Michael's System

As part of my spring cleaning I have just completed giving my Pioneer parts (why does he still use that cheap thing?) a quick tuneup. Meaning I have top tuned all of the practical parts on the unit one at a time. A chore done with love of the tune. Remarkable how every time I do this I'm a bit in shock of how each part sounds different when tuned.

As I am doing a study on how much parts really do vibrate as they pass signal (again) it sharpens my listening skills. It's good to do a basic study on how parts work every now and then to give us proper perspective.

I found this while studying

"An electric current flowing in a circuit does not cause vibrations at the physical level (good or bad), unless the circuit is a vibrator, loudspeaker, motor or some other electro-mechanical device. (i.e. components don't vibrate of their own accord unless designed to do so.)"

the writer gives this glossary

Passive: Capable of operating without an external power source. Typical passive components are resistors, capacitors, inductors and diodes (although the latter are a special case).

DC: Direct Current The electrons flow in one direction only. Current flow is from negative to positive, although it is often more convenient to think of it as from positive to negative. This is sometimes referred to as "conventional" current as opposed to electron flow.

AC: Alternating Current The electrons flow in both directions in a cyclic manner - first one way, then the other. The rate of change of direction determines the frequency, measured in Hertz (cycles per second).

Frequency: Unit is Hertz, Symbol is Hz, old symbol was cps (cycles per second) A complete cycle is completed when the AC signal has gone from zero volts to one extreme, back through zero volts to the opposite extreme, and returned to zero. The accepted audio range is from 20Hz to 20,000Hz. The number of times the signal completes a complete cycle in one second is the frequency.

Voltage: Unit is Volts, Symbol is V or U, old symbol was E Voltage is the "pressure" of electricity, or "electromotive force" (hence the old term E). A 9V battery has a voltage of 9V DC, and may be positive or negative depending on the terminal that is used as the reference. The mains has a voltage of 220, 240 or 110V depending where you live - this is AC, and alternates between positive and negative values. Voltage is also commonly measured in millivolts (mV), and 1,000 mV is 1V. Microvolts (uV) and nanovolts (nV) are also used.

Current: Unit is Amperes (Amps), Symbol is I Current is the flow of electricity (electrons). No current flows between the terminals of a battery or other voltage supply unless a load is connected. The magnitude of the current is determined by the available voltage, and the resistance (or impedance) of the load and the power source. Current can be AC or DC, positive or negative, depending upon the reference. For electronics, current may also be measured in mA (milliamps) - 1,000 mA is 1A. Nanoamps (nA) are also used in some cases.

Resistance: Unit is Ohms, Symbol is R or Ω Resistance is a measure of how easily (or with what difficulty) electrons will flow through the device. Copper wire has a very low resistance, so a small voltage will allow a large current to flow. Likewise, the plastic insulation has a very high resistance, and prevents current from flowing from one wire to those adjacent. Resistors have a defined resistance, so the current can be calculated for any voltage. Resistance in passive devices is always positive (i.e. > 0)

Capacitance: Unit is Farads, Symbol is C Capacitance is a measure of stored charge. Unlike a battery, a capacitor stores a charge electrostatically rather than chemically, and reacts much faster. A capacitor passes AC, but will not pass DC (at least for all practical purposes). The reactance or AC resistance (called impedance) of a capacitor depends on its value and the frequency of the AC signal. Capacitance is always a positive value.

Inductance: Unit is Henrys, Symbol is H or L (depending on context) Inductance occurs in any piece of conducting material, but is wound into a coil to be useful. An inductor stores a charge magnetically, and presents a low impedance to DC (theoretically zero), and a higher impedance to AC dependent on the value of inductance and the frequency. In this respect it is the electrical opposite of a capacitor. Inductance is always a positive value. The symbol "Hy" is sometimes used in (guess where :-) ... the US. There is no such symbol.

Impedance: Unit is Ohms, Symbol is Ω or Z Unlike resistance, impedance is a frequency dependent value, and is specified for AC signals. Impedance is made up of a combination of resistance, capacitance, and/ or inductance. In many cases, impedance and resistance are the same (a resistor for example). Impedance is most commonly positive (like resistance), but can be negative with some components or circuit arrangements.

Decibels: Unit is Bel, but because this is large, deci-Bels (1/10th Bel) are used), Symbol is dB Decibels are used in audio because they are a logarithmic measure of voltage, current or power, and correspond well to the response of the ear. A 3dB change is half or double the power (0.707 or 1.414 times voltage or current respectively). Decibels will be discussed more thoroughly in a separate section.______________________________________________

"Passive: Capable of operating without an external power source. Typical passive components are resistors, capacitors, inductors and diodes (although the latter are a special case)."

Do audio engineers believe that passive means Non-movement? Do they believe the circuit design is above the effects of vibration?

Wik:

"A resistor is a two-terminal passive electronic component which implements electrical resistance (movement) as a circuit element. When a voltage (movement) V is applied (movement) across (movement) the terminals of a resistor, a current (movement) I will flow (movement) through the resistor in direct proportion to that voltage. (The reciprocal of the constant of proportionality is known as the resistance) (all movement) R, since, with a given voltage V, a larger value of R further "resists" (movement) the flow (movement) of current (movement) I as given by Ohm's law."

I of course inserted the word movement. But I back this up with a confirmation from Vishay's tech support as I did not want to speak out of ignorance.

How do your passive parts work?

"Our parts run off of voltage, yes electrical current, a flowing signal"

Why are resistors,capacitors and inductors called passive components in electronics?

"Because they don't supply any energy to the circuit or involve any energy from a secondary supply." "They passively react or resist the actions of the circuit."

Do they vibrate when in use?

"Yes, vibration is a part of heat (resistance) and the storage give and take."

A fun time

_________________michael greenPH 702 762 3245 Email mgtune@yahoo.com

Michael GreenAdmin

Posts : 3564Join date : 2009-09-12Location : Vegas/Ohio/The Beach

Subject: Re: Michael's System Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:55 pm

Hi Tunees

This has been another very exciting week for me as we (Vegasites) are heading into the best time of the year for listening. It's a time when I can feel sound being it's best as I cut wood or sand surfaces. It's extra special because I have been working on the new MGA Spikes & Cones and they not only sound fantastic but are also giving me a chance to hear a wide range of metals transfer energy at their peak performance levels.

YES, MGA Spikes & Cones are being born as we speak.

Years and years of listening has gone by without the ability to truly express myself in a manor of thought becomes reality. You can only go so far before making compromised decisions when developing products. The Audiopoint was one of those compromises that I can now finally put to bed and say goodbye to.

The Audiopoint actually started with my search for a transfer cone that I could use with my racks which were becoming very popular back around 1990. I was using cones from a German company until I visited a store in Wisconsin where I met a fella with these odd shaped cones. They were not necessarily refined but sounded much better with my early rack design than other cones. As far as I was concerned the search could halt as I co-designed some of the parts I needed together with what Brent had already done. Thus the birth of the Audiopoint. It did not take long at all for the high end industry to embrace Michael Green's Audiopoints into their favorite product listings. But this was not all rosy as there developed 2 little problems. 1. I heard some things in the design that needed to be upgraded. There was a sonic flaw that could be change but would require the shape to vary from it's original course a little. Basically frequencies were getting lost in the transfer while others were being too prominent. The product also had a coating applied to it that caused surface distortion. As the signal made it's way down the transfer pipeline the skin effect was dulled. 2. The second problem was worse. AMD (Audio Machine & Design) didn't want to make the changes and wasn't fond of the idea that everyone was calling them Michael Green Audiopoints instead of AMD Audiopoints. MGA and RoomTune were 2 names that gained the trust of listeners as being accurate music producers always on the look out of ways to keep refining that state of the art of the hobby. I did this with every product and and the cones would not be an exception. Well, those of you who know me a little could guess how this turned out right? LOL

The MTD was born. Mechanical Transfer Devise should have been the next big wave in the tuning line up but I was way to busy tuning the world and designing. I didn't realize that the audio world was about to change going from mom and pop shops to the internet sale. While I was tweaking Recording studios in Nashville a whole new industry was being developed under my nose and I never looked up to see it. Companies started doing knock offs of my products or reping themselves as being the real deal when they were nothing more than unimaginative spin offs that couldn't do the one thing that we the tunees have always been the worlds best at doing, "tuning". After the manager for Tune Manufacturing retired I have wanted to redo the whole MTD process. Take what I have learned from the MTD changes and going even further into the exploration of where one surface meets another. What is it that happens when the energy flows from one mass to the next as it makes it's way to ground and beyond! A MTD must be able to take the content (full range) and transfer it. That means gather, send and (very important) exchange the information.

I listen to everything even the listener's feedback. When something is going on that produces a particular sound there is a counterbalance that must take place to the equation for the audio signal energy to transfer accurately. Never have I been so aware of this till after I moved to the SW United States. The whole humidity chapter of the equation has slapped me in the face and I now can see how much it effects listening everywhere. I am also beginning to understand why things sound so much better when they are hand voiced a certain way under certain conditions as opposed to the wrong set of conditions. The absolute biggest part to this whole hobby and any circuit or wave driven application is "vibration".

For example: as you know I'm closely working with Bill333 on his tunable room and system development. It's exciting for me to work on a system that is so cutting edge and it gives me a chance to explore. Recently Bill has been talking to me about his top tuning transfer. When I was there we had just got to the place where the stage was becoming it's own king and I felt very comfortable letting the room settle and do it's thing along with everything in it. One of the things I did as a quickie while I was there was whip up a top tuning canopy board so Bill could use it while I made up the real toys back here. It was fine as a start to get you there kind of thing, or was it? After I left Bill was telling me that he was not able to get the top tuning to his liking. I thought this strange based on the little listening I did there. HMMM I thought until I received a package containing tuning boards done a while back that he had sent to me 3 weeks ago. These were boards done out east and I could tell were done in the humidity instead of a controlled environment. Interesting, could it be that boards done outside of my guidelines of set production be that far off of right? I mean I do have to admit that every once in a while I like being called the Audio Guru (lol) but anyone can really do what I do if they follow a particular plan. The tuning boards that were sent to me sound awful. It's clear that wood was not taken care of and that before any layering was applied humidity ruined the fibers. What this means is you can't mix high humidity with the process and expect that later you can dry it out to the point of sounding good. The drying has to be happening during the process. Bill333 is sending me a piece of canopy wood that was done at his place (the one you see in his pics that we did there). I'm going to compare this directly against a piece that I have just done here. The one here is done exacting the same way with no extra voicing and any thing I do will be done to both. I'm absolutely positive that the board done here under the drying conditions will blow away the one done there.

I went through a similar process when receiving boards from Michigan years ago. I completely had to strip them down the the raw wood and than some and start from scratch. While I was doing this I weighed the wood and saw that the Michigan wood was still holding at least 30% too much weight. If the wood is not sealed at the right amount of dry there is no way you can dry it after the fact to fix it unless you go down to the virgin wood itself and start again treating the fibers properly. Once the wood is sealed properly it can be shipped where ever and made to sound great. Sometimes I'm surprised at how good great is. For example the speakers I got in to tune here after being in North Carolina and the last time I visited a tunable studio in NY where even though the room was set at 40% for 5 years it was pitch perfect without anyone touching the tuning screws for those 5 years.

I love that fact that I never stop learning about the tuning process and that tuning is something that you can not fake. Nature is going to play the major role and trying to take the spotlight away from reality is never going to happen no matter how much high end hype people choose to throw at our ears. I also love that fact that our systems are musical instruments and that we can voice them into sonic bliss by combining materials together with circuitry.

wood and other materials

I will continue to fine and refine the interaction of the materials that make up our systems. This to me has been my life time quest and it becomes more interesting to me every step I take and every time I hear yet a new layer to the reproduction of recorded music. I have no interest in model changing as some do so they have something new to show but instead love the idea of putting everything on the chopping block so the parts and pieces of the tune speak for themselves and call out to yet other pieces of the puzzle of music reproduction to join in. For this reason we have been doing test on many different types of materials and are hoping to bridge the gap of transfer and signal resistance even better.

The new Spikes & Cones are done in a controlled environment as well with vibratory cleaning applied. This means that the surface of the machined metal is turned at the exact speed that produces perfect pitch and followed with vibration that makes the extra materials float off of the surface of both the cutting tool and the newly formed material. How accurate is the shape and surface? The new MGA Spikes & Cones are inspected by the same tool used to inspected the parts on the Space Shuttle and laser guide systems.

That's pretty accurate!

_________________michael greenPH 702 762 3245 Email mgtune@yahoo.com

Michael GreenAdmin

Posts : 3564Join date : 2009-09-12Location : Vegas/Ohio/The Beach

Subject: Re: Michael's System Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:22 pm

there went the sun king

I arose early this morning to get in as much sanding as I can. It's a sun up to sun down event for me and before long it will shift to over night as we get into the hot months. Sometimes I look at my thread and wonder what you guys might be thinking as I jump all over the place painting a picture that is much different from talking about one system and how to tweak it. Well for me it's like having many systems in many parts of the world and I'm finding a balance to all of them. Kinda cool when you think about it unless you have days like today where I know that everything is coming inside after enjoying days of dry. When I say everything I mean everything down to the sandpaper itself. You don't really think about the moisture effect until you turn a tool on or begin to do something after a huge humidity shift. I'm always looking 3 days ahead on the weather channel when planing my work as humidity and the lack of it has become the biggest factor in everything I do.

Today for example, it would be disaster to start applying finish knowing that the next 5 days will be in the 30% range. What this means is I can only do certain parts to the tune and not others. I can only do work with certain papers with products that are so far along and don't dare touch others. If I do a cut today (which I would never do today cause of the forecast) I need 3 days of super dry to get ready for a coat and after that coat it is a constant testing of pitch before the wood moves to the next stage. Pretty interesting stuff seeing that I now (if I'm doing it) am putting on between 6 and 11 coats.

back to work, it will be a long day

_________________michael greenPH 702 762 3245 Email mgtune@yahoo.com

Michael GreenAdmin

Posts : 3564Join date : 2009-09-12Location : Vegas/Ohio/The Beach

Subject: Re: Michael's System Sun Apr 10, 2011 8:45 pm

Don't you just love listening!

People ask me, how I can stay on one piece of music for such a long time? It's how I learn and it's fascinating. It never gets boring opening up areas of the stage and purifying the sound. On my end of things I'm not playing with what I have as far as a component goes but exploring the magic that comes from nature and materials.

Sonic recently put up a post mentioning settling. I was thinking about putting up a long explanation then started thinking about time and knew that I would (like I always do) run out of it. However the study of the mingling of mass is always on my mind and drives my thoughts to the reality of how listening really works. When we are working with waves or currents of any kind there are rules that apply. We might think that these rules are small and do not have a big effect on our listening but we would be incorrect in heading down this path.

GRAVITY

http://www.launc.tased.edu.au/online/sciences/physics/gravity.html

Gravity is something that we commonly think of in terms of planets and stars but when we break it down to the size of mechanical conduits carrying audio signal we're bringing it down to our level. Now I have to be honest here and say that I have not done much work (yet) with wire gauges under 36. Reason being they are getting too small to cut accurately at that point. However these very small gauges pass audio signals just fine. What does this have to do with with settling? Mass, energy and current all tie in together when working on sound. Not only do you have parts and pieces pulling on each other all the time but you also have an exchange of energy going on plus the resistance of mass.

I'm going to break some of this down a little.

EVERYTHING IS MADE OF ATOMS

Imagine a pure piece of copper. Divide it in half and give one of the halves away. Keep dividing and dividing and dividing. Soon you will have a piece so small you will not be able to see it without a microscope. It may be very, very small, but it is still a piece of copper. If you could keep dividing it into smaller and smaller pieces, you would finally get to the smallest piece of copper possible. It is called an atom. If you divided it into smaller pieces, it would no longer be copper. So the absolute smallest size of copper that could potentially pass an audio signal would be an atom.

Everything around us is made of atoms. Scientists so far have found only 115 different kinds of atoms. Everything you see is made of different combinations of these atoms.

PARTS OF AN ATOM

So what are atoms made of? In the middle of each atom is a "nucleus." The nucleus contains two kinds of tiny particles, called protons and neutrons. Orbiting around the nucleus are even smaller particles called electrons. The 115 kinds of atoms are different from each other because they have different numbers of protons, neutrons and electrons.

Think of a model of the atom as similar to the solar system. The nucleus is in the center of the atom, like the sun in the center of the solar system. The electrons orbit around the nucleus like the planets around the sun. Just like in the solar system, the nucleus is large compared to the electrons. The atom is mostly empty space. And the electrons are very far away from the nucleus.

Note: A more accurate model would show the electrons moving in 3- dimensional volumes with different shapes, called orbitals.

Are you with me here? Keep picturing the signal traveling through, around or on this.

ELECTRICAL CHARGEs

Protons, neutrons and electrons are very different from each other. They have their own properties, or characteristics. One of these properties is called an electrical charge. Protons have what we call a "positive" (+) charge. Electrons have a "negative" (-) charge. Neutrons have no charge, they are neutral. The charge of one proton is equal in strength to the charge of one electron. When the number of protons in an atom equals the number of electrons, the atom itself has no overall charge, it is neutral.

ELECTRONS MOVE

The protons and neutrons in the nucleus are held together very tightly. Normally the nucleus does not change. But some of the outer electrons are held very loosely. They and move from one atom to another. An atom that loses electrons has more positive charges (protons) than negative charges (electrons). It is positively charged. An atom that gains electrons has more negative than positive particles. It has a negative charge. A charged atom is called an "ion."

Some materials hold their electrons very tightly. Electrons do not move through them very well. These things are called insulators. Plastic, cloth, glass and dry air are good insulators. Other materials have some loosely held electrons, which move through them very easily. These are called conductors. Most metals are good conductors.

How can we move electrons from one place to another? Contact of the conductors is all it takes. Electrons will still move through the insulators to a much smaller degree but the noticeable energy that we call current moves through the conductors.

OPPOSITES ATTRACT

Now, positive and negative charges behave in interesting ways. Did you ever hear the saying that opposites attract? Well, it's true. Two things with opposite, or different charges (a positive and a negative) will attract, or pull towards each other. Things with the same charge (two positives or two negatives) will repel, or push away from each other.

A charged object will also attract something that is neutral. Think about how you can make a balloon stick to the wall. If you charge a balloon by rubbing it on your hair, it picks up extra electrons and has a negative charge. Holding it near a neutral object will make the charges in that object move. If it is a conductor, many electrons move easily to the other side, as far from the balloon as possible. If it is an insulator, the electrons in the atoms and molecules can only move very slightly to one side, away from the balloon. In either case, there are more positive charges closer to the negative balloon. Opposites attract. The balloon sticks. (At least until the electrons on the balloon slowly leak off.) It works the same way for neutral and positively charged objects.

MASS CAN CORUPT

As atoms mingle electrons play an interesting role in both the insulator and the conductor that together make up a conduit passing energy. The rate of mass in an in an insulator will dictate how many electrons jump from one atom to another shifting the balance between positive and negative. We tend to think of an insulator as being an absolute blocker of electrons but this is not the case as all atoms that make up all materials contain protons, electrons and neutrons. The make up of an insulator and the size of it in relationship to a conductor is very delicate as the balancing act between the positive charge and negative charge plays out. Because the earth is in constant motion as well as atoms there is a need for give and take which we call fair exchange. When the relationship between the positive and negative charge becomes unbalanced it causes distortion in the current flow of signal. In the electronic world we know this as resistance. Adding mass of a particularly insulator or conductor will cause the flow of current to decrease. It's important that we understand that this happens to both and it's effect on passing signal. We would think that adding mass to a conductor would increase the flow of current without distortion but this is only the case if the conductor has very little electron exchange taking place in relationship to the insulators around the conductor. It is much easier to avoid distortion by passing signal through a conductor with just enough mass in relationship to the current itself than the use of too much conductor that is needing to fill the space with insulation or resistance.

CONFUSED? DON'T BE

Where we usually get confused is where we draw the line between insulator and conductor. Let me make it easy for you. Think of the two as being less or more of the same thing. They both on an atom level are made up of the same parts doing different levels and arrangements of the parts. They are in constant contact with other atoms and share electrons. This ever sharing causes a balance between 3 primary settings positive, negative and neutral. When in balance the flow of current goes smoother with more ability to carry a pure signal. When out of balance the signal is distorted by to much of one side or the other.

Understanding what an atom is as a fundamental starting point is a great way of keeping our thinking fresh and not getting off track when we are thinking about does something effect something else.

DOES SOMETHING EFFECT SOMETHING ELSE?

Everything effects everything else completely as everything is made up of the same basic thing. Static electricity is actually a big example of the exchange of energy but picture this working on the level of signal passing through a conduit where the biggest factor by far is what we know as space. We as humans look at the atom as a small part making up a big part and yet the biggest ingredient to and atom is still space. Space as we know it is the biggest contributor to free movement. So when you ask yourself if something is sitting still (settled) or still in movement the answer is pretty easy. How much movement? This depends on a few factors like speed and bonding. How long does it take for an atom to bond with another atom is the place to start. Keep in mind that most researchers would say that it is the electron that causes the bonding between two atoms so this constant mingling of atoms has more to do with things being stable enough to be called settled than we would think on the surface. I say this because if we are talking the electron as being the bond than the space that the electrons are moving in which is on the outside of the nucleus would have to be very much like taking our Earth's atmosphere and calling it energy/mass seeking glue. I use the Earth's atmosphere as a space and size comparison to give an idea but scientist would say it to be much bigger, more like the Earth to Sun relationship.

There are other factors in learning about settling but we would need to write a book on these. I look at settling in two ways, making a change and the consent change that is always going on. Where does an audiophile draw the line in returns I leave that up to them but as for myself and others like Jim Bookhard have said "settling is perhaps the biggest tweak". I'm someone who has made mechanical tweaks all their life and I can't say definitively that my toys are as much of the change over change itself or is the consent settling itself is bigger. I will say this though with a fair amount of confidence. After you make a small tweak change it takes a ton longer than a few minutes or even hours for that change to have settled to the point of revealing the major part of the tweak itself. I say that in reference to making sensible tweaks of course with the basic understanding of how the tune works. A small tweak would be like moving a cable for example.

_________________michael greenPH 702 762 3245 Email mgtune@yahoo.com

Michael GreenAdmin

Posts : 3564Join date : 2009-09-12Location : Vegas/Ohio/The Beach

Subject: Re: Michael's System Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:48 am

As I get ready to saddle myself in for another day of listening I wanted to share with you that the MGA AAB1X1 is ready for ordering. I'm extremely happy with the step this has made in my setup. Body, resolution and space have improved a great deal over the MTDs. I'm getting huge splashes from cymbals that dissolve nicely into the background and the bass is very punctual and musical. Pianos float and have solidity. I detect no upper phasing at all which is a nice thing to have as phasing always gets so weird starting around 3.5khz with many systems. People don't know what this is until they hear it gone. Many think this is a crossover function but it is not it is a natural mechanical function that almost all rooms go through caused from a reaction of the sound wave hitting the walls, ceiling and flours in rooms that are under 85' long. It doesn't get talked about a lot cause it is so hard to describe and shows up differently in different rooms based on the construction of the room. It's a weird thing sometimes when mechanics meet acoustics and they interchange their effects on each other. We try to technify things to make it easy on our brains but sometimes the numbers just don't add up when we try to apply math to our rooms and setups. Those weird phasing issues are always there to greet us until we find the correct transfer from our parts to the floor. Let me give you an example on the lower end scale.

Ever get your system tuned to the point where the bass (even at low volumes) vibrates your chair. You can feel it in the floor even if the floor is hard like mine for example. I'm sitting on sand on stone on concrete on tile. Now how can I get a 40 hertz vibration on my feet with low volumes? I couldn't until I put the AAB1X1 under my speakers and platforms the other week. Now I can enjoy the feel of an organ as well as the sound. That's right 6.5" woofers and no sub. Impossible right? Not if like I say "harmonics are in line".

With mid and higher frequencies there are these inverted waves that get caused by collisions of other waves that are formed from objects in the room combined with things in the room that hold waves like sofas end tables, lamp shades, windows and on. Because these objects create their own waves they are sources just like your speakers. If your speakers are not in tune with the floor the waves as they get higher in frequencies become out of tune and start throwing off distorted sound wave patterns that simulate all the other objects in a room making a real mess. If the speakers are in tune with the floor many of the objects in the room only get stimulated at resonant frequencies and disappear sonically in a lot of cases. You can ask people who have visited my places and heard this for themselves wondering how I could be right next to big windowed doors and the listener not hear them. This is because I painstakingly grounded my speakers along with a tuning wall behind my head. The AAB1X1 does a lot of the work for me now as the grounding of speaker to platform and platform to floor has become surprisingly tuned.

A note of interest for those of you thinking this is easy: you should see all of the high tech metals sitting off to the side because they did not make the listening cut. I can tell you that a ton of the materials in your components are hurting the sound more than you have any idea they could. As I break down my list of materials in my system that are doing a good job over ones not you might be surprised.

_________________michael greenPH 702 762 3245 Email mgtune@yahoo.com

Michael GreenAdmin

Posts : 3564Join date : 2009-09-12Location : Vegas/Ohio/The Beach

Subject: summer listening Sun May 01, 2011 3:14 pm

Summer Listening__________________________

The last 3 days and nights have been very busy and hopefully my MIA will pay off in the long run. Mr. Drewster and I have decided that I will stay at my current place throughout the summer so the search for more listening rooms and work space is off for now. The good season is upon us and being able to roll out of bed on to the floors of the listening rooms is nice. Having production off site has made this possible because without it I'm wall to wall raw materials and no room to breath outside of my one listening area. We'll see how organized I can be but it looks like this is what I will have after 2 weeks.

What I've left out besides some of my setups is the outdoor living space which during the summer is converted into outside living rooms pretty much. At the end of last summer I installed an outdoor home theater which during the evenings in the desert here is quite relaxing. My sofas have already been moved outside to make room for nothing but listening chairs on the inside except for my lazy writing area. So for any who may visit it's the casino hotels for you cause the space is officially taken. I will probably not be hosting guest this summer anyway cause I have so much listening to do and will more than likely not have my usual listening land setup for any who are stopper bys.

As you can see listening 1 has been where I have been doing the "Abbey Road Experience" from. Are you surprised by how big of a soundstage I'm getting? I give the credit to the lack of objects in the room burning too much energy and the use of all the new toys.

_________________michael greenPH 702 762 3245 Email mgtune@yahoo.com

Robert Harrison

Posts : 254Join date : 2010-03-08Location : Harwood Heights, Illinois

Subject: Re: Michael's System Sun May 01, 2011 3:41 pm

Hey, Mr. Green,

Cool stuff!

Now, when you mention "lack of objects in the room burning too much energy," is this why you specifically mention certain massive objects in my room? Is that entertainment center of mine in particular acting as a sound trap or some such?

This has been rolling around in my mind the last few days. It would be a bear to move that thing out of the room (even move it at all), but I know if I hear immediate sonic benefits, I'll forget the pain of exertion soon enough. Before I got that monster, I used to use a simple TV stand on casters (15.5" W x 29.5" L x 28" H) to put my components on (as well as another taller but less wide cabinet). The stand has 3 shelves, so I could bring it back into the room, put the pre-amp and the 2 amps on it and move the Blu-ray player to the empty shelf beneath the other TV stand (the one that actually has a TV on it, which I will not move out of the room).

So, what if I do that and move out the lamp stand behind my chairs as well. What say ye to that, i.e what would be my room configuration then? I'm looking at options here, as you can see.

Robert

Michael GreenAdmin

Posts : 3564Join date : 2009-09-12Location : Vegas/Ohio/The Beach

Subject: Re: Michael's System Sun May 01, 2011 4:00 pm

Hi Robert

Yes, in my rooms I get as much out as I possibly can. You will be shocked at the amount of usable energy. All those spaces in the cabinets and table are acting as acoustical treatments and you will either be spending time working around (including) them or you will be taking a big step toward the tuning of your acoustics.

I'm the same way. As I was talking to Andrew I was picturing the things that were going to disappear from my space. Their only visual anyway cause when the music comes on the place transforms into a sound stage. At that point I have no desire to be distracted by looking at things. Hallways and other places can be hosted by things to look at.

Now in your case I would get rid of the stuff taking anyway from the sound and make some of the other cool stuff in your place like pics and posters a part of the sound. My place is full of art that is either TuneART or pictures that have been somewhat converted into something usable. As I do some of my cleaning up and setting up of the other rooms I'll take pics, but I see your room as being different than it is now but very artsy, full of the same flavor as what you have.

I think that we can incorperate the TV stand into the room, but the entertainment center is a big blocker of sound right now. A smaller stand is much better and better yet would be a platform to set components on and tune.

_________________michael greenPH 702 762 3245 Email mgtune@yahoo.com

Michael GreenAdmin

Posts : 3564Join date : 2009-09-12Location : Vegas/Ohio/The Beach

Subject: Re: Michael's System Mon May 09, 2011 2:01 pm

I have created another monster

Will I dig my way out this week? I don't know

As I have removed almost all dampening from my place except my writing area my volume of acoustical energy throughout the place has grown tremendously. This throws me back to the days of The Towers where I used all of the rooms to effect the other rooms as acoustical ports (kind of built in pressure boxes). The difference is at the Towers I was on slabs covered with carpet that I needed to bring to life. Here I have nothing but tile except for listening area 2 where there was carpet. No more though as I have removed it leaving the bare concrete. My entire place's volume jumped.

This week will be quite the week as I start to get a little tuned in. Oh my, big sound stages here we come

_________________michael greenPH 702 762 3245 Email mgtune@yahoo.com

Robert Harrison

Posts : 254Join date : 2010-03-08Location : Harwood Heights, Illinois

Subject: Re: Michael's System Mon May 09, 2011 4:27 pm

Hey, Mr. Green,

Having had the same listening (and viewing) area for years, I have become sort of set in my ways. With multiple set-ups, I can see how you get your "aural exercises," so to speak, and keep toning your tuning abilities. I am as interested in your results as you are mine.

Robert

Michael GreenAdmin

Posts : 3564Join date : 2009-09-12Location : Vegas/Ohio/The Beach

Subject: Re: Michael's System Fri May 20, 2011 9:42 pm

Hi Guys

I'm coming up for air. Listening, listening, listening!

_________________michael greenPH 702 762 3245 Email mgtune@yahoo.com

Michael GreenAdmin

Posts : 3564Join date : 2009-09-12Location : Vegas/Ohio/The Beach

Subject: Re: Michael's System Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:13 pm

Thought I was anyway! Got in the new computer audio setup and have been a very busy listener.

This is indeed the new frontier and as I read about it on the forums I can already see the audiophiles over building their systems. I am literally weeks away from being able to say that these minimalistic setups need to be uphold the low mass principle that we have established in our former lives but hearing is the proof.

In the end Bill333 will have the first true tunable PC system made based on the lowest amount of mass possible and the highest degree of tunability. The goal is to make this tunability stable and easy.

We will end up with a system that will be able to switch from AC to DC, meaning using a tunable fuse box with direct feeds to the system as well as all battery operation.

The main EQ platform area is 36" X 48" and will be located outside of the Tunable Room. It is raised off of the ground appox 18" depending on what type of footing is used. One mistake we almost made was sending the EQ platform out to Chicago too soon. In my opinion it has saved the day when we have found some of the sonic challenges that the battery ran PC system faced. I didn't realize how much of a space saver this unit was until 2 weeks ago when we started to tune in the mass of the Red Top batteries pushing the system. The extreme full range values the the EQ platform has helped me (and continues too) find the FRV (frequency range value) separation of the individual components and how they react to there circuit boards. Basically I have setup my place as a listening/test lab. I'm able to keep everything burning in (which is a must) while evaluating the Audio Chain. This is the only way to do true A/B testing and I am once again convinced that quick A/B testing is in no way valid and nothing more than a guess at best.

My next session is about to begin (so I head off to listen) but I vow to you that I will be spending time on the techno-zone shortly. This past year has required 5 of me and there is but I. Not complaining (too much) just wish I was cloned so I could share every thing in real time back to you.

_________________michael greenPH 702 762 3245 Email mgtune@yahoo.com

Sonic.beaver

Posts : 2197Join date : 2009-09-18

Subject: Re: Michael's System Mon Aug 01, 2011 11:44 am

Hi Michael

Wonderful...3 pairs of speakers. What model are these, what have you got available for ordering?

Sonic

Michael GreenAdmin

Posts : 3564Join date : 2009-09-12Location : Vegas/Ohio/The Beach

Subject: Re: Michael's System Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:52 pm

The past 4 months

have been a wonderful world of discovery for me. To call what I have been listening to as my system would only be true in part. It has actually been a combination of several systems with many combos parts and pieces. Through these last few months the power of the tuning tools have proved to be the champions of sound once more. At times the closer I moved toward high end audio the further away from the music I got. On the other hand the closer I moved toward simplicity and full range designed components the more the music took on the character of real, full and believable.

How do I describe the last year without beating up on some well known designers and their products? Honestly I don't know! Maybe I should be delicate and say "if you only want part" of the sound keep buying into what the high end forums, rags and designers are feeding you. As much fun as it was to explore these small pieces of the total picture when compared to a full range setup like the Pioneer/mag/60's there was little to brag about let alone salvage from the sound. Many have come to trust me as having good ears and knowing how to setup systems, but can one really believe that the simple setup I have been using can out perform the "audiophile cat's meow"? Evidence of this can be heard by going to the Vegas CES then visiting my place, or and even better hearing the before and after stories of my recent visits and listening sessions at my place, the tunable room, Drewsters place and Sean's. In all four of these places the simple setups of the mag/pioneer/mga speakers cleared the table and cleaned the map with the high end.

the audiophile setups

There was in all cases an extreme loss of musical pace in the audiophile setups that made the music for myself unable to take seriously. Soundstages were tiny and thin and there were holes all through the music to the point of missing instruments and important music cues. I spent much time trying to bring out the music but as soon as I found one part another would come up missing. It was like pulling audio teeth and made me wonder why would designers build equipment so lacking in the total picture. It was similar to my experiences with over damped equipment after removing the weight to find that the components didn't have what it takes to make music. Shallow thin and constantly heading toward bright is what I ran into. All of the information that was music kept disappearing into this cloud of high pitch distortion. Basically my impression was "nothing new". The same ole lack of musical vision from a group of people who evidently don't know how to setup a system as a whole and designing with limited parameters.

the approved tune systems

Music! This pretty much sums it up. The right and wrongs disappear as the music takes over. The first noticeable difference is the range of the sound top to bottom as if someone turn on the music lights making it able to see a holistic picture. I remember letting others tell me their thoughts before I jumped in as I did not want to preprogram any minds. The looks on the faces told the story clearly. The basic revelation was like eating a piece of pie or having the whole thing and indulging, with milk, and ice cream, after eating a steak meal. I will get around to writing on the Pioneer 3400 & Mag 2100 combo in which I will name names for comparisons, but in the meantime I think it's important for us to get our heads on straight and take a look at what sound is and how the audio chain produces it. Also taking a look at the tools of the tune being far more valuable than some of the number games that are being thrown around in our digital age. Much of this comes down to the rule of simplisty and how our electrical systems do not like adding parts. This doesn't explain everything away but it's a start. The other very important issue is, if you don't have a good source you will never correct it further down the chain.

_________________michael greenPH 702 762 3245 Email mgtune@yahoo.com

Michael GreenAdmin

Posts : 3564Join date : 2009-09-12Location : Vegas/Ohio/The Beach

Subject: Re: Michael's System Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:14 am

Today the MGA Tuning Wall went in place behind me and I'm looking so forward to tuning it into my ears and room. It has already expanded the tonal range and I can only imagine what this thing is going to do during the next few months of hand voicing.

latest setup

_________________michael greenPH 702 762 3245 Email mgtune@yahoo.com

Sonic.beaver

Posts : 2197Join date : 2009-09-18

Subject: Re: Michael's System Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:18 am

Hi Michael

What's the object shaded in light wood grain behind and between the two angled PZCs at your front wall?

What's the darker wood grain shaded object in front of the PZCs and behind the platform?

Sonic

Michael GreenAdmin

Posts : 3564Join date : 2009-09-12Location : Vegas/Ohio/The Beach

Subject: Re: Michael's System Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:12 pm

Hi Sonic

A PZC setup will follow this one, but here's the current tools.

_________________michael greenPH 702 762 3245 Email mgtune@yahoo.com

Michael GreenAdmin

Posts : 3564Join date : 2009-09-12Location : Vegas/Ohio/The Beach

Subject: Re: Michael's System Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:21 am

Tonight I put together a nice combo for the new setup.

6" side boards on the all Argentina Pine Platform, Poplar .25 boards and slats and AAB1X1sb.

With my windows and tile floors 6" or more is the only way to fly.

_________________michael greenPH 702 762 3245 Email mgtune@yahoo.com

Michael GreenAdmin

Posts : 3564Join date : 2009-09-12Location : Vegas/Ohio/The Beach

Subject: Re: Michael's System Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:51 pm

Todays change

_________________michael greenPH 702 762 3245 Email mgtune@yahoo.com

Robert Harrison

Posts : 254Join date : 2010-03-08Location : Harwood Heights, Illinois

Subject: Re: Michael's System Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:37 pm

Hey, Mr. Green,

Now WHO'S the guy who is always telling us to let things settle for a while before making drastic changes?

Joking aside, I think I see why you did it. I may be wrong, but it seems similar to why I changed to my current configuration in order to make it more uniform, what with my weird room. In your case, maybe you didn't want to deal with that open area on one side. Now, you have walls on both sides and front and what, a SAM, behind you?

Robert

yikes

Posts : 30Join date : 2011-07-08Age : 50Location : Los Angeles

Subject: Re: Michael's System Sun Jan 15, 2012 3:33 am

Great comment Robert. I walked in there today, shocked! I have learned to visually watch that room, notice everything, because I usually see something moved in an inch here, rotated a few degrees, things like that. Also, yep that is a SAM, the reason he was able to move the room to deal with that lopsided room dimension, good catch sir.

In general slow is the way to go, move one thing, let it settle, understand it, and then move on. Keep in mind Michael has spent much time gaining an understanding of that room and, to change out the direction the speakers face, you have to change everything.

By the way, I did not have much time today however, I listened to it. Wow! I plan on spending more time there tomorrow, and I will post with more detail. Initial thoughts are of presence and emotion. That is what I heard.

Michael GreenAdmin

Posts : 3564Join date : 2009-09-12Location : Vegas/Ohio/The Beach

Subject: Re: Michael's System Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:07 am

Hi Guys

I can't tell you how much enjoyment I get out of seeing someone tune! That's what I got to see today. Herns came over, listened a minute and was off to the races from there on. Sean visited and gave his thumbs up, had to leave but I could tell wanted to stay. An audio system to me is an endless pursuit of presentation and every piece of music has it's own. Hanging out with guys who don't sit around and judge but instead jump in and find the golden nuggets in the recording is quite the thrill. Today I have to say I enjoyed sitting in the observation chair as much as I did the listening chair. This was a day that all audiophiles should have the opportunity to wittiness. You don't hear them talk about it cause they don't know it exist. The conversations today did not dwell on components but rather the lack of them.

Tip, if your room does not have all of your electrical outlets not only loosened but taken out of the wall and let hang than you do not know what your system sounds like.

If you have cable touching any other cable or touching too much of any material you are introducing more than you know to your signal path.

Try to avoid letting your interconnect touch anything but the RCA jacks that are on the components.

These and many more old tuning lessons were brought back to life. It makes you think how far can I go with the music once the freedom of free resonants is understood and let loose.

"Now WHO'S the guy who is always telling us to let things settle for a while before making drastic changes?" And yes, we went way too fast, but it was fun.

_________________michael greenPH 702 762 3245 Email mgtune@yahoo.com

Sonic.beaver

Posts : 2197Join date : 2009-09-18

Subject: Re: Michael's System Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:52 am

Hi Michael

Some questions about your new set up:

a. you appear to have a window or sliding door (glass?) running from gthe centre of the room to the Left front corner. How do you treat the glass or the door?

b. how wide is your room?

c. how far apart at the inner edges have you placed your two PZCs?

d. how do you treat the window at the side of your Left speaker?

e. wall outlets hanging out from walls -- only those feeding the hifi or other outlets used for lamps and those not used too?