Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the
world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to
over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a
wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history,
humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced
features available, you will need to register first. Registration is
absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

So "arigato gozaimasu" is "thank you" and "arigato gozaimashita" is "thanked you"??? Now you know why this poor ole country boy gave up... Returning now to my Jeff Foxworthy picture book...

Well "Arigatou" derives from "arigatai", originally meaning "rare, precious", and thus to the modern meaning "grateful, thankful". "Arigatou gozaimasu" is a rather archaic form essentially meaning "(what you do/have done/will do for me) is rare and precious (and thus I am grateful)". "Arigatou gozaimashita" essentially means "(what you did for me) was rare and precious (and thus I am grateful)".

So basically you use "Arigatou gozaimasu" for something someone is doing or will do, and "Arigatou gozaimashita" for something they already did. Although "Arigatou gozaimasu" can also be used in that situation. My understanding is that the Japanese people collectively decided to do this just to screw with newbies to Japanese.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer

When I was a teenager I tried to study Japanese as self taught student. The hardest part was giving a meaning to a phrase. Many times you could translate the whole phrase, but not catch the real meaning, or misunderstand it.

I have always seen the Onegaishimasu as the English "Pleae". If you turn towards a dojo mate and tell him please it can be meant by you as in "please, step on the mat", "please, train with me", "please, help me learn", "please, I am a beginner, don't hurt me too much hee hee"...and so on. I have always seen as Onegaishimasu the same way, it is in the mind of who says it the meaning hidden in it.
Same way I gave my interpretation of Doomoarigatoogozaimasuta. Even tho literally it should mean "I Thanked You", I have always meant it as "I thank you for what you just did".

Joshua, I have a question. By what you said about Onegaishimasu, is it correct to say that it has a similar meaning of Doozo?

Joshua, I have a question. By what you said about Onegaishimasu, is it correct to say that it has a similar meaning of Doozo?

Just "Josh", onegai shimasu.

Doozo and onegai shimasu are quite different, meaning-wise.

One use of "doozo" is an intensifier in requests and prayers. In this way it might seem similar to "onegai shimasu", since it's so often related to "negau", humbly requesting or praying for something. But it's merely in an intensifier, essentially meaning "somehow, in some way".

"Doozo" is used in this manner, then, when offering someone something. Imagine you offer someone some food. In Japanese society, you downplay the quality of whatever you are giving someone, so you say, "Doozo omeshiagari kudasai". Translated somewhat stilted, "Please partake of this somehow." From this kind of usage it's become now commonplace in any kind of situation where you offer or give something to another person, or indeed, just handing someone something.

Me: So-and-so-san, could you hand me that stapler?
So-and-so-san (grabbing the stapler and holding it out in my direction): Hai, doozo.
Me: A, doomo.

And so now, when one says "Doozo tabete kudasai" (please eat this), it doesn't so much have the sense of "somehow, in some way", but rather, "Go ahead and eat, please!"

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer

So "arigato gozaimasu" is "thank you" and "arigato gozaimashita" is "thanked you"??? Now you know why this poor ole country boy gave up... Returning now to my Jeff Foxworthy picture book...

Let's see if I can translate this.

In Jeff Foxworthy terms.

masu, as in arigato gozaimasu would be if a relative came up to you and gave you ten dollars that they owed you. You'd say, right then, "Shiiiiiiit, 'bout time ya paid me back, Cousin/Uncle/Grandfather Slim." Translated -- arigato gozaimasu. (English - Thank you for repaying me right now.)

Now, let's say that yesterday your neighbor helped you round up five cows that had strayed beyond your fence. The neighbor had something to do so you didn't get to talk to him after you put the cows back in your field. You see the neighbor the next day and say, "Hey Billy Bob, ya'll sure got me out of a pickle tha ot'er day." Translation -- arigato gozaimashita. (English - Thank you for helping me yesterday)

nice translation mark.....so we have past tense and present of thank you very much but what does onegaishimasu mean in the context of Aikido and in accord to rank and forms of speaking in a cultured kind of way in regards to the mat ,thank you? Josh? I think you already had a nice say on this...but it seems we are moving towards comedy.....I can handle that wait let me get another beer!

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!

Onegaishimasu: "please, to share this practice..." That to me also means: "please, to share this moment". So it is an excellent honorific to use when writing letters, answering the phone, etc. I usually accompany it with a slight standing bow. It is a true way of bringing aikido into the world off the mat, which brings it to yourself as well.

masu, as in arigato gozaimasu would be if a relative came up to you and gave you ten dollars that they owed you. You'd say, right then, "Shiiiiiiit, 'bout time ya paid me back, Cousin/Uncle/Grandfather Slim." Translated -- arigato gozaimasu. (English - Thank you for repaying me right now.)

Now, let's say that yesterday your neighbor helped you round up five cows that had strayed beyond your fence. The neighbor had something to do so you didn't get to talk to him after you put the cows back in your field. You see the neighbor the next day and say, "Hey Billy Bob, ya'll sure got me out of a pickle tha ot'er day." Translation -- arigato gozaimashita. (English - Thank you for helping me yesterday)

Mark

Here is an example commonly used in day-to-day Japanese. My nephew is staying with me and we spent a few days in Tokyo. At every station we heard this refrain on the Shinkansen.

As the train left Tokyo Station, and all the other stations on the route:Shinkansen go-riyou itadakimashite, arigatou gozaimasu.
Thank you for using the Shinkansen.

Shortly before the train stopped at each station:Shinkansen go-riyou itadakimashite, arigatou gozaimashita.
Thank you for using (=having used) the Shinkansen.

Onegaishimasu: "please, to share this practice..." That to me also means: "please, to share this moment". So it is an excellent honorific to use when writing letters, answering the phone, etc. I usually accompany it with a slight standing bow. It is a true way of bringing aikido into the world off the mat, which brings it to yourself as well.

In gassho

Mark

This is exactly how I would see it! But then again off the mat it holds different meaning based on context and by no means am I an expert I have only lived in Japan 2 years but if I wanted to make it simple I would say that it means "lets do" and applied to different situations it would take on a different meaning. Josh is more informed on this level.

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!

Onegaishimasu always reminds me of a phrase I learned when my family moved to a town in northern Finland when I was 9. Kids up there will ask each other, on the playground or coming to the front door "Will you begin me?" ("Alakkonää mua?") and yes, it's sounds just as odd and grammatically incorrect in Finnish. Anyway, what they mean is "will you come out and play with me?" and that's the same feel I have with onegaishimasu when I bow to my partner.

I say it to whomever I'm training with as we begin; finishing, I say "Arigato Gozaimashita".

I've noticed a trend for saying "Onegai Shimasu" both before and after training. I have a couple of students from an Iwama dojo who do that and also say it to me after I've offered a suggestion on their technique. (I'd be interested in comments from people who do this.) I always say thank you in that situation myself.

In Japan, it's used whenever a request is being made and then having been made and granted, used again, i.e., they don't say thank you at that point as we do in English, they repeat "Onegai Shimasu" (in the logic of Jpn protocol, thanking someone at this point is presumptuous somehow).

I say it to whomever I'm training with as we begin; finishing, I say "Arigato Gozaimashita".

I've noticed a trend for saying "Onegai Shimasu" both before and after training. I have a couple of students from an Iwama dojo who do that and also say it to me after I've offered a suggestion on their technique. (I'd be interested in comments from people who do this.) I always say thank you in that situation myself.

In Japan, it's used whenever a request is being made and then having been made and granted, used again, i.e., they don't say thank you at that point as we do in English, they repeat "Onegai Shimasu" (in the logic of Jpn protocol, thanking someone at this point is presumptuous somehow).

In reply to your question regarding Iwama dojo reigi: when we were in the dojo under the tutelage of Saito Morihiro Sensei, the person who received instructions or corrections from Sensei during the class would bow (zarei) and say "arigatou gozaimshita." The person's partner would bow as well (zarei) and say "onegaishimasu."

If the person who was the partner to the person who was being corrected wanted to, this person could also say "arigatou gozaimashita" instead of "onegaishimasu."

Other trainees who were in the vicinity of the people who were receiving the corrections would sit down while Sensei was demonstrating, to make room for him, and show respect. These people would also say "onegaishimsu" when he was done with his corrections. This is the equivalent of when Sensei would show a technique for the entire class, and then say "Hai, dozo" as a sign for us to begin training. All the practitioners would bow and say "onegaishimasu," before beginning practice.

I believe that the tendency for some Iwama practitioners to say "onegaishimasu" when they are finished training with their partner, and are bowing "out", may come from the abovementioned situation, and a misunderstanding of what to say and when. In this kind of situation you had one person (the one who received the correction) saying “arigatou gozaimashita” and a whole bunch of people saying “onegaishimasu.” It is possible that foreign students thought that they should use what most people were saying, namely “onegaishimasu” in situations like these.
The Japanese practitioners in the dojo would not finish a training session by saying say "onegaishimasu." I try to explain to students here in Europe who finish their training and say "onegaishimasu" that this is a phrase for beginning your practice with someone, and not a means to thank them. It actually indicates that you want to continue to practice!

Another possible reason for using "onegaishimasu" in other settings could be that people equate it with the ubiquitous term "osu." There could be a cross-over influence from “osu” since this is used for just about anything. I remember that Inagaki Sensei’s students would always say “osu” in the Iwama dojo, and Sensei finally told them that you don’t use “osu” in the dojo here-to which they all replied with a loud “OSU!” A great dojo moment!

Mishearing may also be the culprit as well. Said in the quick and rough way that many Japanese budo folk tend to use, "arigatou gozaimasu" can sound a lot like "onegai shimasu." Particularly in the Kanto area, where "g" is often pronounced like the "ng" in "singer". As I said, in my dojo "onegai shimasu" often comes out as "Ngai shmassss." "Arigatou gozaimasu" often comes out "Ar'ga't'g'zaimasu". (Needless to say, it's not easy to transcribe!)

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer

I agree with your point also, regarding mishearing. Actually it's not even mishearing, it's the alternative pronunciation, as you mentioned. I have heard some pretty funny ones, and by native speakers as well; ranging from "..shmas!" to a bellowed "Yoooosu!" (clearly leaning towards our aforementioned ubiquitous "osu!").
Not to mention the tendency for some non-Japanese to pronounce the "gae" in onegaeshimasu as "gei" (Japanese pronunciation stated), creating a sentence that sounds llike something spoken by Yoda - have fum enterpreting what he might be saying:-)

Ah, 'tis so good to be in the company of people concerned with courtesy. In case any one else has noticed too, we're in a society(American) that is tragically short on politeness and courtesy.
I've paid alot of attention to this subject because courtesy is part of the backbone of healthy relationships. So here goes my spiel:

Oneigaishima(su) is the future tense of the word thank you. It means thanks in advance(a.k.a."please") for what we're about to do together. Japanese Hierarchy can be brushed aside at this point. Agreements to train are mutual relationships(you are the universe and so is your partner) and the voicing of a request is only appropriately responded to with the exact same courtesy, 'onegaishimasu'. The subtlety with which this request (eye gestures, a grunt, a nod) is made is as subtle as all language and takes an effort to gain nuance The words are signals that you will be treated with deserved respect for your offering. This applies in all training.
It is very important to understand the words that you are using so that you may use them appropriately. Onegaishimasu is not interchangable with Domo Arigato gozaimashita strictly based on word tense. Gozaima(shita) is past tense and refers to what has already happened.Onegaishima(su) is future tense.
As for the amount of use of courtesy to use (i.e. Rei etc.), "when in doubt, bow": . If you have a teacher who demands special treatment or exclusive courtesies you may regard these as 'red flags of the ego' . Pay close attention!!!
If we are to locate our real selves through training then we need to offer as much courtesy to ourslves as to others. Most of us need a little help in the self esteem department and being treated with basic courtesy is a most beautiful way to achieve good spirit. Some other great Aikidoka once said, " Love your neighbor as yourself." I just can't seem to remember who said it.

Ah, 'tis so good to be in the company of people concerned with courtesy. In case any one else has noticed too, we're in a society(American) that is tragically short on politeness and courtesy.

Well, if you'd just post where you live, I'll make sure to stay away from that area. (Just to be clear, this sentence is meant in jest.)

I find that where I am now (WV), there's a good bit of politeness and courtesy. So, no, I guess i haven't noticed. Let me give you some examples.

If there's construction or an accident where one lane of two is closed, we all get into that one lane about 1-2 miles before it closes. The only people you see rushing up to the closure point and trying to horn in are out-of-state people.

People here will come to a dead stop on a road, no matter who's behind them, and let someone on a side road out.

We wave at strangers. Strangers will say hello to you.

If someone bumps into your cart at WalMart, they'll say excuse me.

When a traffic light goes green, no one blows their horn (If they do, they're from out of state). That light will turn red again and still no one will blow their horn. Instead, people will get out and check on the person in the lead vehicle to make sure they are okay.

You'll see people hold the door open for other people (and not just for women).

Course, we get called all sorts of names like redneck, hillbilly, and backwoods hick. But, really, they're just words and I wouldn't trade the civility, courtesy, and politeness here just to move to a place where I'd get called progressive, intelligent, or liberal and yet find a great lack of civility, courtesy, and politeness.

Mark, all of those "out of state" drivers you write about... they're going through basic training and then advanced levels of subtle irriatation here in the Valley of the Sun before going out into the world to spread their skills. (tongue slightly in my cheek)

(Shochugeiko this year will be right down your alley if you can make it.)

Mark, all of those "out of state" drivers you write about... they're going through basic training and then advanced levels of subtle irriatation here in the Valley of the Sun before going out into the world to spread their skills. (tongue slightly in my cheek)

(Shochugeiko this year will be right down your alley if you can make it.)

LOL.

I'd love to make Shochugeiko, sensei. But won't be able to this year. As a sort of consolation prize for myself, I am looking at making at least one of these three: OKC, Portland, Indiana. I'm really pushing for Portland. Some good people out there that I haven't seen in far too long.

Well, if you'd just post where you live, I'll make sure to stay away from that area. (Just to be clear, this sentence is meant in jest.)

I find that where I am now (WV), there's a good bit of politeness and courtesy. So, no, I guess i haven't noticed. Let me give you some examples.

If there's construction or an accident where one lane of two is closed, we all get into that one lane about 1-2 miles before it closes. The only people you see rushing up to the closure point and trying to horn in are out-of-state people.

People here will come to a dead stop on a road, no matter who's behind them, and let someone on a side road out.

We wave at strangers. Strangers will say hello to you.

If someone bumps into your cart at WalMart, they'll say excuse me.

When a traffic light goes green, no one blows their horn (If they do, they're from out of state). That light will turn red again and still no one will blow their horn. Instead, people will get out and check on the person in the lead vehicle to make sure they are okay.

You'll see people hold the door open for other people (and not just for women).

Course, we get called all sorts of names like redneck, hillbilly, and backwoods hick. But, really, they're just words and I wouldn't trade the civility, courtesy, and politeness here just to move to a place where I'd get called progressive, intelligent, or liberal and yet find a great lack of civility, courtesy, and politeness.

But that's me.

Mark

Dear Mark, No one calls me progressive, liberal and intelligent and gets away with it.

I'm with Tarik, the rude people around here aren't the locals; and the locals, like myself, are considered hillbillies, rednecks, dumb, slow, etc.
Don't let national stereotypes sway you either. The locals are just as happy and civil on the left coast as they are anywhere. Now, get outta my way, I got granola to purchase.
[b]
Please check out the thread for 'breathing life into the curriculum'. It is a video expose' of the program I'm running in the schools here.