If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the forum FAQ and the House Rules and Forum Guidelines.
You will have to register before you can post. If you find your registration is rejected, please try again using a different username. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Suggestions for future versions
Individual ideas on one subject should still be posted in the wishlist thread, however if you want to discuss your idea with others please create your own thread. Please name your topics sensibly and give an indication of what it is about.
For general ideas or a list please use this Wishlist topic. You can view some older suggestions here

Is 'Cutting In' Role missing in Wizard for ML and MR?

I find it weird that ML and MR positions don't include such role. it's a quite basic thing in modern football imo (think of Ribery, Simao, Modric, Kranjcar, Cazorla, Pires, Gourcuff, Turan, Benayoun, Nani, Mancini, even Zidane, Ronaldo and Messi.. and other creative type of wingers).

Re: Is 'Cutting In' Role missing in Wizard for ML and MR?

I'd guess that ML/MR need the freedom to run down the wing first, ie. to an AML/AMR position, while AML/AMR are already there and thus can cut in from their position. If you told your ML/MR to cut inside then chances are they'd end up lost in the middle of the pitch.

Re: Is 'Cutting In' Role missing in Wizard for ML and MR?

Originally Posted by Hershie

I'd guess that ML/MR need the freedom to run down the wing first, ie. to an AML/AMR position, while AML/AMR are already there and thus can cut in from their position. If you told your ML/MR to cut inside then chances are they'd end up lost in the middle of the pitch.

Re: Is 'Cutting In' Role missing in Wizard for ML and MR?

Originally Posted by Hershie

I'd guess that ML/MR need the freedom to run down the wing first, ie. to an AML/AMR position, while AML/AMR are already there and thus can cut in from their position. If you told your ML/MR to cut inside then chances are they'd end up lost in the middle of the pitch.

Re: Is 'Cutting In' Role missing in Wizard for ML and MR?

in real life you can instruct players to make runs and move wherever you want. and you can't do that in FM with default ML and MR roles.

usually teams which play that way have fullback who overlaps and provides width instead of winger and strikers roam around.

it's all about movement, not positioning.

You're talking about wingers, not wide-midfielders though. Wide-midfielders stay wide, thus their name. Wingers at all but the very top level will be responsible for staying wide and simply getting crosses in, with the fullbacks lacking the ability or vision to support them or the defence lacking the ability to cover for them.

If you want your ML/MR to play that way though, change their settings so they do, but I can't imagine it'll work too well. The cutting in occurs higher up the pitch, ie. at the AML/AMR position, so if you want your players to do that play them there.

Re: Is 'Cutting In' Role missing in Wizard for ML and MR?

I have, and I know that the vast majority of wingers are not told to cut inside - only those at teams with fullbacks who can support attacks - and those who do usually play AML/R rather than ML/R.

Having the wide-midfielders set to 'normal' or 'moves into channels' for how they play on the wing does not mean they don't cut inside ever, but it means that they'll move into positions to best support the team's attacks, and normally this means staying wide to put crosses in.

What role are you actually trying to get your players to play? Wingers or wide-midfielders?

Re: Is 'Cutting In' Role missing in Wizard for ML and MR?

You can tell them to cut in. Click on them on the tactics screen, go to 'Advanced', and then change 'Wide Play' setting.

Tottenham play with AML and AMR, but the players are different and so have different roles. While whoever is at AML may have more freedom to drift inside, take shots, act as more of a playmaker, Lennon's role is to take the ball down the right wing, and then either put crosses in or run in to the box. He does not always cut inside however, but his pace and creativity, as well as the element of freedom allowed to him, means that he will cut inside when it's a good idea to.

What's your point here exactly? You can instruct your players to play totally different roles for similar positions if you want. Just because the defaults don't fit your players doesn't mean you can't do it. The tactics creator is a guide, not an absolute.

Re: Is 'Cutting In' Role missing in Wizard for ML and MR?

You can tell them to cut in. Click on them on the tactics screen, go to 'Advanced', and then change 'Wide Play' setting.

I really didn't know that, thanks.

Originally Posted by Hershie

Tottenham play with AML and AMR, but the players are different and so have different roles. While whoever is at AML may have more freedom to drift inside, take shots, act as more of a playmaker, Lennon's role is to take the ball down the right wing, and then either put crosses in or run in to the box. He does not always cut inside however, but his pace and creativity, as well as the element of freedom allowed to him, means that he will cut inside when it's a good idea to.

What's your point here exactly? You can instruct your players to play totally different roles for similar positions if you want. Just because the defaults don't fit your players doesn't mean you can't do it. The tactics creator is a guide, not an absolute.

Tottenham play basic 442 which allows players to express them selves the way you described. we can't do that with default roles which makes shouting instructions for that player useless for example. the way it is, current roles don't allow you play any other winger type than crossing wingers (and defensive winger whatever it is). but as you said in Tottenham example, there are other types of wingers, maybe not so typical for british football..

Re: Is 'Cutting In' Role missing in Wizard for ML and MR?

No problem!

Generally ML/MR aren't creative players or allowed much freedom, but if you wish to you can give them greater freedoms and roaming. As for AML/AMR you can perhaps give them playmaker settings but not make them playmaker, or set them as an inside forward. Obviously it's not 100% ideally but it's certainly very possible to get your players to play as you'd like them to.

Re: Is 'Cutting In' Role missing in Wizard for ML and MR?

I do, but they don't generally play in flat midfields. Also, as I've said, beyond the top teams such positions are not generally hugely creative players, but if you have creative players give them extra freedom and let them play a more expansive game.

Re: Is 'Cutting In' Role missing in Wizard for ML and MR?

Re: Is 'Cutting In' Role missing in Wizard for ML and MR?

Originally Posted by Hershie

I do, but they don't generally play in flat midfields. Also, as I've said, beyond the top teams such positions are not generally hugely creative players, but if you have creative players give them extra freedom and let them play a more expansive game.

I'm aware I can change instructions there's no need to keep repeating it. I'm talking about default roles, there are 15 different roles for MCs and STs but there's no creative role for wingers? even DCs have more role options than wingers.

Atletico, Villareal and Tottenham play basic 442 with all 4 midfielders in line when defending. Bayern played that way last year. also it is a common thing in my country league which is far from being the top. I would say it is a common thing everywhere outside UK.

Re: Is 'Cutting In' Role missing in Wizard for ML and MR?

There is no real creative role for wingers though. They're still wingers, just with more creative freedom. If you have a more creative team, play a more creative system with more freedom, but your wingers are still wingers.

Re: Is 'Cutting In' Role missing in Wizard for ML and MR?

They do, but as I'm saying the basic tactical defaults are only a guide. For the vast majority of players the basic instructions will surfice, but to get the best out of some players, partiucularly the top ones, tweaking beyond the default settings may be required. There's much more to tactics than just picking a role in the tactics creator.

Having said that, Kranjcar as a wide midfielder and Lennon as a winger and both with high levels of creative freedom should produce pretty good results.

Re: Is 'Cutting In' Role missing in Wizard for ML and MR?

Re: Is 'Cutting In' Role missing in Wizard for ML and MR?

Originally Posted by Hershie

They do, but as I'm saying the basic tactical defaults are only a guide. For the vast majority of players the basic instructions will surfice, but to get the best out of some players, partiucularly the top ones, tweaking beyond the default settings may be required. There's much more to tactics than just picking a role in the tactics creator.

there's no doubt about that.

Originally Posted by Hershie

Having said that, Kranjcar as a wide midfielder and Lennon as a winger and both with high levels of creative freedom should produce pretty good results.

I understand that we may have different wiew about this, no problem. also I'm aware that in UK this role is not widely accepted, you preffer traditional, fast crossing wingers.

try to understand that in other parts of the world such role actually exists and that all best players in one team play that way, no metter if they're ML or AML, it's 'the same thing' in real life. traditional #10, Trequartista or AMC Playmaker (or whatever you want to call it) just defends on the wing and has freedom to move wherever he wants.

Re: Is 'Cutting In' Role missing in Wizard for ML and MR?

I agree that they are missing a Messi type role on the wing, being a free roaming go wherever you want as long as you protect the flanks in the default wizard.

You can create this role with the instructions, but yeah, fair enough it isn't on the official roles.

yeah thank you. and AI will never chenge the instructions, which meens it will always set any type of winger with traditional/crossing role even if the player can't play what's demanded, for example right footed player with poor crossing ability and no pace, as a ML.

I already mentioned that shouting instructions don't work for players with changed instructions.

Re: Is 'Cutting In' Role missing in Wizard for ML and MR?

Yes it should be. I am sick of relying on PPM's just to get a team to play how I want.
Half the time they refuse to learn new moves as well, which is just plain annoying if there is no way to make them play a certain way in the tactics panel ..

Re: Is 'Cutting In' Role missing in Wizard for ML and MR?

The way I see it is that the flat wide-men isn't what most countries consider wingers. Wingers are the AML/AMR who may or may not have the instructions to "come deep for the ball". This means that a Lennon or Ribery will come pick up the ball at the ML/MR positions and then use their AML/AMR playing style to attack the opposition. Wingers were always the "run at people and cross", that's their original roles and as such they played higher up the pitch. It's only really in the invention of the 4-4-2 variation of tactics that more flatter wide-men have made a name for themselves.

Re: Is 'Cutting In' Role missing in Wizard for ML and MR?

whether wingers play as AMRL/MRL is determined by defensive shape of team and this is same in FM. in transition phase most wide players (wingers and fullbacks) will position higher than in defensive formation. the same thing happens in FM.

but once a team is in ball posession it doesn't make sense to talk about positioning but movement. what was Ibrahimovic position yestrday against Estudiantes for example? he spent whole 2nd half behind Messi, Pedro and Henry making runs from deep and moved to the flanks. was he a striker?

same thing with Lennon and Kranjcar. manager will just let them play their natural game and do what they're good at when attacking. when posession is lost they need to cover their MR and ML zone.

Re: Is 'Cutting In' Role missing in Wizard for ML and MR?

For those who want Modric to play for Spurs as he does irl- Ive found a bit of a solution. Seeing as Spurs allow him to play like that due to Ekotto or Bale being both able to play as wing backs and provide the real width on the left resulting in a lop sided formation, to replicate this I play them as such (either a wingback or attacking fullback) and then play Modric in a 3 man central midfield as a playmaker.

It seems to work defensively too if I play him on the left of the 3- as he tends to cover defensively out wide too.

This topic does show why many of us have criticised the tactical side, that for all its complexity it still doesnt give you the power to define offensive and defensive shape in an intuitive manner. SI really need to allow us to define this in such a manner- it would perhaps even eliminate some sliders- it would be very useful for those who like 433/451 too.

Re: Is 'Cutting In' Role missing in Wizard for ML and MR?

Originally Posted by Mitja

whether wingers play as AMRL/MRL is determined by defensive shape of team and this is same in FM. in transition phase most wide players (wingers and fullbacks) will position higher than in defensive formation. the same thing happens in FM.

but once a team is in ball posession it doesn't make sense to talk about positioning but movement. what was Ibrahimovic position yestrday against Estudiantes for example? he spent whole 2nd half behind Messi, Pedro and Henry making runs from deep and moved to the flanks. was he a striker?

same thing with Lennon and Kranjcar. manager will just let them play their natural game and do what they're good at when attacking. when posession is lost they need to cover their MR and ML zone.

I agree totally with this- and its why we need to define a defensive formation for the team, it would make it so much easier for players to then define where players should be covering when the ball is lost. We need more instructions- Lennon is an attacking player but due to his pace and workrate he covers Charlie (Corluka) well, where is the option to tell an attacking player with the neccessary attributes to support his fullback or double up? With the wizard FM is heading in the right direction but we need more.

Re: Is 'Cutting In' Role missing in Wizard for ML and MR?

Originally Posted by George Graham returns

For those who want Modric to play for Spurs as he does irl- Ive found a bit of a solution. Seeing as Spurs allow him to play like that due to Ekotto or Bale being both able to play as wing backs and provide the real width on the left resulting in a lop sided formation, to replicate this I play them as such (either a wingback or attacking fullback) and then play Modric in a 3 man central midfield as a playmaker.

if you set him manualy to Cut in and Roam and reduce his crossing he will actually play quite similar as he does irl. but we're not able to do it via wizard which makes shouting instructions useless for that player. AI can't change this instuctions, which will make wrong footed wide players less effective, but tbh I'm not even sure if AI chooses different roles than default ones. what I really can't understand is that AML/R positions have 2 'Cutting in' roles, with only big difference between ML/R and AML/R being defensive positioning.

Re: Is 'Cutting In' Role missing in Wizard for ML and MR?

Originally Posted by George Graham returns

I agree totally with this- and its why we need to define a defensive formation for the team, it would make it so much easier for players to then define where players should be covering when the ball is lost. We need more instructions- Lennon is an attacking player but due to his pace and workrate he covers Charlie (Corluka) well, where is the option to tell an attacking player with the neccessary attributes to support his fullback or double up? With the wizard FM is heading in the right direction but we need more.

I would love that and I think that's how it works irl, defensive shape is fixed and it is indeed about keeping that shape and good positioning. in attack the opposite happens, you need to brake opponent's shape, that's why attacking movement needs to be unpredictable and it's much more flexible than defensive movement. in FM player movement depends too much on positions and we hardly have any control over player movement. that's why I think having one more role for wide midfielders would inrcrease our choices (and AI too hopefully) in that department.

Re: Is 'Cutting In' Role missing in Wizard for ML and MR?

Originally Posted by Mitja

if you set him manualy to Cut in and Roam and reduce his crossing he will actually play quite similar as he does irl. but we're not able to do it via wizard which makes shouting instructions useless for that player.

Don't think this is true. Changing his 'wide play' option in the advanced settings does not have any effect on touchline shouts as far as I am aware.

with only big difference between ML/R and AML/R being defensive positioning.

Defensive and offensive positioning actually.

You can easily achieve this if you want to. Place player on opposite flank to his footedness, select 'wide play' option to 'cut inside' in advanced wizard options. Job done.

If I can get my fullback (right footer on left flank) to cut inside without even touching his 'wide play' setting (which is set to 'normal' by default) then you can easily do this with MR/ML.

Infact, MR and ML are set to 'normal' wide play when on the 'wide midfielder' role. Therefore, I feel confident that if you put a player on the opposite flank to his preferred foot, he will naturally come inside with the ball. Check it yourself.

Re: Is 'Cutting In' Role missing in Wizard for ML and MR?

why have different roles then in the first place? you are awere of the 'difference' between Central Defender Cover/Defend/Stopper? or Central Midfielder Support and Deep Playmaker Support..

You've lost me Mitja.

You are requesting a new role in the wide midfielder MR/ML position. So I am just asking you, what is this role you are talking about? It seems to me that you are talking about a 'wide midfielder' who cuts inside on to his stronger foot. This can be achieved already in the tactics creator.

I'm also making the point that most of the players you are bringing up as examples are really AMR/AML players who play as 'inside forwards' in FM speak.

Re: Is 'Cutting In' Role missing in Wizard for ML and MR?

Originally Posted by crouchaldinho

You've lost me Mitja.

You are requesting a new role in the wide midfielder MR/ML position. So I am just asking you, what is this role you are talking about? It seems to me that you are talking about a 'wide midfielder' who cuts inside on to his stronger foot. This can be achieved already in the tactics creator.

I'm also making the point that most of the players you are bringing up as examples are really AMR/AML players who play as 'inside forwards' in FM speak.

Regards,
C.

no in FM speak they are ML/R, official FM database confirms that too (T'ham, Atletico, Villareal, Bayern last year play 442 edit: most of the time).

he never played in 442 in his life? read a couple of posts up, you'll see I wrote, Bayern last year. I don't need to check web sites to tell you what formation Bayern played against Juve (Gomes and Olić up front), but Ribery wasn't playing...

you seem like smart person crouchy but what I can't understand is your constant defending of the game so blindly.

Re: Is 'Cutting In' Role missing in Wizard for ML and MR?

Originally Posted by Mitja

he never played in 442 in his life? read a couple of posts up, you'll see I wrote, Bayern last year. I don't need to check web sites to tell you what formation Bayern played against Juve (Gomes and Olić up front), but Ribery wasn't playing...

I didn't say that he has never played 4-4-2 and I'm using the website because I don't follow Bayern as closely as you obviously do, so I'm not as familiar with them.

you seem like smart person crouchy but what I can't understand is your constant defending of the game so blindly.

I'm not defending the game blindly at all and I resent that. I give constructive criticism about the game as you would have seen from my threads last year. I just like to be fair and I thought this was a subject that was up for discussion?

Re: Is 'Cutting In' Role missing in Wizard for ML and MR?

Originally Posted by Mitja

what does that site tell about Kranjcar against Blackburn, which position he played there?

Yes, and Kranjcar has the PPM 'cuts inside'.

What am I trying to say to you is that this is not really a 'role' in my opinion. Someone who plays MR/ML and who happens to cut inside sometimes is doing so because it is either part of their game (PPMs) or because they are naturally inclined to do so (because their favoured foot takes them inside). It is not a 'role' in the same way as an 'inside forward' role is. That would be my opinion about it.

Furthermore, I would argue that 90% of your player examples above are actually wingers anyway (AMR/AML). Most of them are playing 'inside forward' roles. Most of them are playing in 4-3-3s or 4-2-3-1s. Most of them have 'cuts inside' in FM as well.

So it seems that there is little problem to discuss here. Just my opinion of course.

Re: Is 'Cutting In' Role missing in Wizard for ML and MR?

Originally Posted by crouchaldinho

Yes, there are lots of changes to instructions between those three roles. I don't understand the point that you are trying to make here?

C.

you think 2 notches of closing down difference is enough to be a whole new Role/Duty but let's say Incoming Wingers don't deserve a new Role, they will naturally play in such maner because of their footedness?

Re: Is 'Cutting In' Role missing in Wizard for ML and MR?

Originally Posted by Mitja

you think 2 notches of closing down difference is enough to be a whole new Role/Duty but let's say Incoming Wingers don't deserve a new Role, they will naturally play in such maner because of their footedness?

Where are you getting this '2 notches of closing down' being a new role/duty from? I don't understand?

Re: Is 'Cutting In' Role missing in Wizard for ML and MR?

I'm not sure if I can make my argument any clearer but I will try and condense my points into bullet points.

- Most of the players you are talking about are AMRs and AMLs playing 'inside forward' in a 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3 in my opinion. This is basically a well known 'role' in modern football, as you know, and is used in formations utilising attacking wingers and forwards, especially those systems named in the previous sentence.

- An MR/ML, say in 4-4-2, is a 'wide midfielder'. It's not really a new 'role' to play someone there who likes to cut inside (PPM) or who cuts inside because he is naturally inclined to do so (footedness).

- If you choose to play Kranjcar, for instance, in a 4-4-2 with a 'wide midfielder' role, you will achieve exactly what you want. He will cut inside both due to his PPM and his footedness. So you can achieve exactly what you want in the game and you don't need to make a new role for it.

Re: Is 'Cutting In' Role missing in Wizard for ML and MR?

- no, most of those players I choosed because I'm ceratin that they played in 442 at one point in their carrer, except Messi but even he probably did. also your argument that there's really big difference between MLR/AMLR is falsed, it 'only' depends on formation (442-433) the team is using. most of these players are equally able to play in both types of formations.

Re: Is 'Cutting In' Role missing in Wizard for ML and MR?

Originally Posted by crouchaldinho

What am I trying to say to you is that this is not really a 'role' in my opinion. Someone who plays MR/ML and who happens to cut inside sometimes is doing so because it is either part of their game (PPMs) or because they are naturally inclined to do so (because their favoured foot takes them inside). It is not a 'role' in the same way as an 'inside forward' role is. That would be my opinion about it.

what's the point of having roles then? everyone has something that is a part of his game..

if there's Inside Forwrd role in 433 etc then surely there should be similar role for same players in 442 etc. players won't and can't change their play in slighly more defensive formation 451, or more attacking one 433.

Re: Is 'Cutting In' Role missing in Wizard for ML and MR?

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

I haven't voted on your poll by the way as neither of the answers were applicable for me.

I have seen a left-footer playing on the right wing in a 4-4-2 for my club actually last year. He did cut inside and his play was naturally different to that of a winger so I do understand your point. I just don't think that a new role is necessary. In my opinion, using the 'wide midfielder' option is fine in this case and it makes sense to me. That's what he is in my view.

This season my club are playing 4-3-3 or 4-1-4-1 with attacking wingers quite often. In this case, we have a right-footed player on the left. He is playing 'inside forward'. I see this as a separate role to the 'winger' role. Whereas I don't see the same difference between 'wide midfielder' and what you are describing. Hopefully you see what I mean.

Anyway, as I say, I think it is time to agree to disagree. Perhaps someone who is involved with the tactics creator will come in the thread and comment on this for you at some point.

Re: Is 'Cutting In' Role missing in Wizard for ML and MR?

One final thing actually.

What I would really love to see in the future, and I know a lot of other people would like it too, is the ability to customise the tactics creator settings. Everything from roles to duties, from passing schemes to mentality structures etc., so that you could design some of your own presets to go with the default options. Then you could make up your own roles for certain players, which I think would take the creator to the next level in my humble opinion. And it would certainly help in a case like this, where you feel that you want to do something slightly different, wouldn't it? What do you think?

Re: Is 'Cutting In' Role missing in Wizard for ML and MR?

Originally Posted by crouchaldinho

This season my club are playing 4-3-3 or 4-1-4-1 with attacking wingers quite often. In this case, we have a right-footed player on the left. He is playing 'inside forward'. I see this as a separate role to the 'winger' role.

Winger: Joe Cole/Malouda

Inside forward: Messi/Benayoun/Ribery/Ronaldo

Have I got it right? I've never understood the difference between the roles 100% actually..

Another thought: Joe Cole in the AMR position. Should he have forward runs & run with ball set to "often", or would that make him more of an "inside forward"? You would definately want him to have them set to "often" if you play him in the MR position so that he attacks, but when he starts in the AMR maybe he's already "where he's supposed to be" and can therefore have his forward runs set to "normal" so he doesn't drift out of position to much? What do you think?

Re: Is 'Cutting In' Role missing in Wizard for ML and MR?

Originally Posted by crouchaldinho

One final thing actually.

What I would really love to see in the future, and I know a lot of other people would like it too, is the ability to customise the tactics creator settings. Everything from roles to duties, from passing schemes to mentality structures etc., so that you could design some of your own presets to go with the default options. Then you could make up your own roles for certain players, which I think would take the creator to the next level in my humble opinion. And it would certainly help in a case like this, where you feel that you want to do something slightly different, wouldn't it? What do you think?

Regards,
C.

what I'd love is tactics to become linked to training. every tactical tweak manager makes will have fundations in training ground.

tactical aspect of the game would change from tweaking and finding the right tactics for right situation to building tactics and improving team's style and having plans for each match.

also I think we have too much micro control in some areas, which should come down to player ability and his habits, like player dribbling and shooting. on the other side we have far too little control over player movement which is very basic but much important instruction which I believe real managers are in direct control of. that's one of the reason why I think one role is missing for wide midfielders.