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The Rational Response Squad is a group of atheist activists who impact society by changing the way we view god belief. This site is a haven for those who are pushing back against the norm, and a place for believers of gods to have their beliefs exposed as false should they want to try their hand at confronting us.

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Belief in afterlife made me do the "right thing"

Someone came to me and told me "oh I would like to take this product. Your friend upstairs recomended it to me and I thought about it, decide to take it"

So I put the product in the bag and charged her. Bear in mind we earn in commission base.

Another colleague who was next to me said: "cool! Don't say anything you keep it! you made the sell"

I started to have a moral problem though. I remember having some thoughts about it for some time.

I knew for SURE anyone on my team that was in my place would keep the sell for him/herself and get the money. Also knew for sure that if I stayed quiet I would kept the money with no problems. But I also know that I'm not just like anyone.

What turned me around was also knowing that for a complete happy afterlife I would have to put altruism and love in my decisions even those hidden that no one would know about or had no punishment.

So I went up, told her everything and said I wanted to split the commission with her. She agreed.

Some hours later she went to the manager and was decided that she would take the whole commission because she argued that she alone persuaded the client to the buying.

If I went back in time to the same situation, I would do the same thing.

This is a true story.

If I lived on a purposeless existence I would be a Machiavelli. But I'm more like Kant in ethics. You can only rationalize western values if you have a purpose beyond your finite desires. Moral evolution can only explain why. Not the "qualia". Whether there's an afterlife or not can have an impact on daily decisions.

I believe there are tons of "believers" that actually don't believe anything and are much like atheists. It's only fear, nurture or social missinformation that makes them come here and argue the Bible with you guys.

True love is one of those things that you have to take a real effort to do with no guarantees. It's not the easiest thing to do. Now for many the "spoils of war" are way better than the that personal warm feeling.

______________________________________________________________"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies

Some hours later she went to the manager and was decided that she would take the whole commission because she argued that she alone persuaded the client to the buying.

Wow. what a bitch.

I think you don't give yourself enough credit Teralek. I suspect that you would do exactly the same thing even if you knew for absolute certain there was no afterlife. You are simply a good guy, and would probably be wracked with guilt for ripping her off- even though she apparently doesn't have the same mindset. I spent a good portion of my life in commission sales and have found myself in similar situations where I could have screwed a coworker out of commissions. I don't because when it happens to me (and it has) it pisses me off, unfortunately there are many people out there who simply are inconsiderate. Almost makes me wish there is an afterlife.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X

Human behavior was not handed down by a cosmic bearded man with a magic wand. Human actions are a spectrum of evolution in BOTH good and bad behavior. Humans do the right thing, not all the time, but do the right thing out of compassion and empathy, not superstition.

I do not believe in an after life or a god by any name. I have, and most, if not all of the atheists here, have multiple times in their lives, done good for others. But we are not good because we are atheists, we are capable of doing good because we are ALL part of the same evolution that can produce compasion and kindness.

I have donated food. I have donated my time to the Red Cross. I have donated money to charity and clothing to charity. I have picked up money off the ground knowing that the person who dropped it didn't see it, and gave it back. A god did not tell me to do that.

And why would you need a god watching you in order to behave? Do you do the right thing only because you fear punishment? Or do you do the right thing even when no one is watching?

Children need a regulatory parent, but as an adult the thought of a sky daddy bribing you or threating you to me is a childish concept.

Bottom line, you don't need to believe , especially in things you cant prove, to do good or be good.

"Faith is believing in things you know ain't so" Mark Twain.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."ObamaCheck out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37

If I knew for a fact that someone took my commission, I'd make it a goal to return the favour. Otherwise I'd go by regular policy, whether to share or forfeit the commission.

Thoughts of an afterlife hold no place in the equation. I'd do it because I'd want the same done for me. Because doing it a few times shows you're trustworthy and decent in this, your only life. Not because of some vague and irrelevant fear of an afterlife.

I agree with darwinian moral. But evolutive ethics does not explain everything. Most people are not "that good". I know for a fact the world is full of snakes... and part time snakes.

My point is. Everything influences the way you are including beliefs. You are not just your darwinic instincs, you are your reason, experience and knowledge, too

______________________________________________________________"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies

Why do even consider selling stuff to be moral? You're not really working, producing anything of value. You just overcharge the customer and deceive them about your commission. If you were honest and moral, you'd tell the customer how they could obtain the product wholesale.

Why doesn't God torture you for all eternity for ripping people off and getting money for just standing around?

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen

Why do even consider selling stuff to be moral? You're not really working, producing anything of value. You just overcharge the customer and deceive them about your commission. If you were honest and moral, you'd tell the customer how they could obtain the product wholesale.

Why doesn't God torture you for all eternity for ripping people off and getting money for just standing around?

Hey ma man! That is not the point here!

I completely agree with you. You got a job for me which is more moral? If you do please tell me, I go work for you!

I had a job as a sales rep. for some years, got fucking tired of it. Changed, now I'm working on another one which is basically a service I very much enjoy doing. Problem is the company I'm working for "forces" me to sell products as part of the service... so I have to try to sell them... even knowing that they can get it cheaper elsewhere. I don't like it. I have to work though to pay the rent and food... internet. Fucking sales are everywhere nowadays!!

BTW! God does not torture people, you sure didn't hear that from me!

______________________________________________________________"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies

Human behavior was not handed down by a cosmic bearded man with a magic wand. Human actions are a spectrum of evolution in BOTH good and bad behavior. Humans do the right thing, not all the time, but do the right thing out of compassion and empathy, not superstition.

I do not believe in an after life or a god by any name. I have, and most, if not all of the atheists here, have multiple times in their lives, done good for others. But we are not good because we are atheists, we are capable of doing good because we are ALL part of the same evolution that can produce compasion and kindness.

I have donated food. I have donated my time to the Red Cross. I have donated money to charity and clothing to charity. I have picked up money off the ground knowing that the person who dropped it didn't see it, and gave it back. A god did not tell me to do that.

And why would you need a god watching you in order to behave? Do you do the right thing only because you fear punishment? Or do you do the right thing even when no one is watching?

Children need a regulatory parent, but as an adult the thought of a sky daddy bribing you or threating you to me is a childish concept.

Bottom line, you don't need to believe , especially in things you cant prove, to do good or be good.

"Faith is believing in things you know ain't so" Mark Twain.

I second that. I 've done plenty of things for people, in this life, that no one will ever know about. Bottom line is, I didn't do it for good credit with the "fictional spirits) good karma, or for any other reason other than I don't like seeing someone suffer or to fall on hard times.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno

Yes, I know all great dictators get their followers to do the dirty work.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen

Yes, what a bitch. Next time you can scam her Most probably your goodness is wasted on her and she sees it as a weakness. If it would get worse, remember, you are not obliged to let others shit on your head and it is also in their interest if you don't let them do more harm to others. (to you, for example)

But seriously, I approve of what you did, but such a virtue may be a burden. You might as well have some benefit from it. Such people should go into politics or local administration. I suspect some politicians had initially good intentions but later got corrupted by the sheer weight of millions, billions and peer pressure. So if you are incorruptible, demonstrate it somehow publically and be elected into an office.

But seriously, I approve of what you did, but such a virtue may be a burden. You might as well have some benefit from it. Such people should go into politics or local administration. I suspect some politicians had initially good intentions but later got corrupted by the sheer weight of millions, billions and peer pressure. So if you are incorruptible, demonstrate it somehow publically and be elected into an office.

Good point Luminon.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno

Yes, I know all great dictators get their followers to do the dirty work.

Yeah whatever!

Luminon wrote:

Yes, what a bitch. Next time you can scam her Most probably your goodness is wasted on her and she sees it as a weakness. If it would get worse, remember, you are not obliged to let others shit on your head and it is also in their interest if you don't let them do more harm to others. (to you, for example)

But seriously, I approve of what you did, but such a virtue may be a burden. You might as well have some benefit from it. Such people should go into politics or local administration. I suspect some politicians had initially good intentions but later got corrupted by the sheer weight of millions, billions and peer pressure. So if you are incorruptible, demonstrate it somehow publically and be elected into an office.

Ok I know this is kind of hard to understand but I really think we are all the same and I thrive to be a better person everyday because I'm never good enough to my standards. There is a bond of love between all of us.

This girl is actually a friend, though she did this. She actually told me one day to my surprise that she thinks I'm quite unnoticed, unfairly by other women because I'm really a rare guy who treats women very well.

I may not see her again though as she's from Maryland maybe I'll pay her a visit someday.

I'll be my own judge when I realize first hand the bond between people when I die physically. I know it is a burden sometimes now but I will get the growth rewards of it afterwards. In spiritual life there is nothing hidden, no thoughts, no feelings, nothing. Even unknown deeds that you did will be known. This is all very hard to grasp but our perspective will be radically different in the afterlife. The best way to put it into words is to see first person accounts of near death experiences.

But the point of this topic is... there is a very good chance I would've acted differently if I had other beliefs. Most people act different, most people have a different belief than I.

BTW! coincidentially I had a talk with my family recently because I argued that I'm most likely incorruptible! LOL

______________________________________________________________"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies

I'll be my own judge when I realize first hand the bond between people when I die physically. I know it is a burden sometimes now but I will get the growth rewards of it afterwards. In spiritual life there is nothing hidden, no thoughts, no feelings, nothing. Even unknown deeds that you did will be known. This is all very hard to grasp but our perspective will be radically different in the afterlife. The best way to put it into words is to see first person accounts of near death experiences.

But the point of this topic is... there is a very good chance I would've acted differently if I had other beliefs. Most people act different, most people have a different belief than I.

BTW! coincidentially I had a talk with my family recently because I argued that I'm most likely incorruptible! LOL

There is no evidence of any such afterlife existing. If your incorruptible for the simple sake of eternal bliss, then I feel sorry for you. I don't lie, cheat or steal from anyone, for the same reason that you do, it is not within my nature.

Neurologists and psychologists are already making headway for the chemical components in the brain that can make up sociopathic behavior. Meaning that it might be quite possible that genetic pre-dispositions are at play with some of our traits. So, did god design them that way ? Or was it a mistake along the evolutionary processes ?

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno

If your incorruptible for the simple sake of eternal bliss, then I feel sorry for you.

I don't.

harleysportster wrote:

I don't lie, cheat or steal from anyone, for the same reason that you do, it is not within my nature.

Good for you! Everyone is the best guy in the world. I'm sure that if she posted here or if the lady who owes me money posted here they would be great people too!

harleysportster wrote:

Neurologists and psychologists are already making headway for the chemical components in the brain that can make up sociopathic behavior.

There is a long way between sociaopathy and just being plain altruist when you don't need to be. I'm sure my whole team who is composed of 20 or so people would have stay quiet and kept the commission and they are not sociopaths. Even if I kept the commission to myslef I wasn't cheating anyone... but I thought it would be fair to split it. She and the manager didn't think so. In a phisicalist world I would do best if I ketp it.

harleysportster wrote:

Meaning that it might be quite possible that genetic pre-dispositions are at play with some of our traits. So, did god design them that way ? Or was it a mistake along the evolutionary processes ?

Ok I understand that this being an activist atheist forum you guys tend to have some sort of God paranoia. For countless times now when I'm talking about subjects like free will or ethics you come and mention God. I don't need God to defend my thesis, not even here. Forget about God, imagine that he doesn't exist

Again! Once more I repeat I agree with evolutionary behavior but saying that it explains every single choice is stating that we are merely mindless zombies with no opinion, independent and original thought. We can't think. I don't even know why we argue all the time here, it's pointless... we are not in control of anything.

That's not the whole story! Our behavior is dictated by genes and nurture. I would argue that the soul which is not physical as we know it also has a role on your personality traits, but that's just me... that's way too radical for you guys

Point being, I'm sure my beliefs play a role on who I am.

______________________________________________________________"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies

I don't lie, cheat or steal from anyone, for the same reason that you do, it is not within my nature.

Good for you! Everyone is the best guy in the world. I'm sure that if she posted here or if the lady who owes me money posted here they would be great people too!

That's not the whole story! Our behavior is dictated by genes and nurture. I would argue that the soul which is not physical as we know it also has a role on your personality traits, but that's just me... that's way too radical for you guys .

I never said that I was the best guy in the world, nor did I imply that I was not with faults. By the way, whether people that you are the most incorruptible person that you know, does not make you the most wonderful being on Earth either. It just means that someone gave you some praise and you felt the need to brag about it.

Now, I don't need to tell anyone about what I do or don't do. Actions speak a whole lot louder than words. If I help a pedestrian by the side of the road, I would feel no need to come here and say "HEY EVERYBODY, I DID THE RIGHT THING BECAUSE I AM A RADICAL ATHEIST WITH GOD PARANOIA !,". I am no more paranoid about god, than I am worried about santa claus or the tooth fairy.

As far as nature vs. nurture goes, that is an age old debate that we have yet to fully know. If all the psychiatrists and psychologists, that have written countless books and articles about it have not arrived at the answer, then I know that I can't.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno

BTW! coincidentially I had a talk with my family recently because I argued that I'm most likely incorruptible! LOL

How strange that family might say something like that.

Short of very dysfunctional and abusive families, I don't know of too many families that are not going to have a complimentary and loving view of one of their own.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno

BTW! coincidentially I had a talk with my family recently because I argued that I'm most likely incorruptible! LOL

How strange that family might say something like that.

Short of very dysfunctional and abusive families, I don't know of too many families that are not going to have a complimentary and loving view of one of their own.

Sometimes I wonder if my english is that bad or what... It was I who said it not they!

______________________________________________________________"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies

I never said that I was the best guy in the world, nor did I imply that I was not with faults. By the way, whether people that you are the most incorruptible person that you know, does not make you the most wonderful being on Earth either. It just means that someone gave you some praise and you felt the need to brag about it.

Now, I don't need to tell anyone about what I do or don't do. Actions speak a whole lot louder than words. If I help a pedestrian by the side of the road, I would feel no need to come here and say "HEY EVERYBODY, I DID THE RIGHT THING BECAUSE I AM A RADICAL ATHEIST WITH GOD PARANOIA !,". I am no more paranoid about god, than I am worried about santa claus or the tooth fairy.

As far as nature vs. nurture goes, that is an age old debate that we have yet to fully know. If all the psychiatrists and psychologists, that have written countless books and articles about it have not arrived at the answer, then I know that I can't.

... sigh... you miss the point... this is not about you specifically. I don't know you... I'm not bragging about anything. the OP is about the account of an action from which I intend to prove that beliefs also shape your behavior - this seems plain obvious to me. What I meant was we all know the world is full of snakes but everyone says he/she's a nice guy. You never see anyone admiting his own bitchness.

This is like those inquiries about porn. Everyone sees it but no one confirms.

______________________________________________________________"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies

"Depart from me, ye cursed into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels"

because, those on the left did not feed those who were hungry, clothe those who were naked et al....

So essentially you are in fear of being cursed by the Jesus into damnation in everlasting fire so under threat you do kindness to others.

Teralek wrote:

Some time ago I was at a stand selling some products.

Someone came to me and told me "oh I would like to take this product. Your friend upstairs recomended it to me and I thought about it, decide to take it"

So I put the product in the bag and charged her. Bear in mind we earn in commission base.

Another colleague who was next to me said: "cool! Don't say anything you keep it! you made the sell"

I started to have a moral problem though. I remember having some thoughts about it for some time.

I knew for SURE anyone on my team that was in my place would keep the sell for him/herself and get the money. Also knew for sure that if I stayed quiet I would kept the money with no problems. But I also know that I'm not just like anyone.

What turned me around was also knowing that for a complete happy afterlife I would have to put altruism and love in my decisions even those hidden that no one would know about or had no punishment.

So I went up, told her everything and said I wanted to split the commission with her. She agreed.

Some hours later she went to the manager and was decided that she would take the whole commission because she argued that she alone persuaded the client to the buying.

If I went back in time to the same situation, I would do the same thing.

This is a true story.

Many people are selfish self-centered individuals. People like your co-worker will eventually cut the limb off on the branch they are sitting upon, or IOW, they will crash into a brick wall at a high rate of speed.

They will burn enough bridges that they will become isolated and a pariah unto others.

An afterlife is not required for such.

Teralek wrote:

If I lived on a purposeless existence I would be a Machiavelli. But I'm more like Kant in ethics. You can only rationalize western values if you have a purpose beyond your finite desires. Moral evolution can only explain why. Not the "qualia". Whether there's an afterlife or not can have an impact on daily decisions.

In your case, you are freely admitting that you live in fear of the consequences of your actions in the real world will result in severe punishment in the unproved afterlife. Hence you attempt to do what you think is the right thing to ass kiss the Jesus so he lets you into the heavenly cloud place.

A very poor reason for being kind and considerate to others.

Rather, people are the most important thing in the world, this world, not the fantasy place you hope for in the myths and storytales.

Teralek wrote:

I believe there are tons of "believers" that actually don't believe anything and are much like atheists. It's only fear, nurture or social missinformation that makes them come here and argue the Bible with you guys.

I think you over generalize here. "Believers" look at the storytales in many different ways. You seem to be of the James persuasion, see James 2:14-26

Others that also believe in the Jesus myths think all they must do is believe and be baptized. Or, Love the god and your neighbor as yourself. Or with your last gasp of air, ask the Jesus for forgiveness for all the evil you have done.

Why the "believers" come here to argue is probably that we may irritate them by simply existing. Some no doubt wish for the good old days when they could simply stone us to death or burn us at the stake.

But alas, these actions are frowned upon in the modern world.

So, instead, they come here to confront us with their beliefs in myths, fantasy and Sci-Fi.

If "believers" repeat over and over again, we are going to burn forever in fire, it perhaps makes them feel so much better about their own lives.

After all, y'all think you are possibly going to be saved and rewarded, (I use think here, because according to the myths you cannot know). But y'all somehow know for sure we all are going to burn forever.

All this from morphed Jewish beliefs in a make believe god that originated either in Egypt or from the myths of Palestine.

Teralek wrote:

True love is one of those things that you have to take a real effort to do with no guarantees. It's not the easiest thing to do. Now for many the "spoils of war" are way better than the that personal warm feeling.

I take it you consider "true love" to be the consideration one should give to others, unless of course they pull out a hand gun and start shooting at you.

If you work in the retail trade for commission, you are in essence a mercenary being paid for winning battles.

As mentioned by others, you are deceiving yourself about doing the right thing by participating in the game.

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.

"Depart from me, ye cursed into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels"

because, those on the left did not feed those who were hungry, clothe those who were naked et al....

So essentially you are in fear of being cursed by the Jesus into damnation in everlasting fire so under threat you do kindness to others.

Nope, for some strange reason most people here think I give ANY credit to the Bible... when I couldn't care less what the Bible says... I only fear to be ignorant. Ignorance is the mother of all evils.

Before you mention let me tell you that I also don't give much importance to other "sacred" texts like the Koran or the Bhagavad Gita. They are nice literary works with some touching passages and some philosophical ideas but that's all they are.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Teralek wrote:

Some time ago I was at a stand selling some products.

Someone came to me and told me "oh I would like to take this product. Your friend upstairs recomended it to me and I thought about it, decide to take it"

So I put the product in the bag and charged her. Bear in mind we earn in commission base.

Another colleague who was next to me said: "cool! Don't say anything you keep it! you made the sell"

I started to have a moral problem though. I remember having some thoughts about it for some time.

I knew for SURE anyone on my team that was in my place would keep the sell for him/herself and get the money. Also knew for sure that if I stayed quiet I would kept the money with no problems. But I also know that I'm not just like anyone.

What turned me around was also knowing that for a complete happy afterlife I would have to put altruism and love in my decisions even those hidden that no one would know about or had no punishment.

So I went up, told her everything and said I wanted to split the commission with her. She agreed.

Some hours later she went to the manager and was decided that she would take the whole commission because she argued that she alone persuaded the client to the buying.

If I went back in time to the same situation, I would do the same thing.

This is a true story.

Many people are selfish self-centered individuals. People like your co-worker will eventually cut the limb off on the branch they are sitting upon, or IOW, they will crash into a brick wall at a high rate of speed.

They will burn enough bridges that they will become isolated and a pariah unto others.

An afterlife is not required for such.

Actually I think snakes go very far in their professional life. Snakes often take power positions.

I think that this colleague I'm speaking of is not a bad person at all... if you only met my manager... Oh Jesus!

The secret is simple and was taught by Machiavelli - "It's the best to be a snake in life as long as everyone thinks you're a lamb" - something like this.

I can show you some research saying this.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Teralek wrote:

If I lived on a purposeless existence I would be a Machiavelli. But I'm more like Kant in ethics. You can only rationalize western values if you have a purpose beyond your finite desires. Moral evolution can only explain why. Not the "qualia". Whether there's an afterlife or not can have an impact on daily decisions.

In your case, you are freely admitting that you live in fear of the consequences of your actions in the real world will result in severe punishment in the unproved afterlife. Hence you attempt to do what you think is the right thing to ass kiss the Jesus so he lets you into the heavenly cloud place.

A very poor reason for being kind and considerate to others.

Rather, people are the most important thing in the world, this world, not the fantasy place you hope for in the myths and storytales.

Ok imagine the following situation: I know someone with AIDS and I run from this person, reject her because in my ignorance I think AIDS is as contagious as the flu. When I find out that it is perfectly safe to give a hug to someone with AIDS I feel bad for the way I treated this person. AM I feeling bad because someone is punishing me?! No. I'm judging myself, that's all that will happen in the "unproven" afterlife.I already explain what I believe briefly in post #12

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Teralek wrote:

I believe there are tons of "believers" that actually don't believe anything and are much like atheists. It's only fear, nurture or social missinformation that makes them come here and argue the Bible with you guys.

I think you over generalize here. "Believers" look at the storytales in many different ways. You seem to be of the James persuasion, see James 2:14-26

Others that also believe in the Jesus myths think all they must do is believe and be baptized. Or, Love the god and your neighbor as yourself. Or with your last gasp of air, ask the Jesus for forgiveness for all the evil you have done.

Why the "believers" come here to argue is probably that we may irritate them by simply existing. Some no doubt wish for the good old days when they could simply stone us to death or burn us at the stake.

But alas, these actions are frowned upon in the modern world.

So, instead, they come here to confront us with their beliefs in myths, fantasy and Sci-Fi.

If "believers" repeat over and over again, we are going to burn forever in fire, it perhaps makes them feel so much better about their own lives.

After all, y'all think you are possibly going to be saved and rewarded, (I use think here, because according to the myths you cannot know). But y'all somehow know for sure we all are going to burn forever.

All this from morphed Jewish beliefs in a make believe god that originated either in Egypt or from the myths of Palestine.

Quote from the Bible again... why?... I dont understand... This is the God paranoia I'm talking about. Implying things I didn't say... this straw man argument is quite week to my original point which no one refuted satisfactory until now.I know tons and tons of believers that say one thing and do another. Evangelicals have a bullet proof way to get out of this though. They say we are all sinners and it's unavoidable to do wrong and hurt others so don't mind too much about it. You only need to believe in Jesus and you are automatically saved.I actually believe that we will meet all in heaven. "Burn forever in fire" is nonsense

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Teralek wrote:

True love is one of those things that you have to take a real effort to do with no guarantees. It's not the easiest thing to do. Now for many the "spoils of war" are way better than the that personal warm feeling.

I take it you consider "true love" to be the consideration one should give to others, unless of course they pull out a hand gun and start shooting at you.

If you work in the retail trade for commission, you are in essence a mercenary being paid for winning battles.

As mentioned by others, you are deceiving yourself about doing the right thing by participating in the game.

Well actually I'm a follower of Gandhi and Tolstoy philosophy of pacifism, extreme pacifism. Even if when confronted I may not act as a pacifist. But pacifism is the right thing to do yes.

As I already mention to EXC I agree with you regarding retail. If you read my response in post #6 you have more details about that.

______________________________________________________________"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies

Ok I know this is kind of hard to understand but I really think we are all the same and I thrive to be a better person everyday because I'm never good enough to my standards. There is a bond of love between all of us.

Well, that's one way of looking at things. Another way is to see we're all different and when we figure each other out, we help each other. (or theoretically misuse this knowledge, but you are right, there is this bond of love)

Teralek wrote:

This girl is actually a friend, though she did this. She actually told me one day to my surprise that she thinks I'm quite unnoticed, unfairly by other women because I'm really a rare guy who treats women very well.

It is all right to treat women well. The problem is in other things that often go hand in hand with being nice to women. So while you have this positive quality of being nice to women (and surely other positive qualities that show up once they get to know you), there may be other things that show up more. You seem to be not satisfied with yourself. Maybe self-conscious is the world, even if in my language it means exactly the opposite If you are not comfortable with yourself, your looks, personality, or even sexuality, it creates bad mojo that women can sense. (body language, voice tone, behavior, etc)

You may be nice to women, but ask yourself why. Because you want to, or because you need something from them or you never thought otherwise? Again, this is a bad mojo. There are guys who treat women like shit and yet the women adore them. (even some very intelligent and beautiful women) This is a bad quality, but sugarcoated with qualities that turn women on, whether they want it or not. Bad guys, however bad they are, they're not wusses. They're not needy, they do or say what they want and expect the woman to obey - and for women it is reassuring to be in presence of a strong and self-confident man who always knows what to do. Even if he's a thug. That's evolution, man. Keep your good qualities, but check the net if you suffer from the nice guy/wuss syndrome. Watch yourself how often you do or don't do something out of weakness, or desire to avoid confrontation or meeting someone unpleasant, something that you'd do differently if you were strong and self-confident. (sure enough, I've got these moments very often) And you might want to check out David DeAngelo, he's the expert.

I know it's a tough thing to be comfortable with yourself. Remember, we can be both strong and spiritual. Does that mean the end of self-development? I don't think so. If you get into a relationship, you'll sometimes need patience of a saint Sometimes I think women are here to save us from being total egoists, by making us do things for them. And that is all right, if women can motivate men and get the best out of them.

Teralek wrote:

I'll be my own judge when I realize first hand the bond between people when I die physically. I know it is a burden sometimes now but I will get the growth rewards of it afterwards. In spiritual life there is nothing hidden, no thoughts, no feelings, nothing. Even unknown deeds that you did will be known. This is all very hard to grasp but our perspective will be radically different in the afterlife. The best way to put it into words is to see first person accounts of near death experiences.

I hope when the review comes, it will just point out all the objectives, key situations, deciding motivations, important feelings and so on. I hope the soul isn't interested in trivial and physiologic details of life.

Teralek wrote:

But the point of this topic is... there is a very good chance I would've acted differently if I had other beliefs. Most people act different, most people have a different belief than I.

BTW! coincidentially I had a talk with my family recently because I argued that I'm most likely incorruptible! LOL

I don't know, maybe beliefs don't matter that much, it's about the quality of a person, not how you justify it. That way anyone can be a decent person, not just believers in particular things. Maybe what you are plays a role in your beliefs

Yeah, we've got a good and useful belief. Now, imagine an atheist in your place. He'll do exactly the same thing, not out of some supernatural allegiance, but because it is a right thing to do. He'll refuse bribes for being proud of himself, not for afterlife. And also because every bribe we take means a blackmailing material. An atheist can put two and two together, corrupted people aren't free to do what they want, they can't turn around, stop taking bribes and stop obeying the bribers, or shit will hit the fan.

There are of course other methods how to break someone. If they can't find any dirt on you, can you be threatened? Or set up? What if they bully you, like you won't get invited to important meetings? Or they promise you a support unofficially but at the important moment they turn you down? Sometimes they get a guy on live television when he's really unprepared and under pressure and they ask him hard and ambiguous questions, or even deliberately ridiculing questions. That's an old trick to get rid of political opposition...Sometimes I think there's no salvation for the current political system, it must be all cleaned out and only then decent people can work in there.

About women (alhtough this is a sidetalk to the OP). Minds are the playground of thoughts so yes I imagined behaving differently. But for one I can't, it's in my blood, and I don't want to, since I believe I'm doing the right thing. I'm not saying I don't want to learn and I don't need to improve. Actually very recently something very insightful happened that taught me a lot about me and about women. Next time I will not be so ignorant.

But this only goes to prove that bitchness can give you success if you know how to use it, which is actually one of the consequences of the thought line of my OP.

About the Review - inner motivation is at the core of it. Honest and generous motivations are the best. Selfish and inconsiderate motivations are the worst.

I disagree about beliefs. Every single believe system reflects on your behavior. If you believe that fruit is good for you, you probably eat it more often.

If an atheist, faced with the same situation, would act the same way it's because he has a perfectly reasonable reason to do it... or not... since doing because genes say is no reason at all... it's just the way it is.

In my personal case though, I clearly remember my conflicting thoughts and I know my belief system helped in making the decision. Given the fact that I also know that most people would do differently this helps me prove that in some situations a certain belief in the afterlife can give you reasonable support to your actions which otherwise, in physicalism, may seem pointless.

I already tried to make this point some time ago here, but I didn't use a real life example.

About the political system and our world paradigm, I'm losing faith on a daily basis about a fairer world.

______________________________________________________________"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies

"Depart from me, ye cursed into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels"

because, those on the left did not feed those who were hungry, clothe those who were naked et al....

So essentially you are in fear of being cursed by the Jesus into damnation in everlasting fire so under threat you do kindness to others.

Nope, for some strange reason most people here think I give ANY credit to the Bible... when I couldn't care less what the Bible says... I only fear to be ignorant. Ignorance is the mother of all evils.

Before you mention let me tell you that I also don't give much importance to other "sacred" texts like the Koran or the Bhagavad Gita. They are nice literary works with some touching passages and some philosophical ideas but that's all they are.

OK then, not a Christian.

Got it.

However, the fear of retribution or a bad situation must still be part of your belief coercing you to do what is perceived as "ethical or moral" to you.

Otherwise, the simple point that people are the most important thing in the world is all you need.

No afterlife aspects are required.

Teralek wrote:

Actually I think snakes go very far in their professional life. Snakes often take power positions.

I think that this colleague I'm speaking of is not a bad person at all... if you only met my manager... Oh Jesus!

The secret is simple and was taught by Machiavelli - "It's the best to be a snake in life as long as everyone thinks you're a lamb" - something like this.

I can show you some research saying this.

Well those that are self centered dicks may go far for awhile.

Yet even Hitler put a bullet in his own brain.

Just saying.

Teralek wrote:

Ok imagine the following situation: I know someone with AIDS and I run from this person, reject her because in my ignorance I think AIDS is as contagious as the flu. When I find out that it is perfectly safe to give a hug to someone with AIDS I feel bad for the way I treated this person. AM I feeling bad because someone is punishing me?! No. I'm judging myself, that's all that will happen in the "unproven" afterlife.I already explain what I believe briefly in post #12

OK, you really are embarrassed for acting so poorly to others. That's exactly what I have been telling you as well.

People are the most important thing in the world, being cruel reflects on your own person. This still requires no afterlife.

Teralek wrote:

Quote from the Bible again... why?... I dont understand... This is the God paranoia I'm talking about. Implying things I didn't say... this straw man argument is quite week to my original point which no one refuted satisfactory until now.I know tons and tons of believers that say one thing and do another. Evangelicals have a bullet proof way to get out of this though. They say we are all sinners and it's unavoidable to do wrong and hurt others so don't mind too much about it. You only need to believe in Jesus and you are automatically saved.

My bad!

Again I spoke with ignorance as to your belief system.

Now I know, you are not a Christian.

I get it now!!!

Being forgiven by the Jesus does not correct the harm. Even Jews believe that when they harm others the thing that must be done is to make it right with the person they harmed or insulted.

The harm was still done and a correction is required.

Teralek wrote:

I actually believe that we will meet all in heaven. "Burn forever in fire" is nonsense

Well I'll be in the process of being recycled into starstuff so don't think so.

Teralek wrote:

Well actually I'm a follower of Gandhi and Tolstoy philosophy of pacifism, extreme pacifism. Even if when confronted I may not act as a pacifist. But pacifism is the right thing to do yes.

As I already mention to EXC I agree with you regarding retail. If you read my response in post #6 you have more details about that.

Then by participating in the deceptive retail commission job you are knowingly deceiving others. Hence you have a moral dilemma with yourself.

You admit this by telling Exc if you know of a better way or job tell me.

One would think you could do this yourself if following your philosophy was as important as you indicate.

What you have done is to put the money first in front of your philosophy.

However, I'm not saying what you do is wrong, people have the ability to know that they can buy something for less then through a commission based operation,

Yet, many don't.

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.

Okay... just for the purpose of making my thoughts clear on the issue of God since there is still a lot of people here that seem confused about my beliefs, I will make them more clear.

I avoid talking about God in any arguments since at least 2 years ago. Because I'm incapable and ignorant to form a coherent definition of God.

I believe in a First Cause to the physical Cosmos which has properties of it's own and it's most likely conscient.

Although I believe this I also believe that it's pointless and presumptuous to define a "being" of this magnitude who's true nature rests outside known boundaries of knowledge and physics. We are smart but we are also insignificant and there's a lot that we don't know. At the end of the day We live in the dark.

So the next conclusion is to say that the God issue is irrelevant in virtually all life Earthly life discussions. I think that this First Cause may be in some way related to this intrinsic and "physical" bond of love that binds all consciences together, but this is a thought from my self study, I don't intend to prove it. I hope this made my point more clear on the God issue.

______________________________________________________________"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies

However, the fear of retribution or a bad situation must still be part of your belief coercing you to do what is perceived as "ethical or moral" to you.

Otherwise, the simple point that people are the most important thing in the world is all you need.

No afterlife aspects are required.

It's not fear of retribution, it's fear of self judgment when I reach the phase when I'm aware of life as it is, or will be. I believe that I have answered this in the AIDS metaphor.True no afterlife is required. But I argue that sometimes in physicalism saying that "people are the most important thing in the world" can be unfounded or in this specific example you can argue that I could keep the money since I am as important as her and no one would have known my action. I didn't do this to please her.I actually put "the right thing" in between comas, in the title, because the right thing in subjectivism is not a closed issue. One can argue that I didn't do the right thing like the colleague that was with me at the time when he said I should keep the commission.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Well those that are self centered dicks may go far for awhile.

Yet even Hitler put a bullet in his own brain.

Just saying.

There is a long way between phycopathy and just being a snake. Snakes can do well for indefinite time. The best snakes are the ones you don't hear about in the news... and believe me there are loads...

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

OK, you really are embarrassed for acting so poorly to others. That's exactly what I have been telling you as well.

People are the most important thing in the world, being cruel reflects on your own person. This still requires no afterlife.

Ignorance my friend... ignorance. There was a point in my life that I couldn't get the answers I wanted, not from science nor form religion. My experience told me there was something that evaded most people and this something was Real. So I did my self study which brought me where I am today. Still far from knowing the whole truth but much more satisfied with the little I know since I was able to reconcile conflicting ideas in my mind.

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Well I'll be in the process of being recycled into starstuff so don't think so.

We'll see about that... or not

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Then by participating in the deceptive retail commission job you are knowingly deceiving others. Hence you have a moral dilemma with yourself.

You admit this by telling Exc if you know of a better way or job tell me.

One would think you could do this yourself if following your philosophy was as important as you indicate.

What you have done is to put the money first in front of your philosophy.

However, I'm not saying what you do is wrong, people have the ability to know that they can buy something for less then through a commission based operation,

Yet, many don't.

I already told you I agree with you. Yes I'm not a saint! I need to earn a living or else I wouldn't even be here talking with you. Got a job for me? I want to go abroad. I'm going to England next year... maybe.Yes, in this job I often have moral dillemas and I try to be as honest as possible and I don't lie.I'm a very lousy retailer though... I wonder why! LOL The reason they hired me back is because I do quite a good service.In case you have been living in Mars the news here on Earth is that retailing is becoming part of almost every business type in the service area. Since the western world survives more and more with servicesYes I want to leave retail and I should have the guts to do it and face the consequences but that time has not come yet. Commission based retail is actually growing exponentially when compared to "normal" retail. You see, companies believe that this motivates the employee to sell.

______________________________________________________________"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies

Some hours later she went to the manager and was decided that she would take the whole commission because she argued that she alone persuaded the client to the buying.

I have no idea what this has to do with any afterlife.

In this life it means you made a decision in favor of group success as in a restaurant where all tips are split among all workers. She however took a one time gain and insured no matter how many times she makes a sale of this kind in the future she never gets half. If she had settled for half then if it happened only twice again she would ahead. Now if it happens twice more she is behind. If she had split she could get half forever. Because she did not she never gets more from this situation than she has now.

Our "morality" is geared towards group success. Her behavior gets here rejected from the group while yours gets you kept because you share. Not the afterlife, this life.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

I appreciate the sentiment but I won't be in attendance because I will be too busy being dead.

Oh come on! There's free Prozac in Heaven.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen

Some hours later she went to the manager and was decided that she would take the whole commission because she argued that she alone persuaded the client to the buying.

I have no idea what this has to do with any afterlife.

In this life it means you made a decision in favor of group success as in a restaurant where all tips are split among all workers. She however took a one time gain and insured no matter how many times she makes a sale of this kind in the future she never gets half. If she had settled for half then if it happened only twice again she would ahead. Now if it happens twice more she is behind. If she had split she could get half forever. Because she did not she never gets more from this situation than she has now.

Our "morality" is geared towards group success. Her behavior gets here rejected from the group while yours gets you kept because you share. Not the afterlife, this life.

Your logic seems good if not for the fact that everyone in the team would do the same (keep quiet and keep the comission). Competition is praised in this company as you can see by the manager's attitude.

For your logic to play out, others have to know about what I did or didn't do. IF no one knows about what you did your group success thingie is not that marvelous for you.

As I said, I do agree in part with evolutionary morality. It does not explain everything though, if just for the fact that most people would do differently in that particular situation.

Altruism in the large mass of people has it's limits. True that per se afterlife has nothing to do with this. But my original point stands - beliefs influence your behavior, whether belief in afterlife or smurfs. The reason this is so is because beliefs can give logical support to the agent doing it. I think my particular way to see afterlife gives me more solid ground to base altruism when there is not so much logic to support it.

The outcome of what I did was not that great in my group integration. I'd say I stayed the same way as I was basically within my group. Except from an occasional comment of a guy there who said I was the nicest guy he ever knew. I didn't get more invited to parties or get more girls or get praised by the manager.

I remember very well that period of time, which was not that short, that I was deciding what to do and I know my personal beliefs helped me making the decision - Beliefs influence your behavior. I also thought that despite what I was being told, splitting the commission was the most just thing to do.

______________________________________________________________"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies

For example you believe that a belief in God is insane and should be banned for it does more harm than good. Belief in superstitions is the same as believing in fairy tales or invisible pink unicorns. So you act accordingly by comming to this forum.

My belief is not "supernatural" it's merely preternatural (depending on your definition of natural) but anyway here are some studies showing that religious beliefs, and beliefs in general influence your behavior and limit the extent of altruism:

It seems pretty obvious that women in the middle ages where burned at the stake because many people believed in witches...

Bear in mind that I don't support many views of mainstream religious though...

The "Prisoner's dilemma" shows a core reason why so many people compete instead of cooperate in the real world... unlike the fantasy world spoken by evolutionary ethics apologists. Most people are not that great.

______________________________________________________________"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies

For example you believe that a belief in God is insane and should be banned for it does more harm than good.

You think atheists want thought police and to jail people for showing any signs of religious belief???

The problem with as you say "doing the right thing" is that it doesn't eliminate the source of the problem it prevents there from being a real solution to problems based on what works, science and reason. Religion is at best a placebo for personal and societal problems.

For instance religion tells people not to steal or kill. So maybe some poor people don't steal or kill because they believe they may miss out on heaven. But does this really solve the causes of poverty? No!. So the problems of poverty just continues thanks to using religion instead of reason to solve the problem. So in the long run you're not doing the right thing you're making the problems worse by treating them with a placebo.

Should we treat diseases like cancer with sugar pills we say will cure people or should we use science to solve problems that cause misery?

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen

For example you believe that a belief in God is insane and should be banned for it does more harm than good. Belief in superstitions is the same as believing in fairy tales or invisible pink unicorns. So you act accordingly by comming to this forum.

Again, blanket statements. I don't care whether people wish to believe in god or not. It is when they use religion as a tool for political manipulation that I have a problem.

Until my niece and nephew grew out of that stage, I made sure to tell them every Christmas that Santa was coming down the chimney (often causing them to stay up late to catch a glimpse, which was inconvenient for all of us adults, because we had to wait for them to go to sleep to drag the presents out).

While I am not on good terms with much of my family, there are quite a few of us that get along quite well, even though they are Catholic and I am an Atheist.

My girlfriend believes in a force, a creative intelligence of some type that is behind everything. She doesn't believe in religion, doesn't necessarily see god in an image of man/woman, but believes there is something spiritual beyond our perceived notions of reality. Her and I have been together for quite some time, we have had many deep discussions that were not hostile in the least. They were and are very enjoyable.

I had a biker friend of mine that got involved in a "christian" motorcycle ministry group. He and I have had long conversations and get alone quite well, in spite of our differences. When he introduced me to some of his riding club, he introduced me as " My Atheist Buddy,".

There are people that believe the bible and all ancient religions produce evidence of flying saucers and alien civilizations. They even theorize that all the pyramids were constructed by aliens and the Nazis had access to that ancient technology. What do I care ? Do I believe that ? Nope, I think it is all nonsense. Doesn't mean I want to take it away from them.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno

Whatever... I'm not in disagreement... I was just being sarcastic there... I'm sure everyone of you has very good reasons to be here. I'm sure your genes didn't force you to be in this forum.

______________________________________________________________"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies

That remains questionable. If I was anything like the rest of my family, I should still be a church-going, bible -reading, rosary-praying Catholic that has to go to confession on a regular basis. Which I once was. It took me almost 5 or 6 years before I realized that I no longer believed in god.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno

That remains questionable. If I was anything like the rest of my family, I should still be a church-going, bible -reading, rosary-praying Catholic that has to go to confession on a regular basis. Which I once was. It took me almost 5 or 6 years before I realized that I no longer believed in god. Not that it really matters, I just could not resist the temptation to banter. I guess everyone needs something to believe in and right now, I believe I will light another cigarette, crack open a beer and see if there is anything interesting on tv before I start the work week tomorrow.

EDIT

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno

Our "morality" is geared towards group success. Her behavior gets here rejected from the group while yours gets you kept because you share. Not the afterlife, this life.

Your logic seems good if not for the fact that everyone in the team would do the same (keep quiet and keep the comission). Competition is praised in this company as you can see by the manager's attitude.

For your logic to play out, others have to know about what I did or didn't do. IF no one knows about what you did your group success thingie is not that marvelous for you. ...

I loathe the idea of giving advice when it is not asked for because when it is bad advice I can't blame the person for asking.

That said you would likely do much better in a field where it is a matter of team work and group success. This would be most any group that requires people responsible to different areas working together. I don't know what you do but literally from restaurant service to program management. The competition there is for promotion and helping the group succeed is a positive thing.

You not ask me and I didn't say that.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.