I start this thread because Teejay wants to debate on the once saves always saved (osas) doctrine. Anyone can post as well. If you believe in osas I must warn you that what I will be posting may shake your faith in that belief.

A little history: I started out as a osas believer. Went to a baptist church. But what made me question this doctrine was a sermon I heard on the subject from my pastor. He basically made salvation sound like a ticket to sin by saying that regardless of what we do we are always forgiven so we can sin all we want to and some people actually cheered. I'm like What? And at that time I did not know much about theology but I knew that was wrong.

I kept going to that church but eventually left and backslid for a few years. But that one thing always stuck with me. But I still believed in osas because I thought that was the only way salvation worked. But I started debating on another Christian forum that not only had intense creation debates but also intense osas debates (whether it was right or wrong). Both sides had good arguments and at some point I become neutral not really knowing what to believe.

But because this was a salvation issue I wanted to know the truth and I was not getting one from the debates and both sides having good arguments only made me confused, And I also wanted to know so I could be on the right side of the debate and hopefully lead others to the truth on this. about the same time creation in my mind was having the same issues (what to believe about it). So after so much frustration I decided to pray and ask for wisdom on these matters. And that's when the testing started.

God was testing me to see if I would compromise the word or stick to my guns or believing it literally. And boy was I tested at every turn like never before, In the middle of it I realized what was going on so that gave some comfort knowing it was for my good even though it seemed never ending. At some point God determined I was ready for some wisdom so soon my eyes started to be opened a little on both subjects. This took almost 3 years to get to that point. But I never gave up. So little by little I was being given bits of wisdom which is good because if I was given it all at once it probably would have confused me more.

Soon I could debate the subject of osas pretty good. People who believed osas would gang up on me and I would end up debating them up to ten at a time. But I was kinda already used to that because that was also about the time I used to go to atheist forums to debate creation and it's a normal thing to get gang up on there. If a creationist could not handle it they would crash and burn and many did.

But my diligence made me a force to be reckoned with concerning the osas subject and many wanted to debate me, argue with me in PMs and e-mails. And then suddenly I was flooded with a bunch of wisdom on the subject and was able to debate it to a point that one of three things would happen.

1) They would get mad.2) They would call me names or even cuss at me for proving their doctrine wrong.3) Or they would convert.

Usually 1 and 2 were the main responses. But because I was keeping notes on all the hundreds of debates I had concerning the osas subject I soon ended up with a big archive of information concerning the subject. Because I debated it so much I have most of it memorized and usually don;t have to refer to it.

So let's start:

What is the most powerful verses for osas belief?

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.30 I and my Father are one.

Hands are not a representation of salvation. Being in the body of Christ is. Hands are about judgment. Right hand left hand judgment.Matthew 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

And the reason there is a hand exchange is because there are 2 judgments. So either Father God will judge us or Christ. And the pluck out of the hand comment is about that no one will get by without being judged.

Misconception about judgment: Matthew 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

In order for osas to work the goats in this judgment have to be unsaved sinners. Problem is no where in God's word does it ever refer to goats and the unsaved. Look it up. So who are the goats? the sinners who get saved but never did what they were supposed to and lost their salvation. If an osas believer can find a verse referring to the unsaved as goats you can list it.

Misconception about the unforgiven sin:In order for the osas to work only the unsaved can commit the unforgiven sin. But there are 2 problems with this:

1) The unsaved are already damned for hell, do they become doubled damned?2) Having a sin that can block salvation to the unsaved makes sin stronger than the shed blood of Christ. And gives Satan a tool to block salvation before it is given. And makes what these people do here: http://www.blasphemychallenge.com/ more powerful than what Christ did on the cross.

So what does all that mean? Only the saved can commit the sin and it mean something.

Is there a verse that is an actual example of a believer losing salvation to the point of needing to be converted back? Yes there is:

James 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Brethren = believer.If any of you = believer.Err from the truth = straying from God.and one convert him = conversion means loss of salvation.Coverteth the sinner from the error of his way and shall save a soul from death = losing salvation, having his sins hidden upon conversion and saving a soul from death is keeping them out of Hell and the lake of fire.And shall hide a multitude of sins = bring them back into mercy, grace and forgiveness.

What happens when you change prophecy in God's word:

rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

To be in the book of life one has to be saved, right? So to take them out of the book of life means they were in it and save so when taken out they lost their salvation.

Side note: Just so there is no misunderstanding I do believe there is a level of faith someone can reach that would make there salvation unshakable therefore it would be osas to them But until that level is reached there always that danger that exist. this is also why the Bible says to guard your heart and to build a solid foundation of faith.

Also in no-osas you don't lose your salvation every time you sin. This is because maintaining salvation is the determined by the condition of your heart towards God. So it's when Christ has become of no effect to you that this happens.

gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

We are saved by grace:

eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

So when we fall from it we also lose our salvation. And on and on I could go.

For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.--2 Corinthians 11:4

but also what Ikester taught me, that once one is saved he/she cannot be possessed by wicked spirits: or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received,

For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.--2 Corinthians 11:4

but also what Ikester taught me, that once one is saved he/she cannot be possessed by wicked spirits: or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received,

That a "saved" person cannot be possessed. The reasoning behind that is because Christ dwells within your heart. Our hearts are not a duplex or multiplex where Christ is going to share it with other spirits, So if a person is saved then later get another spirit Christ is no longer there as to the reason that can happen.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

What you missed like must osas do is the "conditions" that exists in that verse,

1) You have to "hearth" Christ's word.2) You have to believeth on Christ as well.

Are these conditions eternal? Nope they are choices we make and choices we can change. So it's not our belief or our ability to hear Christ that becomes eternal but our life "if" we do these things.

1 John 2:19 They left us, but they were not part of us, for if they had been part of us, they would have stayed with us. Their leaving made it clear that none of them was really part of us.

In the realm of eternity things work very different. If you are a part of something you have always been a part of it because only eternal things exist in the spiritual realm. If you leave something and are no longer a part of something then you have alway been that way in eternity, Example: When we go to Heaven to live forever are we not eternal? So when we get there have we not always been there because we are eternal. Now that might confuse you until I point this part out. How do you measure a beginning or end in eternity? It has not beginning or end Understand?

So when we are saved we have a "connection" to the eternal realm. All that we do here effects eternal Heaven. So what we do also becomes eternal in that realm. So when we are apart of something in heaven you are eternally part of it because there is no beginning or end. If you leave it here there it's been that way for eternity. In other words our decisions here are eternal decisions there. So even though we can change our minds here because God's created laws here allow this. In eternity whatever we decide is eternal there. In this way our final decision before we die will be our eternal decision. Because once we pass from being temporal to spiritual the laws of what we left where we had choice no longer exist. As to the reason we cannot change our minds after a temporal death. So while here we have a choice, But once there what choice we died with becomes eternal.

For as long as we are here where beginnings and endings exist and we can make the choice, nothing eternal about those choices can exist until we make our last choice. For some that choice will be made only once. Others may struggle and that choice maybe made more than once before committing to it becomes a part of it. While others decide it's not what they want so they leave it. And because that choice is eternal in Heaven it is as if they never were saved because there is no way to measure beginnings or ends of things in Heaven where all things including our current conditions are eternal.

Another way to put it just as an example: if a person decides for Christ then dies where do they go for all eternity? If a person who is saved decides they don;t want Christ anymore and dies where do they go for all eternity? So our decisions here are eternal conditions or our souls there. So our choices here either make us always with them or always not. There is no in between where eternity is concerned,

That is also how our judgment is going to be absolute and fair. We had all the choices we wanted to do the right thing here so there will be no excuse for the wrong choice when we get there, To have a lifetime of freewill choices what excuse could there be for making the wrong one?

When I attended Church I was very much taught the "no osas" version, and that is what seems correct and fair to me.

However despite seeming fair and correct that doesn't seem to be sufficient reasoning since I recall a parable about a man who got workers at 9am and then got more workers at 10, then 11 all the way to 3 (I think) at the end of the day 5pm he paid all workers the same amount each. The men who worked since 9am were annoyed and claimed that since the other workers worked less time they should get less, or that themselves should get more money.

However the owner said back to them that this was that the terms of their payment was agreed to before, and that he could do as he wished with his money. When I first heard this I sided with the workers who worked the most, however in the end I realised that the owner was right and that he can do whatever he wants with his money, so if he wants to pay workers a full days wage for 2 hours of work, then so be it

Like the owner God can do what He wishes with his grace and forgiveness, this can go either way but should strike at any arguments claiming that X is more logical or fair.

However this parable doesn't completely fit with this situation, but it does represent the fact that God's choice overcomes our own sense of what is "fair".

When I attended Church I was very much taught the "no osas" version, and that is what seems correct and fair to me.

However despite seeming fair and correct that doesn't seem to be sufficient reasoning since I recall a parable about a man who got workers at 9am and then got more workers at 10, then 11 all the way to 3 (I think) at the end of the day 5pm he paid all workers the same amount each. The men who worked since 9am were annoyed and claimed that since the other workers worked less time they should get less, or that themselves should get more money.

However the owner said back to them that this was that the terms of their payment was agreed to before, and that he could do as he wished with his money.

Like the owner God can do what He wishes with his grace and forgiveness, this can go either way but should strike at any arguments claiming that X is more logical or fair.

What that was an example of is people who get saved early or late in life, it does not matter you receive the same reward in heaven. Do you think that's fair or not?

If that is God wants to do with his forgiveness then I have no say in the matter, in the same sense that I have no say in how anyone should spend their money or how to live their life

The thing is if they really did not know until late in life I think that's fair. But if they knew early and waited for selfish reasons that mocks what Christ did on the cross and I believe they will have to answer for that. This is because a person is responsible as soon as they are aware of God as to the decision they make concerning God. Salvation cannot be used to condone sin it is used to forgive it.

Now if they waited because they were not sure and wanted to be sure that's fair. Even God says: Test me.

John 10:27 Taken out of context. When the verse is put back in the rest of the chapter where it belongs, it is easy to see the comparison Jesus is making between the hireling who flees and allows the wolf to scatter the sheep because the hireling doesn't own them, and the Good Shepherd who gives His life, opens the door, calls them, leads them, knows them, etc.
Context is about ownership, not judgment.
By the way...hands are not always about judgment, in fact there are many verses about hands of creation and blessing..

The thing is if they really did not know until late in life I think that's fair. But if they knew early and waited for selfish reasons that mocks what Christ did on the cross and I believe they will have to answer for that. This is because a person is responsible as soon as they are aware of God as to the decision they make concerning God. Salvation cannot be used to condone sin it is used to forgive it.

Now if they waited because they were not sure and wanted to be sure that's fair. Even God says: Test me.

But doesn't Jesus say "Do not put your God to the test"..?

I actually agree with you on the osas issue, otherwise people who have turned from God, (like me ), can continue to do so with no consequences... Even so ALL the consequences was taken on by Jesus so that is something to consider.

However as I said it is what seems fair and correct to me, (however the parable I mentioned takes strength away from these claims of fairness, so basically I have an unjustified opinion)

John 10:27 Taken out of context. When the verse is put back in the rest of the chapter where it belongs, it is easy to see the comparison Jesus is making between the hireling who flees and allows the wolf to scatter the sheep because the hireling doesn't own them, and the Good Shepherd who gives His life, opens the door, calls them, leads them, knows them, etc.Context is about ownership, not judgment.By the way...hands are not always about judgment, in fact there are many verses about hands of creation and blessing..

I actually agree with you on the osas issue, otherwise people who have turned from God, (like me ), can continue to do so with no consequences... Even so ALL the consequences was taken on by Jesus so that is something to consider.

However as I said it is what seems fair and correct to me, (however the parable I mentioned takes strength away from these claims of fairness, so basically I have an unjustified opinion)

The reasoning with the osas believers is that if you left God you were never truly saved. there is no verse I can find that says you can never leave your salvation. And if that were even true all the warnings given to us about how things could destroy our faith etc... Would be worthless. To what point does one warn someone else when nothing is really going to happen? Unless the warnings were a deception.

Also the type of testing Jesus is speaking of is where someone tries to provoke God to anger. Not testing Him to see if He's real. Totally 2 different things.

Titus 3:4-6 but But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

Saved us. Yes. Saved us from what?

3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another.

So if we are foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving lusts and pleasures, hateful and envious then we are not saved.

The reasoning with the osas believers is that if you left God you were never truly saved. there is no verse I can find that says you can never leave your salvation. And if that were even true all the warnings given to use about how things could destroy our faith etc... Would be worthless. To what point does one warn someone else when nothing is really going to happen? Unless the warnings were a deception.

Also the type of testing Jesus is speaking of is where someone tries to provoke God to anger. Not testing Him to see if he's real. Totally 2 different things.

Yeah thats how I see it, people can lose faith just like anything else.

I've always been taught that the testing thing was for "frivolous" tests... Like if I were to ask God to give me $1,000,000,000 into my hands, and when it doesn't happen then the test is failed... Such a thing really is silly, since "God helps those who helps themselves". Meaning if I wanted that amount of money I would need to show initiative and try my hardest and if I be deserving God would make events behind the scenes to align with my goal.

Sadly people do these tests, and they somehow think that it invalidates God

Titus 3:4-6 but But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

Saved us. Yes. Saved us from what?

3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another.

So if we are foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving lusts and pleasures, hateful and envious then we are not saved.

But if we were saved then decided to do these things we are in danger of losing salvation. You see the osas believer believes there is no way no how that salvation could ever be in danger regardless of what we do. If so then all the warnings in the Bible to the saved is unwarranted and a waste of word. It's like warning someone about trains on a track that is now closed. It's a waste of time and if known can be considered a deception as well.

If so then all the warnings in the Bible to the saved is unwarranted and a waste of word.

It does seem this way. The most common argument that the OSAS preacher will give is that not all associated with the Christian congregation at that time were saved, so the warnings were for those professed Christians and also for professed Christians today. What do you say to that reasoning?

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day” (John 6:44). If we take this verse woodenly literal, we have to reason that the people who do not come to Jesus are doomed to eternity in Hell apart from their Creator God—simply because God the Father elected not to draw them to His Son.

The phrase “raise him up” can’t mean judgment to condemnation, for then Jesus would be damning people who come to Him and Jesus said that he would cast no one out that came to him (John 6:37). And Jesus did say, “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL peoples to Myself” (John 12:32). Calvinism becomes unavoidable in that for some unknown reason, God the Father draws some but does not draw others. So if we compare John 6:44 with John 6:37 & 12:32, we have a violation of the law of non-contradiction. For it can’t possibly be true that God draws only some people and true that He draws all people at the same time and in the same way. The laws of logic are immaterial, universal, and absolute and as such can only come from the mind of an immaterial rational Being. Jesus said that “I am the truth…” If Jesus were illogical, He would be untruthful and would deny Himself. He can’t be illogical and remain logical and truthful. This is impossible even for God. In light of all this, can we dig a little deeper.

First, let’s talk about being “raised up.” In John 6:39, 44, Jesus says that He will “raise him up at the last day.” In the Bible, there are two resurrections. The first resurrection is at the end of the Tribulation and it is for those who have not “worshipped the beast” (Rev. 20:4-5). And they will reign with Jesus for a thousand years (or the Millennium Kingdom). Revelation 20:4-5 specifically states that this is the “first” resurrection. One may ask: “Isn’t Jesus the first resurrection?” But Jesus makes it clear that He is not the first or second, but He states that He is “THE” Resurrection (John 11:25). (I am purposely leaving out the Rapture, because when Jesus spoke in John, He never mentioned the Rapture. The Rapture is for the Body of Christ and we are members of His Body. During His ministry, the establishment of the Body of Christ was a secret, was future and was contingent on Israel rejecting or accepting their risen Messiah. Now we may not want to get into the subject of the Rapture in this thread.) That’s okay but I just wanted to be clear.

The second and final resurrection occurs at the Great White Throne Judgment, when ALL the dead (minus members of the Body of Christ who are raptured physically and whose salvation is assured). See Revelation 20:11-15. Of course, Jesus also spoke of this same resurrection in John 5:28-29. And we must understand that this is a resurrection of physical bodies and only those in Hell will be judged to condemnation. Moses is with the Lord but his body is “of the dust of the earth” somewhere in the Middle East.

So, what could Jesus have meant when He told the Jews that they could not come to Him unless the Father draws them? Jesus warned that “If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true” (John 5:31). In the OT, a matter was established “by the mouth of two or three witnesses.” And of course Jesus provided more than two witness besides Himself—His Father in John 8:18, His miracles, and Moses and the prophets and the whole of the OT. Jesus told the Pharisees that if they had KNOWN the Father, they would have KNOWN Jesus (John 8:19). By not knowing the Father, it was impossible for them to know Jesus. Jesus’ accusing the Jews of not knowing their God was an accusation that did not sit well. I have often thought that if I were alive during Jesus’ ministry, I would have liked to have been a Velcro salesman. When Jesus opened His mouth, the Pharisees tore their robes. A Velcro salesman would have made a fortune with Jewish wives. So, instead of interpreting this Calvinisticly and illogically should we interpret John 6:44 through not only other Scripture, but through the true nature of God—that He desires that all men be saved.

When did I reject Him?

I admit that you did not reject Him. But could you have rejected Him?

Romans1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

The reprobates cannot be drawn because it's a curse that not only makes them dumb to truth and lies but also right from wrong.

Ikester, notice that “God gave them over to a reprobate mind” because “they did not like to retain God in their knowledge and not because He did not elect to draw them to Him. God wanted them to come to Him. Right? We have a church in my town that’s right in line with Titus 1:16. It’s filled with unrepentant h*m*sexuals who have told God that they will be h*mos*xual Christians. They have accepted God on their terms and not on His terms.

And when you looked up all these verses you came up with here, did you also look for any contradicting verses as well? I doubt that you did. Because there are verses that contradict what you use those verses for. But I also find that osas believers only see one side of the word while ignoring everything else.

No, because I simply used these verses as an example of how the word “all” sometimes does not mean ALL. I am a OSAS proponent and I have looked at both sides of the issue. But believe it or not, I am not the Pope. I am not infallible. When I am convinced that something is true, I embrace it.

That's a loaded question because as MamaElephant will tell you I'm somewhat of an expert on this. So if you want to open a huge can of worms and have your faith in osas challenged you might want to start another thread because I can tell you this subject will derail this one. But I also must warn you I have a bunch of stuff archived on this subject that is 20 times more information then you could ever post in support of osas (once saved always saved). No ones been able to prove me wrong but you can try,

Now why did I say all that? Because the subject deals with salvation right? And I once believed as you do. And everywhere I saw this subject being debated both sides had good arguments. So when I tried to prove either side by myself I would end up being pulled in both directions. So out of total frustration in wanting to know what they truth was on the issue I prayed for guidance and was very sincere of what I wanted so I really was praying from the heart more than anything else. And after 5 long years of tests and truths being revealed I made a decision. And was given more information on the subject then I could have ever done on my own. MamaElephant will tell you it's quite convincing.

I don’t think I gave you a “loaded question.” I understand a loaded question to be the logical fallacy of the complex question. Examples: Have you stopped beating your wife? Why are creationists against science? And whether you want to get into this is your call. If what you believe is true, it would not take a TON of Scripture quotes to convince me..

Okay if you walk up to someone you don;t even know can you tell me if they are saved?If you observe them for a day can you absolutely tell me they are saved?If they tell you they are saved does that mean they are saved?So who determines this for sure, you or God?

Sometimes I can guess that two men coming to my door are Mormons simply by the way they are dressed. And after I find out for sure that they are Mormons, I KNOW they are not saved. But in answer to your first question: No. I can’t tell if someone is saved by looking them. Jesus can, but while God can judge the heart, we can only judge the flesh. If I observed them for a gazillion years, I could not determine if they are saved. If they tell me they are saved, I still do not know if they are saved. I must ask them WHY? If they answer, “Well I’m pretty good and I’ve never killed anyone,” then I know they are not saved. If they answer, “I am saved because I’ve repented of my sinful life and have asked God to forgive me and I have confessed with my mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe in my heart that God has raised Him from the dead. I know I am saved because God has promised me this in His word” (Rom. 10:9-10). Now I will make an assertion here that may upset you: The Christian gospel of grace as preached by Paul is the only religion that assures salvation by faith plus nothing. And if you don’t know you are saved, you are not saved.

Using scripture can you say for sure that God would not give them the boy or girl that they want? If you cannot it becomes a matter of opinion more than fact. To counsel and say for sure that you know and cannot back that up with the word is making your own doctrine. We may not think God will do something because it does not seem reasonable but then again being reasonable as we would determine it is not always God's way. Because if a couple needs a boy to be able to do a man's work on the farm etc... So that the family can survive why would not God give that to them? God says He will meet our needs, right?

God said that He knew David “when his bones were yet unformed.” Before we cracked the DNA code, many Christians interpreted this to mean that God knew us before we were alive. While God knows everything knowable that He wants to know, He can’t know you if you don’t exist. That’s not possible even for God. God rested on the seventh day from all his creation. While I can’t build a fence that won’t fall down next year, God’s creation functions quite well without His intervention. God loves all babies at CONCEPTION whether they are girls or boys. Can God change a boy to a girl? I would say yes. Would God change a boy to a girl just to satisfy the capricious whim of parents? I say no. God would be more pleased if we got on our knees and thanked Him for a healthy boy or girl. God is not in the miracle business today. Whenever He did miracles in the Bible, they had a specific purpose—to show Pharaoh and convince Israel (for the “Jews require a sign”), to His Twelve as seal of approval, and to Paul (in the initial stages of his ministry) to show the Twelve that Israel had been cut off and the mantle had been passed to Paul. If you do a careful study of all the miracles in the Bible and the peoples’ response to the miracles, the miracles produced negative results most of the time. In the cities where Jesus did most of His miracles, they totally rejected Him. Why? Because most people have a hardened heart towards God. A miracle shoves the truth of God in his face and proves Him wrong. People do not like to be proved wrong.TeeJay