In his many and vitriolic comments in response to my interview with him yesterday, Harry Hubbard (alias Horatio Rybnikar—and “alias” is his own term) made an interesting assertion about the literary evidence for pre-Columbian voyages by ancient Mediterranean peoples to America. I think it’s worth devoting a few paragraphs to this assertion, which I will discuss from the text of an online article Hubbard directed me and other readers to review for his “evidence.”

In describing the ancient warrants for assuming that Mediterranean peoples traveled to America, Hubbard first complains that fellow fringe writers such as Cyclone Covey are ignorant of classical sources, and he also asserts that classical scholars like Felix Jacoby, the compiler of the Fragments of the Greek Historians, are also ignorant of classical sources. He accuses Jacoby of poor scholarship in his commentaries on “secondhand” sources, apparently choosing to misunderstand the purpose of the Fragments, which was to collect references in classical sources to lost authors and their works. He prefers, instead, to work with classical sources in English translation, and he takes as his foundation for believing in trans-Atlantic crossings a passage by Diodorus, whom he asserts scholars call “THE Master of Mediterranean History.” Most scholars believe Diodorus to have been a largely uncritical compiler of others’ work, which is why his work is of such value for the material from older sources he preserved. Indeed, it is not much of an exaggeration to say that Diodorus’ primary value is precisely his preservation of lost works, either explicitly in quotation or through the underlying support they provide for his narrative. Anyway, Hubbard claims that Diodorus preserves an account of “Happyland,” his term for the lands where Cleopatra VII’s son Alexander Helios allegedly fled across the Atlantis. The passage comes at the start of Diodorus’ section on islands found beyond the Pillars of Heracles and was meant to represent, by Diodorus’ account, the first islands one discovers after leaving the Pillars. Hubbard uses the Loeb translation, but since I’ve already proofread and adapted G. Booth’s 1814 translation for my book of ancient texts used by fringe historians, I’ll use that translation of Library of History 5.19-20 here, but the Loeb edition is also online:

19. Since we have gone through the islands lying eastward, on this side within the pillars of Heracles, we shall now launch into the main ocean to those that lie beyond them; for over against Libya, lies a very great island in the vast ocean, of many days’ sail from Libya, westward. The soil here is very fruitful, a great part whereof is mountainous, but much likewise of level plains, which is the most sweet and pleasant part of all the rest; for it is watered with several navigable rivers, beautified with many gardens of pleasure, planted with divers sorts of trees, and abundance of orchards, interlaced with currents of sweet water. The towns are adorned with stately buildings, and banqueting-houses up and down, pleasantly situated in their gardens and orchards. And here they recreate themselves in summertime, as in places accommodated for pleasure and delight. The mountainous part of the country is clothed with many large woods, and all manner of fruit-trees; and for the greater delight and diversion of people in these mountains, they ever and anon open themselves into pleasant vales, watered with fountains and refreshing springs: and indeed the whole island abounds with springs of sweet water: whence the inhabitants not only reap pleasure and delight, but improve in health and strength of body. There you may have game enough in hunting all sorts of wild beasts, of which there is such plenty, that in their feasts there is nothing wanting either as to pomp or delight. The adjoining sea furnishes them plentifully with fish, for the ocean there naturally abounds with all sorts. The air and climate in this island is very mild and healthful, so that the trees bear fruit (and other things that are produced there are fresh and beautiful) most part of the year; so that this island (for the excellency of it in all respects) seems rather to be the residence of some of the gods than of men. 20. Anciently, by reason of its remote situation, it was altogether unknown, but afterwards discovered upon this occasion. The Phoenicians in ancient times undertook frequent voyages by sea, in way of traffic as merchants, so that they planted many colonies both in Africa and in these western parts of Europe. These merchants succeeding in their undertaking, and thereupon growing very rich, passed at length beyond the pillars of Heracles, into the sea called the ocean: and first they built a city called Gadeira (Cadiz), near to Heracles’ pillars, at the sea-side, in an isthmus in Europe, in which, among other things proper for the place, they built a stately temple to Heracles, and instituted splendid sacrifices to be offered to him after the rites and customs of the Phoenicians. This temple is in great veneration at this day, as well as in former ages; so that many of the Romans, famous and renowned both for their births and glorious actions, have made their vows to this god, and after success in their affairs, have faithfully performed them. The Phoenicians therefore, upon the account before related, having found out the coasts beyond the pillars, and sailing along by the shore of Africa, were on a sudden driven by a furious storm afar off into the main ocean; and after they had lain under this violent tempest for many days, they at length arrived at this island; and so, coming to the knowledge of the nature and pleasantness of this isle, they caused it to be known to everyone; and therefore the Tyrrhenians, when they were masters at sea, designed to send a colony thither; but the Carthaginians opposed them, both fearing lest most of their own citizens should be allured through the goodness of the island to settle there, and likewise intending to keep it as a place of refuge for themselves, in case of any sudden and unexpected blasts of fortune, which might tend to the utter ruin of their government: for, being then potent at sea, they doubted not but they could easily transport themselves and their families into that island unknown to the conquerors.

Rather than go into deep detail, just note that the very first words of the passage make plain that this island is located near “Libya,” the Greek term for Africa, and is only many days’ sail from the African coast—not weeks or months. It took Columbus two months to travel from Spain to the Americas, and in the 1700s, travel times were routinely longer than 50 days. But Diodorus is not the originator of this claim. He is merely adding legendary details to a story that was already about three centuries old. Our oldest surviving account comes from a text once believed to have been written by Aristotle but now thought to be by one of his students. The passage in question can be found in De mirabilis auscultationibus 84:

In the sea outside the Pillars of Hercules they say that an island was discovered by the Carthaginians, desolate, having wood of every kind, and navigable rivers, and admirable for its fruits besides, but distant several days’ voyage from them. But, when the Carthaginians often came to this island because of its fertility, and some even dwelt there, the magistrates of the Carthaginians gave notice that they would punish with death those who should sail to it, and destroyed all the inhabitants, lest they should spread a report about it, or a large number might gather together to the island in their time, get possession of the authority, and destroy the prosperity of the Carthaginians. (trans. Launcelot D. Dowdall)

Pseudo-Aristotle, if nothing else, places the island even closer to Carthage than Diodorus would. Hubbard, however, does not notice this and instead equates Diodorus’ and Pseudo-Aristotle’s Punic island with the Islands of the Blessed and the Fortunate Islands, from whose names he derives his rather déclassé “Happyland.” Hubbard then asserts that he is the first “modern” person to notice that Diodorus was describing North America: “Can you believe, after writing this over 2000 years ago, I would be the first contemporary to exploit it as obviously meaning the North American Continent[?] The historians have guessed every island in the Atlantic but never North America.” Francisco López de Gómara, the Spanish historian, made a very similar connection in chapter 220 of Historia general de las Indias (1552). There Gómara equated Pseudo-Aristotle’s island with Atlantis and identified both as portions of the Americas: “As well may it be, that Cuba or Haiti, or any other island of the Indies, should be those which the Carthaginians found and forbade their citizens to make any voyages thither or to inhabit the same as Aristotle and Theophrastus do rehearse where they write of the marvelous and unknown works of nature.” However, Gómara prefers to see the Punic island as a Caribbean island and Atlantis as North America, so technically he is not identifying the Carthaginian island with North America. But given that North America is many times the size of the largest island known to the ancients, it is similarly difficult for historians—Gómara included—to see how anyone could mistake a continent covering so much of the earth for a small island; hence, the wild claims that America was Atlantis. At any rate, Diodorus did not consider these to be the Fortunate Islands or the Islands of the Blessed (the former term is Hesiod’s and the latter Homer’s for the same place) since Diodorus discusses the Islands of the Blessed in the same book (5.82.2) as a name for some islands near Crete. But this doesn’t matter because Pliny the Elder, the other authority cited by Hubbard, asserts in his Natural History (6.37) that the Fortunate Isles are 250 miles from Mauretania (Morocco), on the authority of Sebosus, or 650 miles from the Purple Islands, on the authority of Juba II, the Numidian and Mauretanian king who reestablished control over the islands. The Iles Purpuraires (Purple Islands) were a known Phoenician settlement off the Moroccan coast. For those of you keeping track, North America is (a) not an island and (b) enormously farther than 650 miles from Morocco. We know from evidence provided by Pliny himself as well as Ptolemy (the geographer) and the Christian writer Arnobius (Adversus Nationes 6.5.2) that these were the Canary Islands. Pliny actually calls them Insulae Canariae. Pomponius Mela (3.102) also places these same Fortunate Islands directly off the “sandy part” of the African coast. Hubbard would like us to believe that Juba had discovered America, all while also serving as the most loyal client king of Rome and writing a universal geography and history. But the texts, as written, make plain that the authors were discussing known islands close to Africa and therefore not America. To make them America, one must first assert that parts of the texts are in error, which of course negates efforts to interpret them literally.

Correct me if i am wrong but did Columbus's three ships
have to deal with a time delay in terms of the Sargasso Sea
thusly slowing things down as a mutiny bordering on Bligh's
built up below deck? A better route could have seen a faster
trip, even so, cutting things down to less that 50 days became
possible after the design improvements of the Yankee Clippers
of the 1800s. There is only so much space on a sailing vessel
and fresh water is often a priority. Columbus gathered all the
accurate maps he could, and he came very close to failing in
a big way. The older vessels could have lucked into a favorable
transit, possibly, and many vessels had oars, but you must feed your crews and ensure they are not dehydrated. Admittedly the
Romans after the 3rd Punic War spent idle time guessing at the
trading routes that had allowed Carthage to pay off in ten years
the amount Rome had demanded after Hannibal's defeat at
Zama by Scipio Africanus. Tara Jordan is asking a logistics Q
and i feel its very fair to compare our Clippers of the 1800s to
Columbus's three vessels we learned about in grade school
to the magnificent fleets at Actium and any Viking longboats.
H.H thinks the Roman vessels did not need to hug coasts and
if the Canary Islands are always a needful stop just short of
the Pillars of Hercules, getting a link between them and Cuba
has this fanciful idea of H.H being more real. Lets be nice as
we assume the Canary Islands are a gateway. I think we are
rephrasing Plato's question from the Republic, namely was
there a global and/or Atlantic trading network to the West that
was there 9000 solar years before his time & did those very
ancient institutions have their echoes in subsequent eons?
Lets say there was a treasure that vanished out from under
the noses of Augustus's minions, this adds an interesting
aspect to what appears to be a very fictional & creative tale
loosely based on real people who lived during very B.C years...

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Thane

1/11/2014 07:07:34 am

HappyLand sounds as if it could be the Carnary Islands. These islands seem to have a history of being discovered, forgotten, discovered again, forgotten again, discovered.....and so on.

Here's some excerpts from the Wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canary_Islands)

The Canary Islands (English /kəˈnɛəri ˈaɪləndz/; Spanish: Islas Canarias [ˈizlas kaˈnaɾjas], locally: [ˈiɦlah kaˈnaɾjah]), also known as the Canaries (Spanish: Canarias), are a Spanish archipelago located just off the northwest coast of mainland Africa, 100 kilometres (62 miles) west of the border between Morocco and the Western Sahara. The Canaries are one of Spain's 17 autonomous communities and are among the outermost region of the European Union proper. The islands include (from largest to smallest): Tenerife, Fuerteventura, Gran Canaria, Lanzarote, La Palma, La Gomera, El Hierro, La Graciosa, Alegranza, Isla de Lobos, Montaña Clara, Roque del Este and Roque del Oeste.

...

According to the position of the islands with respect to the north-east trade winds, the climate can be mild and wet or very dry. Several native species form laurisilva forests.

As a consequence, the individual islands in the canary archipelago tend to have distinct microclimates. Those islands such as El Hierro, La Palma and La Gomera lying to the west of the archipelago have a climate which is influenced by the moist gulf stream. They are well vegetated even at low levels and have extensive tracts of sub-tropical laurisilva forest. As one travels east toward the African coast, the influence of the gulf stream diminishes, and the islands become increasingly arid. Fuerteventura and Lanzarote the islands which are closest to the African mainland are effectively desert or semi desert. Gran Canaria is known as a "continent in miniature" for its diverse landscapes like Maspalomas and Roque Nublo. In terms of its climate Tenerife is particularly interesting. The north of the island lies under the influence of the moist Atlantic winds and is well vegetated, while the south of the island around the tourist resorts of Playa de las Americas and Los Cristianos is arid. The island rises to almost 4000 m above sea level, and at altitude, in the cool relatively wet climate, forests of the endemic pine Pinus canariensis thrive. Many of the plant species in the Canary Islands, like the Canary Island pine and the dragon tree, Dracaena draco are endemic, as noted by Sabin Berthelot and Philip Barker Webb in their epic work, L'Histoire Naturelle des Îles Canaries (1835–50).

...

Ancient and pre-colonial times
Main article: Canary Islands in pre-colonial times

Before the arrival of the aborigines, the Canaries were inhabited by prehistoric animals; for example, the giant lizard (Gallotia goliath), or giant rats (Canariomys bravoi and Canariomys tamarani).[31]

The islands were visited by the Phoenicians, the Greeks, and the Carthaginians. According to the 1st century AD Roman author and philosopher Pliny the Elder, the archipelago was found to be uninhabited when visited by the Carthaginians under Hanno the Navigator, but that they saw ruins of great buildings.[32] This story may suggest that the islands were inhabited by other peoples prior to the Guanches. King Juba, Augustus's Numidian protégé, is credited with discovering the islands for the Western world. He dispatched a naval contingent to re-open the dye production facility at Mogador in what is now western Morocco in the early 1st century AD.[33] That same naval force was subsequently sent on an exploration of the Canary Islands, using Mogador as their mission base.

When the Europeans began to explore the islands, they encountered several indigenous populations living at a Neolithic level of technology. Although the history of the settlement of the Canary Islands is still unclear, linguistic and genetic analyses seem to indicate that at least some of these inhabitants shared a common origin with the Berbers of northern Africa.[34] The pre-colonial inhabitants came to be known collectively as the Guanches, although Guanches was originally the name for the indigenous inhabitants of Tenerife. From the 14th century onward, numerous visits were made by sailors from Majorca, Portugal and Genoa. Lancelotto Malocello settled on Lanzarote in 1312. The Majorcans established a mission with a bishop in the islands that lasted from 1350 to 1400.

....

And here are some info from the main article about the Canaries in pre-colonial times (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canary_Islands_in_pre-colonial_times)

The origins of the Canarian indigenous people – the Guanches – are still the subject of debate. Numerous theories have been put forward, achieving varying degrees of acceptance.

There is evidence to prove that various Mediterranean civilizations in antiquity knew of the islands' existence and established contact w

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Thane

1/11/2014 07:20:36 am

(continued)

There is evidence to prove that various Mediterranean civilizations in antiquity knew of the islands' existence and established contact with them. The islands were visited by the Phoenicians, the Greeks and the Carthaginians. According to Pliny the Elder, an expedition of Mauretanians sent by Juba II to the archipelago visited the islands, finding them to be uninhabited, but that there were ruins of great buildings.[1] When King Juba, the Roman protegee, dispatched a contingent to re-open the dye production facility at Mogador (historical name of Essaouira, Morocco) in the early 1st century,[2] Juba's naval force was subsequently sent on an exploration of the Canary Islands, using Mogador as their mission base.

The peak of Teide on Tenerife can be seen on clear days from the African coast. It is possible that the islands were among those visited by the Carthaginian captain Hanno the Navigator in his voyage of exploration along the African coast. The islands may have been visited by the Phoenicians seeking the precious red dye extracted from the orchil, if the Canaries represent The Purple Isles of legend or the Hesperides. Although there is no evidence that Romans established permanent settlements, in 1964 Roman amphorae were discovered in waters off Lanzarote. Discoveries made in the 1990s have demonstrated in more secure detail that the Romans traded with the indigenous inhabitants. Excavations of a settlement at El Bebedero on Lanzarote, made by a team under Pablo Atoche Peña of the University of Las Palmas de Gran Canaria and Juan Ángel Paz Peralta of the University of Zaragoza, yielded about a hundred Roman potsherds, nine pieces of metal and one piece of glass at the site, in strata dated between the 1st and 4th centuries. Analysis of the clay indicated origins in Campania, Hispania Baetica and the province of Africa (modern Tunisia).

*****

So, why think the ancient explorers went further West? Why can't the Canaries be the Islands beyond the Pillars of Hercules?

This question doesn't really pertain to where did Alexander Helios and his younger brother ended up. Given the fact that we do know what became of Cleopatra Selene it would be very unusual that we would have no notion of their where about IF they survived into adulthood.

The Romans were not very sentimental about the death of children in the sense that such deaths would've been recorded for posterity especially if one wanted to bury the memory of their parents. These two boys were not in line to inherit anything. They were not going to be the next emperors of Rome. While Octavian and Anthony's widow took in the orphans, it doesn't mean they weren't sensitive to the political baggage they carried. Cleopatra Selene, being of Egyptian royal birth and a ward of Augustus, was suitable to be used to create/solidify an alliance through marriage. Given the boy's parentage, had they become adults and made it to Roman maturity/adulthood, we would have some record of their doings but not if they perished as children/legal minors, in my opinion.

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J.A. Dickey

1/11/2014 07:10:57 am

even though this is off topic, SPIKE TV has Dean Cain's Bigfoot
series premiere episode up on its website. it reminds me of the
CW's "hunger games" tagteam hunter/prey series in its "look"
and production values. the 10 million dollar "bounty" is the most
expensive thing about this new & quite hopeful television show.

http://www.spike.com/shows/bigfoot-bounty ENJOY!!!

Reply

Mandalore

1/11/2014 10:31:59 am

These are my favorote kinds of posts. I like the detailed discussion of the ancient sources that is both thorough and clear. Plus, these tend not to get so crazy in the comments.

The only thing I would add is that, as I have said before, Mediterranean ships were not capable of long oceanic voyages. The Mediterranean is a very calm sea, which is more forgiving of ships. The Atlantic would tear all but the luckiest attempts by any ancient Mediterranean people to cross. A good book on ancient ships and sailing is Casson, Ships and Seamanship in the Ancient World.

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Only Me

1/11/2014 10:48:59 am

So, out of curiosity, not even warships like triremes would survive such a voyage...if they had reason to? I remember that people were surprised that Viking longships and Polynesian outrigger canoes could make such long voyages, until they examined the strength of the clinker design of the former and the stability of the latter.

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Mandalore

1/11/2014 11:05:54 am

Warships, like triremes, quinqueremes, etc., were very poor choices for oceanic voyages. They had very shallow keels, were top heavy, as well as being long and thin. Such ships were often sunk due to storms, such as in the First Punic War. Also, they had a couple of hundred rowers packed in there. Besides being susceptible to sinking, there is no way they could have carried sufficient supplies which is one reason they had to beach so often. Viking ships were better engineered in nearly every way towards oceanic travel, which was their intended purpose (as opposed to Mediterranean galleys). Mediterranean merchant vessels had similar limitations, but not to the same degree as warships.

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An Over-Educated Grunt

1/11/2014 12:46:36 pm

Thanks for summing that up so well. I'd have done the same in about twelve paragraphs, with digressions into wood type, the difficulty of transoceanic navigation on a square sail, the difficulty of outfitting an expedition of any size in total secrecy... you get the picture.

Anyway, one up-vote, from a guy who never ever up-votes.

J.A.D

4/4/2014 03:50:29 am

One of the posters up above
was clearly toying with the idea
of a hypothetical Carthaginian
ship or two doing an Atlantic
crossing, but didst not opine on
Brazil or the Equator, just Cuba.

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Young Black Man Trying to properly educate myself on the world

4/26/2017 03:33:55 pm

Hello, I honestly don't have anything knowledgeable to add to this discussion as I'm came here trying to learn and read on people's different views on common sources to achieve a close to accurate conclusion. Well I actually got here because I was reading a thread on ancient astronauts any way that's besides the point I was wondering if continental shift has been factored into the equation ? I read the comment referring to the ships of that time that they weren't capable of making such a trip so therefore it could be most likely hubbard referring to the Canary Islands. But what if there was closer distance in the lands due to some slight continental shift

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