While I'm not exactly a friend of American politics either but I value various freedoms and democracy more than state acting as a religious police.

What if the Georgians democratically decide that they don't want gay parades in Georgia?

What bothers me is that the people are never consulted on such issues. Before they are elected, (Eastern-European) politicians pose as pious and have discourses that reflect popular consensus on different issues - once voted, however, they seem to completely alter their agendas and ignore the will of those whom they are supposed to represent.

No, it isn't. Your "real world" doesn't exist. You sure have a low opinion of Orthodox Christians who don't cater to your sensibilities. Funny how everyone attacks Christians for this, yet remain silent when others employ the very same tactics. Violent protest is disgusting, but it isn’t the only thing…

High time you left your convert kindergarten. If you dream about society with traditional Orthodox values, that' how it looks like.

No, it isn't. Your "real world" doesn't exist. You sure have a low opinion of Orthodox Christians who don't cater to your sensibilities. Funny how everyone attacks Christians for this, yet remain silent when others employ the very same tactics. Violent protest is disgusting, but it isn’t the only thing…

High time you left your convert kindergarten. If you dream about society with traditional Orthodox values, that' how it looks like.

It is. They were not protesting against eg. sex-selective abortion that is very popular there.

Kindergarten? As if you have any room to say such things. And apparently it isn't what you say or everyone would be in agreement. Think a little harder no matter how difficult it may be. If your "vast" experience in Orthodoxy is so spot on, why are your statements so often in conflict with those who have been Orthodox longer. Be careful, your bias is showing.

The last portion of your post is irrelevant, as seems to be the norm for you as of late.

I understand why they protested, but it is sad if violence was used to make it be an effective rally.As it is an issue that should be protested against.

Agreed. Violence is always a last option if at all possible and Christians the world over should be opposing such nonsense and sins rather than embrace them and make excuses for their exceptance. I long for the time when Christians will stand for Christ without fear, with boldness.

A TOTAL non-sequitur. Putin purportedly is Orthodox and he and his allies have cunningly used the Church as the glue to sustain their nationalist agenda. Obama is not Orthodox and his country is far more multi religious than Putin's in terms of their being one overwhelmingly dominant Faith.

While I'm not exactly a friend of American politics either but I value various freedoms and democracy more than state acting as a religious police.

What if the Georgians democratically decide that they don't want gay parades in Georgia?

What bothers me is that the people are never consulted on such issues. Before they are elected, (Eastern-European) politicians pose as pious and have discourses that reflect popular consensus on different issues - once voted, however, they seem to completely alter their agendas and ignore the will of those whom they are supposed to represent.

Oh, like the American south "democratically" disenfranchised and segregated blacks.

:(Watched the news on RT today and witnessed the violent and unedifying blockading of a so-called 'Gay Pride' parade. The news strip running below the news pictures had 'Christians block Gay Pride march'. The newsreader spoke of protestors lead by Orthodox Christian priests. What I saw extremely violent attacks on vehicles presumably trying to get the Pride marchers away in a minibus with broken windows and a screaming mob trying to knock seven barrels of .... out of whatever they could lay their fists on.

I have seen 'Gay Pride' marches before and found the over the top behaviour and outfits difficult to stomach, but this protest would best described as deeply shameful and mob violence rather than a protest by Christians.

You are mostly missing Michal's point. Metropolitan Hilarion of the MP wrote a blogpost several years ago about the fragility of Orthodoxy in pre-Revolutionary Russia and his fear about the possible course of the future of its post communist revival. I couldn't find the original link, it was a thread years ago, but I found this excerpt, relevant here:

"(Metropolitan Hilarion) warns against a type of reactionary Orthodoxy that I see all too much of in the news:

:(Watched the news on RT today and witnessed the violent and unedifying blockading of a so-called 'Gay Pride' parade. The news strip running below the news pictures had 'Christians block Gay Pride march'. The newsreader spoke of protestors lead by Orthodox Christian priests. What I saw extremely violent attacks on vehicles presumably trying to get the Pride marchers away in a minibus with broken windows and a screaming mob trying to knock seven barrels of .... out of whatever they could lay their fists on.

I have seen 'Gay Pride' marches before and found the over the top behaviour and outfits difficult to stomach, but this protest would best described as deeply shameful and mob violence rather than a protest by Christians.

Church Militant didn't even begin to describe it.

You mean, they act just like the Orthodox Christians in Egypt and Syria (and other places where they are killed indiscriminately) who do this sort of thing? Seriously, Michael, pay attention and stop making obtuse statements.

You are mostly missing Michal's point. Metropolitan Hilarion of the MP wrote a blogpost several years ago about the fragility of Orthodoxy in pre-Revolutionary Russia and his fear about the possible course of the future of its post communist revival. I couldn't find the original link, it was a thread years ago, but I found this excerpt, relevant here:

"(Metropolitan Hilarion) warns against a type of reactionary Orthodoxy that I see all too much of in the news:

Wise words...one thing that needs to be preached against and with more "militancy" is the anti-militancy of the gospel. Such people who act like militant Christians should be the first to be denounced as non-Christians, before all other apostates, sinners, and other religions.

« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 09:36:54 AM by minasoliman »

Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

A TOTAL non-sequitur. Putin purportedly is Orthodox and he and his allies have cunningly used the Church as the glue to sustain their nationalist agenda. Obama is not Orthodox and his country is far more multi religious than Putin's in terms of their being one overwhelmingly dominant Faith.

The fact is that many Orthodox in Eastern Europe/the former Soviet countries tend to be increasingly anti-American. That doesn't automatically make them pro-Russian, but they feel - for instance - that gay people have enough rights as it is in their countries. Foreign support of gay activism or attempts to "liberate" such allegedly oppressed minorities are perceived as an infringement of their own cultural and religious values and even their national autonomy. The indigenous political class is perceived as too weak to stand up for these and too docile to their Western political and economical allies (i.e. "masters").

What if the Georgians democratically decide that they don't want gay parades in Georgia?

If I was a Georgian I'd vote against it but this sure does sound a lot better idea than an angry violent mob taking justice into their own hands.

Perhaps their elected representatives leave them no choice but to express their will in this manner.

No. Violence against minorities is never right even if we happen to disagree with said minorities.

Come forth and denounce those who bless violence. Come, show the proof. Or just ignore the vast majority who aren't violent, who just do not want immorality to be treated as normal, who do not want naked people dancing in the streets for all to see.

Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

While I'm not exactly a friend of American politics either but I value various freedoms and democracy more than state acting as a religious police.

What if the Georgians democratically decide that they don't want gay parades in Georgia?

What bothers me is that the people are never consulted on such issues. Before they are elected, (Eastern-European) politicians pose as pious and have discourses that reflect popular consensus on different issues - once voted, however, they seem to completely alter their agendas and ignore the will of those whom they are supposed to represent.

Oh, like the American south "democratically" disenfranchised and segregated blacks.

Ahem, the Jim Crow laws were a Yankee import. There was not segregation as such during slavery.

Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

You are mostly missing Michal's point. Metropolitan Hilarion of the MP wrote a blogpost several years ago about the fragility of Orthodoxy in pre-Revolutionary Russia and his fear about the possible course of the future of its post communist revival. I couldn't find the original link, it was a thread years ago, but I found this excerpt, relevant here:

"(Metropolitan Hilarion) warns against a type of reactionary Orthodoxy that I see all too much of in the news:

A TOTAL non-sequitur. Putin purportedly is Orthodox and he and his allies have cunningly used the Church as the glue to sustain their nationalist agenda. Obama is not Orthodox and his country is far more multi religious than Putin's in terms of their being one overwhelmingly dominant Faith.

The fact is that many Orthodox in Eastern Europe/the former Soviet countries tend to be increasingly anti-American. That doesn't automatically make them pro-Russian, but they feel - for instance - that gay people have enough rights as it is in their countries. Foreign support of gay activism or attempts to "liberate" such allegedly oppressed minorities are perceived as an infringement of their own cultural and religious values and even their national autonomy. The indigenous political class is perceived as too weak to stand up for these and too docile to their Western political and economical allies (i.e. "masters").

I agree and understand. Americans (myself included), left and center, are often culturally arrogant and commonly view the rest of the world in stark black and white, rather than shades of gray, based on their own point of view. We can't escape from our being taught "American exceptionalism" any more than a Russian or Georgian is shaped by their own versions of nationalist myopia.

You are mostly missing Michal's point. Metropolitan Hilarion of the MP wrote a blogpost several years ago about the fragility of Orthodoxy in pre-Revolutionary Russia and his fear about the possible course of the future of its post communist revival. I couldn't find the original link, it was a thread years ago, but I found this excerpt, relevant here:

"(Metropolitan Hilarion) warns against a type of reactionary Orthodoxy that I see all too much of in the news:

Wise words...one thing that needs to be preached against and with more "militancy" is the anti-militancy of the gospel. Such people who act like militant Christians should be the first to be denounced as non-Christians, before all other apostates, sinners, and other religions.

I'm sorry, but to rend the Church with mutual accusations of each other is the work of Satan. It is a sure recipe for chaos and a loss of faith. One can see it on this very forum.

Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

While I'm not exactly a friend of American politics either but I value various freedoms and democracy more than state acting as a religious police.

What if the Georgians democratically decide that they don't want gay parades in Georgia?

What bothers me is that the people are never consulted on such issues. Before they are elected, (Eastern-European) politicians pose as pious and have discourses that reflect popular consensus on different issues - once voted, however, they seem to completely alter their agendas and ignore the will of those whom they are supposed to represent.

Oh, like the American south "democratically" disenfranchised and segregated blacks.

Ahem, the Jim Crow laws were a Yankee import. There was not segregation as such during slavery.

You mean, they act just like the Orthodox Christians in Egypt and Syria (and other places where they are killed indiscriminately) who do this sort of thing? Seriously, Michael, pay attention and stop making obtuse statements.

I understand the militancy of faith, but I must have missed the part of Christ's teaching about taking sticks rocks and rioting. That must come after the stuff about seventy time seven is exhausted.

But for the despised Enlightenment we all would be serfs anyway, if I existed I would still be a Greek Catholic cutting timber in the Tatras and North America would either still be under the British Crown or be a collection of separate nations,feuding some successful and some not like South America. Oh yeah, the Pope and the Papal States would have nukes.....

While I'm not exactly a friend of American politics either but I value various freedoms and democracy more than state acting as a religious police.

What if the Georgians democratically decide that they don't want gay parades in Georgia?

What bothers me is that the people are never consulted on such issues. Before they are elected, (Eastern-European) politicians pose as pious and have discourses that reflect popular consensus on different issues - once voted, however, they seem to completely alter their agendas and ignore the will of those whom they are supposed to represent.

Oh, like the American south "democratically" disenfranchised and segregated blacks.

Ahem, the Jim Crow laws were a Yankee import. There was not segregation as such during slavery.

Revisionist.

LOL. Revisionist history often corrects blatant errors. Or would you just accept Gibbon's take on the Eastern Romans?

Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

I'm no big fan of identity politics. That said here the problems is that many Georgian citizens do not understand that that not all Georgian citizens will publicly congregate to carry icons and banned and crosses. Some will for wine festivals, other to protest the govt others for gay parades others for bovine expositions etc. assuming the Georgian laws guaranteed freedom to assemble peacefully. And I think it does. The Romanian hierarchy probably no less homophobic is still more cautious with language at least. Maybe the consequence of milking some EU funds. I think they no longer issue protests on every occasion 20 gays congregate. But then again rampant violent homophobia is itself most likely gay. You know probably people that are told personally or just get the general message that they would carry their cross and shut up. Happy content heterosexuals don't foam at the mouth at the sight of homosexuals.

I'm no big fan of identity politics. That said here the problems is that many Georgian citizens do not understand that that not all Georgian citizens will publicly congregate to carry icons and banned and crosses. Some will for wine festivals, other to protest the govt others for gay parades others for bovine expositions etc. assuming the Georgian laws guaranteed freedom to assemble peacefully. And I think it does.

So they need to be "educated" that a gay parade is no different from a bovine exposition.

But then again rampant violent homophobia is itself most likely gay. You know probably people that are told personally or just get the general message that they would carry their cross and shut up. Happy content heterosexuals don't foam at the mouth at the sight of homosexuals.

That's it - all those Georgians are crypto-homosexuals jealous of their liberated counterparts.

A TOTAL non-sequitur. Putin purportedly is Orthodox and he and his allies have cunningly used the Church as the glue to sustain their nationalist agenda. Obama is not Orthodox and his country is far more multi religious than Putin's in terms of their being one overwhelmingly dominant Faith.

Yes, the true ecumenist comes out. "Multi-religious" as a virtue. Thank God for Putin and his "purported" Orthodoxy. At least he pretends, unlike many on this forum.

Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Non sequitur. Gibbons was wrong, therefore Jim Crow was sustained into the late 20th century by the descendants of the carpetbagging Yankees. Right....

You misunderstood me. When I said Yankee import, I meant that the laws were used first in the North, then imported in the South. Then, later, the laws were slowly changed in the North, but remained in the South.

Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt

If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.

Quote from: orthonorm

I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

At least they have the guts to stand up against "gay rights" rallies. I spent 5 years at a liberal university where I had to put up with such propaganda. I personally have several good friends who have homosexual attractions to other men. However, just because I love them and they are my friends doesn't mean I will ever approve of their decisions. I'm obviously against gay marriage, but not necessarily against remodeling our civil "marriage" system to be civil unions. As has been said elsewhere, while we don't agree with homosexual relationships, the issue with "marriage" in the civil society, is that if they need access to their partner in the hospital, or their partner wishes them to have the rights of a family member, why should we stop them? Our disagreement is over their sexual relationship, not over civil rights.

It is right to stand against the promotion of sexual immorality. What isn't right is doing so with violence. I'm not a big fan of unbridled free speech, so I don't have a problem with Russia, Georgia or other nations suppressing such rallies. My problem is with the Orthodox who react with violence against the gay community.

You are mostly missing Michal's point. Metropolitan Hilarion of the MP wrote a blogpost several years ago about the fragility of Orthodoxy in pre-Revolutionary Russia and his fear about the possible course of the future of its post communist revival. I couldn't find the original link, it was a thread years ago, but I found this excerpt, relevant here:

"(Metropolitan Hilarion) warns against a type of reactionary Orthodoxy that I see all too much of in the news:

Wise words...one thing that needs to be preached against and with more "militancy" is the anti-militancy of the gospel. Such people who act like militant Christians should be the first to be denounced as non-Christians, before all other apostates, sinners, and other religions.

I'm sorry, but to rend the Church with mutual accusations of each other is the work of Satan. It is a sure recipe for chaos and a loss of faith. One can see it on this very forum.

As opposed to silence and looking as if Orthodoxy endorses such behavior? Might as well allow the Muslims to sing in honor of the terrorist Christians to expose our alleged hypocrisy. The Egyptian Muslim author did so with his novel "Azazel" to show that St. Cyril was a terrorist leader that lead the killing of Hypatia, despite research not able to prove it. Nevertheless, it makes a juicy opportunity for the non-Christians. So why shouldn't we be strong in our condemnations of these so-called "Orthodox Christians"?

« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 11:45:14 AM by minasoliman »

Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

At least they have the guts to stand up against "gay rights" rallies. I spent 5 years at a liberal university where I had to put up with such propaganda. I personally have several good friends who have homosexual attractions to other men. However, just because I love them and they are my friends doesn't mean I will ever approve of their decisions. I'm obviously against gay marriage, but not necessarily against remodeling our civil "marriage" system to be civil unions. As has been said elsewhere, while we don't agree with homosexual relationships, the issue with "marriage" in the civil society, is that if they need access to their partner in the hospital, or their partner wishes them to have the rights of a family member, why should we stop them? Our disagreement is over their sexual relationship, not over civil rights.

It is right to stand against the promotion of sexual immorality. What isn't right is doing so with violence. I'm not a big fan of unbridled free speech, so I don't have a problem with Russia, Georgia or other nations suppressing such rallies. My problem is with the Orthodox who react with violence against the gay community.

you'd, one thinks, know that to be part of mob no extraordinary amount of guts is required. more guts were required for the few gay people to walk around surrounded by that mob.

you'd, one thinks, know that to be part of mob no extraordinary amount of guts is required. more guts were required for the few gay people to walk around surrounded by that mob.

I'm referring to Patriarch Ilia and other figures like the mayor of Moscow who have come out against gay rallies. They have more guts than the chickens over in Western Europe.

In Georgia? Is Georgia really that liberal for the patriarch to show "bravery" in taking a stand? Isn't Orthodox Christianity the state sponsored religion?

Devin, yes, here in the US and other liberal countries, it takes guts standing against homosexuality. But in Georgia where being Orthodox Christian is the norm, even the patriarch does not require guts. Guts would be standing against the status quo in a society.

Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

you'd, one thinks, know that to be part of mob no extraordinary amount of guts is required. more guts were required for the few gay people to walk around surrounded by that mob.

I'm referring to Patriarch Ilia and other figures like the mayor of Moscow who have come out against gay rallies. They have more guts than the chickens over in Western Europe.

In Georgia? Is Georgia really that liberal for the patriarch to show "bravery" in taking a stand? Isn't Orthodox Christianity the state sponsored religion?

Devin, yes, here in the US and other liberal countries, it takes guts standing against homosexuality. But in Georgia where being Orthodox Christian is the norm, even the patriarch does not require guts. Guts would be standing against the status quo in a society.

Guts on the world stage, where they are accused to being oppressive and violating human rights, not guts in their own country.

you'd, one thinks, know that to be part of mob no extraordinary amount of guts is required. more guts were required for the few gay people to walk around surrounded by that mob.

I'm referring to Patriarch Ilia and other figures like the mayor of Moscow who have come out against gay rallies. They have more guts than the chickens over in Western Europe.

the mayor of Moscow is, I assume, a puppet of Putin's . So he wouldn't do a thing against his wishes. so, no guts there. I don't know in what terms patriarch Ilia is to the Georgian political establishment. it might be the Church flexing their muscles at a gay parade. Possible.

you'd, one thinks, know that to be part of mob no extraordinary amount of guts is required. more guts were required for the few gay people to walk around surrounded by that mob.

I'm referring to Patriarch Ilia and other figures like the mayor of Moscow who have come out against gay rallies. They have more guts than the chickens over in Western Europe.

In Georgia? Is Georgia really that liberal for the patriarch to show "bravery" in taking a stand? Isn't Orthodox Christianity the state sponsored religion?

Devin, yes, here in the US and other liberal countries, it takes guts standing against homosexuality. But in Georgia where being Orthodox Christian is the norm, even the patriarch does not require guts. Guts would be standing against the status quo in a society.

Guts on the world stage, where they are accused to being oppressive and violating human rights, not guts in their own country.

They have the safe haven of their own country. The world may say whatever they want. If that's the case, Saudi Arabia has big cahonays (sp?) for continuing to make it illegal for women to drive. That's not guts. It's guts if all of a sudden the country is controlled by the world. The Muslim Brotherhood has guts for attacking the Coptic cathedral. Ya...sounds like guts. The world decries, and the country doesn't change.

« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 11:57:07 AM by minasoliman »

Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

you'd, one thinks, know that to be part of mob no extraordinary amount of guts is required. more guts were required for the few gay people to walk around surrounded by that mob.

I'm referring to Patriarch Ilia and other figures like the mayor of Moscow who have come out against gay rallies. They have more guts than the chickens over in Western Europe.

the mayor of Moscow is, I assume, a puppet of Putin's . So he wouldn't do a thing against his wishes. so, no guts there. I don't know in what terms patriarch Ilia is to the Georgian political establishment. it might be the Church flexing its muscles at a gay parade. Possible.

Nothing wrong with Putin... He may not be the most "diplomatic" leader, but he is the strongest leader the world has seen in years, and at least he stands for what is right, even if he doesn't always do things in a "democratic" manner.

The last strong leader Russia had was Stalin, and Putin is a heck of a lot better than him. The only "contemporary" leader we have had that could compare would have been Roosevelt. It's too bad we can't have strong leaders anymore, the longest anyone can actually hold power is 8 years and that isn't enough time to really establish a strong rule and lasting changes.

Still..."strength" is quite a stretch, especially when you want to consider the spiritual understanding of true strength.

Is it really "strength" for a mob President to use the mob to hush his opponents?

Leaders like Hitler, Stalin and others could all be considered strong leaders, despite the terrible things they did.

A good leader is different than a strong leader.

In my opinion, Putin is a strong leader, but in many ways is also a good leader, because he has helped get Russia off its backside and towards recovery. Despite the wide variety of problems in post-Soviet Russia, the nation definitely has already recovered well.

And just FYI, silencing political opponents isn't necessarily a big deal. Keep in mind that you are talking to a monarchist. If Putin uses his power to silence the communists in Russia, then all power to him. If he also wants to silence those who want Russia to become like Western Europe, then I'm all for silencing them. (I don't mean by killing)