And I vaguely remember one of these vets here suggesting that I create an empty file in the folder just underneath the folder I don't want scanned.

So if you had files named 23492304293048.mpg in "/home/public/data/mythtv/tv_shows_1" and you don't want that showing up... you create a file called "tv_shows_1.folderlock" in the /home/public/data/mythtv folder. Of course this particular example I just modified the source so that folder is located elsewhere while still maintaining the automatic entry into the media list and using symbolic links in the public folder or private folder whichever way that recording was marked.

Trick is doing this directly after installation and before it starts scanning.

Another work around I had, is if the data in that unwanted folder needs to remain, but does not have to be in that folder, just move the folder.

and if that folder that is generated automatically by some process but can be deleted temporarily, then deleted the folder, invoke a updatemedia, then quickly create the file as described above before that directory is created again.

I'm sure there are a plethora of methods, and I could list more, but my linuxmce is extremely modified from source due to the lack of ease of use, stability, hardware support, and poor mechanisms for automated background processes so my suggestions may not be accurate.

I'm sure there are a plethora of methods, and I could list more, but my linuxmce is extremely modified from source due to the lack of ease of use, stability, hardware support, and poor mechanisms for automated background processes so my suggestions may not be accurate.

I can understand this, I have found that LMCE fights me all the way to working, and have also had to start modifying LMCE shell scripts. I know the developers are working hard but there are problems with the way LMCE works, and the announced 12 month release cycle will just generate more hardware compatibility issues.

I've given quite a bit of though to the problems I have encountered and why LMCE has been so hard to get working, and I feel that the root cause is that LMCE was written for a limited set of hardware platforms, configured in a certain way. Released into the big bad world the simplistic assumptions it makes about its environment mean that the attempts to be overly smart become a big fat pain in the you-know-what.

simplistic = characterized by extreme and often misleading simplicity

Examples, LMCE:- assumes that it can overwrite Mythtv settings at each reboot- assumes it can overwrite xorg.conf at each reboot- runs AVwizard and reconfigures when it feels like it- launches Mythtv for LiveTV and if a tuner is not available keeps trying to go back to LiveTV over and over and over again- assumes that any RAID device is a storage device- if / is RAID then UpdateMedia goes into an infinite loop- did not have an up to date kernel, so my TV tuners kept failing (USB disconnect, AMD northbridge- known and fixed problem)- did not have an up to date Linuxtv set of tuner drivers for DVB-T

Once you rely on an automatic system it has to be *perfect* in all its functions, otherwise a single problem gets magnified. I spent more time stopping LMCE from trashing my xorg.conf than I did getting my xorg.conf right (and much more time than I spent handcrafting a "single adapter-2 displays- one monitor- one TV" configuration for my previous Mythtv install).

The core architecture of LMCE is good (router, multiroom, IR command intercept etc), but the stuff around it which tries turn it into a consumer appliance is misplaced and a burden to hobbyists trying to get LMCE running on a variety of hardware and software configurations.

If you are lucky, LMCE would probably be a breeze to install. If everything runs smoothly it would be amazing. But get one problem and you have to be hacking shell scripts to stop infinite loops in your filesystem.

So, IMHO LMCE needs 2 modes: appliance mode (current version), and a hobbyist mode where once it has configured it just LEAVES EVERYTHING ALONE and does not try to reconfigure X, Mythtv etc.

And it needs an approach to increasing robustness- in this case defined as the ability to cope with differetn configurations of hardware, software, and configuration (e.g. cope with having LVM filesystems, or / on RAID).

FInally, to become a true hub for the home it needs to have at least some strategy for high availability. That is, if the core fails, there should be at least an easy manual way to reconfigure to get say an MD take on the core functions (esp the security, home automation parts and telephony as these are IMHO the "mission critical" functions, TV and audio are not). This might be done with say a NAS drive, or DRBD.

I also don't find the UI very usable for viewing my recorded TV programs. A huge flat list of files is ugly and unworkable no matter how slick you make the the flipping between pages and pages of files. I find myself going back to Mythtv and using it to browse my most recently recorded list, or browse to a series name to see the episodes- in LMCE I can't even tell which media entry is which episode, and if I select one to watch and it isn't the right one, it is back to the start of the list and start flipping again. And I don't think it is reasonable to force a user to "filter" a view just to easily get to an episode of a series.

If I didn't think LMCE was good I would not bother writing this (or contributing here or updating the WIKI), so please do not flame me. I also know that this is an open source project with people dedicating their time for free to make it work. But LMCE could do with some rethinking to make it installable, manageable, workable and supportable.

Right now, I would not recommend it to my computer and Linux savvy friends to use in their homes, as it is just too finicky and time consuming to get working. And it fights the user too much!

You both obviously have the wherewithal to modify small and large parts of the system to bend it to your will...

And you have the aggressiveness to talk about it at every turn, in every single forum post about HOW much LinuxMCE has inconvienienced you at every turn, and how you've had to make ALL THESE CHANGES....

yet....

you seem somewhat inconvienienced to:

(a) work with us? or(b) just send us the changes you made so we can look over em?

How selfish is that? They're going to go into the code base for the benefit of others.

Once you rely on an automatic system it has to be *perfect* in all its functions, otherwise a single problem gets magnified. I spent more time stopping LMCE from trashing my xorg.conf than I did getting my xorg.conf right (and much more time than I spent handcrafting a "single adapter-2 displays- one monitor- one TV" configuration for my previous Mythtv install).

that exit on line two took you so long?

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The core architecture of LMCE is good (router, multiroom, IR command intercept etc), but the stuff around it which tries turn it into a consumer appliance is misplaced and a burden to hobbyists trying to get LMCE running on a variety of hardware and software configurations.

I disagree. Even if the system is not yet perfect, computers are there to automate things. I don't want to manually setup all the stuff in my home. The way it works now is that the main contributors work towards having all their stuff full PnP.

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If you are lucky, LMCE would probably be a breeze to install. If everything runs smoothly it would be amazing. But get one problem and you have to be hacking shell scripts to stop infinite loops in your filesystem.

So, IMHO LMCE needs 2 modes: appliance mode (current version), and a hobbyist mode where once it has configured it just LEAVES EVERYTHING ALONE and does not try to reconfigure X, Mythtv etc.

i've been there, there are many ways to approach a goal, and the usual sysadmin prefers his own way. That usually collides with LMCE assumptions. So funny enough, skilled people have often more problems than "regular" users as they fight the system. This was the reason why I did not really jump onto pluto. It took some time for me to realize that LMCE gives much luxury when you let do "it" the stuff like it wants.

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And it needs an approach to increasing robustness- in this case defined as the ability to cope with differetn configurations of hardware, software, and configuration (e.g. cope with having LVM filesystems, or / on RAID).

we agree on that, but we need people to engineer this.

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FInally, to become a true hub for the home it needs to have at least some strategy for high availability. That is, if the core fails, there should be at least an easy manual way to reconfigure to get say an MD take on the core functions (esp the security, home automation parts and telephony as these are IMHO the "mission critical" functions, TV and audio are not). This might be done with say a NAS drive, or DRBD.

we had that high availability topic recently.

I call you for one thing. You said the system fights you so much. I'd love to see your approach on a manual installation of _all_ the stuff. Without automatics. To get the same functionality that can be achieved with well tested and known to work hardware/components where the PnP stuff works.Please write down the steps and track your time.

The patches I have made so far are "first aid" to get the system up and running. I've put my Xconfigure.sh changes into these forums, but this basically disables the code so it leaves my system in a running state. Further thought and work are required to create an architected and consistent approach to changes in LMCE to address the shortfalls in my previous post. Hence my suggestion of different "modes" for LMCE, the traditional appliance mode and a "hacker" or "hobbyist" mode that all scripts would pay attention to.

SO, how do you suggest we advance without discussing the limitations/shortfalls? Just start coding and hacking around? I don't think what I've done to my LMCE is good and supportable or even in general desirable, so I won't submit the "first aid" patches (though they are in the wiki for others to use if they hit the same problems).

Talking about deficiencies so that some basic stuff gets changed is also contributing, like it or not LMCE *has* deficiencies and areas which can be improved. It has been a battle to get it installed and up and running and stable. It has only been a week or 2 since I managed to get stable TV tuners, rebuild the kernel, reinstall new DVB-T drivers, recompile LIRC, and got the system to where I am FINALLY able to record TV programs!

AND I've been documenting this as I can here and in the WIKI, as much as I can in the time I have available.

The other thing which I did not say in my previous post is that a failing of the LMCE community is the "fighter pilot" mentality of coders who think that no there is no real contribution apart from coding- contributing to wikis, documentations, discussions, trying to help others are not "real" contributions. Well, a bunch of ace pilots without mechanics and refuelers and control tower crew won't get far. I suggest that the developers take a look at the attitude presented to non-coders. The cries of "code it or stop complaining" are not helping.

I've been involved in a number of projects, not coding and have made the contributions I can (Oztivo, Mythtv, Linuxtv). Most of this has been documenting and helping others, with a small amount of scripting.

There is a saying in Australian Rules Football "play the ball not the man".

So how about discussing the relevant points in my post, not just criticise the writer.

I don't want to try to install everything manually, I just don't want LMCE to be overly smart and make mistakes by making simplistic assumptions.

Look at the list of things that LMCE has done to my system to fight my efforts to get it running.

Can't it be made MORE robust and MORE automated by making the code more able to cope with, say. RAID-1 root filesystems?

Hence my suggestion of "modes", one for people trying to get it working so we turn off the "fight back" functions which reconfigure stuff under the covers all the time.

I will do the changes to the UpdateMedia code so it does not recurse, I have been looking at the scripts and tryign to understand the code, when I take some leave in Jan I will look at the code again (unless a house move intervenes). If you remember, I have previously asked for advice about whether to code changes to UpdateMedia or the script that actually does the creation of the sym links in /home/public/data/other (that must have been the single post I've made of my 100 so far which was not complaining about LMCE :-) )

I didn't get a reply except "RAID is not important" and "do it the LMCE way" (ie forget about system reliability)

The problem is that I need to understand how most of LMCE works before touching and breaking it. This takes time- and then agreement from other developers as to how to change things. Right now I don't understand the implications of the various appraoches I could take to make RAID work properly. So it is unreasonable to ask for code, and consider the lack of it as "not contributing".

PS I did try the "exit 0" trick with Xconfigure.sh, but on my system LMCE just kept going back to AVwizard (or failing in some other horrible way, I don't really remember except it did not work).PPS do you know how long it took to realise that LMCE was rewriting my xorg.conf without telling me or asking me? I didn't expect this at all. Easy to say "how long does it take to change 2 lines of code". Could say the same for most code changes. Finding out why the problem is happening generally takes the time.