java3d also wraps opengl,is there any overlap between them,and if so,what is the difference between them. Because the java3d is surported by sun ,and can be a standard which will give java3d a promise future.And how LWJGL positions itself in the java opengl world?

From what I've seen, Java3D is bloated and obtuse. I think they also use other stuff besides OpenGL? Someone correct me on that one if I'm wrong.

LWJGL is just a lightweight wrapper around opengl and not much more.

Please excuse any wrong terminology here.

I like LWJGL, I just suck and don't know what I'm doing on the rendering side. The last few days of experimentation proves that much. I have a super-fast Java2D engine I wrote though, for all the good it does me.

Nope. A wrapper is just a thin layer ontop of an existing system. While J3d uses openGL (or DirectX) theres no way to call GL commands directly. GL is an immediate mode API - much like j2d, you say 'draw this here' and it does. J3d requires you to build a scenegraph of your world, and then you leave all the lowlevel rendering details up to it (hopefully leaving it to handle the low level optimisations as it goes about it, how this works in practice is debatable).

Nope. Java3D contains a wrapper of a renderer. Either OpenGL or Direct3D. So the wrapper is one part of it and available as Java3Ds immediate mode. It does not reflect each OpenGL call as a pure OGL wrapper does, but is tailored to be renderer independent and focused on the needs of the scenegraph engine.

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And it's slower

... which is not proven yet, for no comparable engine for LWJGL exists. The scenegraph prototype for LWJGL is WAY slower than Java3D.

Just personal experience. The last time I tried to use java3d was not pretty, I pretty much hated it.

But we all know how much I know about shit.

As far as LWJGL being more then opengl etc I guess I was just assuming that part, it was late and I was just thinking of the graphics portion. Let's say I just woke up and I'm still tired.

:/

Edit: please excuse me if i've been really pissy on here lately. My last project really didn't work out how I wanted and I made the decision to move to opengl and have to deal with alot harder stuff (god I just want to make a game!). Well, I guess i'm not exactly being a very graceful learner I feel like I haven't coded a day in my life all over again.

[size=2]| | Because Java3d is surported by Sun ,| and can be a standard | it will give java3d a promising future.|| And how does LWJGL position itself in the java opengl world ?|| [ edited -- PF ] [/size]

Sun's support is important, I agree with you there.

Sun does support Java3d, I'm not sure but I think Sun is a larger organization and has written more software than the little ---- LWJGL group.

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[size=2]|| From what I've seen, Java3D is bloated and obtuse.|| I think they also use other stuff besides OpenGL? ...|| Please excuse any wrong terminology here. || I like LWJGL, I just suck and don't know what I'm doing | on the rendering side. || The last few days of experimentation proves that much. || I have a super-fast Java2D engine I wrote though, | for all the good it does me. || http://java-game-lib.sourceforge.net|| That page can explain pretty well it's uses/intents/purposes/whatever.| [/size]

People have created some good 3d visualization projects with Java3d.

In the hands of a capable programmer, success is definately possible.

I cannot really comment on what you've seen or what is or is not "bloated and obtuse" by your standards.

To get high performance and highly flexibility in a 3d graphics systemI think you probably have to accept some complexity.

And besides, it helps keep out the riff-raff ( that was meant to be funny ).

You said -- I think -- that you suck and you like LWJGL ... ?

Um, I don't know, people that don't suck can do well with Java3d.

Java3d is kind of "future proof", it supports both OpenGL and DirectXso if sometime in the future DirectX is rendering faster on some machines --( and in particular on your machine or anyone's machine using your software )-- you can take advantage of "whatever works best" and you program works at the fastest possible speed.

Portablity is Good, Java is Good.

Java & Java3d gives you portability across OS-es, CPU-s & rendering layers ( not all, and yes, it is less than perfect ).

Java3d gives you a "higher level" API than OpenGL.

You can probably get a 3d system written faster with Java3d : if you have the skills, time, money, energy and stamina youcan probably get more perforamce if you write-from-scratch-with-OpenGL.

Its a trade off --- everything -- everything is a trade-off.

$100 will give you an amazing graphics card.

With an amazing $100 graphics card,

... maybe the Java3d implementation is fast enough.

If you want to spend 1,000 hours to get 10% more performance,

than god bless you, good luck, you have my admiration.

I'm lazy and want to get projects done faster, so I use Java3d.

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[size=2]|| Just personal experience. || The last time I tried to use java3d was not pretty, I pretty much hated it.|| But we all know how much I know about shit. ...|| please excuse me if i've been really pissy on here lately. || My last project really didn't work out how I wanted and | I made the decision to move to opengl and have to deal | with alot harder stuff || ( god I just want to make a game ! ). || Well, I guess i'm not exactly being a very graceful learner || I feel like I haven't coded a day in my life all over again.| [/size]

[size=6] 3d animation can be very easy with Java3d. [/size]

Given your brief statement it is not possible to identify the problem

People have succeded with Java3d, it does take some time & effort.

But there are lots of examples and demos available for free, so it's remakably easy to try some things out, find a demo that you like,and try teaking it, making it a little better.

Use the tools & resources of the Java3d community including thetools Sun developed for you:

The Sun VRML Loaders, the Sun Java3d Scenegraph Editor & FlyThrough.

Combining VRML and Java with both Java3d using Sun's Loadersand using VRML with Java 1.1 engines ( like Shout3d.com's rather than Java3d )

makes getting started fast & easy, and gives you many options,and lets you separate the programming tasks from the model building.

It's a good programming style to separate your data from your logic :

-- in this case the geometry of your model from the controling programs.

Nasa uses Java3d, VRML, and the Sun VRML Loaders for displaying 3d on the web.

I must admit that Vrml_Java_Animator's post was just trying to be helpful this time, if only a little verbose.Can't we at least just try to get along or if we can't just ignore the people we dislike? Just bitching at eachother serves no purpose as this is getting seriously nasty.

vrml_java_animator would you mind a) being somewhat less verbose in your posts and please try not to repeat yourself in each post you do on every topic in every forum; once you've said it once that's all it needs and b) please avoid starting flame wars over here, because we have a relatively high signal to noise ratio currently, and we're all generally very helpful to each other in our respective disciplines. This is the LWJGL development topic, and the reason it's about LWJGL is because we don't use Java3D and don't need to hear anything about it in here.

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