Swerb wrote:Go start a blog if you want to tell the world your incomprehendible ramblings.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.

It seems that I'm in the ever shinking minority of people who don't think that Holgren has been an epic fuckup. There are definite things that he should have done different, (the biggest in hindsight is retaining Mangini) but I'm not sure anyone should be held to the standard of NEVER doing something that anyone disagrees with.

Is Shurmer a fuck up? It sure as shit looks like it. But then again maybe it would behoove us to give it more than 1 year. Heckert seems like a good GM to me. I like what I've seen out of him as far as the draft is concerned for the most part.

The lack of utilizing free agency is kind of baffling, definitely frustrating, and quite possibly the wrong approach. However, what it IS is the exact thing that they said they would do from the day they were hired.

I don't know. I'm still not ready to call them a lost cause. Of course I am the guy who is probably the last guy standing who likes Mark Shapiro.

If it were a true tie, I could see it going to WAS for friendship's sake. But the 4 is worth a lot more than the 6, so unless STL felt that the Redskins would be worse than the Browns the next couple years (doubtful), the Rams would be criminally incompetent to take a lesser offer just to be a pal.

I'm guessing the Browns did offer the 3 1's, and Holmgren feels that their 3 1's are better than Washington's 3 1's and a 2. But STL felt differently, or felt it was tie enough to give it to Shanny.

Hikohadon wrote:If it were a true tie, I could see it going to WAS for friendship's sake. But the 4 is worth a lot more than the 6, so unless STL felt that the Redskins would be worse than the Browns the next couple years (doubtful), the Rams would be criminally incompetent to take a lesser offer just to be a pal.

I'm guessing the Browns did offer the 3 1's, and Holmgren feels that their 3 1's are better than Washington's 3 1's and a 2. But STL felt differently, or felt it was tie enough to give it to Shanny.

Yeah...whatever...the important thing is you and I being Lamonte-like in our signature presentation. We can no longer disagree and everything we do must be done to benefit either us as an entity or individually.

Hikohadon wrote:If it were a true tie, I could see it going to WAS for friendship's sake. But the 4 is worth a lot more than the 6, so unless STL felt that the Redskins would be worse than the Browns the next couple years (doubtful), the Rams would be criminally incompetent to take a lesser offer just to be a pal.

I'm guessing the Browns did offer the 3 1's, and Holmgren feels that their 3 1's are better than Washington's 3 1's and a 2. But STL felt differently, or felt it was tie enough to give it to Shanny.

Yeah...whatever...the important thing is you and I being Lamonte-like in our signature presentation. We can no longer disagree and everything we do must be done to benefit either us as an entity or individually.

Hikohadon wrote:If it were a true tie, I could see it going to WAS for friendship's sake. But the 4 is worth a lot more than the 6, so unless STL felt that the Redskins would be worse than the Browns the next couple years (doubtful), the Rams would be criminally incompetent to take a lesser offer just to be a pal.

I'm guessing the Browns did offer the 3 1's, and Holmgren feels that their 3 1's are better than Washington's 3 1's and a 2. But STL felt differently, or felt it was tie enough to give it to Shanny.

Yeah...whatever...the important thing is you and I being Lamonte-like in our signature presentation. We can no longer disagree and everything we do must be done to benefit either us as an entity or individually.

I concur. Everything you say makes sense.

Stunning new avatar you went with. Great choice. Unless you change it to something else. I'll support that strongly as well regardless of your choice. Be well.

You need a job or anything?

I could do a 'consultant' thing too if you'd rather do nothing and get cash.

I could do a 'consultant' thing too if you'd rather do nothing and get cash.

Do you have anything where I can come in the office once a week, watch a little film, flirt with the secretary, then fall asleep on the couch? I can give you player insight that you probably haven't heard. Stuff like "You have to watch out for Tom Brady." Then break out the midget jokes.

Swerb wrote:Go start a blog if you want to tell the world your incomprehendible ramblings.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.

I could do a 'consultant' thing too if you'd rather do nothing and get cash.

Do you have anything where I can come in the office once a week, watch a little film, flirt with the secretary, then fall asleep on the couch? I can give you player insight that you probably haven't heard. Stuff like "You have to watch out for Tom Brady." Then break out the midget jokes.

I could do a 'consultant' thing too if you'd rather do nothing and get cash.

Do you have anything where I can come in the office once a week, watch a little film, flirt with the secretary, then fall asleep on the couch? I can give you player insight that you probably haven't heard. Stuff like "You have to watch out for Tom Brady." Then break out the midget jokes.

Hell yes I do. Around here we call it the GillieHaskell Treatment. Only when "we're" around though. If Pup asks it just doesn't exist.

Being a self-important douche, as he is, doesn't mean I don't believe his football reporting (when it's not pure opinion). Reminds me of, to take an example from a sport the two of us, but few others, enjoy (IndyCar), Robin Miller. Miller's a notorious asshole, whose opinion columns pissed off everyone, esp. 16th & Georgetown. But like it or not, he's always broken big IndyCar news stories. When he writes news, he's usually right.

This isn't a case of King's word being different from Holmgren's. It's a case of perception. What likely happened:

STL says make your best offer. This is it.

CLE offers 3 1's. WAS offers 3 1's and a 2 (convenient, isn't it? Wonder if they had any inside knowledge about Cleveland's offer...).

STL takes the WAS package.

CLE calls back and says "We can beat that." STL says "No, we already sold the pick." (stupid tactics, but whatever). They don't go back on their word b/c Fisher & Shanny are buds.

CLE stomps feet and feels bitter. They feel their 3 1's are just as good as the Skins' package b/c the 4 is worth more than the 6 (it would take at least a 2nd rounder to move from 6 to 4), which is debatable but doesn't matter b/c STL didn't think so. Holmgren says as much in his call today, since Holmy is nothing if not easy to anger (and certainly seems like a grudge-holder). He probably believes what he says, the way Wade Phillips still feels that the Music City Miracle was a forward pass and the way that Browns fans feel that Karliss missed the kick.

Any future calls from STL to CLE will be met with a "Go Fuck Yourself."

Like I've said before, it's hard to fault the FO if this is the case (and it sounds more and more like it was). Regardless, they didn't get it done, so it's also hard to find them faultless.

This isn't a case of King's word being different from Holmgren's. It's a case of perception. What likely happened:

STL says make your best offer. This is it.

CLE offers 3 1's. WAS offers 3 1's and a 2 (convenient, isn't it? Wonder if they had any inside knowledge about Cleveland's offer...).

STL takes the WAS package.

CLE calls back and says "We can beat that." STL says "No, we already sold the pick." (stupid tactics, but whatever). They don't go back on their word b/c Fisher & Shanny are buds.

CLE stomps feet and feels bitter. They feel their 3 1's are just as good as the Skins' package b/c the 4 is worth more than the 6 (it would take at least a 2nd rounder to move from 6 to 4), which is debatable but doesn't matter b/c STL didn't think so. Holmgren says as much in his call today, since Holmy is nothing if not easy to anger (and certainly seems like a grudge-holder). He probably believes what he says, the way Wade Phillips still feels that the Music City Miracle was a forward pass and the way that Browns fans feel that Karliss missed the kick.

Any future calls from STL to CLE will be met with a "Go Fuck Yourself."

Like I've said before, it's hard to fault the FO if this is the case (and it sounds more and more like it was). Regardless, they didn't get it done, so it's also hard to find them faultless.

But IFFFF King is right, the Browns KNEW, in advance, it was a one-time "blind bid." Thinking they could still match after the offers, irregardless of the rules the Rams had put in place, is either disingenuous BS or stupidity. Either way, they either f'ed up on this or, if you opposed doing it altogether, were lucky to get outbid. But it IS on them.

CleSportsTruth wrote:But IFFFF King is right, the Browns KNEW, in advance, it was a one-time "blind bid." Thinking they could still match after the offers, irregardless of the rules the Rams had put in place, is either disingenuous BS or stupidity. Either way, they either f'ed up on this or, if you opposed doing it altogether, were lucky to get outbid. But it IS on them.

What, you think that a team taking an offer after they said "No more offers" has never happened before?

Of course you call them and try to trump the winning bid. The worst that can happen is they say No. NOT CALLING is stupidity.

And I agree it is on them, even if they got somewhat fucked in this b/c STL does things in a fucked up way. If you're willing to get it done, then you have to make sure it happens, otherwise you blew it.

This isn't a case of King's word being different from Holmgren's. It's a case of perception. What likely happened:

STL says make your best offer. This is it.

CLE offers 3 1's. WAS offers 3 1's and a 2 (convenient, isn't it? Wonder if they had any inside knowledge about Cleveland's offer...).

STL takes the WAS package.

CLE calls back and says "We can beat that." STL says "No, we already sold the pick." (stupid tactics, but whatever). They don't go back on their word b/c Fisher & Shanny are buds.

CLE stomps feet and feels bitter. They feel their 3 1's are just as good as the Skins' package b/c the 4 is worth more than the 6 (it would take at least a 2nd rounder to move from 6 to 4), which is debatable but doesn't matter b/c STL didn't think so. Holmgren says as much in his call today, since Holmy is nothing if not easy to anger (and certainly seems like a grudge-holder). He probably believes what he says, the way Wade Phillips still feels that the Music City Miracle was a forward pass and the way that Browns fans feel that Karliss missed the kick.

Any future calls from STL to CLE will be met with a "Go Fuck Yourself."

Like I've said before, it's hard to fault the FO if this is the case (and it sounds more and more like it was). Regardless, they didn't get it done, so it's also hard to find them faultless.

But IFFFF King is right, the Browns KNEW, in advance, it was a one-time "blind bid." Thinking they could still match after the offers, irregardless of the rules the Rams had put in place, is either disingenuous BS or stupidity. Either way, they either f'ed up on this or, if you opposed doing it altogether, were lucky to get outbid. But it IS on them.

What, you think that a team taking an offer after they said "No more offers" has never happened before?

Of course you call them and try to trump the winning bid. The worst that can happen is they say No. NOT CALLING is stupidity.

And I agree it is on them, even if they got somewhat fucked in this b/c STL does things in a fucked up way. If you're willing to get it done, then you have to make sure it happens, otherwise you blew it.

This isn't a case of King's word being different from Holmgren's. It's a case of perception. What likely happened:

STL says make your best offer. This is it.

CLE offers 3 1's. WAS offers 3 1's and a 2 (convenient, isn't it? Wonder if they had any inside knowledge about Cleveland's offer...).

STL takes the WAS package.

CLE calls back and says "We can beat that." STL says "No, we already sold the pick." (stupid tactics, but whatever). They don't go back on their word b/c Fisher & Shanny are buds.

CLE stomps feet and feels bitter. They feel their 3 1's are just as good as the Skins' package b/c the 4 is worth more than the 6 (it would take at least a 2nd rounder to move from 6 to 4), which is debatable but doesn't matter b/c STL didn't think so. Holmgren says as much in his call today, since Holmy is nothing if not easy to anger (and certainly seems like a grudge-holder). He probably believes what he says, the way Wade Phillips still feels that the Music City Miracle was a forward pass and the way that Browns fans feel that Karliss missed the kick.

Any future calls from STL to CLE will be met with a "Go Fuck Yourself."

Like I've said before, it's hard to fault the FO if this is the case (and it sounds more and more like it was). Regardless, they didn't get it done, so it's also hard to find them faultless.

But IFFFF King is right, the Browns KNEW, in advance, it was a one-time "blind bid." Thinking they could still match after the offers, irregardless of the rules the Rams had put in place, is either disingenuous BS or stupidity. Either way, they either f'ed up on this or, if you opposed doing it altogether, were lucky to get outbid. But it IS on them.

What, you think that a team taking an offer after they said "No more offers" has never happened before?

Of course you call them and try to trump the winning bid. The worst that can happen is they say No. NOT CALLING is stupidity.

And I agree it is on them, even if they got somewhat fucked in this b/c STL does things in a fucked up way. If you're willing to get it done, then you have to make sure it happens, otherwise you blew it.

CleSportsTruth wrote:^Not saying "don't call," but expecting a different result is a bit foolish. Bitching about it afterwards is whiny pettiness, IMO.

Expecting an NFL team to take a worse offer is quite a bit more foolish. I don't see how Heckgrin can really be blamed for STL making a horrible business decision and WSH just happening to barely beat our blind offer. That's stacking the deck against us pretty hard.

CleSportsTruth wrote:^Not saying "don't call," but expecting a different result is a bit foolish. Bitching about it afterwards is whiny pettiness, IMO.

Expecting an NFL team to take a worse offer is quite a bit more foolish. I don't see how Heckgrin can really be blamed for STL making a horrible business decision and WSH just happening to barely beat our blind offer. That's stacking the deck against us pretty hard.

Stop the excuse-mongering! The rules, even if they were dumb for StL, applied to BOTH TEAMS! We throw in the 37 pick in the bid, and we'd have our QB today.

I'm reading a lot of "Holgren fucked up" takes. Yeah, he really blew it. Should have known better. Should have known that 3 first rounds picks, which is more than anyone has traded ever, wouldn't be enough. What a sap.

He should have known if he would have just added that second round pick he would have won. We all knew that right? He just blew it. Hes incompetent.

Because we all know that, had Holmgren offered 3 firsts and a second, and made that trade, every Cleveland GM with enough aptitude to work a Speak and Spell wouldn't have blowup the ether with their "WHY DID HOLMGREN GIVE THEM SO MUCH!?!? WHY IS HE SUCH AN IDIOT!!?? HES THE WORST EVER AT FOOTBALLIN'!!"

Never mind that a week ago the threads were overrun with takes whether it would really take both the #22 and #37 picks to move up or if just one of those would be enough.

Fast forward a couple days and everyone knew that 3 firsts would fall short.

motherscratcher wrote:I'm reading a lot of "Holgren fucked up" takes. Yeah, he really blew it. Should have known better. Should have known that 3 first rounds picks, which is more than anyone has traded ever, wouldn't be enough. What a sap.

He should have known if he would have just added that second round pick he would have won. We all knew that right? He just blew it. Hes incompetent.

Because we all know that, had Holmgren offered 3 firsts and a second, and made that trade, every Cleveland GM with enough aptitude to work a Speak and Spell wouldn't have blowup the ether with their "WHY DID HOLMGREN GIVE THEM SO MUCH!?!? WHY IS HE SUCH AN IDIOT!!?? HES THE WORST EVER AT FOOTBALLIN'!!"

Never mind that a week ago the threads were overrun with takes whether it would really take both the #22 and #37 picks to move up or if just one of those would be enough.

Fast forward a couple days and everyone knew that 3 firsts would fall short.

I bet Ram fan is going to be pissed to find out they accepted a deal that was not as good as they could get because they had a buddy on the other line.

Yes, in a $50 side deal, I can see it coming down to friends. In the multi billion dollar world of the NFL, no freaking way. Mike is telling season ticket holders what he needs to for them to buy more tickets.

of course, CDT and the guys from the Red Flag Coalition were co-writers in it.

Swerb wrote:Go start a blog if you want to tell the world your incomprehendible ramblings.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.

motherscratcher wrote:I'm reading a lot of "Holgren fucked up" takes. Yeah, he really blew it. Should have known better. Should have known that 3 first rounds picks, which is more than anyone has traded ever, wouldn't be enough. What a sap.

He should have known if he would have just added that second round pick he would have won. We all knew that right? He just blew it. Hes incompetent.

Because we all know that, had Holmgren offered 3 firsts and a second, and made that trade, every Cleveland GM with enough aptitude to work a Speak and Spell wouldn't have blowup the ether with their "WHY DID HOLMGREN GIVE THEM SO MUCH!?!? WHY IS HE SUCH AN IDIOT!!?? HES THE WORST EVER AT FOOTBALLIN'!!"

Never mind that a week ago the threads were overrun with takes whether it would really take both the #22 and #37 picks to move up or if just one of those would be enough.

Fast forward a couple days and everyone knew that 3 firsts would fall short.

Holmgren blew it. I guess.

Quit trying to get on the "Holmgren isn't perfect, but he's trying" bandwagon. He sucks and he's fat. The end.

motherscratcher wrote:I'm reading a lot of "Holgren fucked up" takes. Yeah, he really blew it. Should have known better. Should have known that 3 first rounds picks, which is more than anyone has traded ever, wouldn't be enough. What a sap.

He should have known if he would have just added that second round pick he would have won. We all knew that right? He just blew it. Hes incompetent.

Because we all know that, had Holmgren offered 3 firsts and a second, and made that trade, every Cleveland GM with enough aptitude to work a Speak and Spell wouldn't have blowup the ether with their "WHY DID HOLMGREN GIVE THEM SO MUCH!?!? WHY IS HE SUCH AN IDIOT!!?? HES THE WORST EVER AT FOOTBALLIN'!!"

Never mind that a week ago the threads were overrun with takes whether it would really take both the #22 and #37 picks to move up or if just one of those would be enough.

Fast forward a couple days and everyone knew that 3 firsts would fall short.

Holmgren blew it. I guess.

The words that you say make much sense.

They will be small consolation if the Browns again suck and RG3 looks awesome. History won't remember how it happened, just that WASH has RG3 and the Browns have Colt McCoy. Holmgren is probably only about 10% to blame, but it's the size of the error that will determine how this is remembered. The Captain of the Titanic was probably on about 10% to blame too, but we know how that ended.

Hikohadon wrote:They will be small consolation if the Browns again suck and RG3 looks awesome. History won't remember how it happened, just that WASH has RG3 and the Browns have Colt McCoy. Holmgren is probably only about 10% to blame, but it's the size of the error that will determine how this is remembered. The Captain of the Titanic was probably on about 10% to blame too, but we know how that ended.

You're right. And we don't have to wait for how it turns out because already IS remembered that way.

I guess it comes down to how many people are interested in being honest about it and admitting that, given the information at hand, H&H made a good offer that most people would have thought was more than enough, and a lot of people would have been pissed about overpaying. People would have to admit that maybe in this case, even if it turned out shitty for us, we shouldn't be pissed at Holmgren because he played that hand pretty well and still lost.