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40 Comments

the word Allah just means ‘God’ – it is not a name.
as for Christ, Islam does not consider Him God, but only a prophet.
I am not sure I like the undertone of that question: you know that Muslims do not call God “Christ”. So why the question?

well, he insisted in the first few minutes of the video that there was only one God – so I commented that my God’s name was Christ –

If there’s only one god – Why can’t his name be Christ ?

Saker, do you think that Allah is Christ ? Allah cannot be the Father God – because according to Islam, Allah has no son – how do you give justice to Christianity and Islam and the truth ?

——————————————-

Gods live forever – I don’t think Christ was suddenly created when he came to earth as Christ – he has a history – and that before he came to earth, he’s had many names – Ahura Mazdao for instance – he’s been with us always.

According to Islam Allah has no son – so that couldn’t be the Father God, but it could be Christ –

I’m only turning around what he said – what kind of an undertone did you think it was ?

Do you suppose that Christians have to overlook the fact that Islam says there’s only one god and he has no son ? Perhaps what they mean – there’s only one god – FOR THEM –

‘Our God is one God and He has no son’ – that’s a quote from Islam –

I suppose I do get a bit insulted when I hear them say that Jesus is a prophet – not a god – and that Mary seems more blessed that Christ – whom Islam never mentions –

To help provide a clearer perspective on the Islamic view of the Lord-God, Jesus and Mary (peace be upon them both), I have provided provided below an English translation (from http://www.noblequran.com/translation/) of verses 33-62 of Chapter 3 (Surah Al-‘Imran) of the Qur’an:

“33. Allah chose Adam, Nuh (Noah), the family of Ibrahim (Abraham) and the family of ‘Imran above the ‘Alamin (mankind and jinns) (of their times).

34. Offspring, one of the other, and Allah is the All-Hearer, All-Knower.

35. (Remember) when the wife of ‘Imran said: “O my Lord! I have vowed to You what (the child that) is in my womb to be dedicated for Your services (free from all worldly work; to serve Your Place of worship), so accept this, from me. Verily, You are the All-Hearer, the All-Knowing.”

36. Then when she delivered her [child Maryam (Mary)], she said: “O my Lord! I have delivered a female child,” – and Allah knew better what she delivered, – “And the male is not like the female, and I have named her Maryam (Mary), and I seek refuge with You (Allah) for her and for her offspring from Shaitan (Satan), the outcast.”

37. So her Lord (Allah) accepted her with goodly acceptance. He made her grow in a good manner and put her under the care of Zakariya (Zachariya). Every time he entered Al-Mihrab to (visit) her , he found her supplied with sustenance. He said: “O Maryam (Mary)! From where have you got this?” She said, “This is from Allah.” Verily, Allah provides sustenance to whom He wills, without limit.”

38. At that time Zakariya (Zachariya) invoked his Lord, saying: “O my Lord! Grant me from You, a good offspring. You are indeed the All-Hearer of invocation.”

39. Then the angels called him, while he was standing in prayer in Al-Mihrab (a praying place or a private room), (saying): “Allah gives you glad tidings of Yahya (John), confirming (believing in) the Word from Allah [i.e. the creation of ‘Iesa (Jesus), the Word from Allah (“Be!” – and he was!)], noble, keeping away from sexual relations with women, a Prophet, from among the righteous.”

40. He said: “O my Lord! How can I have a son when I am very old, and my wife is barren?” Allah said: “Thus Allah does what He wills.”

41. He said: “O my Lord! Make a sign for me.” Allah said: “Your sign is that you shall not speak to mankind for three days except with signals. And remember your Lord much (by praising Him again and again), and glorify (Him) in the afternoon and in the morning.”

42. And (remember) when the angels said: “O Maryam (Mary)! Verily, Allah has chosen you, purified you (from polytheism and disbelief), and chosen you above the women of the ‘Alamin (mankind and jinns) (of her lifetime).”

43. O Mary! “Submit yourself with obedience to your Lord (Allah, by worshipping none but Him Alone) and prostrate yourself, and Irka’i (bow down etc.) along with Ar-Raki’un (those who bow down etc.).”

44. This is a part of the news of the Ghaib (unseen, i.e. the news of the past nations of which you have no knowledge) which We inspire you with (O Muhammad ). You were not with them, when they cast lots with their pens as to which of them should be charged with the care of Maryam (Mary); nor were you with them when they disputed.

45. (Remember) when the angels said: “O Maryam (Mary)! Verily, Allah gives you the glad tidings of a Word [“Be!” – and he was! i.e. ‘Iesa (Jesus) the son of Maryam (Mary)] from Him, his name will be the Messiah ‘Iesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), held in honour in this world and in the Hereafter, and will be one of those who are near to Allah.”

46. “He will speak to the people in the cradle and in manhood, and he will be one of the righteous.”

47. She said: “O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me.” He said: “So (it will be) for Allah creates what He wills. When He has decreed something, He says to it only: “Be!” and it is.

48. And He (Allah) will teach him [‘Iesa (Jesus)] the Book and Al-Hikmah (i.e. the Sunnah, the faultless speech of the Prophets, wisdom, etc.), (and) the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel).

49. And will make him [‘Iesa (Jesus)] a Messenger to the Children of Israel (saying): “I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I design for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah’s Leave; and I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I bring the dead to life by Allah’s Leave. And I inform you of what you eat, and what you store in your houses. Surely, therein is a sign for you, if you believe.

50. And I have come confirming that which was before me of the Taurat (Torah), and to make lawful to you part of what was forbidden to you, and I have come to you with a proof from your Lord. So fear Allah and obey me.

51. Truly! Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him (Alone). This is the Straight Path.

52. Then when ‘Iesa (Jesus) came to know of their disbelief, he said: “Who will be my helpers in Allah’s Cause?” Al-Hawariun (the disciples) said: “We are the helpers of Allah; we believe in Allah, and bear witness that we are Muslims (i.e. we submit to Allah).”

53. Our Lord! We believe in what You have sent down, and we follow the Messenger [‘Iesa (Jesus)]; so write us down among those who bear witness (to the truth i.e. La ilaha ill-Allah – none has the right to be worshipped but Allah).

54. And they (disbelievers) plotted [to kill ‘Iesa (Jesus)], and Allah planned too. And Allah is the Best of the planners.

55. And (remember) when Allah said: “O ‘Iesa (Jesus)! I will take you and raise you to Myself and clear you [of the forged statement that ‘Iesa (Jesus) is Allah’s son] of those who disbelieve, and I will make those who follow you (Monotheists, who worship none but Allah) superior to those who disbelieve [in the Oneness of Allah, or disbelieve in some of His Messengers, e.g. Muhammad , ‘Iesa (Jesus), Musa (Moses), etc., or in His Holy Books, e.g. the Taurat (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel), the Qur’an] till the Day of Resurrection. Then you will return to Me and I will judge between you in the matters in which you used to dispute.”

56. “As to those who disbelieve, I will punish them with a severe torment in this world and in the Hereafter, and they will have no helpers.”

57. And as for those who believe (in the Oneness of Allah) and do righteous good deeds, Allah will pay them their reward in full. And Allah does not like the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers).

58. This is what We recite to you (O Muhammad ) of the Verses and the Wise Reminder (i.e. the Qur’an).

59. Verily, the likeness of ‘Iesa (Jesus) before Allah is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: “Be!” – and he was.

60. (This is) the truth from your Lord, so be not of those who doubt.

61. Then whoever disputes with you concerning him [‘Iesa (Jesus)] after (all this) knowledge that has come to you, [i.e. ‘Iesa (Jesus)] being a slave of Allah, and having no share in Divinity) say: (O Muhammad ) “Come, let us call our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves – then we pray and invoke (sincerely) the Curse of Allah upon those who lie.”

62. Verily! This is the true narrative [about the story of ‘Iesa (Jesus)], and, La ilaha ill-Allah (none has the right to be worshipped but Allah, the One and the Only True God, Who has neither a wife nor a son). And indeed, Allah is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise.

Thanks. There is only one God. The Father is in the Son as the soul is in the body and the Holy Spirit, His work, flows from His Hands. This concept makes it possible for Christians to see only one God.

I studied Islam a litte when I was young and was impressed. Allah, the All forgiving. He loves all of us, but he does not love everything we do. We need to repent and change our ways. The sheikh is a light in the darkness.

As for the French election, both candidates have immigrant supporters. Not often mentioned in the West.

Marine le Pen wants to give Africa much more economic aid. Also not reported in my country. Personally, this is my opinion, Macron is the banks man. He will give France five more years of money power.

Ann, I should hope you know that arab speaking christians in the middle east call God ”Allah” be them arab christians or armenian christians. I had a friend a neighbour who was armenian from syria, when we talk we both use the word ”Allah” for God, he would say incha Allah, he would say Alhamdulillah, that did not make him a muslim.

Ann, Quran tells us the example of Jesus is like the example of Adam, when God tells something to be, it is…so when God created Adam he made it happen with no need of father nor mother, so when he wanted Jesus to be born, he made it happen from a woman who had not had contact with man. Its clear in Quran that the example of Jesus is as the one of Adam.

Also chapter number 112 of the quran tells us there is nothing like unto God, he was not born nor does he give birth, there is nothing like him.

There’s a big movement in the world today to see Jesus as a prophet not a God.

But this is tragic because obviously Christ was a God – born at the baptism – and Jesus was the son of Mary and Joseph – otherwise there would not be the need for the genealogies of the two gospels – Matthew and Luke – which, by the way, are not the same genealogies. They are the same until David – and then the Matthew gospel says that Jesus is the descendant of Solomon – and the Luke Gospel says that he is the descendant of Nathan….another son of David –

But at the Baptism – the Light of the World came into Jesus and abided there for three and one third years –

and by the way, he almost died in the Garden of Gethsemane the night before the Crucifixion – begging that the cup of death would pass from him, until he made it to the Cross –

and when he was looking down from the Cross – at John, his disciple whom he loved –

He said – It is done –

He accomplished death – the first time a God had ever died.

And then He rose again. Because death could not overcome a God.

But what he accomplished FOR US is that now He is with us – if we want Him to be – until the end of the world.

And its tragic — that a God would die for us, and that the world would not believe it.

You like potato, and I like potahto.
You like tomato, and I like tomahto.
Potato, potahto, tomato, tomahto,
Let’s call the whole thing off.

According to the extant record, Jesus of Nazareth prayed, while hanging on the cross. Whether in Aramaic or Hebrew is in dispute, but he prayed Psalm 22, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” in one of the many transliterations to English. It doesn’t take a trained linguist to recognize that Allah, Eloi and the earliest word for “God,” “Elohim,” which is found in the first two chapters of Genesis, and is at least three millennia old, are dialect variants of the same root word for “God” in the family of Semitic languages. In other words, Jesus of Nazareth prayed to Allah, just as Christian Arabs do today.

No, no, this is what the JW believe (among others heretics). At the Baptism it was revealed that Jesus IS the Son of God (it was the revelation of the Trinity):

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not…
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. 18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him” (John 1:1-18).

“And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased” (Matthew 3:16-17).

“And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. 33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God” (John 1:32-34).

The divinity of Jesus was proclaimed at the Annunciation:
“Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God” (Luke, 1:30-35

at his birth:

“And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. 9 And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid. 10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. 11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. 12 And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger. 13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, 14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.” (Luke, 2:8-14)

at the Presentation to the Temple:

“25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. 26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord’s Christ. 27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, 28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, 29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: 30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, 31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; 32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel. 33 And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him. 34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; 35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed” (Luke 2: 25-35).

I am a Muslim and I believe you make some very important points that should be honestly and clearly addressed. There is no need for anyone to feel insulted by what you have said.

Muslims believe that God cannot be a Father or a Son and that he cannot be three, thus trinity is considered by Muslims and the Quran to be a form of Blasphemy and an innovation made up by people (man-made). And that Jesus Christ is a Miracle of God, a Messiah and a prophet of God.

In present day Christianity…God is three: The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ is God in human form and the Son of God the Father.

From this, what automatically follows is that the each definitions of God in each of the two religions are incompatible and contradictory. You cannot believe in both at the same time. Furthermore, the Quran directly addresses Christians and their beliefs (see below the verses I have added).

Thus, the individual will have to decide which definition of God he or she believes to be the truth.

Just to clear things up (in case you do not have this information):

Muslims believe:
(1) that the Quran is the absolute truth
(2) that every word within the Quran are the actual words of Almighty God sent down by (Archangel) Angel Gabriel to the prophet Mohammed
(3) that the Quran will be preserved in its Arabic form word for word, until the end of mankind. God testifies in the Quran itself of its preservation: “Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur’an and indeed, We will be its guardian.” [Qur’an, chapter 15, verse 9]

The Quran Does Not Address The Arabs Alone In Whose Language It Was Revealed.
It Speaks To Man As A Human Being: “O Mankind, What Has Deceived You Concerning Your Lord, The Generous.”

Anyways, several parts of the Quran clearly addresses the Christians and they’re beliefs:

1. In one of the most important chapters (Surahs) of the Quran named al-Ikhlas (“Fidelity” or “Sincerity”, also named Sūrat al-Tawḥīd or “Monotheism”), containing only 4 verses (4 lines), it states:

In the Name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.
Say “He is Allah , [who is] One,
Allah , the Eternal Refuge.
He neither begets nor is born,
Nor is there to Him any equivalent.”

Notice the verse “He neither begets nor is born”…..this automatically cancels out any form of fatherhood or motherhood, or birth from a father or mother, neither in a metaphorical or physical form.

Notice the verse, “He is Allah, who is One”…….he cannot be anything else than One, neither in a metaphorical or physical sense. He cannot be two or three or any-other number.

2. In the Quran, Christians are often referred to as among the “People of the Book,” i.e. people who have received and believed in previous revelation from God’s prophets. There are verses that highlight the commonalities between Christians and Muslims, and other verses that warn Christians against sliding towards polytheism in their worship of Jesus Christ.

“Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians — whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor shall they grieve” (2:62, 5:69, and many other verses).

“…and nearest among them in love to the believers will you find those who say, ‘We are Christians,’ because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant” (5:82).

“O you who believe! Be helpers of God — as Jesus the son of Mary said to the Disciples, ‘Who will be my helpers in (the work of) God?’ Said the disciples, ‘We are God’s helpers!’ Then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved. But We gave power to those who believed, against their enemies, and they became the ones that prevailed” (61:14).

3. Finally I leave you with the Warnings addressed directly to the Christians in the Quran:

“If only they [i.e. Christians] had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side.

There is from among them a party on the right course, but many of them follow a course that is evil” (5:66).

“Oh People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion, nor say of God anything but the truth. Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, was (no more than) a messenger of God, and His Word which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him.

So believe in God and His messengers. Say not, ‘Trinity.’ Desist! It will be better for you, for God is One God, Glory be to Him! (Far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs” (4:171).

“The Jews call ‘Uzair a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the son of God. That is but a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. God’s curse be on them; how they are deluded away from the Truth! They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of God, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary. Yet they were commanded to worship but One God: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him! (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him)” (9:30-31).

Thank Harry – I don’t know now if I’m too late with this reply as I was a bit afraid of looking here in the past few days –

I really appreciate your kindness to me and I can see that its very difficult –

I suppose one day in the future it will work its way out by itself somehow – – for those people of the Quran and also people from the New Testament – God is Love – both religions agree on that –

I am not an Old Testament reader – its a nice book – but its a Hebrew book – not a Christian book – I think Christianity might do better without it actually – the old Testament has led to alot of Fundamentalism –

And I have heard the Sheik quote about the ‘Christians’ (of the West) and I totally agree with him – I’m ashamed that the West gets away with calling itself Christian – its not and never has been – as a geopolitical force at least –

There were beautiful cathedrals during the Middle Ages – and they really did worship very devoutly – also the Irish Christians were amazing – of course the Roman Church wiped out the Irish Church – but I don’t think that’s Christ’s fault – that’s just people –

And I love the Native Americans and one of my favorite books is Howard Zinn – what a shocking book that is – what Europeans did to them. Also there’s a great book called ‘Short Nights of the Shadow Catcher’ about a great photographer who loved the natives – and he found groups of natives in America that worshiped Christ in their own rituals – that’s amazing to me. They worshiped Him, as a God in their own celebrations – to the Sun and Moon and Stars –

I Like this site very much, because I learn a lot from it.
That is, when they are dealing with geopolitics.

The stories about religion however, I cannot understand them.
Why is it that people take their stories so incredibly serious?
Why can’t they take them as they are, just stories, obviously invented by human beings, NOT God.

It proves that either God does plagiarism and fraud, because the original story has a 180 degrees opposite message (God is a woman, the original sin has been committed by a man, and more), or the Genesis was written by humans, obviously frustrated male men.

There are other stories pointing to this fact.
For instance the story where Joshua is leading his people into the promised land.
But oeps, there are already people living there.

Am I to believe that the almighty God, that created heaven and earth and all living creatures, needs humans to kill the poor innocent Palestinians for him?
Or that he is hungry for gold and silver, because the chosen people have to put all the gold and silver apart for him?
Cannot He create as much gold and silver as he likes?

There is no doubt that this story also is not written by God, but by psychopathic murderous political and spiritual leaders, who needed their people to believe this story in order to occupy this land and put the gold and silver apart for them, not God.

Thousands of years later, we still live in the misery created by this lie.

And so on.

That does not mean that they are not nice stories, that you can not learn anything from them, but they are just what they are, just stories.

I have no problems with atheists but in your case I’ll make an exception.

Now, I believe in a God but I use a different book from the Bible, the book that you quote in your comments.

We are all in awe of your superior intellect, to be able to discern what we believers cannot. For your erudition. For showing we poor, clueless souls (no, scratch that; you don’t believe in souls either, do you?) people how wrong they are to believe in a god. I am sure you have a great smile of satisfaction on your face now that you’ve ‘shown them believers a thing or two’, eh? I’m sure you’re going to sleep better tonight.

I want to ask you some simple questions. What makes you think that you are so entitled that you can insult and mock the beliefs of billions of people who believe in a god? A sense of superiority? A sense of enlightenment? A sense rationalism? A sense of wealth? A sense of contentedness? A sense of freedom? A sense of exceptionalism? A sense of wisdom? What?

Are you sure that you’ve not exchanged a type of intellectual bondage (which I freely admit to) for another?

You choose not to believe in God, that’s fine by me. But please, since you can read, go find a simple book on Respect and educate yourself.

I did not insult anybody, let alone billions of people.
If you want to feel offended, feel free.

Saker is telling one story, the sheik another.
They simply can not both be a hundred percent right, to put it mildly.
So what’s wrong with studying other, older, more original stories.
These stories do exist, they are real, am I offending anyone?
And yes, the story of Enki en Ninhursagh puts everything upside down.
That I can not help.

And what’s wrong with reading our contemporary stories and questioning them.
Could it be that fake news is not an invention of today.
That the rulers where manipulating their people then, the same way as now?

But if you really want to believe that God ordered His people to slaughter His other people over some gold and silver, then that is your good right.
To me this doesn’t sound like the great creator who can make planets and whole solar systems from gold and silver, if He so pleases.
More like the great dictator.

So I believe, that if there is a God, then firstly She will not be offended so easily, and secondly She has given us our brain to think with.
Not to Just obey by the rules of whatever book you are reading, no questions asked.
That would be an insult.

At the outset he makes the correct observation that it simply does not matter who is “elected” by the sheeple of France, or of any other western “democracy” (a musical chair game, as he says). A fact plain to anyone with any common sense (an exceptionally rare quality … sheeple actually _vote_).

I find that people feel comfortable being divided, they would fight anyone who does not share same beliefs. People are fake, they claim they are human kind loving people but deep inside them hold hatered towards others.

Ann, what is wrong with God being One? what is wrong with God not having a son? did christ create the heavens and the earth? did christ eat food and sleep?

People are locked inside their heads, they dont allow themselves to even question the good sense of the belief of others.

Yes Anon, precisely my thoughts, what’s wrong with God being one, even if the believer thinks our Sun or the Universe are God? Noooooo, division is much more fun, and my god is better than yours.

Millions of faketards and zealots quarreling about details of hearsay that nobody has any solid proof about. I often wonder whether these fine and bright examples of humanity have watched the Zeitgeist movies and what they think about the chapters concerning religion. Or was that where they stopped watching?

Here the link to a funny song about religion by ‘Koot and Bie’ (Kees van Kooten and Wim de Bie, Dutch entertainers) “Our God is the Best” from 1984:

I cannot and will not have or accept a “merciful god” who is so insecure as to guarantee after death punishment for ignoring him. How merciful are you to be with your own kids following this “god” example? If you have a son who does not call you after leaving home, will you punish him (for example negating inheritance to him) so “he will learn the lesson”?

Sheikh Imran Hosein, says that secular government is not good (minute 7). Government must be done by a Khalifah who is sent – “chosen” by god and in modern times this means chosen by a religious person or group and if this group reads the Koran (as in Islamic group or person) then we are in the correct path because “government must be based on the truth “truth which comes from Allah… that is what god ordered” (minute 10.16). “That is what Allah ordered”… and “Oh David! Allah is speaking, do not turn away from government based on that which comes from above Allah the truth…”

Minute 11.35 – Allah gives a warning… and of course you know the consequence of ignoring this warning “in the grave and on judgement day”… keeps talking on about the “true way” and “great punishment”, but hey man, menacing is not convincing enough but it does show a sort of desperation as in desperate to convince.

Sheikh Imran Hosein can be all the holy you want or personally need him to be, but he is pushing for a religious form of government based on the Islamic book that who knows who will interpret it when persons like me do not follow it because we do not agree with many of the things it says there because we do not believe in a god who does not care for “his creation” and us who happen to live in it.

If the main powers (France, Germany, Russia, USA, China, etc) get to be governed by people who follow the “rule of god” (Koran’s god, Catholic god, Christian god, any god) this will take the world to a new but darker medieval times, the “Holy” Inquisition again with added electronic surveillance, thought policing, God’s Holy Drones striking form above to those -like me- who are according to the Koran -and the bible-, sinners.. because we just cannot grasp the idea of a god, any sort of god.

Let us hope Vladimir Putin does not become an Orthodox Christian fanatic…
.

“… Let us hope Vladimir Putin does not become an Orthodox Christian fanatic… …”

Putin has obviously recognised the value of promoting religion & church for efficient control of people. Something well known to and used by rulers worldwide since the dawn of humanity. That is why the head of the Russian Orthodox church sits in the official (!) exclusive government gatherings in the Kremlin, no less than in centre of the front row…

Furthermore, Christian Orthodoxy in Russia has become to a considerable extent amalgamated with Russian culture over the span of a thousand years, and cannot be completely ignored by the government, even if it were not promoted.

On the other hand, it would be preposterous to assume that Putin himself is actually a “religious believer” in a “strict sense” (i.e., one that has religious hallucinations): he is much too intelligent and broadly educated to succumb to such a “made in Middle East” trap. (Although … strange things do happen to people as the number of their brain neurons decreases with age and disease … but that would a subject of medicine.)

The Quran believes that Mary the Mother of God, was the sister of Moses and Aaron, the children of Imran (Amram in the OT)!
This is one of the ‘absolute truths’ revealed by the Quran which gives Muslims permanent headaches. Hard to reconcile the historical truth about Mary, the daughter of Joachim and Anna, with ‘the actual words’ sent down by the Almighty God that Mary was the sister of Mûsâ al ibn Amram!

But of course, when you believe that Jibrāʾīl who said: “O FOLLOWERS of the Gospel! Do not overstep the bounds [of truth] in your religious beliefs, and do not say of God anything but the truth. The Christ Jesus, son of Mary, was but God’s Apostle – [the fulfilment of] His promise which He had conveyed unto Mary – and a soul created by Him. Believe, then, in God and His apostles, and do not say, “a trinity”. Desist for your own good. God is but One God; utterly remote is He, in His glory, from having a son: unto Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is on earth; and none is as worthy of trust as God”, is the same as the Archangel Gabriel who said to Mary: “And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David”, you can believe anything. Like “that the Quran is the absolute truth”. You actually need to believe it to avoid the cognitive dissonance.

The Qur’an is inherently consistent. However, if a reader doesn’t apply the correctly methodology for studying the Qur’an (notably applying the correct system of meaning) then they may end making the mistake as you have to claim that the Qur’an is contradictory. These type of mistakes are more likely when a reader passes judgement on a particular theme/topic by merely looking at a verse in isolation.

As part of the correct methodology, recognition is also required that certain verses/terms have literal and/or figurative meanings. For example, the reference to “sister” above in the context the blessed Virgin Mary (may Allah Most High be pleased with her) does not necessarily refer to a direct biological sister but rather acknowledgement of the blessed Virgin Mary being part of the “Family of Imran” which includes prophets Moses, Aaron etc (may peace and blessings be upon them).

Please refer to the following book by Sheikh Imran Hosein on the study methodology applicable to the Qur’an:

All right, I know that the trick of ‘multiple layers of meaning’ for which only the Muslims have the ‘correct methodology’ to interpret, is always applied when contradictions are not so flagrant. But it can’t solve the fundamental contradiction between the proclamations of the Archangel Gabriel in the Gospels and the ‘revelations’ of the Jibra’il (who definitely is not the Archangel Gabriel) to Mahomed about the Sonship of Jesus Christ. The Quran may be ‘inherently’ consisted, but is inconsistent when you take it not in isolation and read it in its historical context.

Unfortunately, the previous divine scriptures of Allah Most High, i.e. the Gospels (Injeel), Torah etc are not in its authentic/original form due to adulteration by various individuals/entities. Hence it is no surprise then that contradictions may manifest when comparing the current mainstream versions of these prior scriptures and the Qur’an.

However, with regard to the Qur’an, which represents the finality of divine revelation. Allah Most High has promised to protect its authenticity till the Day of Judgement. The Qur’an (in totality) speaks for itself in confirming its status as the absolute truth from Allah Most High. It is the defining miracle of the prophethood of the final messenger Muhammad (peace be upon him).

The purpose of this earthly life is to serve as a test for Humanity to determine which of us are best in character; are sincere to Allah Most High; are sincere to ourselves in seeking and establishing the truth, living a life in obedience and commitment to Allah Most High etc.

The truth is out there; it is up to the individual to apply their minds in choosing to imbibe it or not.

“There is no compulsion in choice of religion/way of life” in this earthly domain, however one has to answer to their Lord for the choices one makes.

But when were the ‘Injil’ and the ‘Tawrat’ corrupted? Before or after Mahomed? What ‘Injil’ did Mahomed know when he said that he confirms whatever Jesus said? Because we know how the Gospels and the Torah looked like long before Mahomed and they do not look at all as Mahomed said.

Just as Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) was sent (and with him the divinely revealed Injeel/Gospels) to clarify the original revelation/teachings of the Torah, which had become misconstrued prior to his emergence, so to was the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) sent (and with him the divinely revealed Qur’an) to clarify the original revelation/teachings of the Torah and Gospels which had become misconstrued prior to his emergence.

And could you indicate the exact nature of the ‘misconstruction’? Again you try to go around the question. The texts of the New Testament which contain the very words of Jesus and have been written in the space of maximum 30 years after Jesus and of which we possess written evidence, are exactly the same as the ones from the time of Mahomed. Ditto for the texts of the Old Testament (the Dead Sea Scrolls).

The Torah and Injeel as originally revealed (i.e. as precisely revealed in the original language) by Allah Most High is not available in the mainstream. What we do have in the mainstream are pseudo versions in the form of the New Testament and Old Testament respectively which are translation based and these translations are regularly evolving/changing as new insights/errors in the previous translation versions are picked up etc by Bible scholars.

For example, in the King James Version of the New Testament, John 3:16 reads as:

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

However, the in the Revised Standard Version of the New Testament (which proceeded the King James Version), Bible scholars have amended the translation to the following:

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”

Note that in the revised translation the term “begotten” (which informs the essence of the Trinity concept in mainstream Christian ideology!) has been removed because the Bible scholars feel that this is a fabrication and should not be part of the verse.

There are other examples that can be quoted and there is much credible research out there to show the various shortcomings with the various translations available in the public domain.

I know this is a very sensitive topic and this is why Allah Most High has instructed the Muslims to preach the truth in a manner that is non-combative and underpinned with wisdom.

You may be aware of the 5 stages of human awakening which are sequenced as follows: denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance.

Typically, when faced with a reality that does not conform with the view(s) we have long held, the cognitive dissonance that typically results leads to denial…I have also been through this experience and can acknowledge how challenging it can be! However, if we are genuinely truthful to ourselves, we will break through the mental shackles that we subject ourselves to in this first stage to ultimately progress to the stage of realizing true enlightenment.

My suggestion to you is to grapple with the Qur’an (which is still available in the original Arabic text as revealed by Allah Most High) and apply your mind to come to terms with the truth. As a start one can refer to the English translations widely available, which in many cases do generally capture the essence of the meaning of the actual Arabic revelation, however the translations can have shortcomings because of the deep/profound nature of the meanings of the original Arabic which a relatively shallow language such as English may not be able to fully capture. Ideally it’s best to try to understand the Qur’an through its Arabic origins which naturally entails spending time learning the language.
I also recommend Sheikh Imran Hosein’s book on the study methodology applicable to the Qur’an which is a very useful resource for those who are wishing to grapple intimately with the Qur’an:http://www.imranhosein.org/inhmedia/books/MethodologyforStudyoftheQuran.pdf

As I have mentioned previously, “there is no compulsion in choice of religion/way of life…” (Quran Chapter 2, verse 256) in this earthly domain, i.e. nobody has a right to impose their beliefs on you, however one has to answer to their Lord for the choices one makes.

Do you know that the Christian Scriptures have been written in the Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek languages? We don’t need Arabic for their understanding. Neither the ‘methodology’ that you try to push down our throats. The translations of the Quran that are available to us are made by your most qualified Islamic scholars who offer us copious commentaries and interpretations.
FYI, the correct text of John 3:16 is the KJV one which is translated from the Greek text of John (incidentally the oldest documentary evidence of a Gospel we posses – cca 200AD). The Revised Standard is the false translation.
I would suggest that you grapple with our texts and with our methodology in interpreting them. But that is what Muslims fear the most.

I will rephrase my earlier comment…the Torah and Injeel as originally revealed, i.e. as precisely revealed in the original text by Allah Most High is not available in the mainstream. What we do have are pseudo versions which incorporate significant amounts of human interpretation, assumption, conjecture etc.

So if the original text is not available, how can you be absolutely sure that the material is the absolute truth from Allah Most High?!

In contrast, the mainstream Arabic version of the Qur’an available today can be traced back directly to the original text as revealed by Allah Most High to the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and that is why we Muslims are 100% certain that the Arabic Qur’an that we have in our possession is the absolute truth from Allah Most High!

The same certainty cannot be expressed regarding the pseudo versions of the Torah and Injeel that are available in the mainstream today.

Refer to Chapter 3 (The Books of Revelation and Scripture – A Comparison of Judaism, Christianity and Islam) of the following book (The Cross & The Crescent An Interfaith Dialogue between Christianity and Islam) for an exposition of the authenticity status of the Qur’an vs Torah vs Gospels vs Psalms currently available in the mainstream:

The aforementioned book, written by Jerald F. Dirks, who is a Bible as well Qur’an scholar, clearly demonstrates that of the major divine scriptures sent by Allah Most High, it is only the Qur’an that is still available in the original unadulterated text as divinely revealed and therefore, it is only the Qur’an that we have full confidence that it is the absolute truth from the Lord!

I also recommend the following talk: How the Bible Led Me to Islam: The Story of a Former Christian Youth Minister – Joshua Evans:

Brother Joshua Evans explains some of the distortions that have crept into the Bible and what convinced him to accept the Qur’an as the final and remaining absolute truth from Allah Most High.

With the advises and insights I have shared with you during this discussion thread I will now arrest my case because I feel I have given you sufficient food for thought and I will now leave it to you to make up your own mind on the matter. I will however close off with the following english translation excerpt of verses 82-85 of Surah Al-Ma’idah (Chapter 5) from the Qur’an:

“…you will find the nearest of them in affection to the believers those who say, “We are Christians.” That is because among them are priests and monks and because they are not arrogant. And when they hear what has been revealed to the Messenger, you see their eyes overflowing with tears because of what they have recognized of the truth. They say, “Our Lord, we have believed, so register us among the witnesses. And why should we not believe in Allah and what has come to us of the truth? And we aspire that our Lord will admit us [to Paradise] with the righteous people.” So Allah rewarded them for what they said with gardens [in Paradise] beneath which rivers flow, wherein they abide eternally. And that is the reward of doers of good.”

Allah is not the God of the Hebrews and the Christians, the Old and New Testaments. In fact, Allah was a supreme god worshiped by pagan Arabs long before Mohammed came to be. When Mohammed claimed to be a prophet of Allah, he was referring to the major idol in Mecca that the pagan Arabs praised and prayed to with deep reference in the place with other pagan gods in the Kaba. Allah had three daughters and they were well-known in the Arabian mythological folklore. Look them up.

When Mohammed claimed Allah is like the God of the Hebrews and of the Christians from the Scriptures, he violated the First Commandment that the Lord God gave to Moses:

“You shall have no other gods before Me.”

The most revered prophet Moses completely understood what was that meaning. Mohammed didn’t. Or at least he didn’t understand the First Commandment in the Hebraic context of the Tanakh. Only because Allah was a supreme god above others in the Kaba and that was all that mattered to Mohammed just after his followers conquered Mecca and savagely murdered the occupants.

A very timely and necessary clarification. The completely wrong idea that Islam is a ‘Christian heresy’ continues to impede the understanding of what Islam really is and push the idea that Christianity and Islam have something in common which would override their fundamental antagonism. It is falsely attributed to Saint John of Damascus, the first Christian Father to unmask and combat the ‘heresy of the Ishmaelites’.
Here is the relevant excerpt from his great work ‘The Fount of Knowledge’, the chapter “Heresies in Epitome: How They Began and Whence They Drew Their Origin”:

“There is also the superstition of the Ishmaelites which to this day prevails and keeps people in error, being a forerunner of the Antichrist. They are descended from, Ishmael, [who] was born to Abraham of Agar, and for this reason they are called both Agarenes and Ishmaelites… From that time to the present a false prophet named Mohammed has appeared in their midst. This man, after having chanced upon the Old and New Testaments and likewise, it seems, having conversed with an Arian monk, devised HIS OWN HERESY. Then, having insinuated himself into the good graces of the people by a show of seeming piety, he gave out that a certain book had been sent down to him from heaven. He had set down some ridiculous compositions in this book of his and he gave it to them as an object of veneration.”

The mantra “Islam as ‘Christian heresy'” contains, in the present mental climate which deem ‘heresies’ as manifestations of democratic ‘free-thinking’ opposed to the falsifications of ‘organized religion’, the suggestion that Islam is ‘more true’ than Christianity which is the result of a fraud perpetrated by the oppressing oligarchs to keep people in subjection.

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