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I don't enjoy this particular kind of drama because it relies solely on simple misunderstandings and the characters not being clear about what they want (Specifically Kyousuke being the worst offender here).

Well, all I'd clarify is that it's not the characters "are not being clear about what they want", it's that what they want isn't clear to them for reasons both shown and alluded-to in the show. Not going to argue about whether it's better or worse for the story that way... but a lot of shows I've personally enjoyed have demonstrated this sort of emotional ambiguity (again, not just "I'm not telling you", but "I really don't know how I feel yet"). As I said, opinions...

Ambiguity tends to be a double edged sword. Sometimes a well written and subtle story can make use of it to make you think of what just happened. Other times though, it just leads to something disappointing, and I guess I feels like this could be one of these cases to people.

Unless they want to hook in a second season.... I guess I'm pretty ambivalent about that possibility.

Regarding some of the recent discussion over Kyousuke, Kirino and Kuroneko...

Firstly, Kyousuke is DENSE. They haven't done the best job of representing it in the anime, but that's what his relationship with Manami shows (c.f. in particular, Akagi questioning him about it in one of the early episodes).

Re: the conversation behind the school. I wouldn't count that as a confession. Kuroneko probably knows that she'd need to actually spell it out given how dense he is. Thus, she pretty much decided to forego it when she saw the state Kyousuke was in, though she was clever enough to do something that should leave him thinking about it for a while.

Re: Kyousuke's supposedly OOC behaviour. Keep in mind that Kirino hasn't contacted ANYONE for MONTHS. Dunno about you, but if a younger sibling of mine went 'AWOL' overseas at that age, I'd be pretty fricking worried too. Not to mention that Kyousuke has felt that they have been getting closer (as siblings mind you) over that months leading up to that, so the sudden disappearance without a word would have hit him pretty hard.

And finally, sure, Kyousuke's (most probably) a siscon. But does that necessarily mean he's romantically interested in his sister? Do remember that the point of reference we have is the Akagi siblings' relationship, which, admittedly, we haven't seen much of yet, but I doubt that one's romantic... The key questions here would be; what kind of sibling relationship does Kyousuke actually want? How does that tie back to the non-relationship they had at the beginning of the series? What happened to make them drift apart in the first place (keeping in mind the picture in the opening which has them playing together)?

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You must free yourself from that illusion,
from the illusion that a story must have a beginning and an end.

"No, you are not entitled to your opinion... You are only entitled to what you can argue for.”
- Patrick Stokes

Well, all I'd clarify is that it's not the characters "are not being clear about what they want", it's that what they want isn't clear to them for reasons both shown and alluded-to in the show. Not going to argue about whether it's better or worse for the story that way... but a lot of shows I've personally enjoyed have demonstrated this sort of emotional ambiguity (again, not just "I'm not telling you", but "I really don't know how I feel yet"). As I said, opinions...

Well ignoring whether it is an engaging way to tell the story....

The only reason someone like Kyousuke should be so confused is if he has conflicting feelings about his sister. However, as mentioned before, if they wanted to go down the romance route between them two, or allude to it, I find it extremely jarring (Not simply because it's incest though after Yosuga no Sora I think I could use a break from that) due to the lack of explainable reasons for such feelings of confusion.

Yes, he's been helping his sister this whole time. But really, his treatment has been less than satisfactory. You may argue that while we ourselves don't see the reason to like Kirino that Kyousuke does and it would be out of character for him to simply state he doesn't like her and be done with it... However, isn't it important to try to keep characters in dramatic stories well grounded? If the audience can't see why the character would make a decision, put themselves in their shoes, is it not hard to empathize with the characters?

Making the plot coherent and understandable is all I'm asking for. Even if Kyousuke himself is confused, the audience should be able to see this confusion and break down the reasons why, citing dialog and events showcasing why this confusion arose. At the moment, I see none of this.

People who are complaining about Kyousuke's abrupt reaction in the end will probably have to read the light novel to have a better understanding of why Kyousuke had that abrupt reaction in the end. Because this "end" isn't as well-adapted from the light novel into the anime, so it seems abrupt. Yep, not so good adaptation per se.

Also, Kirino's actual personality isn't as rough as many think, because in the light novel, she is shown to have more/as equal of a dere side than a tsun side. It's just that this anime has pretty much portrayed more of her tsun side than her dere side. So yeah.

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Currently Watching:Attack on Titan, Suisei no Gargantia, Ore no Imouto Season 2

uhmmm, incest in not a recent fad. even during the times of ancient world, incest has been a topic/theme in works of art/literature and history even. oedipus? cleopatra? and who would be the wife of biblical cain or even seth?

However, isn't it important to try to keep characters in dramatic stories well grounded? If the audience can't see why the character would make a decision, put themselves in their shoes, is it not hard to empathize with the characters?

Well, I presume that everyone who watches entertainment does so because there's something that hooks them and keeps them interested. I'm not convinced that "I could really deeply empathize with all the characters" is always one of those key reasons, though it certainly could be. (Usually people have to at least be able to engage with some of the main characters, but not necessarily all of them, especially in this specific sub-genre.) If this is a story that manages to attract and entertain a large audience even given this storytelling strategy, then it seems to me there must be some merit in it. At least it seems to keep people engaged and talking about it, if nothing else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Making the plot coherent and understandable is all I'm asking for. Even if Kyousuke himself is confused, the audience should be able to see this confusion and break down the reasons why, citing dialog and events showcasing why this confusion arose. At the moment, I see none of this.

All I really ask is "keep me engaged". I don't find the plot here particularly incoherent or incomprehensible as it is, but I'm willing to live with some ambiguity and to come up with my own theories that fill in some of the gaps that I imagine will be filled eventually. Life is full of emotional ambiguity, so I don't personally require my fiction to be all neatly-wrapped, but I recognize that's a preference not a principle. I liked a lot of shows that other people consider flawed, and that doesn't really bother me.

People who are complaining about Kyousuke's abrupt reaction in the end will probably have to read the light novel to have a better understanding of why Kyousuke had that abrupt reaction in the end. Because this "end" isn't as well-adapted from the light novel into the anime, so it seems abrupt. Yep, not so good adaptation per se.

Also, Kirino's actual personality isn't as rough as many think, because in the light novel, she is shown to have more/as equal of a dere side than a tsun side. It's just that this anime has pretty much portrayed more of her tsun side than her dere side. So yeah.

And how do we do this when we can't read japanese (O.o)? It is the director's/writer's job to ensure enough detail is given to properly convey an adaptation, so it is pointless to say "read the light novel". The anime should not be a complement to the light novel; it should stand in it's own right.

And how do we do this when we can't read japanese (O.o)? It is the director's/writer's job to ensure enough detail is given to properly convey an adaptation, so it is pointless to say "read the light novel". The anime should not be a complement to the light novel; it should stand in it's own right.

You can read the manga, it's being translated. Although its pretty far behind (it's only gotten to the point where Kyousuke helped Kirino patch up her relationship with Ayase) but from those chapters alone you see a massive difference between the anime Kirino and her "paper" form.

And how do we do this when we can't read japanese (O.o)? It is the director's/writer's job to ensure enough detail is given to properly convey an adaptation, so it is pointless to say "read the light novel". The anime should not be a complement to the light novel; it should stand in it's own right.

I have to admit that "just read the novels" is lacking as a cover for an adaptation's perceived inadequacies. But at the same time, it's clear to me that adapting so much text in so few episodes is not easy even in the best of times, and I have been on the other side of the proverbial fence a number of times too (in terms of being familiar with the source before seeing the adaptation). In the end, I think we do have to judge the works separately. But we also have to keep in mind that a large portion of the target audience is in fact people in Japan who have already read the novels (or decide to read the novels after starting the anime - the anime is made to help sell books too), so we can't discount the perspective that experiencing both brings to the table either.

The fact simply is that we're at a natural disadvantage. We have a limited perspective that is quite valid, but probably not ideal or maybe even what the anime director/writers intended. We could judge the production staff for it, but they also may not care what we think. And so it goes...

1. Those were some awfully nasty insults she was throwing at him, guys. Are these really the sort of lines you want to say in the lead-up to an implied romantic confession? :

"You are really... the worst kind of pathetic senpai."

"A thickheaded, perverted, lazy idiot with terrible judgement."

Kyousuke has done absolutely nothing to deserve these sorts of harsh, over-the-top insults. He has consistently gone out of his way to help Kuroneko, and she decides to insult him like this?

2. Kuroneko made a huge deal over Kyousuke not acting more quickly in trying to help out Kirino. Kuroneko was basically saying that Kyousuke should have just stood her up in order to help out his sister. How exactly do you take that sort of comment from a girl that you're on friendly terms with, and who may or may not have romantic feelings for you?

Now, yes, this is Kuroneko being kuudere or tsundere towards Kyousuke. It's consistent with anime tropes.

However, if we're going to judge this scene through the prism of strict realism, those sorts of comments on Kuroneko's part would legitimately confuse, if not even piss off, the person on the receiving end of them. Kyousuke only seems particularly dense, imo, when you expect him to be genre savvy to the fictional world that he's in. But most people wouldn't pass off Kuroneko's comments as simply her being kuudere in real life, so I don't see why we should expect that of Kyousuke here.

I have to say the anime kinda did a disservice to Kirino's character by turning her tsun up to 11.
She seems much cuter in the novels and manga.

Even the last episode is different from the novels.
Kirino was supposed to be sick when Kyousuke showed up.

US customs doesn't really care that much about eroge, they did scan all my luggages every time, since i bring delicious snacks/candy every time. my first time, they caught me with a bag of pork chips. it went into the trashcan and my passport was scanned.

my dad, can bring a bag full of beef jerky, with the picture of cow on the bag itself, and they don't care.

And how do we do this when we can't read japanese (O.o)? It is the director's/writer's job to ensure enough detail is given to properly convey an adaptation, so it is pointless to say "read the light novel". The anime should not be a complement to the light novel; it should stand in it's own right.

This is a fair point. I could say the same for VN adaptations as well. Though it's inevitable that source material and adaptations will be compared.

Well, I presume that everyone who watches entertainment does so because there's something that hooks them and keeps them interested. I'm not convinced that "I could really deeply empathize with all the characters" is always one of those key reasons, though it certainly could be. (Usually people have to at least be able to engage with some of the main characters, but not necessarily all of them, especially in this specific sub-genre.) If this is a story that manages to attract and entertain a large audience even given this storytelling strategy, then it seems to me there must be some merit in it. At least it seems to keep people engaged and talking about it, if nothing else.

Of course we all look for different things in our entertainment. Ultimately it's my own reasoning and I am aware that the same reasoning doesn't necessarily apply to you or others, all I can do is offer the weight of my opinion, however small it may be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

All I really ask is "keep me engaged". I don't find the plot here particularly incoherent or incomprehensible as it is, but I'm willing to live with some ambiguity and to come up with my own theories that fill in some of the gaps that I imagine will be filled eventually. Life is full of emotional ambiguity, so I don't personally require my fiction to be all neatly-wrapped, but I recognize that's a preference not a principle. I liked a lot of shows that other people consider flawed, and that doesn't really bother me.

Which I believe boils down to an ongoing debate we've had over the years about how do we level certain works against each other (Which is better, which is worst, what makes a show better or worst) since it's "preference" and "opinion" . And of course we have threads for that else where.

Again all I can say is that I believe for the reasons that I've laid out, that I and others who think similarly may be unable to enjoy this anime as much as others. I recognize people view things differently.

I do feel that I can say with confidence at the very least that any attempts to go down any sort incestual route in this anime will probably kill the show's popularity int he West even more so if it hasn't already been. Indeed I realize that I am not the target audience of this show by any means.

I wasn't really bothered by Kyousuke continuing to go after the 'confession' from Kuroneko. It didn't feel like a full confession anyways and she was pretty literally pushing him on his way. I think she knew that it wasn't going to be possible to truly confess with this Kirino situation hanging overhead. Considering it had been several months she had to be worried too. Think she really only went half way with the confession to get Kyousuke thinking some more, say some of the things she wanted to and make her stand before Kirino was dealt with. There is plenty of time for her to confess in the way that is necessary (being obvious enough to overpower Kyousuke's denseness) .

Maybe the only thing that really made me roll my eyes during the Kyousuke and Kirino moments was the whole "I'll die" thing. You were doing just fine making a point before that. Think he had to be that over the top to make a stubborn Kirino give up on this. She wouldn't enjoy suffering through the rest of this time and neither would Kyousuke or the others. Think most of it was his true feelings (and being a siscon) and part was trying to once again act for Kirino's own good.

I can't speak for eroge, but I've brought plenty of doujins through US Customs right in my carry-on. Never gave it a thought, never had a problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Well, if you want me to understand your argument, you would probably have to qualify/describe the nature of the personal growth you think we were shown and how it was negated by his choice here. It (still?) isn't very clear to me how this episode negates anything that was shown about Kyousuke's character, values, or opinions.

For me, it comes down to the simple fact that he had started to seemingly have a little self-respect. He'd developed a pretty normal and healthy (relatively) friendship with Kuroneko. He seemed to be coping perfectly fine with Kirino's absence - thinking of her as any sibling would and worrying that she wasn't communicating much, but getting on with his life.

Now, in this ending, he's right back to square one. Any feelings he has for Kuroneko or Manami are jettisoned as he whips away to America. And once there, any progress he'd made in his relationship with Kirino is gone, too - right back to square one - she insults and degrades him (at least she didn't kick him in the nuts this time - I guess we call that progress) and he meekly takes it and offers himself at her beck and call. Breaks down in tears and pleads her to come home, because he can't function without her. Excuse me? What was all that healthy school life I was looking at what she was gone?

Everything felt stagnant. Kirino didn't really grow much either, as far as I'm concerned. I've said since early on that Kyou was doing her no favors by allowing her to behave the way she did and suffer no consequences for it. There were hints of progress in the "good end", but the conversation in her dorm could easily have taken place in the second or third episode. It was actually worse, because he more or less openly acknowledged that he was attracted to her and uninterested in being with anyone else. That just makes me sad.

I hope that at least gives you a better idea of where my disappointment is coming from. I suspect we're at the point of diminishing returns on this discussion, because it seems to be a simply case of a different set of expectations and a different interpretation of events, and I'm fine with that. But you asked - so I gave it a shot!