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Also on the Shleip paper, I'm pretty sure he doesn't address control because he didn't actually study living individuals. I'm pretty sure he simply studied samples of fascial tissue under a microscope. As such, the paper discusses how he got the tissue to contract in the lab, but that does not directly show how the process works in the body.

Oh, and one thing about that, I realize that it was not in vivo but there is much to be observed in excised tissue. For instance, Cady mentioned neurons in fascia-- maybe that was a misspeak, but that's why I piped up. And of course we aren't talking about sensory neurons (though they are HUGELY important I am sure) right now, because the question is regarding conscious control of contraction.
You don't need to a living behaving animal to address this question: if there are contractile cells in fascia, do they or do they not make synapses with neurons? Neurons aren't hard to find, so if you were to report on the presence of myofibroblasts but not nearby axon terminals, it does suggest that you didn't see them associating in your samples.
--Jonathan Wong

I don't want to get very involved in this conversation (I think people should speculate and think in all sorts of directions), but I'm not sure voluntary control of fascia and contractable fascia, etc., is necessarily the right answer to the basic question about how things work. No real research has been done on this aspect of qi (that I know about), but I know some of the effects first hand and I can postulate several other mechanism that would explain the effects. I.e., the assumption that contractible fascia is a basic answer isn't the basket I'd put all my eggs into.

I.e., the assumption that contractible fascia is a basic answer isn't the basket I'd put all my eggs into.

Mike Sigman

Thanks for the input! Actually I also don't think the fascia itself is contracting either, in martial art usage. That post by Cady suggested otherwise, which is what alarmed me.

Does anyone know of labs that are actively researching kokyu in any form?
I think it is true that we have already discovered the structures involved, and furthermore, I am pretty sure we have the techniques to directly observe them in action. But someone with interest, funding, and expertise needs to set up the project.
--Jonathan Wong

I think I understand what you are saying. For instance, one could "engage" or "activate" the fascial suit with 6-direction intent, then do the jo-trick. He would simply maintain his balanced intent, bourne through the fascia, while someone pushes the jo. Voila, no muscle needed because the strain is distributed through wide swaths of tissue.

Yeah, that's basically what I'm saying.

Quote:

Jonathan Wong wrote:

But, this "activate-once" model doesn't address the mechanism of how ki is lead by intent, except maybe at the moment of activation, correct? What I mean is, when you induce a ground-path say from your right hand your left foot, and then by chance you need one from the left shoulder to the right foot, maybe in preparation to strike with that shoulder, this is done by using intent, without moving. So, what has just happened in your body at that moment?

It is something consciously controlled at that moment, in a particular location (shoulder to foot). It's that feeling that you can feel at any given moment by "intending" to create or bear a force.

Gawd, is there a way I can keep this short? As I said, things get more complicated.

OK, remember that we're talking about a "whole-body" or global, tensegrity structure. Tensegrity structures have a couple interesting properties and behaviors.

Unlike rigid structures, the external shape of an (elastic) tensegrity structure is determined by an internal equilibrium of forces. If you change that balance of forces, the external shape will change. So when I was talking about using muscle to "guide" movement, I meant that you can use muscle to shift or re-align the internal balance, such that it forces an external change in shape (ie, movement).

Think of a bicycle wheel. If you change the spoke tension (like if you break a spoke) or if you change the length of a spoke (by screwing or unscrewing the spoke) the wheel will develop a wobble.

So here's the first possibility---in that moment when you shift your "intent", you might be shifting around various internal structures, such that the main, err... "avenue" of force is changed. I think this is what happens in the "center"/dantien/tanden. Certain internal structures are manipulated to induce general movements of expansion and condensing. But this may also happen on a smaller scale throughout the body, who knows.

The thing here is that all the muscle activity would be concentrated in the abdomen, and I can say from experience that in the beginning it's really hard to discern the subtle (internal) movement there. So it may feel like you're "using you intent" rather than moving the muscles/internal structures in the center/dantien/tanden.

A second possibility is that you may literally be "connecting" or "disconnecting" certain fascial channels. The human body is a complex structure. And it should be noted that the fascia runs through muscle---I would imagine that flexing muscle would affect the tensegrity equation somehow, though I can't say exactly how. Maybe there's ways of using muscle that "breaks" the connection?

[edit] Also, the angle of the elastic bands (in this case, the fascia) in relation to the rigid rods (bones) is important for tensegrity structures, so there might also be subtle ways of re-aligning the body that connects or disconnects. [/edit]

Let's say you're disconnecting your arm---the fascia in the arm would still be contracted, but it would be separate from the greater global tensegrity equation.

This sort of thing would probably also be really subtle, such that you would probably perceive it as "using your mind", rather than using the muscles of the body in weird ways.
_____

I could say more, but this is already pretty long. So don't think this is a complete explanation. And don't think this really explains "how" you do any of this stuff on a practical level.

2. The oft-mentioned Scheip paper (easily accessed on the "Science of Fascia" page on Timothy Walters-Kleiner's internal-aiki.com) that claims the presence of myofibroblasts in fascia did not suggest there is neural control of any such contraction. I don't think it was an accident that control of contraction was not addressed in the paper-- if it does occur, it is very likely through hormonal control, and consequently would not be able to be consciously controlled in terms of what part of the body gets a fascial contraction. Is there another paper that addresses neural (conscious?) control of fascial contraction? (you mentioned nerve cells in fascia)

Control was addressed. p. 63. Specifically hormonal control, and specifically, the most likely candidate is oxytocin and histamine with short-acting potentials (the "love" protective hormone and inflammation hormones respectively). Epinephrine, and acetylcholine (fear-stress hormones) as have no notable effect, nor does adenosine.

So here's the first possibility---in that moment when you shift your "intent", you might be shifting around various internal structures, such that the main, err... "avenue" of force is changed. I think this is what happens in the "center"/dantien/tanden. Certain internal structures are manipulated to induce general movements of expansion and condensing. But this may also happen on a smaller scale throughout the body, who knows.

Potentiating the fascial stuctures by passive means (hormonal or otherwise) does do,one thing that specifically distinguishes it from voluntary muscular contraction -- is that it pre-potentiates the action of reflex arcs, triggered by passive stretch of the tendons. The Jendrassik Maneuver reflex test most simply demonstrates this. This has also been shown to evoke involuntary stepping motions iun the lower body from upper body passive stretch potentials that are not evoked when the passive tendon stretch is not present.

Thanks Erick for catching that. I should have re-read before posting! So at least Schleip seems to agree that in terms of real-time control of movement, inherent fascial tissue contraction is barking up the wrong tree. This is in line with Timothy's model, and my model that I was favoring when I happened upon that previous post in this thread.

Quote:

Timothy Walters Kleinert wrote:

So here's the first possibility---in that moment when you shift your "intent", you might be shifting around various internal structures, such that the main, err... "avenue" of force is changed.

I think that everything you've said jives with my interpretation too. My only deal is that the original source of the fascial tension is the big area of interest to me. That's where there is divergence between my thinking and what you've said (and like you said there is so much more to say though).
But for the usage you describe, my current thinking is exactly in line with that:
If in fact you choose to establish global fascial tension, and your bones are not arranged problematically, then I would agree that you would successfully form a tensegrity structure. Then, you could tug on the tensile portion of the structure (fascia) and you would "steer" forces at will. You are suggesting that abdominal musculature (conceivably attached to fascia) would be used for this tugging (slight modification of tensions), correct?
Sounds good to me, but at a basic level, it sounds like you are talking about a specialized usage of a more general tool. I feel like you could do the same thing in a less global way (would you want too? I am not an experienced enough martial artist to address that). In other words, if you were a master of control of "that which creates fascial tension," then you could use that device to create lines of tension.. let's call them piano wires.. between any points on your body that contain this device. Know what I mean? Same equipment, but a local rather than global strategy of usage.
This is why the source of tension is of interest to me-- I think it is a piece of physiological equipment that could be used in many creative ways. Anyway I am talking theoretically about something I can't even do yet, so maybe there is no value to my musings!

Quote:

Timothy Walters Kleinert wrote:

And don't think this really explains "how" you do any of this stuff on a practical level.

True, but that certainly wasn't my intent. Personally I am interested in the status of western research regarding these things.
--Jonathan Wong

Potentiating the fascial stuctures by passive means (hormonal or otherwise) does do,one thing that specifically distinguishes it from voluntary muscular contraction -- is that it pre-potentiates the action of reflex arcs,

By "potentiating" the fascia you mean introducing tension, taking out slack so that it transmits force without much loss, yes?

So if you could introduce fascial tension voluntarily (specific time and between specific places), then conceivably you could voluntarily open and close the door to this condition wherein reflex arcs control the movement of parts of your body due to disturbances in other parts, right?
--Jonathan Wong

Wow, this thread has taken on quite a life! Jonathan, thanks for the PM "heads up."

To clarify ... the reference I made earlier to fascia was not accurately worded. Fascia has been found to contain not neural type cells, but myofribroblasts - a kind of cell similar to those found in smooth muscle tissue which give the tissue the ability to contract.

At the 1st International Fascia Research Congress held in 2007, a paper was presented on this finding, which additionally determined that the presence of these cells within fascia permit it to contract like muscle, though much more slowly (over a period of minutes to hours, depending on the circumstance).

The implication is that fascia can contract (and relax) independently, and thus act like muscle in some respects. But what would fire such movement? More recent research into the role of mental intention is starting to tie together the action of the brain in initiating nerve-firing and muscle movement (I'm trying to dig up that article, which ran, via wire services, in the popular press in late 2008, but in the meantime, here's an interesting ad for an intention-controlled myofeedback device: http://www.ihe-online.com/index.php?...product%5D=964 ). If fascia can "act like muscle," then perhaps intention similarly can fire fascia to contract and relax. Interesting to conjecture over.
.

Editing time ran out.
Just back-read the posts and realized that I'm stating just what Jonathan already referenced from Timothy's website. I referenced that same material a long while back on E-Budo as well. Guess we're all just repeating ourselves with that "oft-quoted" paper.
.

More recent research into the role of mental intention is starting to tie together the action of the brain in initiating nerve-firing and muscle movement (I'm trying to dig up that article, which ran, via wire services, in the popular press in late 2008

And, I got excited about the IMF equipment you linked to, but I read a document from that company's website that pretty much indicated that as far as they understand the mechanism, it is nothing special-- it just detects alpha motoneuron firing and triggers the muscle in response (exactly what the alpha neurons are trying to do in the first place). In other words it is using attempted movement rather than pure intention-to-move.

The firing of alpha motoneurons are the very last thing that happens before muscles contract-- they are the direct cause of contraction. This puts them downstream of everything: movement planning, anticipatory postural adjustments, and anything that might happen in response specifically to the intention to move. I guess in chinese terms these neurons would be linked intimately to Li, not Yi or Qi-- I say that because the qi lead by yi is something that happens before movement, and through training can happen without movement-- alpha firing in general cannot (unless it is very weak firing, not the kind associated with a good strong movement).

So, although the name of this therapeutic product got my hopes up, it looks like this company has not built an artificial bridge between qi and li (provided their explanation is indeed how it works).
Caveat, if in actuality, manipulation of qi is acheived by very weak alpha neuron firing (which would activate just a few deep, fascially-connected fibers), then maybe this is something interesting indeed.
--Jonathan Wong

I don't want to get very involved in this conversation (I think people should speculate and think in all sorts of directions), but I'm not sure voluntary control of fascia and contractable fascia, etc., is necessarily the right answer to the basic question about how things work. No real research has been done on this aspect of qi (that I know about), but I know some of the effects first hand and I can postulate several other mechanism that would explain the effects. I.e., the assumption that contractible fascia is a basic answer isn't the basket I'd put all my eggs into.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

There was never any implication that voluntary control of fascia is the whole or "right" answer to "how things work." But, I would not dismiss it as one factor in a complex process. That connective tissues (fascia, tendons) are not mere inert organic substances, and may be playing a role in subtle machinations we can learn to do, but which are not commonly known, is a fascinating topic of exploration and study.

Of course, any understanding we derive from such studies won't help in the least in learning how to create, harness and utilize any physical skills, but it would be pretty cool to know what's going on "inside."

Interesting discussion. I haven't read all the scientific papers but I've looked through the last several posts and I find that this coincides with some things I've been thinking about lately.

As for using fascial contraction in martial application, I'd say that's definitely barking up the wrong tree--or maybe barking down the tree when we should be barking up.

The thing is, the fascia is all rooted in the center of the body and it is activated by the nerve plexus in the abdomen, under the diaphragm. It is mostly activated involuntarily and pre-consciously. Fight-or-flight response is the classic example and in that case, the fascia can contract rapidly and powerfully but without conscious intent. So it's not much good to think of ways to "use" that contraction, but I think the real point there is to "prevent" the fight-or-flight response from kicking in automatically without our control.

Example, you're walking down a poorly-lit sidewalk when, up ahead, you see a man emerge from shadows and bushes and start walking directly toward you. The first thing you probably feel is a "flash" of shock, followed by a tension in the stomach, whole-body tingling and a feeling of weakness in the legs. The knees want to drop. All this is mediated in the abdomen in response to the nerve signals there.

If you're aware and have some practice, you can over-ride the fight-or-flight response, keep the center of gravity tall and keep the whole body relaxed. How? Breath. To the center. Which presses on the nerve plexus and "soothes" it to some degree, allowing you to avoid the full-blown drop-into-a-crouch-and-get-ready-to-rumble-or-run reaction. Then you can intentionally time an appropriate response with a relaxed body and posture.

So I'd say that learning to make the fascia contract is the wrong idea altogether and that learning to keep it from "snapping shut" is moving along the right track.

Next, as to the sensory nature of the fascia, I think that is very important as whatever is sensed in one part of the fascia is almost instantly known throughout the entire fascial system--meaning throughout the whole body. Example, you step into a tub of hot water and tingles spread quickly through your whole body. This knowledge is not spreading through the muscles because the muscles of the foot are not continuously connected to the rest of the body. They are only connected to...the fascia...which is connected to all the rest of the fascia of the body. Of course, speaking in terms of "connective" tissue, we would also have to consider the skin's being involved in this. So we would better say "the connective tissue" in general, rather than specifically "the fascia."

Anyway, if the connective tissues can bring information into the body and transmit it wholly throughout the body, what is the other side of that? What does the fascia transmit outward from the body?

My recent idea is that while the fascia/connective tissue can bring information in and through the body, what it sends "out" from the body is "intent."

So when you think to do something, the first thing that happens is that your intent travels through the connective tissues to the part of your body you "intend" to move. That's the mind.

Once the mind travels through the connective tissues, the qi flows in right behind it and actually activates the fascia/connective tissue of the whole body to assume the shape necessary to execute the "intent." And as the qi flows through the path of the intent, it distributes muscle effort precisely where and in the amounts needed to assume the necessary shape to enact the first "intent". Thus, "Mind leads the qi and qi leads the body."

To get back to "contracting" the fascia, again, I think that the first step is "open" the whole system and since fight-or-flight pretty much totally "closes" the system, it's necessary to use the breath to over-ride the fight or flight response, stand tall and loose, and be ready to "close" very powerfully at the moment it will be of most advantage, tactically.

And that's my recent thrinking on this subject.

Thanks and best to all.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

I also have not said that fascial contraction is the only factor, just that I think it's likely a big piece of a complex system. I'll lay out the case as I see it, and everyone can be their own judge.

When we're talking about the *scientific basis* for the internal movement---at least in regard to basic, martial usage---I think it comes down to one simple question: How does one stabilize the body?

In other words, what bio-mechanic is being used to hold/move the body? We all know that force is transferred through the skeleton, but how is the skeleton held in place? It's fine to say that we "use our intent", but intent doesn't hold the bones in place. There has to be some sort of bio-mechanical process at work in the body.

I've only come across a few plausible answers (excluding the idea of mystical force):

1. "Internal" and "external" use the same biomechanics, the difference is just a matter of technique.

That is, "internal" skill is just a sophisticated use of gravity, momentum, angles of force, and timing. You can believe that if you want, but it leaves a lot of stuff unexplained. Like the pseudo-spiritual sensations experienced by internal practicioners, or why most long-term martial artists (20-30+ years) never seem to be able to match the ability of the "greats" likes Ueshiba, as well as a variety of "ki tricks" (like the jo trick).

This is plausible, no doubt about it. But I have some doubts---if normal musculature is still being used, why don't we see the same amount of muscle development in top internal practitioners as we do in ring fighters, particularly in the arms?

The problem I have is that muscle is a local mover. Using normal muscle, complex movements are achieved by creating long chains of individual movements. But a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. It's fine if internal practitioners have strong legs (as many do), but if your leg muscles are out of proportion with your arms, the arms will collapse under the strain of strong leg movement, and won't be able to transfer all the force. (Yet the top internal practitioners don't seem to have a problem with that.)

3. Internal movement depends on a hyper-development of postural muscles.

This is an explanation that's been around for a while, but has a bunch of holes. I wouldn't be surprised if internal movement exercises postural muscles, but by themselves they can't explain all the ki-related phenomenon. There's also not a strong distinction between postural and "normal" muscles, so this theory doesn't really even explain how "internal" movement is different from "external" movement.

4. Fascial Tensegrity

Lastly there's the fascial tensegrity theory that I've been talking about. The tensegrity idea explains how it might be possible to have "relaxed" or "muscle-less" strength. Also, unlike muscle which is local, the fascial system is global, which provides an easy explanation for "whole-body" movements (like how I can generate movement in my arms by activating my legs).

As you look more at it, the fascia/tensegrity theory also provides plausible explains for a lot (but not necessarily all) of the ki-related phenomenon. But for the moment that's a separate issue from explaining the stability question I posed earlier.

Sounds good to me, but at a basic level, it sounds like you are talking about a specialized usage of a more general tool. I feel like you could do the same thing in a less global way (would you want too? I am not an experienced enough martial artist to address that). In other words, if you were a master of control of "that which creates fascial tension," then you could use that device to create lines of tension.. let's call them piano wires.. between any points on your body that contain this device. Know what I mean? Same equipment, but a local rather than global strategy of usage.

Well, I'm not sure---honestly---if it even works that way. So the question of "why do it globally when you could do it locally" might be moot.

But I will say this---if you want to move around with a full range of movement, you have to be change the structure around, or in other words, switch from one line to another. Keeping a global system/structure working at all times would allow you to switch between lines without any effort to "start up" or "shut down" individual lines.

... it's likely a big piece of a complex system. I'll lay out the case as I see it, and everyone can be their own judge.

Simpler than that in many ways, I would say, although complex to understand. But read on and decide, as you say, for yourself.

Quote:

Timothy Walters Kleinert wrote:

---I think it comes down to one simple question: How does one stabilize the body?

In other words, what bio-mechanic is being used to hold/move the body? We all know that force is transferred through the skeleton, but how is the skeleton held in place? ... There has to be some sort of bio-mechanical process at work in the body.

There are two typical ways of analyzing static structural stability. First, thrust and load vectors of force and reaction. Second, the method of moments. Of the two, the method of moments generally involves less computation. This is a starting point if we posit some adaptive controller component in the system (which clearly is the case.) One would expect the system to take the computationally conservative solution (on evolutionary grounds, if nothing else).

I am going to put your four points in one big pile and show they all relate.

Quote:

Timothy Walters Kleinert wrote:

1. "Internal" and "external" use the same biomechanics, the difference is just a matter of technique.2. Internal movement is simply an unusually efficient arrangement of normal musculature, facilitated by various mental images.3. Internal movement depends on a hyper-development of postural muscles.4. Fascial Tensegrity

I will start with three items that are NOT unique to aikido in the realm of fighting but unique to it in its intentional direction toward those aspects as the basis for its strategic approach. Other approaches will necessarily start at item four and in intentional mimicry of that basis from training (see item 8) but the real thing I would maintain is the natural system unchained. But do consider the importance of them to the "True Budo is love" concept. It ain't daisies and moonlight walks.

Consider this type of biomechanical progression:

1) a threat to a loved one <<crucial component>>

2) oxytocin aggression hormone dump (read up on it -- cool stuff completely different effect from pure adrenal surge -- and it can dictate adrenal surge through the HPA axis, as needed)

3) Smooth myofascial tissues contract in response making the body and limbs into taut drum-like tube.

4) Training has caused the body (as this hormonal surge takes hold) into certain postural forms that are then set into relative form like a stiffened "Jello," if you will. Anybody who has raked leaves or shovelled for a good while has had this kind of "set" occur in their hands from another mechanism (histamine, likely) evoking the same tissue response.

5) the body has just become a unified field for any vibration moving through it because the limb discontinuities are overridden by the continuous and relatively solidified "suit" therefore structural change information travels at the speed of sound in water ~1500 fps vice neural transmission speed ~60 fps. Adaptive response rates can therefor outstrip conscious counteraction by two orders of magnitude -- That's a lot of lead time against the four guys on the end of a jo.

6) The form of the limbs, though relatively fixed (e.g. tegatana) allows the translation of moments into different axes which changes the effect of action upon the structure without directly opposing it with articulated "local" muscular action. Such a mechanism altering length in two complementary axes, simultaneously (the principle or mode of asagao (watch the video of the Morning Glory (asagao) blooming.)

7) Under hormonal surge these alterations of the static moment of the body can only be driven from the core to "stir" the stiffened Jello to transmit its "jiggle" unimpeded from one end of the structure to the other. That's why it is not that muscle is an active "local mover" -- it is a passive local re-transmitter.

8) in training we find ways to mimic this hormonal condition more or less voluntarily. A good example being the no-inch punch -- in essence hitting with the whole mass of the jello behind a coordinated delivery of a half a jiggle (a single jig- without the -gle, so to speak) But in a true threat action where this hormone cascade functions, the action achieved is neither voluntarily decided or contrived, nor even possible of being constrained in action.

9) A moment is written as a half -circular arrow -- the beginning of a rotation -- which is what it is -- a rotational potential. If all the body is doing is resolving induced moments, then the thing I propose makes perfect sense. The (high frequency) impulse of the contact is transmitted (via a vibration -- a rotation-in-place) long before the structure as a whole begins an unrecoverable rotation. This is an adaptive signal telling all the needed information about location signa nd magnitude of the instantaneous change in total moment, running well ahead of the induced structural change -- all it needs is a responsive system, waiting to use it. This body is an an analog computer assessing the virtual work of the moment sensed and then simply compensating to bring it to zero.