Remember that made up character we all hate, who has the terribad romance subplot that we all hate with a beardless dwarf (shameful)?

I think it's possible for Jackson to be writing her off in the 150 minute battle movie.
I'm estimating the actual Battle of the Five Armies will take around 45 minutes to an hour, which seems fair. What would they do in such a time frame? Obviously, they will have Thorin kill Azog, and die from his wounds, and Fili and Kili will die defending him, but what if Tauriel also died near the start, to give Kili even more motivation and drive to keep fighting?

It would please the fans, because it would satisfy their shipping needs, and would satisfy the haters, because she dies. Win/win situation here.

Don't know why I even bother, given the lack of sense in any of these movies , but...

How is Tauriel's likely death going to affect Legolas' feelings towards Dwarves? Legolas can't be too friendly with Dwarves by the end of The Hobbit, nor too hostile. In FotR, Legolas is somewhat antagonistic to Gimli, but by Lothlorien, they are starting to become friends (at least in the extended addition). Can't remember at Rivendell Legolas even acknowledging Gloin's presence.

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There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.

One wonders what they are going to do with the Seventh Doctor, that is to say Rrrrrrrrradagast the Brrrrrrrrrrown, as well. Not very glorious for him to 'disappear' like he more or less does after meeting Gandalf in The Lord of the Rings, is it? He can hardly declare at the end of the inevitable Dol Guldur rescue sequence: "Ooh dear me Gandalf, this has all been very frightening. I'm going to go into hiding now. See you when I see you," and scamper off, can he?

The thread topic actually rather struck me in terms of how much the Tauriel character embodies the 'Hobbit' films as adaptations compared to those of The Lord of the Rings. Here we find an entirely invented character given significant screentime and even a plot of her own. The nearest equivalent, if memory serves, would be the unnecessary character of 'Mardil' as Faramir's offsider in the second and third films of The Lord of the Rings (what was wrong with Damrod and/or Mablung?). Yet 'Mardil' is extremely minor as things go, and doesn't have his own plot in any sense of the word. Nonetheless his death scene rather makes me think that PJ's Azog is in a sense a rehash of his Gothmog. This in itself is a failure to understand a major notion in Tolkien's work, in my opinion: of the Orc as representative of the utterly degraded conscript-soldier. Focusing on 'leaders' and big, muscly, villainous Orc-generals who get to chat with Sauron and the Ringwraiths completely misses the point Tolkien achieves by providing us with the discourse of low-ranking officers like Shagrat and Gorbag for whom the situation is completely out of their control. I digress...

It's just striking how moot a point it is whether 'Tauriel' lives or dies: we know she's not in PJ's The Lord of the Rings, which highlights the absurdity of introducing a new character in a prequel whom we already know has no bearing whatsoever upon how things play out in the long run, and then putting them in the spotlight. If she's used to motivate Kíli (and possibly bring about his own death) then it's just emblematic of how the writers have utterly failed to capitalise upon the very bones they were thrown by the text, which they have show by such decisions as leaving Thorin's relationship to his nephews as, thus far, a line or two of dialogue. I honestly felt one of the most interesting 'invented' moments in 'The Desolation of Smaug' was when Thorin told Fíli that he would be king one day and have to face tough decisions. Not something Professor Tolkien would probably write about, but at least they were using material that was already there and thus actually fitted the story, rather than inventing ideas which inevitably do not fit the existing narrative they are nonetheless trying to follow, thus distorting it.

There's a moment in Moria in the Extended Edition of 'The Fellowship of the Ring' where I believe Gandalf mentions Thorin by name when recalling Bilbo's dwarf-mail. No one ever says anything about 'Tauriel' or Radagast or 'That time sixty years ago when Sauron, who we're now saying has just reappeared, sent a huge army to attack the Lonely Mountain' and despite supposedly having been 'entombed' until very recently the Ringwraiths already rule Minas Morgul. An effective Hobbit-as-prequel would have been one which was actually a prequel (explaining how Bilbo got to where he was, mostly) and not one which tries to tell a story which is, in a sense, bigger and more climactic than the very tale it is meant to precede.

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"Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir."
"On foot?" cried Éomer.

One wonders what they are going to do with the Seventh Doctor, that is to say Rrrrrrrrradagast the Brrrrrrrrrrown, as well. Not very glorious for him to 'disappear' like he more or less does after meeting Gandalf in The Lord of the Rings, is it? He can hardly declare at the end of the inevitable Dol Guldur rescue sequence: "Ooh dear me Gandalf, this has all been very frightening. I'm going to go into hiding now. See you when I see you," and scamper off, can he?

The thread topic actually rather struck me in terms of how much the Tauriel character embodies the 'Hobbit' films as adaptations compared to those of The Lord of the Rings. Here we find an entirely invented character given significant screentime and even a plot of her own. The nearest equivalent, if memory serves, would be the unnecessary character of 'Mardil' as Faramir's offsider in the second and third films of The Lord of the Rings (what was wrong with Damrod and/or Mablung?). Yet 'Mardil' is extremely minor as things go, and doesn't have his own plot in any sense of the word. Nonetheless his death scene rather makes me think that PJ's Azog is in a sense a rehash of his Gothmog. This in itself is a failure to understand a major notion in Tolkien's work, in my opinion: of the Orc as representative of the utterly degraded conscript-soldier. Focusing on 'leaders' and big, muscly, villainous Orc-generals who get to chat with Sauron and the Ringwraiths completely misses the point Tolkien achieves by providing us with the discourse of low-ranking officers like Shagrat and Gorbag for whom the situation is completely out of their control. I digress...

It's just striking how moot a point it is whether 'Tauriel' lives or dies: we know she's not in PJ's The Lord of the Rings, which highlights the absurdity of introducing a new character in a prequel whom we already know has no bearing whatsoever upon how things play out in the long run, and then putting them in the spotlight. If she's used to motivate Kíli (and possibly bring about his own death) then it's just emblematic of how the writers have utterly failed to capitalise upon the very bones they were thrown by the text, which they have show by such decisions as leaving Thorin's relationship to his nephews as, thus far, a line or two of dialogue. I honestly felt one of the most interesting 'invented' moments in 'The Desolation of Smaug' was when Thorin told Fíli that he would be king one day and have to face tough decisions. Not something Professor Tolkien would probably write about, but at least they were using material that was already there and thus actually fitted the story, rather than inventing ideas which inevitably do not fit the existing narrative they are nonetheless trying to follow, thus distorting it.

There's a moment in Moria in the Extended Edition of 'The Fellowship of the Ring' where I believe Gandalf mentions Thorin by name when recalling Bilbo's dwarf-mail. No one ever says anything about 'Tauriel' or Radagast or 'That time sixty years ago when Sauron, who we're now saying has just reappeared, sent a huge army to attack the Lonely Mountain' and despite supposedly having been 'entombed' until very recently the Ringwraiths already rule Minas Morgul. An effective Hobbit-as-prequel would have been one which was actually a prequel (explaining how Bilbo got to where he was, mostly) and not one which tries to tell a story which is, in a sense, bigger and more climactic than the very tale it is meant to precede.

I think it's pretty clear that PJ is trying to outdo Lord of the Rings. This is a terrible idea, considering how in lore, the events that take place in Lord of the Rings are MUCH more important. The most important parts in the long term in the Hobbit were Riddles in the Dark, killing Smaug, and the Battle of the Five Armies.

I will give PJ that Riddles in the Dark was fantastic, but if you try to outdo something which has a much bigger scale and higher stakes by nature, you will fail. Tauriel was probably put there to appease the female audience, all of which don't care that there are no females in Middle Earth, because they're too busy cooking and cleaning to be part of the action, save 2.

By killing Tauriel, everyone wins, and if Tauriel dies a dwarf-lover, Legolas would ease to the idea, which works well-ish. PJ made a lot of mistakes by bringing Azog back to life, inventing new characters everywhere, and taking 'artistic license' for what you can't really change. If you want to change up the story, make a parody, or an interpretation in a different setting. Don't try and change what was already complete.

One wonders what they are going to do with the Seventh Doctor, that is to say Rrrrrrrrradagast the Brrrrrrrrrrown, as well. Not very glorious for him to 'disappear' like he more or less does after meeting Gandalf in The Lord of the Rings, is it? He can hardly declare at the end of the inevitable Dol Guldur rescue sequence: "Ooh dear me Gandalf, this has all been very frightening. I'm going to go into hiding now. See you when I see you," and scamper off, can he?

Nice observation! I didn't even think about that one.

If Radagast is such a major player when Bilbo finds the Ring, why is he so absent when Frodo goes to destroy it? Kind of like Gandalf's Anti-Nazgul flashnight not being available when he and Pip are being abused on the White Tower by the W-K.

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There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.

I still haven't subjected myself to the TH films, but the plot complications brought by introducing characters independent of the source material, or away from the original author's intent, are well illustrated here, especially when you're doing it in a prequel to films you've already released.
Oh well. George Lucas voided himself all over his excellent original trilogy by monkeying with the prequels in that way, and was none the worse for it financially. Jackson's hardly treading on unknown ground.

Remember that made up character we all hate, who has the terribad romance subplot that we all hate with a beardless dwarf (shameful)?

I think it's possible for Jackson to be writing her off in the 150 minute battle movie.
I'm estimating the actual Battle of the Five Armies will take around 45 minutes to an hour, which seems fair. What would they do in such a time frame? Obviously, they will have Thorin kill Azog, and die from his wounds, and Fili and Kili will die defending him, but what if Tauriel also died near the start, to give Kili even more motivation and drive to keep fighting?

It would please the fans, because it would satisfy their shipping needs, and would satisfy the haters, because she dies. Win/win situation here.

Thoughts?

I wouldn't mind if she dies. Her scenes were quite awkward. I didn't see Kili or Legolas falling for a girl and starting a love triangle(I hate stupid love triangles). I'm not a Kili or Legolas fangirl, it'll be fine to see her dying.

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A short saying oft contains much wisdom.
~Sophocles

After Radagast saves Gandalf from Dol Guldur, the writers could have the Brown one bunny-sled into the Battle of the Five* Armies. He could then see Tauriel and Bilbo both be wounded, and he then has to make a choice: save the elf or hobbit with his Stone of Darkness Absorption. What to do?

Following Kili's romantically tragic death (from a Morgul paper cut), Tauriel sacrifices herself and instructs Radagast to save Bilbo instead, as 'he will bring peace to Middle Earth.' Radagast holds the elf maid until she dies (with the appropriate amount of glowing), and then burns himself, his staff and the Arkenstone out saving Bilbo.

In the aftermath (and 10 hours of constant battle), the Brown wizard meets with Gandalf. For once he's not silly. His staff is shattered, that stone thing he uses is gone, and the Arkenstone shines no more. After witnessing so much humanoid and bunny death and destruction, he states that he's retreating to Rhosgobel after letting Gandalf know that he wasn't up for such tasks.

Or something.

*Actual number of warring parties may vary.

__________________

There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.

After Radagast saves Gandalf from Dol Guldur, the writers could have the Brown one bunny-sled into the Battle of the Five* Armies. He could then see Tauriel and Bilbo both be wounded, and he then has to make a choice: save the elf or hobbit with his Stone of Darkness Absorption. What to do?

Following Kili's romantically tragic death (from a Morgul paper cut), Tauriel sacrifices herself and instructs Radagast to save Bilbo instead, as 'he will bring peace to Middle Earth.' Radagast holds the elf maid until she dies (with the appropriate amount of glowing), and then burns himself, his staff and the Arkenstone out saving Bilbo.

In the aftermath (and 10 hours of constant battle), the Brown wizard meets with Gandalf. For once he's not silly. His staff is shattered, that stone thing he uses is gone, and the Arkenstone shines no more. After witnessing so much humanoid and bunny death and destruction, he states that he's retreating to Rhosgobel after letting Gandalf know that he wasn't up for such tasks.

Or something.

*Actual number of warring parties may vary.

To be honest, I was wondering how many parties will be at the battle. I completely agree that Tauriel would do a 'Save the hobbit instead' cliche.

I've been pulling for movie-Radagast to get the same treatment as book-Radagast. And that is to just completely drop out of the story and disappear without explanation. It would at least be fitting and probably the only accurate thing PJ does in the last movie.

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I used to be for flip-flopping. Now I'm against it.

I've been pulling for movie-Radagast to get the same treatment as book-Radagast. And that is to just completely drop out of the story and disappear without explanation. It would at least be fitting and probably the only accurate thing PJ does in the last movie.

You know Radagast will be involved. You know it, and you hate it. PJ is going to force him with his rabbit-sled into the Battle of the Five Armies.

You know Radagast will be involved. You know it, and you hate it. PJ is going to force him with his rabbit-sled into the Battle of the Five Armies.

Yea. We've gotta find out what *really* happens if Rhosgobel Rabbits are forced into a straight-up, do or die fight with Gundabad Wargs.

Maybe we'll find some interesting side effect from whatever Radagast has been feeding them - like they turn from fast, furry friends to ...

(oh, those poor, surprised, wargs )

---- actually ---- maybe the rabbits will be the way Beorn breaks through Bolg's bodyguard of orcs during the battle. [the rabbits go berzerk and wipe out a mass of wargs holding Beorn in check]. I mean, it's not in the book - but when has that stopped PJ from a "plot twist" - especially if it "lets the fur fly".

Don't forget the hedgehog - Sebastian will show up at the critical moment and turn the tide of the battle, thanks to whatever Radagast has been feeding him.

Good thought. Maybe we'll discover that Hedgehogs are to Wargs like Mice are to Elephants

Picture Sebastian ambling through the battle, perhaps oblivious due to <well> whatever Radagast has been feeding him, and wargs getting wide eyes as they start in shock and turn tail in terror [in the process, trampling the orc that was about to kill Tauriel - allowing PJ to have her survive - only do die of a broken heart when Kili doesn't].

Radagast will have a huge scene where he pleads for the life of the dragon Smaug, as not so much a bad spawn of Satan or bad banker but simply a misunderstood animal. PETA will be the acknowledged advisors for this scene, because without them the RRabbits would have been fed to the dragon.

This earnest pleading earns him such loathing from the dwarves that he is pelted with rotten mushrooms and bird dung and runs away. The smell of him attracts some orcs who break away from the battle to catch hi--thereby saving the day and allowing the good guys to win--but he falls down a rabbit hole and meets the Red Queen who promptly proclaims, "Off with his head". Luckily he discovers that some of the rotten mushroom stuck to him is edible and it shrinks him so she can no longer see him, thereby saving him for his non-appearance in LotR.

__________________I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

This earnest pleading earns him such loathing from the dwarves that he is pelted with rotten mushrooms and bird dung and runs away. The smell of him attracts some orcs who break away from the battle to catch hi--thereby saving the day and allowing the good guys to win--but he falls down a rabbit hole and meets the Red Queen who promptly proclaims, "Off with his head". Luckily he discovers that some of the rotten mushroom stuck to him is edible and it shrinks him so she can no longer see him, thereby saving him for his non-appearance in LotR.

Look for the Frumious Bandersnatch in the extended edition. Maybe Grace Slick will come out of retirement and sing over the closing credits.

Now that the new trailer is out, I think it's safe to say that the terrible romance subplot is going to be forced upon us once again. I really hope that Tauriel is nowhere near Kili when he dies, because if she is, it's just going to be disgusting.

Now that the new trailer is out, I think it's safe to say that the terrible romance subplot is going to be forced upon us once again. I really hope that Tauriel is nowhere near Kili when he dies, because if she is, it's just going to be disgusting.

I'm under the impression that the rock handing scene happened while Kili was dying.

I'm under the impression that the rock handing scene happened while Kili was dying.

No-oo… my guess is that’s an early, pre-battle scene of Very Subtle Foreshadowing; however, there’s a brief shot towards the end of the trailer in which our favourite red-headed Elf-Sue is shown weeping, and I’d guess that’s when Kili actually kicks the bucket. There’s also a shot of Tauriel being flung against a wall, so that might be when *she* dies.

No-oo… my guess is that’s an early, pre-battle scene of Very Subtle Foreshadowing; however, there’s a brief shot towards the end of the trailer in which our favourite red-headed Elf-Sue is shown weeping, and I’d guess that’s when Kili actually kicks the bucket. There’s also a shot of Tauriel being flung against a wall, so that might be when *she* dies.

I'm not sure whether you're ok with the terribad romance subplot, or just being sarcastic.
People are allowed to like their favourite characters, unless the character never existed. Screw Tauriel, she's a terrible plot device which should just be eaten by Smaug for some reason.

I'm not sure whether you're ok with the terribad romance subplot, or just being sarcastic.
People are allowed to like their favourite characters, unless the character never existed. Screw Tauriel, she's a terrible plot device which should just be eaten by Smaug for some reason.