Monaco - If we are working on the assumption that it is the teams fault that Vettel passed him then he lost 2 points and Vettel inherited 2.

Valencia - I believe he would had won had his final stop gone smoothly as he was ahead of Alonso and could've managed his pace, thus conserving tyres. 25 points lost after collision with Maldonado. Alonso inherits 7.

Great Britain - One of those weekends, seemed like McLaren gambled on wet setup, but we will never know. No change.

Germany - Hard to know where he would have finished had he not got a puncture, his pace wasn't magnificent. 4th? Maybe could have benefitted from Vettel's penalty. We'll never know.
12 points lost.

Belgium - once again I have no idea. We don't know what he could have done in the race but we also don't know what would have happened with Alonso. I'm happy to leave this one. There is the possibility that he could have finished ahead of a low starting Vettel, but he drove well.
Nothing doing.

Valencia - I believe he would had won had his final stop gone smoothly as he was ahead of Alonso and could've managed his pace, thus conserving tyres. 25 points lost after collision with Maldonado. Alonso inherits 7.

you do understand that it's a completely silly exercise, right? Alonso crashes out, we take the points thanks. Vettel's alternator fails, we take the points thanks. Hamilton's gearbox goes boom, we should have gotten those points = WDC

Nobody has perfect seasons. Nobody. Hamilton's season sucked more than others' from circumstances outside his control, true, but doing what you're doing is the equivalent of doing McLaren faster than HRT = + 165 points gained at HRT's expense.

you do understand that it's a completely silly exercise, right? Alonso crashes out, we take the points thanks. Vettel's alternator fails, we take the points thanks. Hamilton's gearbox goes boom, we should have gotten those points = WDC

Nobody has perfect seasons. Nobody. Hamilton's season sucked more than others' from circumstances outside his control, true, but doing what you're doing is the equivalent of doing McLaren faster than HRT = + 165 points gained at HRT's expense.

Its not a silly exercize at all. I credited Hamilton with the DNF at Spa, which is equal with Alonso on unavoidable DNFS - 1. I wasn't exactly generous, I made note of the bad races e.g Germany, Japan, Korea. Some people give Hamilton wins in places like Malaysia, Jesus.

I said it wasn't perfect as I was doing it from a Hamilton POV.

Off the top of my head.Vettel's +25 Valencia +15 malaysia -3 Hamilton +4 Italy Vettel still 11 points back. Silly to do Alonso as him and ferrari have near enough maximised everything. You said no one has a perfect season, but its 100% possible Hamilton/McLaren could have equalled Alonso/Ferrari.

Just as you said Hamilton has had an especially sucky season, which is why people do this, to see what would have happened if it wasn't especially sucky.

id say he would finished ahead of button, or perhaps moved ahead if the team where more proactive, in japan

but he is paid millions and doing a dream job, so things arent too awful for him

Like I said, conservative. some people will give Lewis wins in Australia, Malaysia, china, will give him podiums in Germany and spa and Korea and japan. I tried to look at it from the worse POV, yet Hamilton is still ahead with more hypothetical points on the table

Like I said, conservative. some people will give Lewis wins in Australia, Malaysia, china, will give him podiums in Germany and spa and Korea and japan. I tried to look at it from the worse POV, yet Hamilton is still ahead with more hypothetical points on the table

It is true that whatever way you spin it, there is a mammoth points difference between Hamilton and JB. The only thing up for debate is exactly how massive it is.

Very fair TomNokoe. But many people won't let you discuss it without shouting Lewis fans down 'The world dosen't revolve around Lewis' etc...'

I'm not a Vettel or Alonso fan so its really hard to give them points retrospectively. Alonso has had Spa and that's really it.Vettel's has had a few which brings him closer to Lewis, but Karma also rewarded him with 4 wins in a row.

Its not a silly exercize at all. I credited Hamilton with the DNF at Spa, which is equal with Alonso on unavoidable DNFS - 1. I wasn't exactly generous, I made note of the bad races e.g Germany, Japan, Korea. Some people give Hamilton wins in places like Malaysia, Jesus.

I said it wasn't perfect as I was doing it from a Hamilton POV.

Off the top of my head.Vettel's +25 Valencia +15 malaysia -3 Hamilton +4 Italy Vettel still 11 points back. Silly to do Alonso as him and ferrari have near enough maximised everything. You said no one has a perfect season, but its 100% possible Hamilton/McLaren could have equalled Alonso/Ferrari.

Just as you said Hamilton has had an especially sucky season, which is why people do this, to see what would have happened if it wasn't especially sucky.

No you 're just creating noise. 3 Points lost to a SC. Spain .. would have won. Germany 12 points to a puncture. It's random noise. If Lotus did a better pitstop in Hungary Kimi would have won. If Ferrari hadn't persisted with the silly Canada strategy Alonso would have finished 2nd.If RedBull weren't dumb enough to keep Vettel in the pits in Q3 in Monaco he would have finished 2nd.If this if that if the other. If Mercedes had fastened Schumachers wheel in China he would have been 2nd. It's just noise. Noise you just choose to filter as just affecting Hamilton negatively.

As it is Lewis has 165 points vs Button's 153, 5th and 6th respectively in the standings -- that's the macca boys. Some drivers have more, others less points.

It is an interaction of mechanics and human input, sometimes it works great, sometimes it doesn't. What is all the phantasy speculation good for? -- Isn't there enough to contemplate and converse about real issues ?

As it is Lewis has 165 points vs Button's 153, 5th and 6th respectively in the standings -- that's the macca boys. Some drivers have more, others less points.

It is an interaction of mechanics and human input, sometimes it works great, sometimes it doesn't. What is all the phantasy speculation good for? -- Isn't there enough to contemplate and converse about real issues ?

For a lot of us fans we are really coming to grips with how Lewis had the potential for a great season, and factors outside of his control have taken him out. Forums are all about speculation and conjecture.

i think you could safely sumerize that without the near continous issues lewis has had this year, he would be solidly in the title fight

That is fair and I think we all could agree on that.

But I really think those virtual lists are missing the point. You are giving him all points back for the problems during the season, that would be then the perfect F1 season for a driver, with no mechanical issues, pit stop mistakes, etc... Not a single champion had a perfect season like that. There are always problems. The concept of those lists is not real. Even if you do the same with the other contenders and compare results. If anything, it is just an orientation of how bad or unlucky season Mclaren is having, or how poor they are performing.

For example, someone is giving Hamilton 25 points for Barcelona. That is assuming that if he was on pole he would not have done a single mistake. Or could be the victim of other drivers' mistakes-accidents, like Rosberg-Karthikeyan today.

I agree this season is really unlucky and this should be a three drivers fight.

But I really think those virtual lists are missing the point. You are giving him all points back for the problems during the season, that would be then the perfect F1 season for a driver, with no mechanical issues, pit stop mistakes, etc... Not a single champion had a perfect season like that. There are always problems. The concept of those lists is not real. Even if you do the same with the other contenders and compare results. If anything, it is just an orientation of how bad or unlucky season Mclaren is having, or how poor they are performing.

For example, someone is giving Hamilton 25 points for Barcelona. That is assuming that if he was on pole he would not have done a single mistake. Or could be the victim of other drivers' mistakes-accidents, like Rosberg-Karthikeyan today.

I agree this season is really unlucky and this should be a three drivers fight.

it's not just ALL points, it's also fantasy points. I mean the other guy called Valencia Hamilton's race. In reality Hamilton was nowhere in Valencia, his tyres were gone he had been passed by Alonso and Kimi, Maldonado was all over him and Schumi was catching up. So in a "neutral" outcome with no mech issues race order is Vettel-Alonso-Grosjean-Kimi then you can call Hamilton anything between 5th and 7th. But the other guy is happy to call it as 25 points lost. That's why I said oh lord before, it's ... funny

Aside from that, yes of course Hamilton has been unlucky. And yes, it's obvious without the major issues he's had he would be in the championship race. But from that to picking points out of thin air and declaring him "champion" there's miles of difference

For a lot of us fans we are really coming to grips with how Lewis had the potential for a great season, and factors outside of his control have taken him out. Forums are all about speculation and conjecture.

Man, I will be pumped if next years Merc is a decent car.

Well, I have never been very impressed with the fanatics-stuff (fans)-- as for me it diminishes the appreciation for the sport itself -- by blinding folks to simple realities of the sport in question. Like the fact that motorsport is a mechanical sport -- and failures, accidents etc. are integral part of the game.

Those factors outside a drivers control are just that, and it will not make the driver better or worse -- nor those supporting the said driver ought to get too exercised about the issues. Even on the forums, as that ends up being just silly.

But I really think those virtual lists are missing the point. You are giving him all points back for the problems during the season, that would be then the perfect F1 season for a driver, with no mechanical issues, pit stop mistakes, etc... Not a single champion had a perfect season like that. ...

it's not just ALL points, it's also fantasy points. I mean the other guy called Valencia Hamilton's race. In reality Hamilton was nowhere in Valencia, his tyres were gone he had been passed by Alonso and Kimi, Maldonado was all over him and Schumi was catching up. So in a "neutral" outcome with no mech issues race order is Vettel-Alonso-Grosjean-Kimi then you can call Hamilton anything between 5th and 7th. But the other guy is happy to call it as 25 points lost. That's why I said oh lord before, it's ... funny

Aside from that, yes of course Hamilton has been unlucky. And yes, it's obvious without the major issues he's had he would be in the championship race. But from that to picking points out of thin air and declaring him "champion" there's miles of difference

There's no doubt Hamliton's lost a large number of points this year due to mechanical/operational errors but real life is happening now people! If people are so fixated with making Hamilton win an imaginary championship then why even watch F1?! I come on here to get more information about what's happening to help me understand what's going on in the races. There's no harm discussing what might have been as you're discussing the impact of team/driver failing but it's been taken to the nth degree here.

Well, I have never been very impressed with the fanatics-stuff (fans)-- as for me it diminishes the appreciation for the sport itself -- by blinding folks to simple realities of the sport in question. Like the fact that motorsport is a mechanical sport -- and failures, accidents etc. are integral part of the game.

Those factors outside a drivers control are just that, and it will not make the driver better or worse -- nor those supporting the said driver ought to get too exercised about the issues. Even on the forums, as that ends up being just silly.

My two cents m8.

As has been said before, if McLaren had bullet-proof reliability maybe they wouldn't be as fast. F1 is all about compromises. Like it or not Hamilton is driving for McLaren this year not team perfect.

you do understand that it's a completely silly exercise, right? Alonso crashes out, we take the points thanks. Vettel's alternator fails, we take the points thanks. Hamilton's gearbox goes boom, we should have gotten those points = WDC

Nobody has perfect seasons. Nobody. Hamilton's season sucked more than others' from circumstances outside his control, true, but doing what you're doing is the equivalent of doing McLaren faster than HRT = + 165 points gained at HRT's expense.

But you are talking about 2-3 incidents. If Hamilton had the same number of incidents that Alonso and Vettel had, nobody would have a problem, as he would still be way ahead of them.

Kimi's win has made it tougher for Lewis to get to third place in the WDC this year, so it looks like fourth or fifth again. On the other hand, Webber also did not score so it is still tight between them.

I'm not even a fan of Hamilton, but it's clear to see that if he had had any luck, he would be up there with Alonso and Vettel right now. That car + driver combo was easily fast enough to win the world championship this year, but something just kept on getting messed up again and again. Many seasons tend to balance things out, and Hamilton too has had good fortune in some seasons, but there seemed to be none of it this year, that's for sure.

Something else to think about is that if McLaren had spent more resources and time to ensure that the car was more reliable, may be it wouldn't have been as fast as it is now. The bottom line is, when you start playing around with IFs and BUTs the possibilities are endless.

Another thread from the Lew fanatics on how without the worst luck ever to befall a driver, Lewis would be 3x WDC by now.

Every driver loses points throughout the season

But probably not so many points, in so many races through no fault of their own. As far as I can tell, that's the main thrust of the "lost points" argument.

Out of the last two races where Hamilton has been in dominant position (since announcing his move to Mercedes) he has suffered a mechanical failure both times. And in between those races, he has suffered some rather serious malfunctions where he could have picked up a decent points finish, if not a podium finish.

Surely having so many thing happen in the space of a few races is very unusual and warrants discussion?

you do understand that it's a completely silly exercise, right? Alonso crashes out, we take the points thanks. Vettel's alternator fails, we take the points thanks. Hamilton's gearbox goes boom, we should have gotten those points = WDC

Nobody has perfect seasons. Nobody. Hamilton's season sucked more than others' from circumstances outside his control, true, but doing what you're doing is the equivalent of doing McLaren faster than HRT = + 165 points gained at HRT's expense.

giving 25 to Hamilton for valencia says all I have to know about this list.

you do understand that it's a completely silly exercise, right? Alonso crashes out, we take the points thanks. Vettel's alternator fails, we take the points thanks. Hamilton's gearbox goes boom, we should have gotten those points = WDC

Nobody has perfect seasons. Nobody. Hamilton's season sucked more than others' from circumstances outside his control, true, but doing what you're doing is the equivalent of doing McLaren faster than HRT = + 165 points gained at HRT's expense.

While such calculations are somewhat useless, I think most of the people will agree that Hamilton is the unluckiest driver this season.

Yeah well there was that thread at the start of the season with subject whether Mclaren will cost Hamilton 2012 WDC. Well this year's Mclaren-Mercedes combo has definitely deprived him of the chance to even fight for it. Summary: Mclaren has done a fantastic job in managing to win nothing this year with such a great car.

If he'd had, shall we say, "regular luck", then I think it's very likely he'd be in the lead of the WDC by a good whack. I also agree with the need to remember the compound effect of taking points off of other drivers.

Not going to put a figure on it as some folk seem to be getting a little touchy

Well, quite an attempt, even though as with another hypothetical "alternate reality" it's hard to come to agreement how much points we are really talking about. Like it or not, we will always see through rose-tinted glasses in such calculation IMO.
But I agree that Hamilton lost quite a huge amount of points due to his team's cock-ups. It should be a three-horse race for the WDC now, between three top-tier driver on the grid! How great could that be, and I rated his season quite highly this year as well. Better luck next season Lewis, really wishing him good for next season (but not good enough to beat my favorite driver lol)!

Lewis has had bad luck this year but at the same time he is definitely harder on the car than other drivers. You have to wonder why he has such bad reliability compared to his team mate over three years.

This race's electrical problem most likely wasn't his fault and that is bad luck for sure but there has to be some reason why he always has issues like crashing into people and suffering gearbox failures etc

I just categorically don't believe that Mclaren have been sabotaging him for 3 years...nonsense.

They built an unstable/unreliable rocketship. How does that boil down to luck? It's about striking a balance between ALL the components. They failed to do so. Yes he has lost many points to things out of his control but certainly some of those issues were in the team's control and he's part of the team.

Like it or not Hamilton is driving for McLaren this year not team perfect.

Very true. Which is the interesting thing about the above, IMO: how McLaren wasted a fast car and a fast driver, and turned what should have been a strong WDC challenge into 5th place in the standings.

While its interesting to see such lists, im sure nearly everyone is in agreement that if lewis hadnt had such bad luck this season he would atleast be in solid contenstion for the title, if not in the lead of it

Very true. Which is the interesting thing about the above, IMO: how McLaren wasted a fast car and a fast driver, and turned what should have been a strong WDC challenge into 5th place in the standings.

Yupp. They were the strongest contenders for both silver cups this year, WDC and WCC.

Lewis has had bad luck this year but at the same time he is definitely harder on the car than other drivers. You have to wonder why he has such bad reliability compared to his team mate over three years.

This race's electrical problem most likely wasn't his fault and that is bad luck for sure but there has to be some reason why he always has issues like crashing into people and suffering gearbox failures etc

I just categorically don't believe that Mclaren have been sabotaging him for 3 years...nonsense.

He was suppose to be hard on his tyres. That rumour was put to bed in Spain. He is now hard on his car. I guess in 2007 and 2008 he was hard on his car so why didn't he have the same unreliability issues as in 2012.

Lewis has had bad luck this year but at the same time he is definitely harder on the car than other drivers. You have to wonder why he has such bad reliability compared to his team mate over three years.

This race's electrical problem most likely wasn't his fault and that is bad luck for sure but there has to be some reason why he always has issues like crashing into people and suffering gearbox failures etc

I just categorically don't believe that Mclaren have been sabotaging him for 3 years...nonsense.

Oh so now that your button is closer to him in the standings you start getting high and mighty , spiting out typical bull crap . Give me a break what u need to worry about is why Lewis said they could of had a 1-2 this race but button was struggling in a dominant car .

Lewis has had bad luck this year but at the same time he is definitely harder on the car than other drivers. You have to wonder why he has such bad reliability compared to his team mate over three years.