The following exchange between former New Jersey Govs. Brendan T. Byrne and Tom Kean - on the first of the scheduled debates between Republican gubernatorial candidate Bret Schundler and his Democratic rival Jim McGreevey - took place in a teleconference Thursday evening.

BYRNE:
Tom, you said back in late August or early September that if the polls still showed Schundler trailing by 19 points or so by mid-October, you'd see Republican candidates drifting away from the top of the ticket.

KEAN:
I think they need a few more years before their poll gets credibility. But yes, by mid-October, if Schundler hasn't shown some movement, he's in trouble.

BYRNE:
And the debate that was supposed to turn the tide hasn't.

KEAN:
We don't yet know how much tide was turned.

BYRNE:
The consensus among people at the debate was that Schundler did not score a knockout punch and that McGreevey exceeded expectations.

KEAN:
I don't know if that's true. I thought it was a pretty good debate. I thought McGreevey was particularly good on education, and Schundler was better on taxes. But I don't think anybody scored a knockout punch.

BYRNE:
Schundler was more skilled at ducking the issues. When it came to abortion, he addressed only partial-birth, not a woman's right to choose. On guns, he didn't say he promised the National Rifle Association he'd sign any bill that came to his desk.

KEAN:
On abortion, Schundler made it clear he's not about to change the law - and couldn't even if he wanted to. It's a Supreme Court decision. Where a governor can make a decision, he's against partial-birth abortion. As for guns, he said he would not change that law.

BYRNE:
That's not what he told the NRA.

KEAN:
That's what he said last night, and what he's said . . .

BYRNE:
I've heard him say several things. Do you question that he told NRA that . . .

KEAN:
I don't talk to the NRA. What he said last night and the day after the primary were identical. He's not going to change the law.

BYRNE:
Well, he did it very gingerly.

KEAN:
That's a pretty definitive statement, that he would not change the law.

BYRNE:
And he didn't deny he made that criticism about the State Police. He just criticized the New York Times for printing it.

KEAN:
What he said was that five newspapers were there, and four got the story right. Only one paper said he criticized the police. What he was saying was that that story was wrong.

BYRNE:
He didn't say the Times was inaccurate, only that they were the only ones who used that story. So you're denying he said it?

KEAN:
I think he was criticizing the reporter who . . .

BYRNE:
He didn't say the State Police sat on their fannies?

KEAN:
No, I don't think he said that.

BYRNE:
At the time, you criticized him for saying that.

KEAN:
Because I read it in the New York Times. But I believe that if four other papers didn't pick that up, he probably never said it that way.

BYRNE:
That's a pretty weak defense of Schundler, Tom, but God bless you. But the point is that Schundler had to be better than he was, at least by contrast, in that debate, and didn't do it.

KEAN:
I think we'll find that out in a week or 10 days. But what he left in people's minds is that McGreevey didn't say he wouldn't raise the income taxes. The last Democratic governor did that, and that's something people care about.

BYRNE:
I think McGreevey is being responsible when he says he does not intend to raise taxes but, in an era when we don't know what disaster we face tomorrow, he can't make iron-clad promises.

KEAN:
I agree nobody should make an iron-clad promise not to raise any tax. But when you're talking about the income tax, and living in a country pretty close to recession, it would be pretty irresponsible under the circumstances to raise that tax. It's the way to kill any recovery.

BYRNE:
So you're putting your faith in Schundler, who has made $5 billion in new promises, and $15 billion going to $18 billion in debt to pay off - and this is from a fellow who says we don't know the difference between deficit and debt.

KEAN:
Both candidates believe that the debt is too high and want to do something about it.

Q: From an audio-visual point of view, Schundler was predicted to come off looking more gubernatorial. Did he accomplish that?

BYRNE:
Nobody I talked to after the debate, and I was there, thought that. Schundler supporters were saying Schundler won, and the McGreevey people said he did not outshine McGreevey.

KEAN:
That's very difficult to determine. People who were there clearly felt Nixon won the Nixon-Kennedy debate on style and substance, but Kennedy clearly won where it counted, among those who watched on TV. It's very hard when you're at a debate to say who won.

BYRNE:
I think (independent gubernatorial candidate state Sen. William) Schluter won when he said neither candidate had the stature of a (former Gov. Richard) Hughes, Kean or Byrne.