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Re: The reason the Leaf gave up Hizashi Hyuga

Originally Posted by leafeater

Why Itachi won't show (Someone speculated this might happen):
I'm not sure who asked about Itachi, but he would not intervene. It would blow his whole cover and everything. It might even lead to losses on the Leaf side because they'd think they were being attacked at first. It doesn't make sense. Sasuke was supposed to grow and hate him in order grow stronger, gain an MS, and eventually kill him to be a hero of Konoha. That was Itachi's plan. Leaving Akatsuki briefly like that might even endanger Sasuke. Alternatively, returning to Konoha might be viewed by Danzou as breaking the contract, and endangering Sasuke. Itachi doesn't play.

Well I tend to disagree with this. If konoha is attacked, Sasuke is in a lot of danger knowing him. And Itachi is very smart he won't try to blow his cover. He might (1) find an excuse to attack cloud village (i.e. heard rumors about eight tails being unprotected in the village of whatever) or (2) convince some of the akatsuki that this is the best chance to grab the eight and ninetails, so that would mean interfering between the two villages and quite possibly killing some of the strongest shinobi on both sides, as long as it meant stopping the war.

Re: The reason the Leaf gave up Hizashi Hyuga

Originally Posted by psukkar

Well i just mentioned the databooks becuase kishi wirtes them.

Anyway besides you don't need things in writing to tell the cloud village at the moment are strongest. They have the prefect host in control of the 2nd strongest tailled beast. They also had another host the two tailed host which showed good control as he was also able to turn into beast mode like bee also.

Also they have arguably the strongest kage during the time, the stone kage is also powerful but much older.

Also during the kage summit the stone kage commented on why villages over the years have used a mercenary team like absuki for missions like the sand and stone villages.

This was in rebuttle to the riakage's statement they are all to blame for the absuki's growth in power such as amassing money which was their first stage of their plan. The stone kage replied the other villages used absuki to combat the cloud village's many attempts to gain more power in a time where the other villages were in disarmament.

As you can see the cloud village is ahead of the rest strngth wise becuase they have been working on gaining more power for years up to now. All the history of the cloud village kishi has shown us recently is his way of saying the cloud village has been amassing for years, here are some clear examples

1)trying to capture the fox before madara even had it, The gold and silver brothers got powerful in the event.
2) The cloud have the 5 sacred relics
3) Killed the 2nd hokage
4) Trying to control the 8 tails multiple times with 100% control
5) Trying to steal the byukgan

The list goes on and on.

This matches up with what kishi worte in this databooks years ago.

Give the village the praise it deserves. It is the the strongest without a doubt there history shows that they were amassing power while other villages were not. And with the decline of konoha losing all its strongest kages and key characters like some sannin members liek orochimaru and jiraiya and tsende wasn't always in the vlilage during that time, what do you expect.

I thought I did. I forgot about the 2-tails, by the way. At the time though, the KinGin brothers would be dead. Personally I think the Cloud may have more members at the top but they seem to lack depth and diversity (part of that is the story following the Leaf not the Cloud, so we're biased). As well the Leaf have Shikaku and Inoichi such that I think strategy and clan diversity can trump power. Something doesn't add up to me as to why there wasn't a war. I wrote more at the end on this specifically, but the ball was in the Cloud's court on whether to go to war and they declined, so I wonder why.

A lot, if not it all, depends on the Cloud's and Leaf's strategies. If A and Bee come together, it's a major problem, separated it's possible. Really, the Leaf are the best suited to fight Jinchuuriki I would think due to their prior relations with the Uzumaki and their Fuuinjutsu.

Ultimately, war is prohibitively costly to both sides, so I don't see either side finishing the war. I see it ending in a stalemate and peace treaty, which the Cloud obviously has no respect for based on prior actions. Neither side has a game breaker like Minato was in the 3rd war. There's the Jinchuuriki, but they can be contained; otherwise, why would the Cloud not go to war? They have to have had a reason. I don't think if they really wanted war that they would've been satisfied with a Hyuuga corpse with a destroyed Byakuugan.

Your post did an excellent job at illustrating the power of the Cloud and the Leaf's weakness's at that specific time.

What I don't get is if/why they ever thought that their plan to get Hinata would work since the Hyuuga compound is actively guarded by branch members with the Byakuugan and then main house members making it nearly impregnable to get Hinata and get out. Further, if they knew that would fail, why were they satisfied with a substitute Hiashi (it's not like Hiashi has gone into hiding, so they know they got ripped off, granted he may have for a short while) with a nonfunctional Byakuugan instead of war. If they were so much more powerful where they could go to war and win or draw, why not take a Byakuugan off a dead main house member as a spoil of war, like Ao in the Mist.

Peace

Originally Posted by BigTDogg220

First let me say psukkar and leafeater awesome stuff. You filled in all the gaps I left brilliantly. The Leaf just wouldn't be able to defeat the Hidden Cloud if they all came to fight, but if A and Killer Bee remained in the Cloud and he just sent a force lead by Darui and some others than the Leaf could win. It's just hard to imagine the Leaf defeating the Cloud then even if Jiraiya and Tsnaude were there.

I have to agree with leafeater that Itachi and the other Uchiha would show because they were still the leaders of ANBU. I wonder how much weaker Itachi was at that point though. You have to figure Shisui was still alive so Itachi hadn't yet gained his mangekyou sharingan, so while he'd be extremely valuable he wouldn't be the mangekyou sharingan Itachi we're familiar with.

Thanks, I'll need to edit that.

I messed up the timeline Itachi actually and the Uchiha. I forgot that at that point, 8 years prior to their coup de 'etat, they were all present. Itachi's genjutsu (no MS), Shisui's body flicker and mind control, then the rest.

If Jiraiya came there with his sage mode, he would be immensely helpful if for now other reason than he would command the Raikage's attention and freeing up Hiruzen. That's having two Kage level ninja on your side at once.

I apologize, I've been mixing up the timeline on this thread. Thus, @Anub, you make a sound argument, but my entire Itachi statement was wrong, and I've removed it. I wrote it when I was eating, not sure what that matters lol.

Re: The reason the Leaf gave up Hizashi Hyuga

Originally Posted by leafeater

If Jiraiya came there with his sage mode, he would be immensely helpful if for now other reason than he would command the Raikage's attention and freeing up Hiruzen. That's having two Kage level ninja on your side at once.

Good point if Jiraiya showed up in Sage Mode only the Raikage and Killer Bee would have what it takes to deal with him. I wonder if the Frog genjutsu would be fast enough to immobilize the Raikage even at his lightning speed. Jiraiya may not be able to keep up with the Raikage's speed, but keeping his guard up he could allow the toads to get in sync for their genjutsu. If the frog genjutsu works on the Raikage then the Leaf could win in a devastating conflict for both villages.

Re: The reason the Leaf gave up Hizashi Hyuga

The hidden cloud was probably stronger, hell even the stone village, but i still think konaha was the smartest village of them all, hence the raikage's comment about konoha's superiority in strategy/intellegence.And if push came to shuff, the leaf would have showed a lot of heart, and they still had S-level ninjas like the third and danzo(those two alone could take on A and bee), and brilliant minds like shikaku and Inoichi.Shino's clan which could infiltrate all the the attackers with poison, look what tu did to madara's arm.They had two of the three doujutsus.Plus, they naturally have defenses. Of course, there would be casualties on both sides....
And part of the brilliance of konoha is knowing when to be aggressive and when an exchange is necessary, for the peace and safety, of the shinibo world.Believe me, if anyone thought they could overtake konoha, they would have.It would have to be an inside job, and then take on the village while it slept.We saw that with Orochimaro, under the chunnin exams.Oro was a genious, and he knew that nobody would expect the kazekage to be overtaken by a snake.
Finally, i think it is only positive, and among the only good things about the war, that we see what the other villages are capable of, and i hope the stone village is next.
This way you eliminate the ignorant people, who thinks that konoha is invincible and the other villages are weak(because they have never seen what lies behind teh wall of konaha).

Re: The reason the Leaf gave up Hizashi Hyuga

After seeing more and more about the Hidden Cloud Village it becomes readily apparent why the Leaf gave up Hizashi Hyuga...once Minato died the Hidden Cloud was stronger than the Leaf.

Just comparing who was around for the Leaf it would be extremely difficult to beat the Cloud village and even if they did the losses would have been enormous. The Leaf's finest at that point were the 3rd, Kakashi, Hiashi, Hizashi, Guy, Shikaku, Inochi, Chouza, Asuma, Yamato and that was about it in the village (obviously Jiraiya and Tsnaude were both still alive, but not living in the village). While they are all strong in their own right, the Leaf would have no answer to Raikage's speed and strength and Killer Bee's control of the 8 tails.
I know someone may argue that the 3rd could use Reaper Death Seal on Raikage or Killer Bee, but let's be real Raikage was far too fast to be caught by it and the 3rd would have the same problem as the 4th that the 8 tails is too powerful to fully seal away with Reaper Death Seal.

So to avoid the devastation maybe even the total destruction of the Leaf, they gave up Hizashi.

They would have suffered but they would'nt have lost. Raikage, while immensely strong, is no Pain and the entire uchiha clan was alive at that point. Think Itachi had his MS back then, even if he did'nt Shisui with his doryuko and the sharingan's genjutsu would have been potent weapons against the Raikage. If it were Itachi with MS konoha would win no questions asked, i mean what does A do to counter tsukiyomi?

Re: The reason the Leaf gave up Hizashi Hyuga

Originally Posted by cyborg

They would have suffered but they would'nt have lost. Raikage, while immensely strong, is no Pain and the entire uchiha clan was alive at that point. Think Itachi had his MS back then, even if he did'nt Shisui with his doryuko and the sharingan's genjutsu would have been potent weapons against the Raikage. If it were Itachi with MS konoha would win no questions asked, i mean what does A do to counter tsukiyomi?

The manga made it seem that Itachi got the mangekyou sharingan from killing Shisui so I doubt he'd have the mangekyou. Tsukiyomi would be a non issue along with any other mangekyou techniques. Raikage is no Pain, but he's stronger than all the Pain bodies than Deva Pain.

Re: The reason the Leaf gave up Hizashi Hyuga

Originally Posted by BigTDogg220

The manga made it seem that Itachi got the mangekyou sharingan from killing Shisui so I doubt he'd have the mangekyou. Tsukiyomi would be a non issue along with any other mangekyou techniques. Raikage is no Pain, but he's stronger than all the Pain bodies than Deva Pain.

Asuma had wind element. He might have given Raikage some trouble. Granted we didn't get to see much of him but he was one of the 12 guardians for nothing.

Itachi was still young at the most a chunin. Itachi joined acedemy at 7 and passed at 8. He joined anbu at the age of 11 year, the day Sasuke (6-7?) joined academy. That means he should be around 4-5years older than Sasuke.

So we have Shisui ( he was older that Itachi) , Itachi's father and other Uchihas. Kakshi, Guy, Danzou etc and rest of the KOnoha clan. Sarutobi was an able leader.

Re: The reason the Leaf gave up Hizashi Hyuga

Originally Posted by BigTDogg220

The manga made it seem that Itachi got the mangekyou sharingan from killing Shisui so I doubt he'd have the mangekyou. Tsukiyomi would be a non issue along with any other mangekyou techniques. Raikage is no Pain, but he's stronger than all the Pain bodies than Deva Pain.

How can he be stronger than someone who brings ppl back from the dead or absorbs all ninjutsu attacks? And there is'nt conclusive evidence if Shisui was'nt already killed at the time this Hizashi incident occured or not. Nejji was a kid almost the same age as Sasuke was when the Shisui incident occured so its possible

Re: The reason the Leaf gave up Hizashi Hyuga

Originally Posted by cyborg

How can he be stronger than someone who brings ppl back from the dead or absorbs all ninjutsu attacks? And there is'nt conclusive evidence if Shisui was'nt already killed at the time this Hizashi incident occured or not. Nejji was a kid almost the same age as Sasuke was when the Shisui incident occured so its possible

Re: The reason the Leaf gave up Hizashi Hyuga

Originally Posted by cyborg

Nah, not really. They were almost the same age at the times i described.

Well You are right. There is really not exact way to pin point the date of Itachi that easily. There are some discepencies as well. I had read at the Naruto wiki though. During the fight against Asuma and Kurenai etc. Kakshi warns that this guy became ANBU captain at 13. While the day Sasuke joins the academy his father was excited that Itachi was going to joiin ANBU and had forgotten about Sasuke till Itachi reminded him.

Re: The reason the Leaf gave up Hizashi Hyuga

Originally Posted by cyborg

How can he be stronger than someone who brings ppl back from the dead or absorbs all ninjutsu attacks? And there is'nt conclusive evidence if Shisui was'nt already killed at the time this Hizashi incident occured or not. Nejji was a kid almost the same age as Sasuke was when the Shisui incident occured so its possible

Different set of strength. Someone who brings others back from the dead is extremely useful, but easy to kill. The one who absorbs ninjutsu wouldn't fair well against a primary taijutsu user in Raikage. We don't know exactly when Shisui was killed but I doubt it was more than a year or two before. Sasuke was 7 during the massacre and he's the same age as Hinata. Hinata was kidnapped at 3. http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/102/6

Originally Posted by isthatnecessary

Asuma had wind element. He might have given Raikage some trouble. Granted we didn't get to see much of him but he was one of the 12 guardians for nothing.

Itachi was still young at the most a chunin. Itachi joined acedemy at 7 and passed at 8. He joined anbu at the age of 11 year, the day Sasuke (6-7?) joined academy. That means he should be around 4-5years older than Sasuke.

So we have Shisui ( he was older that Itachi) , Itachi's father and other Uchihas. Kakshi, Guy, Danzou etc and rest of the KOnoha clan. Sarutobi was an able leader.

Asuma is also snail slow compared to Raikage so I wouldn't say he could even touch Raikage.