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This is a cross post from the /r/Guildwars2 Reddit community that I thought you all should read. It doesn't apply to all but definately does to the majority.

God save me from some aspects of the MMO community. You people are impossible. You have ruined a ton of AAA games in the last few years - you DEMAND treadmill gated endgame, beat it in a month, and then whine and abandon a game for not having enough content (you all know exactly the games I am talking about). Now a game has to literally FORCE you to stop doing the same mindless activity over and over and actually do different things to enjoy endgame, and you all bitch and whine because you can't grind yourself to boredom in a month like you have done with every other MMO.

You are destroying the viability of MMOs by being entitled impatient kids who can't make fun for yourself, you have to have a game hand it all to you on a silver platter and whine and bitch if you don't get it fast enough, or complain because you have to work hard to get something you want because they won't let you run the easiest dungeon over and over or run the same dynamic event over and over. Fuck everyone whining about this.

You all keep acting like this, you realize NO MMO WILL EVER SATISFY YOU. You will buy a new MMO, play it for a month - bitch and whine - and then abandon it and the company will lose money. What will happen in 5-10 years? Nobody will be making MMOs anymore, because they will simply not be profitable.

Maybe the problem isn't the MMO, maybe the problem is you. Maybe you need to examine the way you approach an MMO - many of you will spend hours playing a FPS with no progression because it is fun - and then you whine because spvp has no progression and say so "what incentive do I have to do spvp if I don't get better gear?" (Actual statement I have heard).

Many of you will spend hours exploring the world in Skryim, doing tons of side-quests, and yet whine and complain because all there is to do in GW2 is explore the world and run dungeons and do events. That is like rushing to finish the storyline quests in Skyrim and then complaining that the game has almost no content.

Why can't we as an MMO community take the attitude we bring to FPS games, RPG games, and apply it to an MMO? Too many damn players feel like the only thing that motivates them in an MMO is the "carrot" of gear always being held out in front of them (and don't know what to do with themselves without it) - and you are destroying the genre. You need to fix that shit before you destroy the genre that we love.

We take the attitude of playing games for FUN in almost every other genre, so why can't we do it for MMOs too?

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I'd like to take that carrot and stick it where the sun don't shine. It's not just MMO's it's everything. This generation is hopeless. All they do is complain about anything that even has the slightest hint of difficulty. Kids today can't hardly tie their shoes. At the age of 7 I was programming my parents VCR for them. A bunch of lazy idiots from my generation apparently raised a bunch of even more lazy idiots, and unless we can sterilize them or just go all Rwanda on them I don't see a very bright future for America.

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I agree that the super-casual grind-a-holic themepark players are the current issue with the genre. As they themselves don't know what they really want, and then jump on the bandwagon of a new MMO without actually knowing anything about it. Then, they attack anyone who posts a single ounce of criticism allowing the developers 100% motion to make a horrible product because the feedback they're getting is never negative.

This is why I believe Aion, Rift, SWTOR, and now GW2 has gone the directions they have gone. I'm sorry if you don't see it, but even GW2 is the same-ol-same-old thing just wish more "choices". It is still a grind-fest repeat-a-holic linear treadmill only "prettied" up.

I'm looking for emergent TRULY dynamic content like we had in SWG, DAOC, etc. It doesn't have to be a "sandbox", but it most certainly shouldn't be as linear as GW2 or SWTOR have shown themselves to be.

I don't want quest markers, I don't want maps that show me the "level path" I have to take or should take, and I most certainly do NOT want "locked in" generic classes like "Warrior" or "Cleric".

All in all a good post from Reddit, which is rare.

The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.

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Well gw2 is a start, can't wait until mop launches and the gear addicts go play that.

I think the problems are1 players2 the subscription model that encouraged mass grinding to get your moneys worth3 lazy developers slapping loot on things to get people to play, rather than making games fun to play

I would like mmos to start charging per in game time rather than monthly sub, then the power gamers pay more. The subscription model is reverse socialism it has the majority of players (casual) paying for content mostly consumed by the minority (hardcores, who bugger off back to wow moaning about lack of content anyway)

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Don't let the companies off the hook, they helped the cause the cycle that led to what this is, and although it may not be 100% the correct place to blame, it was likely WoW that started it.

The problem is games used to be tougher, longer and you had to work to achieve things. Players were happy when they did achieve because of this but at the same time they THOUGHT they didn't like things to be hard and take a long time to accomplish. The fundamental thing is gamers often times don't know what it is they actually like. They think they want a change but if you change the game that way they get bored and quit.

Because of this, games started making themselves easier, faster and all around more casual friendly to steal the players away from the competition. The first and biggest example of this is WoW, and even it has gotten easier and faster as it has aged in order to keep competitors from stealing from it.

So the companies are partially to blame because they give players what they THINK they want in order to get them in the door. Those players get bored so quickly because by getting everything they thought they wanted the game became far too fast and easy. They then jump ship in 2 weeks to 3 months to the next title giving them what they think they want and they become perpetual MMO hoppers, jumping on each new release hoping it will hold their attention while being easy and quick (3 things that cannot go together ever. If something is quick and easy, it has no way of holding you attention for a long time by default).

This means it is both companies and gamers fault and they are feeding into each other which is why it just gets worse and worse. And yes, the only way it is going to change is with the MMO industry dying off and a hybrid breed of lots of players online with some interaction with one another with a very casual experience but that doesn't come close to resembling MMOs.

I have actually supported some smaller/indie MMOs that I felt had a lot of problems, simply because they were trying new and different things and I wanted to show there is a market for such change. Most people would never think of using their money in that way though and instead will by the new major MMO every couple months and the new CoD every year while bitching that nothing is changing, yet they can't see that by constantly giving $60 to the companies that aren't changing anything, nothing will change.

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I dont get dissapointed in mmo's since I have realistic expectations. It's hilarious to see people whine about so many games, often they are even right about many things, but the sad part is that they really should have seen it coming.

Diablo 3 was a good game imo, it was exactly what I thought it would be, and it's absolutely crazy how people got broken and enraged over it, because these fools had been waiting 10 years for the game and the final product did not meet their carefully crafted expectations which were purely based on imagination. What else can it be? A launch day does not magically turn products into something else.

I think it's more than fine to want some change and new things in the genre, I want that too. But I dont think it's fine to get enraged over games that dont bring some shit that a person wants but was never promised. Also common problem seems to be, that kids are not satisfied, the features are there in full force, but they do not fit the perfectly crafted image out of ass that is in the head of the special customer.

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Complete fanboy nonsense from someone who does not understand market mechanics. It is quite simple, companies create products which customers like. If they don't like it then they wont buy it, period. You cant ever say that it is the customers fault for not liking your product and that is what essentially this post is saying.

So the statement that the genre is being ruined because customers dont like a certain aspect of an MMO is complete rubbish. Companies need to figure out what works and what does not, you as a consumer have only one obligation and that is to buy the products you like. If you don't like endless grinding for gear then dont buy those games but that does not mean that it can be assumed that replacing endless grinding for gear with anything will make customers like your game.

Now I am not saying that customers dont like what GW 2 has to offer as replacement for endgame, gear grinding but if they don't like it then they don't. Companies need to figure out what they like instead and cant blame customers for not liking what they do.

Also, comparing apples (FPS) to oranges (MMORPGs) is stupid. You can't say that what makes FPS fun can be directly applied to MMORPGs, they are two different type of games.

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Originally posted by Yamota

Complete fanboy nonsense from someone who does not understand market mechanics. It is quite simple, companies create products which customers like. If they don't like it then they wont buy it, period. You cant ever say that it is the customers fault for not liking your product and that is what essentially this post is saying.

So the statement that the genre is being ruined because customers dont like a certain aspect of an MMO is complete rubbish. Companies need to figure out what works and what does not, you as a consumer have only one obligation and that is to buy the products you like. If you don't like endless grinding for gear then dont buy those games but that does not mean that it can be assumed that replacing endless grinding for gear with anything will make customers like your game.

Now I am not saying that customers dont like what GW 2 has to offer as replacement for endgame, gear grinding but if they don't like it then they don't. Companies need to figure out what they like instead and cant blame customers for not liking what they do.

However, you can also persuade your customer to like what you offer. It happens all the time. Change is hard though, it's easier to sell a product to someone who is already familar and likes what you have to offer but it isn't the only way to do it.

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Originally posted by Yamota

Complete fanboy nonsense from someone who does not understand market mechanics. It is quite simple, companies create products which customers like. If they don't like it then they wont buy it, period. You cant ever say that it is the customers fault for not liking your product and that is what essentially this post is saying.

So the statement that the genre is being ruined because customers dont like a certain aspect of an MMO is complete rubbish. Companies need to figure out what works and what does not, you as a consumer have only one obligation and that is to buy the products you like. If you don't like endless grinding for gear then dont buy those games but that does not mean that it can be assumed that replacing endless grinding for gear with anything will make customers like your game.

Now I am not saying that customers dont like what GW 2 has to offer as replacement for endgame, gear grinding but if they don't like it then they don't. Companies need to figure out what they like instead and cant blame customers for not liking what they do.

I don't know man. A lot of people watch reality TV and bad Movie remakes and it has been ruining the quality of both forms of entertainment. When a good movie does come out I see a lot of complaints from the same people because it didn't have enough explosions etc.....

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This guy made some excellent points. I believe people play the MMO genre more as an addiction (content locust with an endless lust for power) than to actually have fun (just playing and enjoying whatever the game offers), which is why you see this kind of complaints and excessive bashing (what is really the point of going out of your way to spend time mindless bashing games? not talking about the valid complaints here, just talking about the unholy crusaders) while they are basically nonexistant for single player games.

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Originally posted by Xzen

Originally posted by Yamota

Complete fanboy nonsense from someone who does not understand market mechanics. It is quite simple, companies create products which customers like. If they don't like it then they wont buy it, period. You cant ever say that it is the customers fault for not liking your product and that is what essentially this post is saying.

So the statement that the genre is being ruined because customers dont like a certain aspect of an MMO is complete rubbish. Companies need to figure out what works and what does not, you as a consumer have only one obligation and that is to buy the products you like. If you don't like endless grinding for gear then dont buy those games but that does not mean that it can be assumed that replacing endless grinding for gear with anything will make customers like your game.

Now I am not saying that customers dont like what GW 2 has to offer as replacement for endgame, gear grinding but if they don't like it then they don't. Companies need to figure out what they like instead and cant blame customers for not liking what they do.

I don't know man. A lot of people watch reality TV and bad Movie remakes and it has been ruining the quality of both forms of entertainment. When a good movie does come out I see a lot of complaints from the same people because it didn't have enough explosions etc.....

I dont know what you mean, good movies get good ratings. The latest Batman movie was awesome and it got awesome ratings and the fact that reality TV is popular is because apparently alot of people like them and you cant blame people for what they like. Like you cant blame people if they dont like GW 2:s version of end game.

A corporations who blames customers for not buying their stuff is a corporation which will go bankrupt and this is what the OP does not get where he seems to want to blame customers for not, allegedly, liking something he likes and acting like that will ruin the genre and that is just nonsense.

They might ruin it from his point of view, like from my point of view who like Asheron's Call and Ultima Online and think the current selection of MMORPGs are not all that good, but that does not make the genre ruined.

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Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by Xzen

Originally posted by Yamota

Complete fanboy nonsense from someone who does not understand market mechanics. It is quite simple, companies create products which customers like. If they don't like it then they wont buy it, period. You cant ever say that it is the customers fault for not liking your product and that is what essentially this post is saying.

So the statement that the genre is being ruined because customers dont like a certain aspect of an MMO is complete rubbish. Companies need to figure out what works and what does not, you as a consumer have only one obligation and that is to buy the products you like. If you don't like endless grinding for gear then dont buy those games but that does not mean that it can be assumed that replacing endless grinding for gear with anything will make customers like your game.

Now I am not saying that customers dont like what GW 2 has to offer as replacement for endgame, gear grinding but if they don't like it then they don't. Companies need to figure out what they like instead and cant blame customers for not liking what they do.

I don't know man. A lot of people watch reality TV and bad Movie remakes and it has been ruining the quality of both forms of entertainment. When a good movie does come out I see a lot of complaints from the same people because it didn't have enough explosions etc.....

I dont know what you mean, good movies get good ratings. The latest Batman movie was awesome and it got awesome ratings and the fact that reality TV is popular is because apparently alot of people like them and you cant blame people for what they like. Like you cant blame people if they dont like GW 2:s version of end game.

A corporations who blames customers for not buying their stuff is a corporation which will go bankrupt and this is what the OP does not get where he seems to want to blame customers for not, allegedly, liking something he likes and acting like that will ruin the genre and that is just nonsense.

They might ruin it from his point of view, like from my point of view who like Asheron's Call and Ultima Online and think the current selection of MMORPGs are not all that good, but that does not make the genre ruined.

It is actually an extremely flawed view that you have.

True facts is that TV ratings are at their all time lowest point. Cable companies are struggling with constant customer loss that can't be replaced. This is because the TV is so bad and it has chased away many of that viewers it once had. Those who stayed were the ones who enjoyed the new reality TV crapfest. The reason companies put reality TV out is not because it gets record breaking viewers. They put it out because it is the cheapest stuff to make so it doesn't need as many viewers to be successful the way expensive dramas do. Those are the true facts.

The movie industry is also at one of its lowest profitability levels in all of history. This is because many people feel the majority of the movies coming out are crap. Sure there are people who are going out and watching every Twilight movie that comes out and making that franchise money, but the industry as a whole is suffering very badly. The US market has gone down rapidly. The only thing that is helping counter act that is there are emerging world wide markets who are growing as they've now reached the technological point of putting theatres up and building it into the culture.

The same is with the MMO genre. The companies are putting out stuff that only one small segment likes. So yes, those players are buying and playing those MMOs. However, the companies are missing out on millions of other users because they do not know how to make a game those people will buy and play for long periods of time. All of the companies are fighting over the same small market segment and it is killing them all.

Actual facts are that the MMO genre is struggling to make profits and keep it alive. Many big companies have already said they won't invest any future money into MMOs because they don't see any profitability in that market at all.

Basically your argument is missing out on all of the actual facts. Television, movies and gaming markets (most notably MMOs) are having trouble. Part of it is the economy, part of it is because of the crap products being put out there.