Posted
by
kdawson
on Monday December 21, 2009 @11:18PM
from the blow-it-out-gto dept.

DesScorp writes "It's the end of an era in auto technology, as the very last big block V-8 engine from GM has rolled off the production line. The L18 engine was the last variant of an engine that had been in continuous production for over 50 years. The big blocks powered everything from the classic muscle cars of the '60s and '70s to heavy-duty trucks today. From the Buffalo News: 'When GM said last June the L18 would be eliminated by year's end, the announcement triggered another show of devotion to the product. Some customers ordered two years' worth of L18s, to put on the shelf for future use.' More than 5 million big blocks have been produced over the engine's history. The final big block engine to come off the line in Tonawanda, NY is headed for the GM Heritage Center in Sterling Heights, MI."

The Big block V8 line is being closed. The Tonawanda Engine plant still makes smaller engines. But there aren't positions for the V8 guys, so they are all laid off. So not as bad as I originally stated. Doesn't make it any less painful for the area though.

Shoehorn anyone? Inline V-8(or God forbid I-10 or 12) tends to be a bit of a reach for real estate under the hood.

Regardless of "better" designs, we're witnessing an end of an era here, considering this format has survived for 50 out of the last 100 years of the automobile. A sad day indeed.

You want an IT analogy? Fine. Sometimes it's about the finesse and raw power coming from a 1000W system with dual graphics cards and 15K RPM drives, and not always about "green" designs or overall reliability. Sometimes you want your machine to haul ass and look good no matter the cost.

I think what they were saying is that pistons in a V configuration (e.g. V6, V8, V12 etc) are not in a line, hence they are not inline engines. An engine can either be a V or an inline, not both, much like a line can't be straight and curved at the same time.

"Straight" lines like the Gandfather post is primarily a Euclidean idea, and the extent of most people's view of geometry. However, Georg Riemann and those who followed describe a geometry where a plane isn't flat, lines aren't straight and many of the "truths" you learned in Highschool Geometry are no longer valid.

Start with a course in differential geometry, move to topology, then on to General Relativity, and if you have the stomach for it, there is a book that ties it all together, "Gravitation" by Misner, Thorne and Wheeler.

Regardless of "better" designs, we're witnessing an end of an era here, considering this format has survived for 50 out of the last 100 years of the automobile. A sad day indeed.

What's sad is that GM had to almost go out of business before they'd finally acknowledge that such an inefficient engine type was obsolete. The handwriting's been on the wall since 19 ****ing 74 [wikipedia.org], for crisakes. But GM couldn't change its mindset, and instead sat and twiddled their thumbs while the Japanese took away their business.

I suspect GM kept at it this long for a good business reason: tinkerers loved that kind of engine: relatively easy to self-repair and powerful. Now the only choices will be wimpy or too complex to self-service. The Duke boys will have to rely much more on Cooter now.

Not everyone likes to work on their own cars, but, for those who do, having a standard engine design like the GM big block (or the GM small block, for that matter) has been a boon. The fact that the basic mechanics of the engine have changed little since the '70s means that the engine is great for learning the basic principles of engine mechanics. Put another way, the GM big block was the Unix of V-8 engines.

I enjoy maintaining my own vehicle, and while I get the WTF moment when a part costs more than I'm expecting to pay (for instance, Ford wants 600$ for a light controller. 4 relays, a few transistors and caps... WHY!!!) I still notice that a new car has similar components to any other car out there.

Yes, it's a little complicated by the electronics now and then, but you still have a motor, a transmission, battery tires oil younameit it's all there, user serviceable. Even the steering components haven't changed much - and things you do more often are still accessable. Ball joints, brake pads and rotors, oil, wheel bearings etc.

how about this - in NC you can't pass inspection if you have a check engine light code active.

even i that code is a dealer only codeeven if the car runs fine and would even pass emissions if they used the sniffer

dealer wants 85$ just to read the code out. and 90% of the time it is a set of things that can cause it and are dealer only parts.

it has gotten to the point that you can't even get shop manuals for newer cars.

and with the way ODB ties every thing together - that 600$ ford part is going to be the only one that might work - where as in my older cars i can wire it up the way i want so that it works, using parts of my choice.

That happens with anything nowadays that they discontinue, or people THINK will be discontinued. See, there's this idea that's been driven into people's heads over the past 20 years or so that getting your hands on anything that's scarce will be an easy road to riches. The old "money for nothing" ploy.

If it's even remotely rare, some greedy, bottom feeding, unethical scumbag will buy the last of them, then put them back on sale at an inflated price, demanding huge profits while adding zero value.

That happens with anything nowadays that they discontinue, or people THINK will be discontinued. See, there's this idea that's been driven into people's heads over the past 20 years or so that getting your hands on anything that's scarce will be an easy road to riches. The old "money for nothing" ploy.

Well, there's 'rare' and then there's 'in demand'.

The big block v-8 filled a niche. It's not a niche that can't be replaced, but it's a niche.

Ordering a '2 year supply' isn't stockpiling in a hope to get rich, it's having a sufficient supply that you can still manufacture your product, whether it be an emergency water pump system, U-Haul truck*, mobile home, generator, boat engine, or what not until you've re-engineered your product to take a different engine. Or some Chinese company licenses the design and starts production...

If it's even remotely rare, some greedy, bottom feeding, unethical scumbag will buy the last of them, then put them back on sale at an inflated price, demanding huge profits while adding zero value.

Uh.... Sure that 'scumbag' is adding value: He's adding the value of it being available. He has to pay for warehousing them in good condition, sales staff to sell them, advertising to let companies know the product is still available(in limited quantities). He has to take the risk that it'll never sell, and in many states, play a percentage tax on their retail value every year. It's expensive to keep stock around.

Not that some of what you mention doesn't happen, but from what I'm reading, GM fulfilled all orders in before a certain date, so the 'scum-suckers' at least can't rape the customers who planned ahead and stockpiled some of their own...

But thats the thing about selling stuff. Your consumers can be 100% behind your old product. But then they all retire at about the same time and suddenly a solid market has evaporated. I said consumers kept buying the product. Past tense.

The only GM product to include the big block V8 from the factory was heavy duty pickup trucks. This engine hasn't been for sale in a Caprice, Impala, Corvette, Firebird, or Camaro for several decades. While you're right in general terms that GM has screwed up its products, product reliability, and understanding customer needs for a very long time, your specific example here is inaccurate.

This huge old engine was excellent for towing, very nearly as strong as GM's large pickup truck diesel engine and far cheaper for both GM to build and purchasers to buy. High RPM performance was a joke, but this was built for running below 4000 RPMs, which is normal for an engine used to tow. This is a case where GM did something right, and sold something that customers in the target segment wanted to buy.

The problem with a tiered product lineup is that you divide your resources in research, marketing, advertising, and design too far. Toyota grew from nothing to a juggernaut of the US market with just two brands: Toyota and Lexus. They only added Scion recently. Honda bit off a big chunk of the domestic manufacturer's market share with just Honda and Acura. Nissan has just Nissan and Infiniti. Hyundai has just Hyundai and Kia, and only now that they're highly successful are they considering a separate luxury brand.

Ford has made an amazing turnaround in product competitiveness and desirability in the past four years, and they did it by selling Aston Martin, Jaguar, and Land Rover, cutting down their stake in Mazda, and reducing their number of Mercury models. Now they just have Ford, Lincoln, a bit of Mercury, and Volvo and Volvo is rumored to be for sale. GM is in the process of shutting down or selling Saturn, Hummer, Saab, and Pontiac and it has sold its pieces of Isuzu, Suzuki, and Subaru. The only reason Buick was kept is that it's GM's most successful brand in China. The only reason GMC trucks was kept is that most Buick dealerships are Buick/GMC dealerships.

GM management is finally focusing on building 30 decent products spread across four product lines (Chevrolet, Buick, GMC, Caddillac) instead of 80 substandard products spread across twelve product lines, which was the mess they had in 2001.

I don't think the big-block was so much obsolete, as it was becoming irrelevant. Their "small block" V8 has been sold up to 400 cubic inch displacement for street use (that I'm aware of), compared to 454 for the big block. Nothing "small" about that!

The few performance cars GM still builds with V8s use high revving small block designs to get their power. The big block has been used mostly in trucks for many years now, but the trend for high power in trucks has shifted to diesels.

my point was that anyone thats serious about performance wouldn't chose an inline configuration for an engine. They'd chose a boxer or v configuration over inline any day. And if there was free reign for engine choice, I'd be willing to be that the wankel motor might be chosen. Mazda would probably still be kicking ass in le mans if their wankel didn't get banned.

No not really, V-engines have a little added complexity, which may drag down reliability, but for all practical purposes there is no dramatic difference that makes a inline superior in peformance and reliability.

A V allows you package more displacement in to smaller overall volume or to have less car to package around given in engine. Weight savings from a V engine boosts handling performance and economy. Yet an inline engine will be cheaper than a V, due to one, block, single manifolds, two camshafts instead of four.

Difference in power may come from firing order, and the path intake charge and exhaust gas take and a small reduction in friction in a Inline 4 or 6. Inline 6s can have a good cross flow set up for top end power when mounted longitudnally in a front engined car (short straight intake runners and 6 into 1 headers, make a good turbo platform. BMW, Nissan and Toyota have exploited this to great effect in racing and in road cars. Aftermarket Nissan Skyline motors with 6-1 turbo manifolds make whopping power.

In the end, V8s rose to greatnews because it was probably the best balance between a number of cylinders, dimensions, displacement etc. A four cylinder block is about as long as you want to go. Big displacement engines need a greater number of pistons to stop the piston speeds getting out of hand along with smoothness reasons. Eight cylinders is just right, for big power or a big engine.

A inline 6, and a 90 degree V12 and a boxer six are probably the three ideal engines, having perfect balance. The greatest engine of them all on the balance of all considerations, including, cost, complexity and packaging is the inline four. That's why V8s are made out of two of them:

American V8s most often really are just two inline four engines stuck together. Right down to the split-plane (cross-plane) crankshaft. Yes there are hack mechanics who have lopped off one bank of cylinders to make a inline four, it works. Unfortunatley cross-plane crankshafts have a lot of drawbacks including difficult to control vibration, unbalanced piston movement, poorer exhaust scavanging in certain exhaust configuartions and need for counterweights that add rotational inertia. Yes every American V8 you drove had a dirty kludge under the hood.

IMHO, a real V8 has a flat plane crankshaft. Truly the correct format for a V8, better firing order, more power, more balance and even better sound:)

The big block Chevrolet is a simple, tough engine that produces excellent torque, is durable, very easy to work on and inexpensive to repair. Aftermarket support is excellent and one can build complete engines without using a single GM part.

The powerplant of choice that replaced big block gas engines is the diesel, which is vastly more complex, brutally expensive to repair, difficult to work on even for well-equipped shops, and burdened with complex emission systems. Diesel fuel quality is always a concern, especially with low-sulfur diesel. They make great power, but you pay dearly for it.

I'll be hunting more of them for spares (I just rebuilt a 366 for my C30 wrecker). Like the small block Chevrolet, these adaptable engines will be working for many decades to come.

While the big block wont EVER make it to a million, I've seen an awful AWFUL lot of diesels fail to make 500k. When it comes time to rebuild the engine the big block can be rebuilt several times over for what the Diesel will Cost. (atleast in parts and machining costs) Diesels commonly give twice the service life of their gas equivalents, anything more than that while not unheard of, is not to be expected either. (some gas engines go 400k too) Don't get me wrong, I would trade my Vortec 454 for a diesel in a heartbeat. But my motivation would be for the improved gas mileage. ESPECIALLY when Towing. The only reason I own Big block is for pulling a 10,000# trailer, and it does this VERY VERY well. But it get's about 10mpg when towing (15.5 when not) A Diesel would probably get 18mpg when towing and i could run homemade bio diesel. My tow vehicle with a big block is inexpensive, dependable, easy to work on, and gets pretty poor gas mileage....

If a diesel makes it to 500k it will have saved you so much in fuel costs compared to gasoline that you can afford to throw it away and still make a massive profit.

Plus I'm not so sure the difference "complexity" is anything like you claim. Modern diesels are computer controlled so they're a lot cleaner then the old ones and don't need anywhere near as much extra hardware to meet smog standards.

Diesels are perfect for American SUVs. American drivers are conditioned to expect grunt at low revs, which gasoline engines are terrible at delivering (you need a big thirsty V8 to do it). Diesel engines are much more suited to American expectations so you can have a smaller engine ans get double the savings in economy.

If you start extracting diesel from Algae then it will be much cleaner and more consistent than petroleum-diesel and you can probably get rid of all the emissions-control junk which is needed for diesel engines today.

When it comes time to rebuild the engine the big block can be rebuilt several times over for what the Diesel will Cost.

I feel the need to stress the fact that there are rebuildable engines and non-rebuildable engines.

Semi engines are rebuildable. They have replacable cylinder liners and bearings that can be removed and replaced. Yes, this is expensive, but it's cheaper than a new engine. These are the engines that run for a million miles +.

Most diesel pickup truck engines are non-rebuildable. Their bearings are replaceable, but the cylinder bore is actually part of the cast block. You can hone the bore, replace the

but leaf springs work very well on trucks and other applications where coil spring towers would be awkward (and coils risk coil bind when overloaded).

Not only that but it's easier to tie into supporting members (eg. the frame) so you can carry more sprung weight. This is why heavy-duty machinery almost always has leaf springs. Plus you need less lateral support and they are stronger in general.

Do you understand that the Hotchkiss rear suspension (which is what you're thinking of) involves a solid rear axle and is completely different from the transverse single composite monospring used by the Corvette (which uses IRS)? The Corvette has had fully independent suspension since 1963.

I'm a fan of Jeremy Clarkson and his wacky antics too, but when he talks about American cars he's often quite wrong.

Aluminum is nice for racing, but there is no penalty for using iron (which is also more stable) in truck applications. For hauling, the front end weight is a plus (and part of why I just installed a 366 in my wrecker).

... Aluminum overheats at nothing. Your radiator goes on an aluminum engine and chances are good the engine's got a hole in it now too. Berate cast iron all you want, but at least it could handle a cheap component failing without exploding.

Duramax engines are made by DMAX, which is a joint venture between GM and Isuzu. They aren't related to the Chevy big block, which is a gasoline engine (there are differences between the Diesel cycle [wikipedia.org] and the Otto cycle [wikipedia.org] other than what fuel they use.)

74 3/4 ton suburban with towing package. Damn that thing would pull anything. It got 11 miles per gallon in town, on the road, pulling a trailer. No matter what it always got 11 miles per gallon. Drive it 35 miles per hour or 85 and it still got 11 miles per gallon. Weird. I miss that big boxy thing. Nothing has that much room anymore.

By crickey! mileage explains why we don't get these big engines in Europe. Just did a quick calculation, my local garage charges GBP1.09 / litre for standard (95 octane) petrol/gasoline, that's approx $6.62 a US gallon. Would explain why these engines are very cool and impressive but you don't see them round here.. What kind of capacity fuel tanks do vehicles with these engines have?

European pumps dole out gas based on RON (research octane number), whereas in North American they use "pump octane", or "anti-knock index". AKI is calculated by averaging RON and MON (motor octane number). MON is determined experimentally on a special engine.

RON-MON is usually 6 to 10 in North America. This is called the sensitivity, S.

Given S=10, then,

RON-MON = 1095 - MON = 1095 - 10 = MONMON = 85

and

95+85 / 2 = 90

So 95 octane in europe is around 90 octane in North America, maybe a little higher depending on S.

Real diesels, in trucks that go "kssh" and bend in the middle, do rock.:)

The Navistar abortions that triggered the lawsuitfest with Ford aren't their finest hour, and light truck diesels generally are brutally expensive to repair. For the cost of replacing a set of diesel injectors, I can rebuild a complete big block Chevy, and for what diesels trucks cost to purchase I could stuff 460s and 454s into my Fords and Chevys and feed them premium for years. Inline Cummi

The leaks regarding the 2011 Mustang GT's (the V8 model) engine specs have the previous 315hp engine being replaced with a 412hp engine. It'll still get about 24mpg highway though. On the other hand, the V6's 210hp engine is being replaced by a 305hp model 2011. And get this, going from 16/24mpg to 19/30mpg. (Those numbers reflect the automatic transmision model.)

As for GM, it was the reintroduced 2010 Camaro, especially the V6 model which currently has comparable numbers to the upcoming Mustang V6, tha

Wrong. Diesel is lower in energy in gasoline per pound mass. Evenso, the difference is one of a few percent and not anywhere close to half as you claimed. The reason you get more thermodynamic efficiency is that diesels run at a higher compression ratio. The compression ratio that an engineer selects is a function of a number of variables the most significant of which is the type of fuel. Engines and fuels go hand in hand in the design process. One does not "rock" compared to the other.

so goes another point of history, maybe for the better, but there was something about when you opened the hood and you saw one, now you look under the hood and it's confusing. I guess age is getting the better of me LOL.

well I guess you'll all start wondering what it was like to have 550hp+, and punching it, there is just a sound, not like any other sound, it's the sound of power, raw, and tamed by only your nerve as you head down the strip. light to light, pole to pole, neck to neck, blasting the traps at

The engine being retired made 450HP which Ford is making with a midsized V-6 (ok only 415, but still). The Ford V6 is almost half the weight (449 lbs vs 734). Ok it's apples and bananas since one's a big truck V8 optimized for torque and the other's a race car V6 with twin turbochargers, but the point remains that old technology is old and there's very little need for 8.1L gas engine.

I'm old enough to appreciate the value of a piece of tech that has served so well for so long. Likewise, I have a soft spot for the land-line and the command line. But there are pleasurable vices that we simply can't afford to cling to, and the big petrol-burning engine is one of them.

We used to have an old 87 Chevy 3500 van and a 85 Chevy cube truck. Both were powered by the big block 366. Those things were nasty, I could chirp the tires on the cube truck with a light load! The van was a rocket ship, you had to be gentle on the pedal. They were hardy engines and you could pile on miles with little problems. The trucks rear finally blew in the 2000 and we junked it and sold the van. Replaced them with two GM 3500 vans which have the small block but are very ballsy. Can handle a 2700lb lo

The reason GM needed to get bailed out by the government is because they ignored the evidence of every other country on earth and presumed US gas prices would always stay the same. If they'd produced the last of these ten years ago and started making cars which actually have something remotely resembling fuel efficiency, good design, or low carbon emissions, then American cars might not be a global joke, the government might be a couple of billion dollars less in debt, and a whole lot of Americans who used to work in the auto industry would still have their jobs.

It took near bankruptcy to finally get GM to acknowledge that they had to actually innovate(or at least copy everyone else) rather than continuing with a technology which is 50 years old.

"Diesel is always a bit of a difficult thing because it requires the infrastructure available to fuel it and the US has never been really big on Diesel."

I am going to assume that you do not live in the United States and have never visited. Because I assure you that diesel is readily available at gas stations (though not quite as available as gasoline). I also assure you that there are plenty of small cars. I can also assure you that there is plenty of demand for diesels.

"You need to keep in mind diesel is basically a byproduct of making petrol."

Not really true. In general the two primary outputs from refining a barrel of crude oil are gasoline and diesel. Refiners will however optimize for one or the other (probably based on the type of crude they use, their setup, market, etc.)

"This means diesel is actually pretty cheap compared to petrol."

This is a function of demand. Diesel prices did not increase significantly due to the transition from high to low sulfur. They wen

Pretty sure they are talking about things like boat manufacturers and water pump manufacturers. GM stopped using this engine in their trucks over 2 years ago, the production line was kept running to fill those outside customer orders. Since this beast needed 30% more displacement to produce 10% more torque and significantly LESS HP than the 6.2L V8 it's no surprise that GM stopped using it.

Uh, this was the 8.1L (496 cu) engine that's being retired, it was a true big block. It was also a big hunk of cast iron with iron headers and hence heavy as all get out (734 lbs shipping weight vs 564 for the 6200).

Really, because I don't see many soccer mom's with 8100's, more like farmers, construction crews, and race car drivers with towing loads of 7,000+ pounds. Oh and commercial trucks for intracity delivery and tow trucks.