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The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Kid Minneapolis For This Useful Post:

Re: Non-Colts thread

I like Luck and don't doubt that he will be a great quarterback. But 3-4 years is a long time, and the sports world revolves around the present. If Manning carved Pitt up after not playing a real game since January 2011, then just imagine how badly he will be slaughtering teams mid-season. Manning owns those big prime time moments like last night, and I wish he was still doing them in Indy, the only place he should have ever played.

Re: Non-Colts thread

I like Luck and don't doubt that he will be a great quarterback. But 3-4 years is a long time, and the sports world revolves around the present. If Manning carved Pitt up after not playing a real game since January 2011, then just imagine how badly he will be slaughtering teams mid-season. Manning owns those big prime time moments like last night, and I wish he was still doing them in Indy, the only place he should have ever played.

I'll take "What is a sunshiner fan for $200, Alex?"

Our team was in shambles, dude, lol... Manning masked a lot of problems, but the problems were there. IF he was still here, he'd still be just masking problems and getting older. There is no question at this point in time, right now.... today... he is a better QB, and no one has said otherwise. But in a few years, when Denver is stuck without a QB and Luck is just hitting his prime, I'm gonna remember you said this.

Manning had a magical night last night, but need I remind everyone that precedence isn't kind for Denver's situation... name me 1 team that took on an aging legend and won a SB? Or got anymore than 3-4 years out of them? I love Manning, I loved watching the game last night, it brought back those old feelings, but it's not going to last for more than 2-3 years and then Denver is a new QB predicament.

Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 09-10-2012 at 11:08 AM.

There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

Re: Non-Colts thread

Just because I miss Manning doesn't mean that I don't think Luck will be a great QB. But Manning played here for 13 years. It's only natural to wish that he was on our team after watching yesterday.

Theoretically, you *could* have traded the pick for quite a haul of assets. I'm not debating whether it would have been a wise move or not, I'm just saying that you *could* have done it. Whatever you got from trading the pick could have fixed some of the problems. But let's not forget that this team would have won more games last year had they had average QB play. But they had what is maybe the worst rotation of QB's in modern NFL history. That is the primary reason we lost so many games.

Two years ago, we caught every bad break imaginable and still won 10 games. The year before that, every break seemed to go our way and we started out 14-0 and went to the Super Bowl. The truth is somewhere in the middle, which is about 12 wins. There is no question that Manning could have won 11-12 games with this cupcake schedule. Pointing that out does not make me anti-Colt or anti-Luck. I've been extremely high on Luck over the last few months, just go back and look at the posts I've made.

Re: Non-Colts thread

To me the Colts biggest mistake was not to find a way to trade Manning and get picks or something, how you let that guy just walk away like that?

Easy. Flexibility and respect. Letting him go instead of taking on new contracts and players gives Indy the flexibility to retool the way they want. Letting him walk allows Manning to choose where he wants to go on his own terms and not be tied to some situation he didn't want to be a part of. It allowed Manning to have suitors and he could choose the right situation for himself.

There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

Re: Non-Colts thread

Just because I miss Manning doesn't mean that I don't think Luck will be a great QB. But Manning played here for 13 years. It's only natural to wish that he was on our team after watching yesterday.

Theoretically, you *could* have traded the pick for quite a haul of assets. I'm not debating whether it would have been a wise move or not, I'm just saying that you *could* have done it. Whatever you got from trading the pick could have fixed some of the problems. But let's not forget that this team would have won more games last year had they had average QB play. But they had what is maybe the worst rotation of QB's in modern NFL history. That is the primary reason we lost so many games.

Two years ago, we caught every bad break imaginable and still won 10 games. The year before that, every break seemed to go our way and we started out 14-0 and went to the Super Bowl. The truth is somewhere in the middle, which is about 12 wins. There is no question that Manning could have won 11-12 games with this cupcake schedule. Pointing that out does not make me anti-Colt or anti-Luck. I've been extremely high on Luck over the last few months, just go back and look at the posts I've made.

Not disagreein with ya, I know you've posted some supportive posts in recent weeks, which makes your posts today look a little like they're hanging from a cliff. The tones of these posts a day after a rookie struggles and a legend shines is classic buyer's remorse, and you didn't make a bad purchase! You just gotta trust it and have faith that it will work out better down the road. Luck was the right choice, just gotta hang in there.

There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

Re: Non-Colts thread

Not disagreein with ya, I know you've posted some supportive posts in recent weeks, which makes your posts today look a little like they're hanging from a cliff. The tones of these posts a day after a rookie struggles and a legend shines is classic buyer's remorse, and you didn't make a bad purchase! You just gotta trust it and have faith that it will work out better down the road. Luck was the right choice, just gotta hang in there.

I understand all that, but I do think that my reaction is a very natural one. When one of the greatest players ever plays on your team for 13 years and sets record after record, it's pretty rough seeing him in another jersey, especially when you never dreamed of that scenario prior to a year ago. If he stays healthy, Denver probably wins 12 games and Manning wins MVP. As much as I like Luck, it's hard not to wish that Manning could have rode into the sunset at age 39 or 40 in a Colts uniform, as he should have all along.

Re: Non-Colts thread

To me the Colts biggest mistake was not to find a way to trade Manning and get picks or something, how you let that guy just walk away like that?

In order to trade PM, the Colts needed to have the rights to trade him. That meant paying him the option bonus of $28MM.

The next thing they needed to trade PM was an NFL team willing to step into the contract the Colts had for PM. That translates to a 4 year deal and $35.4MM. Since the Colts paid the first part of the contract in the first 2 years of $54.6MM, the Colts would also want some reimbursement in cash, which the trading team would have had to pay.

Assuming this happened, the Colts would then have to suffer the acceleration of the pro-rated portion of the cap hits to the current year or $38MM making the dead cap space for 2012 $62MM, or about 50% of the total team cap.

Releasing PM before paying him the option bonus of $28MM, resulted in a 2012 cap hit of $10.4MM and the dead cap space $34MM.

Re: Non-Colts thread

In order to trade PM, the Colts needed to have the rights to trade him. That meant paying him the option bonus of $28MM.

The next thing they needed to trade PM was an NFL team willing to step into the contract the Colts had for PM. That translates to a 4 year deal and $35.4MM. Since the Colts paid the first part of the contract in the first 2 years of $54.6MM, the Colts would also want some reimbursement in cash, which the trading team would have had to pay.

Assuming this happened, the Colts would then have to suffer the acceleration of the pro-rated portion of the cap hits to the current year or $38MM making the dead cap space for 2012 $62MM, or about 50% of the total team cap.

Releasing PM before paying him the option bonus of $28MM, resulted in a 2012 cap hit of $10.4MM and the dead cap space $34MM.

Re: Non-Colts thread

To me the Colts biggest mistake was not to find a way to trade Manning and get picks or something, how you let that guy just walk away like that?

because everyone knew they couldn't keep Peyton and Luck. too much money tied up for one spot. because both Peyton and Luck would want to start and that would lead to problems, some guys wanting Peyton to start, some wanting Luck.

trading Peyton was never really an option. and the Colts wanted to show some class and let him choose where he would finish his career after everything he gave them.

Re: Non-Colts thread

I like Luck and don't doubt that he will be a great quarterback. But 3-4 years is a long time, and the sports world revolves around the present. If Manning carved Pitt up after not playing a real game since January 2011, then just imagine how badly he will be slaughtering teams mid-season. Manning owns those big prime time moments like last night, and I wish he was still doing them in Indy, the only place he should have ever played.

Blame Polian. He built the house of cards that made Manning's playoff chances lower than they should've been, and the team's ability to play without him weak. ...and then never addressed any of that as Manning's career headed into its final seasons.

Thanks to Polian and the realities of the NFL Irsay had little choice but to do what he did.

Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

------

"A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

Re: Non-Colts thread

Thanks to Polian and the realities of the NFL Irsay had little choice but to do what he did.

I agree 100% that Polian did a pretty lousy job from 2007 onward.

However, I do disagree that Irsay had "little choice" but to do what he did. He could have kept Manning and traded the Luck pick for a massive haul of assets that could have fixed the holes in this team. I'm not debating whether it would have been the right move or not, but it could have been done. Everyone acts like that renewing Manning's contract would have been armageddon for the Colts franchise, yet we were told by Irsay himself that it was a friendly deal when Manning initially signed it in July 2011.

The main reason we only won 2 games last year was because we had a rotation of QB's who did not belong in the NFL. Having an average NFL quarterback (or maybe playing Dan O more) would have left us with about 5 wins on the season instead of 2. We competed hard early on before the losing began to take a serious mental toll. Polian's biggest fault was completely neglecting the backup QB position and just assuming that Manning would always be around, but that's understandable to an extent given that Manning was an iron man.

I like Luck and think that the future will be bright with him. I can certainly sympathize with Irsay in that he had a very tough decision. But I just don't buy all this talk that the Colts could never have won another SB with Manning had he returned here. We could have sold the number 1 pick for a king's ransom and immediately drafted players who would have filled voids. Manning alone is worth 10 wins in a down year (2010) and 12-14 when he is at the top of his game. Anything can happen once you get into the playoffs, and the AFC isn't as strong as it used to be. How good was that 2009 team that went to the Super Bowl? It certainly wasn't near as talented as the 06 team that won it all, but Manning was so great that he carried us all season. He could have done that again. We would have had a *chance* to win it all again with Manning regardless of the pieces around him. If Manning stays healthy all year and continues to play like he did against Pitt, then any team with Manning has a chance.

The Following User Says Thank You to Sollozzo For This Useful Post:

Re: Non-Colts thread

Just because there were technically other choices, doesn't mean he had nothing but "little choice". Sure keeping Manning was technically an option, it was a choice, but it was not the correct choice for long-term success, on a number of fronts. It was the correct choice for short-term success.

The short-term call is also the easiest... the easiest to execute, the easiest to sell to fans; it's just easier.

Irsay, like Donnie Walsh did when he drafted Reggie over Steve Alford, made the tough call. Knowing it wouldn't be an easy sell, he pulled it anyway, because he knew in the long run it was the correct path.

It doesn't feel like the correct path to emotional over-reacting fans who want to jump off a cliff after one game. I was talking people off the cliff after Manning's first game, too, lol... but I felt back then Manning was the correct choice, we just had to be patient and let him grow. The number of threads started after game 1 saying we should've drafted Ryan Leaf was staggering.... and ultimately assinine as we all know.

Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 09-11-2012 at 10:54 AM.

There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

Re: Non-Colts thread

One of the things I admire of Irsay and I don't like about Simon is that Irsay knows when to say goodbye and in Simon's case(Pacers case) they love to keep players until their wheels fall off, you have to admire an owner that makes those tough decisions, not only they did it with Peyton but they have done it to a bunch of players and fans favorites too.

Re: Non-Colts thread

However, I do disagree that Irsay had "little choice" but to do what he did. He could have kept Manning and traded the Luck pick for a massive haul of assets that could have fixed the holes in this team. I'm not debating whether it would have been the right move or not, but it could have been done. Everyone acts like that renewing Manning's contract would have been armageddon for the Colts franchise, yet we were told by Irsay himself that it was a friendly deal when Manning initially signed it in July 2011.

The main reason we only won 2 games last year was because we had a rotation of QB's who did not belong in the NFL. Having an average NFL quarterback (or maybe playing Dan O more) would have left us with about 5 wins on the season instead of 2. We competed hard early on before the losing began to take a serious mental toll. Polian's biggest fault was completely neglecting the backup QB position and just assuming that Manning would always be around, but that's understandable to an extent given that Manning was an iron man.

I like Luck and think that the future will be bright with him. I can certainly sympathize with Irsay in that he had a very tough decision. But I just don't buy all this talk that the Colts could never have won another SB with Manning had he returned here. We could have sold the number 1 pick for a king's ransom and immediately drafted players who would have filled voids. Manning alone is worth 10 wins in a down year (2010) and 12-14 when he is at the top of his game. Anything can happen once you get into the playoffs, and the AFC isn't as strong as it used to be. How good was that 2009 team that went to the Super Bowl? It certainly wasn't near as talented as the 06 team that won it all, but Manning was so great that he carried us all season. He could have done that again. We would have had a *chance* to win it all again with Manning regardless of the pieces around him. If Manning stays healthy all year and continues to play like he did against Pitt, then any team with Manning has a chance.

But that's the other piece of the puzzle... Manning staying healthy is a gamble. Manning's age complicated things.

A true contender should be able to tread water and manage to hover around 500 without their starting QB. The team did have some leads last season and the defense failed to hold those leads. Irsay couldn't ignore that either.

There was never going to be a bright short term answer that didn't have negative long term implications. The only thing I can blame Irsay for is trusting Polian for too long. I'm convinced Manning would've still been the Colts QB if this team would've had proper management for the final half of Manning's career.

Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

------

"A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

Re: Non-Colts thread

One of the things I admire of Irsay and I don't like about Simon is that Irsay knows when to say goodbye and in Simon's case(Pacers case) they love to keep players until their wheels fall off, you have to admire an owner that makes those tough decisions, not only they did it with Peyton but they have done it to a bunch of players and fans favorites too.

We obviously kept Reggie forever, as we should have, but what other players have we kept until their wheels fell off? Smits retired after just 12 seasons. Dale and Antonio were traded when they each had quite a few years left. Mark Jackson was traded when he had a few years left. Jermaine and Rose were traded when they were still young.

Re: Non-Colts thread

We obviously kept Reggie forever, as we should have, but what other players have we kept until their wheels fell off? Smits retired after just 12 seasons. Dale and Antonio were traded when they each had quite a few years left. Mark Jackson was traded when he had a few years left. Jermaine and Rose were traded when they were still young.

Sorry for turning this into a Pacers discussion.

By wheels falling off I mean until the players lose their value and you have not choice but keep them.