The cold snap hereabouts is getting worse, rather than better, with the temps frequently below zero when the wind chill is taken into account. Seems like this going to be the case all weekend, and there is snow in the forecast for later on top of all this, so I am determined to pick up some meat and crank out some chili as a way of adding a little internal fire to our efforts at staying warm. On the other hand, the doggies are in heaven, and spending a ridiculous amount of time in the backyard... Hudson the wonder dog in particular slows down a lot in the summer, and the colder it gets, the happier she is, and this recent freeze has her acting like a puppy.

sauron wrote on Jan 25, 2013, 10:27:Good article on Neil Degrasse Tyson's speech. A lot of it is true - government can fund basic science like nobody else. Other organizations always have a specific goal - curing a disease or making money.

Interestingly, the NIH has deliberately shifted towards translational research over the last 5 years. That means research focused on addressing human disease. For people like me, that's fine since I work on diseases of the brain and spinal cord. But if I was working on fly or worm development or something basic, I'd be in trouble.

You may not think that fly and worm development are very important, but most of the genes we know about today that are linked to human disease originally came from exactly those studies. It just takes a while for the studies to go from flies, to mice, to humans.

If what he said was true private enterprise would be all over it. It's not though so it's just another entitlement plea so that someone else pays for him to do stuff he wants to do. Get a real job. I'm not saying it isn't interesting or important it's just not John Q. Taxpayer's job to pay for it when his major concern is keeping a roof over his head, 3 squares a day and retiring without becoming homeless.

Government's only job - apart from basic oversight - should be to keep religious kooks from meddling in science's affairs. Think about how far stem research would be by now.

Actually, we have a clinical trial starting next month in patients, that is happening as a direct result of federally-funded research we have done in my laboratory. I was the Principal Investigator on the federal grant and the corresponding author on all the papers, and am also co-PI on the clinical trial. The trial is likely to improve quality of life for patients with an especially unpleasant form of an autoimmune CNS disease.

Bringing the relevant multinational biotech company on board would not have been possible without the work financed directly by the NIH. I can give you at least another 50 examples of similar stories, from other labs in my field, and many, many other fields.

Your tax dollars spent on scientific research make a direct contribution to human health. To think otherwise is absolutely misguided. The feds finance the initial research which is then used by the entire research pipeline - federal, nonprofit and for-profit biotech.

Also, Research Science is a real job. I am currently sitting in my office finishing another federal grant application on a Saturday afternoon while you are probably playing videogames.

crypto wrote on Jan 26, 2013, 08:27:werd, there is no evening edition which is fine if there is none but a fresh page shows only 6 comments in this section but on opening the section there are 31, this being 32... is something wrong?

Cutter wrote on Jan 25, 2013, 18:44:I'm not saying it isn't interesting or important it's just not John Q. Taxpayer's job to pay for it when his major concern is keeping a roof over his head, 3 squares a day and retiring without becoming homeless.

this is the boilerplate motto of being brainwashed by the "system" or "the man" or whatever (the people who own the govts).. this is the subjective story people are really focused on, instead of the objective reality of resulting consequences that come from this kind of perspective

the idea that you live in a vacuum, separate from everything else - that you are master of your own domain... its a convenient story, much like lube for your asshole while they rape you

Cutter, you're usually well informed and logical, but I can't believe your position on this. Have you gone full wingnut?

Just so I understand, you're in favor of wiping from the face of the Earth the following, and saying their contributions are so pedestrian, simple, obvious, and profitable that private corporations would have come up with them anyway:- NASA (flight, rocketry, numerous other discoveries)- NOAA (Weather prediction systems)- CDC (Disease research)- DARPA (defense projects, many of which have civilian application)- All University research, including MIT (numerous, numerous discoveries in all areas of science)- Oak Ridge National Lab (Nuclear, energy)- JPL (Rocketry and flight)- Los Alamos Lab (Nuclear, energy)Etc. etc.

Ridiculous.

The only reason we have nuclear power (12% of world electricity) is due to government research. No corporation is going to take on that burden and risk otherwise. Much easier and more profitable to use coal, oil, and gas.

As for historical precedents, you're wrong. Hans Lippershey invented the telescope, paid for by the Dutch government. Galileo improved it and presented it to the Venetian government, and they instantly tenured him and doubled his salary, after which he continuously improved it while supported by the government. Kepler invented the Keplerian telescope while employed by the Holy Roman Empire.

Also, govn't research furthers science by allowing use of its patents very cheaply. Imagine if Apple held them instead.

Pure sophistry? That would be you dude, for thinking we'd be in the same place we are now without government research. Private research and government research each have their strengths and weaknesses, but compliment each other nicely to push technology along faster than either could do alone.

Cutter wrote on Jan 25, 2013, 23:30:If you think it's necessary than you pay for it. Stop putting your hand in my pocket.

I am paying for it. So are you. That's how society works, you don't get to decide how every penny is spent, some things you just accept for the better of society as a whole even if you individually don't get a big benefit from it. I don't go to public libraries but I don't bemoan public funding for them. If people just paid for things they approved of or that they liked then society would never work. There are many countries that don't do it this way although something tells me you wouldn't care for their standard of living.

Cutter wrote on Jan 25, 2013, 21:52:So no, you can't convince me that that there's the need to spend even 1 penny of tax dollars on research science.

It's a good thing for our sake (and yours even though you don't know it) that you have no choice in the matter.

Both the private sector and the government research incubate each other, we could go back and forth on cause and effect all day. They both have very positive effects on society as a whole and that's why I'm glad people with some vision are making the decisions. I don't personally care for the majority of the arts funding but I recognize their influence on society and our subsequent benefit. I don't like how every penny of my tax money is spent but I don't sit there and miser it either, some things are just necessary.

If you think it's necessary than you pay for it. Stop putting your hand in my pocket.

Cutter wrote on Jan 25, 2013, 21:52:So no, you can't convince me that that there's the need to spend even 1 penny of tax dollars on research science.

It's a good thing for our sake (and yours even though you don't know it) that you have no choice in the matter.

Both the private sector and the government research incubate each other, we could go back and forth on cause and effect all day. They both have very positive effects on society as a whole and that's why I'm glad people with some vision are making the decisions. I don't personally care for the majority of the arts funding but I recognize their influence on society and our subsequent benefit. I don't like how every penny of my tax money is spent but I don't sit there and miser it either, some things are just necessary.

jdreyer wrote on Jan 25, 2013, 19:23:That's not true at all. There are lots of reasons to have government funding science research:- If a particular field of research or project has no immediate profitable application, like the Hubble telescope or Large Hadron Collider- If a particular research field won't return profit quickly enough, like fusion.- Research projects that need to be applied to everyone, but won't be affordable to everyone if market based solutions are used, like vaccines.- Projects that are simply too large, complex, or expensive for any corporation to handle, like the moon landings or Manhattan project

And on and on. In fact, the device you're entering your communication on (your computer) and transmitting it to the rest of us (the internet) are both the product of governmental research programs.

Wrong on all counts. It's pure sophistry to say all the advances related to government funding wouldn't have occurred without them. Most advances occur without government. Not one thing you mentioned was at all necessary, much less profitable. The moon was ego. the A-bomb is defense related anyway. The LHC and Hubble are interesting but aren't essential to anyone. Vaccines would be provided cheap because the alternative is too costly. And ENIAC was also related to defense and it was based on the abacus. In fact none of this government related stuff would have occurred without it occurring in the free market first. Telescopes were paid for by private patrons. And on and on it goes. So no, you can't convince me that that there's the need to spend even 1 penny of tax dollars on research science.

jdreyer wrote on Jan 25, 2013, 19:23:That's not true at all. There are lots of reasons to have government funding science research:- If a particular field of research or project has no immediate profitable application, like the Hubble telescope or Large Hadron Collider- If a particular research field won't return profit quickly enough, like fusion.- Research projects that need to be applied to everyone, but won't be affordable to everyone if market based solutions are used, like vaccines.- Projects that are simply too large, complex, or expensive for any corporation to handle, like the moon landings or Manhattan project

And on and on. In fact, the device you're entering your communication on (your computer) and transmitting it to the rest of us (the internet) are both the product of governmental research programs.

Wrong on all counts. It's pure sophistry to say all the advances related to government funding wouldn't have occurred without them. Most advances occur without government. Not one thing you mentioned was at all necessary, much less profitable. The moon was ego. the A-bomb is defense related anyway. The LHC and Hubble are interesting but aren't essential to anyone. Vaccines would be provided cheap because the alternative is too costly. And ENIAC was also related to defense and it was based on the abacus. In fact none of this government related stuff would have occurred without it occurring in the free market first. Telescopes were paid for by private patrons. And on and on it goes. So no, you can't convince me that that there's the need to spend even 1 penny of tax dollars on research science.

Cutter wrote on Jan 25, 2013, 18:44:If what he said was true private enterprise would be all over it. It's not though so it's just another entitlement plea so that someone else pays for him to do stuff he wants to do. Get a real job. I'm not saying it isn't interesting or important it's just not John Q. Taxpayer's job to pay for it when his major concern is keeping a roof over his head, 3 squares a day and retiring without becoming homeless.

Government's only job - apart from basic oversight - should be to keep religious kooks from meddling in science's affairs. Think about how far stem research would be by now.

That's not true at all. There are lots of reasons to have government funding science research:- If a particular field of research or project has no immediate profitable application, like the Hubble telescope or Large Hadron Collider- If a particular research field won't return profit quickly enough, like fusion.- Research projects that need to be applied to everyone, but won't be affordable to everyone if market based solutions are used, like vaccines.- Projects that are simply too large, complex, or expensive for any corporation to handle, like the moon landings or Manhattan project

And on and on. In fact, the device you're entering your communication on (your computer) and transmitting it to the rest of us (the internet) are both the product of governmental research programs.

sauron wrote on Jan 25, 2013, 10:27:Good article on Neil Degrasse Tyson's speech. A lot of it is true - government can fund basic science like nobody else. Other organizations always have a specific goal - curing a disease or making money.

Interestingly, the NIH has deliberately shifted towards translational research over the last 5 years. That means research focused on addressing human disease. For people like me, that's fine since I work on diseases of the brain and spinal cord. But if I was working on fly or worm development or something basic, I'd be in trouble.

You may not think that fly and worm development are very important, but most of the genes we know about today that are linked to human disease originally came from exactly those studies. It just takes a while for the studies to go from flies, to mice, to humans.

If what he said was true private enterprise would be all over it. It's not though so it's just another entitlement plea so that someone else pays for him to do stuff he wants to do. Get a real job. I'm not saying it isn't interesting or important it's just not John Q. Taxpayer's job to pay for it when his major concern is keeping a roof over his head, 3 squares a day and retiring without becoming homeless.

Government's only job - apart from basic oversight - should be to keep religious kooks from meddling in science's affairs. Think about how far stem research would be by now.

The cold snap hereabouts is getting worse, rather than better, with the temps frequently below zero when the wind chill is taken into account. Seems like this going to be the case all weekend, and there is snow in the forecast for later on top of all this,

I'm damned happy I missed that cold snap, I left for Florida a few days before it hit and hit every damn storm from southern Ohio to northern Georgia. Including the 3" of sleet and freezing rain in Tennessee.

But with any luck some of that warm will be coming back up with me next week.

--"For every human problem, there is a neat, simple solution; and it is always wrong." --H.L. Mencken