Holographic universe

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Big Bad Voodoo 1,340

Maybe this thread needs to be placed in science but since I want to ask spiritual and ET questions I decide its best to put it into Modern Mysteries.

I read once that researchers doing tests about quantum connection between person and person spitt. That they are not toghether but somehow connected. That man spits in one room and enter in another and then scientists start to puting burned ciggarets in mens spit and that they observed reaction in human who was in another room. It was long time ago and I read it in one as I remember wierd Internet site.

I remember backthen how immidietly Voodoo practice cross my mind. How those Voodoo magicans need hair or nails to curse you. How they put needles in doll with your hair and nails so you become suffering pain.

Recently I start questioning could it be connected somehow, if true, with Holographic universe. Idea that universe is holographic dont mean that our Sun is 2D but that all universe including us is 2D. That we are projection. If we are projection then by whom? By God? By us? By ET?

In the early 1990's, University of Florida physicist Charles Thorn conceived the holographic universe hypothesis. In Thorn's view of the Universe, the 3-dimensional world we know and love is actually a hologram projected from the furthest-most reaches of the cosmos. The easiest way to imagine it is that we are contained within the Universe's event horizon and any 3D object we conceive (as 3D objects ourselves) are projected from the event horizon's 2-dimensional "shell." We are basically a projection.

The idea that information is encoded in an event horizon comes from the "black hole paradox," a fascinating debate between heavyweight physicists Kip Thorne, Stephen Hawking and John Preskill:

Information encoded in an event horizon "is born from other well known interpretations of the cosmos, in particularly the black hole paradox. As something falls into a black hole, passing the event horizon, the quantum information held in the event horizon can be encoded to reveal information about the interior. Therefore, the information inside the black hole’s event horizon is not destroyed (for details on this, see the Thorne-Hawking-Preskill bet). If the information about the interior of a black hole is encoded in its event horizon, scientists have come forward to point out that perhaps the information inside our Universe is encoded in the Universe's horizon." -- Astroengine, Jan. 20, 2009

motivated by the odd noise being generated by GEO600 and Thorn's holographic universe idea, Craig Hogan is currently building a souped-up gravitational wave detector with a difference: it's not looking for gravitational waves.

If the Universe is a holographic projection from the universal event horizon, it is predicted that the projection will be fuzzy. Although all the information to create the Universe is "encoded" in Planck-scale "bits" in the universal event horizon, by the time it's projected over billions of light years to our location, these "bits" will have become enlarged -- like the light being emitted from a projector onto a wall.

The smaller scales you probe, the more fuzzy the projection becomes. It's a bit like zooming in on a photograph or magazine text; it becomes less defined and more pixelated the closer you zoom in.

It is this fuzziness that Hogan believes GEO600 is currently seeing as noise, possibly giving Thorn's hypothesis from the early 90's some of its first observational evidence.

So, at Fermilab, Hogan's team has devised a holographic interferometer (or "Holometer," pictured above) that is currently being built to probe even smaller scales than GEO600:

"The holometer attempts a direct experimental test of one form of [the holographic universe] hypothesis. In a Michelson interferometer, a light beam is split into two parts that travel in different directions, then are brought back together. The vibrations of light in the two directions tend to drift apart by about Planck length per Planck time when they are traveling in different directions. When they are recombined, the difference in light phase can be measured. In the holometer, signals from two different interferometers -- that is, two completely separate systems, each with its own pair of beam arms -- are compared. If they are close enough to probe the same volume of spacetime -- that is, if light in both systems is traveling in about the same direction, at about the same time -- their signals should display the same, correlated jitter, sometimes called 'holographic noise.'" -- The Fermilab Holometer website.

What will the Holometer find? Hogan is hoping to see more static, or "jitter."

But what does this mean?

It is doubtful that the human brain could ever fully imagine how a universe is actually a 3-dimensional representation of a 2-dimensional universal event horizon, and it doesn't physically change how we experience our world. Even if this space-time noise is found to persist at smaller and smaller scales, it's not necessarily evidence that the holographic concept is real. Perhaps it's a phenomenon that mathematics or the most advanced physics theory cannot explain (yet).

But it's one hell of a mind-bending idea that will no doubt boost our understanding about how our Universe works on the tiniest of scales.

First I will like that you say your thoughts about possibilty of holographic universe. Then what will that mean if we are all 2D in term of physics, spirituality, ET hypothesis, math?

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sepulchrave 707

You asked for my opinion on this... honestly I am quite a bit out of my depth here.

I think one should be cautious about attaching the Holographic principle to everyday objects. The basic principle only works (I think) when applied to ``topologically natural boundaries'', which usually mean light-cones or event horizons, or the like. The principle states that all the information necessary to interact with one of these holographic bodies must be encoded on the surface.

This does suggest that the essence of everything is 2D, but I don't think it precludes the existence of 3D - we need 3D space to have 2D surfaces. I think the holographic principle reduces things to ``bubbles'' - i.e. anything important about the contents of a bubble needs to be projected on the surface, so one could equally validly treat the surface of the bubble as the real thing and say it contained nothing.

But, on the other hand, you (or I) are obviously not topologically natural objects, our boundaries are not related to space-time curvature. And on a more fundamental level, electrons in a crystal (silicon, copper, etc.) are defined by 5 quantities: the energy (or band index), three components of crystal momentum, and their spin. You can't project a 3D crystal momentum onto a 2D surface without losing information - and yet the information about electrons in a crystal lattice is readily available by a number of experimental techniques.

I suppose one could argue that the subatomic particles (electrons, quarks, etc.) that make up macroscopic objects are the 2D bubbles, but there isn't much gained by that in my opinion.

I worry that the Holographic principle comes from an attempt to resolve contradictions between the interactions of quantum objects in classical fields - in particular classical fields that are plausibly near a quantum limit (like an event horizon could conceivably be) - when a better approach might be to properly quantize the fields first (of course there hasn't been any success with that yet).

I admit that I am fairly biased in this sort of discussion. I am an experimental physicist, and in particular I study condensed matter and materials. In my opinion, lots of theorists provide lofty philosophies that are based on large, weakly interacting systems (like black holes treated as a single object floating in interstellar space) or very small, discretely interacting systems (like subatomic particles colliding once or twice in an accelerator).

In my opinion, theorists rarely talk about the ramifications of the theories they construct in those settings on real life, i.e. millions of continually, and strongly interacting particles (like electrons in a solid). A black hole in space, or a relativistic particle in an accelerator can have definite surfaces (light cones, event horizons, whatever) - that exist on all length scales. But the surface of an object is very dependent on the scale you are measuring.

In terms of the holographic principle, what is the surface of your body? It probably looks pretty clear to you right now, but if you studied your skin at a micron scale it would look a lot more like a sponge, and on a nanometre scale not only would it be full of holes, you'd have a hard time telling what part was your skin and what part was the atmosphere around you.

The difference between volume and surface is pretty clear-cut for a perfect sphere. What is the difference in a fractal?

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Big Bad Voodoo 1,340

Obviously we humans are quite primitive, I suspect, and ignorant of more things than we can imagine.

Idea that Im projection is scary. But what scare me the most is that some people are affraid to think about it. In fact people are affraid to think like they will get brain tumor from thinking.

But as Einstein said : Small is the number of people who think with their heads and see with their eyes. People will often took others people opinion then question them. Defenition of scepticism is that we question everything. And as I read here on UM recently. Now true sceptics are called conspiracy theorist and sceptics become square people who are scared in essence of their being to think. Todays sceptics like their utopia. Utopia that they know all.

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Big Bad Voodoo 1,340

Thanks on post and I wanted to hear your thoughts on it even you are not experimental physicist. Neither m I.

I must say Im having problem to understand all you wrote even I know you try from bottom of your heart to explain me well.

And thats isnt about you or language barrier , my bad English. Your knowledge on phsyics is too sophisticated to me.

But Im willing to learn and Im fast learner. I start to thinking to open one thread about Physics where we will have mentor, teacher on one side and others mortals on others side. We will see. I have few mysteries in Physics that are like fary tale the Emperor is naked. Sometime we need naive child view to spot something I guess.

I picked up some things from your post.

What you trying to tell when you said that we cant project 3D crystal momentum on 2D surface without loosing info and that experiments shows info about electrons in crystal lattice? I think I didnt conclude well...

In terms of the holographic principle, what is the surface of your body? It probably looks pretty clear to you right now, but if you studied your skin at a micron scale it would look a lot more like a sponge, and on a nanometre scale not only would it be full of holes, you'd have a hard time telling what part was your skin and what part was the atmosphere around you.

The difference between volume and surface is pretty clear-cut for a perfect sphere. What is the difference in a fractal?

Yes but because my skin look different from microscope doesnt change thing.(?) Im what Im. Only I see it because my eyes dont allow me to see sponge skin. Why wouldnt my sponge skin be also projection?

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Big Bad Voodoo 1,340

I always consider humans as star kids. Childern of universe. We are carbon based being and carbon is produced in stars. I even link philosophy to it. That we are universe rediscovering it self. That in every one of us is small part of universe. We gain expiriences trough our life and in in end we connect. I know that many myzanthropes wouldnt agree with idea that we will become one as we were once one. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust- could it be that is point? That this is just trip? Journey, Voyage. Dream. There is no death or birth. We are illusions. Im mean in sense we are. We are made of atoms and they are made from nothing. Downthere , there is no particles only links...bonds...

Sepul can you explain me so that I could even understand Double-slit experiment. I read it twice and dont get it.

The author of the book "Holographic Universe" is Michael Talbot. Not a terrible read. He goes off on tangents here and there and gets "new-agey" and "psuedo-sciency" from time to time but many of his sources are well known and established Doctors and scientists. I enjoyed the book for what it's worth.

The discussions about the implicate and the explicate is pretty fascinating. It's hard to explain it to someone who hasn't read the theory so I won't do it the injustice of trying to describe it. It's worth the 10 bucks or whatever it was when I bought it. Just bear in mind he does go off a cliff here and there in anecdotal conversation. However, if you research the scientists and doctors he quotes and illustrates...you won't be disappointed.

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Rlyeh 9,924

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Big Bad Voodoo 1,340

The author of the book "Holographic Universe" is Michael Talbot. Not a terrible read. He goes off on tangents here and there and gets "new-agey" and "psuedo-sciency" from time to time but many of his sources are well known and established Doctors and scientists. I enjoyed the book for what it's worth.

The discussions about the implicate and the explicate is pretty fascinating. It's hard to explain it to someone who hasn't read the theory so I won't do it the injustice of trying to describe it. It's worth the 10 bucks or whatever it was when I bought it. Just bear in mind he does go off a cliff here and there in anecdotal conversation. However, if you research the scientists and doctors he quotes and illustrates...you won't be disappointed.

StarMountainKid 7,260

The maximum amount of information in a region of space is proportional to the area of the region.

From what I understand, according to Leonard Susskind, a black hole's 2D event horizon contains all the information within the black hole encoded just like the 2D surface of a hologram. The black hole event horizon is a scrambled hologram of everything inside.The number of bits of information is equal to the area of the horizon measured in Planck units.

Beyond the black hole event horizon all information is unavailable. It would be the same situation for us in the universe. Our event horizon is that region of space that has expanded beyond our view. All information contained beyond our spacial event horizon is unavailable to us, so the area of our spacial event horizon should contain all information within that volume encoded like the 2D surface of a black hole's horizon.

The universe itself, or the mufti-verse would have an event horizon surrounding it, wouldn't it? Wouldn't this ultimate horizon contain all the information contained in that volume encoded on its 2D surface?

I find thinking about black holes and perception interesting. At an event horizon space is accelerating faster than the speed of light. Our own space has a place that is accelerating faster than the speed of light relative to us. If you could sit at an event horizon and look out, you would see the universe speed up. Indeed, the universe would speed up so fast at some point that you would see all of the future pass before your very eyes. Then, if there was a big crunch, you would see the entire universe collapse upon you. If it expanded forever, you would see everything go dark to an impenetrable void, until quantum fluctuations created another big bang or you leaked out in hawking radiation.

I find it highly likely that our universe is setting inside of a singularity and spawning others. We already know it started with one, Mabey it never really expanded after all. Mabey it's just a perception issue brought on by something like tidal forces.

I don't say so. Its demonstrable garbage. Beards emitting electromagnetic energy and being "channels to the brain"? Whoever wrote that needs to lay off the smokes. Hippie dribble. And it goes back to the Kirilian photography thing which is a well understood process and nothing to do with wiffley waffley new age energy.

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sepulchrave 707

What you trying to tell when you said that we cant project 3D crystal momentum on 2D surface without loosing info and that experiments shows info about electrons in crystal lattice? I think I didnt conclude well...

I was trying to break down some of the issues I have with the Holographic Universe idea in terms of simple physical systems.

So consider a perfect diamond: I think we can all agree it has a well-defined surface. Is all of the information about the diamond contained on the surface? Certainly the surface helps define the diamond (mathematically, it is obviously provides the ``boundary conditions''). But from an experimental perspective there is more to it. I can probe the behaviour of electrons inside the diamond, and I will find that distinct electronic states are partially defined by three components of crystal momentum; because the electronic states are in 3D space. If one of those components turned out to be random, or defined entirely by the other two, then the information of each electronic state could be contained - somehow - on the 2D surface of the diamond. But in general all three components are independent: choose any three arbitrary values for these components and you will be able to find some electronic state with that momentum.

In a non-magnetic system (like diamond) each electronic state has 4 components: three components of crystal momentum (usually denoted as kx, ky, kz) and an energy (usually denoted E). However you only need to know three of these numbers to determine the 4th. In other words, you can arbitrarily choose any values for kx, ky, kz and expect to find an electronic state with a particular energy E (or possibly a few states with different energies). You can't arbitrarily choose any value for all four components and expect an electronic state to exist.

This makes sense if you consider that a free parameter is the same as a dimension, and the diamond is ``really'' in 3D space. If the diamond were ``really'' just a 2D surface, then you would expect only two of kx, ky, kz, and E to be arbitrary.

Why wouldnt my sponge skin be also projection?

Could we all be like Star Trek Hologram?

My argument here is just ``what is the surface a macroscopic object (like a person) is projected on''? A black hole has a very distinct surface (the event horizon). A human being does not. What is the difference between the 2D surface of an incredibly fine sponge and an actual 3D object?

Seupul about your fraction link...isnt that search to grasp infinty?

Not really, I was just trying to address what I mention above in a different manner. On a molecular level, your body is a sponge; it is full of holes. On an atomic level, a molecule is mostly empty. On a subatomic particle level, an atom is mostly empty. But for your body to be a projection, it needs to have a surface - where is this surface?

You could argue that each subatomic particle is itself a 2D projection, and we are just composed of these projections, but in the Standard Model a subatomic particle (electron, quark, etc.) is a ``true point particle'', i.e. a 0D object. Elevating this object to 2D is... unnecessary.

Sepul can you explain me so that I could even understand Double-slit experiment. I read it twice and dont get it.

A bit off topic, but I will try.

A wave is a periodic travelling fluctuation of something. A water wave is a good example: a periodic travelling fluctuation of the surface of a body of water. All waves have parts that are higher than average (i.e. the crests of water waves), parts that are lower than average (i.e. the troughs of water waves), and parts that are exactly average (called nodes).

Two waves can pass through each other. When they do, they create interference. This interference can be constructive when two crests or two troughs meet in the same place and make the thing (i.e. the surface of the water, the electromagnetic field, etc.) at that location higher than it would be from only one wave alone, or the interference can be destructive when a crest meets a trough and the two (partially) cancel each other out.

If the two waves are coherent, that is they have the same frequency, then the interference pattern is constant. You can easily see this in a

(here they have two small paddles going up an down in synch to create the waves); note in the video there are straight lines where the water is basically flat; these are locations of destructive interference.

The double slit is just a technique for making light waves coherent. How can you tell if two lamps, lasers, or whatever are emitting light in synch? Basically you can't, so the trick is to take one lamp or laser and shine the light through two small slits. Each slit is effectively acting as a ``source'' of light, so you end up with two ``sources'' radiating light in synch, and the light waves can create constructive and destructive interference, just like the water in the ripple tank video mentioned above.

So IF light is a wave, then you should see an interference pattern on the other side of a double slit. (And you do! And you can do it yourself at home with a few easy-to-obtain items, see

. Note: the author of the video seems confused about what he calls ``single slit interference''; what he actually sees is called Fraunhofer diffraction - not interference.)

BUT, as quantum mechanics rather conclusively has shown, light comes in discrete packets called ``photons''. What happens if we use a very precise light source that only sends one photon at a time through the slits? (Unfortunately, this is NOT an experiment you can easily do at home.) Well, when they do that experiment the interference pattern still shows up! So clearly each photon is acting as a ``little wave'' and going through both slits at once, then interfering with itself on the other side. No problems so far!

BUT a photon is supposed to be an indivisible packet of energy, so what if we put energy detectors on each slit? Will we detect a ``half photon'' going through each slit?

The answer is NO. We only detect one photon going through a particular slit (and zero photons going through the other slit) at any given time. And suddenly, when we use this detector, the interference pattern vanishes! The photons are no longer acting like waves.

This is often described as ``observation changes reality'', which appears to be true (in many cases, not just the double slit).

However people often make the false assumption that ``observation'' implies ``a human mind'' or an otherwise ``conscious observer''. It is the detector that is doing the ``observation'', not the scientist. If the scientist turned the detector on, but put some tape over the detector display so he/she couldn't see which slit the photon went through, the interference pattern would still be gone. Unfortunately there is a lot of pseudo-scientific nonsense on the internet (not in the least from those ``Doc Quantum'' videos on Youtube) that perpetuate this concept.

The double-slit experiment is an example of wave-particle duality, a still-somewhat-unresolved branch of the philosophy of quantum mechanics, on which I can give more details if you want.

But in a nutshell, the double-slit experiment is as follows:

When a single photon is sent towards a double slit without a detector to measure the photon at the slit, the photon behaves as a wave after passing through the slit.

When a single photon is sent towards a double slit with a detector measuring the photon at the slit, the photon behaves as a particle[/i] after passing through the slit.

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Jeremiah65 3,062

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"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." Aristotle

Stanislov Grof had some fascinating discoveries in altered states of consciousness that Talbot's book only touches on. I seriously suggest reading about him if you don't want to fork out the 10 to 15 bucks to buy Talbot's book.

There was also another theory briefly touched on and the ramifications are ..well...awesome.

They took mice and rats and systematically removed part of their brains...trying to find where memory is stored. The removed more than what should allow for function and yet the rats functioned. A hypothesis was generated that said perhaps...our brains do not store memories...perhaps the memories are stored "somewhere else" and our brains are just processing devices picking up on electrically stored data. This would explain DejaVu and "ghost" phenomena. That is a poorly worded description....read up on it...fascinating shiz.

The implicate and the explicate...I am going to (poorly) try to describe this. The implicate is all the reality and physics you know. Imagine a vast ocean. A drop of water splashes up from it...this droplet is the implicate...it is the world we know...all the physics, mechanics, mathematics...etc. The "ocean" is the explicate...it is all that is real that we have not explored, observed and or categorized. It is possible through the explicate to create totally different laws of physics that absolutely do not apply to the understanding we now have.

OK...that was a horrible explanation but I didn't want to take 15 posts to the max to describe it.

The holographic universe is not as the title would seem...it is not about a false matrix of reality...it is about data and information....how if you take a holographic slide and slice it into pieces...each piece still contains enough data to produce the image...I know...hard to grasp...but do not let the title confuse you...we are not talking about Neo and the Matrix when we talk about the Holographic Universe.

Edited October 22, 2012 by Jeremiah65

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Big Bad Voodoo 1,340

They took mice and rats and systematically removed part of their brains...trying to find where memory is stored. The removed more than what should allow for function and yet the rats functioned. A hypothesis was generated that said perhaps...our brains do not store memories...perhaps the memories are stored "somewhere else" and our brains are just processing devices picking up on electrically stored data.

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Big Bad Voodoo 1,340

All I can say on your post that I need more reading and learning in order to discuss with you. You are way out of my leauge in Physics debate.

But Im fast learner. Im sure we will soon discuss about Physics. When Planck talked about Quantum people didnt know was he mad. Now physicists mentioned that in quantum world we have chance to walk trough walls. In fact we have chance to walk trough wall in macro world just chance is very poor.

Quantum theorists now spoke how we are in the same time here and in parallel univerese. And that we are now sitting in front of our computers as young L and old L in the same time. Young and old Sepul.

What stuns me the most is that we have one universe yet we have two theories. Now thats ...redicule.

...

So according to you do this theory/hypothesis have future? I believe not just want to clarify.

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Mr Right Wing 576

Maybe this thread needs to be placed in science but since I want to ask spiritual and ET questions I decide its best to put it into Modern Mysteries.

I read once that researchers doing tests about quantum connection between person and person spitt. That they are not toghether but somehow connected. That man spits in one room and enter in another and then scientists start to puting burned ciggarets in mens spit and that they observed reaction in human who was in another room. It was long time ago and I read it in one as I remember wierd Internet site.

When people think of the occult they imagine weirdos on the internet who think that they're witches or vampires. In reality the occult is medieval science.

Back in the Middle Ages religion, science and philosophy were not seperate subjects. They were unified together and this is what the occult is. Because the boffins back then included religion and all those areas of philosophy which we've swept under the carpet in favour of material reductionism they had radically different ideas about how things worked.

They believed that two objects that have been in contact with each other retain a link even after they are seperated. In the Occult this is called the Law of Contact - http://psiknowledge....d.com/id29.html. In todays world the occult still exists and is found in the development of Quantum Mechanics. When it comes to atoms and other microscopic objects the Law of Contact has been demonstrated but they call the mechanism Quantum Entanglement - http://simple.wikipe...um_entanglement.

Anyway the reasons why your ancient ancestors believed in witchcraft and voodoo is based on the above links. They were conducting what today we call quantum teleportation between atoms but they believed it worked on people.

Imagine an object behaving as a probability -

1. If you receive no information on it then it remains behaving as a probability.

2. If you acquire information on it then it ruins the probability.

Easy yeah? So lets link two objects with one single probability (To do this a quality or property about them must be identical to each other).

1. If you receive no information on either of them then both remain behaving as a probability.

2. If you receive information on one of them you destroy the probability for both. The outcome of the probability for the measured object transfers to the one you didnt measure.

People overlook how probabilities work because at school you get taught that its just a bit of maths. Its only during a physics degree you get corrected as to the mechanisms built into reality such as probabilities. I have a few debates off my own on these forums saying that an object in a different room or far away location should be sufficently isolated as to induce quantum behaviour.

Quantum behaviour just means no information leakage to you so the object is definately, definately behaving as a probability.