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Al

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I don't disagree. What I will posit, even though I'm not a proponent of TARP, is that the stakes were much higher on a scale. I don't see this as a mutually exclusive discussion. How we address our safety net and care for our disadvantaged is directly dependent upon the health of our economy. One does not come at the expense of the other IMO.

I think I pointed out, if my research on the topic is accurate, that the TARP monies have been recovered to the treasury. "TARP recovered funds totaling $441.7 billion from $426.4 billion invested."

So you know where I'm coming from. I have fewer issues with our social safety net in the discretionary budget, I think we can all agree it is small potatoes, and it should be managed to ensure it takes care of our most needy and not be abused. My major concern right now is for our entitlement programs; SS and medicare. They are currently unsustainable and need to be addressed.

Note: I view TARP as a bandaid fix to the fundamental problems I explained earlier.

GOM--

I have no fault with your historical accuracy.

But I think we can practically-- not absolutely-- point to the bogusness of TARP by the simple fact that they did not distribute the money to the distressed homeowners who were under water-- who would have simply used it to then turn over to the bank, which would have helped out TWO constituencies for the same dollar. And in fact, one could quite comfortably (and righteously) argue BETTER DESERVED that dollar since they were the ones ultimately having to dig deep to scrape it up to hand over to the banks. The *CONSUMERS* saved the banks and basically got shit on for doing it.

I view TARP as a money grab by people who already had plenty at the expense of people who were desperate and in line to lose their homes.

I don't mind helping out those in need, but not at the expense of those who *really* need it.

But I think we can practically-- not absolutely-- point to the bogusness of TARP by the simple fact that they did not distribute the money to the distressed homeowners who were under water-- who would have simply used it to then turn over to the bank, which would have helped out TWO constituencies for the same dollar. And in fact, one could quite comfortably (and righteously) argue BETTER DESERVED that dollar since they were the ones ultimately having to dig deep to scrape it up to hand over to the banks. The *CONSUMERS* saved the banks and basically got shit on for doing it.

I view TARP as a money grab by people who already had plenty at the expense of people who were desperate and in line to lose their homes.

I don't mind helping out those in need, but not at the expense of those who *really* need it.

Again, I don't disagree. I actually lived in the first housing bubble crash in California in the early 90s. A prelude to the 2008 debacle. Back then, there was a fever of over purchasing and speculative investment with the idea that housing was only going to increase in value. Arms were a big draw. I did not play that game at the time realizing it was a fools game. I came out of that bubble and the 2008 bubble well ahead. the challenge is delineating who was caught up in the debacle simply focusing on their ability to pay and have a home within their means and those who took a more speculative approach. The later I have no sympathy for.

Then there are those who speculated on multiple homes and suddenly they were victims demanding recompense on the backs of real people wth problems. I have no sympathy for those either.

So this leaves us with the question; how many of those who lost their asses were simple folk living within their means, and how many were those caught up in the fever, lost their asses, and are riding the tide of the tragedy of the first. I don't know the answer and don't believe anyone really does. What I can guess is the former is a small proportion of the mass based on the size of the bubble.

Frankly, there were and are a number of programs to assist those honest brokers... TARP was a separate deal and again on does not operate at the exclusion of the other.

and those low rates havent encouraged growth. Businesses are still borrowing less.

Meanwhile, the home owner casino is back with a vengeance.
Well maybe not quite in the US but here in Oz, its outta control.
People are treating their homes as investments and using them as a backstop to fund their lifestyle choices.
Its all Audi and shares in SNAP here.

I paid 17.45% in the 90's for an unlivable dog-box.
The thing is I paid 90k which was something like 3x my earnings.
The same house now is in the order of $1M ... which is like 10x earnings.
Blind Freddy can see the cliff.

right now, everybody wants ion the gravy train and mum and dad investors own multiple houses
Superannuation funds, including self managed, are still buying up both domestic and commercial.

There are housing bubbles from Hanoi to Hanover ... and no grow in either gdp, pmi, or wages.
even at 4.5% the highly leveraged are going to have cash-flow problems in the near future.

This feels a lot like 1989 to me and, in my opinion, will not end well.

"Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one" - Charles Mackay

And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee. - Donne

"What we are seeing in this headless misandry is a grand display of the Tyranny of the Underdog: 'I am a wretchedly longstanding victim; therefore I own no burden of adult accountability, nor need to honor any restraint against my words and actions. In fact, all efforts to restrain me are only further proof of my oppressed condition.'
"It is the most perfect trump-card against accountable living ever devised." - Gladden Schrock

"What remains for most men in modern life is a world of expectation without reward, burden without honor and service without self" - Paul Elam

Well...
Here's my first problem...I don't get why leftists who have issue with intervention in Iraq which they see as snatch and grab operation for resources and capital also support an open boarder policy in relation to the very people who's nation's they believe their governments have raped and plundered?

Isn't that a bit like breaking a guy's nose then dropping your hands and waiting for him to counter?

Finally some one else noticed that! Why in the fuck would we bring in millions of people who we have been bombing for the better part of 2 fucking decades?

Maxx, I don't know if you read my red pill story, but here is the summary; I am a former liberal red pilled by my hatred of feminism and its new best friend the D.N.C.

This is the truth as I see it:

They (lib tards) believe that the United states is/hasCommitted mass genocide of Native peoples on its own territory
Committed mass murder in other peaceful nations
Is built on Stolen land
Constructed entirely with slave labor
Oppressed all workers everywhere
Conscripted forcibly the women of Europe to participate in this endevor
Responsible for human trafficking, slavery, and climate change
Won its independence as a result of psychopathic gun owning nut jobs that refuse to pay taxes

And these things are what so many of them believe and why it seems so many of them simply will not rest until it [The united States]is totally destroyed.
When viewed in that context so many of there demands suddenly make sense.

Take for example the bat shit crazy alliance of feminism and Islamism. The most barbarically patriarchal culture in recorded history. And they are
*get this*Allied.
This thinking can only possibly make sense in the context of 'The enemy of my enemy is my friend'

OH? You would like to Flame ME? ... ok, come now, don't be shy.... Step into the light....