only the flyers are deep enough down the middle to trade away their two top centers

I knew the Jackets would eb active on the trade market being a team that has to win now rather than later, and now with Nash and Carter locked up for good cap hit in the long term ,, poolies this year might be Nash's year keep an eye out!!!

"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker

40 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First)

99pickles

Posted - 06/29/2011 : 15:57:47

quote:Originally posted by slozo

99 Pickles - no one is saying they didn't get fair return by today's standards, and no one is saying that Philly didn't have tremendous depth at forward.

But players like Mike Richards and Jeff Carter are rare, and no one player they got back is the equal of either. Schenn might become equal in value to one of them, but, probably not. Same with the first rounder.

Players of that quality don't get passed around while they are in their prime very often at all . . . which is why I am surprised they did it twice in one day. But again . . . maybe they know something we don't.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug

Not sure what we are arguing about then....my statement is that they made an overall net improvement (pun intended ) regardless of how valuable Richards and Carter are. The Flyers just have so much depth at forward (and a tremendous mix as well) that it was worth getting a top tier goalie when the dust settled.

I just don't that they either took a step back, or will be anything less than a top contender for the next few seasons. I suggest they have even further improved upon the team they had the last 2 seasons aswell.

I just know from all the opinions I've seen both here and in the cyber-world that the majority of hockey enthusiasts think that the team was weakened through these moves, even going so far as to compare Holmgren to Mike Milbury.

That's all

Pasty7

Posted - 06/27/2011 : 15:45:44 i can understand the frustration obviously if Carter wanted to hiot the open market he could have go close to 2 million more per year on his contract, he clearly wanted to stay in philly and win and now he`s going to the other end of the spectrum a rebuilding team that is more than a couple big pieaces away from a serious cup run, and espcially when you asked your gm if their were any truth behind the rumours nd are told no, well that just adds fuel to the fire

"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker

Guest4312

Posted - 06/27/2011 : 14:32:44 1 reason he shouldn't be mad: going to columbus .... it's part of the business people get traded from good teams to bad teams and vice versa you make millions of dollars to score goals who cares where you do it.

2 reasons why he can be mad:a) he specifically asked about the trade rumours and was lied tob) he took a pay cut to stick with a contender and win a cup now he is getting that pay in columbus where it could be year (or never in his career) that they contend

Posted - 06/26/2011 : 08:36:40 Agreed, but i don't see how these trades make philly better in the short term. Other than the upgrade in nets, I actually think philly is a weaker team next year. Van rymsdyke better be as good as people think he is.

ryan93

Posted - 06/26/2011 : 07:41:45 I'm still surprised they traded Mike Richards. The Flyers got a good (potentially great) return though. Brayden Schenn is considered by most to be the top prospect not playing in the NHL last season, and Sean Courturier was a projected top 2 pick at the start of the season. I don't think we've seen the best of Jacub Voracek yet, and Wayne Simmonds will be a great fit in Philly. And the trades also free up the cap space to sign both Ilya Bryzgalov & Ville Leino. Even without Richards & Carter, Philly still has an impressive group of fowards.

slozo

Posted - 06/25/2011 : 18:18:09 99 Pickles - no one is saying they didn't get fair return by today's standards, and no one is saying that Philly didn't have tremendous depth at forward.

But players like Mike Richards and Jeff Carter are rare, and no one player they got back is the equal of either. Schenn might become equal in value to one of them, but, probably not. Same with the first rounder.

Players of that quality don't get passed around while they are in their prime very often at all . . . which is why I am surprised they did it twice in one day. But again . . . maybe they know something we don't.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug

99pickles

Posted - 06/24/2011 : 18:42:13 Oh, I know I'm in the minority here, but I am confident that the significant improvement on the back end was well worth forcing guys like Briere, JVR, Giroux, Leino, Versteeg to carry the load while also having some added scoring depth with Zherdev and Voracek. Add in emerging players such as Nodl and Simmonds and a blue chip in Schenn. You've also got the physical presence of Hartnell and Carcillo (he's an RFA). That's an excellent mix of forwards where I come from!

ryan93

Posted - 06/24/2011 : 18:29:57 I just skimmed through the majority of the posts, so forgive me if it's been mentioned already. But i've read a few articles today that has hinted at the Philadelphia Flyers possibly being players in the Brad Richards sweepstakes

nuxfan

Posted - 06/24/2011 : 18:14:54 I'm with Alex - a lot of changes in PHI, truth is no one knows how they'll turn out next year.

The gave up 2 extremely talented forwards, and a significant amount of their offense - not only direct offense, but indirect. How many points do players like Giroux, JVM, Leino get without the very solid play and point production of a Carter and Richards? That is a massive amount of offense to lose all at once. As Alex says, players like Giroux and JVM are going to see more time on the top lines - and are going to see better checkers, more attention paid to them. They'll see more minutes - are they ready for more minutes? Will they gel with their new forward partners in similar fashion?

Obviously I trust Holmgren to know what he's doing, but replacing your top-2 offensive players, who play in all 3 situations, is a pretty significant move. I think this is a great move for them longer-term - but next year is up in the air IMO. The first 20-30 games will tell you how it panned out.

99pickles

Posted - 06/24/2011 : 17:25:21

quote:Originally posted by Alex116

quote:Originally posted by 99pickles

Methinks Philly has finally addressed their goaltending issues once and for all!!

Unless....Bryzgalov's turn to tank??

It seems that Philly is a serious cup-contender for the next couple years now.

I disagree with this. They picked up a good goalie, but one who's not done a whole lot in the playoffs, albeit, not exactly on powerhouses. They've also dealt a guy (Carter) who`s goal totals in the last 4 years are 29, 46, 33 and 36 while also averaging around 65 points per year over that span. Throw in the dealing of Richards who`s avg`d 70+ points for the past 4 years as well as two 30+ goal seasons (and a 28) in there.

Don`t kid yourself, they`ve given up A LOT! The Flyers had better hope Giroux continues his play from this year or even improves on it as well as JVR stepping up even moreso than before. Don`t forget, these guys are gonna see better dmen checking them now as the focus of the offense!

The other thing is, they can`t expect a ton from Schenn immediately as he`s only got 9 NHL games on his resume. Not to say he won`t be the next coming of Jeff Skinner or Logan Couture, but tough to expect that of any young kid!

Looking at this, i don`t see Philly as being as strong of a contender for the next couple years as they have been the past couple.

I fully disagree with you, Alex.

I believe that they had such a deep set of forwards that they had the room to sacrifice a little there (as a net result, mind you) in order to beef up A LOT in their back end in the form of Bryzgalov. There's no reason to think they won't be as strong as they were if not better. It's amazing what reliable goaltending can do for a team. But only time will tell, right?

Guest4312

Posted - 06/24/2011 : 11:04:45 lol every thread turns to be about the leafs somehow.and i don't wanan sound too much like a jerk but burke does absolutely nothing yesterday and you guys are praising him because mike richards must have something wrong that burke telepathically found out about.... he isn't that good of a gm or that smart of a dude, just admit he didn't get the player he should have even though he had an opportunity to. If burke got mike richards yesterday none of you leaf fans would be ripping these threads apart in anger yet you rejoice when he got nothing... :S

Alex116

Posted - 06/24/2011 : 10:58:32

quote:Originally posted by 99pickles

Methinks Philly has finally addressed their goaltending issues once and for all!!

Unless....Bryzgalov's turn to tank??

It seems that Philly is a serious cup-contender for the next couple years now.

I disagree with this. They picked up a good goalie, but one who's not done a whole lot in the playoffs, albeit, not exactly on powerhouses. They've also dealt a guy (Carter) who`s goal totals in the last 4 years are 29, 46, 33 and 36 while also averaging around 65 points per year over that span. Throw in the dealing of Richards who`s avg`d 70+ points for the past 4 years as well as two 30+ goal seasons (and a 28) in there.

Don`t kid yourself, they`ve given up A LOT! The Flyers had better hope Giroux continues his play from this year or even improves on it as well as JVR stepping up even moreso than before. Don`t forget, these guys are gonna see better dmen checking them now as the focus of the offense!

The other thing is, they can`t expect a ton from Schenn immediately as he`s only got 9 NHL games on his resume. Not to say he won`t be the next coming of Jeff Skinner or Logan Couture, but tough to expect that of any young kid!

Looking at this, i don`t see Philly as being as strong of a contender for the next couple years as they have been the past couple.

It seems that Philly is a serious cup-contender for the next couple years now.

slozo

Posted - 06/24/2011 : 06:06:45 Tough to say.

I really like the direction Toronto's dressing room is going . . . and I love Mike Richards as a player, fantastic player. But the little nagging voice about why would a team let Mike Richards go just . . . won't go away.

Philly could have easily let go of Carter, not re-signed Leino, and been good to go under the cap. No need to trade Mike Richards.

Pronger and Richards butt heads in the dressing room . . . that is not a strong enough reason to trade a player, especially when Richards is the one who is captain, and Pronger wears the A, and everyone knows Pronger is a total jerk. Besides, Pronger will retire in a year or two, Richards is/was the future.

Richards butted heads with the coach. That is also not a good enough reason to let Mike Richards go. IT's a good enough reason to let go of a third line player perhaps, but not Mike Richards. Usually, if it is a serious problem, then the coach would be let go. He wasn't, so, you'd have thought it was a workable relationship.

And yet, from the sound of it, they didn't even talk to each other any more. It's odd. So . . . why wasn't the coach fired/replced? It happens all the time on the coaching carousel . . . why not now?

Because the onus of the issue MUST have necessarily been on Mike Richards. There just HAS to be some other issue . . . could be anything, who knows, but . . . something is there that we can't see.

And I have to trust that eithera) Burke saw/knows of/found out about this other issue, orb) is extremely confidant in Kadri as being a real blue chip prospect who has a great future

But who knows. It could be as some have postulated - c) Burke tries playing hardball, and the other team doesn't come back when they get offered someone they didn't think would be available, and grab the deal.

But why no coming back to Toronto to see where they are at? Again, as others have said, almost any GM would do that, even as a courtesy. But no, they just tool LA's deal.

Which says to me, in all likelihood, Burke gave them a firm answer, and said that he won't budge on it even if they come back from some other team and say they got this and that for Richards.

So I think it's a) or b).

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug

Beans15

Posted - 06/24/2011 : 05:43:28 I don't think some rumors about locker room issues changes the opinion of Richards being a prime time player. Look at the deal?? As I said, Schenn is as blue chip as they come. Simmonds is quality and a 2nd round pick. There was a big cost for LA to get Richards.

The interesting piece here is the sway of Pronger. If that was the issue, he's got more clout than a player should on a team. I think that sends a bad message to the rest of the team.

That being said, Slozo, I have to assume that if Richards was a Leaf and not a King, you could quickly over look any past issues. I know I could if he was putting on an Oilers jersey right now!

Guest2872

Posted - 06/24/2011 : 05:35:45 Both Carter and Richards have no trade clauses but they do not kick in til next summer (or some time shortly). This was another "motivator" for Holgrem to make the deals now.As a flyer fan I must say I was SHOCKED to hear about the trades. I knew that once they acquired the rights to Ilya that they had to make cap space so I was expecting the Carter move( thought for sure to T.O.) but not the Richards trade....and especially not BOTH. Too many things to discuss about this trade but I can't help but wonder if this trade would have happened at all if Bobrosky would have played even somewhat decent in the playoffs?

Guest4086

Posted - 06/24/2011 : 05:26:00 there were stories swirrling around since last season that Richards and Pronger were butting heads, and also that Richards and the coach, Laviolette, didn't have a good relationship. so i suppose for Philly's sake, if these rumours were true, and taking into account the Bryzgalov signing, the opportunity to move him was at its peak.i agree with most here. good deal for all three teams. Philly gets younger, adds a solid goalie, and sheds some major contracts. while LA and Columbus get the immediate help they were both looking for.

as for the Leafs, maybe Burke was playing hard ball a bit, but i'm kind of glad he didn't give up Kadri and Kulemin. for too long this franchise has given up on young talent such as these two, long before they're reached their potential. Kulemin has improved in each of the past two years, and Kadri hasn't even been given a legitmate chance yet. i understand the Leafs pressing need for a top line center, but there is also a long-term strategy involved, and i'm guessing with Burke these two are a part of it. and perhaps he just wasn't willing to trade them so quickly.

Alex116

Posted - 06/23/2011 : 22:28:12 nuxfan.....i still don't see how it could hurt to call Burke back and say, here's the offer i got, can you add something to your package to make it nicer? Then again, i don't know if they go around throwing names out there as to exactly who they've been offered? Maybe that's why he didn't bother as Burke woulda thought he's bluffing? I dunno, but just to hear Burke's reaction, i'd have loved for him to get the call.

One other point of note that was mentioned, was that Philly prob preferred to deal him to the West!

As far as Richards goes, no, he prob won't be captain in LA, at least not right away. Slozo mentioned something interesting in that "why" would they have traded him? Is there an underlying something that we're unaware of? I've read rumour of him being a partier? Wonder what living in LA will do to him if that's the case? They better keep an eye on him there and may just wanna keep a guy like Smyth around to help with that???

ETA.....forgot to mention that i was a little surprised that Richards didn't have a NTC or a NMC? Same for Carter i suppose, but i always thought of Richards as more of their cornerstone and thought he'd have gotten one?

nuxfan

Posted - 06/23/2011 : 22:20:37 Thanks Alex, some interesting reads there. This one really says it all for TOR fans:

quote:If deals on the table were really Schenn/Simmonds from LA or Kadri/Kulemin from TOR, I can understand why the Flyers didnít call Burke back

I have to say, I agree, and its too bad for Burke, but he simply cannot match that package from LA - not without adding someone like Luke Schenn to the deal, which he would be a fool to do. For all their desires, the Leafs don't seem to have enough in the cupboard to match the offers of some of the other teams in these blockbuster trades. Especially if Burke thinks that Kadri is going to mature into something great and is unwilling to part with him for something proven.

For all the rumours around Richards, he just might have needed a change in scenery and drop the C from his vest (I don't think he's going to be captain in LA). Phili is a hockey hotbed, and he was a young captain on a mixed team with many leaders - as much as I love Richards, it might be that he isn't cut out to be a captain yet, and didn't handle it well in PHI.

Alex116

Posted - 06/23/2011 : 21:29:46 Some interesting "tweets" on these trades and other possible trades and signings.......

just herd on TSN that Holgrem was ready to send Richards to Burke and the buds for Kadri and Kulimen, Burke said he wouldn't give up both but he would give Kadri and a 1rst rounder, Holmgrem said he'd call Burke back about it but then the offer for Schenn and Simmonds came in and Holgrem never called Burkie back,,, so Leaf fans you were ever so close to actually nabbbing Mike Richards

"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker

That's a real tough call. I can't say like you guys that Burke would do it in hindsight . . . seeing as how to me, it's a thing where Burke still has strong confidence in Kadri becoming a solid 30+ goal player. If Kadri becomes that guy, then no, I also wouldn't do the deal . . . but I totally see where you guys are coming from, and can't say much myself as a Leafs fan, It's truly one case where I put my faith in the guy who is getting paid millions to manage and know in depth how good these prospects will be, and trust Burke and his coaching staff on that call.

Yes, it is salivating . . . but need I remind you that Philly traded Mike Richards? Yes, we all know that now, sure . . . but really, why? Is there something behind the scenes?

This is a year after signing a long term deal. You know, listening to Bill Watters (usually I find him annoying, but still, I needed more news) on the radio, it was funny, as he was thinking the same thing. Not really putting out there what issue Mike Richards might have, but just saying - sometimes, there's a story behind the story, that's all.

And he told the story of how the organisation he once worked for almost traded a first rounder and a prospect for a premier puck moving defenceman from eastern europ who had a "drinking problem" - in fact, he was on special medecine for it during the season. He got the tidbit talking to a trusted friend, a day before making the deal almost - and he ended up getting out of it.

Of course, I knew right away which player from his scenario (he never named names) he was talking about, as he was once the most famous Latvian hockey player out there (I am of Latvian descent - Sandis Ozolinsh. He was a pure alcoholic, even had the medecine injected in your arm that releases poison if you drink to make you stop.

Anyways, that long story is just to make you think as I did - there is likely something behind the story here. A GM doesn't just trade in one day the two premier players he signed to long term deals a year ago just to get a good goalie.

There is something else there, I feel. And maybe, just maybe, Burke made the right call.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug

Alex116

Posted - 06/23/2011 : 21:07:20 Wow! If this is true, Burke is prob steaming right now! But why wouldn't Philly go back to him with the LA deal and try to do even better? Unless LA said, "take it or leave it, NOW" i'm a little surprised.

Pasty7

Posted - 06/23/2011 : 20:24:05

quote:Originally posted by Beans15

I am making a big assumption but I think Burke would do this deal in hindsight. Perhaps this was Burke playing hardball as he normally does and trying to get a better deal. Little did his know a better deal from another team was around the corner.

Even if Burke would have offered Kadri and Kulemin, if LA came over the top with Schenn, Simmonds, and the pick, Philly has to go that way. I mean, Schenn is as blue chip as they come.

I sure hope this isn't just one of those stories where the Leafs were this close to every deal in the NHL. It sounds legit at least.

This story came From either Mckenzie or Mguire i do not remember they were both on the panel but i do not recall which was speaking,, i was listening and wiorking at the same time,... and i agree beans i bet you Burke was playing hardball which he should and like you said L.A came over the top to match L.A Burke would have had to give at least one of his first rounders and maybe even a second aswell ...

"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker

Beans15

Posted - 06/23/2011 : 20:03:41 I am making a big assumption but I think Burke would do this deal in hindsight. Perhaps this was Burke playing hardball as he normally does and trying to get a better deal. Little did his know a better deal from another team was around the corner.

Even if Burke would have offered Kadri and Kulemin, if LA came over the top with Schenn, Simmonds, and the pick, Philly has to go that way. I mean, Schenn is as blue chip as they come.

I sure hope this isn't just one of those stories where the Leafs were this close to every deal in the NHL. It sounds legit at least.

Leafs81

Posted - 06/23/2011 : 19:41:22

quote:Originally posted by Pasty7

just herd on TSN that Holgrem was ready to send Richards to Burke and the buds for Kadri and Kulimen, Burke said he wouldn't give up both but he would give Kadri and a 1rst rounder, Holmgrem said he'd call Burke back about it but then the offer for Schenn and Simmonds came in and Holgrem never called Burkie back,,, so Leaf fans you were ever so close to actually nabbbing Mike Richards

"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker

If this is true, I'm really disapointed. Kadri is a good prospect but that's it (so far). Kulemin just reached his peak he wont get much more then 30 goals and 60 points. Mike Richards would have been a perfect fit.

I was actually thinking of that earlier what could the Leafs offered of that value to get Richards and Kulemin and Kadri came up to mind.

Pasty7

Posted - 06/23/2011 : 19:33:57

quote:Originally posted by Guest7742

la deal have anything to do with smyths words ? think it's more likely he stays or leaves now?

they re sayin if Reghr agrees to the deal to send him to Buffalo it's almost certain the Flames will be tradeing for Smyth

Posted - 06/23/2011 : 17:20:43 just herd on TSN that Holgrem was ready to send Richards to Burke and the buds for Kadri and Kulimen, Burke said he wouldn't give up both but he would give Kadri and a 1rst rounder, Holmgrem said he'd call Burke back about it but then the offer for Schenn and Simmonds came in and Holgrem never called Burkie back,,, so Leaf fans you were ever so close to actually nabbbing Mike Richards

"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker

BucketHead

Posted - 06/23/2011 : 17:00:06 L.A is wanting to win the cup this coming season or atleast get to the final, thats what i get from this. if they don't get there in two years they will have to start over.

Beans15

Posted - 06/23/2011 : 16:39:21 Not only that, Voracek is improving, Simmonds fills a 3rd line roll, and what will Schenn be able to do this year. Plus, are Lieno and Hartnell more productive if they get more minutes.

I don't see Philly slipping much at all from this deal. Only getting better over time. Richards and Carter create holes and will be missed short term. However, I still like the deal.

Really, I think I like the deal for LA more than anyone. That is a very scary team with a 2nd line scoring threat. Kopitar, Williams, Brown, Smyth, Richards are a nice 5 of 6 top forwards. Think of thier PP with Doughty and Stoll on the points and Kopitar, and Richards on the 1/2 boards and Smyth running a muck in front of the net.

LA just fill a huge hole in my opinion. It cost them with Schenn as I think he is the real deal, but Richards is also a stud and he contributes today.

Pasty7

Posted - 06/23/2011 : 16:16:13

quote:Originally posted by Guest4312

59 goals scored by carter and richards last year. you can argue that philly won't have to score as much with bryzgalov but still

yeah but there were tied for 3rd in points for phily... Briere and Giroux scored more,, plus JVR started the breakout late last year it should carry over to next season a lot like Giroux

"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker

Guest4312

Posted - 06/23/2011 : 15:42:16 59 goals scored by carter and richards last year. you can argue that philly won't have to score as much with bryzgalov but still

Guest4312

Posted - 06/23/2011 : 15:38:55 are these trades the biggest since joe thornton to san jose?

Guest4312

Posted - 06/23/2011 : 15:36:19 i wouldn't say dynasty... they will definitely compete year in and year out. look at it this way: pronger and timonen are both 37 years old to start next season... will they still be the same players by the time any of the 3 draft picks can make a considerable contribution to the team.. the answer is no. for the time being this trade was 2 elite centermen for simmonds and schenn....they will have major cap issues in a couple years guaranteed and find themselves in the exact same spot they are now.

Beans15

Posted - 06/23/2011 : 15:32:38 I think this is a testament to how deep of a team Philly is. I mean, they had (before the trades) 14 players born during or after 1984. Now, they move 2 players age 26 and pick up 3 players under the age of 25 with skill, 3 draft picks, and a legitimate #1 keeper??

This is not just a short term deal, this has the makings of a dynasty type of team. Not saying it will happen, but this is a pretty impressive framework for the future.

Guest4312

Posted - 06/23/2011 : 15:28:24 i would agree with the last comment made that philly isn't done yet.... more moves to come as they still seem to be missing something

Leafs81

Posted - 06/23/2011 : 15:17:39 Wow this is huge. I understand why they traded Carter and I think this is a really good trade for both teams. But their captain Richards also????? I am shocked. Philadelphia gave a pretty big contract to Bryzgalov (9 years-51 millions) and they still have to resign Voracek and Simmonds because they are RFA. And next season Versteeg and JVR will be RFA's and they will ask a raise (maybe not Versteeg). Plus Leino is a UFA. Not counting that in a few years Brayden Schenn will be in that class too. I smell big trouble for Philadelphia in the coming years.

I don't think they needed all those drastic changes in order to get a good goalie. They could have went after Vokoun who could have been cheaper. or waited for other options.

Philadelphia could look scary in a couple of years with all that young talent up front, or they could be in trouble for money. Right now , according to nhlnumbers.com they have 1.5 million in cap space and they have 8 forwards signed. Plus Simmonds, Voracek and Leino are not in that list of 8 forwards.

I don't think I like those trades for Philly and I think there's more coming from them.

slozo

Posted - 06/23/2011 : 15:05:16 Wow. Jawdropper . . . not that Carter was dealt, not even that Mike Richards was dealt . . . but BOTH dealt?!? Crazy.

One year after signing both to long term deals, THE VERY SAME GM deals them off.

Pretty good return. Hard to tell right now with the picks and obviously the big promise in Schenn.

Had to comment before running off again . . . sad to see the opportunity of both of those premier centres leaving, but I have to think (from a Toronto perspective) that Burke has plan B, C, D and E up his sleeve.

Also makes sense for Holmgren to deal those players far away, and obviously Schenn was a coveted piece for Philly.

Wow.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug

Pasty7

Posted - 06/23/2011 : 14:58:37

quote:Originally posted by nuxfan

I'm not sure what this leaves for PHI down the middle. Briere is a natural centre and will surely become their #1 centre - but what after that? JVR, Leino, Giroux, Versteeg, Voracek are not centres (although this makes PHI pretty deep on the wing). Schenn is a centre, so I'm assuming that they think he'll make the jump this year. Perhaps PHI uses the CBJ pick to try and draft a centre...

I don't know...thats a lot of centre talent to lose.

i believe JVR is a natural center when he was drafted and just converted to left wing,, but Grioux is a center converted i know that forsure,, so they will still have two very good on the cusp of elite centers in Giroux and Briere