Quote Bernard Lietaer: Money is like an iron ring we've put through our noses. We've forgotten that we designed it, and it's now leading us around. I think it's time to figure out where we want to go -- in my opinion toward sustainability and community -- and then design a money system that gets us there. The origin of the word "community" comes from the Latin munus, which means the gift, and cum, which means together, among each other. So community literally means to give among each other. Therefore I define my community as a group of people who welcome and honor my gifts, and from whom I can reasonably expect to receive gifts in return.

Without a government, social contracts would spring up unto someone with more than another would have more to trade, but less to seek. They'll gain power over others and you will soon gain a government.

And money is another form of service for a service. How would you get food without trading for something? How would you trade for anything, without something?You won't be able to, and the poor would die off. The middle class would slowly become poor, and die off. The rich would have everything, until they started drifting into wars to captures what others have.

If you are proposing anarchy, that is what you will get. If you are proposing a true form of communism, you will never get it. Humans are not ants, and never will be. And even ants are controlled by a leader.

First the fed, the fed is a subsidiary of the IMF and all other central banks, including but not limited to the Russian, Asian and Arab central banks....in other words the entire world..

What is money, money is the "gas" that gets men to get up and go, it is meaningless, it is the resources and labor that matter, the money however is an illusion, he who has the most believable illusion, has the most powerful currency and thus the most productive citizens and thus country....alla USA

Now as the generational brainwash has been handed down generation after generation, we now have a unasinous vapid minded population that grew unaware of the primary function and purpose of a "government" is to be the STEWARDS AND PROTECTORS OF A "FREE" MONEY PRINTED BY THE PEOPLE FOR THE PEOPLE...

WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?

a buildingsome workerssome pressessome inksome paper

"The kinko's printing operation ensues"

So....how much does this cost?

Maybe 30 mil?

So that's what you should be paying in APPORTIONED TAX for the privilege of using your money...30 mil divided by 300 mil

Not a private co. selling the money to you at interest,,, cause baby now your borrowing it...and what kind of government would protect such a deal...a deal that enslaves its people for many future generations...

Why a government that is taken over and run by the people that print your money...

Because if we can control the spending habits of the country we can control the borrowing...ie. profit for us the private bank...

Your income tax goes to governmental expansion and 6% dividends off of EVERYTHING...IE. DOUBLE DIPPING

Fiat money is fine...

This is us, the people of the usa, our total output is x amount of dollars in labor and goods...we print x amount of faith based money to back up our effort...

That's all fiat money is...and the principal is fine.... JUST NOT WHEN ITS IN THE HANDS OF PRIVATE CORPS.

Ron Paul is right about one thing...people are waking up to the shell game...

We want our money back

We want to re-write the tax code with apportioned taxation only

We want war to stop

We want tax, license, fees shoved back into the ass from which it came

Everything that was good from 1776- 1912 has been erased by theses private Zionist companies and their cohorts....energy,war machines and pharma...

There are no democrat, there are no Republicans...or any in between....

Without a government, social contracts would spring up unto someone with more than another would have more to trade, but less to seek. They'll gain power over others and you will soon gain a government.

And money is another form of service for a service. How would you get food without trading for something? How would you trade for anything, without something?You won't be able to, and the poor would die off. The middle class would slowly become poor, and die off. The rich would have everything, until they started drifting into wars to captures what others have.

If you are proposing anarchy, that is what you will get. If you are proposing a true form of communism, you will never get it. Humans are not ants, and never will be. And even ants are controlled by a leader.

Anarchy is merely libertarian socialism; that is, pure communism.

It has nothing to do with ants; that's colonialism, which is a form of Imperialism, which is pure Capitalism.

You seem to have it all backwards; think about what is being proposed before posting again.

That is a very very good post, and I congratulate Anonymous Coward 963441 on his understanding.

You can add to your understanding by recognizing how a demurrage fee on circulating currency and upon accounts of record is (probably) a better mechanism for collecting the fees necessary for printing and administrating the actual costs of money.

Then... add credibility records of people... the ability to hypothecate the promise to create and deliver value in the future is the strong point of this present system. To assure specific performance of contract we need credibility records together with some use of performance bonds. The performance bonds should be deposits of precious metals or other easily divided items of generally accepted value.

We know that a small percentage of all contracts to create and deliver value in the future will fail. A demurrage fee that is set as small percentage over costs of running the system functions as an insurance fee. A small percentage of all money is withdrawn as the contracts to create and deliver value in the future fail...

Not everyone will understand this, but I hope poster AC 963441 will grasp these additional principles.

2 things the human race will have to combine and achieve before we evolve.

if we don't, it will be like a stagnant parasite within us all.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 876442

That sounds exactly like the illuminati plan to take over the whole Earth with their New World Order. Just another ideolog taking the place of the other. "Here's to the new boss, same as the old boss, we don't get fooled again"( the Who)

2 things the human race will have to combine and achieve before we evolve.

if we don't, it will be like a stagnant parasite within us all.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 876442

this has already been decided. The next life/period here on earth after the rapture will be a culture with no money. The rapure that many speak of will be the taking of the less expirienced souls/bad etc, leaving the more wise/Benevolent souls and we will re-organize this next period with no money. we will have a very small government with a roman like representation with senators ony. This time period wont be till 2050 area. There are hard times coming and that is to weed out and basically reboot the stuff that has been going on down here. just giving you a heads up to coming events.

For those people who still buy into the illusion that only gold is the proper medium of exchange I offer this model.

You gold people have already heard from some who point out how little gold there is in the world. Total quantity divided by 6+ billion gives a pretty small number ~less than a gram per human or something...

Anyway, Merrill Jenkins in his book MONEY, THE GREATEST HOAX ON EARTH suggested thin ribbons or threads embedded in plastic.

Taken the next step... Consider the thin gold film material used as spacecraft protection... The gold layer is just a few atoms thick with the carrier plastic film being less than a millimeter thick. These materials can be sliced into narrow ribbons and cut to short lengths and embedded into plastic credit card type material.

Thus, gold can be introduced as direct medium of exchange in micro-gram and milligram weights with the weight stamped and embossed on the face of the plastic card. When the card gets worn from use, just heat the whole thing sufficiently to melt the plastic and the gold which will pool the gold to the bottom. Recycle...

It is one of my postulates that gold deposits in the older version (read Rothbard on Scottish banking) were actually functioning as performance bonds binding upon the bankers. The fear of a run forced them to make their interest bearing contracts moderately extortive and fillable - a moderating influence.

It is impossible for a piece of paper or an electronic entry to physically store value. This implies that these papers, contracts, and computer entries are title instruments to value that is stored elsewhere and by someone else.

Were Silvio Gesell alive today he might ask: "How much is the monthly storage fee on this value being stored on your behalf?"

In geometry fundamental assumptions are made; these assumptions are called "axioms."

If an axiom is written that is in any way - even minor - flawed, then all successive conclusions are false.

The errors in economics are of the axiomatic variety.

The Kondratieff cycle is all about the periodic failure and regrouping of economics. When the breakdown and repair portion of the cycle happens we have an opportunity to completely redesign the system.

The next feature for Loom is very simple but highly useful: the ability to attach a URL to a contact.

Why is this useful? Consider if you will, a world in which Amazon.com has decided to accept payments in Loom. Now here I am, an Amazon customer with a Loom wallet. So here's what I do. I create a contact called "Amazon.com". I attach the URL [link to amazon.com (secure)] to that contact.

Now when I want to go shopping at Amazon, I log into my Loom wallet and click the URL next to my Amazon contact. That takes me into the Amazon site in a new browser window or tab, and it carries my Amazon contact ID along with it.

Now Amazon can use that contact ID as my customer key in their database, and save my order history, reading preferences, and shipping address. Upon checkout, they can debit the funds off of my contact ID as well. All I have to do as a customer is fund that contact with enough money, either before I start shopping or right at checkout time when Amazon tells me the total.

Note that with Loom, a merchant site such as Amazon *never* needs to go redirecting to the Loom site and asking the user to log in there. Amazon just treats the contact ID like a pre-paid debit card.

This should make the merchant payment process extremely easy, and make things very easy for users as well. For one thing, the user doesn't have to type (or copy and paste) the contact ID into the merchant's payment form. That should make it even easier than using a traditional credit or debit card -- but with NONE of the risk of identity theft or unlimited loss.

Some large grass roots organisation (a union, for example) decides to set up a cooperative bank-like operation ("BLO"). This BLO issues "coupons". Technically, this BLO is just a national office with computer capacity and a few employees. There are no branches. Any individual possessing a mobile phone may have a coupon "account" with the BLO. An individual may then borrow a maximum amount of coupons from the BLO. The loan is nearly interest-free, say an interest rate of 0.1% which is only to cover the expenses of the BLO office and computer/network costs. This interest (or perhaps it should be called "rent" since it is in a different currency), while negligible, must be paid in Euros (additionally there may be a negative interest on coupons held, see below). The coupon loan has limited duration, a few months. When the loan expires, the borrower has the right to a renewed loan, but the maximum amount allowed may have been adjusted up or down in relation to the last loan received. More on this below.

All agents (individuals, firms) possessing coupons may use them for transactions with other agents. All transactions are done via mobile phone, using one of the technically proven schemes already in operation in some developing countries. There are no paper coupons in circulation. People and firms offering goods and services will now decide to accept a certain share of coupons in payment, while the rest must still be in Euros. The fraction is decided freely by the seller, and may also be changed at any time with circumstances. The same holds for wages: employers and employees may agree on a certain share of wages being paid in coupons, a share that may be re-negotiated as things develop.

The coupons are pure fiat money. They do not have any mechanism giving an intrinsic value like money issued by a central bank, which ensures this by being the sole currency that may be used to pay taxes.

People will therefore accept coupons in payment only because they believe that others will accept them too. This is a process which may be unstable both ways: confidence building more confidence, or decreasing confidence leading to collapse. By limiting the amount of coupons in circulation, based on feedback from the average acceptance of coupons as a share of payment together with euros, it should be possible to uphold the needed amount of confidence in this means of payment. The amount in circulation may be limited by renewing loans with a lower amount, when earlier loans expire. Then the borrower will have to accept a reduction of the amount in his/hers account. To avoid runaway inflation in coupons, one should probably start the process by issuing few initially, and letting the flow grow based on the observed impact.

Coupons may alternatively be levied with a negative interest of say 12%, following Silvio Gesell's famous proposal. Then loans do not need to be retired. Additional loans are instead issued based on the negative interest flow received by the BLO. The stock of circulating coupons is then constant. Technically, a Gesellian negative interest is easy to implement since all transactions are done electronically.

By introducing coupons like this, it should be possible to exploit a large underused resource that Greece has, unemployed or underemployed people. Enabling them to work will ameliorate the dramatic decrease in living standards for most people, that is today's bleak alternative.

No ! First get rid of the governments. that's what the PTB want for us to have no tradable money--not even those stupid paper tenders.just a chip--that only works if we take our vaccines and GMO and break our quota of rocks per day.

2 things the human race will have to combine and achieve before we evolve.

People think this would be hard. It wouldnt. Everyone would just have to continue on as normal. We could have a math team come up with a currency based on how many hours you work... not what you do. Everyone will get the basics (house food medical) for free.

People would fill jobs based on the community's needs and the individual's ability. This would mean people working not for money, but for the benefit of EVERY SINGLE other person on the planet. Once we have the balance needed to perform efficiently we can build up the communities that have been lacking - like all of africa, n korea, etc. We have the capability, it would just take a huge change in consciousness to do so.

This WHOLE thing is an exercise in the dialectical process to get people to choose sides and create a synthesis.

*The majority of Palastinians are normal every day people, with husbands, wives and children, looking only to feed themselves and live their lives.

*The majority of Israelites are normal every day people, with husbands, wives and children, looking only to feed themselves and live their lives.

This dog and pony show has been created by the power elite/Jesuit/illuminati cabal to sow dissention among people but is run by the powers and principalities that you can never touch.

Don't take the "Palastinian" side.Don't take the "Israelite" side.

Take the human side and say no to playing their game. Your arguing over this shit is exactly what is the intended outcome... along with the deaths of peoples on both sides so that "they" can reap the benefits of our ignorance.

Sometimes the only way to win is to not play the game at all.Quoting: Anonymous Coward 628319

On the Rachel Corrie thread.

Centralized power and centralized money form a symbiotic pair.

you can never touch is untrue. Create a different monetary system and END these problems.

Mutual credit with banking as agency to the people.

If you are among the many who fail to grasp the legal meaning of "agency" then I must recommend you spend some time with an attorney. At the very least a dictionary.

People think this would be hard. It wouldnt. Everyone would just have to continue on as normal. We could have a math team come up with a currency based on how many hours you work... not what you do. Everyone will get the basics (house food medical) for free.

People would fill jobs based on the community's needs and the individual's ability. This would mean people working not for money, but for the benefit of EVERY SINGLE other person on the planet. Once we have the balance needed to perform efficiently we can build up the communities that have been lacking - like all of africa, n korea, etc. We have the capability, it would just take a huge change in consciousness to do so.

Outside the Asylum - of money mad people; written by Jet Graphics, and revised November 4, 2008

MONEY IS:

[1] A medium of exchange

[2] Accounting symbol

[3] Proportional to marketplace

MONEY HAS:

[4] No intrinsic value outside of the marketplace

MONEY IS NOT:

[5] real

MONEY CANNOT:

[6] be saved nor save "value"

[7] be invested, at usury, in a finite money token system

[8] be owned, in the sense that it can be bought and sold

MONEY SHOULD NOT:

[9] be limited or under restriction, save that of the marketplace

[10] be under the control of parasites (government, usurers)

[11] be worshiped

[12] be a goal of one's life

[1,2,3] Money is a medium of exchange that facilitates the creation and trade of usable (surplus) goods and services. It is a mechanism that simplifies trade of different items, services, and volumes. As an accounting symbol, for the value of all goods and services in the marketplace, it must be proportional to that marketplace. If it ceases to be proportional, then someone will suffer inequitable trade. Therefore an equitable money system cannot be scarce, nor have intrinsic value independent of the marketplace, for which it is an abstraction for.******************************************Preface:If you comprehend that usury, socialism, and pauperization are wrong. And if you decide that you do not wish to consent to subjugation as a citizen, obedient to the servant government. Nor do you wish to live as a pauper, dependent upon charity from the public treasury. And you wish to enjoy your Creator's endowment of dominion over the earth, and sovereignty (*Self Rule) over your person, labor and that which you traded your labor for...Now What?

Facts we know:

[] Private property ownership and sovereignty are inseparable. A king without a domain is sovereign over nothing but himself. He needs permission (license) everywhere he goes, lest he trespasses. [] Natural and personal liberty are exercised by American nationals, free inhabitants, domiciled within the U.S.A. [] The constitutional government recognizes the rules of the common law, regarding private property, if the value in question exceeds 20 dollars (gold or silver). [] Private property shall not be taken for public use, without just compensation (lawful money).

Problems we know of:

[] The servant government is bankrupt, and beholden to usurers. [] Constitutional lawful money is scarce, and insufficient to operate as an efficient medium of exchange. [] Usury, Socialism, and other abominations have perverted the servant government, and the people who have submitted to it, via citizenship and national socialism. [] Land and housing costs, denominated in dollars, but are actually in reference to Federal Reserve notes (no par value), are grossly overpriced, and cannot be equitably purchased with lawful money at this time. The exchange rate between worthless notes and lawful money is inequitable. [] The usury and income tax inflated economy is going through a "correction", where a proportion of debtors and unsecured creditors will be dispossessed of their valuable property.

Problems we can expect:

[] The suffering and pain of the "correction" will trigger unpleasant reactions, ranging from individual acts of senseless violence, to organized predation, as people try to stay alive. [] The complex and vulnerable network of international trade that usurers feed upon is tottering. As the recession reduces trade, raises the cost for shipping, reduces the amount of imported goods, fuel, and other necessities, stocks will be depleted over time. Once those stocks are gone, no amount of money will matter, for the marketplace will be bare. [] Fear and panic will trigger irrational behavior, unreasonable demands, and may instigate a draconian backlash (martial law?).

My personal subjective prescription:

A. Educate yourself, ASAP B. Set your goals - whether simple survival, or restoration of lost status, or the creation of long term prosperity. C. Find agreeable folks, who you can cooperate with, and acquire enough land to build a village (preferable defensible). D. Establish enterprises that can produce surplus goods and services, food and necessities, so that you and yours can prosper outside of the money mad society. E. Live a balanced and moderate life, taking time to enjoy living while making a livelihood. F. Accumulate a stock of necessities, sufficient to survive 24 months - just in case. G. And may you find yourself blissfully unaffected by the chaos erupting all around.

Is true wealth a large quantity of money tokens, or a full storehouse?Is true wealth a life locked into mindless labor for the benefit ofothers, whose support you were tricked into providing?Is true wealth a life of unproductive consumption of the goods andservices other people produced?Is true wealth a life of boredom, distraction, petty tantrums and selfdestructive amusements?

Or is true wealth based on enriching yourself, your family andfriends, with the bounty of your prodigious output of goods and services?

And don't forget morality - it may be lawful under the LAW OF THEJUNGLE to prey upon others, but it is not moral under the LAW OF LOVE.

Voluntary charity is a blessing.Involuntary charity is a curse.

Someday, we may awaken to wisdom and honor those who contribute morefor less, sacrifice for the benefit of others, and harmlessly supporttheir right to life by creative and productive activity.

[4] Money, as an accounting system, has no function if there is nothing in the marketplace to buy. Though a market can function without money, money cannot facilitate trade if there is nothing for sale. A sum of money without anything to buy has no value. (Mythical Gilligan's Island parable - Thurston Howell's sum of money cannot buy rescue nor buy anything unless the islanders first find it, make it, and will sell it.)

[5] An accounting system, by which one tracks the market value of items, goods, and services, should not be something from within the marketplace. In fact, if one uses an item taken from the marketplace, a mathematical error will occur. In set theory, if M (money) is proportional to S (sum of all goods / services), making anything from S, will generate a paradox. For this example, if G (gold) is deemed to be the preferred money token, and it is 1% of the whole Sum, we can set up the equation:

G = (.01 S)

BUT

We must now make G have a value proportional to the whole set (S), so that we can trade.

G (proportional to) S.

So 1/10 G can buy 1/10 S.

HOWEVER

Gold, which is 1% of Sum of all, can buy all. Yet G is a subset of S.

G = (.01S), so (0.01S) = S.

One percent of the gold, as "money", can buy all the gold (which represents 1% of S).

See the problem now?

Anything of intrinsic value from within the marketplace cannot be used as money (an abstraction for the marketplace). Especially since the marketplace varies, disproportionate to the item deemed to be money. "Hard Money" results in economic distress from inequitable trade.

[6] If money is a mechanism to account for value, facilitate trade, and is proportional to the marketplace, you cannot "save" it. Taking money out of circulation only prevents it from its function - moving goods and services equitably. In fact, the more money taken out of circulation by hoarding / saving, the less trade can occur, since there is not enough money tokens to facilitate trade. By making money scarce (disproportionate to the marketplace), the sellers cannot sell, or must accept LESS money. If they cannot sell, they suffer. And if have to accept less money, they cannot equitably trade (nor pay outstanding bills). Money, as an abstraction for value, cannot store value, no more than one can save 4 hours of a plumber's labor, nor compel a storehouse to fill with a harvest by holding money in a vault.

[7] Though we might think we're "saving" money when we deposit it with bankers (usurers), buy bonds (usury) or "invest" it in stock corporations, for interest (usury), we are not. The money is put into circulation, facilitating trade. The usurer charges a fee, in money, for the use of that money,and pays a portion to the investor.

However, if the money token system is finite (as is precious metal coin), aggregate usury is impossible to pay. The sum of principle and interest owed exceeds the whole set of available money tokens. A proportion of debtors will default, simply because the money does not exist. And they will lose their valuable property pledged as collateral on the debt. That is why usury is proscribed as an abomination, and denounced by almost all religions (except Satanism).

When we're told that it's "wise to invest", mathematics says we are unwise.

For example, if "everybody" invested 10% of their money, within one time unit of usury, the resulting debt would be impossible to discharge.

To pay the usury, the money supply (S) would have to grow 1%. If the supply is static or cannot grow at the necessary rate, investors will be unable to be paid. Debtors will default. Someone will suffer.

This problem is compounded when the money token is borrowed into existence at usury. Each unit created imposes an obligation for more money, which, in turn, can only be created by greater debt. Ergo, debt-credit money tokens are catastrophic tools that destroy productive societies for the benefit of parasites and predators.

[* special note : in America's case, the bimetallic standard was another disaster in the making. A simple solution would be to make the unit dollar a silver coin, and designate a gold coin as an eagle, without stipulating any proportionality, by law. That way, the market value of the silver to gold would not create havoc. Contracts payable in dollars might be negotiated with eagles, but that would be a private agreement, not imposed by statutory law.]

[8] There are many people who believe that money must have an intrinsic value, such as precious metal (gold, silver, platinum) or it violates religious law. However, I sincerely doubt that God would impose a money token system that cannot function equitably. The marketplace of goods and services can always grow larger from (a) rising population of laborers, (b) tools that multiply the labor, and (c) automation that produces goods and services without additional input of labor. If the money token system is finite, composed of scarce precious metal coin, it will impose chaos. The harder you work or produce, the less money you earn. If you are in debt, the harder you work, or produce, the less you earn, and thus cannot pay your creditor. Scarce money is a recipe for economic disaster. In fact, scarcity of money drives demand for credit, at usury, offered by bankers.

Therefore, a sound money system (honest accounting) cannot be composed of any "thing" that can be bought or sold in the marketplace, if equitable trade is to exist. It would be as absurd as charging a fee to make each tick mark on a tablet, used to keep score. (Imagine playing "MONOPOLY" and you had to pay rent for the use of paper money.)

[9] For a "free market" to truly exist, the medium of exchange has to be free to grow / shrink in proportion to it. If any disproportionality exists, either the seller or the buyer will be cheated. Those who can manipulate the illusion of abstract money can enrich themselves at the expense of others. Mankind has suffered from the predation of usurers for millennia. And we still willingly cooperate with those who prey upon us. Worse, we are indoctrinated to copy them, and debase ourselves, and "run with the pack". And it's no surprise when folks are "thrown to the wolves!"

One way that the supply of money tokens can adjust is when producers / laborers of new goods and services can issue private promissory notes (ex: coupons) denominated in that which they can do, have or produce. A farmer can issue notes denominated in harvest, or animals, or products. Laborers can issue notes denominated in hours of labor or specific services. Enterprises can issue notes, denominated in that which they offer. A restaurant can issue notes, denominated in meals, or other services.

When the note is tendered to the maker, it is extinguished when the trade is completed. If an entrepreneur needs to purchase goods or services, but has no "money", he can emit promises (notes) to capitalize. He need not beg for debt-credit, at usury, from a bankster. He then discharges his promises, when his enterprise is up and running, without the burden of usury, nor the requirement to fight for a share of scarce money tokens.

[10] A money system should not be under the control of parasites (government, usurers), who produce no goods nor services. A government may offer its services for oversight and offering recourse and remedy, in the pursuit of justice (giving everyman his due).

A private promissory note money token system, by itself, would probably be limited in scope to a local community, where the people knew the credit worthiness of the note makers.

For a larger marketplace, a widely circulating note / money token, is necessary. A bank, acting as a note warehouse, may be one solution. A note could be tendered, discounted by the bank, and bank notes given in exchange. There would be no pressure to create new money tokens, because there would be no usury, nor compound interest. The bank can either tender the note for discharge (making profit from the discount) or sell it to another.

[11] Obviously, we've been taught to worship money, chase after it, be persuaded to act against our better natures, by it. That must change. And the first place change occurs is within each individual.

[12] We must all awaken from the nightmare where money was the goal of one's life work. True prosperity is the creation, exchange, and the time to enjoy those necessary goods and services we produce. Any other activity is counterproductive, including conquest, usury, predation, theft, and parasitism.

Final Note: One of the easiest ways to 'enslave' people (compel them to work at inequitable compensation) is to obligate them to pay money tokens, especially when those money tokens are scarce. Governments and usurers rely upon that fact, when they tax us. Without scarce money tokens, there would be no demand for the bankster's "service" - extension of credit at usury. Without the obligation to pay taxes, in money, the burden of government would be lessened.