In my notes, I have that she wrote, "The D3 you take is not "usable" by the body until convert it in the liver and then again on the kidney. Both conversions take B2. so you will only make it lower by taking the D."

ETA: Other notes, with no source given, say that benzos deplete vitamin K. A number of us take benzos, so we may be deficient in K if we are not supplementing it.

In my notes, I have that she wrote, "The D3 you take is not "usable" by the body until convert it in the liver and then again on the kidney. Both conversions take B2. so you will only make it lower by taking the D."

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Thank you very much, Little Bluestem. This is exactly what I thought.
I found it explained in more detail in The Handbook of Behaviour, Food and Nutrition, vol.1, from page 2431. You can view it with a Google book search : "FMN vitamin D"). No doubt it is elsewhere too.
Lots of good wishes!
Be well!!!
AsklipiaFFP

The abstract of this chapter by Rita Sinigaglia-Coimbra, Antonio Carlos Lopes, Cicero G. Coimbra is :"Vitamin B2 primarily or secondarily participates in a much wider range of critical metabolic pathways than currently recognized. An inherited disorder of the cellular uptake and trafficking of vitamin B2 metabolites may result in poor intestinal absorption, increased urinary loss, and disrupted homeostasis of vitamin B2 metabolites in the CNS. It may affect 10%–15% of the general population and be the most prevalent genetic risk factor for several human diseases. The implications include altered metabolism of several biomolecules and enzyme systems of well-established pathophysiologic relevance such as vitamins B6, B9 (folate), B12, D3, NO, lipids, amino acids, proteins, DNA, cytochrome P-450 and other enzyme systems, HO, and homocysteine. Oxidative stress, and both apoptotic and necrotic phenomena may be enhanced. Due to the loss of the brain privilege for vitamin B2 supply, this inherited condition may be particularly relevant for CNS diseases such as migraine, brain ischemia, traumatic brain injury, neurodegenerative disorders (especially Parkinson and Alzheimer’s diseases), epilepsy, multiple sclerosis, and for Guillain-Barré syndrome, myasthenia, and mitochondrial myopathies. This chapter aims at providing an overview of the potential pathophysiologic, preventive, and therapeutic implications of this prevalent (yet poorly recognized) inherited metabolism disorder for neurological diseases."

I don't know if you are aware of the Brazilian Study, no doubt DogPerson has used it in her research :High doses of riboflavin and the elimination of dietary red meat promote the recovery of some motor functions in Parkinson's disease patients

Full study + comments here : http://forum.parkinson.org/index.ph...oflavin-supplementation-red-meat-elimination/
I find it extremely interesting, especially the part about how patients recovering became aggressive and hurtful.
... "Because they could stand and walk with improved (although still altered) balance by 2 months of treatment, two male patients (initially in stage V (16) with associated dementia and hallucinations) started striking imaginary persons and/or often attempted to leave home unaccompanied, reacting aggressively against the relative who tried to stop them. These episodes of agitation and aggressiveness were observed less often by the end of the third month of riboflavin treatment and disappeared thereafter, but caused transient concern and distress among their family members who initially regarded them as signs of neurological worsening...."Ha! I am only at week 17 or so. Maybe I am over the dangerous period?Good luck to all!AsklipiaThis does not mean I am not sticking to my guns. I suspect all this (deficiency in B2) is linked somehow to FFP

I don't know if you are aware of the Brazilian Study, no doubt DogPerson has used it in her research :High doses of riboflavin and the elimination of dietary red meat promote the recovery of some motor functions in Parkinson's disease patients

Full study + comments here : http://forum.parkinson.org/index.ph...oflavin-supplementation-red-meat-elimination/
I find it extremely interesting, especially the part about how patients recovering became aggressive and hurtful.
... "Because they could stand and walk with improved (although still altered) balance by 2 months of treatment, two male patients (initially in stage V (16) with associated dementia and hallucinations) started striking imaginary persons and/or often attempted to leave home unaccompanied, reacting aggressively against the relative who tried to stop them. These episodes of agitation and aggressiveness were observed less often by the end of the third month of riboflavin treatment and disappeared thereafter, but caused transient concern and distress among their family members who initially regarded them as signs of neurological worsening...."Ha! I am only at week 17 or so. Maybe I am over the dangerous period?Good luck to all!AsklipiaThis does not mean I am not sticking to my guns. I suspect all this (deficiency in B2) is linked somehow to FFP

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Hi AskLipia,
Thanks for this interesting link!
I liked this part:

"About 10 to 15 days after the beginning of high-dose riboflavin treatment, PD patients often reported better (progressively less interrupted) sleep at night, improved reasoning, higher motivation, and reduced depression. Their family members usually started noticing motor improvements after 20 days of treatment, but in some cases of advanced disability the patient was able to change body position in bed at night as early as on the third day of treatment."

ABSTRACT: "Vitamin B2 deficiency associated with normal dietary intake has been reported in patients with Parkinson’s disease (PD), suggesting impaired absorption of this micronutrient. Elevated red meat consumption was thought to contribute as a triggering factor, as the catabolism of hemin (a neurotoxic substance) requires vitamin B2 (Coimbra & Junqueira, 2003). This study tested this hypothesis by verifying the effects of dietary riboflavin restriction associated with hemin administration on rat brain. After 8 months of riboflavin restriction, riboflavin deficiency with or without oral administration of hemin (assessed by erythrocyte glutathione reductase activity) did not impair motor function or spatial learning; neither altered the volume of substantia nigra or brain concentrations of total glutathione. Partial dietary restriction of riboflavin may failed to induce oxidative stress in the rat brain and dopaminergic degeneration in the rat substantia nigra as suggested to occur in humans by Coimbra & Junqueira, (2003), possibly due to an intact mechanism of nutritional privilege that preserves riboflavin content in the normal rat brain during deficiency states. Contrastingly, polymorphic enzymes or receptors involved in the human cellular uptake of riboflavin may conceivably impair the transport of this micronutrient not only through the intestinal wall and renal tubules, but also in the brain of PD patients, thereby annulling the nutritional privilege of the nervous system."

Rats once Riboflavin deprived still walk straight!!!!!But they are not fed Fake Folates like humans are and have been for the last 150 years!Enough for today.Lots of good wishes to all!Asklipia

Such a bummer. I have a big B2 deficiency problem & now I am not sure how to fix it.. Christine was adamant that i should get my manganese up before attempting to address B2 problems...She seems to be right about this but I don't know the ins & outs or how to proceed. It's a real loss to our community that she decided to shut down her business right now.

Indeed, bummer. I was hoping that those of you who were working with her could give me some second-hand help. I do have someone who can continue to do hair analysis for me, but she seems pretty clueless about what to make of the results.

I am going to take the results to my physician. What DP was talking about to me sounded a lot like anemia of chronic disease. I am hoping that my physician will know what to do about that.

- It could be that she has been threatened in some way. By some former clients? by the authorities? both?

- it could be that she is overwhelmed, sick herself. And that she has not made the connection with vitamins D and K. Dogs are not fed the same fake folates as humans, they would soon die. They are given a lot of vitamin K3. They process vitamin D in a different way from humans. Maybe she can cure dogs but not humans (including herself) for that reason?

- It could be that she is in deep anguish for some detox reason and that she has washed her hands of the whole affair. Excitotoxicity brings fear.

- It could be that her dogs died and that the writing is on the wall for those who tried B2/manganese. I am not afraid of this though. I am plodding on. If I totally disappear from this thread you will know why.

And that she has not made the connection with vitamins D and K. Dogs are not fed the same fake folates as humans, they would soon die. They are given a lot of vitamin K3. They process vitamin D in a different way from humans. Maybe she can cure dogs but not humans (including herself) for that reason?

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I was not as convinced that she had the answer to ME/CFS as she was. I think she had a piece of the answer that not many others have. If she had stayed around and been open to feedback, she would have been able to tweek her protocol into something better faster than any of us will probably be able to.

It could be that her dogs died and that the writing is on the wall for those who tried B2/manganese. I am not afraid of this though. I am plodding on.

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I am not afraid of this either. What I recall from my conversations with her is that by doing liver biopsies on dogs that had died, they had, after several iterations, developed a protocol that was highly successful for dogs.

I guess the next questions would be what you consider fake folates. Obviously folic acid would be one of them and possibly msg, but you seem to have a list of ten!

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Since you found out on your own that msg is a fake folate, here are some more :
- msg = monosodium glutamate
- folic acid = pteroyl-L-glutamate
- hydrogenated anything
- yeast extracts (Marmite, Bovril etc...)

Well, unfortunately they were fake folates addicts and were not happy with the food.
Sad but true, and it was delicious. There was between us and them the invisible wall of unshared addiction. AA bit like when you don't drink and others do, you know? Unease from their part, partly physical because they did not get their dose, partly psychological because we are not one of them anymore , they could sense that.

So it seems that just about everything processed has free glutamic acid in it, especially condiments--vinegar, mustard, soy sauce, etc as well as bacon, ham and other processed meats which is why I'm assuming your guests weren't thrilled with what you served for lunch. It also appears to be in fermented food. However, you said you drink kefir and use raw apple cider vinegar which both have will have some free glutamic acid so why does that not affect you? Do you just try to reduce the level rather than eliminate it completely?
What was added to our food 150 years ago?

Hi Blossom1! I hope you are well. And thank you for providing accurate questions. In the thrill of unraveling what has happened I am most of the time in guessing mode, which is not at all the same as writing mode, and I have some difficulty in switching from one to the other. Questions are a big help, even if I do not answer them immediately! Also sometimes I can answer a couple of questions, then I feel myself losing the connection with guessing mode and I do not want to do that, not before I have found out all I want to find out. So I stop answering, but I shall answer all questions eventually.

So it seems that just about everything processed has free glutamic acid in it, especially condiments--vinegar, mustard, soy sauce, etc as well as bacon, ham and other processed meats which is why I'm assuming your guests weren't thrilled with what you served for lunch.

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Yes, you are right, everything processed has free glutamic acid in it, especially the stuff you mention.
Unfortunately, even food you would think is not processed is full of free glutamic acid, which is why we are fighting an invisible enemy and think it is all our fault, that our bodies are faulty.
For example, meat which looks like normal fresh meat. Haha! Unless you are sure of your butcher, it may very well be injected with glutamic acid to make it more tempting.
Or a nice piece of surloin beef in a restaurant : the meat glue is so widely used that it is for sale on Amazon! Transglutaminase. http://www.amazon.com/Ajinomoto-Activa-Transglutaminase-Meat-2-2-Pound/dp/B003EX2ECM You can have it delivered for tomorrow! And by the same people of course who make msg. Just imagine how many customers for this!
Vegetables, fresh mind you, so fresh and tempting in their baskets, have been sprayed with a mixture meant to keep them hydrated, and this contains a gum that helps the mixture to stick to the vegetables, that gum contains free glutamic acid. Easily removed by rinsing them in warm water. I never did that to my lettuce! Now I do.
Organic you said? There are more fake folates in organic food than anywhere else, because they are highly addictive, and help sell expensive products. I could cry when I see terribly sick people in organic shops filling their baskets with organic poison. Oh yes it is organic! Since these fake folates have been synthesized from organic ingredients. Organic broth and soy sauce, organic balsamic vinegar and gluten-free biscuits (gluten-free, with no msg added, but full of glutamic acid!). Organic anything that you crave. To the grave.

Once you reconsider what is and is not processed and stop taking all that anti-K fake folate, you can be seriously on the road to recovery. This is what happened to us. Relapse? Some fake folate is there but where? In the begining it is a bit difficult because of the addiction factor. Even if your mind tells you not to take the fake folate, your addiction will make you choose the product which contains it, even though it is not on the label.

It also appears to be in fermented food. However, you said you drink kefir and use raw apple cider vinegar which both have will have some free glutamic acid so why does that not affect you?

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Yes, fermentation produces both free and normal glutamic acid.
However I use raw apple cider vinegar and I don't find free glutamic acid in it, I drink real home made wine too and make kefir and it does not affect me. I have no explanation, except that it may depend on the ratio between L-glutamic and D-glutamic in those. I have tried all kinds of sauerkraut, they always test too high in free glutamic. So it all may depend on the ferment.
By the way, you once asked

Hi Asklipia,
It is my understanding that sauerkraut has very little folate in it--about 9% of the RDA in a serving--so I am unclear on what you are trying to say about it to shellbell. Does it need to be eaten with liver or other vitamin b12 containing foods to balance out the folate in it?

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I think that the sauerkraut I ate (maybe ten different types) contained fake folates as free glutamic acid. I do not think it has to be taken with b12 (liver). I think it has to be taken with pork, as it is traditionally done. I don't know of a culinary tradition where sauerkraut is eaten with liver (but there may well be - marginal though I would think). Not pork meat but pork sausages and pieces of pork containing skin (traditionally sausages of different types all containing gut as the wrapping and unmentionable parts as the filling). This is part of my hunch about lessening momentarily the effect of fake folate poisoning :http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...-exitoxicity-type-sypmtoms.18904/#post-288265http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...xicity-type-sypmtoms.18904/page-2#post-289458
It could very well be that it is a case of the poison + the antidote.

Do you just try to reduce the level rather than eliminate it completely?

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You have to eliminate it completely in the beginning (at least for three-four years) because your body is reminded of your addiction every time you meet it again. The 5 first days are hard, like for any addiction. We have found out that we have no problems after 5 years, BUT and it is a big BUT, taking fake folates stops our recovery for at least a week. Given the results, you couldn't pay me enough for doing that.

I used to hope for the day when this poisoning would stop. Not anymore. It cannot stop because in this world of addicts and denial, everyone wants his drug. It cannot stop because you cannot sell anything that does not contain it, the customer will always prefer the brand which answers his addiction and commercially you cannot sell a normal healthy product anymore when next to it there are products more attractive (guess why?). It cannot stop because they even print with fake folates on non-food packages, so that you will chose a particular brand of lets say soap.

Fake folates are the fuel of consumerism. The basis of life as we know it. Because they induce cravings and reduce satisfaction, nobody is happy anymore and everybody needs more. Of everything.
This is not a moral stand I am taking, I wouldn't mind if they had not made me so sick!!!

The abstract of this chapter by Rita Sinigaglia-Coimbra, Antonio Carlos Lopes, Cicero G. Coimbra is :"Vitamin B2 primarily or secondarily participates in a much wider range of critical metabolic pathways than currently recognized. An inherited disorder of the cellular uptake and trafficking of vitamin B2 metabolites may result in poor intestinal absorption, increased urinary loss, and disrupted homeostasis of vitamin B2 metabolites in the CNS. It may affect 10%–15% of the general population and be the most prevalent genetic risk factor for several human diseases. The implications include altered metabolism of several biomolecules and enzyme systems of well-established pathophysiologic relevance such as vitamins B6, B9 (folate), B12, D3, NO, lipids, amino acids, proteins, DNA, cytochrome P-450 and other enzyme systems, HO, and homocysteine. Oxidative stress, and both apoptotic and necrotic phenomena may be enhanced. Due to the loss of the brain privilege for vitamin B2 supply, this inherited condition may be particularly relevant for CNS diseases such as migraine, brain ischemia, traumatic brain injury, neurodegenerative disorders (especially Parkinson and Alzheimer’s diseases), epilepsy, multiple sclerosis, and for Guillain-Barré syndrome, myasthenia, and mitochondrial myopathies. This chapter aims at providing an overview of the potential pathophysiologic, preventive, and therapeutic implications of this prevalent (yet poorly recognized) inherited metabolism disorder for neurological diseases."

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Thanks for finding this Asklipia. I had asked Christine and others for some sort of reference on the vitamin d - b2 connection for months, but was never able to find anything.

I still don't really understand it however. Yes, b2 is required, but then does that mean that people who get a lot of sun in their native environment, naturally, are depleted in b2? That part doesn't make sense. Perhaps it's just one piece of the puzzle.

B2 noticeably helps my eyes. I can go outside without sunglasses for 10-15 min before the sun bothers me (I live in a very hot/sunny state and wear contacts so this is a huge improvement). It also makes taking zinc much more effective (although I started vitamin K at the same time so it may be contributing too). Taking a small amount of zinc before bed puts me into a very deep restorative sleep.

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Interesting. I'm not positive, but I think that that b2 has worsened my sensitivity to sunlight -- or any light. Maybe I'm not getting enough vitamin A and/or zinc...?

It's my understanding that it's the d-glutamate that is the 'free', unbound -- and bad/unnatural -- form of glutamate, or glutamic acid. L-glutamate is one of the main amino acids found naturally in almost all foods, especially meats, fish, etc..

And according to Braverman and Pfieffer, manganese (!), and b6 help convert glutamate/glutamic acid, into gaba, which is it's calming 'cousin'. Perhaps the reason or one of the reasons that many people react to even natural glutamate is that they're low in these other factors?