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00:34:22 Hi, I am trying to make my own language. I haven't started implementing it but I am still designing.
00:35:08 Did you ever implement your own language except scheme?
00:35:44 Somelauw: What do you want your language to have, that Scheme doesn't already do?
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00:36:02 static typing
00:36:11 Have you played with Typed Racket?
00:36:13 What do you think of it?
00:36:21 no, I haven't
00:36:42 Okay, it's worth playing with, if at least so you can design a type system that exceeds what they provide.
00:37:17 It doesn't have anything scheme doesn't have, but is just different in a couple of ways.
00:37:47 Like m-expressions and some infix syntax.
00:38:33 Okay. Can you articulate how your infix syntax will be sensible? Does it work like Haskell's?
00:39:15 (I'm asking you these questions so you can use other well-thought-out languages as yardsticks. That way, you can build on their advantages.)
00:39:28 Do you want to see an example?
00:39:44 Still designing the syntax so nothing definite.
00:39:45 Go ahead.
00:39:50 http://pastebin.com/5HEZ9Hjy
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00:40:36 What's a ()#?
00:41:00 It's a lambda without parameters.
00:41:33 You can consider it a lazy evaluated expressions.
00:41:45 It sounds like you're implementing it on JVM.
00:42:01 Have you ever played with Scala?
00:42:07 It has generics, type inference, etc.
00:42:15 Yes, I haven't decided where to implement it on.
00:42:23 I do have played with scala.
00:43:20 But I think it has too many syntactic constructs.
00:44:29 Fair enough.
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00:47:54 So what do you think of it?
00:49:40 I also think that scheme's lambda's are a little verbose sometimes.
00:51:02 There are ways to make lambdas look shorter if you're willing to use internal defines.
00:52:30 (map (lambda x (* x x)) '(1 2 3))
00:53:02 vs map(x # x * x, [1, 2, 3])
00:53:20 It's a personal taste thing, but I'm too attached to S-expressions to let them go.
00:53:25 map(x # x * x, [1, 2, 3])
00:53:36 ("vs" was making it look longer)
00:53:47 not sure about scheme, but in CL you could easily do something like: (map ($ (* $0 $0)) '(1 2 3))
00:54:15 xale: There's cut, but you can't duplicate arguments with that.
00:54:37 e.g., (cut * <> <>) takes two arguments; it doesn't take one argument and duplicate it.
00:55:34 xale, I saw something like that in clojure (another functional lisp variant)
00:56:02 But I prefer my own invented lambda-syntax.
00:56:55 But what do you think of my languages's syntax so far, except that it doesn't use s-expressions?
00:57:41 wait, arc has a syntax for that.
00:58:06 [(* _ _)] , iirc
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00:59:36 oh, no
00:59:43 its [* _ _]
00:59:45 :D
01:02:19 Somelauw:
01:02:43 That's just another way to write cut.
01:03:22 But it doesn't allow using a variable twice or nesting lambdas.
01:06:11 Not true.
01:06:21 [* _ _] == (lambda (x) (* x x))
01:06:32 yeah.
01:06:34 [] functions in Arc are always unary; the argument is called _.
01:06:58 although I find (lambda (x) (* x x)) prettier :D
01:07:03 zmv: :-)
01:07:50 it might not be as practical, but it's prettier imho
01:07:51 though if you use lambdas for everything like the pasted example, it is going to be annoying.
01:09:52 that paste looks like some weird mix of haskell and io and java.
01:11:33 Somelauw: you'd be better off just going with haskell/scala
01:13:18 s/scala/clojure/
01:13:57 No, Scala. :-P
01:14:15 Remember, Somelauw was getting away from S-expressions.
01:14:19

jinx?
01:14:43 not only ugly.
01:14:47 it's *fugly*
01:14:58 DT``: You never played jinx as a kid?
01:15:01

zmv, at least It's Not Java®.
01:15:19

cky, maybe, no, I don't even know what is it.
01:15:22 DT``: lolololol
01:16:00 DT``: So, if two people say the same thing at once, then the first person to say jinx will jinx the other person, and they can't say anything. Or something like that.
01:16:08 So how does Arc handle multiple parameters? Currying or tupling?
01:16:17 Somelauw: Using conventional lambdas.
01:16:17 Somelauw: idk
01:16:27

Riastradh, I did it but it just opened emacs, what to do now?
01:20:59 lolol
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01:21:17 Why do I have to open emacs? I don't feel like playing tetris another time. I want to program.
01:21:25 Riastradh: what a shitty emacs you have, huh? you don't even have the most important command!
01:21:38 C-c C-c
01:21:46 Somelauw: because Riastradh is a crazy emacsite :P
01:21:46 What's with all this anti-Emacs trolling?
01:21:55 viper?
01:22:04

#python?
01:22:19 vimpulse to the rescue!!!
01:22:38 :D
01:22:46 Challenge to the vimmers. Port Paredit to vim, and maybe you'll get somewhere.
01:23:10 Note: vi is my normal editor. So don't even say I'm pro-Emacs or anything.
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01:23:28 However, Paredit really is indispensible for Scheme coding.
01:23:38 *zmv* whistles and goes away :P
01:23:46 I've gotta go now, really.
01:23:49 :-P
01:24:11 I've gotta wake up early tomorrow :|
01:24:41 Me too, actually
01:24:45 I will go too.
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01:44:15 cky: re "design a type system that exceeds what they provide" -- what's missing?
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02:00:01 eli: Nothing, in my view.
02:00:21 eli: But if Somelauw wants to do their own thing, then at least it shouldn't be "lesser" than what's already there.
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02:19:43 cky: I was just curious whether you had something concrete. (I have a wishlist for TR, but it's pretty short.)
02:20:22 Also, it's questionable to encourage people to improve on that, you need to be very much on top of your type theory material.
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07:23:31 I'm reading SICP, and installed umb-scheme from my os package managment. But, when I try a 'cond', or even an example of 'cond' that's in the book, I get the error "Error: `cond' is undefined.". Is that because umb-scheme doesn't support cond?
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07:35:11 Perhaps. umb-scheme is not a gentoo package, so I couldn't say.
07:35:25 elon: try mit-scheme or racket.
07:36:03 elon: cond is in r5rs. Perhaps umb-scheme is not a r5rs?
07:40:39 elon: yeah umb-scheme is r4rs
07:40:56 elon: perhaps try a more up-to-date implementation? :P
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10:10:05 Is there a scheme implementation that is dominantly more popular than the rest?
10:11:02 In my household, yes. :-P
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10:51:18 leo2007: racket wants to be all encompassing.
10:51:38 But as to popular, I guess it's as popular as a racket.
10:51:47 XD
10:51:58 pjb: yeah, I am thinking of just use guile.
10:52:33 Something like this: http://www.informatimago.com/images/doctor-vs-racketeer.jpg
10:52:39 leo2007: for emacs support, both guile and racket have geiser
10:52:57 leo2007: depends on what you want to do.
10:53:08 learn scheme
10:53:17 Then I'd advise racket.
10:53:37 what's wrong with guile?
10:54:02 What's good with DrScheme?
10:55:27 pjb: leo2007 is an emacs guy
10:55:41 so DrRacket is less of a salespitch
10:57:25 Well racketers have a salespitch too.
10:58:24 You seen in this barrio, you need some protection. We will protect you, for a price. No, there's no competition. See your neighbor didn't want any protection, and look what happened to him.
10:58:45 nonon, that is racketeers
10:59:24 leo2007: So if I'm advising DrRacket, it's not entirely from my free will. If it was only me, I'd advise DrScheme. But I don't have a choice.
11:00:26 leo2007: its not such a big commitment to try both. What book do you plan on following?
11:00:46 sicp and seasoned schemer, two books I bought.
11:02:06 so any serious implementation should be fine. MIT scheme is another one that is often used by people following sicp, istr there is some support package.
11:02:40 leo2007: have you used SLIME / Common-Lisp?
11:02:46 does guile count as serious implementation?
11:02:50 sure
11:02:53 bremner: common lisp.
11:03:31 so if you are used to SLIME (CL mode for emacs), then I highly recommend geiser.
11:03:46 which only supports guile and racket atm
11:03:57 bremner: yeah, I have it installed already.
11:04:31 racket's documentation seems much better than guile's.
11:05:33 What an excellent opportunity to contribute to a free software project then. ;-)
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11:06:12 fds: not while learning
11:06:17 But seriously, what's wrong with the Guile docs? I'd love to improve them one day, but I still haven't finished reading them yet. :-P
11:06:57 Well, that depends, while learning can be a good time to notice what isn't explained clearly for people who don't come from a position of prior knowledge
11:07:12 fds: I looked at this page http://docs.racket-lang.org/ and was impressed.
11:08:26 fds: OK, I'll be taking notes and maybe ask questions on the mailing list.
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11:09:28 That sounds good. There's also #guile if you're not sure something is worthy of the mailing list or if you want to clarify the issue before sending the mail, &c. :-)
11:09:38 (But, I've just noticed that you're there already.)
11:09:50 yeah
11:10:25 I have been meaning to learn scheme and put it off till now.
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12:58:34 hello
12:59:04 what will i get after reading SICP ?
12:59:56 A gold star?
13:00:28 fds, i mean about experience , what will SICP learn me?
13:02:37 You can look at the contents to see what's covered in the book. But my feeling is that your question is too vague to have a meaningful answer.
13:02:57 SICP isn't really that magical, it's just a good book
13:03:35 If you enjoy reading good books about computation, read SICP; if you don't, don't. It probably won't transform your life either way.
13:04:40 Of course, there are others who surely disagree with me. :-)
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13:21:20 which scheme implementation is well tested on OSX?
13:22:26 racket seems to put some effort into it. (I'm not pimping racket, its just all I know about)
13:23:05 bremner: thanks. guile currently has problems building.
13:23:26 well, OS/X is not GNU
13:26:22 racket seems to have a good reputation too.
13:26:30 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/459323/what-is-the-best-scheme-or-lisp-implementation-for-os-x
13:26:30 http://tinyurl.com/3glh7tv
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16:01:29 Greetings. This is my first day of scheme and I have a newb question. How do I call an anonymous lambda function recursivly ?
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16:03:05 Heh, I'm not sure if that's really a newb question, but I think the answer you're looking for is the ``Y combinator''
16:03:32 I don't know though..
16:03:36 I'm not an expert
16:03:59 Not sure what that is, going to check it out.
16:04:00 Basically, it isn't trivial
16:04:22 I would have thought it would be trivial.
16:06:20 Well, there are many trivial forms of recursion or iteration, for any practical purpose.
16:07:36 I am not used to thinking in recursion since I have only learned imperative languages until this point.
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16:07:53 Thats a skill that needs to be trained, and thats what I am doing :)
16:08:16 Qauzzix: If it's truly anonymous, it has no name. Without a name, how would you refer to it?
16:08:59 I recommend reading `The Little Schemer'. :-)
16:09:16 yes, TLS is great and even covers the Y combinator
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16:14:36 sjamaan: There could be a reserved name for it, there are ways to implement a thing like that thou in theory you cant, thats why I ask.
16:15:07 Qauzzix: Scheme doesn't have reserved names :)
16:15:19 sjamaan: As I said, this is my first day of scheme :)
16:16:31 Anyway, the Y combinator is a trick that requires you to change your procedure a bit. It will pass your procedure to itself, which then returns a new procedure that performs the calculation given its input
16:17:14 So effectively it's bound to a name (but only internally to the procedure) by argument passing
16:19:25 Intresting solution. Thanks.
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16:20:23 Think I will play alittle more with the basics before I start thinking about this :)
16:20:41 Qauzzix: it is probably easier to use a named procedure
16:20:54 The Little Schemer is a great book to learn how to think in recursion
16:23:26 C-Keen: Yebb, it is indeed, it was more of a curiosity then anything else.
16:24:14 But I KNOW this is a newb question. When I have defined a function by combining functions, how do I actually call it?
16:24:29 Or rather, how do I invoke a procedure that is returned.
16:24:51 Qauzzix: the question is a valid and good one
16:26:58 Is using eval the only way, found a way to use that. Not sure if thats the right way to do it.
16:27:15 No, you can just put it in a `function position'
16:27:35 You shouldn't be using eval
16:28:04 rudybot: ((lambda (x) (lambda () (+ 1 x))) 3)
16:28:04 fds: your sandbox is ready
16:28:04 fds: ; Value: #
16:28:08 Oops
16:28:17 rudybot: (((lambda (x) (lambda () (+ 1 x))) 3))
16:28:17 fds: ; Value: 4
16:29:23 Brackets are very important in Scheme, they control evaluation. :-)
16:29:54 I suppose they control evaluation in every language, but, moreso in Scheme. They aren't just for grouping
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16:37:51 Is there a simpler way then using map to apply a lambda to a list?
16:38:14 What's not simple about that?
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16:38:36 map is the simplest way of doing what map does. Which is apply a procedure to every element of a list.
16:38:59 Obviously you can apply a procedure to a whole list by just doing (proc lst)
16:39:01 :-P
16:39:03 But what if I only want to apply an atom to an lambda?
16:39:35 an lambda?
16:39:41 a lambda
16:39:42 like an hero?
16:39:59 rudybot: ((lambda (x) (+ 1 x)) 2)
16:39:59 fds: ; Value: 3
16:40:04 Like that?
16:40:27 rudybot: ((lambda (x) x) '(a list of atoms))
16:40:27 fds: ; Value: (a list of atoms)
16:40:38 That applies a lambda expression to a list. :-)
16:40:49 Sorry, I kinda ignored all the lines talking to rustybot. Stupid me.
16:41:17 Heh, rustybot. But yes, you should pay attention to them too. :-D
16:41:34 I think that a line of code is worth a thousand words, or something like that.
16:41:49 Agreed.
16:42:18 I ignored them because I just thought you were talking to another person, without even giving it a single thought
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16:42:54 An easy mistake to make, but you'll soon get used to it. rudybot is one of the most useful members of the channel. :-)
16:43:08 rudybot: Aren't you?
16:43:08 fds: I suppose they control evaluation in every language, but, moreso in Scheme. They aren't just for grouping
16:43:15 Hey, I just said that!
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16:58:01 Ok, I am still just playing around with the basics. Starting with simple statements and complicating them. But I cant understand why this dosn't work -> http://pastebin.com/FBUKzhtK
16:59:16 Because your map statement doesn't return a procedure?
16:59:38 Just a guess
17:01:17