You know the guy for 10 years, you know he has the hots for you..........

Sounds kinda shady to me.

You also think he's hot, and decide maybe you're kinda into him, then you both get shitfaced and lie down together (and then the next night you go back and lie down next to him).

Date rape is date rape, getting shitfaced and waking up full of regret and confusion isn't.

The confusion, fear and other awful emotions you felt then, and have carried for three years are just horrible.

Hopefully, you've been getting counseling to deal with all of that, and perhaps confront the role you played in - I won't call it date rape, as I'm not convinced based on the evidence at hand - what happened.

And you don't get shitfaced and crawl into the back of trucks with men anymore. That you suspect have been "in love with" you for some time.

Or, at some point when you woke up several times beforehand, you should have left the truck.

You shouldn't have to think or believe anything, you should have sat down and talked to him straight away, the morning after. Especially if you'd known him for ten years, and considered him a friend. And, if you weren't comfortable confronting him one-on-one, you could have asked a Ranger or someone in Sanctuary to help mediate.

You might also want to get involved in volunteering with BED this year, and help spread the word about avoiding just these sorts of scenarios.

Just this weekend my friend was fucked up, and wandered off with a boy. I followed shortly there-after and found her with a different boy - now topless, and I asked (with my megaphone), "Are you being raped?"

She wasn't, it gave them both pause to take a step back and think about what they were doing. I have zero tolerance for even the potential of misunderstandings when it comes to sexual relations.

Anyways. Again, it's unfortunate and sad this happened, and I hope blogging about it helps you heal, but I also hope that in your journey to heal you find truth.

Shambala wrote:I logged in more that once to post a reply here, but decided not to because I am a male. I agree with everything that CFM said, but if I said it, it would have been misconstrued.

A date rape is something very different. I think this was more having sex with an old friend and then having regrets about it.

Having sex and then regretting it is one thing, not remembering having sex and then those ensuing emotions are another - but not necessarily "date rape."

Old friend, new friend, boyfriend or wife, if it isn't consensual, it's unfortunate. And, when it isn't consensual because we have rendered ourselves unable to give consent - or we have rendered ourselves unable to realize we are not getting consent, it is even more so regrettable.

Wow C.F.M.! Very good. main reason I didn't even bother to finish that one was because I didn't wanna be bothered. but thanks for picking up the ball and being so diplomatic about it.
I'm kinda sensitive to these sort of things, not because of the possibility of there being a rape but worse, the fact there was not really a rape and everyone's life would have been messed up if things had gotten any further.

Especially it being that it happened at BM.

I wont get into it any further but wanted to say thanks for how you handled that.

Shambala wrote:This is one of those very HOT POTATO subjects and I'm not sure why this was regurgitated from 4 years ago---with a first post no less. :roll:

Yeah I noticed, new poster on eplaya and this is the first post. I wonder if this might be part of her "healing process". I read most of the blog account and have to agree with C.f.M.'s comments as well. If Burning Man is all about being self-reliant why did this person allow herself to get so fucked up that she was unable to communicate her needs or say no.

Shambala wrote:I logged in more that once to post a reply here, but decided not to because I am a male. I agree with everything that CFM said, but if I said it, it would have been misconstrued.

A date rape is something very different. I think this was more having sex with an old friend and then having regrets about it.

Shambala, it's funny, even though I'm female I also hesitated before posting on this thread. I thought maybe I shouldn't because I'm a burgin. I'm glad we both posted anyway because, she tossed this "hot potato" out into the cyber universe for comments...therefore...blah, blah, blah from us. ;-)

Shambala wrote:I logged in more that once to post a reply here, but decided not to because I am a male. I agree with everything that CFM said, but if I said it, it would have been misconstrued.

A date rape is something very different. I think this was more having sex with an old friend and then having regrets about it.

Shambala, it's funny, even though I'm female I also hesitated before posting on this thread. I thought maybe I shouldn't because I'm a burgin. I'm glad we both posted anyway because, she tossed this "hot potato" out into the cyber universe for comments...therefore...blah, blah, blah from us.

I'm glad it was the females that stepped up to the plate.

I was sooo tempted to say more but as anyone on eplaya knows, if I had said anymore than I had, I probally would have gotten the boot for being too blunt and to the point.

If you have something to say - something pertinent and intelligent, chime in. Erotic discourse.

It's ridiculous that because women are scared to speak up for themselves, or other men are afraid of sounding mean, that sexual assualt goes unreported - or un-interrupted to start with.

I can give many additional examples of scenarios I've where I flat-out walked in the middle and said "what is going on here?"

In public places!

All involving drunk people.

Just because it's a free-for-all "burn" doesn't mean you can't pipe up and make sure alles klar.

If you saw some dude holding a purse with a strap attached to a little old lady, you'd do something, right?

Same with if you see someone who looks uncomfortable or is trying to get away from somebody. A simple, "Are you OK?" "Is everything OK?" "Do you want to come wander this way with me?" Can relieve a potentially dangerous situation in less than five minutes.

I haven't gone over and read the blog, but having sex with someone too intoxicated to make decisions about it (I will have to get the exact language we use, I know that's not it) is rape. I believe in all fifty states, certainly in Nevada.
From what was said in this thread, there certainly were boundary intrusions. I know these things are messy, and frustraiting for all parties trying to understand what's going on, again a good reason not to mix substances and new sexual friendships.
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A knowing and intently forcing B to have sex with them against their will would qualify.

Two people getting shitfaced and fooling around doesn't.

If I go out, make the choice to get blackout drunk and wake up next to some guy I don't remember going home with I don't consider myself raped. Irresponsible. Foolish. Yes. But to just cry "date rape!" I feel takes the power away from actual events of rape and date rape.

The more grey cases such as this one are no less wretched for the victims, but I do not feel that to assume complete victim-stance is the best way to handle it - nor to heal from it.

The evidence as presented there does not add up to undeniable "date rape" - it adds up to unfortunate, regrettable, maddening and sad, definitely. It adds up to something that happens WAY TOO FUCKING MUCH. It angers me and frustrates me and annoys me, but still.

Nobody here - including the two people involved, due to their admitted level of intoxication - can truly know what happened. We were not there.

I'm old enough to remember when date rape came into popular use. I woke up naked and confused a few times, but I usually assumed the guy was just as confused.

Now we are more educated, I feel downright stupid for the situations I ventured into, often willingly. Bad choices, drunken decisions. But do I blame the men? Not most of them, they were just as stupid as I.

I have many more thoughts, but this isn't the place or context for them.

AntiM wrote:I'm old enough to remember when date rape came into popular use. I woke up naked and confused a few times, but I usually assumed the guy was just as confused.

Now we are more educated, I feel downright stupid for the situations I ventured into, often willingly. Bad choices, drunken decisions. But do I blame the men? Not most of them, they were just as stupid as I.

Exactly - and sadly, the whole "too drunk to know what's going on" date rape question has generated a newer term for these sorts of situations, "gray rape."

Even after 4 years, the female can still go back and report this as a rape. If it comes out in all the extensive therapy that she feels she was a victim, then the guy is screwed. All she has to do is say, "I said no and he still did it", (true or not) then he is a rapist. What a powerful weapon the law has provided here.

I agree with both AntiM and CFM, but all you need is a bit of spite, and the guy is going to jail for 5 years.

Shambala wrote:Even after 4 years, the female can still go back and report this as a rape. If it comes out in all the extensive therapy that she feels she was a victim, then the guy is screwed. All she has to do is say, "I said no and he still did it", (true or not) then he is a rapist. What a powerful weapon the law has provided here.

I agree with both AntiM and CFM, but all you need is a bit of spite, and the guy is going to jail for 5 years.

If it's NOT "consensual" it is not considered "unfortunate" it is called Rape. If one person is not CONSCIOUS, then yes it is rape. Ask any trained psychologist or therapist and they will tell you the same. If a man is in love with you, that does not mean he OWNS you. It does not give him the right to do anything he wants to you. Getting so drunk that you can't stand up does not make you fair game to be fucked by the first guy who comes along. Perhaps we should all attend Burning Man sober to ensure that nothing like that happens again? Being incapicated to the point of not being able to stand up does NOT make you a willing participant in sex because you didn't stand up and walk away.

@ the representative from B. E. D. Maybe you should rethink your position and try to find someone a bit more qualified to replace you.

Any guy who goes to Burning man thinking, "Oh there's a lot of hot naked girls there who just want to get fucked it's so awesome! Girls there are all on drugs they're all fucked up and they're all freaky and down to do anything!" is potentially a rapist!

I really appreciate all of your really idiotic comments though which have done nothing but make things even clearer to me. Don't get me wrong though. I still go to Burning Man. I think it's an amazing event. I won't let one Asshole ruin it for me. There are a lot of really great people there in spite of all the losers.

Also, I just wanted to add this. I never in a million years would have dreamed of pressing charges against this person. I'm way too compassionate of a person. Which is probably what my problem is. Like I said in my blog, there was no way I could accept what happened at the time. This was a huge betrayal by someone I trusted deeply, something I would not, and could not accept had happened. There's no doubt in my mind that what happened, by all definitions was definitely rape. The thing is, you can never know what is in someone's heart. I know I was not conscious and did not willingly participating in the act. That is something I know for a fact. What I don't know is: why did this person do this? Was it an act of hate or violence or just an "accident". I have heard that men who have been rejected by a woman will rape her to punish her or put her in her place. I'll never know what was going through his head. Maybe he wasn't coherent enough to realize what he was doing and it wasn't neccessarily a violent act. I think it was more something in between, like "I
want what I want and I'm just going to take it. She'll never know the difference.". Then the next day it was like,"Fuck I hope I don't get in trouble for this, how am I going to get out of it?"

This isn't about, "Is he or isn't he a criminal? Should I or should I not press charges?" Although maybe I should press charges, maybe this person is violent and I still just don't want to accept it. I think most people in this situation want to be acknowledged, not have it implied that they are lying or that it was their fault. It's all about respect for women and taking responsibility for your actions. Men who commit these acts need to take responsiblity for them and need to admit what they have done wrong. There needs to be some sort of accountability, some willingness on their part to say, " I really fucked up. What I did was wrong and some willing ness to make reribution for it." Of course, this becomes a catch 22. You can't talk about it because any admission of guilt means the victim can press charges and use what you say against you. I'm not particularly a fan of the legal system and going that whole route to handle situations like this.

However, I could say what happened was never that big of a deal. I could say it doesn't matter. I let him off the hook and never pressed charges, but what does that do but send the message to men everywhere that it's OK.... Women don't really mind being date raped that much, so just go ahead and do it if you've got the urge and just can control yourself.

I say that women everywhere DEMAND the right to drink themselves into oblivion, pass out in the middle of the playa, or in whoever's truck or tent they feel like, without having to wake up the next morning naked wondering what happened to them

SFB... since you were blacked out and don't 'know' what happened, why on earth didn't you ask him- either the next day, or later, or now? As I read it, you still don't know what transpired... you woke up with no clothes on and ??...
If he was as drunk as you were, how is he any more/less responsible for whatever did (or didn't) happen than you? You write that you trusted him, that you two were long time friends... I'd at least get his version of events, see what his experience was...
I've been drunk enough (on tequila) that I would willingly have sex with a friendly, known person and then not remember it happening in the morning... I'm not proud of that, but I know it can happen.... watch out for the little worm, ya'll!!!

SFBurnergrrrl wrote:I say that women everywhere DEMAND the right to drink themselves into oblivion, pass out in the middle of the playa, or in whoever's truck or tent they feel like, without having to wake up the next morning naked wondering what happened to them

I'm not usually one to pipe up on these kinds of threads but I think a lot (if not most of us) have done some pretty stupid shit in our time that we regret. I skimmed through your blog, I don't agree that Travis' actions are and were in anyway acceptable, however, I am bothered by your last line (quoted above), basically it's telling me that you want it to be ok for you (I'm assuming you are now in your mid 30's) to be stupid ass drunk and just crawl into bed with whomever, pass out, and just expect nothing will happen?? I think you may have some deeper dilusions.

SFBurnergrrrl wrote:Although maybe I should press charges, maybe this person is violent and I still just don't want to accept it. I think most people in this situation want to be acknowledged, not have it implied that they are lying or that it was their fault. It's all about respect for women and taking responsibility for your actions. Men who commit these acts need to take responsiblity for them and need to admit what they have done wrong. There needs to be some sort of accountability, some willingness on their part to say, " I really fucked up.

"maybe this person is violent and I still just don't want to accept it."?

What? You say you know this person for 10 years and you suddenly think maybe they may be violent?
I'm sorry but that really sucks and it's one of the reasons I stay away from certain girls.

"I think most people in this situation want to be acknowledged, not have it implied that they are lying or that it was their fault. It's all about respect for women and taking responsibility for your actions. Men who commit these acts need to take responsiblity for them and need to admit what they have done wrong. There needs to be some sort of accountability, some willingness on their part to say, " I really fucked up."

And females that get fucked up and/or pass out souldn't be accountable or be resposible for their behavior?

Lets be real here.

I had a girlfriend last year that got drunk, mind you I was too, that decided she was going to strip off all her clothes and demand that I go and have sex with her. I did not feel like it at the time because I was really into my NIN (Nine Inch Nails) at the time and told her wait a bit and I would join her.
Or there were other things she could do to maybe get me in the mood in the mean time? But at that moment I wanted my NIN.

She gets uptight and starts punching me in the head. PUNCHING ME IN THE HEAD!

I just packed up and left. The next morning she calls me and tells me she was sorry and that she should not have hit me. Mind you, I had already forgotten about that and was more concerned about what she was upset about in the first place.

(mind you at the time the night before I have to admit, I was not getting the fact that she wanted to do it)

So kinda like the shoe is on the other foot. Sex is a two way street sometimes.
Now I am not in anyway saying that my situation is in anyway the same as yours but when you bring up the issue of responsibillity........