What's the difference between these two? I thought that the Episcopalian Church is like an Anglican equivalent to ROCOR: the English Church outside of England.

LOL! I like it.

Think of the differences between the State Lutheran Church of Finland, and the independent Lutherans. Something like that.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

I'd like all those not too infected with the 39 Articles to come to their senses and all become Western Rite Orthodox.

« Last Edit: April 24, 2009, 09:18:03 AM by ialmisry »

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Think of the differences between the State Lutheran Church of Finland, and the independent Lutherans. Something like that.

So the Anglicans and the Episcopalians are not in communion with each other?

I do not know what the relationship is between the two Churches mentioned above, so I cannot say if they are similar. The Episcopal Church (Episcopalians) is the American member of the Anglican Communion which is made up of the various Anglican Churches in different parts of the world, generally by country, though not always. For example there are two provinces in India: the Church of North India and the Church of South India, but there are separate Churches for Australia, Japan, Canada, the US etc. A complete list may be found here:http://www.anglicancommunion.org/tour/index.cfm

All of these Churches are linked to the Church of England by heritage, but they are not under it per se. The Archbishop of Canterbury is the "first among equals" of the various Primates/Archbishops of the member Churches in the Communion.

There are other groups, some of whom have split from the Anglican Communion or one of the member Churches and some who have not been part of it who may use the term Anglican. It can be useful to know the links, as it were.

I hope this explains things. Please feel free to ask questions if I have not been clear.

Ebor

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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

I wouldn't mind at all if the moderators came here and left a large smoking crater.

The thing about being "infected with the 39 articles" is that, in recent years, only the evangelicals have had much truck with them. The old low church faction has been gone for decades, and the others-- liberal, radical leftist, high-and-wide, and A-C -- have no real use for them either, except for "the Bishop of Rome hath no jurisdiction in this realm of England", and that isn't even in the American articles.

The Anglican understanding of "in communion" is somewhat different than the Orthodox understanding. Anglicans practice "open communion," which means that any baptized Christian can receive Holy Communion at their services. Agreements of "full communion" like that reached between the US Episcopal Church and the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America are thus more practical than mystical.

I hope this explains things. Please feel free to ask questions if I have not been clear.

It clarified things quite well.

Actually only puzzling thing was that I associated "Anglican" with the Church(es) in England and "Episcopal" with Churhes within Anglican tradition but outside of England. But it seems that there are also some Churches outside of England which also call themselves Anglicans.

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But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.Leviticus 19:34

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

I hope this explains things. Please feel free to ask questions if I have not been clear.

It clarified things quite well.

Actually only puzzling thing was that I associated "Anglican" with the Church(es) in England and "Episcopal" with Churhes within Anglican tradition but outside of England. But it seems that there are also some Churches outside of England which also call themselves Anglicans.

Actually, you were not wrong in your associations as that was the case for decades, but the situation has changed somewhat in that . All of these are part of the worldwide Anglican communion. Originally, the Episcopal Church of the USA was the sole manifestation of the Anglican Communion in the USA until the Episc. Ch. started radically changing doctrine and moral code. As already mentioend, there is a movement of Anglicans that are now placed themselves under the jurisdiction of more traditional Anglican primates in Africa (still all in communion with Canterbury). Thus, you might see "Anglican" Churches here that were originally Episc. Church USA parishes that have now moved under more traditional bishops in Africa. This is somewhat of a serious "battle" within the Anglican communion for "what is our communion about." Some are now worried about Canterbury's hesitance to define what the worldwide Anglican Communion is about, and seeking to possibly cut ties with Canterbury and go somewhere else (Rome or Orthodoxy for example, while a few "go on their own" so to speak).

"Leaders representing Canadian and US orthodox Anglican jurisdictions approved applications for membership of 28 dioceses and dioceses-in-formation and finalized plans for launching the Anglican Church in North America (ACNA). Twelve Anglican organizations are uniting to form the ACNA.

The ACNA Leadership Council, in addition to accepting these dioceses as constituent members, finalized a draft constitution and a comprehensive set of canons (Church bylaws) for ratification by the provincial assembly. A list of the new dioceses, the constitution and the canons will soon be available at http://www.united-anglicans.org."

The only reason why the Church in america is called "episcopalian" is because of the revolutionary war (can't be having British Churches don't ya know) however the Episcopalian Church in America is in full communion with the See of Canterbury. Each Church is autonomous, but in communion with each other, and there really isn't any formalized beliefs. You can believe almost anything within the Anglican Communion (sadly) However the biggest issue in the communion is the American Church. They have gone so far off the beaten path, that they ordain female bishops, active gay bishops, female priests, active gay priests ect. They are the cause of a lot of schism in America. You have continuing Anglicans (which are trad anglicans..very Orthodox) and now the newest Church body ACNA (which is what the Church I am looking into is part of) that rejects the Episcopalian Churches over liberalization

The only reason why the Church in america is called "episcopalian" is because of the revolutionary war (can't be having British Churches don't ya know) however the Episcopalian Church in America is in full communion with the See of Canterbury. Each Church is autonomous, but in communion with each other, and there really isn't any formalized beliefs. You can believe almost anything within the Anglican Communion (sadly) However the biggest issue in the communion is the American Church. They have gone so far off the beaten path, that they ordain female bishops, active gay bishops, female priests, active gay priests ect. They are the cause of a lot of schism in America. You have continuing Anglicans (which are trad anglicans..very Orthodox) and now the newest Church body ACNA (which is what the Church I am looking into is part of) that rejects the Episcopalian Churches over liberalization

Metropolitan JONAH has spoken at ACNA meetings along with other Orthodox Priests. Who knows. They may become Orthodox judging from the applause give to representatives of Orthodoxy.

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The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

The only reason why the Church in america is called "episcopalian" is because of the revolutionary war (can't be having British Churches don't ya know) however the Episcopalian Church in America is in full communion with the See of Canterbury. Each Church is autonomous, but in communion with each other, and there really isn't any formalized beliefs. You can believe almost anything within the Anglican Communion (sadly) However the biggest issue in the communion is the American Church. They have gone so far off the beaten path, that they ordain female bishops, active gay bishops, female priests, active gay priests ect. They are the cause of a lot of schism in America. You have continuing Anglicans (which are trad anglicans..very Orthodox) and now the newest Church body ACNA (which is what the Church I am looking into is part of) that rejects the Episcopalian Churches over liberalization

Metropolitan JONAH has spoken at ACNA meetings along with other Orthodox Priests. Who knows. They may become Orthodox judging from the applause give to representatives of Orthodoxy.

How cool would that be PP

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"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Metropolitan JONAH has spoken at ACNA meetings along with other Orthodox Priests. Who knows. They may become Orthodox judging from the applause give to representatives of Orthodoxy.

Not a chance. ACNA has a large evangelical core and they have female priests in Pittsburgh.

Well, there a few dioceses that are heavily Anglo-Catholic- Fort Worth comes to mind. I doubt we'd see a whole-scale union with the ACNA any time soon, but (for the OCA at least) the ACNA is the only Anglican entity in America that there is any dialogue with at this time.

FWIW, Metropolitan JONAH's speech is what finally brought me over to Orthodoxy at a time I was debating the merits of remaining with the Episcopalians or going ACNA.

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"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are." TH White

Metropolitan JONAH has spoken at ACNA meetings along with other Orthodox Priests. Who knows. They may become Orthodox judging from the applause give to representatives of Orthodoxy.

Not a chance. ACNA has a large evangelical core and they have female priests in Pittsburgh.

they might see that ballast, and bail.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Metropolitan JONAH has spoken at ACNA meetings along with other Orthodox Priests. Who knows. They may become Orthodox judging from the applause give to representatives of Orthodoxy.

Not a chance. ACNA has a large evangelical core and they have female priests in Pittsburgh.

they might see that ballast, and bail.

Who is this "they"? The Three Catholic Dioceses shared ECUSA with female priests for decades. At this point the Orthodox churches are likely to get only individual priests and parishioners who develop new qualms.

Metropolitan JONAH has spoken at ACNA meetings along with other Orthodox Priests. Who knows. They may become Orthodox judging from the applause give to representatives of Orthodoxy.

Not a chance. ACNA has a large evangelical core and they have female priests in Pittsburgh.

they might see that ballast, and bail.

Who is this "they"? The Three Catholic Dioceses shared ECUSA with female priests for decades. At this point the Orthodox churches are likely to get only individual priests and parishioners who develop new qualms.

This is true. I think American Orthodoxy got all the anti-female ordination Anglican mileage we're going to get in 1979. Not that that wasn't some good mileage.

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"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are." TH White

Metropolitan JONAH has spoken at ACNA meetings along with other Orthodox Priests. Who knows. They may become Orthodox judging from the applause give to representatives of Orthodoxy.

Not a chance. ACNA has a large evangelical core and they have female priests in Pittsburgh.

ACNA allows each Diocese to vote on whether they will allow female Priests, but ACNA does not allow female bishops (ever).

My Church is part of something called an "Arch-deaconry" that all the Churches that don't want female priests are part of..kinda like protection or something.

And that Arch-deaconry could go Orthodox if the female priests and their supporters push their way into the episcopacy.Once a priest, what is to stop female priests and their supporters from asking for consecration to the episcopacy.

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The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Metropolitan JONAH has spoken at ACNA meetings along with other Orthodox Priests. Who knows. They may become Orthodox judging from the applause give to representatives of Orthodoxy.

Not a chance. ACNA has a large evangelical core and they have female priests in Pittsburgh.

ACNA allows each Diocese to vote on whether they will allow female Priests, but ACNA does not allow female bishops (ever).

My Church is part of something called an "Arch-deaconry" that all the Churches that don't want female priests are part of..kinda like protection or something.

And that Arch-deaconry could go Orthodox if the female priests and their supporters push their way into the episcopacy.Once a priest, what is to stop female priests and their supporters from asking for consecration to the episcopacy.

Well I can only hope that such a thing doesn't happen (woman pushing for the episcopacy, not going Orthodox) my Diocese allows female priests, that's why we have the Arch-Deaconry.

Metropolitan JONAH has spoken at ACNA meetings along with other Orthodox Priests. Who knows. They may become Orthodox judging from the applause give to representatives of Orthodoxy.

Not a chance. ACNA has a large evangelical core and they have female priests in Pittsburgh.

ACNA allows each Diocese to vote on whether they will allow female Priests, but ACNA does not allow female bishops (ever).

My Church is part of something called an "Arch-deaconry" that all the Churches that don't want female priests are part of..kinda like protection or something.

And that Arch-deaconry could go Orthodox if the female priests and their supporters push their way into the episcopacy.Once a priest, what is to stop female priests and their supporters from asking for consecration to the episcopacy.

We were talking about the ACNA, not Bishop Katharine's Episcopal group.

And yes, once female priests are allowed, demands for consecrations to the episcopacy will soon follow.

« Last Edit: January 11, 2012, 10:25:54 PM by Maria »

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The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

We were talking about the ACNA, not Bishop Katharine's Episcopal group.

And yes, once female priests are allowed, demands for consecrations to the episcopacy will soon follow.

Demands for female ordinations and consecrations will be futile, as they would be automatically rejected by any sane Orthodox bishop. And, if by some strange circumstance he does approve, his tenure as bishop and clergyman would be sorted out before he could blink.

I'm sure if any of that ever happened my arch-deaconry would jump ship so fast. I mean we already don't allow female priests, if female bishops where all of a sudden allowed.......funny thing I could see the arch-deaconry jumping to rome, or going Coninuing anglican or something.

The Three Catholic Dioceses shared ECUSA with female priests for decades. At this point the Orthodox churches are likely to get only individual priests and parishioners who develop new qualms.

Not a problem, as the heirs of Cramner have by no means ended the line of new things to have qualms about.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

The only reason why the Church in america is called "episcopalian" is because of the revolutionary war (can't be having British Churches don't ya know) however the Episcopalian Church in America is in full communion with the See of Canterbury. Each Church is autonomous, but in communion with each other, and there really isn't any formalized beliefs. You can believe almost anything within the Anglican Communion (sadly) However the biggest issue in the communion is the American Church. They have gone so far off the beaten path, that they ordain female bishops, active gay bishops, female priests, active gay priests ect. They are the cause of a lot of schism in America. You have continuing Anglicans (which are trad anglicans..very Orthodox) and now the newest Church body ACNA (which is what the Church I am looking into is part of) that rejects the Episcopalian Churches over liberalization

Metropolitan JONAH has spoken at ACNA meetings along with other Orthodox Priests. Who knows. They may become Orthodox judging from the applause give to representatives of Orthodoxy.

Metropolitan JONAH has spoken at ACNA meetings along with other Orthodox Priests. Who knows. They may become Orthodox judging from the applause give to representatives of Orthodoxy.

Not a chance. ACNA has a large evangelical core and they have female priests in Pittsburgh.

Well, there a few dioceses that are heavily Anglo-Catholic- Fort Worth comes to mind. I doubt we'd see a whole-scale union with the ACNA any time soon, but (for the OCA at least) the ACNA is the only Anglican entity in America that there is any dialogue with at this time.

FWIW, Metropolitan JONAH's speech is what finally brought me over to Orthodoxy at a time I was debating the merits of remaining with the Episcopalians or going ACNA.

The ACNA cannot possibly have women priests and claim to be heirs to US Anglo-Catholic Episcopalians. Don't you realise they have put the cancer into the ACNA? On this level they are entirely the same as ECUSA minus the bishops. The ACNA is not the only Anglican body in the US to have dialog with Orthodoxy. The Anglican Catholic Church which has no women priests, was founded at the Congress of St Louis in 1978, and whose orders derive from the three bishops who consecrated the first continuing Anglican bishops in 1978 has a worldwide presence, especially large in India. They had a senior ROCOR priest speak at their 2009 International Synod and since then have added a feast and collects of the Russian New Martyrs. At least the ACC has no confusion about women priests. They have yet however to come to an Orthodox understanding of the nature of the Church ie. that it is one and not a branch of a tree.http://www.anglicancatholic.org/index.php[urlhttp://www.anglicancatholic.org.uk/][/url]

To the Russians abroad it has been granted to shine in the whole world the light of Orthodoxy, so that other peoples, seeing their good deeds, might glorify our Father in Heaven, and thus obtain salvationS John of Shanghai & San Francisco

Metropolitan JONAH has spoken at ACNA meetings along with other Orthodox Priests. Who knows. They may become Orthodox judging from the applause give to representatives of Orthodoxy.

Not a chance. ACNA has a large evangelical core and they have female priests in Pittsburgh.

Well, there a few dioceses that are heavily Anglo-Catholic- Fort Worth comes to mind. I doubt we'd see a whole-scale union with the ACNA any time soon, but (for the OCA at least) the ACNA is the only Anglican entity in America that there is any dialogue with at this time.

FWIW, Metropolitan JONAH's speech is what finally brought me over to Orthodoxy at a time I was debating the merits of remaining with the Episcopalians or going ACNA.

The ACNA cannot possibly have women priests and claim to be heirs to US Anglo-Catholic Episcopalians. Don't you realise they have put the cancer into the ACNA? On this level they are entirely the same as ECUSA minus the bishops. The ACNA is not the only Anglican body in the US to have dialog with Orthodoxy. The Anglican Catholic Church which has no women priests, was founded at the Congress of St Louis in 1978, and whose orders derive from the three bishops who consecrated the first continuing Anglican bishops in 1978 has a worldwide presence, especially large in India. They had a senior ROCOR priest speak at their 2009 International Synod and since then have added a feast and collects of the Russian New Martyrs. At least the ACC has no confusion about women priests. They have yet however to come to an Orthodox understanding of the nature of the Church ie. that it is one and not a branch of a tree.http://www.anglicancatholic.org/index.php[urlhttp://www.anglicancatholic.org.uk/][/url]

Oh, I realize. Look at "Faith" under my screen name to see just how much I realize. That said, the Anglo-catholic element in the ACNA is just as Anglo-catholic as anyone left in the Anglican Communion- if that says anything at all.

You will forgive me, I hope, if I overlooked entirely the ACC- in the ensuing alphabet soup of all the different continuing Anglican movements that joined or talked about joining the ACNA it's very hard (especially for someone who has not really followed the news on these things since he started seriously investigating Orthodoxy) to keep track of what's what, who's in and who's out. Even without the current tumult of American Anglicanism it was always hard to keep track of the ACCs, the RECs, the TACs, the UECNAs, and others of the "continuing" and splinter movements; and now that I'm Orthodox I have my hands full keeping track of the alphabet soups where I can commune (GOA, OCA, AOC, ROCOR, etc) versus those where I shouldn't commune (HOCNA, AOMNSABI, TOC, GOCA, GGOCA, ad infinitum). I'll amend my statement to say that the ACNA is the only body in communion with other Anglican Communion members in dialogue.

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"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are." TH White

Well, on the one hand, some of this alphabet soup is getting cleaned up. The REC is now part of ACNA, and let me tell you, if women priests are an issue there, seeing the heirs of Bishop Cummins under the same roof as Bishop of Forth Worth is at least as strange. TAC is mostly disappearing into the ordinariate. I get the impression that the CEC is headed more into being yet another pentecostal group.

The flip side of this is that a lot of the continuers are extremely shy of church structure. I remember visiting Holy Cross Linthicum in the days before they bought their building, and encountering a group of visiting continuing clergy at coffee hour. One of them, a deacon from I don't recall which group, said flat out that they were completely uninterested in any kind of union among their various groups, because that was after all how ECUSA had made such a mess of their own house.

The final thing to consider is that the Three Catholic Dioceses managed to survive in ECUSA for thirty years after official ordination of women began. It may seem bizarre that Anglicans are willing to and indeed work around such difficult theological differences, but that's what we are.

Speaking of the Episcopalians, does anyone know how they legitimize having a femal primate? I was just wondering.....

PP

"tolerance" "fairness" "justice"? Some of those words come to mind in my attempts to ask them who they justify it.

In Christ,Andrew

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"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos

Speaking of the Episcopalians, does anyone know how they legitimize having a femal primate? I was just wondering.....

PP

The only thing I can think of, which may be close, is the mention by St. Paul of a greeting to a female deacon. There were female deacons at one point in the Church. I guess they figured that the goal of a deacon is often to become a priest, which led them to... Not saying they're right. Just that we did use to have at least some women deacons.