I did some Googling and found that Holocaust poetry and art are often/usually thoughts and feelings expressed artistically, by Holocaust survivors (or descendents). I saw that Mike is quite involved in this, including translatiing.

Having lost my son to a drug overdose in November of 2010, and having had some time to genuflect and recover some perspective- I can't imagine, what I would do if I thought that he would spend eternity in torment. I am so moved for people who are tormented by the thought of such a horrible fate being put upon their loved ones. It so motivates me to proclaim the glorious gospel of Jesus and the reconciliation of all things. We are so blessed. We have such a beautiful Savior- and such a wonderful God and Father.

That's a often heard ET argument. Boils down to this: 100% gets the offer. 5% accept it. 95% goes to hell because they choose eternal torture.

Yes if you ask somebody to go to a christian meeting of some kind MOST people would choose the flesh instead go somewhere else & spend the time doing what they like, (not attracted to God, somehow God is boring full of laws & rules which of course is not true, but if thats what they choose to believe him to be then thats there fault)

Im strugling with the classic verse > 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. Shall not perish? Maybe perishing could be just been flesh forever & not been able to live or partke in the spirit of glory? Jesus spoke of destruction, perishing I heard something verry interesting from a in depth bible study that Jesus only ever spoke of hell to the believers?? Im mystified by that?

only 1 thing can be true rather we are wanting to believe what we want to believe, Or its true what we feel he has showed us & God really is so loving beyond our imagination

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If you think you are wise, ask God to make you foolish

2 men look through the same bar, one see's mud the other see's the stars (Oscar wilde)

Forgive me if im taking the negative verses but in 2 peter 9 it reads > He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Again Perishing? I hope perish means punishment leading to an eventual redemption.

THere are lots of gems in Peter the new earth is a home of righteousness, not hell I just read. Ian mc cormack (also known as the Jelly fish man) saw a new heaven & earth, he went into darkest blackness before in the Glorious presence of the Lord, 2 Peter 2 v 17 These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. Ian wasn't shown any further insight regarding hell and the future of that place or for how long.

God bless you im going to bed now

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If you think you are wise, ask God to make you foolish

2 men look through the same bar, one see's mud the other see's the stars (Oscar wilde)

I can not go back to the god I grudgingly loved, and couldn't trust enough to save me, even as a Christian!

This is way I believe in UR

Because I tasted his never failing love, I am inlove with my great, awesome, almighty, powerful God who will never forsake me.

Amen thats a very sinciere sharing from a heart that knows it belongs to its loving saviour, I too despite some of my questions witness to the unfailing love that he has for me & for others too. This is the joy to behold & joy unspeakable I felt when he showed me things before, I should follow my convictions more than any doubts that scripture might appear to suggest otherwise.

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If you think you are wise, ask God to make you foolish

2 men look through the same bar, one see's mud the other see's the stars (Oscar wilde)

The one that I find explains it the best is the fact that death will be the last enemy defeated, which is declared definitively in Revelations. It doesn't matter what somebody says the 2nd death is. Spiritual death, physical death or seperation from God. Each one has to be defeated. To defeat spiritual death, God must make all spritually alive. To defeat physical death, God must make all physically alive. To defeat seperation from God, God would have to bring all into his precense. I don't see how you could get around that except to deny that the bible claims that death will be defeated.

Welcome Wiley,To those of us that believe in a scripturally based Ultimate Reconciliation, there has to be a denial of over 100 scriptures and reasoning from those scriptures. We look forward to more input from you.

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"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points - and that THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

The one that I find explains it the best is the fact that death will be the last enemy defeated, which is declared definitively in Revelations. It doesn't matter what somebody says the 2nd death is. Spiritual death, physical death or seperation from God. Each one has to be defeated. To defeat spiritual death, God must make all spritually alive. To defeat physical death, God must make all physically alive. To defeat seperation from God, God would have to bring all into his precense. I don't see how you could get around that except to deny that the bible claims that death will be defeated.

The one that I find explains it the best is the fact that death will be the last enemy defeated, which is declared definitively in Revelations. It doesn't matter what somebody says the 2nd death is. Spiritual death, physical death or seperation from God. Each one has to be defeated. To defeat spiritual death, God must make all spritually alive. To defeat physical death, God must make all physically alive. To defeat seperation from God, God would have to bring all into his precense. I don't see how you could get around that except to deny that the bible claims that death will be defeated.

I don't believe in a place of torment either, but death (the grave) and resurrection of All those in the tombs so that All are given a chance to receive Jesus or reject Him.

It's a bit how you define chance perhaps; but it isn't really a chance but a fact that all will (eventually) receive Jesus.God drags all man to Him. He's not begging.Joh_6:44 - No one can come to Him unless He draws them. You can't "chose" to follow Him.

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That gives us a choice. You can offer me a gift and I can refuse it.

That's a often heard ET argument. Boils down to this: 100% gets the offer. 5% accept it. 95% goes to hell because they choose eternal torture.

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If there is no choice and even Satan gets to rebel and be forgiven, what would prevent future rebellion?

Did satan rebel? He was a murderer from the beginning. Sounds he was always evil.

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Are we programmed to obey? Is God just currently subjecting us all to futility? I really don't understand.

Romans 11:32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.

Lydia: You asked some questions about free will, satan, fallen angels etc.It's a very long article but answers all/many of your questions I think. I also think many on this forum agree with most of the article.Lake of Fire Series halfway down teh page: http://bible-truths.com/

Hello All i have been away for abit doing my own studying on all of this i found some scriptures that suggest definatley ther eis an IF & also In Luke where Jesus is talking of marrige he menations about those that are WOrthy to be saved??I must admist also i came across a few that would suggest All will be probably sorted in the end eventually

I really dont want to sound negative here but dear Lydiah i think brought up brilliant points & i see she was given back more often UR beliefs using scriptures (AS AGREED BY TENT MAKERS WEBSITE WE CAN ALL MAKE THEM BELIEVE WHAT WE WANT EITHER WAY RIGHT?) I dont think here comments were specifically replied on but gave other answers, the thing baout choice makes alot of sense, WHY WOULD JESUS GO TO HELL PREACH TO THE DEAD in the 3 days after leaving the cross, it would be abslaoutley obsurd to suggest he went them drew them all to himself but by preaching? lol!

Im even going against what i though twas a revelation of salvation of all which I even testified but im starting to see now what i was gettin if i remember specifically was that GOD really really reallly of course loves everybody the same i was seeing that feeling that & not just toward smy humble friend who always speaks like the thief on the cross i especially u could see i nthe spirit all the grace he was getting & he'd say like but i dont deserve God to love me so much & u could just see the grace somehow poured on him, but my friend who always turns away from God talk i saw too god loves him also & as much, but it doesnt take away it still could be dependant on there choice at the end of the day, so there u have THe good the bad and the ugly lol! well of course i meaning on the terms of who was making the right choice, I was sat basking in his presence feeling the glory yes even feeling it, 1 was been bad by knowing he believes God but still even with alll the grace given doesn't actually turn to God time & time again & the ugly seeieng listening but still remaining to choose to not allow any kind of light in him. All that going by good on the merit of choice shows that the sure thing that God making a world which is perfect allowing Satan to reside in should give us enough logic to see the only answer for thta could be to TEST his clay on the basis of loving them enough to give them choice, note it says GOd wants alllllll desires allll but doesnt say he WILL save all in such an obvious verse, i haven't found it yet anyway. God wants ppl to love him out of love freely enjoying him fellowshipping with him the GRace is as WIIIIIDE spread as the fall was its freely to be recieved by alllllllllll them that have not heard the gospel can still turn to God under a tree i na jungle if they wish to seek this all powerful creator whatever he is say?I belive ther eis a wiiiideness in Gods mercy and than also many in the last moments recieve the most grace ever as Ian mc cormck testifies to that (Box jelly fish man who died for 20 mins body in the morgue all that) he says often regarding death dont u give up on them u knew werent saved cause its like time slows down i nyour last moments like the matrix kind of thing....

Jesus went to hell to preach, if Everlasting means age ending PTL!!! i hope so that be cool!but i'd say it be even more cool if them that LIVE NOw turn to GOD whic hthey can freely do everyday at any gicen time each & ever day isnt that chance enough????? wow so much time for it woooo!

Another big thing is that my friend tells me his friend who is a scholar in Herbrewic tells him creation in Genesis actually means more RE CREATION so here we are on a better canvass Satab & his fallen ones messed up earth in its pre NOW creation age, Gd then makes man in his image to save them all a happy ending just donesnt make sense let Satan be on earth? Can anybody specifically answer this part with UR beliefs, I would be very thankful to hear & learn more, mayb i need to see the bigger picture but CHoice Satan one 1 shoulder Od on the other doesnt sound to me like a genius God who is going to save alllllllll a su alll know God creates darkness too & has a very intersting relationship with the Devil to say the least SIMON SIMO Satan has asked thta u be sifted as wheat & the whole Job account its like sometimes Stan cleary goes into GOds office so to speak? why cause GOd wants to give us more hell than been human already no way, he wants refine us through fire & testing. Discilpine is good amen?We all need a black hole dark nights of the soul to see whter we use the heat shield or not can get through dark moments in our life as they will come around.

God pure genius i'd say everybodyt gets what they want if they love Flesh (Hell) they get it but of course not eternal torment as some kind of Sadistic God or meanine hell will be a good place just not as good as now on earth i reckon.

I pray & hope with u its age ending if its im a whole lot happier if its not it doesnt make me unlove GOd as i love that he loves us alll so much & did what he did through Christ & we can easily anyday any moment hour turn to him how generous hey?Very mericful & graceful, Grace is resting in that hope not good works that get us ther ebut just atleast not denying him turning against, wev'e recieved grace by the blood of the cross we have turned to Christ so he justfies us by faith in him & confessing him, called upon his name eternal life is a fre gift even more generous :O Did u get that eteral life a gift that alllllll can recieve.

& to answer the 95% dont 5% get hallelujah atlest some desired such a loving GOd :) Even in NOah's day only 8 survived woooooooo they were cool ppl tooWHat did Jesus say to his followers Even though you are evil!we are evil we need redemption his life his kindness to be changed into his Glory, evil ppl who refuse God to the day they die aww so sad they let themselves remai nthta evil of pride, & u must of heard of allllllll the near death accounts of ppl gettin trembling scared knwing that they were so evil they denied the living GOd (ROMANS 1 they have no excuse) but many especilaly powerful ppl get the pee in the pants &start believing in God sadly knwing in thereselves the conviction that they had not joy but a fear of now seeing the one they always refused.

I think UR has many truths & sounds pretty but it is more wishful thinking hopeful and caring whic his Gods love indeed i love that, but it seems to be able to face up the free will factor & cant live it down that if ppl choose flesh they will get flesh i'd call it a fair deal, and i just hope now hell is age ending if so i'll be the first to leap with joy & i'd be like wow GOd is extra gracious

I hope u lovley ppl are right i really do but its going against logic possibly, unless the age ending is just os bad enough anyway & more than enough to of shown his wrath on the disobediant. Yes thats me too but thanks God i have recieved him & he is author & perfector of my faith not me, he will se to it because i am his child IN his kingdom i allow my God to refresh me teach me love me its taking 2 to tango all the way i see it.

Love u all hope i made gave some food to chew on there, pls spit out the bones but if do please try to answer why if u can.

God Bless

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If you think you are wise, ask God to make you foolish

2 men look through the same bar, one see's mud the other see's the stars (Oscar wilde)

I'm sure the others will help you out, with you and your questions. Your perspective is indeed valuable. I know UR seems like a bit of a stretch, I know it seems like wishful thinking... but with God all things are possible. I know that UR requires heavy study, but God calls us to do these things, he does not want us to settle for tradition, but for him. If we are wrong, God will show us the truth, we put our faith in him, even though stepping outside of tradition is scary, he will always guide us to the truth, even if we experience conviction along the way.

Eternal hell to me does not seem logical. Why would God create Adam and Eve imperfect enough to damn most of the human race. He knew they were going to fall, he knew people would become evil. He knows the heart of every man before they take their first breath. Because he knows this, he has always had a plan. We can not say people will choose hell, because they reject Jesus. People do not know Jesus. They have never been blessed with his grace, his love like you and I have. I agree, Satan is here to test us, to help us understand the lessons of life.

God has put a veil over humankind, to purposely help us understand the truth when it is our time. I do not believe in freewill. I believe humankind can make choices, but only because of the situations they are in. For example if I truly had freewill then everything would be the way I wanted things to be, for an example I will myself to be without sin, yet i have a sinful nature. My freewill is limited, in fact my freewill is bound to sin. God knows my freewill is limited, he knows that humankind is evil, wicked and imperfect. Hence why Jesus died to redeem us. God is always in control, always.

It is clear in the bible that grace AND faith is a gift from God, we did not create faith, these two things are a gift from God, "least we boast". If a christian was to boast in front of God saying "I had great faith Lord" God will most probably help that man understand that it was not his faith that saved him, it was Jesus. See the thing about freewill is that it has turned into man saving himself by faith through Jesus, rather then Jesus saving fullstop. We must be, as Christ followers careful that we do not add anything to what Jesus did for us. There is a difference between someone thanking and praising God for his cross, but as soon as man starts justifying themselves because of "their" own faith..well that's like saying "I saved myself by believing in you Jesus"

Another big thing is that my friend tells me his friend who is a scholar in Herbrewic tells him creation in Genesis actually means more RE CREATION so here we are on a better canvass Satan & his fallen ones messed up earth in its pre NOW creation age, Gd then makes man in his image to save them all a happy ending just donesnt make sense let Satan be on earth?

God has not made man in his image yet. We are in the process of being made in to his image - "And God prepareth the man in His image; in the image of God He prepared him, a male and a female He prepared them."We will become fully the image of Christ when we understand the lessons of life, which IMO is love, and forgiveness. These things can not be taught without understanding, and experiencing them first. Mercy can not be forgiven without a wrong done. See the reason why there is Satan, evil, grief, wickedness in the world is so we can understand how great god truly is, and also how merciful. This is not just about happy endings bro, this about God building us towards understanding, so he can have individual souls glorifying him. We can be individuals unless we all experience something different. Experiences help shape us, and make us who we are, God knows this, and he knows what it will take so that all freely, and willingly choose him.

What is the purpose of an eternal hell? Justice? My understanding of perfect justice is redeeming the situation. See a murderer can go to jail or even get the death penalty, but that does not redeem the situation, or make things back to normal for his victims. With man perfect Justice is near impossible, with God he can obtain perfect justice. He can bring understanding to the murderer and teach the murderer and victim the lessons of life..Love and forgiveness. - That is true justice.

Do not get us wrong however, we do believe in punishment, however eternal punishment is something that we see beings no glory, or good to God. If God loves us, and never "casts off forever" why would he being all knowing submit himself to knowing 90 percent of his children go to hell without ever knowing the truth?

John 8:32 "Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." - Every man shall know the truth, and it will set them free.

My belief in UR didn't come about as a result of scripture. I cherish scripture and would really not want to ever be without it. I've spent a goodly part of my life debating and discussing the issues brought up by folk as they wind their way around the words. I've been on many sides.

Hair coverings?You bet!! Nah, don't bother.

Wine and Bread?You have to do it the way it says in the Bible (or as least the way John Philip Darby and his friends did it). I've had communion with a Coke and a Mars bar.

Version?It has to be KJV!! Good New for Modern Man speaks to me.

Baptize me?Baptism has to be in the name of all three. It's only two. It has to be immersion. Anabaptists go to hell.

Tongues?Speaking in tongues proves you are filled. Speaking in tongues is self-promotion and self-absorbed attention grabbing.

Either God is in charge, or He isn't. Either you belive that or you don't. Either that's enough for you or it isn't.

If God isn't enough for you, then nothing ever will be. If you know Him ... you know this. The thing is. I know my dad. It really doesn't matter to me if you can prove your position: don't get me wrong, I love a good debate and revel in a good discussion. To me the ultimate question however is: "Do you know your dad?"

If you don't know Him, then you can discuss who He is and what you think you can do to prove it till you're blue in the face. If you know Him, you would never insult Him by thinking His love is anything less than The Father's Love for everything He holds dear. I love my dad to the point of tears ... daily. I have often said that if He wasn't here I would have checked out a long time ago.

Yes there are scriptures to back up our stance. But, if I don't sense you know your dad, all scripture quoting sounds like a tinkling cymbal to me.

Joshua didn't need to quote scripture to the Children of Israel. He didn't need to argue with anyone. People knew him, and because they respected him, all he had to say was, 'as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.' Most people don't follow an abstract bunch of intellectual principles and say eureka. They get to know you, and respect you. They watch you and see if you really believe your message. Do you love, or are you just a wind bag who needs to one up them for his/her own ego boast? When they trust and come to like (love) you, they take what you say seriously because you believe what you say. I know, trust, and adore my dad. If someone needs something else to be important, well ... God bless you. Because I trust my Father implicitly I fall asleep in His lap: night.

"If God isn't enough for you, then nothing ever will be. If you know Him ... you know this. The thing is. I know my dad. It really doesn't matter to me if you can prove your position: don't get me wrong, I love a good debate and revel in a good discussion. To me the ultimate question however is: "Do you know your dad?"

Yes I do!

And he is the best Dad, more personal than a earthly father and more loving than an earthly mother.

Btw VB, who were you referring your post too? Battleaxe or me? Because I think this applies to everyone

Love is a never ending story.I was made and perfected for my part in the story.God spoke the story.I alone know my story so far.I seem consumed at times trying to figure out every body else's story.I hope my story is not the shading around and out side of Love.

Somebody asked about the word "perish" - imo, "to perish" is a potential, but which will never happen. This whole thing.. human history/God's truth proving drama, is in order to teach everyone some absolutely unbreakable truth (a rod of iron if you will )

I always believed in UR and the 100% Goodness of God.. been saved 34 years, but about 17 years ago I had what to me was quite an experience. My son, aged 16 at the time, asked me two questions which i answered, but I was not all that happy with my answers.

His questions? "Why was the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden?" and "Isn't it great we get to be an ant farm?"

So I prayed for better answers. I really, really, really, have a very deep desire to understand Truth, all Truth and nothing but, The Truth.

Bam!! the answers came back to me during prayer immediately!! And the whole thing ended with our Father asking me a question!! I'm telling you (as the saying goes) the answers knocked my socks off.. knocked me for a loop.. And I was a pretty solid and happy believer before this. My socks are still knocked off.

Truth as I understand it, or imo:

"Why was the tree of knowing good from evil in the garden"?Because when God endowed thinking ability, an offshoot (sooner or later) is being able to make choices. So when He endowed rationality, a whole new world (er tree) of possibilities 'came to be'. And our loving Father.. He can only be true/honest, so there was that tree smack dab in the middle of the garden of life.

"In the beginning God, and.."? Nope, "In the beginning, God." God is Life, life itself, the life force. Who/What else could be? (Yes, the force be with you ) He is Life. And, He is also Perfection. Certainly?

Perhaps you too see the 'problem', the dilemma.. the paradox? Fine and dandy to endow the ability to make choices, but what happens once one chooses any (teeny, tiny) thing which does not agree with God's choices? One begins to move away from Perfection.. and so they become the opposite of Life. Hence death. Hence needing to be rescued. Both from imPerfection and its result, non-life/death, the opposite of God/Life/Perfection.

He built into all things from the very beginning ("from the foundation of the world") the rescue. And He has only interfered with mankind's choices/'free-will' one or two other (dire) times, otherwise, it would not be choice, nor anything resembling 'free-will' (as imperfect as that too is).

Yes, I began to see how totally, totally wise (and truly all knowing our Father is!!) He saw all possibilities from 'the beginning', and where they would go, and He (of course) has done all things, in order to bring about the best 'end' result possible.

Because God endowed thinking ability, all suffer, some even horribly! But because God is Life, He suffers, lives through and experiences all sufferings and affronts which ever occur. Why would He put Himself through all that?? Because He's not creating an ant farm, or robots, but His very own family.

And, an eternally un-breakable paradise. Un-breakable because everyone will fully understand, and it will be deeply engraved upon every heart, mind and psyche, the knowing of all good from evil / life from death / true from untrue. Deeply engraved. Sad to say, but how do humans learn best? By experience.

Add to that what has to be a veRy long day of the examination (judgment) of all things.. all human history.. as to what went wrong.. and perhaps in some small instances, what went right. An intense 'day' of review for all of us. Deeply. Engraved.

I like to ask ET'rs, why is there a 2nd resurrection? I'm assuming 'their' belief is so he can cast them into a lake of flesh melting fire and thus unimaginable torture and torment forever and ever. Did someone say something about thinking ability? (Oiye!)

[ This insight came later.] It's only at the end of judgment/examination/engraving 'day' that is recorded the notorious words (paraphrased) "those NOT believing will go to the 2nd death"/will perish. But! After having experienced being resurrected, woken up, from ones sleep in the grave, and after having witnessed and lived through a veRy long day of the examination of all things, along with all your friends, etc... Who's noT going to "believe"???

God is Perfect, the 'end' result can only be the utter best-one-possible. I will leave it at that. Except for the question which came at the end of the answered prayer 17 years ago, the one my (our) Father asked me! "Why? Did God wait so long and only create the universe and man and woman, not only aFter the first bound to occur rebel thought occurred, but after it had ripened into outright sedition and trickery?" (Long, because surely when there was 'only' the Father, the Son and the angels, there wasn't that much to go astray about! He is infinitely patient. Didn't He know what would happen? Of course He did.) I was in prayer and the answer, by praying, came right back at me.

"Why did God wait so long, and only create the universe, and man and woman, not only after the first bound to occur rebel thought occurred, but after that rebellion had ripened into outright sedition and trickery??"

thanks for bearing with me.. We cannot conceive of how utterly, utterly wonderful He is.

I thought this was a different thread.. but i guess this fits here ok too.. and sorry is SO long!

« Last Edit: March 07, 2013, 10:19:57 PM by marie glen »

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God Is Very Geo-Political. "The nations will trust in Him"etc, etc.. & about Jesus - "the nations have seen a great light" ..& when He returns "He will judge between many nations, they'll beat their swords into pruning hooks and plows, and not learn war anymore, but each one under their own vine and fruit tree, and no one will bother them" -Micah 4:3,4. Mankind's history will fully vindicate God and the Truth at every point..

- Is it written? no repentance after death? if resurrected still in ones sins (2nd Resurrection)? Is it written no names in Book Of Life during age of Judgment?/doA?

I know the Bible isn't clear on this but this is my belief. Everything that was created was created by God in the initial six days. Angels are created beings. Therefore, I believe they were created sometime during the creation week. Also, since angels are messengers they were unnecessary when there was just Father and Son.

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"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points - and that THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"