On the bright side, we'll undoubtedly make TWIS this week. I'll admit that I was laughing maniacally when Devin turned the ball over and then again when Iowa through for a first down on 4th and ten.

I can't understand how an offense with that kind of talent can be THAT bad so near the end of the season. And as has been pointed out, they're constantly sliding towards worse each week. It's not like Iowa's good.

No.... don't turn down any bowl, we CLEARLY need the extra practices. I don't give a damn about honor, I care about getting better for next year. We're one decent OC away from being a good football team.

But realistically he won't and probably shouldn't be terminated yet. It's just not good for college program's morale to fire a coach after 3 seasons once again (unless he does something naughty off the field). He'll likely at least be safe through about 2015 before Brandon considers terminating him.

Great, Michigan is closing in on a full decade of mediocrity while attempting to maintain it's 1A image. Guess what? Every recruit from now on is only going to remember middling to bad Michigan football, on par or worse than Michigan State. It's amazing that we're holding onto these recruits even now.

There are very few coaches knows both X and O. Including Saban, Meyer, you name it. I don't have problem on relying on the OC to do the job, but HC needs to guide the OC during the game, and make critical call. More importantly, he needs to find a better OC and co. to have good game plan and player development, Al Borges and co. failed in the past 3 years. On the other hand, Greg Mattison is doing pretty good, our defense will stablize in the next few years.

I've been saying it for the past few weeks now. I think next weekend is going to be a whole new low for us. I think OSU is going to put 40 or more on us and we'll be lucky to sniff the red zone. If you look at the actual match ups from a stats standpoint, man this one is going to be all kinds of ugly.

I could see like 52-13, mainly because the defense will be put in shitty positions time and time again by a great offense and our own terrible offense's ineptitude. And we get 7 from a fumble return TD. This is going to be bad. Really, really bad.

I flipped after Nebraska, actually. I see the problems a bit differently than others, and I think a lot of people waaaay oversimplify things and try to deal in the reality that the actual decision-makers deal with, but Michigan's production against average B1G opponents is inexcusable regardless of the actual cause.

I think the largest failure, by far, has been the OL; a good OL would mask the issues in other areas. But Michigan's growing inability to execute anything speaks to wider issues that cannot be ignored. And fit into a pattern that has been seen at places like Auburn.

I'm pretty much with you step-for-step, right down to Nebraska, and in the belief that no matter what occurs (unless we hang 40 on OSU in regulation somehow) Borges must go, and, really, entire offensive staff has to go. New OC can re-hire who he wants, if they're most qualified/best fit, from the current staff after they've been let go first. This has to end.

That was the leading indicator. Michigan should have man-handled them, and they didn't. After that game I argued against the "a W is a W" argument ... because it wasn't. The way that W was achieved was a loud warning signal that something was very, very wrong.

Anyone that did that shoud have been criticized. While it is true that Akron was a bad bad sign, there was no coherent case, at all, to be made for firing Borges back then. Now the case is obvious, but then it was only a warning sign.

"Before I could pull the trigger, I was hit by lightning, and bitten by a cobra."

Does Michigan's offense have the tools to be good? I think our player development has been horrific. I see players dropping passes, missing blocks and assignments, making poor decisions and DG is getting worse. He played an awful game. That is on the coaching staff.

"A flute with no holes is not a flute. A donut with no hole is a danish"

Of course it has the tools. Funchess has emerged as a dangerous receiver (credit the coaches for moving him!) and Gallon is much better than we could expect given his tools. We have a 5-star RB and an experienced senior RB who has proven to be capable of rushing for 1000 yards. We have two future NFL tackles, one of whom could be starting in the NFL right now if he wanted. We have young but quite talented interior linemen. And our quarterback has great physical tools, good intelligence and work ethic (nobody graduates in three years by accident) and has proven his ability to be brilliant when properly equipped.

Ya lets brush off the other circumstance too. Like the 2008 team which lost every skill position on offense from 2007. Let's ignore that Michigan's record improved every year under RR while under Hoke it is worse each year.

When Hoke was hired there was more than one person who stated that if Hoke had the same record in year three that RR did he would be gone as well. Well, here we are.

"This is a program in transition, this is a program that's going back to hard-nosed, big-boy football," Brandon said. "We're in the process of putting the pieces in place to afford us to do that consistently and effectively.

I guess you could say that, if you ignore that we went 9-4 the year before RR got here and then fell off a cliff to 3-9 his first year. That was not expected. We were actually ranked in the top 25 going into the 2008 season. RR lowered the bar so low that year that it was pretty much impossible not to improve from there, but after three years the program was performing far worse than it did under Carr.

The worst thing we can say about this team is that it is at the same pace as RR's best season. Hoke will not get fired for this season alone, and I don't think he should. But he will need to follow Beilein's lead and improve his staff.

Rodriguez inherited a team that lost to Appalachian State and then saw Jake Long, Chad Henne, Mike Hart, Mario Manningham, Adrian Arrington, Justin Boren, Shawn Crable and Jamar Adams depart.

The worst thing you can say about this team is that it has regressed every year since RR was fired. Hoke inherited a team that had the personnel to win more than 11 games. He underachieved by allowing stupid game plans that threw away the Iowa and MSU games in 2011. This year the regression has accelerated.

I don't think Hoke should be fired, among other things, it's extremely unlikely that a decent coach would want to come to Michigan after the way RR was treated (not just the firing but childishly refusing to give him a bowl ring).

As I sit here watching Arizona beating Oregon 35-9 I wonder where Michigan would be if Brandon had honored the contract with RR.

"This is a program in transition, this is a program that's going back to hard-nosed, big-boy football," Brandon said. "We're in the process of putting the pieces in place to afford us to do that consistently and effectively.

against a much better schedule and he was improving clearly....Iowa is a bad to terrible team and MSU is mediocre, penn state is awful, Nebraska is a bad team. This is the worst season of Michigan football ever.

You really didn't have to delete the "Fire Borges Open Thread" thread. Sometimes I think you're taking this modding job too seriously -- this is a blog, after all, and we came here because we are pulled in by Brian's wit and humor. You are turning it into corporate america.

"It would be a travesty, it would be ridiculous to all of a sudden come back and get the feeling back, get the health back, feel good again and then all of a sudden go throw some other colors on my shirt and go coach."

it may be because they are uncomfortable with the plays. I'm not sure what is getting added week to week. I do think the base + play expansion concept is not meshing with the personnel who are moving around. Think about the Funchess-is-a-tight end-no-he's-a-wide receiver-but-let's-let-him-play-tight. Really a mess.

Join us. I've been on board since Nebraska when I realized his irritating responses in interviews were more than just coach speak but reflected coach ineptitude. We had 6 yards in the 2nd half before that last drive and I'm sure Hoke will say the play calling was fine. At least RR's teams were improving and Denard looked better each season. Bye bye Hoke. I hope you enjoy play calling from home soon.

I think what has been said the past 4 weeks can be said again. Borges needs to go. If Hoke doesnt do it, Brandon needs to. If no one makes a move, be prepared for angry alumni and their lack of donations.... then the move will be made.

Tough Loss, Defense played very well. What can you do? They played hard and I am sure they gave it their all.

There really is something to be said for the defense struggling because the offense was so putrid. No confidence that the other half of your team can actually help you. As a Chicago Bears fan, this team is ALL too reminiscent for bears early 2000 teams, with an OC of John Shoop (current OC of Purdue).

Just make it end. Happiness is a dying star right now. They explosion next week will be spectacular.

Ha, I'm a bears fan and I've made that exact reference to the John Shoop era. It feels exactly the same. The worst part was that for both teams, whenever there was a rare moment the offense did open things up and try some new stuff, it worked! But its like both Shoops and Borges then think "Whoa whoa whoa. That worked once because the D didn't expect it. Now lets get back to running into 9 man fronts in the hopes of setting up one PA pass 7 plays from now".

But I would only fault Al on about 8 calls today, better than the usual 15-20... This team is a shitshow. It's the coaches, players, trainers, the whole frickin team... How could anyone expect the d to hold up any longer after the O kept it up with the 3 and outs? How could we expect a 14 point lead to be enough on the road at the half? It's like we played well during the first half, then said ok Iowa, it's your turn, then watched as they took the game away.

Last week I thought we had no business winning that game the way we played. This week I feel we had no business losing this game we had our foots on their throat and let up.

I'll give you 8 with one comment--we ran at least 8 times from the I and, AS ALWAYS, got less than a yard each time. There is no reason EVER for this team to even once run from the I. We have never, ever, had the smallest level of success there, yet we keep doing it. Guh.

"Before I could pull the trigger, I was hit by lightning, and bitten by a cobra."

I'm actually pretty worried about next week. I really think that we could be looking down the wrong end of a shutout next week. I think this game just justifies all the worries. Whether play calling or shitty players, we just plan suck something aweful on offense and have no idea how to uh, well be an offense. It's not something that'll be fixed over a couple of weeks of bowl prep. Michigan fans...It's going to be a long offseason!!!

Going 11-2 our first year was the worst thing that could have happened to us. Because now, we give the coaches so much lee-way and rope to explain by means of youth, inexperience and the implementation of a pro-style offense to be excuses to why we lose to teams like PSU, Iowa and Nebraska whose rosters can't compare to ours. The coaches, particularly Borges, haven't done a thing in my opinion to justify their income. Since Akron, how content are you with the teams progression and style of play? Since Akron, can you honestly say that we are headed in the right direction? Next Saturday, we will be out coached, schemed and out played by our bitter rival for the 10th time in 11 years. We've lost to State 5 out of the past 6. This program is nothing but a relic, of what it used to be. It is almost like when Bo died, the ability to be competent and win died with him.

Sorry, but this is so much bullshit on so many levels, and such sentiment expressed in Brodie's thread a couple of weeks ago.

First, "we" didn't go 11-2 in our 1st year, Hoke went 11-2 in his first year at Michigan. And he did it exclusively with Rodriguez' players. The trajectory was there, and Rodriguez stated, long before he was fired, that he expected a great year.

All that first year do was paper over what was a very uninspiring hire. There was no major program in the country that EVER considered Hoke a viable candidate to coach their program at the time.

None.

Hoke was a mediocre hire but was provided with far more resources than Rodriquez ever was for assistant coach hires. The team has regressed to what he is (which, at Michigan, a coach is spotted a few wins, so mediocre is 8-5). None of this is surprising.

Next week will be painful for the team. But next year, with OSU, MSU and Notre Dame all on the road? A record of 9-4 is the most optimistic, with 8-5 probably the most optimistic. And 8-5 is what Michigan is. That is what Hoke's hire was all about, not 11-2.

Rodriquez' hire was a swing for the fences, Hoke's was an attempted bunt single.

they were outplayed. They once again had plays out there to be made and they miss a block or drop the ball or cut right when the lane was left. And the same is true of the defense. Mattison comes out of the locker room for the second half and says they can't give up any big plays...and they promptly give up a big play.

Maybe that's the problem with this staff. They try so hard to prevent mistakes they paralyze the players.

Of course there were plays to be made. Unless a team is playing baby seal U. it almost always leaves plays on the field. Perfect execution is a myth. Are we executing less often than most teams? Absolutely. But it's not all about talent. This offense is far more talented than the 2008 team and the play has been as bad or worse than that team that had every legitimate excuse in the book for why it sucked. At some point you have to simply accept the obvious explanation: our coaching staff, at least on the offensive side of the ball, is not very good.

No ones allowed to talk about firing Borges around here. Its clear he or the entire offensive coaching staff is not capable of putting together a gameplan that allows this team to succeed. It really seems like a combination of lazy play calling and poor decisions by multiple players on any given play.

The fatso calling plays does this against every good defense. They do the same thing and he has nothing to counter a good blitzing defense or just any thing at all. He runs all the same plays and has zero creativity. He is the dumbest OC Michigan has ever had. There is a reason everywhere he goes he doesn't stay long. ITS BECAUSE HE SUCKS.

all the apologists basically keep saying, "but the players are just so bad..." It's the same sorry excuse we heard during the RR years. Good coaches and good coordinators have done a lot more with a lot less than what we have right now.

I think back to when Hoke was hired. It was a bold call at the time that at first seemed to have paid off because even though Hoke himself wasn't necessarily a great football mind, he's a great guy, great recruiter, and could attract top coaches to handle the x's and o's.

But to be that kind of Les Miles-type coach, whose role is sort of caretaker and general face of the program, you have to make the tough calls with your coaches. I would never want to be LSU, ever, but you look at that approach, they cycled through coordinators constantly, trying to find something that worked, and they never had things as bad as this.

If Hoke cant do this right here and now, it speaks very poorly for him

...crickets. It was bad in all three phases. The defense didn't tackle well and got run over on the last scoring drive by Iowa. The offense is still horrible. Borges needs to go, but Touissaint really has no strength. He gets taken down by extended arms, not even tackles. Gardner has regressed every week since Indiana. He seems to play scared and I understand that, but then the coaching doesn't help him either. And Special teams gets nothing going, the punting is awful and the kick coverage today was the worst it's been all season.

In, pooprly executed game, and being the 11th game of the season, that's due to terrible coaching. This staff needs to only look in the mirror to see where the problems lie. If Hoke doesn't make major changes, hie job security will be very weak next year.

A REAL OC and a REAL quarterback coach and an OLine coach are a must.

And, byt the way...get rid the legends jerseys, these kids are just not earning them.

What the mind can conceive and believe, the mind can achieve and...Those Who Stay WILL Be Champions.

The defense forced 4 turnovers and was on the field for the entire second half, essentially. Not to mention they were dealing with terrible field position in the third quarter. If the offense was able to get more than 2 first downs, then maybe the defense wouldn't have been so winded on the last drive.

Seriously, what would putting Morris in at this point do besides get him injured? Borges' play calling are dead on arrival, we can't block, pick up blitzes and insist on deep patterns. Putting in a true frosh QB would make it even worse

His confidence is shaky and sometimes he bails on a play way too early.

Nothing worked for Michigan's offense in the second half and there is no good reason to keep Morris on the sideline. I have no clue why anyone would excuse a person playing because of a potential "injury." If that is the case why even play football as any of our players can get injured at any point.

It was an improved game for Borges but that isn't saying much. Greg Davis probably called a better game, maybe, I don't know, its a toss-up.

At the end of the year DB needs to have a sit-down with Hoke, heart-to-heart and if he doesn't like what he hears i.e. the offensive coaches are doing a great job... it may be time to fire Brady Hoke. Part of it depends on what's available right now.

There has to be a breaking point. If we get slaughtered next week I feel like Hoke and Brandon will have to see the writing on the wall. This collapse due to the offense's incompetence is going to kill ticket sales and donations going into next year unless changes are made.

The difference between us and Florida this year is two miraculous escapes against UConn and Akron. That coaching staff is going to get scorched, if not outright canned, for its failures. How can we not expect something similar?

If they are truly behind him, the engineer of one of the most pathetic offenses in the history of Michigan, then our program is trouble. 9 out of 11 games this season have been abysmal offensive performances, most of which occurred against terrible defenses too. How anyone can defend him is beyond me.

May be DB does not want us to be a top football school anymore. Beside the fluke in 2011 we have not been and Hoke and his staff have continued to provide us with bad football. You can talk all about the youth you want. Other top programs seem to manage those years when they have a lot of young players. I'm just depressed because I do not see much improvement under this staff and next season will be very similar! Pathetic.

I would love to be a fly on the wall for Dave Brandon's meeting with Brady Hoke. It has to be so difficult to extract money from donors when your premier athletic team looks so pathetic. I know I'm not feeling very charitable right now.

I don't care anymore. Maybe a historically bad loss to Ohio State at home (38 pts is the benchmark) is just what this team needs. Could force Hoke into making a change he'd rather not make at this time.

You know what? You're right AND you make excellent points. Have a cookie and feel special, because you've earned it, buddy!

I think we know what kind of QB Gardner is, he has digressed through the season. His potential is low in my oppinion We need a QB that will make reads and be able to deliver the ball. Gardner holds on to it too long, locks in on receivers, and can't throw an accurate ball consistently....lets move on

Too late in the year to put Morris in there. Why put him in a bad position but there was plenty of opportunities earlier this year when Gardner was truly struggling. I don't understand the stubborness to change things up when they are going bad or just not working. Running backs, QB, DE's (no pass rush). Loyalty to a fault

3 years into this and its not getting better, even with better talent. Talent is young but some of Hoke's guys have been starting for 2 and some cases 3 years now. Hoke has to be on the hot seat, great recruiting or not!

No because he was younger then. He has regressed because he is getting the shit kicked out of him every week and he had zero coaching to help through his struggles after ND. Borges is the OC and QB coach and he is just awful at his job and you see that clearly every Saturday.

Honestly, I wonder if Rich Rod or Hoke are worse. I think Gerg was undermined by RR's insistence to run the 3-3-5. Hoke seems to not know anything about the offense and lets Borges do anything he wants even though it's the worst anyone here can imagine.

I generally like Hoke, but maybe he is in over his head. If he's the CEO, yes defend your staff, but make the hard decisions and find someone who can do the job or your business will go under.

I remember how frustrated we were with Carr's conservative playcalling and predictability. He had amazing talent that could beat people up until he faced teams just as talented and then it was a dogfight, often undone by some crazy play by a heisman candidate bucknut.

Timeout usage was poor too. Lots of strategic errors on top of the horrific mismanagement of the offense.

Mattison got too cute on a key third down on their go ahead drive, too. To be fair, he at least blew up a number of third and shorts with well timed slants and his blitzes generated two of the turnovers, including a touchdown.

Just... frustrated at this point. This offense is less fun to watch than the '08 offense, which at least had the excuse of basically having no talent.

Next week is going to be a little rough. Meyer will show us absolutely no mercy, and will try to hang 100 on us if he can. If we got out-coached today, what does that say about what's going to, in all likelihood, happen next week?

Attention campers. Lunch is cancelled due to lack of hustle. Deal with it.

Bad coaching, youth all over. Gardner, he just does not grasp the thought of throwing it away when there is nothing there ,Coaching? And why does he seems to just jog instead of tucking the damn ball and running hard!

"It would be a travesty, it would be ridiculous to all of a sudden come back and get the feeling back, get the health back, feel good again and then all of a sudden go throw some other colors on my shirt and go coach."

Week after week the opposing D coordinator is taking Borges' cookies. Week after week player execution on offense is sorely lacking. This laughingstock of an offense lies at the feet of Hoke and Borges. Something has to be done.

I say it every week, but if we want change the administration needs to see that the masses aren't happy, and the best way to do that is to have someboy rent a billboard and put "Fire Borges" on it. Also, I'm broke so somebody else will have to pay for it

Do you think that it did not hurt Beilein to get rid of his loyal staff? Of course it did. But it was the right thing to do.

He is in a leadership position. You have to make tough decisions for the good of the program. If you just want to be everyone's best buddy, join a bowling league, have a few beers, and call it a night.

What really irks me is the excuse makers for our head coach, especially the played out "well, he is a great recruiter". Stupidest statement I have ever heard, primarily due to the fact that HOW IN THE HELL CAN YOU NOT RECRUIT HS PLAYERS TO COME TO MICHIGAN? I think everybody on this board would agree that even RichRod, who according to us was one of the worst recruiting coaches (if not THE worst) in recent history, even pulled in top 20 classes AT WORST. Translation: Hoke has been exposed this year as a glorified defensive line coach, masquerading as a head coach, who has little impact on the game on the field. He delegates too much responsibility to his coordinators (one is good, one is atrocious) and isn't smart enough regarding his football knowledge to overcome it if one of his coworkers can't carry his own weight. Year four is his final year. Win the damn Big Ten, Hoke, or get your ass out of town.

I am not sure how anyone can think the program is headed in the right direction. However I don't think there is anyone better out there that would take this job. We are stuck with Hoke and David Brandon doesn't care.

"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention."

Bielema may be an asshole, but at least he got rid of his OL line coach after a couple of weeks of abject failurelast year. Borges and Funk have been worthless for 8 straight games and Borges has sucked in every big game except for OSU 11 since he has been here. I just don't think hoke is very bright. He can recruit. I doubt he does anything on a game to game coaching basis that actually helps the team. Thus, 2 of 3 (HC, OC, DC) span the coaching aptitude range from absolutely worhtless (hoke) to actively making the team worse (borges). Hey at least michigan is charging outrageous ticket prices to pay their fat asses.

Borges is the worst play caller I have ever seen. There is absolutely no continuity or theme to his offense - just a random collection of seemingly ill-timed plays. There is no way our players are just this bad!!

Not looking forward to next week. OSU will look to embarrass us because they need the style points. Our D, will keep us in it for a half at best.... but eventually after all the 3 and outs they will roll us by 4 or 5 touchdowns....easy. I hope I'm not right but the odds are not in our favor.

...let me gather my thoughts before I say something irrational, since I'm supposed to "tread lightly". The offensive production of this team, especially from week 3 to now (Indiana excluded) has been pathetic. We rarely have long, time consuming, defense draining drives. We try to run dive, iso and power up the gut against 8 and 9 man fronts and expect good results. Most negative plays in the nation. Lack of adjustments. Poor player development. Before today we hadnt scored a regulation td since Nebraska. This is the worst offense I've seen from Michgian, and before someone uses some stats from like the 50's, fuck off. Fuck Borges, fuck Funk, fuck Fred Jackson for not teaching these backs to pass protect better.

I think a lot of us were weary of the Hoke hire, but getting Mattison and then the 2011 season just disarmed our correct reservations. An elite CEO-style coach is already planning his next OC and I doubt Hoke is doing that.

did you guys watch the same game I did? This is all on the players. Throw the fucking ball, catch the fucking ball, run the fucking ball, hold the fucking ball and don't run backwards. You keep blaming Borges, but the players did not do their part. This is on the players period! All game, not just the 2nd half.

I respectfully disagree. Players drop passes and make little mistakes in every game. The issue is that our scheme only seems to generate handful of good plays per game and when someone drops the ball it a just gets magnified. These mistakes kill drives and turn TDs into FGs. They don't explain 158 total yards of offense.

Perfectly stated. In the Liveblog I said "If our WR's caught 100% of the passes thrown to them, and the OL never missed a block, Borges would be a genius." My point was that no teams' players will ever execute perfectly, and if that's what it takes for your offense to succeed, then it's simply not a viable offense.

I understand, but today it was the snowball effect. I don't think we're just worried about yardage here. How many dropped passes would've been first downs and kept the drive alive? I don't back Borges or Funk and wouldn't mind if they're gone after this year. Game in and game out we blame the coaches, when today I feel it is completely on the players. They were put in a position to make the play but didn't. So when Hoke comes out during post game and says his usual, "We didn't execute" I will agree this time. Tough year this year. Hydrate and press on.

Hoke is going to be only as good as the coaches he is surrounded by. Such is personal life and business life. Michigan has unlimited funds and we should start shaking our money tree at some well qualified, already employed, OC, OL and QB coaches. Fuck the bullshit!

I remember watching Brady in his initial press conference way back when and thinking the same thing, but then I watched the reactions of everyone else watching it, and they loved him! So I figured my judgment was poor. I did then try to have an open mind, but now can't shake my initial response.

The season ended for me today. No point in even watching next week's public execution. Changes need to be made. However, none will be forthcoming. Michigan... aka... the Exxon Valdez, will stay the course.

I'm done with this shit. I'm not renewing my season tickets. It's to painful to watch this bullshit. This team is underachieving and nothing against the players to the team, the coaches are just not good. I'll watch and support from my tv, but spending $1,000's to watch this product in person is not worth it. Not at all.

I have been a Hoke supporter, however, while the offense is indeed horrible, this team and last years team did not improve, neither have been properly prepared for games and , the entire staff is regularly out coached . There are player issues, but there is talent. It's up to coaches to get. a QB in place that can lead and win. The biggest issue is these players are not playing anywhere near their capabilities- that'd coaching. Yeah, the defense is better than the offense, but still poor in many phases such that Mattison is not the savior everyone thinks. Time to make the change because this staff is not moving forward, they are moving backward. Next week will deal the deal.

As the brain ages, it is much less willing to meet the world halfway. Instead of easily re-molding itself to accommodate new kinds of inputs, the older brain is more constrained - a biological truth known to anyone who’s struggled to pick up a new language later in life. While many processes contribute to this change in the brain’s learning potential, scientists believe that some of the changes are brought about by the gradual accumulation of molecules, like Lynx1, that limit the brain’s adaptability.

Bo Schembechler never lost more than 3 games in one year in conference.

Gary Moeller never lost more than 3 games in one year in conference.

Lloyd Carr never lost more than 3 games in one year in conference.

That covers Michigan football between 1969 and 2007. Hoke and Rodriguez have had more than 3 losses in conference every year except two since 2007, despite the Big ten being at it's weakest point over that period. We need a coach who can win in conference. Every year, no matter what.

Hoke: 3 total bowl games (2 in NYD); RR: 1 total bowl game (1 on NYD, amazingly)

Hoke: 4-5 vs rivals (assuming loss next week); RR: 2-7 vs rivals

The problem is that Hoke has gone down hill. 11-2; 8-5; 7-6???. RR was actually trending upward and you could argue that Hoke's 11-2 was with RR's players. The important items such as winning Big Ten titles and beating MSU and OSU - they are both big fails. And with the way MSU and OSU are playing, my question to the fan base - and Dave Brandon - is: do you think Hoke is the man to get us where we need to go? If the answer is yes, then we stay the course and hope young players improve and maybe make some tweaks to the staff. If not, then who is and let's go out and get that person, no matter the cost. After all, Stephen Ross didn't donate $100M to the athletic department for what we are currently displaying.

I think that, yes, some questionable play calling, but I think we are fooling ourselves thinking that a coaching change would make the difference. Coaching doesn't drop passes, get beat on the line, or dive short of first down to avoid a hit. 2013 is the first time I can remember a Michigan team, as a whole, that has been more disrespectful of those who came before them. It scares me too because that is the traits the young kids will take away from this season.

I can deal with being out talented like 2008, but I can't remember being out classed so badly.

At least he has an excuse after losing his top two linebackers during the game. Gedeon wasn't ready and bolden is just average. Probably Iowa's defense last year would have looked better if their top two linebackers were not out. This is all on Borges, Brady Marinelli, and the offense. Literally the worst offense (maybe tied with Purdue) in the Big 10 right now. Youth or not, there is no excuse. They are just horrible at their jobs. You could probably bring in a high school coordinator off the street and be as effective as borges. Just an utter waste of talent.

I don't think his idea of fun in his older years is trying to keep Michigan as a 7-5 and 8-4 team. There's going come a point where he says this is not worth it, I thought we were going to be a great team and we are far from that.

It is no longer just Al. Al is his guy. Coaches are supposed to know talent, that includes your staff. This is all Hoke now. Even in the "good" years, Borges was turned into the other D-coordinator's bitch (Va tech, MSU every f-ing time, now mighty Iowa, Awesome Nebraska, we could go on here). Loyalty needs to be earned. Fix this or both be gone.

I'm wondering where all those former players are who call themselves "Michigan Men," and who openly criticized the sitting staff in the media, saying (among other things) that you have to run a pro-style to win in the B1G. Now, spread-based Ohio is clearly the class of the league while we are struggling to gain yards against defenses with average talent and coaching.

The term Michigan Man lost pretty much all meaning in those three years, when they were torching the wrong guy, the guy whose worst quality was excessive loyalty, keeping his d-backs coach while losing a good D-coordinator and picking up the GERG.

The real punking should have been and should still be on Lloyd who left the program without a successor after 30 years in the program and 15 as Head Coach, and without players by failing to recruit and then helping guys transfer when he quit.

The problem with Hoke is that he is now in a league with real coaches, most of whom are better than he is.

He is one lucky hire (Mattison) from very probably being fired; Mattison has masked his general incompetence.

The team has been fairly lucky along the way: 9/10 times they lose both of the last two games against Northwestern, for example.

We are headed for the defining game of Hoke's tenure, which seems like a likely a** whooping against OSU.

At that point, Brandon is in a VERY BAD position. Stick with Hoke, and next year is a hot seat year, no matter what you say; fire him and it's rebuilding time again.

In some years we'll likely look back at this hire as an over-reaction to the culture mismatch that was RichRod. Yes, it was great to get someone who "got" Michigan; unfortunately, they picked the wrong guy. You know, Bo figured out how to be a Michigan man all on his own, and hopefully the next guy will too.

I feel bad for the players - they work too hard to be let down like this by overpaid mediocre coaches.

Finally, for all of you morons who are trying to blame DG, go hide under a rock. I don't care who is back there, this offense is incoherent and under-coached. Joe Montana himself would be curdled up in a little ball.

They died for their country: Swayze, Howell, Sheen. They died as Wolverines. But they killed a lot of the Reds, so there is that.