Has anyone considered trying to change the order of Rip -> CP to CP -> Rip in the APL when Feral Rage is available for use (T16 4set)? It's mostly caused when rip and roar have synced durations and TF will expire sometime in the 0-6second-left window. I had this happen a lot last night and I couldn't decide whether to roar->rip or FB->rip (since it's near-instant 2x 5CPs) since I was easily energy capping while doing so.

@Inferiorlol: while that might be a gain, I'd probably want to shoot myself after doing that on every pull :p. Change Talent, Cast HT, Change Talent, Symbiosis, Pull, Potion, ...

@Alpheus: I don't understand what you are suggesting -- what kind of a change would you make?

Are you talking about the opener? I've experimented with using FB and/or SR as my first finisher during Heroic Malkorok progression. It's super tight (1 parry from a random spin and gg) but it felt viable. I typically get a DoC'd replacement Rip up before the 10sec is over anyway, but it depends heavily on crits and the alignment of my SR`0 cast. If I didn't have to cast Faerie Fire, I feel like I could do it 100% of the time. If you don't SR, you'll end up SR`0'ing again after Rune fades. I'll add both of these as opener options in Catus tonight.

I just wanted to make sure that the current recommendation isn't to maintain high Thrash uptime on single-target, since there doesn't appear to be any advantage in the Patchwerk sims. ~50% uptime with Clearcast-only vs. ~80% uptime with Aggressive (Use Thrash in Catus). Even if it was identical, I'd always choose the simpler option. Less energy spent on Thrash means more combos/finishers. Maybe it varies with HotW/DoC and/or different gemming (like Yellow mode), but for most combinations I try, Clearcast-only as the best. I'd imagine there are other times too (lots of procs active) but I don't have that as an ez-mode option.

raffy wrote:I just wanted to make sure that the current recommendation isn't to maintain high Thrash uptime on single-target, since there doesn't appear to be any advantage in the Patchwerk sims. ~50% uptime with Clearcast-only vs. ~80% uptime with Aggressive (Use Thrash in Catus). Even if it was identical, I'd always choose the simpler option. Less energy spent on Thrash means more combos/finishers. Maybe it varies with HotW/DoC and/or different gemming (like Yellow mode), but for most combinations I try, Clearcast-only as the best. I'd imagine there are other times too (lots of procs active) but I don't have that as an ez-mode option.

That also depends on how "good" you are at using clearcast on thrash. Me for example, not so much. I know there's a .react but I think that's too generous for some.

Just as a test, I ran 4 sims in my current gear/spec (HotW+SotF):

No Thrash at all: 311.2kClearcast only: 317.8kUse Thrash: 318.0kUse but no Clearcast: 315.9k

So really, it depends on how effective you are at capitalizing on Clearcast procs. To me, the "simpler" rotation out of these is the Use but no Clearcast thrash (ie use thrash, try to use in clearcast, but if you don't do it well, its still a dps up). But its going to depend on the player. But that's also from an ovale point of view (it lets me know when its ok to thrash). Someone doing it without might not agree.

raffy wrote:Are you talking about the opener? I've experimented with using FB and/or SR as my first finisher during Heroic Malkorok progression. It's super tight (1 parry from a random spin and gg) but it felt viable. I typically get a DoC'd replacement Rip up before the 10sec is over anyway, but it depends heavily on crits and the alignment of my SR`0 cast. If I didn't have to cast Faerie Fire, I feel like I could do it 100% of the time. If you don't SR, you'll end up SR`0'ing again after Rune fades. I'll add both of these as opener options in Catus tonight.

Well at times when both Rip and Roar will run out within 1sec the APL will try to squeeze in a rip before roar expires to avoid extensive downtime, but with the 4set it's perfectly valid to do roar first and then go to rip asap off of the 3combo head start from the 4set. I was just thinking whether this logic could be generalized for most of our finishers. And no, this isn't for opening.

Numbers are defiantly different (not 100% sure its the same settings but I think so, turned on/off noob mode to reset all the settings since my character didn't load after the update) but didn't really change the clearcast vs use for me.

*Included the rune clip one as its something that you haven't put in catus that's in the simc action list, though its a fairly minor difference so probably doesn't matter too much).

In Simc, Use Thrash is a pretty clear up. Looks like the difference is you're getting way more thrashes off with catus's clearcast thrash than simc is. I only get 9.1 Thrashes in Simc to 15.7 in catus in "Clearcast" Only. However, I get 25.8 Thrashes in Simc to 24.0 in Catus in "Use Thrash" (+0.6 to both if you add the clip early at end of Rune)

The other thing of note is Catus is using significantly more Rake fillers (I assume fillers anyhow) than Simc is (71.1 total rakes vs 105.5). This likely also accounts for less thrashes in the "Use Thrash" in catus as we're clipping rake more often. If I had to guess, Catus is the more accurate in this case because Simc doesn't account for crit when comparing damage so Simc probably low in rake usage (and wierdly enough, accounting for it in Simc is a dps downgrade...). Most everything else seems to be pretty close in terms of usage amount.

EDIT: One last difference is your clearcast thrash line requires rake to be ticking. Taking that out results in ~0.2 more Thrash usages. Not sure which is better.

Thanks Shmoo. All settings should be the same, I just changed something internally. When "Noob Mode" is disabled, there's a "Recommended Effects" button visible in the Encounter pane (I didn't know where else to put it) which is equivalent to toggling "Noob Mode".

I'll look into the "Use Thrash" discrepancy. The Rune logic is missing because I wanted to remove trinket-specific logic and replace it with rake_power, rip_power, thrash_power, etc.. logic but never got around to it.

Alpheus wrote:Well at times when both Rip and Roar will run out within 1sec the APL will try to squeeze in a rip before roar expires to avoid extensive downtime, but with the 4set it's perfectly valid to do roar first and then go to rip asap off of the 3combo head start from the 4set. I was just thinking whether this logic could be generalized for most of our finishers. And no, this isn't for opening.

Got my 4pc last week. After raiding this week I am wondering the same thing.

Have anyone investigated anything about hardcasting HT mid fight? I had a scenario yesterday on Thok and he was at 25% both my trinkets procced but I didn't have DoC buff for my BitW Rip. Thinking back on it, it must have made sense for me to just hardcast a HT in that situation to give a bit extra juice to my Rip since it will be up on the boss for so long.

inferiorlol wrote:Have anyone investigated anything about hardcasting HT mid fight? I had a scenario yesterday on Thok and he was at 25% both my trinkets procced but I didn't have DoC buff for my BitW Rip. Thinking back on it, it must have made sense for me to just hardcast a HT in that situation to give a bit extra juice to my Rip since it will be up on the boss for so long.

As long as you will still have time to shift back into cat and get up Rip, it will definitely be worth it.

inferiorlol wrote:Have anyone investigated anything about hardcasting HT mid fight? I had a scenario yesterday on Thok and he was at 25% both my trinkets procced but I didn't have DoC buff for my BitW Rip. Thinking back on it, it must have made sense for me to just hardcast a HT in that situation to give a bit extra juice to my Rip since it will be up on the boss for so long.

As long as you will still have time to shift back into cat and get up Rip, it will definitely be worth it.

Yeah, but my example was like the most extreme possible. What if you don't have trinket procs? What if you have not just entered the BitW phase. Does it mostly make sense to hardcast a HT before what would else be a non DoC rip or is it very rarely it is useful etc etc? I guess on a patchwerk fight basically all Rips will be DoC buffed but in reality bosses move and you target switch etc etc.

I guess in general my question is:

You are at 5 CP without a DoC buff and want to cast Rip. Under what conditions does it make sense to hardcast a HT before Ripping.

Outside of your extreme situation (ie a once a fight thing) all attempts previous to sim hardcasting HT for DoC charges is a DPS loss. I would expect even more so now then previously. This is because of the much higher gear levels and current 4p bonus leave a lot less down time in the rotation then at the start (or even mid ToT).

can someone that has the new ovale and 5.4.3.1 leafkiller explain why its suggesting rip spamming when theres more than 3/4ths of the rip still ticking with no new trinkets going off... I have 536 RoR and AOC when neither is active it still suggests rip refresh with more than 6 to 10 secons left on it instead of FB

bacevicius wrote:can someone that has the new ovale and 5.4.3.1 leafkiller explain why its suggesting rip spamming when theres more than 3/4ths of the rip still ticking with no new trinkets going off... I have 536 RoR and AOC when neither is active it still suggests rip refresh with more than 6 to 10 secons left on it instead of FB

actions=ravage,if=buff.prowl.up&active_enemies=1actions+=/auto_attack# Keep Rip from falling off during execute range.actions+=/ferocious_bite,cycle_targets=1,if=dot.rip.ticking&dot.rip.remains<=3&target.health.pct<=25actions+=/faerie_fire,cycle_targets=1,if=debuff.physical_vulnerability.downactions+=/savage_roar,if=buff.savage_roar.remains<3actions+=/virmens_bite_potion,if=target.time_to_die<=40actions+=/tigers_fury,if=energy<=35&!buff.omen_of_clarity.reactactions+=/berserk,if=buff.tigers_fury.upactions+=/virmens_bite_potion,sync=berserk,if=target.health.pct<25actions+=/use_item,slot=hands,if=buff.tigers_fury.upactions+=/berserking,if=buff.tigers_fury.upactions+=/rip,cycle_targets=1,if=dot.rip.remains<2&combo_points>=5actions+=/rip,cycle_targets=1,if=(target.health.pct<25|dot.rip.remains<4.8)&combo_points>=5&action.rip.tick_multiplier>dot.rip.multiplieractions+=/thrash_cat,if=dot.thrash_cat.remains<4.5actions+=/rip,cycle_targets=1,if=dot.rip.remains<4.8&combo_points>=5&energy.time_to_max<=1actions+=/ferocious_bite,if=energy.time_to_max<=1&dot.rip.remains>=4actions+=/rake,cycle_targets=1,if=dot.rake.remains<3|(active_enemies>1&dot.rake.remains<4.5)actions+=/rake,cycle_targets=1,if=action.rake.tick_multiplier>dot.rake.multiplieractions+=/run_action_list,name=filler,if=combo_points<5actions+=/faerie_fire,cycle_targets=1,if=debuff.physical_vulnerability.remains>0

I've just committed the action list with SimulationCraft, so if you import your character using WoD branch SimC then it will generate an action list for you.

If anyone is interested in toying around with it, I've finished implemented more or less everything for feral, although there's a few important things to note:

Gear is scaled down but gems and enchants are not. This is a blizzard issue, so until they lower the budget of these items having them on your character will inflate the hell out of your stats. I recommend removing all of them if you want any valuable information. Also note that if you have a Rune of Re-Origination, you probably want to use a different trinket since your stats will be all messed up from not having any gems, enchants, or reforges.

Lunar Inspiration is partially implemented but will currently not work due to a bug. All of the other level 100 talents are implemented (character must be of appropriate level to use them).

Draenor Perks are given in their entirety to any character of level 91 or higher.