Kenny, welcome to the podcast this week. I appreciate you making
some time to join us. Hey, thanks craig. I appreciate what you're
doing with this. Right on. Can you tell us a little bit about your
background as a cyclist and where you do most of your riding these
days? I was lucky enough to grow up in the South Bay, Santa Clara I
started riding a mountain bikes just after high school. The
technology was getting better at that point in time, so quickly
moved into downhill style of riding, but back then you know, you
kind of did everything. You raced cross country on Saturday and
then race downhill on Sunday on the same bike. Nice. So with that
background, it's interesting that you discovered gravel riding.
When did that come into play for you? I originally discovered a
cyclocross bikes back in those early days. We were lucky enough in
that area over in Santa Cruz. They had a great little cyclocross
series. It started, funny enough, I started racing my mountain bike
and those in, in this series before I really got underway with my
mountain biking racing. Yeah, it's, it's funny. I did a little, a
few of those series back in the day as well, and I remember Santa
Cruz was the only place where I felt like I needed a cross bike
because the, there was really a pure scene down. There were when
you were riding the mountain bike, people were like, Hey, you
should get on a cross bike. It's a little bit different of a sport.
That's where I started to get excited about the idea of a cross
bike, but being a poor college student and trying to work part time
jobs to fuel my addiction. Did you eventually get on a cantilever
cyclocross bike? I did, yeah, it was five or six years after I
first raced in those surf city events that I was able to. I started
working in the bike industry. I worked for a titech back in the
day. Their sister company was Voodoo cycles, so I was able to get
one of their frames and slowly cobble it together with old road and
some mountain bike parts. Yeah, it's interesting. I think a lot of
us in the gravel scene started out with cyclocross bikes many years
ago and at least for me, I found with a mountain bike background I
was overriding the cyclocross bike and with the cantilever brakes
and tubes, tires. I would flat all the time and ultimately I ended
up selling off all my cyclocross gear just because I was frustrated
it wasn't capable of doing the type of writing I envisioned for it.
Yeah, well I tried probably like yourself. I tried to get out and
explore some of my favorite smoother mountain bike terrain and mix
it up with some road. But like you, you know, I experienced not
only the howling brakes in inclement weather. But you'd have to
bring a couple tubes for even one ride. And the tires were limited
in size too. I think there were a few companies making a little bit
larger sized, uh, tires, but I remember that first cross bike that
I had had pretty limited clearance. You know, maybe a 35 would fit
in it. So drilling into the equipment a little bit more. I know
from your experience working with Debbie to be, you know, a lot
about tires. Can you talk a little bit more specifically about
tires for gravel riding and racing and what you recommend and what
you've experienced? I think that it all starts with the bead of the
tire. Um, you hear you hear mountain bikers and now road cyclists
talking about tubeless compatibility and I think starting with,
with the bead of the tire and how it interfaces with you, you can
either be very safe or, or risk a, what we call burping or, or
dislodging the tire and losing, losing air pressure starting there
and getting that dialed was paramount for Wilderness Trail Bikes.
You know, we learned a lot from, from the technology Is WTB
offering both 650b and 700 cc? We are, we have a multitude of
sizes. 650, we started off with the plus size tires, which, which
are, you know, upwards of 47 millimeter bead to bead, which is
pretty sizable tire, I think that works out to be about a one point
eight or one point nine equivalent in, uh, in mountain bike sizing.
But now we're doing a [inaudible], so a little bit smaller diameter
options for the [inaudible] rider. And then we have everything from
a 30 to see 700 see tire up to a 45. So, so a huge, huge amount of
range and room for different, different riding conditions, you
know, even even cross racing, the tubeless compatibility allows,
you know, for a long time you heard tubulars were the go to for
racers and, and, and I think they will always be there for, for the
hardcore a cross racer, but a tubless e compatibility. Has allowed
you to take some of that technology and get some of that suppleness
uh, without the painstaking process of gluing on to being a, to get
that, that, you know, nice cush ride or a ultimate traction for
coroners to bliss. Compatibility will give you most of that at a
fraction of the cost and uh, and also be equally or more say, send
your tubular tire options. How has WTB addressed mixed terrain
riding in its tread patterns? We've tried to come up with the same
strategy that we used for mountain biking in that you have, you
have tires that roll fast, you know, they typically have a low
profile center center Knob, um, but, but you usually will always
want a very positive engagement with, with the ground on your, on
your intermediate and edge knobs. So we've, we've taken that and
applied it to the, to the gravel side of things too, you know, and
when, when mud is introduced or wet, wet climate, you want a little
bit more with some open spaces in between. We've come up with an
option that's still rolls fast on the pavement. But uh, the
intermediate niche knobs have a little bit more space between them
so the mud can clear and you get positive engagement with the
ground. Yeah. There's certainly a lot to think about with tire
selection. When you think about the types of events you may have
done over the last 12 months, at least for me, I think I could have
selected a different tire for each one based on the terrain. I
think that's the beauty of, of gravel riding. I mean typically, um,
if you've road raced or you know, have done a fondo or something
or, or if you go to the other side talk about mountain biking, you
very rarely look back at your equipment and what you could have
done better there. It's usually, you know, the training aspect and
with gravel you almost always come up with a few things that you
could've done different with your equipment. Whether it's, you
know, bigger, bigger, tougher tires for the rough or sections of
the course or lower profile, sleeker, lighter tires for the, for
the road segments or, or the smoother fire road, dirt sections.
You're always kind of analyzing and going back and yeah, I always
tend towards the fat or rubber just because I'm out there for an
adventure. But I often look longingly at some guy with 700 c narrow
tires cranking up a hill on is super lightweight bike, but at the
same token, I know payback's going to be a bitch and I'm going to
be ripping by him with my 650 b's on all the descents. It is one of
those fascinating parts of our gravel riding and it makes it a lot
of fun. And I think you sort of look over with a wink knowing that
at a certain point your equipment's going to be superior to someone
else's. And vice versa. I think when you're in doubt, you know,
going, going a little tougher or, or larger diameter tire is, is
always the best bet. But, um, it is funny how you look over at a,
at a lighter weight set up and whether it be mile 70 year or up a
grueling climb, you know, kind of wish that you had that. Just for
that one section. Yeah. I think until the industry got the vision
for more adventurous riding, the necessity to put wider tires on
those bikes really wasn't there over the last five years, five, six
years. I think we've seen an explosion in frame builders in larger
companies building those bikes that can accommodate this type of
riding. Was there a particular bike in your quiver that really kind
of opened your eyes to what that ideal adventure bike would look
like? Absolutely. So fast forward, probably five or six years ago,
I purchased, an IBIS HAKLUGI their first model with disc brakes and
quickly got tubeless ready, tubeless compatible tires in around the
40 size tipping point for me. I was able to go farther, longer with
no mechanicals and superior braking. Allowed me to to go back and
retrace my roots and ride some of the stuff that, that I enjoyed on
a mountain bike while while doing it on the cross or gravel bike.
Yeah, it's interesting. I think the type of equipment we're riding
these days, it's subtly different but in really powerful
performance ways and it's almost confusing to my friends who don't
ride gravel on these types of bikes to understand how much terrain
is opened up, whether it's just being able to ride slightly more
technical terrain because of the wire, wider tires or creating
these mixed terrain loops. So I'm curious, have you been an
advocate in your friend group around gravel cycling and what's been
the response as you started to get more excited about it?
Absolutely, yeah. They uh, you know, your, your hardcore mountain
bike or road friends typically will make, make fun of you, but you
know, usually it's, it's getting them out on a bike that, that is
equipped with the technology. We're talking about the tubeless
ready tires, lower pressures on those tires. And then also a disc
brakes. I think once they get on a, on a machine like that, they
realized the potential that that's really. I think that's the
gateway. Yeah, exactly. I think, I think until they've given it a
try, as you said, an opened up sort of a big loop that wasn't
possible on a pure mountain bike. That and trying out some of these
new events that are cropping up I think has been huge because the
community element of the gravel riding and racing community I think
is just unmatched in other disciplines right now. Can you talk a
little bit about how the community has come into play for you in
gravel riding? I guess it was close to a decade ago, I started
going out and riding the grasshopper series, which is probably one
of the first adventure bike events that I was ever privy to. You
know, a lot of the events you can do on a road bike or mountain
bike, but usually the the gravel or cross bike would be the perfect
go between where you can literally do any of their events on a, on
a gravel bike and not be hindered with either the weight of a
traditional mountain bike or a limited tire size and breaking of
have a road bike. That's grasshopper events I think are this
amazing combination of you've got a bunch of ex pro's racing at the
front, but the whole day is community oriented. Afterwards,
everybody's hanging out and enjoying a beer or two. A. It just
makes a great day out. Yeah. You realize how cool the cycling
community can be. You get people from, you know, such a, such a
diverse background, not only at the pro level with, with different
disciplines, but just, you know, all walks of life. Bike is, is the
great medium to bring all those people together. It really, uh, you
know, the, the events themselves are amazing and you to see more
terrain in a day than you typically would out on a ride. Spending a
little time after the event and and talking to people that really
brings, I guess the element of friendship, camaraderie and the
larger northern California community together. Yeah. It reminds me
of the early days of mountain bike racing where people would camp
at the event and everybody would hang out together. And it just was
about racing and riding new terrain. I remember growing up in the
mid Atlantic, I would specifically sign up to race because I wanted
to see what it was like racing in Virginia Virginia and having
someone lay out a course for me and knowing there was going to be a
bunch of like minded cyclists around. Just made it an obvious way
to spend the weekend. Good way to keep yourself healthy and, and
expand your network of trails and uh, and you know, possibly meet
some new friends along the way that, uh, you know, have the same,
same goals and you know, possibly ride some new terrain with them
along the way. Yeah. So you recently decided to put on a event of
your own. What inspired this? Well, it's been something I've wanted
to do for quite awhile. I now live full time in Auburn, California.
I have discovered the, uh, the gravel riding is really second to
none here and the in the area is, you know, rich with history not
too far away from where gold was discovered in the, in the area
and, or, you know, really they were developed, um, from gold miners
going, going into these canyons and I'm using some of this, uh,
some of these roads, fire roads and trail to show people what we
have in this region. Awesome. Were you designing it with a specific
type of bike in mind? Did you want it to be on the more tactical
side of gravel riding more fire roads? What's, what's the mix
you're shooting for? I wanted to try to, to create a mix, you know,
a little bit of everything. I initially started writing this stuff
when I was training for the lost and found a gravel event up in the
Sierra Nevada and then just started expanding my road rides into
these areas and then utilizing some of the trails that I have
written for many years on my mountain bike, kind of getting a, you
know, the perfect balance of painful for your upper body, you know,
single track riding and then you know, being able to jump out on
the road and stretch out and maybe grab, grab a quick bite to eat
and then, and then back into the dirt for a, you know, a nice long
bus team climb to, to experience some of the, some of the views
that we have around here. Yeah. For those of you who haven't been
to auburn, it's a spectacular part of northern California and I,
I've sampled a little bit of the trail system that I'm really
looking forward to getting up there and having you map out an epic
day on the bike for us. Yeah, I think I have a good one in store
for us. The event's going to be April 28th. It's the Auburn Dirt
Fondo and I think I've pretty much nailed the route. I've kind of
gone back and forth with a eliminating some of the busier roads and
uh, and trying to make, you know, the return back to Auburn as
memorable as possible, you know, and, and being void of traffic. I
think only helps that. Any other tips and tricks you have for our
listeners who are going to get prepared for the event? Yeah, I
would say if you're usually tires are a part of your bikes. That's
in question and I would say typically the bigger the better, but
you can, you can run a little bit faster rolling a tire for this
event depending on what the weather throws at us, you know, usually
April is a beautiful here. Well, like any adventure, it wouldn't be
as much fun if we knew everything that was going to be in front of
us. Absolutely. A little bit of a little bit of tacky dirt and
some, uh, would, would only benefit the event. I'll get the
registration information into the show notes when we publish and
make sure everybody knows how to get in touch with you and register
for the event. Excellent. I appreciate that. So you mentioned a few
other gravel events that you've done. Are there a few that stand
out that you'd like to recommend to our listeners? Well, definitely
the Lost and Found. They also put on Grinduro, which is a fun new
event. Kind of a little different format. I really liked the lost
and found because it's a hundred miles of terrain that you
typically wouldn't get too. That sounds great. It's a, is it a
particularly fast course, You know, every year has been a little
bit different, but they're, they're kind of bringing it back to,
uh, to bring the speed of the event of last year was, you know, we
here in California, northern California, we had a pretty serious
winter, so, so the roads took a beating. It was quite a bit tougher
on, on a drop bar bike and almost made it, you know, kind of a hard
tail, 29 or a fair for the fast guys. I think this year will be
quite a bit faster if I remember correctly, the first year I did it
for the first four hours of the race. This is a hundred mile race.
For the first four hours we averaged over 20 miles an hour. I'm
guessing that they'll probably get back to that. That's exciting.
Yeah. I think it's interesting as course, designers think about how
they want to push the limits of the equipment and endurance.
There's such a balance between the type of riding, the speed of
writing, the amount of vertical feet you're going to be climbing.
That really makes course design and art A little bit of a rough
terrain is always exciting to challenge yourself on, on a drop our
bike. But if you get miles on end of rough terrain it could be, you
know, fairly abusive on your upper body. So it's kind of nice to
have, you know, maybe a little spattering of that. But when the
speeds high and you're utilizing, you know, broken pavement, fire
roads with a little single track mixed in, I think that's, that's a
pretty good mix. The sport has a lot of different opportunities in
it for athletes and I think it's diverging a little bit. You've got
these big ultra endurance events that are more akin to the hundred
Mile Mountain bike races that were popular like Leadville, 100 or
24 hour racing. And on the other side of the spectrum you've got
these shorter, punchier faster races that are emerging. Do you have
any thoughts on which direction you see the sport going or do you
think it has room for all these types of events? You think that
there's, there's enough room for all these types of events? You
know, I mentioned grinder, Oh, and this is an event that's about 60
miles in length, but you're only, you have time segments within,
uh, within the event. So you ended up doing about 30 or 40 minutes
of racing through something like four or five different stages, so,
so it allows you to go full gas if you want to through the time
sections, but hang back with your friends or your wife or
girlfriend or, or vice versa, them wait for you and you know, talk
about the, the stages coming up, the stages prior. It kind of
really, you know, builds that camaraderie. I really did enjoy the
format for exactly the reasons you described. I'm curious if more
companies that event producers are going to start going that route
to really enforce the idea that we're a community and riding with
your friends can mean riding with slower friends as well as faster
friends. Yeah, I think, uh, these types of events as well as, you
know, the, the event that I'm putting on, I'm just doing a, an epic
ride that, you know, if you, if you want to erase it, you can or if
you want to, you know, put in, put in some hard efforts on, on
climbs or whatever, but then wait for your friend. Yeah. And at the
end of the day at the Auburn Dirt Fonda, are we going to have a
barbecue or some other type of festival atmosphere? Absolutely.
We're, we're, we're going to be starting and finishing from
Moonraker brewing company. We're lucky enough here to start and
finish from there and pretty much jump right on. I'm right on
trail. Um, and then we take off on our day and get up into the
Sierra foothills and Sierra mountains. Pretty fortunate to, uh, to
be able to start and finish there. We'll have a food truck and
probably some live music as well. Well that sounds awesome. I
appreciate all the time today talking to us, the Auburn Dirt Fondo
on April 28th. Should be on everybody's bucket list for this year.
Thanks again Kenny. Oh, no problem. Thanks for having me on your
podcast and I appreciate your time.

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About the Podcast

The Gravel Ride is a cycling podcast where we discuss the people, places and products that define modern gravel cycling. We will be interviewing athletes, course designers and product designers who are influencing the sport. We will be providing information on where to ride, what to ride and how to stay stoked on gravel riding.