How do you make the idea of hell match up with that of love?

I typically prefer to deal in quantifiable subjects, but this is a thought that resurfaced in my mind recently and was one of the first thoughts that led to my de-conversion from Christianity some years ago.

So, how does the idea of hell fit into the supposition that God is, by definition (since God IS love, according to the Bible) loving and, presumably, merciful. As I understood it, hell was to be the eternal punishment for those who rebelled against God and his salvation through Jesus by not accepting or believing or leading wicked lives. Now, I can understand those types of people not receiving an eternal reward in the form of everlasting life in Heaven, on a new earth, etc. After all, that is fair - if everybody were to be allowed into heaven, then it would be full of murderers and evil people and atheists and would be a very chaotic place indeed! But, I have always failed to see the point in torturing, for eternity, all those who do not end up in an everlasting reward - which does include even many "good" people who simply didn't have the right heart, or weren't really faithful or whatever (many seek to enter, but will not be able...). Consider that this means that in order for a person to think of this as being just and righteous and becoming of a purely holy being, they must accept ETERNAL TORTURE of those who fail to pass beyond judgment.

Even humankind, which is definitely NOT holy or inherently righteous by any standards, does not condone (in general accord) the torture of criminals and murderers, but will either lock them away from the population for their lives or execute them humanely. It just seems to me that an omnipotent and merciful being would have both the capability and desire to come up with, at the very least, a less sadistic solution than humanity's for those who are judged unworthy of paradise. How about simply extinguishing the souls that don't make it, rather than giving them agony forever? If I could understand a sensible reason why Christianity attributes such characteristics to its deity, then that would be one less apparent contradiction to contend with.

This is a valid point, Baileybear. I've heard the hell-is-separation-from-God doctrine before, but I think perhaps the separation tammybarnette is referring to is not a separation of location, but rather a separation of spirit. However, there are also doctrines that teach that this is what the "death" that was spoken of by God at the garden of Eden was - a death of separation from fellowship with God.But, that still doesn't seem to have much clout, since non-believers already don't fellowship with God and so hell wouldn't be a really awful place for them if that's all it was.

The death in the garden was physical death. Adam and eve were not spiritual beings they were made of the ground, like we are, but the difference being that God puts his spirit in us in the NT dispensation according to joel 2:23. The natural always comes first and then the spiritual. OT natural, NT spiritual.Eternal separation from God only happens one way, extinguishment: the second death as it is referred to in the book of revelation. The first death is of the body the second death is obliteration completely. What part of all creation is God gonna partition for lost souls to aimlessly wander forever and ever.. and what happiness does God get out of it? God takes no joy in the sufferings of people. He even hated doing what he did in the OT -Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? -but he did it because Law requires a punishment - as do our laws today - and often out of protectiveness and because he had no other choice.But separation from God is impossible geographically, David said, if i go up to heaven, you are there, and if i go down to hell, you are there.. meaning there is no where to go that God is not there. The universe is in God.So my belief is that God out of love, destroys those who do not meet the qualifications (and there are qualifications for everything) for entrance into what God has for His children - the ones that delight to do His will - and he will certainly snuff out the workers of iniquity with maybe a slight grin.

First, Hell is but a holding place for those who have died without knowing about God and Jesus and without having chosen to accept Jesus as Lord and Redeemer. The Bible tells us that Hell and Death will be tossed into the "Eternal Lake of Fire."

The lake of fire where satan, the anti-christ, the false prophet, and all those who refuse to accept Jesus as the redeemer will be tossed into. The suffering of these people is not a physical suffering but a spiritual one for they will never be permitted to see or know God and God's love. These spirits will have chosen their own fate by denying to recognize God as their creator and Jesus as the redeemer of all who have sinned against God.

I don't mean any disrespect when I ask this, but do you honestly believe that? Reading through it, it sounds so far fetched; how long did it take you to come to the point where you decided to take it seriously?

Dave Mathews, I had actually forgotten about that. It's from the book of Revelations, right? So, then, this seems actually to imply that hell is NOT the same as the lake of fire...But, if hell is cast into the lake of fire, and all the non-believers and unredeemed are in hell, then would that mean that they go into the lake of fire along with hell?

Doesn't say 'eternal' lake of fire and are you taking the lake of fire, literally? Revelation is pretty much all metaphor, allegory, simile.

Hell is the grave dave, sheol. Its not the catholic doctrine of eternal fires. Death and the grave... meaning there will be no more death and no more grave to those after judgment. I know it seems prudent to picture Hell going into the lake of fire, but isn't hell fire, so what benefit would it have to throw fire into fire. And if the lake is a literal lake of fire, what pain can physical fire have on a spirit? Spirits can walk around in hell all they want and the fire won't even singe them, nor can they feel heat.I appreciate how far you have come away from catholicism, bravo! you need to research this hell thing a bit more. in love.Again, what's the point of hell, there's no one in it until after judgment, which hasn't happened yet and so as soon as they are in it, they get tossed again? For it is appointed once for man to die and then the judgment... people haven't gone to hell because that would mean judgment and judgment hasn't happened yet.food for thought bro

This is a tough question, and one that I probably can't articulate an answer to very well so I've found some quotes from some better thinkers than myself. I hope you don't mind.

This first one is from C. S. Lewis.Hell begins with a grumbling mood, always complaining, always blaming others . . . but you are still distinct from it. You may even criticize it in yourself and wish you could stop it. But there may come a day when you can no longer. Then there will be no you left to criticize the mood or even to enjoy it, but just the grumble itself, going on forever like a machine. It is not a question of God 'sending us' to hell. In each of us there is something growing, which will BE Hell unless it is nipped in the bud.

I think what he is getting at is that hell is the logical and natural outcome of being self-centered instead of God-centered.

The next person I want to bring into this discussion is Tim Keller, a pastor in New York City who has worked hard to make his church accessible and relevant to skeptics.

and he had 4 main points about why it's important.1. It is important because Jesus taught about it more than all other Biblical authors put together.2. It is important because it shows how infinitely dependent we are on God for everything. 3. It is important because it unveils the seriousness and danger of living life for yourself.4. The doctrine of hell is important because it is the only way to know how much Jesus loved us and how much he did for us.

I think his explanation of the last point in the article is central to understanding how a loving God and hell can co-exist.

Love C.S. Lewis and his way of thinking outside the typically canonical box. Still, seems like the idea of hell being what grows inside of you after ignoring God for long enough is somewhat unsupported by any actual scripture. I agree that it is a very appealing and poetic perspective, however.

Hell is that world which you create for yourself, with help from everyone you've ever known. It is a chain which is forged, link by link, which you wear in the here and now. What comes after you draw your last breath has nothing to do with a material place. In the creation of Genesis, hell is not on the list, and God steps back, takes a good look, and declares everything good. Get a grip, qwark, you aren't an anti-evangelist, so why try to bait believers just so you can pick on 'em and laugh at them...then you want people to see things your way. Don't hold your breath.

Once everyone realizes that we aren't merely individuals here to drain this world dry of all resources and stamp out the tenuous hold we all, every living thing, has on life. Everything is inter-connected. The whole world is our eco-system, not just your spot in it. (Not you personally, qwark.) The planets and stars, galaxies. Everything is interconnected. It is this that I speak to and about.

oh come on.. there's so many dead ends and uncompleted thoughts and assumed positions and speculations... it was both sad and ridiculous.

Ya don't have to be an expert to listen and comprehend, bit of a weakness on your part however

I also recall an interview richard dawkins had with someone and at the end richard looked like a man who had crapped his pants. He was circular talking and you could see his forehead tightening.. a bit of desperation.. lol. That was sad too.

when krauss said forget jesus dying for you the stars did that. That was the saddest part.

No such notion crossed by mind. Not once. Okay, if you say so. But, that does explain a lot, which I am definitely not going to get into in this thread. I'd rather not be accused of hi-jacking your thread.

Well, you know, you are free to comment as you like. It's not really "my" thread, after all. I have learned that following a forum in the Religion and Beliefs category is a great way to completely fill your inbox, though...

The omnipotent and omniscient creature known as God created man in such a manner that the vast majority of mankind is predestined (through Gods omniscience) never to enter heaven.

God must do something else with the malcontents He created in such a way as to be unable to enter heaven, but is unable, in His omnipotence, to simply destroy them. Rather he must put them somewhere and, in His omnipotence, cannot create another such place.

Therefore He puts us into Hell, run by His arch-enemy whom He cannot destroy, either. Being unable, in His omnipotence, to destroy or change hell, He will therefore love us while He allows us to be tortured for eternity.

God - the omnipotent being that cannot act but loves us even as we are tortured due to His incompetence.

That's exactly what I thought!!Now, I'm really counting on some Christians to come through for me and explain this - preferably in a way that doesn't totally destroy any semblance of rationality that they have.

That's easy. Although God knows everything and thus knows the future Mankind has free will and can change his choices at any time which will not affect the future because God will then know the new future that man cannot change because God is omniscient. Got it?

Because we have free will we are able to choose to suffer an eternity of Hell and thus do so by the billions. But God loves us and would not do that to us so Hell is not as we were taught but a place of teaching and learning (this is where the 72 virgins come into the plot) so that we can go to heaven and because Satan is really an angel he will facilitate that learning process with the torture that doesn't really happen so that he will not be able to torture us any more. Still with me here?

After the eternity of torture with the virgins is over we will go to live with the God whose incompetence started the whole thing wrong and whose omnipotence made it impossible for him to change. As you, the mathsciguy, already understand infinity and therefore eternity I should not have to explain how this part works.

I personally kind of like the one where Christianity is actually a test to see who doesn't get into heaven - after all, for a person to be okay with worshiping Christianity's God, they have to think that it is praiseworthy and totally alright to subject dissidents to torment forever. Whatever happened to "do unto others?" So, the people who decide that this is the religion for them are the ones who actually, by means of this clever test, don't get to spend eternity with all the other non-torturing souls of the heathen.

But, as I said, perhaps some Christian will give a defense that will be illuminating and change my mind about that point.

And so it begins, just as predicted. A.S.K.Preacher explains that we go to hell as a result of choices made. It is our choice, to be made in spite of Gods will.

Tammy says that there is no suffering while Dave confirms that the "Lake of Fire" is eternal forever while agreeing with Tammy that it won't hurt at all.

aka-dj complains that the 72 virgins is not a biblical concept, but does acknowledge that it is a religious concept in Islam (that shares the same history with Christianity). All we need is an actual muslim to confirm.

All that is left is to discover that Hell is actually purgatory and after repenting we will be let out to go to God - I'm sure that will be explained as soon as we can find someone of the Catholic persuasion.

You have misunderstood, It will hurt a lot!!! Seperation from God is torture, when Jesus cried out from the cross,Lord why have you forsaken me, it was the seperation he felt which was far worse than the torture he had suffered from mankind. It is a choice, it is freewill. I choose to go to heaven. Jesus said, there are two roads, choose wisely.

I beg to differ. Jesus said those words because his flesh was in unimaginable pain and God seemed to be paying no attention and refused to help.

I have suffered isolation from God my entire adult life, ever since I grew out of the baseless and irrational beliefs of childhood, but there has never been any pain from that separation. Like I said, it won't hurt.

No, I am sorry, you are wrong. He would have been saying that over and over for hours if it were physical pain, it was only when he had to feel that pain of seperation that he cried out. I am sorry you feel that God has not been there for you, but have you asked? God is a loving God, there is no other feeling in the world that compares.

I have found that the world has a lot of ignorant people in it and the majority of the population of the world has a religious view of some kind. Since I don't see things as a coincidence and things happens for a reason, then it is easily to conclude that ignorance and believers go hand in hand.

I have never understood why anyone would have a hard time with belief, but unfortuantley I have met many here on hub pages and it makes me very sad. You are simply being a mouth piesce for satan and under his control because for no other reason would you need to come to a christian forum.

This is the kind of respectful behavior you can expect from atheists. They didn't ask the question about hell because they wanted to know what you thought; they do it to ridicule you. Cat face is a good example. They need to step on you to make themselves feel important, because they don't have anything better to do on Friday night...

Cagsil, You seem very defensive for someone without belief. Your logic is misguided. I am a very logical left-brained person who has the ultimate faith in my Lord. Faith is stronger than logic. Belief is harder than disbelief. I choose to walk the road less traveled, you apparently choose the road of least resistance. If you have no belief, then why are you here on this forum? You could never cause a true christian to take your word over God's word. So why? Just to irritate?

You just have different views of the bible and Jesus than Cagsil does.

You are making assumtions based on the fact that Cagsil is offering a different view in a public discussion forum. And since it is different from your beliefs, you automatically assume, 1. That is is Cagsils personal belief and 2. That Cagsil is a non-believer.

You are posting your beliefs...Some of us that are labeled as "non-believers" are posting thoughts, views and ideas in an attempt to gain and or spread education. And we keep our personal beliefs to ourselves unless directly asked for them.

On what planet do you live? I'll agree, she definitely has a different view on the bible than I do. You've made assumptions too. Like you know what you're talking about. I hold NO belief. So, I don't know what you're talking about. Secondly, I don't share my beliefs at all with people in a public forum.Education is the demise of religion and religious views.I have beliefs. This much I will say, but my beliefs are no one's business and I only give them, when I feel that someone has a need to know them. And, just so you know, no one on Hubpages has a need to know what they are. Only family and close friends(and I have no close friends online(I do have friends, but none that are really close)).

So I was correct in what I posted...Then Deleted because the comment wasn't directed at me...

Please re-read what I actually wrote. Other than stating that you are a believer (and you are in your own way) I wasn't really taking about you... I was talking about the fact that there were assumptions made based off of views, thoughts or ideas that are posted, and those post are always the personal belief of the person posting.

My dear Tammy, I was once like you. It's a pleasure I am not anymore.My logic is misguided. This is coming from someone who believes in a god. Thank you for the laughs.And, apparently you've lack rationale. My post wasn't even talking to you, so how does your logic figure into my post to someone else?I guess your faith is stronger than your logic, since you have none. I don't have a disbelief. I don't have a belief at all. On a side note, I don't discuss my beliefs with people in public forums. Too bad you cannot tell the difference. What else is new.Less traveled? 66% of the population is walking your belief. How is that less traveled? You claim I am taking the road of least resistance? Again, you fail in logic, considering 66% of the population is religious of some sort...so do tell me...EXACTLY...How is my road least resistance when I have to put up with the ignorance I pointed out to you earlier in my previous post? You make no sense.Do you not read? Damn, woman.Actually, you should speak for yourself, instead of trying to speak for others. You have no clue what impact I have on people. You can only speak for yourself. So, stick to that.You don't read or comprehend well do you? I already said.If you are irritated, then I suggest you learn to work on your tolerance issues. And, maybe a little bit of humility while you're at it. Your words beat you and all I had to do was point out the flaws.

But, I have to ask this question of you because I have never, in my 68 yrs of living and questioning, found any one who could answer it for me in any form but opinion, with no basis in fact.

You seem to be a strong christian fundamentalist. If you are, I'm curious about your reasons for being that.

My question is: "What is this "god thing" you have a belief in?

If you can't provide an answer in a form other than a baseless opinion, why would you think that your answer would not be just a guess or conjecture based on naught but hope? In other words, "wishfull thinking."

Your bible doesn't define "it" except as a vague notion or "opinion."

I'm not asking for proof of this "god thing." Lets get that straight.

Before I ask for proof of its existence, It has to be "defined" as being something other than a metaphysical, abstract concept.

Are you and your "logical left brain" up for the challenge?

Or will you, unlike your precious jesus, when challenged, turn your back and walk away?

You are both mistaken on three points. Firstly, I am not an atheist, but rather a former Christian who has come to realize that many things about the Bible and teachings about the doctrines of Christianity in general don't make much sense.

Thirdly, the phrase you two are discussing actually refers to no kind of pain, but is generally accepted to be a reference on Jesus' part to the 22nd Psalm ("my god, my god, why have you forsaken me...") which was, supposedly, an early prophecy concerning the crucifixion. So... the moral of this story is: don't assume that just because a person disagrees with your particular faith doesn't mean they are not interested in genuine diligence in it.

I never assumed you were an atheist, If I had I would have not answered, I thought you were truly searching for answers and therefore, wanted to help. And yes, jesus cried out because of the seperation from God.

Sorry this is for cagsil, ooh, struck a nerve I guess. You do not irritate me, I feel sorry for you. And I answered you because you so rudely interrupted a comment for me, goodness can't you read. I am very sorry that you must resort to name calling because your logic is no match for my faith. And you can only speak for yourself, so stick to that. Your figures suggest"some form" of faith, and your wide road to hell is the most traveled. I truly feel sorry for your ignorance in this forum, maybe you shouldn't visit forums of faith since you have none. Thanks so much for a great conversation

Struck a nerve? Not at all.You feel sorry for me? And, you know what, that actually makes me sad. But, I don't expect you to understand.Interrupted a comment for you? But it was addressed to my post, like your post I am replying to is addressed to someone else. Maybe you should learn how to USE the forums. Just a thought.Name calling? What name did I call you that wasn't your name?But, you fail to realize that you also claim to speak for a god? Or did you miss that?Apparently, if you're a believer it is, considering it is the most traveled road. My ignorance? Talk about a stupid statement. It's a public forum and I am a member, therefore, if you don't like it too bad. I can come and go as I choose.Interesting end. I guess it wasn't much of a conversation, considering it was one sided, as is most conversations with religious folks.

Perhaps he did say it over and over, keeping it under his breath in order not to disgrace himself. Finally the pain became too great and the disgrace faded into the background along with everything else but the pain. That sort of thing is common under long and intense suffering such as crucifixion.

Whoops! My apologies! I thought I edited to my post to include a final sentence, but apparently I hit the wrong button. Anyway:

Neither you nor I were there to verify this, but it seems more reasonable than thinking he could ignore the pain of his physical body while concentrating on the fact that God had left him alone for a few hours.

No, I have never been crucified, but I have suffered great pain, very nearly to the point of unconsciousness. Unable to speak coherently I could only groan. At no time was I concerned that God had forsaken me; pain was my whole world as the blackness closed in.

But Jesus was also a man. He may have been a God as well, but he wore human flesh and (if the stories are true) wore that flesh in order to be human. Without that his sacrifice was nothing at all; merely a moment of waiting in boredom until the flesh died. Neither you nor I would accept that.

Yes, he was a man, but he was God's son. When he was tempted by satan in the desert, no man could resist satan this way, for this long. Jesus was sinless even though he lived as a man. He was a perfect man, the only one.

I would point out that whether Jesus was perfect or not, sinless or not, or even God's son or not, his sacrifice of his life and what he went through is of value ONLY if he had the same feelings (both physical and emotional) as man. Otherwise it was no sacrifice at all; nothing but a show for the rubes; a farce like the "magic" of ancient shamans.

But we have drifted rather far from the original discussion of pain in Hell. At least we both agree that there is no torture; that any pain is of the emotional kind and indeed of the very kind I have experience all my life. I have no fear of it.

cagsil, you think your intelligent but you show your ignorance with every word. The "post" had my name on it, but I guess you missed that, no surprise there. The conversation remark was sarcastic, guess you missed that as well(big surprise). And of course you have the freedom to spread your lies all you wish, just know that nobody who belongs to the lord will ever believe your slanderous words to be anything more than just that. I will now say good night as I am finished with this silly game, I will not be speaking with you but if you feel the need to waste more breath, be my guest:)

You're a really funny lady.No I didn't miss that. Which is WHY my comment to Bibowen was as it was stated. Next time try to read.No, it wasn't missed. Hence, my reply. Duh!Oh, so now you are resorting to name calling, by telling me I am spreading lies. How nice of you. If you had taken that tact to begin with, then this discussion wouldn't have taken place in the first place. Please do learn your place in this world, because it's obvious you do not know.

OK, so here is some support for the doctrine of reference to Psalm 22.Firstly, nowhere in any of the accounts of Jesus' crucifixion does it ever mention that "God turned his back on Jesus and left him." It does, however, say that Jesus spoke the words "Eli eli lama sabachthani" which means "My god, my god, why have you forsaken me." Many assume this to imply that Jesus thought (and, by virtue of his presumable connection to God, knew for a fact) that God had actually forsaken him.

Unfortunately for those people, the book of Hebrews explicitly states that God "will never leave you nor forsake you." Therefore, it cannot be as is popularly assumed. Take the alternate doctrine that Jesus was, in fact, quoting the 22nd Psalm - which contains many references to the ordeal through which he was enduring. Some of these references follow:

"But I [am] a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people""All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying He trusted on the LORD [that] he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him. " "I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. ""My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death. For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. ""They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture."

It is true that God will never leave us nor forsake us.Jesus is a different situation during the cross. Notice that jesus said, "my GOD, my GOD... this is the only time that jesus called the father God and indeed, God had withdrawn himself from jesus because Jesus was about to have the sins of the world put upon him. This is the part jesus strained about so earnestly in the garden of gethsemane prior to his betrayal be judas. So yes God left Jesus because it was necessary to do just that.But in reference to God never leaving nor forsaking His people.. this is true. Many church fathers (ot) went through tough ordeals and situations, but God came through with all his promises then and he will for us now.But jesus is a different situation while on the cross.

Crikey Moses, you guys talk a load of nonsense. You do know what "forsake" means - right?

And let me get this straight - god will never leave you, except he did leave jesus and that was a special occasion and sin vanished from the world when he did, except for us non-believers and pretend Christians who call themselves catholics who are going to burn for the eternal sin of not believing or believing it wrong which is not forsaking you? Despite the fact that there is no sin in the world now? And hasn't been since some one was nailed to a piece of wood (maybe) and then all the evidence vanished in a puff of smoke and no one wrote anything he said for hundreds of years.

ah geez, another context ignorant monkey.simply put.when this world is over and the whole thing is done with, then God will abandon the; context ignorant monkeys and the whiners and the failed religionists and those who rant and rave and other committers of iniquity into the lake of fire for destruction, because listening to the bulldust of atheists and really stupid people, forever, does not appeal to God at all.understand that?

The differences of theology is based upon:a) peoples acceptance of what they are told: Some do not question the authority of the church and so listen and parrot, right or wrong they are happy.b) amount of study time: Some people have families, work long hours. yknow we sleep 1/3 of our lives, work another 1/3 that leaves 1/3 for everything else.c) pursuits of study: Some have not studied certain topics at all.d) openess to revelation: Some people study Hell for example and they come to a conclusion that is different than what they have been told, but they are closed minded to the revelation and dismiss it as a bad interpretation on their part and go back to thinking like they were toldd) pressures from the christian community: If a person comes up with a new slant on, oh say the garden of eden, or they don't believe in Satan, they can receive a lot of flack and attack from the christian community. Indeed anyone with new ideas and conclusions on old matters better be prepared to back it up!There's a few reasons

This is not a poor reflection upon our creator. It is a choice by His creation. Ezekiel 33:11 It gives God NO PLEASURE to destroy the wicked. No we cannot work for our own salvation. Those who seek but will not be able are those who think no one can see what is happening inside.

Our thoughts and feelings are energy. They will live on. If we are unrepentant inwardly but act differently outwardly this will be revealed when our souls are laid bare. When the secrets of our hearts are revealed.

We have been given free will. It is not God's choice that you should suffer eternally. It is yours.

Why the everlasting punishment? God created plenty of peaceful critters; was mankind truly so bad that we all actually -deserve- to be tortured forever? Even the courts of men don't make provision for such gratuitous retribution.

Because energy cannot be created or destroyed. God IS. When Moses asked Him what His name was God replied with, "I AM." Science confirms that energy cannot be destroyed. When God breathed life into the dust it became a living soul. God spoke everything into existence. When we are done with this life if you choose to be rebellious within yourself......You will be rebellious in that life. Thought and feelings are instant reactions in that life. God will not allow chaos to reign. He seeks peace with all His creation and has given a way for eternal life, but you must intentionally seek it.

Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

You see, when ya "pass," this god thing cradles ya in his , omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent "Arnie" type arms, peers intently into your fearful eyes, puckers up, leans forward and kisses you softly and caringly on your sweating forhead, he then leans back, and again, gazes meaningly and purposely into your questioning eyes...and in a booming powerful voice that causes the environment to quake and rumble, he ANNOUNCES his LOVE for you thusly: :I LOVE YOU!!!........YOU HEDONISTIC,TREACHEROUS, SINFUL, WORTHLESS LITTLE DEFICATION FROM THE ANUS OF A CAMEL!"

His voice echoes mightily thru the fiery halls of "hades" as he lovingly tosses you into its fiery abysses where you wail and cry in painful agony for eternity!

Imangine Qwark if you were the creator of this universe. Assuming you are perfect, you would want everything to go by certain rules in order to keep order. Now in your universe there are those who defy you no matter what you do. What would you do?

If I were that "perfect god" and I wanted to created human beings in my image, that's exactly what I'da done.

I'da created perfection!

Being "perfect" myself, why would I want my creations to be anything but perfect?

I'd be living a "perfect" life, so I'd create a perfect life for them. Anything else would be below me and being the "perfect," omniscient, ommipotent and omnipresent god that I'd be, the possibility of ME creating imperfection would be unthinkable, below my dignity and reputation...oh no! Imperfection?...IMPOSSIBLE!

So, preacher, the god that you refer to would be an imperfect god thing which created we humans in its imperfect image....couldn't be anything else.

Ya gotta think up harder questions for me to answer, that was no challenge.

QwarkVery funny, but what you have created are robots not co-creators as God wants. If He wanted robots that is exactly what He would have done. What He wants is an intelligent helper who agrees with Him because He is right, not because He has made you so that you have no choice but to do right.

Well its true. God did not want an ant farm. He wanted something more interactive than an ant farm. God could not have had anything else than an ant farm if he had not given them choices.Its like your dog.. You don't wanna just walk around him while he has fun you want to play in that fun... but what if your dog wanted to bite you all the time? and he'd start tearin up the furniture.

For God so Loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that who so ever believeth in him shall not perish but have ever lasting life John 3:16- This is how much God loves you, it is your choice to love him or not, freewill.

Too many, madam bear. And we all know that fear leads to anger, anger to hate, and hate... to the dark side. Too bad I can't make myself believe that Yoda's teachings are the ultimate truth either. That would be a sensible world.

Fear causes us to change bad habits. Fear can be good. The fear of getting into trouble with your parents. How many of you as parents use some type of fear to keep your children from hurting themselves?Here is the unique thing about fear as punishment. Years later your son or daughter comes to you and says, "Mom, you were right, I am sorry."1 John 4:18 reads There is no fear in love. Perfect love casts out fear, because fear is torment. He that fears is not made perfect in love.

This very idea used to justify the traditional idea of hell to me, since it was mankind who (supposedly) chose to go there by omission of faith and repentance. But, this only works if you also assume that God's hands are somewhat tied in the matter - as though he really had no other alternative but to doom all the unrepentant and unworthy to eternal suffering. It seems to me that any being that was not actually evil (doesn't even have to be a particularly "good" being, just simply not sadistic) would desire to find some other alternative that didn't require the brutal sacrifice of its own offspring and the infliction of endless agony upon the dissenters. Even humans don't have to resort to those measures for our criminals, and we aren't even omnipotent OR all-loving.That's why the Christian teaching concerning God and hell was very doubt-seeding in me when I really thought about it for a while. But, I am hoping that maybe somebody could put it to rest so that we may move on to other contradictions in ideas that I am hung up on. It's not that I think without a doubt that Christianity is "wrong," but rather it's more that I am trying to give Christianity the benefit of the doubt.

God's hands are only tied in that He gave us free will. Resorting to the extremes is God's only course of action when free will is involved. There are two verses that come to mind in this matter. Both have to be accepted as they are. Either we accept we are responsible or we do not.

James 3:17 The wisdom from above is first pure then peacable, gentle and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. God has given us free will and made us responsible for our actions. It is not hypocracy, therefore, if He allows us to choose and to reap the benefits of our decisions. Mostly because He is there at all times and ready to give advice and help, IF WE LISTEN.

Romans 9:20 O man, who are you that speaks against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, why have you made me this way?

It comes down to this; God wants all to seek Him out, to find out who He is, to come to peace rather than destruction. It must be done in this life. We are reffered to as living stones. How will you choose to be made?

God does not cause people to choose the wrong path, he gave his son for all to be able to be saved, atonement for their sin, there is no greater love. I do understand what you are saying. I would do anything to protect my children from suffering any pain, even heartbreak, but they make their own choices and suffer consequences in which I have no way to protect them; from themselves.

qwark, This is the example I like to use. If you had the power to "make" someone love you, would you feel loved? God could operate everything like a game of checkers, but instead the pieces get to decide in which direction they should move. God begs us to love him, he gave his son; the only perfect human, who was tortured for the sins of all. For all, even those who question his very existence. He only wants your love, your belief, your faith. If you let him in he will change you, not your circumstances, not this world or the fate of this world, but you.

He DID do something about it. Like DDDDAAAAHHH.Like, THIS, MAYBE, just MAYBE???

But you are the cause of all the circular arguments! You have all the information you need to know about God, Jesus, salvation, suffering, love, eternity etc etc etc. . .. BUT refuse to accept any of it. It's all opinion, and triteness to you. They call that wilful blindnes/ignorance.

tammybarnette, let me ask a question which I think may be illuminating for us both. Who determines the wages of sin? We all know that the price is Death. But why is that? And why is the only solution to cast those who do, for various reasons, choose to go their own way into a place of relentless agony?

Wouldn't it be much more merciful, even assuming that Death is the necessary outcome, to simply extinguish the soul and thereby prohibit its enjoyment of paradise? To me, the accepted idea about hell is reminiscent of a man with a house infested by rats. Okay, so the rats have got to go. But instead of trapping them humanely, or even just outright poisoning them, the man captures all of them and sticks them in a roaster - forever - knowing that they won't ever die of it, but will just be in horrific pain everlasting.

Math, there is only good if there is evil; there is only up if there is down. God created a paradise but because of mankind that changed. I imagine this broke God's heart. I have tried everything humanley possible to teach my children to do right and I have suffered great heartache for their bad decisions, I can only imagine how God must have felt. God wants us to choose to love him. It is beyond me as to why anyone wouldn't, but I am seeing many do not.

I like your idea about the extinquished soul, but tis not the case and we all know the consequences of our action or inaction. As I have said before, my belief is the eternal pain is not physical burning, it's seperation from the Father, and that is a choice.

Trish, I understand what you are saying completely, But God does give us the choice. He does not say he wants us to choose Hell, He wants us to choose life, it is in our complete control.

I love my children so much, and I love mankind, but as an imperfect human being I would never sacrifice my children for the world to be saved, but God did do this for us, paid our sins in full, all we have to do is choose to love him, it's that easy, He made it that easy for us because we are imperfect sinners who can not go a single day without sinning, that is how much He loves us all.

You seem to have missed the whole point(s). (There are two)1; God did not create hell for His children. It was for a guy with horns (not really, but that's how many perceive him). So ,NO child has ever got to go there.2; Even loving, caring parents in this world cannot prevent (some) children becoming murderers, drug dealers, etc, or to commit suicide. God has given people a way out. Being in this forum will baltantly awaken you to the fact that many WILL not take up the option to escape the inevitable.

We idiots are here hoping to wake a few up, but, so far with little success.Which group has the better motive? Which group has the stronger determination?

yet your all-powerful, all-knowing god managed to create humans, set them up to fail, all along knowing they would, and would end up sending them all to hell (blaming it on them for sinning). Clearly god has no power over this satan/devil if so many souls get disposed of. Why bother making a bunch of humans to send to hell if you knew this would happen?

The only thing inevitable that you can't escape is that you die.Any life after, heaven or hell is not inevitable.

how do you figure he set them up to fail? If God had used a literal tree of knowledge of good and evil, would he not have put in the far corner and surrounded it by thick bush? Why would he allow a possessed snake to have dialogue slandering Him? Why wasn't the tree of life in the center of the garden? Where was that?You are arguing a point you don't even believe in and perhaps you are doing this just out of habit. The garden experience is not what you think. Move on and get on with it.

1. Ok, well, for one, I do not believe in hell, or Satan, so I do not believe that God made hell.

2. Believers invented hell and inhabited it with Satan and anyone who did not agree with their beliefs ~ on the basis that this is what God wants ~ ie. Believers think that they have the right to be in Heaven, but that doubters do not.

They believe that God would create us all, as we are, with brains to think and to doubt, etc, but that, though he loves us all, he would send the doubters and disbelievers into eternal agony and torment!

What kind of loving father would do that!?What kind of 'good Christian mind' would believe that?!

Remember, we are not talking about 'murderers, drug dealers, etc,' ~ they can repent at the last minute and get intio heaven ~ we are talking about kind, decent people, who happen to see that lack of logic in (certain aspects of) Christianity. Do they really deserve to burn, or rot, in eternal damnation?!

It is not about that, as far as I am concerned. It is about considering the evidence and drawing conclusions. A forum like this is a place to discuss those conclusions, because it is an interesting subject. That's all

Believers do not believe they deserve heaven, Believers know that none of us deserve heaven or forgiveness or mercy. God did not set us up to fail. He created us in his image and we failed. However, because He loves us so much He made a way, Jesus Christ, for us to be forgiven and wiped clean of our sins. This eternal burning is seperation from the Father, not physical pain, emotional heart wrenching awareness. We are all here together with all of the same information in order to make our choices, freewill, it is our option.

Heaven is wonderful, No pain, No tears, all things working together, loving together, paradise. Heaven is that place that all of you seem to be saying this world should be. The place of eternal love, No death, No suffering. None of us deserve this paradise as we are sinners, But the loving Father has made a way for all to come.

You know, you should seriously speak for yourself. By speaking for people who you do not know, leads people to think that you are delusional. Just because YOU are a sinner, doesn't make everyone else a sinner as well.

Last time I checked, your religion says that Jesus died for the sinners of the world. Therefore, all are saved. There are no sinners, unless YOU have sinned and are admitting to doing so. If so, then YOU ask for forgiveness. You don't have a right to claim other people are sinners, when in fact you don't actually know.

Cags we are all sinners, period, everyday we all sin, the only perfect sinless human was Jesus who gave his perfect sinless life for all sinners to be saved. I do ask forgiveness daily! I get angry in traffic for instance and may say something unkind about the car in front of me, holding me up, so I pray for forgiveness. Jesus is the way to salvation but all are not saved, it is a choice.

Prove I have sinned. I have done nothing wrong. I have pointed out that you obviously don't understand what you are saying. To tell me that I am a sinner, is borderline psychosis, considering you don't know me. Secondly, doesn't your religion teach you NOT to judge? If that's the case, then why are you judging ALL? Then stop sinning.Did you say it to yourself or did you say it to the other people and they actually HEARD you say it? If the latter is the case, then yes you have actually sinned, per your definition(beliefs), but if not, then you've actually done nothing wrong.What part of my previous post did you not understand about Jesus saving all people already?

I know she is Christian, that doesn't make my statement any more wrong. Judgment comes based on actions and nothing more. Having a thought, but not acting on that thought, cannot be wrong. But, thank you for your input.

for god so gave his son that WHOMSOEVER BELIEVETH on him should not perish but have eternal life.There are no blanket promises in the bible, everything has its conditions and prerequisites so does john 3:16. There is a process called salvation which one has to enter into before it becomes their experience.Sin is not really Gods biggest problem. I am pretty sure i will never commit adultery, i could care less what others have, I do not steal, etc.. but God also wants ourself off the throne of ourselves. People who walk around with self leading their lives instead of God leading their lives, have sinned already because "for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God".

Emily, thank you for trying to get them to understand, they refuse and we can't help them. Those with ears will hear, those with eyes will see.

Beelzedad, I am not an angry person in need of anger management, I am a truly kind and loving person who sins like everyone else being that I am Human.

Cags, All Human beings are sinners, period, have a circular word fest with someone who would enjoy such a boring conversation. Myself and others are only here to help, your choice to believe or not, your choice to accept Christ or not, Your choice to choose life or death, all yours for the choosing:)

Ahh, but in heaven, I would have to believe the same garbage that you believe. And I would be in the presence of your mentally unstable, bloodthirsty, spoiled, childish God. Just thinking about having to worship a being like that...for just one minute, is too much to take.....there is no way I could fathom eternity.

quark, just wanted to let you know I haven't slipped out the back, I went to bed, I have a family and a life outside of the pages. I would love to have a deeper discussion, however at this time I am doing things with my children(life). However, when I have time I will gladly have a discussion with you unless you are like cags, only interested in hearing yourself speak and trying to condemn others with opinions outside of your own. If a real discussion is intended, I am more than open.

you first have to define this "god thing" in other than opinion based on naught but "hope."

If you can't do that, there is "nothing" to discuss.

There are, worlddwide, almost 40,000 differing protestant sects, intepretations, cults et al, all claiming to have the correct interpretations of the "bible" and your god thing...and the numbers are increasing everyday.

Of course the vatican says it has the correct answers.

Your bible doesn't define this god in a form other than an opinion. If you can do it, we'll chat.

I guess my humor is lost on you, my asking you to define the word definition is as absurd as you asking me to define God. I can share thoughts, but this is not what you intend, I'm guessing, so I guess we have nothing to discuss. I will leave you with this thought, we shall all see one day:) Thanks

Tammy:English is my native language.Check an English dectionary for a definition of the word "define." Once ya've got it, we'll begin there IF ya can "define this "god thing" in a form other than baseless opinion.If ya can do that, then, I'll ask for proof of "its" existence in a form other than it being a metaphysical, abstract concept created by man.If ya can do it, by golly we'll chat.Pls, oh pls don't quote scripture! Qwark

quark, The definition of God is also in your english speaking dictionary, I thought you wanted to have a philisophical/ religious discussion as has been pointed out to me to be the label of this forum.

Pls explain how one can have a "philisophical/ religious discussion," if one side can't define what the "discussion" going is going to be about and the other side is waiting for a definition of the subject the other can't provide?

Your opinions are based on what? Scientific fact? I could say the dictionaries definition of the word definition is just an opinion based on nothing. We are just doing a circular dance and I am bored. So back to my fun life, have a great day:)

qwark, if I have misinterpreted your tone, which happens in this form of conversation, Please look up- www.doesgodexist.org- There you can find scientific proof, if that is what you are truly searching for; I am a christian and I do truly want for all to know my God and his love, but arguing silly points is not going to help. I hope you have a great day , it's far too beautiful outside to waste more time on this computer

tammybarnette, I took a look at your link and began reading the first publication, A Practical Man's Proof of God. While I admire the author's dedication and reasoning, he (or she) doesn't really provide much in the way of "proof" to God's existence. In fact, the running theme of most of the proofs is along the cosmologists-are-wrong-about-this-therefore-the-Bible-is-right line. Unfortunately, even the counterpoints to ideas about the beginnings of the universe are not denied by scientists, and I'm certain that a good investigation into the debate amongst the scientific community would reveal that many of these very points have already been brought up by other scientists - the truth is that the origins of the universe are necessarily calculated from known and observable values of phenomena today (since we can't very well go back in time and look for ourselves), and the calculations do yield bizarre results that are not fully understood yet. However, in no way does this truth imply that the Biblical account of the beginnings of the universe (and therefore, the biblical account of God) is true. After all, in that case, what is to say that the ancient Mayan account of the beginnings of the universe aren't the truth?

I don't wish to argue silly points, either. I would really prefer to come to mutual understanding. Unfortunately, in order to do this, it is necessary to point out ideas that don't make sense to me. How are we to come to mutual understanding if I do not clarify what I don't understand and why it doesn't make sense to me? I think these are agreeable terms on which to conduct a reasonable discussion.

qwark, just not going to do your research for you, Take your lazy fingers over to the google page I suggested. As you know, in a court case it is the askers job to provide proof, so why don't you show some proof of his non-existence......(is that crickets I hear) Enjoy your day, Goodbye

It is apparent that believers, in this God thing, just don't have the patience to define it, so they put the onus upon you to go find it from some place else...but when you go to that some place else, you still have no answers at all...yet they become indignant.

I'd have to dedicate a yr or 2 to composing a book about 1000 pages long to do that.

But thanks for asking...much appreciated.

Now lets see, without writing a book, lets get back to you offering a well thought out, well reasoned, logical response to my question about providing a definition of this god thing you'd like to speak of, in a form other than a baseless opinion. OK?

Then you can offer, for clarification and potential conversion, your proof of what you have defined, factually about this "god thing."

Once we've got that behind us, by golly, we can sit over a cuppa coffee and "jar" (no, to jar would be to clash, we don't wanna do that) so we can "chat" to our hearts content! :

Qwark, interesting that you believe it would take you, a man, a book inwhich to define yourself, well, there is a book that will define God for you, written over 2000 years ago. Read this book and get back with me, we will have a nice chat and a cup of joe

qwark, You want me to define something without ant resources in which to do so. I can give you my testimony, I can give you theology, I can give you opinion, description, characteristics too many to count. But, if you have read the bible you know all of this, except my own testimony and belief. God is love, that is it in a nut shell, God is love

Here are some of the characteristics you mention from the god of "love"

Genesis

1. And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and ... offer him there for a burnt offering. -- 22:2

2. And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. -- 22:10

3. And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him. -- 38:7

4. And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also. -- 38:10 Exodus

5. If thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.--4:23

6. For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast.--12:12

7. At midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.--12:29

8. The LORD slew all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both the firstborn of man, and the firstborn of beast.--13:15

9. The LORD is a man of war.--15:3

10. He that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.--21:15

11. Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.--22:18

12. He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.--Ex22.20:

13. And my wrath shall wax hot, and I will kill you with the sword; and your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless.--22:24

14. Then shalt thou kill the ram, and take of his blood, and put it upon the tip of the right ear of Aaron, and upon the tip of the right ear of his sons, and upon the thumb of their right hand, and upon the great toe of their right foot, and sprinkle the blood upon the altar round about. -- 29:20

15. Ye shall keep the sabbath ... every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death.--31:14

16. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side ... and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.--32:27

17. And the LORD plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made.--32:35 Leviticus

18. And Moses took of the blood of it, and put it upon the tip of Aaron's right ear, and upon the thumb of his right hand, and upon the great toe of his right foot.--8:24, 14:14, 14:17, 14:25

19. And Nadab and Abihu ... offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not. And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.--10:1-2

20. For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death.--20:9

21. And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death.--20:12

22. If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.--20:13

23. If a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they.--20:14

24. If a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.--20:15

25. If a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.--20:16

26. A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.--20:27

27. And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.--21:9

28. Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp; and let all that heard him lay their hands upon his head, and let all the congregation stone him.--24:14

29. He that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him.--24:16

30. And Moses spake to the children of Israel, that they should bring forth him that had cursed out of the camp, and stone him with stones. And the children of Israel did as the LORD commanded Moses.--24:23

31. I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.--26:16

32. I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children.--26:22 Numbers

33. And when the people complained, it displeased the LORD: and the LORD heard it; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among them, and consumed them .--11:1

34. And while the flesh was yet between their teeth, ere it was chewed, the wrath of the LORD was kindled against the people, and the LORD smote the people with a very great plague.--11:33

35. And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day ... And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones.--15:32-36

36. And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.--16:35

37. And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.--21:6

38. Behold, the people shall rise up as a great lion, and lift up himself as a young lion: he shall not lie down until he eat of the prey, and drink the blood of the slain.--23:24

39. And the LORD said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel.--25:4

40. And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.--31:15-19 Deuteronomy

41. And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain.--2:34

42. And we utterly destroyed them, ... utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city.--3:6

44. And thou shalt consume all the people which the LORD thy God shall deliver thee; thine eye shall have no pity upon them.--7:16

45. If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die. -- 13:6-10

46. Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.--13:15

47. And the man that ... will not hearken unto the priest ... that man shall die.--17:12

48. And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: But the women ... shalt thou take unto thyself.--20:13-14

49. But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth.--20:16-17

50. But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die.--22:20-21

51. If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die.--22:22

52. If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city.--22:23-24

53. When two men strive together on with another, and the wife of the one ... putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets: Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her.--25:11-12

54. The LORD shall make the pestilence cleave unto thee, until he have consumed thee from off the land.--28:21

55. The LORD shall smite thee with a consumption, and with a fever, and with an inflammation, and with an extreme burning, and with the sword, and with blasting, and with mildew; and they shall pursue thee until thou perish.--28:22

56. Thy carcase shall be meat unto all fowls of the air, and unto the beasts of the earth, and no man shall fray them away.--28:26

57. The LORD will smite thee with the botch of Egypt, and with the emerods, and with the scab, and with the itch, whereof thou canst not be healed.--28:27

58. The LORD shall smite thee with madness, and blindness, and astonishment of heart.--28:28

59. Thy sons and thy daughters shall be given unto another people, and thine eyes shall look, and fail with longing for them all the day long.--28:32

60. The LORD shall smite thee in the knees, and in the legs, with a sore botch that cannot be healed, from the sole of thy foot unto the top of thy head.--28:35

61. And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters.--28:53

62. So that he will not give to any of them of the flesh of his children whom he shall eat.--28:55

63. The tender and delicate woman among you, which would not adventure to set the sole of her foot upon the ground for delicateness and tenderness, her eye shall be evil toward the husband of her bosom, and toward her son, and toward her daughter, and toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them.--28:56-57

64. I will heap mischiefs upon them. I will spend mine arrows upon them.--32:23

65. They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.--32:24

66. The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.--32:25

67. If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me. I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh.--32:41-42 Joshua

68. And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.-- 6:21

69. He that is taken with the accursed thing shall be burnt with fire, he and all that he hath.-- 7:15

70. The LORD shall trouble thee this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones.-- 7:25

71. And the LORD discomfited them before Israel, and slew them with a great slaughter at Gibeon, and chased them along the way.-- 10:10

72. The LORD cast down great stones from heaven upon them ... and they died.-- 10:11

73. And afterward smote them, and slew them, and hanged them on five trees.-- 10:26

74. So smote all the country ... he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded.-- 10:40

75. The LORD God of Israel fought for Israel.-- 10:42 Judges

76. But Adonibezek fled; and they pursued after him, and caught him, and cut off his thumbs and his great toes.-- 1:6

77. Then Jael Heber's wife took a nail of the tent, and took an hammer in her hand, and went softly unto him, and smote the nail into his temples, and fastened it into the ground: for he was fast asleep and weary. So he died.-- 4:21

78. Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be .... She put her hand to the nail, and her right hand to the workmen's hammer; and with the hammer she smote Sisera, she smote off his head, when she had pierced and stricken through his temples.-- 5:24-26

79. And the Spirit of the LORD came upon him, and he ... slew thirty men.-- 14:19

80. And Samson went and caught three hundred foxes, and took firebrands, and turned tail to tail, and put a firebrand in the midst between two tails. And when he had set the brands on fire, he let them go.-- 15:4-5

81. And when he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, together with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel.-- 19:29 1 Samuel

82. And he smote the men of Bethshemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the LORD, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men: and the people lamented, because the LORD had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter.--6:19

83. Thus saith the LORD of hosts ... go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.--1Sam.15:2-3

84. And Saul said, Thus shall ye say to David, The king desireth not any dowry, but an hundred foreskins of the Philistines, to be avenged of the king's enemies.--18:25

85. Wherefore David arose and went, he and his men, and slew of the Philistines two hundred men; and David brought their foreskins, and they gave them in full tale to the king, that he might be the king's son in law. And Saul gave him Michal his daughter to wife.--18:27 2 Samuel

86. David commanded his young men, and they slew them, and cut off their hands and their feet, and hanged them up over the pool in Hebron.--4:12

87. And David said on that day, Whosoever getteth up to the gutter, and smiteth the Jebusites, and the lame and the blind that are hated of David's soul, he shall be chief and captain.--5:8

88. Because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.... And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died.--12:14-15

89. And he brought forth the people that were therein, and put them under saws, and under harrows of iron, and under axes of iron, and made them pass through the brick-kiln: and thus did he unto all the cities of the children of Ammon.--12:31

90. Let seven men of his sons be delivered unto us, and we will hang them up unto the LORD in Gibeah of Saul, whom the Lord did choose.--21:6 1 Kings

91. He smote all the house of Jeroboam; he left not to Jeroboam any that breathed, until he had destroyed him, according unto the saying of the LORD.--15:29

92. Him that dieth of Baasha in the city shall the dogs eat; and him that dieth of his in the fields shall the fowls of the air eat.--16:4

93. He slew all the house of Baasha: he left him not one that pisseth against a wall ... according to the word of the LORD.--16:11-12

94. He laid the foundation thereof in Abiram his firstborn, and set up the gates thereof in his youngest son Segub, according to the word of the LORD.--16:34

95. Thus saith the LORD, In the place where dogs licked the blood of Naboth shall dogs lick thy blood, even thine.--21:19 2 Kings

96. If I be a man of God, let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And the fire of God came down from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.--1:12

97. As he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.--2:23-24

99. Elisha prayed unto the LORD, and said, Smite this people, I pray thee, with blindness. And he smote them with blindness according to the word of Elisha.--6:18

100. This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him to day, and we will eat my son tomorrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him--6:28-29

101. For the whole house of Ahab shall perish: and I will cut off from Ahab him that pisseth against the wall--9:8

102. They took the king's sons, and slew seventy persons, and put their heads in baskets, and sent him them to Jezreel.--10:7

103. And when he came to Samaria, he slew all that remained unto Ahab in Samaria, till he had destroyed him, according to the saying of the LORD--10:17

104. And the LORD smote the king, so that he was a leper unto the day of his death.--15:5

105. Therefore he smote it; and all the women therein that were with child he ripped up.--15:16

106. The LORD sent lions among them, which slew some of them.--17:25

107. The angel of the LORD went out, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians an hundred fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses.--19:35 1 Chronicles

108. Uzza put forth his hand to hold the ark; for the oxen stumbled. And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzza, and he smote him, because he put his hand to the ark: and there he died before God.--13:9-10

109. And he brought out the people that were in it, and cut them with saws, and with harrows of iron, and with axes. Even so dealt David with all the cities of the children of Ammon.--20:3

110. So the LORD sent pestilence upon Israel: and there fell of Israel seventy thousand men.--21:14 2 Chronicles

111. And king Solomon offered a sacrifice of twenty and two thousand oxen, and an hundred and twenty thousand sheep.--7:5

112. Whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.--15:13

113. Behold, with a great plague will the LORD smite thy people, and thy children, and thy wives, and all thy goods. And thou shalt have great sickness by disease of thy bowels, until thy bowels fall out.--21:14

114. And after all this the LORD smote him in his bowels with an incurable disease.--21:18

115. Behold, he was leprous in his forehead ... because the LORD had smitten him.--26:20

116. Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof, even all the curses that are written in the book.--34:24

117. The wrath of the LORD arose against his people, till there was no remedy. He ... had no compassion upon young man or maiden, old man, or him that stooped for age: he gave them all into his hand.--36:16-17 Esther

118. Then said Esther, If it please the king ... let Haman's ten sons be hanged upon the gallows. And the king commanded it so to be done ... and they hanged Haman's ten sons--9:13 Psalms

119. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces.-- 2:9

120. He teacheth my hands to war.-- 18:34

121. Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth.-- 58:6

122. The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.-- 58:10

123. That thy foot may be dipped in the blood of thine enemies, and the tongue of thy dogs in the same.-- 68:23

124. Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not; and make their loins continually to shake.-- 69:23

125. Let his children be continually vagabonds, and beg: let them seek their bread also out of their desolate places.-- 109:10

126. To him that smote Egypt in their firstborn: for his mercy endureth for ever.-- 136:10

128. The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil: so do stripes the inward parts of the belly.--20:30

129. Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.--Pr:22:15

130. Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.--23:13-14

131. The eye that mocketh at his father, and despiseth to obey his mother, the ravens of the valley shall pick it out, and the young eagles shall eat it.--30:17 Isaiah

132. Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts is the land darkened, and the people shall be as the fuel of the fire: no man shall spare his brother.--9:19

133. And he shall snatch on the right hand, and be hungry; and he shall eat on the left hand, and they shall not be satisfied: they shall eat every man the flesh of his own arm.--9:20

134. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.--13:16

135. Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children.--13:18

136. Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers.--14:21

137. He hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.--34:2-3

138. For my sword shall be bathed in heaven.--34:5

139. The sword of the LORD is filled with blood.--34:6

140. Then the angel of the LORD went forth, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians a hundred and fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses.--37:36

141. And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine.--49:26

142. I have trodden the winepress alone ... for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.--63:3

143. For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.--66:16

144. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.--66:24 Jeremiah

145. They shall not be gathered, nor be buried; they shall be for dung upon the face of the earth.--8:2-3

146. For, behold, I will send serpents, cockatrices, among you, which will not be charmed, and they shall bite you, saith the LORD.--8:17

147. Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon them, which they shall not be able to escape; and though they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them.--11:11

148. Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, I will punish them: the young men shall die by the sword; their sons and their daughters shall die by famine.--11:22

149. The sword of the LORD shall devour from the one end of the land even to the other end of the land: no flesh shall have peace.--12:12

150. Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land ... with drunkenness. And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.--13:13-14

151. When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them: but I will consume them by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence.--14:12

152. And the people to whom they prophesy shall be cast out in the streets of Jerusalem because of the famine and the sword; and they shall have none to bury them, them, their wives, nor their sons, nor their daughters: for I will pour their wickedness upon them.--14:16

153. And I will appoint over them four kinds, saith the LORD: the sword to slay, and the dogs to tear, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the earth, to devour and destroy.--15:3

154. They shall die of grievous deaths; they shall not be lamented; neither shall they be buried; but they shall be as dung upon the face of the earth: and they shall be consumed by the sword, and by famine; and their carcases shall be meat for the fowls of heaven, and for the beasts of the earth.--16:4

155. Deliver up their children to the famine, and pour out their blood by the force of the sword; and let their wives be bereaved of their children, and be widows; and let their men be put to death; let their young men be slain by the sword in battle.--18:21

156. I will cause them to fall by the sword before their enemies, and by the hands of them that seek their lives: and their carcases will I give to be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth.--19:7

157. And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend.--19:9

158. And I will smite the inhabitants of this city, both man and beast: they shall die of a great pestilence.--21:6

159. And I will send the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, among them, till they be consumed from off the land.--24:10

160. Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Drink ye, and be drunken, and spue, and fall, and rise no more, because of the sword which I will send among you.--25:27

161. And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.--25:33

162. Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will send upon them the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, and will make them like vile figs, that cannot be eaten, they are so evil.--29:17

163. They shall die by the sword, by the famine, and by the pestilence: and none of them shall remain or escape from the evil that I will bring upon them.--42:17

164. Know certainly that ye shall die by the sword, by the famine, and by the pestilence, in the place whither ye desire to go and to sojourn.--42:22

165. I will bring evil upon all flesh, saith the LORD.--45:5

166. For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood.--46:10

167. Cursed be he that keepeth back his sword from blood.--48:10

168. With thee also will I break in pieces man and woman; and with thee will I break in pieces old and young; and with thee will I break in pieces the young man and the maid.--51:22 Lamentations

170. The young and the old lie on the ground in the streets: my virgins and my young men are fallen by the sword; thou hast slain them in the day of thine anger; thou hast killed, and not pitied.--2:21

171. The hands of the pitiful women have sodden their own children: they were their meat.--4:10 Ezekiel

172. The fathers shall eat the sons in the midst of thee, and the sons shall eat their fathers.-- 5:10

173. Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them.-- 8:18

174. Let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark.-- 9:5-6

175. Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I am against thee, and will draw forth my sword out of his sheath, and will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked.-- 21:3

176. And I will set my jealousy against thee, and they shall deal furiously with thee: they shall take away thy nose and thine ears; and thy remnant shall fall by the sword: they shall take thy sons and thy daughters; and thy residue shall be devoured by the fire.-- 23:25

177. Thou shalt even drink it and suck it out, and thou shalt break the sherds thereof, and pluck off thine own breasts: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.-- 23:34

178. And the company shall stone them with stones, and dispatch them with their swords; they shall slay their sons and their daughters.-- 23:47

179. Heap on wood, kindle the fire, consume the flesh, and spice it well, and let the bones be burned.-- 24:10

180. And her daughters which are in the field shall be slain by the sword; and they shall know that I am the LORD.-- 26:6

181. For I will send into her pestilence, and blood into her streets ... and they shall know that I am the LORD.-- 28:23

182. And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.-- 38:21

183. Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth.-- 39:18

185. Yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.-- 9:16

186. I will meet them as a bear that is bereaved of her whelps, and will rend the caul of their heart, and there will I devour them like a lion: the wild beast shall tear them.-- 13:8

187. Their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.-- 13:16 Amos

188. I have sent among you the pestilence ... your young men have I slain with the sword, ... and I have made the stink of your camps to come up unto your nostrils.--4:10

189. I saw the LORD standing upon the altar: and he said ... I will slay the last of them with the sword.--9:1

190. Though they be hid from my sight in the bottom of the sea, thence will I command the serpent, and he shall bite them.--9:3

191. And though they go into captivity before their enemies, thence will I command the sword, and it shall slay them: and I will set mine eyes upon them for evil, and not for good.--9:4 Habakkuk

192. God came from Teman .... He had horns coming out of his hand .... Before him went the pestilence, and burning coals went forth at his feet.--3:3-5 Zephaniah

193. I will utterly consume all things from off the land, saith the LORD. I will consume man and beast; I will consume the fowls of the heaven, and the fishes of the sea.--1:2-3

194. And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, ... and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.--1:17

195. All the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.--3:8 Zechariah

196. I will not feed you: that that dieth, let it die; and that that is to be cut off, let it be cut off; and let the rest eat every one the flesh of another.--11:9

197. And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.--13:3

198. Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.--14:12 Matthew

199. If thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee .... And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.--5:29-30

200. And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.--8:32

201. God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.--15:4

202. If thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee .... And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.--18:8-9

203. Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.--22:12-13

204. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?--23:33 Mark

205. And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea.-- 5:13

206. For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death.-- 7:10

207. And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched. Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.-- 9:43-44

208. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched..-- 9:45-46

209. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.-- 9:47-48

210. He that believeth not shall be damned.-- 16:16 Luke

211. Then went the devils out of the man, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the lake, and were choked.--8:33

212. Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell.--12:5

213. But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.--19:27 John

214. He that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.--3:36

215. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.--15:6 Acts

216. Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost.--5:9-10 2 Thessaloinans

217. The Lord Jesus ... In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God ... Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction.--1:7-9

218. God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned.--2:11-12 Hebrews

219. Almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.--9:22 Revelation

220. I will kill her children with death.--2:23

221. And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another.--6:4

222. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion.--9:5

223. And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.--9:6

224. And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.--9:10

225. The four angels were loosed to slay the third part of men.--9:15

226. The people ... shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.--11:9-10

227. And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever.--14:11

228. The great winepress of the wrath of God ... was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles.--14:19-20

229. The second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.--16:3

230. Thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.--16:6

231. The fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain.--16:10

232. And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.--17:16

233. He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.--19:13

234. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, ... he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.--19:15

235. I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men.--19:17-18

236. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.--19:21

237. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.--20:15

238. The fearful, and unbelieving ... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.--21:8

The God of the Old Testament was indeed a savage and brutal avenger. Yet all those who refuse to believe in his laws are destined for the fires of hell. I fail to see the difference between this God's ideology and that of the devil's. I realise I shall be smitten for saying such a thing.

Which is why the religionists spend their lives trying to move the story to the new testament..... unless they want to abuse a non-believer, in which case the old and new testaments are magically united on the point of abuse apparently.

Thanks a lot, earnestshub - now I have to roll through 238 verses that conflict the idea that the Bible is a book that teaches peace and that God is essentially Love embodied before I can see the bottom of this thread.

As if they don't have enough to deal with trying to resolve this simple hell issue. I still haven't seen a really good defense of that, have you?

Although, as a few have pointed out, there is the chance that mainstream Christianity has actually misinterpreted its own sacred text, and there was never the intent in the original writing to imply that hell is a place of everlasting agony of torture. It's a possibility, but I think that the verse where Jesus says "and they will throw them into the furnace of fire, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" is pretty clear about that.

I knew I was opening a can of worms with this forum, but I was hoping that it wouldn't get out of hand. Sorry tammybarnette, not singling you out, just figured that this was the post to reply to so that everyone in this little offshoot thread would see it.

Cags, not being condescending, stating a fact of the conversation we shared. If you would like to quit attacking and have a discussion( which means sharing your thoughts and not merely repeating the opposite of others original thought) Then, I will discuss with anyone. I am open minded, intelligent, kind and truly interseted in facts you may have to offer. If more arguing is what you would like, speak with someone who would enjoy that conversation:)

The idea of hell developed from the physical reality of Gehenna, located outside ancient Jerusalem in the location known as the valley of the son of Hinnom. This was where apostate Israelites and followers of Ba'al sacrificed their children by throwing them into the fire.

Only later, did this real place come to represent the destination of the wicked. The King James version of the bible translates Sheol/Hades, the Greek nether-world, which was a neutral home of the dead and Gehenna by using the same Anglo-Saxon word - hell, thus confusing the two ideas. Thus Jesus is described in some versions of the bible as descending into hell for three days before his resurrection. This originally referred to Hades, not the fiery hell of later Christianity.

I really don't want to quote your 238 references for sake of saving space on the page, but in response to it, I say;At least you have a good grasp on the fate of the wicked, the hateful, the murderers, the unbelieving et-all. I'm sure that everyone here will be without excuse on the day of Judgement. Noe of you will be able to say "but Lord, we didn't know!!!"

Show me a word he wrote, show me some proof that he ever was, explain the billions of unanswered prayers, explain the hate and fear, explain how this isn't all generated by that fear, explain why a sane entity would have "inspired" such hate or needed to.

As for the rest of your requests, well, it kinda proves what I said, you don't understand. (It actually requirers revelation, as opposed to intellect, so it's not for a select few, but ALL.)I can accept that, because the Gospel (always was) is FOOLISHNESS to those who are...what does it say again...um perishing!

But that concept should not be scary, as all atheists will perish. I mean, they will become worm food and fertiliser.

so do christians - if you get buried in the ground, you get eaten by worms & bacteria. If you get cremated, you get burned to ash. If you are in the sea, you get eaten by sharks & fish - we all get recycled.

You act like he was a UFO. Because we were a bloody, stupid creation. Did Buddha exist? School, baby! School. Learn the lessons or repeat the grade. Same message. If you didn't like the son, wait till you find out about Melchesidek. The mystery is convoluted. It is like being in the maze on Crete. There is a maze on Crete. Hmmm. Lotta folks lived back then, and most you have never heard of. Do you doubt their existence, too? How long have you harbored these feelings of hate and fear. It all comes from inside of you.

Fractal Reality. Something is beyond our space/time. String theory and membrane theory backs this up. Black holes and the possibility of wormholes also tend to back this up. All theoretical. Fractal reality is differrent. Basic repeating patterns. No accidents exist in mathematics. It speaks to perfection. You seem to believe in the perfect accident.

Benoit Mandelbrot is rolling over in his grave - it is my opinion that the term "fractal" is a bit abused in this usage. I presume, though, that by "fractal reality" you mean the counter-idea to Hume's supposition that there is the logical possibility for the laws of physics in the future to be totally incongruous to the laws of physics today? In that case, (and first of all, I am making a huge leap of an assumption in thinking that you are arguing for the existence of the loving God in question, because the point of that post was really quite vague) I fail to see how fractal reality suggests the existence of an entity that would fit the typical description of God. Of course there is observable consistency in the world as we observe it through time, but I wouldn't take this as the logical hypothesis leading to a conclusion of "something out there." I dunno - man, you really got me off-topic there though!

I read your link. There's plenty written for the other side as well to support the idea that the gospels were written at much earlier dates. For example, Paul quotes the Gospel of Luke in his first letter to Timothy (1 Tim. 5:18).

So what genre of literature would you put the gospels under...historical records?realistic, narrative fiction?something else?

from several places I've read, the gospels have been dated decades after these events were supposed to have taken place. Written by anonymous authors, probably church clergy (most people of that time couldn't read & write). What's realistic fiction? When it makes reference to a few historical places? Like harry potter? In that case, yes.

There's a small problem with the gospels being realistic, narrative fiction. Prior to them, there are no other examples of this genre of literature, an after them, there are no other examples until hundreds of years later. Do you think they came up with a new genre of literature?

I'm not really sure what anyone could find "realistic" about a guy raising someone from the dead, walking on water, multiplying loaves and fish, and then finally ascending to the sky after returning from the death which he forecast beforehand.

C.S. Lewis responded to this speculation in his essay 'Modern Theology and Biblical Criticism'. I recommend you read it yourself so I don't have to start quoting from it. Besides, we're already way off topic.

Well, I suppose that anyone who supposedly saw Jesus would technically be eyewitnesses - trouble is, how do we know that an "eyewitness" is not also a fictional character, as Nick Carraway is to the Great Gatsby?

Read all the way down and my heart is pulled in a couple different directions... First I will state that I am a believer...a child of God, giving the gift of Faith to accept Jesus into my heart and accept transformation.

To the unbelievers: I love you, thank-you for your comments, though I do not agree with them, I accept you for who you are and can only offer a ear to hear your word.

As to Love and Hell co-existing... From the bible we know that God is Love... and love defined is the "Union of all things"So what is the other side of the coin,... "The separation of one from all Things" also known as pride... We have a choice because he Loves us so much.

God will punish all those who deserve it with condemnation to hell. Hitler will not be in heaven, niether will Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao, or too many other Leftists and their cohorts to name. Along with, I am sure, many who could be called Christians and right wingers.

The catholic bishops tweaked the bible to make it match their unscriptural doctrines. Since they kept the bible from the masses - until Luther - they made certain (fear) doctrines to keep the people in the church. After, Luther the bible was now to be available to the masses and the catholic church got right on that and starting to re-write the bible in accordance to what they were already teaching, a tweak here and there, and harmless 'grave' became some underworld demonic place for bad souls to be tormented forever, but this is not what Gods word says.Here is how i interpret this:There is no hell as a demonic abode for the dead spirits of bad men and there is no torment forever.First off, Plato invented the immortal soul. The soul is not immortal, the tree of life gives immortality as stated in: Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever: Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

The 'second death' referred to in revelations means just that: A second death, the first being of the body and ending their term in this plane, the second death being their ending after being judged unworthy to enter eternal life with God. They will be snuffed out, made to perish, finished, non existent.God is not profited by the eternal screamings, forever of people in a place somewhere. There is no reserved space that God uses to store unwanted souls. There is no part of space that God is not in.God will snuff out like a candle flame all those unworthy. Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. We might also ask, if revelations is such a book depicted by allegory and metaphors and humanly understandable visions of such a heavenly place, then is the lake of fire, really an actual lake of literal fire? Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

This is how i marry God and Love. Gods love is all over the bible and most prominent in the cross of Christ. How can a God sacrifice his Son. Love for the many outweighs the love of the one.food for thought

Of course parents hope that their children will love them. But they cannot, as you say, make them have those feelings.Neither can anyone force themselves to love someone.And neither can anyone force themselves to believe something!

I do not know whether or not God exists ~ or even what God might be. Over the years I have thought about this a lot. I cannot force myself to believe.Many Christians seem to think that this is actually possible, but it is not!Could you force yourself to believe in fairies, for example? ~ No. That is not how our minds work.

Think about this example:

Just imagine that you had a parent, who loved you very much, and wanted you to give your love in return, and, also, to believe in fairies.

If you did not, or could not, believe in those fairies, then that parent would become vengeful and would force you to endure eternal torture.

Would that be the behaviour of a caring, loving parent?Would that parent deserve to be loved and adored?

Is it right, to punish someone so drastically, simply because there is not enough evidence of something for people to believe in it?

There is no point talking about faith ~ one cannot make oneself have faith ~ not in fairies and not in anything else!

You do not have to make yourself believe, you have to be open and honest with yourself and pray, He will answer you! HE WILL! In absolute perfect timing you will just know. It takes a very open heart and mind, we are to come to him as a child; children have the most open hearts and minds. Trish, I promise you this from the bottom of my soul, if you seek him you will find him.

Emily R, I guess there are many things in life that don't make sense but are true and real nonetheless. A bumblebee should not be able to fly, but it can. I have thought my relationship with Christ through completely and it makes perfect sense to me. When I was going through a divorce from my first marriage(in which I had two small children) I was scared, alone, and had no help. Yet my God worked everything out for me. My budget made no sense, the peanuts I made that had to be divided up everywhere did not add up, but worked everytime(a lot like the bible account of the fish and loaves of bread) All I had to do was pray and fear would leave me. I have tons of such personal examples.

To me I can not for the life of me understand how anyone could believein random particles combusting to make an entire universe and people(so crazy and far fetched to me)Or how anyone could believe we come from monkeys (for goodness sake, I mean that is laughable to me) I am not at all trying to be disrespectful to anyones beliefs, I guess I am just surprised when people tell me my Lord makes no sense but can believe is such random ideals.

My thoughts here have truly been to enlighten. To help anyone here who would like to know God. It is my duty as a christian person to share my beliefs, my testimony, and try to show people the way to christ so they may be saved. I am not here to judge anyone, that job is that of the father and I do not believe in judgeing people(I stand up for gay rights and I am pro choice) I do not believe it is anyones right to judge or persecute another human being. I have tried to maitain civility with people calling me names(such as delusional) I have tried to pray for everyone in this forum to have an undeniable experience with my lord. God Bless

So, an insect that has wings makes no sense to fly, yet a guy who came back from the dead makes perfect sense?

It is easy to see you really have no idea what you're talking about, which is why it is laughable. Random particles did not undergo combustion to make our universe nor did we come from monkeys. Obviously, you do not understand those concepts and have embraced fantasy and myth as a result.

No, it is not your duty to save anyone as that is disrespectful and selfish. You are not enlightening anyone but instead are showing tremendous amount of ignorance of the world around us.

And, yet you feel it is your duty to judge those who do not share your beliefs and you have to save them.

beelz, I am not judging, I am trying to explain but if you do not care for my explanation it is your right. I am not selfish, I can not save anyone, only God can, I can share my stories and some may decide to learn for themselves and go to to Jesus and be saved. I show no such ignorance, actually I find you to be quite ignorant for not being able to undestand what I am plainly saying and instead trying to mix my words to mean something different, reminds me of political sound bytes and Satan the deceiver, so you believe whatever you wish and one day we shall all see who was ignorant

By the way beelz, my explanation of the big bang and evolution were intended to show how misinterpretations cause chaos and such it is with God's word. Good grief, some of you are really ignorant to sarcasm, interesting since you drip with it but don't understand when someone is using it against you and your ideals.

There are no gods doing anything here, the actions are entirely of your doing, and you are doing them only to serve yourself in order to gain favor with your imaginary god.

Sharing your stories is no big deal, but to do so in order to evangelize your religion is another story altogether.

Yes, I understand you would equate me to satan for not swallowing your irrational beliefs and then threaten me with your version of eternal damnation. You are no different than many such fundamental religionists.

Beelz, I understand your hostility, some people get that way when they are proven wrong, and people do not come back from the dead,duh, Christ did because He was God's son. As far as divorce, I have already admitted to being a sinner, so what was your point? I am trying to spread "religion," I am trying to spread the word. So now, as jesus would do, I shall shake the dust of this town(forum) from my shoes and pray that some will seek him. Enjoy your day

Really? Is that because the bible told you so? Aesop's Fables are full of talking animals, do you believe animals can talk because it's written down in a book?

The point is being a hypocrite, telling us how to live our lives while according to your religion, yet you do exactly the opposite.

Yes, I know, you are doing so for your own self-gratification while showing no respect for anyone. We are all free to read the bible ourselves, we don't need you to tell us especially when you can't even follow it yourself.

Beelzedad, you are such a shabby debater. The point of debate isn't to make the other person angry and disorientated. I would feel horrible communicating with people the way you do. Try using that nice human trait called empathy, from time to time. It would make your own arguments have so much more gravitas.

Any empathy would be a start. And yes, we should always have empathy. By treating everyone with the same contempt and dismissing a point of view as stupid doesn't win arguments, it just spreads a bad feeling. If bad feeling is what you want then carry on, you're doing a good job.

If there is a God, then God bless you too. I'm not saying you haven't found solace in your faith; I'm saying the dogma is insanity. Hell does not line up. You can't claim a loving God, who hides from everything and anyone, who is willing to condemn billions to either a fiery torment or a dark and lonely separation of him in eternity; simply for taking the world at face value.

Emily R, God would not choose Hell for any of us, he leaves that choice for us to make. He is not hiding, he is everywhere, in everything. One of my children(she is 16) has the hardest time taking responsibility for her actions and understanding consequences. She blames everything, including circumstances, for her bad choices. I believe it is truly that simple. We all have the same knowledge before us and the same choices, some people choose to live off the government instead of working, some choose to live under a bridge(I am referring to those who can help themselves of course) Some choose to murder, steal, hate, etc. Life is a series of choices and actions or inaction and each has a consequence. Christianity follows these same basic truths.

I truly appreciate your discussion, so many here are rude and negative. Thank you for not twisting my words and for truly trying to understand my beliefs although they are not yours

I have no desire to twist anyone's words. This should be a discussion forum, not a debate site; but that's an opinion. You know what they say about those.

I agree, we all have choices to make. And we make our own beds. I simply refuse to believe that the god as defined by Christianity is real. There is too much evidence to the contrary. It would be a sad thing, to find out that type of deity was what we were stuck with.

Out of all the gods ever imagined by men; something that callous and cruel toward the lion's share of humanity would be difficult to accept. There is no love in the Christian philosophy, when you think it through. Hell is not Love. It is hatred for any opposing view.

Emile R, I do understand your point of you. I do not believe in persecuting anyone for what they believe. I am an activist of human rights. I believe all have the right to choose. As a christian, however, I just sincerely want for people to know and understand my Lord. All things beautiful and good are of the lord, including humanity. I find the cycle of life to be harsh, the food chain, I can not watch the nat geo programs my husband so adores because of this, I don't like watching battles and death, it hurts my heart. I do not like war, but tis neccessary as well. There are many sad and ugly things in our imperfect world, but these such things are not because of our Father, they are despite him, which is why I love Him so much, He is the only unchangeable, reliable truth. Hell is the opposite of God, and God is love.

Beelzedad, you are so ignorant it's actually tragic. I have met inner-city school kids with a better understanding of the world than you. Stop pretending to know anything about religion, or culture and go back to reading your computer manual.

indeed? One of your five favorite words again? I just don't like to see people being picked on. I didn't like how you used a persons divorce against them. Below the belt. We don't know what she's been through.

No one is picking on anyone else, where do you get that ridiculous notion?

Does it matter what any Christian has "been through" with divorce? Their biggest problem is how they're going to explain themselves in front of their gods. They have sinned and will be sent to hell for knowingly and willingly sinning.

Do you mean "point of view"? It's not important to the content of your post, and I honestly don't think less of you for the mistake but - some people will take something like that and turn it against you in an ad hominem attack on your credibility. So, since I don't wish for anybody to be discredited falsely based on fallacious grounds, I am simply pointing it out for your future information.

Then, there are no choices to make at all in your religion. You either obey and worship your god or be sent to hell.

And yet, there isn't a shred of evidence to suggest that at all because nature shows everything science has found within it, and gods is not of them.

Of course, your children are being indoctrinated into your religion hence they are shifting the burden of responsibility onto your god, just like all believers do. She is unable to think for herself as a result.

Your religion causes conflict and wars, it destroys the minds of children and they grow up believing rather than thinking. There isn't anything positive about it all.

Beelz, you keep quoting my religion, I don't believe I have shared a religion with you, I am a christian, that is not a religion and bears no doctrine. Science and scientist are of God. My children have been taught to be free thinkers and have chose God to be their savior. My relationship with my Lord has not caused any such war, only apparently, debate. I could list positive things till the cows come home, but why would I waste precious time on doing this for you when you would only continue to be rude and hateful. I am curious, what do you believe if anything?

It doesn't sound like they are thinkers at all, they have simply been indoctrinated into YOUR religion. Their minds have never developed and most likely never will until they break that indoctrination.

Hilarious, the bible is full of hateful verses, acts of violence, oppression and murder, things you or I would never do. One can list far more of these negative attributes from the bible than any positive. Yet, you'll embrace it as the most important book in the world.

But of course, you'll cherry pick the bible and ignore those.

I think and understand, hence no need to believe in invisible super friends.

Beelz, again with "religion" what religion am I? Again with doctrine, what doctrine am I? I have read my Bible, I know of the wars and sacrifice, I know how horribly the apostles were treated for their beliefs and willingness to share such. It is easy to see how true the Bible is, just look around in this world today, watch history continue to repeat itself. Read Revelations and turn on the news. Wake up Beelz, God is not invisible to those who choose to see.

Seems you have ignored all the other violence that had nothing to do with apostles.

I can see no such thing, from where do you get that ridiculous notion?

Put your bible down, turn off the tv and pick up another book, there are many more out there from which you could learn a great deal, like bees, for example. Did you know that that the round flat wings of dragonflies would never work on an aircraft or a bird, yet dragonflies can maneuver quite easily with them.

Are you saying you see gods because you choose to see gods?

What other invisible things can you see because you choose to see them?

Beelz, you have a poor of a sense of humor as you have of any intelligent conversation skills. I have read many books. I love to read. You prove a point for me with the dragonfly, God's creations defy science(as the bee) I wish you the best sir, good day

Yet, that isn't evident in your posts at all, quite the contrary, in fact.

That is a entirely false, neither the bee or the dragonfly defy science. That would show you know very little about science.

Your god however, does in fact defy science as does a great deal more in the bible. Clearly, your posts are only meant to spread false information and deceive others in order to support your irrational beliefs. Terrible behavior.

@ Dave Mathews..... UH, OK dude. Chill out a little. There is no such thing as Hell. That's something that a-holes invented 2,000 years ago just to scare the crap out of people. God will forgive all. Any God who wouldn't.... is no God at all.

I had always had the belief since childhood hell is self made. Each individual must live with their choices. Hell, in itself is not so much 'torture' as self torture. The guilt, pain and anguish that is felt by the heart who still has the capacity of remorse. Though I do not know the entirety of the Bible, I find myself considering the following.Does a loving father punish his children for their wrongdoings? Does he expect them to learn from their mistakes. Is hell truly eternal or is there a second chance of redemption. This I don't know, and hopefully never will. Empathy, love, forgiveness and remorse are tools of healing. However, I refer back to my bible. Luke 17:3. Take heed to yourselves. If thy brother trespass against the, rebuke him, and if he repent forgive him.The bible teaches forgiveness, and removal from those who cause harm. Negativity only fuels their fire.

You make a good point, it's a mystery to me, as many things are. I was told ...hmm that God gives a person tons of opportunities to be with him and that final rejection of His love..merits them hell----whatever that hell is........?

Isn't Hell the absence of Love. I wonder, we should really ask those who have gone to hell to verify this claim first. I always understood it as the complete opposite to Love. Love conquers all things. Now the question that needs to be asked is, what is Love?

Love is not a feeling it is an action. 1 Corinthians 13:4-8Love is patient, kind, does not envy, or boast, is not proud.It is not rude, self-seeking, it is not easily angered and keeps no record of wrong.It does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truthIt always protects, trusts, hopes and perseveres.

Now befoe someone says Love keeps no record of wrongs let me make something clear. Love also must be reciprocating. Matthew 6:15 If you cannot forgive neither will He forgive.

Does anything at all, that exists on this earth, not exist in an environment that meets certain conditions? Some things demand a greater number of conditions being meet that others, Such as a cactus or mushroom, they require very little, and too much of any good thing will kill them.

Love is kinda like a handshake. It requires acceptance and reciprocation. It may not need much, but a minimal amount is required for either to exist. I don’t think anything exists that hasn’t had its own requirements meet.

???Mothers(most) continue to love their children, even if they don't return the favor. The love of this god thing is supposed to be greater than that of a mother-perfect love, and you say its just a barter!!!!

God is not the one who puts a condition on love, we are. By our own standards we put a condition on His love. If I may use another religions phrase it is karma. What you sow so shall you reap. Again it is self-willed, free will.When we decide there is someone we do not like, for whatever reason and we choose to talk about that person, shun that person whatever punishment we dole out is putting a barrier between us and our creator because He does love everyone. I will repeat it. It is not God that puts a condition on love it is us. This love must extend further than the people we find easy to love, such as our grandchildren, as He does. A brother for adversity, if you will. Love is not conditional in this case BUT it is reciprocating. What you sow so shall you reap.

"I have wiped out many nations, devastating their fortress walls and towers. Their cities are now deserted; their streets are in silent ruin. There are no survivors to even tell what happened. I thought, 'Surely they will have reverence for me now! Surely they will listen to my warnings, so I won't need to strike again.' But no; however much I punish them, they continue their evil practices from dawn till dusk and dusk till dawn." So now the LORD says: "Be patient; the time is coming soon when I will stand up and accuse these evil nations. For it is my decision to gather together the kingdoms of the earth and pour out my fiercest anger and fury on them. All the earth will be devoured by the fire of my jealousy. "On that day I will purify the lips of all people, so that everyone will be able to worship the LORD together. My scattered people who live beyond the rivers of Ethiopia will come to present their offerings. (Zephaniah 3:6-10 NLT)

Religious "love" is not only conditional but the result of psychotic threats.

Most non-believers ask if there is a God, why is there so much suffering in the world? This is unconditional love at work. God sends the rain down on the just and the unjust. The scripture you give for an argument is an argument for unconditional love. Over and over these people were warned to stop hurting other people. This included killing their children by sacrifice to gods that cannot even speak. You call this action conditional, but if someone were to hurt your innocent family - you would no doubt want justice. Those scripture are for unrepentant evil doers God is showing His unconditional love to by giving them yet another warning. Crime must be paid for. Call it conditional if you want. I would venture you would do the same if your family was the brunt of some evil thing.

You seem to be a religiously programmed robotic entity that has no ability for rational thought.

IF you believe that your imaginary "god thing" is OMNISCIENT, "it" knew beforehand, at the time of creation and before, that "its" "beloved" creations would do these horrid things!

Knowing THAT, beforehand, pls explain why a loving father who is not a perverted psychopath, would create "children" whom he knew were going to "misbehave" and that he'd have to commit murder and mayem later upon their imperfect bodies.

If this biblical "god thing" was/is OMNIPOTENT & OMNISCIENT, as you claim "it" to be. IF "it" was/is a truly "loving 'god thing," knowing fullwell,before hand, that "it'd" have to destroy what "it" had created, what "Sane" loving father who is "OMNIPOTENT & OMNISCIENT" would create children he knew he would have to eventually murder?

There is no doubt in MY mind that you are a programmed follower.You are certainly not a "self actuated," learned, thinker.

My stomach is sore from laughing so hard at the shallowness of your "programmed" remark....but then the definition of "cult" is religion. You seem to be an inspired member.

QwarkApparently you have a short memory. It was you who suggested the robotic civilization, not I. Yes in a created world with free will you are going to have vessels made for destruction and some for honor. God took just as much care in creating those for destruction as He did those for honor. This is what the Bible says. However God gives us a way out of destruction by "purging ourselves" by belief in the name of Jesus and the cleasing of the reading of His Word. Once again He gives us the choice.

I truly am enjoying this conversation! Perhaps you will read the Bible and become better at arguing your point.

It becomes more evident with every thing you write that you function based 100% on preconceived, biblically programmed info! Doubtlessly, you are a "bot!"

I spent 2 1/2 yrs in seminary and was a bible scholar in my early 20's prepping for the pulpit. I finally realized that my curiosity and ability to search and learn exceeded that of my teachers by light yrs! I became a 'pain-in-the-ass" with my questions and not accepting their answers which were based totally upon "faith." They asked me to leave. What a relief and what a rewarding experience life has been since then!

What you must do is open your mind to "education!"

Your bible rests, opened, on the end of your short nose, blocking 'reality" from your peripheral vision.

Your "cultish" responses speak volumes to me in ref. to how profoundly your programming has frustrated your ability and desire to study, think without reservation and LEARN!

I've been where you are! I have worn the "mocassins" of the fundamentalist.

Curiosity, research and study, led me to remove the shackles of religious ignorance and freed me to explore new adventures in an exciting and enlightening world of "reality!"

"Knowing" what I know, from actual experience, makes me sad that there still exist those of you who labor under the primitive, frustrating fallacy of there being loving,supernatural, omnipotent, omnsicient, omnipresent supernatural divinities who would give a 1st glance at serendipitous, momentary, valueless, arrogant microbes such as us.

You didn't respond to my questions. Why not? I know why. You can't without looking even more foolish.

Punishment is a corrective measure. Do you not punish to correct behavior? If you love unconditionally then by your words every person in prison should be let out. There should not be any punishment but just a good talking to. Is that it?

what about free will? Why would God create us perfect on Earth? He choose to make us as we are so we could make our decision. Life is a test. Make choices and deal with the consiquences. If God made us perfect to begin with there would been no point of the snake at the garden of Eden, there would be no point of going to heaven or looking forward to it. God wants to reward the true children of God, not people who are just looking for a "free ride" into Heaven.

don't feel embarrassed for me, its not my choice how people do or do not take religion serious. All it takes is someone planting a seed. Do with it what they will, but every knee shall bow, every tongue shall confess,,, I will be prepared, that's what matters most to me.

On judgement day when we stand before God ,,, every knee shall bow every tongue shall confess... I will be the one embarassed for you then. Goes back to choices we make and the consiquiences that goes with them. I am not arguing anymore, you made your bed and you will lay in it, and thats a sad day.

Yep. Then you and me will go up to heaven, and eat southern fried chicken and drink sweet tea, and forget all about Qwark, who will be in unspeakable misery in everlasting unbearable torment. I can't wait for that day.

not at all, you all choose to believe what you want, go ahead, BUT Jesus said if we deny him on earth he will deny us in front of his father.. what do you expect? Some people just do not want to be helped (perfect examples of that here) and you want to bring folks down with ya (how satan works) you made your choice you will recieve punishment for it, UNLESS you change your paths... I tried to lead you all in the right paths... my job is done... hope both of you one day see the light before it is too late... good luck to you both

no I know when to stop, Jesus said, behold I stand at the door and knock... you only get so many "knocks" at that door, you choose ... you suffer... sad for you... I am not better than anyone or try to be, I just know the truth and it gets frustrating when someone who can go to Heaven chooses to not do so, eternity is a long time... Jesus said no one comes onto the father but by him... I wont respond to you again, simply because your "knocks" have run out with me, but I will pray for you both and hope one day to see you in Heaven.. that's all I can do!!

jomine ???Mothers(most) continue to love their children, even if they don't return the favor. The love of this god thing is supposed to be greater than that of a mother-perfect love, and you say its just a barter!!!!

ME I didn't say that love is turned off like a water spickett if conditions are not meet.

I didn't say that the existence of love is conditional

I am saying that the condition of your LOVE is affected by those conditions that you face each day. Those people that we do love; we love them all differently because they are all different.

The intensity in which we are allowed to deliver that love is dependant upon how it is received.

How can anyone honestly say that something is unconditional when it can be affected by conditions?

jomine ???Mothers(most) continue to love their children, even if they don't return the favor. The love of this god thing is supposed to be greater than that of a mother-perfect love, and you say its just a barter!!!!

= - -- == --

ME I didn't say that love is truned off like a water spickett if conditions are not meet.

I didn't say that the existance of love is conditional

I am saying that the condition of your LOVE is afected by those conditions that you face each day. Those people that we do love; we love them all differently because they are all diferent.

The intensity in which we are allowed to deliver that love is dependant upon how it is received.

How can anyone honestly say that something is uncontitional when it can be affected by conditions?

The love I give is not conditional. I don't put conditions on the love I give to my grandchildren.= - -- ==

ME But the manner in which you get to deliver that LOVE is very conditional upon the way in which it is received. The intensity in which you shower that love is dependant upon conditions. = - = - = -

earnestshubI don't give love with the condition that they worship me either.

"You can be loved if" is not love, and you cannot be loved unless you believe ....... is conditional.

= - == -- =

And I do not place any conditions upon love that I want to give either; Just because I do not put them there does not mean that they do not exist. If something can be affected by outside forces or conditions in any way, it is at least some what conditional whether we want it to be or not.

You are right; "THEY" can not cause me to stop loving them, but they can greatly affect the way in which I am alllowed to express it.

= -- == --

earnestshub Very conditional when it is accompanied by threats as in religious tomes.

God is perfect love and oneness. Whereas, the physical world is made up of all that God is not. Those who cling to their physical entities are in hell because they have not accepted themslves as an integral part of creation.

We know that there are some Christians that do not believe in hell while they believe in heaven. We also know that some people believe that the soul will keep coming back to earth. There are many things to believe out there so I do not see the reason why people should not respect one another by the simply truth that it is what we perceived as truth that we follow. However, I understand that those that claim to know the truth say that they want to save souls. I have come to wonder if some Christians did include hell into the picture. Then it means that people can live and die and sleep forever with any punishment. If that is the case then what is the need for repentance since no punishment waits you no matter how good or bad you live? Those that belief in re-carnation claim that we suffer in each live for our past sins or mistakes. So who knows who is right? Is it better to belief that people are not punished because God is love or to tell people that punishment awaits them so that they change? Again what is the path avoid the hell? Christians will claim that Jesus is the only way while others will disagree. Does it mean that people never spoke or reached God before Jesus came? Does it mean that hell was empty until Jesus came? How will those that lived and died before the coming of Jesus be judged? How can a God people claim never changes then change is ways? This is a matter of what people what you to belief but I personally think that what matters is not who you worship but what you do and how you relate to others. If it was who we worship then God will be blamed for not making all the tribes on earth to worship him from the beginning because it is said not is impossible for him. Yet the world is the same even after the Jews killed God or his son. which one ? as the Christians claim

Related Discussions

According to received Church wisdom, all of humanity deserves to be sent to hell? Why? What have we as individuals done that's so wrong that eternity of torture or annihilation is the reward?I'm sure the average Hubber here has never murdered a child, sold crack to street kids, committed genocide,...

Is There Any Reason That I Would Want To Go To Heaven?...Is there any reason other than...the other choice is Hell? I have no desire whatsoever to go to such a place that is described in the Bible as Heaven. To me it is just the lesser of two evils. I couldn't imagine worshiping...

The God Paradox - also known as the Omnipotence paradox which addresses the question whether the existence of an omnipotent entity is logically possible.Paradox of the stone (one version): "Could God create a stone so heavy that even HE could not lift it?" If so, then it seems that God...

Are eternal Heaven and eternal Hell not the human concepts only ?With utmost respect to all religions and their adherents, I compel to think that if these two concepts are excluded from the religious texts, the people find all the religions on the same pedestal and a kind of reciprocity and...

For as long as religion existed, there has always been the threat of torture in the afterlife (unless you subscribe to *insert religion here* and convert today!), but when you actually think about it and apply a single brain cell to the idea, it doesn't make any kind of sense at all. Given that I...

Are you afraid of going to Hell?I'm afraid. I'm worried I should be religious to avoid Hell, but I don't believe God would send me to Hell because I don't know what to believe.So are you afraid of going to Hell for all eternity?

This website uses cookies

As a user in the EEA, your approval is needed on a few things. To provide a better website experience, hubpages.com uses cookies (and other similar technologies) and may collect, process, and share personal data. Please choose which areas of our service you consent to our doing so.

This is used to display charts and graphs on articles and the author center. (Privacy Policy)

Google AdSense Host API

This service allows you to sign up for or associate a Google AdSense account with HubPages, so that you can earn money from ads on your articles. No data is shared unless you engage with this feature. (Privacy Policy)

This is used for a registered author who enrolls in the HubPages Earnings program and requests to be paid via PayPal. No data is shared with Paypal unless you engage with this feature. (Privacy Policy)

Facebook Login

You can use this to streamline signing up for, or signing in to your Hubpages account. No data is shared with Facebook unless you engage with this feature. (Privacy Policy)

Maven

This supports the Maven widget and search functionality. (Privacy Policy)

We may use remarketing pixels from advertising networks such as Google AdWords, Bing Ads, and Facebook in order to advertise the HubPages Service to people that have visited our sites.

Conversion Tracking Pixels

We may use conversion tracking pixels from advertising networks such as Google AdWords, Bing Ads, and Facebook in order to identify when an advertisement has successfully resulted in the desired action, such as signing up for the HubPages Service or publishing an article on the HubPages Service.

Statistics

Author Google Analytics

This is used to provide traffic data and reports to the authors of articles on the HubPages Service. (Privacy Policy)

Comscore

ComScore is a media measurement and analytics company providing marketing data and analytics to enterprises, media and advertising agencies, and publishers. Non-consent will result in ComScore only processing obfuscated personal data. (Privacy Policy)

Amazon Tracking Pixel

Some articles display amazon products as part of the Amazon Affiliate program, this pixel provides traffic statistics for those products (Privacy Policy)