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It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Thank you, one and all, for your lovely comments. Wish you could have been there; what a time THAT would have been! Poor Hershey...he would have never been allowed off that stage.

I was backtracking (ugh) through the last several pages, trying to find someone's (sorry, whoever you are, I've forgotten) suggestion on how to really pinpoint a post. I finally found it, but in my explorations I discovered how simply OVERWHELMINGLY wonderful everyone has been. Not only in posting some really great web sites, but in sharing experiences and offerring suggestions, and on and on. You are ALL so exceptional!! And I truly mean this.

This thread is so huge and so great that I wish we could publish it somewhere. Of course, I could print out all 71 pages and close to 1800 posts, but I think that might kill my printer, which is on its last legs already.

There is so much information here...all of it astounding in its scope.

Does anyone have any ideas on how we could put it all together? Maybe not a book, but something more substantial. And something that would make it easy to find what we are looking for. I just honestly think we are unique in all of cyberspace. We deserve something to signify that.

What do you think? Any suggestions?

You know...I just had a thought. Wonder if now is the time to bring up the idea of a Chopin Forum to Frank...just a thought.

Kathleen

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After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891

"Love has nothing to do with what you are expecting to get — only what you are expecting to give — which is everything. What you will receive in return varies. But it really has no connection with what you give. You give because you love and cannot help giving." Katharine Hepburn

I have just been reading the diaries of Cosima Wagner and these throw light on Liszt's biography of Chopin as well as other matters.

Franz Liszt’s daughter Cosima (by his mistress Marie d’Agoult) fell in love with Richard Wagner in her late 20s and eventually left her husband the conductor Hans von Bülow to live with him, and for the next fourteen years until his death they were inseperable. Wagner was only two years younger than Liszt but he must have had something going for him! She kept a diary for nearly all their life together. Of course, Cosima was familiar with Chopin’s works as her father continued to play and cherish them always. On Sunday, March 16, 1873 she recorded:As I was singing a theme today, R [husband Richard] asks me who had written it; when I say Chopin, he regrets that he himself plays the piano so little, for in consequence all these things have remained virtually unknown to him. “By merely being heard,” he says, “They have not impressed themselves on my mind; they dissolve like a beautiful sunset, arouse feelings in me but no reflections, no questions about where they came from, as with things of the truly great.” [Of course, Wagner would have included himself in the category of the “truly great”.]Cosima quarrelled with her husband over Chopin’s music – Wagner simply did not understand it. In March 1877 she records that her father was working on the revision of his biography of Chopin, which was first published in 1852. The revised version appeared in 1879. Of course, that was 30 years after Chopin’s death. It is often said that this biography is more the work of Liszt’s mistress, the Princess Sayn Wittgenstein, but the fact that Liszt himself carefully re-worked it means that it really is how he saw Chopin, even though he mis-remembered some of the facts.

Simply stated and perhaps this is written somewhere in your articles, but Chopin did die of heart disease. His heart simply gave out; it just couldn't take the strain of his pulmonary disease anymore.

And, the accounts of his constant sufferring are vastly overstated. True, he did have some very difficult and painful and frightening "attacks," (for want of a better word), but overall, his life was NOT one big "coughing up blood" portrait. He enjoyed many days/years of relatively good health, and there were times when he was feeling as healthy as a horse. (Sorry for the trite analogies.)

Regarding the book by Liszt... I did read it, and even I, a true Chopinophile, was embarrassed by it. I never knew Chopin could "walk on water."

Its language is extremely flowerly and the grammar leaves a lot to be desired. However, I think it is a MUST read for Chopin addicts.

Liszt's love and respect for Chopin are so evident. Liszt was one heck of a guy. He had a big heart along with his huge talent. And I can understand how he let the Princess have her way with her over-the-top descriptions of Chopin and his music.

Regarding Mary Rose's comments about Wagner and how he did not "understand" Chopin's music. This comes as no surprise to me, considering Wagner's personality and ego.

MaryRose: While we are on the subject...in M. Chopin, Chopin gets very angry at one point when he is describing the end of his liaison with Sand. And, to both Frycek's and my surprise (shock), he calls her the "w" word. Now, I KNOW Chopin NEVER called her this, but I do remember reading someone else doing so. But naturally, I can't remember who it was. Maybe both Frycek and I didn't quite hear M. Chopin's remark in its full context (he did speak a little softly at times), so it is very possible he might have been quoting someone's opinion of her. As angry as he was, as upset and bewildered and heart-broken, he always remained the gentleman regarding her.

Remember that documentary "Chopin's Afterlife"? Well, I finally had the opportunity to view it. It was obvious a labor of love, and it was, in most instances, a great tribute to Chopin. Many pianists playing many examples of his music and explaining what it meant to them. Some analyses of his character, personality, etc.

And a very moving scene of Chopin's grave in Paris, just overflowing with flowers and the Polish embassador laying a huge wreath...hundreds of people there, all commemorating his birthday. It was amazing to see the faces of these people, so utterly reverent and seemingly heart-broken. And, of course, the tears.

And through the film, the much repeated sentence: "Chopin is speaking directly to ME through his music. He is the only composer who can do so." (I'm paraphrasing here somewhat.)

One pianist (sorry, I need to get his name and the composition he played) was so articulate in describing "zal," and he demonstrated, by playing sections of this piece, just how Chopin was searching, longing, yearning, for what??? no one knows ...but then how quickly (in another section of the music) how he rebels against his hopelessness and resignation and refuses to be overtaken by it. EXTREMELY excellent...for this part alone.

But then, there are some parts that are somewhat confusing, and I wondered why she included them in the film. A modern dance interpretation was one of them (ugly!). In once particular scene, he asked a very talented young man (he played several portions of Chopin's most difficult etudes) what he would have asked Chopin if he could. The young man answered that he wished Chopin had written more etudes. What??? Was my reaction to this statement. He wrote 24 and at the age of about 19-20 and just how many etudes have you (the young man) written?? Boy, that really made me mad. But I think this fellow was sort of showing off just what and how he could play, and he was "playing" to the camera. Sotto Voce has stated that this kid must have forgotten that Chopin wrote more than 24...(the Trois Nouvelles) were obviously forgotten.

I think I already posted that I have gotten through it but will definitely need the next 5+ months to get it up to speed and as polished as best as I can. This prelude is so lovely...I haven't gotten sick of it, as I did, eventually, with the 15th. Gosh, sorry to whomever is playing this one.

Kathleen

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After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891

Dearest Kathleen: I was overwhelmed by your post in which you described Felder's Mr. Chopin...so touching, so moving and I deeply appreciate your thoughtfulness to share it with us (staying up till 3:30 a.m.! you should have been exhausted!). Indeed, you made it possible for us to “be there spiritually,” and the beauty of the pictures you’ve sent are above any comments. I can never thank you enough dear.Still, I insist that you write better than George Sand.

And thank you Mr. Felder, you look outstanding .Gosh!! I long to see your performance!

Hope all are well. I was just reading Kathleen's post about M. Chopin - something or other that Chopin refers to Sand as... the "W" word. I'm afraid he never refers to her as the "w" word - or whore. (Ah, how memory goes after one viewing...) what he does say... and I do remember, because after all - he has said it at least 300 times to my knoweldge is:

(continued from angry response to receiving her letter cutting him off...) "Do you know about her mother? Her father may have been a nobleman, but her mother had been a whore. It is no doubt that she is what she is and she does what she does because.... What kind of woman is she?"

(Then later - in fury during the G- prelude:)

"I have never cursed anyone in my life, though I should like to curse Lucrezia Floriani, and Madame George Sand..."

So, no, he never ever calls her a whore...but he is angry... and if you look carefully at his letters from this time - he very clearly makes cursing reference to Lucrezia Floriani - referring to her as Sand... so there is reason for this.

As for Liszt's biography - well - a little PR to jump on the "oh my god, how dreadful he's dead - I am in pain bandwagon..." goes a long way... fact is - Liszt was ever respectful of Chopin - most telling - in the accounts of his masterclasses later in life - when Chopin had already been dead for some 25+ years...his respect of Chopin's craftsmanship is boundless, a respect richly deserved... as for the approach to Chopin's character, Lucrezia Floriani, etc... when the book was published serially, everyone in Paris who cared was gossiping about the book as if it were a revealing portrait of Chopin. Of course Sand denied it in the end - but for me, the absolute guarantee, that there were elements in the book that did reflect Chopin's behavior as it appeared to his contemporaries, was Delacroix's reaction to the private reading at Nohant which he recounts in his diary, a place where he was never known to "lie" for PR purposes.... Delacroix knew them both very well - and if he believed that Sand's account reflected Chopin's behavior, then I'm afraid, much as I love the guy - I quite believe it too...

Doesn't make him any less of a genius - but great, sublime, supernatural abilities don't necessarily make a great man - a great artist? Well, that's another story...

Liszt on George Sand:"George Sand catches her butterfly and tames it in her cage by feeding it on flowers and nectar -- this is the love period. Then she sticks her pin into it when it struggles -- that is the congé and it always comes from her. Afterwards she vivisects it, stuffs it, and adds it to her collection of heroes for novels."

However, the pics are "gifts" from Hershey. I can't take the credit. I'm still waiting for mine to be developed!

Hersh: THANK YOU for clearing up the whore word. I KNOW that Frycek and I didn't hear you correctly, as to whom you were referring. I think you were standing by the piano at the time, and your emotional "outburst" (quite understandable) sort of covered up the "preface" of your statement.

I remember that while Sand was reading from her book to both Delacroix and Chopin, Delacroix was seething. But Chopin showed no emotion, other than seemingly to "enjoy" the story. Later on, Delacroix approached Chopin (or did he??) and wondered why Chopin was not angry at Sand's obvious reference to him. Chopin refused to let his true feelings about it be known, at that time. He seemed childishly imperious to the whole thing.

My question to you then...in Delacroix's diary (which I haven't read), did he actually confirm some of the "less than gentlemanly" behavior that Sand described.

Of course, as much as we love the man, he was no angel. But I have a very hard time accepting all or even most of what Sand wrote about him. Again, she the long-sufferring victim ,and Chopin the petulant and childish "bad guy."

I agree ..."but great, sublime, supernatural abilities don't necessarily make a great man..."

If my memory serves me correctly, very few great artists were, indeed, great men.

Thanks again, Hersh, for clearing up that particular concern. Silly as it might have seemed, it did bother us.

But it's funny. I know I would rather have someone call me a whore than refer to my mother as such. That's really the bigger insult.

Frycek: Love that Liszt!!!

Kathleen

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After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891

Kathleen - but GS's mother was, literally, a whore. And Delacroix never criticised Chopin's character in any way. He admired him enormously - as a friend and as an intellect - and never ceased to mourn him when he had gone. I've read his diary from end to end but unfortunately a very interesting year, 1848, is missing - he lost it when he was escaping Paris during the revolution.

I wouldn't say that Chopin was childishly imperious. I think the only way he could cope with the situation was to pretend not to notice. He managed to rise above it, and to resist any sort of retaliation; which is more than I could have done.

My good wishes for great luck with your exams, also, Sarah. Of course, as with most exams, luck has little to do with doing well.

So strange, MaryRose: As I was returning from a very long car trip, I was thinking the exact thing about Sand's mother. She REALLY was a whore, so Chopin's remark wasn't an insult afterall. He was calling it as it was.

But then I thought...gee, woman who sell themselves are given the worst names (reputations), but what do we call the men who avail themselves of such services? They're just considered "normal." (Or in some cases, great risk-takers.)

So glad to learn about Delacroix and his opinion of Chopin. Although he was a bit of a scoundrel himself, Chopin valued his friendship and opinion. What I find so amusing is that he wasn't upset at all that Chopin didn't care much for his painting. I think this says alot about him.

I made the mistake of ordering about 12 biographies of Chopin last year, all in the space of a month. And then tried to devour them all...in the space of a month. :rolleyes: Some stuff stuck and some didn't. I have to reread each one again, more carefully (and possibly takes notes) and finish each and every letter of Chopin's. Some I skipped over, mostly the ones where he was making all those demands of Fontana. Poor guy. But then Frycek thinks that Chopin paid Fontana for being his "go-get" person. If this is so, then I don't feel quite as sorry for him.

Katheen

_________________________
After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891

So sorry your question got buried. I do remember reading it and thought I would get back to listening to it and offerring up my opinion, but, as always, life gets in the way.

For example, it is now 11 a.m. where I live, I got up around 6:30 a.m., and I am still IN MY PAJAMAS! Going back and forth, reading and answering and posting questions seems to take up most of my morning.

Anyhow, yes I do know both concerti VERY WELL. They rank right up there with my very favorite Chopin pieces, especially the Romance sections. To say that I have listened to them over 1,000 times would not be understated.

I personally like Cortot's version better. Rubinstein's ended so abruptly and lacked passion. Whereas, Cortot let the piano rule, as it should...and I thought giving the piano reign over the orchestra was a bit daring, but OK.

However, I have Garrick Olhson's (sorry, spelling?) and I think he plays both concerti perfectly, IMHO.

I know I don't have the musical knowledge of technique and theory.....so perhaps my opinion doesn't count for much.

But you asked...so I responded. I hope more will do so.

Your questions are always so intriguing and intelligent...please keep asking them. It's what we need more of on this thread.

You go through so much trouble posting them. I would post Ohlsonn's, but I'm afraid I'd still be in my P.J.'s by dinner time. But perhaps I'll try...I will certainly make the effort.

Regards,Kathleen

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After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891

The M. Chopin concert was a pretty "big deal" for both Frycek and me. And to answer how we got invited...we simply asked!! That is...if there happened to be any extra seats...never dreaming our request would be granted. So we "won" the lottery!

Anyhow...here is a pic of the invitation (some of it anyhow).

I'm on my way to the first of 3 Beethoven concerts...his concertos 1 & 2 today, 3 & 4 on Tuesday evening and the 5th (the Emperor) next Sunday. Pretty excited. We have an absolutely gorgeous theatre downtown called The Coronado that has all the trappings and the splendor of theatres of days gone by. Gold and red velvet everywhere. I'm going to take my camera and try to get some good shots.

Maybe it will coax Hershey into coming to Rockford someday.

BTW Hersh:[/b] ...A question that I haven't been able to find a answer for. And since Mother's day is around the corner, I think it's relevant.

When Chopin was in Paris, his dear mother (whom he would never see again after the age of 19) sent him a letter asking for some money. She wouldn't tell him why she needed it and wanted to keep it a secret from Chopin's father. Do you know if he ever sent her the money? (Gosh, I hope so.) And what did she need it for?

If I've asked this question before, please excuse my lapse of memory.

Thanks...

Kathleen

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After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891

Always trying to be a woman of my word, here is the coda from concerto #2, as played by Garrick Ohlsson. Frankly, I don't hear much difference, but then my hearing isn't that great. It's pretty loud. However, I hope you can hear the difference.

Kathleen - without going into the literature to confirm, the story that I remember is a little different than the one you propose... as I remember it, it was the other way around. Chopin's mother sent money to him, and asked Chopin to never tell his father about it.

I may be twisting the story around myself, but that's how I remember it (then again, I am getting older, so the mind makes up all sorts of things...)

At any rate - it was always an issue with Chopin's father, that he worried, and annoyed Chopin as well - badgering him to "save for a rainy day" as it were... Chopin was always out of money even thoug he worked hard. After all - the belles-coiffes, the gloves, well appointed carriage, valet, elegant rooms - all these things cost money, and if one is to give the impression of royalty...one must live in this way...!

Sorry, Kathleen has it right. Chopin's mother wrote to him asking for a very specific sum, saying he could send it in installments if he needed too. She did not tell him what it was for (fear of Russian censors?) but did specify that she didn't want to worry Mikolaj about it. By then his health was failing as well. I think she needed it to pay some sort of fine or tax or perhaps get her son in law out of some sort of trouble. (The specific sum suggests this). The confidence with which she asked for it indicates that she had every expectation of his sending it especially as he was established and doing relatively well at that point. And I suppose he must have sent it, probably via his Polish exile underground, after beating every bush for some clue as to what was going on. Several years later, when Chopin was on his death bed and destitute, Justyna did send him some money to help out.

How well I know about getting older (and you, young man, are but a mere "younster," in comparison) ...and the memory fading. Ha...what memory?? :rolleyes:

Yes, I do recall Chopin asking for money and wondering what was he thinking. After all, just how many pairs of white gloves does one need? How could he ask for money from his dear parents who probably were struggling? But he was still a very young man, so I guess we have to forgive him for that.

Well, Frycek got in before I could finish posting this. Thank you...if only for confirmation that I am not losing my mind!!

On another note...I attended a concert yesterday of Beethoven's first two piano concerti. They do grow on you. Anyhow, the pianist was a young man (gosh, everyone seems to be a young man) called Alon Goldstein. Outstanding! I have never seen a concert pianist play with such joy and even fun. He was having a good time!!

The Bb was very Mozart-like. The CM more Beethoven with a touch of his teacher, Hayden. I believe these were the first concertos Beethoven composed, so he was still learning. And of course, with 3, 4, and 5, he will burst out on as his own. But, the first two (IMHO) can't hold a candle to Chopin's concertos. The piano in both is, beyond a doubt, pure genius and and spell-binding. Of course, I am just a tad prejudiced, I know. No matter how many times I've played them (a thousand, at least), I never tired of them. Why is that?

But the best thing...for an encore and as a teaser for the next concert, he played the second movement of Beethoven's 4th concerto. I swear he barely touched the keys but simply breathed on them. So delicate and lovely. And I'm thinking: "This is Beethoven?"

As I was leaving the theater, the woman in back of me said to her husband: "How beautiful." Her husband answered: "That wasn't Beethoven. It was Chopin!"

I really wanted to turn around to say how much I agreed, but I held my tongue (for once).

Regards to all...Kathleen

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After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891

Thank you Frycek for the correct information.. it is good to know that we have a walking talking encyclopedia of Chopiniana - that saves us from running back to the literature! Believe me, it is much appreciated - and yes Kathleen - this mind - much as it works, forgets and mixes up plenty!