IBreakdance2NIN:Ugh. These kinds of threads always have me at war with myself.

1) Mom FTFA is a twat, plain and simple.2) Kids can get by perfectly fine on a vegetarian diet if done properly, like any other human.3) When people forgo meat because they just don't like it, I'm slightly puzzled, but whatever.4) When people forgo meat because OMG IT'S MURDER, I wish they'd shut the f*ck up.5) When people forgo meat for religious or health reasons, more power to them.6) I f*cking love meat of all kinds, and yet find myself eating healthy vegetarian or vegan meals at least half the time because my body appreciates the conscious increase in nutrients, and vegetables are crazy delicious. And if you have even the slightest ability to cook, getting enough protein and fat is a cinch.7) I f*cking love meat of all kinds, but people who INSIST on meat at every single meal are twats.8) Entire cultures have sustained themselves on largely vegetarian diets for millenia and gotten by just fine. Try eating their cuisines sometime, it's generally fantastic.9) The next hippie who gives me a dirty look when I tear into a rare ribeye is getting stabbed with my fork.

tl;dr People on all sides of the veg issue can often be concern trolling assholes.

Pretty much this. My cousin is vegetarian for moral reasons, but she's never militant about it. She practically doesn't mention her vegetarianism at all; I have on numerous occasions forgotten that she's a vegetarian. It all works out rather beautifully: she feels good because she sticks to her principles, I get an extra serving of ham at Christmas dinner, and nobody is made to feel bad by anyone else for their dietary choices. Wins all around!

lasercannon:"The mother's barrister, Byron James, argued on appeal that the reintroduction of so much contact after such a long break was 'too sudden and too steep a progression' and was likely to cause both the boy and his mother emotional harm."

Fark you lady. You didn't consider the emotional impact when you cut off all contact did you?

She just realizes that the minute her kid goes back to Dad's place and finds his dinner plate has a delicious slab of bloody meat on it, she's lost her kid. She'll forever be "the icky food woman" and Dad will be the guy who serves him mouth-watering bacon-wrapped everything. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if that factored into the decision to keep the kid away from Dad in the first place. I mean if you were 5 and the court was asking you who you wanted to stay with, would it be the person who made you eat nothing but vegetables or the guy who let you have a hot dog every now and then?

Damn hippies. You know what, I freaking hate them. Not for the average run of the mill reasons like "they smell" or "they're commies" but because they don't recognize ANY adverse effects of their lifestyle.

You've got people who are buying "craft made items" from third world countries to help out the local economy. Oh... you mean a sweat shop that doesn't even have to have a building? That's what I call a group of Egyptian women desperately sewing clothing that is being shipped overseas where a import/export company takes a significant portion of the markup.

You've got people queing up to buy hybrid cars left and right. Oh, by the way, the minerals for that are strip-mined in Canada, shipped to Japan for treatment, then the finished batteries are shipped back to the US for assembly in the finished car. It's about as good for the environment has a tire fire.

And they've all got stickers on EVERYTHING. I mean freaking everything. You know what stickers are made out of? Plastic. You know, one of the single most pollutant products in the world.

Oh, and they make everything brown and green. You know how? Chemical dyes. You want to know what recycled paper would really look like? take a chunk of a cereal box and chew it for about 10 minutes then spit it out. that's what those "100% recycled" paper products look like before Georgia Pacific coats them in dye.

Then you've got this twit. She's justifying keeping her child away from his father by saving the lives of countless animals. Never mind the slowly building hatred your child is developing, the moo-cow is gonna live a happy care-free lifestyle now. I'm not even going to mention the nutritional jackassery that has a 80% chance of occurring,because once that kid manages to get ahold of his father and he shows him this article, all that hatred is going to spin right around to mommy and I've got a feeling rare steak will be appearing in the household.

IBreakdance2NIN:Ugh. These kinds of threads always have me at war with myself.

1) Mom FTFA is a twat, plain and simple.2) Kids can get by perfectly fine on a vegetarian diet if done properly, like any other human.3) When people forgo meat because they just don't like it, I'm slightly puzzled, but whatever.4) When people forgo meat because OMG IT'S MURDER, I wish they'd shut the f*ck up.5) When people forgo meat for religious or health reasons, more power to them.6) I f*cking love meat of all kinds, and yet find myself eating healthy vegetarian or vegan meals at least half the time because my body appreciates the conscious increase in nutrients, and vegetables are crazy delicious. And if you have even the slightest ability to cook, getting enough protein and fat is a cinch.7) I f*cking love meat of all kinds, but people who INSIST on meat at every single meal are twats.8) Entire cultures have sustained themselves on largely vegetarian diets for millenia and gotten by just fine. Try eating their cuisines sometime, it's generally fantastic.9) The next hippie who gives me a dirty look when I tear into a rare ribeye is getting stabbed with my fork.

tl;dr People on all sides of the veg issue can often be concern trolling assholes.

So because I like the taste of meat more than I like the taste of veggies, I'm a twat? And before you assume it's the quality of veggies, I have a very productive garden filled with all my favorites. Tomatoes and corn are great, but they're not as great as chicken or steak or pig. And as such, I'll have them as a side to my meat main course thank you very much.

doglover:robohobo: I get nearly all of my vegetables from 2 glasses of juiced veggies(w/pulp) a day. Aside from peas, corn, potatoes, and tomatoes(a fruit, I know), I find veggies fairly gross. Both taste and texture, and I've tried lots of vegetables lots of ways. I find it way easier to beer-chug my two mugs of veggie blargh than having to eat those colorful pieces of foulness. Meat and potatoes and bread is where its at.

SJKebab:I'd like to take this opportunity to point out how awesome the mother of my nephew is. She's a vegetarian, my neph is a carnivore, and his little brother (I consider him a neph but technically no blood relation) wants to follow in his mothers footsteps. She wouldn't have a bar of it. Her philosophy is that she's a vegetarian for moral reasons, but until her son (9 years old now) is old enough to fully appreciate and debate the topic, he's going to get fed a proper omnivorous diet. She's cooked meat for him every day even though she can't stand the smell of the stuff now.

That, ladies and gentlemen, is how you do it.

Good on her. Her kids will grow up respecting others for this and have an easier time. If only most parents didn't force their beliefs on their kids.

"The mother's barrister, Byron James, argued on appeal that the reintroduction of so much contact after such a long break was 'too sudden and too steep a progression' and was likely to cause both the boy and his mother emotional harm.

So, the mother defies a court order and prevents the child from having any contact with his father for over a year and than her lawyer argues that the child should have no more contact with his father because they haven't been in contact for so long ?!?He probably even said this with a straight face.

Btw, why wasn't the boy's mother punished for defying a court order and potentially harming both her son and his father ?If the roles had been reversed and the father had defied a court order and kept his son from visiting his mother, would the courts have ignored it and just said don't do it again ?

LL316:IBreakdance2NIN: Ugh. These kinds of threads always have me at war with myself.

1) Mom FTFA is a twat, plain and simple.2) Kids can get by perfectly fine on a vegetarian diet if done properly, like any other human.3) When people forgo meat because they just don't like it, I'm slightly puzzled, but whatever.4) When people forgo meat because OMG IT'S MURDER, I wish they'd shut the f*ck up.5) When people forgo meat for religious or health reasons, more power to them.6) I f*cking love meat of all kinds, and yet find myself eating healthy vegetarian or vegan meals at least half the time because my body appreciates the conscious increase in nutrients, and vegetables are crazy delicious. And if you have even the slightest ability to cook, getting enough protein and fat is a cinch.7) I f*cking love meat of all kinds, but people who INSIST on meat at every single meal are twats.8) Entire cultures have sustained themselves on largely vegetarian diets for millenia and gotten by just fine. Try eating their cuisines sometime, it's generally fantastic.9) The next hippie who gives me a dirty look when I tear into a rare ribeye is getting stabbed with my fork.

tl;dr People on all sides of the veg issue can often be concern trolling assholes.

So because I like the taste of meat more than I like the taste of veggies, I'm a twat? And before you assume it's the quality of veggies, I have a very productive garden filled with all my favorites. Tomatoes and corn are great, but they're not as great as chicken or steak or pig. And as such, I'll have them as a side to my meat main course thank you very much.

/Breakfast is for cereal Mon-Fri

I'm going to assume that she means someone who will not eat a meal without meat and will make a huge fuss (meat-anger) because it is not on the menu, kinda like the militant vegans and veg-heads we here about. Believe me, I love my beef, chicken and poultry as much as you do, but sometimes, I can do without and not make a big deal about.

IBreakdance2NIN:Ugh. These kinds of threads always have me at war with myself.

1) Mom FTFA is a twat, plain and simple.2) Kids can get by perfectly fine on a vegetarian diet if done properly, like any other human.3) When people forgo meat because they just don't like it, I'm slightly puzzled, but whatever.4) When people forgo meat because OMG IT'S MURDER, I wish they'd shut the f*ck up.5) When people forgo meat for religious or health reasons, more power to them.6) I f*cking love meat of all kinds, and yet find myself eating healthy vegetarian or vegan meals at least half the time because my body appreciates the conscious increase in nutrients, and vegetables are crazy delicious. And if you have even the slightest ability to cook, getting enough protein and fat is a cinch.7) I f*cking love meat of all kinds, but people who INSIST on meat at every single meal are twats.8) Entire cultures have sustained themselves on largely vegetarian diets for millenia and gotten by just fine. Try eating their cuisines sometime, it's generally fantastic.9) The next hippie who gives me a dirty look when I tear into a rare ribeye is getting stabbed with my fork.

tl;dr People on all sides of the veg issue can often be concern trolling assholes.

ParagonComplex:"The little girl saw her dad coming out of the shower and said "dad, when do I get a penis like that?" The dad replied "As soon as mommy goes to work." - George Carlin. "Feed him meat" goes both ways.

OOBE Juan Kenobi:We, carnivores, must continue to protect and assert our right to kill other sentient beings and eat their flesh on the Internet. For if we fail to continue, friends, I feel that the vegans will begin to assert control. We cannot let this happen. We should contemplate creating an 11th Amendment: The Right to Eat Meat

We're just trying to protect sensitive plants from the slaughter brought upon them by vegetarians.

uttertosh:Forcing a child to be vegan from birth means that you have effectively removed meat from the list of their easily digestible foodstuffs befor they have any legal say in the matter - when they come to the age of 18 and maybe want to try it themselves, they'll be most likely violently ill as their system rejects the animal proteins.

I was raised strictly vegan. A few days after I turned 18 and left escaped my parents, I walked into a fantastic deli and ordered a big freakin' pastrami sandwich with cheese. I swear that thing was piled a foot high with pastrami.

I ate the whole damned thing, loved every bite, and wasn't sick a bit. This whole fallacy that vegans will get "sick" if they eat meat is stupid. Do you get sick any time you try a new food? No? Well, vegans don't get sick from eating meat. They may have a psychosomatic reaction, but it's not their body "rejecting animal proteins."

BonesJackson:Yes, growing kids need protein, fats, carbohydrates, etc. Let's not get silly though. You don't quite understand nutrition if you honestly believe a child can't grow up healthy without the aid of animal proteins. Just because some nutters do it wrong (if they actually do--or are you arguing on a personal inkling you don't expect to be called out on?) doesn't mean it's unquestionably impossible.

Now, if she's researching all the correct types of vegetables, fruits, beans, nuts, and grains that provide the proper nutrients, and then providing supplements for any missing proteins, great. But without that good effort, she could be hurting her child.

rogue_L_chick:fark her. I'm sitting here reading this, not long after sending yet another "please call your kid" email to my kid's dad...he moved 2 hours away almost a year ago and started calling him only about every 2 months and has seen him twice (I drove, those are the only times it "would work"). No child support has ever been exchanged, it's not about that...I just want my kid to not feel shiatty because he's 13 now and "dad's just busy, you know he misses you" just doesn't cut it anymore.

Not fair. I would never withhold visits, and I have a sinking feeling my ex would prefer if I was more like this woman. If it wasn't for this awesome kid, I would agree with anyone who says I should have chosen more wisely in my youth. :/

Helena Handbasket:uttertosh:Forcing a child to be vegan from birth means that you have effectively removed meat from the list of their easily digestible foodstuffs befor they have any legal say in the matter - when they come to the age of 18 and maybe want to try it themselves, they'll be most likely violently ill as their system rejects the animal proteins.

I was raised strictly vegan. A few days after I turned 18 and left escaped my parents, I walked into a fantastic deli and ordered a big freakin' pastrami sandwich with cheese. I swear that thing was piled a foot high with pastrami.

I ate the whole damned thing, loved every bite, and wasn't sick a bit. This whole fallacy that vegans will get "sick" if they eat meat is stupid. Do you get sick any time you try a new food? No? Well, vegans don't get sick from eating meat. They may have a psychosomatic reaction, but it's not their body "rejecting animal proteins."

People who don't eat enough protein in general will get sick. I'm guessing your parents (rather reasonably) ate a lot of bean products, grains and such to supplement the protein. There are tons of vegans who survive mostly off of leafy greens and traditional vegetables because anything that doesn't look like a produce ad tastes like hate. THOSE are the ones that get sick. The ones that eat salads a lot, drink almond milk smoothies for breakfast, and have some tofu with their rice and vegetables at night.

arbitterm:"I don't mind enforcing my lifestyle on my children, so long as their father is legally forced to help me. Otherwise he can never see them. Because I want everyone to know who controls things around here"

This is how hyper-vegetarians sound in my head.

Don't blame this on vegetarianism. It could have been some other life stance, such as Catholicism to name one.

HindiDiscoMonster:shtychkn: BonesJackson: To be clear, I'm not arguing on behalf the woman in this article or the parents listed on your link who did neglect their kids. I'm saying raising a child vegetarian isn't in and of itself child abuse.

Many on the Indian Subcontinent agree with your statement. Millions upon millions of people raise their children never eating meat. Not an issue as long as you get the requires nutrients from a variety of different vegetables.

which vegetable provides biosoluable B12?

Having lived on the Indian subcontinent, I can tell you that a lot of people who eat little to no meat do consume dairy products and eat eggs, milk and yogurt especially. Also, in that part of the world, many people who don't eat red meat will occasionally indulge in chicken ("occasionally" usually meaning "when they can afford it").

It might also be worth pointing out that (much like with Buddhism) the western and eastern concept of "vegetarian" tends to differ.

/Let's please not get into an argument about who is and isn't "really" vegetarian.

In my almost 20 years of being a non-vegan vegetarian I've encountered far more self righteous carnivores than not. I don't preach about my dietary choice, and couldn't care less about yours. In fact, the people around me are mostly unaware, and my family often forgets that I'm a vegetarian. The reaction I usually get from someone once they've found me out is straight out of Invasion of the Body Snatchers. They point, shriek, and attempt to assimilate me. Many one sided arguments have been had over why "you should just eat meat... because... Bacon!"

In my early twenties, I was bartending, and one night a semi regular came in for a couple beers and a bit to eat. As we talked he casually offered me a chicken finger. I politely declined. He pushed the basket forward, and insisted. I explained that I was vegetarian. This man stared blankly at me for a moment, and then began a tirade of foul language and disgust with "my kind". After threatening me with bodily harm, and no small amount of finger wagging (both he and the chicken) he stormed out without paying. Good times.

So yes, there are some crazy militant vegetarians out there, but the saloon door swings both ways my friend.

FIrst off, the case being linked to, what can we conclude from this... some people are idiots regardless of diet? In her defence, if you look past the headline the "I'm worried he wont feed the kid according to my idea of what I think the kid should eat" is not the sole point being made about the father.

Why shouldn't the specifcs of a childs diet be a concern for a parent? Whether you are concerned about having too much junk food, or something they are allergic to, or too many scotches and cigars, or NO meat, or LOTS of meat... I'm just saying that similar cases are happening all over the place, where "what the child eats" *IS* a legitimate factor in the decisions. In most cases it would probably only be a small part of a larger picture of course - providing the child isn't malnourished one way or the other (or even overnourished?)

So what's the story really? "Woman and man have child, break up and in the custody battle Woman raises the issue of childs diet. " ..... possibly followed up wit "Judge decides (among other factors) diet alone is not sufficient reason for Woman to have sole custody."

Not enough time in the day to counter argue every half baked anti-veggie / anti-vegan point being made here, but the majority seem to fall into A: "I just haven't done my research" B: "I'm a wannabe keyboard caveman who thinks eating bacon is akin to chasing and killing a wooly mammoth by hand and drinking it's blood. And it's probably written into the US constituion on the back of a bald eagle too. This is about freedom, man. Or some noble shiat like that."

In my almost 20 years of being a non-vegan vegetarian I've encountered far more self righteous carnivores than not. I don't preach about my dietary choice, and couldn't care less about yours. In fact, the people around me are mostly unaware, and my family often forgets that I'm a vegetarian. The reaction I usually get from someone once they've found me out is straight out of Invasion of the Body Snatchers. They point, shriek, and attempt to assimilate me. Many one sided arguments have been had over why "you should just eat meat... because... Bacon!"

In my early twenties, I was bartending, and one night a semi regular came in for a couple beers and a bit to eat. As we talked he casually offered me a chicken finger. I politely declined. He pushed the basket forward, and insisted. I explained that I was vegetarian. This man stared blankly at me for a moment, and then began a tirade of foul language and disgust with "my kind". After threatening me with bodily harm, and no small amount of finger wagging (both he and the chicken) he stormed out without paying. Good times.

So yes, there are some crazy militant vegetarians out there, but the saloon door swings both ways my friend.

Come to find out that his chicken farm had just been foreclosed on because of declining demand for his products.

Ringshadow:BonesJackson: Sources on these repeated cases of permanently damaged children?

Yes, growing kids need protein, fats, carbohydrates, etc. Let's not get silly though. You don't quite understand nutrition if you honestly believe a child can't grow up healthy without the aid of animal proteins. Just because some nutters do it wrong (if they actually do--or are you arguing on a personal inkling you don't expect to be called out on?) doesn't mean it's unquestionably impossible.

All due respect but this woman is clearly off her rocker, and there's no reason to put a kid on this level of diet unless there are actual medical issues involved, IN WHICH CASE it would have been brought before the court.

No great sources either way, but here's What's the Harm, with a list of dead/injured kids due to dietary whackery

From there, here's a news story.

The Parkers were vegan, a common but less-than-household term that sounds distinctly extraterrestrial, possibly because the star Vega has spawned numerous science-fiction aliens that bore the name Vegan. From a dietary perspective, vegans are vegetarians who shun not only meat but animal products like gelatin, eggs, cheese and milk....Kimu Parker's trial ended April 9: The jury took 95 minutes to convict her of three counts of child abuse. She faces a mandatory prison term of 30 to 51 years at her sentencing, scheduled for June 13.And jury members hadn't even been told about Lily.She was the Parkers' second daughter. She died at 3 after a series of seizures in 2001, three months before Zion was born.

ciberido:HindiDiscoMonster: shtychkn: BonesJackson: To be clear, I'm not arguing on behalf the woman in this article or the parents listed on your link who did neglect their kids. I'm saying raising a child vegetarian isn't in and of itself child abuse.

Many on the Indian Subcontinent agree with your statement. Millions upon millions of people raise their children never eating meat. Not an issue as long as you get the requires nutrients from a variety of different vegetables.

which vegetable provides biosoluable B12?

Having lived on the Indian subcontinent, I can tell you that a lot of people who eat little to no meat do consume dairy products and eat eggs, milk and yogurt especially. Also, in that part of the world, many people who don't eat red meat will occasionally indulge in chicken ("occasionally" usually meaning "when they can afford it").

It might also be worth pointing out that (much like with Buddhism) the western and eastern concept of "vegetarian" tends to differ.

/Let's please not get into an argument about who is and isn't "really" vegetarian.

Another advantage to not eating red meat? MUCH lower prostate cancer rates.

AverageAmericanGuy:If she's still breastfeeding the boy, I'm not going to argue with her. There's no need for a kid to eat meat if he can consume breast milk. It contains all the nutrients babies need.