After reading some negative posts about HU, I searched through the Vault Law 100 and discovered that HU grads are present in many of the top firms. The commonality among associates and partners is Law Review. I recognize that making it onto a journal is very difficult (top 10%?), but it appears that HU does provide a pathway to BigLaw.

Is it irrational to assume that this is a feasible option? Is it equally as difficult to achieve top 30% at a T14 as it is to achieve top 10% at HU?

toshiroh wrote:If the poster is unable to get into a T14, and will likely end up at a TTT, I'd say HU would be a better bargain than different predominantly white TTT.

URMs are in a great position to get into good regional schools (Alabama/Florida/Georgia/LSU/Arizona/etc.) with good scholarships without predatory stipulations. Attending any TTT with predatory scholarship stipulations and under 50% placement in legal jobs is a bad move.

toshiroh wrote:If the poster is unable to get into a T14, and will likely end up at a TTT, I'd say HU would be a better bargain than different predominantly white TTT.

URMs are in a great position to get into good regional schools (Alabama/Florida/Georgia/LSU/Arizona/etc.) with good scholarships without predatory stipulations. Attending any TTT with predatory scholarship stipulations and under 50% placement in legal jobs is a bad move.

I agree, but I meant if it's likely that he's just going to end up at a TTT, HU would be a better option IMO

My understanding is t-14 transfers average above median. This can be they work harder (those with jobs don't have to worry about doubts about swimming with big fish). However, there is clearly something the top 10 percent at any school have that makes it difficult to say you'll be one of them. They are the actual special snowflakes. It would be easier to get median at Howard but the top ten percent would prob compete anywhere in the country.

toshiroh wrote:If the poster is unable to get into a T14, and will likely end up at a TTT, I'd say HU would be a better bargain than different predominantly white TTT.

URMs are in a great position to get into good regional schools (Alabama/Florida/Georgia/LSU/Arizona/etc.) with good scholarships without predatory stipulations. Attending any TTT with predatory scholarship stipulations and under 50% placement in legal jobs is a bad move.

I agree, but I meant if it's likely that he's just going to end up at a TTT, HU would be a better option IMO

I think some top firms like Skadden may be going to Howard's OCI and not similarly ranked schools with the intent to hire black students on law review so Howard has more value than other shitholes. However, if you were top third at a t-14 and black you are golden.

IMO: As a black person, your mentality should be T14 or Howard. If you get into a T14, take it, but if you don't, I do not know of a single school that I would advise taking over Howard.

Howard performs well above its ranking. If you have some particular regional affinity, maybe you should take Nova's advice and attend a T1 somewhere, but beyond that, I do believe Nova severely understates Howard's capacity and reach. If you're in the bottom of the class, things will be rough, but as far as I'm aware, that's true almost anywhere. Do not bank on being in the top 15%, but try to make a holistic decision about what risk you are willing to take, and how willing you are to accept certain outcomes.

Sidenote: A senior associate at one of the top firms in the DC area informed me, in confidence, that they felt seriously discriminated against by certain peers at their firm because of where they went to school (Howard). If you're considering Howard for its disproportional shot at Biglaw, this might be something worth considering.

VyingDestiny wrote:IMO: As a black person, your mentality should be T14 or Howard. If you get into a T14, take it, but if you don't, I do not know of a single school that I would advise taking over Howard.

Howard performs well above its ranking. If you have some particular regional affinity, maybe you should take Nova's advice and attend a T1 somewhere, but beyond that, I do believe Nova severely understates Howard's capacity and reach. If you're in the bottom of the class, things will be rough, but as far as I'm aware, that's true almost anywhere. Do not bank on being in the top 15%, but try to make a holistic decision about what risk you are willing to take, and how willing you are to accept certain outcomes.

Sidenote: A senior associate at one of the top firms in the DC area informed me, in confidence, that they felt seriously discriminated against by certain peers at their firm because of where they went to school (Howard). If you're considering Howard for its disproportional shot at Biglaw, this might be something worth considering.

VyingDestiny wrote:IMO: As a black person, your mentality should be T14 or Howard. If you get into a T14, take it, but if you don't, I do not know of a single school that I would advise taking over Howard.

Howard performs well above its ranking. If you have some particular regional affinity, maybe you should take Nova's advice and attend a T1 somewhere, but beyond that, I do believe Nova severely understates Howard's capacity and reach. If you're in the bottom of the class, things will be rough, but as far as I'm aware, that's true almost anywhere. Do not bank on being in the top 15%, but try to make a holistic decision about what risk you are willing to take, and how willing you are to accept certain outcomes.

Sidenote: A senior associate at one of the top firms in the DC area informed me, in confidence, that they felt seriously discriminated against by certain peers at their firm because of where they went to school (Howard). If you're considering Howard for its disproportional shot at Biglaw, this might be something worth considering.

VyingDestiny wrote:IMO: As a black person, your mentality should be T14 or Howard. If you get into a T14, take it, but if you don't, I do not know of a single school that I would advise taking over Howard.

Howard performs well above its ranking. If you have some particular regional affinity, maybe you should take Nova's advice and attend a T1 somewhere, but beyond that, I do believe Nova severely understates Howard's capacity and reach. If you're in the bottom of the class, things will be rough, but as far as I'm aware, that's true almost anywhere. Do not bank on being in the top 15%, but try to make a holistic decision about what risk you are willing to take, and how willing you are to accept certain outcomes.

Sidenote: A senior associate at one of the top firms in the DC area informed me, in confidence, that they felt seriously discriminated against by certain peers at their firm because of where they went to school (Howard). If you're considering Howard for its disproportional shot at Biglaw, this might be something worth considering.

This is a real thing to consider. 50 percent of black law students are in the bottom ten percent, yet black students who graded onto law review at non-top 14s are discriminated against. These students have proven data they're better than most top 14 black associates. I think because of the TTT stink in the 10 percent chance you win you still kinda lose logic, you should just retake. If you're lazy with the foundation of your career how can you expect to outgun the gunners to get top 10 percent? Is work ethic a light switch?

Thank you all for your responses/opinions. I'm an AA male from NorCal and my regional options are not great. Around here, it's UCB, S or blah... Statistics at Davis, Hastings, Santa Clara, McGeorge, San Francisco and Golden Gate present no better options than HU.

So my question is this: If I understand that I need to be at the top of the class at any law school to do well in the job market, why is HU not a better option than some top 30 schools for an AA male? Based solely on LST stats, HU and IUB are comparable. Yet there are 100 schools between them.

flat-fifth wrote:Thank you all for your responses/opinions. I'm an AA male from NorCal and my regional options are not great. Around here, it's UCB, S or blah... Statistics at Davis, Hastings, Santa Clara, McGeorge, San Francisco and Golden Gate present no better options than HU.

So my question is this: If I understand that I need to be at the top of the class at any law school to do well in the job market, why is HU not a better option than some top 30 schools for an AA male? Based solely on LST stats, HU and IUB are comparable. Yet there are 100 schools between them.

Don't go to ANY law school in which you need to be at the top of the class to do well in the job market

flat-fifth wrote:Thank you all for your responses/opinions. I'm an AA male from NorCal and my regional options are not great. Around here, it's UCB, S or blah... Statistics at Davis, Hastings, Santa Clara, McGeorge, San Francisco and Golden Gate present no better options than HU.

So my question is this: If I understand that I need to be at the top of the class at any law school to do well in the job market, why is HU not a better option than some top 30 schools for an AA male? Based solely on LST stats, HU and IUB are comparable. Yet there are 100 schools between them.

The thing is, at certain schools in the T14, that "need" to be at the top of the class doesn't exist. People on this site vastly underestimate the affirmative action hiring process, and just how far firms will dip to strengthen their diversity numbers. For more information on this, look up Richard Sander, and don't read his stuff for the conclusions, but just to understand the reality of law school performance for blacks. It is not a pretty picture, and yet, from certain angles, you would really think the jobs are raining. While of course, I can only speak to my experience and what I've witnessed, reality and popular wisdom are pretty damn far apart.

Another thing is, you have to distinguish between two things: 'the' job market, and the 'biglaw' job market. Howard does pretty well in the latter, considering all other factors, but as others have said, its job placement as a whole leaves much to be desired. Your first post referred to biglaw specifically, which is why I referenced it, but legal hiring as a whole is a different ballgame.

There are certain things I am just uncomfortable saying on here, but if you want more information, or just want to talk on the phone, hit me up via PM. I would hope its obvious, but I am also a black male, and I went through the same process of trying to make sense of what were my options and what were my chances given those options. I don't pretend to have all the answers, but hopefully I can share some helpful information I've picked up.

flat-fifth wrote:Thank you all for your responses/opinions. I'm an AA male from NorCal and my regional options are not great. Around here, it's UCB, S or blah... Statistics at Davis, Hastings, Santa Clara, McGeorge, San Francisco and Golden Gate present no better options than HU.

So my question is this: If I understand that I need to be at the top of the class at any law school to do well in the job market, why is HU not a better option than some top 30 schools for an AA male? Based solely on LST stats, HU and IUB are comparable. Yet there are 100 schools between them.

The thing is, at certain schools in the T14, that "need" to be at the top of the class doesn't exist. People on this site vastly underestimate the affirmative action hiring process, and just how far firms will dip to strengthen their diversity numbers. For more information on this, look up Richard Sander, and don't read his stuff for the conclusions, but just to understand the reality of law school performance for blacks. It is not a pretty picture, and yet, from certain angles, you would really think the jobs are raining. While of course, I can only speak to my experience and what I've witnessed, reality and popular wisdom are pretty damn far apart.

Another thing is, you have to distinguish between two things: 'the' job market, and the 'biglaw' job market. Howard does pretty well in the latter, considering all other factors, but as others have said, its job placement as a whole leaves much to be desired. Your first post referred to biglaw specifically, which is why I referenced it, but legal hiring as a whole is a different ballgame.

There are certain things I am just uncomfortable saying on here, but if you want more information, or just want to talk on the phone, hit me up via PM. I would hope its obvious, but I am also a black male, and I went through the same process of trying to make sense of what were my options and what were my chances given those options. I don't pretend to have all the answers, but hopefully I can share some helpful information I've picked up.

Best of luck to you, regardless.

15% in big law is pretty well? I consider Northwestern and Cornell pretty good at placing into big law at around 50%. 15% is not pretty well by any metric. Just because it does better than its TTT peer schools doesn't mean you should attend for a legit shot at big law.

VyingDestiny wrote:1. IMO: As a black person, your mentality should be T14 or Howard. If you get into a T14, take it, but if you don't, I do not know of a single school that I would advise taking over Howard.

1. There are SO MANY schools outside the T14 that place MUCH BETTER than Howard that do not have TERRIBLE stipulations on their scholarship.

2. Less than half the class will ever practice law. What else do you need to know?

3. But their scholarship stipulations require you to be in the top 15% 50% or else you are going to be paying 100k over 2L & 3L in tuition and cost of living. If you don't get biglaw, youll be in big financial trouble.

Last edited by Nova on Thu Jan 02, 2014 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

VyingDestiny wrote:1. IMO: As a black person, your mentality should be T14 or Howard. If you get into a T14, take it, but if you don't, I do not know of a single school that I would advise taking over Howard.

1. There are SO MANY schools outside the T14 that place MUCH BETTER than Howard that do not have TERRIBLE stipulations on their scholarship.

2. Less than half the class will ever practice law. What else do you need to know?

3. But their scholarship stipulations require you to be in the top 15% or else you are going to be paying 100k over 2L & 3L in tuition and cost of living. If you don't get biglaw, youll be in big financial trouble.

Whats the difference between employer score 47.7% and the 75% that get full time jobs 9 months after graduation?

VyingDestiny wrote:IMO: As a black person, your mentality should be T14 or Howard. If you get into a T14, take it, but if you don't, I do not know of a single school that I would advise taking over Howard.