If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

As soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children

Isaiah 66:7Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

Re: As soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children

There will be no birth pangs. The nation will come into being in an instant.

"For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

Re: As soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children

Originally Posted by Trivalee

Will or has? Didn't that occur in 1948?

Distant future when it was prophesized. Yes, I believe it happened in 1948.

"For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

Re: As soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children

Originally Posted by Trivalee

Isaiah 66:7[FONT="]Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
[/FONT]8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

What did Isaiah mean by this?

This was good I thought.

Benson Commentary
Isaiah 66:7-8. Here begins a new paragraph of the prophet’s discourse, containing a description of the sudden and great increase of the Christian Church, upon God’s rejecting the Jews, and destroying their temple and worship: “the very destruction of the Jewish polity making way for the reception and spread of the gospel, inasmuch as it abated that opposition which the Jewish zealots all along made to its progress; and the abolishing the Jewish worship contributed very much to the abrogating the law of Moses, and burying it with silence and decency.” See Romans 11:11, and Lowth.

This paragraph, however, is not unconnected with what precedes. “It is,” as Vitringa observes, “another consolatory argument, directed to those who reverenced the word of Jehovah, and formed the true Zion, taken from the rapid and wonderful increase of the church among the Gentiles, superior to all human thought, all expectation. For when in the former section Isaiah had done two things; first, had predicted the calling of the Gentiles, (chap. 65:1,) and then the punishment of the ungodly, and such as rejected the gospel; in this section, after he had repeated the indignation conceived by God against the hypocrites and those who did not obey the gospel, he in the same manner comforts the pious Jews, from the unexpected event of the most wished-for success of the calling of the Gentiles, who, joined with them in one body, should form one church, and inherit the earth.”

Before she travailed she brought forth — The church is represented here as a travailing woman, the mother of all true believers: see Isaiah 54:1; Galatians 4:26. The whole verse is expressive of a great and sudden salvation which God would work for his church, like the delivery of a woman, and that before her travail, and without pain, of a man-child. It undoubtedly refers to the introduction of the gospel, and its rapid and unexpected progress.

Who hath heard such a thing? — The prophet here calls either to the whole world, or to such as feared God among the Jews, to admire his stupendous work of providence and grace, in the sudden erection and wonderful enlargement of the gospel church. Who hath seen such things? — Who hath witnessed such an extraordinary event?

Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day, or shall a nation, &c. — “The suddenness of this event is as surprising as if the fruits of the earth, which are brought to perfection by slow degrees, should blossom and ripen all in one day. And the fruitfulness of this spiritual increase is as wonderful as if a whole nation were born at once, or by one woman.”

For as soon as Zion travailed — As soon as the fulness of time came for erecting the gospel church; she brought forth her children — In great multitudes, without pain or difficulty, no inauspicious circumstance occurring to prevent their birth: see Acts 2:41; and Acts 4:4.

Re: As soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children

"Zion" is the land of Israel. More specifically, the location where Jerusalem was built. But I guess anything can mean anything.

"For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

Re: As soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children

Originally Posted by Trivalee

Isaiah 66:7[FONT="]Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
[/FONT]8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

What did Isaiah mean by this?

Two things:

First - verse 7: before she travailed, she would bring forth a man child. This is referring to Jesus. But this also implies a travailing after that man child was birthed. Which is what happened 70 AD. They were dispersed and suffered much persecution where ever they went.

Second - verse 8: They would one day be restored in a moment. After she travailed (persecutions and especially the holocaust), she brought forth her children as a new nation restored to their ancestral and promised land. Fulfilled 1948.

"He's wild, you know. Not like a tame lion."
C.S. Lewis, "The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe."

"Oh, but sometimes the sun stays hidden for years"
"Sometimes the sky rains night after night, When will it clear?"

Re: As soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children

Originally Posted by bluesky22

This was good I thought.

Benson Commentary
Isaiah 66:7-8. Here begins a new paragraph of the prophet’s discourse, containing a description of the sudden and great increase of the Christian Church, upon God’s rejecting the Jews, and destroying their temple and worship: “the very destruction of the Jewish polity making way for the reception and spread of the gospel, inasmuch as it abated that opposition which the Jewish zealots all along made to its progress; and the abolishing the Jewish worship contributed very much to the abrogating the law of Moses, and burying it with silence and decency.” See Romans 11:11, and Lowth.

This paragraph, however, is not unconnected with what precedes. “It is,” as Vitringa observes, “another consolatory argument, directed to those who reverenced the word of Jehovah, and formed the true Zion, taken from the rapid and wonderful increase of the church among the Gentiles, superior to all human thought, all expectation. For when in the former section Isaiah had done two things; first, had predicted the calling of the Gentiles, (chap. 65:1,) and then the punishment of the ungodly, and such as rejected the gospel; in this section, after he had repeated the indignation conceived by God against the hypocrites and those who did not obey the gospel, he in the same manner comforts the pious Jews, from the unexpected event of the most wished-for success of the calling of the Gentiles, who, joined with them in one body, should form one church, and inherit the earth.”

Before she travailed she brought forth — The church is represented here as a travailing woman, the mother of all true believers: see Isaiah 54:1; Galatians 4:26. The whole verse is expressive of a great and sudden salvation which God would work for his church, like the delivery of a woman, and that before her travail, and without pain, of a man-child. It undoubtedly refers to the introduction of the gospel, and its rapid and unexpected progress.

Who hath heard such a thing? — The prophet here calls either to the whole world, or to such as feared God among the Jews, to admire his stupendous work of providence and grace, in the sudden erection and wonderful enlargement of the gospel church. Who hath seen such things? — Who hath witnessed such an extraordinary event?

Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day, or shall a nation, &c. — “The suddenness of this event is as surprising as if the fruits of the earth, which are brought to perfection by slow degrees, should blossom and ripen all in one day. And the fruitfulness of this spiritual increase is as wonderful as if a whole nation were born at once, or by one woman.”

For as soon as Zion travailed — As soon as the fulness of time came for erecting the gospel church; she brought forth her children — In great multitudes, without pain or difficulty, no inauspicious circumstance occurring to prevent their birth: see Acts 2:41; and Acts 4:4.

This is certainly a new way to look at it. Until now, I was sold on the understanding that the passage is exclusively about the rebuilding of ethnic Israel because of the reference to Zion. But the introduction of Isaiah 54:1 demands a diligent study.

Re: As soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children

Originally Posted by Trivalee

This is certainly a new way to look at it. Until now, I was sold on the understanding that the passage is exclusively about the rebuilding of ethnic Israel because of the reference to Zion. But the introduction of Isaiah 54:1 demands a diligent study.

I'll wait for further thoughts from others.

Isaiah 54 is also about the people being returned to the land. Verse 3: For right and left shall you prevail, and your seed shall inherit nations and repeople desolate cities. Verse 7: For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you. Did God forsake Christians? Where does He need to gather them from? Verse 8: With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord Etc.

"For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

Re: As soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children

Originally Posted by Fenris

Isaiah 54 is also about the people being returned to the land. Verse 3: For right and left shall you prevail, and your seed shall inherit nations and repeople desolate cities. Verse 7: For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you. Did God forsake Christians? Where does He need to gather them from? Verse 8: With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord Etc.

Thank you, Fenris, for pointing out the overall theme of Isaiah 54. I can now comfortably fall back to my previous view that it's exclusively about Israel. The post I responded to seem to be predicated on the basis of a single text taken out of context.

Re: As soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children

Yes, this passage also has bothered me for years. Don't know why--it's pretty straightforward. Lots of Christians I've heard from believe this was fulfilled in 47-48 (I think Israel declared in 47, UN accepted in 48?). It's rather strange imagery, of a woman giving birth without birth pains, as Fenris suggested. But the rebirth of Israel was anything but free of problems! So my thought is that 1948 may not be the date fulfilling this passage.

I think it's more likely that this will be fulfilled in the Messianic Restoration, which is still future. It will be a very different kind of national restoration if 1) Israel is already a nation, and 2) this national restoration has no birth pains. It may even refer to some kind of spiritual restoration at the coming of Messiah?

If we look at the Christian perspective alone, we have Jesus describing "birth pains" in connection with what I believe to be the 66-70 AD war with Rome. Why would Jesus have referred to this as "birth pains" when the nation of Israel was dying, and not being restored?

I personally think it is because Jesus had already come as Messiah, who represented the final restoration of Israel. It in a sense *should have* meant the birth of national Israel, or her final spiritual restoration. So these "birth pains" were more like false labor, followed by a miscarriage. In reality, a small remnant of "spiritual children," ie the Jewish church, was born successfully.

But I think the final national restoration of Israel will be a spiritual restoration at the coming of Messiah. It will be an instant deliverance from an attack at Armageddon, cutting short a protracted war. And since Israel had already been a nation at this point, it has to mean a revitalization of the nation in spiritual terms, ie a Christian reformation.

Re: As soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children

I think the passage ties into Revelation 12:5....

Revelation 12:5 (NKJV) She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.
Revelation 12:6 (NKJV) Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Yes, sounds like Messiah. But Messiah was never caught up to God at His birth, and Israel did not flee into the wilderness after His birth. But, we do see a correlation with Revelation 2:26-27....

Revelation 2:26-27 (NKJV) And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—
27 ‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron; They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter's vessels’—as I also have received from My Father;

We are the body of Messiah as per Romans 12:5, 1 Corinthians 12:12, Ephesians 4:12, etc. The Church was conceived at Pentacost in Jerusalem, and has been growing. It will be birthed at the time of the Removal of the Righteous. That is the children being born in Isaiah 66 and stated as the child in Revelation 12:5.

And in regards to the removal of the righteous, Isaiah 66 ties in with these verses. And when you throw in this passage, the picture gets a little more resolution to it....

Jeremiah 30:5-7 (NKJV) ‘We have heard a voice of trembling,
Of fear, and not of peace.
6 Ask now, and see,
Whether a man is ever in labor with child?
So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins
Like a woman in labor,
And all faces turned pale?
7 Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob's trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.

Ahh! But Isaiah does say it is referring to a nation, right? Well......

1 Peter 2:9 (NKJV) But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light

Re: As soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children

Originally Posted by Trivalee

Will or has? Didn't that occur in 1948?

No it is the event of the dry bones......

37 The hand of the Lord was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord God, thou knowest.
4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.
5 Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord God; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.

Now when does this happen?

Well it does happen before the second coming still working on it......

Re: As soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children

Originally Posted by randyk

Yes, this passage also has bothered me for years. Don't know why--it's pretty straightforward. Lots of Christians I've heard from believe this was fulfilled in 47-48 (I think Israel declared in 47, UN accepted in 48?). It's rather strange imagery, of a woman giving birth without birth pains, as Fenris suggested. But the rebirth of Israel was anything but free of problems! So my thought is that 1948 may not be the date fulfilling this passage.

I think it's more likely that this will be fulfilled in the Messianic Restoration, which is still future. It will be a very different kind of national restoration if 1) Israel is already a nation, and 2) this national restoration has no birth pains. It may even refer to some kind of spiritual restoration at the coming of Messiah?

If we look at the Christian perspective alone, we have Jesus describing "birth pains" in connection with what I believe to be the 66-70 AD war with Rome. Why would Jesus have referred to this as "birth pains" when the nation of Israel was dying, and not being restored?

I personally think it is because Jesus had already come as Messiah, who represented the final restoration of Israel. It in a sense *should have* meant the birth of national Israel, or her final spiritual restoration. So these "birth pains" were more like false labor, followed by a miscarriage. In reality, a small remnant of "spiritual children," ie the Jewish church, was born successfully.

But I think the final national restoration of Israel will be a spiritual restoration at the coming of Messiah. It will be an instant deliverance from an attack at Armageddon, cutting short a protracted war. And since Israel had already been a nation at this point, it has to mean a revitalization of the nation in spiritual terms, ie a Christian reformation.

Every new post seems to upend my previous understanding of this passage. Like you stated, it seems easy and straightforward, but it is anything, but. And it's impossible not to include your interpretation as one of the strongest contenders for the truth. And yes, I agree that it makes no sense to claim that the establishment of the modern Jewish state in 1948 was free of pain.

Since 1948 was forced by the mother of all evil visited on the Jewish people (Holocaust), doesn't it debunk the quick acceptance of 1948 as the fulfilment of Isaiah 66:7-8? Well, call me unstable as I seem to shift from one view to the view (I'm the first to laugh at myself). I am strongly in agreement that it could mean a spiritual reawakening of Israel in the end times.