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[R&F] Different build and research order from Vanilla?

So far I haven't changed my build or research order from Vanilla as I play in R&F games. I'm not rigid about the order -- it can change when map features point the way. But I'm thinking about making some changes.

Has anyone else been playing with this issue or have hit upon a R&F-specific strategy that makes sense. I recognize that some R&F strategies will take advantage of playing as a specific Leader, so please note if your favorite method is really tailored for one Civ over another.

For what it's worth, I currently play Sling, Sling, Sling, Builder, Settler, Science District, Library, Water Mill. Some of this build order is due to playing a lot as Rome, so earlier monuments may need to be a consideration when playing as other Civs. This is only my first city build order. I mix it up much more with later cities, but usually build a caravan first in my second city. As districts become available, I prioritize Science, Commerce, Industry, Harbors, along with aqueducts/baths at some point. I'll try to get one Holy Site and Encampment up if I don't conquer one early. In R&F, I throw a Government Center in there somewhere.

My Civic research order is much more map/inspiration dependent, but I want to become a Classical Republic as soon as possible. I also try to beeline mercenaries so I can upgrade my ranged units cheaply to Crossbows and then Field Cannons.

EDIT: Forgot to say that I do prioritize Ancient Walls once they become available, but that depends a bit on whether good Eurekas lead me to put off Masonry. I haven't gotten burned by this so far on R&F, but I could see where it might be a problem in a map that's heavy with hostile ranged cavalry units nearby.

"Those who control the past, control the future."
-- George Orwell, 1984

Can’t comment on R&F since I play on the iPad or Mac and it’s not out yet. But in vanilla my build order is a lot different from yours. So I’m thinking it’ll depend a lot on play style, level and terrain, probably more than on vanilla vs R&F.

I usually play Emperor and go builder - settler initially. But it depends on what tiles there are to improve, what you get from goodie huts, what envoys you get, are there any barb scouts etc. I do really try to hold off on building the slingers until I have Agoge for example. I don’t build a water mill early unless I have two or more rice / wheat. I sometimes don’t bother with walls. Etc.

But you should probably ignore me and listen to Deity level players if any comment here

I go Builder-Settler if there are three tiles improvable after one tech (since you can only get either AH or Mine before Builder completed, unless start is really production poor) so a combination of three farmables and EITHER mines or pastures

Otherwise Slinger-Builder-Settler. If the improvements at capital take both AH AND Mining.

Sometimes Slinger-Settler if I need an early second city because there are no reasonable improvables at first city (like only jungle tiles and Irrigation resources, we all know the start, we all hate it) and need three improvements in city #2 instead to hit craftmanship in time.

I always try to optimise to minimize Builder idleness (probably a relics from civ 4 times). The only turns it should waste are those moving into rough terrain. If you have to press "skip turn" you build it to soon and were better off getting more scouting info from a Slinger (as well as BW and Archers Eurekas)!

As Germany and Cree I swap Slinger for scout. The Cree scout cause it's amazing, and with Germany because you otherwise waste the turns between unlocking Agoge and CoL, as you are forced to run Discipline and Survey before then.

I'm on King, and I can't cope with barbs unless I build 1-2 Slingers very early, and sometimes an extra Warrior as well. I didn't usually build Monuments in my capital, and I've experimenting building them first or second, I'm still unsure if it's good or not; if I find an early second continent it's amazing, but if not I usually end up wasting some early game inspirations (mainly Foreign Trade and State Workforce). Also, I usually buy my first builder with gold as early as possible, or my first trader if I ended up building the former.

It would help us a lot with understanding your priorities if you post info about the difficulty level you are playing on.

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Good point. I was generally playing on Immortal in Vanilla, but dropped back as I began playing R&F. I have an Emperor game as Nubia going right now and if I feel like I can win easily enough on Emperor, I'll move up Immortal again. I haven't had the time to invest to make the move to Deity so far, but I'd like to play at that level successfully eventually. That's one reason for comparing strategy ideas with other players.

In Vanilla, I did try different build orders, but at least as Rome, I kept coming back to the 3 sling start to get a ranged army that could take down nearby cities early, preferably before walls went up. These formed the base of a ranged army that would be sporting double-attack field cannons before long.

"Those who control the past, control the future."
-- George Orwell, 1984

I still play the builder-settler route. After settler maybe some troops and a district since currently it is very very important to get Magnus ASAP, and a district helps with the eureka.

For research, culturewise getting to the 1st governor title is a must, techwise now I research Masonry with high priority just to use Magnus to chop Pyramid ASAP.

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Yep, Magnus does seem to change priorities potentially. I have found that with an early Science District in the build order I described above, I do pretty well and am a research leader at the same time my army is dominating my starting continent. (Didn't mention, but I usually play standard continent maps. I guess that can affect build order as well.) I recognize that delaying Magnus even this much might be problematic on Deity.

"Those who control the past, control the future."
-- George Orwell, 1984

I'm on King, and I can't cope with barbs unless I build 1-2 Slingers very early, and sometimes an extra Warrior as well. I didn't usually build Monuments in my capital, and I've experimenting building them first or second, I'm still unsure if it's good or not; if I find an early second continent it's amazing, but if not I usually end up wasting some early game inspirations (mainly Foreign Trade and State Workforce). Also, I usually buy my first builder with gold as early as possible, or my first trader if I ended up building the former.

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The barbs are one of the reasons I build 3 slingers. They get worse at higher levels. I sometimes have built a second warrior slightly later, especially if playing as Rome or another Civ where Warriors promote toward their UU. I sometimes have toyed with building an early spear unit, even with Civs where it doesn't lead to their UU, if the Eurekas are favorable and the Horse Barbs are not.

"Those who control the past, control the future."
-- George Orwell, 1984

Another consideration I've wondered if anyone has experimented with would be more early scouts. I usually don't build any but certainly don't mind popping them from goody huts. The huts and meeting CS and Civs, as well as first discoveries of Natural Wonders are now all incentives for better early exploration to get era score up cheaply. Then you can sandbag more major accomplishments (eg. taking neighboring capitals, taking neighboring last cities, making your own religion dominant in the captured holy city of a defeated AI rival) until the Classical era. This could also be good for anyone experimenting with Scotland, as your UU promotes from Scouts, although this requires a long-term investment to take advantage of.

"Those who control the past, control the future."
-- George Orwell, 1984

One thing that i'm thinking about trying is fitting a Scout after the first settler, as they'll probably be very fast to build by then and teh warrior + slingers should be enough to scout towards a second city location.

To all the people going builder-settler, how do you go exploration- and defense-wise? My exp so far is that barbs have been coming in greater numbers, so it feels super greedy to divert the starting warrior to explore with no units doing home defense.

On Emperor or Immortal / continents I often build scout -> scout, then settler -> builder if barbs aren't an immediate threat, and slingers if they are. I think the scouts help with deciding later build order, and the benefits of more huts + meeting CS first are greater than the benefits of getting the archery eureka earlier or promoting a slinger or two. I guess this might not be as good as slingers on Deity, but it seems beneficial for every level below. So far, R&F hasn't changed anything because early scouts are also great for era points, but on the other hand, unless there is a really close neighbor to take out, classical golden ages seem rather meh.

One thing that i'm thinking about trying is fitting a Scout after the first settler, as they'll probably be very fast to build by then and teh warrior + slingers should be enough to scout towards a second city location.

To all the people going builder-settler, how do you go exploration- and defense-wise? My exp so far is that barbs have been coming in greater numbers, so it feels super greedy to divert the starting warrior to explore with no units doing home defense.

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Yes getting a Scout early can be helpful but of course there are always tradeoffs. I’ll build a scout if there aren’t three improvable tiles in the capital. Ideally of course you would get one from a goodie hut.

I don’t worry too much about barb defense early so I go full exploration with the warrior. They can’t kill your units if you haven’t built them yet (insert Eddie Murphy meme). All they usually do is pillage your improvements which doesn’t cost a builder charge. So I send my warrior out for 25 turns or so anyway, until I have my slingers ready to go conquer something. I might bring him back to escort my setter if necessary.

I don’t worry too much about barb defense early so I go full exploration with the warrior. They can’t kill your units if you haven’t built them yet (insert Eddie Murphy meme). All they usually do is pillage your improvements which doesn’t cost a builder charge. So I send my warrior out for 25 turns or so anyway, until I have my slingers ready to go conquer something. I might bring him back to escort my setter if necessary.

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That... actually blew my mind a little Guess I was so used to fight the barbs off I never thought to let them be at all

There's an issue though, in that I think it's still risky running early trade routes (specially from your 2nd city) with camps still active around your capital... Am I worrying too much, am I right, or am I simply not supposed to be running routes this early?

Letting barbs have their way for awhile is a nifty idea, but you can only have one slinger in a city, and I've found newly created slingers get smashed by barbs the turn after moving out of the city, sometimes before they can even be used. Unless you keep barbs at least a little at bay, slingers are vulnerable.

I agree somewhat with letting the Barbs have their way, but only to a limited extent. Perhaps more important, I prioritize getting the Eurekas from having a slinger kill a barb, capturing a barb settlement and killing three barbs. I also don't mind letting my units pick up some experience by taking out nearby Barbs before they can harass my districts, builders or settlers. But I have had maps with swarming barbs that definitely set back an otherwise good start position.

"Those who control the past, control the future."
-- George Orwell, 1984

That... actually blew my mind a little Guess I was so used to fight the barbs off I never thought to let them be at all

There's an issue though, in that I think it's still risky running early trade routes (specially from your 2nd city) with camps still active around your capital... Am I worrying too much, am I right, or am I simply not supposed to be running routes this early?

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I agree - it’s maybe not as simple as I might have implied. It depends on terrain and timing of things too. If the barbs come before you’ve got your 3 improvement eureka then you’re in trouble and you do have to fight them. If terrain is good (wooded hill across river with easy retreat to the city) I might use slingers but if flat terrain and/or horse barbs then I’ll prefer warriors.

Yes they will mess up an early trade route of course. Personally I’m not usually in a rush to get that trader out since I usually go campus first in the first few cities (maybe one encampment). I’m ok with delaying the boost to commercial hubs a little bit if there are a lot of barbs around. There are plenty of techs to work on on the bottom of the tree without rushing to commercial hubs. In my opinion of course. There are lots of ways to play

This was mentioned elsewhere, but having tried it, its just a ridiculously effective start as Korea because of their unique, half-price district:
Place capital.
Research AH/Archery in case there's an aggressive civ nearby.
Build scout and then 3-4 Slingers while city pop is growing. Upgrade to archers as needed for defense/barbs.
1-2 builders, Seowon district, settler for 2nd city
Get Magnus as first governor.
Early Empire should be done by now. Set policy for +50% settlers
Build government district
Get Magnus promotion that leaves population intact w building settlers
Chop a couple settlers but don't settle cities until....
...Build Ancestral Hall. Now every city you settle gets a free worker. Use worker in each new city to chop a Seowon and improve 1 or 2 tiles.
Start chopping/spamming settlers in capital.
Rinse and repeat the above w each new settler.

By ~turn 100 you'll have not only 9-10 cities, but each of them will already have a district in them and have tiles improved for growth/production. You'll be at 90-100 science per turn with Korea and be so far ahead of the AI in this (at any level), that you can then just decide how you want to win the game.

I don't think building three slingers without the Agoge policy card is very efficient. Also, an early scout is better at getting era score and spot good city locations and barb camps.

If you want an early slinger for the eureka, why not go scout - slinger - worker - settler - switch to Agoge - build one more slinger per city. Then you saved hammers, have a second city, 3 improved tiles and 3 slingers. Selling your first early luxury is also an option to rushbuy a 2nd worker or a trader. Some people even go scout - settler. I still think worker is better because early Agoge is super useful.

In current version, if you don't object to the overflow exploit, you can delay the research of Archery (obsolete slingers) and Feudalism (obsolete Agoge).
Now maybe the fastest way to build everything is somewhat "builders chase Magnus" - send Magnus to one city, builders chop, send him to the next city, repeat.
But how, directly chopping to finish districts or buildings, with no modifiers? The more effective way to do it is, change city project to slingers (cost 35 prod, no upkeep) for each chop that provides >70 prod. Assume you can get 80 prod from a directly chop, if you do like this with Agoge (+50% prod for slingers), you get 120-35=85 prod, and a free slinger. Because of Magnus, the condition of >70 prod is very easy to achieve - at least 5 civics or 7 techs have been completed. Of course, you can use warriors (cost 40 prod) instead, but the lower the cost, the higher the profit ( profit formula: chop value * modifier - unit cost ). Comparing to the limes-walls overflow, you can only use once for each city (you can't sell walls), but for units you can do it many times in one turn.

Personally, I think this overflow mechanism has totally broken down in R&F.

Personally, I think this overflow mechanism has totally broken down in R&F.

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I agree, As Vicky Magnus galley/quad works well, and if Harald this is just crazy at 250%

As Vicky, IF I am on a river mouth with 2 sea resources I *must* start scout and build an early galley because getting that classic/medingolden age double is worth it.

Slinger, slinger, slinger seems extreme but maybe sometimes on deity depending on location. Getting at least a builder in means you can build the slingers faster amd with Agoge a lot faster. Only build 3 to start if you must.

Getting to the government district early is very important if going for warlords throne as lily said, means an early building.