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Robert, I wonder if a light sanding on the outside of the copper winding with an 800 grit would have the same effect on a longer winding as just shortening it. I remember a tech years ago who got a poorly made replacement bass string to match better doing this. Personally, I'd be worried about the tiny particles clogging up the coils or something bad like that coming out of it.

A443, your method seems reasonable and I too look at how the strings fit in with the octave. I presume another real issue would arise if an ETD user were to blindly match a target partial with errant inharmonicity, and then waste time trying to compensate the good unison to it. Determining which string is the best fit to begin with in this case would be the first order.

You can massage the termination so to raise the level of fundamental, needle the hammer on the side it raise that partial,so to dampen it more, change the shape if necessary.

The problem is generally that the energy of the 2 strings hardly can match the one of the neighbors.

I usually send back the 2 strings to the bass winder, and he send me 2 new strings for free, as this is supposed not to happen with a decent winding job (I ask my basses at Hellerbass and dont recall any matching problem so this is attainable, even if it happened that a slight difference occur in the end of the wrapping (1 2 mm difference and really not often, can be due to my measurements too) There is a goal on the distance from bridge and distance from agrafe once the wire is tuned and at pitch (the numbers escapes me but I seem to recall it is 8 mm and 25 mm, I will put exacts numbers asap)

Well it does not help much. What I think is that once the energy regulation focus on the fundamental (or the 2nd partial) its energy tend to "straighten" the rest of the spectra, so in those situations I focus mainly on the way the energy is felt and heard from note to note, hoping that the mismatch will stay unnoticed....

A solution can be to make the neighboring notes "turn" a tad in the same way than the bad one... I dont like that one but that is the same as working with old wire and so so hammer mating, where adding a decoupling between left center and right plain wire gives opportunity to even the tone from note to note, adsorbing the defects and hiding them in the coupling.

Tuning historical instruments is often the same process, no purity availeable, forget about hearing the tone in front of the piano and try to hear what happens a few meters from there..

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It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills

@KaminIt is so refreshing to read technicians, like yourself, who are clearly driven to make improvements with the piano--wherever possible. You should be applauded for your ability to keep an open mind with your own work, and the work of others; that is awesome!

Point 1: if you can't fix it, blend it!For some reason, I have always blended the offending string(s) the best I can with the unison and octave, but never thought about also blend this "inevitable irregularity" with the neighboring notes. This is an excellent point; I like this a lot. By ever so slightly blending the offending unison with the neighboring notes, it certainly would help mask the starkness of the offending unison. That is a great observation.

Point 2: unfit the offending string.Kamin, I'm not sure if you meant to imply that you will sometimes unfit/unmate a unison that has an offending string, but if that is what you meant, then that is absolutely genius!!! This is something that I absolutely will play around with some more. I'm normally concerned with adjusting the hammers to get a perfect fit, but when confronted with a situation where one string is presenting unison tuning issues, perhaps a slight altering of the hammer fitting could produce a helpful result...

Blend is nice (as we do so to even the break, modifying the unison construction on both sides so they sound more even from note to note).

Simply there is a point I feel not at ease which is when I have to make the other notes sounding too "bad" for my desire. I will then tend to hide the offending partial/false beat, by making the note "fuzzy" for instance..

As the shape and voicing will alter the spectra it sound reasonable to try to use that to lessen the output where it hurts. (we cannot do much in fact if 2 strings dont match there will be always a defect, I doubt we can really damp only part of the tone, but if a partial can be really extracted as offending it always can be lessened)

Some comprehension of the tone and how it evolves in time is certainly a big plus there, for instance making the difference between a 3 strings and a 2 strings envelope, I dont expect a similar construction in a 2 strings unisons and one with 3 strings.

Then I believe I used to do that without thinking so precisely about, but writing, exchanging with open minded persons, and searching, trying to analyze what we do with some "rules" certainly helps to evolve and to find new solutions. It is nice to have your input there !

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It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills

Nice !! What is difficult is not really to listen, but to manipulate the pin/wire system.Raise really as slowly as you are descending the string from above (then as you say you are hearing all the possibilities of the unison)

That is why I push you to have that slow motion, that is how sensations get acquired. It will help you for tone but for justness as well of course, because knowing how to listen an unison you know how to listen an octave, a 5th, any interval in the end.

The left hand after some time play its role as an automatism, That hand instruct me to the level of percussiveness without me having to think or evaluates it.

A funny exercise is to focus on the playing hand and the key, then to focus on the hammer rebound, then to focus on the higher pitched tones . Then the left hand is acting automatically doing his part of the job)

The more you will work slowly the more you will gain deep sensations on what goes on exactly. As the tuning pin makes the same motion in one direction than the other, whatever motion remains is the part you want to tune.

New video ??? with 2 strings vs 2 strings please , you tuned some very good doublets in the 3 strings unisons.

Edited by Kamin (05/17/1210:35 AM)

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It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills

My tuning skill and the voice of my piano improved a lot after my first video submission.

The range of attack with round tone seems very wide. There are a lot choice of unison in bass notes. I like the higher partial sing together with fundamental. In decay, the higher partial pop out. The 3rd and 4th octave chords sings and have colorful sustain with those bass support.

Listening to the decay, it sounds like film sound track! My dream sound.

I've been following this thread, and in the course of the (excessive) flowery tonal verbiage, you gave an incredibly concise description to Weiyan of using the key playing hand as, at least, an equal partner in moving the string tiny increments for really fine adjustments. This really hit home for me, and I've taken off with it!

Other techs have, I think tried to describe this, rapid fire m or mf(at most)keystroke, but either my brain just figured out what they were trying to say, or the clarity of the "playing hand adjusting the pitch" (without banging!) was just clearly communicated.

When I say rapid fire, I mean musically, and I stress "musically" both in sound and use of the striking hand and arm, as a unit, kind of stroking, not hitting, the key maybe 2 or more times/ second (more in the treble) m . This, as you are applying force just below the "turning threshold" with the lever hand.

Also same as above but sometimes with a gentle impact style on the lever, depending on how the pin is behaving.

Jim basically the instructions, are add torque slowly while playing rhythmically

Wait for the pin to crack (generally it does)Tune the note so it speaks (bloom)reverse torque, use a tad more so the wire is holding the pin.

Check by gently pushing up down (grand piano) so you can ascertain the system is stressed as you wish.

I notice it is often easier to tune if one focus on the pin more than on the tone !

The jerking torque is necessary when the pin is really tight, but I've been surprised how much control one can have with a gentle slow pull and enough energy from the left hand. The jerking is more or less to free the pin so next tuning will be easier... A slowly well set pin on a good piano is almost impossible to move any direction, so better do that "definitively" so not much changes on a second pass.

Best regards

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It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills

I've been following this thread, and in the course of the (excessive) flowery tonal verbiage, you gave an incredibly concise description to Weiyan of using the key playing hand as, at least, an equal partner in moving the string tiny increments for really fine adjustments. This really hit home for me, and I've taken off with it!

Other techs have, I think tried to describe this, rapid fire m or mf(at most)keystroke, but either my brain just figured out what they were trying to say, or the clarity of the "playing hand adjusting the pitch" (without banging!) was just clearly communicated.

When I say rapid fire, I mean musically, and I stress "musically" both in sound and use of the striking hand and arm, as a unit, kind of stroking, not hitting, the key maybe 2 or more times/ second (more in the treble) m . This, as you are applying force just below the "turning threshold" with the lever hand.

Also same as above but sometimes with a gentle impact style on the lever, depending on how the pin is behaving.

Thanks again...quantum leap for me..

Jim Ialeggio

Hi Jim,

I wanted to add something :

on pianos with slow rendering you can tune as you describe, waiting for the wire to raise to the wanted pitch while keeping the pin in that tense position.To correct a few cts or tenths of cents that is the same thing, in fact when doing so I consider I am not changing the initial setting of the pin (its torque position) only moving it as a whole.

But if I have to raise more I am obliged to unlock the pin setting more , so there it is really a necessity to have the string raised above the wanted pitch and to reinstall the torque of the pin. raising the string only at the exact pitch if too much move is necessary will not suffice and the string will lessen a bit.

But, generally speaking we are really "tuning" when we are under the wanted pitch, raising, and "working the pin" when we come from above only the pin is of some interest. If the string have to be lowered during that last motion, that is the left hand job, with harder strokes. The pin will not move the string there.

So when raising I focus on the string, and when torquing back I focus on the pin.

In the high treble a pin which is too much torqued will raise the tone a semi tone high , in time, so the torque level and its equilibrium with the string tension is really something that should be evened and controlled. I like the idea to "tune the pin" !

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It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills

on pianos with slow rendering you can tune as you describe, waiting for the wire to raise to the wanted pitch while keeping the pin in that tense position.To correct a few cts or tenths of cents that is the same thing, in fact when doing so I consider I am not changing the initial setting of the pin (its torque position) only moving it as a whole.

What does "not changing the initial setting of the pin, only moving it as a whole mean? the words seem contradictory

I'm finding, again with the rapid fire left hand musical keystroke technique, when a large pitch movement is required (1-2 cents from the flat side), in bringing the pitch sharp of the target by moving the pin foot, the string pitch will overshoot the target. Then settling it back down with the rapid fire musical keystrokes and ccw lever moving torque, I find that after setting, some of the strings will creep just a tad sharp, and need a second or 3rd pass to correct.

I have been finding, though, with a reasonably rendering string and compliant block, that when the pitch is coming from below, 1c or less to target, with Clockwise torque on the lever, and keystrokes moving the pitch, this brings the string right up to pitch where it stays nicely...no overshoot.

Yes , certainly on ehave to evaluate how much torque back is possible befor having the note raising. 1 to 2 cts is still not so large.

What I mean with "not changing the position" is that I have my pin torqued, hold by the wire. Then I have to raise a hair the string.

I consider the pin as being in its torqued orientation, so when I untorque it because it is an obligation, I keep the wire well tense, and I just move the pin of the wanted value, then back to the same "original torqued position" (even if indeed the foot have moved a degree or less (?)

Just a mental picture, I have my optimal torque, I move the whole system then back to the same optimal torque...

Indeed you can avoid raising above pitch in that case I suppose it is what you describe.

If the pin in not in its optimal position from the start (in its bed and its stressed position) you have to raise moreWhen we begin to stress the pin we have a tendency to overtorque. The control is to be able to raise the tone a hair while gently pushing (or pulling) on the hammer , AND be able to lower it when pushing the other direction (in the elasticity of the pin and the pinblock, some are more than others) But it may be more easy to raise than to lower (2/3 1/3 is perfect)if you cannot lower the pin will raise the wire.

for the fine tuning, the different tone (but also the different sensation under the finger of the pianist) can be obtained by changing the synchronization of the attack i.e tuning in the rebound of the hammer, or tuning the attack in the full contact of the key at its bottom, or even a tad later. Just a synchronization question it will yet open the tone more or less without need to listen to the top of the specrta. (while the coupling in that region varies then) it can be refined after, stating for that jump of energy and making it more large if wanted.

The force and speed of the left hand varies depending of the rendering, the tone, the place in the scale.It is mostly a mean to keep the wire segment free and when you have torqued the pin up, the whole system is more rigid you can feel better what you are doing and trust the wire moves.

Edited by Kamin (05/26/1204:28 PM)

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It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills

I posted to another thread in mistake. Supply had supplied an nice suggestion. I copy and paste here.

Quote:

I think you are moving the pin too much - taking it too sharp and then having to go all the way down again. The less you move the pin, the more stable the unisons will be. Listen closely to your unisons. They are not pure. Try to get two strings to sound as pure as one string before moving on._________________________Jurgen GoeringPiano Forte Supplywww.pianofortesupply.com

Hi WeiyanIn my opinion, you should take more time to exactely feel the moment, when the pin breaks free from his foot. Like in a slow motion picture you could analyze, what the pin wants. With your Fujan lever you can have a good respond from the pin. That lillte "tick" in your hand, when the pin starts to move after a torque phase.Maybe you can move your hammer till you think there is no more torque possible in the pin before breaking it free, than moving patiently a litte bit more to bring the pin in the desired position.For me it works best, when I listen to the CHANGES of the tone, when I come from the flat side of the pitch and then listen to this kind of "balloon" that happens shortly after the correct pitch hight. My question is, how big must this "balloon" be, to afterward be able to set the pin with ease. The pin should not break free again, when setting it back. Sometimes I go flat first, but not too much, a beat or so per second, the pull up, but very careful, not just pulling up somewhere over the target, but for the right size of this "balloon". When the tone is much more out of tune after pulling up than it was before, then you probably went too far behind your target.Have a loupe in your hand and take the time to feel, what the pin wants.

Kamin I think we tune nearly in the same way. what the pin is doing is the most important thing in the process for me, too. the tone is my guiderail,.I would say: move the pin as little as possible, and as much as needed.

Kamin I think we tune nearly in the same way. what the pin is doing is the most important thing in the process for me, too. the tone is my guiderail,.I would say: move the pin as little as possible, and as much as needed.

Thank you for your respons, Toni

Hi Toni,

Well said, ..."as much as needed". Now we need to explain what that means, and I realise that it is not easy.

Hi Weiyan,

Some unisons are too open, others are OK, others are very OK; I hope to have more time, perhaps during this week, and deepen on the hammer/pin relation, while commenting your video, note by note.

First, try to charge the pin... more slowly; when you are close to the "spot"... keep on playing, do not loose contact with beats and partials, you do not want.. the spot.. to get passed.. in silence;

from sharp, slowly and continiously push your hammer anti-CW, first reducing the beat, then reducing the amount of partials; do not let the sound decay, play again before it goes of, in this way you can hear "where" the spot is, (remember) in relation with the pin's charge;

your right hand... do not shorten your lever too much, keep your right hand close to the initial position, and try to use more than three fingers; in order to charge the pin try to change the lever's angle, put it closer to 11, 12, 1.

At some level all the tuning we do is "unison". (To quote Jim Coleman). We mis-tune unisons at the coincident partials of the intervals and octaves in very specific amounts that is "tempered" to produce the maximum of musical flexibility of an instrument of fixed pitch. These partial matches have tolerances that are influenced by many things.

To provide for maximum value to the customer-the pitch organization regime that a skilled tuner applies should stay that way for as long as possible. Therefore if you always tune so as to center each strings pitch envelope within the tolerances-any movement away from that center will take more displacement before it registers as "out of tune". This takes skill in assessing the tolerances and most importantly-in manipulating the tuning pin and string into a stable position.

Tuning the strings of a note into unison is the most difficult part of the process because it is the most important part. Being highly skilled at unisons provides the skill to master tempering and octaves. A lot of the skill involves going back over earlier work to correct for drift. A good unison can pull the overall pitch center of a note enough to slightly change the interval. Also temperature changes can create havoc with a tuning in process.

I have never found anything other than centering the pitch of any unison useful. I simply TRY to make all the Wah-Wahs sound good. It seems as simple as that to me!

Thank you for the comments. I go through again unison tuning videos in Youtube, found that they are tuning from lower pitch, raise to charge pin then release.

Its surprise that my piano need to raise more than I expect to charge the pin. Release with slight pushing until it stop. Is this listen to the pin? In some case, the pitch raise again with lightly pull. I drop down and charge again.

Yes we need to raise more than expected, sometime, just to obtain the correct "charging"

That is why the first move counterclockwise is helping , it gives a better "reading" of the tuning pin.

The string friction is manipulated by the left/playing hand.

If you push to the point you cannot push anymore , then the pin will spring back a little, and raise the tone.

So once used to the piano I leave the tuning lever after passed the optimum moment. the pin should rise it back. If it does not, pushing a little on the lever will help it (but on verticals it is generally not the problem) .

Understanding the level of springiness left in the pin and block is not so easy, but you seem to feel it correctly there, may be listening less than in the precedent video helps (?)

the important thing is to have some "charging" , you should try your pin setting by wobbling the hammer front/back, or simply pushing/pulling on it (it must get back)

On a physical standpoint, I suppose that the pin is under the same stress than the wire. Taking that aspect in consideration allows for a very firm tuning (and a stronger while singing tone)

Not really easy/possible to obtain a similar result with impact tuning method and many little motions (unless the impacting is done AFTER the springiness of the system is raised by applying some torque) .

ALfredo ask if the case is made more sonorous via the pinblock and pin "charging" . I say yes, depending of the construction it will be more or less, but basically I suggest that a firmer pin is providing a firmer string termination, hence a thicker tone.

All the seasoned tuners leave that equilibrium between the pin and the wire. being sure that the stress is really impacting the whole length of the pin is what makes a difference, tone wise and stability wise.

I believe that the attack can be made more lively, and more immediate/efficient, with that process.

When one thinks about it, it seem evident that to manipulate a very long and highly tensed spring as we do when tuning, a little more precision can be attained by working very slowly.

Hopefully pianos strings are coupling, that mean they can follow a path of lesser resistance, and in my opinion that is what allows tuning with jumpy methods (but with a lesser control on the pin's torque then ) .

Tuning is like holding a long steel blade (some weight) that is installed on a pivot point, and obtaining a very tiny move on the end of the blade. A firm fulcrum and micrometric motion allow to put the other side where you want.

From a psychological viewpoint (?), holding the lever in direction of the wire allows me to feel I am directly working the wire and the pin as if they are only one element.

Edited by Olek (03/04/1305:36 AM)

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It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills

At some level all the tuning we do is "unison". (To quote Jim Coleman). We mis-tune unisons at the coincident partials of the intervals and octaves in very specific amounts that is "tempered" to produce the maximum of musical flexibility of an instrument of fixed pitch. These partial matches have tolerances that are influenced by many things.

I agree with the first sentence , it say something about consonance level and consonance points.

When I was less experimented, I sometime did "find" the real final tone of my instrument when I get to the 5-6 th octave.

I suggest that it is because if your tempering is not too far from the unison "error margin" you begin to have quite an answer coming from the octave and 12 th (and others) and notes from below.

I find that really strange and surprising , but when being aware of the level of global consonance the piano is providing (what I would call "tone quality reinforcement" ) on can tune with octaves and no real need to check other intervals than the 17th or 10ths the 5th fall in place, as the 4ths, without much control.

That is a "stretch" question , in the end, as the good amount of stretch make the partials line more, the main problem is that we cannot follow them as much as we'd like, so we just need to use them as an enlightenment.

Why is it that a single note (unison tuned) in the 5th 6th octave is sounding a little "empty" if its octave is a little too small ? (I mean even if all other notes are damped)

It can be the tension but more probably the silent "answer" from the rest of the piano, the bridge/soundboard does not react as much at attack moment, so we have a little less partial flowing...

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It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills

Its surprise that my piano need to raise more than I expect to charge the pin.

Hi,Weiyan.I like yours unisons but if your piano so let your tones in one night-day, probably pins does not have enough friction between wood and a metal . Why is it so fast run from the tone?Do not hide a puppy, it was very worried