Sunday, November 25, 2012 2:02:49 AMCrakrJak I don't pay much attention to this site, especially comments, nor did I read any replies besides like the first 3 to mine, but do I care that it was the same argument as used by the Nazis? I don't see how just because the argument was used by them makes it invalid. Also, they didn't make anyone "unborn", they killed and tortured them. So your point is invalid completely by there. Also, they did a lot of science experiments which helped us, but I don't see us rejecting anything they found out. Great reason to make more lives miserable, how about we breed humans to live like them? They're worse than humans and a way bigger problem anyway. I don't see any animals damaging the entire planet for greed and lazines like America. And I'm a closer to republican, American meat eating guy. Its just pretty stupid to be such a dick then treat humans like gods. Too long, I get it.

And i'm glad you disagree, becuase it is a slippery slope and it needs to be watched vigantly. I don't agree on all circumstances either. with euthanasia, a person is old enough to make his own choice, and over here we have quite a strict procedure were the person needs to make a request and two doctors have to agree that the person is suffering is without relief. Having seen my mother die of cancer, i am reliefed that the option is there for those who want it. With abortion you are making the quality of life descision for someone else and that is a dangerous situation, on the other hand there are clear cut cases where suffering would be the only outcome of birth (such as a harlequin baby) (mind you, there is one case where the kid lived up to 11) but in some cases i have the feeling that abortion is used as a birthcontrol measure, and with that i dissagree. And that is why in my opinion, you need two opossing opinions,

Monday, November 19, 2012 8:30:46 PMI think that if something is going to give it's life for you, it should be treated with respect and have some dignity and not suffer for it's entire life until you need to eat it, inject it with some disease, whatever. My eating and shopping habits reflect MY choices..I only have to be able to live with myself, morally. I'm not a vegan but I do wonder if it was life and death what a vegan would choose in the case this photo brings up. I would hope that they would choose to LIVE. Compensation to nature could be made in some way, I would think (volunteering, donation, something useful). I'm not religious, so I don't mean this is THAT way, but I think a vegan could/would be forgiven for choosing to TAKE the antidote, by family, friends, etc.

Monday, November 19, 2012 4:57:47 PMCrakrJak: I would not say I'm pro euthanasia but definitely pro physician assisted suicide. Reeves and Hawking are only two people. I don't think they would say their suffering is/was unbearable to them, but others might. What is right for one is not necessarily right for all. Why should the government say what I can and cannot do with my life?

Monday, November 19, 2012 3:42:54 PMMrOrange: i'm pro euthanasia, if you know you're going to suffer, you have the right to end it, same goes for abortion

That's where we part ways, that philosophy leads down a dark path, that of eugenics and I can't abide in that. I believe people like Christopher Reeves and Stephen Hawking would disagree with your analysis of 'quality of life'.

i think the easiest way to put it would be that: i believe in quality of life, not quantity. which is also why i'm pro euthanasia, if you know you're going to suffer, you have the right to end it, same goes for abortion, if that kid stands no hope in hell of having a normal /painfree live then spare it it's suffering, and why i believe in black/women/animal/religious/sexual liberation.

We finally found something we can shake hands on, i'm with you 100% on that. The courses i'm taking now, led me to some research on how mental instabillities/ diseases rise expantationly in major cities/ our current exposure to technology. (and exposure to chemicals such as food preservatives but i don't wanna sound like a freaking hippy) scarry stuff when you think about it.

Monday, November 19, 2012 12:30:00 PM@cobrakiller, I am a vegan, and i have no problem with aboriginals or the san people of africa killing wildlife to sustain themselves, this is survival and the animal in question led a natural life up to that point. What disgusts me is depraving _any_ lifeform of the freedom to adhere to it's instincts or basicly to do what it needs to do to live the life it's suposed to live. add abuse, fear, chemicals, etc etc. and it makes me sick to the core. thats just me.

Monday, November 19, 2012 12:14:43 PMMrOrange: I'm hoping that one day our technology will make it so that most people won't have to commute or live in concrete jungles. My philosophy is that mankind was never meant to live and work like ants and the stress involved in such an environ is killing us.

Monday, November 19, 2012 11:57:04 AMcrakr, I think that is what most people want; to have the farm animals treated well. I have dated a couple of vegetarian girls [not vegan] who werent preachy about not eating animals, only treating them well while they are alive.

I understand it is an odd concept for some people. To think about how well something is treated before it is killed and consumed, but it is rather important.

Each to his own. and i'm glad you live in an area where according to you animals are raised responsibly. Must be nice to live in wide open spaces. i live in the concrete jungle (not by choice) and it _sucks_

Monday, November 19, 2012 11:23:40 AMjendrian: Hey, I never said I was an advocate of overcrowding chickens in tiny metal pens or abusing them.

I live out in rural Illinois, we have plenty of space and all the animals I've seen on farms, out here, are raised responsibly. There is simply no reason to overcrowd them or abuse them. The 4H and FFA clubs teach the principles of treating animals with respect and I've yet to hear of any large cases of farmers committing animal abuse around here.

Monday, November 19, 2012 11:08:30 AM@Angilion (which is made possible with that modern technology) That same technology is the reason why vegans need b12 suplements, the soil is to sterile and so the bacteria (which is how it enters the foodchain) which produces b12 isn't present I'd say that's a small price to pay .)

As for your argument about information, i agree but i'd urge any person regardless of their diet to do some research and not just assume that becuase you eat meat you are meeting all your nutritional requirments.

Monday, November 19, 2012 10:22:45 AMThe thing is that we're so good at adapting, that we can supplement deficiencies from vegetarian diets with other protein sources and vitamin supplements etc.

We're even better at adapting than that, now that we have modern information distribution, farming and transportation technology.

A human with access to enough information and large enough quantities of a large enough variety of plants (which is made possible with that modern technology) can create a diet that is adequate in all nutrition except for vitamin B12. That's the only supplement that's absolutely required with a vegetarian diet, regardless of knowledge, variety, quantity, careful mixing of plants or anything else. There is no human-usable plant source of B12. None at all. Supplement or suffer and die.

Humans are highly adaptable omnivores with that adaptability boosted by modern technology...technology made possible by eating meat.

Monday, November 19, 2012 9:26:25 AMI just thought of a way of using your own rhetoric against you: jendrian: Chickens do not know the difference between sunlight and electric light, that's been proved for a hundred years. Quit being obtuse.

CrakrJak: Chickens (and other animals used for food) have a nervous system that allows them to feel when they are being kicked, an olfactory system that allows them to smell the carcasses of other rotting, diseased chickens around, and because they are animals with similar organs as we humans have, they get sick from the conditions they are kept in.

Everyone knows that.

Nobody is saying "stop eating meat" (except vegans), we are not thinking that they are just as good as people. We are thinking that we, as people, find it abhorrent that you defend those practices.

Thank you for the superfluous note from the department of the bleeding obvious. And thank you for using the internet, it would be a shame if they had to cut down trees to print that precious insight. See you do care! Thanks again buddy :)