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If I ever meet the man in charge of Details magazine’s online content, I’m going to kick his dick off. I mean it, dude.

I know that giving Details any traffic or attention whatsoever is probably ill-advised. I mean, the content of the magazine and the related website is usually so egregiously misogynistic and juvenile that I’m positive that, if it isn’t outright satire (ah, if only), then it’s at least intended to be salacious and alarming for the sake of increasing magazine sales and website traffic. Still, there are plenty of people out there who aren’t aware of that fact and will come away from the site’s articles thinking this is where journalism is at, that aggressive sexual exploitation and objectification (of women, of course) are the order of the day, that it’s time to get on the train to Doublepenetrationville or get left at Homo Station. Hence, I consider it my responsibility to at least direct a few sane individuals over to participate in the commentating on the site’s message boards.

Anyone who has been around on feminist blogs for awhile will remember the old Peter Rubin piece on the Details site about whether it was OK to “demand anal” (see Twisty’s take here, as I’ll not be linking to the original). That article was so outrageous and absurd that I assumed I’d never find anything to rival it, but then along came another Details online article by some likely Adult Swim and Joe Rogan fan named Eric Spitznagel entitled “How Internet Porn is Changing Teen Sex.” Now, one would assume that, with a title like that, the article might contain a sentence or two of analysis, but instead it just reads like a catalog of some slobbering old creep’s wet dreams about sexually abusing underage girls. You don’t have to take my word for it. Click here if you’re in need of a good puke.

If you’d rather not read the article, I understand. Worry not; Deuce will sum it all up for you and contextualize the shit out of it so you can go over there and comment without being forced to read Spitznagel’s mediocre writing or his exhaustive list of revolting statutory rape fantasies.

It all starts off with the article’s subtitle: “Forget awkward fumblings in the back of the bus. Junior’s thinking more along the lines of reverse-cowgirl anal.” First off, “fumbling” is not a noun, and hence it cannot be pluralized. Duh. But really, is Spitznagel about to try to tell us that the average fourteen-year-old boy is so blase about sexual contact with girls that he requires anal sex to muster any excitement? Am I to assume that teenage boys have somehow overcome the social and sexual anxieties and fears that have plagued adolescents since the dawn of time? I don’t make out with a whole lot of teenagers, but I doubt it.

Spitznagel recounts his own experiences with porn as an adolescent — borrowing issues of Hustler from a friend to toss to — and remarks that the average teenager today would consider wanking over copies of the magazine that once featured women being turned into ground beef on its cover “quaint.” Quaint? Doilies are quaint. Small English villages are quaint. I’m pretty sure that images of women having their heads shoved into toilets while some skeezy guido porks them from behind aren’t quaint.

But anyway… Spitznagel then goes on to drop a few facts and anecdotes on us that, were I to give him far more credit than is his due, I’d suspect he chose in order to sneakily intimate what’s wrong with the effects the porn industry has on modern sexuality:

The awkward truth, according to one study, is that 90 percent of 8-to-16-year-olds have viewed pornography online. Considering the standard climax to even the most vanilla hard-core scene today, that means there is an entire generation of young people who think sex ends with a money shot to the face.

Well, that’s not good. (Of course, the “one study” isn’t cited, so we don’t know whether that figure is accurate, but I suppose it’s conceivable that it is.) He then quotes Seth Rogen (you don’t say), who reads porn message boards for fun:

“It’s hilarious how much these kids know,” Rogen says. “There’ll be arguments like ‘This is classified as gonzo, but I would say it’s more of a feature-BDSM. Also, they say this clip is taken from Handjobs #8, but this scene was actually first featured in Killer Grips #7.'”

And then two college dicks:

“Pubic hair is disgusting,” Travis says. “Girls should keep their vaginas porn-star trim.” Cody describes his first real-life ejaculate-to-the-face finale like this: “It was the happiest moment of my young life. There is just something about blowing a load in a chick’s face that makes you feel like a man.”

I suspect sometimes that over at Details these quotes from first-name-only dudes are phonied up in order to get a reaction out of people, but it isn’t beyond the realm of possibility that these two assholes exist. If they do, their attitude is certainly repugnant, but, as Spitznagel says, “boys have always been perverts.” What about the girls? Well, apparently at least one young woman thinks taking one in the face is “empowering.” Here’s Spitznagel (re)quoting a 22-year-old woman named Lindsay:

“Even if she has eight dicks on her face, she’s still the queen of those eight dicks,” she says. “I definitely like come on the face.”

Lindsay, having internalized the prevailing argument of pornographers and smirking perverts everywhere, has added hers to the roar of voices that would drown out the protestations of those of us who don’t think black is white, down is up, and getting jizzed on is the road to equality. How very, very sad. But it gets worse. Spitznagel, altruistically shouldering one of the heaviest burdens that the male pop journalist must bear, trolled a few porn sites, dug through mounds of pornographic images to find female porn stars’ blogs, and found that many of the “veterans” were surprised at how “porn-ready” adolescent girls seem to be these days. There are thirteen-year-old girls who idolize Jenna Jameson, 250 of 1000 adolescent females surveyed in Great Britain hope to one day become strippers, teenage girls come to porn sets already well versed in what’s expected of them, and so on ad nauseum.

Alright, dude, we get it: widespread porn consumption among teenagers has led to an expectation among young men that sex ought to mimic porn, and hence that women ought to submit to all manner of the degrading and potentially harmful acts that mainstream porn depicts. That’s fucking terrible news, as us anti-porn feminists have been saying all along.

Oh, wait, that’s not where you’re going with this?

Sigh. I knew it:

For most men over 30, facials aren’t something you actually do. They’re like car chases or hurling someone through a plate-glass window—the difference between cinema and life. But the ubiquity of porn has blurred the line [among young people]…

To those of us who came of age in the eighties and nineties—the dinosaurs once naïvely content with even the most terrible, chafing teen hand job—it feels a bit like looking down from an attic window onto the Haight-Ashbury during the Summer of Love. Let the young have their Twitter and their Jonas Brothers—we have no interest. But this kind of hurts.

How in god’s name could anyone trot out a laundry list like that of porn’s social effects and come to the conclusion that things have changed for the better with the growth of the internet porn industry? I think I might know the answer to that. If, let’s say, one was so blinded by privilege and entitlement as to conceive of women chiefly as dick receptacles, one might come to the conclusion that a media genre that is helping to brainwash an entire generation of young women to believe that being a dick receptacle is a real party is a boon to the young men who reap the “benefits” of the success of that media genre.

And, really, who can blame Spitznagel? When he’s able to find, like, six women willing to confirm his hopeful supposition that young women just love being used, abused, and ejaculated upon, why would he give it any more thought? Why give up the privilege of using and exploiting women’s bodies by proxy when one can point to a few women who like being degraded, having it taped, and having it broadcast around the world via the Internet? Why think about the damage that the porn industry does to the real women involved in it, to the real women who might not want to rip their pubes out by the roots, who might not want eight dicks on their faces, who might not be cool with their partners expectingthem to submit to the degradation and humiliation that characterize almost all Internet porn, when you can choose instead to listen to the women who find it easier to join ’em than try to beat ’em? Why empathize with the young women who haven’t bought into the porn industry’s ideas about what women are here for when they are sexually abused by boys who have when you can point to thirteen-year-old whores (come on, like that wasn’t the intimation) who wanna be Jenna Jameson when they grow up? Essentially, why take any responsibility for your complicity in an aggressively misogynistic and exploitative sexual culture when you can blame the victims?

What an asshole.

PS – To those of you who like to come over here and argue that men can tell the difference between porn and real life, and who claim that porn has no effect on the way men treat their sexual partners, I give you Eric Spitznagel’s take and respectfully ask you to shut the fuck up. Also, I think y’all might want to head over to the site and tell him he’s blowing your cover.

253 Responses to “This must be one of those “eye of the beholder” things.”

“It was the happiest moment of my young life. There is just something about blowing a load in a chick’s face that makes you feel like a man.”

I have no words for this woman hate. Everytime I hear a man utter such despicable opinions I pity all of womankind who ever has to communicate with such an emotionally-stunted piece of shit. His future partners and possible children (shudder) will probably have to suffer under his immense egomania for the rest of their lives.

I almost think that’s a phony quote, as I thought of some of the quotes in the Rubin article. But really, even if Spitznagel had to invent the quote, it isn’t as if there aren’t a bunch of dudes out there who think that way.

Nobody I know will understand why that commercial makes me so upset. They claim that there’s no way it’s intentionally alluding to vanilla sex because our country is soooo repreeeeesed. As though companies aren’t aware of every detail of what goes into their advertisements.

Er, I’d actually say companies are very often UNAWARE of what goes into their advertisements – and get nailed for it.

Dairy Queen – the “Moolatte” scandal.

Intel – upset over a print ad in which a half-dozen black men bent over like runners on their starting blocks managed (due to their placement between rows of desks) to invoke a slave ship. (It didn’t help that there was a white man appearing to be presiding over them all in the center of the ad.) The implication of “slaves”/”white overlord” was so obvious to all who viewed it that it’s incredible that it was ever printed. But if Intel had recognised that the ad was so unbelievably offensive, why would they have let it go to print?

MacDonald’s – the current upset over their “365 Black” and “My InspirAsian” websites.

And so on and so forth. That’s all that immediately comes to mind (and I know they’re all racism-related, because that’s what generally comes up in the forums I read), but I know there have been plenty of other cases where a company had an advertisement which actually seemed totally oblivious to its own implications, or the way people would perceive it.

Whether or not the creators of the ad in question are aware of its possible implications, I couldn’t say. But it’s a fact that ad execs can be really, really stupid and out of touch with popular opinion.

If this were true, it would explain why finding someone who is sexually (not to mention emotionally or intellectually) compatible has been so difficult… AND it would mean that I’d never have sex ever again.

Sex is about TWO healthy, mature people enjoying it… or, rather, it SHOULD be. RAPE is what it’s called when only 1 of them is having fun.

“The awkward truth, according to one study, is that 90 percent of 8-to-16-year-olds have viewed pornography online. Considering the standard climax to even the most vanilla hard-core scene today, that means there is an entire generation of young people who think sex ends with a money shot to the face.”

I’d say this is scarily accurate considering the things I’ve over-heard on the bus (I live really close to a high school and my bus stop is there) where teenage boys talk about their girlfriends orgasms as though they were cheap party tricks, how they got “this slut to do” XYZ etc etc.

““It’s hilarious how much these kids know,” Rogen says. “There’ll be arguments like ‘This is classified as gonzo, but I would say it’s more of a feature-BDSM. Also, they say this clip is taken from Handjobs #8, but this scene was actually first featured in Killer Grips #7.’”

Imagine what these little bastards could accomplish if they spent their time reading interesting and female positive literature, STUDYING or hm, maybe, getting a hobby? Call old fashioned, but I don’t think watching the abuse of women really counts. Unless you live in Ancient Rome. And even then, it’s still fucked up.

“How very, very sad. ”

Could not agree more.

“There are thirteen-year-old girls who idolize Jenna Jameson, 250 of 1000 adolescent females surveyed in Great Britain hope to one day become strippers, teenage girls come to porn sets already well versed in what’s expected of them, and so on ad nauseum.”

It really bothers me that thirteen year old CHILDEN are reading her biography/presumably watching her scenes. And if they’d actually read her biography properly, they’d realise that not even Ms. Jameson herself can sit through her own ‘scenes’ (graphic scenes of sexual abuse and exploitation) – if your role model doesn’t even want to be a role model, shouldn’t you be scratching your head a bit and maybe realise that this ISN’T a good thing?

God fucking damnit.

@ClassySpice

“If this were true, it would explain why finding someone who is sexually (not to mention emotionally or intellectually) compatible has been so difficult… AND it would mean that I’d never have sex ever again.”

Well, I suppose if you want to spend a lifetime being a complete and utter ghoul to women it’s quite an excellent skill.
Satan, my sarcasm on that nearly hurt *me*.

The scary thing is I’ve heard conversations like that so many times before. I’m sure we all have. In fact, when reading some Jensen the other day I noticed he’d written the same thing about the same porn scene in two (or three, I can’t remember) articles/whatever you want to call them. At first I just thought he was unimaginative and using the same concepts repeatedly, and then I realised that would probably be the porn industry, not what he was writing.

I was struck, and heart-broken, by the callousness of the attitudes in this article.
When he points out no-one dies of cancer coz of hard-core porn, I suppose he talking about men.

Women and girls are daily badly damaged by porn. It ripped at their bodies, often leaving permanent damage. Women who are continually beaten, tortured and raped, in order that idiots can get a hard-on – are left with mental trauma that may and usually does be a background noise for the rest of their lives.

I say this not from a place of distance, but as someone who was forced to perform violent sex and had it filmed.
That was when I was in the sex trade, there I saw and felt the damage of porn.

I knew women who died, women who could not take any more, so committed suicide.
Women who “accidentally” died as the violent sex “went too far”.

Christ, the porn industry does not give a damn about the damage that happens to women and girls for they are just disposable and easier to replace goods.

But, we must worry if the consumers might get cancer from too much violent sex.

The author of this bile wonder if a teenager will go blind masturbating over sexual torture he is viewing.
Sometimes I want to dream they do, if that made the market smaller.

I am likewise thankful that Ninedeuce speaks out about the porn industry. Thank you for candidly sharing a bit of your personal experience.

The influence of the sex industry on my family, my ex-husband and first marriage left me deeply wounded. I find that the message of this post and Nine Deuce’s blog in general offers me a voice of vindication. I hope that other women find the same here.

I am fairly new to this blog and actually was encouraged to read it by my boyfriend. We started scouring the internet looking for something, anything on positive female role models and all we ended up finding were women sporting that new brand of hooker feminism that seems to be so popular these days. I told my boyfriend about how a google search on positive female role models produced a list of Jane Austen characters and a nod toward Charlotte Bronte’s Jane Eyre. Which, in my opinion, is bullshit. I don’t particularly agree with the fact that a woman has to be plain faced and bookish to be a good role model and also if you read those books, they are pretty fucked up. I read the comment by rmott62 and just want to scream at people that this stuff actually does damage us. My story isn’t nearly as heartbreaking but I have certainly felt the sting of this industry. I’m 25, from an incredibly abusive family and divorced after 7 years because I thought getting married right out of high school was what a good Christian girl did. My mistake. My marriage was as much mentally destructive as my family life was physically so. Both my father and my ex had a real problem with porn. They both twisted my opinion of myself in some of the most damaging, irreversible ways and I still find that it is a daily struggle to just be myself. Pressure to dress like a fucking 50’s housewife came from the same mouth as the affirmation that a lot of couples go to strip clubs and if I disagreed I was the fucked up one. I am currently in the process of reclaiming myself. Porn reduces women to pieces of meat. We are no longer people. We are things to be acquired. Not to worry though, men aren’t looking for women anymore. Media trends show us that men really want a hairless barbie with giant breasts. She had better be a size two because, for whatever, reason men seem to want to fuck prepubescent boys with implants these days. The girls are painted to look younger and more plastic every day. And then there’s Jenna Jameson. She is not a woman. Her body doesn’t even look human. Men, if you can look at that woman naked and get an erection I am 99 percent sure you are gay, which is totally fine. Just stop wrecking so many girls on your way to figuring that out. In fact, men, I have something to say to you. Those of you that are into porn, are incredibly bad at sex. You don’t understand the act of sex because you have been using porn as a how-to guide.We don’t come 15 times just by you sticking your cock inside of us. In fact, we probably won’t come at all because you are terrified of vibrators. It is a common, male, misconception that women have a nasty smell. I have a question for you. Do you think that you balls smell like a spring garden? We don’t want anal sex. Not even a little, not even once. And if you shoot your cum into my face, I will separate that member from your body and turn it into a trifle. Now, I would also like to say that the guy I am with now just happens to be an anomaly. I accidentally found this boy who respects me and listens to me and loves me as a person, not just because I am a vessel for his cum. The night we met he jokingly said I was a woman, so my vote didn’t count. I kicked him in the chest and sent him flying across a room. My point is, we are both new in this foray into actual feminism and we realize that the main problem is that it has become a non issue. Women aren’t speaking up about sexist things anymore because the majority of them have been brainwashed into believing that shaking their tits for dollars is synonymous with empowerment. Phyllis Schlafly can filibuster all she wants about how women aren’t really abused but I lived that life. I’ve lived the life where gender and race and sexual orientation sit on this scale and the straight white male is never going to want. Social norms will be tailored so that he will always reap the benefits and the rest of us are going to take the shrapnel. Anyway….also Cosmo, please stop telling girls that masturbating 25 times a day is normal and healthy. I have so so so many better things to do and there isn’t enough gold bond in the world to deal with that.

I totes agree with 99% of what you said. Really. But I take offense to “Jenna Jameson isn’t a real woman”. Maybe to misogynists who whack one off to her she isn’t. Maybe to the common perception of how porn stars = pieces of meat she isn’t. But she is a real person to me, a “real woman” (lo, what a loaded phrase), and therefore I’m pissed off when men think it’s totes cool to treat her like shit and watch her get treated like shit for their jollies.

Not to harp too much on that, but the idea that women are a monolithic group that never like anal sex or cum from vaginal penetration alone is coming from the mouth of a place not really compatible with feminism. Hey, I’m about as anti-porn as you can get, but I recognize that some women’s sexuality isn’t exactly like mine. I’d be pretty fucking stupid not to get that point, being gay and very aware of the marginalization of my sexuality.

The point being that some women are porn stars. Some women cum from vaginal penetration alone. Some don’t. Some like consensual anal sex with a gentle partner that doesn’t demand it as their due. Some don’t. But all women are hurt by expectations of what Real Women are and are not, and all women are oppressed by cultural narratives that say we’re alternatively sluts or prudes or deviant or weird for liking/not liking something sexual. All women are hurt by a culture that equates women with sex object and men with sex subject.

I see that you get that. Just, try not to lose sight of it when discussing pornography.

Good points, but I think it’s also important that we not downplay the tremendous gap in reality between common porn tropes and women’s actual experiences, lest we give porn-sickened men, or the sexually uneducated, the impression that maybe porn doesn’t always tells lies about women and sex.

Some like consensual anal sex with a gentle partner that doesn’t demand it as their due.

50% of American women have tried anal sex, 9-10% have anal sex regularly.

If you ask men who enjoy anal stimulation, the majority prefer toys much smaller than the average dick, and they have the benefit of the prostate gland. The majority of gay men don’t even engage in anal sex because of the discomfort factor. So I’m seriously disinclined to believe that those women professing an interest in anal sex really and truly enjoy having an object 5″ in circumference and 6″ in length thrust up their backsides.

I’m aroused by the concept of anal sex, I have a plethora of toys for that part of the anatomy that I love dearly and couldn’t bear to part with, and even I have to laugh at the notion of any woman begging her partner for anal sex. Very, very rarely, a woman will experience g-spot orgasm this way–this is the only case in which I can concede that a woman may say “I like anal sex” and really mean it.

If most women knew how very risky anal sex is–the anus and rectum were not designed for sexual activity and much can go horribly wrong, even when practiced with a gentle, considerate partner–they wouldn’t even entertain the thought. This is an issue that needs to be taken much more seriously than it is, and not just because society is colluding to turn women into amateur porn stars.

Jenna Jameson’s body does not look like a human, woman’s body, that was all I meant. Perhaps it was poorly phrased. However, if you have seen this woman naked, (I had the chance to in “Zombie Strippers”. where Ms. Jameson engages in a vaginal shoot-out where ping pong and pool balls are both used as ammunition. Respectable lady, that Jameson gal.) she looks plastic and that is a testament to plastic surgery and our trend on what a female should look like. Also, I never claimed to be a feminist. Putting myself into a category like that seems silly and this is why. When you put yourself into a group, you automatically turn something into an “us vs. them” issue. It shouldn’t be that way. At the end of the day we are all people, even if we can be categorized conveniently into smaller subsets. I believe that women are people, so at the very most I’m people-ist. I don’t believe that you can talk about bringing people together while creating a group that seems exclusionary. Besides, Diablo Cody tells me that deciding to be a radical feminist is something she decided to do while standing in the check out line at the grocery store where she bought her organic apples. (Don’t believe me? It was in Bust magazine….a feminist magazine.) I think one of the big problems here is that the women involved in porn etc. seem to be absolved of personal responsibility and while I don’t believe that women are responsible for rape and idiotic things like that, these women, with some exceptions, are not being made to act like crazy people on reality shows or to take their clothes off for money. We’re all big people here. We can say, no. (Again I state: I REALIZE THAT SOME WOMEN ARE ACTUALLY FORCED INTO THESE DESPICABLE ACTS. I am not talking about that.) I have been to parties where girls take their clothes off just because guys ask them to. Or they drink too much and end up waking up in some random guys bed (both true stories). I have seen this ignorance. So, instead of treating them like victims, I would rather have some reason’s as to why it’s ok for Hannah Montana and Georgia May (Mick Jagger’s daughter) to be next to naked, on magazines eye level with the candy racks. In these cases, parents need to stop doubling as pimps. I refuse to treat every woman who dances on a stripper pole as if she’s a disenchanted, all American girl, that’s just hoping to get by. These women are perpetuating a stereo-type! All by themselves! Also, I do realize that other people’s sexuality is different from mine. I’m not stupid. Maybe I should have said “I don’t want anal sex”. I’m so sorry for offending. “So I don’t want anal sex. Not even a little, not even once.” There. Guess what, though. According to the exact article that sparked this little discussion, the men of the world DO happen think that we all want that, apparently. I was talking to them. And the sad truth is a majority of women don’t orgasm from vaginal penetration. The book “BONK” by Mary Roach, discusses the happenings of women removing their clitoris’ and stitching them closer to their vaginal openings, so that they could enjoy sex more. I don’t particularly believe that BDSM is misogyny because I enjoy rough sex but only with someone that respects me. Personally, I’m a trained fighter and so I think the fact that I don’t have to worry so much about getting into a nasty situation helps me feel secure. But that is just my opinion. As all of these things were. This may be the very reason I don’t post on discussion board. Sarcasm, inflection and humor rarely come off well in text. Also, I’m insecure about my punctuation and the phrase “totes cool” makes me want to drop kick puppies.

In the newest issue of “Bust”, Diablo Cody does in fact say (in passing) that she is a radical feminist. I don’t have the issue right in front of me so there is a very large possibility that I am talking out of my ass. In which case, I apologize. I’m also not blaming women for anything. I just believe that people in general need to take responsibility in cases where they actually do play into hands that are largely destructive. It is a shame that living in a capitalist society means that you can be compensated exorbitantly for the most degrading and asinine things.

I am a real person. Size less than 2 and surgery enhanced parts and all. Porn included. I am no less human than you are. I have feelings, just like you do. Though, I gotta say, people like you who will say that sort of thing about women like me make me wish to hell I wasn’t.

I have NEVER, ever thought that women ripping on other women because of the way they look is okay. It shouldn’t be okay. Yeah, parts of my outside might be fake, but jesus christ, does that mean that my insides deserve the dehumanization you just dished out? Do Jenna’s? What, meat or plastic?

I never said she was a terrible person because she was a size two. I don’t care what plastic parts you have. Women like you make me wish to hell I wasn’t a woman because you get so tangled up in semantics that you can’t have a conversation. The idea that women have to be a plastic thing to be women is the problem and the women playing into that and not speaking out against it are doing the world a disservice. Jenna Jameson is making herself a household name in the world of porn. That should be an oxymoron. I hate that I can’t have an opinion anymore because it’s not fucking PC to say that something is wrong or right or blue or green just because there may be a 2 percent chance that one person feels differently. I don’t like porn. I don’t like Jenna Jameson. I don’t like stupid people. I don’t like semantics. I’m not going to walk on egg shells about someone’s feelings when they make millions of dollars for letting guys cum on their faces. Just because there is a reward system for a certain set of actions doesn’t mean that the actions are justified or that the person acting should be absolved of personal responsibility simply because the end result or outcome can be construed as positive.

……Really? Did you just say that? I’m sort of at a loss here. I don’t expect for people to care about my feelings. Generally, when you live in the real world, you realize that most people only care about their own shit. I didn’t say the things I said to target one small specific set of people necessarily. I wasn’t trying to offend anyone here either. Maybe I came off in a way that was a bit abrasive. Can you give me many examples of things that aren’t that direct on this blog? I think, at this point, if you are still worried about feelings being hurt it’s going to be impossible to have any type of conversation. I was raised one of the most soft-hearted people and then I went through hell. So I may be coming from a completely different place than some of you. That’s ok by me. Sorry toes got trod upon.

Meghan- I think the point is feelings are all something we have. You get pissed that certain men expect women to look like X, but in your anger at that, you attack women who look like X- because you FEEL something about that. Women who do look like X also happen to feel, and your issue is more with demand for women to be a certain way than with the women who are that way, no? So why make the point of discussing the women, one even by name, if that is not the actual root of what is making you angry?

What RenEv said! The problem here is the assumption on the part of men that they are entitled to something, whether that’s anal sex or cumming on women’s faces or perhaps pressuring their (female) partner to have plastic surgery and look like a pornstar. If you don’t like it or don’t want to try it and you’ve expressed that clearly, your partner(s) should respect it. If they don’t, there’s your mark that they don’t see or respect you as a person, and you need to have some conversation or reevaluation of the relationship. The porn actors themselves are not the problem. Hating or patronizing them won’t change how men see *you*; after all, porn is, like all media, a reflection of greater society.

I’m not concerned with making men see me any particular way. Isn’t that what sort of started this whole misogyny thing in the first place? Apparently, nothing that I wrote was read in as light a voice as it was meant. I WAS saying that one of the problems WAS that men shouldn’t expect anything specific but instead ask for things when a relationship is developed. But, you are still removing the personal responsibility from the equation here. If porn is a “reflection of greater society” then we’re all in trouble. Have any of you ever looked at porn? The only reality base it has, is that there are people in it. Porn is a reflection of fantasy that cannot be achieved (in most cases). Everything that has been said so far is that women in porn are not accountable for their actions. Why? Because they aren’t being held to the same standard as the men that get into porn for free? Why is it not ok to say that these women are also doing wrong? But then I guess no one here “hates or patronizes” anyone else…oh except the “hating and patronizing” of men. To be an equal human being, you have to be accountable for you actions. It’s as simple as that.

“I’m not concerned with making men see me any particular way. Isn’t that what sort of started this whole misogyny thing in the first place?”

…Except by “pornstars aren’t people,” what you really mean is “they’re ruining it for me!” You mean that you believe they’re setting feminism back. The point of feminism is for women to be accepted as autonomous human beings with all the rights and responsibilities therein, so yes, you are concerned with how men (and women and all others) see you. They’re the fabric of society, see?

“Apparently, nothing that I wrote was read in as light a voice as it was meant.”

Shockingly, tone does not translate well into print. I don’t really know how you meant what you wrote, but saying that Jenna Jameson or any other pornstars are not real people means you believe they aren’t deserving of basic rights and kindness. They are.

I have looked at porn. I will probably look at it again, as there are many varieties for many tastes (though my particular tastes are hardly a market right now). While mainstream porn is often very brutal and misogynist, not all pornography is.

“Everything that has been said so far is that women in porn are not accountable for their actions.”

Not sure where you’re getting this. Two points. One, here’s what you originally typed re: Jenna Jameson: “And then there’s Jenna Jameson. She is not a woman. Her body doesn’t even look human.” There’s nothing in there about accountability, just about hating and patronizing a woman for her choices. Two, when did anyone say pornstars aren’t accountable for their actions? As long as they’re consenting, compensated (or not, I guess) adults, who cares? They’re accountable for what they do, but they’re not accountable to you, me or anyone other than themselves. They have to look at themselves in the mirror every night. If they like what they see, that’s no business of ours.

So, again, this is not about the evil women of porn. We should be working toward a world where they can do what they want and are not representative of women-at-large. And, again, this goes back to men accepting that they’re not entitled to anything from their partners and women understanding that they don’t have to do something they’re not into.

ND: That’s okay. I can live with that. Curious though, and you don’t have to answer if you don’t want…but do you have similar feelings about other things that contribute (to some people anyway) to the objectification of women/unhealthy body image for women, ect. …in the sense that doing those things is wrong? Like being a model, or the women who run “pro-ana” sites, or are into steampunk Lolita, so on?

I mean, I think we might agree on one thing, and that would be that the media in general, from pop-diva’s to leading women on television to celebrated female athletes to yep, porn, sends out a message that is not healthy wrt to female body image and what women are supposed to look like, and often a lot of their appeal to the masses is sex appeal, but is it wrong for them to be doing what they do?

And I will also say without reservation that porn is crap sex ed and no model for how to build a romantic human relationship, and not even I like the idea of anyone using it as such. People, men, women, boys, girls, should not be looking to porn for sex education…and I think its pretty damn horrible that we live in a time and place where unfortunately, that seems to be it.

In most cases, yes. I don’t know that I’d condemn models, but I would condemn the designers who decide to only present one body type and to make it an ideal for people for whom it isn’t attainable (almost everyone). I definitely don’t think pro-ana websites are cool.

“They’re accountable for what they do, but they’re not accountable to you, me or anyone other than themselves. They have to look at themselves in the mirror every night. If they like what they see, that’s no business of ours.”

Um…doesn’t that directly contradict:

“And, again, this goes back to men accepting that they’re not entitled to anything from their partners and women understanding that they don’t have to do something they’re not into.”

at least the way I’m reading it?

I happen to agree with you on both points though. People have got to be able to account for their own actions, not have society do it for them, but on the other hand, people have got to be held accountable for their own actions, nor left to do as they please.

Porn does not simply “reflect” the wider culture. The whole point of the article is that porn itself is changing the way people think, the culture, in pretty horrifying ways.

Men are feeling entitled to “facials” and anal and so forth directly because of porn. So yeah, those who are peddling porn are somewhat responsible, not for rape culture on the whole but for a large chunk of it.

Given that there is no physical reason for women to like anal sex, the only reason a woman would want to do it is to please a man. No radical feminist would want anal sex because it is equivalent with BDSM – its purpose is to dominate and harm.

Actually, the anus is an incredibly sensitive and, for many people, erogenous zone. There are many nerve endings there are lots of people of all genders and political affiliations who like the way anal play feels. In addition, the muscles of the vagina and the muscles of the anus all contract in (more or less) unison during orgasm and many women report that anal stimulation can intensify the sensations of orgasm. Simply put, there are plenty of reasons that some people enjoy anal play. Of course, there are also lots of people who dislike it or have experienced injury or trauma and choose to not do it. I think it’s also worth noting that anal sex is a much larger category of sexual behaviors than anal intercourse and many people enjoy lots of things without any kind of penetration.

I’m quite sure that there are plenty of radical feminists who enjoy anal stimulation, whether solo or with a partner of whatever gender. Radical feminism doesn’t define where your nerve endings are or what kinds of sensation one likes. It can and does inform what decisions one makes about what one does. So I’m also quite sure that there are radical feminists who might enjoy anal play and choose not to do it because of the associations it has for them.

When you say that “[n]o radical feminist would want anal sex…”, you’re setting yourself up to police other people’s sexual behaviors by announcing that they don’t get to choose them and be part of the group. If the decision to engage in a particular sexual act is based on the authentic health, pleasure and well-being of everyone involved, I don’t see why you feel the need to cast those folks out of the group.

Do you have so many allies and like-minded friends that you’re willing to reject some simply because they happen to experience sex differently than you?

No, you’re just proving my point that it is men who say this crap about women’s bodies, not women (or at least not radical feminist women who don’t equate pleasure with pleasing a man), but if you like we can go through your three reasons and debunk them all.

Health – I won’t repeat what people said above but anal “play” is extremely dangerous to the health of both parties.

Pleasure – It is not an “erogenous” zone. Like I said, women do not have anything up there that can cause pleasure. I have no doubt that some women claim that they do like it but I am sure they are exactly the same ones that claim to like anything that men do because they have bought into the patriarchy which tells women that they are worthless except for sexual purposes. Any radical feminist would not by into such a disgusting view and so have no need to perpetuate the lie that it is a good thing. You, on the other hand, get to degrade women if you continue with the lie, something you obviously like as any good misogynist does given your website.

Well-being: There is only one reason a man would want to engage in anal “play” with a woman and that is to objectify and humiliate her. That it hardly for the well-being of both parties.

Like I said, women do not have anything up there that can cause pleasure. I have no doubt that some women claim that they do like it but I am sure they are exactly the same ones that claim to like anything that men do because they have bought into the patriarchy which tells women that they are worthless except for sexual purposes.

So you are claiming that you know the bodies of these women better than they do. You are claiming that your awareness of their erogenous areas is superior to theirs.

Well-being: There is only one reason a man would want to engage in anal “play” with a woman and that is to objectify and humiliate her. That it hardly for the well-being of both parties.

If it is all about humiliation & subjugation of women to men then how come there are lesbians who enjoy it?

“Like I said, women do not have anything up there that can cause pleasure. ”

I don’t personally have much of an opinion one way or another here, but this is utterly false.

Its true that women don’t have a prostate there like a guy does, but i don’t have a prostate in my shoulders either, but by god i can enjoy stimulation there.

“There is only one reason a man would want to engage in anal “play” with a woman and that is to objectify and humiliate her. ”

is also a blatantly false statement.

along with
“I have no doubt that some women claim that they do like it but I am sure they are exactly the same ones that claim to like anything that men do”

Where exactly is this confidence coming from? You’ve now stated that the only reason a guy would have anal sex with a woman is to objectify and humiliate her, and stated you are certain any woman that claims to enjoy it and chooses to do it because of that is either lying or misguided.

That’s twice you’ve dictated what other people are thinking or doing. Both times stating that something is simply impossible, but without actually giving any reason for it.
Instead you’ve defined them as impossibilities, based only on circular logic provided by Dogmatic thought. It’s a pre-decided outcome.

This is not only insulting to both men and women, but also utterly crippling to anything resembling intellectual debate.

It provides a blanket escape to disregard any point made that could damage the core foundation. As a result, it holds no more worth than the argument that God exists because the bible says so, and the bible must be right, because god wrote it.

Or, the argument that radical feminists are merely bitter because they can’t get a man.

You can’t argue against a blanket dismissal. And anything that can’t be argued against, cant be tested, is worthless.

It can be tested – learn biology and you’ll soon figure out that there is absolutely no physical reason for women to enjoy anal sex. The only reason they could possibly enjoy it then, is psychological due to low self-esteem, self-hatred and wanting to please a man.

You have a vested interest in claiming that men do not use anal sex for degradation. I would bet on it that was this any other forum that you, along with all the other men defending it, would be talking about how great it is because how disgusting and degraded it makes women.

But, again, I’d imagine you’d be unwilling to accept that loss either. You have a predetermined truth, and you have a blanket dismissal set up to nullify anything that could undermine it.

You have now had multiple women tell you they can enjoy the sensation of anal sex. There are nerves there. If it can feel, it can be pleasurable. Human beings are capable of feeling pleasure all over their bodies, regardless of wether any reproduction organs are involved. In the case of anal sex, the proximity to said reproductive organs means there is a greater chance it can be pleasurable than there would be elsewhere on the body.

But you have constantly ignored this. Constantly stated that these women MUST by lying to you, or lying to themselves, because you have pre-decided that it must be so.

Massages, stroking the neck, stroking the cheek, rubbing the shoulders.

Would you tell a woman or a man that its biologically impossible for them to enjoy those acts because there’s no reproductive organs present?

Contrary to what you appear to believe, Humans are not slaves to their sex organs. That is rather the point of these discussions in the first place, no? We have the capability to use emotions to define what and where we derive pleasure from.

Arguing that it is impossible to feel pleasure without the sex organs being involved is akin to arguing that it is impossible to NOT feel pleasure when they are involved. Neither of those things are even remotely true. And they are more than anti feminist sentiments, they’re anti human.

Learn biology and you will see you are wrong. Nerve clusters! Women have those!

Why is it so important for you to be 100% right for ALL WOMEN on this? I mean for real, you sure do seem to have a huge amount of…I don’t know, pride, smugness, something riding on proving you are right and all those women who disagree with you are wrong.

Bec, you and “any radical feminist” get to decide what “women” find physically pleasing and what they wouldn’t? And if they disagree with you suddenly it is because they only do those things to please men? Hold up, how is that anything but staking claim on a universal for the whole of women and authoritarian?

Is anal play riskier than other sexual activities? Well yeah, it certainly can be (and I say riskier, because face it, these days ALL sexual activity carries a risk). There are also ways to make it as safe as possible (same goes for many sexual activities). And, sigh, for the record, there are plenty of men who enjoy being on the receiving end of anal play and plenty of women who like for them to be there.

Is anal everybodies cup of tea? Certainly not! In fact, I am willing to bet that more people dislike it than like it…however, there are those that do, and no, it is not always about pleasing a man. I think it is important in these kinds of discussions not to assume any one woman or any group of women have the low down absolute shiny line of truth for all women or to suggest they know the minds other women better than those women know themselves. Such things are…patronizing.

What I think would be grand would be if, oh say the subject of anal was raised, if one woman said “fuck no you are out of your mind” and another woman said “sure, I dig that” that both of those responses would be seen as iron-clad truths for those particular women and respected- by all- as such.

It doesn’t take a genius on human anatomy to figure out that women have nothing up their butts that would cause pleasure. The only possible pleasure to be gained is that of pleasing a man which is a misogynistic pleasure in the first place. Pleasing a man is the one and only reason that a woman would want anal sex and a man’s pleasure is just not a good enough reason.

I’m bisexual, do I count too? Well, as for me, I’m here, posting.
You’re going to take guess? Well, what can I say: as long as we are assuming that your confidence and knowledge there is not better than mine, the guess is wrong. No, a lot of bisexuals and lesbians enjoy stimulation up there.
Biological reasons, if any, would be the closeness to the vagina and the overall sensivity of the area down there. Is there a biological reason for the labias to be sexually sensitive? Because, at least to some, they nonethless are.

“Pleasing a man is the one and only reason that a woman would want anal sex and a man’s pleasure is just not a good enough reason.”

So when I have engaged in anal sex with other women without a man present – or even aware of our sexual encounters in any capacity – I was doing it to please a man?

The argument that women can not enjoy anal sex without wanting to please a man just doesn’t hold water. At all. I’ve even been known to engage in anal stimulation while masturbating. Alone. In my room. With no one else involved.

“…but I am sure they are exactly the same ones that claim to like anything that men do because they have bought into the patriarchy which tells women that they are worthless except for sexual purposes.”

Guess what else? I don’t believe I’m worthless except for sex. I’m an intelligent, educated, willful, strong, self aware, and proud woman, able to make choices based on what I want.

Do I like everything a man (or woman) could do to me sexually? No, I’d never claim something so ridiculous. Would I consider doing something someone else wanted if I didn’t? Fuck no. Not a chance. Would I feel bad, or somehow worthless or less a woman, for saying no? Please. Don’t make me laugh.

You stated that if a woman claims to like anal sex, then it’s only because she’s too indoctrinated by the patriarchy to realize she’s worth more. The suggestion that I cannot be one (intelligent, self aware, and in control of my own body and choices) if I am the other (someone who enjoys anal sex) is, quite frankly, incredibly insulting.

How is you telling me what I should and should not like any different from the patriarchy telling me the same?

I’m worthless if I don’t like anal sex. I’m weak and brainwashed if I can’t see that I shouldn’t. Thank you so much for degrading my choices down to these two binary extremes.

“Guess what else? I don’t believe I’m worthless except for sex. I’m an intelligent, educated, willful, strong, self aware, and proud woman, able to make choices based on what I want.”

Yea, arguing that women only like anal sex to please the men or because they think they must be a sex object is a bit much. I agree that many to possibly most men use anal sex as a means of degradation and humiliation. I do not agree that all of them do, nor do I agree that an interest in anal sex is automatically an indication of a lack of self-worth on behalf of a woman. Done correctly, anal sex can be quite pleasurable. It’s just difficult to find a man who has any idea how to go about doing it in a fashion that is not damaging.

I’m willing to believe that consensual anal sex harmful as much as I’m willing to believe that male circumcision will stop the spread of HIV. that is to say, I remain unconvinced.

insofar as the safest sex is no sex at all, I think one can probably take steps to minimize the possible damage done while having anal sex.

I mean, if what some of y’all are saying is true, I should have dropped dead long ago. but somehow I’m still alive, despite twenty-some-odd years of fully consensual sodomy.

what I gotta know is this though: how do these discussions invariably end in this weird anal sex debate? (I stayed out of this one because the minute I show up on threads like this, it’s all all “anal EW” vs “anal AWESOME”…I used to think it was all my fault.)

I did not learn about the anal option from pornography – far from it. I happened to read Still Life With Woodpecker in, I think, ninth grade or tenth grade. I think it’s discussed in detail on page 102, if I’m not mistaken. and, whether or not you consider Tom Robbins particularly literary, the book was in the Lit section, not “erotica”. The other book where I found anal sex mentioned was a work of more-or-less-regular-fiction called Kinflicks by a woman named Lisa Alther. It was a book about women in the 1960s, more or less. just, you know, general fiction.

it piqued my interest.

but then I had a devil of a time getting partners to engage it in with me! according to conventional wisdom, I should have had a line around the block of willing participants, right?

Of course it piqued your interest – if you were a teenager, and teenagers a notorious for being interested in anything as long as it involves any kind of sex. Being indoctrinated at a young age to believe it is pleasurable(just like the porn article in the original post) only shows what a massive influence the patriarchy has on women’s sexuality and how feminists need to learn to question desire more.

No one said that anal sex is completely 100% safe. But you know what? No sex is 100% completely safe. Even loving, egalitarian lesbian sex is not 100% safe. Anytime you engage in any type of sex you take some risk or another.

However, done properly with a considerate partner who knows what they are doing and has no desire to harm you, the risks from anal sex are minimal.

If -you- find anal sex unappealing, that’s 300% acceptable. If you do not wish to engage in anal sex you are well within your right to tell any man who suggests the act to you that he can go fuck himself up his own ass. I’ll gladly stand right beside you and tell him off right along with you, if you like.

But I will not remain quiet about the fact that under certain circumstances I do find anal sex enjoyable. Some of the best orgasms I’ve ever had involved anal stimulation. ’tis true, like it or not.

“It’s just difficult to find a man who has any idea how to go about doing it in a fashion that is not damaging.”

“I agree that many to possibly most men use anal sex as a means of degradation and humiliation.”

The implication of those two sentences is that (most) men don’t care about being careful or considerate during anal play because they’re out to humiliate and degrade their partner.

So… what about gay men? What about pegging? Are those also about humiliation and degradation? I’m not saying there aren’t men (and women) who use anal play as a form of humiliation. Of course there are. People are dicks and there will always be assholes, regardless of gender. But I think it’s unfair to dismiss almost an entire half of the species because of those people. Especially based on something so arbitrary as ‘you’re a man.’ (Or ‘you’re a women.’) Remember, these blanket dismissals based upon genitalia are what we’re fighting AGAINST here, though with an obvious focus on women.

“The implication of those two sentences is that (most) men don’t care about being careful or considerate during anal play because they’re out to humiliate and degrade their partner.”

Anja,

I’m not going to discuss gay men because I don’t feel qualified to discuss gay men, nor do I feel that as a bisexual women that it is my place to discuss gay men.

My statement was in regards to hetero. men, which given that the discussion was focused on anal sex with women I thought was obvious.

And, yes, I feel quite firmly that most hetero. men don’t give a damn about whether or not they cause harm to a woman by engaging in anal sex. I also absolutely believe that the majority of them use it as a means of domination, degradation, humiliation, abuse, and/or control.

Not all of them. But you aren’t going to change my mind that the majority of them have negative intentions when it comes to anal sex. Hell, you aren’t going to change my mind that the majority of them have some sort of negative intention when it comes to sex period.

I’ve had sex with a lot of men. I’ve yet to find a single one that did not use sex in some sexist fashion or another. Not one single goddamn one.

“And, yes, I feel quite firmly that most hetero. men don’t give a damn about whether or not they cause harm to a woman by engaging in anal sex. I also absolutely believe that the majority of them use it as a means of domination, degradation, humiliation, abuse, and/or control.”

This is the experience of a hell of a lot of women, myself included. Look people, if you enjoy anal sex, good for you, but there’s no getting away from this huge problem in men’s attitudes towards women. Anal sex is frequently used to harm and humiliate, it is often used as torture and can cause extremely serious physical and mental harm -and this *must* be considered as part of feminist dialogue against violence against women. That requires taking women seriously and allowing them to say ‘this is what I have experienced’, ‘this is what was done to me’. It’s a lot harder to admit abuse than it is to ‘admit’ enjoyment, believe me. I know of many women (myself included x 1000000000) who have said ‘I enjoy that’ about various degrading sex acts because it is easier than admitting the gross humiliation and insult to one’s integrity one has suffered, especially the feeling of having ‘given in’. (Am NOT accusing anyone here of reacting in that way when they say they like anal sex, so don’t jump on me, unless it’s to give me a nice hug).

I guess I’m saying that I think we should all back off of Becstar for a second, and allow her (whether we agree with her or nor) to express anger on this matter. It does seem like a matter of numerous people against one, purely because of hurt feelings. The torture and sexual abuse of women is the big picture, not what Becstar or anyone else thinks of your sex life. After all, it aint none of our business.

The torture and sexual abuse of women is the big picture, not what Becstar or anyone else thinks of your sex life. After all, it aint none of our business.

Becstar rather made it other people’s business by establishing a normative that all anal sex was to humiliate women. You seem to be trying to argue that her intolerance is ok, on the grounds of tolerance.

“Hell, you aren’t going to change my mind that the majority of them have some sort of negative intention when it comes to sex period.”

This is probably true. It is also true of course, that in any given group of people, fully one half are below the average intelligence of the group. The majority therefore, by mathematical necessity, is of below or just marginally above average intelligence.

There is an incredible danger in relying on majority trends to cement opinions and ideas.

Hell, the focus on a majority as the most important thing is precisely what causes minorities to be so downtrodden in the first place.

For instance, the overwhelming majority of American women (or plan to) have children. Approximately 80% of women of the age of 45 or so have children.

Personally (and its possible you might feel different) I don’t feel that statistic makes it even remotely OK to assume the women I meet want children.

Or that its OK to apply a blanket generalization that states that Issues about Child Birth are inherently linked to issues about women.

“I’ve had sex with a lot of men. I’ve yet to find a single one that did not use sex in some sexist fashion or another. Not one single goddamn one.”

That’s really sad to me actually. And I’m sorry for it. But experience does not make a rule. Or even a good basis for generalization.

If it did then, according to my experience women are significantly more likely to molest other women. (Or girls, to be more precise, as this was all when kids were just being kids.) No boy or man has ever even come close to making me feel as ashamed and frightened in a sexual situation as those girls. (You’ll forgive me if I’m not willing to expand on details, I don’t exactly consider this a friendly or appropriate forum for such.)

As a bisexual woman, how would you feel if I said that I believe most women who wish to engage in sex with other women only do so in order to humiliate them (possibly gaining a false sense of patriarchal entitlement by doing so), and others only because of a suppressed sense of worthlessness and fear that makes them go along with it and possibly even believe they enjoy it. Which, based on my own experiences, and the experiences of other women I’ve spoken to or read about who had similar experiences, is not exactly a theoretical stretch.

For the record, no, I don’t believe that. One of my closest friends is a lesbian, and I’m as vocal about gay rights as I am any other human rights. I’m not willing to generalize either gender based on my experiences with them. Those who molested me are no more every woman than I am, or you are, or Jenna Jameson is. And the men who are chauvinistic or misogynistic or use sex with sexist intent are no more every man.

Given there is no biological reason for women to like anal sex you obviously get something else out of it. Pleasing a man, low self-esteem, internalised self-hatred, internalised ideas about what you think you are “suppposed” to do. I guarantee if you were actually wiling to question your desire for two second it wouldn’t come out as sparkling as you would hope.

Becstar, having seen your comments elsewhere (on BDSM, was it?), it seems like you come back to the same point pretty regularly – “there must be something WRONG with you because you like A, B, or C.”

It’s an ingenuous argument in as far as most human beings have something “wrong” with them, and most likes and dislikes stem from complicated, often overlapping reasons. Of course, it’s also pretty simplistic and condescending and, I would argue, ultimately anti-feminist.

I am not claiming that people don’t feel those desires. I’m not stupid enough to believe that the patriarchy has absolutely no influence on women’s desires. I am claiming that there when there is no physical reason behind it and when it is used solely to degrade and objectify and is based on society’s indoctrination that people need to start questioning their desire and working to change it. Instead people walk around in a bubble refusing to question anything that has to do with sexuality which just allows men to continue to degrade and objectify women sexually. Buying into the patriarchy’s view of sexuality is not empowerment or enlightenment, its slavery.

Becstar, as I said in my previous comment to you, it’s not a question of whether someone HAS a specific desire, but the complicated reasons for said desire in the first place. If we accept the whole “radical” notion of women as human beings, we’re going to have to accept the fact that we are not robots who are simply programmed to be a certain way by the patriarchal overlords’ central command unit.

For example, I could draw a number of equally simplistic conclusions about why you argue with people on the internet about “working to change” their desires. But that would be just as condescending as what you’re doing here.

You’re a human being with your own personality and history. I would only ask you to let go of the pleasure of talking down to your supposedly less enlightened sisters, and realize that they are human beings too. Allow them their dignity.

Are you willfully ignoring the whole cluster of nerves that exist there? There’s no reason, either, that someone running their fingers lightly over that space just behind my ears should make my knees weak and my skin tingle and to arouse me tremendously except, oh wait, nerves are there. Oh my! Could it be possible for a women to get pleasure from a zone other than her clitoris or vagina? Say it ain’t so!

It’s a pity, actually, that you couched this within the context of anal sex because you seem completely incapable of addressing anything other than your understanding of female anatomy and how it ‘should’ work according to you. Nonetheless, I’ll try again:

You’re ignoring the primary point of my last response. You insist that there must be something wrong with me; that I must so weak and controlled by the society I live in that I’m unwilling to examine my own obvious self loathing and instead embrace what the patriarchy tells me I should enjoy.

Once again I say, tell me how you telling me that there is something wrong with me, that I am so weak and sick in spirit that I cannot possibly have examined my own choices carefully, is in any way different from a patriarchy telling me that something is wrong with me if I don’t embrace their dogmatic beliefs.

By refusing to acknowledge that there are strong women who like something that you think is anti-feminist you are, in fact, HURTING women. You are, in essence, claiming that women who disagree with you are too weak willed and easily lead too see things the ‘right’ way. Well guess what? That’s exactly the argument that the patriarchy used to say we shouldn’t be allowed to make our own choices. And that, at it’s core, is anti-feminist.

You cannot make such a blanket dismissal without insulting and degrading the women you dismiss because of it.

becstar – you are also assuming that examination hasn’t already occurred.

you don’t think we possibly could have spent years and years examining ourselves ’til our heads came out our navels, and still came up with the same conclusion?

alternately, say I finally “get it” (after more than twenty years of living in blissful ignorance, slave to the patriarchy blah blah blah) – anal sex is just wrong and I’m not going to do it anymore. hallelujah I’ve come to jeebus yay. so – I say to my partner “hey, honey, you know that thing you do that I love? that thing I beg you to do because it feels so good? that thing? yeah, don’t do that anymore. even if I want you to, don’t. why? well, some lady on the internet told me it’s not good for women to do that…”

Oh FFS…get off the soap box Bec. These are adult women, some of them VERY feminist…and they still like anal. You are all about the biology, right? Well, it so happens that the anus has nerve ending clusters, a decent concentration of them even, which means that area being touched…like much of the surface of human skin, can feel really, really nice. Stimulation to that area can feel really, really nice. Now, why don’t you stop telling all the other grown up women in the theoretical room that they just have not examined as deeply as YOU have and perhaps examine WHY you care so much about whether or not other women like anal? As was said above, a woman enjoying anal stimulation, alone, by herself, with no men around? Hummm, she is probably doing it because it feels good, and no amount OMG you are DOING IT WRONG is going to change that.

Becstar, I think there are several problems with your whole biology-is-destiny argument. First of all, it puts you squarely in the company of homophobes, and (more to the point?) misogynists, who routinely assign social meaning to biology: “women are short, so they shouldn’t be allowed to inherit…”

But secondly, it’s a naturalist argument, and it’s a silly one. I grew up on a farm, and I can assure you that anal sex is pretty widespread in the animal world. I don’t think anyone is indoctrinating giraffes or bonobos.

The usual response (because hey, we have done all this before with homophobes) is that humans aren’t animals, that we should have a “higher” standard of behavior. Fine. But this wipes out the argument that anal sex isn’t “natural” or “biological.”

So let’s turn the question around: what type of sex act, specifically, would you say is biologically justified for women to engage it? Kissing? Backrubs? Lesbian cunnilingus? Heterosexual vaginal intercourse with a condom? Do you see where we’re going here?

I imagine I’m not much of a better choice than James in your eyes, Laurelin, but I thought I’d give it a shot anyway.

see, as usual, no one’s arguing that hurting women is bad, mkay?

and I don’t see anyone claiming that it’s not acceptable for Becstar (or anyone) to be righteously angry at harm done to her own person or womankind as a whole.

when someone is saying to me “you don’t really like that thing you like, and if you do like it, you should think about it until you don’t like it anymore,” I don’t hear anger behind that. I hear judgment and condemnation.

but I don’t think anyone’s claiming that she doesn’t have a right to be angry at people who have harmed her.

No-one is outright claiming anything, but a lot of people seem to be more concerned about the perceived slight against their sex lives rather than the real issues here. As far as I’m concerned, it’s a matter of priorities. let us go back to those. Please.

“Hell, the focus on a majority as the most important thing is precisely what causes minorities to be so downtrodden in the first place.”

When the majority is causing very real and often very permanent harm, I absolutely am going to focus on the majority. What else would you have feminists do, Adam? Go, “oh, well some dude’s aren’t that bad. I guess that means we should just focus on them and not worry about the ones who are torturing, raping, abusing, enslaving, and killing women and children.”

I mean, serious, what do you expect me to say in response to that comment?

“Go, “oh, well some dude’s aren’t that bad. I guess that means we should just focus on them and not worry about the ones who are torturing, raping, abusing, enslaving, and killing women and children.””

OF course not.

Nor, of course was that remotely what i suggested.

Nor, for that matter, are the majority of men torturing, raping, abusing, enslaving or killing women or children.

“What else would you have feminists do, Adam? ”

Identify, approach, dissect and destroy the specific instances, the specific foundations, the specific horrors, as apposed to creating a blanket, undefinable, undefeatable extrapolated haze to label as “the problem”

In the history of humanity, creating a faceless approximation of the “enemy” has NEVER worked. It has, without exception, always done more harm than good.

Didn’t work for the war on “crime”, didn’t work for the war on “drugs”, won’t work for the war on “terror”, and won’t work for the war on “men”

Its a HELL of a lot harder to actually identify and approach the specific issues, you’ll get no argument there.

I would just like to point out that the ‘wars’ on ‘crime, terror and drugs’ are all ‘wars’ begun by (predominantly) male governments against acts perpetrated by (predominantly) male groups. There is no ‘war on men’, and feminist struggle is NOT comparable to the acts of the male elite. Feminists do not have the power that the groups running the various ‘wars’ have. There is, however, an undeclared war on women going on.

I suggest you read up on history, particularly women’s history, and the history of the feminist movement. That way you’ll stop making yourself look foolish. and don’t worry! Laurelin’s unsolicited advice is always free!

I have no desire to wage war on “men”. I have a desire to wage war on sexism, male violence, and the general oppression of women. I haven’t got a clue why so many people systematically refuse to see the difference.

No-one is outright claiming anything, but a lot of people seem to be more concerned about the perceived slight against their sex lives rather than the real issues here. As far as I’m concerned, it’s a matter of priorities. let us go back to those. Please.

a) I’d say that “there’s something wrong with you/damaged about you” is more than a perceived slight.

but the important thing is

b) the real issues of sexually based torture and harm to women AND the idea that “women (meaning all womankind, or Class Woman if you like) don’t like/don’t want name-your-sexual activity” are two sides of the same misogynistic coin, especially when one adds the idea that there’s something wrong or damaged about women who do like/want this sexual activity.

which is why the right to feel authentic pleasure (clitoral, anal, vaginal, mental) is ALSO a priority among many priorities in feminism.

One can be anti-rape and anti-torture (and be sympathetic to survivors, and work for justice worldwide) and still be quite happily pro-consensual-sex-acts-of-all-sorts. that is not a morally dissonant position to take.

“That’s really sad to me actually. And I’m sorry for it. But experience does not make a rule. Or even a good basis for generalization.”

I’m not just basing my stance on my own experience. I’m also basing my stance on the experience of countless other women.

“No boy or man has ever even come close to making me feel as ashamed and frightened in a sexual situation as those girls.”

I’m sorry that has been your experience. On the whole, however, it is a relatively rare one. Yes, women can be sexually abusive. No, women are not more likely than men to be sexually abusive.

“As a bisexual woman, how would you feel if I said that I believe most women who wish to engage in sex with other women only do so in order to humiliate them”

I’d say you’re likely mistaken. Just as I would if you said the same thing about hetero. men. Just as I already have said the same thing about hetero. men, just in case you somehow missed that part. I’m not the one using words like “all” and “only” here. I’m pretty sure that Becstar is the one doing that…so I haven’t got a clue why you keep trying to lecture me about blanket generalizations about men or otherwise.

If you’re so interested in feminism, and you find my story, oh, so sad, do you not think that your time might be better spent going after the men who lead me and countless other women to feel as I do instead of spending your time trying to convince us that we’re wrong?

“If you’re so interested in feminism, and you find my story, oh, so sad, do you not think that your time might be better spent going after the men who lead me and countless other women to feel as I do instead of spending your time trying to convince us that we’re wrong?”

There’s a bit of a logical misfiring occurring here isn’t there?

If she’s trying to convince you that you’re wrong, which would therefore mean she thinks you are wrong, then it would be reasonable to suggest that she doesn’t think the men you talk about are as big a problem as you do, and she wouldn’t think it productive to go after them.

Actually you’re using ‘most’ and ‘majority’ which, whilst not words used in blanket dismissals, are words used in blanket generalizations.

And I did use the word ‘only’ in my example. Look at that, I made a mistake. (I need to proof read a little more carefully.)

It’s entirely possible that you are saying ‘most men…’ and ‘the majority of men…’ in the same way I occasionally feel the need to verbally exclaim “People are stupid!” By which I certainly don’t mean that all, or even most, people are stupid, but that I am so frustrated by whomever promoted the need to say that, that it comes out as a generalization. In which case, my sincere apologies. But I’d also advise you to consider altering your terminology in that case.

But if you actually do mean ‘most’, do mean ‘the majority’, when you use those words, then I’m sorry, but yes, I’m going to keep trying. I’m going to keep talking. Because what I honestly want to do is encourage a society (or at this point the encourage thought that will, hopefully, eventually lead to such a society) where we approach all individuals as individuals – regardless of gender, color, sexual preference, race, creed, whatever – and don’t make generalizations about anyone, for any reason. I honestly believe that as people, and as a society, we need to actively move towards that change in attitude in order to effectively combat a myriad of other social ills; Misogyny, misanthropy, misandry all counted amongst them.

Totally, ridiculously naive, right? Trust me, I know. I need to go sit for a while in my ideological happy place where we all love and embrace each other as human beings. Because the Real World just isn’t getting there.

As an interesting side note, the spell-check for these comments thinks misandry isn’t a word, that’s it’s a misspelling of misanthropy.

“Actually you’re using ‘most’ and ‘majority’ which, whilst not words used in blanket dismissals, are words used in blanket generalizations.”

Anja,

Instead of responding again, I’m just going to direct you to this comment of mine that was already directed towards you:

If you’re so interested in feminism, and you find my story, oh, so sad, do you not think that your time might be better spent going after the men who lead me and countless other women to feel as I do instead of spending your time trying to convince us that we’re wrong?

I do believe I have reached a point here where I’ve said what I can, am tired of repeating myself, and am no longer interested in discussing the topic with someone so evidently invested in their own particular brand of generalization that they are incapable of responding without being defensive, dismissive and repetitive.

Incidentally, I am a feminist, and I do think that was a severe case of ‘logical misfiring’.

Holy Flying Spaghetti Monster, you also think that child porn is perfectly acceptable! Apparently everything is acceptable as long as it pleases a white male with absolutely no thought to the damage it causes. Congratulations, you win Biggest Misogynistic Hypocrite of the Year award.

That “charlie” above links to his writing about sex which includes an article about child porn being perfectly accepable. And he supports anal sex as well – anything that is degrading is okay with him, apparently.

Note to 9/2: I know that you generally don’t let folks include links to their blogs, which I appreciate. But given that Becstar has claimed that I wrote something that I didn’t, I ask you to let me include the links so I can defend myself. If you prefer not, that’s up to you and you can delete them- you’ll see them in parentheses.

Becstar- I’m not sure why you felt the need to put my name in quotes or refer to me as “that ‘charlie'”. To refer to me in that way seems unnecessary and I don’t understand why you felt the need to do anything other than refer to me by name. Can you explain what prompted you to do so?

Second, I have two posts on anything related to child porn. One was a story about a situation involving the National Library in Sweden (http://bit.ly/ASgpA). And one about a guy who photoshopped images of girl’s faces onto images of nude women (http://bit.ly/8U01n).

In neither of these posts did I say anything about being ok with child porn. In fact, I said that the photoshopping of girls faces onto women’s bodies squicked me. I’ve never said that child porn was ok and I’ve never said that “anything that is degrading is okay”. I have said that if someone finds something pleasurable AND that they consent to it (which children, by law and by definition, can’t do), I support their doing it. I have also always said that if someone doesn’t want to do anything, they shouldn’t ever be pressured, coerced or forced into doing it.

I’m fine with you disagreeing with me, but please don’t make things up in order to vilify me. I find it insulting and unnecessary.

Ah, but do not forget that for many people certain sexual activities have political implications that they cannot get behind.
Many simply refuse to have anal sex because it is commonly seen as being degrading to women- if it is enjoyable or not doesn’t matter in this context.

And this is why I wholeheartedly agree with your “I Hate Men” post. Seriously, I avoid thinking about porn every day of my life. Men I know collect the most degrading and disgusting scenes of pornography. Sometimes, they don’t even wack off to it, they just like it for “the lulz”, as if the abuse and degradation of women is a pithy joke you can share with your chums.

I should have never read that article. Thinking about how horribly I was treated by my boyfriends and other boys and older men growing up still, to this day, makes me cringe or rage. So let’s just throw in easy access to rape porn and an expectation for anal and facials and it’s a good thing? Yeah, dick-kicking feelings abound here.

Really, if things keep going on like they are, I think the biggest service we could do for the girls of the world is to systematically lobotomize men. I don’t wish the shit I put up with on anybody. I shudder to think of the kind of misogyny floating around the bus stop now that everyone has a high-speed connection to the most graphic and plentiful evidence of the systematic exploitation of half of the population.

Cody describes his first real-life ejaculate-to-the-face finale like this: “It was the happiest moment of my young life. There is just something about blowing a load in a chick’s face that makes you feel like a man.”

Isn’t it funny how sex acts designed to appeal to the male ego necessarily demean the one being acted upon? (And by “funny”, I mean “disgusting/depressing/horrifying”.) “Feel like a man” = masculinity = conquest, domination, aggression, control.

Let’s see, that makes 99% of pornography a graphic celebration of sexual masculinity rituals, considering the ubiquity of the infamous money shot. And I’m generally called a “prude” whenever I mention my aversion to the common practice of spattering women with man goo. Ya know, because the dom/sub theme is all in my head…I’m just looking for things to get angry about. Thankfully, wankstains like Cody come along and confirm exactly what I–and most rad fems–have been saying all along.

To those of you who like to come over here and argue that men can tell the difference between porn and real life, and who claim that porn has no effect on the way men treat their sexual partners, I give you Eric Spitznagel’s take and respectfully ask you to shut the fuck up.

I hear this. All. The. Fucking. Time. If you spend some time perusing and interacting with others on sex forums (yeah, I did at one time and, yes, I’m ashamed to admit it), it becomes unequivocally clear that men’s minds are (probably irreversibly) warped by regular porn usage. It is not uncommon to see men lament their partner’s unwillingness to be spattered with man goo, do anal, get “face fucked” (essentially: the man shoves it down her throat while the woman holds still, with varying positions involved). I’ve seen poor deprived misogybags declare that they’ve been forced to have affairs because their mean, unadventurous wives won’t let them stick it in the backdoor. They’ve also talked about wanting to divorce their wives because they can’t have porn star sex, they’ve gone off on long-winded raging tirades because their wives/girlfriends won’t swallow, they think their sex lives are bland and boring if BDSM isn’t somehow involved, or if she won’t do it in public. And always, always, a steady stream of “How do I get my wife/girlfriend to…?” queries.

The rampant sexual narcissism among men today is just, it’s staggeringly astounding. It’s also the reason I was turned on to feminism. I didn’t know at the time that what I was witnessing was called “misogyny”, but I knew there was a wide-spread, almost pathological, problem with the male population. And I wanted answers, damn it. It was a relief to finally get them, but there’s no relief in knowing that the majority of men out there are irredeemably porn sick.

This is why I don’t really date. Like, you’re out to dinner with some d00d and he seems totally normal, and then as soon as he gets you in private it’s all “Hey, reverse-cowgirl anal is the only thing that can get me off” and I’m all, “Um, what’s my last name, Dude I’ve known for, like, a week?”

I’ve tripped over so many seekrit misogynists (i.e. so seekrit they don’t even realize it about themselves, really, the hate has been so normalized), it completely has killed any impulse to date. I’ve got friends, a job, and a cat able to express more affection and emotional depth than 90% of the borderline-sociopaths running around out there. What do I need a dude for? Steinem’s fish/bicycle quote has never been more dead-on accurate.

I actually did a post kind of along that line just recently. I have to admit that I’m queer, not gay (as in I can go both ways if I want). But it overwhelmingly comes down to the fact that I refuse to date assholes. And the vast majority of men are assholes. Maybe not in a professional context, and maybe not in a strictly platonic context. But I can safely say that even some of my closest male friends—if I was attracted to them—I would never date. Because I can refuse to go to the movies with a misogynist friend. I can tell them off sometimes, or just ignore them when I’m too tired to say anything. But the idea of inviting that kind of misogyny into my bedroom and home, where the person demeaned and exploited is me, just makes me want to vomit. No thanks.

If dudes are all that you want to have sex with, the trick, it seems, is finding a decent human being that you are attracted to that happens to have a penis. Sadly, the baggage that comes with having a penis seems to be mutually exclusive in the majority of cases with being a decent human being.

I didn’t even know how bad porn could get until I read about Max Hardcore films. That made me wary of all porn, because his films are simply one extreme of a frightening trend. Sooner or later someone’s going to try and top him. I will never ask any of my friends if they watch Max Hardcore films, because if they answered “Yes” I would lose respect for them.

I worry about the effect that porn has on people, and like Meghan stated, I feel as though trying to find a man who sees women as human beings would be like a shot in the dark. I’d rather never have sex again than with a guy who thinks it would be cool to try and pressure me into getting a facial or having anal sex.

If most women knew how very risky anal sex is–the anus and rectum were not designed for sexual activity and much can go horribly wrong, even when practiced with a gentle, considerate partner–they wouldn’t even entertain the thought. This is an issue that needs to be taken much more seriously than it is, and not just because society is colluding to turn women into amateur porn stars.

Yes, thank you. This does need more attention. It’s not edgy or cool or transgressive. It’s risky, filthy, and an easy way to get an infection. I work in the microbiology department of a medical lab, and I can’t tell you how many cultures we get where the source is rectal, anal, perianal, etc. People get infections that way, b/c the tissue is delicate and tears, and guess what? You’ve got a bazillion bacteria in your intestines, and they are supposed to stay there, not go elsewhere. Why do you think you’re supposed to wash your hands after using the bathroom? You’re not supposed to suck on your fingers after taking a shit. You gotta wash up. Criminy. I wish people would quit being so liberal and accepting of every damned thing.

I think the problem is that anyone daring to denounce anal sex as hazardous to your health risks getting slapped with the label “homophobic”, thanks to the Christian fundie crowd and their liberal use of medical data to support their anti-gay agenda. And, you know, anal abscesses, fissures and fistulas, permanent sphincter damage, these topics aren’t sexxxay, so they don’t sell books. Everyone’s getting their anal education from Hip, Cool self-styled “sexperts” who make big $$$ telling people how awesome it is to “pucker up”.

“I wish people would quit being so liberal and accepting of every damned thing.”
Yes. People need to understand that admitting something is risky is NOT the same as stopping people from doing said risky thing. healthy attitude of ‘look, this can cause serious health problems’ is much more helpful than ignorance and liberalism in its worst form (i.e. as not taking responsibility, and not speaking up when necessary)

Oh young Travis. What is even more “disgusting,” perhaps, is me, scratching the shit out of my crotch in public, due to the itchy red bumps I developed the few times I decided to try to a heavy pruning below.

As for Meghan’s comment, however: “And then there’s Jenna Jameson. She is not a woman.”
What pray tell, then, *is* she?

Apparently she’s “ruining it for all of us” or something. Last time I checked, you could have all the plastic surgery in the world and finance your BMW with filmed acts of sex. But the only reason that anyone would treat you like shit or take you as a representative of what “women want” (i.e. what misogynists want women to do for them) is because they’re misogynist douchebags too indoctrinated by the patriarchy to tell their ass from their elbow.

I don’t speak for porn stars, and they don’t speak for me. Women aren’t a monolithic group of sexbots. Is that such a fucking hard concept?

I think the idea that some of us are trying to make here is that the burden of social responsibility is on all of us. The things we choose to do, or not do, or passively allow or to ignore all shape society in one way or another and to varying degrees. Porn has a damaging effect when it is extreme AND popular as well as condoned. Women who are in the porn industry and get cosmetic surgery aren’t doing it to make them feel better about themselves, that is an argument that can’t be substantiated. It’s to be more desirable in the eyes of the industry, which has a tendency to encourage terrible defamation and degradation without any conscience. All people have feeling, but we also all have the responsibility of displaying good character. Not that we have to shoulder the responsibility of raising all the children in the world. That is the other part of the problem. Boys don’t learn that being a man is about respecting people, developing internal strength to stand up for people who can’t do so for themselves, being honest and backing down when you’re wrong, because (many) men don’t seem to know that anymore, themselves. Women face a similar problem. Mothers don’t (generally) teach their daughters that they can and should stand up for themselves if they are disrespected in any way as well as how to determine universal boundaries and develop personal ones.

Also, only porn stars are “porn star trim” and I’m sure there’s a not small demographic of THOSE women who are normal to extra bushy. Porn is a vague generalization.

We realize that not all men think this way, I believe it’s the alarming number of voices we are hearing that DO and not enough that don’t. This seems to have discouraged us and make us think that maybe we need disclaimers such as “I don’t like anal. I will not blow you in exchange for dinner and you may not touch me anywhere interesting without asking me first” even though these assumptions should never be made about ANYONE. It’s a natural part of the “get to know you” process.

On a somewhat similar note, I seem to have noticed that the older men are, the more fuck-oriented and the less love-making oriented they seem to be. Single guys in their early 20s are searching for a “cool chick” who listens to their kind of music and digs video games, while men in their 40s want a fuck buddy they can kick out of bed after doing things that HE likes.

There once was a woman named Jenna Marie Massoli. She was italian and had a fucked up childhood. Thing is, she gave up her humanity, and therefore femininity, when she transformed herself into Jenna Jameson. Which is her stage name. Which is not the name of an actual person. Jenna Jameson is a person who, in her own words, wanted to become the biggest porn star of all time. She fucked a whole lot of people with that goal in mind, and let people film her while she did it. She set up one of the biggest porn “empires” ever, which now stretches from a thirty million dollar a year website to a show on Playboy TV where she lets up and comers in the porn business battle over a contract for said website.
So when you are talking about Jenna Jameson, just like when you are talking about any public persona such as Bill Maher, Phillip Roth, or Dialbo Cody, you aren’t talking about the unknowable parts. These people might be fine people when they are sitting at home drinking their starbucks and reading the paper. Hell, to use an extreme example, you can still find videos online of Hitler playing with his dog, Blondie. He was apparently a big animal lover. But those aren’t the parts of a public figure who matter. The parts we can see are what matter. The parts those people choose to let us see. Bill Maher makes himself his show, Phillip Roth his books, Diablo Cody her movies, and Jenna Jameson has made herself pornography personified. These people have been fine with letting themselves become products in order to make money. And that is why I see it as A-OK to treat them as such.
Jenna Jameson isn’t a bad person because she has a vagina or because she has sex or because she is a size two. She is a bad person, a non-entity, because she makes her money on subjugating her own sex. She has made more money than Midas by letting herself be used. And then people on here are rushing to her defense whenever someone points out the hypocrisy of that? Ridiculous.
I am male, and let me tell you, most males suck. But ya know what, so do most females. People suck in general. People, especially people in America, are assholes who would step over their own mother for a dollar. We have been bred and raised to love money, and we see that as an excuse. We pretend like we don’t have a fucking free will because of “societal pressures.” Well, Bullshit, I am not a machine. When I was younger I looked at porn because I was a stupid guy, not because of the oppressive nature of religion on my sexual development, not because of the readily available pre-packaged nudity on every market stand, not because of anything other than myself wanting to. And when I stopped looking at porn, it was because I realized it was a bad thing to do.
So don’t see me as the enemy, as some man swooping in here to demand you all break up this meeting at once and make your ways back to the kitchen. I just want you to realize that if you aren’t a humanist, if you aren’t holding women accountable as much as you do men, then you are doing a grave disservice to yourselves. You are shooting yourselves in the foot. And no matter how much you want to blame society, in the end it will be your fault.

‘We pretend like we don’t have a fucking free will because of “societal pressures.” ‘

Yeah, I’d agree with that. No matter how much porn a person views, they still choose how they act in their lives. Saying porn “causes” people to act in a certain way sounds, to me, like an excuse. How long until we start hearing about poor innocent men who totally wouldn’t have turned into rapists, if it wasn’t for all those evil women on the internet and IRL corrupting him?

To me, it seems little different from blaming videogames or rock music when you kid chooses to shoot up his (and it’s usually *his*) school.

On the same token, though, you must then agree that we cannot for any reason take away Jenna Jameson or other professional porn star’s personal responsibility. And just to be clear, this is world’s apart from some kid making a video with her pushy boyfriend and him uploading it online. There is a whole industry of rich women out there who make themselves richer by subjecting their sex. By making women in general look like twats, and by having unhealthy body modifications which they then pretend are the norm. Can you not agree that these women are just as guilty?

Oh yes, definately. They can’t avoid culpability for something they’ve chosen to do…if they truly believe that it is empowering or somesuch, that’s something of an excuse, but they are still to be held accountable for their actions.

I’m not enlightened […], at least not in the bullshit modern sense of the word. I am not putting myself out here as an enlightened modern male, I am just a person who is pointing out what I see as an inconsistency in another person. I was also saying that Jenna Jameson is the stage persona of a real person, and that this stage persona doesn’t even act like a person, more like a capitalistic wet dream.
Additionally, it is interesting that you claim I compared her to Hitler since I didn’t. I was simply saying we had to judge famous figures by what they put out there, not by our assumptions about their personal life.
[EDITED]

Mat, I edited your comment because it was heinously rude and needlessly aggressive. You can argue, and you can even be an asshole, but you aren’t going to call people names and tell them they’re stupid.

Okay, a person, man, woman, whatever, making up a stage name and work persona does not rob them of their humanity nor does it mean it is okay to treat them as non-humans. Jenna Jameson is a person, in her stage persona and out of it. Same goes for Iggy Pop, Joan Jett, Nick Cage and any and every other performer who performs under a name other than that give unto them at birth. And nothing ANY person does makes them a non-person or a non-entity…you may not LIKE what they do, but guess what, biology and all those good things make them human…just like you. And if you think it is A-OK to treat them as such, well cupcake, that says a hell of a lot more about you than it says about them, and none of it is very good. Jenna is a whore, right? So it is okay to treat her like garbage? How very, very enlightened! How…humanist!

And really, if you know so much about Jenna, you would know she does not speak highly about most of her porn experiences. You would know she, like most other humans, has struggled with some serious shit. Hell, she wrote a whole book about it and has come out very publically about it. Yet, all that in mind, she deserves to be treated like crap? WTF?

And guess what? I agree with you on a few things: I think most people are assholes, and I think people do need to be held accountable for their actions, but hear this, Mat…when rapists, murderers, child molesters, and other violent criminals walk free every damn day, when stupid wars rage over stupid shit, when a shitload of other shit goes on…well gee…Jenna is way down on the accountability list.

I swear, the attitude that making up a new name and playing towards a persona denies a person of their basic damn humanity? Well shit then, 99% of the people HERE are non-humans, and performers of any kind need to be called to judgment then.

Including you…I mean, if jenna were standing there in front of you looking you in the eye would you say this shit to her face, or would you give a different performance? You might, because gee, eye to eye, you might have to see her as human.

Oh yeah, I also wonder if you would say the same shit you said-the unedited version- to Natalia’s face too.

I kind of doubt it. Humans are weird like that, complex and all…and far braver when not looking another human in the face.

And nah, you are not sweeping in here to tell women what to do, you’re just telling us what will happen if we don’t do what you think we should, and how we should view other women…not a big difference, really.

“when rapists, murderers, child molesters, and other violent criminals walk free every damn day, when stupid wars rage over stupid shit, when a shitload of other shit goes on…well gee…Jenna is way down on the accountability list.”

No, she isn’t. Nor is any of the rest of us. There is no hierarchy of accountability. We are each and every one of us accountable for any action that is freely chosen.

Faith, I agree with that, but when Other People are sitting around talking about Who Should have to Answer for their “sins”…yeah, Jenna and many others? Way down on the list. Or at least that is how I see it. Woman who makes porn vs muderer (ect) is not a hard call for me.

But yes, all people Should Be accountable for their actions- on that we completely agree.

“But yes, all people Should Be accountable for their actions- on that we completely agree.”

I’m pretty sure that most of the people reading this (at least the feminist ones) do hold rapists, child molesters, murderers, etc. accountable for their actions. I’m pretty sure that many to most of the feminists who speak out about porn spend just as much time – if not more – holding violent criminals accountable for their actions (as much as any person can hold another person accountable for another person’s actions). As long as there’s no discrepancy as far as to who is getting held accountable then I fail to see the problem.

There’s a big difference between disagreeing about what a person should be held accountable for and stating that certain people are not as important to take into consideration in regards to accountability – just so long as there are other people out there doing things that are far worse.

The second argument comes dangerously close to attempting to deflect responsibility/accountability when you (generic you) know that the individual is accountable for criticisms being made against them, or for harm caused. The second argument is a borderline cop-out.

The first argument is more a matter of difference in opinion. And we all have a right to our opinion as to the impact a person’s behavior does or does not have…

1) Given the man’s age we have to wonder how he developed the interest in the topic of the article…

2) That aside, it doesn’t really look like it says all that much to me. Teenagers are sending texts containing photos of each others genitals, teenagers are using IMs to display their genitals to each other, anal is no longer so taboo…Not exactly news.

3) “250 of 1000 adolescent females surveyed in Great Britain hope to one day become strippers” was an interesting statistic. If I was desperately poor rather than a successful state leech, it’d probably be a toss-up between working in a call centre & low budget porn/nude shots. I’m probably flattering myself in imagining that the latter would even be an option for me, but the overriding imperative in gay pornography is generally young, so I’d be in with a chance. Idk which I’d pick, really, apparently call centres are fucking grim.

4) “The awkward truth, according to one study, is that 90 percent of 8-to-16-year-olds have viewed pornography online” is one of the most muddled sentences I’ve read in a long time. How the hell is that “awkward”? Frankly at this stage I’m surprised there’s 10% who haven’t.

5) As radfem boiler-plates go, this post isn’t bad. Nice work coming up with a synonym for privilege (I see you underlined it, so clearly your quite proud with yourself) but really, in places it just seems like you’re imposing your fury onto an article that doesn’t really bear the weight. Like you said, the guy’s a mediocre, a standard issue hack. I don’t find anything especially remarkable about the article. As you say, the eye-brow quotes are almost certainly fabricated (“my young life”?).

I think that you could have done a lot better, target-wise. There’s a whole internet out there.

“4) “The awkward truth, according to one study, is that 90 percent of 8-to-16-year-olds have viewed pornography online” is one of the most muddled sentences I’ve read in a long time. How the hell is that “awkward”? Frankly at this stage I’m surprised there’s 10% who haven’t.”

Awkward is not the word I’d use either. Disturbing is more like it. By your last sentence tho, I think the point of that statement flew about a mile over your head. The fact that you – and likely no-one reading this – is surprised is disturbing. If we lived in a world that made any damn sense, we’d all be surprised and disturbed by those stats.

“I don’t find anything especially remarkable about the article.”

The fact that it -isn’t- “remarkable” is also sort of the point. The fact that articles like these – and attitudes like the ones he displayed – are commonplace is the -problem-. The fact that he will be taken seriously by the majority of young men who read that article is also the problem.

I know, right? I’ve had about enough of James today, what with the pretending that there’s absolutely no difference between this or that, that sexism doesn’t exist, that women are not oppressed or exploited, all for the sake of sophomoric, circular, and ultimately boring arguments.

Quit implying that women aren’t sexually exploited, quit trying to relativize everything just for the sake of argument. You’re irritating me with arguments you know are bullshit when I’m busy, which is the surest route to getting your comment deleted.

Well not directly maybe, but Human Papilloma virus does cause cancer. And you’re more likely to get it the more (hetero)sexual partners you have – it can be transmitted between women but it’s much less likely. (oh and condoms don’t necessarily prevent transmission of HPV either).

And let’s not get into HIV of course….

So maybe encouraging young folks to have lots of (condomless)penis in vagina/anus sex ain’t that great an idea.

Well it seems like to me you’ll have a lot more luck promoting universal vaccination than attempting to eradicate pornography. They’re already making sure that the entire youth get it here in Britain, my sister got a jab just the other month.

Also, the dumbass with the comment about the pubic hair should know there is no hair inside the vagina. If he’s going to use scientific words like a big boy, he should use the right one. It’s the vulva he’s talking about, not the vagina.

Porn is definitely harmful. Even if you are part of the miniscule percentage of people who enjoy being used that way, it still harms the women who are forced into it, and the women who have to interact on a daily basis with men who consume it.

The strangest part is that the “thinspirations” they use are so unanimously hideous. I know only one person who is attracted to the gaunt-verging-on-skeletal look & he’s a recovering anorexic himself. If they’re trying to impress men they’re going about it in a rather peculiar way.

When I was at my low weight of 39kgs (about 86lbs) it was the scariest fucking thing in my life, even scarier than being raped.

To the people that look at thinspiration it’s hope – a twisted hope, but hope none the less. It has very little to do with physical appearance and more to do with control (in my case anyway), in fact, most of the people on pro-ana sites don’t give a fuck about looks. They care about weight. They care about that smallest goal. Unless you’ve been eating disordered yourself, you probably don’t have a fucking clue.

Sorry ND I just couldn’t help myself. Pro-Ana shit sometimes touches a nerve with me and this was one of them.

It’s not great fun to research, as with most things which are hell to actually suffer from, but I can recall reading one girl saying that she couldn’t stand to be seen as fat as she was on one group blog (doubtless she weighed about a fifth of what I do).

For the most part the stuff was about the struggle, not the outcome, though. I can’t understand that properly, like you say, but I can see the difference.

“…but I can recall reading one girl saying that she couldn’t stand to be seen as fat as she was on one group blog ”

Yeah, I remember being like that and caring what other people with skewed senses of body image thought of my body. And it’s not fun to research these things IAWTC. The thing is with Eating Disorders often the most desired outcome is to be so skinny, you rot from view. Aka deathwish.

For the most part I am, thanks – maintained a healthy weight for over a year now, now that my body isn’t shutting down, life is a lot more live-able :P
(p.s I swear, that isn’t meant to be as snarky as it sounds)

They’re certainly not “okay” but they do provide a bunch of support and a safe place to talk about your feelings with your eating disorder. Instead of the usual “why won’t you just eat?” bullshit you get from 9/10 people.

I’m still in recovery but I still visit them sometimes. I don’t know why, but I find them comforting to know that I wasn’t ever really alone and to remind the women (and less frequently, men) on them that they are not alone either.

I just gotta say, I blame the whole fashion/modeling industry far more than porn for women’s negative body-image issues… I never grew up looking at porn, but I sure did grow up on movie and fashion mags.

Adult male abusers frequently show pornography to children/ teens to ‘train’ them- it is epidemic. The harm it does is incalculable, as studies of child sexual abuse will tell you (generic ‘you’).
Children’s exposure to pornography (even non-abused children) happens earlier and earlier as pornography is normalised, is rampant in the media and is justified by the very silencing ‘free speech’ obfuscation.

ND: Agreed, yet I do think even with a mainstreaming of porn that young girls are subjected to “body perfect” imagery in mainstream media far earlier. Most dolls (of the barbie variety), the ‘Disney Princesses’, almost all of the actresses on shows for children (at least here in the US, it might be different elsewhere) are skinny, perfect skin, long hair, in the latest fashion, so on.

I mean, when I hear my seven year old relative complain that she is fat, when she is anything but, and worry about what she is eating or if she has a pimple or not….I don’t think it’s because of porn quite yet, I am more likely to suspect the Little Mermaid, Princess Jasmine, and I-Carly.

And it just stays that way on through, you have that asshat on American Idol who will toss women who can sing because they are not “pop-diva” hot, shows where there is one token nerdy or heavy girl who is the subject of torment by all the pretty girls (and the guys), women like Tyra banks, SuperModel, telling girls to respect themselves on her talk show and not be ‘sexy’, then turning around and having girls close to the same age stripped down and disected about their looks on America’s Next Top Model….and yeah, then the porn comes in….

“I mean, when I hear my seven year old relative complain that she is fat, when she is anything but, and worry about what she is eating or if she has a pimple or not….I don’t think it’s because of porn quite yet, I am more likely to suspect the Little Mermaid, Princess Jasmine, and I-Carly.”

I was exposed to porn at the age of about 5. I know many other girls who were exposed long before puberty. Some through abuse. Some simply through the widespread availability.

“Faith- I am sure some girls are. Do you think they outnumber the girls who are exposed to Disney Princesses and Barbie?”

Outnumber, no. But I think you may be underestimating the number of girls who are exposed. I think most people are likely underestimating the number of girls who are exposed. And even if they aren’t exposed directly, the influence from porn is still there from their peers and society in general.

I’d also like to say that as much as I do not care for either Barbie or the Disney Princesses, I do not believe that either are as damaging as porn. My daughter owns Barbie dolls. She also likes the Disney Princesses. I’m not thrilled by this fact. However, the idea of my daughter playing with Barbie dolls does not concern me as much as the idea of her watching Max Hardcore or reading Hustler.

Presactly. Women who saw porn as children often describe their horror and how the images were ‘burned in’ to their minds, for which there is no escape. It is bad enough in cases of ‘accidental’ viewing; in cases in which porn has been used to ‘train’ incested girls the damage is incalculable. Something once seen cannot be unseen.

Barbie dolls etc. may contribute to body image problems, but they are simply not on the same scale. When people put them on the same level, I am very suspicious of their motives, tbh. It smacks of a deliberate attempt to deflect critcism from porn, and to play down the number of children who are exposed to it.

I don’t think that the main problem with porn is that it causes negative body images. That’s a problem, but I’m pretty sure the fact that it teaches people that women are objects to be used and abused is a bigger deal.

ND: Actually, a big theme in a lot of the anti porn work I have seen/read (speeches by Dines, “the price of pleasure”, “pornified”, so on) is women who date/are married to men who watch porn feel as if they are no longer/ not attractive to their partners. As in, the women interviewed say that.

I agree with that completely, but I think that the anti-woman message of most porn is the umbrella concern. For example, were I to find out my partner were using porn, the first thing I’d take from it is that he didn’t think much of women or conceive of us as human in the same way he sees himself as human. That to me is the fundamental problematic element of porn from which all of the others derive. If one sees women as fully human, one won’t have expectations as to how women will alter their bodies and appearances in order to arouse one. One won’t feel entitled to expect women to conform to one’s desires but will rather find women attractive as is. A lot of women do feel unattractive when their partners use porn, and that is terrible (part 3 of my series deals with that), but I think that derives from the sense that they can’t be what their partners expect, and from the realization that they’re stuck in a situation in which they’re expected to try to do so even though they don’t want to or can’t. It’s a deep sense of unfairness that manifests as the complaint that they feel unattractive (I can speak from past experience on that one). A large part of my objection to porn use centers on its negative effects on relationships, and on men’s sense of entitlement to do something that hurts their partners, but I think that’s primarily a result of a misogynistic society and the porn industry capitalizing on that misogyny. So it’s the misogyny and entitlement I think I’d like to see addressed as the fundamental issue.

And that women are tortured in the making of pornography, women are made into pornography without their permission, and that pornography is used as a script by which to rape and abuse women and girls. It is shown to children by sexual abusers.

I think that we (generic) are frequently in danger of ignoring the fact that it is the making of porn as well as it’s ‘effects’ that is a problem. It is easy for us to ignore the performers of porn and their abuse. We end up treating it like we do with Barbie and Sindy dolls: these items were created, and the effect of their creation is seen over here on these people externally. No abuse of women themselves is involved in the crafting of a doll, or the drawing of a Disney princess. However, porn is *real*, the women abused in it are human beings, and our protest at misogyny must go beyond ‘this has a bad effect on women outside of porn’ (which it does)- we need to see the abuse of women in and as a result of porn as an integrated whole, whilst never *ever* abandon the women in pornography.

Seeing porn as a form of art or speech that then has an effect on women externally re: body image ONLY plays into the hands of porn’s supporters. The solution to Barbie and Sindy may be said to be to create dolls that look more like ‘normal’ women. Porn’s defenders can then say ‘well, how about we make lots of lovely porn with ‘normal’-looking women in it and that will solve the problem’ (Suicide Girls, anyone?). That will NOT stop abuse, just change the appearance of it.

What we object to goes beyond ‘body image’ (though body-image is important) – it is about rape and torture of women in the making of porn, in prostitution, and the use of the videotaped abuse to torture and rape other women. We must never allow ourselves to be fobbed off by the disingeuous lies of pornographers.

No offense Laurelin, and yeah I get what you and ND are saying here, but as a woman in pornography, I’m not real sure either of you would be people I would ever want speaking about “the experiences of women in porn” because well, you seem to favor on type of story, and one type of story only….which hey, works for what you are trying to accomplish and all- but yeah, as a woman who actually works in that field, I would state flat out who I have found to be more abusive/objectifying…and it isn’t the pornographers or, 99% of the time in my experience, the people watching it. Nah. It’s Other People.

I can’t help but see this as a smear. Sexual predators have also been known to use alcohol, & that’s hardly a case for a prohibition. Porn is powerful stuff, which can be misused. Like a lot of things. This applies to all pornography, from Max Hardcore to (to give the most artisticly meritorous piece of porn that comes to my head) Lost Girls. I’m sure if you can a pre-pubscent a copy of Lost Girls there’s a chance they’d get a bit mucked up over it, but that doesn’t mean anything other than “You shouldn’t give copies of Lost Girls to pre-pubescents”. It seems to me like you’re trying to argue something else, but I’m not sure I see it as any different to plying a child with weed or beer: doesn’t reflect badly on the things, it reflects badly on the person exploiting their potency.

Additionally, I continue to fail to see why you are completely disregarding gay porn. I can see how it doesn’t quite fit comfortably in your bizarre narrative of porn being all about woman hatred, rather than people enjoying watching other people have sex, but when you start to speak of the usage in grooming this matter become ineluctable: abusers use both.

Additionally, blah blah structuralism, blah blah ignoring all evidence opposing your understanding of the world so your model works properly, etc etc…Just re-read the RE comment right above, that’s more than enough from me.

Nine Deuce- I have asked James time and time again NOT to speak to me, or address me in any way. I’d be grateful if you could tell him since my wishes are nothing to him and he doesn’t seem to understand the word ‘no’.

Obviously, it’s your blog, and what you do is up to you, but I feel I need to let you know my feelings.
Many thanks,
L.

By my previous comment, I am referring to James’ behaviour towards me on other threads as well.

In other news, anyone who wants to follow up on the use and abuse of women in/ and as a result of porn, please look at the links on the right hand section of my blog under ‘Anti-Porn Links’ and ‘Anti-prostitution links’. Also, many of the blogs on my blogroll contain survivors’ stories and evidence from women who work in the DV sector.

Read the evidence. Listen to the tone of the porn-supporting males on this thread- this is evidence also. The disregard for women’s words when they disagree, their condescention, refusal to back off when asked, their ignoring of women’s accounts of abuse.

I’m with Renegade on this too, even though I’m sure we’re not on the same page in some other things. The only reason that Jenna Jameson is treated like shit, looked down upon, and paradoxically becomes a model for what a Good Woman should submit to in bed is because of misogyny. Only misogynists think that women are a monolithic group. Only misogynists think that the actions of one person taint the entire reputation of a class.

Her career isn’t my cup of tea. And maybe she’s not a nice person. But that doesn’t mean that she speaks for me just because we have the same gender identity. And anyone that thinks that she does, or that her career or behavior provides some insight into what all women are like, is a big fucking misogynist.

“I guess I’m saying that I think we should all back off of Becstar for a second, and allow her (whether we agree with her or nor) to express anger on this matter. It does seem like a matter of numerous people against one, purely because of hurt feelings. The torture and sexual abuse of women is the big picture, not what Becstar or anyone else thinks of your sex life. After all, it aint none of our business.”

But that isn’t the issue.

“Given that there is no physical reason for women to like anal sex, the only reason a woman would want to do it is to please a man. No radical feminist would want anal sex because it is equivalent with BDSM – its purpose is to dominate and harm.”

It isn’t a case of hurt feelings. Nor was the comment that sparked the anger about the torture and sexual abuse of women.

It was the fact that becstar literally, with no mis-reading possible, claimed that any woman who wanted anal sex could not be a radical Feminist, and that no man that participated in it could do it for any reason but Sadistic Power Tripping.

A summary across the board dismissal of numerous men, and women, based on an utterly insulting premise.

I doubt that anybody involved in that discussion would have jumped down anyone’s throat for claiming that abuse and degradation of women is utterly horrific and unacceptable.

But, to respond aggressively after being summarily dismissed, discounted, insulted and vilified?

How can you possibly say, on a Radical Feminist blog no less, that this is not a perfectly acceptable response when situations like that occur?

Isn’t that precisely the response that should be SUPPORTED in situations like that?

“It was the fact that becstar literally, with no mis-reading possible, claimed that any woman who wanted anal sex could not be a radical Feminist, and that no man that participated in it could do it for any reason but Sadistic Power Tripping”.

Thank you for proving my point. It is all about your little hurt feelings.

You *feel* upset because Becstar said something you don’t like. yep, it’s not nice, but it’s hardly the end of the world. Get the fuck over it. Women are being tortured and raped daily- that is the issue here, not the fact of your fragile and delicate feelings.

Did you ever stop to think what Becstar may have been through in her life? No, of course you didn’t, because it’s all about you.

And by the way, if you want to prove to women that you are not a “Sadistic Power Tripper’ who wants to hurt women, then don’t pile onto a woman with a bunch of other people just because she made you feel bad.

You need to think about why you are so defensive. If you think you being ‘insulted’ is more important than the sexual torture of women, then you are seriously fucked up.

“Please, please PLEASE see the big picture! What could be more important?!”

I’ve already stated that.

Being summarily dismissed, discounted, insulted and vilified, and remaining silent about it.

This is the core of every single inequality on earth, regardless of gender, race, creed, religion.

It is silence, acceptance, The turning of ones head that even ALLOWS such horrors to exist in the first place.

“Did you ever stop to think what Becstar may have been through in her life? No, of course you didn’t, because it’s all about you.”

No, not really. For the simple reason that there is no way i can form any idea of that. All i can act on, in this instance, are words, ideals, and logic.

I could, of course, ask the same of you. Have you stopped to think about what I may have been through in my life? What could possibly motivate me to be so utterly, unwaveringly, in support of lashing back with such intensity at the concept of remaining silent when someone dismisses your importance?

What could possibly motivate me, especially in a forum such as this, where i am inherently considered an antagonist, to be so vehement in my refusal to accept that there are situations where you need to turn your head at such things?

Honestly, i have no idea if you have. But whether you have or not has no bearing on the fact that there is no way you could possibly “put yourself in my shoes”, especially not with the information that has been presented here, nullifying any purpose in attempting to do so.

“Please, please PLEASE see the big picture! What could be more important?!”

I’m sorry, Laurelin. I fail to see how anyone here has denied the “big picture” by simply saying that they enjoy anal sex. Becstar didn’t say anything about women being tortured by anal sex. She made a direct statement that it was impossible for women to enjoy anal sex…period. Unless, of course, she had been severely damaged.

Becstar did not say that she had been traumatized and therefore had no desire to engage in anal sex. She didn’t even say anything about women being sexually abused (at least not in this conversation). Women enjoying anal sex and women being abused by being forced or coerced into any form of sex are two entirely different matters.

“becstar’s comments = possibly emotionally hurtful to people who like anal sex. Words that may hurt your feelings but do not stop you indulging in whatever sex acts you choose.”

It’s not about sex. My god it’s not about sex, not even close any more. And it’s sure as hell not about my feelings being hurt. (Oh noes, someone on teh internets disagrees with me! Whatever shall I do?)

What I keep saying, and what keeps being essentially ignored, is that it’s about blanket dismissal. Of anything.

Becstar’s rather less than subtle insinuation is that any women who purports to claim anal sex MUST have something wrong with them. Even in as much as they are too indoctrinated by the patriarchy to have not examined why they do and ‘realized the truth’ . She summarily dismisses and rejects the idea with no real attempt at discussion, simply stating what she believes over and over again. Physically impossible, there must be something wrong with you, etc. It just is because she says it is. And therefore anything I could possibly say, an argument, any evidence is nullified because ‘there’s something wrong with me’. Because I’m indoctrinated and invested in keeping my delusion and there for am, of course, going to say things that aid me in maintaining that delusion. She insults, and in doing so degrades, the intelligence and self awareness of any women who disagrees with her on this point. Worse, she does so not by debating on an intellectual level, but by attacking on an emotional one.

I cannot defend myself from ‘there is something wrong with you.” It’s not possible. Anything I say, she can refute with her original supposition of ‘there is something wrong with you.’

Were I less self assured, less confident, less comfortable with myself and my identity, I might actually start to believe her. Not on the basis of having a good point (which I don’t think she does), but on the basis of questioning my self worth. She might make me start thinking that… oh my god, what if there IS something wrong with me. You know what? I get enough of that from the mass media telling me I’m too fat, I’m too tall, I don’t wear enough make up, there’s something wrong with me because I don’t want children. You know what I really don’t need? That same emotional attack on my sense of self worth coming from another women who claims to be a feminist!

That kind of blanket dismissal is damaging to feminism. It’s damaging to women. Dogmatic dismissal is the death of intellectualism. It suffocates debate. And it’s dangerous when spoken as ‘truth’. In ANY forum, in any debate, about any topic.

So, no, it’s not about my feelings. It’s not about Becstar’s feelings either. It’s not (and this kind of debate should never be) about feelings. It’s about being open to discussion and not dismissing the opinions and self worth of other people because they disagree with you.

I’m not clear on the average age of the posters here, but I’m 24, and this is nothing remotely new. We didn’t have internet porn when I was a kid, but I nevertheless got into my parent’s porn, and old Playboys, and kinky erotica from 9-ish onward.

Also, 10 years ago, virtually all my friends and I had some interest in sex work. I liked the idea of being a stripper/dancer, and contemplated prostitution. My best friend desperately wanted to be a Playboy bunny.

I will not say anything disparaging about sex work or sex workers, but I will say this: to the best of my knowledge, none of us are sex workers now. I’m trying to work my way towards med school, I know a girl who ended up a stage manager in a professional theatre, and so on. No strippers.

I think this guy’s hopes and dreams for the future are a bit cart-before-the-horse. Until someone demonstrates that those 250 girls in the U.K. actually became strippers, I’m going to go with the assumption that most of them are going to end up doing something completely different. And there is not actually a “all girls aspire only to sex work now” crisis which is, well, new.

Primarily, I get irritated that people seem to have all the time in the world to discuss the merits and/or disadvantages of anal sex, or to have semantic gymnastic competitions, but nobody’s got two minutes to email the editor of Details or the writers of this article.

No shit, right? I’m going to add those e-mail addresses to the post. Dear EVERYONE: is the title of this post “Anal Sex: Totally Fucking Awesome or The Worst Thing Ever?” No? Ah, then get back to the fucking point.

Okay, so. Anal sex? Is merely the context (however unfortunate). The point that I (at least) am trying to make is that feminists who apply blanket dismissals to women who disagree with them over a particular point (whatever that point may be) are no better than men who do the same thing.

What I’m trying to argue is that when someone who claims to be a feminist insults the ability of other women to think, accuses them of being so indoctrinated and incapable of making their own choices, they are actively hurting other feminists. That they are hurting women as a whole. And that they push away women who might otherwise listen and engage in feminist debate and consider things they might not have previously, because they encounter nothing more than a brick wall of dogma that tells them that there is (clearly) something wrong with them.

If Becstar is right, if I’m so unable to reject my patriarchal domination, then why the hell should I even care about feminism. I’m happy being dominated and degraded by men, right? So why should I care enough to want to engage in feminist debate?

Thirded for the win, but I give Anja extra points for not only ignoring Nine Deuce’s request to get back on topic about children being brainwashed by porn in order to rub in the point that feminists are the ones who are really ruining women’s sexual liberation, but also for relentlessly pointing out that the personal opinions of one anti-anal sex feminist must change first before something can be done about a popular men’s magazine thanking heaven for little girls getting bigger breast implants and emulating prostitutes more every day.

The reason I won’t write to the author or editor comes down to the same reason I won’t respond to forum trolls. They don’t care, they don’t listen and all they want is the attention, which, if I give it to them, reinforces the initial behavior.

In fact, what ninedeuce did by placing the article in an open forum where it’s content can be discussed, dissected, analyzed, etc, is the best possible thing she can do. Because it’s out here that the discussion will be heard. It’s out here that changes will occur.

All I would accomplish by venting my rage in a private email to someone who probably isn’t going to listen, and probably isn’t going to care, and certainly isn’t going to change, is… nothing. Maybe I’d receive a form letter and a “Whatever, it’s just another feminazi” dismissal, because I’m not going to be saying anything they haven’t heard before, and dismissed before.

I have a limited amount of time and energy and I’m going to put it to work where I think it will do the most good – where there are people to read and engage in debate and exchange ideas. This is, and always will be, the way I approach activism of any sort.

So, yes, I have more time to engage publicly in what you consider semantic gymnastics than I do for raging helplessly in private.

Really, the only way to fight little girls internalizing sexism from pornography and men’s magazines laughing at this development is to chastise feminists until we’re all 100% sexually ethically perfect so that sexist editors of men’s magazines will start to take notice of women’s humanity and stop praising the pornification of children in their magazines.

Not everyone can juggle the extreme multitasking involved with engaging in feminist debate at a blog and writing a letter to misogynist magazines in the same day, and it would be cruel to make feminists who have a problem with the sexualization of kids come up with ways to make changes in our world beyond writing letters to misogynist offenders.

Becstar, for the sake of humanity’s progress and the advancement of all womankind, could you please just write on feminist blogs that anal sex means whatever anybody wants it to mean? You can still have your opinion on anal sex, natch, but if you stop declaring it publicly then your oppressive debate style will no longer interfere with the advancement of women’s rights and Anja can move on to fixing the next unknowingly oppressive feminist whose unenlightenment about the proper way to discuss anal sex on a feminist blog prevents social progress on the issue of our children increasingly adopting porn mimicry as their inherent sexuality.

Very true, you have ultimate Veto Powers and everything…but looking back, the whole anal sex detour appears to have been started by Becstar, not Anja. Anyone want to come down on her like a hammer and tell her what and where she should be writing re; sexualization and so on, or just Anja? In fact, without Bec’s set in stone decree there, chances are…well, the subject never would have been such an issue.

“Really, the only way to fight little girls internalizing sexism from pornography and men’s magazines laughing at this development is to chastise feminists until we’re all 100% sexually ethically perfect so that sexist editors of men’s magazines will start to take notice of women’s humanity and stop praising the pornification of children in their magazines.”

Apparently when a woman speaks out against male violence in general, instead of going after the men who commit these crimes, it is much more productive to chastise the woman who made the comment and accuse her of being a bigot instead of chastising the men who commit violent and abusive crimes.

“Blacks are seven times more likely to commit a “violent crime” than whites, and it would be utterly ludicrous to suggest that is a result of black empowerment or privilege.”

Oh, bullshit. Just flat-out racist bullshit. Black people are not more violent that white people. Black people are just more likely to be accused of violent acts and to actually be prosecuted when they do commit violent acts. It’s called racism. And you just displayed it quite well.

“Black people are just more likely to be accused of violent acts and to actually be prosecuted when they do commit violent acts.”

No, black people are more likely to both commit, and be the victim of violent crimes.

There is a wealth of statistics about this fact. From both Governmental agencies, and Independent Researchers. Crime of all forms is a far larger problems in black communities. (it is also a far greater problem in poor communities.) Stating this is not racism.

Racism would be implying that it is because blacks are inherently more violent, something I did not at all do.

Just to reiterate here, Are you actually implying that Violent Crime is NOT a greater problem in black communities than in white communities? What on earth would you possibly be basing a statement like that on?

That’s not entirely true, having a lower soci0-economic status does tend to make it more likely for a person to commit violent crimes, and black people are generally further down the ladder than white people. As a result, statistically speaking, the numbers are different, which I think was the point.

“That’s not entirely true, having a lower soci0-economic status does tend to make it more likely for a person to commit violent crimes,”

Isme,

I think the problem is in how violent crimes are defined. If you factor in domestic violence and sexual abuse (the type of crimes that are seriously under reported), I’m not at all of the belief that whites are any less violent than black people. So, yes, I find it an incredibly racist and bullshit comment.

On the other hand, though, I am led to believe that domestic violence, child abuse and similar things often swept under the carpet are more common in lower socio-economic groups (something to do with wanting to feel higher up the ladder than somebody, IIRC), though I don’t know by how much.

This is the second or third time (maybe more?) that one of your posts’ comments section has turned into a long debate about whether or not a specific sex act was inherently degrading to women and/or could only be enjoyed by people who had internalized misogyny.

Notably, in all of these debates, the X-is-inherently-degrading camp tends to highlight the mechanical nature of the act itself: who puts which anatomatical bits up in which other anatomical bits, stated motives aside. This is a pretty reductionist version of cultural criticism, and I am pleased to note that you yourself usually don’t seem to go there.

But I have to wonder–and I have asked this before. I’m fairly certain that I’ve examined my indoctrination and educated myself and all of that. If I still want to have sex (with a woman) in a Nine-Deuce-approved manner, what exactly is on the menu? I mean mechanically. I don’t want to hear platitudes about consent and respect and human dignity and stuff, because I think I have that covered. I want to hear the same level of anatomical and biological detail that Becstar and company are using to condemn particular sex acts. I want to know if it’s OK for people to French kiss, or nibble on each other’s earlobes, or fuck with strap-ons.

I would be really, really, honored if you’d reply, and frankly I think a sane discussion of this topic would in no way be a distraction. Because the worst PR problem with radical feminism is the appearence that it denies the legitimacy of all heterosexual sex acts, and no one seems willing to step up to the plate to say otherwise. You’re getting married. To a dude. So like Salt-n-Pepa said…

I’m not discussing my private sex life. Again, it’s none of anyone’s business. I’ve already said that I don’t know that there’s such a thing as a sex act that’s inherently degrading. I don’t even care to have that discussion since it’s not that interesting and since we’re never engaging in sex acts in their pure form, as configurations of bodies with no social meaning. I will talk about sex acts as they are culturally constructed and imagined. I’ve been planning to write about my version of “sex positiveness” for awhile, which I’ll do when I get to it, but I don’t need writing assignments from you. I’m frankly tired of the accusation that there’s some “ND-approved” version of hetero sex that I’m espousing. First, I don’t give a shit what you do unless it affects me or other women who haven’t asked to be affected by it. So, unless you’re a porn consumer, a sex abuser, or an objectifier, I don’t care what you do. I don’t approve or disapprove because I don’t give a shit. You’ll notice that I’m not engaged in this anal sex conversation because IT’S NOT WHAT THE POST IS ABOUT and because I’m not interested. Some people have been hurt by men’s use of anal sex as a tool of domination. That is a problem. Most men look at anal sex as a tool of domination. Also a problem. Some women like anal sex. Not a problem. The end.

Yup lots of stuff affects body image. But since it’s rare to see fannies in “vogue” (ok I don’t read it, so that’s an assumption) I’m guessing the trend for completely waxing pubic hair was started by porn. And my twenty something straight friend was telling me how men say her “I bet you’ve got a proper hippy bush”. Que? Since when was not wanting to end up with infected boils in a painful place associated with being a hippy?

Oh, i’d agree porn has a lot to do with that. In high school though I know almost all the female athletes waxed, because well, yeah, shorts and leotards and stuff like that. I am sure porn has much to do with the popularity of waxing, but I am also willing to bet fashion mags do as well. Can’t say as I have ever seen pubic hair on a swimsuit model. I saw an episode of America’s Next Top Model once where Tyra and her henchmen had a go at a girl for having stubble on her upper thighs.

Wow, just… wow. This really is an illustration of something I have been thinking about for some time- the way that when feminists first started protesting against porn, people promised it wouldn’t go the way they said it would. And now that it has, people ignore that feminists were some of the only people who predicted the direction it would go in (or why that is), & continue to ignore everything which critics of the sex industry have to say. They now stand up for people’s ‘right’ to do things which they (or their predeccessors) promised would never happen in their name. Your blog is great, btw. Found it through antiquelens.

I am not kidding one bit, is there any womyn only society in Canada? I seriously can’t take thinking about this crap anymore, and worrying about offending white men so that they don’t get all pissy and make me feel like shit. Jesus Christ this is sad. If people like this can exist, then I’m not sure I want to.

“It was the happiest moment of my young life. There is just something about blowing a load in a chick’s face that makes you feel like a man.”

I am at a loss for words. I am insulted to the core of my being because of this prick implying that to be a paragon of masculinity one must perform something so petty and barbaric. That I am expected to ejaculate semen on a woman’s face (or something else equally degrading), or I am not a ‘man,’ regardless of any other accomplishments and triumphs.

I will admit though, it does make me want to do one thing primitive and bestial: punch him in the face.

This kind of thing makes me wish there is an after-life. I want guys like THIS guy have to feel the pain of others’. For men to have to experience what women feel. Just… *just a little taste of Karma or whatever…

I know this thread is old. But I had to add some quotes from guys who feel entitled to anal. I went searching because I didn’t believe there were really those guys out there, but here they are. A message board for guys who are “suffering” from those frigid prude bitches who don’t want to be in pain.

“She’s actually very good and submissive, not a bossy betty like so many of the trolls out there. She’s always ready to give up regular sex or oral whenever I feel like it. I’m starting to resent the way she won’t do anal though. If she’s not willing to devote herself to me completely, I think it’s time to move on. She’s tried it and says it hurts too much, but I think she’s not allowing time to adjust. Any ideas how to motivate her? If I can’t turn her around soon I’ll have to dump her and she’ll probably kill herself, but it’s her own fault.”
(Note the, give it to me whenever I feel like it. It’s about ME)

A response:
“Man if that hoe won’t let you butt fuck the shit out of her then fuck her one last time cum all on her face and piss on her then tell her to leave the fucking house!
If i had her I would strip her down and grab her by her hair and ram a dildo up her little ass and put my cock up here pussy and make her learn how to take it. Once I was done with her ass I would pull out and make her suck my dick and ask her how her asshole taste. Girls need to learn that men need to fuck and do as they please to women. Women should be used as men please and they need to shut the fuck up about it and get their tits slapped, throats rammed with dick, and pussies streched to the max!”

“I’m just browsing and I’m not even sure how old this post is. Here is my opinion. If she doesn’t want to satisfy your needs you should break up with her. Your frustration will cause you to end up with another woman who will take care of you anyway.
As a side note to all of you hostile ladies who responded to this post, don’t bitch when your man leaves you for another woman and you’re stuck with a bush leage beta male. Women bitch soooo much about men cheating. Does anyone think that it might be the womans fault for not pleasing her man.
It’s anal sex, you can learn to do it. The fact that you will not should say everything to a man about how you feel twoard him.”

“i’m in the same boat as you (not getting anal) and feel i’ll prob cheat on her to get my jollies”

So yeah, I can’t exactly prove it comes from porn, but there seems to be a pretty significant shift in guys feeling as though women are being frigid and prude and punishing them when they won’t have porn star sex (i.e. allow themselves to be abused and treated like dirt). Apparently if I don’t let him stick it in my ass it’s my fault if he cheats.

Yes. This was on a Q and A site, kind of like yahoo answers. There were a lot of angry women on there, but the men seemed even angrier! Then later I read one guy say something along the lines of, I love to give anal, but no would I ever let anyone do it to me! Also the title of that question was, “Girlfriend won’t let me do anal. Selfish?” Because apparently it’s selfish for her to say anal sex hurts and she doesn’t want it. He thinks she’s just not giving it a fair chance to “adjust.” I heard the word “resentment” a lot from those guys. They generally think the woman is being prude and selfish and trying to manipulate him by not wanting anal. They think you can “learn” to like anal, or learn to tolerate it. You can hear from the tone of the asker’s voice that he thinks that sex is all about HIM and even says a submissive woman is best. He doesn’t even seem to talk about his girlfriend like she’s a human being with real feelings, “If I can’t turn her around soon I’ll have to dump her and she’ll probably kill herself, but it’s her own fault.” It’s unbelievable. It almost sounds like he’s saying he hates her so much for not putting up with anal that she should die.
The interesting thing is, all the guys I’ve been with who watch porn have shown a lot of interest in anal and cumming on me. My current boyfriend does not watch porn, and thinks anal sex is gross (though he’s game for a finger or something) and hasn’t ever brought it up. He also pointed out something kind of obvious/interesting about cum shots, that there’s no way it would feel better to pull out and masturbate than to just keep at the sex and finish inside, even with a condom. Coincidentally, the guy not into porn is also best in bed. Interesting.

Oh and one more thing, this quote:
“Man if that hoe won’t let you butt fuck the shit out of her then fuck her one last time cum all on her face and piss on her then tell her to leave the fucking house!
If i had her I would strip her down and grab her by her hair and ram a dildo up her little ass and put my cock up here pussy and make her learn how to take it. Once I was done with her ass I would pull out and make her suck my dick and ask her how her asshole taste. Girls need to learn that men need to fuck and do as they please to women. Women should be used as men please and they need to shut the fuck up about it and get their tits slapped, throats rammed with dick, and pussies streched to the max!”
Sounds like it was taken directly out of a porn description. Which is disturbing on two levels. The first obvious one is that he’d think to say that, that he could become that desensitized to women’s pain that even saying that (let alone doing it) would be OK is highly disturbing. Like needs to be in jail for rape disturbing. The second is that it sounds like porn. It’s disturbing that porn would even be described in that manner. That is how porn describes how to treat women. Even in non-violent porn they describe the acts as violent. Even the most vanilla porn puts in violent descriptions because that’s what men now want to hear. It truly makes me feel unsafe as a woman.

@Berryblade & Chloe: Believe it or not, that’s just the tip of the “anal debate” iceberg. When I was young(er) and innocent (i.e., unschooled in porn trends) I thought it would be a grand idea to post to various sex-oriented forums seeking advice on improving my bedroom skills. I chose the most popular sex forums on the internet for this venture and what a regrettably eye-opening experience it was. The degree of sexual entitlement evidenced by 99% of the male posters, I swear, left me just a wee bit psychologically traumatized. It took a long time and immersion in feminist theory to convince myself that this entitlement to have porn sex expressed by the overwhelming majority of men on these forums was not normal.

I can’t tell you how often the “if a man wants it, she should do it, regardless of how degrading, painful, etc. it is” argument was raised. The ideal woman is a “freak”, i.e., open to anything her partner suggests (her feelings, opinions, etc. are irrelevant). If a woman refused to participate in BDSM activities, facials, anal sex, etc., the poor put-upon “victim” was encouraged to break up with his partner, cheat on her, work harder at persuasion, or “teach her a lesson” by performing the sex act without her consent. This so-called advice constituted *the entire thread* every time the question of “she doesn’t want to do this, what do I do” discussions were initiated. The hostility and resentment expressed towards women who refused to turn themselves into amateur porn stars was palpable…an on-going theme. Anal sex was a frequent topic, as you can imagine. The last post I remember reading was a woeful lament from a young man who couldn’t find a woman to have anal sex with him (typically expressed as, “She won’t let me do her in the ass”). One of the posters encouraged him to “Hang in there, someday you’ll find your anal queen.”

Virtually every poster on these forums was a hardcore fan of pornography. It doesn’t take a genius to deduce that the higher the porn consumption, the greater the sexual entitlement of the consumer; not to mention the greater the obsession with porn conventions. I honestly thought porn was a benign “sexual aid” before I began following the discussions on sex forums. Oh how very naive I was. What is most frightening of all is the realization that impressionable young women flock to these sites in droves nowadays, looking for advice on how to become more pornalicious for their boyfriends.

One thing is for certain, I’ll never date another porn user as long as I live.

Yeah I googled that shit after I posted that comment which I really should have done before and then I could have just expressed my disgust at the rest of the commenters there.

Holy shit, I knew young men felt super-duper entitled these days, but I’d honestly no idea what they really thought when they believed no-one else was paying attention to what they were writing. It makes me so fearful for all the young womyn and girls out there who are going to have to try and negotiate their ways through this festering sea of bullshit.

You know…I have something that makes me uncomfortable, especially being a feminist… I feel kind of weird that my husband LOVES me to ejaculate on his face…(female ejaculation…lol) I felt bad for doing it really…but it did get him really excited… It has been troubling me…anyone have anything to say about it negative or positive?

(sorry if it’s TMI…but hell I figure we’re discussing some of the most degrading crap anyway…)

“It has been troubling me…anyone have anything to say about it negative or positive?”
I think it’s different if someone asks to be degraded for their own pleasure. It’s not like you’re asking him to let you do it. Kind of like in BDSM when the person WANTS to be tied up. I’ve had this request too, though the only reason it was face was from oral, and it’s the thought that he could pleasure me enough to get me to do it. So it was more an excitement in my pleasure and the face thing wasn’t important other than it would be a little messy. The reason the man ejaculating on the woman’s face is so problematic is partially because people like to pretend it doesn’t stem from degrading the woman as well as it is the dominant group (men) dehumanizing the subordinate group (women) and getting off on the dehumanizing part. If you ejaculate on him, it doesn’t affect your pleasure one way or another where you ejaculate (since you most likely need some fingers) and it’s highly likely you’re already in a situation where your ejaculate will wind up on his face (he might be giving you oral). When a man ejaculates on a woman’s face generally he has to go through extra trouble (pulling out from the warm wet good place to get to a colder, less pleasurable spot) to do something that doesn’t feel as physically good because the emotional experience of dehumanizing her makes up for it. So I’d say so long as you enjoy ejaculating and he wants that on his face, you should go for it.

@Chloe: If you punch “sex forums” into google, the forum I frequented the most is in the top 5. I guard my privacy fiercely, and so I won’t discuss which forum that is here. (The women’s health forum isn’t 100% misogyny-free, but it’s not that that bad, either.)

A caveat: Don’t enter these forums if you’re triggered by extreme misogyny; I promise the experience will be disturbing, to say the least (it certainly was a few years back and I don’t imagine anything has changed). Oh, and if you want the full experience you’ll have to register and probably be placed on a probationary list until you’ve posted “x” number of times.

Actually, I’ve been thinking about suggesting a foray into internet sex forums as a project for 92. I would pay good money to read her assessment!

I agree with Bluecat Kristina. It’s something for you and your partner to figure out. In the end, it’s your relationship, and we, on the internet, won’t be there at the foot of the bed passing judgement. Because, you know, that would be weird. :)

First and foremost, I’d like to say how much I’ve enjoyed reading your blogs over the past two days. I really wish I would have started reading them in 2009. I can vouch for everything that you’re saying. Unfortunately, I’m not proud of being able to state that, nor do I wish it to be true. After having dated a boy for three years, I met him my freshman year of college, I experienced all of thee above. First, I want to address two factors which make this next story even more shocking. This boy was a virgin when I began dating him, and I’m an educated woman that is a semester away from obtaining her degree at a university of California. I fell victim to these misogynistic porn beliefs without realizing how sick they are. As an 18 year old woman, if you could call me that, I never shaved my pubic hair, nor did I want anal. But by the end of our relationship, I found myself doing those things. I won’t write a miniblog of my sexual encounters here, but everything you’re saying is true. Our youth is poisoned day in and day out by these images of women being depicted as sex objects. In the college culture, feminists are lesbians who aren’t woth a damn, or women who should pay for their own dinner due to their belief system. I once heard a boy state, “women want equality. Please! If women get equality, then that means I get to hit them.” A friend of my ex. What a gentleman. This same boy once said, “if women are getting raped then they might as well enjoy it.” I didn’t date a frat guy. i dated what appeared to be a normal Christian guy who’s mother preached abstinence and was unaware of my miscarriage. Fuck studying Kate Chopin! The modern female awakening is that the new female oppression isn’t treating all women like domesticated unintelligible house slaves, but instead treating them as sex objects. I’ve officially given up on dating and he idea of marriage. I don’t want to have to deal with shaving, waxing or anal sex in my “happily ever after.” Sorry for the typos. Commenting on a cell phone.

Does anyone find it creepy that “mature” males (if only in the physical sense) want their partners genitals to look like that of a prepubescent child? And goodness forbid they have to shave their pubic hair as well. And people wonder why I hate most men.