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cold fjord writes "The Detroit News reports, 'A government report finds that major automakers are keeping information about where drivers have been — collected from onboard navigation systems — for varying lengths of time. Owners of those cars can't demand that the information be destroyed. And, says the U.S. senator requesting the investigation, that raises questions about driver privacy. The Government Accountability Office in a report released Monday found major automakers have differing policies about how much data they collect and how long they keep it. Automakers collect location data in order to provide drivers with real-time traffic information, to help find the nearest gas station or restaurant, and to provide emergency roadside assistance and stolen vehicle tracking. But, the report found, "If companies retained data, they did not allow consumers to request that their data be deleted, which is a recommended practice."'"

Uh what? The whole point behind a block heater is to reduce the initial startup cost for the car/truck. They guzzle heavily when under -6C(20f) until the intake manifold warms up, to lower the amount of time required to heat the cabin of the vehicle. And prevent damage to the engine itself, since the vast majority of vehicles don't pump oil before starting, increasing viscosity even a small amount reduces wear.

And the above has been known for decades. As a fun point, having too rich a mixture of antifreeze will corrode the aluminum, and eat the gaskets between various manifolds. Having it too weak, will lead to popped frost plugs(if you're lucky), and if you're unlucky broken heads, cracked blocks, or broken manifolds. I'll toss in one other thing, back when I was an apprentice in the 90's, a car came in that "wouldn't start" so said the customer. The antifreeze mixture had frozen(too old), and separated the intake manifold from the head. It had stripped all the bolts, warped the head, and broke the manifold. It was just shy of $4200 in repairs.

"And prevent damage to the engine itself, since the vast majority of vehicles don't pump oil before starting, increasing viscosity even a small amount reduces wear."

I am aware of what they are good for. I wrote that they were rarely "needed". It was my understanding that the whole context of this was the big "cold snap". And unless the weather is very cold, research I read a long time ago, when engines did not last as long as they do now, said that the cost of using a block heater is probably greater than the costs associated with the wear on engines that otherwise occurs. For a normal automobile, that is.

I am aware of what they are good for. I wrote that they were rarely "needed"....

Hardly "rarely needed" and "within the current coldsnap" either, if you live somewhere, where the weather gets below -10C(14F), a block heater will help you immensely. Especially with the self-programmable timers, for a normal auto.

I also stated that you needed to have the "right" amount of antifreeze in your coolant....

No it's not the "right amount" it's the proper type, and the proper mixture, and corrosive state of the antifreeze, not to mention the right level. Which is double true for closed loop systems.

I don't know if he's arguing with you but I will. The part you blockquoted from him is absolutely wrong. The reason you use a block heater is to reduce the viscosity of the oil because when it's really damned cold outside, oils tend to turn into jelly and won't pump. You heat it up to ensure it is runny enough to move through the system. The amount of heat soaked into the block does in a small way help with cold starting but that isn't the primary purpose for a block heater. It's to reduce oil viscosit

I "argue" with you because that's what you like to do obviously. You argue in every thread on this website so I'm just giving you entertainment fodder. I was just pointing out the invalidity of the part you blockquoted. I'm not even sure what your OP was. The way this website hides posts annoys me.

The amount of heat soaked into the block does in a small way help with cold starting but that isn't the primary purpose for a block heater.

Eh? How did you decide this? A block heater absolutely helps with starting, and by itself, doesn't warm the oil all that much. If it's cold enough for the oil to be a problem, you add an oil pan heater.

. ..and also to keep the coolant liquefied.

No, no, no. The coolant has to take care of itself. The block heater is only for the engine block, not for the radiator. If the coolant mixture isn't appropriate for the temperature, you'll have problems with or without a block heater.

I guess I've not been clear enough: There's coolant outside the engine block that can't freeze either, and isn't heated. Plus, you *really* don't want to lose an engine because you forgot to plug in the heaters. So, you don't prevent the coolant freezing by adding a heater, you prevent the coolant freezing by having the appropriate coolant mixture.

Oh I decided that because I maintain hydraulic skids bigger than most anyone on this website has ever seen. Most of the equipment I work on is one-of-a-kind or the largest in it's category. See here. [wikipedia.org]

My '63 Olds would start right up in any weather (including -45F Montana winters), but if it hadn't been plugged in, it took forever to get the glass defogged (not so with the block heater running, which actually got the entire interior of the car warm too -- helluva lot nicer than holding onto a steering wheel that's also at -45. It would even melt the ice off the windshield.)

You're a mechanic and this is what you believe? Higher viscosity oils do cushion parts during startup but that has nothing to do with a block heater or it's function. Block heaters do 2 primary things: reduce viscosity enough so that the oil pump can actually pump it because in extreme cold, oil turns into jelly and to keep the antifreeze from freezing. Heating of the manifold and all that other jazz you mention applies to old ass carbureted cars. The only part of a modern intake that is heated is the t

Sounds like you are in a cold part of the world. A 50/50 mixture of Ethylene glycol and water is good down to -30F/-34.4C. 75/25 is good down to -68F/-55C.

Though block heaters are common in very cold parts, not many cars are sold with them. Only vehicle we had with a block heater was a 1983 Chevy K5 blazer. They are however almost universally common on diesel engines. The only thing is they suck a lot of power around 1500W and I have seen a few trucks burnt to the ground from faulty heater wiring. The salt

I predicted when they announced it a few years ago that someone will hack onstar (or be a disgruntled employee) and disable a few hundred thousand cars just because they can.I am amazed that it hasn't happened yet.

I personally would just like the source code of the hack and a short-reach transmitter, to shut down the people talking on the phone or cruising in the left lane.

at some point, I'll have to try a linux gps map and see if its as good as the commercial ones. would be nice to have a fully open source gps system in my car

There is GpsDrive [gpsdrive.de] and navit [navit-project.org] for navigation engines and UIs. I have played around with navit some on a raspberry pi and you can load maps from Open Street Map [openstreetmap.org] into it. I would suggest checking OSM for some locations you are familiar with to get a better feel for the accuracy of open source maps. In my experience it depends on the the users in a given are, if they are like myself they will map out almost everything they can, if there aren't many users or ones who aren't obsessive things might not be as up to

They can demand all they want, but that won't change a thing. There's only one way to fight this: Buyers chosing to remove the cell network interfaces from the car...and the RFID tags on the tires.. and the NARC blackboxes...

A better question, why isn't the data automatically destroyed? I can understand storing it for a certain amount of time for the scenario where one's car is stolen while the owner is on vacation... two weeks would probably cover 99% of users and people who expect to be gone for months on end should have an opt-in method for longer storage. But most of the data should be discarded automatically and frequently.

And the GAO is dutifully NOT SAYING SQUAT about which car companies do this sort of thing.

They speak of 10 companies they interviewed, and never once indicate which companies are a) collecting this data, and b) retaining it.Way to go, GAO, so nice to know you are on our side.

If you get your traffic data via any one-way broadcast method, you are probably safe. But if your car offers "luxury" nav systems with on-line weather, and search capabilities, it has to have some transmitter capabilities (built in cel

But sooner or later, companies are going to stop buying that information, because damn few of them have the skilz toactually utilize the data in any real way.

What good does it do for Shell Oil, Bridgestone tires, or Jiffy Lube to know where I go, and what I drive? Unless theystart personally sending me printed mail, I never see their advertising unless I drive by it.

Google has the greatest scam going. While they insist they don't sell my info to other companies, but rathersimply use it to send me ads on b

You have no friggen idea what you're talking about. This information is money in the bank. 10 years ago a salesman would call you at work and suggest you buy their printers. They had no idea who you were, if you could make purchases on behalf of your company and no idea if you would be interested. Companies had armies of salesman that would just canvas whole area codes looking for customers.

Now, when they want to call Business A, they know nearly everyone who works there... they can cross reference that aga

You're basically talking to a con artist that knows you better than your own mother and you think he's a stranger. You're at a complete disadvantage in the negotiation and have no idea.

I was born in the morning, son, but not THIS morning.

Nope. Doesn't happen. Maybe in some salesman's wet dream. Not in real life.Cold calling salesmen men get a very courteous but firm bums rush, by our very junior grade phone staff. You see, even a high school educated 20 year old sees right through all that razzel dazzel, before the salesman can even get to someone with purchase authority. Even when someone manages to get the direct number of someone on staff, they get the courteous good bye, as soon as th

Every kid coming out of Junior High understands these things already (Or will by the time they have money).The major portion of the elderly noobs new to the internet have already been bitten once if they were gullible, they are no longer that gullible.

Its getting harder and harder to find people so gullible as they were in the past. Still a large number out there, but shrinking every day.

Because the last thing the Federal government cares about is the privacy of its citizens.

Of course they don't. Because they can demand this information from them and use it themselves.

"Well, we couldn't get a warrant to install a GPS tracker, but since your Escalade had a GPS/OnStar, we'll just ask GM for all of your travel history. Gee, it says here you were in an area which is known to have drug dealers and prostitutes".

Much like the Patriot Act rendered cloud-computing to be a security problem for anybody not in the US but using a US based service, the internet of things will essentially cause all of your information to become the property of a company, and readily accessible to the US government.

I can't possibly put enough layers of tin-foil on to make me feel any better about this stuff. Because we're hurtling towards the dystopian future some of us have been fearing for years.

Only we seem to be voluntarily providing the companies with this stuff in return for shiny baubles.

Recommended practices are easier to pass than law. Industry is okay with them because they can ignore them; Congress, agencies, or industry groups can pass them and pretend to be doing something. Occasionally they're even a little bit helpful.

Congress also does less with each passing year because, as it turns out, doing things in politics means people can paint you as against something, so the safest course of action for most politicians is to do nothing.

Full stop. Monetization of people, saving their data without their express, signed consent (after they have been acutely made aware -- no EULA click through counts) should be illegal with stiff penalties that include actual prison time. My data is mine. If you want it and want to make money from it, let me know and pay me. I think 50% of all profits you make from my data is beyond fair. Anything less is criminal.

Getting a signature on a piece of paper is a bit impractical in the internet age, don't you think?

Would this prevent sites from counting how many visiters their site received? How about the number of visiters using Comcast? How about the number of visiters using Comcast in Dallas? The number of visiters with IP 142.14.8.63?

Would this mean that Amazon's fraud team would have to shut down, because they look for suspicious pattens of activity? For that matter, would credit card companies be able to do fraud an

What if the driver becomes involved in a lawsuit or is accused of a crime? Could the automakers be forced to provide the data? Or, if the automaker had reason to suspect the information may be subpoenaed would they have to retain the data or risk legal sanctions? A formal destruction policy may help in the latter case at least.

I am a simple cheapskate and could not bear to part with 2000$ for a car-nav system that will be woefully out of date in 2 years and the car maker would be demanding 900$ for a map update, and the user interface might have been usable at some point in the design before the bean counters and marketers muscled in looking for brand differentiation and cool and oomph factor. So I have a cheap Garmin with a suction cup holder next to shifter.

Most people look at it and ask my why or at least raise an eye brow. Now I can simply say, "NSA". And they will nod understandingly and my mojo as the rebel who defies the draconian government will go up one notch.

Let me just address your points out of order, because it makes the most sense to do so.

the device itself does not have or need network connectivity.

That is orthogonal to this issue. Also, that is false, as I will show momentarily.

When you update the maps for your basic GPS, again, you're only transferring files to the device

The prior point is false because this point is false. The updater software can also take files off of the device. And as the device is typically a Windows Mobile device, it will have other channels for debugging as well, including but not limited to USB PAN.

What about devices which update FROM an SD card or USB stick? It's still secure.

Those devices might be the bulk of the market in China, but they're the minority here in the USA, where the dominant GPS units all have updater applications. You can get those devices here, but odds are against you ever getting good map data, let alone an update with any such.

Under long standing case law, information about you is not your data. e.g., the list of phone numbers you called are the business records of the phone company. So the police don't need a warrant to get it, they just have to ask the phone company which has no interest in your privacy.

It's almost certainly going to be the same in this case. The records the car company keeps are their records, including the tracking data. If the cops want to know where you've been, all they have to do is ask the car compan

I was in a meeting today with a state DOT official who showed how his department buys monthly GPS tracking data on all traffic in the state, combined from companies including TomTom, Garmin, AT&T, etc. by a private company and processed by the University of Maryland. He was able to use it to prioritize road improvements and later show the benefits of those improvements. The data he had (average speeds for small stretches of road at hourly intervals) was quite granular and powerful for what he was doing but innocuous from a privacy perspective. The question should be, who else are these companies selling the data to and in what form?

When my Tesla was delivered in 2012, I signed a "Data Usage Agreement" that essentially said that they would be collecting all of my data, all of the time, and using it for whatever they wanted (sort of).

I don't know what would have happened if I refused to sign that particular document, as and far as I know, every Tesla owner signed it.

Why? Because I can (for now) at least make one choice in my life where I can protect my privacy just a little.

These companies collecting data are like the scorpion riding on the back of the animal crossing the river and can't help but sting their purveyor and drown as a result. These companies just can't help themselves but spy on you if it will make a buck - especially if the government will pay them for it.

Very true. I was meaning the realtime tracking data, not the crap stored in the ECM/TCM, where car makers do a scan to check for tunes or modifications and if anything is found, put the vehicle on the "warranty is DEAD" list that goes to all dealers.

Newer cars, it is the same thing like jailbreaking iPhones if one wants a custom tune. Miss one gotcha or signature check, and the ECM will just refuse to run, and when the vehicle is taken to the dealer for a reflash, from there on out, all repairs are owner

Fords don't have a bad mechanism either. They use one's cellphone for sending vehicle health reports and other items. So, instead of checking the forums for the antenna (or antennas) to disconnect, just disable Bluetooth on your phone, or just don't pair your phone up with the Ford console.

that reminded me of a time when I bought my last used car. I had relocated to a new state, sold my old car and needed a new one, somewhat soon (to stop paying for a rental car). I found a reasonable car at a dealership and we haggled on the price. we sat down and the salesman tried to get me to buy all kinds of useless stuff ('undercoating', etc). I didn't need any of it.

finally, he presents a box, almost like a small ring or jewelry box. it had keys in it for the 'alarm/security' system. I told him I

Hello. This is OnStar. We notice by our tracking system that your mileage has improved We are concerned because the sensors indicate that you are carrying about 180lbs less weight since your recent stop by the river. Did you leave someone behind?

When Tony Soprano had the Onstar and nav system ripped out of his new Escalade, who knew he was smarter than the NSA?

I remember Bruce Willis saying in an interview that before he decided to play a hitman in "The Whole 9 Yards" he went to visit some Mafia hitmen in Prison. They were thrilled to be consulted and quite a few of the things he said, or the mannerisms he picked up were in fact from the hit men.

It's funny because sometimes writers just make stuff up. Watch the writer's commentary from "The Thomas Crown Affair" and you'll find out much of the museum heist stuff was just to make a good show.

Back in 1980s some do-gooders who want to punish those that frequent pron stores would note the license numbers of their cars, go to DMV to get address. Then send a letter with idea it is the wife that will open and read the letter about where their husband was at.

Today they'll use location data to see if you're part of anything those in political power oppose. If you are you'll be on the IRS audit list, the 'pull out of line' TSA list (if not on the no-fly list), and the 'pre-approval always denied' healthcare list. Why should anyone worry if you have nothing to hide?