I would imagine he means "better" in his opinion. Although considering the poster, maybe not. (I joke ofc).

Yeah, I was just messing with him since he's said the same to me when I've slammed another game.

Mark my words, if a game comes that has better space combat and PvE content, it would undoubtedly grab much of Eve's players. Afterall, it is hardly a stretch to imagine better systems for both (if you have played other games). See how the economy runs then.

Eve's position is quite fragile the way I see it. Again, one serious competitor.

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Only survivor actually, there were others, Jumpgate, SWG, Earth and Beyond, but they all faded into history leaving only EVE to carry on the legacy.

In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways."I don't have one life, I have many lives" - GruntyStill currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

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Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by generals3

Originally posted by Quirhid

Mark my words, if a game comes that has better space combat and PvE content, it would undoubtedly grab much of Eve's players. Afterall, it is hardly a stretch to imagine better systems for both (if you have played other games). See how the economy runs then.

Eve's position is quite fragile the way I see it. Again, one serious competitor.

I beg to differ. While EVE does have some lackings in certain aspects of the game there is just so much to do that it totally overcompensates for it. What EVE managed to do is synch all the aspects of the game perfectly and i doubt any game will soon come which can accomplish the same. And if DUST succeeds it would an other layer of depth to eve.

I don't think overcompensation is a good thing. Anyway. trading will never compensate for a combat system. Not for everyone.

Except that EVE is so much more than just 3 systems (combat mechanics, PVE or trading) in fact it might have 10, 15 or more depending how you decide to slice/dice them.

Say someone basically creates a space MMO that virtually mimics Wing Commander, then what? What about the PVP mechanics, what about things such as mining, exploration, wormholes, incursions, war deccing, suicide ganking, scamming, market trading, etc etc etc. Never forget the real time training of skills (something many of us love in EVE due to our casual game play styles). Will the new title have PLEX to fund activities as well?

Point is, EVE is far more complicated and deep than I think you realize (you really don't give CCP enough credit IMO) so any new title is going to run into the same issue that people competing with WOW do, it's impossible to launch with anything near the features and functionalty that CCP has built into EVE over the years.

While it would be fun for a while to mess around in a new space sim, it would quickly pale in the face of EVE's greater metagame which is actually more important to most EVE players than the actual gameplay/mechanics themeselves.

Sure, EVE may sag some, but it won't go away, like so many titles before it, there will never be anything truly like it ever again, and as long as the player base/CCP continue to support it expect it to survive 10 more years.

My intention was not to imply that there's only three systems in Eve; however, I don't think it is practical to count systems like the way you do.

When I talk about combat I talk about all combat in the game. PvE and PvP in all their forms. When I talk about economy and manufacturing, its about every way you can craft and sell items. Many Eve's systems are a collection of minigames each not much deeper than say tic-tac-toe, or simply calculating profit margins (which is not hard).

But this leads to a more fundamental question wether you think that combinining multiple shallow games makes one deep one.

Its a collection of interconnected shallow systems. And no, I don't think it is that much greater than the sum of its parts.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky

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The simple fact that there hasn't been any serious competition to Eve since its launch and there is nothing better. This doesn't make Eve good - just better than the rest.

EDIT: In its niche, that is.

That's it in a nutshell.

Other things I like are that if sufficient people amass sufficient resources, ships and technology they can take over entire star systems... but then the real trick is to hold them! The game has a complex learning curve compared to the elf-humping MMOs (I wouldn't say a steep one) and nothing is handed to you on a plate. You want something, you work for it.

Eve has the ONLY PvP system I have any respect for. Any other MMO I have tried has, essentially, carebear PvP which has neither sufficient risk or sufficient rewards to bother with. I don't want crappy tokens or leaderboards - I want to take EVERYTHING the loser has in the way of salvage. If I lose - and I have many times! - I just grit my teeth, take the losses and plan revenge...

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Only survivor actually, there were others, Jumpgate, SWG, Earth and Beyond, but they all faded into history leaving only EVE to carry on the legacy.

Vendetta Online

Celetania

ACE Online

Pirate Galaxy

Taikodom

Shores of Hazeron

Black Prophecy

Dark Orbit

Star Trek Online

Starquest Online

Some more to add to the list, most of which are still running.

There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein

Only survivor actually, there were others, Jumpgate, SWG, Earth and Beyond, but they all faded into history leaving only EVE to carry on the legacy.

Vendetta Online

Celetania

ACE Online

Pirate Galaxy

Taikodom

Shores of Hazeron

Black Prophecy

Dark Orbit

Star Trek Online

Starquest Online

Some more to add to the list, most of which are still running.

OK, OK, I didn't think that through very well, but outside of Star Trek Online, how many of those really have any substantial populations?

In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways."I don't have one life, I have many lives" - GruntyStill currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

My intention was not to imply that there's only three systems in Eve; however, I don't think it is practical to count systems like the way you do.

When I talk about combat I talk about all combat in the game. PvE and PvP in all their forms. When I talk about economy and manufacturing, its about every way you can craft and sell items. Many Eve's systems are a collection of minigames each not much deeper than say tic-tac-toe, or simply calculating profit margins (which is not hard).

But this leads to a more fundamental question wether you think that combinining multiple shallow games makes one deep one.

Its a collection of interconnected shallow systems. And no, I don't think it is that much greater than the sum of its parts.

troll/10

No, I don't think he's trolling, but I just don't agree with his assessment that it's a collection of shallow mini-games.

Look at PVE, there's mission running, incursions, wormholes, complexes to name a few, all quite different and challenging in their own way. I assume he thinks they are all simple and the same but I don't understand why, I view them otherwise.

Same for most everything else in EVE, the industry is very interconnected and complex, from the mining, to the refining, to the actual blueprints, manufacturing, distribution and what not.

They really are a sum of their parts, end to end it's a pretty complex system and it works pretty well together IMO.

Just look at how many game guides have been written on literally every aspect of EVE, I doubt there's many (if any) other titles with as much documenatation created about it, which does tend to point to the argument it's a pretty detailed and comnplex game.

But he disagrees, we'll never see it the same way that's for certain.

In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways."I don't have one life, I have many lives" - GruntyStill currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

No, I don't think he's trolling, but I just don't agree with his assessment that it's a collection of shallow mini-games.

Look at PVE, there's mission running, incursions, wormholes, complexes to name a few, all quite different and challenging in their own way. I assume he thinks they are all simple and the same but I don't understand why, I view them otherwise.

Same for most everything else in EVE, the industry is very interconnected and complex, from the mining, to the refining, to the actual blueprints, manufacturing, distribution and what not.

They really are a sum of their parts, end to end it's a pretty complex system and it works pretty well together IMO.

Just look at how many game guides have been written on literally every aspect of EVE, I doubt there's many (if any) other titles with as much documenatation created about it, which does tend to point to the argument it's a pretty detailed and comnplex game.

But he disagrees, we'll never see it the same way that's for certain.

Pretty much every single complex system which is built upon interlinked mechanics/systems are built up by more simplistic/basic components. So the whole "shallow to make a system" case is redundant. Moreover the case can be levelled at every game and every system.

Furthermore the use of "minigame" seems badly abused here, considering minigame traditonally means something of an easter egg which is standalone from the core gameplay mechanics and the core game world.

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Many of those players you list rarely go to null-sec and most spend the majority of their time in 0.2 or higher.

Null sec is far safer then 0.2-0.5, where all the gate campers and 1337 kiddies live. A large proportion of pvpers do not reside in null sec, never have, never will.

This is why the 80% is probably a low estimation, most gankers reside in the so-called "pve" areas, this is the thing about EvE, nowhere is truly safe.

Fixed that for you. Gate Campers aren't looking for PvP, or they wouldn't be jumping people - very likely PvE'ers - at warp gates, attempting to get a one-sided fight. They'd be PvP'ing.

It's part of the game and I'm not complaining about it. But let's call it what it really is.

Ganking and PvP are not the same thing, in any PvP MMO. The former implies an encounter where one side is pretty much guaranteed to lose unless they can escape. The latter implies competition where both people are engaged in the combat.

You really don't understand EVE do you? It's not all about "fair" PVP, it's about winning and winning big. If you find yourself in a fair fight, you're doing something terribly wrong.

If you liken in it more to the stakes in real world war and not to real world sports you'll get the correct mindset.

There's no quarter to be given and no honor in losing fairly.......

This, I have a friend who was in the US Marines who uses a sig quote he picked up during his time there.

“If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, it is because your tactics suck.” - First Sergeant Jim Reifinger, RET

Eve is a game where you fight to win, to gain something and so you don't lose everything, it's hard to understand if you play arena PvP where win or lose nothing changes.

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I love reading these stories of what high-level (high risk) play in Eve is like, but I've failed multiple times to get through the first few hours. I know there's exciting gameplay past it, but I just can't force my way through!

It's going to be one of those games that I love to read about, but will never experience for myself, like Dwarf Fortress.

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The biggest thing that keeps me playing Eve again and again is that there have been logistical challenges I've had to overcome - not prescripted either, fate just dumped them on my lap one day - that had a level of complexity and uniqueness that when they were over I literally sat back and said "Did I seriously just go through that in a videogame?!"

Being the only cloaked cargo hauler for a wormhole corp to haul out valuable salvage and haul in the critical components of POS fuel that we didn't have the planets in the WH to manufacture (plus assorted other supplies/ammo that we needed), and the WH was a class 3 which meant its exit (that I often had to scan down myself) was most often deep in pirate infested Lowsec so dodging gate camps became almost a daily occurence...

A do or die escape run out of Nullsec after the system my ship was docked in was taken over by an enemy alliance, so I would not be able to re-dock after I left and I only had a brief window where I was able to refit my non-ideal ship to give it more of a chance of surviving that run, AND I had to try and take some valuable salvage from a corp-mate's ship that I had picked up after he had been blown up in a POS bash a few days earlier...

During a hisec war, secretly using a network of locator agents to pin down the location of a war target, then with buddies hunt him down and fry his ass without him ever seeing us coming...

These kinds of things just don't happen in other MMOs. They don't. I've looked. Those kinds of utterly off-the-wall logistical challenges that come out of nowhere and slap you in the face, and then the feeling you get when you successfully overcome them (or at least get very close and get a rush anyways, as was the case with that do or die escape run) are why I still play Eve. I do take the occasional breaks from it as too much of anything gets tiring after a while, but it will always keep calling me back.

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It is an awesome sandbox but sadly, I can not seem to stay interested in it for more than a few months at a time. I have subbed to it 4 different times starting in 2005 but each time, after a few months it just loses my interest. I am guessing the fact that most things take more time than other games is what finally does me in. What to fight someone, find a fleet, wait while fleet forms, wait while flying 15 jumps, land into system with bigger blob than you, run away.

If you have the time, it is a truely awesome game of possibilities. If you have a RL, family/kids and fulltime job and can not devote more than 10 or so hours per week to game, you wont get a whole lot of enjoyment out of it after the newness wears off.

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Originally posted by Talonsin

If you have the time, it is a truely awesome game of possibilities. If you have a RL, family/kids and fulltime job and can not devote more than 10 or so hours per week to game, you wont get a whole lot of enjoyment out of it after the newness wears off.

this is false. many paths can be played casually. things like diplomacy or crafting or planetary interaction...

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Originally posted by Robokapp

Originally posted by Talonsin

If you have the time, it is a truely awesome game of possibilities. If you have a RL, family/kids and fulltime job and can not devote more than 10 or so hours per week to game, you wont get a whole lot of enjoyment out of it after the newness wears off.

this is false. many paths can be played casually. things like diplomacy or crafting or planetary interaction...

all depends on what you want to get out of that game and with who you are playing.

I can play 1hr/week doing trades and earn lots of money, do my thing or I can devote my time 7d/week to my pvp alliance in 0.0 who want me in their fleets every moment of the day.

The game doesn't dictate how you play, it's the player who decides that.

"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

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Many of those players you list rarely go to null-sec and most spend the majority of their time in 0.2 or higher.

Null sec is far safer then 0.2-0.5, where all the gate campers and 1337 kiddies live. A large proportion of pvpers do not reside in null sec, never have, never will.

This is why the 80% is probably a low estimation, most gankers reside in the so-called "pve" areas, this is the thing about EvE, nowhere is truly safe.

Fixed that for you. Gate Campers aren't looking for PvP, or they wouldn't be jumping people - very likely PvE'ers - at warp gates, attempting to get a one-sided fight. They'd be PvP'ing.

It's part of the game and I'm not complaining about it. But let's call it what it really is.

Ganking and PvP are not the same thing, in any PvP MMO. The former implies an encounter where one side is pretty much guaranteed to lose unless they can escape. The latter implies competition where both people are engaged in the combat.

You really don't understand EVE do you? It's not all about "fair" PVP, it's about winning and winning big. If you find yourself in a fair fight, you're doing something terribly wrong.

If you liken in it more to the stakes in real world war and not to real world sports you'll get the correct mindset.

There's no quarter to be given and no honor in losing fairly.......

This, I have a friend who was in the US Marines who uses a sig quote he picked up during his time there.

“If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, it is because your tactics suck.” - First Sergeant Jim Reifinger, RET

Eve is a game where you fight to win, to gain something and so you don't lose everything, it's hard to understand if you play arena PvP where win or lose nothing changes.

Tell your friend that an old Navy Chief said that he still and always will concider One of Uncle Sams Misguided Childern a Department of the Navy. and also tell him how much time and money was spent on training there Recon how to swim.