Our priest has been talking lately about the likelihood of a pan-Orthodox synod to discuss the calendar, ecumenical, and other issues.

His take was that, regarding the "ecumenists" and the "old calendarists" and the other various groups battling it out as well as the jurisdictional status in new areas, we shouldn't be picking and choosing who is and isn't correct until we have a synod. We shouldn't be effectively or officially excommunicating each other until these issues are discussed properly.

I know that some here have said it won't happen because it would require us to revisit and condemn the Latins. I can't imagine why or how we could possibly say more than we have.

What is the chance of a synod happening any time soon?

After the death of the Bishop of Rome, I have to wonder what will happen at the repose of the EP. If he cannot be replaced with anyone suitable or if the Turks simply don't allow his replacement, will this trigger a synod? What are the chances of that?

Do we really need a synod, or will we be able to resolve these problems without one?

Well, to the best of my knowledge, there are still suitable replacements for the EP in the ranks of the Patriarchal clergy - and remember, BARTHOLOMEW is young, so I doubt we'll have to deal with this issue any time soon.

And I don't think that a major reason would be the condemnation of the Latins - I don't even think that is on the radar for those organizing the Pan-Orthodox Synod. Remember, a Pan-Orthodox Synod has a different purpose and scope than an "Ecumenical" one.

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"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

Well, to the best of my knowledge, there are still suitable replacements for the EP in the ranks of the Patriarchal clergy - and remember, BARTHOLOMEW is young, so I doubt we'll have to deal with this issue any time soon.

And I don't think that a major reason would be the condemnation of the Latins - I don't even think that is on the radar for those organizing the Pan-Orthodox Synod. Remember, a Pan-Orthodox Synod has a different purpose and scope than an "Ecumenical" one.

I don't really get this "condemnation of the Latins" thing either. His All-H is young? How old is he?

65 can be young and it can be old. But will he last another twenty to thirty years? It's possible, but then that's only twenty to thirty years. I may not be around, but that doesn't seem long to me.

How likely is it that we'll see a synod with Patrarch Bartholomew? Has there been any discussion?

My priest talks about it like it's going to happen very soon. Because the Serbian church dealt with a schism that was healed, I was wondering if we are more likely to assume that this will happen sooner than later.

Are we better off *not* coming to a decision on these issues and just remaining in communion, or should we deal with them now before they became greater barriers?

How likely is it that we'll see a synod with Patrarch Bartholomew? Has there been any discussion?

In an interveiw, still available on the goarch website, the EP speaks of working on the next council with a target date "before the next millennium". Presumably this was 2000-2001 and not 3000-3001. . I might review the interview to see if he mentions the kind of council's agenda being worked out (I think he does state this.)

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Are we better off *not* coming to a decision on these issues and just remaining in communion, or should we deal with them now before they became greater barriers?

Matters probably will not improve by ignoring the issues indefinitely.

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"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

[Well, to the best of my knowledge, there are still suitable replacements for the EP in the ranks of the Patriarchal clergy - ]

And are they all natural born Turkish citizens as required by Turkish law? And what are the odds that the one chosen will be accepted by the Turkish government? Can you prove to us (me) that the current EP was the first choice of the Synod in the last election?

Orthodoc

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Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.

Or better yet, prove the current MP wasn't the choice of the atheists...Better for Moscow to tend to its problems - putting itself back together again, dealing the Ukrainian mess; Costantinople will solve its problems.

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"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Or better yet, prove the current MP wasn't the choice of the atheists...Better for Moscow to tend to its problems - putting itself back together again, dealing the Ukrainian mess; Costantinople will solve its problems.

Nah, the EP question is much more important (and interesting) since they're kinda "stuck" right now. Again, I fully realize Pat. Alexy II is a dubious (former) KGB agent, but he hasn't been as scandalous so to speak and in a political catch-22 like Pat. Bart.

Cizinec,Yup (on age). Just look at retired Met. Theodosius. I think I heard he's actually younger than Met. Herman and was <70 when he retired for health reasons. Comepare that to Serbian Pat. Pavle who just turned 90 (or is that Bulgarian Pat. Maxim?). I guess his All-H just looks older. Is ABp Dem older or younger?

The scope of a Pan-Orthodox Synod will be administrative, not doctrinal, in nature.

But I ask myself: are ecumenism and the calendar administrative or (at least partially) doctrinal matters?

I think that some of the most important issues of such a gathering would be:

(a) ecumenism;(b) the Church calendar;(c) the list of the autocephalic churches and their respective jurisdictional territories;(d) the Western rite.

Issues (c) and (d) are probably more of an administrative nature indeed. Issue (b) is, in my opinion, a consequence of the issue (a). But issue (a) depends on a previous discussion about the status of the non-Orthodox churches -- specially Roman Catholics and Protestants, as no Ecumenical Council has deliberated about these groups yet.

Defining precisely what do these churches are and what is their relation with the Orthodox Church is a prerequisite to a profitable discussion about what we can and what we cannot do or profess in our dealings with them -- and this is the core of the ecumenist issue.

I think it would be very hard to discuss these subjects in a purely administrative level, with no reference to doctrinary matters. One of the points of such a discussion would be, for instance: "What is the difference between the RCC and the EOC? Why isn't the RCC in communion with us?" I don't see how can one avoid doctrinary definitions in coping with this kind of problem. And I'm not sure that all the required doctrinary definitions were already expressly formulated in previous Ecumenical Councils.

As you will see by the attached fact sheet, our beloved Ecumenical Patriarchate is quietly and incessantly being asphyxiated by the subtle persecution of the Turkish government. The historical flame of our Christian Faith is flickering on our Mother Church and it is our sacred duty as Archons and as Christians to protect this 2,000-year-old holy institution, the spiritual center of world Orthodoxy, from Institutional Genocide. As bearers of our priceless legacy, we can do no less than our Catholic brothers do for the Vatican or our Jewish brethren for Jerusalem.

In concert with His Eminence Archbishop Demetrios, the Order is undertaking a major effort consonant with our role as Defenders of the Faith,?to raise issues of religious freedom to the United States Government and the European Union as they begin to negotiate EU accession with Turkey. As you know, Turkey wants very much to become an EU member and will have to improve their practices with regard to religious human rights. Our effort is to assure that the treatment of the Ecumenical Patriarchate by the government of Turkey and its dismal religious human rights record must be corrected in order for Turkey to gain entry into the EU.

This is a crisis of historic magnitude! The more Americans know about the severe pressures and deprivation of basic religious rights presently suffered by His All Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew, the more responsive will be our own US Government to pushing the EU on our behalf. Please help us. Share the information on the attached fact sheet with as many people as possible. Share it with any media people you may know or other important Americans. Also, some Archons are wearing their rosette more frequently and are using inquiries about it as a way of opening the subject of the plight of the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

Together we can protect and promote our Ecumenical Patriarchate, but it will require great effort over a long period pf time. The martyrs of the early Church were called to witness to the truth with their lives. We are asking you to bear witness with your words and deeds. As Defenders of the Faith, the time has come to proactively safeguard the Holy and Great Mother Church of Constantinople.

Recent developments have put into jeopardy the seat of the spiritual leader of millions of Americans and 300 million Orthodox Christians around the world-the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople in Istanbul, Turkey. In many ways the Ecumenical Patriarchate is to Orthodox Christians what the Vatican is to Catholics.

This living pillar of history for all Christians is jeopardized. The Apostle Andrew (the brother of Saint Peter) established the Ecumenical Patriarchate in what is today Turkey in 37 A.D. Turkey has violated basic universally recognized human rights and have taken actions against the religious rights of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. The seven Ecumenical Councils, all of which were held under the Ecumenical Patriarchate's religious jurisdiction over 1500 years ago, defined and solidified the doctrines of the undivided and universal Christian Church. It was in the jurisdictional see of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, that the New Testament was codified, the constitutional framework of the Christian Church established and the great Creeds first confessed.

Some recent actions by Turkey against the religious rights of the Ecumenical Patriarchate follow. The Turkish government continues and if we do not raise our concerns, the Ecumenical Patriarchate will be facing Institutional Genocide.

a.. Since 2002, the Turkish government has confiscated 75% of the 1,747 Ecumenical Patriarchate's properties, including an orphanage the Church has held since 1902. Turkey suddenly put a 42% tax, retroactive to 1999, on the Christian Churches' Balukli Hospital, which treats 30-40,000 patients a year of which 99% are Muslim and Turkish citizens. b.. In December 2004, the government of Turkey reversed its commitment to President George Bush to reopen the Theological School at Halki. By doing so, they kept the Ecumenical Patriarchate in Turkey's ominous "catch 22" - requiring that the Ecumenical Patriarch be a Turkish citizen while keeping Turkish citizens from qualifying. This assures the governmental-extinction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. Not reopening the Theological School, guarantees that none of the remaining 2,000 Turkish citizens who are Orthodox (reduced from hundreds-of-thousands by official discrimination) can become clergy and, more importantly, Ecumenical Patriarch. c.. The Turkish government prevents the Orthodox Christian Church from selecting any canonically eligible bishop throughout the world from becoming the Ecumenical Patriarch by requiring Turkish citizenship and other restrictions. d.. The Turkish government refuses to recognize the Ecumenical Patriarchate as a bona fide legal entity, a critical issue since without a legal personality it cannot own property and properly function as a religious institution. The Prime Minister of Turkey, in late 2004, reversed his commitment to recognize the Ecumenical Patriarch as the head of the world's Orthodox Christians, instead of just a simple, local Orthodox clergyman. The Prime Minister also insists on keeping the authority to veto the Patriarchal Holy Synod's selection of Ecumenical Patriarch

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Please note what I have underlined and put in bold print. Now you have heard it from your own sources.

Orthodoc

« Last Edit: April 07, 2005, 08:06:38 PM by Orthodoc »

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Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.

Bob,No one here is denying a 450+ year problem doesn't exist. I am delighted you've joined the cause. If not for the Turks, I would right now probably be an anchovie or sardine fisherman or a copper pot maker as my ancestors were for hundreds of years in Trapezounta, happy and WARM. It seems most evident this new Turkish gov't continues to use the Patriarchate as a tool to force its EU demands while at the same time stealing "legally" from the Christians. Only Sen. Clinton (I can't believe it, but it is so) is openly condemning the Turks on their treatment of us. She, of course, has ensured the votes of all Astoria in doing so at the Helsinki commission, but it would be helpful if more could apply pressure from the US. ...instead of endless, pointless argument here.

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"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

When Alexy II was elected Patriarch, Russia was still part of the USSR, which was still governed by the CPSU, which was still much helped by the KGB.

Please, guys, I wasn't maligning the MP, only pointing out that we Greeks don't think less of him (or even believe or care about the commies); and so, why do others not under Constantinople freak out so about our plight.

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"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Bob,No one here is denying a 450+ year problem doesn't exist. I am delighted you've joined the cause.

...instead of endless, pointless argument here.

I think most of us have always been with the cause - we just don't support this recent Canon 28 nonesense , corresponding political posturing and butting in to other Churches' business.

We WANT him to have a flock - a LOCAL flock. This doesn't he should abandon every foreign domain, but probably most of them. We WANT all of these supposed people you mention to come out of the woodwork. Let Constantinople shine again!

We WANT him to have a flock - a LOCAL flock. This doesn't he should abandon every foreign domain, but probably most of them. We WANT all of these supposed people you mention to come out of the woodwork. Let Constantinople shine again!

Huh??? What "supposed people" did I mention?

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"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

[Can you prove he wasn't?]Why do you always avoid answering the questions posed?

You're asking me to prove a negative, which is absurd. I'm taking the posistion that the word of the Patriarchal Synod should be trusted unless you have proof to the contrary, a perfectly rational posistion. Though I do enjoy your almost comical conspiracy theorist outlook on the situation...let me guess, the Illuminati and Knights Templar are are somehow involved too...LOL.

Not if it stays on its present course. This is real life. Italso comes from Greek Orthodox sources. Note the last sentence -

This is real life, and the Patriarchate will survive, just you watch. As far as the right of the State to approve Patriarchal Elections, so what? This is the case in other Patriarchates as well and has been for centuries, a 'veto power' is a relatively minor influence, one that the Church has long considered acceptable.

[why do others not under Constantinople freak out so about our plight.]

What we freak out about is the way you have chosen so far to deal with your plight and how it interferes and effects our churches. Interferring in the administrative functions of other patriarchates and attempts to sheep steal will not solve your problems. Seeing the reality of your situation and acting accordingly will.

It's all very simple. If the EP removes himself from Turkey so he can attend his flock without Moselm interference and control, he still has a chance. To remain and try to solve the problem by interference in other Orthodox Patriarchates and hob nob with the RC's can only lead to his demise in the not to distant future.

Until then don't expect we Orthodox in America to put ourselves under such terrible odds.

Orthodoc

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Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.

Bob, It's your maniacal loathing for the EP that sets me off. Outside that, I don't want him interfereing elsewhere. I objected to his handling of Estonia, now the Ukraine.But his abandoning his flock in the capital of his see 'cause the going is tough is ridiculous.No one's asking you to "put themselves under him" here.

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"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

[I'm taking the posistion that the word of the Patriarchal Synod should be trusted unless you have proof to the contrary, a perfectly rational posistion. ]

What word of the Patriachal Synod? You have yet to show us where we can read about the election of this EP. And you have yet to prove your claim that he was the first choice of the synod of bishops and accepted by the Turkish Moselm government after the first vote.

[As far as the right of the State to approve Patriarchal Elections, so what? ]

So What? As I write this there are only 2000 Orthodox Christians left in Turkey to pick from. Narrow that down to celibate Monks and what are you left with?

[Phyletism! (I always seem to get falsely accused of it, so when I see it really taking place I think I should start pointing it out )]

The very name you go by reeks of phyletism!

Felipe writes:

[When Alexy II was elected Patriarch, Russia was still part of the USSR, which was still governed by the CPSU, which was still much helped by the KGB.]

Patriarch Alexy II was elected at the June 1990 Sobor. (*) It was the first council since 1917 at which a genuine secret ballot, with multiple candidates occured.

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Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.

Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding, but I thought GiC has been arguing that America is one of the "barbarian lands" and thus should be under the EP.

(Or if he hasn't argued that explicity, it's the logical result of his position.)

Why do you assume I follow greekischristian's line verbatim? He's the canon law specialist, not me. I refer to what is actually happening here.As to moving the EP...fine. Perhaps he should move to NY or DC...make everyone happy? Except those left in Turkey.

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"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Why do you assume I follow greekischristian's line verbatim? He's the canon law specialist, not me. I refer to what is actually happening here.As to moving the EP...fine. Perhaps he should move to NY or DC...make everyone happy? Except those left in Turkey.

I didn't mean to suggest that you were following his line, just that if he's arguing that point, then there is someone suggesting that we put ourselves under him. I apologize if I phrased the previous comment poorly.

Speaking of moving the EP to the US, didn't Metropolitan Philip of the Antiochian Archdiocese actually suggest that a while back? (Or he could have been talking about moving the Antiochian Patriarchate; can't seem to find the article I'm thinking of.)

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Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great

Speaking of moving the EP to the US, didn't Metropolitan Philip of the Antiochian Archdiocese actually suggest that a while back? (Or he could have been talking about moving the Antiochian Patriarchate; can't seem to find the article I'm thinking of.)

Yes he did and that he would submit to the EP gladly. The metropolitan has guts. I'm sure that sent shock waves out, a tsunami.I wonder if he is just as frustrated as everyone else? Seems even if Constantinople were to "pull out", if that were even possible, that would solve little.

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"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

And this thread has degraded into yet another 'Let us ignore the Oecumenical Synods and attack the Oecumenical Throne' thread. So I believe I've finished directly addressing this ludicracy...and hopefully some of the members on this board can suppress their burning hatred of His All-Holiness long enough to have a sensable conversation.

« Last Edit: April 07, 2005, 11:25:47 PM by greekischristian »

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"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

I didn't want to start a fight. I did, however, get some information I was wanting, and for that I thank you all.

Concerning the question of doctrinal issues, I think they can limit their discussions to more practical matters and steer away from the underlying doctrinal matters until a time can be set to deal with them.

I didn't realize there was a possibility that the EP could be relocated here. Without thinking it through, I can't say that I think that would be a bad thing. If anything, it would just be a physical realization of something that has been practically in effect for a very long time.

If the EP did move to the US (hmm...."Archbishop of Constantinople, New Rome, and San Antonio, Ecumenical Patriarch"...has a nice ring to it ), what effect would that have on the process of uniting the American jurisdictions into a single canonical entity?

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Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great

Not necessarily you - I think it was GiC or maybe cleveland back in the Anti-Western Orthodoxy or Autocephaly at the Will of the EP threads in earlier pages. One them I think made some extremely optimistic point (to put it nicely) that if the Turkish governtment removed their oppressive yolk (i.e. upon entrance into the EU as a condition), that a few hundred thousand Orthodox would suddenly come out of the woodwork.

Not necessarily you - I think it was GiC or maybe cleveland back in the Anti-Western Orthodoxy or Autocephaly at the Will of the EP threads in earlier pages. One them I think made some extremely optimistic point (to put it nicely) that if the Turkish governtment removed their oppressive yolk (i.e. upon entrance into the EU as a condition), that a few hundred thousand Orthodox would suddenly come out of the woodwork.

Okay, so I am an optimist - I don't think I said a "few hundred thousand", but that is a possibility. I just said that there are many crypto-Christians in Constantinople who would love to see an air of tolerance in the city. The government is a secular one, so that isn't the major reason why they're hiding - they hide because the ultra-religious Moslems have an all-too strong presence in the city - which is why you have the occasional grenade dropped in the Phanar (which is a factor I think some people forget about when they consider the actions and mentality of the EP - myself included).

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"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

Justinois,Again, most of us here don't see how 'condemning the Latins' would be in the scope of the Synod or even necessary. It's not really an adminstrative task that should be cleared up (as GiC previously clarified, as opposed to doctrinal issues).

cleveland,Oh, and I never would think to laugh at someone in the GOA going to seminary (or non GOAer going to HC). There's plenty more to laugh about if I wanted to find something (as in most of the other jurisidictions as well!).

i'm not so certain that the calendar will be rubber stamped. i know that most people think it is a shoe-in, but I disagree. i just don't see a group of bishops arguing about the convenience of the new calendar are going to win the day in a synod. I also think that it will be a hard sell on Christian unity when it has caused disunity with Orthodoxy. Disunity for unity? Who is for this newly modified "Julian" calendar? The EP, the Greeks and the Antiochians. Those are powerful folks. But don't count out the Russians, Serbs, Bulgarians, Romanians, etc. etc. etc. Some of these may be allowing modified calendars, but I get the impression that most of these churches aren't really happy about it. Let's not forget the zeal of those who are trying to preserve the calendar. I don't see the same enthusiasm from the other camp.

I think in a synod the burden will be on the new calendarists and it won't be as quick a task as you suppose.

*If* the new calendar were to be accepted I think it would be with some pretty serious caveats.

Speaking of moving the EP to the US, didn't Metropolitan Philip of the Antiochian Archdiocese actually suggest that a while back? (Or he could have been talking about moving the Antiochian Patriarchate; can't seem to find the article I'm thinking of.)

Umm, that might be a bit of a problem since America already has it's own local Church, whose primate has his cathedra in Washington D.C.

But then again, wouldn't this be typically "North American Orthodox", with overlapping juristictions, etc.?

Cizinec your surley not a bowler but you do new how to make intressting themes.

Maybe you are right , that we should call for a panorthodox meeting, actually I aggree with you,

But who sould we call ? Did you now that the EP including Balkan churches had condemt the new callender several times , still their using it !! Did you new that that many of the higgest in the hirarchy are auto-eretics because the have spituals meetings eith non-orthodox, did you new that actually anyone that's in the movment of ecuminism is auto-condemnt.

If they today don't follow the rulles the won't follow them after a Pan-Orthodox Synod. Actually why should we have a meeting when their have been several meeting about the calender ? Instead we should have a meeting to connect hte lost true orthodox, but the the price wil be very expensive because we will have to condemt the biggest part of the church

It sais in the bible that one day the churche will be ruled be wolfes in clothes of lambs,

No, brother Cinizec, I am reffering to all those families that have kept the Orthodoxy, with the help of God and the blessing of the Commynity of Saints, through 1100 years of attempts of Rome to rape us, and 500 years of attempts of Turks to converts us and 90 years of attempts of Communists to eradicate us and so on and on. OLD BELIEVERS... the cradle Orthodox, Orthdodox not just by faith but by nation. The Pharisees as the new conNTROverts are calling us. New converts that think that Orthodoxy is just another protestant sect that should be 'givean a go, 'coz it looks cool'. New converts that ridicule babushkas and traditions of the East and in doing so ridicule Tradition.Some say that it is good that Church is growing in the West. People count the numbers of people who are being babtised. And in doing so trying to revive their own dead faith. I (and many others, fundamentalists or blind latin haters, as we are commonly known) disagree. God is not God of quantity, but God of quality. West is rotten. West is dead. And all of those who, by the mercy of the Lord, became Orthodox and who still have that scholastic mind of the west, mind that will leave nothing unquestioned, that will try to explain everything and learn nothing, mind that is poisoning the Church in the west and in doing so pushing the poison of wrong ideas and culture of relativism into the Church at Home, all of them, new and smart people who know better that to do what we have done for two thousand years, all of them are not always welcome. When they are all gone because it is to hard or to oldfashioned or stupid, or to Greek or to Russian to do 'this thing 'bout salvation', when they are all gone, it will be left to us. And we wil do, quietly and humbly as it was done for 2000 years.