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Re: TB.....Again.

Patsy, I don't know whether you are a Green peace plant on here or not, but your insistence on oversimplifying and playing daft on a lot of issues will soon begin to test the patience of many here, myself included.

1. People in the West don't get a lot of TB, firstly, we are generally vaccinated, and have generally sound health which is a great help against a lot of diseases, not just TB. Most of us were jabbed at a young age and are again jabbed in our teens (of course they skin test you first to see if you have it). Where TB will still appear though, is in people with poor health for whatever reason, or those who live in harsh conditions, even if they have been vaccinated. This is one of the diseases which unfortunately usually puts the curtains down on a lot of AIDs or other serious chronic disease sufferers. So the BCG isn't a cure all, and I doubt they bother to vaccinate older people for the reasons others have eluded to above.

2. You can't vaccinate a whole heap of wildlife, with the BCG vaccine, since although it is usefully effective in humans, how the hell you would vaccinate, test or even monitor a load of possibly uninfected or possibly hideously infected wildlife, is anyones guess. You also of course, need to find yourself some people who are of course prepared to handle and deal with a load of potentially hazardous animals carrying a zoonotic disease- you can see how Defra deal with such cases when it comes to similarly infectious diseases in poultry, pigs or cattle-IE destroy the lot.

The answer is plain and simple. Allow free culling in TB areas. Do not allow culling in areas where there are A no badgers or B no cattle. The tax payer is funding this bloody nonsense and has been for decades. Enough is enough. Continue testing and destroying cattle, by all means, but leaving cohorts of infected badgers across the land to reinfect farms again and again is absolute nonsense.

You could even selectively test a portion of the culled badgers and when no TB is found, you could cease culling in that area. I see in the Vet journal my other half reads, that one guy who was part of the pilot cull paid for every carcass to be tested himself, and every one was riddled with it.

What you anti nutters do not understand is that the badgers as a whole population would benefit from culling themselves.

Re: TB.....Again.

Just backed up by some good research and historical data, which will build in time.

Culling is highly controversial and it's not good enough to brand anyone unsure or not in favour as tree hugging guardian readers.

It needs to be explained and justified in detail and if folk don't want to listen then there's not a lot you can do.

Pasty.

Exactly how much more "good research and historical data" is needed ?? And how many more years (or decades) do you suggest we continue to bounce the same arguments for & against to & fro ???

We are all well aware of the fact that Culling is "highly controversial" and it is also not good enough, and totally unjustified, to imply that those in favour of culling are just blood thirsty murderers that want to kill things without good reason !!!

The argument for a cull in certain area's has been explained time & time & time & time & time again !! As far as I, and a hell of a lot of other farmers are concerned, the ones that don't want to listen never will & we must proceed without their blessing !!!

My Sister is in a very similar position to that of the farmer featured by the farmers weekly (she also has a highly prized pedigree herd) and it is fast reaching the point where some of the best national bloodlines could be lost because of the complete lack of action by Defra & the Government insisting on more...and more...and more...and yet more debate, deliberation & pissing about - instead of growing a pair and bloody well sorting the job out once & for all.

And I'm afraid having people like you that just refuse to see the facts, and having organisations like the National Trust messing about with a half baked bloody vaccination program in the middle of a hot spot area is just adding to the problem !!!

And yes I am . But not for myself, for my Younger sister that, along with a lot of other devoted livestock farmers & breeders, have put in a lifetimes work of sweat & graft to get to where they are today...only to be beaten back time & time again by a Bloody disease that is out of control !!

Re: TB.....Again.

Originally Posted by Uwork4menow

Patsy, I don't know whether you are a Green peace plant on here or not, but your insistence on oversimplifying and playing daft on a lot of issues will soon begin to test the patience of many here, myself included.

1. People in the West don't get a lot of TB, firstly, we are generally vaccinated, and have generally sound health which is a great help against a lot of diseases, not just TB. Most of us were jabbed at a young age and are again jabbed in our teens (of course they skin test you first to see if you have it). Where TB will still appear though, is in people with poor health for whatever reason, or those who live in harsh conditions, even if they have been vaccinated. This is one of the diseases which unfortunately usually puts the curtains down on a lot of AIDs or other serious chronic disease sufferers. So the BCG isn't a cure all, and I doubt they bother to vaccinate older people for the reasons others have eluded to above.

2. You can't vaccinate a whole heap of wildlife, with the BCG vaccine, since although it is usefully effective in humans, how the hell you would vaccinate, test or even monitor a load of possibly uninfected or possibly hideously infected wildlife, is anyones guess. You also of course, need to find yourself some people who are of course prepared to handle and deal with a load of potentially hazardous animals carrying a zoonotic disease- you can see how Defra deal with such cases when it comes to similarly infectious diseases in poultry, pigs or cattle-IE destroy the lot.

The answer is plain and simple. Allow free culling in TB areas. Do not allow culling in areas where there are A no badgers or B no cattle. The tax payer is funding this bloody nonsense and has been for decades. Enough is enough. Continue testing and destroying cattle, by all means, but leaving cohorts of infected badgers across the land to reinfect farms again and again is absolute nonsense.

You could even selectively test a portion of the culled badgers and when no TB is found, you could cease culling in that area. I see in the Vet journal my other half reads, that one guy who was part of the pilot cull paid for every carcass to be tested himself, and every one was riddled with it.

What you anti nutters do not understand is that the badgers as a whole population would benefit from culling themselves.

Re: TB.....Again.

Pasty,as Matthew says above we won't be told the results unless it suits the 'tree hugging type',there has been plenty of research but the powers that be DON'T WANT TO KNOW the answers.
The way you are writing you don't seem to have grasped the way bTB works.What pray is the sense in testing then culling thousands of cows that react at the TB test but not testing and culling
any badgers in the same area that are carrying TB - or is it ok for the badgers to die a slow lingering,horrible death while carrying on contaminating everything in their path until they lay down to finally die.
If you haven't already done so (and I suspect you haven't) I suggest you read ALL of Matthews tb blogspots and hopefully you will then maybe have some understanding of what this thread is about.

Re: TB.....Again.

Originally Posted by Pasty

I'm not sure what planet you guys are on. I have made it clear that I grew up on a dairy / beef / arable farm and have seen TB / restriction and even BSE and other shite. You seem to want to paint me as some kind of greenpeace plant. Well stuff it up your arses. In the next few weeks I may well own a little part of Devon and have an interest in farming some beef so it is important to me. You can belittle me all you like but I think I am asking relevant questions because I want an answer to people on the other side of the fence, not my farmer mates who gather in the pub and call everyone tossers.

Uwank4menow you say in part 1 that nobody gets TB here because we are all in sound health and vaccinated early. What the F difference is there in a TB NOT SPOT when you roll out a program of vaccination in badgers who don't yet have it. Yes, keep numbers under control as well if it is deemed necessary. Have I ever said anything to contradict that? Would that not work? It's worked in humans, would it not work in badgers? Is it not worth trying? In part 2 you again seem to accuse me of opposing a cull in infected areas which I don't think I have ever done. I DON'T OPPOSE A CULL IN HOT SPOTS. Did you read that? Read it again. Or make it up, as usual.

CMJL, where did you get that from? Where am I opposing the cull? FFS folk, I don't oppose a cull IF it is needed and it seems it is. I DON'T OPPOSE IT. READ IT. READ IT AGAIN. I'M GETTING TIRED OF THIS. I have read the blog but you haven't read my posts. You just make it up

Phil, Killerton is a very special place, especially to me for reasons I won't divulge and you keep it very well. Don't just paint me as some veggie, tree hugging, yoghurt knitting fool. That does me down but it does you down more.

You all seem to want to paint me as some kind of vegan reactionary because I dare to question the holy grail which is laid out to you in Farmers Weekly and the Mole Valley Newsletter and Farmer's Guardian and god forbid the bog roll of Satan that is Farm Business. But I'm not.

You are not going to read this anyway so I don't know why I'm bothering. You just want to huddle up in the pub and massage your own insular ego's.

Pissed off with this topic now. I hoped for some sensible discussion and guidance about how I might react when the cull comes to my land but it's clear that you don't want to actually think about it at all. You already know all the answers.

Hope you feel better now ?

And yes we have read your posts...maybe you should do the same before posting some of them.

And the reason you are now "pissed off with this topic" is probably because you don't like hearing the truth from people that have been in the job for years.

Re: TB.....Again.

Woah there!

Everyone's entitled to their opinions, which can only be based on their own experiences ... & everyone mightn't agree with them, but if they're different it'll lead to some debate ... & that's what we're here for ... I think!

Re: TB.....Again.

Originally Posted by Sam_TM

Woah there!

Everyone's entitled to their opinions, which can only be based on their own experiences ... & everyone mightn't agree with them, but if they're different it'll lead to some debate ... & that's what we're here for ... I think!

Fair enough but when you keep asking why vaccination in NOT SPOTS is a bad idea and the reply keeps coming back that there is no point vaccinating in HOT SPOTS which I have already accepted time and again and that I am some kind of undercover Greenpeace activist, it gets a little frustrating.

Re: TB.....Again.

Originally Posted by Pasty

Fair enough but when you keep asking why vaccination in NOT SPOTS is a bad idea and the reply keeps coming back that there is no point vaccinating in HOT SPOTS which I have already accepted time and again and that I am some kind of undercover Greenpeace activist, it gets a little frustrating.

As I said Earlier Pasty - read your posts before you post them.

Rather than use the phrase "Not Spots", which looks like a deliberate attempt to confuse or mislead people reading these threads, why not just say - "I think vaccinating in ...clean area's or TB free area's or where there are clean Badgers would be worth doing" !

And you have not continued to ask about these "Not Spots", it is a phrase that has only been used a couple of times in more recent posts !

I make no secrecy of my identity, so if you would like to chat about this face to face at any time you know where I am. I'm afraid I only have a few bits of data and information, that we have been drip fed, since the vaccination trials began at Killerton - but you are welcome to read them.
You can also read the notes I took at the meeting that was held at Killerton in 2010 ! If you read through what was said by Alex Reader of The National Trust at that meeting, and then read what he said in the Article published recently in the Farmers Weekly, You may be able to see why some of us are so bloody furious ?

Re: TB.....Again.

I apologise for the outburst and my possibly unfortunate use of 'not spot'. It's a term I have read a few times in the farming press so assumed it was in common use. I don't wish to give my identity out and nor should I have to. I can assure you though that I am not a foaming anti and nothing I have said or claimed about myself is a lie. You can believe that or not. I may have hugged the odd tree after a skinful but that would only be to stay on my feet.

I believe, and I can't be bothered to look back, that I asked earlier in the thread why there seemed to be resistance in the farming community to vaccination in clean areas as it appears to me to be quite sensible, if funds allow. The only answer I got, I think from Matthew, was that it gave credence to vaccination and put pressure on culling. The point I was trying to make is that although this is probably true, it's not a good enough reason to oppose vaccinating clean badgers. Whether we need to look at controlling numbers of badgers generally all over the UK as with deer and many other animals is a closely related but different issue.

Re: TB.....Again.

Originally Posted by Joyce

Is there a link for that please?

... I think it may be based on a comment Owen Paterson made about one landowner insisting that the badgers shot on his land tested and all four were infected - but then a source to the contrary said only one was.

I expect when a badger has been hit in the chest with a high velocity rifle accurate diagnosis is not always possible.

Re: TB.....Again.

Now that you have apologised for your outburst, maybe you would like to remove the derogatory remarks from your posts ?

No one is forcing you to reveal your identity, but on an issue as serious as this a lot of people will find your comments & questions more than a little suspicious !

Now, just for clarity & future reference – are you currently an active farmer keeping cattle ?

I've deleted the whole thing. I am currently an 'active farmer' on a small amount of land and am registered self employed as such. I will hopefully have a lot more land next year (still small beer to most) and cattle is likely at some point although I'm not sure when. I don't currently keep any. As I mentioned, I grew up / worked for a while on a beef / dairy farm and have plenty of experience of dealing with cattle and we were under restriction a good few times and lost many good cows / bullocks so I know what that is like. The reason that I am so interested is that my neighbours do keep cattle and have had TB and also the cull is coming to Devon probably and I want to be informed.

Re: TB.....Again.

Originally Posted by Pasty

I've deleted the whole thing. I am currently an 'active farmer' on a small amount of land and am registered self employed as such. I will hopefully have a lot more land next year (still small beer to most) and cattle is likely at some point although I'm not sure when. I don't currently keep any. As I mentioned, I grew up / worked for a while on a beef / dairy farm and have plenty of experience of dealing with cattle and we were under restriction a good few times and lost many good cows / bullocks so I know what that is like. The reason that I am so interested is that my neighbours do keep cattle and have had TB and also the cull is coming to Devon probably and I want to be informed.

So what are you actively farming at the moment ? Am I right in thinking you are Organic ?

As for your desire to be informed about the cull, when/if it comes to Devon, what do you want information on ?

Re: TB.....Again.

Originally Posted by Joyce

Is there a link for that please?

Joyce If I can find it I will post it, word for word, I can't remember if it was in the Vet journal or somewhere else, but it was definitely a farmer who paid for every carcass to be tested, and it was way more than 4 individuals I can promise you that.

Re: TB.....Again.

Originally Posted by Uwork4menow

Joyce If I can find it I will post it, word for word, I can't remember if it was in the Vet journal or somewhere else, but it was definitely a farmer who paid for every carcass to be tested, and it was way more than 4 individuals I can promise you that.

Re: TB.....Again.

So what are you actively farming at the moment ? Am I right in thinking you are Organic ?

As for your desire to be informed about the cull, when/if it comes to Devon, what do you want information on ?

Phil.

Poultry and not organic. I have a small local egg sales thing going and a more profitable rare breed hatching egg business plus probably point of lay rare breeds next year. I would prefer a more organic approach but feel you need a lot of knowledge to make is work and probably more land that I have at present so we'll see on that. Maybe something I will work towards as I learn more.

Problems I see with a cull are for one, my local egg customers who are not really country folk and may take offence. It wouldn't stop me doing the right thing but I want to have a full understanding so I can at least try to explain. The profits on small scale eggs are tiny so it's not a big problem if we lost part of that. The hatching eggs would be unaffected as nobody knows where I am (for security reasons - rare breed chickens = thieves). For 2, I left farming in my early 20's as it was crap, literally and there was no money (partly due to TB, BSE etc., partly due to other things). I went for 2 years without being paid and then decided to do other stuff. I was the 'smart' one so was encouraged to go and become an accountant or some other nonsense but instead founded a series of moderately successful businesses.During this time I met a lot of people outside farming and have a whole group of friends, most of whom I would guess, or know are anti-cull. But they are still my friends. This presents me with a different problem. I could punch them in the face, mutter something about 'bloody tree huggers' and end it there but I don't want to. Friends should be able to disagree. Whether this is a step too far is for them to decide. All I want, again, is the facts and good argument and explanation of the facts.

I'm sorry if I have in some way brought this thread down or if you feel I have challenged what you consider to be fact. That wasn't my intention as I am not in a place to do that. My whole involvement in this thread was to try to understand the role of vaccination in getting rid of TB as that is what my friends and egg buyers will come at me with. I'm always very reluctant to get into TB threads as there is a lot of emotion involved and I fully understand that folks businesses are on the line. Have bred rare breed chickens which are good to go in 8 months, I can imagine how hard it must be to try and establish good cattle lines which take far longer, only to be taken down by TB. I get that and I don't want to see that happen to anyone, least of all the poor cattle.

I'm sorry I flipped out but I don't like being accused of being a fake or a fraud, or some kind of plant for Ed Milliband. I'm not like most of my farmer mates. I don't huddle in the pub and curse the townies while not knowing how to talk about anything but......farming. I have the passion back but I accept, a massive learning curve. I'm already making a small living off my little field and want to roll that out and make a life of it, whatever I have left.

Re: TB.....Again.

Originally Posted by Pasty

Problems I see with a cull are for one, my local egg customers who are not really country folk and may take offence. It wouldn't stop me doing the right thing but I want to have a full understanding so I can at least try to explain.

I'm not like most of my farmer mates. I don't huddle in the pub and curse the townies while not knowing how to talk about anything but......farming.

Pasty.

Just give your Egg customers the Facts as they Stand -

1. Vaccinating Badgers in areas where TB is endemic (Hot Spots) is a complete waste of time & money due to the fact that far too many Badgers are already infected !
Trapping & injecting these infected Animals runs the risk of those Animals becoming even more "infectious" !

2. The vaccine currently Available (BCG) only has an efficacy of approx 53%...so it's ability to protect even Clean (Not infected with TB) Badgers is very limited ! But using this vaccine in TB free area's is probably worth trying!

3. We have reached the stage now that in TB hotspot area's, Devon is a TB hot spot area, both TB & the Badger population have spiraled out of control & the only viable option to control the Disease is a Cull. Not only will a rigorous cull, in hot spot areas, significantly reduce the levels of TB (and in time hopefully eradicate it) the reduction in Badger numbers will also mean that the decline in the population of other species of Wildlife will recover from the very low populations that have been observed over the last decade or so !

As for "your farmer mates" ??? We have friends & Family that are farmers, on the very rare occasion they can afford the time, or the money, to "huddle in a pub" the topic of conversation is always diverse & can range from peoples driving habits & gardening...right through to Rugby, shooting, Politics, fishing, farming & all manner of things in between. I would be a liar if I did not confess that these "debates" sometimes included the odd grip about "townies" - but that is no different to some of the conversations I have heard between "Townies" - often claiming things like "Farmers are just rich toffs"...through to things like "bloody murderers, always out blasting at anything & everything with their guns" !

Now if "your farmer mates" really do spend all their spare time huddled in a pub slagging off "townies" etc, then they clearly have a problem.
Firstly, are these people actually farmers ? Or was it a slight exaggeration on your part ?

Re: TB.....Again.

If you find an injured badger you should contact the RSPCA’s 24-hour national advice line on 0300 1234 999. Do not attempt to handle any injured badgers as they have sharp claws and teeth and very powerful jaws which can inflict serious injuries. They may also be infected with bovine TB

After all we are all thick farmers.

Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results.

Re: TB.....Again.

Originally Posted by Phil

Pasty.

Just give your Egg customers the Facts as they Stand -

1. Vaccinating Badgers in areas where TB is endemic (Hot Spots) is a complete waste of time & money due to the fact that far too many Badgers are already infected !
Trapping & injecting these infected Animals runs the risk of those Animals becoming even more "infectious" !

2. The vaccine currently Available (BCG) only has an efficacy of approx 53%...so it's ability to protect even Clean (Not infected with TB) Badgers is very limited ! But using this vaccine in TB free area's is probably worth trying!

3. We have reached the stage now that in TB hotspot area's, Devon is a TB hot spot area, both TB & the Badger population have spiraled out of control & the only viable option to control the Disease is a Cull. Not only will a rigorous cull, in hot spot areas, significantly reduce the levels of TB (and in time hopefully eradicate it) the reduction in Badger numbers will also mean that the decline in the population of other species of Wildlife will recover from the very low populations that have been observed over the last decade or so !

As for "your farmer mates" ??? We have friends & Family that are farmers, on the very rare occasion they can afford the time, or the money, to "huddle in a pub" the topic of conversation is always diverse & can range from peoples driving habits & gardening...right through to Rugby, shooting, Politics, fishing, farming & all manner of things in between. I would be a liar if I did not confess that these "debates" sometimes included the odd grip about "townies" - but that is no different to some of the conversations I have heard between "Townies" - often claiming things like "Farmers are just rich toffs"...through to things like "bloody murderers, always out blasting at anything & everything with their guns" !

Now if "your farmer mates" really do spend all their spare time huddled in a pub slagging off "townies" etc, then they clearly have a problem.
Firstly, are these people actually farmers ? Or was it a slight exaggeration on your part ?

Get 1,2 and 3. I suppose my farmer mates are (or were the last time I went to a pub) farmers sons / daughters and probably not in control of the farm. I guess they'll have to wait till the old bugger keels over at the age of 198 before they get the reigns by which time they will be past it too. But that's another matter. These days I see a few for drinks at our homes as kids are involved but the conversation is pretty much the same. No money in farming. Nobody understands us.

Re: TB.....Again.

New rules since October, have locked down all of ours farm and lost isolation unit to as all on one holding number, feel we're getting pushed down the blood test job, is anybody else who is very long term tb (22 years) feel like nothing is available now to sell on cattle?

Re: TB.....Again.

I would like someone, preferably an animal lover, to explain why they condone the destruction of over 30,000 cattle per annum in the name of disease control, yet apparently culling a proportion of wild badgers is unacceptable.

Re: TB.....Again.

Originally Posted by Uwork4menow

I would like someone, preferably an animal lover, to explain why they condone the destruction of over 30,000 cattle per annum in the name of disease control, yet apparently culling a proportion of wild badgers is unacceptable.

Because badgers are sold as a 'victim' of cattle Tuberculosis not the cause.

The May queen / Badger Trust mantra?
"What part of 'bovine' do you not understand?
The clue's in the name; this disease is caused and spread (to innocent badgers) by greedy cattle farmers, stuffing their animals into cramped, dirty sheds and pumping them full of hormones and drugs. When they are turned out to grass they're trucked all over the place, spreading disease. Simples.
So we need to protect our chosen species by vaccinating them against this cattle disease. It even cures them if they have TB."

Try explaining that the badger is unlucky enough in the UK to host this Grade 3 pathogen very successfully, and to be capable of spreading it to any mammal which crosses its path, including pets and companion mammals.
Even when owners and vets contract zTB, the answer is 'it must have come from a cow'.

Re: TB.....Again.

Originally Posted by Uwork4menow

I would like someone, preferably an animal lover, to explain why they condone the destruction of over 30,000 cattle per annum in the name of disease control, yet apparently culling a proportion of wild badgers is unacceptable.

Re: TB.....Again.

I would suspect they would say that the cattle are going to be killed anyway whereas Brock will scamper around until he's 93 and then curl up and die in a sunny glade with his friends and family around him. He's never going to be so ill that he staggers in front of a truck and gets smeared halfway up the A38. I'm sure I will now be accused of sharing that few so before that happens, I don't. I just read it in the Guardian whilst sipping a Latte in my sustainable bamboo octagon chair or whatever it was.