posted at 4:41 pm on August 20, 2014 by Allahpundit

The NYT reported this morning that law-enforcement sources say Wilson suffered an unspecified injury during his altercation with Brown. Fox News’s source is more specific: It was indeed an eye socket fracture, as Jim Hoft claimed yesterday.

Why’d it take 11 days for this to leak? No idea, but the conspicuous delay won’t do the cops any favors in getting skeptics to believe it. Nor, of course, will that cellphone video showing Wilson at the scene right after the shooting, in no obvious distress from having reportedly been beaten “severely.”

Darren Wilson, the Ferguson, Mo., police officer whose fatal shooting of Michael Brown touched off more than a week of demonstrations, suffered severe facial injuries, including an orbital (eye socket) fracture, and was nearly beaten unconscious by Brown moments before firing his gun, a source close to the department’s top brass told FoxNews.com.

“The Assistant (Police) Chief took him to the hospital, his face all swollen on one side,” said the insider. “He was beaten very severely.”…

“They ignored him and the officer started to get out of the car to tell them to move,” the source said. “They shoved him right back in, that’s when Michael Brown leans in and starts beating Officer Wilson in the head and the face.

The source claims that there is “solid proof” that there was a struggle between Brown and Wilson for the policeman’s firearm, resulting in the gun going off – although it still remains unclear at this stage who pulled the trigger. Brown started to walk away according to the account, prompting Wilson to draw his gun and order him to freeze. Brown, the source said, raised his hands in the air, and turned around saying, “What, you’re going to shoot me?”

So there’s a theory that has Brown with his hands raised but not exactly in surrender mode. This account also very closely tracks the story “Josie” told Dana Loesch last week about what happened between Wilson and Brown, although Josie didn’t claim that Brown had badly injured Wilson, just that he had punched him. There’s something missing from this account too: The Times claims that “many” witnesses have told the police that Wilson fired at Brown while he was running away after the altercation, with his back to Wilson. (I’ve noticed that detail in some of the eyewitness accounts myself.) Was Wilson allowed to use deadly force to stop a suspect who’d just assaulted him but who was attempting to leave the scene and not apparently armed? Here’s what Missouri law says. Click the image to enlarge:

That might earn him an acquittal, but a statute that authorizes shooting people in the back to keep them from running away isn’t a statute that’s going to hold up well among the public once the media spotlight is on it.

Meanwhile, two vids that are making the rounds will show you what’s been happening in Ferguson over the past 24 hours. The first one shows an officer pointing his weapon at protesters and telling them “I will f***ing kill you– get back!” even though the guy with the camera claims he has his hands up. When the officer is asked for his name, he replies, “Go f*** yourself.” (Er, content warning on the clip, needless to say.) The second is of a woman turning out at a Ferguson protest to support Darren Wilson. We need to wait for all of the facts, she says, without explaining why she’d then take one side over the other before we have them. Erick Erickson wrote a few days ago that “Ferguson is not binary,” i.e. that it’s possible to be a law-and-order conservative who thinks Wilson is innocent until proven guilty while also thinking that Ferguson police are too aggressive and overly militarized. Ferguson shouldn’t be binary, I’d agree, but I’d bet some chunk of readers will watch the first clip and assume that there must, simply must, have been some threat to the officer off-camera to get him to behave that way, just as another chunk will watch the second clip and assume, Jay Nixon style, that this corrupt woman’s sticking up for a man who is, must, and can only be guilty of murder. Oh well.

Blowback

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Did you see anyone that was doing anything other than yelling? His 1st line supervisor realized he was out of line and pulled him away.

Just because that cop was a jerk doesn’t change my opinion that most of people engaging in the protests/riots are idiots. Even idiots are entitled to not having loaded weapons pointed at them when they are technically peaceably assembling.

If the cops felt the crown was out of control, they needed to have a platoon on standby, or used riot tactics, which don’t include deadly force under most circumstances.

When I was at Ft. Meyer, VA, our primary mission was funeral support in Arlington Nat’l Cemetery. Our secondary mission was domestic defense of Washington D.C. We regularly trained, when our company wasn’t performing funeral duties, with riot gear, batons, and shields. I probably have more training in riot control tactics than the average police officer. You never get that close to a crowd with a loaded weapon, or get outside of 3 feet from the guy next to you, or you are likely to die if the crowd suddenly turns on you.

I can’t even begin to imagine the stress the Ferguson PD has been under after 11 days of riots, media lynching and now Holder and 40 FBI agents breathing down their necks. I just hope none of them make a more serious mistake.

talkingpoints on August 20, 2014 at 8:50 PM

Still no excuse. If this is the best that officer can act under stress, he needs remedial training, and lots of it. He wasn’t even from Ferguson, he was from nearby St. Ann on loan.

Would you expect to be excused for showing a group of non-violent people how shiny your barrel riflings are while locked and cocked under stress?

UnstChem on August 20, 2014 at 9:50 PM

I’m not trying to excuse him. I’m pointing out that the media, race baiters and hostile gvt are inflaming an already difficult situation. Given my temper, I probably would have totally lost it by now, which is one of several reasons I do not own a gun. I was expressing relief that no officers have started shooting yet, despite the incredibly stressful situation that exists and hope that none do in the future. Sorry if I wasn’t clear.

God bless Officer Darren Wilson and his family. I just saw a picture of him on Hannity. Pray for him and his family.
Just watched David Webb interviewing in Ferguson.
So, the goal post has been moved from #HandsupDontshoot to #SixshotsNO?
That narrative has turned to dust.

I’m not trying to excuse him. I’m pointing out that the media, race baiters and hostile gvt are inflaming an already difficult situation. Given my temper, I probably would have totally lost it by now, which is one of several reasons I do not own a gun. I was expressing relief that no officers have started shooting yet, despite the incredibly stressful situation that exists and hope that none do in the future. Sorry if I wasn’t clear.

talkingpoints on August 20, 2014 at 10:39 PM

Gotcha … thanks for clarifying. It really sucks that most tone is lost in written form.

I do give the local city authorities including the police chief some slack. They were ambushed by a social media tidal wave they simply were not prepared to handle. Note to small city administrations–have a crisis management PR firm on speed dial soon.

HatfieldMcCoy on August 20, 2014 at 9:22 PM

They’ve only had 18 homicides total since 2000. They are in way over their heads. This whole thing is a tragic CF on so many levels and the appalling racebaiters and the majority of the media continue to fan the flames.

Meanwhile, Brown made a few really stupid mistakes and paid with his life, Wilson was probably trying to do the right thing, following procedure, now his life is ruined, Ferguson is trashed, a bunch of businesses are destroyed and the Ferguson PD’s reputation is tarnished forever, for no good reason.

And the media, the racebaiters and the protesters go on and on and on about the war on young black men, all of which is totally irrelevant. There is nothing whatsoever to suggest that race played a role in the shooting. If Brown had been a 6’4″, 300 lb stoned white kid that robbed a store and assaulted a cop, then charged the cop, this would have ended exactly the same way.

The war on young black men isn’t from the police, it’s from other black men. This whole thing started as a bunch of giant lies from Johnson, Sharpton and the media and now look at the damage.

So, the goal post has been moved from #HandsupDontshoot to #SixshotsNO?
That narrative has turned to dust.

HornetSting on August 20, 2014 at 10:39 PM

And we have also blown by the walking innnocently down the street minding our own business and the shot in the back and the cop stood over him while he was on the ground and kept shooting him in the back.

Now it seems the meme is police shouldn’t be allowed to have guns and shouldn’t be allowed to fire at people who physically attack them because racism.

So, the goal post has been moved from #HandsupDontshoot to #SixshotsNO?
That narrative has turned to dust.

HornetSting on August 20, 2014 at 10:39 PM

And we have also blown by the walking innnocently down the street minding our own business and the shot in the back and the cop stood over him while he was on the ground and kept shooting him in the back.

Now it seems the meme is police shouldn’t be allowed to have guns and shouldn’t be allowed to fire at people who physically attack them because racism.

talkingpoints on August 20, 2014 at 10:58 PM

Oh, I stepped into the fray Saturday until late Monday….funny, the people saying all that are the ones who cannot act right, hence needing the police and the guns. Funny that, huh?

On sites like where people who call themselves “conservatives” like to comment, there is like a reflex to ALWAYS say the black kid deserved to die.
coolrepublica on August 20, 2014 at 6:57 PM

You’re an idiot who doesn’t pay attention.
What we always say is the criminal who gets killed while trying to rob, rape, burglarize, kill, or otherwise attack someone else deserves to die – no matter what color he/she is.
The black guy who was my college roommate and best man at my wedding is always welcome in my home. My sons’ black and hispanic friends are always welcome in my home.
But ANYONE of ANY color who breaks into my home uninvited, or attacks or attempts to rob me or my family anywhere, or attacks or attmpts to rob ANYONE in my presence anywhere, will be shot dead – because they deserve it.

Gentle Giant Angel Snowflake Brown got what he asked for and deserved.(period)

If Michael Brown had been shot by another black male, there would be no protest by the black community. Fewer than 100 black men were killed by cops (black and white cops) last year and this number includes armed black men. Yet, during that same period, over 10,000 blacks were killed by other blacks.

There’s something wrong with this picture. Blacks are protesting and rioting because – they say – innocent black kids are being gunned down by racist white cops. Is it OK, in the minds of blacks for a black man to kill their kids, but the kid is somehow more dead if he’s killed by a white cop? Or is the problem that the cop is white?

It’s difficult to fathom that blacks have fought so hard against racism, only to become the most racist people in the country.

Thank you! The bullet in the car, seemed to me at least as important as whether Wilson’s eye socket was broken. Because going for the gun is so much more serious than even slamming the door shut, or punching him.

Johnson I think is the name of the State Patrolmen who was put in charge.

So this is a good source. And it sounds like they are going to have a broken eye socket and a bullet inside the patrol car to prove who was telling the truth.

After the kid went for the gun… I think the officer had every right to assume the worst.

Oh! Did anyone else say, “If the cop was hit, you must aquit?” I didn’t make that up, someone at Hot Air did. (Hat tip person who I am too lazy to go through comments to find your name.)

Thank you! The bullet in the car, seemed to me at least as important as whether Wilson’s eye socket was broken. Because going for the gun is so much more serious than even slamming the door shut, or punching him.

Johnson I think is the name of the State Patrolmen who was put in charge.

So this is a good source. And it sounds like they are going to have a broken eye socket and a bullet inside the patrol car to prove who was telling the truth.

After the kid went for the gun… I think the officer had every right to assume the worst.

Oh! Did anyone else say, “If the cop was hit, you must aquit?” I didn’t make that up, someone at Hot Air did. (Hat tip person who I am too lazy to go through comments to find your name.)

petunia on August 20, 2014 at 11:38 PM

If Mike Brown went for his gun, that’s a deadly force situation right there. Game over.
The facts have destroyed the narrative, but facts don’t matter to those still on the street.
The chronically aggrieved who are being dropped by the hundreds by their own in Chicago, will hang on to this as long as possible. It’s fifteen minutes of fame for those protesting and shakedown cash like Trayvon’s family got for Ben Crump.
Despite the CRA of 1964, Affirmative Action, quotas/preferential treatment for education, living through two terms of the most impotent, failure of a president elected not for the content of his character, but for the color of his skin, we are livin’ like it’s 1964.

I’m with Erickson on the non-binary stuff, but AP, anyone who’s been in a fight or accident can attest, adrenaline is great stuff until it wears off. Initially, you think, ‘hey, that wasn’t so bad, I feel fine and walk off’, a bit later when when the nerves calm, the adrenaline tapers, and swelling begins you start realize you’re in pain and it’s getting worse.

God bless Officer Darren Wilson and his family. I just saw a picture of him on Hannity. Pray for him and his family.

HornetSting on August 20, 2014 at 10:39 PM

Yes indeed. I’ll be looking at the site for the fund set up for him. Have a good commission check coming in and part of that will go for support.

katy the mean old lady on August 21, 2014 at 12:13 AM

What I have read from AP, I wouldn’t hold my breath. He’s gone full. But, I am sure one of the crafty smart posters here will find a place for us to show our support.
Been loving your snark, lady. And, your ironclad support. :)

What I have read from AP, I wouldn’t hold my breath. He’s gone full. But, I am sure one of the crafty smart posters here will find a place for us to show our support.
Been loving your snark, lady. And, your ironclad support. :)

HornetSting on August 21, 2014 at 12:16 AM

Thanks, darlin’! My feathers have gone from ruffles to full blown 1970 Afro.

Well God bless you! I promise to sing at your funeral if you are ever placed in a position when a 290 pound 6’4 individual comes back at you after severely beating you, tried to shoot you, walked away, heard you yell freeze, stop, POLICE or whatever and then decided to turn around with his hands raised in the air, threatening you and finishing the job!

Black men use it to express the hard life in the streets of their country.

It is no different than saying motorboating in the south. black people will have no idea of what you are talking about, a redneck will surely know.

coolrepublica on August 20, 2014 at 5:45 PM

What hard life? What total rubbish. The US is probably the best place on earth to be poor and black. You have access to everything. Free education till 18. More or less free after 18. Welfare. Jobs. Despite current problems, the US still has the most jobs on the planet, both entry level and well paying. Try being poor and black in Nigeria ( or assaulting a cop), talk about first world problems. But guess what, you have to get off your lazy backside and work. I am sick and tired of hearing the welfare queen woe is to me narrative, white or black, or green with pink spots. Why do you think all those illegals want to come to the US?

And yes, in the US you will end up suiciding by cop, hopefully before killing other people. Here in Europe, they will let you terrorize your also poor ( poorer in fact because your neighboors work hard, but your lifestyle allows you flatscreen tvs etc) ad infinitum.

Nor, of course, will that cellphone video showing Wilson at the scene right after the shooting, in no obvious distress from having reportedly been beaten “severely.”

Jeez this is dumb.

Allahpundit, I’ll bet you $1,000.00 that officer in the video isn’t Darren Wilson.

Baggi on August 21, 2014 at 12:17 AM

I’ll back that action, too.

AP just jumped to conclusions as usual and will be made to look foolish again.

~

The case officer’s first action in response to the shooting would have been to take Wilson’s gun and get him medical attention for his injuries – which were, in fact, mentioned by Jackson in a press conference over a week ago on August 13 (he didn’t mention the fracture, but said the officer had been struck and his face was swollen and he had been sent to the hospital) – so AP is wrong about that, too.

NO WAY would the officer involved in the shooting be allowed anywhere near the deceased, or anywhere else at the crime scene. That’s just basic procedure.

~~

But AP claims not only to be able to see the cop in that fuzzy photo well enough to identify him as Wilson, but to comment on the state of his face. Sharp eyes, there – or vivid imagination.

More likely he just made it up because it supports his initial position.

I was just sitting there and suddenly.. like out of nowhere.. I get this thought of how all of these events could be used to replace the local police with the shiny new friendly not racist ever and always professional loyal to Obama National Police Force.

I get these crazy thoughts sometimes. They just come out of nowhere. It’ll never happen.

The Times claims that “many” witnesses have told the police that Wilson fired at Brown while he was running away after the altercation, with his back to Wilson. (I’ve noticed that detail in some of the eyewitness accounts myself.) Was Wilson allowed to use deadly force to stop a suspect who’d just assaulted him but who was attempting to leave the scene and not apparently armed?

Normally, I agree with most of what Allahpundit writes, but this is just stupid. The autopsy has shown that there were NO entry wounds in the back and this has been public knowledge for a week.

Let someone beat you half to death then charge at you to beat you more. if you have a weapon and don’t unload the freaking magazine on him then you’re either physically incapable of doing it or blatantly stupid. No one shot this bum when he was trying to give up or run away . . . the cop was desperately trying to save his own life. Enough of this crap.

Normally, I agree with most of what Allahpundit writes, but this is just stupid. The autopsy has shown that there were NO entry wounds in the back and this has been public knowledge for a week.

Saverio on August 21, 2014 at 8:43 AM

A few of the witness reports from identified witnesses say that Brown started running/moving away, was fired at (and apparently missed) and turned around.

So, the questions is – assuming the report is true that Brown assaulted Officer Wilson – if those witness statements are correct and Brown had stopped his assault and began to leave the scene – was it justified for Wilson to fire on Brown at that point? I honestly don’t know the answer to that. I know that assaulting a police officer is very bad and cannot be condoned in any fashion, but I don’t know if deadly force is justifiable if the threat is over and the perpetrator is leaving. Of course, if Officer Wilson was truly “badly beaten” it may be that he did not realize Brown was leaving and believed he was still in danger. But, assuming for this question that Officer Wilson recognized that Brown was leaving and the assault was over – at that point is deadly force justified?

Also, I caution everyone here that has jumped on this Fox News report that Wilson was beaten that it is not verified yet. People are jumping on this and accepting the unverified “reports” as fact, when nothing official has been said and nothing has been proven.

We should wait until we have some solid proof of things before making judgment either way. I’m willing to give Officer Wilson the benefit of the doubt, but I’m not willing to make up my mind before we see actual verifiable (as verifiable as possible anyhow) facts.

this Fox News report may turn out to be true, but it may turn out to be unsupported. But, we don’t want to be like the left and turn unverified reports that may later turn out to be untrue as established fact from which we will never retreat.

Liberals and the Democrat Party have done profound harm to blacks in this country.

Liberals are shallow nitwits who can’t seem to grasp/accept the concept that the welfare state/affirmative action has ruined black culture and society. Liberals are true racists who feel that blacks are incapable of making it on their own without state intervention. Libs also support the concept of the welfare state because it assuages their guilt feelings and makes them feel all warm and fuzzy inside as if they themselves are doing something nice for “those poor blacks”. I suspect that many of the white protestors in Ferguson are these imbecile libs.
I despise libs for their smarmy stupidity and complete lack of self insight.

To the Democrat Party, blacks are just slaves on their voter plantation. To Party Democrats, the destruction wrought on blacks by their policies is simply the price of them staying in power. In contrast to the sheep-like stupidity of the garden variety lib, these Democrat politicians know precisely what the score is and are therefore nothing short of evil.

Also, I caution everyone here that has jumped on this Fox News report that Wilson was beaten that it is not verified yet. People are jumping on this and accepting the unverified “reports” as fact, when nothing official has been said and nothing has been proven.

Monkeytoe on August 21, 2014 at 9:04 AM/blockquote>Sure, but just the fact that you said this, proves that you take it to have some important implication about the events. Which means we can speculate about what it means if it’s true.

I for one feel no need to dumb down my analysis for the sake of onlooking libs and lofos who might misunderstand how invested I am in any particular report of fact.

But this uprising was spurred by reports of “witnesses” that Brown was just gunned down from the back, or with his hands in the air. Those weren’t final either. In that sense, we don’t know anything with finality (and just like the Zimmerman case, probably never will).

If I were the defense, I would get any of the first eye-witnesses to tell me whether or not they could have mistaken a flinch from Brown at a warning shot as what took place when they say he was shot in the back. Chances are they can’t. Also, I would try to bring up the fact that some of the people say that they thought that Wilson was missing Brown because Brown kept on coming. Eyewitnesses like this are nice for establishing what the events might have looked like, but bad to establish just exactly what happened.

I don’t see a case for the prosecution outside of this. Also, even if the amateur specialist that the Browns brought in was right , a shot that “might have” entered from the rear, is still a reasonable doubt that it all the shots were from the front.

But even if that forensic evidence were to vanish, and we don’t know, back or front, it’s not the prosecution proving beyond reasonable doubt that they entered from the back. So the report we saw will have to be reversed .

So, the questions is – assuming the report is true that Brown assaulted Officer Wilson – if those witness statements are correct and Brown had stopped his assault and began to leave the scene – was it justified for Wilson to fire on Brown at that point? I honestly don’t know the answer to that. I know that assaulting a police officer is very bad and cannot be condoned in any fashion, but I don’t know if deadly force is justifiable if the threat is over and the perpetrator is leaving. Of course, if Officer Wilson was truly “badly beaten” it may be that he did not realize Brown was leaving and believed he was still in danger. But, assuming for this question that Officer Wilson recognized that Brown was leaving and the assault was over – at that point is deadly force justified?

Monkeytoe on August 21, 2014 at 9:04 AM

No, it wasn’t justified. Wilson could have let Brown go and had him arrested later. He escalated the issue by shooting at him.

Also, I caution everyone here that has jumped on this Fox News report that Wilson was beaten that it is not verified yet. People are jumping on this and accepting the unverified “reports” as fact, when nothing official has been said and nothing has been proven.

We should wait until we have some solid proof of things before making judgment either way.

Monkeytoe on August 21, 2014 at 9:04 AM

I agree, but I don’t give Wilson the benefit of the doubt because of the Ferguson PD history of violent racist abuse against citizens and their lies and conspiracy to cover it up, and their efforts to slander Brown in this case. They have no credibility. In that way they are a typical amerikan PD.

I agree, but I don’t give Wilson the benefit of the doubt because of the Ferguson PD history of violent racist abuse against citizens and their lies and conspiracy to cover it up, and their efforts to slander Brown in this case. They have no credibility. In that way they are a typical amerikan PD.

This will all be settled when the medical evidence of Wilson’s condition is presented before the grand jury. If he was hit as it is being suggested, I doubt they will indict him. No way, no matter what the circumstances, they would indict if Brown punched him and it became an altercation in his car. No way. Why? Because the prosecutor won’t have anything to convict him on when the officer was found having to protect himself from a very large man under the influence of drugs.

No, it wasn’t justified. Wilson could have let Brown go and had him arrested later. He escalated the issue by shooting at him.

earlgrey on August 21, 2014 at 10:37 AM

Are you high? When have you ever known a police officer let someone go so they could arrest them later? If that were the case police would never have a car chase after someone breaking the law tried to flee in their car. They would simply let them go and wait for them to come home.

You are trying to put Wilson into the perfect world you want but it simply doesn’t exist. And I’ll bet you if you had been Wilson you also would have struggled with doing your duty as a police office and hoping Brown didn’t kill you in the time frame of a few seconds.

Human beings aren’t perfect. Wilson had a job to do and Brown could have simply gotten out of the middle of the street, and then this situation would have never happened. It’s that simple.

I don’t give Wilson the benefit of the doubt because of the Ferguson PD history of violent racist abuse against citizens and their lies and conspiracy to cover it up, and their efforts to slander Brown in this case. They have no credibility. In that way they are a typical amerikan PD.

tea bag on August 21, 2014 at 10:37 AM

Wow, how Kute! amerikan! KOS 101.

F-

Now, to your claim about the Ferguson PD “history of violent racist abuse against citizens”…can you prove your Lie with credible, multi-sourced cites?

The office of Missouri’s attorney general concluded in an annual report last year that Ferguson police were twice as likely to arrest African Americans during traffic stops as they were whites.

That is the best the WaPo could find about the Ferguson PD “history of violent racist abuse against citizens”. They even admitted their failure by trying to include the rest of St. Louis County in their “calculations”.

But at least here on Planet Earth, getting arrested during a traffic stop is NOT “violent racist abuse”, because there is no “violence” involved unless the one being arrested decides to fight back.

Sorry, tea bag, but you really need to have Soros feed you better material.

No, it wasn’t justified. Wilson could have let Brown go and had him arrested later. He escalated the issue by shooting at him.

earlgrey on August 21, 2014 at 10:37 AM

Are you high? When have you ever known a police officer let someone go so they could arrest them later? If that were the case police would never have a car chase after someone breaking the law tried to flee in their car. They would simply let them go and wait for them to come home.

Deckard BR on August 21, 2014 at 11:05 AM

Let’s see – so the violent 300 black guy should just be let go because he punched a cop – because we don’t want to escalate things? So he’s free to go rob, assault and possibly kill more people in the meantime?
And what should the cops do if he attacks another cop when they “had him arrested later”? Just let him go again and arrest him later? And how many times do we repeat this cycle before we “escalate” the situation and finally get this thug off the streets?

“…typical amerikan PD”. Right; even if there wasn’t the mountain of your completely debunked ravings for all to behold and to marvel at the sheer immensity of your inanity, that alone shredded any vestige, no matter how minute, of credibility you might have had.

Wilson had a job to do and Brown could have simply gotten out of the middle of the street, and then this situation would have never happened. It’s that simple.

Deckard BR on August 21, 2014 at 11:05 AM

No no no no no – waaaaaay too simple. There just HAS to be a more complicated solution to this….

Reminds me of an old Bloom County cartoon – Opus was doing fad diets and someone else said “how about if you just eat less and exercise more?” – “no no no – not good enough – maybe the broccoli diet, or….”

If he didn’t steal those cigars, and walked on the sidewalk, n o cops would have ever had a reason to talk to him, or shoot him.
What a concept…..

I actually have a decent understanding of policing. And, despite what you think you have learned from the movies, the police rarely shoot at fleeing people. Even violent fleeing people. It’s just not usually done. There may be exceptions allowing for it, but simply saying “hey, that person is a suspect and is violent, I’m going to shoot him as he tries to get away” is not “proper policing”. I’m not saying that is what happened here. Which is why I asked my question as a hypothetical (gee- did you notice that I phrased it as a hypothetical rather than arguing it was what happened here)?

So, my question stands. How about some reasoned analysis rather than snarky ignorance?

I agree, but I don’t give Wilson the benefit of the doubt because of the Ferguson PD history of violent racist abuse against citizens and their lies and conspiracy to cover it up, and their efforts to slander Brown in this case. They have no credibility. In that way they are a typical amerikan PD.

Well, Erick Erickson over at Red State and his mods. Streiff and BillS think all of you are nothing but a bunch of racists. Go over there and read Erickson’s latest bleeding heart crapola and mod Bills’ calling most who disagree with Erick’s and the other writers racist. Red State has been one of the worse to take the side of the race pimps and looters from the first min. this shooting took place. Many are leaving that faux conservative site for good. Red State sounds like what Haley Barbour and Thad Cothran did to McDaniel and conservatives in Ms. Pathetic.

Wilson didn’t have any backup. An arrest could have been made later with the appropriate number of cops. Instead Wilson chose to shoot at a fleeing suspect.

WhirledPeas on August 21, 2014 at 11:57 AM

Wilson did not even know about the theft. The Ferguson PD released the info to try and show what a punk Brown was after the fact. They claimed they were forced to do this after multiple FOI requests. There were NO FOI requests – that was a lie. In fact there was no call from the store about a robbery the cops forced the store owner (his words) to turn over the video tape so they could use it to taint everyone’s perception of Brown. And follow the link above you will see they have a history of doing this kind of crap because they are a thug PD. They do not deserve to be believed.

So, my question stands. How about some reasoned analysis rather than snarky ignorance?

Monkeytoe on August 21, 2014 at 11:41 AM

But ignorance is all you think we are capable of, since nobody knows what happened. And if you speak conditionally upon the evidence presented, then people like you think that’s a lock in to the “cop’s side” of things.

I actually have a decent understanding of policing. And, despite what you think you have learned from the movies, the police rarely shoot at fleeing people.

I actually have been reading rather closely to what people in law enforcement have been saying about altercations. Like, for example, 6 slugs is statistically low. If you shoot the leg, you can hit the femoral artery and the perp will bleed out before a medical team arrives, so “shooting the legs” is not the “non-lethal” method arm-chair policemen seem to think it is.

I admit my relative ignorance of police procedure, but I’ve been learning from the pros since this debate began. And I give the BoD to the men in the field, not the 6-is-too-many crowd or the should-have-shot-to-wound crowd.

But I do know this granted that the altercation which resulted in a discharged weapon was “over”, as you said, Brown is situationally not just a “suspect” but a bonafide fleeing violent felon fleeing the scene of the felony, assaulting a police officer.

And I doubt if he got his head slammed in the door or his clock punched by such an assailant, that the only reason he’s running after this guy is that he’s black. I mean, “heat of battle”, adrenaline, all that is more credible than “hey I’m going to shoot one of these guys and miss because they are black.”

Now, of course the idea that he missed them is conditional on the evidence not changing that all trajectories seem to indicate frontal entry. So, given that he can put 6 for 6 in a charging assailant (given that Brown was charging), given that he fired his gun to their backs and missed, whether or not he was on TV, they could have been warning shots.

So you want this guy to do a murder rap because chasing a fleeing violent felon is “not usually done”? That seems bizarre. By the way, I don’t know for sure that that is “not usually done”, I just heard it from you. If I shouldn’t invest too much in what I hear, that sounds like a good case there. But being that I can think in conditionals, if it is within the duty of a police officer to apprehend felons fleeing the scene of the crime, then the frequency doesn’t seem like a good reason to send a guy up for doing something within his discretion.

And then we get into, he should have had more witnesses–but don’t I always here from the same cop-haters that cops lie for each other all the time. So it seems not even groups of cops can be trusted where there is a death involved. I don’t see, given that could possibly the case, how it can be any more proper to always have cop company when confronting a felon. You puzzle that one out for me.

Respect – must be given AND earned before you get it!
Respect for Authority – punching / beating a COP is NOT this.

According to people in MO, Brown was not obligated to respect the policeman, thought he could do whatever he wanted, stole, assaulted the store owner, disobeyed an officer, attacked the officer, attempted to take his gun, mocked and attacked the officer AGAIN…and was gunned down. Te question is now WHY he was killed…is why it hadn’t happened before now, if this is who he was / what he did frequently!

But ignorance is all you think we are capable of, since nobody knows what happened. And if you speak conditionally upon the evidence presented, then people like you think that’s a lock in to the “cop’s side” of things.

Yes. That is exactly what I said. You are inventing my intentions out of thin air. All I did was caution against treating unverified reports as true, established fact. I did not say you couldn’t argue based on those things – but what I see happening his comments changing from arguing “if x is true, than y is true” to commenters simply asserting something along the line of “Brown had it coming because he viciously assaulted Officer Wilson”. comments of that nature are not making analysis based on various potential facts, it is morphing into accepting an unverified piece of information as a “known fact”. Again, that is what the left does. I was merely cautioning against it. And, you can take my caution or ignore it – don’t see why you get so personally insulted by it.

And, you aren’t speaking “critically of the evidence presented”. No evidence has been presented. This story (the original post) is about anonymous reports – not official comment, no medical records, no identified witnesses. That is exactly what I am talking about. You treat an unverified, anonymous report as “evidence presented” as if it is anything more than an unverified report at this stage. I simply warned not to invest too much into it until there is something more meaty.

So you want this guy to do a murder rap because chasing a fleeing violent felon is “not usually done”? That seems bizarre. By the way, I don’t know for sure that that is “not usually done”, I just heard it from you. If I shouldn’t invest too much in what I hear, that sounds like a good case there. But being that I can think in conditionals, if it is within the duty of a police officer to apprehend felons fleeing the scene of the crime, then the frequency doesn’t seem like a good reason to send a guy up for doing something within his discretion.

And then we get into, he should have had more witnesses–but don’t I always here from the same cop-haters that cops lie for each other all the time. So it seems not even groups of cops can be trusted where there is a death involved. I don’t see, given that could possibly the case, how it can be any more proper to always have cop company when confronting a felon. You puzzle that one out for me.

Axeman on August 21, 2014 at 1:10 PM

Where did I say I wanted Officer Wilson to take a murder rap? Or even imply it? I give Officer Wilson the benefit of the doubt and my guess is that he was in fact assaulted and there was justification for the shooting.

I merely asked a question. Because I know that we don’t have a lot of verified facts, I asked it as a hypothetical. And, of course, I asked the question because I don’t know the answer myself and figured maybe someone on here who is or was in LE would have a response.

You jump in and claim some kind of expertise, call me ignorant and then are away and running.

You keep inserting things as “known facts” that aren’t credibly verified at all yet and basing your very passionate argument on those facts.

I pointed out that this is what the left does, takes a meme that is not verified and runs with it and then invests so heavily in it they refuse to ever acknowledge it isn’t true when proven untrue. I just cautioned against doing that. To which, for some very odd reason, you take offense? that is very odd.

Look, you are of course free to write whatever you want and take whatever position you want. I, on the other hand, will try to be objective and wait to see what actual facts that can be proven show up.

My point in the original hypothetical is that it has always been my understanding that deadly force is only authorized to be used to stop a threat – not to stop a fleeing felon. I don’t know if my understanding is correct. I also don’t know if that would apply to someone who had just finished assaulting an officer and was then fleeing. Which is why I asked the question.

Again, all I did was ask a hypothetical, to which you have gotten really upset for some reason. Perhaps rather than being upset at my hypothetical question, asked because I truly hoped to get a knowledgeable response, and challenging me for the audacity for asking such question – you instead let someone who knows what they are talking about answer the question?

It appears you don’t know the answer to my question, so it is unclear to me why you felt the need to even address it? It would be a valuable piece of info to have, wouldn’t it? I don’t think the question itself is unreasonable.

Where did I say I wanted Officer Wilson to take a murder rap? Or even imply it?

Monkeytoe on August 21, 2014 at 4:46 PM

And I only asked a question–if the thing that Wilson did wrong is pursue and attempt to arrest a fleeing felon when it is not usually done, do you want him to take a murder rap for making an unpopular choice?

You keep inserting things as “known facts” that aren’t credibly verified at all yet and basing your very passionate argument on those facts.

Where have I assumed anything–except by shorthand, given how tedious my string of “givens” was in the last post.

I pointed out that this is what the left does, takes a meme that is not verified and runs with it and then invests so heavily in it they refuse to ever acknowledge it isn’t true when proven untrue.

That’s what people do. I know. I have lived a life a more deliberative and a less precipitate than almost anybody I could “side” with.

Yes, people are digging into a position on themes, that’s what I see all over the place on HotAir. It’s a hoo-boy for me–but then again, it’s only my opinion that they are doing that, so I tend not to say anything against the rock-ribbed on this board.

Again, all I did was ask a hypothetical, to which you have gotten really upset for some reason.

Not upset. Little sarcastic here and there. Of course, I can see how that could be colored by the grave subjects we’re discussing here: Life, death, civil society, law, race, anarchy, and the use of force by legal officers.

I actually found it ironic that you were saying that nobody knows anything and then complained that people were just spouting “ignorance”.

I actually found it ironic that you were saying that nobody knows anything and then complained that people were just spouting “ignorance”.

Axeman on August 21, 2014 at 7:12 PM

Wow. You did not actually read anything I wrote before attacking. I never said “nobody knows anything” and I never claimed anyone was spouting “ignorance”.

You decided to attack me because you did not like the question I asked, when you admit you don’t know the answer to the question yourself. That is odd.

I have lived a life a more deliberative and a less precipitate than almost anybody I could “side” with.

That is pretty pompous.

And I only asked a question–if the thing that Wilson did wrong is pursue and attempt to arrest a fleeing felon when it is not usually done, do you want him to take a murder rap for making an unpopular choice?

No, you asked a rhetorical question with an assumed answer – that I did want him to face a murder rap. You assume that I asked the question because I want Officer Wilson to face a murder rap. that is your silly assumption.

Instead, the reality is, what I want doesn’t matter. It is what the law says that matters (hopefully, instead of a political sacrifice). That is why I was asking the question – because I was genuinely curious in the answer. Somehow, despite being so angry about the question itself and thinking it is somehow “wrong” to even ask the question, you refuse to want to know the answer to the question. That is hardly “precipitate” or “deliberative”.

What proper police procedure is in the situation will, in fact, likely have an effect on the outcome here. Assuming – again this is a hypothetical so don’t get upset – that Brown was in fact attempting to flee when Officer Wilson started shooting – if it is proper police procedure to shoot at a fleeing felon, it helps Officer Wilson. If it is not proper police procedure to shoot at a fleeing felon it hurts Officer Wilson. Now, I happen to know – and you refuse to acknowledge – that it is generally not proper police procedure to shoot at a fleeing suspect. The wrinkle here is that, according to some reports, Brown had just finished assaulting Officer Wilson. So my question was in that situation, does that make a difference in police procedure.

Again, why that question bothers you so much is weird.

And why it bothers you so much that I suggested not to accept anonymous reports as verified fact is also weird.

I have lived a life a more deliberative and a less precipitate than almost anybody I could “side” with.

That is pretty pompous

Monkeytoe on August 22, 2014 at 7:58 AM

Now if you would have wrote that, I think I might have said, “Yeah, I try not to make up my mind too quickly, too.” If you could line up people in order from the most reflexive to the most reflective, somebody would fall at the 90% mark. Why is it pompous to simply state where you find yourself in position X as opposed to position Y? I make up my mind at a speed that is comfortable to me, other people at a speed that is comfortable to them. If I present a value for not making up my mind quickly, it is the same thing as expressing a preference for a certain level of deliberation, and people usually prefer to Bellerive their are rational reasons for preferring one approach over another.

Your suggestion that seems to express that I’m claiming some absolute universal virtue, portrays more than I definitely intended.

A simple observation on my life is that I’ve long felt a disconnect between myself and other people who feel satisfied early on and can’t understand why I want more information.