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Originally posted by TWTCommish Suffice to say, I have a somewhat brighter outlook on things.

You said:
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If you've read books like 'This perfect day' and '1984' you'll know what I mean. If you had a perfect looking county, with a happy population and nobody is ill and nobody dies of cancer and accidents or looks even ugly. You can get what you what and nobody complains... The dream of everyone, right?

Just imagine that you had a population like you read about in the bible: a happy population of only 'true' Christians. This would collapse some day . There are no certainties in life: no system is stable, every atom will fall apart some day and after the last atom has fallen apart, the universe will be an empty space, without any form of life.

Reply:
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Absolutely right...but that definetly needed clarification. We are sinful creatures and therefore perfection will never be reached without God and Heaven...a world full of Christians may not have the problems we have today...but they would definetly have problems of their own to deal with.

You Said:
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Ok, so this guy Jesus died, stood up again and then?

First some sitenotes:
Jesus wasn't born out of a maiden, he was one of the many children of a common family.
Most of those 'fairy-tales' about the life of Jesus are not true, they can easily be proven to be wrong with other sources.

Reply:
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I find it amazingly hard to believe that you can prove Jesus was a normally born child. You're entitled to your opinion, but I don't see how there is any reliable "source" that can reasonably prove that Jesus was not who we Christians say he is.

You Said:
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"Right after the first lifesigns of Christianity it seems like this religion is dying at a slow pace. Only the thought of being a totally convinced Christian make me shiver.
Christianity is like every average sect, it's only much bigger and older."

Reply:
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Well, then it's not like every sect, is it? I personally don't see Christianity dying; don't know why you seem to think so. Even if it were, I'm un-fazed by it.

I also find it WAY out there that monogomy will kill us all. You said more and more will be born disabled...however I don't see you explaining WHY this will happen. Strong people will be born as well...there will always be a mix.
Percentage-wise I don't see why everything would change.

I didn't make the story about Monogamy up by myself, it's something that has been numerous times in Scientific Magazines I read. It's logical, since the best genes can't spread enough while we even allow people with a serious gendefect to get children... This is Madness! Ok, at first we'll notice not much difference, but once the 'good' genes are getting more and more rare, the health of the Human population will drop at an amazing speed.

But don't worry: you won't notice it. You'll be dead and your thoughts will be gone forever.

Beneath I've written down some questions were no Christian seems to be able to give a rational answer on. I'd also like to get some proof next time someone talks about it.

Does such a thing like a 'Heaven' or a 'God' exist? Is our life being regulated by supernatural beings? Has a supernatural being created our earth and the creatures on it? Why should we believe anything in the bible? Why hasn't 'God' talked to any of us Humans in the last 1000 years? What's the use of Christianity?

I'll add more questions later, if I can find some more time to waste...

Elledan... I think what you're saying isn't very intelligent. It's also creepy and 'Hitler-like'. Remember he also wanted to have a superiour race? What are good genes and what are bad? Everyone has his own strength. You should always keep that in mind!

Originally posted by freesources Elledan... I think what you're saying isn't very intelligent. It's also creepy and 'Hitler-like'. Remember he also wanted to have a superiour race? What are good genes and what are bad? Everyone has his own strength. You should always keep that in mind!

Christophe

Hitler was one of the most disgusting people out of history. This 'man' never had a right to live IMHO (yes, he did have a bad youth)

Hitler wanted to create a superior race, but his one was only based on appearence, not on the genes they carried with them. This kind of 'superior race' would have died within a century due to inbreeding.

What I try to explain is that we should choose for the scientific approach of reproducing and not follow our hearts for once.

'Good' genes are genes that doesn't cause genetic defects, serious illnesses, like people who slowly are getting blind due to an illnes that causes the retina of both eyes to get slowly thinner. Stephen King is one of those unfortunate people. His eyesight is at this very moment 'bad'. He's forced to wear huge glasses to see sharp and he expects to be blind within a short time.

I think that it would be a magnificient thing if we could avoid illnesses like this, since it's one of the things that we're trying to achieve for so long, without real success.

If we really want to, we can make the Human race prosper like never before. This time without war...

Does such a thing like a 'Heaven' or a 'God' exist?
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Uh, yes. You really couldn't find a Christian who could answer that?

Is our life being regulated by supernatural beings?
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Depends on what you mean by regulated...monitored, for sure.

Has a supernatural being created our earth and the creatures on it?
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Yup.

Why should we believe anything in the bible?
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Because I feel it is more logical than any other choice. For me its pretty obvious that some type of God exists...and to me, Jesus seems to be the one. It's a decision we all have to make.

Why hasn't 'God' talked to any of us Humans in the last 1000 years?
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He has to some degree...but I'm assuming that you mean directly. I don't totally have an answer for this one. My opinion on things is that Faith is part of believing...I can readily admit, however, than I don't have a solid answer for this question. And no, I don't think that makes me illogical.

What's the use of Christianity?
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Uh, I think I speak for everyone when I say...WHAT?

It's not supposed to be useful to everyone...Christianity is a lifestyle for people who believe in Jesus Christ.

"What I try to explain is that we should choose for the scientific approach of reproducing and not follow our hearts for once."

I hope you're not actually suggesting that we setup a system to make healthy people mate with other healthy people, and deny less-healthy people the right to have children. Thats cruel...not worth living if we have to live in a world like that.

"If we really want to, we can make the Human race prosper like never before. This time without war..."

Are you kidding me? It would take a lot of war to get people to (and I say this tongue-in-cheeck), "agree" to such a radical system...war will ALWAYS exist.

Oh boy, what a thread. This one looks more heated then the "Creation vs Evolution" thread I had started.

Before I say anything, I will say that I am Christian but DON'T believe everything that previous Christians said in this thread.

I don't think there is an ABSOLUTE RIGHT or an ABSOLUTE WRONG. People define many things in the bible differently (it was made so that people can understand it in their own way) and I don't think anything is set in stone. We all have the basic knowledge of what is right or wrong anyway. We all know it is wrong to kill, steal, rape, have an affair, and many other "Common Knowledge" wrongs. I bet everyone that has posted in this thread would agree that most of those things are wrong.

I also think that EVERYONE is equal and is looked at as equals by God as well. Christians are no better then athiest, the rich is no better then the poor, etc, etc......You never read anything about how athiests are in a lower-class then christians, in the bible.

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Elledan
You can't convince a 'true' Christian. They'll always come with the most complicated questions and answers and will make your 'task' hopeless

There's no way to prove that there is something like a supernatural being ('God'). There is no way to prove that it isn't there either. This powerful guy will have to come here to prove its (supernatural beings have no gender, that's only something with 'lower' beings) existence.

There can impossible be one 'God' since there are so many (different) religions on this planet or this 'God' must like it to see 'its' creatures destroy eachother since they're unable to convince each other on a gentle way (remember those peace talks who happen so reguarly? The chance that one succeeds is smaller than that you win the lottery)

The universe is shaped out of Chaos. We Humans are shaped of the same chaos. Therefore, it's impossible for us Humans to do everything right.

Good and Evil don't exist. The only things that exist are evenings, things that happen. We are the ones that say that something is good or bad, but this depends on which side you are: what your believe in this world is. There's no Universal Code to define Good and Evil.

Perfection is a curse.

War is insane, but us Humans are insane enough to use it.

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I could say the exact samething about athiests: You can't convince a 'true' Athiest, because they'll always come up with some "natural" way about why something is the way it is. They can't accept the fact that something "divine" could be watching EVERYTHING that they do.

I always like it how people will say "I am not going to believe in a God unless he shows himself." Hmmmm....it seems to me like you are afraid to think that there maybe a god out there. If you always have to see something to believe it, then why do you have faith? Everyone has some sort of faith, in one way or the other. You can't see faith, and yet you believe in it.

I am not so sure if I agree with you in that it is impossible that there can be only one God. Like I said earlier, accepting the fact that there might be ONE god out there, can be a hard thing to believe for a lot of people. Also, we brought our own desctruction upon ourselves. God isn't just watching us destroy ourselves either....that is why he brought the Bible onto the earth, so that we have a chance for salvation. Our life is a difficult test and only the people who have faith in God, will pass.

Hmmm....you just explained how it is impossible that there could be only one God. But why would it be more possible for an uncontrollable "force" (or whatever you want to call chaos) to create everthing and have it become like it is today. Last time I checked, no one has witnessed chaos do anything for the human race in all of history, or anything for that matter.

If you want to believe that us humans choose what is "good" and what is "bad", then that is your decision. I must warn you though that you may regret believing that later on, after you die. I also can say the same thing about Christians too, though. They may regret their decisions, whatever they maybe, when they die. (I am in no way trying to say that my religion is better then yours, or put down my own faith....I am just trying to get you to really think about yours, no matter what it is)

Explain to me why perfection is a curse? I don't know anyone in particular who has ever experience perfection, to be able to call it a curse. It seems to me like perfection would be a pretty good characteristic, don't you think?

War is part of the curse god put upon us. We are just lucky that we don't have to go through what Jesus Christ went through (with the crucifixion and humiliation and all).

----------------------------------
LuZeR
I agree temis. I've always wondered why some people try so hard to supress nature. You _can't_ beat nature, you can do your best to try but you will never be 100% succesful.
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I agree with a lot of what you said. NOBODY can defeat human nature 100%. But, I do believe that we all have the will power inside of us to supress most of our human nature. Everyone that was born and is born, has human nature inside of them. Human nature was given to us from God, because we disobeyed him. However, I do think there will be a reward greater then anything that we can imagine, for those individuals who believe that there is a God and that he does exist.

It states perfectly clear in the bible, that it is not wrong to fight for your country or to defend yourself, even if it means killing another person. If God didn't believe in that, then he would be asking people to kill themselves, because like I said before in other threads, it is human nature to fight. Now if you kill for other reasons (besides for defense) then that is a different story.

I don't intend to get anyone mad, but I just felt that I needed to defend my faith, just like some of the other people in this thread. People are probably going to say something like "Christians always come up with lame excuses" or something. That doesn't effect me because I have learned to take that kind of criticism and make myself stronger out of it, instead of letting it get to me.

I am sad to admit that there are corrupt churches out there. But I assure you, those churches that claim to be Christians, aren't true Christians. They make me sick. I know for a fact that my church doesn't look "down" on anyone who doesn't give an offering. I think that is totally wrong to do that.

"Hmmm....you just explained how it is impossible that there could be only one God. But why would it be more possible for an uncontrollable "force" (or whatever you want to call chaos) to create everthing and have it become like it is today. Last time I checked, no one has witnessed chaos do anything for the human race in all of history, or anything for that matter." -wsresource

Humans are chaotic beings that are regulated by their environment. See the post I made about analog vs. digital artificial intelligence.

The flow of water is chaotic and is regulated by it's environment (gravity, river basins, etc).

From the interaction between chaotic elements, ie other elements within the same environment, comes regulation.

No supernatural being created the earth. It has been proven that the universe is just like some soap-bubble: it suddenly existed (the Big Bang) and it will pop apart some day. Nothing special, just some scientific stuff. The earth is therefore much older than the bible says and by the way: Does the bible ever talk about dinosaurs? Well, they existed for a few billion years... Humans exist only a few hundred thousend years AND there has been another Human race on this planet: The Neanderthal man. You're not going to deny the existence of this race, or are you?

Much of the content of the bible just sounds like nonsense to me... And besides, on the first few pages of the bible, the Snake and Womans are being discriminated. This was what made me throw the bible away the first time I read it (yes I've tried to read the bible)

Originally posted by RussellG I may have lost my faith in christianity, but not in other religions.

Like buddhism.

I want to make some sidenotes here:

Buddhism is NOT a religion. It's a way to reach full understanding of what life is all about. There's no place for a god in Buddhism and Siddharta (Buddha) is not a god. He was just so lucky to be the founder of this teaching of life.

What I see now, is that people are looking at Buddhism as another religion which was NOT the intention of Siddharta and this makes me feel sad.

Elledan, you shouldn't actually believe what the bible says, you should look at the individual sentences that have meaning and can ummm.. 'enlighten' you (I can't think of anything to quote at the moment...)

And I didn't say I was going to be a buddhist, check the thread 'What religion are you'.

But here's a question for you: Where did all the matter and energy etc come from to fuel the big bang? Before the big bang, wasn't there... nothing? not even time? (That must mean that the big bang happened instantly).

You should read 'Chariots of the Gods' and 'Is God an Alien', by Erich von Daniken, if you haven't before. They'll give you reasons to believe that we're not the only ones out there. Raises some good arguments that earth has been visited (created?) by supernatural beings before.

Originally posted by Elledan No supernatural being created the earth. It has been proven that the universe is just like some soap-bubble: it suddenly existed (the Big Bang) and it will pop apart some day. Nothing special, just some scientific stuff. The earth is therefore much older than the bible says and by the way: Does the bible ever talk about dinosaurs? Well, they existed for a few billion years... Humans exist only a few hundred thousend years AND there has been another Human race on this planet: The Neanderthal man. You're not going to deny the existence of this race, or are you?

It has not been proven at all. Science is so full of itself...it thinks it knows so much, but we know next to NOTHING about the world around us. I recall some report just a year or so ago about some scientists claiming they had "found" that the universe has always been here and is in some sort of time nutshell - sounds a little too much like Star Trek to me.

The Bible may have talked briefly about some sort of giant lizards...I'm not sure really. Even if it didn't, so what? I don't think it ever mentioned the word "dolphins" either...doesn't mean they didn't exist. FYI: telling me dinosaurs were around for billions of years will not prove your point, because I don't think they were.

The Neanderthal Man could have been a less evolved version of us in a sense. I believe in mild evolution...as in people gradually getting taller, stronger, smarter, etc...just not the kind of evolution that allows an amoeba to evolve into a cow.

Originally posted by Elledan Much of the content of the bible just sounds like nonsense to me... And besides, on the first few pages of the bible, the Snake and Womans are being discriminated. This was what made me throw the bible away the first time I read it (yes I've tried to read the bible)

Uh, very funny...it'd only be discrimination if it were fiction. Sorry you think it sounds like nonsense - a lot of people don't.

I would also like to add that no matter what you believe, a God that has just "always been here" is no more ridiculous than any other theory...something had to just "be here"...whether its a God, more than one God, the Universe itself, or an explosion that came from nothing.

crosswire, I don't think you are screwed up. In fact, I think your theory is more believable then a lot of other theories out there. I am very curious about that point of view because I have never heard of it before.

I respect everyone's point of view in this thread and everywhere else. I do not hold grudges against any other "religion","theory" or "fact", like some of you like to call your belief, and I don't look at them any differently then I do any other belief out there. I believe it is wrong to judge anyone based on anything they do, because I know God will judge me with the same standards when I face him when I die. So I hope people aren't feeling like they are being backed up into a corner, because that is not what I am trying to do. It is not my job to tell you your belief is wrong or right, because I don't know if a lot of things are "right" or "wrong". I am pretty positive there are several paths to the same place (heaven).

I certainly don't think or say that Creation is the ONLY way the earth could have been brought up. And I definately think that there is a possibility that evolution, and the big bang could have taken place. The thing that bothers me is that some people like to turn their theory around by saying it is a "fact". I know none of these types of theories can be proven right now, and that is why it bothers me that some people think it is wrong for other people to state their beliefs, just because they think it has been SCIENTIFICALLY proven not to be true.

I know there are a lot of people out there that are totally against the bible, and I know that they will find "anything that they can, that (in their opinion) disproves or makes the bible look less of a source". I am not trying to say that it is "wrong" to not believe in the bible. I am just saying that it is wrong to discrimenate against it. Just like it is wrong for me to discreminate against another religion.

I don't think I am going to post any more replies in this thread, unless I feel like I really have to. It auviously isn't going to get anyone, anywhere.

I agree...I make one request: if you want people of other religions to respect your beliefs, then you need to respect theirs. To me, Christianity is factual...but I don't use that in my arguments...IE: "Jesus is real, that is a fact"...because no matter what you say, it can neither be proven for or against...every belief requires a LOT of faith...so I'd really appreciate it if people would make a small effort to refrain from acting as if their beliefs are fact, and believing in anything else is un-logical.

It does sound quite logical to me and I don't think that you're nuts, crosswire

I've another few questions:

Why should we trust the bible?
Where comes the bible from, anyway?

Your first quesion is similar to one of your earlier questions: "Why should we believe anything in the bible?" - like I said before...I find it to be the most logical choice...it makes more sense to me than anything else...it rings true for me on both a personal and logical level...it just "clicks" for me...just the way it doesn't click for you, I would think.

As for where it comes from - I'm pretty sure it was inspired by God and written by ordinary (sort of) people. Unfortunatly we don't have much of what you would call a record of anything that happened too long ago.

With this Noach guy and the flood, how can there ever have fallen more water than there was first on earth?

evolution

no matter what you say about evolution, it is the truth. Yes, an amoebe can develope into a cow. No problem at all. It only takes a few billion years, but it has happened.

In the bible there's no sentence about dinosaurs or the Neanderthal man.

The Humans that are mentioned in the bible are just as intelligent as we are and with the same physical characteristics. In the Beginning a fairy-tale about a 'bad' apple and a 'bad' snake (and woman) and suddenly there are the first two Humans placed in a barren and hostile world. They multiply and see, there's a huge population of healthy people, right?

WRONG. If you would start a population with just 2 people, inbreeding would be insufficient to describe the offspring after 5-10 generations. Within 700 years, the Human race would have ceased to exist.

The lessons everyone gets with History are most close to the truth than anything else.

Just saying: "God made them have healthy offspring" won't do this time, coz it explains nothing and I would have to ask: "How do you know?"
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To come back at this Jesus guy: this wasn't a supernatural being. It was a normal, healthy young man of who people say that he could do some fancy stuff. Maybe some of these so called 'miracles' are true, but maybe it's just one big fantasy, written down by a Human for... Yeah, for what anyway?
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The universe was a tiny spot of very high density. Then it expanded. A process of which we still can see the progress: The stars are still moving away from one central point .

As easily as in the bible where it's done in 6 days, so easy things don't go in reality...

'Let the Laws of Physics guide you, my child, on your way to understanding'

With this Noach guy and the flood, how can there ever have fallen more water than there was first on earth?

It was a miracle - not to sound arrogant, but please stop with the questions that have amazingly obvious answers...it is pointless.

Originally posted by Elledan evolution

no matter what you say about evolution, it is the truth. Yes, an amoebe can develope into a cow. No problem at all. It only takes a few billion years, but it has happened.

There you go: you have no proof...neither do I, but at least I don't imply that I do. Your arrogance and sureness of yourself are all by themselves a reason not to listen to everything you say.

Originally posted by Elledan
In the bible there's no sentence about dinosaurs or the Neanderthal man.

The Humans that are mentioned in the bible are just as intelligent as we are and with the same physical characteristics. In the Beginning a fairy-tale about a 'bad' apple and a 'bad' snake (and woman) and suddenly there are the first two Humans placed in a barren and hostile world. They multiply and see, there's a huge population of healthy people, right?

WRONG. If you would start a population with just 2 people, inbreeding would be insufficient to describe the offspring after 5-10 generations. Within 700 years, the Human race would have ceased to exist.

You're right - it just talks about people, God, and animals basically. You said you hadn't read the Bible...and every part I've read didn't necessarily imply that they were as intelligent as us. It's hard to say. Yet you declare it as an obvious fact. I also don't recall the Bible describing how they looked - so how do you know they have the same physical characteristics? This is very curious.

Yes, there was inbreeding at first - must have been. No matter whether you believe in a random explosion or not, wouldn't imbreeding HAVE to be part of it at some point? You're acting as if it's okay to believe in a super-powerful God, but not that he can guide us along at first? We needed his miracles and assistance to get us started...we're now out on our own.

Originally posted by Elledan
The lessons everyone gets with History are most close to the truth than anything else.

Pure and raw opinion.

Originally posted by Elledan
Just saying: "God made them have healthy offspring" won't do this time, coz it explains nothing and I would have to ask: "How do you know?"

Did I SAY I knew? No, I didn't. I think you need to realize that NONE of us know what happened, no matter what our beliefs...we simply make an educated decision and try to figure it out for ourselves.

Originally posted by Elledan
The universe was a tiny spot of very high density. Then it expanded. A process of which we still can see the progress: The stars are still moving away from one central point .

As easily as in the bible where it's done in 6 days, so easy things don't go in reality...

'Let the Laws of Physics guide you, my child, on your way to understanding'

Once again: see my earlier post about arrogant scientists. Keep in mind that it's almost always in their interest to "discover" something. FYI: just because we see the universe moving away from a central point doesn't imply that God does not exist at all. If anything, it almost sounds like the hint of intelligent design - something I see everywhere.

Easy things don't go in reality? You're smarter than that, Elledan, but comments like that do not speak well of you. God is God...if we're going to assume he exists, then creating the universe in less than 6 days would be a cinch...what you're essentially saying is "C'mon, how could an all-powerful God create the world in 6 days?"...which is, bluntly, absurd!

Some people replied to my earlier post about people being forced into Christianity.... yes, it's true. That's why Christianity is so "popular" today. There was a time when people were burnt to death for going against Christianity. Thankfully in this day and age we can think what we want. However, it still happens today. For example, if I was to change my forum signature to say "I WORSHIP SATAN," I would of course be told to remove it ASAP. This is exactly how Christianity spread--people weren't allowed to believe anything else.

Originally posted by Elledan Monogamy is one of the things that will kill Humanity in the next few centuries. More and more people will be born disabled. Many of the new born will later in their life become handicapped due to genetic defects. It will be something like Armageddon, but then much more slower, deadlier and painful...

Humanity will grow weaker and weaker and our world will collapse. Maybe not this century, maybe not even the next, but it will happen. Unless we change something dramatically before that time. The Choice is ours...

What do you mean "The Choice is ours"? It's not a choice. You seem to think that humanity is going to continue just like it is at the minute. Er, don't you think it's possible that in a hundred years time most people will have multiple partners? A hundred years ago people would never have gotten divorced, etc.... now divorce is an everyday thing. A hundred years from now... who's to say what we'll be doing? We certainly won't be living like we are living now

Originally posted by crosswire I believe in Jesus - but not like most people. I believe he was real - but he was an alien. Superior beings trying to teach us a lesson. Something like that anyway....

Erm.... "not like most people"? I actually laughed when people replied saying "that's an interesting point of view". What is God if he's not a so-called "alien"? I never thought he was another human being and if anybody thinks he is then WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU? Remember "The Virgin Mary"..... notice the Virgin? How can this guy be human if his mum was still a virgin... come on guys, you can't really have believed he was a human ....

BTW my own opinion on this is that, if Jesus did exist, then of course his mum was not a virgin, I don't believe that a woman could become pregnant without having sexual intercourse. I personally don't believe any of the Bible.

Either Jesus was an Alien, a normal guy, or a supernatural being...IE: God. He can be all-powerful, but can't have a Virgin give birth to him? Sheesh. That's part of the whole "thing"...the purity of Mary.