Hi, David. As my first post stated, it is not the videophiles who will care about the timing scenario in my opinion. I bought the first HD-DVD player and was pleasantly surprised. I then bought the first Samsung player and realized something was very very wrong. That did not deter me from getting the Sony player when it was released and the PS3. My comments were directed at the buying public. I can foresee the "Two formats - one works well - the other has some "glitches" - my buddy at work who has a really nice set-up tells me that that one costs half the price ..." conversation. He won't care about high-bit-rate AVC/VC-1. He will just want to watch Batman Begins in high def.

While I love both Blu-ray and HD DVD I have had NO trouble with any of my HD DVD players. Even my old XA-1 (while slow loading) has worked flawlessly since day one. Sadly, my Blu-ray player can not say the same. Sony's own firmware update broke my player. Now, to Sony's credit they took care of it and shipped me a new player, but still. I think firmware updates right out of the box are a complete joke. When I bought the PS3 I had to run a firmware update as soon as I turned it on the first time. Granted my PS3 is now BULLET PROOF when it comes to spinning Blu-ray discs, but a firmware update (that takes 20-35min) isn't my idea of good times when purchasing the latest kick ass gaming system.

I for one am tired of being an unsuspecting beta tester for products that are only half finished. Early adopter my ass, we're past that now. We're more than a year into the "war" and the stuff should work. To still release players (this goes for both camps) that don't play discs, or need updates to start, etc is unacceptable, and manufactuers wonder why some still sit on the fence as far as which format to buy.

THATS IT, THAT IS IT RIGHT THERE ANDREW!! POINT, SET, AND MATCH!!! And hopefully for all that is listening. I know, we are all entitlted to our opinions, but, as Andrew says, THE EARLY ADOPTER STAGE HAS PASSED!! And, while we are audio and videophiles, does that mean we should always be available for EVERY firmware update or tweak? I learned early on from reading the "early" Absolute Sound magazines, that you can buy stuff all day long to continue to tweak your gear. Thereby, NEVER REALLY getting to enjoy it. NO SIR!!! That is not what this hobby is about. Its about the love of music and video, provided with great equipment to reproduce it. PERIOD!!
Sure, the least SONY and TOSHIBA could do is provide an avenue to get an update, when THEY MESS UP. That is just good customer service. But, for us as audio/videophiles to expect this thing as regular, as DAVID Boulet says, is a little ridiculous. As Andrew stated, on October 30th when SPIDERMAN 3 is released to the masses, that after the excitement of buying the disc, sitting down with yourself, wife, son, daughter, or family and friends to now crack open this movie to play, and everyone waits a half hour before you can watch it, is considered acceptable??!!!
Something is greatly wrong here. And on top of this we expect more people to buy HD? Lets break it down, we are talking about just pushing play,,,, to watch a movie, HELLO!!

mgdurand1 is right as well. I know enough hard working non audio/videophiles that see the future. And want quality with simplicity. Not much to ask, really. They will ask my opinion, mull it over, make their buying purchase. We are talking about just going home and playing a movie. There should be a whole lot less amount of drama associated with that.

Some people seem to be trashing the Blu-ray Group for marketing a "false start" technology.

Yet, from DAY ONE, Blu-ray was introduced as a digital technology that would be upgraded over time (Profile 1, 1.1, 2, etc.) primarily because new chip sets still needed to be produced, to accommodate the new "advanced" features.

And several Studio Execs have understood the implications all along... which is the primary reason why they have held back most of their A titles... to NOT **** off millions of DVD-replacement consumers.

The bottom line is that:

1) Blu-ray needed to match HD-DVD's intro timeline, or be eliminated from contention.. so they entered with what was ready.

2) MOST of the BD early adopters are PS3 enthusiasts who mostly use their player for the games!

3) 95% of the potential "target" BD movie owners have not yet purchased a BD movie player, and will patiently wait until Profile 2.0 is perfected AND affordable (2008?)

I don`t know about that. According to our thread, 190,000 titles of transformers in HD DVD was sold. With a good percentage of the consumers going on line to enjoy that advantage with HD DVD.
I`m sure in that number, all are not high end folks. People with kids and families, who bought their HDTV from BB, or CC, or Costco, bought the inexpensive Toshiba player, and away we go.

All I`m saying David is, and you already know how I feel about these format wars, like Andrew, I`m tired of firmware updates, tweaks of any sort, stuff that is really uneccesary that hinders your enjoyment of your system. I`m not bashing Blu-Ray. These guys need to get their acts together. Maybe its me, but I`m not looking to come home and waste a half hour waiting to download an update. That sounds like fun to anyone??

I don`t know about that. According to our thread, 190,000 titles of transformers in HD DVD was sold. With a good percentage of the consumers going on line to enjoy that advantage with HD DVD.

And 8.3 MILLION DVDs !!

Based on those numbers, HD disc sales represent 3 % of the overall disc sales.

Quote:

All I`m saying David is, and you already know how I feel about these format wars, like Andrew, I`m tired of firmware updates, tweaks of any sort, stuff that is really uneccesary that hinders your enjoyment of your system. I`m not bashing Blu-Ray. These guys need to get their acts together.

And all I am saying is that Blu-ray DOES have their act together, compared to what to they originally claimed they would accomplish with this format.

It was never introduced as a DVD movie replacement... it was introduced as a "blue laser" technology with massive storage capacity that would EVENTUALLY provide the most advanced package of benefits.

As in:

BUYER BEWARE: This is a two-year development roll-out, NOT just a new technology for watching HD movies!

Based on those numbers, HD disc sales represent 3 % of the overall disc sales.

And all I am saying is that Blu-ray DOES have their act together, compared to what to they originally claimed they would accomplish with this format.

It was never introduced as a DVD movie replacement... it was introduced as a "blue laser" technology with massive storage capacity that would EVENTUALLY provide the most advanced package of benefits.

As in:

BUYER BEWARE: This is a two-year development roll-out, NOT just a new technology for watching HD movies!

DD

You may have a valid point.... of course, here in Europe we saw nothing of Blu-Ray until Oct 2006 Samsung launch....... soft launch, to be more accurate, followed by PS3 last April 2007, which I purchased.

because I don't follow the computer world, many of the Blu-Ray benefits,and benefits to come are not all known to me....

here in Europe PS3 has been pitched by SONY Centres themselves as a good,competent BD spinner. This they did because their own standalone players would not be available until the Fall of 2007 with their BD SE1 top of the US line player improved for Europe . Only now have they just released the low cost option BD300 model (UK Pounds 400/US$800). Pioneer have their same as US model out over here, as well as Panasonic and Samsung.

The quality now from some of the BD discs are indeed stunning.... notably from Fox, who first gave us MPEG4 codec discs with High Bitrate too.... and most things Sony studios are now also like that too... and if you olike foreign movies, try any of the BD discs from TARTAN Video, such as Paul Verhoeven's (remember him? Basic Instinct,etc) BLACK BOOK and Korean movie OLDBOY.... they are simply cinematically stunning on BD.....
Six months ago I got a Warner BD of Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang, and was disappointed with a lowbitrate MPEG presentation.... at times it seemed little different to the DVD....

Yes, they have maybe waited to release their best stuff, but let's also put this into perspective. HD DVD is equally improving too, and this Christmas, new makers of spinners are coming to town, such as the Chinese produced Venturer model, as well as others from ONKYO with some excellent specs.... What one format can do, the other can soon pretty-well match technologically.... eg. BD 50G discs, see also tripple layered HD DVD shown in Las Vegas last January 2007.... with 51,or was it 52G?

Out of couriosity, can anybody give me a truthful answer to which format in the US has actually sold the most discs, and which the most players? the latter question is difficult because you have to consider the games consoles from both sides.... I'm just trying to get a real grip on the US market.... reading various other sites leaves me no wiser or closer to the actual truth!!! Confused? maybe, but I bet there is no definitve answer that anyone stateside can answer with absolute accuracy...

That is why I have 2 formats, and maybe, i'm even thinking of getting ANOTHER PS3 which would come from the US (region A) because of the lack, or slow release of EURO discs..... some of which,as ALWAYS, will never hit our shores!!!! Same as DVD,and Laserdisc before it.... I recognize,therefore, that BOTH formats are with us for a lot longer than either side thought would be the case.... I FORESEE (Yes! The Chipmonk in his wisdom "forsees!") that Mass market will be acheived by DUAL-FORMAT players, when the quality of these improve, together with the mandatory significant drop in price, probably over the next 12-18 months.

Only then will the FILM LOVING public buy into this HD package with some confidence.... after all, they did HDD (hard disc drive)/DVD home recorders in the -R/+R/RW/DL/RAM format war.... where today most of those will play/record all or most of those formats....

But, software upgrades, from buying a product today and finding it needs to be done when you get it up and running with Spiderman 3,etc...????? This,to my mind, is not real world solutions, buying into works-in-progress that have to be upgraded with the purchase of almost every NEW release! It's crazy,NO??? (sorry, I sound Italian here!!)

Anyway, I accept your point about the history of the Blu-Ray rollout plan! But, Sony stores no doubt worldwide have been pushing Blu-Ray movies via their PS3 before standalone players, and at store level, they have always claimed how marvelous it was from the start!

London saying goodnight,it's nearly 0100 hours in London.... and still haven't got Clockwork Orange/Full Metal Jacket!!!! that's why I'm in the internrt cafe and not wathcing those films!