Tuesday, 15 May 2007

We will just skip over the fact that this thing is late (real world get’s in the way sometimes) and get straight in…

Dennis “139 lines that distill down to “theme good.”" Ugolini writes:

My article entitled "The Art of the Lie" is included below.

And for what it's worth, I'm not trying to be a dick. My posts are motivated by two things:

1. I think the whole "BGG are closed-minded jerks out to get us" focus is limiting how good your site could be.

2. The problem with setting up shop away from the people who disagree with you is that you stop questioning each other, for fear of being labeled "one of them" and cast out. Looking for holes in each other's arguments can be a healthy thing. Nearly all of the blog comments right now are "great read", whether it's a great read (which some are) or not. I'd like to see more "yeah, but what about this?", because that's how interesting discussion starts.

Anyway, that's my deal. I hope you like the article.

- Dennis Ugolini

I’ll post Dennis’ article in a separate post so that it can get its own conversation thread going.

Gary “I watch your microbadges” Sax writes:

Mr Skeletor:

One thing that always strikes me when I look at many of the more"elite" gamers in the BGG scene is that many (most?) of them seem tobe evangelical Christians, Mormons, etc. Tom Vasel, for example, IIRCis doing missionary work in Korea. Does this have a big effect on thethemes and moral constraints of the games that get discussed in theoverall discourse of BGG? You could also broaden the question toboardgamers in general. Many of the game groups I see being discussedand played at on BGG are being played at churches and church groups.Could this be part of the reason we're constantly playing games themedto trading resources and moving camels across deserts? Many AT themesand mechanics would not fit well with a group of good Christiangamers.

I'm not sure if I'm bothered by this, but it occurs to me that I don'tsee as much of a slant, say, in wargames, which I play a lot--most ofthe people who play wargames don't seem to be advertising themselvesas Christians or evangelicals and often discuss drinking beer all dayduring a game and whatnot.

One might be able to do some interesting analysis looking at theChristian microbadge and who holds it and what games they tend to befans of and rate highly, etc. That may reveal whether this feeling onmy part is more empirical trend or just my own spurious observation.

-Gary Sax

This trend has been noted by more than a few people. What you have to remember is that unlike other forms of gaming such as videogames or gambling, boardgames are viewed as a wholesome family oriented activity which therefore attracts the Sunday Church crowd. On the other hand plastic space ships and big titted Amazonian women tend to attract the Kevin Smith style ‘nerd’ crowd into boardgaming, which are basically us. One group are all about niceties, sharing experiences and spreading the word of boardgames, the other wants to cuss, be obnoxious and bitch about which Star Wars movie sucked the most.

Euros tend to have more wholesome themes and less direct conflict, so it’s natural that they will tend to appeal more towards the Churchies. On the other hand, the geeky themes and boisterous violent game play of AmeriTrash is more likely to appeal to the nerds as Wargames will appeal mainly to history buffs. While most people will say they ‘love all games’ which to a degree is true, I think deep down everyone has a subtype that appeals to them above the others.

If someone did do the study you suggest, I think the safe money would be on most outspoken Christians preferring Euro games, ‘cept for Jesus of course who was a big Titan fan.

The question is who out there is up for doing this analysis?

Thaadd “Shorts with back stockings is the new look” Powell writes:

Dear Mr. Skeletor,

What's your take on collaborative Ameritrash games - can you be 'trashy' without elimination? What would you consider the best of that variety? We know you like Descent - how about Arkham? Are there other ones that are less well known?

/A Trash Fan

(Might not be a problem to use my name, but I don't want to look like a company shill, and I know half the company reads Fortress now... /Thaadd)

Don’t worry Trash Fan, you’re identity is safe with me.

I am quite a fan of Collaborative games - arguably most dungeon crawls, which are my forte, are collaborative to some degree, which is a topic I may write an article about. Collaborative games also tend to be very story driven, which is something I enjoy. Also they are easy to solo, for those of us who don’t have wives to game with.

As a young lad I was a real gamebook freak, and still have an entire collection of the old ‘fighting fantasy’ series sitting on my second to bottom shelf. . These things were essentially solo games, were you the player ‘took on’ the book - I may write an article about these things one day. Anyway collaborative games are pretty much the same thing, except that instead of taking on a book you’re taking on a boardgame, and the experience can be shared by many players rather than just yourself.

I’m a huge Arkham Horror fan, I have it rated at BGG as an 8 though it should be a 10 considering I played in 4 times in one weekend not too long ago. I’m scared to up my rating though as Nate will tease me.Lord off the Rings is a game I originally didn’t like but have recently done a 180 on and now really enjoy. Shadows over Camelot is a game I really enjoyed but now am not so sure if it’s that good – without the traitor the game would be really bland I feel. Warhammer Quest still stands as the essential dungeon masterless dungeon crawl, though it does have a few problems (hmm, I smell another article.) I automated the Night King’s role in Runebound’s Midnight expansion which turned that into a pretty cool co-op (if only it wasn’t so freaking impossible) and normally play World of Warcraft in a co-op mode when teaching new people.

Can’t think of any more co-op games I have played, so I’ll have to throw the floor open to the masses to let me know which ones are worth checking out.

If you have any mail for this segment that you would like to send in address it to fortressat@gmail.com with [mailbag] in the header.

68 comments:

I've always found that co-op games without an "opposing" player (i.e. SoC, FoD) tend to end up being completely dominated by the loudest and/or most experienced player who just tells everyone else what to do.

And are, as a result, crap.

What kind of proper AT player plays a game where you can't taunt the opposition and mock the looser anyway? You'd look pretty silly standing up and threatening the Arkham Horror card stack with dire retribution if it dare throw up a particularly horribly Great Old One on you.

Talking of Fighting Fantasy games, I've got a two player one called Test of the Twins (or something like that). It came with two books (one for each player) and was pretty nifty. I had this as a present one year and I've never seen it anywhere since.

LotR with the Sauron expansion solves the problem when someone in the group is feeling a bit irritated and doesn't want to hold hands with everyone else - I love playing Sauron and trying to toast those screaming little hobbits, and from the other end it is a good game working with a few others trying to stop the gloating loudmouth playing Sauron from winning ... so problem nearly solved.

I think you can just about throw Fortress America in the same basket as 'LotR with Sauron' - basically you have three working against one but then right at the end if you are an attacker and have triumphed you get a quick shot at smacking over your former allies !!!

And 'Space Crusade' is in the same formula again - co-op three against one, also 'Scotland Yard'.An old ICE game, 'Riddle of the Ring', has four vs four in co-op play (still trying to get this one out).

i use firefox adblock to block the christian related avatars and microbadges at BGG. some dude has a giant horeshoe affixed to a cross as his avatar. ridiculous. i'd rather not see that crap and am grateful that firefox lets me choose not to.

My regular gaming group loves collaborative (or mostly collaborative) AmeriTrash. Arkham Horror gets heavy play, and so did the original Arkham Horror before we got a little burned out on it in the mid-90's. Fury of Dracula is another favorite, and we often enjoy the fully-errata'd Betrayal at House on the Hill, depending on the scenario.

Even some of my oldest AT games still get some play because of collaborative elements: especially Intruder and Slasher Flick: Revenge of the Boogeyman. The Vesuvius Incident would get more play if the rules weren't so difficult.

Fortress America has temporary co-op that boils down to "who can lie first and the best" element if the invader wins. Nice touch in my opinion.

I have had games of Heroquest where the "experienced know it all" player that Matt speaks of was killed by the other players in order to shut them up - basically letting him/her know that they are willing to throw the game in order to have this person pipe down.

Yeah, fragging the bossy guy is good for the health of the gaming group. I did enjoy Lord of the Ring at first, but the bossy types eventually ruined the game for us by constantly telling everybody what to do.

Arkham Horror is a tough game that I have played many times, and with Dark Pharoah and Dunwich Horror mixed in, we are now losing about 70% of the time. Even so, I refuse to coach newer players on how to play their turn. I will give them a broad selection of options, and make sure they understand the icons at each town location so they know where to go to get money or buy things. But I would rather lose to the Great Old One (again) then deprive a new player of the fun of exploring the game.

Collaborative games- with proper themes- are great. I do think that the "all against one" model is a little more interesting than AI/automated opposition, but there's some really interesting mechanics that can make for challenging games- like ARKHAM HORROR.

Now, if the collaboration is themed with building a cathedral, setting up trade routes or poisoning the minds of young people with spiritually fascistic, hateful, death-worshipping religions that feature undead bearded white men that perform necromancy, then yeah, collaborative games suck.

I think Gary is spot-on about the religious thing...you know, when I was growing up I never considered board games to be "wholesome", likely because everything I played was festooned with demons, tanks, and demon tanks. And lots of skulls. I liked the Fiend Folio better than the bible. Games were for nerds like me, not the Christers or the damn Mormons, they were all out to "get" games and gamers.

I have noticed this puritanical bent myself, and although I completely support others' rights to believe whatever nonsensical pie-in-the-sky crap they choose to, I think it is ultimately part of the reason why AT themes and styles of gaming have fallen into ill repute. Of course, I know some Eurogamers who are total heathens and some AT gamers who might as well be sainted, so it's not an exclusive thing either way.

But as far as I'm concerned, Christian gaming isn't that far removed from Christian rock.

I'm surprised to find that people play Fortress America with the individual Invader victory rules. WE threw out the individual victory rules, because in my experience, THe USA can always win, by picking on one player, and having them back off because they are worried about an Individual victory. I thought it was like A&A in that nobody plays with the Individual victory.

Talking about A&A, there's a whole class of games where you are split into two teams, and you have to cooperate with your team members to win. They're both cooperative and competitive.

I'm sure that there are many fine upstanding Christian baordgamers, but I've found that people who buy the Christian microbadge might as well have bought an arsehole microbadge, because that's how they all act.

To make a Chistian rock song you just replace the word "baby" with "Jesus". Using that principle it sounds to me like you can get more Christians playing AT games if you make the following changes to your favorite titles:

I saw a review of HEX HEX that Tom "Jesus" Vasel did wherein he describes how the curse theme was somehow offensive so they changed it so that it wasn't a curse getting hot-potatoed around, it was a "little bomb". I guess getting blown to pieces and having your guts strewn over the table is less offensive to God than a make-believe curse.

To make a Chistian rock song you just replace the word "baby" with "Jesus".

[i]I'm sure that there are many fine upstanding Christian baordgamers, but I've found that people who buy the Christian microbadge might as well have bought an arsehole microbadge, because that's how they all act.[/i]

Being an evangelical christian and an ameritrash gamer I feel I'm a niche within a niche. I'm glad I have a sense of humor about it or I could get really depressed and angry at the world (and Euro gamers). But really, I don't see the conflict. Games are games not real life and _sometimes_ the experience is more meaningful to me as a Christian. For example, we played a game of Betrayal at house on the Hill last weekend and my character became possesed by a Demon Lord. Although I'd probably never watch a movie surrounding this theme, we all had a good laugh over the game and my opponents said, "WE'RE GONNA SEND THAT DEMON BACK TO HELL!"

Jesus didn't say, "You're not allowed to have any fun unless you're laughing at how dumb the devil is."http://youtube.com/watch?v=tGA2wx3urwY

I've not seen a Christian game more offensive than Salvation: The Game of Saints and Sinners.

You move along a pair of outer track collecting money and Salvation tokens. At points, you can choose to walk the straight path which has almost no temptation markers, or walk the line between good and evil, and take the path that offers more money and temptation tokens.

The tokens go in a little plastic mailbox that reads "airmail from heaven", and the game ends when the 3 signs of the apocalypse are turned up.

Everybody dies, and people count up their mailboxes, and some go to heaven, and some go to hell.

So it is a sort of the boardgame equivalent of Blood Freak. (Look it up.)

I think what defines an AT game is aggression more than player elimination per se. No one confuses--literally--bean counting with shotgunning Elder Things in the nuts*. Remember that a game like Win Place & Show is an AT Classic, but it's not all about elimination or even shooting horses (though that slowass nag better shape up unless she wants a quick trip to Elmerville). It's about aggressively interacting with other folks at the table. There's nothing aggressive about choosing Prospector for the eight fucking time. That's the real difference. Well, that and the distinct lack of wooden chips to represent everything in the damn game.

See, Ironcates shows that you can have belief and not be a dick- not to mention a sense of humour and an awareness of what fantasy is and it isn't. Well done.

Another relgious game out there is REDEMPTION: CITY OF BONDAGE. I think I went to that place once back in the ol' high school goth days. The DJ sucked, played nothing but Sisters of Mercy and Thrill Kill Kult.

Anyway, it's actually a Richard Borg design. Frank Branham had it out last week at Mercer Meeples but apparently its promise of titular redemption didn't work as he followed it up with a play (likely the world's first) of the Insane Clown Posse game QUEST FOR SHANGRI-LA.

"A wizard emerges from behind a curtain. He is wearing a profane T-shirt".

I don't see why Christians should have to conceal their beliefs when the user profile features of BGG are obviously designed so that you can indicate your interests, motivations, occupations &c. It is unfortunate that politeness is defined as not exposing any opinions that others might disagree with rather than just politely disagreeing. Excuse me if I find it not a little bit hypocritical that the Christian microbadge created such a storm in a teapot but nobody bothers to object to the atheist microbadge or the frequent advocacy of alcohol consumption that's present even in this post. Is it OK to encourage people to damage their brains with alcohol, yet not OK to acknowledge that one is Christian without even conducting any explicit advocacy?

No. If you read my point, I was actually making an observation about the possibility that the innocuous themes that dominate Euros (and their success) may perhaps be shaped by the religious restrictions/preferences of their users. I find that, if true (it may not be), an interesting observation about the way the boardgame hobby is segmented and why I may not be interested or relate to some of the themes, when they exist at all, in mainstream Euros. It'd be interesting if true.

I missed the part where I said you should conceal your beliefs; in fact, you'll note that in fact the existence of those badges could be interesting evidence to confirm or reject my hypothesis!

You realise you're just contributing to Thaadd's goal of returning more Google hits on her name than any other person in the history of the world, right?

I don't think even with my amazing powers of internet influence she could possibly get more hits than Paris Hilton or Pamela Anderson. Unless she is planning to 'leak' a secret personal sex tape - Hmmm, maybe the username "Thaad Loves Orcs" is not as innocent as it at first seems...

I don't see why Christians should have to conceal their beliefs when the user profile features of BGG are obviously designed so that you can indicate your interests, motivations, occupations &c. It is unfortunate that politeness is defined as not exposing any opinions that others might disagree with rather than just politely disagreeing.

No one has to conceal anything. However if you are going to put that badge on you have to expect that people will judge you by it, just like people judge me when I walk down the street with a tu-tu. As far as your second point goes, maybe you should look in your own backyard first, since it seems more than a few Christian Microbadgers are only too happy to not being exposed to opinions they disagree with.

I don't see why Christians should have to conceal their beliefs when the user profile features of BGG are obviously designed so that you can indicate your interests, motivations, occupations &c. It is unfortunate that politeness is defined as not exposing any opinions that others might disagree with rather than just politely disagreeing.

I don't think that anyone here want's Christians to conceal their beliefs. I don't know if my comment contributed to that impression. My comment was just that I find that certain people with the Christian microbadge aren't exactly good advertisements for their beliefs, given the way they behave. My problem is their behavior is impolite, not their badges. (It's only a few of the badge holders. I was jokingly generalising.) No one's saying you shouldn't have any badge you want, or believe anything you want.

Have you considered the possibility that the rude people with the Christian microbadges may be trolls? I won't commit the "no true Scotsman" fallacy by saying that anyone who behaves rudely is not really a Christian, but taking those people as exemplars is probably misguided. Trolls often take up strong idealistic positions to salt the wounds (and stoke the prejudices) of those they've offended. No matter your thoughts on Christians, seeing that a person who has offended you carries such a badge is likely to compound the injury and the ire. In the case that you are Christian, or sympathetic to Christians, you're likely to be even more angry because the person is setting a bad example and sullying the reputation of Christians. If you dislike Christians on some level, you're also likely to offer a vehement reaction at being spurned by "those Christians" again. A calculated antagonist has nothing to lose and a lot to gain by adding such details to his invented persona. If you think people won't go to such lengths, you haven't been long on the "internets."

No they're not trolls. They're established members. But I think, in fairness, there's a good chance that I only notice it because of the contrast with the badge. If people with BattleLore trivia badges were consistently rude I would never notice that fact. Also, I'm sure that I don't notice when people with Christian microbages are not being rude, because there's no reason to go check them out to see who they are. I'm not scanning their microbadges. So it's probably a bit of inadvertent selective attention on my part.

Eh, mostly I did not want to seem like a jerk for only being able to name FFG collaborative games.

I wear tights under the shorts as an assist to camera people, so they don't have to change light exposure times to compensate for my paste white legs! Besides - Skull tights rock. You just wish you had tights as cool as me.

And the Thaadd Loves Orcs came my 8 month campaign to get the Powers That Be on the Midnight movie let me BE an orc. Which succeeded. Providing I'm not on the digital cutting room floor, there is about 2 seconds of me getting killed in a rockfall... Had nothing to do at all with the OrcBoys being tall guys wearing full leather armour with swords....none whatsoever...

I think Gary is spot-on about the religious thing...you know, when I was growing up I never considered board games to be "wholesome", likely because everything I played was festooned with demons, tanks, and demon tanks. And lots of skulls. I liked the Fiend Folio better than the bible. Games were for nerds like me, not the Christers or the damn Mormons, they were all out to "get" games and gamers.

I can assure you that Mormons in good standing can and do play games involving demons, war, etc. Some may even read and enjoy this Web log.

I find it unlikely that established members are going to go to such extreme lengths as to pretend to be Chirstians for such an extended period of time just to pull of a trolling trick. If you disagree feel free to name who exactly you think doesn't belong to the religious group he claims. Regardless everyone will be getting Christian micro badges as I now have proof that God exists... that's right bitches, TIDE OF IRON IS SITTING ON MY DESK AS I TYPE THIS! SUCK ON THAT YOU YANK BASTARDS!

About the Christian thing, I think that Evangelical Christians just make themselves more visible than people of other faiths, so it seems like there are relatively more of them than there actually are.

Selective perception. We see what we see because we filter it. If we're looking for smokers, wow! Everyone's smoking.

For the record, I am also Christian. You will never catch me beating anyone over the head with it. My language is salty, and I've played every occult-themed game known to man (Dragonlords 1st Edition looks like it's a part of some Satanic ritual). But I try to be a nice guy, and that's why. Examples are much better than microbadges. Microbadges are for trivial stuff like "Go Braves!" or "I like steak."

Hey Thaadd, I need some replacement parts for a couple of recent FFG acquisitions! I hope you guys got my email.

Christians are just like liberal demagogues...the shrillest, most outspoken, and brash amongst them completely undermine any good and positive contributions the rest of them make and wind up making outsiders think that anyone under their respective banners are complete freaks.

On to the games, I'm dying to find a decent Christian themed game. Unfortunately, the Christian sub-culture tends to produce crap, as many of you know.

I don't see why there can't be a good game about the exodus. If they can make an 'alrigtht' game about the puerto rican slave trade, they should be able to make a good game about David and the Israelites fighting the Goliath and the "uncircumcised" Philistines. The book of Judges would be a great theme, some of the stories are hilarious in there, like when the fat king gets stabbed with a sword and he's so fat that the hilt goes into him too. Seems to me that it would be a cash cow if a game publisher would give a Biblically themed game the treatment they would give a LOTR game.

You guys haven't seen anything until you've seen "Bible: The TCG". You want to talk about cash-ins? Here's a game where the cards look like they were designed in MS Paint, the mechanics of Magic were stolen wholesale, and the pictures are all of this guy's friends and kids with a sheet on their head to make them look Arabic. ("My, that sure is one pale Middle-Easterner!")

The best part is that one of the cards uses the phrase "Tap your Jesus to..." and does so completely without any sense of irony.

All kidding aside religion is serious and subjective. I for one don't like the idea of games based on religious themes unless it is the backdrop or setting. The overall mechanics should not have anything to do with actual beliefs and their interpretation because it just wont work. The only way to pull this off is to design a game that is targeted directly at a certain sects belief system.

I'm a Catholic (non practicing in the traditional sense)and I married a Mormon 15 years ago and it ended in disaster (for several reasons). The more fundamental the person the more unwavering the perception - no fun to game that. Design a game that Mormon's and Catholics can agree on the basic premise (Jesus lived and died)and after that part things quickly become argumentative and fall apart. Religion is for private consumption and does not necessarily "Play" to a larger audience. The reason we have so many splinter groups is because everyone has a different idea on how exactly the story should be told.

Religion and games = niche nonsense and boredom. Not enough freedom with gunplay. I play games to get a little action in that I would never bother with in real life, not the other way around. How about a game where you are "Tempted" to consume alcohol - OH MY!! I can imagine the white knuckled action.

Oh, don't worry...we'll catch up with the favorite characters and see where they've gone since we last met up with them. I'm going to stick to the BATMAN formula and introduce TWO villains in the second one.

I'm also thinking that Christ needs a sidekick. Other than John the Baptist.

One day I'm going to break down and write "The Bible 2" and become famous

Mohammed and Joespeh Smith already tried that. You need to do the Bible 4.

How about a game where you are "Tempted" to consume alcohol - OH MY!! I can imagine the white knuckled action.

There is some good shit in Exodus however.

Sorry if anyone is remotely offended.

As a Christian who enjoys beer, wine, and whiskey on occasion (so long as I won't cause another brother to stumble back into alcholism) i think this theme would be great.

Exodus is great because Christians, Jews, and Muslims all like Moses. Ancient Egyptians might be pissed though.

I think religous themes don't work more so because of non-believers than believers. For example, Ark of the Covenant is IMO the best of the Carcassone's, the sheperd scoring and Ark movement balance the game better for beginners. The theme is barely there but, if I try to bring it out with non-christians I get eyes rolling and complaints. I just don't get it.

... really shiny, with flames that occasionally are timed to jump out of his nostrels when the action heats up.

Seriously if they named it "Fart & Loven'it" with different artwork it would go over better, I know. There are a myriad reasons why for even devout Christians the theme can get off track because of the variation in viewpoint.

On to the games, I'm dying to find a decent Christian themed game. Unfortunately, the Christian sub-culture tends to produce crap, as many of you know.

Yeah, the Sistine Chapel really is crap.And I guess Crusader Rex sucks balls, and everyone who was praising it last week on here was drunk at the time.

The problem with religious boardgames is they normally have to dump a bunch of 'educational' shit in there because they are really meant to be conversion tools. If they could keep that aspect out Theme wise religion has awesome potential for boardgames. Fuck Starcraft, the next big boxed game should be Moses vs the Egyptians. "I cast 'plauge of locus on the left flank' before moving Moses back towards the burning busgh to get some healing."

Also am I the only one suspecting Barnes had bit of a traumatic childhood involving a priest? The dude seems to hate religion more than Stalin.

Also am I the only one suspecting Barnes had bit of a traumatic childhood involving a priest?

It's true. I went to a Catholic church and we had this youth group that my parents forced me to attend. It was Halloween and they put on a haunted house- a proper haunted house, not one of those bizarre "Hallelujah Houses" designed to scare kids into belief. In one of the rooms, one of our priests (Father Don)had this kid tied up and he had a circular saw dipped in blood that he turned on and menaced us with. I never forgot that image, and even today it's how I view the Catholic Church.

As a footnote...half the kids in the youth group were tripping that night. Not me or my pal David Green, we were straightedgers.

Hey- blame it on Minor Threat. Those were my hardcore days, skating and drawing black X's on the hands... Oh, Straight Edge. There is a movement that ages well. Knew a guy who tattooed full across his back all three X's. I hope he comes up with a good cover story for later in life. Unless he is still a chaste vegan water drinker...