The Hobgoblin would actually be pretty good if you pulled the APGauss, ammo and Magnetic Clamps for an ERML and Proto MASC and left everything else the same, making it a sort of super-Basilisk. I agree that the canon variants are pretty bad. It just looks so good though, aesthetically

I'd be down to throw some money down towards a fan financed Basilisk Q. Otherwise, I'll probably just 3D print my own

The Hobgoblin would actually be pretty good if you pulled the APGauss, ammo and Magnetic Clamps for an ERML and Proto MASC and left everything else the same, making it a sort of super-Basilisk. I agree that the canon variants are pretty bad. It just looks so good though, aesthetically

I'd be down to throw some money down towards a fan financed Basilisk Q. Otherwise, I'll probably just 3D print my own

The second Hobby would be fine if it had more than 5 shots per gun. Given its armor, there's an extremely good chance that thing will massively outlive its ammo, a problem the primary Boggart rather has; would have been nice to have a shorter-range, lighter proto-scale plasma cannon for that. Or just more than 10 rounds per ton.

Also, why does the Procyon have to be so damn expensive to buy? It's double the price of similar protomechs. Makes it a real pain putting together my Society proto force. /vent

If customs are allowed, I'd prefer modding the Hobgoblin to lose the MagClamps and give it a bigger gun than the AP Gauss, or replace this proto entirely with something else. Any suggestions? Maybe two uns of vees, perhaps?

If customs are allowed, I'd prefer modding the Hobgoblin to lose the MagClamps and give it a bigger gun than the AP Gauss, or replace this proto entirely with something else. Any suggestions? Maybe two uns of vees, perhaps?

Any room to trade for some Sprite 2s if you're looking for a bigger gun? Can't get much bigger than an ERLL on a Proto.

If customs are allowed, I'd prefer modding the Hobgoblin to lose the MagClamps and give it a bigger gun than the AP Gauss, or replace this proto entirely with something else. Any suggestions? Maybe two uns of vees, perhaps?

Why keep to the Hobgoblin in the first place? If you want Fusilades, why not use the Sprite 3? You'd get a much better unit that way.

Otherwise go with something like the Roc Z, or even some Procyon 5/Z and a Mist Lynx Z filled with IIW and IMP warheads. I've found the IIW are a great way to help deal with someone that brings inferno SRMs to try and take out your protomechs.

I thought of using the Hobgoblins mostly because of that dank flavor (they look so nice!) and they make decent tanks because of their obscenely high armor.

I was hoping to use only 3rd/4th gen protos, but I also have a Trey of Centaurs, Rocs, Gorgons and Minotaurs laying around to sub in. I suppose I might as well change the Hobgoblins out for Minotaur Zs

If customs are allowed, I'd prefer modding the Hobgoblin to lose the MagClamps and give it a bigger gun than the AP Gauss, or replace this proto entirely with something else. Any suggestions? Maybe two uns of vees, perhaps?

You're sinking over 1600 BV2 into the six Hobgoblins. Trading in the Hobgoblins and maybe one more proto, you could buy two Mist Lynx Zs (about 1900 BV2) and their four iATM-3s for your IMP warhead delivery. The Mist Lynx Zs have better speed and mobility to get the IMPs into their SRM-ish range, deeper ammo bins to keep the IMPs coming, and maximal Streak-like missile hits for the IMPs when the iATMs connect. Plus Nova CEWS so only one Mist Lynx Z needs to be exposed to short-range enemy fire at a time.

The Mist Lynx Zs and Basilisk Quads should obviously try to cripple an enemy unit or two each turn with IMP and inferno attacks, while the Sprites smoke the remaining enemy units. Then the Boggart 2s can go for the kill on the crippled units, assisted by whatever Mist Lynx Zs or Basilisk Quads or Sprites aren't needed to cripple or smoke other enemy units the next turn.

It really sucks that there's no fast, BV2-cheap hovertank or other vehicle with a couple iATM-3s for IMP delivery. If you can modify units, maybe see if you can save some BV2 by modifying a couple Asshurs or Shamashes with iATM-3s instead of using the Mist Lynx Zs (or Hobgoblins).

If mods are available, you could also create a Cephalus configuration with a couple iATM-3s. Should be about the same BV2 as the Mist Lynx Z but more survivable. Even more than vehicles, it makes little sense that a Cephalus with iATMs does not exist.

« Last Edit: 20 July 2017, 23:03:45 by Natasha Kerensky »

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"Ah, yes. The belle dame sans merci. The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off. The kitten with a whip. That mystique?""Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about.""Variety is the spice of battle.""I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles? It could be a million as far as I know. I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't. And the universe is not much different after all that. I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same.""I'm in mourning for my life.""Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Might as well use a Storm Crow Z or Summoner Z or maybe even Batu Zs at that point, but point taken. I was trying to not use Mechs, and only use protos. I want to remain pure!

I've tried that before. Then my opponent started filling up his units with inferno SRMs.

Remember, for every three infernos that hit, you roll a location on the protomech and that location is gone. Had 40 points of armor? lolnope, all gone, plus the internals. Was that a torso? Better take out a personal ad for a new pilot.

Protos are super vulnerable to inferno attacks. You're going to want some kind of defense against that counter, and in my experience IIW and diversity were the best answers.

Might as well use a Storm Crow Z or Summoner Z or maybe even Batu Zs at that point, but point taken. I was trying to not use Mechs, and only use protos. I want to remain pure!

Nothing wrong with that. I was just pointing out that to deliver IMPs, you're sinking a lot of BV into a very substandard design (the Hobgoblin).

If you want to stay proto-pure and canon, ditch the Hobgoblins and go with Xeno's suggestion of the Sprite 3 for IMP delivery.

But like the Hobgoblin, Sprites are slow, which doesn't match up well with the short, 9-hex range of IMP warheads (except in ambush or urban situations). In a mobile or open engagement, you need something faster to bring the IMPs to your enemy, and there are simply no other canon protomechs, nevertheless speedier ones, than the Hobgoblin or Sprite 3 with Fusillades

The cheapest thing in the canon for mobile IMP delivery is the Mist Lynx Z, which is why I recommended using a couple of them in place of the Hobgoblins.

I would actually _not_ recommend a Stormcrow Z, Summoner Z, Septicemia A, or Batu Z for IMP delivery. The effects of IMPs max out after six missiles. Because iATMs have built-in Streak capabilities, anything larger than an iATM-6 for IMP delivery is a waste. The Stormcrow Z, Summoner Z, Septecemia A, and Batu Z all carry iATM-9s or -12s.

Conversely, the Viper Z is suboptimal with only one iATM-3 -- it can't max out IMP effects.

So not only is the Mist Lynx Z the cheapest canon platform for IMP delivery after protomechs, it's dual iATM-3s are also optimal for IMP delivery. The Mist Lynx Z can max out IMP effects without wasting iATM tubes.

The alternative to the Mist Lynx Z is to go non-canon and mount Fusillades on a faster protomech or iATM-3s or -6s on a faster combat vehicle. Given the fragility of the Mist Lynx Z for its BV, I'd certainly go those routes if the scenario allowed. ("Hey GM, the Society is made up of scientists. Let me experiment!")

But other than your IMP delivery platform, it's a well-rounded and effective Society proto force. Not much else to argue with other than the inherent vulnerabilities of protos.

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"Ah, yes. The belle dame sans merci. The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off. The kitten with a whip. That mystique?""Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about.""Variety is the spice of battle.""I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles? It could be a million as far as I know. I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't. And the universe is not much different after all that. I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same.""I'm in mourning for my life.""Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Khan,Clan Iron DolphinAzeroth PocketverseThat is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units. ~ Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013TT, we know you are the master of nasty O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force. I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid ~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

That's a good idea. Just change "ATM-3" to "iATM-3" and you're good to go. Deploy at least two for maximal IMP effects. 5/8 wheeled movement, 5 tons of armor, and less than 500 BV2 each.

The Zorya ATM variant is another good option. Carries an ATM-6 (switch to iATM-6) and an LB 5-X. 5/8 tracked movement and increased armor over the original. Less than 700 BV2 each.

They could each be faster, but will definitely get the IMPs into play quicker than the Hobgoblin or Sprite 3.

Quote

And the best part is same weight and they come two to a Point!

The Society actually deploys seven vehicles to an Un, but obviously doesn't apply to a BV-limited game.

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"Ah, yes. The belle dame sans merci. The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off. The kitten with a whip. That mystique?""Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about.""Variety is the spice of battle.""I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles? It could be a million as far as I know. I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't. And the universe is not much different after all that. I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same.""I'm in mourning for my life.""Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Equipment Loc----------------------------------Nova CEWS ROMast Mount ROBasically, the big laser is replaced with a smaller improved heavy medium laser (same damage, less range), the two streaks are replaced with a pair of iATM-3s, and the mast mount from the Close Support version now finds a use for the Nova CEWS (rather stupid a TAG can't be put up there, seeing as how that's exactly how it's used IRL).

The TAG could be swapped out for a 30-rated engine (boosting speed to 10/15) and a light TAG, or just exchanged for another ton of ammo if that is needed. All for less than 1000 BV.

I am of the opinion that the best way to mitigate the bad (fluffed) gunnery of Society vee forces is to use vees where lack of good gunnery matters the least (use mass homing artillery barrage). Also, I can see that SLDF artillery is probably a fair amount of what was left in the Brian Caches two centuries later after the Clans poached all the Mechs and ASFs.

I am of the opinion that the best way to mitigate the bad (fluffed) gunnery of Society vee forces is to use vees where lack of good gunnery matters the least (use mass homing artillery barrage). Also, I can see that SLDF artillery is probably a fair amount of what was left in the Brian Caches two centuries later after the Clans poached all the Mechs and ASFs.

Completely logical.

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Herb: "Well, now I guess we'll HAVE to print it. Sounds almost like the apocalypse I've been working for...."

I am of the opinion that the best way to mitigate the bad (fluffed) gunnery of Society vee forces is to use vees where lack of good gunnery matters the least (use mass homing artillery barrage). Also, I can see that SLDF artillery is probably a fair amount of what was left in the Brian Caches two centuries later after the Clans poached all the Mechs and ASFs.

True, but you're putting all your eggs into one TAG basket. That one Cephalus has to provide all target marking duty (remember, Sprite 2 was errata'd to remove the light TAG). Maybe replace that Un of Sprite 2s with an Un of Satyr 4's and another Un of something else. Hell, with the saved BV, you could get yourself a Turkina Z.

True, but you're putting all your eggs into one TAG basket. That one Cephalus has to provide all target marking duty (remember, Sprite 2 was errata'd to remove the light TAG). Maybe replace that Un of Sprite 2s with an Un of Satyr 4's and another Un of something else. Hell, with the saved BV, you could get yourself a Turkina Z.

With that Qty of Artillery it might be best to not use any TAG and 'let statistics do the talking'. It will save a lot of TAG+Arrow penalty BV.

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Herb: "Well, now I guess we'll HAVE to print it. Sounds almost like the apocalypse I've been working for...."

With that Qty of Artillery it might be best to not use any TAG and 'let statistics do the talking'. It will save a lot of TAG+Arrow penalty BV.

Precisely my thinking. With five tons of ammo, each Vali need not fire Homing rounds every turn, the Cephalus doesn't need to be TAGing all the time. The Valis could just as well be firing FASCAM or smoke rounds or even plain vanilla unguided rounds to deal with fast movers and large clusters of units.

But, I suppose that I could swap a Vali for a Royal Zephyr or something and maybe use a bin of Narc'd LRM ammo on the Sprites

I am of the opinion that the best way to mitigate the bad (fluffed) gunnery of Society vee forces is to use vees where lack of good gunnery matters the least...

I agree. Alternatives could include the Huey, Pollux, Padilla, Chaparral, Ballista, Marksman, and Thor. Whether you're Society or not, it's almost always better to use vehicles in the off-board artillery role due to their fragility than waste more durable mechs.

Short of these artillery platforms, the next best vehicles for unskilled Society crews are those that carry weapons with a targeting modifier, like pulse lasers, LB-X cluster, or TCs. But even between the SLDF and Golden Age, such vehicles are few and far between. Only the LB-X Carrier and Oro come to mind. (We are in great need of a handful of vehicle Zs with Nova CEWs and/or iATM conversions.)

My impression is that, while vehicle crews may have been the worst, all types of Society warriors suffered from a lack of training and/or trueborn fitness relative to Clanners. So I think that also argues for weapons on Society omnimechs and protomechs that impose targeting and other modifiers whenever possible, including modifiers that benefit the Society warrior (pulse lasers, LB-X cluster, TCs, etc.) or that impose penalties on the Clanners (EDP, infernos, IMP, IIW, plasma cannons, smoke, etc.).

Since the latter tend to be shorter-ranged weapons and munitions (under 15 or 9 hexes), I prefer faster omnimechs and protomechs for delivering EDP, infernos, IMP, IIW, and plasma cannons. And since the former can be longer-ranged, I prefer slower omnimechs and protomechs for delivering large pulse, LB 10-X or smaller, LRM smoke and FASCAM, etc.

For omnimechs, this actually turns some Society tactical fluff on its head. Instead using the Cephalus Prime, I employ faster omnimechs with iATMs in the Nova CEWs spotter role, like the Mist Lynx Z, Viper Z, Stormcrow Z, and Timber Wolf Z. This ensures that my IMP and IIW (and even HE and standard ATM) warheads get into range. I also prefer to run two of these spotters, both to make the Nova CEWs network more resilient and to only expose one at a time while the other gets Nova CEWs bonuses for its iATM attacks.

(And unlike Clanners in-game, no player with half-a-brain is going to be fooled into ignoring a Cephalus, anyway.)

Since they have trouble getting into range for IMP, IIW, and HE warheads, instead of using the Osteon Prime, Savage Coyote Z, or Turkina Z for iATM delivery, I use designs like the Osteon D and its four pulse large lasers tied into the Nova CEWs network for reliable ranged support.

It's more straightforward for Society protomech tactics. Generally their shorter-ranged weapons (EDP, Fusillade, plasma cannon) are aligned with their more mobile protomechs, like the Basilisk Quad and Boggart, while their longer-ranged weapons (LRM smoke or FASCAM) are aligned with their slower protomechs, like the Sprite.

(However, I skipped the Sprite since the LB-X carrier comes with three LRM-5s for smoke/FASCAM delivery.)

Finally, since the Society fields so many vehicles per Un, I'd be tempted to put a Mobile HQ or something else with 4-7 tons of communications equipment off-board for the initiative bonuses. Those bonuses will really boost the value of the more mobile protomechs and the omnimech Nova CEWs spotters.

Aided by initiative bonuses from the Mobile HQ off-board, the Basilisks and Boggarts cripple Clanners with initial attacks on their heat scales (plasma cannons) and targeting/movement (electric discharge armor), while the lead Stormcrow Z and the LB-X Carriers keep the Clanners down with similar heat sink/myomer attacks from IMP, IIW, and LRM smoke/FASCAM munitions. Then the Nova CEWs on the lead Stormcrow Z guides accurate pulse laser fire from the Osteon Ds and accurate HE or standard ATM fire from the second Stormcrow Z to finish off the Clanners. If that's not enough to kill, then massed pulse laser and LB-X fire from the LB-X carriers and Oros can deliver the coup de grace.

I'd also note that with all the incendiary attacks and LB-X cluster rounds being thrown, this Sept should also have no problem with Clanner battle armor, vehicle, or solahma infantry (and maybe even aerospace fighters).

This Sept lacks a massed artillery attack from off-board or big guns like the HAG-40s on the Septicemia Prime. But it still delivers a lot of raw firepower, while maximizing nearly all the modifier levers (heat, targeting, movement, initiative) that the Society can pull to make the battle as uneven as possible.

It would be interesting to "experiment" and see what Septs do best against a standard Clan binary or trinary on a regular board.

And of course, this is all optimized without BV or other constraints.

FWIW...

« Last Edit: 07 August 2017, 13:02:52 by Natasha Kerensky »

Logged

"Ah, yes. The belle dame sans merci. The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off. The kitten with a whip. That mystique?""Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about.""Variety is the spice of battle.""I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles? It could be a million as far as I know. I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't. And the universe is not much different after all that. I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same.""I'm in mourning for my life.""Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Nice Sept you have there! Using a Mobile HQ is something that I have though of doing as well, especially as my own interpretation of Society tactics focuses on initiative-dependent moves like backstabbing and crippling opponent mobility via Protomech encirclement. Using a Mobile HQ makes sense because 1) it gives the Society the advantage and 2) Clans don't use them, so there are at least a few left in the Brian Caches

The idea behind my Sept was something like: disperse the opponent with non-guided Arrow IV saturation and/or funnel individual enemy units with FASCAM rounds, and then use superior mobility to concentrate firepower on the nearest outlying enemy unit, while hindering enemy LOS against attacking Society units with smoke rounds. Although I realize that this force + tactics would only succeed against a 4/6 or slower Clan star or binary in broken terrain.

I think that one of the failings of the force that I posted is that it somewhat lacks critseeking ability, unlike your vehicle trey. I personally would go with Demolisher C over the Oro if fighting in a city or in broken terrain, but I understand the utility of the LPL.

I chose Valis as arty of choice because they have on the deepest ammo bins. I need an arty unit with at least 4 tons of ammo (1 homing, 1 non-guided, 1 FASCAM, 1 smoke). While I have considered Copperhead rounds for the numerous tube arty units out there (like the Marksman, Pollux, Ballista, etc) these units just don't have a deep enough ammo bin to make it worth it unless I am fielding these units in more than an Un or two

Something that I've been considering lately is experimenting with 'dirtbag Society forces' for competitive BV play designed a bit like '3025ish dirtbag militia' forces, but with a few Protomechs. I'm less the "in-bed-with-Clan-Coyote" Society player and more "we're still out there hiding out in an asteroid, you just think you killed all of us muahahaha" kind of guy but this means less access to resources. How would you approach the problem "how does an small independent Society cell win?" I guess the real problem is translating this to the table top and making it fun and not too munchy

Something that I've been considering lately is experimenting with 'dirtbag Society forces' for competitive BV play designed a bit like '3025ish dirtbag militia' forces, but with a few Protomechs. I'm less the "in-bed-with-Clan-Coyote" Society player and more "we're still out there hiding out in an asteroid, you just think you killed all of us muahahaha" kind of guy but this means less access to resources. How would you approach the problem "how does an small independent Society cell win?"

Obtain Strength From Numbers. Trade quality for quantity, specifically mechs for vehicles. Use few or no mech Uns with only one unit each in favor of vehicle Uns with seven units each, even if they're small, junky, or outdated Golden Century or SLDF vehicles. Seven Shamashes attacking a single omnimech is verboten in Clan Trials. It should be de rigueur for Society remnants.

Maintain Dirty Tricks. Maintain the Society remnant's ability to reduce Clanner targeting accuracy and firepower and restrict Clanner movement through EMP, incendiary, smoke, and FASCAM attacks. Pick protomechs and vehicles with plasma cannons and multiple small LRM (smoke/FASCAM) and SRM (inferno) racks. Artillery munitions can also supply incendiary and smoke attacks. If the campaign allows, pick vehicles with ATMs and upgrade them to iATMs with IMP and IIW warheads.

Make Firepower Count. With limited resources and unskilled warriors, ensure that the Society remnant can hit reliably by picking protomechs and vehicles with pulse lasers, LB-X cluster, targeting computers, and Artemis V FCS. Of course, area attack weapons and artillery also help offset poor Society gunnery skills. If the campaign allows, upgrade vehicles with Nova CEWs networks. This is especially effective on certain SLDF Royal variants where a Guardian ECM suite, Streak SRM-2, or anti-missile system can easily trade out for a Nova CEWS.

Concentrate Tactics. Don't do a little of everything in an Un or Trey. One plasma cannon or three iATM tubes or two pulse lasers or five LB-X cluster hits in an Un or Trey won't do much to unbalance the battlefield and cripple or destroy a Clanner unit. Focus each Un or Trey on one or two tactics. Several plasma cannons will max out the heat on mechs. At least six iATM tubes are needed to max out the IMP modifiers. A handful of pulse lasers or tens of LB-X cluster will strip armor, crit out, or knock a Clanner unconscious more quickly.

Reinforce. Society infantry were few in number and irregular. But with limited or no mech and vehicle production, a Society remnant would probably leverage its iron wombs and genetic engineering talents more heavily to supplement its forces. Canon Clan infantry units from TRO 3085 are shockingly powerful, and a Society remnant should field them and infantry carriers (Bandit, Badger, Svantovit, etc.) in quantity. If you can house rule some BT-level effects from mutagenic virotherapies and battle drugs for your Society remnant infantry, all the better. Similarly, if defending a Society remnant base, fortifications with Nova CEWS and iATM turrets, prepositioned minefields, and preplotted artillery targets should be the order of the day.

Surprise With Wildcards. For example, the possibilities of the Clan Cargo variant of the Saladin and its 17-ton payload bay, high speed, and thick armor intrigue me. Could a Boggart, a couple Basilisks, or other quad protos mechanize with and deploy directly from the Saladin's payload bay using the infantry carrier rules (or the cargo unloading rules and the help of an infantry unit or two)? Or maybe the Saladin just disgorges hordes of mutagenic, feralized, Society remnant infantry? Could a Saladin carry a weaponized Mobile HPG and a small fusion engine to power it? Similarly, what about some biochem warheads on other units?

Putting all this together, here's my take on some dirtbag-ish Society remnant Treys:

You could take all or pieces from three of these treys to make a sept. But WoR Supp (p. 2) mentions that the Society would also field four independently operating Treys (alongside the Coyotes). So I would pick four complementary Treys from the list above and use those as the basis for a Society remnant force.

Hope this helps… my 2 Kerenskies… FWIW…

« Last Edit: 08 August 2017, 22:00:49 by Natasha Kerensky »

Logged

"Ah, yes. The belle dame sans merci. The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off. The kitten with a whip. That mystique?""Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about.""Variety is the spice of battle.""I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles? It could be a million as far as I know. I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't. And the universe is not much different after all that. I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same.""I'm in mourning for my life.""Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Something that I've been considering lately is experimenting with 'dirtbag Society forces' for competitive BV play designed a bit like '3025ish dirtbag militia' forces, but with a few Protomechs. I'm less the "in-bed-with-Clan-Coyote" Society player and more "we're still out there hiding out in an asteroid, you just think you killed all of us muahahaha" kind of guy but this means less access to resources. How would you approach the problem "how does an small independent Society cell win?" I guess the real problem is translating this to the table top and making it fun and not too munchy

I like the idea of a few warships (hulled out into transports, like the original Leviathan) being used to move remaining members of the Society, and setting up shop somewhere rimward of the former FWL

Khan,Clan Iron DolphinAzeroth PocketverseThat is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units. ~ Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013TT, we know you are the master of nasty O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force. I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid ~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016