How Ragnarok Could Make Sense In Continuity

Summary:

Turns out we totally misinterpreted that bit at the end of TDW.

If you're pro-Odin don't read this.

Notes:

I'm trying to hear as little as possible about Thor 3, which is guaranteed to be horrible. However, I have heard that after spending three movies pulling out all the stops to prove that Loki is the noblest hero who has ever appeared on the screen, they inexplicably have him acting like a villain all of a sudden.

Same in Infinity War (which I also am trying not to hear about, I don't want to know anything else about what Marvel is doing to Loki).

Chapter Text

Odin slumped sulking on his throne, listening to his disobedient son telling him of his successful completion of Bor’s genocide of the Dark Elves, and of the long overdue death of the Jotun cuckoo.

For the first time, it occurred to Odin that there was a drawback to Loki’s death: Odin could no longer blame things on him. His own failed schemes, Thor’s pathetic failures—Loki had been such a useful scapegoat.

Odin wearily pardoned Thor instead of banishing or executing him for committing treason. He would be out of pawns to play if he followed through on the laws he himself had made.

Then as Thor thanked him and turned to leave, inspiration struck. A way to continue blaming Loki.

Odin did not use his power of casting illusions as often as Loki had, but he could do it, of course. It was basic sorcery. Testing, he cast an illusion of his kidnapped Jotun prince over himself and looked down at the result.

Excellent. He then spoke aloud, experimentally, to see if he could also feign Loki’s voice.

“Oh, no,” he murmured. “Thank you.”

The sound was perfect. Excited plans ran through Odin’s mind. He would commence at once on evil and mayhem beyond even his usual deeds, and when—if—he was called to account for it, he would cast an illusion over himself so that he appeared to be Loki. Then Loki would take the blame and Thor would run amok through the Nine Realms seeking him, while Odin continued to reign in Asgard and escaped retribution yet again.

Chapter 2: How Loki's Association With En Dwi Ghastly Could Make Sense In Continuity

Summary:

Despite my efforts I found out what happened in this movie. It was even worse than I expected, which is saying something. So here's how it could make sense.

Chapter Text

Mere weeks after Loki’s death, Odin found that Asgard was completely falling apart. For the past millennium Loki had done most of the actual work of ruling Asgard, such as maintaining Asgard’s magic, making treaties, running the day to day business of the palace, and so on. After his attempted suicide, Frigga had taken over most of these duties. Now that both of them were dead, everything basically collapsed and there was no food or anything in the palace and everyone who worked there just wandered off and Odin was stuck wandering the Nine Realms in search of shelter.

Odin did still have the magic trick of casting an illusion to make himself look like Loki, and so, remembering the way a certain sleazy criminal had leered at Loki, Odin cast the illusion and went to En Dwi Gast’s orgy satellite. It meant Odin had to endure Gast’s very kinky desires, which was horrible given how repulsive and unskilled and unhygienic Gast was, but Odin literally could not find any other way to put a roof over his head because he is that incompetent.

One day Odin’s illusion faltered and Gast discovered that instead of banging the exquisite younger prince of Asgard, he had been sticking it into a wrinkled old man. He was so horrified that he didn’t get another erection for five hundred years.

Then Thor showed up wanting Loki's help. As usual, he requested it by brutally torturing the man he believed was Loki. Convulsing with electricity, Odin reflected that maybe, just maybe, teaching Thor that torture was noble and effective might not have been the best decision.

Odin gave in, but since he wasn't actually Loki his incompetence meant that Thor's mission failed and everybody concerned died.

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I'm hoping that Ragnorak won't be as bad as we fear. Taika Waititi directed the well-received 'The Hunt for the Wilderpeople' in addition to 'What We Do in the Shadows'. After all, it's par for the course for vampire movies to suck. 'Only Lovers Left Alive' is the rare exception.

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Interesting theory! I could totally see that happening, and then Odin screws up too bad, leaves and goes to Midgard to hide like a bitch, and that's what Loki does take over or comes back...or something. So many theories, not enough time. ;D

I don't think Loki's the villain either way, never did-even in Avengers.
If fact, if not for Loki, Thor would have made it nowhere and gotten him and Jane killed.
His plan would have failed. Utterly and horribly.

He promised Loki vengeance and then the cell once it was all said and done.
(I also don't think Loki's death was an illusion. I have a couple theories, but yeah-that shit was real from the look on his face alone.)
So even if Loki did manage to take Odin's place, I don't really blame him.
Why not?
Thor doesn't want it, Odin sucks. Let someone who wants it and knows what they are doing have it.

Marvel better not fuck that shit up or I'm going to be one pissed off bitch! xD

Sorry, I get carried away. :P

Last Edited Tue20Jun201701:09AMEDT

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When they filmed Loki's death in TDW, it was supposed to be for real. Then Tom's appearance at SDCC got such a reaction that they realized they could squeeze more money out of him, so they threw together that utterly illogical "survival" twist. Ugh.

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Thank god for Tom and the fact he made Loki's character so amazing, that we all love him. And you know Marvel for unintentionally making us love him more by pissing all over him! I hate Marvel even more now....

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I take courage from the fact that Tom Hiddleston's contract with Marvel only has two more movies in it; 'Infinity Wars' should use them both up. After experiencing Taika Waititi's "direction", I don't think TH is too likely to want to re-up.

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Generally I'm with you in all the Odin bashing, but this is a bit too much, as in, unrealistic. Villains never see themselves as villains, so I doubt that Odin would think that way. "He would commence at once on evil and mayhem..." - what he'd think would probably be more along the lines of "I know what's best for everyone". Also, he's the ruler of the nine realms - and one who rules by force at that. He doesn't need Loki as his scapegoat - firstly, because he wouldn't think of himself as being in the wrong, and secondly, he'd think he'd just crush anyone who didn't agree with his "benevolent" policies. "However, I have heard that after spending three movies pulling out all the stops to prove that Loki is the noblest hero who has ever appeared on the screen, they inexplicably have him acting like a villain all of a sudden."There's a total of 2 scenes with Loki in the Ragnarock teaser trailer, one where he's walking through a fight scene playing with his knives (unlikely in a real fight), and the other where he's sitting on a coach. Nothing malevolent about him. I sincerely hope that Hela's his daughter in this, though, that they'd team up and kick some ass. I didn't get the post-credits scene in Doctor Strange (the one about Loki) AT ALL. It doesn't seem to fit into the Ragnarock's universe either...

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Not true. It's popular among fiction writers to portray villains who see themselves as heroes, but in real life, a lot of villains know perfectly well that they're villains, as Odin clearly does. (Others simply lack any internalized moral sense at all and think those who have one are suckers.) I believe this myth, that villains "never" see themselves as villains, was created by bad people in the hopes of disarming those who would stop them.

I haven't actually seen the Ragnarok trailer, and don't plan to. I just heard stuff implying that they finally got around to having him do bad stuff. Ugh, I don't want to know. I won't watch it unless Thor either dies in great pain or else gets down on his worthless knees to beg for Loki's forgiveness, and I doubt Marvel will be that kind to us.

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I actually liked the trailer, a lot. Compared to Spiderman's, it wasn't too spoiler-y (and boy are Spiderman's trailers full of spoilers!), though of course I'm surprised to see that it's a "teaser" trailer - makes me wonder what the "trailer" trailer will look like. I thought it was very exiting. I wasn't expecting to see Hela (and please please let Loki get a real family - but no, Marvel won't be that kind), and Cate Blanchett as Hela - wow, I didn't even recognize her at first. She's so hot there! And I had to look up her age after that - she doesn't look it. Seriously, I recommend watching the trailer. As far as trailers go, this one is somewhere on top.

Also, I think Odin is a sociopath - the whole point there is lack of empathy, so he wouldn't know that what he was doing was wrong. Thor, on the other hand... I mean, what would you expect from a guy who grew up like this? It's like Milgram's experiments, when people knew what they were doing was wrong, and still bulked unter the pressure of the perceived authority figures.

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I'm sorry you feel so deeply about it. I don't even know what else to say. Thor is made prisoner there and his hammer is destroyed (in a manner that I immensely enjoyed), if that's any consolation. Although he'll probably get it back by the end of the movie, who knows.

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minime
on Chapter 1
Mon17Jul201712:36AMEDT

not sure mjonir will be back at least not in ragnarok. from what I heard from IW trailer, thor suddenly falls on the windshield of gog team and rocket tells quill to wipe it out then a concious (after getting treatment I guess) asks "who the hell are yo?!" then heads for earth. Thanos at some point had his head in his hand(now he might got a taste what loki went through in the void). looks like bad news for thor everywhere. :/ I don't feel happy cause I wouldn't anyone going through that. Not everyone is Loki enough to handle it. I think this trailer just confirms that Loki never wanted to take over earth.

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Re Odin being a sociopath: You might recall I wrote a ficlet about the idea that Asgardians might be a psychopathic species. http://archiveofourown.org/works/2316206/chapters/5708996 Odin is so gleeful about the pain he causes, like a serial killer or a torturer in some dictatorial regime, he's clearly embraced his own evil.

Thor is that rare thing, a villain who believes himself to be a hero, but that's because he was, as you say, raised by Odin, and also because he's staggeringly dumb.

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"and also because he's staggeringly dumb." I seriously laughed out loud at that.
Yep, I remember. It was pretty cool, and also very sad, especially when Loki thinks of Frigga and how grateful he is that at least his mother did not come from this species.
I dunno, you think Hitler thought himself evil?

I've recently stumbled upon the memoires of a head of one of the concentration camps (I'm really bad with names), and what he kept saying there was "I was doing my job and trying to be as efficient as possible. I was also trying to spare my subordinates the horror of having to kill all those Jews by hand, because many dealt badly with it". And it was written after the Nurmberger tribunal, so I don't think he was trying for a not-guilty plea. My question is, though: is there really a universal set of morals, and can the people who follow the rules be retroactively persecuted for their crimes? The answer seems an obvious one in the case of WWII, but the thought occurred to me while I was reading The Handmaid's tale, and the people in question were the doctors who used to carry out abortions.

Last Edited Tue20Jun201706:14PMEDT

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Yes, I do. I've read a fair amount about various dictators, including him, and they've embraced evil in a way most people can barely try to imagine, which is why we often conclude either that they thought that torturing children to death was somehow "right" or that they were insane. Most people will lie to themselves to justify it when they do wrong things, but a thankfully small number don't feel the need to do that.

Serial killers too. You think Ted Bundy thought he was doing something good when he raped, tortured and murdered women? Or child molesters; some of them convince themselves that children should get to enjoy sex, but others are incredibly brutal and there's no way they can tell themselves that what they're doing isn't cruel. Or the people who worked in concentration camps. Inquisitorial torturers.

Yeah, they knew they were evil. It's hard for you and I, who have moral senses, to imagine someone so utterly opposite from ourselves, but they exist.

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I think child molesters are just sick people. Like schizophrenics. Which is why in some countries they are offered the option of chemical castration, as opposed to prison. But there are plenty of child abusers, including in many cases the child's parents. These people, I have no excuse for. And not only child abusers. Just any dependents, really. People who won't be able to abuse back. And I'm not so sure about my moral senses either. Thank God I've never been in a situation when they would have to be tested. And I'm not talking about Sophie's choice either. I don't know if you've seen Jupiter Ascending - human-aliens could live forever by constantly taking regerative serums - it took 100 humans to make one serum. They 'seeded' planets with human DNA to get the 'ingridients' later. I don't know if I'd buy something like that given the choice. Maybe I would, who knows. Would I think myself evil then? Probably not. Maybe I'd think something along the lines of "those humans were going to die anyway". But in much the same manner people buy blood diamonds now, don't they?

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I loved Jupiter Ascending! I imagine that they must have libraries full of philosophers twisting themselves into pretzels to justify their actions. And I think Balem went insane and was so cruel because he had a strong moral sense but didn't listen to it - because his mother, who he loved, taught him to, and then when she began to change her mind it must have been such a betrayal to him.

The blood diamonds are a little different: a lot of people aren't aware (though fewer now that it's a hot issue) of what goes on in the diamond trade, whereas the people in JA knew they were killing people to live. But anyway, some people do need to lie to themselves and believe that what they're doing is somehow "okay". But I think TDW made it pretty clear that Odin and Thor's vile friends aren't among them.

The Dark Elves, otoh, were just trying to stay alive, and also kill the people who had murdered the rest of their people. Now *that* is a set of villains who can genuinely think they're doing the right thing - well, really, they are. I'd say our first duty is to keep our own species alive. And killing Asgardians, who the Dark Elves know firsthand to be bloody murderers, is also a good thing. See, Marvel, you can do it!

Thanks for all your thoughtful comments! I'm not sure I have more to add, but a while back I did write a meta on this subject, if you're interested: http://mosellegreen.tumblr.com/post/137257675329/villains-dont-believe-theyre-the-heroes

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I also liked JA. As a movie, it was quite enjoyable, I don't get why almost everyone thought it was stupid. But then again, I thought that Thor the DW was pretty well done too. As they say in the honest trailers, "pleasantly kill two hours of your time". What I didn't like was the way Loki was treated, obviously. Also, Loki's own stupidity. "You might want to take the stairs to your left", my behind. What he should have done - upon hearing the commotion, which he clearly HAD heard - was cast an illusion of an inconspicuous bunch of soldiers upon himself, get broken out by the monster, go find his mother (because I think Loki would want to find her and protect her), save Frigga, snatch Aether-infected Jane for himself, turn her into stone, compress that stone to a small size - woala, Aether is now an infinity stone! And change reality as he pleases. Get a real family, probably. I actually started writing a fic to that effect, but I'm crap at finishing things. Like, all of them. Thanks for the link. I actually find out a lot from your works. I legitimately used to think that solitary confinement was the best thing that could happen to an inmate, for instance. I had no idea it was torture until I discovered the info through you.

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As for universal morality, well, that's a bigger question than I can handle. A few things are pretty clear. Like, you know, torture.

I don't know which concentration camp person you're talking about, and I don't doubt that some of them were conflicted over it, but something of that magnitude wasn't done by a whole bunch of people who felt guilty over it. Besides, well, do you think he's going to admit it if he enjoyed his work? I'm reminded of a tv thing I once saw about a police sting operation to catch pedophiles. At first, the child molester was smirking and bragging about how many kids he'd raped. Then the cops came in and arrested him, and he started weeping and talking about how guilty he felt.

And I've personally seen people enjoying hurting others. Seen the smirks on their faces as they saw their victim's expressions, heard their cries. Minor hurts, to be sure, like playground bullying, but if those people were allowed to work in a concentration camp or torture heretics or something... well. Basically if I became a brutal dictator tomorrow, I know some people I could recruit to enforce my regime.

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Re: "... I didn't get the post-credits scene in Doctor Strange (the one about Loki) AT ALL...."

I think it's based on the premise that as far as Strange knows, Loki was seriously trying to conquer the world in 'The Avengers'. Also that Strange doesn't know about Loki's Marvel-death in TDW, since Thor didn't bother to publicize how Loki heroically died saving the universe.

Mind you, anyone with a brain should realize that Loki wasn't playing to win during his "invasion". Even some fans who view Loki as a villain realize that, though they usually explain it as Loki wanting to get taken back to Asgard to steal the Infinity Gauntlet, hide from Thanos's wrath, or pursue some other long-term nefarious scheme. Since Stephen Strange is supposed to be a genius, one can only conclude that he didn't bother thinking about the issue.

I haven't seen the Dr. Strange movie, but based on the Cinema Sins take, Strange started out as an obnoxious entitled asshole, and after many tribulations and mystic experiences, ends up as a slightly-more-personable entitled asshole. He started out as a wealthy, acclaimed surgeon... and ended up as a wealthy, uber-powerful sorcerer.

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So I hear there's this fanvid coming up that's going to be horrible yet so influential it will be shown in theatres. I might see it so I can appreciate the AO3 backlash more. There will be much screaming and gnashing of teeth.

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minime
on Chapter 1
Mon17Jul201712:12AMEDT

huh lol I've never thought it like that but of course why not? It would be a nice twist. Though what I heard from tweets- in infinity war Loki will be handing thanos tesseract or so it seems while looking grime and dirty. Thanos at some point had thor'd head in his hand. hmmmmThat guy is so big he crushed a planet by his own hands and threw it to the avengers.

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I came here from your Tumblr site: http://mosellegreen.tumblr.com/post/168871751694/mosellegreen-also-i-used-to-be-indifferent-to

Now I want a continuation fic to this in which Loki is brought back by the Norns for the purpose of unmasking and killing Odin-- and to save the universe from Thanos, of course. You can have Loki kill the Grandmaster, too! Bonus points if Thor and the Avengers are schooled by Loki in "How to tell a mind control victim from a supervillain".

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It occurred to me later that this would also work with a "Loki was revived by the seidr released when all Thanos's and Odin's Mind-control broke at his death, and Loki walked off to save the universe as a free agent" scenario. After all, Loki wasn't important enough to Odin to keep watching his dead body from Hlidskjalf after Thor tromped off with his main squeeze.

It'd be delightful if Stephen Strange was working with Loki all along, and thus knew it was really Odin that he allowed to "keep falling for 30 minutes". Then when Odin conjures his illusion-Odin to fake his own death for Thor's benefit, Loki and Strange show up together to unmask Odin at call him on his bullshit. And after all the ugly truth has been revealed, Loki impishly informs Odin that the whole thing has been broadcast over Asgard's state television system, so Odin can't walk it back for his public.

Though if the Norns are responsible for bringing Loki back, you could have them sentence Odin to having the yak wig hair for the rest of his life as punishment for his attempted defamation of Loki's character. ;-D

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Now, now... remember that nothing in 'Ragnarok' is canon. Taika Waititi publicly stated that he was ignoring previously-established canon. The way I figure it, this means that 'Ragnarok' took place in an alternate MCUverse, so we don't have to recognize anything in it which contradicts previously-established characterization and/or just common sense. See? That feels better, doesn't it? ;-D

On a side note, I don't understand why critics are giving 'Ragnarok' so much better reviews than 'Justice League'. For some reason the logic gaps in JL are held against it, while the discontinuities in 'Ragnarok' are hand-waved off. It's a strange double standard. When it comes to viewership-- as opposed to Official Reviews-- JL seems to be doing quite respectably at the box office. It's not made as much money as TR, but it also hasn't been out as long. Yet all the the pundits are declaring JL a failure and TR a major success. It makes me wonder if Russian hackers are involved.

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the movie makes no sense in continuity, of course, because both Loki AND Thor are nothing like their former selves from the previous installments. Thor is still abusive, but somehow capable of at least some planning.

And since you found out what happened, I'm wondering what's your stance on Loki & Hela's relationship. I mean, I suppose it makes little sense for him to join her, since he must have an obvious dislike for tyrants, but I think it makes little sense for him to automatically kind of side with Thor when she appears, too. I mean, a child who has been used as long as convenient and then banished? Seems like a kindred spirit.

Also, just minutes before their meeting Thor almost killed him with a hammer and made fun of him for dressing like a woman ("a witch" - aaaand the world ergi immediately spring to mind). And like literally seconds before she appears Thor blames Loki for Odin's death and looks ready to kill him (and I think he might have).

P.S. I hate it that Dr. Strange is somehow stronger than Loki. Why, God, why.

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Well, yeah. I loved how Strange defeated the villain through trolling basically, instead of becoming a Marty Sue. But they turned him into a Marty Sue here apparently, so long-term no win. How is Thanos a threat again? Why wouldn't Strange just portal him to the other end of the universe?

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Yeah, I shoulda known they'd fall into that trap. Like, this movie claimed Loki can turn into a snake, when there's been plenty of times that turning into a snake or something else would have been useful for him and he didn't. They don't think things through.

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Could you point me towards the moment the movie claimed this? I don't remember it at all.

You know what I also hated? The way they portrayed Loki being a total hedonist in the beginning, with a statue and a play dedicated to him to boot (although I have to admit, Matt Damon appearing for this cameo was an unexpected delight). That's so not what he is about, and not once did he try to do that in the first movie when he came into power. Also, I believe he still hates the frost giant part of himself and so it definitely wouldn't have featured in a play he wrote.

P.S. I have to admit, I actually enjoyed the movie a lot, except for the parts with Loki. Because it wasn't really the Loki we know and love there. I thought the Hulk was great, and Hela, in general, was also a delight. Her origin story made a lot of sense, actually, and fit well into the continuity.

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have you seen what we do in the shadows? I thought it was actually hillarious. I have to disagree with you regarding the director.I think the studio is to blame. Most likely they had this vision that it should be a comedy and hired a director who did just that. I think he did a decent job on that front. The problem is, this movie is like in a parallel universe, as if all the previous Thor movies happened differently. And for this reason, everyone feels like an idiot, actually. Including Hela, Surtur, Loki, etc. i mean, the Thor that we know and don't love would have never tried the "my brother needs help" trick. Because he had his hammer.

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I tried to watch WWDITS. I was only able to stand five minutes of it, it was horrible IMO. And Waititi has said a lot of vile things in interviews. Plus even if they forced him to film that shitty script, there's a lot of decisions he could have made that would have made it slightly less disgusting. I hate Marvel so so much.

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Nine
on Chapter 2
Tue20Nov201811:41PMEST

I'm surprised anyone loved Doctor Strange or thought he wasn't a Gary Stu in the film. He's the thousandth incarnation of a white dude who goes to the ~mystical Orient~ to get superpowers and ends up being better at it than the natives themselves; he never grows or changes as a person; and he's been getting gifts and special magical items left and right. He also only studies and trains for a few months, when allegedly it takes decades to develop that level of magical skill. So... of course he defeats Loki; it's yet another example of making completely implausible victories for Strange where he's a young upstart who somehow defeats people who've been immersed in the culture and training for significantly longer.

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lol, this is priceless gold! I'm glad I'm not the only one who found Ragnarok to be one of the worst films ever. I still can't get over how Marvel completely squandered and ruined their best character. It borders on tragic.

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Your fanfiction is a salty comeback that my sister and I needed. We first found you with "If Thor didn't have a plot shield", and it was utterly magneficent. At some points, mind blowing even.

Personally, we think that what happens in first two Thor movies may seem overly dramatic because the audience is never presented with the level of gravity Asgard deals with. Meaning, if your Realm deals with, wdk, black holes on yearly basis, basically humans with their little countries and little quarrels, being insignificant, soft, and weak, truly might pass as petty. Asgard simply should've operated on the whole another level: Avengers level — countries, Asgard level — nebulae, peoples, aiding to basic forces shaping the universe as it is.

As for Ragnarök… it was the level of disgrace we've never seen in our lives. Like somehow somebody came to conclusion that just if Thor treated Loki with not a glimpse of respect, like he did in first Thor movie, that will somehow lead to Loki re-opening his heart to Thor. And Frostmaster? Sugar-daddy? To LOKI? GRANDMASTER? It's so wrong on so many levels.

Also nothing in this movie pays off. Loki can turn into snake? So is he, like, the Jörmungandr by whose hand Thor is prophesized to fall? Valkyrie fought Hela? At least get some advice. Guns on her ship that could match Hela's blades? Naaaah. Grandmaster is a telepath? Everyone knows there's nothing a telepath can do! Melt-stick? Nah, not a formidable weapon. Casket in Vault? No way Hela can be locked into ice! Gungnir can open Bifröst no less than Heimdall's sword? Who cares! For whatever reason Grandmaster is gay for Loki? How does this characterises him or Loki? Or maybe it helps the plot? Simplifies narrative? Nope.

We have an idea why Loki couldn't use his magic on Sakaar — but then again, he casted illusions. And for some reason he didn't disguise himself and Thor as Grandmaster and Topaz to freely enter hangar, thus script forced him to perform Get Help for sheer laughs and nothing more.

We're gonna throw in some fanfiction of our own regarding the matter.

FYI: maaaaaybe Infinity War will make up at least for some wrongs done to Loki. He's probably gonna die in the beginning, but we have this idea that Thor will finally find out that Loki acted as Agent of Asgard while in New York. We're seeing the movie on Thursday, wanna know what it did to Loki?