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Time for the RFU to get a grip on Elite Rugby? JL904 19 January, 2020 18:54

First things first - especially for opposition supporters looking at this.

What I say now is in no way "shifting the blame for our cheating". That is entirely down to the management and board at the club, and the fine/relegation are fully deserved. Right or wrong, we can't be stripped of trophies, but there's no question that there's a case to be made for an asterisk against them in the records showing that we were in breach of the financial regulations at the time.

For that reason alone, I respectfully ask visitors to keep this thread on topic - we don't need telling for the hundredth time what we've done, or what individuals feel should have been a more suitable punishment. Serious contributions to a serious question are, of course more than welcome.

OK - the point of the thread title.

PRL was established as a stand-alone competition for a number of rugby clubs - some historically elite, some with financial backing from wealthy individuals - with the agreement and endorsement of the RFU.

With the exception of some financial agreements regarding certain payments, that was the limit of their involvement so far as I know. The management, oversight and governance was left in the hands of the respective club chairmen - an "old boys club" in all but name. Well meaning amateurs, but ultimately all with a conflict of interest (namely their own club versus the wider game.)

They stumbled along without major calamity until four or 5 years ago when SC breaches first raised its head as a serious issue. What happened? Secret investigation, secret evidence, secret settlement, confidential agreement which a few of the clubs quickly decided weren't that important. "Wasn't us guv". Nobody was happy, and the legitimate questions didn't go away.

Five years later, here we are. It looks like we spent the next 5 years still cheating which raises several questions. Why were we not seriously investigated sooner? In hindsight, why did the other clubs accept a settlement - were they playing fast & loose and keen to see the issue go away? Why did PRL not look to get some independent people involved in the governance of the organisation?

Now, I'll say it again - this isn't about Saracens punishment, it's fully deserved. It's about the way it's been handled.

Again secret evidence, secret investigation and secret report - the results of which were held back during the WC so the press. pundits, fans and Uncle Tom Cobbley & all could leak & speculate at will. Result is finally made public - big fine and points deduction, followed immediately by Owen Slot revealing that there's more to come.

Then followed by more speculation with added spite and bile. It's hard to take - but equally hard to blame anyone spitting it either. My point is, why are they in a position to do so? Answer - the incompetent, frankly shambolic handling of the situation.

Ultimatums from rival Chairmen? Let's see your books or take relegation? Well, what happens when they've seen our books? Who leaks first? Relegation now having given Wuss a towelling chasing a BP - but now nothing at stake for us but possible Euro qualification for opponents ?

Talk about looking like making it up as we go. If it wasn't so tragic it would be funny. It isn't funny, but PRL are a laughing stock as an organisation running an elite competition. They couldn't run a bloody bath.

Hence my question. Is there a case for the sport's governing body to step in and actually get involved with the governance of elite rugby in England? I don't necessarily mean taking over - but insistence on being an independent presence, an overhaul of the rules and regulations, the oversight of club accounts, and not only take this mess by the scruff of the neck - but clean it up and ensure that it stays clean

Re: Time for the RFU to get a grip on Elite Rugby? plzd 19 January, 2020 18:58

Quote:

JL904First things first - especially for opposition supporters looking at this.
What I say now is in no way "shifting the blame for our cheating". That is entirely down to the management and board at the club, and the fine/relegation are fully deserved. Right or wrong, we can't be stripped of trophies, but there's no question that there's a case to be made for an asterisk against them in the records showing that we were in breach of the financial regulations at the time.

For that reason alone, I respectfully ask visitors to keep this thread on topic - we don't need telling for the hundredth time what we've done, or what individuals feel should have been a more suitable punishment. Serious contributions to a serious question are, of course more than welcome.

OK - the point of the thread title.

PRL was established as a stand-alone competition for a number of rugby clubs - some historically elite, some with financial backing from wealthy individuals - with the agreement and endorsement of the RFU.

With the exception of some financial agreements regarding certain payments, that was the limit of their involvement so far as I know. The management, oversight and governance was left in the hands of the respective club chairmen - an "old boys club" in all but name. Well meaning amateurs, but ultimately all with a conflict of interest (namely their own club versus the wider game.)

They stumbled along without major calamity until four or 5 years ago when SC breaches first raised its head as a serious issue. What happened? Secret investigation, secret evidence, secret settlement, confidential agreement which a few of the clubs quickly decided weren't that important. "Wasn't us guv". Nobody was happy, and the legitimate questions didn't go away.

Five years later, here we are. It looks like we spent the next 5 years still cheating which raises several questions. Why were we not seriously investigated sooner? In hindsight, why did the other clubs accept a settlement - were they playing fast & loose and keen to see the issue go away? Why did PRL not look to get some independent people involved in the governance of the organisation?

Now, I'll say it again - this isn't about Saracens punishment, it's fully deserved. It's about the way it's been handled.

Again secret evidence, secret investigation and secret report - the results of which were held back during the WC so the press. pundits, fans and Uncle Tom Cobbley & all could leak & speculate at will. Result is finally made public - big fine and points deduction, followed immediately by Owen Slot revealing that there's more to come.

Then followed by more speculation with added spite and bile. It's hard to take - but equally hard to blame anyone spitting it either. My point is, why are they in a position to do so? Answer - the incompetent, frankly shambolic handling of the situation.

Ultimatums from rival Chairmen? Let's see your books or take relegation? Well, what happens when they've seen our books? Who leaks first? Relegation now having given Wuss a towelling chasing a BP - but now nothing at stake for us but possible Euro qualification for opponents ?

Talk about looking like making it up as we go. If it wasn't so tragic it would be funny. It isn't funny, but PRL are a laughing stock as an organisation running an elite competition. They couldn't run a bloody bath.

Hence my question. Is there a case for the sport's governing body to step in and actually get involved with the governance of elite rugby in England? I don't necessarily mean taking over - but insistence on being an independent presence, an overhaul of the rules and regulations, the oversight of club accounts, and not only take this mess by the scruff of the neck - but clean it up and ensure that it stays clean

. No it was nothing to do with accounts
U cheated. Other club do not need the league to look at the account they don't cheat

Re: Time for the RFU to get a grip on Elite Rugby? maynas 19 January, 2020 19:04

I think you have a good point , though Iím not that sure the RFU are much better!. Sarries management are idiots and I now hate them and what they have done to us Sarries fans and players and hope they are all sacked or kicked out of the game, but the system isnít great either. Who, having seen how many years this has seemingly gone on for ,unchecked or ignored ,would be happy in leaving the future of the game in the hands of PRL? I suspect none here but also possibly not many at other clubs either. Iím sure other clubs are happy with the result but its taken years, and only stuttered there this year . Our sport deserves better.

Re: Time for the RFU to get a grip on Elite Rugby? maynas 19 January, 2020 19:10

Oh and this guy plzd is smearing the same vitriol over every thread on here, so not only seems short of a life and an ability to use punctuation but doesn't have the wit to realize how stupid he really looks.

Re: Time for the RFU to get a grip on Elite Rugby? JL904 19 January, 2020 19:23

Quote:

maynasOh and this guy plzd is smearing the same vitriol over every thread on here, so not only seems short of a life and an ability to use punctuation but doesn't have the wit to realize how stupid he really looks.

Re: Time for the RFU to get a grip on Elite Rugby? JL904 19 January, 2020 19:25

Quote:

plzd

Quote:

maynasI think you have a good point , though Iím not that sure the RFU are much better!. Sarries management are idiots and I now hate them and what they have done to us Sarries fans and players and hope they are all sacked or kicked out of the game, but the system isnít great either. Who, having seen how many years this has seemingly gone on for ,unchecked or ignored ,would be happy in leaving the future of the game in the hands of PRL? I suspect none here but also possibly not many at other clubs either. Iím sure other clubs are happy with the result but its taken years, and only stuttered there this year . Our sport deserves better.

rubbish i own my own company i do not pay money into a shell company for my employees i know where my money goes no other club has paid money inro some companies account the only club who have done this is sarries rather than expect every club to pay for some private accountant just do don't pay money into a shell company how easy is it

Re: Time for the RFU to get a grip on Elite Rugby? Exiled Falcon 19 January, 2020 20:14

Can the RFU do anything as such, is it not like in football where we have the FA and Football League where the FA (no comments please!) canít intervene in the league system? I may be wrong ofcouse, wonít be the first time.

Agree that PRL arenít really fit for purpose, for one thing English rugbyís top flight should never have been allowed get to a stage where it is so debt ridden.

Re: Time for the RFU to get a grip on Elite Rugby? Duncan96 19 January, 2020 20:47

From a very brief look around the world it looks as if leagues are usually run by the club owners who appoint some type of CEO. E.g. the football premier league, and the US NFL. Presumably they all feel this is better than being run by sports administrators like the FA and RFU who have hardly covered themselves in glory.

Arenít the lessons to learn that a: when you have a salary cap it must be policed in a competent way, and
b: if you have disciplinary rules then donít go making up new ones on the hoof in private?

In Australian Rugby League they employ 5 full time people whoís job is to seek out breaches. They have the power to eg turn up at owner/directorís houses and interrogate private computers. That would have nipped this problem in the bud years ago. Compare that to the time this has all taken despite everyone apparently knowing about it for years.

And if you are going to meter out justice it must always be open and be seen to be fair. The way this has been handled on all sides is neither of those.

PS: Great opening post. What a shame it doesnít seem possible to have a discussion here without having to emphasise that we arenít denying or excusing anything, and then when you go out of your way to do that, the small minded have to but in with their boring repetitions.

Re: Time for the RFU to get a grip on Elite Rugby? NickL 19 January, 2020 21:03

While the RFU's organisational abilities have sometimes left a bit to be desired, not least when they were asleep at the wheel while the game went professional, they can't be any worse than PRL can they?

Without excusing anything Saracens have done, the salary cap manager has clearly been incompetent if it has been going on for three years, and it's amazing that they haven't been relieved of their role. There's a worrying sense of PRL making up the rules as they go along in response to media coverage. All the secrecy and non-disclosure agreements just make it worse. Let's have the full report and see just how deep the rot has gone so it can be cut out and doesn't happen again at any club. A group of club chairmen running the top level of the English game lacks sufficient independence and impartiality - I'm not going to argue Saracens wouldn't deserve it, but the temptation for other club owners to eliminate an irritating rival permanently by scrapping relegation and ringfencing the league with them outside it must be great.

Rugby is not football - the relative importance of the club and international games is very different. The conflict between the interests of the England team and the clubs when it comes to limits on playing time and the length of the season doesn't seem to be getting any better. After "ruining" the European Cup in the opinion of many in the Celtic nations, now PRL are putting Lions tours at risk by stretching the season further into the summer. Maybe it's time they were stopped.

Re: Time for the RFU to get a grip on Elite Rugby? KT8Sarrie 19 January, 2020 21:17

ď Obviously has learning difficulties.

Seems not to understand the bold and underlined paragraphs.Ē

Just a point of order. I work in a state secondary school and support students with learning difficulties, please do not disparage them, they would all pretty much understand the importance of bold and underlined words in the text they have been given.

Re: Time for the RFU to get a grip on Elite Rugby? Marlow Nick 19 January, 2020 22:09

JL904
Good points well said.
I believe the chairmen are too hands-on, preferring confidential deals in metaphoric smoke filled rooms over a transparent, independently managed process. They should agree the high level objectives then step back and leave it to the managers to manage.

Re: Time for the RFU to get a grip on Elite Rugby? siNBin 19 January, 2020 22:31

JL904 - I think your suggestion is quite interesting. However, will CVC allow anyone else to intervene? They have invested a huge sum in this and I cant see them passing any control to anyone else. They are one of the most prestigious PE houses with an enviable track record (F1!). I think that allowing the RFU to intervene would be seen negatively by them.

I have been mulling the CVC position over in my mind during the last few weeks and wondering what their strategy is in this. Are they just "cleaning the brand" or does this create an extra opportunity for them to consolidate their position?

Re: Time for the RFU to get a grip on Elite Rugby? Trawling 19 January, 2020 23:27

I have read the original post and noted the content in bold type but what it really says is: 'shouldn't someone have saved us from ourselves' or possibly 'if we realised people really meant it when they said don't cheat we would have taken it more seriously'. Possibly both accurate but not particularly admirable and notable for the timing of your post.

Re: Time for the RFU to get a grip on Elite Rugby? JL904 20 January, 2020 00:19

Quote:

TrawlingI have read the original post and noted the content in bold type but what it really says is: 'shouldn't someone have saved us from ourselves' or possibly 'if we realised people really meant it when they said don't cheat we would have taken it more seriously'. Possibly both accurate but not particularly admirable and notable for the timing of your post.

No Trawling, it says exactly what I wrote, not what you think I'd written, or what you wish I'd written. Wasn't it clear enough that I said that it was our responsibility to not need saving from ourselves?

As for timing - when should the future governance of our game be discussed ?

2017/18 after we won the title with half the Lions pack - when it was plain to the world apart from PRL that we were cheating and rival fans from every club were saying so ?

Or now, when the facts are leaking out bit by bit, speculation is rampant and the chance is there to make the changes needed to administer the game in a professional manner?

Seriously, if you genuinely think that PRL is fit for purpose - then please just say so, and argue your case rather than skirting the actual issue (namely PRL 's handling of the scandal) and putting words into my mouth.

Re: Time for the RFU to get a grip on Elite Rugby? clalan 20 January, 2020 08:03

The premiership has always had a self interest, as relative newcomers the hoops we had to jump through to be allowed in or not fined was a joke on promotion, we had to have higher standard stadia then 30% of the current ( originals) had, which is quite a bitter pill when working on a shoestring.
As for the RFU the champagne charlie blazers canít even run their part let alone putting them as overseers of the PRL.

Re: Time for the RFU to get a grip on Elite Rugby? Leipziger 20 January, 2020 08:31

Falcons fan in peace. As many of you have said, this whole thing has been handled shambolically, from the hushing-up of offences in 2015 allegedly to save the sport's reputation (when anyone could see it was doing the exact opposite), to Saracens only being punished now for offences going back to 2016-17, to a summary relegation which looks like a case of kicking you while you're down. And Tony Rowe running his mouth - of course I have no reason to believe they're doing anything wrong, but if it turns out Exeter aren't whiter than white, he's going to be mighty embarrassed.

Surely this could all have been sorted in 2017, give you guys the 35-point deduction and a fine to wreck the following season but get your squad back under the cap, with a strong warning that any further offences would prompt relegation. Why that didn't happen I don't know, maybe there were threats of legal action, hush money paid, other clubs who have broken the salary cap (I can't believe Saracens are the only ones who've ever done it) didn't want to be punished too, general shambolic admin at PRL? But whatever happened, the sport and PRL have taken a huge reputational hit that didn't really need to happen.

I don't know what the answer is, but although Saracens were the ones who cheated and have been deservedly punished, they aren't the only ones who've done wrong here.

Re: Time for the RFU to get a grip on Elite Rugby? ComeOnSarries 20 January, 2020 09:40

It is patently clear that neither PRL in general or the Salary Cap Manager are fit for purpose.

Saracens were reckless in their treatment of the salary cap and a fine and 35 points deduction is the prescribed punishment. I genuinely donít think though that at this time we can have confidence that the 11 other clubs are operating within the Salary Cap as for example Saracens managed to get away with it for over 2 years and that was using very transparent arrangements with full disclosure at Companies House. Just imagine if anybody half competent tried to hide payments.

The recent developments from PRL come across as petulant and making up their rules as they go along - on what basis could they demand the return of the recent Premiership Trophies? Certainly not written in their rules as a punishment for exceeding the cap.

Rugby will survive this turbulent period but rugby administration really does need to become more professional and less big ego driven.

I agree with the sentiment of the OP - and I've learned a clear lesson here. There has been no communcation at all about this episode (saga more like) from the PRL or the club.

Into this vacuum have come the 'sources' / 'friends' / ' contacts who are tipping off the Fisslers/Andy G@&de's / RugbyPasses of this world. This has only brought confusion and a myriad of rumours that would only ever be stopped with clear, concise communication, which at this moment is still not forthcoming.

Even now, we're all watching correspondants saying 'There's more to come..', Tony Rowe suggesting there could've been worse implications than relegation if a forensic audit of the accounts took place (?) and still the powers that be remain silent.....

Re: Time for the RFU to get a grip on Elite Rugby? Neil-H 20 January, 2020 10:52

Interesting post, and yes the PRL do need to look at how they have handled the whole Salary Cap scandal, as it hasn't been handled nowhere near as well as it should have been...

However as stated above the RFU are not any better than PRL and in fact imho the RFU are to blame with this situation, its not short term but goes back years.

In my opinion, when the game went professional, the RFU just sat on their @#$%& and did nothing and watched rich fans from clubs plough monies into the clubs they love to enable the clubs to embrace/survive professionalism... some clubs got brought out by some who fancied owning a club or thought there might be money in it.... the RFU should have got involved at the start, but they didn't, they did sweet FA.... they clueless and didn't know what to do.

Move forward a few years and some of the wanna be owners, pulled out and left their clubs screwed, other clubs over spending to try and compete and we lost a lot of clubs to bankruptcy, RFU didn't help out those clubs then... hence the need for salary cap and control in spending, as thought and agreed by the owners.

Now we in a situation where most of the clubs owners have ploughed millions into their clubs of their own money to keep them going...

So why if you an owner of a club, would you want to give control of players/league/competitions/anything to the RFU??? unless they buy you out.... and the RFU can not afford to and I am sure not all owners would want to sell after everything they have done for their clubs?

It wont happen!

In the grand scale of thing, the game is still in its infancy in Professionalism and like most sports it will make mistakes, this sadly being the biggest one in how it was handled imho...

As I have stated before... the PRL, RFU, RPA and now CVC all need to sit down, have a frank and open discussion about the state of the game, the monies, player welfare... they all have go hand in hand

What the solution is... I am not sure, but they between them are the controllers of the game? some ideas from me is maybe max wage cap for individual players on top of club salary cap? maximum game time for players, minimum squad size? more incentive for home grown players as 600k really isn't much now?

They have an opportunity to try to make some good come out of what has happened....

Re: Time for the RFU to get a grip on Elite Rugby? beshocked 20 January, 2020 12:06

Why on earth do Premiership Rugby decide the best time to bring up salary caps are during world cup years? Itís the most disruptive and I still have a theory that the salary issues was leaked to the players before the RWC final.

f England had won the RWC would we talking about this? Would Saracens have been dragged over hot coals?

For many teams this has been a long time coming, gleefully waiting to stick the boot in but really they donít gain that much. It is schadenfreude.

The Bloodgate scandal was also gleefully drawn out by the media. Nothing beats a good story for the media to keep on milking.

People say that the media do it for integrity but scandal sells newspapers.

Look at Megxit Ė thatís a story thatís been done to death and really if you look at it Megan hasnít really done particularly heinous to justify the witch hunt.

Saracens deserve to be punished but where does it end?

English rugby needs to move on in a positive fashion. How can English rugby do it currently?
Premiership Rugby have poorly mismanaged this but how does one bring this out in the open in a way that is damage control?

This is what the media want. They want a story that keeps on running. Not for the good of rugby or to try and reform. Not to try and learn from the salary cap scandal.

If there was truly a plan to move on there would be serious plans put in place.

Re: Time for the RFU to get a grip on Elite Rugby? Neil-H 20 January, 2020 12:20

Quote:

beshockedWhy on earth do Premiership Rugby decide the best time to bring up salary caps are during world cup years? Itís the most disruptive and I still have a theory that the salary issues was leaked to the players before the RWC final..

Beshocked as many have stated here, the PRL have made a right mess of how this and salary cap has been handled and I agree with them... however... it wasn't the PRL it was the press that found this and it appears to have tried to been hushed up during the world for many reason, probably for best of England rugby team... and I agree with you, I am sure some players knew the news while in Japan.

But what where the PRL then meant to do once the press broke the story, ignore it and bury their heads in the sand again, make rugby even more of a laughing stock?

Yes rugby is the biggest loser here, but Saracens got caught cheating and sorry should be punished...

Now rugby needs to learn from the mistakes and try to move forward for the better, so at least something comes from it.

Re: Time for the RFU to get a grip on Elite Rugby? Sarriebone 20 January, 2020 13:44

I read a suggestion somewhere (forget where, apologies if it was by someone on here) that teams should give their salary money to an external body, RFU or other, along with player contracts, the external body then pays the players in line with their contract. that way any other financial transaction between any connected party and a player is outside the cap.

Re: Time for the RFU to get a grip on Elite Rugby? Bedlington Lad 20 January, 2020 15:41

"I genuinely donít think though that at this time we can have confidence that the 11 other clubs are operating within the Salary Cap as for example Saracens managed to get away with it for over 2 years and that was using very transparent arrangements with full disclosure at Companies House. Just imagine if anybody half competent tried to hide payments."

Re: Time for the RFU to get a grip on Elite Rugby? #wolfpack 21 January, 2020 10:22

Quote:

Bedlington Lad"I genuinely donít think though that at this time we can have confidence that the 11 other clubs are operating within the Salary Cap as for example Saracens managed to get away with it for over 2 years and that was using very transparent arrangements with full disclosure at Companies House. Just imagine if anybody half competent tried to hide payments."
I would recommend you don't tar other clubs with your brush.

Re: Time for the RFU to get a grip on Elite Rugby? Chris1850 21 January, 2020 11:53

Quote:

#wolfpack

Quote:

Bedlington Lad"I genuinely donít think though that at this time we can have confidence that the 11 other clubs are operating within the Salary Cap as for example Saracens managed to get away with it for over 2 years and that was using very transparent arrangements with full disclosure at Companies House. Just imagine if anybody half competent tried to hide payments."
I would recommend you don't tar other clubs with your brush.

You haven't read todays Telegraph have you?

Until such time as players loan arrangements are deemed to be in contravention of the salary cap regulations, then such arrangements are above board. Of course if such arrangements are deemed to contravene the regulations then those clubs that have benefited from them, AND been over the cap as a result, deserve to face the music in the same way as Sarries. Any punishment being commensurate with the extent and time period of the contravention.

At this rate, we will have a 23 club championship whilst Newcastle will be the only club in the Prem!

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