Lisa M wrote:I'm wondering if anyone on the board has struggled with this issue, and what your conclusions were...

In our state, our kids have the opportunity to take community college classes during their Junior and Senior year of high school. So they can graduate High School with an AA degree, paid for by the school district. My daughter's chosen career field will require a medical-technical degree that cannot be obtained through CLEP testing or online courses. This will be a great way to decrease the cost of her education.

Unfortunately, that means she misses all of the great academics and Bible in the last two years of MFW! That's a bit of a bummer for me, and there is no way she can take a full load of college classes plus extra things I'd like her to take. I trust we have prepared her well, and doing CC while at home will be a good transition into the world of public education. It fits our mutual goals of preparing her for skilled work, while remaining debt free, and providing her a Biblical worldview to leave home with. We also expect her to be a life long learner, and not stop growing just because she is no longer taking home school classes:-)

But I really like what MFW has for the last two years! I can't have it all....I'm just curious what others have thought through on this.

Lisa,
I'm not there yet, but I've thought about this some. I'm up for some general chat. I hope you get a lot of different viewpoints.

So far, we've told our son that outside college courses would need to be in subject areas we are comfortable with, such a math. Even the Christian universities that offer Christian history courses and such aren't necessarily going to teach what we want to teach. We have a niece who lost her faith in college, so we are feeling very cautious these days.

So far, we just don't feel our children were or will be ready for full exposure to college before age 18-19. Although when our youngest reaches that age, he will have been homeschooled for many years and fully immersed in our faith and how it relates to the world around him, so who knows?

I did tutor and now work with a gal who went to the University of MN for at least two full years of high school. She even lived in the dorm in 11th, which shocked me, but said she was glad to move back home for 12th. I knew she was academically prepared, as she comes from a very academic-oriented family. And she seems to have weathered it emotionally and retained her character independent of what all the other kids were doing. However, she isn't a Christian (thinks all religions are the same, though some nuggets to think about were offered ) and her parents weren't attempting to teach her their values through homeschooling, so it was a different set of circumstances. Just saying that she doesn't seem to have been visibly influenced by the college environment at a young age.

I wonder if the Hazells would have good answers in this regard. Some of their kids have been very advanced.
Julie

I’m glad Julie chimed in because she lives in a state with that option. I’m shocked an 11th grader lived in the dorms! Faint. I know you said your child would live in home. That’s good.

I don’t live in a state with that option. There are currently dual enrollment options where the scholarships cover up to 2 college classes per year. So for me, it’s more will we take online or classroom college course for something like foreign language, or fine arts.

So, some random thoughts here for thinking about it. I haven’t drawn full conclusions yet as my oldest is only 9th grade like your oldest. I’m just playing “other side of the coin” with you because I wonder about just plain dual enrollment either online or in classroom just to get some college credits even if not a full associates degree. But these have been my personal thoughts on it and my struggles with it. So the “you” in my answer is always the “general” you and not the Lisa you. <smile>

Random Thought #1: There is always the weird possibility that you could end up moving within the next 2 years and it wouldn’t matter. (18 months ago, I didn’t know we’d be living in Memphis.)

Random thought #2: I doubt that the community college would have a Biblical worldview in its training, so you probably should still do that part at home. Why not use those parts of MFW if you decide to start college early? Can it be done as personal devotion even if not full academic credit? Hmm… I don’t know.

Random thought #3: if you did community college in 12th grade, that would give another year to use MFW and maybe God has other plans to open the gate for finances for the other year of college? You might be able to then plan to do mfw high school year round and get more of it before going to college. That way you get those worldview books from those years in as well. Part of me thinks well, debt free is good. But is this state funded option the only way to have that goal?

Random Thought #4: I do know of some people in MN who do the full college route in 11th and 12th grade and it all works out for them. I really got the idea though with one family it was mostly done online because they didn’t want to send their young daughters to college classes with 18 and 19 year young men even though they gave good solid training to their children. And if I remember correctly, one of the children got to take some online classes from a university in another state and it is still counted with the MN PSEO? (I think I have the right abbreviations there?) If that is indeed the case, have you looked into something likehttp://www.gatlineducation.com/hardingu/health.htm

Hot Topic random thought (eek! Not a hot topic with online debate potential eeek!)
Some people will say Jesus didn’t send children on the mission field, and we were instructed to not go alone on the field as adults either. So, who is going to college with her as her ministry partner so that the zero money cost for education doesn’t come with the price of losing her to the world? Maybe at age of 11th grade is too young to send them out without a mentor?

I’m not looking at debate on the hot topics, as much as sharing my personal thought processes on it. Debt free is an excellent goal. Many homeschoolers get scholarships and other ways to be debt free at the end of college. I know I want as minimal debt for education as possible. I know God provided for me in college and my husband for grad school and we came out of his phd program with no debt at all. His loans from undergrad were interest and principal deferred during his phd study and I worked. So we paid into savings to plan to pay it off in full. 4 years later with no interest since he was in grad school and we paid it in full. We were renting an apartment during the time and even giving about 15% of our income to church donations. Go explain the Kingdom economics on it because it never made sense to me. I gave the way God said, we rented. Car was paid quickly, no school loans on undergrad. Full ride scholarship for PHD at Northwestern.

I would say keep praying on it. Ask God to reveal if this is how HE as father is arranging for payment of college.

It sure does sound attractive at all of these homeschool conventions when our 18 year olds are debt free and have a college degree. But, part of me feels like I’m missing a better opportunity to be Biblically rich and maybe owe a few dollars for a very short term. I don't know.

You know… I have no answer, but like Julie, enjoy conversation. Hope to hear other viewpoints and thinking points as I'm right there in the same boat - except it would be full tuition paid by the state.

Julie had mentioned wondering what the Hazells would do. I wonder how that post secondary training thing they are thinking of doing is completely along?

I did not feel the need to rush my children into an adult learning environment even if the cost was free. This decision was greatly colored by the fact that I started attending college at age 15. Back then it wasn't dual credit......It was going to highschool all day and attending college at night. In my own experience there have been absolutely no long term gains from my early college experience. I am no better off at 40 something because I graduated with my degree several years earlier than my agemates. In fact, attending college at such a young age had a very negative influence on my late teen years. I was a good kid from a good family and there were situations that I really did not wish my children to experience.

My kids have greatly benefited from the extra years to grow spiritually and academically at home. Several of their friends who attended CC at a young age have struggled and floundered during their late teen years.

Our plan (note this is the plan.. haven't done it yet) is to have the best of both worlds. I have read College Without Compromise and I think we'll do a combination of these ideas.

We do not want our kids to leave our home before they are 18 but we will have a son who will graduate at 17. So what to do? We think we will teach him using MFW curriculum because I do think it's the overall best curriculum but we will also have him take CLEP tests. I've called the colleges that he is interested in ( note that he's in 8th grade so this might change) and they gladly take CLEP's. So, we will teach him using the curriculum that we have chosen and then he can review with the CLEP books and test on the CLEP'S therefore getting the best of both worlds. He'll get college credit ( for a much reduced cost) and still be able to be taught using material that we are confident in. We can do dual-enrollment if we want for a few classes, like math then when he graduates he can do service, make money or take classes at the local Christian University and then transfer to the college of his choice when he's 18 thus preparing him while still protecting him.

Interesting insights on all accounts! This is great input:-) And I need to update my signature - the kids are now grades 10, 8, 6, and 4.

I should explain our situation a little better. We are very active in our local school with sports, and taking classes like art and shop. We personally know and are friends with the teachers and coaches - it just isn't that big a community. We also know many of the teachers and administrators for our CC branch. Many are Christians. When there are only 1000 people around, you get to know them! We kind of have a "best of both worlds" scenario, where we can do academics at home and sports at our tiny school.

Fortunately, we will not have a traditional large classroom setting for her CC classes. Her classes will be mostly distance learning, either online or as 1 of 3 kids in a classroom watching a tele-course. So it is still pretty sheltered.

I agree that we have to thoroughly prepare our kids for the world before we send them out. But there comes a point we have to let them go, and they are responsible for their decisions. That's a tough line to find. We all hear the stories of a good kid who went to college and went wild. Was it the parents fault? The kids? It's an un-answerable question for an outsider to decide. I just look to keep my own house in order and do the best I can, with my husband, to train them up.

We have always had the goal to shelter and nurture early (allow them a rich and long childhood), then slowly release them into controlled situations that allow them to interact with the world, then come back home, then send them out, them come back home - basically giving them small bites to chew on then come home and discuss. Each child is different, but I have to say, even my 6th grader has a stronger understanding of Biblical truth than I did when I was 20. We have always spoken with them about living in the world as lights for Christ. I love watching my kids play unselfish basketball, giving up a shot to pass to a less experienced player who hasn't scored yet. Or having my daughter relate a discussion she had on the team bus about why she doesn't date. (it's always the girls that talk) Sometimes, it's the first time a girl, even Christian kids, have ever heard about the concept of NOT dating while they are in high school. And more importantly, why.

Every family has a different dynamic. Because my husband works "in the world", its very natural for our family to develop relationships with great people who are non-Christians. It's really hard to be a light for Christ if we only spend time with our Christian friends. And, sadly, some of our non-Christian friends are more loving and kind than the Christian ones - they can put us to shame!

So I guess what I'm saying is my kids have already been exposed to non-Biblical thinking and actions, and we've had some great training times based on those experiences. CC would not be the first exposure for them, but continued "limited" exposure.

I like the idea of pulling some MFW things for personal Bible time. And I will look into the feasibility of doing at least the US History course and CLEP testing it. They may accept is as a GUR credit for her AA. Great ideas!

My parents could have written that entire post. Small town, small classes, real world experiences,etc. My dad was even on the college board of the CC that I attended and many of the professors were 'watching out" for me. There was nothing "limited" about the exposure of non-Biblical thinking and actions in CC even in the best controlled situations.

I was tired at the computer last night, so I finally slowed down this morning and read every word of the posts with a fresh brain.

Wendy, Wow. 15!? That is really young to be hitting the college scene. Your comments and insight are greatly appreciated. There is no way I would have been ready for that- I was too busy being a kid. One of the concerns we are balancing is her sports, art, and music. We have options to take some classes 60 miles away, but aren't going to do that because we don't want "high school" to stop in order to go to "college". I'm glad you pointed out that concern.

And I agree... Non-Biblical thinking is non-Biblical, no matter who says it, and a little bit is still just as wrong as a lot. When I say "limited" exposure, I mean in relation to time and training - we won't be sending her off full time, living away from home, and allowing her to develop a completely new set of friends and acquaintances that we've never met. Instead, she would attend class or do the online work, but be home so she can ask questions as contradictions arise, rather than having to fend for herself in a new world. We'll keep the dialogue open on a daily basis just as we do now. Except now it will enter into her academic world in addition to her social world. Her degree can't be obtained at a Christian college, so public higher ed is her only route. I'd prefer a controlled introduction, and this is a tool toward that goal.

Crystal, I love the random thoughts

On #1) Always could happen! Unlikely for us, though, with my husband's certification being tied to this state. Only the Lord knows!

#2) I had thought about keeping up with the Bible for personal devotions, and as I said before, I'll see about the history component.

#3) One of my greatest concerns was missing out on some of the Biblical worldview MFW offers in the last two years. But I'm balancing this with the fact that my daughter plans to do at least one year after high school in mission work/ministry (we have specifics in process) that will provide her with more Bible training than a year of Bible college. So her training will continue even after high school.

#4) It will be mostly online. I think Spanish is the only class via tele-course.

I have a family friend in ministry who has chosen the CC route for her older two boys, and it has given them fantastic opportunities to help develop truthful and respectful responses to non-Biblical classroom teaching. But they have prepared their kids well for the battle.

I would not send a child who was still wishy-washy about their faith, didn't understand basic Christian doctrine, or had never been put in a situation that called for them to act on the faith they claim to have. (Not saying that was you, Wendy! Just something parents need to consider) Will they buckle? Will they give in? Do they even have the ability to discern? What is their character? These are the types of questions we have already thought through before coming to this option. In any group of Christian home schooled kids, some are ready to affect their world at age 16, and some still need a few years. I wouldn't presume that there is a general path that works for all kids and all families.

On CLEP testing, you have to be careful in your planning that you don't pay for and take CLEP tests that your school won't accept. For example, we can take the CLEP for biology and have it count for the university's general biology requirement, but it won't work as a substitute for any of the medical biology course she is required to take. So it would be wasted time and money to take that CLEP, unless you wanted extra testing experience. As much as I love the CLEP testing concept, it still comes down to the specifics of your intended program (that's my college financial aid/admissions experience talking).

Lisa M wrote:This is a good discussion... glad we're having it.. As much as I love the CLEP testing concept, it still comes down to the specifics of your intended program (that's my college financial aid/admissions experience talking).

Thanks. This is good stuff to think on

agreeing -- it's not a right/wrong decision. It's a getting outside random thoughts. I'm enjoying the conversation and perspectives a lot in my own thinking.

And I agree with you on the CLEP thing. yep. good advice in general on them.

My husband and I started dating in 10th grade and planed to get married right out of school. The best thing we did was taking PESO (college during high school). This gave us a year free of college that we wouldn't have to pay for. It was a huge opportunity for us, one I pray my kids take advantage of one day.

In our state, we can take college courses from age 13 on as dual enrollment. So I'm hoping that taking a course or 2 a semester from that point on will help us to finish an AA degree and still allow us to fully homeschool high school. I can't imagine missing all the super MFW high school stuff. The dual enrollment plus CLEP plus hopefully cross-my-fingers scholarships is our plan! And homeschooling till they're 40 seems about right, too.

It is so funny, though, that the letting go process is part of what is so hard about this. How much is "enough" and how much more will we remember that we forgot to teach them? And do they really have all the Bible knowledge they need in order to go out into the world? And did we really prepare them? Which is when I remind myself that GOD loves my children more than I do, they belong to him, and he asks us to train them up in the way they should go. If that meant I was to teach them a certain curriculum for a certain number of years until a certain amount of stuff was learned, I'm sure he would have been a bit more specific. I know he has a plan for them, which means he knows how much and in what way I would mess up! I pray his plan for them doesn't include counseling to recover from my parenting

Can you imagine trying to home school (or parent) your kids without God's grace in your life?

My friend lives in WA and has done Running start with both of her oldest -- but both started at age 17. They had gotten behind on their ACE paces so were still "Sophomores" -- but able to start Running Start with slightly more life experience behind them.

(Oldest got a Culinary Associates at Renton Tech and then was off and running. Second is still at Bellevue College, expecting to transfer after this year or next year)

I really think it is important to pray for your child in particular and see how the Lord leads you. I don't think there is a right way or a wrong way....but how does God want you to do it with your child (and it may be different with each one of your children). I actually sent my son to college at age 17. When he moved forward quickly in his academics as a young child, it never dawned on me that it would mean going to college early! A year before he started, I started praying the Lord would change my son's mind and stay home an extra year. He was reading the book "Do Hard Things" recommended by people here on this site. I can honestly say that I did not read it ahead of time. When I approached him about waiting and also told him that going to college was not all about being academically ready, but also being mature enough spiritually and mentally to handle what was going to come his way. Well......he said, "Mom, you gave me that book to read.....and it really says that you need to expect more out of us teenagers! There are too many stereotypes out there about us, and we can do more than you think!" Hmm....this was not helping my goal! So.....I continued to pray......yet......I was challenged to not just pray that the Lord would change my son's mind, but that maybe I needed to pray that if the Lord wanted my son to go to school at age 17 that the Lord would prepare my son. I prayed both ways.......and we felt that the Lord did a great work in my son's life and prepared him for school. This is extra hard for us because we live overseas in SE Asia as missionaries. We are just now getting ready to go back to the field. My son just shared with us one of his English papers.....and what a testimony!!!!! We have heard such great things of how the Lord is using him. I will be honest.........I have been scared. I have heard all the horror stories too. Yet, I know that my Lord is bigger than all the stories too. HE is sovereign, and I will trust Him. I don't know if this is the right thing for everyone......or if I would do that with all my children. Yet, I know, that the Lord clearly led in this way.

So, I say all that to tell you........PRAY.........BE in God's word..........and HE will direct your heart!!!!! It is amazing how He works. I have also learned that my answers don't always come right away, yet often times I look back and see how much I worried, but if I would have just trusted..........in HIS time........HE truly answers!

And of course...........as time goes on..........stay praying!!!! I think at times when we see things going well with our kids, we tend to get lax in not praying. At least, I know I do! Yet, that is when Satan will try and get his hold. So, don't stop praying........even when it is going well!!!!!

ilovemy4kids wrote:So, my son has the opportunity to take, Bible, Western Civilzations 1, and an English class at our local bible college in the fall. I know he can handle the work, that isn't the issue. My problem is that I LOVE MFW! I had planned on him doing WHL, in fact I already bought it! I know the teaching would be very sound and it would be beneficial to him to get the college credits out of the way, a real plus for long term goals. But I really love the way MFW integrates everything. I am toying with having him do the bible college, but thought I'd see what others have done or if you have any opinions of what you would do.... I'm not worried about negative influences of the other students. It's a small school and several of his friends will be going there as well. Please let me know what you think. Oh, I'd be driving him since he doesn't yet have a license, but it's not far from home.

Blessings
Sandra

I'm not even close to that stage yet, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. But, my sister, who is significantly younger than I am, was homeschooled for high school (not before and I wasn't at all). She ended up taking some of her junior year classes and all of her senior year classes at a nearby college. It turned out to be a real blessing. When she entered college, she entered with credits already and as a sophomore with many of her general education courses done. She still took 4 years to graduate (partially because of some disabilities she has), but that gave her a lot more options and leeway for what classes she had to take. When I was in college, I took a ton of credits every semester because I had so much I wanted. I went to a Baptist college (Cedarville University). Every student gets a minor in Bible. I LOVED my Bible classes (and finished my minor for Bible in 2 years and then ended up not returning. I have a minor in Bible, but the only degree I ended up with was my "Mrs." degree. LOL!) But, I also wanted another minor too. I had several things I was interested in and even ended up changing my major my sophomore year (as many do). I would have still been fine because I was taking so many credits at once, but the load was a lot. It would have been awesome to have had some of my required classes already out of the way by the time I got there. It would have taken the pressure off and allowed me more freedom to take more classes I was interested in. Also, it would have allowed me more time to change my mind on majors without having to extend my college career by a semester or more. Many of my friends who changed had to add another semester or 2 because they didn't have time to get it all in the original 4 years. So, while I don't have any children anywhere near this stage, I think taking highschool classes at a college is a great opportunity, especially if you have a Bible college!! That is awesome and not something we have where I am living now. I would take advantage of it.

As for the driving, my mom had to drive my sister around too. She is visually impaired. She won't ever drive. It was a lot of driving back and forth. My mom only had my sister. So, that is something to think about. But, if he has friends taking some of the same classes, maybe you could set up a carpool or switch off driving with other parents.

It's such an individual decision and we are just starting out in the High School years, but we would really like our son to have a chance to just be a high schooler. When he is older, if he really wants to go we will reconsider, but for now giving him the chance to experience high School is the plan.

It sounds like an excellent opportunity, and I would be as tempted as you to take advantage of it
I am the sort who would also not want to miss all the great stuff in WHL
If I were in your shoes, I would probably be trying to figure out when to fit in WHL along side of the college classes. I would be thinking of summer and Christmas break as great times to do some reading! I wouldn't try to do any full curriculum like the Notgrass history or English. But maybe get in some of the extra books in WHL, like More than a Carpenter, Pilgrim's Progress, etc. (depending on what might be read in the other classes).

Sorry, I'm not much help. I always err on the side of doing too much because I want to do it ALL

I don't know, either. I'm just posting to join in the conversation If we do cc, we'll probably do math, science, or something like worldviews but on a limited basis, since I still want to be there for discussion and giving my own perspective up until age 18. I'm one of those better-late-than early gals, too.

If your ds is up to all that and you know it's good/trustworthy, that would indeed be a temptation. Outside classes do look good when outsiders are evaluating our transcripts.

I'd look mostly at what I wanted my ds to learn. My oldest still did his complete 4-year standard program, even though he'd done a couple of things already (such as calculus). I like the idea of having the full college experience, and I think they learn things at a higher level when they are at the older age. So I wouldn't choose a college course in high school in order to get out of doing something in college, but more for what I wanted my ds to learn during high school. For instance, maybe my ds won't be raising his English standards as quickly as I would expect at home, and I might decide an outside English class was in order. Or I might decide another trip through the Bible before graduation would do my ds good, so I might choose a Bible survey course? Just thinking out loud,
Julie

Thanks for all of the advice and suggestions. We have decided to forgo the college courses for 10th grade. Our son helped in the decision, he said it wouldn't be fair to his younger sister! Seriously, he pointed out that we would have to drive him to and from the college 3 times per week, and while we were there waiting, Emily would have to do her work somewhere that wasn't home. Plus she would lose the school time involved in the drive time. Smart kid. Anyway, we opted to wait and re-evaluate for his junior year when he has a drivers license.

lotsuvlittles wrote:My dd did ECC as a 7th grader and is currently doing CTG as an 8th grader. She is very independent with her work and is a very strong reader and a good writer. She reads a lot on her own, G.A. Henty is her favorite author, and would not have any problems filling in her history gaps with independent reading.

Her plan is to complete two years of MFW high school and then complete two years of the high school Running Start program at a community college to earn her associates degree. Which two years of the high school program would you recommend for her to complete before entering college classes? Does it matter? Thanks!

It is my understanding that each of the years build on each other so the skills needed for the last two years are taught in the first two. I would go with the AHl and WHL.

Welcome to the board! I would call MFW office and ask to speak with their senior high school consultant to get a full plan.

however, I'm agreeing with Dawn.
I would go with year 1 and year 2, AHL and WHL. those are more suitable for grades 9 and 10. And you might get some CLEP credits too. You might ask the MFW consultant about the possibilities of using parts of Thinking Like a Christian to help even more with some worldview issues. There is even a college credit option with those TLAC materials. (not from MFW, but from Summitt Ministries via Bryan College in Dayton, TN)

But I wouldn't jump into the last years in MFW. And even if you've done CTG in 8th, it is ok to do AHL in 9th in order to do the full study with Old Testament and learn how to write argumentative essays. Then other writing in WHL.

Also, you'll want to check for specific requirements the comm. college has and meet them. For fun, I decided to do a search on Running Start program. I can see the appeal of having those first two years funded. Although there are slightly difference requirements depending on the college granting the credit, there are patterns I picked up on.

- Given the English requirements for eligibility..... go with AHL, and WHL. Given how those are the years with reading and studying the entire OT and NT... go with AHL and WHL.
- Work on staying on syllabus with the daily lesson plans. That will be a key to success in college program.
- Work on math and science at level.
- Have your student involved in service projects and juggling full schedule.
- and... definitely check the course listings and college advisor for Running Start program and make sure it will work out. I'm not 100% sure all of the colleges grant the associates degree. fun researching it though...

I HIGHLY recommend talking with the college before you make any final plans. I competed my senior year of high school in college as well, but I would not have been able to take two years. At least in Ohio, you can’t take any classes towards your major, only general classes. You will also want to make sure they have enough classes to meet the high school requirements. Example, to meet my 1 high school LA requirement, I had to take 5. sem. credits of college classes. There was a formula. I’m sure each state is different but you want to know before you start. I had to scramble to fit in a class that I needed to graduate high school . That’s just my experience several years ago. HTH

Martie
Married to Nathan 15 years
Mom to 8 boys ages 12 to newborn
Have used Kindergarten to Modern

What would you do differently if your student planned to go from MFW high school to post secondary options at a college their junior year? We just found out this is a possibility and my 7th grader is very excited!

Thanks for any advice or ideas,
Carrie

Hi Carrie,
Are you a Minnesotan by chance? I know PSEO is a big program in MN.

My son is in the midst of applying for PSEO his coming year, 11th grade. I don't know what I'd do differently, but a couple of things to keep in mind:

- The student needs to take a PSAT or PLAN (pre-ACT) test by the fall of 10th grade in order to be admitted to some of the colleges & universities (community colleges may have their own tests).

- You need to be able to produce a full transcript for at least 9th and 1st semester of 10th grades in order to apply to some schools (again cc may have their own requirements). Fortunately, MFW high school makes this super-easy. But if you're doing your own thing for any pieces of your credits, you'll need to be able to pull things together by the time you apply (some college applications are due in April for a September admission).

- Whenever your student has an outside activity, try to catch the teacher and get a letter of recommendation of some sort. Some schools require these types of letters. Some of the schools are asking for form letters to be filled out, but I figure if the teacher has done something when it was fresh in his mind, then the form letter will be easier to fill out. As it is, my son doesn't have any outside "teachers" of late, so I just asked his book club leader and math team leader.

Fun to see these young people get excited about their futures, eh?!
Julie