Did Clinton miss opportunity by declining Fox News debate?

This is a rush transcript from "The Five," May 24, 2016. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

ERIC BOLLING, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone. On this Election Day, I'm Eric Bolling along with Kimberly Guilfoyle, Juan Williams, Dana Perino and Greg Gutfeld. It's 5 o'clock in New York City, 2:00 p.m. in Washington state and this is "The Five."

Well it's Election Day in Washington on the republican side, but the real political battle going on right now is on the democratic side; more on that in a moment. Washington's primary today is different from others. Voters have either mailed in their ballots or have until 11:00 p.m. eastern to drop them off at collection sites statewide, 44 delegates are at stake in the GOP primary. For democrats, none, Washington's Democratic Party relies instead on the outcome of the caucuses held in March, which Bernie Sanders won. Sanders is fired up today because Hillary Clinton has broken her agreement to debate him one last time before California votes on June 7th. She declined Fox News' invitation last night in order to quote, "Compete hard in the remaining primary states." Fox News issued a statement saying, quote, "We're disappointed, especially given that the race is still contested and she had previously agreed to a final debate before the California primary." Now Bernie Sanders says her refusal is downright insulting.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS, DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I was disturbed but not surprised to hear a few hours ago that Secretary Clinton has backed out of the debate.

CROWD: Boo.

SANDERS: I think it is a little bit insulting to the people of California, our largest state.

(APPLAUSE)

SANDERS: That she is not prepared to have a discussion with me about how she will help the California's address the major crisis that we face.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLLING: And in 2008, Hillary was outraged when then Senator Obama wouldn't debate her a final time. Listen very closely to what she said in this clip.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON, DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This is the most important job in the world. It's the toughest job in the world. You should be willing to campaign for every vote. You should be willing to debate anytime, anywhere. I think it's, it's an interesting juxtaposition where we find ourselves. And, you know, I have been willing to do all of that, during the entire process.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLLING: Hmm. That was eight. That was eight years ago. Things change.

DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: Well, certainly. I think here's the thing for her team, you know yesterday we were talking about the fact that she, when she says she's going to be the nominee based on the math, she's going to be the nominee. So I think that her team has a point when they say, "Why would we debate, because it's not with worth it. We don't need the risk." But -- I actually take the opposite attack, because she's going to be the nominee, you can take the risk and the risk, without risk there's no reward. So I think she could have taken it -- taken him on to a bigger, broader audience and probably gotten a pretty big bump out of it if she does agree to do the Fox News debate. I wish she would have said yes.

BOLLING: Greg, good tactic, good strategy, hiding behind the last few delegates?

GREG GUTFELD, CO-HOST: Very rude, very rude to Fox News, to decline an invitation without even coming up with an excuse, like I have to hem my pantsuit or I need to go through Vincent Foster's trash. At least have something that you can rely on. I mean like, she didn't even bother, they didn't even give her the date and she declined. By the way, she's smart. Her slogan, you know, her slogan is the less you see of me, the better, because everybody, when they hear her talk, they go like this. And Trump's secret weapon really is Hillary. You know, she is the contrast that sells Trump. So the more you see of her, the better Trump looks.

BOLLING: What do you say, KG?

KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE, CO-HOST: Yeah. I mean, I'm disappointed, because you know, it seems cowardly to me. You should be able to stand up to anybody. You want to stand up to world leader? You can't stand up to a socialist from Vermont? I mean, what's wrong with you? Get up there, make your case and show people that you really want to earn it that they should choose you over Bernie Sanders. And for those independent women and other people out there, like come on. Like pull it together. Earn the vote. Don't miss an opportunity, especially with an audience of that scale, and the skill of our moderators quite frankly, to answer good questions, prove yourself, show us you're worthy of being commander-in-chief and it's not too late to dry clean your best pantsuit and change your mind.

GUTFELD: She should have said she had an event with veterans.

BOLLING: Hmm.

(LAUGHTER)

GUILFOYLE: And then --

BOLLING: But Juan --

GUILFOYLE: Didn't have one?

GUTFELD: Yes.

(LAUGHTER)

BOLLING: Does this also open up Bernie Sanders, give him another thing, another shot at Hillary Clinton? She's afraid of me. She doesn't want to do this.

JUAN WILLIAMS, CO-HOST: Come on. Who are you talking about? She's beating this guy up from one coast to the other. So I mean --

BOLLING: So why won't she debate him?

WILLIAMS: Well that's the price. I mean, obviously, I don't think it's about Bernie Sanders, because I don't think that's the issue. She has the nomination as we all know, in hand.

BOLLING: Is it about Fox?

WILLIAMS: So I -- partly, it's about Fox. And I don't think that was a smart decision, though. But I think the real problem here is that she's right now focused on Donald Trump, not Bernie Sanders. And I think this was an opening that would give her an opportunity to speak to the general election audience, to speak to people in a way, as Kimberly was saying, facing strong general-election type questions from --

GUILFOYLE: Yes.

WILLIAMS: From Fox commentators and Fox moderators, that I think, as I said, I thought the ratings would have been out of the roof. She would have got lots of attention. I disagree with Greg. I don't think people like her less the more they see of her. I do think that there's strong contrast between Donald Trump who just goes everywhere in the media, gets tons of free media, versus Hillary Clinton, who I think is more strategic and considerate, you know, and trying to figure out what's to her advantage. Donald Trump just goes out there and does it. And he gets loved for the fact that he's so unleashed.

PERINO: The other reason I thought that she would do it is because when Bret Baier did the town hall with her, maybe two and a half months ago, she did very well out of that and the audience responded to it. She and Bret seemed to have a good rapport. So I think it was a missed opportunity on their part.

WILLIAMS: Right. As I agree.

BOLLING: Let me play devil's advocate a little bit. I would loved to seen the two. Loved to seen the debate, loved to have it here. I love to see our moderators ask the questions that would have been fantastic. However, I'm an athlete. I'm a sports guy. Juan, you've got the playoffs locked up. Are you going to choose to play one more game with your starting quarterback or not?

WILLIAMS: No, and that's why you see most of the time, what you see is people in the lead as Obama did know with Hillary, as you just showed us. They say, no, you know, it's over, stop. But again, I think this is such a unique contest. And you know in sports, one of the reasons that people are leery of those situations, they say, oh, your quarterback could get hurt.

BOLLING: Or you gonna get hurt -- yeah.

WILLIAMS: Right, right. But on the other hand --

PERINO: She's not gonna get hurt.

WILLIAMS: Guess what?

BOLLING: No?

WILLIAMS: You can get, you can get stale. You can get stale by not playing .

BOLLING: No, but you can get hurt --

WILLIAMS: . and then you go into the game.

BOLLING: And you get hurt by having --

WILLIAMS: And get somebody to (inaudible).

BOLLING: By Megyn and Bret, let's presumably asking the questions that they weren't going to get asked by the other network.

GUILFOYLE: Yeah.

WILLIAMS: That's what I'm saying.

BOLLING: Right, right.

WILLIAMS: I think it would have been (inaudible).

BOLLING: Well, that would have been good to see her try to feel those questions. I loved to seen it.

PERINO: I think it would have been good for her to be able to stop the glorification of Bernie Sanders. This guy is a socialist, right? She could have painted the picture, like let's go to the tape. Run some video of Venezuela, whatever she, and she could have been creative and really hit it out of the park.

GUTFELD: That's the thing. Nothing new would have happened. You think Bernie would have brought up the e-mails? No. Wouldn't he have brought up Benghazi? No. He would have brought anything new. What's the difference between them at this point? She can't call him out for being a socialist. He's pulled her to the left of Hugo Chavez. They --

GUILFOYLE: Right.

GUTFELD: All they would do there is sit there and agree with each other.

GUILFOYLE: But she -- she's just putting off the inevitable, though. She will have to face these questions and it's going to come at her like a freight train. Is she going to be like ready? She's got to take the field too, right, to do some like practice. And so far she hasn't had much. And she hasn't done very well. I don't think she can afford to miss an opportunity like this, because where as Donald Trump took down 16, boom, boom, boom, she still hasn't taken down this guy. And that's pretty sad, because this was supposed to be .

GUTFELD: She took down O'Malley.

GUILFOYLE: . like the Manchurian candidate. Oh, Martin O'Malley, rest in peace, but she can't take down this guy.

BOLLING: Stay right there KG. Donald Trump has been overtaking Hillary Clinton in some new general election polls and her allies in the mainstream media blame Bernie.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC "HARDBALL WITH CHRIS MATTHEWS" HOST: The question Hillary Clinton faces this late spring is, what does she have to do to fight her way out of this two-front war with Trump and Bernie, because until she does, it's hard to see how she begins the slow, necessary climb in personal popularity that would get her to victory, come November.

JOHN HEILEMANN, BLOOMBERG POLITICS CO-MANAGING EDITOR: He is hurting her now, not just broadly with the electorate, but hurting her with the members in the board to his -- of his own party members where she was just popular six months ago. Now, she's appreciably less popular with democrats.

JOEL BENENSON, CHIEF STRATEGIST FOR HILLARY CLINTON: If Senator Sanders going to stop delivering destructive attacks that hurt democrats that we need to up and down the ticket. Is he going to really try to support the party?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLLING: However, Bernie Sanders says he's helping democrats by staying in the race.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAULA FARIS, "THE VIEW" CO-HOST: Do you concede that you are harming the party by staying in this? You just said it's an uphill battle.

SANDERS: No.

FARIS: You don't --

SANDERS: Absolutely not. I don't think I'm harming the Democratic Party. I think I'm invigorating American democracy and invigorating the Democratic Party. What, you know, the establishment, obviously, doesn't like it. They would like us to go away.

FARIS: Yeah.

SANDERS: And do things in the same old same old. But you know what; the American people are tired on the republican side, on the democratic side, of establishment politics.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLLING: OK, KG, is he hurting or helping the party?

GUILFOYLE: No, he isn't. Why doesn't she be a better candidate? My, gosh, is everyone that worried about her? She's that fragile that she can't take on this Venezuelan socialism-loving guy and like to have him go up against her? I mean, this is really kind of a sad state of affairs, isn't it? She supposed to be the most qualified person with the biggest resume, you know, in this whole race. Yet, she's not, she's cowering. It seems like she only wants to be commander-in-chief of the people that like her. That she's not trying to reach out to all Americans to earn their vote, and their respect, and their trust, and their vote. That's what bothers me about this. It's just ridiculous.

BOLLING: Juanito, it feels like the longer Bernie Sanders stays in and he's been in this whole since the beginning. He highlights this insider or outsider. The establishment on an establishment situation on the democrat side, the way it's been bifurcated on the republican side. I would say all power, stay in it, Bernie, because you are bifurcating the democrats, too. You're splitting that vote.

WILLIAMS: You mean, you're saying that as a republican?

BOLLING: As a republican.

WILLIAMS: Oh yeah. I understand that.

BOLLING: I think there's a group of people .

WILLIAMS: Oh yeah.

BOLLING: . who could never vote; the establishment.

WILLIAMS: Oh that's --

BOLLING: They can never vote.

(CROSSTALK)

BOLLING: Who may go to Donald Trump, because --

WILLIAMS: This will go away, but what's going on is really interesting to me.

BOLLING: What's going away?

WILLIAMS: What?

BOLLING: What will go away?

GUILFOYLE: I don't think so.

WILLIAMS: Oh, the people say, I'm a democrat, but I'm not going to vote for Hillary. What we've seen historically is that those people come around as you approach November. They -- that's just inevitable. But what is going on now is so interesting to me is that Bernie Sanders believes that in these last two weeks before California, he plans to put, you know metal -- pedal to the metal because he's trying to maximize his ability to influence Hillary Clinton, which is what Greg was talking about. As Greg says, from his perspective, he's pushed Hillary far to the left. Today, Gerald Seib "The Wall Street Journal" was talking about how in fact, because of Bernie Sanders, Hillary can't move to the center, which is what her natural constituency would be. That she would be appealing as a moderate democrat. Instead, she's having to play footsy with Bernie. That's why you hear democrats saying Bernie is hurting Hillary at this juncture. Now the thing is I think Hillary needs to step up. I don't think that she can just be dismissive of Bernie. She wants Bernie's folks to vote for her.

BOLLING: Can I point out also, Dana, that she can't be dismissive of him, because the platform is going to be put together by Bernie Sanders' people, Hillary Clinton people and Debbie Wasserman Schultz people. He's going to have a big say in the platform.

PERINO: So I would say even beyond this election cycle, I think what Bernie Sanders is doing to the republican -- to the Democratic Party is much broader and deeper in the long run. And I think it will make the democrats much harder to elect on a national level in the next few election cycles, because it is so far left in the country is not there. She's not there. But she's going to have to deal with them.

BOLLING: Do you think they will also trickle down to the lower, to the down-ticket item -- down-ticket races as well? Like a lot of people think will happen on the republican side?

PERINO: I think that -- well, I'm not sure. I think one thing that could happen is that both republicans and democrats that are running down-ticket from both of the nominees, because that race, the presidential will be so close, neck and neck all the way that those candidates and their state legislatures or in the House Senate seats will be able to localize their races and not make them a big national referendum for a while. Maybe up until October, and that's probably best for republicans.

BOLLING: OK, Mr. Gutfeld, last thought on whether Bernie is doing the party any good or bad?

GUTFELD: I think Bernie has got to be aware and worried that when your adversaries are telling you you're doing a great job --

(LAUGHTER)

PERINO: Yeah.

GUTFELD: You're in trouble. If Eric is saying you're helping the party, you're not helping the party. You know what --

BOLLING: Stand there Bernie. Stand there.

GUTFELD: Yeah, exactly.

(LAUGHTER)

GUTFELD: We're conservatives. Hillary is the flu and Bernie is like a really bad flu shot. You know, it deals with Hillary, but it also makes you feel kind of sick.

BOLLING: All right. We'll leave it right there. The battle between Hillary and the Donald heating up with brand-new attack ads coming up, Donald Trump's controversial new add featuring some of Bill's former sexual assault accusers. And a programming note before we go, we've got a midnight show.

GUILFOYLE: Excellent choice. All right, it's getting tense on the campaign trail, as both Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump release new attack ads, here's Clinton's where she tries to tie Trump to the housing market meltdown.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is an economy that can't find the bottom of bad news.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ten years and saving completely gone -- vanished.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The biggest crash of household wealth that we've ever had in the United States.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I sort of hope that happens, because then people like me would go in and buy. If there is a bubble burst, as they call it, you know, you could make a lot of money.

KATHLEEN WILLEY, FORMER WHITE HOUSE VOLUNTEER AIDE: No woman should be subjected to it. It was an assault.

JUANITA BROADDRICK, FORMER NURSING HOME ADMINISTRATOR: He starts to bite my top lip, and I try to pull away from him.

(LAUGHTER)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUILFOYLE: Bill O'Reilly has some reservations about the ad. He told Trump last night, he thought it was tawdry and here was Trump's response.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I'm only responding to what they do, they've been nasty. She's been very nasty, and I said, I'd like it to be on policy, Bill. I don't like doing that, but I have no choice. When she hits me on things, I just have no choice, so you have to do it. It's unfair and you know they're dirty players, they've been dirty players historically, and I have to fight back with the way I have to fight back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUILFOYLE: I can relate to that, Greg, when you hit me, I hit you harder.

GUTFELD: Yeah.

GUILFOYLE: Your choice.

GUTFELD: I actually hit you, so you could hit me harder. Just something we do for fun on the weekends.

GUILFOYLE: There's counseling for that.

GUTFELD: Look, this is --

(LAUGHTER)

GUTFELD: I wouldn't counsel my way out of that one.

GUILFOYLE: No.

GUTFELD: You know we have to retire the term negative campaigning, because all the campaign is negative. It's now redundant. And right now we're seeing the competition between who is less repugnant. I mean, you got, it's like everybody, come November is going to be like walking into a bus station restroom, holding their nose while doing their business, because it's going to get so ugly. I mean this is just starting.

WILLIAMS: Yeah, that's a good --

GUTFELD: This is just starting. How much lower can you go if you're that low?

(CROSSTALK)

GUTFELD: By the way, she's wrong on that -- so what if he said he could make money off it? It was the liberals' fault for that whole --

BOLLING: Yeah.

GUTFELD: Implosion.

BOLLING: Yeah, that --

GUILFOYLE: yeah, from --

BOLLING: Can I --

GUILFOYLE: That's a businessman said moving in to take advantage of an opportunity.

BOLLING: I don't know who's putting that -- who put that ad together. Hopefully it wasn't a campaign. Now I hope it was a Super PAC, because that was a terrible idea. Highlight the fact that your husband created the housing bubble that you just put in that, in that ad. They're called no-no loans. No job, no income, no problem, we give you a loan, and that was a Bill Clinton, Chris Dodd, Barney Frank idea to give people with low income homes in America, the American dream. And they threw out all these loans while inflated there in late '90s, early '90s, late '90's, and it burst into 2007-2008. You can, you can literally find the paper trail or whatever, the crumbs that --

GUTFELD: The Community Reinvestment Act.

BOLLING: Yeah, Community Reinvestment right back to the Clinton presidency. So why would you be doing that? That's insane. On the other hand, Donald Trump going right at it, basically telling her, this is going to get ugly. It's going to get big, bad and ugly fast. So -- I think that was a trial balloon to see how it went over. I don't know, I think he's going to go after that very, very negatively.

GUILFOYLE: It pop somewhere over Central Park. All right, so Dana, what do you make of the point where he said listen, she hit me, I had no choice. She's been very nasty to me. He has said that before when talking about --

PERINO: I guess he's talking about the campaign hitting him on his treatment of women, and so then the response is to go after what Bill Clinton had done. I actually think that there is a point to be made. It's always bothered me how they treated the women, especially Monica Lewinsky, who was a young woman in a position of actually quite vulnerable and they made it her fault. I never, ever could understand how the Clintons felt like they could get away with that. And I know it's digging up a long ago, issues and from the past. But I think on this case, Hillary Clinton is going to have to answer that at some point. I mean, it's just going to be like a scab that you pick over and over again. I don't know how they actually put it behind them. On the ad about the housing policy which -- that is a policy he's going to have to answer. All the things that you said, Eric, was absolutely true. But democrats definitely believe that it was Wall Street and big financial people that drove people .

WILLIAMS: Oh yeah.

PERINO: . into more poverty and of the income inequality got worse after the recession because of greedy people like that.

WILLIAMS: You know I just don't understand you on this one, Eric, because it seems to me it's clearly tawdry and raising all kinds of sexual issues and innuendo. Bill Clinton is not running for president, Hillary Clinton is running. So if you want to make the charge that she enabled or defamed Bill Clinton --

GUILFOYLE: She's the part of it.

WILLIAMS: But you're going after Bill Clinton.

BOLLING: She's the one --

WILLIAMS: No, let me finish.

(CROSSTALK)

BOLLING: . addressed that though --

WILLIAMS: Oh, go ahead.

BOLLING: She's the one who said .

WILLIAMS: Oh my, gosh.

BOLLING: . Bill Clinton will run the economy for me.

WILLIAMS: That has nothing to do with the economy. This has to do with sexual behavior, OK?

PERINO: She's twinned with him. I mean, that's the problem.

WILLIAMS: Oh, I think that's not true. And I think lots of people --

GUTFELD: That will make yourself grow, Juan.

WILLIAMS: What did you say?

GUTFELD: Nevermind.

WILLIAMS: OK. Sorry, my mistake. But I'm just going to say, I think lots of people on the other hand say, hey, you know what, their family was able to stay together. A lot of people admire the fact that she put up with his nonsense .

GUILFOYLE: Oh --

WILLIAMS: And stayed with her husband. But let me just finish this point to you. On the mortgage stuff, I don't understand how you can defend this. This is Wall Street; this is a big-money guys who make money .

BOLLING: No.

WILLIAMS: . by offering subprime loans.

BOLLING: No, no.

WILLIAMS: And it's not only democrats, republicans. In the Bush administration they were pushing .

BOLLING: The Community Reinvestment Act .

WILLIAMS: . to get more people --

BOLLING: . allowed people without income, without --

WILLIAMS: I'm telling -- no.

BOLLING: Who are not qualified for loans .

WILLIAMS: This is not --

BOLLING: . to get loans, to buy homes --

WILLIAMS: You try to make everything .

BOLLING: Juan --

WILLIAMS: . purely polarized.

BOLLING: Juan, they'll buy four or five homes without a job.

WILLIAMS: I'm telling you .

BOLLING: That was all democrats.

WILLIAMS: . republicans and democrats believed in home ownership as a way to help people become more successful in life.

(CROSSTALK)

PERINO: Both things are true.

GUTFELD: Both things are true, yes.

WILLIAMS: That's what I'm saying.

GUILFOYLE: It's true.

WILLIAMS: So it's not a political divide issue that leads crumbs back to --

BOLLING: No, but --

GUILFOYLE: Yes.

GUTFELD: But what if there was a problem?

BOLLING: The Clinton administration pushed the regulation --

WILLIAMS: Oh, please.

BOLLING: The one time there was anti-regulation.

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS: I don't see. You don't see any sin by republicans.

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS: But let me just tell you .

BOLLING: It's all about that.

WILLIAMS: . there is no question that Donald Trump was all about selling subprime mortgages to make money as Americans were suffering.

BOLLING: Legally, legally.

WILLIAMS: Oh, yeah.

GUILFOYLE: He's a businessman doing that at the time, because --

WILLIAMS: Yeah, sure.

GUILFOYLE: Hold on, but to say that you can separate Hillary Clinton from Bill Clinton .

WILLIAMS: Yes.

GUILFOYLE: . they were together as a team and not. It's like a tumor that's metastasized.

WILLIAMS: I'm sorry, it's not true.

GUILFOYLE: Yes, it was. She was very much a part of that strategy and how they handled the women that were making these accusations.

WILLIAMS: I just --

GUILFOYLE: And not just one, but multiple. And it does matter, because she said that she's the defender and the champion of women that he is as to very --

WILLIAMS: Every wife then, every wife who has a scurrilous husband is responsible?

GUILFOYLE: That's not what you said.

PERINO: No, but not every wife would trash the women.

GUILFOYLE: That's not what you said.

WILLIAMS: Oh my, gosh.

GUTFELD: Some would.

(LAUGHTER)

GUTFELD: I mean --

(CROSSTALK)

GUTFELD: A lot of women would trash them.

GUILFOYLE: OK, we got to go, (inaudible).

(LAUGHTER)

GUILFOYLE: Go. Couldn't get any more outrageous, the secretary of the VA doesn't think it's a big deal that our vets have to wait in long lines for their health care, his stunning remarks, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PERINO: Dozens of our veterans have died while waiting for medical care in this country. When the scandal broke in 2014, the last VA secretary, Eric Ken Shinseki resigned. President Obama that appointed Bob McDonald to help fix the delays, but yesterday, much to everyone surprise, the secretary defended them with an astounding comparison.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT MCDONALD, SECRETARY OF VETERANS AFFAIR: The days to an appointment are really not what we should be measuring. What we should be measure is the veterans' satisfaction. I mean, what really counts is how does the veteran feel about their encounter with the VA? When you go to Disney, do they measure the number of hours you wait in line or the number, you know, what's important? What's important is what your satisfaction with the experience.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PERINO: Many lawmakers and groups like concerned veterans for America have called on McDonald to apologize, and he had a chance to do that this morning, but he didn't.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCDONALD: Wait times are important, but they're not the only measure of veteran experience. And that's what's what veterans are telling us, you know, we've talked to a lot of veterans. It's important. And if I was misunderstood or if I said the wrong thing, I'm glad that I have an opportunity to correct it. I'm only focused on one thing, and that's better caring for veterans. That's my job, that's why I'm here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PERINO: So Greg, not a great comparison, making it to Disneyland. But...

GUTFELD: Yes. He made a huge mistake. And I -- no one is disputing the actual hard work of the doctors and the people who work there. What they are actually disputing is the wait times. So what he was -- he was actually defending the wait times by relating them to the service that you get. People died during the wait times. The wait times are evil.

Analogies can be very dangerous if you don't know what you're doing. And he should have said something like the V.A. services are worth it, like it's worth the wait, like the next "Ghostbusters" film or the iPhone 7.

GUILFOYLE: Maybe that's not a good idea.

GUTFELD: My point is, like, don't do it.

GUILFOYLE: Right.

GUTFELD: Just don't do it.

GUILFOYLE: Unless you're Greg Gutfeld.

GUTFELD: Yes, yes, yes. Even I wouldn't do it.

BOLLING: You know, we talk a lot about making mistakes, making errors in judgment on saying things and we have to sometimes apologize. And I never, ever, ever say someone should be fired or quit because of something they say because it's offensive to a group of people.

This guy is, as Greg points out, it was a terrible analogy. That's not the problem. The problem is he just doesn't understand what the problem at the V.A. is.

GUTFELD: Right. Yes.

BOLLING: It's clear, he's made it clear to the world...

GUILFOYLE: The long waits.

BOLLING: ... that he's running the V.A. and he has no idea what he's supposed to be fixing.

PERINO: Right.

BOLLING: That's why I think Mr. McDonald should step down. Should leave. Not because of what he said, because the fact that he's exposing that he has no idea of the problem, and we've all noted the hundreds, if not thousands, of veterans who died waiting for care, and there was one big one in Phoenix, Arizona.

GUILFOYLE: Twenty-one months.

BOLLING: Yes, where literally hundreds of thousands of people were dying waiting for -- to be seen for the first time. So it's not what you said; it's the fact that you have no idea what you're doing.

PERINO: I think it might be a little unfair that he doesn't know what he's doing. It's confirmed by the Senate -- and for some people, some senators, including Joni Ernst, are calling for him to be fired.

Juan, what do you think of that?

WILLIAMS: I don't understand it. I mean, it seems to me he's focused on quality service to our veterans, and I just think that's where he should be focused. I just can't get away from that.

And this business about Disney seems to me like, all of a sudden, now it's a politicized issue. It shouldn't be politicized. Everybody wants better care for our veterans.

And right now, as I read it, 92 percent of veterans are seen in 30 days or less. And that's a vast improvement over the kind of scandal that was taking place out in Arizona. That's to his credit.

When he uses language about Disney, everybody jumps on, "Oh, Disney, Disneyland. He's talking about veterans, people dying, people needing medical care." I just think -- I don't understand it. If you're talking about quality, he's hired additional doctors, I think 1,300. He's hired 3,000 more nurses to serve our veterans. And don't forget, the polls show, as recently as 2013, 68 percent of veterans are pleased with the quality of care.

(CROSSTALK)

GUILFOYLE: We just have breaking news real quickly here. And he actually has, just moments ago, released a statement, in fact, where he apologized to the men and women and veterans that are serving, it was never his intention...

WILLIAMS: Right.

GUILFOYLE: ... to offend or insult or in any way not show, you know, appreciation for the scope of the problem. So that has just occurred, and that's the latest development in kind of this ongoing story.

PERINO: If he were to be fired, there's only six months left in the administration, and that means that nobody would get confirmed, and there would not be leadership at the V.A. confirmed until probably March of 2017.

GUILFOYLE: And who suffers in the interim? The veterans.

WILLIAMS: Right.

PERINO: That's the problem.

GUTFELD: The thing that he defended, it's like -- it's not actually about the Disneyland thing.

BOLLING: No.

GUTFELD: It's about the fact that he was kind of saying that it's -- the wait is the problem!

BOLLING: You're allowed to remove someone for incompetence. What McDonald showed is that he does not understand the essence, the very basic...

WILLIAMS: Why do you say that?

GUILFOYLE: Well, he should -- Shinseki was let go because of the wait lines. So that's why McDonald came in.

BOLLING: Shinseki was let go because of 700,000 or something waiting to be seen for the first time. And the waits and the waits and the waits, and the scandals where people died.

WILLIAMS: It wasn't just the waits.

BOLLING: For him to say, "Don't worry about the waits, you know, if it's all good once you get there. Don't worry about the wait."

WILLIAMS: No, no, no, no.

BOLLING: That's what he's saying.

GUILFOYLE: But are the wait times better? Have they improved under his watch? And certainly we want to make sure that the quality of care is there. But, you know, the best heart transplant in the world isn't going to matter if you're on a wait list and you can't get in in time.

WILLIAMS: But you heard me say 92 percent of veterans are seen within 30 days. That's better than most people trying to get into a public hospital.

GUTFELD: Not even the next day?

BOLLING: And not if you're the 8 percent.

WILLIAMS: But remember, the scandal was not the wait time...

GUILFOYLE: I think it's good, Dana, he apologized.

WILLIAMS: No, no, no.

WILLIAMS: I think he gets out of the thing, Kimberly, by just simply saying "I apologize," which is this sort verbal trap.

PERINO: When you are in a position of responsibility, you have to be careful with what you say, OK?

BOLLING: Yes.

PERINO: There. I think we can all degree.

OK. Virginia's governor, he is now under investigation by the feds. The probe has ties to the Clinton Foundation. Terry McAuliffe is denying any wrongdoing, and you're going to hear from him, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WILLIAMS: Some breaking news on Virginia's governor, Terry McAuliffe. The Justice Department has launched an investigation into whether the Democrat accepted any illegal contributions during his gubernatorial campaign. Among the donations under review, one from a Chinese businessman who has also given big money to the Clinton Foundation. The governor says he's done nothing wrong.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. TERRY MCAULIFFE (D), VIRGINIA: There's no wrong-doing allegations that have been made. If you read the story yesterday, they've got some questions about a donor. My legal team fully vetted this individual. He's been a green card holder since 2007.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS: McAuliffe is a long-time ally of the Clintons. Records show ma that more than 100 donors contributed to both the Clinton Foundation and McAuliffe's campaign. Now McAuliffe is denying any connection.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCAULIFFE: I've traveled the globe with President Clinton, and we have a lot of the same friends. Those that give to the Clinton Foundation have been friends of mine for years and years.

This has nothing to do with the Clinton Foundation. This was an allegation of a gentleman who gave a check to my campaign. I didn't bring the donor in. I didn't bring him into the Clinton Foundation. I'm not even sure if I've ever met the person.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS: So does this boil down, Kimberly, to whether he was a citizen or not a citizen when he made the donation?

GUILFOYLE: Yes, it's going to be -- it's going to come down to whether or not he was able legally to make that contribution to Terry McAuliffe. There was another 2 million to the Clinton Foundation. He's also given money to Harvard and New York University. So everyone is like, "Check your records for Mr. Wang."

So obviously this is bad, because everybody knows -- this is like an open secret -- that Terry McAuliffe is kind of like the bag man for the Clintons. He's very close to them. That's why you saw it today. Every picture, practically, with them is has Hillary Clinton in it, et cetera.

So you have even, like, liberal insiders saying that this is not good...

WILLIAMS: The money to the school and the medical people.

GUILFOYLE: ... for him, plus the Clinton Foundation.

WILLIAMS: The money to the foundation medical people, that can come from someone who's a foreign national. It's the money from a non-American to a political campaign that's illegal.

GUILFOYLE: Right. That's correct. That's correct. So he is somebody who's made -- I was just trying to show the breadth and diversity of his contributions in this country, political or otherwise.

But besides that, I think what's important is this has been investigation that's ongoing for one year. If you're just checking the paperwork to go, "Uh-huh, legal citizen, green card or not," what's taking a year? I think that this is more significant, because of the fact that there's connection, as well, to the Clinton Foundation. So that is, I think, the main interest.

WILLIAMS: What do you make of the fact that the Obama people are the ones doing the...

BOLLING: Yes, that's very, very interesting. I think that -- first of all, hats off to the FBI for doing that. I'm glad they're doing it. I'm glad they're investigating. I've said for a long time, keep pulling at those strings with the Clinton Foundation stuff. I'm sure that trail started with the Clinton Foundation. Oh, wait, this guy donated to the Clinton Foundation. He also donated, allegedly donated, directly to McAuliffe, which he can't -- all he had to do was donate to a super PAC on behalf of Terry McAuliffe, and that would have been OK. He can't donate directly. He didn't.

So as you pull these Clinton Foundation strings, I think you're going to see a whole network of corruption...

GUILFOYLE: And he was a board member of the foundation.

BOLLING; ... of money going to places it shouldn't go, including -- not -- absolutely including money that may be headed to the Clinton Foundation and somehow finds a way into a -- into a Clinton campaign.

WILLIAMS: Dana, when you look at this for McAuliffe, this would seem to be, you know, big trouble, but somehow McAuliffe is saying, "Absolutely not. Guarantee nothing here, nothing illegal." Why is he so absolute?

PERINO: Well, he could be right, and maybe they have information that we don't have yet. And maybe they've actually talked to the FBI.

I actually think one of the bigger problems is, regardless of what happens in terms of the campaign donation, if he was a legal American resident at the time, OK, that's probably not a problem there.

But what Terry McAuliffe said is that "I traveled the world with the Clintons. I know all the people at the Clinton Foundation. They're my friends." It's basically like the Clinton Global Initiative is an arm of the DNC. So if you're a friend of the Clintons, you just go there and you say, "OK, this person gave to the Clinton Global Foundation. Maybe they'll also give to my campaign." And it starts to get just gross, you know, in terms of, I'm not saying there's corruption. Just the Clinton Global Initiative might have been a really great idea at the time for the Clintons, but it's turned into be their Achilles heel.

WILLIAMS: You know, this is an interesting point. I think it does suggest that somehow there's all sorts of lines crossing.

GUILFOYLE: Right.

WILLIAMS: If you want influence, go to the foundation.

GUILFOYLE: Go out to Wall Street. Greed is good.

WILLIAMS: You know what? I saw a story today that said Ken Starr -- remember Ken Starr?

BOLLING: Yes.

WILLIAMS: ... that Ken Starr says, "Hey, you know what? Bill Clinton has been a great former president," and expressed admiration for him. I was very surprised to see that.

GUTFELD: That's an interesting question for me, because I wanted to stick to this topic.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

GUTFELD: I cannot believe that this guy became governor. This is a guy that created the idea of renting out the Lincoln bedroom. Remember when that happened? This guy didn't just push the envelope. He drove a truck through the post office. This guy is the Johnny Appleseed of raising money. Donald Trump gave him $25,000 to run for governor. This guy has created a...

PERINO: Twenty-five grand?

GUTFELD: He gave -- Trump gave him 25 grand, a guy who just allowed, what, 200,000 felons to vote.

GUILFOYLE: But that was trying to give the election to Hillary Clinton. Feast your eyes on Terry McAuliffe, trying to give all the felons in Virginia the right to vote to,, like, you know, move his friend into the White House, and he can sell the bedroom again. Oh, please.

WILLIAMS: So -- so you just think that McAuliffe is...

GUTFELD: He had no experience in political office.

WILLIAMS: All right.

GUTFELD: He had unusual business partners, and he's an expert at manipulating the media. Sounds familiar.

GUILFOYLE: And he's on the board of the Clinton Foundation.

WILLIAMS: All right. Greg gets the final point.

Next, we're going back to Greg. He's going to tell us about a wild hoax on Whole Foods. Stick with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GUTFELD: A gay Texas pastor who accused Whole Foods of writing an anti-gay slur in icing on a cake has dropped his lawsuit. Jordan Brown claimed he picked up this cake from the store with the slur on it; it was assault with batter-y.

And as one does, he posted a video to YouTube trashing Whole Foods. But sure enough, he made the whole thing up. Yes, a fake defaced a cake. Here are the number of people surprised by this:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(VIDEO OF AN EMPTY DESERT, THEN AN EMPTY ROAD, THEN ANOTHER EMPTY ROAD, THEN A MOUNTAIN RANGE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUTFELD: I think we get the point: no one.

Anyway, he's now since apologized, saying it was -- quote -- "wrong to pursue this matter and use the media to perpetuate this story. I want to apologize to Whole Foods for questioning the company's commitment to its values."

Now, Whole Foods countersued, but now they dropped the suit, which to me is idiotic. By dropping their suit, that not only lets these hoaxers off the hook; it encourages more dopes to seek attention in this manner.

You want to know why manufacturing victimhood is so popular? Because there are no consequences. Targets like Whole Foods are so relieved when the truth comes out, they just move on. They shouldn't. They should pursue action, because they can: they are rich.

Let's say, instead, the target was a mom-and-pop store who couldn't afford a defense attorney. Whole Foods does those shops a disservice by not crushing these crooks outright with their million-dollar legal team.

If they iced your cake with destructive lies, then you ice them in the court of law and lick the spoon afterwards.

GUILFOYLE: Oh, God.

GUTFELD: Yes, I do like that metaphor.

GUILFOYLE: I do love wedding cake.

GUTFELD: Kimberly, I've got to tell you, yes. That's the reason.

GUILFOYLE: Yes.

GUTFELD: Yes. There are other ways to do it. Don't buy the cake.

GUILFOYLE: Stimulating the economy.

GUTFELD: All right. A lot of these hoaxers end up citing psychological issues. That allows them to escape punishment. Why can't other criminals do that? Like, "I hijacked a plane, I have mental issues."

GUILFOYLE: OK, well, obviously, given the scope, I mean, you don't need me to explain that to you. Hijacking a plane or hijacking a cake, right?

GUTFELD: Yes.

GUILFOYLE: But nevertheless, it doesn't make it OK, because there was something here that he did that was injurious to the company.

GUTFELD: Right.

GUILFOYLE: I mean, really, that's bad for business and the commercial impact of it. He perpetuated a falsehood about Whole Foods, saying that they did this, saying that they were essentially against gay rights and homophobic. That could have significant, significant impact. You know, people that could act out criminally against Whole Foods, God knows, throw, like, a Molotov cocktail in the greens section. Who knows? Destroy the kale chips! Just kidding.

But there should be an impact. But then then they drop the suit, because they don't want to be against the crazy guy.

GUTFELD: Should they have -- should they have dropped it, Eric?

BOLLING: Yes. Unfortunately, the sad truth is it's cheaper to drop it. Whole Foods is a business, and they answer to the shareholders, not to a higher order. This can be solved by loser pays. You want to bring a lawsuit, you lose, you pay.

GUTFELD: That's good. Good point.

Dana.

PERINO: I want -- I think it's good that Whole Foods stuck by their employees.

GUTFELD: Yes.

PERINO: And didn't just assume that it had actually happened and fired somebody.

GUTFELD: Thank God for surveillance.

WILLIAMS: I was curious. I was going to ask you: how did they find out that the baker hadn't done it?

GUILFOYLE: Good reading there, Juan.

GUTFELD: Yes, it's in there. I think they noticed that -- it was not there on the cake, and then it was there later.

WILLIAMS: You know, but I was thinking the question...

GUILFOYLE: The magic eraser.

WILLIAMS: By the way, I think this guy doesn't have deep pockets, and so what are you going to get from him?

PERINO: Short arms.

GUILFOYLE: Gator arms? Gator.

WILLIAMS: But I was very impressed that at Whole Foods, when that cake went by the cashier...

GUTFELD: Yes.

WILLIAMS: ... there was no defaming comment on it.

GUTFELD: All right. We've got to go. "One More Thing" up next.

GUILFOYLE: Greg arms.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLLING: Time for "One More Thing" -- Greg.

GUTFELD: All right. So if you go to FOXNews.com and click on "Opinion," FOXNews.com, you will find my massive new piece on Donald Trump. It's such a large piece it's broken up into three parts. It's where I take the -- Robert Cialdini's amazing book "Influence," which is about sales and marketing, and I apply it -- and I apply it to Trump's campaign. And it's amazing how they match up. It's almost prophetic, check it out.

Do you just love it? OK. Guys, this is my new best friend. Cheesewich. One slice of hard salami. Although it appears a little soft in here. Slice -- two slices of pepper jack cheese.

GUTFELD: Can I point out your best friend at home right now is crying.

GUILFOYLE: Best friend, we can get back together. But in the meantime, it's all about what's in front of me.

This is so incredible. So many of you know I love salami, you know, cheese, the whole thing. So there's no bread here. It's quite delicious. This was sent to me, and I want to thank Luke Adamski (ph) and the team in Lyons (ph), Illinois, for sending me these samples of this. I mean, it's really, like, genius. I'm just mad that I didn't invent this.

PERINO: OK, so if you go to iTunes, to the podcast thing and you subscribe to the "Perino and Stirewalt" podcast. You can get to hear great insights, like our new podcast from last night. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PERINO: Why do we call it a horse race?

CHRIS STIREWALT, CO-HOST, "PERINO AND STIREWALT" PODCAST: Well...

PERINO: Is it because horse races are that close?

STIREWALT: Because horse races are close.

PERINO: Huh.

STIREWALT: Now a boat race, if somebody says it's a boat race, that means somebody is getting killed.

PERINO: I hope you subscribe. We have lot of fun. We haven't named the podcast yet. Chris can maybe help us with that, too.

BOLLING: Good stuff. Where do we get that? Where do you find it?

PERINO: You go to iTunes and the podcast button and just press it.

BOLLING: All right. Cool.

You know why America is so amazing and so great? Because of the free market and capitalism we support. You have a dream, you have an idea, you can make it here.

Here's my friend Bobby Podolsky's son, Brett, who decided he wants to -- here's the logo, Farmer's Dog. What it is, human ingredients, human level ingredients for dog food delivered directly to the house. Show me the picture of the two guys. He brought in another partner. There's the two dogs. They love their dogs. And they're killing it. Bobby and Brett Podolsky, and I can't remember his partner's name.

GUTFELD: For humans?

BOLLING: No, it's human...

PERINO: Like, you can eat it.

BOLLING: Human grade food.

PERINO: So I can eat it.

GUILFOYLE: Greg's a robot. The robots decided to make it.

PERINO: Like Blue Apron.

WILLIAMS: All right. So last weekend I was out at the Gaithersburg Book Festival to pump my new book, "We the People," and it was raining. It was pouring. But guess what? People love books. It was packed, and as a result there were some "Five" fans in the audience. And one of the questions, one of the most intriguing questions I got was, "Has your time at FOX changed you? Do you have a different view of the world? Did you write this book differently because of your time at FOX?"

And I had to honestly say yes. It's true. If you're surrounded -- I have conservative relatives, my sons, for example. But if you're surrounded by smart conservatives and under siege every day, believe me, it changes the way you think. Liberal preconceptions.

PERINO: We will get to you.

WILLIAMS: Yes, you do. Yes, you do.

GUILFOYLE: Midnight show.

BOLLING: Midnight show, don't forget. "Special Report" next.

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