This is a discussion on $10 NLHE 6-max: KK vs TAG pre 4 bet pot DS within the online poker forums, in the Cash Game Hand Analysis section; My 3 bet was on the small side which means I may have made this situation easier for him to put me on the spot.

My 3 bet was on the small side which means I may have made this situation easier for him to put me on the spot. I am thinking 2.60-2.90 better (maybe >3). Thoughts?.

Very few hands. He has not shown a single hand down. I am tight, and am assuming he noticed. My range here is quite defined. His small 4 bet means 1 of 2 things to me. 1: he will be able to get away cheap if I continue, or 2: he wants me to continue. Reason 1 is moot as he is done if I raise, or I could also raise small to entice a bluff, but I am thinking this is almost never the case. . Reason 2 can only be AA or KK (unlikely) or maybe AK, but hmmm. I cant see him continuing with anything else vs me.

If you were in position you could flat and try to get one cbet bluff,but we are not.Ship,and pray he will call with AK,QQ.
There is not a lot of 4bet/5bet bluffing going on at 10nl though

#3

2nd June 2012, 8:10 PM

forsakenone [1,386]

Poker at: pokerstars

Game: holdem

ship.

I know it is sick, but you can't fold.

#4

2nd June 2012, 8:19 PM

WVHillbilly [22,659]

Online Poker at: Full Tilt

What was your plan when you 4bet?

#5

2nd June 2012, 11:02 PM

JDAWG5 [499]

Poker at: Hero

Game: Holdem

re: Poker & $10 NLHE 6-max: KK vs TAG pre 4 bet pot DS

Ship it. I am never folding here.

#6

3rd June 2012, 12:50 AM

nabmom [4,585]

Game: NLHE

Quote:

Originally Posted by WVHillbilly

What was your plan when you 4bet?

I hate this question! Why? Because it is a great question and I usually don't have a very good answer!

I guess you need to consider the player. How often does he 3bet, how tight is he playing, have you seen him make a move before? You don't have nearly enough hands to get a sense of his 4betting/5betting unless you've seen him do this already.

I'd raise to about $3.30 and since in a cash game I'm going to be hoping to play this for stacks all day long, I'd shove to his 5bet.

Is it ever more +EV to just call and shove the flop? I can't see how, but I'm not very expert in my bet sizing and how to induce the most money from a monster hand.

(And then, if he has Aces, or lands an A with his AK--less likely I guess since you're holding two of them-- you have to be able to shrug it off knowing that sometimes that's how poker goes.)

#7

3rd June 2012, 7:18 AM

fletchdad [7,481]

Poker at: Weddings

Game: holdem

Quote:

Originally Posted by WVHillbilly

What was your plan when you 4bet?

TBO, I was not sure. I dont get into many DS stacking situations pre at 10nl. I am not sure anyone with stats like villain is gonna be stacking AK-QQ. KK is so unlikely that I feel the strong urge to fold. One of my problems in general is dealing with situations exactly like this (It will be on the PZ forum as well).

In retrospect I feel my initial 3 bet was to small. His 5 bet was small as well so I still dont really know if it means "call/raise" ( I tend to think so, which vs this guy can really only be AA) or if he is looking for more info about my hand. With such a small sample on him, its hard to say, but with the info I have, my estimation of his range is 80% AA and 20% AK, KK, QQ, and a small amount of other stuff.

This is all after the fact thoughts. In the hand I was a bit unprepared TBO. My plan was for him to call or fold, and if he 5 bet; I expected it to be bigger and expected a 5 bet to have AA enough so that I could fold. His size threw me.

I hear a lot of "get it in here" but I am still not convinced that is not printing money for him. I hope for some more detailed thought process from ppl taking the info available into consideration.i.e. his stats, and I also think if he is tracking (so far stats say a reg???) he seeing me also as having a very defined range.

#8

3rd June 2012, 11:29 AM

duggs [9,065]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fletchdad

TBO, I was not sure. I dont get into many DS stacking situations pre at 10nl. I am not sure anyone with stats like villain is gonna be stacking AK-QQ. KK is so unlikely that I feel the strong urge to fold. One of my problems in general is dealing with situations exactly like this (It will be on the PZ forum as well).

In retrospect I feel my initial 3 bet was to small. His 5 bet was small as well so I still dont really know if it means "call/raise" ( I tend to think so, which vs this guy can really only be AA) or if he is looking for more info about my hand. With such a small sample on him, its hard to say, but with the info I have, my estimation of his range is 80% AA and 20% AK, KK, QQ, and a small amount of other stuff.

This is all after the fact thoughts. In the hand I was a bit unprepared TBO. My plan was for him to call or fold, and if he 5 bet; I expected it to be bigger and expected a 5 bet to have AA enough so that I could fold. His size threw me.

I hear a lot of "get it in here" but I am still not convinced that is not printing money for him. I hope for some more detailed thought process from ppl taking the info available into consideration.i.e. his stats, and I also think if he is tracking (so far stats say a reg???) he seeing me also as having a very defined range.

if you are going to 4bet/fold its better to flat and keep his worse hands/bluff in his range

#9

3rd June 2012, 11:43 AM

WVHillbilly [22,659]

Poker at: Full Tilt

1st some terminology to clear-up, you didn't 3bet (he did). Your 4-bet (to $2.30) is fine as far as sizing as long as you have some idea of what you're going to do if he 5-bets.

As far as info about your hand, he has all the info he needs. You 4-bet so your range is QQ+/AK (and he can discount QQ/AK somewhat). His 5bet is NEVER a bluff and your equity against his range pretty well sucks. This guy is not some loose cannon who can show up any pair here. I fold.

#10

3rd June 2012, 11:53 AM

Cafeman [3,200]

Online Poker at: Pokerstars

Game: Holdem

re: Poker & $10 NLHE 6-max: KK vs TAG pre 4 bet pot DS

I guess it's a fold this deep with your image then? 4betting for value, but when he 5bets you might think his range is simply AA? Wow, I don't know, but I think folding KK is fine between 2 tight players this deep. He is unlikely to be bluffing you that's for sure.

EDIT: yeah what WV said... just fold and move on.

#11

3rd June 2012, 12:12 PM

duggs [9,065]

why are we 4bet/folding? if we intend to 4bet/fold shouldnt we flat and keep his range wider? or are we assuming he never 3bet/folds and just flats with a ton of stuff we beat and only 5bets the nuts?

#12

3rd June 2012, 12:15 PM

fletchdad [7,481]

Online Poker at: Weddings

Game: holdem

Quote:

Originally Posted by WVHillbilly

1st some terminology to clear-up, you didn't 3bet (he did). Your 4-bet (to $2.30) is fine as far as sizing as long as you have some idea of what you're going to do if he 5-bets.

As far as info about your hand, he has all the info he needs. You 4-bet so your range is QQ+/AK (and he can discount QQ/AK somewhat). His 5bet is NEVER a bluff and your equity against his range pretty well sucks. This guy is not some loose cannon who can show up any pair here. I fold.

Yea my bad on typing. Believe it or not, I actually know the difference between a 3 bet and a 4 bet... But who can tell.lol.

Yea I folded.

#13

3rd June 2012, 12:17 PM

Cafeman [3,200]

Poker at: Pokerstars

Game: Holdem

Quote:

Originally Posted by duggs

why are we 4bet/folding? if we intend to 4bet/fold shouldnt we flat and keep his range wider? or are we assuming he never 3bet/folds and just flats with a ton of stuff we beat and only 5bets the nuts?

Bet/folding and raise/folding is a pretty good strategy at the micros - unless you are against a maniac, where closing your eyes and hitting call is also an option

#14

3rd June 2012, 12:23 PM

WVHillbilly [22,659]

Online Poker at: Full Tilt

Quote:

Originally Posted by duggs

why are we 4bet/folding? if we intend to 4bet/fold shouldnt we flat and keep his range wider? or are we assuming he never 3bet/folds and just flats with a ton of stuff we beat and only 5bets the nuts?

This deep I think 4betting with the intention of folding to another bet is fine since he'll call with a pretty wide part of his 3bet range and really only 5bets the portion of that range that has us crushed.

#15

3rd June 2012, 12:35 PM

duggs [9,065]

re: Poker & $10 NLHE 6-max: KK vs TAG pre 4 bet pot DS

how do we know he isnt 5betting most/all of his 3betting range? i thought the general bad micro stakes player 3bets too narrow and 5bets too light?

Also why do we think he flats alot to our 4bet? id be more inclined to flat his 3bet and get him to put money in with a wider range postflop than 4bet/fold KK after a relatively small sample to someone we cant discount getting QQ/JJ/AK in against.

maybe im missing something obv but why arent we either 4bet/shoving or flatting his 3bet?

#16

3rd June 2012, 5:15 PM

BlueNowhere [4,234]

Online Poker at: Pokerstars

Game: NLHE

Quote:

Originally Posted by duggs

Also why do we think he flats alot to our 4bet? id be more inclined to flat his 3bet and get him to put money in with a wider range postflop than 4bet/fold KK after a relatively small sample to someone we cant discount getting QQ/JJ/AK in against.

maybe im missing something obv but why arent we either 4bet/shoving or flatting his 3bet?

I agree with this. Surely if we intend to fold to a 5-bet just flatting his 3-bet would've been better.?