As an ex-RC, I would rather focus on the fact that the video in question was created and uploaded by a RC who sees that this is a problem. Good for him. It is. Particularly given the "top-down" nature of the RC ecclesiology and the somewhat liberal mindset of many RC bishops, when irreverence is allowed anywhere it can signify a deeply-rooted problem...if you're willing to see it, that is, and not dismiss it because your own parish is not that bad.

Did you comment on the private YIM thread? I can't remember if you are in the private section.

I think anyone taking RCs to task for liturgical irregularities should at least let the Orthodox know what they think about what was discussed there.

I know you are not EO, but I can't see what I you cannot comment.

YIM?

Yesh, YIM, YAM, yeshuaisiam.

That WCC thread. I don't think you weighed on that thread regarding the events which were put forth by YIM.

Did you comment on the private YIM thread? I can't remember if you are in the private section.

I think anyone taking RCs to task for liturgical irregularities should at least let the Orthodox know what they think about what was discussed there.

No. I try to stay away from those threads. I already know that there are liturgical irregularities in the Orthodox Church, though, if that's what it's about. I would repeat the same thing there as I wrote, in that case: If other Orthodox are noticing it and the bishops aren't doing anything about it, then it's a problem that affects all the church, and we shouldn't brush it off just because our own parish might not be that bad. So I don't so much see it as taking the RCC to task (though if their own people want to do that, I'd support it, for whatever that's worth) as it is trying to hold everybody to the same standard.

[1] In the Spanish language edition of the strategic plan the English language phrase "different kinds of families" was more clearly defined as "diferentes clases de familias, incluyendo a los homosexuales y lesbianas." Faith in Service to the World, Spanish Edition, page 31.

Yikes. I would say "no mames", but we all know you're not pulling our legs...

Do you know what the Magisterium is? Your use of the word suggests that you do not.

Your suggestion that I don't only indicates your discomfiture that I do.

You only further prove in this post that you don't understand what it is.

and you only further prove in this post that a useless concept is what it is.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Did you comment on the private YIM thread? I can't remember if you are in the private section.

I think anyone taking RCs to task for liturgical irregularities should at least let the Orthodox know what they think about what was discussed there.

No. I try to stay away from those threads. I already know that there are liturgical irregularities in the Orthodox Church

what do you have in mind?

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Do you know what the Magisterium is? Your use of the word suggests that you do not.

Your suggestion that I don't only indicates your discomfiture that I do.

You only further prove in this post that you don't understand what it is.

and you only further prove in this post that a useless concept is what it is.

How so? All Magisterium means is the teaching authority of the Church. Eastern Orthodoxy believes that the Church has the authority to teach, does it not? The Ecumenical Councils were examples of the Magisterium of the Church teaching authoritatively.

Do you know what the Magisterium is? Your use of the word suggests that you do not.

Your suggestion that I don't only indicates your discomfiture that I do.

You only further prove in this post that you don't understand what it is.

and you only further prove in this post that a useless concept is what it is.

How so? All Magisterium means is the teaching authority of the Church. Eastern Orthodoxy believes that the Church has the authority to teach, does it not? The Ecumenical Councils were examples of the Magisterium of the Church teaching authoritatively.

No, they were examples of the Church teaching authoritatively.

Your "magisterium" makes grandiose claims that its behavior never matches.

I would say that if there were such a Divine Liturgy, that the Orthodox bishops would deal with it swiftly, but I feel that the Faithful would be even swifter in putting a stop to it. Not the dumb sheep that your "magisterium" claims to shepherd.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Did you comment on the private YIM thread? I can't remember if you are in the private section.

I think anyone taking RCs to task for liturgical irregularities should at least let the Orthodox know what they think about what was discussed there.

No. I try to stay away from those threads. I already know that there are liturgical irregularities in the Orthodox Church

what do you have in mind?

I don't want to post the link (because it greatly infuriates me, and we're in the fast time already, when I should be trying to control such things), but the heretic Vassula Ryden (one of many new age pseudo-prophets spreading private revelations) somehow managed to get into a Coptic Church a few years ago and brought a bunch of her sadly deceived followers with her for some kind of "interfaith" whatever (with Buddhist monks or something, dancing around and holding hands and all kinds of stupidity). This might not actually fall under liturgical abuse, as it wasn't during a liturgy proper, but it is the kind of thing I had in mind, in terms of what is allowed (shamefully!) to go on in our churches when people are perhaps not properly informed about what/who they're accepting. It's not really on the level of the RC mass that has been posted here (as it was not directly participated in by Coptic bishops, as far as I can tell; though HH Pope Shenouda was seated at the beginning of the clip I saw and did receive her for some kind of blessing! I wonder if he knew who she was/that she is an avowed heretic), but it is clearly highly irregular and scandalous, in a way that I'm sure many RCs can relate to.

Lord have mercy on us. That's the only such thing I've seen, actually, but that's enough for one lifetime.

Did you comment on the private YIM thread? I can't remember if you are in the private section.

I think anyone taking RCs to task for liturgical irregularities should at least let the Orthodox know what they think about what was discussed there.

No. I try to stay away from those threads. I already know that there are liturgical irregularities in the Orthodox Church

what do you have in mind?

I don't want to post the link (because it greatly infuriates me, and we're in the fast time already, when I should be trying to control such things), but the heretic Vassula Ryden (one of many new age pseudo-prophets spreading private revelations) somehow managed to get into a Coptic Church a few years ago and brought a bunch of her sadly deceived followers with her for some kind of "interfaith" whatever (with Buddhist monks or something, dancing around and holding hands and all kinds of stupidity). This might not actually fall under liturgical abuse, as it wasn't during a liturgy proper, but it is the kind of thing I had in mind, in terms of what is allowed (shamefully!) to go on in our churches when people are perhaps not properly informed about what/who they're accepting. It's not really on the level of the RC mass that has been posted here (as it was not directly participated in by Coptic bishops, as far as I can tell; though HH Pope Shenouda was seated at the beginning of the clip I saw and did receive her for some kind of blessing! I wonder if he knew who she was/that she is an avowed heretic), but it is clearly highly irregular and scandalous, in a way that I'm sure many RCs can relate to.

Lord have mercy on us. That's the only such thing I've seen, actually, but that's enough for one lifetime.

Pope Theodore II (the EO) had to get the EP in on the act of anathematizing Vassula, to make sure in and out of Egypt she is exposed. I don't know if HH Pope Shenouda knew of the problems with her before that.

Part of the issue was that Vassula has been communing with the Vatican for some time, and hence the Orthodox position was that she was the Vatican's problem.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Yes, I am almost certain that the video I have seen is from well before her official anathematization (if I'm understanding her Wikipedia page correctly, that only occurred in 2011), as it was posted back in 2008. How much the COC would have been aware of her before this time is not clear. It's odd that she should be communing with the Vatican at all, seeing as how they issued official guidelines as far back as 1995 that her writings and views should not be spread in any diocese. I guess they changed their mind? (Even though that decision was declared to still be in effect in 2007.)

Do you know what the Magisterium is? Your use of the word suggests that you do not.

Your suggestion that I don't only indicates your discomfiture that I do.

You only further prove in this post that you don't understand what it is.

and you only further prove in this post that a useless concept is what it is.

How so? All Magisterium means is the teaching authority of the Church. Eastern Orthodoxy believes that the Church has the authority to teach, does it not? The Ecumenical Councils were examples of the Magisterium of the Church teaching authoritatively.

I would say that if there were such a Divine Liturgy, that the Orthodox bishops would deal with it swiftly, but I feel that the Faithful would be even swifter in putting a stop to it. Not the dumb sheep that your "magisterium" claims to shepherd.

Do you know what the Magisterium is? Your use of the word suggests that you do not.

Your suggestion that I don't only indicates your discomfiture that I do.

You only further prove in this post that you don't understand what it is.

and you only further prove in this post that a useless concept is what it is.

How so? All Magisterium means is the teaching authority of the Church. Eastern Orthodoxy believes that the Church has the authority to teach, does it not? The Ecumenical Councils were examples of the Magisterium of the Church teaching authoritatively.

I would say that if there were such a Divine Liturgy, that the Orthodox bishops would deal with it swiftly, but I feel that the Faithful would be even swifter in putting a stop to it. Not the dumb sheep that your "magisterium" claims to shepherd.

That's really insulting to call everyone in our Church "dumb sheep."

Take it up with your "magisterium."

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Can we say with certainty that no one was disciplined or admonished after that incident? Are you an authority on what happened that day at the liturgy in that video?

To the best of my knowledge no one was disciplined for the monstrous liturgy depicted in the video linked by Griego. In fact the more recent (both in 2011 and 2012) LA Religious Education Congress liturgies have continued to be celebrated in the same manner as the one shown in video (i.e., the 2010 liturgy). Morever, in the 2011 and 2012 liturgies both Cardinal Mahony, the former Archbishop of Los Angeles, and Archbishop Gomez, the current Archbishop of Los Angeles, participated in the various liturgical celebrations.

« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 07:01:44 AM by Apotheoun »

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"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality." St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."St. Theodore Studite

As a cradle Catholic, all I could do was laugh when I watched that video. It's too far gone. What Vatican II hath wrought. It isn't a guitar mass. It's a deacon ska dancing with the Gospel. Luckily it was only a few YouTube clicks from there to the awesome grandeur and beauty of Otto von Habsburg's requiem mass. It is moments like that Habsburg requiem that make me sad to leave the RCC, but the truth of Orthodoxy is worth it. There is, in any case, nothing to stop me from attending Catholic mass if I feel the desire.

As a cradle Catholic, all I could do was laugh when I watched that video. It's too far gone. What Vatican II hath wrought. It isn't a guitar mass. It's a deacon ska dancing with the Gospel. Luckily it was only a few YouTube clicks from there to the awesome grandeur and beauty of Otto von Habsburg's requiem mass. It is moments like that Habsburg requiem that make me sad to leave the RCC, but the truth of Orthodoxy is worth it. There is, in any case, nothing to stop me from attending Catholic mass if I feel the desire.

Is there a Western Rite Orthodox parish close by?

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That is the land of lost content, I see it shining plain, The happy highways where I went And cannot come again.-A.E. Housman

As a cradle Catholic, all I could do was laugh when I watched that video. It's too far gone. What Vatican II hath wrought. It isn't a guitar mass. It's a deacon ska dancing with the Gospel. Luckily it was only a few YouTube clicks from there to the awesome grandeur and beauty of Otto von Habsburg's requiem mass. It is moments like that Habsburg requiem that make me sad to leave the RCC, but the truth of Orthodoxy is worth it. There is, in any case, nothing to stop me from attending Catholic mass if I feel the desire.

Is there a Western Rite Orthodox parish close by?

Strangely enough, even living in a big city like Seattle, the closest Western Rite parish is 4-5 hours away across the Cascades and on the other side of the state I may check one out when I am home in Cincinnati at Christmas--I gather that one has recently opened there.

There is, in any case, nothing to stop me from attending Catholic mass if I feel the desire.

That's debatable. I for one would be one to say that there's a lot to stop from attending non-Orthodox mass without some specific serious reason.

I don't understand what you are saying. Are you saying I shouldn't skip the divine liturgy for a Catholic mass? I'm not talking about going every week or even every month. And I'm certainly not talking about communing in an RC church. Or are you saying I should be careful about apostasizing from the RCC? I don't get it.

There is, in any case, nothing to stop me from attending Catholic mass if I feel the desire.

That's debatable. I for one would be one to say that there's a lot to stop from attending non-Orthodox mass without some specific serious reason.

I don't understand what you are saying. Are you saying I shouldn't skip the divine liturgy for a Catholic mass? I'm not talking about going every week or even every month. And I'm certainly not talking about communing in an RC church. Or are you saying I should be careful about apostasizing from the RCC? I don't get it.

I'm saying that the Orthodox should generally refrain from attending non-Orthodox services. Practical situations are up to individual and his/her priest though but that's what I believe to be the general rule.

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But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.Leviticus 19:34

I'm saying that the Orthodox should generally refrain from attending non-Orthodox services. Practical situations are up to individual and his/her priest though but that's what I believe to be the general rule.

I've never heard that. So long as you aren't taking time away from Orthodoxy or communing somewhere you shouldn't, I don't know what the harm would be.

I'm saying that the Orthodox should generally refrain from attending non-Orthodox services. Practical situations are up to individual and his/her priest though but that's what I believe to be the general rule.

I've never heard that. So long as you aren't taking time away from Orthodoxy or communing somewhere you shouldn't, I don't know what the harm would be.

izrima, Alpo is right. I've been Orthodox far longer than many on this forum have been alive, and I've yet to encounter a priest who would disagree with the advice Alpo has given.

I'm saying that the Orthodox should generally refrain from attending non-Orthodox services. Practical situations are up to individual and his/her priest though but that's what I believe to be the general rule.

I've never heard that. So long as you aren't taking time away from Orthodoxy or communing somewhere you shouldn't, I don't know what the harm would be.

What LBK and Alpo both said is true.

I often wish I could also attend a local RC parish during the week as well as my EO parish on Sundays, but I realize it would 1) be unfaithful to my Church and her canons, and 2) would encourage a confused mixed-spirituality and ecumenism in myself.

I know the Coptic Orthodox still have this policy. No RC masses or Protestant gatherings for us. Of course that's how it should be, and the reality on the ground is often different, but just the same there are many who are serious about following it (and those that aren't generally don't know their faith well enough to realize that it is wrong and not encouraged). I was even told before I got baptized that I should not visit the local OCA church back home, even though plenty of OO attend there (there's no OO church in the area) and I've been there plenty of times in the past.

I'm saying that the Orthodox should generally refrain from attending non-Orthodox services. Practical situations are up to individual and his/her priest though but that's what I believe to be the general rule.

I've never heard that. So long as you aren't taking time away from Orthodoxy or communing somewhere you shouldn't, I don't know what the harm would be.

What LBK and Alpo both said is true.

I often wish I could also attend a local RC parish during the week as well as my EO parish on Sundays, but I realize it would 1) be unfaithful to my Church and her canons, and 2) would encourage a confused mixed-spirituality and ecumenism in myself.

Just move to an area where the Carpatho -russian Orthodox diocese has a parish that does daily liturgy and you won't have that problem. Yes some do have daily liturgy and I wish I lived closer to one that does and I'd go a few times a week.

Just move to an area where the Carpatho -russian Orthodox diocese has a parish that does daily liturgy and you won't have that problem. Yes some do have daily liturgy and I wish I lived closer to one that does and I'd go a few times a week.

That would be pretty nice, but my particular issue is distance. I can only make it to my parish once a week whereas there are several RC parishes where I live.

Just move to an area where the Carpatho -russian Orthodox diocese has a parish that does daily liturgy and you won't have that problem. Yes some do have daily liturgy and I wish I lived closer to one that does and I'd go a few times a week.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Why does everyone insist on daily Liturgies. Priests would like to have sex too.

That's why the only place I've seen daily DL are monasteries.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Isn't daily DLs encouraged in Cathedral parishes? I know at my UGCC parish (which is the Cathedral) we faithfully adhere to that tradition (except Mondays, we give the priest a break, unless it is a Feast Day or Bright Monday). But even though it is just the nuns and one or two other faithful attendee, there is usually Divine Liturgy Tuesdays-Saturdays.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

I've heard before that there are many churches in Russia and Greece that hold a daily Divine Liturgy. But that's second hand information, and I guess it could still be an innovation.

Even if it is innovated, though, what's wrong with innovated traditions and pious customs that help to root you in the faith? It's not innovated theology.

Good point.

I remember an Orthodox priest telling me that as long as there are 2 or more people present, there's no reason *not* to celebrate a DL every day if the priest is willing and able to do so, that there's nothing to forbid it.

I remember an Orthodox priest telling me that as long as there are 2 or more people present, there's no reason *not* to celebrate a DL every day if the priest is willing and able to do so, that there's nothing to forbid it.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

I remember an Orthodox priest telling me that as long as there are 2 or more people present, there's no reason *not* to celebrate a DL every day if the priest is willing and able to do so, that there's nothing to forbid it.

Great Lent?

Yes, that would be an exception. And the reason for the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts. Let us know if you can think of other exceptions.

I remember an Orthodox priest telling me that as long as there are 2 or more people present, there's no reason *not* to celebrate a DL every day if the priest is willing and able to do so, that there's nothing to forbid it.

Great Lent?

Yes, that would be an exception. And the reason for the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts. Let us know if you can think of other exceptions.

Btw, the Coptic Orthodox do not have that restriction, and IIRC have DL every day during Lent.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

I'm saying that the Orthodox should generally refrain from attending non-Orthodox services. Practical situations are up to individual and his/her priest though but that's what I believe to be the general rule.

I've never heard that. So long as you aren't taking time away from Orthodoxy or communing somewhere you shouldn't, I don't know what the harm would be.

FWIW, I've been on this forum for 6 years now and I'm still not convinced. (Not that that's the only reason I don't become Orthodox.)

I remember an Orthodox priest telling me that as long as there are 2 or more people present, there's no reason *not* to celebrate a DL every day if the priest is willing and able to do so, that there's nothing to forbid it.

Great Lent?

Yes, that would be an exception. And the reason for the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts. Let us know if you can think of other exceptions.

Btw, the Coptic Orthodox do not have that restriction, and IIRC have DL every day during Lent.

Interesting! I had no idea. Thanks for that info. Would I be correct, then, in thinking that if that is the case there's no particular theological or canonical restriction, rather that it is a matter of praxis?

Your "magisterium" makes grandiose claims that its behavior never matches.

You cannot blame the Magisterium for the sins and mistakes of individual Catholics. Our Church teaches one thing, and people often fail to live up to the teaching because we are all sinners.

Hmmm ... sounds a lot like the early church to me.

A hospital for sinners.

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.