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It's little known that, in its orchestral guise, the first Mephisto Waltz is paired with one of his finest orchestral works: Der nächtliche Zug (some say one of his finest in general: "a masterpiece of musical picture painting") as part as the Deux épisodes d'apres le Faust de Lenau. He also wrote a solo piano transcription of the latter, and Liszt intended them to be played together (in the orchestral from, but I don't see why it would be any different for the piano versions). Unfortunately (IMO) the Mephisto Waltz is better in the piano version, and the Midnight Procession in its orchestral one (the piano transcription strikes me as a rather perfunctory effort). Still, it would be nice to see Liszt's intentions honored from time to time, in either form.

Wow. I've always been somewhat frustrated with Liszt's Dante Sonata. Its first ten minutes are perhaps my very favourite ten minutes in all of piano music but I usually find after that it gets somewhat tedious. Just now, for the first time I heard a performance that convinces me of the whole thing. I don't know why I hadn't heard this before, given the pianist!

Arrau once again confirms his place as my favourite Liszt pianist (Bolet is close). He takes Liszt as seriously as any other composer (as it should be) and plays every note with a purely musical intention - and Arrau's musicianship is as distinguished as any.

yes, I'm really attracted to extreme romanticism. Early on I was a Mahler fan, and his scores really reveal an untempered Romantic at work. On my youtube channel marknicol7 I have a work, Ulysses, the first movement of Symphony in Indigo, which I best describe as Super-Romanticism. It draws from the ethos of Mahler and Wagner.

I get what you mean about freedom, and freedom is the most dangerous thing. Mahler was obliquely critical of Brahms for 'not doing enough' with his themes: More likely, he didn't like Brahms' conservative nature.

Having dinner with a concert pianist, Gil Sullivan, tomorrow night - so I will bring up Liszt, which he plays quite a bit. Would be good to get Alexandre Dossin's views too. Any chance of hearing your playing?

I posted the current sketch for the Chopinesque piece on the site below:

Not at this point, no. I've been out of action for a couple years now as far as actually playing the piano goes. There are a few reasons for this, none that I will detail here...I'm in more of a listening stage at the moment.

Thanks for the link to the piece - you've obviously noticed you'll get more of a reception here than on pianostreet. Why did you put it there, might I ask? Regardless, I enjoyed listening to it. I'm not the one to offer much insight but it was certainly enjoyable - higher quality than most of the stuff linked to piano forums! You're obviously a rather accomplished composer, when did you start composing? What's your background in the area?

As for the symphony, well I will be sure to listen to it when I have the time.

So I fought it for a long, but I've finally caught the lizst bug. I've been listening to him non stop this week. The Bm Sonata and the 2nd Ballade are simply mind blowing. Have any of you listened to Valentina Lisita's recording of the ballade? She uses a 97 key bosendorfe piano that is incredible. And she uses those extra low notes at a certain point. It just sounds so so good.

Only just saw this too - good to hear! I hope his music continues to gives you much pleasure, as it has all of us here.

I have heard the Lisitsa. I'm not completely rapt about the performance itself (although I do like it) but the effect of the extra low notes is stupendous indeed.

Hi Josh,serious composition started only about 7 years ago, and is very slow, but I have written three books on environmentalism in that period - and have to earn a crust too.

Didn't get the opportunity to talk much Liszt with Gil, although he said Chopin is actually harder to play, because his writing is less idiomatically pianistic. This kind of ties in with my feeling that Liszt tends to let his fingers do a lot of the writing, compared to Chopin, i.e. sheer facility starts to take a hand over cogitated aesthetics. I would liken this, in the jazz field, say, to the essential difference between Miles Davis and James Morrison - although here the difference is far greater - one is largely all about aesthetics, art, and the other is just unbridled facility.

As a composer one must be critical of oneself, and of one's models too. Superfluity, as an artist, was also a hallmark of Liszt's super-romantic nature - and for it, he paid a price. A more judicious artist would have written less, and aimed for more perfected works - (note the previous comments upon the Dante Sonata). But one cannot temper a volcanic outpouring, and so excess and flaws must become part of the flux. I think this, perhaps, indicates also how Liszt is best played. Hence my love of Cziffra. As for Arrau, I find his Chopin was too affected - excessively feminine. He can't nearly match Cziffra, in a work such as the Mephisto. He is not in the same technical league, not, for me, at all in the right aesthetic place. Still, I don't like Cziffra playing anything else, much, but Liszt.

About the Dante Sonata -- anyone else have favorite recordings of this piece? I'm performing it right now, and the thing is really a peach to play -- nothing too unfriendly. Although, the tremolos in the paradise bit strike me as uninspired, and I have to seriously resist the urge to rewrite those bars.

Where is a good place to start with Liszt? Can anyone suggest a piece of reasonable length, but not massively difficult. If it helps I am currently studying: Beethoven op.14 no.1,op.51 no.1. Debussy: Danses le Duelph (prelude book 1 no.1) and dr Gradus and parnassum, Chopin Scherzo no.2, and Polonaise op.44 and op.55 nocturne

Where is a good place to start with Liszt? Can anyone suggest a piece of reasonable length, but not massively difficult. If it helps I am currently studying: Beethoven op.14 no.1,op.51 no.1. Debussy: Danses le Duelph (prelude book 1 no.1) and dr Gradus and parnassum, Chopin Scherzo no.2, and Polonaise op.44 and op.55 nocturne

What does reasonable length mean? 5 minutes? 8 minutes? 10? 15? And what does studying mean? How are you going with the pieces? I'm particularly interested in the Op. 44 Polonaise and the Scherzo No. 2. Lastly, have you asked your teacher?

I'm considering playing one of the Années de pèlerinage soon just as a way into liszt.

A good place to start! What are you thinking of starting with?

Not sure. I adore the jeux d'eaux from the third book, but I don't know if that's the one I want to start with. Getting the right touch on that piece will be difficult at best. There was one that I stumbled across last week in the car, just had my spotify going through some liszt album on there, and it was glorious but for the life of me I can't find it right now. :[.

I'm considering playing one of the Années de pèlerinage soon just as a way into liszt.

A good place to start! What are you thinking of starting with?

Not sure. I adore the jeux d'eaux from the third book, but I don't know if that's the one I want to start with. Getting the right touch on that piece will be difficult at best. There was one that I stumbled across last week in the car, just had my spotify going through some liszt album on there, and it was glorious but for the life of me I can't find it right now. :[.

Here i'll try to help, when I think of "glorious" in the Annees de Pelerinage firstly I think of...

I'll go with Ian on the 5th, but the 4th is really something to contend with.

Magnificent!

Edit: I'm having BIG issues at the moment with Percy Whitlock (and pity my Facebook friends), a British organ and church music composer which should have had a far greater career than he did.

And thus I don't really understand why Liszt's 4th Rhapsody is so neglected. Funny how it goes.

Thanks, Jason. I'm not as intimately familar with Liszt's HR's as I am most of his collections (quite a few of them I wouldn't be able to hum without hearing part of it first), and the 4th is one I haven't given much attention...but it is terrific.

I think Liszt's Rhapsodies are underrated in general. So often they're used as examples to trash Liszt, but they form such an important part of his output. They're just so fun, pianistically brilliant and innovative, colourful, dancey, with that wonderful Hungarian tang... and at times profoundly moving (like the 5th, some of the lassan sections). I only think it's a problem when people hear some of the more extroverted ones without being well-versed in Liszt's other music and get this impression of Liszt as a fun, brilliant but not particularly profound composer. When seen as just another side to him they should only magnify his status.

A favourite of mine that hasn't been listed is 1. One of the most charming pieces I know.

I used to disregard Liszt's HR's as being a weak, unimportant, hollow part of Liszt's output, but not anymore. I now realise just how much I like them, how enjoyable each and every one is.

Litanies de Marie is a work that Liszt included in the 1847 cycle of the Harmonies poetiques et religiueses, but didn't revise into the later one (despite a thematic relation with the Invocation, although that relationship was evident with the earlier version of the Invocation too) because of his broken relationship with the Countess 'Marie' d'agoult. It's unfortunate because, despite some lesser passages and perhaps going on for too long, it is certainly a work that's worthy of more frequent hearing and it being revised and inserted into the later cycle would have assured that. IMO it could have been a worthy addition to the large works in the later cycle, Benediction, Funerailles, and Pensees if it had that last bit of editoral shrewdness.

pianoloverus
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Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King

Currently, my favorite HR is No. 12!

When Van Cliburn was entering the kind of competitions where he got to choose the first piece he played he usually performed the HR 12 as his first piece. Even though most would think this is not a good or appropriate piece to perform as your choice to start, the thinking was that he played it so well that it would create a terrific impression.

Although, the tremolos in the paradise bit strike me as uninspired, and I have to seriously resist the urge to rewrite those bars.

I agree with this. It's somewhat banal in retrospect. That being said, done well (like Arrau) they can sound lovely in the context of the music, despite this perceived banality.

I disagree. I think it's one of those situations where the written music actually works, but ultimately the performer fails to deliver. Not that it's easy by any means. The tragic example I always fall back to is the Rondo of Beethoven's Waldstein - I think one of the greatest sonatas committed to paper, and most often disappointing when played... I can hear in my head what it's supposed to be, and no one (my unfortunate amateur self included) comes close to getting it right. I remain amazed at the glories of listening to a magical Beethoven performance: Gilels @ Op 57, Arrau @ 111, many I've enjoyed @ the fiendishly difficult Op 109, yet, everyone seems to fall flat on his/her face when it comes to Op 53. There's an Argerich performance that floated around YouTube a couple years back that I greatly enjoyed, but even my darling Argerich couldn't deliver a performance of the Rondo that left me completely satisfied.

On the Dante - there's a Lise de la Salle performance getting a lot of playtime on Sirius Classical/Pops. I've heard it like 3 times in the last month alone. A fine performance, if anything can actually come close to satisfactory for this incredibly difficult (and I mean musically difficult!) masterpiece. I think part of what captivates me about this performance is that although she's mid-20s now and I'm sure she's physically grown and matured, in my head I still picture a petite 16-year old blonde haired prodigy pounding out such powerful music. I heard her perform Ravel and Prokofiev live back in 2008 at barely 20 years old, and oh my, what a mature musician she was even back then.

There's also a live recording by Kemal Gekic that I greatly enjoy (parts of.) He's a bit quirky (check out photos of his often wild mane, he would almost look like Liszt were he blonde) but MAN, does he bring the house down with those final chords and that thundering closing tremolo. I'm surprised he didn't break a string (or his wrist!) Or maybe he did...

-Daniel

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Currently working on:-Dane Rudhyar's Stars from Pentagrams No 3

Although, the tremolos in the paradise bit strike me as uninspired, and I have to seriously resist the urge to rewrite those bars.

I agree with this. It's somewhat banal in retrospect. That being said, done well (like Arrau) they can sound lovely in the context of the music, despite this perceived banality.

I'm curious to know what you guys think of the opening of The Benediction. Now THERE are some lousy tremolos. Cringeworthy. I rolled my eyes the first time I listened to the work, and probably let out an "Oh God..." but in a different tone than Liszt intended. But if you get past the first 1/3 of banality, oh what a glorious work. Every great composer had his duds (though I'm starting to wonder if Bach had any) but for all the $|#% that Liszt gets, it really doesn't matter, because I am so grateful that he left us such gorgeous music as the second and third "thirds" of the Benediction.

-Daniel

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Currently working on:-Dane Rudhyar's Stars from Pentagrams No 3

Although, the tremolos in the paradise bit strike me as uninspired, and I have to seriously resist the urge to rewrite those bars.

I agree with this. It's somewhat banal in retrospect. That being said, done well (like Arrau) they can sound lovely in the context of the music, despite this perceived banality.

I'm curious to know what you guys think of the opening of The Benediction. Now THERE are some lousy tremolos. Cringeworthy. I rolled my eyes the first time I listened to the work, and probably let out an "Oh God..." but in a different tone than Liszt intended. But if you get past the first 1/3 of banality, oh what a glorious work. Every great composer had his duds (though I'm starting to wonder if Bach had any) but for all the $|#% that Liszt gets, it really doesn't matter, because I am so grateful that he left us such gorgeous music as the second and third "thirds" of the Benediction.

-Daniel

Now I love the tremolos you're talking about. They are the utmost in sheer religious serenity and calm beauty (and I don't think banal is a word you can describe it as, considering when it was written!). It's the sheer simplicity of religious faith that I think is so effective, and it logically progresses from this simplicity to the parts you find so glorious. I think it's one of his finest piano works.

I have to give a comment in regards to the Poetic and Religious Harmonies as a whole...what a remarkable cycle of music! Perhaps a little bit uneven if you look at the single works, but taken as a whole it's an irresistable, glorious outpouring of the highest and lowest points of spiritual experience, and everything in between. Liszt intended it to be played as a cycle, and while at first glance it seems somewhat incongruous, I think it works superbly. Liszt, in this case, wasn't interested in the little details in order to connect the work like, say, Chopin in his Preludes, but more just a general, conceptual connection. Again I have to recommend Johansen (perhaps only because hé's one of the only full recording in one video and youtube, but he does do very well):

As for your comments on the Dante, well I actually think I agree with you (after hearing Arrau's sublime performance). I haven't heard De Salle and Gekic, I shall make a note of doing so.

If endless tremolos bother you, it may be because they aren't played on the right piano: I've been listening to Liszt's Piano Concerto No.1 and his transcription of Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony played on Erards of the period, and they sound great - tremolos and all.....

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"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."