Why were Europeans more likely than Americans to take refuge in the possibility of a strong state that is able to produce some sort of of utopia? In my mind, Communism and Fascism both represented Europeans widespread beliefs that their governments could repair the damage which in many cases was caused by their governments, especially after World War I.

Many states gave liberalism a shot, but especially in Eastern Europe liberalism never really took hold. Czechoslovakia may have come the closest to a liberal democratic government during the interwar period in Eastern Europe, which is the reason for their first President being honored in my avatar, but even there persisted strong tendencies toward ethno-nationalism and socialism. The belief in a strong state in Europe prevails to this day, although today it looks less utopian, more practical.

I think that as the influence of the churches declined on the surface the influenece of a Christian frame of mind remained as powerful as ever. "Progress" is but a secularized Christianity. Perhaps even idolatry. It had the expected consequences. This is one reason why I find Paul relevant for the modern world. Man is incapable of creating a just society from his own resources.

The US did not experience a decline in church influence.

Whoever criticizes capitalism, while approving immigration, whose working class is its first victim, had better shut up. Whoever criticizes immigration, while remaining silent about capitalism, should do the same.

I think that as the influence of the churches declined on the surface the influenece of a Christian frame of mind remained as powerful as ever. "Progress" is but a secularized Christianity. Perhaps even idolatry. It had the expected consequences. This is one reason why I find Paul relevant for the modern world. Man is incapable of creating a just society from his own resources.

The US did not experience a decline in church influence.

Ok, so if that explanation is correct, what exactly caused Europe to secularize more and sooner than the United States?

Ok, so if that explanation is correct, what exactly caused Europe to secularize more and sooner than the United States?

I would say it was ultimately a consequence of the Reformation and personalities like Martin Luther. The separation of church and state is actually a Medieval (Catholic) concept. There were no national churches prior to the 16th century. Europe's religious turmoil stemmed largely from this disaster and hence the gradual transition from a holistic society into a society in which religion was relegated to the private sphere.

Whoever criticizes capitalism, while approving immigration, whose working class is its first victim, had better shut up. Whoever criticizes immigration, while remaining silent about capitalism, should do the same.

Mind you, I'm painting with broad strokes here. Obviously, there is much more to this view than I can relate now. I've read some Christopher Dawson and I'm drawing on his thoughts for the most part right now .

Last edited by Mister D; 11-05-2012 at 03:58 PM.

Whoever criticizes capitalism, while approving immigration, whose working class is its first victim, had better shut up. Whoever criticizes immigration, while remaining silent about capitalism, should do the same.

Obviously Mister D is part of the collective insanity that is driving America to commit suicide.

Mister D does not support Third World immigration.

Whoever criticizes capitalism, while approving immigration, whose working class is its first victim, had better shut up. Whoever criticizes immigration, while remaining silent about capitalism, should do the same.