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Good day, denizens of OC.net! Per our tradition, the forum will shut down for Clean Monday, beginning around 9pm Sunday evening (2/18) and ending around 9pm Monday evening (2/19). In the spirit of the coming Forgiveness Sunday, I ask you to forgive me for the sins I have committed against you. At the end of Great and Holy Week, the Forum will also shut down for Holy Friday and Holy Saturday (times TBA).

My wife and I are orthodox christians and love the Lord with all our hearts, and we don't want to do anything to sin against Him. Our question is in the area of oral sex. Is it scripturally wrong for married couples. If yes or no, why in each case (by supporting answers from the bible) ?

P.S. Was the punishment of Sodom & Gomorrah because of homosexuality mainly or what?THANKS A LOT.

This is probably an answer you should seek from your father of confession rather than online... but it is wrong. Sex is a means of grace by which the couple is united and are one flesh. Acts like this one are more ordered towards gratifying lust. Don't get me wrong, it's good to enjoy each other, it's not about pleasure being wrong or anything like that, it's just seperating sex from the natural unitive act, which should not be done. Also, you shouldn't just be looking to the Bible for your answers, and looking only for answers that are "proved" from the Bible. Doublessly one person will come and quote verses that "prove" it's ok, and another will "prove" that it's not. You're better off to consult with your father of confession and be obedient to him and to the Orthodox tradition and spirituality (which is completely in harmony with the Bible, never contradicting it) which he's supposed to guide you in.

I really do not understand what do u want 2 say. Do u imply that if we do so, then we r on our way 2 hell eternally even if we r in a true correct orthodox marraige ? Is there any evidence from the the Bible ?

I don't think that the Scripture deals with this particular aspect of sexuality directly, but traditionally oral sex has not been allowed in the Orthodox Church. Generally, any intentional "wasting" of semen is considered a bad thing, and thus the ancient Church only endorsed one particular method/position for sexual relations. Some Fathers took this so far that they gave a penance and refused communion to anyone who had unintentionally had a wet dream, though other Fathers saw this as a non-issue if it was not a willful action or due to negligence. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š As to Sodom and Gomorrah, the Scripture mentions these cities a half dozen times or more, and only once gives their sin as sexual in nature (and even in that case--Jude 7--homosexuality is not listed by name). Jesus even says that Capernaum would have a tougher time on Judgment day than Sodom. Nonetheless, at some point during Judeo-Christian history, the idea that Sodom's sin was mainly homosexual in nature did become the interpretation accepted by the majority.

I really do not understand what do u want 2 say. Do u imply that if we do so, then we r on our way 2 hell eternally even if we r in a true correct orthodox marraige ? Is there any evidence from the the Bible ?

No one is saying that anyone is on their way to hell here... judgment belongs to God not to us! What we're saying is that the act you've asked about is in fact a sin, and rather than leading you to intimacy with your spouce and with God as do marital relations, this act will lead you away from this intimacy and is actually a source of isolation, both from your spounce and from God. It is a selfish act rather than a giving one. No one is going futher to say that this seperation will be an eternal one leading to eternal condemnation in Hell, God is the judge of such things, not us, we all sin, and God knows how He deals with us according to His mercy. But it would certainly be safer not to wilfully commit such a sin, and besides, who cares about preoccupation with Hell? life is better in the love of God, and that's what we should persue, seeking His will out of love for Him, not fear of Hell.

As someone else said, all the unnatural acts that spill the seed so that lust can be satisfied without the marital act taking place go together: oral sex, anal sex, onan's method, masterbation, etc., none of these are the loving, giving, natural, sacramental, beautiful marital embrace that God has ordained to give grace to copules and to be a type of the love between Christ and His Church. Rather they are perversions of human sexuality.

That's not to see any of us are judging you if you do these things, they are difficult, addictive sins that are easy to fall into, especially in a society that trains us to think they're normal when they're not. It isn't the place of us sinners to judge you... However without judgment, and out of love I tell you that these things are not pleasing to God, and that you will be happier without them.

Lust consumes, it never satisfies. It is depraved, and just leads you wanting more and more, less and less satisfied. The satisfaction it promises is a lie it wispers before leaving us empty. It is completely different than the loving marital act (not that this too can't be done out of lust rather than as an expression of love if you're hearts desire is to take pleasure from your spouce rather than to love her).

From what I've read of these things from holy men who have experienced marriage: Basically these lustful things are immature, perverted expressions of human sexuality. In marriage, in the beginning if you need sexy clothes and that kind of thing, it's not wrong, but it's also immature (that is not a judgment or saying it's wrong, just that there's better to be had). Later marital sex should progress to be less and less about the physical and more and more about an expression of love... Not that you stop enjoying the physical, but rather that you discover more and greater depth of meaning in the spiritual and emotional connection... Although of course never should the physical aspect be despised or thought wrong, it is given to be enjoyed.

As for Biblical proofs, looks as people have mentioned about any instance of perverted sexual acts in the OT, or about what St. Paul says about lust and about sexual imorality in the NT... or about the types given of Christ and the Church.... there's lots to read there if you want to look, but I for one am not knowledgable enough to guide you through it, and really, if you want to you will read into it whatever you want to see, which is why you're better to subject yourself to the guidance of your father of confession rather than to make yourself your own father of confession by trusting in your own mind to interpret the Bible and discover what's right in a matter in which you have passions and desires.

I don't think that the Scripture deals with this particular aspect of sexuality directly, but traditionally oral sex has not been allowed in the Orthodox Church. Generally, any intentional "wasting" of semen is considered a bad thing, and thus the ancient Church only endorsed one particular method/position for sexual relations.

Every sperm is sacred.Every sperm is great.If a sperm is wasted,God gets quite irate.

Let the heathen spill theirsOn the dusty ground.God shall make them pay forEach sperm that can't be found.

Now if someone actually wants a serious theological answer, St. John Chrysostom teaches us that the primary reason for marriage is to give us a context to fulfill our lusts without falling into sin. So if this is the primary reason for marriage, why shouldn't oral sex be acceptable, as it accomplishes the purpose of marriage...but really, you're not going to hell because of this subject no matter what you do, and whether or not oral sex is appropriate for your relationship is really a question that should be answered between you and your wife...not you, your wife, and a bunch of nut-cases online

This is a question that comes up surprisingly often with couples. I agree that it is between a couple and their spiritual directory. The other thing is that in all sexual matters, there must be agreement and no cohesion, between the marriage partners. Where this really goes wrong is if it involves degradation, force and involving persons outside the marriage.

As Christians, we should do things in moderation - sex, eating, alcohol, work etc. If we focus too much on worldly matters, this is a problem.

To biblical commentary, there is little (if any) direct evidence to Oral sex in the scriptures. As one prof. said to me once, it is simply because, due to hygiene issues, it really never occurred that often to worry about.

Finally, unless this involves adultery, this issue is between you, your wife and not with a bunch of bored nut cases on line!

I kept reading, but didn't find one. All I found was an argument that (as implied) since St. John Chrysostom didn't explicitly say no to oral sex, and since (as stated) he said that marriage was supposed to be a way to vent our sexual urges (something pretty much all Fathers said), that it must follow that oral sex is permissable. But you have not shown (nor can you show ) that the Church Fathers considered oral sex to be a permissable method for alleviating all the urges people get. Put another way, you state that "St. John Chrysostom teaches us that the primary reason for marriage is to give us a context to fulfill our lusts without falling into sin," but then fail to demonstrate with a single piece of evidence that oral sex does not fall under the "sin" category. Just because it subdues sexual urges, that doesn't mean that it is permissable according to the Scripture or the Church Fathers, which is what the person asked about.

Now, had the person asked "What is your personal opinion on the matter?" I would have said to go ahead and do it if you and your spouse want.

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and whether or not oral sex is appropriate for your relationship is really a question that should be answered between you and your wife...not you, your wife, and a bunch of nut-cases online

Very true! But you must understand, nut cases cannot resist commenting when asked

I kept reading, but didn't find one. All I found was an argument that (as implied) since St. John Chrysostom didn't explicitly say no to oral sex, and since (as stated) he said that marriage was supposed to be a way to vent our sexual urges (something pretty much all Fathers said), that it must follow that oral sex is permissable. But you have not shown (nor can you show ) that the Church Fathers considered oral sex to be a permissable method for alleviating all the urges people get. Put another way, you state that "St. John Chrysostom teaches us that the primary reason for marriage is to give us a context to fulfill our lusts without falling into sin," but then fail to demonstrate with a single piece of evidence that oral sex does not fall under the "sin" category. Just because it subdues sexual urges, that doesn't mean that it is permissable according to the Scripture or the Church Fathers, which is what the person asked about.

Oh, I know it's not explicit permission and I doubt you'll find it even if you looked. But using a bit of reason, Marriage is to fulfill sexual desires, oral sex fulfills sexual desires, therefore oral sex accomplishes the primary purpose of marriage according to the fathers (or Chrysostom at least); thus, since it fulfills marriage there is no rational reason why it should not be acceptable in the context of marriage. I'm aware that I probably used more logic in my argument than Chrysostom could have handled and he might not have liked the implications, but so what? I mean, he was celibate afterall.

You do have to admit though, it's amongst the better arguments in favour of oral sex from a patristic perspective.

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Now, had the person asked "What is your personal opinion on the matter?" I would have said to go ahead and do it if you and your spouse want.

Well, that's good to hear...I was going to say that you're the most religious and traditionalist agnostic I've ever known...mind you I might still say that.

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Very true! But you must understand, nut cases cannot resist commenting when asked

Why do you think I responded ...well, the real reason I responded was because I wanted to quote one of my favourite monty python songs...it's almost up there with the philosopher's drinking song

Why do you think I responded ...well, the real reason I responded was because I wanted to quote one of my favourite monty python songs...it's almost up there with the philosopher's drinking song

I just saw that recently, as it was in my NetFlix queue.....better than Life of Brian (now I know why I hadn't seen it in 15 years - it wasn't that great), but not even close to as good as Holy Grail which nothing comes close to.

TROLL ALERT !!! ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ORTHODOXIAN? ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Why would any Orthodox in their right mind bring this subject matter up in a public forum . I call on the Mods to close this thread.

Logged

"Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names." - John F. Kennedy (1917-1963)

I just cannot believe all the attention this post is getting. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š I mean, come on people, get real. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Are we Orthodox, or are we puritans? ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Asteriktos, with all due respect, I don't know where you get the idea that the Fathers "state" that there is only one permissable "position" for the sexual act. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š But you're not the only one who thinks this. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š A certain seminary professor who shall remain nameless seemed to like to pull stuff like this out of thin air regularly, as far as I can see. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š (I'm pinching myself to see if we're actually discussing this on line. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Oh. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Yes. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š We are.) ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Of course we have to work towards getting rid of or baptising of all of our passions. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š None of them are good. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Why are we specifically discussing this particular sexual practice? ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Maybe we should discuss whether it's worse to gorge ourselves on ham, bacon, or pizza while consuming a milkshake. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š This is gluttonous, no? ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š What do the fathers have to say about having 5 fajitas and an all-dressed pizza WITH a pitcher of beer? ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š From what I have read, it's perfectly okay if the beer in question is a lager, but if it's an ale, well, the canons completely forbid this......I know, I know, no sexual "whatever" should go on without at least the possibility of a pregnancy happening...okay, I'm stopping it right there and not going any further. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š I don't want to talk about this. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š I concur with Anastasios. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Sorry if I upset anyone.

I do not believe we should be discussing this on an internet forum. It is between two married people and maybe their spiritual father.

Anastasios

I agree. What about those younger than the "age of adulthood" (16, 17, 18, ??) who frequent this forum, even just to read threads as unregistered guests? Such talk as I see on this thread--not that it's not important in its proper context--would strike the parents of children and adolescents as bordering on the pornographic.

I just saw that recently, as it was in my NetFlix queue.....better than Life of Brian (now I know why I hadn't seen it in 15 years - it wasn't that great), but not even close to as good as Holy Grail which nothing comes close to.

Both the Meaning of Life and Holy Grail are great, I dont know what is my favourite...of course, my level of intoxication may influence which one I would prefer at any given time.

Holy Grail probably has the best scenes of the two (including the Castle Anthrax scene, though it's not the best in the movie)...unfortunately it tends to drag a bit in places, but if you have a good supply of alcohol that's not too big of a concern.

When you say "drag", I presume you're referring to the loss in velocity experienced by an airborne swallow while attempting to carry a coconut aloft. Otherwise, I'm sure I haven't the faintest idea of what you're talking about.

When you say "drag", I presume you're referring to the loss in velocity experienced by an airborne swallow while attempting to carry a coconut aloft. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š Otherwise, I'm sure I haven't the faintest idea of what you're talking about. ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€š

Such talk as I see on this thread--not that it's not important in its proper context--would strike the parents of children and adolescents as bordering on the pornographic

And I too agree that there is no place on a religious forum for this gutter garbage which is offensive to Believers and not just parents with children. Moderators should place some limits on the sexual content of threads if they are going to limit political discussions that may offend whoever.

I went ahead and locked this thread, even though this is cleveland's forum. My apologies to cleveland for intervening without his approval.

This thread concerns a rather serious and realistic issue that may couples face and deal with. While it may in fact be of an "XXX" nature, I think that somewhat civil discussion of the issue could yield potential fruit.

Of course, having said that, this thread has gone seriously off course and will likely yield nothing more worthwhile.

In response to bergschlawiner, who feels that moderators should place limits on sexual content, the ban on political discussion is due to the fact that this is an Orthodox Christian message board that discusses issues related to faith, spirituality, morality, and the like. Political discussion clearly deviates from this mission. Since this thread was seemingly created with the intention NOT to offend, but to instead honestly seek guidance in faith regarding a matter that many feel is sinful, I can't say such inquiries be limited if they are honest.

Of course, as in any spiritual matter, the standard disclaimer applies:You should discuss this (and any other spiritual issue) with a trusted priest who practices the True Faith prior to seeking recourse on an Orthodox christian message board. We are not priests, nor are we qualified to give spiritual advice.