That's an extremely deluded notion. Casca wasn't devoted to Griffith because he was ruthlessly ambitious. She didn't even know quite how ruthless he was. Only Guts did.

She's seen that he's willing to go to severe lengths to achieve his ambition from the sequence where he's trying to wash away the guilt from giving himself over to Genon in order to gain a war chest. While I don't know how 'Griffith fans' interpret that scene, I'd be willing to give the notion that she's seen his dark side and understands it, to some degree, some credence. But to compare Genon and the Eclipse as being similar beyond that would be wrong in my opinion.

I don't think anyone here has said that it would be plain, or that day 1 post-restoration Casca would go jaunting across the ocean, teeth bared. Guts' own emotions on the subject aren't plain either, but it's pretty clear what he'd like to do to Femto's skull.

That is correct. It's just my own 'thinking out loud' about the situation. I think a lot of their emotions are going to come out when they confront Griffith. While it's no guarantee that the three will ever be in the same place at the same time, I'd think it's safe speculation that at least once before the end, the trio will have a meeting of the minds. Perhaps Rickert wil be there too. It'll be a not so happy Band of the Falcon reunion.

She's seen that he's willing to go to severe lengths to achieve his ambition from the sequence where he's trying to wash away the guilt from giving himself over to Genon in order to gain a war chest.

I don't think that was such a severe length, nor could it be regarded as ruthless. It's also not why Griffith scratches himself.

Read what he says during that scene. Getting railed by an old guy (or railing?) was probably not his cup of tea, but his distress comes from reflecting on the weight on his shoulders, and the burden of the deaths of comrades devoted to his cause. The whole sequence of events started with the death of that boy, who is representative of all the others who have died for Griffith.

You could also check out our podcasts where this we discuss the scene in detail: Episode 45 (around 36 minutes) and Episode 22 (around 50 minutes).

Thanks for the summarization of the scene. I appreciate you taking the time to give me the 411 and I can find absolutely no flaw in your post.

As I sad in the original version of this post before I edited it to reflect your updated comments, I came out of lurking to become a better Berserk fan.

I thought I had a good grasp on the series, but listening to the podcasts I've listened to so far (up to 9, I think, but I intend to eventually listen to them all) and taking the time to read through some old threads, I've learned a lot, not only about the series itself but how to try to look at it differently. I think I should probably go back and read all the volumes again. There are certainly worse things I could be spending my time on.

Are we honestly suggesting she loves the man who cause all of her friends to be killed and raped her to insanity?

Casca clearly doesn't remember that Femto raped her - ok, now she doesn't remember nearly nothing from her past, but I mean that always when she has flashbacks about rape - there are apostles raping her, not Femto (I think it could be like several seconds before passing out - she didn't "record" that act). If recovered Casca was indeed unable to recall that memory, she will be like Rickert - but a lot more devoted to Griffith.

In anticipation of your comments, that she'd remember apostles devouring BoH anyway - there is very large possibility, that she wouldn't belive, that it was caused by Griffith's conscious decision. From her point of view, during the eclipse Griffith was small, mutile cripple rapted by the demons - yes, that demons claimed that it was his wish to sacrifice them, but hello, they were DEMONS, they could simply lied about it, and kill them all just for fun - Casca could even think that Griffith had been killed by them first (giant hand that closed on him). In case of Guts telling her his point of view after bringing her back to reality - does she have to believe him? She could became under the impression, that fighting monsters durin the eclipse drove him insane, and he believed into lies about Griffith's fault just to have some enemy to pursue, some reason to unload his anger and hatred.

Why do I look for so many reasons for Casca to take Griffith's side? Because Griffith means to Casca a lot more than some of you think, and it has nothing in common with shipping Griffith with Casca or justifying his rape on her. Casca loves him not only as a potential partner - she loves him as a father, brother, master (master/apprentice relation), and even as her child (somebody who needs her care). Her feelings for him are way more complicated than for Guts - there is a lot more trust, empathy and general admiration for him than for Guts (who is seen by Casca as somebody agressive and reckless, no matter how she loves him), and so, there is a big possibility that Casca would reason like that, as she come back to the lucid state. She is simply too devoted to his figure as a noble hero, her saviour and master to believe into story like that.

Of course I do not guarantee you, that it all will happen like that - I just find this option the most logic in comparision with Casca's behaviour during Golden Age.

If Casca hadn't developed beyond volume 5, I might agree with you. But she did. She became a different person because she realized her role next to Griffith's side had been compromised, and slowly fell in love with Guts.

But you don't have to take my word for it. Alternatively, you could re-read this portion of the series.

Wow I just woke up (it's 6AM in New Caledonia) and I had the weirdest Berserk "ending" dream.

(I was watching from the sky, levitating) It was after a big battle, Guts is standing, beaten and bloodied up in front of Femto, who toys with him, cuts his good arm off, destroys his good eye, and finally stabs him in he torso, and at that exact moment Casca appears behind Femto in a big jump, crying and wielding a huge sword (?). Femto smirks, starts to turn around to face her but Guts, almost dead just make one step forward, and step/stomp on his cape, blocking his movement and surprising him for a split second, allowing Casca to strike him down. And then Guts dies, standing, a foot still on Femto's cape.

I think my subconscious almost plagiarized another manga (won't tell which one, because of obvious ultimate spoiler ^^) but I think it was a pretty cool scene in my dream.

Can't wait to have the real ending. In 10 years maybe Oh well, it's the journey that matters, not the destination or whatever you guys say ^^

Sorry for the useless post, just woke up and didn't want to forget it, oh well

Not almost, you completely described ending to the manga you are talking about just need to change some names, its like if you forgot your dream you could quickly reread the manga and you'll remember it. Anyway I hope Guts survives in the Berserk ending, big guy endured too much it would be too sad if he dies.

Ah, I was sure somebody would recognize it! I haven't read this mysterious and very underrated manga in years (about 5/6 maybe?), and after writing this dream I quickly re-read just the end again to compare.That made me remember even more parts of my dream, but seeing it Berserk-style was a nice vision. Cool dream. Made me want to read that manga again, I have fond memories of it. Cheers!

As I told before, I have several certain theses about ending. Maybe they wouldn't be very innovatory, but I'm quite sure about all of them, and I wanted to create kind of summation about everything we know:1. Griffith would be defeated - in this way of another. He could be degraded by his people, whose collective consciousness will change, by Guts, by his own inner problems, by the causalty. The ending would be very disappointing, if Femto come out of it sickeningly inviolable, as ever. And, like I said somewhere before, whole part of manga after defeating Ganishka would be in vain. 2. Demon child will play most important role in Guts/Griffith conflict - for his whole life, Griffith wanted to get rid of his feelings, because they were only burden to him during his way to the castle - on the other hand, achieving his dream surely kept him satisfied. Now, as Femto, his wish came true and his heart is frozen. He bears no regrets, but is he still capable of being happy or satisfied? I think not. He would be crowned, he would marry a princess, he would rule the greatest kingdom of humankind ever from the godlike castle, and he would take no satisfaction from it, because of his own wish. Besides, he lives as a God Hand still very short, and he behaves mostly human way - that's why he saved the princess, why he plays with Sonia and create all this show with bowing to the pope and farewell-rites. Griffith always wanted to be a good guy, a noble knight from a fairytale, and even after becoming a daemon (a deamon who could solve all problems with war and interregnum by force) he still waits for the satisfaction he used to get from being a heroic Griffith White Hawk. That's why he didn't descended into material world in clearly godlike form - he wanted to play into being his old self, and he wanted his old self to achieve a kingdom as he wished and live happily ever after. But it's impossible. He would get it and still feel nothing - just like his dream was in vain. But wait, there ARE feelings he has - only feelings he can feel now and will be able to feel evermore - daemon child's love for Guts and Casca. I find this situation comparable to one when Griffith was alone in the cell of Tower of Rebirth - he started to be reconciled with setback of his dream, and cherish his memories of friendship with Guts. It's also justification to why Griffith and Guts will meet again - I find and idea of Falconia attacking Skellig not so convincing, so like Guts hitting the road back just to kill his nemesis - he promised to take care of Casca, and no matter if he will cure her or not, I think he won't take a risk of trying to kill Femto with Casca by his side. He would have too much to lose. But Griffith pursuing the only thing that could make him feel happy now is other case.3. Sonia will join Schierke as they meet next time - it's nearly certain, taking in concern Sonia's dream about owl and kite playing in the forest. Sonia is seeress, and I believe her dreams mean a lot. It's also big chance that she'll find out who Griffith really is, or... insult at him after his wedding with Charlotte. Sonia is great character, very dynamic and unpredictible, and I think she still have some important role to play in Berserk.4. Somebody will use Guts' Beherit, and it won't be Guts - it won't be Guts, because he is already sacrificed, and on the other hand, he would have to sacrifice Casca who is also already sacrificed. I think of somebody relatively unaware of whole thing with Beherits - like Isma, Charlotte, Sonia... Also Farnese seems likely to do this to me.

I also wish Casca to be cured, but unfortunately I'm not sure of it. It will be tragic, seeing Guts' reaction to her inability to come back to reality, but on the other hand Berserk is very little stirring last times, and it could be way to set it back on the proper, depressing and hard track of how it used to be before Millennium Falcon Arc.

Guts may have a 'somewhat happy' ending (paraphrasing), but I feel that during the climactic sequences, most of Falconia's population will regard him as an unstoppable harbinger of doom for their paradise. Once he gets in there and starts wrecking things, they won't see him as some kind of savior at all. I feel like its just an ironic portrayal of humanity waiting to be expressed.

Note that such portrayal has already been depicted to some extent at the end of the Conviction arc.

Casca clearly doesn't remember that Femto raped her - ok, now she doesn't remember nearly nothing from her past, but I mean that always when she has flashbacks about rape - there are apostles raping her, not Femto (I think it could be like several seconds before passing out - she didn't "record" that act).

Casca had a couple flashbacks of herself being assaulted by several apostles when she was being assaulted by several ruffians. No rape actually occurred. There's no reason to assume she didn't "record" the rape, however it's quite clear, given that it is what caused her the trauma that resulted in her current condition, that it's not something that can easily come up to her conscious mind. Recalling that event and dealing with it will likely play an important role in her healing process.

If recovered Casca was indeed unable to recall that memory, she will be like Rickert - but a lot more devoted to Griffith.

There is no basis for that assumption. The only reason Casca thought about staying with Griffith instead of going with Guts was because Griffith was a broken man and he clinged to her. That's not what she wanted to do; she was sacrificing herself out of pity. The situation is now vastly different, and even within that contrived scenario of yours what you propose isn't a likely occurrence. Also, Rickert's case is completely different, and his motivation to be in Falconia isn't what you seem to think it is.

In anticipation of your comments, that she'd remember apostles devouring BoH anyway - there is very large possibility, that she wouldn't belive, that it was caused by Griffith's conscious decision. From her point of view, during the eclipse Griffith was small, mutile cripple rapted by the demons - yes, that demons claimed that it was his wish to sacrifice them, but hello, they were DEMONS, they could simply lied about it, and kill them all just for fun - Casca could even think that Griffith had been killed by them first (giant hand that closed on him). In case of Guts telling her his point of view after bringing her back to reality - does she have to believe him? She could became under the impression, that fighting monsters durin the eclipse drove him insane, and he believed into lies about Griffith's fault just to have some enemy to pursue, some reason to unload his anger and hatred.

Don't you realize how desperately you twist the scenes so that you can keep believing in your little story? Casca knew who Femto was when he started violating her. She knew Griffith had been chosen, she heard the words like the others. And she would have no reason to distrust Guts or to refuse to believe what he saw or heard. But beyond that, Griffith's current position as a supernatural ruler of a supernatural city in a supernatural world makes it completely clear that something abnormal happened to him, and she was there when it did. I could go on and on about this, but honestly the takeaway for you should just be to "get real". Stop deluding yourself.

Why do I look for so many reasons for Casca to take Griffith's side? Because Griffith means to Casca a lot more than some of you think, and it has nothing in common with shipping Griffith with Casca or justifying his rape on her. Casca loves him not only as a potential partner - she loves him as a father, brother, master (master/apprentice relation), and even as her child (somebody who needs her care). Her feelings for him are way more complicated than for Guts - there is a lot more trust, empathy and general admiration for him than for Guts (who is seen by Casca as somebody agressive and reckless, no matter how she loves him), and so, there is a big possibility that Casca would reason like that, as she come back to the lucid state. She is simply too devoted to his figure as a noble hero, her saviour and master to believe into story like that.

I think it's pretty obvious here that you're the one who does not understand what exactly each person means to the other. You speak of depth of emotion, of complexity, but it just feels like you haven't read the story. Very simply put, by the time the Eclipse occurred, it can be confidently said that Casca loved Guts and that she didn't love Griffith. Instead of guessing what the characters feel, you can just read what they say and think, and it'll be all clear to you. When Casca thought about staying behind to care for him, she certainly didn't see him as a "noble hero" or a "savior", and definitely not as her "master". You're wasting everyone's time (and setting yourself up for a disappointment) when you try to refute these simple truths.

It was after a big battle, Guts is standing, beaten and bloodied up in front of Femto, who toys with him, cuts his good arm off, destroys his good eye, and finally stabs him in he torso, and at that exact moment Casca appears behind Femto in a big jump, crying and wielding a huge sword (?). Femto smirks, starts to turn around to face her but Guts, almost dead just make one step forward, and step/stomp on his cape, blocking his movement and surprising him for a split second, allowing Casca to strike him down. And then Guts dies, standing, a foot still on Femto's cape.

To be honest that seems pretty bad to me. A dying Guts steps on Femto's wings (not a cape), and that allows Casca to kill him? Sounds like a joke.

2. Demon child will play most important role in Guts/Griffith conflict - for his whole life, Griffith wanted to get rid of his feelings, because they were only burden to him during his way to the castle - on the other hand, achieving his dream surely kept him satisfied. Now, as Femto, his wish came true and his heart is frozen. He bears no regrets, but is he still capable of being happy or satisfied? I think not. He would be crowned, he would marry a princess, he would rule the greatest kingdom of humankind ever from the godlike castle, and he would take no satisfaction from it, because of his own wish. Besides, he lives as a God Hand still very short, and he behaves mostly human way - that's why he saved the princess, why he plays with Sonia and create all this show with bowing to the pope and farewell-rites. Griffith always wanted to be a good guy, a noble knight from a fairytale, and even after becoming a daemon (a deamon who could solve all problems with war and interregnum by force) he still waits for the satisfaction he used to get from being a heroic Griffith White Hawk. That's why he didn't descended into material world in clearly godlike form - he wanted to play into being his old self, and he wanted his old self to achieve a kingdom as he wished and live happily ever after. But it's impossible. He would get it and still feel nothing - just like his dream was in vain. But wait, there ARE feelings he has - only feelings he can feel now and will be able to feel evermore - daemon child's love for Guts and Casca. I find this situation comparable to one when Griffith was alone in the cell of Tower of Rebirth - he started to be reconciled with setback of his dream, and cherish his memories of friendship with Guts. It's also justification to why Griffith and Guts will meet again - I find and idea of Falconia attacking Skellig not so convincing, so like Guts hitting the road back just to kill his nemesis - he promised to take care of Casca, and no matter if he will cure her or not, I think he won't take a risk of trying to kill Femto with Casca by his side. He would have too much to lose. But Griffith pursuing the only thing that could make him feel happy now is other case.

God, what a load that was. You're getting a lot of things confused here. Like the fact Femto didn't come into the corporeal world until he was incarnated. That wasn't because he didn't want to, he just couldn't. Same for the others. Oh and the Demon Child's feelings aren't Griffith's. The two remain separate despite inhabiting the same body, so it's more parasitic from what we've seen so far. Similarly, you talk at length about Griffith's feelings (or absence of) and what he wants or doesn't want, but that's mostly baseless. We don't have that kind of window into his mind. And the way he's been behaving since his incarnation was also in a large part to achieve a greater plan, don't forget that.

But even when we do know what he thinks, you get it wrong. For example, you speak of Griffith simply cherishing his memories of friendship with Guts while he was imprisoned in the Tower of Rebirth, while Griffith actually went insane at that time and developed a hatred for him, blaming him for his current situation without reconsidering his own actions. Lastly, about Guts not wanting to go to Griffith with Casca (even sane) at his side... That remains to be seen. However, keep in mind that the boy has actually been visiting his parents (in the form of the Moonlight Boy). Again, the boy and Griffith may share a body (and more, it seems), but they aren't quite the same being. So I don't believe Griffith would go to Guts and Casca because that's all that'd make him happy. His feelings for those two were addressed in volume 22, and if anything, the boy's emotions (and actions), that he hadn't anticipated, unnerved him enough that he left. I don't believe he'd want to reiterate that experience.

3. Sonia will join Schierke as they meet next time - it's nearly certain, taking in concern Sonia's dream about owl and kite playing in the forest. Sonia is seeress, and I believe her dreams mean a lot. It's also big chance that she'll find out who Griffith really is, or... insult at him after his wedding with Charlotte. Sonia is great character, very dynamic and unpredictible, and I think she still have some important role to play in Berserk.

Sonia's dream? What dream? Sonia has a very specific worldview, and she could relate to Schierke as being different but similar enough to her that they could be friends. Brought together by their specialness, by the fact they are not like the majority of humans. However, Sonia is Griffith's #1 fan at this point, and she's hardly been phased by things like apostles or the like so far. I sure hope she gets to rebel at some point, but I don't quite see how it'd happen in the way you're saying. For one thing, she and Schierke are very far apart from one another right now.

4. Somebody will use Guts' Beherit, and it won't be Guts - it won't be Guts, because he is already sacrificed, and on the other hand, he would have to sacrifice Casca who is also already sacrificed. I think of somebody relatively unaware of whole thing with Beherits - like Isma, Charlotte, Sonia... Also Farnese seems likely to do this to me.

What purpose would it serve for the story if any of those you mention were to become apostles? I think that's what should be taken into account when speculating about this. I mean, Farnese's undergone tremendous character development, so don't you think it'd be a waste for her to just become a monster? A monster Guts could dispatch without breaking a sweat?

I also wish Casca to be cured, but unfortunately I'm not sure of it. It will be tragic, seeing Guts' reaction to her inability to come back to reality, but on the other hand Berserk is very little stirring last times, and it could be way to set it back on the proper, depressing and hard track of how it used to be before Millennium Falcon Arc.

I don't think you've got a good grasp on the story or its development. We've been waiting for Casca to come back for a long time now. To have that denied would be ridiculous. But beyond that, Guts has been struggling to keep going, to not lose himself in his revenge, and that's an even bigger danger now that he wears the Berserk's armor. The one light that's kept him alive, that's kept him sane, is Casca. If he is to ever triumph over what awaits him, he'll need her with him. A "depressing and hard track" would be for Guts to die alone while fighting monsters in a shithole. I don't believe that's what Miura has in store for us.

There is no basis for that assumption. The only reason Casca thought about staying with Griffith instead of going with Guts was because Griffith was a broken man and he clinged to her. That's not what she wanted to do

Ofc that's not what she wanted to do. Taking care of your bed-ridden grandmother is also not what you want to do. It's your duty with respect to a person who formerly was taking care of you - you remember days when she was your teacher, trustee and guardian, when she was stronger and wiser than you, and you just can't leave her when she needs your help. It's comparable with what Casca had to feel. I read manga enough times to reason, that there was no moment in which Casca says or thinks that since now Griffith means for her no more than Corcus. She claims that her feelings were "empty", because they were unable to fulfill and she realised, that she clinged to them in vain, not because they were fake. Her feelings for Guts had a ground to grow on, so she developed them quickly in a short time, but notice that even during the rescue trip in Wyndham, after Casca expressed her love for Guts, she was jealous as princess hinted that Griffith slept with her. Women really don't have one slot for a guy they love (especially that Casca really wasn't thinking about Griffith as her potential partner that times, what you know ofc - but it doesn't mean that all her feelings for him disappeared).

Also, Rickert's case is completely different, and his motivation to be in Falconia isn't what you seem to think it is.

I think that he took Erica to the safest place he could. What you supposed that I thought? I wanted to refer to the fact that Rickert was unable to hate Griffith, because he hadn't seen the slaughter of BoH - he knew what happened, but he didn't "felt" that.

You can just read what they say and think, and it'll be all clear to you.

OK, in chapters 61 and 62 Casca tells how empty and meaningless her feelings for Griffith were, and that she's weary with it. Somewhere in the manga is also something like "When Griffith lost for the first time, I should have been thinking about him and focus on him, but my eyes were fasten on Guts", but this one in turn shows the fact that she was affected by the fact that Guts left in any way, because before she wasn't even aware that he means to her more than generic soldier. And not sure if you noticed, departure (permanent) of somebody is more serious thing than being beaten in gentlemanly duel. Try to imagine what she'd do if Griffith wanted to leave without a word. Moreover, read the second half of the chapter 66, and see how Casca gives a shit about whole thing with princess... Moreover, there's one pic where she directly claims that she still worships Griffith. I know that I'm new, but that doesn't mean that I read manga once and slapdash.

To be honest, I can't find any page on which Casca denies her feelings for Griffith. You can post them if you want to help me...

I'm sorry for this one, I'm not native english speaker and have relatively little contact with the language. BTW, that's why my syntax appears nasty sometimes, and why I usually use past simple as I write about past, even if construction of the sentence requires other form - it's the most similar to the only past form I have in my native language.

Oh and the Demon Child's feelings aren't Griffith's. The two remain separate despite inhabiting the same body, so it's more parasitic from what we've seen so far. Similarly, you talk at length about Griffith's feelings (or absence of) and what he wants or doesn't want, but that's mostly baseless. We don't have that kind of window into his mind.

What do you think about analyzing one's behavior and speculating about feelings? I thought this part of forum was made to do this...

For example, you speak of Griffith simply cherishing his memories of friendship with Guts while he was imprisoned in the Tower of Rebirth, while Griffith actually went insane at that time and developed a hatred for him

Argh, why you try to persuade me again that I wrote something I didn't? I wrote "he started to be reconciled with setback of his dream, and cherish his memories of friendship with Guts" and let's keep it in original form, without decorating it with adverbs of our choice, ok?

I don't claim that cherishing memories about friendship excludes hatred to an object, or madness of a subject. I recommend listening of Rammstein's "Mutter" - it describes combination of love, hatred and obsession perfectly. And very accurately in the reference to Griffith's situation.

We've been waiting for Casca to come back for a long time now. To have that denied would be ridiculous. But beyond that, Guts has been struggling to keep going, to not lose himself in his revenge, and that's an even bigger danger now that he wears the Berserk's armor.

It's true. But, on the other hand - was whole introducing into life of BoH ridiculous? Was Gaston's stories about his shop and Judeau's about his troupe in vain? Perhaps. Or were they in the story to make us sympathize with Hawks, and to bring us more pain during the eclipse? Similar thing could be with Casca - to show all struggling with hellhound as desperate clinging to nothing but an illusion. It would be a bit too long, but nothing is impossible. Not sure if you noticed, but there's a moment in which hellhound teases Guts, that Casca's not what he wants really - his only real goal is vengeance, and taking care of Casca is just caressing wounds that Griffith inflicted him. I won't be surprised if Casca - for example - would resist as Hanafubuku will try to take her to sanity (like Skull Knight said - she will not want to become aware of what happened to her), and Guts would make his last farewell to his former love and comrades, to fulfill his destiny and come back to face Griffith last time. It's also what he wants, and the choice between Griffith and Casca was difficult to him though. It won't be shitty plot development imo.

At the end I could also refer to our good old crippled Griffith situation - Casca is for Guts now the same thing Griffith was to Casca than - shell of her former, wonderful self. Guts also doesn't want to wipe retarded Casca's ass - he lives on a hope of restoring her mind, but he also simply found it cruel to leave this shell alone to die. Does he love her still? I think he loves her (to be painfully accurate - her retarded form, not an idea of her former self) similarly to how Casca loved crippled Griffith.

Ofc that's not what she wanted to do. Taking care of your bed-ridden grandmother is also not what you want to do. It's your duty with respect to a person who formerly was taking care of you - you remember days when she was your teacher, trustee and guardian, when she was stronger and wiser than you, and you just can't leave her when she need your help. It's comparable with what Casca had to feel.

First of all, pretty bogus analogy given the actual relationship between Casca and Griffith, who she admits to having had romantic feelings for... But do you honestly think she'd continue to feel that devotion after learning the truth about what happened to her comrades (who she fought to near-death trying to protect), and herself? Her granny sure was a dick.

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I read manga enough times to reason, that there was no moment in which Casca says or thinks that since now Griffith means for her no more than Corcus.

Nice black or white argument... It's either ALL LOVE or THE SAME AS CORKUS. She admits that her feelings for Griffith changed after a) she realized there was no place at Griffith's side for her in the way that she wanted b) Guts began to grow in importance in her life. We also see Judo realizing her changing emotions in volume 8 and 9. This is Miura's way of underlining this fundamental shift in Casca.

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Casca expressed her love for Guts, she was jealous as princess hinted that Griffith slept with her.

Jealous of having slept with her dear, old Granny? I don't think that's really proof of anything. She felt a residual pang of jealousy. Weighing that equally alongside the huge, open-heart conversation she had during her love scene with Guts is absurd.

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Casca really wasn't thinking about Griffith as her potential partner that times, what you know ofc - but it doesn't mean that all her feelings for him disappeared).

But her feelings had fundamentally changed. She's not "I want to be his sword" Casca anymore. Which I believe is the point Aazealh was making, and you seem to keep ignoring that in favor of some cryogenically frozen Volume 5-era Casca. But I'm glad you realize she didn't want to jump his bones. Some people get confused about that...

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I think that he took Erica to the safest place he could. What you supposed that I thought? I wanted to refer to the fact that Rickert was unable to hate Griffith, because he hadn't seen the slaughter of BoH - he knew what happened, but he didn't "felt" that.

I can't speak for Aazealh, but before you replied I took it that you were implying that Rickert had sought out Falconia over some mad devotion to Griffith (which I guess you think Casca still feels?), which just isn't the case. He's extremely wary of his former leader and the circumstances he's in.

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So what the speculation section was made for...?

Guessing at characters' feelings that have already been expressed is absolutely not the point of this section of the forum. It is about making informed theories about what may happen next in the series.

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OK, in chapters 61 and 62 Casca tells how empty and meaningless her feelings for Griffith were

I think you have your numbering confused. Episodes 61 and 62 are in Volume 11 and involve Wyald's assault on the Falcons. I'm guessing you were referencing scanlations? Here's a handy reference for volume and episode numbers: http://www.skullknight.net/manga

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Casca tells how meaningless her feelings for Griffith were, but she doesn't claim that they were fake

No one's said her feelings were fake. Just that they had changed.

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she claims that she still worships him.

Please cite a volume, episode, and page number. Not sure what you're referring to out of hand.

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To be honest, I can't find any page on which Casca denies her feelings for Griffith. You can post them if you want to help me...

You're misunderstanding. It's not that her feelings were false. They evolved. She no longer feels that way about Griffith. That's what the bulk of her soliloquies were about in volume 9.

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I think that posting my bed-ridden grandma metaphore here once more is not necessary...

Oh, please! Let's bring Granny Griffith back into the mix!!!

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I'm not native english speaker, sorry for this one. BTW, that's why I usually use past simple as I write about past, even if construction of the sentence requires other form - it's the most similar to the only past form I have in my native language.

We're an international forum, and used to people who don't speak English natively. You don't have to apologize for it. Aazealh likely meant that even after putting a non-English speaking filter on the sentence, it didn't make sense.

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I know, and find nothing precluding in any of my posts

You know? Really? You were just wrong, and Aazealh pointed out your contradiction. Here's what you wrote: "That's why he didn't descended into material world in clearly godlike form - he wanted to play into being his old self, and he wanted his old self to achieve a kingdom as he wished and live happily ever after." Femto wasn't expressing restraint or choosing to wait to take a kingdom (God, this sounds so ridiculous...). He had to wait because key events hadn't yet transpired. I.E. the Millennial Incarnation Ceremony that would allow him to take a fleshly body. He had no option that we know of to descend as some shining god. The God Hand are noncorporeal.

Also, this notion of Griffith still wanting to be the knight in shining armor ruling his kingdom is truly misguided. I can only assume that you're also under the same spell most of humanity is when they look at Griffith. Achieving a kingdom was the dream of Griffith the man. Do you really think Femto: Wings of Darkness, a near god-like being who shed his humanity, still has only such a narrow-minded goal? The throne is merely the figurehead for the God Hand's campaign. Fulfilling that aspect of Griffith--the man's--wishes was a pebble on the path to their true goals. The way he obtained Falconia is proof of this.

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What do you think about analyzing one's behavior and speculating about feelings? I thought this part of forum was made to do this...

It's utterly fruitless to speculate about things that are already known, and in fact it introduces misconceptions, muddying the waters of understanding for others. So please don't.

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Argh, why you try to persuade me again that I wrote something I didn't? I wrote "he started to be reconciled with setback of his dream, and cherish his memories of friendship with Guts" and let's keep it in original form, without decorating it with adverbs of our choice, ok?

The "decoration" was appropriate. You only mentioned the positive aspects of Griffith's reflections while imprisoned, leading to a warped sense of what was truly happening in his mind. It's nice to know that you understand there was more going on in that scene though.

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I don't claim that cherishing memories about friendship excludes hatred to an object, or madness of a subject. I recommend listening of Rammstein's "Mutter" - it describes combination of love, hatred and obsession perfectly. And very accurately in the reference to Griffith's situation.

Aazealh really doesn't need to be lectured to like this. Particularly not by using Rammstein as a primary source of emotional understanding...

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Guts said "Why did I always realize it, when I already lost it..." enough times to think twice, I think.

Sorry, I'm not clear on what you're implying.

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Easy, he's Femto for only 3-4 years, and he still conquers his kingdom. Wait till he'd be the king for couple of years, and would be unable to get any satisfaction from his lifelong dream...

Sounds rather farfetched. Femto would seek out Guts out of boredom after ruling over humanity? Keep on believing that, I guess...

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I find recommending me re-reading manga a little improper in the face of this...

Wow! Way to play your ace burn card at the wrong moment. Check the scene again. Sonia didn't have a dream about that scenario. She was merely telling a story she created about the "kite and the falcon" to whimsically relate her situation with Griffith.

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It's true. But, on the other hand - was whole introducting into life of BoH ridiculous? Was Gaston's stories about his shop and Judeau's about his troup in vain? Perhaps. Or were they in the story to make us sympathize with Hawks, and to bring us more pain during the eclipse? Similar thing could be with Casca - to show all struggling with hellhound as desperate clinging to nothing but an illusion.

The two scenarios are not comparable. And without Casca, there would be nothing holding Guts back, and the story would be finished. Great manga...

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Not sure if you noticed,

This is a terrible attitude for a starting member to take.

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but there's a moment in which hellhound teases Guts, that Casca's not what he wants really - his only real goal is vengeance, and taking care of Casca is just caressing wounds that Griffith inflicted him.

Yeah? So what? The Beast, which represents the darkest side of Guts' mind, tells him something that terrifies him -- a small part of him probably would gleefully unshackle his wholesome feelings and run into certain oblivion for a chance to snap his jaws at his nemesis. That doesn't mean it's Guts' true desire, once you take all his feelings into account. And do you honestly think that would make a suitable end for the series, given all of Guts' struggles?

Of course Casca still loved Griffith, that's part of why the Eclipse was so traumatic. She just no longer held romantic feelings for him. Even though she loved Guts, Griffith was the still the very first individual who gave her a choice in life. Before she met him, she was a possession of her poor family sold into the hands of a lecherous noble. To her, that sword was the opportunity to take her life into her own hands. Even when she no longer desired to be his lover, she still revered and cherished him as a leader and liberator.

In fact that's likely why her rape was as traumatic as it had been. After watching her beloved comrades become a damned feast for horrific monstrosities along with being stripped and humiliated by said monstrosities, all at the will of their beloved leader, whom they had risked life and limb to save, the man she once trusted and loved above all else, the man who freed her, violates her in front of the one she chose to love. Any lingering romantic feelings she may have felt for Griffith would only amplify the trauma because it would juxtapose the man she once wanted to be with against the demon that was forcing himself on her and the awful reality they are one and the same.

Also the idea that she enjoyed her rape is quite ridiculous. Her body may have displayed signs of arousal, however that is a physiological effect which is not the same as psychological response. She would be feeling physical pleasure against her will and that would further torment her with confusion and shame, because it would be like her very body was betraying her. It would be pleasure coupled with the pain of the Brand. Mind you, even if she had once fantasized about being with Griffith, having that former wish granted in so twisted a way in front of Guts would make her feel deeply ashamed and self loathing.

All of this culminates into the kind of Post Traumatic Stress that takes years of therapy to treat. It's no wonder she regressed to such a childlike state.

Restoring her mind will involve confronting that reality. Most likely it will involve convincing her to accept the reality of what happened but cast off the shame, to hold Griffith responsible for the choices he made to betray them, and most importantly that even a world in which such horrible things happen is one worth living in. I think the visit to Skellig will mark a turning point in both Casca and Guts. Guts will see an image of Casca, the child, and himself as a family, he will realize that this is what she wants. To be with Guts and their son and raise him together.

Guts will at first be scared of this dream because he spent all of those years soaked in blood. He couldn't imagine himself as a father after being raised by such a terrible man as Gambino but he will reluctantly try to make her desire a reality. However, this will stir a desire to be a father, to give his son a better life and a better future than he had. This hope will ultimately be a light in his keeps him from being consumed by the Beast. This happens at least later down the line.

When her mind is restored, Casca and Guts will return to Midland to confront Griffith, not for vengeance, but to get their son back. The Schierke, Farnese, and the rest of the party will return as well but find themselves teaching humans an alternate way of surviving in Fantasia. One that does not rely on Falconia. It won't the reason they returned but it becomes a spanner in the designs of the God Hand.

When they return, they will confront Silat and the Bakiraka. Having fought to carve out a home for himself and his clan, Silat will be moved by Guts and Casca's goals and becomes their ally. Farnese will find herself the leader of a movement of humans who do not wish to join Falconia, instead using Schierke's teachings. Instead of being a symbol of witch hunters, she will endear normal humans to magic users. This will catch the attentions of the God Hand.

The big final confrontation will be preceded by a calmer Guts asking Griffith about what he said to Charlotte about a true friend. Though he still hasn't forgiven him, Guts will not fight Griffith for the sake of vengeance but because it is the only way to give his family a future. I think the series will end with Guts giving his life to free his son's body from Femto. An Act of Self Sacrifice. Whether or not he ultimately survives this will be ambiguous but his actions will have a profound effect on those who witness it. In the end, Femto will die though, possibly along with the rest of the God Hand. The Idea of Evil however, will still be around and act as though it is undefeated.

However, there will be hints of growing movement amongst humanity that could potentially change their nature for the better.

All story lines and plot points seamlessly lead Guts and company back to Falconia where yet another Eclipse is happening. Griffith, still seeking his castle in the sky is sacrificing all of humanity, even the princess he married and her hand maiden. The God Hand stand over watching as the event unfolds.

Story lines involving Guts and the Berserker Armor will likely be resolved. I honestly don't think Guts will be able to use it for much longer. He'll probably use it to take down Griffith's generals and that will be it. Something will happen where he'll have to fight the armor or it will get destroyed. Casca will eventually get her memories back but be conflicted still about whether Guts or Griffith are the men she wants to be with.

Guts will have made their way up to the palm where a stand off with Griffith will take place. This however ruins the Skull Knight's plan and he comes in to stop Guts. I don't know what this plan will be, but it's a lot better than charging forward at five god-like beings. He strikes Guts unexpectedly to the ground calling him a fool to think he could take any of them on. The four God Hands laugh and remark on how unprepared they are for this. Griffith swoops down to take them on.

Guts in a blind rage impales the Skull Knight though his chest with his claymore, taking the Skull Knight completely off guard and dismounting him from his horse. The Skull Knight survives the blow but is powerless before Guts who now removes his claymore which is stained with Beherit juice and capable of slicing through the fabric of existence itself. The God Hand and even Guts himself is surprised by this. He swings his sword around creating all sorts of tears in the fabric of space and is able to kill Void, Slan, Conrad and Ubrik from a great distance away.

Guts then turns his attention on Griffith who squeezes his hand to crush Guts (and probably Skull Knight's horse) like an ant. Guts is trapped inside Griffith's grasp a moment but slicing through the fabric of space, Guts is able to escape at the cost of his sword which Griffith crushes down into nothing.

Guts charges at Griffith from another angle screaming his name. Griffith turns to crush him again but Guts already has his hand cannon out and blows Griffith's hand off, which surprises Griffith. Guts quickly tackles him to the ground and then we get at least 20 pages of Guts punching the shit out of Griffiths' face, his hands and then wrists, arms, face, and elbows becoming more bloodied with every blow. Part way through Casca (and maybe others) join the scene. At first they're happy to see Griffith get a pounding but that mood slowly changes as they see Guts in a blind rage still screaming and pulverizing Griffith's face into jelly. Eventually Casca goes over to Guts's side and tells him to stop. She points out he's dead already. He he's been dead and not moving for at least 5 pages now. Stop. Guts Stop it! You can stop now, Guts! And she lays a hand on Guts's shoulder. Guts quickly turns to her and punches her as hard as he could right in the face. Guts turns back to keep pounding on Griffith and then it sinks in exactly what he's done.

Casca, now bleeding from the nose and crying, gets up. Guts turns to her and stands. Guts is sweating and one the verge of tears himself. The two stand before one another just staring and finally, Casca says good bye and turns away.

The God Hand structure as well as the city of Falonia begin collapsing as it sinks back with the earth, back to whatever realm it came from. Story lines with Zodd will have been resolved and he is now missing both horns. He comes to retrieve the Skull Knight who he looks on more as a friend now and perhaps gives Casca (and the others if they're there) a lift to safety.

Guts watches as they fly away and then realization sinks in. He falls to his knees and starts vomiting from the disgusting feeling of what he's done with his life all start to sink in. Following pages will likely summarizing the whole series as Guts comes to his senses. He goes and sits besides Griffiths corps... which he finds has torn open in the middle strangely. He reaches his arms down inside as if reaching into a portal to another world, he wraps his arms around what he finds and pulls out Griffith, alive and unharmed but in the form he was in after being tortured for years. Starved, frail, with his tendons cut, his tongue cut out. He is no longer Famto.

Together Griffith and Guts sit side by side and watch the world around them collapse. Griffith lays his head on Guts's shoulder and the series ends as the god hand itself closes around them and falls within the earth.

The End.

And just for fun the eventual Rule 34, Bara, version where Guts and Griffith (in his normal form) are about to 69.Griffith: "I have your sword" Guts: "Let me tell you something. In the bedroom this is how you use your mouth!"

Er, wait a minute. We're gonna time skip ~216 years? I mean, I guess Guts and co. could hang out on Skellig for awhile.

Edit: Oh god, I read the rest.

That bad? It did seem like Griffith creating a virtual heaven on earth was heading towards another fake eclipse at least. Falconia isn't exactly the kingdom in the sky Griffith was after, and people are going to start asking questions when he doesn't age, but a more immediate problem is keeping the his army of Apostles thirst for blood under control.

That bad? It did seem like Griffith creating a virtual heaven on earth was heading towards another fake eclipse at least.

How? Why? I don't follow this line of speculation...at all.

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Falconia isn't exactly the kingdom in the sky Griffith was after

It's not?

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and people are going to start asking questions when he doesn't age

He seems rather divine, and even has the full support of the Pontiff.

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but a more immediate problem is keeping the his army of Apostles thirst for blood under control.

He also seems to have that under control. Not to mention there are plenty of monsters in the world for apostles to test their mettle against. Besides, look at what happened to the last apostle that stood against Griffith. I don't think he'll have too many problems keeping everyone in line.

That bad? It did seem like Griffith creating a virtual heaven on earth was heading towards another fake eclipse at least. Falconia isn't exactly the kingdom in the sky Griffith was after, and people are going to start asking questions when he doesn't age, but a more immediate problem is keeping the his army of Apostles thirst for blood under control.

Sort of, I understand Delta Phi's reaction. Without getting into the specifics of your ending, a lot of your ideas are either baseless or can't happen. I kinda picture what you're saying but it doesn't match with what we actually know about it. And for the rest I also agree with Delta Phi.

He seems rather divine, and even has the full support of the Pontiff.He also seems to have that under control. Not to mention there are plenty of monsters in the world for apostles to test their mettle against. Besides, look at what happened to the last apostle that stood against Griffith. I don't think he'll have too many problems keeping everyone in line.

True, Griffith is very divine, so maybe the people won't question his age. And yes I guess he does have control over all the apostles... but honestly all the members of the God Hand don't strike me as being for the betterment of mankind. Something evil is going to happen in this city!

Well if it is, things are really going to get awkward if Guts and the others ever get there. It's kind of hard to take vengeance out on someone who's solving all the world's problems. (Though we might get a few chapters where Griffith is giving Guts the grand tour.) If Griffith is never revealed to be the monster that he is then it's going to end with Guts being taken prisoner for lashing out and he'll probably be hanged to death from the same tree his mother gave birth to him under. Which would be poetic if nothing else but should happen after some sort of resolution to Griffith happens.

but honestly all the members of the God Hand don't strike me as being for the betterment of mankind.

I think that's quite obvious. We, the readers, aren't meant to question Griffith's motives. We know he's evil. I've seen a lot of readers get tripped up on Falconia. They see Griffith's actions and assume he's trying to protect humanity from the monsters outside. But remember, Griffith is responsible for these monsters showing up in the first place (and thanks to a little help from SK). Now humanity is solely dependent on him. Setting fire to someone's house so that you can be the one to save them doesn't make you a hero.

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Something evil is going to happen in this city!

I agree, but I doubt it'll have to do with another mass sacrifice (I don't really know where people get this idea). At this point, Griffith can rule however he sees fit. If anyone disagrees, then they can face the monsters outside.

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It's kind of hard to take vengeance out on someone who's solving all the world's problems.

I agree, but I doubt it'll have to do with another mass sacrifice (I don't really know where people get this idea). At this point, Griffith can rule however he sees fit. If anyone disagrees, then they can face the monsters outside.

Berserk: Volume 10, page 112. The princess tells the story of how the kingdom got it's name as they descend the tower to rescue Griffith. We learn about King Gaiseric who is almost certainly the Skull Knight, actually I think they confirm it in one of the issues. But then on page 118 someone accidentally drops a torch. And it lands on a pile of dead bodies who all have the brand on their four heads. The architecture is like a ruined roman city and when you look at Falconia there are sever buildings of a similar make. There's even a giant orb structure in the back (I think where he keeps all the apostles) that if raised up a bit to block out the sun, might manufacture an eclipse... though even I'll admit that's like something Mr. Burns tried to do on the Simpsons.

What we really need to know is what Griffith's motive is now that he has a kingdom.

Yeah, I guess. Especially considering the whole karmic spiral business. But I would argue that the uniformity of the brand leads me to believe it wasn't a true eclipse ceremony. My current head canon is something to do with some kind of mock ritual by some fanatics. But who knows.

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We learn about King Gaiseric who is almost certainly the Skull Knight, actually I think they confirm it in one of the issues.

They don't. But it's all but confirmed at this point.

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There's even a giant orb structure in the back (I think where he keeps all the apostles) that if raised up a bit to block out the sun, might manufacture an eclipse...

Yeah, I don't think that's how it works. The mock eclipse card has already been played with Griffith's incarnation, but I guess it could happen again in some capacity.

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What we really need to know is what Griffith's motive is now that he has a kingdom.

Yep! I find it hard to imagine he'll be content to just sit back and rule. Of course, we don't even know what the IoE's grand plan is.

His motive is to run his kingdom, there is no evidence that Griffith has any ulterior agenda.

It is painfully obvious that Griffith has an ulterior agenda besides "running his kingdom". But you're right that it won't involve a "Falconia Mega Eclipse", as you put it, for that would just be unimaginative.

I honestly just want the homie Guts to be happy. So I will take any ending that involves Guts being awarded for his pain and suffering with love and happiness, because he deserves it. He could become king or something but i see him at the end of his journey just going to the mountains with or without casca and sleeping.