Anyone who thinks that an invisible jerk in the sky is spying on them and telling them what to do-- ie. "own this particular piece of real-estate so that I can find you when the world comes to an end" or "stop the sodomites from getting married" or "vote for whitey"-- is 'mentally disturbed.' And it's no surprise that the more fanatical someone is, the more extreme their actions are going to be and the more entitled they're going to feel to perform them since "God is on their side." Bunch of absurd theistic nonsense, and the guilt doesn't just go to the most extreme; it rubs off on every 'moderate' apologist who promotes any degree of the same irrational, superstitious thinking.

If anyone else posted this article, I would think it's appropriate, but the fact that you constantly try to post articles that portray Israelis in a negative light makes this inappropriate. You can bitch and moan all you want about how this is relevant and you're unbiased, but the bottom line is you post things like this because you have an agenda.

calibro saidIf anyone else posted this article, I would think it's appropriate, but the fact that you constantly try to post articles that portray Israelis in a negative light makes this inappropriate. You can bitch and moan all you want about how this is relevant and you're unbiased, but the bottom line is you post things like this because you have an agenda.

What agenda are you assuming that the poster has? He always seems to be quite reasonable to me. I don't see anything out of line in wanting such settlers out of and off of West Bank land.

so lets see your logic here, which has a lot of fallacies but lets work with it:jewish settlers attack gays=jewish settlers need to leave

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/3211772.stm=Palestinians attacking gays=Palestinians need to leave?lol lots of jewish settlers will love your logic! they would compromise on attacking gays if Palestinians leave, in fact that would be their fantasy.

i agree that settlers need to get out of the west bank, but dont try to present irrational arguments.

sxydrkhairHomosexual is legal in the West Bank since 1951. Lesbian is legal in Gaza, not Gay. Gaza follow the laws dating to the British Criminal Code Ordinance of 1936. There is no LGBT protection law in the Palestinian territories because Palestine is not a country yet and Palestinians have corrupted government control by Israel.﻿ It is occupation and racist apartheid system in the Palestinian territories. I think we both agree BOTH sides religious nuts are hurting gay people there, not just religious Palestinian people.

can you show evidence that current gaza law follows the British criminal code? it follows a cretin Sharia law, not an expert on Sharia but it seems to be going on the same trend several other "Sharia law" followers are going.

agian you and your little friend that started this topic will use any opportunity to bad mouth Israel,

this is just so stupid, its even more stupid then Sarah Palin, your trying to make an argument that some how isarael is on the same level as Palestinians on gays....your too obsessed on this issue, and your lost your logic.

Overall the Israeli public AND government are far for advance on gay issues then the Palestinians and any arab country.

Sorry to arrive at this party so late, but a couple of comments need to be addressed (and SDH keeps sending me emails saying he hasn't seen me lately).

SDH> You don't see Palestinian illegal settlements in Israel

20% of Israel's population is Arab. We don't consider them "illegal".Unlike how Arabs view the presence of Jews.

SDH> You'll see many ruin Palestinian homes over there in Israel. None of those cities in Israel were founded by Israelis

A complete reversal of reality. During nearly 450 years of Arab occupation, only 2 cities were established (Ramle and Ramallah). All other "Arab cities" were previously Jewish towns: Most Christian readers are familiar with Jerusalem, Nazareth and Bethlehem, perhaps also other Biblical cities such as Beer Sheba, Megiddo and Hebron. Newer (i.e. only about 2,000 year old) Jewish cities include Caesarea and Tveriya (Tiberias).

Under foreign Arab occupation, many of these places had their names changed. For example, Jerusalem became Al Quds, Hebron became al-Khalil, Ashdod became Isdud, Tveriya became Tabariyyah.

You might ask, how come Kfar Etzion was established 4 times? Originally established by Jews from Yemen in 1927, it was destroyed during an Arab attack in 1929. The land was purchased, again, in 1934... only to be destroyed again in an Arab attack in 1936. Repurchased and rebuilt in 1943, it was destroyed during the Arab invasion of 1948 which ethnically cleansed all Jews from Judea, Samaria and Gaza as these were seized by Trans/Jordan and Egypt. After being liberated in 1967, survivors rebuilt Kfar Etzion and neighboring villages... and these are SDH's "illegal settlers".

Indeed, SDH's allegation that everywhere Jews live (except Tel Aviv) was previously an Arab village is absurd not only for historical reasons but also by mathematics. Consider that in the 19th century the pouplation of this area was estimated as low as 50,000 people. Mark Twain wrote in the 1860s how he could travel for a day without encountering a human being (and that in the northern valleys, not the southern deserts). Today between the river and the sea there are some 10,000,000 people.

The reality is that where Jewish pioneers settled, Arabs - drawn by the development - followed. Between the world wars, the Arab population grew most in areas of Jewish development. In Haifa (new port & industry), the Arab population grew 290%. In Jaffa (adjacent to Tel Aviv), 158%. In Jerusalem (more below) 131%. In contrast, in Nablus (the largest city in the "West Bank") only 42%, in Bethlehem 39%. In Jenin (closer to Jewish area which is why the town gained infamy as the departure point of suicide bombers), 78%. It's amazing that anyone would argue that Jewish population growth "displaced" Arabs.

There perhaps is no better example than so-called "Arab East Jerusalem". Jerusalem's Jewish population had been completely massacred (1 survivor) in the late 17th century, but by the 1820s had become a plurality and by the 1870s the majority. It was Jews in the 2nd half of the 19th century who began building homes outside of the old walled city, establishing eastern Jerusalem (e.g. Yemin Moshe, 1891; Neveh Yaakov, 1923).

Consider these pictures:

eastern Jerusalem, 1877.Where are all the Arab homes for generations? They didn't exist.(The one structure in the middle is an archeological site.)

Jewish Jerusalem, 1898. The two domed buildings are synagogues, destroyed by Arab invaders in 1948. The Jewish quarter was restored after 1967, but propagandists like SDH and KT consider them "settlers".

Hebrew University on Mt. Scopus, 1933The land was purchased and not built on "stolen" let alone destroyed Arab homes.The campus was seized by Arab invaders in 1948 and restored after 1967.

Now back to the gay stuff:

SDH> Homosexual is legal in the West Bank since 1951.

While it's true that British laws criminalizing homosexuality were taken off the books by Trans/Jordan (and the PA hasn't enacted any since 1994), there are no legal protections for gay people in this territory outside of areas (legally) administered by Israel.

Despite SDH's intentional misrepresentation, as we've discussed before, even Arab groups catering to gay people have their offices located in... Israel. There is an established history over recent decades of gay people in areas of the disputed territories not under Israeli rule to flee to Israel.

SDH> Lesbian is legal in Gaza

Again the same twisting. Absence of a law against something is far different in this part of the world than laws protecting gays/lesbians. Any woman in Gaza found to be a lesbian would likely be killed by her own family in an "honor killing". (Hint: liquor stores and Christian book stores have been burnt down in Gaza.)

SDH> There is no LGBT protection law in the Palestinian territories because Palestine is not a country yet and Palestinians have corrupted government control by Israel.﻿

Pure propaganda BS. The PA has enacted many laws (e.g. forbidding Jews to purchase land), so there is no reason it couldn't pass laws protecting the rights of gay people - were this on the agenda. It's not.

Given that Israel has some of the most liberal laws protecting homosexuals, one would think that if the PA was under Israeli "control" that it would have already passed laws recognizing gay rights.

SDH> BOTH sides religious nuts are hurting gay people there, not just religious Palestinian people.

A false equivalence. It's true that some orthodox Jews, like the nut in this story, oppose the "gay agenda". Much as fudamentalist Christians do in the USA. But there is no comparison between the situation gay people enjoy in Israel (complete legal protection and freedom, including state recognized common law marriage) and the repressive, even deadly, state of affairs in the PA territories.

It is quite obvious that some of the Jewish realjockers get all bent out of shape when Israel is justly criticized for its harsh treatment of the Palestinian people. I guess some things will never change on realjock.

imperator saidAnyone who thinks that an invisible jerk in the sky is spying on them and telling them what to do-- ie. "own this particular piece of real-estate so that I can find you when the world comes to an end" or "stop the sodomites from getting married" or "vote for whitey"-- is 'mentally disturbed.' And it's no surprise that the more fanatical someone is, the more extreme their actions are going to be and the more entitled they're going to feel to perform them since "God is on their side." Bunch of absurd theistic nonsense, and the guilt doesn't just go to the most extreme; it rubs off on every 'moderate' apologist who promotes any degree of the same irrational, superstitious thinking.

GOD guiding human hands to carry out strategic atrocities against one's neighbors.......is one helluva founding principle for any nation.

And we've got lunatics like Sarah Palin who'd love to inflict her "God" on us and the rest of the world.

racist roadbikerob> It is quite obvious that some of the Jewish realjockers get all bent out of shape

Non-Jewish realjockers also got bent out of shape by some of the falsehoods presented here (and elsewhere), but it's no surprise to see our resident anti-semite, who often thunders that "Jews have it coming", is unable to address the topic and instead makes a generalized ad hominem attack on Jewish realjockers.

rrbr> Israel is justly criticized for its harsh treatment of the Palestinian people

Even at the height of the intifadah, two-thirds of the Palestinian Arabs gave high marks to Israeli democracy and human rights.What do they know that you don't?

http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/2002/p6a.html|| Only 19% give PA democracy a positive evaluation and only 17% expect a democratic system in the Palestinian state. But 66% of the Palestinians give a positive evaluation to the status of democracy and human rights in Israel.

rrbr will now rant that scientific polls (even if conducted by Ivy League educated Palestinian Arab social scientists) can't be trusted... as if he has a better grasp of reality from anecdotal propaganda stories.

I invite you to compare freedoms (including legal protection for gay people) and standard of living and quality of life in the territories before and after 1967 and again after PA rule was instituted (1996) and worse yet under Hamas rule (2006).

There's a reason that Arabs living in border regions want to remain in Israel rather than have their village included in land swaps that would put them under Arab rule. There's a reason that Arabs in eastern Jerusalem, fearful that their neighborhoods would be ceded to the PA, preferred to leave their homes to move elsewhere in Israel.

There's a reason that Arabs (and even Muslim refugees from as far as Darfur) attempt to sneak IN to Israel rather than seek to escape from it.Again, what do they know that you don't?

Caslon> The West Bank and Gaza go to the Palestinians. Israel goes to Israel. That's the end of it. Settlers get out of WB. Palestinians stop shelling Israel.

So you are saying that all Jews (or "settlers" in propaganda slogans and sound-bites) must leave Judea & Samaria... but Arabs living in Israel can stay where they are? Jews must vacate Kfar Etzion (see above) and Hebron, Judaism's 2nd holiest city, must become Judenrein again (as it was after the 1929 Arab massacre of Jews and again from 1948-1967)?

And what of eastern Jerusalem? People like SDH consider it part of the so-called "West Bank" (which in reality is the "West Bank of Trans/Jordan", i.e. the territory illegally seized by Trans/Jordan during its 1948 invasion). Must the ancient Jewish quarter (including the Western/Wailing Wall) and newer construction from the last century or two (Yemin Moshe, Hebrew University - see pictures above) again be forbidden to Jews?

Caslon> Is that really so difficult?

It's not so simple, but it's really not that difficult, either. There have been and are viable compromises. As you know, part of the problem is that some parties (e.g. Hamas) categorically reject compromise. On RJ, neither KT/bethlehem or SDH can find one thing on which they are willing to compromise.

roadbikeRob saidIt is quite obvious that some of the Jewish realjockers get all bent out of shape when Israel is justly criticized for its harsh treatment of the Palestinian people. I guess some things will never change on realjock.

During nearly 450 years of Arab occupation, only 2 cities were established (Ramle and Ramallah). All other "Arab cities" were previously Jewish towns: Most Christian readers are familiar with Jerusalem, Nazareth and Bethlehem, perhaps also other Biblical cities such as Beer Sheba, Megiddo and Hebron. Newer (i.e. only about 2,000 year old) Jewish cities include Caesarea and Tveriya (Tiberias). Under foreign Arab occupation, many of these places had their names changed. For example, Jerusalem became Al Quds, Hebron became al-Khalil, Ashdod became Isdud, Tveriya became Tabariyyah

SDH> Tiberias was a mixed Palestinian and Jewish....

Look how the lie changes. SDH starts out pretending that Jews took over Arab cities... then he changes the subject. Tiberias was founded by Jews, not Arabs, about 2,000 years ago. More than 600 years before the first Arab invasion.

SDH> have to be Jew in order to buy land there [in Israel].

That's false. Neither Jews or Arabs can purchase state lands in Israel, it is only available for long-term lease. There are no restrictions on private land purchases.

SDH> That is why Palestinians have this law in the West Bank and Gaza we can't sell our land to Israelis.

The PA law forbids land sales not to Israelis (20% of whom are not Jews) but to Jews. It is not "retaliation" for a non-existent law in Israel. It's due to the history of Arabs sellng land to Jews. You prefer to ignore that so you can spam your "steal" soundbite propaganda lie.

SDH> Jews are more welcome in the West Bank and Gaza.

How many Jews are there in Gaza? 0.In the "West Bank"? 2, both of them anti-Zionists?(That's like saying that gays are accepted in an area which tolerates 2 "ex-gays".)

Where Jewish pioneers settled, Arabs - drawn by the development - followed. Between the world wars, the Arab population grew most in areas of Jewish development. In Haifa (new port & industry), the Arab population grew 290%. In Jaffa (adjacent to Tel Aviv), 158%. In Jerusalem (more below) 131%. In contrast, in Nablus (the largest city in the "West Bank") only 42%, in Bethlehem 39%. In Jenin (closer to Jewish area which is why the town gained infamy as the departure point of suicide bombers), 78%. It's amazing that anyone would argue that Jewish population growth "displaced" Arabs.

SDH> ?

While it's true that British laws criminalizing homosexuality were taken off the books by Trans/Jordan (and the PA hasn't enacted any since 1994), there are no legal protections for gay people in this territory outside of areas (legally) administered by Israel. Despite SDH's intentional misrepresentation, as we've discussed before, even Arab groups catering to gay people have their offices located in... Israel. There is an established history over recent decades of gay people in areas of the disputed territories not under Israeli rule to flee to Israel.

SDH> Palestinians don't understand the gaylife style because they never grew up around gay community like the one in Tel Aviv.

Tel Aviv didn't have a gay community a generation ago. By your "logic", only places that already have gay communities can develop gay communities, which is to say that there would be no gay communities anywhere. Nor is it like Utah - there are plenty of gay bars in Salt Lake City.

Look again how the lie progresses: First SDH misrepresented there was tolerance, homosexuality allegedly being "legal since 1951". Then he attempts to rationalize why there isn't tolerance. It's not like this is a new realization for SDH - we've had this exact same exchange, and the same progression of lies, at least twice before.

There is no comparison between the situation gay people enjoy in Israel (complete legal protection and freedom, including state recognized common law marriage) and the repressive, even deadly, state of affairs in the PA territories.

SDH> Israeli Settlers are welcome to stay if they follow the law and live with Palestinians. Live equal.

Rather odd given that ALL the Jews living in Judea & Samaria were ethnically cleansed when it became Trans-Jordan's so-called "West Bank".

Considering how Jews don't live as "equals" anywhere in the Arab world, not historically or today, one would have to be rather short sighted to take that at face value. Especially given the myriad of contradictions that follow:

One minute SDH is telling us that these 280,000 "settlers" are "extremists" and "religious nuts"... and the next second (to argue a different point) he pretends like they are "welcome to stay"?

Yet in the very next sentence:

SDH> The main problems are the settlers

Why? If they are "welcome to stay", what's the problem?!

As if that isn't contradictory enough, consider what was said here 2 months ago:

SDH> they need to get the hell out of thereKT/bethlehem> Bottom line: Israeli settlers need to leave!

I think we all know that Jews are even less "welcome" than gay people.

SDH> I am with you Caslon. The West Bank and Gaza go to Palestinians and Israel go to Israelis... 1948 Palestinians (refugees) want to return their home in Israel.

So what SDH is really saying is that the WB&G would go to the Palestinian Arabs, and Israel will go to the Palestinian Arab "refugees".

I appreciate the history lessons. I am an assimilated American Jew who knows very little about the history of Israel after the diaspora. My father believed Israel could do no wrong. My mother not so much. BTW, being a Jewish atheist is so much fun!

Hey that reminds me when I visited Israel I met a hot Israeli and we made out in the middle of everywhere including malls, in front of families, and in the line at the airport (for 10 minutes while everyone walked around us).

Nope, I don't think Israeli settlers killed me or even cared. I bet this news is about one of those crazy ass Orthodox retards that live in Jerusalem.

So bethlehem, tell me. What's it like living in a Palestinian Territory. Go out to the gay bars much? When is gay Pride? Can you serve in the Palestinian military as an openly gay man? What happens if you kiss another dude in a Palestinian mall?