Hi all! So I really didn't want to make one of these threads but I'm really conflicted. I really thought HLS was where I wanted to be so (like a dumbass) I only went to the Harvard ASW in April. Unfortunately, I didn't like it at all. I didn't feel like I clicked with any of the admitted students and none (of the admittedly few) current students I met were too enthused with Harvard. The only positive thing they said was "It's Harvard" but didn't elaborate on any substantive aspects of the institution. Obviously, the Harvard name carries a ton of weight but I had hoped that students could also talk more about how they've enjoyed their time at Harvard.

The aspects about the ASW that I really liked were my mock class, class visit and the panel on clinical programs. So I feel that the things I like most about the weekend just showed me that I'm excited to study law not that I'm excited about Harvard in particular. Ultimately, I think what draws me to Harvard is: the name, the Harvard BLSA network and the idea that Harvard just affords so much career flexibility. I'm conflicted because I don't want to allow a couple of days to completely turn me away from a school (especially one as amazing as Harvard) but it's also hard to ignore the generally ambivalent/slightly negative feeling I now have towards the school.

Fortunately, I'm in at SLS and am hoping to visit early next week. Initially, I was not as interested in Stanford because it's so far from home (silly, I know), offers less courses/clinics, might not be as strong as HLS on the East Coast and doesn't have as large of a BLSA network. However, I like that Stanford has a smaller class size and therefore the possibility for more student/professor interaction, the ability to take only a clinic for an entire term and the possibility to try something new.

Career-wise, I'm interested in clerking, working in the litigation practice area of a large firm for a few years and then going into government work (something like USAO). Public interest is a possibility as well.

Alright sorry this was so long! So I guess here's the question: based on my concerns and priorities, should I go with Stanford or Harvard and why?

Finally to add: I feel very fortunate to have such great choices. I hope I didn't come off as whiny and annoying since I know these types of threads have the tendency to do that. I've also read over the other Stanford v. Harvard threads but a lot of them were for people from the West Coast and the other was someone who just wanted NYC biglaw.

elmartirio09 wrote:Hi all! So I really didn't want to make one of these threads but I'm really conflicted. I really thought HLS was where I wanted to be so (like a dumbass) I only went to the Harvard ASW in April. Unfortunately, I didn't like it at all. I didn't feel like I clicked with any of the admitted students and none (of the admittedly few) current students I met were too enthused with Harvard. The only positive thing they said was "It's Harvard" but didn't elaborate on any substantive aspects of the institution. Obviously, the Harvard name carries a ton of weight but I had hoped that students could also talk more about how they've enjoyed their time at Harvard.

The aspects about the ASW that I really liked were my mock class, class visit and the panel on clinical programs. So I feel that the things I like most about the weekend just showed me that I'm excited to study law not that I'm excited about Harvard in particular. Ultimately, I think what draws me to Harvard is: the name, the Harvard BLSA network and the idea that Harvard just affords so much career flexibility. I'm conflicted because I don't want to allow a couple of days to completely turn me away from a school (especially one as amazing as Harvard) but it's also hard to ignore the generally ambivalent/slightly negative feeling I now have towards the school.

Fortunately, I'm in at SLS and am hoping to visit early next week. Initially, I was not as interested in Stanford because it's so far from home (silly, I know), offers less courses/clinics, might not be as strong as HLS on the East Coast and doesn't have as large of a BLSA network. However, I like that Stanford has a smaller class size and therefore the possibility for more student/professor interaction, the ability to take only a clinic for an entire term and the possibility to try something new.

Career-wise, I'm interested in clerking, working in the litigation practice area of a large firm for a few years and then going into government work (something like USAO). Public interest is a possibility as well.

Alright sorry this was so long! So I guess here's the question: based on my concerns and priorities, should I go with Stanford or Harvard and why?

Finally to add: I feel very fortunate to have such great choices. I hope I didn't come off as whiny and annoying since I know these types of threads have the tendency to do that. I've also read over the other Stanford v. Harvard threads but a lot of them were for people from the West Coast and the other was someone who just wanted NYC biglaw.

Thanks in advance for your responses!

When do you have to decide by? I would put any decision making on hold and see how you feel after visiting SLS. Who knows, the decision just might be easy to make.

Visit Stanford and then decide. You can't go wrong either way. I think Stanford, because many (if not most) SLS grads self-select to the West Coast, is actually very attractive to East Coast firms because the demand for SLS grads is greater than the supply. Compared to Harvard, a larger percentage of students clerk at SLS, so the opportunity is definitely there.

Yes, hopefully visiting Stanford will help you decide. I don't know if not connecting with admitted students is a big deal. I did not feel I connected with any admitted students during the ASWs I visited. You are tired and meeting a lot of people. Are there other current students you can talk to? Maybe ask the admissions office or BLSA. I could not go to Harvard's ASW, but I did talk to some current students who seem happy there. Did the students give you any reasons why they did not like Harvard? Do you think it is something that will be an issue for you?

Harvard has more lay prestige than Stanford, but there is not really a difference in the legal world. And Stanford's smaller class size means that you are probably less screwed if you wind up at the bottom of the class compared to Harvard. If you feel like you would be happier at Stanford, you will not be hurting your career.

Read your post...as a fellow AA applicant you should definitely come to Stanford. Yeah, I'm biased as I've deposited already, but I visited both ASWs.

Interestingly enough we have very similar career goals.(clerkship, USAO, litigation, etc)

Here's some of the reasons I chose SLS.

I like the fact that SLS does not have forced LPs as Harvard does. From talking to students, pretty much no one ever gets below a P, ever. I like this because it'll allow me to focus more on learning the material in an applicable way instead of studying "for a test" (in my experience, the two types of learning are very different)I like the weather a lot more. People will tell you that the weather doesn't matter, and the weather *itself* doesn't, but for me, the fact that the weather would lead to a lot of cloudy, gloomy days was a factor - I just tend to be grumpy during weather like that. May not be important for you.The small class size was also important, more intimate relationships with professors. This sounds kinda like salesmanship, and maybe it was, but almost every professor I talked to or heard had a story about how they pulled strings for a student they knew personally. I'm sure this is possible at Harvard but it wasn't something they emphasized. They have a special clerkship commitee, which was something that appealed to me, I got the chance to speak to the head of the commitee while I was there, and was impressed.In comparing the LRAPs of both schools, I felt that Stanford's was marginally better. Either that or they sold theirs better than Harvard, but the raw stats I saw were in Stanford's favor.Finally, I just liked the location of Stanford near Silicon Valley, where so many things are being done that are on the cutting edge of where the world is going right now. Again, sounds like a bit of salesmanship but I think it makes sense.

obviously they sold me. I wouldn't make a decision without visiting, its unfortunate you weren't able to go during the ASW for the reimbursement

Note: While you're right about the BLSA at HLS being a big selling point, I didn't feel that the BLSA at Stanford would be horribly inferior. Obviously the smaller size is unfortunate, but the BLSA at Stanford seemed very tight knit and I wasn't dismayed at all

Lol@JD's salesman approach. Honestly, go where you feel is best. You can always not go to HLS and open up the spot for me LOL. But JD don't lie to the guy he will NOT be chilling all over the Bay while in law school.

i'm facing the exact same decision pretty much, but from a somewhat opposite experience. in the interest of full disclosure, i'm leaning pretty heavily toward stanford, but i won't make a final decision til i get a chance to visit harvard (haven't been since looking at UGs 5 years ago, maybe i'll react differently to it now that i'm older).

just to give background on me i guess...i grew up in norcal and my immediate family still lives there. i graduated from college on the east coast in 2010. not really certain what i want to do with a jd, but dual-degrees sound quite appealing to me and i have a pretty strong interest in politics (though not necessarily being a politician).

i was able to attend the sls asw, but missed out on harvard's because i couldn't afford a ticket . anyway, the blsa at stanford is not that big, but it seems like a relatively tight-knit and welcoming group. i had a good time meeting people at the school, and found the vast majority to be interesting and dynamic, but relatively laid back (i think that's as much a feature of california personalities as stanford itself, but it was definitely noticeable).

anyway, to continue rambling...basically the impressions i have of each school are as follows:

harvard- a harvard jd is possibly the most transferable professional degree you can have. if you want to do law, business, politics, not-for-profit, what have you, harvard law grads have a pretty good opportunity to do it.

- harvard's blsa is really, really well regarded and extensive.

- networking opportunities at harvard are pretty amazing.

- career wise, i think harvard probably opens the most doors, although what that means isn't very clear to me. i've spoken to lots of current lawyers and people in business who really think harvard 'will just open doors'. i have had a really difficult time getting anyone to specifically tell me how a harvard jd will open doors that a stanford jd wouldn't...but pretty much across the board people i've spoken to seem to think it has some innate quality that can't be replicated.

- i really don't like the cold. my freshman year of college, i probably skipped about 75% of classes if it was less than 30 degrees outside. i'm pretty positive i could not get away with that in law school and do as well as i would like to do. i know with a degree of certainty that i won't enjoy boston winters, but i'm also confident i could survive them. maybe this would impact academic performance, maybe not - although i think the impact for you would be less as an east coast native. i also find boston aesthetically ugly and somewhat unfriendly to black people (the last time i visited i had the joy of getting stopped by a police officer who was pretty disrespectful, admittedly that colors my perception).

- i have always had a weird aversion to harvard. i have found that the school and its students/alumni often have a certain level of...lets say, self-importance, that just bugs the shit out of me. though i fully recognize that this quality doesn't apply to all the students, there seems to be no condemnation of that sort of behavior/attitude in any way. i think that quality tends to exist in all of the top schools (undergraduate and professional), but for whatever reason harvard and princeton always exuded it more than any other schools in my experience. i also came from a california public school upbringing, and to be perfectly honest the east coast prep schoolers just clashed pretty hard with my personality when i went to undergrad...after a while i got over it, and met plenty of cool people, but it was annoying nonetheless. i can't tell you how much i hate burberry scarves...come on folks, not everybody needs the same fucking scarf. *disclaimer: people who like that environment, good for you...not trying to say its wrong or bad, its just not for me all the time.

stanford- stanford's culture is very welcoming, in my opinion. sometimes i think it can be a little too 'california,' and i'm particularly partial to experiencing new things...so more norcal isn't exactly what i want right now despite the fact that i fully plan to work in CA eventually. PM me if you're curious about what "too california" means, i'll save that haha.

- no idea if this matters to you, but stanford is completely committed to interdisciplinary studies. compared to every other school i've seen/talked to, they blow everybody out of the water. as someone who is desperately trying to avoid committing to any one field for the rest of my life, that seemed particularly appealing to me.

- stanford, probably more than any other university in the world, is really focused on what the world is going to be like tomorrow. in my opinion, it is the most forward-thinking university in the country. most of the ivies and other east coast schools are steeped in tradition, and rightfully try to emphasize their excellent pedigree. that can be helpful, but at stanford there seems to be a culture of innovation and interest in trying new things that doesn't exist anywhere else. law school is probably not the most innovative profession on the whole...but that attitude seems to permeate the university as a whole and the law school. it really helps that dean kramer really embraces that idea. the only other school that i've visited that seems to share that vision is berkeley, but they go about it in a very different way.

- the way stanford has set up its clinical program is pretty cool, i think. you work exclusively on a clinic for a quarter (admittedly not a long period of time), so you get an opportunity to be really immersed in it.

- stanford has a dumb number of resources dedicated to each student, it seems. while overall, i think harvard probably has more...the smaller class at stanford makes it easy to get the shit you want. from talking to current students, it really seemed like there was a huge variety in what people actually wanted to do...which suggests that competition for those resources is really spread out across various focus areas. i got the impression that if you wanted to do something, you could, and without having to really focus on getting the opportunity.

- stanford can feel a little insular. i've worked there, and outside of the campus is a nice suburban area...but it's an area geared toward older people than me (or more mature people i guess). getting around without a car can be a pain in the ass, and if you like the cultural feel of big cities, you won't get it in palo alto. san francisco is cool and you can get there, but it's not the same as living in a city by any stretch. that's a knock for me, but may not apply to you.

ultimately, i feel like i'm deciding between whether the extra cache of a harvard degree is worth more than a more livable stanford environment. i get the impression, mostly from talking to current attorneys/professionals, that harvard's name does carry a certain weight that no other university can match. plus, admittedly, having people be impressed with the name is kind of cool even if it has very little actual impact on your career. however, i think stanford's ambitious and innovative atmosphere is really attractive, and generally i enjoy being in the environment that stanford fosters more than harvard's.

hopefully reading my thought process is of some help to you...admittedly i probably wrote all this shit out mostly for my own benefit, but i figured it may be be helpful to others too. one thing i would recommend is speaking with dean kramer while you're at stanford; he's very accessible and can give you a good idea of what the law school wants you to get out of the next 3 years and how it will help you get there. if you like it, go to stanford, if not, harvard's a great school and has incredible possibilities.

The one thing I would disagree with though (dk) is that from the research I've done...it seems that it's easier to cross-list and take courses at other schools at Harvard than at Stanford. Your interests sound similar to mine in a lot of ways and I'd rather the opportunity to take classes at the Harvard Kennedy School and all that comes with it. As far as "East Coast preps"....there are those types of people everywhere and they're not all from the East Coast. I met more of those people in UG that were from the midwest than the East Coast honestly. And just as much from California as there were from Long Island. They were all like the same person, but I digress. If I was in your position I'd go to Harvard, but that's just because I wouldn't want to spend my entire life and all my experiences in one place. I turned down an ivy for UG and I'd do it again to experience something different. Besides, there is usually a large California contingent at these schools anyway. As far as "forward thinking" I can't disagree with that perception of Stanford as a whole at all. It's a great choice you guys have though. If weather gets to you that much, I'd say you gotta take Stanford.

stanford cross-lists something like 1800 classes. they basically seem to be working around ABA standards so that students can take classes anywhere else in the university. i would venture to guess that not every class is covered, but based on conversations w/ students and hearing dean kramer, it seems like you could take any class you wanted at the university (assuming its not some higher div. med school class or something crazy that you need a ton of pre-reqs to even consider, though not sure why you'd want to put yourself through that anyway unless you could handle it). up to a full year of classes can be taken outside the law school.

i got a chance to speak w/ julie barton, the director of harvard law's dual-degree stuff and special programs, and she told me that while harvard dual degrees are great opportunities, they're hard to come by. admission to HKS and HBS (those are the ones i'd be interested in) are strictly independent from admission to HLS -- stanford gave the impression that, at the very least, the dean would go to bat for you with their GSB or MPP program if you want it. that's not a guarantee, but i would think it carries some weight. also, i think that you are limited to 10 credits outside the law school at harvard. also, ms. barton told me that all 1st year courses for the b-school and kennedy school are not available to anyone who is not in those schools, ever. you could probably audit them, but i don't think you can ever get them for credit.

i definitely think you're right about the 'east coast preps', they do come from more places than just the east coast...and i don't mean to condemn them all as bad people or anything...its just a vibe i don't really mesh with, personally. you're certainly right that they are everywhere, and i don't think i conveyed that very well in all honesty...but i think at some schools that personality is the dominant one (ie. harvard, penn, columbia) and at others it isn't (stanford, berkeley, nyu) - at least from my perspective.

i also tend to think that HKS > Stanford MPP by a pretty big margin, though admittedly i haven't looked into it a ton yet. the b-schools are much more comparable in terms of opportunities/prestige. they certainly are quite different, but HBS vs. Stanford GSB is probably much more dependent on personal interests.

dkt4 wrote:- stanford's culture is very welcoming, in my opinion. sometimes i think it can be a little too 'california,' and i'm particularly partial to experiencing new things...so more norcal isn't exactly what i want right now despite the fact that i fully plan to work in CA eventually. PM me if you're curious about what "too california" means, i'll save that haha.

I don't know if this is what you are thinking of, but as a transplanted east coaster living in California, the thing that drives me most crazy about Californians is that the phrase "on time" is not part of their vocabularly. You have to get used to people showing up a half an hour to an hour late. I still cannot bring myself to show up late to things even though I know I will be the only one on time.

jd20132013 wrote:Read your post...as a fellow AA applicant you should definitely come to Stanford. Yeah, I'm biased as I've deposited already, but I visited both ASWs.

Interestingly enough we have very similar career goals.(clerkship, USAO, litigation, etc)

Here's some of the reasons I chose SLS.

I like the fact that SLS does not have forced LPs as Harvard does. From talking to students, pretty much no one ever gets below a P, ever. I like this because it'll allow me to focus more on learning the material in an applicable way instead of studying "for a test" (in my experience, the two types of learning are very different)

Just a quick clarification Harvard doesn't have forced LPs either... this stemmed from the first year of the grade change when I think some professors were under the impression that LPs were mandatory.

Anyways now LPs are left to the discretion of the professor, which basically means about 0-2 or 3 LP's max in 1L classes (and its seriously hard to get them)...

dkt4 wrote:here's a quick break-down of cross-listings for stanford/harvard...

stanford cross-lists something like 1800 classes. they basically seem to be working around ABA standards so that students can take classes anywhere else in the university. i would venture to guess that not every class is covered, but based on conversations w/ students and hearing dean kramer, it seems like you could take any class you wanted at the university (assuming its not some higher div. med school class or something crazy that you need a ton of pre-reqs to even consider, though not sure why you'd want to put yourself through that anyway unless you could handle it). up to a full year of classes can be taken outside the law school.

i got a chance to speak w/ julie barton, the director of harvard law's dual-degree stuff and special programs, and she told me that while harvard dual degrees are great opportunities, they're hard to come by. admission to HKS and HBS (those are the ones i'd be interested in) are strictly independent from admission to HLS -- stanford gave the impression that, at the very least, the dean would go to bat for you with their GSB or MPP program if you want it. that's not a guarantee, but i would think it carries some weight. also, i think that you are limited to 10 credits outside the law school at harvard. also, ms. barton told me that all 1st year courses for the b-school and kennedy school are not available to anyone who is not in those schools, ever. you could probably audit them, but i don't think you can ever get them for credit.

i definitely think you're right about the 'east coast preps', they do come from more places than just the east coast...and i don't mean to condemn them all as bad people or anything...its just a vibe i don't really mesh with, personally. you're certainly right that they are everywhere, and i don't think i conveyed that very well in all honesty...but i think at some schools that personality is the dominant one (ie. harvard, penn, columbia) and at others it isn't (stanford, berkeley, nyu) - at least from my perspective.

i also tend to think that HKS > Stanford MPP by a pretty big margin, though admittedly i haven't looked into it a ton yet. the b-schools are much more comparable in terms of opportunities/prestige. they certainly are quite different, but HBS vs. Stanford GSB is probably much more dependent on personal interests.

In my small experience. Anyone who is already in the Harvard Law School that applies to the Harvard Kennedy School during 1L is usually a pretty sure bet. Furthermore, many of the classes at the law school are cross-listed regardless with the business school and kennedy school so they'd count as law classes. I'm pretty sure at Stanford that people who are actually in the schools you want to take classes in get first priority so you may be out of luck a lot of the time. Why the dual business degree though? OH and for the record as an East Coast person....I do show up to stuff (unless it's like an important meeting or someone I don't know)...pretty much whenever I want to.

Seriously, you sound like someone who is in this for the experience and the people, not just getting a name on your degree. Harvard is all about the name. Unless the whole east coast/west coast thing is a big deal for you (no blaming you if it is), you'll have a much more pleasant experience at SLS. And don't worry about where you'll end up, that degree can take you anywhere in the country.

Seriously, you sound like someone who is in this for the experience and the people, not just getting a name on your degree. Harvard is all about the name. Unless the whole east coast/west coast thing is a big deal for you (no blaming you if it is), you'll have a much more pleasant experience at SLS. And don't worry about where you'll end up, that degree can take you anywhere in the country.

1) is certainly necessary. 2) only if you like Stanford more than Harvard. The schools are truly peers when it comes to career prospects (be it Gov't, BigLaw, or Academia), so don't let any minute differences sway you. Just go where you will be happier.

Seriously, you sound like someone who is in this for the experience and the people, not just getting a name on your degree. Harvard is all about the name. Unless the whole east coast/west coast thing is a big deal for you (no blaming you if it is), you'll have a much more pleasant experience at SLS. And don't worry about where you'll end up, that degree can take you anywhere in the country.

Non-Chalant1 wrote:In my small experience. Anyone who is already in the Harvard Law School that applies to the Harvard Kennedy School during 1L is usually a pretty sure bet. Furthermore, many of the classes at the law school are cross-listed regardless with the business school and kennedy school so they'd count as law classes. I'm pretty sure at Stanford that people who are actually in the schools you want to take classes in get first priority so you may be out of luck a lot of the time. Why the dual business degree though? OH and for the record as an East Coast person....I do show up to stuff (unless it's like an important meeting or someone I don't know)...pretty much whenever I want to.

really? that's actually somewhat encouraging re: HKS. i haven't had a chance to talk to current HLS joint-degree candidates yet, so i was mostly going off of what ms. barton told me when i called. oh, and CPT often prevails whichever coast you're on lol

halfmanhalfmach wrote:Non-Chalant, with all due respect, you have no idea what you are talking about:

See: --LinkRemoved--

Stanford is peerless in providing opportunities for a truly interdisciplinary legal education. It does have some disadvantages compared to Harvard. This is not one of them.

What's dunno is I'm aware of that article and it doesn't dispel anything I said. If you read you'd know I said Stanford is more forward thinking and pushes more than anyone else. Secondly, I said that many of the course offered by HLS OR HKS which the individual is interested in...are open for both law school and HLS students to register for as part of their respective schools. Third, HKS is better than Stanfords policy school which dk is interested. Fourth, do your research on the extent to which law school students at Stanford get first dibs on the more popular courses they want outside of their school. So in all due respect...nothing I said was inaccurate. You just took it wrong. Inefficiency complaints from two years ago are definitely definitive proof that crosslisting doesn't occur at Harvard.

halfmanhalfmach wrote:Non-Chalant, with all due respect, you have no idea what you are talking about:

See: --LinkRemoved--

Stanford is peerless in providing opportunities for a truly interdisciplinary legal education. It does have some disadvantages compared to Harvard. This is not one of them.

What's dunno is I'm aware of that article and it doesn't dispel anything I said. If you read you'd know I said Stanford is more forward thinking and pushes more than anyone else. Secondly, I said that many of the course offered by HLS OR HKS which the individual is interested in...are open for both law school and HLS students to register for as part of their respective schools. Third, HKS is better than Stanfords policy school which dk is interested. Fourth, do your research on the extent to which law school students at Stanford get first dibs on the more popular courses they want outside of their school. So in all due respect...nothing I said was inaccurate. You just took it wrong. Inefficiency complaints from two years ago are definitely definitive proof that crosslisting doesn't occur at Harvard.

u spek engles bro?

--> just messin around - i actually do comprehend the points you're trying to get across.

halfmanhalfmach wrote:Non-Chalant, with all due respect, you have no idea what you are talking about:

See: --LinkRemoved--

Stanford is peerless in providing opportunities for a truly interdisciplinary legal education. It does have some disadvantages compared to Harvard. This is not one of them.

What's dunno is I'm aware of that article and it doesn't dispel anything I said. If you read you'd know I said Stanford is more forward thinking and pushes more than anyone else. Secondly, I said that many of the course offered by HLS OR HKS which the individual is interested in...are open for both law school and HLS students to register for as part of their respective schools. Third, HKS is better than Stanfords policy school which dk is interested. Fourth, do your research on the extent to which law school students at Stanford get first dibs on the more popular courses they want outside of their school. So in all due respect...nothing I said was inaccurate. You just took it wrong. Inefficiency complaints from two years ago are definitely definitive proof that crosslisting doesn't occur at Harvard.

u spek engles bro?

--> just messin around - i actually do comprehend the points you're trying to get across.

Nah I would laugh too. The auto correct option on my cellphone does that to me all the time. I have just accepted it.