Just a note:These "other black belts" were likely karate black belts, not "sword" black belts. So as long as someone looked decent and could cut, they would be ok with these guys. especially if they were "mcdojo blackbelts".

I know a great many karate teachers who pick up a sword, stand in a karate stance and swing the sword like it's a baseball bat. And other karate teachers think they're great. Real "sword people" think they're idiots.

I don't think Dana Abbott is as bad as these guys. There is useful information on the videos and he has some skills.BUT..What you should do next is perhaps find a "real" Toyama Ryu school and perhaps watch a class or demo. I guarantee you it will look very similar. But there will be something in the technique and the power of the cutting that you may not visually identify, but you will just sit there and say WOW.

There is a certain amount of hype in the selling of all books and videos. So I don't really care so much about the Kyoshi title and other things on the cover. I wouldn't even tell someone that the videos are a waste of money.

For a beginner, they may very well get you through the first year of training if you don't have access to a higher level teacher (and providing you don't cut your fingers off).

But for someone able to train with not only a Toyama Ryu instructor (or any style if Toyama Ryu is not available) these are probably not even going to be good reference material.

CXT and Charles were able to say what I was thinking better than I could (good job ) so I dont have much to add to this thread.

All I have to say is that I have been to chanbara seminars from Dana Abbot and loved every minute.. but to me chanbara and toyama ryu are two very different things.. and if I'm doing serious training, especially from someone who is teaching a tameshigiri lesson, I'm absolutly gonna make sure they have proper lineage/training and know what they are doing.

Goshindo was founded in 1969 by tanabe sensei who is a hanshi 9th dan in toyama ryu as well as a 6th dan in kendo, 7th dan in Jukendo and 6th dan in Tankendo ( Japanese Bayonet fighting ) Hataya started under Tanabe sensei in the early 1970's not only learning toyama, but Chanbara as well.... Hataya and Tanabe are still on good terms and Hataya has even done chanbara esque sparring with Many high ranked toyama sensei including Tony Alvarez Sensei who is vice prez of the Batto Fed in the US. It is not the exact same, but it is not hard to tell that it is a good 80% pure chanbara..

Abbott Sensei: Started in Kendo in the 80's in the Nihon Taiiku Daigaku getting his shodan. Not to many years later he started under tanabe sensei. By the time he came back to the US in 1998 he had been under tanabe for the better part of 10 years.

His ranks are: Katana 7th Dan, Wakizashi 5th Dan, Tanto 4th Dan, Yari 5th Dan, Nito Ryu 5th Dan and Tameshigiri 3rd Dan. His rank in Toyama is 5th Dan and Kendo 3rd Dan. The Weapon ranks are given in Chanbara showing a high level of combative skill in each. NOTE: nito ryu in chanbara is like is Kendo counter part specificly 2 sword sparring not specificly the Musashi ryu and kata.

Chanbara: Given that their are 3 styles of Chanbara ( One that uses any grip, one that you can start a cut with propper grip go to one hand mid cut and then end with 2 hand, and the 3rd more used with My sensei that is basicly Kendo with Chanbara Gear ) In the 3rd style propper sword grip is always used and because chanbara swords bend they give the illusion of a cut when they slide down the opponent.... Rather than just a "wack" you get with kendo gear when the sword hits armor.... It is because of this that I think chanbara actually helps in cutting and use of basic happo giri in sparring ( as long as we are talking about the 3rd style ). The 3rd style came more into view as a balance of chanbara and kendo. In kendo their are no smiles and laughing and things are serious! Chanbara is allot of fun and is less formal by nature.... The 3rd style of Chanbara is more for those students who lean more with traditional view of sword, while still being in a Chanbara format .

For those of you who are confused by the 3 style referance goshindo has 3 areas of study 1. The basic toyama system ( 8 Kata, Happogiri, Noto Batto ex. ) 2. Chanbara and 3. Tameshigiri. Yes tameshigiri is a seprate study and is given a seperate rank within goshindo just as Chanbara has different ranks within it for differen weapons ( Katana, Waki, Naginata, Yari, Tanto ex. ) Chanbara can be studied on its own as can just toyama, but not tameshigiri. Their is an art to knowing how to test a sword and swordsmen, but cant be taught without knowing 1 of the other 2. Since the basics all overlap in some point when you get down to them it would be fair to say that it would not be a huge stretch for just a 3rd style chanbara swordsmen to cut effective tameshigiri with normal training and working at it...

But most of the time people just do Chanbara or they do the whole package of the 3 areas wich I refer to as the "Triangle" of Goshindo study. I guess come to think of it you could call it a "Pyramid" because of all the vast area of study that can be had in Chanbara and Cutting......

Also I must add a few things. Every person has a different eye for technique. Many of the Sensei here like Sensei Smith and Kim have different views and goals as shihan abbott does... He found what he wanted from Goshindo and Chanbara under Tanabe as you guys did with your sensei. In terms of Combative weapons I would call him a Master without a second thought.... As far as kata the only difference I see is timing and personal points of view that have more to do with brantch politics than anything...

Sensei smith the man you are thinking of in terms of getting a kodachi 1st dan in chanbara is I believe Animo. If I am not mistaken has been in toyama for over 10 years holds a Yondan and had a number of medals from many tai kai. He is a man of great skill... It is not odd in any degree that A man of such skill and experience was given this rank.... You make it sound as if some joe blow could spend a week and get a shodan and that is NOT true by any shape or form.

Competition is a Big part of Batto fed rankings as is Tai kai. I have heard of people getting higher ranks for performing in tai kai. And even that aside there is still the fact that medals for winning events is VERY common as is awards to document the win... I would find it hard to belive that no one in Batto fed has ever referanced tai kai medals when talking about skill and ability...

I think we should all realize the common bond of sword work and realize that depending on how somone spins somthing even the Batto fed can look funny to Koryu and other Ryu.

Not entirely sure what your point was with those two posts Ricky, but I've got a couple of comments on them ... First, this thread is quite old. Second, please don't call me sensei.

Quote:I would find it hard to belive that no one in Batto fed has ever referanced tai kai medals when talking about skill and ability...

I wouldn't. I just moved and, while I was packing, realized that I've got 25 or 30 medals from various tai kai, Batto Fed and otherwise. I've no idea how many of what kind or from where, so I would find it impossible to "reference" tai kai medals for anything. Tai Kai are about testing your own abilities and hanging out with old friends, not about winning things to put on a resume.

Any way you want to spin it, chanbara was meant to give kids a fun and safe way to have sword fights. Mr. Tanabe says almost these very words when describing why and where he invented it.

I call you sensei because you are a man of higher rank than I as well as experience in sword arts. I respect the views of you and Sensei Kim because you guys have a clue and have met dana. If you guys dont like him cool, but it makes many forum posters comment on things they do not know or understand becayse they do not have the experience you guys do....

I constantly hear things from people when I run a weekly training group. A few other JSA students from other dojos come in and referance goshindo and chanbara from posts like these as well as many on other forums. Again fallowing what you guys say rather than finding out on their own. I did not know about such postings, but found them fast. I aim to correct the remarks of people who do not have the experience to make comments as you do.

As far as tai kai. I agree it is a good way to get people together, but there are allot of medals and prizes. If it was all about testing yourself and having fun their would be no medals no first or 3rd place and no Yusho of the tai kai. And I have heard of people getting higher ranks for good tai kai performance. As for Why goshindo and chanbra being inventd you are not quite right...

"I have dreamt of a venue where swordsmen and other martial artists from East and West could compete safely, fairly, free from injury, cumbersome rules and overprotective gear. This easily adopted concept could be applied universally in gyms, martial art schools and sports centers throughout the world.

Up to now, martial artists and swordsmen all over the globe never had the opportunity, nor were they able, to match their special skills and techniques in a single competition.

Envision a learning center attended by a mixture of combatants embracing European, Middle Eastern, Western, Asian and African martial art styles. Visualize a European epee matched against a Middle Eastern saber both capable of astounding one-handed manipulations. Imagine the Cora fencers of Asia, who are noted for their lightning-quick thrusts, fending off an African Masai tribesman's lance or evading a stick fighter from the Philippines.

Add to this sublime menu of combatants the traditional Japanese samurai versed in swords, spears and staves and you will discover “Heaven on earth in one arena."

-Tanabe Sensei

Tanabe sensei's goal is to bring people together for a common bond. No matter what or where they train they can all have a good game of physical chess. If you and other sensei would be more respecting of different ryu and focus more on what is the same rather than what is different there would be allot more events to meet old friends and make new ones...

It just seems like with comments new or old you like to draw a line and say " hey I am not with that guy ". I will climb off my soapbox now... I just ask that people stop public bashing of Goshindo and Shihan Abbott.

I hope that reviving this thread won't be viewed as beating a dead horse, but I'm seriously considering taking-up Batto-jutsu next month. I'll be taking an intro Batto seminar @ Fumio Demura's tournament & wanted to see what was in the forum re: Batto.

Re: Dana Abbot... saw him @ Fumio Demura's tournament a few years ago soon after he introduced the soft swords. The "war" that was demonstrated was called Chanbara. That was weird to me (calling a MA system Chanbara) because as a kid in Japan, I watched lots of Chanbara movies. You see, Chanbara was a slang term for "sword fighting" or samurai movies.

Anyway, the foam swords have nowhere the feel (weight & balance) of a katana, bokken or shinai (I trained in iaido for about a year). It appeared that Chanbara was nothing more than a bunch of kids playing at sword-fighting like me & my brother used to do w/ wrapping paper tubes - people swinging wildly @ one another, getting whacked and laying down pretending to be dead.

Yeah, great fun, but so far from real MA I nearly gagged. I don't know why Demura Sensei allowed it - maybe just for the fun of it. But his Batto is legitimate. BTW, next time I see Shimabukuro Sensei, I'll ask him about Abbot.

Anyway, CXT made some great points. Nothing wrong w/ having fun, but don't try to get me to believe that a legitimate MA is being taught. It's like being the best driver on Mario Cart & believing that you could seriously compete in the Monaco Grand Prix.