It has been said that the I Haplogroup was carried in great numbers in the Dark Age "invasions" of Britain and that, as it is also thought that the newcomers heavily settled the east of Britain, but had a much smaller effect upon the west, that the ratio of I/R1b is highest in the east and lowest in the west. I believe this picture has been supported by Y-DNA testing.

Of course it is just a finger in the air estimate, but is this really the best simple indicator to use? Isn't R1b-U106 also thought to have arrived in Britain largely during the Dark Ages? If this is the case then the ratio I/R must be rather polluted by the U106s.

Wouldn't it be better to look at the ratio of R1b-U106 to R1b-P312? Has anyone done this and are there any stats/maps showing this ratio?

It has been said that the I Haplogroup was carried in great numbers in the Dark Age "invasions" of Britain and that, as it is also thought that the newcomers heavily settled the east of Britain, but had a much smaller effect upon the west, that the ratio of I/R1b is highest in the east and lowest in the west. I believe this picture has been supported by Y-DNA testing.

Of course it is just a finger in the air estimate, but is this really the best simple indicator to use? Isn't R1b-U106 also thought to have arrived in Britain largely during the Dark Ages? If this is the case then the ratio I/R must be rather polluted by the U106s.

Wouldn't it be better to look at the ratio of R1b-U106 to R1b-P312? Has anyone done this and are there any stats/maps showing this ratio?

The best estimates is around 40-45% U106 and 55-55% P312 in England proper of the 70% R1b-M269. This is based on percentages provided by the Busby and Myres studies. So, if R1b-M269 represents about 70% of the male lineages in England proper and then of that 70% U106 is around 40-45% and P312 is 55-60% you would have to figure out what those percentages are in relation to 70% to figure out the exact relation of U106 to the whole, which would include the 70% R1b and 30% other, which inludes all the various haplogroups, R1a, I, G, E and so on.

You're talking about the overall % though not the difference in the U106/P312 ratio between different regions. As an example, what is the U106/P312 ratio in Suffolk compared to in Powys (ignoring all other HGs)?

You're talking about the overall % though not the difference in the U106/P312 ratio between different regions. As an example, what is the U106/P312 ratio in Suffolk compared to in Powys (ignoring all other HGs)?

Someone posted the percentages by region on another forum. I will attempt to copy and paste them here. Don't hold your breath. You'll probably pass out from lack of oxygen before I find them, let alone figure out how to copy and paste. The only issue they are only broken down into north east, south east, north west, south west England.

north east, south east, north west, south west is better than nothing although comparing the mid-west to east anglia would probably be the best regions to look at. If the respective I/R ratios were also posted it would be interesting to see them alongside the U106/P312 values for comparison.

north east, south east, north west, south west is better than nothing although comparing the mid-west to east anglia would probably be the best regions to look at. If the respective I/R ratios were also posted it would be interesting to see them alongside the U106/P312 values for comparison.

You might find this interesting. Webb is an occupational surname of pre-Norman origin as far as entomology. There are 31 lineages on the Webb surname DNA project. 14 are confirmed P312, 8 confirmed U106, several are confirmed as various other haplogroups a few are just M269. The lineages are from all four corners of England proper. I have a theory that the lower classes, meaning the serfs or working class celts were left largely intact by the incoming Anglo-Saxon invaders. I think that it was like a wave, the point of impact, or the east of England had the largest impact genetically, and as you leave the point of impact, the genetic impact becomes less. I would love to have enough time to investigate English occupational names and see the ratio of P312 to U106.

You might find this interesting. Webb is an occupational surname of pre-Norman origin as far as entomology. The lineages are from all four corners of England proper.

When the name was first used and when the majority of people adopted it (or were assigned it by the then tax collectors;-)) are two different things.

Studies of medieval documents generally point to the peasant majority only adopting permanent surnames in the late 1300s so the distribution of an occupational surname like Webb is more likely to be linked to where there was demand for said occupation. In the case of weavers perhaps this was near sheep producing areas, or perhaps near market towns or perhaps at ports where yarn was imported.

I have a theory that the lower classes, meaning the serfs or working class celts were left largely intact by the incoming Anglo-Saxon invaders. I think that it was like a wave, the point of impact, or the east of England had the largest impact genetically, and as you leave the point of impact, the genetic impact becomes less. I would love to have enough time to investigate English occupational names and see the ratio of P312 to U106.

My understanding is that there was quite a difference between the Angles and Saxons, i.e., the Saxons immigrated gradually from Roman times and slowly spread their influence by further immigration and taking out rival leaders and their supporters, whereas the Angles arrived en masse and slaughtered anyone in what is now East Anglia then sailed up to Scotland and moved south down the NE edge of England again slaughtering anyone in their way. Once they had secured themselves in their initial kingdoms they throttled back the slaughter and just took out the remaining elite to take control of the remaining Britains who were now concentrated in the western half of the England plus Wales.

Just as the Roman empire was built on slavery, I would hazard a guess and say that the only way the Angles could have rampaged around the remainder of England, without becoming over-extended, and at the same time been producing enough food to support their families, was by enslaving the captured Britains.

From the point of view of who was likely to have survived amongst the ancient Brits those with the least chances of survival were perhaps:-

1) anyone that lived in the east 2) tribal leaders and their families 3) strong peasants who were conscripted to fight for their leaders

i.e. if you lived in the western half of England/Wales, were of an undistinguished physical build, and kept your head down harvesting turnips, your family stood a fair chance of pulling through the dark ages intact. If you were a heroic warrior type, you could forget it!

You might find this interesting. Webb is an occupational surname of pre-Norman origin as far as entomology. The lineages are from all four corners of England proper.

When the name was first used and when the majority of people adopted it (or were assigned it by the then tax collectors;-)) are two different things.

Studies of medieval documents generally point to the peasant majority only adopting permanent surnames in the late 1300s so the distribution of an occupational surname like Webb is more likely to be linked to where there was demand for said occupation. In the case of weavers perhaps this was near sheep producing areas, or perhaps near market towns or perhaps at ports where yarn was imported.

I have a theory that the lower classes, meaning the serfs or working class celts were left largely intact by the incoming Anglo-Saxon invaders. I think that it was like a wave, the point of impact, or the east of England had the largest impact genetically, and as you leave the point of impact, the genetic impact becomes less. I would love to have enough time to investigate English occupational names and see the ratio of P312 to U106.

My understanding is that there was quite a difference between the Angles and Saxons, i.e., the Saxons immigrated gradually from Roman times and slowly spread their influence by further immigration and taking out rival leaders and their supporters, whereas the Angles arrived en masse and slaughtered anyone in what is now East Anglia then sailed up to Scotland and moved south down the NE edge of England again slaughtering anyone in their way. Once they had secured themselves in their initial kingdoms they throttled back the slaughter and just took out the remaining elite to take control of the remaining Britains who were now concentrated in the western half of the England plus Wales.

Just as the Roman empire was built on slavery, I would hazard a guess and say that the only way the Angles could have rampaged around the remainder of England, without becoming over-extended, and at the same time been producing enough food to support their families, was by enslaving the captured Britains.

From the point of view of who was likely to have survived amongst the ancient Brits those with the least chances of survival were perhaps:-

1) anyone that lived in the east 2) tribal leaders and their families 3) strong peasants who were conscripted to fight for their leaders

i.e. if you lived in the western half of England/Wales, were of an undistinguished physical build, and kept your head down harvesting turnips, your family stood a fair chance of pulling through the dark ages intact. If you were a heroic warrior type, you could forget it!

My thoughts exactly. If you kept your head down, and were able to produce items that the incoming invaders deemed valuable, or at least better than what they were able to produce, then I would imagine you would have survived. Examples would be weaving, maybe goldsmiths, blacksmiths, and other trades people.

This is info from the Busby paper on "The Peopling of Europe" and was provided by a poster on another forum. The P312* category was published before the discovery of DF27, so it is assumed that the majority of this P312* is made up by the DF27 clades SRY2627 and mine, Z220. There could also be some L238 in there which is a Scandanavian oriented clade under P312.

So in the east and southeast of England, DF27 is actually prevalent over L21 (or it can be assumed so, anyway). Interesting

You have noticed the same thing I did. U106 is very stable, it has roughly the same percentage in all four areas. U152 is the same, except in the southeast. However, L21 and P312* seem to have a relationship. Where one is higher, the other is lower and vice versa. It makes me wonder if that is a result of a pre-Anglo-Saxon interaction.

I didn't use any of the Myres data listed on Busby's spreadsheet. The sample sizes were smaller. Myres has P312xL21, U152 at 22.7% in Ireland Southwest, but with a sample size of just 22. That seems an odd result, given Busby's figures with bigger sample sizes.

So in the east and southeast of England, DF27 is actually prevalent over L21 (or it can be assumed so, anyway). Interesting

However, L21 and P312* seem to have a relationship. Where one is higher, the other is lower and vice versa. It makes me wonder if that is a result of a pre-Anglo-Saxon interaction.

Bear in mind that there has been a stream of immigrants flowing into England in every century that you can think of. Probably a large % of these newer immigrants entered where the channel was narrowest, i.e. Kent, London, Essex & Suffolk which is exactly the area P312* appears to be elevated.

When you look at the surnames of places like Kent and Suffolk since as recently as the 1500s they still have a lot of names like "Dutch", "Spain", "German", and other non-English names that have since become anglicised. The Kentish ports were full of merchants/sailors, many of whom were of foreign origin and ended up settling in England. And then London of course was re-populated by the Normans after 1066 and has seen a steady influx of immigrants ever since.

In other words it can be argued that if any haplogroup is highest in the southeast corner, it says more about the most recent immigrants rather than the older ones.

Thanks. What exactly is the definition of Central England and were there figures for Wales?

I'm going to guess the Midlands, maybe. And why yes, I can post the results for Scotland and Wales. Please note, that if the majority of P312*, which I would suspect it is, not every drop, but the majority, then the invasion/migration pattern will be more muddled. As there are at least four varieties of DF27 found in the isles and could represent that many different waves.

I'm not sure we'll be able to say much about a paragroup like P312*. I wouldn't assume that all of it is DF27. It could be a mix of things with different affiliations and histories.

I agree. While recent testing indicates that somewhere around 80% of P312* (XL21,U152) is DF27+, this is undoubtedly skewed by the fact that virtually 100% of P312* in Iberia is DF27. So the percentage of P312* which is DF27 in the British Isles is somewhat lower.

Busby's P312* would also include a smaller portion of DF19, which appears to be confined to northern Europe.

As for the P312** (XL21,U152,DF27,DF19,L238), the numbers have grown considerably in the past few months from a handful to 31. A close study suggests this is a heterogenous group, and probably consists of two or three smaller subclades with different distributions, although overwhelmingly northern.

So it might be fair to assume that nearly all P312* in Iberia is DF27, but that certainly wouldn't be accurate for P312* in Britain.

I think when you look at the Busby data for the British Isles, you see a predominantly L21+ zone running from SW England, at about 38% L21+, through Wales, at about 50% L21+, up into northwest England, at about 40% L21+, and Scotland, at about 50-60% L21+. As one moves east into and through England (Angle Land), he begins to see L21 fade (but never below about 13% at its ebb in East England).

In England, U106 seems to run a fairly consistent rate of 20-25%. U152 and P312xL21,U152 pick up in the east, and I suspect some of the slack left by the decrease in L21 is also taken up by I1, although that doesn't show up in Busby. The pretty obvious conclusion, despite relatively recent continental input into SE England, is that these data reflect the Germanic heritage of the English, especially in the east and southeast, versus the predominantly Celtic heritage further west and north, in southwest England, Wales, northwest England, and Scotland.

So in the east and southeast of England, DF27 is actually prevalent over L21 (or it can be assumed so, anyway). Interesting

You have noticed the same thing I did. U106 is very stable, it has roughly the same percentage in all four areas. U152 is the same, except in the southeast. However, L21 and P312* seem to have a relationship. Where one is higher, the other is lower and vice versa. It makes me wonder if that is a result of a pre-Anglo-Saxon interaction.

I'm surprised at how stable U106 is, throughout all regions. I would expect a considerably higher presence in the east/southeast regions. Judging by that data, one could even be misled to think P312*/DF27 was the dominant subclade among the angles and saxons.

So in the east and southeast of England, DF27 is actually prevalent over L21 (or it can be assumed so, anyway). Interesting

You have noticed the same thing I did. U106 is very stable, it has roughly the same percentage in all four areas. U152 is the same, except in the southeast. However, L21 and P312* seem to have a relationship. Where one is higher, the other is lower and vice versa. It makes me wonder if that is a result of a pre-Anglo-Saxon interaction.

I'm surprised at how stable U106 is, throughout all regions. I would expect a considerably higher presence in the east/southeast regions. Judging by that data, one could even be misled to think P312*/DF27 was the dominant subclade among the angles and saxons.

U106 is noticeably higher in the south and east of England than it is in the north and west. When one crosses the border into Wales and again into Scotland, it drops like a rock. In Ireland, it dwindles even further.

The odd U106 high point in Busby's NE Scotland sample probably reflects the settlement of Northumbrians (Angles) there by King David I in the 12th century.

So in the east and southeast of England, DF27 is actually prevalent over L21 (or it can be assumed so, anyway). Interesting

You have noticed the same thing I did. U106 is very stable, it has roughly the same percentage in all four areas. U152 is the same, except in the southeast. However, L21 and P312* seem to have a relationship. Where one is higher, the other is lower and vice versa. It makes me wonder if that is a result of a pre-Anglo-Saxon interaction.

I'm surprised at how stable U106 is, throughout all regions. I would expect a considerably higher presence in the east/southeast regions. Judging by that data, one could even be misled to think P312*/DF27 was the dominant subclade among the angles and saxons.

U106 is noticeably higher in the south and east of England than it is in the north and west. When one crosses the border into Wales and again into Scotland, it drops like a rock. In Ireland, it dwindles even further.

The odd U106 high point in Busby's NE Scotland sample probably reflects the settlement of Northumbrians (Angles) there by King David I in the 12th century.

Also note that U152 is highest in southeast England. I think Degredado brings up a good point. Either the Anglo-Saxon invasions left a much stronger linguistic and cultural impact then a genetic one, or some subclades of U152 and DF27 were brought into Britain with the Anglo-Saxons.

Is the difference in U106/U152 ratio between north and south due to the small sample size or is this a genuine difference? Is there any other data to verify this?

2 things that might have made a difference bwteen north and south are the normans overrunning the top of Wales but striking alliances with inidigenous princes in the south and, I think, perhaps the greater effect would be an influx of english in the 17 & 1800s seeking employment in the coal mines and steel works around Cardiff/Swansea. Did Busby filter these out (is it possible even?)

Just to point out something that always gets overlooked (or perhaps people don't understand its significance?) is that the Haplogroup % breakdown by region is only one way of looking at things but can skew things if looked at just on its own.

If you look at the approx % results above we have:-

South East L21 % = 15 Wales L21 (av) % = 50

but when you take into consideration the absolute populations of the two areas which are approx:-

South East = 20 to 30,000,000 Wales = 3,000,000

the L21 population of each area can be projected to be:-

South East = 3,000,000 to 4,500,000 Wales = 1,500,000

i.e. the % figure implies there are more L21s in Wales than in the South East, but in real life it is the complete opposite and there are twice as many L21s in the South East than in Wales.

So in the east and southeast of England, DF27 is actually prevalent over L21 (or it can be assumed so, anyway). Interesting

You have noticed the same thing I did. U106 is very stable, it has roughly the same percentage in all four areas. U152 is the same, except in the southeast. However, L21 and P312* seem to have a relationship. Where one is higher, the other is lower and vice versa. It makes me wonder if that is a result of a pre-Anglo-Saxon interaction.

I'm surprised at how stable U106 is, throughout all regions. I would expect a considerably higher presence in the east/southeast regions. Judging by that data, one could even be misled to think P312*/DF27 was the dominant subclade among the angles and saxons.

U106 is noticeably higher in the south and east of England than it is in the north and west. When one crosses the border into Wales and again into Scotland, it drops like a rock. In Ireland, it dwindles even further.

The odd U106 high point in Busby's NE Scotland sample probably reflects the settlement of Northumbrians (Angles) there by King David I in the 12th century.

Also note that U152 is highest in southeast England. I think Degredado brings up a good point. Either the Anglo-Saxon invasions left a much stronger linguistic and cultural impact then a genetic one, or some subclades of U152 and DF27 were brought into Britain with the Anglo-Saxons.

I don't know about DF27, because we don't know how much of that P312xL21,U152 in SE England is DF27+, but I tend to think some of that U152 came with the Anglo-Saxons. Some of it may have already been there as a result of the arrival of the Belgae within living memory of Caesar's excursions into Britain 55 and 54 BC. That may account for some of the P312xL21,U152, as well.

It seems to me the Anglo-Saxons made a very significant genetic impact, if one attributes to them most if not all of the U106 in England, and probably the I1 there, as well.

Just to point out something that always gets overlooked (or perhaps people don't understand its significance?) is that the Haplogroup % breakdown by region is only one way of looking at things but can skew things if looked at just on its own.

If you look at the approx % results above we have:-

South East L21 % = 15 Wales L21 (av) % = 50

but when you take into consideration the absolute populations of the two areas which are approx:-

South East = 20 to 30,000,000 Wales = 3,000,000

the L21 population of each area can be projected to be:-

South East = 3,000,000 to 4,500,000 Wales = 1,500,000

i.e. the % figure implies there are more L21s in Wales than in the South East, but in real life it is the complete opposite and there are twice as many L21s in the South East than in Wales.

While that is true, proportions tell an important story of population history, more important than shear numbers, in my view.

No doubt the USA has more L21 than anywhere else, in terms of numbers.

No doubt the USA has more L21 than anywhere else, in terms of numbers.

Out of love for trivia I wonder what the figures really are? On the one hand the US has 5 times the population of the UK, but on the other, it has much greater proportions of hispanic, african, asian and (strangely enough!) native american.

I would guess there may be more L21s in the US than the UK, but it can't be by that much can it?