1. The Book of the Wars of the Lord: We can read about this book in (Bible) Numbers 21:14.

2. The Book of Jasher: We read about this book in Joshua 10:13. This book is also mentioned in II Samuel, 1:18.

3. Three books of Solomon: The first book contained one thousand and five Psalms, the second described the history of creation, and the third
consisted of three thousand Proverbs. This book is mentioned in I Kings 4:32.

4. The Book of Manners of the Kingdom: We find the mention of this missing book in I Samuel 10:25.

5. The History of Samuel the Seer: (6) The History of Prophet Nathan & (7) The Book of Gad the Seer: These three missing books (5, 6, & 7) are
mentioned in I Chronicles 29:29.

8. The Book of Shemiah, the Prophet: (9) The Book of Iddo, the Seer: Both (8 & 9) books are mentioned in II Chronicles 12:15.

10. The Prophecy of Ahijah (11) The Visions of Iddo, the Seer: These two books (10 & 11) are mentioned in II Chronicles 9:29. The books of Iddo and
Nathan are also mentioned in this verse.

12. The Book of Jehu, the son of Hanani: This book is mentioned in II Chronicles 20:24.

13. The Book of Isaiah, the Prophet: This book consisted of complete accounts of Uzziah. It is mentioned in II Chronicles 26:22.

14. The Book of Visions of Isaiah: This lost book contained the complete accounts of Hezekiah and is mentioned in II Chronicles 32:32.

15. The Lamentation of Jeremiah: This lost book consisted of Jeremiah’s lamentation for Josiah, and is described in II Chronicles 35:25.

16. The Book of Chronicles: This missing book is mentioned in Nehemiah 12:23. (This book is not included in the present books. This is another book,
which does not exist today)

17. The Book of Covenant of Moses: This missing book is mentioned in Exodus 24:7.

18. The Book of the Acts of Solomon: We find the mention of this book in I Kings 11:14.

"The Illuminati aren't the only ones who have this hidden knowledge, I'm pretty sure that I do and some of my comrads as well do. In fact I
understand some things that are going to happen and are happening, like wht there is the mass destruction of some precolumbian archaeoligical site
here in the U.S.." -jimmyjackblack

do tell i resently have bin looking 4 the truth about all of this and i is not hard 2 believe that people are stoping the facts. but what do the
illuminati have 2 do with this (arent they gone) and why would anyone want 2 distroy an archaeoligical site (let alone a precolumbian 1 it could have
the missing link or something), someone would see that, but what got 2 me the most was that how could this happen in the U.S wit all the history buffs
and protection regulations. whouldn't it hit the news as soon as it was found??? i honestly can't understand why anyone would do something lke that.
why dont they tell us this at school mabye then we could ba a real differance and stop all the fighting.ending all this stupid wars about silly stuff.
-peace

Originally posted by Evil Genius
The last type were books that were just too dangerous to include. These were books that delivered a message that the priests did not want out in the
public. One book (can't remember which one), basically said that everyone would be saved in the end regardless of what they had done. This type of
message could not be out in the public since they would have no control over people's actions. If there truly was no punishment for doing something
wrong, then what's to stop people from doing whatever they wanted. Way to dangerous so it was out of there.

I then asked him, “Lord, what of the souls of the people who do not know whose people they are? Where do they go?”

He responded, “In those people the artificial spirit has grown strong and they have gone astray. Their souls are burdened, drawn to wickedness, and
cast into forgetfulness.”

“When they come forth from the body, such a soul is given over to the powers created by the rulers, bound in chains, and cast into prison again.
Around and around it goes until it manages to become free from forgetfulness through knowledge. And so, eventually, it becomes perfect and is
saved.”

Of course, right after this it says that anyone who "achieved true gnosis, but turned away from it" will be taken away by demons and "tortured and
subjected to punishment forever"

Thanks for listing those missing books from the bible. I haven't read the bible straight through in order to find all those books. I knew about the
"book of Jasher" and the "book of the wars of the lord." I'm guessing they were not included in the canon because the bible today would have been
five miles thick. Too bad the original scrolls were lost. I think they just lost out because they weren't important enough.

Originally posted by lostinspace
Thanks for listing those missing books from the bible. I haven't read the bible straight through in order to find all those books. I knew about the
"book of Jasher" and the "book of the wars of the lord." I'm guessing they were not included in the canon because the bible today would have been
five miles thick. Too bad the original scrolls were lost. I think they just lost out because they weren't important enough.

It's a hard read to read from cover to cover...mostly because things are a lot different now than in the beginning. My recommendation would be to go
in this order:

An account of Jewish history from Josiah's reforms, through the return from exile and the public reading of the Law by Ezra.

The book begins with an account of the restoration of true worship by King Josiah at the end of the seventh century B.C. Josiah's successors were
unfaithful to God, however, so that the Babylonians conquered Jerusalem and sent many into exile. Cyrus allowed the exiles to return and to rebuild
the Temple, which they did despite opposition from neighboring peoples. Ezra the scribe is a leading figure in the story.

Interesting if you're a historian. If not...may be difficult to see it's application to daily life.

An account of Jewish history from Josiah's reforms, through the return from exile and the public reading of the Law by Ezra. ...

I can hypothesize on why this one was left out (Assuming this is the same book that I read online). It talks about the law, and it's effects on man,
and how no one can be saved by the law, and the need for a redeemer. It also answers a lot of questions about the afterlife, judgment, and how evil
can be allowed in the world.

It was a very interesting read, and I didn't find anything in my CURSORY initial read of it that would be "anti-biblical", so one IS left to wonder
why it was left out.

On the other hand, I can tell you without a doubt as to why the Book of Enoch was left out. It very CLEARLY depicts why the flood occurred. This
ties in with Jesus saying that the end times would be just like in the days of Noah. In other words, by reading the Book of Enoch, you would know
what additional signs to look for as the end of days approaches. BTW, this book was quoted by James (brother of Jesus), and (unless I am mistaken) by
Jesus himself. It is most certainly quoted in the Book of Jude.

The interesting thing is that one of the early church fathers (can't remember who it was) said that the Book of Enoch was kept out by the very
"people" it was describing, who had infiltrated the church, and didn't want that knowledge public.

I do believe that the KJV is a direct revelation from God; however, I also believe that there have been numerous deletions from that bible. Come on!
I mean, how does a long list of "this person begat that person" make it, but not a book like Enoch that tells EXACTLY AND IN DETAIL the reason for
the flood?

Some of the "books" left out, the Gospel of Thomas being the most notorious, were left out because they are, in fact, heretical to the Christian
Faith. Others....... not so much.

I have read Esdras, and the Book of Enoch. In them, I don't see ANYTHING that is contrary to the core elements of Christianity (the law and the
death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus as redeemer of mankind). Perhaps I've overlooked something, but it seems more likely that the forces of
darkness and evil don't want you knowing those things. Sadly enough, it also seems that certain people in historic Christianity aligned themselves
with said forces, but that is not to be unexpected.

My biggest question is why do people not mention these books or not preach upon them?

because the Judeo-Christian Bible is the whole act...designed for public consumption.

think of the story from Genesis to Revelation as the 'epic' Theatrical Play and Opera...
we cannot deviate from the 'Playbill' too much or the production would no longer be 'The Greatest Story Ever Told'.

so, the lesser prophets with specific, localized, individualized, or timely admonishments can only be seen as 'fractals', with little meaning to the
larger community especially over the centuries.

next.... many of those 'prophets' & their 'books' are only worth a footnote into the larger story... one reason is that there are 3 types of
'prophets',
one type are 'raah' = 'seers'...sorta self explanatory
then there are 'chozeh'= who have spiritual internal visions
then there are 'naiby' = who are inbibed by the Spirit
(ADD: source "... write the vision.org/")

now there would be great difficulty explaining these varieties of inspired individuals to the unenlightened masses....
only the initiates into divinity schools and priestly orders need be studied on these other individuals and 'books'

I appreciated you post, it was an interesting read. One comment I wanted to make was regarding the following:

Originally posted by sir_chancealot
Some of the "books" left out, the Gospel of Thomas being the most notorious, were left out because they are, in fact, heretical to the Christian
Faith. Others....... not so much.

I'm not sure what it heretical about it. I've heard the analysis of someone who have read it that sounded like a gross misinterpretation,
but the book basically sounds like a sermon any pastor would give. I think the gospel was removed because it did not provide an eyewitness account
like the book of 1 Peter nor provided any additional information that wasn't previously presented.

Originally posted by saint4God
I'm not sure what it heretical about it. I've heard the analysis of someone who have read it that sounded like a gross misinterpretation,
but the book basically sounds like a sermon any pastor would give. I think the gospel was removed because it did not provide an eyewitness account
like the book of 1 Peter nor provided any additional information that wasn't previously presented.

Thomas is a book that cannot be easily pegged. The infamous line about immanence (I am the light that is over them all; I am the All; the All has
come forth from me, and the All has attained unto me; split a piece of wood and I am there) seems evocative of John 1, and the statement is rather
antithetical to the Gnostic viewpoint that God was entirely transcendent of the material universe.
The Parable of the Wicked Husbandmen in its Thomas form more closely parallels a dream vision in the Book of Enoch, which does lend it some legitimacy
as an early text; Irenaeas used this parable to refute Marcion's idea that Jesus' Father was a separate deity from the God of the Jews.

Originally posted by xianh
The new testament was standardized by in 382AD by Pope Damasus I.

This is not very accurate... The canon formed over the 4th century at various councils - Hippo, Carthage, Rome... The FIRST canon to be like ours was
from Athanasius in 367CE.[edit on 6-9-2008 by Iasion]

Iasion is correct for the New Testament writings. The Canonicity of Old Testament writings is not clearly established; the Protestants use the books
established from the Jewish Council of Jamnia, as I understand; The Roman Catholics have a more expansive Deutero-canon (the so-called Old Testament
Apocrypha), and the Eastern Orthodox a still more expansive one.

As for New Testament writings, several of the books now considered Canonical were actually quite controversial, as stated explicitly by Eusebius in
his book The History of the Church:
* II Peter
* II John
* III John
* James
* Hebrews
* The Apocalypse of John (i.e., Revelation -- a highly contested book)

Eusebius comments on which he considers genuine Apostolic writings from those he considered to be un-genuine (often translated as spurious).
He also distinguished between the canonical and spurrious books which were controversial but still read in the Churches from those which were
blatantly false or heretical. Thus, all of the books considered Canonical now were not in the false/heretical category.

Some books were not included in the Canon, but were used in many Churches around the world (meaning they were read in the congregations, not as a
"Bible study" or comparative literature), including: I Clement and The Shepherd (Hermas). I Clement is relatively benign, but The Shepherd is quite
a theological work (I have read it and do not myself understand why it is not in the Canon).

Eventually, the books considered Canonical were loosely derived from various Councils of Bishops, and as Iasion clearly states, the first list of New
Testament books that agrees with the modern Canon is found in the 39th Festal Letter of Athanasius of Alexandria, c. 367 C.E. The idea that Apostolic
writings were "Holy Scripture" and revelations had ceased was largely in reaction to early heresies, most notably the Montanist heresy. The Canon
was not set even after the first Ecumenical Council in the year 325 A.D., as evidenced by the writings of Eusebius, but earlier canon lists and
authors do not agree, including:

* Irenaeus of Lyons (c. 120-200 C.E.) -- quoted from I Clement and The Shepherd

* Clement of Alexandria (180-200 C.E.) -- quoted from I Clement, Gospel of the Egyptians, Gospel of the Hebrews, Traditions of Matthias, Preaching of
Peter, Epistle of Barnabas, Didache, Shepherd of Hermas, Apocalypse of Peter

* Cyril of Jerusalem (315-386 C.E.) -- omits the Apocalypse of John (and states explicitly that any Gospels other than the 4 now accepted were
false)

* Amphilochius of Iconium (after 394 C.E.) -- specifies that the omissions and inclusions were not universal including listing Hebrews, and omitting
II Peter, II John, III John, the Apocalypse of John

The selection criteria for scripture was two-fold:

1. The Church held traditionally that these writings were of genuine Apostolic authorship

2. The contents of these books agreed with the oral, written, and liturgical tradition of the Church.

So, ironically it was Church tradition that identified the Christian Scriptures. I suspect that this may make some ATS readers uncomfortable... but
it is nevertheless true. Anyone who wants to debate these points, I can provide references (but they were too numerous for this posting).

Originally posted by Eleleth
I'm not sure what it heretical about it... Thomas is a book that cannot be easily pegged.

The Gospel of Thomas was either unknown/not cited by early Christians, or explicitly identified as heretical, as in the case of Origen, Eusebius, and
Cyril of Jerusalem.

Several early authors identify that the only Gospels that were genuine were Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. They said that all others were forgeries
or mislabeled. Many/most of these were from heretical sects, especially the Gnostics, who were identified as non-Christian by very early writers (in
the first 100-200 years of Church history).

Originally posted by ScienceDada
Many/most of these were from heretical sects, especially the Gnostics, who were identified as non-Christian by very early writers (in the first
100-200 years of Church history).

That is why.

This could explain why the Gnostics I've spoken to here adamantly defend these extra books. I'm curious as to how they were identified. Was it
something in the writting? Or something they said or did in their life?

Originally posted by saint4God
This could explain why the Gnostics I've spoken to here adamantly defend these extra books. I'm curious as to how they were identified. Was it
something in the writting? Or something they said or did in their life?

Irenaeus and Tertullian wrote quite harshly against the Gnostics. Others included: Origen, Hippolytus, and Clement of Alexandria. The basis of their
arguments is that the Gnostics were not within the Apostolic tradition, and their scriptures were fraudulent.

One of the key Gnostic teachings were that there was knowledge outside of the scriptures that was an oral tradition of their own that was hidden from
most of the Church as a whole. It was mixing Christian teachings with Greek philosophy to create something that was foreign to the Churches that
could trace their Bishops directly to the Apostles.

In many ways, Protestantism has many similarities with Gnosticism in terms of rejecting Church tradition.

Originally posted by ScienceDada
Irenaeus and Tertullian wrote quite harshly against the Gnostics. Others included: Origen, Hippolytus, and Clement of Alexandria. The basis of their
arguments is that the Gnostics were not within the Apostolic tradition, and their scriptures were fraudulent.

Usually when someone calls 'fraud' they have specific reasons for doing so. I suppose what I'm looking for are a list of reasons as to why it
would be considered such. In reading the books themselves (and perhaps I'd missed something while doing so), I hadn't seen anything that
out-and-out said "no way! This goes against the Bible that says this..."

Originally posted by ScienceDada
One of the key Gnostic teachings were that there was knowledge outside of the scriptures that was an oral tradition of their own that was hidden from
most of the Church as a whole. It was mixing Christian teachings with Greek philosophy to create something that was foreign to the Churches that
could trace their Bishops directly to the Apostles.

This is a very good explanation. Perhaps it's a very subtle mixing that seems to slip by the eyes of a lot of people. I'd done some reading about
it, but your answer is well composed here. I appreciate it.

Originally posted by ScienceDada
In many ways, Protestantism has many similarities with Gnosticism in terms of rejecting Church tradition.

Whoa, hey, one second please. Wouldn't Catholicism be closer to Gnosticism than Protestantism since Catholicism included extra-canonical
books whereas Protestantism did not include them? I am totally not saying Catholism is anywhere close to Gnosticism, merely that if this is the
comparison being drawn then Protestantism seems to be the furthest point, not the nearest. To the credit of the Catholic church, when something is
declared a "heresy" it is dropped like a hot brick. Protestants seem to deliberate it like a frog disection.

Originally posted by ScienceDada
Does that answer the question?

It did give me some good answers and am interested in your perspectives. I feel like we can have a meaningful and progressive dialogue.

This will likely be a series of "machine gun" posts. But it is difficult to deal with all of it in one setting. I look forward to the dialogue.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by ScienceDada
Irenaeus and Tertullian wrote quite harshly against the Gnostics. Others included: Origen, Hippolytus, and Clement of Alexandria. The basis of their
arguments is that the Gnostics were not within the Apostolic tradition, and their scriptures were fraudulent.

Usually when someone calls 'fraud' they have specific reasons for doing so. I suppose what I'm looking for are a list of reasons as to why it
would be considered such. In reading the books themselves (and perhaps I'd missed something while doing so), I hadn't seen anything that
out-and-out said "no way! This goes against the Bible that says this..."

Yes, but that is not the way the early Christian writers primarily combated heretics. Part of this was because "scripture" as we know it was not a
concept that they recognized in the way Protestants do. It is anachronistic to think this was their approach.

The reality is that the early Church made the main arguments against heretics this way: your teachings are not those that were passed down through
the Apostles through Christ himself, so they are an innovation on the tradition of the Church. The concept that something was "scriptural" in
the early Church (at least for the first few hundred years of Church history) meant that it was in the Old Testament. Other quotes from Apostles or
Christ himself would be used to make arguments, but so would arguments from Greek philosophers, other Church fathers, and even from what are now
considered to be heretical texts.

What constituted New Testament "scriptures" in the Early Church was based on what texts were read during worship. This was not uniform throughout
the Churches. However, the most consistent view of Scripture is not found in either the Roman Catholic Church or the Protestant Church, but rather
among the Eastern Orthodox.

Writers have identified some of the false gospels by name. For example, Origen in his commentary on the Gospel according to Luke explicitly states
that the Church only has four Gospels, and identifies that any others are not recognized by the Church, specifically naming some examples:
* Gospel according to the Egyptians
* Gospel of Basilides
* Gospel according to the Twelve Apostles
* Gospel according to Thomas
* Gospel according to Matthias

His reason is that the Church is not deficient having only the four genuine Gospels "because of those who imagine that they posses some knowledge if
they are acquainted with these."

Cyril of Jerusalem (315-386 C.E.) states categorically that there are only the four genuine Gospels, as does Eusebius of Caesarea (~260-340 C.E.), who
also identifies these as frauds explicitly:
* Gospel of Thomas
* Gospel according to the Twelve Apostles
* Gospel of Peter
* Gospel of Matthias

The reasoning for rejecting these Gospels is not given because they are not "scriptural" but rather because the Church Tradition did not include
these works, so absence from the Tradition was evidence of fraud.

Originally posted by ScienceDada
In many ways, Protestantism has many similarities with Gnosticism in terms of rejecting Church tradition.

Whoa, hey, one second please. Wouldn't Catholicism be closer to Gnosticism than Protestantism since Catholicism included extra-canonical
books whereas Protestantism did not include them? I am totally not saying Catholism is anywhere close to Gnosticism, merely that if this is the
comparison being drawn then Protestantism seems to be the furthest point, not the nearest. To the credit of the Catholic church, when something is
declared a "heresy" it is dropped like a hot brick. Protestants seem to deliberate it like a frog disection.

Protestantism is largely a knee-jerk reaction against a corrupt Roman Catholic Church; as such, it has only a derivative existence and as such, only
takes away from the Christian faith in a sort of minimalist approach. In trying to reform the Church and purge the corruption, they threw the baby
out with the bath water and attempted to make the Christian Scriptures into a sort of Qu'ran. Doing this was not Christian, and it broke with the
faith handed down once for all to the saints. Ideas like Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide were foreign to the early Christians and
the Apostles, or the five points of Calvinism. It is for this reason that I state that Protestantism has a lot in common with Gnosticism. Generally,
Protestant holiness relates to how much time you spend reading, studying, and learning "The Bible."

Defending such a position is really impossible to do successfully, because "The Bible" is not a mimeograph or a "download" from heaven written
through an automaton. It is a collection of books that the Church recognizes through the Christian Tradition as genuine Apostolic writings, or
writings that Christ and his Apostles recognized from the Tradition of Israel as bearing witness to the truth.

Originally posted by saint4GodWhoa, hey, one second please. Wouldn't Catholicism be closer to Gnosticism than Protestantism
since Catholicism included extra-canonical books whereas Protestantism did not include them? I am totally not saying Catholism is anywhere close to
Gnosticism, merely that if this is the comparison being drawn then Protestantism seems to be the furthest point, not the nearest. To the credit of
the Catholic church, when something is declared a "heresy" it is dropped like a hot brick. Protestants seem to deliberate it like a frog
disection.

The problem with Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy is that many of the claims to Tradition cannot be verified, or can be traced to later times.
This is often what Protestants react to, which is often a reasonable argument. However, to ignore the Tradition which is evidenced by the Early
Church is ludicrous, especially in light of the fact that "scripture" was not even defined or identified for 300+ years after Christ.

Thus, to hold to Sola Scriptura is circular reasoning and not Christian in the sense that it is the Faith in Christ as attested to by the
Apostles.

Originally posted by ScienceDada
What constituted New Testament "scriptures" in the Early Church was based on what texts were read during worship. This was not uniform throughout
the Churches. However, the most consistent view of Scripture is not found in either the Roman Catholic Church or the Protestant Church, but rather
among the Eastern Orthodox.

I did gather from your last post that you were "going there". Good to see my perceptions haven't dulled yet

. "Here is the gem, all others are
fakes". Mhmmm. I appreciate how delicately it was said though, and as always, welcoming the proofs.

Originally posted by ScienceDada
The reasoning for rejecting these Gospels is not given because they are not "scriptural" but rather because the Church Tradition did not include
these works, so absence from the Tradition was evidence of fraud.

Surely you realized as I do that this would not hold up in any court, then or now. The church of course, being considered a more supreme court on
this issue than mere legalistic matters.

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