Barton: It’s All About the Anal Sex

David Barton and Rick Green on the Wallbuilders radio show think they have the way to stop the evil gay agenda in its tracks: Focus on what they think are disgusting sexual acts engaged in by gay people because that will gross people out and make them hate gay people.

Green: Just yesterday on the program with Father Frank, you were describing at the end of the program just like what Representative [Bill] Dannemeyer had read on the House floor in describing just how graphically disgusting these activities are in the homosexuality community. And I think a lot of folks who are kind of siding with them on this Scout fight again, do not realize what they’re approving to go camping with their ten and eleven year old boys.

Barton: Yeah, people have an image of what they think sexuality is and, you know, that can come from movies or come from other sites as well, but when you get the specifics of what homosexuality activity is, even decent people find that absolutely reprehensible and disgusting. And that’s why when Representative Dannemeyer said “hey you Democrats are trying to promote this, let me read what you’re promoting, even Democrats got grossed out and tried to censor the Congressional Record and get that stuff taken out because it was so disgusting.

That is probably a good point to make Rick. While we think of this as being tolerant and whatever, no, you do need some details to realize what we’re facing here and it’s not what you think it might be. Get some details on it.

Yeah, then maybe we can describe in great detail how Sen. David Vitter, self-declared Man of God and righteously anti-gay “family values” advocate, paid prostitutes to dress him up in diapers. I got news for you, Barton, straight people do kinky shit just as much as gay people do. And yet no one would suggest that anyone who engages in kinky straight sex should be discriminated against.

It is obvious that people like Barton have no fucking self-awareness; if they did they would see me and millions of others making that hand gesture while poking my tongue into my cheek. Yeah, sorry, pal, I think thou doth protest/project too much.

It’s not Adam and Steve? maybe it’s Adam and DAVE!

Pierce R. Butler

And yet no one would suggest that anyone who engages in kinky straight sex should be discriminated against.

Check Greta Christina’s commenters for some samples of “no one” in this context.

criticaldragon1177

Edbrayton

Apparently they think that every one who isn’t gay, deep down inside is a homophobe like them. Also, even if one happens to be disgusted by Something, that’s hardly an argument for outlawing it, or violating people’s rights. Barton and Green are pathetic.

VeganAtheistWeirdo

I know I’m not the only one who finds the conservative homophobes’ obsession with male/male anal sex very revealing. Even funnier, though, I also know I’m not the only non-gay non-male who appreciates some gay porn. To me the act they are referring to is far from “disgusting”–but the thought of any of them engaged in any type of sex is positively revolting. I guess that means I should be trying to pass a law to keep them from fucking, because it grosses me out.

http://dododreams.blogspot.com/ John Pieret

Yeah, people have an image of what they think irrational bigotry is and, you know, that can come from movies or come from other sites as well, but when you get the specifics of what irrationally bigoted activity is, even decent people find that absolutely reprehensible and disgusting.

A. Noyd

Oh, good grief. There could be gay dudes who are into making Two Boys One Cup videos, but they would be totally grossed out by the thought of even caressing an 11 year old through his clothes because gays aren’t pedophiles.

http://polrant@blogspot.com democommie

I guess that those of who find what Barton and his fellow religidiots think is disgusting should try to pass laws against their doing so, “thinking”, that is. Otoh, they do so little of it that it would only be a nuisance ordinance anyway.

Eristae

Why do these people insist on ignoring the existence of lesbians? The “homosexual community” isn’t just made up of gay men.

garnetstar

I hate to burst their bubble, but plenty of heterosexual couples enjoy anal sex, and have practiced over the millenia.

These guys need to read more 17th-century porn. It’s very enlightening.

reddiaperbaby1942

Actually, a straightforward, factual description of “straight”, ordinary sexual intercourse is also pretty gross, what with the engorged tissues and mucal membranes and in general the messiness of it all. And the dual functions of the same set of organs, in both male and female mammals — serving both elimination and procreation — is pretty odd if you think about it. I’ve often thought that this is one of the best arguments against intelligent design; surely no designer in their right mind could come up with something like this!

Of course, if they prefer to think of their creator as not very good at his/her/its job, who am I to argue. I believe Hitchens has made the same point, but in fact W B Yeats pointed it out a long time ago: “For love has pitched his mansion in / The place of excrement.”

Draken

Man, if I could get $1 for each devout evangelical married christian who takes it up the back alley every once in a while. Men and women.

http://en.uncyclopedia.co/wiki/User:Modusoperandi Modusoperandi

So basically they want to get in on gay porn DVD commentaries?

VeganAtheistWeirdo

Why do these people insist on ignoring the existence of lesbians?

Ah, but that’s just it. For many “straight” men, lesbian sex is hot. So you have two dynamics working here: autohomoerotophobia, and the objectification of your sexuality for their titillation. They aren’t threatened by you, so you are allowed to go about your business. Just don’t try to get married. Or adopt.

Nick Gotts (formerly KG)

democommie@1,

It’s way past time to retire this trope that all prominent homophobes are repressed homosexuals. There’s no evidence for it, and it’s actually a form of victim-blaming – even homophobia being presented as the fault of teh ghey.

whheydt

The classic joke is that God must be an engineer, for only an engineer would route a sewer directly through an entertainment area.

VeganAtheistWeirdo

There’s no evidence for it

You’re joking, right? I don’t think anyone has said that “all prominent homophobes are repressed homosexuals;” just that a lot of them are. I don’t see it as victim-blaming, unless you’re calling the hypocrites victims. They are victimizing themselves and other non-cis-binary-straight people with their self-hating bullshit.

marcus

reddiaperbaby1942 @ 10 “For love has pitched his mansion in / The place of excrement.”

Or as I have also heard it, “Whose idea was it to put the sewage plant next to the playground.”

And don’t get me started on ID vs prostate! gland.

(Pops another Flomax.)

D. C. Sessions

Why do these people insist on ignoring the existence of lesbians? The “homosexual community” isn’t just made up of gay men.

Because men aren’t grossed out by what women do together.

I hate to burst their bubble, but plenty of heterosexual couples enjoy anal sex, and have practiced over the millenia.

And I wonder how many people get the pun.

steve84

Just about every straight porn movie these days has anal sex

dan4

Such a phony argument, as if these two are okay with homosexuality outside of the context of sexual intercourse.

steve84

@VeganAtheistWeirdo

In fact pretty much everyone who writes slash fanfic is a straight woman. And Google will show that it’s a huge genre with tons and tons of stories being released all the time.

lofgren

Yeah, then maybe we can describe in great detail how Sen. David Vitter, self-declared Man of God and righteously anti-gay “family values” advocate, paid prostitutes to dress him up in diapers.

Well now look. Different people might have differing opinions on anal sex. I get that. But I think we can all agree that this is perverse and sick, and ought to be outlawed. Even Democrats know that sex with David Vitter is disgusting.

tbp1

@16: Yes, it’s incredibly obvious that LOTS of prominent gay-rights opponents are attempting to disguise their sexual orientation, often from themselves, too. As you say, I don’t think anyone claims that it’s all of them. I’m not a mind reader so I can’t be sure, but I have my suspicions about Gary Bauer, Alan Keyes and Rick Santorum. And who’s that guy who goes to all the gay pride events in San Francisco and reports breathlessly on all the depravity to his shocked followers? You’d think if he were so disgusted by it, once or twice would have been enough, but no, he bravely soldiers on, year after year, event after event.

Aren’t there studies demonstrating that a high percentage of homophobic self-described straight men show signs of arousal when viewing gay porn, a significantly higher percentage than non-homophobic self-described straight men? (Sorry I can’t provide a link—so far I haven’t come up with the right string of terms to find references).

Didaktylos

Isn’t one of the great Republican v Democrat jokes that, given the choice, the sex workers of any given city would prefer to host a Republican over a Democrat Presidential Nomination Convention because the Reps not only provide a larger volume of business but tend to plump for the more lucrative varieties …

http://en.uncyclopedia.co/wiki/User:Modusoperandi Modusoperandi

lofgren, when sex with David Vitter is outlawed, only outlaws will have sex with David Vitter. You can take my sex with David Vitter when you pry him from my cold dead hands. David Vitter doesn’t have sex with people, people have sex with people. The only thing that stops bad sex with David Vitter is good sex with David Vitter. Do you know who else banned sex with David Vitter? Hitler!

http://zenoferox.blogspot.com/ Zeno

I don’t remember where I first saw the comment, but someone once said, “Straight people and gay people are completely different from each other — except for what they do in bed.”

“It’s way past time to retire this trope that all prominent homophobes are repressed homosexuals. There’s no evidence for it, and it’s actually a form of victim-blaming – even homophobia being presented as the fault of teh ghey.”

WTF?

There’s no evidence for it? Do you mean that there are no prominent homophobes that are repressed homosexuals? Larry Craig, Ken Mehlman, George Rekers, Ted Haggard or any of the others mentioned here:

Victim blaming? I have no problem with gay people, including gay people who are reluctant to self-identify as such–unless of course they are attacking gay people. When they’re doing that, they’re not victims or anyone but themselves.

marcus

Modusoperandi @ 25 Please stop! People at work are starting to look at me funny due to the random outbursts of inappropriate laughter coming from my workstation. I’m trying to make people think I’m working here! You are not helping!

http://dododreams.blogspot.com/ John Pieret

Modus:

Now that you own the internet, can you make it so Marcus doesn’t get strange looks?

ArtK

These guys think ant talk more about anal sex than any 10 gay men of my acquaintance. The sex isn’t what is sick, their obsession is what’s sick.

@ Nick Gotts

When some closeted person goes from hiding what they are to actively persecuting people who are just like them, they lose the protection of “don’t blame the victim.”

While it’s certainly not universal, enough major-league anti-gay bigots have been caught with their pants down (literally and figuratively), that we can’t simply say that it’s a false trope.

Mattir, Another One With Boltcutters

Wait, I’m a Boy Scout leader and am taking a bunch of 11 and 12 year old boys to scout camp for a week this summer. In the 12 years I’ve been camping with Boy Scouts, I’ve never been asked to fill out forms detailing what I like to do in bed.

Might be that being a middle-aged, heterosexually married woman has a bit to do with that – everyone knows that het women never ever do THOSE sorts of things.

tbp1

@28: Thanks. I was using much too complicated phraseology. You’re right about my google skills. I don’t actually use it very often for anything requiring more than 1 word.

http://cheapsignals.blogspot.com Gretchen

Pierce R. Butler said:

And yet no one would suggest that anyone who engages in kinky straight sex should be discriminated against.

Check Greta Christina’s commenters for some samples of “no one” in this context.

I was about to object to Ed’s statement that no one would discriminate against kinky straight people by saying that that’s only because it’s difficult to ascertain who the kinky people are. If straight-but-kinky people had to wear scarlet Ks on their chests all of the time, you can be damn sure there would be discrimination against them. As it stands, there’s certainly discrimination against kink itself, in the form of sex clubs being shut down, zoning restrictions which inhibit the operation of sex shops, etc.

But since you said the above, I feel compelled to point out that:

a) disliking a certain kink is not the same as disliking or opposing kink generally;

b) disliking or opposing kink generally is not the same as disliking or opposing kinky people, and further

c) even disliking or opposing kinky people is not the same as discriminating against them.

At least the last I saw, not a single person in Greta’s post or comment thread went beyond “a.”

tbp1, I didn’t mean to come across as insultingly as I did with that remark, and I apologize. I was just surprised that you had difficulty where I had none, but it’s true that experience makes a difference. Also, that was a sincere thanks for the info about the study. It may not be enough to satisfy some as evidence of the phenomenon, but to me it certainly does support it.

tassilo

One smart man demonstrated the meaning of sex to me with a finger and a donut hole. He put the finger in the hole and moved it back and forth. “That’s all there is to sex”, he said, “something like a rod moves in and out of something like a hole. All of the rest is just pictures in your head.”

Do we want to look at Barton’s pictures?

marcus

@31 Thanks John (probably still going to get strange looks anyway).

otrame

Some of the most erotic stuff I’ve ever read was gay porn. As many straight men find the idea of two women having sex erotic, I find the idea of two men having sex erotic.

Seriously, Mr. Barton et al., have you ever considered that many people, even straight old ladies such as myself, are not upset with the idea of anal sex? Maybe because many of us straight women have the organ that men use to urinate placed in our bodies during sex and we actually like it? (I have to admit I knew a young woman once who was completely freaked out by that fact and told me she had to work really hard to avoid thinking about that in order to let her husband anywhere near her. When I remarked that he had to rub his penis over the opening of her urethra she looked me like I’d kicked her favorite puppy.)

If you don’t like the idea of anal sex, then in the name of Thor, don’t do it.

There. All your problems fixed.

http://cheapsignals.blogspot.com Gretchen

tassilo said:

One smart man demonstrated the meaning of sex to me with a finger and a donut hole. He put the finger in the hole and moved it back and forth. “That’s all there is to sex”, he said, “something like a rod moves in and out of something like a hole. All of the rest is just pictures in your head.”

Uh…..that’s one of the worst descriptions of sex I’ve ever heard.

tassilo

Gretchen said:

One smart man demonstrated the meaning of sex to me with a finger and a donut hole. He put the finger in the hole and moved it back and forth. “That’s all there is to sex”, he said, “something like a rod moves in and out of something like a hole. All of the rest is just pictures in your head.”

Uh…..that’s one of the worst descriptions of sex I’ve ever heard.

What? It doesn’t correspond to your pictures?

kevinv

Heh, someone tried this on me and my response was “I think about gay sex just like I think about my parents having sex. Also gross but I don’t hate them for it.”

Nick Gotts (formerly KG)

democommie,

It’s way past time to retire this trope that all prominent homophobes are repressed homosexuals. There’s no evidence for it, and it’s actually a form of victim-blaming – even homophobia being presented as the fault of teh ghey.”

WTF?

There’s no evidence for it? Do you mean that there are no prominent homophobes that are repressed homosexuals?

No, of course I don’t. If I’d have meant that, I’d have said it. But the claim is wheeled out every fucking time a male homophobe makes some obnoxious public statement. What evidence do you have that either Barton or Green is homosexual?

Victim blaming? I have no problem with gay people, including gay people who are reluctant to self-identify as such–unless of course they are attacking gay people. When they’re doing that, they’re not victims or anyone but themselves.

When you simply assume that any particularly obnoxious homophobe is homosexual, as you do again here, you are blaming homosexuality and homosexuals for homophobia; that’s victim-blaming. (That goes for VeganAtheistWeirdo@16 and ArtK@32 too.)

VeganAtheistWeirdo

When you simply assume that any particularly obnoxious homophobe is homosexual,

Not any, or as I think you mean, every one. Just the ones who are obsessed with mansex. Some really are just bigoted hetero fuckwits. But those don’t tend to be the ones who dwell on what type of things men do to each other, because they’re not trying really really hard not to let on how much they wish they were doing those things, too.

you are blaming homosexuality and homosexuals for homophobia; that’s victim-blaming.

Nick, you seem to be confusing “homosexuality” with “deeply internalized bigotry and hatred, usually socialized from birth by the family unit and often reinforced in the community.” Who is the victim in the victim-blaming you cite?

Are you saying that an observation of the likelihood of hypocrisy being directly proportional to the level of expressed homophobia is placing the blame on one flavor of sexuality? Or are you suggesting that we shouldn’t point out this tendency because implying someone is gay is inherently insulting? I hope it’s not the latter. Maybe you can clarify.

lofgren

When you simply assume that any particularly obnoxious homophobe is homosexual, as you do again here, you are blaming homosexuality and homosexuals for homophobia; that’s victim-blaming.

Wow. No. That’s not victim blaming. Not even close. Victim blaming would be “Nobody would care about gay people if they weren’t always shoving their sexuality down our throats!”

What you’re describing is simply an attempt to rationalize the otherwise irrational obsessions of the perpetrators.

Many abusers were themselves victims of abuse. Blaming them for committing abuse instead of dealing with their pain in a healthier fashion is not victim-blaming. They are no less to blame for their crimes just because they were also once victims of another crime. Being the victim does not get you a perpetual “get out of blame” free card.

http://cheapsignals.blogspot.com Gretchen

tassilo said:

What? It doesn’t correspond to your pictures?

No, it doesn’t correspond to actual sex. Actual sex is different from that, and good sex is way different from that. I feel sorry for whoever sleeps with this “smart” guy you talked to.

eyeroll

Someone should tell these guys that anyone can do whatever they want in the privacy of their own bums.

gopiballava

Why don’t we have graphic descriptions of surgery and various medical diagnostic procedures as well? And slaughterhouses.

Let’s see how icky those things seem. I’ll be they sound really icky. So they should be banned, right?

Let’s ask some gay men what they think about heterosexual sex. Do some of them think its icky? I’ll bet they do. Is that an argument for banning it? No, absolutely not.

pacal

Zeno #26 asked:

I don’t remember where I first saw the comment, but someone once said, “Straight people and gay people are completely different from each other — except for what they do in bed.”

I think that the deceased Gay Activist Harry Hay said some thing like that if not in the same words:

But gay people are people who, maybe from birth, have known that they have a multidimensional quality which separates them from other people. And in this respect, you might say that gay people are almost opposite from everyone else, except in bed. Because after all, since the sexual revolution, everyone does everything to everybody. We are different from everyone else, except in bed, I think.

(From A collection of Interviews called Word is Out, which was also a documentary film, pp. 244-246.)

raven

Why don’t we have graphic descriptions of surgery and various medical diagnostic procedures as well? And slaughterhouses.

It was gruesome descriptions of people like David Barton that started me on my way out of xianity.

A religion that produces intellectually and morally bankrupt leaders like that was almost certainly just a fairy tale.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000120162025 amypfeffer

D. C. Sessions, I have to ask: what pun?

thanks!

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1360322113 aaronbaker

They dressed him up in diapers? More than I wanted to know, WAY more than I wanted to know.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1360322113 aaronbaker

It’s way past time to retire this trope that all prominent homophobes are repressed homosexuals.

Exactly right.

tbp1

@37—I didn’t take any offense at all. I meant what I said literally. My google skills really aren’t that good because I use it pretty rudimentarily so far and tend to overcomplicate things. My thanks for the link were sincere. Sorry if I came off as snippy.

http://polrant@blogspot.com democommie

“But the claim is wheeled out every fucking time a male homophobe makes some obnoxious public statement.”

No. It’s. Not.

“When you simply assume that any particularly obnoxious homophobe is homosexual, as you do again here, you are blaming homosexuality and homosexuals for homophobia; that’s victim-blaming. (That goes for VeganAtheistWeirdo@16 and ArtK@32 too.)”

Fuck you, you moron; I know what I’m thinking and it’s not what you’re implying.

“It’s way past time to retire this trope that all prominent homophobes are repressed homosexuals.”

Well, so what is it, none of them are, some of them are but not enough for you to think it matters? What? Give us a number or something.

You make an assertion that is without any supporting data and criticize others for not adhering to your concept of what’s okay or not okay?

mikecline

These guys’ obsessions with other people having sex is sad. Them believing that their all-knowing, all-seeing God designed everything to be perfect, yet easily corrupted by people and evil, is bizarre and would be hilarious if not for the fact they influence people. Add that to their theocratic bent and these fuckers are a disturbing menace.

matty1

Someone defined fundamentalism as the belief that there is an all powerful, universe spanning entity with a deep and abiding interest in your genitals.

Now that’s kinky.

matty1

I think I understand what Nick Gotts is getting at, though I’m not sure if I agree.

The argument seems to be that when you equate homophobe with closeted homosexual in a general sense you are close to claiming “attacking other gays is a bad thing gay people tend to do” and this itself feeds into a kind of background homophobia where gays as a group are blamed for attacking each other.

As I say I don’t accept this largely because I don’t think a criticism of hypocrisy is the same as attacking the thing someone is being hypocritical about but I am trying to understand.

=8)-DX

when you get the specifics of what homosexuality activity is, even decent people find that absolutely reprehensible and disgusting

I know this maybe a bit nitpicky, but is he really admitting that decent people have no problem with homosexuals? And that the only way someone half decent could have anything against gays is by concentrating on graphic depictions of anal sex?

It’s a total admission of the only argument against sexual minorities – that of the ick-factor. I wonder if these people would be surprised that there are plenty of us perfectly “normal” straight people who, after spending half an hour on the internet with our eyes open aren’t really all that icked out by the majority of sex acts (you put a cucumber where? Oh, right, the lube helps with that).

Nick Gotts (formerly KG)

Testing.

Nick Gotts (formerly KG)

Apologies if this appears more than once – I’ve tried posting it before and it hasn’t appeared.

Are you saying that an observation of the likelihood of hypocrisy being directly proportional to the level of expressed homophobia is placing the blame on one flavor of sexuality? – VeganAtheistWeirdo

Exactly.

But the claim is wheeled out every fucking time a male homophobe makes some obnoxious public statement.

No. It’s. Not.

So, why did you wheel it out in this case? I notice you didn’t respond to my question, so I’ll ask it again: what evidence do you have that either Barton or Green is homosexual?

Fuck you, you moron; I know what I’m thinking and it’s not what you’re implying.

Intent isn’t magic, gormless one.

You make an assertion that is without any supporting data

Your lack of self-awareness is hilarious. What supporting data do you have for your assertion that Barton andor Green is homosexual? Oh, yeah, the supporting data is their homophobia, right?

unemployedphilosopher

Look, I’m a fan of kinky people. Not so much myself, but still: have fun, everybody. That said, there are some things that should not be attempted by inexperienced kinksters, and some things that should never, ever, ever be attempted (knife play comes to mind, for reasons that I’ll never tell you). Outside those things, I just don’t understand why anybody cares.

http://polrant@blogspot.com democommie

Nick Gotts:

“So, why did you wheel it out in this case? I notice you didn’t respond to my question, so I’ll ask it again: what evidence do you have that either Barton or Green is homosexual?”

What evidence do we ever have of anyone being anything before it becomes public knowledge?

We have plenty of evidence that stridently homophobic legislators, clerics and others are, in fact, gay. That makes them hypocrites, not GAY hypocrites, just hypocrites

“Your lack of self-awareness is hilarious. What supporting data do you have for your assertion that Barton andor Green is homosexual? Oh, yeah, the supporting data is their homophobia, right?”

I’m sorry, did I miss the part where I said that I knew Barton was gay? Gosh, no, I didn’t. I wrote:

Should never be attempted? Why? The relatively higher risk? Should skydiving, jetboat racing, and cave diving also not be done by anyone because of the risks outweigh the rewards?

You would suggests that informed adults should not ever do anything risky for fun?

I understand that you’re only advocating avoidance, and not suggesting that adults should be prevented from doing these things, but I’m curious if you are suggesting that risky recreation in general should be avoided, or just risky sexual recreation.

scienceavenger

Judging from many of my college experiences with formerly religious women, I’d blame a repressed sexual upbringing via religion to be a major cause of obsession with kink. And thank the gods for that.

Nick Gotts (formerly KG)

You’re telling me I blame gays for homophobia.

Indeed I am – because that’s exactly what you do.

http://polrant@blogspot.com democommie

@67:

Fuck you, Gotts. You don’t like what I write so you pin the “blame” label on me?

Fuck you, you lying scumbag, piece-of-shit.

Now, why don’t you see if you can work up some outrage and blame for victimizing lying scumbag pieces-of-shit.

valhar2000

reddiaperbaby1942:

Not necessarily. On a couple of occasions I’ve watched gay porn movies to test the adage that goes “deep down, everyone is bi”. I disproved it by not being aroused at all, but I wasn’t grossed out by them either. I even learned a few things.

VeganAtheistWeirdo

Nick, I don’t think I can be any clearer than this: it’s not about Barton or Green being gay.

There is a demonstrated tendency for self-loathing gays to behave and speak homophobically. Pointing this out is not blaming teh ghey. It is blaming homophobia. I don’t think any of us give a fuck whether these guys are gay or not, and none of us have asserted it as fact. Observations about human behavior are not the problem. Refraining from making this observation isn’t going to make homophobia go away. On the contrary, pointing it out may make autohomophobes in positions of power think twice about using that power to oppress others for what they wish they could eradicate in themselves, since it reaffirms that no one will be fooled by their pretense.

http://motherwell.livejournal.com/ Raging Bee

It’s way past time to retire this trope that all prominent homophobes are repressed homosexuals…

I agree. There are studies claiming to show a link between homophobia and repressed homosexual desires, but at least some of those studies have been questioned as to their methodology and validity; and claims about another person’s unexpressed desires and feelings are pretty much untestable anyway. Whether or not these studies are valid, they tend to be greatly misused in public debate to automatically insinuate that anyone who says anything bad about gays must be gay themselves — an irrelevant and untestable claim (bordering on shut-uppery) that really doesn’t do anything to advance the debate. If someone is wrong, he’s wrong whether or not he’s gay; and it’s his wrongness, not his gayness, that’s relevant to the rest of us.

http://motherwell.livejournal.com/ Raging Bee

There is a demonstrated tendency for self-loathing gays to behave and speak homophobically.

That doesn’t mean that all people who behave and speak homophobically are gay.

dingojack

“…. claims about another person’s unexpressed desires and feelings are pretty much untestable anyway.’

Why not ask Nick? He seems to know exactly the secret motives of everyone else, even trough a modem.

Dingo

CaitieCat

And in any case, the homophobia comes in because it sounds very much like you’re saying they’re lesser than other people because of their implied gayness. It’s no more okay than is calling someone a “faggot” because you dislike their ideas or behaviours. If you weren’t imputing that there’s something wrong with being gay, then what’s the point of saying that they probably are gay? Did you mean it as a compliment (somehow, i doubt this)?

Homophobia. Clear, unmistakable. You’re using “gayness” as a slur. You might want to think about why defending that’s so important to you.

kellyw.

Um, hello? Actual gay woman, here. Every single time a homophobe opens their mouth, a straight person “accuses” the homophobe of being gay. I got news for ya, straight people: you are being homophobic as fuck every time you make that assumption. Why? Because gay and bisexual people are not uniquely homophobic, that’s why. Plenty of straight people dish out that shit every day and they don’t get called on their homophobia, but sure as shit the news media is there to highlight every outing of a gay homophobe. No wonder the general public thinks homophobes are gay. It’s a free pass for straight people: “Seeeeeeee? All that discrimination they face? Homophobes are gay! Gay people do this to themselves!”