Welcome to the Piano World Piano ForumsOver 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers
(it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Just thought I'd share my news, I'm off to a piano shop this weekend, first time I'm actually going to get to try out some acoustic pianos, I'm dead excited.

I'm hoping to come away with something that ill fall in love with, even though my budget is low. They have a used Yamaha U3 I'd like to see (1984) and I'd like to try out their range of Brodmann pianos (uprights). From what I can tell their range is Yamaha, Brodmann and their own brand 'Venables & Sons'.

I've decided that, after a year of lessons and recently passing grade 2 (I know, long ways to go yet) learning piano is a keeper and will be selling all my camera gear to help fund the purchase. For some reason I'm just starting to feel like there is something lacking in my digital piano (cheap-ish Yamaha DGX640) I may sell that on too (wife has a DP I can use for quiet time).

Anyway, I'm probably rambling now, so if anybody has any tips etc I'd be pleased to hear them.

That's very exciting Neil. If you are buying a 2nd hand, leave enough in your budget to pay for an assessment from an independent technician.Knabes have a reputation for being quite affordable but with an acceptable sound.

Oh how fun!! My advice is this: Leave your checkbook and credit cards at home, so you won't be tempted into making an immediate decision. Bring a notepad and take notes about any serious contender, including writing down the serial number so you can make sure you're buying the piano you tried out and liked. If you encounter anything that concerns you about a particular piano you like (weird buzz, out of tune note, squeaky pedal), tell the owner and see if he/she can fix it before you commit to purchasing it.

Don't fall for any stories about another family coming back "tomorrow" to buy a particular piano you might have shown interest in. And don't agree to the asking price; in the vast majority of cases, the first price uttered is just the starting point for negotiations.

Try to play snippets of piece that use the range of the keyboard (and dynamic variation, too). Is it hard to get a good pp?

I know that I got a much better sense of differences among pianos and what I liked in a piano the more I shopped. Take your time, visit as many stores as you comfortably can, and play as many pianos as you can.

Thanks for the replies. I guess my biggest obstacle is the fact that I'm such a beginner and won't be able to play anything like what will be needed to tell if the piano is right. Another issue is that piano shops are few and far between around here so trying out pianos from other stores probably isn't going to happen unless I can manage to fit in a long journey, which isn't likely.

I think I may feel quite embarrassed by my playing abilities and lack of piano knowledge, just hope there aren't too many people within earshot of me.

Thanks for the replies. I guess my biggest obstacle is the fact that I'm such a beginner and won't be able to play anything like what will be needed to tell if the piano is right. Another issue is that piano shops are few and far between around here so trying out pianos from other stores probably isn't going to happen unless I can manage to fit in a long journey, which isn't likely.

I think I may feel quite embarrassed by my playing abilities and lack of piano knowledge, just hope there aren't too many people within earshot of me.

Neil.

I am sure someone from the store would be happy to play for you. I had the person at my store play on a few different pianos for me. She played professionally so it made sense.

That's a great idea, thanks, but how do I know if it feels right for me?

It's funny, recently I've started to prefer playing on my wife's DP, an older Technics model, but I'd never be able to explain what it is I prefer, it's not a sound thing as I find it sounds very artificial, (not sure if that's the right word) but the pressing of keys feels better than mine.One thing I have noticed is that I really struggle with switching to the acoustic my teacher has for my lessons, I just cannot for the life of me play it soft!

Will I just know what's right for me even with my VERY limited playing abilities? Will I discover as my playing (hopefully) improves, that the piano I bought is no longer right for me? I know these questions can't really be answered, I'm just airing the thoughts going through my head, apologies.

That's a great idea, thanks, but how do I know if it feels right for me?

It's funny, recently I've started to prefer playing on my wife's DP, an older Technics model, but I'd never be able to explain what it is I prefer, it's not a sound thing as I find it sounds very artificial, (not sure if that's the right word) but the pressing of keys feels better than mine.One thing I have noticed is that I really struggle with switching to the acoustic my teacher has for my lessons, I just cannot for the life of me play it soft!

Will I just know what's right for me even with my VERY limited playing abilities? Will I discover as my playing (hopefully) improves, that the piano I bought is no longer right for me? I know these questions can't really be answered, I'm just airing the thoughts going through my head, apologies.

Oh, definitely get a feel for it yourself. I did as well. However, the person in the store was able to just get "beast mode" on the piano The combination of how it felt when I played, and the sound of what it could be when I am a better pianist enabled me to make a good decision. I hope you enjoy piano shopping. It really is fun! Although, I am not currently looking I enjoy visiting the stores online and in real life...

As far as finding what you need. I found mine at the first store I went to. I did not purchase on the first day but did some research. I was going for something in a lower price range for a multitude of reasons. I found a great piano! I just wouldn't purchase on day one... give yourself time to reflect.

I think I may feel quite embarrassed by my playing abilities and lack of piano knowledge, just hope there aren't too many people within earshot of me.

That's why I suggested playing only snippets of pieces. That way when you have a memory lapse or make a mistake (and you will, given the circumstances), it won't be so obvious when you stop, because you will have been starting and stopping all along.

But don't let your embarrassment keep you from trying out the pianos. Yes, having the salesperson play would be helpful in letting you get a good idea of how the piano sounds musically, but there's no substitute for trying it out for yourself. For example, I discovered--to my surprise--that the texture of the keys themselves mattered a lot to me. Some pianos (good ones) had keys that felt way too "plasticky" (for want of a better term), and I just didn't like them. I wouldn't have known that if I hadn't sat down and played a lot of models. Ditto for the pedal action.

And you don't have to worry about what the salespeople are thinking. They have heard it ALL, believe me. As long as you avoid Chopsticks and Fur Elise, you'll be fine.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that it would be "wrong" to buy a piano the same day, but I will say this: I've read an awful lot of piano shopping stories throughout my time on the forum, and while I have seen many stories where people bought impetuously and then regretted it, I've never seen a story where somebody said "I sure regret my decision to wait and go back a second time and play the piano before buying it."

Keep in mind that how a piano sounds in a store will be different from where the piano will actually reside.....acoustics and all. If you can tell the differences between sound and touch on digitals you will feel the difference on the acoustics. Gently press. No pushing.

Thanks Monica & rada, wise words that I will take on board. I'll do my best to not buy on first visit, take a little time to reflect. The store isn't that far from where I live so its more than do-able.

My wife will be coming with me, she plays a little too, so ill get her to play a little on them too.

I get what you mean about the key texture Monica, I notice it between the 3 pianos I use- the two digitals at home and my teachers acoustic.

My wife will be coming with me, she plays a little too, so ill get her to play a little on them too.

Objective ears you can trust. My wife doesn't play but was happy to go over budget on a more expensive model than planned. A piano is a long term investment (so price difference is less than it seems) and she needs to enjoy hearing it too.

Start at the most expensive range in the shop(s), the top end grands.

Work your way down to the baby grands and note the serious drop off in sound and bass resonance.

By this time your fingers should have some idea of what to expect as you do the same on the uprights. Start at the unaffordable Steinway uprights (or whatever the store tops out with) and work your way down through the new uprights before moving to the second hand models.Don't skip a model, even it's yet another U3. Play every piano in the shop at least once and give it's due opportunity to impress and stop early only when you know it won't.

I urge you to continue with the top end digitals and sleeping before you make your second run through.

Stop when the quality drop off is noticeable for that range (grands, new uprights, used uprights, digitals) and short-list the four competitive models before considering your budget.

Bring some sheet music if you don't have an extensive repertoire. You needn't play more than a couple of bars of any piece. You need a range of speeds, dynamics and touches with both cantabile melodies and a few chords. Even playing scales or chords will tell you all you need to know about the responsiveness of the keys and the quality of the sound well enough to shortlist.

Compare the range of dynamic contrast achievable at the top, bottom and middle of the keyboard and how easy or difficult it is to maintain evenness at each level. Don't be afraid of annoying anyone in the shops over the road. You need to know what FFF sounds like on each instrument.

You need to know what happens at PPP, too and how easy it is to control.

Compare the length of sustain at each of the three main areas of the keyboard (use your watch).

Don't play the digitals on anything less than full volume. They really don't respond well below full whack except on headphones. Only listen to digitals on your own headphones and only as a last exercise before shortlisting them even if you're intending to play mostly on headphones. Most digitals will be flattered by them but if you're planning on improving your technique you should seriously minimise constant headphone or low volume practise.

You may only get the chance to play properly on speakers on a Saturday afternoon but the more you do the more you'll want to so you'll need an instrument that won't disappoint.

zrtf90, thanks for the lengthy reply, plenty of food for thought. Wouldn't it appear a bit cheeky for me to be playing the pianos way above my budget (I told them my budget over the phone). I don't think I'll extend my search to include a digital, as its definitely an acoustic I'm after, a better digital can come later if needed.

You say you're just back from one, how did you get on? See anything you liked?

I don't think it would appear cheeky at all, Neil. I told the shop yesterday that I was looking for a digital but that an acoustic might come later (after I retire - you never know). I was invited to try anything and everything I liked - basically given free rein of the shop.

The retailer will accommodate people who may not even intend to buy - that's how you sell pianos!

If you're on a budget it's even more important to know where your chosen model comes in the range of options and what amount of money accommodates the differences in sound, feel, appearance and that je-ne-sais-quoi of sitting at and playing a nine to twelve footer.

I had intended to choose between a CA-65, CLP-470 and HP-505. I had a ball on Bechstein and Steinway grands, worked down to Bostons, Kawais, Yamahas and used models dropping down to August Förster - still not bad but not desirable.

There was a Steinway upright, U3's to U1's and Kawai K3's and K5's and a good selection of used models. The Yamaha B and P series and some of the used models were clearly inferior but the U3's with the lid open are hard to walk away from - one day, Neil, one day!

An acoustic for the moment is untenable. The footprint, while still small, is big enough compared to a digital that I wouldn't be able to sit comfortably in the little alcove where I practise and my son and I can shift the Clavinova, without taking it apart, into the lounge for when the lads come round with their guitars, whistles and what-have-you's and swap it for the TV.

The soundboard on the CA-95 made the Kawai an obvious choice for both myself and my wife. The keyboard was as good as any I tried in the shop and any I remember having played, the sound was better than the smaller uprights and with 135 watts was a match in volume for the bigger models. On my Audio-Technica MTH-50 headphones it responded well to small nuances and I was kept occupied for the best part of an hour. We were over four hours in the shop. The overall playing experience was a match for anything else I tried that day.

I tried again the best of the uprights and grands before I signed the dotted line on the CA-95. I was better able to haggle with my wife there and we were all three happy with the final deal.

open the lid (ask shop owner before) before trying to play. Particularly on grands. With uprights, opening the top lid has much less effect.

Rely on your ears and feel.

Play yourself.

Play at least one snippet without pedal at all. With pedal it probably will sound fine if it sounds ok without pedal.

Don't play too long, if it sounds nice it will show in the first seconds already, and if not it will just tire your ears.

If it sounds ok, also check the piano looks such as scratches, dust, cracks, lacquer quality etc.

The feeling that the shop owner gives you is also relevant. Is he pushing you towards buying? Is he making useful suggestions? Does he give you time to try his pianos without breathing in your neck? Does he seem reliable?

Make notes on all these points, for later comparison after you have visited a large number of shops.

Visit as many shops as you can and play all acoustics they have to develop your ears and to get a sense what you can get for your money and where you want to make concessions.

Don't buy or even hint that you're ready for buying this first time.

If you even want to look at DPs, start at their most expensive one. If that one does not cut it, you probably can skip the rest as well.

>Wouldn't it appear a bit cheeky for me to be playing the pianos way above my budget (I told them my budget over the phone).

Not at all. Trying the top gives you an idea of a "golden standard" for that brand - how that brand thinks a perfect piano should sound and play. And you need that to properly judge the concessions they made on the cheaper pianos that they build.

The danger of playing pianos waaaaay over your budget is that they will almost always (and should!) sound a lot better, and you run the risk of feeling a bit let down or like you're "settling" when you buy a piano that IS in your budget. And a new piano is way too much fun and reason for celebration to risk feeling let down.

I do, however, think it is very beneficial to play pianos that are somewhat over your budget, for the reasons wouter mentions, and another extremely important reason: Many of us have decided to revise our budgets upwards after seeing what can be gained by doing so.

Wouldn't it appear a bit cheeky for me to be playing the pianos way above my budget (I told them my budget over the phone).

Not at all. You are in the drivers seat on this purchase and should take every advantage you can. It will help you to have that sound and feel of a high end piano in your experience.

A few other tips I would stress.

1. give yourself time to look for a piano. You will likely be playing it for a long time. Several months and trying out dozens or even a hundred pianos is not unreasonalbe.

2. do not listen to ANYTHING that the salesperson has to say. Trust your ears and fingers to tell you what you like.

3. Always assume the sticker price has nothing to do with what you might actually have to pay for it. Download the Piano Buyer (left side of this screen) and read it. Pay close attention to the difference between MSRP, SMP, and street price as described in their Acoustic Piano Buying and Pricing chapter.

4. if buying used.... - eyeball the keys. are they all level, do any stick out further than the others slightly? - play every key. Do they all feel similar or are some oddly different? - grab a key and try to wiggle it side to side. If you get a lot of lateral movement there may be repairs needed to the action. - once you are serious about a piano, you have to decide about having a tech look it over before you buy. Strongly recommended (no matter what the store people say).

Once you have a make and model in mind, the piano forum on this site is a great place to ask questions.

Just thought I'd share my news, I'm off to a piano shop this weekend, first time I'm actually going to get to try out some acoustic pianos, I'm dead excited.

I'm hoping to come away with something that ill fall in love with, even though my budget is low. They have a used Yamaha U3 I'd like to see (1984) and I'd like to try out their range of Brodmann pianos (uprights). From what I can tell their range is Yamaha, Brodmann and their own brand 'Venables & Sons'.

I've decided that, after a year of lessons and recently passing grade 2 (I know, long ways to go yet) learning piano is a keeper and will be selling all my camera gear to help fund the purchase. For some reason I'm just starting to feel like there is something lacking in my digital piano (cheap-ish Yamaha DGX640) I may sell that on too (wife has a DP I can use for quiet time).

Anyway, I'm probably rambling now, so if anybody has any tips etc I'd be pleased to hear them.

Neil.

Woohoo! I know what you mean about something lacking in the DP. The more I play acoustics the more my DP sounds and feels digital. My advice would be to buy the piano you love! Yay.

I promise I did listen to all the great advice you guys gave me, but, I did come away from the shop with a purchase made.

I played practically every piano there, including grands (oooo they were lovely), and played as much of what I could (which is a pathetic amount to be honest).

I was able to identify the differences between them, the touch, tone etc. I went there believing it would be a Yamaha model I'd purchase, but for some reason none of them did it for me-U1, U3, P121, U7 and more, not bashing the brand, just didn't feel or sound right for me.

I narrowed it down to two pianos, the Brodmann PE130 and their house brand Venables & Son Custom 133. I took a lunch break to think things over, then went back to play both again. Will Venables was fantastic in explaining all about the pianos, albeit I understood probably 10% of what he said, my piano knowledge is slim to none.

After all the considerations, I purchased the Venables & Son Custom-133, it seemed to have the edge over the Brodmann in terms of........fullness? The bass seemed a bit richer, and the higher notes clearer. Very well made, a slow closing fall board and a (forgive incorrect terminology) front piece, where the music stand is, that opens a little for sound to come out. Ha, that's a bad description.

I wish I could have gone to more shops, played more pianos, but its just not doable for me, and I really haven't been playing long enough to know what it is I'm looking for, but I do think I've found a piano ill love.

A bonus with buying from Venables & Son, other than being a fantastic shop, with excellent service, I can, at a later date, upgrade to another piano (grand?) and will only lose the V.A.T on the price on the upright when I trade in.

The piano should be delivered, with a bit of luck, on Tuesday morning, can't wait.A free bench and first tuning sweetened the deal, as did a nice sum off the asking price.

Thanks for everyone's help and advice, so much appreciated, just hate that it seems I ignored you all, and a massive thank you to everyone at Venables & Son Piano shop, Ringwood, Hampshire.

Enjoy your piano!One year ago I choose mine, a 30 year-old Apollo upright (it's a little known Japanese brand) and I enjoy it every time a play/practice on it. I use to say it has a soul (my DP doesn't).

torquenale, I understand what you mean when you talk about soul, as that's what made me realise the shortcomings of my digital, it just doesn't feel 'alive'.

wouter, I do agree that it would have been best to hold of on purchasing, but in my defence, I'm not so sure there was much risk involved. The piano sounds and feels great, the dealer has a great reputation and the piano is brand new. I'm simply not experienced enough to notice subtle differences between certain pianos. I did feel and hear enough to know that the one I bought will be good for me, certainly good enough to get me further along the path of learning.

When/if I reach a stage where I want to upgrade (there's a grand with my name on it somewhere) and I better understand what it is in a piano I prefer then I will certainly use the advice given on these forums, as it could be the piano I stay with. The one I have just bought wont be my last piano purchase.

I hope I'm making sense and don't appear to be making excuses because I do value the help and advice of all you,great forum members.

Some people agonise over a house purchase and live in it a good while before they realise they've made a wrong decision.

I knew on our first date that my wife was the one and I proposed on the third. She's still the one.

If you're happy with your new piano now, enjoy it.

When and if it no longer appeals as much, be grateful for the development and experience it's given you. In monetary terms it may owe you nothing.

Chris Venables makes good pianos. Like a handmade guitar it may not sell for as high a price but is typically worth more than a production Gibson. If you like your piano now, keep it well maintained and there's no reason why your grandchildren shouldn't like it either.

Congratulations!.... I don't know diddily about pianos. I do know this. There are people out there...like the custom furniture manufacturers.... they love what they are doing. In piano's, they may not have a name like Steinway...but they sure put as much heart into manufacturing as Steinway. The best piano is the one you love.