Some people have a spec they enjoy playing, and really don't like the other specs. Some people like playing the tank spec.

One reason vengeance was put in was to allow people who play the tank spec because that's the one they enjoy to be able to do their dailies and whatever without taking one million years to kill anything.

I like the part where OP has not responded since he was proven wrong at page 13.

I like the part where you think everyone is glued to MMO-C and don't have a life unlike some of the posters here.

---------- Post added 2013-01-13 at 02:11 PM ----------

Originally Posted by howdydiddlydoo

Vengeance, for avoidance purposes, is based on a set swing timer (not related to the boss swing timer) with a prediction mechanic based on what it thinks the average white attack would be. It ignores special attacks and also places them on a 60 second timer.

The less avoidance you have, the faster more vengeance stacks.

Anyway, said my piece, there are lots of uneducated people posting in this forum. Cba explaining the avoidance mechanics time and time again to everyone individually.

THIS is also a major problem atm and will only increase as the time goes on. Some tanks realize this and get absolutely no avoidance, stacking dps stats inorder to get higher numbers. It's a major issue in lfr and lfg and even a couple of tanks in my guild are following this pattern. These tanks are a major pain in the ass to heal.

Tanks are no longer tanks, or shall I say some of the tanks, they are dps who can soak more damage then other dps speccs.

Originally Posted by Culnar

Sometimes people act like blizzard is their friend who betrayed them and now they're pissed!

Originally Posted by Vulpei

Actually the backlash from pandas is because alot of the people didn't grow up.

Different levels of avoidance DO change the pace at which vengaence stacks.

Unbelievable how many people don't understand there is a difference between avoidance and mitigation. I thought this was just basic common sense knowledge? Wow.

-- Avoidance will not count against you. Avoiding an attack will extend the current Vengeance stack back to 20 sec (as if you were hit again for the same DPS).
-- Blocks, absorbs, Stagger and Shield of the Righteous will also not count against you. The damage before these effects is used for the Vengeance calculation.
-- To reduce ramp up time, we bump you up to halfway to whatever your average Vengeance level would be based on each individual hit. Essentially, we skip the first 10 sec of ramping.
-- Tank damage in 5-player groups will decrease. We think this is a good chance because it is weird and demoralizing when tanks consistently top damage meters in dungeons.
-- Tank damage in 25-player groups will increase. We think this is a good change because it makes tank DPS as relevant in 25-player raids as it is in 10-player raids.

-- Whenever you get hit, Vengeance is added based on the damage of the hit before block, crit block, absorbs, stagger, and Shield of the Righteous.
-- Whenever you avoid an attack from a mob where MobLevel>=TankLevel-3, your existing Vengeance is extended to 20sec remaining.
-- Based on how hard you’re hit, we estimate how high Vengeance’s equilibrium point will be: DamageTaken / 1.5.
-- If you’re not at least half that high on Vengeance, we bump you up to that amount
-- The new Vengeance value is calculated as: 0.05 * DamageTaken + OldVengeance * OldVengeanceSecondsRemaining / 20
-- Frenzied Regeneration and Shield Barrier’s formulae have changed to:
Frenzied Regeneration at 60 rage: max(2*(AP-Agi*2), Sta*2.5)
Shield Barrier at 60 rage: max(2*(AP-Str*2), Sta*2.5)
-- Yes, these do mean that it uses your AP without base AP from Str/Agi (but does still slightly include AP from Agi/Str when you’ve got the 10% AP raid buff or other +%AP buffs).

---

Some of the details in regards to Vengeance.

Avoidance may work a bit differently, but it still would keep your Vengeance as high as the last time you got hit and reset the duration back to 20 seconds. The amount of attack power given by any attack, however, is still not reliant on gear, since it does not account for any damage reducing ability.

Besides, it is very counter-productive for a tank spec to wear dps gear to get more dps through Vengeance (does not mean that all the gear is useless for them, since some dps off-pieces tend to have some favourable stats that help tanks with mitigation and avoidance). Not only would the amount of gained attack power by Vengeance be non-existent when the mechanic only accounts for unmitigated damage, but it also would be suicidal, since the mechanic is the most powerful in raids and boss encounters, where dps gear would simply kill the raid if the tank wore it (outside of raids and bosses Vengeance simply does not stack high enough to make it worthwhile when compared to other dpsers). A dead tank is a dead raid (most of the time).

Plus, you would also lose health, which means the Vengeance cap will be smaller, so you still would not get an attack power increase leading to more dps, even if you did get a faster ramp up time (although the mechanic also helps with the ramp up time, already). This may not be a problem for tanks, right now, but we still are only in the first tier of the expansion. The cap could matter at some point when comparing dps gear with tank gear.

Some people have a spec they enjoy playing, and really don't like the other specs. Some people like playing the tank spec.

One reason vengeance was put in was to allow people who play the tank spec because that's the one they enjoy to be able to do their dailies and whatever without taking one million years to kill anything.

Umm, what? Don't tanks still take a million years to kill quest mobs? I watched a Blood DK doing his dailies (I was in stealth waiting for an opportune moment to strike!), and he didn't seem to being killing stuff very fast at all.

Some people have a spec they enjoy playing, and really don't like the other specs. Some people like playing the tank spec.

One reason vengeance was put in was to allow people who play the tank spec because that's the one they enjoy to be able to do their dailies and whatever without taking one million years to kill anything.

You really think that? That's pretty funny actually.

Then again, Blizzard could mean that when they say vengeance is meant for easily being able to keep threat from overgeared DPS just like Blizzard sold LFR as being meant for people who "don't have the time to raid" but pretty much now say it's meant for baddies, without actually using the word baddies.

---------- Post added 2013-01-13 at 09:59 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Waterisbest

I like the part where you think everyone is glued to MMO-C and don't have a life unlike some of the posters here.

---------- Post added 2013-01-13 at 02:11 PM ----------

THIS is also a major problem atm and will only increase as the time goes on. Some tanks realize this and get absolutely no avoidance, stacking dps stats inorder to get higher numbers. It's a major issue in lfr and lfg and even a couple of tanks in my guild are following this pattern. These tanks are a major pain in the ass to heal.

Tanks are no longer tanks, or shall I say some of the tanks, they are dps who can soak more damage then other dps speccs.

You must be an extremely casual guild? I don't know any "real" raiding guild that would keep a tank who thinks it's proper to stack dps stats over mit stats.

---------- Post added 2013-01-13 at 10:00 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Lemons

Umm, what? Don't tanks still take a million years to kill quest mobs? I watched a Blood DK doing his dailies (I was waiting for an opportune moment to strike!), and he didn't seem to being killing stuff very fast at all.

I play a prot warrior and I can definitely kill shit extremely fast, even faster when I grab 10-20 mobs and AOE them down.

THIS is also a major problem atm and will only increase as the time goes on. Some tanks realize this and get absolutely no avoidance, stacking dps stats inorder to get higher numbers. It's a major issue in lfr and lfg and even a couple of tanks in my guild are following this pattern. These tanks are a major pain in the ass to heal.

Tanks are no longer tanks, or shall I say some of the tanks, they are dps who can soak more damage then other dps speccs.

Just because tanks can do that does not mean that they should. A tank's job is to mitigate damage and by doing what you just described, they are terrible tanks.

---------- Post added 2013-01-13 at 04:07 PM ----------

Originally Posted by alturic

I play a prot warrior and I can definitely kill shit extremely fast, even faster when I grab 10-20 mobs and AOE them down.

The mechanic encourages taking a lot of damage, so massive AoEing seems to be the best niche tanks have when questing and farming. May not work as well when only getting hit by a few attackers, though.

Tank DPS is irrelevant. Tanks could do 10x their current DPS or could literally do 0 DPS (but still generate equal threat) and it would make no difference at all, since fights are balanced around the assumption tanks will be there. Using a different number of tanks makes almost no difference since Vengeance is totally dependent on damage taken - so if you single-tank a fight, that one tank will do massive DPS -- but they're still doing the "Tank Share" of DPS, which would just be split between 2 tanks if you 2 tanked the fight instead, and so on.

So if a tank does, say, 10 million damage on a fight, the boss just gains 10 million health. If tanks magically did 100 million damage, the boss would just have another 100 million health, and so on.

Vengeance is actually not really about DPS. It does two important things.

#1) It scales threat, and tank DPS contribution to fights with content. DPS invest 100% of their gear points into doing more DPS. Tanks invest a small part of their gear into doing the same, and the rest into staying alive. This is not readily apparent in the first tier (which we are still on now), but becomes more and more of a problem as time goes on. Without it, in tier 1, tanks may do 50% of a DPS' damage in tier 1, but then will do 40% in tier 2, 30% in tier 3, and so on. This obviously becomes a problem that then requires blizzard to continually make tweaks to be sure that threat stops being a problem and DPS don't have to stand at the start of the fight waiting for threat.

#2) More importantly than the above, it scales self-healing and shielding abilities. This one is much harder to do without AP that scales with content size. Without Vengeance, tank abilities would be massively overpowered in smaller content like 5 mans -- or would be massively underpowered in larger content like 25 man heroics. In addition, they would go down in relative strength as the expansion progressed, making them more powerful in tier 1 than in tier 3 as a percent of health (for example, a Monk's Expel Harm may be worth 20% of your health in tier 1, but would only be worth 5% of your health in tier 4).

So the design is to scale tanks into both content and tiers. People have tried to come up with ways to do it without increasing tank DPS at the same time, but there are always... difficulties with any solution that's not absurdly convoluted and confusing -- and as I said, tank DPS is pretty much a fixed quantity on any given fight. It's not like you can bring 6 tanks and magically have more DPS than taking 2 tanks and 4 DPS instead - in fact, you're always better off with the later for raid DPS.

So if a tank does, say, 10 million damage on a fight, the boss just gains 10 million health. If tanks magically did 100 million damage, the boss would just have another 100 million health, and so on.

Wait... what? So what you're saying is that *gasp* you think Blizzard really does have an internal "value" that tanks should be doing as far as DPS goes? I can assure you, with the way Blizzard is, that value is far below what any "real" (see: doesn't just stand there once he has initial threat hitting a few buttons every minute, which sadly a LOT of tanks do) tank would do.

Blizzard sold LFR as being meant for people who "don't have the time to raid" but pretty much now say it's meant for baddies, without actually using the word baddies.

I'm pretty sure it was because they'd rather keep the people subscribed to them that were leaving in droves, because the community thought it was a good idea to exclude players that weren't in raiding guilds or didn't have 6/7N by the second week (i.e. killing PuGs). Hence, LFR was created to keep the accountants happy (because there was a potential threat to removing raids as content, as a tiny percentage of players actually saw them).

Because the dps' job is to pull numbers. It's why that role is fun. You took taht fun and gave it to the tanks. Now the dps have to play second fiddle to tanks.

I thought playing the character, getting the most out of it, and playing with people you enjoy playing with was where the fun came in. What you are describing sounds more like being envious of someone with bigger numbers than you, which is pure e-peen complex. If you find the only fun you have in raiding is topping DPS meters then the problem is closer to home, I think.

Originally Posted by alturic

You must be an extremely casual guild? I don't know any "real" raiding guild that would keep a tank who thinks it's proper to stack dps stats over mit stats.

Depends on the class of tank. Protection Paladins actually value haste quite a lot for their tanking stats.

Wait... what? So what you're saying is that *gasp* you think Blizzard really does have an internal "value" that tanks should be doing as far as DPS goes? I can assure you, with the way Blizzard is, that value is far below what any "real" (see: doesn't just stand there once he has initial threat hitting a few buttons every minute, which sadly a LOT of tanks do) tank would do.

It doesn't have to be perfect. DPS have the same issue - you can say that if a boss has X HP then each DPS will need to do X-[tank share] / #DPS damage in before the enrage hits in order to kill the boss. However, what really happens is that some of the DPS do more damage than the others, healers contribute some damage when they're not healing, there's fight mechanics that force you to DPS other things besides the boss, etc... so it's not a perfect equation.

If the tank is doing low DPS, then you may have a stronger DPS player that can make up for it. If the tank is doing amazing DPS, you may compensate for one of your lower DPS players. But in the end, the "tank share" of the damage is a fudge factor they can work in. If tanks did significantly more or less DPS than they do now, they could easily raise or lower the health of bosses and things would not change noticeably.

My bigger point there was that the "tank share" of damage doesn't put tanks in "competition" with DPS. You can't bring extra tanks and do more DPS, even if tanks are top DPS on some fight due to the fight mechanics -- so it's not like a tank is going to take your raid spot.

Protectors of the Endless: First tank at place 255
Tsulong: First tanks at place 3 and 5, next one at 270 (makes me think that those two did... something)
Lei Shi: First tank at place 1, next one at 319...
Sha of Fear: First tank at wooping 917

...snip...

Nice work actually looking all that up.

Originally Posted by Shamanberry

Something that people are badly neglecting here:

Tank DPS is irrelevant. Tanks could do 10x their current DPS or could literally do 0 DPS (but still generate equal threat) and it would make no difference at all, since fights are balanced around the assumption tanks will be there. Using a different number of tanks makes almost no difference since Vengeance is totally dependent on damage taken - so if you single-tank a fight, that one tank will do massive DPS -- but they're still doing the "Tank Share" of DPS, which would just be split between 2 tanks if you 2 tanked the fight instead, and so on.

So if a tank does, say, 10 million damage on a fight, the boss just gains 10 million health. If tanks magically did 100 million damage, the boss would just have another 100 million health, and so on.

If the tank could do 100 million damage, and the rest of the dps just do 10 million each, the importance of a tank that squeeze as much dps as possible out is huge.
Not that i disagree with what you're saying.

Personally, as a blood DK, i find it fun to compete with dps. I did the same in cata, and that worked out pretty well there too. In dungeons.

I could deal with them removing vengeance, if they made tanking harder. Right now it's a way to be entertained as tank.
As OP i like to be good at my role, and if any braindead bat can do it(as they can now), i'm not feeling proud of it. So i go for doing enough dps on top of surviving, to feel i did a good job.

But that being said, we're still at first tier, and DPS will go significantly up in next tier, while tank-dps barely will move, so soon it will only be undergeared and bad people that have those problems.

Is there a way to set recount/skada to not include tanks? So when you look at it you only see the dps/heals? I think if you saw yourself on the top of the meters again you would feel better.

I wonder what happens when it's another DPS ahead on the meters! Anyone who was doing this to compete would always just assume the tank damage numbers are meaningless, unless they are far below the average and the tank is therefore doing something wrong. Tank numbers would simply be dismissed in any case where there is internal competition.

This to me suggests that this complaint isn't coming from the logic of being competitive, but rather simply not feeling as superspecial because someone has done more damage in a fight.