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23 June 2017

Democrats or Russians – which to fear most? (updated 25jun17)

George Rebane

In the comment stream of a recent post ‘Elections or Polls – take your pick’, a reader posited the thesis that Democrats were a greater danger to the American Republic than is Russia. This launched a debate thread in which the left-leaning commenters saw those supporting the thesis to range from the ignorant to the traitorous. (The RR reader and commenter is former county supervisor and local blogger Mr Todd Juvinall, who has also expanded on this topic here.)

I and most right-leaning readers understand the argument to be a restatement of the classic warning uttered by countless historians and observers of the American experiment who concluded that America by its size, resources, location, and enlightened governance will not be toppled by foreign invasion, but instead, if it is to fall, it will fall because of an internal systemic fault. Here is a list of some such quotes which should convince even the most lightly educated that this thesis is fully matured in America’s ongoing dialogue and debate about how we should rule ourselves.

The most recent advances from the Left to ‘fundamentally transform’ America started under FDR during his obvious and unabashed flirtation with and introduction to socialism in the 1930s. The sought for transformation really got its legs under Lyndon Johnson’s Great Society programs, and has made steady gains for socialism over the last half century. These gains have been successfully camouflaged by our public school system, the co-opting of which was an early victory for the country’s progressives. (The objective of the school system has been to produce an ignorant and politically compliant electorate and that, for all intents and purposes, has today been achieved.) And most recently the Left’s progress toward their objective is such that candidate Barack Obama could publicly proclaim that he and a Democratic Congress would finally make the federal government’s overt goal to “fundamentally transform America.” The historical record of his administration puts paid on the thesis of from whence the greatest danger lies to a continuance of our constitutional democratic republic. (See also Agenda21)

As a comporting sideline, it should be noted that not only American thinkers, but also foreign leaders and students of America agree with this thesis. Regarding modern Russia and its massively armed progenitor USSR, both Stalin and Khrushchev were among the prominent world leaders to concur with the observation that the United States would fall from within, and fall into the lap of socialism cum communism. From what we have seen happening around us and in our daily lives during the recent decades, their predictions appear more prescient by the day. The arrival of our most ignorant generation – the millennials – has made me conclude that we are beyond the tipping point and, at a minimum, headed for the Great Divide (q.v.).

So yes, when comparing the established protocols and practices of the Democratic Party and Putin’s Russia, it is not rocket science to conclude that today’s Democrats are a greater danger to the maintenance of a constitutional America than any other political force on this earth. However, anyone agreeing with this thesis/assessment does not automatically declare himself to be a Russia ‘cuddler’ or colluder. Drawing and advancing such conclusions is at best another example of the leftwing’s lame logic. Nevertheless, with the lightly educated such accusations do get traction, but that is another issue we have covered and will again engage in these pages.

[25jun17 update] “A Washington Post report revealed Friday that Russian President Vladimir Putin himself ordered Russian operatives to interfere in the U.S. presidential election between then-candidates Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton.” This is a typical report appearing in the media re the ongoing Russian Influence Imbroglio (RII). The statement communicates the subtle message that the report was true, when in fact no such assessment could be made since no substantive basis/background was included in the WaPo piece. It was simply yet another unfounded allegation at best based on an illegal leak from a supposedly CIA source that is totally unverifiable. (here is access to the entire RII according to WaPo)

To the unwary, the use of ‘revealed’ in the above statement is either careless or pernicious journalism. When one states that something was revealed, the unmistakable implication of the verb usage is that something real was made known which formerly was hidden or not known to the target audience – but in any case, that something is true and factual. There is no necessity, nor is it even possible, to ‘reveal’ known untruths or things that are not verified. In short, reveal has a unique and powerful meaning to English speakers in the realm of communications. An honest and correct wording of the opening statement would have read, ‘Washington Post reported Friday that …’. But that factual statement falls flat, and communicates none of the desired subterfuge about the RII that is on WaPo’s political agenda as a leftwing outlet. Indeed, when you own the words. (more here)

For completeness we note that to cast doubt on the verity of a report or assertion, the useful term of art that serves is ‘claim’, as in ‘The senator claimed that he was at home that night’, or ‘The motorist claimed he was within the speed limit’. No matter how true a stated assertion may in fact be, by presenting it as ‘claimed’ immediately injects doubt in the mind of the target audience, especially if they are judged to have little or no knowledge of the matter.

Punchy @ 11:49.
Paul, who is the bigger threat to our Constitution and civil liberties? Dems or Russia? That is the question posed, not what some Slavic country prefers. Oh what you think they prefer. Their vote don't count on the question posed and they don't have a say on the matter on this topic. Neither do I wish to waste time speculating which one The Republic of Congo prefers. Who poses the greater threat to our individual liberties and rights?

BTW, the word 'slave' comes from the root of Slavic. After centuries of being carried off as slaves all across the continent, one would assume they just want to left alone.

The radial domestic enemy may be a bigger danger, if not a close second.
"Political violence became an essential and successful means of leftist warfare in the 60’s, the decade of destruction. The success of the violent “student rebellion” in 1964 and the so-called Free Speech Movement has set the table for the left’s warmongering and treason. It was clear from the outset that the “student revolution” violently ushered in at Berkeley in the mid-sixties would come to this. The left is evil, and they mean to destroy our way of life, our freedom and us. It took decades to norm their anti-Americanism, their hatred of freedom and individual rights, but they have reached their tipping point. And the long beaten and battered among us have had it."

Very good observations here GeorgeR. I too have been doing my best since I was elected in 1984 to alert people about the growth of overnment and the siminishment of our rights. But the left while crying about their "rights" is unwilling to discuss anything rationally. They are total hypocrites on most issues. Tucker Carlson has them on all the time and we get to see how loony they are. They truly are all a producy of George Orwell's writings.

In the warped world of the po' ol' fakenewsman Dr. R is a tool of the Russians for failing to slavishly agree with all of the party parrot points. The absolute proof is Dr's promotion of the Russian Spectacular at Summer Fest. ;-)

BillT 1224pm - Your overall point is spot on Mr Tozer, however there is one correction which a native Estonian cannot let pass. Estonia and Estonians are NOT SLAVIC. In fact the Slavs have been the millennial enemies of Estonians with the Russian slavs having conquered us and kept us in slavery for centuries; and the Russian slavs today threaten to return to their historical role. Estonians are the Finno-Ugric (originally from outer Mongolia) branch of northern Europe's viking hordes - Estonian vikings maurauded the rivers of today's Russia down to the Black Sea and Constantinople (now Istanbul), and through the Baltic out to the ocean to the Pillars of Hercules (now Gibraltar). The three Finno-Ugric peoples of Europe are the Finns, Estonians, and Hungarians. Hope that puts the matter to rest ;-)

Sure, Doc, whatever floats your boat. :)
----------
MEA CULPA PAUL EMERY!!!!
I, too, displayed a gross failure of reading comprehension. I was wrong. Flat wrong and cop to it. The post is titled "Democrats or Russians-which to FEAR most". It was that word FEAR moi overlooked. I read the white on the heading instead of the black. Ok, which do I FEAR most??

Well, it would be safe to assume (assume-makes an ASS out of U and ME)...er...I assume you fear Russia big time. Scared shitless. Feet don't fail me now. Can't say if your FEAR Russia more than Trump, but that is off topic. But, I could be wrong about you fearing Russia. The operative word is fear, not trust.
I feared the USSR, not so much Russia. Like, are they doing to flood the Fula Gap with 200,000 troops and rush into Germany? Then what? Heck, their GDP is way less than California's and about the same as Italy last time I looked. They have nukes, but so does India.

I do not recall Russians following, harassing, threatening the delegates to the electoral college, nor camping out in their driveways and harassing their children waiting for the school bus in an attempt to overturn the results of a democratically elected President-elect. I don't recall Russia doing anything close to shutting down free speech or the right to association on US soil like the Left is doing as I write this. And I have not even begun to scratch the surface. I live in fear. I fear wearing my Make America Great Again ballcap outside my immediate area for personal safety reasons. I fear an ever intrusive Big Brother Government pushing its nose into every aspect of my life and telling me what to say, do, and think. I fear the shredding of the Constitution and borders and placing our soldiers under a unelected UN official. I fear we are heading towards a European style EU where citizens of Great Britain are told they cannot fish off their own coasts but the Portuguese can fish there....all directives from faceless unelected bureaucrats in another country.

I fear loss of sovereignty. I fear everything the Dems are striving to accomplish. When the Lefties equal nationalism with fascism, patriotism with racism, I have much to fear the direction this country is headed. Russia is lower on the list than a threat from ISIS, Iran, and lower on the list of the internationalists, Marxists, Socialists, and America haters that comprise the coalition that make up the Democrat Party. My fears are based on what is a clear and present danger, a reasonable conclusion reached on the Liberal and Progressives clearly state goals and current multiple actions, great and small.

You fears, Punchy are the other FEARS: F**k Everything And Run and False Evidence Appearing Real

Dr. Rebane: yeah, and Brexit technically was yesterday if you factor in the time zones. Or is it tomorrow? Yawn. Mea Culpa to you as well, sir. I always get those persons, places, and things confused. Like, is The Hague in The Netherlands or Denmark? Is Budapest the capital of a Rumania or Hungry? It gets confusing. A Turkman is not a Turk, see what I mean. Ok, tell me again. Estonia is the capital of which European country? Bohemia? :)

Since I need to conclude with this being on topic (hate to be called a two faced hypocrite after admonishing The Punch Drunk One), I will give the reader another acronym for fear: False Emotions Appearing Real. Hunker down and exercise your 2nd Amendment rights, Punchy. The Deplorables are coming and they know when you have been naughty and when you have been nice.

Here is one to send the po' ol' pollhead off to the woods to bang rocks. Just saw a new poll that had 73% of respondents saying the whole Russia thing is a distraction with 64% saying it is hurting the Country. Keep banging that party parrot drum, people are starting to hate you for it. ;-)

The CA legislature incredibly had moment of sanity and said NO to universal socialist medicine. The hot temps must have vaporized their hash oil. Boy did we dodge bullet on another BHO explosion. Love those firemen! ;-)

I know this isn't quite on subject and maybe there is a thread some where else.
Our navy vessels can not detect an incoming CONTAINER SHIP?
Why aren't ALL top brass in the navy on a hot seat right now explaining this FUBAR?
If heads don't roll (publicly) what is the point of a NAVY?
Clean the swamp.

Don B. Yep, those Polls came out at 11:00 am, Eastern time, published @ 11:10'am EST. 14,hours ago. Exactly as you said, and more. Not a bad survey size either. But, next time let the polling dude break the news. We must not step on any toes and take away the one job he has graciously volunteered to do the only task he can accomplish without getting it so very wrong. Besides, the fakesnews feeds somehow omitted anything that might be considered "off script", so it isn't all his fault. That is not the kind of water they want their waterboys to carry.

Monte Montes article needs some more pro-posters. Frisch and other loons are trying to rewrite history. Also, Pelline left my comment on his blog where I take to task the fibs about the Voting Rights Act repeal of a couple of years ago.

I personally hope the Dems never stop talking about Russians. Never, ever. The Democrats are proof that evolution can go in reverse, which is a dangerous place to be. Danger is a letter short of anger. Apparently, folks in the heartland feel the same way.

Rep. Tim Walz (D-Minn.) has been paying particularly close attention to voters’ concerns because he’s running for governor in 2018. The Russia-Trump investigation, he said, isn’t on their radar.
“I did a 22-county tour. … Nobody’s focusing on that,” Walz said. “That’s not to say that they don’t think Russia and those things are important, [but] it’s certainly not top on their minds.”

“I don’t think anybody wants to give a pass to illegal or unethical activity,” he added. “But in life we all have priorities, and the first priority for my constituents is to their families — as it should be."

No, Russia not on the voters' minds. The obstruction of democracy is the real danger where the rubber meets the road and that is why the Dems are 0-5 in special elections.

"Many have defined Hillary Clinton as 'unique', a 'one off', or 'special' and now we have confirmation. Over the past quarter century, the favorability ratings of losing presidential candidates generally have increased after the election, however, as Gallup's latest poll shows, seven months after her failed bid for the presidency, she remains as unpopular now as she was then."-

"And there was nothing untoward about it. It was a dinner celebrating the 10th birthday of Russian TV network RT, and Flynn sat at the same table with Putin as US Green Party presidential candidate Jill Stein."

Hmmm. Now it all makes sense. Presidential candidate Jill Stein sitting at the table with Putin, then demands a recall of votes to undo the 2016 election. It was Jill Stein colluding with the Russians to overturn Trump's election. Mystery solved.

BT- You just connected the dots to the po' ol' greenie fakenewsman and the cover-up perpetrated by Stein. Like a good party parrot he has been locally leading the charge on the fake Russian news. Faucahants, Stein, Watters, Schiff et all conspiring to damage the people of the US! Bunch of losers. I bet they have Russian dressing on every salad! ;-)

I don't recall ever making any reference to Stein Don. Things been boring for you Don? Perhaps some serial phone calls r time spent with your neighbors will liven things up. As Leornard Cohen sings "Everybody Knows".

Democrats of Russians.
When those walls start tumbling down and you look up and notice they are going to be tumbling down on you, that my friends, is not a good place to be. Everything the Democrats and their fakenews waterboys do keeps blowing up in their hands. Now their fingers are being blown to Smithereens, torching more than their eyebrows. No reset button is going to fix this. Their Obsessive Compulsive TDS-Russia Disordet is making them look like both ingredients that conprises stink of shit.

Just in: Russians may have cast 5.7 illegal votes!! Threat to our democracy! Opps, that was the Democrat Party. Much more effective, deceptive and cunning than the Putin could ever be. Vlady plays second fiddle to our Leftists.

BillT I think you may be on to something. Those wascally Rooskies got into the California Countiues Election offices. All 58. And 5 million votes were electronically cast for Hillary! You are so amazing! Now we know Trump won the popular vote too!

It didn’t take long for that story to fall apart completely, with Breitbart News discovering that the “investigation” Frank spoke of is not a Senate Intelligence Committee investigation but is rather being conducted by a few hysterical Democrats who happen to be on the Senate Intelligence Committee.

BuzzFeed News quotes one source “close to the network” as stating that both CNN Worldwide President Jeff Zucker and the company’s head of human resources are “directly involved” in an internal investigation seeking answers as to how such a massive accusation was made with such thin sourcing.

According to BuzzFeed’s source, the story is being treated as a “massive, massive f*ck up and people will be disciplined.”

I wouldn't worry about the Russia story too much. It'll die down over time, any retractions will run on page 20, in five years underemployed white people in coffee shops will still talk sagely about 'you know, Trump colluded with the Russians and he hired call girls in Moscow!!!'

In the meantime, they're frantically on new fishing expeditions. The newswarrior story o' the day is the Trump Shoe Company.

AT least one Republican is not a Trump cuddler. This blog has gone from cuddling to outright wet kisses. Bizarre. I've been staying out of it. You guys are entertaining enough without me.

“And I say, look, I was no fan of President Obama… but I would much rather have him as my president than Vladimir Putin, who kills his enemies,” Rep. Adam Kinzinger says. “It shows how much people need leadership on foreign policy.”

He is prepared to wage a rebellion and raise “holy hell” in the face of new efforts by the White House and its allies to water down a bill enshrining into law tough sanctions on Vladimir Putin’s government. The measure—which passed overwhelmingly in the Senate—ran into trouble last week as Trump allies raised procedural roadblocks and Secretary of State Rex Tillerson complained the bill unduly ties the administration’s hands. “There will be some holy hell from some of us that would be very upset about this,” says Kinzinger, an up-and-coming member of the House Foreign Affairs Committee who’s emerged as a rare voice inside the GOP willing to publicly critique the president of his own party on foreign policy. A particularly ardent Russia hawk in a party that was until recently filled with them, Kinzinger has taken to tweeting with the hashtag “#russiaisnotourally” in what seems to be a direct challenge to the Twitter-loving president, and he says in the interview: “I think you will see a House that is very, very eager to make sure this thing passes.”

All of which is to suggest that the argument over the sanctions is no mere procedural scuffle—it gets right to the heart of the Russia story that Trump and his party just can’t get away from.

Anyone attempting the point that Russia is more likely than the Democrats to fundamentally transform America has to support his arguments with a plausible scenario of how Russia would ever manage to accomplish such a change. None has been given here or in the national media. All we have is empty charges such as PaulE's gratuitous 901am accusing those here going "from cuddling to outright wet kisses." Even with such empty responses, I'd like to see an example of a 'wet kiss' from these pages.

Trump is pushing back on sanctions as proposed by The House. That's a wet smacker if there ever was one. Read my 9:01 for details.

"The measure—which passed overwhelmingly in the Senate—ran into trouble last week as Trump allies raised procedural roadblocks and Secretary of State Rex Tillerson complained the bill unduly ties the administration’s hands."

The fact that Trump said to the Russians that firing Comey took pressure off the Russia investigation is another. I can go on and on but there's no point. Contributors to this blog who believe the Democrats are a greater threat to our sovereignty than the Russians are hopelessly delusional and don't deserve direct response.

"I can go on and on but there's no point." The first truth from the po' ol' fakenewsman, the problem is he does not get the there's no point part. Despite all the good bye's the po' ol' pollhead keeps slinking back in full party parrot mode. While even cnn realizes they have gone over the top po' ol' PE will still have huffpo, Maxine, Schiff and Pelosi to parrot. ;-)

Good points DonB. The lamestream media and the democrats are deflecting now that we see Obama and his minions' withheld pertinent info on what they knew. And all to influence the election. Obama says he did not want to appear like he was interfering. SAY WHAT? He was on the campaign trail for her the whole time. Honestly these media types and the democrats truly thinks the American people are stupid. And that is in our favor. They outsmarted themselves.

PaulE 1035am - Your conversation wanders all over the place; most certainly you're not keeping to the thread of your accusation of RR commenters delivering "wet kisses". And bringing nukes to this thread indicates that you never understood the thread in the first place. One more time - re threat by Dems or Russians to fundamentally transform the US has nothing to do with nukes. FYI, nukes are used in a global war, not political subterfuge or non-constitutional governance by internal parties like the Dems. Russia has no motivation to nuke the US for the same reasons that MAD prevented the USSR from doing so. Try to stay on the rails.

What's all the fuss about? Paul had been fretting and worrying (what concerns me is...) about Trump lifting the sanctions against Russia since before the Inaugation. Trump and that dirty oilman T Rex are going to lift the sanctions! Trump and T Rex is going to lift the sanctions for...oil and benefit evil oil companies! . "What concerns me is Trump is has no experience and Putin is going to run circles around him, blah, blah, blah". "Trump is Putin's puppet and Exxon is going after the pipelines and they are going to lift the sanctions!!!!!!!!! Danger, danger, danger, sound the alarms, all hands on deck. Man the battle stations. Danger, Will Robertson, danger!

Geeze fellas, at least Paul is consistent. You guys act like this is something new.
But, but, but... we makes nice with Saudi Arabia! Human rights violators!
Well, the Saudis are our allies, human rights violators or not. Good to make nice with our allies. That is usually what allies do. Besides, sanctions is a nice distraction to take the focus (heat) off our Democrat Party's blatant death march to tyranny while writing laws that neatly subvert our Constitution, all in the guise of "equality".
Sanctions! Look at sanctions, not the imploding Left.

Oh course Russia has a billion warheads pointing at us. It's their deterrent to keep the Lefty War Mongers here from attacking Mother Russia. A reasonable response to the real threat, which is the Deep State Democrats.

Paul 1035, the 80's are calling and they want their foreign policy back.

George 1120, I think Paul is just throwing turds into the fan.

Paul 1132, you're talking about the interference that didn't change a single vote? If the DNC doesn't want hackers from anywhere getting into their computers, they should invest in security. Lock the barn door.

I feear the Democrats and the damage done by Fakenews. Luckily, both are being considered for placement on The Endangered Species List to keep a few around to show our grandchildren whatthe real threat to our Constitutional Republic looked like.

Here is a Russian nugget for the po' ol' pollhead, a poll in Russia had Stalin taking the #1 spot from putin as the greatest Russian. Sounds like the commie core is rising to the surface again. That should make for better relations with the rabid left like our po' ol' druid. Back to the future for the socialist collective. ;-)

Simple question George. The residents of this blog show no concern for what has absolutely been established as Russian attempts to interfere with our elections. I'm asking if you run with that crowd or have your own opinion. Not much from you on that.

What a maroon @ 1217. We have been at odds with the Russians for a century with a brief WWII cooperation to crush the Nazis. You continue to look wacky acting like Russia screwing with us at every tern is somehow new.

For someone like you ya po' ol' fakenewsman to impugn people who served under arms is a perfect example of the newspeak of the leftists and why they have lost touch with Americans. 73% say you are a distraction to real national interests and 63% say you are hurting the Country, but of course that is the real point of your exercise is it not? ;-)

@ 12:27 pm Paul, the word is meddle, meddle, not interfer. But, you are coming around slowly and, by golly, finally jumped in with both feet and used the most accurant description as "Russian attempts to interfere with our elections." Excellent. Bravo! Kudos! Attempts to interfere" is a big leap forward, Punchy, after all these months of Rope-a--Dope and the Bob & Weave Show. Al last, we are finally on the same page, albeit Wikileaks has in no way yet to be "absolutely been established as Russian attempts to interfere with outr election. Remember, the DNC refused to let our government see their server. Refused all help. But, let's celebrate today's big breakthrough. Making progress there, Punchy. Good water boy, good. You deserve a nice treat. Time to get your dog biscuit.

George! George! Paul is calling you. George, do you agree with these Putin cuddlershere or not? Yes or no, yes or no! And no 50 shades of grey. George, you are running with Russian lubbers! George, George!

So let me see. Hmmm. The Rooskies some say tried to interfere with our elections and failed. And there is no proof their alledged efforts had any impact on even one voye. OK, so the reality appears they had nothing to do with anything. So tell us where is the beef?

Todd, '"Where is the beef" is not the question of real import. The real question, the big question, the only question that matters today is " Why is Dr. Rebane running with that Putin bromance crowd and why has Dr. Rebane not stood up and denounced them?"
Why, why, why.? George! George! Your lack of denouncement and repudiation of them Irredeemables is PROOF you have a Putin bromance, too! George, oh George, answer me now!

Hell. Let's call KVMR and see if they can replace the not so "up on the facts" news guy with another. Megan Kelly might be needing a new gig. At least her ratings would improve at KVMR. NBC is sure regretting giving her a job.

Yes Walt its is very funny that the 20 million dollar wonder woman has been last in ratings. Getting beaten by repeats of 60 minutes says it all. Will she be banished to msnbc hell for not being ready for prime time? She thought all the Trump bashing would make her a bombshell star at NBC but its turned into a wet firecracker for the NBC fools who paid her all that cash. ;-)

Really ya po' ol' fakenewsman? You aren't really going to resurrect your pecker head friends old lie about me 'being a marine on mental leave from the gulf war' are you? That lie was disproven in court years ago because my DD214 shows honorable service with the AF. Typical of po' ol' PE showing he can not hack it when facts enter the conversation about his Russian dressing addiction. More pathetic than ever. ;-)

DonM, he attacked me relentlessly for having a 326 in the first lottery and not volunteering in 1968-69. He took a "reserve" position with the AF and was able to stay stateside during Vietnam. He even accused me of being a liar as I said I was married with a child. You cannot make this stuff up!

Walt @ 1:02 pm. Darn it, you beat me too it. Well, I snooze, I lose. Got distracted with a thing called 'life happens'. Was going to place it over at the Great Divide, but I will post here and say kudos for being the early bird.

Per Walt's 1:02 pm......do ya fear Da Russia or the Democrats more, be they liberals, progressives, or Democtraic Socialists?

"In other words, exactly what conservatives and those who understand basic supply and demand predicted."

Lets review how the Russian dressing story is playing out in the real world (not in fakenewsmens heads obviously).

CNN investigations unit had 3 employees fired over the latest fake Russian news they had to retract, including the head of the unit.

It has come out that Gen Flynn had a target on his back placed there by McCabe the #2 at the FBI. 2 years before Flynn was unmasked illegally Flynn had officially supported an intel specialist in her sexual harassment complaint against McCabe. Flynn offered to testify for her and wrote to the investigators using his official stationary.

McCabe used all the clout he could to kill the investigation into his possible misdeeds but with people like Flynn supporting the accuser the investigation went forward and is in fact ongoing. McCabe was forced to give sworn depositions. Now it makes sense, simple revenge against Flynn with a dose of Russian dressing and the dems post election mantra the Russians did have wasted time that could have been used to make America great again! ;-)

Here is an end of the day toke for the po' ol' pollhead- A Harvard poll shows 54% of people think the deep state is driving all of this to unseat Trump.
Is it possible that the fakenewsmen have a negative favorability poll number now? ;-)

You expect us to believe you haven't heard of it Paul? And who the hell gives a crap who coined the phrase. The real question is, do you have any clue what it means? And no cut and paste from Wiki, or anywhere else for that matter.

I see that term all the time Walt but I'm not sure what it means to you. Seems to mean different things to different people. We need that to have a basis for discussion. Does it mean solid blue States such as Calif and New York or what?

Golly gee, Paul, the Harvard-Harris poll defined it thusly in that question... "CT27 Specifically, do you think the so called "Deep State" -the collection of intelligence agencies and holdover workers from the Obama administration -- is trying to unseat President Trump using leaks of classified information?

And yes, on page 95, it shows 54% yea on that.

On the next page, an interesting followup... why did Hillary lose?
Hillary Clinton and her 1495
campaign team for running a 67%
weak campaign

or

Forces like the Russians, 743
former FBI director Comey, 33%
and the Democratic National
Committee not having
reliable voter data

Paul, 2 to 1 people think Hillary lost it herself, not 'cause the Russkies, Comey or the DNC being unable to find their ass with both hands free. That kind of suggests the witch hunt tactic might be self limiting.

That's not the question. You and I can agree that Hillary waged a terrible campaign and in my view should have never been picked by the Dems. even with those flaws she won the popular vote by millions but came up short in three key states by only a few thousand votes. the question is did Russia violate our sovereignty by interfering with our elections. Trumps homeland security believes so. Here's from their testimony just a few days ago

"Russian government-linked hackers potentially targeted as many as 21 states' election systems last year, a Homeland Security official warned Congress on Wednesday.
None of those systems were involved in vote counting, however.
DHS' acting Director of Cyber Division of the department's Office of Intelligence and Analysis, Samuel Liles, said that by late September the intelligence community concluded that 21 states "were potentially targeted by Russian government-linked cyber actors" with scanning of Internet-connected election systems. Liles did not specify which 21 states he was referring to.
The comments came during a hearing of DHS and FBI cybersecurity officials before the Senate intelligence committee. "

Also all you Putin cuddlers must believe that that Syria didn't use chemical weapons a couple of months ago. I mean that's what Putin believes and he's you're guy, much preferred over any Demorat. Here's a quote from your guy.

"President Vladimir Putin said on Tuesday that Russia had information that the United States was planning to launch new missile strikes on Syria, and that there were plans to fake chemicals weapons attacks there.

Putin was speaking hours before U.S. Secretary of State Rex Tillerson was due to arrive in Moscow for talks with Russia's foreign minister and days after denouncing last week's U.S. missile strike on a Syrian air base as illegal.

Standing alongside Italian President Sergio Mattarella who was in Moscow for talks, Putin, when asked by a reporter if he expected more U.S. missile strikes on Syria, said:

"We have information that a similar provocation is being prepared ... in other parts of Syria including in the southern Damascus suburbs where they are planning to again plant some substance and accuse the Syrian authorities of using (chemical weapons)."

Paul, after answering the question, I added the 2 to 1 a'gin you question to potentially target your sense of futility regarding trying to motivate the 33% who think the Russkies might have made a difference.

Wow... "potentially targeted by" the Russkies. I guess that means I'll potentially be concerned. So, Paul... how many states had their "internet-connected election systems" compromised, and not just "potentially targeted"? That seems to be a big zero.

I gather there's still no actual evidence the Russkies succeeded in damaging squat.

Good luck in getting the Constitution amended to eliminate that pesky Electoral College. Too late for 2016 in any case. Maybe by 2116? Maybe never?

I guess you ignore the findings of Trumps Homeland Security Team and the entire intelligence community as well as the head of the FBI, NSA, CIA........ Incredible. Gregory you and three or four on this blog and Trump are the only ones that believe that. Amazing.

readers take note. this is a very unusual collection here at Rebanes Ruminations.