Pain is NOT an actual necessary or integral part of the awakening process as portrayed in the suttas, whilst it is an integral stage as it is portrayed in the nana's.

Maybe, but it is not likely one is not going to experience mental or physical pain throughout one's life. You don't practice when your sick or hurting? You don't practice when you are distressed? Then you are not practicing.

That is a total distortion of what I am saying. Every human being experiences pain. I am saying that pain is not a marker towards nibbana. Do you think it is?

Pain is NOT an actual necessary or integral part of the awakening process as portrayed in the suttas, whilst it is an integral stage as it is portrayed in the nana's.

Maybe, but it is not likely one is not going to experience mental or physical pain throughout one's life. You don't practice when your sick or hurting? You don't practice when you are distressed? Then you are not practicing.

That is a total distortion of what I am saying. Every human being experiences pain. I am saying that pain is not a marker towards nibbana. Do you think it is?

The problem has been that you have not been clear in what you have said. I guess I would read the stuff about pain in the first link as it not the pain itself, but how one reacts to, responds to, the pain that one may feel that is the indicator.

And certainly in the second link that is not an issue at all.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

"It should be noted that the clear realization of impermanence is a specific characteristic of the Sammasana-ñana, and it means that the meditator will face many painful sensations. It is the meditator’s duty to pacify and encourage himself, and develop more confidence so that he is encouraged to continue practice."

"At that time, the meditator will generally experience many different painful feelings arising in his body. Now, while one of these feelings is being noticed (but without concern), another feeling will arise elsewhere; and while that is being noticed, again another will appear elsewhere. Thus the meditator follows each feeling as it arises and notices it. But though he is engaged in noticing these feelings as they arise, he will only perceive their initial phase of "arising" and not their final phase of "dissolution."

Also many mental images of various shapes will then appear. The shape of a dagoba, a monk, a man, a house, a tree, a park, a heavenly mansion, a cloud, and many other such images will appear. Here, too, while the meditator is still engaged in noticing one of these mental images, another will show itself; while still noticing that, yet another will appear. Following thus the mental images as they arise, he goes on noticing them. But though he is engaged in noticing them, he will perceive only their initial phase, not the final phase.

He now understands: "Consciousness arises in accordance with each object that becomes evident. If there is an object, there arises consciousness; if there is no object, no consciousness arises."

Between sequences of noticing he also, by considering inferentially, comes to know thus: "It is due to the presence of such causes and conditions as ignorance, craving, kamma, etc., that body-and-mind continue."

Such discernment through direct experience and through inference as described, when noticing body-and-mind with their conditions, is called "knowledge of discerning conditionality."

When that knowledge has come to maturity, the meditator perceives only body-and-mind processes occurring in strict accordance with their particular and appropriate conditions and he comes to the conclusion: "Here is only a conditioning body-and-mind process and a conditioned body-and-mind process. Apart from these, there is no person who performs the bending of the limbs, etc., or who experiences feelings of pain, etc."

This is called purification (of insight) by overcoming doubt.

3. Knowledge of ComprehensionWhen this "purification (of insight) by overcoming doubt" has reached maturity, the meditator will discern distinctly the initial, middle, and final phases of any object noticed by him. Then, in the case of various objects noticed, he will discern distinctly that only after each earlier process has ceased, does there arise a subsequent process. For instance, only when the rising movement of the abdomen has come to an end, does there arise the falling movement; only when that has ended, is there again a rising movement. So also in the case of walking: only when the lifting of the foot has come to an end, does there arise the carrying forward of the foot; only when that has been completed, does there follow the placing of the foot on the ground.

In the case of painful feelings, only after each single feeling occurring at its particular place has ceased, will another new feeling arise at another place. On noticing the respective painful feeling repeatedly, twice, thrice or more, the meditator will see that it gradually grows less, and at last ceases entirely.

In the case of the variously shaped images that enter the mind's field, it is only after each single image noticed has vanished, that another new object will come into the mind's focus. On noticing them attentively twice, thrice or more, he will see well that these mental objects which are being noticed move from one place to another, or they become gradually smaller and less distinct, until at last they disappear entirely. The meditator, however, does not perceive anything that is permanent and lasting, or free from destruction and disappearance.

Seeing how each object, even while being noticed, comes to destruction and disappearance, the meditator comprehends it as impermanent in the sense of undergoing destruction. He further comprehends it as suffering (painful) in the sense of breaking up after each arising. Having seen how various painful feelings arise in continuous succession — how if one painful feeling ceases, another arises, and when that has ceased, again another arises — having seen that, he comprehends the respective objects as just a conglomeration of suffering. Further, he comprehends the object as consisting of mere impersonal phenomena without a master, in the sense of not arising of (or by) themselves, but arising subject to conditions and then breaking up.

This comprehension of an object noticed, as being impermanent, painful, and without a self (impersonal), through knowing its nature of impermanence, etc., by means of simply noticing, without reflecting and reasoning, is called "knowledge by comprehension through direct experience."

Having thus seen the three characteristics once or several times by direct experience, the meditator, by inference from the direct experience of those objects noticed, comprehends all bodily and mental processes of the past, present, and future, and the whole world, by coming to the conclusion: "They, too, are in the same way impermanent, painful, and without a self." This is called "knowledge of comprehension by inference."http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/Progress/progress.html#Comprehension

The second link is notable with its preoccupation with pain, it actually substitutes pain for dukkha. It has an ambiguous style in that it uses words like "may" or "usually" experience pain. However a full reading of it definitely conveys a meaning of "will" experience pain.

BTW I already posted the same piece from your first link. I read the second link many years ago (I had all the books) and became quite enamoured with the whole process - doing the retreats etc. Re-reading it now, after discovering the suttas I find it so very removed from the sutta teachings.

Whatever has occurred for many yogis I know and have talked to over the past year is happening more and more to more yogis who are mostly practicing the mahasi noting technique: Once at a stage of high equanimity with a wide panoramic focus, lots of cool calm vibratory phenomena throughout the body where intentions and composite phenomena being mis-read as "I" are all seen easily, there is our infamous brief "blip" (call it whatever you want , i don't care much anymore) and shutdown of all the senses, no memory of it except for the entrance and exit experiences. Whatever this occurrence is, it can be repeatable by continued noting practice getting up to the same equanimous place again or by learning to resolve for it to happen and calling it up at will or by observing the vanishing moment of a phenomenon of mind or body.

The first infamous "blip" changes a lot of things. Percpetion and the way the mind relates to phenomena arising seriously changes. What we are finding is that those who have experienced this and continue to experience this are experiencing profound changes in suffering levels as well. Most but not all of yogis I've communciated with who profess to such a experience of cessation of the senses, say that when they flicker their eyelids on purpose and then let the flickering peeter out,(this is the important bit) upon paying extremely close attention to the very moment that the very last flicker stops, meaning the very moment of vanishing of last sensation of the last flicker, these yogis are all getting the same thing happen: one of those brief shutdown occurrences (blips) and then a release of a wave blissful vibrations from the crown downwards throughout the body and then a rebooting period of the mind afterward.

I really don't care what you call it. I really don't care that it isn't described in any text and I'm not too fussed to strip it of any label of stream entry. It seems to match what Mahasi talked about with the nanas but meh! What is noticable and more importantly why it'd be great for everyone I know to have it occur for them, is that suffering levels drop considerably after the first one. And eradicating suffering is why I'm into all this practice.

Fluttering eyelids occur all the time and arent an indicator of anything but fluttering eyelids. But when done on purpose by someone who has already had one of those "blips" whatever you want to call them, this initiates a series of fluttering movements of the eyelids which seem to set up a strobing effect in the mind. Paying attention to the very last fluttering when the sensation vanishes pulls the mind into something that cant be remembered; a discontinuity of experience. Then when the mind comes back online over 2 seconds or so, there is a release a wave of cool subtle blissful vibrations throughout the body from the crown downwards. What is happening to a lot of yogis in your opinion? I'm very open to it being nothing special. If the after effects were nothing "special", I'd not speculate anymore on it. But the profound permanent changes in perception, the profound shift in relationship with all phenomena, seeing how even a sense of seemingly separate subjective self can be seen as nothing more than another object that can experience discontinuities from time to time, and not to mention shifts in suffering levels really makes it seem "special".

Anyway, I know most of you guys have your well formed opinions and probably don't appreciate my momentary presence here in this forum. I only speak from my own experience and these days am very open to be wrong on all my interpretations. Labels are just labels and mean diddly. Less suffering is why I keep going. Just clarifying the fluttering thing.

Concerning pain, If you cultivated jhana access and mastered them somewhat beforehand then practiced discernment within them, wouldn't it be a much more pleasant ride to nibbana? And wouldn't not cultivating that calm abiding beforehand and jumping right into insight practice with lower concentration levels mean that practicing insight may be a little more "painful" at times?

Whatever has occurred for many yogis I know and have talked to over the past year is happening more and more to more yogis who are mostly practicing the mahasi noting technique: Once at a stage of high equanimity with a wide panoramic focus, lots of cool calm vibratory phenomena throughout the body where intentions and composite phenomena being mis-read as "I" are all seen easily, there is our infamous brief "blip" (call it whatever you want , i don't care much anymore) and shutdown of all the senses, no memory of it except for the entrance and exit experiences. Whatever this occurrence is, it can be repeatable by continued noting practice getting up to the same equanimous place again or by learning to resolve for it to happen and calling it up at will or by observing the vanishing moment of a phenomenon of mind or body.

I am waiting for someone to actually quote Mahasi Sayadaw about this.

And having "blipped," I cannot take the explanation of it at all seriously.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

legolas wrote:"It should be noted that the clear realization of impermanence is a specific characteristic of the Sammasana-ñana, and it means that the meditator will face many painful sensations. It is the meditator’s duty to pacify and encourage himself, and develop more confidence so that he is encouraged to continue practice." . . .

Interestingly the issue in these quotes is not the pain/dukkha that arises from having a mind/body process. That in and off itself is not a marker of anything except the arising and falling of pain/dukkha; rather, it is how the pain/dukkha is responded to and the insights coming out of the experiences.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

Presumably the Satipatthana Sutta (and the various variants in the SN) are canonical enough? Leaving aside for a moment the details of the vipassana nanas (which are not of particular pressing importance in one's day to day practice), it's this Sutta that the "vipassana" approaches are based on.

Thus he lives contemplating feelings in feelings internally, or he lives contemplating feelings in feelings externally, or he lives contemplating feelings in feelings internally and externally. He lives contemplating origination factors in feelings, or he lives contemplating dissolution factors in feelings, or he lives contemplating origination-and-dissolution factors in feelings.[12] Or his mindfulness is established with the thought, "Feeling exists," to the extent necessary just for knowledge and mindfulness, and he lives detached, and clings to nothing in the world. Thus, monks, a monk lives contemplating feelings in feelings.

tiltbillings wrote:And having "blipped," I cannot take the explanation of it at all seriously.

Cool, I understand your stance.

In my experience, there are many different types of "blips". Some occur at jhana transitions, or from one nana to the next. The 4th nana being a common place to experience "blips". The one I refer to is universally (at least with the many many yogis I've communicated with) said to be followed by the profound changes which I already mentioned a bit about.

I'm curious about your "blips". Can i ask about them? Can you call your version of the "blip" up at anytime? Does it occur for you when you pass through very equanimous wide panoramic state? Is it followed by a number of seconds where the mind feels like it has not fully rebooted? If you observe say an image in the mind's eye and focus on the annica characteristic, paying careful attention to the exact moment the image vanishes, do you get the same "blip"? Do you also get the bliss wave afterwards? Did it only happen once and never again?

I recognise that using the term "blip" may confuse. It is more like a discontinuity of consciousness. Like you lose time for a brief moment and there is no memory of what occurs then, just the entrance or mostly the exit with the rebooting experience and a subtle bliss wave. Sometimes a slight head jerk may accompany it. There seems to be a physical tensing within the brain at maybe the pituitary gland spot at the entrance to the discontinuity and something physical in the same spot relaxes at the exit experience. When the anatta characteristic is observed in arising and pass away phenomena while in that state where equanimity of everything arising and passing away is the theme, there seems to be a tensing at the third eye spot behind the eyes within the brain. Maybe the pineal gland? When the dukkha characterisitc is the theme in that same state, the entrance is more like a pulling up sensation at the crown within the brain. There is a tensing of something physical and then the discontinuity and then rebooting then bliss wave. It happens whenever the mind is in that panoramic cool equanimous state, or if resolved for it to occur in a certain time frame, like in 10 seconds or a minute from now.

I am not being argumentative, tilt, Im just curious is all. I know you dislike my presence, but I think you may be talking about some other "blip". Of course I could be wrong.

So putting any arguments aside concerning labeling it as some sort of attainment (screw the label), has anyone here had this experience? If so, did it leave the head as though the top of the skull had opened up and out permanently then maybe later resulting in a sense that the mind was more spacious and less confined? Like there was a non-localised awareness now without a centrepoint? Is it easy to see the misread sensations misread as a supposed separate observing "self"?

Sincerely curious and not claiming anything anymore,

metta,nibs

Edited to add: I now do not think Tilt is talking about the same "blip".

TILT : "Though what I described to the teacher was in the context of vipassana practice, the experience of the rise and fall of what I was experiencing, particularly in terms of the "falling" away of experience. It was when the final bit experience seemingly fell away, nothing arising, leaving me in a with a period of just "being there" -- no arising of anything through the sense doors, no thought, no anything, just "being there." END OF QUOTE. http://bit.ly/hwrP6t

This description here does not match the discontinuities I've described. An experience of just "being there" indicates there was no discontinuity of consciousness and it was an actual experience. And concerning that other thread that talks of "pitch blackness", there isn't any memory of even "pitch blackness". It is more a non-experience and the only experience is that of the entrance and exit. Calling it "pitch blackness" insinuates that it is an actual experience of "pitch blackness". This does not match what Ive described. I think we are talking about different "blips", one "blip" results in profound changes in perception, the mind's relationship to phenomena, the "self" being seen through, a drop in suffering levels and other significant stuff and another so called "blip" seemingly doesn't. You'd know the "blip" Im talking of due to the permanent shift in perception that results. Since Tilt has asked for another thread to be started to talk about such things, Ive added this opinion to this post and if anyone wants to cross examen, start another thread.

Last edited by nibs on Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:14 am, edited 4 times in total.

nibs wrote: I am not being argumentative, tilt, Im just curious is all. I know you dislike my presence, but I think you may be talking about some other "blip". Of course I could be wrong.

Yes, you could be wrong about everything in this sentence.

Tying "attainments" to physical manifestations leaves a bit of something to be desired. It is very hard to take it seriously. In the descriptions you have offered (then edited out) and what you are offering now do not seem to point to anything beyond what Ajahn Sumedho stated: just more stuff of which to let go.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

tiltbillings wrote:And having "blipped," I cannot take the explanation of it at all seriously.

Cool, I understand your stance.

In my experience, there are many different types of "blips". Some occur at jhana transitions, or from one nana to the next. The 4th nana being a common place to experience "blips". The one I refer to is universally (at least with the many many yogis I've communicated with) said to be followed by the profound changes which I already mentioned a bit about.

I'm curious about your "blips". Can i ask about them? Can you call your version of the "blip" up at anytime? Does it occur for you when you pass through very equanimous wide panoramic state? Is it followed by a number of seconds where the mind feels like it has not fully rebooted? If you observe say an image in the mind's eye and focus on the annica characteristic, paying careful attention to the exact moment the image vanishes, do you get the same "blip"? Do you also get the bliss wave afterwards? Did it only happen once and never again?

I recognise that using the term "blip" may confuse. It is more like a discontinuity of consciousness. Like you lose time for a brief moment and there is no memory of what occurs then, just the entrance or mostly the exit with the rebooting experience and a subtle bliss wave. Sometimes a slight head jerk may accompany it. There seems to be a physical tensing within the brain at maybe the pituitary gland spot at the entrance to the discontinuity and something physical in the same spot relaxes at the exit experience. When the anatta characteristic is observed in arising and pass away phenomena while in that state where equanimity of everything arising and passing away is the theme, there seems to be a tensing at the third eye spot behind the eyes within the brain. Maybe the pineal gland? When the dukkha characterisitc is the theme in that same state, the entrance is more like a pulling up sensation at the crown within the brain. There is a tensing of something physical and then the discontinuity and then rebooting then bliss wave. It happens whenever the mind is in that panoramic cool equanimous state, or if resolved for it to occur in a certain time frame, like in 10 seconds or a minute from now.

I am not being argumentative, tilt, Im just curious is all. I know you dislike my presence, but I think you may be talking about some other "blip". Of course I could be wrong.

So putting any arguments aside concerning labeling it as some sort of attainment (screw the label), has anyone here had this experience? If so, did it leave the head as though the top of the skull had opened up and out permanently then maybe later resulting in a sense that the mind was more spacious and less confined? Like there was a non-localised awareness now without a centrepoint? Is it easy to see the misread sensations misread as a supposed separate observing "self"?

Sincerely curious and not claiming anything anymore,

metta,nibs

If anyone wants to discuss this stuff, please start a new thread.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

nibs wrote: I am not being argumentative, tilt, Im just curious is all. I know you dislike my presence, but I think you may be talking about some other "blip". Of course I could be wrong.

Yes, you could be wrong about everything in this sentence.

Tying "attainments" to physical manifestations leaves a bit of something to be desired. It is very hard to take it seriously. In the descriptions you have offered (then edited out) and what you are offering now do not seem to point to anything beyond what Ajahn Sumedho stated: just more of which to let go.

I dont think I've ever said that they are something to hold onto. I'd rather focus on the drop in suffering levels as I dislike the word "attainment" these days. And I don't see anyone home anyway to hang any such medal on. It seems to be just a path of letting go as you say. Anyway, thanks for the civilised reply. If someone does start another thread, I'll post there.

nibs wrote:I dont think I've ever said that they are something to hold onto. I'd rather focus on the drop in suffering levels as I dislike the word "attainment" these days. And I don't see anyone home anyway to hang any such medal on. It seems to be just a path of letting go as you say. Anyway, thanks for the civilised reply. If someone does start another thread, I'll post there.

nibs

I did not say that you did, but it is obvious from the "hard core dharma" business that this stuff has an importance to those who buy into it.

Anyway, Robertk's sniping comment about eyelid fluttering has been dealt with as much as needed in this thread. If Robert feels a need to pursue eyelid flutterings and blips, a new thread is in order.

And I am always civilized.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

I can relate to similar experiences of mine to that which you detail above.However I really do think you are still missing my point, which is ..............pain is not inevitable - it is highly likely. Pain is NOT an actual necessary or integral part of the awakening process as portrayed in the suttas, whilst it is an integral stage as it is portrayed in the nana's.

Do you have any citation from any Commentary saying that pain is an integral part, or a station on the way to nibbana?

Please point to the passages in these two links that you are refering to:

Presumably the Satipatthana Sutta (and the various variants in the SN) are canonical enough? Leaving aside for a moment the details of the vipassana nanas (which are not of particular pressing importance in one's day to day practice), it's this Sutta that the "vipassana" approaches are based on.

Thus he lives contemplating feelings in feelings internally, or he lives contemplating feelings in feelings externally, or he lives contemplating feelings in feelings internally and externally. He lives contemplating origination factors in feelings, or he lives contemplating dissolution factors in feelings, or he lives contemplating origination-and-dissolution factors in feelings.[12] Or his mindfulness is established with the thought, "Feeling exists," to the extent necessary just for knowledge and mindfulness, and he lives detached, and clings to nothing in the world. Thus, monks, a monk lives contemplating feelings in feelings.

But to highlight any of those and say "if you experience fear, or unpleasant feeling,dizziness etc" that is a sign you are going towards nibbana is kind of hilarious. I live in thailand and I meet relatively frequently people who think strange experiences(or even normal ones) are signs of their awakening or imminent awakening that its hard not to laugh out loud sometimes. The two monks I met last year at Wat Dhammakaya who explained to me how the Buddh image they see in meditation is a sure sign is really no diffent than this thread.

robertk wrote:But to highlight any of those and say "if you experience fear, or unpleasant feeling,dizziness etc" that is a sign you are going towards nibbana is kind of hilarious. I live in thailand and I meet relatively frequently people who think strange experiences(or even normal ones) are signs of their awakening or imminent awakening that its hard not to laugh out loud sometimes. The two monks I met last year at Wat Dhammakaya who explained to me how the Buddh image they see in meditation is a sure sign is really no diffent than this thread.

I agree (I think) and I think Tilt is saying much the same thing here:

tiltbillings wrote:Tying "attainments" to physical manifestations leaves a bit of something to be desired. It is very hard to take it seriously. In the descriptions you have offered (then edited out) and what you are offering now do not seem to point to anything beyond what Ajahn Sumedho stated: just more stuff of which to let go.

I think that too much is being read into the text in the link in the OP, which looks to me like a clumsy translation. It is quite difficult for me to figure out what some of it means.

The first link is part of the OP and the second link is an extention of the conversation. If you are going to be critical of Burmese vipassana, it would nice to know exactly what it is of which you are critical. Using these two linked texts would be a good way at getting at that, but if you choose not to use those texts, then being a bit more expansive with something of substance than your snippy one-liners might help for an actual discussion.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

Sutamaya panna (academic/book learning)Nature: conceptual, not connected to immediate experience, not emotionalAdvantages: helps to form a degree of Right view, as well as get instructions for meditation practiceDisadvantages: can easily lead to clinging to one's views, leading to debate/argument and suffering in turn

Cintamaya panna (contemplation of the truth learnt)Nature: conceptual framework through which the practitioner views his current experienceAdvantages: allows for deepening of Right view, MAY reach the paths-fruits (attainments) through this, - no guarantee. Some emotional component, secondary to Insight, to be expected. Disadvantages: can lead to depression, when anicca, dukkha, anatta is repeatedly contemplated.

Bhavanamaya panna (meditative 'seeing')Nature: Direct 'seeing' or experiencing the truths in relation to the phenomena being observed. Non- conceptual. Works at a pre-verbal level. Deepest 'implanting' of insight knowledgeAdvantages: guaranteed to reach non-returner or arahanth within 7 years of continuous practice. Strongest if the methods to insight (may need other types of wisdom as a base to develop on). Disadvantages: mental fatigue from being mindful 16-18 hours a day, leading to the 'fevers of mind/body' mentioned in the sutta I posted previously. Emotional reactions secondary to Insight common. (and need to be managed with the help of a qualified teacher).

Samatha meditation- blissful mind states, occassionsl outbreaks of defilements. No major emotional events secondary to meditation. Most people doing only this would have NO recognition of vipassana meditation and it's effects.

Finally- try doing this without giving rise to strong emotion:

A virtuous monk should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a virtuous monk, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of stream-entry."