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On the one hand, we have people discussing a principle based art, with a wide variety of means and methods to teach those principles...all from perfectly valid sources (yoshinkan, aikikai, shodokan, independant).

I know that this has been tried on other discussion boards but I hope that we may see a convergence on this board to the question: What are the priciples of Aikido (two lists 1) Physical and 2) philosophical).

Jun if this is too much of a topic drift feel free to move this post and start a new thread.

There was a very good thread on aikido journal on that very topic. If I get a chance, maybe I can link it to your new thread. On that idea, why not just create a new topic yourself? I'd love to read it, even though I don't have a whole lot to contribute...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)

I have split the thread into two separate threads. In the future, please feel encouraged to start a new thread yourself if you feel that what you feel you wish to discuss is "off topic" from the original thread rather than requesting that I do so, as my time and resources are limited. Your help in maintaining topic sanity within each thread will be appreciated by myself and others here on AikiWeb.

1. Aikido techniques can be instantly lethal so it is essential to observe the instructor's directions at all times and not engage in contests of strength.

2.Aikido is an art in which "the one" is used to strike "the many." Train yourself to be mindful of attacks coming from four and eight directions.

3. Always train in a vibrant and joyful manner.

4. The instructor can only impart a small portion of the teaching. Only through ceaseless training can you obtain the necessary experience to bring these mysteries alive

5. In daily training, begin with basic movements to strengthen the body without overexertion. Warm up properly, and there will be no fear of injury, even for older people. Enjoy yourself while training and strive to comprehend its true purpose.

6. The purpose of Aikido training is to forge the body and mind and to build one's character. The techniques are transmitted from person to person on an individual basis, and should not be disclosed indiscriminately to outsiders, nor used for evil purposes.

Read http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=636 and if you don't understand it, practice untill you do. (long time)
Aikido is in its outer form martial, inner is spiritual. Develop your spirit, fill yoursef with ki everyday, make that important, and technique secondary.
Don't let your mind or ego lead you astray.
This is the way to happiness.
All the Best

So, based on this article the GOAL of aikido is Harmony. Harmony is defined as acheiving Oneness with God.

So what are the principles based on the endstate of acheiving Oneness with God?

(for purposes of this discussion, God is defined in many ways, which I think irrelevant to the discussion. He can be a deity, a personification, or defined as the universe. Each person can define, or percieve God however he/she wants....lets not get into a dogmatic discussion on what IS God)

Illutstrates the point to me, that alot of people have their own take on the principles, but yet, don't really understand, or have not unified or codified them in any way that is understandable, or agreeable. Maybe this is why we have so much confusion and discussion as we cannot agree at the most basic level what we are all about.

No I still think good conduct is a behavior, or at least depending on your definition.

harmony would be the mid point between right and wrong correct? a balance.

I know we are getting somewhat esoteric, but good behavior would imply that there is an opposite (bad behavior), so if there was a principle..it would simply be behavior...and that does not make sense to me.

To me, it might be something like respect...but I think that would be a value, and NOT a princple.

Perhaps it would be helpful if we looked at what each of the above links has in common and identified a few which go toward explaining the fundamental reasons or workings in terms of the laws of "nature"....

... harmony would be the mid point between right and wrong correct? a balance. ...good behavior would imply that there is an opposite (bad behavior), so if there was a principle, it would simply be behavior...and that does not make sense to me.

Harmony by mid-point is like "half-pregnant" -- it is not really an intermediate-category type of thing. Bad behavior is, pretty much, not harmonious. Good behavior -- by and large -- is in harmony.

The qualifiers are only added because appearances can be deceiving ... Surgeons make this habit of gutting people like fish, but they really are usually behaving well when they do that. Budo can be like that also. But there are bad doctors just like there are wicked warriors.

Perhaps it would be helpful if we looked at what each of the above links has in common and identified a few which go toward explaining the fundamental reasons or workings in terms of the laws of "nature"....

There are only five questions in human existence. "Who?" "What?" "When?" "Where? "and "Why?"

"How?" -- (which is the usual objection at this point) is a compilation of the what/where/when trinity for a given purpose)

Figuring how to apply those questions to a given situation is the artistic part. It generally pays to frame one's questions carefully, before seeking answers to them too soon.

For our purposes I would phrase the questions:

"Who is aikido for?"

"What makes something aikido?"

"When do you know something is aikido?"

"Where does aikido happen?"

"Why practice aikido?"

Principle is defined as: "A fundamental assumption" or "rule used to choose among solutions to a problem," a "moral rule or aspect," "a fundamental essence, particularly one producing a given quality."

So, I guess the problem is whether there is a single principle that serves as a fundamental basis for answering each of those questions, or whether the best we can hope for in terms of fundamental aikido principle is a set of five major themes or issues.

Aikido typically involves both internal state and external action, so there may be both projective and reflective aspects to the answers of what ever number.

I agree Ignatius. I did look through the articles, and I am looking through some books. It becomes more and more cofusing as I go through the material. It may take a couple of days of thought on this one!

On the whole half pregnant thing Eric, I understand, but I think we are dealing with something other than binary logic here maybe? I don't know....I will have to think about this alot more!

On the whole half pregnant thing Eric, I understand, but I think we are dealing with something other than binary logic here maybe? I don't know....I will have to think about this alot more!

Logic proceeds from assumptions and usually is aimed at a definitional state. Aikido is a transformative logic, a dynamic, where a "bad" behavior (violence) becomes transformed into something else.

Ueshiba said that Aikido is a spirit of loving protection. Examine this, critically. If one assumes that two invidividuals in peak condition and with letter-perfect martial training were to seek to kill one another, then, logically, the expected end of this is ai-uchi, a mutual killing.

What then moves beyond this logic? Obviously, luck plays a part -- but leave that for a moment. What is different about aikido?

Simply -- love.

If my desire is not my enemy's death, but to protect him from his own inevitable death he has called out, other resources are found. Those resources are not within reach of my selfish calculations to kill the other guy. They are antithetical to the premise. Train to be the killer and they will be forever beyond your reach, by the nature of the logic you have created. Slip into the role of killer for a moment and they will slip through your fingers in an instant.

As for me, my living or dying is not the point, but, it should be noted that I cannot usually save him if I am already dead -- while I can usually kill him if I also die. Funny thing about such logic.

As to luck -- who is to say she does not play favorites? Generally speaking, luck favors the living over the dead.