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Failure to group: Is it my class? my rank? or me?

I'm currently a level 5 warg, about half-way to 6. With some exceptions, I have found it virtually impossible to get an invite into any organized raid or group. I will post something like "R5 warg lfg/r" in OOC when I am standing in the middle of a group, with no result. When calls to PST go out to join a newly forming raid, I will send in my tell, and usually get no response. (To be fair, once I heard back that the leader was looking for heals, which I appreciated.) When I follow along with a large group, and help out in a fight, I will try "say"ing that I would welcome an invite. Nothing.

I understand that leaders want to be careful about group composition, and that class balance is important. I understand that at least some groups are tribe-based, and that many many others are made up of people who know and have relied on each other. I know that, faced with a choice, you should take a higher rank over a lower. Finally, as a warg, I'm fine about slogging my way up the tiers, doing dailies, joining packs (when they pop up), and snipping and biting at the margins of other people's raids to get whatever scraps of infamy I can.

But I'd like to know whether this will be permanent. So, more specifically:

-- is it my class? Are wargs simply not preferred in raids or groups? Should I expect always to be the last person selected?

-- is it my rank? Is there a level at which invites become more likely?

-- is it me? Have I already established such a reputation as a terrible noob that I will never get an invite (no way to know)? Is there a rumor (not true) that I am a spy? Does my breath smell (remember: I'm a warg! and if you're not, you're an orc!)? And most importantly, if it's me, how can I know and what can I do to turn it around?

Ultimately, tiering up is easier as part of a good raid. I would like to be part of that. If creeps thought a bit, it would make sense to include a few levelling creeps in every raid, just to keep the creep stock improving. So, does anyone have any advice?

I dont play on Brandywine so I cannot comment on anything specific to your server but I can offer a few observations. First is that rank 5 on any class tends to be on the low end of the power curve. Second, that many raid leaders on silverlode express the opinion that multiple wargs are not needed in a well configured raid. So it is likely that there are higher ranked people that have already gotten all the group invites that are likely to go out to wargs. The exception to that would be a warg pack. I know you can often find wargs willing to group up together.

You should start by looking for a tribe that is willing to help lower ranked people. Also I highly recommend that you put a large amount of effort into maxing audacity and getting as many of your maps as you can. Both of these things will make you a better group member so that once you start getting invites you will keep getting them.

Wargs are generally considered to be not that interesting to group with and at rank 5, you are just a smidge below where you become really useful, especially if you don't have PTW skills from the store.

Another and very important factor is that the moors on a lot of servers are incredibly cliquish, if you don't know people you are not likely to get an invite because people tend to not be happy sharing their infamy. I play a filer and I figured being a healer I would get invites left and right, but not until I started just running into raids and healing like a bugger did I get invites (this was before healing gave infamy).

The best thing you can do is get into a big tribe and get some connections. When things get hectic a lot of raid leaders prefer not to have group members who have to be told what to do, so if you can run in a group that allows you to learn the ins and outs of craiding it will really help you get into groups.

A valid alternative for you might be wargpacks - if you can find other wargs who can group up and flank fraids or gank people running back back from rez.

I have to wonder how much of the issue is server-specific. Like Qwyxzl says, on Silverlode creepside is less clique-ish now more than ever, so wargs tend to get invites, especially at r6 and above.

Warg packs flourish on Silverlode BUT they will rarely engage even or greater numbers, not that it matters here.

I would try to get known among the warg community first, post pertinent info in OOC and get seen. Sometimes it's just about people being familiar with you and recognizing the name.

On freepside on Silver when a new name (that I haven't seen in the moors before) joins the group something way in the dark corners of my mind mumbles "spy".

My experience is that I can (and do) solo a lot but I will always get invited to a raid, even if I don't ask, but after 7 years I am considered a fixture. Fixtures get invites, r5's could have been r0's just a week ago. get seen, show yourself as a valuable contributor and a fearless fighter, you'll get invites... or roll a warg on Slode so I can set fire to your fur and sizzle your drool!

Thank you for all these replies: incredibly helpful perspective. I figured that I would need to work on basics for a while: doing dailies; building audacity; developing a good build; getting maps; getting familiar with locations and routes; and just generally being seen to contribute. It helps to know that R5 is still a little underpowered (and maybe even R6-7), that wargs as a class sometimes don't have the value (in a raid leader's mind) that other classes might, and that trust and relationship building matter. I will continue to work on all these.

Running warg packs makes good sense . . . and I mean, running them, as in inviting people in and working out how to make them effective. If a more experienced pack leader is operating, I'd rely on that person, but otherwise, it makes sense to learn the art of target ID and the discipline of group focus. I like the idea of flanking craids as pack and ganking stragglers or returners.

I don't have any reason to suspect that Brandywine is particularly bad about any of this: it feels like a combination of things, as you all have said. SO off to more scouting and mischief making . . .

I have to wonder how much of the issue is server-specific. Like Qwyxzl says, on Silverlode creepside is less clique-ish now more than ever, so wargs tend to get invites, especially at r6 and above.

Warg packs flourish on Silverlode BUT they will rarely engage even or greater numbers, not that it matters here.

I would try to get known among the warg community first, post pertinent info in OOC and get seen. Sometimes it's just about people being familiar with you and recognizing the name.

On freepside on Silver when a new name (that I haven't seen in the moors before) joins the group something way in the dark corners of my mind mumbles "spy".

My experience is that I can (and do) solo a lot but I will always get invited to a raid, even if I don't ask, but after 7 years I am considered a fixture. Fixtures get invites, r5's could have been r0's just a week ago. get seen, show yourself as a valuable contributor and a fearless fighter, you'll get invites... or roll a warg on Slode so I can set fire to your fur and sizzle your drool!

Right now grouping on creepside is about as easy as I have ever seen it. There are multiple people that will accept all levels of players. We were actually discussing this a few nights ago. New players need help to rank. They need rank to get better skills. So if you help them rank then there are more creeps that can actually help push back the freep hordes

-- is it my class? Are wargs simply not preferred in raids or groups? Should I expect always to be the last person selected?

-- is it my rank? Is there a level at which invites become more likely?

-- is it me? Have I already established such a reputation as a terrible noob that I will never get an invite (no way to know)? Is there a rumor (not true) that I am a spy? Does my breath smell (remember: I'm a warg! and if you're not, you're an orc!)? And most importantly, if it's me, how can I know and what can I do to turn it around?

Ultimately, tiering up is easier as part of a good raid. I would like to be part of that. If creeps thought a bit, it would make sense to include a few levelling creeps in every raid, just to keep the creep stock improving. So, does anyone have any advice?

Partially yes its your class, more so your rank. Wargs pop easily so it can be a burden to heal them. Its also server specific some raids don't need wargs they have numbers, others need scouts. Get your maps ask for invites and offer to scout, even if it means your out of group points. You'll get more invites if youre an exceptional scout and make good call outs, I don't know a raid leader on creepside who dosent appreciate having eyes on lugs when hes clearing out the first floor of TR to set up a farm. Rank has is also part of the problem, ranks are cheap now. If you aren't R6 that usually means you don't have full aud, R6 used to be a bench mark not so much anymore. Keep ranking, keep sniping the edges and doing what you can. I don't know about your reputation but remember wargs are unique creep toons. They are built to group with other wargs, your skills compliment one another. Look for warg packs, but remember a good scout is an asset to any raid. Be the best scout on your server.

Ultimately, tiering up is easier as part of a good raid. I would like to be part of that. If creeps thought a bit, it would make sense to include a few levelling creeps in every raid, just to keep the creep stock improving. So, does anyone have any advice?

If you are wanting to be in the raids on Brandy my advice would be to reroll another class , gain some ranks(6 or 7 at least) and try to get into a good tribe.

If you dont want to go that route then try to form some wargpacks when you are online and who knows , maybe when you get some more ranks under your belt you may get your shot in one of those raids. Just remember you will be expected to scout enemy locations most of the time.

It's probably the fact you are:
-rank 5, which is a low rank, often means you don't have maxed (13) audacity.
-a warg, wargs are squishy and don't contribute much to a group other then scouting the map.
-not in the tribe of the raidleader

First off, as others have said, it's more of a server thing. Brandywine is hands down the most populated server. While that can be good for lots of action, it comes with a price. Raids tend to fill up fast, leaving a lot of people waiting to get in. It really is, as you've suspected, a supply and demand thing. Since raid leaders can get the exact raid composition they want due to having so many creeps to choose from, they can be choosier on how many wargs they'll let in.

Sadly, current Brandywine raid leaders don't bother with waiting lists. Six years ago when my warg was literally green (they used the green-dot/blue-dot/red-dot system back then), I remember using /beg emotes while I waited for the chance to join a raid. (You didn't get infamy for PvE quests back then. There was only one way for a noobie to rank!) The leaders would do the same old, "PST with rank and class", but they were kind enough to keep a waiting list. That way, when people left, they could invite others. Many raid leaders were kind enough to let in a few greenies (but only a few). It seems raid leaders and their assists these days have lost the fine art of pen and paper list management.

Still, since you are a warg, you have other alternatives. Don't feel bad about only getting into warg packs. Warg packs rock! Perhaps other creeps see us as xenophobic, but the fact that wargs are fed scraps from the raids is precisely why we stick so tightly together. Back when I was on Brandywine, most of my ranks came more from warg packs (in fact, I'd call many of them warg RAIDS) than they did from mixed creep raids. Of course, virtually every warg was in Savage Fangs back then, and we ran packs round the clock. In the earliest days of Savage Fangs, and it's predecessor, Feral, we mostly camped rez circles and GV. The infamy came in slowly, but steadily. Eventually, there came a few updates where wargs could go head-to-head with freep raids. Those days might yet come again, so hang in there. You'll know they've hit when freeps start complaining on the forums that wargs are OP again.

I'd recommend you either get into a warg tribe, or start one if you can't find one. Invite every last warg on the server, and start running regular packs. All a warg needs to pull even a bit of weight in a pack is enhanced stealth, making warg packs the most inclusive of all groups and raids. There's nothing like the camaraderie of wargs to ease pain of ranking the slow way.

And whatever you do, don't scout for free. You deserve infamy for your work. Don't let those raid leaders abuse your stealth. (At least now you get credit anywhere on the map if you're in a raid. In the old days in a raid, a warg had to be in range of the kills for credit. Scouting really stank back then. You had to be careful that the raid leader didn't forget about you, or just flat out abuse your willingness to scout.)

Of course, you could always roll a defiler or warleader, but they're just so UGLY. (No offense to all the defilers and warleaders who have kept me alive over the years.) Enjoy your rich coat of fluffy fur.

Sadly, current Brandywine raid leaders don't bother with waiting lists. Six years ago when my warg was literally green (they used the green-dot/blue-dot/red-dot system back then), I remember using /beg emotes while I waited for the chance to join a raid. (You didn't get infamy for PvE quests back then. There was only one way for a noobie to rank!) The leaders would do the same old, "PST with rank and class", but they were kind enough to keep a waiting list. That way, when people left, they could invite others. Many raid leaders were kind enough to let in a few greenies (but only a few). It seems raid leaders and their assists these days have lost the fine art of pen and paper list management.

Umm, yes we do, I am sure myself and at least 2 other major leaders use waiting lists. Try getting your facts right before talking **** about us.

Umm, yes we do, I am sure myself and at least 2 other major leaders use waiting lists. Try getting your facts right before talking **** about us.

Well, my apologies, then. It must have simply been the time of day when I logged in last. Just the usual, "PST rank 5+", but no waiting list for the greenies and leftovers. I'm glad to see some raid leaders still remember basic ettiquette.

I have been playing moors for a couple of years on a casual basis. As another writer mentioned Brandywine is a double edged sword in terms of action. On one hand there is always some kind of action going on but on the other hand because there is a population you may not make it in to any groups/raids.
My advice is get yorself a working mike (mine is broken at the moment) and form your own groups. You may attract many low ranks but this can be a good way to have fun and learn more.
There is a server element. A few months ago I decided that I really wanted to have my freepside creepside on seperate servers. So I started trialling a few servers for their environment. I found Landroval had a fantastic creepside community. I am based in NZ so am usually on low peak hours, even so it was easy to find a group. On the rare occaision I join in the peak hours Landroval usually seems to have open groups.

My comments would be (based on my experience as a R8 Warg and another R9 on Snowbourn):

~ Generally, there is a bit of elitism and a bit of nepotism. Sometimes it is who you know....so ask yourself how you can be useful/visible to people who don't know you (calling out the Fraid location etc);

~ A lot of players expect Wargs to have a 'solo' mentality (this includes other Warg players) and it is often true;

~ Get your audacity to 13 before expecting an invite into any of the more established/regular raids;

~ Something about 'R6' makes people see you as a lot more useful than 'R5';

~ Asking for a Warg pack is often quicker, easier and more responsive than waiting for that raid slot (and a lot of Craids appreciate that Warg pack);

~ Don't take it personally. Wargs are just bottom of the 'must have in my raid' list unless the raid leader has a solid understanding/need of Warg abilities;

~ Just because you're a Warg it doesn't mean you're the only one being ignored in OOC (see the comment about nepotism above).

I can probably number on one hand the good raids my Warg has managed to get into. My defiler - no problem! If it's becoming a demoralising pain in the rear roll a secondary Creep just to restore some balance to your playing and increase your engagement with other Creeps. Rank, audacity and elitism will still apply though!

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Generally, there is a bit of elitism and a bit of nepotism. Sometimes it is who you know....so ask yourself how you can be useful/visible to people who don't know you (calling out the Fraid location etc)

I have found this to be true in my experience as well. Like it or not the Ettenmoors is an old boys network when it comes to getting into raids. If you are in good standing with that network then frankly you could be playing a three legged arthritic donkey for all it would matter, you would still get into the raid.

A lot of players expect Wargs to have a 'solo' mentality (this includes other Warg players) and it is often true

Again I would agree you. To make a sweeping generalisation wargs can be broken up into three groups:

Low Rank (1-5) - Just starting out and want to group up to learn the ropes, etc.
Mid Rank (6-11) - Interested in ranking and wants to maximise infamy gain, would prefer solo, but not feasible so looks to group up.
High Rank (12+) - Can't be bothered any more with listening to everyone else whine so enjoy being solo.

Asking for a Warg pack is often quicker, easier and more responsive than waiting for that raid slot (and a lot of Craids appreciate that Warg pack)

Back in the day wargs were deemed so useless in raids that the pack was really our only option. One might even argue that packs arose as a result of wargs being regularly excluded from raids. At any rate I have an article on joining warg packs that some new wargs might find useful: How To Get Into Warg Packs.

Don't take it personally. Wargs are just bottom of the 'must have in my raid' list unless the raid leader has a solid understanding/need of Warg abilities

This is sage advice. Most raid leaders will usually only accept two or three wargs in their raids. The wargs that are allowed to join tend to be the higher ranking, more well known players. That is just the way of things I am afraid. A wee tip though is to try and become friendly with those higher ranking wargs because they may be able to get you into raids (as well as packs of course).