Don't know the official terms as you guys do. We don't get into the official names just the techniques. My favorite it the tree-up (or tree-down). This is also know as the Americana, Kumura or Paintbrush. Also like the RNC as well as any armbar.

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Well, not really. Now I'm no expert on physio and anatomy but I'm pretty sure that Kimura is hyperflexion plus lateral rotation at the shoulder and Americana is hyperextension and medial rotation at the shoulder. The injuries inflicted by using these techniques should differ. However, if we ignore the injuries inflicted, I suppose you are correct.

Quote:ya, from what i know kimura is from the guard, americana is from mount, and also side control.

**BUT the mechanics for each move is practically the same**

We learn this as one technique. We are taught to recognize it in any position. But as explained we don't use a lot of the names just the techniques are taught. We may have names we make up ourselves or passed down to make it easier. In this case then our Tree-Up would be the Americana and our Tree-Down would be the Kimura.

_________________________"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

I'm well aware of the Kimura and where the name came from. Howeve the system that we use it a lot to do with Korean and the word Tree-Up and Tree-Down were terms passed to my Instructor from his Master who is from South Korea who learned from his father who learned from his father, etc. This means far more to me with respect then the name Kimura from an individual that has no connection to me. I respect it but see no need to call it anything but what I'm taught.

_________________________"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

The techniques that you are taught, do they get English names or Korean? I've heard of striking techniques that are in Korean but never grappling techniques, so I was wondering.

I'm a firm believer in name as passed down, and I agree sometimes we have to give it a nickname so it doesn't get confusing. But I see it wrong as giving its nickname as its official name. E.g. Ippon seoi-nage = Ippon. Call it shoulder throw or something. I mean, it looks abit odd when the victor uses the Ippon and on the screen it says Technique used: "Ippon" *shakes head in disbelief*

-Taison out

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I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

Quote:Don't know the official terms as you guys do. We don't get into the official names just the techniques. My favorite it the tree-up (or tree-down). This is also know as the Americana, Kumura or Paintbrush. Also like the RNC as well as any armbar.

The techniques that you are taught, do they get English names or Korean? I've heard of striking techniques that are in Korean but never grappling techniques, so I was wondering.

All of the techniques we learn are in English. My Instructor does know some names in Korean as his Master is Korean and the grappling is from Hapkido. However when training with the US Marines and as well here in Canada to students, he translated everything to English or had terms in English that anybody could understand. Sometimes the official names are so confusing you can get lost in them.

For the techniques I talked about, his Master called it a Tree-Up as the arm and hand looks like the truck of a tree and the fingers are the branches. When the arm is up then that is a Tree-Up (or Americana). When the arm is pointed down it is a Tree-Down (or Kimura).

You have to remember this techniques was known far before it was ever named a Kimura (1951). Just because this move was renamed to Kimura did not mean that all people around the world that already practiced this should change the name of what they were doing.

The techniques in our system is the most important thing. The names are not important but if you want to know them they will be told to you ... or our Instructor may say them from time to time but remembering them is harder so we will make up our own names or say what they really are. This is a hip toss with blah blah. This is .... you get the point.

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I'm having a bit of a problem remembering all the techniques in Japanese. Tree-down, I think it's called something like Origanami-gatame or something like that. I can only recall it begins with Ori and then ends with Gatame. Seems I have to go and do some research. Now I remember, it's called Ude Garami! Phew, now I got that off my chest. And the name just gets longer with each variation as you said, tree up, tree down, cross body, reverse, mount, etc. .

Anyway, I understand your point. It's quite difficult to teach foreigners in a foreign language, like in your case it wouldn't be suitable to teach the Korean names as the student would end up mixing them anyway.

-Taison out

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I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

If the first doesn't work, the second or third are always good to fall back on

Hadaka Jime(Rear Naked Choke)-still one of the best!

I've also been becoming vey fond of Shiho Gatame (Smother Hold). Sure, it's not likely to do damage on its own, but if done correctly it is a very effective holding technique that gives the user a lot of opportunities to do major damage

Standing long range while their moving Deashi-bari, when I'm attacking Osoto-gari or head lock hip throw.Some one grabs from behind, Seionage as the 1st arm wraps around my sholder. In mince a takedown sometimes corner leg throw or leg wrap Gullotine Choke, Tussling Kimura or Arm bar or four corner choke, from behind RNC, in front his head between my knees surf board single or double arm shoulder lock.

I have this really really strange fascination for Tani-otoshi and Tai-otoshi. I don't know, in every randori, these always comes out and the success rate is somewhere between 75-85%.

Uchi-mata. The move that dropped a 120 Kg man to the floor, by a little dude that weighed around 50 Kg. That's a real scary move out of the corner. I really hate this move as my favorite fighting position begins from the corner and they have a free chance to launch me with this one.

-Taison out

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I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

To be honest, I hate it when people talk and leaves me in the dust with a big question mark on my forehead. I'm sorry Dereck if I don't know the English equivalent names of the throws as I am taught all the techniques in Japanese as my art is still traditional. Unlike most Judo-ka I have to remember Persian and Russian names as well [some Korash and Sambo techniques].

On Thursday prior to grappling we did several different moves with one being the two arm shoulder throw a.k.a. Morote Seoinage. We then finished this move off with keeping control of the one arm and applying a wrist lock, jerking the arm while moving to the otherside of their body which makes them roll on to their stomach and then pin the arm behind their back while placing your weight down on them. To make them tap you can lift their arm causing pain or go for the hair pull or eye gouge.

We also practice the large hip throw a.k.a. O Goshi. To finish this move we kept control of the arm, placed our knee down on the chest and immediately swung our legs over and ended it with an arm bar.

Thanks again Taison.

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That's kinda funny. We do the O-goshi and then we land we go for the leg in old fashioned Achilles hold or knee-bar.

The good thing about your TKD and my Judo is that our arts emphasises on getting the throw in and following up with a lock. Many Judo-ka these day do the throw and don't follow up. Ok, we can argue we both do it for SD but, still, should ne-waza be an important aspect of Judo?

Today, master told me to be ready for some suplex action. He was getting the padded mats ready.

-Taison out to suplexes

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I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

I had to look that one up. To be honest Taison, if I was doing this for SD then I would have broken the arm against my knee as we learn in a lot of our techniques and one-steps. We have been taught these moves as well for SD but in this case on Thursday the arm bars/arm locks that we used were mostly for grappling purposes and really did not have anything to do with SD but sport and competition.

Should groundwork be important to Judo? Again it depends if you are training for SD or sport. It has its benefits for both but I would say yes, without a doubt.

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i like the wrist throw, very simple but it works a treat. The other day we were doing random attacks and my partner did an uppercut and i done something which was similar to aikido (which is wierd because i have never done aikido), our sensei said its all well and good doing a set move (straight arm lock from a round house, hip throw from back strangle, ect) but in a competition the judges would be looking for something different, thats why i did this aikido-esque move.

Taison, you might want to do some in depth study of O guruma since you like tai otoshi. If you "hit" O guruma correctly (proper entry) you have three choices of leg position for the throw... basic O guruma, drop it down and do ashi otoshi, or drop it to the mat and do tai otoshi. If they step over to counter it, they set themselves up for uchi mata.

Just a footnote from that old guy who doesn't know anything about... whatever you want to call it...

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What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

I'm fairly lucky where I live in the fact that I have an internationally recognised Judo club and an exceptional standard JJ club all within 5 minutes of where I live.Unfortunately I have been doing neither long enough to know what my favourites are. However, certain techniques that I have come to enjoy using, learnt within my karate syllabus, are the body drop (tai otoshi??), inside reap (O uchi gari??), shoulder throw (ippon seoi nage??) and outer reap (O soto gari??). Favourite hold has got to be RNC.

Kimura, Americana, Top Wrist Lock, Double Wrist Lock, Keylock, Paintbrush are all Ude-Garami in Judo (although some of them aren't legal in current Judo competition because they attack the shoulder and not the elbow).

I don't really diferentiate between them, except in defense, since I can defend the Kimura (Tree-Down mentioned earlier) very easily and have almost no chance in defending the Americana (Tree-Up) once it's locked in.

Head and arm variation of the guillotine from full guard.My outer heel hook technique.The Keylock. Single Leg takedown.Head and arm throw.

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Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

Katamewaza1) Ashi-hishigi2) Ude-garami3) Jujigatame4) Hiza-hishigi5) Gyaku-hishigi (aka Orochi. It's when you hold someone in the head lock, you'll go down to the ground, while applying pressure to the neck, and at the same time get them into a guard and squeeze their ribs together and push outwards)6) Hadaka-jime.

-Taison out

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I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

My favorite Judo technique is osoto makikomi and soto makikomi. I consider these two throws really one throw with two different finishes. I get my tie-up for the throw and if his weight is back, its osoto makikomi, but if his weight is forward, its soto makikomi.

Quote:I've always viewed the makikomi group (except uchimata makikomi) as a plan B.

I go for osoto-gari, it's blocked, I go for osoto-makikomi.

Never used them as a 'technique' per say.

-Taison out

Osoto gari was one of the first judo throws taught to me. I could never get it to work for me. Then one day a higher belt threw me with soto makikomi. I asked him to show me the throw but I was unable to make soto/osoto makikomi work for me either. So I forgot about these throws until years later, while at a mma club I was playing with non-gi grips for judo throws when I tried osoto/soto makikomi again. For whatever reason I finally got the kuzushi right and now I love this throw.