Observations and Pics: by Terry Hawker (click here)Terry would like to thank Keith Campbell of Martin B. Retting Inc., Culver City, California, for his liaison work, and Deputy Sheriff Scott O'Neill for his temporary-grip assistance, while extending very special thank you to Thomas N. Magee for generously bringing these seldom seen arms to the attention of grateful military surplus arms enthusiasts everywhere.

The Vickers-Pedersen story received an infusion of new information with the publication in the December 2008 issue of The American Rifleman, under the "Favorite Firearms" banner, with an article written by Mr. Thomas N. Magee titled, "An Unusual Vickers". As reported in the first "Collectors' Comments and Feedback" to Part One (click here) of this Vickers-Pedersen article, in 1966, Mr. Magee purchased from Martin B. Retting, the well-known dealer and store in Culver City, California, a Vickers-Pedersen, PB model rifle, a variant previously unknown to the majority of the collecting fraternity.

This fascinating bit of new Pedersen lore, something akin to the importance and excitement of a biologist discovering a new species, sparked a quest for further knowledge about this even rarer variant of a very rare rifle. With the kind assistance of Keith Campbell, still at Retting, I was fortunate enough to be able contact Mr. Magee, who was quite generous with his time, as well as the knowledge accumulated over many years of arms collecting. After a few of these very enlightening conversations on the phone, during which he revealed he also owned a Vickers-Pedersen, PA model carbine, we arranged an appointment to reunite these three, different, Pedersen models for a photo session.

Upon arriving at Mr. Magee's mountain home, he immediately added to my education by showing me a fully-loaded, 5-round clip of ammunition for the Pattern 13 Enfield, another British military rifle chambered in a .276 caliber cartridge. There can be no mistaking the .276 Enfield round for the .276 Pedersen however, as the .276 Enfield appears almost as long as a .30-'06 cartridge, but with an obviously wider base. It is not surprising, with that much available case capacity, that the hotter P-'13 round had a nasty habit of burning out barrels, leading to its early demise in the trials process. The Enfield cartridge makes the Pedersen round look puny in comparison. Not quite as dramatic a difference as that between the 7.62 and 5.56 NATO rounds certainly, but, I would think, had the more diminutive round had been adopted, it would have exhibited the same problems in WW II as the 5.56 has in our current wars.

(Click PIC to Enlarge)Photo courtesy of Jim Keenan

As I was setting up my fancy, high-end, photographic equipment, (army blanket, 6 X 6 black, pocket digital camera), Mr. Magee reiterated that when he bought the PB rifle and PA carbine, Martin B. Retting told him of the conversation he had with Vickers personnel, while there to purchase arms from the Vickers Museum. It was related then, that only 13 of the PB models were made, this small number including both rifles and carbines. In fact, in the group of arms acquired by Retting from the museum, was the serial # 1 carbine mentioned in Part One of this article, which Mr. Magee now confirms was actually a PB model. That particular carbine was consigned to the Retting collection at the time, but sold since.

Evidently, these 13 PB model rifles and carbines were almost identical in form and function to the 20 rifles and 5 carbines made up at Springfield armory for the U.S. semi-auto trials in the 1920's, (Hatcher, page 72).
Externally, the only visible external difference between the U.S. and Vickers models is the shape of the magazine cover, (Pyle,photo, page 35). Like the U.S.-made Pedersen rifles, the Vickers PB models also took a non-reversible, en-bloc clip that could only be inserted with the flat end up, while neither type had a provision to allow the ejection of a partially filled clip.

This information immediately answered my first question about the PB models, namely, were they made before, or more logically, after the more common PA models? (If any military arm with a probable production total of less than 300 units can be called "common"!) As the PA models addressed two of the major deficiencies of the Pedersen design, by employing a reversible clip, as well as ejecting a partially filled clip, by holding the bolt open and pushing forward on the trigger, it was obviously a later development. This, combined with the fact that Vickers-Armstrong produced 200-odd of these rifles and carbines, along with a handbook for them, appropriately titled the Handbook of the Pedersen Self Loading Rifle (click here), it can be safely said that the few PB models were the earlier development, as a very limited trials model, while the PA models followed on a limited production basis. Vickers had high hopes of future military orders, but such was not to be.

When I queried the well-read Mr. Magee on this seemingly, backward-alphabet sequence of model designation, he had a logical explanation. He said that John Pedersen liked to preface his design identifiers with a "P", but, as the U.S. trials rifle, marked, "U.S. SEMI AUTO RIFLE T1 - CAL. .276 PEDERSEN PATENTS", was his first design, he could hardly call the next model "PA", although it was the first produced by Vickers-Armstrong. Being his second model in the series, it naturally became the "PB" model. Being improved upon enough to go into production, with aspirations of being adopted by a military accustomed to a normal progression of model marks, this first production model then became the "PA". With only 13 PB models made and safely squirreled away at Vickers, very few people would have known of the earlier model's existence, (and still don't today, I might add). Thus any possible confusion of model sequence became a non-factor.

The "PB" to "PA" progression wasn't the only change in model designation however. What had been a "SEMI-AUTO RIFLE" in the U.S. trials, became an "AUTOLOADER" for the 13 Vickers PB models, then a "SELF-LOADER" for the PA production models. The change probably reflects nothing more than the old cliche about Yanks and Brits being one people divided by a common language.

(Click PIC to Enlarge)

Arranging the various Pedersen models with their clips and Pattern 13 bayonet on the humble army blanket was almost a religious experience for this collector of British arms. Handling a rifle as unique in design and as rare as a Pedersen is always an exciting event... Handling three such arms, each rarer than the next, is breath-taking. With great reverence, I placed these artifacts of military rifle developmental history on the blanket as carefully as I could, begging my normal penchant for clumsiness to please hold itself in abeyance. Luckily, Mr. Magee's friend, Deputy Sheriff Scott O'Neill, arrived in time to provide a steady hand to assist in the placement of the arms for photography.

The three different Vickers-Pedersen models were arranged in the order of their manufacture;

Having previously researched the little the sources have to say about the Pedersen rifles, and, finding nothing regarding the different types of en-bloc clips, Mr. Magee's practical experience in shooting and reloading for his Vickers-Pedersen models is invaluable. His experience is proof positive that the PB models take the non-reversible clip, while the PA models take the reversible clip, and, most note-worthy, that they are not interchangeable. This revelation made me realize that the photos of the PA model in Part One now depict the wrong clip with the rifle! It should be a reversible clip. Although some sources show a picture of a non-reversible clip with a U.S. Pedersen and a reversible clip with a Vickers produced example, I have yet to see any discussion anywhere of whether or not these clips were exclusive to each rifle. Very few people are familiar with the Pedersen, but of those that are that I have spoken to over the last ten years, no one could tell me if the clips were interchangeable. Now we know, so in the photos accompanying this part of the article, the correct clip for each model rifle and carbine has been placed below it.

(Click PIC to Enlarge)

NOTE: For a detailed comparison of both types of Vickers-Pedersen clips, please refer to the recently completed photo album in Part One (click here). Thanks to Clement Miller, with his contribution of photos of a U.S. non-reversible clip, we now have a complete photographic record of Pedersen clips. These photos show, that while appearing identical to the Vickers-Pedersen, PB model, non-reversible clip, a close examination of the bottom of the U.S. clip reveals that it is different enough in configuration to probably be non-interchangeable with the Vickers product. This therefore means that none of these Pedersen clips will function in any other model rifle, or carbine, other than the one that it was intended for.

Although the three Vickers-Pedersen models in these photos are all different models, views of both sides of the receivers of the Autoloader PB model rifle, Selfloader PA model rifle, as well as the Selfloader PA model carbine, show that externally, at least, in this area the three are identical. It is no doubt safe to say that the Autoloader PB carbine, if one were to be found, would be as well.

(Click PIC to Enlarge)(Click PIC to Enlarge)

(Click PIC to Enlarge)(Click PIC to Enlarge)

Our "new species", Pedersen Autoloader PB, serial # 5, is probably the most interesting of the three models depicted here. If not, it is certainly the most rare. It is the only one of the three to use the non-reversible Vickers clip. Oddly enough, on the rare occasions that Pedersen clips are encountered, it is more often than not the non-reversible type. Least common model rifle, but more common type clip...Such are the vagaries of arms collecting. If the Vickers production records for the different models of rifles, carbines and clips were available, this and a lot of other questions could be answered. It is doubtful that the answer to the dearth of reversible clips is anything as simple as, "Because there are more PA models that take these clips, collectors hang on to them and sell the non-reversible clips they can't use." Judging by how often the request comes up, quite a few PA model owners are looking for the correct, reversible, en-bloc clip, (present company included!), but, if they do have one or two, they won't part with them.

(Click PIC to Enlarge)

In a full-length comparison of the right side of the PB and PA model rifles, the two arms appear to be identical. If not for the leather Pattern '14 sling on the PB and the web sling on the PA, they would be extremely hard to tell apart. Either sling could be correct, as it has been rumored that plant guards at Vickers were equipped with these rifles during the war, thus liable to have "second-line" accessories like the leather P-'14 equipments, but, they could just as likely have had the web sling in use since WW I.

(Click PIC to Enlarge)

NOTE: Speaking of accessories, as noted in Part One of this article, the correct bayonet for the Vickers-Pedersen rifle was the same bayonet that went on the Pattern '14 rifle, that is, the Pattern '13 bayonet. Thanks to Roger Dennis for contacting the owner of a unique specimen and making us aware that there may have been another bayonet in the running. Our thanks to Martin Cook, who has graciously allowed us to use his photo, of what currently appears to be a one of a kind bayonet. Mr. Cook's bayonet bears the double edge, 12-inch blade of the earlier, Pattern '88 bayonet, but with the pommel and grooved grips of the P -'13 bayonet. This is very reminiscent of the making of the handier P-'03 bayonet originally issued with the SMLE, which was made by converting the pommel and muzzle ring of a P-'88 bayonet, but this interesting piece seems to have taken the process one step further, by mating the hilt of a P'-13 bayonet, (itself a conversion of the SMLE's later bayonet, the famous P-'07), with the blade of a P-'88 or P-'03. This exceedingly rare specimen is devoid of markings, so at present its origin is unknown, but it could possibly be a prototype for either the Vickers-Pedersen, or the P-'14 rifle, as it would fit both. Further research is warranted. Is there another example in a collection somewhere that might help shed some light on the history of this very interesting bayonet?

(Click PIC to Enlarge)Photo courtesy of Martin Cook

Although both the U.S. trials models and the first Vickers PB models took the same shape non-reversible clip as mentioned earlier, the shape of the magazine cover was changed. This slight difference in shape, primarily at the rear of the magazine cover, is easily missed unless photos of the two models are compared side by side. When the design was modified in the PA models to accommodate the major improvements of reversible clip and partially-filled clip ejection, the shape of the magazine cover remained the same.

A tighter right side view of the PB and PA model rifles reveals only two visible external differences.

(Click PIC to Enlarge)

Deputy O'Neill's keen investigative eye first spotted that the lower band retaining spring on the PB model is on the left side of the fore-end, but on the PA model, it is on the right side. The reason for changing sides from left to right, may be as simple as conforming to the customary placement of band retaining springs on the right side of most rifles of the day, but who really knows? Why it was ever changed to the left side on the PB models, when it was already on the right side of the earlier U.S. models, is a question that probably only John Pedersen himself knew the answer to, but, it seems further thought led to the band's being switched back again to the right side for the PA models.

(Click PIC to Enlarge)

After this discovery, my old eyes redeemed themselves a bit when I noticed the second, visible, external difference between the two model rifles. The stock bolt is lower and closer to the magazine on the PA rifle, as well as having a different type of nut on the right side, than the PB model. Again, this is different than the U.S. trials models that had two stock bolts, one at either end of the magazine, much like some models of the 1903 Springfield. Does this repositioning of the stock bolt have anything to do with the internal changes made to give the PA models the capability of ejecting a partially filled clip? Possibly, but I am not brave enough to disassemble both models for a comparison check.

(Click PIC to Enlarge)

The profusion of wear marks on the action of Pedersen Autoloader PB, serial # 5, leads Mr. Magee to believe it was probably a function test rifle. Although it is obvious this rifle has been fired often, it still functions perfectly with Mr. Magee's reloads. Having had the foresight to buy a considerable amount of the non-lubricated, Frankford Arsenal, .276 Pedersen ammunition when it was available, as well as being clever enough to duplicate John Pedersen's technique of dissolving ceresin wax in carbon tetrachloride to provide a dry lubricant for the cartridges, Mr. Magee is probably one of the only collectors in the world that regularly enjoys firing both a Pedersen PB rifle and a Pedersen PA carbine. Come to think of it, with the rarity of both of those models, I would think it a safe bet to say he is the only person that does such a thing. No "common" old PA rifle for him!

(Click PIC to Enlarge)

In the process of sorting out whose ammunition went into which clip after the photo shoot, a new, (to me anyway), fact was discovered. In 1929, Frankford Arsenal wasn't only making .276 Pedersen ammunition packed in boxes stamped,"LUBED", for the Pedersen, as well as without that marking for the unlubricated ammunition for the other contenders in the U.S. trials, but they were also producing .276 Pedersen ammunition with both small and large primers. Of course, Mr. Magee already knew this and informed me that the small primer ammunition was produced first, but it was then recognized that large primers would be better, so a production change was made.

The wear marks, scratches and dings on top of the action components are indicative of the function of the Pedersen mechanism. Viewed from the top, according to the Vickers Handbook, the long, flat piece in front of the rear sight, with the operating, or charging, but, more properly, slide handle, is known as the Slide, (oddly enough). The shorter, flat section, in front of the Slide is the Conrod, while the shortest flat section, directly in front of the receiver ring, is the Bolt.

For photos of the receiver open, refer to Part One of this article, but the pattern of marks on top of the receiver of the much-fired PB model illustrates what occurs externally. When the rifle is fired the slide kicks up at a 90-degree angle to be stopped by the two bosses on the receiver in front of the rear sight. The conrod, linked to the slide in a similar toggle-like arrangement to a Luger, kicks up in front of the slide, at an angle, while withdrawing the bolt with it. The bolt, the face of which is reminiscent of a Garand, withdraws the fired case and ejects it directly into the sloped surface of the conrod, from which it bounces off of. The worn blueing on these parts in the photos testifies to this sequence of events.

(Click PIC to Enlarge)

The left photo above, also reveals a third external difference between the PB and PA models that wasn't noticed until the descriptions were being written for the photo album that accompanies this article. In the middle of the thin strip of fore-end visible just above the action, a careful examination shows a notch, or groove, in the woodwork. Perhaps related to magazine function, the purpose of this shallow channel is unknown without disassembly, but it isn't present on the PA models.

The Selfloader PA rifle, serial number 185, being the subject of Part One, is covered there, but the Photo Album of that section is a good reference of more in-depth photographs of the Pedersen mechanism and exterior details common to all three models.

The Selfloader PA carbine, serial number 243, presents a sleek, tidy, decidedly elegant aspect, more usually found on a commercial sporting rifle. It is actually almost too pretty to be a military arm, but is also reminiscent of the lines of the smaller U.S. M1 Carbine that followed it years later.

(Click PIC to Enlarge)

This PA carbine, being serial number 243, provides us with another interesting bit of information. Recalling Part One of this article, it was learned that the ad the San Francisco Gun Exchange placed in the American Rifleman magazine in the late fifties, when they were first imported, stated that they had rifle serial numbers 17 to 208, as well as carbine serial numbers 240 to 262. This PA carbine, being serial number 243, purchased in 1966, from Martin B. Retting out of the lot bought from the Vickers museum, proves that the San Francisco Gun Exchange's serial number range was not all inclusive, as previously thought. It now appears that the Exchange did not have all the serial numbered rifles and carbines between the serial number ranges they listed in their advertisement, as they most certainly did not have this carbine.

(Click PIC to Enlarge)

Very little of the rifle was changed to create a carbine version, so from butt plate to rear barrel band, the PA rifle and carbine are identical. As complicated a machining proposition as this design is to manufacture, it was wise of Pedersen to keep the differences to a minimum when he fulfilled the original requirements for a cavalry carbine in the U.S. semi-auto trials. As the British War Department had already resolved the carbine or rifle question when they adopted the intermediate length Short, Magazine Lee-Enfield, it is a bit surprising a Pedersen carbine was being considered at all.

(Click PIC to Enlarge)

This economy of manufacturing differences between the rifle and carbine models was even carried through to the way both models are marked. No doubt, if these arms had been adopted by the military, the fact that one was a rifle and the other a carbine would have surely been noted on the receiver. As it was, both models were simply, "PEDERSEN SELFLOADER PA". Imagine the problems that would have created for stores personnel if not changed.

(Click PIC to Enlarge)

The carbine was created by reducing the barrel length from 24 inches to 22 inches and trimming the fore-end back to just in front of the rear barrel band. With no front handguard and the top of the rifle barrel exposed behind the front sight to the front of the rear band, there was nothing to change in this area to create the carbine, other than shortening the barrel, then bobbing the fore-end below it and installing the retaining spring behind the barrel band.

(Click PIC to Enlarge)

The final product is, admittedly, very pleasing to the eye, but I have to wonder, why bother? The carbine is only 2 inches shorter than the rifle and only a half a pound lighter, not enough I would think, to contribute much of an improvement in handling, or weight reduction, to justify a separate model. With the very small number of each of the three, different, Pedersen carbine models made, as well as the lack of a specific carbine model stamping, I suspect those in charge knew that the carbine was already a dead end.

That doesn't prevent the carbine from being fun to shoot though. As can be seen by the gentle wear marks on the top of the receiver, Mr. Magee's carbine is still enjoying its purpose in life and shot occasionally. My concerns about that breech block mechanism were validated when Mr. Magee mentioned that you don't actually notice it flying up in front of your eye when firing it... you just can't wear a cap! That could have proven to be quite problematic for a soldier in combat, if every time he fired his rifle, his helmet was knocked off his head by the cycling of the bolt!

(Click PIC to Enlarge)

These three different Pedersen models aptly bear witness to what an incredible feat of engineering Pedersen's design actually was, while also creating one of the most aesthetically pleasing military semi-automatic rifles ever made. By virtue of their utilitarian nature and purpose, not many military arms can be considered works of art, but a good argument can be made that Pedersen's rifles and carbines fit that bill.

Still operating perfectly today, despite having unknown thousands of rounds fired through it during its probable use as a function test rifle, Mr. Magee's Autoloader PB rifle shows just how reliable a mechanism it is under range conditions. Unfortunately, genius that he was, I feel John Pedersen's fatal flaw was his apparent lack of appreciation for what a soldier faces in combat.

Although a dry lube process was devised, the requirement of lubricated ammunition obviously has serious drawbacks in a military application. The action appears sealed from the intrusion of foreign matter when in its normal closed position, but when firing, for that split second when the breech is open, there is so much metal flying around, to such a height, that I think it would be subject to the ingress of debris under battlefield conditions. Doubtful that it would take too much more than a few grains of sand on those carefully machined camming surfaces to put the hesitation blow-back mechanism out of action, thus even simple cleaning of the rifle in the field could prove difficult. The fact that the bolt doesn't lock when in battery could, under the right circumstances, prove disastrous.

If these possible drawbacks proved without merit, one characteristic of this action would undoubtedly have doomed the rifle's chance of adoption by the military, so much so in fact, that I am surprised it got as far as it did in trials before it was rejected. It just isn't practical, nor tactically sound, to issue a rifle that smacks the helmet of the man firing it every time he pulls the trigger. The only way to avoid this problem is to take the helmet off, or push it far back on the head, every single time, prior to pulling the trigger. No infantryman is going to put up with that in combat, nor should he have to. This flaw in the design relegates this amazing piece of work to the, "Well it sounded like a good idea at the time!", category of arms development.

(Click PIC to Enlarge)

It was an extraordinary privilege to be allowed to share in Mr. Magee's knowledge of, and experience with, these elegant, but extremely rare examples of the gun maker's art. His generosity in sharing with the collecting world the previously almost unknown Autoloader PB rifle, as well as the extremely scarce Selfloader PA carbine, by allowing me to photograph both, is deeply appreciated. As collectors, we all owe him a debt of gratitude for this new information and I would like to express my personal, heartfelt thanks for an unforgettable experience. Thank you sir!

Collector's Comments and Feedback:

1. The secret to creating and maintaining quality research data in the Milsurps Knowledge Library is you! This is your site and these MKL entries on various old milsurps are yours to add to, or change. The volunteers on the Advisory Panel (click here) can only do so much to vet and validate the information posted here, so please contribute as much as possible to help us present the most accurate and reliable data we can gather on these old milsurps. If you own a particular specimen of any MKL entry, then please send us pics of it, even though they may be duplicate views of pieces you already see here. In that way, we can build up multiple sets of pics for several milsurps of the same model, which will help in indentifying markings and authenticity. For example, in the case of this MKL entry of the Vickers-Pedersen, if you own one, we'd like to receive more pics of the stampings and serial number views as shown in the "Observations" section and various "Collector's Comments and Feedback" notes of Part 1 of this series of articles. ALL pics and information received will be treated with the utmost confidentiality and respect of your privacy. Thanks to everyone who has contributed so far, which is helping to make the Milsurps Collectors Forums a prominent site for serious collectors of all genres of old milsurp collectibles. ....... (Feedback by "Badger")

Enjoy all the information on the Vickers Pedersens. Just to fill in a few more serial numbers I own rifles numbered 59 and 172 and carbine number 254. All are in excellent condition. Would like to purchase clips and ammo if anyone has any for sale. On an auction note RIA just sold two Japanese prototypes for $27,500.00 each plus 15% buyers premium. randycat