if you read the translator notes that I have put here it will clarify the issue for those who still didn't get it.

My question is, how many people actually believe this theory about Ha Ji, her being a wicked woman? or is she really in fact stupid but has her smart moments from time to time?

For me personally I will believe that she is a wicked woman, not necessarily bad but wicked... the biggest proof was that she chose to shoot the gun in her hand to save her own life instead of Sin Huoo and then tries to lay the blame on Han Seo. Also the fact that throughout the manhwa sometimes it felt as if she was manipulating people through her stupidity.

I really don't want to believe that she's bad myself, because if she had shot that gun and it had killed Sin Huoo, wouldn't that make her bad? If you love someone, doesnt it mean that you're prepared to die for them, or was she trying to protect Han Suo as well, because if she hadn't shot then wouldn't he have died as well? Plus, when she was hanging from that cliff, it seemed that she treasured Han Seo's life more than her own because she kept screaming at him to let go...does that mean she loves Han Seo more than Sin Huoo....im totally confused. If Ha Ji is infact a cruel minded person it completely spoils the entire manga for me. Another thing was that death reaper guy could read minds right? How come he never detected anything malicious in her? Is it possible to control your thoughts 24 hours a day??

Oh and another thing, if she was a holy spirit how can she be wicked? Or maybe a holy spirit isnt exactly what I think it i? I really think the author should have made these points more clear....

if you read the translator notes that I have put here it will clarify the issue for those who still didn't get it.

My question is, how many people actually believe this theory about Ha Ji, her being a wicked woman? or is she really in fact stupid but has her smart moments from time to time?

For me personally I will believe that she is a wicked woman, not necessarily bad but wicked... the biggest proof was that she chose to shoot the gun in her hand to save her own life instead of Sin Huoo and then tries to lay the blame on Han Seo. Also the fact that throughout the manhwa sometimes it felt as if she was manipulating people through her stupidity.

I certainly think she is smarter than she lets on to various people and perhaps as a result is fairly manipulative. I can't think of her as totally bad for doing some of the things she has done (because after all, considering some of the things they have done to her in the first place), but I do think the Manwhaga has created her so we wonder how 'wicked', or manipulative, she truly is to the people around her (because I think she has her genuine stupid moments ).

Ha Ji's stubbornness in believing in Han Seo really ticks me off, Sin Woo actually accomodates a lot for her and he's a real sweetheart when he does that. But yes, I think she is wicked to an extent. But she still isnt the most hated character in the manga..Aram is!! so I can forgive Ha Ji's wickedness once I can get it stamped that Ha Ji is no "pure soul". and yes, I think she acts stupid, just to escape ..

How many of you actually READ the manhwa? Or is it just that the translation is bad, or is it the translation notes you mention that makes you think that way? Translators are supposed to leave stupid comments and their own opinions out of their translation. They're not supposed to be real. They're supposed to do their job, nothing more. Try reading it again and actually pay attention to what's being said, and either think about it yourself, or not think at all. And don't always trust the stupid translations.

Sure it was the "coward" choice to shoot, but after being beat down, kicked down the stairs, and thrown off a building, I'd be ready to believe that I was going to end up crushed by a chandelier.

Heck, I would have stopped playing the trust game after the building incident. Really thinking about it,

Spoiler (highlight to view)

how likely was it that Sin Uoo would die if she shot him through the door? I'd assume it would be more likely that she'd get killed if crushed by a heavy chandelier. I think that if I was in that situation, I'd shoot and hope I didn't hit any vital organs. Like Han Seo could really line up the gun for a kill shot through a door. He'd have to predict how Sin Uoo would approach the door.

But here's what I really thought was interesting: People are saying that if she really loved him, she would sacrifice her life for Sin Uoo's. But she was sitting right there with Han Seo who also, if everything he'd said was true,

Spoiler (highlight to view)

would be crushed upon Sin Uoo opening the door. Taking that a step further with the fact that she told him to let her go when she was dangling off the breaking banister so that he wouldn't fall too, wouldn't that, given the earlier portrayal of love actions, be proof that maybe she really does love him (and possibly more than Sin Uoo)? So wouldn't that be a confirmation of her feelings for him?

I think that, in the end, her love for Han Seo was greater than for Sin Uoo, but her attraction to Sin Uoo was more than for Han Seo who I think she always saw as more of a brother anyway.

Last bit. The argument that she's terrible for wanting to stay friends with someone because he had feelings for her. Obsessive and near murderous feelings for her. If you have a friend who confesses to you and you say no, does that mean that you can never be friends again? That makes absolutely no sense. The all or nothing approach is probably the worst approach to relationships and really makes me sick. (Sorry, personal opinion encroaching. Pulling back.) It's kind of an unfair expectation and I think there's more selfishness on the side of the one trying to enforce that kind of restriction. If you were friends for a long time, you would care if that person got hurt and you would certainly be sad if they forgot all about you even if they weren't your significant other. I'm having trouble seeing that as selfish. Why so many relationship restrictions?

There is absolutely nothing to indicate that she is, except perhaps some translation notes it seems. If the translator says that, then the translator is a moron. Is she wicked? Is she pretending to be stupid? Anyone who thinks either is who's stupid.

She's not stupid and never were. It's been a while since I last read this, but as long as I remember never once did she pretend to be stupid either.

Personally I don't think "wicked" is an appropriate way to describe Haji. I think she's a hedonist. Everyone chose to be the way that they were; Haji never directly manipulated anyone. When I said wicked in my post I was referring to the connotation that she wasn't "pure" and showed some corruption.

I like to believe that Haji was just a bit of a misjudged hedonist and that she purposely didn't think through her decisions to make her life better. Readers tend to forget that Haji is supposed to be a holy soul (whatever that means in context) so how well her mind can be read and how "simplistic" she truly is should be debatable. There's some things Haji, her family, and others (like San Heo's friend) say about her that kind of indicate that she isn't. Also, the epilogue.

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but as long as I remember never once did she pretend to be stupid either.

There was that scene:

Spoiler (mouse over to view)

Where she pretended to be oblivious when the guy (darn it forgot his name) put the scissors to her throat and she confronted him saying that she would continue to pretend to be stupid

________________I like my men androgynous. I like my women androgynous.

I hadn't read your post, but now that I did, you seem to have lost the point by over-analyzing. It's like when someone just paints a tree because it's pretty and then critics find all kinds of religious symbolism and what-not in it. Missing the forest for the trees?

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When I said wicked in my post

Which post is this?

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I was referring to the connotation that she wasn't "pure"

She's a delinquent.

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she purposely didn't think through her decisions to make her life better

I know that she's a delinquent. When reading others tend to think of her as ditzy and sometimes one can misconstrue that as pureness due to a lack of deceit (supposedly). I should attempt to make my differences clear.

To the comment that my idea is absurd, how? One could argue that Haji's singlemindness is just a way to make her life easier, which is what I purport hedonism to mean and if Haji is "greedy" as some insightful characters in the current translation have said then wouldn't that at least be plausible? If Haji isn't stupid wouldn't self-preservation be absolute (one interpretation of the final scenes before the epilogue prove that).

Wasn't there a sort of "game" mentioned? Players, strategy, ect.

One could say that she's repressing.

I don't like things like "to each their own", so I won't bother closing with that. I don't support logical fallacies either, but if you're going to talk about author's intent I would appreciate some sort backing for that claim. Which is something I suspect you believe in.

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when someone just paints a tree because it's pretty and then critics find all kinds of religious symbolism and what-not in it.

You know, I'm not up for beating around the bush and I encourage bluntness of opinion. Were you attempting to discuss/debate this or were you just going to rebuff what I said?

Refrain from analogizing my perspective. I'm not going to denounce my own egotism, but yours is clearly showing. All you did was nitpick and pinpoint what didn't suit your conclusions. To your response of "what post" it is probable that I omitted that detail for whatever reason. That can be confusing and for that I apologize.

Now if you cannot see how I arrived at my conclusions about your viewpoint/attitude at the very least then there is something else going on here.

To be clear, I believe that the idea that Haji is wicked/evil and stupid to be ludicrous (something I agreed with you on) and that there are some layers to her character. Just like the idea of "poker face" that is mentioned for volumes.

I believe in this because there is evidence to support my standpoint. As far as I recall, the person/people responsible for the translator's note was/were the one/s that translated the work. My argument is that the translation itself is proof enough to verify their claims and that it isn't an a**pull. Whether it was originally intended or not, it doesn't change the fact that it was alluded to in the translated version. The only reasons notes are made to begin with is to provide clarity for the work that one has done.

Finally, I've always believed in something of "give and take" in an argument to build a better understanding or possible consensus. I assume, sadly, that's not going to happen here.

Last edited by CynicallyOp at 2:13 am, Sep 27

________________I like my men androgynous. I like my women androgynous.

I'd say making life better and making life easier are two different things. And it's a delinquent stereotype in manga that they make their life "easy". Of course that's not all there is. Stereotyping is distorting, but to forget it is also wrong, especially in popular fiction.

And no, I'm not intending to debate this (I kinda started though). What I meant by that is that you're making up abstractions on the topic and although I can see the value (and fun) in doing that, I'm not really interested (at least in this topic). At first I took you for an idiot. I generalised as it's easier and there's usually no reason to reconsider, this was an exception.

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I assume, sadly, that's not going to happen here.

Mainly for assuming it you assume correct. There's also the fact that the topics where I join the argument tend to get locked up for some unknown reason (possible it's a curse).