Please note: we have been online over ten years, and we want The Trek BBS to continue as a free site. But if you block our ads we are at risk.Please consider unblocking ads for this site - every ad you view counts and helps us pay for the bandwidth that you are using. Thank you for your understanding.

Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.

The fact is, whichever side of the fence you are on, Starfleet does not have a equivalent to any modern military. It's mission purview is so outside of any Earth-bound experience, it makes any direct comparison impossible.

It has been referred to ON SCREEN as both a military organization AND non military. Most of the military evidence comes from the TOS era, like Kirk specifically claiming he's a soldier, them using military courts-martial etc, a science-vs-military argument in TWOK. Roddenberry's original pitch included the reference to Horatio Hornblower, stories of a military officer on a military vessel. How much of that was his real intent, or just flim-flam to try to sell the series to TV execs who wanted an action show, I doubt we will ever know.

What is plain is that his statments then changed, and everyone tried to conform to the new "not-military" directive.

The argument does seem to just be going around and around in circles, and IMHO it will never lead to a true consensus as all we can do is state the "it is" and "it isn't" statements, both of which are just as valid as the other.

Starfleet is therefore either a military organization, who due to the nature of a space service, spend most of their time in an exploratory and/or scientific role.

Or an exploratory/scientific organisation, who due to the nature of a space service, are also responsible to undertake the responsibilities of the military arm of The Federation.

Picard: "Starfleet is not a military organization."
Belz: "I disagree!"
Gardner: "I'm surprised Archer requested military officers to the Enterprise..."
Belz: "Starfleet IS the military, stupid!"
Scotty: "This is clearly a military mission! Is that what we are now?"
Belz: "You were always a military! What are you talking about?"

You don't agree with what Starfleet says about itself, so why would I expect you to believe me?

You know, two can play the cherry-picking game, as you've well seen in this thread, so why do you still insist on playing it ?

I'll offer once more TUC as a counter-example: as soon as the Klingon peace prospect is brought up, someone mentioned they might mothball Starfleet. I wonder why they'd say that, right ?

Heh. This entire debate reminds me of something Mimi Panitch wrote at least a decade ago, that being a Star Trek editor was like being the Pope during a period of extreme doctrinal dispute. Everybody interprets the sacred texts slightly differently--and are convinced that all other interpretations are heresy.

Sounds familiar, that does.

__________________"It is my belief that nearly any invented quotation, played with
confidence, stands a good chance to deceive." — Mark Twain

The Jewish sages who wrote the Talmud wrote that the Old Testament could be interpreted in four different ways. They were:
* Peshat - simple, literal interpretation of the work
* Remez - hints and allusions in the work
* Drush - deeper meanings in the work
* Sod - esoteric, mystical meanings in the work

I feel that many discussions of Star Trek often work at the Peshat, Remez, and, occasionally, Drush levels. Rarely, I have seen people working at the Sod level.

Since WWII, Japan is constitutionally prohibited from having a military. They nonetheless have forces to fulfill necessary functions of a military, of course. But these forces are not legally a military, and they aren't called that. They're called the Self Defense Forces. I don't see why Starfleet can't appear and act as a military (and thus be understandably referred to as one by outsiders) and still at least technically not be one.

__________________
Watch out, or I'll get you with my Andorian ice powers.

Since WWII, Japan is constitutionally prohibited from having a military. They nonetheless have forces to fulfill necessary functions of a military, of course. But these forces are not legally a military, and they aren't called that. They're called the Self Defense Forces. I don't see why Starfleet can't appear and act as a military (and thus be understandably referred to as one by outsiders) and still at least technically not be one.

Which is a very good point, and is precedent for what we see in the Federation after all.

As I said in another thread, given the reaction to the "Post Atomic Horror," United Earth probably has laws prohibiting the formation of a military force in space (in fact, we already HAVE laws like that, but World War III would have certainly reaffirmed the reasons for them). The same laws wouldn't prohibit the formation of a scientific research agency, and thus Earth Starfleet was created, modeled as a spaceborne version of NOAA. When the need arose for inter-system law enforcement actions, United Earth turned to the only agency with any warp-capable spacecraft and allowed them to arm those ships with weapons. When the Death Star Mini drew a smiley face on Florida, Earth again turned to the only agency with warp capable starships (and the only man who seemed to have only idea what the hell was going on), provided them with still BETTER weapons and sent them to deliver the Xindi a strongly worded letter.

Starfleet grew into a paramilitary organization very VERY slowly, over a number of years and through a number of acts of pure convenience. It isn't so much that the Federation (or maybe just Earth) avoided making them a formal military organization, they simply never BOTHERED to, as Starfleet was able to do exactly what they needed it to without changing it from what it originally was in the first place.

If Japan had an oceanographic research agency that was as well armed as the JSDF, they wouldn't need a military force of any kind.

Just take Kirk's comment to John Christopher literally "we're a combined service" (IIRC).

Starfleet is a multipurpose organization whose military functions come to the fore when needed but otherwise recede into the background when other duties arise. It's not really all that complicated a concept.

Works for me.

Except that what everyone seems to forget about Kirk's conversation with Captain Christopher is that Kirk's combined service comment was in response to Christopher asking if Kirk was part ogf the Navy, so Kirk seemed to be saying Starfleet was an organization that was more of combination of all the military branches.

They never really went into whether Starfleet was a military or not in that episode.

Location: La Belle Province or The Green Mountain State (depends on the day of the week)

Re: Scotty and his military comment

Hartzilla2007 wrote:

Greg Cox wrote:

Ovation wrote:

Just take Kirk's comment to John Christopher literally "we're a combined service" (IIRC).

Starfleet is a multipurpose organization whose military functions come to the fore when needed but otherwise recede into the background when other duties arise. It's not really all that complicated a concept.

Works for me.

Except that what everyone seems to forget about Kirk's conversation with Captain Christopher is that Kirk's combined service comment was in response to Christopher asking if Kirk was part ogf the Navy, so Kirk seemed to be saying Starfleet was an organization that was more of combination of all the military branches.

They never really went into whether Starfleet was a military or not in that episode.

Your interpretation is probably correct regarding the original episode's writer's intent. I just meant, rather than go one for hundreds of posts round and round in a circle, if we took Kirk's words literally, there is no real reason to argue. Starfleet is a multipurpose institution that includes military, diplomatic, exploratory and scientific duties. As it is a fictional institution, there is no need for it to be classified as more one of those things than the other a priori--the institution merely serves whatever function the story calls for.

Since WWII, Japan is constitutionally prohibited from having a military. They nonetheless have forces to fulfill necessary functions of a military, of course. But these forces are not legally a military, and they aren't called that. They're called the Self Defense Forces. I don't see why Starfleet can't appear and act as a military (and thus be understandably referred to as one by outsiders) and still at least technically not be one.

As I understand, Japan's defense force is just that, a defense force with no offensive capabilities. While Starfleet might not always go on the offensive, they do have offensive capabilities.

I'll offer once more TUC as a counter-example: as soon as the Klingon peace prospect is brought up, someone mentioned they might mothball Starfleet.

Which was a strawman, not a serious suggestion, considering Spock never said anything about the ships, only the neutral zone outposts.

It's a bit like when someone suggests "I think we should pull out of Afghanistan" and somebody replies "You mean we should let the terrorists win?"

From the script

SPOCK: Good morning. Two months ago a Federation starship monitored an explosion on the Klingon moon Praxis. We believe it was caused by over-mining and insufficient safety precautions. The moon's decimation means a deadly pollution of their ozone. They will have depleted their supply of oxygen in approximately fifty Earth years. Due to their enormous military budget, the Klingon economy does not have the resources to combat this catastrophe. Last month, at the behest of the Vulcan Ambassador I opened a dialogue with Gorkon, Chancellor of the Klingon High Council. He proposes to commence negotiations at once.

CARTWRIGHT: Negotiations for what?

SPOCK: The dismantling of our space stations and starbases along the Neutral Zone, an end to almost seventy years of unremitting hostility with the Klingons, which the Klingons can no longer afford.

MILITARY AIDE: Bill, are we talking about mothballing the Starfleet?

C in C: I'm sure that our exploration and scientific programs would be unaffected, Captain, but...

CARTWRIGHT: I must protest. To offer the Klingons a safe haven within Federation space is suicide. Klingons would become the alien trash of the galaxy. And if we dismantle the fleet, we'd be defenceless before an aggressive species with a foothold on our territory. The opportunity here is to bring them to their knees. Then we'll be in a far better position to dictate terms.

The lines clearly indicate that they feared dismantling Starfleet, yet leaving the exploratory and scientific branches open, a military viewpoint and reference. This possible threat to Starfleet was the reason for the conspiracy in the first place, so hardly a straw-man argument if Cartwright and other officers believed the threat was real enough to act against their own government.

HOWEVER although this is more evidence to the military-side of the argument, this IS from TUC, which as you have pointed out, is under Meyers more "Starfleet is Military" outlook.

I still stand by my assertion though, on-screen evidence supports both options equally, so both viewpoints are equally as valid.

How can we, as fans, make a final assessment when even the characters (occasionally even the SAME character) have differing opinions ??