This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the FAQ and RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate and remove the ads - it's free!

Re: US hostage Kassig 'killed by IS'

Originally Posted by Kobie

You mean the government we were trying to legitimize?

Yes. We could have assassinated him or allowed it to happen through our own non-intervention. Maliki was not critical to success in Iraq. Nobody would have cared. The internal fight was over oil revenue sharing and nothing else at that point.

Re: US hostage Kassig 'killed by IS'

Originally Posted by Hatuey

I know what side I'm on. Getting us into Iraq is and will always be bull****. However, in our third intervention, it's now obvious that - deposing Saddam left a void (like Cheney predicted in the 90s), that void was filled by insurgents from the beginning (predicted by Cheney again) and going in a third time is likely to turn Iraq into ... well.. another ****ty war we fight thanks to the rehashed white man's burden so many neoconservatives have.

Iraq is not like Korea, Germany or like Japan. Those countries weren't based on tribal factions and a borderline psychotic adherence to religious beliefs. For the most part, they were nations based on laws before we gave them democratic rule. Why do you think China is communist today? It's a country founded on strongman rule. It is a country where democracy and discussion was second to imperial rule and the Mandate of Heaven.

Going into Iraq a 3rd time will be a mistake if we go at it alone and the way it looks, that's how it's going to be. Unless we can shore up support from other nations, we're looking at thousands of American men and women dying for nothing other than the same neoconservative bull**** we've been dealt for nearly 15 years.

I believe it is a mistake to attempt to impose democracy. However there are successful non-fundamentalist middle eastern countries that could have and shave been engaged in helping to establish effective government in Iraq.

While it is true Germany and Japan were unlike Iraq, there are some other absolutes in place. The US support of a successful Iraq ended before the 2004 elections. Politicians were more invested in winning the 2004 election than they were interested in presenting a unified front against terrorists. Everything that many conservatives are doing with regard to Obama, liberals did to Bush in spades. The US support of Germany and Japan dwarfs the support offered to creating a successful post war Iraq.

I dont think we should launch a boots on the ground war against ISIS alone and certainly not right now. I support the continued use of drones and air strikes. At the same time...I tend to take Jihadists seriously. What they are doing to entire villages of children and women they would do around the globe if not checked. I also am repulsed by a world of people that stand by and watch (or turn a blind eye to) atrocities around the world and do nothing because its 'not their problem'.

Re: US hostage Kassig 'killed by IS'

Originally Posted by Hatuey

Still lying about what you stated? Again, Iraq didn't want to work with us. They asked to stay with the condition that we'd give up extraterritoriality. Not only was that unfeasible, it proves they had no interest in us staying at all. Keep lying US Con. Maybe if you do it long enough, it will come true.

I already linked to where Maliki asked him to stay via executive agreement, YOU continue to bring up extraterritoriality when I did nothing of the sort. FOCUS, I never made that claim.

Re: US hostage Kassig 'killed by IS'

Originally Posted by Declan

Too many mistakes were made early on that turned tactical convenience into insurmountable strategic failures. We would have needed McCain's 100 year war to even make a decent showing of it. It wasn't about throwing people to the wolves. We failed and needed to cut our losses. AMERICA failed, not Obama, and we failed before most people ever heard the name Obama in their lives.

Despite your rhetoric trying to avoid admitting the above making me not even want to discuss it further with you, I will say this: What we should do depends on what one wants the post war region to realistically look like--the only two choices are religious oligarchy or somewhat secular autocracy. The only in-between is biding time until you have one or the other at a great human toll.

Wars with radical islamists dont end because you'd like to cut and run. Thats not how it works-this war ends with one side dead. Thats how ideological wars work, and we are NOT the aggressor here. And no, America has not lost this war, though many defeatists on the left would love to see that.

Re: US hostage Kassig 'killed by IS'

Originally Posted by Kobie

The immunities issue was always a condition of United States forces remaining in Iraq. Why can you not comprehend this?

Now, if your argument is that we should have stayed, extraterritoriality be damned, then fine, make the argument. It's a dumb argument, but at least it's an argument, not a steadfast denial of facts that are in your own source.

Kobie, I was not, nor am I now discussing legal immunities. Read that again.
Obama had ways to keep our troops in Iraq, this is well known and backed up by higher ups who have said as much. Obama chose not to, and now terrorism flourishes-this must have been what was meant by hope and change.

Re: US hostage Kassig 'killed by IS'

Originally Posted by US Conservative

Wars with radical islamists dont end because you'd like to cut and run. Thats not how it works-this war ends with one side dead. Thats how ideological wars work, and we are NOT the aggressor here. And no, America has not lost this war, though many defeatists on the left would love to see that.

Well since it is not your blood soaking into the sand, you have the luxury of not being the one who pays the price for your being wrong.