L21 is in this. M520=M269, M412=L51, M529=L21 and of course S116 is P312.

Quote

The phylogenetic relationships of numerous branches within the core Y-chromosome haplogroup R-M207 support a West Asian origin of haplogroup R1b, its initial differentiation there followed by a rapid spread of one of its sub-clades carrying the M269 mutation to Europe. Here, we present phylogeographically resolved data for 2043 M269-derived Y-chromosomes from 118 West Asian and European populations assessed for the M412 SNP that largely separates the majority of Central and West European R1b lineages from those observed in Eastern Europe, the Circum-Uralic region, the Near East, the Caucasus and Pakistan. Within the M412 dichotomy, the major S116 sub-clade shows a frequency peak in the upper Danube basin and Paris area with declining frequency toward Italy, Iberia, Southern France and British Isles. Although this frequency pattern closely approximates the spread of the Linearbandkeramik (LBK), Neolithic culture, an advent leading to a number of pre-historic cultural developments during the past ≤10 thousand years, more complex pre-Neolithic scenarios remain possible for the L23(xM412) components in Southeast Europe and elsewhere.

"Table S2: Coalescent times and median haplotypes for 11 R1b haplogroups" has various Coalescence ages. I sorted the countries by age for P312 (all), U152, L21 (incl M222) and U106. This is the bulk of P310+ peoples. I interpret age Coalescent time as thousands of years before present.

This doesn't seem to matches up with Behar's 2008 study where R1 is 18,500 ybp, but at least we are getting some indication of relative age by country at the R-M269 subclades level. Given the methodology used, I wonder how old they'd say the various I, J and E subclades in Europe are ????

Still puzzled about why the department of Vaucluse in SE France gets the focus while Spain and Portugal don't seem to exist in this study.

This study would lead one to believe that U152 is the biggest P312 subclade in Europe.

Some may jump to that conclusion, but it would be a mistake.

I think it would be reasonable to assume that the sampling WITHIN each included population is random (at least to a first order approximation) the choice of populations is clearly not representative. The sample size of each population is not controlled for (there are three times as many samples from Germany as France, for example, and Italy is included while Spain and Portugal are not).

So while the spatial distributions are pretty much correct, the overall frequency of one clade versus another cannot be compared using only the data from this study.

Hmmm . . . Well, we've been waiting for a study that included L21. We finally got it, I guess. The results are somewhat surprising, to say the least.

Am I understanding correctly that, of 2,193 R1b men tested for this study, only 129 were M529+ (L21+)? Of that total, 105 were xM222, right?

206 out of the 2,193 were U152+? This study would lead one to believe that U152 is the biggest P312 subclade in Europe.

Something is fishy with this.

The S2 table says there is a total of 129 M529 (L21+) guys but the detail only sums up to 116.... a miracle of math.

I don't think they tried to do any kind of a representative sample. I see no mention of Spain or Portugal. If so, they didn't include it in the supplements. (EDIT: They are in other tables and were considered.)

I'm still puzzled by their focus on the Vaucluse Department of SE France. Were they trying to show a tie to the advance of the Neolithic?

They used the Zhiv. rate. Divide the coalescent times by 3 to get a better approximation.

Some observations,M269* - highest frequencies in 3 Balkan populations and Germany. Variance only shown for Turkey and Romania, with Turkey being highest. Interestingly enough, the average variance for all M269 populations is higher than either Turkey or Romania, so which country is causing this?

L23* - highest variance and frequencies are around the Caucasus then Turkey with a tapering off as you move towards Europe starting from Romania. North or south of the Black Sea is still in question. I think it leans to the north with Romania at .26, Hungary at .17 and Greece at .15. Although, Italy is at .25, so maybe there is a maritime connection. Pakistan is actually highest, but only has a sample of 5.

L51 through P312/U106 look to have originated in Europe. P312* and L21* - highest variance in France as already mentioned on this forum. Poland and Turkey show some higher variance with P312, but with very small sample sizes.

Well, we've been waiting for a study that included L21. We finally got it, I guess. The results are somewhat surprising, to say the least.

Am I understanding correctly that, of 2,193 R1b men tested for this study, only 129 were M529+ (L21+)? Of that total, 105 were xM222, right?

206 out of the 2,193 were U152+?

This study would lead one to believe that U152 is the biggest P312 subclade in Europe.

Something is fishy with this.

L21 has only been proven to be strong in a band going from northern half of France to SW Germany which is an area that probably only contains a tiny fraction of the population of Europe. My feeling has been that it must have occurred within that band just described above only a modest period of time before it crossed into the isles. However, overall that is only a small fragment of Europe. Its little known from much of Italy, much of Iberia, northern Germany, Belgium, Holland, all of eastern Europe etc. To me L21 looks like it basically inhabited a few river systems - the Main, the Middle and Upper Rhine, the Mossele, the Seine and Loire (no idea in which direction) and that could pretty well have been the extent of the early exploration of Europe with much of the rest being later spreads by sea.

As for U152 the numbers it confirmed there is a lot in Germany, Italy, Switzerland and SE France. We already knew it was big in Alsace from the Santiago D. C. study. So its not really that new information. However we also know from the same study it is not the majority clade elsewhere in France. Noone has ever claimed that L21 is huge on the continent anywhere other than the north of France. In Germany L21 seems concentrated in the small part that is west of the Rhine/south of the Main (Rhinland Palatinate) and adjacent but it always seemed clear it was not large in terms of an all-German total. I think the study has managed to miss the main L21 band running through northern France towards the Rhine.

What is staggering me is that L21 and U152 combined only make up about 300 our of 2193? What on earth accounts for the remainder of the R1b?

lol I should have stuck to my guns. The report would seem to link L21 to the tail end of the long LBK journey and the period just after LBK (the French middle Neolithic) when post-LBK (but essentially LBK-derived) cultures spread to the channel fringes of France. The final stages of LBK spread from the Rhine areea via the Mosselle into the inland part of northern France which ran from the Paris basin to the inland eastern part of Brittany but everywhere it stopped short of the coasts for many centuries (left to the hunter-fishers). In the post-LBK phase (middle Neolithic) after a hiatus of at least half a millenium a secondary phase spread out from northern France into the isles. The parallel between L21 and the final phases of LBK as it spread into France from the Rhine and the post-LBK phases when it spread on to the isles has always struck me as uncanny. Even the river systems that L21 seems to be associated with seemed to me to fit the final stages of the LBK trek. In that scenario LBK might have occurred among S116* elements in the group of farmers heading NW just as they crossed from SW Germany into northern France. Hence the relatively restricted spread in Europe. Interestingly the article for the first time in print mentions one of the only ways of squaring the problem that S116 clades appear in both former LBK and Caridal areas. This is because in the middle Neolithic, LBK-descended peoples may have spread south in the guise of the Chassee culture into southern France, Iberia, Italy and adjacent areas. I had thought about this possibility and tried to find out more but there is not a lot in accessible form on the French middle Neolithic. Anyway, I am kind of happy with the article because I have always felt much more comfortable with an early farmers link to R1b1b2 despite the increasing evidence for Copper Age migration too.

I'm still puzzled by their focus on the Vaucluse Department of SE France. Were they trying to show a tie to the advance of the Neolithic?

Table S4 in the supplements is the one that I think people will want to focus on for frequency data. It has a much larger sample of SNP-tested (no STRs) results, including Spain, Portugal, and so on than table S2 has. It also provides the source of each sample. Only the smaller table S2 has diversity (age) data.

It looks like Vaucluse is new to this paper, and it appears that they were trying to get a good resolution picture of the Rhone and Danube river basins.

.... The final stages of LBK spread from the Rhine areea via the Mosselle into the inland part of northern France which ran from the Paris basin to the inland eastern part of Brittany but everywhere it stopped short of the coasts for many centuries (left to the hunter-fishers). In the post-LBK phase (middle Neolithic) after a hiatus of at least half a millenium a secondary phase spread out from northern France into the isles. The parallel between L21 and the final phases of LBK as it spread into France from the Rhine and the post-LBK phases when it spread on to the isles has always struck me as uncanny. Even the river systems that L21 seems to be associated with seemed to me to fit the final stages of the LBK trek. In that scenario LBK might have occurred among S116* elements in the group of farmers heading NW just as they crossed from SW Germany into northern France. Hence the relatively restricted spread in Europe. Interestingly the article for the first time in print mentions one of the only ways of squaring the problem that S116 clades appear in both former LBK and Caridal areas. This is because in the middle Neolithic, LBK-descended peoples may have spread south in the guise of the Chassee culture into southern France, Iberia, Italy and adjacent areas.....

Alan, I have to admit, that although I've read a lot about the LBK and Cardial Wares expansions, and also the Bronze Age; I know little about these middle Neolithic migrations. They don't seem to get the same attention from Cunliffe. Must be that they are not grand sweeps but hodge podge expansions and can only be understood a piece a time. Are there some names of cultural expansions that I should read up on?

Amazing study, huh? I prettied up the supplementary data, I think it's cleaner and easier to read than the original supplementary files. Amongst other things, I "translated" the obscure SNP names to their more widely used names, such as L21. I also adjusted the DYS461 results, because they were reported with one repeat less than is usually done in scientific studies and commercial databases. If anyone finds anything to correct, let me know.

.... The final stages of LBK spread from the Rhine areea via the Mosselle into the inland part of northern France which ran from the Paris basin to the inland eastern part of Brittany but everywhere it stopped short of the coasts for many centuries (left to the hunter-fishers). In the post-LBK phase (middle Neolithic) after a hiatus of at least half a millenium a secondary phase spread out from northern France into the isles. The parallel between L21 and the final phases of LBK as it spread into France from the Rhine and the post-LBK phases when it spread on to the isles has always struck me as uncanny. Even the river systems that L21 seems to be associated with seemed to me to fit the final stages of the LBK trek. In that scenario LBK might have occurred among S116* elements in the group of farmers heading NW just as they crossed from SW Germany into northern France. Hence the relatively restricted spread in Europe. Interestingly the article for the first time in print mentions one of the only ways of squaring the problem that S116 clades appear in both former LBK and Caridal areas. This is because in the middle Neolithic, LBK-descended peoples may have spread south in the guise of the Chassee culture into southern France, Iberia, Italy and adjacent areas.....

Alan, I have to admit, that although I've read a lot about the LBK and Cardial Wares expansions, and also the Bronze Age; I know little about these middle Neolithic migrations. They don't seem to get the same attention from Cunliffe. Must be that they are not grand sweeps but hodge podge expansions and can only be understood a piece a time. Are there some names of cultural expansions that I should read up on?

The big one is the one mentioned in the report the Chaseey culture. There is some other related culture I think in Spain or north Italy but I must check it. The middle Neolithic is important because if you look at the 2 great sweeps of the early Neolithic-the LBK and Cardial (see Cunliffe for the most up to date maps in popular publications - both are a little more extensive than shown on older maps) you will notice that even now a huge swath of Europe received neither and were unsettled by farmers in the early Neolithic-the isles, Scandinavia, the north German plain, much of central and north coastal France, most of Iberia etc. It was only in the succeeding middle Neolithic (which by the way is the early Neolithic in the isles) that these areas became in-filled (basically across the 5th millenium BC). The biggest ones I can think of were the TRB (Funnel Beaker) and Chasseen cultures and of course the early Neolithic of the isles which doesnt have a name (terms like Windmill Hill and Western Neolithic are defunct). The big question is what was the ancestor of these middle Neolithic cultures who filled in the unsettled gaps - LBK or Cardial (or something else like indigenous hunters turning to farming). My understanding was that the TRB was LBK derived and the most likely origin of the earliest isles Neolithic culture was also LBK derived groups along the English Channel. I had realised the potential importance of the Chaseen culture as it cut across both ex-LBK and ex-Cardial areas but I was not sure which one (or both) it was derived from and had tried in vain to find easily accessible analysis of it. What I had found seemed contradictory but this new DNA paper seems to suggest an LBK origin. Other middle Neolithic cultures in the France/west Germany area included Michelsburg and Rossen. Another may be Cerny. I really wish someone would post something on the middle Neolithic of western Europe and remember posting that on one of the DNA sites once or twice.

How did they sample and from where? I ask because the dominance of U152 in France in another recent study was restricted to the eastern fringe (Alsace) which has a similar history to south Germany, Switzerland, north Italy etc. In Alsace it seems to had very high levels as U152 outnumbered a group that must have included L21 and S116* combined. I would be very interested to know more about the origin of the French sample and any other stats for L21.

"Table S2: Coalescent times and median haplotypes for 11 R1b haplogroups" has various Coalescence ages. I sorted the countries by age for P312 (all), U152, L21 (incl M222) and U106. This is the bulk of P310+ peoples. I interpret age Coalescent time as thousands of years before present.

This doesn't seem to matches up with Behar's 2008 study where R1 is 18,500 ybp, but at least we are getting some indication of relative age by country at the R-M269 subclades level. Given the methodology used, I wonder how old they'd say the various I, J and E subclades in Europe are ????

Still puzzled about why the department of Vaucluse in SE France gets the focus while Spain and Portugal don't seem to exist in this study.

so if there were 40 S116 in France and 7 (17.5%) were L21 and 14 (35%) U152, then what were the remaining nearly 50% of French S116? I would never have guess half of French S116 would be S116* or the Iberian clades.

Got to say too that these stats are absolutely light years away from the rates the L21 project resting of R1b1b2 found although that may partly be due to many being from the north-western quarter of France.

so if there were 40 S116 in France and 7 (17.5%) were L21 and 14 (35%) U152, then what were the remaining nearly 50% of French S116? I would never have guess half of French S116 would be S116* or the Iberian clades.

Got to say too that these stats are absolutely light years away from the rates the L21 project resting of R1b1b2 found although that may partly be due to many being from the north-western quarter of France.

I don't know if they tested for SRY2627 or M153 but we know there are some SY2627 folks in France. Also, keep in mind that I don't think the study is claiming to be a scientific sampled "frequency" study. It's more like spot checking for age calculations.

I went to Table S4 of the study and pulled up their frequencies for M529xM222 which should be L21*. Even though some of these percentages are low, L21* is in places randy monks and wild geese didn't make it to.

Can't wait to see what Maliclavelli is going to find about ht35, or what Stevo has to say about L21.

Notice that the French results are actually very small. There's 300+ samples from the most southeasterly quarter of the country, ok, fine, but the rest is rather insignificant. It's a total of just 93 samples, including just 53 R1b1b2, and 38 of the 93 are from the south, again, leaving just 55 central & north France samples, with barely 30 R1b1b2 samples.

But at least we can now see clearly that in south France L21 makes up just 10% of R1b1b2, in both the big 300+ sample lot from the southeast and in the other 38 samples labeled "France south". Crossing over into North Italy, L21 drops to 2% of the R1b1b2, while in Iberia L21 is 5% of their R1b1b2.

Can't wait to see what Maliclavelli is going to find about ht35, or what Stevo has to say about L21.

Notice that the French results are actually very small. There's 300+ samples from the most southeasterly quarter of the country, ok, fine, but the rest is rather insignificant. It's a total of just 93 samples, including just 53 R1b1b2, and 38 of the 93 are from the south, again, leaving just 55 central & north France samples, with barely 30 R1b1b2 samples.

But at least we can now see clearly that in south France L21 makes up just 10% of R1b1b2, in both the big 300+ sample lot from the southeast and in the other 38 samples labeled "France south". Crossing over into North Italy, L21 drops to 2% of the R1b1b2, while in Iberia L21 is 5% of their R1b1b2.

R-L21*'s least frequent quarter of France is the southeast. This turns out to be a various diverse area for P312 overall, probably mostly because of U152, which I think is the oldest subclade of P312, along with P312* and SRY2627.. a little of everything.

Another tidbit that makes this study superb and overall excellent... no haplogroup misclassification errors! Nothing! Zero! This must be a first in a y-dna study. And they listed 1,000+ R1b haplotypes, it's not a small set of samples. Very remarkable. Just last week a y-dna study came out of the Comoros Islands, and it was one of the worst error-filled y-dna studies ever, almost unbelievable.

About the only sample that calls my attention is an M269* from Slovenia, because it has 393=13 instead of 393=12, and it has 392=11, and it has 390=25 & 19=15. These values tend to point towards the sample possibly being R1a, maybe belonging to one of the M458+ clades (391=10, 439=11, 389B=16). But it's perfectly possible it's a legitimate M269* sample. And in M269* the values 390=25 and 19=15 tend to occur more often than in other R1b1b2 haplogroups.

So... outstanding, zero error y-dna study. And with 1,000+ haplotypes, nothing less. This study is beautiful. We'll be talking tons about this study for months to come.