TotalBiscuit - Why Dark souls should come to the PC

This is a discussion on TotalBiscuit - Why Dark souls should come to the PC within the Dark Souls forum, part of the D; the stick came out before PC gaming actually kicked off
READ THE BOLD and weep...

Why do I have a feeling you didn't even watch the video. Regardless, if it does come on PC (Which would be awesome, more people would be exposed to this amazing game) than I just hope it isn't ported poorly.

Because it stood a chance of disagreeing with PS360's opinion so there for must be ignored at all costs.

How do you disprove something that is entirely subjective? I prefer the controller, because I was brought up with it. You prefer the Keyboard and Mouse, most likely because you were brought up with that. It's like trying to argue that a Ham Sandwich is better than a Peanut Butter and Jelly Sandwich.

Than again let's say you preferred the Keyboard and Mouse AFTER you tried the Controller, it's still your opinion, and not a fact.

i could careless if it came to PC............ i think they already ruined it when they allowed Xbox to have it............ so whats the harm in it going to PC...... i took pride in the fact Demon Souls was a Ps3 Xclusive even tho Dark Souls is basicly the same game (and yet it's not)a so called Remake, idk i been told and heard different stories..........
either way they let it go to Xbox so what's the harm in it going to PC.......... Honestly i Rather Have it had gone to PC rather than Xbox........... but then again that's just me

but pc gamers are on a higher level.
see shadowrun, microsoft's R&D involving cross platforming, and soon CS:GO.
every third person game i played on the pc was good. dark souls isn't a exception.
powerup/item shit on numerical keys, wsad controls, mouse camera movement, mouse clicking for attacking, etc.

Well, I'm not saying it can't be good... I'm saying it will take alot of work, so much so that I find it hard to believe you can just say its going to be superior off the bat (lets be honest, you are implying that in every post).

Once again I am pointing out that KB/M vs. Joystick is SITUATIONAL. SIT-U-A-TION-AL. You can't just say its superior like that because, to be frank, its an illogical argument.

You aren't controlling the same functions in each control philosophy.

Also, since in a later post you all of a sudden demand research... Do you have proof that PC gaming breeds superior hand-eye coordination?

After all its not like that statement makes any logical sense, because hand eye coordination is just the ability to respond to visual cues using movement of the hands.

1) When they do research with this stuff they usually use a controller designed for the test rather than adopting a standard controller to the test (which is what you do in gaming).

Trust me, the last time I got into a discussion with you over this I tried to find something in a reputable journal or trade paper that looked into how hand-eye coordination developed differently with a common control platform under different plant and feedback loops. I found nothing that even remotely comes close to KB/M vs. Gamepad, the closest I found was a study that dealt with how people of various skill levels adapt to change in the controller's scheme. Problem is its just the same controller with different buttons (i.e. they invert the y-axis half-way through the test).

If you are looking for any type of justification for a difference in hand-eye coordination in humans, you're not gonna find it really because they aren't asking this question. They don't care because...

2) The majority of the medical community (as well as controls, because we already know the answer to this quandary) doesn't care about KB/M vs. Gamepad. Again, they care more about brain involvement and how humans perceive changes through visual cues and are able to respond physically to them.

Here is what I will say though, all the medical journals I've ever encountered that deal with the Parietal/Occipital region interaction (the region of the brain involved here) don't show significant differences in data from experiment to experiment when it comes to the regions of the brain interacting during hand-eye coordination research. Particularly when you consider brain-to-brain variations.

3rd page, look at the variance from patient to patient... And this is with the same controller, same test, and this is a published article too. This isn't a silly blog post, as much as I can accept a blog as evidence if it actually has data, this is an article that has gone through scientific review and been deemed sound.

And this is WHY the medical community doesn't care, to them regardless of KB/M vs. Gamepad... Its the same areas of the brain being involved. Anything you could even potentially gleen as minor changes between KB/M vs. Gamepad in a given situation (more involvement in one, more in the other), isn't going to be taken seriously simply because of the variance we are talking about here person to person.

Also, don't cite FPSs please, or if you do cite more. It just detracts from the point when you pick a genre that was designed around KB/M.

Originally Posted by Ps360

show me proof that controllers are better then keyboard.

like actual researched proof, no opinion based arguments or anything.

But you haven't shown any researched proof... You linked an article with anecdotal evidence that contained little to no rationale or logic as to why this is.

You're inferring it was because of the KB/M, I'm inferring its because its a 360/XBOX vs. a PC. My PC smokes my PS3, I got 8GB of RAM, a 1 GB Graphics Card, and a Quad-Core i5.

I could pit myself on the PC vs. myself on the PS3 and myself on the PC will win every-time because I'm playing on a faster machine regardless of what controller I use on either platform. I'm playing on a higher performance of technology.

You can't say either one of us is right or wrong because the article you linked CONTAINED NO DATA OR ARGUMENT TO SUPPORT EITHER.

Meanwhile I've explained to you a dozen times by now in this and various other threads as to why you can't just say KB/M > Gamepad, and I've explained to you why they are situational. See my earlier post for an explanation why...

At a certain point in time you need to just live with the fact that you are wrong on this issue. KB/M is a situational controller, it follows a specific control rationality (manipulating a fixed point on a plane translating along a pre-defined axial ray) that provides benefit for many things you'd want to control, but requires significantly more work to properly control others.

Its no different, in logic, as to why you don't use a shotgun and a rifle in the same situation, or why you don't use the same traction/suspension controller on a Ferrari that you do on a Rolls Royce. They are situational in nature.

Also, I think the game will be more difficult if they follow the same control logic buy slap in a KB/M. DkS is built and balanced on the gamepad.

Last edited by Gauss; 01-09-2012 at 03:43 PM.

Gauss's Piracy Uncertainty Principle: When you pirate a game, that act inherently changes the results of what is to come after your pirating. You can't make any statement with any certainty regarding what would have happened had you not pirated the game.

Gauss's Rating Rationale:
0-1: A game whose very existence is abhorrent to all things creative and intelligent.
2-4: A just plain bad game.
5-6: A game that has alot of mistakes, but is atleast playable and has some enjoyable sections. Good for a rent.
7: An average game, should be played at some point
8: A good game, should buy at some point
9: A great game, day-one purchase
10: A game that goes above and beyond the generation, its transcendent.

How do you disprove something that is entirely subjective? I prefer the controller, because I was brought up with it. You prefer the Keyboard and Mouse, most likely because you were brought up with that. It's like trying to argue that a Ham Sandwich is better than a Peanut Butter and Jelly Sandwich.

Than again let's say you preferred the Keyboard and Mouse AFTER you tried the Controller, it's still your opinion, and not a fact.

I actually really like Peanut Butter and Jelly Sandwich - Ham sandwiches tend to be too salty, unless you use dijon mustard. MMMMM!!! that's good - thanks for sandwich reference.

I actually really like Peanut Butter and Jelly Sandwich - Ham sandwiches tend to be too salty, unless you use dijon mustard. MMMMM!!! that's good - thanks for sandwich reference.

Goddamnit, now I want a Ham Sandwich.

Originally Posted by Jace227

i could careless if it came to PC............ i think they already ruined it when they allowed Xbox to have it............ so whats the harm in it going to PC...... i took pride in the fact Demon Souls was a Ps3 Xclusive even tho Dark Souls is basicly the same game (and yet it's not)a so called Remake, idk i been told and heard different stories..........
either way they let it go to Xbox so what's the harm in it going to PC.......... Honestly i Rather Have it had gone to PC rather than Xbox........... but then again that's just me

*my opinion a Stick is way easier than a key board.... just saying =/

You would deprive other gamers of a game as amazing as Dark Souls because you took pride in the fact that it's predecessor was a PS3 exclusive? Mkay.

You would deprive other gamers of a game as amazing as Dark Souls because you took pride in the fact that it's predecessor was a PS3 exclusive? Mkay.

actually yeah i would............... its always ps3 exclusive that get taken......... more often then any of system...... now n days...... let it be the other way around.......... xbox games go to ps3... or etc

actually yeah i would............... its always ps3 exclusive that get taken......... more often then any of system...... now n days...... let it be the other way around.......... xbox games go to ps3... or etc

Exclusives are pointless. Everyone should experience a game, no matter what platform they play on. Why deny someone the chance to have a fun experience because of your pride. Hell if they announced a port for the Wii (Lol) I'd be happy for the Nintendo fans who finally get a crack at it.

XIM3.com = problem solved. Mouse and keyboard for PS3 / 360, no PC needed. I use it all the time and love it like a child.

I actually like that device, its pretty useful for FPSs. I find it wholly unnecessary for this game.

Its funny that this site actually talks about the exact problem I have been talking about this entire thread: that the mouse is more precise. Precision and Accuracy are dependent on what you are measuring, they are subjective.

I know I can't expect everybody to have taken a controls course that explained optimization, but the concepts of precision and accuracy are always relative to something. Its simple logic that dictates if the something changes... So does your concept of what is precision and accuracy.

For example, if I am shooting at a target... Accuracy is how close I am to my mark, Precision is my average variance in where my projectile ended up. High precision = a small cluster. High accuracy = close to target (note: the two concepts aren't necessarily correlated).

In this situation if I am designing a controller for the object I am shooting, its obvious the most optimal methodology involves controlling the angle (tilt) of the object and the position of the tip. All I want is an angular reference to a fixed point on a plane. At the end of the day, I am controlling a simple kinematic equation. Since I know my starting position and ending position there is only one optimal trajectory that will get me from one position to the next, which I can calculate, and I want my controller to reflect that calculation.

This situation is perfectly suited for the type of information a KB/M provides. You have your fixed point in space provided with very high resolution via a mouse and you can control your axial tilt with any set of keys.

While a gamepad will get your axial tilt fine with the d-pad or some other buttons, they joystick's not going to be the best choice since its never going to provide a fixed point in space over time. Not to mention your translation is going to introduce resolution issues which naturally introduce variance. Needless to say the joystick has more work necessary to overcome the mouse's natural tendency.

Lets say now instead of shooting a target I am attempting to describe a path, say I have a car moving through a maze at a non-constant velocity. Following the same logic we do above, Accuracy is the amount of time my car spends driving along the correct path and Precision is the amount of time the car spends moving along the trajectory I desire.

Well now my entire control philosophy changes, why am I going to control the car from a positional standpoint? All I'm doing is adding variance in both my accuracy and precision. No, the smart thing to do is to control my velocity. Having a greater control over my velocity will result in the most accurate and precise results.

Now all of a sudden my situation reverses itself, the information provided by a KB/M is just not well suited for the situation. Steering and Throttle are each fixed on one axis and have a high amount of variance possible over-time, you are attempting to control the trend, not the instant. Whats more is the system has a pre-established equilibrium, which a joystick will always tend toward. The end result is the joystick is going to give you the most optimal set of inputs and the most optimal situation.

NOTE: For purposes of these examples I am defining KB/M as anything where one object is given free control independent of any reasonably restrictive boundaries and is paired with another object that operates by providing fixed axial information that only indicates direction.
I am defining gamepad as a device which provides a pre-set number of buttons which provide information similar to a KB (but less buttons), and a joystick which provides angle and magnitude, is bound within a fixed space and has a fixed origin.

This has been my point this entire thread... And as much as I do enjoy that XIM3 device for console FPSs, they perpetuate the same myth.

KB/M vs. Gamepad carries situational optimality. They are optimal for different styles of gameplay, the one that is optimal for one style of gameplay isn't necessarily optimal for the other.

Last edited by Gauss; 01-10-2012 at 01:00 PM.

Gauss's Piracy Uncertainty Principle: When you pirate a game, that act inherently changes the results of what is to come after your pirating. You can't make any statement with any certainty regarding what would have happened had you not pirated the game.

Gauss's Rating Rationale:
0-1: A game whose very existence is abhorrent to all things creative and intelligent.
2-4: A just plain bad game.
5-6: A game that has alot of mistakes, but is atleast playable and has some enjoyable sections. Good for a rent.
7: An average game, should be played at some point
8: A good game, should buy at some point
9: A great game, day-one purchase
10: A game that goes above and beyond the generation, its transcendent.

You would deprive other gamers of a game as amazing as Dark Souls because you took pride in the fact that it's predecessor was a PS3 exclusive? Mkay.

Exclusives (on any console) naturally will be of higher quality then if the same game was made multiplatform. The developers are able to focus all their manpower on one machine and optimize it for it, hence why exclusives are the ones that make the consoles look good. Take Uncharted for example, or Halo. And while this is not always the case, I and many others would prefer if games that were ps3 exclusive would stay that way for the sake of quality. The time that would have been spent porting/making it for another console could be spent polishing up the sole version. So like him, I'd rather gamers of a different platform then the game was built on not get it (unless , the main version's quality isn't dumbed down to be comparable to the other console version/s. Then I'm fine with it, because I'm still getting the the best possible version for my console, and not a watered down one.) And for the record I'm not saying Dark Souls suffered because of going multiplat, but its not without its flaws.

Originally Posted by Gauss

...

I don't know why you bother with ps360 when it comes to using logical explanations and facts/research, because you know her response is basically gonna be either non-existant or "herpderp"

Exclusives (on any console) naturally will be of higher quality then if the same game was made multiplatform. The developers are able to focus all their manpower on one machine and optimize it for it, hence why exclusives are the ones that make the consoles look good. Take Uncharted for example, or Halo. And while this is not always the case, I and many others would prefer if games that were ps3 exclusive would stay that way for the sake of quality. The time that would have been spent porting/making it for another console could be spent polishing up the sole version. So like him, I'd rather gamers of a different platform then the game was built on not get it (unless , the main version's quality isn't dumbed down to be comparable to the other console version/s. Then I'm fine with it, because I'm still getting the the best possible version for my console, and not a watered down one.) And for the record I'm not saying Dark Souls suffered because of going multiplat, but its not without its flaws.

Good to see we have so many selfish gamers on this site, warms my heart. However, you stated a technical reason, he was just saying he took pride that it was on his system and not others, so I guess you have a better point. But still, it's selfish.

Oh and to those who solely are pissing and moaning about Ps360's threads, don't read them. See the first post is by Ps360 and promptly leave, you are adding nothing to the conversation in the slightest.

As Gauss has already said, you've never shown evidence to support any of your opinions. And the fact that it IS an opinion means you can have no evidence.

Originally Posted by Ps360

show me proof that controllers are better then keyboard.

like actual researched proof, no opinion based arguments or anything.

good luck.

also a game like this won't need speeding up to work properly, it's perfect enough as is. though it probably won't be as difficult because of the control scheme.

I don't need to show you proof of anything. First of all you misread the whole quote. No where did I say Controllers are better than KB/M. I said in this game Controller is the way the game is designed to be played. Between how precise the controls are, I fail to see how a KB/M can quickly dodge anywhere in a 360 degree angle without moving the mouse. Unless the KB has pressure sensitive keys now to determine how far upleft you want to go. The gameplay would be changed dramatically, and because of the controls. It'd be a much harder game for PC users.

This is more along the lines of Common sense though. Try playing a flight simulator on a KB/M vs. a Joystick or controller or any game where you are in a fast plane like BF3. KB/M isn't precise enough to play those kinds of games. Mechwarrior was pretty easy on a KB/M, but on a Joystick it was 10x easier and better. DS would easily be one of those games that is way easier on a controller vs. KB/M.

So again, you provide REAL proof before you call anyone out. And actually read up on some games or take into consideration the flaws and limitations of KB/M. Besides maybe a FPS, I wouldn't ever want to play on a KB/M due to how bad the controls are.

Originally Posted by Ps360

but pc gamers are on a higher level.

Higher level as in what? That makes absolutely no sense what so ever. A gamer is a gamer. Being a pc gamer doesn't mean your on some high pedestal. Doesn't mean they are any better than a console gamer, or a smartphone/tablet gamer.