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Thursday, August 9, 2012

Sociopaths on television: Pretty Little Liars

I started watching the television show Pretty Little Liars (don't judge me, I was sickly sick all weekend and didn't have the stomach for anything more substantial). I haven't seen that many episodes, but from what I've seen, the pretty little murder victim Alison seems like a bit of a female teenage sociopath. I'm too lazy to look up with a better example, but here is at least a typical example of an exchange between her and her friend:

Ali: I made you Spencer. I made all of you. Before me you were just some goody goody in plaid who did whatever mommy and daddy told her to. Spencer: You're so full of yourself. You think that just because you brought us together you can treat us like puppets?Ali: But you are. Don't you see that? You don't exist without me.

She trades in secrets like they were the most valuable things on the planet, and in her hands they really are decent weapons, keeping everyone else around her on their toes and doing her bidding. Her friends frequently remark on how ruthless she was. She's also cunning. After police arrive at a fraternity party that she and her friends crashed, instead of trying to sneak away in an attempt to avoid getting caught for underage drinking, she walks right up to a policeman and asks him to take them home. She explains her chutzpah thusly: "The bolder the move the less anybody questions it."

She's manipulative, but everyone still loves her, which is a dynamic that is actually explored in an interesting way on the show. Even after all that her associates learn all sorts of bad facts about her after her disappearance (death?), they still self-confessedly love her and admit that their lives will always bear her imprint.

In rehearsing a school play, "The Bad Seed," her friends are discussing some of the moral issues in the play, including the question of whether people are born bad or made bad. One of the characters remarks, exasperatedly, "I'm having a hard time figuring out who's evil and who's just naughty." The same goes for the show. It's not clear who anybody really is and the characters that are the most well-meaning are often the characters who do the most dastardly deeds -- much worse than the actual sociopath herself. So in that way it is true to life. But it also makes us question, should people get a pass because they're being naughty rather than evil?

I know what you mean. Sometimes I do naughty things and that it harms someone is just collateral damage but my own happiness was the goal. I'm no longer depressed so I don't act out to save myself from pain anymore. Good for me.

I openly admit I am attracted to narcissist, how can I get one to be interested in me? He has a blog on here and when we were into each other he stopped talking to me because I have ups and downs. I am still into him, I love my men dark. I am not into men who are all fluffy n' whatnot.

It is better we knowingly tune in for sociopaths on television like heisenburg, than the idiocy that is the delusional mass of fucks with wool over their eyes conceding to that mormon trying to start world war four.

If we have to have a president, then it is great we have one without religion. However, I am mildly annoyed by his occasional god this, soul searching that rhetoric which sometimes interrupts my otherwise non make believe time I stay current reading the news. The point is religion is scary. Diplomacy is boring. Then again, those two concepts are tolerable to me if I stay away. Other times, it is impossible for me to stay away, such as when people elect a president that mixes the two. If you are trying to do that, then you sir need to get a clue.

No, you need to get a clue. Obama has shown no sense of urgency in over 3 years; when people were loosing their jobs and homes he was in the back room perfecting his obamacare and showing that cheshire grin to the public. He's a fake and a looser......

Obama is just another one of the people you will follow for the next four years and four months, you looser. I like it when people like you think I side with any politic, because it goes to show your weakness of being dumb and unempathic. I like to dwell on the past of my giving especially the obama america the finger, but I have to admit that for the decade and a half before I knew that guy exists, I ran counter to any administration that got in my way.

Any fucking way, the grinning menace whose ass you will kiss four years and four months more did not loose homes for the people, and he did not loose jobs for the people; those people lost those things all by themselves by making dumb decisions like you do. Those loosers probably spell 'lose" like you do, and they probably have loose buttholes like you do, anon.

hmmmm aren't you angry.I will only see obama getting on that helicopter with his baggage in tow having that deer in the headlight stare realizing he was a ONE term President. I look forward to that day. Ah! And for the record I didn't loose a dime. Don't bust a vein over politics that you care so little about. But.....I will certainly love this scene. Bye....

It's natural that sociopaths will tend to regard norms in stereotypes and generalizations. I once hung around with some gays and was astonished to discover a widespread belief that straights are secretly gay, and only socialized into accepting hetero. Also..there was one individual who was clearly cross-gender or something, and said so....he was a bit unhappy...but what was funny was how the gay crowd denied his sexuality in saying he was just gay but had been screwed up by society making him think he was a woman inside. It's just that hard to see through into genuinelly different neuro types. Any fixed aspects of sexuality is probably a good example of this, though possibly not for bisexuals)So the point is. Maybe the girl in the show is a budding sociopath. Or maybe she is just bitchy norm. Or a teen going through a normal behaviour phaze.

As a youngster I was frequently called a vahnce by my mother. And a roosha. But I did whatever I did with a smile on my face. I was adorable. Who's to say whether I was naughty or evil. -I was charming!

I agree with Bonner. But the struggle for me is "what exactly is normal?", I don't believe I am sociopath, but upon deep self examination, my thoughts would prove otherwise. Am I just conditioned to transform and modify my behaviors to "fit"? Are we all sociopaths inside, yet somewhere along the way, some have learned behavior modification better than others? We have all been somebody's puppet at one time or another, you either reject it at some point and live true to the inner sociopath, or you spend your life fighting an inward battle between loving and hating your puppet masters. Sexuality us a fantastic example!! WHO is not gay/lesbian in their inner thoughts and being? Yet to find minds that are able to embrace that is rare, those admissions separate the weak minds from the strong ones.

the majority of people are not gay/lesbian in their own mind. about your thoughts on whether you are sociopath..one of the ideas I think have be true is that the spectrum of types is wider than yet understood and that what is understood is bound to weighted toward what is understoof of convicts. I am reckless irresponsible risk taking lazy, criminal in principle if not practice, and so on. I have to accept I am probably sociopath, but unlike some people....I regard it as negative and feel envy for norms. Personally I think the blogger feels the same way. That's not to say there isn't an upside..of course there is. We do things norms can only dream of. But....the truth is those things are at their very best in the dreams of norms.

So in essence, you are saying that we (normals) whatever the fuck that is?, inwardly dream of experiencing the life of a sociopath and the moments of ecstasy that accompany it, and likewise? Because I believe the ability to experience both lies in ALL of us, its the moment of ACTIONS that set us apart.

And clarification needed....not saying we are gay/lesbian in our minds, yet we have all fantasized about the act, and the shear fact that we are capable of THINKING it, says we are capable of acting on it as well. Behavior modification is what sets us apart from sociopaths. We have the same thaughts and impulses, we have just learned to control them...... so aren't we all somewhat sociopath?

Haha.....me educate you? Now, that's a "wow" ;) I guess i have spent the last year with a sociopath, (frienship with benefits) and rather than focusing how oddly different we are, I found myself in intrenched in how remarkably similar we are......the friendship has opened a spring of life in me that's unquenchable. (On many levels). Trying to learn myself.

I don't think the majority of people have fantasies about gay sex. The majority of heterosexuals find the idea disgusting. Likewise the majority of gays harbour notions of straights all being secretly gay and transexuals being either gay or straight. The point being..it's really really hard to see through into completely different neuro types. I didn't suggest the pinnacle of norm experience is fantasies about fearlessness/shamelessness. I suggested such things were at their best in the fantasies of norms.

I think disgust is sexual repression. Sex is an animal urge, and like dogs, people are just sexual. Preference doesn't eliminate the urges we may have for opposing sexes. Gay people tend to see what happens when men let go. And I imagine it happens a lot. There's really no point to the additives people have placed on sexual interactions. Emotions, standards, social norms, etc. It'll always just be sex. A person's natural desire for an orgasm and closeness to another person.

Well said Kany. I think you would be very surprised how many people have entertained same sex encounter thoughts/fantacies. Very doubtful that you would get many admissions of it, but it is what it is. Sex example was to validate my point of, how much of what a "normal" person does is simply behavior modifications to fall into the social norms? Do I respond the way I respond because I am empathetic, or have I been trained the proper way to respond? I still have the same feelings inside of me of a sociopath, i identify completely, yet i respond correctly.i know i am not without empathy. Socioempth? Haha.

I think there are some things you just cannot socially do as a sociopath. A sociopath will act on things that have been socially trained out of other people by way of shame and empathy... period. It isn't about what you feel. Everyone feels similarly as humans. Its about what you do. If you act normal, you're normal. You wouldn't respond to training if you were not empathetic... as sociopaths do not.

An example, not all dominatrices are sociopaths. But the dominatrices who are in that occupation are still socially adherent. They have merely found a social environment in which they can acceptingly act on their inner impulses. A sociopath would not need this environment but would coerce people to be deviant on their own terms and in their own desired locations.

If I act normal, but don't feel normal doesn't that just make me a good actress? Just because I respond correctly does not by any means make me "normal". I am a nothing more than a "stained glass masquerade".

That's not true, because everyone is acting normal. That's why people have different facades for different places. Work face, home face, bar face, cafe face, car sales floor face. Etc. People always act.

Then what sets a sociopath apart from myself? They lie, deceive, lack empathy yada yada.....isn't my facade all of those things also?. I dunno, but the sociopath I know is a good person.....I cannot see so much difference between my "normal" and his sociopathy.....its just deceit packaged differently

What is a normal person? What is a good person? Maybe that is why I see him not much different than myself. At least he is true to his darkness, while the rest of us work diligently to cover it up. He is damnable, but without a doubt the most stimulating mind I have ever met. Brilliant! I understand his lack of genuineness in our relationship .......maybe I have diluted myself into thinking he has a soft spot for me.... but I actually know better. Question though, why are the sexual encounters so over the top?

Maybe revulsion about undesired sex acts is repression. I'm acknowledging it is possible. But what I think is that, actually if you turn things around, you find there are kinds of sex you find disgusting for reasons you regard as legitimate. Do the majority of gays have fantasies about straight sex? Or do they find the idea of pussy a big turn off (often to with smell)

Kany, I hear ya, really, I do. Point taken. I guess i am delusional. Good, bad, normal, abnormal, are just abstract terminology.....words that define nothing absolute. I am good, I am bad, I am normal, I am abnormal .........it all means nothing. You are sociopath outwardly, I am sociopath inwardly. You are impulse driven and act out (possible), I am impulse driven and get off? Its just confusing as hell to me.

Is he sociopath: hand tremors, seizures, bpd, ocd, no empathy, quote "I felt nothing on 9/11" anxiety attacks, sex addict, obsessed with Dr. Who, vampire junky, HIGHLY intelligent, will not accept blame, turns tables, punishes harshly, no job, hermit lifestyle, women worship his dick (me included), actually most insane sexual encounter ever, lies easily, makes you feel sorry for him, connects on an insane intellectual level, yet can be so childlike that it confuses you as to "is he really this smart" or "is he really this dumb". I'm in a constant state of confusion because I want him insanely. My story would blow your mind. He has turned good girl VERY bad. I know and see everything, but I am so addicted to this guy that i cannot see straight. HE KNOWS THIS......which makes him my master......death seems easier.

I could have posted this, OMG I put up with almost the same bullshit for almost a year. I found this website 18 days ago and that is when I decided to cut all communication off with him. I mark it off on a calendar like a fucking addict. I will NEVER let him in again EVER. But I feel like shit everyday. I have never felt a loss like this for anyone like I do for him. I am 34 and divorced, still nothing comes close. After experiencing what I did with him, my life now is just empty and dull. NOBODY else interests me. I just want to want normal again, but I want crazy, I hate it. Anyhow, I "empathize" with you. I do have a new appreciation for all the things that I can feel. I even have a new appreciation for anyone who can feel love for me. I don't take it for granted for one second now after dealing with what I dealt with. That is one positive. Have you posted your story? Will you? I would like to read it.

Thx for identifying with me and for the song. Can't really share my story here. My life is upside down. I am, from the outside, a perfectly "normal", got her shit together woman, but nothing could be farther from the truth. Crazy how someone who cannot feel has made me feel more than I have ever felt before. Not only feelings for him, but he has started me on a journey to finding myself....my truest self. Its beautiful at moments, and scary as hell at the same time. He has reduced me to nothingness so many times, yet in that nothingness I have found so much self awareness that it sucks me further into him.....wanting more and more. Pain somehow has become pleasurable?!?.....the pain intensifies the pleasure. How can this be? I watch him manipulate people, I see it clearly.....but instead of disgust, I challenge my own self righteousness.......I am no better than him.....I feel on the inside what he expresses on the outside.....so who is "normal" here. I cannot believe how twisted up I am and not to mention I am a hot mess 24/7.

Well, the "emotionality" of my mood swings are real. I hurt inside. After the relief, you would think it was a act. But this pain cutting into my heart you cannot see because I hide it. I spend a good deal of my life hiding it.

Ok YES, I read a person and I can tell them what they want to hear, and yes, I manipulate very well, and YES it is sometimes very convenient to pull out the tears. If I wanted to, I could play soft little broken bird and take advantage of people's good will. I don't think I like the way that makes me feel, though.

I do not know if it is my "conscience", or that I just do not like to take advantage of people. But I think I'm going with:

I do not have real guilt. I do not believe in it. I believe in cause and effect and regret and yes, I believe in shame. I have to because I have it. Does the shame give me my conscience? Idk. Is conscience just where one's code is? Idk.

Conscience is, by one theory I like, something that is developed through mutually responsive orientation mother and child. I like to take it a step further because pet scans indicate the human prefrontal cortex is not fully developed until long after the child is typically finished being reared. I would qualify those early adulthood relationships one has around their age 25 to make judgment regarding the veracity of conscience in said individual and the role the conscience will subsequently play in their life.

Guilt is an external influence. Religions rely on guilt to make congregations conform. If you are into religion then you might feel guilt. I think religion is the only reason I ever felt guilt, and stepping back from that mindfuck completely ameliorated that condition. Non religious does not absolutely connotate sociopathic, though I am. My shrink told me the aspd thing is not so much about a lack of guilt because sociopaths may be forced to feel guilt from time to time without countering that guilt with remorse.

I have the tiny voice that knows right from wrong. I listen to it. Sometimes I don't ask to hear it, though. I say something or act out beforehand, before I can fully imagine the other's reaction, before I can imagine the result, and before i can decide I am being like a child.

Other occasions i do get confused because on the one hand I have the narcissism telling me fuck that, fuck them, I don't give a fuck, I'll do what i fucking want, let them try to control me, OR I allow myself to tell myself something I WANT TO HEAR (lie to myself) so I can get away with something. I look back after the fact and say I am so foolish child but I forgive myself easily. Because- - - - - - - - - - - It happens fast. It's almost like I skipped the little section of the directions like a kid with the add.

but/and

I have essentially gamed myself out of listening to the tiny voice because in the moment it is convenient. - - I do not like to feel when I have given more than I perceive I get back.

I have these debates in my head to the point I don't want to do anything at all, I don't care, I am confused, I want to sit on the couch, masturbate, and eat popsicles for breakfast.

That is why I do not want to deal with these kinds of debating anymore. I do not want to want to have so much control of when another "takes" from me.

I just want to rely on what makes me feel good, and just straight up tell people this is who i am, take me or leave me. I am inconsistent and unreliable because I try to be more conscientious than I really want to be.

^That is not conscience. It is approval-seeking or codepedence or Idk what . But it is not healthy way to live, being afraid to go here or go there, afraid to know what I want and just ask for something because I want it. I remember Ukan said a very long time ago that you would be surprised at how many people will just give you what you want if you just ask. It is true. I have been surprised.

It is demand what you want, Ukan, not ask for what you want. Definitely think I should add hearing voices dictate your behavior presents the issue you are psychotic, in a schizophrenic sense. The best way to handle those, as you have done, is to ignore. What I ignore are the fucking boring social norms, and you should ignore them too.

I think the depression that sociopath's feel is an episode of prolong regret. Regret that a situation isn't what they would like it to be. I've felt that kind of depression before. I would wake up every day and come to the conclusion that I was less than what I should be, and I would regret having squandered the opportunity to fix that sooner. And I would regret that the decisions I made up to that point hadn't put me on a better playing field.

The sociopath version of depression is cognitive dissonance over their own situation and their thought of the future.

Any sociopath who seriously thinks sociopaths cannot experience their own form of depression are coincidentally fortunate or low-functioning.

One sense I disagree with other sociopaths is this idea of not feeling fear, depression, closeness, kindness, and so on. I think the reason sociopaths say this is because the words themselves were invented for mainstream norms. They are the wrong words for us..the wrong definitions the wrong subtleties. Some words are needed.

depression |diˈpre sh ən|noun1 severe despondency and dejection, typically felt over a period of time and accompanied by feelings of hopelessness and inadequacy.• Medicine a condition of mental disturbance characterized by such feelings to a greater degree than seems warranted by the external circumstances, typically with lack of energy and difficulty in maintaining concentration or interest in life : clinical depression.• a long and severe recession in an economy or market : the depression in the housing market.• ( the Depression or the Great Depression) the financial and industrial slump of 1929 and subsequent years.

2 the lowering or reducing of something : the depression of prices.• the action of pressing down on something : depression of the plunger delivers two units of insulin.• a sunken place or hollow on a surface : the original shallow depressions were slowly converted to creeks.• Astronomy & Geography the angular distance of an object below the horizon or a horizontal plane.• Meteorology a region of lower atmospheric pressure, esp. a cyclonic weather system.

cognitive dissonancenoun Psychologythe state of having inconsistent thoughts, beliefs, or attitudes, esp. as relating to behavioral decisions and attitude change.

Saying "depression is cognitive dissonance" is like saying apples are turnips.

"I would wake up every day and come to the conclusion that I was less than what I should be, and I would regret having squandered the opportunity to fix that sooner. And I would regret that the decisions I made up to that point hadn't put me on a better playing field."

This doesn't sound like cognitive dissonance to me. Sounds more like depression.

Depression: "severe despondency and dejection, typically felt over a period of time and accompanied by feelings of hopelessness and inadequacy."

cognitive dissonance: "the state of having inconsistent thoughts, beliefs, or attitudes, esp. as relating to behavioral decisions and attitude change."

Caesar:""I would wake up every day and come to the conclusion that I was less than what I should be, and I would regret having squandered the opportunity to fix that sooner. And I would regret that the decisions I made up to that point hadn't put me on a better playing field.""

"Everyday...I was less than what I should be... I would regret that the decisions I made up to that point hadn't put me on a better playing field"

very close to

"typically felt over a period of time and accompanied by feelings of hopelessness and inadequacy."

Where is your "inconsistent thoughts, beliefs, or attitudes"?

You want to know why I am pulling your dick? You have "know" clue as to what you are talking about.

Speaking of depression, gungy, I was wondering:Why did you let the life you wanted slip away instead of creating your life for yourself? You settled for the life that got handed to you. That's the thing I think I have the hardest time putting together with your claims at sociopathy.

Perhaps going with the flow can be sociopathic. Has anyone heard of a sociopath being lazy to the degree of not dictating the direction of their life?

I think I might have said something about the "social chameleon". I have been able to adapt to whatever and wherever I go or whoever I am around, and succeed in whatever group. I have almost NO long term wants/goals. Although I didn't stay the entertainer, I really have enjoyed much of my time as a Marine. It hasn't been boring.

I see the signs/symptoms associated with ASPD in myself, but as UKan kept telling me "You're a Narc", I do see a lot of NPD traits in me as well.

Kany I want to ask you a question. I realized what my problem was, with your help. It is loss of personal power. That is the answer to the problem, yet getting it back won't be as simple as knowing the answer. What do you think?

You have to realise you gave your power away when you decided to let go of the real feelings you felt. Now you have to regain power by embracing your right and need to be angry with your mother. Anger is the power you gave her. You choose to submit when you ignore your anger.

Monica, I think we all know you aren't capable of a violent massacre. Try yelling at a picture of your mother, or maybe writing a letter. Paint pictures of her or draw Hitler mustaches and devil horns on her picture. Experiment with expressing yourself, and build yourself up to tell her calmly that you are angry, and that you were hurt by how little affection she showed you. Start here. What are you mad at your mother for?

A PD may be seen as a loss of power ( or an uber concentration of power to one part of the self,to the exclusion of others) I will explain.

Co-dependency--one's power is lost and given to others for approvalNarc--one's power goes to the false self while the real self has lost most of it's usable power

BPD--one's power has been almost completely lost. One's power is in how the outside views one and treats one

ASPD--one has uber empowered the tough part of oneself and lost connection with the tender part

An emotionally healthy person has his own power under his command. He can shift from tender to tough, as the need arises. He can accept his weakness and vulnerability and not cast it off, as an orphan or mentally ill relative, shunned to the attic.

He can be strong, when needed. He can depend on others. He can seek attention, as we all need it. He can seek to feel special, as we all need it.

However, all these slices are usable and accepted slices of the person. He accepts all parts of himself, as part of his human nature.

I have noticed, Monica. And I see an Anon is using the Lil Boo urges thing. Monica I can't say there are not days where I read your post and want to choke the shit out of you, but your story does intrigue me. I really would like to see you take this to the forum though... it kills so much space here in the comments. You do tend to get in lengthy conversation; just saying.

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Of course, my default is still to intuitively analyze every outcome and situation and achieve the best result, but it's more interesting to let people remain a variable and go in their own direction, rather than nudging them in the direction I prefer. Interacting with people WITHOUT trying to control them is a new paradigm for me.