Here's an interesting form of fan work that I don't believe I've seen before. The ever brilliant counteragent has re-written the Sam and Cas scenes from 9.11. What I love about this is that it isn't wildly different. Just a few important adjustments (she calls it the heavy beta version).

It's interesting because this not only creates a slightly alternative version of their scenes it also means instead of saying "the dialogue was clunky and should have included XXXX" it's actually been fixed according to how the author would like to have seen it. We often get fix-it fics, but not fix-it scripts. Now, you might not like this version any better (or didn't think they needed changing) but it at least provides extra thinky (and maybe even an appreciation of TV script writing). It's also great fun and opens up some new thoughts and ideas about what could have happened. Personally, I love it. :)

And writing arguments isn't easy I imagine (not something I try very often). pocochina points out some often seen problems: guide to classical logical fallacies as employed in fandom. It's interesting reading. I maintain that some of us aren't professional writers and may not always employ sound arguing skills. It's worth knowing though and I think it's definitely an issue worth talking about.

Thanks for sharing links to these carefully thought-out posts. I tend to not stray far from my FLIST because I value staying wank-free even more than spoiler-free. But these (and the comments and references to other discussions) were very absorbing and well worth my time. (And made me now recognize a few LJ users as folks to value and look forward to.)

But these (and the comments and references to other discussions) were very absorbing and well worth my time.

Isn't it great to read discussions that don't end up in wank?! People have such interesting things to say. And I know LJ is quieter than it used to be, but there are still quiet a few around making thoughtful observations (and producing stuff! \o/).

While it's really nice to find so much activity on L/J these days, I have to say 'some' of it is making me very uncomfortable.

At the end of the day, although this tv show digs deep into our feelings and resonates, it's still written by committee as an entertainment vehicle. This isn't real life, the SPN world isn't our world and a few, by no means not all, of the metas around are almost 'kink shaming' fans for trying to stand by a favourite character. To me it's similar to the 'if you like wincest you must want to fuck your sibling' and the 'about time fandom hated Dean because everyone hated Sam in season 4' arguments. To be honest, I do struggle to understand many pieces, so I keep quiet and just read, I know I'm nowhere near the academic standards for some of them. Character hate when 'writers' (am I still allowed to blame writers?) made the choices not the actual character is getting very hard for me to stomach. It's like a grammatical problem, sometimes the best thing is to go back and restructure the whole sentence, but it's too late as the only other option was Sam dead, show over.

I don't expect anyone to be able to separate their own personal experiences and lives from this show, to talk about how this is affecting their viewing, but I'm really worried this situation is going far, far deeper than the writers have expected and there is not going to be a solution that addresses all these 'very valid in real life' concerns. I'm not sure what they're expecting to happen now, I just hope, without sounding like a 'Stupid Dean girl who can't see how ugly and controlling Dean has been since the very first episode' - that there will be some way the brothers can be together again. As a bi-bro fan I'm just trying to keep my head down and support both of them, see both sides, I really don't like this 'who's done worse and did it first' shit throwing.

I think it's an excellent and valid point you bring up. And I've been feeling it do. I don't think you're on twitter but it all got the best of me recently and I exploded with:

"Man, I'm just so tired to reading all the anti!Dean and anti!Sam crap. THEY ARE FLAWED CHARACTERS! OF COURSE THEY FUCK UP! IT'S CALLED TV!"

Yeah. I had a moment...;/

I love the discussions (as you've probably noticed ;D), but reading the hate gets a bit depressing. But I find the "you're obviously sick if you think..." the hardest thing to bear. I've seen that and it's been particularly difficult when I'm one of the (possibly) few who have relished the story line this season. Does that mean I love the idea of non consent and violation in the real world? Hell no! Does it mean I like that it can be explored in a (horror) TV show. Indeedy doody. But I am also mindful that there are some people who hate it and I completely accept that also (and I also don't accept the "don't watch it then" statement because it's not about simply not watching. It's about feeling all that emotion that goes with letting go - and being bitterly disappointed that you feel you have to let go of something you've loved for so long).

The thing with this (damn) show is we become so protective of our beloved characters. We feel we own them to a certain extent. We have invested our emotions and energy on them and we hate to see them treated in a certain way. I would put money on it that the writers haven't presented the current situation with a view to address all the issues it's stirred up (I doubt they are even aware of all the issues). When I read de_nugis's in-depth analysis of the characters I would be absolutely sure the writers and producers haven't never given it half that consideration. It doesn't mean WE can't of course, but as you say, they write via committee and for entertainment purposes - I'm sure they don't write essays on how screwed up their characters are.

For me, that we has fans and humans can talk about abuse, consent, sibling co-dependence, love etc etc etc means it's a TV show that's doing something.

Holy crap. Did I even address anything you mentioned there?! Seems I might of gone off in my own rant. In short I think there is a tendency to kink shaming and I've found it particularly prevalent this season. I also think there's a tendency of "one upmanship" in fandom. Who can be more outraged and take more umbrage over a particular issue than someone else. Ack - though I also think people should be able to speak their minds on their own journals. That's what they are there for after all.

My mind is clearly all over the place tonight (though thanks because it seems I had a few things to get off my chest..;D)xx