Comments

6079 Smith W
7:25pm Sun 11 Nov 12

I saw this earlier today, what Harry Patch said, the guy who was the last British survivor of WW1.

"When the war ended, I don't know if I was more relieved that we'd won or that I didn't have to go back. Passchendaele was a disastrous battle – thousands and thousands of young lives were lost. It makes me angry. Earlier this year, I went back to Ypres to shake the hand of Herr Kuentz, Germany's only surviving veteran from the war. It was emotional. He is 107. We've had 87 years to think what war
is. To me, it's a licence to go out and murder. Why should the British government call me up and take me out to a battlefield to shoot a man I never knew, whose language I couldn't speak? All those lives lost for a war finished over a table. Now what is the sense in that?"

I saw this earlier today, what Harry Patch said, the guy who was the last British survivor of WW1.
"When the war ended, I don't know if I was more relieved that we'd won or that I didn't have to go back. Passchendaele was a disastrous battle – thousands and thousands of young lives were lost. It makes me angry. Earlier this year, I went back to Ypres to shake the hand of Herr Kuentz, Germany's only surviving veteran from the war. It was emotional. He is 107. We've had 87 years to think what war
is. To me, it's a licence to go out and murder. Why should the British government call me up and take me out to a battlefield to shoot a man I never knew, whose language I couldn't speak? All those lives lost for a war finished over a table. Now what is the sense in that?"6079 Smith W

I saw this earlier today, what Harry Patch said, the guy who was the last British survivor of WW1.

"When the war ended, I don't know if I was more relieved that we'd won or that I didn't have to go back. Passchendaele was a disastrous battle – thousands and thousands of young lives were lost. It makes me angry. Earlier this year, I went back to Ypres to shake the hand of Herr Kuentz, Germany's only surviving veteran from the war. It was emotional. He is 107. We've had 87 years to think what war
is. To me, it's a licence to go out and murder. Why should the British government call me up and take me out to a battlefield to shoot a man I never knew, whose language I couldn't speak? All those lives lost for a war finished over a table. Now what is the sense in that?"

Score: 0

Sidney Harbour-Bridge
10:39pm Sun 11 Nov 12

None, but if the public did not do what the politicians ordered, then they could be, and were, shot.

None, but if the public did not do what the politicians ordered, then they could be, and were, shot.Sidney Harbour-Bridge

None, but if the public did not do what the politicians ordered, then they could be, and were, shot.

Score: 0

Sdapeze
9:20am Mon 12 Nov 12

We must learn from the mistakes of the past by continuing to remember those that gave their lives. Politicians take us into wars. Politicians are able to do this because we vote for them. Those that do not vote have no say in the matter. http://youtu.be/dnV6
0uGGRzc

We must learn from the mistakes of the past by continuing to remember those that gave their lives. Politicians take us into wars. Politicians are able to do this because we vote for them. Those that do not vote have no say in the matter. http://youtu.be/dnV6
0uGGRzcSdapeze

We must learn from the mistakes of the past by continuing to remember those that gave their lives. Politicians take us into wars. Politicians are able to do this because we vote for them. Those that do not vote have no say in the matter. http://youtu.be/dnV6
0uGGRzc

Score: 0

wellnow
9:28am Mon 12 Nov 12

more sdapeze simplistic nonsense.

more sdapeze simplistic nonsense.wellnow

more sdapeze simplistic nonsense.

Score: 0

Feisty CBC
9:40am Mon 12 Nov 12

I particularly enjoyed the band and walking up the High Street afterwards with no traffic to hinder.

I particularly enjoyed the band and walking up the High Street afterwards with no traffic to hinder.Feisty CBC

I particularly enjoyed the band and walking up the High Street afterwards with no traffic to hinder.

Score: 0

romantic
10:28am Mon 12 Nov 12

Harry Patch is, of course, absolutely right. War is senseless, and is fought by young men and women at the behest of people in offices in Whitehall and their counterparts overseas.

But Remembrance Day is ultimately a day to remember. Few people actively choose to go to war. The reality is that most who did so in WW1 and WW2 had little choice in the matter. Yes, there were those who chose to conscientiously object. In WW1, the chances are you would be shot for it. In WW2, you´d probably end up in a prison camp. In reality, if you were an “ordinary lad” from a pit-village, you´d sign up because all your mates did so as well.

I´ve always had mixed thoughts about Poppy Day. When I was a kid, my grandfather´s generation had fought in WW2, so many people my age (I´m mid-40s) would have a direct connection with war. Not that most from that generation said much about it. But most of them would have known a mate who´d died, or would have lost family.

On the other hand, the wearing of the poppy has become almost compulsory for anybody on TV for example. You can almost sense them behind the scenes scurrying about saying not to forget the poppy. People get ripped to shreds if they don´t have their poppy on. You wonder if they really get what it´s about, or if it´s just something you wear because the producer tells you to.

There were pics yesterday of David Cameron selling arms to dodgy Middle Eastern dictators, but he´s still there with his poppy on. Does nobody see the irony in that? What does he think these people will do with their shiny new weapons systems?

When I see the politicians lining up at the Cenotaph, I do have mixed thoughts about it, because they are still sending people to wars now which are in some ways even more senseless than WW1 and WW2. As in all previous generations, those soldiers are vital until they return, at which point the system spits them out and forgets them. After WW1, they ended up selling matches in the street, now the unlucky ones come back from Afghanistan with bits missing.

I came out and watched the service and parade yesterday. I did it to honour the people in my family´s past who ended up going to war. In the past, I have wondered if war is somehow glorified by this day, but I´ve concluded that overall it´s not. For the young, it is maybe a time when they will start to learn that war is a real thing, not just something on a games console. If we´re not aware of the past, it can happen all over again. But it does make me uneasy that it is the politicians and royalty who take centre stage in it all.

Harry Patch is, of course, absolutely right. War is senseless, and is fought by young men and women at the behest of people in offices in Whitehall and their counterparts overseas.
But Remembrance Day is ultimately a day to remember. Few people actively choose to go to war. The reality is that most who did so in WW1 and WW2 had little choice in the matter. Yes, there were those who chose to conscientiously object. In WW1, the chances are you would be shot for it. In WW2, you´d probably end up in a prison camp. In reality, if you were an “ordinary lad” from a pit-village, you´d sign up because all your mates did so as well.
I´ve always had mixed thoughts about Poppy Day. When I was a kid, my grandfather´s generation had fought in WW2, so many people my age (I´m mid-40s) would have a direct connection with war. Not that most from that generation said much about it. But most of them would have known a mate who´d died, or would have lost family.
On the other hand, the wearing of the poppy has become almost compulsory for anybody on TV for example. You can almost sense them behind the scenes scurrying about saying not to forget the poppy. People get ripped to shreds if they don´t have their poppy on. You wonder if they really get what it´s about, or if it´s just something you wear because the producer tells you to.
There were pics yesterday of David Cameron selling arms to dodgy Middle Eastern dictators, but he´s still there with his poppy on. Does nobody see the irony in that? What does he think these people will do with their shiny new weapons systems?
When I see the politicians lining up at the Cenotaph, I do have mixed thoughts about it, because they are still sending people to wars now which are in some ways even more senseless than WW1 and WW2. As in all previous generations, those soldiers are vital until they return, at which point the system spits them out and forgets them. After WW1, they ended up selling matches in the street, now the unlucky ones come back from Afghanistan with bits missing.
I came out and watched the service and parade yesterday. I did it to honour the people in my family´s past who ended up going to war. In the past, I have wondered if war is somehow glorified by this day, but I´ve concluded that overall it´s not. For the young, it is maybe a time when they will start to learn that war is a real thing, not just something on a games console. If we´re not aware of the past, it can happen all over again. But it does make me uneasy that it is the politicians and royalty who take centre stage in it all.romantic

Harry Patch is, of course, absolutely right. War is senseless, and is fought by young men and women at the behest of people in offices in Whitehall and their counterparts overseas.

But Remembrance Day is ultimately a day to remember. Few people actively choose to go to war. The reality is that most who did so in WW1 and WW2 had little choice in the matter. Yes, there were those who chose to conscientiously object. In WW1, the chances are you would be shot for it. In WW2, you´d probably end up in a prison camp. In reality, if you were an “ordinary lad” from a pit-village, you´d sign up because all your mates did so as well.

I´ve always had mixed thoughts about Poppy Day. When I was a kid, my grandfather´s generation had fought in WW2, so many people my age (I´m mid-40s) would have a direct connection with war. Not that most from that generation said much about it. But most of them would have known a mate who´d died, or would have lost family.

On the other hand, the wearing of the poppy has become almost compulsory for anybody on TV for example. You can almost sense them behind the scenes scurrying about saying not to forget the poppy. People get ripped to shreds if they don´t have their poppy on. You wonder if they really get what it´s about, or if it´s just something you wear because the producer tells you to.

There were pics yesterday of David Cameron selling arms to dodgy Middle Eastern dictators, but he´s still there with his poppy on. Does nobody see the irony in that? What does he think these people will do with their shiny new weapons systems?

When I see the politicians lining up at the Cenotaph, I do have mixed thoughts about it, because they are still sending people to wars now which are in some ways even more senseless than WW1 and WW2. As in all previous generations, those soldiers are vital until they return, at which point the system spits them out and forgets them. After WW1, they ended up selling matches in the street, now the unlucky ones come back from Afghanistan with bits missing.

I came out and watched the service and parade yesterday. I did it to honour the people in my family´s past who ended up going to war. In the past, I have wondered if war is somehow glorified by this day, but I´ve concluded that overall it´s not. For the young, it is maybe a time when they will start to learn that war is a real thing, not just something on a games console. If we´re not aware of the past, it can happen all over again. But it does make me uneasy that it is the politicians and royalty who take centre stage in it all.

Score: 0

Reginald47
1:32pm Mon 12 Nov 12

How well put, romantic. I honour the death of any of our servicemen who die abroad in wars because it doesn't matter whether they should have gone, wanted to go, or how they died - the fact is they did and deserve our remembrance. I also think getting rid of Hitler and his Reich is entirely different from the folly we have been in in Iraq and are still in in Afghanistan. When I saw Blair lining up at the Cenotaph I wanted to throw up. But even though those two conflicts are not in my opinion 'they died for us' as earlier wars it could be argued were, it matters not. They are young men and women cut down in their prime bravely doing their job and I do remember and honour them and always will.

How well put, romantic. I honour the death of any of our servicemen who die abroad in wars because it doesn't matter whether they should have gone, wanted to go, or how they died - the fact is they did and deserve our remembrance. I also think getting rid of Hitler and his Reich is entirely different from the folly we have been in in Iraq and are still in in Afghanistan. When I saw Blair lining up at the Cenotaph I wanted to throw up. But even though those two conflicts are not in my opinion 'they died for us' as earlier wars it could be argued were, it matters not. They are young men and women cut down in their prime bravely doing their job and I do remember and honour them and always will.Reginald47

How well put, romantic. I honour the death of any of our servicemen who die abroad in wars because it doesn't matter whether they should have gone, wanted to go, or how they died - the fact is they did and deserve our remembrance. I also think getting rid of Hitler and his Reich is entirely different from the folly we have been in in Iraq and are still in in Afghanistan. When I saw Blair lining up at the Cenotaph I wanted to throw up. But even though those two conflicts are not in my opinion 'they died for us' as earlier wars it could be argued were, it matters not. They are young men and women cut down in their prime bravely doing their job and I do remember and honour them and always will.

Score: 0

Boris
1:40pm Mon 12 Nov 12

Luckily, unlike in London, at our local Remembrance Day the politicians know their place.
I have been to our parades in the past but had to miss yesterday's one. In the lead-up to November 11th, I have worn a red poppy and a white poppy, and often both together, but this year I didn't bother, precisely because of what romantic says, i.e. all those TV presenters and guests with their identical BBC-issue poppies (you can tell they have to put their own poppies in their pockets and wear the standard BBC one with the little leaf). Even foreigners, for whom it is not the tradition in their own countries, are made to wear the BBC poppy to be interviewed. There was a scandal yesterday because one player at a Premiership match declined to play with a poppy sewn on to his shirt. The poppy should be a matter of choice, but the media are making it compulsory. That has to be resisted.

Luckily, unlike in London, at our local Remembrance Day the politicians know their place.
I have been to our parades in the past but had to miss yesterday's one. In the lead-up to November 11th, I have worn a red poppy and a white poppy, and often both together, but this year I didn't bother, precisely because of what romantic says, i.e. all those TV presenters and guests with their identical BBC-issue poppies (you can tell they have to put their own poppies in their pockets and wear the standard BBC one with the little leaf). Even foreigners, for whom it is not the tradition in their own countries, are made to wear the BBC poppy to be interviewed. There was a scandal yesterday because one player at a Premiership match declined to play with a poppy sewn on to his shirt. The poppy should be a matter of choice, but the media are making it compulsory. That has to be resisted.Boris

Luckily, unlike in London, at our local Remembrance Day the politicians know their place.
I have been to our parades in the past but had to miss yesterday's one. In the lead-up to November 11th, I have worn a red poppy and a white poppy, and often both together, but this year I didn't bother, precisely because of what romantic says, i.e. all those TV presenters and guests with their identical BBC-issue poppies (you can tell they have to put their own poppies in their pockets and wear the standard BBC one with the little leaf). Even foreigners, for whom it is not the tradition in their own countries, are made to wear the BBC poppy to be interviewed. There was a scandal yesterday because one player at a Premiership match declined to play with a poppy sewn on to his shirt. The poppy should be a matter of choice, but the media are making it compulsory. That has to be resisted.

Score: 0

Boris
1:45pm Mon 12 Nov 12

Reginald47 wrote…

How well put, romantic. I honour the death of any of our servicemen who die abroad in wars because it doesn't matter whether they should have gone, wanted to go, or how they died - the fact is they did and deserve our remembrance. I also think getting rid of Hitler and his Reich is entirely different from the folly we have been in in Iraq and are still in in Afghanistan. When I saw Blair lining up at the Cenotaph I wanted to throw up. But even though those two conflicts are not in my opinion 'they died for us' as earlier wars it could be argued were, it matters not. They are young men and women cut down in their prime bravely doing their job and I do remember and honour them and always will.

Agreed, absolutely.

[quote][p][bold]Reginald47[/bold] wrote:
How well put, romantic. I honour the death of any of our servicemen who die abroad in wars because it doesn't matter whether they should have gone, wanted to go, or how they died - the fact is they did and deserve our remembrance. I also think getting rid of Hitler and his Reich is entirely different from the folly we have been in in Iraq and are still in in Afghanistan. When I saw Blair lining up at the Cenotaph I wanted to throw up. But even though those two conflicts are not in my opinion 'they died for us' as earlier wars it could be argued were, it matters not. They are young men and women cut down in their prime bravely doing their job and I do remember and honour them and always will.[/p][/quote]Agreed, absolutely.Boris

Reginald47 wrote…

How well put, romantic. I honour the death of any of our servicemen who die abroad in wars because it doesn't matter whether they should have gone, wanted to go, or how they died - the fact is they did and deserve our remembrance. I also think getting rid of Hitler and his Reich is entirely different from the folly we have been in in Iraq and are still in in Afghanistan. When I saw Blair lining up at the Cenotaph I wanted to throw up. But even though those two conflicts are not in my opinion 'they died for us' as earlier wars it could be argued were, it matters not. They are young men and women cut down in their prime bravely doing their job and I do remember and honour them and always will.

Agreed, absolutely.

Score: 0

Boris
1:49pm Mon 12 Nov 12

This song, written two centuries ago, and just as true now, accurately described what happens to soldiers who are badly wounded and thus no longer serve the government's purpose:
.
While goin' the road to sweet Athy, hurroo, hurroo
While goin' the road to sweet Athy, hurroo, hurroo
While goin' the road to sweet Athy
A stick in me hand and a tear in me eye
A doleful damsel I heard cry,
Johnny I hardly knew ye.

With your drums and guns and guns and drums, hurroo, hurroo
With your drums and guns and guns and drums, hurroo, hurroo
With your drums and guns and guns and drums
The enemy nearly slew ye
Oh my darling dear, Ye look so queer
Johnny I hardly knew ye.

Where are the eyes that looked so mild, hurroo, hurroo
Where are the eyes that looked so mild, hurroo, hurroo
Where are the eyes that looked so mild
When my poor heart you first beguiled
Why did ye scadaddle from me and the child
Oh Johnny, I hardly knew ye.

Where are your legs that used to run, hurroo, hurroo
Where are your legs that used to run, hurroo, hurroo
Where are your legs that used to run
When you went to carry a gun
Indeed your dancing days are done
Oh Johnny, I hardly knew ye.

I'm happy for to see ye home, hurroo, hurroo
I'm happy for to see ye home, hurroo, hurroo
I'm happy for to see ye home
All from the island of Sulloon
So low in the flesh, so high in the bone
Oh Johnny I hardly knew ye.

They're rolling out the guns again, hurroo, hurroo
They're rolling out the guns again, hurroo, hurroo
They're rolling out the guns again
But they never will take my sons again
No they'll never take my sons again
Johnny I'm swearing to ye.

This song, written two centuries ago, and just as true now, accurately described what happens to soldiers who are badly wounded and thus no longer serve the government's purpose:
.
While goin' the road to sweet Athy, hurroo, hurroo
While goin' the road to sweet Athy, hurroo, hurroo
While goin' the road to sweet Athy
A stick in me hand and a tear in me eye
A doleful damsel I heard cry,
Johnny I hardly knew ye.
With your drums and guns and guns and drums, hurroo, hurroo
With your drums and guns and guns and drums, hurroo, hurroo
With your drums and guns and guns and drums
The enemy nearly slew ye
Oh my darling dear, Ye look so queer
Johnny I hardly knew ye.
Where are the eyes that looked so mild, hurroo, hurroo
Where are the eyes that looked so mild, hurroo, hurroo
Where are the eyes that looked so mild
When my poor heart you first beguiled
Why did ye scadaddle from me and the child
Oh Johnny, I hardly knew ye.
Where are your legs that used to run, hurroo, hurroo
Where are your legs that used to run, hurroo, hurroo
Where are your legs that used to run
When you went to carry a gun
Indeed your dancing days are done
Oh Johnny, I hardly knew ye.
I'm happy for to see ye home, hurroo, hurroo
I'm happy for to see ye home, hurroo, hurroo
I'm happy for to see ye home
All from the island of Sulloon
So low in the flesh, so high in the bone
Oh Johnny I hardly knew ye.
Ye haven't an arm, ye haven't a leg, hurroo, hurroo
Ye haven't an arm, ye haven't a leg, hurroo, hurroo
Ye haven't an arm, ye haven't a leg
Ye're an armless, boneless, chickenless egg
Ye'll have to be put with a bowl out to beg
Oh Johnny I hardly knew ye.
They're rolling out the guns again, hurroo, hurroo
They're rolling out the guns again, hurroo, hurroo
They're rolling out the guns again
But they never will take my sons again
No they'll never take my sons again
Johnny I'm swearing to ye.Boris

This song, written two centuries ago, and just as true now, accurately described what happens to soldiers who are badly wounded and thus no longer serve the government's purpose:
.
While goin' the road to sweet Athy, hurroo, hurroo
While goin' the road to sweet Athy, hurroo, hurroo
While goin' the road to sweet Athy
A stick in me hand and a tear in me eye
A doleful damsel I heard cry,
Johnny I hardly knew ye.

With your drums and guns and guns and drums, hurroo, hurroo
With your drums and guns and guns and drums, hurroo, hurroo
With your drums and guns and guns and drums
The enemy nearly slew ye
Oh my darling dear, Ye look so queer
Johnny I hardly knew ye.

Where are the eyes that looked so mild, hurroo, hurroo
Where are the eyes that looked so mild, hurroo, hurroo
Where are the eyes that looked so mild
When my poor heart you first beguiled
Why did ye scadaddle from me and the child
Oh Johnny, I hardly knew ye.

Where are your legs that used to run, hurroo, hurroo
Where are your legs that used to run, hurroo, hurroo
Where are your legs that used to run
When you went to carry a gun
Indeed your dancing days are done
Oh Johnny, I hardly knew ye.

I'm happy for to see ye home, hurroo, hurroo
I'm happy for to see ye home, hurroo, hurroo
I'm happy for to see ye home
All from the island of Sulloon
So low in the flesh, so high in the bone
Oh Johnny I hardly knew ye.

They're rolling out the guns again, hurroo, hurroo
They're rolling out the guns again, hurroo, hurroo
They're rolling out the guns again
But they never will take my sons again
No they'll never take my sons again
Johnny I'm swearing to ye.

Score: 0

rhetoric
7:37am Tue 13 Nov 12

I think maybe, in view of the above comments, we need to get real.
.
This Remembrance Sunday I was in the company of a child of 9 educated in Europe. He was fully into the proceedings, and commented that the problem for his country and others prior to WW2 was, that Germany wanted to take parts of others' countries back into their own borders.
.
Given that such an action was going to put hundreds of thousands of the population into danger of a horrible death, and others under the rule of Hitler if they survived, might there not be some justification for a defensive action?
.
It happened anyway, but our brave boys fought back and eventually the horrors of Nazism - and other horrors from other creeds, don't forget - were put into the past.
.
Time and again it is said that if we don't learn from history we are doomed to repeat the same errors again and again. That could be used as an argument either for or against war.
.
War is horrible, as are the current lethal skirmishes. The big bully boys are also horrible and unfortunately always with us.
.
Thank God for those who defend our liberty and our right to live as we wish.
.
Thank God for those who, in many cases, volunteered to fight against the oppressors, and thank God for those who did not volunteer, but bravely gave their lives or their health in the long fight for freedom.
.
It does now seem apparent that the Nazis had a very unpleasant fate in mind for the British, so how many of us would be here if they'd defeated this country in WW2?

I think maybe, in view of the above comments, we need to get real.
.
This Remembrance Sunday I was in the company of a child of 9 educated in Europe. He was fully into the proceedings, and commented that the problem for his country and others prior to WW2 was, that Germany wanted to take parts of others' countries back into their own borders.
.
Given that such an action was going to put hundreds of thousands of the population into danger of a horrible death, and others under the rule of Hitler if they survived, might there not be some justification for a defensive action?
.
It happened anyway, but our brave boys fought back and eventually the horrors of Nazism - and other horrors from other creeds, don't forget - were put into the past.
.
Time and again it is said that if we don't learn from history we are doomed to repeat the same errors again and again. That could be used as an argument either for or against war.
.
War is horrible, as are the current lethal skirmishes. The big bully boys are also horrible and unfortunately always with us.
.
Thank God for those who defend our liberty and our right to live as we wish.
.
Thank God for those who, in many cases, volunteered to fight against the oppressors, and thank God for those who did not volunteer, but bravely gave their lives or their health in the long fight for freedom.
.
It does now seem apparent that the Nazis had a very unpleasant fate in mind for the British, so how many of us would be here if they'd defeated this country in WW2?rhetoric

I think maybe, in view of the above comments, we need to get real.
.
This Remembrance Sunday I was in the company of a child of 9 educated in Europe. He was fully into the proceedings, and commented that the problem for his country and others prior to WW2 was, that Germany wanted to take parts of others' countries back into their own borders.
.
Given that such an action was going to put hundreds of thousands of the population into danger of a horrible death, and others under the rule of Hitler if they survived, might there not be some justification for a defensive action?
.
It happened anyway, but our brave boys fought back and eventually the horrors of Nazism - and other horrors from other creeds, don't forget - were put into the past.
.
Time and again it is said that if we don't learn from history we are doomed to repeat the same errors again and again. That could be used as an argument either for or against war.
.
War is horrible, as are the current lethal skirmishes. The big bully boys are also horrible and unfortunately always with us.
.
Thank God for those who defend our liberty and our right to live as we wish.
.
Thank God for those who, in many cases, volunteered to fight against the oppressors, and thank God for those who did not volunteer, but bravely gave their lives or their health in the long fight for freedom.
.
It does now seem apparent that the Nazis had a very unpleasant fate in mind for the British, so how many of us would be here if they'd defeated this country in WW2?

Score: 0

6079 Smith W
6:12pm Tue 13 Nov 12

I read only yesterday that Britain has at some stage invaded 90% of the countries on the planet. Pointing to the only just war in Britain's history is not really a justification of war (when all the others have been merely about imperialist conquest and the greed of Britain's rich), especially when we take a few other factors about WW2 into consideration.

WW2 is intrinsically linked to WW1, the needless waste of life in an imperialist massacre. It's settlement, the Treaty of Versailles, was a terrible injustice on the German people, and gave rise to a justified persecution complex, and ultimately the Nazis. But even then Britain supported Hitler initially, and supported the fascists in the Spanish civil war. I'd hazard a guess there would have been many on here who would have supported the appeasement rhetoric (especially as it was dressed up in anti-communist tones), though I'd like to think I'd have been brave enough to have joined the international brigades in Spain (where a fascist defeat would probably have prevented WW2 anyway).

However, thanks to how Britain and her allies behaved at Versailles, and the continued British support of Hitler and fascism, we ended up with an evil that needed dealing with. So while this makes WW2 the only just war in British history, only a naive fool would think Britain's ruling class fought it for reasons of justice - let's face it the injustice of Nazism was apparent when Britain was still sucking on Hitler's single ball. No, Britain suddenly realised that Nazi Germany was a threat to its empire, and that's why Britain finally turned against fascism. And even in the prosecution of this war, Churchill favoured not an invasion through France, but through eastern Europe, in order to cut off Soviet advances.

It remains perhaps this country's greatest historical irony, that Nazi Germany would have probably been more favourable to Britain's imperialist aims, then the US eventually turned out to be. The elite's war aim - to protect the Empire - was lost anyway. So in terms of Britain's ruling class the war was a mistake, but I'm glad it was a mistake they made.

I read only yesterday that Britain has at some stage invaded 90% of the countries on the planet. Pointing to the only just war in Britain's history is not really a justification of war (when all the others have been merely about imperialist conquest and the greed of Britain's rich), especially when we take a few other factors about WW2 into consideration.
WW2 is intrinsically linked to WW1, the needless waste of life in an imperialist massacre. It's settlement, the Treaty of Versailles, was a terrible injustice on the German people, and gave rise to a justified persecution complex, and ultimately the Nazis. But even then Britain supported Hitler initially, and supported the fascists in the Spanish civil war. I'd hazard a guess there would have been many on here who would have supported the appeasement rhetoric (especially as it was dressed up in anti-communist tones), though I'd like to think I'd have been brave enough to have joined the international brigades in Spain (where a fascist defeat would probably have prevented WW2 anyway).
However, thanks to how Britain and her allies behaved at Versailles, and the continued British support of Hitler and fascism, we ended up with an evil that needed dealing with. So while this makes WW2 the only just war in British history, only a naive fool would think Britain's ruling class fought it for reasons of justice - let's face it the injustice of Nazism was apparent when Britain was still sucking on Hitler's single ball. No, Britain suddenly realised that Nazi Germany was a threat to its empire, and that's why Britain finally turned against fascism. And even in the prosecution of this war, Churchill favoured not an invasion through France, but through eastern Europe, in order to cut off Soviet advances.
It remains perhaps this country's greatest historical irony, that Nazi Germany would have probably been more favourable to Britain's imperialist aims, then the US eventually turned out to be. The elite's war aim - to protect the Empire - was lost anyway. So in terms of Britain's ruling class the war was a mistake, but I'm glad it was a mistake they made.6079 Smith W

I read only yesterday that Britain has at some stage invaded 90% of the countries on the planet. Pointing to the only just war in Britain's history is not really a justification of war (when all the others have been merely about imperialist conquest and the greed of Britain's rich), especially when we take a few other factors about WW2 into consideration.

WW2 is intrinsically linked to WW1, the needless waste of life in an imperialist massacre. It's settlement, the Treaty of Versailles, was a terrible injustice on the German people, and gave rise to a justified persecution complex, and ultimately the Nazis. But even then Britain supported Hitler initially, and supported the fascists in the Spanish civil war. I'd hazard a guess there would have been many on here who would have supported the appeasement rhetoric (especially as it was dressed up in anti-communist tones), though I'd like to think I'd have been brave enough to have joined the international brigades in Spain (where a fascist defeat would probably have prevented WW2 anyway).

However, thanks to how Britain and her allies behaved at Versailles, and the continued British support of Hitler and fascism, we ended up with an evil that needed dealing with. So while this makes WW2 the only just war in British history, only a naive fool would think Britain's ruling class fought it for reasons of justice - let's face it the injustice of Nazism was apparent when Britain was still sucking on Hitler's single ball. No, Britain suddenly realised that Nazi Germany was a threat to its empire, and that's why Britain finally turned against fascism. And even in the prosecution of this war, Churchill favoured not an invasion through France, but through eastern Europe, in order to cut off Soviet advances.

It remains perhaps this country's greatest historical irony, that Nazi Germany would have probably been more favourable to Britain's imperialist aims, then the US eventually turned out to be. The elite's war aim - to protect the Empire - was lost anyway. So in terms of Britain's ruling class the war was a mistake, but I'm glad it was a mistake they made.

Score: 0

stilts
11:39pm Tue 13 Nov 12

There is a saying:

'if you can read thank a teacher, if you can speak English thank a soldier!'

Most wars are started for two reasons p\olitics or religion.

As our armed forces are totally professional and not conscripted then they will go where they are asked, without question. Remember it's not just Iraq and Afghanistan where the guys who have made the ultimate sacrifice for queen and country in recent history: Korea, Northern Ireland, Falklands & Bosnia etc!!

There is a saying:
'if you can read thank a teacher, if you can speak English thank a soldier!'
Most wars are started for two reasons p\olitics or religion.
As our armed forces are totally professional and not conscripted then they will go where they are asked, without question. Remember it's not just Iraq and Afghanistan where the guys who have made the ultimate sacrifice for queen and country in recent history: Korea, Northern Ireland, Falklands & Bosnia etc!!stilts

There is a saying:

'if you can read thank a teacher, if you can speak English thank a soldier!'

Most wars are started for two reasons p\olitics or religion.

As our armed forces are totally professional and not conscripted then they will go where they are asked, without question. Remember it's not just Iraq and Afghanistan where the guys who have made the ultimate sacrifice for queen and country in recent history: Korea, Northern Ireland, Falklands & Bosnia etc!!

Score: 0

jut1972
6:43pm Wed 14 Nov 12

6079 Smith W wrote…

I saw this earlier today, what Harry Patch said, the guy who was the last British survivor of WW1.

"When the war ended, I don't know if I was more relieved that we'd won or that I didn't have to go back. Passchendaele was a disastrous battle – thousands and thousands of young lives were lost. It makes me angry. Earlier this year, I went back to Ypres to shake the hand of Herr Kuentz, Germany's only surviving veteran from the war. It was emotional. He is 107. We've had 87 years to think what war
is. To me, it's a licence to go out and murder. Why should the British government call me up and take me out to a battlefield to shoot a man I never knew, whose language I couldn't speak? All those lives lost for a war finished over a table. Now what is the sense in that?"

Harry Patch was an absolute legend.

[quote][p][bold]6079 Smith W[/bold] wrote:
I saw this earlier today, what Harry Patch said, the guy who was the last British survivor of WW1.
"When the war ended, I don't know if I was more relieved that we'd won or that I didn't have to go back. Passchendaele was a disastrous battle – thousands and thousands of young lives were lost. It makes me angry. Earlier this year, I went back to Ypres to shake the hand of Herr Kuentz, Germany's only surviving veteran from the war. It was emotional. He is 107. We've had 87 years to think what war
is. To me, it's a licence to go out and murder. Why should the British government call me up and take me out to a battlefield to shoot a man I never knew, whose language I couldn't speak? All those lives lost for a war finished over a table. Now what is the sense in that?"[/p][/quote]Harry Patch was an absolute legend.jut1972

6079 Smith W wrote…

I saw this earlier today, what Harry Patch said, the guy who was the last British survivor of WW1.

"When the war ended, I don't know if I was more relieved that we'd won or that I didn't have to go back. Passchendaele was a disastrous battle – thousands and thousands of young lives were lost. It makes me angry. Earlier this year, I went back to Ypres to shake the hand of Herr Kuentz, Germany's only surviving veteran from the war. It was emotional. He is 107. We've had 87 years to think what war
is. To me, it's a licence to go out and murder. Why should the British government call me up and take me out to a battlefield to shoot a man I never knew, whose language I couldn't speak? All those lives lost for a war finished over a table. Now what is the sense in that?"

Harry Patch was an absolute legend.

Score: 0

romantic
9:26am Thu 15 Nov 12

Jut, Harry Patch is only known about because he happened to be the one who survived the longest. It is right and proper that people do listen to what he had to say, but the remembrance day services and parades are there for the thousands of other Harry Patches.

Each year, there will be less and less who were involved in WW2, but it is important that we keep it in peoples´minds.

Winston, you are right that the seeds of WW2 were sown at Versailles, but the ordinary people who ended up living through WW2 (and many dying, of course) didn´t have much say in that.

It is why it angers me so much to see politicians lining up at the Cenotaph, when all are still prepared to throw people into Afghanistan, Iraq etc with little clear idea of what they want to achieve.

Jut, Harry Patch is only known about because he happened to be the one who survived the longest. It is right and proper that people do listen to what he had to say, but the remembrance day services and parades are there for the thousands of other Harry Patches.
Each year, there will be less and less who were involved in WW2, but it is important that we keep it in peoples´minds.
Winston, you are right that the seeds of WW2 were sown at Versailles, but the ordinary people who ended up living through WW2 (and many dying, of course) didn´t have much say in that.
It is why it angers me so much to see politicians lining up at the Cenotaph, when all are still prepared to throw people into Afghanistan, Iraq etc with little clear idea of what they want to achieve.romantic

Jut, Harry Patch is only known about because he happened to be the one who survived the longest. It is right and proper that people do listen to what he had to say, but the remembrance day services and parades are there for the thousands of other Harry Patches.

Each year, there will be less and less who were involved in WW2, but it is important that we keep it in peoples´minds.

Winston, you are right that the seeds of WW2 were sown at Versailles, but the ordinary people who ended up living through WW2 (and many dying, of course) didn´t have much say in that.

It is why it angers me so much to see politicians lining up at the Cenotaph, when all are still prepared to throw people into Afghanistan, Iraq etc with little clear idea of what they want to achieve.

Score: 0

6079 Smith W
6:20pm Thu 15 Nov 12

romantic wrote…

Jut, Harry Patch is only known about because he happened to be the one who survived the longest. It is right and proper that people do listen to what he had to say, but the remembrance day services and parades are there for the thousands of other Harry Patches.

Each year, there will be less and less who were involved in WW2, but it is important that we keep it in peoples´minds.

Winston, you are right that the seeds of WW2 were sown at Versailles, but the ordinary people who ended up living through WW2 (and many dying, of course) didn´t have much say in that.

It is why it angers me so much to see politicians lining up at the Cenotaph, when all are still prepared to throw people into Afghanistan, Iraq etc with little clear idea of what they want to achieve.

But also remember that many 'ordinary people' did everything they could (and were killed, often by the revolution suppressing Soviets as well as the fascists) to prevent WW2 happening, during the Spanish Civil War. Pity that Britain's leaders were instead supporting fascism at the time.

You won't be surprised to learn that I completely endorse your comments about the hypocrisy of politicians.

[quote][p][bold]romantic[/bold] wrote:
Jut, Harry Patch is only known about because he happened to be the one who survived the longest. It is right and proper that people do listen to what he had to say, but the remembrance day services and parades are there for the thousands of other Harry Patches.
Each year, there will be less and less who were involved in WW2, but it is important that we keep it in peoples´minds.
Winston, you are right that the seeds of WW2 were sown at Versailles, but the ordinary people who ended up living through WW2 (and many dying, of course) didn´t have much say in that.
It is why it angers me so much to see politicians lining up at the Cenotaph, when all are still prepared to throw people into Afghanistan, Iraq etc with little clear idea of what they want to achieve.[/p][/quote]But also remember that many 'ordinary people' did everything they could (and were killed, often by the revolution suppressing Soviets as well as the fascists) to prevent WW2 happening, during the Spanish Civil War. Pity that Britain's leaders were instead supporting fascism at the time.
You won't be surprised to learn that I completely endorse your comments about the hypocrisy of politicians.6079 Smith W

romantic wrote…

Jut, Harry Patch is only known about because he happened to be the one who survived the longest. It is right and proper that people do listen to what he had to say, but the remembrance day services and parades are there for the thousands of other Harry Patches.

Each year, there will be less and less who were involved in WW2, but it is important that we keep it in peoples´minds.

Winston, you are right that the seeds of WW2 were sown at Versailles, but the ordinary people who ended up living through WW2 (and many dying, of course) didn´t have much say in that.

It is why it angers me so much to see politicians lining up at the Cenotaph, when all are still prepared to throw people into Afghanistan, Iraq etc with little clear idea of what they want to achieve.

But also remember that many 'ordinary people' did everything they could (and were killed, often by the revolution suppressing Soviets as well as the fascists) to prevent WW2 happening, during the Spanish Civil War. Pity that Britain's leaders were instead supporting fascism at the time.

You won't be surprised to learn that I completely endorse your comments about the hypocrisy of politicians.

Score: 0

Sdapeze
9:33am Fri 16 Nov 12

It happened and it is right that we should honour our heroes and learn from our history. But I am completely baffled as to why we have sent our boys out to Afghanistan to fight moslems. Bring our boys home and stick that moslem on a plane back to Jordan.

It happened and it is right that we should honour our heroes and learn from our history. But I am completely baffled as to why we have sent our boys out to Afghanistan to fight moslems. Bring our boys home and stick that moslem on a plane back to Jordan.Sdapeze

It happened and it is right that we should honour our heroes and learn from our history. But I am completely baffled as to why we have sent our boys out to Afghanistan to fight moslems. Bring our boys home and stick that moslem on a plane back to Jordan.

Score: 0

romantic
11:21am Fri 16 Nov 12

Sdapeze wrote…

It happened and it is right that we should honour our heroes and learn from our history. But I am completely baffled as to why we have sent our boys out to Afghanistan to fight moslems. Bring our boys home and stick that moslem on a plane back to Jordan.

I suspect part of the problem is that the people who sent our forces to Afghanistan are also pretty baffled as to why we are there. If it´s to "enable democracy", we should be sending forces to half the countries in the world.

The politicians are perfectly aware that there is no end-point in sight, where we can say we´ve achieved what we set out to do. It would show more strength on their part to admit this and get out of there, rather than continue to send forces in who are getting killed and injured daily. We could be there for 20 years and still be in much the same position.

[quote][p][bold]Sdapeze[/bold] wrote:
It happened and it is right that we should honour our heroes and learn from our history. But I am completely baffled as to why we have sent our boys out to Afghanistan to fight moslems. Bring our boys home and stick that moslem on a plane back to Jordan.[/p][/quote]I suspect part of the problem is that the people who sent our forces to Afghanistan are also pretty baffled as to why we are there. If it´s to "enable democracy", we should be sending forces to half the countries in the world.
The politicians are perfectly aware that there is no end-point in sight, where we can say we´ve achieved what we set out to do. It would show more strength on their part to admit this and get out of there, rather than continue to send forces in who are getting killed and injured daily. We could be there for 20 years and still be in much the same position.romantic

Sdapeze wrote…

It happened and it is right that we should honour our heroes and learn from our history. But I am completely baffled as to why we have sent our boys out to Afghanistan to fight moslems. Bring our boys home and stick that moslem on a plane back to Jordan.

I suspect part of the problem is that the people who sent our forces to Afghanistan are also pretty baffled as to why we are there. If it´s to "enable democracy", we should be sending forces to half the countries in the world.

The politicians are perfectly aware that there is no end-point in sight, where we can say we´ve achieved what we set out to do. It would show more strength on their part to admit this and get out of there, rather than continue to send forces in who are getting killed and injured daily. We could be there for 20 years and still be in much the same position.

Score: 0

6079 Smith W
8:26pm Fri 16 Nov 12

romantic wrote…

Sdapeze wrote…

It happened and it is right that we should honour our heroes and learn from our history. But I am completely baffled as to why we have sent our boys out to Afghanistan to fight moslems. Bring our boys home and stick that moslem on a plane back to Jordan.

I suspect part of the problem is that the people who sent our forces to Afghanistan are also pretty baffled as to why we are there. If it´s to "enable democracy", we should be sending forces to half the countries in the world.

The politicians are perfectly aware that there is no end-point in sight, where we can say we´ve achieved what we set out to do. It would show more strength on their part to admit this and get out of there, rather than continue to send forces in who are getting killed and injured daily. We could be there for 20 years and still be in much the same position.

That oil pipeline to the Caspian Sea reserves? The one that still hasn't been built ('cos the Taliban are somewhat stronger than they reckoned). I suspect they know full well why they went there. Just another imperialist smash and grab, just like all those others I talked about.

[quote][p][bold]romantic[/bold] wrote:
[quote][p][bold]Sdapeze[/bold] wrote:
It happened and it is right that we should honour our heroes and learn from our history. But I am completely baffled as to why we have sent our boys out to Afghanistan to fight moslems. Bring our boys home and stick that moslem on a plane back to Jordan.[/p][/quote]I suspect part of the problem is that the people who sent our forces to Afghanistan are also pretty baffled as to why we are there. If it´s to "enable democracy", we should be sending forces to half the countries in the world.
The politicians are perfectly aware that there is no end-point in sight, where we can say we´ve achieved what we set out to do. It would show more strength on their part to admit this and get out of there, rather than continue to send forces in who are getting killed and injured daily. We could be there for 20 years and still be in much the same position.[/p][/quote]That oil pipeline to the Caspian Sea reserves? The one that still hasn't been built ('cos the Taliban are somewhat stronger than they reckoned). I suspect they know full well why they went there. Just another imperialist smash and grab, just like all those others I talked about.6079 Smith W

romantic wrote…

Sdapeze wrote…

It happened and it is right that we should honour our heroes and learn from our history. But I am completely baffled as to why we have sent our boys out to Afghanistan to fight moslems. Bring our boys home and stick that moslem on a plane back to Jordan.

I suspect part of the problem is that the people who sent our forces to Afghanistan are also pretty baffled as to why we are there. If it´s to "enable democracy", we should be sending forces to half the countries in the world.

The politicians are perfectly aware that there is no end-point in sight, where we can say we´ve achieved what we set out to do. It would show more strength on their part to admit this and get out of there, rather than continue to send forces in who are getting killed and injured daily. We could be there for 20 years and still be in much the same position.

That oil pipeline to the Caspian Sea reserves? The one that still hasn't been built ('cos the Taliban are somewhat stronger than they reckoned). I suspect they know full well why they went there. Just another imperialist smash and grab, just like all those others I talked about.

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