What to do against bullies.

Ron, fair enough. Just don't show so much weakness in public, it attracts bullies like honey attracts flies. I think thats the point that spuriousmonkey was making, even though I don't agree with the philosophy that bullies should target the weak, in reality that is exactly how the world is.

Predators usually target the weakest, so while I cannot divide the world into bullies and victims, if you are to cry in public and show too much weakness, you will attract people who hate weakness and who's job is to attack and destroy it. Very much like cats have the instinct to chase mice, many humans still have these carnivore hunter instincts to attack a smaller animal for the fun of watching it cry in pain as it suffers a slow painful death.

apparantly you don't know many 'gangsters' I was related to one and yes they do beat women and kids. My mother for starters, then my brother. In fact my brother was dangled by his ankles over a motorway bridge (overhanging a motorway) when he was just 5yrs old, by this 'honourable gangster.'

Gangsters are bullies and thugs of that there is no doubt. And no they wouldn't bat an eye at wife beating not remotely.

Have you ever visited or been in prison?

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Actually I've grown up around gangsters, and none of the gangsters I knew were into beating up their wife and kids. Like I said, there are two kinds of gangsters, and yes according to the rules of their system they are not supposed to attack civilians,, women, or children. Do all gangsters follow the rules? Of course not, but that wasn't the point.

There are lots of rules to being anything, be it a gangster, be it a doctor, be it a politician, any role with status has it's responsibilities. The reasons behind not attacking women and children, or civilians are both cosmetic (it makes the gang look bad), and rational (attacking random civilians accomplishes nothing and attracts police attention).
Does it still happen? Sure, but that does not change the fact that it's an irrational error, as the gangster does not get paid to beat his wife and kids, or to bully civilians. The only time I've known gangsters to bully civilians is when civilians get involved with gangs on a business level. Yes they will beat you up when money is involved.

I know about prison, there are rules in prison as well. Gangsters don't kill and beat people up for the hell of it, maybe thugs do, but you are confusing thug with gangster. A gangster is just a group of people who join something for protection and profit, it really has nothing to do with enjoying violence or bullying. There are gangs everywhere, some good, some bad, and if you cannot tell the difference you won't survive in prison or outside of prison. The same rules that exist in prison, exist outside of prison, as the same people exist in both places, and the most intelligent of gangsters, aren't physically violent and are strickly out for profit.

You have gangs in almost every industry, legit and illegit, and they have nothing to gain by bullying customers(civilians)/consumers. You seem to thnik all gangsters are in prison, the smart gangsters never end up in prison, that's the point, the rules exist for a reason.

Actually I've grown up around gangsters, and none of the gangsters I knew were into beating up their wife and kids. Like I said, there are two kinds of gangsters, and yes according to the rules of their system they are not supposed to attack civilians,, women, or children. Do all gangsters follow the rules? Of course not, but that wasn't the point.

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Were you related to these gangsters? Were they your friends?

TT, gangsters don't beat up women and kids, men do and to a lesser extent women do. Hence it matters not what occupation they enjoy. Same regarding bullies. Additionally men generally do not brag about beating their wives and women also do not 'brag' about it so unless you were there at the time you could not in way know the extent of the problem.

I knew a few wife beaters myself, and if asked I would have given them glowing character references , until I found out later what they did, not at the time, never at the time. Charm the socks of the queen herself they could have. It is not something you can 'guess' at. They do not come 'stamped' wife beater.

TimeTraveler said:

There are lots of rules to being anything, be it a gangster, be it a doctor, be it a politician, any role with status has it's responsibilities. The reasons behind not attacking women and children, or civilians are both cosmetic (it makes the gang look bad), and rational (attacking random civilians accomplishes nothing and attracts police attention).
Does it still happen? Sure, but that does not change the fact that it's an irrational error, as the gangster does not get paid to beat his wife and kids, or to bully civilians. The only time I've known gangsters to bully civilians is when civilians get involved with gangs on a business level. Yes they will beat you up when money is involved.
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At the end of the day if you have little regard for humans enough to hurt them for whatever reason you have deemed justifiable then you are more capable of violence than someone who abstains from all forms of violence to all parties.

TimeTraveler said:

I know about prison, there are rules in prison as well. Gangsters don't kill and beat people up for the hell of it, maybe thugs do, but you are confusing thug with gangster. A gangster is just a group of people who join something for protection and profit, it really has nothing to do with enjoying violence or bullying. There are gangs everywhere, some good, some bad, and if you cannot tell the difference you won't survive in prison or outside of prison. The same rules that exist in prison, exist outside of prison, as the same people exist in both places, and the most intelligent of gangsters, aren't physically violent and are strickly out for profit. .

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So have you ever been inside a prison TT?
Your definition of gangster is incorrect, not every one 'joins' something, many start that something.

TimeTraveler said:

You seem to thnik all gangsters are in prison, the smart gangsters never end up in prison, that's the point, the rules exist for a reason.

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They all get caught some time, prison is afterall the great college of crime. Where better to learn your trade. If you weren't a gangster going in you may well be coming out.

A premeditated act of violence is far scarier than a 'reactionary' one, it demonstrates lack of conscience, where as spontaneous anger demonstrates lack of self control.

meanwhile wiki's definition of gangster:

"A gangster is a general term, though frequently misused, for a career criminal who is, or at some point almost invariably becomes, a member of a violent crime organization, such as a gang.

Gangsters as a collective therefore are typically organised criminals who are actively engaged in crime as a group activity or enterprise for pleasure and profit. The visibility of activities of gangsters can range from the low-level such as drug-trafficking or protectionism, which are prone to be 'under the radar', to the in your face spectacular, such as the UK's multi-million Brinks Mat robbery. Gangsters often run their operations as businesses insofar as they offer a "product" or "service", albeit an illegal one, or, as is sometimes the case, a legitimate business operating as a front for criminal activity.

The ranges and spheres of activities of gangsters are diverse, and frequently are to be found filling the gaps in the margin between legislature and physical reality"

TT, gangsters don't beat up women and kids, men do and to a lesser extent women do. Hence it matters not what occupation they enjoy. Same regarding bullies. Additionally men generally do not brag about beating their wives and women also do not 'brag' about it so unless you were there at the time you could not in way know the extent of the problem.

I knew a few wife beaters myself, and if asked I would have given them glowing character references , until I found out later what they did, not at the time, never at the time. Charm the socks of the queen herself they could have. It is not something you can 'guess' at. They do not come 'stamped' wife beater.

Okay, some gangsters are bullies, some bullies are gangsters.

At the end of the day if you have little regard for humans enough to hurt them for whatever reason you have deemed justifiable then you are more capable of violence than someone who abstains from all forms of violence to all parties.

That is correct, but like I said, most gangsters don't directly commit violent acts, most pay others to do it, or do so with money and influence.

So have you ever been inside a prison TT?
Your definition of gangster is incorrect, not every one 'joins' something, many start that something. There is no sheep mentality in my family.

You can start something, the point I'm trying to make is that gangs always exist, tribes always exist, and this is not a bad thing because there are good tribes and good gangs. In theory, the police are also a gang, they have a fratunal order of sorts, they dress in uniform, but do we believe the majority of cops are bad just because a few are corrupt? The point I want ot make is that gangsters are simply soldiers, a gang in itself does not mean "bad" or anything of that sort. There are good gangs and bad gangs, there are good people and bad people.
They all get caught some time, prison is afterall the great college of crime. Where better to learn your trade. If you weren't a gangster going in you may well be coming out.The world is run tribally, so all of us, or at least when you are talking about dealing with millions of dollars, are in gangs. Most people are just trying to make money, and you know, if you are dealing with millions of dollars then you no longer have a choice, you have to join or start your own just so you can operate on that level.

A premeditated act of violence is far scarier than a 'reactionary' one, it demonstrates lack of conscience, where as spontaneous anger demonstrates lack of self control.

All I'm saying is, not all gangsters are psycho and lack conscience. If that were the case, and gangs run the world, then wheres your gang?
meanwhile wiki's definition of gangster:

"A gangster is a general term, though frequently misused, for a career criminal who is, or at some point almost invariably becomes, a member of a violent crime organization, such as a gang.

Gangsters as a collective therefore are typically organised criminals who are actively engaged in crime as a group activity or enterprise for pleasure and profit. The visibility of activities of gangsters can range from the low-level such as drug-trafficking or protectionism, which are prone to be 'under the radar', to the in your face spectacular, such as the UK's multi-million Brinks Mat robbery. Gangsters often run their operations as businesses insofar as they offer a "product" or "service", albeit an illegal one, or, as is sometimes the case, a legitimate business operating as a front for criminal activity.

Do you realize that most gangsters actually operate legal businesses? Maybe gangster is the wrong word, lets say most factions/tribes, operate businesses, and certain factions/tribes have control over certain industries. In some cases you cannot even get into an industry if you make the wrong sorta enemies, as you can be locked out of entire industries.
The ranges and spheres of activities of gangsters are diverse, and frequently are to be found filling the gaps in the margin between legislature and physical reality"

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The only point I'm making is, gangs form and this is a natural progression. It's how tribes are formed, and gangs are what forms before people form tribes, and tribes form after gangs are formed. A gang might form without a proper philosophy or code of ethics and this is one of the reasons why you get a lot of violence and immorality in certain gangs, but as a gang becomes a tribe, it has to form a philosophy and code of ethics else it will eat itself. Society is tribal, and if you check wikipedia you can see about tribalism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribalism

All humans are tribal by nature, and the few who may not be tribal by nature are hermits and nomads, so in general, there are tribes which have a conscience and tribes which don't.

The other concept to which the word "tribalism" frequently refers is the possession of a strong cultural or ethnic identity that separates oneself as a member of one group from the members of another. This phenomenon is related to the concept of tribal society in that it is a precondition for members of a tribe to possess a strong feeling of identity for a true tribal society to form. The distinction between these two definitions for tribalism is an important one because, while tribal society no longer strictly exists in the western world, tribalism, by this second definition, is arguably undiminished. People have postulated that the human brain is hard-wired towards tribalism due to its evolutionary advantages. see Tribalism and evolution below.

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Tribalism is a natural form of evolution in social order. Gangsters arent by default bad people, or good people, as each individual gang has its own code of ethics, it's own mechanisms for selecting it's members, and so on. A gang is only as strong as it's members, and if it's members are violent you'll have a violent atmosphere and this is not really the most profitable atmosphere. In the end violence is not profitable as there is less money in it than in the more non violent ways of profit. This means non-violent gangs can thrive.

Further to TimeTraveler's [POST=1139328] reply[/POST] to the "Victim or Bully?" [POST=1138210]poll[/POST]:

Bullies are not necessarily members of gangs, nor does a victim always fight back.
An alternative ploy is to play dead or run away, which may be the wiser option.
If a bully's need is for personal attention passive indifference may persuade to look elsewhere for the satisfaction,
or it may exacerbate the aggression; it all depends, not to be judged from a distance.

Nevertheless, bullying is often about status, hence "the green-eyed monster which doth mock the meat it feeds on",
which would seem to me to be the case when a girlfriend is "snapped at" by a girl in her class for being too enthusiastic (answering everything etc.).

In such an instance a pat on the head and a few kind words for the poor neglected bully may be all that it needs to appease the despair.

--- Ron.

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You cannot run forever. Playing dead?
Running does work but it only makes the bully chase you, at some point you will be backed into a corner with no place to run, and thats when you'll have to fight. If you let someone hit on you forever and don't fight back, thats not playing dead, thats suicide and if you are that crazy as to not even try to defend yourself even people who defend victims won't waste time protecting you. You have to want to be protected.

I don't understand you, you are allowing people on this forum to bully you, I know it's just a forum, just pixels and text, and I know you might not always win every debate, but at least put up a better arguement than running away and playing dead, this makes me agree with the people bullying you.

Further to TimeTraveler's [POST=1139328] reply[/POST] to the "Victim or Bully?" [POST=1138210]poll[/POST]:

Bullies are not necessarily members of gangs, nor does a victim always fight back.
An alternative ploy is to play dead or run away, which may be the wiser option.
If a bully's need is for personal attention passive indifference may persuade to look elsewhere for the satisfaction,
or it may exacerbate the aggression; it all depends, not to be judged from a distance.

Nevertheless, bullying is often about status, hence "the green-eyed monster which doth mock the meat it feeds on",
which would seem to me to be the case when a girlfriend is "snapped at" by a girl in her class for being too enthusiastic (answering everything etc.).

In such an instance a pat on the head and a few kind words for the poor neglected bully may be all that it needs to appease the despair.

--- Ron.

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So if I just decide to take your money from you because I can, and I say "so whatcha gonna do about it punk?" you are just going to run away? You are going to play dead?

Let's be serious for a moment here, everyone has limits, even the so called victims have a breaking point where they'll snap and shoot everyone at their job, or snap and shoot up their school, or just physically beat the shit out of you. What you spend too much time advocating and what I disagree with you on, is that you advocate running and playing dead, and I think thats a bullshit strategy.

When I faced bullies, running only made them chase me, it only ends when you start to take the fight to them. If you run, you are fallen right into the prey position. I'm not saying you can win every battle, or fight every bully, as there are some bullies that could kick all our asses. The point is, at least struggle, you might not win, but have some honor and dignity. Stand your ground, protect yourself and your family, and people will protect you because they know you'll do the same for them, but if you run, and you don't protect yourself or your family why should anyone protect you?

There is a difference between cats and dogs, cats run away from their problems, they don't defend themselves very well because they have no pack mentality. Cat's don't survive very well when in the wild and thus are domesticated and put to sleep. Dogs are much more able ot survive in a hostile environment because they group up in packs. How do you expect to join a wolfpack or dogpack or any sorta pack, or defend yourself in any sorta way, if you post on a msg board that running and playing dead are solutions?

I seriously hope you were joking because, right about now I understand what Roman and others are thinking. I'm trying not to agree with the bullies here but geez. Have you ever won a fight in your life?

And before anyone labels me a bully. I'm not a bully, I'm simply trying to talk some sense into Ron. I've been questioning him in this way for a while now, ever since he told me in previous posts on many threads. I kept asking him to tell me how he handles self defense with this soft mindset, but he never goes to explain, he has refused to answer that question and then when he finally decides to answer he says playing dead is a strategy?

Not all bullies are in gangs, not all bullies carry guns, but it does not change the fact that for the rest of your life you will face bullies, and you better get used to it.