Solidarity is one of the most complex combo decks that are around, where it's premise is simple, Draw cards and deck your oppoent on his turn. As many of us know, David G (Deep6er) Created this deck about nine months ago leading up to TBA. Here was his original list:

At first many people did not see how the deck did so well. I was one of the first, but because of my love for cheap, affordable combo decks, I was interested. The deck evolved fast and furiously. There are a few major builds nowadays; I will start with my personal build with sideboard and card selections.

Card by Card:
The Manabase: It's the most widely accepted build of the manabase. 19 to 20 lands and 6 to 7 fetchlands (Including Glaciers in this catagory).

2 Mystical Tutor, 1 in board: This is one of the more debateable card choices in the deck. I think running two has been quite good to me. The fact that this one card gets any card from the maindeck you need is a huge plus to it, but it is also very much card disadvantage. I can understand why people would not run it, but I think it is wonderful in my version.

4 Brainstorm: A staple in most decks, works wonders with fetchland and whatnot, blah blah blah. You know everything about this card.

4 High Tide: This card produces a lot of mana with untap effects. Nice. Auto Four-of.

1 Words of Wisdom: It's your kill condition when lethal damage is on the stack. It's quite important to realize that is basiclly the only use for this card. I occacionally cycle it off early to try and get a couple decent cards in my hand.

3 Brain Freeze, 1 in Board: This is what makes Words of Wisdom deadly. Usually a storm for 8 with two of these bad mamerjamers will win you the game. It also allws the deck to win on it's oppoents' turn.

3 Reset, 1 Sideboard: Get good instant to win the game with. Great for utility. Occationally you need ten untap effects over the game, as opposed to eight.

4 Impulse: Probibly the second most important draw/search card in the deck, behind Meditate, it's amazingly awsome at digging for cards. Probibly the last card I'd cut before it would be Combo peices

4 Accumulate Knowledge: I used to use Thirst for Knowledge, but this is better mid combo.

3 Meditate, 1 Board: You need this card to draw more cards, probibly the very most important draw card in the deck. That is the reason you have a wishable one. Paying six mana to draw four cards when you need them to continue the combo is very savvy.

3 Cunning Wish: It's like a non-card disadvantage version of Mystical Tutor. Sure, it costs two more mana, but generally it's better, and you can wish for just about anything.

4 Turnabout: This is your other half of your untap effects. It is quite effecient at that. Occationally used as a combat trick as well.

4 Force of Will: Protection is good.

Stroke of Genius, Flash of Insight, and from board: Massive card advantage and manipulation. Stroke also occationally acts as a kill verses decks that run a few Gaea's Blessings.

Chain of Vapor, Rushing River, Hurkul's Recall, Evacuation, Hibernation: These cards are wish targets to deal with irritating permanets. Chain for a singuler one, River for a pair of them, and Evac for all the creatures, Hibernation for annoying green things, and Recall artifacts.

One of the fundamental concepts behind Solidarity is the way the deck spends the first three (occasionally two) turns sculpting it's hand, instead of doing anything to affect the board. To that end, one of the biggest weaknesses of the deck that we've been discussing since day one is the lack of a high-quality redundancy to Brainstorm, since missing a turn of hand-shaping is very bad generally for your ability to go off. Mystical Tutor is terrible for this both for it's inability to actuall net card parity and increase card quality, and for the fact that it can't help you dig for land. The best option we've been able to find is Opt, which nets card parity and provides a slight amount of dig. However, I still see a lack of this card outside of Virginia. There are other options worth discussing, of course- Whispers of the Muse will probably not make the cut since you'll so very rarely have any use for the Buyback, but Peek is a credible option against Control. Dave is a big fan of Thirst For Knowledge as a setup card in this deck, which I'm not a huge fan of, but I recently had the idea of, as long as one's running TfK, trying Obsessive Search, although I've not yet had a chance to test it out.

Another topic for discussion: With Stroke unbanned and available as a Wish target, is there any reason to maindeck Words of Wisdom, which only serves to make the control matchup harder?

Peter_Rotten

02-25-2005, 09:11 AM

Solidarity, with the exception of ATS, is possibly the most discussed deck on this board. The original thread - found here (http://mtgthesource.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=617) - is 20 pages long. Much has been discussed and much has been decided. With that in mind, much will be deleted from this thread. All redundant posts will be deleted and the member will be directed towards the old thread. I know that 20 pages of Solidarity is daunting, but do your best. When it comes to Solidarity, the only thing more annoying than reading through 20 pages of a thread is reading the fifth incarnation of a Peer Through the Depths vs. Impulse debate.

Carlos El Salvador

02-25-2005, 12:52 PM

One of the fundamental concepts behind Solidarity is the way the deck spends the first three (occasionally two) turns sculpting it's hand, instead of doing anything to affect the board. To that end, one of the biggest weaknesses of the deck that we've been discussing since day one is the lack of a high-quality redundancy to Brainstorm, since missing a turn of hand-shaping is very bad generally for your ability to go off. Mystical Tutor is terrible for this both for it's inability to actuall net card parity and increase card quality, and for the fact that it can't help you dig for land. The best option we've been able to find is Opt, which nets card parity and provides a slight amount of dig. However, I still see a lack of this card outside of Virginia. There are other options worth discussing, of course- Whispers of the Muse will probably not make the cut since you'll so very rarely have any use for the Buyback, but Peek is a credible option against Control. Dave is a big fan of Thirst For Knowledge as a setup card in this deck, which I'm not a huge fan of, but I recently had the idea of, as long as one's running TfK, trying Obsessive Search, although I've not yet had a chance to test it out.

Another topic for discussion: With Stroke unbanned and available as a Wish target, is there any reason to maindeck Words of Wisdom, which only serves to make the control matchup harder?
You make a lot of good points in your post. As I alluded to above, the Mystical Tutor is more of a personal prefrence. I tried Thirst for Knowledge for comboing out/hand sculpting, and I was not entirely impressed. I was not playing them alongside Accumulate Knowledge, so I do not know if that would affect the deck much. Opt is interesting becuase it does refill itself, but the fact is that the card dosn't dig deep engouth in my mind. Peer isn't my cup of tea because it's another 2 CC spell in a deck that is already too full of them.

However, as long as I am running Mystical tutor, I see no reason to not run a maindeck Words of Wisdom. I run 1 of each in the main because they are both useful in their own ways. Same reason why I run one of in the sideboards.

tehmaty

02-25-2005, 01:32 PM

I've been testing this deck with Read the Runes (XU: Draw X Cards, the sac/discard X cards) and I've been loving it... it allows you to burn through your deck, gives a great outlet for discarding lands (or saccing them, because i abuse thawing glaciers as well in my deck) and even if you're playing it with a 3 card hand, it allows you to keep the key pieces you need to win... I've played it with 0 cards in hand, and still won (albeit barely)...

Read the Runes is pretty much inferior to Stroke of Genius on every level. Granted you get to draw an additional two cards for the same mana investment but you don't get to keep all of them. Saccing land is horrible in this deck and should never be done.
Plus you can't kill an opponent with a Read the Runes only yourself.

Spring for the Strokes they aren't too expensive, about 6 bucks, cheaper on Ebay.

l_neiman

02-25-2005, 03:35 PM

I ran Diablos' version at a Legacy tournament in NYC a few weeks ago (minus the Isochron Scepters in the SB, since I wasn't expecting that much control; I had BEBs instead, for the Goblins/Sligh matchup), and I lost to peter_rotten and his BurningTog in Quarterfinals).

Something I noted in the Swiss rounds was that I was having a really hard time beating U/G Madness deck. Sure, I have 4 Force of Wills to help my first High Tide or Reset resolve, but the Madness player, besides hitting me anywhere from 4-7 damage per turn I delayed trying to go off, had access to 4 Force of Will as well as 4 Circular Logic. I boarded in 3 Orim's Chant, which proved to be very good, but in order to make room I had to cut 3 cards that probably would've helped me sculpt a better hand.

I ended up winning the match 2-1, but during Game 3 I started going off and fizzled, which had never happened to me with the deck up to then. I resolved High Tide, Reset, a Meditate and an Impulse, I think, and then just ran out of gas and had to let him go into his attack phase. Then I noticed that he had an Aquamoeba that was separated from his deck and his graveyard, that he had pitched to FoW in Game 2 and forgot to shuffle back in, so he conceded.

Anyway, the point of that was: I would've lost had he not forgotten to put the Aquamoeba back in. How can we improve the matchup vs. aggro-control decks like U/G Madness? The metagame in NYC isn't as developed as in other places, and there were very few people playing actual Legacy decks at the tournament (there was peter_rotten with BurningTog, Elias Vaisberg playing Landstill and myself with Solidarity, but everyone else was running less typical Legacy decks, and were mostly Extended ones). I believe this will be the case at most every Legacy tournament held at Neutral Ground, so I want to be better prepared for that matchup.

Also, going back to my Quarterfinal loss to peter_rotten: what's the best strategy to follow vs. a deck that can completely out-counter you and who is actually benefitted by your High Tides, like Burning Tog? I beat Landstill pretty easily in the Swiss, but my opponent was only running about 8 counterspells, so it wasn't too tough, but the BurningTog deck was Duressing me, FoW'ing me, Circular Logicking me, etc., and I was completely overwhelmed. Haunting Echoes prompted a quick concession, :( .

TheInfamousBearAssassin

02-25-2005, 04:38 PM

On Aggro-Control: This is generally the deck's weak matchup in terms of archetypes (other than Disruption-heavy strategies like discard and land destruction). Against Control the High Tide doesn't need to resolve, since you can wait until you have seven or eight Islands in play before having to go off. Against Aggro the High Tide lets you go off usually before they can kill you. But the ability to counter your High Tide and kill you before turn 7-8 spells doom for you most times. The best thing I can recommend is 4x Disrupt in the sideboard; that and getting lucky. Digging for multiple High Tides seems to be the next best answer.

On Tog: In this case I would try to build up a hand of 1x High Tide, 2x Untap effects, 2-3x Draw spells, and 1-2x Brain Freeze before attempting to go off. Then, even if they stop you from going off completely, you can still try to mill them for their library. Obviously the danger in this is if they have a Psychatog out, however.

In both these cases I might consider siding out Meditates for other cards, possibly Disrupt, as they can use your Meditates to kill you if they can counter the other parts of the combo.

l_neiman

02-25-2005, 05:35 PM

Thanks for the tips. I'll definitely keep them in mind. During the tournament I had no problem vs. Aggro decks, and even The Rock, that I thrashed, but that Madness deck was just such a headache, :p!

tehmaty

03-22-2005, 09:12 PM

Is it worth running Keep Watch (for reference - 2U: Draw a card for each attacking creature) in the SB? I know you're already running 1 Meditate there, but it seems to me that against most aggro decks (R/G survival, Elves, etc.), you're going to be drawing than 4 cards for virtually the same cost...

Personally, I don't really see a reason to go off before combat damage against aggo anyway (barring them playing something like Dosan), so it seems to fit the deck's strategy well enough, and could be insanely powerful in certain matchups (drawing 5-7 cards)...

Slay

03-22-2005, 09:31 PM

Actually, it's generally a bad idea to go off with combat damage on the stack. You have a Hibernation/Evacuation in the sideboard, usually you can cast that(storm +2!) without too many problems. In addition, sometimes you just crap out and can cast a brainfreeze for lethal, but no Words/Stroke for the game winner. In general, a good rule of thumb I ave figured is to assume they have 6 damage worth of burn in their hand, and try to go off around it. If you let yourself go so deep into the red zone, you may find yourself getting bolted in response to you trying to go off way too often. It's happened to me, at least.
-Slay

Claw_Outcast

03-30-2005, 10:54 AM

One big question: Why nobody even think about INTUITION??? It's synergy with AK is really amazing.

CavernNinja

03-30-2005, 12:40 PM

Intuition has synergy with only one card in the deck, AK. AK is not in a large number of builds because it does not draw enough cards for the mana cost. There is absolutely no way to fit Intuition into the deck, it costs too much and is too slow.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

03-30-2005, 02:35 PM

It also thins spells instead of lands, so you're more likely to draw Islands after resolving an Intuition. Not to mention that if you have to cast both in the same turn, while comboing, etc., you might as well just maindeck Opportunity and draw the extra card.

Deep6er

04-05-2005, 04:36 PM

Hey guys, just realized that I haven't informed anyone on how to play the mirror. So here goes. In the Mono blue mirror the best way to win is to find more freezes and more lands. That's for instant speed solidarity by the way, it's kind of different for sorcery speed solidarity. For sorcery speed solidarity go off as fast as possible. Anyway, for mono blue instant speed solidarity, don't worry about throwing out draw spells from turns 1 to 3. Always keep freezes off of your draw spells and try not to miss land drops. Forces are decent but in all likelihood you should try to force the turnabout. Reset here is total trash and should be discarded and flash of insight is ridiculously amazing. If your using the wish board and you have an early cunning wish, wish for stifle or turnabout or foil. Second game side out the meditates for those cards. I know it sounds weird but that's actually the best plan. The mirror seriously does come down to intelligently playing around brain freezes, forces, and time. If you feel the need to go off, do it during your second main phase, turnabouting them. This should start some kind of response and try your best to fight through it. If they float mana, proceed into end step. Remember, High tide is also kind of bad. Wait as long as possible too. For the U/W solidarity mirror. Remember to abeyance/chant them and then go off. Obviously. However, this is by far the most irritating matchup I've ever seen. Chants flying all over the place in addition to forces. The U/W vs. Mono U matchup is aggravating as well. Here though the U/W player has a huge advantage in their own chant/abeyance and it could very well be gg for the mono blue player. I still haven't tested them to the extent that they should be tested however this is just for starters.

Rhapsody in Pink

04-05-2005, 08:31 PM

It's a funny feeling how I instantly assume that playing Chant will win me the match. Either version of the deck is perfectly capable of winning in response (especially in response to you declaring a draw spell). I suppose it's a bit like Landstill players assuming one Stifle stops Solidarity.

Anyway, I'm just saying that Chant does not equal win in the mirror.

Also, High Tide is a pain. In fact, it might be best to wait for an opponent to High Tide, then go off. Testing ho!

Edited By braves54321 on 1112758634

Deep6er

04-18-2005, 05:17 PM

Hey guys, I'd put a little report here about how I did on the 16th but I feel it's useless and nobody would really want to read it. Suffice to say that I went 5-2 and placed ninth. Congratulations both to ewokslayer and venisonmixup as the two solidarity (NoVA) players. I will admit that I was a little irritated with ninth place but I was fine with venisonmixup making it too. On a side note that was the first time venisonmixup played the newer version of solidarity. He was playing the mono blue version and I was playing U/W. I do want to emphasize that I think the U/W version has a lot of strengths and there were only two situations where I wished I was playing the mono blue. Overall I really enjoyed and found that the strengths of U/W were enough to the point that it is the likely solidarity deck that I will continue playing. On to the real point.

With two solidarity decks in the top 8 and it's reasonably good showing at weekly tournaments that the deck is at least decent. So, I think at this point we might leave the optimal deck discussion behind and move on towards how the best method of beating the hate for us is. The obvious hate cards like REB, Pyrostatic Pillar, Boil, Pyroblast, Orim's Chant, and Chalice of the Void. The real issue here is the fact that I can't seem to see whether having an actual SB strategy is better than keeping the fully versatile wish board. Ewokslayer likes the 4x Stifle and the 4x BEB. However, Venisonmixup went with the fully versatile wish board. (I went with the 4x Abeyance and 2x Tundra in the board with one maindecked Tundra for access to first game Abeyance.) Ewokslayer swears by the ridiculous power of the 4x BEB and the 4x Stifle. Venisonmixup actually used some of the less often wished for targets and said that he liked them a lot. My SB was 4x Abeyance, 2x Tundra, 1x Meditate, 1x Turnabout, 1x Stroke of Genius, 1x Words of Wisdom, 1x Tempest of Light, 1x Chain of Vapor, 1x Echoing Truth, 1x Rebuild, 1x Evacuation. Anyway, I think discussion now should be geared towards SB strategies and other possible wish targets. I'm open to suggestions although I'd prefer if you could give reasonings and possibilities as opposed to hearsay and rumor. Thanks much! :)

venison mixup

04-20-2005, 01:02 AM

@Deep6er
I only wished for a few cards and found myself wondering why is this here? I never wished for counterspell, foil ,or tolarian winds.amoung a few others. The deck needs better side board option that shore up its problems against hate cards as you said. The 4 beb and 4 stifle plan seems strong,as it seems beb is a good answer for all majority of the hate cards.
@Ewokslayer
What exactly did you cut in order to make room for 4 stifle and 4 beb?
Also when you side in the bebs you side out what? I am guessing fow.

It should have been either 3 Beb's or 3 Stifles in order to make room for Evacuation but I didn't think about my Angel Stompy matchup before hand. (though I still can get around True Believer - Mother of Runes its just much more a pain in the butt)

As for what I sided out for Beb's and Stifles, it depended on the matchup and the speed of the other deck. Usually it was some combination of Opts and Thirst for Knowledge. On Saturaday it was more often Opts since I was playing against Survival decks and could afford the decrease in usefully Turn 1-2 search. I never sided out the Forces because I usually wanted to assure myself of stopping the hate cards, not just more efficiently deal with them.

In the Solidarity Mirror against Deep6er it was 4 resets for 4 stifles. However, if I had to have played you I think I would have sided out the Thirst for Knowledges.

l_neiman

04-20-2005, 12:16 PM

Since the maindeck for EwokSlayer's version of Solidarity is not posted on the top-8s thread, would it be possible for you to post it here for discussion?

Ewokslayer

04-20-2005, 12:35 PM

This is the decklist I took to the Dual Land Tournament
12 Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta

I believe the only difference between my maindeck and vension mixup is
-1 Turnabout (It's in his sideboard)
+1 Thirst for Knowledge

Claw_Outcast

04-21-2005, 04:11 AM

I was thinking about versions which run Mystical Tutor instead of Flash of Insight. I personally run version of this deck with 2 Mystical Tutor and 3 Peer through Depts + 1 Words of Wisdom instead of TFK. I wanted to hear your opinion about splashing black (1 Underground Sea) and running 2 Lim Dul's Vault instead of Tutor. It's faster and has great stacking potential. TFK is rather slow, isn't it?

Ewokslayer

04-21-2005, 09:10 AM

Splashing black for Lim Dul's Vault is a bad idea.
Splashing a color of any sort leaves the deck vulnerable to wasteland, which is very bad.
Blue/White can get away will it because it only needs the white for the turn it is going off and can work around wasteland.
Vault, like Mystical Tutor, is card disadvantage and are generally bad cards for this deck.
If you want to run Peer through Depths go for it, but I hate the fact that it can't find land before going off and that you only get to keep one of the five while comboing.

Thirst for Knowledge is slow, but it's a good turn 3 play to provide a final optimization prior to comboing the next turn. The deck runs 12 1-2 mana hand optimization spells so it doesn't really mind the higher cc of thirst. Thirst also serves a nice roll in discarding Flash of Insight as well as useless land while comboing if the three cards drawn off the thirst are all business spells.

AnwarA101

04-21-2005, 10:41 PM

Has Annul been considered for the sideboard? It seems that it would be good against some of the hate such as chalice of the void, arcane lab, pyrostatic pillar, rule of law, etc. It doesn't do anything about spells like boil or tsunami, but at least it could cut off some of the hosers.

Claw_Outcast

04-22-2005, 05:55 AM

Another thought: one of deck's main disadvantages is the fact that Meditate is the only card advantage spell, others are just cantrips (best cantrips, but anyway...). Splashing just 1 Underground Sea could give access to one of the best C.A. spells used in vintage 4C Control - Skeletal Scrying. Superior even to Stroke while mid-combo. Inferior to Meditate anyway, but relying only on Meditate is risky. And you only need black mana while going off, Wasteland could be worked around. My current list for reference:

Splashing just 1 Underground Sea could give access to one of the best C.A. spells used in vintage 4C Control - Skeletal Scrying.
What happens if you don't see a fetch land by turn 4?
Or if your only land drop turn 1 is a fetch?
Do you grab the Sea and risk a costly wasteland smacking you?
If you don't grab the Sea you now have 3 more dead cards in your library.

side
2 Orimís Chant
Abeyance > Orim's Chant
Drawing a card is good.

Has Annul been considered for the sideboard?
Annul is sometimes in the board as a wish target but it hasn't been tested as a 3 or 4 of to improve matchups revolving around a lot of enchantment/artifact hate.
Mostly because it would have to replace either the BEB's or Stifles as I don't believe there is room to have a sideboard with sets of all three and still have the bounce necessary in case the spells do resolve. At least Beb can destroy the red permanent after it resolves if it shows up too late to counter it (Except Goblin Piledriver)
Though I suppose that might be a metagame call. But, Beb does counter the Pillars and Boils that Non-ATS Survival decks bring in games 2 and 3.

Skeletal Scrying
You can't run Scrying and Flash of Insight together and I don't know if the combination of a weaker mana base and the lose of the wonder that is flash of insight are outweighed by the card drawing of scrying especially considering the low life the deck usually is at when comboing off.

one of deck's main disadvantages is the fact that Meditate is the only card advantage spell, others are just cantrips
That is true and very often annoying, but stringing together cantrips is still usually good enough to get a lethal brain freeze. Plus, Flash of Insight is card advantage when flashed backed as well as a good tool in stacking your deck.

Claw_Outcast

04-22-2005, 08:55 AM

Is Flash of Insight really that good?!How often do you play it from your hand? It's really good search, SLIGHT card advantage only when flashbacked. And, I suppose, you can never play it before 4th turn. Again, to discard it you are forsed to play with Thist for Knowledge, which is sub-optimal in general (too slow, you know it).

And seriously, who plays Wasteland nowadays? Random aggro decks, which are best matchup anyway? You cannot deny draw power of Skeletal Scrying, something this deck really needs. It adds a lot of consistency to the engine.

IndyTerminator

04-22-2005, 09:29 AM

And seriously, who plays Wasteland nowadays? Random aggro decks, which are best matchup anyway?
I think you're forgetting Landstill there. They have Crucible/Wasteland lock in the deck and I've heard Landstill is a pretty good deck. The worst thing that this deck could possibly face is land destruction. When I play this deck it doesn't bother me to much if someone plays an Arcane Lab or Pyrostatic Pillar because I know I can go get something to take care of that. You really can't do that with land destruction.

Ewokslayer

04-22-2005, 09:32 AM

And seriously, who plays Wasteland nowadays?
Landstill
U/G Madness

Is Flash of Insight really that good
Yes, it helps beat Control and Aggro Control.
It's golden in the mirror, where it is quiet easy for it to stack your deck.

How often do you play it from your hand?
Fairly often while setting up. I have flashed for 1 on turn 3 or 2 on turn 4 numerous times. While comboing I rarely hardcast it and dump it with thirst.

I am still not sold on the black splash for scrying, while it is a great card it doesn't offer the deck anything it doesn't already have. The black splash doesn't shore up the sideboard at all (Is there any relevant black instant that can be wished for to deal with the hate?)
But I suppose I will test it tonight.

I really don't like your manabase. Splashing 2 colors and playing thawing glaciers seems like way to many non basics.
I would have to say I am not a fan of Thawing Glaciers, it has tended to help in long games that I would already win and hurt in games where I had to go off turn 4 and that was the only land I could play.

l_neiman

04-22-2005, 10:34 AM

To ask a question that's been on my mind for a bit: are there any advantages to running a sorcery-speed Solidarity (like the one Deep6er mentioned) over an instant-speed version? Besides gaining obviously good cards like Merchant Scroll, are there any other pros/cons to making the switch to sorcery? I was unable to find a decklist with a search, so if anyone has one I'd appreciate it, just to have as a reference.

EwokSlayer: great list! I'll test it out and see if I can think of any suggestions.

MattH

04-22-2005, 12:45 PM

At sorcery-speed you get Diminishing Returns, which is huge. Geyser is also a possibility, as are Cloud of Faeries/Snap/Peregrine Drake. Theoretically you can use Tendrils for the kill. There's a lot to offer, but perhaps it merits its own thread.

Ewokslayer

04-22-2005, 12:57 PM

Pros
Diminishing Returns, Can Hide Tide more than 4 times.
Sleight of Hand > Opt
More untap effects, Can waste a Turnabout to tap out an opponent at their EOT.
Slightly faster turn 3 wins without disruption
Merchant Scroll

Cons
More vulnerable to most hate (Chalice, Arcane Lab, Pillar; except Gaea's Blessing as sorcery speed can run Extract)
No real improvement in match up results.
Horrible Matchup against instant speed Solidarity
Forced to go off with incomplete knowledge as you can't wait for optimal time against aggro as you have to guess how much damage they can do in their turn.
For some reason the matches I have watched of sorcery speed Solidarity have taken forever to play out often going 20 minutes after the round ends. Don't really know why.

Braves54321

04-22-2005, 01:31 PM

At sorcery-speed you get Diminishing Returns, which is huge. Geyser is also a possibility, as are Cloud of Faeries/Snap/Peregrine Drake. Theoretically you can use Tendrils for the kill. There's a lot to offer, but perhaps it merits its own thread.
Ray D3 has been working with a sorcery speed verion of this deck, which can be found here (http://mtgthesource.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=31;t=16).

I haven't tested/played vs either version of solidarity in quite some time, so I can't really add more to the current discussion.

Djinn

04-28-2005, 01:11 PM

First of all hi to all, u're doing a great job with the forum, I've been reading it for a lot of time but I've decided to buy a legacy deck and prolly solidarity one. I've played some casual games, not so many to be honest, and I don't see the point on glaciers yet.
It'd be fine if some solidarity experienced players adds me to msn: djinncito@gmail.com ; I also play in m-l and I've a skype account. Hope to talk to you asap, thx

EDIT: Just won a game thanks to glaciers :P

Ewokslayer

04-28-2005, 01:33 PM

From the Solidarity Primer

Thawing Glaciers
This works by pulling additional land out of your library with each untap effect you play. It is a very effective tool to keep you drawing gas while comboing. However, it is vulnerable to Wasteland and can slow the deck down considerably if drawn in multiples. It also comes into play tapped causing a loss of mana at the being of the combo. Whether this is a fair trade off for the abundance of mana it creates later in the turn is dependent on the metagame. Against control this card can allow the Solidarity player to out pace the opponentís land drops and make resolving a Turnabout against the opponent a viable option earlier. Against decks packing Gaeaís Blessing this is a card you want to see early. Glaciers also has synergy with mid-combo Brainstorms and makes it easier to stack your deck via Flash of Insight.

Wow, I got to quote myself. I feel all special

I wonder if this is how Peter Rotten feels when he quotes himself?

Ray D 3

04-29-2005, 01:40 PM

For some reason the matches I have watched of sorcery speed Solidarity have taken forever to play out often going 20 minutes after the round ends. Don't really know why.
Because that way games 2 and 3 never happen and the Sorcery Speed Solidarity player wins the match 1-0-0, and thus your opponent is forced to decide whether they wish to concede while you may still fizzle or let you exhaust the clock. Please also realize that it doesn't have to take that long as it is extremely easy to go Merchant Scroll>Cunning Wish>Brain Freeze>Go! when you need to.

Btw, I'm looking for goldfishing results from traditional Solidarity to compare with my results from the sorcery speed version. Please list them in a simillar fashion to the way I did in my Goldfishing section of my first post. Once again, that thread can be found here (http://mtgthesource.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=28;t=511)

I would do it myself, but people may consider this a conflict of interests, so any help will be greatly appreciated.

Here, btw is my list of Pros and Cons of playing the Sorcery speed version over the instant speed version.

Pros:

*It goldfishes faster than Solidarity.
*It does not fizzle as much as Solidarity.
*Itís greater ability to tutor prevents you from ending up with all untap effects or all draw effects.
*It's greater ability to tutor gives you the ability to fight through disruption.
*Itís greater ability to tutor allows the deck to find answers (bounce spells, Force of Wills, etc.) with greater ease.
*Itís stronger draw power makes disruption less of a liability.
*Itís greater amount of untap effects makes disruption less of a liability.
*It permits you to keep one land hands providing you have enough hand refinement spells.
*If you donít make the last land drop on the turn you start to go off, you can play it when you draw it.
*You can go off with as few as 2 lands in play.
*It doesnít give your opponent a chance to untap, draw, and cast those few extra spells while you're going off.
*It wonít lose to random Stifles/Gaeaís Blessings.
*It doesnít have cards that remain useless until you go off (Brain Freeze).
*It allows you to cast your bounce spells or Turnabouts at end of turn and go off with a full untap.
*It has main deck removal in the form of Snap.
*This deck can beat any sized deck by going infinite.
*The fact that it can spend great lengths of time to go off can cause the opponent to scoop without knowing if you might fizzle in order to avoid having you drain the clock and win with a 1-0-0 record.

Cons:

*Less instants means less control of the stack (It still has a lot of instants, just not as many).
*The deck Needs to resolve a High Tide to win.
*The deck has difficulty in the Solidarity mirror.
*The deck loses access to Reset.
*Snap creates a liability to creature removal.
*The deck is vulnerable to Misdirection.
*Since you go off on your turn, you usually canít use your opponents spells to up the storm count.
*You have to predict when your opponent can kill you or drop hate.

MattH

05-02-2005, 04:13 PM

*This deck can beat any sized deck by going infinite.
How exactly does this happen?

Ray D 3

05-05-2005, 08:08 PM

Go to my thread and look. It involves playing 4 High Tides and wishing for Capsize to use on the faeries for infinite mana. This happens more often than one would think, and if need be, the same trick builds up an infinite storm count after 3 High Tides.

Orogen

05-14-2005, 05:11 PM

Ray D 3, where is that thread exactly? I keep getting a broken link when trying to access it.
Or if someone wouldn't mind PMing me a list, I have yet to see what one looks like but I am intrigued.

-Orogen

Ray D 3

05-14-2005, 09:31 PM

Ray D 3, where is that thread exactly? I keep getting a broken link when trying to access it.
Or if someone wouldn't mind PMing me a list, I have yet to see what one looks like but I am intrigued.

-Orogen
Oh sorry, it was in the contest forum and is now in N&D, so the link changed. I updated it in my post, but to save you the trouble of scrolling up, here (http://mtgthesource.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=28;t=511)

edgarps_22

05-21-2005, 10:56 PM

Just a quick question. How would this deck deal with multiple MD Gaea's Blessings? It would seem almost like an auto fold.

Ewokslayer

05-21-2005, 11:46 PM

Just a quick question. How would this deck deal with multiple MD Gaea's Blessings? It would seem almost like an auto fold.

1) Beat your round 1 opponent. Once you are in the winner's bracket you shouldn't have to worry about numerous blessings game 1.

2) In response to the Blessing triggers you just keep comboing off and play another Brain Freeze. They can only have 4 blessings in the deck and you have 3 Brain Freezes MD plus 3 Cunning Wishes for the last Brain Freeze plus a card drawing spell.

3) Cunning Wish for Stroke of Genius and win.

colsmack

06-10-2005, 09:08 PM

Gaea's Blessing really isn't much of an issue. Once you see it, you can just bring up a few untaps, usually 3 at the lest, and plus an extra high tide ot two to easily hit a 70+ stroke to kill.

edit:EwokSlayer is right, no good decks play multiple MD blessings, unless they are completely anti-solidarity.dec.

DJ Catchem

06-30-2005, 12:39 PM

Since it's been quiet in here lately, I'll open it up. I know it's been discussed a bit, but nothing conclusive seems to have come of it:

Twincast? Has anyone really tested it so far?

I've been playing around with a pretty standard build that replaces 2x Mystical Tutor maindeck with 2x Twincast. So far, it's been amazing. Any time I've drawn it, I haven't missed the Mystical a single bit. Forking a Meditate basically equals a win, and is just stupidly broken. Cunning Wish has been promising, and a fifth AK is some good. In addition, it provides hard counters #5 and #6. This card seems to be made for this deck.

Has anyone else had any similar testing experience? I'm interested to hear other thoughts.

--->DJ

Ewokslayer

06-30-2005, 12:56 PM

I have been testing Twincast as well, 2 in the main.
I replaced a Turnabout (now 3 main) and a Thirst for Knowledge (2 main).
So far I have been happy with the addition of Twincast as it hasn't been dead yet. Drawing eight cards for 5 mana is pretty good.
Though I haven't been able to do the extensive testing that I would like to in order to say that it definitely deserves a spot in the deck.

I am not particulary surprised that you aren't missing the Mystical Tutors considering Mystical Tutor is bad.

Djinn

07-04-2005, 10:48 AM

what's the last and best version? I'm planning buying it for irl so I'd like to know what cards should I buy and what not

One quick question that I have for the more experienced Solidarity players: Why Rebuild. I've seen it in everyone's board, so I left it in mine, although I've never had a situation come up where I needed it, nor do any come immediately to mind. What's it for?

So on to the obvious changes. Not a big fan of TfK and Flash of Insight, While Thirst is useful, letting you see 3 new cards and pitch 2 useless lands while comboing, I don't think it's strong enough to make the cut. Without TfK, Flash is junk. Mystical, on the other hand, is not only useful mid combo, but also for setting up the combo. While it's not as good as Merchant Scroll is in Spring Tide, it's still pretty damn good.

The only real downside to this listing is the loss of Opt hurts sometimes in the first couple turns when it's absolutely imperative not to miss a land drop. Any thoughts?

l_neiman

07-06-2005, 10:32 PM

The most debatable inclusion, I guess, are the AKs and the Intuitions. If you're running AKs then Intuitions are justified, but the question is whether or not you wouldn't be better served running something else in those 6 slots...

I initially had AKs in my build, and liked them. They weren't the best thing in the world, but I liked them more than TFK, that just doesn't get to shine in this deck. I'd be interested in hearing how your testing has been going, since I'd really love to see a build running AKs that works properly. The first AK is always crap, though pretty comparable to an Opt, but as from AK #2 they're obviously much better. And since no other Legacy deck really runs AKs, to my knowledge, it seems like it'd be a good idea to try and exploit them.

Also, the Words for Wisdom don't really belong, from my testing. You're unnecessarily giving your opponent a card, and the only time you really want to cast it is for the win, after a huge Brain Freeze. I run one in the SB to Wish for, but that's it. I think something like Opt would be better, or Mystical Tutor #3 and something else...

Just some thoughts.

Luis

SpikeyMikey

07-07-2005, 02:45 AM

Hmm, that's an interesting idea, like I said, I miss Opt a lot. I've used the Words in mid combo, generally because by that point, you've got enough momentum that it doesn't matter if you give them a card, but I'd be thrilled to replace them with Opts. To be honest, I hadn't given them much thought, I ran them simply because they were in other builds, much the same reason I'm running Rebuild.

Carney2k4

07-07-2005, 07:43 AM

Rebuild is in the board mainly because of Chalice. At 1 mana you have Chain of Vapor, at 2 mana, Hurykl's Recall, and at 3 you have Rebuild, because you need some solid bounce against CotV, and sometimes multiple CotVs, and you also might need multiple bounce, because most decks that run them also run counterspells. You pretty much run either Rushing River or Rebuild.

l_neiman

07-08-2005, 01:26 PM

SpikeyMikey: I totally agree about Words in mid-combo, because it really doesn't matter at that stage. However, when trying to set up and start going off giving your opponent another card blows, from my personal experience. I remember playing against Peter Rotten at a tourney here in NYC and he was with Burning Tog and I kept casting Words to try and get set up, and he never even pretended to consider countering them, since he was getting free cards out of it.

Try Opt out, and let me know what you think. I just think it's so underwhelming when compared to things like Brainstorm, Impulse, etc. I'd love to be able to get Peer Through Depths to work, and I tried it, but not being able to grab a land is just too problematic sometimes...

Luis

SpikeyMikey

07-10-2005, 12:31 PM

That's exactly why I wanted Opt, because it means I've got another 1 mana dig card card. It's not a particularly impressive one, but it's 1 mana, and it'll get me to land. Works better mid combo than Serum Visions, and obviously far better than Sleight. Intuition has really paid off for me, I don't see them often, with only 2 of them, and that's fine, because I don't want 2 or 3 cluttering up my hand, but when I hit them, they're solid gold. Intuition and Mystical give me the tutoring I want to find what I need when I need it.

I cannot for the life of me see the reasoning behind running a Hurkyl's Recall if you're going to run Rebuild. The given reason being a variation in CC, but if you need a 2cc bouncer, i.e. Chalice 1 and Chalice 3 are set, you won't be able to Wish anyway. Not that anyone casts Chalice 3 anyway, that's a whole bunch of mana. It just seems like as rarely as it'd come up, there are better options.

l_neiman

07-11-2005, 09:26 AM

So what does your deck look like with the changes? I think I'll give Intuition+AK another shot, because of your endorsement of them...

Luis

ExpectLess

07-13-2005, 12:17 AM

I can't understand why people run AK in this deck. It's terrible. It's a 2cc cantrip that does nothing else to help pre-combo and even mid-combo is crap. Even with intuition, it's still bad. So you intuition for AK's, play one, and what do you end up with? A single card advantage for 5 mana, and that's not good enough. The worst part about it? You thin your deck of draw, and that is a huge problem. Not to mention you are bastardizing 6 spots for AK/intuition.

Opt is alright. It's one of those cards I would begrudgingly accept as part of the deck as there really are no other 1cc decent draws. If a deck doesn't run Opt, you pretty much have to run 19+ lands, where if you do, you can get away with 17-18. It can let you safely take 1 land hands and isn't dead in combo either.

Tutors belong in every combo deck. Solidarity is no exception. Although the shitty card parity sucks, tutor goes a long way in balancing the deck (not to mention it has some synergy with brainstorm, where you can shuffle or pick up after tutor). Tutor can get you that high tide or reset you need to combo off of 3 lands if you're facing lots of aggro or something, which is essentially impossible without those two. Tutor will always guarantee you have adequate draw mid-combo, without exception. It acts as the 'missing link' of the combo pieces. If you have a high tide, meditate and tutor, almost regardless of what the rest of your hand is, it's pretty much gg.

Running two Words and a Stroke mb makes your chance of fizzling decrease dramatically. I realize that Stroke is completely dead during hand optimization, but it is amazing if you are short on card draw during combo (which is the main reason people fizzle). It doubles as a kill condition as well. Pulling one of these three cards equates to one less card you have to wish for. Additionally, with tutors in the deck, there's really no reason not to run them.

I haven't really tested out Twincast extensively, but it seems to me like it might be worth including.

TheInfamousBearAssasin's list is pretty optimal. The only difference I would make is -4 TfK, -2 Flash, +3 Tutor, +2 Words, +1 Stroke. These changes add incredible consistancy and make the deck much more fizzle-proof. Moving one of the Turnabouts to the sideboard isn't bad either.

LeRoux

07-13-2005, 01:07 PM

I can't understand why people run AK in this deck. It's terrible. It's a 2cc cantrip that does nothing else to help pre-combo and even mid-combo is crap. Even with intuition, it's still bad. So you intuition for AK's, play one, and what do you end up with? A single card advantage for 5 mana, and that's not good enough. The worst part about it? You thin your deck of draw, and that is a huge problem. Not to mention you are bastardizing 6 spots for AK/intuition.

Just for your information, Intuition for AK than playing AK results in +2 Card Advantage, not just one. You are not the only person saying this, however, think about it a couple seconds, and you'll realize that your wrong. If you've got only one card in hand, let's say Demonic Tutor, and you play it. How many cards will you have when it's done resolving? Still one card....because it's a cantrip. As for Intuition, I try not to see it as a 5 Mana/Draw 3. Usually, when you're gonna be ready to cast it, you will already have an AK in hand, which means that you'll actually be drawing 7 cards, out of Intuition and AK for 7 Mana (AK + AK + Intuition) which is pretty good. But I'm not sure this is what this deck needs. It gives you 6 bad (read that should never be cast unless in deep trouble...) cards pre-combo, but is definitly great in the middle of it.

I've been playing TheInfamousBearAssasin's list for a little while, however, I did not have the chance to test versus real T1.5 decks, but I did test versus Landstill, and his version crushes it. I was even able to beat a first turn Library of Alexandria (on his draw). I only lost to a Cruci-Strip (which is pretty...absent from 1.5 :laugh: ). I used to run Mystical Tutor, and I think it was pretty good, however, the -1 CA is pretty bad in itself, but the resulting advantage might be good enough to warrant it's inclusion.

boom

07-13-2005, 01:50 PM

however, think about it a couple seconds, and you'll realize that your wrong

Woah, did you not see what he just said? Obviously AK3 and AK4 are amazing, but you also have to clutter up the decklist with AK1 and AK2 along with his buddy Intuition. The Urzas Legacy Uncommon Opportunity > AK1-AK3, with half the slots. AK is horrible for this deck, I do not know why you are beating a dead horse.

To go on a quick tangent, Demonic Tutor = any card in your deck, its about card quality not quantity. Maybe you cant tell, but this deck isnt about huge game winning bombs, its about a stream of bargin binder draw cards. LoA and strip are also banned from Legacy, just in case you were not aware. ???

LeRoux

07-13-2005, 02:59 PM

Woah, did you not see what he just said? Obviously AK3 and AK4 are amazing, but you also have to clutter up the decklist with AK1 and AK2 along with his buddy Intuition. The Urzas Legacy Uncommon Opportunity > AK1-AK3, with half the slots. AK is horrible for this deck, I do not know why you are beating a dead horse.

Let-me just requote exactly the point I wanted to adress

A single card advantage for 5 mana, and that's not good enough.

The "You're wrong" part was about saying Intuition - AK being +1 CA. I tend to agree that the Intuition engine does not fit in the deck too, indeed, I was just explaning how Intui/AK was +2...

To go on a quick tangent, Demonic Tutor = any card in your deck, its about card quality not quantity. Maybe you cant tell, but this deck isnt about huge game winning bombs, its about a stream of bargin binder draw cards. LoA and strip are also banned from Legacy, just in case you were not aware. ???

Maybe you think I'm a really retarded person, because of my low post count, and because I talked about LoA and Strip. But what I meant to say was that TheInfamousBearAssasin's version of Solidarity crushed Landstill, except for the elements it gets in T1. Which means that logically, his version, would crush a T1.5 version of the same deck, got it?

ExpectLess

07-13-2005, 05:08 PM

Let-me just requote exactly the point I wanted to adress

A single card advantage for 5 mana, and that's not good enough.

The "You're wrong" part was about saying Intuition - AK being +1 CA. I tend to agree that the Intuition engine does not fit in the deck too, indeed, I was just explaning how Intui/AK was +2...

Yes, you're right, it is +2 advantage, my mistake. My point was that even with +2 advantage it isn't good enough considering you can't do much pre-combo, it thins your deck of draw cards, and you have to waste 6 spots for it. But it appears we agree on this matter, so the subject is dropped.

The main gripe I had is people's abandonment of Mystical Tutor. Try goldfishing with TheInfamousBearAssasin's version, then try with the changes I said before. You will average a much more reliable win with literally no loss in speed. Tutor is the glue that holds the deck together.

Deep6er

07-13-2005, 06:06 PM

Listen, I've been testing this deck for an inordinately long amount of time. I've tried everything from FoF to Gifts/Intuition. When mystical was unbanned I immediately added it to the deck. After some testing I found that I was disappointed with it every time I drew it. Mystical Tutor is just not a very good card. I've even tested with it recently in some of the newer builds and have hated drawing it. I really think that the card itself is decent, just NOT in this deck. I also disagree with your statement that tutor is the glue that holds the deck together. The decklist will invariably change from metagame to metagame and thus how viable the tutor will change as well. I can understand why you like the tutor against aggro but then again the most reliable way that aggro has to beat you is multiple blasts + pillar. Mystical tutor may help you find the answer to the pillar or even help find the preemptive blast but it does nothing for comboing purposes. I also disagree with your earlier statement that stroke should be in the main. Stroke in the main is just nothing I like to draw unless it's a ludicrous level of comboing off. I've always felt stroke to be a win more but a decent sb option only because it gets around a variety of things (Gaea's Blessing) that would just be a little more frustrating to beat. All in all, solidarity gets shifted around a lot from place to place. I think in the environment that you're in, if you feel comfortable with it go with it, all I'm trying to say is you should definitely consider the basic fundamentals of the deck before making any changes that have been discussed and found unsatisfactory before.

ExpectLess

07-14-2005, 01:28 AM

I've sat there goldfishing this deck literally hundreds of times straight with and without tutors, and tutors came out on top. Although I understand your familiarity with the deck, there isn't much you can say to make me disbelieve my own results.

Put it this way: what would you rather have, a 7 card hand with missing combo pieces, or a 6 card hand that guarantees you being able to go off by turn 4 (ie, High Tide, Reset, Meditate or whatever else depending on the rest of your hand). The odds of getting all of the pieces you need isn't good enough to pull off a reliable turn 4 win even with an extra card to dig, especially if you include slow cards like TfK which can't do anything until turn 3, and that's assuming you hit land drops every turn.

Tutors also pretty much assure you only have to cast ~7 spells before you deck them, meaning you dont have to combo for long at all. They can easily snatch you a second Freeze or even Words to act as the kill condition.

And I don't think that it's been accepted that tutors are "unsatisfactory." Some people are adamant against them, but there are just as many who include them, and for good reason.

SpikeyMikey

07-16-2005, 08:44 AM

Here's my thoughts on Intuition and AK. To be honest, I've felt like Intuition was one of the strongest cards in the deck, both pre-combo and post. I'm running 2 Intuition and 2 Mystical Tutors, in essence, I'm running 4 DT's. While Intuition *usually* fetches Accumulated Knowledge, both pre-combo and mid, I've also used it to grab Tide and Turnabout. I think it's been of great help in the set up phase. Boom may not believe that the deck is about game winning cards, but if you want to go off turn 4, Tide is pretty game-breaking, and even if you're trying to go off on turn 7 or 8 (like say in a control matchup) you're going to need Reset and Turnabout. The deck runs enough cheap draw spells that Mystical Tutor is good mid combo, as it smooths your draws and allows you to shuffle after Brainstorming. This turns Brainstorm from "draw 3 cards, put 2 lands back, draw them again with your next draw spell" to "draw 3 cards, put 2 lands back, find something good and draw it with your next draw spell". In fact both Intuition and Mystical Tutor are amazing in this respect. I've never fizzled. Not once in what's probably approaching 50 or 60 games. I've lost games, but I've never started to combo and had the deck peter out on me.

As far as AK goes, AK for one is certainly not amazing. AK does provide the deck with much needed draw, however. Without AK, your only real draw consists of Brainstorm and Meditate. Without Mystical and Intuition, you've got only Meditate and the subpar Words of Wisdom. If you're going to run Intuition, there's no good reason not to run Accumulated Knowledge. I'll edit my previous post to reflect the decklist I'm running as it currently stands.

Perry75K

07-25-2005, 01:47 PM

Can solidairty combo off with your oppt's draw on the stack then brainfreeze their deck away. Then when they draw for the turn they loose???

Ewokslayer

07-25-2005, 02:07 PM

The card drawn for the turn doesn't use the stack and occurs at the beginning of the draw phase so you can't respond to it.
However you could deck your opponent before the draw phase and then when they enter the draw phase they would lose. Unfortunately, Reset can only be used after upkeep so in order to do as you described you would have to rely on Turnabout as the only untap effect.

67-1122470612

07-27-2005, 10:09 AM

The card drawn for the turn doesn't use the stack and occurs at the beginning of the draw phase so you can't respond to it.
I was told about this on MWS and didnt believe it remembering the "trick" to put draw on stack and respond with any Tutoring as a way to get around Mill or shuffle effects. Sadly that "trick" is lost with 8th edition.

With Solidarity, it means that your opponent has an additional card if you plan on using Resets to combo off of. Its not a big deal unless they are playing Landstill or any othe deck running counters/Forces. Oh well...

ExpectLess

08-06-2005, 05:42 PM

Ok, in the lotus tournament I was just in I went 3-2 and both loses were to Landstill (it was being played by at least 20% of the people there). The night before I went 3-1 and T4ed but the loss was to Landstill. What options does Solidarity have against it? The best card I can think of is Back to Basics but that's sort of a bummer because a) its not an instant and b) most other decks can work around it.

Is it worth it to ditch Turnabout, Hurkyl's Recall and the Stifles for Back to Basics in a Landstill heavy meta, you think?

Ewokslayer

08-06-2005, 07:52 PM

Without more details as to how you lost it is kinda of difficult to offer any help. Though boarding in Back to Basics is not the answer.
Did you loss game 1?
What did they board in against you?
What did you do to try to combat their boarded cards?
What build of Solidarity are you running?, (Are you running Mystical Tutors? ; Twincast?)

Why are you running Misdirection in the Board?
Without those bits of detail it is impossible to tell you what you are doing wrong.

Lukas Preuss

08-07-2005, 07:56 AM

I have been playtesting my Solidarity build against Landstill (UW) and it has been ridiculously easy to win... they only have 8 counters... you can even use meditate as a set up card, because they are so slow...

Okay, I have to admit, i played only 5 games against Landstill, but i won all 5 of them and it wasn't even close...

It would really help if you could say, what build you were using, what problems you were facing, etc. :-)

ExpectLess

08-07-2005, 01:20 PM

Sorry about the vagueness.

I lost game one every time. One of them I went 1-2, the others I went 0-2. I'm pretty sure the problem was Standstill, they just owned me in card advantage for the first few turns. If I countered, they'd just counter in response and I'd waste a counter I desperately needed for protection. If I didn't, I'd either have to sit around and do nothing every turn (which I couldn't do because they all set a moderate clock against me) and lose tons of speed, or else give them 3 cards. Plus, in a different match against scepter chant, which had just as many counters as Landstill, I rolled over them 2-0 even with scepters in play, which leads me to believe that Standstill is what killed me.

All three versions were pretty much the decklist in the Landstill deck discussion on page 2 (http://mtgthesource.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=626) about halfway down the page minus the scepters, except one of the three was running Meddling Mage (for some reason?) and two of them ran disks. Two were UW and one was UWR. They all ran 10+ counters also, I saw leak in all of their decks.

I went off as soon as possible and after they used at least some of their mana (lets say, in response to them casting Standstill) but they'd just let High Tide resolve and have all the mana they needed anyway. And every time they'd have like 4 counters compared to my FoW. And if I waited a bit to go off they'd just have a hanfdul of counters.

Post board they all got rid of some combination of StP, disks, and WoG. I'm not sure about all of the cards they sided but I know that at least one of them sided Decree of Justice and at least one of them sided in REB.

I'm running Solidarity with 3 Tutors, 1 Words of Wisdom and 1 Stoke main deck. I run Misdirection as a Wishable free pseudo-counter. Other than that, it's the standard, accepted build. The more I think about it, the more Twincast seems like a viable option though. Against control matchups you've now upped your own counters to 8 and against anything else it's still a decent card for your own spells. To the people that do run Twincasts (or at least have tested it), how do you like it? Is it a 4 of?

And one more question, now that it came to me. Why run Rebuild over Hurkyl's Recall in sb?

scrumdogg

08-07-2005, 07:26 PM

Twncast has been fine so far for me. Around here there isn't as much control, so I've been rnning the Twincasts maindeck & siding in the Forces for when I needed them. Cast is more versatile maindeck, imo, and allows you to have access to 8 counters without wasting slots on those extra 4 counters.

Ewokslayer

08-07-2005, 07:39 PM

It seems like you are taking the wrong approach to the Solidarity matchup and that is why you are having problems?
A few things about your build first.
Mystical Tutors will weaken you matchup against control.
Words of Wisdom is a horrible card.
I take it you aren't running Flash of Insight, which is good against control.

Standstill should not be a problem. If dropped early, they won't generally have a significant clock and won't be able to improve their hand at all. You should be dropping land and getting ready to break the standstill. The point to break the standstill will be based on your hand and how many lands you are able to put into play. I generally wait until I am forced to discard good cards in my Cleanup Step because I have started to miss land drops.
If they drop the Standstill later in the game you deck them in response and then break the Standstill, killing them.
Remember even if they stop you from comboing you can try again next turn and the turn after and the turn after since Landstill's clock sucks and they are forced to be the beatdown in the matchup which they aren't really in a postion to take.

Lukas Preuss

08-08-2005, 04:47 AM

A resolved high tide shouldn't benefit Landstill more than you... They are running 4 Wastelands, 4 Mishra's Factory and 3-4 Faeirie Conclave (not all builds, but most), whereas you are running only islands. You should be having way more mana than them... In this case, their Mana Leaks shouldn't be a problem... :-)

Perry75K

08-08-2005, 11:16 AM

Can solidarity combo off "at the beginning of the draw step" so the oppt will draw and lose when they draw???

Lukas Preuss

08-08-2005, 11:45 AM

No, it can't.

The draw doesn't use the stack, so it's the first thing a player does during the draw step. You can, however try to go off during their upkeep, so they will deck themselves during their draw step, but if you do, you have to do it without Reset, so it will be a lot harder...

Bryant Cook

08-08-2005, 01:32 PM

I have been playtesting my Solidarity build against Landstill (UW) and it has been ridiculously easy to win... they only have 8 counters... you can even use meditate as a set up card, because they are so slow...

Okay, I have to admit, i played only 5 games against Landstill, but i won all 5 of them and it wasn't even close...
I'm sorry I own both decks solidarity and Landstill, and I think what you just said is incorrect. Solidarity does not goldfish landstill at all, I'm currently 12-1 against solidarity while running landstill and the 1 is from the dual land draft. While running solidarity if you wait to combo off your running into a bad situation, letting landstill build up counters. I understand you have twincast and force but your wasteing combo pieces while forcing.

ExpectLess

08-08-2005, 01:46 PM

@Ewokslayer. Yeah, tutors aren't that good against control matchups, but in everything else (which is the majority) they've been really good to me. I used to run Flash of Insight, but I was almost never happy with it. You can't use it until turn 3, it can't dig for anything pre-combo, and even while you're going off, it's subpar compared to other cards. Sure, it's card advantage with the flashback and allows you to essentially have 8 cards in hand against things like control, but I'd much rather have drawn a Brainstorm or Meditate or almost any other card.

@wasted life. Yeah that's what happened to me if I waited. And when I tried to go off like turn 4 or sometime when Landstill didn't have loads of counters in hand, I wouldn't have the mana to both battle the few counters they had and continue to go off.

But I'm ditching words of wisdom, stroke, and another card MB (not sure which yet) to add 3 Twincasts. It'll be harder to instant-kill, but it'll be a lot safer. They should at least solve some of the problems I was facing against Landstill.

Lukas Preuss

08-08-2005, 01:57 PM

Okay, i comboed out against Landstill always as soon as possible (turn 4 usually)... I had way more mana than them, because i had 4 island, while they had like 1 Faerie Conclave, 1 Wasteland (game one, not knowing I was playing no non-basic lands) and two Tundras (or something similar)...

Now, during game one, their hands were full of cards like Swords or Wraths (plus some few Counterspells, of course), during game two, they had mulliganed into some more counterspells. I just let them counter some of my spells, then, when it became impossible for me to combo out, I just cast a meditate as a set up card, knowing that they were not able to kill me within two turns. This was massive card advantage, that made me win.

Okay, I have to admit, the Landstill builds I played against, were only running 8 Counters and more anti-aggro cards like 4 Swords to Plowshares or 4 Wrath of Gods, which doesn't help the Solidarity matchup at all. I think, it would be much harder to play against a more anti-combo orientated Landstill. Still I think, that an unprepared Landstill is one of Solidarity's strong matchups...

BTW: Sorry, if my English isn't too great all the time, it's not my first language... If you have questions, because you don't understand some of my posts, feel free to ask. :-)

AnwarA101

08-08-2005, 04:04 PM

I have been playtesting my Solidarity build against Landstill (UW) and it has been ridiculously easy to win... they only have 8 counters... you can even use meditate as a set up card, because they are so slow...

Okay, I have to admit, i played only 5 games against Landstill, but i won all 5 of them and it wasn't even close...
I'm sorry I own both decks solidarity and Landstill, and I think what you just said is incorrect. Solidarity does not goldfish landstill at all, I'm currently 12-1 against solidarity while running landstill and the 1 is from the dual land draft. While running solidarity if you wait to combo off your running into a bad situation, letting landstill build up counters. I understand you have twincast and force but your wasteing combo pieces while forcing.
I'm really suprised that you have been able to beat Solidarity consistently. I've tested the matchup and it seems to be very much in favor of Solidarity in game 1, but games 2 and 3 are dependent on how much you are able to board in. I think a Landstill deck that only runs the standard 8 counters will have lots of trouble with Solidarity. The fact that you can often just meditate on turn 3 and not have to worry about the tempo loss because Landstill often can't even attack by turn 3 because it hasn't drawn Factory.

rleidle

08-08-2005, 04:58 PM

I was under the impression that most landstills run the standard 12 counters: leak, counter, force.

I think the biggest fear for soladarity is U/r landstill decks because they have the red blasts!

AnwarA101

08-08-2005, 05:10 PM

I was under the impression that most landstills run the standard 12 counters: leak, counter, force.

I think the biggest fear for soladarity is U/r landstill decks because they have the red blasts!
If you check the Landstill thread in this forum you'll find the main deck list on page 1 has 8 counters (no leaks). This is the reference that I was using.

rleidle

08-08-2005, 05:28 PM

I've just started looking into this deck. I think the biggest strength against landstill will be that they have quite a few lands that do not produce blue. Hopefully we can use this to our advantage to force through a critical spell. Of course after we cast high tide their islands produce two blue also!

At first glance I'm very dissatisfied with AK. That will be cut. I also think that the debate over mystical tutor is silly. It is definately better to run mystical because it allows for you to always have a high tide. With only 4 high tides in the deck it is imperative that you have one when you are trying to go off.

Also, I don't really like Thirst for Knowledge. Three mana to cycle 3 cards in your hand does not seem that strong to me.

I wonder if there is something better we could use in that slot? It does seem like we need more draw than just cunning wish -> some sideboard card and Meditate.

Bryant Cook

08-08-2005, 05:35 PM

I have been playtesting my Solidarity build against Landstill (UW) and it has been ridiculously easy to win... they only have 8 counters... you can even use meditate as a set up card, because they are so slow...

Okay, I have to admit, i played only 5 games against Landstill, but i won all 5 of them and it wasn't even close...
I'm sorry I own both decks solidarity and Landstill, and I think what you just said is incorrect. Solidarity does not goldfish landstill at all, I'm currently 12-1 against solidarity while running landstill and the 1 is from the dual land draft. While running solidarity if you wait to combo off your running into a bad situation, letting landstill build up counters. I understand you have twincast and force but your wasteing combo pieces while forcing.
I'm really suprised that you have been able to beat Solidarity consistently. I've tested the matchup and it seems to be very much in favor of Solidarity in game 1, but games 2 and 3 are dependent on how much you are able to board in. I think a Landstill deck that only runs the standard 8 counters will have lots of trouble with Solidarity. The fact that you can often just meditate on turn 3 and not have to worry about the tempo loss because Landstill often can't even attack by turn 3 because it hasn't drawn Factory.
I board in 2 blessing,4 stifle, 2 crypt (why not? lots of dead cards). The match-up isn't as bad as many peopel would think. You have to be an aggressive mulliganer, Mull if there are 2 dead cards or more keep a hand with factory or an island. Go aggro for as long as you can while having islands untapped and just build up counterspells and brainstorm and shuffle game 1. Game 2 same plan after boarding out dead cards.

l_neiman

08-15-2005, 01:01 PM

Congratulations to Deep6er for winning the GP Trial held at Nationals this past weekend with Solidarity. Are the decklists available anywhere yet? If not, can you please post it here so we can discuss it?

Luis

Deep6er

08-21-2005, 04:26 AM

Ok, so here's the newest list. I piloted it to a finals finish at the $500 dollar legacy event splitting with t is for tool for 250 apiece. I didn't do so well in the legacy championship but that was due to entirely different circumstances.

Against the red decks I board -4 FoW -3 Twincast and -1 Meditate to board in the 8 blast. That has made my matchup against them absolutely ridiculously in my favor. Just one more note, Mystical tutor and Accumulated Knowledge do not FUCKING BELONG IN THIS GODDAMN DECK! I'm absolutely serious. Just this one fucking time believe me. It's so absolutely necessary for the 8 blast because there are a lot of cards that are so bad for solidarity to see. Sirocco, Blood Oath, Pillar, and shit like that are really, really fucking bad to see on the other side of the table.

The Professional N00b

08-21-2005, 05:37 AM

Just one more note, Mystical tutor and Accumulated Knowledge do not FUCKING BELONG IN THIS GODDAMN DECK! I'm absolutely serious.

Quoted for truth. At the GPT, I saw at least 4 other people playing the deck with those cards, and none of them did as well as the GOOD BUILD.
Just thought I would say that.

Edit: Oh yeah, and thanks Deep6er for causing Resets to go over $30.

Djinn

08-22-2005, 11:31 AM

Aren't glaciers needed anymore? I thought they gave the deck some consistancy.

Ewokslayer

08-22-2005, 11:41 AM

Thawing Glaciers have never been needed. They are nice but suffer for a number of drawbacks.

1) Wastelandable
2) Unnecessary
3) Can slow down the deck by a turn in some situations

They are basically a win more card that can royally screw you in some games.

l_neiman

08-22-2005, 12:28 PM

I didn't do so well in the legacy championship but that was due to entirely different circumstances.
What happened at GenCon? What were you best/worst matchups in both tournaments?

Luis

Lukas Preuss

08-23-2005, 07:00 AM

Your decklist looks interesting. I'm running basically the same decklist, although there are some differences.

I haven't tested Twincast yet, but it seems to be an interesting choice. It's flexible and you can use it in all kinds of different situations. But do you really think, it is necessary as a 4 off (3 mainboard, 1 in the sideboard)? How often do you wish for Twincast? I'm running Tolarian Winds in the sideboard and it has been a nice wish target in many situations.

But the main thing I don't understand with your build is Flash of Insight. Am I missing something, or is this card just bad (If I'm missing anything, please enlighten me :))? I mean... this card doesn't do anything during the first turns. If you're not running Thirst for Knowledge, you can't even discard it... you have to cast it to get it into your graveyard... It just happens to be useful when you have a whole bunch of mana already and a lot of cards in your graveyard. Wouldn't it be better to run something like Peer Through Depths? I know that there has been a discussion about whether Peer is better than Impulse or not. It's not, but maybe it's better than Flash of Insight? It can be useful during your first turns (digs one card deeper than Impulse and gets every card in the deck, except for lands) and is definitaly useful during the combo...

I'm going to test Twincast instead of Mystical Tutor... but Peer has been pretty nice for me... If there is a reason to run Flash of Insight over Peer through Depths, please tell me. :)

T is for TOOL

08-23-2005, 07:13 AM

Flash of Insight is very strong against control, the mirror, and it helps prevent fizzling. Hardcasting it isn't nearly as important as flashing it back, which only costs 2 mana, not to mention the strong synergy with Cunning Wish. This card saved me many times during the Championship. Why wouldn't you want to run it?

Lukas Preuss

08-23-2005, 08:52 AM

Flash of Insight is very strong against control, the mirror, and it helps prevent fizzling. Hardcasting it isn't nearly as important as flashing it back, which only costs 2 mana, not to mention the strong synergy with Cunning Wish. This card saved me many times during the Championship. Why wouldn't you want to run it?

I'm just trying to understand the reasons to include Flash of Insight, which is - on its own - quite a weak card. I know, that you would never really want to hardcast it... you had to pay six mana to have the same effect as casting an Impulse. :) But without discard in the form of TfK, you have to pay two mana to get this card into the graveyard and another two to get any results. Besides this, it is only good, when you have already played like 10 or more spells. At this point, you should already be winning anyway...

Okay, maybe this card really shines against control matchups... but I have been using Peer and it has been amazing in most games. I'm going to test Flash in its place, but I'm not sure if it's going to be a lot better... like I said, you CAN use Peer to set up a good hand during the first few turns. Flash CAN'T do that. And both are good during the combo.

T is for TOOL

08-23-2005, 09:13 AM

In the first few turns, I would usually cast Opt, Brainstorm, and Impulse. If I drew a Flash, I would either hold onto it or cycle it with three lands in play. One of the key things in the first few turns is to not miss a land drop. Peer cannot get you a land if you need it, so I disagree that it is very strong early game. Flash of Insight is much better when you combo off (almost always netting you whatever you need in the situation, and sometimes even stacking your whole deck!) not to mention it prevents fizzling if you draw into Brainfreezes and Untaps instead of Wishes and Draw/Parody, also it is a bomb in the mirror.

Lukas Preuss

08-23-2005, 09:50 AM

If I drew a Flash, I would either hold onto it or cycle it with three lands in play. One of the key things in the first few turns is to not miss a land drop. Peer cannot get you a land if you need it, so I disagree that it is very strong early game.

Yes, I know that Peer cannot get any lands. But Flash won't get you any lands either. I know that Peer is worse if compared to cards like Opt, Brainstorm and Impulse. But I compared it to Flash of Insight. And it IS better during the first few turns, because it CAN be useful.
Like I said, I haven't tested Flash very thoroughly. Maybe my first impression was just wrong and the card is better than it appeared to me. I'm going to give it a try. :)

T is for TOOL

08-23-2005, 10:34 AM

Perhaps I phrased my response incorrectly. Peer is a better card than Flash early game, but that is irrelevant. Example: Your opening hand contains 2 Island, Impulse, High Tide, Reset, Meditate, and Peer/Flash. You are on the play, so you drop an Island and say go. You draw a spell that isn't a land, play the other Island and say go. EOT, you can either Impulse, Peer/Flash for 0. Obviously the best play is to Impulse for an Island. My point is that the advantage of Peer over Flash is completely irrelevant because you are casting Impulse anyway.

To elaborate even further, after Impulsing for the Island, you draw a card for the turn, play your third land, and pass the turn. EOT, you can now Peer/Flash for 1. I would argue that Flash for 1 is the better play in this situation, as it nets you a card now, and another one when you go off. You can Peer for 5 now, or Flash, drop another land, then go off, High Tide, Meditate, Brainstorm/Opt, and Reset, and now Flash digs just as deep as Peer, although you would wait for it to become even better.

Lukas Preuss

08-23-2005, 11:15 AM

yeah, I guess I can see your point there. :)

I would just like to include Peer really bad. For example, if you had a hand like: 3 Islands, High Tide, Peer, Reset and some other card. You could savely keep this hand against any fast aggro deck like Goblin Sligh, because you can almost certainly go off with three lands in play...

I think, it might be a metagame descision. If you're not facing many control decks or other Solidarity builds but mostly fast aggro, Peer might be better. I don't kow. I guess, I have to test both cards again and than descide. :) Thanks for your comments, you made me understand some of Flash's advantages.

I have another question regarding the Turnabout in Deep6er's sideboard. How often do you wish for it?
I think if i had seven mana, a draw spell and a wish in hand, I'd rather draw some more cards which would almost definitely give me an untap spell like Reset or Turnabout plus more draw spells. I just think it is not necessary to have Turnabout in the sideboard. I had it in for some time but never used it. What do you think?

T is for TOOL

08-23-2005, 12:36 PM

During Worlds, Turnabout and Meditate were the cards that I Wished for most often. The ability to Wish for an untap effect is very important, and Turnabout is much more versatile than Reset. When I reach the point where I Wish for Turnabout, it usually means that I have have drawn into a surplus of other cards, none of them untap effects. Another example: I have cast High Tide twice, so each Island produces 3. I Meditated into Cunning Wish, Impulse, Meditate, Brainstorm. I have 2 Islands untapped, and 1 mana in my pool. There are a lot of things you can do here, such as Impulse followed by Brainstorm. It's likely that you will hit an untap effect, but why risk it? Wish for Turnabout, untap, and you have 12 mana + draw to find another untap effect.

However, maybe it is just the way I play the deck. If you have been consistently comboing successfully without the need for the SB Turnabout, then don't run it. However, I'd cut the cards that I've never Wished for, such as Rebuild, first.

Pyrokinesis

08-23-2005, 11:49 PM

TOOL: Interesting. When I Cunning WIsh, it's almost always for Turnabout or Stroke of Genius. Meditate is something I never considered - after all, I rarely cast Wish without a lot of mana anyway. Wishing for Stroke has won me a lot of games - Untap Spell floating two or three, Wish, Stroke myself for something like six. It's a good last-ditch, at the least.
As for Twincast: By my experience, two is just about perfect. You don't want to have any more than one in hand, really.

Deep6er

08-24-2005, 02:04 PM

Ok, I was really loath to let this little tidbit out but T is for Tool kinda dropped a couple hints about it anyway. Here's how it works, analyze how many times you've fizzled because you have nothing but a couple of brain freezes and untap effects/lands you've had in your hand. Flash can get into the graveyard through other means. All you have to do is freeze yourself and then once you've hit the flash, interrupt the stack, stack your deck, and win the game. Follow? Flash allows for strong anti fizzling technology that I've already used to great effect. Remember to target yourself with all the copies to insure that you'll hit the flash.

Secondly, flash is just an all around good card. It's going to be a two for one and should net you ridiculous stacking abilities when you flash it back. It's also really, really, really fucking good against discard.

Unfortunately, at GenCon I didn't do so well because of strong draws from my opponents combined with overconfidence on my part. My second round opponent kept a ludicrously awful hand that involved a first turn mox (imprinting matron) dropping a fanatic and passing the turn. Notice the lack of mountain? His hand wasn't even fast enough to justify keeping such a godawful hand and he was at 7 cards on the play. That game I keep a mana light hand because it was strong enough to justify it and just couldn't draw what I needed. Game 2 a turn 3 sirocco (which was countered) followed by a (resolved) turn 4 sirocco with reb backup screwed me. Then, round 3 I lose to U/R landstill because games 1 and 3 I had difficulty getting above 3 lands. I was just really frustrated and didn't feel like I should play anymore. However, on friday, I blazed through the $500 legacy to split in finals with T is for Tool playing vial goblins. (Side note, I crushed Turpen later when we played for Super Ultra Legacy Universe Championships of the World. ((We had an extra legends pack to split so the winner got a pack of legends and the loser got a CBS draft set.)))

T is for TOOL

08-24-2005, 03:22 PM

I only hinted at it, I wasn't gonna ruin the 'Secert Gearhart Flash Tech v. 2.0' until after Philly, ass :p. As for Super Ultra Championship of the World, we went to 3 games, and I had to mull to 6 and keep a shady hand (Plus I'm pretty sure you did the Mike Long Impulse draw 4 trick [glare] ). Anyway, I still think you are over-estimating the post-board game against Goblins. I'd suggest playtesting the post SB match thoroughly before claiming you have an overwhelming advantage. And since we are letting all of the damn secerts out of the bag, Twincast is awesome. Gaea's Blessing sucks as a hate card too, though that one should be pretty obvious by now. Pyrostatic Pillar is also pretty lame. Sirocco however... :D

Lukas Preuss

08-25-2005, 05:49 AM

All you have to do is freeze yourself and then once you've hit the flash, interrupt the stack, stack your deck, and win the game.

Nice one... I guess, I haven't thought about that before... :D

l_neiman

08-25-2005, 10:47 AM

Now correct me if I'm wrong: in situations like thw above when you guys advocate Freezing yourself, that's only if you have nothing else to keep combo'ing out, right? I.e.- only do it if you're stuck? And when you do it, do you generally remove all the Blue cards in your graveyard from the game so as to maximize the Flash, or are there certain ones you don't want to remove?

Luis

T is for TOOL

08-25-2005, 11:00 AM

Well, you do it when you are either stuck, potentially going to be stuck, or fear that your opponent is playing some jank like Blessing and your hand can't deal with it otherwise. Additionally, in the mirror (sorcery or instant), you can wait for your opponent to 'Brainfreeze' you for the win, then stack and go off when a Flash hits the yard. You generally want to remove every single blue card unless:

a) One of them is Flash of Insight
b) You can get through your library without using them all

Keeping extra Flashes in the yard is always a good idea because it opens another avenue of stack domination (also in case one is countered). The same reasoning applies if you have extra blue cards in the graveyard. Keep them there, so that you can try to Flash again if the opponent counters the first one.

ExpectLess

08-25-2005, 05:05 PM

Why no Brain Freeze in the SB? I've wished for it enough before that I think it has merit there. It helps the game not be unbearably long and also is good if you only have a wish left mid-combo.

T is for TOOL

08-25-2005, 05:11 PM

If you ever need to Wish for Brainfreeze, you can do so after removing one with Flash of Insight. If you're in mid-combo, you should be Wishing for draw or untap effects anyway, like Meditate, Stroke, and Turnabout. Can you elaborate more about a situation where you needed to Wish for it? I have never run into that problem.

noobslayer

08-25-2005, 07:36 PM

Does stifle deserve a slot in the board? I'll be testing it in the chain of vapor slot. What are otehr thoughts on this? Should the mirror match become much more rpevelant, is this a viable option?

T is for TOOL

08-25-2005, 09:02 PM

Both Stifle (unless they are targeting Fetches) and Gaea's Blessing are obselete hate cards. They do nothing to disrupt the combo and take up valuable SB slots. Especially in the mirror, you want to dominate the stack, so you should focus on going off at an opportune time, such as in response to a Brainstorm or Meditate. The only way to win the mirror is to outplay your opponent. Also, it becomes dangerous to try and optimize your hand after the fourth or fifth turn, as they can combo in response. The key to this match is who can consistently make their land drops. Although, if they are running crap like AK, Intuition, or Mystical Tutor, that certainly helps too. Twincast and Flash of Insight are really good here.

amightyhippy

08-26-2005, 04:38 AM

Hi all,

I've been following the thread for a while now, and have been inspired to pick up the deck (Resets arrive today!!).

Here's the build I'm running, I have to confess I ripped it straight off this board:

I was hoping you might be able to answer some questions and give me a few pointers.

1) Ideas unbound - no one seems to be running it, I was thinking of squeezing them in to replace two of the opts. Has anyone else tried this yet?

2) I seem to be drawing excess lands too often. I don't know if this is just a quirk of the deck, I've noticed some lists run more fetchies, but I'm worried about putting myself in burn range of some of the R/G decks around.

3) How have you found the deck to play in longer tournaments? It would seem to be a fairly skill intensive deck to play, and as those rounds drag by mistakes can be made through simply being worn out. Is the deck quite forgiving or will a single mistake throw the game away.

4) How popular is the deck, should I be expecting mirror after mirror (like landstill), and if so what do people bring in from the board for games 2&3.

T is for TOOL

08-26-2005, 07:59 AM

1) Ideas Unbound is a sorcery. Not only is this a dead draw when going off, but it's not even card parody as you must discard 3 after you use it. In the sorcery speed versions, this card is really good. Here, however, not so much.

2) The ratio of lands vs. nonland cards should determine the average number of lands you draw. In this deck, the ratio is 3 to 7, so excess lands shouldn't be an issue. I usually spend the first couple turns ensuring that I can simply drop a land every turn. Maybe you just need to randomize more?

3) The deck requires the abillity to calculate fairly accurately so it can become draining during a long tournament. Unfortuantely the deck is only 'forgiving' once you have enough mana and draw in hand to cover any mistake you may have made. It's important not to misplay the order of spells when trying to combo, or enemy disruption/bad Meditates can ruin your day. However, the ability to manipulate the stack can also work in your favor against a tired opponent.

4) I saw several variations of the deck at the World Championship although most of them were suboptimal builds. I only actually played the mirror once in the 6th round (Gladiel?) and I sided:

-2 Thrist for Knowledge
+2 Twincasts

You can't really side in permanents as SB hate, and there aren't any really good hate spells either. The mirror comes down to making more land drops and correctly timing the combo.

You should try Twincast. It's nuts. :) You could try to replace the Mystical Tutors with them...

1) Ideas unbound - no one seems to be running it, I was thinking of squeezing them in to replace two of the opts. Has anyone else tried this yet?

No, 'cause it's a Sorcery. This deck only runs Instants, because it has to go of on the opponent's turn. Sorceries wouldn't work, although there is a Sorcery Speed version of this deck called Spring Tide which runs Ideas Unbound...

2) I seem to be drawing excess lands too often. I don't know if this is just a quirk of the deck, I've noticed some lists run more fetchies, but I'm worried about putting myself in burn range of some of the R/G decks around.

Well, you already run seven fetchlands. That should be enough. My build runs six fetchlands and it works fine.

4) How popular is the deck, should I be expecting mirror after mirror (like landstill), and if so what do people bring in from the board for games 2&3.

Well, I guess, this depends on your meta, I can't tell you anything about that... Here in Germany, nobody is playing Solidarity... :D

amightyhippy

08-26-2005, 09:48 AM

Nice one guys, cheers for the replys,

I missed the fact that Ideas Unbound is a sorcery, which was pretty stupid of me!!

A couple of people have mentioned manipulating the stack. I don't completely understand what you mean by that. I understand that you can continue to combo after counterspells/geas blessings effect go on the stack - is thIs what you mean?

Ewokslayer

08-26-2005, 09:52 AM

Since everything in the deck is an instant the stack is yours to control.
Essentially, the stack is your bitch.
You can respond to anything your opponent does and you should take advantage of that.
Don't let spells or abilities of any kind resolve before you want them to.

T is for TOOL

08-26-2005, 10:13 AM

The fact that you can combo at instant speed means that you can let some spells resolve at a time that is beneficial for you. Some examples of stack manipulation are:

1) Brainfreeze in response to a Gaea's Blessing trigger.
2) Your Meditate is countered, so you respond with Twincast, targeting Meditate, continue to go off, find a Force, use it to Force the counter that has been sitting on the stack this whole time and then allow the original Meditate to finally resolve.
3) Opponent Brainstorms/activates Sylvan Library/etc. combo with the draw on the stack and Freeze them so they deck when their draw spell/ability resolves.
4) Combo in response to Standstill, then allow Standstill to resolve and Brainfreeze them. Standstill triggers, then Storm triggers, they are milled, then they deck when they draw 3.
5) Flash of Insight flashback while Brainfreeze copies are on the stack are targetting you
6) High Tide, they counter, respond with High Tide, then Brainstorm/Impulese/Opt, find a Force, Force counter allowing the original High Tide to resolve before you cast Reset.

There are many more examples. but this gives the general idea. As you play more matches, you will run into new situations where the ability to respond to anything your opponent does is a boon.

Yeah, what Ewokslayer said.

l_neiman

08-26-2005, 12:55 PM

Here's a total noobish question, but since I haven't been playing with Twincast I'm not sure: if I Twincast a Brainfreeze does it also copy the Storm copies, or just the main spell? So, rephrasing, is it ever worth Twincasting a Brain Freeze?

By the way, T is for Tool, your last post was really helpful. I've believed that the stack is the most broken element of Magic for years now, ;)!

Luis

Slay

08-26-2005, 01:02 PM

Twincast won't trigger Storm.
-Slay

Lego

08-26-2005, 07:40 PM

This is going to be a really noobish post, so if you hate those, skip this. I've been skimming through the enormous amounts of information on this deck, and I was wondering 2 things:

1) Is the decklist by Carlos on Page 1 still the commonly accepted list?
2) Why don't more people play this deck? Every matchup anaylsis I've seen lists this as one of their least favorite decks to play against. Is it just not played because it's so hard to pilot, or am I missing something big? It doesn't seem to die to a single counter, as many combo decks do. It doesn't lose to Gaea's Blessing. It has answers to other sideboard "Bombs" like Rule of Law and True Believer, right?

Obfuscate Freely

08-26-2005, 08:06 PM

The lists in the opening post of this thread are terrible. I think they always were, actually. Play the latest list posted by Deep6er.

There are several reasons Solidarity doesn't see much play. One of those reasons is because people play shitty lists and lose with it. Another reason is that it isn't very intuitive to play. Another reason is that Resets are kind of hard to find. And another reason is that some people simply don't like playing combo.

And the last reason, one that hardcore Solidarity players probably won't tell you unless you corner them and beat it out of them, is that the deck is dangerously close to being too slow for this format. It's fundamental turn is close to 4, perhaps a hair under. The fundamental turn of the format's fastest aggro decks (Burn and Goblins) is between 4 and 5, but those decks have so much hate available to board against this deck it's unbelievable. There's also the ugly little fact that combo decks do exist in Legacy that are a good 2 turns faster than Solidarity. Awful combo decks, but they do exist.

At GenCon, the most prevalent aggro decks by far were Burn and Goblins. And they were all packing Solidarity hate. Belcher actually showed up, too. Solidarity can (and did) do well in a field like that, but a few mistakes or a run of bad luck and you'll swear never to play the deck again.

Mr.C

08-26-2005, 10:07 PM

So, uh, what about Annuls in the board? Isn't that a good idea, supposing a meta of, say, affinity and lots of maindeck chalices?

Rogue

08-27-2005, 12:48 AM

@Mr. C - No. Rebuild would almost certainly be better, since chalice for 3 will almost never hit, and if it does, you can almost certainly ignore it. Unless for some reason you have no red in the meta, and can afford to lose all the blue blasts (i.e. affinity is present in lieu of goblins).

And the last reason, one that hardcore Solidarity players probably won't tell you unless you corner them and beat it out of them, is that the deck is dangerously close to being too slow for this format.
SOOOO true. Imho, in a meta with strong players, you have to play almost flawlessly to do well. Goblins and Landstill, on the other hand, are somewhat forgiving (at least more so).
As an aside, I really don't agree with the idea that resets being tough to access hurts the decks numbers. They cost no more than a dual typically, and if you really wanted to find them, you could (think Ebay). It's probably A reason, but I find it hard to believe that it is THE reason.

scrumdogg

08-27-2005, 12:29 PM

@Mr. C - No. Rebuild would almost certainly be better, since chalice for 3 will almost never hit, and if it does, you can almost certainly ignore it. Unless for some reason you have no red in the meta, and can afford to lose all the blue blasts (i.e. affinity is present in lieu of goblins).

And the last reason, one that hardcore Solidarity players probably won't tell you unless you corner them and beat it out of them, is that the deck is dangerously close to being too slow for this format.
SOOOO true. Imho, in a meta with strong players, you have to play almost flawlessly to do well. Goblins and Landstill, on the other hand, are somewhat forgiving (at least more so).
As an aside, I really don't agree with the idea that resets being tough to access hurts the decks numbers. They cost no more than a dual typically, and if you really wanted to find them, you could (think Ebay). It's probably A reason, but I find it hard to believe that it is THE reason.
Resets are the latest craze, which makes them more expensive than the good duals. Also, go on Ebay. There might be a dozen auctions with Resets. There are hundreds with duals. The card is hard to find, and the feeding frenzy surrounding it is only going to make it harder to get. However, Turnabouts are still fairly accessible & Ideas Unbound is in a current set in print, don't be surprised if a lot of people play a sorcery speed version of High Tide at Philly.... The good news is that these people don't have quite as much control over the stack....

Rogue

08-27-2005, 10:22 PM

Resets are the latest craze, which makes them more expensive than the good duals. Also, go on Ebay. There might be a dozen auctions with Resets. There are hundreds with duals. The card is hard to find, and the feeding frenzy surrounding it is only going to make it harder to get
*Horribly off topic response
While I agree with this to some extent, those auctions aren't being snatched up. I think the problem isn't a big deal right now, as I've seen auctions last for days with reasonable buy it now prices. As for the price, you can get 4 for $100. Thats about the same as underground sea. I think the problem is that once legacy season hits full swing, they may become wildly popular, and then it would be a serious issue.
*Back on topic
I was wondering how other players approach the landstill matchup. I tend to try to get access to at least one turnabout in case they try to tap out for fof or something on my turn, twincast spells in response to counters, and use resets with 7+ islands in play as pseudo high tides, while obviously trying to control the stack. What strategies work for you, how does it usually play out over the course of an entire game, does plaw/draw make a difference in the game?
I would like to thank Deep for revealing that amazing piece of tech. Very generous, and very effective.

Carlos El Salvador

08-28-2005, 12:36 AM

Anyhow, Yeah, My decklist on page 1 is not exactly awesome. I think Dave's list (BTW, it was awesome to meet you guys.) is the best. I did bad in the midnight 500 legacy (10th place with 3 color landstill). I think the deck is near close to perfect, but do not TOUCH Selfzer's list (it splashed white for Solitary Confinement in the sideboard... :( ) My friend was 1 life from winning VS him, but he was playing Psudo-angel stompy. On saturday night I got 3th in the 500 doller sealed the next night. Anyhow, sorry I have not been around. Good Testing!

Ewokslayer

08-28-2005, 08:37 AM

I think the deck is near close to perfect, but do not TOUCH Selfzer's list (it splashed white for Solitary Confinement in the sideboard... )
The Confinement board is excuseable as I can see what he was trying to do. It's very similar to the "Man Plan" in Tooth and Nail in Standard, make all their hate cards dead.
The problem with that is:
Confinement lock isn't really faster than Solidarity going off,
most decks aren't slowed down significantly by their hate cards because they usually have so many dead cards game one,
Wasteland is now a threat
Confinement isn't a hard lock without Squee
Squee is useless with Confinement.
I think alot of the reason that Selfzer went with this board is because he saw Deep6er get rolled by burn in the swiss of the GPT due to very poor hands on his part and excellent play by his opponent and just assumed the matchup was horrible.

There is however no excuse for Chrome Mox in the deck as it is neither an instant, an island or a good card.
Maybe he should play Mystical tutors as well; that way it's possible for him to get a opening hand with Force, Mox, and Tutor and just kick the Card Advantage Gods in the junk.

MattH

08-29-2005, 02:50 AM

Mox is inexcusable but with only 2 Tundras, Wasteland is only rarely going to be an issue, and the Confinement/Squee plan makes sense when you realize he has Intuitions to find the lone Squee.

It's still bad, because Intuition is itself terrible, but if Intuition is already there Squee/Confinement makes a lot more sense.

herbig

08-29-2005, 03:17 AM

Yeah that deck is all sorts of bad. AK/Intuition... Chrome Mox... Fact or Fiction? Where the hell did he read about Solidarity?

Edit: That was a joke.

Braves54321

08-29-2005, 11:05 AM

Thread cleaned up. This is not a sales forum, advertise your cards for sale elsewhere.

SpikeyMikey

08-29-2005, 11:33 AM

Here's what I'm running right now. Granted, I don't have the long time and testing that other Solidarity players have, but it's been working out well for me:

One quick question that I have for the more experienced Solidarity players: Why Rebuild. I've seen it in everyone's board, so I left it in mine, although I've never had a situation come up where I needed it, nor do any come immediately to mind. What's it for?

So on to the obvious changes. Not a big fan of TfK and Flash of Insight, While Thirst is useful, letting you see 3 new cards and pitch 2 useless lands while comboing, I don't think it's strong enough to make the cut. Without TfK, Flash is junk. Mystical, on the other hand, is not only useful mid combo, but also for setting up the combo. While it's not as good as Merchant Scroll is in Spring Tide, it's still pretty damn good.

The only real downside to this listing is the loss of Opt hurts sometimes in the first couple turns when it's absolutely imperative not to miss a land drop. Any thoughts?
He might have got the bit about Intuition/AK and the idea for white splash there. I doubt it, because I don't think he reads the boards here, but I figured I'd point out that his ideas weren't that far off what's already been tried. The Confinement/Squee in the board is cute, paired with Intuition, but I have to agree with Ewok, it's not a solid enough transformational board to be worth running. What might be an interesting consideration, given the complete death of Pox, would be to run a transformational board into XLU, something like:

Against Fish, or any deck depending heavily on equipment to get their damage across, Shackles is a wrecking ball, and the extra counters help. Makes me miss Trenches with it's Lightning Angel/FtK/Rakavolver board into Miss America. This would give you a board to effectively neuter your very worst matchup, although it would leave you more vulnerable to solid hate from red decks post board. The real question becomes do you expect to see 4xREB and 4xPyrostatic Pillar in red boards at GP Philly, or do you think it'll be something a little easier to handle?

Lego

08-29-2005, 12:27 PM

Assuming you do expect to see 4xREB and 4xPyrostatic Pillar, what do you run? I've got the maindeck mostly figured out, and the wish targets in the side, but what do you run to combat the hate? Is Chill all we have?

Pyrokinesis

08-29-2005, 01:55 PM

You don't play cards that aren't instants unless they happen to be land. A sideboard for Solidarity is really just eight cards due to the Wishboard. Most of the time that's just taken up by Blue Blasts. Stifle... might be useful, but I'd recommend only running one so that you can Wish for it (which with two Islands you can probably do, assuming that the other Tide player has played a High Tide.)

Sideboarding vs. Red starts with taking out the Force of Wills for Blasts. The rest depends on your deck - just take out whatever draw spells are weakest and put in Blasts.

Lukas Preuss

08-29-2005, 01:57 PM

Assuming you do expect to see 4xREB and 4xPyrostatic Pillar, what do you run?

You should be running some blasts in your Sideboard, as well... :)

Look at Deep6er's decklist... he runs 8 blue blasts in the sideboard against red hate...

I personally like the 20 land and have replaced opt with peer through depths, since I won't be missing landdrops that often now and peer is very nice in finding anything but land and works real smooth in combo. I don't quite see why he is so fond of cunning wish though since I always felt it was rather clunky. I really like the mana short in his sideboard though.

That sideboard is awful. It is even worse than the Confinement/Squee board. At least that would when the game when it resolves against most decks. Shackles just eats up a turn and your mana. And 1 random disk? WTF?

One, his Solidarity listing was terrible. Twincast is no bueno, you need to main more than a single Freeze, and his board needed some work. Twincast is what they refer to as a skill-tester. That means it sucks mass ass, but it looks like it'd be a good card. Thing is, it's utterly useless pre-combo, where you want to curve out every turn casting dig spells to assemble a godly hand. Post combo, there's very little that you want to Fork. You should be sitting on enough draw spells that you'll never need to Fork a dig card. Forking a High Tide is only effective when you're talking about the second, third, or fourth Tide you cast, at which point, it's kind of pointless. If you're going off on turn 4, which is usually when you've got a solid enough hand to be assured that you won't fizzle, Forking a Tide leaves you with a mere 3 mana available in one Island, i.e. not enough to Turnabout with. Forking an untap spell will provide you with a **** ton of mana, but in all honesty, I've never fizzled with Solidarity. If you're running out of mana, you're either trying to go off on two lands, or you simply bypass every untap effect and Cunning Wish you see when going off. Either way, if you're that inept, you shouldn't play the deck
Could you sound more arrogant and asinine with your skill tester statement?

I don't know what you have been testing, but Twincast is wonderful in Solidarity. It prevents stalling and improves your control matchup.

@ Zvi's Build
It's very similar to Deep6er's Build. Though the board is significantly different.
I don't like the one Brain Freeze main plan. It seems that would weaken the control matchup slightly and I don't think it gains all that much from the additional land.

herbig

08-29-2005, 04:10 PM

Personally, I think Zvi's list looks very good, although I'd say four Twincasts are too many. I'd cut two of them for two Brainfreeze, since your not always going to be able to go nuts and cast your whole deck. Also, I'd cut one cunning wish and a land for something else, preferably flash or peer. Despite everyone loving flash, I've become quite fond of peer, and flash seems a lot like a win more card. Just my thoughts on it. Another idea: back when I was running Mystical Tutor, which isn't good, I had one maindeck Mana Severance. I was thinking about using a sideboard of three more Severances and four Charbelchers. Basically sideboard out the Resets and Meditates for them. You can still semi-combo fourth turn at sorcery speed to generate the mana to pull it off.

scarface

08-29-2005, 07:13 PM

I don't play a lot of solidarity but I'm thinking about running it at my local tournament. My question is, in a meta with absolutely no high tide combo (I haven't seen solidarity played down here in ages, but landstill and the rest of the upper tier are all show up regularly), would I be better off running spring tide or solidarity? With cards like merchant scroll and ideas unbound, I think that spring tide can be much more consistent than solidarity. Is solidarity more popular than its socery-speed cousin only because it's an automatic win for solidarity when the two are matched up together? I know the pros and cons of both have already been discussed thoroughly on this thread, but I think mine is a special case, as I know I won't get paired up against solidarity.

Another idea: back when I was running Mystical Tutor, which isn't good, I had one maindeck Mana Severance. I was thinking about using a sideboard of three more Severances and four Charbelchers. Basically sideboard out the Resets and Meditates for them. You can still semi-combo fourth turn at sorcery speed to generate the mana to pull it off.
The belcher idea is interesting, but you'd need at least two belchers to kill them that turn, as by the time you have the mana to play out the combo, you probably would have gone through a lot of your deck, and the severance would leave you with less than 20 cards. Plus, you'd probably end up clogging up your hand with excess combo parts before you are able to go off.

ExpectLess

08-29-2005, 07:20 PM

Honestly, you don't need 20 lands in the deck. So many people give me questioning looks when I tell them I run 18 considering how vital it is to hit land drops, but if you're running 4 Opt you have more than enough to hit a land drop every turn. Between 18 lands, Opt, Brainstorm, and Impulse, half of your deck can potentially net you lands.

4 is too high for Twincast and Cunning Wish in Zvi's build though. They're slightly conditional and slightly clunky, and you usually never want to see two in your hand. Refer to Deep3er's build to get the optimal Solidarity build (with the exception of I drop the Flash's for Tutors. I don't care what you say, Tutors make the deck goldfish faster and I'm in a meta filled with goblins/burn, so it does make a difference)

And with regards to the Solidarity v. Spring Tide, Solidarity is soooo much better. The stack can be pretty broken and Solidarity takes advantage of this in ways that sorcery speed can only dream. The ability to go off in response to lethal damage, for example, is stupidly good. You might be able to potentially go off quicker with Spring Tide, but the fact that you don't have to (depending on the matchup and your hand) with Solidarity gives it much more versatility that more than makes up for the card choices for instant speed.

T is for TOOL

08-29-2005, 07:32 PM

What matchup does the Severance-Belcher SB improve? Also, how is Flash of Insight win-more?

@scarface
You should run Sorcery speed High Tide if you have a lot of aggro, and Instant speed High Tide if there is more control.

@ExpectLess
Tutor is junk and it doesn't improve the clock of the deck significantly. If your meta is Goblins/Burn, you should be running Sorcery Speed anyway.

scarface

08-29-2005, 08:25 PM

What is it that makes sorcery speed less desireable in the control matchup? I would have thought the ability to turnabout your opponent eot would have given it you advantage. Of course, I've never tested the matchup so I wouldn't know for sure. What would an instant speed tide do against control that a sorcery speed wouldn't be able to?

Slay

08-29-2005, 08:53 PM

Spring Tide is immensely reliant on a High Tide. Because of Reset's strength, if you counter a High Tide, the Solidarity player can make 6-7 mana to go find another High tide and a untap effect. Spring Tide does not have that luxury.
-Slay

troopatroop

08-29-2005, 09:59 PM

Spring Tide also can lose to spot removal.

Player 1: High tide
Player 2: ok...
Player 1: High tide
Player 2: ok...
Player 1: Cloud of Faries
Player 2: ok...
Player 1: Snap...
Player 2: In response, STP/Bolt/Dart/Incinerator/Fanatic/etc

I would just play Solidarity, as it's more redundant and only loses to hate in SB's and a first turn unanswered Lackey.

T is for TOOL

08-30-2005, 12:16 AM

Spring Tide also can lose to spot removal.
It still has a much stronger game than Instant speed against Goblins/Burn.

I would just play Solidarity, as it's more redundant
Explain. Sorcery Speed High Tide runs just as many untap effects, stronger draw spells, and the powerful tutor Merchant Scroll.

MattH

08-30-2005, 02:18 AM

Spring Tide is immensely reliant on a High Tide. Because of Reset's strength, if you counter a High Tide, the Solidarity player can make 6-7 mana to go find another High tide and a untap effect. Spring Tide does not have that luxury.
-Slay
As noted, Sorcery Tide also has a MUCH MUCH easier time finding the Tides, because of Merchant Scroll. In fact, in my own playing, I've even sideboarded one Tide to Wish for, giving me nine "Tides" (3 Tide, 3 Scroll, 3 Wish)*. You could feasibly go up to eleven Tides, which is a huge pro over Instant Tide.

* somehow I actually only own 3 scroll and 3 wish. I would fit in the fourth Scroll somehow if I had it but perhaps not the Wish.

SpikeyMikey

08-30-2005, 03:14 AM

Could you sound more arrogant and asinine with your skill tester statement?

I don't know what you have been testing, but Twincast is wonderful in Solidarity. It prevents stalling and improves your control matchup.
I'll work on sounding a little more arrogant. Twincast is shit. Utter shit. Complete and total... Well, you get the picture. Here's why.

One: Your control matchup is good anyways. There's no pressure to go off early and the only "key" spell which has to resolve is Brain Freeze, so unless they're packing Stifle, you just run them out of counters and then deck them anyways. The only matchups where counterspells are actually scary is when they're backed with a clock, which is why fish/gro decks are such horrible, abysmal matchups for Solidarity. It's rare for Landstill to have both a high counter capability and a high threat density, simply because it doesn't run 15 counters and 18 creatures, it runs 10 and 7. It runs 4 free counters as opposed to 12. It doesn't have a fast lethal damage potential with Umezawa's Jitte. So barring hell freezing over, the sky falling, and pigs flying out my ass all at the same time, Landstill isn't going to pressure you. Not until turn 8 at the earliest, because they're not attacking in the early turns, they're trying to keep mana open in case you try going off. If your opponent is tapping out on turn 4 to double beat with factory, they're putting pressure on you sure, but they'd better be sitting on double force back up and have some recovery power in addition.

Two: Twincast is situational. Forking a Tide is generally useless, because on 4 lands, it leaves you with 3 mana available in your one Island, unless you're talking about forking a second or subsequent Tide, at which point, you're just masturbating anyway. Or you can fork it on 6 mana, where instead of a mere 10 mana available from the Tide, you've got 9 in your 3 untapped... Oh wait, that's not really beneficial either. Well, if you have 7 lands, then instead of 12 mana, you've got... 12 mana in 4 lands. So if you have 8 lands in play or you're forking tide #2... Well, you don't need that much mana. Forking an untap effect is a similar "win more" play, and if you ran more for actual draw than just 3 Meditates, you wouldn't need to fork a draw spell either.

Even in that instance, the only suitable Fork targets are Impulse and Meditate, since Forking a Brainstorm or Opt is a waste of mana, and Forking TfK or Words of Wisdom isn't much better. The number of situations where Twincast is better than Mystical Tutor is so infinitesimally small it's hardly worth discussing the merits. Twincast lets you copy any card in your hand. Tutor lets you cast any card in your deck. If you don't have a draw spell to find the card you're tutoring for, then you're not doing much with twincast either. So Twincast is better only in the event that you're incredibly tight on mana and you only have 2 or 3 cc dig spells to get the tutored card into your hand, and you already have a copy of said card in hand, or if you need to cast something twice and there are 0 copies left in your deck but one in your hand. Or, as you mentioned, if you desperately need a counterspell, have the mana open to Twincast their counter, they don't have another counter back up, and you still have enough resources left to go off. Or you know, you could do what good players do, and bait the counters out with things you don't absolutely need to resolve. You know, like two thirds of your deck. And of course, Twincast is not very good precombo, where your only playable option would be to fork an Impulse, since Meditating precombo is kind of like shooting yourself in the foot. I guess you could fork a Brainstorm on turn 3, to dig 4 cards down, kind of like a paraplegic, retarded, comatose version of Impulse.

Three: Guess what else prevents stalling? Running a decent listing. Ya know, I just don't seem to have problems with fizzling with Solidarity, despite my "subpar" listing. The only real problem I ever had with the deck, outside of game 1 vs. a few random decks that just rape it, is building a good sideboard.

The idea for an XLU transformational board is just something I threw out there, because it seems like it'd help reverse negative matchups, like goblins post board and fish/gro matchups. You negate the hate they bring in for you by boarding out most of the combo pieces and bring in methods to control what elements they still have that are threatening, namely, their fast creature based clock, as well as an additional 4 all-purpose counters. It works much like the old Trenches transformational board, game 2, when they've boarded out all their creature hate against the creatureless deck, you bring in a bunch of fast creatures. Same concept. Nobody is going to have disenchant game 2 against solidarity, or pithing needle or anything else like that. They will bring in REBs(don't affect shackles), Pyrostatic Pillar(doesn't affect you using shackles to steal goblins with), Arcane Lab/Rule of Law (which is now no more effective than it would be against any other control deck), In the Eye of Chaos(doesn't affect shackles), etc. You can't completely avoid all the hate, since some of it is just aimed at blue instants, but shackles gives you an excellent tool to surprise your opponent with. As far as the "one random Disk" that's there because it was off the top of my head and "one random Disk" seemed better than "one random Mana Leak". You do run 20 or so dig spells, last count, one random Nev's Disk isn't really that random. Zvi planned on finding his "one random Brain Freeze". I wouldn't imagine that running a xfermational board would require cutting any of the dig, it'd probably be something like -2 High Tide -3 Reset -1 Brain Freeze -3 Meditate, assuming you're running my listing. You'd still have some(hampered) ability to combo out, as well as the stronger option to simply run mono-u control with 4 Shackles.

I really don't want to get into a fight with you on the boards, because I *just* got a warning removed for good behavior, and I'd like to know what it's like to not be maxed out for a little while at least, but if you're going to drag posts from other boards here and then call me names, I'm going to defend myself.

T is for TOOL

08-30-2005, 04:12 AM

This whole matter can easily be cleared up using deductive logic. What is deductive logic you ask? Well, here's a simple example to demonstrate the concept:

Fact
Grouchy bears are dangerous

Fact
IBA is a grouchy bear

Therefore
It is probably not a good idea to pull IBA's tail

Simple huh? Now we apply deductive logic to the situation at hand.

Fact
Major tournaments tend to be won by good decks

Fact
Good decks tend to run good cards

Fact
High Tide is a good deck

Fact
David's High Tide lists have won at least two major tournaments

Fact
David's High Tide lists run Twincast

Therefore
Twincast is a __ card.

I'll let you all connect the dots here.

Most control decks are running 8-10 counters and a bunch of creature removal spells. You're creating dead cards(Plow/Wrath) and if you hit them with 3 or 4 "must counter" spells in a row, one of them is going to hit play. If you're good at counter-baiting, you can fuck a control player's world up.

Or you know, you could do what good players do, and bait the counters out with things you don't absolutely need to resolve.
Now surely the flames are awaiting
To instantly Twincast your hating
Your spells are ALL vital
So you win the title
Of unchallenged master at baiting.

Edited By T is for TOOL on 1125393776

Zilla

08-30-2005, 05:46 AM

I really really hate to do this, because that was very cleverly put... but deductive logic doesn't go all that far in really examining the true nature of the concepts being discussed. Isn't it possible that a good deck can contain bad cards? Hell, Fish is a good deck and it only contains bad cards (Jitte not withstanding). Using the same deductive reasoning, could it then be assumed that because David's list has won a major tournament, there is in fact no room for improvement in the deck whatsoever, barring the printing of new cards? Were his winning lists identical to one another? If not, then doesn't the deductive reasoning fall apart, since both builds placed well, despite their running different cards?

Don't get me wrong; I agree that Twincast is a good card for the archetype. Solidarity was the first thing that came to mind when I saw the card on the spoiler. That said, I don't feel that deductive reasoning alone is a strong enough argument for unequivocable support for the card's inclusion.

IBA is a grumpy bear though. SUPER grumpy.

T is for TOOL

08-30-2005, 06:15 AM

Deductive logic can be used to prove anything you want it to. However, to continue in the vein of my last post, mystical tutor is a bad card and twincast is a good card. I suppose it would have been more accurate to state that both versions of the deck have been seen at larger tournaments, yet the versions running Mystical Tutors do worse than those that don't. At the same time, versions running Twincast do better than those that don't. Deductively, Twincast > Mystical Tutor. I had initally included these arguments in the former post, but I thought that they added more length than substance, and so they were deleted. I determined that Twincast is an excellent card in High Tide not only on personal experience playing with it, but also the results it has given. Likewise, I found Mystical Tutor underwhelming, and it has no positive results to reinforce its inclusion in the deck.

Ewokslayer

08-30-2005, 07:58 AM

The only matchups where counterspells are actually scary is when they're backed with a clock, which is why fish/gro decks are such horrible, abysmal matchups for Solidarity.
Twincast helps those matchups too. Can you say the same for Mystical Tutor?
Mystical Tutor is card disadvantage. This deck doesn't like that at all.
In fact there are almost no bad matchups that Twincast doesn't improve in some fashion.

The idea for an XLU transformational board is just something I threw out there, because it seems like it'd help reverse negative matchups, like goblins post board and fish/gro matchups. You negate the hate they bring in for you by boarding out most of the combo pieces and bring in methods to control what elements they still have that are threatening, namely, their fast creature based clock, as well as an additional 4 all-purpose counters. It works much like the old Trenches transformational board, game 2, when they've boarded out all their creature hate against the creatureless deck, you bring in a bunch of fast creatures. Same concept. Nobody is going to have disenchant game 2 against solidarity, or pithing needle or anything else like that.
Then wouldn't the Confinement/Squee board be stronger as it would win the game when it comes down? Going with 4 shackles isn't going to give you an advantage in the Goblins matchup and now you have significantly hampered your way of winning which still is decking them. It's like having a Tooth and Nail Man Plan of just walls. You aren't changing how you are winning you are just stalling.

As far as the "one random Disk" that's there because it was off the top of my head and "one random Disk" seemed better than "one random Mana Leak". You do run 20 or so dig spells, last count, one random Nev's Disk isn't really that random. Zvi planned on finding his "one random Brain Freeze".

Zvi planned on finding the Brain Freeze during the combo, when Solidarity draws most of the deck. Playing 20 spells and then playing a lethal Brain Freeze seems a lot stronger than playing 20 spells to slap down a board sweeper that has a 1 turn time delay.

Your control matchup is good anyways. There's no pressure to go off early and the only "key" spell which has to resolve is Brain Freeze, so unless they're packing Stifle, you just run them out of counters and then deck them anyways. ... So barring hell freezing over, the sky falling, and pigs flying out my ass all at the same time, Landstill isn't going to pressure you. Not until turn 8 at the earliest, because they're not attacking in the early turns, they're trying to keep mana open in case you try going off. If your opponent is tapping out on turn 4 to double beat with factory, they're putting pressure on you sure, but they'd better be sitting on double force back up and have some recovery power in addition.
I have to say that this might explain the differences in testing that we seem to be having. Your Landstill opponents appear to suck at playing against Solidarity.

ChemEng

08-30-2005, 08:02 AM

Fact
Major tournaments tend to be won by good decks
The flaw of this argument is in the first statement. Major tournaments tend to be won be good decks. The question then becomes, how do you decide that a deck that won a tournament is good or not? Your deductive reasoning did not give a basis to evaluate that claim.

I would say that the argument is at best inadequate to explain Twincast versus Mystical Tutor.

Ive won a small tournament with this deck (Mystical Tutor version :) ). The problem is that if you run Twincast, you are diluting the draw power of your deck by reducing the number of cards that are individually useful. The trade that you make is to be able to double the effectiveness of another card at the cost of reducing the individual card power.

Its pretty clear to me from above that Twincast works when you are already in a winning position.

The same argument cant really be applied to Mystical Tutor though because the trade is temporal in nature to guarantee a card you need. It has set-up implications (as anyone who is first turn Tutored for Brainstorm so they can crack a fetchland on the second would know), as well as combo enabling potential (as anyone who has responded to a Meditate for another would recognize).

In my opinion, Mystical Tutor is an invaluable component of Solidarity. The consistancy it brings cant be generated through any other means.

amightyhippy

08-30-2005, 08:17 AM

Well to dip my toe into the twincast/Mystical tutor argument, I'll put in my two pennyworth. Noting that I'm pretty new to the archetype, I've tried out both. Twincast seems redundant a lot of the time then all of a sudden can really pull you out of a hole! Mystical tutor is ok most of the time but then abysmal - you draw it when you really want a draw effect and are stuffed. I'm starting to consider running one twincast maindeck, and a second in the sideboard. Mystical tutor allows you to get it if you need it - as does cunning wish. I'm considering dropping a single opt to run it, or failing that just swapping it for one of the tutors.

SpikeyMikey

08-30-2005, 09:48 AM

A few years back, a Battle of Wits deck won States in(I believe, and I'm too lazy to look it up) Utah. I certainly wouldn't say that BoW was a good deck in T2, it was tier 3 at best, and more like tier 6 or 7, back there with the PreCons. Zvi's Landstill listing was by no means optimal, and he placed T8 at Legacy Worlds. People place far too much importance on a deck placing once or twice at big tournaments. The only format in Magic where the best deck always wins is one where there is absolutely no randomization, 3 card monte.

Shackles does change your win condition, something the confinement set up does not. Shackles means you can beat your opponent to death with their own creatures. Confinement just stalls until you go off. I'm not even saying it's good, it's a suggestion I threw out for people to chew on because it occured to me as an interesting idea, the transformational board thing.

So let's get the opinion of a good Landstill player. I've got

High Tide
High Tide
Reset
Brainstorm
Meditate
Brain Freeze
Impulse

I've got 9 lands untapped and you have 4(we're assuming you're beating, otherwise I'll just wait til u have 3 cards left and pop your standstill ;) ) I open with Tide. Then a second Tide. Do you counter these? If you do, then I follow by casting Reset with 5 floating. If you don't then I probably go straight for Meditate since I've got 21 mana to play with. If you let the Reset go, now I've got 14 to play with, and I start with Meditate, if not, I Meditate anyway. If I find Reset, I Reset again, since you've had to use 3 counters thus far to stop 2 Tides and a Reset, meaning of the 10 cards in hand, you've got 6 left and are most likely out of counters, but at this point, even if you counter the Meditate with your 4th counter, just Freezing you is a strong option, since there have been 8 spells cast before this and in addition to a 7 card opening hand, 9 turns of draws and at least one 3 card standstill, you're down to 14 cards left in your deck at maximum, meaning that a subsequent freeze will kill you. Furthermore, I'm still left with Brainstorm and Impulse in hand, and on turn 9, it's unlikely that you've got lethal damage, because the only way you're swinging for lethal on turn 9 is if you've been swinging for 4 a turn since turn 4. If you're tapped out on turn 4, unless you've got double FoW, chances are, I went off then.

The hand could get better of course, you could replace Brainstorm with Mystical and Impulse with the AK3 I Intuitioned for early on, but that's neither here nor there.

Now I'd like someone to explain to me, citing specific points, why Twincast is "so good". I'd like to hear how you reasonably expect it to help against Fish. Does Twincast stop Meddling Mage? How about Voidmage? Does it seriously hamper Daze or Spiketail? Does it stop Jitte from beating your head in?

Give me something to work with, not "I've tested with Twincast and it's awesome, I don't stall because I put this card in" or "This listing won and it has Twincast in it, so therefore Twincast is good in Solidarity". Remember, there was a guy that won with 250 effin' cards and 4xBattle of Wits, and I think we can all reasonably agree that Battle of Wits is a Bad Card. I haven't seen a single effort to refute my argument, just people telling me I'm stupid for not seeing the amazing power of twitcast.

Ewokslayer

08-30-2005, 10:59 AM

That example isn't very meaningful.
You have made the assumption that Solidarity hasn't missed a land drop but Landstill has missed at least 2, even though Solidarity only plays 18 lands and Landstill 24.
You have also assumed that the Landstill deck didn't start attacking until turn 4. Why wouldn't Landstill attack turn 2 and 3, you certainly aren't going to go off in response to them tapping low?
I am not saying that Landstill is a bad matchup, but Games 2 and 3 you will need to be able to counter their mages and labs and Twincast helps you win the counter war.

scrumdogg

08-30-2005, 05:35 PM

SpikeyMikeys example assumed 8-9 lands, 4 untapped & 4-5 tapped to activate & attack (I believe). I don't know how Solidarity would not have missed ANY land drops (that is my main complaint about the deck, the need to desperately scramble just to hit land drops...). But if the game has gotten to that point, with a sculpted hand, Landstill has lost. I assume that this is Game 1, btw. The matchup gets much better when Landstill gets to SB & remove useless cards.

I agree with Twincast going into the deck, as it has been very good in different roles for me in tournament play & testing. Hell, the peace of mind alone os worth something, knowing that it can be a counter or a draw spell (including their draw spell....FoF for UU in response is sexy) or a Wish or untap effect... The multi-tasking nature of the card allows it to be very good despite not stopping Meddling Mage or Arcane Lab or actually doing anything by it's lonesome. If it is the only card left in your hand, you lost that game anyway :cool:

T is for TOOL

08-30-2005, 11:36 PM

The flaw of this argument is in the first statement.
The argument is that versions of the deck running Mystical Tutor have not performed as well as versions running Twincast. Deductive logic would indicate therefore that versions of the deck running Twincast are better.

Ive won a small tournament with this deck (Mystical Tutor version :) ). The problem is that if you run Twincast, you are diluting the draw power of your deck by reducing the number of cards that are individually useful.
That statement is flat out wrong. 'Reducing the number of cards that are individually useful' as you put it, does not reduce the draw power of the deck. The inherent card disadvantage in Mystical Tutor, however, does reduce the draw power of the deck.

The trade that you make is to be able to double the effectiveness of another card at the cost of reducing the individual card power.
Again this statement is flat out wrong. Twincast increases individual card power by strengthening whatever effects you currently have in hand as well as the ability to resolve them by dealing with counterspells. In fact, when you Twincast some spells you more than double their effectiveness by allowing more copies to remain in a deck that will have fewer cards in it when the original spell resolves. Not to mention that it costs 2, so will often be cheaper as well.

Its pretty clear to me from above that Twincast works when you are already in a winning position.
It also works when you are trying to win and in the process of winning. Can you say the same thing about Mystical Tutor?

The same argument cant really be applied to Mystical Tutor though because the trade is temporal in nature to guarantee a card you need.
... What are you talking about? temporal??? Don't make up buzzwords to describe bad cards. It's card disadvantage you lose a card that you don't get back. There's nothing 'temporal' about it.

It has set-up implications (as anyone who is first turn Tutored for Brainstorm so they can crack a fetchland on the second would know), as well as combo enabling potential (as anyone who has responded to a Meditate for another would recognize).
So you Tutor for a Meditate in response to a Meditate, drawing a Meditate. You then cast this Meditate, drawing another 4 cards. So 2U + U + 2U and you draw 8 cards, minus the ones you actually cast. -2 Meditate, -1 Tutor. So the net result is 4UUU for a 5 card advantage... or, you could cast Meditate, Twincast it, paying 2UUU and gaining 6 card advantage, and still leave another copy of Meditate in the deck to be drawn.

SpikeyMikey

08-31-2005, 02:15 AM

I've long felt that people place too much emphasis on card advantage. Or rather they misinterpret how card advantage theory works. There are two aspects to what I refer to as total card quality, pure card advantage, what most people see as the be all and end all of winning, and tempo. Demonic Tutor and Diabolic Tutor do exactly the same thing, neither generates card advantage although both generate card quality. The difference in casting costs is what makes one playable and the other shit. If you've got unlimited resources, there is no functional difference between the two.

Pre-combo, Mystical Tutor creates a tempo advantage. By allowing you to sculpt your hand, you are gaining an indefinite amount of tempo, which is perhaps why people don't figure this into their CA calculations. In the absence of dig spells, you could figure an average amount of tempo gain in terms of turns it would take you, on average, to draw the card you tutored for the natural way, or a functional replacement in the case of draw or untap effects. With random dig spells thrown in, that sort of calculation becomes too difficult for your average Magic player to make in their head. The fact remains however that as a general rule, you're going to gain an increase in tempo, despite -1 turn to draw the card you're tutoring for, assuming you don't have a cantrip effect in hand(unlikely).

Mid-combo, Mystical Tutor provides a functional card advantage(the combination of pure card advantage and tempo), although not any pure card advantage. Let me give you a few examples. Brainstorm is an excellent one. Brainstorm, with a shuffle effect afterwards has the potential to be as beneficial in terms of total card quality as Ancestral Recall. It won't always be that beneficial, sometimes the cards you're putting back aren't entirely dead, but it will give you a quality advantage 999 times out of 1000. Brainstorm without a shuffle effect afterwards will net you a short term benefit in terms of total card quality, but that will be negated when you redraw the 2 cards you put back. In effect, Brainstorm followed by a Mystical Tutor can net you an effective +1 CA(-1 Brainstorm, +3 cards drawn, -0 for dead cards put back, -1 for Mystical Tutor) even while it represents a -1 CA in terms of pure card advantage. Compare this for a moment to Brainstorm sans shuffle, which is a 0 CA in both terms of effective CA and pure CA. Further more, if you take a situation where your hand is something along the following lines

Brainstorm
Mystical Tutor
Opt
Meditate
Meditate

and you're sitting on 4 mana, if you're not casting tutor(let's say it's any other non-untap card in your deck. Twincast makes an excellent example) you need to have a Reset in the next 5 cards or you fizzle. While this doesn't change your pure CA at all, it changes your functional CA greatly, as at least 2 cards in your hand are dead, and therefore represent 0 functional CA, and in truth, 3 cards are dead, because if you Opt, then Brainstorm and Twincast it, nothing you draw will save you from fizzling. So in this situation, our hand represents -3 CA for cards we cannot possibly cast, barring a Reset near the top of our library. In this instance, Mystical Tutor still represents that -1 pure CA, but because Tutor for Reset and Opt into Reset means that we can then cast our Brainstorm and both Meditates, we've now erased that -3 in terms of functional CA. Functionally, we just netted +2 CA by using Mystical over Twincast.

All I've seen from the pro-Twincast side of the debate is fluff about how good Twincast is with either random intangibles(opponent casts FoF and you fork it) or how it synergizes with Meditate, but a synergy with a single card in your deck is a poor basis for inclusion. Note that I said synergy, not combo. Twincast is not the Donate to Meditate's Illusions. It is 5 mana for +6 pure CA, excellent, no doubt, but it doesn't win the game. Claiming that Twincast is good in Solidarity based on it's synergy with Meditate is much like the people years back that claimed that Predict was good, because it had good synergy with Memory Lapse.

Finally, the goal of Solidarity is not to gain pure CA, it is to generate a storm count of 13-14 for a lethal Brain Freeze. This is why Solidarity doesn't run Fact or Fiction or Deep Analysis or Opportunity. While these cards generate pure CA, as opposed to many of the cards in Solidarity that don't(all the dig except Meditate, and AK if you're sick like me), they are not effective for ramping storm count. Even if Mystical has done nothing more than allow you to add a few points on to that storm count by cheaply and effectively allowing you to draw low cc cantrip effects like Brainstorm, Opt, or Impulse, or to shuffle away functionally dead lands from a Brainstorm, it has still provided a valuable function to the deck. Without Meditate in hand, Twincast provides almost nothing towards your storm count, at double the resource cost of Mystical, unless you think that turning an Opt or Brainstorm into an Impulse counts as a significant stride towards achieving a lethal storm count. Even if Brainstorm provides 0 functional CA(you use it to fetch out a Brain Freeze, for instance), it's still furthering your real goal, the one you've forgotten in your rush to generate pure CA.... Winning the game.

herbig

08-31-2005, 07:56 AM

Mystical Tutor is bad.

Warned for spam. - Zilla

Ewokslayer

08-31-2005, 08:11 AM

Again I don't think your example is all that likely. It begs the question as to what the Solidarity player has been doing for the first 4 turns if he has an Opt, Brainstorm, and a Mystical Tutor still in hand?

I still think Mystical Tutor is a bad card, its shuffling effect is pretty much its only real selling point. However, Solidarity can get by without it via Impulse, Flash of Insight or if desperate Brain Freeze mid combo and pre-combo that is what fetchlands are in the deck for.

Twincast can copy other spells besides Meditate, it is only used as an example so much because it is so much cooler than the other opinions. But it is great at copying Reset, Cunning Wish, Stroke of Genius, and on occasion High Tide. It's the versatility of the card that makes it so great. Yes, Mystical can be any card in your deck, but you still need to then draw the card. Twincast is any card on the stack and with Solidarity's already huge ability to manipulate the stack, the card plays to the strength of the deck as opposed to Mystical which seems to highlight the fact that none of the cards but Meditate actually draws cards. Mystical also tends to be unnecessary as you can almost always find what you need via the 14 dig spells prior to having to combo off.

ChemEng

08-31-2005, 08:18 AM

Im afraid that I disagree with just about every part of your response Mr Tool.

1. I already shown where your Deductive logic is flawed, but you want to continue to use it. Thats fine. You could use the same logic path to explain against Twincast as well. Something like this:
a.Twincast is a powerful card.
b. Gadliel's Legacy Championship deck ran 4 Twincast in the main.
c. Therefore, Gadliels deck should be really powerful.
Unfortunately that wasnt the case, as he deck was trash as was reflected by his showing in the tourney. Gadliel has probably more play skill than most of us combined. So if he couldnt get them to work maybe its time to start looking at the cards he was using...

From a different angle then. You can not claim that one version of the deck is *strictly* better than another, like you are claiming, until you have a statistically significant sample space. I assure you that your claim that the decks performance in 2 tournaments fails this test as well. Keep trying...
2. Playing with Twincast does reduce the draw power of the deck. 2 main reasons come to mind with this. First, Twincast does not enable you to go off any faster than playing without it. In fact, I could see an argument developed where Twincast actually slows down the deck by reducing the number of options it can draw off the top in order to go off. Second, Twincast doesn do anything by itself. So for it to be remotely useful, it has to be used in some fashion of a 2 card combo. Granted, there are many of these "combos" present in the deck, it does increase the interdependence of pieces within the deck as opposed to simply increasing the strength of the individual pieces.
3. How can you argue with the fact that Twincast reduces the individual strength of cards in the deck in exchange for the power of doubling one of those spells? Thats exactly what Twincast does... Its never useful without another spell thereby reducing the individual card power of your deck as now instead of all your spells being individually powerful, some are now required to work in tandam. Its makes a HUGE difference.
4. To put it bluntly, Twincast does not make your hand any better than it would be without it. As much as you dont like Mystical Tutor, you would have to admit that it ALWAYS makes the hand its in better provided it can wait the draw to get it. You also place WAY too much importance on card advantage for this combo deck. In my testing, the deck's stability and reliability is much more important than its ability to generate raw card advantage. Card advantage is an important concept for longer game plans for strategies like Landstill; but with this deck, I want to win as early and as consistantly as possible. Mystical Tutor enables this. Twincast doesnt.
5. Mystical Tutor is an important part of the deck when its winning as I mentioned. It also plays the role of shuffling while mid-combo. Its possible that you put cards at the bottom of the deck with Impulse that are important to going off like additional Resets or Brain Freezes or whatnot. Without some mid-combo shuffler, they are stranded there. It may be a small plus, but this is another benefit that Mystical Tutor offers that Twincast doesnt.
6. Ummm... Temporal isnt a buzzword. ??? No, really. Look it up. Vocabulary is the tech. The temporal nature of Mystical Tutor is the one that trades a card in your present hand for one that you get the next time you draw. Again, I think that your reliance on a control decks understanding of card advantage is warping your perspective in this matter. 99.99% of the time when I am playing a combo deck, I will ALWAYS choose options that will increase my consistancy and reliability at the cost of reducing long term card advantage. I plan on winning on turn 3-4, not turns 15-16 where traditional card advantage strategies shine.
7. Are there any cases when Twincast is useful without Meditate? ??? Seems to be the common example sited... What happens when you draw multiple Twincasts? How do you manage those situations?

Regardless, this discussion is getting old. Keep playing with your Twincasts, and Ill keep beating you in tourneys with my Mystical Tutors like I have so far... :D

Ewokslayer

08-31-2005, 08:50 AM

a.Twincast is a powerful card.
b. Gadliel's Legacy Championship deck ran 4 Twincast in the main.
c. Therefore, Gadliels deck should be really powerful.
Unfortunately that wasnt the case, as he deck was trash as was reflected by his showing in the tourney. Gadliel has probably more play skill than most of us combined. So if he couldnt get them to work maybe its time to start looking at the cards he was using...

Gadiel's List ran Zero Twincasts. It did however run 3 Chrome Mox, 3 Intuition, 4 Accumulated Knowledge, and 1 Mystical Tutor in the board. From his performance and extensive testing it can be determined that those are bad cards in Solidarity.

Second, Twincast doesn do anything by itself. So for it to be remotely useful, it has to be used in some fashion of a 2 card combo. Granted, there are many of these "combos" present in the deck, it does increase the interdependence of pieces within the deck as opposed to simply increasing the strength of the individual pieces.
The same can be said for Mystical Tutor. During the combo it is only useful when coupled with a cantrip.

4. To put it bluntly, Twincast does not make your hand any better than it would be without it. Twincast improves your hand the same way that a second copy of Reset, Cunning Wish, High Tide, Meditate, etc do.

As much as you dont like Mystical Tutor, you would have to admit that it ALWAYS makes the hand its in better provided it can wait the draw to get it.
Mystical Tutor NEVER makes your hand better it makes the top card of your deck better. Waiting to then draw the card doesn't sound like something a deck that wins in one turn wants to do.

Regardless, this discussion is getting old. Keep playing with your Twincasts, and Ill keep beating you in tourneys with my Mystical Tutors like I have so far... Agreed, though how you play on beating a version of Solidarity that has a greater control of the stack I don't know.

scrumdogg

08-31-2005, 10:43 AM

Speaking on behalf of the combo-hating mass of magic players, I hope all of you and your decks spontaneously combust :cool: However, both sides make interesting and eloquent points. I have played with both cards and liked both cards. I can categorically state that playing with both at the same time is a huge mistake...but if I had to choose, I would run Twincast for it's versatility, especially as a pseudo-counter & Clone-drawspell versus control. Quite frankly, if I attempt to combo and I do not have or find a Meditate I am probably dead in the water anyway. The ability to get a second one is the last nail in the coffin, regardless of whether you get it via Twincast or Mystical Tutor.

Deep6er

08-31-2005, 11:38 AM

Ok, guys. We seem to have a little bit of an issue remembering that these comments here are NOT personal attacks. Calm down and rationalize the situation.

To start with, there are a couple of reasons why we here in NoVA believe that tutor is bad.
1) Card Disadvantage
2) It allows the control player to know exactly what was tutored up and can then reasonably infer what is the scarce resource in your hand (The cards he wants to counter)
3) Like twincast, mystical tutor is only good with another card mid combo. However, the difference is that twincast can be effective with multiple different cards whereas tutor MUST have a draw effect.
4) Mystical tutor in a metagame of gro(ish) decks that all pack predict is ridiculous.
5) Twincast has been more useful than tutor in helping bad matchups.

@ 1: We've been through the card advantage argument already just leave this one be. I include it because that's one of the reasons WE don't like it.
@ 2: I've found that one of the reasons that solidarity has good matchups against control are because they are unable to identify what the scarce resource in your hand is and thus their counters could be going after things you already are packed full of. For example, if your hand is High Tide, Reset, + strong draw methods and they choose from the beginning to counter the draw methods, then they are in the position of fighting a losing battle because draw methods were the strength of that hand. Now, let's look at it from the other side. Your hand is High Tide x3 Reset x2 Meditate then if they choose to counter the draw methods, you're boned. Mystical tutor allows them to make an educated guess about the scarce resource in your hand. Also, just in case you were thinking it, don't bother. Using Mystical Tutor to "fake" them out is not a good plan. If you're playing with tutor, then you want to use it to it's highest effective potential.
@ 3: Twincast doesn't ONLY have to be played on a meditate. I've twincasted resets when I was light on mana, Twincasted FoF's when I was out of draw methods (He FoF'd at the end of my turn and I went off in response) I've also twincasted my Hydroblast to destroy two troublesome permanents. I understand the sacrifice necessary to run twincast. Yes, it does very little pre combo (although twincasting predicts on the gro player is some good and a half) it truly shines mid combo where having another copy of any spell in your hand while still leaving one in the deck is absolutely amazing. Not to mention that I'm personally very fond of "Meditate, Twincasting it. The Twincasted Meditate resolves....I drew another Twincast :). With Meditate still on the stack I'll twincast it again :) :) :)."
@ 4: Gro and variants are all well represented in NoVA and thus so is predict. PREDICT SHOULD NOT BE A COUNTERSPELL THAT ALSO DRAWS THEM TWO CARDS!
@ 5: Twincasting spells in desperate situations (where gro can easily get you) might be the best way to get through their (relatively thin) counter wall. Twincasting their counterspells with spells on the stack that you want to counter (but don't have the force of will) is also a strong play.

Anyway guys, I have to go. I hope that this will help some of you non NoVA'ers to understand why we don't like mystical tutor and why we like playing with twincast so much.

MattH

08-31-2005, 01:31 PM

The argument is that versions of the deck running Mystical Tutor have not performed as well as versions running Twincast. Deductive logic would indicate therefore that versions of the deck running Twincast are better.
That's inference, not deduction, because no causal connection between the events has been shown. You've only got correllation.

Go back to logic class. :(

T is for TOOL

08-31-2005, 05:41 PM

@MattH
Thank you for trying to start an off-topic discussion about the definition of deductive logic in the Solidarity thread. Since it seems my initial half-serious post about deductive logic is taking the focus away from the merits of the Twincast vs. Mystical Tutor debate, this will be my last post where I reference it. That being said:

deduction noun
Logic.
The process of reasoning in which a conclusion follows necessarily from the stated premises; inference by reasoning from the general to the specific

Good job.

Obfuscate Freely

08-31-2005, 08:14 PM

I think it's important for everyone to realize how right SpikeyMikey is when he says that a Solidarity player shouldn't care too much about card advantage. Whatever advantage or disadvantage in cards you have over your opponent is meaningless when you aim to win the game in a non-interactive way.

Of course, taking sideboard hate into account, most decks in the format will try to force a Solidarity player to interact with them - and then CA can matter.

But there is another card-quantity-related problem with Mystical Tutor; it is simple card loss. Solidarity, like most storm combo decks, needs to chain together quite a few spells to win. However, less than half of the cards in the deck actually replace themselves, and you need to cast a good number of mana-generating spells while going off in order to function, so creating a lethal chain of ~15 spells poses a problem. Solidarity solves this problem with cards that more than replace themselves (Meditate), and by utilizing the natural buffer of cards you start with (your hand).

Thus, the argument is that the added consistancy is not worth the reduced resiliency. The optimization spells are sufficiently capable of assembling a winning hand, and they can even do it fast enough to beat aggro decks. Aggro decks, which you do actually goldfish, are the only decks against which you'd value consistency over resiliency, anyway, right?

If you want to compare that to Twincast, the important difference is that Twincast gives you a way to cast 4 more Meditates in a game, and it will never negatively impact your handsize when you can't afford it to.

Although, I don't really understand why the two cards are mutually exclusive. Obviously space in the decklist is at a premium, but running a copy or two of both Tutor and Twincast wouldn't be awful just because both were in the same deck.

MattH

08-31-2005, 10:47 PM

deduction noun
Logic.
The process of reasoning in which a conclusion follows necessarily from the stated premises; inference by reasoning from the general to the specific
You're half right - I used the wrong word; I meant to say induction. Deduction is the same as inference, but you're still not using deduction. You're using inductive logic.

in∑duc∑tion
1. The process of deriving general principles from particular facts or instances.

Obfuscate brings up a good point, but one thing that I think is being overlooked is matchups. Most any solidarity player will tell you that by turn 6, it really isn't all that hard to have everything you need to go off without mystical tutor. So clearly, mystical tutor is meant to increase early game redundancy, not late game. What are the early game decks in the format? Goblins and Burn. What does this deck sideboard specifically because those matchups are bad? 8 Blue blasts. Solidarity isn't meant to be fast. It's meant to be a good, hard to hate combo that can take on control decks, and that isn't too slow for the aggro decks, but similarly can't blow them out of the water. Tool already said it: if you play tons of Goblins and Burn, play Spring Tide. Talk about consistancy, I can't remember a game where I couldn't go off turn 4, what with 7 big draw effects, 10 untappers, and 9 high tides. By using mystical tutor, you are hurting the mirror, landstill, and survival matchups (RGSA is arbuable, particularly with burning wish, but it is becoming less common) to improve the speed against (presumably) fast aggro and faster combo. Faster combo is, for all intents and purposes, non existent. Faster aggro is addressed post board in a big way. Personally, I'd rather coin flip burn and goblins game 1 than fight an uphill battle in mirrors, ATS, and landstill game 1.

@ my old post: Still no strategy for the landstill matchup? :(

TheInfamousBearAssassin

09-03-2005, 01:54 AM

Even in that instance, the only suitable Fork targets are Impulse and Meditate
Nay.

Even aside from Cunning Wish, you haven't /lived/ until you've Twincasted a Flash of Insight for 18. The two strongest cards in my deck are in my hand, and the rest of my deck is stacked in any order I want? GG.

Carlos El Salvador

09-03-2005, 01:19 PM

Reasons why twincast is bad:
It dosn't really do anything in a microclasm of just itself.
It's Technically not card advantage.
It cannot copy the storm ability (Goes on stack once the spell with the ability is successfully cast, Twincast never is accually casting the spell).
Reasons why twincast is good:
Synergy with quite a few cards in the deck (Meditate, flash, Impulse, Cunning Wish, Untap effects, force of will)
Makes the aggro control matchups (Fish, Gro) A little bit better. (Moot point becuase those are the hardest matchups for the deck.)
Flexability. That is, It can become an additional of any key card in your hand at the time if you need it to be. If your going off on three lands and two tides, you may need that additional untap effect. Mystical tutor would only put it on top, so for mana tight decks (Like solidarity plays as sometimes) it will not help
Gains power from the oppoenets' best cards.

However, those are just opinions, and we all know what opinions are like.

I think This build is very strong, other than the fact that I have to keepa consistant track of what is in play and what is in the graveyard. The only thing I think that is truely underperforming is the sideboard Twincast and the third Thirst. I could cut one Thirst real quick, but I like having lots of hand optimizing spells. The sideboard twincast was one of only four targets that I didn't wish for. the other three are the Truth, Chains, and Stifle. My current SB stratagy VS red is -3 Thirst, -2 Twincast +5 blast. Thirst for knowledge has good synergy with the deck, especially with Flash of Insight (as opposed to casting it for 0-1, you can just dump it for any other card you just picked up.)

MasterBlaster

09-03-2005, 01:45 PM

First, to correct Carlos, he split for first.

Second, I can attest to the power of his list. His only loss(I think) was against fish.(But I came close to beating him)

Edit: But than again he should have done well. All he faced was aggro.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

09-04-2005, 03:25 AM

Mystical Tutor is bad.
Y'know, this is the most eloquent post on this topic I've seen thus far. Kudos, sir. Kudos.

herbig

09-04-2005, 03:52 PM

I've been playing Solidarity for awhile now and I just can't understand why there is still debate about the card. It just doesn't work. You miss land drops, cut your hand down a card, and really can only cast it when you've already got either a reset or high tide in your hand. I used to use it when I was playing a single mana severance, which was pretty cool, but proved totally unnecessary. Against control it will get countered and set you back a turn and against aggro you win anyway. On a side note, I've been testing with Flash of Insight, which I previously scorned, and I'm totally sold on it. It turns my Brainfreezes into card draw if I can't continue to combo, and casting it for zero while you're setting up doesn't give you any card disadvantage. I cut two Peer for them and plan to cut the Peers when I can get my hands on two Twincasts. I do have a question though, when I cast a Brainfreeze, do I have to announce their targets when they go on the stack or when they are resolved?

Pyrokinesis

09-04-2005, 10:37 PM

herbig: When they stack, as with anything else.

Awaiting my Cunning Wishes I slapped together a test build of this with two Twincast and two Mystical Tutor. Just goldfishing the Tutor isn't bad, as while setting up it's a lot better than just waiting for your cantrips to find Tides or untaps (Better one card down than just losing), and it can help midcombo to ensure you draw what you need. (If you would fizzle for its card disadvantage you'd likely do so anyway). Twincast is just as good, although you have to be careful about what you copy with it.
That all changes when the game is interactive.
As has been said, Aggro bows down to your one-player-game might, with or without Tutors (although they may help you find combo peices faster to race their damage). However, Control is a problem... Mystical Tutor doesn't help. At all.
The card disadvantage of Mystical Tutor is easily exploited by Control. Carrying a Tutor instead of a draw spell really, really hurts. If you resolve it they can just counter whatever else - and worse, they know what to counter. This opens the opportunity for bluffing... but if you can afford to do that you should be winning anyway.

There you have it. Mystical Tutor is good against beats. Mystical Tutor is absolutely wretched against permission. Permission is a huge problem for this deck. Beats have nothing on this deck.
Thus, Mystical Tutor does not belong. This argument should have been buried long ago, and I hope it already is.
Next order of business..?

P.S: Quit arguing about logic. If you want to insult each other, do it over PMs. Enough of that crap - this is The Source. Remember that.

amightyhippy

09-05-2005, 07:54 AM

I think it's time to drop the twincast vs mystical debate, if you're going to play one or the other then you'll do it regardless.

I was wondering about what is the worst hate people can bring in against the deck? It seems that mana maze, dosan and arcane lab are the nastiest. How would you deal witht them?

From personal playtesting I've found it's possible to go off n turn 3 (rare!), normaly turn 4-5. Surely by then goblins, sui-black and other uber-aggro decks will have killed the solidarity player long before then?

SpikeyMikey

09-05-2005, 11:43 AM

3) Like twincast, mystical tutor is only good with another card mid combo. However, the difference is that twincast can be effective with multiple different cards whereas tutor MUST have a draw effect.

If you don't have a dig effect when you're using Twincast, it's just as dead as Mystical Tutor. I'm failing to see the difference. Either way, running out of dig means you've fizzled, unless you've got a lethal Freeze in your hand, in which case, neither Twincast nor Mystical Tutor is particularly necessary.

Secondly, Twincast does not pair well with any of the dig other than Meditate, since you're not running Accumulated Knowledge. Twincasting Flash of Insight is cute, but unless you're Flashing for an ungodly number, Mystical Tutor and Brainstorm is always going to be better. Which is a stronger play, pulling 2 cards out of the top 10 cards to put in your hand, or finding any 1 card in your deck and drawing that instead? If you think that the 2 cards out of the top 10 is better, you might consider how Demonic Tutor and Desperate Research compare.

Twincast does not pair well with High Tide either. You could pair it with Reset, but it's not really a highly effective play, and here's why:

Let's assume that you have 4 lands, you've cast only a single Tide, and you still have 4 mana floating. You can either Reset and Twincast it, leaving you with 16 mana total available after they resolve. You've probably cast 5 spells at this point, Tide, 2 dig spells, the Reset and the Twincast. With 16 mana available and only another 9 spells or so necessary to generate lethal storm, it should be fairly a given that you can combo out.

At the same time, if you Reset, leaving the UU floating, you've got 10 mana, or at least another 4 dig spells, to find another untap effect. If you tutor up another Reset at this point, then Opt or Brainstorm into it, you're going to end up with a *mere* 14 mana, but you'll have played 7 spells(1 Tide, 2 dig, Reset, Tutor, 1 dig, Reset), meaning that your 14 mana has to accomodate 7 more spells to reach your Freeze, leaving you with a higher mana/card ratio than you'd achieve with Twincast. That is to say, if you never draw another untap effect again, the maximum average cc of the spells you cast before your Brain Freeze is 1.71 for Tutor and 1.55 for Twincast. In English,that means Mystical Tutor over Twincast means you've got more leeway on which spells you can cast in your attempt to generate lethal storm.

4) Mystical tutor in a metagame of gro(ish) decks that all pack predict is ridiculous.

While Gro is generally a bad matchup for High Tide based decks, I don't really think there's anyone out there that would disagree that if the Gro deck you're facing is running Predicts, it's a bad Gro deck. I'd be hesitant to base my decklist off bad decks with bad pilots. Additionally, if it's an incredibly heavy Gro/Fish field, I wouldn't be piloting Solidarity in the first place. Finally, even if I were to pilot Solidarity in a field filled with bad Gro decks, I run far more cheap dig spells than they run Predicts. Predict naming what I've tutored for and I'll simply Opt in response. Or AK. Or Impulse. Or Brainstorm.

I'll get to point 5 a little later on, but I've got shit to do this morning

SpikeyMikey

09-05-2005, 11:54 AM

The card disadvantage of Mystical Tutor is easily exploited by Control. Carrying a Tutor instead of a draw spell really, really hurts. If you resolve it they can just counter whatever else - and worse, they know what to counter.
This is such utter bullshit. I'm so sick of people using this argument. "They'll just counter it anyway", or "the card disadvantage will kill you".

So by your arguments, black decks shouldn't run Dark Ritual, cuz they'll just counter your first turn Hypnotic Specter anyway, or Plow it, and then the card disadvantage will kill you. Red decks shouldn't run Fireblast, because it'll just get countered anyway, and then you're out 2 lands. Oh, and while we're at it, why don't we run 4xPyroclasm in Sligh to deal with DoJ tokens, which are almost as scary as Predict in Gro... Seriously guys, are you reading what you type? Whether you believe it or not, card advantage is not the most important thing in Magic. Control decks can't counter everything. Tutoring for a card doesn't mean you don't have any of that particular piece, it just means you could use more. Solidarity doesn't lose to Landstill. Just a few things you might like to mull over while you're chanting your mantra of "Mirage Tutors are bad". I guess it doesn't really matter, if the logic hasn't hit you yet, it's not going to.

Obfuscate Freely

09-05-2005, 03:07 PM

If you don't have a dig effect when you're using Twincast, it's just as dead as Mystical Tutor. I'm failing to see the difference. Either way, running out of dig means you've fizzled, unless you've got a lethal Freeze in your hand, in which case, neither Twincast nor Mystical Tutor is particularly necessary.

Minor point here, but if you have only Cunning Wish and mana generating spells, Twincast is better than Tutor. It either gets you an extra Wish, or more mana to fuel Stroke.

Secondly, Twincast does not pair well with any of the dig other than Meditate, since you're not running Accumulated Knowledge. Twincasting Flash of Insight is cute, but unless you're Flashing for an ungodly number, Mystical Tutor and Brainstorm is always going to be better. Which is a stronger play, pulling 2 cards out of the top 10 cards to put in your hand, or finding any 1 card in your deck and drawing that instead? If you think that the 2 cards out of the top 10 is better, you might consider how Demonic Tutor and Desperate Research compare.

Pulling 2 cards out of the top 10 is unquestionably better. Solidarity is a highly redundant deck, with the only really unique card being High Tide. If you're comboing, meaning you've already resolved High Tide(s), picking the best 2 cards out of the top 10 is practically twice as good as getting 1 card out of the deck.

Twincast does not pair well with High Tide either. You could pair it with Reset, but it's not really a highly effective play, and here's why:

Twincasting High Tide or Reset usually happens when your opponent counters your first (or second, or whatever) copy. This is precisely why Twincast is so good against decks packing countermagic; it bolsters whatever your scarce resource is, whether you haven't drawn many of something or they attempt to counter all of something.

Twincast also has the benefit of letting you combo in response to their counterspell, and Force the counter later on to let your original spell resolve.

Mystical Tutor gets you an extra copy of something, too, but requires setup and of course costs you a card to do it. It also pulls a real copy out of your deck.

While Gro is generally a bad matchup for High Tide based decks, I don't really think there's anyone out there that would disagree that if the Gro deck you're facing is running Predicts, it's a bad Gro deck. I'd be hesitant to base my decklist off bad decks with bad pilots. Additionally, if it's an incredibly heavy Gro/Fish field, I wouldn't be piloting Solidarity in the first place. Finally, even if I were to pilot Solidarity in a field filled with bad Gro decks, I run far more cheap dig spells than they run Predicts. Predict naming what I've tutored for and I'll simply Opt in response. Or AK. Or Impulse. Or Brainstorm.
Way to throw out random inflammatory comments. I'm trying really hard not to throw out a similar comment about running Deed in Landstill, or Enlightened Tutor in Burn. But I won't.

Predict is a fairly minor point against Tutor, even specifically against Gro. However, Tutor sucks balls in that matchup, while Twincast is pretty much your potential salvation. If you aim to get past their counterwall, you'll want to have Twincast.

The card disadvantage of Mystical Tutor is easily exploited by Control. Carrying a Tutor instead of a draw spell really, really hurts. If you resolve it they can just counter whatever else - and worse, they know what to counter.
This is such utter bullshit. I'm so sick of people using this argument. "They'll just counter it anyway", or "the card disadvantage will kill you".

So by your arguments, black decks shouldn't run Dark Ritual, cuz they'll just counter your first turn Hypnotic Specter anyway, or Plow it, and then the card disadvantage will kill you. Red decks shouldn't run Fireblast, because it'll just get countered anyway, and then you're out 2 lands. Oh, and while we're at it, why don't we run 4xPyroclasm in Sligh to deal with DoJ tokens, which are almost as scary as Predict in Gro... Seriously guys, are you reading what you type? Whether you believe it or not, card advantage is not the most important thing in Magic. Control decks can't counter everything. Tutoring for a card doesn't mean you don't have any of that particular piece, it just means you could use more. Solidarity doesn't lose to Landstill. Just a few things you might like to mull over while you're chanting your mantra of "Mirage Tutors are bad". I guess it doesn't really matter, if the logic hasn't hit you yet, it's not going to.

You're probably sick of people using this argument because it is the goddamn reason Tutor sucks, and going off on a tangent about people overusing card advantage theory doesn't actually counter it. Reread the post, again, carefully, and tell us all why having a Tutor in place of a draw spell (or a Twincast, which is even better) won't hurt you against control. Tell us why having one less card when you go for the win against a hand of counterspells is desirable.

Against control, Solidarity has all the time in the world to sculpt its hand. This means that the cantrips alone should be sufficient for filling your hand with what you need. Why would you want to exchange a card for the assurance that you will have a specific card, when you could literally just dig until you find it without losing the card?

The entire argument boils down to this. Solidarity with or without Tutor beats aggro decks. Tutor lets you find High Tide slightly more consistently in already favorable matchups, but it clearly hurts against control, and against your tougher matchups like Gro. So again, why run it?

Carlos El Salvador

09-05-2005, 03:11 PM

This is such utter bullshit. I'm so sick of people using this argument. "They'll just counter it anyway", or "the card disadvantage will kill you".

So by your arguments, black decks shouldn't run Dark Ritual, cuz they'll just counter your first turn Hypnotic Specter anyway, or Plow it, and then the card disadvantage will kill you. Red decks shouldn't run Fireblast, because it'll just get countered anyway, and then you're out 2 lands. Oh, and while we're at it, why don't we run 4xPyroclasm in Sligh to deal with DoJ tokens, which are almost as scary as Predict in Gro... Seriously guys, are you reading what you type? Whether you believe it or not, card advantage is not the most important thing in Magic. Control decks can't counter everything. Tutoring for a card doesn't mean you don't have any of that particular piece, it just means you could use more. Solidarity doesn't lose to Landstill. Just a few things you might like to mull over while you're chanting your mantra of "Mirage Tutors are bad". I guess it doesn't really matter, if the logic hasn't hit you yet, it's not going to.
First thing is first, please, for the love of peat just try and respect other members. They are just trying to help build the list and make it better. There is no reason to disrespect people in such a way. As far as the Mystical Tutor to whatever else you want to play in that slot discussion goes, it's up to whoever is building the deck, that is all. Please just bury the hatchet already. The truth of the matter is that the ease of the deck archtypes goes from easiest being aggro, to control, to aggro control. Aggro-control matchups are some of the worse in the game. If the player is proficient, they will counter what you need, and usually have a second counter. By the time you can try and win VS Aggro contorl, they are going to kill you. Your on a severe clock, unlike verses landstill where they may allow you to live up to seven or eight turns, debating on how many fetchlands you draw, and which point you should of had optimal time to sculpt your hand. Verses stuff like fish, and gro varients (Which many of the good ones DO use perdect.) You don't have time for much of anything. And once things are in place, you need to be able to deal with two counters on turn five, which is much harder to deal with.

SpikeyMikey

09-05-2005, 11:30 PM

Way to throw out random inflammatory comments. I'm trying really hard not to throw out a similar comment about running Deed in Landstill, or Enlightened Tutor in Burn. But I won't.
My man. Props on that.

Thing is, and maybe you haven't been playing long enough to remember these decks, but when the Mirage tutors were legal, they were played. Decks like Flores Black(which is what I was trying to do with that R/W burn, btw) and Replenish(a fair parallel for Solidarity) relied heavily on tutors, because they are good. Like you said, against control, you've got time. I don't see anyone going off without 7 cards in hand against Landstill, with Tutor, with Twincast, or whatever. My biggest issue is that Tutor can be used pre-combo to achieve what Twincast can only do mid-combo. Tutor is also effective for fetching anything in your deck except for lands, whereas Twincast only shines with Meditate. Saying that you can use it with High Tide or Reset or Brainstorm is like saying that you can plow your own creatures. Sure, you can, but that's not why you run Plow. Nobody sits down and goes "I'm going to run Swords to Plowshares over other removal because if I'm in a tight spot, I can plow my own critter to gain some life."

So yes, fine, you can get a marginal effect out of forking a Reset, and forking a Tide could be good if the opposing player is going to counter your High Tide, and Twincast could be good if your hand is empty against a control player that Facts EoT and let's you refill. Arguing that this earns it a place in Solidarity, however, is like saying Suicide Black should splash Plows because it can block with a Negator, put damage on the stack, then Plow the Negator to avoid sacrificing permanents. You even gain life too!!!

I bring up the card advantage thing because it "is" over used and misunderstood, and that does have relevance to the current discussion. A Mirage tutor generates as much effective card advantage as the card you're tutoring generates -1. That is to say, against a deck with all non-basics, tutoring for a Blood Moon generates an amount of effective card advantage equal to every card in your opponents hand, and every card they draw, -1. I think it's safe to imagine that we're going to be talking about an effective advantage greater than -1, but all people see is that -1. Mostly because they like to use the argument "it'll just get countered." Which is a ridiculous argument. If control decks could counter everything, they'd never lose. Why even bring a deck, anything remotely threatening is just going to get countered anyway, and if you tutor for something, not only will everything get countered, but you'll be at a whopping -1 CA!!!!

You can't tell me that you don't understand why I'm frustrated beyond words with that mentality.

@ Carlos:

Aggro-control has *always* been a horrible matchup for Tide decks, ever since Labarre took second at PT Rome with Fish in a sea of Tide decks. Like you said, you're on a severe clock. I fail to see how Twincast helps that, however. Can you Twincast a Spiketail? Or a Budde-mage? What about a Daze? Does Twincast shut down Meddling Mage? Twincast doesn't improve the Fish matchup at all. It provides you with an extra 4 counters for Force of Will, and that's it. Most times, the Fish player doesn't have to have more than a single hard counter when you try and go off, because if you start with a Tide and they Daze it twice, you're already hurt. If your Reset doesn't resolve, they Jitte you to death the next turn.

Gro is a little different, but not much. You Twincast a Mana Leak, you've saved yourself 1 mana, at the cost of a card. While I know I hate people saying "they'll just counter it", it's safe to assume that versus any control deck that has the capability, Tide is not going to resolve. It can't. If it does, you have too much mana for them to try and effectively stop you later on. High Tide is a must counter spell. So chances are, while they're countering things, Tide is either on the stack waiting to be countered, or it has already been countered. I point this out because it does make a difference when you don't have more than enough mana, like you would mid-combo against an aggro deck. Spending turn 1 tutoring for a Tide means that on turn 5 when you have to go off or die next turn, you've got the extra 2 mana to play with that you'd normally be spending trying to fork the Tide or fork their counter.

There's nothing you can main against Fish that won't be dead in other matchups. The two most effective anti-Fish cards that Solidarity could run, without splashing a second color, as far as I can think of, would be Caltrops or Vedalken Shackles, and neither one is something you'd want to main. Most times, you wouldn't even want them in board, if you're expecting a Fish/Gro heavy environment, Solidarity is the wrong deck to play. That's just part of metagaming. Predict's suckiness aside, if you're expecting to face Gro decks, don't play Solidarity.

In any case, I'll finally join everyone else, I'm done discussing this. I don't have enough time with my computer as it is, with the overtime I'm putting in these days, and wasting half an hour at a pop debating the merits of Tutor over Twincast is probably not the best use of my time there is.

Mystical Tutor: Allows you to find whatever you need in your deck, at the cost of a card. Good when facing a fast clock, but a liability vs. control, both in the card disadvantage and showing what card you tutored for. If used should not be more than a two-of.

Flash of Insight: Amazing while comboing to allow you to stack your deck and gives the ability to keep comboing by Brainfreezing yourself to find one. Expensive to get into the graveyard from your hand and generally useless pre-combo.

Thirst for Knowledge: Decent for optimizing your hand on turn three and good at getting Flash of Insight into the graveyard. Doesn't net you any actual card advantage except where you're discarding lands while comboing.

Peer Through Depths: Great card both setting up and while comboing. Not to be run over Impulse since it can't find a land. The only real problem Peer has is that most builds just can't fit it in.

Twincast: Helps fight control when you attempt to combo, and copies any card in your own deck, some more useful than others. Somewhat situational, since you really only want to copy a Meditate, but isn't dead otherwise.

Accumulated Knowledge: Not a good card at all for the deck. Wastes your second turn setting up at best, when you could be casting Brainstorm/Impulse, and isn't good until you've cast the third one, at which point you've generally already won. Intuition/Accumulated Knowledge isn't even funny.

The blasts in the board assume a red heavy metagame. Coupled with the speed of Goblins and Burn, too many red cards spell death to Solidarity to warrant the eight blasts.

Honestly, I believe that most of the debate about card choices comes from people who haven't actually played the deck in a competitive atmosphere. Goldfishing the deck does not give an accurate reflection of how your games will turn out. You can't always pass by the wishes and forces when you have an opponent to worry about. And fetching 3 or 4 lands will often kill you, or at least not allow you to Force. I admit I don't get out much. But I have played enough tournaments in the Syracuse and Rochester areas to realize that Deep6er's build is very close to perfect there. Mystical Tutor and especially Accumulated Knowledge just don't belong.

One thing I was wondering about was the lack of Brainfreeze in his sideboard. I had though of that as undebatable, since that was one of my most wished for cards.

T is for TOOL

09-08-2005, 01:08 PM

Mystical Tutor: Allows you to find whatever you need in your deck, at the cost of a card. Good when facing a fast clock
How is this good when facing a fast clock? More elaboration please.

One thing I was wondering about was the lack of Brainfreeze in his sideboard. I had though of that as undebatable, since that was one of my most wished for cards.
You're already running 3, and you don't want to see them until you have successfully comboed, and at that point you should have drawn through most of your deck (i.e. you should have one in hand). Additionally, when you flashback the Flash of Insight, you allow Brainfreeze to become a Wish target anyway.

Ewokslayer

09-08-2005, 01:37 PM

Additionally, when you flashback the Flash of Insight, you allow Brainfreeze to become a Wish target anyway.

That is usually not the case though. If you target yourself with all the copies of Brainfreeze in order to hit a flash you would have to let all the copies resolve before the Brainfreeze is in your graveyard at which point you have most likely decked yourself. If you target your opponent with any or all of the copies of Brainfreeze you can only remove it and wish it back if you don't hit a blessing. If there isn't a blessing than why do you more than one Brainfreeze?

I think there is one important thing missing... you have no way to deal with Chalice of the Void. I playtested Solidarity against Legacy Stax and it has been disastrous. Chalice for one on turn one, followed by a second Chalice for two later in the game are pretty bad... with this Sideboard, you don't even have any kind of solution to that problem... Well, I guess nobody is seriously playing Stax in Legacy, but the matchup seems to be worse than Pox... Shouldn't you at least put one lonely Rebuild in the Sideboard to deal with the Chalices..?

How about Evacuation? How do you deal with True Believer and Mother of Runes, for example? White Weenie (like Angel Stompy and WWW) is played at some places... this matchup shouldn't be too hard... but I think Evacuation should be in the Sideboard...

What do you think?

ExpectLess

09-08-2005, 02:10 PM

I completely agree with the decklist posted there. 18 lands (6 fetch), and 5 cards left to fill with Twincast/Flash, Tutor or any other of the debatable card choices.

How is this good when facing a fast clock? More elaboration please.

Um...pretty self explanatory. When facing a fast clock (ie, when you need to combo out turn 3-5), you need High Tide. Mystical Tutor allows there to be 6-7 High Tides in your deck and greatly increases the chance you'll find one before turn 3-5.

Regarding the Chalice situation, it can be bad if they have them set at one and two, but honestly the amount of games you'll play where the opponent has two Chalice's in play is so negligible that it's not worth sporting Rebuild in the sb. Evac, on the other hand, is useful in enough situations that I think it merits a sb slot.

herbig

09-08-2005, 03:03 PM

Wishing for a Flashed Brainfreeze is a good point, since sometimes you might need for of them if you're up against multiple Blessings. Although I'd really love to free up another sideboard slot I don't think I would risk taking it out, since there are many times where you're stretching for a kill.

How is this good when facing a fast clock? More elaboration please.

The idea was to highlight the arguments for and against the card in the previous posts without starting another argument. For elaboration, look up in the thread, where you argued against this point yourself. I personally don't think Mystical Tutor does anything the rest of the deck can't already handle.

How do you deal with True Believer and Mother of Runes, for example?

Evacuation is a pretty useful card. True Believer/Mother of Runes seems pretty unlikely though, and can be dealt with by having both Chain of Vapor and Echoing Truth in hand. There is always the dreaded double Mom...

On the Stax issue, yes, you can get locked out by having two Chalices on the board, but I don't think wasting a slot to combat something that no one really plays is worth it. No one packs Blessings in Type I to deal with Solidarity.

scarface

09-08-2005, 03:56 PM

How about one draw spell in the board so that cunning wish isn't dead when you need to dig into your deck rather than find an answer to a threat? Why did people stop running 1 meditate in the sb? If you need 4 meditates main, then how about at least a peer through depths or a thirst?

T is for TOOL

09-08-2005, 06:09 PM

That is usually not the case though. If you target yourself with all the copies of Brainfreeze in order to hit a flash you would have to let all the copies resolve before the Brainfreeze is in your graveyard at which point you have most likely decked yourself.
Or you could play it correctly and let another copy of Brainfreeze be milled into the yard then Flash it away with the other Freeze and its copies still on the stack. :p

If you target your opponent with any or all of the copies of Brainfreeze you can only remove it and wish it back if you don't hit a blessing. If there isn't a blessing than why do you more than one Brainfreeze?
I have no idea why you would need more than one brainfreeze. My point was that once the deck goes off, you can easily get a hold of a Brainfreeze, so putting one in the SB is a waste.

How is this (Mystical Tutor) good when facing a fast clock?
Um...pretty self explanatory. When facing a fast clock (ie, when you need to combo out turn 3-5), you need High Tide. Mystical Tutor allows there to be 6-7 High Tides in your deck and greatly increases the chance you'll find one before turn 3-5.
The deck combos consistently on turn 4 without it. I don't have a hard time finding High Tide by turn 4, I have a harder time trying to hit all of my land drops. Mystical Tutor can't fetch lands and it doesn't allow the deck to consistently win on turn 3 either. So I ask again: How is Mystical Tutor good when facing a fast clock?

LeRoux

09-11-2005, 06:48 PM

Just wanted to share some results with you. Went to a local tourney yesterday, 21 persons showed up, which I consider pretty good. Tournament was 5 Rounds of swiss + Top 4. I played a standard Solidarity build (Twincast, 2 Flash of Insights, 12/6 Lands split and an 8 BeB plan). Here are my results:

Round 1 - UB Random Discard
Game 1: After 4 turns, my 4 Meditates are already gone in my 'yard...not having the chance to even play one. I lost this game...
Game 2-3: Won those 2 but was pretty close, Duress, Therapy, Blackmail and Ravenous Rats are pretty mean.

2-1, 1-0

Round 2 - Rg Vial Goblins
Game 1: I win when he puts too much pressure on me, he gets an active Kiki on Ringleader, but that's too slow for this deck.
Game 2: Too fast for me, didn't have the chance for anything.
Game 2: He makes a huge mistake by not playing his 2 petals before playing his Lackey, which meets my BeB (which he could've countered with his 2nd Petal). He's short and does nothing...

2-1, 2-0

Round 3 - UW Landstill
Game 1: This game takes forever, I finally combo out during my turn so that he doesn't get an untap, I feared Counterspells...
Game 2: I crap out, after playing 2 Meditates, and we start the 5 extra turns right after that, however, Landstill can't deal 17 damage in 3 turns...

1-0, 3-0

Round 4 - Affinity
Game 1: I beat him just before having lethal damage on the stack.
Game 2: He shows me double Pyrostatic Pillar on turn 2 and 3 both meeting my FoWs, leaving me with, pretty much nothing in hand, he beats me down with his Ravager
Game 3: Therapy ripped my hand apart a little to much, and his beats were just enough.

I was lucky however, the guy was leaving, so he gave me the win... :D

2-1*, 4-0

Round 5 - UW Landstill
ID, giving me and my friend a spot into Top 4

ID, 4-0-1

Top 4 - UW Landstill
Game 1: A normal Landstill matchup I guess, he draws card with Standstill, I get a good hand, and combo off after 1 or 2 tries
Game 2: He doesn't see his 'hate' soon enough (only a Meddling Mage hit the table, naming High Tide). I have the time to combo out without High Tide, using pretty much all untap effects and finishing with 3 Brain Freezes.

Top 2 - UW Fish
Game 1: He isn't fast enough, he does however Daze, and Spiketail me a couple of times, but it wasn't enough.
Game 2: I don't think he had any relevent card to board in, and I also won this one, Twincasting a couple of times the same Meditate.

I was really happy to finally get the chance to play with Solidarity, having my reset for a couple months, but no tournaments in sight. I was also happy about playing Twincast all day long, except for the one in the board which I find totally useless. Which brings me to discuss on the SB a little bit. This is what I used in the tourney:

1x Stroke of Genuis (Pretty good, wished a couple times)
1x Twincast (Never even though about wishing for...)
1x Words of Wisdom (Wished for 1-3 times in the day)
1x Turnabout (Wished for constantly)
1x Chain of Vapor (Wished for it once)
1x Echoing Truth (Didn't have to wish for it)
1x Evacuation (Never wished for, but I refuse to lost to MoR and Mage)
4x BeB
4x Hydroblast

I'm going to change Twincast for some other relevent draw spell for the future tournaments, however, I'm still not sold on which yet. Peer Through Depts is definitly a valid choice, I don't know about what else could be used.

As for the matchups I faced, I found them all pretty easy, except for Affinity which was without a doubt really difficult, but you shouldn't see those normally anyway.

Oh, and for those not running Flash of Insight, think about it twice, it was ridiculously broken every time I had the chance to play it, and my opponents mouth always dropped when they saw me Impulsing 10+ cards...

l_neiman

09-12-2005, 11:08 AM

Congrats on your win, :). I've also found the SB Twincast pretty useless, and I want to switch it for a Misdirection, since having a free counter available is really nice for the control matchups, and can be randomly good vs. a burn spell, too. Thoughts?

Luis

Deep6er

09-12-2005, 11:16 AM

Just one thing to note guys, the Twincast is not there to be wished for. It's to be sideboarded. You SB it in for control matchups to give you a little edge for counterspells and such. I SB it in for Gro, Landstill, and other weird control decks and such. BTW, congrats on the win with solidarity :)

l_neiman

09-12-2005, 11:26 AM

Alright, fair enough, I guess it makes more sense now. But do you really need/want 4 Twincasts vs. those decks, though? Don't you think 3 is enough?

Luis

Deep6er

09-12-2005, 11:39 AM

Absolutely. In all of my testing (which is rather extensive) I always like having access to all four. There have been a couple of games where the fourth twincast (and my higher chances of drawing it) have been key to my victory. Also, twincast allows you to reanalyze the possibilities of going off on your turn for whatever reason. Don't forget to keep in mind that twincast should not be played as a combo enabler exclusively, it can and does serve multiple purposes.

Ray D 3

09-12-2005, 01:18 PM

Absolutely. In all of my testing (which is rather extensive) I always like having access to all four. There have been a couple of games where the fourth twincast (and my higher chances of drawing it) have been key to my victory. Also, twincast allows you to reanalyze the possibilities of going off on your turn for whatever reason. Don't forget to keep in mind that twincast should not be played as a combo enabler exclusively, it can and does serve multiple purposes.
Quoted for truth

Twincast is AMAZING at fighting through control elements. It makes your hand 10x more flexible as well (meaning instead of being strictly untap or draw, it functions as additional pieces of whatever your opponent aims their counters at).

On that note...it is just retardedly good in the mirror. I will let everyone figure out why for themselves (If that is too much of a challenge for you, I suggest you go playing vial Goblins.)

@ Deep6er: I find myself wishing for Twincast very often against control/solidarity mirror, so I was wondering if "Twincast is not there to be wished for" was really just a careless oversight or if you really haven't found yourself wishing for it in these games either.

In my experience, perhaps the deck's biggest flaw is the inability to dig for combo pieces (namely High Tide) while it is digging for land, and the dig it has left over after it finds those 4 land drops can often not do enough, so I was wondering if you have any possible suggestions here.

Deep6er

09-12-2005, 01:35 PM

Actually it's very rare when I have an issue finding a High Tide. It might be that you are keeping hands that are different from the standards that I keep. Usually, I do a very calculated risk analysis on whether or not I should keep my hand. Very different from the 'If it has lands, keep it" strategy that some other people seem to employ.
@RayD3: Cunning Wish is so unbelievably important that wishing for Twincast may not actually be the best call. I've played the Solidarity mirror a couple of times (too many and you want to kill somebody) and in those games I've found that saving the Cunning Wish can be absolutely imperative at times. I've also found that the mirror can usually be won by the player who knows how to BEST play the matchup. I've played against venisonmixup when we were both playing the exact same build but I won because I'm the better Solidarity player (No offense Jesse K, you're still a cool guy :) )
Yes, the inability to exactly tutor up the High Tide can sometimes affect you but it's not something that's ever going to change. Personally, I don't like the weaknesses of Spring Tide as opposed to the weaknesses of Solidarity. (Not to mention that I made Solidarity and thus, is my project) I know for a fact that I am one of a handful of people that play Solidarity to its fullest potential and at this point I know that people who don't know exactly how the deck functions will fail with it. Solidarity doesn't really have the "Oops, I won" Dragon-ish kind of thing that rewards the player who just drew what they needed. I know exactly what the deck is capable of doing and I know I'll usually do well with the deck.

mackaber

09-12-2005, 02:31 PM

I'm currently running 4 peer through depths to find high tide more consistently, it's also good in combo so I'm rather happy.
@deep6er: I am very timid in mulling with this dec since mulligans seem to hurt so badly in assembling all the nescesary tools (lands, draw, high tide, untap effect) do you feel it is worth it to chuck your average 3 land hand with meditate turnabout and random dig to find a high tide?

Deep6er

09-12-2005, 04:08 PM

It's actually not a question of finding high tide as much of just a question of getting a good hand. This is definitely one of the few decks where a mulligan to six doesn't hurt you as bad as if you were mulliganing with an aggroish kind of deck. Therefore, I always take that kind of information into account when I see my first hand. If it doesn't seem like it isn't any good or lacks dig something along those lines then I feel free to ship it back. It's important to consider that Solidarity can overcome the disadvantage from a mulligan.

BigEricFromSD

09-13-2005, 02:17 PM

Very different from the 'If it has lands, keep it" strategy that some other people seem to employ.

I personally find myself doing this more often than not mainly cause of the land count. Last Saturday I took this to a GPT in LA. I just find adding an extra land to add to much and doing the 12-6 not really opening too many hands with more than 2 lands which I am fine with. But one game i had one land and no fixers in my first hand, no land in the second, oneland but the rest was Cunning Wish/twincast type stuff so i essentially ended up mullling to 4 which while it was a decent hand it didn't do so well againt Reanimator.

Which brings me to ask the question of how our matchup vs. them is? It seems that if you don't have an opening force then you will lose in a matter of turns, but if you have the force. then you need to have a lot of fixing to regain the CA lost. But if you have a lot of fixers and a force then you have no land?

btw the night before i was testing with my friend playing Landstill and we decided that Twincast is the best card in the deck. we were planning on playing 6 main board and 3 sided but thoght that might be illeagal. :p

I do believe that this deck is amazing tho as well as flash of insight, i prolly made a few play mistakes as far as impulsing and mulling is concerned but hey what can i do i placed 9th playing the deck for the second time. [oops]

MattH

09-13-2005, 02:32 PM

If you actually need to worry about Reanimator, you could always try fitting in Snap, which also nicely generates a little mana while comboing out against aggro.

GAUDARD

09-20-2005, 11:15 AM

Hi, I'm your average ptq player. Wizards says play Legacy, I play legacy, so here I am. I'm a combo player at heart, so if there is a combo deck that is competitive in any given format... I'll try to play it. Done quite a lot of reading on your fourms in the past few weeks, tweaked and tweaked the list. I started out with Zvi's from his article on mtg.com that he would have played if he could have found Resets.

So, with your various builds how do you sideboard for various matchups? It doesn't do much good to play x games verses a given deck, and not know how to sideboard. So I'm hoping to find some suggestions about sideboarding against various matchups. For example:

With Zvi's list, I would board against the average goblin build:

+ 3 Blue Elemental Blast
- 3 Twincast

I'm not asking you to tell me how to board with this list, if you've played the deck and have a given way to sideboard against this matchup or that matchup with your decklist and board to share how you would sideboard.

If this has already been covered in the past, I only read back like 5 pages, then let me know and I'll go back more.

Thanks.

Lukas Preuss

09-20-2005, 12:03 PM

Well, first of all, my version of Solidarity runs more than one Brainfreeze maindeck, because there are times when you need to cast two (or even three) to win, because you can't get a high enough storm count.

My version only runs 18 Lands, as do most other builds I've seen... this seems to be enough, considering the fact, that you have plenty of spells to dig for lands in the early game but you don't want to see a whole bunch of them when comboing. :)

But, well, these might be minor changes, you should run the version you feel most comfortable with.

To adress your question: Against Goblins (and Burn, i guess), I usually board in six Blasts, because red clearly is your archenemy. Cards like Pillar, Sirocco, etc. are pretty ugly and can ruin your day if you can't handle them... [oops] I only run six Blasts in my Sideboard, some other people run eight Blasts, but I think six might be enough if your Meta doesn't have Goblins all over the place...

Against Control, I board in my fourth Brainfreeze. I know most people don't run four copies between the mainboard and the sideboard, but I always loved to have four of them against control. Having two or three Brainfreezes in hand against control is pretty nice... you basically can't go wrong with that... :D

Oh, and you should consider Words of Wisdom in your Sideboard as a kill condition, since Stroke is sometimes just a little to mana intensive...

GAUDARD

09-20-2005, 12:17 PM

Yes, I do like words in the board. I ran desire/cold shower in extended season.

I'm also interested in what you take out. Just because you have x cards against a deck, doesn't mean you have x cards you can take out of the main deck. You don't want to weaken the decks focus by adding too many sideboard cards. I'm trying to figure what people take out for cards.

herbig

09-20-2005, 12:34 PM

Done quite a lot of reading on your fourms in the past few weeks, tweaked and tweaked the list.

The list you've posted is actually an exact copy of Zvi's build and is not optimal by anyone's definition.

Your sideboard is going to need Words of Wisdom in order to kill when your opponent is swinging for lethal damage. Stroke of Genius is often too expensive or has already been wished for to draw cards for yourself. Lower the land count by at least one island, twenty is far too many, especially with eight fetchlands. More Brainfreezes are necessary. Keep in mind you are not really running more than one because you don't want to cast as many spells. Replacing two of them with more draw spells would make the deck much more consistent, if not for Gaea's Blessing and their synergy with Flash of Insight. In the absense of Blessing it might be feasible to run one, but everyone seems to think Blessing is a good trick.

you should run the version you feel most comfortable with
No, there is in fact an accepted (by myself at least) optimal build a few pages back, posted by Deep6er, who is the original creator of Solidarity. While I haven't met the guy, I do have a lot of respect for what he says, since he has had the most tournament and testing experience with the deck. You cannot run whatever you feel like and expect to have a good version. Especially with combo decks, there is an optimal build that will grant the greatest ability to combo out while affording a degree of protection. Whether or not that has ever been found for any deck is really unclear, but I tend to trust those who have devoted the most time to finding it. I'm not saying you should copy lists blindly. Your expected playing field should be taken into account. Mainly, your slots devoted to twincast and your sideboard options are all you should be tweaking. In some fields Solidarity may not even be a competitive deck.

For Philly, I'd say the eight blasts are essential. Burn decks are cheap and goblins will be everywhere.

Sideboarding generally consists of replacing your Twincasts and Forces for blasts. Anything else must rely on Cunning Wish and Force of Will to be dealt with.

On a side note, don't ever play Mystical Tutor or Accumulated Knowledge.

GAUDARD

09-20-2005, 01:15 PM

The list you've posted is actually an exact copy of Zvi's build and is not optimal by anyone's definition.
Right, I didn't want to start any type of discussion on the correct decklist, just what to subtract and add when sideboarding.

On a different note, how do you be blessing? Just wait till you can cast a big stroke?

Ok, so here's the newest list. I piloted it to a finals finish at the $500 dollar legacy event splitting with t is for tool for 250 apiece. I didn't do so well in the legacy championship but that was due to entirely different circumstances.

Against the red decks I board -4 FoW -3 Twincast and -1 Meditate to board in the 8 blast. That has made my matchup against them absolutely ridiculously in my favor. Just one more note, Mystical tutor and Accumulated Knowledge do not BELONG IN THIS DECK! I'm absolutely serious. Just this one time believe me. It's so absolutely necessary for the 8 blast because there are a lot of cards that are so bad for solidarity to see. Sirocco, Blood Oath, Pillar, and shit like that are really, really bad to see on the other side of the table.
This one correct?

Why only 6 fetch? Don't you want to filter as much land out of the deck as possible before you win?

Double post merged.
-braves

Edited By braves54321 on 1127237365

Ewokslayer

09-20-2005, 01:34 PM

Gaea's Blessing is beaten by a combination of multiple Brain Freezes and Stoke of Genius.

You don't really have to get the stroke that high as you can always twincast it and double the cards drawn for the cheap price of two blue and a card, though that is dangerous against control as they can possibly draw a counter off the first stroke.

Lukas Preuss

09-20-2005, 01:45 PM

Why only 6 fetch? Don't you want to filter as much land out of the deck as possible before you win?

Yes, that's true, but the thought is, that eight fetchlands can be quite dangerous for you if you're facing a burn deck...

No, there is in fact an accepted (by myself at least) optimal build a few pages back, posted by Deep6er, who is the original creator of Solidarity. While I haven't met the guy, I do have a lot of respect for what he says, since he has had the most tournament and testing experience with the deck. You cannot run whatever you feel like and expect to have a good version.

Yes, I think so, too. I have a lot of respect for David Gearhart, as well, although I might never actually meet him (well, I live in Germany, right? :)), and I think that his decklist is obviously one of, if not THE best decklist out there. But GAUDARD's posting was actually not about his decklist but about his sideboard and what to switch for certain matchups, so I wanted to focus more on that question...

btw, GAUDARD, you can take out some FoWs against Goblins to put in more Blasts... I'm running 4 FoW and 3 Twincast maindeck and I usually take out 3 Twincast and 3 FoW to get the 6 Blasts...

GAUDARD

09-20-2005, 04:01 PM

What about mana short for the mirror or a similar deck?

etakspeelstae

09-20-2005, 04:49 PM

What about mana short for the mirror or a similar deck?
If I'm not mistaken (please tell me if I am, I would love to better understand Solidarity), Turnabout > Mana Short, as it can do the same thing (sans-pool emptying, but I don't think that's a huge issue, or shouldn't be) only it can help you go off.

LeRoux

09-20-2005, 06:25 PM

What about mana short for the mirror or a similar deck?
If I'm not mistaken (please tell me if I am, I would love to better understand Solidarity), Turnabout > Mana Short, as it can do the same thing (sans-pool emptying, but I don't think that's a huge issue, or shouldn't be) only it can help you go off.

Well, emptying the mana-pool may actually be relevent. However, if you play wisely, you should be able to Turnabout during the upkeep/first main phase, and combo a little bit later in the turn, but this will still let him untap his lands with the mana he floated. It will make him a card short though. I, personnaly, don't see the mirror often enough (read never) to warrant a hate inclusion, but it might be something to consider if your meta is filled with Solidarity...

troopatroop

09-20-2005, 06:45 PM

If your meta is filled with solidarity, I'd just splash white and play abeyance... and win. Is it possible to play the 3 abeyance 1 tundra plan in the sb for the mirror? Wouldn't that give you a distinct advantage in the mirror? I know that dominating the stack is important, and how the mirror should be played, but sometimes you don't have the cards to outplay your opponent. Is there room?

Pyrokinesis

09-20-2005, 07:34 PM

I don't think so. Red hate is reeeeeeeally bad for Solidarity (read: EOTSiroccoIWYLGG), and the mirror match comes down to hitting those blasted land drops more than much else. Abeyance just gets responded to or Forced.

troopatroop

09-20-2005, 07:41 PM

ummm... How does adding these cards worsen your red matchups other than sideboard space. Second of all, If it gets Forced, well whatever, but If it resolves you win. If they respond to it, you get to respond to them whenever you damn well please. That's about as guaranteed as the mirror gets.

Pyrokinesis

09-20-2005, 07:52 PM

If you aren't talking about finding sideboard space for those cards I think it isn't a bad plan, although you need to be careful about what you remove for it. If Solidarity really is as popular as Reset's price would suggest, it may be worth it. Shoving it in the sideboard, however, I don't think so.

(And yeah, you were right about it. Abeyance does put the opponent in a worse-than-bad spot.)

etakspeelstae

09-20-2005, 09:10 PM

ummm... How does adding these cards worsen your red matchups other than sideboard space.
It doesn't, but that's enough to hurt it ALOT.

BTW, I run 1 Tundra MD, and a Wishable Chant. It helps the mirror alot.

herbig

09-21-2005, 03:00 PM

Is there any meta filled with Solidarity? I don't really think devoting such a significant number of cards in your sideboard for Solidarity is worth losing to Goblins and Burn because you don't have eight blasts. Also, the Tundra is a huge liability vs. Wasteland. Turnabouting during the opponent's upkeep either gets Forced or taps them out, since they can't float mana. Either way puts you at an advantage. Yes, Abeyance puts your opponent in a jam, providing you can recover from spending two mana on it and still have the cards to combo. Hell, if it is really an issue why not splash red for Sirroco.

(read: EOTSiroccoIWYLGG)

Pyrokinesis

09-24-2005, 12:05 AM

So we've gone through at least twenty-something pages of discussion of this deck. Is there anything like an optimal list yet? Tournament results have shown that Mystical Tutor is not nearly good enough and that splashes are ineffective or just work against you. It is also agreed that Twincast is "some good."

Unlike most I have decided to have the fourth Twincast in the maindeck, taking out Cunning Wish. I have yet to regret it, as Cunning Wish, while very important, is not quite as versatile as Twincast. Its biggest role is finding bounce spells for hate that comes in post-board - in fact, it could be argued that one should run the fourth Cunning WIsh in the sideboard instead of the fourth Twincast, taking out one for the other to improve your chances of being able to keep storm-nerfers out of the In Play Zone. I doubt this would be worth it, as I can't think of a matchup in which just that fourth one is so necessary, but feel free to discuss.
I have also been exploring the merits of a Tolarian Winds to wish for in the sideboard. It is quite helpful if you have kept drawing the wrong cards (most importantly land, a situation to which I'm sure we can all relate). It might be worth it, but sideboard space is tight as-is.

jrp

09-24-2005, 12:55 AM

@Pyrokinesis:
I have been running the fourth Meditate in the board as a wish target. Many times (especially against aggro when I need a turn 4 kill) I Cunning Wish on turn 3 for Meditate so I can combo next turn. Just wondering how often you run into scenarios where you would want the draw in the board.

Additional thoughts:
The Meditate (or some other cheap multi-card draw spell) in the board seems like a good idea, since mass card draw (i.e. not just cantripping) is one of the two limited pieces of the combo, with high tide being the other.
A simple example is: It's turn 2 (against an aggro deck), I have a reset and a wish in my hand (along with other stuff but no Meditate or High Tide), I cast Impulse and find Meditate and High Tide. I don't see myself not taking high tide, since there are a total of 4 cards in the deck that can produce its effect. Essentially what I am saying is that having the option to wish for Meditate or another non-stroke multi-draw spell seems to add redundancy to the deck, in that now there are (assuming three wishes) 4 High Tide, 8 Untap Effects, and 7 Multi-Draw Effects instead of 4, 8, and 4 respectively.

@Deep6er and Ewokslayer: Your thoughts on this issue would be greatly appreciated.

@Everyone: I am not stating that the Meditate in the board is optimal, I am simply trying to hear others' opinions regarding this topic, and learn more about this deck.

Thanks.

Carlos El Salvador

09-24-2005, 02:45 AM

Additional thoughts:
The Meditate (or some other cheap multi-card draw spell) in the board seems like a good idea, since mass card draw (i.e. not just cantripping) is one of the two limited pieces of the combo, with high tide being the other.
I feel that Meditate in the board is a nessisary evil. Yeah, nobody really wants to run it, but you can go ahead and run a couple other spells in the main deck for more hand optimizing. Here are two options I really like at the moment.
1) Telling time: Not Brainstorm, Not Impulse, but still very good, this card will get you at least one card that you wnat. it will give you two if you don't shuffle everything else away.
2) Thirst for Knowledge: Synergy with Flash is tech.

My build is listed a page or two back.

Pyrokinesis

09-24-2005, 12:18 PM

2) Thirst for Knowledge: Synergy with Flash is tech.

My build is listed a page or two back.
I've tried running two Thirst for Knowledge main (basically my build minus two T-copy plus Thirst) and found it underwhelming. It's not card advantage unless you're discarding a Flash or, mid-combo, Islands, but with four Twincast instead I've at times found myself able to keep running off Meditates like a top-of-the-line Xerox machine, to the point where I actually have to keep the stack separate from my 'yard to avoid rules violations involving Flash of Insight flashbacks. At that point you don't need the suboptimal Thirst.

herbig

09-25-2005, 02:41 AM

If you're running Flash of Insight maindeck, which you should be, then Brainfreeze doubles as a draw spell. Don't be afraid to use that option, it really does work. Also, you have Words of Wisdom. Playing the deck correctly you should always have options. Yes, there are times when you are going to fizzle out because you didn't have what you needed, but trying to fit cards in for every little situation is impossible. Tolarian Winds is incredible, if you drew a whole bunch of lands, if you also drew a Cunning Wish, and if you can afford to discard the Forces you've drawn along the way, not to mention wasting untap effects on a single High Tide. Also, putting a Meditate in the sideboard decreases your likelyhood of drawing it at the cheap cost of three mana. Six Meditates, three of them at double mana is not as good as four for three in ensuring your consistency.

Slay

09-25-2005, 01:56 PM

1) Telling time: Not Brainstorm, Not Impulse, but still very good, this card will get you at least one card that you wnat. it will give you two if you don't shuffle everything else away.
Really? I've been testing Telling Time and I've found it fairly underwhelming. It always seems(mid-combo, at least) that I find one spell I need, and two I don't, and then I'm stuck with a dead draw on top. I've almost always found that I'd rather have it send two cards to the bottom, because while one card usually sucks(or is land), the other will just be a cantrip into possibly something I need. That means I have to cast 2 morespells to get to the card I want to have, equaling suckage. Mid-combo, I've found it seriously inferior to Peer Through Depths, which will almost always find you a good card.

The one time I've found it really good is when searching for lands in the mirror, and even then I think Opt is better at it.
-Slay

Lukas Preuss

09-26-2005, 02:18 AM

Mid-combo, I've found it seriously inferior to Peer Through Depths, which will almost always find you a good card.

Yes, I think the same... and since Peer doesn't fit in most Solidarity builds, I don't think, Telling Time will be played a lot... The card's nice, but not better than any other card in the deck...

...
My list is very close to the list you provided. I have been really pleased with the 4th Twincast main. I have also found that I dislike the evacuation. I'm assuming the reason it is there is in case someone is running True Believer with Mother(s)? I have been in a situation a few times where I could High Tide then Reset or Turnabout and then wish for the Evacuation to buy myself like 2 turns against an aggro deck... but using the combo pieces to 'stay alive' for 2 more turns is just prolonguing the inevitable. So I'm pritty sure that is not the correct play if I have a wish and any chance at drawing cards with something.

I started out with Deep6er's list, right now I switched a Brain Freeze from the main to the board for the Twincast. It seemed I kept drawing Brain Freeze in my opening hand and then it was like a mulligain because I don't need it till I combo out. I played Cold Shower/Desire w/out Desire last extended season and I can see why multiple Brain Freezes are great, but it just doesn't seem like I can do very much with like 2 Brain Freeze because you still need 7+ spells to win and if you have cast that many then you should be comboing off anyway. Granted when you get 3 Brain Freeze you can do some fun things but you still need 4+ spells which still requires you to be 'going off'.

I feel 18 land is the right number, because if you are casting Meditate and such you do not want to draw multiple lands. But with the 18 land, you need to hit land drop #3 any less and it is very difficult to combo off. So any more than 6 sac lands is probably pushing it. With the 6 sac lands though your chances of having one when you have a Brainstorm in hand are pritty good. It is great to Brainstorm on turn 2 and then get rid of cards that you don't need with a sac land.

I have also found that if you are in a situation without Meditate and you may need to win soon that on turn 3 you can wish for Stroke then ramp up as much mana as you can and Stroke yourself for all but 4 and hope that you get a Turnabout or Reset along with the other pieces you need.

I have not done much testing with sideboards yet but it seems like the right call to have the blasts because
EOTSiroccoIWYLGG is very much a threat with all of the red decks that I'm sure will see play.

Deep6er

09-26-2005, 11:34 AM

OK, there are two things that I think I should discuss here. The first is the issue of 4 Twincasts and the other is the issue of the Meditate in the board.

(Subject the First) 4 Twincast is a little too much. Yeah, don't get me wrong, the card is absolutely insane, but it's also one of the few things that you have to be careful about drawing in the early game. Twincast is dependent on your hand being decent to good and it's also dependent on mana. I like 3 personally with having the fourth to side in for the control matchups. I really feel like four might dilute the strategy required in some of the aggro matchups and create more dead draws in some situations.

(Subject the Second) Moving the third Twincast into the main made me have to change a couple of things around. I've discovered that Thirst is less than stellar and is good in less situations than it is decent. Immediately cutting the two Thirsts for the Twincasts meant that I had to cut one more slot and it also freed up a slot in the board. After much deliberation and discussion, I decided that the meditate should go into the main and the 8 blast plan should be instituted for the board. I've been more happy than not with it and the few situations where I wished I had the meditate in the board are counteracted with the improved possibilities of me drawing one either during combo or before it.

(Mysterious Subject the Third) Let me just state something right now. NEVER, EVER, EVER, cut Flash of Insight from this deck. To do so indicates a complete misunderstanding of the deck's advanced functions and an inability to understand the deck's reactive nature. Flash of Insight is so absolutely vital to continuing the combo and proves its worth to me again and again.

(Also Mysterious Subject the Fourth) At the prerelease in Richmond (Day 1) Ewokslayer tested (using my Solidarity build) against Menendian's new Flame Vault deck (He'll be posting an article about it soon so I'll leave the list for him to unfurl). Suffice to say that the deck is decent, although I'm very questionable about his goblin matchup and it seems like the deck is overall functional. However, that's not the point of (Also Mysterious Subject the Fourth), the real point of (Also Mysterious Subject the Fourth) is this, the possibility of adding both rebuild and annul to the board. Menendian 5-0'd Ewokslayer (although he did mulligan 4 of the 5 games) and the possibility of multiple copies of his deck existing is a little off-putting.

(Exceedingly Mysterious Subject the Fifth) This subject addresses the issue of the possibility of cutting fetchlands from Solidarity. With the new inclusions of Suppression Field, Shadow of Doubt (Which doesn't seem highly playable), Stifle (with renewed popularity it seems), and Pithing Needle (Which also doesn't seem like it does much but just in case) there is a high possibility of the need to cut fetchlands from the deck. This would also require the addition of 1, possibly but unlikely 2 lands to the deck and would also probably require a little bit of a re-evaluation of the neccesity of brainstorm.

I will be deliberating these issues but would appreciate some kind of feedback on these issues.

Lukas Preuss

09-26-2005, 01:03 PM

Well, I will be playing Solidarity at the Grand Prix in Lille (France) and I did some extensive testing with the deck.

(Subject the First) 4 Twincast is a little too much.
I agree with you. Twincast is an extremely amazing card, but it is only good if you have other good cards in hand. Having multiple Twincasts in hand can be a problem if you're missing other relevant combo pieces.

I've discovered that Thirst is less than stellar and is good in less situations than it is decent.
Right, I've discovered the same... I've never been a huge fan of Thirst for Knowledge and I don't think it should be in the deck.

I decided that the meditate should go into the main and the 8 blast plan should be instituted for the board.
Actually, I can't see a reason to change that. I'm running 4 Meditates in the main and it has never been a problem. I don't think you need one in the board. I have been trying to fit one Peer through Depths in the sideboard, which has been nice (you can wish for it on turn three, or during the combo if you need it, etc.) but I don't think it's necessary. I just like to be able to wish for some draw and since Solidarity is not as popular in Germany as it is here, Sirocco doesn't seem to be such an issue . I'm running seven Blasts in the board, which has been enough for me.

(Mysterious Subject the Third) Let me just state something right now. NEVER, EVER, EVER, cut Flash of Insight from this deck.
Yeah, I tried it and it has been pretty nice. I think 2 is the right number for the deck.

(Also Mysterious Subject the Fourth) etc.
Unfortunately, I have not been able to playtest against this new combo deck, yet... But if it proves to be viable, there have to be some changes to the sideboard, that's for sure.

(Exceedingly Mysterious Subject the Fifth) This subject addresses the issue of the possibility of cutting fetchlands from Solidarity.
Wow. That's a big one. I think fetchlands are very important to the deck. In my opinion, the deck might get seriously weaker without fetchlands, because Brainstorm wouldn't work anymore (or not that good, at least), and you would have a higher change to fizzle during the combo, because of the higher land count in the deck. Without Brainstorm, the deck would loose one of the best spells in the deck, and therefore loose consistency. There is no card that could reasonably replace Brainstorm.
I don't even think, that you might be able to consistently combo on turn four without fetchlands and Brainstorm. But this has to be tested, I can't say that for sure.
It is true, that cards like Suppression Field, Stifle and Pithing Needle can hurt Solidarity quite a lot, but I don't know if taking out fetchlands would be the right way to handle the problem.

Oh, and btw., congratulations on T8ing in that SCG tournament. :)

Lukas Preuss

09-26-2005, 01:31 PM

Well, I just talked to one of my teammates on the phone (he called me, so I adressed the whole fetchland topic) and we came to the conclusion, that none of these cards you named can seriously screw you over as much as playing this deck without fetchlands and Brainstorm would. :)

Well, here is one little card by card analysis we made:

Suppression Field: Well, this might be bad, if it comes down early, but you can fetch in response to it. But seriously, you have six fetchlands in the deck, you should be able to play around this card because (and this is very important) your opponent will most likely be playing some kind of mono white deck (like Angel Stompy, White Weenie, Rabid Wombat, etc.), because otherwise Suppression Field would screw him over, as well, and these matchups are some of the easiest for Solidarity. You should still be able to win against these decks.

Shadow of Doubt (Which doesn't seem highly playable): As you said, this doesn't seem to be highly playable, so I don't think this would be too much of an issue.

Stifle: Okay, this is a mean card, but it will only 'destroy' one land. This is bad, but I don't think you should play this deck without fetchlands, just because you fear Stifle.

Pithing Needle: Okay, maybe you should be running 3 Strands and 3 Deltas, instead of 4 Strands and 2 Deltas, but this is the only change I would do to the deck to deal with Pithing Needle, because it doesn't seem to be too much of a problem, since you can still fetch in response to it and your opponent won't most likely be able to effect more than one fetchland with the Needle, anyways. He can be lucky and name the one fetchland you have in hand, but he can be unlucky, as well.

GAUDARD

09-26-2005, 02:46 PM

I have found that Twincast enables me to win ontop of a counterspell or something like that.

Yes, I really like to running two Flashs.

In testing I found that the Stifle plan was very effective against the land, I can only hope that it isn't widely known. I think (and hope) most people think that if they Stifle the Brain Freeze trigger it wins them the game. The Brainstorm/Fetch has been very effective as a draw engine if you can call it that. And thinning land is necessary.

Heard about the combo deck this weekend. Have not tested w/ or against it.

I too will probably switch to 3/3 of each fetch. Most people whom I've tested with were usually surprized to find out that the deck only runs 6 fetches.

mackaber

09-26-2005, 03:14 PM

This is concerning the fetchland issue:
For one thing I would like to agree with Lukas Preuss and Gaudard that the fear of fetchland hate is a little paranoid. If people start going back to 4 MD stifles then I guess cutting them might be warranted but they and Brainstorm just seem too good to cut.
On the other hand Pithing needle is rather strong against goblins and beats the living shit out of this new rich kid combo dec. It might become a major metagame conern and if we are playing fetchlands pithing needle is no longer a dead card against us.
So if you wan't to cut the brainstorms I'd suggest adding 2 lands and 4 peer through depths, and cutting twincasts and or brainfreezes in addition to brainstorm.

Carlos El Salvador

09-26-2005, 05:01 PM

I'm sorry, but I might be wrong when I play my fetchlands (which I do a lot of, seeing as I think 8 is optimal). Generally, unless I already have a brainstorm in hand, or if I have no other lands in hand, I fetch right away. There are a couple reasons for this.

1) Random cards do suck (stifle, Needle, etc.)
2) It improves the overall quality of the following draws if you have nearly engouth or engouth land in your hand.

There are reasons to not fetch, but one of them is because you might draw a brainstorm. You have less of a chance of drawing a brainstorm if you don't pop fetchlands right away. As for supression feild, I can say this... Die Survival and Ravagah, die!

Onto other issues:

I don't nessisarly like thirst for knowledge, but I do think it's a decent draw spell. I also perfer having somthing in my board to wish for when I need to draw cards, and sometimes you need to be able to draw four cards, with meditate. It's a personal thing mostly. Mid combo I think is when the card is at its' best. Drawing 3 cards and discarding two lands is so nice...

Bye

disrupted

09-27-2005, 11:48 PM

In my experiences playing High Tide decks in 1.5 and Legacy [since Mirrodin Block] Chalice set for 1 and 2 destroy the deck utterly. It is easily fetched by any deck with access to enlightened tutor [obv]

This being said and given the ability for any control deck to play and protect a chalice and not needing to protect a the second resolved chalice a solution is Rushing River. One card I cannot be convinced to play this deck without a copy of in the side.

Many fear the chalice as shutting down their own decks but Landstill has little to lose. If the High Tide player is shut down man lands or an angel can easily win. Rushing River is by no means competetive with COV or ET but it is valuable.

I also feel that as the meta develops a stronger hate package for this deck that bounce needs to be sided into the main not solely as a Wishable answer. I side in 2 COV 1 ET and 1 RR VS the full control hate package.

I think + 2 bounce -2 BEB effects in the sideboard gives the deck more versatility in beating the meta as a whole but I certainly understand if RDW/Gobbo is your personal meta the 8 Blast plan.

These points are certainly arguable in the "What is the very best build", but hopefully might help out another High Tide player.

If you cant cope with me calling the deck High Tide sorry. Solidarity never fit for me.

herbig

09-28-2005, 05:18 AM

Rebuild is almost always going to be better than Rushing River and even then I'd say its not necessary. Double Chalice is aweful to see, but unless there is an abundance of Stax there is no reason to move away from the eight Blasts. Against any deck but Stax you're more than likely going to have time to bounce a single Chalice, and if theres two then you've really just been unlucky. There are really only two decks that use Enlightened Tutor, and if they're putting out their first Chalice on time, they aren't Tutoring up another one. You should have a Wish or Force by their second Chalice if you suspect it. I guess what I mean to say is that double Chalice is as much an issue as double Jitte.

Rule of Law and the like are most often played by slow decks, such as ATS and Landstill, which gives you enough time to Wish them away if you play correctly. Pyrostatic pillar, the fastest hate card you will see come into play, is coincidentally countered/destroyed by one of eight cards you should have in your deck.

These are just my experiences in playing Solidarity, perhaps you've seen different.

ExpectLess

09-28-2005, 01:49 PM

However, that's not the point of (Also Mysterious Subject the Fourth), the real point of (Also Mysterious Subject the Fourth) is this, the possibility of adding both rebuild and annul to the board. Menendian 5-0'd Ewokslayer (although he did mulligan 4 of the 5 games) and the possibility of multiple copies of his deck existing is a little off-putting.

From what I've seen so far it looks like Solidarity just bends over to Flame Vault. It has a more protected and faster fundamental turn (on the verge of being broken, imo. It can practically beat all the tier 1 decks relatively easily with the exception of Goblins). Needless to say, I think a two card guaranteed instant kill for 5R that's tutorable, wishable, and protectable is indeed broken, but that's not the point. If this deck does survive into the metagame I think at least 4 Annul/Rebuild/Hurkyl's Recall is a must. With 10 counters pre-sideboard this deck spells a lot of trouble for Solidarity and the other tier 1 (and 2, and 3...) decks. It's like if Landstill had a turn 3 clock. [oh]

But even if we do have 4 more counters against Flame Vault though, will it be enough? And if we did remove 4 BEB from the SB, is it worth it at the expense of weaking our Goblin/Burn matchup?

I only hope they errata Time Vault again.

And as for the Chalice issue, I've never played a tournament game where an opponent has had 2 in play. With counters, bounces, the poor probability of both drawing and playing two on the opponent's part, and the scarcity of stax decks, I think it's really unlikely that double Chalice will ever be an issue. At least, certainly not enough of one to merit wasting SB slots on.

Ewokslayer

09-28-2005, 02:20 PM

You are talking about a different Flame Vault deck. The blue based counter deck I don't expect to be that much of a problem as it still has to spend 4 mana in its main phase to kill and applies no other pressure. The real problem is the vault combo in the stax shell giving stax's a kill condition outside of boring the opponent to death. Not to mention vault has synergy with other components in that shell.

Lukas Preuss

09-28-2005, 02:22 PM

I just checked the price for Time Vault... it's like 80 Dollars a piece.

Even if this deck proves to be as good as it seems to be, I don't think that any meta will be flooded with Time Vault combo decks... And since Goblins seems to have at least a fair game against this new combo deck, I think that it will still be played a lot in the future.

I don't think that taking out 4 Blasts for 4 annul (etc.) would be too smart... you will still be facing way more Goblins than Time Vault combo decks.

Oh, and btw, Blasts can target Flame Fusillade, as well... that's not much, but it's at least something...

disrupted

09-28-2005, 11:08 PM

Regarding the issue of never seeing a double chalice have you ever played High Tide against a deck packing 4 in sideboard?

Hurkly's is an excellent suggestion and good against random arti decks also. I just prefer the versatility of Rushing River.

I play 4x Chalice in my mbc deck to combat burn. I have had two in play and hosed High Tide. I have faced two chalice VS U/W control variants and wished for my then sideboarded Rushing River to get out.

If I had a chalice in my opening hand VS high tide and an enlightened tutor I think I would Tutor 1st and Chalice second. Which is what any smart player would do. SO the example of a player hosing himself with a Chalice assumes too much. If I was going to fight U/W or Landstill variants turn 1-5 in a counter/bounce war and not go off in the process I think Im losing.

If there is no Chalice in your Metas great Im glad to here that. But the spell is played and the examples given regarding the inability of control to resolve and protect the first chalice and again their not really needing to protect the second VS the standard sideboard list are not really well thought out.

Double chalice is game without 3cc bounce. Yes or no? If it is what do you lose with bounce? BEB. 1 COV instead of 1 BEB still bounces the Warchief before attackers and still does nothing VS Piledriver. So yes the Gob/RDW matches are very slightly weakened by the loss of BEB no debate there.

As a aside there are random but good ehchantress decks in my meta from time to time and they have nearly locked me out many times. Additional bounce has helped immensly in this matchup.

I guess we are all really just debating metas. Which is great, optimal builds aside improving the options through shared experience is what its all about. All thought on the subject were appreciated!TY.

GAUDARD

09-29-2005, 10:43 PM

So then how can a meta for something big like the GP in Philly be predicted?

twipcast

09-29-2005, 11:22 PM

anyone still think this deck has what it takes to, i dunno, win philly? now, i may be new here, but i've read all 12 pages of debate, heard (metaphorically) the arguments, and devised my own conclusions...though i am curious as to whether or not you guys still back solidarity. i'm newer to how legacy runs, but i have moderate t1 experience, especially with combo decks, and i'd like someone to play devil's advocate against the way i've perceived the deck. correct me if i'm off, but isn't the ultimate goal of any storm deck to see more cards so as to play them to increase the storm count? i'm leading towards why some of the builds listed over the forum don't run peer through depths, thirst for knowledge, or thawing glaciers. i'll list the build i came up with after some thinking (and i actually have the deck built as well so this isn't just an exercise in theory) and i'd like some evaluation if you guys would be so kind.

i know what i think may not be the ideal, but i'm trying to get to a build i'm comfortable enough with to take philly. feedback is appreciated, but please keep it civil, i'm just trying to tweak the deck as much as i can, thanks.

btw...how do you write down an ending sig or get pics like you guys have? i'm a little more than helpless when it comes to computer literacy

Lukas Preuss

09-30-2005, 08:41 AM

Well, first of all, try to fit more Twincasts and some Flash of Insights... they're great.

I wouldn't run Thawing Glaciers, because they're too slow. Against fast decks, you have to be able to go off by turn 3 or 4. This is very difficult with Glaciers in play. They're nice against slower decks, but you shouldn't have a problem against those decks anyways, so I would suggest cutting the Glaciers for fetchlands...

GAUDARD

09-30-2005, 12:54 PM

anyone still think this deck has what it takes to, i dunno, win philly? now, i may be new here, but i've read all 12 pages of debate, heard (metaphorically) the arguments, and devised my own conclusions...though i am curious as to whether or not you guys still back solidarity. i'm newer to how legacy runs, but i have moderate t1 experience, especially with combo decks, and i'd like someone to play devil's advocate against the way i've perceived the deck. correct me if i'm off, but isn't the ultimate goal of any storm deck to see more cards so as to play them to increase the storm count? i'm leading towards why some of the builds listed over the forum don't run peer through depths, thirst for knowledge, or thawing glaciers. i'll list the build i came up with after some thinking (and i actually have the deck built as well so this isn't just an exercise in theory) and i'd like some evaluation if you guys would be so kind.

i know what i think may not be the ideal, but i'm trying to get to a build i'm comfortable enough with to take philly. feedback is appreciated, but please keep it civil, i'm just trying to tweak the deck as much as i can, thanks.

btw...how do you write down an ending sig or get pics like you guys have? i'm a little more than helpless when it comes to computer literacy
/me thinks it will be a very good choice for philly.
It is likely I will play a build.

Once you high tide and reset a time or two your goal is to cycle through your deck till you get to about 15 spells... then brainfreeze and stroke them out. I usually use words of wisdom though.

The best way to cycle through your deck is with flash of insight... flash for 15 + twincast = look at 30 cards, setup your next 30 draws....

Twincast has been my MVP, it allows me to go off ontop of multiple force/counterspell/siroco

It's funny, I used to run Peer through Depths when I first picked up the deck a while back because it seemed a natural inclusion, but the more you play with it, the more you'll see why it's sub-par compared to the rest of the deck. On a side note, the only real purpose of cantrips is to search for combo pieces/lands before you go off and to raise the storm count and assure redundancy in cards that you need during the combo. The point is, cantrips that can't search for land pretty much shouldn't be included in the deck. And if you are playing cards that aren't going to assure you land drops, you might as well play the best cards (see: Twincast).

Flash of Insightx2 is a must; there is so substitute for such anti-fizzling technology. Twincast also has a whole bunch of synergy with a lot of the cards in the deck. It's not that Peer through Depths or Tfk are necessarily bad, it's just that there are better cards to include for a 60 card deck.

Thawing Glaciers really are terrible for the deck. You waste a land drop and mana to get an island 2 turns later. Besides, not worrying about Wasteland is such a huge benefit for Solidarity. Adding Glaciers completely removes this advantage. Again, when I first picked up the deck I thought they were a natural inclusion, but it's just not how the deck works. The Glacier/Reset bit isn't amazing anyway, it's a 'win more' scenario.

And unless Legacy sees a surge in decks like Pox or Stax (unprobable), I think Solidarity has a great chance of stealing philly. The thing about Solidarity is that it takes an absurd amount of skill and practice to play correctly. On top of that, the deck is fairly scarce because of cards like Reset, so people generally underestimate the strength of Solidarity based on tournament results simply because it's not found in anywhere near the numbers of the other tier 1 decks. There are so many ins and outs of the deck that unless you're a veteran at it, it's not going to be a tier 1 deck. In the hands of someone experienced, however, Solidarity is easily one of the best decks in the format.

Sideboard
1 Twincast
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
1 Words of Wisdom
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Evacuation
4 Hydroblast
4 Blue Elemental Blast[/quote:post_uid9]
I have a local tournament tonight I wanted to know if this is the optimum build?? I have no idea of what the meta will consist of, but I built this deck just the way it is stated and I would really like an opinion of if it will work out well or not?? I know he created the deck so it has to be good, right?? I know not every deck will work in every meta but I just want a great starting point, so if I`m heading in the right direction someone please let me know, I dont want to get slaughtered. Thanx.[/color:post_uid9]

Ewokslayer

09-30-2005, 02:04 PM

@ Jeska
That is the current "best" build of Solidarity.
For your local tournament you might what to scope out and see what other people are playing in order to figure out if what belongs in the board over one of the BEBs.
If there are a lot of chalices and affinity go with rebuild if not the 8 blast plan is some good. If there is a lot of Landstill you might want a second copy of a bounce spell in place of the 8th blast.

GAUDARD

09-30-2005, 02:42 PM

add 1 poluted delta, subtract 1 flooded strand. They do the exact same thing so there is no advantage that I can think of for running 4-2, but a pithing needle on flooded strand can spell a problem for you.

Deep6er

09-30-2005, 05:34 PM

anyone still think this deck has what it takes to, i dunno, win philly? now, i may be new here, but i've read all 12 pages of debate, heard (metaphorically) the arguments, and devised my own conclusions...though i am curious as to whether or not you guys still back solidarity. i'm newer to how legacy runs, but i have moderate t1 experience, especially with combo decks, and i'd like someone to play devil's advocate against the way i've perceived the deck. correct me if i'm off, but isn't the ultimate goal of any storm deck to see more cards so as to play them to increase the storm count? i'm leading towards why some of the builds listed over the forum don't run peer through depths, thirst for knowledge, or thawing glaciers. i'll list the build i came up with after some thinking (and i actually have the deck built as well so this isn't just an exercise in theory) and i'd like some evaluation if you guys would be so kind

If you've actually read through the 12 pages of discussion, then how is it that you've come to the conclusion that thawing glaciers and peer through depths are good in this deck? No offense but the list you've presented to us definitely seems like you've skimmed through like half of it and just figured what you think would be good without analyzing what the deck is actually supposed to do and how it's designed. I've come to the absolute conclusion and belief that anybody who says Flash of Insight does not belong in this deck does not know how this deck works. If you look back at all of MY decklists, you'll see that I never once cut Flash. Also, out of curiousity, I'm assuming that you don't think the deck can win philly because you don't think the deck is good. I've also noticed that players who don't know how to play the deck assume the deck is bad. See the line of logic here. Now, I am in no way saying that you are a bad player. All I'm saying is that, in general, players who assume this deck is bad is one of the key signs of knowing who does and who does not know how the deck plays.

LinkXwing

09-30-2005, 06:31 PM

If you've actually read through the 12 pages of discussion, then how is it that you've come to the conclusion that thawing glaciers and peer through depths are good in this deck?
Also keep in mind that there was a 20 page thread before this one where lots was discussed, including the inclusion of Force of Will, Peer through the depths vs. Impulse, Thawing Glaciers or no? and many other things. I would hope someone building the deck would read through these 12 pages but honestly it might be unrealistic for someone to read through 32 pages worth.

scrumdogg

10-01-2005, 07:38 AM

If I'm serious about learning the deck, especially in preparation for a high level tournament that can pay me 2400-3990 dollars, I will most definitely read 32 pages. And then re-read them. And then ask questions. And playtest my ass off. 32 pages? That's a moderate homework assignment, people do that every day (unless you are a member of Team BadShit and take the short bus to Special School and draw unicorns & play with blocks...). Proper preparation includes research and learning all the mistakes & wrong alleys other people have discovered - why reinvent the wheel? Who has that much time. On the other hand, a concise modern primer would be an awesome thing (and a helluva SCG article)....

Nightmare

10-01-2005, 10:37 AM

(unless you are a member of Team BadShit and take the short bus to Special School and draw unicorns & play with blocks...)
Seriously Scrum, Leave the Shitlist out of it. Its all TPN00b and his guys, we had nothing to do with any of the stupidity in MM.

On topic, you are right. If someone is seriously considering bringing Solidarity to Philly, then they had damn well better read 32 pages of material and test their ass off, especially if they intend to post a list and ask our opinions on it. There's no excuse for skimming through it and assuming wrong things that have been discussed ad nauseum. Thawing Glaciers, while a cute trick with untap effects, costs too much mana and tempo to be worth it. Fetches effectively do the same thing - thin the deck - but better. Flash MUST be included, because it stops you from literally EVER fizzling. Switching Brainstorm for Opt is a terrible idea, because it digs 1 card vs. 3, and switching out MEDITATE for Thirst for Knowledge.... I can't even come up with anything there.... just.... no. No.

Slay

10-01-2005, 11:03 AM

I just read through the 20 pages of discussion, and I could literally count the important pertinant decklist decisions made on one hand. Most of that thread was total rehash, as well. In fact, many of the changes that were mande only got a few posts attributed to it. Opt appeared out of nowhere, Thirst was questioned than forgotten about, and somehow Words of Wisdom went from being a 4-of to a 0-of without explanation. Peer Through Depths was discussed in depth, but only in the context of Peer vs. Impulse, not Peer + Impulse vs Opt + Impulse or Thirst + Impulse. Anyone who wants to get into this deck will have a much better idea of the complexities of the deck and actually important things by reading the last few pages.

As far as I see it, here is the skeleton for a modern Solidarity build:

That's 6 slots up for debate. The stuff that goes in the last few slots is still under consideration, and pretty much whatever you put in those slots is up to you. Reading through 20 pages of stupid banter(including about 3-4 pages worth of FoW discussion) is honestly not necessary. Now please, let's stop discussing people who play the deck and start discussing the deck itself.
-Slay

MattH

10-01-2005, 12:12 PM

4 High Tide
4 Reset
7 Turnabout/Meditate(1 side)
2 Flash
3 Cunning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
4 Brainfreeze
4 Force
18 Island/Fetch
Really? All four Brain Freeze, maindeck? At the very least, I would think you'd want one to wish for (personally I HATE drawing these mid-combo and would not run more than 2 maindeck, but I realize that's unlikely to be a popular notion).

Slay

10-01-2005, 12:36 PM

Perhaps I play the deck differently than you. I play to get around 8 or 9 storm, toss a few Brainfreezes, and win. The actual task of getting to 15+ storm count is tedious and painful, particularly if oyu don't get a Flash.

Also, if you remember back a few pages, Brainfreeze can be used as a draw spell. I never dislike drawing one midcombo, and if I draw 2 midcombo, I win.
-Slay

ExpectLess

10-01-2005, 04:58 PM

Opt appeared out of nowhere, Thirst was questioned than forgotten about, and somehow Words of Wisdom went from being a 4-of to a 0-of without explanation

I think a lot of discussion is left out for obvious choices that, when we each individually tested, we can to the same conclusion. When Opt was first suggested, everyone tried it out, and everyone realized it both fit the mana curve and provided a desperately needed one mana cantrip that can search for lands. As for Tfk, even the people who did play it would acknowledge it was the weakest card in their decklist and thus when better cards like Twincast were found, it was cut without discussion. Words of Wisdom were lost for extremely obvious reasons; by the time you'd ever need to use one (ie, for the kill), you'd have enough resources to search for a Cunning Wish and just get one from the board. Discussion usually only happens on choices that are debatable.

And for the millionth time, the optimal decklist is the one posted by Deep3r (requoted on the last page). The sideboard might vary by meta by a card or two, but other than that, that is the best list at this time.

Slay

10-01-2005, 05:28 PM

The point I'm making is that telling someone to read the book-long threads about Solidarity is pointless because the decisions that have been made haven't been given any other reason than "it's a better card than what we've got." As pertinent of a reason it is, that can't be figured out unless you play thousands of playtest games like Deep6er did. Starting from the optimal list and working from there is clearly a much better solution than reading through over a year's worth of useless crap.

Also, be careful. You're very close to saying that Deep6er's list is sacred, and that changes to it are wrong. I personally think it's as close to a perfect list is we could get, but I'm still tinkering with the card varieties. Now the skeleton I posted, that actually is a sacred cow(excepting, perhaps, the Brainfreezes).

Back on topic: Has anyone else tested Telling Time? It's been very clutch for me in the early game, but when I'm really in the dumps, it doesn't help me dig through my deck, and when I'm going off, it's been fantasically mediocre, and it often has stalled me in finding my power draw spells.
-Slay

GAUDARD

10-01-2005, 06:14 PM

What turns do you usually win on? Goldfishing?

Do you usually win the turn that they would win?

Do you win in a specific part of their turn?

The reason I'm asking, is I haven't ever been pleased to draw a brainfreeze in my opening hand... most of the time I don't want to draw it till I'm ready to win. So I must be playing it differently, which may not be optimal.

I've played about 50 games of this matchup with various people. Currently I'm 23-27 which is pritty good I think considering it is widely regarded as the deck to beat. All of these games are pre board, we are just starting boarded testing and don't have any recorded results yet. Here is a typical game against goblins. I play land, cantrip for the first 3 turns. I only force lackys, piledrivers, and warchiefs. If they are going to swing for the w on turn 3 or 4 I respond and try to win. The thought behind this is that if I don't... I could turnabout their guys, which never really works because I'm about to skip 1-3 turns in a row. To win I get to 15+/- spells, then Cunning Wish for Words of Wisdom. Then I words and respond with Brain Freeze, brain freeze resolves, words resolves, win. Otherwise they just swing and win.

The only benefit of playing 3 Brain Freeze would be if I'm playing against a deck with blessings, or I can some how draw multiple resets, tides, and brain freeze and get to 4 of 5 spells... which with 3 brain freeze = 15-18 copies of brain freeze and a win. Having played desire in extended it was really nice to play ak, ak, mox, mox, mox, and then 3 brain freeze. But that was the only time I wanted to draw multiple brain freezes and moxes.

kobefan

10-01-2005, 08:06 PM

I was kinda thinking why does this deck frequently play 17-19 lands? When playing the deck I've noticed that most of the times I lose is because either I get raced by my opponents god hand or I lose to not drawing enough lands. So what would happen if you you were to cut some of the shitty cantrips like opt for some lands and the more powerful draw spells? Well, this opens you up a little more to losing to a single counterspell, solution, you add Red for Pryoblast for your SB. The blast could take down both meddling mages and counterspells. Here is my proposed list

This build really goes off when comboing, and can draw the entire deck. I really don't see the point of playing more than 1 Brainfreeze in the MD if you draw the entire deck.

One thing that I'd also like to note is FoW is even worse in this build, because pitching a card is often much worse when you can't just pitch opt or something bad like that.

I've actually considered cutting the FoWs for either miscalculations (then fitting mystical tutor in the MD too) or just Rebs because they are for the most part already dead vs. non-blue decks, why not just play the better disruption card? Do you guys think Red is a good choice for High Tide?