That's kind of exactly what Varian cited when he officially declared war on the Horde. All of these backstabbings happened while the factions were supposedly at "peace" -- Varian had enough, and made "battle" official.

I didn't say he wasn't justified.

So when did WW2 start for the US? When their Fleet in Pearl Habor was attacked or when they exchanged the angry "No U!"-Letters with Japan?

So when did WW2 start for the US? When their Fleet in Pearl Habor was attacked or when they exchanged the angry "No U!"-Letters with Japan?

Faulty comparison (that's being kind) aside, it's irrelevant. The Horde and Alliance have been in a state of cold war since vanilla, and these skirmishes have been present since day one. It wasn't escalated to "official war" until Varian directly assaulted and tried to kill the leader of the Horde, and made his "disband your treacherous kingdom of murderers and thieves" manifesto crystal clear for the world to see. That is treated in-verse as the point of clear reference for straight up faction war. None of what you cited is.

It's that simple, whether you think it's fair or not. I can definitely see where Varian's coming from, personally. He has a very legitimate gripe with the Horde, and was fairly justified in making the unofficial official. But make no mistake: kicking it into full throttle was on his head, right until he retracted it and signed a truce with Thrall.

On another note, what John Doe the Forsaken says and does is not equal in weight and consequence to what Varian Wrynn the military leader of the Alliance says and does.

Faulty comparison (that's being kind) aside, it's irrelevant. The Horde and Alliance have been in a state of cold war since vanilla, and these skirmishes have been present since day one. It wasn't escalated to "official war" until Varian directly assaulted and tried to kill the leader of the Horde, and made his "disband your treacherous kingdom of murderers and thieves" manifesto crystal clear for the world to see. That is treated in-verse as the point of clear reference for straight up faction war. None of what you cited is.

It's that simple, whether you think it's fair or not.

Also, what John Doe the Forsaken says and does is not equal in weight and consequence to what Varian Wrynn the military leader of the Alliance says and does.

Interesting worldview. So as long as only your underlings attack and no official ever receives anything like a declaration of war you are not at war. So if you kill off the enemy leadership in the first strike you will never get the letter (since they have no time to write it) and it will never be a war - you can invade anything you want, kill anyone you like and it will not count as war. Why did no country in the real world ever think of that? It is all so obvious!

And the Cold war was a "cold war" because the Commies and the US fought by proxy - they never engaged each other directly. Horde and Alliance on the other hand do fight each other directly - thus it is a real war, not a cold one.

And the Cold war was a "cold war" because the Commies and the US fought by proxy - they never engaged each other directly. Horde and Alliance on the other hand do fight each other directly - thus it is a real war, not a cold one.

Not true, it has always been by proxy, there isn't any "Horde vs Alliance" battleground. This is factual lore, like Zaelsino said.

Yeah but after they are done with that I honestly did not expect Cenarius to play nice with the Orcs, not after all what they did to his beloved land, I just find it odd, but blizzard decided he would be fine doing nothing, even tough it is strange given his personality from wc3.

your right, it does not make sence, not at all, i mean Malfurion is druid, and when the hordes are still burning and rapeing ashenvale, he and Cenarius is like. Oh ragnarus died, time to stand and do nothing. He did not help in wolfheart for he was busy with the alliance leaders, but what now, the war aginst Ragnarus and DeathWing is done, thrall got all the glory while he stands and look at a tree in a fireland.
That is something i really hope for ingame, that he will do something, or atleast in a book

See a couple of posts above. The attack on the Stormwind Fleet at Vengeance Landing is prior to the Battle of Undercity and by Horde Forces on Alliance forces. No proxy.

It was a skirmish between Alliance forces and Hand of Vengeance faction, the same that assault Alliance AND Horde at Wrathgate. The Warsong Offensive, led by Garrosh and Saurfang Jr, was on the other opposite side of Northrend and they worked under a tentive alliance with the Alliance.

It was a skirmish between Alliance forces and Hand of Vengeance faction, the same that assault Alliance AND Horde at Wrathgate. The Warsong Offensive, led by Garrosh and Saurfang Jr, was on the other opposite side of Northrend and they worked under a tentive alliance with the Alliance.

"The Hand of Vengeance is the group of Forsaken forces that have been sent to Northrend by Sylvanas Windrunner to bring Undercity's vengeance upon the Lich King." So - the Forsaken are not part of the Horde and Sylvanas is not a Horde leader? So they do not act as part of the Horde and nothing they do ever counts?

As a sidenote: part of the reason why this discussion is rather interesting to me is a talk by a guy fom the Heritage Foundation about a year ago. He claimed that the goal of liberalism was the abolishment of discrimination and the means by which they try to achive this is the abandonment of standards: Teach children that everything is grey, that there is no black or white, that there are never clear values by which you can judge things and a better world will follow: because due to the lack of standards no one can be judged by them and thus be discriminated against. And to him - that teaching is whats going on in schools throughout western europe and the liberal parts of the US. At that time I thought he was a loony.

But: the discussion we are having right now seems to be one that could only be possible if he was right. My point of view is that there are clear standards by which the existance of a state of war can be gauged: You have an army in my territory that was not invited - we are at war. You kill my people - we are at war. etc.
The counterargument seems to be: war is never as black and white as that - wholesome slaughter is nothing official, you need a piece of paper or something. (Because the pen is mightier than the sword!)

Yes to every question. Grizzly Hills and Icecrown showcases it (which happens after Wrathgate and Undercity, lorewise) and the indication of a territorial treaty in the Shattering novel points to it.

Conflict happens after UC.
Conflict happens before UC.
Varian probably did not make his little speech before the Forsaken attacked the Thrid Fleet for example.
There has been conflict between the Horde and Alliance in every XPac without a formal state of war being in place.

It is YOUR interpretation that this not the case after BfUC. That Varians attack automatically escalated the situation into a full, formal state of war. Neither GH nor ICC refer to this state...GH, for example simpy, refers to the usual "we need resources" excuse that is used elsewhere. An excuse that would actually be unneeded if a state of war existed.

"The Hand of Vengeance is the group of Forsaken forces that have been sent to Northrend by Sylvanas Windrunner to bring Undercity's vengeance upon the Lich King." So - the Forsaken are not part of the Horde and Sylvanas is not a Horde leader? So they do not act as part of the Horde and nothing they do ever counts?

That's why it's proxy skirmish. Azeroth's warcraft (no pun intended) works on a different concept as ours. War is pretty much part of their lives, forcing all to live on an ever-changing world everyday.

Orgrimmar Champion says: This isn't honorable combat. I long to face my opponents in battle with my axe in hand!
Orgrimmar Champion says: These are my enemies. YOU would be my enemy in battle! Your king has declared war on my kind!

Did Thrall escalate it? Did Varian follow through? Varian did commit an act of war. And it had absolutley zero impact on the story. None.

Conflict happens after UC.
Conflict happens before UC.
Varian probably did not make his little speech before the Forsaken attacked the Thrid Fleet for example.
There has been conflict between the Horde and Alliance in every XPac without a formal state of war being in place.

It is YOUR interpretation that this not the case after BfUC. That Varians attack automatically escalated the situation into a full, formal state of war. Neither GH nor ICC refer to this state...GH, for example simpy, refers to the usual "we need resources" excuse that is used elsewhere. An excuse that would actually be unneeded if a state of war existed.

Yet, it's the first time that Horde and Alliance fight each other directly. Indication of war.

Since when has an influx of seawater been a good thing for plant life?

If that was the reason, you'd expect Thousand Needles to be a jungle as well. I'm pretty sure the trees in Desolace were grown by the druids, not by a canyon full of salt water.

In the expansion World of Warcraft: Cataclysm, the destruction of other lands allowed fresh water to flow into Desolace, turning parts of it into lush prairie. However it maintains a reputation for being a wasteland of bones and ashes thanks to the constant battling of the four centuar tribes, and more worryingly the demon-infested Mannoroc Coven to the south.

There you have it
Druids are powerful, but they cannot magically turn a Breen desert into a lush jungle

---------- Post added 2012-06-10 at 08:11 PM ----------

Originally Posted by RyanEX

And this is why I don't get why Garrosh fans are so dead set on deflecting blame off of him and onto others. Pretty sure everyone here knows that I'm a Varian fan all the way, and even I admit that he's far from perfect and he caused the small war during Wrath. I don't try and pass on blame because skirmishes always happen, but what he said in UC is a clear declaration of war.

But Garrosh fans are deadset on trying to reasoning out his actions to the point that he seems like an innocent victim of circumstance. The orcs have had 10+ years to try and change Durotar into a more liveable place. Yet all they seem interested in running into Ashenvale and provoking the Night Elves. Even after the fact while he's supposedly invading to help his people, why are his quartermasters still resorting to stealing food from their own allies to feed their soldiers?

Instead of making things better for his people this war he started has made things worse, and yet they still insist that it's not entirely his fault.

Im a Garrosh fan
But i never said or tried to prove that hes innocent or perfect
Merely saying that he has reasons for war beyond "hes just a jerk that loves killinjg for the sake of killing"

Durotar is a liveable place
It only become very very difficult with the Elemental Unrest
Do you really think its easy, even with magic, to turn a desert into a lush woodland or jungle?
Nowehere has that even been achieved

and why are you blaming Garrosh for that?
Blame Thrall. Garrosh was made Warchief when they were already in a supply crisis

Garrosh is far from perfect. and Yes he preffered war. and prbably would not "try very hard" through diplomacy or negotiations.
But its not like "omgz Orcs so stupid for living in Durotar"

Thrall chose Durotar to avoid conflict,
and some reasons of how orcs should pay for their sins, which I dont agree with , but thats another discussiuoin

You have to take into consideration that this isn't the Horde she sought to live in peace with, this is Garrosh's Horde. Jaina has sacrificed everything in the name of peace, even her own father. I think that her reaction is one of realization that Garrosh doesn't want peace, he wants everyone that isn't an orc dead or subjugated. Heck he doesn't even care about the other races of the Horde, he's a thug on a power trip and his attack on the people of Theramore is, in my opinion, the breaking point for someone who has just realized that her dreams of peaceful co-existence is just that, a dream.

This is a great explanation to Jaina's distraught mindset. Its bad enough that her dreams where washed away as the tide of the undead swallowed her lover into darkness but to add on to the destruction that the world seems to have had with Deathwing's reemergence in to the game, you have to wonder if she believes that she can no longer help guide the fates of the Humans anymore. Since her appearance in WCIII, you find her fighting with what is right and have it all shattered in a town that she built herself from the ground up is enough to throw anyone into chaos among themselves. She fights the tide, but now shes at a crossroads with herself, thinking that the path, any path for that matter, will lead to everyone's ultimate death. She caries a burden that no other human has placed upon themselves.

Originally Posted by Cargath

"Put the War back in Warcraft." Just... Just stop with that... The Horde and Alliance war may be a major war as of now, but, IT'S NOT THE ONLY WAR IN THE GAME. I know that the war between the Alliance and Horde will be the main focus in Mists of Pandaria, but like I said, that doesn't make it the only war in the game or in the Lore.

But how did this war come to pass? A blood feud that drives the orcs and humans into gloriuos battle with one another. This may not be the only story arc Blizzard has, but this is the best one thus far that keeps the player base wanting more. Its what got this franchise to where it is today.

Jaina grew up in times of peace when the orcs were all in camps. Of course she was young, naive, and nice.

Now that orcs are free again, running around causing problems, constant war, etc. Of course you get bitter after dealing with war and conflict for the past 10 years. Especially if theramore gets destroyed.

I like ponies and I really don't care what you have to say about that.