SAN JOSE, CALIFORNIA—As the Apple v. Samsung trial pushed into its concluding half, a key Samsung designer took the stand today and was asked by her own lawyer if she copied the iPhone when she designed the Samsung Galaxy. Her answer: "No, not at all."

In earlier testimony, Apple had pointed out how similar the iPhone smartphone icons are compared to many Samsung phones. Apple called out a couple of icons in particular, such as the "call" icon (both companies use an old-style telephone on a green background), the photo gallery (both use flowers) and the clock (similar analog clock on both Samsung accused devices and the iPhone).

The designer, Jeeyeun Wang, said that she picked some of those designs herself—and her influence wasn't the iPhone.

"I designed [the green phone icon] as such because it's a phone, so I designed it as a phone," said Wang, speaking through a Korean translator who was sworn in shortly before she was. "Same goes with the clock, and the camera."

Samsung lawyer John Quinn then asked: "Had Samsung experimented with other icons on phones in the past?"

The company had, answered Wang—but they just confused people.

"There were directives to come up with a design that's more sophisticated," said Wang. "We tried an icon that would look like a cell phone with an antenna, and another icon that looked more like a smartphone. But what happened was, people would mistake these icons. They thought it was a game or a PDA, or even a calculator. So we had some problems."

The old-style phone icon, called a "dumb bell" icon at Samsung, had been in use since 2002, said Wang.

Quinn went on to ask Wang about her life at Samsung:

"Is being a designer at Samsung an easy job?" asked Quinn.

"No, not at all," answered Wang.

"We've heard Apple witnesses talk about how hard they worked on the iPhone. Can you talk about how it was to work on the Galaxy phone, and the features you worked on?"

"My recollection is that I slept two hours or three hours per night [while working on the Galaxy], that's about it," said Wang. "Also, during that time period, I encountered something that was very difficult for me. I had just given birth to a newborn, and I was feeding mother's milk to the baby. Since I wasn't able to be with the baby so much, I had to save the breast milk. But I wasn't able to do that on a consistent basis. My recollection is that the breastfeeding had to come to a stop... Those were difficult times."

Samsung hopes the prior art cavalry will come to the rescue

Samsung also presented witnesses who called into question how new Apple's designs really were. The day was kicked off with a short testimony from Roger Forlines, an engineer who worked on a touchscreen system called "Diamond Touch" when he worked as a lab researcher for Mitsubishi back in 2004.

Later in the day, former newspaperman Roger Fidler, who designed a tablet computer back in 1994, testified by videotaped deposition.

The final witness was an Israeli expert, Itay Sherman, who spoke about how earlier technology—namely, the Fidler Tablet and a Japanese design patent—rendered Apple's design patents invalid.

146 Reader Comments

The icons accusation it's just weird because most people design icons that are globally recognized and only because some icons look alike others doesn't mean anything, it's just the smartest way of making people recognize them faster.People seem to forget the times before the smartphones, when all major mobile manufacturers had similar design for their call button and end call button. Why they didn't start such a rufus on who made the design first back then? Something smells fishy in this accusation.

"...Can you talk about how it was to work on the Galaxy phone, and the features you worked on?"

"I slept two hours or three hours per night, that's about it," said Wang. "" Also, I encountered something that was very difficult for me."" I had just given birth to a newborn, and I was feeding mother's milk to the baby"" Since I wasn't able to be with the baby so much, I had to save the breast milk."" But I wasn't able to do that on a consistent basis" " The breastfeeding had to come to a stop... "" Those were difficult times."

"...Can you talk about how it was to work on the Galaxy phone, and the features you worked on?"

"I slept two hours or three hours per night, that's about it," said Wang. "" Also, I encountered something that was very difficult for me."" I had just given birth to a newborn, and I was feeding mother's milk to the baby"" Since I wasn't able to be with the baby so much, I had to save the breast milk."" But I wasn't able to do that on a consistent basis" " The breastfeeding had to come to a stop... "" Those were difficult times."

"My recollection is that I slept two hours or three hours per night [while working on the Galaxy], that's about it,"

That's the Samsung I know and despise. I've worked with their programmers and apart from the fireworks display of "cracked by" screens popping up when they started work in the morning, the most memorable thing was the low-level manager assigned to walking around the rows of desks shaking people awake.

Judge Koh is perhaps an expert on these kinds of technical issues. A jury, not so much -- although I think they put technology in the drinking water in that part of the country.

I happen to believe that the Samsung designer was telling the truth -- but I'm not sure how that testimony will materially affect the outcome of the case. Well, I suppose it may be a way to contest the triple-damages, "intentionally infringing" penalty that Apple is seeking.

"...Can you talk about how it was to work on the Galaxy phone, and the features you worked on?"

"I slept two hours or three hours per night, that's about it," said Wang. "" Also, I encountered something that was very difficult for me."" I had just given birth to a newborn, and I was feeding mother's milk to the baby"" Since I wasn't able to be with the baby so much, I had to save the breast milk."" But I wasn't able to do that on a consistent basis" " The breastfeeding had to come to a stop... "" Those were difficult times."

bad publicity for samsung indeed.

Not really. It's matter of fact in Korea; or just about any other asian countries.

"My recollection is that I slept two hours or three hours per night [while working on the Galaxy], that's about it,"

That's the Samsung I know and despise. I've worked with their programmers and apart from the fireworks display of "cracked by" screens popping up when they started work in the morning, the most memorable thing was the low-level manager assigned to walking around the rows of desks shaking people awake.

Sounds a lot like working for the military to me. Note to self, never work for Samsung.

"...Can you talk about how it was to work on the Galaxy phone, and the features you worked on?"

"I slept two hours or three hours per night, that's about it," said Wang. "" Also, I encountered something that was very difficult for me."" I had just given birth to a newborn, and I was feeding mother's milk to the baby"" Since I wasn't able to be with the baby so much, I had to save the breast milk."" But I wasn't able to do that on a consistent basis" " The breastfeeding had to come to a stop... "" Those were difficult times."

The icons accusation it's just weird because most people design icons that are globally recognized and only because some icons look alike others doesn't mean anything, it's just the smartest way of making people recognize them faster.People seem to forget the times before the smartphones, when all major mobile manufacturers had similar design for their call button and end call button. Why they didn't start such a rufus on who made the design first back then? Something smells fishy in this accusation.

The whole design patent thing is ridiculous to being with. Most devices that perform the same function look very much alike.

Most TVs look alike (if it weren't for logos, I couldn't tell the difference between an LG set and a Toshiba one to save my life). Most cars in similar categories look alike. Most washing machines and dryers look alike. Most dishwashers look alike. Most laptops look alike. Most trains look alike. Most pencils look alike. Most plates look alike. Most frying pans look alike. Most paper tissues look alike. You get the picture.

Apple is just a legal bully, and hopefully this comes back to bite them in the ass—hard.

"Also, during that time period, I encountered something that was very difficult for me. I had just given birth to a newborn, and I was feeding mother's milk to the baby. Since I wasn't able to be with the baby so much, I had to save the breast milk. But I wasn't able to do that on a consistent basis. My recollection is that the breastfeeding had to come to a stop... Those were difficult times."

I respect the time and energy that went into developing the Galaxy (sleeping only 2-3 hours per night)... however, it doesn't move me on this case because whether or not you work tirelessly on a product has nothing to do with wheather that product infringes on patented material or not.

"My recollection is that I slept two hours or three hours per night [while working on the Galaxy], that's about it,"

That's the Samsung I know and despise. I've worked with their programmers and apart from the fireworks display of "cracked by" screens popping up when they started work in the morning, the most memorable thing was the low-level manager assigned to walking around the rows of desks shaking people awake.

Sounds a lot like working for the military to me. Note to self, never work for Samsung.

One thing is that, at least compared to NZ, the pay is nearly double for equivalent position in Samsung with relatively low living costs in Korea.

So if you are young, fit, in dire need of money and want a decent credential for your next job, it might be beneficial to get a job in Samsung.

And yes it does sound a like the military because the managers will be running it in the manner they learnt during their time in the military. Remember, Korea has conscription system.

I do not forget that Samsung are not the most ethical company on the face of this earth. Samsung copied some elements of Apple's iPhones - this testimony is about as credible as some of Apple's testimonies ...Don't forget that this trial is about freedom to innovate. Apple rarely invent - they take other people's ideas, combine and improve them. This is an essential process for society to improve.

I respect the time and energy that went into developing the Galaxy (sleeping only 2-3 hours per night)... however, it doesn't move me on this case because whether or not you work tirelessly on a product has nothing to do with wheather that product infringes on patented material or not.

It's Samsung's response to Apple employee saying they worked hard on their design.

Quote:

We've heard Apple witnesses talk about how hard they worked on the iPhone.

That said, I also don't think it really has any bearing on the infringement but in both cases, they are using that to garner sympathy from the juries.

That's the Samsung I know and despise. I've worked with their programmers and apart from the fireworks display of "cracked by" screens popping up when they started work in the morning, the most memorable thing was the low-level manager assigned to walking around the rows of desks shaking people awake.

That's not Samsung culture, that's Korean (Korean and Japanese actually) culture.When I visit our and client facilities in Japan and Korea, its very similar... People will stay at work until their boss goes home... Bosses will stay in their offices, some of them putting their head down on their desks, until their directors go home. Directors stay in the office until the VP goes home, etc.

Likewise at our own facility in the US, alcohol is prohibited on campus, but when I go to our European facilities, the cafeteria has several beers on tap, as well as a selection of wine in the wine fridge. Different countries, different culture, different norms...

People seem to forget the times before the smartphones, when all major mobile manufacturers had similar design for their call button and end call button. Why they didn't start such a rufus on who made the design first back then? Something smells fishy in this accusation.

You need to find the right balance between familiarity and copying. The right balance is to make something that is familiar but looks completely different. During apple's testimony they brought a long-ago-retired icon designer who worked for several OS designers (including apple) explaining this to the jury.

I'm genuinely interested to find out exactly where the law draws a line in the sand and says "this is illegal" and "this is perfectly allowed". I hope samsung is on the illegal side, not because any individual thing they copied is wrong, but because they copied so many things it confuses consumers.

The 3rd and 4th gen iPhones have less in common than the 3rd gen iPhone and Samsung's phone. That's not good.

"...Can you talk about how it was to work on the Galaxy phone, and the features you worked on?"

"I slept two hours or three hours per night, that's about it," said Wang. "" Also, I encountered something that was very difficult for me."" I had just given birth to a newborn, and I was feeding mother's milk to the baby"" Since I wasn't able to be with the baby so much, I had to save the breast milk."" But I wasn't able to do that on a consistent basis" " The breastfeeding had to come to a stop... "" Those were difficult times."

It's a decent lawyer trick on Samsung's part I guess. Try to get the jury to feel bad for a woman who was working so hard she couldn't even breast feed her baby. Here comes big bad apple trying to say that Samsungs icons designers (represented by this poor woman) just simply copied theirs.

It could easily backfire if one considers the unreasonable demands samsung may have places on their workers but that woman will be in the back of the jury's mind when they consider the icons and the process could bleed over into other claims.

On a different topic, if Apple were to actually win their injunction, wouldn't it only apply to the phones listed in this case? Phones that are pretty much out of production anyways? It's not like they can pull the s3 note 2 or 10.1 since those aren't even on trial. So how would today's market place even be changed all that much?

Samsung clearly was inspired heavily by Apple from the looks of the galaxy s but seems to have moved on since then. Very likely from these lawsuits.

I know some of the icons in question here are still on the new phones but I don't see how this trial could pull them. The look us different, bounce back is gone, and even the packaging no longer has any picture on it at all. At the most, they could be forced to alter the Touchwiz which could be done ota or maybe just apply to new sales.

Most TVs look alike (if it weren't for logos, I couldn't tell the difference between an LG set and a Toshiba one to save my life). Most cars in similar categories look alike.

But if somebody does make a TV that looks completely different even though it functions exactly the same (perhaps they make the frame around the TV red with a purple corners), and then the next LG TV is also red with purple corners... then you have infringement.

The car industry is full of it, you can buy an imitation Ferrari on the black market... it has to be on the black market, because they get sued into oblivion if their operations get too public.

Roger Forlines, an engineer who worked on a touch-screen system called "Diamond Touch"...Roger Fidler, who designed a tablet computer back in 1994...Itay Sherman, who spoke about how earlier technology—namely, the Fidler Tablet and a Japanese design patent

I would really appreciate if someone at Ars tries to dig up more details about them - just how similar are they to the devices being sold today?

Really odd that Apple didn't cross-examine such a key witness whose name was given as the manager of a matrix comparing Samsung designs and Apple's.

Did Apple's team screw up as badly as Quinn seems to have by not challenging such a sympathetic witness?

Or is there more to this story than Ars' content management system could handle?

I'm really disappointed with this followup. That's the point of this article, is an employee saying the obvious? And that she works long hours, which has nothing to do with what she actually did during those hours?

On a different topic, if Apple were to actually win their injunction, wouldn't it only apply to the phones listed in this case? Phones that are pretty much out of production anyways? It's not like they can pull the s3 note 2 or 10.1 since those aren't even on trial.

Apple's primary goal is to stop samsung and others from creating imitation products. The recent Samsung devices suggest that has already happened... but they probably want compensation for the damage already done, and strong precedent to wave in people's face (perhaps with that, samsung would have listened when Apple privately asked them to change the design before shipping these devices)

Roger Forlines, an engineer who worked on a touch-screen system called "Diamond Touch"...Roger Fidler, who designed a tablet computer back in 1994...Itay Sherman, who spoke about how earlier technology—namely, the Fidler Tablet and a Japanese design patent

I would really appreciate if someone at Ars tries to dig up more details about them - just how similar are they to the devices being sold today?

I don't know more, so I'd have to look into it for a while and get back to you. Diamond Touch seems to be more of a original Microsoft Surface idea with projectors, like they sometimes have in malls for kids to play with.

I don't know more, so I'd have to look into it for a while and get back to you. Diamond Touch seems to be more of a original Microsoft Surface idea with projectors, like they sometimes have in malls for kids to play with.

Thanks, that is actually quite similar. But I'm not sure how relevant it is? Trademark/dress law takes into account how familiar the general consumer is with a product design. A research project that went nowhere doesn't rank very high.

That's the Samsung I know and despise. I've worked with their programmers and apart from the fireworks display of "cracked by" screens popping up when they started work in the morning, the most memorable thing was the low-level manager assigned to walking around the rows of desks shaking people awake.

Korean maybe. Had experiences doing the same job with Toshiba and Sharp - long days in big factories with funny uniforms but reasonable hours, no pirated software, no programmers so dead tired they had to be woken from drooling on their keyboards.

On a different topic, if Apple were to actually win their injunction, wouldn't it only apply to the phones listed in this case? Phones that are pretty much out of production anyways? It's not like they can pull the s3 note 2 or 10.1 since those aren't even on trial.

Apple's primary goal is to stop samsung and others from creating imitation products. The recent Samsung devices suggest that has already happened... but they probably want compensation for the damage already done, and strong precedent to wave in people's face (perhaps with that, samsung would have listened when Apple privately asked them to change the design before shipping these devices)

++ It is not just a few individual features that were lifted but the look and feel of the product as a whole. Other ars|technicans argue "so what, TVs all look the same, cars all look the same". OK...I'll give you the TV issue but that is up to the TV manufacturers. Car manufacturer's definitely look for ways to make their vehicles brand-distinctive though. I dare anyone to tell a Ferrari owner that his car looks just like a new Chevy! Not all computers or tablets have to look the same either. Nook tablet and Fire don't look or feel like each other, let alone an iPad. Even the new Microsoft Surface, assuming it actually surfaces, looks very distinctive in terms for color, shape, and user interface from and iPad. Samsung could have made design choices that were innovative and brand-distinctive. They didn't.

I don't know more, so I'd have to look into it for a while and get back to you. Diamond Touch seems to be more of a original Microsoft Surface idea with projectors, like they sometimes have in malls for kids to play with.

Thanks, that is actually quite similar. But I'm not sure how relevant it is? Trademark/dress law takes into account how familiar the general consumer is with a product design. A research project that went nowhere doesn't rank very high.

On a different topic, if Apple were to actually win their injunction, wouldn't it only apply to the phones listed in this case? Phones that are pretty much out of production anyways? It's not like they can pull the s3 note 2 or 10.1 since those aren't even on trial.

Apple's primary goal is to stop samsung and others from creating imitation products. The recent Samsung devices suggest that has already happened... but they probably want compensation for the damage already done, and strong precedent to wave in people's face (perhaps with that, samsung would have listened when Apple privately asked them to change the design before shipping these devices)

++ It is not just a few individual features that were lifted but the look and feel of the product as a whole. Other ars|technicans argue "so what, TVs all look the same, cars all look the same". OK...I'll give you the TV issue but that is up to the TV manufacturers. Car manufacturer's definitely look for ways to make their vehicles brand-distinctive though. I dare anyone to tell a Ferrari owner that his car looks just like a new Chevy! Not all computers or tablets have to look the same either. Nook tablet and Fire don't look or feel like each other, let alone an iPad. Even the new Microsoft Surface, assuming it actually surfaces, looks very distinctive in terms for color, shape, and user interface from and iPad. Samsung could have made design choices that were innovative and brand-distinctive. They didn't.

I was thinking about comments I've read that say apples goal is to eliminate samsung from the market. If that's their goal, their actions don't bear that. Your idea makes much more sense in so far as it seems to have already worked. If they win, I doubt they'll get anything near the damaged their asking and probably won't even dent Samsung's pocket.

One thing is for sure, whether or not manufactures agree with apples claims or not, they will be steering a wide berth around anything apple.

Korean maybe. Had experiences doing the same job with Toshiba and Sharp - long days in big factories with funny uniforms but reasonable hours, no pirated software, no programmers so dead tired they had to be woken from drooling on their keyboards.

Lol, that's not how it was like at Sony and Sharp for me, lol Maybe it's specific to the types of product groups I tend to work with