I guess Swan is trying to be all things to all users, which is good in a way. It would help however if he gave a few figures regarding percentages or at least tenor info (formality labels), and/or indicated that the inverted variant might well be considered a slip or mistake. Ultimately, there are more important things to worry about, and if a student is already in the habit of making the error, it may be too ossified a fossilization to break.

Bumping this up because I've been sent a photo of the page (New Edition, 1995)

You mean you're still using the First edition?! (1980!!!). I thought you were after information from the most recent edition! That is, the Second (which I have) is the 1995. For the very latest and last word from Swan however, I'm afraid you'll have to consult the Third edition (2005). Edit: But who can afford to quite keep up with ELT book prices nowadays? The Third edition new from e.g. Amazon UK is almost twice the price the Second used to be!

Um yes, I've got a really old edition of PEU. Dare not look at the date inside. On the other hand, I thought that English grammar stayed basically the same and that there was no point getting a new edition.

Then of course they go and change all the rules, and what you thought was incorrect is, apparently, now correct.

The reported question issue is a thorny one. Whatever about Swan, read relatively older literature and you'll see plenty of examples of reported questions which appear to break the rules. (Don't ask me to give any specific examples, though - can't offhand. But keep an eye out in future and they'll be positively be popping off the page.)

Also, linked to various ... what's the word....? Regionalisms! Folk in various parts of the UK and Ireland use this apparently non-standard form as a matter of course.

Um yes, I've got a really old edition of PEU. Dare not look at the date inside. On the other hand, I thought that English grammar stayed basically the same and that there was no point getting a new edition.

Then of course they go and change all the rules, and what you thought was incorrect is, apparently, now correct.

I read Crystal once opine that a dictionary should be updated at least every five years, and that seems to be the rough rate now that Longman and Oxford release new editions. With regards to grammar rather than vocabulary, the rate of change is as you say slower, and I'm wary of new editions that come at anything less than a decade apart. I think at least a generation (@20 years say) is needed between editions for any genuine changes to be confidently registered. Ultimately all one can really do is look at the additions or increased size of the work. Swan 2 (1995) was definitely much larger and more comprehensive than Swan 1 (1980), but Swan 3 (2005) hadn't added much and seemed to be dredging up and championing ever more questionable usages, as if they'd help justify the new edition only ten years later. Compare that to the Third (2004) edition of Leech's Meaning and the English Verb, which definitely had some changes to report in modal usage in/after the 17 years since the Second (1987) edition.

Anyhoo...

Would it follow (from what Swan says) that 'She asked had he been' be as fine as 'She asked if he had been'?

Like I said before, personally I think there are more important things to worry about, and I'm sure that people do at least sometimes say (if not write?) the inverted variants.

Last edited by fluffyhamster on Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:07 am; edited 1 time in total

Probably not the best example to use to show this grammar in use, given how many other rules Joyce liked to break. But heck, where else would I have an excuse to post up Molly Bloom's soliloquy?

"...I was a Flower of the mountain yes when I put the rose in my hair like the Andalusian girls used or shall I wear a red yes and how he kissed me under the Moorish wall and I thought well as well him as another and then I asked him with my eyes to ask again yes and then he asked me would I yes to say yes my mountain flower and first I put my arms around him yes and drew him down to me so he could feel my *beep* all perfume yes and his heart was going like mad and yes I said yes I will Yes. "