I can imagine 'Far Past' being taken as prehistoric anywhere up to Shakespearean times, so it may help if there was more indication of what it means.
'BC or earlier' may help if that isn't politically incorrect, but I can see how any definition would have people complaining or confused.

Rather than picking a specific number of years, say 500 or a thousand, I suggest its before people spoke modern English. So going back to Shakespeare wouldn't be far past. Going back to Chaucer might be. Going back to 1066, Norman Conquest, would be far past. If you stay in North America, any time before the settlement in Jamestown (1607) would be far past because you couldn't talk to anyone in English. If your character is fluent in Spanish (or Italian) its far past until Columbus visits. If you go to Japan, until its "discovery" by westerners or until it is "opened" by Peary its far past, if you can't talk to anyone. If your character is fluent in Japanese then its not far past until he can't talk to anyone on the islands. If aliens gift your hero with a translation device, I am pretty sure going back to the caveman era and visiting Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon tribes would make it Far Past even if you can speak with them. If you are on another planet or different dimension, like Cmsix, it might not be Far Past. Alternate Earths likely qualify if you go back far enough. Like "much sex" its up to the author to decide what qualifies.

I would say the writer/storyteller should use their best judgement. This label has a wide range of possibilities and as we have all seen. Someone will not like at least one or more of those.
I would say if unsure if a tag fits. Tags are not the end all. Sometimes you have to make the descriptive paragraph work for your story in more than one way.

One of the things I like about SOL is the consistency of story codes. On ASSTR, each author makes up their own codes. Good luck searching for something. Even if the ASSTR search engine worked it would be problematic.

From the numerous posts here, it's clear for 10 authors there'd be 15 definitions. You have chaos without standardization (or consistency for those against standards).

Fine, but regardless the writer needs to utilize all of the available tools. One of them is the Tag codes and the other is the paragraph which describes their story. The writer needs to use both to best describe their story. Both used together lessen the risks of bad surprises for readers.

Weird, the SOL story codes originated as hot codes for the ASST(alt.sex.stories.moderated) UseNet group that asstr was/is a Repository for, among others.

It doesn't matter what the origin is. In fact, I remember several lists of "standard" codes on ASSTR. The important thing is that, on SOL, there's only one list with definitions and those are the only story codes allowed.

If I remember right, "rape" on SOL used to have a definition of "self-explanatory." It's now correctly defined as "violent rape." Why's that important? I used to write a lot of non-consent stories, none having violent rape. My stories are more emotional than physical (blackmail, coercion, etc.). People used to tell me I forgot the rape code all the time (before the definition was changed).

If you are on another planet or different dimension, like Cmsix, it might not be Far Past. Alternate Earths likely qualify if you go back far enough. Like "much sex" its up to the author to decide what qualifies.

I suspect the difference is mainly: Far Past=Not a do-over!

Most do-over stories the characters visit the recent past (i.e. their own past), while the far past stories refer to anything in the distant pass. But Richard Shagrin's guidelines sound reasonable.

Fine, but regardless the writer needs to utilize all of the available tools. One of them is the Tag codes and the other is the paragraph which describes their story. The writer needs to use both to best describe their story. Both used together lessen the risks of bad surprises for readers.

Doc, you're comparing apples and oranges. The tags aren't generally used to picking stories, but to limit searches. But in the end, it's the story description which will ultimately decide whether someone reads a story or not, regardless of how they discovered it.

Yes, the story description should describe the story so readers can honestly evaluate it. Tossing in a random tag won't mean diddly to most casual readers, since tags are mostly a search function or, at best, a squick alert.

Weird, the SOL story codes originated as hot codes for the ASST(alt.sex.stories.moderated) UseNet group that asstr was/is a Repository for, among others.

Not so weird. On ASSTR, the Admins left tags entirely up to the authors, allowing them to invent whatever damn tags they wanted. SOL took a more authoritative view, insisting on a specific list of codes with very specific definitions so readers and authors know what the frig they mean.

As a result, the tags on ASSTR are only marginably searchable, but serve more as an addition to the story description (ex: "Do I want to investigate this story to see what it's about?"), while on SOL they're primarily a search tool.

On the contrary, that's the primary use of the tags for me. I find most stories by selecting tags in the Category Search.

Same here, if I'm doing a generic search, I'm looking for certain codes in the stories that turn up.

Now when I'm looking at the new or updated stories list, I'm looking at codes first, both for reasons to read, as well as avoid. Then I'll look at the description. The story codes are generally more informative on many matters.

That is why I said they were tools. One tool should work with the other tool to help a reader decide your story is the one to read. Some like me will concentrate on the descriptive paragraphs and others will concentrate on the codes while yet other readers will use both together.

No one method will be used by all readers constantly. Sometimes its a tossup as to which one will capture that reader's attention. All the methods have both advantages and disadvantages, but should be used together by the writer as a part of the whole.

Same here, if I'm doing a generic search, I'm looking for certain codes in the stories that turn up.

Now when I'm looking at the new or updated stories list, I'm looking at codes first, both for reasons to read, as well as avoid. Then I'll look at the description. The story codes are generally more informative on many matters.

That is the thing. First search or scan is based on either the codes or the description. Second search or scan to further refine selection available uses the other portion. Each portion is a tool but initial scan or search focuses on just one tool. Refining results requires going over the second tool area. Each tool in some ways has specific purposes but ideally they compliment each other.

I would suggest that "far past" would be anything more than second order living memory. First order living memory is there are people alive who remember it, second order living memory is there are people alive who remember being told about it by people who remember it.

I was told as a lad at my great grandfather's deathbed of this event from his childhood, would be second order living memory.

The American Civil war is falling out of second order living memory and into "far past".

As Plato presented it, the fall of Atlantis was fourth order living memory when he wrote it down, that is Plato, now an old man, is relating a story told him by an ancient temple priest when he was a child that he in turn had been told as a new acolyte at the temple by an old priest who had been told as a young acolyte by an old man sheltering in the temple who had escaped the destruction as a child.

We already have the code / tag Historical which covers stories set in historical periods that are fairly well documented, such as Elizabethan England etc. Thus, I would see the Far Past as being much further back in time, far enough back that little is actually known about the era from the available records.

I feel the period of the Roman Empire would be around the time of the cross over between Historical and Far Past, thus I'd put the cut at 500 AD as the cut, at the very latest, but would accept 500 BC or 1,000 BC as a suitable cut point too.

The way I see it is the Tags combined with the descriptive paragraph are the advertising tools of the writer/storyteller.

Both are meant to inform the potential reader and should be used together. They are the writer's ads for their story. One portion is the codes but the other portion is the descriptive paragraph. A writer should not get so locked into one that the other half of the ad fails.

edited to add: And as this topic proves. The available codes are growing and changing.

On the contrary, that's the primary use of the tags for me. I find most stories by selecting tags in the Category Search.

My point wasn't that tags aren't useful, but that they're primarily used during search operations, while on ASSTR, the tags--invented by the authors--are primarily used to identify the story contents. Unless you're searching on SOL, you're more likely to use the story description (on either the "New" or "Updated" stories list.

@Not_a_ID

Now when I'm looking at the new or updated stories list, I'm looking at codes first, both for reasons to read, as well as avoid. Then I'll look at the description. The story codes are generally more informative on many matters.

Again, you're using the tags as 'squick' protection, filtering stories before you encounter them, rather than evaluating each story. That's a fine strategy, but it's not the same as how the tags are used on ASSTR. But in the end, readers aren't likely to select a story on the tags alone. Instead, they'll use the tags to filter their squick stories, and then read the descriptions.

As Plato presented it, the fall of Atlantis was fourth order living memory when he wrote it down, that is Plato, now an old man, is relating a story told him by an ancient temple priest when he was a child that he in turn had been told as a new acolyte at the temple by an old priest who had been told as a young acolyte by an old man sheltering in the temple who had escaped the destruction as a child.

Plato never wrote diddly! Everything attributed to him were penned by his disciple, Aristotle, in order to earn prestige through his reflected glory. Thus the story would have been a 'fictionalized' fifth order story, at best.

I feel the period of the Roman Empire would be around the time of the cross over between Historical and Far Past, thus I'd put the cut at 500 AD as the cut, at the very latest, but would accept 500 BC or 1,000 BC as a suitable cut point too.

We already have the code / tag Historical which covers stories set in historical periods that are fairly well documented, such as Elizabethan England etc. Thus, I would see the Far Past as being much further back in time, far enough back that little is actually known about the era from the available records.

Actually, Far Past is lumped under Science Fiction with Time Travel, not under general story types with Historical. As such, I would see Far Past as implying time travel to the distant past.

A writer should not get so locked into one that the other half of the ad fails.

Correct, but the tags are the first sort option by many readers, and thus you should make sure they're correct and applicable, then write a good blurb for the story - and have it talk about the story, not why you wrote the story, unless is extremely relevant to it.

As such, I would see Far Past as implying time travel to the distant past.

Exactly, and that's why I don't see as something recent enough to qualify as historical. Also, Time Travel is a little elusive at times and can get stretched to help readers understand some things, but Far Past can be good for a story set in Ancient Greece, pre Roman times, as well as caveman days.

True, but many readers will first check the "Updated Stories" and "New Stories" lists. Then will do their searches. Both methods are equally important with different listing conditions. That is why I said tags are just part of the writer's tool kit. The tags and descriptive paragraph are the writer's advertisement of their individual story. The total effect depends on both parts of the ad.

Maybe we should argue (discuss) what historical means before we try to fix when the far past is. World War 2 is historical. World War 1 might be far past for some people, it started more than a hundred years ago. Maybe Napoleon who was defeated at Waterloo in 1815 is only historical, while Christopher Columbus (1492) is far past. Unless Lazeez is going to make these decisions which seems unlikely, authors will get to make them, both for Historical and for Far Past, and for almost all the other tags or what goes into which universe. Damsels tied to RR tracks with the villain, Snively Whiplash, gloating is not exactly a Damsel in Distress Universe story. Some stories with students naked in school may not fit into Karen Wagner's Naked in School Universe. I am starting to believe stories set in the 1960s are historical, particularly if the Beatles are playing music. It won't be too long now that stories set with warfare in Iraq or Afghanistan are going to be historical. Technically, anything that happened a moment ago or later is history, and most of the future stuff is SF. Only if its set in the eternal now is it just fiction. When Jane Austin wrote novels they were just fiction. Now they are Historical Fiction. Someday they may be the far past. If they get posted on Fine Stories, I wouldn't be surprised to see that tag.

I think Historical is a story set in a period prior to our great grandparents in which we have some good historical records of what life was like then and the basics of what happened. Basically, it means anything from around 120 years go to before we have decent records on what life was like in the era.

Edit to add: We can pick up history books and read a lot about the pre Roman times of the Greek city states, but we have almost nothing about the societies and civilizations around prior to them. Thus good history book accounts of the era would justify being historical, while little or no history book accounts of the era would be Far Past. That way there would be a little time creep in some parts of the world due to the lack of knowledge on some civilizations such as the Mayans and Incas, while some older civilization where we have good records on them would be Historical, such as some early Chinese civilization that can pre-date the Incas but we have good records on them.

Like anuses, everyone has an opinion. I like mine better than yours. We probably should look in a school history book and see what the last chapter covers. If its in a history book, its history. Its ok with me if your stories set in the period when your great grandparents lived does not have the historical tag. My grandfather on my mother's side lived through the San Francisco Earthquake. A story about that would in my opinion be historical.

Again, you're using the tags as 'squick' protection, filtering stories before you encounter them, rather than evaluating each story. That's a fine strategy, but it's not the same as how the tags are used on ASSTR. But in the end, readers aren't likely to select a story on the tags alone. Instead, they'll use the tags to filter their squick stories, and then read the descriptions.

For me personally, not so much on squick protection, more of a "will I find this of interest in an erotic context?" If it lacks codes I want to see, I might still consider it, but not for very long.

If it has codes I'm not enamored with(or the ones that do squick me) it gets weighed against the codes I want, and the description. I have done, and still do, read at least part way into stories with advertised known squick codes for me.

The 1970s counts as Modern History but for stories to get seen as historical they usually have to be set a few hundred years, or more, earlier than that.

I think some of this depends on the writer rather than any arbitrary line. I'm sure there are people on here who have first hand experience from wartime Vietnam in the 1960's and 70's. For them, it won't be a "historical" telling.

OTOH, if I were to write a story set in Vietnam during that period, it's either fictionalized fabrication(no research), or historical in nature as what I'm writing is based on research rather than personal experience with that time period.

Now where the line gets blurred is if I get some people who do have that experience to help review, revise, and refine my story. In that case it loses some of its historical nature, as research becomes less of a factor for that work.

Just in case nobody has checked, I updated the code's description after posting here to:

Far Past Time Travel or Far past setting (earlier than industrial revolution or before 1700)

To me, humans lived the same type of life from pre-history all the way to the beginning of the industrial revolution. Before that it was mostly agrarian societies and smaller cities. With the industrial revolution things changed and the transition to our current societies began.

To me, humans lived the same type of life from pre-history all the way to the beginning of the industrial revolution.

I don't disagree with your tag clarification. I do think there have been a number of changes to the way people live before the industrial revolution. How about before and after the discovery of fire (and how to make one). Stone age, Bronze age, Iron and Steel making. Agriculture and living in cities. Building nations states and empires. There were certain differences living in classical Rome than in caves.

Far Past Time Travel or Far past setting (earlier than industrial revolution or before 1700)

To me, humans lived the same type of life from pre-history all the way to the beginning of the industrial revolution. Before that it was mostly agrarian societies and smaller cities. With the industrial revolution things changed and the transition to our current societies began.

So, 1700 seems like a good dividing point for the tag.

That's logical and it clarifies the issue about which stories should be posted with the tag. Thanks.

@richardshagrin
Maybe we should have a "Between the invention of fire and the mid-Bronze age" tag especially for you. 'D

How about before and after the discovery of fire (and how to make one). Stone age, Bronze age, Iron and Steel making. Agriculture and living in cities. Building nations states and empires. There were certain differences living in classical Rome than in caves.

Before/after how to make fire while a substantial change for the time, isn't that substantial from the view of a modern era reader. Not much changes just from that.

Now, that being said, the ability to create fire probably did lead to next significant steps: Progression from stone tools to metals, as you needed to work a fire to create the metals. As well as the ability to fire clay to create more durable pottery.

So a stone age(and earlier)/metal working(bronze/iron/steel)/industrial split might be justified.

The issue with subdivision of the metal eras gets tricky, Sri Lanka was producing steel in quantity centuries before anyone else(c/o an early use of wind power to work their forges). For that matter, limited steel production had been going on from almost the start of the iron age.

Now, that being said, the ability to create fire probably did lead to next significant steps: Progression from stone tools to metals, as you needed to work a fire to create the metals. As well as the ability to fire clay to create more durable pottery.

So a stone age(and earlier)/metal working(bronze/iron/steel)/industrial split might be justified.

Unfortunately, the number of "Stone Age" and "Bronze Age" stories are fairly minimal, so tags for each are hardly justified, while a "Far Past"/Pre-Industrial tag would help promote a wide variety of stories.

...while a "Far Past"/Pre-Industrial tag would help promote a wide variety of stories.

Since 'Far Past' is still fairly recent, I could see where tags such as 'ancient times'(based on what is generally accepted as ancient history - Ancient Greek/Roman/etc.) and 'prehistoric'(self explanatory) could be added as well.

We are a hard group to satisfy. All we do is complain or suggest our way would be better. Me too. I would say I like to hear the sound of my voice, but there isn't any sound when I read what others post. I suppose making suggestions is what the Forum is all about. Some of them could be phrased a little more politely. I don't want to offend anyone, sometimes I type faster than I think. I don't suppose any of you out there have that problem.

That is where the writer could include as a part of the other half of the ad a phrase stating for example "Stone Age" or any other phrase which will designate a particular time period. The codes are always growing but regardless its only half of the tools to get a story read. It actually takes both halves working together with the descriptive paragraph giving details the codes will never give or don't have available at the time its originally posted. Sure a new code might and probably will become available in the future. But the description will work in the meantime to fill in the details.

edited to add: The codes may get the story considered for reading. Then the title and description kicks in to finalize the reading choice. The current codes at the time of posting or writing might leave a little to be desired. So utilize the other parts to increase the chance that a story will be selected to read.

The codes are always growing but regardless its only half of the tools to get a story read. It actually takes both halves working together with the descriptive paragraph giving details the codes will never give or don't have available at the time its originally posted. Sure a new code might and probably will become available in the future. But the description will work in the meantime to fill in the details.

The codes may get the story considered for reading. Then the title and description kicks in to finalize the reading choice. The current codes at the time of posting or writing might leave a little to be desired. So utilize the other parts to increase the chance that a story will be selected to read.

That was my point. Initially, the discussion about the codes was to clarify when to use it, but the discussion quickly degenerated into picking the gift to us apart as not being 'extensive' enough.

I say, it's merely a single tool, like a torque wrench. You don't use it for every situation, as there are plenty of other tools, and you don't bitch about how it won't hammer nails. Instead you just shut up, put it in your tool belt and only pull it out when a particular story needs it.

Personally, I think we'd all do much better if we used a "Fat Past" tag, writing stories about how fat everyone used to be, and how everyone is healthy, fit and sexy now that they're older. I think those stories would be much more satisfying for most of our readers!

In previous threads, some contributors have expressed distaste for stories with 'too many' tags. Personally I like to keep my tag usage on the minimalistic side to keep certain story twists a surprise.

Personally, I think we'd all do much better if we used a "Fat Past" tag, writing stories about how fat everyone used to be, and how everyone is healthy, fit and sexy now that they're older.

Prior to the 20th Century, the only people who managed to get fat were typically the wealthy and well off. Being fat actually was a status symbol, if you watch old movies from the 1950's and earlier, it isn't uncommon to hear a character(typically fat themselves, but anyhow) bring that up.

For that matter, the reason for federal support of a school lunch program was because the Department of Defense was complaining about many recruits/draftees being underweight and showing signs of malnourishment. So thus a school lunch program was launched to "fatten up" the younger population and now they're trying to do the reverse with it now.

Unfortunately, the number of "Stone Age" and "Bronze Age" stories are fairly minimal, so tags for each are hardly justified, while a "Far Past"/Pre-Industrial tag would help promote a wide variety of stories.

Which is why I said might be justified. I'm not aware of many that go for the various metal ages, until you get near the industrial revolution, or more particularly, the Victorian period. Otherwise most stories here seem to go for stone age, or even earlier.

Understandable and accepted at least by me. That is why I keep stressing the fact that a storyteller has to use all the available tools. And your usage works for you. Main thing is you don't try and lie about your usage. I think it really shows respect for the reader. Those who lie about it tend to lose readers in a hurry I think. Honesty will at least get their respect even if something happens they hate.

In previous threads, some contributors have expressed distaste for stories with 'too many' tags. Personally I like to keep my tag usage on the minimalistic side to keep certain story twists a surprise.

Like with everything else, there are limits. Listing a new sexual kink with each new chapter is a recipe for disaster--as the story quickly becomes overwhelming and it quickly loses focus. However, on the flip side, if you do what you're suggesting, then readers find themselves in a story they'd refuse to read otherwise, simply because the author wants to 'surprise' everyone.

That's why I keep emphasizing, tags are primarily 'squick alerts'. Many people search out stories with specific tags, but many also avoid handing out 1-bombs because they never see the things that piss them off that much.

The key isn't to limit the tags, it's to keep story creep out of your books!

I don't know, "Fred" is a personal squick. If an author isn't interested enough to come up with a better name than Fred (hell, even "John" makes a better character name), then why should I even read the story.

I don't mind people named Fred, but the name "Fred" is like "Bubba", it's a stereotypical name designed to instantly convey who someone is without having to develop the character.

Having said that, bring on all the personal attacks by everyone named Fred in the SOL kingdom!

I've had reader complaints about tagged content, so that doesn't work nearly as well as you think it does.

The idea isn't that you can coral hatred, only that you make the attempt to control it. Racists be racists and haters gotta hate. That's why the U.S. has the Republican party, it's the only acceptable home for racist skinheads left (even those who paste hair on their heads).

I have noticed that sometimes a story changes as its posted. That is not common with writers who only post completed stories. It can and has happened when a writer posts as they write with or without having editors go over it. Those I can see and understand when they have to add or change codes in the middle of a story.

In my case, it was content I had planed on and coded for with chapter 1.

It happens I figure a story is like r/l at times. I plan one route to go and visit family in Alabama. Some times I actually managed to go that route. Other times I wind up going another way or not being able to go.

Edited to add: That is why I said "Honesty" is the key factor. A lie tends to bite you in the ass sooner or later.

I have noticed that sometimes a story changes as its posted. That is not common with writers who only post completed stories. It can and has happened when a writer posts as they write with or without having editors go over it. Those I can see and understand when they have to add or change codes in the middle of a story.

Often that happens when the author suffers depression or becomes ill and the story takes a depressing turn, which affects the entire feeling of the story.

I think its more like your Catalyst series for example. You originally planned it for a 3 volume series I believe. But it had to be told in another manner taking 6 volumes instead. It took its own route to tell its story even if you were the one who had to write it.

I don't know, "Fred" is a personal squick. If an author isn't interested enough to come up with a better name than Fred (hell, even "John" makes a better character name), then why should I even read the story.

Now there's a man who believes in having lots of sex. I remember a couple of years ago running across a story where he had a new baby. Supposedly he was in his 80's. I forget how old the mother was. I can't remember the article or where it was posted.

Red shirts are sometimes athletes who preserve their eligibility by practicing but not playing in games for a season. Or sometimes quarterbacks or other fragile players wear red shirts and aren't supposed to be tackled in practice.

Now there's a man who believes in having lots of sex. I remember a couple of years ago running across a story where he had a new baby. Supposedly he was in his 80's. I forget how old the mother was. I can't remember the article or where it was posted.

According to Wikipedia "In early 1974, he was introduced to 17-year-old fan Wende Braunberger at a theatre performance. They were married that same year, when they were 54 and 18, on October 12, 1974. Star Trek actor William Campbell served as best man. Doohan and Braunberger had three children: Eric, Thomas, and Sarah in 2000, around his 80th birthday"
The reference quoted was an Associated Press (AP) link, which is no longer functioning. The feature used has been closed by AP.

Heck its like a customer for a custom made twin holster rig. His reasoning for competing in the contests was as follows: "I want to get good enough, I don't have to shoot." Probably like a lot of military among others around the world.