Heruka wrote:i think these two, are/were practioners, gained some experience and knowledge, and wanted to display/manifest their joy and peace of mind and maybe make some money for food off of that. hey in my world, no problem.

Not just that, Heruka.. they're outright teaching Thogal, leading workshops, etc. This is where things get especially hairy. As you said

this is very serious stuff.

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

like i said on page one of this topic, the fact that the visions are the main focus, that is the gorilla in the room for myself, my own personal opinion.

i read somewhere it is very incorrect to write how the vission "looks like" because obscurations for future practitioners who will somehow expect such in the same manner or even projected the similar... and of course it will be not "lhundrub", let alone writing about one's own achievements how one is "advanced" ....but i'm not a teacher but only some my info

Maybe we can encourage eachother to know all have compassion, all have wisdom, all have power of capabilty. This is our nature.

Then to remain aware of the nature of my great fabrications-ideas, i can do. Then clarifying words not discouraging.

When there is the idea to get some satisfaction by judging someone else ( dual misperception) bring ruin to own being while helpless guided by emotions, grasping thoughts, dragged as slave by them instead of recognizing them ( khorde rushen, antidotes...), using them by Bodhichitta, awareness. Not judging "advanced one" but (all encompassing) compassion and by that clarifying.

Vision is free from all obscurations.

Last edited by muni on Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

"Thank you Pema Rigdzin, it might be the guys and this story could explain why they don't mention their teacher and lineage. However as for completion of the path of Tögal, for me that would be the rainbow body. I am very surprised of their claim to say the least. I read somewhere else about Tibetan yogis that claimed the "completed the path of Tögal" in a year or so but I just can't wrap my mind around this claim from either westerners or Tibetans. /magnus"

Yes, these are the same couple, and yes, according to Lama Drimed (by way of a Dharma brother of mine who I highly respect), there is, in his opinion, some problem with samaya involved. My Dharma brother, an old-time student of Tulku Urgyen, has met this couple when they gave talks in the Denver area a few months back and he was very impressed with them. In fact, my friend thought they were the most accomplished Western practitioners he had ever met. (I believe those were his words or very close to them.) For whatever reason, I chose not to go to those talks. Something just didn't feel right with me. I believe they showed pictures of their visions. From their activities, it seems they are looking for students.

pemachophel wrote:"Yes, these are the same couple, and yes, according to Lama Drimed (by way of a Dharma brother of mine who I highly respect), there is, in his opinion, some problem with samaya involved. My Dharma brother, an old-time student of Tulku Urgyen, has met this couple when they gave talks in the Denver area a few months back and he was very impressed with them. In fact, my friend thought they were the most accomplished Western practitioners he had ever met. (I believe those were his words or very close to them.) For whatever reason, I chose not to go to those talks. Something just didn't feel right with me. I believe they showed pictures of their visions. From their activities, it seems they are looking for students.

Thank you for more informations. May I ask if They met other lamas /rinpoches of the nyinthik who were also impressed with them? Their genuine achievements, if so, should be checked if They are really looking for students I guess.

pemachophel wrote:"Thank you Pema Rigdzin, it might be the guys and this story could explain why they don't mention their teacher and lineage. However as for completion of the path of Tögal, for me that would be the rainbow body. I am very surprised of their claim to say the least. I read somewhere else about Tibetan yogis that claimed the "completed the path of Tögal" in a year or so but I just can't wrap my mind around this claim from either westerners or Tibetans. /magnus"

Yes, these are the same couple, and yes, according to Lama Drimed (by way of a Dharma brother of mine who I highly respect), there is, in his opinion, some problem with samaya involved. My Dharma brother, an old-time student of Tulku Urgyen, has met this couple when they gave talks in the Denver area a few months back and he was very impressed with them. In fact, my friend thought they were the most accomplished Western practitioners he had ever met. (I believe those were his words or very close to them.) For whatever reason, I chose not to go to those talks. Something just didn't feel right with me. I believe they showed pictures of their visions. From their activities, it seems they are looking for students.

Thank you for the additional information pemachophel. The "looking for students" bit also feels a bit off for me. The other day I remembered something Khenpo Chöga told me 15 years or more ago; "Now you received these teachings and you should practice. Stay in some nice place in the country, maybe on a hill, and one day someone will arrive and ask you about these teachings and at that time you can share them". Feels a bit more natural for me. Dharma just isn't a good way to make a living. 30 years ago I used to do Tarot cards for money and it always felt like it was a rather sharp edge balancing between the need for money and the uncomfortable facts the cards used to show.

/magnus

We are all here to help each other go through this, whatever it is.~Kurt Vonnegut

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

"Even though you have recognized your essence, if you do not get accustomed to it,You will be carried away by the enemy of thoughts, like a small child in a battle field.So long as you are not free from the limitations of accepting and rejecting,That long will you not recognize the view of the innermost secret heart-essence."

pemachophel wrote:"Yes, these are the same couple, and yes, according to Lama Drimed (by way of a Dharma brother of mine who I highly respect), there is, in his opinion, some problem with samaya involved.

Yup.

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

Heruka wrote:i still like the look of this couple, i think they would make for a very nice stop and chat over some chang or tea.

there has been some speculation and hearsay, but nothing concrete, so i would remain cautious, respectful, open to some possibility.

yogi can be open to any situation, with no problem.

you can travel around and stay in any place with anyone, again no problems if you are secure and confident in your own practice.

you may even influence the ones you think might try to influence you.

where is fear, but in the mind.

Oh, they look nice alright. Just can't get the completion part, the rainbow body included. The hobbit houses, the paintings and their writing all sounds nice but rather distant from my own path. It just doesn't smell Vajrayana, and Dzogchen without Vajrayana is a pipe dream.

/magnus

We are all here to help each other go through this, whatever it is.~Kurt Vonnegut

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

"Even though you have recognized your essence, if you do not get accustomed to it,You will be carried away by the enemy of thoughts, like a small child in a battle field.So long as you are not free from the limitations of accepting and rejecting,That long will you not recognize the view of the innermost secret heart-essence."

heart wrote:Oh, they look nice alright. Just can't get the completion part, the rainbow body included. The hobbit houses, the paintings and their writing all sounds nice but rather distant from my own path. It just doesn't smell Vajrayana, and Dzogchen without Vajrayana is a pipe dream.

/magnus

well ok, i can respect that, and you can have that opinion, since you are invested in that approach, thats cool.

i for one, cannot make rainbow body (even if i knew how) and thats a reality ive accepted, and i dont kid myself about it.

Heruka wrote:i still like the look of this couple, i think they would make for a very nice stop and chat over some chang or tea.

there has been some speculation and hearsay, but nothing concrete, so i would remain cautious, respectful, open to some possibility.

yogi can be open to any situation, with no problem.

you can travel around and stay in any place with anyone, again no problems if you are secure and confident in your own practice.

you may even influence the ones you think might try to influence you.

where is fear, but in the mind.

What do you need that's concrete? They were informed by their own Guru that they hadn't reached the level they thought they had after 9 years retreat. Instead of accepting their Guru's wisdom, and continuing their practice, they broke off from him and started a lineage-less attempt to teach Dzogchen. (At least they didn't decapitate him, as Rudra did to his Guru) Now, I can't claim any realization at all and don't know much about Thogal level practice, but when I weigh what little I do know about Ati Yoga and what I've been taught, something is off about this story. Also, marketing their visions? Creating a new Dzogchen brand name, and seeking students? Here again is a quote regarding Dzogchen practice from Patrul Rinpoche's The Words of My Perfect Teacher:

"Better than meditating on a hundred thousand deitiesFor ten million kalpasIs to think of one's teacher for a single instant.

This is especially true in this particular vehicle, the heart essence of the natural Great Perfection, the vajra core-teaching. Here it is not taught that the profound truth should be established on the basis of analysis and logic, as is the practice in the lower vehicles. Nor is it said that common accomplishments should be used in order to finally obtain supreme accomplishment, as in the lower tantras. The use of the illustrative primal wisdom of the third empowerment to introduce true primal wisdom is not stressed, as it is in the other higher tantras. What is taught in this tradition is to pray with fervent devotion and complete faith to a supremely realized teacher whose lineage is like a golden chain untarnished by any variance with the samayas, to rely on him alone and to consider him to be a real Buddha; in this way, your mind will merge completely with his. By the power of his blessings being transferred to you, realization will take birth. As we have quoted before:

Innate absolute wisdom can only comeAs the mark of having accumulated merit and purified obscurationsAnd through the blessings of a realized teacher.Know that to rely on any other means is foolish.

How do we reconcile this passage with their actions?

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

It is said; When one see all chatter is magic and all and all is own mind, not sure what condition is adding something other than to recognize where all wrong ones and little bit wrong ones and maybe wrong ones arise in the levels of judgement. They all 'arise' in my own limitations in thinking the wrongs really exists and all wrongs can be cleaned at once. So therefore now I take all the wrong ones as practice. Then wisdom can discriminate to help.

heart wrote:Oh, they look nice alright. Just can't get the completion part, the rainbow body included. The hobbit houses, the paintings and their writing all sounds nice but rather distant from my own path. It just doesn't smell Vajrayana, and Dzogchen without Vajrayana is a pipe dream.

/magnus

well ok, i can respect that, and you can have that opinion, since you are invested in that approach, thats cool.

i for one, cannot make rainbow body (even if i knew how) and thats a reality ive accepted, and i dont kid myself about it.

can you? (rhetorical)

if not, its just more smoke blown out of ones ass.

I know the method to achieve a rainbowbody, it is included in one of my Dzogchen manuals. I think it is a great idea to apply it if one have reached the fourth vision, what about you?I am not sure what approach you think I invested in? The hobbit houses?

/magnus

We are all here to help each other go through this, whatever it is.~Kurt Vonnegut

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

"Even though you have recognized your essence, if you do not get accustomed to it,You will be carried away by the enemy of thoughts, like a small child in a battle field.So long as you are not free from the limitations of accepting and rejecting,That long will you not recognize the view of the innermost secret heart-essence."

We are all here to help each other go through this, whatever it is.~Kurt Vonnegut

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

"Even though you have recognized your essence, if you do not get accustomed to it,You will be carried away by the enemy of thoughts, like a small child in a battle field.So long as you are not free from the limitations of accepting and rejecting,That long will you not recognize the view of the innermost secret heart-essence."