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The Sagittarius [Base Class, PEACH]

Sagittarius

“Today is not the day I die.”
– Alenna Rose, master marksman and sagittarius

The stars hold sway over all of us. As they revolve in the heavens, they bear witness to all manner of unusual events and epic sagas. Every so often, a being is born under a particularly propitious celestial arrangement. Such a child is sure to be destined for great things, and often turns to the path of the sagittarius.

A sagittarius is one who is marked by destiny to play some leading role in a story as yet unwritten. Master marksmen, a sagittarius can hit a target blindfolded that most archers would have trouble with normally. Placing their trust in serendipity, a sagittarius can achieve incredible feats of archery impossible to the mundane.

Blessed by the celestial signs, good fortune follows a sagittarius wherever they walk. They are knowledgable in the ways of the heavens, and can extract fragments of arcane power from what they read in the stars. The only question is whether a sagittarius will use her marked status in fate for good... or for evil.

Game Rule Information

Abilities: Dexterity and Wisdom are the most important abilities for a sagittarius. Dexterity increases her defence in combat, as well as helping her ranged attacks. Wisdom determines her supernatural and luck-based abilities, and is also valuable for her ranged combat. Constitution is important for a sagittarius that often gets embroiled in the middle of combat, and Intelligence provides her with additional skill points; always a valuable asset.

Weapon and Armour Proficiencies: A sagittarius is proficient with all simple weapons as well as all martial ranged weapons. A sagittarius is proficient with light armour. She is not proficient with any kind of shield or medium or heavy armour.

Concurrence (Su): Each night, the sagittarius receives a blessing from the stars to guide her way on the coming day. She may select a single spell from the assassin, bard, druid, ranger, or wizard spell lists of no higher spell level than 1 + 1/4 of her sagittarius class level. She may not select a spell with a valuable material component for an XP cost. In addition, she may select a single skill on her class skill list, regardless of whether or not she has ranks in it.

On the coming day, she may use the selected spell as a spell-like ability once per day per point of her Wisdom modifier (minimum 1) up to a maximum of her class level. Her caster level for this ability is equal to her sagittarius level. The DC for any saving throw associated with the ability is equal to 10 + the spell level + her Wisdom modifier.

Although these spell-like abilities work very much like normal spells, there are some slight differences. They are gifts from the stars, and cannot be transmuted or modified by mortal minds. A sagittarius cannot apply metamagic effects to these spells. In addition, a concurrence does not allow a sagittarius to enter a prestige class or select a feat based on the ability to cast a specific spell.

In addition, on the coming day she gains a +1 luck bonus on skill checks involving her selected skill, +1 per four class levels. She can attempt such checks untrained. She may also choose to call upon the favourable concurrence for aid on a single check using the chosen skill. If she decides to do so, she gains a luck bonus on the skill check equal to her class level + her Wisdom modifier. Afterwards, this aspect of the concurrence ends.

At 1st level, a sagittarius may only receive a single concurrence each night. At 5th level, 9th level, 13th level, and again at 17th level, a sagittarius gains the ability to receive an additional concurrence. Each additional concurrence grants her a full complement of uses of a different spell-like ability, and a luck bonus on a different skill (as well as the potential to burn the luck bonus for the greater one-time bonus).

Elusive Target (Ex): A sagittarius is always alert to possible dangers. Whenever she is wearing light or no armour and is not encumbered, she may apply one point of her Wisdom modifier per class level to her armour class as a dodge bonus, up to a maximum bonus of her Dexterity modifier. This does not stack with similar abilities, such as the monk’s bonus to AC.

Serendipitous Shot (Ex): A sagittarius is blessed by fate. Their arrows always seem to find their mark, when another archer’s shot might go astray. A sagittarius adds her Wisdom modifier to her ranged attack rolls, up to a maximum bonus of her Dexterity modifier. This does not stack with similar abilities such as the Zen Archery feat.

Extra Fortune (Su): At 2nd level, and again every 2 levels thereafter, a sagittarius gains a bonus luck reroll.

Destined Arrow (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, a sagittarius may expend a single luck reroll in order to reroll a ranged attack roll.

Marksman Technique: Although a large portion of a sagittarius’ prowess stems from her destiny and good fortune, she is also an incredible marksman. At 3rd level, 7th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, she may select one of the following marksman techniques to add to her repertoire. She may not select a technique more than once.

Arcane Arrows: The sagittarius' expanded curriculum shows. Her arrows ignore the effects of entropic shield and protection from arrows. In addition, they always penetrate damage reduction as if they were magical. Finally, she gains an arcane caster level equal to her class level. While this doesn't give her any spellcasting, her class levels stack with all other arcane spellcasting classes to determine her caster level in them. This also allows her to qualify for feats or prestige classes that require a particular arcane spellcaster level.

Assassin’s Shot: The sagittarius never risks poisoning herself when applying poison to a weapon. In addition, the save DC against any poison delivered through one of her ranged attacks increases by one-half her Dexterity modifier (minimum +1).

Bonus Feat: The sagittarius may select a bonus feat from her bonus feat list in place of a marksman technique.

Called Shot: Whenever the sagittarius makes a ranged attack roll with a bow, she can choose to reduce the bonus on the attack roll by any value up to her Base Attack Bonus. She adds twice this value to her damage roll if the attack succeeds. This additional damage is precision-based, and does not apply against creatures without a discernable anatomy, such as golems, undead, plants, oozes, and any other creature immune to critical hits and sneak attacks. She may make a Dexterty check against the creature's Hit Dice in order to ignore this restriction.

Close Combat Shot: The sagittarius no longer provokes attacks of opportunity when she attacks with a bow.

Expert Ambusher: The sagittarius can take a full complement of actions in any surprise round she can act in.

Horizon Eye: The sagittarius can use a ranged weapon to one additional range increment than normally possible, and the penalties for range increments reduce to -1 per range increment.

Hunter of the Winds: The sagittarius' arrows are considered siege weapons for the purposes of wind penalties. In addition, she can shoot through [i]wind walls[i] at no penalty.

Interceptor: The sagittarius can intercept a projectile with her arrows. As an immediate action, she use this ability whenever someone within one range increment shoots an arrow or a crossbow bolt. She immediately looses an arrow, and makes an opposed attack roll at her full Base Attack Bonus against the attacker's attack roll. If she succeeds, the projectile is intercepted and destroyed.

Master Fletcher: The sagittarius can craft magical arrows, as if she possessed the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat, and met all other requirements for the arrows she wanted to make. Her caster level for arrows she crafts is equal to her class level.

Master of Serendipity: The sagittarius may apply her Wisdom modifier as a bonus to her damage rolls with ranged attacks.

Patient Hunter: If a sagittarius chooses to delay her turn or ready an action, her initiative count does not change in future rounds. If the saggitarius has not taken her action by the time her next turn comes around, the previous turn is still lost as normal. In addition, she halves the penalty on her Hide check to remain hidden after sniping (-10 instead of -20).

Threatening Gaze: As a swift action, the sagittarius can mark a single creature within a single range increment of her wielded ranged weapon. The target is counted as flanked for the purposes of her allies until her next turn. In addition, she can make attacks of opportunity against that creature with her ranged attacks until the start of her next turn. The foe still does not provoke attacks of opportunity for moving through her threatened squares, since she only threatens the square it is in; not every square in the area.

Elusion (Ex): Beginning at 4th level, the sagittarius is incredibly quick, in mind and body. Whenever she succeeds on the Reflex or Will saving throw against an effect that offers a Reflex or Will saving throw for half damage or partial effect, the sagittarius instead suffers no ill effect. A sagittarius loses this ability if she wears heavier than light armour or carries a medium or heavier load.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 6th level, a sagittarius can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, she still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.

If a sagittarius already has uncanny dodge from a different class she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A sagittarius of 10th level or higher can no longer be flanked.

This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target has sagittarius levels.

If a character already has uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.

Advanced Marksman: At 11th level, the sagittarius perfects her archery talents. She receives an upgrade to all present and future marksman techniques she learns, as described below.

Arcane Arrows: Arrows from an arcane sagittarius' bow pierce illusions and penetrate enchantments. Every arrow shot by the sagittarius carries with it a dispel magic effect (either the targetted dispel version on the target of the attack, or the area dispel version centered on the target of the attack) which is activated upon a successful attack roll. On a confirmed critical hit, this effect is upgraded to a greater dispel magic.

Assassin's Shot: The sagittarius can apply poison to an arrow as a swift action. In addition, any poison she uses in conjunction with a ranged attack deals 1 extra point of ability damage per die on both the primary and secondary attacks. For example, a poison which normally deals 2d4 Strength damage would instead deal 2d4+2 Strength damage.

Called Shot: If the sagittarius attempts the hardest shot possible with this ability (that is, she assumes a penalty on the attack roll equal to her Base Attack Bonus), she instead adds four times the penalty to her damage roll on the attack. Otherwise, this ability works exactly like the normal technique of the same name.

Close Combat Shot: The sagittarius gains a circumstance bonus on attack and damage rolls with a bow against adjacent targets equal to her Dexterity modifier.

Expert Ambusher: The sagittarius can always act in the surprise round, even if she is the one being caught by surprise.

Horizon Eye: If the sagittarius posesses any ability such as sneak attack, sudden strike, or skirmish which deals precision-based damage to a target within 30ft., she increases the distance at which this ability can be used by 10ft. per point of her Dexterity modifier. In addition, she now takes no penalty on her range increments with ranged weapons. Finally, she can use ranged weapons to another additional range increment than normal.

Hunter of the Winds: The sagittarius' arrows never take any penalties from wind, and can even be loosed in the area of a tornado. More impressively, the sagittarius learns to manipulate the air to her advantage. Whenever she shoots an arrow, every square it passes through is affected as if by a gust of wind spell (no duration).

Interceptor: The sagittarius' interception talents improve. She can now intercept absolutely any projectile, including a thrown boulder, a siege weapon such as a ballista bolt, or even a magical ray. Even more astoundingly, if she scores a critical hit on the intercepting attack roll, the original projectile is redirected to target the attacker at the same attack bonus.

Master Fletcher: The sagittarius gains a craft reserve that she can use in place of XP when crafting magical arrows. This craft reserve has effective XP in it equal to the sagittarius' class level x 50. Whenever she gains a new sagittarius class level, the craft reserve is reset, and she loses any unspent effective XP.

Master of Serendipity: The sagittarius no longer automatically fails a ranged attack roll on a roll of a natural 1.

Patient Hunter: As a swift action, the sagittarius can increase her initiative score by her Dexterity modifier. This effect lasts until the end of the current encounter, and can be used multiple times. In addition, she no longer takes any penalty on her Hide check to remain hidden after sniping.

Threatening Gaze: Whenever the sagittarius uses this ability, she can mark a number of enemies within range equal to her Dexterity modifier.

Improved Elusion (Ex): Beginning at 18th level, the sagittarius’ elusion class feature improves. She now no only takes half damage or partial effect on a failed Reflex or Will saving throw.

Fateful Shot (Su): Beginning at 20th level, a sagittarius has unlocked the final gift to guide her along her destiny. Whenever she makes a ranged attack roll, she may voluntarily give up all benefits of one of her concurrences for the rest of the day in order to declare the attack a fateful shot.

She may roll seven dice for the attack roll, and select the roll she likes the best as the result. The attack, if it hits, automatically threatens as a critical hit regardless of its result. Finally, the damage from the attack (and from any associated enchantments on the weapon or ammuniton) is maximized.

In order to sacrifice a concurrence for this ability, the sagittarius must still have at least one use of the granted spell-like ability remaining, and she cannot have invoked her heightened skill bonus granted by that concurrence.

Last edited by Kellus; 2010-05-15 at 12:35 AM.
Reason: A whole bunch of stuff

Re: The Sagittarius [Base Class, PEACH]

I have to say, I love it! It looks well balanced, it has unique abilities, and the abilities reflect the fluff very well. Finally an archer actually worth playing; certainly much better and more fun than the ranger.

I need a clarification on the concurrence ability and luck rerolls though. Never mind, after rereading it, I realized that the "luck rerolls" of Extra Fortunes are only used for the Destined Arrow ability (right?). It's a bit confusing though, that Extra Fortunes comes before Destined Arrow. Why not just say under Destined Arrow that you have luck rerolls equal to class level / 2?

For Threatening Gaze, it says "the sagittarius can mark a single creature within that she could currently make a ranged attack against." I think you mean "within range that"? And what do you mean by she can make AoOs against that creature but "the foe still does not provoke attacks of opportunity for moving through her threatened squares"? Would every square within range of her attacks count as threatened for the purposes of AoOs against that target? If so, you might be able to get off 5+ AoOs against any moving creature per round with Combat Reflexes and a lot of Dex.

Another thing is that some of the choices for Marksman Ability appear far better than others. Close Combat Shot is nice but useless most of the time as long as you can make 5-foot steps. Maybe also give it the ability to make AoOs using your bow against adjacent enemies? Horizon Eye also seems a fairly underpowered ability since all you'd get is +1/5 to your maximum range for the same range penalty with no effect on anything closer than that. Far Shot is much better, giving you a longer range overall and reducing the penalty for hitting things closer to you.

Patient Hunter is a very situational ability, one that is occasionally useful on the first round of combat to wait for opponents to get within range, but otherwise I don't see too many uses for it, compared with something like Master of Serendipity which just screams Must Have. A bonus to initiative might be an incentive to pick it though. Master Ambusher is not as underpowered as some as them but still seems very situational and limited; maybe merge that with Experienced Sniper? Warning Shot has its uses but I can get the same thing for a +1 enhancement bonus on a magic weapon, and I usually don't bother with feats/class features that I can get from magic items. It should offer something else if you want it to be on par with some of the other abilities.

Re: The Sagittarius [Base Class, PEACH]

Originally Posted by PId6

Another thing is that some of the choices for Marksman Ability appear far better than others.

Agreed. I'd say merge Patient Hunter into Experienced Sniper and have the latter simply remove the sniping Hide penalty, and that should bring everything up to par; tweaking after that would be nice but not necessary.

Better to DM in Baator than play in CelestiaYou can just call me Dice; that's how I roll.

Spoiler: Sig of Holding

Show

Originally Posted by abadguy

Darn you PoDL for making me care about a bunch of NPC Commoners!

Originally Posted by Chambers

I'm pretty sure turning Waterdeep into a sheet of glass wasn't the best win condition for that fight. We lived though!

Re: The Sagittarius [Base Class, PEACH]

Thanks for the comments! Let me put your mind at ease!

Originally Posted by PId6

I have to say, I love it! It looks well balanced, it has unique abilities, and the abilities reflect the fluff very well. Finally an archer actually worth playing; certainly much better and more fun than the ranger.

I need a clarification on the concurrence ability and luck rerolls though. Never mind, after rereading it, I realized that the "luck rerolls" of Extra Fortunes are only used for the Destined Arrow ability (right?). It's a bit confusing though, that Extra Fortunes comes before Destined Arrow. Why not just say under Destined Arrow that you have luck rerolls equal to class level / 2?

Luck rerolls are also used for luck feats, which are included in the sagittarius' list of bonus feats. They naturally only have one outlet for it, but can take other luck feats to use it in other ways.

For Threatening Gaze, it says "the sagittarius can mark a single creature within that she could currently make a ranged attack against." I think you mean "within range that"? And what do you mean by she can make AoOs against that creature but "the foe still does not provoke attacks of opportunity for moving through her threatened squares"? Would every square within range of her attacks count as threatened for the purposes of AoOs against that target? If so, you might be able to get off 5+ AoOs against any moving creature per round with Combat Reflexes and a lot of Dex.

Which is exactly why it says that they still don't provoke attacks of opportunity for moving through threatened squares. They do provoke attacks of opportunity for doing things like casting a spell, drinking a potion, and so on.

Another thing is that some of the choices for Marksman Ability appear far better than others. Close Combat Shot is nice but useless most of the time as long as you can make 5-foot steps. Maybe also give it the ability to make AoOs using your bow against adjacent enemies? Horizon Eye also seems a fairly underpowered ability since all you'd get is +1/5 to your maximum range for the same range penalty with no effect on anything closer than that. Far Shot is much better, giving you a longer range overall and reducing the penalty for hitting things closer to you.

Patient Hunter is a very situational ability, one that is occasionally useful on the first round of combat to wait for opponents to get within range, but otherwise I don't see too many uses for it, compared with something like Master of Serendipity which just screams Must Have. A bonus to initiative might be an incentive to pick it though. Master Ambusher is not as underpowered as some as them but still seems very situational and limited; maybe merge that with Experienced Sniper? Warning Shot has its uses but I can get the same thing for a +1 enhancement bonus on a magic weapon, and I usually don't bother with feats/class features that I can get from magic items. It should offer something else if you want it to be on par with some of the other abilities.

What I like is that the different marksman abilities are useful for different archetypes. Depending what kind of archer you want to play, there are techniques that will help you. Everybody will look at the list and immediately decide there are some that are better than others, but depending on the kind of archer they want to make, those abilities will be different than those for others.

Re: The Sagittarius [Base Class, PEACH]

I absolutely love this class, enough so that I'm gonna save it and bug our DM to let us keep it with our database of playable classes and races.

My one thought is that for a full BAB class with two good saves and a whole suite of interesting and useful class abilities (including mock spellcasting), 6 skill points per level might be a bit on the higher side without lessening something in another area?

That said, it's not a full caster, so being 'a little strong' by melee class standards actually makes it just about perfect

Re: The Sagittarius [Base Class, PEACH]

Originally Posted by SilverClawShift

I absolutely love this class, enough so that I'm gonna save it and bug our DM to let us keep it with our database of playable classes and races.

My one thought is that for a full BAB class with two good saves and a whole suite of interesting and useful class abilities (including mock spellcasting), 6 skill points per level might be a bit on the higher side without lessening something in another area?

That said, it's not a full caster, so being 'a little strong' by melee class standards actually makes it just about perfect

It's true, I was aiming for a little above par as far as ranged classes go, mostly because the choices for archers right now really suck. Ranger, scout, and fighter are pretty much your only choices, and each of them has problems. Scout's great, but only really good for a particular kind of archer. A sagittarius is a true marksman that can make incredible shots.

That being said, I suppose I could drop the skill points to 4 + Int. I'm not sure it's the right way to go, though, especially since this class already needs good Dexterity, Wisdom, and probably Strength (for composite bows) and Constitution (for hp and to make up the weak Fort save). I'd be loathe to force them to invest more in Intelligence just to get a decent skill selection, especially since archers generally need to have quite a few skills. Something to think about, I guess.

Re: The Sagittarius [Base Class, PEACH]

Actually I think you're right. It might look a little strong 'by the book' (the player shand book, that is), but it's not actually inappropriate at all, it's that so many warrior classes don't have enough going for them.

It's probably right in Tier 3. Goldilocks would say "and this class is juuust riiight".

Re: The Sagittarius [Base Class, PEACH]

This class is awesome. I love the style of it, and I finally have a ranged fighter worth playing.

“Sometimes, immersed in his books, there would come to him
the awareness of all that he did not know, of all that he had not read;
and the serenity for which he labored was shattered as he realized the
little time he had in life to read so much, to learn what he had to know.”
~Stoner, John Williams~My Homebrew(Most Recent) | Forum Rules
/veɪnoɚ/

Re: The Sagittarius [Base Class, PEACH]

I think Concurrence is over-powered. "On the coming day, she may use the selected spell as a spell-like ability once per day per point of her Wisdom modifier (minimum 1)."

So, if she has a Wisdom of 18 she gets to use the spell as a spell-like ability four times day? And she can use spells that are 1+1/4 of her level.

"At 1st level, a sagittarius may only receive a single concurrence each night. At 5th level, 9th level, 13th level, and again at 17th level, a sagittarius gains the ability to receive an additional concurrence. Each additional concurrence grants her a full complement of uses of a different spell-like ability, and a luck bonus on a different skill (as well as the potential to burn the luck bonus for the greater one-time bonus)."

So a 5th level she gets two spell-like abilities that she can use 4 times a day; at 9th she gains a third and so on. So this means she effectively gets two 6th level spells at 5th level; three 9th level spells--there aren't any 11th level spells--at 9th level and so forth. Even spellcasters don't get 9th level spells until 18th level. This is way too unbalancing.

And to really put it over the edge every day she gets to use a skill she doesn't have with a luck bonus? That is just too much if you ask me.

BTW, what spell list is she limited to or isn't there one? If she can just use any spell as a spell-like ability then wish comes into play at 9th level and that is terribly unfair.

Debby

Last edited by Debihuman; 2009-07-11 at 03:34 PM.

P.E.A.C.H. Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly. Being nicer and kinder doesn't hurt either. Note I generally only critique 3.5 and Pathfinder material.
Please, please, please when using non-core material, cite to the books. There are too many books to wade through to find the one with the feat, special ability or spell you use.my creations in homebrew signature thread
Thanks Gurgleflep for my avatar!

Re: The Sagittarius [Base Class, PEACH]

Yes, exactly. The spell level is 1 + 1/4 of her class level, for a maximum of 6th level spells at 20th level. Where are you getting the 9th level spells from?

Hardly overpowering by that point, especially considering that by that point she can also burn concurrences for fateful shot. The only real way to use concurrences would be for utility spells. If you're depending on them for combat, you're going to run out fast.

As for the spell list, I believe it mentions that it can be any arcane or divine spell? Which, happily, includes all those custom ranger spells they made to improved ranged combat.

Thanks for the interest! I hope that clears up any confusion you might have had! Is there some phrase or wording that isn't clear in it?

EDIT: Also, I'm pretty sure I put in a restriction that you can't pick a spell with an expensive material component or an XP cost. In fact, here's the quote:

Originally Posted by Me!

She may select a single arcane or divine spell of no higher level than 1+1/4 her sagittarius class level. She may not select a spell with a valuable material component for an XP cost.

P.E.A.C.H. Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly. Being nicer and kinder doesn't hurt either. Note I generally only critique 3.5 and Pathfinder material.
Please, please, please when using non-core material, cite to the books. There are too many books to wade through to find the one with the feat, special ability or spell you use.my creations in homebrew signature thread
Thanks Gurgleflep for my avatar!

Re: The Sagittarius [Base Class, PEACH]

Big news! I wanted to make some more refinements to the marksman techniques, and had some other ideas too; so I present to you advanced marksman techniques! Now, at 11th level and later, you can instead learn an improved version of a marksman technique you already know! This lets the sagittarius stay competitive at higher levels, when archery becomes a woefully weak combat choice. Read them and tell me what you think!

As for the math issue, I made it a lot clearer by inserting the word 'of' into the sentence. Read it again, and I think it'll be a bit more obvious how it works. Thanks for bringing the issue to my attention, Debihuman!

@PId6– I'm glad you like it! Let me know how it works out!

@Almn– Maybe, but I think it would get boring after a while. This one's interesting because it has some really cool mechanics in it, like the concurrences. On the other hand, if you like the idea, feel free to make your own class that uses it as well!

I'm in an exclamation mark sort of mood!

Thanks for the interest, everybody!

EDIT: @RoC– Wow, thanks very much! I remember that class, the fortune seeker, and remember that it was really awesome! I loved the idea of a 7th ability score as luck. Thanks for the kind words; I admire your homebrewing skills immensely (cough descent of shadows cough blasphemous preacher cough) and I'm glad you like it!

Re: The Sagittarius [Base Class, PEACH]

I like it, though the advanced form of Expert Ambusher can lead to some pretty funny circumstances like spotting an enemy and then manipulating them to ambush you so you can have a first round advantage.

Re: The Sagittarius [Base Class, PEACH]

The Concurrance ability is much clearer. Thank you. Feel free to copy and insert my chart if you wish.

Debby

P.E.A.C.H. Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly. Being nicer and kinder doesn't hurt either. Note I generally only critique 3.5 and Pathfinder material.
Please, please, please when using non-core material, cite to the books. There are too many books to wade through to find the one with the feat, special ability or spell you use.my creations in homebrew signature thread
Thanks Gurgleflep for my avatar!

Re: The Sagittarius [Base Class, PEACH]

Originally Posted by PId6

I like it, though the advanced form of Expert Ambusher can lead to some pretty funny circumstances like spotting an enemy and then manipulating them to ambush you so you can have a first round advantage.

Re: The Sagittarius [Base Class, PEACH]

Ummm, close combat shot at second level seems very broken. It usually takes an epic feat to do that. I would suggest putting a minimum level requirement before you can pick it, at least.

Maybe give at the first choice, +4 AC vs. AOO's for shooting in melee, then no AOOs for advanced. That seems much more balanced. Just my opinion though.

I'd say more that the epic feat is horribly underpowered rather than that the ability is overpowered. I mean, you can negate AoOs in archery just by taking a 5-ft step. I'd certainly never waste an epic feat on that, and even with the ability as is, I don't think I'd take it over something like Master of Serendipity.

Re: The Sagittarius [Base Class, PEACH]

Originally Posted by PId6

I'd say more that the epic feat is horribly underpowered rather than that the ability is overpowered.

Yeah, the number of epic feats besides Epic Spellcasting I'd actually take could be counted on one hand after I shoved my hand into a blender. Most epic feats are either "Now you can do the same piddly little stuff you did a dozen levels ago, but now you don't absolutely suck at it" or "Now you can do the same piddly little stuff you should have been able to do a dozen levels ago."

Last edited by PairO'Dice Lost; 2009-07-17 at 08:21 AM.

Better to DM in Baator than play in CelestiaYou can just call me Dice; that's how I roll.

Spoiler: Sig of Holding

Show

Originally Posted by abadguy

Darn you PoDL for making me care about a bunch of NPC Commoners!

Originally Posted by Chambers

I'm pretty sure turning Waterdeep into a sheet of glass wasn't the best win condition for that fight. We lived though!

Re: The Sagittarius [Base Class, PEACH]

I'm going to start by saying that I really like the idea and what you've started with because I have a lot of constructive criticism.

- Concurrence should be limited to class level times per day. This way you can only use it once at 1st level, twice at 2nd level..etc. Otherwise a high wisdom character will be a better spellcaster than the wizard at low level. Also, the saving throw DC is way too high. It should be based off the level of the spell rather than 1/2 the class level. You might also want to restrict what spell lists this accesses.

- Serendipitous Shot should be limited to up to class level to prevent front loading. Right now taking 2 levels in this class is....really really really good.

- Bonus Feats: Personally, I love bonus feats, and I like bonus feats from a list that's actually useful to the class (as they are in this situation). In this class though, you have a whole lot of them. Especially with the luck rerolls that are provided. Normally a feat is worth just over 2 luck rerolls. This class is throwing out 7 bonus feats and 10 luck rerolls. This alone is coming somewhat close to what a fighter gets!

- Marksman abilities: Cool and flavorful. I recomend you change the lower level of called shot to not be precision damage and only a 1:1 ratio. This makes the class not such a huge damage powerhouse, while also not being quite so screwed if it runs into undead with DR/anything other than piercing.

Alright, on to general analysis of the class: There is no reason to be dex based rather than Wis based. You might have been aiming for that, but it was unexpected. The consequence is that these guys will be better offensive casters than full casters! With a +8 Wisdom bonus, once you hit level 17 you'll be getting 32 spells that have a saving throw DC equivalent to a 9th level spell! Getting your wisdom modifier to AC is too good. There is no cap to how much it will apply like with a max dex bonus on armor and unlike a swordsage that benefits from having a better dex than wis score, this class is essentially wisdom dependent. With Wisdom to attack rolls, this class will also have a better attack bonus than anybody else. It's WAY overpowered as is, and I haven't even gotten to the uncanny dodge and elusion stuff, I mean WHOAH.

Long story short, I love the flexibility of the spellcasting. I love a ranged-power-attack-esque ability, but this thing is equivalent to 2 normal characters right now.

Edit: I'm also concerned about metamagic on those spell-like abilites, but I'll address that when I've looked at them more closely.

Double Edit: I was also thinking of a marksman ability that first lets you reduce the penalty of some wind conditions and treat your arrows as thrown weapons in regards to a wind wall. The second level would let you ignore wind conditions and the wind wall spell.

It would also be neat if there was some sort of an ability that was triggered at night. The whole star thing.

Re: The Sagittarius [Base Class, PEACH]

Ooh, interest! Thank you very much!

@Falconknight, PId6, & Dice– Yeah, Close Combat Shot is not epic. Having ranged attacks provoke attacks of opportunity is, quite simply, stupid. It's a bad mechanic that does nothing but frustrate archers. It's not like the AoO idea is great to begin with. An optional ability to negate a penalty you shouldn't have isn't overpowered, especially when it means you have to forfeit other useful abilities. Thanks for the fielding the comments, PId6 and Dice.

@Ridly– Bonus luck rerolls are a mechanic introduced in Complete Scoundrel. By themselves, they do nothing. You gain various outlets for them with Luck feats, and the destined arrow class feature provides you with another.

@Thrawn– AWESOME! Thank you for all this commentary! Let's see what I can do to put your mind at ease.

Concurrence should be limited to class level times per day. This way you can only use it once at 1st level, twice at 2nd level..etc. Otherwise a high wisdom character will be a better spellcaster than the wizard at low level. Also, the saving throw DC is way too high. It should be based off the level of the spell rather than 1/2 the class level. You might also want to restrict what spell lists this accesses.

The limit is actually a very good idea, and prevents front-end loading. I'll put that in. It's actually something I noticed while I was statting up a sagittarius the other day for a PbP, that at 1st level it was too good of a spellcaster.

As for the save DC, though, I'm thinking it stays where it is. As it is it follows the rules for a supernatural ability, which it certainly is. It just happens to be a supernatural ability that grants spell-like abilities. Mechanics aside, the only way that concurrences will be useful at high levels is with utility spells. And those are the sorts of things that need a fairly high DC to succeed. A sagittarius doesn't have the breadth of options to augment caster level and save DCs and everything else that a normal spellcaster does. I think it's fair.

Serendipitous Shot should be limited to up to class level to prevent front loading. Right now taking 2 levels in this class is....really really really good.

Em... I'm not so sure. Elusive Target already has a limit of per class level. This feature allows for a high Wisdom sagittarius to be viable from the start, even if they have poor Dex. I'll think about it.

- Bonus Feats: Personally, I love bonus feats, and I like bonus feats from a list that's actually useful to the class (as they are in this situation). In this class though, you have a whole lot of them. Especially with the luck rerolls that are provided. Normally a feat is worth just over 2 luck rerolls. This class is throwing out 7 bonus feats and 10 luck rerolls. This alone is coming somewhat close to what a fighter gets!

... If you're saying it's stronger than a fighter, I should certainly hope so. The sad truth is that archery in 3.5 is ridiculously feat-intensive. Look at that bonus feat list. Look how many are neccessary to playing a strong archer. Look at the chains and enormous lists of prerequisites. Quite frankly, a sagittarius would have to be an idiot to actually take a luck feat as a bonus feat, because they need those archery feats. That's the real reason there are all those luck rerolls. It's so you can actually use your destined arrow class feature, since you won't be getting any actual luck feats until very high levels when you've run out of archery feats to take.

- Marksman abilities: Cool and flavorful. I recomend you change the lower level of called shot to not be precision damage and only a 1:1 ratio. This makes the class not such a huge damage powerhouse, while also not being quite so screwed if it runs into undead with DR/anything other than piercing.

There's a reason the ranger is underpowered. It's because it relies on the two least potent forms of combat in the game. Two-weapon fighting aside (it has its own enormous list of problems) archery is weak. It doesn't deal much damage. That's why the scout is pretty much the only ranged character worth a damn, because you get skirmish damage that you can apply to your arrows.

Let's assume you rolled moderately, and have a 10 in Strength, meaning composite bows are not an option. Fairly realistic, I think. At 1st level, your arrows with a longbow deal 1d8 damage. At 20th level, your arrows with a longbow deal 1d8 damage. Sure, you can try to fire more of them and you have feats that make them more precise and all that, but they still deal 1d8 damage. To be a successful archer, you need to find a way to deal additional damage. And lots of it, if you're going to fill the role that archers fill in common imagination. That's why called shot is in there as it is. It's because there is no dual-wielding power attacking shock trooper feats for archery. It's because you NEED extra damage to stay in the game. This feature deals the same damage as a two-handed weapon with Power Attack, and that's good enough for me.

As for precision-based damage, I can't imagine removing that restriction. It just wouldn't make sense otherwise. A power attack can deal extra damage to an undead because you're hitting really really hard. And archers can deal extra damage with such a technique, with composite bows. A called shot is predicated on the assumption of striking a vulnerable area, just like a sneak attack. It would be nonsensical to try and explain why I can aim an arrow at a vulnerable piece of an ooze's anatomy () when a rogue can't.

This rambling also gives me an idea for a new marksman technique involving composite bows. Thanks for that.

Alright, on to general analysis of the class: There is no reason to be dex based rather than Wis based. You might have been aiming for that, but it was unexpected.

Pas vrai. There are three key reasons to invest in both Dexterity and Wisdom for this class. Elusive Target and Serendipitous Shot are the first two. These two class features add your Wisdom modifier to your existing stat. But that's just it: they add it. Dexterity is still important, especially if the sagittarius wants to be better than most archers. Thirdly, most every archery feat has a Dexterity requirement. If you want to be able to pull off some crazy stuff later on, you'd better have a good Dexterity.

NOW. That being said, I think you are indeed right. In my haste to ensure that Wisdom would be useful to an archer, I was perhaps... overzealous in my undertaking of this goal. I propose the following changes.

• Serendipitous Shot will be per class level. I've been thinking about it as I've been writing this, and I think you're right. I need to prevent dips into this class by every archer on the planet.

[SIDE NOTE– I hate it when this happens. I always PEACH things fairly harshly and rag on people for clinging to bad ideas when they are obviously bad, and always smugly tell myself that I would never do such a thing. And here I've caught myself doing exactly that. There's a lesson in there somewhere. I guess everybody just looks at their own work with rose-tinted lenses. It's tough to be objective about some things.]

• Serendipitous Shot and Elusive Target will only provide their bonuses (boni?) up to a maximum of your Dexterity modifier. These people are incredibly lucky, but true luck makes itself. They need to be skilled archers as well.

• Many of the marksman techniques will be slightly altered to benefit a high Dexterity score.

• Concurrences will be nerfed some. (see the next bit)

I think that should do the trick, eh?

The consequence is that these guys will be better offensive casters than full casters! With a +8 Wisdom bonus, once you hit level 17 you'll be getting 32 spells that have a saving throw DC equivalent to a 9th level spell!

Well... They'll have exactly 4 spells of up to 6th level. Each of which can be used 8 times a day. That's hardly "better offensive casters than full casters". Let's be serious here. It's like the difference between a curiously autistic bard and a wizard. That being said, as I mentioned before, Dex will be more important to the new sagittarius, which limits the abusability of this somewhat.

Edit: I'm also concerned about metamagic on those spell-like abilites, but I'll address that when I've looked at them more closely.

Like the SLA metamagic from CArc? I guess it would work, but I don't imagine it would be any worse than other SLAs. After all, you're still paying for the feat (and for a sagittarius, it's not like you have many to toss around on things like that).

Double Edit: I was also thinking of a marksman ability that first lets you reduce the penalty of some wind conditions and treat your arrows as thrown weapons in regards to a wind wall. The second level would let you ignore wind conditions and the wind wall spell.

That is very awesome. And will definitely be included.

It would also be neat if there was some sort of an ability that was triggered at night. The whole star thing.

I guess. Any ideas? I try to avoid stuff like that, because what if the DM suddenly decides to run a campaign in the World of Eternal Night™? I don't want to suddenly have sagittarii be a better class than otherwise. Similarly, I don't want to weaken the class if the DM decides the PCs will never have a nocturnal adventure.

Thanks you once more for that INCREDIBLE feedback, and I'm going to make the changes I've ruminated on right away!

BUT FIRST! An idea that has been Tumbling around in my head for the past few days. The symmetrical part of me dislikes how you get 2 normal techniques and 3 advanced techniques. WHAT IF you got 2 normal, 2 advanced, and then one last expert technique as the last one? I'd need a third level version of each of the techniques, but I'd also be rearranging things to distribute more evenly across three tiers, so it's not as overpowered as it sounds. Thoughts?

Re: The Sagittarius [Base Class, PEACH]

Originally Posted by Kellus

BUT FIRST! An idea that has been Tumbling around in my head for the past few days. The symmetrical part of me dislikes how you get 2 normal techniques and 3 advanced techniques. WHAT IF you got 2 normal, 2 advanced, and then one last expert technique as the last one? I'd need a third level version of each of the techniques, but I'd also be rearranging things to distribute more evenly across three tiers, so it's not as overpowered as it sounds. Thoughts?

Sounds good, but we'd have to see what you had in mind before passing judgment, of course.

Better to DM in Baator than play in CelestiaYou can just call me Dice; that's how I roll.

Spoiler: Sig of Holding

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Originally Posted by abadguy

Darn you PoDL for making me care about a bunch of NPC Commoners!

Originally Posted by Chambers

I'm pretty sure turning Waterdeep into a sheet of glass wasn't the best win condition for that fight. We lived though!