I don't even complain about the slower ones like those of the valkyrie, kensei and raider. But look at the orochi's zone for example. or at the nobushi's zone. Why do they exist? Is there a reason why those attacks need to be as fast as they are? The Orochi's kit would work perfectly with out it. The PK is allready very fast so she doesn't really need one either. The warden kinda needs it because it's the only guaranteed move after a parry, but the nobushi again doesn't need a zone attack that is so fast, or does she? Am i missing something?

DrExtrem

04-14-2017, 01:21 PM

Cause minions.

Alchemist..

04-14-2017, 01:22 PM

Nobushi zone is easy. A would say thats her easiest attack to block and parry. Raiders za is unblockable, kensei za is 2 hits and can be feinted into something thats why they are slow

Hillbill79

04-14-2017, 01:27 PM

Useful for when you are being ganked too.

The warden has plenty you can do after a parry... if you're using a zone after a parry, you are doing it wrong. GB to side heavy, or shoulder bash mix up are the most used moves for warden

Manlorey

04-14-2017, 01:35 PM

Why do they exist? Is there a reason why those attacks need to be as fast as they are? The Orochi's kit would work perfectly with out it.
You never actually played an orochi, it seems. The only thing that makes him a mid tier char (not even an OP one) is his top light/za mixup, which can already be perfectly countered. Good players just block/parry the light and block the za because everything about it is expected. If you have trouble with it, there is just a simple solution for you which worked for many people before you, including myself - get better. It is easier to go a forum and cry for nerf, though, without even understanding the mechanics and pros and cons of other classes.

p00k.

04-14-2017, 01:43 PM

IThe Orochi's kit would work perfectly with out it ... Am i missing something?

yes, you are missing something. the zone attack is literally 50% of the orochi's viable kit. orochi has 2 useful moves. top light and zone. and the zone is actually pretty telegraphed if you watch the character rather than wait for the indicator.

Gray360UK

04-14-2017, 01:44 PM

So when you have an Order to kill 500 minions on your Orochi you'll be happy killing them 1 at a time with light attacks?

RatedChaotic

04-14-2017, 01:49 PM

So when you have an Order to kill 500 minions on your Orochi you'll be happy killing them 1 at a time with light attacks?

That would suck so bad.

kweassa1917

04-14-2017, 02:23 PM

Just normalize, or at least make similar the speeds of activation on ALL ZAs, and there we go. No more difficult-to-block, easy-peasy one-button 50/50 of "top or side? 50/50" granted to certain classes.

Like, the WardOchi hangs up a top-stance. ZA activated! Woops, sorry. No more insta-"Ahahahahaha it's not top-guard! My lighting quick side slash opens up your guy!" for you.

Gee, actually having to fight with slower activating, super-risky ZAs like ALL other classes have to manage?Gee will they ever manage!

Just normalize, or at least make similar the speeds of activation on ALL ZAs, and there we go. No more difficult-to-block, easy-peasy one-button 50/50 of "top or side? 50/50" granted to certain classes.

Like, the WardOchi hangs up a top-stance. ZA activated! Woops, sorry. No more insta-"Ahahahahaha it's not top-guard! My lighting quick side slash opens up your guy!" for you.

Gee, actually having to fight with slower activating, super-risky ZAs like ALL other classes have to manage?Gee will they ever manage!

AHAHAHAHAHAAAA

Ha... *ahem* sorry. Met a pretty skilled guy purposefully using only toplight-ZA 50/50 shi* on lesser players. Was disgusting to watch.
As always, here is an example of wildly suggesting changes which would be terribly one sided and game-breaking. The reason assassins are quick (Orochi is already slower on speed than PK and slower on attack speed and has no mind games like Berserk) are because they are so squishy, and when they fail or are successfully countered, they take big damage from heavy hitting classes (name any one - Kensei with dodge and feints, Conq with his vortex, Warden shoulder 50/50 mixup with ZA et cetera).

I have no trouble countering Orochis as long as their skill is on par with mine on Orochi, or, when I play Kensei, on him. And by countering I mean shutting down their only mixup, which is so OP in your eyes. And that's on console! What am I doing wrong?

kweassa1917

04-14-2017, 03:56 PM

As always, here is an example of wildly suggesting changes which would be terribly one sided and game-breaking. The reason assassins are quick (Orochi is already slower on speed than PK and slower on attack speed and has no mind games like Berserk) are because they are so squishy, and when they fail or are successfully countered, they take big damage from heavy hitting classes (name any one - Kensei with dodge and feints, Conq with his vortex, Warden shoulder 50/50 mixup with ZA et cetera).

Ah yes. Diddly merrily compare to how "inferior" you are to the game's most OP class, and a high-risk high-reward assassin.

Except the bare truth of the matter is no amount of "higher damage" or "higher HP" means diddly squat when an assassin simply evades EVERYTHING without risk of punishment with a simple "S + <space>" , is free to disengage at will most of the times, and basically overwhelms anyone by way of forcing the cheesy-as-heck light spam-ZA 50/50.

"Oh but that's the only safe attack we have!"

Try playing with a class with NO such thing as a 'safe' attack at all, no one-button 50/50s, slow attacks that gets stopped when an assassin just flashes the weapon at you, can't outdodge, can't outrun, can't outmaneuver due to slow speed.

How'z about they pull all the damage away from my Raider, hack off some HP, and basically gimme my unblockable ZA activating as fast a WarDochi ZA, and then have my dodge-light attack headbashing dazer activate as fast as your top lights with a guaranteed extra light attack?

Hey, when that happens now I'm basically as frail as you, so you won't mind the "daze or unblockable 50/50" would you? I mean, if you have no problems with the toplight-ZA 50/50 spam, you'll probably have no problems with my daze/unblockable 50/50.

I have no trouble countering Orochis as long as their skill is on par with mine on Orochi, or, when I play Kensei, on him. And by countering I mean shutting down their only mixup, which is so OP in your eyes. And that's on console! What am I doing wrong?

Simple. You've lost perspective.

Like, how'z about I defend my Raider's broken unlock-glitched unblockable ZA (which I consciously avoid using btw) and make excuses about how the Raider has a lot of problems, so it should stay? It's the "only" safe attack we have, safe from easy timed parries, long enough to catch certain dodge angles and such.

But of course, I cannot. Because whether my class "needs" it is a separate issue from whether its fair or balanced. Much the same, whether some high-end, skilled players who have a tendency to do incredible or inhuman shi* can exclusively counter it, is also a different story from whether a certain broken mechanic is adequately balanced and tweaked according to the majority of people.

I have no doubts if my Raider has a top-light daze as fast as WarDochis, and at the same time a quick-spam ZA that is unblockable, SOME people will still counter it. Like said, there are accutely toned and simply amazing players with unbelievable precision and reflexes out there. But that's hardly an excuse to defend something like that.

No. 50/50s aren't supposed to be one-button access like that.

A legit, game-enriching 50/50 is something you need to consciously set up with careful strategizing, for example maybe you force a block or some state which disables someone into a long recovery time, or slowly drive someone into a corner or carefully time GBs to push them into a wall, and then you set it up so the other guy's forced into a choice. Something that needs time and effort to set up. NOT JUST HAVE IT 50/50 IN YOUR FAVOR AT THE PUSH OF A BUTTON, OR BECAUSE A SKILLSET IS INHERENTLY BUILT THAT WAY LIKE THE WARDEN'S BUTT-TEX.

It's poor game design, to say the least.

SlashingElbow

04-14-2017, 03:58 PM

people need to stop sucking in this game and learn how to play it how it is. AND THEY NEED TO FIX THE DAMN CONNECTION ISSUES DAMNIT