visalemc said: You can see how dirty they are by the way in which they have injected conventional laws and prejudices into their interpretation of the Dhamma. If these are the representatives of "pure" Buddhism, then Buddhism is really in trouble. Big trouble.

How dare you refer to great bhikkhus in this scurrilous way. I see this is your first post ~ did you join just to do this and dis Thai Buddhism as well? A little more knowledge may have been of assistance to you. The majority of the Forest Sangha abbots do not oppose, but rather support, ordination of women.

---The trouble is that you think you have time------Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe------It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

I don't think the actions of a small group of Bhikkhu's are indicative of the majority of Thai Bhikkhus, let alone Thai Buddhism, let alone Thai people. There are many elements that make up a whole, to see a very small part of the whole picture and claim it as the whole, is a very sloppy, and hurtful assumption. Not only does it hurt you, it hurts others.

I hope this is a cause for some introspection, my good friend.

Jack

"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

"Majority"? Majority. That's all I hear is "most of the monks" or "majority of them". In the practical sense, it might as well be none. Here "majority" is meaningless because if this supposed majority exists, why has it allowed this minority represent them in such an unskillful manner? Why has this been allowed to exist for so long? This "most" is also responsible. As I've stated, wisdom is the main factor. How is the the wisdom of the Buddhas consistent with the intolerance and mistreatment of another because of sex or race? It's obvious that these senior monks lost face because they couldn't control one of their own. I say , deal with it. The Bhikkuni ordination is the essential issue here. If this "pure" Thai tradition can't separate, can't distinguish the twigs and leaves from the heartwood, it will die off through irrelevance. Let's not forget folks that Buddhism died off in the very country of its birth, how much more possible is it for this to occur in another?

As for these western monks, they too are complicit. Most have hidden behind the excuse of tradition and have deflected the issue by focusing on the "not the right way to have gone about it" perspective. Fine, it was unskillful to go about it that way, yet what about bhikkuni ordination? I've been waiting and still waiting for some of these Western Ajahns (Sumedho, Jayasaro) for whom I have profound respect and much gratitude to say how the mistreatment of women is conventional, cultural and not something which exists a priori in or flows naturally from Buddhism. As it is, I can only looked to the Dhamma and the Buddha in order to improve myself if the Sangha doesn't have the courage to do what should be done.

I am not sorry. Bhikkus can't be considered great if they let convention or tradition justify injustice and intolerance.

cooran wrote:How dare you refer to great bhikkhus in this scurrilous way. I see this is your first post ~ did you join just to do this and dis Thai Buddhism as well? A little more knowledge may have been of assistance to you. The majority of the Forest Sangha abbots do not oppose, but rather support, ordination of women.

In my opinion, this matter should be left to the Sangha to discuss and resolve, especially the Thai Forest Sangha. Those who are not well informed about the Vinaya are very likely to make akusala kamma in discussing this topic.

Those monks who explain not Vinaya as not Vinaya, Vinaya as Vinaya, what was not said by the Tathägata as not said by him, what was said by him as said by him, what was not practised by him as not practised by him, what was practised by him as practised by him, what was not laid down by him as not laid down by him, what was laid down by him as laid down by him, work for the welfare, happiness, and benefit of gods and men. They make much merit and preserve the true Dhamma. (A.i.140-149)

However, the converse is also true — those who explain what is not Vinaya as Vinaya, make much demerit and cause the disappearance of the true Dhamma.

If you do not know what is Vinaya or what is not Vinaya, do not express any opinion about what is or what is not in accordance with the Vinaya. Do not rely on hearsay, do not fall prey to prejudice (against prohibiting bhikkhuni ordination), or bias (in favour of it).

Not all women who decide to become Buddhist nuns want to be bhikkhunis.Here is a video with Sister (Saylay) Visuddhi from Malaysia interviewed by Bhante Anandajoti at Vivekavana in January 2010. She talks about life as a 10 precept nun and the challenges of it:

gavesako wrote:Not all women who decide to become Buddhist nuns want to be bhikkhunis.Here is a video with Sister (Saylay) Visuddhi from Malaysia interviewed by Bhante Anandajoti at Vivekavana in January 2010. She talks about life as a 10 precept nun and the challenges of it:

Last edited by manas on Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity." (SN 22.97)

I saw this news recently. How wonderful! I'd love to be in the company of these great bhikkhuni's for even a week of practice. Hopefully their community will continue to grow and flourish.

"Upon a heap of rubbish in the road-side ditch blooms a lotus, fragrant and pleasing.Even so, on the rubbish heap of blinded mortals the disciple of the Supremely Enlightened One shines resplendent in wisdom." Dhammapada: Pupphavaggahttp://www.accesstoinsight.org/

visalemc wrote:"Majority"? Majority. That's all I hear is "most of the monks" or "majority of them". In the practical sense, it might as well be none. Here "majority" is meaningless because if this supposed majority exists, why has it allowed this minority represent them in such an unskillful manner? Why has this been allowed to exist for so long? This "most" is also responsible. As I've stated, wisdom is the main factor. How is the the wisdom of the Buddhas consistent with the intolerance and mistreatment of another because of sex or race? It's obvious that these senior monks lost face because they couldn't control one of their own. I say , deal with it. The Bhikkuni ordination is the essential issue here. If this "pure" Thai tradition can't separate, can't distinguish the twigs and leaves from the heartwood, it will die off through irrelevance. Let's not forget folks that Buddhism died off in the very country of its birth, how much more possible is it for this to occur in another?

I always find it funny when people talk about this small group of well-practiced monks as though they represent Thailand. There are Bhikkhunis all over Thailand, sir. One of my students just ordained as a Bhikkhuni and is now in Wat Rampoeng in Chiang Mai, I think. There's three Bhikkhuni monasteries in Chiang Main alone. Wat Pa Nanachat is not Thai Buddhism. They just happen to be a small group that has gained International acclaim, and rightly so. They are still a small minority and what the Wat Nong Pa Bong sangha says is not really indicative of what the rest of the country is doing. Heck, what the Sangharaja says is not really indicative of what the rest of the country is doing.

visalemc wrote:"Majority"? Majority. That's all I hear is "most of the monks" or "majority of them". In the practical sense, it might as well be none. Here "majority" is meaningless because if this supposed majority exists, why has it allowed this minority represent them in such an unskillful manner? Why has this been allowed to exist for so long? This "most" is also responsible. As I've stated, wisdom is the main factor. How is the the wisdom of the Buddhas consistent with the intolerance and mistreatment of another because of sex or race? It's obvious that these senior monks lost face because they couldn't control one of their own. I say , deal with it. The Bhikkuni ordination is the essential issue here. If this "pure" Thai tradition can't separate, can't distinguish the twigs and leaves from the heartwood, it will die off through irrelevance. Let's not forget folks that Buddhism died off in the very country of its birth, how much more possible is it for this to occur in another?

I always find it funny when people talk about this small group of well-practiced monks as though they represent Thailand. There are Bhikkhunis all over Thailand, sir. One of my students just ordained as a Bhikkhuni and is now in Wat Rampoeng in Chiang Mai, I think. There's three Bhikkhuni monasteries in Chiang Main alone. Wat Pa Nanachat is not Thai Buddhism. They just happen to be a small group that has gained International acclaim, and rightly so. They are still a small minority and what the Wat Nong Pa Bong sangha says is not really indicative of what the rest of the country is doing. Heck, what the Sangharaja says is not really indicative of what the rest of the country is doing.

Thanks for this info Bhante

The dogmatists have claimed to have found the truth, others say that it cannot be apprehended; the Sceptics continue the search. Sextus Empiricus

Most of this discussion presents a picture of some Buddhist version of the highly intense politics in the Catholic church, where scripture can be used to justify self-assertion and vindictiveness. Almost no one seems concerned for the well-being and future of the women involved or other women who might be involved more deeply with Buddhism. "We have our laws, we have our procedures, we have our traditions." What rubbish if they are all used to grind down women not to help them. Compassion has vanished.

--Allan Adasiak (And look: I am not hiding behind some pseudonym. That is my real name.)

Now that the Bhikkhunis are back, there is much to be done and much have been benefited from Them

Bhikkhus, if you develop and make much this one thing, it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction. What is it? It is recollecting the Enlightened One. If this single thing is recollected and made much, it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.Anguttara-Nikaya: Ekanipata: Ekadhammapali: PañhamavaggaBuddhanussatiSCVSMVMMBS

---The trouble is that you think you have time------Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe------It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

In my mind, this speaker exemplifies much is what is of concern regarding the cult-like Ajahn Brahm tradition. It is reminiscent of the stories of Lutherism, when after converting the unruly masses to his bubble-gum Christianity, Luther's hordes invaded Rome, sacking the Vatican & raping the nuns.

It seems Mr Sheppard is speaking from a blind obedience or allegience to Ajahn Brahm, seemingly with Ajahn Brahm's consent. Mr Sheppard has made a number of allegations, including labelling the WPP monks in general as possessing "anger" and "ill-will". Further, Mr Sheppard exalts his people, as possessing metta & good-will. Mr Sheppard has exalt oneself & disparaged another, plus spoken unverified allegations. Then, for some bizarre reason, Mr Sheppard seeks to make concord with WPP, including invoking the name of Ajahn Chah, who did not support female ordination.

It also seems Mr Sheppard is speaking from a blind ignorance in relation to the Thai culture & monastic institution. As shared recently in a video, the Bhikkhu Yuttadhammo skilfully expressed the views of a senior Thai monk, who said the Thai monastic system is already "heavily burdened" and under much pressure. Unlike Mr Sheppard, with some exposure to the Thai monastic system, we may see it fulfils many social roles apart from solely supporting monks who are devoted to the meditation path. Each year, vast numnbers of Thai men will ordain for once in a lifetime three months as a monk. Many boys & men from poor social classes will ordain, merely for the purpose of receiving an education & hopefully a university degree. Many men will enter the monastery to overcome drug addictions or due to financial hardship.

In my mind, Mr Sheppard was not the appropriate person to give such a speech, displaying much cultural ignorance. A typical Aussie who probably knows little about Buddhism, apart from what Ajahn Brahm has spoken. And as I said, a wonderful example of the loyal layfollower or "soldier".

Myself, I wonder why they cannot simply separate. Ajahn Brahm is not publically teaching in the manner of Ajahn Chan and the Forest Tradition, anyway.

As for Ajahn Brahm, he probably looks upon it all with a sense of detachment amusement.

I know that this message is a bit like printing "this page intentionally left blank" on the blank side of a piece of paper, but I'd like to say that I have made a decision to speak skillfully and use my time efficiently for what is important by not posting this thread. No disrespect meant to anyone.

In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

BrownRice (Element) wrote:In my mind, this speaker exemplifies much is what is of concern regarding the cult-like Ajahn Brahm tradition. It is reminiscent of the stories of Lutherism, when after converting the unruly masses to his bubble-gum Christianity, Luther's hordes invaded Rome, sacking the Vatican & raping the nuns.

"Raping the nuns"? Come on...are you honestly going to compare supporting bhikkhuni ordination to "raping nuns"?!?!...that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard!

Please stop this divisive speech, it is such a terrible thing to see.

Metta,

Guy

Four types of letting go:

1) Giving; expecting nothing back in return2) Throwing things away3) Contentment; wanting to be here, not wanting to be anywhere else4) "Teflon Mind"; having a mind which doesn't accumulate things