Fogey, that is some great advice. Easy to see why you were successful.

How much do feel networking plays a role versus class rank and school? I mean, I assume the better the school, the better the opportunities to network. And the better your class rank, the more doors you'll open. But can someone at median at a T14 school network his way into a good job, or is that person toast at OCI? Like everyone else, I have confidence in my skills. But I'm realistic enough to acknowledge that not everyone can finish in the top third of his or her class.

YoungFogey wrote: I can go into more details about my strategy if people are interested.

Yes, please. It seems so far away now, but August will be here before I know it.

Ok. I was totally paranoid about OCI. I did not have a "power" resume and was concerned that being old (and a parent) was going to kill me. Here was my plan of attack:

1. Started networking 1L year by going to firm events and panels. I spoke with attorneys about their practice areas and about the business side of their firm (how was it structured, what did they like, what didn't they, what was the partnership track like, how was compensation decided, etc.). I asked a lot of "dumb" questions at this point. This kept me from asking/saying dumb things in interviews (for the most part).

2. Bid very strategically during OCI. I researched the hell out of firms beforehand -- I did not go by Vault rankings (though I did use the Vault guide for info), but instead looked for firms that had large practice groups in areas I thought I would be interested in. I also looked for indications that firms were "facetime" firms (something I did not want and knew I wouldn't be seen as a good fit for). I spoke to friends that were attorneys to get the inside scoop (you could also troll either your UG or LS alumni to do some of this).

3. Bid on multiple markets. I know some people say to concentrate bids, but I was getting feedback that some markets were getting hit harder and that there seemed to be a "type" for some markets -- I wanted to maximize my chances of not getting shut out.

4. Reached out before OCI to a smaller market that I had weak ties to. Cold contacted an alumn at one of the firms to talk about the legal market there. Sent letters indicating when I would be in town.

5. Hustled for extra interviews at OCI at hospitality suites. (Picked up several and got callbacks from all of them.)

6. Went to hospitality suites for all the firms I interviewed with and spoke with the attorneys staffing them (was able to talk about meeting someone back in 1L year at a panel -- it wasn't that I had developed a connection, but that I could demonstrate long-standing interest in the firm by giving that name).

7. Aggressively sold being "old" in my interviews. I had identified the red flags on my resume and generally sought to mitigate them in the interview before I was even asked about them. I sold myself as someone who had enough experience to know what I wanted (and didn't want), knew what working full-time was like, knew what it was like to be a client (not a legal client, but I was able to talk about it in a way that I could show an awareness of needing to keep client needs in mind even as a junior associate), knew what it was like to be a manager, knew what it was like to be a subordinate, etc. I was also (I think ) personable and enthusiastic (in a restrained way) in the interviews. I made sure going in that I knew how to talk about what experience I had gained in my 1L job. I tried to answer questions about myself in a way that would show what I could bring to the table that would be valuable to them.

8. Scheduled callbacks so that some of firms I was least excited about were first. I screwed up a couple of my first callbacks. I was glad they were with firms that were not as good of a fit for me. I took stock of what I did wrong, and how I could fix it.

I think that's about it

Read this carefully, 0Ls. There are plenty of guides to getting good grades, but this advice is excellent for securing employment.

I am 33, wife and kids. Don't really feel older, I blend in with my mid-20's grad school classmates just fine. Also facing the difficult decision of relocating. I am blessed to have Penn in my back yard, but also considering moving across the country to the bay area. Selling the house won't net me a loss, but the price is about $50k below what I expect, so I don't know if I would try to sell it. Renting isn't the best option as I would have to put all our stuff in storage until we know where we want to settle. Maybe I can rent to relatives for cheap, and sell it later. That way we have a place to stay temporarily when we come back for holidays. It's a tough decision, it's made even tougher now because we loved our visit to the bay area. I can totally see us living here...

It's going to be some interesting back and forth in the coming months. There are so much going for moving, and so much going for staying. Especially the 2 schools are tied in rankings

lolschool2011 wrote:Doesn't everyone in the world put the date you graduated from UG on your resume? I think it's pretty easy to deduce how old any applicant is... there's no sense in trying to hide what's so easily ascertainable.

I might have lucked out. I went back to UG when I was 31, and I look about 26 right now, so maybe I can get by as a "slightly older" applicant. Will have to trim some early jobs out of my resume lol

I'm in the same boat as well, 37 will be 38 if accepted aywhere. Married with 2 children 6 and 4. went through a structure change at the bank, so here I am. I'm really hoping my 15years of professional work experience will prevail. My numbers are low and it seems that everyone on this forum has GPA's and LSAT scores that above 3.5 and 165 and are scheduling themselves to take the test again. All I know is that Law schools would not require you to submit Personal Statements, LOR's, resume's etc, if they just looked at numbers. With that being said most of the schools i am looking at are PT's so it will be flexible with the family schedule, but my first choice in cincy which is only full time. I am looking at 2 in Chicago area because my wife is from there.

I got this nutty law school idea all of a sudden while fuming at my desk over something particularly ridiculous my interim supervisor had done, and was encouraged to really get into the application process by a 164 cold diagnostic LSAT. (If I'd gotten a 140 or something, the idea would have died right there.)

Initially I was just planning on the part-time program at Lewis & Clark while working full-time, hopefully with a hefty scholarship. I applied to 7 schools ranked from #6 to #64 (L&C), telling myself it was just idle curiosity (and fee waivers), and maybe I'd get some offers from higher-ranked schools to leverage more money out of L&C. Got into W&L and IU-Bloomy, all according to plan. Actually still waiting on L&C. (grrrrr)

And then...I got into Northwestern yesterday. It's the only other school on my list that tempts me at all, but I am having a total freakout pondering how to finance $73K/year COA in Chicago, plus a mortgage on my condo at home in Portland. (I could sell my condo at a mild loss, or rent it out, I guess.) Plus that whole 'moving away from my home state for the first time' thing, which frankly scares me. (I know, pathetic.)

Part-time law school on scholarship seemed like the ideal solution at first: I'd have a JD with little or nothing to pay back, plus I'd have my old job as insurance against not finding a legal job right away. Low risk/medium reward, right? And then NU comes along with its high risk/high reward offer to torture me.

I'm interested in government work--whether with the EPA, DOJ, DA, PD, etc., I really don't know/care at this point. I'm not drawn to biglaw, but I really have no idea of what any legal job entails, so how educated is my desire for one over the other? I want to stay in the Pacific Northwest, but again, the PNW is all I really know. (I do know for sure that I'd shrivel up and die anywhere hot.)

I got this nutty law school idea all of a sudden while fuming at my desk over something particularly ridiculous my interim supervisor had done, and was encouraged to really get into the application process by a 164 cold diagnostic LSAT. (If I'd gotten a 140 or something, the idea would have died right there.)

Initially I was just planning on the part-time program at Lewis & Clark while working full-time, hopefully with a hefty scholarship. I applied to 7 schools ranked from #6 to #64 (L&C), telling myself it was just idle curiosity (and fee waivers), and maybe I'd get some offers from higher-ranked schools to leverage more money out of L&C. Got into W&L and IU-Bloomy, all according to plan. Actually still waiting on L&C. (grrrrr)

And then...I got into Northwestern yesterday. It's the only other school on my list that tempts me at all, but I am having a total freakout pondering how to finance $73K/year COA in Chicago, plus a mortgage on my condo at home in Portland. (I could sell my condo at a mild loss, or rent it out, I guess.) Plus that whole 'moving away from my home state for the first time' thing, which frankly scares me. (I know, pathetic.)

Part-time law school on scholarship seemed like the ideal solution at first: I'd have a JD with little or nothing to pay back, plus I'd have my old job as insurance against not finding a legal job right away. Low risk/medium reward, right? And then NU comes along with its high risk/high reward offer to torture me.

I'm interested in government work--whether with the EPA, DOJ, DA, PD, etc., I really don't know/care at this point. I'm not drawn to biglaw, but I really have no idea of what any legal job entails, so how educated is my desire for one over the other? I want to stay in the Pacific Northwest, but again, the PNW is all I really know. (I do know for sure that I'd shrivel up and die anywhere hot.)

/novel (sorry!)

Congratulations! That's awesome. You must have a great GPA or something because NU usually takes higher LSAT scores. I think you really snagged a great acceptance, and you should give it serious consideration. Contact the school, and find out what kind of LRAP program they have. If you really gun hard for public interest work, you can get funding from various sources (at least, that's my perception as a non-PI law student). Plus, NU places pretty well in biglaw. I didn't think I was interested in biglaw until I got into law school and my grades were solid. Then my expectations started to climb in terms of salary. NU is one of the few other schools I would have considered, but I didn't want to drag my SO from the southwest to the midwest.

I got this nutty law school idea all of a sudden while fuming at my desk over something particularly ridiculous my interim supervisor had done, and was encouraged to really get into the application process by a 164 cold diagnostic LSAT. (If I'd gotten a 140 or something, the idea would have died right there.)

Initially I was just planning on the part-time program at Lewis & Clark while working full-time, hopefully with a hefty scholarship. I applied to 7 schools ranked from #6 to #64 (L&C), telling myself it was just idle curiosity (and fee waivers), and maybe I'd get some offers from higher-ranked schools to leverage more money out of L&C. Got into W&L and IU-Bloomy, all according to plan. Actually still waiting on L&C. (grrrrr)

And then...I got into Northwestern yesterday. It's the only other school on my list that tempts me at all, but I am having a total freakout pondering how to finance $73K/year COA in Chicago, plus a mortgage on my condo at home in Portland. (I could sell my condo at a mild loss, or rent it out, I guess.) Plus that whole 'moving away from my home state for the first time' thing, which frankly scares me. (I know, pathetic.)

Part-time law school on scholarship seemed like the ideal solution at first: I'd have a JD with little or nothing to pay back, plus I'd have my old job as insurance against not finding a legal job right away. Low risk/medium reward, right? And then NU comes along with its high risk/high reward offer to torture me.

I'm interested in government work--whether with the EPA, DOJ, DA, PD, etc., I really don't know/care at this point. I'm not drawn to biglaw, but I really have no idea of what any legal job entails, so how educated is my desire for one over the other? I want to stay in the Pacific Northwest, but again, the PNW is all I really know. (I do know for sure that I'd shrivel up and die anywhere hot.)

/novel (sorry!)

Congratulations! That's awesome. You must have a great GPA or something because NU usually takes higher LSAT scores. I think you really snagged a great acceptance, and you should give it serious consideration. Contact the school, and find out what kind of LRAP program they have. If you really gun hard for public interest work, you can get funding from various sources (at least, that's my perception as a non-PI law student). Plus, NU places pretty well in biglaw. I didn't think I was interested in biglaw until I got into law school and my grades were solid. Then my expectations started to climb in terms of salary. NU is one of the few other schools I would have considered, but I didn't want to drag my SO from the southwest to the midwest.

Well, my score on the real LSAT was 171, so above the median at NU. GPA a bit below their median. But I'm pretty sure it was the 8yrs of work experience that got me accepted. NU is unique in that respect; something like 95% of their students have WE after UG. It's almost a requirement for them. Yay for being "old"!

Thanks for the advice. I am still completely freaked out about the idea of uprooting myself to Chicago, but I've got a while to decide and fully research.

Ok this is my first post. Very few items in the forum seemed to apply to me until this one. I recieved a BS in engineering 20 years ago. I decided I want to go to Law School. I majored in engineering for the money and I have made good money in the past but have never been truly happy. One thing I think is unique about the older student is most of us have worked in our fields of choice and have made a decision to change. Im not wanting to go to law school for the money and want to enjoy my career.

Now for my issues: when I was going through my undergrad I knew my GPA didnt matter to most employers for engineers. It was hard enough to just get your degree. now, I am paying the price. I wonder how much weight law schools take my GPA into consideration?

Another issue: I remember when I could do well on any given test any time I wanted. either Im too old or out of practice but the LSAT kicked my ass. Studied hard but only achieved a average score.

Additionally I dont want to leave my home. Im 44, maried with two teenage kids, they need some stability and I need to be able to be a dad. Plus i'm happy where I live and happy to go to a tier 3 school 40 miles from my house if they will have me.

Congratulations!!! Nicely done. I, too, started out thinking it was L&C or bust, and wound up getting in schools that made me consider alternate routes. When the heck is L&C going to get back to us local old folks?

rinkrat19 wrote:Plus that whole 'moving away from my home state for the first time' thing, which frankly scares me. (I know, pathetic.)

Not pathetic at all. Look, I grew up in Philomath (no kidding), went to U of O for undergrad (don't hate -- I have no stake in any local rivalry), and split for the East Coast back in 1994. I only recently came back to Portland, and really love it here. However, I sincerely believe that getting out of town for a long stretch was a real gift. It's nice to go someplace where people speak differently, think differently, and live differently. I'm not dumb enough to think it made me better, but it certainly allowed me to enjoy my life that much more.

sandbagger wrote:Ok this is my first post. Very few items in the forum seemed to apply to me until this one. I recieved a BS in engineering 20 years ago. I decided I want to go to Law School. I majored in engineering for the money and I have made good money in the past but have never been truly happy. One thing I think is unique about the older student is most of us have worked in our fields of choice and have made a decision to change. Im not wanting to go to law school for the money and want to enjoy my career.

Now for my issues: when I was going through my undergrad I knew my GPA didnt matter to most employers for engineers. It was hard enough to just get your degree. now, I am paying the price. I wonder how much weight law schools take my GPA into consideration?

Another issue: I remember when I could do well on any given test any time I wanted. either Im too old or out of practice but the LSAT kicked my ass. Studied hard but only achieved a average score.

Additionally I dont want to leave my home. Im 44, maried with two teenage kids, they need some stability and I need to be able to be a dad. Plus i'm happy where I live and happy to go to a tier 3 school 40 miles from my house if they will have me.

Thats my story and im sticking to it.

I don't see any problem attending a TTT under those circumstances. However, I would strongly consider retaking the LSAT for scholarship purposes. I cannot count the number of times I thank God I'm not taking on debt for my tuition. It took me an extra year or two to get the numbers I needed, but it was definitely worth it. I'm probably more risk averse than most, but I also think that my scholarships helped me focus on school and employment rather than worrying about finances.

Sandbagger, I'm with you. Youngest kid starts high school next year, so I am ready for a big change. Maybe we need an Older School thread?

Took the LSAT when I was 24 and got a 179, rejected by Stanford and Harvard (only schools to which I applied!) My gpa is not great, about a 3.3 but it was from a school that hadn't succumbed to grade inflation. I did not party; I spent all my time studying and putting serious effort into my work, but so it goes! Nothing I can do about that gpa. I took the LSAT last month and scored much lower (somehow hadn't realized that you need to study so much for the test, and no doubt my brain has deteriorated a lot too.)

So my sights are much lower in terms of LS ranking, looking at commute schools that are well within my gpa/LSAT. I don't feel I have a lot of options. But I do worry that after investing so much $$ and time, I won't be able to get a decent job. Certainly not expecting big law, but considering I will be the same age (or older than) many partners, well, is it crazy for me to consider school? Probably. But I have always regretted not getting the JD (got an MBA instead) and I fear that I am only going to get older and less marketable!

I approached law school with the mentality that no 22-year-old was going to outwork me. Some of them might be sharper than I am, but I felt like my experience was an advantage with respect to work ethic. Don't get me wrong; some of these kids have given me a good run for my money, but for the most part, I'm just out hustling a lot of them. If you really want this, then go all the way. Non-trads don't have the luxury of making a huge mistake. Go hard or go home because it's a tough, tough market full of smart and driven individuals.

Last edited by JazzOne on Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Congratulations!!! Nicely done. I, too, started out thinking it was L&C or bust, and wound up getting in schools that made me consider alternate routes. When the heck is L&C going to get back to us local old folks?

rinkrat19 wrote:Plus that whole 'moving away from my home state for the first time' thing, which frankly scares me. (I know, pathetic.)

Not pathetic at all. Look, I grew up in Philomath (no kidding), went to U of O for undergrad (don't hate -- I have no stake in any local rivalry), and split for the East Coast back in 1994. I only recently came back to Portland, and really love it here. However, I sincerely believe that getting out of town for a long stretch was a real gift. It's nice to go someplace where people speak differently, think differently, and live differently. I'm not dumb enough to think it made me better, but it certainly allowed me to enjoy my life that much more.

Besides, Chicago hot dogs are gud.

My apartment in Corvallis was on Philomath Blvd on the edge of town, behind the Bi-Mart.

I do love a good hot dog. As another plus, I love hockey and would be very happy spending my free time and money at the United Center in a Blackhawks jersey. As a minus, the ski resorts near Chicago are just...sad.

More seriously, I totally hear what you are saying about getting out of town, and agree. I think I should leave the PNW for a while...I just don't know if I can.

For everyone else, check out this absolute gem that ResolutePear posted in another thread. (If I can figure out how to insert an image)

I got this nutty law school idea all of a sudden while fuming at my desk over something particularly ridiculous my interim supervisor had done, and was encouraged to really get into the application process by a 164 cold diagnostic LSAT. (If I'd gotten a 140 or something, the idea would have died right there.)

Initially I was just planning on the part-time program at Lewis & Clark while working full-time, hopefully with a hefty scholarship. I applied to 7 schools ranked from #6 to #64 (L&C), telling myself it was just idle curiosity (and fee waivers), and maybe I'd get some offers from higher-ranked schools to leverage more money out of L&C. Got into W&L and IU-Bloomy, all according to plan. Actually still waiting on L&C. (grrrrr)

And then...I got into Northwestern yesterday. It's the only other school on my list that tempts me at all, but I am having a total freakout pondering how to finance $73K/year COA in Chicago, plus a mortgage on my condo at home in Portland. (I could sell my condo at a mild loss, or rent it out, I guess.) Plus that whole 'moving away from my home state for the first time' thing, which frankly scares me. (I know, pathetic.)

Part-time law school on scholarship seemed like the ideal solution at first: I'd have a JD with little or nothing to pay back, plus I'd have my old job as insurance against not finding a legal job right away. Low risk/medium reward, right? And then NU comes along with its high risk/high reward offer to torture me.

I'm interested in government work--whether with the EPA, DOJ, DA, PD, etc., I really don't know/care at this point. I'm not drawn to biglaw, but I really have no idea of what any legal job entails, so how educated is my desire for one over the other? I want to stay in the Pacific Northwest, but again, the PNW is all I really know. (I do know for sure that I'd shrivel up and die anywhere hot.)

/novel (sorry!)

Wow, +1 to everything you said! I am also an Oregonian and trying to decide between selling at a loss and moving away from my whole life, or going to a not-great school on a scholarship...or wait a year, or not go at all. I'm also interested in government, definitely not biglaw because I am worried about the time commitment. I feel like I found my TLS twinsy.

Smitten wrote:Wow, +1 to everything you said! I am also an Oregonian and trying to decide between selling at a loss and moving away from my whole life, or going to a not-great school on a scholarship...or wait a year, or not go at all. I'm also interested in government, definitely not biglaw because I am worried about the time commitment. I feel like I found my TLS twinsy.

Hey, Twinsy! Oregonians With Existential Dilemmas represent.

Deferring actually is sounding kind of great. I'd have a year to get my shit in order here, condo-wise and job-quitting-wise and moving-my-entire-life-wise. I'd pass 5 years at my current job and become vested so I could take my retirement account with me when I quit. My employers wouldn't want to kill me for giving them 4 months' notice instead of just starting attending classes in the evenings like I'd been talking about.

Smitten wrote:Wow, +1 to everything you said! I am also an Oregonian and trying to decide between selling at a loss and moving away from my whole life, or going to a not-great school on a scholarship...or wait a year, or not go at all. I'm also interested in government, definitely not biglaw because I am worried about the time commitment. I feel like I found my TLS twinsy.

Hey, Twinsy! Oregonians With Existential Dilemmas represent.

Deferring actually is sounding kind of great. I'd have a year to get my shit in order here, condo-wise and job-quitting-wise and moving-my-entire-life-wise. I'd pass 5 years at my current job and become vested so I could take my retirement account with me when I quit. My employers wouldn't want to kill me for giving them 4 months' notice instead of just starting attending classes in the evenings like I'd been talking about.

Same! Exactly what you said about being vested and then also about telling them I was staying in Oregon. I was totally planning on it too until I realized I had a shot at better schools. What's an Oregon girl to do?

I got this nutty law school idea all of a sudden while fuming at my desk over something particularly ridiculous my interim supervisor had done, and was encouraged to really get into the application process by a 164 cold diagnostic LSAT. (If I'd gotten a 140 or something, the idea would have died right there.)

Initially I was just planning on the part-time program at Lewis & Clark while working full-time, hopefully with a hefty scholarship. I applied to 7 schools ranked from #6 to #64 (L&C), telling myself it was just idle curiosity (and fee waivers), and maybe I'd get some offers from higher-ranked schools to leverage more money out of L&C. Got into W&L and IU-Bloomy, all according to plan. Actually still waiting on L&C. (grrrrr)

And then...I got into Northwestern yesterday. It's the only other school on my list that tempts me at all, but I am having a total freakout pondering how to finance $73K/year COA in Chicago, plus a mortgage on my condo at home in Portland. (I could sell my condo at a mild loss, or rent it out, I guess.) Plus that whole 'moving away from my home state for the first time' thing, which frankly scares me. (I know, pathetic.)

Part-time law school on scholarship seemed like the ideal solution at first: I'd have a JD with little or nothing to pay back, plus I'd have my old job as insurance against not finding a legal job right away. Low risk/medium reward, right? And then NU comes along with its high risk/high reward offer to torture me.

I'm interested in government work--whether with the EPA, DOJ, DA, PD, etc., I really don't know/care at this point. I'm not drawn to biglaw, but I really have no idea of what any legal job entails, so how educated is my desire for one over the other? I want to stay in the Pacific Northwest, but again, the PNW is all I really know. (I do know for sure that I'd shrivel up and die anywhere hot.)

/novel (sorry!)

Wow, +1 to everything you said! I am also an Oregonian and trying to decide between selling at a loss and moving away from my whole life, or going to a not-great school on a scholarship...or wait a year, or not go at all. I'm also interested in government, definitely not biglaw because I am worried about the time commitment. I feel like I found my TLS twinsy.

There must be something in the water in Portland. That is my home town too. I left for UG and have spent the last 13 years in Chicago. My situation is similar in that I am weighing the benefits of prestige and moving vs reduced debt, but I am fortunate to have UIUC as an in-state option. UT has also been really generous so I think there is a good chance I'd end up there.

My situation is also similar in that L + C has responded to my application with deafening silence despite good numbers and ties to Oregon. Maybe they are reviewing applicants in order from youngest to oldest.

Rinkrat, I am sure there are people on this site who could answer law school specific questions about NU better than I, but if you have any general Chicago questions you'd liked answered from the perspective of a former Oregonian, feel free to ask me. It is probably not outing myself too much to say that I have some familiarity with NU as well.

Since there are lots of parents, people who have been out in the job market, and people who know about the establishing oneself as a successful lawyer ITT, I am going to ask for some nuanced advice.

I had initially thought that biglaw was out of the question because I am a single parent and have no interest in strangers raising my child. I thought that a degree, even from a low-ranked school, would suit me just fine because I anticipate hustling my way into a smaller firm where I could have better hours (even with less pay but room to grow). However, I have done more research, and am now under the following impressions:

1. It is not entirely unreasonable to work for biglaw and still be home by 6:30 4 nights a week, eat dinner with my kid, talk about homework, read her a story, put her to bed, and then work from home until midnight (fine by me).2. It is hard to get a job in a smaller firm right out of law school because they want experienced lawyers. Also, working in biglaw exposes you to every possible angle in a case and sets you up to be a better lawyer later in life. Therefore, it is best to shoot for biglaw, quit after 3 years or so, and then work at a smaller firm.

I have known lawyers who do just fine financially and still have time to coach little league teams, go to PTA meetings, and take the girl scouts camping on weekends. That is my ultimate goal. I'm okay with a mere $70,000 a year. Should I still shoot for biglaw, and thus a more prestigious school than the T2 schools that are offering me full scholarships?

Im 33 and I have been a college professor and debate coach for 5 years. I recently took the lsat and got a 161. Now I would like to explore the idea of going to ls. However, my ugpa was low (2.75, although I have over 70 hours of grad work with a 3.65 gpa), and I need to find a school where I can get in and get money (I am married with 4 kids, can't really afford a ton more debt). I don't mind t 3/4, because I want to be a govt criminal attorney anyways.

Any suggestions for schools to apply to that are sympathetic to nontrads?