Hedge, You really tempt me sometimes. I did a cartoon the other day which I decided not to post. It featured a person playing a guitar with one string. In another thread you quipped "Paging John Kogas". I agree you could learn from John. I'm not reffering to technique, though I'm sure he could school you in that. What I'm reffering to is his eloquence. He is respected here not only for his technical ability but for his ability to effectively convey the truth of his expierience in a meaningful way. If I'm correct John studied for 20 years in a variety of styles before fully embracing his current methodology. So... you've found the grail in a fraction of the time he did. Good for you. The difference between you and Kogas as I see it is that his expression is that of a seasoned practitioner and yours is tinged with an intollerant, contemptuous zelotry that is as distasteful in the arts as it is in any venue. If today you met the Kogas from 20 years ago you would have nothing but contempt for what he held to be both true and important. And now you want to put him on a pedistal because he's got "Game"?. In part your tone is hard to take because you are where you are in your life. You won't understand that because of where you are in your life. Stuff is either "the Sh!t" or it's crap. You are striving, chasing after the wind. You think that because of your Resistant training, sportive methodology, aliveness and game, that you are somehow different, better or more special than the pimply faced 12 year old Mcdojoist. You are not. The difference between many people here and yourself is that you seem to only able to admire those "with game" where as many people here can respect anyone in "the Game".

I must admit that I would have no chance if I was to wrestle against a competitive wrestler, although grounwork is a part of our curriculum.

Also against a judoka I don't have much say in the clinch (I do on the ground [where I sooner or later find myself when I train with judoka] because they are kind enough to be "addicted" to their rules )

Additionally my kick-and-punch game isn't much worth against a half decent thai boxer either, come to think of it.

But in all three distances I figure I have an above average chance against an untrained agressor, not that I plan to confront one, but that's what I believe karate to originally have been designed against (I could be wrong of course, go ahead and sue me )

Quote:Are you allowed to 'soften your targets' before/during twisting them like gumby? no? oh...that must be because you are doing a sport during a competition-what we usually talk about in the Karate forum is self-defense.

We kinda have a sport where you can hit them first too. It's called MMA.

But that's not even the point. I'm responding to a specific list of techniques that are claimed to be "in" the goju ryu syllabus.

I'm beggining to think if a Goju-ryu-karateka claimed his punch could kill a bear, he would deflect the inevitable criticism by claiming "Yeah, but we soften the creature up with an RPG-7 shoulder mounted grenade launcher first. You can't do that in sport bear wrestling!"

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What 'ground fighting' is here, is something different from sliding around on each other in tights and grunting.

And the inevitable implied gay joke is partial-birth aborted.

Quote: And by the way, are you the one with the patent rights on grappling techniques?

Helio actually has them squirreled away in a little vault. He sent them to a young albert einstein, then working as a swiss patent clerk, in the twenties. His ability to rename things to suit himself would later inspire the german jew's famed theory of general relativity.

Quote:how do you 'have' them? and do you 'collect 'em all' ?

We "have" them because we actually compete in grappling tournaments. The technique belongs to the person who can make it work. You claim you "have" them, but you seem to not be able to beat even a single BJJ white belt in the sport grappling world.

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The problem with that logic is that it can be reversed for an equal and opposite statement such as: "Trying to use ground grappling as a basis for a standup art, will lead to 'crud-te'".

Actually, that's very true. If you do that, you get Royce's latest book, which appears to be a time warp back to 1993, with his silly sidekicks and what not. That's why most BJJers know our limits and crosstrain our standup.

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c'mon..this is an old argument, sport vs self-defense is like comparing... well, it's like comparing wrestling to Goju ground fighting. {expects a counter-retaliation, and yawns}

"Wrestling is indeed better for groundfighting than Goju." Moving pawn forward, your move. I expect mate in less than eight.

I have been getting punked,owned [censored] slapped, whatever you trendy kids like to call it these days, by all manner of BJJ players.

See I just started a few months ago. I'm getting tapped by kids,girls, men that I outweigh by 80 lbs.

Then not to long ago I start to roll with this fellow about my size. He too is a white belt, however he has about 8 months more experience than I. We start from the knees. I am determined not to lose again.

Funny enough, from the clinch, without leaving our knees, I submit him

The instructor and some seniors say it was an "Americana". I thought I just took a move I knew well from Kata Wansu.

The grappling is there in Karate (at least in mine). We can be as good at it as anyone. And Hedge, I can make that claim because I beat a BJJ white belt

Advanced Karate-ka "have them" (the techniques), and it sounds to me like we are using them "alive".

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Quote:But that's not even the point. I'm responding to a specific list of techniques that are claimed to be "in" the goju ryu syllabus.

. . .

Would it be better, then, if instead of listing "single leg takedown," the phrase "scoop and imbalance" or somesuch were substituted? If so, I'd be rather interested in seeing the reasoning behind such an answer.

Most karate styles contain grappling, in particular in a two-person-standing scenario. of course, there is technique workable on the ground, it only needs to be properly trained. Why you find this fact infuriating, and why you insist karate does not "have" such techniques as were listed by Sanchin31 is beyond me.

Of course, I am all tied up in the classical mess, so I must be too ignorant to see the TRUTH.

Hmm, I don't see why everyone's so hard on hedge... I don't think I've seen him do to much 'Drive by" posting. He always seems to give a solid debate and I think I have yet to see a post by him that dosn't make my chuckle somewhat... *shrug* Anyways, thanks for the heads up about the ammount of groundfighting in Okinawin styles cxt. Just always associated it with BJJ etc :P

Quote:I'm beggining to think if a Goju-ryu-karateka claimed his punch could kill a bear, he would deflect the inevitable criticism by claiming "Yeah, but we soften the creature up with an RPG-7 shoulder mounted grenade launcher first. You can't do that in sport bear wrestling!"

lol ...now thats funny. and sorry for the cheap 'boys in tights' joke, I didn't mean to hit home any ugly feelings. Hedge - I'm baffled by your inability to accept that there may be answers to ground fighting that are either named differently, or are practiced differently. You sound like a style snob.

with that statement...you just made the case for Goju incorporating groundfighting into its curriculum. maybe instead of crosstraining, you could save money and incorporate some karate into your syllabus...or not...since competition is your goal.

now can people have a discussion on Goju groundfighting without being snobbed from the sport-side...I doubt it. check.