So I'm confused, like I say. How does that prayer give any proof that your god exists? Suppose I never prayed that way, but instead just shrugged and said "sh-- happens"? Would events unfold any differently?

Of course. You would be unaware of all the things God directly does for you.

Sorry, can you clarify? Are you saying that the ONLY difference between the "I pray" and the "I do not pray" reality would be my knowledge of what god did? But that what god did would NOT differ?

That is a good possibility. My wife was with me and .....

This would be an easier conversation if you stuck to the point. I am trying to clarify what you meant in response to my question "Would events unfold any differently (whether I prayed or not)?"

Your example of going to call a friend, and finding them already on the line to you. What do you calculate the odds are of that happening? I'd appreciate seeing how you arrived at the calculated odds please.

"In Gods Name" does not mean you get a free pass to anything you want ...

It does when the verse says:

Quote from: John 14:14

You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Asking for something "In my name" is not the same as "just say my name".I'll borrow your name for illustration.

I want this car in the name of President Azdgari.President Azdgari wants me to have this. Give it to me now.Azdgari asked me to with draw this money from the President Azdgari account. I will take this money in the name of President Azdgari.

Do you see how there is responsibly in the use of a name? How correct use requires your approval first?

Suppose I empty your bank account in your name. Could I do that again an hour later? Clearly this will only work with your approval. Legally, i get in trouble.Practically, your bank account gets emptied the first time.

Your example of going to call a friend, and finding them already on the line to you. What do you calculate the odds are of that happening? I'd appreciate seeing how you arrived at the calculated odds please.

You just can't control whether people answer every point or not. Some just get ignored because they are not interesting questions.

So I'm confused, like I say. How does that prayer give any proof that your god exists? Suppose I never prayed that way, but instead just shrugged and said "sh-- happens"? Would events unfold any differently?

Of course. You would be unaware of all the things God directly does for you.

Sorry, can you clarify? Are you saying that the ONLY difference between the "I pray" and the "I do not pray" reality would be my knowledge of what god did? But that what god did would NOT differ?

That is a good possibility. My wife was with me and .....

This would be an easier conversation if you stuck to the point. I am trying to clarify what you meant in response to my question "Would events unfold any differently (whether I prayed or not)?"

That's the classic time travel issue. Can I change future events? Because God exists outside of time and knows the futuredo things change or is everything pre-set in stone. It can't be answered by us linear time-line beings.

I want this car in the name of President Azdgari.President Azdgari wants me to have this. Give it to me now.Azdgari asked me to with draw this money from the President Azdgari account. I will take this money in the name of President Azdgari.

If I was actually President Azdgari, and if I'd already said you could ask for anything in my name, and if I had the power and authority to grant you that money, then that would be fine. This is the situation described by the scripture we both disrespect.

Suppose I empty your bank account in your name. Could I do that again an hour later? Clearly this will only work with your approval. Legally, i get in trouble.Practically, your bank account gets emptied the first time.

It only works with your full approval, every time.

You could do this. You wouldn't get much money the 2nd time, but you could still empty what was there. If it was a supernatural bank account without limits then you could draw from it indefinitely. And if I had already stated that you could ask for anything in my name, and get it, then (assuming my statement was recognized legally) you would have my permission.

I totally get that you don't believe in scripture. But at least have the balls to say so outright instead of these silly games.

You just can't control whether people answer every point or not. Some just get ignored because they are not interesting questions.

While I agree that obnoxious or trollish questions needn't be answered, on point questions should be. That is the policy of this forum. Otherwise people might be inclined to ignore questions they simply find difficult to answer or to avoid questions that are damaging to their argument.

Your example of going to call a friend, and finding them already on the line to you. What do you calculate the odds are of that happening? I'd appreciate seeing how you arrived at the calculated odds please.

You just can't control whether people answer every point or not. Some just get ignored because they are not interesting questions.

And some get ignored because the person knows that the answers would decimate his arguments, so its far safer to ignore them. Intellectual cowardice, I believe is the term.

So I'm confused, like I say. How does that prayer give any proof that your god exists? Suppose I never prayed that way, but instead just shrugged and said "sh-- happens"? Would events unfold any differently?

Of course. You would be unaware of all the things God directly does for you.

Sorry, can you clarify? Are you saying that the ONLY difference between the "I pray" and the "I do not pray" reality would be my knowledge of what god did? But that what god did would NOT differ?

That is a good possibility. My wife was with me and .....

This would be an easier conversation if you stuck to the point. I am trying to clarify what you meant in response to my question "Would events unfold any differently (whether I prayed or not)?"

That's the classic time travel issue. Can I change future events? Because God exists outside of time and knows the futuredo things change or is everything pre-set in stone. It can't be answered by us linear time-line beings.

Not very useful for your position, that response - because what you have just said is that you have NO idea whether something would or would not happen, whether or not you prayed - giving you no basis for any assumption that prayer actually works.

But in any case, it is a dodge. What I am asking you is whether the offering of a prayer affects what your god will do.

Say there is something you need. Really really need. But you do not know you need it.You pray for it. What does your god do?You do not pray for it. What does your god do?

Say there is something you need. Really really need. But you do not know you need it.You pray for it. What does your god do? You do not pray for it. What does your god do?

On those occasions, God has given me the peace to know He will "Take Care Of The Situation". Then He has instantly taken care of the situation, either as I had in mind, or way better than I had imagined.

I gained the blessing of knowing God was in charge. That may have been the only difference because blessings come to unbelievers as well. They just don't get the knowledge of where it comes from. Each breath is an example.

.....the bug under your floorboards. "You haven't killed him. Should the bug take this as clear evidence that you feel something specific for him? If not, why not?"

Fine. Bugs don't reason anything.

Now, assuming a reasoning bug.I don't kill him.Yes, I may be Buddist and not kill bugs. Lucky bug.I may not like sprays, lucky bug.I may not like the spray companies, lucky bug.I may not care about bugs, lucky bugs.I may kill him anyway with floor cleaner, unlucky bug.I may eat bugs and find him, unlucky bug.I may collect bugs and feed him in a box - goodI may collect bugs and stick him with a pin - bad for bugThe bug may get eaten by other bugs - bad

You just can't control whether people answer every point or not. Some just get ignored because they are not interesting questions.

While I agree that obnoxious or trollish questions needn't be answered, on point questions should be. That is the policy of this forum. Otherwise people might be inclined to ignore questions they simply find difficult to answer or to avoid questions that are damaging to their argument.

As a favor to your politeness I have answered the question about how a bug under the floorboards should interpret the decision of a man who chooses not to kill it. If you believe that will help the OP then I'll address the question directly.

However, the odds of me addressing such a lame question again are slim. But being new, I will try to respond to all polite questions. I admit, the bug under the floor boards was difficult for me to answer. Thanks for forcing me to cover the stuff you find critical.

Say there is something you need. Really really need. But you do not know you need it.You pray for it. What does your god do? You do not pray for it. What does your god do?

On those occasions, God has given me the peace to know He will "Take Care Of The Situation". Then He has instantly taken care of the situation, either as I had in mind, or way better than I had imagined.

Sorry Sky, but you are STILL missing the point of my question. I am asking you whether your god will take different actions, based on the same circumstances, depending on whether or not you have prayed.

So in my 2 questions (You pray for it. What does your god do? You do not pray for it. What does your god do?), is the answer the same, or different?

.....the bug under your floorboards. "You haven't killed him. Should the bug take this as clear evidence that you feel something specific for him? If not, why not?"

Fine. Bugs don't reason anything.

Now, assuming a reasoning bug.I don't kill him.Yes, I may be Buddist and not kill bugs. Lucky bug.I may not like sprays, lucky bug.I may not like the spray companies, lucky bug.I may not care about bugs, lucky bugs.I may kill him anyway with floor cleaner, unlucky bug.I may eat bugs and find him, unlucky bug.I may collect bugs and feed him in a box - goodI may collect bugs and stick him with a pin - bad for bugThe bug may get eaten by other bugs - bad

OK, you got me I guess.

Thank you for your honesty. When one being is so far in advance of another, the "lower" being cannot simply assume anything about the higher being, based on its own limited understanding. Even what appear to be clear signs (from the bug's point of view) could be for reasons both entirely unknown and unknowable.

.....the bug under your floorboards. "You haven't killed him. Should the bug take this as clear evidence that you feel something specific for him? If not, why not?"

Fine. Bugs don't reason anything.

Now, assuming a reasoning bug.I don't kill him.Yes, I may be Buddist and not kill bugs. Lucky bug.I may not like sprays, lucky bug.I may not like the spray companies, lucky bug.I may not care about bugs, lucky bugs.I may kill him anyway with floor cleaner, unlucky bug.I may eat bugs and find him, unlucky bug.I may collect bugs and feed him in a box - goodI may collect bugs and stick him with a pin - bad for bugThe bug may get eaten by other bugs - bad

OK, you got me I guess.

Thank you for your honesty. When one being is so far in advance of another, the "lower" being cannot simply assume anything about the higher being, based on its own limited understanding. Even what appear to be clear signs (from the bug's point of view) could be for reasons both entirely unknown and unknowable.

Well, all the references we have nix the Bug / Big Sneaker relationship and point toward a Father / Son / Children of God relationship. Children have faith that their parents won't squash them. Usually correct. Except in Milwaukee.

Even dogs and cats get protection from abuse, legally and morally. They don't fret about being squashed and they feel loved.

Say there is something you need. Really really need. But you do not know you need it.You pray for it. What does your god do? You do not pray for it. What does your god do?

On those occasions, God has given me the peace to know He will "Take Care Of The Situation". Then He has instantly taken care of the situation, either as I had in mind, or way better than I had imagined.

Sorry Sky, but you are STILL missing the point of my question. I am asking you whether your god will take different actions, based on the same circumstances, depending on whether or not you have prayed.

So in my 2 questions (You pray for it. What does your god do? You do not pray for it. What does your god do?), is the answer the same, or different?

I KNOW the point of your question, do I have control over what God does. I do not. I give Him control over what I ask for and He provides it.

Just a random thought, if I were a God I'd be looking for something a bit more interesting than submissive dependents to spend an eternity with I'd want them to self-sufficient, be a bit argumentative at times, inventive, spontaneous, and full of witty banter .... like:"Hey God, why the long face today, you gettin' bored with all this constant soul music up here?"

Sorry Sky, but you are STILL missing the point of my question. I am asking you whether your god will take different actions, based on the same circumstances, depending on whether or not you have prayed.

So in my 2 questions (You pray for it. What does your god do? You do not pray for it. What does your god do?), is the answer the same, or different?

I KNOW the point of your question, do I have control over what God does. I do not. I give Him control over what I ask for and He provides it.

Actually, you do NOT know the point of my question, because you are still not addressing it. Or perhaps you DO get the point, and that is WHY you aren't addressing it.

It's very simple, Sky. IS the answer to these two questions going to be the same, or different. That's all you have to say - "same", or "different".

There is something you need. Really really need. But you do not know you need it.You pray for it. What does your god do?You do not pray for it. What does your god do?

Does your god do the same thing in each of those two circumstances, or different things?

Sorry Sky, but you are STILL missing the point of my question. I am asking you whether your god will take different actions, based on the same circumstances, depending on whether or not you have prayed.

So in my 2 questions (You pray for it. What does your god do? You do not pray for it. What does your god do?), is the answer the same, or different?

I KNOW the point of your question, do I have control over what God does. I do not. I give Him control over what I ask for and He provides it.

Actually, you do NOT know the point of my question, because you are still not addressing it. Or perhaps you DO get the point, and that is WHY you aren't addressing it.

It's very simple, Sky. IS the answer to these two questions going to be the same, or different. That's all you have to say - "same", or "different".

There is something you need. Really really need. But you do not know you need it.You pray for it. What does your god do?You do not pray for it. What does your god do?

Does your god do the same thing in each of those two circumstances, or different things?

Sorry, I thought I covered that the first time you asked. Same. I'm no prophet so that's my view, not God's.

Just a random thought, if I were a God I'd be looking for something a bit more interesting than submissive dependents to spend an eternity with I'd want them to self-sufficient, be a bit argumentative at times, inventive, spontaneous, and full of witty banter .... like:"Hey God, why the long face today, you gettin' bored with all this constant soul music up here?"

Exactly. You'd want people that were there by choice. Not ones that you moved their mouths to say nice words to you all day, just like you made them do it.