be found among Orthodox Christians too. The Monks of New Skete, who were former Byzantine Catholic Franciscans, continue to have a devotion to Saint Francis and to Saint Clare of Assisi as well.

I think you just explained this abbheration yourself. The folks at New Skete do a lot of strange things, precisely because they have not actually converted to Orthodoxy.

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Orthodox Christians also made visits to Saint Padre Pio when he was alive. This resulted in conversions to the Catholic faith.

Which of itself is evidence why Orthodox should not be in the business of venerating men (however noble they are on a natural level) as Saints who are, whether through their own fault or not, heretics and schismatics.

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Also, has there been any official statement by any Orthodox hierarch regarding this practice?

None that I am aware of - where such practices are common, usually the archpastors could care less (pseudo-Orthodox churches); where this doesn't happen, nothing would need to be said since it hasn't become an issue.

You can privately venerate anyone you want. Many Orthodox Christians pray to their deceased loved ones, for instance. The Church only publicly venerates Orthodox saints though because the public veneration of saints sets an example.

I am cautious about that article as somone I know who is RC said that they get Francis wrong on many points....so I don't know who to believe, and I don't have time to study the issue in depth. Certainly we want to be Orthodox because of the truth, and not have any misconceptions about other religions so that when we present the truth we don't spout errors.

OK Justin, what are you rolling your eyes at this time? That I said you can privately venerate anyone? Well Ok you can't venerate a flagrant sinner. But St Isaac the Syrian was a Nestorian and he is on the Orthodox Calendar, so it's pretty obvious that privately we can venerate non-Orthodox.

Or are you rolling your eyes because I am cautious about the article about St Seraphim of Sarov vs. St Francis? What can I say, when someone tells me that an article about X is wrong, shouldn't I work to discuss X in the context of true statements?

I don't get what you are rolling your eyes at. I don't think it's a very constructive response.

I think it would be proper to make a point here. There are some Saints venerated by both Orthodox and RC that many may see as RC. Case in point, St. Padraig (Patrick) He of course was with the Church Militant before the schism. If you read St. Padraig his Orthodoxy is evident.

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St Isaac the Syrian was a Nestorian and he is on the Orthodox Calendar, so it's pretty obvious that privately we can venerate non-Orthodox.

Are you sure about him being Nestorian? Or is it just a case of him using less guarded language because:a) he had not encountered the Nestorian heresy, andb) he would not have been misunderstood by those he was writing to at the time.

<edit>I see that he was long after Nestorus so undoubtably knew of the heresy, but the little I have dug up thus far indicates that although he was in a church that was considered Nestorian, that which he wrote is considered to be fully orthodox. Alas, I'm too busy to dig any deeper.</edit>

I don't see what the real point of such straining to venerate heretics is all about - are there not enough unequivocally Orthodox persons worthy of our recognition?

All that is not within the Church is anathema. That is a grave thing to say, but needs to be qualified. "Anathema" means cut off (distinguished and separated) and held up. "Held up" to what? God's judgement. Why? Because persons/ideas outside of the Church, the Ark of Salvation, are in some essential way at odds with the Church (by not being in Her), and their way is not the way we know (and the only way given by God by which we may be saved) leads to salvation. Thus, we do not say "they're in hell" - rather, we clearly recognize they're not Orthodox, and leave them in God's hands, for He is their Lord and judge.

As such, such persons/ideas should not be toyed with or held as something reconcilable or to be ammended to Orthodoxy. While we may privately hope they somehow found their way to God, in His great mercy (indeed, how can we not want this to be possible for everyone?), granting them the cult of true Saints (prayers for their intercession, even veneration of images made of them) is an abbheration and should be avoided.

Seraphim

P.S. - Bobby, I haven't been RC for a long time. As for my status, I'm a catechuman.

I don't see what the real point of such straining to venerate heretics is all about - are there not enough unequivocally Orthodox persons worthy of our recognition?

All that is not within the Church is anathema. That is a grave thing to say, but needs to be qualified. "Anathema" means cut off (distinguished and separated) and held up. "Held up" to what? God's judgement. Why? Because persons/ideas outside of the Church, the Ark of Salvation, are in some essential way at odds with the Church (by not being in Her), and their way is not the way we know (and the only way given by God by which we may be saved) leads to salvation. Thus, we do not say "they're in hell" - rather, we clearly recognize they're not Orthodox, and leave them in God's hands, for He is their Lord and judge.

As such, such persons/ideas should not be toyed with or held as something reconcilable or to be ammended to Orthodoxy. While we may privately hope they somehow found their way to God, in His great mercy (indeed, how can we not want this to be possible for everyone?), granting them the cult of true Saints (prayers for their intercession, even veneration of images made of them) is an abbheration and should be avoided.

Seraphim

P.S. - Bobby, I haven't been RC for a long time. As for my status, I'm a catechuman.

For your sake you had better be right, because your judgemental attitude towards 1 billion Catholics may come back to haunt you. But knowing the love and mercy of God as well as his wisdom, I feel confident you are stone cold wrong regarding the Catholic Church.Peace,Polycarp

I personally venerate pretty much 99.9% Orthodox saints. But when I see someone like St Theresa of Calcutta or St John of the Cross, it's so obvious that they are saints I just am obliged to venerate them.

An interesting story: an Antiochian priest whose son I know was doing the prayers of prosomedia. He did a commemoration for Mother Theresa before she was canonized by the CC. He put her commemorative particle in the "departed Christians" section of the diskos. It then flew over to the saints pile by itself. Interesting, huh? If anyone "needs" to know who this priest is I will consider telling you by private message.

For your sake you had better be right, because your judgemental attitude towards 1 billion Catholics may come back to haunt you. But knowing the love and mercy of God as well as his wisdom, I feel confident you are stone cold wrong regarding the Catholic Church.Peace,Polycarp

Dude, get it over it. As harsh as you may think it sounds, the Orthodox Church considers you guys outside the Church - and the RCC vice versa to the Orthodox. Remember, you're on an Orthodox message board.

The Antiochians commune heretics, and recognize the sacraments of heretics, why would they have a problem commemorating or venerating them?

Sounds to me like Satan took advantage of this priest while he was doing a sinful thing, and thereby only further confused the priest, making him think that he was doing a good thing! Woe to them, who call good evil, and evil good.

Quote from: anastasios on Today at 10:41:54am He did a commemoration for Mother Theresa before she was canonized by the CC.

She's been formally cannonized? I knew that there was talk about it, but when did it happen?

No, Mother Teresa (without an "H") of Calcutta has not been canonized, i.e., formally declared as a saint, by the Catholic Church.

However, the beatification (last step before canonization in the Catholic Church) ceremony will be held on Sunday, October the 19th, at St. Peter's basilica in Rome, where most of the world's Cardinals and other bishops of the Roman Church have started gathering for this and for the 2 consistories (1st: reflection on and celebration of the 25th Pontificate of His Holiness, Pope John Paul II; and, 2nd: for the installation of 30 new Cardinals of the Roman Church on October, the 21st).

At least one more miracle attributable to Blessed Mother Teresa must be reported and investigated BEFORE canonization is in order.

Sounds to me like Satan took advantage of this priest while he was doing a sinful thing, and thereby only further confused the priest, making him think that he was doing a good thing! Woe to them, who call good evil, and evil good.

When Anastasios mentioned the story about the Antiochian priest, I don't think he made it sound like he was making a conclusion about Mother Teresa, the Catholic Church, etc. based on that. But it led to the above response by Paradosis. I think it merely goes to show that however nice miracles are, we can never use them to validate theology. For instance, what Paradosis says above, I could easily say about the miracle of the Cross appearing in the sky above some old calendar church in Greece in the 1920's that old calendarists almost universally (in my experience) refer to at some point to help boost their perspective. I could easily say that Satan caused that to happen to confuse the old calendar faithful, make them feel like they were justified in their actions, and keep them outside of the true Church (i.e., the State Church). Miracles, when they happen, are great, and can help our faith, but we simply cannot rely on them for our faith because of the danger of delusion. I think this is a point Anastasios and Paradosis, and everyone else here, can agree with.

For your sake you had better be right, because your judgemental attitude towards 1 billion Catholics may come back to haunt you. But knowing the love and mercy of God as well as his wisdom, I feel confident you are stone cold wrong regarding the Catholic Church.Peace,Polycarp

Dude, get it over it. As harsh as you may think it sounds, the Orthodox Church considers you guys outside the Church - and the RCC vice versa to the Orthodox. Remember, you're on an Orthodox message board.

1) Elisha is right, you are on an Orthodox message board so tone down the rhetoric. The official Orthodox position is that the Catholic Church is outside the visible Church.

2) The RCC does not, however, teach that Orthodox are outside of the Church from its POV. Perhaps this is why Polycarp feels the need to keep posting about the Catholic Church, since sometimes people are mistaken about it.

The position of the moderators will be reiterated again: This is an ORTHODOX message board and Orthodox beliefs are not going to be continously attacked. If you have a question about them, or even want to compare them to your Church's teaching, fine, BUT if you start saying the Orthodox are wrong. heretics, bad, etc. then you are going to be censored.

My position is: I don't think the miracle proves either way whether Mother Theresa is a saint. What I meant to conclude is that God's mercy is without limit and people like Mother Theresa, although not Orthodox, are certainly with God and can thus be called saints.

I don't see what the real point of such straining to venerate heretics is all about - are there not enough unequivocally Orthodox persons worthy of our recognition?

Well, if the best people can come up with is venerating the late tsar as a martyr, then I personally would have to opine, "apparently not". Well, there's St. Tikhon, but given how much of the discussion in this group is dedicated to repudiating much of what he did, maybe that's not the best example either.

It is an interesting coincidence that the Episcopal lectionary appointed readings for this last Sunday which serve to refute this parochial attitude (Numbers 11 and a portion of Mark 9 beginning at verse 38). It appalls me how much theological patter is devoted to blunting the force of these verses, but unfortunately it does not surprise me, especially in this congress of converts.

But I am also appalled at the deprecation directed at men and women who acted out the commandments of Christ in the "wrong" church (by accident of time or place), some even unto their own deaths. A woman from Albania establishes a vast ministry of caring for the poor and outcast, and all in Jesus' name, and we sit here on our comfortable suburban duffs and pass judgement on it, saying "we forbid it, because she is not one of us."

This is no attack on Orthodoxy. I do not believe that what is being expressed are official Orthodox opinions-- especially considering that the person to whom I reply is a catechumen.

For your sake you had better be right, because your judgemental attitude towards 1 billion Catholics may come back to haunt you. But knowing the love and mercy of God as well as his wisdom, I feel confident you are stone cold wrong regarding the Catholic Church.Peace,Polycarp

Dude, get it over it. As harsh as you may think it sounds, the Orthodox Church considers you guys outside the Church - and the RCC vice versa to the Orthodox. Remember, you're on an Orthodox message board.

1) Elisha is right, you are on an Orthodox message board so tone down the rhetoric. The official Orthodox position is that the Catholic Church is outside the visible Church.

2) The RCC does not, however, teach that Orthodox are outside of the Church from its POV. Perhaps this is why Polycarp feels the need to keep posting about the Catholic Church, since sometimes people are mistaken about it.

The position of the moderators will be reiterated again: This is an ORTHODOX message board and Orthodox beliefs are not going to be continously attacked. If you have a question about them, or even want to compare them to your Church's teaching, fine, BUT if you start saying the Orthodox are wrong. heretics, bad, etc. then you are going to be censored.

anastasios

Anasasios,The thing is I didn't attack any Orthodox belief or position! Whether this is an Orthodox board or not shouldn't matter anyway. If you are attempting to have dialogue with non-Orthodox then they must be able to voice their opinions. I believe the Orthodox Churches are valid Churches and that there is no condemnation in them. The Orthodox who are condemning the Catholic Church are doing the attacking. As in many of the Protestant boards on the net usually it is the ex-Catholics who seem to act that way.Moderate as your conscience dictates. Mine is clear.Peace,Polycarp

I am not trying to come down on you personally, but your post occasioned something that is a perrenial tension.

On this folder, titled "Orthodox-Catholic Discussion", dialogue is solicited. There is more leeway here. But even be that as it may, and again this is not directly pointing to you, we aren't going to sit around while people say "Orthodox, they're so mean, they don't pray to our saints!!"

I issued the above warning as a corrective before things get out of hand like they did previously with other posters.

Apart from the unique function of the Catholic-Orthodox Discussion folder, the purpose of the board as a whole is a place where Orthodoxy can be freely discussed without worrying that it is going to be attacked. In other words, it's not like theologyonline.com, where all parties are equal.

I am not trying to come down on you personally, but your post occasioned something that is a perrenial tension.

On this folder, titled "Orthodox-Catholic Discussion", dialogue is solicited. There is more leeway here. But even be that as it may, and again this is not directly pointing to you, we aren't going to sit around while people say "Orthodox, they're so mean, they don't pray to our saints!!"

I issued the above warning as a corrective before things get out of hand like they did previously with other posters.

Apart from the unique function of the Catholic-Orthodox Discussion folder, the purpose of the board as a whole is a place where Orthodoxy can be freely discussed without worrying that it is going to be attacked. In other words, it's not like theologyonline.com, where all parties are equal.

That's all I am trying to point out.

anastasiosAdmin

Dear Anastasios,How has Orthodoxy been attacked in any of my posts? I do not attack the belief's of other Christians even when I believe their are heretical. Dialogue with other Christians should be done with charity and I try to maintain that attitude even when I try to make a point. If you can point out my misbehavior then I can correct it. If it is simply disagreeing with a poster then how can there be discussion? It was the ex-Catholic now Orthodox Chatechumen who was doing the attacking and posting in a noncharatable manner. Peace,Polycarp

Like I said, it wasn't anything directly in your post that occasioned my posting the reminder. I did however sense a feeling that you think it is wrong that the Orthodox Church doesn't consider Catholicism part of the Church, and I wanted to preempt this turning into a Catholic vs. Orthodox bash, as has happened several times in the past. If you think I am being oversensitive, please read the archives of this forum and see what has happened before to make me this way.

And like I also said, if people wouldn't make unfair criticisms of Catholicism, then fair-minded Catholics like you would not feel the need to respond.

So I apologize if you think I am insinuating that you are attacking Orthodoxy. I know you are not. But I just wanted to take this chance to remind the posters of the nature of this board, which I outlined above. If my word choice was poor, again I apologize.

Like I said, it wasn't anything directly in your post that occasioned my posting the reminder. I did however sense a feeling that you think it is wrong that the Orthodox Church doesn't consider Catholicism part of the Church, and I wanted to preempt this turning into a Catholic vs. Orthodox bash, as has happened several times in the past. If you think I am being oversensitive, please read the archives of this forum and see what has happened before to make me this way.

And like I also said, if people wouldn't make unfair criticisms of Catholicism, then fair-minded Catholics like you would not feel the need to respond.

So I apologize if you think I am insinuating that you are attacking Orthodoxy. I know you are not. But I just wanted to take this chance to remind the posters of the nature of this board, which I outlined above. If my word choice was poor, again I apologize.

anastasios

Dear Anastasios,Thank you for clearing that up for me. I appreciate it.Peace,Polycarp

There are those among Protestant and RC that I must respect. Some have lived a life beyond me. Whether I understand one of these to be saint or not has nothing to do with being disrespectful. My acceptance of the individual as a saint makes no difference in whether or not they are one. None the less, it would be inconsistent for me to profess Orthodoxy and then claim that someone out of communion with Orthodoxy is in essence at the heart of the community. This is not a question of disrespect or of claiming parochially, “we are right and everyone else is wrong.”

Would I be Orthodox if I didn’t agree with Orthodoxy? As an Orthodox, I accept the Orthodox Church as the Church. This is quite similar to the stance of Roman Catholicism. Certainly, each of us can type out doctrine correct tirades that though they are consistent with our respective communions are inconsistent from an etiquette point of view with Christian charity.

I quite frankly love Francis of Assisi and Teresa of Avila and her buddy John of the Cross have a place in my heart. In my pre-Orthodox searching for God these and other Western mystics have encouraged me and have lead me to think in new ways.

With all that said, I am Orthodox, if I wanted to be Roman Catholic I could have chosen one of a number of parishes in my area, from a one room old time country one to a Cathedral. I could have been as choosy as I wanted to be. I was instead lead to Orthodoxy. To go to church the closest parish is 90-100 miles. I have had to culturally give up quite a number of things connected to religion, and being an American Celt I have a strong connection to culture and family.

What I’m trying to say is though I may have strong feelings for non-Orthodox Christians, and it is my Christian hope that some how we will all be of the Church triumphant, it is inappropriate for me to try to introduce into Orthodoxy that which is not Orthodox. RC members would say pretty much the equivalent also.

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wow, a lot went on from the time I started composing my last post until I posted it

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I don't know but I have images of Saint Juan Diego, those of the Cristero martyrs and that of St Philippe (Mexican Catholic Saints) at home. I don0t think they were exposed to too many heresies. There have been siants in the first period of Christianity who were Arian or Gnostic and who knows.

By the way, not long ago my aunt ent to Romania and she brought a stamp of St. Francesc din asissi printed in an Orthodox store.

Thank you for your replies. I had not expected the discussion to become heated at times though.

I can understand the mixed reaction of Orthodox Christians to venerating Catholic saints. I have often had similar concerns regarding venerating Orthodox saints. I would say that it is easier for a Catholic to venerate Orthodox saints than for an Orthodox to venerate Catholic saints.

From the Catholic POV, the Catholic Church does not deny the work of the Holy Spirit in the Orthodox Church, so it is much easier for Catholics to acknowledge and accept the sanctity of Orthodox saints. It is my understanding that the Orthodox Churches have mixed views on whether or not there is grace found in the Catholic Church. Some Orthodox Churches consider the Catholic Church to be completely void of any grace while others do believe the Catholic Church has grace.

For those who do not believe that holiness can come from the Catholic Church, the idea of Catholic saints whose bodies are incorrupt, or who are known as wonder-workers can cause an Orthodox Christian to ask, "Who is responsible for the miracles attributed to Catholic saints? Is it from God or from the devil"?

Let us fervently pray that one day the Churches of East and West will unite in faith, love and charity.

God bless you,griego catolico

p.s. Snoopy, one of the canonized Cristero martyrs is a relative of mine.

But I am also appalled at the deprecation directed at men and women who acted out the commandments of Christ in the "wrong" church (by accident of time or place), some even unto their own deaths. A woman from Albania establishes a vast ministry of caring for the poor and outcast, and all in Jesus' name, and we sit here on our comfortable suburban duffs and pass judgement on it, saying "we forbid it, because she is not one of us."

There is no problem in admiring the good done, irregardless of who is doing it or their situation. However, this is something different than the veneration of a Saint. If your sentimental reasoning were valid, then we should also see icons and prayers composed to "St." Ghandhi, or Martin Luther King Jr., etc.

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It is an interesting coincidence that the Episcopal lectionary appointed readings for this last Sunday which serve to refute this parochial attitude (Numbers 11 and a portion of Mark 9 beginning at verse 38). It appalls me how much theological patter is devoted to blunting the force of these verses, but unfortunately it does not surprise me, especially in this congress of converts.

And little you write surprises me, seeing as it comes from a crotchety, self important heretic.

See?...flip/ad hominem dismissals of the opinions of others can cut both ways.