How is it not a good move? Wilcox has starter experience and produces consistently. And he was super cheap. And his contract expires the next year so he is tradable. And if he stays, we have the early bird rights to keep him.

That's a pretty damn smart signing.

While everyone else is sitting on their hands, Joe is grabbing the best of what is left.

No, we're not trying to get the top lotto pick, and no we're not going to win a title next year. If you have either of those expectations, you will be disappointed. And if you were a fan in 2001/2, this (rebuild) is what you have to look forward to. I think most of us realize that these moves are only the prelude to more moves, not a finished roster in one offseason.

It might be a decade before we see an ECF again. Get used to it. I certainly hope you're not going to complain and be disappointed every step of the way. The fun in sucking is enjoying the ride to the top.

Right now it seems like a good bet that we go into to the season w/ both of them.

How is it not a good move? Wilcox has starter experience and produces consistently. And he was super cheap. And his contract expires the next year so he is tradable. And if he stays, we have the early bird rights to keep him.

That's a pretty damn smart signing.

While everyone else is sitting on their hands, Joe is grabbing the best of what is left.

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If you've lowered your expectations significantly then sure it's a good move. If you told someone at the start of FA that Wilcox would end up being our center signing, i'm sure a good majority would be standing on the ledge.

No, we're not trying to get the top lotto pick, and no we're not going to win a title next year. If you have either of those expectations, you will be disappointed. And if you were here in 2001/2, that is what you have to look forward to. I think most of us realize that these moves are only the prelude to more moves, not a finished roster in one offseason.

It might be a decade before we see an ECF again. Get used to it. I certainly hope you're not going to complain and be disappointed every step of the way. The fun in sucking is enjoying the ride to the top.

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My expectations weren't either one of those things. I see us changing into an offensive team which i dislike and I was expecting us to at least to fill in the spots we needed not do more shuffling in our strongest position.

I don't mind the sucking if i can see a light at the end of the tunnel. Right now i see static.

Perfect. Del Boca Vista Phase I is now complete, bring out the tip calculators and the Manziers Baby, jump in your Caddillac and let's roll. Good Job Joe! We have youth, we have talent, and we have tradeable assets, and we're UNDER the cap!

This is how the last window was opened, nothing fancy, nothing mindblowing, just gambled on some guys that had something to prove, and BAM, over time we got a ring. Be patient, and maybe this time around if we're blessed to become a contender again, we'll appreciate more than we did the 1st time.

But looking at the future available or semi avaliable bigs, things look shaky. The only options seem to be Amare, Chandler or draft. I've pretty much xed out Bosh/Boozer at this point.

Unless CV improves tremendously, we are still going to have major problems with our FL.

And i'm worried that BG/Rip might be another combination that's going to explode. Although, they are apparently bonding already so who knows.

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The problem that I see is that when you talk about handful of the top players that you'd love to have on your team, there are other 30 teams that are in the same boat. Sure I'd love to have LeBron or Kobe on the Pistons. However, there are major issues that will most likely prevent Joe from being able to bring someone of the great talent to the team baring a miracle in the draft. And they are:

Salary cap - most of the time having a max type player on the roster requires team to go over the cap in order to have enough support to be able to compete for the championship. Pistons organization is clearly unwilling to go over the cap

Detroit is not a major market where more money-making opportunities are available

Detroit is not the most desirable "party" destination. Players are young and they want to have fun.

Detroit doesn't have the best climate. Players go to play for LA, Magic, Miami, etc. Detroit can't compete

Joe is looking for the high character guys. Not all of the players we discussed fall into that category

Don't know whether it's true or not, but by the looks of it Joe may be thinking the same thing and he is trying to build another way or to win without having a superstar on the team. He had success with it once, but it is a long term task. You can draw the parallels to any large business - overnight turnarounds are extremely rare and those who choose good long time strategy and stick with it most of the time will reap the success. Trying to patch the holes on the sinking ship doesn't work.

If you've lowered your expectations significantly then sure it's a good move. If you told someone at the start of FA that Wilcox would end up being our center signing, i'm sure a good majority would be standing on the ledge.

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Of course I adjusted my expectations. Why would I maintain high expectations when the team is obviously not that good?

Wilcox is a PF btw. He'll be as much of a center as McDyess was, which is to say, not at all. You can read Linwood's scouting reports from Seattle on Wilcox. He's a load at the 4.

My expectations weren't either one of those things. I see us changing into an offensive team which i dislike and I was expecting us to at least to fill in the spots we needed not do more shuffling in our strongest position.

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Defensive players are low priced talent. A dime a dozen. You sign them when you are capped out. Next offseason. Maybe the one after that.

You don't start a team with Bruce Bowen or James Posey or Udonis Haslem or Delonte West. Those guys come later in the rebuild.

Now a guy with post moves or a jump shot? They are rare. You gotta get them when they are available. Which is exactly what Joe did.

He had success with it once, but it is a long term task. You can draw the parallels to any large business - overnight turnarounds are extremely rare and those who choose good long time strategy and stick with it most of the time will reap the success. Trying to patch the holes on the sinking ship doesn't work.

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Oh that's goooooood Mikey!!! And it seems as if people wanted to do just that, Rip and Tay are on the decline and BOTH will need to be replaced sooner than later, Joe did it sooner, I'm sure if he could have signed a great PF or C this offseason he would've done it, but none were available, so he stockpiled talent.

I think I'm really tired of the Piston Fans who aren't NBA Fans, because if they really watched the game, they'd know this is a very solid signing. I guess people think it's easy to get 26 yr old PF/C's that can get you 13&8 everynight, he had 1 bad season because of injury and OKC going in a different direction, then he landed in New York as an expiring, if he comes in healthy and ready, WATCH OUT!!!!!

Oh that's goooooood Mikey!!! And it seems as if people wanted to do just that, Rip and Tay are on the decline and BOTH will need to be replaced sooner than later, Joe did it sooner, I'm sure if he could have signed a great PF or C this offseason he would've done it, but none were available, so he stockpiled talent.

I think I'm really tired of the Piston Fans who aren't NBA Fans, because if they really watched the game, they'd know this is a very solid signing. I guess people think it's easy to get 26 yr old PF/C's that can get you 13&8 everynight, he had 1 bad season because of injury and OKC going in a different direction, then he landed in New York as an expiring, if he comes in healthy and ready, WATCH OUT!!!!!

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I agree with most of what you write, except I don't think that Rip and Tay are on the decline side yet. I agree that there's no upside there, and most likely they've hit the plateau where they stay and sooner or later (Rip probably sooner, although look at Miller who was productive well into his mid 30's) they will begin the decline. Their contracts are also not the easiest to move, especially considering what this type of money will get you with the cap coming down.

After a whirlwind of a summer, this move is a breath of fresh air to me. It represents a low-risk move with the potential to pay huge dividends. Even if it doesn't, who the hell really cares? We pay Kwame Brown $4 million a season, and he's the worst player on the roster. If Wilcox absolutely flops in Detroit, he's still not going to be any worse than Brown is/has been/will be. And seriously, how can you even begin to argue with that? Another reason I'm excited over this deal is that we finally get the athletic big man we've been craving. You know what I'm talking about here; a guy who can bring fans to their feet multiple times a game. The alley-oop was a wonderful thing back in 2004-2005 with the Wallace brothers. But since? It's started to fizzle out. Tayshaun Prince and his stretchy arms can go up and catch a few every now and then, but I'll be damned if it didn't mean more for the fans when an over-sized post player does it. Heck, dunking as a whole has started to disappear from Detroit's offensive repertoire over the past few seasons with exception to Jason Maxiell's epic throwdowns. Wilcox, with his Dwight Howard-lite athleticism, can actually bring these magical two point plays back into the picture on a nightly basis. I will always support something that gets the people in the stands more involved in the game, and that's precisely why Wilcox has the potential to develop a nice cult following among Pistons fans. The moral? Dunking=Fun.
All in all, we needed size, and we paid a fairly small price to acquire it. Wilcox has most of the tools needed to become a legitimate starting center at some point in his career. Whether he instantly morphs into that type of dominant big man or not shouldn't really matter much here. This is a short-term answer and nothing more. Kwame Brown had no business being the only interior presence on our roster. Charlie Villanueva is basically a combo forward who is blessed with ideal size, and Jason Maxiell is a guy who should play exclusively at the four. After that, there's not one player left who can even be considered at the five. So with that in mind, giving Wilcox and Brown 24 minutes apiece seems like a win-win for me. Regardless of how subtle this signing may appear, I think Dumars definitely hit a home run here.

I mean, think back to when we got Sheed. No one saw that coming. That was a complicated trade that was kept almost completely off the radar. I think we dumped 5 players to get that done. Bobby Backache, Cheeser, Zelly, Lenz ...

What about Billups? We started the season, no one thought Chauncey would be gone in a week.

When moves come, they will come fast. That's generally how Joe has worked. He doesn't conduct a PR campaign around every move for weeks in advance, and he always plays his cards close.

I mean, think back to when we got Sheed. No one saw that coming. That was a complicated trade that was kept almost completely off the radar. I think we dumped 5 players to get that done. Bobby Backache, Cheeser, Zelly, Lenz ...

What about Billups? We started the season, no one thought Chauncey would be gone in a week.

When moves come, they will come fast. That's generally how Joe has worked. He doesn't conduct a PR campaign around every move for weeks in advance, and he always plays his cards close.

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Hell I remember when Joe traded our best SG, who was a blue collar tough as nails player for a player thin as a nail, and NOBODY saw that one coming!

How is it not a good move? Wilcox has starter experience and produces consistently. And he was super cheap. And his contract expires the next year so he is tradable. And if he stays, we have the early bird rights to keep him.

That's a pretty damn smart signing.

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Right. We effectively just traded Afflalo for Wilcox. I don't see how we are acquiring 'as many SG's as possible' when we just traded one.

No one knows what the grand plan is going to end up looking like yet (not even Joe does), but it's obvious that the pieces are coming together.

I'm going to take a stab in the dark here and suggest you don't like jigsaw puzzles do you lpgrl26?...

Right. We effectively just traded Afflalo for Wilcox. I don't see how we are acquiring 'as many SG's as possible' when we just traded one.

No one knows what the grand plan is going to end up looking like yet (not even Joe does), but it's obvious that the pieces are coming together.

I'm going to take a stab in the dark here and suggest you don't like jigsaw puzzles do you lpgrl26?...

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Hey, webz, one can always put a different spin on a ball. For example, we traded Afflalo, but we got Gordon. We traded Amir, but we got Wilcox. You know, for some people the glass is always half-empty.

While i thank Joe for proving my point, i really wish i felt like he had some sort of direction or "grand plan" instead of "i like you, i sign you" or a fixation on aquiring as many SG's as possible.

From the get go we signed BG. People criticized the move. People responded to that criticism w/ "hello, don't you know Rip is getting traded? and that's how wwe'll get out big. Joe knows what he's doing"

Time passes it becomes obvious we are not trading Rip, and then we give AA to DEN. Another stupid move justified by Joe working on some super secret trade for a franchise or close caliber big.

Now we signed Chris Wilcox and it's a "good move". This off-season IMO started on a bad note and now we aren't that much better just different; same problems at PG,SF, and C.

Barring any other moves we are mediocre; not good (or bad) enough to secure a high pick and not good enough to win it all.

edited to add;

And before i get jumped on for not being a "true fan", when IMO my team has gone retarded, i'm entitled to voice that opinion. I'm not in the mood to be a cheerleader when i'm dissappointed with the direction or lack there of.

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Co-signed. How can Rip and or Tay still be on this team? It boggles the mind.

So you're saying that you never acted as a middlemen in transporting illegal goods? How was he supposed to feed his family on a rookie contract?

As for the move, it's the best we could have done. as far as FA goes. Still want a friggin' trade though. "Solid but unspectacular." He's not a good defender either, but he's a body.

And if we are done making moves, on paper, we're looking a HELL of a lot like the Indiana Pacers. Be prepared for a lot of losses where we score at least a 100 points. I'm not one of those "ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE!!!" folks who is on the edge of his seat anticipating some black magic Gasol-for-Kwame crap, but we still have our assets, and we have roster options for the future. We're likely going into the season with what we got.

I'm NOT thrilled about keeping both Ben and Rip. Actually I'm not thrilled with having Rip at all. I don't think he's going to age well. He can't stroke the three like Reggie, nor can he act like him. But if he can grow up and accept the bench role later in his career, then maybe it wont be so bad. Let's be honest, he's one of the most untradeable players in the league if you're trying to look for even value.

Co-signed. How can Rip and or Tay still be on this team? It boggles the mind.

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Every GM has their pets, and I think that Rip and Tay are Joe's. Think about it. Last year Joe talks all this "no sacred cow" BS which nearly all of our starters exhibited. And right off the bat, Rip acts like a sacred cow following the trade, and everyone involved gets reprimanded by the organization EXCEPT Rip, who then get's another mulligan.

In this respect, I think Joe is full of crap. Strong words and no accountability for the players. And when he does get rid of a player, it's because of age, health, and cap reasons.

Hell I remember when Joe traded our best SG, who was a blue collar tough as nails player for a player thin as a nail, and NOBODY saw that one coming!

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And signed an unproven PG that had bounced around FIVE teams in SIX seasons before coming here for the MLE... sounded like a journeyman to me.

Joe has always brought in cast-offs that some how end up jelling here. Just look at the long list of players that's been here since 2000. The only PTP'er(other than A.I.) was 'Sheed and we've all heard the story on him. He likes to get players that have something to prove.