Sorry to hear it. Most of what I know aboiut Hagee is from catching a few minutes - as much as I can stomach - when flipping channels. His biblical interpretation & theology are appalling even before one gets to stuff about the State of Israel. His mixture of religion & flag-waving unfortunately has a long history & is responsible, I suspect, for a lot of his support.

I meant by way of protestors at his events. Those who attend his events all think they are doing the right Christian thing and are clueless to any opposition. I know- I've talked to them. I was even booted out of one small event gathering when an organizer recognized me (because of my face on my old blog), and I had only the intention of being there to learn and ask questions if they has a Q&A time. I had no intention of disturbance.

Since you persistently miss my point & attack things I have no wish to defend, there's no point in my responding further to you on this thread.

The statement that there is "no opposition" to Hagee is false. See, e.g., 2 articles in the theological journal dialog, "Toward a Lutheran Response to Christian Zionism" by Robert O. Smith & a response by Tony Richie. Unfortunately in theology as in economics, bad money drives out good.

George said:
"My post was about the sources of our ethics, not the conclusions they draw from those sources. I have no use for the theology or politics of John Hagee but that is quite irrelevant to the point I made. So are Christians suffering at the hands of Israelis, the Holocaust, the firebombing of Dresden, the Tasmanian genocide & all the other examples you might think of."

My point is that some Christians claim their morals come from the Bible and are actually making the world a much worse place, even a worse place for fellow Christians. That is Pastor Hagee and his CUFI group. He should be rebuked by evangelicals. Instead, he is reaching into evangelical churches to have his "night to honor Israel" party fundraisers. It seems like his group is growing, and not being rebuked by the church at large (yes, there is some Christian opposition, though, but nothing significant). It is a cancer in the church, supposedly a Bible-based cancer. When I was a Christian I tried to rebuke his group with my online ministry using Scripture to show how he was misinterpreting Scripture.

I am not saying this is hypocritical; as they are actually trying to base their prejudice on the Bible. Hagee's favorite verse is the one that Gods says He'll bless those who bless Abraham. Evidently he's trying to seek God's blessing. He must not understand the blessings of Christ! He doesn't comprehend that everything was fulfilled in Christ. He's a church cancer like YEC is a church cancer. And the church cancers thrive because fellow Christians are unwilling to clean house. The apologetics leaders are sleeping on the job, because it is of their own. They are so focused on the evil outside that they turn a blind eye to evil inside (also because they want funding from the evil inside, too; the evil inside is a money source.).

My post was about the sources of our ethics, not the conclusions they draw from those sources. I have no use for the theology or politics of John Hagee but that is quite irrelevant to the point I made. So are Christians suffering at the hands of Israelis, the Holocaust, the firebombing of Dresden, the Tasmanian genocide & all the other examples you might think of.

Of course Francis Collins uses his brains in thinking about ethical issues. No intelligent Christian today imagines that you can get all your ethical guidance about the use of modern technologies just by quoting Bible verses but that doesn't mean that their beliefs about those things aren't grounded in, or sometimes limited by, what scripture has to say. See, e.g., chapters 9-11 of The Cosmos in the Light of the Cross.

>I think one of the strong points for Francis Collins is that he is very interested in ethics in medicine. However, I could see (imagine) him leading a panel discussion on ethics on a certain issue with fellow scientists, and never bringing up God or the Bible. If there is no reference to God or the Bible, how can it be important? I think Christians underestimate how much they use reason alone (and humanistic ideas), and mistakenly think they are drawing from some sort of Biblical wisdom.
>
> And by the way, I think atheism is undergoing a 'reformation' just as Christianity had to go through one. I think there was a 'dark period' for atheism just as there was for Christianity.
>
> And do you recognize how Christians (in CUFI) are causing trouble in the Middle East by siding with Israel as God's chosen people and Israel being their Holy Land?
>
> More info on Christian suffering at the hands of the Israeli's:
> http://ethicsdaily.com/news.php?viewStory=14109 >
> Pastor Hagee seems to think it is ok to push out or kill the Palestinians because they have no right to the Holy Land. It is a sort of Christian-supported ethnic cleansing.
>
> ...Bernie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: George Murphy [mailto:GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com]
> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 9:24 AM
> To: Dehler, Bernie; ASA
> Subject: Re: [asa] Francis Collins shows mild signs of dementia, NA snark
>
> Wrong as usual. All Christians believe that the revelation to which they
> believe the Bible witnesses is a fundamental source for ethics. Other
> sources (natural law &c) may of course be appealed to. The fact that they
> differ about the ethical implications to be drawn from this fundamental
> source doesn't change the fact that they believe there to be such a source.
> Thus the situation is quite different from that of atheists like Dawkins et
> al. (Note that in my earlier post I said "many atheists," not "all
> atheists.")
>
> Shalom
> George
> http://home.roadrunner.com/~scitheologyglm >
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dehler, Bernie" <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
> To: "ASA" <asa@calvin.edu>
> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 11:53 AM
> Subject: RE: [asa] Francis Collins shows mild signs of dementia, NA snark
>
>
>> George said:
>> "I've tried to bear in mind. & one weakness of the position of many
>> atheists is that they have no clear basis for their ethics."
>>
>> Neither do Christians.
>>
>> Take any controversial subject and there are different opinions with
>> Christians. Of course, those who disagree are the "wrong" Christians or
>> don't interpret the Bible correctly.
>>
>> Sometimes Christians are the enemy to peace, such in Israel where they are
>> one-sided pro-Israel because Israel is God's chosen people. Morals and
>> ethics go out the window on that one with Pastor John Hagee's CUFI (and
>> they say they have a clear Biblical basis for this). The Israeli's can do
>> no wrong because they are God's people and that is their land, they say.
>> There is no sense of doing what's right or fair from an equality
>> standpoint. Of course, some Christians rightly rebuke Hagee and CUFI.
>> But CUFI makes a lot of noise, and I don't think there is a counter
>> Christian group standing up and shouting for real justice. In this way,
>> the Christians are creating havoc in the world, because so much terrorisms
>> etc., stems from the Israeli issue. Even Christians suffer in Israel,
>> something pro-Israel Christians seem to be indifferent or blind to.
>>
>> ...Bernie
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
>> Behalf Of Ted Davis
>> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 7:39 AM
>> To: ASA; Dave Wallace; gmurphy10@neo.rr.com; Gregory Arago
>> Cc: David Opderbeck
>> Subject: Re: [asa] Francis Collins shows mild signs of dementia, NA snark
>>
>> I echo George' point, Gregory. I don't think you are an ASA member. If
>> you were (say) a member for a few years (or more), you would realize that
>> the ASA has for decades been about a much broader range of issues related
>> to science and religion than you seem to be aware of. Also, a broader
>> range of disciplines and perspectives than is often reflected on this
>> list. You ought to consider becoming a member, Gregory. A lot of good
>> things have been published in our journal and discussed at our meetings.
>>
>> Ted
>>
>>>>> <gmurphy10@neo.rr.com> 10/19/2009 10:29 AM >>>
>> Bob Russell pointed out some years ago that the area usuaully referred to
>> as "science and religion" is more accurately
>> "science-religion-technology-ethics," a point I've tried to bear in mind.
>> & one weakness of the position of many atheists is that they have no clear
>> basis for their ethics. Of course that doesn't mean that they can't be
>> nice people but their worldview provides no reason why they should be
>> nice.
>>
>> Shalom,
>> George
>>
>> ---- Gregory Arago <gregoryarago@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>> Hi Dave,
>>>
>>> Thanks for the link!
>>>
>>> I liked these lines:
>>>
>>> "while we talk about the clash between God and science, in practice it
>>> often comes down to disagreements about man and morals. The boundaries
>>> are not always neat." - William McGurn
>>>
>>> Maybe it is time that the 'narrow' (as Ted Davis has just said to me)
>>> discussion of 'science and religion' opened itself up a bit to involve
>>> areas of importance that it has not yet sufficiently considered?
>>>
>>> - G.A.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Dave Wallace <wmdavid.wallace@gmail.com>
>>> To: ASA <asa@calvin.edu>
>>> Cc: David Opderbeck <dopderbeck@gmail.com>
>>> Sent: Mon, October 19, 2009 4:04:07 PM
>>> Subject: [asa] Francis Collins shows mild signs of dementia, NA snark
>>>
>>>
>>> God vs. Science Isn't the Issue
>>>
>>> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB20001424052748704429304574467320574576460..html >>>
>>> Dave W
>>>
>>>
>>> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
>>> "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> __________________________________________________________________
>>> Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr!
>>>
>>> http://www.flickr.com/gift/ >>
>>
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>> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
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Received on Tue Oct 20 13:55:48 2009