This year’s Republican primary season offers us an important opportunity to confront our scruples about the privacy of faith in public life — and to get over them. We have an unusually large number of candidates, including putative front-runners, who belong to churches that are mysterious or suspect to many Americans.

Mitt Romney and Jon Huntsman are Mormons, a faith that many conservative Christians have been taught is a “cult” and that many others think is just weird. (Huntsman says he is not “overly religious.”) Rick Perry and Michele Bachmann are both affiliated with fervid subsets of evangelical Christianity — and Rick Santorum comes out of the most conservative wing of Catholicism — which has raised concerns about their respect for the separation of church and state, not to mention the separation of fact and fiction.

And let’s not skip too quickly over the new shiny thing, Rick Perry. More shocking by far than the right reverend, right-reviled Jeremiah Wright, are Perry’s chosen religious rally-mates.

Does it matter or more realistically, when and how much does it matter, to us — as “we the people” constituting this supposedly secular, democratic republic?

I honestly don’t care if Mitt Romney wears Mormon undergarments beneath his Gap skinny jeans. . . Every faith has its baggage, and every faith holds beliefs that will seem bizarre to outsiders. I grew up believing that a priest could turn a bread wafer into the actual flesh of Christ.

But I do want to know if a candidate places fealty to the Bible, the Book of Mormon (the text, not the Broadway musical) or some other authority higher than the Constitution and laws of this country. It matters to me whether a president respects serious science and verifiable history — in short, belongs to what an official in a previous administration once scornfully described as “the reality-based community.” I do care if religious doctrine becomes an excuse to exclude my fellow citizens from the rights and protections our country promises.

And I care a lot if a candidate is going to be a Trojan horse for a sect that believes it has divine instructions on how we should be governed.

Ah, well, for all his reasonable tone lately, I guess that’s why JEB is smart enough to know this is not his time. Too many of us still do care about such things, and remember Terri Schiavo.

Surely you as as a US senator for the past quarter century staking a claim to the presidency of this country you say you stand so proudly for, are not now calling upon your party’s extremists to fight against the government itself, become an actual “insurgency” against our duly constituted American government and constitution, civil war?

So Sarah Palin says god wants the oil pipeline funded and the war in Iraq. Let’s say you now believe that’s a fine quality in an American president, to lead secular American democracy based on divining and implementing god’s will.

How far-reaching is The Family’s influence? David Kuo, a high-ranking official in the Bush administration who oversaw the White House’s office of faith-based initiatives, wrote in a recent book: “The Fellowship’s reach into governments around the world is almost impossible to overstate or even grasp.”

36 responses

Perry is arguably worse if Bachmann really does buy into that wifely submission meme — Bachmann’s husband as God Behind the White House Curtain would at least be smiling and dancing and distracted by wide-stance dallying back there, most of the time. The lives he has hurt so far have been individuals, not wholesale strafes across the populace. Perry’s history seems more like would be ruthlessly taking over the world with well-bankrolled military might and crushing his enemies foreign and domestic. So when it comes to hot air Bachmann strikes me as more airhead and Perry more like weaponized dirigible.

With a couple of Mormons wanting to be elected president this cycle, this must be something legitimate to question a Mormon about? (If Harry Reid were running, I’d still want to ask him too):

As the hurricane barreled towards the East Coast, Beck said that it would be a valuable lesson for people who have not heeded his warnings. He said he has long told his followers to stock up in case of “global disruption in food.”

Every time a gay couple get’s married, that is god reminding beck, that he is also not in control.

Fancy that.

27082011

Nance Confer(10:56:06) :

How much do crazy people like this think real people can stock up? Money aside (guffaw!) how much space would a real stockpile take? I can fit a couple of week’s worth in the house. But, after that, are we talking crates of food in the living room or are we all supposed to have an underground bunker or what?

Well when talking heads like Beck start telling people to buy over priced survival seed kits, gold bullion, and blessed canned goods, I want you to consider that he might be shilling a sponsor or ten. AND since he is a Mormon, that is a major part of their belief system as well.

But it’s something that all apocalyptic groups have in common.

But to me what is very telling is how easily it distorts the world for those infected with this terrible uncertainty.

If you are convinced that the world is ending, that Armageddon or the race wars, or swine flu, or whatever is going to upend civilization as you know it, then are you going to prioritize preparation for the survival of your family, or will you prioritize the management of our national leadership?

Most people go with the former, and how convenient is that for politicians who are increasingly indebted to big corporations as opposed to working for the people who got them into office?

People who are afraid are very easy to emotionally manipulate. And anyone who is stocking up for the End Times is Very Afraid and Uncertain about the future. They are constantly waiting for that big boom, for that riot, for the sirens. They are always prepared for that, but never prepared for the pedestrian issues of regular everyday life and the governance of that life.

I have news for these people. If you bought your 200 Dollar Emergency seed collection, and you have never had a garden before, you are going to starve. Growing your own food even under ideal conditions is not easy. Especially starting it from seed. So that is money down a hole. Money in Beck’s pocket.

Gold is only as valuable as it’s highest rated price in the moment. Which wildly fluctuates depending on the global and national economy.

Food Stores in a pantry only last for so long, even canned goods. Eventually they age and become dangerous sources of food borne illnesses like Botchulism and worse.

So having a small emergency storage is good. That is wise, what if we had a natural disaster or a black out. What if you couldn’t get your money out of the bank to buy food because ATM networks were hacked?

But what Glenn and his ilk want is for us to spend our entire lives, hating and fearing whomever he targets, while distracting ourselves with preparation for an end that most likely will not come. And even if it does, it’s doubtful his prognostications would be anything other than a lucky guess.

Eventually something bad will happen somewhere. Maybe even on a large scale. That doesn’t make Beck a prophet or a psychic. His constant rapid fire technique is too crass even for fake psychics that rip people off.

Beep — technique “is” so you’re good. Did your eye misread an “s” or your brain mean to put one on? But of course you’ve had misplaced apostrophes or extra-dropped-transposed letters and will again, don’t bother to add correction comments. We all have those little typos and we all can just read right past them, knowing what’s meant and not letting it disrupt the flow. You won’t find anyone here playing gotcha or doing anything but trying to keep the flow moving forward. 🙂

(My usual subject-verb agreement problem is when I start out with a single subject phrase and then make it a compound subject in editing, without thinking to change the verb/s. So I wind up posting something like: “bullying and neglect is abuse, plain and simple.” That doesn’t make anyone think I don’t know better, right?)

I used to be very good an English Grammar, way back when dinosaurs ruled the earth. I was a better speller too. But I think that I am torn between writing in a very formal voice and writing as I speak {which is a bit hick-} So over the years of being online, I think that writing more naturally has taken it’s toll on my grammar skills. Spell check killed my spelling. And I cannot find my glasses. Brand new glasses. So that helps.

I will say when I wrote in a more formal voice, people didn’t like me much at all. No matter what I was saying. So it’s easier to write in this manner. But now…

27082011

Nance Confer(20:08:49) :

Oh. That explains it. I hadn’t thought about the shilling aspect of Beck’s spiel. Of course that’s what it is. It doesn’t have to make sense in the real world.

And Mormons what now? It’s a major part of their belief system to rip others off or to prepare for the end times?

Something like that. I am sure you could look it up on Wikipedia or something. Really it’s all part of a niche market for apocalyptic belief systems. If you look at all the groups, the number of times the End of the World has been “predicted” and oddly a lot of these “prophets” didn’t loose too many of their followers after being wrong. Jehova’s Witnesses are a big group with that issue, but some Mormon Groups, and a whole lot of Protestants. I was surrounded by that mindset as a child. It has a tendency to wear on my patience. I think that when people embrace that sort of apocalyptic weirdness, especially if their status in the world is otherwise prosperous–that it smacks of some kind of suicidal ideation. It’s not that the world is going to end so much as they hope it does to end their misery, and of course if their enemies or rivals are tormented as part of that bargain and spend an eternity in hell for being unbelievers or apostates–well so much the better. Because we all know misery loves company.

But any doctrine channeling a crazed person’s lunatic ravings and paying off with enough wordlly wealth and power to amass loyal followers who’ll swallow whatever poison he or she pumps out, is not fun or funny. Not true. Not beautiful. Not good.

Can we all agree “Capitol Ministries’ is oxymoronic?”
State lawmaker cheering for the official National Prayer Car was just entertainment for the masses, apparently not what’s happening in the political pits every day. And Illinois and Texas (states whose online homeschoolers tout their legal separation from Church and State as a model for us all) are next — your civil liberties and private family sovereignty are on deck for this Church-State chopping block in the public square, and it won’t be the dreaded charter school marketers swinging the axe. Could it be Christ himself ?

. . . PBS just ran a four-part series about the Mormon Church, how carefully and effectively it governs every aspect of its members’ lives in public and private, defining everything big from parenthood to scholarship and everything small from dress to allowable beverages. Forget Mitt Romney, this reminded me that both Glenn Beck and Harry Reid are Mormons shaping the public debate but who don’t talk about “it” because their church doesn’t want them to . . . I think we all have a lot more learning to do about Church and State these days, and we’ve been distracted for far too long with trifles.

Any belief and ideology, practice or person, that America stores up in government with the best of intentions, can go bad after we stick it on the back shelf just in case and then forget how long it’s been silently sitting in the dark spoiling, if we don’t know or aren’t able to inspect and refresh regularly what we need on hand to serve us well.

And really, wouldn’t it be better preparation against very real end times threats to be harvesting, preserving and stockpiling our bounty of scientific enlightenment and strengthening neighborhood networks not by competing to win control of others but through mutual resolve to reject every form of apocalyptic politics, stampeding us toward any Promised Land and fleeing any evoked Circles of Hell?

Here’s some bad news in good cognitive science: this won’t be easy even if we’re NOT hampered by conservative dominionist control freaks styled as preachers, pundits and prophets.

. . . Somehow, enough of us must learn (by teaching ourselves against all odds, apparently) that humanity isn’t merely socialized, standardized insect life born to exist in preordained church hierarchies and/or one big biologically imperative collective called “School.”

It doesn’t get much more overt than this! Anyone dare to ask her how this would impact her presidency?

“I don’t know how much God has to do to get the attention of the politicians. We’ve had an earthquake; we’ve had a hurricane. He said, ‘Are you going to start listening to me here?'” Bachmann, a third-term Minnesota representative, told a crowd in Sarasota . . .

Probably about the same as someone who uses a magic 8 ball. I find that as far as ultra-conservative Christians go, after observing them for years that they believe just as strongly in the supernatural as any occultist. They just use a different system of interpretation. Also, Occultists are more skeptical.

Texas is in the middle of a god-awful drought. Funny his top TEA party rival for the nomination wouldn’t mention that with the other natural disasters, and interpret it for us similarly as divine displeasure with what’s he’s been up to. 😉

Well, color me surprised.
A reporter did ask Bachmann what I wanted to have asked, how she “could be trusted” to preside over disaster prep and relief if she believed it was a political message from her god to send an earthquake and hurricane against DC in one week. I just saw the question clip.

But her response is more chilling than the original bizarre statement, considering that the death count is still rising. In that perfectly groomed, contained and programmed Stepford Wife tone, she dismisses what she said as a joke and called it “absurd and ridiculous” for anyone to believe “it could have been the intention” to mean she believed that, oh, and she is “a person who loves humor” (said quite seriously, despite those crazy-shine eyes) and then even more stiffly, she said, “I think it is important to exhibit that humor sometimes when you’re talking to people as well.”

She concluded her answer with something else chilling to hear from a candidate for President of the United States of America though, when she explained as if speaking to a thick child that you can’t take everything she says as “straightforward” or you’ll “misunderstand the sense.”

That ALL may all be true, that she really does see herself as oh so funny and really was only joking about natural disasters to make political hay, and that she really believes she (and the disciples) can say anything at any time and mean it or not or code it and shroud the real meaning, and not need for any of it to make any sort of larger sense or take responsbilitiy for having meant it later.

“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone. “It means just what I choose it to mean – neither more or less.”
“The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”
“The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master – that’s all.”

And maybe that explains why she sometimes takes the word “submission” literally and takes some pretty drastic actions against her own judgment and choice, yet other times takes it to mean “respect” and doesn’t do what Authority tells her, and maybe we are thick children who don’t need to know which is which even if she’s president. Maybe it explains why she thinks giving speeches targeting people as dread enemies (not mere opponents) and calling for citizens to take up arms against their own government and fight to the death, but then disavowing responsibility or making a joke of the gun violence and disaster devastation that follow, is funny?

The joint chiefs and the other world heads of state in dangerous times will sure get a kick of of her as Leader of the Free World, yuck yuck . . .

Well, let’s define terms immediately upon using them, or far better, stick to dictionary definitions. A good argument needs no redefinitions, right?

Or a good argument is almost entirely redefinitions. Need we first argue to define good argument?

To that point, I’m surprised you missed this Python definition of argument! 🙂

I laughed at that in the 70s because it was really absurd while Bill Buckley was doing Firing Line on PBS for real — breathing life into intellect and intellect into argument and argument into television.

Initially, Cleese simply contradicts everything that Palin says. Palin insists that it is not an argument but merely contradiction and asserts that “argument’s an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gain-saying of anything the other person says.” Cleese asserts that, to have an argument, he must “take up a contrary position.” Palin is frustrated until he realises that Cleese is actually engaging him in a sort of meta-argument about what constitutes an argument.

But it’s not so funny when television and real life become one big intellectually bankrupt contradiction clinic 24-7.

I think of “good argumentation” much like, ahem, other forms of healthy human intercourse. 😉

It is meant as a creative force to uplift, connect and sustain virtues rather than do harm to anyone directly or indirectly through vice and self-indulgence. It is “good” intercourse and fun to share with the right person for the right reasons, when it’s neither deceptive, regressive nor retrogressive, iow more than masturbatory; never when it breeds violence, degradation of people, ideas or the planet, thus no, argument is not good as “mental warfare” except if CLEARLY defined and understood by all as healthy consensual sport, not actual war.

Debate skills are dead, and so is civility. And those things died years ago in our political system. It is a mixture of what you point out above, with the improper application of things like Public Hearings, and the like, to make the public *feel that they have been heard, when in actuality, we were just barking at the moon, and had no effect at all.

In a bizarre sort of way, that is in part, what lead to the baggers. Their anger is understandable, and even their incivility at times, but they are so confused that they aim it at their fellow citizens instead of the people that really deserve their ire.

At the very moment that the hurricane was pummeling the east coast and wreaking havoc upon the lives of tens of millions of Americans, Michele Bachmann was putting forth some cockamamie theory that ties it to a vengeful God, irked by fiscal imprudence.

Struck by a quick backlash, the Bachmann campaign tried to walk things back, claiming the remark was simply in jest. Even if you believe that, however, is that supposed to be better? Joking about a national disaster as tragedy is unfolding and people are fleeing for their lives?

The Vatican is particularly concerned that young people are being exposed to the influence of Satanic sects through rock music and the Internet. In theory, under the Catholic Church’s Canon Law 1172, all priests can perform exorcisms. But in reality only a select few are assigned the task. . .
The rite of exorcism involves a series of gestures and prayers to invoke the power of God and stop the “demon” influencing its victim.

And Webster Cook or some other Catholic student, maybe also a student senator, is there when it starts up, and then it turns out HE is the possessed to be um, ministered unto. And suppose he doesn’t fully cooperate or even tries to leave without completing his part in the ritual?

What is the ethical obligation of the friend he brought along, to sit passively, run for help, or help hold him down for his own good? Just get out quick to save his own academic and eternal future?

Should the secular student senate impeach the demon-possessed young man, and the student court expel him from school? (Should the exorcisms continue at the Union, with armed university police keeping any other student resisters in line?)

Granted, the “press office” denies it and it might never happen but if all Catholic officials are to be believed about Catholicism, it sure could happen —

In an interview with Italy’s Petrus web site, which concentrates on Vatican affairs, Father Gabriele Amorth, the official exorcist of the Rome diocese, said that the Holy Father would soon undertake a new campaign to combat demonic possession.
“Thank God,” said the Italian priest, “we have a Pope who has decided to confront the devil head-on.”

Father Amorth– who has gained a worldwide reputation as an expert of the subject, and the author of a popular book on exorcism and demonic possession– told Petrus that a new Vatican document would call for the designation of exorcists in every Catholic diocese around the world. He also said that Pope Benedict would restore the tradition of reciting the prayer to St. Michael the Archangel, composed by Pope Leo XIII, at the end of every Mass.

But Father Federico Lombardi, the director of the Vatican press office, flatly denied the Petrus report. The papal spokesman said: “Pope Benedict XVI has no intention of ordering local bishops to bring in garrisons of exorcists to fight demonic possession.”

The topic of exorcism commands considerable public interest in Italy, and Father Amorth has frequently generated attention with his warnings about the unchecked spread of diabolical influence. In a new course on the topic, being offered by the pontifical university Regina Apostolorum in Rome, Father Paolo Scarafoni has warned that Satanic cults are making inroads in Italian society, and cautioned that the influence of the devil is real– although he has also reported that most suspected cases of demonic possession can be explained by other factors.

So if it should develop further — and nothing on earth would stop it if it is god’s will, right? — then how is the Pope’s infallible interest in exorcising demons from congregants ANY DIFFERENT than the Pope’s interest in transubstantiating wafers for congregants — and if public universities are featuring one at the Union already, haven’t they signed on for the other? — and worse, seems like the UCF case established a precedent that general student protection rules and laws such as anti-hazing, etc, won’t apply to Catholic rites and will be automatically classed as “bogus” while any student who dares seek protection will not only get no help from the University, but will be further victimized as an example to others.

*************
Well, I for one appreciate the connection Nance and Son are making for me, between Church marketing (evangelism), movie marketing (we’ll never forget that Jaws poster and musical theme), product marketing (tv commercials) and R- party marketing (politics.)

And don’t forget that wicked university credit card marketing scheme, so slyly using sports team branding and the trust we all help instill in our kids for school, and especially higher education, as intellectually worthy of them — yes, I’m still hot about that!

So the common theme — thanks for playing, Jim! — connecting all of these, is how vital a part of real education it is, that we educate our kids about their own human thinking and how it works, so they can see through such amygdala-driven seductions and indentures. Nance and Son give me hope in REAL education and enlightenment, the kind that helps kids think critically no matter which Humbug Oz-Head is behind the curtain, belching smoke in their eyes until Fear and Longing can deliver them up as supplicants before the Foreign Altar . . .
(Talk about scary movies! That was my own first total surrender to movie manipulation, when I was about four.)

For a very long time from the early 80s to the 90s, Deliverance Ministries training was often incorporated for local law enforcement in a variety of towns and cities to help them identify dangerous non-Christian groups and adherents. {Because the police should always be on the lookout for such creatures}. In Pursuit of Satan By R. Hicks is another excellent book http://www.amazon.com/Pursuit-Satan-Police-Occult/dp/1591022193/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1314810532&sr=1-1 Though a bit dated, you can see the influence certain ahem groups had on our law enforcement before they decided to set their sites on bigger fish {namely school boards and national politics}.

The following is a guide to use when you consider casting a vote for one of the 2012 Republican presidential candidates. You may be among the Americans who have lost faith in Obama or the Democratic Party and pondering a step to the right.

Faulty as the Democrats may be, read this guide and remember that liberals still believe abolishing slavery was a good idea and that women should not be confined to the kitchen—which is not something you can say about all of the Republican contenders.

. . .does open protest with a taped-shut mouth mean freedom or fear, speech or silence, choice or not?

Exploit real-live boys and girls to save theoretical, potential boys and girls. Specks are real children, you know, and real children are specks — a “circle of life” story definitely not for children in any form, imo. (Some might even call it a wicked, demoralizing, dehumanizing message for any age.)

OTOH the protest while incoherent, was not quite as deliberately day-spoiling and shocking to the sensibilities of innocent kids out to enjoy a fun movie premiere, as it could have been made [shudder] . . .At least they were considerate enough to not scare the hell out of children even further by carrying elaborate crucifixes and gigantic banners depicting aborted fetuses.

. . .If freedom is oppression, obedience is lawbreaking, entertainment is indoctrination, protest is support, depending on Who is telling the story to Who-m and why, isn’t that the same moral relativism moral protesters usually protest?

Is our real enemy anyone Who disrespects Dr. Seuss as a sovereign individual in charge of his own stories, thoughts, beliefs and meanings? — because if they won’t respect his, they’ll likely trample my personal meanings and stories, and my kids’ too.

:

Time to revisit the 2010 elections in terms of asking candidates about their religious and extraterrestrial beliefs (did you know Mormons believe everyone gets their own planet when they die? And Louis Farrakhan’s beliefs have something to do with spaceships, according to Sean Hannity, who mocks him for it. Don’t get me started on L. Ron Hubbard.)

And there was Rand Paul’s Senate campaign in KY, in which Paulsaid about his opponent Jack Conway, whose hand he ostentatiously refused to shake after a debate in which said opponent dared to question him about a reported incident Paul obviously fears to discuss: “I’m not sure if I’ll appear in public with someone who’s gonna question my religion.”

Okay. I’m actually all for not having personal religious faith anywhere near public policy debate as question or more especially ANSWER! But I question whether Rand really is, considering past statements like:

“We Wouldn’t Need Laws If Everyone Were Christian”
and his family’s Reconstructionist worldview that God (not diverse citizens in the collective wisdom through our secular state) governs everything, including civil rights and the economy.

In that same discussion, I noted:Daryl advises me today that President George HW Bush said he didn’t consider non-theists to be citizens because this is a Christian country. Sigh. And people wonder why this country, whatever it is, is in constitutional crisis.

Speaking of religious beliefs and extra-terrestrial associations. Or machinations. It could go either way.

As for non-theists not being citizens. You don’t remember the famous phone call to the French President right after 911? The one in which Bush invites France to help ‘Mericans fight the forces of evil aka Gog and Maggog?

I think that one came up in GQ magazine of all places. Fascinating, terrifying read. I wish I could say that I was surprised, but even when that story finally hit air, I had seen so much sectarian weirdness from the Bush Admin, that nothing much surprised me.

Thinking Office of Faith Based Initiatives and how only certain groups would be approved and all that–And allowing organizations that receive Faith Based Tax Dollars to discriminate on their hiring practices. Yee Haw, it’s the new ‘Merica. All that’s missing is Torquemada and his dancing inquisitors.

Long story. The important part– it used to give me nightmares. I used to really be torn up about this stuff, because I could see how widespread it was, how well funded and down right looney this whole thing is. I could see which candidates as well. I used to monitor these shows for years, get their literature in the mail, etc., But I like others, could not get anyone to listen to us. No one wanted to believe that such a thing was in the works, much less possible. And now here we are. Women’s rights rolled back, our economy in ruins, our civil rights in ruins, and our country more at it’s own throat since maybe reconstruction.

And now the rest of the public is just now starting to catch on. I have watched this unfold for over a decade. And we are no where near being out of the woods on this JJ.

Comment Policy

Commenting here is a privilege, not a right. We do not suffer trolls, fools, and spam gladly. You are always responsible for your own comments but we don't promise to publish anything and everything that comes in. For anyone we'd welcome to the conversation here, that should be nuff said.