Judaism is based on a strict monotheism. This doctrine expresses the belief in one indivisible God. The worship of multiple gods (polytheism) and the concept of a Singular God having multiple persons (as in the doctrine of Trinity) are equally unimaginable in Judaism. The statement par excellence in terms of defining God is the Shema Yisrael, originally appearing in the Hebrew Bible: "Hear O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One", also translated as "Hear O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is unique/alone".[Deut. 6:4]

God is non-physical, non-corporeal, and eternal. A corollary belief is that God is utterly unlike man, and can in no way be considered anthropomorphic, as stated in Maimonides’ Thirteen Principles of Faith. All statements in the Hebrew Bible and in rabbinic literature which use anthropomorphism are held to be linguistic conceits or metaphors, as it would otherwise have been impossible to talk about God at all.

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So if God has no body, then who were the elders looking at?

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The Father is too “big” to have a body. He is invisible also. He does not “show Himself.”

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In Exod 33:20-23, the Father God speaks

Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put theein a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

I totally agree with you. I just wanted insight into the Christian idea of Jesus and the Holy Spirit needing to be separated entities from YHWH Himself. To me, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the parts of YHWH He created to deal with this plane of existence.

that is a good way to look at it. I have other posts on this topic, of same vs separate, etc…..there does seem to be presentations that are complex and confusing….it is really a mystery how it actually works….ie why are 3 mentioned at all? why not just one?…there are differences of opinion within christianity….some are “jesus only” believers, others are separate, 3 in ones…we will get our answers in heaven…

unless i am mistaken, those that actually saw god only seen his backparts. i know you already posted that, but i cannot remember any living human being that say the face of god. the burning bush from my understanding was the presence of god to moses. when jesus walked the earth he was needless to say in human form and his face would not have been the actual face of god.

Actually Johnwaltz Moses saw Yeshua and His backside. It was Yeshua that identified Himself as YHVH which in the Paleo Hebrew they spoke means ‘Behold the hand behold the nail’. He actually identified Himself to His people from the start yet most Jews and Christians alike have missed this.
Blessings

Well done, Marianne. Isaiah 52.7!!!
Isaiah often seems like a whole Book of the Holy One in itself.
I’m appreciating lately how much beyond my understanding He is.
The Word of God is a PART of Him He shows us. I hope I get to learn more in Heaven. Occasionally I learn a LITTLE more even here…and those learnings come with the tears of effort. It is a work we do here, to learn a little more of Him.

I feel, at times, I “try” too hard to understand, to comprehend. Where you say, Marianne: ” In Exod 33:20-23, the Father God speaks: ‘Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.'” God must be so far beyond the ability of the human brain to wrap itself around, that it is only in our death (perhaps) that we can actually “see” Him?

We can “see” Him through our “knowing” Him, seeing & knowing meaning our limited understanding. But, to actually SEE him, really SEE Him, inclusive of sight and understanding . . . . .ah. I try so hard sometimes. For me, there lies the awe and reverence (fear?) and the letting go – trust & faith.

Of course they had all been dealing with Yeshua all along. Like He said, if you seen Him, you’ve seen the Father. Yah is Spirit, whereas Yeshua born as the Son of Man, as a practicing Jew from the tribe of Judah, has been manifesting Himself to man since Eden. When Jacob/Israel wrestled with Him, He did not give His name but when Moses asked Him in whose name do I tell your people the Torah is given, Yeshua answered in PALEO Hebrew “YHVH”; Behold the Hand; Behold the Nail, a clear indication of His identity. He could not have been clearer, specially if we keep in mind that back then names meant something. Seen from the ancient Jewish wedding perspective, the Father set aside a bride for the Son. The preliminary steps and betrothal have taken place. The groom already paid the bride price. Now the bride needs to make herself ready, and the guests too, if they want to be in the wedding of the Lamb. Better to really start following where those feet really walked and get those lamps filled with oil/word because soon the groom will return looking for His bride, get ready.

John saw both God the Father and the Son as described in the book of Revelation:

“At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and ruby. A rainbow that shone like an emerald encircled the throne.”

“Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals.”

“Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne.”

So by comparing the verses above, we can deduce that the One who is sitting on the throne is God the Father and that because it is the Lamb (Jesus), who is taking the scroll from the right hand of the One who is sitting on the throne, which could be none other than the Father.

The phrase, “The Lord our God is One God” infers that God is made up of multiple persons. Jesus also made it clear to his disciples regarding the Father when he said the following:

“Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father.

And at the 6th seal, in John’s vision, when the sky is rolled back like a scroll, the inhabitants of the earth appear to see God the Father sitting on the throne, as well as the Lamb, which is why they are calling for the rocks to fall on them in order to be hidden from his sight.

” They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

I thought this passage was interesting, as my jewish friends do not believe God has a body . He is spirit only. And here in their own Torah it says differently. If God has feet, then there is a body attached to it.

i have a request of my christian brothers and sisters in christ our lord. for jesus said; where two or three are gathered together in one place, whatever they ask of me i shall do it for them. as some of you know in the last 20 months i have undergone 3 spinal surgeries. i received the mri report from 2 months ago of my lumbar spine where l5-s1 were partially fused in october of 2013, a few months went by and the pain in my lower back and espically the horrable pain in my entire left leg also diminished. while at the neurosurgeons office where they did this mri, i had told the neurosurgeon that my lower back pain and the horrable left leg pain have returned. the report showed a buldging disk at l3-l4, a central buldge at l5-s1 where the partial fusion had been done, nerve root compression at s-1 , and at l5-s1 there is spinal stenosis. this will mean an almost sure 4 th. surgery on my spine. on the 5th of june i am going to a cleveland clinic pain managment specialist. i ask that you pray that this specialist will understand the severity of pain i am going through every minute of each day. i can not walk more then a couple hundred feet without causing the pain in my entire left leg going from a 6 on the pain scale to an 8-9 for many hours, all i am on for pain at this time is muscle relaxers and oxycodone 2 every 6 hours. these medications are really not for the kind of pain from nerve root compression and spinal stenosis. (if any of you have had an hernaited spinal disk that was causing compression on the nerve roots, you know what kind of pain i am refuring to), i an not worried about the surgery, but the pain is very bad 24-7. these kinds of surgeries take appx. 2 months to get everything set up, prior to the surgery. so i ask you all to pray for the pain and to give this specialist the wisdom to understand. i thank you all in advance for your prayers which i know our lord will here.

marianne; thank you for your prayers, without question the lord has heard them. unfortunatly i cannot take gabapentin, or lyricia, both of those were thied prior to my first cervical spine surgery and i gained over 20 lbs. within a month. both time. i have also had many ephidurals and they were useless. talk with your friend that has had this kind of problem, he can tell you firsthand the relentesness of this kind of pain. aagain i wisk to thank you any anyone else for these prayers.

it sounds like weight gain due to water retention? then there should be other meds to go with gabapentin to reverse this effect…..if the weight gain is due to actual fat, then there should be something the doctor can give you to speed up a slowed metabolism to balance out what it is doing to you…..I have gained weight after surgery, when I was inactive, sedentary, so I know what you mean.

also, the doctors should not be dragging their feet….they should go ahead and schedule the surgery….and not treat this as routine, but emergency instead….if you were an emergency, they would get you in sooner.

my friend also has a brace he wears…to help give support and take pressure off his back.

A vehicle accident ended my career, I have a fusion in my neck at C4/5 and C5/6, and my left hip bone was impacted so severe the doctors believed it was certain to die. I also have awful pain in my SI region, down my left back side and left leg, and am on Oxycodone and muscle relaxers.

What HAS helped me, strangely enough, is I was prescribed to have a TENS unit at home. (TENS – transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulation) It doesn’t fix anything, it doesn’t cure or change anything. But in the moment of using it, it scrambles the nerves enough for me, that for that instance, to have SOME relief from the pain.

People without chronic severe pain can not know the horrific state that one can be in from it. TENS doesn’t work for everyone or every condition involving nerve pain, but, just a thought for you to discuss with your doctors, though I would be surprised if it hasn’t come up in conversation by now.

God uses many of us, including doctors, to use as vehicles for His grace. You are in my prayers that He hear you and for you to find the relief you seek.

i am sorry that this has happened to you, and i have attempted to use tens units with no help from them. i thank you for your prayers, you already know what nerve compression does. i have had c5-6 fused then c7 fused to c5-6, then a partial fusion at L5-s1, they could not do a full fusion on the left side at L5-s1 because i have a conjoined nerve root there and the s1 nerve root was laying over the lip of the next vert. we need more doctors that have had spinal stenosis and nerve root compression so they will know the continuous pain and intensite of these problems. you probally already know that the affected arm or leg fells like a gigantic severe toothache that never ever goes away. talk about living in discomfort!

thank you for your prayers. i sometimes sit and wonder why we who serve god are placed in situations of great bodily pain. not pain that is momentary or of a few weeks or even a few months, i already know that it is lucifer being allowed to cause such suffering. but what i know is even through this non-relenting suffering, we hear others saying how can someone be able to still smile and talk to people who are lost about salvation. i remember when i had my second cervical surgery, and the very next morning i got out of the hospital bed and walked around the halls, i passed a doctor who was looking at me as i passed and heard him state; my god that’s one tough s.o.b. / the same morning a male nurse was talking to me and for no reason at all he stated he was not sure he wanted to be a nurse or become a priest. and we talked for 30 minutes about which path he should take. trying to make some sense of what i am saying here is; there were other patients and hospital personal hearing our conservation about what path he should choose. instead of us talking about the problems and pain from such a surgery. this was not one of those one inch surgeries you hear on the television but a 7 inch insicion. i am not sure why i am writing down these words in this manner this morning. but i am sure of one thing. here on this site great distances from each other, we gain strength from people we have never met in person.

Holy Moly, John, it seems to me that God has you right where He wants you.

A friend of mine’s, wife, passed from cancer a couple of years ago. Both of them deeply believe in, and are of service to, God. In the moment they couldn’t see why God had given them such a tragedy, a struggle, in their lives. Until after she passed away, and my friend wrote a book on their experiences (living / dying) My friend realized that what they went through, wasn’t some punishment, it wasn’t some wrong path they took, they were always where they were supposed to be. And, in order to cross the paths of those they did his wife had to have the cancer and a certain kind.

He now helps other family caregivers understand (to the best we can in the moment) and helps them see how God never leaves us in the midst of our emotional and physical pain.

When I pray on stuff around me, or about me, I don’t necessarily ask for my circumstances to change, as much as I ask to have better understanding of it all, that I may serve Him better.

It sounds to me, John, that through everything you have gone through and you continue to go through, you have never lost sight of your focus, what is in this heart.

It may be temporary, our passing through this planet, this plane, ….. but, it sure helps when the body can keep up! 🙂 For me, that is when I stop and take time to sit at the feet of the Master, of Christ. Sometimes that means my slowing down and paying attention. I can only think of all the lives you may have influenced by helping this nurse decide his path, regardless of whether he remains in nursing or changes career to the Priesthood, and all the lives that he will touch.

what you said about the man and his wife is a key that we all should take note of. god has all of his soldiers exactly where they are needed, many times the soldier dose not understand why they halt to go through such hardships but if we sit back and think about the people around us and what they see and hear, then our suffering has a much greater cause, inspiration to the lost, strength where there should be none left. and souls saved by our suffering in a way we never seem to consider. this is why so many times the good suffer, this is an answer to people who say; why would god let horrible things happen to children, men, women, why. the answer is exactly what you have brought up. the faithfull servent of god died, but whit that death many were saved from everlasting destruction.

It is so true that when mankind is experiencing the worst of times that the best of what is inside all of us comes out to shine. I think of how humanity, in the midst of tragedies – hurricanes, fires, massive casualties, is so compassionate and selfless to one another. And I wonder, “Why can’t we be like this, more often, towards one other when things are going ‘good’?”

” … this was not one of those one inch surgeries you hear on the television but a 7 inch insicion.”

Oh, Lord, John, how I know! 🙂 I, myself, have a 7 inch “zipper” going down the back of my neck from my second surgery. It is amazing how many times we can go in for repairs and come back out closer to God and more certain of our path.

And though I believe that there is most likely some reason for our pain and suffering, it can be so intense at times that I do ask for a little respite so I can breathe for a moment and then continue. I hope your doctors are able to help you find that respite.

And, as much as I give Marianne credit and thank her for this site, I also believe it is God who has given us this medium to find one another in support as we all walk our path with Him.

John, agreeing with you in prayer. I too have similar spine issues so I more than understand your pain. From your posts, you continue to praise God, as HE is our strength, Praise HIS Holy name! God bless you, know HE never leaves or forsakes. May your body and soul rest in HIS Love and be free of such pain, as we offer ALL up to HIM~

if you have ever had a boil, you know the horrable pain that one causes. i think of the pain we go through, and sometimes that pain is severe and lasts for weeks, months, years, god makes the unbearable bearable, for his purposes. when we say to the lord; thy will not mine be done, we then sometimes pay a great price, but can you put a price on eternel life in heaven? no. many of us wish and pray that god would take us home, and we become weary, but there are only a few more steps to glory. and i think of job. can you imagine being job when he finally went to be with god? he lost everything, his best friends spoke against him, but then his friends did not go through what job did. lucifer does there kinds of things, wager’s in a kind of way with god. i think thinking this way helps us take those last few steps to heaven.

Amen Denise, praying for your physical needs also. Seems many of us here have chronic pain, health issues. For me I am learning to embrace mine as clinging to my Master, grasping the hem of HIS garment. Keeps us close to the LORD and connected with compassion, as we agree with each other[ here] in prayer ~ Shalom.

Moses and those that were allowed up the Mountain saw The Lord God, NOT God The Father.The Lord God took on Human Appearance, as He dis when talking to Abraham and others in the Old Testament.This is The Lord God, who one day would take on a human body, be born as we are born and experience what it means to be human.That’s why He knows us all through and through, because He experienced all of our desires and temptations, yet without committing Sin.He is our perfect Sacrifice and Passover Lamb. Melchizadeck was also the lord God in a Human Form.We are so fortunate to have a God , who wants to get involved with every aspect of His Creation!

The verse is clear in that, Jesus (God in the flesh) took with him Peter, James and John up the mountain and was transfigured before them so that they saw him in his glorified state. Then a cloud enveloped them and the other person of the Godhead (God the Father) spoke saying,

“This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”

Therefore, the Scripture is clear that there were two persons of the Godhead present on that mount, Jesus in his glorified state and God the Father who spoke regarding his Son. To be clearer, Jesus was not the one who spoke from the cloud.

Short Study in Isaiah and Revelations, and others. Just plain scriptures.
1. ISA. 7:14- Therefore the “LORD HIMSELF” shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Immanuel – Means GOD with us – singular

2. ISA. 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and HIS “not theirs” name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, THE MIGHTY GOD , THE EVERLASTING FATHER, The Prince of Peace. = All manifestations of ONE God.

3. ISA.12:2- Behold, GOD IS MY SALVATION ; (not gods) – I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH =(singular) is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation. Jehovah covers his 7 attributes of salvation power. As in Lord of the Harvest, the Lord that Healeth thee, The Lord that Prosper’s His people etc.

4. ISA. 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. = (Jesus is Lord – Paul said there are not 2 Lords ) = also this proves you cannot serve two master’s according to Gods own Commandments given to Moses. Ye shall not have no other gods before me.

5. ISA. 43:3- For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, THY SAVIOUR : I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.
a. Savior is in the singular

6. ISA. 43:11- I, even I, am the LORD; and “BESIDE ME” THERE IS NO SAVIOUR
a. Very Plain scripture explains scripture.

7. ISA. 44:6 – ISAIAH 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and “his redeemer the LORD” of hosts; “I am the first, and I am the last“; and “BESIDE ME” there is no God. = Jesus said HE was the first and last as well. The Alpha and the Omega and the Beginning and the End.

8. ISA. 45:18- For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; GOD HIMSELF that formed the earth and made it; HIMSELF -(singular) hath established it, HE(not they) created it not in vain, HE formed it to be inhabited: I AM THE LORD; AND THERE IS “NONE” ELSE.
a. ( I AM ) singular

Book of Revelation is the “revealing of the “Mystery of Jesus Christ” to the church.

REV. 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord,(singular) which is, and which was, and which is to come, THE ALMIGHTY “reference Isaiah” -NOT Almighty’s as in 3 person’s – Its the I AM singular” in all three attributes of Salvation.

REV. 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: “reference Isaiah

REV. 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, A THRONE (singular) was set in heaven, and “ONE SAT” – (singular) on the THRONE . (singular again)

REV 4:8- ¶ And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD GOD ALMIGHTY. (one god) which was, and is, and is to come.
a. Three manifestations veiled in Mask yet the same Person . God just changes HIS mask =veil. Still the “same God behind the Flesh body of Jesus“.

REV. 4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks TO HIM (not them) that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, = very precise to HIM not them. The Throne singular

REV. 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before HIM that sat on the THRONE , and worship HIM that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before THE (singular) THRONE , saying,

REV. 4:11 Thou art worthy, “O Lord“, (not lords) to receive glory and honour and power: for “THOU” (not we) thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

REV. 5:1- ¶ And I saw in the RIGHT HAND of HIM (singular) that sat on the throne= (Him and Arm are the same person) As Paul said of his Body. One is a eye, one is a ear, one is a arm, one is a hand, one is a leg and its all one person the body of Christ. It the same thing.

REV. 5:3 And “NO MAN” in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
REV. 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in “THE MIDST” OF THE THRONE – (not throne’s plural) and of the four beasts, and in the “MIDST” of the elders, “STOOD A LAMB” as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
a. Lamb singular – Lamb is in the MIDST of the throne singular. God became Flesh and came back to Glory as the Lamb of God the Savior of Mankind.
Remember the “LAMB” took the Book that NO MAN = First Adam’s creations.
Could not open it. Cause they were sinners. Only a God/man could shed His sinless Blood. Uncontaminated. The Blood of God
Rev. 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the “RIGHT HAND OF HIM (singular) that sat upon the throne.

The Right Arm of GOD WAS THE LAMB – The Immanuel, and All that Isaiah said he was. God in a Human Body had to die. NO MAN could be the REDEEMER – Except a GOD/MAN – God is the only one that could redeem mankind. Period

ARM 2220 zrowa’ from 2232; 1) arm, forearm, shoulder, strength
b) arm (as symbol of strength) 1c) forces (political and military) 1d) shoulder (of animal sacrificed)
2. The Right Arm of a man was His strength. This is (symbolic) If there was no MAN as JESUS then their would not be any salvation for us. Jesus had the Kingdom of God upon HIS SHOULDERS In Isaiah.

GODHEAD EXPLAINED CLEARLY BY SCRIPTURE –

4. REV. 19:13 – And HE was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and HIS NAME IS CALLED THE WORD OF GOD.
5. TIM. 3:16 – And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. This is Jesus Christ the LORD GOD

1 Jh. 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

These are Literal and Spiritual scripture’s and if you cannot believe these scriptures in Isaiah, St. John and Apostle Paul. Then they were all false teachers. And most of the N.T period.
This is mostly all scripture. It cannot lie. If this does not convince you then I do not know what will. I have been teaching this same thing on this Forum for over 2 years now. I sure hope this will set you free from the confusion of Godhead. Its Gods will for you to Understand one of the most important issue’s in the whole Bible. Who is GOD. When you divide god up into 3 pieces. You can never really understand fully the meaning of the Bible.

Beacon
PS will be praying for you John 777 tonight. I’ve known pain and feel for you.

Beacon, its wonderful to witness such clear understanding of the parables that refer to God. For indeed unless the entire scriptures are explained in resolution of the first and greatest commandment, they are explained amiss.

How does a lamb stand in the midst of the throne, which already had the Ancient of days sitting upon it, save to signify in spirit that this lamb as though slain was the An cient of days himself, and thus the attributes of the sevens to ratify the comparison.

There is no God other than Jesus Christ who fills all the attributes of God, the non visible and the visible for our sake.

I really have not yet come across any scripture that contradicts the first commandment. For in regardthat no man has seen God and lived, this essentially speaks of the carnal self rather than the spiritual being. The question ought to be what one becomes after they are born again of the spirit and truth? Do they remain as mankind, or are they new creatures that are spirit rather than flesh, whence they can then witness God face to face and live, as was the case with Moses, and any of the ancient prophets of God?

Then also Moses spake to God face to face, may be idiom to insist on the clarity of their communication, and secondly clarifies that Moses in time did qualify from when he could only be allowed to see the hinderparts of God, to a latter time.

As for many who resolve to await mystery of God to be illustrated to them in heaven, while for now they linger between diverse explanation of the law, it may soind sweet and logical but is neither. For God himself has channels to teach and convict each one of us concerning such an important matter as this, and all we have to do is ask.

Marianne
Jesus taught that God was a Spirit – Making HIM Thee Holy Spirit – How could Jesus “Always do the will of the Father”. From childhood up.

He had the Spirit of God in it’s fullness that told Him what to do and say. And also not what to do and say. Jesus obeyed every word of God – He had to cause Jesus had NO SIN = unbelief. God has no sin.

His desire was Only for God – He was Born of the Holy Spirit which has no sex desire by fleshly lust. Jesus had temptations yet without sin. He suffered yet without sin. He was not born through lust desire. But by the Will of God to take away the sins of mankind. Rev. 5 the human Lamb of God. The human Lamb can sit on the throne as well.

We as His New Creation after receiving the Holy Spirit = GOD. We quit sin and live by every word that proceeds out of the Mouth of God. Our “Desire changes as well”. We now have God living in us. The Word is our Guide always. The Word is GOD.

Christ is called God in
John 1:1- In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. – Jesus was the Manifestation of the Word in human flesh. God in a flesh body. That was the shadow of his back that Moses seen. Shadows of things to come. On Emmaus road Jesus went back to Moses and brought HIMSELF up through the Scriptures.

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him,”” My Lord and my God.””
— No Jew is ever going to call any man His Lord and My God if he does not know for sure. Especially in that day.

1 John v:20, And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. “”This is the true God,”” and eternal life.

Rom. 9:5, Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh “”Christ came, “”who is over all””, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Christ is OVER all.

Titus 2:13, Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the “”great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;””

Heb 1:8 But unto “”the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God,”” is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

If Jesus is not God Himself – Then we are adding more to the list of False Prophets as with the other Post I sent in. Thomas, Titus, add to the list.
We mise well through Revelations out the window as well. John must have missed it. In his Gospels and all his Epistles.
Im not saying this with a smart elic attitude just but we need to know who we are serving. His Name is – Lord Jesus Christ.
Lord=God –Jesus=Son — Christ=The Holy Spirit — All in one.

that is correct, jesus,god, and the holy spirit,are one in the frame of they all agree, that is scriptual. at the same time they are three seperate enties. the best example ; jesus was on the cross and said; my god, why hast thou forsaken me. the same goes when jesus said; if i go not, the comforter cannot come. (the holy spirit) there is nothing hard to understand here. a third example; god told jesus his son to sit on his right side untill i make your enemies thy footstool. all of these show that the three are one and at the same time they are seperate enties. i do not see any “big deal” in this fact. there are numerious scriptures that make reference to god and jesus being seperate enties.

for some people, it is a big deal. there is a “jesus only” line of thought that says jesus is the father while in heaven, jesus is the son while on earth, and jesus is the holy spirit, which is the spirit of the departed physical body of jesus.

“Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. (1 Cor.15:24-28)

yes, that is one of the places in gods word that talks about all power going back unto the father. thank you for refreshing my mind, it becomes hard sometimes to bring into memory the exact place’s in gods word that i am looking for. i am dealing with a lot of physical pain, when this happens sometimes i have trouble thinking as clearly . but there is still the verse that states; all power is returned to the father. the vrs. you brought back to my attention are actually saying the same as the vrs. i am looking for. god be with you.

Of Jesus to talk of his father in heaven is explained thus, his position and duties during the incarnation of God in the flesh were severely limited and restricted to suffuring and dying for our sakes. But when all these wad past, he would return to the glory he always had from the begginning as the father. The ministry of our God as the son was therefore of less power and affluence until when he would overcome death and return his original estate. That really is the gist of all he has always tried to let us know ever from the ancient of times.

By the way, the bible I use says to hear o Israel, the Lord your God is one Lord. And Jesus did not come to do away with this law but to empower it. So if he did ever say he was the Lord, then it was him that filled all the capacities of God, for beside him there never was any other God.

Now in Genesis, when God said let us make man in our image, is thus expounded. For the same God did latter say at the time of Lot, Let us go to….. and when they came to Abraham, behold it was the Lord with two of his mighty angels. Thus also it behoves to be understood that at the time of creation, the Lord was speaking in reference to the heavenly host. For in the image of God created he him. Yet male and female created he them. For from man was extracted forth the woman thus saying that it was man who brought forth the woman as the Lord God brought forth all the host of heaven and also earth.

In regard to Jesus addressing the father, he did it for our sake to teach us how to pray, for in all due respect, he and the father were each one in the other as literally as he declared it. It does help to understand God in the capacities of human endeavours, where the same one person can be various capacities. One may be a teacher, a farmer, a parent and a society leader and yet be the same one person. When at school, this teacher will treat all students alike including his own children and will even ask them to relay information to their parents when they get home. This parent when he gets home will await his children to inform him/her what the teacher said without fail, yet well knowing what it was that was said. And so on and so forth.

Well in the quest of who could save mankind and oversee the history of the universe, there was found none other worthy save for He who had designed and created all that there is. Yet as the father he could not commence on a new ministry, and as such was formulated the defined capacity of the son of man/God,. And thus the Lord God for a season vacated the glory he always had and lowered himself to fulfil our salvation and thereafter returned to the right hand of God. The parable of He that sits at the right hand of God defines that all else is at hisleft and thus made submissive to him. So for those who might consider that there might be two or three who are the one God, how ever can the son be greater than the father seeing that he sits at his right hand, unless it is a parable that explains the son and the father to be the same entity and person.

In all scriptural records of the visions of God by diverse prophets of the bible, none whatsoever witneses two or three Lords upon tripple thrones. They all are unanimous on the singularity in vision of the one countable throne and the Ancient of Days being One Lord.

When understanding may fail us, of the diverse references of scrptural parables in regard to the Lord our God, always remember to abide by the exhortation to hear, that the Lord our God is one Lord.

“But when all these wad past, he would return to the glory he always had from the beginning as the father.”

Correction:

But when all these were past, he would return to the glory he always had from the beginning [WITH] the Father, not as the Father.

Also, when he said, “Let us go down and confuse their language” or “The man has now become like one of Us” or “Let Us make man in our own image,” he was speaking about the persons of the Godhead and not angels. We were not made in the image of angels and so the persons of the Godhead are in view. To clarify all of this, while Jesus was here on earth, he was God in the flesh. At the same time, God the Father, another person of the Godhead, was sitting on the throne in heaven. After Jesus ascended back into heaven, he sent the Holy Spirit, showing individuallity. If you don’t believe in the individual persons of the Godhead, then how could Jesus be sitting at the right hand of the Father making intercession for all believers? The only conclusion is that there are two persons in view here, unless you believe that Jesus is sitting beside himself and playing the part of both Father and Son?

Most of the scriptured we must appreciate is in parables, and no doubt that which explain God also is.

The major principle when seeking to comprehend these parables is that which is known as the greatest commandment. That when you count the Lord God, thou shall only come up with one Lord, person or entity.

Unfortunately with interptetations of the scriptures over time, the trinity doctrine has been entrenched regardless of its strange origin. The original Arianism, let alone that which is purpoted to be the teachings of Arianism , was actually the correct position which also the apostles had held, that Jesus Christ was the Lord God.

In Isaiah, the child called God with us is also the everlasting Father. Everlasting in hebrew roots means infinity, which is to say the first and the last. There is no room for any other in that kind of pisition.

The whole mystery of the son of man is this: that when God created everything in the beginning, he did set up all thrones and principalities, including that of Lucifer. The creation that came after Lucifer could not know what the past had been for certain especially with Lucifer’ s invention of lies. And so the struggle came to the fall of man. But it had all began with Lucifer’s envy of God’s singular eternal throne.

So the mystery of redemption was formulated, and only God could descend from heaven to accomplish the ultimate sacrifice and salvation. It also prooved that God’s requirement for all creation to obey the law was not unaccomplishable, nor was the law unfair. In heaven, Lucifer in desiring the throne of God meant he would rather murder God. But with God dead, all else would end. Nor had God given that power to Lucifer. It was therefore only God who would descend to earth to get murdered by he who had always desired his death. But before descending, God had to formulate forth dafeguards for the sake of the rest of the universe. This safeguard was whence the only begotten son of God was manifested, to separate the power of God as creator and sole sustainer. In effect, all of creation would have collapsed had God died on the cross with all his power. Rather instead, these powers he reserved with the mighty throne in heaven as John latter expounds of its constitution, and likewise we know of the might of his word, that no word from the mouth of God is in vain but must accomplish that which it is sent forth to achieve. Thus even in death, the word that would resurrect him had gone forth and after three days it did bring him up again. His first witness after resurrection was to resume his capacity as the father, or with the father in case semantics matter.

Of being the only begotten son of God, those averse with the law, that God is one Lord, readily understand the parable.

By the way, as we beget children in our age, which of us would gain fame for sending forth their only child to go forth to confront the enemy even unto death as they themselves remained in the safety of their strongholds? That is no valour. But rather when one goes forth to defend their subjects. The son of God therefore refers to God in a future time and that which he was to accomplish . For God so loved the world, that he gave himself in a limited sense=the son.

Elrohi, elrohi, rama sabaki thani! These last words of Jesus were greatly misinterpreted even by those who heard them. For it is apparent that they were not hebrew, nor even aramaic. They have been said to have meant ‘my father my father why hast thou forsaken me? Others said he called for Elias. Now if Jesus had wondered and if indeed his father had forsaken him, then to whom did he thereafter commit his spirit, as he thereafter said ‘father unto thee I commit my spirit.’

The real meaning of Elrohi rama sabachi thani, is thus, Observe you all, the way to God is now bestowed forth. And the partition to the holy of holies was thus rent to confirm these words and event.

It is written that a parable not equal when wrongly deciphered , as are the legs of the lame. When One is made to be three composite entities, Lords or persons, and then in the same tongue said to be one, or in unity, is this equal to the first and greatest commandment in your own judgement?

As imperative as it is to know ones Lord and master, yet none is judged for not clearly percieving the nature of God, yet. For even the disciples who had been with Christ on earth were reprimanded when they asked to be shown the father that their wondering would cease of the parable. And as Jesus answered the, He that has seen him has seen the father, for he is in the father and the father is in him, and that he and the father are one, the self same person.

It may take some of us longer than others, and we may be with Jesus many years and yet fail to recognise him as our father who art in heaven. But then you all must recall that blasphemy against the father and the son can be forgiven.

On a personal experience, when I once struggled with the Lord being one as oppossed to the trinity doctrine, it was revealed to me in a dream that the trinity is actually of the ancient serpent, that is called the devil. In the dream, it was a very ancient time and I was shown five great serpents fall upon the earth. The earth was one side sea and the other was rocks with a slim belt of the beach. There was no vegetation to shown. On this belt the five great serpents lay and then the two swallowed two from head to tail as the other remained by himself. The ultimate number ended as two who had swallowed their partners, and the other accomplising three. This dream I recieved when I had asked in prayer from whence the trinity came about.

The rest of the mystery is thus. The throne of Lucifer was formulated in image as that of God in heaven. Man was no the first created in the image of God. Thus as a replica of God and his throne, even in attributes Lucifer had sevens, but his were the image and not the actual powers. His throne also was on the extreme end of heaven opposite from that of God. Then also Lucifer himself was required to worship at God’ s throne at the appointed seasons, but at other times he was to be on his throne discharging duties on God’s behalf. Akin to how Moses was intructed to relegate power to the 70 elders of Israel. But Lucifer became concieted in his glory as the Cherub that covereth=image of the Lord and his throne, to cover here means represent and not protect, for God never required to be defended by any of his creation. He also became envious of the adoration and worship at God’s throne, for his was an exact copy of God’s in pattern and assembly, yet they worshipped not at his as was the law. Many years latter, this enactment replayed in the matter of Jerusalem versus Samaria. For the centre of worship being singular at God’s throne is the ancient root of controversy. Any how, that is a narrationfor another time. Now around God’s throne are the four living creatures, and the 24 thrones of the elders. This is engraved in the palm of man, as the hands of God, that the phallages of mans fingers are 24 on the fingers and 4 on the thumbs. It also prominences in the weekly cycle per lunar session. Thus too was the throne of Lucifer, to whom the blessing of wisdom was first granted, albeit he abused the same. His four leading generals apparently partook with him in his folly and thus they composed the five leaders of the great rebellion. This is the origin of the five pointed occult symbols. Upon earth, they reinvented themseves, with the generals pairing up and thus was the trinity formed.

This trinity seeks to supplant the worship of the one God, as it is witnessed of the vows of Lucifer, how he has sought to place his throne to replace that of God. The Lord in opposition to all such attempts placed it clearly in law that he is eternally one Lord. Thus when one forgets this law and percieves God in any other manner, they are falling in to the greatest, oldest and unrenviable deception. For he who returns as a trinity they would recieve and reject the Lord God creator of all that there is.

In the Scripture above, take notice of the fourth line where God the Father calls the Son (Jesus), God. Then God the Father, speaking regarding the Son says:

“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,

and the heavens are the work of your hands.

They will perish, but you remain;

they will all wear out like a garment.

You will roll them up like a robe;

like a garment they will be changed.

But you remain the same,

and your years will never end.”

The verse above would show Jesus as the creator and who can lay the foundations of the earth and create the heavens but God?

How about the following Scripture:

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.”

We know that “The Word” is a designation of Jesus and the Scripture says that he was in the beginning with God and that he (the Word) was God. So the word (Jesus) was in the beginning with God and he himself is God.

What do you think about these scriptures:

“Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness,”

Notice in the verse above God is described as “Us” and “Our,” As in, “Let us” make man in “Our” own image. “Us” and “Our” would infer more than one, would it not? This is what is meant by the saying “The Lord our God is One God.”

“And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.”

Again, in the verse above, in reference to God the word “Us” is used, “the man has become like one of “Us,” meaning more than one.

“Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”

Here again, in reference to God going down to confuse their language, the Scripture when referring to God says, “Us.” Let “Us” go down and confuse their language.

How about this one:

“While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”

Here we have both the Father and the Son present as two individual persons of the Godhead.

How about the following:

“I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”

Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

The Jews knew who Jesus was claiming to be when he said, “I and the Father are one.” And notice that Jesus didn’t deny it, just as he did not deny that he was God in the following Scripture:

“Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

If Jesus was not God, then he would have had to have rebuked Thomas for referring to him as God, would he not?

I could go on and on with this, for Scripture proves it again and again, but I think you get the gist of what Scripture is claiming. The Father is God and Jesus is God. The Lord our God is One God.

dmcal
Read the Post that is above you now i just posted. And all these you sent. Why are you trying to convince me that God is ONE GOD. I believe it. But NOT IN 3 PERSON”S – that will not fly nor make sense.

This is where you are incorrect. You are claiming that Jesus is God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. While it is true that all the fullness of the deity dwells in him bodily, Jesus, being God, was one person of the Godhead. How do you explain Jesus speaking to the Father? When Jesus was on the mount of transfiguration with Peter, James, John, Moses and Elijah, a cloud enveloped them and they heard another voice say, “This is my Son with whom I am well pleased, listen to him.” This was not Jesus speaking, but the Father. Then you have Jesus being baptized and you have the Holy Spirit descending in the form of a dove and the voice of the Father from heaven speaking, having all three persons of the Godhead present.

There are just too many examples to list here of Jesus speaking to God the Father as another person of the Godhead. What did Jesus say after he resurrected? He told Mary not hold on to him because he had not yet ascended to his Father in heaven. When Jesus takes the scroll out of the hand of the Father, is he taking it out of his own hand? Here’s another one, Jesus said to his disciples, “Unless I go away, the Comforter will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.” Jesus had to ascend back into heaven before he could send the comforter. This is again denotes two individual persons of the Godhead.

The only conclusion that one can come to after reading all Scripture is that, God exists as more than one person, which is what is meant in Scripture, “The Lord our God is one God.” You should look at the Scriptures that you copied from the ones that I gave you.

In the beginning was the Word and the word was with God and the word was God.

Here it is paraphrased:

In the beginning was the word, (Yeshua/Jesus) and the word was with God the Father and the word, Yeshua/Jesus was God.

While I don’t pretend to understand the existence of God, we can see from Scripture that there are multiple persons that make up God.

Hi Dears. Shall u instead of Jesus or “Father” place any nice type of Extra Terrestials who tried to inform us how can we became more spiritual and peaceful nation of Earth? Alright, they can be higher density inhabitants who with big effort can be visible and hearable in our 3D world.

we are body and spirit. each has a density. we are a combination of each. when we die, it is just our spirit. it is the glory of god that elevates us to him. the ETs cannot do this, they are just created beings like you and me.

To all
The absolute greatest division in the church today is the Godhead mystery.
It started with Cain to Nimrod, Egypt and Daniels 4 Nations and all these nations were pagan. The Catholic Universal Church took up where the pagan nations fell. That is just a fact. The dark ages produced a “pagan godhead” that satisfied the Pagans. It almost brings me to tears to hear such fables that has brought the church to this point. Just like today when Presidents say they are Christians, and Islamic religions both. Its happening all over again. Right in front of you eyes.

When you baptize in the “NAME” of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. It is the NAME not titles – The Father, Son and Holy ghost – name is Lord Jesus Christ. That backs up 1 Jh. 5:7 and many other scriptures.

Now you know why Jesus had to walk the Emmaus Road with His disciples AFTER the RESURRECTION and appear to them in Jerusalen. They listened to Him for 3 years teach them the great mystery truths. That just went right over their heads. Jesus said it was their traditions that blinded them. Till Emmaus Road. And Jesus went all the way back to Moses and brought every Scripture to their attention of who Christ was and identified every Scripture that He fullfilled.

Every believer needs 7 and 1/2 mile walk with Jesus and the Scriptures. And Just LISTEN to HIS VOICE and the SCRIPTURES. We would know the mystery of the Godhead. But the educated Pharisee’s,Sadducee’s were to intellectual to learn the great mysteries. They had it all figured out they thought.

When Jesus “called Himself” the “Son of God” and forgave sinners. That was just to much for them to take. They claimed He blasphemed and was going to stone him immediately. They did not understand the Godhead either. Their Messiah was GOD. Like today they would say that and then want to kill Jesus – do you see the blindness of just religious without a Revealing come to you.
They completely Missed Him cause they did not SEE HIM in the Scriptures and become a MAN to Redeem which is plain as day in Ruth and many other places. Kinsman Redeemer had to be flesh. He rose from the Dead and went as a Lamb on the Throne of the Mercy seat. With His blood to redeem.

Millions seeking answer’s and God reveals it to them right in front of them. But they put their faith in the multitudes more than in the Scriptures. Catholicism and her daughters. Rule Christianity today just as in Jesus day. That’s the truth of it all.

Marianne concerning you post way above. As Jesus was talking to the Father all the time.
Well we claim we have the Holy Spirit within us. And we do.
I talk to my heavenly Father all the time myself. Cannot go a day without talking to Him. He lives in me and we have good conversations all the time.
Sometimes I call Him Lord Jesus and sometimes He will Anoint me with Himself or I could say with the Anointing of the Spirit that is within me.
Its all the same Spirit.

Once we became a Brand New Creation as Jesus was. We know our Father well and we know His Love, and Mercy, and we Love to Read His word and Study to show ourselves good stewards. John said the Word was God in the beginning as Creator, Jesus is the Word in the New Testament. And the Holy Ghost is the Guide which knows all Truth and Mysteries. So He is the same as God and Jesus – Look up “By One Spirit” would be a good study for all of us.

You said:
“John said the Word was God in the beginning as Creator, Jesus is the Word in the New Testament”

But you keep leaving out the other part of the verse. Here is the Scripture:

“In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God”

So in the Scripture above we have two individuals mentioned, the Word and God. God would be referring to the Father and the Word we know is speaking of the Son, Jesus Christ. The verse states that both God and the Word are both God, but at the same time they stated as two persons. As I said in the earlier post, when Jesus ascended to heaven, he sat down at the right hand of the Father and makes intercession on behalf of all believers to the Father. This demonstrates two persons, Jesus who is sitting at the right hand of the Father and God the Father himself. To be clear, Jesus is not the person of God the Father and God the Father is not the person of Jesus, but they are two individual persons of the Godhead or better said, they are one God.

Another example demonstrating the individuality of the Godhead can be found in the following:

” ‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet.”‘

If Jesus can have a conversation with God the Father, then they are two individual persons. And since Jesus is also referred to as God, then there is only one conclusion, there is more than one person who exists as God, but they exist as one God. To drive my point home, while Jesus was hanging on the cross, the person of God the Father was seated in heaven. This has become a ridiculous debate because of all the Scriptures that support the Father and the Son as both being God, yet individual persons. But again, we are speaking with someone who opts for a spiritual interpretation on most everything in Scripture.

My advice to you is to unlearn what you have learned and read the Scriptures for yourself and take them at face value. If the literal sense makes good sense, then don’t seek any other sense, spiritual, symolic or otherwise.

Yes Moses spoke face to face with the Elohim of Israel; Yeshua, the one that was pierced, Isa 53; the one that identified Himself by His upcoming redemptory action: YHWH; behold the hand, behold the nail: I am!!!!!!

And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. Ex 24:10

Essentially the verse speaks more of what was unfer his feet as the subject of concern, for it was a corridor as of sapphire stone, rich blue without breaks, and its form also as the body of heaven. At first thought, one would assume the body of heaven to mean the colour blue, but the blue sky is not the point of refetence here. For we fortunately still have the Hebrew language of which these words are rendered ‘estem hashamayim’ meaning bone/structute of the heaven. Hashamayim itself also is derived from three words, the, fire and water, and as such translates also as the heating of the waters. For the waters of earth

And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. Ex 24:10

Essentially the verse speaks more of what was unfer his feet as the subject of concern, for it was a corridor as of sapphire stone, rich blue without breaks, and its form also as the body of heaven. At first thought, one would assume the body of heaven to mean the colour blue, but the blue sky is not the point of refetence here. For we fortunately still have the Hebrew language of which these words are rendered ‘estem hashamayim’ meaning bone/structute of the heaven. Hashamayim itself also is derived from three words, the, fire and water, and as such translates also as the fire waters.

This structure of the water cycles of the planet was it that was under the feet of the Lord in its exact duplication as the body of heaven, the constellation we know as Crux. The entire corridor upon earth in mimic to the Crux happens to be the great headwaters of Eden, and this duplication in its exactness ought to be preserved as the planet’s life channels in rich natural form as through it the hashamayim, action of the hydrological cycle is preserved upon earth.

Incidentally, as you posted this verse about the Lord having feet, I had encounteted in the folk lore of my ancestors how it was the feet of the sun that determined the location of the sacred lands and thosr that are forbidden ground. Of course the Lord is not the sun, but its creator, and thus where he plaved it to illuminate, that pavement and its structure comply with the body of heaven in its clearness. Its the path of the action of the Lord’s spirit upon earth. When this pavement is destroyed and replaced witj a ruby for instance, the flow of blessings upon earth is interfered with, whether in form of the natural water cycle, or other spiritual manifestations we may not yet know of.

Repairing the breach of this pavement is imperative in order to restore the health of earth and its occupants. But its terribly damaged and so is the nature of life upon earth. Only the Lord truly can restore them both. Its the salvation we still await, though we know not of its nature.

To all and Dmcal said – The phrase, “The Lord our God is One God” infers that God is made up of multiple persons.

My goodness Dmcal – That does not even make sense period. You said God is One God and then say he is 3 persons. Dear brother you are so mixed up it is pitiful. If God is ONE God in 3 Persons – He would absolutely be a freak of Nature. One God with 3 heads on his shoulders. Im getting ridiculous here to make a point.

God made us in HIS IMAGE – Spirit, Soul, and Body. ONE UNIT PERIOD.
I do not know about you all. But I have the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost living IN ME> now.

Try and understand this. —
Jh. 23 But the “”hour cometh”””, and “”now is”””, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in “””spirit and in truth”””: for the Father= spirit seeketh such to worship him.

question. How are we to worship the Father – answer – IN THE SPIRIT – TRUTH – Read below – God is a Spirit –

JOHN 4:24- “””God is a Spirit:””” and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. spirit =singular

Spirit and Truth = is the same thing just with a different MASK or Veil over it. I just don’t think many people understand what the VEIL means evidently.

1 Cor. 2:10 But “”God hath revealed”” them unto us “”by his Spirit””: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

1 Cor. 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the “”Spirit of God””.
Note – God and the Spirit are the same being – same person not no 2nd. person or personalities.

1 Cor. 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the “””spirit which is of God”””; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
The Spirit is not saying that God is a Spirit and then their is another Holy Spirit’
The scripture above “”does not say”” God and Holy Ghost are different. Especially not two different People = Person’s. That’s paganism.

1 Cor. 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Answer– Mans wisdom and intellectual aptitude CANNOT understand God. We have to listen to the Holy Spirit talk to us. — Or we could say God talked with me. Or we could say Jesus Christ talked with me – All the same person.

The Problem is – Manifestations vs. Persons. — God can manifest Himself any way He wants to. Cause He is God.

Gods whole plan was not about 3 person’s bringing salvation to the Lost.
It was about “”Himself”” manifesting Himself behind a Veil in 3 mysteries of manifestation. Just One Personality of God is all it takes.

How come the Jew missed him. They did not know that a GOD/MAN had to die for their sins. They were in complete darkness. Jesus was all God and All man. We look back and think and say it was soooo simple how could they miss Jesus Christ as their Savior. Well we doing it the same way today that they did. False Teachers that teach their are 3 gods= Balaam’s – With his stumbling block false teachings. Rev. 2

The 3 step plan of Salvation from Adam to Jesus Christ.

1st. Step= God the Father was OVER them. God knew mankind would fall. And the Loving God wanted mankind to know His Love and Savior attributes of Mercy and healing and power over fallen mankind.
That’s why he let His own Creation fall to prove his love for them on the Cross.
God had a plan -To Let man fall by his free will. But I will give salvation to those that want just my will. Praise God – So now God is Over them.

2nd Step to Salvation = Jesus Christ in Son/ship – God “right among them” eating and drinking. Getting closer to salvation. Then God shed His own blood and the flesh man died but not God= the Spirit. And Jesus Rose again.

The Flesh represented the Serpent’s bite that had struck all of man kinds flesh. =The flesh/human spirit was “the veil” that stood between God and Man. Christ rising done away with the serpents bite to humanity. And Eternal Life could once again prevail over Death. NOW you say how is God going to keep us from Death. We become “Son’s of God” in the New Creation. We go to the last and 3rd step of Salvation.

Not another person or personality but GOD living in them.
3. Then the Holy Spirit came “IN THEM” – we receive the Same Power that was in Christ which is the ONE Spirit of God that raises us up out of the pit of death, hell, and the grave. And we have a Faith that worketh by Love. And we are Citizens of a New Covenant living in the Kingdom of God Now. And understanding = The Holy Ghost = Word = God the Spirit = The anointing is all the same person. By One Spirit you are baptized into salvation.

Rev. 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Jesus was the Alpha of God and the Omega of God just as Isaiah said God was. Cause they are not 2 different people. They are the self and same person all the time. Just veiled in mystery when they come down to walk among us.
The Pillar of Fire was Talking to Moses – God veiled in Fire
God in the Cloud Speaking to Israel and Moses. God veiled by clouds
God coming down to eat with Abraham – Veiled as a Priest of Salem. a Man
God coming down in the Holy Spirit – veiled and invisible to sight.
God sharing His Word – The Word is a veil till it is understood
God In Love letting mankind Fall – was a temporary Veil till Calvary.
On and on and on. the same person done it all.
God can do anything. God Told Israel why do you limit the God of Israel. That is what this modern society does today. We limit His greatness and reduce Him to fit our little human minds.

that is a very good question, marianne ! the father. i just do not undestand why people try to make god,jesus, and the holy ghost (spirit) one enity. it is not possible for jesus to be his own father, when jesus was on the earth in the flesh he was still the son of god. how can jesus say; everything i can do is because i have seen my father do. jesus said on the cross; my god why hast thou forsaken me. there are hundreds of verses that talk about jesus speaking of his father. auggg…………………………!

yes. anyone who simply looks at the scriptures can tell that god,christ, holy spirit are as equals in the sense that they agree as one. their thinking is exactly the same. with one exception; only the father knows the day he will come back to destroy lucifer and his angels. i am dtill going to find that verse that specifically states; all power is returned to the father. but as far as god and jesus being the same person or i should say enity, someone who has never read the bible and then reads it would easily see that god and jesus are not the same enity. (i really don’t like calling god an enity, but the word is good enough to make the point ) .

You said:
“My goodness Dmcal – That does not even make sense period. You said God is One God and then say he is 3 persons. Dear brother you are so mixed up it is pitiful. If God is ONE God in 3 Persons – He would absolutely be a freak of Nature. One God with 3 heads on his shoulders. Im getting ridiculous here to make a point. ”

Beacon, do you ever quote exactly what people say or post. Tell me, where did I ever say that God had three heads on his shoulders? You won’t find it! If you’re going to quote me, then do it verbatim and stop misquoting me. For the record, let me repeat, the only conclusion that one can come to from reading the Scriptures is that there is one God made up of multiple, individual persons, which is referred to as the Godhead. Even the word Godhead infers more than one, not a God with one body and three heads! Those are your words, not mine. If there was only one person to the Godhead, then the phrase “The Lord our God is one God” would not need to be said.

You obviously don’t come to your conclusions by reading Scripture, for if you did, you would ask the question, what does it mean when God the Father calls the Son, God? If the sons of Zebedee asked Jesus for the right to sit one on his left and one on his right, but Jesus answered them saying, “but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.” How many persons are there mentioned in that Scripture? Jesus is one person and God the Father is the other. It’s not that difficult Beacon! If one is sitting on the throne and the Lamb is taking the Scroll from the right of him sitting on the throne, how many persons are mentioned? The answer is, God the Father is sitting on the throne and the Lamb (Jesus) is the one taking the scroll from him. That’s two persons! How is it that you can’t come to a logical conclusion based on these Scriptures?

How can Jesus, who is God, sit at the right hand of the Father, who is God and be only one individual? Does this not demonstrate two individual persons? That is unless of course you believe that Jesus is sitting beside him self or that God the Father is sitting beside himself and is making intercession on our behalf from himself to himself? According to Scripture, I tend to believe that it is the person of Jesus Crist who is sitting at the right hand of the person of the Father and is making intercession for all believers. If you’ve got God the Father sitting on his throne and Jesus is said to be sitting on his right, how many persons are in view here?

Yes, you are correct, you are getting ridiculous, but you’re not making any points. Scripture clearly shows that God Father is an individual person and Jesus is an individual person and they are one God. Just to be clear, they are not multiple persons sharing one body, but are individual persons. Jesus can be in one place and God the Father in another place. The fact that Jesus can have a conversation with God the Father would demonstrate that they are individual persons, but one God.

“This is my Son with whom I am well pleased.” This demonstrates two individual persons.

By the way, I can’t remember if it was John or you who, but the verse which says, “Let us make man in our own image, in our likeness” is not referring to the “Our” as God his angels. The “Our likeness” and “Our image” is in reference to the God head. “The man has become like one of us knowing good from evil” is not in reference to God and his angels, but the words “like one of us” again, is in reference to the God-head. For Scripture states that God made mankind in his image, not in the image of his angels.

Your right, this is ridiculous, ridiculous that I have continued responding to such things.

Our human mind cannot wrap itself around the mystery of the Godhead, Father, Son, Holy Spirit. They are separate yet One; seeing through the eyes of a child makes it very believable without questioning how, what where=simple Faith brings Peace. Bless all here~

yes. arguing back and forth about god,jesus,holyspirit, being the same gets people no where. i think god sometimes looks down on all of us and throughs his hands up in the air, like we do with our children that just do not understand the point we try to make to them over and over yet they still do the same thing.

You are correct Susan, I have admitted that I cannot explain God’s existence, but I can deduce from Scripture that the Father is God, Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God and each are individual persons making up one God. Beyond that, I can know nothing.

It is wonderful to just behold each distinct person, Father, Son and Holy Spirit as they are and knowing them individually…

They each provide us everything we possibly need to be victorious in this life; we cannot possibly contain it! How glorious it will be to know them face to face in heaven. This alone is just not possible for me now to fully grasp.

But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like HIM, for we shall see HIM as HE is. . 1 John 3 v 2

You just limited God Ps. 78- Marianne – by you own human intellectual thinking.
I got one for you now. Explain to me how something Eternal and has always been Eternal have a beginning.
Then ask yourself how you was always in God a Eternal being. Without beginning or end. Before the Universe was ever formed God was. Can your intellectual conception explain God to me.
Beacon
I have the answer to it when you give up. And I’m not saying this with a bad attitude. Its good to talk about God and His word. We can never learn anything without hearing it first.

Dear Bro. John — I just read some more of your teachings up higher on the column. Yes indeed I agree with you. Very Good teachings.

I want to share this below with you and all who think it interesting.

Rev. 2:12-13 – The Pergamos Age. = thoroughly Married –
Ver. 13 Satan’s “seat”was set up. The Lord said to hold fast His Name in this age as in another age. Balaam Doctrine was set up and Organized. Eating things sacrificed to Idols. And it was a Great stumbling block to Israel. And yet also to Dark ages of the N.T church. You will notice that the Nicolaitan’s were hated by Jesus Christ. They called themselves Christian but were really of the house of satan’s seat.

So to the point here: This to me is where the Trinity doctrine took completely over the Organized Church. Universal Church. And Notice the Next age was Thyatira = meaning Dominating female, continual sacrifice. This church age knew the depths of Satan, 2:24 it was a false prophet church ran by a Woman Jezebel. That “called herself” a prophetess and satan had his church. Which “took away” the “name of Jesus” and imported Titles. And a 3 god 3 person system arose . That still has millions deceived and millions of good people in deception.

Question to you John: What is your take on this. I would like to hear your opinion on this subject.

I’m exceedingly greatful to the Lord God, that in this day I witness of His spirit, that is able to grant you the same understanding of Scriptures, wherever you are, as he has bestowed me.

Reading your posts in regard to this subject has been as mirroring my own understanding on the subject.

In regard to the Church ages, and the mystery of the Nicolaitans, and why they were hated of Christ, I would concur totally, actually having once read the passages and obtained the similar revelation. The Antipas, and one who was a faithful witness of God, refers to Arian, who oppossed the doctrine of the trinity at its introduction at the council of Nicaea, and in effect was the anti=against pas-father/pope. It was during this council that the trinity doctrine was elected on by majority vote, hence the spirit in prophecy had called it the doctrine of the Nicolaitans=victory over the people, which victory was decieving the people to work against the law and nature God. They introduced also many other stumbling blocks, of Baalam=false teacher, teaching Balac=Waster, chief of which was this doctrine of the trinity, which really is the throne of Satan, or rather where Satan’s seat is, which the trinitarian Christians called Fortified=Pergamos still abide to this day. Whoever overcomes these fortified false teachings of Satan through which he has gained victory over the people, is awarded rewards including a white stone with a new name that only the recipients can know, which apparently is the mystery of God unveiled contrary to the trinity.

So as you witness to this day, the trinity still confounds humanity, and unless one recieves that white/blank slate of a stone with the new doctrine of God written, they perpetually remain mind-boggled on the trinity. Let none be offended by these words, but rather awakened. For strictly speaking, we all were indoctrinated in the teachings of the trinity, and schooled on how to defend the same. For Beacon or I and others with similar convictions to write of this seemingly strange ‘new’doctrine is not ignorance of the basis on which the trinitarian doctrine is usually defended upon, but humbly I’d say, of deeper insights into the mystery of God as oppossed to the deciets of Satan. I once in equal zeal and condour chorused of the trinity as most of us are sounding here, but in God’s time was directed to clean up the trinity slate, and obtain that new name. Seeing that we are on these pages discussing these issues, and as lively as they are, let all be encouraged for our Lord has seen it thus to guide us into this major debate.

Whereas for some, we deduced the mystery of God as one Lord remotely only guided by the Spirit of God, to others perhaps it needs to be told and that oportunity is what God availed dear Marianne to develop. Otherwise how does people that once saw God’s feet develop into a full blown nature of God discussion?

Lastly Bro Beacon, and everyone else reading, as a test of the spirits, the greatest law in time will be used to separate the sheep from the rest of the field. And as on the two distinct positions the nature of God is understood, one can tell of equal minded=spirited brethren, especially when we all are resigned to either of the positions.

But dear brothers and sisters, remember the greatest commandment, and seek to comprehend what went about in Pergamos and why it was called where Satan’s seat is, in spite of it being one of the seven churches. And may we overcome the grave errors as espoused in Pergamos.

Yes it does Bro. John. and All who will listen dear friend. It is not arguing – It is called come an let us reason together. If you never heard a certain doctrine you need to hear it. Every doctrine was put in the Book of life for a reason. And really it’s even worse than that. Its Every Jot or Tittle is perfect in the Word of God.

Many Christians do not want to understand doctrines. Cause it could shake your faith and you would have to question other doctrines that go with it.

Like I was told at 22 years old. I had the person of Jesus in me or around me. But I don’t have the Holy Ghost cause at that time I had not spoke in tongues. My humble preacher and all told me that I would shake hands with all three – Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit and will give them a hand shake when I get their. They were out right false teachers but did not know it. I read the below and knew they did not understand the Bible. Or the Godhead.

Acts 36 -Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God “”hath made that same Jesus””, whom ye have crucified, “”both Lord and Christ.””
Now if all you do not want to believe ver. 36 just tear it out of your Bible. If you cannot explain it then it must be wrong. “””God made this same Jesus “”Both”” Lord and Christ””””. They are the same to me. I’m leaving it in my Bible cause I believe it. amen. Their is all 3 of them right in this little scripture. Jesus, Lord, and Christ – all one God. Lord=Father — Jesus Son — Christ — Holy Spirit —– Lord Jesus Christ.

ACTS 2:37- Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, “”what shall we do? = to be saved

ACTS 2:38 -Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the “”name of Jesus Christ”” for the remission of sins, and ‘””ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost””.
Well if you do not believe that. You can just tear it out of your Bible also. I’m leaving my Bible alone and let God be God. And Jesus Be God. And Holy Spirit be ONE. They don’t just agree into one. But are ONE John 5:7.

ACTS 2:39- For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the “””Lord our God”””” shall call.
That is a ONENESS meaning = LORD “”OUR”” GOD
The Baptism in Water is in the “NAME of Jesus” not names or titles.
This is the Apostles doctrine. In the very first Century and very start of the N.T era. Was they all wrong. I’m clinging to the Apostles who were instructed by Jesus how to Baptize the People – He even said in the “”NAME””. So this is another reason as I have said one doctrine led’s to another doctrine then to dove tails into another , and it just keeps DOVE telling all the way through. If the Doctrines do not DOVE tail together then their is something wrong. With that doctrine.

In the Great period before anything was. God was an Entity with purpose and ALL POWER and VISION. Some called Him the Cosmic One – Others called Him the GREAT SHIKINAH Glory. Others called Him the Pillar of Fire = He created Angels first complimenting Himself as God. As all gods desire worship.
Anything that was in the “thought of God” could be created by Him even Him knowing He would be the Man/savior and save his family from all sin . Hello. He wanted a family. God wanted a family to love and take care of. So He created the Heavens and Earth for his family to live in. And gave them the right to live how they wanted to. He did not want robots. But Humans = Sons of God that would Love Him back. You all was already created in GODs MIND before the foundation of the world. God knows ALL Things. And Jesus was in HIM before the foundation was ever laid. Along with HIS family. Manifestation is the Word we need to know. God knew before the World was ever Created that HE WAS the SAVIOR of the WORLD and all HIS children. And HE SAID IN SCRIPTURE that a BODY HAVE I PREPARED and it was done as soon as He thought it. Then He manifested it in the O.T and N.T as I stated above in other posts of mine. The shadow’s was Abraham eating with Melchizedek. That was God in Flesh body. Moses was made a GOD to Israel. Hello. The Man in the tree talking to Gideon. Was Jesus Christ. Melchizedek was Jesus Christ. Moses Paul said Had Jesus Christ in him. Sons of God. Just like us after the Resurrection.

So the concept of God before anything was created was He was God with Thoughts in the mind. Those Thoughts included Him being THEE Man/Savior and God for Eternity. What Else could God show His Creation that would be as great as “”” making Himself his own sacrifice” so His family was guaranteed Eternal life. Oh my friends this is truth.

How do I know this above. Its in the Bible stories of the Old and New Testaments.

I love all you people whether you know it are not. I’m not after no kind of following. My heart burns for you to know the great hidden truths that are here and now. I probably will never ever see you except for in Heaven. But I hope my simple little uneducated writings can help you some. That is my greatest Prayer and desire is to just help out. And yes most swim down stream but as Jesus and His disciples and Paul all had to swim upstream always to get the truth out. Against all odds that their might be a few that would believe their Message.

What says the law, that the Lord our God is one Lord! Not one God or just one, but one Lord! Please check up this law and whatsoever understanding you derive from scriptures, let it conform to this law. If it does not, then it is not the correct understanding.

Manifestations of God, as beacon put it, is indeed a great vocubularly. And let not anyone wonder how Jesus could reign over all heaven while he was just a child growing up in the time of his incarnation. For we have all heard the He is also known as the word, and no word from the mouth of God ever was in vain. All He may have had to do was speak his commands to nature and all would conform to the letter for the appointed time. And we forget the ministry of angels too, that there are those who delight in doing His will for all eternity and without regret.

Let us therefore not seek to supplant the law by our misunderstanding of biblical parables. Lastly, only the Lord can reveal himself to us and no amount of searching would do otherwise. A time soon will come, when this matter and indeed already is upon us, that the great test of the spirits will be based on the matter in questiion here. For any and all spirits that seek to relegate Jesus to any secondary positions, such as second of a mystical godhead, denying that Jesus Christ is the Lord, and there are not two Lords but one, that is the spirit of anti-christ, so let all treat this matter with great sobriety.

For Jesus Christ is Lord, and the law has no place for a second Lord, except in parables whose essence is to throw off those who are meant to be thrown off. Pray that these parables be unveiled unto you, and may you discern the spirits accurately from this day forward, for this is the one great test of the spirits.

I’m still asking for any quotes of scripture of anyone vision of the suppossed father, son and spirit as three separate persons, or even the father and son. Non to my knowledge is in record. Even John’s view of God’s throne witness only one who sat on the throne, and a lamb that signified that the character that sat on the throne was the lamb. Now a lamb was a symbol and not the real representation. Isaiah and Ezekiel’s visions of the God of Israel did not include second or third persons/entities/ Lords, but only one Lord and God surrounded by four Cherubims. And he does not change in that regard.

Pay attention therefore and resolve the matter in your mind.

By the way, the trinity position that most people resign themselves to, can anyone genuinely affirm that they obtained it from scriptural study, and not from taught doctrines of the churches, which largely was influenced by traditions of men and unsensible chatter.

I don’t want to start a litany of back and forth fire works, but, I would like to learn something here. Obviously there are distinct points of view about God, Trinity, Godhead, Three, One . . . . . I believe there is one God, and I think that is true of most if not every one visiting this site believes. Or, is it that some of you believe God is expressing Himself in three distinct forms? When Jesus is speaking of or to the Father, is He talking to Himself? An entity outside of Himself?

I believe all of it to be true, that God is all three AND each, distinct (Father, Son, Holy Spirit), are fully God in their own right with all the attributes of God, complete. And it is our human minds that don’t know how to comprehend that except that God is either this or either that. When, perhaps, God is both, God is all, and it is our minds that are reducing Him to fit our understanding. (???)

GOD is a dimension, an existence, in which the human mind can not possibly, fully, comprehend, understand, let alone explain it to another person. GOD exists, has always existed, will always exist. Time is also an invention of mankind to relay or explain events. Is there a past? Is there a future? Or is there always and only a now? I can not say for sure. Some believe there is only a “now” and that the past and future are happening simultaneously.

Perhaps, perhaps, GOD is like H2O. There is a body of water (the Father?), which can become ice, a solid form (the Christ?), which can also become steam, a more ethereal form (the Holy Spirit?). All three are H2O.

I don’t fully comprehend it, and that is where my faith comes in. I want to understand, but I do not have to fully understand to believe. I have experienced God in all three forms, and not once, did I feel that part of God was missing.

god and jesus and the holy spirit, 1= god the father 2=jesus the son of god, 3= holy spirit; the spirit of good, pure good. not our earthly sense of good and bad. god is not jesus, jesus is not god. god is jesus’s father, it is stated hundreds of times in the word of god. there is no way we can compleatly understand all in one except; they all agree as one mind. yet they are seperate enties. there should not be any problem with understanding that jesus is gods son, do you wish to know the problem, it is lucifer. he must love it when christians get into sometimes arguments about this. it makes no real difference, we half to go by what gods word states only. gods word states over and over and over that jesus is the son of god. anyone who simply will refuse to see this has a problem, they are allowing the enemy which is lucifer to cause division of christians. that is lucifers job. our job as christians is to see when the enemy is attacking us. and rebuke him. i am not refuring to any person that writes on this site. we all including myself, need to understand when the real enemy is attempting to devide us. we get caught up sometimes with the exact meaning of scriptures, and some scriptures we will never have the answer to untill we get to heaven. that is why i posted a short while ago; god himself must at times through his hands up in the air and say; whats their problem. just like a father or mother does when their children are told something over and over and they keep forgetting.

Let’s take the word “Trinity” out of the conversation and focus on just two examples to answer this question:

We all know that both the Father and the Son are referred to as God. Even in chapter one of Hebrews, God the Father calls the Son, God. And there are many more examples of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law picking up stones to stone Jesus because they recognized that he was claiming to be God. These facts are irrefutable. Though we cannot have an intricate understanding of the existence of God, we can come to a conclusion of certain characteristics of God based on what he has revealed to us in Scripture. Therefore, here are the two Scriptures to consider:

“To which of the angels did God ever say, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet” ?

In the first part of the verse, God the Father is in view and regarding the Son of God the Father says, “Sit at my right hand.” As I said, though we cannot fully understand God’s existence, we can by this verse know that there are two individual persons in view here, God the Father sitting on his throne, with Jesus sitting at his right hand, who is always making intercession for all believers. The context infers two individuals in view and not one individual as God, speaking to himself. Making intercession refers to Jesus speaking to God the Father on believers behalf. Does this sound like one God talking to himself or One God as two individual persons, one being the Father and the other as the Son being in the form of mankind speaking on our behalf?

“Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirit’s of God sent out into all the earth. He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne.”

In the Scripture above, we have God the Father sitting on the throne and we have the Lamb, who we know is a title of Jesus, coming and taking the scroll out of the right hand of God the Father. Is Jesus taking the scroll out of his own hand or is there another person that he is taking the scroll from? The conclusion is that, Jesus is not God the Father, the Father is not Jesus, but that they are individual persons making up one God who are in agreement with each other. So if anything, we can know that Jesus is God, an individual person and God the Father is God and is also an individual person, but they are one God. The Lord our God is one God. Let us make man in our own image, in our likeness, let us go down and confuse their language.

““In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.”

In Revelation, the vision was of the ancient of days sitting upon the throne. Then John really exclaims ‘ and lo’ because he was astounded how in the midst of this same throne a lamb as though slain seemed to stand. It was a kind of ‘powerpoint’ presentation, with a scene of a lamb that seemed slain appearing to stand exactly in the midst of the throne that sat the Ancient of days. Then the approach, of a slain lamb from the heart of that single throne to the right hand of the thrones occupant. No two individual but one Lord sitted on the throne, and literally a lamb that personified the throne’s occupant to be the lamb of God. Not another’s hand but only the Lord’s own would give us salvation.

Now as for your quote of Daniel, when you read on to the interpretation of the vision, you get to know who the son of man here represented. For indeed the fist Ancient of Days equates to the Lord God. But the son of man is interpreted thus, that the people of the Almighty God that shall overcome the earth shall be given the kingdom. Thus here the son of man did not refer to Jesus but was used to symbolize all children of Adam that shall ovrrcome and given the earth to reign over.

Only the singular Lord God seen in either of the visions, because there is no other God/Lord beside him. I think the pun has always been God’s humour., not mine.

You’re missing the point of what I presented. The gist of it is that, there is God the Father sitting on the throne and the Lamb (Jesus) is taking the scroll out of the Father’s right hand. My point here is that there are two persons in view here. To be clear, Jesus is not sitting on the throne while taking the scroll out of his own hand. The Father and the Lamb are two individual persons of the Godhead.

Dear Denise: you said
Perhaps, GOD is like H2O. There is a body of water (the Father?), which can become ice, a solid form (the Christ?), which can also become steam, a more ethereal form (the Holy Spirit?). All three are H2O.

I have to amen you on this one. I heard it years ago when in a my early trinity church. And a person told them the same thing you just wrote above. Different manifestation of the same God in different masks. Not Persons. Still ALL WATER just in different manifestations.

I use to teach my 3 children the Godhead this way. I would say if I could put a mask over my face and say it was a lion, Then I would go away and come back with a face of a Lamb, and then go away and then come back as the Face of Jesus Christ a man. That was simple and they never have doubted to this date as far as I know. Its the self and same person behind the veil of the mask hidden from the world. But not to the Believers.

My own experience – I Got saved at 22 years old – for two years they said I did not have the 3rd. person in the trinity. Cause I never spoke in tongues.
They had me so confused i prayed and read the Bible myself. And at 24 years old. I had one of the greatest dreams ever. I seen Jesus Christ in the middle of the air. Then Clouds were under Him and I looked and Great Rays of sun light were beaming over him . But their was just one person that I seen. And it was Jesus Christ. A voice said to me — The Sun rays were God and the Clouds were the Holy Ghost and their was only ONE PERSON Jesus Christ in the Midst of the other attributes of God. I have never ever doubted that dream. And I still went to a trinitarin church for 10 years total and they could never convince me of anything else. And I’ve studied now for about 30 years and cannot be swayed cause now I can show them the scriptures as well.

First, faith is the certainty of that which cannot be seen based on measurable, and achievable reason. Faith is the proove of the theory. So one cannot resign that its faith when the proof is unachievable.

Secondly, the mystery of God was unveiled when Jesus died at the cross, and thus the proove of what God is was given to mankind. Stating that the knowledge of God may still be unachievable is either to deny that the mystery of God is unveiled, or to keep back from questing it, for then God reveals himself to those who ask and seek.

Different versus of the scriptures separately seem to indicate diverse ideologies of the nature of God, and only by accomodating all can the correct vision be established.

Lastly, none ought to feel bad that they have not understood God for so long. For even the apostles had failed to recognise him. It helps to refer to Jesus witness of the nature of God however, for He witnessed that no man had seen God, so as to be an authority on His nature, except for Him, Jesus who was from the bosom of the Father. And the very last declarations of Jesus, after he had seen that rven his own disciples had failed to comprehend him, finally ditched the parable to bluntly declare that ‘ whoever has seen me has seen the Father, ‘ and ‘I am in the father and the father is in me’ and also ‘ I and the father are one=the same person’

It helps to understand the nystery of Salvation, and that of God as a narration with a plot, with mystery and theatrics and an eventual summation. Many versus of the scriptures in regard to God are the mystery and plot building up. The summation was in the words of Christ that He and the father were the same person, hence there was no other ‘ father ‘ aside to be shown Phillip, but that whoever had seen Jesus must know they had seen also the father, for he was that father.

The trinity doctrine is the best example of an oxymoron that ever was. It does not reflect reason and cannot be believed because faith employs reason, and that which is not based on reason is a deception.

As a test of the spirits , its not necessarily of humans but really of spirits. When for instance ever one gets a dream or vision in which they see a trinity, know for certain that such a vision or dream is given by spirit of anti-christ, and is not to be of any concern to those who abide in truth. Even as God’s children, the devil whispers to tempt us off the right track but he always has to signify his antichrist spirit. To the ignorant of this test, they are decieved in thinking the spiritual suggestion is of God while in reality it has the devils mark. Remember this test of the spirits, but first know the first and greatest commandment, for the test is based on this law.

Dear Bro. John — I just read some more of your teachings up higher on the column. Yes indeed I agree with you. Very Good teachings.
I want to share this below with you and all who think it interesting.
Rev. 2:12-13 – The Pergamos Age. = thoroughly Married –
Ver. 13 Satan’s “seat”was set up. The Lord said to hold fast His Name in this age as in another age. Balaam Doctrine was set up and Organized. Eating things sacrificed to Idols. And it was a Great stumbling block to Israel. And yet also to Dark ages of the N.T church. You will notice that the Nicolaitan’s were hated by Jesus Christ. They called themselves Christian but were really of the house of satan’s seat.
So to the point here: This to me is where the Trinity doctrine took completely over the Organized Church. Universal Church. And Notice the Next age was Thyatira = meaning Dominating female, continual sacrifice. This church age knew the depths of Satan, 2:24 it was a false prophet church ran by a Woman Jezebel. That “called herself” a prophetess and satan had his church. Which “took away” the “name of Jesus” and imported Titles. And a 3 god 3 person system arose . That still has millions deceived and millions of good people in deception.
Question to you John: What is your take on this. I would like to hear your opinion on this subject.
God bless – Beacon

Beacon, Johnwaltz777, and John, I appreciate all your views. To me it doesn’t seem so much that lucifer is pulling us apart . . . as Marianne even noted, look at how much discussion of God is ongoing here. (And it all started with His feet.)

We all care, we are all earnest seekers and believers. For me, sometimes my mind won’t leave me alone and so I will ask out loud what is rambling around in my head –

Just as people were about to stone Him, in John 10:30, Jesus states, “I and my Father are one.”

It is difficult to quote one piece of scripture, when, in order to have a more full or complete understanding one needs to take in all scripture (even then, our human minds can not fully comprehend) . . . . .

It just seems to me that God is all … of this. Jesus is the Son of God and He and His Father are One (and the same) The mind may never fully grasp it. However, the heart knows. I have experienced all three (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) and each, to me, are fully God. I may not be able to fully explain my experience to others – though some times we feel that we need to in order to validate what we “know” –

I do know there is more to KNOW. God is more patient than I, and I keep trying. I really appreciate all of the passion that all of you share with. It resonates deep.

Faith, for me, fills in the holes, going forward, where I may have no understanding. But it is not a “blind” faith, it is based on past experience, even if I can not explain it to others. There is a “Truth” I have experienced, (more than once) and I will spend the rest of my life here on this earth devoted fully to better understanding and (to the best of my ability) in service.

Thanks Beacon for that testimony. The visions/dreams of God trully enthrall me always as in them one is able to discern what spirit was guiding the vision. For the spirit of God will never testify any thing else but that Jesus Christ is Lord, being the visible image of the otherwise invisible , omnipresent God.

Really as you were guided in your dream, the manifestation of God as the father is the life force that enables existance of all there is. It fills all of the Universe and beyond. Its in all things. The renewing force of the fallen universe, by which God seeks to restructure us, is the holy spirit, that must dwell in all of the new creation to enable us achieve to the will of God. Both these ministries and manifesttions cannot be seen/ or touched, but they are centred in the Lord Jesus Christ. As the suns rays reach us and we feel warm, and thereafter the warmth enables the cycle of renewing life through clouds that bring us the refreshing rains, yet none of these are by themselves without the actual sun itself. In comparison, although unideal, Jesus Christ is that body called the sun of righteouness who is the visible entity of the great influence totally called God Almighty, and that cannot be separated for it is one.

John with 777 is not me. I sign only as John.

I’ve commented on Pergamos in reply above. Thyatira and Jezebel must refer to the increased apostasy that developed in the church, with worship of idols and baalim increasing, yet the church had charity and faith, but more works rather than patience.

Amen to your summations and may we all keep seeking until we find. In deed, whatsoever positions or doctrines we may seek to espouse, do we not all do it in the spirit of sharing, sharpening one anothers wits? For eventually only the Spirit of God can convict. None of us came to this earth with any knowledge, but we have all gained much through sharing.

As you mention you have had interactions at diverse times and means with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, please share on the manner of interactions when you are composed and feel not shy. For we are nit here in judgement but to share in hope of encouraging one another. But do not be pressured if you feel otherwise about personal testimony.

In my case, as the matter of God’s nature troubled my mind for many years, as what I understood from the bible seemed estranged from the doctrine I had been taught, when I realized that God was the One Lord Jesus Christ, and was convicted of that position, I prayed and asked the Lord from whence the trinity confusion came about and the fist answer was in dream form, and thereafter much in revelation.

I would advise all who need this answer, or confirmation to just ask in prayer and certainly the Lird will answer them. Then perhaps they too can share their testimony.

my intent with lucifer wanting to cause devision between christians should be very clear. that is the enemy, we must keep our guard up when we get into dicussions about gods word that we do not start tearing each other apart because of slightly different views of scripture. if you are new to this site, i apologize for not making what i state more compleate. lucifers only purpose is to try and pull apart his enemies. which is anyone who is a follower of god and christ our lord. we must understand this is his purpose and sometimes we get into some heated topics. myself included. yes it is very good that we speak together on this site about the scriptures. but lucifer automatically tries to make us get upset at someone’s point they are trying to make. that is lucifers purpose. every seasoned christian knows this. hope you understand now the meaning i was trying to convey.

i am not disagreeing with you marianne, i am simply stating that we are all christians here, lucifer knows what we debate here, and you know as well as i do he will attempt to use some of our discussions against each other. you know what i am speaking of.

The trinity concept is wholly pagan and was not shared by Yeshua and His apostles. There are two of them, Father and Son, ehad; a unit of one. Yah Father is pure Ruach HaKodesh or Holly Spirit. He literally showered the apostles with Himself when they were empowored at the Temple on Shavuot (“pentecost”).

Dear Denise and all – The answer is really pretty simple on Matt. 28:19 –
Just 10 days after Jesus told His disciples to baptize in what today is called trinitarian baptism. The disciples did just the opposite.
The disciples were all present. And Peter Baptized their Converts in Jesus Name. Acts 2:38. They knew exactly what the “NAME” meant when Jesus said the quote of Matt. 28:19. It was Jesus Christ that set them free and He was their teacher and God to them. I heard one message on Jesus Name baptism and absolutely knew that was true and went and got baptized over by the way Peter and the very 1st. church did it.

I checked out this verse and I believe it was said by Jesus and belongs in the bible. No pun entended.

I just wanted to interpret it for anyone who really cares to know what true Christian Baptism was and still does . Paul and all said “Whatsoever you do in word or deed do it all in the NAME of Jesus Christ. Even the history books will tell you for over 100 years after Acts people were still baptizing in the Name of Jesus Christ. Any devout learner or disciple before the N.T even started. Were baptized under their Tutor’s name.

John the Baptist did not baptize in the Name of Jesus Christ. Where fore it had to be changed to Name of Jesus Christ.

You said:
“The trinity concept is wholly pagan,and was not shared by Yeshua and His apostles ”

Tell me, what is your conclusion regarding the following Scripture:

“Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the [Holy Spirit] and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to men but to [God].”

It seems to me from the verse above, that Peter recognized the Holy Spirit as God. Notice in the Scripture above that Peter says,

“Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit”

Then he concludes with:

“You have not lied just to men but to God.”

In the verse above, Peter uses the title of the Holy Spirit interchangeably with the tile of God. Allow me to present the short version:

Ananias, why have you lied to the Holy Spirit? You have not lied to men, but to God.

Holy Spirit = God

Here’s another thing to consider, Jesus said:

“And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.”

This is my thinking on the subject, anyone who is not God is a created being and has a beginning, whereas, the Godhead has no beginning or ending, but is eternal. Therefore, if one says that the Holy Spirit is not God, then I would have to put the Holy Spirit in the created group, because if you are not God, then you had to have had a starting point. That being said, I find it very difficult to believe that the Holy Spirit is not God and that because he indwells all believers and as the Scripture above shows, all manner of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven and anyone who speaks against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven. Therefore, how can the Holy Spirit not be God?

Ok, let’s remove the word “Trinity” because, I don’t like it either. In the Scriptures, we have Jesus coming up out of the water after being baptized (that’s one individual), at the same event we have the Holy Spirit descending from heaven in the form of a dove landing on Jesus (that’s two individuals) and then finally, we have the voice of God the Father from heaven saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” That’s a total of three distinct individuals present at the same time, Father, Son and Holy Spirt.

By the way, according to the Scripture, God the Father was not the one who brearthed on the disciples, but it was the Lord Jesus who said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.”

“The hearing ear and the seeing eye, The Lord has made them both” (Proverbs 20:12, NKJV).

Who is The Lord in this passage?

Is that Jesus?

No.

Reason: The Spirit had not yet overshadowed Mary (conception).

The Word was born of a virgin. The Word became flesh – given the name Yeshua (Jesus).

Yeshua is God’s Son – who was born by the blessed virgin, Mary.

The verse that I would sight is 1st John 5:7 (NKJV).

“For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one” (NKJV).

This verse is much debated, questioning if it was within the original letter written by John. It is such a heated debate by Scholars that bringing it to this discussion becomes a problem not a more helpful to uncovering a answer.

However – I think 1st John 5:7 supports the unity of the Father, the Word and the Spirit “in the beginning” before the Word became flesh and dwelt among us (John 1).

John gives a clear word picture of God the Father and His Son as the Spirit of Truth gave John the words to write.

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life— the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us— that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. And these things we write to you that your joy may be full” (1st John 5:1-4,NKJV).

“And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life” (1st John 5:11-12, ESV).

“And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life” (1st John 5:20, ESV).

Here is another version of the same verse.

“We also know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding so that we can know the True One. And our lives [L we] are in the True One and in his Son, Jesus Christ. He is the true God and the eternal life” (1st John 5:20, Expanded Translation).

Any wonder why the foolish virgins did not have enough oil in their lamps when the cry is heard, awakening them? (Matthew 25:1-11).

One reason – They don’t comprehend that the Word is alive and not just in print. They don’t “know” (close, personal relationship) Him or the the One who sent Him.

They also do not know His treasure, which is critical to have a relationship with Him.

They don’t know that His blood is alive and by His blood we overcome the evil one (Revelation 12:11).

Now – please see the composition of God the Spirit.

We may better understand the unity of the Father, the Word and the Spirit as this passage is evident when Yeshua walked upon the earth and when He returns.

The Word was made flesh, amounted, filled with the Spirit, sent to redeem us out to the hand of the devil (1st John 3:8).

“There shall come forth a shoot from the stump of Jesse,
and a branch from his roots shall bear fruit.

And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him,
the Spirit of wisdom and understanding,
the Spirit of counsel and might,
the Spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord.
And his delight shall be in the fear of the Lord.

He shall not judge by what his eyes see,
or decide disputes by what his ears hear,
but with righteousness he shall judge the poor,
and decide with equity for the meek of the earth;
and he shall strike the earth with the rod of his mouth,
and with the breath of his lips he shall kill the wicked.
Righteousness shall be the belt of his waist,
and faithfulness the belt of his loins” (Isaiah 11:1-3, ESV).

Reason: The Spirit had not yet overshadowed Mary (conception).The Word was born of a virgin. The Word became flesh – given the name Yeshua (Jesus).Yeshua is God’s Son – who was born by the blessed virgin, Mary.The verse that I would sight is 1st John 5:7

How about in the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and that word was God? Does that sound like at the virgin conception? Who really is Jesus? If he was David’s son, in David’s lineage, why does David call him ‘my Lord’, and did David have two Lord’s over him? The Lord who said unto David’s Lord was one and the same.

There are three that bear witness on earth and these AGREE IN ONE. But of those in heaven, they are ONE. Not about agreeing but just essentially being ONE.

Second, please read two translations of the same passage in Ephesians, which is a post resurrection essay.

“There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;

one Lord [Jesus Christ], one faith, one baptism;

one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all” (Ephesians 4:4-6, NJKV). .

“[There is] one body and one Spirit—just as there is also one hope [that belongs] to the calling you received— [There is] one Lord, one faith, one baptism,One God and Father of [us] all, Who is above all [Sovereign over all], pervading all and [living] in [us] all” (Amplified Translation).

Third and very important.

“God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth” (John 4:24).

God is Spirit and this passage gives us an account of His presence before Elijah.

“The Lord said to Elijah, ‘Go, stand in front of [before] me on the mountain, and I will pass by you [for the Lord is about to pass by].’

Then a very strong wind blew until it caused the mountains to fall apart and large rocks to break in front of [tore apart the mountain and shattered the rocks before] the Lord. But the Lord was not in the wind.

After the wind, there was an earthquake, but the Lord was not in the earthquake. After the earthquake, there was a fire, but the Lord was not in the fire.

After the fire, there was a quiet, gentle sound [the sound of a gentle whisper/blowing/wind; or a brief sound of silence; a still small voice].

When Elijah heard it, he covered his face with his coat and went out and stood at the entrance to the cave.

Then a voice said to him, “Elijah! Why are you [What are you doing] here?'” (1st Kings 19:11-13, NKJV).

Next and most importantly this passage, giving us the fullness of The Spirit of God.

“The Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him [Jesus]
The Spirit of wisdom and understanding,
The Spirit of counsel and might,
The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord.

His [Jesus] delight is in the fear of the Lord,
And He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes,
Nor decide by the hearing of His ears;
But with righteousness He shall judge the poor,
And decide with equity for the meek of the earth;
He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth,
And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked” (Isaiah 11:2-4, NKJV).

The Spirit of God (all 7, which is completeness) is found within Isaiah 11:2-3.

Maybe we can better appreciate the Lord’s prayer recorded in John, regarding being one (spiritual unity) after reading and re-reading Isaiah 11:2-3.

Jesus and God were one by the same Spirit (all 7). Jesus was born of the Spirit and anointed by the same Spirit (post baptism).

Our unity with Jesus and God comes from and is by The Spirit. How else can man/woman (a Believer) be one with Jesus and The Father?

Why is it important for the Word to become flesh and be filled with the Spirit?

“The Son of God came [was revealed; appeared] for this purpose: to destroy the devil’s work [Matt. 4:1–11; 12:25–29; Luke 10:18; John 12:31; Rev. 12:7–12; 20:1–3]” (Expanded Translation).

So now, after all that – I now have more questions than answers.

Maybe the accounts of Jacob, Joshua, Gideon and Elijah can help me understand how they all would believe that they saw God with feet and lived?

They did not see Jesus. He was born of a virgin, Mary.

Are we to think/believe that Jesus was a “spirit” (with feet) before coming to this world (realm, dimension) as a human?

Was I once a spirit, living in a different realm (dimension) – then, sent to earth at my appointed time (conception) in order to live out my predestinated life without knowing this was all “pre-programmed” by God? That sounds like “New Age” to me and I don’t think Scripture supports that notion.

To all who want to read it.
The history of Rev. 2 and 3 Reveal the mysteries of satan’s take over in the gentile church dark ages. The False vine completely left the 1st. Century teachings to set up their own. This is why their is all kinds of confusion and every man today sees whats right from his denominational teaching system’s of men. And as it was in Jesus day so is it today. For 400 years before John the Baptist arrived. Their were no Prophets, and nothing was going on. The revolution of the Maccabees were crushed. And Israel was found wanting being slaves to the Roman system. Then finally United with Rome to destroy even their own Christ and Messiah . How many today see this exact same thing going on in the world and especially USA. Which use to be Christian nation. As Israel was in her day so is America in our day. The thrill is gone for the “Truth” of the Word of God in most parts.

I want to share this below with you and all who think it interesting.
Rev. 2:12-13 – The Pergamos Age. = means thoroughly Married –
Ver. 13 Satan’s “seat”was set up. The Lord said to “hold fast His Name” in this age as in another age. Balaam Doctrine was set up and Organized. Eating things sacrificed to Idols. And it was a Great stumbling block to Israel. And yet also to the Dark ages of the N.T church. You will notice that the Nicolaitan’s were hated by Jesus Christ. They called themselves Christian but were really of the house of satan’s seat. Pagan to the core.

So to the point here: This is where the Trinity doctrine (paganism) and all false doctrine’s originated and took completely over the original doctrines of the Apostles. This false church system said they were Jews but they were liars. = Rev. 2.

And Notice the Next age was Thyatira = meaning “Dominating female”, “continual sacrifice”. Notice “not continual Grace”. This church age knew the depths of Satan, Rev. 2:24 it was a false prophet church ran by a Woman named Jezebel. That “called herself” a prophetess and satan finally had his false doctrines and a man ruled over them with Pagan rituals. This church system took over the world and tried its best to kill the Little Flock of Christ true Disciples. And they done a good job trying but still could not kill them all.

Women where in many a pagan temple and treated as goddesses. To bewitch the people. Seduce them to false doctrine and pagan ways of living. We have that same system today and it has a woman in the Godhead. And the leaders of this great satanic force believes their “woman” can forgive sins and intercede for sinners just like Jesus can. Just pray to either one of them. Millions of millions are slave’s to her right now. Be witched by her magnificence. This goes all the way back to Nimrods day and His wife and baby.

Most every church system in this world today believes a part of her Babylonian doctrines. And they do not know its paganism to the core. One or two pagan doctrines can ruin the influence of any church. Or any man or woman. And or chase out the “Holy Spirit” when the people get complacent. The Charismatics of today have also joined with her. Wearing neck braces of death around their throat. I know it sounds tough. But people going to hell sounds a lot worse to me.

This system “took away” the “name of Jesus” and replaced Jesus name into Titles. And a 3 god 3 person system arose. That still has millions deceived and millions of good people in deception. How many really understand how deception creeps into every revival. And the poor people are taught anything and everything to appease them. Just give is all you got to do.
Our government does not care if you say – God – is with us. BUT if you say Jesus Christ is God watch out. They are making laws now to where we wont even be allowed to say Jesus Christ in public. Its already happening. You cannot even say a prayer over your food and then say in Jesus Name. This modern great church just picked up where Roman paganism got wounded Rev. 13. Replaced their man made gods into just “one father” and satan is still on his throne today. But not for long.

brother beacon, if i am understanding you correctly, you are refuring to people who pray to “holy mary, mother of god) instead of praying to god and asking in the end of your prayers to god ; “in the name of jesus our lord.” we are to pray to god and at the end of our prayers to god ,we ask this in the name of jesus christ our lord. if we pray to mary, the mortal mother of jesus instead of praying to god and ending our prayers asking in the name of jesus our savior. then anyone praying in that fasion is not praying (in the correct manner) to god. if this is the point you are trying to get people to understand, or at least part of what you are speaking of, i would agree with what you are stating here. please let me know if you agree. johnwaltz777.

Yea John 777 – yes I agree with what you saying. But to me personally. It is blasphemy toward Jesus Christ to pray to ‘mary” for forgiveness of sins. After all she is not the one who died for us and Rose from the grave. Their is no place in Godhead for another god called mary. That honor is to Jesus Christ alone. Thee only intercessor.

early in my life when i first accepted jesus as my savior and lord, i would pray to god but i did not end my prayers asking this in the name of jesus christ my saviour and your son. many many of my prayers were not answered. and i wondered and prayed to god and asked him; father why do you not hear me. then one day as i was reading gods word i came across the verse where it states; you pray amiss. that was long ago, and my eyes were opened instantly, god indeed heard me, and he led me to that passage. i agree with you beacon, praying to mary is not right, and your prayers will be amiss.

this is how i prepare to make holy water ; first; i use an empty glass container such as an empty cologne bottle, i clean the bottle multiple times, before even starting that i go into deep prayer and ask god to forgive my sins against him or any person i have sinned in any form against, weather it be by mouth, thoughts, or actions. this kind of deep prayer is not something you do in a hour or two, it is ususally several days, and i keep to myself and do not go out of my abode. then after praying in great feverent prayer i fill the bottle with plain tap water, remaining in deep prayer, i then take a very small piece from a corner of one of the pages of gods holy word, still in great continuing prayer i place the very small piece of gods word into the bottle and say in deep prayer this represents the holyness of god almighty, the water i first placed into the bottle represents the holy spirit of god and christ, then i take a steralized needle and poke my finger which i have washed many times in great prayers, i sqeeze out a single drop of blood that falls into the bottle making sure that nothing touches the drop of blood, and still in great prayer and supplications to god i say this drop of blood represents the blood of jesus christ the son of almighty god that gave his blood for our sins, and the sins of all generations before and after his death on the cross. then i place the screw on top of the bottle very tightly, then clean the outside again, then i place the bottle on a shelf, it is never to be moved unless you are going to use the contents, to sprinkle the walls,doors, windows, of every room where i abide, this must also be done in great prayer. i use this on a person only in great prayer and reverence of what has now become the represintation of god the father’s almighty power, the son’s blood shed for us all and the holy spirit. on a few ocassions i have used it on someone whom i know that are asleep and i am awair they need special healing or strength, or protection from evil. /////// where did i learn how to do this; in deep prayer, long ago. i was not raised catholic nor have i ever gone to a catholic church. so it has nothing to do with being catholic. and there is nothing wrong in my eyes with someone being catholic. i have had the same bottle for over 35 years and it remains in the same place only am inch of the holy water used. the piece of bible is still visible in the container. this is the first time i have ever told someone exactly how and where i know how to do this most holy practice. this is not something you go around opening every couple of months. and when you do use it it must be used in great prayers and supplications, prior to even touching the vial and then using the holy water then replacing it to where its special place is reserved for it to remain. ///////

I think your prescription of “holy water” is not supported by Scriptures and is a dubious application of faith, which may be more harmful (spiritually and physically) than we are aware.

You may keep your vile of “holy water” and hold a belief that it is blessed by Father God, in the name of Jesus, but there is nothing in Scripture to support the application of “holy water” and nothing regarding your or any human as “holy”.

A portion of a printed page of the Scriptures within a vile of water is also a concern, according to Scriptures.

The Word is alive (Hebrews 4:12).

“Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to The Lord” (Colossians 3:16).

“just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish” (Ephesians 5:25-27).

You probably know that the combination of those ingredients, as a prescription for “holy water” – is not found in Scriptures. But, the point needs to be made, clearly.

“For the worshipers, once purified would have had no more consciousness of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins…For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats [yours or mine] could [or can today] take away sins [heal, purify and/or renew]” (Hebrews 10:2-4).

“This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth” (1st John 5:6).

Regarding blood; by faith and only by our faith ~ His blood does everything.

He said, “it is finished” and therefore, there is no substitution and/or addition required or needed for cleansing, sanctification or protection by any other blood but His, thank you Lord.

How do we know?

Through the blood of Jesus, a Believer is sanctified, made holy, set apart to God (Hebrews 13:12).

Through the blood of Jesus, sins of a Believer are forgiven (1st John 1:9).

Through the blood of Jesus, a Believer is continually being cleansed from all sin (1st John 1:7).

Through the blood of Jesus, a Believer is justified, made righteous, just as if they never sinned (Romans 5:9).

Through the blood of Jesus, a Believer is redeemed out of the hand of the devil (Ephesians 1:7).

Through the blood of Jesus, a Believer has boldness [confidence] to enter into the presence of a God (Hebrews 10:19).

Jesus is the High Priest of a Believer (Hebrews 2:17).

The blood of Jesus cries out continually to God in heaven on the behalf of a Believer (Hebrews 12:24).

One more reference from Scripture –

Water is not applied for healing, but it is oil.

“Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of The Lord” (James 5:14).

So, why did I share all of this with you (and post below your reply)?

2 Timothy 3:16 tells us, “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness…”

Scripture does not support “holy water” (application by faith) as a means of healing or protection. This is not my opinion – it is throughout Scriptures.

Oil (olive) with a prayer by elders (mature Believers) is the perception given (James 5:14).

We overcome him (Satan and his minions) by the blood of the Lamb and the words of our testimony…” (Revelation 12:11).

where did i say i was “holy” in the tern you are refuring to? and the tiny sliver of the very edge of a page of the bible where their is no print close, where did i say that itorn a piece that had scripture on it? all i know is when the few times i have used it on people, they were asleep, and their suffering lifted. do you really think i said to them; i healed you? nay, i am but a tool of the lord, as all christians are. i need not to answer to anyone but god and his son. if you were a person in the wilderness and their was nothing to make oil out of, and such a person uses water instead, knowing that it is christ that does the intersion for us to the father, and such a person prays fervently for forgivness of their sins against god, christ, or any person, and such a person pricks themselves while in great prayer and reverence to god, and adds a drop of their blood which they state is to represent the lords sacrifice for the remission of sins, to the lord god. where is such a person in doing this in this order, going against god or christ and the holy spirit. can anyone say that god would not honor this water as symbolic of the lord and his healing power, what harm has such a person done? now, if such a person would go around saying this is my holy water, that i made, and that i heal such a person with, then i would agree the person was boasting that they are the healer, or protector. and the lord would be angry at such a person that attempted to say by their body they have healed others. /// i have done none of this, yet someone would speak as though i make myself like the lord, or desecrate the word of god. or some other such thing. and all of what i did was in secret where only the lord god was awair of.

You may keep your vile of “holy water” and hold a belief that it is blessed by Father God, in the name of Jesus.

But, there is nothing in Scriptures to support the application of “holy water” to anyone at any time within Scriptures, outside of baptism.

Even the water for baptism was not and is not considered “holy”.

There is nothing in Scripture regarding your, mine or any human blood as worthy to be associated with something “holy” when that human blood (mixed with water) is applied to/upon another person or an artifact.

The blood of Jesus is all sufficient when He said, “It is finished.”

A page from a Bible without print upon it is as insufficient as a page with print.

The Word is alive and active, sharper than a two edge sword (Hebrews 4:12), which is symbolism that is effective. A piece of paper from a Bible, according to Scripture, is not effective.

I’ll leave the remainder of my comment/reply as written, unless you’d like clarification.

DJ – I am certainly no expert here on scripture, nor will I portend to know anything of certainty about anyone else’s relationship with the Lord or their practices.

Regarding holy water, there is a reference in the Bible to holy water – Numbers 5:17 “And the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel; and of the dust that is in the floor of the tabernacle the priest shall take, and put it into the water:”

in all my years of reading god’s word, i never knew that holy water was mentioned, or i read right over it and did not even see that verse, and what the subject that is mentioned about the reason of the woman and her husband. thank you for providing the book and verse.

Packer’s book is available used on Amazon. It is a classic, read by many Seminary students and on the shelf of most church libraries.

For over 40 years, J. I. Packer’s classic has been an important tool to help Christians around the world discover the wonder, the glory and the joy of knowing God. In 2006, Christianity Today voted this title one of the top 50 books.

Who will ascend into heaven…. that is to bring Christ down, that we may see and count him ? Or go down to hell, that is to raise up the Christ? God’s own hand delivers the eternal knowledge and salvation.

What I’m saying to all is this; that is simple to know God for who he is. And it will not cost you money. Just get down in prayer and request that He reveal himself unto you. Its the covenant that this He will fulfil.

I’m not against books, but I did seek with books in the past, on the mystery of God, and what I found mostly was the various authours’ opinions land mostly they will conform to the Trinity doctri ne, which is the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, the most decietfully place stumbling block of all time, for the Trinity, without mincing words, is where Satans throne is.

I prefer to buy that which is not costed in money. Besides, I’m always for that the word of God should always be free, as it is here at Marianne’s blog. That way, even Lucifer, as Johnwaltz777 testifies, can afford a peak at proceedings, and even throw an odd spanner in the works.

In the spirit if freedom, could you please tell us what you found remarkable about the book you link to, seeing as you have read it?

There are only a few authors that I have found worthy of spending the money (used not new) and the time reading their “thoughtful” books.

Packer is one author that is worthy of reading and this is his best work. He will express a complex thought more completely and with more fullness than anyone I know. This is a mark of very good theology.

There is another author that knows Scriptures. Derek Prince understands Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew.

His books (all of them) are exceptional because he references Hebrew and Greek word meanings as he discusses passages within a particular subject.

This recorded message covers one of the most important, critical messages in the Bible.

Dear Brother DJ and all. I would rather have a REAL Prophet with “Thus saith the Lord” than all the theologians their is. Now I’m not saying that I do not read from theologians as I have. But once you sit under a Prophet their message speaks for itself along with their life and conduct. Thus saith the Lord cannot be compromised. That is why they were always hated and usely killed by the theologians in the bible. No gray area in a “thus saith the Lord”. Amos. 3:7 – — Apostle Paul had to go into Arabia to “Unlearn” everything that he was taught by his tutor theologian. Paul was sure of what he said and had the power God behind him to prove it. Yea indeed. Jesus took over his education of the word. And revelation poured out of Apostle Paul and no one could hardly understand anything he said. But the little flock understood. As the Holy spirit today for us.

But for sure Im not advocating to never listen to Theologians. I kind of feel the same way John posted. I would like to know their ABC’s before I would start reading a thick book about their message. Most all are influenced by denominations. Every revival in the last 400 years have just brought in people that still could not rid themselves of the traditions of the past traditions of the church they were in. That is a fact. example – When the Pentecostal revival broke out in 1906. What happen. It split into 40 something different denominations with in 20 to 30 years. Now they all almost hate one another. Same with Baptist, Methodist on and on and on. Look at our modern Pentecost today. All liberal. Except one or two. And joining right in with the Great federation of Church’s and we all know who is going to run that don’t we. Can you imagine the 1st. century church joining back up with Judaism.

i could not agree more ! paul himself said; all things are lawfull to me, but i will not be brought under the power of anything. who amoust us would not like to have the anointing that paul had? remember that paul said; i have becheeded the lord three times that he would remove the thorn in his flesh, the messanger of satan to buffet him. but we all know why god would not remove the thorn. i believe the thorn was something paul keep doing that was not pleasing in the sight of god, and god would not take that away so paul would never become what we call selfrightiouss to the extreime . after all it would be very hard not to fall into that kind of self rightioussness, having the anointing he had.// it is very sad that we have all these different denominations, all having there ; do’s and don’ts forgive my spelling! and they squabble back and forth about the right way to live and worship god, i do not know about anybody else but when someone askes me what denomination i am i tell them; i am a simple servent of god.

Question-If ALL the fulness if God dwells in Christ Jesus bodily, as says the testimony, what portion of God would be left for other members of a trinity godhead?
Simple arithmetic may suffice. For All minus All is null.
Logical conclusion, There is no other component of God beside Jesus Christ. He is the Lord God, as in him dwelleth the all the fulness of God.

i do not think we can use simple math to explaine god, jesus the son of god and the holy spirit, which is the holy ghost. who can fathom the mind of god, saith the scriptures. if we go by the word of almighty god; god is supreme. the son is subservant to the father, in the manner that god is christ’s son. jesus said himself; everything i can do is because i have seen my father do it. jesus said; why callest me good, there is none good except the father. jesus said; father take this cup from me, but not my will but let thine be done. jesus said; father why hast thou forsaken me. jesus said; thou would have no power over me except it be given thee from above. jesus said; i must be about my father’s work. if anyone can say that jesus did not say these words, then the holy word of god is in error. and that is not possible !!! for god cannot lie.

Dear John 777 you said – if we go by the word of “almighty god”; god is supreme. -amen Now lets look at

Rev. 1:8 — I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the ALMIGHTY. Greek – he who holds sway over all things; the ruler of all; almighty: God

Rev. 8:4 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, “‘Lord God Almighty””, which was, and is, and is to come. Almighty – defined in Greek says —- this title is given to: God, the Messiah

We Could go on and on and on. John 777 –
God is the Almighty. Jesus is the Almighty – All the SAME

John 777 – forgot to say That when speaking of Jesus as the Almighty. Its all the same as saying its GOD..So no matter which one you talking about God or Jesus its the same. Under the word Almighty
Beacon
PS I have confidence in you John 777 as a sincere brother.
The Lord will show you these things dear brother. Seek it and see if it does not come to pass.

Since you posted it I wanted to share something here, which most people read right over not recognizing what Jesus is implying with his answer.

You wrote:
” jesus said; why callest me good, there is none good except for the Father”

Here is the full Scripture:

“As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.”

First of all, the actual word used is in the verse is “Theos” translated “God.” The word for “Father” is not used in the verse as you listed it. Second, in Jesus’ response, he is not rebuking the man for calling him good. On the contrary, what Jesus was saying to the man was, God alone is good and if you have called me good, then realize who you’re speaking to.

calling god , father, is the same, espically when it is jesus stating something about his father. when we write or talk to people about scriptures that are around us, we ususally are talking from remberence of what we have read in gods word, ( at least i do) if i wished to be critical for instance; some of the words you just used are not the same as the king james bible, not the revised one. but i am not trying to be critical here to you, now, their are scriptures in gods word that must be stated exactly as written down, we all know this; sometimes leaving out the word :after’ or “before” make a huge difference in many scriptures, and the holy spirit that resides within us brings the exact words into rememberance to us espically when dealing with someone that is a babe in christ or knows nothing of gods word at all, this happens to us in our daily lives with conservations with people dace to face./ now maybe some people carry the word of god with them whereverthey do and when someone askes them a question they open the bible and read the scriptures to whatever person they are in contact with at that time. but i beleive almost all of us do not actually speak to people in our daily lives and every time someone askes them something they open the bible and state the vrs,/ when it is critical the holy spirit gives you the words to say. you do not even take thought at those times, the scriptures just come automatically to you when that happens.

Yes, I agree that it was God the Father that was in view, but my point was that, the word for Father is not found in the verse. I’m not concerned about the different translations, but the actual Greek word that is used and that because it doesn’t matter what translation it is because they are all derived from the same Greek words. The use of words in the different translations are just the perogitive of the translator, so I am only interested in the actual Greek or Hebrew word. That is why I said that the word used is “Theos” translated “God” and not “Pater” for “Father.” In other words, the Greek word “Pater” translated “Father” does not appear in the verse. That’s all I was saying.

Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God John 8:4

john 17 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:

“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

paul also says

The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not. 2 cor 11:31

I’m gonna use the verse that you provided as proof that The Father is God and Jesus is God:

“Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, [and]Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.”

Do you see the word and that I have placed in brackets in the verse above. This means that Jesus is included in the phrase “The only true God.”

Is the purpose of your post to claim that Jesus is not God? If so, then I would have to direct you to the following:

“A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

I don’t see Jesus rebuking Thomas when he called him God, in fact he confirms it.

Here is another example:

* God the Father speaking about the Son:

“But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;

a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;

therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions

by anointing you with the oil of joy.”

He also says,

“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,

and the heavens are the work of your hands.

They will perish, but you remain;

they will all wear out like a garment.

You will roll them up like a robe;

like a garment they will be changed.

But you remain the same,

and your years will never end.”

In the Scripture above, notice that God the Father calls himself God also refers to the Son as God. Both words used for God the Father and the Son is “Theos.” Also take notice of who it is that God the Father says laid the foundations of the earth and who created the heavens, the Son (Jesus) did.

Very good thoughts indeed John.
If ALL the fulness if God dwells in Christ Jesus bodily, as says the testimony, what portion of God would be left for other members of a trinity godhead?
Simple arithmetic may suffice. For All minus All is null.

Is it not amazing, how, when you hear and believe that the Lord our God is one Lord, then All scripture that is written in that regard is unveiled, as when one that was blind from birth recieve their sight.

When such a person narrates of what he is now able to see, of the colour and diversity of nature, to the rest of those who remain blind, they cannot comprehend. Unless they too personally recieve their sight, and thereafter they too will marvel. Its that Christ who only can restore sight to such as we who were born blind.

Now to all I beseech that each resolve with Christ Jesus personally the mystery of God. For it was not in vain that its declared within the Greatest commandment.

The danger in entertaining the trinity, is not only in the non-sense of verbosity it makes, but also in the principles it entertains. For in any three persons, who mystically and illogically are suppossed to be one person again, there has to be a first, greater and superior who relegates the others to less positions. This implies that the lesser are not Lord over all, which mentality is anti-christ.

Likewise, when God is not one Lord but a ‘one’ family made up of multiple membership ,it opens the doors for this family of God to increase, in as including the mother of god, who is argued must be god too. I often wonder why they leave out the grand mother, and the rest of the family, for the mother of the mother of god too must be god, and indeed counting back the family is all inclusive. Counting forwards in that manner of reason, we must really all be god. Now this was the deception in Eden, that we would be as God.

It is the root of the great schism and of evil, when creation covets that which can only belong to the Creator, and they seek by nook and crook to make themselves God, first by multiplying him in their minds and ways, and thereafter adding others to the family and eventually themselves.

But it cannot be, and the trinity, and all other aspiring members sooner or later to join up will only be in the minds of people but never will apply to the Person of the Creator Father, our Lord Jesus Christ.

God, has many names and titles. In Zoroasterism, Ahura Mazda-Lord of Wisdom, has in total 30 titles. That does not make him 30 persons in one Lord, but rather 30 attributes of One Lord. God is known by these different names, as many as there are dialects and tongues of earth but that does not make him multiple. Many names of our Lord there are, the chief ones being the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, but He remains just the One, Jehovah Lord of hosts.

When we declare how we know God, that is essentially all we have to do. For no man can reveal God to another, nor books, for only He that came down from heaven can convict.

Lastly, when Jesus witnessed that He was the way, the truth and the life, where was he the way to? To the truth and to the Life. These latter two were attributes of the Father of life. Yet Jesus encompasses that too. He is not just the way, but also the destination. He is the way to the Father, as the Son of God, but strictly speaking, he is that Father-truth and life. He is the way to Himself.

For there is no mediator between us and our God, save our God who in the name of Jesus Christ is mediator through the eternal sacrifice , that redeemed us unto himself.

Jesus pointed to Pilate that it was Pilate who had said Jesus was king of the Jews, when Pilate had enquire d ‘Art thou king of the Jews, which in that language was ‘Thou art king of the Jews?’ Point here is that the scriptures are quick in semantics and that is how they were designed to be. The same sentence, such as ‘In the name of the Father, and of the son, and of the Holy spirit’, can end up meaning diversely to different recipients. The key is to apply the first principles in defining the latter. For had there been three persons, it would have read, ‘ In the names of the ……’ or ‘ In the name of the father, and the name of the Son…..’

‘The peace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Love of God, the fellowship of the Holy Spirit,’ with or without the conjunctive ‘and’ likewise does not entertain any multiplicity of God but rather defines the peace, love and fellowship being wished upon us, all being from God, whose titles being diverse the writer does not limit himself on which to refer.

Bro Beacon, the thorn in Pauls flesh was to keep him from ‘boasting’ his many revelations. That is what I understand. So the thorn in the flesh may not be evident, although its connected to that ‘boasting’ But its definately not about not having a wife, Marianne. That, if you search is traditional teachings. That which would silence Paul from declaring his many revelations was only his history as Saul of Tarsus. How could he dare declare revelations while only yesterday he persecuted the Christ and his people. Now converted, he would keep a low profile amongst believers, in spite of his close connection to Christ through many revelations. Not having a wife ought to have been a plus not a thorn, really, as it released him from earthly encumberenents. Anyway, thats my understanding.

are you in your many words above trying to say; that jesus is god? i am not talking about how god, christ (the son of god) and the holy spirit (holy ghost) agree as one, have the exact same thought’s as to say. but are you saying jesus is god? / let us not go into the godhead part, because that is what the three agree as, i already know that./ to make it as simple as can be made; are you saying jesus is god . because jesus cannot pray to himself. (wondering).

If I was to say any thing off the testimony of Scripture, and use many words to speak contrary to what is, disregard all such arguments.

Its the scriptures, that say all the fulness of all that is entitled God dwells in Jesus Christ, and admonishes us to disregard all other arguments to the contrary.

The father, the son and the holy spirit DO NOT agree in one, but ARE One. Its the water, the blood, and the spirit who agree in one, and thse are earthly sourced. Its not a comparison, but a contr-indication, for in heaven, the father, son, and holy-spirit are One.

‘Father, these things I ask for their sake……. for I know you always hear me…..’
Most of what Jesus did loudly, suchas praying to the father, that incidentally was in him….. , he did for the sake of teaching us, disciples how to present ourselves before God. That is before Him.

‘Whatsoever you ask the father in my name….’ The father Jesus Christ, for the father is the sole contender and holder of that name too, Jehovah Is Salvation.

God eternally One Lord, without beginning nor end, has no equal and as such His equal,/son could only be Himself.

So yes, He prayed to himself, so as to teach us how to pray and yes, in so many words I testify that this is what I understand the scriptures and all of nature says. And I bear no doubt nor reservations in my mind.

I have posted and replied much on this topic because I know its gravity. Well namesake, you know we share the nane John with he that was the favourite disciple. The testimony in John, gospel and letters leaves no room for doubt as to that the word was with God, and that that word was actuallyGod himself, for John testifies verbatim that Jesus owned up to being the same one person the father they sought was. Snd that they were not to seek elsewhere for they had already seen him who was the father, in Jesus name.

Jesus Christ is The Lord God supreme, without father nor mother, the high priest in the order of Melchizedek. Only the Creator, God Almighty fill the order if Melchizedek, as only He has no Maker (father /mother)

I pray that eventually these basic truths will be renewed in every heart.

John, I witness the relentless zeal with which you defend that other position on this subject, and salute you. What comes to my mind is Saul who turned Paul. I’m not saying there is any persecutions onthis blog, but you catch my drift. Your time soon will dawn and you will as Paul defend, even unto death’s zeal, the other opinion that you presently wag your head at. All it takes is a Revelation when on ones usual business to Tarsus. For you love the truth, and so does He you.

john; i find it hard to understand this using one single verse from gods word; first corinthians vs.28; “and when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that god may be all in all”./////// this is quite specific.

Beacon you are so right in these points, the false church which is confussion or Babylon, that controling bewitching woman, Jezebel, has enticed the nations with her lies. She has in efect obliterated the names of Yahoshua and Yahveh and replaced them with titles and even some pagan deites’ names. She has also falsely claimed Israel’s place as the bride giving herself authority that will never really be hers, the false “Jews”.

2 Cor. 12:7 And lest I should be “”exalted above measure”” through the “”abundance of the revelations””, there was given to me a “”thorn in the flesh””, the “”messenger of Satan to buffet me””, lest I should “”be exalted above measure. “”

Pauls thorn was the “” abundance of the revelations”” Yes many men “could not contain” the “abundance of the Revelations as Paul did”. It would have puffed them up into a stuffed shirt. He knew it was all from Jesus Christ and not his own mind. That’s why it took him 3 years or so to get rid of the Traditions of man that were killing the church of that time. Yea just like today. Many do not want to know the mysteries. That’s why the Prophets were hated. They had the revelation for their day. But it seemed so hard to believe. And the multitudes did not believe it. And most average men will always follow the major highways of ease. But they will not step in a boat and start rowing upstream to teach 5 people the truth. You will never be un-popular if you preach and teach to please the church and World.

And the simple little message which reveal’s the secret’s of men’s heart will never be popular. Unless you are called out and chosen. To knew Jesus Heart you would have to know HIS revelation by the Spirit. Are not we all glad that Jesus could control HIS anger, and see all our hearts astray yet still loved us.

How is it that you completely ignored the correct answer which is found right in the Scripture? According to the verse, here is Paul’s thorn:

“Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.”

The thorn in Paul’s flesh was that messenger of Satan that was sent to him, a demonic being to torment him and not the abundance of revelations as you claimed. The torment by the messenenger of Satan was to keep Paul from becoming conceited because of the surpassing visions and revelations that he was shown. It states right in the verse what the thorn was.

this is how i interpet it also. paul was doing something thet he knew was sinfull, (god would not approve of) and whatever it was god would not remove because it kept him from getting a really big head (as to say) that was necessary. or paul or anyone else like that would eventually think they were more holy then others.

Paul had been caught up to the third heaven, had received many visions and revelations directly from the Lord and he was given a thorn in the flesh, that thorn being a messenger of Satan in order to keep him from becoming conceited and pridefull because of those many visions and revelations. It’s as simple as that, for this is what that Scripture teaches. What from of torment that the messenger of Satan was performing on Paul, the Scripture doesn’t specify. But whatever it was, since the Lord is the one who ordered it against Paul, then we can be sure that it accomplished its purpose.

First of all, Satan was not tormenting him, but it was that messenger/demon sent from Satan who was tormenting him. And second, your reference to some sin that Paul was struggling with is conjecture, for there is nothing mentioned within the context regarding this. This debate is not so much an issue of error in interpreting this Scripture, but is one of gramatical error on your part. I’ll type it again:

““Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.”

First Paul proclaims that he was given a thorn in the flesh and then immediately following he reveals what the thorn was, which was that messenger from Satan. We don’t know what that torment consisted of, but we know that it was done by that messenger/spirit. On the other hand, the context tells us why it was done, that being to keep Paul from becoming proud, conceited, puffed up and that because of all of the great spiritual knowled given to him by the many visions and revelations.

This should be cut and dry. We should not even be debating this, as all the answers are contained right in the Scripture:

* Paul had exceedingly great visions and revelations and because of this ……

* He was given a thorn in his flesh to be torment, by …..

* A messenger from Satan, Why?

* To keep Paul from becoming proud and lifted because of those exceedingly great visions and revelations that he received.

Regarding all of those questions you posed, the Scripture is silent on them and so it would be pure guess-work on our part. But, I think that just having a demonic being in your presence would be unsettling enough, don’t you think. After all, even though Paul was an apostle, he was still a human being and I don’t know about you, but I would not want to have demonic activity going on around me, that dread of an evil entity in your presence. I say “demonic” because as I said, if it was a messenger from Satan, I believe that it would referring to an evil spirit. But as far as the messenger telling Paul how great he was, for one, that would not be torment as it would be aiding in Paul becoming proud and conceited and two, there is nothing in the Scripture that would support that, so again, we would be reading into Scripture what is not there.

“But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell.”

I beg to differ, as the verse tells us exactly what the thorn was. Here is the verse again:

“Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”

Paul’s claim: “I was given a thorn in my flesh,”

Identity of The thorn: “a messenger of Satan, to torment me.”

What is their a problem in understanding this?

Furthermore, since it was a messenger of Satan, I’m gonna say that the messenger is one of Satan’s angels, a demon. In any case, the verse states that the thorn was a messenger of Satan for the purpose of tormenting paul.

trorn in his flesh. listen to that again (slowley) thorn in his flesh. something in him, something within his own flesh, his own body. add; least i be exalted , least i be exalted, (do you see0? this is why i believe that paul was doing something within his own fleasly body, that kept bothering him, over and over, something that paul knew was unrighiouss. within his own body. ths messenger of satan, the messanger of satan, // when we as christians are trying to be as holy as possible (which is what we should be attempting to do always) we find within ourselves, within our selves, something we still do that we know is not what the lord would approve of. thats why it bothers us, why can’t we stop that, the messanger of satan is a voice that keeps telling us; see your not doing what is pleasing to god, (anyone getting it yet)?

John, the phrase, “I was given a thorn in my flesh” is a metaphor representing the torment that the messenger of Satan was causing Paul. Therefore, it is not speaking literally of some object piercing Pauls flesh.

yes I see it. paul in all his saintly character still had a weakness he had to deal with, and God allowed this so he would not see himself as perfect. then satan took advantage of this and tormented him with it, trying to make him feel guilty

exactly correct marianne ! ; lucifer does the same to all of us, who amoung us does not say in our prayers to god; father i still have problems with (such and such) forgive my weakness and help me overcome that which i do that displeases you. we all sin, everyone knows that, and ususally each of us has something they continue to do or think that they know is not what god would like. you understand the meaning of this. all christians should understand this also, we all have some thorn’s in our flesh.

That is exactly what the scripture in numbers is saying. Paul was human and was subject to the human condition. Paul has been put on a pedestal, by the Christian Church, in part, to the extent that his words are above those of Messiah and basically above those of every other writer in scripture. How many times have there been discussions where the words of Paul are used to try and overturn the Word of Messiah, because of “timing” or some other ridiculous reason. If the Christian Church understood what Paul was really saying in his letters, they would find that his letters are in lock step with and conforms to all of scripture. Paul was not a demagogue, but he has been portrayed by much of the Christian Church as such, in the fact that it has been taught, that he alone turned the meaning of following Messiah to mean walking and doing the exact opposite of how Messiah actually walked on this earth. That somehow, if we “do” the opposite of what Messiah “did”; if we now denounce the “way” that he walked in as being irrelevant now, that we will somehow find the salvation that He offered. That we are to hold fast to the words of Paul (which are for the most part misunderstood), but “walk” contrary to how he “walked” while here on the earth. How disingenuous it would be to “walk” in a certain manner, but teach others it is wrong to “walk” that way.

You said:
“Paul has been put on a pedestal, by the Christian Church, in part, to the extent that his words are above those of Messiah and basically above those of every other writer in scripture.”

This is not true! I will speak for myself when I say that, the writings of Paul are God-breathed, that is, his writing is what the Lord wanted him to write. That being said, I do not look upon Paul as the author, but the Lord, just as I do with the other writers. Therefore, where you say, “Paul’s words are above those of Messiah,” they are the words of the Messiah.

Peter recognized Paul’s letters as wisdom from God as well as Scripture and also stated that those who distort them are ignorant and unstable and they do so to their own destruction. So take caution of what you say, because since that was the case during their time, it still holds water throughout the entire church period. If you reject Paul as an apostle speaking on behalf of the Lord, then you reject the Lord himself, because Paul is conveying the word of God. See 2 Pet. 3:15-16.

This is why there cannot be open discussion of what is and isn’t going on. You know what I am saying but refuse to meet it head on. Paul’s teachings are true-Paul walked in the commandments and kept the feasts. Both are true. I am not the one denying that. The Christian Church knows what Messiah said and how he walked and yet they don’t do it and teach others not to do it. Why? You “should” know how Paul walked for it is recorded in scripture, yet it is the understanding of the Christian Church that he taught the opposite (contrary to what Messiah said and did) and evidently that is your position. I believe and honor the writings of Messiah and Paul. It is my desire to emulate them and walk as they walked. Only in Christianity is it taught that we are to walk the exact opposite of how our Messiah walked and how all of the other Apostles-teachers (including Paul) walked. Yah is not the author of confusion which is nothing less than what we have now as a result of this. You evidently subscribe to the idea that the WORD is “progressive” like most others. If Messiah the Word has been done away with, because of the progression of time, when will Messiah the Lamb (our sin sacrifice) be done away with, because of the progression of time? OH, wait; I think that has just about been achieved in the world. Welcome to a world (especially the Christian nation-America) of lawlessness! We have massive libraries to store the secular laws of the world, which we ascribe to, but won’t allow anything that even resembles a single law in our spiritual lives, to the extent that the Ten Commandments are seen as unnecessary, to the degree that they should be utterly rejected and should not be followed under any circumstance. All because of the misunderstood phrase “we are not under the law”.

Just answer one question for me. Why do you believe both Yahshua and Paul both walked this earth the same way right to the end of their lives, but believe they told and wrote to everyone else to do the exact opposite? If you cannot given a credible answer to that, there is no reason to discuss this.

Well if you read the scripture its pretty plain to see it was the Abundance of Revelation. Most people do not discern the heaviness and the responsibility of not making a error out of Gods word. The Prophet’s cried out – OH the Burden of the Lord before they preached their “Thus saith the Lord” to Israel. To miss and make a mistake could be hazardous to your health let alone your soul and mind that you let down God and the people. Paul was the only one with the full Revelation in his day. Others had portions of it. But Paul had the full responsibility to lay out the “whole council and taught the Whole council before them.

Pauls responsibility showing the great pressure he had to be under.
Acts. 20:24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
25. And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.
26. Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
27. For I have not shunned to declare unto you “”all the counsel of God””.
28. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of “”God””, which he hath purchased with his “”own blood””.
29. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

To be responsible for the writing of the 3rd. of the N.T writings went to Paul. Woe That was pressure, it brought great tribulation to him. Stoned a number of times. ship-wrecked. Bit my snakes. Journeyed where no men went. Setting up Church’s. Groups of men taking vows to kill him. And responsible for telling them ALL TRUTH. Yea I could see how satan would jump on him all the time. Paul was a mighty Strong man in Christ. And Christ chose him for his strength to get the job done. That’s my belief anyway.

Sorry for disappearing here for almost a day. I had some computer issues and needed to hook up another one. (Now, if I can only get the comp and printer to talk to one another.) I very much enjoy the discussions here.

These are more rhetorical (so if anyone has any answers, by all means … but I do not expect any responses), I am voicing some basic, unfiltered, just letting it all spill out, allow me a moment here to ask:

— Why did God create us in the first place? What are we to Him?
(If He is whole, complete, why did He need / want us?)
— Why would He create us unable to know Him except through His Son?
— What is our purpose of being here, now, on this planet?
(We are like this pool of humanity running around in a sand box.)
— Are we extensions of God? Is He within us, or are we completely separate?
— Do we have a purpose beyond this dimension? In the “end” when Revelations is complete, there’s eternity – and that’s it?

I now understand, better, what the discussion has been about, here, regarding the “Trinity.” I was confused for awhile.

“Trinity” is not a term I use. I did not grow up in any church, I basically grew up in a “godless” home where we went to church, maybe, on holidays such as Christmas Eve and / or Easter. Most of my relationship with God is born out of my own personal experience with the Lord, prayer, and my own studies.

There was a period of time that I had a close relationship with a church and minister (from age 19 – 33, I will be 60 this year.) That relationship ended abruptly and challenged my faith severely.

I have, however, experienced God in different forms. I have felt at times that I am speaking with God in heaven, there is a distance between us, he is the “Father” – “up there” and I am “down here.” There are times I experience that Jesus is in the room with me, right next to me. And there are times that I feel “something” within me, that I have been a vessel of sorts for His work. (Especially when I was a police officer.)

I also strongly believe, as some do here on this blog, that knowing God isn’t something one should have to pay another person for. Any “payment” is between God and myself, not me and some person who considers themselves to be of authority and worthy. That doesn’t mean I have never offered donations in a church service or bought any books.

I so believe in God, I have experienced Him. I “know” Jesus. I have “walked” with Him. There is a knowing that is beyond the mind, beyond thought, beyond imagination. But, here we are, in these physical bodies, with a brain and a mind.

He gave us free will. And, when the questions go away, and there are no answers, I choose to believe. And it isn’t an empty belief / trust, there is “faith” based on past experience.

And, sometimes, none of it makes any sense. 🙂
Except, in the heart. (He gave us that too.)

I hope this answers some of your questions and shares a little bit more about me. I thank all of you who have responded to my previous posts.

The Earth can be either Hell or Heaven. Its how you live life that makes it one or another. You serve the tree of death it will be your hell = death for eternity. If you serve the tree of life it will be your heaven on earth. Life- for eternity.

Praise God Denise – Its good to hear from you. And its always good when believers can come together with the same revelation. Amen. Then that brings unity and power cause instead of just being a loner. We are bound together in cords of Love which are hard to break.

Just from your testimonies. I believe what you say. And yes we do not have to understand all things. As long as you know your Heart is right. God will talk to you. I spent 10 years doing the same thing. Just kind of wondering what the truth was. But I was never afraid to hear somebody else’s ideas and thoughts. How else can we learn. We must at least HEAR the Word to even let the Holy Spirit guide you into whether it is truth or error.

I was a die hard Pentecostal. As they say. But I Praise God He gave me a heart to be a good listener. And we have to have a open mind to receive Revelation from the Holy Spirit. He will separate it in time.

I remember real well when my Christian Boss told me their is no Eternal burning lake of fire. And he gave me some scriptures to read. Then I came back at him with my own Scriptures to prove him wrong. He could not convince me and I could not convince him either. So it was a stale mate. Then about a year later. As I was listening to another man who millions said was a prophet. I seen he had a message on ” the eternal burning lake of fire”. So I sent off and got it. Low and behold it was very very good. And I went to work later on after I listened to it. And I was just thinking about it all. And like a Voice came right into my heart and Said this to me. “””The only form of Eternal life is in Jesus Christ.””” That just set my feet a dancing in my ole welding booth. I went back to that old boss and told him HE was Right. So that is the way it works.

Give Christ your mind, soul, and body and he will direct you paths.
Beacon

I think our “words” sometimes get the best of us, Marianne. I do not believe I misunderstood you, I am just adding my other 2 cents.

Yes, it is true that, many tortured souls, are not tortured because they are living their lives on a wrong path.

And, until we are tested, how can any of us really know what it is we truly believe? I mean, deep down inside, stand alone, no question, believe.

I know, for me, when my minister was murdered, I went through hell (and I can’t begin to imagine what my minister went through) . . . . . people talk about a “baptism of fire” – I don’t know what that might mean for someone else, I know what I went through, though it was hell in the moment, it sealed my relationship with God in a way that became mightier than what it had ever been before.

Marianne, I needed some time to think about this, about suffering. It has been a question that time and time again haunts me. I know you know all of this, but allow me to respond here some more, if only for me to think out loud.

For so long I have wondered about suffering, the “whys”, and the “why nows” – the “what did I do wrong to deserve this?” – the “what am I supposed to learn from this?” and the “why would God want this?” I believe sometimes that suffering is God’s will, sometimes it is because we have made poor decisions, or satan is doing his best to get a stronghold and make us turn away from God, and sometimes it is because of, well, no specific reason at all that has to do with us. We have simply found ourselves in somebody else’s drama. (But, is any of it ever without God’s awareness of fact?)

There is even the seeming randomness of evil. Yesterday this couple went into a Las Vegas shopping center with some suicide pact, killed two officers, at least one other woman, and then themselves. And I drop to my knees, and wonder, “What for?”

Some say God doesn’t put us through trials and suffering to punish us, but rather, to purify us. I know for me, personally, it is when I have felt stretched in my relationship with God, my relationship with God became stronger. My will and His became more solidified. I don’t mean to simplify or belittle the trials of good Christians suffering at the hands of others abroad, being persecuted, and killed.

Peter addresses our suffering, and more specifically, our suffering as believers, ” … though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness…”

Our lives here are very short, compared to a life of eternity and the inheritance that God offers us. (Though, there are times that I have suffered and felt that time itself had slowed down, or even stopped.) Even you have said that everyone must suffer, that we all must go through hell, here, and be tested. And, in that testing we have a choice – will we turn away from God, abandon God, deny He even exists at all (a point I was at) or will we turn toward God and rejoice in His promise – Will we cling to him when there is nothing left to cling to, when something or someone precious is ripped from us.

God does not always show us His reason “why” but He has revealed to us His purpose. If I might share some lines out of the Blue Light Bible site which you had referred me to. (This has been a great tool for me, by the way, thank you for guiding me to this great resource.)

1 Peter 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

1 Peter 2:20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

1 Peter 3:14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness’ sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;

1 Peter 4: 12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: 13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ’s sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

As believers, we don’t just endure trials but (at some point for me, not always in the beginning) we can rejoice in them; that doesn’t mean to diminish or deny the pain and gut wrenching hardship, but we hold on to the promise it paves the way for.

I do (eventually) rejoice in God even when I suffer. Whether He sent me into some abyss, or satan has his hand in it, or some random act of evil … I try to focus on where I am headed.

(I never thought I would find myself thinking and talking like this.) 🙂

This has been a great blog / post of yours, Marianne. To think all of this talk and reflection here started with the Lord’s feet.

Glory be to God for your insights, and thanks for sharing memoirs of you r interactions with God in his diverse forms. Great, simple and accurate that new vocabulary, not to forget the other H2O comparison, again different forms, same element in diverse states. So in heaven, God reigns as the Father, on earth, he consoles and interacts with us as the Son of man, knowing our sorrows and pains, and then also, to enable us achieveii unto righteouness, he sorts us out from within ourselves, speaking to us from the deepest reaches of our person, and this He does in the form of the Holy Spirit, God. That kind of testimony is wonderful of you and thanks for obliging our request.

Its also a wonderful thing you are having questions,rhetorical as they may be. Well, its nice you posted them here as you see, Marriane and other members witness that even Lucifer consistently follows this blog trying to keep it in check and trim it not. But we all know who this blog number One fan is, for where Lu is the numero one hater…….. you follow my drift.

Jesus Chrust, God, Father and Saviour, number One fan of all blogs that have his name in observation. He may not post here directly, but has numerous scribes that he may dictate responses to questions such as yours. So its great you asked, for then only in asking do we recieve.

As with this fella who responded to Job on behalf of God, the one who was young and did not draw God’s wrath, just before God responded, may I will make mention of some answers I may have to what you asked. And may the Lord be vindicated in us all.

God, who is complete, whole and eternal by himself, created, not only man, but the entire universe, with and without inhabitants. He created all for his pleasure, and goodwill ang glory. Look at it this way, God lived without beginning, and shall have no end. Ask not from whence he came for that answer is not for us. So God created all to sustain his own pleasure or joy. We are his pet project, something to keep himself busy and engaged. First he created the inorganic forms and great machines called stars and planets that zoom and swing and all complied in perfect harmony. But they were just that, glorious machines and monuments, self sustaining and biological life forms fully compliant.

But all these were merely automatons, incapale of emotions, and those that had emotions, were incapsle of reason. God elected, after the creation of all these basics, to create more and more challenging forms, and thst is where he, in Wisdom had foreseen all the possible difficulties and eventualities of every form of solphisticated creature he would make, and prepared in them the safeguards.

So in the heavens God filled sentient beings, ever more like Him in form and thought, for He had determined that nothing was as sophisticated as himself, and thus the super challenge was to create life forms in his own dissection, of attributes as well as form.

At the early days, all was fine in all if creation as is recorded in Job, but with growth of populations, within a free will species, some elements disregarded the safeguards they had been instructed against. Simple safeguards as, for instance, your composition of body is 70 percent water, and requires constant rehydration. Then the character instead of water partakes ethanol and that body gets issues. Or more like, you are a machine that requires gasoline to operate. That machine then takes water instead and expects to live on. Or more like, youare a community of beings who need to live one another to live well. Then some elect to abuse their brethren and amass goods to their neighbours loss. For in free will genders forth creativity, which can either be positive or contrary to the desire gosl. Thus had been adviced cautions and recirds of occurences and prior experiences.

Well, the creation in heaven revolted, and strictly speaking, the controversy was upon the first principle of all faith, that God is One Lord and him only shalt thou worship-love without reservations. As all centient creation approached more and more to God in attributes, Lucifer had been the crowning piece of the creayion in heaven. He was God’s look alike and representative-cover, in regions of the universe farthest from God’s throne. Only Lucifer was not to be worshipped for he was only the look alike first general and not God. As in the temptations of Christ many years latter, that principle of worship did feature in heaven.

When the war in heaven had been waged, and the had revolted right in the midst of their Creator and God, and actually against him, having percieved him as a softie God, kind hearyed and humble who woul be pushed to allow anything. God had warned them of what he foresaw of any philosophy they yearned for and disalliwed their creativities which he accounted amiss, such as that of entertaining multiple worship centres and objects and diverse philisophies.

What the whole of creation missed out on is that Wisdom, that is Prudence in God knows all eventualities, for every path has a distinct destination. God in kniwing a free sentient creation would choose all possibilities, had from the beginning set up the location and system by which he would illustrate all the outcome of going contrary to him, the planet earth, otherwise called the foot stool.

But first iniquity had to take root, and it did first in heaven . Owing to constant mitigation by the Giver of life, the true character of evil could not be evident in heaven, for even if one abgel had clearly sliced the head off another, it was just an occassion for a miracle to happen, the head reattachment. These theatrics however greatly slowed the speed of populating heaven and all that was left on going was lifeless forms which cannot glorify God nor truly delight him.

They were cast down to the footstool where they continued with the first civilisations of earth, Atlantis, Lamuria and what gave you. The reason they were cast down to earth was so as to spare the heavens, and on earth their original powers and strengths were greatly reduced so that their power to harm was likewise mitigated. They were a great host, a third of the stars of heaven they were.

They did all the evil creativity they had been kept from performing in heaven, and their civilisations did truly proove to be non sustainable, as God had prudently warned them. Man had not yet been created but that plan from the beginning remained with God.

Creation of Adam and Eve, was the turning point of civilisation of the universe. For God called upon the heavens, to come witness his works, commemorating how He alone had established the heavens many eons before. And that it was not by might nor by power that the creation shall prevailbut by alliwing the character and spirit of God to be welded into them. They had failed before to obey God and to prevail because they had misjudged what is important than the other as we still do today. Adam and Eve were commenced on simple instrctions, just not to touch or consume that which would cause death, their own, or that of the planet and the lives upon it. This system was called the tree of experiecing good and evil. Another was the life support structure of the planet, known as tree of life. In Eden, its evident they had God teaching them, but also, when they wondered off towards the forbidden tree, they got the whispering hissess of the base wisdoms of the contrary to life, and partaking of them, fell.

Lucifers temptation if Eve was meant to shortchange God crowning works, unkown to them all that the fall too was a possibility God had foreseen and set up a recovery for, which was to involve his own selfless sacrifice, to redeem man unto himself, and to shame the devil by prooving all his evil plans are of pain, disaster and self destroying being unsustainable philosophies. It also would proove as we now know that Satan’ s mobilisation of the universe against God’s ways was meant to murder God so as he would replace him. The same lies and propaganda we witness of our politicians, the mudslinging and so forth was Lucifers inception. In essence, democracy as is practiced was Lucifers brain child, even with its electoral terms limitations. Let God retire and lets elect another candidate to thst position kind of bull. But God’ his one word is greater than all the nations combined and therefore cannot, will not give his glory unto another, and there is no God beside Him.

Back with man, created a little lower than the angels, off at the planet of sin, faryhest from God’s heaven, he was extremely disadvantaged, but thst is just what God intends to proove through us. For they rebelled from s perfect heaven, and sinned out of corruption not lack of knowledge. Msn on the orher hsnd is weak and without complete knowledge, yet of humanity will draw nigh to God as far off as He was, and by overcoming all these odds and attaining to salvation, by these the Lord shall judge the universe in compatison. Evil knows this and thereby avows to decieve all humanity thst none should seek God and find him, who is Salvation. Lucifer once again pegs his argument in numbers, the Lord in chatacter, that should just a basic minimum overcome the earth, then the Devils geese are all baked to ashes, and God stands vindicated.

Man, thats you and me are trully in an extremely both precarious and blessed positions. For when we overlook all the odds that best us and stick our sight and faith in Jesus, the more the Devil multiplies stumbling blocks against us, and then the more the grace of God now and in the future is multiplied.

So what man is that God is mindful if him, and the son if man that God hastens unto our salvation is thus: we are the soldiers born in the thick of the great controversy, and by us either party hopes to gain ground. Yet the outcome cannot be allowed to swing either way, for then it is said that He never fails. God shall win to the last, the choice is what stand you individually make.

For already the outcome of the wsr is evident, not in numbers but bt achievements. Now for a third time since the casting of Satans upon the earth, the planetary life support system is been consumed and may fail any moment. The drastic weather abberations are this indication. The forbidden fruit is mans dilicacy. The planet is dying and at that speedily. Because Satans systems are not pro life nir sustainable. He may have the votes but God has the figures, and the latter we say do not lie.

Our vocation upon the earth is to seek God early and in finding him, we already have accomplished our mandate. For the rest is just to walk with him.

The long term vision of God is to fill all His capacity with sentient beings filled with both adopted and acquired wisdom. The pot when in molding , or after speaks evil if its Creator must be a foolish one whose best place is destruction. With man completed in the image of God, that is character thoroughly tested to conform, that who will is then given planets and beings to reign over, akin to how God would would reign over us in wisdom.

But no matter how extensive the universe ever shall become, The Source with whom all adoration is due shall always remain the One. We all are stewards to our Father, and that is our place. Shall the angels refuse to be reigned over? What? Know ye not that we shall judge angels, and they behold with great keeness the development of salvation in action and lean by observing our ways. What of us who firsthand experience the thickest of battle, but that the reward is commensurate to the danger and risk.

Hope this response points your mind to the right directions. You just happennef to ask questions that I did in my teenage, and getting no real answers in literature or elsehow, asked of God and He still is adding upon my understanding in diverse respects. And so I too am obliged to share.

John – Thank you for such an in depth response, I never quite read Genesis in quite that compact of a story. Yet, there is so much in there I will need to read it again. And again. Things I already knew but things I need to hear again.

You also shared:
“Man, thats you and me are trully in an extremely both precarious and blessed positions. For when we overlook all the odds that best us and stick our sight and faith in Jesus, the more the Devil multiplies stumbling blocks against us, and then the more the grace of God now and in the future is multiplied.”

I very much feel, personally, and this planet as a whole, to be in both a very precarious and incredibly blessed position. The more I am tested, the more resilient and stronger my faith – and the stronger my faith, the more, it seems, stumbling blocks are thrown at and in front of me. . . . . . . and on . . . . . and on.

When I lost my minister so abruptly and horribly, I left the church, any structured church, (thought I was leaving God some 25+ years ago) and it amazed me time and time again how stead fast He held on to me, He would not let me go. He would let me rant and rave, and be angry, and cry, and yell. I even went to India to chant with the monks and he followed me there. 🙂

I know He also led me to Marianne’s site here, so that I might find some fellowship, and other believers that I could feel safe with to share my feelings and experiences. We may not all, always agree on all points of scripture or even have different experiences. But what bonds us all here is our love of our Lord and our desire to know Him more deeply and to continue to be of service to Him.

And there are those times, that sometimes I feel so overwhelmed by His greatness, His mercy, and His love, that all I can take in are His feet. When I came back from India I brought back a necklace that at the end of it are a pair of sandals. And I knew, the moment I saw them, that these sandals represented, to me, the sandals of Jesus.

And so in those moments of questioning, or difficulty, that’s what I do. I remember His feet.

We in the Orthodox Church (the Original Church) know the truth. Here is
some info.
Our father in heaven is an angel that looks like an aborginal black. His son Adam the first human was a copy of his father God and he had a White “wife” Eve. And they had white and black children. The son Adam was reborn many times in his white blood and became lighter everytime and when he looked like our father in heaven wanted him to look like then our father in heaven started to conceive his son with holy spirit. The son has blue eyes was light hair as a child and had dark hair as an adult and he looked little lighter if you compared to the rest of the Hebrews.
When we see Yehoshua with light hair in Movies its false information.
The son was black from the beginning.

I know that Nimrod was a black man and he married a beautiful White woman. So we know that their were black and white people in the very beginning of time.
Coins have been found that prove this. Nimrod’s picture was on them along with his beautiful white wife. Later it went to what we see so much today. After Nimrod died all you seen was “A mother holding a god baby in her lap.” That image is all around the world today. And of course its become a Image of Christianity as well. In the Catholic church.

Beacon – just thought this was interesting . I read this out of the book the two babylon’s. Which had some pictures etc.

Thank you for posting your thoughtful questions and sharing your testimony. Paul’s prayer applies today to you (and all Believers).

“…because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints, I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe…” (Ephesians 1:15-21, ESV).

Thank you, DJ, I believe this quote, or part of it, was used in the miniseries, “The Bible” that ran on the History Channel, and now adapted as a motion picture for release into theaters this year, “The Son of God.”

ROME – Megachurch speaker and author Joel Osteen was among a group of political and religious leaders who met with Pope Francis at the Vatican on Thursday.

According to reports, Osteen was part of a delegation organized by the International Foundation in an effort to encourage interfaith relations and ecumenicism. Utah Senator Mike Lee (R), a Mormon, Gayle Beebe, the president of the interdenominational Westmont College in California, and Pastor Tim Timmons, founder of South Coast Community Church also in California, were among those who who greeted the pope, along with Osteen.

“I just felt very honored and very humbled,” Osteen told local television station Click 2 Houston. “It was amazing. And even to go back into that part of the Vatican—there’s so much history there, the place that they took us through. You feel that deep respect and reverence for God.”

The Lakewood leader also met with other Vatican staff during his visit, including Cardinal Pietro Paroli, Secretary of State for the Vatican, and had dinner with an unspecified staff member.

Osteen attended mass in St. Peter’s Square on Wednesday prior to the meeting in the midst of a crowd of 100,000 people.

“Afterward, [the pope] spent an hour and a half going through the crowd with the Popemobile, greeting people,” he recalled to the Houston Chronicle. “It was very heartwarming to see him caring for people.”

Osteen told reporters that he believed the pope’s message and focus is one of unity.

Connect with Christian News
“I love the fact that’s he’s made the Church more inclusive,” he said. “Not trying to make it smaller, but to try to make it larger—to take everybody in. So, that just resonates with me.”

But others have expressed sadness about Osteen’s recent meeting at the Vatican, stating that ecumenicism is far from biblical.

“Joel Osteen has joined the rank of all other popular ministries in bowing his knee to the anti-Christ system, and those that blindly follow his leadership will be the first ones in line with their hand out to be marked by the beast,” Pastor Mark Herridge Sr. of Lighthouse Baptist Church in Livingston, Texas told Christian News Network.

“Any Protestant ministry that links up with the pope and Catholicism is betraying the sacrifice of millions of faithful Christians that have died at the hands of this brutal, dictatorial and oppressive religion that has never represented the Church of the Living God as outlined in New Testament teaching,” he said.

Amy Spreeman of Stand Up for the Truth said that it is important that Christians take note of these developments.

“You might be saying to your evangelical self, ‘Who cares what Joel Osteen does, or what the pope does, or what a Mormon senator does? These things surely don’t apply to my faith, do they?’” she wrote. “[P]erhaps it’s time to stop focusing on those audacious dreams and life tips and start paying attention to your Bible and to those pesky news headlines that threaten to wake us from our slumber. ”

” This last comment below is from Beacon” All above was the news cast.”
Israel and Rome connected – And it brought death to Jesus in Crucifixion.
That’s exactly what happening right in front of all our eyes to see. The same thing happening – Heb. 13:8 never fails.

Why is it that you make me see what is hurtful, and you keep looking upon mere trouble? And why are despoiling and violence in front of me, and why does quarreling occur, and why is strife carried?”—Habakkuk 1:3.
God included Habakkuk’s sincere words in the inspired Bible record. God also helped him to get a clearer understanding of matters and to gain greater faith. The Lord wants to do the same for us all. Remember, the Bible teaches that “he cares for you.” (1 Peter 5:7) God hates wickedness and the suffering it causes far more than any human does. (Isaiah 55:8, 9) Why, then, is there so much suffering in the world?

Why do many people make the mistake of blaming God for the suffering in the world? We have millions of people who are blaming God for all the suffering in the world? In many cases, they blame God because they think that he is the real ruler of this world. They do not know a simple but important truth that the Bible teaches. The real ruler of this world is Satan the Devil. The Bible clearly states: “(1 John 5:19) The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” The world reflects the “invisible” personality and character of Satan.

(Revelation 12:9) Satan is hateful, deceptive, and cruel. So the world, under his influence, is full of hatred, deceit, and cruelty. That is one reason why there is so much suffering.
(Ecclesiastes 4:1; 8:9) Sinful humans tend to struggle for dominance, and this results in wars, oppression, and suffering. After the fall. Adam lived in a Paradise or I could say “Heaven on earth” before he fell with Eve.
(Ecclesiastes 9:11) In a world without Jesus Christ as a protective Ruler, people may suffer because they happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. I just thank the Lord I was born in America.

It is comforting for us to know that God does not cause suffering. He is not responsible for the wars, the crimes, the oppression, or even the natural disasters that cause people to suffer.
1 John 4:8. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is Love.
After the fall God has permitted humans to govern themselves. If so desired.

Mankind has made some advances in science and other fields, but injustice, poverty, crime, and war have grown ever worse. Human rule has now been shown to be a failure. Would God not be making people think that perhaps humans can govern themselves without disastrous results?
If Jehovah were to act in that way, he would become party to a lie. However, “it is impossible for God to lie.”—Hebrews 6:18.

In the end the ruining of our planet will be undone by the turning of the earth into Paradise. The effects of sin will be removed through faith in Jesus Christ ransom and HIS SACRIFICE , and the effects of death, and suffering and pain will be reversed.

1 John 3:8-10 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might “”destroy the works of the devil“”.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
3:10 In this the “”children of God are manifest“”, and the “”children of the devil:”” whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Meanwhile, God has been actively seeking sincere worshipers and helping them to endure any suffering that may come upon them in this troubled world.—
1 Corinthians 10:13. There has no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

i think people blame god for their lack of knowing him. through my life i have seen so many people say; why would god make a child be born that cannot see, or why did that good man or woman die at such an early age. and so on and so on, seeing someone who is happy and being blind from birth is gods way of showing us, just how well off we are. that is a single small example. we know why the very young die. god takes them from the evil that is, and will continue to get worse untill god destroys the little jerk and the ignorant angels that followed him. i hate lucifer! i pray that i could be the one to cast him into the pit, i know one day i will return with the lord riding white horses and the armies in heaven will follow. what a day that will be. evil seems to live the good life and enjoys only at the expense of others, but their days are numbered. lucifer knows his days are numbered and he knows he has no chance to win against almighty god. he simply wants to take as many human souls with him into the lake of fire. that and that alone is what lucifer wants.

Concerning the nature of God whom is not comprehended through human intelligence, it is undeniable that this need to unravel and to define God has been the source of much controversy and debate often resulting in the body of Christ attacking itself and therein weakened. The reason that the bible is so difficult to understand is because its very essence is the intermingling of the eternal realm with the created realm, the letter of the word and the spirit of the word. 1 cor 2:14 In the beginning God created. In the beginning was the Word. What is this event that the bible refers to as the beginning. Could it be that this “beginning” is a benchmark where before this point God existed as a solitary holy majestic perfect being and decreed and purposed at that point to create for his pleasure a creation that he could express his nature to and through and at the appointed time to fuse himself and become one with his creation. All of creation serves to facilitate the fulfillment of that purpose. This fusion of God with his creation is through Jesus Christ as was purposed from the beginning and in that sense Jesus existed from the beginning. When God decrees or purposes to be creation is complete. Nothing can prevent its fulfillment in its appointed time or in the fullness of time. In this sense Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the word completing that which was purposed from the beginning. Someone posted earlier alluding to the absurdity of Jesus being the father and I concur with the human logistics of this not being logical. How logical is it for a father and son relationship to not have the father predate the son? Great is the mystery of Godliness. Col. 2:2 states that Jesus is that mystery. Relying on human intelligence to unravel spiritual principals always confounds and confuses as it attempts to combine the two realms which can only be accomplished in Jesus Christ in whom dwells all the fullness of God.

you forget or did not mention that true followers of god and christ the lord; have the h,oly spirit residing within them. therefore it is possible for mankind that has the holy spirit within them to be able to have the hidden things within gods word revealed to them. as for pre-creation period (for a better term) we know that in the beginning was the word,and the word was with god,and the word was god.the same was in the beginning with god. now when it states; the same was in the beginning with god, is a mystery. so there are some things we will not know untill we get to heaven. but most things in the bible can and are revealed by the spirit of god that dwells within us that believe in him.

Absolutely, we have the Holy Spirit within us that provides the capacity to receive divine revelation and understanding however we also have our old nature still very much present also and very often we put the old man in charge of something that he lacks the capacity for like seeking truth within the word. 1 cor 2:14 tells us that the natural man cannot receive the things of God because they are spiritually discerned. Human intelligence is not the means to understanding God. The innumerable cults which exist and all claim to have roots in the bible is evidence of this reality.

Dmcal52, I did not say Yahveh is not the Ruach Ha Kodesh or Holly Spirit, I said the concept of the trinity is pagan. There aren’t three of them but two; Father and Son. The Father IS Spirit or Ruach (breath or wind). His breathed or showered his Ruach Ha Kodesh or Holly Breath upon the disciples that where at the Temple (beit or ‘house’) on Shavuot (“Pentecost”) as Yeshua told them to do. His Ruach can empower and guide us but its not another person or ‘godhead’, its a part of Him. Just as our parent’s blood runs in our veins His holly breath can run inside us.

Marianne – Perhaps this might be saved for a different post, but there has been much discussion here on this particular post, regarding “God With Feet” – as to the “Trinity” or “Godhead”. I believe our words may get in the way at times, but I suspect that for the most part many basically believe and understand God to be 3 as 1. Not 1+1+1 = 3, but 1X1X1 = 1.

However, I am also hearing there are some here who believe the Godhead to be 2 and not 3. I personally have experienced God as the Father, as Jesus, and as Spirit, as I have shared before on this post, with each no less God.

I would like to hear from those who understand God to not be one in three, (or three that are the One) but one in two, (or the two that are the One) to share their thoughts and scripture.

There is plenty of reference of God being one Lord:
Deuteronomy 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:”

And, there is much reference to God, and Spirit, the Son, and the Father:
Galatians 4:6 “And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Why do some believe there is only two that are One, and where in scripture do they find this? And if you, personally, Marianne, have an opinion, I would like to hear it. Honestly, for me, it does not matter that much, in that, I believe we may be trying to fit God into our limited understanding.

However, I have never before heard anyone believe that God is not three, but two, that is the One. Or, am I mishearing people. And, if this belongs in another post, that is fine too. 🙂 (I never would have thought a post on God’s feet would have generated so much thoughtful discussion. This has been an excellent post.)

i understand the concept of two, but the word of god always speaks of three,father,son,holy spirit, (holy ghost) just a thought here i am not saying this is fact or anything else. it is probably that people think god the father, jesus the son, and then the holy ghost would be considered the soul of the father and the son in combination. as i stated this is what i believe is the concept of those who think that way. but again the word of god always speaks of three. this is an interesting thought, but as far as i myself think and believe it is three.

Here is some more food for thought regarding the subject of one God made up of the the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, three individual persons.

In Isaiah 6:1-3, Isaiah sees the same living creatures (Cherubim)that John recorded in the book of Revelation and also which Ezekiel saw and who gives a great detailed of in Ezkekiel chapters 1, 2 and 10. Both Isaiah and John in Revelation record these living beings proclaiming the following:

“And they were calling to one another: “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD Almighty; the whole earth is full of his glory.” (Isaiah 6:3)

“Day and night they never stop saying: “‘Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty,’ who was, and is, and is to come.” (Rev.4:8)

Notice that the reference to God is “Holy, holy, holy” in both Scriptures. So the question is, is this pattern of three in reference to one God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

Several commentaries have advised that one should not use human intelligence when seeking to comprehend the mysteries of God. If that means the flesh with its desires, then lets state so, but not use the words intelligence. For without intelligence, human or otherwise, there cannot be any basis for reason, and faith for that matter.

‘Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of that which is not seen.’ In rephrasing, Belief is the scientific method of prooving our reason to expect certain desired results, and the accurate knowledge of that which is not seen by observing and deducing their influence and reeactions. It is how we know that there is salt in sea water. We do not see the salt in sea water but deduce that its there by arranging a set of experiments, the easiest of which is tasting. It requires basic intelligence to make any such observations and deductions. Faith reqiires inteligence and reason.

Thus in thr matter of God’s nature, one should obtain faith by using intelligence, human or otherwise, to discern what both nature and the scriptures reveal about God. For He that created intelligence appeals to that intelligence. Let no one therefore tell you that the kniwledge of God requires faith but not intelligence. Its impossible to claim one without the other.

Created in God’s image we were. One query has been that the son addressed the father and vice-versa, and as such they had to be two, and then again we device a fornula in which 3X =X, where X is the Lord God. Now in mathematics, that formula is consindered wrong, and I guess thats when proponents of it request us not to use our basic God given human faculty of intelligence.

Just believe it, they say, and do not seek to understand it. Your mind cannot understand X. Well, honestly speaking, what cannot be understood cannot be believed. For it is only by correct understanding that we obtain faith.

In the image of God! There is a condition among humans that mostly results from the mind being exposed to adverse situations that are difficult to cope with. Its called split mind syndrom, multiple personality disorder, or schizophrenia. You must have heard about it. Now I would query how one personality deals with another, of one with this unfortunate complex? For they are multiple personalities, manifestings, but all being one person. They even can speak to each other but observers will know and see one patient.

Now the sin problem was an extremely ‘shocking’ outcome to God, that He willingly opted to split his personality so as to effectively adress the issue. For the Creator could not also be the same personality that was to live as son of man to illustrate that obedience to God was pissible by relying on God entirely. He that is life cannot die, and He that is the resurrection must of necessity first die. It was a complex set of parameters and equations which God resolved by willingly adopting multiple personality for our sake. Multiple personalities of the same One Lord God.

Thus the personality of the son could adress the personality of the father and viceversa. But when seen, lo, it was just but One Supreme, without equal or comparison, the Lord God.

Where I come from, we even do not need to have multiple personality disorder to talk to ourselves. Its caled sololiquizing by oyhers.

Just for one insane moment, imagine when God was at the Alpha point in time, all alone and tell me if you dont imagine him speaking to himself?

In the image of God created he him,…… then thereafter a rib was extracted from him in creating Eve. Paying close attention to ribs, there are 12 pairs of ribs (24) with anothrr 2 pairs (4) of the hanging ribs. Now this numbeting complies with the God’s palms, which if yhey look anything like our own, have 24 phallanges of the fingers and 4 of the thumbs. Now either John the Revelatory was staring to much at his fingers and ribs, or these numbers and physical features correspond to God’s throne in heaven, surrounded by the 24 elders and 4 living creatures. But what can we learn from observing nature in reference to our God?

Plenty much, but we need of faculty of ‘human intelligence.

Divison and fighting in church was there long before the debate on God’s nature first materialized. Lets not blame divisionon the zeal fir questing truth. And the law of God, and the testimony of Jesus ate not absurd in stating that there is only the One Lord God, and that the father and the son in the case of God were in reality only One person, but diverse personalities.

you can be the smartest human in the world but if you do not have the holy spirit of god within you, you are not going to be able to understand the word of god. that sums the above up. the scriptures state; it is follishness to them (the word of god) why? because they do not have the holy spirit residing in them. it’s that simple.

There is no controversy that the Holy-Spirit is imperative to unveil the truth. My bone of contention is that the human intellect is God given and is the channel by which the said Spirit will appeal. Otherwise Chickens and other base creation would understand God better if intelligence is the foe of truth.

So when maths is argued, do not dismiss it as human intelligence. Besides, you are employing double standards here as you praise the same mathematics and use it to illustrate your chosen angle. And when one objects to that your counting not adding up to the law, you dismiss their ‘human intelligence’

Lastly, who decides how much and who has and does not have the Holy Spirit of God. For I would be as vain as Paul to boast in the flesh as regards God’s gift of the Spirit, that as much as you have, we too have the more if not the same.(God excuse my boasting) but hope the point is clear.

Why has he been called the Spirit of understanding, and judgement, and wisdom, all attributes of intelligence, if He were against intelligence?

All that scriptures teach is that denying God is nit out of intelligence but foolishness. Not knowing God as He ought to be known is ignorance.

who has and does not have the spirit of god , you needed to add; “residing within them” ; if you have never accepted jesus as your lord and saviour ; it is impossible to have the holy spirit residing within you. that’s common sense and basic beginning knowledge of christianity.

Denise the scripture you cited does not say anything about a third person unless you read it that way every time the words “Holly Spirit” pop up. Yah Is Spirit and He is Holly, he is the Holly Spirit. Look at how many thrones are in Revelation, two, Father and Son. They are echad, A unit of two, if you see the Son you see the Father. Nonetheless the Father remains Ruach or Spirit.

When we read and study the word of God we understand little about what we read just like the disciples understood almost nothing of Jesus’s teachings. A friend recently shared with me that he was confounded by his attempts to read the bible because it made no sense to him although he can converse intelligently about quantum physics and string theory. As we fill ourselves with information that is confusing and often appears contradictory it is important to, as the scripture admonishes, to lean not to our own understanding as we will be deluded. In the absence of a genuine love for and seeking of truth we often settle for the great impostor, knowledge, which when embraced can block truth as we become fiercely defensive about what we know. If we resist this tendency and our experience of salvation is genuine, the Holy Spirit will lead and guide into all truth.

you said:
“When we read and study the word of God we understand little about what we read just like the disciples understood almost nothing of Jesus’s teachings.”

I’m guessing that you are speaking on your own behalf, because God has blessed me with great understanding of his word and continues to reward me as I continue to diligently search the Scriptures as he does with everyone else who earnestly searchs his word and who has his Spirit. His word is here for us to dig into and to find out the deepths of his word. If what you were saying was true, how could believers perform the folllowing:

“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of Goda may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

If we can’t understand what we’re reading, then how could we teach, rebuke, correct, train or contend for the truth of God’s word? I say that we can know what is written and that is why God gave us his word, so that we could know it and so that we could meditate on him and his word night and day! True, we can’t know the things that are beyond his word, but we can know, count on, and proclaim the word he gave us.

Well, Marianne, (and everyone still here), after you sent me those sites for reference regarding my question (you gave me 7 references), I thought I would have something to say.

It is 9 hours later and I have finally made it through the 1st reference site on the “Trinity Being Equal” (or not.) And explored items referred to in that post by others responses as well (great video in there, btw) and kept up with the posts here.

It is now a little after 11:30pm PST and my head hurts. lololol So, I am headed off to bed and will sleep on the matter. I still feel I have something more to say but right now my words and thoughts are like jello. What an immense topic to take in.

I will now retire and have some quiet time with the Lord.

Thanks to everyone for all of your thoughtful responses and scriptural references.

Please see Exodus 33:19, “…I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.”

Then, please consider the book of Job, reading the account when God allowed Satan to wipe out Job’s wealth, affect Job’s health and bring physical death to Job’s children. All of this for a purpose, which included Job’s spiritual well being (a personal reflection on the monarch over the spirit of pride, Leviathan).

BTW – Job’s children were taken to Abraham’s bosom. Then, Job was blessed with more children.

Overall, apply that prayer within Colossians chapter 1 and Ephesians 1:17-21 as you pursue answers to your questions – He will give you understanding in all things (2 Timothy 2:7).

The “holy water” within Numbers 5:17 is water used for purification of utensils, like the 6 water pots (cisterns) we read about with the Lord’s first miracle (John 2:1-10).

Notice what takes place when adding dust off the floor of the tabernacle into the earthen vessel (cisterns) with the “holy water” (pure water). This “holy water” (pure) became “bitter water” (Numbers 5:18).

Overall, the process within Numbers chapter 5 is to identify a spirit of jealousy (verse 14), which is demonic.

So, what do you think adding human blood would or could do to pure or “holy water”?

In the account within John 2:1-10, pure water is turned into wine.

An essential component of this miracle is the quality of those 6 cisterns (water pots) is this: are these pots capable of holding the pure water, filling them to the top (John 2:7)?

These 6 cisterns (#6 representing man, vessels), were capable of being “filled to the brim” with pure water.

To understand how important the capacity of these 6 cisterns is to the Lord’s miracle – please look at this passage:

” ‘Be astonished, O heavens, at this, and be horribly afraid; Be very desolate,” says the Lord. ‘For My people have committed two evils:
They have forsaken Me, the fountain of living waters, and hewn themselves cisterns—broken cisterns that can hold no water’ ” (Jeremiah 2:12-14).

The Jeremiah passage tells us that the John 2:1-10 cisterns must be capable of holding the living water.

So, back to the points I’m trying to make:

There is nothing in Scriptures to support the application of “holy water” to anyone at any time within Scriptures, outside of baptism. Even the water for baptism was not and is not considered “holy”.

There is nothing in Scripture regarding any human blood with something in order to make water “holy”.

By adding human blood to water with a piece of paper (from a Bible), then applying that substance upon another person or an artifact is not supported by Scriptures.

The blood of Jesus is all sufficient when He said, “It is finished.”

No other blood (human or animal) is necessary or required for healing, cleansing, sanctification or purification.

Oil is the only substance I can find within the New Testament to apply upon someone for healing (James 5:14-20).

I could provide testimony from others who are far more familiar with spiritual warfare (supernatural, spiritual realm) that supports my concerns. But, why waist more time and space by extending a reply beyond Scriptures.

2 Timothy 3:16 tells us, “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness…”

dj ; you still don’t get the point. ; the blood represented the lord. i have the holy spirit within me. it is not my blood healing or protection anyone. the small sliver of the bible is ment to represent the lord god. the water is to represent te holy spirit. it has nothing to do with me. this was done in great prayer to god, alone, no one ever knew, except god. the holy water refured to in the old testiment, was still considered holy to god. how do you know if it was not possibly used for other purposes then purifying eating utensils? gods word itself states; not every thing is placed in the word of god because there would not be enough space in the world to contain it. ( thats a summary of the quote but is factual), you seem to be thinking that i am placing myself as equal to jesus, you could not be more wrong. never the less, when we do something that we believe helps someone, and do not ever say it was i who healed you or whatever. but it is done to represent the lord god and the holy spirit and the blood of christ. don’t you think god knows what such a person is doing ! of course he does.

John777 when Yeshua was immersed or mikvah in the Jordan prior to staring His ministry as Son of Man, the Ruach or breath of Yah was manifested as a dove and then Yah spoke loudly declaring Yeshua as His son. Same divine Ruach Ha Kodesh or Holly Spirit did both functions. This corresponds perfectly with the anointing of the new king that the Israelites prophets would do. First they poured oil over their heads then they made a loud proclamation over them, same prophet did both.

Yeshua told His disciples to wait at the Beit or House of Prayer, the Temple, and on that Shavuot (“Pentecost”) the Father breathed His Holly Fire or Ruach on them. It even says the congregants heard the wind…

Sorry John 777, my last reply was for dmcal52 as is this one. The word translated :Lord” is often YHVH, all the scriptures you point at are doing is stating praises to YAHVEH. Just cause its done three times does not imply a trinity of any sort but rather a manner of speaking, Hebrew style. Look,a little review in history will leave no doubt as to the origins of the trinity concept. If was started in Babylon (confusion) and imported by force into the church by Rome.

Says you! How do you know that the purpose of the Cherubim saying “Holy, holy, holy” is not in reference to the three distinct persons of the Godhead. The only reason that you say that it is not, is primarily to support your position. This is always typical of people who are more concerned about supporting their own interpretation instead of wanting to know the real truth. You have no proof that this pattern of three is not pertaining to Father, Son and Holy Spirit, except that of your own conclusions. That fact is, that it is indeed in sets of three. By the way, the Cherubim are not Hebrew, so that issue about being in the style of Hebrew doesn’t hold water. Everything that the OT writers wrote, as well as in the NT, was written as men were moved by the Holy Spirit and therefore Scripture did not originate from the writers own will or imagination, but from God.

dmcal52
Greetings What I should have included in my previous post was that studying in God’s word should always be preceded by prayer and followed by prayerful meditation and resist drawing conclusions until the Holy Spirit puts the pieces in order and provides the understanding which then must be confirmed by the written word. When we attempt to short cut this process by what we may perceive as our superior intellect we end up becoming religious rather than spiritual. Because of our dual natures no one gets this right all the time.Human intellect is our default system of extrapolating and making sense out of abstract concepts and is a constant challenge to resist using this part of our humanity to define and understand something as massive as God who is of a substance that the intellect cannot comprehend. The letter killeth, the Spirit giveth life. I didn’t mean to imply that human intellect should not be part of the process just that it is not a reliable means with which to relate to God and spiritual matters. The Holy Spirit is what makes possible the coexistence of the old and the new natures but to often we let the old nature which is more closely affiliated with the intellect to influence in ways that it simply cannot. The doctrine of the trinity as it is traditionally believed and taught was probably the result of human need to reduce God down to something that could be intellectualized.

I have had an epiphany, that all along we have all couted amiss. You see I heard that God was One Lord and so I really had not bothered to enumerate all the things and persons the scriptures account of Him.

I would begin on Jesus Christ.

1. Lamb of God
2. Bread that comes down from heaven
3. Living water
4. Lion of the tribe of Judah
5. True vine
6. True shephered
7. Son of man
8. Son of God
9. Rabbi (good one at that)
10. The way
11. Truth
12 . Word
13. Everlasting Father
14. Redeemer

Now I could keep on enumerating Jesus, and as you can observe with me, the count keeps growing.

You see, I never heard of a lamb that was a shepherd at the same time, and then a lion. Then a lion that is a vine, and a vine thats a loaf of bread? Impossible. There must be these many Jesus’ and I must meet them all separately. I will go to that way that one Jesus, and after him then I must see that spring of living water.

But I get confused which Jesus died on the cross, if it was son of man, or son if God. Then that another is father everlasting: either these are another three, for the we say a father aint the son, whether only begotten or not. Rock of ages also is Jesus, another as we account, and I tell you verily I have some experience with baking and no way a rock can be a loaf of bread. The miracle worker of Galilea even disdained to make that happen, you know when He was an hungered, but stones he would not eat.

In fact, at a latter time He opted to eat his own flesh and drink his own blood and made his friends to partake of him, and they rejoiced in stead of running away.

I also indulged in a little farming, although not of vines, but if all plants are the same, I think vines are eaten by lambs, and lambs by lions or sons of men. The lions get killed by the shephered to keep them from the lambs.

You see, another one of these Jesus’ is the key of David, may be of his main palace door. David, David, why do you call your key thy Lord?

So as you have witnessed with me, if the Father and Son must be two persons in regard to the paradox of God, then too a rock, a lamb, a shephered, a lion, a vine and so on must be different persons too.

So my friends who count up to three, why stop there, when the principle behind this count necessitates the count to continue?

I observed another anomally, in regard to the holy spirit and the Person of Jesus Christ,; that holy spirit that overshadowed Mary to incarnate Christ, and that which years latter came down in the form of a dove, certainly two holy spirits here. One when Jesus was younger, the other latter own. Probably the third at pentecost, and these ones were many as they filled each person separately, I wonder what the count might be.

Well, since I truly get confused in that manner of reason, I’d rather HEAR that the Lord our God is One Lord, and the mystery behind His many oppossing declarations is that they are not many who agree in one, but one whose attributes are compared to the diverse claims that He is, so thinks I.

Just trying to explain by Scriptures that what you have in your vial (subconsciously thinking, vile) is actually not based upon Scriptures.

I think we are to test these matters (“holy water, and other symbolic measures/practices) by applying Scriptures.

But, you seem to have already and steadfastly made your decision. Okay, God bless you.

But, the more you share – the more questions and doubts arise in my mind, based on Scriptures.

Clearly, there is no passage within Scriptures where “holy water” (water alone) applied to any person or over any artifact for the purpose of healing, cleansing, protection, etc.

If the application of “stand alone holy water” is a contribution to cleansing, healing or purification it is not listed within Leviticus, Numbers or Deuteronomy – so it is more than likely not incorporated into any Hebrew practices ordained by Almighty God for application by priests and/or prophets.

The only time the word “holy water” is applied in Scripture is found in Numbers. Then, this “hole water” (pure) is mixed with dirt off the floor of the Temple, creating “bitter water” for a purpose of exposing a spirit of jealousy.

So far as we know (written in Scriptures) there is no application of “holy water” (just water) within Scriptures for “religious” purposes. Zippo. Zip.

You, the Pope apply “holy water” and maybe there are some others.

The Temple priests applied the blood of specific animals for specific reasons.

In the New Testament – we find water baptism, oil and the literal and spiritual “blood of the Lamb” applied in one form or other for specific reasons.

So, while the blood of Jesus is alive and active, being all sufficient – your blood “represents” His? This is okay for you.

Your blood is a representation of His because His blood is not physically available.

Do you know pagans uses their own blood or the blood of other humans for “religious reasons”? But, you are okay using your blood as a representation of His blood. It is up to you and your okay with it.

God told the Isrealites to post the words upon their doorposts of their houses and on their gates (Deut. 6:9). That seems like a good think to do.

I know a man who has confronted witches and worshipers of Satan over the years while ministering deliverance and spiritual warfare. He lives about 10 miles for me. He has over 20 years of experience in spiritual warfare. The wicked workers of iniquity would often walk and drive by his home. They even stepped on his front yard once, forming a circle. Nasty.

So, he was advised by a Pastor to apply Deut. 6:9, posting specific Scripture verses above the door posts of his home – as one part of an overall “spiritual covering” of his home and family.

You wrote above that the vial is “done to represent the lord god and the holy spirit and the blood of christ.”

After reading your replies, you are free to keep and apply your “holy water” as you will.

I was attempting to share with you that there is no Scriptural foundation for such a blend of ingredients (as a representation) to affect or impart “healing” or “cleasing” or “sanctification” or “protection” over someone or an artifact.

There is no such formula ordained by God the Father or His Son in practice or implied by interpretation of Scriptures. There is nothing like this in Acts or any of the NT letters.

I just want to let you know that what you have in the vial – it may be problematic, in the realm of spiritualism.

But, you don’t have to agree with me. I just wanted to share another perspective.

thank you for your perspective. problematic to some, fact to others. it is fact to me. i have seen it work, why did it work? because god honors the way i use it. and the prayers unto him,prior,during and after. / again as i stated in the last post about this; the word of god states that if all the works that were done, their would not be enough space in the earth to contain them. that is a rather important scripture. i do not need to imply what it means, but it is food for thought for all christians.

I never thought about it much, John, (holy water), as I haven’t been in a church lately that uses it, or in contact with anyone who uses holy water.

Maybe this should be left for another post. What makes something holy. Does an alter make an offering holy, or does the offering make the alter holy? Is it both?

There is another Book / Verse in the Bible which seems to address the issue of healing, cleansing, with clean water – and, perhaps, this refers strictly to baptism.

Ezekiel 36:23-25
“23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. 24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.”

However, I also found noteworthy, that it is not the physical things we handle, but ” … righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost” that matters most. Those who have these attributes serve Christ and is acceptable to God (and approved.)

Romans 14:16-25
“16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of: 17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. 18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. 19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another. 20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence. 21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. 22 Hast thou faith? Have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. 23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.”

Here, to me, what is being said is not just how meat might be offensive to some, or to God, it is any act. And, that there are some who abstain from meat (an act) because it is offensive to them. But it is not the meat that offends God. “All things indeed are pure;” it is how one eats, or acts, that is the offense. If one doubts, and then performs an act not of faith, it is not the act but is the lack of faith that is the offense to God, and a sin.

Again, I am no authority on scripture here. It is my opinion, and I know it to be only that, my opinion, my interpretation of scripture.

You seem to miss the purpose of applying Scriptures to the issue of incorporating human blood, a piece of paper (Bible) within water, crafting e composite identified as “holy water” – by suggesting this is an act of worship (“piety”).

But, I think your reply is with a purpose.

I’ll continue this off line.

2 Timothy 3:16 tells us, “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness…”

marianne; it is useless to try to get through to some people. when someone simply asked me to describe how and under what conditions i did this, somehow a few people took it as though i was using my own blood to heal people then they took it as an offence to jesus christ. if these people would nave read the explination, and exactly what was said prior to doing this, during doing this, and after doing this, they would have seen it had nothing in reality to do with me. it had to do with ; the father, the son, and the holy spirit. maybe they would have said the sane if i had used oil. when you pray to god in such a manner for forgiveness of any sins against him or any other, it is done because god will not hear you. i will one last time mention the same thing i have already mentioned twice about this; if all the works were recorded in the bible their would not be enough room in the world to contain them. some people just do not understand that scripture at all.

that is correct; i respect my faith in god, christ and the holy ghost. all of us are called or chosen to do certain things in our life, for the glory of god. i still think god sometimes throughs up his hands in the air just like a parent does when their children just don’t get it. god bless amd thanks for the prayers for my back and left leg. the pain is still there but not at levels of 7-8 all the time. i should also thank everyone else that has prayed. ps; i sure hope someone does not post;(why don’t you use your holy water on yourself). i’m ready to bet $ 1 million that someone will ! but then i only have $120.00 left untill ssi check comes, god with feet, sure brought up a lot.

i agree with what you are saying; it is what we do in life that will determine where we spend eternity. and we should not tear down each other because one person believes one thing and another ,another thing. as christians are purpose is to attempt to bring light to the lost. i think the issue of holy water has run its course in this section. it is strange how a simple few words about someone asking another the way and reason they would make holy water,would turn into something the lord as i have stated a couple of times before; god must sometimes through his hands up in the air and say what’s the problem with you that serve me, you get into squabbles over things that have nothing to do with your salvation or the purpose i have sent you to do. // it is ok to talk about gods word and scriptural interpitation, thats what we are all doing on this sight. but we sometimes miss the point. we are to help each other.

dmcal52, Holly, holly, holly are repeated in Scripture in two places, Isa 6:3 and Rev 4:8. These words like the words in Rev 8:13, “Woe, woe, woe” are repeated to emphasize something. Today we use bold letters, underline and use exclamation marks to give extra emphasis to something, not so back then. Back then the Hebrew language, like many others, did not have use of grammatical points. The repetition makes it stand out as important; repeating a word in Hebrew is giving that word and important value. There are other instances of word repetition like when Yeshua said “Verily, verily I say unto you…” in John 3:3. Even today sometimes we use phraseology like “I really, really mean it” to give emphasis to a point we are trying to convey. In the case of “holly, holly, holly” the point is made of Yah’s absolute holiness. He (Father and Son, echad) and only He is absolutely holly and no one else.
The trinitarian concept can be clearly traced to Babylon, or confusion, and was injected by the Romans into the political/religious organization that they created to try to replace Israel. From Rome/Babylon have the nations been fed many lies. Truly the day will come when the Gentiles will deplore that they have inherited lies from their ancestors as it is written in Jer 16:19.

I don’t understand what you mean by “the Cherubim are not Hebrew, so that issue about being in the style of Hebrew doesn’t hold water “as the entire bible was written by Hebrews who as the chosen people were given the promises and the covenants, Rom 9:4-5. Of course as Hebrew men they were inspired of Yah; otherwise all this discussion would be pointless.

John both Yeshua/Y’hoshua and Yah have many descriptive titles. Let us remember that it has been Yeshua all along that as the Groom has for the most part dealt with Israel, the bride. The Ruach Ha Kodesh (which is the Father) overshadowed Mariam (Mary) to incarnate her with Yeshua so He could be born as second Adan, the Son of Man. It was as such that Yeshua had to die to pay the penalty incurred by man/Adan.

Al, I wholeheartedly agree with you. Your statement: “Paul walked in the commandments and kept the feasts. Both are true. I am not the one denying that. The Christian Church knows what Messiah said and how he walked and yet they don’t do it and teach others not to do it. Why? You “should” know how Paul walked for it is recorded in scripture, yet it is the understanding of the Christian Church that he taught the opposite (contrary to what Messiah said and did)” is correct. The Christian church has deviated tremendously from the “The Way” walked by Yeshua and His disciples to the point that when Yeshua returns looking for His bride He won’t be able to recognize many who call and do exploits in “His name”. Truly the 5 foolish virgins will be found short of oil or the teachings of Yah found in the Tanach, which was the only portion of Scripture available to them 2000 years ago and the only books they used to teach about Messiah, mainly to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, the wild olive branches. Just as it is written in Jer 16:19, many will realize they have inherited lies. These lies came mainly via Rome, who as the mystery religion still peddles confusion or Babylon to the nations through her many daughters, the thousands of divergent Christian denominations al claiming to be “it”.
There has to be a major paradigm shift and returning to the basics long lost as the result of direct Roman interference. A good start would be to observe Yah’s holly Sabbath that He set aside right after He made Adam and later made into the 4th commandment but Rome changed along with His feasts or sacred rehearsal times, the last of which the nations that survive will have to observe during the millennium if they want rain as it is written in Zac 14. Shalom

It is good to find another who is likeminded in Messiah and willing to state it openly. I have come to understand that this is the time of reconciliation of the House of Ysrael and the House of Yahudah, at least to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear. I do believe as time goes on, more will come to the truth. May Yah bless your efforts in His name.

Nowhere within Scripture does Paul or any other of the Apostle’s say, “Okay, now that you have Yeshua, go be like the JEWS and do the SAME as they do.”

Instead, Paul warns the recipients of his epistle’s to, “BEWARE of THEM”!

Why?

Because the Jew’s would attempt to have those that follow Yeshua, to also follow the Mosaic Law.
The Law of the FLESH, rather than the Law of the SPIRIT.

(Paul refers to these JEWS as being FALSE brethren within, Galatians 2:4., and 2 Corinthians 11:26.)

Philippians 3:2,3.

“Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
For WE ARE the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have NO confidence in the flesh.”

After expressing the previous confidence that he had within “himself” in being a “Pharisee and a Hebrew of Hebrews” he compares all of that, literally, as being worth “sh*t”. (Philippians 3:4-8.)

Why?

Well because he would much rather be “IN” Yeshua, and “partake of His Holy Righteousness” than any righteousness that he could possibly obtain of his own through the Law. Instead, Paul chose the “righteousness” that is obtained “solely by FAITH”.
“The righteousness which is of God by faith!”

Philippians 3:9.;
“And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:”

This (what is meant to be understood), is expressed throughout the New Covenant text.

However, both of you have the right to believe as you wish to believe.
Yet in my personal opinion, I believe that your efforts to follow the Mosaic Law still, are simply…… “Fruitless”.

Be Blessed “IN” Yeshua.
He is ALL that is Necessary.
Yeshua is our Everything.

In all that you think you understand and are saying, you are nothing less than coming up short. If you are going to come anywhere near the truth, you have to read this from the understanding and view point that Paul was a Torah observant Jew when he wrote his letters, and the fact that he remained that way. To put it bluntly, as has been said before, if you are going to approach teachings of Hebrew scholars and teachers, you need to at least have some sort of rudimentary understanding of where their understanding comes from. To approach all of this with your linear, “progressive”, Greek understanding, will get you nothing but goose eggs when it comes to understanding what is really being said. Couple that with Gentile translators who have an anti-Torah bias and the pagan rulers who ordered the scriptures translated with an anti-Jewish mindset, what do you expect to come out of this?

Try and look at the verses you wrote from the view of a Torah observant Jew and see if it looks at least somewhat different. If you are unable to do that, let me know and I will go through it with you.

It was for a reason that it was said, that Paul’s writings were hard to understand; and they were Hebrews. What chance do the Gentiles have of understanding what was being said and getting it right, this far removed from when the letters were written. My personal opinion is, that at this point, it will take nothing less than revelation through Ruach HaKodesh for the Christian Church to fully understand the things that Paul wrote about.

It takes a Revelation always. Faith is a Revelation. No intellectual mind can understand God and His word without a revealing of Revelation. The Lord sent “Love letters to His Bride”. Only the Wife can understand them cause she is married to him. And they are bone of His bone and flesh of His flesh. The same Spirit that was in Christ has to live in all His Bride virgins- Word virgins. God Bless

If you trust in anything but the shed blood of Christ for your salvation, you are attempting to earn it by your own efforts. This is what Paul spoke of when he said that the Jews tried to earn salvation as if it were by works:

“What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.”

Which is exactly what everyone is doing here who is teaching that we are still under the old covenant of the law of Moses. You are doing the same thing here that the Pharisees were doing when they were going about, without the authority of the Church, claiming that the Gentile believers must be circumcised and made to obey the Law of Moses. And here Peter’s and the Holy Spirits response to that:

“Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

“The apostles and elders met to consider this question. After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

You have become those Pharisees! If you continue to trust in your own efforts by meeting the righteous requirements of the law of Moses (which Jesus fulfilled completely and nailed to the cross) then you it will keep you from obtaining eternal life and that because you are not trusting in God who justifies the wicked. Our faith should be in the completed work of Christ on the cross and nothing else!

Now for you who are thinking that this means we have cart blanche to sin, we do not. Not being under the law does not mean that we have freedom to sin. It means that we are under a completely different covenant, one that is by faith only.

We are under the covenant that God made with Abraham 430 years before the law came into existence and are his spiritual offspring by faith.

“Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come.

Now that the seed (Jesus Christ) has come, we are no longer under the law of Moses.

If you trust in anything else for your salvation other than the shed blood of Christ, trusting that God is the one who has provided salvation, you will not inherit the kingdom of God.

““We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.”

“I have met so many people who think it is ok to live in adultery and show up at church”

I wrote the following in the previous post to be proactive, but obviously it didn’t work and that because you brought it up anyway. So, here it is again:

“Now for you who are thinking that not being under the law means we have cart blanche to sin, we do not. Not being under the law does not mean that we have freedom to sin. It means that we are under a completely different covenant. We keep the moral laws because we follow Christ and are led by the Spirit and when we fail at any of these, we confess our sins and he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanses us from all unrighteousness. He does this through faith and not by the observance of the law.

If we are willfully living according to the sinful nature, it leads to death and we are accumulating a multitude of sins as long as we remain in that state.

Dear people.
As concerning the law – The disciples still had a generation to lead people to Jesus Christ. And yes as their custom was they went into their synagogues but the main Temple in Jerusalem was their meeting place 3 times a year. They had to attend these meetings. That was the Headquarters we might say of the whole of Judaism. And when it fail all things fail with it.

Now we have a problem. IN 70 AD the Temple was completely destroyed. Paul was martyred right before the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple. Many of the disciples were gone. And some in other lands Teaching and Preaching the “Kingdom of God” is here. That is the real Gospel still today.

The Seal of the Holy Spirit is our house that God built for us that we must have. And we cannot be touched by death. Cause we have Eternal life. (note) most trinitarians and twinitarians would probably divide the Holy Spirit from Eternal life. If you split up the Godhead – mise well split it all up. That natural mind veils over the Spiritual mind. Then you sinking slowly.

The Great Temple was removed in 70AD because the days of the law were over period. Their whole organized system of religion was destroyed. God left 37 years of Grace to that generation before He let “satan” kill, still, and destroy it completely down. Nero started the war but Titus and his father finished it. Israel was no more. And was scattered all over the world as the “Abomination of Desolation” took place. The Jews lost their Stone “Temple” and did not understand their Messiah was Jesus Christ replaced it with Himself. = The Holy Spirit. We all know it was 1948 when they finally got back their home land. After great, great tribulations. And Please I believe this generation is going to have that same Abomination of Desolation that Israel had. Heb. 13:8 declares it. Christianity today has went full circle as Israel did before its destruction. They listened to the “voice” of satan and not the Prophets Voice of God. Jesus declared that Himself.

IN Rev. 11 Their was a Brand new Temple made without hands and stone. Where in The Sealed of God cannot be touched. And over a Million people died in the mount where the Temple was. Jesus did not act like the Temple of that day was anything special cause it was polluted with evil. Now Jesus is filling his People with the Holy Spirit and they are the “lively stones” of the Spiritual New Temple of God. That has been building for 2,000 years. So stone building’s do not mean anything to God now. Its Spiritual Stones that God is seeking to serve Him now. The shadow is gone and we are living in the Real “Stone of Revelation”. That Peter said. And hell shall not prevent it.

NOW Today – do you actually still think that God is going to build the Jews our Gentiles a New stone Temple for His Spirit to dwell in once again. Its Spiritual my dear friends.

By faith right now you are walking on streets of Gold. Gold signifies tried and tested and bent and hammered to perfection. Honed out for God’s purpose.
Rev. 1 pictures Jesus in Gold and also the Golden Lampstands. IS THE CHURCH – I read about it. It was beating and hammered with ONE piece of Gold plate.
That was also Jesus Christ life and eventually took Him to the Cross.
Point – I do not know how people think they are Sanctified by just works. As The Lord my God said His church will have the commandments written upon the tablets of their hearts. If the Heart is of GOD it will do the right thing always. Yea you can make a mistake but it will be forgiving you when you look at the Cross of the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ. When asked in humble adoration.

Jesus is my Temple, and my Fortress, and my Safe city of refuge, etc. etc.

Gregg, The confusion is between doing ‘what the Jews do’ and actually obeying Yah’s holly Torah that Y’hoshua and His disciples followed. The Apostle’s Writings give plenty of testimony to their adherence to Torah. What they did not do is follow man’s tradition, in this case the “fence laws’ that in their seal for Israel not to break Torah the rabbis intercalated. These are the ‘heavy burdens’ that Yeshua referred to. It wasn’t just a matter of obeying Torah the way Yeshua and His disciples did, which is what the apostle’s expectations were for pagans after they took the four steps that demonstrated they left their paganism aside (and not just incorporated “ieosus” to their pantheon of deities as they were prone to do). After these four steps were taken the new converts, to the branch of Judaism known then as followers of The Way or Nazarenes, were expected to attend synagogue every Sabbath to hear Moses ( to learn the “law”, Torah). Please take note that in Mat 5:17-19 Y’hoshua says that He did not come to destroy the Torah that He personally handed Moses at the Mount for Israel to follow. On the contrary, He states that He came to ‘pleiroo’ Torah that is; He came to expand or give Torah its true intent or meaning. Yeshua being Himself a Rabbi leaned more towards the house of Rabbi Hillel which believed that it was the spirit, not the letter of Torah that carried the heavier weight. Many of Yeshua’s sayings were in effect reflective of this view of Torah.

Please don’t take this personally, but I won’t play this back and forth discussion anymore regarding this particular topic, simply because it goes nowhere and it has all been said before. (I shouldn’t have said or posted anything.)

However out of respect for you, and your response, I will comment on some of the things that you have to say above

Where you say, “After these four steps were taken the new converts, to the branch of Judaism known then as followers of The Way or Nazarenes, were expected to attend synagogue every Sabbath to hear Moses ( to learn the “law”, Torah).”

My response to that would be, “Can you please provide me with Scripture that would substantiate that statement?”

Though it has been my experience that most of you that hold to following of Torah utilize, “Acts 15:21.”, to express that sentiment above, my response to you would consist of the same posed to them; Which is…“How would an uncircumcised Gentile be allowed to attend synagogue services?”

Where you say above, “On the contrary, He states that He came to ‘pleiroo’ Torah that is; He came to expand or give Torah its true intent or meaning.”

I happen to have a different interpretation of “Matthew 5:17-19.”, than you do. and my response would be, actually, Yeshua states, “but to fulfill.”

But thank-you for the lesson regarding your knowledge of Greek.
However he English “to fulfill” was derived from the Greek “πληρῶσαι ” and is transliterated as “plēroō”, (not pleiroo), as its definition happens to be significantly different than that of yours. (I’ll believe the Strong’s, or Vine’s Expository Dictionary over yours thanks.)

All of which, (by definition) do more than suggest, that Yeshua “fulfilled the Mosaic Law on man’s behalf”.

Where you say, “Yeshua being Himself a Rabbi leaned more towards the house of Rabbi Hillel which believed that it was the spirit, not the letter of Torah that carried the heavier weight. Many of Yeshua’s sayings were in effect reflective of this view of Torah.”

My response to that is ….. “How do you respond to that? lol.”

Above by what you say here, “the Torah that He personally handed Moses at the Mount for Israel to follow” where you are referring to, “Yeshua personally handing Moses the Torah” then you say, “Yeshua being Himself a Rabbi leaned more towards the house of Rabbi Hillel”, (a man?) and then you follow that up with the rest of your statement?

Yeshua is the Word, the beginning of Creation, (John 1:1-5., Colossians 1:16,17., Hebrews 1:2., and 2:10., Ephesians 3:9., and Revelation 3:14.), and He doesn’t need to “lean” upon anything, especially that of His own Creation. His knowledge is incomprehensible.
(As is your double post, just not in a good way.)

Al in case you read this too, I’ll respond here as well.
You and I are, and will always be, polar opposites regarding as to who understands Paul or not.

Notice – the above verse from Proverbs. Paul, John and Peter probably had this verse on their minds/hearts when writing their letters, regarding Grace.

The issue is sin, which occurred before the Law was given to Moses.

The atonement (“it is finished”), was graciously provided by the Son of God to those who believe.

“‘Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!'” (John 1:29).

“…If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us” (1 John 1:9-10).

Those who love, appreciate and treasure Him continuously seek Him as we read in Psalm 119.

“Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the Lord!
Blessed are those who keep His testimonies, who seek Him with the whole heart!” (Psalm 119:1-2).

As brothers and sisters in Christ we should edify one another as we read in this passage:

“Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant, equip you with everything good that you may do His [God’s] will, working in us that which is pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen” (Hebrews 13:19-12, ESV).

Believers and followers of Christ are encouraged to be wise not foolish.

“Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is…be filled with the Spirit” (Ephesians 5:18).

So, why be filled with the Spirit?

“For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God…Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God” (1st Corinthians 2:10-12, ESV) .

Gregg, obedience to Torah is not about gaining salvation because salvation has ALWAYS been by grace or faith as exemplified many times in the Tanach, including Israel’s salvation from Egypt’s tyranny during the first Passover and subsequent release from Egyptian bondage. They still had not been given Torah, at least not the written form received from YHVH, Yeshua, who identified Himself to Moses as Behold the hand; behold the nail in their Paleo Hebrew. Even so Israel entered into covenant with Yah and was supposed to take some steps that they did not always take. That is why Yah sent His prophets time and again to warn His people to stop whoring and get back in The Way. Finally He sent His son to do the same but like in the parable, they also killed the Son. Now the new tenants, the Gentile Christians, are worse than the first ones as they threw out both the proverbial baby with the bath water thinking they are doing Yah a favor. Yah is still looking for the few faithful ones that decry the breaking of HIS way, The Way, be they Jew or Gentile. Yah is looking for the ones that are really ready to listen, to trust and obey, and to be doers, not just hearers of The Word. Yes, Torah must be in our hearts and minds like it says in Heb 8:6-12 which cites Jer 31:31-34. We will know them by their fruits. If we say we love Him but do not follow Him then what are we really saying?
Shalom

it is my understanding; the laws and ordences were done away with, when jesus came and died on the cross. thereafter only the 10 commandmends remained from the old ways, and the rest is by grace, beleiving in jesus the son of god, and doing his works as best you can, remember paul’s writting are inspired and the parts that are not paul states this. remember the man that asked jesus which commandments? remember the one;s jesus replyed to him? and loving the brother as thyself. this is an important scriptire. i have not quoted it exactly and have not added the book and chapter and vrs. but you all know they are there. i say that because sometimes these things come into my mind and i give the main important parts without thinking, instead of stopping to find the exact place the verses are.

8:1
“Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;”

What is being said here is that, “The main or significant point to what we are saying is this. We have a High Priest who has sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven

8:2
“ A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.”

And that He (Yeshua) serves in the sanctuary, which is the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, and not by a mere human being.

8:3
“For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.”

Because every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, it was also necessary for Yeshua to have something to offer too.

8:4
“For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:”

But if Yeshua was on earth, He wouldn’t be a priest, because there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the law.

8:5
“Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.”

Theses priests serve at a sanctuary that is a “copy and shadow” of what is in heaven. And this is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown to you on the mountain.”

8:6
“But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

But in fact, the ministry Yeshua has received is superior to theirs, and He is the Mediator of a superior New Covenant, one that is better than the old one, being established on better promises.

8:7
“For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.”

For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, then there would be no reason whatsoever to change it and create the second Covenant.
(Neither would it have been necessary for Yeshua to die on your behalf, because there would have been no necessity for Him to shed His blood for those that could simply accomplish everything on their own through the law.) Just a factual ad-lib there. (Do you honestly believe that Yeshua was just simply a sin offering and not immensely more?)

8:8
“For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:”

However, since God found fault with the people, He said, “The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.

8:9
“Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.”

“It will not be like the covenant that God made with their ancestors”, when He took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to His “Old” covenant, and He turned away from them. (declares the Lord).

8:10
“For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:”

God says that in His New Covenant the one that is different from the Old one, that “this is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

8:11
“And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.”

Well the above has begun with Yeshua’s death and resurrection, but it hasn’t fully come to fruition and been realized in its fulness yet, (if it had this site, and this fruitless discussion wouldn’t be happening), but what the above is stating is that when it is fully realized, “No longer will they teach their neighbour, or say to one another, “Know the Lord,” because they will all know Him, from the least of them to the greatest.”

8:12
“For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.”

And again this hasn’t fully come to fruition, for we still have the judgement of believers that takes place, the “wise and foolish virgins” which Peter talks of in 1 Peter 4;17., However the text is saying, “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”

And I must say, that I do find it amusing that you happened to leave this particular last verse out above.

8:13
“In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.”

By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and out-dated will soon simply disappear.

How could you have possibly chosen these particular passages to somehow substantialise what you believe, is beyond me?
If anything, they are far more supportive for those that hold the position that Yeshua is the Rock of our foundation and all that is necessary.

Oh and while I have you here, why is it that whenever I ask for specificity regarding Scripture from any of you that would substantiate what you claim, its never forthcoming?

Believe what you wish to believe.
We’ll wait and see as to how it all works out in the end.

Yeshua is my Everything.
He is the end of the law for righteousness for I choose to partake of His. (Romans 10:4.)
He has redeemed me from the Law, (Galatians 3:13.)
I am fully complete if I abide in Him. (Colossians 2:10.)

I was a son and when I went to see my Father. I called Him Father – I had that legal right to call him that. No body but a son or daughter can call their Father their Father and mean it. By virtue of blood’life

My Mother lived with her Husband who was my father. But Moms husband.

My Uncle would visit my Father – and I was a nephew to my uncle.

Now myself. When my children come over they all call me Father. That’s their legal right cause it is true. Yet I am still a son to my Father

When My wife address’s me she calls me by her legal right my Husband. Or by my Name cause we are one flesh.

When my Grandchildren come over – I’m a Grand Father.

When I meet a stranger my name is Tom.

NOW the Bottom line:
Me Tom — was a son, and in time i became a father, In time I married a wife and I’m her husband, my uncle comes to see me and still call’s me a nephew. on and on and on.

So I have had many manifestation’s in my “seasons of time” and I’m only ONE MAN. All my attributes or qualities of humanity are just manifestations of my ONE LIFE. But when somebody wants me to write them a check in my Family or paying bills to strangers I always . Sign the Check — Tom York.

Cause that is me the son making a distinction of my person- notice – not different persons or personalities. I’ve always only had ONE person living in me. If we have multiple personalities then you are DEMON POSSESSED.

As a Father , Son and Husband and Uncle, Cousin, a Friend I always had just ONE SPIRIT motivating my life. In each visit from my family tree.

When you want to find someone. In the phone book or world you had better KNOW THEIR “NAME” are you will never find them.

From the Very beginning of my Beginning. And before my beginning I was IN GOD before the foundation of the world was. And He knew my name and I like wise knew His name. Not names. Gods attributes speak for Himself. But He has a Name. “Lord Jesus Christ”. Tell me in the Bible where they ever baptized in Father, Son and Holy Ghost. You literals. You will not find it. John did not baptize in Jesus Name cause the sacrifice was not even done at that time period. Christ had not risen from the Grave or died yet for our sins. He no doubt baptized in his own name as many did in that day. Everything the disciples did was in Jesus Name. Why do you always resist the Holy Spirit as Stephen said to the whole of Israel.

Acts. 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands as saith the prophet. = not the theologians.
49. Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest? = is this a Spiritual house or a stone house. I’m being silly to prove a point.
50 Hath not my hand made all these things?
51. Ye stiff necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

I did not become another person when talking to all different Dispensations of time with my Family’s generations. Person – One personality always. No matter who I talked to. If you have 3 different persons= personalities then you are bound to be mixed up before you ever start. That is the biggest problem we have now.

We were most all raised up in the CC doctrine a “trinity, or twinity, and even now they got 4 in their Godhead =Mary. And very few do not understand the mystery of the 3 Gods. Knowing who Jesus IS is one of the most important revelations you have to have in the beginning of your walk. But most were like me. They told me they were 3 separate beings up their waiting to shake my hand. Everything contrary to that was anti-christ to them. Hey that is Assemblies of God, Church of God, Holiness church’s, Baptist, Methodiest you name it cause most every denomination are the daughters of Jezebel. Rev. 2 church’s of the dead.
It was just the opposite way around. Stiff necked, can not hear, resisting the Holy Spirit who will not always strive with man.

I cannot explain it anymore clearer than this post. And I’m not mad or trying to make any of you mad. But their has to come a time reckoning. I love you all enough to be the outcast. so be it.

So true. Our Christian brothers and sisters need to get an understanding of who they really are. That this is not just a “religious” discussion. The things we say and do here will not be forgotten. They are written down and will either justify us or condemn us on that day.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Matthew 12:37

“For by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned.”

Hosea 8:1-12

1 “Put the trumpet to your lips!
An eagle is over the house of the Lord
because the people have broken my covenant
and rebelled against my law.
2
Israel cries out to me,
‘Our God, we acknowledge you!’
3
But Israel has rejected what is good;
an enemy will pursue him.
4
They set up kings without my consent;
they choose princes without my approval.
With their silver and gold
they make idols for themselves
to their own destruction.
5
Samaria, throw out your calf-idol!
My anger burns against them.
How long will they be incapable of purity?
6
They are from Israel!
This calf—a metalworker has made it;
it is not God.
It will be broken in pieces,
that calf of Samaria.
7
“They sow the wind
and reap the whirlwind.
The stalk has no head;
it will produce no flour.
Were it to yield grain,
foreigners would swallow it up.
8
Israel is swallowed up;
now she is among the nations
like something no one wants.
9
For they have gone up to Assyria
like a wild donkey wandering alone.
Ephraim has sold herself to lovers.
10
Although they have sold themselves among the nations,
I will now gather them together.
They will begin to waste away
under the oppression of the mighty king.
11
“Though Ephraim built many altars for sin offerings,
these have become altars for sinning.
12
I wrote for them the many things of my law,
but they regarded them as something foreign.

Before “The Law” was given to Moses – God’s law was present and active.

If this is a serious discussion, then please go back in history.

Let’s go back a few generations before Moses, reading some history, seeing how God deals with “sin”.

Oh, yes – sin!

I think the real issue is “sin” and what to do about sin.

Jesus is the atonement for sin, once and for all. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. He is the Word made flesh. He is my Messiah.

Now, for some “pre-law” history.

Where is “The Law” ?!

“In the course of time Cain brought to the Lord an offering of the fruit of the ground, and Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat portions.

And the Lord had regard for Abel and his offering, but for Cain and his offering He had no regard.

So Cain was very angry, and his face fell (countenance; a look or expression indicative of emotions and/or thoughts).

The Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen? If you do well, [pleasing unto God] will you not be accepted?

And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its [sin’s] desire is for you, but you must rule over it [sin].”

Please, stop and re-read the above passage again and again.

Did Cain have a copy of the 10 Commandment handy?

But, do you see “The Law” active within this text?

Yet, do we see “sin” active within the passage?

How could Cain recognize that he was in troubled? How did Cain learn he was “in trouble” with God?

We can see that the Holy Spirit was active too, yes?

God, by the Spirit of Council, (Isaiah 11:2-3) was active, speaking to Cain.

God sure noticed Cain’s emotions and gave Cain council, yes?

Cain rejects God’s council, which provided Cain a way to make amends, and remain in communion with Him, yes?

What happens next, without any 10 Commandments?

Sin does to work with anger, then bringing forth death (Able physically and Cain spiritually).

“Cain spoke to Abel his brother. And when they were in the field, Cain rose up against his brother Abel and killed him.

Then the Lord said to Cain, “Where is Abel your brother?”

He said, “I do not know; am I my brother’s keeper?”

And the Lord said, “What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood is crying to me from the ground. And now you are cursed from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. When you work the ground, it shall no longer yield to you its strength. You shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth.”

Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is greater than I can bear. Behold, you have driven me today away from the ground, and from Your face I shall be hidden [darkness, spiritually].

I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.”

Then the Lord said to him, “Not so! If anyone kills Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold.”

And the Lord put a mark on Cain, lest any who found him should attack him. Then Cain went away from the presence of the Lord and settled in the land of Nod, east of Eden. (Genesis 4, ESV).

In conclusion –

I think this ongoing (brought up again and again) discourse of “Law vs. Grace” is a distraction and diversion, which seems to be spreading discord among the brethren (Proverbs 6).

“Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant, equip you with everything good that you may do His will, working in us that which is pleasing in His [God’s] sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen” (Hebrews 13:19-21, ESV).

Gregg I don’t wish to play back and forth either, and you are right Yeshua is the Word and as such He will not deny or destroy Himself.
Mat 5:17-19
17 “Don’t even begin to think that I have come to do away with the Law and the Prophets. I haven’t come to do away with them but to fulfill them. 18 I say to you very seriously that as long as heaven and earth exist, neither the smallest letter nor even the smallest stroke of a pen will be erased from the Law until everything there becomes a reality. 19 Therefore, whoever ignores one of the least of these commands and teaches others to do the same will be called the lowest in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever keeps these commands and teaches people to keep them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

Mat 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil G4137 all righteousness. Then he suffered him.”

Firstly let us remember Yeshua was a Rabbi and would of course teach using the common rabbinical style of His day. In rabbinic fashion to ‘destroy Torah’ mean giving it its wrong interpretation and to ‘fulfill it’ meant to give it its true, correct meaning. With this in mind let us ask ourselves some basic questions: Is Yeshua contradicting Himself in Mat 5:17-19? How can He both “do away with the law” by fulfilling it and yet say at the say time not a yod from it will disappear while there is earth and heaven? Is it possible that the word pleiroo (yes that is one of its spellings…) or pléroo has other meanings? How come it was His custom to go to synagogue every Sabbath as were the custom of the apostles even after His resurrection? Why is it that in Acts 15:21 the apostles still expect new converts to attend synagogue every Sabbath to learn Torah? Why is it we are still supposed to observe His holly Sabbath and feasts during the millennium, Isa 66, Zac 14? How come Heb 8:6-12 which quotes Jer 31:31-34 speaks of placing that same Torah in the hearts and minds of His people Judah and Israel (to which Gentiles are supposed to graft themselves according to Rom 11)? Could it be that the Hellenistic anti-Semitic mind set of the (Roman) ‘church fathers’ has altered the true intent of Yeshua’s words giving it its opposite meaning?
Yeshua came to fully teach the word of Yah giving it its real meaning, not destroying it.

Short very informative video on pléroo/pleiroo:

Excerpts from a good article on the subject:

Did Christ “end” the Law? (Part 1, Mat. 5:17-18, Lk.16:17)
What did Christ do to the law in Mat. 5:17-18? Christ said, “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.” (Mat. 5:17). Many interpret this to say that what he meant was that he fulfilled the law “for us” so that we do not have to obey the law, as though there is a difference between nullification by fulfillment and nullification by destruction. Perhaps we should first ask, what did he “not come to” do?
What did Christ mean when he said, “not . . . destroy, . . . not . . . destroy”?
From http://www.blueletterbible.org] “destroy”, (Gk.) katalyo, Strong’s 2647:
1. to dissolve, disunite
a) (what has been joined together), to destroy, demolish
b) metaph. to overthrow, i.e. render vain, deprive of success, bring to naught
1) to subvert, overthrow
a) of institutions, forms of government, laws, etc., to deprive of force, annul, abrogate, discard
From Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance:
“2647 kataluo, to loosen down (disintegrate) i.e. (by impl.) to demolish (lit. or fig.); spec. to halt for the night: –(trans. as) destroy, dissolve, be guest, lodge, come to nothing, overthrow, throw down.”
Christ said that he did “not come” to dissolve, or disunite the law.
He did “not come” to destroy or demolish the law.
He did “not come” to overthrow, render vain, bring the law to nothing.
He did “not come” to subvert or overthrow the law.
Does “fulfill” mean to “end” in Mat. 5:17?
From http://www.blueletterbible.org: “fulfill”, (Gk.) pleroo, Strong’s 4137:
1. to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full
a) to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally
From Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance:
“4137 pleroo [from 4134 complete, full], to make replete, i.e. (lit.) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (fig.) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence, satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.:— (trans. as) accomplish, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfill, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.”
“Fulfill” 4137 pleroo, is translated as “fulfill” in all the following scriptures. Substitute the words, “end”, or “abolish”, or “annul” and see if these statements still make sense.
Mat. 3:15 “And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becomes us to fulfill [pleroo] all righteousness. Then he suffered him.”
[Did Christ’s baptism “end, abolish, or annul” all righteousness?]
Phil. 2:2 “Fulfill [pleroo] you my joy, that you be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.”
[Did Paul want his joy ended, abolished, or annulled?]
Col. 1:25 “Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill [pleroo] the word of God;”
[Was Paul’s ministry to “end, abolish or annul” the word of God?]
Col. 4:17 “And say to Archippus, Take heed to the ministry which you have received in the Lord, that you fulfill [pleroo] it.”
[Did Paul want Archippus’ ministry “ended, abolished, annulled”?]
2Ths. 1:11 “Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill [pleroo] all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:”
[Did Paul pray that the Thessalonians would “end, abolish or annul” all the good pleasure of God’s goodness and the work of faith?]
The heaven and the earth have not yet perished.
All things prophesied have not yet been fulfilled.
Therefore nothing in the law has yet passed away or perished

Gregg if you would read scripture with Hebrew eyes instead of Greek ones you would understand where I am coming from. Scripture was written by Hebrews with a Hebrew mind set and thus needs to be understood from their perspective, not ours. Western society has inherited lies due to the influence of demons and devils that have used Rome to bring about confusion or Babylon in our mist. By and large that is man’s inheritance and we need to shake it off as it permeates everything we say and do.

Yeshua was a Torah practicing Jew. This by all means does not mean He kept all of Torah as it would be impossible for any man to do so inasmuch as some of Torah applies only to woman, some to Levites, etc. He did however keep CORRECTLY all that pertained to Him. He taught His apostles the correct interpretation or manner of following Torah which they continued to do till they died.* There were myriads (over 10,000) Jews that also believed but continued zealous for Torah, Acts, 21:20. This was the expectation for new converts, Acts 15:21. This is as it will continue to be during the millennium, including the nations that survive, Isa 66, Zac 14.

I use Heb 8:6-12 precisely because it quotes directly Jer 31:31-34, which was originally written in Hebrew (although some would argue the book of Hebrews was also written in Hebrew I won’t get into that). At the time of the Apostles the writings of the apostles had not been compiled into a book. The scriptures they all used to teach and give the good news about Yeshua were the Tanach or Hebrew Bible (“OT”). The two pages titled “Old Testament” and “New Testament” are nowhere to be found in any scripture; these were added later on by some misguided Christian church “father” so I won’t use them (I tear them from my bibles) as they bring more confusion or Babylon. I prefer using the term Apostle’s Writings but that is personal. Just writing all this to say that Heb8:6-12 is interchangeable with Jer 31:31-34 which is what the apostles used originally. Are we to say that the Jewish apostles were using scripture with other Hebrews that in essence was telling them “guess what you have been replaced by Gentiles, and furthermore, you wasted your time all your lives trying to follow Torah, we got a new set of instructions or Torah for you”. Really and these same Hebrews whom they were trying to reach following Yeshua’s command to reach the lost sheep of Israel just smiled and went along? The same myriads of Jews following Yeshua and still zealous for Torah(Acts 21:20) just sat there when they told them Torah is done away with as the Greeks would have us believe? What’s more, turned around and kept Torah themselves and even called it good,1Tim 1:8?

Let’s have another look at Jer 31:31-34 in its original Hebrew mind set:
Question to keep in mind while reading these passages: with whom is He making the renewed covenant? Why not like the first covenant if it is written about the first one that is forever? Where was the first one written and where is the renewed one written? Why is it in the heart now? What changed since the CONTENTS of the renewed covenant have remained the same as before?

30 (31) “Here, the days are coming,” says ADONAI, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Isra’el and with the house of Y’hudah. 31 (32) It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers on the day I took them by their hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt; because they, for their part, violated my covenant, even though I, for my part, was a husband to them,” says ADONAI. 32 (33) “For this is the covenant I will make with the house of Isra’el after those days,” says ADONAI: “I will put my Torah within them and write it on their hearts; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 33 (34) No longer will any of them teach his fellow community member or his brother, ‘Know ADONAI’; for all will know me, from the least of them to the greatest; because I will forgive their wickednesses and remember their sins no more.”
34 (35) This is what ADONAI says,
who gives the sun as light for the day,
who ordained the laws for the moon and stars
to provide light for the night,
who stirs up the sea until its waves roar —
ADONAI-Tzva’ot is his name:”

Well said. Many think this is a useless and destructive conversation to have. Messiah is working to move the Gentiles to Messiah the Word (Torah), while He is also working to move the Jews to Messiah the Lamb (our sin sacrifice). It is at the least confrontational, but a voice needs to given to both sides of the discussion without timidity. If we cling to one side or the other, our voice is compromised and of no affect. Our completeness in Messiah is not an either or choice. It is both Messiah the Word and the Lamb where we find the fulfillment of who Messiah is. You will not find much support here, but your voice is necessary. The seed of understanding must be planted, whether the one doing the planting actually sees the harvest. The increase is from the work of Messiah. All any one can do is follow the path that Messiah has given them to walk, and leave the outcome in His hands. I write this to encourage you in something that is needful and necessary, but also at times draining and somewhat frustrating.

Too briefly comment on your last post above, I do have a relatively proficient usage of both Hebrew and Greek, however I don’t place any weight upon one more than the other, for I believe that God was fully aware of what He was doing when He provided His Word to be recorded in both languages.

I do find it unfortunately amusing that in finally providing some Scripture which you believe to be supportive to one of your positions, that the majority of it contains writings that occurred before the New Covenant took effect. And where those of “Acts” are still consisting of when Paul was attempting to convert those of his fellow Jews, before committing himself to only that of the Gentiles. And as well, how you have completely misinterpreted the meaning of 1 Corinthians 5;7,8., with the hopes that it is somehow supportive to that which you believe, (which explains a lot actually).

Look this will be my last post in respects to this particular topic, however I wish to make you aware of my motivations regarding it.
I do not do this based upon my own need for affirmation, but rather out of my concern for others.

It truly baffles me as to how some have accepted this viewpoint without taking into consideration aspects which would go beyond their 9-dots of comprehension, and instead rely upon that of what they have been told, or by their own interpretation of what Scripture is in actuality saying.

Point one;

If one has developed a theology based solely upon Scripture, then their theology must line up exactly with what is stated. If something is presented within the Word that would cause conflict with what they believe, they don’t simply disregard that, (and continue on merrily), but should instead be willing to be lead by The Spirit to help them understand that conflict, and then reconcile their theology by eliminating that conflict.
God is absolutely right, and if something regarding our theology doesn’t appear to line up accordingly, then it is “we” that are absolutely wrong.

So let’s look at a couple of things that have been stated by you and others, during the course of this debate, that have been proposed as being logically sound facts to support your point of view.

It has been said, that the only Scripture that was available for the Berean’s to utilize would have been the Tanakh.

I would wholeheartedly agree with that, for all of what is written within Scripture MUST BE FULFILLED.

So logically if there were No significant changes within this New Covenant, all that would have been necessary to supplement the Tanakh, would have been the Gospel’s, explaining that indeed “Yeshua was the prophesied Mashiach”.

So did God make a mistake?
Did Yeshua make a mistake in choosing and catching up Paul to be an Apostle to the Gentiles?
Is the rest of the New Covenant Scripture simply redundant?
Or are we provided with further information within them?

(NOTE; Regarding the “Scripture Must Be Fulfilled” above.
Please read, Luke 4:21., Mark 15:28., John 13:18., 17:12., 19:24., 19:28., 19;36., Acts 1:16. and James 2:23., all of which utilize the transliterated word “plēroō” so you could perhaps receive an understanding as to how the context of the word is to be understood. These all state that this was done so that Scripture would be COMPLETED and FULFILLED as written. If you apply that same understanding to Matthew 5:17. it just may leave you questioning your current position.)

Point Two;

Yeshua was born by a woman, (not a man and a woman- Genesis 3;15.), born under the Law, to “redeem” them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.” (Galatians 4:4,5.)

Now before continuing let’s look at the Greek “ἐξαγοράζω”, transliterated as “exagorazō” so the understanding of this word “redeem” can be applied correctly to the verses above. The definitions of exagorazō are, “to redeem. by payment of a price to recover from the power of another, to ransom, buy off. metaph. of Christ freeing the elect from the dominion of the Mosaic Law at the price of his vicarious death. to buy up, to buy up for one’s self, for one’s use. to make wise and sacred use of every opportunity for doing good, so that zeal and well doing are as it were the purchase money by which we make the time our own”

Hello?

Yeshua was born as a man, (the last Adam, 1 Corinthians 15:20-22.), and was born under and subjected to the Mosaic Law. Why?
Well, so that He could COMPLETE and FULFILL the Law on man’s behalf. “Both Law and Sin are intimately interwoven.” If you believe that Yeshua died for your sins, then you also have to accept that Yeshua died to FREE you from the Law. If you don’t then you are not accepting the fulness of His death for you. At the time of His death on the cross, and at the time of His resurrection after that, the New Covenant came into effect. (See Hebrews 9:14-17.)

Yeshua walked within the Law, and died and was raised, so that I could walk “in” Him in Spirit, rather than being subjected to that Law.

How do I reconcile Matthew 5:18. then you might ask?

Well since I believe what God says, I would have to believe this particular verse as well then, and say, that “Yes” the Law is still in force.
However since Scripture also says above that Yeshua has “redeemed” me from the Law, and that in attempting to earn ones own righteousness by working the Law one will “fall from grace”, (Galatians 5:4.) then I understand that for me in accepting all that Yeshua has provided for us with His death on that cross, that I am not “under or subjected” to that Law, (Acts 13:39., Romans 6:14., 1 Corinthians 9:20,21., Galatians 5:18,).

“Yes” the Law is still in force, but not for those that are “IN” Yeshua. The Law that is still in force will be utilized to judge all that aren’t “IN” Yeshua, and all that don’t do each and every precept that is comprised of the Law, (Romans 2;12., 3;19., Galatians 3:10., 3:23., and especially Galatians 4:21-31.)

How can you ignore or misinterpret these verses? As I said above it simply baffles me?
By the way I have provided more supportive Scripture than any of you do to prove within Gods Word, why I believe what I am told to believe.

But off you’ll go, not bothering to read it, nor comprehend it, and you’ll continue to feel that you’re somehow being obedient by following some dietary law. Whereas you can’t fulfill that exactly either, for it is impossible to butcher any animal (whether deemed as clean or not previously), without consuming of its fat or blood. There are miles of capillaries’ that still contain “blood” whether it is butchered in a kosher fashion or not, and fat cells are literally everywhere. Therefore you are still breaking the law of eating both fat and blood if you eat any meat at all! (Leviticus 3:17., 7:26., 17:14., 19:26., and on and on and on.)

Haven’t any of you bothered to take into consideration that the word “apostasia” is only used twice within Scripture within 2 Thessalonians 2:3., as “Falling Away” and Acts 21:21., as “Forsake”? What do you think that the possible connection there might be?

Since God works both “progressively and cyclically” with man, (not one or the other as some would believe), is it possible that verses such as “Psalms 69:22,23. and Romans 11:8., could be utilized again, “Let their table become a snare and a trap, A stumbling block and a recompense to them.”?

There is so much contained within New Covenant text regarding all foods being pure, (except that offered to idols), it’s ridiculous.
Food has nothing to do with mans heart for food simply is expelled. (Mark 7:14-19.)

There could be Point Three, Four, Five etc. etc. but I am sure that it would only fall upon deaf ears, so I’ll simply stop here.

Below DJ has posted a comment regarding as to when “Law” was first present, though I know that you had glanced at the rather lengthy post that I had made on the Ten Commandment page on this site upon my temporary return, perhaps you should re-read it, for there was only One Law before sin entered the world, and the Ensuing Law was to address the Sin and Magnify it, so that Yeshua would be the One and Only One that could actually address it once and for all.

My Faith is to depend totally upon Yeshua for Everything.
He is the Fulness of my hope.

DJ Absolutely, what you point out here is very much correct, specially your questions: “Did Cain have a copy of the 10 Commandment handy?

But, do you see “The Law” active within this text?

Yet, do we see “sin” active within the passage?

How could Cain recognize that he was in troubled? How did Cain learn he was “in trouble” with God?

If I may add on the same vein some more questions: How did Noah know which animals were clean and which unclean as indicated in Gen 7:2? After all he wind up with 14 (7 pairs) of each of the clean ones and only 2(1 pair) of the unclean ones… What did he need all those clean animals for?

Why does Gen 26 speaks of Abraham obeying Torah if Yeshua still had not handed down to Moses the ten words in tablets of rock? What of Enoch, what was he obedient about?

Amen Gregg — 2 commandments fulfilled the Law. Jesus said it. I believe it. He fulfilled it all in His life. And look at the Pharisee’s how they condemned Him constantly taking council to Kill Jesus Christ.
Jesus said the “New Wine” they will resist. You cannot put New Wine into Old Wine skins.

Jesus would have died in vain to stay in Moses law. It was just a shadow, schoolmaster to bring in the New Wine. The Lord called a Jew name Paul who knew the law better than any of us do. And he told the Galation’s who has bewitched you. That after starting in the Spirit you go back to the Fleshly things. Serving Days, months, times etc.
Paul said the Law was the school master that brought us to Christ. Their are 2 covenants. The “Old Jerusalem” and the “New Jerusalem from Above” which is free. That freedom does not mean live anyway you want to. The law is fulfilled in Loving God and your fellowman with all your heart. The law is written upon tablets of your heart.

If Paul had not challenged Peter, and James etc. at the council in Jerusalem. Then when men got saved today. We would have to go to the back room and get circumcised. I’m sooooo glad Paul was their representing the Gentiles and Jew. Circumcision is of the Heart and always has been. Or I could say Salvation has always been from the heart of mankind.

Gregg – I enjoy your posts and learn from them. And I’m not trying to patronize you either. I have been a loner many years and use to it .

It has come to my remembrance that also the Sun of righteouness is our Lord Christ Jesus. Yet its apparent that the sun is a scorching fire and dries up water. The water of life in this case; or does it?

Strictly speaking, the sun does not work against water, but with it. Its what we all know as the hydrological cycle, simply meaning the water cycle. The sun enables rain, and the waters cool down the earth. So indeed they compliment each other or rather we could say they symbiotically exist.

Now as I see we are debating the law, the law did not even have a beginning, because the word of God is law, and that word was with God and was God.

The very first instruction in law, or its sum is to know God accurately for the One Lord He is, and to love him without all any reserve. The second coclusion is to love our neighbours as we do ourselves. On these two hangs the entire law and prophets.

So lets not be hasty in leaving behind the discussionm of the first and greatest law, that God is one Lord.

Now there is somthing I think I know about God, and would share it with you : Its that God is a dreadful judge. For He truly is the law himself to the letter. Why else do you supposse He had his description as the greatest law? When one fails tio know God as He really is, then they know not the law.

But we are saved by Grace, and not by the law. For it is the law that condemn, and we are all condemned people, in the law.

Now God once asked who can deliver out of his hand. And ge dared all who might think they can deliver from the condemnation of God, and indeed there is none. None can deliver from the condemnation of the law, which condemnation is strictly speaking, condemnation by God. You well recall at Eden, the Law comes about strawling looking for trouble makes and catches a trinity on the long sude of the law, the Serpent, Adam and Eve. They were the first trinity we encounter, who agreed in one, that is iniquity, yet the Law handed them specific condemnations.

Any way, my point is that God, the law is strict Judge and will not laugh at iniquity, and NO one can deliver out if his hand.

So when we all were condemned, the Judge, who passed our verdict, could not come around in the robes of the Judge, for then we all wiuld just vanish. Yet the judge required to experience where we all go wrong as men. He thus came down from heaven and dorned on the cloths of the Redeemer, who could rescue us fro the hands of the strict Judge, whose verdict we need to remember has no one who can assail, well, except for Himself alone.

So this Savior, who saves from the condemnation of the One from whom NO one can save, implies only that this Saviour is the same who had condemned. Or ekse there is no salvation.

Thus as much as we are joyous of salvation, lets remember that in this matter of the law, there is none who could save from the hand of the Judge, except the Judge himself, yet this He would not effect as the judge, but as the saviour.

Thus when we read the Apostles, they were clear in their writings, that we give thanks unto the Lord God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. Not two persons but two diverse specific duties of the Lord Jesus Christ. The first being to condemn us in our unrighteousness, the second one to rescue us from this terrible condemnation, that we may once again live as He had first established us.

But when our creativity begins to show us scriptures of two diverse Lords, then we understand amiss, and cannot claim salvation for none whatsoever can deliver from the condemnation of God. Especially not his sons, as we all claim now to be, except for God Himself.

Besides, had the Lord come straight on declaring that He was really the Father, Creator of heaven and earth, and dreadful Judge of iniquity, wiith the body of a 12 year old lad, we would all just laugh him to scorn, me included, and also you all. So He took us slow, step by step, first a few miracles, then more powerful ones, and by the time He had been murdered, and arisen again, it would all sink down that truly this was not just a man. So in between He claimed to be son of God, for our ears still tingle, we cant handle bare truth. When we can eventually, we shall know that this son of God, in both the law, and the testimony, which is to say reality defined, can only be the same One Lord and Father.

Thats why Jesus only declared that He was actually the Father only at the end of His ministry on earth. He had always kniwn it, but the disciples had not attained that stage if understanding. Eventually they all did, Paul and Thomas among them last.

So with us in our generation, its now time to know Jesus as the Father Eternal He always has been, and to unveil the evil deceit of the trinity for the antichrist it is, the seat of Satan in the souls of men.

Not only the trinity, but as Bro Beacon hear terms twinitarians is as much as the other, for they all cannot claim justly that Jesus Christ is Lord (Supreme). which is to say that Grace undoes the vondemnation of the law.

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Love of God (for which we were made to be, and rebuked in condemnation even unto death when we sinned) and the fellowship of the Holy-spirit (power of Christ indwelling us to sanctify-enable us be good), be with us always. Amen

Now I heard some place above, that we only get the Spirit of God when we believe; who the convicts the wthe world of sin, abd does he do it remotely, and who even draws us with cords of everlasting love to bring us to ‘believe’?

John (Waltz777) I agree with you whole heartedly that this post, “God With Feet” has sure brought up a flurry of discussion. (I had been asking for some “Bible Study” and we have been running the gamut here.) 🙂

Also, you shared, “god bless amd thanks for the prayers for my back and left leg. the pain is still there but not at levels of 7-8 all the time. i should also thank everyone else that has prayed.”

John, it is so good to hear that you have had some relief from your back and leg pain (whatever made it so.) Earlier this week I had a cortisone shot in the left SI joint (no one in 20 years had offered me this, and I know you have tried these) and for the first time in 20 years I am not having that “tooth ache” you know so well.

May you continue to be blessed. I enjoy your contributions to this board.

denise; i am very happy that the tooth-ache pain has gone away for you. praise god. anyone that has the symptoms of nerve root compression in their spine knows that it is unrelenting. and probally the worst pain a human can go through. through my life i have had several collapsed lungs, on the right lung (spontanious), a dvt and pe in the left lung, migraine headacks, teeth that had exposed nerve roots. 98% kidney failure do to a medication, but none of those compare (except the tooth nerve being exposed), to spinal nerve root compression. hope the shot stops this from comming back for you. god bless.

Thank you, Marianne, I will take all the prayers coming my way ….. At least I am not at the high end of the pain scale at the moment, but the lower end. And I still have a ways to go, for, the best that I know, it will be for as long as I walk the earth here.

The county I live in, they are desperate for jurors in our courtrooms, and the same doctor who gave me the shot, also took me off of jury duty for at minimum a year – I can’t sit for very long! 🙂 But, at least it is now more bearable.

I am retired now (from my law enforcement career), and it seems all of my other activities, volunteer works, senior center, CERT, etc., have all been stripped from me. So, I am left to work on myself, and have a whole lot of quiet time with the Lord, for study, contemplation, and prayer.

well; that makes three of us in the same boat. at least the lord is at the helm. i have found a great blessing, for many,many, years i have spoken to all of those who sit in darkness that the lord set before me, as he does with all of his soldiers. we are flickering lights in a very dark world, but the flickering lights are seen by others from far away and come closer wondering in a world of darkness what they are. and at the end of their journey they find people just like themselves with one exception; they do not fear the darkness. and some of those who come find themselves flickering lights, and they part and say; one day there shall be no need for the darkness, for the whole world will full of lights.

Just received the following message via e-mail the other day. Hummm? Perfect timing. Thank you Lord.

WALKING PLEASINGLY Before THE LORD
by David Wilkerson

“Enoch walked with God” (Genesis 5:24).

“The original Hebrew meaning for walked implies that Enoch walked arm in arm with God, continually conversing with Him and growing closer
to Him. Enoch lived 365 years or, a “year” of years.

In him we see a new kind of believer. The Lord was his very life-so
much so that at the end of his life, he did not see death
(see Hebrews 11:5).

Enoch learned to walk pleasingly before God in the midst of a
wicked society. He was an ordinary man with all the same
problems and burdens we carry, not a hermit hidden away in a
wilderness cave, ‘hiding to be holy.’ He was involved in life with
a wife, children, obligations and responsibilities.

“Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him”
(Genesis 5:24).

We know from Hebrews that this verse speaks of Enoch´s translation, the fact that he did not taste death. But it also means something deeper. The phrase ‘he was not’ as used in Genesis 5 also means ‘he was not of this world.’

In his spirit and in his senses, Enoch was not a part of this wicked
world. Each day as he walked with the Lord he became less
attached to the things of the world.

Like Paul, he died daily to this earth life and he was taken up in his spirit to a heavenly realm. Yet, while he walked on Earth, Enoch undertook all his responsibilities but none of the demands of this life could keep him from his walk with God.

Hebrews 11:5 says clearly: “Before [Enoch´s] translation he had
this testimony, that he pleased God.”

What was it about Enoch that pleased God so much?

It was that his walk with God produced in him the kind of faith God loves.

These two verses cannot be separated: “Before [Enoch´s] translation
he had this testimony, that he pleased God. But without faith it is
impossible to please him” (Hebrews 11:5-6).

We hear this latter verse often, but rarely in connection with the former.

Yet, throughout the Bible and all of history those who walked closely with God became men and women of deep faith.

If the Church is walking with God daily, communing with Him continually, the result will be a people full of faith-true faith that pleases God.”

Your assumption regarding the reason for my posting a reply/comment is not constructive – in my opinion.

By faith –

“Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done” (Matthew 21:21).

Faith comes by “hearing” and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). Hummm? It must be a spiritual ear given to hear.

“But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind” (James 1:6).

In the above texts – Where is the “holy water”? Where is the oil? Where is a piece of paper from a scroll of Scripture when applying faith?

In the above statements we see faith applied by prayer and voicing a command (“Go!”), which is of course in the name of Jesus.

Lying on of hands and/or an application of oil (not Quaker State) are sighted in Scripture to accompany – healing, blessings, and such prayers and supplications. God honors such requests, based on the Scriptures.

I was clear with my purpose when I wrote:

“So, why did I share all of this with you (and post below your reply)?

I think your prescription of “holy water” is not supported by Scriptures and is a dubious application of faith, which may be more harmful (spiritually and physically) than we are aware.”

I explained this by applying Scriptures.

2 Timothy 3:16 tells us, “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness…”

Oil (olive) with a prayer by elders (mature Believers) is the perception given (James 5:14).

Regarding blood – by faith and only by faith ~ His blood does everything. Why even prick my finger for blood to represent His? His blood is sufficient, by faith.

“For the worshipers, once purified would have had no more consciousness of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins…For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats [yours or mine] could [or can today] take away sins [heal, purify and/or renew]” (Hebrews 10:2-4).

He said, “it is finished” and therefore, there is no substitution and/or addition required or needed for cleansing, sanctification or protection by another blood than His already shed.

Through the blood of Jesus, a Believer is sanctified, made holy, set apart to God (Hebrews 13:12).

Through the blood of Jesus, sins of a Believer are forgiven (1st John 1:9).

Through the blood of Jesus, a Believer is continually being cleansed from all sin (1st John 1:7).

Through the blood of Jesus, a Believer is justified, made righteous, just as if they never sinned (Romans 5:9).

Through the blood of Jesus, a Believer is redeemed out of the hand of the devil (Ephesians 1:7).

Through the blood of Jesus, a Believer has boldness [confidence] to enter into the presence of a God (Hebrews 10:19).

The blood of Jesus cries out continually to God in heaven on the behalf of a Believer (Hebrews 12:24).

I agree fully with your post above regarding holy water, and the Scriptural support, (regarding Faith), that you used for the justification for your point.
Holy water within this context is not mentioned once within the New Covenant text.

Initially there was the running water, (the copy and shadow), that was utilized for purification in the Mikveh’s.
After Yeshua we have the, “Authentic Living Water” of the “Holy Spirit”.

And He is maintained solely by Faith, and the demonstration of that Faith. (James 2:14-26.)

However I would like for you to please consider something…..
After utilizing all of that Scripture to justify your point regarding Faith, I would like for you to substitute the subject of that of a supposed “holy water”, to that of a “Kosher Diet”, and see if it would still…… hold water?

“The Just shall live by Faith!” (Habakkuk 2:4., Romans 1:17., Galatians 3:11.,) And especially that of Hebrews 10:38.;

“Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man DRAW BACK, My soul shall have no pleasure in him.”

Above I had stated,

“If one has developed a theology based solely upon Scripture, then their theology must line up exactly with what is stated. If something is presented within the Word that would cause conflict with what they believe, they don’t simply disregard that, (and continue on merrily), but should instead be willing to be lead by The Spirit to help them understand that conflict, and then reconcile their theology by eliminating that conflict.
God is absolutely right, and if something regarding our theology doesn’t appear to line up accordingly, then it is “we” that are absolutely wrong.”

With that in mind, “How do you reconcile the following?”

Romans 10: 2-4.

“For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
(This would be regarding Paul speaking of the Jews zeal for God, but not believing nor possessing the knowledge, that Yeshua was their Messiah)

“For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.”
(This would be stating that the Jews that have not realized or accepted that Yeshua is their Messiah are ignorant,(lacking understanding), and instead continue within the law with the hopes to establish and obtain their own righteousness, (Deuteronomy 6:25.), instead of submitting themselves to the righteousness of God which is Yeshua.)

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.”
(This is simply self explanatory, and is to be understood based upon its face value and what it says.)

If there was never any law, there would have never been any sin……
“Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.” (Romans 4:15.)
And…
“Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.” (1 John 3:4.)

Therefore if you live solely by Faith “IN” Yeshua, (and all that He has done on our behalf), then He is the END OF THE LAW for those that LIVE BY FAITH.

This then reveals the “significance” of what is stated in “Romans 8:1,2.”.
The context in understanding the significance of Romans 8:1,2., is prefaced within what is written within Romans 7:1-25.
Romans 8:1. does not stand alone!
It is conditional to what it is prefaced by.

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are “IN” Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, (referring to the law of Moses) but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life “IN” Christ Jesus hath made me FREE FROM the law of sin and death, (again, referring to the law of Moses).”

Conversely, the above would read;

“There is therefore, CONDEMNATION to them which are “NOT IN” Christ Jesus, who CHOOSE TO walk after the flesh, (referring to the law of Moses) AND NOT after the Spirit. For HAVING MADE THAT CHOICE, the law of the Spirit of life “IN” Christ Jesus HAS NOT made THEM FREE FROM the law of sin and death, (again, referring to the law of Moses).”

Dear Bro. John – and all. We got the Holy spirit when we believed. That is a good Baptist doctrine along with most denominations. That’s called easy believe-ism. And most of them run around powerless over their own flesh.

James 2:19 ‘“Thou believest that there is “”one God;”’ thou doest well: “the devils also believe” , and tremble . “”So do the devils believe””
James 2:20 But wilt thou know , O vain man, that faith without works is dead? — So just saying I believe is not enough.

We have to Believe “”until”” we receive the Holy Ghost which by now we aught to know that is “Jesus Christ Spirit” comes in our Hearts and Minds etc. Taking over the Terrestrial carnal mind. And quicken’s our inner man.

I believed in God all my life cause I was raised in Church. But one day I had to repent of all my sins. At 22 years of age. Cause I was a practicing sinner.

As I have told many people in my life. That the whole essence of my life as a sinner was about myself and the sin I loved and wanted to do. We have to turn our self around and walk another way. An that is hard to do in a moments time. The battle lay before us and we have to be equipped.

Acts, 2:38 Peter said REPENT = turn around and start walking and talking to God publicly and in your closet. The Disciples did that for 3 years. They had Great reverence for the Lord and loved him. And practiced at sanctifying themselves of carnal ways. Yet still carnal in many ways cause they had “no real Revelation of what it was all” about at that time. Like so many in our last day. Christianity just does “not get it” about the Word for this last age.

I do not believe in “A” Apostles creed persey. But Acts Acts. 2:38 would be my closest creed if I had to have one. Receiving the Holy Spirit is not an option. The Holy Ghost is for them that “”Obey him”” as well. But before it ever came the Apostles and even Judas – had their names on the Book of life. And they had faith to follow Christ.

Luke 10:19 Behold , I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

Luke 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice , because ‘’“”your names are written in heaven““’’.

St. John 15:3 – Now “”ye are clean through the word”” which I have spoken unto you. Clean is sanctified.
Jesus is setting them up for after His resurrection and crucifixion. They could receive the Holy Ghost.
5. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

7. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

The above is before the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. So the Holy Ghost was not yet given. But Jesus is already told them their names were in the Book of life in Heaven. And they were sanctified made clean by His word. By Faith the Apostles believed that. And followed Jesus. They were chosen to be like HIM. Yet at this point in time they were being prepared by Jesus Himself to receive HIM in the Spirit not to many days hence for this time. That is a full conversion or regeneration.

Now in Acts. 1:4,5,8
1:4. And, being assembled together with them, “commanded” them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
1:5. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the “”Holy Ghost”” not many days hence.
1:8 But ye “shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you:” and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
NOTICE; The Holy Ghost Power here will be “Revelation power” to “understand the Word of God” Jesus is not leaving them comfortless. He is with them always. IN SPIRIT.

When many denominations do not even believe in the Holy Ghost. Cause they got baptized in water, Or shook the preachers hand , Or signed a book of confession. Has nothing to do with receiving the Holy Spirit.

Jh. 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17. Even the “”Spirit of truth“”; whom the “world cannot receive“, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be IN you.
18 .I will not leave you comfortless: ““I will”” come to you“.

Jh. 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he “”shall teach you ALL things“”, “”and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you“”.

This is why we MUST hear the full Gospel and let God talk to us by HIS word and it will come back to us. He that hath an ear let HIM HEAR what the SPIRIT is saying to the church’s.

NOTICE NOW
The Disciples heard Him gladly for 3 years or better. But it was the experience with the Holy Ghost that changed their complete life and UNDERSTANDING. And also gave them Power as Christ had power to stand before evil men and declare Salvation before them.

Rom. 8: 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. “”Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his“”.
Rom. 8:10- ¶ And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life = eternal because of righteousness.
Rom. 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth IN you.

Easy Believism is one of the most deceiving doctrines in our present AGE. Along with the Mystery of Godhead. It keeps Gods People in darkness. The false anointed ones bring fear into them and the poor comers are scared to death of being deceived and yet will not venture out into the deep water.= WORD. They say wading is safer. But God wants us to swim in His Spirit and Love and Word.

Jesus tells us of these False Prophets in sheep clothing.
Matt. 7:21-24 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the “will of my Father” which is in heaven.
22. Many will say to me in that day, “Lord, Lord“, have we not “prophesied in thy name?” and in thy name have “cast out devils?” and in “thy name” done many “wonderful works“?
23. And then will I profess unto them, “”I never knew you:” depart from me, ye that work iniquity“”.
24. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
FAITH with “”works only”” will not Overcome the problems in this life. You must receive the Holy Spirit.
You see today. They say you got it all. Just by saying I believe in Jesus Christ and He died for me. Now you are a Christian Praise God. Sign our book and start paying tithes.
Join the Choir. You on the way to Heaven.
Its not the peoples fault. it’s the Church’s faults.

The false Prophets say. Look at our great Universities, and Hospitals we built, Our great Church’s that hold thousands of people in them, and we got basket ball courts, and eat in breakfast bars and perfessional musicians and prophets. And look at all the Saved people that have got saved in our church’s because we Prophesy easy believe-ism. And really what the whole thing is Babylon. The church’s own Oil companies, invest in the stock markets, and groups get together and go out with Joel and his friends and charge people to come into their great stadiums that they rent out and end up making a great prophet. Charging people to hear the Gospel is about as low as you can go. To me.
Jesus says just the opposite. “”I have never knew you“”: depart from me ye that work iniquity; Judas all of them. Selling at Christ. For morsels of meat and money and fame and popularity.

No one for years and years could ever explain this to me. But Praise God the Holy Ghost did. After the Holy Ghost was Given. You have to receive it — it is “”not an option.””

That group mentioned above built them a house but it was “”NOT” on the Rock of Revelation. Matt 7: They built theirs on something else called sand. And it did not stand. Judas silver did not help him and it was just a sand box to die in. He never ever received the Holy Spirit leaving him without understanding. And Revelation of the word. Yet he had His name written in heaven. He was made clean by the Word when he was hearing it and applying it. But He could not make it to Pentecost.

The whole of the Death, burial, and Resurrection was the DOOR WAY to the Holy Ghost, Comforter, Power, Guide, Regeneration, Kingdom of God, Grace, Love, Mercy. It had been given to the whole Church who could receive it.

Remember Judas was with the Apostles when Jesus said rejoice that your names are written in Heaven. Judas Loved Jesus as well. He went with the Apostles 2 by 2 to preach the good tidings of the Coming of Christ Kingdom. He healed all manner of disease, and did just what all the other Disciples did in the Name of Jesus. Then told them to go to their Priest and give praise for the miracles and goodness of God.

But when it came judgment time – Jesus told Judas to do what He had to do. Judas sent himself to hell not Jesus.
Lk. 10:20 His name was written in Heaven and he rejoiced.
Jh. 15:3 He was made clean = sanctified by Christ WORD.
BUT – he sold out and was not at Pentecost and lost it all. He Never ever received the Holy Spirit.
That is the same group that is in Matt. 7. The Wide gate.
You cannot slip through the back door. Or a window. Or without a wedding garment on. Not going to happen.

But yes God is sovereign- And always just. I’m glad I do not have to judge anyone. That’s Jesus department. I’m leaving it up to HIM. He just told me to tell it.

Ps. If you have never been “Sealed with the Holy Spirit” then you can fall away from your faith and or sanctification and be lost cause you never had your complete birth. You got stuck in the Birth canal and Life never could go into you. This is the great mystery as well for most of church-anity to understand. When You are Sealed IN Really Sealed IN. Its for forever.

Eph. 4: 26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27. Neither give place to the devil.
28. Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
29. Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

30. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby “”ye are sealed unto the day of redemption””.

31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
32. And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you

Greg, I was under the impression that I have been quoting scripture all along, but no matter, I won’t make it a point of contention.

There are many, including a large number of scholars well versed in both Hebrew and Greek, some even Aramaic, who still fail to see scriptures as essentially a Jewish document written largely by and for Hebrews. I am glad you are proficient in both. A man is not measured by his schooling. Some of the worst offenders are the leaders of religion who in their arrogance have led the sheep astray.

The whole of Scripture is Yah’s attempt to woo back man to reconcile man to Himself. He chose to set apart a people to whom He gave His covenants and promises. He chose to give His people Israel His Instructions for living, some call it Constitution, some ketuba (marriage contract) as that is what they are; a contract that essentially stipulates what they groom and the bride will do. One can see the whole bible as a huge old fashioned Jewish wedding with Papa as the matchmaker. There are many correlations in the bible about old Jewish weddings that lasted a week and were preceded by a long betrothal which could only be broken with a certificate of divorce.
Yah is presently awakening many of His lost sheep. Just as Yeshua told His disciples to look for His lost sheep, the Ruach Ha Kodesh of Yah is, even in some cases, literally awakening some of us and bringing His word alive, starting from Genesis. Don’t be amazed by this because it’s happening and the flood of sheep breaking out of the pen won’t be stopped as we hear the Sheppard’s voice with increased clarity. Shema Israel Yeshua is calling; He never stopped wooing His bride. We are coming home and man’s teachings, philosophies, and traditions will not put a stop to it because the shofar is sounding loud and clear for all who have ears to listen. Alleluyah! We are going back, leaping over nearly 2000 years of Greek mindset if need be. The living Word or Torah, Yeshua the Lamb of Yah, is alive and well and is calling His bride.

He redeemed us and paid the bride price blotting out the liens against us with His own blood and water. The liens, not His Holy Torah that is being written in our hearts, is what was hung on the tree. He surely did not redeem us from His own holy teachings. That is like saying a father does away with his house rules simply because he loves his children and gives them grace…

One cannot try to declare oneself righteous through legalistic observance of Torah, something that Torah was not meant to accomplish. That includes the legalistic observance of Torah ( and thus its perversion) that is dealt with in many of the passages you cite. Torah is the marriage contract or ketuba of the bride. It details the bride’s responsibility with her husband. It does not make the bride righteous but surely the husband being The Righteous one Himself (which is Torah) cannot have closeness with an unrighteous woman thus He becomes her righteousness as the two are knitted together. Torah is placed in the heart of the bride so that righteous living will become a natural part of her just as breathing is . It is by the husband’s grace that the bride receives His Torah, first in tablets of stone and later in the tablets of the heart. If you say you love Him them keep the commandments instead of being like the adulterous woman, Lev 19, Deu 6, John 14:15.

You cite 1 Corinthians 5:7-8 which mainly deals with homosexuality within the body and its acceptance by some. I presume you mean to transfer the ‘old hametz’ out of context to apply to those of us who are being called out to return to Torah observance in the way Yeshua and His disciples did?
If the “law” is still in force but not for those in Yeshua then why is it being written in the hearts and minds of Israel and Judah? Why does it say in Numbers 15 that is for both Israel and Gentiles and why does it say time and again its forever? At least while there is this heaven a earth we are to still have Torah as Yeshua said, Mat 5:17-19. According to Isa 66 and Zac even the nations that survive the great tribulation are to still observe Yah’s Sabbaths. He is the same yesterday today and forever, He changes not. It is written that we really can’t “have faith” if we don’t show it, that we will be known by our fruits. If ‘believers act like non believers, not REALLY doing as Yeshua did then, how can you tell them apart? Did not Yeshua essentially say in Mat 7 that He won’t recognize those who say Lord, lord but basically follow man’s Torah? Rest assured a person either follows Him or fallows the fallen one which is what happens when we do our thing and come up with religious interpretations. In the case of the Christian church it has largely been following the Babylonian precepts that Rome incorporated long ago.

Thank you for presenting the obvious within the first three paragraphs there.

It unfortunately appears, that you even have difficulty in understanding what is written within a post, (let alone, (in my opinion) anything Biblically).
You may have read what I had written above, however you obviously didn’t comprehend it.

This can be substantiated by you saying above, “You cite 1 Corinthians 5:7-8 which mainly deals with homosexuality within the body and its acceptance by some. I presume you mean to transfer the ‘old hametz’ out of context to apply to those of us who are being called out to return to Torah observance in the way Yeshua and His disciples did?”

Well first of all, I had cited those verses above, because you had utilized them within your previous response to me, to be supportive to observing “the feasts”, in your post of June 13th. @ 4:43pm.
Quote;
“Feasts: Mat 26:17-19; Mark 14:12, 14, 16; Luke 2:41; 22:8; 11, 13, 15; John 7:2, 8, 10, 37; “1 CO 5:7-8”, 16:8; Acts 2:1-3, 20:6, 16. As it will continue to happen, Isa 66, Zac 14 (hope this is sufficient specificity).”

I had cited them in my response by saying, “And as well, how you have completely misinterpreted the meaning of 1 Corinthians 5;7,8., with the hopes that it is somehow supportive to that which you believe, (which explains a lot actually). “

DJ, yes, thank you, Enoc is a prime example of both faith and obedience as was Abraham. I’ve read both the book of Enoc and Jubilees were their lives are depicted in greater detail. Both these men were men of faith who followed Yah’s teachings precisely because of their faith. It is like the 12 spies Moses sent to the promise land, ten were of little faith and disobeyed because of fear of the giants causing Israel to do likewise and their own demise. Whereas on the other hand, Caleb and Y’hoshua were men of faith who were also obedient to Yah.

Well personally, (not that I am offended by the above), I would think that there is a significant difference between judging others and in quoting Scripture, and perhaps expounding on its meaning and what it says?

Though what proceeds what is written within Titus 3:9-11 2., is relevant to all of this, especially that of Titus 1:10-16., I will take Paul’s advice .

“But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. “A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject”; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.”

I’ll leave you with this for your consideration, because 1 Corinthians 5:7,8. is commonly referred to by those that utilize it to be supportive to keeping or observing the Feasts. Which within the context of those verses, is simply misinterpreting those verses.

The context would be understood by the previous text.

1 Corinthians 5:1-6. in the easily understood NIV.

1- It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife.

2- And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this?

3- For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this.

4- So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present,

5- hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

6- Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough?

Now the subject “of this sexual immorality” is still being discussed by Paul, therefore he say’s;

7- “Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.”

(By the above, (verse 7), Paul is saying, “Get rid of the old sin, so you can be new and clean, as you really are. Because Yeshua, (OUR, (those that believe in Yeshua as being our Savior), PASSOVER LAMB, (as opposed to the very first Passover of Moses and Israel), has been sacrificed already!)

8- “Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.”

(Hence, what Paul is saying here in verse 8 is, Therefore, let us observe and keep that “SACRIFICE” in mind, by NOT continuing to be sinful with malice and wickedness, but cleanly in sincerity and truth.)

It has nothing to do with “keeping the Feast of Passover”, and far more to do with “Romans 6:1-7. and Hebrews 6:4-8.”.

Gregg you made some points that I have to address separately. Firstly you stated: “… and returned to facilitate Yeshua’s laws that He had revealed to Paul to facilitate.”

“What both Don and I are saying is that You and others are placing all of your trust in what Moses was commissioned to do, and discarding any further and new INSTRUCTION from that same YESHUA.”

Yeshua’s ‘laws’ are His Father’s instructions, there is no difference; He and the Father are one. Yeshua said and did as He saw Father saying and doing. Yeshua gave those same instructions to Moses for His people Israel, His bride, and He lived faithfully by them to the point of defending them as He did with those Pharisees from the school of Shamai that had turned Yah’s teaching into legalisms that destroyed the spirit or intent of Torah. The trust has nothing to do with Moses; he was a messenger, very faithful at that. The centrality should not be Moses but the one that gave Moses the instructions to begin with, Yeshua. Rabbi Shaul declared that he himself believed in ALL that is written in the Torah and Prophets and I don’t think that he was talking about some other Torah beside the one the disciples used to preach the good news of Messiah, primarily to the lost sheep of Israel. He declared himself to be, present tense, a Jew, a Pharisee among Pharisees, Acts 22:3, 23:6, 24:14, Philippians 3:5. In other words, he was a practicing Jew and proud of it. That never stopped him from having faith galore in the author and finisher of our faith. Faith is what Abraham had when, by faith and faith alone, he FOLLOWED TORAH, Gen 26:5. It takes faith to cross over and leave the world behind you. That is what is expected from each one of us, active faith.

Secondly you stated: “the Church, (or Assembly of Yeshua’s), had not been formed and no Gentiles had been accepted as children of God at that time.

However, after the Gentiles, (Cornelius and his household), did receive the gift and blessings of the Holy Spirit, Paul was then CHOSEN, because God had His People scattered all over the earth.”

Yes, it all started with Israelites and in fact continued as it does today with scattered Israelites but from the start Gentiles were expected to learn the same Torah they all followed going to the synagogue every Sabbath, not at a church on Sunday, Acts 15:21. Many of the people Rabbi Shaul ministered to were in effect Israelites that had during the Diaspora lost their identity. The changes amongst Messiah’s followers were made later by the so called ‘church fathers’ (of Babylonian distortions). While they lived the disciples as well as Yeshua Himself, followed Torah in the manner Yeshua showed them and this did not diminish their faith a bit, on the contrary, it strengthened it.

Dear Bro. Gregg – I agree wholly on what you said last post above. But their is so many different doctrines today. It’s hard to pull away from all the people at times. As for myself it was a emptying out for sure to receive the truth for this day and hour. I’m glad the Lord had patience with me to learn and study the scriptures. He had to give me the desire. Or I would not have. Same with you and others.

No matter what the Greek, Hebrew, Latin or Arabic says. Salvation is a mystery according to Paul. Col. 1:26-27 – Their are Hebrew, Greek, and Latin and Arabic scholars in the “ages gone by” that were all learned men. And yet saw things different and had great controversies of the word meanings.

That’s why I have always maintained . That the “Holy Spirit” guide will teach us to keep reading and the “Word will Reveal the Word”. It takes Revelation not just the printed word. The Word is sharper than a two edged sword dividing asunder even the morrow from the bone. That’s close. A Great Prophet said in our day. Its like spiting hairs when it come to doctrine’s. I believe it. Many cannot pursue it to the end. But some will. Yea and temper’s will rise. But we must keep going on. Brothers that will eat the word are very needed at this hour. You to me was a breath of fresh air. As others on here are as well.

Yes Gregg, I misspoke concerning 1Co5:6-7 because although Rav Shaul does literally write “let us keep the Pesach” he is saying it within the context of people fellowshipping (including for Pesach) with those who show outward manifestations of hametz or sin such as sexual immorality. Nonetheless, my overall point was and still is that Yeshua and His disciples continued to observe the weekly Sabbath set apart and blessed by Yah on the 7th day of creation, and the yearly moedim or sacred rehearsal appointed times (feasts) of Yah. These have not changed nor will they change while this earth and heaven exists, Mat 5:17-19. All Yeshua did was to give His Torah, its complete or full meaning. I realize that you and others want to believe He fulfilled them ‘doing away with Torah’ but that is not what scripture says.

History clearly teaches that it was Rome who persecuted Jews, both believers and non-believers alike, for observing Yah’s Sabbaths and set apart days. It also teaches that due to a combination of factors the new Gentile leaders began to separate themselves from anything that might have appeared as “Jewish” to Roman eyes in order to avoid persecution, and that finally Roman Emperors such as Constantine made laws making the changes of days and celebrations official, even under penalty of death. There are even various Roman Church prelates that over the years admit that it was them that made the change from Saturday to Sunday.

I rest assured that the day will come when Messiah returns all will definitely know and quite possibly before it, that many within the body of true Christian believers will realize that they have been mislead and inherited falsehoods from their ancestors as it is written in Jer 16:19. For a fact I know from personal experience that Yah is calling out His people Israel and Yahudah to embrace both His Torah as it was meant to be followed from the beginning, and His living Torah; Yeshua Ha Mashiach. Shalom

I used to utilize quite a lot of Hebrew transliteration myself at one time, until I realized that it wasn’t edifying in the least to those that didn’t know what I was talking about, and that it didn’t impress anyone at all either.

However, do what you wish to do, and believe what you wish to believe.

If I am Judged by both the Father and Son as being wrong in placing and exalting Yeshua above all things, while living as best as I can with Them both knowing my heart.

Then so be it.

I would much rather be judged wrongly, by believing that I am complete in Him.
Than to be judged wrongly by believing I’m not.

Yeshua will always be my Everything.
And I will live in Faith regarding that.

“Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, because it is written, ‘Be holy, for I am holy'” (1st Peter 1:13-16, NKJV).

We are to be as “obedient children”…be holy in all our conduct.”

Peter is referencing – THE LAW (teachings, ordenances, statutes) with a direct quotations from Leviticus:

“I am the Lord who brought you out of Egypt to be your God; you must be holy because I am holy” (Levitcus 11:45).

“‘I will be [L set my face] against anyone who goes [turns] to mediums and fortune-tellers [wizards] for advice, because that person is being unfaithful to [L prostituting himself against] me. So I will cut him off from his people.

Yes, the deception that covers Ephraim (in part the Christian Church), is firmly in place. It is every bit as debilitating as Yahudah not being able to recognize Messiah the Lamb. But even more than that, look at Gregg’s last post. All of that sounds nice and holy and full of selflessness. But it is exactly the opposite. What is basically being said, after you clear away the fluff is, he will not yield to the Instructions of Messiah,even if all of this is true and he is found guilty in the end (that is easy to say now). The deception is that complete. The truth is, he would cry like a baby at the point, but unfortunately there is nothing anyone can do about it. Only he can change that.

What he doesn’t understand is that Yahshua is also Messiah the Word. In 1313 BCE, on Shavuot at Sinai, Messiah gave the Ketubah-marriage contract-torah to His people, when they were betrothed to Him.

James 4

12 There is but one Giver of Torah; he is also the Judge, with the power to deliver and to destroy.

So, when it is said ” by believing I am complete in Him” and also “Yeshua will always be my Everything,” it is Gregg’s understanding that is not complete. He categorically denies this aspect of Messiah as if it doesn’t even exist, or at the least is distasteful to him.

The Orthodox Jews and the Christian Church both treat Messiah as a buffet, where they can pick and choose what they want to accept and leave the rest that puts a bad taste in their mouth. We were never given that option, if we are to be in Him. But, Messiah in these last days will open the eyes of those who are willing, both Jew and Gentile, to the fullness and oneness of His salvation through Messiah the Lamb and the Word. They are both ECHAD in Him.

If you are reading this Gregg, even though the back and forth may get a little intense at times, we are all brothers and sisters here. May Yahshua bring us all to completeness and oneness in Him, through the “fullness” of His total Salvation!

I’m going to pass on any comments made by Gregg. I’m looking at a bigger concern – Gregg is beloved.

I ain’t prefect, but man – I got’a tell you, when I said to a Pastor in 2010 that I needed to find “The Spirit” because it was not being taught in that church (a church that is associated with the seminary I attended in the 80’s) – I had no idea what was moving me out and what I would find.

I still have not found the Spirit of Truth active in any evangelical church. Period.

This summarizes what I’m experiencing in today’s churches – please read through this short essay to the end.

I don’t write the following, but I agree with the message: “Ichabod has become a reality among us.”

Question: “What does the term ‘Ichabod’ mean in the Bible?”

Answer:

The word Ichabod means literally “inglorious” or “there is no glory,” and in her pain and despair, the woman (who is unnamed in Scripture) lamented over the loss of the glory of God from Israel, [which would include Ephraim and May reference the lamp-stand removed from the church of Ephesus, Rev. 2:5).

“And she named the child Ichabod, saying, ‘The glory has departed from Israel!’ because the ark of God had been captured and because of her father-in-law and her husband. And she said, ‘The glory has departed from Israel, for the ark of God has been captured’” (1 Samuel 4:21–22).

The glory of God is used to describe God’s favor and blessings toward His people.

In the Old Testament, God’s glory is seen as a pillar of fire and cloud that followed the Israelites during the exodus from Egypt, guiding and guarding them (Exodus 13:21).

Once the Ark of the Covenant was built and placed in the tabernacle in the wilderness, and later in the temple in Jerusalem, God’s glory resided there as a symbol of His presence among His people. When the Ark was captured by the Philistines, the glory departed from the Israelites—Ichabod became a reality.

Jesus later refers to the concept of the glory of God leaving Israel. In His last message to the populace of Israel, His final word to the religious leaders was “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

Look, your house is left to you desolate” (Matthew 23:37–38). That was His final statement of judgment on Israel for the rejection of their Messiah. He has indicted their leaders and, by indicting the leaders, indicted all the people who followed the leaders. And now He says their house is left desolate—Ichabod, the glory is departing.

Notice that He says your house is desolate. Not My house, not My Father’s house, as He used to call it.

The Greek word translated “desolate,” means “abandoned to ruin.” This place is in abandonment.

God has left. It’s cursed, devoted to ruination. And they won’t see Jesus again till He comes in full Messianic glory (Matthew 23:39).

It is a terrible thing to experience the loss of the glory of God. And while Israel’s ruin was temporary “until the fullness of the Gentiles” would be brought into the kingdom of God on earth (Romans 11:25), one wonders how many churches today have lost the glory of the Lord, whether willingly or unknowingly.

The same things that caused Ichabod in Israel—sin, disobedience, idolatry—are present in many of today’s churches [Ephraim !].

Christians must never take the glory of God in our midst for granted, lest we wake up one day and find that Ichabod has become a reality among us.

I’m going to pass on any comments made by Gregg. I’m looking at a bigger concern – Gregg is beloved.

I ain’t prefect, but man – I got’a tell you, when I said to a Pastor in 2010 that I needed to find “The Spirit” because it was not being taught in that church (a church that is associated with the seminary I attended in the 80’s) – I had no idea what was moving me out and what I would find.

I still have not found the Spirit of Truth active in any evangelical church. Period.

Within Believers, yes. However, the fullness of the Spirit (“glory”) is not within any denominational church or “non-denominational” church.

This summarizes what I’m experiencing in today’s church – please read through this short essay to the end.

I don’t write the following, but I agree with the message: “Ichabod has become a reality among us.”

Question: “What does the term ‘Ichabod’ mean in the Bible?”

Answer:

“The word Ichabod means literally “inglorious” or “there is no glory,” and in her pain and despair, the woman (who is unnamed in Scripture) lamented over the loss of the glory of God from Israel, [which would include Ephraim and May reference the lamp-stand removed from the church of Ephesus, Rev. 2:5).

“And she named the child Ichabod, saying, ‘The glory has departed from Israel!’ because the ark of God had been captured and because of her father-in-law and her husband. And she said, ‘The glory has departed from Israel, for the ark of God has been captured’” (1 Samuel 4:21–22).

The glory of God is used to describe God’s favor and blessings toward His people.

In the Old Testament, God’s glory is seen as a pillar of fire and cloud that followed the Israelites during the exodus from Egypt, guiding and guarding them (Exodus 13:21).

Once the Ark of the Covenant was built and placed in the tabernacle in the wilderness, and later in the temple in Jerusalem, God’s glory resided there as a symbol of His presence among His people…

Jesus later refers to the concept of the glory of God leaving Israel. In His last message to the populace of Israel, His final word to the religious leaders was “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. Look, your house is left to you desolate” (Matthew 23:37–38).

That was His final statement of judgment on Israel for the rejection of their Messiah. He has indicted their leaders and, by indicting the leaders, indicted all the people who followed the leaders. And now He says their house is left desolate—Ichabod, the glory is departing.

Notice that He says your house is desolate. Not My house, not My Father’s house, as He used to call it.

The Greek word translated “desolate,” means “abandoned to ruin.” This place is in abandonment.

God has left…And they won’t see Jesus again till He comes in full Messianic glory (Matthew 23:39).

It is a terrible thing to experience the loss of the glory of God. And while Israel’s ruin was temporary “until the fullness of the Gentiles” would be brought into the kingdom of God on earth (Romans 11:25), one wonders how many churches today have lost the glory of the Lord, whether willingly or unknowingly.

The same things that caused Ichabod in Israel—sin, disobedience, idolatry—are present in many of today’s churches [Ephraim !].

Christians must never take the glory of God in our midst for granted, lest we wake up one day and find that Ichabod has become a reality among us.”

I should have opted out commenting on Gregg’s post, but I didn’t. I regret the exchange ever took place. I believe that I am coming to understand, at least in a small way, how far the Word can be twisted to make it conform to modern Christian doctrine, which has to conform to only the misunderstood writings of Paul. It seems that every other scripture, by any other writer has to conform to Paul’s writings or be seen as useless as yesterdays newspaper. You can’t fight that. I always thought the blindness of the Jews was a whole lot worse. I am not so sure anymore.

I am enjoying reading your posts. After this past week, the need to write that piece I am working on is more needful than ever. Everything that has happened since the first Passover in Egypt, has been choreographed, if you will, by Yah. As the years passed in the cycle of the feasts, the fulfillments of the feasts have come and are coming. The rehearsals (moedim) are one thing. But as the cycle repeats year after year, when the fulfillment of each feast comes in it’s time, power is released in the kingdom and on this earth. When we begin to understand that the fulfillment of each feast is linked and tied to the former feast that have been fulfilled previously, and so on, we begin to understand the importance of those things that have already been fulfilled and those things that are yet to come. It is all part of Yah’s 7000 year plan for His people. That is the broad overview of what is going to be written. It is the incredible details that ties it all together.

There are subtleties within the Word, even within the Gospel’s that are spoken by Yeshua regarding the Law.

John 15:25., for one example,;
“But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.”

Why wouldn’t Yeshua have stated “MY” Law?

The Greek word for “their” within this verse is “αὐτῶν ”, transliterated as, “autos” and this pronoun is translated correctly.

There are numerous Greek words that could have been utilized to express that this was Yeshua’s law, by associating the law with “My”.

Paul says in Titus 2:13-15., while explaining to Titus the responsibilities he has in establishing the Church in Crete;

“Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the GREAT GOD AND OUR SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST;
Who GAVE HIMSELF FOR US, that HE MIGHT “REDEEM” us from “ALL INIQUITY”, and “PURIFY UNTO HIMSELF” a “PECULIAR PEOPLE”, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”

In my opinion, this “PECULIAR PEOPLE”, is directly associated to 2 Corinthians 5:15-17.;

“And THAT HE DIED FOR ALL, that they which live SHOULD NOT HENCEFORTH LIVE UNTO THEMSELVES, BUT UNTO HIM WHICH DIED FOR THEM, AND ROSE AGAIN.
Wherefore HENCEFORTH KNOW WE NO MAN AFTER THE FLESH: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now HENCEFORTH KNOW WE HIM NO MORE. Therefore IF ANY MAN BE “IN” CHRIST, he is a “NEW CREATURE”: OLD THINGS ARE PASSED AWAY; BEHOLD ALL THINGS ARE BECOME NEW.”

And

Galatians 6:12-16.;

“As MANY AS DESIRE TO MAKE A FAIR SHEW IN THE FLESH, THEY CONSTRAIN YOU TO BE CIRCUMCISED; only lest THEY should SUFFER PERSECUTION for the CROSS OF CHRIST.
For NEITHER THEY THEMSELVES WHO ARE CIRCUMCISED KEEP THE LAW; BUT DESIRE TO HAVE YOU CIRCUMCISED, THAT THEY MAY GLORY IN YOUR FLESH.
BUT GOD FORBID THAT I SHOULD GLORY, SAVE IN THE CROSS OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, BY WHOM THE WORLD IS CRUCIFIED ONTO ME, AND I UNTO THE WORLD.
FOR “IN” CHRIST JESUS NEITHER CIRCUMCISION AVAILETH ANY THING, NOR UNCIRCUMCISION, BUT A “NEW CREATURE.
AND AS MANY AS WALK ACCORDING TO THIS RULE, PEACE BE ON THEM, AND MERCY, AND UPON THE ISRAEL OF GOD.”

The “PECULIAR PEOPLE” of Titus 2:14., is obviously referring to the “NEW CREATURE” within 2 Corinthians 2:17., and Galatians 6:15.

The above appears to be fairly clear to me, especially when one understands that the word “circumcision” represents that of the Mosaic Law, and not simply that of a “nip and tuck”.

And that “flesh” symbolically represents “the futile efforts of man”.

And that the, “GOD FORBID THAT I SHOULD GLORY, SAVE IN THE CROSS OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST”, is simply stating that Paul or “we” should have “NO” confidence in anything other than that, GLORY that is in the CROSS of LORD JESUS CHRIST.

And as well, that this “NEW CREATURE or CREATION” that Yeshua’s death on that Cross created, is now considered to be “ISRAEL OF GOD”.

Which again would be confirmed by 1 Peter 2:4-10., and especially that of verse 10.

You yourselves may choose to dawn your Tallit, Tefillin and Tzitzit and follow the ways of the Jews, and that is your prerogative.
However I personally, choose to remain within that “New Creation” that Yeshua died to create. One consisting of both Jew and Gentile.

And though what I have to say regarding that for me, Yeshua is my Everything”, may sound “full of fluff, nice, holy and full of selflessness” we will have to wait and see as to “who will cry like a baby” in the end.

In my opinion, what I believe that many of you fail to understand is that, like the Mishkan or Tabernacle was a “copy or shadow” of the Heavenly one in that is was worldly, the same applies regarding the Mosaic Law, as being a “copy and shadow” of the Spiritual one.

Yeshua is my Everything.
The Just Shall Live by Faith in Yeshua.

P.S.
Marianne, could you please delete comment 308502 above addressed to David/dru.
It has served its purpose.
Thank You.

Law vs. Grace
Paul said of Salvation and receiving of the Spirit.
Gal. 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the “revelation of Jesus Christ“.
Gal. 2:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me ““is not after man“”.

Col. 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col. 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
“Christ Overcome the Flesh man. By the Spirit. Birthing us into liberty =freedom.

“Circumcision and Uncirumcision” Law vs. Faith
Gal. 2:6-9 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man’s person:) for they who seemed to be “”somewhat in conference added nothing to me: “”
7. But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8. – (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)
9. – And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. Israel and Gentiles

Gal. 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
Gal. 2:13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
Gal. 2:14- But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, “”If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles,”” and “”not as do the Jews“”, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? = Very good question Apostle Paul
Gal 2:15- We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
Gal. 2:16 – Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: “””for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. “”
Gal. 2:17 “But” if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore “”Christ the minister of sin?”” God forbid.
GAL2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
GAL 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
GAL. 2:20- I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
GAL 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for “”if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain“”. Law was a shadow tutor.

Law vs. Grace
Paul said of Salvation and receiving of the Spirit.
Gal. 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the “revelation of Jesus Christ“.
Gal. 2:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me ““is not after man“”.

Col. 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col. 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
“Christ Overcome the Flesh man. By the Spirit. Birthing us into liberty =freedom.

“Circumcision and Uncirumcision” Law vs. Faith
Gal. 2:6-9 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man’s person:) for they who seemed to be “”somewhat in conference added nothing to me: “”
7. But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8. – (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)
9. – And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. Israel and Gentiles

Gal. 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
Gal. 2:13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
Gal. 2:14- But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, “”If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles,”” and “”not as do the Jews“”, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? = Very good question Apostle Paul
Gal 2:15- We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
Gal. 2:16 – Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: “””for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. “”
Gal. 2:17 “But” if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore “”Christ the minister of sin?”” God forbid.
GAL2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
GAL 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
GAL. 2:20- I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
GAL 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for “”if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain“”. Law was a shadow tutor.

GAL. 3:1- ¶ O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
GAL. 3:2 This only would I learn of you, “”Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?””
GAL. 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
GAL. 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
Gal. 3:5. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Paul was “Afraid of these kind of people” still desiring to be under the law.

Gal. 4:9-11 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
10. “Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.”
11. “”I am afraid of you,”” lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.
Did Not Jesus tell the Jews – ye worship God in vain. By your traditions.

Gal. 4:22- 27 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
4:24- Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

Bottom line – For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to “”Jerusalem which now is“”, and is in bondage with her children.
Peter and Disciples preached to Agar. As Cain was taught of God yet had no heart to serve God.
Do you actually believe that anyone got saved and filled with the Spirit after the Resurrection of Christ by obeying the law. The law could not save them to begin with. It was always GRACE by FAITH even in the LAW.

In 70 AD. The Jerusalem which was in Christs and Paul’s day. Was completely destroyed along with the Law and the Temple. And even before that. Pentecost came about a generation before that.

Israel got to worshiping the Temple over God. It became an Idol to Israel.
How did it become a Idol. That is where they met God at. In a stone temple. It became their downfall. Their traditions destroyed them. They could not change their thinking to Gods will. And New Creation Message that went beyond Moses day. NEW WINE. Man cannot change you Only the Spirit.

PS –The Eighth Day – is when Jesus rose from the dead. = 8 means “NEW Beginning.”
Jh. 20:1 The “”first day of the week” cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
Jh. 20: 19 Then the same day at evening, “”being the first day”” of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Acts, 20:7 ¶ And upon the “”first day of the week“”, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

Notice the disciples were all afraid and full of fear and did not understand what had happened yet.
But on the 8th. Day – a New Beginning started. For all believers. The Old Passed away. Forever.

Submitted on 2014/06/16 at 11:38 pm
Law vs. Grace
Paul said of Salvation and receiving of the Spirit.
Gal. 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the “revelation of Jesus Christ“.
Gal. 2:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me ““is not after man“”.

Col. 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col. 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
“Christ Overcome the Flesh man. By the Spirit. Birthing us into liberty =freedom.

“Circumcision and Uncirumcision” Law vs. Faith
Gal. 2:6-9 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man’s person:) for they who seemed to be “”somewhat in conference added nothing to me: “”
7. But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8. – (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)
9. – And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. Israel and Gentiles

Gal. 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
Gal. 2:13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
Gal. 2:14- But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, “”If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles,”” and “”not as do the Jews“”, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? = Very good question Apostle Paul
Gal 2:15- We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
Gal. 2:16 – Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: “””for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. “”
Gal. 2:17 “But” if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore “”Christ the minister of sin?”” God forbid.
GAL2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
GAL 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
GAL. 2:20- I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
GAL 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for “”if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain“”. Law was a shadow tutor.

GAL. 3:1- ¶ O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
GAL. 3:2 This only would I learn of you, “”Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?””
GAL. 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
GAL. 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
Gal. 3:5. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Paul was “Afraid of these kind of people” still desiring to be under the law.

Gal. 4:9-11 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
10. “Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.”
11. “”I am afraid of you,”” lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.
Did Not Jesus tell the Jews – ye worship God in vain. By your traditions.

Gal. 4:22- 27 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
4:24- Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

Bottom line – For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to “”Jerusalem which now is“”, and is in bondage with her children.
Peter and Disciples preached to Agar. As Cain was taught of God yet had no heart to serve God.
Do you actually believe that anyone got saved and filled with the Spirit after the Resurrection of Christ by obeying the law. The law could not save them to begin with. It was always GRACE by FAITH even in the LAW.

In 70 AD. The Jerusalem which was in Christs and Paul’s day. Was completely destroyed along with the Law and the Temple. And even before that. Pentecost came about a generation before that.

Israel got to worshiping the Temple over God. It became an Idol to Israel.
How did it become a Idol. That is where they met God at. In a stone temple. It became their downfall. Their traditions destroyed them. They could not change their thinking to Gods will. And New Creation Message that went beyond Moses day. NEW WINE. Man cannot change you Only the Spirit.

PS –The Eighth Day – is when Jesus rose from the dead. = 8 means “NEW Beginning.”
Jh. 20:1 The “”first day of the week” cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
Jh. 20: 19 Then the same day at evening, “”being the first day”” of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Acts, 20:7 ¶ And upon the “”first day of the week“”, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

Notice the disciples were all afraid and full of fear and did not understand what had happened yet.
But on the 8th. Day – a New Beginning started. For all believers. The Old Passed away. Forever.

There are some confusing scriptures when seen through Greek eyes such as Col 2, when followers, having begun to observe Yah’s Sabbaths and set apart sacred rehearsal times, are criticized by others who judged them for precisely observing Yah’s special days just as Yeshua and His disciples did. This has been misinterpreted to mean exactly the opposite of what happened if seen through Hebrew eyes. Remember there was Gnosticism, angel worship and a lot of basically pagan man made practices masquerading as coming from the Creator, some still engage in them.

Col 2:14-22
14 “He wiped away the bill of charges against us. Because of the regulations, it stood as a testimony against us; but he removed it by nailing it to the execution-stake. 15 Stripping the rulers and authorities of their power, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by means of the stake.
16 So don’t let anyone pass judgment on you in connection with eating and drinking, or in regard to a Jewish festival or Rosh-Hodesh or Shabbat. 17 These are a shadow of things that are coming, but the body is of the Messiah.
18 Don’t let anyone deny you the prize by insisting that you engage in self-mortification or angel-worship. Such people are always going on about some vision they have had, and they vainly puff themselves up by their worldly outlook. 19 They fail to hold to the Head, from whom the whole Body, receiving supply and being held together by its joints and ligaments, grows as God makes it grow. 20 If, along with the Messiah, you died to the elemental spirits of the world, then why, as if you still belonged to the world, are you letting yourselves be bothered by its rules? — 21 “Don’t touch this!” “Don’t eat that!” “Don’t handle the other!” 22 Such prohibitions are concerned with things meant to perish by being used [not by being avoided!], and they are based on man-made rules and teachings.”

“”Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.”

The Scripture above means that Jesus came to fulfill, to complete, that is, to satisfy the righteous requirements of all that was contained in the Law of Moses and that on all believer’s behalf. He did not come to perpetuate the Law of Moses, that is, he did not come for the purpose of keeping it going, but he came to satisfy the requirements of the Law of Moses which we were and are unable to keep.

““The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,”

Then Scripture says:

“By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.”

Shofar, do you understand the concept of “New Covenant?” It means that it is a completely different covenant than the first, not an extension of the first one, not the old covenant mixed with the new, but a completely different covenant. Do you understand the meaning of the word “Obsolete?” According to Strong’s, the word “Gerasko” means to grow old, followed by the word “aphanismos” meaning to disappear, vanish. Run together they mean, growing old and about ready to vanish.

Notice in the verse above that God says that this new covenant will not be like the one that he made with their ancestors. This covenant is different from the Law of Moses, the written code with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. It’s been done away with!

“But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. (Written code = Law of Moses)

You quoted:
“Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

By your posting of the Scripture above, you obviously do not understand what it is saying, else you wouldn’t have posted it and that because it does not support your position, so here is the meaning:

Under the old covenant, the Law of Moses, specifically the food law, it was not lawful for Jews to eat the foods that God had deemed as unclean. However, under the new covenant, God deemed that no food is unclean and everything to be received with thanksgiving. When Paul says, “do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink,” he is referring to those who would still be hanging on to the old covenant of the Law and if they saw a Christian Jew eating things that were previously not lawful to eat under the Law of Moses, then they would be apt to rebuke you for doing so. But we are free in Christ and those things are now obsolete. For as Paul stated:

“I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself.”

Same goes with someone passing judgment regarding to the mandatory feasts of the law. The meaning is, If a Christian Jew was/is not keeping the mandatory feasts of the law, then those who cling to the first covenant would be apt to rebuke you for not keeping it and the same for Sabbath days and other Holy days. The people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

Please don’t bring up the moral law anyone, because I’m not speaking about that! That should be a natural desire having the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and our desire to walk as Christ walked. I’m speaking about a long list of things that must be observed (works) in order to obtain salvation. But with those who are free in Christ, we have faith that he fulfilled all things on our behalf, being perfectly completed and satisfying the Father’s requirements, we are now free from the law, because Christ freed us from it by meeting its requirements.

“You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”

i agree. the old laws and ordences were done away with when christ came and died on the cross. with the exception of the ten commandments. even then you will find the passage in the new testiment where the man asked jesus which commandments. you will note jesus only used two of the ten.

Dmcal when Yeshua, as a Jewish Rabbi, said “I came to fulfill Torah”, He was speaking as a Jewish Rabbi who personally handed Torah to His servant Moses at Mount Sinai, who as The Word during creation set aside and blessed the 7th day (Gen 2), who saw firsthand from the Father HOW to keep Torah, who had the custom to observe His holy Sabbath (Luke 4:16, also 4:31, 6:6, 13:10; Mar 1:21, 6:2) and His feasts (Mat 26:17-19; Mark 14:12, 14, 16; Luke 2:41; 22:8; 11, 13, 15; John 7:2, 10) and will continue to do so during the millennium (Isa 66; Zac 14). This Rabbi who had confrontations with other rabbis over HOW to observe Torah could not have possibly done away with something that He spoke into existence and defended so much in His interactions with others. He kept the part of Torah that a Jewish male would keep (not the whole Torah because much of Torah did not apply to Him) to exemplify the CORRECT way to observe Torah, not from a distorted, legalistic point of view as it is often kept, even to this day, but from Yah’s point of view which has been based in love since the start, Lev 19. He was in effect, as were His disciples after Him, a keeper of The Way, the same Way the prophets spoke about and that Abraham kept (Gen 26:5). Torah is the same because the Word does not change. It is being written in the hearts and minds of His bride, Israel and Judah, Heb 8:6-12; Jer 31:31-34. It’s impossible that something ‘done away with’ as “churchianity” claims could be written in the hearts of those He chose. When Yeshua argued in Mat 5:17-19, He did so as a Rabbi assuring others that He did not come to give Torah an incorrect interpretation (thus “doing away with it or destroying it”) but rather to expound on Torah and fulfill it. Not fulfill in the Greek minded ‘to do away’, but to actually make full, to cause Torah to abound. Notice on the same discussion He also stated at that time that not a yod will disappear from Torah while this earth and heavens exists. We are still here so He was obviously not talking about doing away with Torah. What was done away was not Torah but the liens against us, not Yah’s holy Torah that time and again He chastises His children Israel for breaking. Torah like Yeshua is eternal simply because Yeshua is the living word or Torah.

Torah remains the same because Yah is the same today and forever, He does not change, neither do the teachings He made in the first place for the bride of Messiah. Notice please these teachings are for the bride, not necessarily the guests at the wedding. Although He wishes all would form part of the bride, not all will, some will be guests. As Mat 5 indicates, there would be those called the least IN the kingdom; the ones that teach not to follow Torah. They are still in the kingdom by virtue of accepting Yeshua’s sacrifice- the invitation to the wedding- but they will be called “the least” because they refused to follow Yah’s holly Torah and taught others to do the same. These are the guests who stand in front of the altar waving palm fronds in Rev but who won’t be allowed to go inside the Holly of hollies were only the groom and bride can enter. This whole thing is patterned after an ancient Jewish wedding with the groom’s coming announced by his attendants and the groom and bride secluding themselves inside the wedding chamber. The ceremony of Passover is all tied up with the wedding of the lamb but that is another theme as its long to expose it.

When a Jew tells you that “all food is good” It is talking about FOOD fit for humans, not about what you would feed your dog, which is not really food for mean for man. When in the Apostle’s Writings Rabbi Shaul says not to be judged by what you eat he is not telling them to go ahead and eat trife or unclean animals, on the contrary, as a rabbi he is telling them to not let those who follow man’s teachings to judge you because you are being obedient and follow Torah like Yeshua and His apostles did. Again, this must be seen through Hebrew eyes in a Hebrew context and not in a Greek one. In the Tanach (“OT”) we are told in Lev 11 which animals should not be eaten by the bride of Messiah. These are the animals that Yah never intended for human consumption. Remember before the flood man was vegetarian but after the flood man was told to go ahead and eat meat but not certain type, especially pork which is mentioned again in Isa 66, comparing its consumption with the consumption of rats. Obviously before Torah was written in stone the ancients knew which type of meat were considered unclean. Enter Abel who raised sheep and presented the first of his fold to Yah. He did so being a vegetarian. Later when Noah is told to enter the animals in the arc he is told to enter a pair of each in Gen 6 but specifies in Gen 7 that of the CLEAN animals he is to have 7 pairs of each type. That is a ratio of 14 clean to 2 unclean. Why? How it is Noah knew the difference before the 10 words were given? Could it be perhaps that when Yeshua (because no man has seen the Father who is Spirit and lived) walked in the Garden with Adam He taught Adam the difference and Adam in turn passed it down? According to the books of Enoch and Jubilees that is just what happened. That is how Abraham as a young boy learned Torah, from Seth son of Noah. This is why in Gen 16:5 it is written 5 ”Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.” That last word ‘law’ in Hebrew is the same as in Jer 31;31-34 cited in Heb 8:6-212, Torah or Yah’s instructions, which is the same but written in the heart of His people so they will no longer need to be taught by anyone else because it will be an integral part of us. The renewed one is not like the one with Moses which was external and depended on man’s actions. This one is paid in full by the blood of the Son of Man, the Groom; Yeshua Ben Yosef. Same content, different testator thus renewed. The desire of man’s heart will be aligned with what should be there, Torah. If a man really has Yeshua/Torah in his heart then his fruits will show him to be a true follower of Yeshua by deed not just by lip as many are both Jew and Gentile. He will do so out of love for both Yeshua and the Father.

The notion of Yeshua doing away with His own Torah comes from the Greek minded Romans who wanted to accommodate their pagan beliefs and traditions into the new political- religious organization they created and which is in effect the mother of Christianity. Christianity has inherited another crestus; in fact it has inherited many Christos just as it was written would happen; a moldable changeable one that bends to the whims of each religious group. Surely Ephraim has disdained Torah and embraced the way of the nations forgetting his true identity in the process, albeit he is starting to remember who he really is and returning home. Not all that call Him “Lord, Lord” will inherit but those who… do the will of the Father and keep His commands till the end, Mat 7:21-23; John 14:14; 1John 2:3-4, 3:4, 5:2-3; 2 John 1:6; Rev 12:17, 14:12. Torah is not in itself the vehicle of salvation but the Constitution or way of living for those who have received salvation through Yeshua.

All that you wote above is just more Hebrew blather! Can you even answer the questions posed to you in my previous post? Such as the concept of a “New Covenant” and the meaning of the word “Obsolete? This is not about being Hebrew, for the church is made up of both Jew and Gentile (Nations, peoples, races, languages). Why are you stuck in the Hebrew zone? Did God not create all people? Does Scripture not say regarding the Gentiles,

” I will call them my people who were not my people and I will call her my loved one who was not my loved one?”

Do you not think that God wrote his word to be understood by the Gentiles whom he sent Paul to preach to? You seem to have a problem with using the transliteration of Hebrew words:

Yeshua (Hebrew), Iesous (Greek), Jesus (English) = same person

Further more, regarding the law, God’s word is clear that, no one is able to keep it. If the law was still in affect, all that you would have is not a single person able to keep it, which is why Jesus came and satisfied ts requirements perfectly, nailing it to the cross and making it obsolete.

Shofar said:

“Torah could not have possibly done away with something that He spoke into existence and defended so much in His interactions with others.”

Scripture states:

“Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

Do you understand the Scripture above? It says that the Law was our guardian until Christ came (pay attention!) that we might be justified (made righteous) by faith. Now Christ has already come and therefore as the Scripture says, the law is no longer our guardian and that because Christ has come and rescued us from the curse of the Law.

Before Christ = The Law was our guardian

After Christ = The law is no longer our guardian

Peter, in response to those Pharisees who were claiming that believers must be circumcised and made to obey the Law of Moses, said,

“Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?

Yoke = the covenant of the Law.

Or what about what Paul said to the Galatians regarding the Law of Moses:

“how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles ? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.”

Weak and miserable principles = The covenant of the Law

“How foolish can you be? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort?

Christian lives in the Spirit = faith in Christ’s finished work

Your own human effort = Observance of the Law

Shofar, I fear for you and those like you who are trusting in the covenant of the law for your salvation, not recognizing the original covenant that God made with Abraham. Our only hope for eternal life is having faith in Christ’s finished work on the cross. Anything else is attempting to enter in by ones own efforts.

Now so that is no misunderstanding, I know the Law is Holy and Righteous, but when mankind attempts to meet all its requirements it only brings wrath and that because mankind cannot and never has been able to keep it. If you break it in one place, you’ve broken the whole law.

“Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.”

i agree, the law is no longer (suppost) to be used. that is why christ came. now if someone want’s to try and live by the law?; well; good luck in keeping all the ordences and sacrifices, because if anyone looks at all of them, it is next to impossible to do. and again; that’s where grace comes in.

Yes Johnwalts777, you are right, Yeshua only pointed to two of the ten. The two that form the basis for the rest; the one having to do with loving the Father with all our heart and mind and the one having to do with loving our neighbor as ourselves. If we do these two then we would rest on Yah’s set apart days instead of the ones Rome imposed under penalty of death (and thousands of believers died as a result). We would also treat others with the same consideration that we would if they were Yeshua (Jesus) in person. Speaking of, how are you doing?

i am here, listening to the conversations. thank you for inquiring. the physical pain is less. watching what is happening to our country is very sad. we used to be so very christian as far as our goverment was, that has all changed. but we who are here on this site are very awaire that all we see happening is in the plan of god so the scriptures can be fufilled. that does not make it easier to see all of those who died in wars for freedom, would look at this country and not believe what our goverment has done. all in the name of “tolorance”. freedom of speech is being destroyed and called now; “hate speech”, homosexual’s allowed to be the same as the natural marriage that god defined for us, the same teaching and preaching in some churches, displaying an american flag is now many times considered as offensive to others, etc. etc. etc. murder of millions of the undefendless every year in the name of planned parenthood, doctors who preform this cannot call themselves christian, not a single one.///////

Johnwaltz777, thank Yah you feel better, may He continue to strengthen you.

Yes the state of our nation is very sad, so is the rest of the world. In some places you can actually feel the demonic heaviness in the air.

Most people believe what they see and hear in the media without giving it much thought or consideration. As long as they are entertained and their basic needs are met they wont complain much… sort of what happened in Rome before its fall. So if the skies get crisscrossed with strange ‘clouds’, our food and water are laden with chemicals and altered DNA, and they keep on increasing the poison injected into our bodies even via vaccinations as long as people look the other way and go along…

The decaying society on the one hand and the government encroachment on the other can act as suffocating weeds. We just need to keep on praying, studying the word and keep our eyes trained on Him.

“Surely Ephraim has disdained Torah and embraced the way of the nations forgetting his true identity in the process, albeit he is starting to remember who he really is and returning home. Not all that call Him “Lord, Lord” will inherit but those who… do the will of the Father and keep His commands till the end…”

Ah!

Ephraim, the evangelical church represented by the church of Ephesus –

“Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent” (Revelation 2:4-5,NKJV).

What is this first love?

“Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength” (Deut. 6:5).

“I will praise You, O Lord, with my whole heart;
I will tell of all Your marvelous works.
I will be glad and rejoice in You;
I will sing praise to Your name, O Most High” (Psalm 9:1-2).

“The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul;
The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple;
The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart;
The commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes;
The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring forever;
The judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.

More to be desired are they than gold,
Yea, than much fine gold;
Sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
Moreover by them Your servant is warned,
And in keeping them there is great reward.

Who can understand his errors?
Cleanse me from secret faults.
Keep back Your servant also from presumptuous sins;
Let them not have dominion over me.

Then I shall be blameless,
And I shall be innocent of great transgression.

As I have said before, regarding Ephraim as being “symbolic” and being the Assembly of Yeshua’s or not?
Though I would agree that many of the characteristics that are described within Isaiah 28 regarding Ephraim, could also describe the same characteristics demonstrated by those of the Assembly of Laodicea, (and as well, of those that didn’t overcome within the seven epistles of Revelation so therefore fell within the category of Laodicea), I don’t believe it is representing the Assembly for the following reasons.

“EPHRAIM” in this context, ISN’T MENTIONED ONCE WITHIN NEW COVENANT TEXT!

“Ephraim itself, is only mentioned once in John 11:54., and is only referred to “one other time” in Acts 7:16., where “Sychem” (which is a city within Ephraim) is mentioned.” Ephraim is not mentioned once, by any Apostle or in any epistle after that.

So if you are claiming that Ephraim “IS THE” Church, (rather than simply being Ephraim), then I would consider the warning stated by Paul within Galatians 1:6-9., because you just may perhaps be preaching a different Gospel.

Therefore since from Genesis 3:15., all of the Torah, Prophets and Writings “point to Yeshua” and that of His Assembly, and that Ephraim isn’t once associated or even implied within any New Covenant Scripture as being that Church, then I believe it is safe to conclude that it isn’t.

Ephraim could very well be a “foreshadowing or type” of the Church, (especially if one was to take into consideration both Isaiah 46:9,10., and Ecclesiastes 1:9.), but Ephraim is Ephraim, and the Assembly or Church is the Assembly or Church!

Now here is something that I would like for you to please take into consideration, though you are truly seeking God within your heart, (and you know that I don’t deny that you are for one second), is it possible that in buying into this different Gospel, you have deviated from the truth?
Which if possible, has sent you down the wrong path regarding what appears to be your theology, rather than what is written within Gods Word?

Because I can guarantee you with 100 % certainty, (by what is recorded within Gods word), that neither the “Sign in the Heavens” of Revelation chapter 12 has NOT occurred, or that any of the Seals in Revelation 6:1-8:6. have yet to be opened.
Yet you believe that all are under way?

I would be more than willing to provide you with a 23 page study that I have just completed, (where I had revamped my previous study regarding the parable of the Ten Virgins, the Wise and the Foolish), and have shown as to how it “correlates exactly” with another “Very Significant” portion of Biblical text, which explains why I believe the above.

However, I suspect that you wouldn’t necessarily comprehend its content?
Yet if you are willing, (Proverbs 18:13.), contact Marianne, ask her to please email me, and she can facilitate the transferring of the file.

That is fine, I’ll accept your lack of response as a “No Thanks” and I’ll respect your decision….
(With God knowing my heart I can’t deny that I felt a little like “Jonah being sent to Nineveh” anyway.)
However, I am now clear of conscience. (Ezekiel 33:1-11.).

There is a verse of Scripture that many don’t appear to realize has duplicity of purpose.
It is Job 1:21.;

“And said, NAKED came I out of my mother’s womb, and NAKED shall I return thither: THE LORD GAVE, AND THE LORD HATH TAKEN AWAY; blessed be the name of the LORD.”

This would be applicable to all things that we have received from God, (which would also include the Holy Spirit).

Notice within Matthew 25:9,10. the “foolish” had to “buy” their “OIL”, and the Church of Laodicea in Revelation 3:18., were told to do the same (regarding their white garments) to hide their NAKEDNESS.

Notice that within Revelation 1:16., 2:12., and 2:16., that Yeshua’s states that He has a Twoedged Sword.
Isaiah refers to Yeshua and this Sword in Isaiah 49:2.;

“And he hath made MY MOUTH LIKE A SHARP SWORD; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;”

And the author of Hebrews says regarding this Sword in Hebrews 4:12.;

“For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the DIVISION of SOUL and SPIRIT, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”

I suspect that though you’ve read that verse before many times, you’ve never considered this context before?

Notice as well, that the phrase, “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.” is used last used in Revelation 3:22.

And by Peter stating what he says within 1 Peter 4:17.;
“For the time has come for “JUDGMENT TO BEGIN AT THE HOUSE OF GOD”; and if it begins with us “FIRST”, what will be the end of “THOSE WHO DO NOT OBEY THE GOSPEL” of God?”

…I would want to make darn sure, I was OBEYING THAT GOSPEL.

Which by New Covenant Scripture would consist of demonstrating the aspects described in Luke 10:25-37. the Good Samaritan, and James 2:14-26., and showing Compassion and Mercy towards others by Loving them, rather than anything remotely resembling that of eating a kosher diet.

James 1:27. says;
“Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to VISIT ORPHANS AND WIDOWS IN THEIR TROUBLE, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.”

I don’t see anything there in respects to maintaining a dietary law?
And in actuality, there is NOTHING within New Covenant text that would support the premise that it is necessary to do so whatsoever.
(There would only be that of PRE-DEATH of Yeshua, and before the New Covenant took effect.)
However, on the contrary, there is far more that states unequivocally, that it is not necessary to follow any dietary law.

Al above, in one of his posts makes an accusation and says, “The Orthodox Jews and the Christian Church both treat Messiah as a buffet, where they can “PICK AND CHOOSE” what they WANT TO ACCEPT and leave the rest that puts a BAD TASTE in THEIR mouth.”

SERIOUSLY???

Those that don’t follow the Mosaic law here don’t do so because we simply “pick and choose” what to accept or not.
It is YOU that “picks and chooses”!
We on the other hand “ACCEPT” what is written in the Word of God.

“For Christ is the END OF THE LAW for righteousness to every one that believeth.” Romans 10:4.

“Christ hath REDEEMED US FROM THE CURSE OF THE LAW, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:” Galatians 3:13.

“BLOTTING OUT the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was CONTRARY TO US, and TOOK IT OUT OF THE WAY, nailing it to his cross;” Colossians 2:14.

Etc., Etc., Etc.

You are the ones that “DON’T ACCEPT”what is written!

Theses statements above are not contradictory to what Yeshua says in Matthew 5:17., they are however SUBSTANTIATING what He says.

Hence what is recorded by Paul within 1 Timothy 4:2-4. and Titus 1:15. is to be understood and taken at face value.
Respectively below;

“Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry, and commanding to ABSTAIN FROM FOODS which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and KNOW THE TRUTH. For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; for it is sanctified BY THE WORD OF GOD and prayer.”

And….

“To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled.”

Again, You are the ones that “DON’T ACCEPT”what is written!

In referring to this Judgment of the Church that Peter speaks of in 1 Peter 4:17., Paul says in 2 Timothy 4:1.;

“I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, WHO SHALL JUDGE the quick and the dead AT HIS APPEARING and his kingdom;”

Now if you believe Gods Word, and utilize just a tad of common sense, (which I know you don’t necessarily like to do), one will logically conclude the following;

Judgement of the Church happens First.
This Judgment happens at Yeshua’s appearing.
Therefore…..
Yeshua has to appear First and Judge the Church!

What the heck do you think Revelation 2:1. through 3:19. could be then?
And there is no mention of the Mosaic Law whatsoever, included within those epistle’s.

And haven’t you ever been curious in the least as to why the Greek “συναγωγή ”, transliterated as “synagōgē” and translated as “synagogue” is utilized by Yeshua to describe those that are of satan’s congregation?

Nonetheless, because Yeshua, (as written) hasn’t appeared “FIRST” and JUDGED the Church, by SEPARATING the WISE from the FOOLISH, I can guarantee you unequivocally that the “Sign in the Heavens” of Revelation 12, or any of the Seals have been opened!
And therefore since you have been completely wrong regarding all of that, perhaps you should also question the Gospel that you are practising and preaching to others as well.

Yeshua is our Everything we are Complete in Him.
Colossians 2:10., (which would simply be another verse that you choose to disregard.)

the ten commandments are written within our hearts, i for one break one, once in a while, i do not set aside a specific day to keep it holy. but then; christians get into discussions of which day of the week is it, which does not matter at all, for god knows our heart’s. and our weaknesses. i still find it interesting that when the man asked jesus “which” about the commandments; jesus said only the first, and love thy neighbor as thyself. which means; treat those around you as best as you can, and help them where you are able.

Dmcal it is my understanding that I have more than answered your questions with my postings. What I try not do is to discredit anyone else in this forum for I was once following the same beliefs you and many in here seem to follow till Yah called me out and taught me otherwise. Since He did so out of love and compassion for me and not because of any merit of my own, I am compelled to try to do the same for others, something not always easy to do. I feel that all I can do here is point to scriptures and maybe some of the early Christian church history but unless the Ruach moves people to see them there is no point in arguing back and forth. There are millions of Jews and Gentiles that follow this same walk He has called me out to follow, albeit we don’t all agree in all of the same points. I am sure once Yeshua returns He will bring clarity to everyone. Meanwhile I stand persuaded by what Yah has taught me since it came directly by Him. This Netzarim walk I am in is not one any man persuaded me to follow; it all came from Him and Him alone. I have found others in the same path but I am in it because of Him and Him alone so I am not about to leave it and go back to my old ways. Thanks for understanding

First, you still have yet to answer those two questions and second, what good is the teaching if it is false and leads to separation from God and eternity in Hell? By your teaching, that the works of the law are required for salvation, you distort the true teaching that we are saved by grace through faith and this not of our own doing. It is the gift of God, not by our own works so that we cannot take credit for it. Taking credit for salvation is exactly what anyone is doing when they believe that they need to perform the works of the law as a requirement for salvation. This means that you would be accountable for believing and teaching this false teaching. And those other Gentiles that you mentioned who have put themselves under the law to obtain salvation, they will also be accountable and suffer the same loss.

Now again, what is the meaning by Jesus calling this a new covenant and making the first one obsolete? Do you understand the simple meaning of this? Scripture states over and over again, that we are no longer under the law. That husband has died to us and we are no longer committed to that marriage. We belong to another, Jesus Christ.

You said:
“I am sure once Yeshua returns He will bring clarity to everyone”

Yes he wil, but do you think that your false teaching will only result in a rebuke? NO! This teaching will keep a person from eternal life and that because they will have turned other people away from the truth of salvation which is by grace through faith to salvation by personal works.

“For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God’s grace.”

So ask yourself, if you are trying to make yourself right with God by keeping the law and are teaching others to do the same thing, do you think that you will escape judgment? By this teaching you are alienated from Christ and are not under grace, because grace is unmerited favor. It’s a free gift, you can’t earn it!

As for the word of God, true believers are told to contend for the truth of God’s word and that is what I have been doing, because what you are teaching is a lie! You are no different than the Pharisees in the first century church who also would not let go of the Law of Moses. Why? Because they stumbled over the stumbling stone. You’re pouring new into old wineskins and as the Lord said, both the wine and the skins will be ruined. As long as you continue teaching that the works of the law are a requirement for salvation, you are teaching a false teaching.

Johnwaltz not even Yeshua tried to keep all the “laws” and ordinances…
Please keep in mind Yeshua and His disciples did live a Torah observant life at least that is what is reflected in the Writings of the Apostles. According to Rev 12:17 and 14:12 we have to do both accept Yeshua’s eternal sacrifice by faith AND observe His Torah or Constitution. Shalom

With the defeat of Og of Bashan and Sihon of Heshbon, Israel was poised on the east bank of the Jordan to enter Canaan. Moses led a covenant renewal ceremony in which he explained the commandments, ordinances, and statutes of the Law. This included ordinances given at Mount Sinai and those given during the forty years that Israel wandered in the wilderness. These ordinances and statutes are the crown jewels of Israel. Israel’s careful observance of them will reveal to the surrounding nations the chosen people’s wisdom and understanding. No other nation has statutes and ordinances so righteous as those given by Yahweh to Israel ( Deut 4:5-8 ). These are words of life.

But life is not found in outward adherence to sacrificial, dietary, or social ordinances and statutes. Thus Yahweh demands of Israel, “Who asked you for this multitude of sacrifices, new moon, and Sabbath ceremonies” ( Isa 1:11-15 ). The answer, of course, is Yahweh himself. But God cannot tolerate iniquity and religious ritual. God is not fooled when the wicked recite the statutes of the covenant ( Psalm 50:16 ). When the wicked perform the required sacrificial ordinances of the Law they might as well be offering swine’s blood or committing murder ( Isa 66:3-4 ). The apostle Paul states that the work of Christ has abolished the law of commandments and ordinances ( Eph 2:15 ). The author of Hebrews explains how the levitical priesthood and its ordinances were temporary and have been superseded by the work of Jesus. He also reveals that all of God’s saints have been saved by faith. God repudiates any attempt to use the ordinances to manipulate Him (chaps. 9-11).

Yet the ordinances and statutes are still words of life. Isaiah and James give the same solution to the faithless observance of outward forms: cease to do evil, learn to do good, seek justice, correct oppression, defend the fatherless, plead for the widow ( Isa 1:16-17 ; James 1:27 ). The ordinances and statutes reveal God’s will and his understanding of what it means to do good, seek justice, and correct oppression. Psalm 119 beautifully illustrates the wisdom and joy of meditating on ordinances, statutes, commands, and judgments. They are a part of the canon and not to be neglected.

The Israelites made no distinction between ritual or procedural ordinances and legal or moral statutes. They are equally a part of Israel’s covenant with God. To neglect one or the other was to court disaster. To observe them carefully was to court God’s blessings on the individual and the community ( Deut 28 ). God’s desire for his ordinances and statutes remains unchanged as is made clear in the quote of Jeremiah 31:33-34 in Hebrews 10:16-17: “I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.”

On the other hand and to show the ambiguity of these words, this other article presents the nuances of many bible translations regarding these terms:

English translations of the Old Testament contain many different “law”-related words, such as charges, commandments, decrees, judgments, law, ordinances, precepts and statutes. A casual bible-reader can easily get the impression that the Old Covenant’s rules were divided into specific “categories”, eventually of varying importance. This has led to that some have tried to sort out what difference there was between those things. Also, some have wondered which of those rules might apply in our day and age.

The purpose of this article is to show that even though many bible-translations contain wordings which can cause the reader to think that the rules of the Old Covenant were in some way “categorized”, that does not really have a basis in the Hebrew text. – A part of this matter is that translators have often rendered a given Hebrew word in many different ways, in different passages, and that a given English word can be a translation of a number of different Hebrew words.
An example: In passages where some commonly used bible-versions have the word “ordinance”, the Hebrew word in question can be choq, chuqqah, mishmereth, mishpat or mitsvah. Turning that the other way: In many bible-versions, for instance the word choq is translated in several different ways, such as “appointed”, “bounds”, “commandments”, “custom”, “decree”, “due”, “law”, “ordinance”, “portion” and “statute”. – In short: There is no consistency in translation. This applies to many English bible-versions, perhaps most of them.

Dmcal I read up to where you claim I said “By your teaching, that the works of the law are required for salvation,” and had to stop reading. When did I make such a claim? On the contrary, I have stated on more than one occasion that Torah (that is what Yeshua and His apostles called it, it’s not really ‘law’) is only for the saved by faith in Yeshua’s sacrifice. There is only one way to the Father which is salvation through Yeshua (not trying to be Hebrew here either, people knew Him by His Hebrew, some say Aramaic name, not by the Roman ‘ieosus’ which was transliterated later as Jesus). In fact technically that is what the word ‘yeshua’ means, salvation, which was His name according to the angel. There should be no doubt whatsoever of this, He is salvation. Now ONCE the person accepts the salvation or sacrifice of Yeshoshua Ben Yosef, then that person is expected to follow in His steps, which are the steps of a Torah observant Jew. This is precisely what His apostles were doing when they waited for the anointing of the Holy Spirit at the house of prayer, the Temple in Jerusalem, on the annual feast of Shavuot (translated to “Pentecost’). His apostles, like Yeshua, continued following Torah, THE RIGHT WAY, years after Yeshua’s death and resurrection. Faith goes hand in hand with action, especially in the Hebrew mindset (sorry but the writers of the bible were Israelites). It was not till after the interference of pagans (that did not know Torah), such as Ignatious, Marcion and Tertulian that things began to change resulting in the confusion we have today.

James (Yacob really) the brother of Yeshua wrote:

• James 2:14
What good is it, my brothers, if someone claims to have faith but has no actions to prove it? Is such “faith” able to save him?”

• James 2:17
Thus, faith by itself, unaccompanied by actions, is dead.”

• James 2:18
But someone will say that you have faith and I have actions. Show me this faith of yours without the actions, and I will show you my faith by my actions!”

This is how a Gentile that has Torah in his heart by doing what Torah says still has it accounted to him as righteousness or Torah. You can’t say you have faith in Yeshua but live like the pagans do. That was the main complaint Yah had with His people Israel, they did the outward but not the inward and you have to have BOTH. The actions follow the faith in the one that gave the actions to begin with.

does anyone here really believe that the holy word of god has been dilluted by later versions from the original writtings? i am speaking of the regular king james bible. (not the new easy to understand version so to say). do you not think god would make sure that his word was kept clear enough so people could use the regular king james version? (again not the new revised one that came out about 20 years or so back). when it states; faith without works is dead, it is talking about how you conduct yourself (morals), it is talking about sowing seed to the lost. it is talking about; making an attempt to bring the light of christ to those who are in darkness. otherwords; don’t think you can accept jesus as your saivour and then simply go to some building which we call a church, and your going to be able to enter into eternal life. or go to church every sunday then go back home and do nothing to bring light to those who are in darkness. this is the works it is refuring to. not things like; you cannot work on the sabbath, the sacrafices we are to do since jesus died and arose are not the old testiment sacrifices, such as offering a lamb, bull, etc. and all of the daily rituals back in the old testiment, which if you did not do every single one exactly right you would not have remission of your sins during the time of the law. the law is been replaced by grace. and the works are the ones i have mentioned above. i see a lot of references to hebrew words that according to some of us have many meanings. this is confusion. god is not the author of confusion. i am sorry if some are offended by these words. but going back and forth about what the original hebrew ment and so forth gains nothing. if you want to gain something; go out and warn the lost. go out and preach the good news; christ has risen. and by his grace everyone has the ability and choice to accept the grace of christ or refuse it. but our job is to show the lost, the way to the light.///////

How is it that you claim that your salvation is by grace through faith and then in the same post you reveal the opposite? You circumvent Scripture by saying, salvation is received by believing in Yeshua and then you say, once you receive him, then you must follow in his steps by keeping the law of Moses. So let me ask you this, regarding the things written in the law, what do you keep or perform as a requirement for salvation? You see, we are either saved by grace through faith by the sacrifice provided by the Lord or we are saved by faith in Christ in conjunction with our keeping the works of the law. So, which is it? It can’t be both. Either Jesus accomplish everything in the law and by our faith in him we are credited with righteousness or we are working for our salvation. It can’t be both.

Having faith means that, we are looking for our salvation by what God provided through his Son, whereas, when we try to keep the works of the law, we are attempting to earn salvation by our own efforts. As I said before, the true believer in Christ believes that he provided our salvation. Whenever you include something that must be done or kept, such as holy days, feasts, abstaining from certain foods, etc., then you are saying that what Jesus did wasn’t enough.

I’ll use father Abraham as an example: It is written that God credited Abraham with righteousness for his faith. No works were involved or required in Abraham being credited with righteousness, but it was by pure faith. And that faith was that God promised Abraham that he would give him a son. And Abraham’s faith was that, even though he was 100 years old, he knew that God was able to fulfill what he had promised. His being credited with righteousness was not dependent upon feeding and clothing the poor or abstaining from foods, keeping feasts, etc., or by performing any other effort on his part. He was credited with righteousness because he settled it in his heart that nothing is impossible with God and that what he had promised him, God would do. We are all the spiritual children of Abraham if we have the same kind of faith. But when we have the attitude that we must keep and perform the things of the law, then we are not having the faith that Abraham had, because we are attempting to earn it by works instead of simply trusting in him for salvation. It does not therefore depend on man’s efforts.

Should we do good works? Yes! It should be our very desire to look for every opportunity to do good works that we may glorify God. But we do not do those works for the sake of salvation, because we received that by believing that Christ shed his blood for us, was buried and rose again on the third day. That is salvation! That’s the gospel!

When I am given the opportunity to testify of my Lord and to share his word with others, I tell them that Christ paid the penalty for their sins and that he is offering eternal life and that if they will believe that and follow him, then they will be saved and have eternal live according to his promise. I do not continue on saying to them, that they keep must keep the Law of Moses and perform all kinds of works. I don’t even bring up the law of Moses or the ten commandments when preaching Christ. The covenant of the Law has been replaced with a new covenant, which is completely different than the first one. The Law of Moses was not meant to last forever, but only until the One of whom the law and prophets spoke of had come. Now that Christ has come we are no longer under or required to attempt to meet the requirements of the law. Does not being under the law mean that we have free reign to sin? God forbid! It just means that under this new covenant we look to Jesus as the One who fulfilled everything.

If you or anyone wants to keep a feast or a holy day or abstain from certain foods in honor to God, I see no problem with that, as long as the performing of those things are not a requirement for salvation. When you make them a requirement, then you take the focus off Jesus’ finished work on the cross and put the focus on your own efforts as needful for salvation.

What you are doing is a 360! You say, I believe that we are saved only by believing in Yeshua and then once you believe in him you must follow him by keeping the law of Moses. So by doing this, you do a little ring-around-the-rosy, circumventing the word of God by magically bringing everyone back under the law of Moses.

When will man stop trying to take credit for salvation and give the credit to Christ?!

You are very right in saying that I have a “black vs. white perspective” on the law vs. grace and that because both cannot be the truth. Believers are supposed to be able to discern between the truth of God’s word and false teachings. But it seems to you guys that if someone believes and teaches something other than what Scripture states, then you just consider it someone elses interpretation. No harm, not foul! But that is not the case. God made it clear through Paul’s letters that, those who teach that salvation is gained by observing the law of Moses are false teachers. This teaching leads others away from the truth of salvation which is obtained by faith in the finished work of Christ and that without trusting in our own efforts, but on him alone. We as believers are supposed to be teaching, training, correcting, rebuking and contending for the truth of God’s word and that is what I have been doing.

The world is being inundated with false teachers and their teachings, which is in fulfillment of the following:

“For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.”

So, I will continue to point these things out or as Paul wrote, “Have nothing to do with the fuitless deeds of darkness, rather expose them.” Shofar has made it known that a person must obey the Torah, which is the Law of Moses in order to obtain salvation and thereby trusting in the observance of those things, which alienates them from Christ and causes them to wander away from grace. You cannot obtain salvation by being under the law and that because it takes the focus off Jesus as paying the price for our sins and puts it on the efforts of the person trusting in their own works.

Obeying the law as a means of salvation will have the opposite affect on the person who is trusting in it. Jesus came to fulfill the law and bring it an end, as satisying it requirements, not to perpetuate it. Scipture says, “If you confess with you mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” Did you see anything in that verse that included obeying the law of Moses?

The problem that we have today is that, Christians want to be politically correct in order to be in good standing with the world. They don’t want to rock the boat and so God loves everyone! And God loves those living same-sex life styles even if they have no intention of repenting. Oh, and today if a Christian speaks the truth of God’s word, then we are labeled as haters! Why? Because the unbelievers don’t want to hear the truth,.they don’t want to be exposed as being sinners and so instead they justify their sins and embrace them saying, God loves me just as I am and I have no intention of changing. And the church agrees with them.

This attitude reminds me of the church of Laodicea who are neither hot nor cold and because of this attitude, they have no enemies of the cross, because they’re not bearing their crosses, their Christianity is not noticeable to them. The so-called believers of today just want to appease the world. However, this time of complacency is coming to an end, where persecution and the threat of death will once again separate the true Chritians from the false and that because those who are false will not allow themselves to be persecuted or give up their lives for Christ. Then the proverbial line will be drawn in the sand and we will see who’s who.

True believers need to get off the fence and start standing up for their faith in Christ and the truth of God’s word, instead of compromising so as to appease everyone and not rock the boat.

Hi Marianne, going back to your point to differentiate between laws and ordinances perhaps this might help cover the differences as it seems man has confused Yah’s rightful teachings with man’s own(presumptuous) laws.

What changes did the “early church fathers” seem to have introduced among believers?

From a careful reading of the Writings of the Apostles one can see that Yeshua and His apostles kept Yah’s Torah* but not the man made laws. This continued to be the case even after Yeshua’s death and resurrection **. So what happened in the ensuing years after the Roman destruction of the house of prayer or Temple in Jerusalem? Did the Netzarim believers continued to worship at the synagogues with the rest of the Jews as before *** or where changes made? It was sometime after the destruction of the Temple that a definite division seems to have occurred between traditional Jews and those who believed Yeshua to be the promised Messiah resulting in their slowly no longer being together. When the Netzarim saw the Romans assailing Jerusalem many scattered and hid. Thousands of Jews both believers and otherwise died at the hands of Rome. Later a definite schism opened up when Nazarenes where asked by some rabbis to join their newly appointed “messiah”, Bar Kokhba, in the (third) revolt fight against the Roman dictatorship, 132–136 CE, and these naturally refused to join them. Additionally with the passing away of the Jewish apostles new leaders led the flock of believers. This is what I want to address here. Many of those new leaders did not have a solid Torah background and understanding, and many if not all, came from practicing paganism. Remember Acts 15:21? The pagans upon leaving behind their paganism instead of rushing to get circumcised were supposed to attend synagogue every Sabbath to learn Torah. What happened when that was no longer possible, where did they get their learning from? If the synagogues were no longer available to them and if the elder disciples had died then how could they learn Torah, the ONLY scriptures Yeshua and His apostles used to teach? Back then as it is today, Torah was hand written in very expensive scrolls and the press had not been invented. Moreover many of them could not read the language of Torah, Hebrew. We know there was a translation to Greek made in Alexandria, Egypt, The Septuagint but it’s not like they would have made copies of it for distribution or anything like that. So basically these men were left basically without scriptures to study. They only had a few letters of the apostles that circulated by horseback. One can’t hardly blame them if they infused their prejudices and pagan traditions in their teachings; they had little else in the form of scripture, the same scripture they as former pagans were supposed to have learned every Sabbath at the synagogues, Acts 15:21. Yet these men are the ones often referred to as ‘fathers of the church’. These apparently were the leaders left to lead much of the flock…

Just the other day I read something about the Christian church being the only one that does not try to emulate its leader and I fear they are right. If Yeshua, the living Torah is really in your heart you would do as He did. You can say “WWJD“ all day long but if you say you love Him and go to that pork BBQ on His Sabbath then you are not really showing it by your actions. Actions, as they say speak louder than words. How are you different from a teacher of the law and Pharisee if you say you love Him but basically do what the church inherited from Rome?
To sum up the early influence of the “church fathers” let us just look at two of them that early on made big changes and influenced new believers away from the Torah Netzarim observant lives that Yeshua and His disciples led.

Firstly let’s briefly look at Ignatius of Antioch, 50-98 to110 CE, who contrary to popular belief was not a disciple of the Apostle John. From what we have left of his letters he established the Gentile church hierarchical system with the bishops having authority to represent “God” on earth directly; he gave himself the title of Theophorus or “God inspired or bearer”. Interestingly reading about his actions in this regard reminds me of the incident in the wilderness of Korah when he and others questioned Yah’s decision to place Aaron and Moses in charge of Israel. In a way that is what Ignatius and many of his followers have done questioning Yah’s choices of chosen people and establishing their own hierarchy instead. That is exactly what Satan did when it fell from grace; it wanted to establish its own hierarchy independent from the Almighty’s. Like Satan, Ignatius wanted to establish a universal or catholic system based on hierarchical control of the multitudes. Ignatius, not understanding the difference between man- made laws and Yah’s Torah hated all things that he deemed “Jewish”, both Yah’s Torah and the rabbinical teachings. To Ignatius it is also attributed to have brought into the church the eucharist concept, which is of pagan origins. Ignatius taught that it was wrong to believe in Messiah and still “live like Jews”. I suppose since the Writings of the Apostles had not been codified then he missed the fact that all of them, including Messiah, “lived like the Jews” they were. He labeled anyone, weather Jew or Gentile, a ‘Judaizer’ for trying to observe Yah’s Sabbath, feast days, and food ordinances regardless if they were saved or not. He said that doing so meant they “fell from grace”. He twisted the reason Yah gave His people the Sabbath as an eternal mark between Him and Israel claiming instead it was as a punishment. He simply could not differentiate between man- made rules and the teachings of Yah for His people Israel that Yeshua and His disciples actually followed. If they were done away with as Ignatius wrongly taught, why did Yeshua and His apostles favorably quoted them over 200 times? Ignatius hated the Sabbath, the only day that Yah has blessed and set apart (favoring instead sun day) as much as he seemed to have hated Jews.

Marcion, a Gnostic, is an interesting case because although officially the church ostracized him, it winded up adopting many of his beliefs, including his concept of an “Old” and “New” Testament, terminology that causes confusion to this day between covenants. Like Ignatius who was unable to discern between Yah’s righteous Torah and man- made laws and regulations, he erected many churches that preached against the “false Jewish” doctrines. He taught that “ieosus” (back then there was still no letter “J” but they had already started Hellenizing Yeshua’s name) came to set us free and do away with Torah (Yeshua’s own Torah really). Neither of these Gentile men, who were raised in paganism, studied the only scriptures that Yeshua and the disciples had and used to give the good news to the Jew first and also to the Gentile.

Still neither of these two men could hold a candle to the vitriolic hatred against Yeshua’s brethren that some of the subsequent “fathers of the church” displayed, such as Origen of Alexandria (185-254 A.D.) and John Chrysostom (344-407 A.D). One can trace much of today’s Christian church beliefs to these pagan men that in their confusion and ignorance of the Word left behind; a true Babylon.

The persecution and distortion of Yeshua’s teachings and actions began early on and continues to this day as satan still questions Yah’s authority and asks man the question “Did God really said that?”

Rev 12:17
17 The dragon was infuriated over the woman and went off to fight the rest of her children, those who obey God’s commands and bear witness to Yeshua.”

Just wanted to say I appreciate both of you. It is not easy being Messianic on a Christian website. Without taking anything from our Christian brothers and sisters, I applaud your efforts. At best, it is a tough row to hoe. It is always good to remember, all we can do is plant seed and maybe water, but it is Messiah that brings in the increase at the time of harvest.

I have to confess, that after years of this, it is easy to let it get personal, which should never happen. To any I may have offended in this manner, I apologize.

Just wanted to say thanks to Marianne. You have a hard task as moderator, but you do it well with equity and fairness. With that being said, it is still time for planting and watering, so the discussions go on.

Marianne – I will address this to you directly, because you and I have had discussions in public and in private, and I don’t think you will feel insulted, but others might take this wrong .

There are obviously a few here who are of a “Messianic” view point –

(1) Am I correct in understanding that those of “Messianic” belief, believe in Jesus Christ as their savior, AND they keep Hebrew traditions such as the Sabbath and the various Festivals?

If that is correct:
(2) Then do those of such a path believe that those who attend church on Sundays, and / or do not follow Torah or keep the Hebrew Festivals – that we are diluted by Rome and Satan, follow watered down traditions (or non traditions) and are condemned to not go to Heaven?

And, if others understand my question, by all means, please jump in here.

I don’t want to sound insulting or idiotic, I do want to understand others’ points of view and belief, and if it is different from my own, decide for me what is true and what is not. I feel this is a safe place to not worry about being offensive or sounding idiotic so we can ask the questions that never get asked.

I mean – I don’t go to Saturday or Sunday services, any where – this here, this blog, this Internet site is about as close as I come to, to a “church” of any kind. I have a King James Bibles, not the new, not the revised . . . I have had it since the 1970’s (published in 1955), and certainly, today, there are all kinds of versions and study tools available on the Internet. I have had a relationship with God since age 3, take walks with Christ on many occasions; pray daily and also do “active listening” with God (there is a difference) continue to read and study the Bible – but as for any traditions I follow, that is about it.

i do not go to a physical building we call a church, i do not go because in the past i would get up right in the middle of the sermon and question something the preacher was saying, because i felt he was using his own beliefs instead of gods word. i posted this before. but we can have church anywhere, it does not need to be in a specific building. it can simply be between two people discussing the word of god. i am a little confused about this (keeping the feasts and not eating pork stuff). as i view it christ came to make a better way. so we no longer needed to do the daily sacrifices. now as for the 10 commandments, yes they will always be. the ordences i could understand to a point; such as a brother shall not lay with his sister, etc. etc. these are not ordences in the same manner as sacrificing a lamb or a burnt offering to god. the ordences are moral ways, they are repeated in the new testiment, not word for word but still the same. i hope others understand the meaning i am trying to convey.

Whenever / wherever people are gathered in His name, however many or few, I agree that a “church” or place of worship does not need to have 4 walls – my “sense” or understanding (I don’t have scripture citations to prove this) of what matters most to God is what is in our hearts – our desire to walk in Christ’s footsteps (live a life as he lived) and our desire / yearning to serve, to know, to love our Father is the most important aspect of our lives. And if I have wrong understanding, I trust that He will guide me.

the sacrificial system for sin is gone, …the feasts are a CELEBRATION of God’s goodness, and really should be thought of opportunities to get closer to God, not some obligation to fulfill…..each one shows the foreshadowing of messiah

as I said to Denise, we are gathered in His name right here….although people are still free to, and (some) do, attend a local church

(2) they believe the beliefs are watered down, which makes one less empowered, and not as close to God as they might wish to be…..but not condemned just because of this…..whether they are saved and go to heaven is between them and God.

That actually makes sense and allows for one’s personal, individual, relationship with God – beyond books or interpreted written words. And helps me understand why people who accept Christ also hold so dear and steadfast to past traditions.

What has changed (perhaps) is purpose, or why one keeps alive what some might see as “old” – it isn’t “old” – it is renewed, as there is deeper understanding. A celebration of, versus a “must” –

You can access the original Hebrew, (Aramaic) and Greek texts, and all of the pertinent and relevant definitions as to how each word can be defined, utilized and then translated.

It is only in Seeking God Himself through the Spirit of Truth, and sincerity of heart, that He can be found.
And I think that this is done best between simply you and Him, then you can be confident within what you believe.

You were a cop. lol.
Use those same passions and investigative skills, and go see what you can find.
I wish you the best, and the Grace of the Lord while you embark on your most important journey.

I noticed that I didn’t receive a response from you regarding the above, and I suspect it is because I can appear to be rather sarcastic and abrasive at times.
I apologize to you and to others regarding that.
It’s just that sometimes I have difficulty in controlling my frustration.
(And because I am basically a sarcastic type of guy. lol.)

Please understand though that when this debate in respects to the Mosaic Law first started, (approximately 4 years ago here), I was patient and all warm and fuzzy.
However as it has continued, I freely admit that I have lost some of that diplomacy within my dialogue with others.

Again I apologize for that, however I believe that the subject is vitally important, (as also does the other side), but I hope that my actions haven’t become a stumbling block for you to utilize that link I had provided above, to further your studies.

No worries. I haven’t gone anywhere. I listen to everyone but also know when something that is being said doesn’t apply to me.

You do throw out some sharp edges at times, and I had to wonder, what was it about me that threatened you so much? You do make assumptions about people.

Instead of listening to people here and asking questions, you seem to think it is better for me to go to some web site to look up scripture. (By the way, I am aware of that website and reference it quite frequently.) So, by your own words, people shouldn’t “bother” to listen to you, either, or take into consideration your thoughts, beliefs, and references. As for having been a cop for many years, part of what we do is we listen to other people. And, yes, the skills are helpful.

In law enforcement, with all of the references we have to codified laws and department regulations, in then end, we are left to discern the letter of the law versus the spirit of the law. It happens day in and day out as to whether we write a ticket or give a warning, or whether we make an arrest or not. Some situations are dictated, obligated by law, as to what actions an officer takes, (the “musts” and “mays” as they are written in) and we have no choice of discernment. But for the most part, it is the individual officer’s “judgment” as to how to resolve a situation we are called into. Separating the spirit from the letter is something we do every day. (I am retired now.)

I take in the spirit of what you said. We are all here to learn.

In listening to both “sides” it seems at times both are actually saying the same thing, it is a matter of semantics that separates the two. And sometimes one word can change the entire meaning of something or how it is perceived.

In the end I always refer to scripture and rely on my own personal relationship with God. But I will still continue to ask questions, as I hope you will continue to add your 2 cents.

You completely misconstrued the intention of what I had said above, for it was an apology not only to you, but also to everyone here before I depart again.

I’m sorry that this wasn’t presented clearly enough above.???

I had made the mistake, (by misunderstanding something you had said in your post of June 24th. @ 3:10 am.), which made me believe that you may be relatively new to our Faith?

I may as well apologize to you for that too while I’m here as well.

So because I misunderstood what you had said, my intentions were simply to inform you of resources like the “blue letter bible” site, in the event that you perhaps weren’t aware of it.

So though I don’t feel that your comments are necessarily warranted, simply because a mistake had been made, and that this mistake had no bearing whatsoever in respects the the intentions of my heart, I will say, that was a pretty good “verbal dressing down” above. lol.

A joke just came to mind which had something to do with Cops.
But I’m afraid that it may be misunderstood as well…..
So I’ll just chuckle and exit stage left.

To all, I wish you God the Fathers Grace.
(I can’t believe the patience and mercy of that Grace, that He can still somehow… put up with me.)

One thing about the Internet and chat boards is we do not have the benefit of seeing another’s facial expressions or hear intonations in speech. So, we don’t hear the joke intended, or see the fleeting moment of frustration, and many times infuse the spaces with our own assumptions. I never needed an apology from you, and since you offered one, I accept. No worries, all is good here. And, I by no means meant to “dress you down” and if I owe you an apology, my mea culpa.

Hugs all around. We are all (for the most part) friends here.

May I always be a “rookie” at the feet of our Lord.

Denise

(These columns of printing are getting skinny, so maybe we should go back to posting on topic.) 🙂

Dmcal52, you wrongly accuse me, basically calling me a heretic asking: “what good is the teaching if it is false and leads to separation from God and eternity in Hell?” Although my views differ from your own I believe that far from sending people to hell they may just have them reconsider leaving the wide comfortable highway of “churchianity” and reconsider what Yeshua, the Jewish Messiah ACTUALLY did and taught. I say this out of love for you and others, not to judge and condemn. Perhaps what I believe Yah has been teaching me seems wrong to you because it does not fit with what you have been taught but has it occurred to you that the beliefs of the majority are not always right? I follow a Jewish Messiah that kept Torah and expanded its true meaning saying not a letter from it will change while this heaven and earth exist, Mat 5:17-19. I don’t do it to gain His grace or salvation but because I am saved and know at His household there is a certain way to behave and it’s not the way of the nations. I don’t do it to follow man made rules, which include many of the ones inherited by the church such as Sunday observance in clear violation of the 4th commandment. I don’t do it out of a sense of dread or ‘I have to’ but because I love the one that saved me and called me out. You may judge me all day long like the Colossians were judged in Col 2, but that is not going to change the assurance the Almighty has placed in my heart. You may instead be heaping hot coals upon your head by falsely accusing the brethren. Remember as you judge me you shall be judged as well. All I am trying to do here is bring scriptures to try to show the other side of the coin so to speak. Sorry to say but your attitude reminds me of that of the Sadducees and Pharisees that confronted Yeshua because He would not follow Torah in the manner in which they prescribed and saw fit to.

Going back to your two questions which I believe I answered; the Torah of Yahweh, not the precepts of man is what is being written, present tense, in the hearts and minds of Judah and Israel. Gentiles are supposed to be grafted to Israel (not to Judah) just as Ruth did. We are supposed to internalize the righteous life that Torah teaches. Yeshua is the living word or living Torah so that when you have Torah in the heart you have in fact Yeshua in your heart. That is not just a “I believe” magic formula; you have to walk to the talk resisting the enemy as we are told to do and praying for one another. We are all supposed to become one in Yeshua’s hands. This is the process of sanctification, the DAILY walk in The Way. Shalom

Dmcal you write: “You circumvent Scripture by saying, salvation is received by believing in Yeshua and then you say, once you receive him, then you must follow in his steps by keeping the law of Moses”.

How can I be circumventing scripture by following Messiah’s steps? Is this not what the apostles clearly did? Also why do you, like the Jews do to this day, call YAH’S ‘laws’ Moses’? Moses did not make them up! Yeshua Himself gave them to Him and when Moses asked him who do I say gave them? Yeshua answered Moses revealing Himself/ future ministry by saying ‘YHVH’, which in their Paleo Hebrew means “Behold the hand; Behold the nail”, clearly a revelation of Yeshua. All along it has been Yeshua who has had the greatest love history with mankind since Adam. He has showed His grace and love for us since then. All He wants is a face to face relationship with us. How can we have one if instead of following The Way He gave us we follow Babylon’s or the man made confusion which is ultimately satan’s?

You again ask me (putting words in my mouth that I never said): ”what do you keep or perform as a requirement for salvation?”

As the bride of Messiah I don’t wish to commit spiritual whoredom, which is what many unwittingly do when they entertain the traditions of men and demons. This has been the case since he called me out and showed me The Way.

I try to remain faithful to my husband Messiah, Yeshua Ben Yosef, and pray will be able to keep my lamp filled with oil till His return as Messiah Ben David. I may not always succeed keeping under submission to Him all the time but He knows my heart that I really try. I don’t observe His ONLY set apart day, HIS Sabbath, to gain anything; it is a pleasure to do so, ditto for Papa’s feasts. I look forward to Sabbaths and gathering with His set apart people. Sure we can do it any day but it’s important to set aside the day HE SAYS to, not the one Rome wants us to. I have no problem staying away from stinking pork and shell fish that in the past made me have instant post nasal drip. Just wish it was always clearly stated in products labels, but I know I am still in the world and when my groom comes to take me home, and I have confidence He will, there won’t be any need to read labels in the Land. Until then I pray daily that He will align the desires of my heart with His Word or Torah which is Yeshua so we can really be one as husband and wife.

You also write: “The covenant of the Law has been replaced with a new covenant, which is completely different than the first one. The Law of Moses was not meant to last forever, but only until the One of whom the law and prophets spoke of had come.”

That sounds like ‘church fathers’ teachings. Torah (I rather call it what He calls it, Torah) has been in effect since creation (see moed in Genesis translated ‘season’ regarding the reason He made the stars, planets, etc). Torah, according to the real Jewish Messiah, will still be in effect while this earth and heaven exists, Mat 5:17-19. That means at least another 1000 years if we count the millennium during which the nations that survive and fail to send reps for Yah’s feast of Succot or Tabernacles will not receive rain that year, Zac 14. Yah’s word is NEVER replaced because His word is eternal, just like He is. It is ‘new’ because when you make any changes to a covenant the whole thing has to be rewritten. In this case it is being rewritten in the hearts of His people. The content however remains exactly the same, same Torah as before. Only this time around we who are being transformed will wind up breathing it, not in a perverted legalistic way as the “teachers of the law” did but in a natural way based in love. The teachings, Constitution, or holy Torah of Yah is meant to last for as long as He does.

Abraham obeyed Torah, Gen 26:5, and was accounted to him as righteousness. According to the book of Jasher, Abraham learned it as a child from Seth, son of Noah.

Genesis 26:5
5 I will do this because Abraham obeyed me and kept my orders, my commandments, my statutes, and my instructions.”

That last word “instructions” is actually the word Torah in the Hebrew language in which it was written. Abraham obeyed Torah even before Torah was written in stone.

Yes, Abraham a man of much faith that was accounted to him for righteousness obeyed Yah’s Torah and received many blessings. In the same way that by faith Ruth in submission went under Boaz’s cover and followed him, that is the pattern given us; the pattern of the groom and bride in the greatest love story ever told. Shalom

You circumvent Scripture, because you claim that salvation is by faith in Christ alone, but then you say, the one who believes in him must observe the Torah, whiich puts the person back under the works of the Law in order to obtain salvation. So here is the problem: Having faith in Christ alone means that we are trusting in him who fulfilled everything and that all we have to do is believe in him and we are credited with righteousness. If you have the attitude that you have to keep or perform the requirments of the law, then you are not trusting in Christ, but in your own efforts.

You said:
“”what do you keep or perform as a requirement for salvation?”

Answer:
I don’t keep anything! I have faith and faith alone for salvation. When I go out everyday, I watch for any and every opportunity to do good works that I may glorify God. But I don’t do those good works as a requirement for salvation and that because Jesus has already provided that for me by fulfilling the law and by paying the penaliy for my sins by the shedding of his blood. I don’t need to do anything to obtain salvation, except have faith. Any good works that I do are strictly for the purpose of glorifying God and by doing so, I am also building up my treasures in heaven, but I don’t do them to earn my salvation. Anytime someone has a requirement that must be done to obtain salvation, then they are not trusting in Christ who fulfill the law perfectly, but in their own efforts. Here is an example, someone says, “I believe in Chirst, but I must also obstain from unclean foods or else I’m condemned” This is an example of someone attempting to earn salvation by their own efforts. When you have a list of things that you must keep or perform in order to obtain salvation, then you are trusting in those things .

If you will trust in Christ’s finished work on the cross for your salvation and perform good works to glorify him, then you will do well. But if you do good works because you believe that they are necessary for salvation, then you are attempting to earn it.

i see that you still do not understand. if one is saved by grace, they will WANT to obey the Torah….at least what is still applicable today…..the bible says there is no more sacrifice for sins…so the ritual and ceremonial laws have no relevance.

but God said in the OT that despite all the tithes and offerings given him, a tradition that churches continue to get revenue, that “obedience was better than sacrifice.”

I guess the bottom line question is…..why do you want to use grace as a justification to disobey God?

This whole theme of Law vs Grace (a manmade phrase and concept) has been going on since the beginning by the enemy. Man had perfection-eternal harmony with Yah in the beginning. The only thing that could break that bond was man breaking the Word of Yah-His Command to not eat the fruit of one specific tree. His grace is given to us if we will love Him enough to trust Him and obey His Word. It is not about being justified by keeping the letter of the law. It is rather about honoring the Word of the One who created us and gave us only good things to keep us in His Way. When you remove the Commandment, you remove the Word (our covering and our protection), and we are left with nothing but iniquity-lawlessness, which puts us in a place of judgment, which pretty much describes where we are at today.

I will leave you with the following verses. They are all rather self-explanatory.

John 14:23
Yahshua answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words; and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Whether someone lived prior to Yahshua saying this, or if that someone lived after Him saying this, even today, it means the same. His Word is settled forever, eternal and unchanging. If the words of Paul “SEEMINGLY” don’t line up with the Words of Messiah, guess where the problem is!

Genesis 3

1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”
2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden,
3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”
4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

How did HaSatan get Adam and Eve to eat of the fruit forbidden by Yah?
He twisted the WORD OF YAH-in other words, he reinterpreted it to change its meaning. Eve knew exactly what Yah had said in the “beginning”, but she chose to believe a lie over the truth given from the “beginning”. The forbidden fruit was compelling.

Notice vs 3 where HaSatan said “Did Yah really say”; is this not where we are at today? How sad, yet appropriate. Man dismisses Yah’s Eternal Word for some other word that comes along later and rejoices in doing so. Eve was deceived and believed a lie over the Word of our Creator, believing that Word to be temporal and subject to change, then took that lie to another to turn them from the truth, thinking she was doing the right thing. And so it still goes on today.

This is nothing but evolutionary thinking! That Yah is ever evolving and changing (you know that Greek progressive thing). Yah is not evolutionary, but rather creationary. The truth originated out of the beginning, thus the word Teshuvah, to turn around and return to the former things given from the beginning. Those things that change not. There is nothing new, just the fulfilling of all that was given at the Bereshit-Beginning.

Dmcal, you answered Marianne regarding me: “You are very right in saying that I have a “black vs. white perspective” on the law vs. grace and that because both cannot be the truth. Believers are supposed to be able to discern between the truth of God’s word and false teachings. But it seems to you guys that if someone believes and teaches something other than what Scripture states, then you just consider it someone elses interpretation. No harm, not foul! But that is not the case. God made it clear through Paul’s letters that, those who teach that salvation is gained by observing the law of Moses are false teachers. This teaching leads others away from the truth of salvation which is obtained by faith in the finished work of Christ and that without trusting in our own efforts, but on him alone. We as believers are supposed to be teaching, training, correcting, rebuking and contending for the truth of God’s word and that is what I have been doing.”

As I have repeated many times, I don’t believe salvation can be obtained by works. However the works or fruits of those saved should follow their salvation. Let me put it to you this way, when a woman marries a man (the salvation step) she has in many cases his name and his protection and he is to be a good faithful husband. Now if she continues to live her life as a single woman going to night clubs, dating, etc, then what kind of wife is she? This is just what happened with Israel (and later her sister Judah). So Yah gave them a certificate of divorce. That meant He could not remarry Israel again. However, Yah in His mercy and love and because His word is eternal decided that if the groom (now born as Son of Man) dies then she is free to remarry. Two things happened; the groom paid the bride price according to the old Jewish wedding tradition, and when He died His blood paid off ALL the liens accumulated against the bride. He in essence set her free to remarry Him all over. Just as He resurrected with a new glorified body she can die to self and be resurrected through Him a new bride. Enter Heb 8:6-12 which as many of the apostle’s writings quotes from the Tanach (“OT”), in this case Jer 31:31-34: the new bride that still is Judah and Israel, plus those Gentiles grafted into Israel (Rom 11), now receives the same wedding contract as before, Yah’s Torah, only this time is being written in the heart of the bride. This is the renewed covenant that required rewriting. Nothing has changed regarding the content of the wife’s and groom’s expectations; the expectations remain.

Now the good wife won’t feel like going out every night to the nightclub and date other men because she, as a living stone indwelled with HIS Torah (=instructions or marriage contract) will not feel like doing so; it’s not in her heart to do so. Her love is all for her beloved husband in whom she trusts by FAITH, not by works. The two are now becoming one. This is a daily process as it is written, not a finished one simply because the groom has not yet returned for His bride/betrothed (in old Jewish weddings the betrothal is like a marriage that has not been consumed and requires a certificate of divorce to break it). We have yet much to learn and get ready for Him. The race has to be run till the end, like it says in Rev 14:12 , 12 This is when perseverance is needed on the part of God’s people, those who observe his commands and exercise Yeshua’s faithfulness.”

This is why Yacob (James), the brother of Yeshua, has this to say:

James 2:14
What good is it, my brothers, if someone claims to have faith but has no actions to prove it? Is such “faith” able to save him?”

James 2:17
Thus, faith by itself, unaccompanied by actions, is dead.”

James 2:18
But someone will say that you have faith and I have actions. Show me this faith of yours without the actions, and I will show you my faith by my actions!”

The two, faith and work, go hand in hand; you can’t have the one without the other. At least from a Hebrew perspective they do do, which is not really the case from the Greek mindset inherited by the Christian church. This is really were you are having issues because you do not understand how can I state I am saved by faith yet do what YOU call works to get saved. I follow my husband Yeshua the best I can and His grace covers me when I fall and repent. I don’t do it so He can save me; I was saved already when I accepted His love offer of marriage. However I want to be a good and faithful wife/servant. I don’t wish to bury my talents or waste them in the world. I want to hear His voice and have Him speak to me daily, even when I sleep. I don’t’ teach others that you have to do “works” in order to receive salvation, that is totally false. That is not what all is about, nor is it my posture.

Furthermore, NOBODY ever kept all the “law”, including Yeshua; that is impossible as not all of Torah pertains to the same person. Yeshua kept the part that pertained to a Jewish male but He didn’t do it so we would not have to do it. Remember He was a Rabbi and as such He gave examples with His actions of HOW to observe Torah the correct way. This is where He and the Pharisees and Sadducees entered into arguments with Him, the HOW aspect and even if. This by the way is typical among rabbis, to have rabbinical discussions of how to apply Torah to our lives, so He was very much acting within His capacity as Rabbi and what He is now our High Priest. The rabbis by then, as it continues to be the case, in their zealously to make sure Israel did not break Torah again as it did before created a series of what is known as “fence laws”. These are laws that are man-made interpretations of the Tanach. The man made protective fence laws had become a heavy burden. Some do not interfere with the spirit of Torah but others do and they in effect tear or “do away” with Torah. When Yeshua and His apostles were accused by some of these men of “breaking the law” they were not referring to breaking Yah’s Torah but rather to breaking the interpretations that THEY have given Torah.

Back then there were two basic competing schools of thought: the school of Hillel which believed in the Spirit of Torah, and the school of Shamai which believed in the letter of Torah sometimes to the point of fanaticism. Rabbi Saul was a student of Gamaliel, grandson of Hillel, and a good expositor of Hillel teaching the spirit of Torah. Notice Rav Shaul never said he “was” a Pharisee in the past tense but “he is” a Pharisee, present tense; he never stopped being a Pharisee, Acts 23:6. Many of the Pharisees which Yeshua argued with obviously were of the school of Shamai in their rigid all or none stances. This is not to say that there are times when such a stance is necessary like when it comes to basic principles such as loving Yah above all things but one can get carried away. The Pharisees from the school of Shamai often adhered to man-made black and white rules and these are the ones they judged Yeshua by, the popular politically minded extremists judging others for not doing things their way. They could be Pharisees, Muslims, Crusaders, Inquisitors, and even well meaning Christians. Sorry but I see you as another Pharisee from the school of Shamai killing Yeshua (and you can kill a person with words) because He did not follow THEIR strict interpretation of Yah’s word.

You have said in your other post that those who believe in Yeshua must walk as he walked and since he observed the Torah, then those who believe in him must also observe the Torah. The Torah is made up of the first five books of Moses, which contains all of the Law that God gave to Moses and the Israelites. So, to get to the bottom of this issue, allow me ask the following questions:

1. Do you keep the feasts listed within the Torah and is the keeping of them mandatory for salvation along with faith in Christ?

2. Do you abstain from the foods that are listed as unclean in the Torah and is this practice mandatory for salvation along with faith in Christ?

3. Are the keeping of the holy days listed in the Torah mandatory for salvation along with faith in Christ?

These are just a few questions, but your answers will clear up this issue that we have be debating about.

You quoted:
“What good is it, my brothers, if someone claims to have faith but has no actions to prove it? Is such “faith” able to save him?”

James wrote the information above in response to Paul’s teaching that

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.”

What Paul wrote is true. The true believer is zealous to do good works, but not as a means for salvation, but to please God and to glorify him. Father Abraham is the example of our faith. He was credited with righteousness by faith alone, without works and that faith was that he believed that God was able to do what he had promised. God did not credit Abraham with righteousness based on feeding and clothing the poor or any other work, but by simply believing that God was able to perform what he had promised.

Furthermore, the man who was crucified with Christ represents the simplicity of the gospel in that, he could not come down from the cross to be baptized or feed or cloth the poor or perform any other good work. He was saved simply by professing Christ, not by any works, but only by saying,

“Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom,”

and that’s it! Pure faith! We clothe and feed the poor and perform other works to glorify God, but we cannot earn salvation by performing those things, because then you could take credit for your own salvation by claiming those deeds.

In any case, your answers to the questions above will put an end to this debate and if I have misunderstood, then you have all of my apologies. My only concern is to contend for the truth and accuracy of God’s word and not to just argue with people. Please just answer the questions truthfully to the point and that will settle this issue.

Though you are well aware that I hold your same position in respects that we are no longer under, or subjected to that of the Mosaic Law, I would like to address a few things in respects to your response to Shofar.

Your say in your post to Shofar above,
“Father Abraham is the example of our faith. He was credited with righteousness by faith alone, without works and that faith was that he believed that God was able to do what he had promised. God did not credit Abraham with righteousness based on feeding and clothing the poor or any other work, but by simply believing that God was able to perform what he had promised.
Furthermore, the man who was crucified with Christ represents the simplicity of the gospel in that, he could not come down from the cross to be baptized or feed or cloth the poor or perform any other good work. He was saved simply by professing Christ, not by any works, but only by saying, “Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom,” and that’s it!”

In my opinion the above is not entirely correct. Abraham performed “WORKS” of “OBEDIENCE” as well.

Hebrews 11:8.;
“By faith Abraham OBEYED when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And HE WENT OUT, not knowing where he was going.”

Hebrews 11:17.;
“By faith Abraham, when he was tested, “OFFERED UP ISAAC”, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,”

Hebrews 11:24, 25.;
“By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter; CHOOSING RATHER TO SUFFER AFFLICTION WITH THE PEOPLE OF GOD, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;”

This consisted of LABOURING and WORKING and being OBEDIENT, and EVERY OTHER individual that is mentioned within this chapter ALSO DID, OR PERFORMED SOMETHING, TO DEMONSTRATE THEIR FAITH!

And what you say regarding the “thief that was crucified” with Yeshua to substantiate your point, is to me not taking into account the very fact of the circumstances that the thief was in!

You even say yourself above, “HE COULD NOT COME DOWN FROM THE CROSS”!
Don’t you think that perhaps that had a bearing on the thief’s limitations?

Do you suppose that Yeshua knew that he couldn’t come down from the cross?
Do you think that the guy could just “pull out the nails, and hop on down”?
Not likely. And Yeshua knew that!

However, if he could have hopped down, wouldn’t you believe that the following Scripture would be as applicable to the “thief” as it is to all of us?

James 2:15-17.;
“If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but YOU DO NOT GIVE THEM THE THINGS WHICH ARE NEEDED FOR THE BODY, what does it profit? Thus also faith by ITSELF, if it DOES NOT HAVE WORKS, is DEAD.”

(How much simpler does a verse have to be written to be understood? However you do appear to disregard it, and dismiss it altogether, and use some poor guy “pinned” to a cross to ATTEMPT to prove your point?)

So when Yeshua questions, “WILL I FIND FAITH?” at the end of Luke 18:8., He is saying, “Will I find those that are OBEDIENT to My Commandments and will “Love and Care” for others as I had “Loved and Cared” for them?” (*John 13:34,35.*, Whereas all of the following verses are referring to that New Commandment, and not of the Mosaic Law….. John 14:15, (21), (23), 15:7, 8, 9, 10., (12), (17).)

(Coincidently, those from the Church of Philadelphia, (or “BROTHERLY LOVE”), fulfilled those New Commandments and demonstrated that their Faith was not dead! (What I believe to be the Wise.)

Those from the Church of Laodicea DIDN’T and they apparently instead, CARED ONLY FOR THEMSELVES. (What I believe to be the Foolish.)

Therefore they will be SPIT OUT- VOMITED and EXPELLED, and will be subjected to the Trail and Tribulation to demonstrate that Faith, that they didn’t bother to demonstrate when they had the opportunity to do so the first time.)

However all of those of the past that are written about regarding their Faith in Hebrews 11., , all “performed something” along with their Faith, and I personally think that you using the “thief of the cross that was crucified with Yeshua” to try and prove your point, has no foundation as an example.
The thief simply couldn’t come down from the Cross!

If someone who is paralyzed (and in a Hospital for life) comes to the Faith that Yeshua is their Savior, do you think that Yeshua will not understand that this individual is limited in as to what they can do? They of course, will be accepted based upon their Faith.
But if that someone has no limitations whatsoever, they will be required to fulfill and do more, and demonstrate their Faith.

We have to demonstrate our Faith, by “Labouring, Striving and Earning” those “blessings” and for the opportunity to walk through that “Open Door”.
We “WORK” at it, as Scripture clearly states.

Matthew 7:21.
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, BUT HE “THAT DOES” THE WILL OF MY FATHER in heaven.”

Luke 6:46.
“But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and “DO NOT DO” THE THINGS WHICH I SAY?”

James 1:23-25.
“For if anyone IS A HEARER OF THE WORD “AND NOT” A DOER, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a FORGETFUL HEARER “BUT A DOER” OF THE “WORK””, this one will be blessed in what he does.”

It isn’t just coincidence that the parable of the “Talents” (Matthew 25:14-30.), directly follows that of the parable of the Ten Virgins, and how Yeshua ends that parable by saying that the servant “THAT DIDN’T DO ANYTHING WAS UNPROFITABLE”, and will be cast into the outer darkness, (which in immediately following the Ten Virgin parable would be representing the “shut door”, and what the foolish virgins did, or better yet……. didn’t do).

The “buy” in Matthew 25:9,10., and in Revelation 3:18. is referring to “labour for” and “earn” that “oil” and those “white garments”.

The English word(s) “buy” in Matthew 25 verse 9 and “to buy” in verse 10, and also utilized within Revelation 3:18., were translated from the Greek “ἀγοράζω”, transliterated as, “agorazō”, (Strong’s 59), and it is defined as meaning, “to be in the MARKET PLACE, to ATTEND it, to do BUSINESS there, BUY OR SELL, of IDLE PEOPLE: to HAUNT THE MARKET PLACE, LOUNGE THERE.”

Please compare this to the parable of “the WORKERS in the Vineyard” of Matthew 20;1-16.;

“For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to HIRE LABOURERS for his vineyard. Now when he had agreed with the LABOURERS for a denarius a day, He sent them into his vineyard. And He went out about the third hour and saw OTHERS STANDING IDLE IN THE MARKETPLACE, and said to them, “You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.” So they went.

Again He went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did likewise. And about the eleventh hour he went out and found OTHERS STANDING IDLE, and said to them, “WHY HAVE YOU BEEN STANDING HERE IDLE ALL DAY?” They said to him, “BECAUSE NO ONE HIRED US.” He said to them, “You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right you will receive.” So when evening had come, the owner of the vineyard said to his steward, “Call the LABOURERS AND GIVE THEM THEIR WAGES, beginning with the LAST to the FIRST.” And when those came who WERE HIRED about the eleventh hour, they each received a denarius. But when the first came, they supposed that they would receive more; and they likewise received each a denarius. And when they had received it, they complained against the landowner, saying, “These last men have worked only one hour, and you made them equal to us who have borne THE BURDEN OF THE HEAT of the day.” But he answered one of them and said, “Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius? Take what is yours and go your way. I wish to give to this last man the same as to you. Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things? Or is your eye evil because I am good?” So the LAST WILL BE THE FIRST, AND THE FIRST LAST. FOR MANY ARE CALLED, BUT FEW CHOSEN.”

The English word “LABOURERS” in verses 1, 2, and 8 is derived from the Greek, “ἐργατῶν”, transliterated as, “ergatēs”, (Strong’s 2040). Ergatēs is defined as, “1-a workman, a labourer. 1A- usually one who works for hire esp. an agricultural worker. 2-one who does, a worker, perpetrator.”

Where the difference appears to lie between those that believe that following the Mosaic Law is necessary, as opposed to those that believe that we are no longer under, or subjected to the Law, is what ones definition of “Works” and “Commandments” appears to be.

In respects to what Yeshua says in Matthew 7:21.;
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, BUT HE “THAT DOES” THE WILL OF MY FATHER in heaven.”

In Matthew 22:36. Yeshua was asked a question by one that was learned in the Mosaic Law.
“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”

Yeshua answered in Matthew 22:37-40.
“You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbour as yourself. On these two commandments “hang”, (literally “sum up”), all the Law and the Prophets.”

We see a wonderful example of Yeshua stating as how to DEMONSTRATE OUR FAITH by LOVING OUR NEIGHBOUR within Luke 10:33-37. and the parable of the Good Samaritan; This in my opinion, is the correct context to the word “WORKS” and “FRUIT of THE SPIRIT”.

Yeshua says…..

“But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion. So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, ‘Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.”

(The above ties in directly with that of James 2:14-26., and Faith without “WORKS” being DEAD.)

Then Yeshua asks the question…
“So which of these three do you think was neighbour to him who fell among the thieves?”
The learned scribe answers…
“He who showed mercy on him.”

Yeshua then answers….
“Go and do likewise.”

So that would be one example of “WORKS” and how we are to be obedient by LOVING OUR NEIGHBOUR.

But what about LOVING GOD with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind?

Well, Yeshua spoke only what the Father had told Him to speak. This is expressed in John 3:34., 8;28., 12;49,50., 14:10., 14:24. and 17:8.

Yeshua says in John 13:34,35., which would therefore be a direct commission by the Father for Yeshua to speak;

“A “New Commandment” I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

And then He references this Commandment within John 14:15.;
“If you love Me, keep My commandments.”

Then in John 14:21.;
“He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

Then in John 14:23,24.;
“Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.”

Then in John 15:10.;
“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.”

Then again in John 15:12.;
“This is My Commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.”

So through Yeshua the Father has said, “This is My Commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.”

However those that follow that of the Mosaic Law, see the word “Commandment” and jump directly to that of the Mosaic Law, rather than what is expressed above by the Father, through Yeshua.

Those that don’t believe that we are under, or subjected to the Mosaic Law, (as expressed by Paul within Scripture numerous times), see the word “Commandment” and take into consideration what is expressed above.

So it will all come down to “which”, is actually “doing the will of the Father”?

Those that wish to follow the Law, or those that believe the above and choose to walk in the Spirit.

Well “yes” that would be correct because it is clearly stated there by James within Scripture. However “what” WORKS did James utilize for an example that would clarify what the definition of “WORKS” consist of?

God the Father says within Jeremiah 31:31-34, that He will make a New Covenant that is different than the one that He made with Israel on Sinai.
However He didn’t provide us with what the specific details were, that would somehow make it different.

Now, if one believes that we are currently in this “New Covenant”, (though within the original Koine Greek text, Yeshua does not state within the translations of Matthew 26:28., and Mark 14:24. the word “καινὴν” or New, and it was only included within Erasmus’s translation of the Textus Receptus as “καινῆς”), Yeshua does indeed utilize the word “καινὴ”, or New, within that of Luke 22:20..

As well, this is confirmed and verified by Paul within 1 Corinthians 11:25., (καινὴ, or New), and by the author of Hebrews within Hebrews 8:13., (καινὴν, or New), and Hebrews 12:24., (νέας, or recently born, young, youthful. New).

Therefore this isn’t somehow a “renewed” Covenant as some would speculate or believe, (for there are 4 Greek words that could have been utilized which would clearly express that it is only “renewed”). Hence we should all believe the text and what is written, and take what is stated at face value.

This “New Covenant” would have only become effective after Yeshua died on the Cross, (see Hebrews 9:16,17.)

Therefore since God the Father hadn’t provided any details regarding what these changes would consist of within Jeremiah 31:31-34., one would logically assume, that God has now provided these details within that of the New Covenant text instead.

Hence Yeshua choosing Paul for His ministry.

So the question still remains the same….
Does ones definitions of both “Works” and “Commandments” stay consistent and remain with the Old, or does one accept what Scripture states regarding the New?

The choice is left up to us to decide.
Be Blessed “IN” Yeshua our Everything.

I’m not sure as to who you addressed your above comment to specifically, however I would agree.
There is nothing provided within any New Covenant text and Scripture that would suggest that we are to follow the Mosaic Law by the letter.
We are to walk in the Spirit now, and the changes to the Law that was given at Sinai to the people of Israel, are provided for our understanding within New Covenant text.

it was not directed to any specific person. we all should know the works of the spirit already. i still half to go back to where the man asked jesus; which? ( the 10 commandments) the answer jesus gave the man is extremely relevant. and also the man that asked jesus ; “which” is very important also, that verse was placed in gods word for a special reason,

Ephraim is a representation of the foolish virgins, who are not filled with the Spirit but with wine/strong drink (the world).

Ephraim is not listed in Revelation chapter 7 for a reason, replacing the tribe of Dan. Manasseh is chose to replace Dan.

The evangelical church does seem to fit the profile of Ephraim – a people group (tribe) that is not filled with the Spirit, does not repent and is not sealed with the 144,000.

6 of the 7 of the churches have issues, requiring repentance. If they don’t repent – they sure must be foolish virgins seeking oil for their lamps, left outside the house with the door shut (like Noah’s Ark).

Within your reply – your wrote:

“I suspect that though you’ve read that verse before many times, you’ve never considered this context before?

Notice as well, that the phrase, “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.” is used last used in Revelation 3:22.”

Yes, and here is the meaning of the above verse:

“The hearing ear and the seeing eye, The Lord has made them both” (Proverbs 20:12, NKJV).

So then –

Since you strongly reject watching a Derek Prince message on “The Lord’s Treasure” as I requested – I don’t need or really care to read your materials.

Please, argue / debate, quote Scriptures with someone else.

“Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever” (Hebrews 13, NKJV).

Right Al, as you pointed out: ‘“Did Yah really say”; is this not where we are at today? How sad, yet appropriate. Man dismisses Yah’s Eternal Word for some other word that comes along later and rejoices in doing so. Eve was deceived and believed a lie over the Word of our Creator,…”

The enemy keeps on twisting and twisting words, and keeps asking “Did Yah really say” over and over to keep man away from Yah.

Marianne – The discourse between Shofar and Dmcal, I have been listening to with great earnest. I listen to one, and then I think, “Well, yes, that is true, I agree.” Then I listen to the other, and then I think, “Well, yes, that is true, I agree.”

What I am understanding is, that both those who believe in grace and those in the law – each follow Christ AND “do good works” out of celebration of our Lord, not out of “earning” anything, there is nothing worthy beyond His grace, because it is by His grace and only His grace that we are “saved”. Our gratitude is the sacrifice.

If one keeps the covenant of sacrifice because THAT is the Way (and the ONLY way) to salvation – through one’s effort, then one has kept the covenant without full understanding. God does not need our “burnt offerings” because everything, already, belongs to God. The greatest sacrifice we can make is our offering up of our gratitude.

If one keeps the commandments and festivals out of “obligation” without faith, then the “works” are without merit. Likewise if one holds on to one’s faith, and only faith, and not live one’s life, as Christ, in Christ – “faith without works” – then that faith is hollow. I won’t repeat it in it’s entirety here but I refer to Psalms 50, the Psalm of Asaph. Faith without works is dead. Works without faith is dead. Authentic faith is revealed by the works we do through faith. Faith is not an opinion of fact but a state of mind and of heart, a state of being. True faith results in appropriate deeds, and it is by grace we are saved, not the result of our works but by the gift of God, His mercy.

Personally, I have tried to balance the scale of “self effort” and “grace” as the equation for God’s mercy. (“I must be in this and committed as much as He is.”) My efforts have been futile. Is not our faith a gift of God as well? Equally, are not our good deeds, God’s work – through us, and rightly so also His gift?

I am left with = The highest offering I can give to God is my gratitude. Instead of living a life today because of how I might live in my tomorrow, my “tomorrow” will reflect how I live in my life today. I may sound like I am talking in circles, 🙂 but that is, because, (I believe), the argument of faith versus works is a circular argument. If you truly believe in something, your life will reflect that truth.

Dmcal you ask these questions of me. I will try to answer them the best I can:

1. Do you keep the feasts listed within the Torah and is the keeping of them mandatory for salvation along with faith in Christ?

Yes I do keep them, to the best of my ability. Of course not to the extent the disciples kept them before the destruction of the Temple were they would go to observe them like on Acts 2 on Shavuot. Does doing that save me? No, I have been saved by my husband Yeshua’s saving action. I observe them because He did, because He gave them to Israel to observe, because they all have a meaning; they are all sacred rehearsals, micra Kodesh is what they are called in Hebrew. We are rehearsing Yah’s 7 set apart days. The spring ones have been fulfilled, the fall ones are yet to be fulfilled. They are a joy to observe, even Yom Kipur that involves fasting and prayer because it brings me that much closer to my beloved who took pity on me and picked me up and washed me.

2. Do you abstain from the foods that are listed as unclean in the Torah and is this practice mandatory for salvation along with faith in Christ?

I abstain from all unclean foods listed in Lev 11, specially the one mentioned again in Isa 66, pork. This last one is sneaked in products and sometimes not listed on the label, but I try. I will mention that before Yeshua gave Moses Yah’s Torah for His people Israel Noah already knew the difference between clean and unclean animals as per Gen 7; there were 7 pairs of clean animals (14 each) versus only 1 pair of unclean one (1 each). Again, abstaining from eating animals that Yah never considered food for humans in the first place does not bring me salvation but I know that is what pleases Him. There are some expectations He has for His people, Can you imagine a household were the wife puts pork and shell fish on the table but the husband does not even wants the stuff under his roof?

3. Are the keeping of the holy days listed in the Torah mandatory for salvation along with faith in Christ?

Again you use the term ‘mandatory’ for salvation. All that is needed for salvation is faith and acceptance of Yeshua’s sacrifice, which is modeled in an old Jewish wedding when the bride accepts the cup of wine from the groom. When I received my call from Yah one of the first things He asked me was to keep His Sabbath and feasts which I have been trying to do since. I know when Yeshua returns I will continue to do it in His presence.

Hope these answers clarify things for you. I understand your concern for Yah’s word; I am myself very zealous for all His word, from Genesis to Revelation.
Shalom

This is a very helpful and informative exchange between you, Al, Dmcal and others.

Since my understand of this issue (Law vs. Grace and related issues) is more closely reflected in your comments/replies – I want to share some thoughts with you, asking for your thoughtful reply. Others sure can. and may, and I hope offer comments.

I am very familiar with Dmcal’s theology, eschatology and overall interpretations of Scripture. There is nothing new or exciting for me in his evangelical dogma.

Dogma: “serves as part of the primary basis of a belief system, and it cannot be changed or discarded without affecting the very system’s paradigm, or the ideology itself. The term can refer to acceptable opinions of philosophers or philosophical schools, religion…or issued decision…”

“You are marvelous!” (Spoken with a Billy Crystal (Jew) imitation of Ricardo Montalbán).

“You truly are ~ marvelous.” (Crystal imitation.)

Shofar, you made the following statement –

“As I have repeated many times, I don’t believe salvation can be obtained by works. However the works or fruits of those saved should follow their salvation…Enter Heb 8:6-12 which as many of the apostle’s writings quotes from the Tanach (“OT”), in this case Jer 31:31-34: the new bride that still is Judah and Israel, plus those Gentiles grafted into Israel (Rom 11), now receives the same wedding contract as before, Yah’s Torah, only this time is being written in the heart of the bride. This is the renewed covenant that required rewriting. Nothing has changed regarding the content of the wife’s and groom’s expectations; the expectations remain…”

My polite points of contention (passionate) with what you are suggesting above – as well as what I found in the 119 Ministries presentation messages is very long.

Would you agree that something very important did change, regarding the said context – because of what He did on First Fruits, then sending The Spirit (John 16:13) to those who gathered in the upper room on Pentecost (Act chapter 2) and to those that follow after Him today?

Throughout Scripture seven is the number particularly associated with the Holy Spirit. (The rainbow, post flood – as His promise, has 7 colors too!)

Revelation 4:5 speaks of “the seven Spirits of God.”

In Isaiah 11:1–2 the prophet foreshows how the Holy Spirit will set apart Jesus as the Messiah (the Anointed One). On Pentecost the Spirit came, filling them and able to fill us.

Isaiah 11:2-3, lists seven very distinct aspects of the Holy Spirit: the Spirit of the LORD (the Spirit that speaks in the first person as God); the Spirit of wisdom; the Spirit of understanding; the Spirit of counsel; the Spirit of might; the Spirit of knowledge; the Spirit of the fear of the Lord.

In each stage of redemption, the Holy Spirit brings a vital and distinctive role.

The Spirit is rightly called both “the Spirit of grace” and “the Spirit of glory”—grace, that is, that leads to Glory. See Hebrews 10:29 and 1st Peter 4:14.

Moses is never referred to as being filled with The Spirit. Moses heard the voice of Almighty God, experienced His Glory, and was one of the most extraordinary leaders of the age, thank you LORD. Can’t wait to meet him.

So then, where is Holy Spirit in your replies?

I don’t see such a reference – Zero, zip. Same can said for 199 Ministries and for Dmcal. Maybe I missed those references?

Jesus said, “But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth” (John 4:23-24).

There is no reference to Torah keeping in the above statement.

Yes, truth is the Word; “I am the way, the truth and the life.”

I think the Word is more than Torah as some think, as referencing the word – Torah.

The Word made flesh is inclusive of Leviticus, Deut., Psalms, Proverbs, Books of the Prophets and all Scriptures. It is inclusive of John chapter 1 and 1st John. The Word is described in part within Proverbs chapter 8.

We also see this verse – “Every writing which is written by The Spirit is profitable for teaching, for correction, for direction and for a course in righteousness…” (2nd Timothy 3:16).

Key point: What changed and is so unique? Our Lord sent the Spirit of Truth (John 16:13).

“Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.…”(1st Corinthians 3:16).

Now this long but very insightful passage from Romans.

Please notice the “Torah of the Spirit” – which is much more alive and active than saying, communicating “Torah” – don’t you think?

“Therefore, there is no longer any condemnation awaiting those who are in union with the Messiah Yeshua. Why?

Because the Torah of the Spirit, which produces this life in union with Messiah Yeshua, has set me free from the “Torah” of sin and death. For what the Torah could not do by itself, because it lacked the power to make the old nature cooperate, God did by sending his own Son as a human being with a nature like our own sinful one [but without sin].

God did this in order to deal with sin, and in so doing he executed the punishment against sin in human nature, so that the just requirement of the Torah might be fulfilled in us who do not run our lives according to what our old nature wants but according to what the Spirit wants.

For those who identify with their old nature set their minds on the things of the old nature, but those who identify with the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. Having one’s mind controlled by the old nature is death, but having one’s mind controlled by the Spirit is life and shalom. For the mind controlled by the old nature is hostile to God, because it does not submit itself to God’s Torah — indeed, it cannot. Thus, those who identify with their old nature cannot please God.

But you, you do not identify with your old nature but with the Spirit — provided the Spirit of God is living inside you, for anyone who doesn’t have the Spirit of the Messiah doesn’t belong to him. However, if the Messiah is in you, then, on the one hand, the body is dead because of sin; but, on the other hand, the Spirit is giving life because God considers you righteous…

So then, brothers, we don’t owe a thing to our old nature that would require us to live according to our old nature. For if you live according to your old nature, you will certainly die; but if, by the Spirit, you keep putting to death the practices of the body, you will live.

All who are led by God’s Spirit are God’s sons. For you did not receive a spirit of slavery to bring you back again into fear; on the contrary, you received the Spirit, who makes us sons and by whose power we cry out, “Abba!” (that is, “Dear Father!”).

The Spirit himself bears witness with our own spirits that we are children of God; and if we are children, then we are also heirs, heirs of God and joint-heirs with the Messiah — provided we are suffering with him in order also to be glorified with him” (Romans 8:1-17, Complete Jewish Bible Translation).

A couple of more supporting references:

The will of the LORD is to be filled with the Spirit, not being filled with “Torah” (Ephesians 5:17-18).

119 Ministries is big on being filling with Torah. But, I don’t find Torah without Spirit in any post Pentecost Scriptures (including the writings of Peter, James or John). I do find being washed by the Word, and filled by the Spirit.

The Spirit leads us to all truth (Scriptures) because, “The hearing ear and the seeing eye, The LORD has made them both” (Proverbs 20:12, NKJV).

So then – I don’t see many (if any) references to the presences, work, or manifestation of The Holy Spirit in this ongoing discourse (Law vs. Grace) and want to add this long essay.

Thoughts?

BTW – as for keeping certain requirements, what do you think of this account from as close to a Hebrew translation as I can find –

“With the following iggeret: “From the Achim b’Moshiach, Moshiach’s Shlichim and the Zekenim: to the Achim b’Moshiach throughout Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, to those from among the Nations, Shalom!

“Vi-bahlt (since) we heard that certain men had gone out from us, though not having any directives from us, and have given you mitzvot with dvarim unsettling your nefashot (souls), “It was mekabel to us, having come to achdus in mind and having chosen anashim to send to you, along with our beloved chaverim Bar-Nabba and Sha’ul”Anashim who have imperiled their lives for haShem of Moshiach Adoneinu Yehoshua.

“Therefore we have sent Yehudah and Sila, and they too will confirm us in person by word of mouth.

“For it was mekabel to the Ruach Hakodesh and to us to lay no heavier burden upon you who are from the Nations except these necessary things:

“That you non-Jewish ma’aminim hameshichiyim keep away from meat sacrificed to elilim, and dahm, and what is strangled, and zenut. If you are shomer to avoid these, you will do well. Shalom!” (Acts 15:23-29, Orthodox Jewish Bible).

Love of Christ and pease from The Spirit to you, Al and of course Dmcal.

Blessings to you!

“The Torah of Adonai is perfect,
restoring the inner person.
The instruction of Adonai is sure,
making wise the thoughtless.

The precepts of Adonai are right,
rejoicing the heart.
The mitzvah of Adonai is pure,
enlightening the eyes.
The fear of Adonai is clean,
enduring forever.

The rulings of Adonai are true,
they are righteous altogether,
more desirable than gold,
than much fine gold,
also sweeter than honey
or drippings from the honeycomb.
Through them your servant is warned;
in obeying them there is great reward.

Who can discern unintentional sins?

Cleanse me from hidden faults.
Also keep your servant from presumptuous sins,
so that they won’t control me.
Then I will be blameless
and free of great offense.

May the words of my mouth
and the thoughts of my heart
be acceptable in your presence,
Adonai, my Rock and Redeemer” (Psalm 19:8-15).

I think the evidence of the holy spirit was in her CONTENT. even the apostles did not use the term “holy spirit” in every sentence they spoke and wrote. only someone filled with the spirit would speak about the love between the messiah groom and his bride, for example.

“Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they…

And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me: Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name…

“Known to God from eternity are all His works. Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood. For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath…

Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren.

They wrote this letter by them:

The apostles, the elders, and the brethren,

To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia:

Greetings.

Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law” —to whom we gave no such commandment— it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell” (Acts 15, NKJV).

There is no rush, requesting an urgent reply – but seeking some additional insight.

I think this (“Law vs. Grace Issue”) is more about “the Spirit of the Torah” working I the heart/soul of a Believer and not just about following the Torah. Could it be that the Spirit of Torah is The Holy Spirit? I think and believe so.

I also think this passage in Acts offers deeper insights – you know, like “light / darkness” and other spiritual matters.

I know I may offend some people with this comment, but I really do not agree with Paul on what was required of the gentiles……it was much too permissive…all the gentiles had to do was abstain from food offered to idols and from sexual immorality?????

what about requiring them to know the word of God???? to know his will??? to understand the history of the relationship between god and man, and to know the prophecies intended for the current world and for future generations???

according to paul, gentiles were allowed to be stupid as a rock, they did not even have to know the 10 commandments!

that opens the door for murder, slander, cheating, disobedience to parents, greed, etc……and only the romans were told about homosexuality..what about the other churches.

and what is sexual immorality to them? where is it defined for them? in the word of god they do not have to study?

the definition of sin is described in the definition of the law.

and they can worship idols, just not eat the meat?

so for the next 2000 years the church was in darkness, because the people were not required to know ANYTHING….

and before John died, the book of revelation lists the main churches of the time, and 5 out of 7 have sin in them….WHY?…. because they do not even know what sin is….jezebel spirits rule, false doctrines rule, and apathy takes over….

then the catholic church perpetuated this darkness…no one read the bible….just the priests…who told the people whatever they wanted to….

today, most of the gentile church is apostate…….who think all sorts of sin is permissible…..and god will destroy them if they dont repent…but the bible also says that they will not repent……they think they are right..

the easy way is the best way…they do god’s thinking for him…

gays flood churches now, and pastors cheat on their wives….leaders preach prosperity and money instead of the cross and repentance…

how can one repent, if they do not know what law of God they have broken?

I do think, maybe I am wrong, that the instructions also omit having the gentiles receive the holy spirit, and to understand what that means….

.paul explains the gifts but not the baptism of the holy spirit, which is need to understand what may not be taught to them..with out the spirit, they are in darkness too… no discernment….

also discernment is easier when you know something…and are not completely ignorant…

I really think the apostles goofed here….it may have been a human discussion, not a spirit led one. it does NOT say, that after many days of seeking God , that they heard from the holy spirit, and the holy spirit said to forget the law, and just have the gentiles abstain from food offered to idols and sexual immorality.

paul several times stated subjects that were his opinion, and he stated that. forgive me if i seem ignorant here; marianne, are you referring to the gentiles back then only? or to gentiles even to this day?, the seven churches pertains to people now just like back then. when you read about the lord telling those that dwell in thyatira, jesus states that their last works are greater then their first works, then about them not knowing the depths of satan as they speak, and to hold fast what they have & none other burden,; i believe christ is talking to those even today that are saved but lack the ability to understand very well, (like people with autism) as a rude reference point so to say. also about not eating things sacrificed unto idols,that part ( eating things sacrificed unto idols) would only be for people directly in that time. because the new testiment clearly states all things are pure and lawfull (referring to food). but all things are not expedient. which i would interpret; not the best things to do but still lawfull. the laws in the old testament are spoken of in the new, such as fornication, for example. but eating pork according to the new testament are no longer unclean.

John777 – I believe what Marianne and Shofar have been saying (and I am not saying this to speak for them, I am saying this to convey my understanding of what is being said) – is that, yes, correct. The laws of the old covenant – keeping Sabbath, not eating pork, the celebrations / festivals – are no longer required as we now have a new covenant through Jesus Christ.

However – some Christians CHOOSE to keep some or all of the old laws out of their love for Jesus Christ, and though it is not required for salvation, many believe that keeping the old traditions would be pleasing to Him.

It is purely out of love, no points, no required, out of pure love.

Please – for those of you who abide by the old covenant, correct me where I am wrong.

Hi Greg
You wrote: “God the Father says within Jeremiah 31:31-34, that He will make a New Covenant that is different than the one that He made with Israel on Sinai.
However He didn’t provide us with what the specific details were, that would somehow make it different”

We do know the content of the covenant is the same, Torah, that hasn’t changed. It’s the Torah in the heart that makes it different because it’s no longer external to where one like Rabbi Shaul tries and fails sometimes mostly because the flesh is at war within us. I for one can emphasize with him when he declares himself wretched for doing what he does not want to and vice versa. Now as the promise is that we will be able to react in alignment with the Word or Torah as it will form an intrinsic part of us. I believe it’s a process that won’t be completed till Yeshua returns, but He promises the day will come there won’t be any need for one to teach the other because we will all know. Well that is what I understand about Jer 31:31-34.
Shalom

I had made the decision to not attempt to teach and contend on this site, but after reading what you wrote in response to Greg, I just could not help myself. In fact, your response to him is the crux of your problem and which is also what I have been trying to get you to understand.

You said:
“However He didn’t provide us with what the specific details were, that would somehow make it different”

Yes, God did provide us with the specifics of the new covenant! It is the one that we have been trying to make you understand since you made known that you live according to the Torah, the Law that God gave Moses and the Israelites. The covenant of the Law of Moses, which is contained in the Torah, Tanakh, Masoretic text, Miqra or whatever you want to call it, is that first covenant given through Moses to the Israelites, who attempted to gain righteousness by pursuing it through the works of the Law, which could never save them and that because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were by works. That is the covenant that you are attempting to keep and which will have the same affect on you as it did on them, which will end in no salvation.

The new covenant, which you said God didn’t provide specific details about, which is what the New Testament reveals, is the one that comes through faith in Jesus Christ alone without the works of the law accompanying it. The first covenant was required by God, but Israel made into a “do this, do that and do the other thing” in an attempt to work their way into internal life, but they didn’t combine it with faith. Where as the new covenant is believing solely on the finished work of Christ on the cross, that he accomplished everything and we trust in him for our salvation and not in our own efforts to keep feasts, holy days, abstaining from certain foods, etc., etc.. This is what you and many others are hanging on to, that first covenant. Jesus, Yeshua, met the righteous requirements of the law and brought it to its completion. That is, he satisfied God’s requirements regarding the whole law and then nailed that first covenant to the cross as fulfilled, making it obsolete.

What else did he fulfill? The word of God states that “All have sinned and all fall short of the glory of God” and “The reward for sin is death” and that “Unless their is a shedding of blood there is no forgiveness for sin.” We could not shed our own blood to obtain salvation and that because our blood is unrighteous blood, tainted with sin. Without the grace of God through the shed blood of Christ we all deserve death. It is because Christ was without sin and therefore through his righteous blood, being in the flesh as we are, he could pay the penalty on our behalf. The righteous for the unrighteous. Therefore, our salvation is not in the keeping of feasts, holy days, abstaining from foods or by any of the other works written in the law of Moses, but by putting our faith in Jesus Christ as the one who fulfilled everything on our behalf. Anyone who puts themselves under the law to perform works as a means of salvation will not inherit eternal life and that because you are trusting in your own efforts instead of trusting in the finished work of Christ.

You said:
“We do know the content of the covenant is the same, Torah, that hasn’t changed.”

Regarding this Scripture says:

” ‘By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.’ ”

If the new covenant was the same as the old covenant, then there would be no need for a new one. So you see, the old covenant is nothing like the new covenant, as it is completely different, except for the need for having faith.

Old covenant:
Salvation obtained by the observance of the law of Moses with all of its regulations and ordinances when combined with faith.

New covenant:
Salvation obtained by having faith in Christ alone, without the works of the law, as the One who fulfilled the Law of Moses and made the payment for sin by the shedding of his righteous blood.

Should we do good works being in Christ? Most definitely! But not to obtain salvation, but to glorify God and by doing so we also build up our treasures in heaven.

I hope that this gives you a better understanding regarding the two covenants, because if you continue to try to gain salvation through the first covenant, the Torah with its works, it will keep you and anyone else from inheriting eternal life. This is why it is said that Israel stumbled over the stumbling stone. Make sure that you don’t stumble over the same stumbling stone, by trying to keep the law, opposed to trusting in Christ for its fulfillment.

Hi DJ
Rabbi Shaul is often misunderstood. He did declare he is in agreement with all that Torah teaches, Acts, 24:14. He was, by his own admission a Pharisee (Phil 3:5) but of the school of Gamaliel who viewed Torah like his grandfather did, from a more spiritual stance rather than like those from the school of Shamai who were legalistic and tended toward militarism in their views. I think it is sometimes hard for people living in the Western world to reconcile these two views of a Pharisee who believed in and defended Torah but spent quite a bit of time writing about grace and faith. We tend to compartmentalize grace and obedience as two separate things rather than seeing them as complimented each other as James pointed out in 2:8-25.
Shalom

You brought up compartmentalization? That is a little different from “cheep” Grace (Hebrews 10).

But, I want to review the letter written by James, approved by Peter, John and the other disciples, whom the Lord put in leadership positions (Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, Teachers).

The Act 15 message is confirmed within a passage from Revelation, which is included in this long reply.

Acts 15:

“The apostles and the elders gathered to consider this problem. After a long debate, Peter stood up and said to them,

‘Brothers, you know that in the early days God chose me from among you to preach the Good News [Gospel] to the nations [Gentiles]. They heard the Good News [Gospel] from me [my mouth], and they believed. God, who knows the thoughts of everyone [heart], accepted [showed his approval of; testified for] them.

He showed this to us by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he did to us. To God, those people are not different from us.

When they believed, he made their hearts pure [clean].

So now why are you testing God by putting a heavy load around [yoke on] the necks of the Gentile believers [disciples]?

It is a load [yoke] that neither we nor our ancestors [forefathers; fathers] were able [strong enough] to carry [bear].

But we believe that we are saved by the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they are.’

Then the whole group [assembly] became quiet.

They listened to Paul and Barnabas tell about all the [miraculous] signs and miracles [wonders] that God did through them among the Gentiles. After they finished speaking, James said,

‘Brothers, listen to me. Simon has told us how God showed his love for [cared for; intervened with; visited] the Gentiles [Acts 10—11]. For the first time he is accepting [taking; selecting] from among them a people to be his own.The words of the prophets agree with this too:

‘After these things I will return. And I will rebuild the tent of David, which has fallen [C either the David dynasty of kings (the “house of David”), or the nation Israel generally]. But I will rebuild its ruins, and I will set it up [restore it].

Then those people who are left alive [the remnant; L the rest of the people] may ask the Lord for help and the other nations [Gentiles] that belong to me [L who are called by my name], says the Lord, who will make it happen.

And these things have been known for a long time [from long ago; Amos 9:11–12; C a reference to God’s promise that he would restore the “remnant” of Israel and save the Gentiles].’

“So I think [conclude] we should not bother [trouble; cause trouble for] the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead, we should write a letter to them telling them these things:

Stay away from food that has been offered to idols (which makes it unclean) [L polluted by idols],

any kind of sexual sin [or prohibited marriages; C the Greek word could mean any sexual sin, or marriages viewed as incestuous by OT law],

eating animals that have been strangled [C leaving the blood inside, which the OT law prohibited; Gen. 9:4], and

blood [C consuming blood was forbidden in the OT law; Lev. 17:10–12].

They should do these things, because for a long time in every city the law of Moses has been taught [L Moses has been preached/proclaimed; C referring to the Torah (the Law)]. And it is still read in the synagogue every Sabbath day.”

From the apostles and elders, your brothers.

To all the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia:

Greetings!

We have heard that some of our group have come to you and said things that trouble and upset you [unsettle your minds/souls]. But we did not tell [instruct; authorize; order] them to do this. We have all [unanimously; with one accord] agreed to choose some messengers and send them to you with our dear friends [beloved] Barnabas and Paul— people who have given [dedicated; or risked] their lives to serve [L for the name of] our Lord Jesus Christ.

So we are sending Judas and Silas, who will tell you the same things [in person; L through word]. It has pleased the Holy Spirit that you should not have a heavy load [burden] to carry, and we agree.

You need to do only these things: Stay away from any food that has been offered [sacrificed] to idols, eating any animals that have been strangled, and blood, and any kind of sexual sin. If you stay away from these things, you will do well.

When addressing one of 7 Churches in Revelation chapters 2-3, the Lord brings up the same concerns that were written in James’ letter –

The Lord says:

“Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: you have some people there who are clinging to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to set a trap and a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, [to entice them] to eat food that had been sacrificed to idols and to practice lewdness [giving themselves up to sexual vice].

You also have some who in a similar way are clinging to the teaching of the Nicolaitans [those corrupters of the people] which thing I hate.

Repent! Or else I will come to you quickly and fight against them with the sword of My mouth” (Revelation 2:14-16, Expanded Translation).

The Lord does not address “unclean foods” (eating barbecue pork, steamed lobster, crab legs, etc) but the exact same issues presented in the letter, approved by the council (Acts 15). Therefore – what is written in the letter is all sufficient, acceptable as a servant of the Lord.

I just want to close out the thread – when I raised Acts 15 and replying to your comment.

May the Lord continue to bless you (Psalm 20).

This 4th of July, I’ll be having corn on the cob and a pulled barbecue pork sandwich or a Hot Dog, thank you Lord.

Hi Marianne
You would be surprised as how unenlightened people are about spiritual matters. Yes, we have a lot of technology and what not but ignorance reigns for the most part when it comes to Yah’s word. People rather watch some game on TV. Really also when it comes to history, information about other countries and the like people are pretty much in the dark, ditto for Yah’s word. While they might know the Ten Commandments they don’t necessarily read the bible they keep somewhere in their shelves. I have a friend that goes to a Christian church and knows little beyond what she hears from the pulpit when she attends. She has, more than once, told me that she does not understand when it comes to religion. It gets worse in Latin America where people are mostly raised in the Roman church and don’t know much more that what they were taught in catechism. Why in Mexico they even worship the ‘holy death’ a skeleton dressed up as a virgin… How is that different than the pagans vowing to Zeus?
Hey and it’s not just Christians, the Jews too. I remember when I first started on this walk I was sitting at the local beach reading a book about the feasts when a college, a Jew, approached me and seeing the book in my hands became curious as to why I was reading it. In the ensuing conversation it turns out all she knew of Judaism was regarding Yom Kippur (and vaguely). I winded up teaching her about the feats of Yah and even what a shofar was…
Shalom

Dmcal52, AGAIN you misquote me. I was not the one that said what you are up in arms against, it was Greg whom I quoted:
You wrote: “God the Father says within Jeremiah 31:31-34, that He will make a New Covenant that is different than the one that He made with Israel on Sinai.
However He didn’t provide us with what the specific details were, that would somehow make it different”

What I said was: “We do know the content of the covenant is the same, Torah, that hasn’t changed. It’s the Torah in the heart that makes it different… I believe it’s a process that won’t be completed till Yeshua returns, but He promises the day will come there won’t be any need for one to teach the other because we will all know. “

I rest by my answer knowing that as Messiah’s bride, and not just a wedding guest, let alone the false lawless bride of satan, I stand by my husband’s chosen way of life. It is part of the wedding agreement we made, not so I could get married to Him, for He chose me out of grace, but to honor Him and keep my part as a faithful wife that loves Him.

I am not a teacher of scripture and would barely consider myself a student, but I would like to share my understanding of where the New Covenant is explained in scripture by Jesus.

In Mat 5:1-16 Jesus goes up on the mountain and sits down to teach. He lists 9 qualities of those who are blessed and tells us we are the salt of the earth and the light of the world, and what happens when the salt (we) become tasteless, and also tells us the ways for our light to shine.

Then in Mat 5:17-20, Jesus states he did not come to destroy (abolish) the Law or the Prophets – He came to fulfill. And if anyone breaks (annuls) any of these laws, or teaches others to do the same, they shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven. (But, they get in, right?) However, He also states (and I paraphrase) that, in following these Laws, unless our righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, we will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Mat 5:19 NKJV (Who on this earth can do that?) Jesus can, and did. He fulfilled them.

Following in Mat. 5:21-48 Jesus goes on to describe some of the laws of the old covenant stating before each, “You have heard that it was said to those of old …” and then He follows up with, “But I say to you …” and He expounds on the law, rewriting it, (I believe, as it is written in our hearts.)

Continuing in Mat. 6:1-24 Jesus describes many aspects of our lives including how we are to be concerning charity, prayer, forgiveness, fasting, the storing our of treasure and where it lies; to not serve two masters. 6:25-34 He tells us not to worry about our needs today nor of tomorrow.

Mat. 7:1-11 Jesus warns us about judging others, being a hypocrite, what is holy, giving, among other topics, then clearly states in Mat. 7:12 “Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Profits.” (NKJV) Then continues on how to enter the way of life; to beware of false prophets; and how to enter the Kingdom of Heaven in doing everything he has said up to this point. And those who hear these words of His and do not follow them, they will be like fools. (Mat.13-29 NKJV.)

And, never in any of His words does He state that those who follow some of the old covenant traditions, out of love, are doing anything wrong. Those who do, that are here on this blog, I understand do so, out of love, but their faith is in Jesus Christ – and the laws are in their hearts.

So, going back to the beginning, the difference would be whether, when Jesus said He was here to fulfill the old covenant, was it fulfilled when he died on the cross, (I believe so), or will it be fulfilled when He returns?

Dmcal I am just going to give you a scripture for your consideration. Please kindly explain the meaning of it: Isaiah 2:3 Many peoples will go and say,
“Come, let’s go up to the mountain of ADONAI,
to the house of the God of Ya‘akov!
He will teach us about his ways,
and we will walk in his paths.”
For out of Tziyon will go forth Torah,
the word of ADONAI from Yerushalayim.”

“In the last days the mountain of the Lord’s temple will be established
as the highest of the mountains; it will be exalted above the hills, and all nations will stream to it. Many peoples will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the temple of the God of Jacob.
He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths.”
The law will go out from Zion, the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.”

I included verses 2 thru 4 because it is apart of the context. First of all, notice the words, “In the last days,” which would infer a future time. What time in the future that is being referred to can be garnered by the information found in verse 4:

“They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.”

Regarding the verse above, since it is speaking of a time when mankind will beat their weapons into tools for use in agriculture and will no longer train for war, then it is a prophecy yet to be fulfilled, which could only be referring to Christ’s thousand year reign on earh, his millennial kingdom. Also, it is important to understand that being that this is in reference to the millennial period, the peoples of the nations that are being spoken of will be those who made it through that last seven year period and specifically through the last 3 1/2 years and will be those who will repopulate the earth during the millennium. That being said, there will be those who prior to the millenial period will have been resurrected and caught up and so they will already be in their glorified bodies. Those who will beat their weapons into plowshares and pruning hooks will be those who are still in their mortal bodies.

Now I believe that the reason you brought this Scripture up and correct me if I am wrong, is because of the following:

“The law will go out from Zion, the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.”

I’m assuming that by the reference to “The law” that is, “Torah” that you believe it to be referring to the Law of Moses. The word “Torah” is defined as:

So because the word Torah is used does not specifically mean that during the millennium that God is going to revert back to the old covenant of the law that God gave to Moses and the Israelites with its ordinances and regulations. Especially when we have other Scriptures from the Lord that show that the Law of Moses was fulfilled and satisfied by Christ himself and has been rendered obsolete. Not to mention all of Paul’s writings showing that under this new covenant we are saved by grace through faith apart from observing the law. Therefore, the law and the teachings that will go out must be instructions other than the Law of Moses.

Today Christians walk in his paths, but not by observance to the Law of Moses, but by following Christ, for Scripture says:

“So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.”

So, according to the Scripture above, all believers should be dead to the law, being released from it, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. The written code is another designation referring to the law of Moses.

you cannot understand that the spirit of the law will always be alive, and that is what will go forth, not just words on paper….

the law is alive, because Yeshua IS the Word.

when the Lord returns, the commandments will still be obeyed, and those who don”t come to the feast of tabernacles will be punished.

Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. Zach 14:16

17 If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, they will have no rain.

18 If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The Lord will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.

19 This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.

the only part cancelled in the old covenant was the sacrifice for sins, and ordinances of man that added to the Torah. the Torah is a book of civil law, and governs the behavior of man toward man….it is just an elaboration of the 10 commandments……

and AGAIN………..it is NOT the law that saves us, but we will obey God’s law that he enforces in his millennial kingdom…

that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’ –just as I have received authority from my Father. Rev 2:27

If the Lord is ruling with an iron scepter, it implies he is enforcing something…and that will be his will and his ways.

I know you were writing Shofar, but I thought I would take the scriptures you were interpreting and send this.

Romans 7:4-6
4 “And now, my brothers, you also have become dead to Torah (38) by the body of Mashiyach; that you might be joined to another, (even) to him who rose from the dead, and might yield fruits to Elohim.
5 ”For while we were in the flesh, the emotions of sin which are (listed) by Torah, were active in our members that we should bear fruits to death”.
6 “But now we are absolved from Torah and are dead to that which held us in its grasp: that we might from now on serve in the newness of the spirit and not in the oldness of the letter”. (39)

(38) “Dead to Torah” refers to being dead to the penalty for sin, which is death, followed by destruction. The believer sins (misses the mark) as anyone else does; however, those who are in Mashiyach “ have atonement in him. From the beginning (Gen. 3:15) YHWH established a defense for His people against haSatan (the adversary). To be “in” Mashiyach means to live a life pleasing to YHWH and NOT break Torah”. “Those who think that they can repeatedly break Torah without consequence, because Mashiyach died for them are deceived. To “live in the spirit” means that the Spirit of Mashiyach is training up his followers so they can put away the carnal desires of the weak flesh, and that they are overcomers of the flesh.

(39) “This is because faith in Mashiyach and Torah observance brings eternal life, but the consequence of sin is death. It does not mean Torah is “released” because, with our without Mashiyach, the penalty for willful sin still remains. If the penalty for sin remains, the Torah also remains. The “oldness of the letter” speaks of old religious ways which do not recognize Mashiayach as bringing the Living Word of YHWH to mankind. Y’shua brought the correct understanding of Torah which is to be written upon the heart, so we don’t continue in sin. Some might say they have Faith and claim to be “Believers,” but if they continue in sin their faith/belief is irrelevant.”

This was taken verbatim from the ARAMAIC ENGLISH NEW TESTAMENT –Netzari Press

Warnings concerning the misunderstanding of Paul’s writings:

2Pet 3:16

(KJV) As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest (or twist), as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Matt 7:21-23

Not every one that says unto Me, Master, Master, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that does the will of my Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Master, Master, have we not prophesied in your name, cast out demons in your name, and done many wonders in your name?
23 (KJV) And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you: depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Hi Denise you ended your post with a question: “So, going back to the beginning, the difference would be whether, when Jesus said He was here to fulfill the old covenant, was it fulfilled when he died on the cross, (I believe so), or will it be fulfilled when He returns?”
I don’t pretend to have your answer but to even try I think we need to review the meaning of ‘fulfill’ in a Hebraic manner, which among rabbis regarding a discussion about Torah (and this was a discussion about Torah in Mat 5) meant to give Torah its complete or full explanation or meaning. Yeshua would know Torah perfectly being the ultimate rabbi and having Himself handed Torah to Moses for His congregation Israel to observe as His bride. He did keep the part of Torah that pertained to a Jewish male, not all of it, as nobody was ever expected to keep it all. He was opposed to the legalistic perversion of Torah that men have done thus ‘destroying’ it.

Having said that there aspects of the actual wedding with His bride (not of Torah) that of course have yet to come to pass. During the last supper or Passover Seder that He had with His disciples He said He would not drink the last cup. This is symbolic of an ancient Jewish wedding when the groom would not have that last cup till after He came back for His bride. Then He and she would drink that fourth cup. Beyond that there are the three fall annual sacred feasts of Yah that have yet to be fulfilled and are also called in scripture holly rehearsal times. These the disciples kept on observing after His death and resurrection. Actually it seems they continued observing all of them including Shavuot, which is what they were doing at the house of prayer or Temple when the received the Ruach or Holly Spirit of Yah. All 7 feasts play important prophetic pictures of Yah’s plan and the disciples kept them not to gain salvation at all but because they were saved, loved Yeshua and followed His steps or The Way.
Shalom

It is easy to see that no matter what is said, it will not be enough for our Christian brothers and sisters. The topics discussed become specific which are approached from two different mindsets. It is to the point that if a scripture doesn’t have the term Torah-law-commandments-etc. in it, then something else is being discussed. Those of a Hebrew perspective (how scripture was given and written) understand this. Those of a Greek understanding insert their Gentile understanding of things.

-The Hebraic mindset is that which says that Yah is foundational (the One that creates) and taught the full truth from the beginning from which the truth at the end comes from.

-The Greek Gentile mindset which says that things are in a constant state of change (evolving) with Yah, and that what was given in the beginning was done away with, causing everything to become totally different at the end. That Yah fundamentally changed everything, breaking His own Word (which is impossible). That man was never to look back from that point on. HaSatan then taking occasion at that point, mixing the Word of Yah with lies and deceit, causing man to begin to feed on the tree of the knowledge of good AND evil (again), mixing the two into one, which accounts for the paganism and sin that is rampant in the Christian Church. Understanding that HaSatan is always there to pervert the Word to any that will listen. To you who claim to be teachers, who teach lawlessness, which spirit do you believe is telling you to do that? One who teaches lawlessness is in opposition (antithetical) to the Lawgiver-Messiah Yahshua.

During the reign of the Roman Emperor Constantine, these changes became the dictates of the then Christian world and so it has been to this day. Previously to this, the true Gentile believer’s (actually Israel) sought (if you will) to walk in the way of their Jewish teachers and shepherds. The historical record bears all of this out.

This is why there will never be any resolution to these questions, until Yah brings clarity and sight to the blind.

Malachi 3:6 & 22-24 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
6
“But because I, Adonai, do not change,
you sons of Ya‘akov will not be destroyed.

22
(4:4) “Remember the Torah of Moshe my servant,
which I enjoined on him at Horev,
laws and rulings for all Isra’el.

23
(4:5) Look, I will send to you
Eliyahu the prophet
before the coming of the great
and terrible Day of Adonai.

24
(4:6) He will turn the hearts of the fathers to the children
and the hearts of the children to their fathers;
otherwise I will come and strike the land
with complete destruction.”

[Look, I will send to you
Eliyahu the prophet
before the coming of the great
and terrible Day of Adonai.]

These are the last (transitional) verses from the Tanakh to the Renewed Covenant scriptures. We are warned to “remember” the Torah-that Yah changes not. But the Christian Church has decided to toss these warnings off to the side and declare that everything changed at the coming of our sin sacrifice, Yahshua.

Zechariah 8:20

20 “Adonai-Tzva’ot says, ‘In the future, peoples and inhabitants of many cities will come; 21 the inhabitants of one city will travel to another and say, “We must go to ask Adonai’s favor and consult Adonai-Tzva’ot. I’ll go too.” 22 Yes, many peoples and powerful nations will come to consult Adonai-Tzva’ot in Yerushalayim and to ask Adonai’s favor.’ 23 Adonai-Tzva’ot says, ‘When that time comes, ten men will take hold — speaking all the languages of the nations — will grab hold of the cloak of a Jew and say, “We want to go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.”’”