Can The Good Guys Ever Win in the War of the Sexes?

In a recent Facebook thread, a woman posted a 'Missed Connection' from Craigslist where a man wrote that he had admired a woman in a recent event where they were in a group hot tub together. She had been with her friends, and the rule of the event was no talking in the hot tubs, so rather than approach her, he later posted a Missed Connection, letting her know he admired her hair and her tattoos and would like to get to know her better, but hadn't wanted to interrupt her with her friends.

The woman who re-posted this to Facebook, as well as the first few (female) commenters, all decried the man for being 'creepy', for looking at the woman sexually in any way, for “only” liking her for her tattoos and hair (as if we don't get tattoos and do our hair for the express purpose of being seen as interesting or sexy), for posting the Missed Connection, and for how he wrote his post.

After a few comments, a man, and after him, a couple others, began a conversation about how men are caught between a rock and a hard place when it comes to approaching women they find attractive. To paraphrase one man: “Women complain when men DON'T express interest and then complain when they do.” Another said “It's creepy if the woman isn't attracted to the man, but not if she is.” I really appreciated these men for steering the conversation from a standard “eww, men suck” discussion to something more nuanced and meaningful.

To me, this thread reflected the elephant in the room between men and women: that women say they want men to be forthright, romantic, genuine, and honest, yet when a man she isn't necessarily attracted to approaches a woman (or, in the case of the Missed Connection poster, doesn't approach her out of respect, and then expresses interest later, anonymously, in a public forum) she often complains bitterly that he's a creepy pervert.

There are real creepy perverts out there, no doubt. I'm talking about the genuinely good man who finds a woman attractive and wants to talk to her, and so approaches to express his interest, even if just coming near her an acceptable distance and making eye contact, whether at a party, cafe, on the street, in a bookstore, or even online. Several men I've spoken to about this have admitted that, because of this disconnect between what women say they want and how many women respond when they get what they say they want (men to be forthcoming about their inner experiences), they've trained themselves not to approach or show any interest to a woman they they find attractive. Without exception, these men are smart, creative, ethical, funny, interesting men. And they choose to be single rather than talk to an attractive woman, because they don't want to be seen as creepy or to make the woman uncomfortable. And then the single women I know wonder where all the good men are. This seems like a paradox to me.

To me, creepy happens when a man (and this also happens with women approaching men) expresses interest, the woman clearly expresses her lack of interest, and he keeps hanging around or pushing the issue. Or, a man just 'hangs around' her without speaking about his interest. It's not the interest itself that's creepy, it's the refusal to take no for an answer and/or not being willing to express his wishes to her.

To my mind, the man who confidently approaches a woman, any woman, without a thought or worry to how he might come off or to whether or not he might be seen as creepy are the men who don't really respect women at all, and just see women as a conquest to be had. In the Pickup Artist (PUA) community, men are encouraged to approach women for the express goal of being rejected, figuring this will make men less sensitive to rejection. PUA trainers repeatedly tell their students that “it's a numbers game”. In other words, approach as many women as you can. Most will reject you, but some will have sex with you.

Good men – men who genuinely want to relate to a woman in more ways than only sexually – are the men who will choose not to approach a woman, whether out of shyness or worry that he'll come across as creepy. Those are the men who respect womens' personhood and don't see them as a mere collection of female body parts. Those are the men women should encourage to approach them. Those are the men that women are looking for when they complain that there are no good men. Yet those are the men that see the paradox of dating – that women say they want confident men, but will complain about you if you approach her as a decent man (as opposed to an overconfident blowhard) and will be turned off – and often choose not to even bother. This is also, in my opinion, the origin of the assumption that women only date jerks. The jerks are the ones who have no compunction against approaching a woman, but are more likely to see women as merely sexual conquests, while the so-called “nice guys” who respect women as people are the very ones who may have some hesitation or shyness, and as such get written of as either creepy or passive.

The Missed Connections poster, by virtue of the fact that he did not approach this woman out of respect for her and for the rules of the event, seem to me to be squarely in the “non creepy” camp. He respected this woman enough not to want to make her feel uncomfortable. And for that he gets called creepy.

I think this is one of the deep-seated problems with male-female relations in general and dating specifically. Men are supposed to somehow know what women want and need, and women don't seem to feel the need, generally speaking, to be more verbal and clear about those wants and needs. In dating, men are somehow supposed to intuit how open – or not - a woman is to his approach, and then the exact right approach to take. If he makes one wrong move, he's missed his chance and the woman will have another story for her female friends about how “this one creepy guy looked at me when I was naked in a hot tub!” Women think nothing of dressing in sexy outfits and then complain when men look at them in a sexual manner (by the way, I heartily approve of sexy outfits on women, and I absolutely disagree with anyone who says that how a woman dresses can be blamed for men physically or verbally assaulting her or assuming they have any right to touch her without her consent).

I don't blame the good, single men I know for being confused and disheartened by this state of affairs, and for deciding not to even bother. I might suggest that women give men the benefit of the doubt, as well as consider being more clear in their communications with men who show an interest, and not to assume he's creepy because he thinks you're attractive. I tend to be polite to men who approach me in a polite way. If a guy asks if he can take me out and I'm not interested, I just say “No, thanks.” In every instance, the man has politely said “OK” and left me alone. I know that this isn't always the way it happens, but I'd rather err on the side of politeness (of course taking into consideration the context of the meeting. If it's a dark alleyway and I'm alone, I'm going to get myself to a public, well-lit place when approached by a strange man, but in a bar or coffee shop or party, why not be polite?) than on the side of assuming every strange man is a creep.

I'm fond of a particular quote that's been attributed to George Carlin: “Men are from Earth. Women are from Earth. Get over it.” In normal male-female relations, we are not at war. We all want the same things: to be loved and to be seen and accepted for who we are. The “War of the Sexes” is a myth. Only when we start treating each other as teammates and not as enemies will women be safe from the genuine creeps, and will men feel safe enough with women to be vulnerable the way women say they want men to be.

If a man finds a woman enticing then he might go over and introduce himself and start a conversation. Considering that most modern women have careers, hobbies, friends and interests there should be plenty of ways to find commonality and extend a discussion.

What men should never ever do is repeatedly tell a woman that he finds her beautiful, attractive or sexy. Bringing up somebody's good looks once is find, but if that is the only topic that a man wants to talk about then the conversation and interest might be short-lived by the woman and he will be quickly deemed as creepy. She'll feel that whatever she has to say is getting ignored while her conversation partner repeatedly tells her that she's beautiful. That means he isn't listening and sees her only as an object.

If hot-tub man was interested in naked hot-tub woman, he might have inquired about her tattoos and wanted to know where she got them done. Sure, he found her beautiful but announcing it to the world via an Internet site might have been perceived as creepy.

I agree with those standards for approaches. You shouldn't be sexually pushy, and your discussion needs depth, rather than a lot of "you're hot" comments. Especially if he isn't even responding to the words coming out of her mouth! I just find that disrespectful in general.

But there are several problems:

-You can't approach someone you don't know, and say "You have a great personality". The problem with being the one expected to approach is that looks are really the only thing you can go on.

(This also says a lot about women feeling pressured into looking perfect. You don't have to be look perfect if you're the one making the move. Men's standards are actually really wide.)

-But similarly, if you're already friends, the only way to make it MORE than friends is to show sexual interest. "You're really smart" doesn't show sexual interest, even though smart is really sexy. "You're really beautiful" does show sexual interest.

(I prefer to use "You're a really beautiful person" to show more than skin-depth)

-There is a big problem with interpretation. A *non-flirty girl showing interest* is less flirty than a *flirty girl who is just a friend*. So unless the GIRL spells out her interest in nice bold print, the guy risks an unwanted advance towards the flirty girl, or missing out on a relationship with the non-flirty girl.

If you read my post below, I had personal experience with the former. And these days, that can land you in jail.

-"Creep" is thrown around too much. A guy making a move nervously is called a "creep". Once you start talking about that "creep", it's hard to tell if you mean "he's awkward" or "he's a pedonecrophiliac." Each girl you say it to will interpret it in her own way.

So overall, something that shouldn't be "that complicated" suddenly becomes a tightrope walk over a flaming bed of nails. As a result, more and more guys are staying out of it. And thus, more and more girls are thinking they're ugly, because they're expecting guys to make the move.

Even though if she were to make the move, she could practically grab the guy's crotch and he won't be offended.

When I lived in Colorado, the men were overtly sexual, but could be real jerks about it. That's where I got yelled at for approaching. When I moved to the Seattle area, the men were all far more polite, but also largely uninterested in sex, and too politically correct to say what they mean.

This means that on a blind date, for example, they meet in public, the first thing the woman sees is the man's crushed look of disappointment because she's not a movie star (never mind that he isn't, either), then he starts checking his watch to see how fast he can get out of this date, and then inexplicably says, "I had a great time! I'll call you!", and bolts for the hills, never to be seen again. That's called "lying". After four of those in a row, I dropped the dating agency.

The last man I dated was one of my brother's college buddies, then I just gave the whole thing up. It's been over a decade since I've been on a date, but I have more time for hobbies!

You are 100% right, just like thew original poster of this article. However, I will not argue or get into the debate. Nowadays, I just keep it simple; I've experimented with being both a nice guy and being more of a bad boy. I figured out which personality and lifestyle type works and gets the most successful results when it comes to attracting women and I've decided to

KEEP DOING WHAT HAS BEEN PROVEN TO WORK AND GET RESULTS.

Best thing I learned is listen to what people (women) complain about in all their past relationships and DO THOSE EXACT SAME THINGS because THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THEY'RE ATTRACTED TO.

There's no point in me arguing / debating on the whole creepy nice guy / jerkish bad boy thing because no one will ever convince me that my REAL LIFE EXPERIENCES are incorrect, regardless of how much they try to convince me that what they wish to believe is correct. People can talk and say they want this or they want that or that stereotypes are sexist or unfair, etc. All I know is (and I repeat) I've figured out what works when it comes to attracting females and I stopped listening to what people claim to want and decided to keep doing what actually works...

And it's funny how everybody claims that they are "different" and shouldn't be "placed / categorized in a 'box'" yet so far everyone seems to be more alike than different; Both the good and bad girls tend to typically want and reject the same things.....

Anyway.............. Have a nice day Suckas!!! lol

PS: Advice to you guys out there:
If something you've been doing hasn't been working, I'd recommend you stop doing what hasn't been working and start doing things that actually work. Sitting here debating and secretly hoping that one day things will change will not change anything. You know that nice guys finish last, then learn how to stop being nice and become the type of guy who gets what he wants. I'm still learning how to get things right, but the bottom line is I'VE DECIDED TO WORK ON CHANGING rather than sitting back and complaining about how life isn't fair. You have the freedom to change, and this is coming from someone on the Autism Spectrum. And no, no one has labeled me a creep for over a year now...

I also see this as a serious issue, and it happens to both genders. If anyone approaches you in a polite way, take it as the compliment it's meant to be, and handle it respectfully regardless of your reply. If you're not interested, be tactful and discreet in your rejection. There is no need to publicly scream obscenities at someone because they dared to approach you. I'm female, and yes, that has happened before when I approached a guy. I've also met men through a dating service, and the first thing I see on approach is the crushed look of disappointment on his face when he sees I'm not a movie star...then he starts checking his watch like he expects me to believe he has an appointment.

Both genders should be honest and polite, and quit playing childish games.

Friend of mine says she defines 'creepiness' as a guy with ulterior motives who won't admit what he's really angling for. I assume she meant sex, though, and who's walking up and asking for sex right away?

It sounds like she wants a man who is sexually interested, but not interested in sex.

It sometimes seems like girls have completely different standards for hot, boyfriend material, and friend material, and it gets finicky, since it's subtle personality traits that separate each.

I suppose guys are the same. But generally, my experience is that guys see a girlfriend as friendship + sex. And guys date a girl if she seems like she'd make a good friend, and she's physically attractive. There usually isn't different personality types for different types of attraction.

There's "emotional = friendship" and there's "physical = sexual". If they have emotional, but no physical, you're a friend. If they have physical, but no emotional, you usually avoid, unless you're the one-night-stand type of guy. If you have both, then they compound upon each other.

But for girls, it seems like if you're dominant, you're sexy. If you're respectful, you're friendship material. If you're chivalrous, you're MAYBE boyfriend material. If you're interested in the same things, you're best friends completely asexually.

And then on top of that, they don't mix. If a guy is respectful, it makes him seem less dominant, so he's suddenly unsexy. If they're into the same things, he's unmasculine, which is unsexy. If you're dominant and masculine, you probably aren't as respectful, so you're the jerkbag boyfriend, but at least you're a boyfriend.

I tell you what, this makes me glad I'm a guy. Easier to pinpoint what I want.

I think it's much more complicated than just that 'females are spoiled'. I mean, since we make less than men for doing the same work, you can hardly call us spoiled. I think women and men both get incredibly mixed messages from the media about what we're supposed to want from each other, and that we're not taught how to think critically or how to be self-aware, so we externalize everything. It's always someone else's fault for why we don't get what we want or why we do get what we don't want. Teaching kids basic psychological principles, critical thinking skills, and tools for becoming self aware would go far to help men and women become more comfortable with one another and for society in general to get away from the blame game.

Nice patronisation. The truth is, I'm afraid, a number of men feel the same. (I can speak from several conversations I've been party to over recent years). The disillusionment, I'm sorry to say, makes them indifferent if they 'have no interest from women' as you say.

To uphold a slight piece of evidence of today's world which may lead to resentment: My work place actively excludes men from staff development programs under the gender auspice. The subject and business contacts introduced in these sessions, you might think, would be gender specific. Rather, they are focussed upon 'how to start a business' - 'how to deal with stress'. Men aren't expected to have stress or be encouraged to start a business? How would you feel if you were excluded from these sessions? So stow your noise if we get rationally enraged some times.

[..] It's always someone else's fault for why we don't get what we want or why we do get what we don't want. Teaching kids basic psychological principles, critical thinking skills, and tools for becoming self aware would go far to help men and women become more comfortable with one another and for society in general to get away from the blame game.

Well said, thank you for this precious comment! I probably can't express my own perspective on this so elegantly, but I'm gonna try.

In dating and even pre-dating, as soon as I get mixed-messages, where some part of the message says something like "I'm not getting what I want here" or even just "With my last date I didn't get what I want, because ... happened" - which is both an example for such an externalization of an inner lack, that you're referring to, if I'm understanding correctly - I'm starting to think about how to get out of the date most quickly.

The most mysterious thing ever is humor and whenever I think of persons without any humor, I find them to be the most funny ones - funny probably in a bad way.

Of course, lures in the animal domain are straightforward, and for me they're working best in letting casual party talks flourish. At least those are the best contribution I can think of making to any conversation, which is giving my perspective briefly. If nobody has a clue about what you just said and it's being ignored, that's one thing - you can be sure, however, if you're mentioning some detail you perceived in something that just happened, that involves no deception or strategy whatsoever, and if some response is coming on how the other party perceived the same event taking place, that there is at least some immediate shared perspective to continue from.

What I'm about is not that we should stop externalizing altogether - even if I knew how that would work, instead we could just try to think about what are we going to externalize. No? That's probably what you're referring to by psychological principles and thinking skills.

What is being described here, are mostly tragic disasters happening in human communication, that, of course never lead anywhere. May it be a date or just a bartalk or party talk. How should I ever truly fall in love with a person, that I cannot have a casual bartalk with?

I also don't know why that happens so often, while I'm not surprised it must happen in this bad way, when the only intention is to find someone to pull over some barrel most efficiently.

All these dating advisors, especially the most common ones like The Game, The Rules, PUA stuff, .. are all promising success by trying to skip the most interesting part in the whole thing. That's something I will never understand.

As you already said, becoming self aware and aware of the situation you're in is the first step and that, most probably, involves getting rid of that idea of pulling someone over some barrel first and foremost.

It may seem that because a woman isn't attracted to a man is why she deems him "creepy" is the only reason why is not correct. Sure that is part of it, but also there are many perverts in the world today and if a strange man came up (or posted on a public online website) to you and started complimenting on your beauty wouldn't you be a little creeped out? Who knows what was running through his mind when he was looking at you? Sure, the women who dress sexy shouldn't complain when men compliment (not harass) on her looks because, well, why else would you dress like that? However, those who stay in the shadows and let their roots grow by the walls can be a little more than put-off when a man whom she has never met is complimenting her. I guess what I'm trying to say is, what is his angle? Women are more defensive now it seems, because in this world it is hard to be able to trust total strangers. Maybe if the Craigslist guy had talked about something other than her beauty, or tried to find some other way to talk to her, maybe he wouldn't be quite so creepy.

If somebody really wanted to help out the nice guys they'd write a book about how men can approach women and date constructively so they can have committed positive relationships. But nobody does that.

Instead, creepy people lead Pick-up Artist classes to teach eager men to convince women to have sex with them. Articles in Men's Magazines describing in detail about how to bed women and toss them aside do not describe ways men can behave to have good relationships. And lots of porn on the Internet shows men that a good man is one that has lots of sex with lots of different women.

No wonder men have no clue how to approach women. As long as men keep blaming women for either ignoring them or not agreeing to have sex with them quickly, then they will have fewer and fewer positive relationships.

I remember in Jr. High and HS. when I was having trouble with women, I looked up stuff that ended up being PUA. My motive was basically that if these creeps could get women to have sex with them, then I could certainly be able to get a simple relationship. I just wanted to be desired.

But there's also an entire half of the story being missed. Why aren't we teaching women to approach men? Men don't have their guards up as much, and it's harder to offend them. So basically, women are in a much better position for showing interest.

Yet we expect men to give women the initial attention. So while a girl can keep to herself and end up in a relationship, a guy HAS to have some sort of approach to get any kind of relationship.

Men are usually approached so little that it's hard to tell what's friendly and what's interest.

The hot ones never have to, because they're getting enough attention already. The women who approach are going to be those who are interested, but not so hot that they're already swamped in offers. This means that the women who are willing to approach are less desirable, and the men don't like being approached by them any better than the hot chicks like being approached by less desirable men.

I guess I should hold my tongue on that subject, because I HAVE been approached by women. Now that I recall, I've been approached more than I HAVE approached. Which actually makes me a hypocrite in a way. I mean, I AM outnumbered 2.5:1 by women at my school.

(Okay, I haven't been "asked out" by a girl. Usually they just say they're interested, and wait for me to ask them out. I still call that an approach.)

I guess I just hear a lot of women who, when the discussion pops up, say "It should be the man's job to approach." "It should be the man's job to pay." "It should be the man's job to...... etc."

Curious, what is your take on who introduces sex into the relationship, or how? You seem to have a good perspective.

To me, I think women should do so, and shouldn't expect a man to "just go for it".

If she comes up and introduces herself, asks if you want to go for coffee, etc, that is "approach", even if she didn't actually ask you out. Both genders do this. Most people don't just walk up to a complete stranger and say, "will you go out with me?", they make a more gradual approach to see if there is ANY interest before they go all out.

Your comment about "it should be the man's job", ugh. I call that entitlement syndrome. It's not the man's job to pay for everything, and it's not the woman's job to clean the bathroom. That's just laziness and being inconsiderate. Valentines day is often horribly misconstrued because it's meant to be reciprocal, but many women think the man is supposed to please them.

With regard to introducing sex, both parties have to show interest or nothing is going to happen. Given the way laws are written to favor the woman, she should probably go first, but she's unlikely to say, "hey, I know, let's have sex!". It's probably going to be more like unspoken physical contact....if she makes excuses to touch you, kiss you, that is a desire for physical contact. The man can then reciprocate and do the same to make sure it's mutual. It's mostly gradual and unspoken at first, but some people seem to think it's an all or nothing thing, like making a dentist appointment. If initial attempts at physical contact go well, then a general conversation about sex will sort it all out. Better to bring up the topic in general before assuming anything.

It's possible that the real problem is people thinking sex is like a microwave meal; instant gratification with no effort in three minutes or less. Nope, takes time, effort, and investment from both parties unless you were just seeking a drunken fling.

I love the way you put this: "It's possible that the real problem is people thinking sex is like a microwave meal; instant gratification with no effort in three minutes or less."

That's so true! There's some kind of assumption of instant gratification that's the exact opposite of true intimacy.

I've definitely had men show me interest and think there was a sexual spark when there wasn't (for me,anyway), and it's really, really uncomfortable to be the one who has to say "Actually, I don't feel that way about you" I know I've made the mistake of hoping my body language was sufficient to convey this, and finding out it wasn't, and ending up with awkwardness. I'm not surprised that women often don't say this.

In which people pretend they are "trying not to hurt someone's feelings", when in reality they're trying to avoid their own discomfort. It's awkward to have to be direct with someone and tell them what they don't want to hear, and people go through all kinds of contortions to avoid that discomfort. It's the same thing when men say "I had a great time, I'll call you!" when they clearly did not have a great time. Just say whatever the other person wants to hear in order to end the uncomfortable moment. This is lying, but the speaker will deny it and justify it.

In which people pretend they are "trying not to hurt someone's feelings", when in reality they're trying to avoid their own discomfort. It's awkward to have to be direct with someone and tell them what they don't want to hear, and people go through all kinds of contortions to avoid that discomfort. It's the same thing when men say "I had a great time, I'll call you!" when they clearly did not have a great time. Just say whatever the other person wants to hear in order to end the uncomfortable moment. This is lying, but the speaker will deny it and justify it.

Meeting someone new and evaluating them as a potential mate isn't a process to be taken lightly. A guy might be physically attracted to the woman, and that biases his objective view of her as a potential mate. Or maybe he really finds her really fascinating interesting, but realizes that one particular aspect of her life (her religion, her politics, potential inexperience, or maybe she disclosed that she just got out of a bad relationship?) concerns him after getting home to reflect. Sometimes the guy is lying, and based on personal experience, sometimes it's simply a matter of changing one's mind.

If they've just met and it's a first date, that doesn't apply. He has no intention of ever calling her, doesn't want to see her again, has already decided that, and he smiles that phony smile and lies and says, "I had a great time!! I'll call you!!". The weird part is that they all seem to have learned the exact same line out of a book somewhere. They use the same words, same tone of voice, etc. Creepy.

I mentioned this on an alleged "men's board", and the men unanimously agreed that's the best way to handle some chick you never want to see again. That way she can't cry and make a scene and make him feel bad; she'll just go away and sit by the phone, waiting on his call that never comes, and he gets to skate free. I'd call it gutless cowardice.

You hit the nail on the head as to why a man would avoid being up front with her. He'd rather her not cry and make a scene, then end up feeling bad about it. Most rational human beings wouldn't anyway, but there's no point in taking unnecessary risks for a stranger you owe nothing to? If he somehow manages to make snap decision during the date, there's unlikely to be any scenario in which disclosing this benefits him. That doesn't make him a gutless coward. That makes him wise because he's actively avoiding any potential conflict. No one should go inviting trouble upon themselves.

if you Google 'How not to be creepy' there are a lot of articles on that, and not all aimed at men, surprisingly. I find it sort of offensive to think of a book helping men "not be creepy" because creepy, it seems to me, is in the eyes of the beholder. I think both people have a responsibility in a situation where someone approaches someone else with romantic interest. The approacher has the responsibility to be respectful and read the signs of interest or lack thereof, and the approachee has the responsibility to not automatically assume the approacher is in the wrong, and to be as honest, polite and respectful as is correct in the situation. If the approacher is clearly not respectful, than the approachee has every right to be disrespectful in return if that's what it takes to make that person understand the lack of interest.

There are several different forms of material out there dedicated strictly to teaching nice guys how to become the bad boy that women want and attract women. You just have to be willing to change and learn to do what actually works to attract women. Complaining about how jerks always win and nice guys always lose will not get anyone anywhere. If you're going to complain, at least consider alkso working on changing while you're complaining, lol. Me, I've decided to keep it as simple as possible. I've simply decided to

STOP DOING WHAT HASN'T BEEN WORKING AND START DOING WHAT ACTUALLY WORKS.

And this is coming from someone on the Autism Spectrum. Even despite my autistic traits, I've managed to shed a lot of my overly emotional and overly intellectual nice guy traits and become more of the jerkish, adventurous type. I'm not one to say that "just because I can do it then everyone else in the world should be able to do it, too," but at least TRY. It took me years, but I've finally figured out how to permanently change and become the type of guy who naturally attracts women. I'm not perfect, but I'm doing waaay better than I used to when I was the nice shy guy with social anxiety who fantasized that I could magically win a woman's heart by being that sweet nice guy who just happens to meet that sweet nice girl and then we fall in love and live a romantic fantasy.

Hate to say it, but that's not how the normal world works. At least not here in the U.S.

And for you guys out the who are also on the autism spectrum, don't assume the solution to finding success with dating is just to find a woman who is also on the autism spectrum....... or that finding a girl with social anxiety or bipolar disorder, etc. will make things any easier...

By the way, I can understand how difficult it can be for someone on the autism spectrum (like me) or someone with personality disorder or social anxiety disorder, etc. to not be creepy since most people with those things are naturally hard wired to come across as creepy by default. All I am saying is that it is possible to change. Even though I am pretty unique, no one can tell that I am on the autism spectrum or have aspergers or whatever you choose to call it. I don't act like any of the guys on Big Bang Theory. But at one point in my life I did used to.

It drives me nuts because I bag the hotties but they're all idiots/psychos. But hey... It be fucking worse.

I just wish girls weren't such whores and were more like sluts. I imagine a world were all men can get laid, just as easily as women. Once we get there, we can stop obsessing over sex and focus on love and find out soulmates...

It's hard to love these whores when they're auctioning off their pussy to the highest bidder. It's like wait, I'm not good enough? Bitch, you're a whore.

1. Men are SEXUALLY DEPRAVED. You don't get rejected like we do. BITCH.

2. Because men are sexually depraved, desire manifests and SEX becomes the #1 focal point. You wouldn't like it very much if someone took all of your shoes away (or whatever the fuck it is that you really enjoy).

3. Women capitalize on this and you whore yourselves out to the highest bidder, making men sing and dance, wine and dine you and shower you with gifts.

4. WE DON'T LIKE THAT.

Sex is more natural than what you ate for lunch tonight, but YOU... WOMEN... are the goddamn gatekeepers. And you have the audacity to call us assholes for wanting sex... If all men were getting laid, I wonder if there would be any war...

Good guys, in our modern context, are simply less dominant men who don't have the experience or wisdom to see through female psychology and behavior. They're suckers, plain and simple, who are usually forced to pay full price (marriage) for the sexual and reproductive abilities of women who very likely spent their best years giving it away for free.

No, good guys won't win. Good guys only lose, because good guys have been selected OUT of the equation by the most promiscuous generation of women in the history of Western civilization. Young women don't want good guys. They want bad asses that are going to put them in their place and treat them like meatbags, because that is what makes them tingle on the inside.

Women only give good guys a shot once they're approaching or past their prime, and only then because good guys generally have careers and money that women desire access to. Modern women waste their youth having promiscuous "no shame involved" sex with a small percentage of men, racking up STD's and out-of-wedlock children along the way, and then return to the good guys to form parasitic relationships and marriages.

You must be electrical in nature, and thus live entirely on the worst parts of the internet. Or perhaps you're looking in bars for a supermodel stripper pornstar.

As for human women, they aren't nearly this drastic. And as for good guys, they are not spineless bowls of pudding.

You sound afraid of commitment, afraid of apologies, afraid of settling down, and frankly, afraid of women in general.

What good guys generally do is respect women. They listen to their side of the perspective, and take it into account. Unfortunately, good guys hear basically only BAD things about male sexuality: That it's slimy, gross, disrespectful, manipulative, and immoral.

And thus, the assumption is that in order to respect women, you have to act almost entirely asexual. But if you aren't expressing your sexual nature, you might as well be their brother or their friend, not their boyfriend or lover.

So good guys, then, are taken off the radar because we're basically taught that interest as more than friends is insulting to women, and are usually told so by women themselves.

And unlike PUA, good guys CARE about respecting women. It just seems like women need to be more clear, concise, and verbal about what respectful sexual interest is to them.

Good guys, in our modern context, are simply less dominant men who don't have the experience or wisdom to see through female psychology and behavior. They're suckers, plain and simple, who are usually forced to pay full price (marriage) for the sexual and reproductive abilities of women who very likely spent their best years giving it away for free.

No, good guys won't win. Good guys only lose, because good guys have been selected OUT of the equation by the most promiscuous generation of women in the history of Western civilization. Young women don't want good guys. They want bad asses that are going to put them in their place and treat them like meatbags, because that is what makes them tingle on the inside.

Women only give good guys a shot once they're approaching or past their prime, and only then because good guys generally have careers and money that women desire access to. Modern women waste their youth having promiscuous "no shame involved" sex with a small percentage of men, racking up STD's and out-of-wedlock children along the way, and then return to the good guys to form parasitic relationships and marriages.

I want to say that you're wrong, that you don't know what you're talking about, that you're generalizing, etc. But the truth is that, anecdotally, that's precisely what I see every day.

There are so many great guys out there! I have lots of great single guy friends who would make wonderful catches. In the space between cats and cheaters, there is a whole universe of wonderful men who want to treat a woman right.

Ms. Melissa - Saying GOOD things about men? You know, of course, that this is NOT allowed here! Those 'wonderful' men, whom
you described, are not even "in the game". There are insults and people calling them "whiny" at every turn.These are not men who would approach women, not knowing whether the women were actually interested in them or not.
You probably help out a lot by being a female friend, someone
who can provide the female point of view without the insults.

Ms. Melissa - Saying GOOD things about men? You know, of course, that this is NOT allowed here! Those 'wonderful' men, whom
you described, are not even "in the game". There are insults and people calling them "whiny" at every turn.These are not men who would approach women, not knowing whether the women were actually interested in them or not.
You probably help out a lot by being a female friend, someone
who can provide the female point of view without the insults.

So this author comes on as "I totally get the situation, and it's unfair on the menz". Then we get this:

#1 - To me, creepy happens when a man (and this also happens with women approaching men) expresses interest, the woman clearly expresses her lack of interest, and he keeps hanging around or pushing the issue.
#2 - Or, a man just 'hangs around' her without speaking about his interest. It's not the interest itself that's creepy, it's the refusal to take no for an answer and/or not being willing to express his wishes to her.
#3 - To my mind, the man who confidently approaches a woman, any woman, without a thought or worry to how he might come off or to whether or not he might be seen as creepy are the men who don't really respect women at all, and just see women as a conquest to be had.

So accepting #1 as legit, we find from #2 and #3 that if a man is attracted to a woman he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. If she is not attracted to a man who approaches her, she'll label him as a PUA and therefore a creep.

This author is being dishonest with herself. It *is* the interest - interest from a man she does not want - that is in and of itself creepy. Threatening. One of the main reason a woman wants a b/f or husband is to shoo these "creeps" away, so that she can signal and have sex with the men she actually finds attractive.

The problem is codified in sexual harassment laws, which define harassment as UNWANTED sexual advances. The sexual advances aren't a problem. The problem is that the advances are unwanted.

See how this doesn't make sense? How can a person know whether sexual advances are wanted beforehand? It seems mighty unfair to define harassment in terms of whether the recipient likes the behavior, instead of in terms of the behavior itself.

I've actually dealt with this issue on a personal level. A former friend of mine used to behave rather flirty with me, and I figured it meant she was interested. Once I finally got the balls to straight up flirt, she said it was a little awkward and she wasn't interested.

Later on, I faced reports from her friends saying that I was a sexual predator and was giving them "special attention". And after those "women's protection on campus" acts were passed, it was nice to know that I could have been jailed and expelled for telling that girl she had a cute smile.

I said this once:

"When a girl becomes cautious of her sexuality to avoid being called a slut, we say her sexuality is repressed by the system and she is a victim of social oppression.

When a guy becomes cautious of his sexuality to avoid offending others or becoming a creeper, we say he's just a pathetic wimp and needs to man up."

Honestly, I wouldn't have this issue if it weren't for the word "creeper" thrown around like a toy. It's at least as bad as slut, yet men are STILL expected to be the ones to risk that.

If I knew that I could approach a girl and she wouldn't be offended because I find her attractive, I feel like I would be a lot more relaxed about all this.

when the man is reserved because he's not sure how his advance will be perceived, the woman might decide to encourage him, and yet he is so guarded that he can't or won't see it.

I was attracted to a man that I had known a couple of years, and liked very much, but he never showed any sign of interest. I had the opportunity to share a hot tub with him, and ended up actually rolling around in his lap....with no response. He later complained that no woman had ever flirted with him! I pointed out that when I was rolling around in his lap in the hot tub, that was FLIRTING. He didn't get it until I spelled it out.

"Oh! I thought you were just being friendly."

Guys definitely get the short end of the stick on this issue. He's expected to make the advance, while she gets to decide if it's "unwanted" or not.

The girlfriend I ended up having later complained about this a lot in me. That I was clueless about her advances.

The fact is that I certainly was NOT oblivious to it. I just made no response whatsoever, because after that last experience, it was made pretty clear that I should ignore any advances unless the are spelled out and basically given to me with a list of terms and conditions, on a pink slip of paper with a stamp in the upper right-hand corner.

I no longer really respond to non-verbal clues.

I made it clear that it was a problem beforehand, and that I needed her help to help me heal. Her response was that I should just quit being a wimp. And that "at least I don't have to worry about being called a slut".

So this really has me wondering why we still expect GUYS to be making the moves in the first place, if we're so worried or offended by men's sexual advances.

I think Sweden disposed of this problem a long time ago, now that their women and men approach at about the same rate. Less unwanted attention for women, and a guy doesn't die single if he keeps to himself.

If people of both genders would just grow backbones, and be clear and direct about their interest. If the interest isn't wanted, move on. But that means being honest about that, too. I've seen male coworkers flirting with female coworkers, and the women will complain vehemently to everyone EXCEPT the person making the advance. Then they go to HR and the guy gets in trouble. Why didn't they say no to HIM??? Cowardice. "Oh, I was trying to be nice!". No, that is not "nice", that is gutless. Is he supposed to call the psychic hotline??

When I have been not interested, I just made sure the man knew that in no uncertain terms. NO, thanks, not interested, let's all get back to work. I only had one guy persist after that point, and he was doing that to everyone and got fired.

Incidentally....I also got accused of sexual harassment in the work place. There was a man I liked, and we were flirting back and forth, and another woman that liked him went to management and said I was "ruining the reputation of every woman at the company" by flirting instead of working, and the real issue was jealousy. Management bought her story without verification, and I nearly got fired for behavior that was mutual.

But at the same time, we don't need to just grow a backbone and be honest. We need to grow a backbone and not be offended by everything.

I mean, if I go up and ask a girl "hey, would you be interested in sex?" That is not actually harassment, but boy would it be considered offensive, creepy, uncomfortable, etc.

But there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG with the question. Perhaps it's a odd question. But if you aren't interested, you simply say "no, sorry". If he keeps trying even though you already said "no", THEN and only then does it become harassment.

So instead of being afraid of pushy approaches or not taking "no" for an answer, we have become afraid of sex instead. Suddenly sex is creepy, hush-hush, taboo, especially if it's male sexuality.

I hear this is more of a US, UK, Australia thing, and that the problem is dwindled down in places like Scandinavia and Northern Europe.