Mike Martz wasn't a great HC or OC in my opinion. As an offensive coordinator, he was given tools that any decent coach could make work well. His offense was not innovative, it was a copy of a forgotten offense run by Don (air) Coryell. If Martz were truly a great OC, why is he not still coaching? Because, like Don Coryells offense, defenses figured it out and Martz wasn't good enough to evolve with the defenses. He stubbornly refused to change what he wanted to do, despite defenses taking it away. (see Superbowl XXVI) His stubborness cost the Rams their second superbowl.

As a head coach and leader of a football team, he wasn't great, or good. He just plain sucked.

-05-02-2014

NJ Ramsfan1

Re: Love him or hate him

Quote:

Originally Posted by RAMFANRAIDERHATER

Mike Martz wasn't a great HC or OC in my opinion. As an offensive coordinator, he was given tools that any decent coach could make work well. His offense was not innovative, it was a copy of a forgotten offense run by Don (air) Coryell. If Martz were truly a great OC, why is he not still coaching? Because, like Don Coryells offense, defenses figured it out and Martz wasn't good enough to evolve with the defenses. He stubbornly refused to change what he wanted to do, despite defenses taking it away. (see Superbowl XXVI) His stubborness cost the Rams their second superbowl.

As a head coach and leader of a football team, he wasn't great, or good. He just plain sucked.

I think it is only fair to give credit to him for his success as an O-Coordinator. Not doing so is akin to saying Phil Jackson or Joe Torre are overrated because they too had talent. You still have to make it work and effectively manage people. And without Martz' contributions, we would not have won a Super Bowl. I firmly believe that.

My issue with Martz stems from his arrogance as head coach in thinking that as long as he ran his offense the way he wanted that nothing else mattered- timeouts, special teams, brazen and needless gambling, etc. Your statement that he "stubbornly refused to change what he wanted to do" despite defenses adapting is 100% on target.

I really wish Dick Vermeil hadn't retired prematurely. We could have had a really nice run for years and at the same time avoided the dramatic downturn of fortunes we've suffered as a franchise.

-05-02-2014

gap

Re: Love him or hate him

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rambos

I have seen him say on NFL Films that he learned the Rams did not resign London Fletcher when he wanted to resign him badly.

The whole FO IMO was a mess during these times and he was a part of the circus. I also think his ego got in the way and he rubbed a lot of people the wrong way and he burnt some bridges during his time as the Rams HC and that may have carried over after he was done here.

I remember all the emails that were flying through the RAMPagers list when DOT COM refused to sign with the RAMS again. It was a combination of "he's over priced himself" to "we need to pay him what he wants". Fletcher ended up signing with someone else (Washington or Bills???) for less than what the RAMS were offereing. That one falls squarely on the FO, and their non-player friendly personnel.

gap

-05-02-2014

macrammer

Re: Love him or hate him

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJ Ramsfan1

I really wish Dick Vermeil hadn't retired prematurely. We could have had a really nice run for years and at the same time avoided the dramatic downturn of fortunes we've suffered as a franchise.

I agree here. Remember, the Rams were horrible BEFORE Vermeil. Then lightning in a bottle struck. It was great. But all too short. Martz was not a good H/C as aptly pointed out by many. The FO was a joke up to and during the SB years. Martz helped create our surrent mess along with the woebegone H/C that proceeded him. This organization really had a chance to make its mark for most of the decade instead of of crashing and burning like we did.

-05-02-2014

Curly Horns

Re: Love him or hate him

Good Title for this Topic that never seems to completely go away.

Just my take on what I remember:

After the completion of the '99 regular season the interest had peaked and the talk was that Martz would be hired away as HC elsewhere. As we all know that did not happen.

Everybody seemingly Loved Mike Martz from '99 til '02. I think if everyone were truly honest we would be hard pressed to find any Rams fans that HATED Martz during those years. I think Martz was an innovator with his approach towards an offensive attack. He did not invent the offense that he used but he took it to levels the likes of which had arguably never been seen before at a time when no others were using a similar approach.

After the '00 season, his first as HC, it was obvious the defense had grown old and needed rebuilt. Would DV, being a known loyalist to veteran players, have took on the task in the way that was needed and rebuilt that Defense? Personally I don't think so.

And rebuild it he did. The very next season the Rams were right back in the SB. And I don't remember any Martz HATERS right up until kickoff of that SB game. But afterwards, WOW, an entire legion of fans became Mike Martz HATERS. I don't think I've ever seen anything like it. Especially not with the Rams. Not even with that ultra conservative bonehead Chuck Knox.

I must admit that there were times when Martz left me shaking my head. Namely the infamous loss to carolina in the '04 playoffs. But right up until his last complete season ('04) Martz had the Rams competitive and in the playoffs. I especially enjoyed the ending to that '04 season when the Rams completed a 3 game season sweep of the seahacks at seattle in the playoffs.

In the end, I think Martz can best be summoned up as many peoples favorite scapegoat.

"Love him or Hate him"

Seems to me it will always be both!

-05-02-2014

turbofargo

Re: Love him or hate him

I wanted to know something about Martz's offense that I wonder if I was just seeing things or other people picked up on it.

In the early part of Martz's time there, especially the 99 team, one of the dynamics that I thought made them so explosive was their multi-formations. I remember WRs, TEs RBs everyone never really staying still on anyone play and it seemed to work. The offense always had mismatches, had the defense guessing, etc.

Then in the later yrs of his tenure they seemed a lot more stagnant in the formations. Around then is when the offense slowed down the points production and explosiveness.

Did anyone else noticed this coorelation? If so any reasons to it. That would seem to be a prime example of Martz's direct influence and the dismissal of a key component to the teams success. If not then I might just be seeing things or reading too many conspiracy theory books.

-05-02-2014

r8rh8rmike

Re: Love him or hate him

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curly Horns

And I don't remember any Martz HATERS right up until kickoff of that SB game. But afterwards, WOW, an entire legion of fans became Mike Martz HATERS.

Yes, there were a legion of Martz haters after the SB 36 loss, with good reason IMO. And let's keep things in perspective here, "hate" is in the context of a football discussion. I don't think anybody really hated Martz, but they certainly hated many of the things he did, and his ego as well.

-05-03-2014

Fortuninerhater

Re: Love him or hate him

Quote:

Originally Posted by HUbison

Say what you will, but.........no Martz, no Super Bowl ring.

I'm pretty sure the discussion is mainly about Mike Martz the Head Coach, not The OC.

-05-03-2014

citr92

Re: Love him or hate him

Quote:

Originally Posted by r8rh8rmike

Yes, there were a legion of Martz haters after the SB 36 loss, with good reason IMO. And let's keep things in perspective here, "hate" is in the context of a football discussion. I don't think anybody really hated Martz, but they certainly hated many of the things he did, and his ego as well.

I wasn't a fan of Martz either

but i don't put that SB loss on him especially considering what happened with certain people taping practice

-05-03-2014

Flippin' Ram

Re: Love him or hate him

He could've beaten the Pats if he knew how to gameplan around that defense. At least when Vermeil coached our Super Bowl, he started making adjustments with emphasis on the passing game when Faulk wasn't effective. In Martz's case, he got crazy with the passing game and even a solid pass rush will ruin it rather than emphasis on quick throws and the running game.

-05-03-2014

r8rh8rmike

Re: Love him or hate him

Quote:

Originally Posted by citr92

I wasn't a fan of Martz either

but i don't put that SB loss on him especially considering what happened with certain people taping practice

I'm not sure we want to get too deep into this, but 17 carries for the best back in the NFL, while the officials were allowing the defense to mug our receivers, was a critical error IMO.

-05-03-2014

MoonJoe

Re: Love him or hate him

I loved him for the single fact of when the punter was injured and out of the game, he just kept going for it on 4th down every time. Yes he's a head case and that caught up with him eventually, but dang it he tried. He took risk and damned the torpedos and went full speed ahead. Way more than I can ever say for Linehan, Brooks and Spags.