which is an answer to what? and by the way. I don't expect anything better from a cynical.

I was kidding. This is a thread about spankings, and someone said parent's have a fetish (presumably from a non-parent). So, I played along with the spanking fetish (bondage; S&M) and brought up safety words.

I had to spank my little sister a few weeks ago for the very first time. It was horrible. I hated it and hope that I never have to do it again. I can definitely see why some parents wouldn't want to spank their children, but then again, sometimes it is all that works.

Some kids behave and never need a spanking. Some only need one occasionally. Some need them on a regular basis. Once they reach a certain age, they are no longer effective. Each parent must decide if and when to implement corporal punishment. Most kids, if they know you never will, tend to walk all over their parents. A good spanking once in awhile usually keeps that from happening. No one enjoys doing it, or at the very least should not enjoy it, but it certainly has its place and if done properly, is extremely effective in adjusting poor behavior.

Some kids behave and never need a spanking. Some only need one occasionally. Some need them on a regular basis. Once they reach a certain age, they are no longer effective. Each parent must decide if and when to implement corporal punishment. Most kids, if they know you never will, tend to walk all over their parents. A good spanking once in awhile usually keeps that from happening. No one enjoys doing it, or at the very least should not enjoy it, but it certainly has its place and if done properly, is extremely effective in adjusting poor behavior.

And why is it that you think it is no longer effective after a certain age? Is it because the child is then capable of fighting back? Do you only disapprove of "spanking" (which is really just a nice way of saying "assaulting") children, and not adults, because you're too cowardly to assault someone who is your physical equal or better?

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I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice. Can you guess what it is?

Some kids behave and never need a spanking. Some only need one occasionally. Some need them on a regular basis. Once they reach a certain age, they are no longer effective. Each parent must decide if and when to implement corporal punishment. Most kids, if they know you never will, tend to walk all over their parents. A good spanking once in awhile usually keeps that from happening. No one enjoys doing it, or at the very least should not enjoy it, but it certainly has its place and if done properly, is extremely effective in adjusting poor behavior.

And why is it that you think it is no longer effective after a certain age? Is it because the child is then capable of fighting back? Do you only disapprove of "spanking" (which is really just a nice way of saying "assaulting") children, and not adults, because you're too cowardly to assault someone who is your physical equal or better?

Some kids behave and never need a spanking. Some only need one occasionally. Some need them on a regular basis. Once they reach a certain age, they are no longer effective. Each parent must decide if and when to implement corporal punishment. Most kids, if they know you never will, tend to walk all over their parents. A good spanking once in awhile usually keeps that from happening. No one enjoys doing it, or at the very least should not enjoy it, but it certainly has its place and if done properly, is extremely effective in adjusting poor behavior.

And why is it that you think it is no longer effective after a certain age? Is it because the child is then capable of fighting back? Do you only disapprove of "spanking" (which is really just a nice way of saying "assaulting") children, and not adults, because you're too cowardly to assault someone who is your physical equal or better?

Boring! Moving on...

In other words, "I cannot really dispute the question, and so I will ignore it."

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I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice. Can you guess what it is?

Some kids behave and never need a spanking. Some only need one occasionally. Some need them on a regular basis. Once they reach a certain age, they are no longer effective. Each parent must decide if and when to implement corporal punishment. Most kids, if they know you never will, tend to walk all over their parents. A good spanking once in awhile usually keeps that from happening. No one enjoys doing it, or at the very least should not enjoy it, but it certainly has its place and if done properly, is extremely effective in adjusting poor behavior.

And why is it that you think it is no longer effective after a certain age? Is it because the child is then capable of fighting back?

No, they are quite capable of fighting back at the spanking age. After a certain age though you would have to move up to caning.

children, and not adults, because you're too cowardly to assault someone who is your physical equal or better?

Some adults call for the crap being beat out of them. But the one administering it has to be an equal, better won't do.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

And why is it that you think it is no longer effective after a certain age?

I don't know whether or not it is still "effective" after a certain age, but what I do know is that it becomes unnecessary after a certain age, when the child's cognitive abilities develop to the extent where having to use physical pain to prevent them from doing something harmful becomes unnecessary since you can simply just explain to them why the action in question is dangerous/harmful. But before they reach this age, physical discipline is good because it acts as a deterrent to keep them from doing certain things that would harm them, since even though they may not exactly be capable of understanding why they cannot do it at the moment, they will still refrain from doing it out of fear of getting spanked again.

I had to spank my little sister a few weeks ago for the very first time. It was horrible. I hated it and hope that I never have to do it again. I can definitely see why some parents wouldn't want to spank their children, but then again, sometimes it is all that works.

Past a certain age physical punishment only makes things worse. At least that's how I feel when my dad threatens to beat me as a 17 year old.

Little kids, though, sure.

Sorry to hear that. My father was/is the scariest guy when he is angry. There was an incident that he grabbed me by the arm for not completing a homework assignment in AP Lit. That memory still haunts me.

He's considerably calmed down now, although I am still intimidated by him. I'm a pretty sensitive guy which is probably because of a lack of a true father figure that disciplined. Hed be on business trips alot so I was around my mother alot more.

However I am happy how I turned out. I have alot more heart than most men out there. I have surprised alot of women by not being a jackass, but that's thanks to actually loving my mother. Most men who have women issues is a lack of love for their moms.

Anyway I would want to raise my kids so there never comes an opportunity for a spanking.

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“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

Past a certain age physical punishment only makes things worse. At least that's how I feel when my dad threatens to beat me as a 17 year old.

Little kids, though, sure.

Sorry to hear that. My father was/is the scariest guy when he is angry. There was an incident that he grabbed me by the arm for not completing a homework assignment in AP Lit. That memory still haunts me.

He's considerably calmed down now, although I am still intimidated by him. I'm a pretty sensitive guy which is probably because of a lack of a true father figure that disciplined. Hed be on business trips alot so I was around my mother alot more.

However I am happy how I turned out. I have alot more heart than most men out there. I have surprised alot of women by not being a jackass, but that's thanks to actually loving my mother. Most men who have women issues is a lack of love for their moms.

Anyway I would want to raise my kids so there never comes an opportunity for a spanking.

I hope you can, but don't ignore spanking completely. As a last resort is the usual means. Kids know the difference between correction and beating. My father hardly ever spanked me, but I knew he would and when he did, he made sure I didn't want another. I never feared him, but I knew clearly where the line was drawn.

And why is it that you think it is no longer effective after a certain age?

I don't know whether or not it is still "effective" after a certain age, but what I do know is that it becomes unnecessary after a certain age, when the child's cognitive abilities develop to the extent where having to use physical pain to prevent them from doing something harmful becomes unnecessary since you can simply just explain to them why the action in question is dangerous/harmful. But before they reach this age, physical discipline is good because it acts as a deterrent to keep them from doing certain things that would harm them, since even though they may not exactly be capable of understanding why they cannot do it at the moment, they will still refrain from doing it out of fear of getting spanked again.

I had to spank my little sister a few weeks ago for the very first time. It was horrible. I hated it and hope that I never have to do it again. I can definitely see why some parents wouldn't want to spank their children, but then again, sometimes it is all that works.

Some kids behave and never need a spanking. Some only need one occasionally. Some need them on a regular basis. Once they reach a certain age, they are no longer effective. Each parent must decide if and when to implement corporal punishment. Most kids, if they know you never will, tend to walk all over their parents. A good spanking once in awhile usually keeps that from happening. No one enjoys doing it, or at the very least should not enjoy it, but it certainly has its place and if done properly, is extremely effective in adjusting poor behavior.

And why is it that you think it is no longer effective after a certain age? Is it because the child is then capable of fighting back? Do you only disapprove of "spanking" (which is really just a nice way of saying "assaulting") children, and not adults, because you're too cowardly to assault someone who is your physical equal or better?

Boring! Moving on...

In other words, "I cannot really dispute the question, and so I will ignore it."

Past a certain age physical punishment only makes things worse. At least that's how I feel when my dad threatens to beat me as a 17 year old.

Little kids, though, sure.

Sorry to hear that. My father was/is the scariest guy when he is angry. There was an incident that he grabbed me by the arm for not completing a homework assignment in AP Lit. That memory still haunts me.

He's considerably calmed down now, although I am still intimidated by him. I'm a pretty sensitive guy which is probably because of a lack of a true father figure that disciplined. Hed be on business trips alot so I was around my mother alot more.

However I am happy how I turned out. I have alot more heart than most men out there. I have surprised alot of women by not being a jackass, but that's thanks to actually loving my mother. Most men who have women issues is a lack of love for their moms.

Anyway I would want to raise my kids so there never comes an opportunity for a spanking.

Oh please, you're a bunch of babies. My father would scream at me from the top of his lungs when I was a little kid and bust stuff around the house, he still threatens to kick me out whenever he's angry at me. Suck it up, until you've had to search the car as a teenager for your own father's dope because your mother was too sad to do it on her own, you have no reason to complain.

Not quite. A good number of men who have "women issues" have (had) an overbearing, domineering mother.

Ain't that sort of the same thing? Since if you had an overbearing, domineering mother, you would probably develop a lack of love for her? Either way, I picked up the horrible habit from my mother of suppressing and suppressing my emotions until I could no longer contain them, reason being that when I was younger, I was afraid that if I expressed my negative emotions, that I would just cause her more stress, and I already knew that she was obviously under a lot of stress with dad and all.

Past a certain age physical punishment only makes things worse. At least that's how I feel when my dad threatens to beat me as a 17 year old.

Little kids, though, sure.

Sorry to hear that. My father was/is the scariest guy when he is angry. There was an incident that he grabbed me by the arm for not completing a homework assignment in AP Lit. That memory still haunts me.

He's considerably calmed down now, although I am still intimidated by him. I'm a pretty sensitive guy which is probably because of a lack of a true father figure that disciplined. Hed be on business trips alot so I was around my mother alot more.

However I am happy how I turned out. I have alot more heart than most men out there. I have surprised alot of women by not being a jackass, but that's thanks to actually loving my mother. Most men who have women issues is a lack of love for their moms.

Anyway I would want to raise my kids so there never comes an opportunity for a spanking.

Oh please, you're a bunch of babies. My father would scream at me from the top of his lungs when I was a little kid and bust stuff around the house, he still threatens to kick me out whenever he's angry at me. Suck it up, until you've had to search the car as a teenager for your own father's dope because your mother was too sad to do it on her own, you have no reason to complain.

Past a certain age physical punishment only makes things worse. At least that's how I feel when my dad threatens to beat me as a 17 year old.

Little kids, though, sure.

Sorry to hear that. My father was/is the scariest guy when he is angry. There was an incident that he grabbed me by the arm for not completing a homework assignment in AP Lit. That memory still haunts me.

He's considerably calmed down now, although I am still intimidated by him. I'm a pretty sensitive guy which is probably because of a lack of a true father figure that disciplined. Hed be on business trips alot so I was around my mother alot more.

However I am happy how I turned out. I have alot more heart than most men out there. I have surprised alot of women by not being a jackass, but that's thanks to actually loving my mother. Most men who have women issues is a lack of love for their moms.

Anyway I would want to raise my kids so there never comes an opportunity for a spanking.

Oh please, you're a bunch of babies. My father would scream at me from the top of his lungs when I was a little kid and bust stuff around the house, he still threatens to kick me out whenever he's angry at me. Suck it up, until you've had to search the car as a teenager for your own father's dope because your mother was too sad to do it on her own, you have no reason to complain.

That was asinine.

James, just because we haven't had it as bad as you doesn't mean it doesn't have emotional effects that require more than just a "suck it up."

« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 02:09:12 PM by William »

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Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

If I've amounted to anything, it's probably been in spite of rather than because of physical discipline as a child. The holy fathers who speak of raising children, as opposed to those who misinterpret the Scriptures in order to justify themselves, emphasize the good example and prayers of parents as being more necessary and effective than lectures and physical discipline. Corrective words and actions also need to be separated from anger lest they produce worse results. In short, before a spanking, parents need first to employ other means. That said, physical discipline may still be necessary in some cases.

Very well put.

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I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

St Augustine on the injustice of punishing children for their idleness:

Quote

"For I did not, O Lord, lack memory or capacity, for, by thy will, I possessed enough for my age. However, my mind was absorbed only in play, and I was punished for this by those who were doing the same things themselves. But the idling of our elders is called business; the idling of boys, though quite like it, is punished by those same elders, and no one pities either the boys or the men. For will any common sense observer agree that I was rightly punished as a boy for playing ball--just because this hindered me from learning more quickly those lessons by means of which, as a man, I could play at more shameful games? And did he by whom I was beaten do anything different? When he was worsted in some small controversy with a fellow teacher, he was more tormented by anger and envy than I was when beaten by a playmate in the ball game."

St Augustine on the injustice of punishing children for their idleness:

Quote

"For I did not, O Lord, lack memory or capacity, for, by thy will, I possessed enough for my age. However, my mind was absorbed only in play, and I was punished for this by those who were doing the same things themselves. But the idling of our elders is called business; the idling of boys, though quite like it, is punished by those same elders, and no one pities either the boys or the men. For will any common sense observer agree that I was rightly punished as a boy for playing ball--just because this hindered me from learning more quickly those lessons by means of which, as a man, I could play at more shameful games? And did he by whom I was beaten do anything different? When he was worsted in some small controversy with a fellow teacher, he was more tormented by anger and envy than I was when beaten by a playmate in the ball game."

Excerpt from Confessions, Chapter IX, Book One (A.D. 398)

This is one very specific instance. Besides, when do kids have time to be idle when they have school, homework, soccer practice, torturing small animals in the basement, torturing less popular kids on facebook, playing xbox, and controled supervised playdates to be doing?

In the same chapter, St Augustine compares the brutality of flogging and abusing adults as punishment with the brutality of corporal punishment of children, and the effect of pain and intense fear it has on them:

Quote

"Is there anyone, O Lord, with a spirit so great, who cleaves to thee with such steadfast affection (or is there even a kind of obtuseness that has the same effect)--is there any man who, by cleaving devoutly to thee, is endowed with so great a courage that he can regard indifferently those racks and hooks and other torture weapons from which men throughout the world pray so fervently to be spared; and can they scorn those who so greatly fear these torments, just as my parents were amused at the torments with which our teachers punished us boys? For we were no less afraid of our pains, nor did we beseech thee less to escape them."

In the same chapter, St Augustine compares the brutality of flogging and abusing adults as punishment with the brutality of corporal punishment of children, and the effect of pain and intense fear it has on them:

Quote

"Is there anyone, O Lord, with a spirit so great, who cleaves to thee with such steadfast affection (or is there even a kind of obtuseness that has the same effect)--is there any man who, by cleaving devoutly to thee, is endowed with so great a courage that he can regard indifferently those racks and hooks and other torture weapons from which men throughout the world pray so fervently to be spared; and can they scorn those who so greatly fear these torments, just as my parents were amused at the torments with which our teachers punished us boys? For we were no less afraid of our pains, nor did we beseech thee less to escape them."

It's perspective and how it's implemented. Should kids be punished? Yes, if its necessary. Should they be beaten? No. Beating isn't done for correction with love. Corporal punishment, when done correctly, is.

I once knew a dog breeder who, when the puppies were first let out of the house, would take each one to the paved road and rub their paw pads until they were raw. Most people would be horrified at this, as I was until she explained why. She had lost many dogs on the road by getting run over. She loved each one as a family member. Since she started the paw rub, none of them ever went out into the road even if they got out of the house on their own.

I don't suggest rubbing kids feet on the road, but a good old fashioned spanking does wonders to keep them out of the street. Not a beating out of anger, but a corrective action done for the sake of the child.

Spanking is not abuse. Beating them up is. I wish people would learn the difference.

All correction of children has the potential to become abusive, whether physical or otherwise. You should not listen to any person who suggests that physical correction is ipso facto abusive (and, personally, I sincerely doubt that children should have the same rights to bodily autonomy and non-interference as do adults).

He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.Proverbs 13:24

Do we have to interpret the verse literaly?

Is all discipline taught through beating with a stick? No. "The rod" means instruction, and sometimes instruction is difficult--parent and child go through what they would rather avoid for the greater good of the child attaining to self-discipline to do well. The alternative is that as a parent one is lax and one's children turn into the sons of Eli.

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Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

All correction of children has the potential to become abusive, whether physical or otherwise.

This is an excellent point.

I was spanked as a kid (not often- I was a pretty good kid), but I think the way my mom handled spankings in our house was good. She never spanked us in front of others (which could be humiliating, I imagine). We always went to a separate room. She never spanked us when she was angry, even if that meant we had to sit on the couch for a few minutes to wait for it. We always talked first, to make sure we understood why we were getting spanked, and then it was quick and over with... then we would pray together. And we didn't get spanked for every offense. Anyway, all that to say- it was within certain parameters and always consistent. I don't look back on my childhood with baggage or negative feelings about the way discipline was done in our house.

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"For this God is our God forever and ever; He will be our guide, even to the end." Psalm 48:14

Forgot to add- as for myself personally, I don't like to spank. It just isn't my parenting style. So far we've been pretty lucky in that other methods have been working so far, but man... 3 is an exhausting age.

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"For this God is our God forever and ever; He will be our guide, even to the end." Psalm 48:14

So... Pertinent to the conversation, I went through an interesting situation over the last few days with my 3.5 yr. old. She is smart for her age and has an older sister. I attribute her ability to grasp language and cognitive thought to this, but I could just have a super smart kid on my hands... I digress. She hit her sister the other day (a rare occurrence) and got a spanking for it. She was very resistant and begged for not getting one, very dramatic. The next day she told her mom that she wanted to be in heaven with God instead of being here and getting yelled at and spanked. To be honest, her mother and I both grew up in abusive households, so we both have issues with constantly questioning our parenting and struggle through with prayer and attentiveness to be positive and control our reactions.

So her mother and I prayed about it and decided not to spank our kids anymore. We spoke to our daughter and asked her forgiveness, agreeing with her that we would all do everything we could to have a happy home. She agreed to try to express herself better and not hit her sister. I truly believe that God has shown us through our own daughter, that we need to work on doing things differently.

This is hard for us and I ask for all of your prayers as we move through this in faith that our Lord will teach us.

He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.Proverbs 13:24

Do we have to interpret the verse literaly?

Is all discipline taught through beating with a stick? No. "The rod" means instruction, and sometimes instruction is difficult--parent and child go through what they would rather avoid for the greater good of the child attaining to self-discipline to do well. The alternative is that as a parent one is lax and one's children turn into the sons of Eli.

I agree. The rod is only an image.

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«One cannot understand the least thing about modern civilization if one does not first realize that it is a universal conspiracy to destroy the inner life.» (George Bernanos)

It's perspective and how it's implemented. Should kids be punished? Yes, if its necessary. Should they be beaten? No. Beating isn't done for correction with love. Corporal punishment, when done correctly, is.

I once knew a dog breeder who, when the puppies were first let out of the house, would take each one to the paved road and rub their paw pads until they were raw. Most people would be horrified at this, as I was until she explained why. She had lost many dogs on the road by getting run over. She loved each one as a family member. Since she started the paw rub, none of them ever went out into the road even if they got out of the house on their own.

I don't suggest rubbing kids feet on the road, but a good old fashioned spanking does wonders to keep them out of the street. Not a beating out of anger, but a corrective action done for the sake of the child.

Spanking is not abuse. Beating them up is. I wish people would learn the difference.

Yes, rubbing puppies' paws raw is animal abuse, especially because she could have gotten a fence or kept them indoors. What would the dog whisperer on TV say about this?

As St Augustine pointed out, adults make the same kind of mistakes as kids. Would you like an "old fashioned spanking" with "old fashioned" instruments until you are crying?This is messed up.

It's perspective and how it's implemented. Should kids be punished? Yes, if its necessary. Should they be beaten? No. Beating isn't done for correction with love. Corporal punishment, when done correctly, is.

I once knew a dog breeder who, when the puppies were first let out of the house, would take each one to the paved road and rub their paw pads until they were raw. Most people would be horrified at this, as I was until she explained why. She had lost many dogs on the road by getting run over. She loved each one as a family member. Since she started the paw rub, none of them ever went out into the road even if they got out of the house on their own.

I don't suggest rubbing kids feet on the road, but a good old fashioned spanking does wonders to keep them out of the street. Not a beating out of anger, but a corrective action done for the sake of the child.

Spanking is not abuse. Beating them up is. I wish people would learn the difference.

Yes, rubbing puppies' paws raw is animal abuse, especially because she could have gotten a fence or kept them indoors. What would the dog whisperer on TV say about this?

As St Augustine pointed out, adults make the same kind of mistakes as kids. Would you like an "old fashioned spanking" with "old fashioned" instruments until you are crying?This is messed up.

So... Pertinent to the conversation, I went through an interesting situation over the last few days with my 3.5 yr. old. She is smart for her age and has an older sister. I attribute her ability to grasp language and cognitive thought to this, but I could just have a super smart kid on my hands... I digress. She hit her sister the other day (a rare occurrence) and got a spanking for it. She was very resistant and begged for not getting one, very dramatic. The next day she told her mom that she wanted to be in heaven with God instead of being here and getting yelled at and spanked. To be honest, her mother and I both grew up in abusive households, so we both have issues with constantly questioning our parenting and struggle through with prayer and attentiveness to be positive and control our reactions.

So her mother and I prayed about it and decided not to spank our kids anymore. We spoke to our daughter and asked her forgiveness, agreeing with her that we would all do everything we could to have a happy home. She agreed to try to express herself better and not hit her sister. I truly believe that God has shown us through our own daughter, that we need to work on doing things differently.

This is hard for us and I ask for all of your prayers as we move through this in faith that our Lord will teach us.

You do have a smart daughter. I always thought up extravagant ways to get out of spankings, like asking my granma to get me a German Shepherd so I could sick it on my grandpa, or better yet, that it would snow so I could build a snowman to get him. Unfortunately it was July so that plan fell through.

It's perspective and how it's implemented. Should kids be punished? Yes, if its necessary. Should they be beaten? No. Beating isn't done for correction with love. Corporal punishment, when done correctly, is.

I once knew a dog breeder who, when the puppies were first let out of the house, would take each one to the paved road and rub their paw pads until they were raw. Most people would be horrified at this, as I was until she explained why. She had lost many dogs on the road by getting run over. She loved each one as a family member. Since she started the paw rub, none of them ever went out into the road even if they got out of the house on their own.

I don't suggest rubbing kids feet on the road, but a good old fashioned spanking does wonders to keep them out of the street. Not a beating out of anger, but a corrective action done for the sake of the child.

Spanking is not abuse. Beating them up is. I wish people would learn the difference.

Yes, rubbing puppies' paws raw is animal abuse, especially because she could have gotten a fence or kept them indoors. What would the dog whisperer on TV say about this?

As St Augustine pointed out, adults make the same kind of mistakes as kids. Would you like an "old fashioned spanking" with "old fashioned" instruments until you are crying?This is messed up.

Regardless of deniomination, or religion. this man was once more correct.We all sin the same way. But in different times. Also, I have yet to see any 5 year old for instance, raping someone, like many adults do.

It's perspective and how it's implemented. Should kids be punished? Yes, if its necessary. Should they be beaten? No. Beating isn't done for correction with love. Corporal punishment, when done correctly, is.

I once knew a dog breeder who, when the puppies were first let out of the house, would take each one to the paved road and rub their paw pads until they were raw. Most people would be horrified at this, as I was until she explained why. She had lost many dogs on the road by getting run over. She loved each one as a family member. Since she started the paw rub, none of them ever went out into the road even if they got out of the house on their own.

I don't suggest rubbing kids feet on the road, but a good old fashioned spanking does wonders to keep them out of the street. Not a beating out of anger, but a corrective action done for the sake of the child.

Spanking is not abuse. Beating them up is. I wish people would learn the difference.

Yes, rubbing puppies' paws raw is animal abuse, especially because she could have gotten a fence or kept them indoors. What would the dog whisperer on TV say about this?

As St Augustine pointed out, adults make the same kind of mistakes as kids. Would you like an "old fashioned spanking" with "old fashioned" instruments until you are crying?This is messed up.

Regardless of deniomination, or religion. this man was once more correct.We all sin the same way. But in different times. Also, I have yet to see any 5 year old for instance, raping someone, like many adults do.

Ever heard of a place called "The Congo". It's kinda like Neverneverland in that kids kill and rape and never grow old!