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Your Comments on my West Bank Column

By Nicholas D. Kristof June 21, 2008 8:54 pmJune 21, 2008 8:54 pm

My Sunday column is about the West Bank occupation, told largely through Hebron. More broadly, I argue that when American politicians compete to be “pro-Israeli,” they too often line up behind the one that oppresses Palestinians on the West Bank and not enough behind the one of Israeli human rights groups, historians and journalists that fights relentlessly for fairness for those same Palestinians. I would love to see American politicians showing up not only at Aipac but also at B’Tselem.

Incidentally, there are a couple of newish books that powerfully underscore the problems with the West Bank occupation. One is “Lords of the Land,” by Idith Zertal, a prominent Israeli historian, and Akiva Eldar, the chief columnist of Ha’aretz newspaper in Israel. The book argues that the occupation has been a catastrophe for both Israelis and Palestinians. the second book is “Palestine Inside Out,” by Saree Makdisi a professor of English at UCLA. I recommend both.

But mostly, I encourage Americans and Israelis alike go out to the West Bank. B’Tselem offers tours, and by all means talk to the settlers as well as Palestinians. But too often people expound on policy toward the West Bank without ever having actually gone out and talking to Palestinians there.

I was pleased to see that the comments on my Thursday Gaza column, from both sides, were mostly sharp without being uncivil. As before, you’re welcome to comment on previous comments, but don’t call anyone names. I want this blog to be a forum for intelligent disagreement, not for mud-throwing. I look forward to your comments.

Finally, a fair and balanced piece from N. Kristoff. But it would be interesting if, for once, instead of critiquing or commending the performance of the antagonists, he would come up with a realistic concrete proposal for what each side must do, step by step, to resolve the issue in a fair and lasting way. This would give us a standard by which to place blame in the future for failure to resolve the issue. Which side didn’t do what Kristoff thinks it should do to resolve the matter? If Kristoff doesn’t provide such a standard, but continues to simply stand on the sidelines and assess the behavior of those who have been unable to resolve the issue for 60 years, why should we care about his assessments?

Israelis should know what oppression means, and should learn to live peaceably side by side with a Palestian State, and not try to oppress their neighbor, and respect those non-jewish people who live or work in Israel. That is really all that is needed for world peace.

How about the “two Palestinians.” There is the one peaceful, family and business-oriented one and the other who raises her children to be terrorists (“martyrs” they call them). If we didn’t have the latter Palestinian, Israel would be much more likely to be one Israel – the democratic, inclusive country it has always aspired to be (and, as you wrote, often is). In fact, Israel is still the most inclusive society of any in the Middle East.

You use the word “occupation,” without realizing that this is a word with legal significance. It means a conquered territory over which the defeated country will someday re-establish sovereignty over. Jordan, which once controlled the West Bank of the Jordan river, has relinquished any claim to the West Bank. Besides Israel, there is no national authority with a claim to the West Bank.

Israel administers the territories as best as she can. It is difficult because she seeks to give the Arab residents there some autonomy, but they use the freedom to murder Israelis. Israel must respond with security measures. In the United States a far more inchoate threat led to suspension of Habeas Corpus, but most people don’t seem to mind.

Your article fails to exmplain why in the world Israel would give a darn about Hebron, a town where they seem unwelcome, where there are no particular natural resources and which by your own statement is enormously expensive to possess in financial and diplomatic costs.

Perhaps it relates to the fact that it is the site where the Patriarchs and three of the Matriarchs are buried. The land was purchased for a fair price and we have the deed. Genesis 23:17-20.

Maybe Israel should trade the tomb of the patriarchs for the Temple Mount, the site where Abraham offered his son Isaac for a sacrifice, and where King Solomon built the Holy Temple. Oh, by the way, that site is also in Arab hands, by permission of the Israelis.

These arguments may be easily dismissed by you. But remember, the Jewish people have a national religion, and these sites are the holiest places in the world to Jews. To deny the legitimacy of these claims is to diminish the legitimacy of the Jewish people. That’s so 20th century!

Again, a thoughtful reasoned article, clearly with the intent of promoting a broader understanding of a difficult situation. Your mention of B’Tselem was most welcome, which as an organization, seems demonstrative of the best qualities inherent in Israelis. It is not productive to reduce the Israeli/Palestinian conflict into a simplistic good against evil fight. There are honorable people on all sides. Similarly, there are people intent on sabotaging all chances for peace. Their voices and actions must be supplanted by those whose goals and objectives lead to a commonsense resolution of the myriad issues and grievances, on all sides.

This column is the most honest piece on Israel/Palestine that has ever appeared on the OpEd page. And yet it describes a condition that the whole world, except the US, knows to exist. I don’t care how many lobbyists are hired, you can’t make the people think that up is down, that the Palestinians are the perpetrators and not the victims. The condition of the occupied territories is a complete and utter disgrace; yet the media and our politicians pretend that it is all done in the name of security or some kind of historical justice. No more lies–and this applies to Obama as well. If he starts to sound like McCain on this issue, I won’t vote for him. He’s well on that path already.

I believe starting your column with a title about Israeli actions in Gaza and the West Bank and then describing how horrible Israeli settlers are is a bit manipulative. A fact many journalists like to forget is that Israel has removed all its settlements in Gaza. Also, the Israeli siege around Gaza isn’t an Israeli siege – it’s a joint Egyptian and Israeli siege, and should be regarded as such.

It’s true that Israel’s behavior in the West Bank is shameful, but when Israel does something positive and removes settlements in Gaza, I think this kind of journalism should commend it, and not continue an automatic instinct of bashing.

Finally, in such a column it should at least be stated in a word why there is a siege around Gaza or checkpoints in the West Bank and how effective these measures have been in preventing terror attacks.

Mr. Kristof: You are bit dishonest when you describe the Jewish community in Hebron. First, you ignore the Jews of Kiryat Arba which is part of Hebron. Second, you ignore the fact that Jews have a right to live in Hebron. The land they occupy there was always Jewish owned with real and not fake deeds, only absconded by virtue of past Arab pogroms (1920’s). And Hebron is one of 3 holy Jewish holy sites. As you may not know, Hebron is home to the Cave of the Patriarchs and Matrriarchs, a site referred to in Bible and built up by the Jewish King Herod. Until the 15th century Jews had access to this holy site. But between that time and 1920’s, Moslems restricted Jewish access to the perimeter of the compound (Christians were more lucky, they could get to the steps, but not inside. After the 1920’s Jews were evicted from Hebron). Moslems built a mosque on this site and forbid Jews (and Christians) the right to pray. Ask the mayor of Hebron if he would give access to Jews (and Christians) if the Cave reverted to its former Moslem control (his answer has been, no). Why should Hebron be closed to Jewish access while Jerusalem’s Temple Mount (not even mentioned in the Koran), be open to Muslims?

I also doubt your description of the poor access thru the checkpoints. I was in Hebron in December and I did not witness anything you describe. Palestinian cars drive thru with minimal hardache-unless there has been a terrorist attack in the area.

Last, why don’t you report on the fraud perpetrated by the PLO and French TV2 for creating the Mohammed Al Dura story that led to the 2nd Intifada and tens of thousands of casualties for Palestinians and Israelis. This is what created the current animosity and distrust between Palestinian and Israeli. Had it not been for failed and corrupt leadership (former and current), the Palestinians would have greater autonomy.

Dear Mr. Kiristof;
As a long time reader/admirer of your columns I congratulate you for covering the Israeli/Palestinian conflict from a unique and important angle. In many conflicts around the world the media lens usually focus on the combatants and the victims to a lesser degree. It is very important that we are carefull when describing things in general plural things, so not to assign collective blame. I agree with you there is no one Israeli consensus. What is sad is in most cases the ones who shout the loudest or do the most outragoeus acts get the coverage. Your article was different and refreshing, not every Israeli is settler or zealot Likudnik. This is valid in all conflicts. The majority of population in conflict areas are not willing participants, but caught in horrible circumstances they can’t afford or able to flee.
Liban Mahamed

What a great pity that this problem continues. Both sides are equally to be blamed. It was not the poor Palestinians that harmed the Jews in the first place. It was the Nazis and before them bigoted Christians. The Israelis are asking for future trouble and it will come to them in one form or another, surely

I very recently came across an Israeli blog debating the merits of John Hagee and his evangelical christian followers. Apparently, they are donating lots of money and effort for Jewish causes. No where does there appear to be any realization by the Israeli bloggers that these “friendly” evangelicals have a very sinister agenda. They believe that Israel will be the site of Jesus’ second coming and where the horrific armageddon will occur. This is something that needs to be exposed and written about. Christian evangelicals are not friends to Israelis.

For some of us, Kristof’s description of life in the West Bank is both heartbreaking and familiar. And then the two Israels: The brute occupiers and the human-rights stalwarts. But Kristof’s (UNDERSTATED) wish that the presidential candidates address these realities brings my problem into focus:

The prevailing assumption, made by U.S. Presidents and candidates alike, is simply that politicians must be “pro-Israel, and that this means supportive of the status quo (which is occupation — enforced by a matchless military machine which could not exist without U.S. backing).

Why are the assumptions — reflected egregiousty in Obama’s recent speech to AIPAC — so far from the reality reported by Kristof, and there for years for anyone to see and learn? We have a nightmare confluence of media environment (not conspiracy, but tone and assumptions), political kowtowing and lobbying muscle.

I believe that the usually downplayed minority of “hard” Israeli (and American, European etc.) peace activists are like the anti-tobacco “extremists” of the 1950s. Accurate, moral, and marginalized. Maybe this is changing a bit now, but nowhere is it more true than here: The “the world’s only superpower,” lives in abusive symbiosis with “the Mideast’s only democracy.” Muderous mythology.

I will give you credit for at least presenting the different sides of the issue, which not all columnists actually do.

However, I think your column omits to discuss the larger picture — why exactly there are “settlers” in Hebron. The answer of course is the presence of the Tomb of the Partriarchs, which is Judaism’s second holiest site. I was fortunate enough to have the opportunity to visit the city and holy site 3 years ago. The presence of the IDF and “settlers” is important because unfortunately, other Jewish holy sites that were placed under Palestinian rule have ultimately been destroyed during this decade by the local Arab population (Joseph’s Tomb in Nablus and the ancient synagogue in Jericho). Therefore, the lack of reference to the holy nature of the city to Judaism leads to a situation where the full context is not presented to the average reader.

Also, I think some of the statistics that you cite are a bit misleading:

1. The old argument that there are 160k Palestinians and only 800 Jews in Hebron. I don’t dispute those numbers, but at the same time, I would add the 9,000 residents of Kiryat Arba that live less than a mile away. So the more accurate comparison is really 160k versus 10k. In any event, it is the implication of citing these numbers that I reject. The point that authors usually want to convey is that Jews shouldn’t be allowed to live in a certain area if there are simply not enough of them in the eyes of the beholder. Of course, though, this only applies to Jews. No one would ever write a column and imply that Arabs can’t live in Haifa becuase they are only 10% of the city’s population.

2. “almost one-third of settlement land is actually privately owned by Palestinians” – this of course refers to Peace Now’s report which was then the focus of a NY Times article. Of course, later on, it was determined that the Peace Now report contained significant errors, which even the group conceded. See //www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/03/14/africa/ME-GEN-Israel-Settlements.php

In any event, one of the major problems in the region is the issue of disputed land ownership. In the last 100 years, there has been Ottoman, British, Jordanian, and Israeli rule over the area. At the same time, record keeping in the region has not always been superb.

Again, though, I will commend you for at least presenting the opinions of all of the parties in the region. As a Palestinian state is created, Hebron is certainly one of the issues that will require a creative solution. A way needs to be found that will preserve the fabric-of-life of the local Arab residents, while recognizing and accomodating the fact that Judaism’s second holiest site is within the city.

Thank you so much for the courage to speak the truth and to challenge both sides. I truly wonder–maybe you can tell me–whether the columnists who parrot the Israeli government line ever actually go to the occupied areas without Israeli soldiers and make an effort to hear from the Palestinians themselves. (I know they do talk to the Israelis, as they should.) I would think this to be an obligation of any journalist commenting on this subject.

I have been to Hebron (and Gaza), and on my trips to Israel-Palestine I made an attempt to talk with everyone from every perspective I could find. I share your impressions. As an American Jew who wants to see a just, two-state solution, I hope you will continue to tell the truth to the American people and help make it possible for a new president to support a fair Palestinian-Israeli policy.

First, have you pondered why it is that a Jew cannot live in the West Bank safely? Arabs live safely in Israel. Why is the presence of a Jew there cause for such fury that, at least to you, is so easy to understand? Second, if the checkpoints and security measures instituted since 2000 are the actual cause of the rage, as you suggest, why is it that the four wars against Israel occurred when there were no checkpoints, no West Bank presence of Jews? Finally, Arab terror attacks on Jews in Palestine and Israel were very common throughout the 20th century, from the 1920’s onward. Why do you think the cause is traceable to something that happened during your life?

Intelligence is great, but should not “God” be greater? Some think so. If civility dominates, “God” is submitted to man. “God” is then made in the image of man, a pale residue. Heresy means: making a choice. “God” does not allow for choice, it’s the eternal return of the past (of the same fascist past, more exactly).

Civility is genuinely secular, it says nothing dominates man. A very good thing for the fanatics of both sides to meditate (fanatics, from fanum, the temple in Latin). And obviously a hard thing for them to embrace.

If the Palestinians had tried to establish a peaceful state at any time between 1948 and 1967, your article about the oppressive effects of the Israeli occupation on the Palestinians might be valid. But they didn’t. And you know this. If there had been no terrorist attacks on the Jews of Israel by Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza
before 1967, then maybe you might have a point when you talk about how Palestinians are suffering. But there were terrorist attacks by Palestinians on Jews in Israel before 1967, dozens of them. And you know this. If Palestinian women pretending to be pregnant had not turned out to be suicide bombers, then your description of poor Palestinian pregnant women being stopped at checkpoints might be supportable. But Palestinian women pretending to be pregnant have killed Jews. And you know this.

The simple and obvious truth is that the Palestinians have, since 1948, been waging a war to destroy the State of Israel, and kill every Jew in the State of Israel. Now, the Palestinians have the right to wage this war if they wish. They do not, however, have the right to win that war. And they do not have the right to control the measures the Jews take in order not be destroyed.

The Palestinian message to the world is essentially: “The Jews are oppressing us because they will not let us kill them as we wish.” And “politically correct” pundits like yourself buy this, and blame the Jews for refusing to be murdered.

There is no doubt that the Palestinians have been leading a miserable existence for the last 60 years. If they want to know who is to blame for their miserable plight, they need only look in the mirror. Or, they could simply quit trying to kill Jews at every opportunity and destroy the State of Israel. But I guess, for politically correct columnists like you, that is just to much to ask.

Mr. Kristof writes a sincere article on the issue in the Middle East between the Israelis and the Palestinians. I living in NYC was able to distribute literature about B’Telsem(Hebrew I believe for God’s Image) in my area. Yes, the are many Israelis who see the horror and are willing to expose the shame and truth about the events occurring in the West Bank and other areas…UNFORTUNATELY GOVERNMENT POLICIES SUPERSEDE THAT OF HUMANITY. Your thoughts are genuine but not realistic. I’m sorry.

What’s sad is the utter lack of expression in the US for the terrible living conditions the Palestinians face, coupled with a constant arrogant pro Israeli media cover all over the nation. where are the American intellectuals today? what do they think of your articles and how can there be any reasonable argument towards Israel. where is Thomas Friedman in all of this and why haven’t we heard from him?
it is very rare to read articles as such and i commend the author for doing that.
what’s happening today cannot but confirm the rogue nation that is Israel, regardless of the human rights movements from within. Nothing alleviates and justifies the choking of a nation, the suffocation of an entire people for having chosen democratically and the continuation of settlement expansion regardless of international laws and regulation. Israel cannot exist like that, they jeopordize their own democracy.
In the end, i blame not Israel but the US government and the entire world for having simply stood by, always finding a way to justify what’s happening to the Palestinian people.

A wonderful op-ed! Thank you Mr. Kristof! I was in Hebron in 2007 and saw exactly what you wrote of–the disgusting injustices against the Palestinians, but also the courageous and justice-minded Israelis. American’s have to learn that “pro-Israeli” doesn’t mean “pro-hawkish Israeli occupation policies.” I came away believing that the most profound way of being “pro-Israeli” is to be “pro-Palestinian” since securing Palestinian human rights are a prerequisite to establishing Israeli security.
Thanks again for that courageous op-ed.

I don’t quite understand the failure of Mr. Kristof to properly weigh the assault on Israel after 2000. This Arab on Jew violence occurred immediately after Ehud Barak made a ridiculously generous offer to Yasser Arafat [that he rejected]. The myriad of suicide bombings – its as though they never happened….as though Israelis are supposed to willfully share in the pernicious amnesia that Mr. Kristof has brought upon himself.

Well, there are a critical mass of Israelis who are not willing to forget the threat. They understand the need for checkpoints. Furthermore, they will not partake in the suicidal behavior of which Mr. Kristof’s recent columns push them towards – to tear down these lifesaving security checkpoints.

The Israelis don’t have blinders on. They are fully aware of the hardships that the checkpoints cause to the Palestinians. However, in the end Israelis had to make a tough choice: Either continue to be the victims of Arab antisemitic violence or to install drastic safety measures that adequately protect themselves from their attackers.

1. You start out by stating “To travel through the West Bank and Gaza these days feels like traveling through Israeli colonies.” Gaza a colony? There is not a single Jew there. No Israeli presence whatsoever. So what colony? And indeed your article focuses on Hebron in the West Bank. Moreover you already wrote about Gaza specifically on Thursday. So why mention Gaza at all?

2. Its curious that you chose Hebron as your sample city. It’s well know that this city has an extremist tradition; the Jews since the 1970’s and Arabs from much earlier. It would stand to reason that the situation there would be the most polarized. And its odd, given that its the only place Jews and Arabs live side by side in the West Bank (making it non-representative) that you would focus on it.

3. In Hebron, the center of the city for the Arab majority has in fact shifted years ago outside of the Israeli areas (yes, because of the heavy security restrictions). And since you were in Hebron you no doubt saw that yourself. You wrote the center is in Israeli hands; not true. That’s like saying the Old City of Jerusalem is the center of Jerusalem. Except in terms of politics and religion that is not true for either the Arabs or the Jews.

4. You wrote “Even if the Hebron settlement were not illegal in the eyes of much of the world, it is utterly impractical. The financial cost is mind-boggling, and the diplomatic cost is greater.” That is called reaching; its really not your argument. Anyway, a right … like the right to live somewhere, if it needs to be enforced can indeed cost money. If the Israelis have the right to live in Hebron (which you assumed here and anyway, I would suspect is your main issue), then the cost issue is not primary – enforcement of their rights to life and property by the Israeli state is.

4. You wrote “Polls show that two-thirds of Palestinians now approve of terror attacks against civilians in Israel, up from 40 percent in 2005.” I’d love to know where you got that 40% statistic. I haven’t seen a number that low that I can recall over the past decade. Indeed, I’d submit the 40% number was probably the outlier, not the current result.

5. You wrote “By turning toward the zealots of Hamas, and toward the short-term thrill of sending rockets into Israel, they are building a tombstone for their state before it is even born.” But just this Thursday you congratulated Israel for now negotiating with Hamas; indeed you argued it was essential for Gaza. You are contradictory. If Israel can negotiate with Hamas and grant them territorial control, which you submit they must, then it is not national suicide for the Palestinians to back them. Given Fatah ineptitude (and the fact that Israelis know Fatah also takes part in terrorism despite its leadership of the PA) they may in act be making the right bet.

6. You wrote “I would love to see American politicians showing up not only at Aipac but also at B’Tselem.” AIPAC is U.S. citizens, of all political types. B’Tselem is Israelis and almost all of one political type (very much left wing).

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