I have decided to spend some time bringing my practise back to working on Anapanasati. A problem I have discovered is that I am taking the sensation or the physical location I feel the breath to be my meditation object, which is leading to some problems. I'm working through this and it would help me if someone could clarify how they make the breath the meditation object so I could see it from their perspective.

Coming back to the Buddha's initial instructions, I read it as, when breathing in the meditator is to know they are breathing in, when breathing out, the meditator is to know they are breathing out. Discerning the in and out breaths. Does this mean that mentally I am to just be aware, "this is the in breath" (I don't mean noting, just as in being aware of it as the in the breath), and then the same for the out breath? A problem I seem to have is that I begin like this, over the area I feel the breath, but seem to at some point end up in a state where I am being aware that "This point here, this is my in breath", and the area of sensation takes over as object. I am trying to somehow find the middle ground whereby I use the sensation to discern the breathing, but to not take that sensation as the object.

Another question, more a curiosity. If the concept of breath is the mediation object and not the sensation. Does this mean the breath is a mind object?

The sutta seems to leave it up to the individual to decide which object to use. What you decide to do depends on what exactly you are trying to do with the breath. Indeed, as you observe, it is possible to focus on sensations (such as the breath at the nostrils) or on the overall awareness, which is more conceptual. The latter is favoured by teachers such as Ajahn Brahm, so if that's the way you want to head you may find his instructions useful: http://www.dharmaweb.org/index.php/The_ ... rahmavamso

When you focus on the breath, you focus on the experience of the breath happening now. You experience "that which tells you what the breath is doing", whether it is going in or out or in between. Some teachers say to watch the breath at the tip of the nose, some say to watch it at the abdomen and some say to move it here and then move it there. I have found through experience that it does not matter where you watch the breath. In fact, it is best not to locate the breath anywhere! If you locate the breath at the tip of your nose, then it becomes nose awareness, not breath awareness; and if you locate it at your abdomen, then it becomes abdomen awareness. Just ask yourself the question right now "Am I breathing in or am I breathing out?" How do you know? There! That experience which tells you what the breath is doing, that is what you focus on in breath meditation. Let go of concern about where this experience is located; just focus on the experience itself.

PS, the first few chapters of Ajahn Brahm's book, Mindfulness, Bliss, and Beyond, can be downloaded here: http://www.holybooks.com/mindfulness-bl ... -handbook/That PDF used to be on the BSWA website, but I can't find it there any more. There is more detail in those chapters than the link I gave above.

Meditation teaches you the power of your perceptions. You come to see how the labels you apply to things, the images with which you visualize things, have a huge influence over what you see, how they can weigh you down with suffering and stress. As the meditation develops, though, it gives you the tools you need to gain freedom from that influence.

From your post, T, it isn't clear who you have been practicing under and what the difficulty is that you are experiencing.In my experience of using anapana-sati to develop samadhi, its normal to go through difficulties. The object itself is as slippery as an eel, hindrances manifest, aches & pains and then once one feels oneself getting a handle on the object - it disappears!The method that I have used for anapana involves placing one's attention in the area below the nostrils and observing the sensation of the in-breath and out-breath. No counting, no 'bud-dho' mantra, no conceptualization. Just awareness of the touch of the breath.kind regards,

Ben

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

From your post, T, it isn't clear who you have been practicing under and what the difficulty is that you are experiencing.In my experience of using anapana-sati to develop samadhi, its normal to go through difficulties. The object itself is as slippery as an eel, hindrances manifest, aches & pains and then once one feels oneself getting a handle on the object - it disappears!The method that I have used for anapana involves placing one's attention in the area below the nostrils and observing the sensation of the in-breath and out-breath. No counting, no 'bud-dho' mantra, no conceptualization. Just awareness of the touch of the breath.kind regards,

Ben

Hi Ben

This is similar to the same method I am using. I am following the instructions in Knowing & Seeing by P.A Sayadaw. Being aware of the in-breath and then aware of the out breath, is this the same as the awareness of the sensations?

Yeah, if you are observing the 'touch' feeling of the air against the skin as the breath goes in and comes out, then yes, you are observing the sensation of breathing at that spot.

You know, it might be worthwhile for you to get advice from a more advanced student of Pa Auk Sayadaw to help you with your current difficulties. Keep in mind that all meditation objects/techniques present similar or different difficulties. Don't be too eager to change horses unless you've spent a long time with the one approach.kind regards

Ben

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Ven. Rahula, emerging from his seclusion in the late afternoon, went to the Blessed One and, having bowed down, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to him, "How, lord, is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing to be developed & pursued so as to be of great fruit, of great benefit?"

"Rahula, {any form whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every form is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.' There are these five properties, Rahula. Which five? The earth property, the water property, the fire property, the wind property, & the space property.

"And what is the earth property? The earth property can be either internal or external. What is the internal earth property?}[3] Anything internal, within oneself, that's hard, solid, & sustained [by craving]: head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, membranes, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, contents of the stomach, feces, or anything else internal, within oneself, that's hard, solid, and sustained: This is called the internal earth property. Now both the internal earth property & the external earth property are simply earth property. And that should be seen as it actually is present with right discernment: 'This is not mine, this is not me, this is not my self.' When one sees it thus as it actually is present with right discernment, one becomes disenchanted with the earth property and makes the earth property fade from the mind.

"And what is the water property? The water property may be either internal or external. What is the internal water property? Anything internal, belonging to oneself, that's water, watery, & sustained: bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, oil, saliva, mucus, oil-of-the-joints, urine, or anything else internal, within oneself, that's water, watery, & sustained: This is called the internal water property. Now both the internal water property & the external water property are simply water property. And that should be seen as it actually is present with right discernment: 'This is not mine, this is not me, this is not my self.' When one sees it thus as it actually is present with right discernment, one becomes disenchanted with the water property and makes the water property fade from the mind.

"And what is the fire property? The fire property may be either internal or external. What is the internal fire property? Anything internal, belonging to oneself, that's fire, fiery, & sustained: that by which [the body] is warmed, aged, & consumed with fever; and that by which what is eaten, drunk, chewed, & savored gets properly digested; or anything else internal, within oneself, that's fire, fiery, & sustained: This is called the internal fire property. Now both the internal fire property & the external fire property are simply fire property. And that should be seen as it actually is present with right discernment: 'This is not mine, this is not me, this is not my self.' When one sees it thus as it actually is present with right discernment, one becomes disenchanted with the fire property and makes the fire property fade from the mind.

"And what is the wind property? The wind property may be either internal or external. What is the internal wind property? Anything internal, belonging to oneself, that's wind, windy, & sustained: up-going winds, down-going winds, winds in the stomach, winds in the intestines, winds that course through the body, in-and-out breathing, or anything else internal, within oneself, that's wind, windy, & sustained: This is called the internal wind property. Now both the internal wind property & the external wind property are simply wind property. And that should be seen as it actually is present with right discernment: 'This is not mine, this is not me, this is not my self.' When one sees it thus as it actually is present with right discernment, one becomes disenchanted with the wind property and makes the wind property fade from the mind.

"And what is the space property? The space property may be either internal or external. What is the internal space property? Anything internal, belonging to oneself, that's space, spatial, & sustained: the holes of the ears, the nostrils, the mouth, the [passage] whereby what is eaten, drunk, consumed, & tasted gets swallowed, and where it collects, and whereby it is excreted from below, or anything else internal, within oneself, that's space, spatial, & sustained: This is called the internal space property. Now both the internal space property & the external space property are simply space property. And that should be seen as it actually is present with right discernment: 'This is not mine, this is not me, this is not my self.' When one sees it thus as it actually is present with right discernment, one becomes disenchanted with the space property and makes the space property fade from the mind.

"Rahula, develop the meditation in tune with earth. For when you are developing the meditation in tune with earth, agreeable & disagreeable sensory impressions that have arisen will not stay in charge of your mind. Just as when people throw what is clean or unclean on the earth — feces, urine, saliva, pus, or blood — the earth is not horrified, humiliated, or disgusted by it; in the same way, when you are developing the meditation in tune with earth, agreeable & disagreeable sensory impressions that have arisen will not stay in charge of your mind.

"Develop the meditation in tune with water. For when you are developing the meditation in tune with water, agreeable & disagreeable sensory impressions that have arisen will not stay in charge of your mind. Just as when people wash what is clean or unclean in water — feces, urine, saliva, pus, or blood — the water is not horrified, humiliated, or disgusted by it; in the same way, when you are developing the meditation in tune with water, agreeable & disagreeable sensory impressions that have arisen will not stay in charge of your mind.

"Develop the meditation in tune with fire. For when you are developing the meditation in tune with fire, agreeable & disagreeable sensory impressions that have arisen will not stay in charge of your mind. Just as when fire burns what is clean or unclean — feces, urine, saliva, pus, or blood — it is not horrified, humiliated, or disgusted by it; in the same way, when you are developing the meditation in tune with fire, agreeable & disagreeable sensory impressions that have arisen will not stay in charge of your mind.

"Develop the meditation in tune with wind. For when you are developing the meditation in tune with wind, agreeable & disagreeable sensory impressions that have arisen will not stay in charge of your mind. Just as when wind blows what is clean or unclean — feces, urine, saliva, pus, or blood — it is not horrified, humiliated, or disgusted by it; in the same way, when you are developing the meditation in tune with wind, agreeable & disagreeable sensory impressions that have arisen will not stay in charge of your mind.

"Develop the meditation in tune with space. For when you are developing the meditation in tune with space, agreeable & disagreeable sensory impressions that have arisen will not stay in charge of your mind. Just as space is not established anywhere, in the same way, when you are developing the meditation in tune with space, agreeable & disagreeable sensory impressions that have arisen will not stay in charge of your mind.

"Develop the meditation of good will. For when you are developing the meditation of good will, ill-will will be abandoned.

"Develop the meditation of compassion. For when you are developing the meditation of compassion, cruelty will be abandoned.

"Develop the meditation of appreciation. For when you are developing the meditation of appreciation, resentment will be abandoned.

"Develop the meditation of equanimity. For when you are developing the meditation of equanimity, irritation will be abandoned.

"Develop the meditation of the unattractive. For when you are developing the meditation of the unattractive, passion will be abandoned.

"Develop the meditation of the perception of inconstancy. For when you are developing the meditation of the perception of inconstancy, the conceit 'I am' will be abandoned.

"Develop the meditation of mindfulness of in-&-out breathing. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit.

"And how, Rahula, is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to be of great fruit, of great benefit?

"There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore.[4] Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out.

"[1] Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long.' [2] Or breathing in short, he discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, he discerns, 'I am breathing out short.' [3] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the entire body.' [4] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.'

"[5] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to rapture.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to rapture.' [6] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to pleasure.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to pleasure.' [7] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to mental fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to mental fabrication.' [8] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming mental fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming mental fabrication.'

"[9] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the mind.' [10] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in satisfying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out satisfying the mind.' [11] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in steadying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out steadying the mind.' [12] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in releasing the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out releasing the mind.'

"[13] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on inconstancy.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on inconstancy.' [14] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on dispassion.'[5] He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on dispassion.' [15] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on cessation.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on cessation.' [16] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on relinquishment.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on relinquishment.'

"This, Rahula, is how mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is developed & pursued so as to be of great fruit, of great benefit.

"When mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is developed & pursued in this way, even one's final in-breaths & out-breaths are known as they cease, not unknown."[6]

That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, Ven. Rahula delighted in the Blessed One's words.

I found that an interesting answer on the Blessed One's part.

Metta,Retro.

If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding: Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)

Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7

Hi Retro,Can you explain how what I said is the opposite of what the Buddha said?Thanks

Ben

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

"agreeable & disagreeable sensory impression" is the key, we easy create a perception of breath. Like in this sutta as well as in the essay of Bhikkhu Thansissaro it seems to be oppostite to the idea of "Don't be too eager to change horses unless you've spent a long time with the one approach." It seems, maybe just misunderstood.

hanzze_ wrote:"agreeable & disagreeable sensory impression" is the key, we easy create a perception of breath. Like in this sutta as well as in the essay of Bhikkhu Thansissaro it seems to be oppostite to the idea of "Don't be too eager to change horses unless you've spent a long time with the one approach." It seems, maybe just misunderstood.

Thank you but I was asking Retro.

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

I meant that in response to the question on how to cultivate with respect to one mental object (i.e. the breath), the Buddha actually broadened the question beyond Rahula's stated intention to in fact teach a plenitude of "meditation objects", and by doing so, suggesting to Rahula that he shouldn't be confined and restricted in terms of the specific mode of cultivation or technique. To use the simile Genkaku used to use, it is openly allowing for the digging of many holes.

Whereas on the other hand, you seem to suggest (as many do) that digging a single deep hole is the way to go, and not until that hole is deep should other holes be considered.

There's no right or wrong here... I just find the different emphasis and perspectives of interest.

Metta,Retro.

If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding: Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)

Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7

Hi Retro,For sure.That sutta is actually one of my favourites - not that makes me any more qualified than the next person to interpret it.

A clarification...I think anyone who practices meditation has a number of meditative practices that they rely on a regular and semi-regular basis. My own primary practice is vedanapassana and I incorporate metta bhavana into every sitting and from time to time - anapana-sati to develop samadhi. And sometimes I practice the ten recollections. My advice to T is, as someone who appears to be setting off on his meditative 'career' to give the particular approach he is using, ie: the instructions given by Pa Auk Sayadaw, a fair go and to also seek guidance for his present difficulties from an experienced practitioner within the Pa Auk Sayadaw 'tradition'. Anyway, I hope I've made myself a little clearer.And I apologize for Hanzze for being brusque.kind regards,

Ben

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding: Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)

Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7

Ben wrote:Yeah, if you are observing the 'touch' feeling of the air against the skin as the breath goes in and comes out, then yes, you are observing the sensation of breathing at that spot.

I think this is sort of where my question/wondering was occurring, I was thinking "What is 'the breath'" . If I took the sensation of it brushing my skin as the object, then perhaps my object of meditation wasn't the breath but instead the sensation or skin. And whether there is a difference between the breath and the sensation. All this thought led me to trying to be aware of in-breath, out-breath as a concept. I'll spend some time just watching the sensation at the area he states.

My previous experience has always been more similar to the brahm method, so it's a bit strange to be "looking for the breath" at a particular place

...In the beginning, when you first notice the power of perception, you can easily feel overwhelmed by how pervasive it is. Suppose you're focusing on the breath. There comes a point when you begin to wonder whether you're focusing on the breath itself or on your idea of the breath. Once this question arises, the normal reaction is to try to get around the idea to the raw sensation behind it. But if you're really sensitive as you do this, you'll notice that you're simply replacing one caricature of the breath with another, more subtle one. Even the raw sensation of breathing is shaped by how you conceptualize raw sensation. No matter how hard you try to pin down an unfiltered experience of breathing, you still find it shaped by your idea of what breathing actually is. The more you pursue the reality of the breath, the more it recedes like a mirage.

The trick here is to turn this fact to your advantage. After all, you're not meditating to get to the breath. You're meditating to understand the processes leading to suffering so that you can put an end to them. The way you relate to your perceptions is part of these processes, so that's what you want to see. You have to treat your experience of the breath, not as an end in itself, but as a tool for understanding the role of perception in creating suffering and stress.

You do this by de-perception: questioning your assumptions about breathing, deliberately changing those assumptions, and observing what happens as a result. Now, without the proper context, de-perception could easily wander off into random abstractions. So you take the practice of concentration as your context, providing de-perception both with a general direction and with particular tasks that force it to bump up against the operative assumptions that actually shape your experience of the present. ...continue

retrofuturist wrote:I meant that in response to the question on how to cultivate with respect to one mental object (i.e. the breath), the Buddha actually broadened the question beyond Rahula's stated intention to in fact teach a plenitude of "meditation objects"....

However, this discourse was in response to a question from an experienced meditator, "emerging from his seclusion" to ask what to do next:

Ven. Rahula, emerging from his seclusion in the late afternoon, went to the Blessed One and, having bowed down, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to him, "How, lord, is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing to be developed & pursued so as to be of great fruit, of great benefit?"