Terez, now I feel like you've just been yanking our collective chains. How could you even think that you could play Chopin Etudes if you have "no natural facility for the piano" and are essentially self-taught? The Chopin etudes (some of the pinncale of piano literature) are then way over your head (and hands) and you would really do well to step way back and train, the way everybody else has that can perform the Chopin etudes in an artistic and successful manner.

For your information, IMO the Czerny Etudes are meant only to be highly concentrated studies on technical matters (as a continuation of Kohler), but many of his studies are very musical - and very demanding technically - especially from the School of Legato and Staccato, and The Art of Finger Dexterity. Since you're having trouble with Chopin, I'm sure you would have trouble with these too. As opposed to the "more mechanical" etudes of Czerny which are extended by Cramer and Clementi, the "more artisitic" may begin with Streabbog and Burgmuller, and continue with Heller and the others listed in my earlier post, and these two lines blend together in works of Moskowski, Moscheles, etc. All of these are NOT exercises. At the same time one should be doing exercises like Schmitt (develops independence of the fingers in closed hand position), Phillip fully-diminshed 7th exercises (the superlative training for developing independence of the fingers with the hand in open position), as well as all scales and arpeggios in every concievable combination of difficulty (always and forever), Kullak studies and etudes for octaves, Berens exercises and etudes for the LH, Moskowski's School of Double-Notes. To all this is added repertoire, which always includes Bach. Nothing prepares for Bach; one starts with the easier didactic works and progresses through them (Notebook and other Preludes, Inventions, Sinfonias, 1 French Suite, WTC and Partitas, ... well until you die or can play the Goldberg Variations from memory. *[Was it you that posted earlier that you spent (or would dedicate) five years to practicing the Rachmaninoff Rhapsody? That is insane. If it was you, you are in denial. If you can't learn to play it in one year, forget it, it's beyond you and no matter how much you try, you will not be able because you lack foundation and breadth.] Piano literature is a library as big as an ocean, but to play great masterworks, A. you have to have natural facility for the piano, B. you must have opportunity to train well and thouroghly, C. you must take advantage of that oportunity, D. you must work VERY HARD for MANY years. There are no cutting corners (Arthur Rubinstein cut corners in his early technical training, and later retreated from concertizing for a year to work on what he had skipped).

You seem to repeatedly scorn the notion of graded training, yet every great pianist goes through it. I will bet you that Ms. Babic can list a veritable catalogue of technical work she did prior to advancing to the Chopin Etudes. You should identify what you can play as well as any artist can play, and that should be your baseline to begin (?) training. (But these things must be done when in our youth )

The expressive aspect of music has always been easy for me. This is why people have always made the mistake of thinking I was a talented pianist (my current teacher included). I'm stupid when it comes to technique.

Then why on earth is all you want to play the hardest of etudes ? And then endlessly moan that you can't do it ? I really don't dig this, you must be one terribly frustrated person (I am reminded of PJF....) There is so much great and wonderful music that does not require hardboiled technical mastery. Even when you confine yourself to Chopin, there is so much to wallow in.

Terez, now I feel like you've just been yanking our collective chains. How could you even think that you could play Chopin Etudes if you have "no natural facility for the piano" and are essentially self-taught?

Because I'm delusional. Everyone who knows me knows that much about me.

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The Chopin etudes (some of the pinncale of piano literature) are then way over your head (and hands)

Are they? Just because I've had relatively little training? I realize I can't play any of them properly yet, but I enjoy working on them, and I'm learning a lot from them...so why not? I don't have zero training - I've spent the last four years working on a piano performance degree - but it's not my teacher's fault that I have so many bad habits from my undisciplined childhood. She's helped me correct quite a few of them, as have Bach and Chopin. I conquer new ones every day. Fortunately my teacher never made me play Czerny, or Clementi (she actually forbade that), or Hanon (she and I both scoff at another student of hers who plays his Hanon every day), or anything else except for one non-Bach/Chopin composer each semester. If she had made me play any of that, I'd have probably quit.

Quote:

and you would really do well to step way back and train, the way everybody else has that can perform the Chopin etudes in an artistic and successful manner.

That's what Bach breaks are for.

Quote:

If you can't learn to play it in one year, forget it, it's beyond you and no matter how much you try, you will not be able because you lack foundation and breadth.

This, I disagree with. All that matters to me is A. that I enjoy what I work on, B. that I learn something that is applicable to other music, and C. that I make progress on the piece(s) I'm working on. I would eventually like to play some of them well, and while I'm always going past my deadlines, I don't think that Chopin etudes are 'beyond me'.

Quote:

You seem to repeatedly scorn the notion of graded training, yet every great pianist goes through it.

I scorn it because 1. it's boring, and 2. I don't know that it's necessarily a good thing, judging from the average trained pianist. And 3. I simply don't have the discipline to practice music or exercises that I find boring. I have come to learn that this will never change.

(Edited because I thought you were Chris the whole time I was responding to you.)

The expressive aspect of music has always been easy for me. This is why people have always made the mistake of thinking I was a talented pianist (my current teacher included). I'm stupid when it comes to technique.

Then why on earth is all you want to play the hardest of etudes ? And then endlessly moan that you can't do it ? I really don't dig this, you must be one terribly frustrated person (I am reminded of PJF....) There is so much great and wonderful music that does not require hardboiled technical mastery. Even when you confine yourself to Chopin, there is so much to wallow in.

I have played a lot of other Chopin. I'm digging the etudes right now. I'm not 'moaning' about not being able to do it; I enjoy the challenge. What have I said that you think is 'moaning'? And you yourself said I could post my recording of 25/11 in the audition room and not be ashamed of it, and while I disagree (and maybe you do too - people don't always say what they mean), then doesn't that answer your question as to why I do it? 25/1, 11, and 12 need more work, and they are getting it...10/12 is really helping with the LH of 25/12, and 10/1 is helping with the RH, so that one is getting much more solid. I've gone back to slow practice on 25/11 and have made a lot of progress. 10/4 has been interesting but it hasn't gotten to the point that I'm learning much from it yet. 10/2 has always been a help for 25/11, and 25/6 is helpful for both (those three work together nicely). 10/3 I'm doing because I need to relearn the fingering; it's been a year or more since I touched that one, but it's ready to go up another notch. That was the first etude I tried as a child, and I segued around the middle part. I started trying to learn the middle section as a teenager, and that's also when I began working on 25/1 and 25/12. I've had two or three goes at 25/12 since, and this is my second go at 25/1.

I'm glad to see there are others here who appreciate Czerny. I could never deny my great-great-great-grand teacher!

Why? I could, even though we share similar teacher pedigrees (<teacher> - Heinrich Gebhardt - Theodor Leschetizky - Czerny - Beethoven). You may have an extra "great" in there.

I was always secretly jealous of people boasting an impressive teacher pedigree. At last it occurred to me to dig up mine, and I'm happy to find that through my lessons with Evelina Vorontsova, it goes back to Schumann and Mendelssohn The sequence being Evelina Vorontsova - Mikhail Voskressensky - Lev Oborin - Yelena Gnessin - Ferrucio Busoni - Carl Reinecke - Schumann & Mendelssohn. It seems likely (but I'm not sure) that Yelena Gnessin is a descendant of the 3 sisters who founded the famous Gnessin Academy.

I'm glad to see there are others here who appreciate Czerny. I could never deny my great-great-great-grand teacher!

Why? I could, even though we share similar teacher pedigrees (<teacher> - Heinrich Gebhardt - Theodor Leschetizky - Czerny - Beethoven). You may have an extra "great" in there.

I was always secretly jealous of people boasting an impressive teacher pedigree. At last it occurred to me to dig up mine, and I'm happy to find that through my lessons with Evelina Vorontsova, it goes back to Schumann and Mendelssohn The sequence being Evelina Vorontsova - Mikhail Voskressensky - Lev Oborin - Yelena Gnessin - Ferrucio Busoni - Carl Reinecke - Schumann & Mendelssohn. It seems likely (but I'm not sure) that Yelena Gnessin is a descendant of the 3 sisters who founded the famous Gnessin Academy.

Wow, that's impressive! How do you find teacher lineage? Never mind, I'm sure you just have to read bios. I'm going to look for mine too.

_________________"Simplicity is the highest goal, achievable when you have overcome all difficulties." ~ Frederic Chopin

I'm glad to see there are others here who appreciate Czerny. I could never deny my great-great-great-grand teacher!

Why? I could, even though we share similar teacher pedigrees (<teacher> - Heinrich Gebhardt - Theodor Leschetizky - Czerny - Beethoven). You may have an extra "great" in there. I disagree by pushing any Czerny upon students. They're rather archaic training exercises. It has chased many students away from music. Nobody plays Czerny studies in concert. For a contemporary approach to technique, I would think that Hanon or Philippe exercises are more efficient, evolved, and might complement as prerequisites to learning Chopin Etudes. I still advocate learning the majority of Chopin Preludes in preparation for the Etudes from a musical and technical standpoint. The Preludes can stand by themselves in concert - they're mini-etudes, and musically mature.

My 16 yr old cousin is shrouded with Czerny, and hasn't even done a single Chopin Prelude after the Canadian RCM 10 Exam. 10 years without a single Chopin Prelude is ludicrous! I advised her to cut back on Czerny, and start learning more Beethoven Sonatas, Chopin Preludes, a concerto, and enter a competition before HS graduation. She is now excited to learn new and exciting repertoire and will hopefully pursue music!

Re:

Quote:

Liszt-Paganini Etudes.

Eddy, good luck with yours. The past few weeks, I am taking care of unfinished business - I am challenging myself to finish a Liszt-Paganini Etude that I started, but never finished when my teacher was alive. Maybe it's a better appreciation for the kinesthesiology of technique over time? It's ironic that I am more efficient with respect to technique, time, and energy, than I was as a teen. These days, a limited practice schedule is against me ~ 1hr a week... This is a big challenge to see if I can accomplish something that I couldn't do as a 19 yr old?... Can 40 yr old technical efficiency can outweigh 20 yr old inexperience?...

George

Hi George. First, I'm not now working on any Liszt, but have some plans for some a ways down the road. Regarding our teachers, you must be older than me , because it takes me 5 steps to get to Czerny and 2 of my 3 teachers are already passed and the last has had a stroke and is about 70 (I'm 53). And to add yet again to the discussion of Czerny, I would like to state that anyone familiar with the Schumann Tocatta should appreciate immediately the debt Schumann owes to Czerny's influence (although I am not able at this moment to prove it) for Czerny's Toccata (Op. 92) in also in C major and features double notes! Not many people have ever even heard this piece. Check it on YouTube at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_0u9dLCRRY. The kinship is unquestionable. Another interesting little work is his Op.740, No 33. in A-flat, a study in octaves for the RH: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwCQpxkvWvc&playnext=1&list=PLE3B55624475BEECDRegarding the Chopin Preludes, I think they are overrated. They are a very mixed bag, either super easy or super difficult. They don't serve IMO very well in a didactic progression, and don't serve as any significant preparatiion for his Etudes, which must be approached by much wider terrain.

88man wrote:

I am challenging myself to finish a Liszt-Paganini Etude that I started, but never finished when my teacher was alive.

Please don't say it's Mazeppa or Feux follets

_________________Eddy M. del Rio, MD"A smattering will not do. They must know all the keys, major and minor, and they must literally 'know them backwards.'" - Josef Lhevinne

Last edited by musical-md on Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

Hello Eddy, I am not older, I am 42. I now see that you (and Chris) have an extra teacher lineages. My teacher passed away 13 yrs ago. To give an idea of her age, at NEC, she was classmates with Leonard Bernstein, Alan Hovaness, and Louise Vosgerchian (later at Harvard - I knew her as a juror from a piano competition). They are all deceased. My teacher was never boastful and only after 5 yrs of lessons did she mention that she studied with Heinrich Gebhardt at New England Conservatory. It all started when I was learning the Brahms Two Rhapsodies, Op. 79, and Heinrich Gebhardt was the editor in the Schirmer edition. She told me about the lineage once, and never brought it up again. No Monica, it's not in my bio (sounds pretentious as an amateur). I only brought it up because Eddy brought back fond memories of my teacher... A day hardly goes by when I am not reminded of her - either a familiar piece on the radio, echoes of life's anecdotes, teachings of history, art, musicology, etc. She's the best teacher I've ever had in any discipline. She was a like a second mother during my teenage years...

Thanks Eddy, for the link to the Czerny works. In terms of technical difficulty, the 2 examples transcend the category of "prerequisite," but could even stand as "parallel" to Chopin Etudes in difficulty. Musically, it might be a different story. I will not argue Czerny's established school of technique, only to add that there are many roads that lead to Rome. The evolution of piano technique have included many pianists, and fortunately technique continued to evolve even after Chopin. Perhaps Chopin is a single point along the chronological musical timeline, and so is Czerny. The Czerny school is valid, along with other aforementioned schools of technique on the thread which followed much later. Most pianist ideologies seem complete in addressing the technical elements in piano literature (octaves, trills, 3rds, 6ths, scales, arpeggios, repeated notes, finger substitution, stretches, etc.). Which school of technique for learning the Chopin Etudes - Czerny, Hanon, Philippe, etc.?... Probably a matter of taste or the teacher at hand (no pun intended).

Wow, that's impressive! How do you find teacher lineage? Never mind, I'm sure you just have to read bios. I'm going to look for mine too.

I knew it went back to Lev Oborin, and Wikipedia provided the rest. Actually the line through my second teacher is intriguing too, and less convoluted: Folke Nauta - Jan Wijn - Alicia de Larrocha - Frank Marshall - Enrique Granados. Time to play more Spanish music again...

Wow, that's impressive! How do you find teacher lineage? Never mind, I'm sure you just have to read bios. I'm going to look for mine too.

I knew it went back to Lev Oborin, and Wikipedia provided the rest. Actually the line through my second teacher is intriguing too, and less convoluted: Folke Nauta - Jan Wijn - Alicia de Larrocha - Frank Marshall - Enrique Granados. Time to play more Spanish music again...

OMG....really??? Ahhhhh!!!(i want that lineage ¡!)

_________________"Simplicity is the highest goal, achievable when you have overcome all difficulties." ~ Frederic Chopin

No Monica, it's not in my bio (sounds pretentious as an amateur). I only brought it up because Eddy brought back fond memories of my teacher...

I meant reading the bios of our teachers. I would never list that in my own bio either. But guess what? I have a similar line of teachers as you: Alexander Djordjevic Vitali Margulis Scriabin Vasily Safonov Leschetisky Czerny Beethoven (and Clementi).

_________________"Simplicity is the highest goal, achievable when you have overcome all difficulties." ~ Frederic Chopin

Has been for a while. I found the sketch of the tree my mom made for our teacher, and it's a little more complicated than I'd remembered (and all three lines were through Czerny - only two through Leschetizky).

I don't know the tree for my other teachers, but I'm sure they have pedigree too. I do know that my current teacher studied with Abbey Simon; there's a rich pedigree there which I am too lazy to research. Another former teacher was a Juilliard grad.

No Monica, it's not in my bio (sounds pretentious as an amateur). I only brought it up because Eddy brought back fond memories of my teacher...

I meant reading the bios of our teachers. I would never list that in my own bio either. But guess what? I have a similar line of teachers as you: Alexander Djordjevic Vitali Margulis Scriabin Vasily Safonov Leschetisky Czerny Beethoven (and Clementi).

Well what do you know? Monica and I are related ! V. Safonov was my great-grand teacher (through the line of both Lhevinnes, not Scriabin). BTW everyone (Chris are you listening?) anyone who traces back to Czerny and Beethoven, also goes back to JS Bach! Now that's what I'm talking about! Ok one other tidbit. While I was working on my MM degree, I discovered that Beethoven had written a little diddly (Hochzeitslied WoO 105) for the wedding of one Anna Ginastasio del Rio! She was the daughter of the Headmaster that Ludwig placed his nephew under. I have not been able to complete the line in my history since the family came from pre-communist Cuba, but I know it goes back to Spain. Maybe someday

_________________Eddy M. del Rio, MD"A smattering will not do. They must know all the keys, major and minor, and they must literally 'know them backwards.'" - Josef Lhevinne

V. Safonov was my great-grand teacher (through the line of both Lhevinnes, not Scriabin). BTW everyone (Chris are you listening?) anyone who traces back to Czerny and Beethoven, also goes back to JS Bach! Now that's what I'm talking about! Ok one other tidbit. While I was working on my MM degree, I discovered that Beethoven had written a little diddly (Hochzeitslied WoO 105) for the wedding of one Anna Ginastasio del Rio! She was the daughter of the Headmaster that Ludwig placed his nephew under. (

Neato! I like hearing about this sort of thing.

_________________"Simplicity is the highest goal, achievable when you have overcome all difficulties." ~ Frederic Chopin

OMG, OMG, OMG - Eddy! I'm freaking out a little - guess what I just heard on Performance Today? They talked about your ancestor except they called her Fanny del Rio. Supposedly, she had a crush on Beethoven. He was about 45 years old at the time, but didn't return her feelings because he was still in love with the 'mystery' woman. Wow!!!! You can hear it on the hour 2 of today's broadcast at around 41.00.

_________________"Simplicity is the highest goal, achievable when you have overcome all difficulties." ~ Frederic Chopin

I meant reading the bios of our teachers. I would never list that in my own bio either. But guess what? I have a similar line of teachers as you: Alexander Djordjevic Vitali Margulis Scriabin Vasily Safonov Leschetisky Czerny Beethoven (and Clementi).

Well what do you know? Monica and I are related ! V. Safonov was my great-grand teacher (through the line of both Lhevinnes, not Scriabin). BTW everyone (Chris are you listening?)

Of course Eddy ! Sitting up and listening, and wagging the tail, actually

musical-md wrote:

anyone who traces back to Czerny and Beethoven, also goes back to JS Bach! Now that's what I'm talking about!

Alright, you win.

Though come to think of it, via my second teacher, I go back to Czerny too, via Jan Wijn, Bela Siki, Erno Dohnaniy, Eugen d'Albert, and Liszt. It's a bit far-fetched as Dohnanyi took only a couple of lessons with d'Albert - I guess he had very little to learn.

Now to see if anyone can trace back even further than Bach. Fun game, isn't it.

Well what do you know? Monica and I are related ! V. Safonov was my great-grand teacher (through the line of both Lhevinnes, not Scriabin). BTW everyone (Chris are you listening?)

Of course Eddy ! Sitting up and listening, and wagging the tail, actually

musical-md wrote:

anyone who traces back to Czerny and Beethoven, also goes back to JS Bach! Now that's what I'm talking about!

Alright, you win.

Though come to think of it, via my second teacher, I go back to Czerny too, via Jan Wijn, Bela Siki, Erno Dohnaniy, Eugen d'Albert, and Liszt. It's a bit far-fetched as Dohnanyi took only a couple of lessons with d'Albert - I guess he had very little to learn.

Now to see if anyone can trace back even further than Bach. Fun game, isn't it.

I had the pleasure of knowing Bela Siki while I was in Cincinnati; a truely fabulous artist!

_________________Eddy M. del Rio, MD"A smattering will not do. They must know all the keys, major and minor, and they must literally 'know them backwards.'" - Josef Lhevinne

"All In The Family!" Looks like we're ALL related: Me, Chris, Eddy, Monica, Terez! Very interesting backgrounds everyone.Now, only if we could live up to playing as good as the teachers in our musical lineages. (I speak for myself)

Monica, how many years have you studied with Djordjevic?... He's a great Liszt interpreter; I am surprised that you don't play more Liszt?... I studied with mine for 9 years until 2nd year in college, then reality set in...

techneut wrote:

Now to see if anyone can trace back even further than Bach. Fun game, isn't it.

Terez wrote:

It's apparently more fun than playing Czerny.

That's Classic! (no pun intended)

_________________"Nobility of spirit has more to do with simplicity than ostentation, wisdom rather than wealth, commitment rather than ambition." ~Riccardo Muti

"All In The Family!" Looks like we're ALL related: Me, Chris, Eddy, Monica, Terez! Very interesting backgrounds everyone.Now, only if we could live up to playing as good as the teachers in our musical lineages. (I speak for myself)

lol, you could probably speak for all of us. Now I just wish I could trace my lineage back to Chopin - that's harder to do!

"All In The Family!" Looks like we're ALL related: Me, Chris, Eddy, Monica, Terez! Very interesting backgrounds everyone.Now, only if we could live up to playing as good as the teachers in our musical lineages. (I speak for myself)

Monica, how many years have you studied with Djordjevic?... He's a great Liszt interpreter; I am surprised that you don't play more Liszt?... I studied with mine for 9 years until 2nd year in college, then reality set in...

I said it before...we are like a little family here. Guess I'm the mom.

Anyway, I studied with Alexander for about 3 years. It was recently - my taking lessons again after a long break. You're right about him being a great Liszt interpreter. His last CD was the 2010 recipient of the Hungarian Liszt Society’s 35th Annual Franz Liszt International Grand Prix du Disque. I went with him when he recorded it. Very interesting experience! And I did play a few Liszt pieces while studying with him. But he introduced me to lots of other pieces that I never knew about, plus I was constantly bringing in my own pieces that I wanted him to teach me and so we just never had enough time to play everything....I've stopped the lessons currently, but now that I'm comfortable in my new routine, maybe I can start up again. I'd love that! There is still plenty he can teach me!!

_________________"Simplicity is the highest goal, achievable when you have overcome all difficulties." ~ Frederic Chopin

10/12 is coming along quite nicely. Most of it really is easy, but there are a few LH bits that are just brutal. Mostly they just need practice, but I'm having a hard time figuring out the proper hand position to make this work:

Can you describe exactly where/what the problem is? Most people don't rate this as one of the more difficult parts; the section starting in G sharp minor usually causes more trouble.

Indeed, that part causes more trouble. But I think I've figured it out (that is, the bit I asked about) - it just requires a certain lightness and direction that I had to work out. I've mostly got this one down; I might post a practice recording of it in this thread in a week or so, along with 10/1, which is coming along. I'm also starting to get the hang of 10/4, now that I've figured out the right fingerings (I understand now why Nathan compared it to 10/2). 10/3 is also coming along so I might post practice recordings of all four next week (10/1, 3, 4, and 12). I'm spending less time on 10/2 for now, but still working on it a little, along with the Op. 25 etudes (1, 6, 7, 11, and 12).

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