Jack Reacher wrote:Haha no offense taken, I think you slightly misunderstand where im coming from in my point, like lucid did. Im not saying this entire topic and everyones beliefs are a waste of time, and im not saying deep contemplation about the nature of your existence is a waste of time either, I think I said this before a few times. I do however think that acting on something that isn't valid by its own defintition or something that is unfalsible is a bit irresponsible for an adult. To base and dedicate your life on something like this is your own choice, im fine with that and I mean no disrespect for those who choose to do so. Its when your actions get in the way of the reality of the issues in the real world where i think the problem lies.

Things like making your character/spirit/soul better by becoming a better person and being good natured, I have no problem with this at all, it makes logical sense to me and doesn't really rely on any kind of unknown concepts, you can experience the proof through your own actions, thats the beauty of it. Seeing issues in the world, in the community and other social areas in my life and choosing to do something good about it on my own terms and by my own will and experiencing the benefits that come from it is enough for me, its all I need. After doing this for a while, everything else is well, irrelevant. Unless of course you believe in an afterlife or you beleive that the events of this world are beyond your control and everything runs by some cosmic wacky order, thats when things get a bit iffy for me and to influence others peoples lives by this way of thinking just feels like a mistake for me.

Love it dude, I love it.

Worldenterer1 wrote:Why does America have to be so religious?

That's a great question.

Because that's how people were raised? My family is historically Anglican... however, my immediate family *NEVER* went to church or anything. I identified as having no religion. My parents (especially my father) were very anti-religion, in fact. I think it really veered me towards being more open minded... because I didn't want to be as closed-minded as my father when it came to stuff like this.

I can totally see more people *SLOWLY* coming around to removing religion from their life... I don't think it will ever go away completely, because some people need something like religion to hold onto to stabilize their lives... and I kind of have this feeling that, in some way, it's here to experience in order to learn to move past it. I dunno... just a thought.

Nice - it sounds simlar to my pathway in that i am accepting of a lot of issues and peoples views so I dont get so wound up about it all anymore. For me it a lot of stuff becomes quite netural and I can almost observe my reaction or lack of and think this is cool.My dreams are totally different than when I was young and they were full of violence.

This changing of self and the reflection into world around is an amazing, real and powerful concept

Who are you I asked, the reply "dont be silly, we are your daughers" many years before they were born

Summerlander wrote: I don't know if any of you are aware of Darwin's cousin Francis Galton's double-blind experiment on praying. He was one of the first to do it. It was proved being a shadow of a doubt that praying is ineffective. There were three groups of patients. One prayed for, one with just the medical assistance, and the other who were told that people were praying for them. There was no difference between the first and the second group, and the third, who knew, had terrible results.

Maybe the ones who were praying didn't really believe. It's interesting because I've had great results praying. You know we have that saying: You can't argue with results.

Actually, the ones who did the praying were part of churches and prayer groups. It was all about the pious trying to prove that prayers do work and science obliged in fairness. The Templeton Foundation has even funded research on this in an attempt to give theologians some ammo. It failed miserably as the universe, in all its glory, simply doesn't give a monkey's.

Ryan said:

So to directly answer your question... I changed myself, which, in turn, changed the world. I'm currently living the statement "Be the change you wish to see in the world."

You do know that Gandhi's philosophy, with his admirable pacifism, would have never worked with the Nazis like it did with the British, right?

"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

Because that's how people were raised? My family is historically Anglican... however, my immediate family *NEVER* went to church or anything. I identified as having no religion. My parents (especially my father) were very anti-religion, in fact. I think it really veered me towards being more open minded... because I didn't want to be as closed-minded as my father when it came to stuff like this.

I can totally see more people *SLOWLY* coming around to removing religion from their life... I don't think it will ever go away completely, because some people need something like religion to hold onto to stabilize their lives... and I kind of have this feeling that, in some way, it's here to experience in order to learn to move past it. I dunno... just a thought.

Yeah, I guess so. It just bugs me that we're pretty much the most technologically advanced, but alas.

Religious moderation emerged and propagated with scientific revelations that proved much of the ancient holy scriptures ridiculously inaccurate. In the end, the real battle is between rationalism and superstition. Science happens to be in the former category, religion in the latter.

I would absolutely say, with a strong conviction, that a scientific and secular mind is a mature one indeed, as opposed to the religious one which still revels in ignorance and immaturity. I think we should do everything we can to make sure that people in general see the real "light".

Religious belief is dangerous and misleading in so many ways. It also hinders our progress majorly, not to mention that it supports discrimination.

America may be religious because many of its ancestors came from other parts of the world, namely Europe, and the people at the time may have felt the need to identify with something. Again, religion might have play a role in bringing people together but it is not necessarily a good one. Politicians then were more agnostic and atheistic. Today, religion infects the political world.

While America have the words "In God We Trust" on a one-dollar bill, here in England we have Charles Darwin on a tenner. It's just how it is. If you don't like the religious, irrational fever of America, come to the UK. The government will look after you, too.

"Empty cognizance of one taste, suffused with knowing, is your unmistaken nature, the uncontrived original state. when not altering what is, allow it to be as it is, and the awakened state is right now spontaneously present."

Summerlander wrote:Religious moderation emerged and propagated with scientific revelations that proved much of the ancient holy scriptures ridiculously inaccurate. In the end, the real battle is between rationalism and superstition. Science happens to be in the former category, religion in the latter.

I would absolutely say, with a strong conviction, that a scientific and secular mind is a mature one indeed, as opposed to the religious one which still revels in ignorance and immaturity. I think we should do everything we can to make sure that people in general see the real "light".

Religious belief is dangerous and misleading in so many ways. It also hinders our progress majorly, not to mention that it supports discrimination.

America may be religious because many of its ancestors came from other parts of the world, namely Europe, and the people at the time may have felt the need to identify with something. Again, religion might have play a role in bringing people together but it is not necessarily a good one. Politicians then were more agnostic and atheistic. Today, religion infects the political world.

While America have the words "In God We Trust" on a one-dollar bill, here in England we have Charles Darwin on a tenner. It's just how it is. If you don't like the religious, irrational fever of America, come to the UK. The government will look after you, too.

Yeah. I hear ya. That is pretty awesome how Darwin is on your money. As religious as America can be, I do like the Bill of Rights. And... Guns In all seriousness though, I think that as long as people use them responsibly and correctly, firearms are a very useful tool that can be used for the benefit of all. Speaking of the government looking over me, I feel like America does that too much. The police are really powerful. The New York Police Department alone probably has enough power to take over a small country. Anyways, look at me rambling on about this irrelevant stuff. I ought to go start another thread about this kind of stuff.

Yeah you gotta be realistic and stand up for yourselves, you cant just sit back and hope the enemy sees te light and tries to become a better person. Instead, they will just take advantage of you for their own gains, that pretty much what war is all about, its a nash equilibrium.

Becoming a better person is something the individual decides or wants to do, its something you just choose. Its not something that should be done, or is a sort of natural law, because there really is no such thing as an overlying purpose or way of life, thats the beauty of it, you just choose it yourself. You do however choose the consequences that come with it.

"There is theoretical abstraction, and then there is true abstraction."

Jack Reacher wrote:Yeah you gotta be realistic and stand up for yourselves, you cant just sit back and hope the enemy sees te light and tries to become a better person. Instead, they will just take advantage of you for their own gains, that pretty much what war is all about, its a nash equilibrium.

Becoming a better person is something the individual decides or wants to do, its something you just choose. Its not something that should be done, or is a sort of natural law, because there really is no such thing as an overlying purpose or way of life, thats the beauty of it, you just choose it yourself. You do however choose the consequences that come with it.

I beg to differ... I believe that becoming a better person, becoming closer to "Love" is the entire point of this life.

You are right though, it's a choice. The actions you choose to determines how close you get to becoming Love. Why do I think this? Because it goes back to what I said before to Peter when he asked me what I meant when I said I've become a better person. My life has become so joyous ever since I "chose" become a better person and to perceive the world differently.