Obviously I would want them to, but it would be impossible to support. The Monsters live attendance-wise on voucher giveaways and other free tickets. There's not enough money to go around and not enough of a following.

There's no chance of the NHL expanding and there are no teams in real danger of moving except the Thrashers, and with what the NHL did to keep Phoenix in place, there would be no chance of Bettman allowing Atlanta to move.

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe

If Bron leaves, get the rest of that disaster out of here and give us a REAL sport.

Of course the Monsters don't draw.#1 they were competing against LBJ and the 62 win Cadavers.#2 it's a minor league team in a major league city.#3 it's owned by the Cavs as a cheap way to fill dates at the arena. Why spend money on marketing when your big ticket is the Cavs?#4 they aren't even mediocre. They're not exciting. And minor league hockey is really not very good hockey.

A GD indoor soccer team and arena football team can sell the place out when they win. I'd much rather pay to see good hockey than those gimicks, or the jam session the NBA has turned into. On the court and in the arena.

You do realize a expansion hockey team isn't going to win for awhile, right? A while their not winning only the hardcore are gonna give a shit, especially once that new shine wears off. If the teams sucks and their colors ain't Brown and Orange those fairweather fans aren't gonna pay to see 'em.

Spin wrote:If Bron leaves, get the rest of that disaster out of here and give us a REAL sport.

Of course the Monsters don't draw.#1 they're competing against LBJ and the 62 win Cadavers.#2 it's a minor league team in a major league city.#3 it's owned by the Cavs as a cheap way to fill dates at the arena. Why spend money on marketing when your big ticket is the Cavs?#4 they aren't even mediocre. They're not exciting. And minor league hockey is really not very good hockey.

A GD indoor soccer team and arena football team can sell the place out when they win. I'd much rather pay to see good hockey than those gimicks, or the jam session the NBA has turned into. On the court and in the arena.

1. All Cavs season ticket holders get a number of vouchers to a Monsters game. Generally, they're given away to friends/family, but it puts asses in the seats. The Monsters did average 6484 per game, most of it on free tickets, but there's enough interest to get people to use the free tickets, pay $10 to park, and likely buy concessions. There were weekend crowds in excess of 12,000.

2. The biggest argument to not having a team.

3. Because it's easy to market hockey here, it's just not easy to sell the product here. As a local referee, I know that there are about 350 teams from mite to bantam. That's 5000 kids, give or take, plus their parents that you can easily market to. Not to mention the high school hockey programs.

The reason it's easy to market is because you don't have to search high and low to market it. You have the season ticket holder base and then all of the kids in this area who play hockey. Then you have the Cavs fans who are sports fans overall and hold vouchers.

4.This is a really broad statement. How many games outside of the Monsters/Barons have you seen? If you're going all the way down to Junior leagues, you're extremely mistaken. If your basis for this is doormat leagues like the USHL or ECHL, then fine. But the AHL has a very high level of talent and I'd say 75% of players who make it to the NHL nowadays come through the AHL system.

The Monsters aren't a good team, I'll grant you that. It's largely because Colorado was in a position to take guys like Matt Duchene, Ryan O'Reilly, Ryan Wilson (played one game for LEM) and Brandon Yip straight from Juniors/NCAA. But, of the Avs current roster, 10 guys came through Cleveland over the past couple seasons.

Only three guys from the Barons remain on the Sharks roster, but other guys like Josh Gorges, Marcel Goc and Matt Carkner are spread throughout the league. A handful of current Sharks played for Worcester after the team moved there.

The AHL is hampered by the under 20 rule and the international transfer. The first part is that any player having played North American junior/collegiate hockey cannot make the jump to the AHL until they turn 20. If they're playing NCAA, they simply stay and play out their four years. If they're playing major junior, they're ready by the time they turn 20 or they play half a season in the AHL and then make the jump.

The international transfer involves IIHF and its a very tough process. Recently, Vladislav Tretiak and others in the IIHF have made it easier for transfer agreements to go through, but many players overseas would prefer to play with their junior teams or elite league teams in Europe above the AHL. It's not because the AHL is inferior, it's because they don't want to leave home. More and more Euro players are playing in Canadian junior leagues now.

So rather than make blanket statements about how minor league hockey is "not very good hockey", explain what you mean. I already outlined the reasoning for why it isn't a top notch product, but AHL teams like Hershey, Manchester, Milwaukee, Hamilton, Manitoba, and others almost always have a good product on the ice.

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe

You do realize a expansion hockey team isn't going to win for awhile, right? A while their not winning only the hardcore are gonna give a shit, especially once that new shine wears off. If the teams sucks and their colors ain't Brown and Orange those fairweather fans aren't gonna pay to see 'em.

Like I said, root for the Blue Jackets.

The Blue Jackets are banking on an affiliation agreement with the Monsters. The Monsters agreement with Colorado ends in two years. The Jackets have a one year agreement with Springfield with a second option year.

So, CBJ picks up that option, waits for LEM's to run out with COL, and there you have it. Renewed interest in the Blue Jackets from Northeast Ohio.

Here's how it is up here CDT. The Cavs take precedence on FSN. So, if the Jackets and Cavs play at the same time, you're dicked. Time Warner has an FSNBJ channel that shows only the Jackets. If I'm lucky on U-Verse, the Jackets are on FSN Cincy. But on U-Verse, I get FS Detroit and FS Pittsburgh. So, if I'm a fan of either one of those two, I get that game.

There's a disconnect between the Cleveland area and the Blue Jackets because so many people already have allegiances prior to 2000. I see a lot of Sabres stuff around here. Obviously the Wings and Pens fans. Not to mention, the Jackets haven't sustained any success while the other three fan bases have playoff seasons and a Cup from each of the Wings and Pens.

You'll see a spike if the affiliation agreements fall in line. And honestly, they make perfect sense. It would bother me because CBJ blows at drafting and they haven't seemed to care much about Syracuse over the past couple seasons. COL, meanwhile, drafts fairly well. But, if it shakes down the way I expect it to, you'll get more Jackets fans up here.

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe

We have ALOT of holdovers here from before 2000. Many many many Red Wings and Penguins fans.

Too bad FSN can't have a feature to let fans choose what programming they want to see. CBJ hockey or Cavs basketball. Down here when the CBJ is on, channel 24 (TW free preview or some shit) has the Cavs game. Don't understand why NEO can't have the same choice.

Not going to happen. This city barely has enough fans/entertainment $$ to support three teams it has now. Adding a fourth "major" would stretch the support out even further, ultimately leading to the collapse of one franchise.

Now, if you want to replace a major sport with another- that could happen, but again- this isn't a growing market and may be too small to really support three majors. As far as Arena or MISL- check the ticket prices, I've got to assume they are cheaper and appeal to a different market (family friendly, less corporate) than NHL would demand.

Gotta look South to get your NHL, college football, and MLS fix. See, Columbus is good for something!

Cleveland should support the Blue Jackets if they want to suport an NHL team. Having a team in Cleveland and Columbus makes little sense. NHL would fail in Cleveland.

Dude, his argument is seriously that since OSU and the CBJ advertise in NEO, we're only after their money and that some people in Columbus laugh at Cleveland .... I'd be there are some people in Cleveland that laugh at Cleveland and vice versa.

So you're calling me out for standing up for the hometown, while you LIVE in Columbus.

First you call me out for saying something anti-Cleveland 2 years ago, then you call me out for standing up for it. Just what DO you stand for? Or are you just looking for a reason to bitch?

I've been in Columbus a lot, and how they look at the "mistake by the lake", how they dissociate and laugh at the rust belt cities, don't act like I wasn't there.

Why should I just drop the (still closer) team I have followed and watched in person, enjoyed championships with for 20+ years, for another one just because it's on Ohio? As nice as it is to finally see an Ohio NHL team with a winning record, I just haven't bought in yet. I don't live in Columbus. I see the commercials and ads. I catch a game on TV when I happen to see it. But to me, they're just another hockey team.

Spin wrote:So you're calling me out for standing up for the hometown, while you LIVE in Columbus.

First you call me out for saying something anti-Cleveland 2 years ago, then you call me out for standing up for it. Just what DO you stand for? Or are you just looking for a reason to bitch?

I've been in Columbus a lot, and how they look at the "mistake by the lake", how they dissociate and laugh at the rust belt cities, don't act like I wasn't there.

Why should I just drop the (still closer) team I have followed and watched in person, enjoyed championships with for 20+ years, for another one just because it's on Ohio? As nice as it is to finally see an Ohio NHL team with a winning record, I just haven't bought in yet. I don't live in Columbus. I see the commercials and ads. I catch a game on TV when I happen to see it. But to me, they're just another hockey team.

Spin wrote:So you're calling me out for standing up for the hometown, while you LIVE in Columbus.

First you call me out for saying something anti-Cleveland 2 years ago, then you call me out for standing up for it. Just what DO you stand for? Or are you just looking for a reason to bitch?

I've been in Columbus a lot, and how they look at the "mistake by the lake", how they dissociate and laugh at the rust belt cities, don't act like I wasn't there.

Why should I just drop the (still closer) team I have followed and watched in person, enjoyed championships with for 20+ years, for another one just because it's on Ohio? As nice as it is to finally see an Ohio NHL team with a winning record, I just haven't bought in yet. I don't live in Columbus. I see the commercials and ads. I catch a game on TV when I happen to see it. But to me, they're just another hockey team.

Standing up agianst who? Are we under attack from the maurauding hoards in Columbus or something?

skatingtripods wrote:#2 it's a minor league team in a major league city.2. The biggest argument to not having a team.

My point was, it's hard to break that minor league stigma.

3. Because it's easy to market hockey here, it's just not easy to sell the product here. As a local referee, I know that there are about 350 teams from mite to bantam. That's 5000 kids, give or take, plus their parents that you can easily market to. Not to mention the high school hockey programs.

The reason it's easy to market is because you don't have to search high and low to market it. You have the season ticket holder base and then all of the kids in this area who play hockey. Then you have the Cavs fans who are sports fans overall and hold vouchers.

Exactly, Gilbert loves hockey, and loves money even more. With the Cavs getting the parking and concession money from any arena event (as per the pact to get the Cavs out of their own building), it's simple to turn a profit with a low cost hockey team. Why spend the money on advertising? You reach a point where you get what you're going to get for a minor league team in a saturated market, and anything else you spend is a waste.

The Barons, on the other hand, didn't get that money, the Cavs did. So they only made their part of the ticket sales. They needed to advertise more, but really couldn't afford to.

4.This is a really broad statement. How many games outside of the Monsters/Barons have you seen? If you're going all the way down to Junior leagues, you're extremely mistaken. If your basis for this is doormat leagues like the USHL or ECHL, then fine. But the AHL has a very high level of talent and I'd say 75% of players who make it to the NHL nowadays come through the AHL system.

So rather than make blanket statements about how minor league hockey is "not very good hockey", explain what you mean. I already outlined the reasoning for why it isn't a top notch product, but AHL teams like Hershey, Manchester, Milwaukee, Hamilton, Manitoba, and others almost always have a good product on the ice.

[/quote]

We have a Junior A team in Wooster, very entertaining. I've seen some college on TV. What I meant was the gap between the talent level of the AHL and the talent level of the NHL is huge. Thanks to overexpansion and dilution of the talent base.

The power, speed, skill levels, you can see the difference between the NHL and the minors. And between the national teams and the NHL collectively.

Last edited by Spin on Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:19 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Let me help you out here. Pittsburgh is a rival, in part, because they hate us and laugh at us. Michigan is a rival to tOSU because, in part mind you, they hate us and laugh at us. Here's a newsflash, many people in Pittsburgh don't hate Cleveland. Many people in Michigan don't hate Ohio. Fascinating stuff.

To me Columbus is a rival.

To you Columbus isn't, because you live there or want to live there. I get that. See, I don't live there, and don't want to. I want to live in fuckin Cabo Wabo. If they had a hockey team, I'd root for them.

Spin wrote:Let me help you out here. Pittsburgh is a rival, in part, because they hate us and laugh at us. Michigan is a rival to tOSU because, in part mind you, they hate us and laugh at us. Here's a newsflash, many people in Pittsburgh don't hate Cleveland. Many people in Michigan don't hate Ohio. Fascinating stuff.

To me Columbus is a rival.

To you Columbus isn't, because you live there or want to live there. I get that. See, I don't live there, and don't want to. I want to live in fuckin Cabo Wabo. If they had a hockey team, I'd root for them.

You make no goddamn sense.

Columbus isn't a rival to me becuase I live here?

By your logic many people in Columbus DON'T laugh at you. But you already knew that, right? Since your such an expert on the city.

By your logic many people in Columbus DON'T laugh at you. But you already knew that, right? Since your such an expert on the city.

It makes perfect sense. You live in Columbus, take to their teams (since they don't compete with your Cleveland teams), and you don't see the rivalry. You don't pay any attention to it. If I lived in Cbus, I'd probably do the same goddamn thing. I'd have a hockey team on the tube several times a week, the arena right down the street. What the hell would I care about a rivalry between the cities? I'd like the teams from both.

You're the one who got your panties in a bunch and went OT when I asked why I should follow the Jackets.

You guys can twist this all around all you want, it's the only way you can keep the "blastfest" going.

Just like you dreaming up my "hatred" for Ohio State. I'm a lifelong Buckeyes fan, you can take whatever you're trying to thread in here and shove it up your ass.

Of the dozen or so forums I go to, this is the only one where some people resort to twisting a thread around, or just out-and-out lying to make them feel better about themselves. It's really a shame because there are a lot of people on here who just want to talk about sports. But when a few people are bored, their threads get hijacked.

If you honestly think that people in other cities never laugh at Cleveland, go ahead and live in your dream world. I'm not going to burst your bubble.

You're saying you don't know that other cities look down on and laugh at Cleveland. That Cleveland doesn't look down on and laugh at Akron, Youngstown. That someone from Akron doesn't take shit for explaining what LBJ said.

That Goulardi never called Parma the "Land of Pink Flamingos" and Sandusky the "Land of the Chrome Globe". "Parma? They get this show in Parma?" "They see it, but they don't get it."

You really don't think intercity rivalries exist? That the only rivalries are related to sports teams that play each other?

Don't take it personal if I refrain from joining you in singing the Barney song. But I will listen.

You want to live in Cbus for some reason. Think that might skewer your view just a bit?

Spin wrote:You're saying you don't know that other cities don't look down on and laugh at Cleveland. That Cleveland doesn't look down on and laugh at Akron, Youngstown. That someone from Akron doesn't take shit for explaining what LBJ said.

It's not surprising. But I fail to see where it makes us "rivals". It makes Columbus a better off city and I don't besmirch them for that. Bigger population, more thoughtful local leadership who are smart enough not to try and hang on to manufacturing.

You could have left it at you don't like the Blue Jackets rather than saying you don't like the Blue Jackets because Columbus looks down at us. Who's your team? Pittsburgh? You don't think Pittsburgh looks down on us? Detroit? I was there last week talking with people who worked at MGM Grand who were saying absolutely nothing sports-related and blasting Cleveland.

It comes with the territory. Cleveland deserves all the suffering it has because of all the inept leadership that the voters keep voting in. Certainly the loss of jobs is a shame to people around here, and my father was out of work twice for over a year while his steel mill underwent transition from LTV to ISG and further layoffs when it became Mittal. It's not like I haven't seen it firsthand. Plenty of guys he worked with were lucky enough to have a provision in the USWA labor agreement so that they could get retirement from LTV. My dad gets retirement from LTV + his Mittal pay.

Maybe we just have different definitions of rivalries. I don't hate those who are more well off than us because there are reasons for it. Without the Cleveland Clinic, Cleveland would be a ghost town of epic proportions.

I follow the Jackets because they're closer than my Sabres and tickets are cheaper for me to go down to a game. Plus, as I said upthread, I love going to Columbus. Easton, Polaris, the Arena District. It's a booming place and it should be.

Again, I've never heard somebody around here say "Fuck Columbus for looking down on us". Maybe in a political sense because the capital is there, but never directed toward the city. Many people envy Columbus not view it as a "rival".

A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe

FWIW - I went to tOSU for 4 years and lived in Grove Tucky for another 2 while my wife finished school. Other than that and college I've always lived in Cleveland. Never once did it cross my mind that Cbus was some kind of rival. In fact, I never remember anyone else refering to this rivalry either.

Oh, and BTW, this is Rat Tail's thread so it's OK to hijack. So don't worry about that.

I'm not putting Columbus down, by any means. I just know how us "Clevelanders" are/were treated when we went down there. In our place of business and in a couple sportsbars. Now people will act differently when they are in a like-minded crowd against one or two people who aren't. Trust me, through the years here on TCF, I know that very well. That doesn't necessarily speak for the whole city, or even a majority of the people there.

But dammit I was raised to stick up for the home town. Whether it's Doylestown (where I grew up), Wadsworth (where I live and my son plays), Akron (our "home city" and school I attend), Cleveland (our pro sports home town). You pick on them, you're in for a fight. LOL. Right or wrong. Akron and Cleveland may be shit holes, but they're my shit holes.

It may be just a few ass holes speaking for the whole bunch, but that sticks in a person's mind. Kind of like when someone takes it personal when someone else from Akron says they have more fun at Aeros games than Tribe games. Or explains what an Akron athlete meant about Cleveland...

I'm not putting Columbus down, by any means. I just know how us "Clevelanders" are/were treated when we went down there. In our place of business and in a couple sportsbars

lol. You act like you got treated like a black person trying to eat at a lunch counter in 1950's Alabama. I'm sooooo sorry that someone might have been rude to you in a sportsbar Please on behalf of the whole city of Columbus please accept my heartfelt apology. It must have been terrible, but you're handling it well. Do you know how many people have been complete assholes to me at Browns games? A-fucking-lot but that doesn't I take it out on the city of Cleveland as a whole.

Ziner wrote:I hate Columbus, but only because CDT lives there. Bet he lives on Gay Street.

...uh oh... not again...

Enjoy your communist students you dope smoking hippie dimscum.

Motherscratcher wrote:FWIW - I went to tOSU for 4 years and lived in Grove Tucky for another 2 while my wife finished school. Other than that and college I've always lived in Cleveland. Never once did it cross my mind that Cbus was some kind of rival. In fact, I never remember anyone else refering to this rivalry either.

If you are going to talk about how Columbus uses it's political clout as the state's capital to promote Central Ohio's economic engine over Northeast Ohio's, then you hit on the paranoia and resentment a few Clevelander's have for Columbus.

I've never seen those accusations substantiated or documented, but have heard a couple older NEO businessmen bitch to that end: That Columbus is where we've sent our state taxes for decades and politicians have used it to build up the capital city's economy/population and allowed it's former meal ticket (C-town) go to shit.

My take is about the existence of the sentiment, not that it's justified. Would love to see some studies/research to justify it either way- I've found none beyond anecdotal.

And, I think this thread happened two or three years ago, too. CDT was in it. Please don't pull it up and quote my presumably bad old take. I couldn't take that.

And, I think this thread happened two or three years ago, too. CDT was in it. Please don't pull it up and quote my presumably bad old take. I couldn't take that.

lol. I can barely remember what happened 2 or 3 days ago....

My opinion Columbus should help Cleveland as much as we can without hurting our own city. We're all Ohioians, the best Americans. But Columbus has spent money much more wisely than Cleveland, our mayor and city leaders (Republicans included) have done really well, they've made the city very business friendly. Taxes have gone up a bit since the recession started but you really don't hear people bitching. Mike Coleman is a top notch mayor, even Republicans like him, his last election he won by almost 50 points (despite the vast majority of Repub leaders not wanting to challenge him because they knew he'd win by a landslide). And Columbus is a almost 45/45 split Dem/Repup with about 10% independents. The election before that the Republicans didn't even run against him.

Please don't take this as bragging, i'm just proud of my hometown. I really like Cleveland, I enjoy coming up there. I want to see it do well.

Motherscratcher wrote:FWIW - I went to tOSU for 4 years and lived in Grove Tucky for another 2 while my wife finished school. Other than that and college I've always lived in Cleveland. Never once did it cross my mind that Cbus was some kind of rival. In fact, I never remember anyone else refering to this rivalry either.

Where did you live when you went to OSU?

My first year I lived on Worthington St close to King Ave. I was 62 steps from Buffalo Bills, the best place on earth to get wings after drinking. Until the health dept shut them down. Fuckin' fascists.

My next 3 years I lived in a house close to the corner of 9th and Neil.

Motherscratcher wrote:FWIW - I went to tOSU for 4 years and lived in Grove Tucky for another 2 while my wife finished school. Other than that and college I've always lived in Cleveland. Never once did it cross my mind that Cbus was some kind of rival. In fact, I never remember anyone else refering to this rivalry either.

Where did you live when you went to OSU?

My first year I lived on Worthington St close to King Ave. I was 62 steps from Buffalo Bills, the best place on earth to get wings after drinking. Until the health dept shut them down. Fuckin' fascists.

My next 3 years I lived in a house close to the corner of 9th and Neil.