As a person who can appreciate Caroline for what she does well, I thought she turned in two excellent performances. Never mind the URs, edge calls or scores...I enjoyed her skating. I thought her SP was good and she really brought the house down in her spiral during the FS.

Caroline is never going to have the speed, difficult combos or basics necessary to be at the top of this sport. It's a sad fact but it's true. Still, I appreciated what she did here, that she went out and fought and stayed upright. For her, that's an accomplishment. The USFSA is basically showing her the door and whether or not she chooses to use it is up to her. She's given me a number of wonderful programs and moments over the years and I'll always remember her for that.

Caroline's jumps are just not good. She still has no spring, no height and no ice-coverage. The lack of spring and height is why she cannot complete her rotations. And then there's the mulekick flutz. I also noted that as she skated, snow sprayed from her skates. This is indicative of poor basic skating. Zhang was not robbed.

I'm not a skater, so I don't have the eye to notice details like the snow spraying from her skates. Thanks for pointing this out. May I ask how she came to acquire this bad habit? Was it her early coaching? I know that I've always heard about her slowness (one GS member who saw her live years ago said that it looked as if she was walking on the ice), and it's sad to me that she would lack such a basic component of skating. Smaller jumps denote a lack of a certain kind of physical ability, and lack of flexibility is another innate body trait that often can't be overcome, though neither of these will keep an otherwise good skater from excelling. But poor skating skills are not related to physical ability. They're related to training. That comes from outside the skater; one can't expect a ten-year-old to know the right way to use the blades.

Is this an approach that once learned can't be unlearned? Caroline is now studying with Karen Kwan and Peter Oppegard, both of whom have strong skating skills. What can they do, or what have they left undone, in this matter?

I'm asking because I enjoy Caroline so much and hate to think that at the ripe old age of twenty or so, she's done for.

^^The majority of Caroline's problems do stem from the way she was taught to skate and jump. I believe she was without a coach for a while when she was young and learned some of the technique herself...or something like that. I do blame her early coaches though. Her technique in all of her jumps was terrible and they didn't begin to fix it until too late. Her basics are another major problem...all of those things are ingrained at the beginning and it's difficult to unlearn them which is why her rate of improvement is so slow. She's doing better in her jumps but it's obvious from the judges' marks that landing jumps won't be enough to get her out of the basement.

saw video she was cheated out in long and short, not take away from gracie
she deserved the scores.
this shouldnt be brought up yearly, why only federation will appreciated true honest answer.
for me they should apologize to public for picked overlooked mistake making skating.

The reason she - and others - have this bad technique (from my very nonexpert opinion) is due to the fact that after Michelle and Tara hit the scene and landed on top at young ages ALL little girls were pushed to excell early = forget technique, it's not important now that figures are gone. Now technique is important again, but the formidable years of their training gave them bad basics that when pressured they fall back on.

Caroline was slow as a novice and junior and a senior, and was rewarded for it early on, which gave no incentive to fix things. She's playing catch up, it's not fair in some ways, but that's what's happened to many skaters in this system.

The reason she - and others - have this bad technique (from my very nonexpert opinion) is due to the fact that after Michelle and Tara hit the scene and landed on top at young ages ALL little girls were pushed to excell early = forget technique, it's not important now that figures are gone. Now technique is important again, but the formidable years of their training gave them bad basics that when pressured they fall back on.

Caroline was slow as a novice and junior and a senior, and was rewarded for it early on, which gave no incentive to fix things. She's playing catch up, it's not fair in some ways, but that's what's happened to many skaters in this system.

ITA with this. The technique for rotating triples at 13 with a little girl's body is completely different than the technique needed for success as a woman. And you're right about Caroline being rewarded early on; she was dominant as a junior in 06-07 and had a fine season as a first year senior in 07-08.

I see someone like Julia L now, who jumps in the same way Caroline did, and I just know she is going to have the same problems as Zhang did.

ITA with this. The technique for rotating triples at 13 with a little girl's body is completely different than the technique needed for success as a woman. And you're right about Caroline being rewarded early on; she was dominant as a junior in 06-07 and had a fine season as a first year senior in 07-08.

I see someone like Julia L now, who jumps in the same way Caroline did, and I just know she is going to have the same problems as Zhang did.

Thanks to you all for dealing with this issue for me. In this respect, referring back to the title of the thread, I do feel sorry for Caroline. It's accurate to say that she was doomed from her earliest years by incorrect or inadequate coaching. I'm sorry to hear that Julia L. shows some of Caroline's early faults, because that doesn't bode well for her in the future. It's a plain waste of talent.

I think it says more about Alyssa's longevity than anything. Czisny was always hyped since 2004 as "she could be one of the best in the world if she just hit her jumps" but that was all talk and the potential was never realized for years. Then she kinda popped out of nowhere and has been hot/cold ever since. She's America's version of Carolina Kostner in that sense.

Czisny is a "late bloomer" and that's very unusual for an American skater, at least these days. It's typical for the American lady to be a flash in the pan, make a big splash and then disappear/vacate soon after (think Lipinski, Meissner), or to show potential but never realize it (think Nam, Nikodinov). It remains to be seen where CZhang fits into all this- as it stands, she's another one that got away- but on the upside, she is still rather young...young enough, anyway, to be in the mix for 2018 if she ever pulled a Czisny. As it stands now, though, she is out of it.

Unfortunately, Caroline's career is closer to Nam or Nikidinov's at this point, or Bebe Liang, or an underscored Alissa.

Is there any way that Caroline can finish top 3 at Nationals next year?

ITA with this. The technique for rotating triples at 13 with a little girl's body is completely different than the technique needed for success as a woman. And you're right about Caroline being rewarded early on; she was dominant as a junior in 06-07 and had a fine season as a first year senior in 07-08.

I see someone like Julia L now, who jumps in the same way Caroline did, and I just know she is going to have the same problems as Zhang did.

I actually think Julia L has solid technique on her jumps (other than the 2A). She doesn't have the mule kick Caroline had. She does rely on her speed in the jumps in that she doesn't get great height but she is just over 5 feet tall so how much height she could expect to get is questionable.

Thanks to you all for dealing with this issue for me. In this respect, referring back to the title of the thread, I do feel sorry for Caroline. It's accurate to say that she was doomed from her earliest years by incorrect or inadequate coaching. I'm sorry to hear that Julia L. shows some of Caroline's early faults, because that doesn't bode well for her in the future. It's a plain waste of talent.

When it was announced that Zhang was moving up to the senior GP events when she was 14, I commented at the time that she had a lot of technical issues that should be dealt with before she moved up to seniors. I thought she should stay in Juniors and work on her jump technique and her basic skating and chuckie told me I was out of my mind. The girl scored hirer than Asada and Kim had as juniors and it would be a waste of time for her to spend another day in Juniors. When she made the GPF in her first season, she appeared to be headed to phenom status, and then she grew, and all of the bad technique chickens came home to roost.

After Caroline's short program scores came up, I heard lots of boo's from the audience.
And after her freeskate, the audience rose to their feet and applauded.

Somebody needs to tell those people about her rotations.

Check out the thread for the ladies SP in the US Nationals section. Starting on page 29, there are numerous GS posters who watched and rewached some of the UR and downgraded jumps and don't agree with the ruling. Many felt there should have been one UR, not multiple Ur's and a downgrade. I have heard that some of the judges for the SP programs disagreed with the tech controller on these calls, but the controllers decision stood.

The USFSA is basically showing her the door and whether or not she chooses to use it is up to her. She's given me a number of wonderful programs and moments over the years and I'll always remember her for that.

Yes, Caroline has brought several houses down in her career.
And if the USFSA is showing her the door, they should also tell the audience to stop boo'ing the judges, and stay in their seats when she skates.