Different topics dealing with Jewish Philosophy, Jewish History, the Weekly Parsha and Other Ideas. Please comment, I would love a good discussion. If you have problems posting, please e-mail me at jsmith11085@gmail.com. Translations are my own unless otherwise stated. Please, correct me if I am wrong.

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Monday, June 7, 2010

How Can Anyone Think It is Against the Torah to Have the Modern State of Israel

I have been wondering this question for a very long time. How on earth can any Jew claim it is against the Torah for the Jews to have the modern State of Israel? It baffles me, so I went to look up some sources. The main literature for the contenders to the legitimacy of having a Jewish state is found in Tractate Kesubos (or Ketuboth). So, let's have a look, shall we.

In Kesubos (111a) it says:

I adjure you, O daughters of Jerusalem, by the gazelles, and by the hinds of the field, [that ye awaken not, nor stir up love (for the land of Israel), until it please]'.(Song of Songs 2:7) And R. Zera? — That (This verse in Song of Songs) implies that Israel shall not go up [all together as if surrounded] by a wall. (Rashi: Unified and with force, aka an army to conquer the land) And Rab Judah? — Another 'I adjure you' (Song of Songs 3:5) is written in Scripture (To teach that you can not come to Israel Unified with force). And R. Zera? — That text is required for [an exposition] like that of R. Jose son of R. Hanina who said: 'What was the purpose of those three adjurations? (The 2 just mentioned from the Song of Songs and a third in Song of Songs 5:8) — One, that Israel shall not go up [all together as if surrounded] by a wall (aka conquer the land with an army); the second, that whereby the Holy One, blessed be He, adjured Israel that they shall not rebel against the nations of the world; and the third is that whereby the Holy One, blessed be He, adjured the idolaters that they shall not oppress Israel too much'.

(Translation found at http://come-and-hear.com/kethuboth/kethuboth_111.html#111a_10 with my additions for clarity)

This is the text in the Gemorah that some like to use to say that Jews are not allowed to have the modern State of Israel. They go so far to say that having it is a sin. However, let us look at the sources that explain this Gemorah and I think we will be shocked at how ill conceived this challenge to the State of Israel really is.

First, let us understand how the State of Israel was founded, the UN general assembly gave the Jews land in Israel and said make a state. That is what happened. There was a vote that said the Jews get land for a state in Israel. If you do not want to take my word for it you can see the entire UN resolution here, UN resolution 181.

Now that we have established that the UN gave the land to the Jews in Israel and told them to make a state the question arises: Did this violate the idea of conquering Israel with an army? Thankfully, the Maharsha answers this question with little uncertainty. He says:

"This Gemorah is saying that we can not go up to Israel united with a strong force and build the walls of Jerusalem. By Nechemiah (Who did go up to Jerusalem and built the walls) we see that he had the permission of the Persian King."

Very interesting, so according to the Maharasha it is ok for the Jews to go up to Jerusalem with a united and strong force as long as they have the permission of the King. So, if Nechemia was able to rebuild Jerusalem and go up to Israel with a strong force after the destruction of the first temple and the only reason he did not violate the command from G-D that our Gemorah talks about was because he had the kings permission, how is he different from the modern state of Israel? Did the modern State conquer the land or were they given the land by the UN general assembly?

That is just exhibit A.

(Let me just say this. In the 9th century CE there was a kingdom called Khazaria which converted to Judaism. One of the kings there talked about sending an army to conquer Jerusalem. Apparently, THAT would have been a violation of the command from G-D.)

Next, I wanted to bring up something from the Rambam. In Rambam Shoftim: Laws of Kings and Wars: 11:3 he says:

"Do not think that the King Moshiach needs to perform miracles and wonders and create new things in the world or revive the dead and things like this. This is not so. For behold, Rabbi Akiva was a great wise sage of the Mishna and he carried the vessels of Ben Koziba the King. He (Rabbi Akiva) would say that Ben Koziba was the Moshiach. Rabbi Akiva, along with all the other wise men of his generation, believed Ben Koziba to be the Moshiach until he (Ben Koziba) was killed because of his sins. Once he was killed then they knew he was not the Moshiach. The wise men never asked from Ben Koziba a sign or a miracle."

Rabbi Akiva, along with the rest of the wise men of his generation believed Ben Koziba to be the Moshiach. However, Ben Koziba had an army that conquered Israel and held it for 2 and a half years. All the while they were rebuilding the walls of Jerusalem and the Temple. This is known from archeological evidence and from history sources as well as Jewish sources. So, if a strong and united force is not allowed to conquer Israel, how was Ben Koziba allowed to do it according to all of the wise men of Rabbi Akiva's generation?

That is exhibit B.

Unfortunately, with my limited knowledge, I am only able to bring one more Iron clad proof that disproves the people that say the State of Israel is against the Torah. However, it is probably the most convincing argument for anyone that believes in Judaism and the Tanach.

If anyone who is reading this looks in Ezekiel chapters 38 and 39 they will be very confused and befuddled with the opinion that there can be no Jewish state until G-D gives it to us.

In Ezekiel 38 it discusses the war of the King Gog and his nation of Magog against the Jews in Israel. In Ezekiel 38:8-9 it says:

8 After many days thou shalt be mustered for service, in the latter years thou shalt come against the land that is brought back from the sword, that is gathered out of many peoples, against the mountains of Israel, which have been a continual waste; but it is brought forth out of the peoples, and they dwell safely all of them.

9 And thou shalt ascend, thou shalt come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many peoples with thee.

(The prophecy speaks about a war between the armies of Gog the king of Magog and the Jews that live in Israel. )

The compelling evidence continues with Ezekiel 38:14

14 Therefore, son of man, prophesy, and say unto Gog: Thus saith the Lord GOD: In that day when My people Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?

15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the uttermost parts of the north, thou, and many peoples with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company and a mighty army;

16 and thou shalt come up against My people Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the end of days, and I will bring thee against My land, that the nations may know Me, when I shall be sanctified through thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

The idea continues with even stronger words that reveal a nation in Israel. Ezekiel 39:1-10

1 And thou, son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say: Thus saith the Lord GOD: Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal;

2 and I will turn thee about and lead thee on, and will cause thee to come up from the uttermost parts of the north; and I will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel;

3 and I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.

4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the peoples that are with thee; I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort and to the beasts of the field, to be devoured.

5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field; for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.

6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and on them that dwell safely in the isles; and they shall know that I am the LORD.

7 And My holy name will I make known in the midst of My people Israel; neither will I suffer My holy name to be profaned any more; and the nations shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

8 Behold, it cometh, and it shall be done, saith the Lord GOD; This is the day whereof I have spoken.

9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall make fires of the weapons and use them as fuel, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the hand-staves, and the spears, and they shall make fires of them seven years;

10 so that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests, for they shall make fires of the weapons; and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD.

If one thinks that the war of Gog, king of Magog happens after G-D already gathered in the exiles then they will be saddened to learn what the next part of chapter 39 says to disprove this belief. Ezekiel 39:25-29

25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD: Now will I bring back the captivity of Jacob, and have compassion upon the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for My holy name.

26 And they shall bear their shame, and all their breach of faith which they have committed against Me, when they shall dwell safely in their land, and none shall make them afraid;

27 when I have brought them back from the peoples, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations.

28 And they shall know that I am the LORD their God, in that I caused them to go into captivity among the nations, and have gathered them unto their own land; and I will leave none of them any more there;

29 neither will I hide My face any more from them; for I have poured out My spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.'

So we see from here that there will be Jews dwelling safely in the land of Israel before Gog, King of Magog attacks us and after he is defeated then G-D will gather in the exiles from around the world to Israel. Sounds like there has to be a nation of Jews in Israel to be attacked by Gog and his armies before any in gathering of exiles can occur.

If anyone wants to add their ideas or sources to this let me know. Any questions are arguments feel free.

8 comments:

If your Hebrew's good enough, pick up a copy of Rav Tzvi Hirsch Kalisher's Derishas Tzion (Mossad HaRav Kook) in which he goes through all the proofs in the Gemara that show that a return to Eretz Yisrael and reassertion of political hegemony is halachically desirable.Then pick up the English Version of Eim HaBanim Semeichah (Urim Publications) which demolishes all the Satmar arguments one by one.

However, to answer your question about how anyone could be against Zionism, or specifically Religious Zionism, there are two answers:1) the problem with secular Zionism is that it is defined as a movement dedicated to creating a secular European socialist-style state in the land of Israel that happens to have a majority of Jews. The idea of Jews creating a specifically not Jewish political entity is forbidden by Jewish law. The Torah and the Neviim make very clear that any return to Zion is to be done al pi halacha. 2) The same selectivity in reading halachic sources that anti-Zionists use to justify theft, violence and cheating is used to ignore those sources that promote a return to Zion. One could easily say that Religious Zionism is therefore a more honest form of halachic Judaism since it confronts those sources that disagree with it and answers their objections.

Where does the Torah and Neviim state that a return to Israel is to be al pi halacha?

I know that every Jew is supposed to keep the Torah, but where does it discuss how one is supposed to return to Israel?

The complaints against the State are that Jews are not aloud to be in charge in Israel, secular or religious. On top of that there are the complaints that the government is anti-religious which is VERy debatable. I mean, a government that gives welfare to people that actively say I want this country destroyed or won;t work no matter what? Also, public funds go towards yeshivos. Anti-religious?

> Where does the Torah and Neviim state that a return to Israel is to be al pi halacha?

All the places where it mentions God bringing us back, re-establishing the Temple worship, a return to prophecy and a restoration of Malchus Beis David, interspersed with the predications that the people will no longer stray after idols or other abominations.

> The complaints against the State are that Jews are not allowed to be in charge in Israel

Right, according to Satmar etc. Jews are forbidden to hold power in Eretz Yisrael until the coming of Moshiach. There is nothing in the Bible against this and the relevant sections in the Gemara are too vague to permit such a hard and fast conclusion. The Satmar ideology basically runs like this (as explained to me by an actual Satmar chasid): Our Rebbe says it's not allowed so it isn't. Done.

> On top of that there are the complaints that the government is anti-religious which is VERy debatable.

Not at all. The basis for Israel's civil and criminal law system is actually based on the Turkish and British systems that preceded the creation of the State. While Jewish sensitivities often play a role in drafting new legislation, halacha is almost never a basis for new laws.

> I mean, a government that gives welfare to people that actively say I want this country destroyed

That doesn't make them religious. It makes them suckers.

Also, don't waste your time with OTD. He's trying to bait me into an argument so he can insult me on his blog. He's cleearly haloperidol-deficient and until that's corrected, there's no point in arguing with him or Shalmo.

"All the places where it mentions God bringing us back, re-establishing the Temple worship, a return to prophecy and a restoration of Malchus Beis David, interspersed with the predications that the people will no longer stray after idols or other abominations."

That is the return that the moshiach will bring. It has nothing to do with a return that is orchestrated by Jews before the Moshiach.

"Not at all. The basis for Israel's civil and criminal law system is actually based on the Turkish and British systems that preceded the creation of the State. While Jewish sensitivities often play a role in drafting new legislation, halacha is almost never a basis for new laws."

How does this make them anti-religious?

Yeah, I know there is no point debating him or Shalmo. OTD hates you for whatever reason, but Shalmo hates all Jews.

The government is not so much anti-religious as non-religious. However, from the Chareidi perspective, the only government that would have any legitimacy in their eyes would be a Chareidi one. By insisted that they have the right to govern, the seculars are perceived as trying to prevent that and called anti-religious.

As for returning to Israel, much of it is also derived from cause and effect. Why were we exiled from our land? Why were we punished with such a long golus? If we return only to repeat the mistakes of our forbears in terms of permitting licentious behaviour, not upholding Shabbos sanctity, etc. then what justifies our presence in the palace of the King?Rav Shimshon Rafael Hirsch, certainly an anti-Zionist, does note cogently in his commentary on Chumash that the Jews are the people of God and Israel is the land of God but Israel is not the land of the Jews. It's only ours on condition of mitzvos observance.

I believe the main reason we were exiled is noted in most commentaries: Sinaat Chinam. Baseless hatred. Jews have come together in a way that is incredible. Sadly, the main people against Jewish unity are found in the Orthodox camp. I am not sure G-D kicked us out of the land for not keeping shabbos. Jews sin, but once the sinaas chinam came in we were no longer unified and we didn't keep mitzvos.

Daily Halacha Tshuvos by Revach.net

About Me

I went to Skokie Yeshiva for High School, Shaalvim for two years in Israel, YU for a year and a half and then Lander College for Men for a year and a half. I learned for a year in Talmudic University and I finished Med School. Now I am a resident.