criznit2009 wrote:I have been biting my tongue for awhile. But many of you are probably about to besorely or at least partially disappointed.

The inidans aren't going to squat at the winter meeting in regards to signing any worthwhile FA's. Sure they were in on Loney until.......We will be hearing variations of this all week.I really hope I am wrong but the only way the indians add anybody is going to be via trade - and there are a lot of scenarios/players involved here - basically everyone in the organization is available.

So maybe we will be surprised I'd love Swisher... But its not happening. Thre is no way the indians offer anyone a 3+ yr deal. So anyone who could be had on a 3 yr deal is possible - but I highly doubt it. I don't expect anything to happen of substance in regards to FA this year. Please review the past couple of off-seasons if you disagree.

IMO the objective for the indians this off-season will be to keep payroll as low as humanly possible. Why? Coupled with the sale of STO and a super-low payroll Dolan is trying to make as much money he possibly can RIGHT NOW. I believe he wants to sell the team and will do whatever it takes to keep the payroll as low as he can get away with in an attempt to improve the attractiveness of the team. Seeing how we dont really have any "rock star" players, fancy new stadium etc. to entice a buyer

There will not be much disappointment if the Indians don't over pay a .227 hitter $ 13 MM / year for three years by anyone who is a fan of the Indians. Free Agent acquisitions are almost always a "diminishing returns" situation for the acquiring team and should be avoided, if at all possible.

As far as the "speculated/glass half empty/negative nelly reasoning for not spending" (or keeping a super low payroll), Mr. Dolan has not shown any inclination to sell the Indians and may never. That is always open to change...

Losing out on James Loney is no big deal IMO. I think he could do well with the Rays as they look at add offense but another LH bat? I get it he's young and would fill the need but I seriously doubt with the same offer on the table that Loney chooses the Tribe bc the Rays are likely going to be very competitive and well Tampa / St. Pete is a pretty nice region of the country. I'm not sure that comes into play with Loney but it does with some guys.

As much as I liked Napoli $13 Mil is too much. But at 3 yrs instead of 4 yrs like he wanted that's probably part of the overpayment.

The Indians are waiting for the top free agents to sign. Once that happens, teams that lose out will be calling them to make deals. The Indians have the highest-quality tradable players currently on the market. Right fielder Shin-Soo Choo is one of the most underrated right fielders in baseball. He’s a complete player and is about to enter his free-agent walk year. He is represented by Scott Boras, which means it’s unlikely he’ll sign a contract extension before testing the open market. Therefore, once Josh Hamilton, Cody Ross and Nick Swisher have inked deals, the clubs that missed out will attempt to trade for Choo.

Several teams are pursuing shortstop Asdrubal Cabrera, including the Arizona Diamondbacks, Detroit Tigers and Oakland Athletics. If anyone of those teams puts together the right package of young starting pitching, it might be able to pry him loose. Closer Chris Perez is well respected throughout the game as a straight shooter who speaks his mind without filter, which is fine unless you’re always bashing the ownership, the front office and the fans. His trade value is at an all-time high, and now is the best time to get the best return. With starting pitching always at a premium, the Tribe also will listen to offers for Justin Masterson and Ubaldo Jimenez. The bottom line is the Indians will be an interesting team to watch in Nashville.

There's no way we trade anything of value to the tigers, right? Their specs suck.

I don't see any four player combo in that list, even including any comp draft pick(S), that I'd trade Asdrubal for and I wouldn't help them even if it really helped us. Imagine the Browns trading a Pro Bowl guy to the Stillers.

I agree with you Rocky here. Only way I could see there not being a riot on Asdrubal being dealt to the Tigers is if a guy like Victor Martinez is coming back (plus several good prospects).

Would never happen...but think a Chris Perez for Victor Martinez deal would make some sense for both sides. Gets the Tigers an established closer allowing them to work Rondon in more. Opens up the DH spot for Prince to eventually move into, with Miggy moving back to 1B and Castellanos staying at 3B (instead of fooling around with the OF). Tribe moves an overpriced (and Pain in Mangement's ass) closer for a middle of the order bat to protect Santana in the lineup and gives the fans someone they can connect with. Sounds crazy and know it won't happen...but a 2-time All-Star closer (even one as overrated as Perez) for a DH-only guy without big power coming off an ACL tear....both have 2 years left I believe too...video game style trade I know but but just the fan in me wishing here lol

homerawayfromhome wrote:First, I like the Denard Span trade by the Nats, I would have figured the Twins could have gotten more but Alex Meyer is a potential number 1 starter the Twins will benefit from this move IF he stays healthy and develops. Ppl seem to forget Meyer was at one time considered the number 1 prospect in the draft a few yrs back.

Second, has Russell Martin signing set a few other moves in motion??? Here's where I'm going...Martin is only 30 signed short term for a bit larger of a deal than he was valued by other clubs like the Rangers and Yanks who offered less reportedly althought the Rangers offered 3yrs / $21 M reportedly.

Third, the mkt on Michael Bourn seems to be drying up a bit with the moves of Upton and Span and the Phillies reportedly heatedly after Angel Pagan to man CF. Hes a guy I wanted the Tribe to pay the price on (instead of Ubaldo). The Giants, Rangers, Reds, Cubs and Phillies all reportedly have some level of interest. Could the Tribe kick the tires on Bourn? I think his contract demands ($$$ and yrs) could make that unlikely.

Suppose you could see the Indians kick the tires but can't see them even making him an offer in the end. And personally I'm fine with that. I think Bourn is one of the most overrated free agents this winter. I love his defense as much as anyone and the steals are nice, but for a guy that keeps getting touted as a leadoff guy...his career .339 OBP just doesn't excite me at all. Only once has he been over .350 even. If I'm gonna spend that much on a guy with Bourn's skill-set I want a much, much higher OBP. I know some think I put too much emphasis on OBP for a leadoff hitter but still say it's far and away the thing you look at there.

homerawayfromhome wrote:First, I like the Denard Span trade by the Nats, I would have figured the Twins could have gotten more but Alex Meyer is a potential number 1 starter the Twins will benefit from this move IF he stays healthy and develops. Ppl seem to forget Meyer was at one time considered the number 1 prospect in the draft a few yrs back.

Second, has Russell Martin signing set a few other moves in motion??? Here's where I'm going...Martin is only 30 signed short term for a bit larger of a deal than he was valued by other clubs like the Rangers and Yanks who offered less reportedly althought the Rangers offered 3yrs / $21 M reportedly.

Third, the mkt on Michael Bourn seems to be drying up a bit with the moves of Upton and Span and the Phillies reportedly heatedly after Angel Pagan to man CF. Hes a guy I wanted the Tribe to pay the price on (instead of Ubaldo). The Giants, Rangers, Reds, Cubs and Phillies all reportedly have some level of interest. Could the Tribe kick the tires on Bourn? I think his contract demands ($$$ and yrs) could make that unlikely.

Suppose you could see the Indians kick the tires but can't see them even making him an offer in the end. And personally I'm fine with that. I think Bourn is one of the most overrated free agents this winter. I love his defense as much as anyone and the steals are nice, but for a guy that keeps getting touted as a leadoff guy...his career .339 OBP just doesn't excite me at all. Only once has he been over .350 even. If I'm gonna spend that much on a guy with Bourn's skill-set I want a much, much higher OBP. I know some think I put too much emphasis on OBP for a leadoff hitter but still say it's far and away the thing you look at there.

Personally, if we could get the Michael Bourn fo the first half of 2012 then yes. The second half Michael Bourn faded dramatically. With a speed guy, fading in the second half of a contract year is a red flag (for me). Is the wear-n-tear on his body starting to catch up to him? Just not a good gamble for what he's asking for.

As for the OBP stat, I'd sacrifice some obp for a lead-off hitter that steals alot. Getting to 2nd base increases the number of runs he scores. A guy like that will score more runs than a slower guy with a 20 point higher OBP. In the end, scoring runs is the object of an offence. Plus even the threat of him stealing makes the #2-#3 guys better hitters as pitchers are paying more attention to him and when he goes fielders are out of position.

I'm curious if the Tribe lands Victorino if its to offset a potential Choo trade. I know they need a LF desperately and Victorino could man any of the three spots but could trying to land Victorino be a sign of a potential move of Choo? The are still a number of clubs looking for OF help. It just seems like there are more suitors out there in the OF mkt than there are legit pieces availible.

homerawayfromhome wrote:I'm curious if the Tribe lands Victorino if its to offset a potential Choo trade. I know they need a LF desperately and Victorino could man any of the three spots but could trying to land Victorino be a sign of a potential move of Choo? The are still a number of clubs looking for OF help. It just seems like there are more suitors out there in the OF mkt than there are legit pieces availible.

That's exactly right about the "offset" comment. Because of his contract status, it's not if, it's when and that could be anytime. The Indians are in a can't lose situation and need to determine who they want for him.

How many yrs on Victorino? One report suggest he's got an offer for 4 yrs. I'm not believing that, he's already 32 but at 3 yrs / $30 mil it seems like a steep price but then again it's comparable to Edwin Encarnacion and Carlos Quentin's deals respectively and the mkt has gotten a jump with new (MORE) TV revenues coming in for all the clubs.

I think the Tribe could be wise to offer 3yrs $24 / $27 Mil in that range. I'm thinking he's a harder sign than Cody Ross and at this point Ross's 3 yrs / $25 mil (reported pricetag) isn't seeming so bad. Maybe the Tribe could swing back aound and sign him for 2 yrs / $17 mil with a vesting option. Then turn right back around and trade off Choo to the highest bidder.

Another name to consider is Nate Scheirholtz the LH OF could sign for James Loney type money 1 yr $2 mil w/ $1 mil in incentives. I know they'd be lefty heavy but that might be premature with the potential for the Tribe to still make a number of other moves ie trading ACab.

The Rockies are reportedly asking the Braves for Mike Minor for Dexter Fowler. They've also expressed interest in Homer Bailey of the Reds.

Will be interesting to see what the Reds do with their rotation now that it sounds like Chapman will finally make the move to the rotation. Who's the odd man out there? I'm guessing Leake is more likely to go than Bailey though. Would love to pry Bailey away from the Reds for Choo though think they'd shoot that down pretty quick as he finally put together a type of season they hoped for when they drafted him. Then again, only has two years controllablility left so maybe sell high?

If there was a chance on getting Mike Minor I'd love it too but he led the Braves in innings pitched last year and while they do have a lot of young pitching, don't see them moving any more MLB SP talent. Staff isn't that great.

All this excitement is driving me bonkers. I'm thinking about just tuning out till Sunday, and hoping by then we have signed Victorino, Youk, Pelfrey/Lannan and traded ACab and Smith for Bauer and Archie Bradley (Ive got a feeling thats probably what we initially asked for...or something close to it)

I won't be shocked at all if nothing happens. Just going to be tons of quotes regarding the Indians having "serious interest" in so and so. Then more quotes from the FO about how they made a lot good connections and had good dialog.

Maybe, MAYBE there will be a surprise deal that will leave a lot of you saddened by the return based on the suggestions that are being offered.

BrianM wrote:All this excitement is driving me bonkers. I'm thinking about just tuning out till Sunday, and hoping by then we have signed Victorino, Youk, Pelfrey/Lannan and traded ACab and Smith for Bauer and Archie Bradley (Ive got a feeling thats probably what we initially asked for...or something close to it)

Brian if all of that happened, as we used to say in East Toledo, I'd kiss Shapiro's ass in Murphy's window.

The going price on the Indians' two-time All-Star is three to four players, preferably four. The Indians had the framework of a deal in place in which they would have received one big-league pitcher and two high-level prospects. When the Indians asked for a third prospect, the deal dissolved.

The particular team the Indians were negotiating with planned to change Cabrera's position, but right now he's the top shortstop available this winter through free agency or trades.

A scout said the asking price on Perez was a lot less pricey than Cabrera

The Padres are in the market for starting pitching and reportedly have asked about Justin Masterson and Ubaldo Jimenez.

BrianM wrote:All this excitement is driving me bonkers. I'm thinking about just tuning out till Sunday, and hoping by then we have signed Victorino, Youk, Pelfrey/Lannan and traded ACab and Smith for Bauer and Archie Bradley (Ive got a feeling thats probably what we initially asked for...or something close to it)

Nice optimistic posting here Brian..nice to see.. The signing would appear to be a bit beyond where we've been led to believe will be the Indians spending/risk appetite threshold, but not completely "un-doable", especially the two FA/Non-tendered SP's. The suggested trade sounds like a LOT for Acab and Smith, however, based on the current asking prices and other market conditions, may not be quite so crazy.

In your excitement, you have addressed the proper time line for local news maven Paul Hoynes to report on the happenings at the Winter Meetings. The meetings will be over on Thursday, so, by Sunday, he will have most (probably not all) of the Indians moves and changes that were made during the event. Like always with him, three days late and authored under his typical by-line of Mr. Obvious.

I'm curious which team it may have been. It seems like the Cards could have been the other team, but would they move ACab to 2b? Could it have been a team like the Dodgers, Yankees or even the Phillies? Curious, but we probably will never know what the deal was.

I could see the Tribe netting a ML SP and a cpl upper level minor leaguers BUT only if..A. They are not qlty prospectsORB. The Tribe kicks in an additional player like Joe Smith, Tony Sipp, Cord Phelps or Lou Marson.

Just saying it could take another piece from the Tribe to land the type deal they are reportedly demanding.

Honestly, I hope the Tribe is able to get something done in the next few days, it seems they have the makings of a deal in place maybe it just takes a little something extra to get it done.

Mets are trying to trade Dickey, who is set to make $5 million next year. They're obviously commited to their young SP's, which kills them for us as a trading partner, since that's our primary target. Mets must have given up on next season. No other reason to give up a guy that is that cheap & that good. That's a tough division.

homerawayfromhome wrote:I'm curious which team it may have been. It seems like the Cards could have been the other team, but would they move ACab to 2b? Could it have been a team like the Dodgers, Yankees or even the Phillies? Curious, but we probably will never know what the deal was.

I could see the Tribe netting a ML SP and a cpl upper level minor leaguers BUT only if..A. They are not qlty prospectsORB. The Tribe kicks in an additional player like Joe Smith, Tony Sipp, Cord Phelps or Lou Marson.

Just saying it could take another piece from the Tribe to land the type deal they are reportedly demanding.

Honestly, I hope the Tribe is able to get something done in the next few days, it seems they have the makings of a deal in place maybe it just takes a little something extra to get it done.

That's what kills me about these rumors. I'm dying of curiousity. Smart of them not to reveal. Imagine the outcry if they had a great deal & blew it. Hangings in effigy.

I'm not so sure. It depends on what they get back in return for Dickey. Obviously, they have stud young pitching but they could pull off 3/4 prospects for Dickey of that could / and probably should be another high upside arm or two. If that's the case they could still be in. Everything I've heard on the Mets is that they would look to fill holes through trades and making a few minimal signings. They reportedly didn't have money to spend this offseason in FA. Next offseason could be another picture for them as they have Johan Santana's money off the the books I believe.

Honestly, I really don't see anything getting done with the Mets unless its something minor like Joe Smith but moving Dickey could change things a bit for them.

The news that the Padres are interested in Jimenez isn't overly shocking, I think it's been mentioned on here over the wk end a few times. I could see the Tribe and Padres work out a deal but only if the Tribe makes a few additions to the pitching staff first. As I mentioned yesterday the Tribe could always turn around and sign an arm like Blanton or Villanueva and expect to get similar production IMO.

I'm not so sure. It depends on what they get back in return for Dickey. Obviously, they have stud young pitching but they could pull off 3/4 prospects for Dickey of that could / and probably should be another high upside arm or two. If that's the case they could still be in. Everything I've heard on the Mets is that they would look to fill holes through trades and making a few minimal signings. They reportedly didn't have money to spend this offseason in FA. Next offseason could be another picture for them as they have Johan Santana's money off the the books I believe.

Honestly, I really don't see anything getting done with the Mets unless its something minor like Joe Smith but moving Dickey could change things a bit for them.

The news that the Padres are interested in Jimenez isn't overly shocking, I think it's been mentioned on here over the wk end a few times. I could see the Tribe and Padres work out a deal but only if the Tribe makes a few additions to the pitching staff first. As I mentioned yesterday the Tribe could always turn around and sign an arm like Blanton or Villanueva and expect to get similar production IMO.

Superficial knowledge of the Mets system but they seem to need the position guys. Harvey/Niese/Wheeler(maybe) next year seems to be a pretty strong group.

The hard part for them is that Dickey's pretty old. A rich contending team would only be inclined to overpay for him in prospects if they could lock him up long term. Dickey's not ancient but do you want to sign him for 4+ yrs? Plus, the fact that his contract is reasonable wouldn't matter much to a rich team. Scares me to say so but I could see the stinkin tigers making a deal for him. That would suck.

I knew the Mets had interest the Tribes pen arms (Perez / Smith) but, was clueless they were looking at Pestano. IF the Tribe could net two top ten prospects or one major leaguer and a solid top 10 prospect I'd seriously consider it. Maybe they could pull out Wheeler for Pestano straight up...I'd ask for that. My thoughts are the Mets view him as an affordable option at Closer.

Ideally, the Tribe would move Perez bc of his cost. Maybe they end up maxing Pestano's value now and holding off on moving Perez. I'm mildly concerned with Pestano's struggle late last season and previous injury, but not enough to hold off moving him. I'd have to be blown away to make a move myself. IMO, the Tribe should handle Pestano higher (demand more) than Perez bc of controllability and cost.

The Mets don't excite because they won't want to give up any near mlb ready SP's. So guys like Wheeler and Harvey are out. Tapia would be a nice addition, but he's too far away for someone like Vinnie P. The Mets really don't have much else that would be of interest to the Indians THAT the Mets would want to trade. A trade for the sake of a trade is a BAD idea.

As an aside, btw, you can measure the validity of a trade rumor by the number of other sources that pick up the rumor and run a story from their own team's perspective. The number of follow up stories for the latest Hoynes offering Cabrera for four prospects) is absolutely ZERO. If he could be any more cryptic, IDK how.. What he can be is repetitive. Recall last year's trade that Antonetti claimed to be close that would really excite the fan base.. that never happened.. CA was dogged on that pronouncement for weeks and months. It is without a doubt what we'll hear from Hoynes in his coming Sunday editorial review of the winter meetings. He'll validate this idiot story with the CA quote from last year, as if they have some kind of connection...

The going price on the Indians' two-time All-Star is three to four players, preferably four. The Indians had the framework of a deal in place in which they would have received one big-league pitcher and two high-level prospects. When the Indians asked for a third prospect, the deal dissolved.

The particular team the Indians were negotiating with planned to change Cabrera's position, but right now he's the top shortstop available this winter through free agency or trades.

A scout said the asking price on Perez was a lot less pricey than Cabrera

The Padres are in the market for starting pitching and reportedly have asked about Justin Masterson and Ubaldo Jimenez.

I've heard too that a few teams are looking at Cabrera as a 2B. I really wonder if a team like the Blue Jays could be in play here. They have some nice specs still and already made one big splash this winter. Bonaficio looks to be slated as their starting 2B but may be better served as a utility guy. Cabrera and Reyes would make a nice 2B/SS combo. If I could get one of Noah Syndergaard/Aaron Sanchez (or hell, both), Travis d'Arnaud, and J.A. Happ (not a big fan but a MLB starting pitcher).

ha, quite the revelation from that scout there....not. (not a knock on you, just funny a scout even felt the need to point this out).

Curious how many teams will be in on Ubaldo. Obviously was terrible last year, but still logged innings and teams still can be tempted by stuff/potential. Cheap too. With Haren getting $13M while having a down year (though much better than Ubaldo) and having some injury concerns, a 1 year $5M+ on Ubaldo seems like a resonable gamble for teams.

criznit2009 wrote:Though it isnt on the table - here is one to pick your brain..

Would you trade Ubaldo for Alex White straight up?

I wouldn't. Not convinced White is a starter and a RH reliever is not a need for us. I'd rather roll the dice and see if Ubaldo couldn't have a bounceback year, something similar to what Fausto did in 2010 (wasn't great but made All-Star team).

criznit2009 wrote:Though it isnt on the table - here is one to pick your brain..

Would you trade Ubaldo for Alex White straight up?

Criznit.. end of the day, no. I wouldn't trade Ubaldo straight up for Alex White. Why delay the inevitable? Ubaldo could be done with his Indians career in the matter of moments based on the 'next' phone call.. or one year. Alex White will be around for three or four years. As neither pitcher have the skills needed to be part of the reason the Indians win more games than they lose, why keep increase the length of the penal sentence?

or. you could hope for a "turnaround year" from Ubaldo thereby making him more valuable.. however unlikely that is...

Last edited by GeronimoSon on Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I wouldn't say he's untouchable, but I liked the term Frank Wren used regarding some of his players, Pestano might be unreachable in terms of potential value.

Choo/Perez/Pestano for Harvey.

Cashing a lot of trade chips in for one pitching prospect?

Yeah & maybe not maximizing their value but you are getting what you want. Blake for Santana aside, Choo by himself, Perez by himself, maybe not that valuable. Pestano is but he has reliever value. Also, I don't consider Harvey a prospect. That there is your basic young stud ML SP.

Last edited by Rocky55 on Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Per: Ken Rosenthal on twitter, the Tribes effort to move Choo has been hampered by the return the Twinkies netted for 3 yrs of Denard Span. Alex Meyer is a FOR type arm. Overall, I thought the Twins could have gotten at least an additional prospect but landing a potential ace for a good CF is a sound deal to me.

homerawayfromhome wrote:Per: Ken Rosenthal on twitter, the Tribes effort to move Choo has been hampered by the return the Twinkies netted for 3 yrs of Denard Span. Alex Meyer is a FOR type arm. Overall, I thought the Twins could have gotten at least an additional prospect but landing a potential ace for a good CF is a sound deal to me.

He also noted that Meyer is in A ball and not as close to the majors as who the Indians want in return. Also that Span has more team control than that of Choo and also that Choo is a Boras client.

Everything indicates the Indians will be better off waiting to deal Choo right now. Whether its this winter or at the deadline, fact is right now there is still a crap load of FA outfielders looking for a home. Once those dominoes fall interest in Choo could always pick up.

That is good news GT. AZ is without a doubt our best trade partner. They have a surplus of good young pitching, and I mean very good. Not one team has three pitching prospects comparable to Bauer, Skaggs, and Bradley. I don't think ACab is worth any combo of 2 of those guys, but it would be incredible if thats what we bring back.

BrianM wrote:That is good news GT. AZ is without a doubt our best trade partner. They have a surplus of good young pitching, and I mean very good. Not one team has three pitching prospects comparable to Bauer, Skaggs, and Bradley. I don't think ACab is worth any combo of 2 of those guys, but it would be incredible if thats what we bring back.

Could also mean nothing at all. Or could be a scenario where we get one of those convoluted 9 team trades people seem to like where everyone swaps about 17 players between them.

GoTribe028 wrote:Pedro Gomez tweeted that the DBacks and Phillies are discussing some sort of Cliff Lee for Justin Upton trade

Jordan Bastian reporting the Jason Bay to Seattle report was premature and the Indians "are still in on him"

Also an interesting screen capture has surfaced online, on the MLBNetwork Chris Antonetti and Terry Francona are clearly visible in the Arizona "war room"

Obviously there is a fit there for Asdrubal Cabrera, plus rumors have been popping up that they are trying to deal Jason Kubel

I definitely wouldn't mind landing Kubel from the D'backs. Another lefty but could replace Hafner at DH and has power which we could use. Would need to the be the 2nd or 3rd piece in a deal though. Would still want a guy like Bauer or Skaggs.