Mahamudra is the union of emptiness and bliss, and as Tsongkhapa explained very clearly the emptiness refered to is that of the Madhyamaka view; this is not the view of emptiness refered to in Dzogchen.

and he continues ...

Many schools have terms and propositions which are very similar to those of Dzogchen, and this has led to some confusion when this label has been applied to other systems.

Sönam

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -

Mahamudra is the union of emptiness and bliss, and as Tsongkhapa explained very clearly the emptiness refered to is that of the Madhyamaka view; this is not the view of emptiness refered to in Dzogchen.

and he continues ...

Many schools have terms and propositions which are very similar to those of Dzogchen, and this has led to some confusion when this label has been applied to other systems.

Is there a clear and quite simple way to explain the difference between Dzogchen and Mahamudra ?

M.L.

It very much depends on what Mahamudra you are talking about. According to the Kagyu's there are sutra Mahamudra, tantra Mahamudra and essence Mahamudra. According to most masters essence Mahamudra corresponds very well withe the Dzogchen Semde.

If you want to get a good perspective the Tsele Natsok Rangdrols text "Heart of the matter" clearly shows the main points.

So the difference mainly depend on the teachers perspective, if it is wide or narrow.

/magnus

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

Mahamudra is the union of emptiness and bliss, and as Tsongkhapa explained very clearly the emptiness refered to is that of the Madhyamaka view; this is not the view of emptiness refered to in Dzogchen.

and he continues ...

Many schools have terms and propositions which are very similar to those of Dzogchen, and this has led to some confusion when this label has been applied to other systems.

Sönam

This differences between emptiness and emptiness is only true within the Bon school itself. Also, Mahmudra defined as inseparable bliss and emptiness is only true according to tantra Mahamudra (at least in the Kagyu tradition).

The heart of the matter is if the 9 Yanas lead to enlightenment or not.

/magnus

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

Lopon Tenzin Namdak also says that as Semde is the aspect of Dzogchen that most stresses emptiness it is similar to Mahamudra.

Sönam

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -

Semde stresses mind/awareness and Longde stresses emptiness. Dzogchen is the pinnacle in Nyingma and Bön, but not in Kagyu, Sakya and Gelug. Also Mahamudra has different sets of teachings and interpretations, so there's more to keep in mind when comparing them.

"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

I will read Tsele Natsok Rangdrols text "Heart of the matter", this books seems a great source.

They call Dzogchen the pinnacle of all yanas and this makes me feel like Mahamudra was a step below it. So what is missing in Mahamudra to make it complete, I wonder.

M.L.

Tsele Natsok Rangdrol's point of view is that the key-points in Madyamikha, Mahamudra and Dzogchen all point directly to the natural state. So you will benefit by receiving teachings in all these traditions. This is the style of the yogis. However, the most important thing if you want to gain stability in the natural state in this life is to find a qualified teacher. Without that there is no hope since the approach is beyond anything you can read or grasp with your mind. Anyway, there are some instructions that exist only in the Dzogchen tradition like Tögal. Some teachers, like Karma Chagme, teach a unified approach of Mahamudra and Dzogchen where the Mahamudra instructions are to gain a gradual confidence in the natural state because that is easier for most, the Dzogchen approach is more sudden and so more difficult for most persons. Then add the Dzogchen instructions of Tögal once you attained some stability. There exist several commentaries on the various text by Karma Chagme called "The union of Mahamudra and Dzogchen" by Chökyi Nyima Rinpoche, Thrangu Rinpoche, Gyatrul Rinpoche and Khenpo Karthar Rinpoche . This style of teaching is common both in the Kagyu tradition and the Palyul Nyingma.

/magnus

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

Thank you, Astus, for your answer. It`s good to see that there are Buddhist teachings in Hungary nowadays ( I spent some time in European eastern countries during the communist regime ).

`heart` wrote:``However, the most important thing if you want to gain stability in the natural state in this life is to find a qualified teacher. Without that there is no hope since the approach is beyond anything you can read or grasp with your mind. ``

Guess that one of the main differences would be that Mahamudra is rooted on TantraandDzogchen is not based on Tantra.

Tantra is about a maximum of 16 livesDzogchen is obtainable in 1 live and the real shortcut

Dzogchen has Kuntu Zangpo (Samantabadhra) as the Adi BuddhaMahamudra has Dorje Chang (Vajra Dhara) as the Adi Buddha.

Further is Dzogchen proved by the accomplishing of the rainbow body

Best wishes with your practice

RegardsKalden Yungdrung

Ganges Mahamoudra is not based on Tantra, it is the way as well as the fruit, and the ultimate appears simultanely with the relative.

Sönam

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -

Both "Great Perfection" and "Great Seal" are, ultimately, descriptions of the Ultimate State of Realization. As such, they're equivalent, though the focus is a bit different. We could say this is in relation to the "Fruit."

From the point of view of the "Path," these two traditions are different, though there are similarities. A skillful teacher can weave them together, without losing the meaning, and without confusing the student in his or her "practice." But there are methods specific to Dzokchen which are not found in Mahamudra, it's true.

From the point of view of the "Ground," or foundation, descriptions and explanations differ a bit. Mahamudra focuses quite a bit on the coexistent "Emptiness/Appearance," or "Emptiness/Bliss." "Dzokchen" focuses on "awareness" and how it differs from "mind," as well as on purity and spontanaity.

As for the Ganges Mahamudra of Tilopa, it is one of the most famous Dohas of the Mahamudra Siddha tradition.

May any merit generated by on-line discussionBe dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.

Nangwa wroteThis is completely untrue.Dzogchen is most definitely based on tantra.The Dzogchen scriptural bases are "tantras" afterall.

Hello Nangwa

Thanks for your reply.

Dzogchen in Kagnying from Nepal, the only Kagyu-Nyingma monastery in the world i guess proclaims that Mahamudra and Dzogchen are the same.

Can assure you dear Nangwa that in Bon this is not the case that Dzogchen is/must be special based on Tantra.But we also know the gradual way in Bon and that would be: Sutra - Tantra - Dzogchen.This is the method for the lower and middle level of understanding persons, but there are also others with great karma from previous lives etc. who can follow Dzogchen very easy without a stepping stone or gradual way method.Dzogchen was a long time therefore more secret then the Tantra education / techings. We know in Dzogchen for a long time the Master - student etc. relation because the importance of secrecy. The reason is that even the Tantrists cannot follow easy Dzogchen and so is Dzogchen self protected by the Master who has only 1 student. They changed recently this relationship because out of fear that Dzogchen could disappear.

So there are realy persons who do or practice only Dzogchen without that this is based on Tantra, like myself.Dzogchen is difficult to understand for non-Dzogchen practitioners, because Dzogchen is a non-dual awareness which does not need a Yidam , outer objects, bliss, Yab-yum and Kama Sutra to make progress.

The only thing we always are trying, is to be in our Natural State and to be (self)aware of this state.Further do we the light yogas and the dark retreat yoga to make progress regarding resting in our Natural State, which shows to us the two ways of experiencing the inner and outer ways of seeing or to be aware of our Natural State or not.

So we/i have non-Tantric things in our/my Dzogchen practice.Do i practice Tantra?Yes i do, but then i do not practice Dzogchen

Best wishes with your praxisKalden Yungdrung

THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNEDIF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGEHE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MANWHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD

Thanks for the reply.Yes i know that teaching from Tilo to Naro done in India but that this will be Ganga Mahamudra was for me new. Well then we have also Himalaya Mahamudra like from Nepal (Ka-nying) may be?http://www.shedrub.org/page.php?page=lineage