^ They'll have to adjust-those coming from born-again/committed evangelical/southern baptist or even mainliners that left because of culture wars in their former churches-they will need to adjust to the "official hypocrisy" which has been the operating mode of most Orthodox Churches over the centuries. I mean if you do not get that there is no active hunting of homosexuals or alcoholics or fornicators in a parish, and you take it upon yourself to spy on people and report to the priest etc, what you are doing is as foreign to Orthodoxy as a gay wedding, if you wish. So for the sake of the churches here staying Orthodox, I hope this sick behaviour I have personally witnessed does not become acceptable as some sort of 'positive evangelical impact on American Orthodoxy".Let me say it again:THE CHURCH DOES NOT MICRO_MANAGE OUR LIVES.

True, but we should do so for own lives, preferably under the guidance of our priest. I think that we should be the best Christians, parents, citizens, workers, we can be. I cannot understand why you find it necessary to throw water on the zeal of those converts and cradle Orthodox who want to take their faith seriously. Are you rebelling against something or are all those folks a proxy for your own struggles? I know I have made fun of you in the past, but now that you are posting more than cryptic messages, I think there is more to it than playing clever word games. It seems to me that you protest and attack too much, to the point of making me wonder whether you are being pulled in different directions. and your struggle is projected upon folks here on the forum.

Regarding the accusations of homosexuality directed against individuals, I have seen this done in the case of Mark Stokoe and it is a shame and a scandal. However, when persons personify real or imagined causes, they do become targets. In my experience, this is an exception to the rule: Orthodox folks are indeed more concerned with their own failings than of others'. This has been especially true of the converts.

My impression of traditional Orthodox churches (ethnic, not convert) is that there is most certainly a great deal of mutual reproof and encouragement. Church members who live openly sinful lives, do not contribute to the Church financially or by volunteering their time and effort, show disrespect to clergy or elders, are not tolerated. This hyper-individualistic understanding of Church membership that augustin is advocating is not traditional; it is the product of modern, urban, youthful libertarianism. It's "hipster" Orthodoxy, the Orthodoxy that is all about rejecting conventional society, not because we want to join an authentic society, but because we just don't like anyone telling us what to do. I'm sorry, but if that's what you want, Orthodoxy is not for you.

I come and lived and was born in a place where Orthodoxy is the default religion and such; people gossip a lot but would never tell on you to the priest, as if it's their damn business if you commune worthily or not; they rarely commune though.

It isn't just my business if I commune worthily or not. Sure, I might (God forbid!) eat and drink condemnation to myself. But it is the job of the Priest to make sure that communion is reserved only for those who are prepared for it, and to keep it away from those who aren't even in the Church. But Priests are human, and they aren't omnipotent, and if someone knows that a non-Orthodox is about to take communion, we have to tell him. Or, if someone is open and unrepentant in committing a sin, then, because we are a part of a community that participates together in salvation, we need to privately, out of love, inform the Priest of this and allow him to deal with the situation.If a Priest is allowing non-Orthodox to receive communion, then he should be confronted about it. If he doesn't care, then you absolutely must take it to the Bishop. This isn't necessarily the same for people viewed as "unrepentant", but you should still speak to the Priest about it privately. If you have reason to believe that the Priest is knowingly giving communion to those who you know that he knows are unrepentant, I would speak with the Bishop.

And who is to say that a person is repentant or not? That is what confession is for--for the priest to witness to the penitent's repentance. If you cannot read the heart, you have no business questioning another's repentance.

Sometimes people's actions show whether they are repentant or not. Let's take adultery; if Joe Goodtime, having just seduced your wife and apologized for it (and presumably received absolution for he has communed), goes next after your daughter, I would say that you don't need to know what's in his heart. OTH, I do agree with you that we simply must not be vigilantes. That does not mean that we should not be concerned and take action if the priest or the bishop starts doing really weird and bad things. We just have to follow the Biblical prescription of how we are supposed to confront a brother a sister whose conduct is so egregiously bad that we feel compelled to do so (see Father George's post above). This is an awesome responsibility that we must undertake with utmost gravity and care, and after much prayer and homework.

I had a godson who had these temptations and blogged about them. Someone informed the priest. Godson got upset and left for, strangely, Judaism. Granted, he had/has many issues at work, but, yeah, we don't need informants. Sadly, I've experienced this sort of thing at least twice. I don't think informants do themselves any favors with the Almighty. Sort of goes against the patristic saying that if you see your brother sin, do not believe it.

Not just the Patristic - the Biblical also. In the Biblical model of conflict resolution (which applies to "if someone sins against you"), steps 1 and 2 involve direct communication with the person (step 1: tell them directly; step 2: tell them again w/ 2 witnesses present), never speaking about them behind their backs. Even if one considers the ancient practice of public confession (i.e. confession of the most serious sins in front of the entire community), you still have the person voluntarily going in front of the community, not being dragged up there because someone "outed" their sin (whatever sin this may be) in front of everyone.

In short: if you see your brother sin, don't believe it, but speak with them directly about it, not to others; if it requires a priest's attention, tell them to do it, don't do it for them (unless you think they're a risk for imminent danger to themselves or others).

This seems like very sound advice, Father. Nothing behind people's backs. I've actually seen that dark side of things at my parish, and it's not healthy. But the better kind of people I know either are up front or they mind their own business.

Open letter to the Holy Synod from 15 college students and young adults

August 12, 2011 -- Martyr Anicetus of Nicomedia

To: Holy Synod of Bishops, Orthodox Church in AmericaFrom: 15 Orthodox college students and young adults(Letter to follow in hard copy)

<..........>Your Beatitude, Your Eminence, Your Graces,

Though our Lord never condoned sin, He nonetheless ministered to the most vulnerable and marginal, reserving His public condemnations for those who victimized them. As Orthodox college students and young adults, we are writing to express our grave concerns about the state of public Orthodox discourse on a highly sensitive pastoral issue that especially affects young people in our Church. In the wake of a string of suicides by American students persecuted for their homosexuality -- a tragic trend which has not left our Church untouched -- our consciences do not permit us to ignore the language of revilement directed by some in the Church towards gay people.

On public and easily accessible Internet postings, Orthodox clergymen -- including OCA priests -- repeat disgusting and discredited theories about the etiology of same-sex attraction; liken gay people to “old perverted men who love little boys”; tell Orthodox Christians that homosexuality “should make our stomachs turn and make us vomit”; call for “spiritual warfare” against those in the Church who advocate a more restrained pastoral approach; and accuse those who speak up for gay people of being “homosexual activists,” publicly expressing hope that they will leave the Orthodox faith.<..........>

Here is an Internet site with video clips of Fr Josiah Trenham which contain these quoted sentiments about which the student complain to the OCA Synod. The video is in 2 parts and you will need to listen to both of them to get both quotes.

Open letter to the Holy Synod from 15 college students and young adults

August 12, 2011 -- Martyr Anicetus of Nicomedia

To: Holy Synod of Bishops, Orthodox Church in AmericaFrom: 15 Orthodox college students and young adults(Letter to follow in hard copy)

<..........>Your Beatitude, Your Eminence, Your Graces,

Though our Lord never condoned sin, He nonetheless ministered to the most vulnerable and marginal, reserving His public condemnations for those who victimized them. As Orthodox college students and young adults, we are writing to express our grave concerns about the state of public Orthodox discourse on a highly sensitive pastoral issue that especially affects young people in our Church. In the wake of a string of suicides by American students persecuted for their homosexuality -- a tragic trend which has not left our Church untouched -- our consciences do not permit us to ignore the language of revilement directed by some in the Church towards gay people.

On public and easily accessible Internet postings, Orthodox clergymen -- including OCA priests -- repeat disgusting and discredited theories about the etiology of same-sex attraction; liken gay people to “old perverted men who love little boys”; tell Orthodox Christians that homosexuality “should make our stomachs turn and make us vomit”; call for “spiritual warfare” against those in the Church who advocate a more restrained pastoral approach; and accuse those who speak up for gay people of being “homosexual activists,” publicly expressing hope that they will leave the Orthodox faith.<..........>

Here is an Internet site with video clips of Fr Josiah Trenham which contain these quoted sentiments about which the student complain to the OCA Synod. The video is in 2 parts and you will need to listen to both of them to get both quotes.

How bad was it (besides the above quotes)? I could only make it through about 4 minutes before I had to turn it off (it's a snore-fest).

« Last Edit: August 15, 2011, 09:59:52 PM by Fr. George »

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"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."" Isaac Asimov

It appears I missed a lot here, after spending too much time on it.I tried to read it all, and then got lost in the midst of a couple of side arguments, inside jokes, etc.

re: Orthonorm, I think it's fairly clear where we're diverging, and not really worth digging into. Again, I apologize for the comment I mentioned earlier, and wish to move forward from any resentment I held towards you for what I perceived as personal attacks. As I've said in other discussions, I come here with a specific purpose, and get put off by a certain approach, which is your right to take whether I like it or not.I'm confused by the Latin comment, though, it went over my head...I don't know that I've ever used a Latin expression on this site. Maybe my name was a typo? Just curious...

Re:Schultz, I get your point, and not having lingered around this forum long enough, I had not had any exposure to this issue being discussed here, prior to this discussion. I understand where your frustration, and that of others, may arise from.What I hold on to, is that I agree 100% which each of these points:A) There are many, many other sins as grave, or more so, than homosexuality.B) Plenty of these are just as relevant to modern life, and valuable as discussion pieces in te public sphere and here on the forum.C) These sins often get overlooked, while the gay issue gets singled out. It gets boring. D) Homosexuals are not intrinsically evil, or worse than any other brand of sinner.

And even so, I don't think it's valuable to come down on people for speaking badly about homosexuality, as it is still a sin, and certainly one that is at the forefront of the "culture wars", call them what you will.

I think that a discussion on how this sin is best addressed, i.e., without a hateful, dismissive approach, and how the church can reach out to sinners of this sort in a realistic way would be more fruitful.

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It is not the task of Christianity to provide easy answers to every question, but to make us progressively aware of a mystery. God is not so much the object of our knowledge as the cause of our wonder.-Metropolitan Kallistos Ware

How bad was it (besides the above quotes)? I could only make it through about 4 minutes before I had to turn it off (it's a snore-fest).

Father,

Really ugly stuff and ugly rationales. I dunno if it is worth your time.

It is sad to me. At least.

It gets worse the longer he goes on.

Speaking the true in love . . . indeed.

He is no Fr. Thomas Hopko. A man who takes a Orthodox stance with a nuanced and pastoral approach to the issue.

Fr. Trenham has a rather forensic approach to the matter of sex which blinds him in a number areas. We've discussed him a number of times before. He has a podcast on Ancient Faith Radio which isn't bad.

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Listen to those two clips and let me know if you would want your children to be taught what he is saying.

I am not saying I think he is your spokesman. I want to know, if when the rubber meets the road, do you want this sort of Orthodox pastoral approach (really a rallying cry) to homosexuality?

I ain't saying this is your stance. I am trying to find some common ground. And if we can't agree that this message is poisonous. And inaccurate on more than a few matters. Then we certainly will NEVER see eye to eye on this.

I can't believe you would be not be at least disturbed a little by this Priest.

--------------------------------------------

We have very different personalties and backgrounds and ways of discourse.

I am sure you are a genuine man and I believe a loving husband and father and sincere Christian.

I am not sure how to handle the back and forths, due to the former. But know I respect you for the latter.

Forgive me, if I have caused you unnecessary agita. A little fire ain't bad. Guess, I am trying to meet you half way. //:=)

But some folks just ain't gonna jive. But I'll try my best to dial it back a notch or two on my end. As it seems you do get hurt by my words.

How bad was it (besides the above quotes)? I could only make it through about 4 minutes before I had to turn it off (it's a snore-fest).

Father,

Really ugly stuff and ugly rationales. I dunno if it is worth your time.

It is sad to me. At least.

It gets worse the longer he goes on.

Speaking the true in love . . . indeed.

He is no Fr. Thomas Hopko. A man who takes a Orthodox stance with a nuanced and pastoral approach to the issue.

Fr. Trenham has a rather forensic approach to the matter of sex which blinds him in a number areas. We've discussed him a number of times before. He has a podcast on Ancient Faith Radio which isn't bad.

Haven't been privy. I check out those threads.

You seem to be taking a measured stance here Isa. You know I respect your opinion, when I can understand it.

The above audio clips, what is your opinion of them in of themselves.

Is this the message even close to what you think the OC should be sending out? And you know where he is simply wrong about the mechanics of homosexual sex. Much less his appeals to "secular" thought to back up his polemics.

Listen to those two clips and let me know if you would want your children to be taught what he is saying.

I am not saying I think he is your spokesman. I want to know, if when the rubber meets the road, do you want this sort of Orthodox pastoral approach (really a rallying cry) to homosexuality?

I ain't saying this is your stance. I am trying to find some common ground. And if we can't agree that this message is poisonous. And inaccurate on more than a few matters. Then we certainly will NEVER see eye to eye on this.

I can't believe you would be not be at least disturbed a little by this Priest.

--------------------------------------------

We have very different personalties and backgrounds and ways of discourse.

I am sure you are a genuine man and I believe a loving husband and father and sincere Christian.

I am not sure how to handle the back and forths, due to the former. But know I respect you for the latter.

Forgive me, if I have caused you unnecessary agita. A little fire ain't bad. Guess, I am trying to meet you half way. //:=)

But some folks just ain't gonna jive. But I'll try my best to dial it back a notch or two on my end. As it seems you do get hurt by my words.

But bear with me, if possible.

No apology from you is needed. No harm. No foul. From my POV.

I haven't watched the videos. When I said that I didn't think people should be attacked for speaking badly of homosexuality, I wasn't referring to this priest, I was referring to folks here on the forum, in the context of this argument. From what I'm hearing, it sounds like the guy, at least in these videos, is way out there. Not defending him at all.

RE: You and I, as I've said before, I always suspect that our backgrounds/personalities, etc., may not be quite as different as you imagine. Either way, know that my in depth personal defenses come from wanting to discuss with you on an even plain; I think there can certainly be value in our exchanges; you clearly have a mind, and a facility with words. I like to think I do. Basically, I don't want you to take me for a spoiled dilettante, because I fear you often do, and I don't think it helps us understand one another.

« Last Edit: August 15, 2011, 10:36:53 PM by JimCBrooklyn »

Logged

It is not the task of Christianity to provide easy answers to every question, but to make us progressively aware of a mystery. God is not so much the object of our knowledge as the cause of our wonder.-Metropolitan Kallistos Ware

How bad was it (besides the above quotes)? I could only make it through about 4 minutes before I had to turn it off (it's a snore-fest).

Father,

Really ugly stuff and ugly rationales. I dunno if it is worth your time.

It is sad to me. At least.

It gets worse the longer he goes on.

Speaking the true in love . . . indeed.

He is no Fr. Thomas Hopko. A man who takes a Orthodox stance with a nuanced and pastoral approach to the issue.

Fr. Trenham has a rather forensic approach to the matter of sex which blinds him in a number areas. We've discussed him a number of times before. He has a podcast on Ancient Faith Radio which isn't bad.

Haven't been privy. I check out those threads.

You seem to be taking a measured stance here Isa. You know I respect your opinion, when I can understand it.

The above audio clips, what is your opinion of them in of themselves.

Is this the message even close to what you think the OC should be sending out? And you know where he is simply wrong about the mechanics of homosexual sex. Much less his appeals to "secular" thought to back up his polemics.

I have to change computers. this one doesn't support video.

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

I haven't watched the videos. When I said that I didn't think people should be attacked for speaking badly of homosexuality, I wasn't referring to this priest, I was referring to folks here on the forum, in the context of this argument. From what I'm hearing, it sounds like the guy, at least in these videos, is way out there. Not defending him at all.

I wasn't suggesting you were. I dunno the stomach you have, but I would like to know if you do listen (they ain't videos and he doesn't open up the floodgates for five minutes) what your reaction would be outside "thoughtful critique" (which I doubt would be very sympathetic) and more toward what if my children heard this.

Probably not worth the time in the end. You're Old Calendar, IIRC. Perhaps, not the best stuff to listen to.

How bad was it (besides the above quotes)? I could only make it through about 4 minutes before I had to turn it off (it's a snore-fest).

Father,

Really ugly stuff and ugly rationales. I dunno if it is worth your time.

Thanks for the heads-up. And thank you for having a higher value for my time than I usually do.

Logged

"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."" Isaac Asimov

I haven't watched the videos. When I said that I didn't think people should be attacked for speaking badly of homosexuality, I wasn't referring to this priest, I was referring to folks here on the forum, in the context of this argument. From what I'm hearing, it sounds like the guy, at least in these videos, is way out there. Not defending him at all.

I wasn't suggesting you were. I dunno the stomach you have, but I would like to know if you do listen (they ain't videos and he doesn't open up the floodgates for five minutes) what your reaction would be outside "thoughtful critique" (which I doubt would be very sympathetic) and more toward what if my children heard this.

Probably not worth the time in the end. You're Old Calendar, IIRC. Perhaps, not the best stuff to listen to.

If Old Calendar, have a joyful fast.

Thanks, yes, our fast just began. Maybe I'll get to the vid at some point.

Logged

It is not the task of Christianity to provide easy answers to every question, but to make us progressively aware of a mystery. God is not so much the object of our knowledge as the cause of our wonder.-Metropolitan Kallistos Ware

Men and women with homosexual feelings and emotions are to be treated with the understanding, acceptance, love, justice and mercy due to all human beings...Persons struggling with homosexuality who accept the Orthodox faith and strive to fulfill the Orthodox way of life may be communicants of the Church with everyone else who believes and struggles. Those instructed and counselled in Orthodox Christian doctrine and ascetical life who still want to justify their behavior may not participate in the Church’s sacramental mysteries, since to do so would not help, but harm them.Assistance is to be given to those who deal with persons of homosexual orientation in order to help them with their thoughts, feelings and actions in regard to homosexuality. Such assistance is especially necessary for parents, relatives and friends of persons with homosexual tendencies and feelings. It is certainly necessary for pastors and church workers.

I could go on... But just because a minority of Orthodox treat homosexual-leaning people like crap doesn't mean that everyone who is openly opposed to it does the same.

As I once recently heard in a podcast, nowhere in the Bible, and nowhere in our faith do you hear tolerance preached. But love is most certainly preached. We cannot, and we should not "tolerate" homosexuality. But we must love them, and "speak the truth in love", and help to show them the ascetical struggle they must undergo to battle their temptations.

I must say, I will never understand the whole "homosexual marriage undermines/obliterates/weakens/destroys/explodes/&c. the entire institution" argument.

Surely de facto marriage, no-fault divorce and rampant fornication rendered the martial institutions of the unbelievers pretty meaningless a long time ago?

Quote

More precisely, it has further undermined the institution. The separation of marriage from parenthood was increasing; gay marriage has widened the separation. Out-of-wedlock birthrates were rising; gay marriage has added to the factors pushing those rates higher. Instead of encouraging a society-wide return to marriage, Scandinavian gay marriage has driven home the message that marriage itself is outdated, and that virtually any family form, including out-of-wedlock parenthood, is acceptable.

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

I remember listening to Fr. Josiah's sermon soon after it was uploaded to Youtube. I remember listening to it and feeling very, very uncomfortable. My "upbringing" as an Orthodox Christian has always been "traditional/conservative" and I have never heard a priest talk in such a way about a whole group of people. I've heard some silly things from priests (and bishops!), but nothing so awful. Honestly, I want to cry when I think about it. We must remember that even priests are fallible and unfortunately, particularly here in North American, some converts from sectarian groups bring in a whole lot of baggage and impose it on the Church. His approach is not Orthodox! I can't imagine what it would be like for someone who struggles with the particular passion under discussion to meet him! Lord have mercy....

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"If you cannot find Christ in the beggar at the church door, you will not find Him in the chalice.” -The Divine John Chrysostom

“Till we can become divine, we must be content to be human, lest in our hurry for change we sink to something lower.” -Anthony Trollope

I must say, I will never understand the whole "homosexual marriage undermines/obliterates/weakens/destroys/explodes/&c. the entire institution" argument.

Surely de facto marriage, no-fault divorce and rampant fornication rendered the martial institutions of the unbelievers pretty meaningless a long time ago?

Quote

More precisely, it has further undermined the institution. The separation of marriage from parenthood was increasing; gay marriage has widened the separation. Out-of-wedlock birthrates were rising; gay marriage has added to the factors pushing those rates higher. Instead of encouraging a society-wide return to marriage, Scandinavian gay marriage has driven home the message that marriage itself is outdated, and that virtually any family form, including out-of-wedlock parenthood, is acceptable.

Thank you Isa. The article was eye-opening to say the least. I hope some others on this thread take the time to read it especially if they are assuming gay marriage will have no effect on the institution of marriage. Easy to ignore what one doesn't want to here if one is only listening to what our secular world tells us is correct.

I must say, I will never understand the whole "homosexual marriage undermines/obliterates/weakens/destroys/explodes/&c. the entire institution" argument.

Surely de facto marriage, no-fault divorce and rampant fornication rendered the martial institutions of the unbelievers pretty meaningless a long time ago?

Quote

More precisely, it has further undermined the institution. The separation of marriage from parenthood was increasing; gay marriage has widened the separation. Out-of-wedlock birthrates were rising; gay marriage has added to the factors pushing those rates higher. Instead of encouraging a society-wide return to marriage, Scandinavian gay marriage has driven home the message that marriage itself is outdated, and that virtually any family form, including out-of-wedlock parenthood, is acceptable.

Thank you Isa. The article was eye-opening to say the least. I hope some others on this thread take the time to read it especially if they are assuming gay marriage will have no effect on the institution of marriage. Easy to ignore what one doesn't want to here if one is only listening to what our secular world tells us is correct.

Tamara, the weekly standard is a neoconservative, political, news opinion rag, unworthy of even being placed at the bottom of a bird cage. Beware of the truthfulness of its opinions and, really, you should have noticed the leap of faith required to agree with the quote. Of course, just my opinion.

I must say, I will never understand the whole "homosexual marriage undermines/obliterates/weakens/destroys/explodes/&c. the entire institution" argument.

Surely de facto marriage, no-fault divorce and rampant fornication rendered the martial institutions of the unbelievers pretty meaningless a long time ago?

Quote

More precisely, it has further undermined the institution. The separation of marriage from parenthood was increasing; gay marriage has widened the separation. Out-of-wedlock birthrates were rising; gay marriage has added to the factors pushing those rates higher. Instead of encouraging a society-wide return to marriage, Scandinavian gay marriage has driven home the message that marriage itself is outdated, and that virtually any family form, including out-of-wedlock parenthood, is acceptable.

Thank you Isa. The article was eye-opening to say the least. I hope some others on this thread take the time to read it especially if they are assuming gay marriage will have no effect on the institution of marriage. Easy to ignore what one doesn't want to here if one is only listening to what our secular world tells us is correct.

Tamara, the weekly standard is a neoconservative, political, news opinion rag, unworthy of even being placed at the bottom of a bird cage. Beware of the truthfulness of its opinions and, really, you should have noticed the leap of faith required to agree with the quote. Of course, just my opinion.

The author of the article is Stanley Kurtz who is a research fellow at the Hoover Institution. This institution is a conservative think tank of Stanford University. Stanford University is a place of higher learning that values intellectual and political diversity which is an uncommon goal that lacking in many other institutions in our society.

Anecdotally, I'm pretty sure most "practising" homosexual men engage in anal sex: not that I think that changes anything.

If we're going by anecdotal evidence I know far more about my straight friends' sexual practices than I do of my gay friends'. Straight guys love giving the play-by-play and no, I really don't need to go back and see the instant replay (darn video phones). The most I ever heard from a gay man is "I got laid last night". TMI, yes, but not quite as TMI as the former.

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"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are." TH White

Men and women with homosexual feelings and emotions are to be treated with the understanding, acceptance, love, justice and mercy due to all human beings...Persons struggling with homosexuality who accept the Orthodox faith and strive to fulfill the Orthodox way of life may be communicants of the Church with everyone else who believes and struggles. Those instructed and counselled in Orthodox Christian doctrine and ascetical life who still want to justify their behavior may not participate in the Church’s sacramental mysteries, since to do so would not help, but harm them.Assistance is to be given to those who deal with persons of homosexual orientation in order to help them with their thoughts, feelings and actions in regard to homosexuality. Such assistance is especially necessary for parents, relatives and friends of persons with homosexual tendencies and feelings. It is certainly necessary for pastors and church workers.

I could go on... But just because a minority of Orthodox treat homosexual-leaning people like crap doesn't mean that everyone who is openly opposed to it does the same.

As I once recently heard in a podcast, nowhere in the Bible, and nowhere in our faith do you hear tolerance preached. But love is most certainly preached. We cannot, and we should not "tolerate" homosexuality. But we must love them, and "speak the truth in love", and help to show them the ascetical struggle they must undergo to battle their temptations.

Why did this post go ignored, and yet everyone seems to be stuck on a Priest who is clearly treating it the wrong way?

Do Orthodox who speak the truth (NOT referring to myself, but to those in the post i quoted) just get ignored because what they are saying is status quo, and those that are extreme get all the discussion because they are fringe and controversial?

Men and women with homosexual feelings and emotions are to be treated with the understanding, acceptance, love, justice and mercy due to all human beings...Persons struggling with homosexuality who accept the Orthodox faith and strive to fulfill the Orthodox way of life may be communicants of the Church with everyone else who believes and struggles. Those instructed and counselled in Orthodox Christian doctrine and ascetical life who still want to justify their behavior may not participate in the Church’s sacramental mysteries, since to do so would not help, but harm them.Assistance is to be given to those who deal with persons of homosexual orientation in order to help them with their thoughts, feelings and actions in regard to homosexuality. Such assistance is especially necessary for parents, relatives and friends of persons with homosexual tendencies and feelings. It is certainly necessary for pastors and church workers.

I could go on... But just because a minority of Orthodox treat homosexual-leaning people like crap doesn't mean that everyone who is openly opposed to it does the same.

As I once recently heard in a podcast, nowhere in the Bible, and nowhere in our faith do you hear tolerance preached. But love is most certainly preached. We cannot, and we should not "tolerate" homosexuality. But we must love them, and "speak the truth in love", and help to show them the ascetical struggle they must undergo to battle their temptations.

Why did this post go ignored, and yet everyone seems to be stuck on a Priest who is clearly treating it the wrong way?

Do Orthodox who speak the truth (NOT referring to myself, but to those in the post i quoted) just get ignored because what they are saying is status quo, and those that are extreme get all the discussion because they are fringe and controversial?

It seems everyone got too busy discussing...well...

These are sound, respectful presentations of what the church teaches, and they deserve a lot more attention than the one screwball...

To be fair, though, I think the reason Fr. Trenham's bit got so much play is because it illustrates quite well how not to present this issue, whether one believes it to be important, as I do, or not.

« Last Edit: August 16, 2011, 02:30:16 AM by JimCBrooklyn »

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It is not the task of Christianity to provide easy answers to every question, but to make us progressively aware of a mystery. God is not so much the object of our knowledge as the cause of our wonder.-Metropolitan Kallistos Ware

I listened to the first part of Fr Josiah's lecture and honestly I don't know what you guys are talking about. He never expressed hatred for homosexuals. Rather, he said that calling their unnatural attractions for each other "love" is an act of hatred, just as whenever you express approval of someone else's sin. You are helping to lead them to damnation. And the part about "perverted old men loving little boys" is NOT a reference to homosexuals in general. He is clearly referring to pedophiles, in the context of his argument that approving gay marriage on the basis that we cannot legislate on love may in future make it hard to deny the claims to love of pedophiles. Now, I admit this argument is more rhetorical than logical ("slippery slope"), but he is certainly not trying to say all homosexuals are pedophiles. And throughout his focus was on the sinfulness of the actions, rather than the people.

Correction: I started listening to the second part and had to switch off when he got to the part about exchanging blood. I wonder why the immorality of certain sexual behaviors always has to be demonstrated with bogus medical claims. It's like saying masturbation is bad because it makes you go blind. More instances of Church dogma being held hostage to easily falsifiable empirical claims.

Listen to those two clips and let me know if you would want your children to be taught what he is saying.

I am not saying I think he is your spokesman. I want to know, if when the rubber meets the road, do you want this sort of Orthodox pastoral approach (really a rallying cry) to homosexuality?

I ain't saying this is your stance. I am trying to find some common ground. And if we can't agree that this message is poisonous. And inaccurate on more than a few matters. Then we certainly will NEVER see eye to eye on this.

I can't believe you would be not be at least disturbed a little by this Priest.

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We have very different personalties and backgrounds and ways of discourse.

I am sure you are a genuine man and I believe a loving husband and father and sincere Christian.

I am not sure how to handle the back and forths, due to the former. But know I respect you for the latter.

Forgive me, if I have caused you unnecessary agita. A little fire ain't bad. Guess, I am trying to meet you half way. //:=)

But some folks just ain't gonna jive. But I'll try my best to dial it back a notch or two on my end. As it seems you do get hurt by my words.

But bear with me, if possible.

No apology from you is needed. No harm. No foul. From my POV.

As the son and brother of Orthodox priests, the comments and style of the priest in question truly burden my heart and my soul.

As to Bishop Michael, a life long neighbor, fellow altar server and friend, and Bishop Matthias, a long time friend, nothing in what they wrote, what they preach or how they live would be accepting of the rhetoric and bitter content of the cited videos.

We all know what the Church teaches us. Let go of this topic and move on.

Frankly the entire style and panoply of views set out at AOIUSA are such that I tell people who view it to find their information elsewhere. The Bishops collectively ought to look at them with the same scrutiny that they are viewing others, such as Stokoe's site.

I must say, I will never understand the whole "homosexual marriage undermines/obliterates/weakens/destroys/explodes/&c. the entire institution" argument.

Surely de facto marriage, no-fault divorce and rampant fornication rendered the martial institutions of the unbelievers pretty meaningless a long time ago?

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More precisely, it has further undermined the institution. The separation of marriage from parenthood was increasing; gay marriage has widened the separation. Out-of-wedlock birthrates were rising; gay marriage has added to the factors pushing those rates higher. Instead of encouraging a society-wide return to marriage, Scandinavian gay marriage has driven home the message that marriage itself is outdated, and that virtually any family form, including out-of-wedlock parenthood, is acceptable.

Thank you Isa. The article was eye-opening to say the least. I hope some others on this thread take the time to read it especially if they are assuming gay marriage will have no effect on the institution of marriage. Easy to ignore what one doesn't want to here if one is only listening to what our secular world tells us is correct.

Tamara, the weekly standard is a neoconservative, political, news opinion rag, unworthy of even being placed at the bottom of a bird cage. Beware of the truthfulness of its opinions and, really, you should have noticed the leap of faith required to agree with the quote. Of course, just my opinion.

I must say that I am totally of a different opinion. BTW, the bottom of the bird cage has been reserved for the New York Times, Newsweek, etc...for a long time now for many reasons, to include propagating the corrosive influence of modern liberalism on faith and culture. It does not take a leap of faith to grasp the truth of that quotation or article.