You get to pick one pitcher, within the system, FA or rumored to be available. Explain how you got him, and project his numbers.

I say the Reds sign C.J. Wilson to a 4 year 51M contract. Wilson has now had 2 straight seasons of 200 IP, and he's getting better. He profiles as even on GB/FB as a starter, has a good K ability and would benefit from switching leagues. His defense in TX certainly doesn't hurt him, and the same holds true in Cincinnati.

34 starts, 225 IP 3.00 ERA 210K's 1.15 WHIP 17 Wins.

This makes the rotation

Wilson
Cueto
Leake
Bailey
Arroyo

- per TRF off ORG

and this.....

Ok if I'm the GM and I have to get a pitcher by Any means possible this is my plan.

1) I call up Brian Sabean in SF and ask for Johnathon Sanchez, the Giants are loaded with starters and need help offensively so it'a a perfect fit.

Reds trade: Yonder Alonzo and Dave Sappelt

Giants trade: Johnathon Sanchez

-Yonder becomes the Giants 1st baseman replacing Aubrey Huff, while Sappelt gives them a young backup of who could be a 4th/5th OF and replace the losses of Rowand and Ross in CF.

-Sanchez then gives the Reds the Lefty in the rotation that they desperately need and helps to stabilize the rotation.

If I'm the GM, I want a cleanup hitter to protect Votto in the order, not a pitcher.

brm7675

10-03-2011, 01:35 PM

I am guessing we don't have talent others want because if so there is no reason why Walt wouldn't have made a deal and we know there are no monies available to add a FA so we are stuck with what we have. :(

Billy Hamilton's Legs

10-03-2011, 09:23 PM

don't deal votto. period.
use grandal, alonso as centerpieces and build around that and make an offer for someone like james shields. I unfortunately don't think shields goes anywhere this offseason unless the rays are forced to with a crazy offer. he only makes 7mil in 2012, and the rays can afford that. i see him much more of a trade candidate at the deadline or after next season. unfortunately it's hard to find affordable TORs. usually if they are affordable, I question the motives behind the trade for the other team (ubaldo).

dMaus14

10-03-2011, 09:35 PM

See I trade Votto and the reason I trade him is because a lot of people are saying the time to win is now! Well that is true but I don't want to go to the playoffs for two years then lose Votto and not be able to compete for another 3-4 years. I get rid of him because he is owed $30 million over the next two years with $19 being paid in 2013. Now even though a lot of our BS contracts are up then we can't invest 1/4 of our payroll into a player when we are a mid market team and have a viable replacement to go along with enough young players to use that money and sign to team friendly contracts to continue winning and even give us a chance to compete in free agency. This is strictly a business decision because I would love to keep votto but it sounds like he doesn't want to stay after 2013 and if that's true then ship him off. Plenty of pitching talented teams out there who need offense (Rays, Giants, WhiteSox, BlueJays, Seattle, LA Angels).

nate1213

10-03-2011, 09:41 PM

I've already propsed this elsewhere, so I will do the same here. I make two trades to get pitching this offseason.

1. Trade Votto and whatever lower level player Seattle wants for Pineda, Brandon League, and their top prospect overall in a pitcher named Walker. Seattle needs hitting in the worst way, and they have just the pitcher and center piece for it in Pineda. League is a cheaper alternative to Coco and with a lot more on the fastball. Walker was drafted last year out of HS. Fastball is 92-94 and has been as high as 96. The change-up is his best secondary pitch.

2. Secondly, I trade Grandal, Soto, and another throw in prospect for James Shields. TB really needs a catcher and a first baseman. This gives them both that could be ready by the end of next year.

Rotation:
1. Cueto
2. Shields
3. Pineda
4. Chapman
5. Leake

HalKing

10-04-2011, 05:01 AM

I like both ideas that Nate proposed, but I think it takes a lot to complete either trade. Either idea is only going to happen if you give up a number of prospects, therefore I think its a matter of choosing one or the other. In the case of Tampa Bay there isn't a better run organization in the major leagues right now. Just look at the haul they got from the Cubs for Matt Garza last season. These guys almost never swing and miss on trades. For the Reds to get Shields it would require a lot more than Grandal and Soto. Grandal would be a nice start, not sure Tampa would even be interested in Soto... like I said they are pretty savvy and Soto's MLB potential is questionable.

Seattle is a possibility that intrigues me. He'd be expensive both in prospects and salary, but I honestly think that some team could pry King Felix away from the Mariners. It would require a package of players that would flat out overwhelm them into making the deal, as I do not think they are even considering trading him. Pineda is younger and cheaper, so he isn't going to be easy to get either. Again, you are going to have to package 3, 4, maybe even 5 guys to get one of their stud pitchers. Since the Mariners are bad they just about have to be open to make changes. They need offense in the worst way so if the Reds went after Felix in an aggressive way they might have a hard time saying no. Something along the lines of Heisey, Francisco, Grandal and Homer Bailey.

Not saying thats realistic or going to happen... just throwin it out there.

Vottomatic

10-04-2011, 08:01 AM

no message

Vottomatic

10-04-2011, 08:38 AM

According to this report: http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AoPC7.DkGfKazhzOVWZTGoKFCLcF?slug=teamre ports-2011-mlb-sfo
....the Giants need a CFer, first baseman, and their rotation is set with Lincecum, Cain, Vogelsong, Bumgarner, and Zito. Sanchez appears to be the odd man out.

Snippet from article:

• LHP Barry Zito(notes) is due another $46 million over the final two years of his contract. Incoming CEO Larry Baer hinted Zito will return in 2012. For now, there’s no concrete No. 5 starter behind RHPs Tim Lincecum, Matt Cain and Ryan Vogelsong(notes) and LHP Madison Bumgarner(notes). It could be LHP Jonathan Sanchez(notes), or it could be Zito, who went 3-4 with a career-worst 5.87 ERA in 13 games (nine starts).

...also from article....

Biggest Needs: Hitters, hitters and more hitters. And better health. The Giants need a leadoff man, a corner outfielder with power and a young, athletic shortstop.

Stubbs and Valaika for Sanchez. Makes perfect sense. Sanchez is odd man out of their rotation, but is still very good. Stubbs still has value, can leadoff, has great defense, and Valaika can play SS or 2B (if Freddy Sanchez doesn't recover from his season ending injury).

Sanchez is arbitration eligible for '12. Deal hinges on signing Sanchez. Boras is his agent.

I'd throw in Hanigan if they'd throw in Surkamp.

brm7675

10-04-2011, 11:02 AM

I've already propsed this elsewhere, so I will do the same here. I make two trades to get pitching this offseason.

1. Trade Votto and whatever lower level player Seattle wants for Pineda, Brandon League, and their top prospect overall in a pitcher named Walker. Seattle needs hitting in the worst way, and they have just the pitcher and center piece for it in Pineda. League is a cheaper alternative to Coco and with a lot more on the fastball. Walker was drafted last year out of HS. Fastball is 92-94 and has been as high as 96. The change-up is his best secondary pitch.

2. Secondly, I trade Grandal, Soto, and another throw in prospect for James Shields. TB really needs a catcher and a first baseman. This gives them both that could be ready by the end of next year.

Rotation:
1. Cueto
2. Shields
3. Pineda
4. Chapman
5. Leake

I doubt Seattle would want Votto. Not because of his lack of talent, but because the lack of ability to keep him more then 2 seasons. You are basically giving up a quality pitcher for very little and a Votto rental. As for Shields, I think TB is ina position to basically demand the world to get him, so it would take more then you offered.

brm7675

10-04-2011, 11:03 AM

According to this report: http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AoPC7.DkGfKazhzOVWZTGoKFCLcF?slug=teamre ports-2011-mlb-sfo
....the Giants need a CFer, first baseman, and their rotation is set with Lincecum, Cain, Vogelsong, Bumgarner, and Zito. Sanchez appears to be the odd man out.

Snippet from article:

...also from article....

Stubbs and Valaika for Sanchez. Makes perfect sense. Sanchez is odd man out of their rotation, but is still very good. Stubbs still has value, can leadoff, has great defense, and Valaika can play SS or 2B (if Freddy Sanchez doesn't recover from his season ending injury).

Sanchez is arbitration eligible for '12. Deal hinges on signing Sanchez. Boras is his agent.

I'd throw in Hanigan if they'd throw in Surkamp.

Dealing with Boras is something I wonder if Walt wants no part of.

Vottomatic

10-04-2011, 11:23 AM

I like both ideas that Nate proposed, but I think it takes a lot to complete either trade. Either idea is only going to happen if you give up a number of prospects, therefore I think its a matter of choosing one or the other. In the case of Tampa Bay there isn't a better run organization in the major leagues right now. Just look at the haul they got from the Cubs for Matt Garza last season. These guys almost never swing and miss on trades. For the Reds to get Shields it would require a lot more than Grandal and Soto. Grandal would be a nice start, not sure Tampa would even be interested in Soto... like I said they are pretty savvy and Soto's MLB potential is questionable.

Agree that it would take more. But I think Grandal is a good starting point. I just think they'll want atleast one good pitching prospect back or a young guy like Bailey or Wood who has already pitched in the majors. And then probably a lower prospect or two.

Seattle is a possibility that intrigues me. He'd be expensive both in prospects and salary, but I honestly think that some team could pry King Felix away from the Mariners. It would require a package of players that would flat out overwhelm them into making the deal, as I do not think they are even considering trading him. Pineda is younger and cheaper, so he isn't going to be easy to get either. Again, you are going to have to package 3, 4, maybe even 5 guys to get one of their stud pitchers. Since the Mariners are bad they just about have to be open to make changes. They need offense in the worst way so if the Reds went after Felix in an aggressive way they might have a hard time saying no. Something along the lines of Heisey, Francisco, Grandal and Homer Bailey.

Not saying thats realistic or going to happen... just throwin it out there.

I don't want Felix anymore. He is too expensive and may not even be their best pitcher anymore. And while I think Seattle has alot of needs, other than pitching, I don't see them giving up quality young pitchers to get it.

nate1213

10-04-2011, 08:29 PM

I doubt Seattle would want Votto. Not because of his lack of talent, but because the lack of ability to keep him more then 2 seasons. You are basically giving up a quality pitcher for very little and a Votto rental. As for Shields, I think TB is ina position to basically demand the world to get him, so it would take more then you offered.

Ichiro's contract ends after next year, so I'm sure they could either not sign him back or get a discount so that he can end his career with the Mariners. Other than Ichrio, the only money they have anyone locked up in is King Felix.

Vottomatic

10-04-2011, 08:48 PM

Ichiro's contract ends after next year, so I'm sure they could either not sign him back or get a discount so that he can end his career with the Mariners. Other than Ichrio, the only money they have anyone locked up in is King Felix.

Almost true. They owe Chone Figgins $9.5M in '12 and $8.5M in '13. But other than Felix and Ichiro, their slate is getting cleaner and cleaner.

The DARK

10-04-2011, 08:52 PM

I doubt Seattle would want Votto. Not because of his lack of talent, but because the lack of ability to keep him more then 2 seasons. You are basically giving up a quality pitcher for very little and a Votto rental. As for Shields, I think TB is ina position to basically demand the world to get him, so it would take more then you offered.

For the record, Shields is only signed for 2 more seasons as well. Yes, he'd be cheaper, but Votto is one of the best and most consistent first basemen in the league.

I'd go for Sanchez if we had a chance, but I'd be reluctant about giving up Stubbs. We'd be selling him low, lose our only steal threat, and be reduced to Heisey in center, which substantially limits the ability to give Alonso a good defensive backup. Grandal and Alonso would be a good place to start.

Spike

10-04-2011, 11:44 PM

Matt Latos:

Alonso, Wood and Bailey.

Now and future ace.

It still leaves Mesoraco and Heisey for Andre Ethier.

Still have a solid 6 for starters with an ace (Latos) maybe two (Cueto) and solidy the outfield.

Solves our Ace problem, SS (and can move to 3rd if Hamilton or Cozart mature quickly), and we can move Alonso to first and keep Morrison in LF. Also a replacement for Cordero!

Marlins get their Prince Fielder type production at 1B but cheaper; their CF they are in desperate need of; a replacement possible ace and a 3B until Dominguez figures his S*I* out!

I will get you a better idea when I come back down from Cloud 9!

I think the cloud you're on is coming from that joint you've been hitting on... Hanley Ramirez??? PASS! Leo "whatever the fu*K your name is" Nunez?? PASS!!

and nobody wants Paul Janish... adding him in a trade is the same thing as subtracting from a trade. I'm all for the idea of adding Josh Johnson, but the rest of the trade is flat out screwed up. IMHO

Redsnake

10-05-2011, 09:19 AM

My $.02

Don't resign CoCo or Ramon. Try to dump Rolen.

Trade #1 Toronto:
Votto -Clearly not a Red pass 2013
Juan Fransico - No room with Lawrie
Wood - Rotation fill in for the loss os Morrow
Massett - Just want to see him gone.
Janish - Fill in

Reds:
Morrow - Not the #1 the Reds need, but clearly a #2-3, 203K in 179IP
Escobar - SS until Hamilton is ready, Still young and a decent OBP
Lawrie - The 3B of the future and a Allstar in the making.
Drabek - Doubt they would get him.

*Note* Votto goes home, the Reds get something in return. Bautista straight up for Votto would be nice, but Toronto holds the cards knowing Votto is theirs in 2014.

Trade #2White Sox:
Soto - Can start by June at 1B. Move Konerko to DH.
Bailey - Time to move on and give him and the Reds a new beginning.
Frazier - Can play LF, 3B and where ever else they want.

Reds:
Carlos Quentin - Finally a LF the Reds can plug in and leave there.
try and sign him to an extension.

*Note* Enough money could be saved by the above deals to go after and arm that could compete for the closer job like a Madison, Rodney, Mike Gonzalez.

Vottomatic

10-05-2011, 12:26 PM

If I make a trade with Toronto, I just cut to the chase and offer them Votto and Stubbs for Romero. Toronto has several other young starting pitchers on the rise, and they are still rebuilding in the toughest division in baseball (Yankees, Rays, Red Sox). They get hometown boy Votto who they probably get later anyway in free agency and they get another outfielder in Stubbs, since Rasmus and Snider have struggled, and Snider is injury prone. Reds get their ace, reasonably priced through 2015, I might add. Reds have Alonso to take over 1B and Heisey, with same batting average as Stubbs, better power, but less speed, and above average defense, to take over CF. Toronto gets their 3-4 punch from Votto/Bautista, and they still have lots of good pitching in the system. Reds get their reasonably priced ace.

I'm not trading Votto for Brandon Morrow or one of the other top prospect/top talent, but unproven starting pitchers. I think the Reds are ready to contend. I think the Jays are several years away as their young guys develop.

Votto is set to make $11.5M next season and $17M in 2013. Romero is set to make $5.25M in '12, and $7.75M in '13 thru '15 with a club option for the same amount for '16.

If you think Votto is going to bolt free agency, this is the way to go.

Vottomatic

10-05-2011, 12:47 PM

Trade #1: Votto + Choice of Wood, Bailey or Volquez to Toronto for Ricky Romero. Changed my mind because I think they'd want a proven starting pitcher in return. Might even be overpaying since Votto is, IMHO, one of the top 10 hitters in mlb right now and still young. Votto for Romero should be enough. But I'd throw someone not needed in if that's what it takes.

Trade #2: Stubbs + Valaika or Frazier to San Francisco for Jonathan Sanchez. Every Giants analysis I've read says they're infielders/outfielders (Huff, Derosa, Burrell, Torres, Beltran, OCab, Fontenot) are too old and breaking down, and their replacements are too young and not getting the job done. Stubbs has to be considered a proven major leaguer at this point, with speed and top defense. Frazier can play multiple positions. With Lincecum (ace and signed long term), Cain (signed expensive), Bumgarner (young and good), Vogelsong (young and good), and Zito (signed long term), Sanchez is the odd man out of their rotation.

If I make a trade with Toronto, I just cut to the chase and offer them Votto and Stubbs for Romero. Toronto has several other young starting pitchers on the rise, and they are still rebuilding in the toughest division in baseball (Yankees, Rays, Red Sox). They get hometown boy Votto who they probably get later anyway in free agency and they get another outfielder in Stubbs, since Rasmus and Snider have struggled, and Snider is injury prone. Reds get their ace, reasonably priced through 2015, I might add. Reds have Alonso to take over 1B and Heisey, with same batting average as Stubbs, better power, but less speed, and above average defense, to take over CF. Toronto gets their 3-4 punch from Votto/Bautista, and they still have lots of good pitching in the system. Reds get their reasonably priced ace.

I'm not trading Votto for Brandon Morrow or one of the other top prospect/top talent, but unproven starting pitchers. I think the Reds are ready to contend. I think the Jays are several years away as their young guys develop.

Votto is set to make $11.5M next season and $17M in 2013. Romero is set to make $5.25M in '12, and $7.75M in '13 thru '15 with a club option for the same amount for '16.

If you think Votto is going to bolt free agency, this is the way to go.

Votto is a game-changer, and two years of him is a lot more than just a rental. If you want Romero, throwing in Stubbs isn't necessary; they should have to trade straight-up at the very least. Romero isn't an established ace yet; he had a very good season, proceeded by Leake-esque production, at a time where pitchers are stronger than ever. I'd be looking for a good pitching prospect as well.

brm7675

10-05-2011, 01:06 PM

Trade #1: Votto + Choice of Wood, Bailey or Volquez to Toronto for Ricky Romero. Changed my mind because I think they'd want a proven starting pitcher in return. Might even be overpaying since Votto is, IMHO, one of the top 10 hitters in mlb right now and still young. Votto for Romero should be enough. But I'd throw someone not needed in if that's what it takes.

Trade #2: Stubbs + Valaika or Frazier to San Francisco for Jonathan Sanchez. Every Giants analysis I've read says they're infielders/outfielders (Huff, Derosa, Burrell, Torres, Beltran, OCab, Fontenot) are too old and breaking down, and their replacements are too young and not getting the job done. Stubbs has to be considered a proven major leaguer at this point, with speed and top defense. Frazier can play multiple positions. With Lincecum (ace and signed long term), Cain (signed expensive), Bumgarner (young and good), Vogelsong (young and good), and Zito (signed long term), Sanchez is the odd man out of their rotation.

I still ask the question, why would any team give up anything for Votto when they have no way of knowing if they can keep him after his deal runs out. Unless I could secure a contract extension with Votto and his agent pre deal, no way I deal for Votto.

nux fan

10-05-2011, 02:10 PM

go read org thread about center field to see what the boys there think of your pathetic hero

brm7675

10-05-2011, 02:35 PM

go read org thread about center field to see what the boys there think of your pathetic hero

What does it matter what they think? they only people who matter what they think of Stubbs is dusty baker and walt and both are happy with his progress. So weather you or any other fan don't like him it doesn't matter cause those who determine the lineup like him and have just a bit more knowledge of the player, the game and his progress over anyone here on this board...:thumbup:

Stray

10-05-2011, 02:37 PM

I'm not trading Votto. I bring in more talent to help him, and if we're out of it come the trade deadline next season I'd listen to offers.

I don't want Matt Latos. We saw what Petco Park did for Aaron Harang.
We can't get rid of Rolen or Arroyo, it's just not gonna happen.

Jonathan Sanchez is an interesting name I hadn't thought of. Part of me would like it because if he gets his control together he's got TOR stuff. The other part of me realizes we already have him so idk.

Edwin Jackson has pretty good stuff. I think he's gonna be a FA. James Shields can be had if we make a good offer.

This thread is a good read though...lots of possibilities.

brm7675

10-05-2011, 02:53 PM

When bringing in any pitcher you have to understand that unless they are a dominate ground ball pitchers his numbers are not going to be what they were before.

Redleg

10-05-2011, 03:11 PM

I am not for trading Votto, but if it does happen you better get way more than Romero.

I think they should trade Alonso and Heisey for Shields which should get it done. Then sign someone like Willingham and use Sappelt as the fourth outfielder and Francisco and Frazier could be the 5th and split with Rolen.

The window for this team to win a World Series I think has to happen with Votto so losing Heisey and Alonso hurts but neither are proven. If they got Sheilds and Willingham they would probably not be able to sign Cordero. They could use Chapman in the closer role for the year becaue he will probably be on an innings limit anyways. EV Wood and Bailey can battle for the 4 spot and you could use two as trade bait at the deadline for anything that is needed.

You could add Wood, Bailey, or Volquez to the trade with Tampa Bay for Shields but they are going to lose BJ Upton in a year so Heisey could be a starting outfielder for them. There payroll is half the Reds and Heisey could be a very valuable player for them. Alonso would start at first base for them or DH. He would also be a great player for them to get. You would be giving them two starters for probably the third best starting pitcher on their team.

I agree that the team can win without Votto for years but I think having a clutch player like him can carry you in the playoffs.

They will have money to sign a free agent if they don't sign Cordero. It may not be enough for Willingham. If Chapman is in AAA learning to be a starter then EV or Boxberger could close. I think Masset could even get the job done even though he struggled this year.

Vottomatic

10-05-2011, 04:12 PM

I am not for trading Votto, but if it does happen you better get way more than Romero.

Only 8 American League starting pitchers, with 29 or more starts, had an e.r.a. under 3.00. Romero finished 6th in lowest starter e.r.a.'s. Here is the list: Verlander (Det) 2.40, Weaver (LAA) 2.41, Shields (TB) 2.82, Fister (Det) 2.83, Beckett (Bos) 2.89, Romero (Tor) 2.92, CJ Wilson (Tex) 2.94, Hellickson (TB) 2.95. Of those 8 pitchers, Romero had the 5th lowest batting against with hitters hitting just .216 against him. Romero pitched 49 more innings (225 IP) than hits allowed (176). Current ages? Verlander (28), Hellickson (24), Beckett (31), Weaver (29), Shields (turns 30 this December), CJ Wilson (turns 31 in November), Fister (27), and Romero turns 27 in November. Second youngest of the lowest e.r.a. group with all his numbers trending better in his first 3 seasons, in which he started 29 or more games each season. Not to mention he is reasonably under contract ($5.25M to $7.75M) through 2016. And of the list of 8 pitchers, 5 are in the postseason, and Beckett almost was.

I think they should trade Alonso and Heisey for Shields which should get it done. Then sign someone like Willingham and use Sappelt as the fourth outfielder and Francisco and Frazier could be the 5th and split with Rolen.

The window for this team to win a World Series I think has to happen with Votto so losing Heisey and Alonso hurts but neither are proven. If they got Sheilds and Willingham they would probably not be able to sign Cordero. They could use Chapman in the closer role for the year becaue he will probably be on an innings limit anyways. EV Wood and Bailey can battle for the 4 spot and you could use two as trade bait at the deadline for anything that is needed.

I disagree about the window for this team winning in the postseason having to happen with Votto. Tampa lost 11 players last year and returned to the postseason because of their pitching. Giants won it all last year with pitching and a weak offense, although struggled to return this year because of the same weak offense.

Votto may be the key to obtaining THE ACE STARTING PITCHER this team so desperately needs to get to the postseason and win it all. We already have Cueto. Add Romero to Cueto and this team has something. And we have the luxury of Alonso to replace Votto. Even if he's 80% of what Votto is, it will be good enough.

Face it. Reds lead in alot of offensive categories this year and failed to make the postseason. They lead in alot of offensive categories last year, made the postseason, but didn't have the starting pitching to advance. What good is a Votto when clearly the Reds need an ace? And he may be the only trading chip to obtain REASONABLY PRICED top of the line starting pitching, such as an already under contract Ricky Romero.

That is my $.02 cents. :thumbup:

brm7675

10-05-2011, 04:22 PM

You could add Wood, Bailey, or Volquez to the trade with Tampa Bay for Shields but they are going to lose BJ Upton in a year so Heisey could be a starting outfielder for them. There payroll is half the Reds and Heisey could be a very valuable player for them. Alonso would start at first base for them or DH. He would also be a great player for them to get. You would be giving them two starters for probably the third best starting pitcher on their team.

I agree that the team can win without Votto for years but I think having a clutch player like him can carry you in the playoffs.

They will have money to sign a free agent if they don't sign Cordero. It may not be enough for Willingham. If Chapman is in AAA learning to be a starter then EV or Boxberger could close. I think Masset could even get the job done even though he struggled this year.

The money saved by not resigning Cordero will just go to cover other players who will be resigned and not near enough to sign a player like Willingham. Are you really confident in putting someone like EV who struggles to throw strikes in teh closer role? As for Boxberger, we really don't know what he can or can't do yet. I would much rather see someone like Bray or even Lecure be given a shot at closer over others.

Vottomatic

10-05-2011, 04:22 PM

You could add Wood, Bailey, or Volquez to the trade with Tampa Bay for Shields but they are going to lose BJ Upton in a year so Heisey could be a starting outfielder for them. There payroll is half the Reds and Heisey could be a very valuable player for them. Alonso would start at first base for them or DH. He would also be a great player for them to get. You would be giving them two starters for probably the third best starting pitcher on their team.

I agree that the team can win without Votto for years but I think having a clutch player like him can carry you in the playoffs.

They will have money to sign a free agent if they don't sign Cordero. It may not be enough for Willingham. If Chapman is in AAA learning to be a starter then EV or Boxberger could close. I think Masset could even get the job done even though he struggled this year.

What would be hilarious is if Walt and Bob decided to suddenly shock the baseball world, enlarge the payroll in surprising fashion, trade Votto for an ace, and trade some others for Sanchez.

1. Shock the world and sign CJ Wilson as a free agent, expanding payroll upwards of $100M.

2. Shock the world and trade Votto for Ricky Romero.

3. Shock the world and trade a couple of players for Jonathan Sanchez.

Rotation:

Romero
Wilson
Cueto
Sanchez
Leake

Arroyo to the bullpen with his rubber arm.

You could count on me buying tickets for 20 or 30 games if they did something like that.

What would be even funnier is after trading Votto, they signed Pujols as a free agent to play 1B.

I'd laugh hysterically while envisioning another World Series title. :laugh: :lol: :beerme:

Cue brm in 2 seconds.........wait for it........wait for it............boom! IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. WALT WON'T DO ANYTHING!!!!!

brm7675

10-05-2011, 04:30 PM

What would be hilarious is if Walt and Bob decided to suddenly shock the baseball world, enlarge the payroll in surprising fashion, trade Votto for an ace, and trade some others for Sanchez.

1. Shock the world and sign CJ Wilson as a free agent, expanding payroll upwards of $100M.

2. Shock the world and trade Votto for Ricky Romero.

3. Shock the world and trade a couple of players for Jonathan Sanchez.

Rotation:

Romero
Wilson
Cueto
Sanchez
Leake

Arroyo to the bullpen with his rubber arm.

You could count on me buying tickets for 20 or 30 games if they did something like that.

What would be even funnier is after trading Votto, they signed Pujols as a free agent to play 1B.

I'd laugh hysterically while envisioning another World Series title. :laugh: :lol: :beerme:

Cue brm in 2 seconds.........wait for it........wait for it............boom! IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. WALT WON'T DO ANYTHING!!!!!

Why do you think the Jays would want Votto? Given the need the Yankees have for starting pitching do you think any other team really has a shot at Wilson? As for Sanchez, don't know it all depends on what the Giants need and if we have those players that fit their need.

Vottomatic

10-05-2011, 04:42 PM

Why do you think the Jays would want Votto? Given the need the Yankees have for starting pitching do you think any other team really has a shot at Wilson? As for Sanchez, don't know it all depends on what the Giants need and if we have those players that fit their need.

Hence the words "SHOCK THE WORLD".

Is it your job to refute and dismiss every idea on this board????

I think it was pretty obvious my post was written with tongue in cheek, firmly knowing that the Reds couldn't afford or beat the wealthy teams out.

Again, that's why it was a shock the world post.

texasdave

10-05-2011, 04:47 PM

Is it your job to refute and dismiss every idea on this board????

:lol:

brm7675

10-05-2011, 04:48 PM

Hence the words "SHOCK THE WORLD".

Is it your job to refute and dismiss every idea on this board????

I think it was pretty obvious my post was written with tongue in cheek, firmly knowing that the Reds couldn't afford or beat the wealthy teams out.

Again, that's why it was a shock the world post.

Well you keep pushing this idea of dealing Votto to the Jays, and I just wonder why you think they would want a 2 year rental and be willing to give up their young pitching for it?

nux fan

10-05-2011, 04:54 PM

well you keep answering posters with your sphinx like naivite and deference to the genius of walt and baker, those two crackpots who steered this august club to third place,, your curmudgeoin like refractory knee jerk disagreements are maniacal, trade yourself for stubbs

brm7675

10-05-2011, 04:55 PM

well you keep answering posters with your sphinx like naivite and deference to the genius of walt and baker, those two crackpots who steered this august club to third place,, your curmudgeoin like refractory knee jerk disagreements are maniacal, trade yourself for stubbs

:confused:

Redleg

10-05-2011, 04:55 PM

I don't think the reds will trade Votto this offseason. They want fans in the seats and trading Votto for Romero(whom most fans don't know) would not be a good way to sell tickets. Romero would be a good pitcher to get. If you gave them Alonso what else do you think they would want. Alonso, Wood, Hamilton, would that be enough or too much.

Vottomatic

10-05-2011, 04:59 PM

Well you keep pushing this idea of dealing Votto to the Jays, and I just wonder why you think they would want a 2 year rental and be willing to give up their young pitching for it?

Okay. I'll bite.

My answer: I don't.

But.....

My reasons the Jays might consider it:
1. Toronto is Joey's childhood favorite team and his home country team.
2. From things I've read, and just using my gut feeling, and factoring in that alot of players dream of playing for the professional team in the city they grew up in or rooting for, I think Joey is interested in going home when he is a free agent. And other comments he's made, reading between the lines, he doesn't necessarily like the idea of going to New York or Boston.
3. Jays have an abundance of good pitching either already at the major league level or in the pipeline. Did I research their entire farm system? No. I read 2 end of season analysis of the Jays system and their current needs. Both recommended they trade their abundance of pitching to fill other needs. They have the pitching. They need hitting according to these reports.
4. Jays are young all over except for Bautista, and maybe Lind. Takes awhile to grow up and put it together.
5. Jays play in the same division as Red Sox, Yankees, and Rays. Probably the most competitive division in baseball. Votto with Bautista behind him would be pretty impressive offensively.
6. Because the Jays are probably several years from contending, they can afford to give up their ace. And they have several potential aces down the road, ala Cueto, who are developing well enough.
7. You have to give value to get value.
8. I think Joey would be willing to sign an extension with Toronto, unlike the Reds. Don't ask me while. Purely a gut feeling. But you'll still ask me why for some unknown reason.

It's all a gut feeling.

And I think pitching is the way to go for the Reds as I've argued over and over and over on these threads. Rays and Giants are perfect examples.

brm7675

10-05-2011, 05:01 PM

Okay. I'll bite.

My answer: I don't.

But.....

My reasons the Jays might consider it:
1. Toronto is Joey's childhood favorite team and his home country team.
2. From things I've read, and just using my gut feeling, and factoring in that alot of players dream of playing for the professional team in the city they grew up in or rooting for, I think Joey is interested in going home when he is a free agent. And other comments he's made, reading between the lines, he doesn't necessarily like the idea of going to New York or Boston.
3. Jays have an abundance of good pitching either already at the major league level or in the pipeline. Did I research their entire farm system? No. I read 2 end of season analysis of the Jays system and their current needs. Both recommended they trade their abundance of pitching to fill other needs. They have the pitching. They need hitting according to these reports.
4. Jays are young all over except for Bautista, and maybe Lind. Takes awhile to grow up and put it together.
5. Jays play in the same division as Red Sox, Yankees, and Rays. Probably the most competitive division in baseball. Votto with Bautista behind him would be pretty impressive offensively.
6. Because the Jays are probably several years from contending, they can afford to give up their ace. And they have several potential aces down the road, ala Cueto, who are developing well enough.
7. You have to give value to get value.
8. I think Joey would be willing to sign an extension with Toronto, unlike the Reds. Don't ask me while. Purely a gut feeling. But you'll still ask me why for some unknown reason.

It's all a gut feeling.

And I think pitching is the way to go for the Reds as I've argued over and over and over on these threads. Rays and Giants are perfect examples.

But if you are the Jays unless you can get a guarentee from Votto on the extension before the deal are you willing to risk it? Also, is this Romero kid fair value back in return and how do the Reds "sell" it to their very fickle fan base that you are dealing your MVP for just 1 player and someone I doubt most fans know?

Vottomatic

10-05-2011, 05:01 PM

Well you keep pushing this idea of dealing Votto to the Jays, and I just wonder why you think they would want a 2 year rental and be willing to give up their young pitching for it?

Simply, hometown stud goes home and signs an extension with his favorite childhood hometown team. Is that a good enough answer for you? :thumbup:

Vottomatic

10-05-2011, 05:04 PM

But if you are the Jays unless you can get a guarentee from Votto on the extension before the deal are you willing to risk it? Also, is this Romero kid fair value back in return and how do the Reds "sell" it to their very fickle fan base that you are dealing your MVP for just 1 player and someone I doubt most fans know?

I don't think it matters. Fans didn't come out enough to suit ownership this year after winning the division. Obviously the fans don't care that much.

And if they stand pat, it's more of the same next season.

I say pattern themselves after the Giants and Rays and go for quality pitching.

And if they can secure and trade for another top starting pitcher without giving up Votto, I'm all for it. I just don't think they will be able to.

brm7675

10-05-2011, 05:06 PM

I don't think it matters. Fans didn't come out enough to suit ownership this year after winning the division. Obviously the fans don't care that much.

And if they stand pat, it's more of the same next season.

I say pattern themselves after the Giants and Rays and go for quality pitching.

And if they can secure and trade for another top starting pitcher without giving up Votto, I'm all for it. I just don't think they will be able to.

So you are saying screw the fan base, possibly piss them off and deal an MVP for 1 player who overall is not "that great" of an improvement over Cueto or Leake?

Vottomatic

10-05-2011, 05:11 PM

So you are saying screw the fan base, possibly piss them off and deal an MVP for 1 player who overall is not "that great" of an improvement over Cueto or Leake?

Read post #31 of this thread. If you think Romero is not "that great" of an improvement over Cueto or Leake, then I'm done explaining myself to you.

But then again, Walt, Bob, Dusty, and brm know more than the rest of us.

texasdave

10-05-2011, 05:15 PM

But then again, Walt, Bob, Dusty, and brm know more than the rest of us.

:laugh:

brm7675

10-05-2011, 05:33 PM

Read post #31 of this thread. If you think Romero is not "that great" of an improvement over Cueto or Leake, then I'm done explaining myself to you.

But then again, Walt, Bob, Dusty, and brm know more than the rest of us.

He also gave up 26 homeruns and he would be moving to Cincy where I could see that number climbing over 30 to the mid 30's pitching in our park, don't you?

nux fan

10-05-2011, 06:08 PM

thats ok if it climbs to 50 he can be your star like arroyo

Billy Hamilton's Legs

10-05-2011, 06:40 PM

Read post #31 of this thread. If you think Romero is not "that great" of an improvement over Cueto or Leake, then I'm done explaining myself to you.

But then again, Walt, Bob, Dusty, and brm know more than the rest of us.

Look at FIP my boy, the true indicator of a pitcher's talent. You will see the past three years, Romero has an FIP of 4.33, 3.64, and 4.20 respectively. Those are not TOR numbers.

Don't deal votto for anybody, he's the key behind most of our success. Think about it. Look at the rotation we put out there, it couldn't possibly be much worse imho, and we still finish ~.500.

Two 3WAR players do not equal 1 6WAR player, plain and simple.

Let's try our best to win with Votto over the next two years and we can re-evaluate then.

Redleg

10-05-2011, 07:17 PM

Romero was a 6 war player this season but I wouldn't trade votto for him

brm7675

10-05-2011, 07:19 PM

I am never for trading an everyday player, especially on teh level of Votto straight up for just a pitcher. A pitcher may have an impact on maybe 40-45 games, where as an everyday player has an impact at maybe 150+. I would need more then just a pitcher.

Ohayou

10-05-2011, 07:52 PM

I don't imagine the Giants would ask much for Sanchez since they're debating on whether or not to even tender him a contract for 2012.

Vottomatic

10-05-2011, 07:54 PM

Votto will walk in free agency and the Reds will fail to make the postseason the next 2 seasons. Mark it down.

Votto is the trade piece to help build a contending pitching staff.

Offense doesn't win titles. Pitching does.

dMaus14

10-05-2011, 08:22 PM

A lot of people compare us to the Brewers situation with Fielder. Yes they didn't give up Fielder and are probably going to be in the NLCS this year. But there is a really good chance they won't be there next year. And for one winning season they completely depleted the top of their farm system. I think that is the worst thing that could happen to us is to trade everyone to TRY and get to the postseason with Votto. Pitching wins which the Brewers and Phillies have shown but why not give up your best player for 2 arms (hell I'd take 2 more Cueto types and another prospect). I think that's how we can continually win by competing now and allowing our farm to catch up.

I still feel Votto for Romero isn't enough on the Reds end.
At the very least try and get Lawrie in mix.

brm7675

10-06-2011, 11:14 AM

Votto will walk in free agency and the Reds will fail to make the postseason the next 2 seasons. Mark it down.

Votto is the trade piece to help build a contending pitching staff.

Offense doesn't win titles. Pitching does.

It is tough to trade a player with limited upside at this point. Any team that gets him pretty much knows they probably won't have him after 2 years so I don't think you will find many teams willing to offer much in that case. NOW, if a sign and trade type deal might work, but again, Votto isn't going to sign anything till he see's what albert and prince get in their new deals. I think Walt will get much more in return if he shops Yonder and others over Votto.

brm7675

10-06-2011, 11:15 AM

I still feel Votto for Romero isn't enough on the Reds end.
At the very least try and get Lawrie in mix.

there is no way I deal Votto for a pitcher straight up, I wouldn't even do it for Halliday straight up. A pitcher contributes to maybe 25% of the games a teams plays in a season, a postion player closer to 80% and higher.

nux fan

10-06-2011, 11:53 AM

would you trade robinson for pappas simpson and baldschun do you think that was a good deal or will you say that Dewitt was right because he knew m ore than the fans

Vottomatic

10-06-2011, 11:59 AM

In the postseason, a great starting pitcher can win 1 or 2 games in a series all by himself. I disagree with how much impact you think they make.

brm7675

10-06-2011, 12:22 PM

In the postseason, a great starting pitcher can win 1 or 2 games in a series all by himself. I disagree with how much impact you think they make.

that's true, but you have to make the post season. The Giants have one of the best rotations in baseball...how are they doing this season in the post season? Meanwhile the Diamonbacks have who outside of Ian in their rotation that scares people? TB has an incredible rotation...hasn't gotten them very far has it? I am all for having great pitching, I am just not giving up a position player on the level of a Votto for a pitcher straight up.

brm7675

10-06-2011, 12:23 PM

would you trade robinson for pappas simpson and baldschun do you think that was a good deal or will you say that Dewitt was right because he knew m ore than the fans

Robinson was traded because of skin color and the Reds felt he was past his prime.