PhoenixInFlames:Israel started this one. Airstrikes and killing military leaders = not good, and going to end in retaliation.

*sigh* Can we just sever all ties with everyone in the Middle East, Israel included? It's like having a little brother who knows you can kick ass, and insists on starting shiat with their classmates cuz they know you'll defend them.

Wait, what? Hamas launches over 100 rockets/missiles at you over the course of a few days/weeks, but responding with a precision strike that takes out 1 car that happens to contain the person IN CHARGE of launching hundreds of rockets/missiles is "starting this one"

Oh good. A bunch of people who think a magic sky man gave them a chunk of desert in the middle of someone else's property are going to go beat the shiat out of a bunch of people who think the appropriate response to losing their land is to blow up buses and pizzerias full of innocent people who largely had nothing to do with it.

Funny enough from the standpoint of the history of human society, the point at which religion goes from worshiping feminine nature-based figures to revering male deities is typically shortly after you've seen the move from roaming, hunting and gathering societies that depend a lot on luck to survive (finding food, no ill turns in the weather which push herds away from their typical gathering places, and s on) to agrarian societies that don't move around much and whose survival depends largely on having big stockpiles of stuff.

Stuff you can take by force.

Then it's handy to make God a man 'cause, yanno, war's a man's game and all. All the Abrahamic faiths (including Christianity, Islam, and yes, Judaism)share more or less the same male deity, soooo.... you get this.

I once took a very long bus ride in South America, and was seated next to a guy from Florida. We talked very pleasantly for a good few hours, about a variety of subjects, and then the topic of Israel and Palestine came up. He would later tell me that he was Jewish, but that hadn't come up in the conversation prior to that point. Anyhow, he asked me for my opinion about the conflict and, considering that I was in the midst of reading a lot about that part of the world, I gave (what I thought to be) a very nuanced answer that probably took about 10 minutes to properly lay out.

He looked at me, blankly, for a few seconds, and then simply stated "I'd wipe them all out.""Who?""The Palestinians.""What do you mean?""Simple. Kill every single Palestinian that's alive. It's the only solution."

I sat there, unable to comprehend what he had said. This was an educated and professional man who had a wife, four children, and was able to speak quite eloquently and intelligently about a broad range of topics. Prior to this part of the conversation, I would have easily labelled him a normal, healthy, and friendly guy.

After collecting myself, I tried to reason with him about what he had just suggested, pointing out the insanity of it all, but without being accusatory. It was then that he said the scariest thing I've ever heard, because he GENUINELY believed it:

"You have to understand, I'm a pacifist."

In a single breath, he would go on to explain to me that although he was a pacifist the only solution to the Israel/Palestine conflict was to murder every single man, woman, and child that considers themselves Palestinian. He genuinely believed both of these statements, and saw absolutely no contradiction between them.

As we discussed this further, and he saw that I did not agree with him, he got VERY aggressive towards me. After about 30 more minutes he was so upset that I said something like:

"You know, when you talk about my personal opinions and beliefs, you seem to get as angry as you do when you talk about the Palestinians."

He just stared at me, lifeless, and said "Yes, that's right." You could tell that he would have easily put me in the "EXTERMINATE IMMEDIATELY" group, had he had the power to do so.

After that, we stopped talking (obviously) and just sat on the bus. He had been using the armrest the entire trip, without incident from me, and after he got up to go to the bathroom, I decided that I'd like a turn at it. When he returned, he started trying to forcibly push my arm off the armrest.

"Excuse me, don't do that please" I said."Just move your arm up so I can have the back part of the armrest" he replied."You've had it for hours, and I would like a turn" I said."You are so selfish. You are just like the farking Palestinians" he proclaimed.

As I said, meeting that man was, without a doubt, the scariest experience I've ever had. For someone to appear so normal, and psychologically healthy, after talking for hours about a variety of subjects... only to find out that he's, in many ways, a psychopath... really shook me. Of course, at the time, my reaction to him could probably best be described by this:

Vegan Meat Popsicle:Oh good. A bunch of people who think a magic sky man gave them a chunk of desert in the middle of someone else's property are going to go beat the shiat out of a bunch of people who think the appropriate response to losing their land is to blow up buses and pizzerias full of innocent people who largely had nothing to do with it.[fc02.deviantart.net image 850x543]/hot like the fires of hell all these people can go burn in

Thats the argument I use against reparations but it just gets me called a racist

topcon: I'll say it again: The far left loves Muslims for some kooky reason.

Muslims are perceived by the left to be underdogs. And the left worships underdogs. Regardless of the actual issues. Anything that goes against "the man" is good in their eyes. Automatically.

You would think that in a contest between a tolerant, democratic, free society vs. an intolerant, anti-democratic, not free society, the so-called liberals would support the freer society, not the women stoning, gay hanging barbarians.

But Israel is successful and dominant, which makes them "the establishment" They are thus automatically evil, and the underdog muslims virtuous and wonderful.

onyxruby:This is the wonderful thread where we get to see hypocrites that otherwise claim to be peace loving come to the defense of terrorist organizations like Hamas. You know the same organizations that put into daily practice everything that their useful idiot defenders decry anyone else doing (murder, poor treatment of woman, civil liberties etc).

Never understood people like that, it's like the vegan that says it's okay to eat hamburger from Angus cows but goes around belittling anyone who dares to eat the meat of any other cow or other animal as being cruel to animals. Stand back, grab your marshmallows and get ready to watch everyone flame everyone....

The far left loves Muslims for some reason, despite the fact they're kookier on the whole than America's religious people by a wide margin. We're talking entire countries that oppress women, gays, freedom of speech, etcetera, pretty much the antithesis to social progression.

I'm tired of funding any of it. Israel can take care of itself. And they can continue to kill each other, just keep the U.S. out of it.

It seems a bit unfair to blame Judaism for Israel's invasion, attacks on Palestine and piracy in international waters of aid ships to the Gaza Strip.

So which sovereign indian tribe do you belong to?

As for "piracy".

Israel: You are welcome to dock and have your equipment unloaded and inspected by us.

"aid ships": We aren't listening, nananah.

Israel: Stop or you will be boarded and searched

"aid ships": We aren't listening. nananah

Israel: Okay fine. *boards and searches*

Guess what Israel found on those "aid ships" - Munitions!

And for those of you who don't know what munitions are:military weapons, ammunition, equipment, and stores

For people that can read, but I doubt you care:http://www.humanevents.com/2010/06/10/gaza-flotilla-group-has-violent - past/

He failed to mention activists had access to knives, metal rods, clubs, bulletproof vests and night vision goggles. Fifty lacked passports while carrying large amounts of cash. Onboard as well were building supplies, such as cement, routinely used by Hamas to construct bunkers in Gaza.

mayIFark:NumberFiveIsAlive: I wonder how many people in here will see that the most recent round of violence started with Hamas attacked the IDF. IDF shoots back, Hamas shoots rockets indescriminately.

Israel does their share of stupid shiat, but Hamas ain't the cherub faced baby in this one.

Oh yeah? As President Clinton Famously said, "Arithmetic".

How many Israelis were killed by Hamas rocket, and how many Palestinians killed by IDF?

Something like 0/500?

It's not ok to fire rockets into population centers at all, regardless of how good you are at it.

Israel started this one. Airstrikes and killing military leaders = not good, and going to end in retaliation.

*sigh* Can we just sever all ties with everyone in the Middle East, Israel included? It's like having a little brother who knows you can kick ass, and insists on starting shiat with their classmates cuz they know you'll defend them.

to everyone saying it's about sky fairies, Both Zionism and Palestinian nationalism started as parts of secular movements, Zionism was a response to 1800s European ethno-nationalism and Palestinian nationalism as part of the more broad early 1900s Pan-Arabism. The most religious Jews actually oppose the creation of Israel on religious grounds and Pan-Islamism didn't come about till the late 1970s with Hamas being an off shoot of it. The PLO was a secular organization at it's founding

How about this for a Final Solution: Israelis stop attacking Palestinians every farking chance they get. Maybe stop acting like non-story irrational mad dogs and try to work out a deal. Stop teaching their children non-stop to hate Palestinians.

If the Israelis HAD ANY BRAINS AT ALL, they would gain the favor of the world, and Palestine, by responsibly running the Gaza Strip as a democratic, fair and just society, instead of just another ghetto..

What America did you the Native Americans is an apt comparison. Like Nazi did to the Jews, Israel has concentrated Palestinians into impoverished ghettos and controls their movement. So we agree that Israel is using the tactics of brutal regimes. Like employing White Phosphorus on Palestinian children, for instance.

Quoted for truth. I have never seen any of the suckers of Israel's cock suggest a solution, besides a Final Solution, to the Palestinian Question.

How about this for a Final Solution: Palestinians stop attacking Israelis every farking chance they get. Maybe stop acting like non-story irrational mad dogs and try to work out a deal. Stop teaching their children non-stop to hate Jews.

If the Palistinians HAD ANY BRAINS AT ALL, they would gain the favor of the world, and Israel, by responsibly running the Gaza Strip as a democratic, fair and just society, instead of just another Islamic thugocracy.

Before Israel existed, the Jews bought some desert wasteland (Haifa), SOLD TO THEM BY ARABS, developed it into something productive, which the Arabs then turned around and tried to take back.

Blue_Blazer:marsgwar: nmemkha: So we agree, they have a right to be upset. Given Israel's decades long brutal occupation, violence is expected and arguably justified.

So is the retaliation by Israel. It's called a war. If Native American tribes started shooting rockets at US tragets to get back land, we would retaliate accordingly and wouldn't be wrong for doing so.

Maybe, but there would still be plenty of us saying "well taking their land was pretty dickieh, and so was the forced resettlement, maybe we should give them some land."

And instead of a reasonable argument, I would be called Anti-American.

False equivalency. Israel did not "take their land."

Quick history: There had always been some Jews living among the Arabs in the Ottoman Empire's province of Palestine for centuries. Starting in the nineteenth century, more and more Jews began moving to the region and buying land from Arabs or moving into empty, desolate, unused land. Eventually, after World War I and the British gaining control, the UN proposed splitting the area into a Jewish and an Arab state. The Jews agreed; the Arabs did not and declared war.

In the ensuing chaos of war, many Arabs ended up in what is now called the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Some of them left voluntarily either to avoid the war or under orders from the Arab leaders to get out of the way of the invading armies. Others were indeed forcibly expelled by the Haganah (what would become the IDF). It's impossible to know what percentage of the relocation was voluntary and involuntary. Anyway, it happened.

So, you had a bunch of Arabs in what were then parts of Jordan and Egypt. When those countries invaded Israel in 1967, Israel won and took those lands from the two countries for increased future security. Today, Jordan has said that it no longer wants the West Bank, and Egypt does not want Gaza. Under international law, the ownership of the land transferred to Israel because the original owners, the countries, gave up their claims.

Of course, those pieces of land still had a lot of the aforementioned Arabs and now their descendants. What to do? Answer that, and you'll get a Nobel Prize.

marsgwar:nmemkha: So we agree, they have a right to be upset. Given Israel's decades long brutal occupation, violence is expected and arguably justified.

So is the retaliation by Israel. It's called a war. If Native American tribes started shooting rockets at US tragets to get back land, we would retaliate accordingly and wouldn't be wrong for doing so.

What America did you the Native Americans is an apt comparison. Like Nazi did to the Jews, Israel has concentrated Palestinians into impoverished ghettos and controls their movement. So we agree that Israel is using the tactics of brutal regimes. Like employing White Phosphorus on Palestinian children, for instance.

globalwarmingpraiser:nmemkha: willyfreddy: He looked at me, blankly, for a few seconds, and then simply stated "I'd wipe them all out.""Who?""The Palestinians.""What do you mean?""Simple. Kill every single Palestinian that's alive. It's the only solution."

Its their "Final Solution" to the "Palestinian Problem". Many Jews seem to have same opinion of Palestinians as Germans had of them during WW II.

Talk about your Stockholm Syndrome.

Were the Jews actually saying that they should wipeout the Germans prior to the Holocost? The Palestinians were have been saying this for a long time. And it isn't as if the Israeli's haven't been attacked by their neighbors several times in the last 50 years.

Yeah ever since Israel started taking their land by force, piece by piece. I'd be pissed too and so would you.

willyfreddy:He looked at me, blankly, for a few seconds, and then simply stated "I'd wipe them all out.""Who?""The Palestinians.""What do you mean?""Simple. Kill every single Palestinian that's alive. It's the only solution."

Its their "Final Solution" to the "Palestinian Problem". Many Jews seem to have same opinion of Palestinians as Germans had of them during WW II.

mayIFark:NumberFiveIsAlive: I wonder how many people in here will see that the most recent round of violence started with Hamas attacked the IDF. IDF shoots back, Hamas shoots rockets indescriminately.

Israel does their share of stupid shiat, but Hamas ain't the cherub faced baby in this one.

Oh yeah? As President Clinton Famously said, "Arithmetic".

How many Israelis were killed by Hamas rocket, and how many Palestinians killed by IDF?

Something like 0/500?

Dammit, I can't let this stand...even though I am rpetty sure I am being trolled.

Are you American? How many US citizens were killed on 9/11? How many Afghan citizens have been killed in our counterattack? Are you saying that we are dickheads for being there? Should we have packed it up and gone home once the 4,000th Afghan was killed?

onyxruby:This is the wonderful thread where we get to see hypocrites that otherwise claim to be peace loving come to the defense of terrorist organizations like Hamas. You know the same organizations that put into daily practice everything that their useful idiot defenders decry anyone else doing (murder, poor treatment of woman, civil liberties etc).

Never understood people like that, it's like the vegan that says it's okay to eat hamburger from Angus cows but goes around belittling anyone who dares to eat the meat of any other cow or other animal as being cruel to animals. Stand back, grab your marshmallows and get ready to watch everyone flame everyone....

topcon:The far left loves Muslims for some reason, despite the fact they're kookier on the whole than America's religious people by a wide margin. We're talking entire countries that oppress women, gays, freedom of speech, etcetera, pretty much the antithesis to social progression.

And once again we see the false dichotomy that plagues the thinking of the the far right. "We think Muslims are evil, and the left doesn't agree with us, therefore liberals love Muslims and think they're perfect!" Any message more nuanced than "Yay Islam wonderful!" or "Boo, Islam bad!" gets distorted into one of those two blurbs. "Yes, there are many problems, and atrocities have been committed in the name of Islam; but not all Muslims are terrorists, and you're oversimplifying the issue and painting with too broad a brush" doesn't fit onto a bumper sticker well, I suppose.

It's both sad and frightening that the left is embroiled in an endless argument with a group of people who by and large LITERALLY CANNOT comprehend what we're trying to say.

I'm reminded of the adage "When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail," except in this case, it would have to start with "When all you have is straw."

/which is an oversimplification, of course//it's a very real possibility that one can fall into the trap of doing exactly the thing one despises about one's opponents actions.

bostonguy:No doubt there will be condemnations of Israel's strikes on Gaza. But remember this: Israel would leave Gaza alone if the terrorists would just stop firing rockets into Israel. It really is that simple. Israel wants to live in peace. Hamas and others want to live without Israel existing.

/ American Israeli in Tel Aviv// Safe from the 130+ rockets fired into Israel over the past three days/// At least until their range increases

You left out the part where the Israelis got the other morons land because their sky wizard said so.

onyxruby:This is the wonderful thread where we get to see hypocrites that otherwise claim to be peace loving come to the defense of terrorist organizations like Hamas. You know the same organizations that put into daily practice everything that their useful idiot defenders decry anyone else doing (murder, poor treatment of woman, civil liberties etc).

Never understood people like that, it's like the vegan that says it's okay to eat hamburger from Angus cows but goes around belittling anyone who dares to eat the meat of any other cow or other animal as being cruel to animals. Stand back, grab your marshmallows and get ready to watch everyone flame everyone....

They aren't defending the violence of Hamas, they're condemning the violence of Israel. It's a subtle difference.

No doubt there will be condemnations of Israel's strikes on Gaza. But remember this: Israel would leave Gaza alone if the terrorists would just stop firing rockets into Israel. It really is that simple. Israel wants to live in peace. Hamas and others want to live without Israel existing.

/ American Israeli in Tel Aviv// Safe from the 130+ rockets fired into Israel over the past three days/// At least until their range increases

This is the wonderful thread where we get to see hypocrites that otherwise claim to be peace loving come to the defense of terrorist organizations like Hamas. You know the same organizations that put into daily practice everything that their useful idiot defenders decry anyone else doing (murder, poor treatment of woman, civil liberties etc).

Never understood people like that, it's like the vegan that says it's okay to eat hamburger from Angus cows but goes around belittling anyone who dares to eat the meat of any other cow or other animal as being cruel to animals. Stand back, grab your marshmallows and get ready to watch everyone flame everyone....

You know, using WP is wrong period. But so is firing missiles at civilians. HAMAS usually tarts this. I mean sure HAMAS is a annnoying little nerd, but if the little nerd keeps slapping the Linebacker in the face the linebacker is going to respond. The linebacker will look bad, but sometimes you gotta look a little bad.

They've known this for decades. That's why they're firing rockets in the general direction of Israel ("Into" Israel is technically correct, but seems to give more credit to the Palestinian's capacity to aim their rockets than they really deserve), so that the Israelis will retaliate and undermine the authority of the Palestinian (West Bank) government that at least seems to want to move on from the ridiculous goal of retaking the country and just get on with being a real country. Israel, of course doesn't mind playing along with Gaza's plan since they want to keep the West Bank from being sovereign so they can keep putting up settlements and because the Israeli government looks good to its people when it's blowing up stuff. You can make up your own mind which is more important to them.

No modern society would simply "get over" having the occasional civilian bus blown up. None. All of them would see that as something that has to stop, and take forceful steps to see that it does. If you're unwilling to recognize that, I don't know what to say to you.

RanDomino:Israel has absolute unilateral power. It can simply implement a plan that will result in peace.

Wow. There's you're problem right there. You categorically believe that Hamas (and any other Palestinian group) cannot possibly have responsibility for anything, because you think nothing they can do has any bearing on the situation and you think Israel has absolutely no limitations and simply chooses this situation.

RanDomino:Why are you trying to say Israel has no choice but to respond in ways that have not succeeded in bringing peace?

Exercise for the reader: Of the two regions of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, Israel pulled out of the ____ _____. Since then, of the two, the vast majority of the rockets and mortars have been fired from the ____ _____ side at Israeli c______ns (achieving absolutely nothing for the Palestinian c______ns) -- thus cementing in the minds of Israelis that the _____ organization can [not|indeed] be worked with for the mutual security and of all.

Hmm, let's see... ways that do succeed at bringing peace... oh, I know: Israel should negotiate with an organization who still refuses (and has repeatedly sworn that they will never budge on refusing) to recognize any right of Israel to exist. Brilliant!

/I still think that Israel should pull out of most of the West Bank as well (forcibly removing, if necessary, settlements by radical settlers, as was done in Gaza), but to pretend that Israel has easy options at this point is idiotic.

RanDomino:srael chooses to enforce the blockade, not Hamas. Give whatever justification you like for it.

BECAUSE of what Hamas are doing. What the hell is wrong with you ?

RanDomino:Why are you trying to say Israel has no choice but to respond in ways that have not succeeded in bringing peace?

It has succeeded in stopping the violence from the palestinian terrorists, Israeli cities are bombed, this is unacceptable. Sending bouquets of flowers to Hamas so far failed in stopping the jihadists.Blowing them up did.

RanDomino:Doing the same thing that doesn't work over and over again is either insanity, or an indication of an ulterior motive

Since it seemed to work last time in Cast Lead, i will have to conclude that again you have no farking clue what the hell you're talking about.

RanDomino:If Israel wants peace, its actions have been nonsensical. If the goal is to create the pretext for a land grab in the West Bank, the actions make perfect sense.

If the Palestinians want peace they should accept the fact that Israel exists and is going to exist and bombing israeli cities is not a constructive way of establishing peace.Sure land grab, just like handing Gaza to the palestinians and giving up 92% of the West Bank in a proposed agreement (which the palestinians refused to accept). You sure know what you're talking about.

RanDomino:How it's possible to say that the blockade is not an Israeli action is beyond me.

It is you moron.Because of the palestinians actions, you know: the ones you keep ignoring.

TappingTheVeinBecause of what Hamas are doing. Do you have brain damage or something ?

Israel chooses to enforce the blockade, not Hamas. Give whatever justification you like for it.

Why are you treating the palestinians like retarded children with no responsibility for their own actions ?

Why are you trying to say Israel has no choice but to respond in ways that have not succeeded in bringing peace? Doing the same thing that doesn't work over and over again is either insanity, or an indication of an ulterior motive. If Israel wants peace, its actions have been nonsensical. If the goal is to create the pretext for a land grab in the West Bank, the actions make perfect sense.

Because of what Hamas are doing. Do you have brain damage or something ?

RanDomino:but what you're saying is "Why do you make me have to hit you?"

Yes because Israel is forcing Hamas to declare war on Israel and bomb israeli cities. Which they did when Israel left Gaza and gave an opportunity to Hamas and the palestinians to demonstrate to the world how well they behave now that there is no occupation. It was their choice to declare war on Israel, their choice to move their rocket launchers closer to the border for better aim on israeli cities, their choice to declare 'jihad' on Israel, their choice to openly declare that they refuse to accept the existence of Israel. Their choice to fire an anti-tank missile on an israeli patrol on the israeli side of the border, Are you sensing a theme here ?

Why are you treating the palestinians like retarded children with no responsibility for their own actions ? do you even understand that the palestinians are responsible for what they are doing ? or are you so fixated on your "it's all Israel's fault!" that you choose to ignore this ?

Vegan Meat Popsicle:Oh good. A bunch of people who think a magic sky man gave them a chunk of desert in the middle of someone else's property

Well, technically the land was apportioned out of a World War to provide a culture a 'safe haven', and it was carved out of the territory in contention during that conflict. Spoils of War and all that. World Wars tend to shift borders.

RanDomino:Naturally the Israeli account of what happened is automatically correct, by default.

Are you too embarrassed to admit that you made another farking mistake ? it was a routine patrol on the israeli side of the border, as reported by every news agency. You were, again, very wrong.I like your logic though: so none of what Hamas has said so far is correct because naturally the Hamas account of what happened is automatically correct.Seriously, how low can you go from this one ?

Direct your complaints to Hamas and the rest of the merry jihadist terrorists. If it was possible to blockade only them but sadly we live in what is known as reality. Maybe you should join us.

RanDomino:Oh, a country that's given billions of dollars a year by their enemy? yeah, who wouldn't think that's under their control?

I think someone forgot 2 things: 1. who is in charge of Egypt nowdays and 2. the border is open unless Hamas or other terrorist organizations from Gaza attack Egyptian border security checkpoint in Sinai.

They were on the Israeli side of the border you farking idiot. Why do you even bother ? how many times do i need to prove that you have no farking clue what the hell you're talking about ?

RanDomino:"Latest UN declaration of Israel's "occupation" is part of a wider push to maintain Palestinian helplessness."

Sounds fair and balanced to me!

Oh yes, the UN has maintained a well documented fair and balanced approach to Israel.

RanDomino:Agreed that Gaza is not occupied, although it remains the world's largest concentration camp.

How dare Israel block the border with an enemy who declared war on Israel and target israeli civilians on a daily basis! this is an outrage! do i need to bother reminding you that this "concentration camp" has a border they, the palestinians, own and control with another country besides Israel rendering your latest comment utter bullshiat as well ?

Franko:But has Israel learned that when you occupy a people for like, what, 40 years? and deny them basic rights and access to medical supplies and clean wanter, those people tend to get a little sore about it.

Gaza is not occupied, Hamas themselves say so. If you have any complaints please direct them to the palestinian leadership who denies the basic rights of israelis to exist, israelis tend to get a little sore about it.

But has Israel learned that when you occupy a people for like, what, 40 years? and deny them basic rights and access to medical supplies and clean wanter, those people tend to get a little sore about it.

RanDomino:Israel is kicking things off. The incursion last Saturday that started this mess was a blatant intentional provocation. This is coming immediately after the US elections. They've been planning for major operations for months (I hope we haven't already forgotten the preparation-porn they were showing over the summer).

Total and utter bullshiat, as usual you have no farking clue what the hell you're talking about. The palestinians started this mess by firing rockets on south Israel for weeks and firing an anti-tank missile on soldier's at the border. The ones who are busy with blatant intentional provocation are the palestinians, Israel had to audacity to say 'enough is enough' and actually do something about it besides sounding alarms 4 times a day and sending civilians in all the cities/towns in the south to a bomb shelter.

ideamaster:It was searched. It's intended and published destination was already Israel. So they prevented any prohibited materials from entering.

It wasn't "searched," it was off-loaded in an Israeli-controlled port and the IDF held it for several months before allowing the UN to come in and deliver it the rest of the way.

That hardly accounts to piracy. Especially since they were offered to land at an authorized port and have thier cargo inspected.

Because they have the authority to do that...according to you and in contravention of international maritime law. (I know, I know, "international law" is an oxymoron hurr hurr)

If they had nothing to hide then why didn't they accept the proper port and be searched? Also in the event you didn't know. Other weapons that fit into nice wooden boxes are easy to throw overboard.

Ah, so we're moving on to making things up entirely. And the footage of this action is mysteriously missing despite all the helicopters buzzing around the ships...why?

Also it is clear that you don't have children (or you are too stupid to realize) that they will always test thier boundaries. They might not be commiting a cardinal offense today. But they are looking go a chance to see exactly what they can get away with and how.

So Palestinians are children, but don't call you a bigot!

If you don't find a list of embargoed materials and bring that to the conversation. You can consider this conversation overI'm just making up non-sequitur demands for information that doesn't actually affect the conversation, I am a filthy troll.

Well since you put it that way, I guess I can help your useless lazy ass. I'm guessing you want to poind the pulpit that construction material was banned, construction material being really the only thing they found worth mentioning (I'm sorry, a handful of non-gun riot gear isn't worth mentioning, and calling a farking pipe wrench on a boat a "munition" is just pathetic).

After all you of superior knowledge and intellect and you extoll of the non-weaponized virtues of concrete.

Y'all are aware that Gaza got didn't get rebuilt after the last time Israel bombed it to shiat, right?

I look forward to a discussion on the supreme evils of the devil Israeldefeating more strawmen I set up and thier extreme oppression on a mon-existent nation called Palestine and the non-existent "palestinian" peoplesblathering tired old saws about dirty muslims all being "arabs" because admitting the Palestinians exist is politically inconvenient. No embargo list, no discussion.Also here's another non sequitur

Lern 2 spel nub. lulz.

Look kiddo, they raided a ship and took its cargo. They did it because of a blockade, but basically everyone but Israel and shills for Israel agrees the blockade was illegal. No one did anything about it for the same reason we don't do anything about Darfur, but a spade is a spade, a raid is a raid, and calling it "piracy" is the kind of passive-aggressive technically correct that's good clean fun.

You wouldn't even CARE if you weren't emotionally invested in shilling for Israel for some obtuse reason. I mean, let's be honest, the two ethnic groups are the mediterranean equivalent of rednecks having a feud, and have been since foreverty ago. There were terrorist actions being committed by both sides back in the days of the Ottoman Empire, I learned that when Tatsuma brought up "evils of Islam in the 1930s" and someone else countered with some local Jewish atrocity of some relatively equivalent value. It's what they did, because at the time they were peasants in a slowly-collapsing feudal empire. Hell half the problem with the land disputes is that the local land had anywhere from 2 to 5 different owners. Absentee landlords in Turkey, local squatters, the local squatters they'd kicked off of it up to 2 generations ago, OTHER absentee landlords with equally specious claims of ownership, bedouins wandering through and saying, "oh yeah, I own that land. Y'all pay cash, right?"

Palestine's shooting rockets, they're dirty and horrible. Israel's embargoing the "non-existent country" that is not allowed sovereignty but somehow not their responsibility. Bombings and shootings and poisoning wells is commonplace.

But I'm not supposed to point out when ONE side pulls some bullshiat because it's only fair if I take the side of...

Every other day it seems I run into people who don't understand that just because someone is living in poverty, hungry, sick, almost powerless and weak, that doesn't automatically make them the good guys. I know the US loves an underdog, but some folks are just plain stupid about this.

Gosh that sooo sounds like: "The beatings will continue until moral improves."

I can't disagree with that, because it seems to be true.

Israel has maintained a policy of escalated response in return to any attack. We, the US, have supported that policy because we felt it was the only way to enforce the illusion of peace: when faced with overwhelming losses for every aggressive action, only idiots - or irrational idealists - would fight.

Anyone can point out how this leads to a cycle of never ending retaliation. Here's the thing though, Israel is too strong to be beaten by them. The rocket attacks are completely futile, and they only incur more causalities on their own side. It doesn't matter if it seems unfair, or even if it IS unfair. The rational thing to do is to realize they lost the physical fight, they cannot win with violence, and suck up the loss of pride and the various indignities (unfairly?) imposed upon them with humility until they can be seen as rational participants in the world as a whole, and make their case with words.

This is not punitive, or targeting them specifically. This was demonstrated by germany & japan from ww2, blacks and women in pre-equality/suffrage america, and hell, the entire body of arab nations in the 1948 arab-israeli war.

In a way, they hold all the power. They simply have to want peace, in order to have it.

Every other day it seems I run into people who don't understand that just because someone is living in poverty, hungry, sick, almost powerless and weak, that doesn't automatically make them the good guys. I know the US loves an underdog, but some folks are just plain stupid about this.

The truth of the matter is very simple: As soon as Palestinians care more about their own children and lives than they do about killing jews, their whole world is going to get a lot better. Once they focus on making their lives better and not other people's worse, they'll quickly have access to industry, business, education, health care, art, technology, and maybe even be able to participate in global culture.

Kids throwing rocks at tanks is a powerful emotional image of defiance. It's easy to forget which side is actually the aggressor, and why the tanks had to be there in the first place.

Sadly, they've got that head disease called religion, and it's apparently better to have your children dismembered by return fire than to, say, not fire mortars from their bedroom or a school.

Communist_Manifesto:I'd continually launch rockets at you as well if you kept me segregated in an apartheid prison state and were never going to let me out ever. It's time for Israel to give gaza and the west bank back to the palesitinians and let them administer themselves as a sovereign nation. If they still continue the rocket fire farkery after that, then nuke them for all I care. At least you could say you tried instead of looking like a bunch of complete assholes trying to keep a group of people living in utter despair.

ciberido:Seraphym: My list of red names always swells during one of these threads.

Thank you for coming out of the woodwork, you illogical poorly-studied simpletons, and taking Hamas' side. You certainly didn't add anything new to the "debate," but reading your moronic hatred and basic inability to grasp simple fact and logic is always usually amusing.

And, speaking of illogical poorly-studied simpletons, again we're back to there being only two "sides."

Nice try, but.... when it comes to "It's okay for Hamas to fire rockets at and suicide bomb among Israeli citizens, or it's not," there really are only two sides. Beyond that, I insinuated nothing in my post about any position or opinion limitations for any potential solution. But you knew that and just wanted to get in that quick jab. You missed, watch your footing next time.

Communist_Manifesto:bostonguy: Objectively speaking, the ball is in the Palestinians' court. Israel just wants to be left alone. If terrorists in Gaza would simply STOP. FIRING. ROCKETS. then Israel would leave Gaza alone. After all, Israel packed up and left. But, no, the extremists there do not want Israel to exist.

Full stop. That's the situation.

I believe that's an oversimplification, but I agree Palestinians need to stop firing the rockets. On the different side of the same token though, there are Israeli extremists who do not want Palestine to exist. I just think that since Israel has pretty much ALL of the power (let's face it, the iron dome shoots most of these rockets down and they have an airforce and tanks etc.) it is Israel who has to stop the cycle. Maybe instead of responding to rocket attacks, respond with food drops instead of bombs. It's a very messed up situation but I believe that power dynamics only truly change when the entity with the most power decides to give some of it up.

To a degree, they have given some of it up. They stopped occupying Gaza, gave more autonomy to the West Bank, and generally gave Hamas free reign on the political side of the court when it came to Gaza, while tacitly supporting Fatah as the "legitimate" rulers of Palestine (Fun fact for people who keep saying Fatah / Hamas is the legit democratically elected government of the people: There were supposed to be re-elections on both sides a long, long time ago. They are both essentially straw-dictators supported by opposing factions. I saw straw because without the support they are getting, they would topple and the other side would pounce like a starved dog on sirloin)

Cast Lead in 08/09 gave Israel "back" some of the power (it also actually turned Gazan's public opinion somewhat against Hamas, not that it matters to anyone), but reversed the trend, unfortunately. Since Cast Lead, GDP and GNI have been rising -- dramatically, in Gaza and the West Bank, especially after the embargo was lessened as part of a cease-fire deal.

My personal belief, as someone with a pretty big stake in this whole thing, is that Israel has a good short term anti-terror policy (Targeted Killings, denial of attack), but really, really terrible long term strategy. A lot of people support or turn to terrorism because they have not many salient options left to those around them (generally, low ranking terrorists are from the middle class and act "on behalf" of those less fortunate than them). If Israel allowed more growth in the occupied territories, then the people who currently support terrorism or for whom terrorism is acted "on behalf of" would have a lot more to lose from a military conflict, and hence, there would be less support.

None of this works without a functioning democracy on the side of the Palestinians, however. The current crop of leaders don't give two farks about the people, they just want to spit in Israel's eye. And Israel isn't too keen on there being a democracy nearby which could better advocate against the settlers.

The whole 'LEAVE ISRAEL ALONE' whinefest might hold some water if it wasn't, you know, for the fact that Israelis actively expand into Palestinian territory.

It's not like the Israelis passively sit within defined borders while those awful Palestinians bulldoze their homes and move in.

But let me clarify.

The problem isn't really 'Israelis'.

It's 'Right Wing Israelis and their dominance of the nation'.

For the minority of left leaning Israelis who genuinely want a harmonious relationship with Palestine and don't endorse the fascism of the right, I feel the utmost pity.

As with those Israeli civilians killed as a result of right wing warmongering.

And the exponentially higher numbers of Palestinian civilians killed for the same reason.

I find it hard to grasp that people freak the fark out regarding terrorism, carried out by an oppressed people who have no other military or diplomatic option, kills a small number of people yet applaud when a 'surgical strike' from a nation with vast military, economic and political superiority takes out fifty times the number of civilians as 'collateral damage'.

But let's face facts.

For all the squawking about anti-semitism, Tats and co quite simply believe that an Israeli life has an intrinsic value equal to that of dozens of dirty Palestinians.

That's the only way they can reconcile the simple, factual numbers of how this has played out over the years.

Israel is kicking things off. The incursion last Saturday that started this mess was a blatant intentional provocation. This is coming immediately after the US elections. They've been planning for major operations for months (I hope we haven't already forgotten the preparation-porn they were showing over the summer). I'm not saying the real target is Iran... but the real target is Iran.

Hopefully Israel will get the ass-kicking it deserves, knocking some sense into their society just as the Angolan war was the deathblow to Apartheid in South Africa.

bostonguyRaise your hand if you think Hamas and others would stop attacking Israel if Israel were to end the blockade and whatnot.

That was exactly the condition on which Hamas agreed to the above cease-fire.Israel didn't hold up their end. Hamas did. This is a fact.

Thank you for coming out of the woodwork, you illogical poorly-studied simpletons, and taking Hamas' side. You certainly didn't add anything new to the "debate," but reading your moronic hatred and basic inability to grasp simple fact and logic is always usually amusing.

/why yes, that's pure ad hominem... I'm not trying to debate you, your position has been crushed by not only multiple prior Fark threads but by the majority of modern western leaders' opinions as well (ooh, argumentum ad populum et ad vericundiam too!)//but that's why you're so entertaining... you're like truthers, you just never quit

You sound fat

Ooooh, The communist is butthurt. If "you sound fat" is your retort, you've lost the arguement, homey. Go troll another thread.

bostonguy:Communist_Manifesto: SuperNinjaToad: bostonguy: No doubt there will be condemnations of Israel's strikes on Gaza. But remember this: Israel would leave Gaza alone if the terrorists would just stop firing rockets into Israel. It really is that simple. Israel wants to live in peace. Hamas and others want to live without Israel existing.

/ American Israeli in Tel Aviv// Safe from the 130+ rockets fired into Israel over the past three days/// At least until their range increases

Can't and won't happen. It's basic human nature regardless of religion etc....when you have a huge disparity in quality of life and constant supression of one side over the other, the 'lesser' side will always try their best to aggravate and harm their more powerful foe even with benefit of hindsight.When you add religion and historical animosity to the mix, the situation exacerbates

THIS. It's amazing people don't get it. People want autonomy and a halfway decent quality of life, that is universal. Even though having a border with Eqypt apparently absolves Israel of all wrong doing, this conflict won't end unless Israel lets it end (and the Palestinians agree to whatever territory they're offered and since they're "leaders" are pretty retarded i'm not holding my breath.)

Objectively speaking, the ball is in the Palestinians' court. Israel just wants to be left alone. If terrorists in Gaza would simply STOP. FIRING. ROCKETS. then Israel would leave Gaza alone. After all, Israel packed up and left. But, no, the extremists there do not want Israel to exist.

Full stop. That's the situation.

On another note to those who excuse the terrorism because the Israeli blockade and whatnot:

Raise your hand if you think Hamas and others would stop attacking Israel if Israel were to end the blockade and whatnot.

I expect I'll hear crickets. Again, it's up to the Palestinians to choose to live in peace with Israel, and then negotiations can commence from there.

Communist_Manifesto:SuperNinjaToad: bostonguy: No doubt there will be condemnations of Israel's strikes on Gaza. But remember this: Israel would leave Gaza alone if the terrorists would just stop firing rockets into Israel. It really is that simple. Israel wants to live in peace. Hamas and others want to live without Israel existing.

/ American Israeli in Tel Aviv// Safe from the 130+ rockets fired into Israel over the past three days/// At least until their range increases

Can't and won't happen. It's basic human nature regardless of religion etc....when you have a huge disparity in quality of life and constant supression of one side over the other, the 'lesser' side will always try their best to aggravate and harm their more powerful foe even with benefit of hindsight.When you add religion and historical animosity to the mix, the situation exacerbates

THIS. It's amazing people don't get it. People want autonomy and a halfway decent quality of life, that is universal. Even though having a border with Eqypt apparently absolves Israel of all wrong doing, this conflict won't end unless Israel lets it end (and the Palestinians agree to whatever territory they're offered and since they're "leaders" are pretty retarded i'm not holding my breath.)

Objectively speaking, the ball is in the Palestinians' court. Israel just wants to be left alone. If terrorists in Gaza would simply STOP. FIRING. ROCKETS. then Israel would leave Gaza alone. After all, Israel packed up and left. But, no, the extremists there do not want Israel to exist.

It strikes me as ironic that when a movie is made about Americans fighting against an invading/occupying force, they are seen as heroes.

But when Arabs do it in the real world, they're terrorists.

That's because the Wolverines didn't strap explosives to themselves and blow up buses full of civilians. Terrorism means you kill soft-target civilians to spread terror. Guerrilla ops against military forces aren't considered terrorism. The problem is that guerrilla ops don't really work any more in a world with helicopters and smart missiles.

Actually, the Red Dawn kids would have all been dead within a day if that scenario actually played out. That movie was so stupid I wanted to bite the producer.

jso2897:Tat'dGreaser: lordjupiter: We send countries money because if we don't, someone else will, and then what? Then it's only a matter of time before one or two countries (Russia and China, most likely) gain a controlling stake in all these teetering countries and we're once again isolated on the Risk board.

Communist_Manifesto:America also doesn't set up road blocks in Mexico, or try to send settlers to Mexico. Quit being obtuse and deflecting from the larger issue. Israel for all intents and purposes controls the palestinian territories.

Again, a fully open border with Egypt that Israel has nothing to do with.

Even Hamas came out a few months ago and were bragging about how they liberated Gaza from 'the occupation' and how it wasn't occupied thanks to them anymore.

Funny enough from the standpoint of the history of human society, the point at which religion goes from worshiping feminine nature-based figures to revering male deities is typically shortly after you've seen the move from roaming, hunting and gathering societies that depend a lot on luck to survive (finding food, no ill turns in the weather which push herds away from their typical gathering places, and s on) to agrarian societies that don't move around much and whose survival depends largely on having big stockpiles of stuff.

Stuff you can take by force.

Then it's handy to make God a man 'cause, yanno, war's a man's game and all. All the Abrahamic faiths (including Christianity, Islam, and yes, Judaism)share more or less the same male deity, soooo.... you get this.

Very interesting point, thank you.

I'm not religious myself but find religions fascinating, especially as they relate to the history of mankind. I don't suppose you know of a book or website that goes into further depth about what you said? I'm always looking for new reading material :-)

Hunter gathers were just as violent and bloodthirsty as civilized societies. Hippies and Wiccans like to pretend otherwise to justify their critiques of modern society, but its all nonsense. The Pawnee, which certainly fit the definition above, kept slaves, engaged in human sacrifice and regular wars with rival tribes as late as the 1840s. All prechristian societies, agricultural or hunter-gatherer, did the same. Link

First are you going by land deeds? in each which case Jewish land would be biggerPopulation? than the bottom 1/3 should belong to no one other than few camels and some Bedouin, the Negav has never been overly populated and still isn't

including the 1947 plan that Israel agreed to but the Palestinians rejected is an interesting choice plus the next image ignores the fact that the W.Bank and Gaza were in Jordain and Egyptian hands between 47 and 67

here is what the W.Bank looks like now

Per the Oslo accord

Area A (full civil and security control by the Palestinian Authority): circa 3% of the West Bank, exclusive East-Jerusalem (first phase, 1995).[1][2] In 2011: 18%.[3][4] This area includes all Palestinian cities and their surrounding areas, with no Israeli settlements. Entry into this area is forbidden to all Israeli citizens. The Israel Defense Forces maintain no presence, but sometimes conducts raids to arrest suspected militants.

Area B (Palestinian civil control and joint Israeli-Palestinian security control): circa 25% (first phase, 1995).[1][2] In 2011: 21%.[3][4] Includes areas of many Palestinian towns and villages and areas, with no Israeli settlements.

Area C (full Israeli civil and security control, except over Palestinian civilians): circa 72% (first phase, 1995).[1][2] In 2011: 61%.[3][4] These areas include all Israeli settlements (cities, towns, and villages), nearby land, most roadways that connected the settlements (and which Israelis are now restricted to) as well as strategic areas described as "security zones."[3] There were 1,000 Israeli settlers living in Area C in 1972. By 1993, their population had increased to 110,000. As of 2012 they number more than 300,000 - as against 150,000 Palestinians, the majority of whom are Bedouin and fellahin.[5]

I only support this however if the goal is full invasion and destruction of Hamas and other armed groups firing rockets. Otherwise, its just a lot of people who will die, lots of civilians from collateral damage rather than being shot in the face at close range and will lead to nothing.

Either we go in full measures, or we do not go in. Anything will be a disaster.

It's been a while since I've seen a bad Reuters photoshop or purposefully bad perspective shot, so I guess we were due. Think they'll run with the stuffed animal thing again? Or maybe the same woman mourning in multiple locations?

topcon:I'm just telling you what I see here on a regular basis, in a nutshell:

American Christians = bad, need to be destroyed.

Foreign Muslims = good, must be preserved.

That's a simplification, but it's true. All this despite the religion of Islam being incompatible with freedoms humanity deserves that the left espouses, that everyone should ideally believe in. And I realize that many of these beliefs are shared with Christianity...but not many Christian-majority nations beat, imprison, and behead women who try to drive, get an education, or wear pants, or murder people who might even be SUSPECTED of being homosexual.

The difference between this majority "self identified" Christian nation of America is, even gay dudes can go out in public holding hands, or even kissing in public. How many majority-Muslim countries can they do that in? Parts of Turkey, maybe?

And I will agree that there is a DEGREE of truth to this, yes. But I cannot help but think some people on Fark greatly exaggerate this tendency, partly because of the whole "nuance" thing and partly because so many Americans and so many Farkers seeing politics as a battle between two teams.

Maybe the world is divided up in some meaningful sense into teams, but if so, there are more than two.

mayIFark:NumberFiveIsAlive: I wonder how many people in here will see that the most recent round of violence started with Hamas attacked the IDF. IDF shoots back, Hamas shoots rockets indescriminately.

Israel does their share of stupid shiat, but Hamas ain't the cherub faced baby in this one.

Oh yeah? As President Clinton Famously said, "Arithmetic".

How many Israelis were killed by Hamas rocket, and how many Palestinians killed by IDF?

Something like 0/500?

So, should Israel carefully aim their retaliation so that they just barely miss killing anyone?

Funny enough from the standpoint of the history of human society, the point at which religion goes from worshiping feminine nature-based figures to revering male deities is typically shortly after you've seen the move from roaming, hunting and gathering societies that depend a lot on luck to survive (finding food, no ill turns in the weather which push herds away from their typical gathering places, and s on) to agrarian societies that don't move around much and whose survival depends largely on having big stockpiles of stuff.

Stuff you can take by force.

Then it's handy to make God a man 'cause, yanno, war's a man's game and all. All the Abrahamic faiths (including Christianity, Islam, and yes, Judaism)share more or less the same male deity, soooo.... you get this.

Very interesting point, thank you.

I'm not religious myself but find religions fascinating, especially as they relate to the history of mankind. I don't suppose you know of a book or website that goes into further depth about what you said? I'm always looking for new reading material :-)

The problem is that you can't have a country asserting a simultaneous claim to the *right* to a chunk of land but no *responsibilities* to the people who do and have inhabited it for generations. Thus the answers are simple and have long since been hit upon: either A.) relinquish the claim of rights and recognize a sovereign Palestinian State or B.) accept the responsibility and integrate the Palestinians into Israel as full and equal citizens. Short of that, you've just got Apartheid with religious garnish.

The challenge, is in getting two ruling classes to actually implement and stick to these well-understood solutions, due the personal loss of status and power that they would suffer.

ciberido:topcon: I'm far right now? Neat. Might want to read my profile. I'm areligious, support gay rights, abortion, health care reform, and a bunch of other stuff the right hates.

I could care less what your profile says. Less so whether you consider yourself to be far right, far left, or neither. I respond to what you say in the thread, not to who you say you are.

But if it makes you feel any better, I am not condemning you personally so much as a mindset which, rightly or wrongly, I felt your post exemplified. If that is indeed not indicative of your true thoughts on the matter, or if I exaggerated or misinterpreted what you said, good on you.

Take it as a sign that I misjudged you or painted with too broad a brush if you will. I freely admit I am not perfect.

I'm just telling you what I see here on a regular basis, in a nutshell:

American Christians = bad, need to be destroyed.

Foreign Muslims = good, must be preserved.

That's a simplification, but it's true. All this despite the religion of Islam being incompatible with freedoms humanity deserves that the left espouses, that everyone should ideally believe in. And I realize that many of these beliefs are shared with Christianity...but not many Christian-majority nations beat, imprison, and behead women who try to drive, get an education, or wear pants, or murder people who might even be SUSPECTED of being homosexual.

The difference between this majority "self identified" Christian nation of America is, even gay dudes can go out in public holding hands, or even kissing in public. How many majority-Muslim countries can they do that in? Parts of Turkey, maybe?

Religion is an excuse; a mere marketing pitch to get the people on board who have to do the actual murdering and being murdered.No religion is *actually* preaching war for the personal enrichment of the ruling class.

Opportunists are twisting religious history and doctrine to *justify* said war. That they want, for their own personal enrichment.

mayIFark:NumberFiveIsAlive: I wonder how many people in here will see that the most recent round of violence started with Hamas attacked the IDF. IDF shoots back, Hamas shoots rockets indescriminately.

Israel does their share of stupid shiat, but Hamas ain't the cherub faced baby in this one.

Oh yeah? As President Clinton Famously said, "Arithmetic".

How many Israelis were killed by Hamas rocket, and how many Palestinians killed by IDF?

nmemkha:marsgwar: nmemkha: So we agree, they have a right to be upset. Given Israel's decades long brutal occupation, violence is expected and arguably justified.

So is the retaliation by Israel. It's called a war. If Native American tribes started shooting rockets at US tragets to get back land, we would retaliate accordingly and wouldn't be wrong for doing so.

What America did you the Native Americans is an apt comparison. Like Nazi did to the Jews, Israel has concentrated Palestinians into impoverished ghettos and controls their movement. So we agree that Israel is using the tactics of brutal regimes. Like employing White Phosphorus on Palestinian children, for instance.

Quoted for truth. I have never seen any of the suckers of Israel's cock suggest a solution, besides a Final Solution, to the Palestinian Question.

globalwarmingpraiser:nmemkha: globalwarmingpraiser: nmemkha: willyfreddy: He looked at me, blankly, for a few seconds, and then simply stated "I'd wipe them all out.""Who?""The Palestinians.""What do you mean?""Simple. Kill every single Palestinian that's alive. It's the only solution."

Its their "Final Solution" to the "Palestinian Problem". Many Jews seem to have same opinion of Palestinians as Germans had of them during WW II.

Talk about your Stockholm Syndrome.

Were the Jews actually saying that they should wipeout the Germans prior to the Holocost? The Palestinians were have been saying this for a long time. And it isn't as if the Israeli's haven't been attacked by their neighbors several times in the last 50 years.

Yeah ever since Israel started taking their land by force, piece by piece. I'd be pissed too and so would you.

I am against the settlements, but I understand them taking the land they did after they were attacked.

So we agree, they have a right to be upset. Given Israel's decades long brutal occupation, violence is expected and arguably justified.

Russky:I think most people understand both sides are at fault and nobody is totally in the 'right' here. Now that i said that I'm sure some douche will call me an anti-semite, usually how it goes.

Kraftwerk Orange:Judaism and Islam are both Semitic religions. So however someone wants to take your comment - blame the Jews, blame the Muslims - either way you're anti-semitic.

Actually, no.

1) Judaism and Islam are both Abrahamic religions (as is Christianity). There is such a thing as a "Semitic religion" but it doesn't mean what you think it means.

2) I realize that the history and etymology of "Semitic" would lead you to think that "antisemitism" could refer to bigotry against Jewish OR other Semitic people, but that is not the case. Allow me to quote Wikipedia:

'' While the term's etymology might suggest that antisemitism is directed against all Semitic peoples, the term was coined in the late 19th century in Germany as a more scientific-sounding term for Judenhass ("Jew-hatred"), and that has been its normal use since then. ''

Tat'dGreaser:lordjupiter: We send countries money because if we don't, someone else will, and then what? Then it's only a matter of time before one or two countries (Russia and China, most likely) gain a controlling stake in all these teetering countries and we're once again isolated on the Risk board.

The best and only way to beat Israel is not to find toe to toe. Israel will always win in a violent struggle. Economics is the only way to win. Palestinians need to find non-violent leadership. Trading will win the war. Not some bombastic half-arse made mortar out of nearly broken down pickup.

Rather than strapping a bomb to someone's chest and yelling out some silly phrase. Get to work building something (not a missile or mortar launcher). Even if it's a 'pet rock' or metal scrap yard. Get Palestinians back to constructive work and not being paid to work at an airport that doesn't have jets.

Mid_mo_mad_man:So following your reasoning Canada should belong to the Danes since they where the first to settle it?

As a part Native American man, I can say:

You're racist.

Taking over a land and killing off all who've been there for thousands of years doesn't exactly put you on the moral high ground when it comes to ethical considerations of whose land it was. Whether that be the case with the native tribes of the Americas or the native Semitic tribes of the middle east. Yet, ethics are never so simple, are they?

Plus, you need to work on your reading comprehension. Offering up and considering an alternative perspective with an explanation of its grounds is not the same as taking a position. Not everyone is as simplistic in their thinking as you.

onyxruby:karl2025: They aren't defending the violence of Hamas, they're condemning the violence of Israel. It's a subtle difference.

Except that isn't what their doing, and I have looked for exactly that behavior for years. Seriously, try to find a major condemnation of Hamas or similar terrorist organizations by these people at anything like the level they condemn Israel. You might find a few examples here and there, but they are the exception. To be honest I have read far more criticism and condemnation of Hamas and similar terrorist groups from Arabs. The useful idiots condemn only one side of the equation, having decided that their morals and values don't apply if the victim is somebody that they don't like.

I don't condemn anybody who fights against oppression. We can question their methods, and there is plenty of blame to go around, but Israel is the only actor here that continues to operate an apartheid state.

mayIFark:NumberFiveIsAlive: I wonder how many people in here will see that the most recent round of violence started with Hamas attacked the IDF. IDF shoots back, Hamas shoots rockets indescriminately.

Israel does their share of stupid shiat, but Hamas ain't the cherub faced baby in this one.

Oh yeah? As President Clinton Famously said, "Arithmetic".

How many Israelis were killed by Hamas rocket, and how many Palestinians killed by IDF?

Something like 0/500?

Oh come on, it isn't for lack of trying. Just because you are bad at being a genocidal pack of hooligans doesn't mean you don't deserve to be put down like a bunch of rabid dogs.

Except that isn't what their doing, and I have looked for exactly that behavior for years. Seriously, try to find a major condemnation of Hamas or similar terrorist organizations by these people at anything like the level they condemn Israel. You might find a few examples here and there, but they are the exception. To be honest I have read far more criticism and condemnation of Hamas and similar terrorist groups from Arabs. The useful idiots condemn only one side of the equation, having decided that their morals and values don't apply if the victim is somebody that they don't like.

PhoenixInFlames:Israel started this one. Airstrikes and killing military leaders = not good, and going to end in retaliation.

*sigh* Can we just sever all ties with everyone in the Middle East, Israel included? It's like having a little brother who knows you can kick ass, and insists on starting shiat with their classmates cuz they know you'll defend them.

Seriously? Did you miss the part where Hamas has launched 110 missiles into Israel since Saturday, after the IDF responded to a missile attack on one of their jeeps?

Israel certainly isn't innocent in a general sense, but with respect to these events specifically it seems like a pretty rational act to take out Hamas's military leader.

If I were surrounded by people who have openly admitted they would not be satisfied until my family was driven into the ocean, damn right I would react with anything I had when they shoot rockets into my backyard.

Palestine can never make peace with Israel, because you can't make peace with a country you say doesn't exist. If they signed a peace treaty, that would go against everything they believe in.

Vegan Meat Popsicle:Oh good. A bunch of people who think a magic sky man gave them a chunk of desert in the middle of someone else's property are going to go beat the shiat out of a bunch of people who think the appropriate response to losing their land is to blow up buses and pizzerias full of innocent people who largely had nothing to do with it.

[fc02.deviantart.net image 850x543]/hot like the fires of hell all these people can go burn in

You know, genetically speaking, the Jews were there first and there the longest (and as the best defined location specific ethnic group). There was some hoopla a couple of years ago when the studies came out. I'm having trouble remembering where to find them, but I think this is one (unable to log in right now to verify). The Palestinians are fairly recent immigrees to the region (in consideration of that part of the world having a very deep history) moving in as a result of the Romans were doing their thing to run the Jews out. (You know, the whole ethnic cleansing, destroying their temples, outlawing the people and religion, stealing their property, etc all that fun stuff if the history I learned is right.)

The situation is a whole lotta gray once you know the actual history of the place and not the propaganda from both sides. One must be pretty retarded to think one side is right and the other wrong or that both sides are wrong. You say it's the Jews forcing their way onto someone else's property, but others could equate it to the homeowners returning after a long trip away and seeking to kick out squatters (squatters who enlisted the aid of some ethnic cleansers to run the family out in the first place). If there is any truth at all, it's probably in the middle, but where oh where? Can't be easy to find it else they wouldn't be handing Nobel Peace Prizes out like candy to anyone who seems to come close to figuring it out.

ciberido:onyxruby: This is the wonderful thread where we get to see hypocrites that otherwise claim to be peace loving come to the defense of terrorist organizations like Hamas. You know the same organizations that put into daily practice everything that their useful idiot defenders decry anyone else doing (murder, poor treatment of woman, civil liberties etc).

Never understood people like that, it's like the vegan that says it's okay to eat hamburger from Angus cows but goes around belittling anyone who dares to eat the meat of any other cow or other animal as being cruel to animals. Stand back, grab your marshmallows and get ready to watch everyone flame everyone....

Clearly you never understood people like that, because clearly you don't under what they actually SAY. In the minds of normal people, criticizing Israel does not equate to praising Hamas to the skies. Only in the false dichotomies that bedevil small minds does every statement about Israel or Hamas become either "Israel is wonderful and Hamas is evil" or "Hamas is wonderful and Israel is evil."

But some people's minds simply cannot comprehend that level of nuance and thus mistake it for hypocrisy..

That's a common theme on Fark. Any criticism of Obama makes you a Tea Bagger etc. People inside echo chambers tend to have very black and white worldviews.

I wonder if these events will cause other Muslim nations in the area to react militarily against Israel, which will in turn warrant a military response in kind from the US.

I don't think Iran would directly involve themselves, I'd put my money on Egypt before anyone else, but the Israelis could be hoping that Iran will react forcing the US' hand.

Of course, I never was very good with world politics and could be simply over analyzing the situation and this could simply be a justified response to attacks from Hamas controlled regions in the Gaza strip.

onyxruby:This is the wonderful thread where we get to see hypocrites that otherwise claim to be peace loving come to the defense of terrorist organizations like Hamas. You know the same organizations that put into daily practice everything that their useful idiot defenders decry anyone else doing (murder, poor treatment of woman, civil liberties etc).

Never understood people like that, it's like the vegan that says it's okay to eat hamburger from Angus cows but goes around belittling anyone who dares to eat the meat of any other cow or other animal as being cruel to animals. Stand back, grab your marshmallows and get ready to watch everyone flame everyone....

Clearly you never understood people like that, because clearly you don't under what they actually SAY. In the minds of normal people, criticizing Israel does not equate to praising Hamas to the skies. Only in the false dichotomies that bedevil small minds does every statement about Israel or Hamas become either "Israel is wonderful and Hamas is evil" or "Hamas is wonderful and Israel is evil."

But some people's minds simply cannot comprehend that level of nuance and thus mistake it for hypocrisy..

Tat'dGreaser:lordjupiter: We send countries money because if we don't, someone else will, and then what? Then it's only a matter of time before one or two countries (Russia and China, most likely) gain a controlling stake in all these teetering countries and we're once again isolated on the Risk board.

Funny enough from the standpoint of the history of human society, the point at which religion goes from worshiping feminine nature-based figures to revering male deities is typically shortly after you've seen the move from roaming, hunting and gathering societies that depend a lot on luck to survive (finding food, no ill turns in the weather which push herds away from their typical gathering places, and s on) to agrarian societies that don't move around much and whose survival depends largely on having big stockpiles of stuff.

Stuff you can take by force.

Then it's handy to make God a man 'cause, yanno, war's a man's game and all. All the Abrahamic faiths (including Christianity, Islam, and yes, Judaism)share more or less the same male deity, soooo.... you get this.

mayIFark:NumberFiveIsAlive: I wonder how many people in here will see that the most recent round of violence started with Hamas attacked the IDF. IDF shoots back, Hamas shoots rockets indescriminately.

Israel does their share of stupid shiat, but Hamas ain't the cherub faced baby in this one.

Oh yeah? As President Clinton Famously said, "Arithmetic".

How many Israelis were killed by Hamas rocket, and how many Palestinians killed by IDF?

Something like 0/500?

When you're up against an enemy that's proud and wanting to die for his cause, you oblige him. Preferably in a way that prevents innocents from getting killed, on BOTH sides. But hey, which one hides among the civilians again?

ideamaster:He failed to mention activists had access to knives, metal rods, clubs, bulletproof vests and night vision goggles. Fifty lacked passports while carrying large amounts of cash. Onboard as well were building supplies, such as cement, routinely used by Hamas to construct bunkers in Gaza.

It's a little known fact that building supplies have other uses besides constructing bunkers in Gaza for Hamas, as well.

What do the Ron Paul oompaloompas think non-intervention will lead to? A sudden unofficial agreement among all other nations in the world to also stop military funding abroad?

Of course not.

We send countries money because if we don't, someone else will, and then what? Then it's only a matter of time before one or two countries (Russia and China, most likely) gain a controlling stake in all these teetering countries and we're once again isolated on the Risk board.

That's why when the RP bots try to correct the use of the word "isolationism", they're not really looking at the overall effect of "non-intervention"....which is isolationism.