Friday, November 23, 2007

Accept disgrace willingly.Accept misfortune as the human condition.What do you mean by “Accept disgrace willingly”?Accept being unimportant.Do not be concerned with loss or gain.This is called “accepting disgrace willingly.”

Everybody knows the old joke about the man who encounters an elderly gentleman looking for something intently along the gutter under a streetlight.

“What are you looking for, old fellow?” asks the first man.

“My car keys,” says the old man. “I know I dropped them somewhere in the park.”

“The park!? The park’s across the road! Why don’t you look for them over there?”

“The light’s better over here.”

And so it is with the Counterjihad. Here at Gates of Vienna you’ll find a little zone of illumination, the place where we gather to talk and argue and discuss. Somewhere out there in the murky dark beyond the circle of light the real Counterjihad is going on, but here we are: the light’s better over here.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

I bring all of this up because during the past twenty-four hours the intense hostility directed at Gates of Vienna has expanded to include the Center for Vigilant Freedom. I’ll be dealing with all the latest pernicious nonsense in a future post, but this morning I’d like to harken back to the early days of the current unpleasantness.

LGF has around eight times as many members — something like 20,000, with thousands and thousands more non-members who come here daily just to read the front page.

Gates of Vienna and Brussels Journal are lucky if they get eight comments in a thread. These are marginal people reaching out to other marginal people, i.e., SD and VB.

So all of you bloggers who deigned to set yourselves up as our “leaders” in the Anti-Jihad movement (what you called “Counter Jihad”) — and who organized a conference without talking to or asking us about it first — what we want, what we think — and then decided all on your own that our movement was going to ally with these “questionable” political parties in Europe — you had the unbelievable chutzpah to piss and moan at us lowly peons when we had the nerve to say to you, (our self-appointed leaders, deciding all on your own that we must ally with these people), “NO WAY IN HELL!” —————

Get this in your heads:

We don’t need you.

You need US. Without us, without LGF, you are for the most part isolated backwaters on the internet. LGF is the mainstream, you are the fringe, or otherwise just minor in the grand scheme. Understand? And after the inevitable denunciation and repudiation you are going to receive from LGF if you do not immediately disassociate from these political parties, what you call your “Counter-Jihad” is going to remain fringe and discredited as a cynical, dishonest vehicle of neo-nazis and bigots who aren’t really opposed to islam so much as anyone duskier than you, because they can’t possibly assimilate and believe in “European culture”, even if they are born and raised in it, as their genes preclude them from doing so.

You are never going to convince us that your new “friends” and fellow-thinkers can be trusted. Never — they have too much baggage, even if they have “reformed”, which I doubt. Get this through your thick skulls.

So the decision is yours. You will be formally and publically separated from this flagship, denounced, and you will remain on small, pathetic sites with twenty commenters, where you can all talk to each other about how much smarter you are than LGFers, and how you guys are the ones who will save Western Civilization.

(what a joke)

I suspect Charles is not going to allow all of his incredibly hard work, 365 days a year for the last six years, to be utterly and irreversibly ruined by association with your friends.

Meanwhile, the Lizard Nation will grow ever bigger and more influential, and you will only be able to watch in envy from the sidelines, self-marginalized, and thoroughly convinced that you guys are the real saviors of us all. You couldn’t be more wrong. [emphasis added]

I read this comment when it first appeared, and it’s one of the reasons I quit reading LGF. When people are saying that kind of thing about you in a public forum, you realize that it’s not a place you want to hang out.

Consider the implications of the bolded phrases in the above excerpt:

organized a conference without talking to or asking us about it first

“questionable” political parties

self-appointed leaders, deciding all on your own

LGF is the mainstream, you are the fringe

the inevitable denunciation and repudiation you are going to receive from LGF

You will be formally and publically [sic] separated from this flagship

Charles is not going to allow

you will only be able to watch in envy from the sidelines

Admittedly, these words are from a lizardoid reader, and were not written by Charles Johnson himself. And I’m sure that Mr. Johnson would deny that the sentiments expressed by Tasty Beverage reflect the official policy of Little Green Footballs.

Still… Mr. Johnson has banned people for saying things like, “I don’t agree with this.” One is led to assume that the commenter’s words reflect the party line, given the tendency of the leader to bring his followers quickly to heel when their views do not align with his own.

Ignoring for a moment the fact that Charles Johnson was indeed invited to Counterjihad Brussels 2007, and has acknowledged that he received the three invitational emails, consider the implications of these sentiments.

It is expected that Charles Johnson, the proprietor of the blog Little Green Footballs, shall approve in advance any gathering of anti-jihad groups.

No group or groups opposing the Great Jihad may gather for that purpose without notifying Mr. Johnson in advance and obtaining his approval. No party or organization may be represented at such meetings without being cleared with Mr. Johnson, nor may attendees associate themselves with proscribed parties or organizations. No one who has been friends with, talked to, had his photograph taken with, or indeed been in the same room with people belonging to suspicious groups may be invited to such a conference.

Violation of these edicts will be punished swiftly and severely by irrevocable excommunication.

Let’s overlook the arrogance, grandiosity, and megalomania implied by the policies outlined above. What about their practical effectiveness?

The weapons of punishment employed to maintain lizardoid ideological purity consist mainly of the flame war and the email spam attack. There is no gainsaying the effectiveness of these methods in dividing and demoralizing the Counterjihad. But how well will they serve our common cause, the struggle to confront and roll back the encroachment of sharia in the West?

LGF fields no candidates in any elections, and is not consulted in the making of government policy. The lizardoids send no lobbyists to Capitol Hill, nor do they introduce legislation in any parliaments. Charles Johnson does not appoint ambassadors to journey to Strasbourg and discuss the latest immigration issues with their EU counterparts. His order does not mobilize armies or scramble air force pilots.

Little Green Footballs is, in short, simply a talk shop, just as Gates of Vienna is. Its traffic profile is an order of magnitude greater than ours, but it’s still nothing more than a talk shop.

Real action occurs elsewhere.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

The LGF comment quoted above includes the gleeful assertion that Gates of Vienna and the Brussels Journal are pitifully small in traffic and comments compared to the huge and influential numbers displayed at Little Green Footballs.

The number of comments at LGF is indeed huge — although quantity does not guarantee quality — and Charles Johnson’s blog is truly mighty in its number of visitors.

But focusing on the traffic or comments at any given blog obscures more important facts. When you consider one blog’s traffic, you’re circling the lamppost looking intently at the sidewalk. Out there in the darkness beyond the little circle of light are more interesting facts; they’re just not as easy to see.

The relative traffic numbers are only significant if you let your ego get snared by such concerns and become pridefully attached to a single blog or website.

What’s being overlooked is the enormous new network that has formed, and is still forming. I don’t know how many bloggers are involved — there are a lot of them — but their numbers collectively amount to far more than those of LGF in terms of traffic or comments.

Add in the forums and other types of websites, the members of political parties, activists, and ordinary folk who are involved but only lurk at the blogs, and the Counterjihad becomes huge.

It just doesn’t show on Technorati, Alexa, or TTLB.

Nobody has a site meter that can track it.

That’s why all of this recent nonsense is not significant. It’s full of sound and fury. It’s annoying and occasionally infuriating, but it’s trivial and transient, and it will pass.

Something is happening out there in the dark that’s real and good and true, something that will make a difference. It can’t be seriously impeded by bloggers, journalists, or even politicians, because it arises from a source which is inherently unstoppable: the people themselves.

I know this because I’m actively involved with it.

Tasty Beverage is right: I’m a nobody. I’m just one guy bloviating here at GoV and emailing people I know and occasionally taking planes to discuss things at meetings. My part is insignificant.

But when all the parts are aggregated, something major takes form. It won’t be obvious for some time yet, but it’s happening out there in the dark all the same.

Everyone is welcome to stay here circling the lamppost, but rest assured: your keys are elsewhere.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Prominent people and politicians will be the last to climb aboard the Counterjihad because they are so attuned to conventional wisdom and received opinion. Their careers and reputations depend on it. They flee in terror from the accusations of “racism”, “xenophobia”, “Islamophobia”, and “neo-Nazism” flung so indiscriminately in all directions.

Journalists, political leaders, major academics, and CEOs of large corporations will not be among those who initiate dramatic change. They have too much to lose; their stake in the existing system is too great.

Real change does not occur in these circles. It starts out there in the dark and only moves into the light when it has become too large to escape notice. Then, without warning, the tipping point is reached, an alternative way of thinking arrives, and a new consensus forms.

In order to bring these changes about, thousands of unimportant people throughout the West will have to labor without recognition for years. It’s already happening: people are organizing in groups to stop the building of mosques, protest the Islamization of school textbooks, object to the separation of the sexes in public swimming pools, and insist on the enforcement of immigration laws. These efforts will continue, whether or not they obtain the Lizardoid Seal of Approval.

And CVF, along with innumerable other coordinating groups, will help bring these various networks together and keep them in communication. That’s our mission.

Trivial and tedious though these tasks may be, they are not without risk. Consider the example of Lars Vilks, the Swedish artist who decided to draw a picture of Mohammed as a roundabout dog. Such a small and innocuous act! But now he has a price on his head.

Someone asked him if drawing the Modoggies was worth dying for, and he said simply, “Yes, it is.”

We’re nothing special. We’re all nobodies. Our blogs are small, and nobody important reads them. We’ll never be interviewed by Wolf Blitzer or make the cover of Wired. We don’t get to hang out with the movers and shakers or ride first class on airplanes.

However…

Even though we’re midgets, there are a lot of us.

We’re an army of midgets.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

In times of stress or difficulty I find solace in mathematics or poetry, which are my two great passions. Nothing combines both disciplines as effectively as The Tao Te Ching. Within its eighty-one chapters can be found an economy of wisdom, guaranteed to provide a calming focus for the task at hand.

I began this rumination with a passage from Lao Tzu, and am returning to his words, this time from Chapter II, for its conclusion.

Under heaven all can see beauty as beauty only because there is ugliness.All can know good as good only because there is evil.Therefore having and not having arise together.Difficult and easy complement each other.Long and short contrast each other:High and low rest upon each other;Voice and sound harmonize each other;Front and back follow one another.

191
comments:

Now, this answer to the disgraceful behaviour from the lizards over at LGF reflects and symbolizes in the most beautiful manner the very reason why I choose, and will continue to choose, GoV as my favorite Counterjihad forum. Need not say more.

Contrary to what you wrote above, Charles Johnson has never banned a member for disagreeing with him. Anyway, this isn't about Charles or LGF. I still haven't seen you address the real issue of Vlaams Belang's pro-Nazi sympathies.

The biggest problem at LGF is that it has become an echo chamber, full of sycophants who believe that the blogmaster is always right. In the past few days, he's banned people for some pretty astounding reasons, and then lied about it to his flock. And the sheeple bleat: "Yes, of course you are right. You banned them, so obviously they did something wrong." How perfectly Stalinist. I'm not saying all bannings have been without merit(Gordon), but watching the banning of Ed Mahmoud (and his many names) unfold was the smoking gun that something was wrong. Ed didn't even comment as to whether Fjordman's stance on VB was correct, only that Fjordman likely posted under an alias probably for security reasons. Of course, we'll never really know, but Charles did call Fjordman out for not being man enough to use a real name. Of course, there are multitudes at LGF that do not use real names, for example, Highrise, NY Nana, Sharmuta, and of course Zombie.

I posted at LGF for years, and one day this month, I felt the whack of the banning stick. Only I didn't even get the courtesy of an explanation, even a lie (like was done to Ed) would have been something. Just blocked. I know that the reason is because I have taken issue with a few of Charles' brown nosers (the aforementioned NY Nana, Highrise, and Sharmuta) on other blogs, and they took issue with it. Oh well, I don't want to post in that echo chamber anyway.

You haven't seen me refuting them because other people have been doing the refutations. I have, however, excerpted extensively from the refutations and linked to them.

If you are willing to do some reading, go to the CVF blog and keep scrolling; the documentation is all there. 95% of the allegations have been refuted; most of them are leftist disinformation. The rest are trivial.

As for people being banned from LGF for disagreeing -- look at this thread for their personal testimony. I guess you could assert that they are all lying, but that would violate Occam's razor, and simply doesn't cut it, to coin a phrase.

We live in a time when film makers see nothing wrong with creating scenes of torture so accurate and visceral they may as well be real films of real crimes taking place.

We live at a time when "our" "leaders" would sooner drop fire on people than run a discriminatory immigration policy.

GoV critics, Lizards, read this and understand this: The Iraq War was a liberal war motivated by an internationalist universalist ideology that has everything in common with Socialism and no relation to fascism or capitalism. Many of the Newcons are all former Trotskyists. 'Regime Change' is sociological structuralism - Marxism.

They even tried to start a multicultural government in Iraq for Sunnis, Shias, Kurds and Christians.. All at 'the table of universal brotherhood' just like Martin Luther King advocated. The Iraq war was caused by the values many hold dearer than life itself. Thats why no one can see the wood for the trees.

There are millions of people brainwashed by demogogues and gnosticism into thinking the Iraq war was something other than what it really was.

Thank you for the links. The comments show 2 important facts: people are not banned for dissagreeing with Charles and some people who were banned (such as Ed) are dishonest about the reasons. Ed was banned for posting increasingly mocking comments at other sites, not for the thread at LGF.

As for VB's Nazi symapthies; denial is not the same thing as refutation. Nobody has explained away the white power statue or the signed photograph of the SS officer or the many photos of VB leaders with other racists and SS types.

I really do understand the truly dire situation Europe is in with resect to the jihadist threat. In my opinion, the anti-jihadist movement must build bridges to the mainstream if Europe is to survive. Aligning with the racist extreme right will further alienate the mainstream and seal Europe's doom.

Is there some way GoV readers and commentators can be sorted by country so we can get together and meet in the physical world? I'm all for action, not talk; which is one reason I shut down my blog at mesopotamiasest.

LGF is the mainstream, you are the fringe, or otherwise just minor in the grand scheme. Understand?

This LGF post conjures visions of "Lord of The Flies."

Perhaps it is the role of smaller communities to be the vessel for the embers of truth, particularly in light of the reality that the 'majority' of people inhabiting spaces of Western Civilization have not a clue.

I have no interest in reading those sites. If you are interested in learning the facts, go read them yourself. Ed had been doing it for months, becoming increasingly abusive. Charles explained his reasons the next morning.

But this is the way GoV turns the debate, isn't it? Claim the issues of VB's racism and Nazi sympathies were "refuted", (Q: How do you refute a photograph of the party leader smiling and shaking hands with an SS officer?)... then make a quick diversion to a personal attack on Charles Johnson. It's not about Charles. It's about the fricken' Nazi elephant invited into the room!

The self-righteousness and self-importance of many of Charles Johnson’s “minions” is amusing for just one reason, although there are several. While Johnson and his minions were fat, dumb, happy and voting Democrat pre-9/11, there were those of us who had recognized the threat of both Leftism and Jihad. Johnson’s Johnny-come-latelys now think they own the show.

You've just fallen into an interesting trap. You claim that you have no interest in reading "those sites" and yet you know that Ed has been doing it for months. Which is it?

For the record, I don't think you'll find a thing, because you're just carrying water for Charles.

Also for the record, I've not commented at all, anywhere on this VB thing going on, under any name I've ever used on any blog. I refuse to be dragged into that argument, mainly because I don't have enough independently verifiable information to form an opinion about this group. If they are as Charles says they are, a racist neo-nazi party, then he'd find an ally in me. But banning people because they are on other sites?

If you can't back up your statements, maybe you shouldn't post what you don't know.

Speaking as a Lizard, this episode has been disappointing. Perhaps the initial cautionary advice was warranted, but certainly it has been dragged into the mud too far. Banning quality minds such as Fordhams (sp) from LGF does not improve the quality of discourse going on there. And other posters I have enjoyed reading have also been banned.

Posters at LGF are now cautious for fear of being banned, and that is a loss for all readers of that sight. Not all are cautious, especially those with like mind, but you can see some are.

Rest assure that this Lizard will continue reading GOV as many Lizards do and even throw in the cautionary plug at LGF when appropriate.

Kenneth: are you really that foolish? Show one post that Ed made to prove what you have said.You are the counterpart of the heckling harpies three. Surely you do know of which I speak. The hounds were set on Ed in earlier posts because he belonged to GCP.I must say, NOT A STALKER SITE!! too funny every site is a lgf stalker site. Show the proof though kenny. show it or stfu

I am not sure I've ever left a comment here...does that mean I don't "count"...in the LGF way of viewing things? I have occasionally visited there, but it is like a raucous party atmosphere, and I don't like it. Here, I love it. I read daily. The voice here is true, pure, real. Inspired, even. Thank you for that. It won't be numbers that save the day. In the end it will be truth. God bless.

I meant that I have no interest in reading them today. I have in the past, including Ed's two-faced posts. And to clarify: he was not banned for posting at another site, as he had been do so for years, but for the content of recent posts.

Now I'm heartened to read you would stand against these groups, if you saw some evidence of VB's racist pro-Nazi sympathies.

So here you go, have a look for yourself. This video shows the VB party leader at his home with his kids, and the White Power symbol prominantly displayed on his shelf. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXTOX0H3288&eurl=http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=27709_Videos-_Vlaams_Belang_and_Vlaams_Blok&only

And here is a link to a series of photographs of Vlaams Belang parliamentarian Koen Dillen with Belgian nazi collaborator Leon Degrelle.

In response to this evidence you can either say you now see the light and reject VB, or you can claim the videos & photos were somehow faked (removing dust in low light conditions?), or you can ignore or delete my posts, or you can come clean and admit you're just fine with the Nazis.

I repeat: the problem isn't Ed or why he was banned from LGF. The problem isn't Charles Johnson or the people who don't like him. The problem isn't even somebody calling me a "pile of stinking excrement"... honestly, do you think that comment means anything to me? Really?

The problem is the very strong evidence that the leadership of Vlaams Belang has racists and pro-Nazi sympathizers. Inviting such a group into a coalition of counterjihadists is counter-productive.

IIRC...Ed's reason for being banned is because "he was a backstabber." Exact words. So Kenneth, Many eyes are upon those who hold themselves up to be pristine and holy. It is human nature to discover the bottom of it all. And lies are at the bottom of it all. And very frankly, no one cares what links you have at this point. who could believe you?

Contrary to what you wrote above, Charles Johnson has never banned a member for disagreeing with him. Anyway, this isn't about Charles or LGF. I still haven't seen you address the real issue of Vlaams Belang's pro-Nazi sympathies.

You were called on it. You can't produce the links, and now you look like the idiot that you are, and you can't deny that. So you change the subject to nazis. No one here is terribly interested in the nazi angle. We know what the scary video shows, but the plain fact of the matter is, you can't (or won't) produce the evidence you said you had seen about Ed being 2 faced. See the problem here is, if you lose credibility on this simple subject, then your whole credibility is suspect, and by association, so is Charles' credibility.

Good job Kenneth, by carrying water for Charles, you made him look the fool. Maybe he can ban you next.

OK, you made your choice. Thank you. Objective elavuation of evidence is irrelevant. You don't like me, so there. Are you're fine with the Neo-Nazis then?

I'm fine with allowing people who are in the KNOW to discover the truth of it all. People in Europe people who have it all on the line. Not some little computer base where people sit in their comfortable chair and are in no danger in case their rants are wrong. Nope. I don't care for Nazi but I care for Islamics less.In the end, these europeans will decide for themselves and I will be right there with them in whatever fashion that I can.

Kenneth I am real glad you came here. Some more sunshine into your dark corners. Your credibility.And as Judge Judy would say;" ANSWER THE QUESTION!!!" show the posts about ED. Don't change the subject. Need we nail your shoes to the wall?

Maybe I misspoke when I said no one here is terribly interested in the nazi angle. What that statement meant to be was that no one here is interested in your bleatings about nazis.

We're still waiting for you to produce the proof that Ed had been posting increasingly mocking comments at other sites, not for the thread at LGF.

This was your statement, you were called on it. At this moment, this is the only issue you are being asked to deal with. If you can't back up your statement with simple proof, then you have no credibility here. Stop making Charles look bad, he might ban you.

Someone emailed me to point out that Kenny runs back and forth between the comment threads here and the ones at his home base, lgf.

Evidently, he dropped his first comment here and then ran back to tell the other kids what he'd done and was sure he'd be deleted. Doesn't know we don't delete except for bad language. I guess he could come over and drop the f bomb just to make his point.

But he'd also be making ours: which that our comment policy is consistent. There is a large gap between the rhetoric of what Charles claims to allow on his comments and what he *really* permits...and that gap is becoming a chasm.

The emailer said ol Kenneth's been back adn forth several times, defending and blaming, depending on where he finds himself.

But then, the most interestiing information comes from Chas himself. Despite Kenny's protestations about why this other commenter (a guy named Ed) was banned, Chas says this, at comment # 142 on his Friday open thread:

I see that a commenter at GoV is still insisting that Ed was banned for a comment he left at LGF -- that's simply not true. As I've said before, Ed was banned when I learned that he was copying and pasting my comments at gcp, so all the creepy stalkers could make fun of them. In other words, he was banned for being a two-faced backstabber.

In other words, despite what Kenny says, Chas had a fit of anger because one of his commenters was disloyal on some other site.

As Kenny would say, "wow.just wow."

How much energy goes into following others around, making sure they're being good little droids?

What a Stalinist atmosphere. Not only do the lgf commenters have to toe the line there, they can be excommunicated for words written elsewhere.

Ed was banned for posting increasingly mocking comments at other sites, not for the thread at LGF.

Kenneth..you said that.YOU..all you need to do is prove it and not change the subject.See how different it is on another blog.By now, some harpies would have come to your rescue and saved your credibilty and CJ would have banned those in disent. But now then...all you can do is run off because you cannot prove what you said. So if you cannot prove that...how could one believe you?

Maybe my universal translator's on the blink or something. I think I already told you my opinion of nazis. If I didn't, I offer my apologies. Here's my opinion on nazis: I hate 'em. Is that simple enough for you? Can we get past that? We have common ground on that issue.

Now that this has been established, please demonstrate your knowledge that Ed had been posting increasingly mocking comments at other sites, not for the thread at LGF.

You have done your best to ignore this. All you're doing here now is losing credibility. If you can't come clean on, what to a person of your great intellect should find an easy task, such as providing proof with links ('cause frankly, we would like verifiable proof, I'm sure you know why), then what else can you be lying about? And over at Chas' site, you have Storagemanager defending you. You must be in bad shape to have him defending you.

Now, back to the matter at hand. Answer this one simple question: Can you prove your allegation that Ed had been posting increasingly mocking comments at other sites, not for the thread at LGF, or can't you? If you can, please provide the links. If you cannot, be a man and admit it. You'll be mocked for a bit, but you'll have gained back more respect if you told the truth.

As a fan of Ed for a long time, I can tell you that what Ed posted at GCP that earned his banning at LGF was very innocuous.

Ed posted his comment at 9:41PM. By 10:37 he was banned. A couple of things going on with this: (1) a reasonable person would not consider what Ed posted as "backstabbing." (2) Charles is either a liar (having publicly stated more than once that he would never again read comments at GCP), or one of his brown nosers is rushing to tell him all that is going on at GCP.

I was banned after posting a comment that was not about Charles, but rather about the lack of expertise with the commenters after Charles posted a question to them.

I think thin-skinned is an appropriate description of Charles in his current state of mind. Some might even call him paranoid.

Kenny you are truly pitiful.Answer the question.In a court of law you would have been impeached by now.It's the little discoveries that paint a man's credibility. No one is listening to you until you answer that question

I think you've got your groups lumped into the wrong categories. The Muslims are the new Nazis, except that they've been around much longer. The new Churchills are VB and the SD. You are perhaps one of the new Chamberlains.

Some time back by chance my car radio landed on Michael Savage and I began listening in earnest. About that time I also discovered Little Green Footballs. Both were fascinating and very interesting in their own ways. At first I wondered, what is all this preoccupation with Jewish this and Jewish that.

And finally I got it that both LGF and Michael Savage are polarized in some kind of Jewish-centered paralysis. And this present post is coming from as much of an Israel supported as you can get.

M. Savage's strident style of stepping on any who breath a different point of view is too distasteful for me to tolerate any longer. Though I do tune in to his show periodically to test the 'interest and relevance'level.

And LGF simply disappoints me by succumbing to the smallmindedness of this beef with Fjordman et al. And that's what it is: small minded. They can and should stay above the pettiness and remain professional, as much as can be in this climate.

The arrogance and loud mouths of strident, polarized Jews end up turning otherwise supporters away. And that ain't in the interest, so to speak.

We don't want to see Israel go down again. It is at great cost that people risk there lives to support Jews when the times take a dark turn. Don't hasten the darkness.

However, the slamming of gates goes on at lgf all day long, every day. Not a day goes by that there aren't sneering, smearing put downs and name calling about us at lgf. They are truly stuck on slander.

Why are we, a small blog, so important to his commenters? This has been going on for over a month with no let up.

At some point, integrity becomes important. We didn't start this conflict and we don't know how it will end.

But you won't see these kinds of posts very often because it *is* a distraction from our real work.

It makes me smile to think we're in the same boat with Ron Paul and all the other EOC -- Enemies of Charles. Lord knows he has many of them, all selected by him -- for whatever motivation only he knows.

Bullying is a self-detructive behavior, but it is one Charles does frequently. You can tell his level of feeling threatened by how often he appears in the comments thread. An intriguing phenomenon.

Kenneth, you were asked a question. Please remember, this goes to your credibility.

If you can't answer the simple question, and provide the links, admit it. But this senseless bleating about it's the neo-nazis just isn't cutting it anymore. We get it about the nazis. Nazis are bad. We read all about them in school. We understand that.

Can we please move on from the nazis?

Prove that Ed had been posting increasingly mocking comments at other sites, not for the thread at LGF.

I kind of expected the banning, actually. The daily bash Fjordman threads were just getting annoying, and I knew someone (Tasty Beverage, apparently, like 'Fjordman', not the poster's legal name) from LGF had registered at GCP just to report back what people wrote there. But GCP is the stalker blog.

Interesting.

I'm not even 100% in agreement with Fjordman, as I listened to the Filip DeWinter interview and have suspicions he is indeed a racist.

But almost daily threads, because Fjordman is obsessed, apparently, a false accusation, then the statement that he won't apologize to Fjordman because he posts under an alias. Well, I cut and pasted Charles' non-apology and my answer, at GCP. No mocking involved.

BTW, for over a week Johnson included the Swedish Democrats along with VB (which seems to me to have some neo-Nazi baggage, but not having toured Europe as a bass guitarist in a jazz band I don't claim to be an absolute expert on European politics) in his counter-counter-jihad. I guess even Johnson eventually realized there was nothing in the last ten years that would indicate any Nazis in any position other than the fringe of the SD.

So, progress, I guess. Sort of.

But as far as two faced, I posted nothing at Gulf Coast Pundit I hadn't made clear at LGF. So maybe I was banned for posting on another blog, not for the opinion.

Why was Fjordman banned?

Do note that mentioning LGF on another blog is a banning offense. As is 'clicking the football' (the user profile) on a banned poster. As if Charles doesn't want people to be able to see the last posts of banned posters. His blog, he can ban for no reason at all, really, but it is a shame that was once a vibrant place for debate of the issues, with updates on the dangers of Islamofacism is now a blog with more posts on why would be allies are actually the enemy, with a newly installed rating system to further enforce the group think/echo chamber, blog enforcers searching other blogs for signs of disloyalty, and sock puppets permitted as long as they agree with Johnson (ie, Sharmuta and Highrise).

This is the new war, and they appear more interested in members on their own side than the real enemy.

How much of Col. Hammes have you read?

I think you're overestimating the damage done by LGF. True 4GW requires handshaking, networking, political pressure, and propaganda. LGF has the propaganda part down, but given the nature of the internet, anyone propagandized can easily come to this site and verify whether what LGF is saying is true. Charles hasn't linked any(?) of the rebuttals to what he's said, but the nature of his tone and the comments on his site are off-putting to most people. Even when I considered them an ally, I found this to be true.

No 4GW involves much more than running a website, and the CVF is properly fighting it, as are the people here who decide to meet up, network, and work toward a common goal and craft the appropriate political messages. LGF doesn't understand that. If you're going to form a broad, diffuse network to fight a common threat, you can't possibly keep everyone undesirable out.

However, the slamming of gates goes on at lgf all day long, every day. Not a day goes by that there aren't sneering, smearing put downs and name calling about us at lgf. They are truly stuck on slander.

I'd offer that non-responses to his slander would work in your favor. You're fighting a PR war here. When one side refuses to engage someone else's slanders, it can often make the slander look very bad very quickly.

BTW, while it is true that many American Jews vote Democrat, long after Democrtas look after their own best interest, the same can be said (at least until recently) about Americans of Irish-Catholic ancestry, Americans of Italian-Catholic ancestry, African-Americans, etc.

Note also that most American Jews are Ashkenazi, from Europe, and many or most of the liberal Jews are 'Reform' Jews, with very liberal interpretations of Jewish law.

If one looks at Conservative and Orthodox Jews, one finds a much more mainstream political point of view.

Michael 'Weiner' Savage is a 60s hippy, and based on what he says on the radio, possibly a Buddhist or maybe some kind of New Age. Ethnically Jewish, yes, but not practicing.

For well thought out conservatism from a Jewish perspective, may I recommend http://www.jewishworldreview.com/

I am Roman Catholic myself, but as long as amoral or immoral people like Nancy Pelosi, Ted Kennedy and John Kerry can claim to be Catholic, I think its only fair not to get too hung up on Jewish liberals.

I'm glad to hear you don't like Nazis. But that's the whole point isn't it? Charles pointed out that Vlaams Belang and the Swedish Democrats have neo-Nazi roots and that it is not a good idea to embrace such groups. That's when the whole controversy erupted and suddenly Charles & LGF were being attacked personally, rather than deal with the problem that VB & SD have ties to neo-nazis. You seem to think Charles is the big problem, not the neo-nazis in VB and SD, and that is truly frightening.

And by the way, if you haven't noticed, I am deliberately refusing to find your Ed quote. You can find it yourself if you want to. Just as you can find the pictures of VB party leaders chumming it up with Nazis and white racists. Your disinterest in or denial of such connections speaks volumes.

"No 4GW involves much more than running a website, and the CVF is properly fighting it, as are the people here who decide to meet up, network, and work toward a common goal and craft the appropriate political messages. LGF doesn't understand that."

Happy Thanksgiving to all our readers. I have a huge amount to be thankful for today, but in keeping with the theme of the last few weeks, I’m especially grateful that I didn’t blindly sign on with an attempt by European white nationalists to take advantage of everything I’ve built at LGF, to advance their agenda.---

"Everything I’ve built at LGF"... To CJ the anti-Jihad movement was something built by him at LGF? Sites such as GoV are merely scraps from his great and grandiose table. How ungrateful haven't these little rats been? Fjordman is also just another spin-off from LGF.

"European white nationalists", whatever that is -- CJ is referring to the organized European anti-Jihad resistance -- mostly do not even know what LGF is, and do not care about it, and even less tried to take advantage of it. Their focus is in fighting Islamization -- something CJ would never understand.

"Everything he built" -- his whole house of cards -- is now falling apart, because this is bound to happen for a person driven by paranoia and megalomania.. Charles Johnson was never the great thing, Internet always was.

Check out this curve from Alexa.com. Since CJ started his purges he's been falling substantially. He's down to the level where he was in the beginning of 2003. And he's still falling. People who are fed up with him are right still at his site to watch his witch hunt (people are fascinated by looking at car wrecks), but soon they will go and he will drop even further.

Of course the method of Alexa is not reliable for ranking sites. But this curve means comparing apples to apples. And with such a immensely strong pattern, we can be sure that there's something. Look at the curve. I think we could call it the Shark Jump.

And just out of curiosity: Could the big spike up around August 2006 have anything to do with the Night of the Long Knifes?

Charles: "I see that a commenter at GoV is still insisting that Ed was banned for a comment he left at LGF -- that's simply not true. As I've said before, Ed was banned when I learned that he was copying and pasting my comments at gcp, so all the creepy stalkers could make fun of them. In other words, he was banned for being a two-faced backstabber."

I love GOV for the calm, civilised posts, for the quality of the comments, for the steady, principled opposition to tyranny of all shades.Which is why many commenters here and the Baron and Dymphna are on my "if I could invite anybody I wished to dinner..." list.Loudmouthed egotists aren't. There's no link to LGF on my blog.

I know you're deliberately refusing to find the Ed quote. That's cause it doesn't exist. Basically, your credibility is shot here, and pretty much anywhere else you post as Kenneth. Bet you won't run back to Charles with this post.

How does it feel to have credibility with no one, except the sheeple in the echo chamber called LGF?

Ever hear that old Usenet saying that if you want to derail an argument, call someone a nazi?

Well, VB and BPN and MIP and SOB and all the rest may all be nazis, but that doesn't stop you from being a lying piece of trash.

You can't prove your allegations, so you tell others to prove your point. With logic like that, mankind would have never got past the Middle Ages.

Think Mr. Johnson is handling this with some healthy humor and the sense to bike away from the cloud of this dustup. Thought I saw that virtue over at LGF the other day. It was refreshing.

It's that attitude that will save the Rubens in Brussels from the bonfires.

Had just posted a comment below under the Banned from LGF post. Wanted to include this article from Bruce Thornton over at VDH's Private Papers:

"How Freudian! Why mother Europe has forsaken America"

The Righist Parties cut their cord to their saving ship as much as the Left.

__________________________________

Over the past year I have benefited greatly from the alert Gates of Vienna has sounded regarding Europe. A sincere thanks.

And, Fjordman, are gems in many ways. But the lesson you are taking from America comes far too much from the losing side of her Civil War. The Union won for more reasons than the righteousness of ending slavery. America is very much a place; but it is such a rooted place because it refuses to be planted in 'blood and soil'. California, let's say, better examples her bright promise - no joke.

Said that below. Don't mind repeating. Take the proper lesson from America and it will become a powerful tool in fighting Islam's jihad.

Why is a Celtic cross necessarily a Nazi symbol? Has anyone considered the possibility that it could be a Christian symbol? Seems like I saw a lot of them in Ireland, many quite old, and I don't think the Nazis have a 1000 year presence in Ireland. I actually have one in the form of a brass door knocker that I brought back from Ireland, and I most certainly am no Nazi.

I'm glad to hear you don't like Nazis. But that's the whole point isn't it? Charles pointed out that Vlaams Belang and the Swedish Democrats have neo-Nazi roots and that it is not a good idea to embrace such groups.

Please read all the rebuttals.

"Everything I’ve built at LGF"... To CJ the anti-Jihad movement was something built by him at LGF? Sites such as GoV are merely scraps from his great and grandiose table. How ungrateful haven't these little rats been? Fjordman is also just another spin-off from LGF.

Yes, well putting together websites is not difficult. Building popularity for them is. At the end of the day, that requires keeping enough people interested in your site and keeping old readers. Support for a site can often leave as quickly as it came, and if support for your site is based on the cult of your personality, then you are definitely in jeopardy once people sour on you.

People didn't go to his site for analysis, they went because he had a lot of information on jihad. Once I figured out that jihadwatch had all of the same stuff + analysis and much more insightful comments below the articles, I seldom went to LGF. Robert Spencer is an infinitely more entertaining, insightful, and humorous personality than CJ.

CJ has definitely done well to set up JihadWatch and Pajamas Media though. He should try to keep his personality out of things in general, just from a business perspective. He has some pretty good ideas and seems to have a good knack for getting things started. He's identified himself so emotionally and strongly with his position right now that he could look very foolish depending on how things turn out in the future. His condemnations lacked nuance and qualifications, which is a bad sign.

Said that below. Don't mind repeating. Take the proper lesson from America and it will become a powerful tool in fighting Islam's jihad.

Stephen GolayCalifornia

I'm not sure which California you're talking about here. The dwindling part that's still America or the part that's increasingly Mexico. The future of the latter is pretty dim indeed, or you and I are reading different homocide, illegitimacy, and drop-out statistics. Heck, even VDH wrote a book called "Mexifornia." Let's hold off on any grandiose pronouncements on "blood and soil" until 10 years after the next illegal immigrant amnesty, shall we?

The Celtic Cross isn't definitely a Nazi symbol. But with the swastika banned in most of Europe, a new symbol was needed, and an unadorned cross in a circle, has become an known symbol of the Aryan/White Supremacist movement.

The European fan site for the Nazi girl group Prussian Blue features the cross in a circle, and the ADL web page (yes, I know the ADL leans pretty left, still)identified it as a symbol of the White Power movement long before Charles Johnson noted it on a bookshelf in anyone's living room.

By the way, storagemanager, be a little more truthful when you try to copy my words. I didn't say I didn't care about nazis. Go back up, read the quote, and then read the clarifying remark.

No, wait a minute. That might be too difficult for you. Here, let me do it for you:

First, I wrote this:

No one here is terribly interested in the nazi angle.

I noticed that Kenneth misunderstood. I was using perhaps a vernacular that he (and apparently YOU) didn't understand. I was referring to his post as a nazi angle, I wasn't referring to nazis themselves. OK, Mea culpa, I decided to assist him and make my remark clear:

Maybe I misspoke when I said no one here is terribly interested in the nazi angle. What that statement meant to be was that no one here is interested in your bleatings about nazis.

Maybe you can take this back to your incoherent postings at LGF and let people see what was really said.

Then again, I'm beating my head against a wall. You won't do it, cause you're gutless.

I have been having trouble posting from a twitchy dial-up connection...sorry so late on the response:

4GW is not what I am talking about. I mean the next step into the rainbow, which is a good place to start. Be sure to follow the many links and think about it.Then, you can see what these guys are up to now, on Dreaming 5GW. I have been field-testing their tactics in the local political arena, and it seems to work.

This is how I believe the bloggers will help fight this war, with or without approval of their respective governments.

It is all about perception, and the LGFers have moved beyond trying to find reality. I think they are actually involved in trying to shape reality to fit their view, which smells stalinistic to me.

I have been following the discussion for two years, and believe they are on to something.

Traditional Use/Origins The symbol for the Celts of ancient Ireland and Scotland; also used as a Christian symbol

Hate Group/Extremist Organization Neo-Nazis, White Supremacists

Extremist Meaning or Representation International white pride

Background/History This is one of the most popular symbols for neo-Nazis and white supremacists. First popularized by the Ku Klux Klan, the symbol was later adopted by the National Front in England and other racists such as Don Black on his Web site, Stormfront, and the racist band Skrewdriver to represent international "white pride." It is also known as Odin’s Cross. It is important to note that the Celtic Cross is used widely today in many mainstream and cultural contexts. No one should assume that a Celtic Cross, divorced from other trappings of extremism, automatically denotes use as a hate symbol.

Well, in defense of Tasty Beverage, the 910 Group/CVF and the organization of these entities was so elitist and arrogant that I hardly see how anyone could even stay with the program. It was quite clear early on that certain people would not be listened to and were not welcome, so any accusations of playing victim here are frankly laughable. Yes, just a small blog. Hardly. ROFL.

How many DID know about the conference in Brussels, and how many more would have come had they not been treated in an exclusionary manner by the "CVF"? Your army would be far larger if the focus was truly on fighting against the real enemy instead of shadowboxing with HTML and invoking the name "Tasty Beverage" as a source of words to actually discuss. As it is, this has just furthered the divide of partisanship amongst Americans and made those of us on the more-to-the-left side want to have nothing to do with such radicalization. And hell, what happened in the last 24 hours? I missed it, apparently. OK, time to get to work.

As for the "home-schoolers readership" here at GoV, are you guys for real? That one's almost as funny as the seriousness of the discussion of "Tasty Beverage". This Thanksgiving, I'm thankful for the laughs I've gotten from blogs, there are plenty.

Kenneth -- I was banned for disagreeing (in part) with Charles Johnson and my stated belief that neither Gates of Vienna nor Paul Belien were anti-Semitic.

Ironically I am somewhat sympathetic to Johnson's view that rightist parties are a cause for concern, it is my view (and this is likely what also got me banned) that not allowing political space for political expression of nationalist and populist desires of people in Europe leaves the political space for that to organizations like the BNP. That it was important to fight PC otherwise all discussion of important issues like culture and immigration are ceded by default to organizations like the BNP.

LGF is attempting to mirror IMHO the attributes and political power of Daily Kos. Which also gets a lot of traffic and has daily thoughts of Chairman Kos. Which also bans people for disagreeing with policy. Which attempts to influence political discourse (I assume this is the next step for LGF -- endorsed candidates). Certainly LGF has copied many technical aspects of Kos which as the Marxists would say is "no accident."

Larger question: are Tasty Beverage (and Charles Johnson and Markos Moulitsas) right on the issue that only centralization and top-down hierarchy will be important? I think not. Friendster, Napster perhaps now Facebook and MySpace show sites can be popular for a while and then lose interest and traffic. There are few barriers to entry to creating a site. People can leave a site if compelling content no longer draw them there. Even larger social networks can rapidly decline. Attempts to "direct" social networks and discussions seem to drive people away.

IMHO the danger Charles Johnson is blind to, is the ceding of political and cultural and most of all physical safety by elites who control European governments. In that I am with City Journal's "Theodore Dalyrymple" and that noted anti-Semite Mark Steyn. Britain will eventually fall to the BNP since they are the only party willing to stem the flood of immigrants (Jack Straw proposes to admit Turkey into the EU and in effect flood Britain with Turks) and crime (Dalyrymple notes the release on probation of a thug who blinded a 92-year old man by liberal PC judges). Even respectable middle class Ballerinas who have a son with a Chinese-Cuban man can be driven to the BNP. Steyn notes in Belgium that Morrocan born thugs were released for killing a bus driver who attempted to stop their harassment of passengers.

If the Government will not provide for security, privately formed "neighborhood" groups will, being self-organized. Middle class Europeans will depend on physical protection from thugs (mostly immigrants or descendants of immigrants) not from the government but offshoots of soccer clubs and the like. Whether Mr. Johnson approves of VB or the BNP is completely irrelevant -- people who cannot afford to emigrate to the US or Australia will do what they have to in order to survive. Many are "rooted" i.e. few languages or skills, property that cannot be sold, little money. Ownership of the streets by foreign ethnic gangs is a non-starter and people will respond to it in one way or another. THAT perhaps is the lesson for the US -- don't let PC-Multiculturalism degrade things so that we end up like Europeans.

This view likely puts me in the company of Col. Peters. It seems to be (at least in part) why I was banned. Shrug. It's Mr. Johnson's site and he's free to do as he likes. Ultimately I think Col Peters is correct, Europe's future will be decided by a series of street-fights and battles as it usually has precisely because a "nobility" oppresses the people and even a dangerous man in a white horse can be viewed favorably. That was Machiavelli's view also.

I have seen some posts in my time but the comments re: LGF's pre-eminence takes the biscuit . The sheer arrogance of those intellectual pygmies at LGF is sickening .What is the average I.Q. of posters and commenter's there ....about 50 .

Well well well. I leave home for a few hours and come back to discover that I've been smeared by Charles' tar brush by him intimating that I might be a white supremacist. What he's referring to is the night I decided to enter the fray in this Miniter thread, where I had posted a link to a noxious website (my post has been deleted) that carried an interview with Dewinter. I didn't know it was a noxious website until I saw Charles and another commenter discussing it in an LGF thread. That's why I posted this:

AngleofRepose : Note to Charles (since I see that you're reading the comments here),

I originally saw that interview with Filip Dewinter and the Jewish Weekly on Pamela's site. Unfortunately, the link she gave went straight to the site, and not the interview. So I did a search on their site, but nothing came up. Then I googled, and finally found that website "majority rights" with the interview on it. I posted it here w/out browsing the site.

Nov 8, 2007 06:43 PM

Dunno if Charles ever saw that, but now I'm glad I wrote that. Almost prescient of me, eh?

Charles, you're a scumbag smear-merchant. Oh, and one other thing - Baron didn't quote me, he simply said I reminded him of something. Get it right, smear-merchant.

I have seen some posts in my time but the comments re: LGF's pre-eminence takes the biscuit . The sheer arrogance of those intellectual pygmies at LGF is sickening .What is the average I.Q. of posters and commenter's there ....about 50 .

Lets not get carried away with hyperbole. Although I wouldn't be surprised if Highrise and its Siamese twin Sharmuta, Kenneth and Storagemanager didn't average in the high 70s or low 80s.

They have at least a couple of posters there I still respect. Geepers, for one. Carl in Jerusalem, even though we don't always agree on everything, Jammie Wearing Fool.

But it seems each passing week does see a slow decline in blog IQ over there.

Whatever the Celtic Cross means the Dewinter, I think it is bad judgment to have it and display it. Compare it with Baron B's attitude regarding the confederate flag (in a recent post). That's good judgment.

But nevertheless, one tiny swallow doesn't make it into springtime for Hitler. This is simply ridiculous. Especially when you consider what VB stands for in their policy (pro-Israel etc.). Things are instead developing decisively in the very opposite direction in Europe. I have written about it in my blog: Part 1: Counterjihadism changing the European political map.

My impression of Dewinter is that he comes from the old school of European anti-establishment nationalism. He's clearly not an anti-Semite, but he's still got at least a nostalgic toe into the past. I'm merely speculating, but considering the difficult circumstances this is less than ideal. The general trend of what's happening in Europe is very clear though (see my article linked above).

Nevertheless, the whole thing has to be seen in a reasonable perspective. The comparison I just made with the confederate flag in the other thread applies here again. The confederate flag and the Celtic cross are both symbols used by the KKK.

>>I could easily paint the picture of a massive surge, in America, in favour of reinstituting slavery, by showing photos of the confederate flag on public buildings, embedded in state flags, in the homes of politicians, etc. And I could easily make Europeans, who know nothing about American history, join the witch hunt. Because there are so many people who want to buy certified goodness at no cost, and they way to do it is to denigrate and dehumanize others, i.e. by hurling "satanists!" after them.>>

I'm guessing from his total lack of ability to provide proof, that Kenneth has left. Probably still doesn't get it that he's lost his credibility. He lied, got caught, then tried to weasel out by telling me to go look it up for myself. Damn, these posers try it every time, and expect people to fall for it.

Kenneth, you can't admit you lied. That makes you lower in everybody's eyes. Not only are you a liar, but you're a gutless liar.

Ed, you seem to have done some research on the Celtic Cross - so in your opinion, when exactly do you think the CC was adopted as a symbol of 'White Power'? (As specific a time frame as you are able, please.) Also, would you say it was first adopted as such in the US or Europe?

Anyone else is welcome to answer, of course, especially if able to provide accurate references or links.

I am not convinced of anything. I will say, as Pam of Atlas Shrugs defends VB, and she is both Jewish and apparently quite intelligent, if VB is antisemitic, they hide it awfully well.

I remain officially undecided.

This thread wasn't about whether VB were Nazis or not, but whether Tasty Beverages assertion that the only measure of a blog is the site counter, which clearly makes Huffington Post and Daily KoS superior to LGF in every way.

So Dewinter has a cross on his book shelf. I have a Buddha on my fireplace mantle. But I am not a Buddhist.I also have many books on my bookshelves that if, someone zeroed in on them, might paint me as something I am not.And I must say, as far as the confederate flag goes, it does not mean the same thing to some as it does others.Unfortunately, You cannot go into the minds of people for niblets of offending beliefs or practice.Therefore, you have to rely on their actions. And I do not believe for one second that someone truly Nazi would openly associate with jews and bring on the wrath of other TRUE nazis. just my humble opinion

I can't find a time when the cross/circle ('Celtic Cross') became a WP symbol, but, after not having luck on web searches, visited the Stormfront site, and noted on the FAQ both a version of the cross/circle and a Ron Paul for President link.

BTW, does the VB platform have something about pardoning Nazi collaborators from the war or not? Did it have it at one time (or maybe the Vlaams Blok did), does it have it now, or is it just more liberal propaganda.

Not reading Flemish Dutch, or even NL Dutch, internet searches are not helpful.

Ed Mahmoud is, was, and has always been nothing but a gentlemen on LGF. In fact he was a long-time beloved member of the community until Charles went on his banning binge-o-rama.

Charles is becoming increasingly more intolerant of dissent, and is encouraging posters to spy on each other, lest they break the loyalty oath of LGF. The ratings system is one of his newest enforcement tools. The Trio of Henchwenches are constantly on the prowl for those that might stray off the approved path.

Dissenting opinions will be ever more diminishing, as people come to recognize that if Ed can be dismissed by King Charles, so can they. Prepare for mediocrity. It's like drinking Bud Lite.

[quote]Dissenting opinions will be ever more diminishing, as people come to recognize that if Ed can be dismissed by King Charles, so can they. Prepare for mediocrity. It's like drinking Bud Lite.[/quote]

cowboy annie, LGF fell into mediocrity a long time ago. It is all now mostly one-liners, unless someone is posting a quote from somewhere else. There is very little expertise and mostly high-fives for Charles.

Not impressed. Sounds more like some egotripping lunatic with fascist totalitarian tendencies.

'Main-stream?' The echo-chamber of Charles Johnson is anything but mainstream, the Muslims and their multiculti-diversity bootlickers in the West regularly depict LGF as a 'Nazi/far-right-extremist/xenophobic/Islamophobic/racist" site, who can take them seriously after this?

We need to ally ourselves with those who are actually willing to do something about the Islamization of our countries rather than waste time with cyber warriors who are more interested to destroy the fledgling counter jihad movement in its infancy.

This 'holier than thou' crap doesn't cut it. We were fighting Nazi's 60-70 years ago, and we destroyed them. The Nazi's lasted what? 14-15 years? The ummah Islamiyah is trying to conquer us since 1400 years, that's what matters. Everything else is smoke and mirrors.

Yes. There is a serious lack of expertise on LGF. For instance, many of the military posters were either banned or have left, and there are no longer any threads on military tactics or weaponry.

It is embarassing when some subjects come up and no one has anything approaching actual knowledge to contribute. Most 'opinions' consists of Google links. There are a few good exceptions, some scholarly people still post there, but one has to hunt harder for them now. A lot of LGF is just amusing one-liners, praises for Charles, and intimidation by the Gang of Three.

I personally think Charles made the wrong bet in copying Daily Kos. Free Men are not obliged to kowtow, grovel, or otherwise perform obeisance to "superiors" and while that kind of behavior is appealing to status-obsessed Left such as Kos, it tends to turn off the much older, independent, and status-careless readers who make up the right side of the blogosphere.

As a free man for example, I don't feel the need to "submit" to the opinion of any other man (or woman) or otherwise change my views because someone tells me to. I strongly suspect that most people feel the same way.

I propose that we ignore Charles Johnson. I know that is hard when the reputations of the fine people who run this blog and Brussels Journal are continually being dragged through the mud, but there's really nothing to be gained from trading barbs back and forth.

What I think most people are missing throughout this episode is that we are witnessing a very natural separation between post-9/11 conservative thought and pre-existing conservative thought. I admit I may be over-simplifying this, so feel free to disagree if you like.

Charles is a self-admitted "post-9/11 conservative." However, the baggage that comes along with that are the leftist-defined terms of "racist," "Nazi," etc. that the leftists of any national origin use against their ideological opponents. I think this blog, the Brussels Journal, and Center for Vigilant Freedom have done a superb job answering all of Charles "concerns," which have turned out to be a thinly-veiled attempt to subvert and purge the counter-jihad efforts of those with whom he disagrees.

One could write volumes over how "racist" the Founding Fathers of America were, using their own written words. Thomas Jefferson, one of my personal Big Three (Benjamin Franklin and George Washington being the others), is perfectly capable of speaking for himself. If Benjamin Franklin was terrified of unchecked Germanic immigration overwhelming the identity of the newly formed nation, and Thomas Jefferson is on record stating views that would curdle the blood of the good Reverend Al Sharpton, I guarantee their position on this issue would be with the Vlaams Belang on their immigration policy. And to those role models I attribute infinitely more respect than a jazz musician who extensively toured Europe in his youth.

Let Charles and his Lizard army fling their arrows. But when it comes down who to side with, and which foxhole to jump in, I'd damn well be happy in jump into one with Fjordman, Paul Belien, and Filip Dewinter. Not so much Sharmuta, Highrise, Mandymanner, Babbazee, or even Charles himself.

Full Disclosure: Sodra was willfully banned from LGF after a fiery exchange with Sharmuta over the vitriol he spewed at Fjordman. I went into it with my eyes open, my head strong, and belched fire at the fool to the point that Charles not only banned my account, but deleted all comments I had made that evening, even those unrelated to that exchange. And in retrospect, I am proud of that.

I applaud Gates of Vienna, and would hope that you can bring yourself to ignore the attacks of the increasingly irrelevant Charles Johnson and LGF contributors.

I remember why I posted that, an oil producing Cisco aged sandstone called 'The Swastika Sandstone' through the late 1930s, generally referred to as the Gunsight Sandstone after (it is sealed by the tight Gunsight Lime), and I found a well history from a neigboring county to wear my company has production that still used the term 'Swastika Sandstone'.

I think that might refer to Sharmuta, Highrise and NY Nana. But Sharmuta and Highrise seem to me to post too much in common, to close together in time, with too much common writing style, that I think it is a Siamese Twin or sockpuppet. Could add Tasty Beverage, who also searches blogs for any reference to Johnson so he can report it back.

Ed Mahmoud: "BTW, does the VB platform have something about pardoning Nazi collaborators from the war or not?"

Ed, my self-admitted American understanding of the situation is this: The Vlaams Belang is first and foremost a group that advocates Flemish independence. Flemish independence is a long-standing sentiment within Flanders. When Hitler came to power, the Flemish nationalists at that time saw it as an opportunity to finally achieve their goal of independence. That is an understandable reaction as the true horrors of Hitler's ambition wasn't even known to American intelligence services until well after this decision would have been made. It's well-documented that the first reports of the Holocaust horrors, generally debunked as propaganda initially, did not come to light until 1943 at the earliest. It's also well-documented that Europe has a long and sordid history of Jewish ghettos, tracing back hundreds of years. So therefore, I can unfortunately imagine myself making the same decision given the information at the time.

I am far from a Nazi, and deplore what they did. However, if even ordinary German citizens were shocked at the extent of the Holocaust once it became apparent, I can't imagine the Belgian nationalists were any more informed.

What the Vlaams Belang advocates is not pardoning of Nazi war criminals. What the Vlaams Belang advocates is the removal of the political club to wield over the heads of those Flemish nationalists who sided with the Nazi regime in the interests of furthering Flemish independence. In the context of how America treated those officers of the Civil War who joined the Confederates, I would have to agree the Vlaams Belang's position on this is the right thing to do.

The Gang of Three I refer to is composed of Highrise, Sharmuta and NY Nana, They are the ones who mercilessly browbeat others who refuse to shriek every hour on the hour "I am not a crypto-fascist!".

There are others who align themselves with that position too, however these three henchwenches take delight in hounding other people to death, obsessively searching the internet for any other posts that LGF members might have made, and viciously demanding revenge and apologies. They are the Keepers of The Honor Of Charles. They make it their mission to destroy anyone who might say a contrary word to or about Charles.

The Celtic Cross is a beautiful religious symbol. It depicts the cross breaking the boundaries of the circle of "life", the circle that ever returns to the self same spot, and reaches out in all directions towards the infinite. Maybe GoV ought to put it on their template.

I post at LGF and don't want to get in the back-and-forth of who said what, when and why.

LGF is an important voice exposing the Jihadis and their agenda in America and elsewhere; GoV provides a voice exposing the Jihadis and their agenda in Europe and elsewhere.

As far as comments at sites go, I don't think I would want to be guilty of the same charge leveled against those who comment at LGF: that of ad hominem attacks.

I think this is an unfortunate rift. It splits the yet-too-small band of people who recognizes this coming, growing danger. However, that is not what I wanted to comment about.

I want to state that I do think that a European living in Europe will have a different perspective than an American on this issue.

In the USA, we're not surrounded by a foreign population living in our midst that is hostile to our way of life.

I believe that that situation would concentrate the mind wonderfully. I also believe, sadly, that parts of Europe are headed for massive civil disturbances, if not outright civil war, in the not-so-far-off future.

Either that, or large parts of the continent will live under a very different system than the one to which Europeans have grown accustomed.

If Europeans do not take action immediately, then the action they will be taking later will be of a far more military type.

They could start by stopping the flood of immigrants hostile to the Western Civilization to which they are moving.

Only after that important political step is taken--and it will have to be taken under a constant stream of abuse by multiculturialists and European political elites--will they then be able to turn to the task of trying to assimilate the large, growing, alien populations they've imported as cheap labor.

The subject of those immigrants being used as a crutch by the European social welfare systems to maintain benefits for an aging native population is another matter all together.

I also think that there are and will be unsavory elements which will ally themselves with any Europeans who do move to correct the slide into dhimmitude.

It is impossible to limit who joins into any cause.

It is not impossible to limit the voice and power of those fringe elements.

It would also be wise to prepare for the second struggle Europeans will have to undertake: that of whose voice speaks for the native population, if victorious, in their first struggle.

Reasonable European voices can be found now; they will be much harder to find the longer this problem festers.

Those who are not prepared to fight two struggles may as well pack it in right now.

If reasonable Europeans lose either one of those upcoming battles, they will live in servitude.

In the coming darkness, it would be wise for everyone concerned to carry a flashlight.

I first joined LGF in 2002. I found it during the post-9/11 blog explosion. I've posted under several nics. But I haven't posted anything lately -- the comment sections have devolved into not much more than chat rooms.

In the early days, the LGF comments section was an informative discussion forum. Posters would bring in links to support arguments, amplify the current topic, etc. On a really good thread, you could examine several aspects of an issue just by following all the added links. I learned a lot in those days.

But those days are long gone. Somewhere, sometime, LGF went "mainstream" and attracted an entirely different crowd. One by one, those early fellow posters dropped off and were replaced by what appears to be (and I hate to say this) a variant of immature Kos-kids. All they do is drop one-line snarky comments. Very few informative links anymore. An echo chamber.

As a result, I've stopped reading LGF regularly anymore. I long ago got the picture about Islamic supremacism. The only reason the check the LGF main page is to verify that, yes indeed, Islamicist buffoonery still proceeds apace. And I now only do that about once a week.

I'm sorry to read that Charles is banning people who don't agree with him. it sounds like he's now less into hosting debate, more into managing the debate.

MONDOREB: LGF is an important voice exposing the Jihadis and their agenda in America and elsewhere; GoV provides a voice exposing the Jihadis and their agenda in Europe and elsewhere.

Mondo, I would agree that LGF was an important voice in exposing Islamist activity. That is why I initially joined the site, and enjoyed the company there. However, let us not forget that Charles Johnson himself decided to launch this attack against the Vlaams Belang, and when debunked chose to sully the names of Paul Belien, a former Wall Street Journal columnist, along with anyone who opposed his viewpoint.

Charles has jumped the shark.

The information he posts is readily available at Jihadwatch. Anymore, it's Anti-Jihad for Dummies. I will leave it up to you to come up with your own visuals.

Lex wrote: "Well, in defense of Tasty Beverage, the 910 Group/CVF and the organization of these entities was so elitist and arrogant that I hardly see how anyone could even stay with the program. It was quite clear early on that certain people would not be listened to and were not welcome, so any accusations of playing victim here are frankly laughable."

I have no knowledge what it was about that made you feel sidestepped, but I get the feeling that it probably was an issue about you wanting to exclude a range of other people. As a newcomer in CVF I must say that I find the kindness and openness of the organization one of the remarkable things. Just compare the very kind tone used by Christine at the CVF website, compared to the tone you are using yourself here.

Lex wrote: "How many DID know about the conference in Brussels, and how many more would have come had they not been treated in an exclusionary manner by the "CVF"?"

You completely disregard the very seriousness of the security issue here. People have already been killed, many live under death threats. We always have to watch out for the ultra-violent leftist stormtroopers (and the Jihadis of course). Our Danish friends were almost killed in a demo just after the conference. An all-out advertisement for the conference was simply not possible. How serious about anti-Jihad are you really? Don't you even know about these things?

Lex wrote: "Your army would be far larger if the focus was truly on fighting against the real enemy instead of shadowboxing with HTML and invoking the name "Tasty Beverage" as a source of words to actually discuss."

The people at the conference are precisely those who are not merely shadowboxing with HTML, such as Charles Johnson, and I assume yourself. Look at the pictures from the link above, from the demo of our Danish friends. Or did you hear about the 9/11 demo in Brussels? Of course LGF never reported about any of these things, for some reason...

Lex wrote; "As it is, this has just furthered the divide of partisanship amongst Americans and made those of us on the more-to-the-left side want to have nothing to do with such radicalization."

Yourself you want CVF to subtract, while you at the same are accusing them of dividing. But this wedge among Americans is a good an necessary one. A whole stream of people leaving the mini-Napoleon at LGF. And more and more Americans seeing clearly that the main battle ground against Islam is not in Iraq but in Europe. All of this is good, and means adding to the real non-HTML anti-Jihad resistance. Currently we are at addition, the next step is multiplication. We are growing bigger by the minute.

Ed,How about this "strong clue": My maternal great grandfather from Kentucky had two slaves that helped him work his farm until 1864. I therefore have "racist roots" and should be banned from participating in Libertarian Party conventions? What utter bulls**t.

"I see that a commenter at GoV is still insisting that Ed was banned for a comment he left at LGF -- that's simply not true. As I've said before, Ed was banned when I learned that he was copying and pasting my comments at gcp, so all the creepy stalkers could make fun of them. In other words, he was banned for being a two-faced backstabber."

What King Charles is telling us in this comment is that his posting rules, which are clearly displayed at his blog, are very much incomplete.

Tasty Beverage's comment also reveals what is expected of one who belongs to the LGF community.

If he were to honestly and completely state his posting rules he would add the following:

1. By accepting an account at this blog, Little Green Footballs, you hereby agree that all comments posted under your nic whether at this blog or any other, shall always in agreement with me, Charles Magic Johnson. Do not express an opinion different from that of me, the owner of LGF, (or, in absence of the owner, the opinions of Lieutenants Sharmuta Kilgore Trout, or NY Nana.

2. By act of accepting this account, you hereby agree to an oath of loyalty and fidelity to me, Charles Johnson. In keeping to that oath you agree to express no negative opinions about Charles Johnson. If you have something to say about Charles Johnson, it must be always in a positive light and never critical. Backstabbing is particularly frowned upon and never make fun of Charles Johnson at this blog, or any other.

3. Your oath of loyalty to LGF does not end when you sign off your account. It shall be carried with you, wherever you may go. Remember, BIG BROTHER is always watching.

4. If you are unsure whether a comment you wish to post is in keeping with these rules, and which put your account at risk, no matter how much you believe that comment may assist in the LGF community's understanding the topic being discussed, it is recommended that you do NOT offer the comment. No warnings are provided. Violation of these terms may lead to immediate account closure.

5. These rules are important because LGF has a critical mission to complete. The world is in peril and distractions turn attention away our achieving our mission of saving the world from an evil enemy. We here at the LGF community are the only citizens that see the threat correctly and who have the tools needed to address that threat. Therefore, our full attention is needed. Opposing views and negative comments are prime distractions and will not be tolerated.

Hi there. I'm new to the site. I've seen it mentioned before, but not visited it untill after the "counter-jihad summit" controversy.

The problem with the cross on Dewinters shelf isn't that it's a Celtic Cross. The problem is that it's a particular style of Celtic Cross(looks more like an Odins/Solar Cross than a Celtic Cross, which is usually depicted with a long base, widening ends of the cross as well as artwork) that is most often used by white supremacists today. Granted, it isn't rockhard evidence, since it is also used by others, but it could be an indicator of certain preferences. Because of that it would be nice to hear/read Dewinters reasons for the cross. Ofcourse, without Dewinter himself commenting on the cross, it's all up in the air.

As for Kenneths rantings, I think he should take a breather and reflect a bit.Charles usually links Dewinter with Le Pen, whom he calls a fascist. However, a true expert on fascism, Roger Griffin, writes in his book "International Fascism" that neither Le Pen nor his party Front National are fascist.As for nazi pasts and what not... I guess we shouldn't work with republicans either, then. After all, isn't Ron Paul a republican? Didn't the republicans have a nazi run in some local election(I forget the details of the incident). And let's not forget the many nazis and collaborators from Eastern-Europe that were brought to the US, who, according to some, had a very big part in Ronald Reagan becoming president. Let's also not forget the allegations against the Bush family's relations with the nazis during the war. And let's especially not forget, probably of utmost importance for an "anti-jihad" movement, the many republicans who have relations to the saudi royal family(like the Bush') and saudi finances... Yeah, the Republicans definately have to be avoided in any "anti-jihad" struggle...

Charles is so busy and important that he has time to monitor the Internet for LGF-compliance and can indulge in posts like this:

"Over on Gates of Vienna, the racist blogger "Sheik yer'mami," who called Condoleezza Rice a "pickaninny" not once but twice at LGF (and was banned for that and other extremist ranting), has now appeared."

Yes, this was Charles posting and not a "lizardoid." Can you say, get a life?

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=28027#c0010

Then there is "Render" who posts that the noxious neo-Nazi website Stormfront has a commenter who mentions Fjordman and gets some positive reply comments. Never mind that there are dozens of posts on Stormfront that mention LGF! So does this make LGF a neo-Nazi website. By the reasoning of "Render," it would (except that nobody left at LGF seems capable of reason).

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=28027#c0015

Has it come to this, LGF?

Meanwhile, the Wahhabi-funded march toward implementation of sharia in the US and Europe moves on.

Mini-Napoleon wrote in his personal echo chamber:"Ed was banned when I learned that he was copying and pasting my comments at gcp, so all the creepy stalkers could make fun of them."

The funny thing with this is how Charles realizes how simply copy/pasting his comments at another site will make them laugh at it. If the comments leave his personal echo chamber, where he's in full control and can ban anyone laughing or accidentally sneezing, he knows (at least subconsciously) that they do not hold tight.

>>Charles is an intelligent man, so he has realized this problem too. He feels how his world is shrinking. Initially he saw himself as speaking for the whole anti-Jihad movement, confident that he spoke for the majority. Then he declared that he had never been on the "anti-jihad bandwagon", at least not the majority conservative one. Now he's appealing only to "US anti-jihad bloggers". Not US anti-Jihadists in general, just the bloggers -- of whom he probably still imagines himself as being the leader.>>

laller wrote: The problem with the cross on Dewinters shelf isn't that it's a Celtic Cross. The problem is that it's a particular style of Celtic Cross(looks more like an Odins/Solar Cross than a Celtic Cross, which is usually depicted with a long base, widening ends of the cross as well as artwork) that is most often used by white supremacists today. Granted, it isn't rockhard evidence, since it is also used by others, but it could be an indicator of certain preferences. Because of that it would be nice to hear/read Dewinters reasons for the cross. Ofcourse, without Dewinter himself commenting on the cross, it's all up in the air.

Unfortunately, laller, I disagree. If Charles and his minions choose to smear a legitimate political party for their leader's choice of a bookend, it's up to him and his minions to evidence proof of the follow-through. Evidence of the specific political positions would be helpful.

Prove how the policies are Nazi-esque.

As far as I can see, the Vlaams Belang represents Christian conservative values to a tee. (Oh sorry, religion and culture are out of bounds when King Charles the atheist will FAIL to understand)

Charles has been banning since the beginning of his blog. He has a history of banning anyone who is aesthetically unappealing or who runs afoul of established "lizardoids" (which could be as innocuous as asking what someone means by an opaque quip - e.g. displaying that one does not get the "in-joke"). It is his blog, and he can ban, if he wants. However, the price he pays is legitimacy. LGF is not longer a legitimate site of any kind. It is just Charles' boutique of vanity. LGF is irrelevant.

Laller wrote:Because of that it would be nice to hear/read Dewinters reasons for the cross. Ofcourse, without Dewinter himself commenting on the cross, it's all up in the air.

I completely agree, but during this controversy Dewinter has first been away travelling for 1½ weeks, and then when he got back home, he and his party has been all entagled in the most intense period of VB's/Belgium's history, about the legislative proposal to divide Belgium into two independent states.

I think a little patience, waiting for an answer from Dewinter, is appropriate, before drawing any conclusions.

BTW, Leonidas is using the wrong form of the letter sigma at the end of his nick. At least in Attic Greek, the Greek spoken in Athens a few hundred years BC, the letter sigma, when it appeared at the end of a word, looked much like the modern letter 's'.

What a thread.First of all, as a fiercely independent individual, I never once referred to myself as a reptile or reptilian minion when I posted at lgf.(I still refuse to use the l word) That term always annoyed me, but so many seemed to derive acceptance from using it, I never said anything, but now I can. I think the whole idea of being identified as some insect eating, cold-blooded reptile is absurd, childish, and shows a great need to be accepted by those that do.The comment by tasty beverage in this thread, will be worn as a badge of honor at lgf, I'm sure, and the smug, egotism it displays will not be commented on. As has been pointed out already, the number of visitors to a blog doesn't mean it is a good blog, only popular. Those that find comfort in chatting at lgf, are welcome to it. It means nothing to me. Any that think the egotistical owner there has a monopoly on accurate insights into the Global Hirabah, can live with that false perception, as well. When I was a regular there, it was driven mostly by intelligent exchanges, valuable links, and forthright discussion, along with some friendly chatting once a thread had diminished. As far as relevance, opinions will differ, but having not read a single post at lgf in almost two years(except for the one Fjordman sneaked in on me with a hyperlink), it certainly isn't relevant to me. In my world it doesn't even exist, when I start clicking around on the innernut for info.My name is no2liberals, and I approve this message.

I guess it is time to just ignore the silly-fest that is now LGF. It once had a role, and now it does not.

LGF is dead. Long live LGF. Or not...

LGF has become irrelevant. The Internet has a certain efficiency about it. The information LGF posts is no longer difficult to find as quickly or sooner on myriad other sites now. The comments have long been worthless.

The CJ (the counter-jihad, not the Charles Johnson) is too important.

If LGF wants to play a part in the CJ, that is great. If not, so be it.

The problem is, from my point of view, the difference between fact-based and emotion-based discourse. Those that are guided primarily by their feelings cannot be reasoned with, which frustrates the people that deal in facts rather than emotions. I imagine that the emotion-based people must be equally frustrated by people that do not "feel" their point of view.

Some of us needed to air this out a little, but all in all, it changes nothing.

I'm not so sure that that is true. It does show that people are not going to blithely shrug off being lied about and just skip away merrily into the flowers but instead reach for a baseball bat to bludgeon the liar. Posting the truth about what transpired does have a tendency to make the person that lied look extremely foolish. Sometimes a person just needs to make a stand*.

I see what you mean, Swampie.I just mean from the perspective of lgf as being relevant to the serious matters we face. It no longer represents a relevant source of info for me, and apparently many others, regardless of the protestations of the lgf owner and his defenders.

Indeed, what a thread. And we should remember here that we're at a blogger site, which means that it's completely open. Nobody could be banned. And there's no moderation unless a comment violates PG-13. So unlike LGF, the comments here are a reflection of the real world (that dark place where the midgets live) and a truly open debate.

A lizard won't survive long in a real world environment. They are highly trained domesticized animals that do well in their protected home environment. But never learn the skills or manners needed for an open debate. So they are staying away. And if they come, they leave rather soon, as we have seen.

The other factor is of course that few of them dare to make intelligent comments at other sites at all, since it is likely to make counter-CJ ban them at LGF (this is how we lose those lizards with debating skills and manners that after all still exist).

Regarding the comments section of GoV, it's actually a mystery to me how it has always been such a civilized place with such very high quality. I just didn't think that would be possible for a completely open comments section. I do not know the answer, but it has something to do with the Baron and Dymphna.

I can say that I was personally banned from LGF for disagreeing with Charles.

In fact, it was worse.

I first told him, privately and with concern, that this issue was affecting him at an emotional plane I had not previously observed, and that might be affecting his judgement. Failing to connect on that level, I told him publicaly, firmly, and politely, that I could be convinced of his position, but only based on evidence.

I never saw convincing evidence.

Yet for having the audacity to not jump on his purer than thou ideological bandwagon, I found myself first directly ridiculed and misquoted on several occasions by him, then banned, along with Fjordman.

I used to find wisdom at LGF, but alas, it's mostly small minds that are left there.

Note to the LFG posters visiting, consider if posters from here would be allowed the same courtesy.

I'm not terribly impressed with the snarkier posters from the LFG community. So far they remind me of a guy bringing a stick to a gunfight. I guess without the current LGF flapper clique to support them they don't have the horsepower.

I've not seen the great "mission" alluded to. What is this great mission of Johnson and his sycophants (yes sycophants, anytime a commenter uses the phrase "Charles said" that's the only description that fits) ? It comes down to "lead follow or get out of the way." What will it be neighbors? Also just what exactly does LFG bring to the table that makes them indispensable? The shiny wit of commentary flappers?

I admit to not having the expertise expressed by Johnson. I only spent about seven years in Europe. Half of that was spent worrying about how to kill the 17th Guards Combined Arms Army if they tried to make a go of it. The other years were spent doing things I won't discuss. As I mentioned in the past I'm not a great fan of Europe but would not see them fail (I did like the people of Bad Tolz, something about an old expression that translated to "kiss my #&$ I'm from Tolz" warmed me to them:)

I'm from the generation of LFG that is now posting at GCP. The current clique at LGF is a poor shadow of them, which is why I quit posting at LGF. I don't care for the current company over there. I don't bend the knee for no man and the only thing I have to do is die and pay taxes (and those are negotiable at times).

This should be about the creation of something, not personalities. I'll speak directly to you Johnson, since you're choir is about as useful as teats on a boar hog. You're exposing yourself Johnson, have some decorum. Zip up and grow up.

Charles "the inquisitor" just had a go at Jeppo. As a real inquisitor Charles knows the truth about Jeppo better than Jeppo himself.

Jeppo has been repeatedly attacked, smeared, and personally insulted in degrading language at LGF, but stood his ground. He never attacked or insulted anyone. But this was too much for Charles, he cannot tolerate even a single commenter declining to accept his opinion. So he feels the need to put his whole weight on top of Jeppo.

It's amazing what a complete a**hole will get away with if he's only putting himself at the front of an angry "anti-Nazi" mob. If he's the first throwing the stone at a perceived racist. Whatever happened to good Christian values?

Tammy Bruce wrote about this congressman that who was raping and abusing women he worked with, but nobody came out against him because he was pro-abortion. This is the same thing. The congressman in the book of Tammy Bruce however, for some reason, changed his position on abortion, and then suddenly all hell broke loose.

It's the same with Nazi connections in Europe. Due to our history, they are all over the place and found in every party. But as long as the party is in favour of cultural suicide by Islamization and mass immigration, nobody comes after them.

Yeah, I've been following that thread out of boredom. Looks like a couple of posters there wouldn't mind being banned but Charles is not obliging. Quite funny, but for the abuse that they are taking. "Jeppo" and "Blogagog" have had a poor black Friday. What's funny is the abuse that EtNorskTroll is taking. It is touching to see his naivete, that he thinks he can actually budge the brain-dead nincompoops there. Charles told him he has no show, but he's not giving up. Kudos for his principles, but not for failing to recognize that that lot over there are a lost cause. They are nuts, simple and plain. "Sorry Charley". Cc.

To EtNorskTroll (who is in the wars at LGF): Good fight, Norsk, now give it up. They won't reconcile, all that's left is to marginalize them. "If it were done when 'tis done, then 'twere well it were done quickly".

Here's some info in English about the Sweden Democrats. It's from their own website. What's so racist about it???

And, Baron and Dymphna you're doing a GREAT job!!!!

SWEDEN DEMOCRATSOther languages | 2005-04-27, 20:59 | Av sverigedemokraterna.se Presentation Sweden is a nation in decline. Once looked upon as the middle way between socialism and capitalism, the welfare state is now falling to pieces. Swedes pay the world's highest taxes, but receive little in return for their money. Our party, Sverigedemokraterna (sd), is the leading nationalist party in Sweden, and has since its foundation in 1988 received an ever-increasing voter support. The party received app. 3 % of the votes to the national assembly, 16 regional seats and 280 municipal seats in the general elections of September 2006. This was a result sufficient to make Sverigedemokraterna recognized as the by far the leading contestant for seats in the national assembly in next general elections in 2010.

Sverigedemokraterna is also active in the politics of the Church. The evangelical lutheran church of Sweden was separated from the state in 2000, after having had the king as its highest defender since the 16th century and almost every Swede a member from birth. Politicians promptly passed a law requiring the Church to be governed by democratically elected bodies. Sverigedemokraterna won 1,7% of the votes to the general assembly in September 2005, on a theologically conservative platform, thus being represented by 4 members in that body for the next 4 years.

We are nationalist democrats and dissociate ourselves from all forms of totalitarianism and racism. Our party have declared that we consider the UN universal declaration on human rights as fundamental for our politics. Today we have contact with other similar nationalist movements in Europe. SD is an organization with an active cadre of members. Activism and idealism are what the party values above all.

Sverigedemokraterna distributes leaflets and posts bills regularly in municipalities where our messages are well received. The decline of Swedish society has especially affected the traditional core social-democrat voters. Consequentially our best voting districts are in traditional working class areas. Recent legislation has made the Swedish population second class citizens in its own country, open to discrimination on behalf of newly arrived immigrants. The mismanagement of power by the established class of politicians will bring SD more close power.

Immigration, crime and globalization are all issues that affect every western country on the planet. We nationalists are all in the same boat, and should accordingly support one another as much as possible.

Ongoing expansionEarly on in 2002 Sverigedemokraterna won its first seat in Riksdagen. Sten Andersson, member of the Riksdag for Moderaterna since 1983, decided to join Sverigedemokraterna. Sten Andersson has for many years been known to be the only member of Riksdag who questions the immigration policies of the government.

Shortly thereafter renowned former mayor of Sjöbo, Sven-Olle Olsson, followed in Sten Anderssons tracks. Sven-Olle Olsson won national fame in the late eighties for calling a local referendum on the question of signing a contract with the national agency of immigration, providing for housing and social benefits for a number of third world immigrants. The contract was then rejected with a substantial margin by the voters.

As candidates for the general elections were presented in April and May, many candidates for Sverigedemokraterna turned out to be former activists for every one of the parties in the Riksdag. Also, for the very first time, Sverigedemokraterna put up candidates in all parts of Sweden, from Gällivare in Lappland to Ystad in Scania. In previous elections most SD activities had orbited around the Stockholm and Gothenburg metropolies and Scania.

From the day after the election in September 2002 party cadres is hard at work assisting in the formation of many new local branches. All newly elected party representatives in local councils are being educated in all political fields. Work is also done in the field of programme renewal. The party platform from 1999 is being replaced with a document containing the idea and vision of the party, and several action programmes for all the political areas.

Make life easier for small businesses and entrepreneurs!SD wants to secure the welfare system and reduce unemployment, but also to give incentives for a growth in economy. It is necessary to lower taxes, simplify the tax codes for small companies and reduce bureaucracy. Small business growth is the key to success in the future.

Sweden needs families!The family is the key component in a healthy society, and the children are our future. The state should encourage higher birth rates and help families e.g. by keeping a government subsidies for kindergartens and also by introducing corresponding support for families who choose to foster their children without the benefit of kindergarten. Measures to decrease abortion rates should be implemented.

Keep Sweden's independence!European cooperation is a good thing, but the establishment of a new European superstate is not. SD wants Sweden to counteract the attempts to dismantle the national states of Europe. Our vision is a Europe of sovereign nations. In addition to the European cooperation we want Sweden to strive for more Nordic and Baltic cooperation, and this should also include cooperation in the fields of defence and security policy.

Stop the development of the multicultural society! Swedish immigration policy can't be more lax than in neighbouring countries. Foreigners residing in Sweden will not be tolerated as public charges. A foreigner that can't support himself should return to his home country. In accordance with recommendations from UN:s High Commissioner on Refugees (UNHCR) the return of refugees should be the normal final solution to refugee problems. Foreigners sentenced for crime must be deported.

Law and order restored, and an effective penal system!Society is too lenient on crime. Prison terms must be longer and seen upon as punishment. We want to help the victims - not protect the criminals. The police should be given the tools they need to combat crime.

Defend Sweden!A dissuasive military defence must be maintained in order to keep peace. The whole country must be defended. Conscription is to be kept as the basis of national mobilisation. Emphasis on the role of volunteer defence associations.

Senior citizens need their own government minister!We want to introduce a minister for retirement affairs with his own department. Pensions must be raised - the people that built this country must be given a liveable income.

Protect the animals!Animals need not bear pain and fear within themselves. Painful animal tests which aim not to save human lives must be banned.

Protect the environment!We have inherited the earth from our forebears and we have it on loan from our children. Human activities that permanently harm the nature must end. Sverigedemokraterna is a political party with an ecological philosophy.

So, this Charles Johnson is now the "pope" of counter jihadism? Let me ask a question: who elected him?

Was he the first one? Hardly. I would assume the Vlaams Belang has been around longer. I know for a fact that the FPÖ here in Austria has picked up such themes long before LGF. FPÖ voters are a couple of tens of thousands, does that make them "mainstream"? Hardly.

I need US? really? The last US soldier left this country in 1955. So much for that.

To "Tasty Beverage", in case he/she/it is reading this: I don't need YOU! So Johnson was the first on the net with this (a claim that is extremely doubtful)? Big deal. it's just on the net, that means NAFT. I have to deal with this stuff in daily life, try that for a change.

As for the number of comments. That doesn't mean anything. I read Gate of Vienna daily, but I don't comment often. So what? Do I have to comment on every article? Every single post? What for?

Self-appointed leaders? And what is Charles Johnson? Who elected him? Care to tell me?

It's easy to comment from the sidelines, and, when it comes to European issues, the US are just that. So "Tasty Beverage", come to Sweden, Denmark, Germany or Austria and live here for a year, then talk.

I'm not on the side of "King Charles" in this debacle. I see too many similarities with the charges levelled against Vlaams Belang by Charles and the charges levelled against the Danish Peoples Party by "moralist" and "internationalist" Danes to be convinced of their legitimacy. I will however acknowledge that the cross on Dewinters shelf IS of the style most often used by white supremacists. As such, the cross COULD be an indication of white nationalist tendencies. I don't see why it's so problematic to admit that possibility. Admitting the possibility is not the same as agreeing that it absolute must be a white supremacist symbol(Just as having a copy of "Mein Kampf" doesn't make a nazi, having a copy of "The communist manifesto" doesn't make a communist and having a copy of "The anarchists cookbook" doesn't make an "anarchist". They can however be indicators of certain tendencies).Personally I'd like to know Dewinters reasons for having the cross, as the cross IS controversial. Ofcourse, if he doesn't respond to the charges of the cross, I'm not gonna burn him at the stake just for having it, as the cross isn't definitive proof, just circumstantial.

I also believe that much of the problem in this debacle is ignorance of European politics, history and current situation.It is insanely stupid to think that political parties like Vlaams Belang only have to deal with "anti-jihad", which is what Charles and others at LGF seem to think. They are POLITICAL PARTIES for gods sake, not grass roots movements...It is also insanely stupid to think, that these parties are "hitching a ride on the 'anti-jihad movement' to gain legitimacy". Let's face it, being 'anti-jihad' in Europe does not add to your legitimacy. In fact, it's quite the contrary.

Baron and Dymphna: this is my first comment although I have been reading GoV for some time and hit your tip jar once, I recall.

As a former reader at LGF ( but a sparse poster there) I was shocked to see that Ed Mahmood got banned. I enjoyed his weather reports even though the technical details were well beyond my understanding. I saw a critical comment against him grounded in him being OT for the serious discussions being engaged in here. A little tolerance for an idiosyncracy that relieves excessive gravitas suits me. Besides, I live in a tornado alley. Ed's alerts might do me some good.

Baron, your recent post about your family history was most interesting because it is similar to mine. My family migrated from Virginia to Georgia though.

Ed,Sorry about the distance between posts on this thread as they are coming thick and fast. My original comment was only meant to question the "roots" concept. If that concept prevailed the Democrats would be taintes as the party of slavery. No anger intended. I am aware that the polytonic Greek font is not the proper script (especially upper case) used in 3 century BC Laconia. The correct one is unavailable.

In answer to Kirk Parker, I get down to Spokane two or three times a year and to Seattle or Portland once or twice. Last time I was in Seattle was for a day touring the gun ranges with an NRA instructor. Last time I was on the coast was in July for a couple of days R&R at Long Beach, Washington on my Harley Roadster (XL1200R).

Grand Forks, BC is right on the border with the US. I can see you guys right out my window! :

conservative swedeThe nut-job you are inquiring about was known as American Infidel. /probably an alias

She had also started a stalker blog on one of the older posters. There had been a flame war between her and several older posters, and numerous emails and posts complaining about her bizarre behavior were ignored, which increased the criticism of the lgf owner for being asleep at the wheel or indifferent. It was those criticisms that made him angry and the massacre began.Why the blog owner failed to act on American Infidel, until it reached critical mass? Only the blog owner knows. I haven't been back since months before that happened, so I don't know if she is back under a different name or not.There was another demented poster called foreign devil, that was nearly as psychotic, and some believed she changed her nic.

I've seen the latest hate-mongering at LGF, and have made up my mind solid:

LGF has degenerated into a hate-site.

I think we should deal with it accordingly. Like remove it from our blogroll, I think we have a clear policy of not referring to hate-sites.

Personally, I'm sortof decoupling from the issue, unless I happen to come across some stupidity that needs to be countered. In that case, of course, I defend my friends with all the ammunition Christine has posted at CVF.

laller, I can confirm that the charges against Vlaams Belang are very similar to those threwn at Dansk Folkeparti, of which I am an active member.

They are equally false. We, as Vlaams Belang, have very friendly relations to Jews & Israel, in sharp contrast with what is usually termed the 'Left' wing in politics.

Hamas & Hezbollah are known to be fond of the Nazi heritage. We are staunchly against them. Still, we get charged with this libel.

I believe there's a hidden agenda in this 'accuse your opponents of evil' strategy. It's not meant to be truthful by any stretch of imagination. It is meant to make active political participation so unpleasent that good people simply give up and do something else.

I'm so used to it by now that it adds to my determination to keep working, and motivate others to join. We need active participation in society for democracy to thrive, not just a tick at the ballot-boxes every 4 years.

Long story about American Infidel (who came back after her banning as abc-mno-xyz, until it became obvious she was AI again, and I called her on it by asking about Chicago weather).

AI was a nutjob. It was easy enough, I suppose, to scroll past her repeated demands we deport all Muslims to the 'UMMAH' (always all caps). In a way, I wouldn't have a problem deporting any immigrants who don't toe the line, and I certainly favor stopping immigration from Islamic countries, or at least severely restrict it only to humanitarian cases), but I used to ask what she proposed to do about US born Muslims who were American citizens, and she favored deportation as well. Not in the US Constitution, deporting citizens for religious beliefs, even those as noxious as Islam tends to have. She seemed to favor camps for Muslims we couldn't deport, because of their US citizenship.

But she decided that a poster who goes by Reaganite, who was at the time a USAF explosive ordnance disposal tech, who was sometimes assigned to the US Secret Service, had claimed to be a USSS agent. She spent months demanding that he prove a negative (that he never claimed to be a USSS agent), and eventually started her own blog, 'American Infidel Thinks', to post about how certain LGF posters were liars.

Reaganite and friends rightly demanded she be banned, for the USSS thing, and increasingly shrill posts about deporting Muslims, building automated machine gun nests on the Rio Grande to kill anything (including children) that came across the border, etc. At some point, Reaganite said his adios to LGF, because Charles refused to ban AI, making statements about how all opinions were valued at LGF or something like it. (As a banned poster, I can't search for the threads anymore). Reaganite was gone a month or more before the final showdown when Rayra got very frank with Charles about why valued posters were being attacked by a grade A loon. When all was said and done, about 10 long time and valuable posters were gone, and for some reason Charles decided to also ban American Infidel, a move that would have done a lot more good half a year prior. As noted, Reaganite, who had left on his own, was banned, Sarah D was banned despite being nowhere near LGF, her husband was banned, I guess for being her husband.

Ed: "AI was a nutjob. It was easy enough, I suppose, to scroll past her repeated demands we deport all Muslims to the 'UMMAH'"

Well, this forces me to thoroughly reevaluate my view of counter-CJ. I always though of him as incredibly rigid, but this shows a great flexibility on Charles' side. Look here: last year you got banned from LGF for complaining about someone advocating deportation of Muslim, but this year instead you get immediately banned for the opposite thing, even for just bringing up the topic of deportation. Surely this shows that Charles' is a very flexible guy.

Henrik: "I believe there's a hidden agenda in this 'accuse your opponents of evil' strategy. It's not meant to be truthful by any stretch of imagination. It is meant to make active political participation so unpleasant that good people simply give up and do something else."

"Accusing your opponents of evil" is never meant to be reasoned debate or informative propositions. It's a sort of verbal violence. It's a hint to the accused that the lynch mob is now set out to get you (unless you immediately back off, and crawl in the dust with apologies). In today's society they come in the form of leftist stormtroopers with ironbars, always ready to beat you up into a bloody pulp. More and more often they literally try to kill you. Charles Johnson by intensively adapting this verbal violence has decided to join the choir of callers for these stormtroopers.

We find the same pattern within Islam. Here you go through the stages "racist!", then if you don't back of "Nazi!", then if you don't back off a crack skull by an ironbar. In Islam "kaffir!" (i.e. rebel of Allah) is the verbal violence signalling that if you don't back off you will face physical violence and ultimately death.

Given what side Charles' has taken in this, there is no wonder that felt zero empathy for the SIAD people in Denmark who got almost killed by leftist stormtroopers. Instead LGF described these people as far-right extremists (simply for the reason that they oppose Islamization!) and as if they deserved to be beaten up. And when pointed out by Fjordman how utterly unfair this description is. Charles immediately disavows Fjordman and subsequently ban him.

Check this LGF thread. First check the comments #198, #211, #270 and #297. Then comes:

Fjordman (#306): "I just pointed out that LGF links approvingly to a post which contains a twisted version of one of the most brutal attacks against anti-Jihadists I have seen in a long time. Frankly, I think it undermines the credibility of this website."

conservative swedeFlexible?Henh...you are a gentleman.One would think that the lgf owner would have gained a better insight into political affiliations in Europe, by now. Whereas in many European countries you may have upward of a dozen parties, which have to make deals to form a majority in Parliament, in the U.S. we have two major parties, with two marginal ones that can be ignored.I see the political atmosphere in Europe, as an American, as being so complex and unwieldy, that I often wonder if the Europeans understand how it all works.I do know, based on what I have seen and read, that it is the EU that is the greatest threat to Europeans and the West, than it is the boogey-men that others see. If the immigration policies of Europe aren't addressed, irrespective of ideological leanings, it may well be left to the more violent and totalitarian to save the day for Europe. Would the self-annointed leader of counter-jihad be as disapproving of those associations if armed revolt was needed, or would he rather see Europe become part of the Umma, rather than see some militant nationalists save Europe?I think he and others should take a breath, listen and learn from the Europeans that are engaged in this struggle on a daily basis, and voice legitimate concerns in a less damning voice.

Conservative Swede wrote:Surely this shows that Charles' is a very flexible guy.

Of course he is flexible, he is an opportunist, that jumps at whatever he feels will put himself in the best light and bring him fame and glory. This is why he jumped into the anti-islamic movement just after 9/11, this is why he skipped from being a liberal towards becoming a neocon. This is also why it is absolutely vital for him to have a tight grip on LGF and the members, as to be able to control whats going on on the site, and banning of those that doesn't fit in at any given time.

From the beginning he didn't have any principled stance, but took what seemed most expedient at the moment, when it was anti-jihad he was the “leader” of that gang, when it was disclosing MSN bias he was the leader of that movement, and now when he thinks it is most expedient to be in the front of the Counter-Jihad movement and others took the lead he must find some way to discredit them so that he can again be the leader of said movement. Only this time he ran into more resistance than at previous times and it seems like he might actually have miscalculated his strategy of coming out on top of this.

When looking back it isn't hard to see that CJ didn't have much to offer with LGF, other than digging at lot of stories from various places, and attaching a snarky one-liner to the story. And the comments have for a long timehad very little to do with the main story. And the only two major solo-stories for LGF was Rather-Gate, which was a genuine scoop as far as I know, and the other was the Reuters Fauxtography incident, which wasn't Charles doing, since he got it all served on a silver platter, and is only credited because he used the platform of LGF to distribute the story, with a minimal comment attached.

And now... Now he has stooped to a new low, again with mass bannings and the comment section of LGF is filled with vitriol and ad hominem attacks on all dissenters... Truly a Stalinist trait displayed.

So all in all I'm glad that this incident came about, as it has served to really open the eyes of several people about what is going on over at LGF... And blessed be that they have unmasked themselves for what they are, a narcissist and his echo chamber. An empty colossus with feet of wet mud. Not somebody who is trustworthy, staunch and respectable, but rather fickle, glib and untrustworthy. And uncovering this is a good thing.

Having debated white nationalists/supremacists on Stormfront, I can tell you that not all white nationalists/supremacists hate jews or believe in the jewish world conspiracy. Therefore, supporting Israel and being on friendly terms with Jews isn't necessarily proof that someone or a political party is not white nationalist/supremacist(it's pretty much the same situation as the cross on Dewinters shelf, just "reversed").

I actually voted DPP this election. Wether they will receive it again in the future depends not on the DPP but on the rest of the political establishment.Since I have been debating white nationalists/supremacists/nazis, black nationalists/supremacists, asian nationalists/supremacists and "brown" nationalists/supremacists(those who fight for "Aztlan") for the last couple of years, I have to say: it's easier to have a reasoned debate with a white nationalist/supremacist than with an "anti-DPP'er"...

I come to this site to read about counterjihad. I go to littlegreenfootballs to read about counterjihad. I'm opposed to Islamic expansionism which has been constantly propagandised by the multicultural elites as "natural and acceptable" and so just plain wrong to oppose. These divisions are sad and all, but pretty insignificant to me: they do not affect the actual, real-world organisation of opposition to Islamic expansionism, which the blogs only affect by creating awareness. Awareness is not affected by these divisions in any serious way, because the normal operations of the sites are all still there.

ed and sir henry morgan:

In Ancient Greece such as when Leonidas lived, they didn't write with the lowercase script which has the different medial and final forms of sigma -- they wrote purely in uppercase where this issue doesn't arise. The use of lowercase letters only came about in the 9th century AD.

And in the classical tradition from the adoption of lowercase to this day, though, it wouldn't matter if the original text was Doric or Attic, the final sigma would use the final form when lowercase, which Leonidas' username lacks.

""Accusing your opponents of evil" is never meant to be reasoned debate or informative propositions. It's a sort of verbal violence."

Yup. I've been feeling pretty beaten up from this LGF thing, even though I didn't get a physical scratch yet. It's exhausting.

"We find the same pattern within Islam."

Absolutely. And there's something here that converges:

It is all about dissuading ordinary people from participating actively in society, and politics in particular. Dissuading ordinary people from empowering themselves and getting involved in politics is essential for totalitarian systems. In such systems, all power must be somehow approved, paid or otherwise controlled by the system 'owner'.

One of the important tools being used these days is that of 'spiritual terrorism' - accusing people of being racists, nazis or other kinds of inhuman. Dehumanizing your opponent, a well-known totalitarian tool.

To do that in a decent society, you need a sufficiently Big Lie to scare those responsible, make them jump at shadows and take exactly the wrong action. Battling 'racism' and 'Islamophobia' are typical strawman battles.

Laller:"it's easier to have a reasoned debate with a white nationalist / supremacist than with an "anti-DPP'er"..."

Which is a problem in the same vein as above. DPP has been described as 'The only political political party in Denmark', because we take a keen interest in details and have a principled approach to things.

Our opponents, not least the new Naser Khader party Ny Alliance, have frequently quoted a main point of their agenda to keep us away from influence. That's stupid, and degrading to democracy, in that this approach points away from dealing with the actual issues.

One possible approach against the LGF smears would be to accurately identify the benefits Charles is expecting from his campaign. I see two:

One is defensive, to protect his status at LGF, something that requires him to come up with something sensational once in a while. That happens to be us this time.

One more offensive, the temptation of being the leader of the anti-Jihad movement. We saw a similar attitude on a small scale when Steven Gash walked out on the press conference after the SIOE demo on Sept. 11th, and now we see it on a larger scale.

Exposing what Charles stands to gain from his campaign might be useful.

I sincerely wish to see Charles back in the coorporative fold. But I think he's dug himself in too deep, and invested too much of his credibility for this to be a realistic option. For now, I'd delink him. Not as an act of revenge, merely because LGF no longer lives up to our standards.

Regarding the White Supremacy groups & relation to Jews, let me point out the difference between 'evidence' and 'proof'. Evidence is a piece of fact that points in a certain direction, but not certainty in itself. Proof is irrecoverable certainty about something.

Now, having genuinely friendly connections to Jewish circles is both :)

Since Nazism is inseparably linked to anti-Semitism, one can hardly have warm connections to Jews and be a Nazi (OK, I heard about Jewish Nazis. Crackpots exist). That in itself should be sufficient proof of not being a neo-Nazi.

WRT White Supremacy, I'd consider friendly relations to Israel to be evidence, not complete proof. But then, I know nothing about WS, having never really met any of that conviction.

This is late for this comment string: but hey, don't let that stop you from responding.

An afterthought to this LGF analysis session,

what in the world was all that 'Kilgore Trout Stinks' business. When I used to follow LGF I'd see 'Kilgore Trout' post something, and then you'd see some bizarre response from 'Kilgore Trout Stinks'. What a hoot and a laugh.

I can guess the context for such a situation developing... but what was up with that?