If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

Seriously. Melodist has the right of. If you are going to push this question to its limit you are going to just dredge up God's "ontological" will versus "providential" will in whatever cloak it is wrapped in.

Because the Creation, without certain intervention from God, is naturally inclined to chaos and decay, and humanity without integral communion with God is also and is subject to suffering from natural chaotic forces.

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Because the Creation, without certain intervention from God, is naturally inclined to chaos and decay, and humanity without integral communion with God is also and is subject to suffering from natural chaotic forces.

In addition to that, I'd like to add that God did something unique. Most of us expect to be saved from a situation. God became part of the situation. He became man and lived within the natural chaos and death-purposed world. He showed us how to make the best of it whatever the situation may be. He wants us to concentrate not on materialistic salvation, but on spiritual salvation and all things will come by eventually in the Promise of the Age to Come.

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Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

This is the best explanation for why this happened. The current nuclear disaster occurred because Japan is heavily reliant upon nuclear power.

I must say that even with how "un-christian" Japan is as a nation, I am really impressed/humbled by how this culture is responding to this disaster. They are helping each other without thought of personal gain.

Our evangelicals put out e-mails that the Christchurch earthquake was because of Freemasons worshipping in the Christchurch cathedral and homosexuals living in the city.

Oh, they have WBC in NZ also? Just once I'd like to see one of those self satisfied so-and-so's come out after a disaster and say something like "I think this happened because of my own sins. I guess G-d wants me to use this as an occasion to examine my own life and see how I can do better".

on 2nd thought it might be more fun to see one of those self satisfied so-and-so's come out.

ust once I'd like to see one of those self satisfied so-and-so's come out after a disaster and say something like "I think this happened because of my own sins. I guess G-d wants me to use this as an occasion to examine my own life and see how I can do better".

Don't hold your breath.

Quote

on 2nd thought it might be more fun to see one of those self satisfied so-and-so's come out.

Seriously. Melodist has the right of. If you are going to push this question to its limit you are going to just dredge up God's "ontological" will versus "providential" will in whatever cloak it is wrapped in.

Seriously. Melodist has the right of. If you are going to push this question to its limit you are going to just dredge up God's "ontological" will versus "providential" will in whatever cloak it is wrapped in.

Search through that series of his, "Speaking the Truth in Love", with the word "suffering" and he deals frankly and (un)apologetically with the issue of the "Theodicy" or "problem of evil".

Oh come on...

A brief explanation of your perspective in addition to your cliche hair trigger response possible? Christians can understand the hard reality of tragedy too & many will send & give charitable aid to the living suffering & pray for the souls of those departed.

You're not wrong totally; it's morally neutral beyond our control - i.e. weather phenomena happen because there's sin and violence and death in the world, so it's morally neutral outside of our own contribution to it. Moral: We should stop sinning.

"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

This is the best explanation for why this happened. The current nuclear disaster occurred because Japan is heavily reliant upon nuclear power.

I must say that even with how "un-christian" Japan is as a nation, I am really impressed/humbled by how this culture is responding to this disaster. They are helping each other without thought of personal gain.

While I was still a Buddhist the Kobe earthquake happened. I have many friends there and I recall being intrigued by their behavior which was very stoic.

There are a couple of reasons for this. They believe in Karma, cause and effect. The people who died or are suffering did something. They "Made a Cause" that has resulted in this effect. It is not so much what caused the Quake ( which they would agree was caused by Plates shifting) but why were you there to suffer the consequences.

This original cause may not have even been done in this lifetime but could have been from many lifetimes ago. Or many causes over many lifetimes which has culminated in you getting washed out to Sea or getting nuked....etc.

On the bright side............. you have now expiated that bad Karma and your next life may be happier. You may have actually chosen this fate in the time between your last life and this one as a way to get rid of old bad Karma. You may have volunteered yourself for this.

As far as their orderliness, with all due respect, and I have much love for the Japanese, but I do know them pretty well. They are "The Borg".They have a hive mentality. They do not think so much as individuals as we do in the West, they identify with the Group. This does make for great orderliness and at least in this instance, is serving them well.

The current nuclear disaster occurred because Japan is heavily reliant upon nuclear power.

Incorrect. It does not matter how "heavily" reliant on nuclear power you are. If you just have one plant and it gets hit with a beyond design basis earthquake and a beyond design basis tsunami, the plant is not going to survive. As to the specifics of what happened in Japan, they had a lot to do with design and little to do with "heavy reliance". It would have been more accurate to say "the current nuclear disaster in Japan occured because the power plants there were designed for a 6.5 meter tsunami and were hit by one that measured anywhere from 7 meters to 10 meters." Had they been designed to be hit with a 30' wall of water, there would be no nuclear disaster regardless of how reliant Japan is on nuclear power.

BTW - our West Coast reactors are designed for a tsunami of around 20', much like the reactors in Japan. I am sure that will be under review in the upcoming months.

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I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Because the Creation, without certain intervention from God, is naturally inclined to chaos and decay, and humanity without integral communion with God is also and is subject to suffering from natural chaotic forces.

^ This.

I read a sermon once by St John Chrysostom (I think it was him...this was awhile ago), given, IIRC, after an earthquake hit Constantinople. He said that natural disasters occur because mankind is in rebellion against God.

This is not to be taken in the sense that Japan somehow made God angry and this was divine punishment, but in the sense that man's sinfulness has repercussions for the natural world, and it causes the natural world to buckle under the stress. We are image-bearers of God, and our actions do not rise to our calling. To be anthropomorphic, nature is offended that we tarnish God's image, and basically tries to wipe us out. After all, man's sin caused the pain of childbirth and the thorns of the earth. Basically, nature hates us for our sinfulness.

Terrifying as it is (and eyeroll-inducing to naturalists, no doubt), I am satisfied with this, because it also explains why saints like Seraphim of Sarov caused wild animals to be peaceful as lambs—he did rise to his calling, he bore the image of God in a proper way—and it made the natural world around him return to the peace of Eden.

Because the Creation, without certain intervention from God, is naturally inclined to chaos and decay, and humanity without integral communion with God is also and is subject to suffering from natural chaotic forces.

^ This.

I read a sermon once by St John Chrysostom (I think it was him...this was awhile ago), given, IIRC, after an earthquake hit Constantinople. He said that natural disasters occur because mankind is in rebellion against God.

This is not to be taken in the sense that Japan somehow made God angry and this was divine punishment, but in the sense that man's sinfulness has repercussions for the natural world, and it causes the natural world to buckle under the stress. We are image-bearers of God, and our actions do not rise to our calling. To be anthropomorphic, nature is offended that we tarnish God's image, and basically tries to wipe us out. After all, man's sin caused the pain of childbirth and the thorns of the earth. Basically, nature hates us for our sinfulness.

Terrifying as it is (and eyeroll-inducing to naturalists, no doubt), I am satisfied with this, because it also explains why saints like Seraphim of Sarov caused wild animals to be peaceful as lambs—he did rise to his calling, he bore the image of God in a proper way—and it made the natural world around him return to the peace of Eden.

After he had been beaten half to death by thieves.

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Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Seriously. Melodist has the right of. If you are going to push this question to its limit you are going to just dredge up God's "ontological" will versus "providential" will in whatever cloak it is wrapped in.

Search through that series of his, "Speaking the Truth in Love", with the word "suffering" and he deals frankly and (un)apologetically with the issue of the "Theodicy" or "problem of evil".

Oh come on...

You might not like the answer, but due to sin all of creation suffers. Man was to be able to give proper stewardship of the Garden of Eden and extend its "paradise" throughout all of creation.

This is why as Christians we should not only beg forgiveness of other humans, but of all creation also.

Jesus was able to calm the natural order not only in virtue of His divinity but also in virtue of His perfect humanity. Saints have shown similar abilities.

One of the sad aspects of catastrophes like the one Japan is going through now, is that due to the "scale of misery" does it cause people to ask such questions, when every death, disease, etc. should remind us of our fallen state and we should be suffer with those who suffer outside of "calamities" as well as with those within them.

If you actually listen to that podcast, Fr. Thomas Hopko quotes Stalin's old adage. "A million deaths are a tragedy, a single death a statistic." (My paraphrase.)

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North American Eastern Orthodox Parish Council Delegate for the Canonization of Saints Twin Towers and Pentagon, as well as the Propagation of the Doctrine of the Assumption of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 (NAEOPCDCSTTPPDAMAFM®).

Such a tsunami would inflict enormous damage on Alaska and the whole American seaboard.

"At the far end of Russia, there will be an enormous earthquake. The waters will break out of the ocean, flooding the continent, and many nations will perish. Many diseases beyond understanding will appear…. The face of the earth will change…. The people will comprehend their guilt; they will come to understand how far they have departed from God and from His teachings, and then they will begin to be reborn spiritually, gradually being cleansed physically, as well. People will become vegetarians. By that time, many animals will have vanished. The horse and the dog will only be seen in pictures; and later – the cow, the goat, and the sheep will disappear forever from our planet…. People will no longer be interested in politics, and the spiritual principle of each nation will predominate…"

As we enter more and more into this third millennium, we have begun to witness increasing natural and man-made disasters. Thousands of people have been killed, while millions have remained homeless during just the past five years. What does this mean to us?

There is no question that we are living at a time in human history when disasters of every kind are on the increase. It appears to be true that we are at the beginning of the prophesied latter day events.

Should we worry? As people of the Church, and as sons and daughters of God, we have no reason to worry or to fear. For we know that, when we stay close to God in prayer and in our corporate worship, we have no reason to feel insecure.

What should we do? As I have stated in the past in some of my encyclicals, we must always be ready to help the victims of such disasters. This means that all members of the Church, with the Philoptochos Society taking the lead, should be awakened more than ever before, becoming ever more generous and sacrificial in helping those less fortunate. In doing this we emulate our Lord Jesus Christ Who did not come into the world to be served, but He came in order to serve others.

Consequently, the Philoptochos Society must always be in the forefront of helping others, especially when disasters strike.

On Thursday, November 24, 2005 we, as Americans, will celebrate the only religious holiday that our nation has established, and which dates back to the days of President Abraham Lincoln. As we attend our worship services at church, or enter into private prayers, and especially as we sit at our Thanksgiving table laden with God's blessings, let us beseech Christ our God to alleviate the pain and the suffering of so many people throughout the world, and also to make us more sensitive to the needs of others. In this way we will truly be faithful sons and daughters, beloved children of God our Father, Who will continue to work through us for the good and the benefit of those who hunger and thirst, who are without clothing and shelter, and who look to us to diminish their tragic condition.

Finally, more than ever before, let us thank our good and loving God Who shelters us under His protection with all the blessings we enjoy each day of our lives.

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com

That's right. But why did those plates move at a specific time and place?

And most importantly as orthodox christians this tragedy should teach us something, shouldn't it? For one we need to learn to have compassion for those involved and to pray for them (alive or dead). But is this most important thing we (and especially Japanese people) should learn from the tragedy? To me this questions beg the answers.

That's right. But why did those plates move at a specific time and place?

And most importantly as orthodox christians this tragedy should teach us something, shouldn't it? For one we need to learn to have compassion for those involved and to pray for them (alive or dead). But is this most important thing we (and especially Japanese people) should learn from the tragedy? To me this questions beg the answers.

From John 9:

1 As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” 3 “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him.

There is no reward or punishment when natural disasters or diseases happen in this world. But for whatever that happens, know that you should always display the works of God. Therefore, for this disaster, go do the works of God. That's all you need to know. Looking for reasons is a petty discussion as Christ refuted his disciples.

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Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Exactly! I know earthquakes seem like a "big thing" and they are on a scale of destruction, but there is no more reason to think there is any "reason" behind it anymore than there is any "reason" for lightening striking a tree in the forest (even when no human is there to see it). Something like an earthquake just happens to affect millions of people and so we tend to ascribe cosmic significance to them which we never would say the tree falling in the forest; unless of course we were actually there to see it fall or be struck by lightening in which case we'd automatically assume it was "mean for us" in some way.

That's right. But why did those plates move at a specific time and place?

And most importantly as orthodox christians this tragedy should teach us something, shouldn't it? For one we need to learn to have compassion for those involved and to pray for them (alive or dead). But is this most important thing we (and especially Japanese people) should learn from the tragedy? To me this questions beg the answers.

What could be more important to the answer of "why?" The thing is unlike people 200 years ago we DO know why!

If you want to learn about earthquakes go become a geologist! If you want to learn "why it rains" go become a meteorologist. If you want to know "why the sun comes up every morning" go become an astronomer. This is not the year 1355, when such things were a mystery. (despite the fact that some talk show hosts don't know why the tides go in and out) This is 2011 and we KNOW why these things happen. If you or I don't know it is merely out of our own personal ignorance just as it was 4000 years ago when people thought earthquakes were caused because of the Titans stomping around in Tartarus.

If we are to learn anything at all it is probably to recognize our own ignorance and to encourage us to study how the world works even more than we did before. The seeking of "why" is how we know that tiny invisible animals caused the the black death and not God's wrath. It how we know tiny invisible creatures cause people to catch colds etc. If there is something to learn from this I'd say it is for us to see how quickly we as human beings want to divide up humanity into the "saved and the damned" or how egocentric we really are to think everything that happens is God's way of telling us "something". It's a natural part of our thought process and our senses; but then so is thinking the earth is flat.

Such a tsunami would inflict enormous damage on Alaska and the whole American seaboard.

"At the far end of Russia, there will be an enormous earthquake. The waters will break out of the ocean, flooding the continent, and many nations will perish. Many diseases beyond understanding will appear…. The face of the earth will change…. The people will comprehend their guilt; they will come to understand how far they have departed from God and from His teachings, and then they will begin to be reborn spiritually, gradually being cleansed physically, as well. People will become vegetarians. By that time, many animals will have vanished. The horse and the dog will only be seen in pictures; and later – the cow, the goat, and the sheep will disappear forever from our planet…. People will no longer be interested in politics, and the spiritual principle of each nation will predominate…"

Martyr-Eldress Dunyushka of Ussuruisk, Siberia (+1918)

Source: Dr Vladimir Moss on Orthodox-Tradition

Isn't that kind of like "predicting" the following:

In the far North of Alaska there will 6 months of darkness and bitter cold. Animals and people will die. Even in Fairbanks the ice carnival will be canceled due to the bitter cold. - Me, 5 minutes ago

I mean, it's not much of a prediction when even people 100 years ago could figure out that a certain part of the planet had certain types of natural phenomenon that would come to pass eventually, just given enough time. People 100 years ago weren't stupid. They didn't know about plate tectonics but they knew where big earthquakes happened and where they didn't. It's like all the "evangelical prophets" saying "in LA there will be a massive earthquake"...yeah, Duh! Of course there will. Just as sure as I predict "in Northern Minnesota the temperature will hit 20 below zero"....of course since that happens EVERY winter is it really a prediction?

Even the prediction of people no longer being interested in politics and becoming vegetarians (both of which I'm partial too so I'm not arguing against them) but, if some day this did happen, does that make the Eldress a prophet? Does it make Gene Roddenberry a prophet since he "predicted" essentially the same thing in Star Trek? (and I'm sure quite independently of Russian prophets)

Not saying I wouldn't like parts of the prophecy to be true, however considering only hours after the earthquake politicians and talking heads in America were debating whether or not America could "afford" to help Japan financially, I don't think this is fulfillment of said prophecy.

Such a tsunami would inflict enormous damage on Alaska and the whole American seaboard.

"At the far end of Russia, there will be an enormous earthquake. The waters will break out of the ocean, flooding the continent, and many nations will perish. Many diseases beyond understanding will appear…. The face of the earth will change…. The people will comprehend their guilt; they will come to understand how far they have departed from God and from His teachings, and then they will begin to be reborn spiritually, gradually being cleansed physically, as well. People will become vegetarians. By that time, many animals will have vanished. The horse and the dog will only be seen in pictures; and later – the cow, the goat, and the sheep will disappear forever from our planet…. People will no longer be interested in politics, and the spiritual principle of each nation will predominate…"

Martyr-Eldress Dunyushka of Ussuruisk, Siberia (+1918)

Source: Dr Vladimir Moss on Orthodox-Tradition

Isn't that kind of like "predicting" the following:

In the far North of Alaska there will 6 months of darkness and bitter cold. Animals and people will die. Even in Fairbanks the ice carnival will be canceled due to the bitter cold. - Me, 5 minutes ago

I mean, it's not much of a prediction when even people 100 years ago could figure out that a certain part of the planet had certain types of natural phenomenon that would come to pass eventually, just given enough time. People 100 years ago weren't stupid. They didn't know about plate tectonics but they knew where big earthquakes happened and where they didn't. It's like all the "evangelical prophets" saying "in LA there will be a massive earthquake"...yeah, Duh! Of course there will. Just as sure as I predict "in Northern Minnesota the temperature will hit 20 below zero"....of course since that happens EVERY winter is it really a prediction?

Even the prediction of people no longer being interested in politics and becoming vegetarians (both of which I'm partial too so I'm not arguing against them) but, if some day this did happen, does that make the Eldress a prophet? Does it make Gene Roddenberry a prophet since he "predicted" essentially the same thing in Star Trek? (and I'm sure quite independently of Russian prophets)

Not saying I wouldn't like parts of the prophecy to be true, however considering only hours after the earthquake politicians and talking heads in America were debating whether or not America could "afford" to help Japan financially, I don't think this is fulfillment of said prophecy.

In the prophecy the part about the dog reminds me of "Planet of the Apes", when dogs and cats died and people made apes their new pets.

I strongly object NP. We know HOW it happens but we do not know the WHY.

Our planet is alive, that is why.

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As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS

I think what the Lord says in Matthew 24 re natural disasters is telling us that these are ongoing tragedies humanity will experience until the second coming & to deal with by faith & proper works (nothing out of the ordinary). I think his references to specific tragedies in Luke 13 also reiterate this point & his emphasis is that the victims are no better or worse than those who continue living but that repentance is our most important concern. His emphasis on avoiding false prophets should dispell any fantastic notions we may conjure re these unfortnate events ( I would think).