One of my big disagreements with ET is on the subject of suicide. He claims that suicide "is a big 'no' to life", i.e., the opposite of the surrender, the "yes" to life. Strangely, he hardly ever talks about this all-important subject - suicide. It was in one very rare talk (couldn't begin to remember which one) that he briefly mentioned this.

Let's examine suicide ... what it is, in terminology that might make sense to ET. On one level, it is liberation from, or transcendence beyond, the world of form ... the (human) form that causes the unimaginable suffering we all know about. On another level, it is (in some cases), an action that results from surrender (not resignation) to the life situation. Now, to some people, getting a job might be the "action" that is deemed right. What if the termination of one's own physical life (i.e. form) is the best action, and that it results from a complete and unconditional surrender to the present moment ? What if the person is at total peace with the present moment, but simply feels no need to go on living as this form ?

How can ET call this a "no" to life ?

P.S. This is NOT a cry for help or a "save me, I'm dying" thread ! It is my intention to debate the subject of suicide in general. This has nothing to do with my specific life situation. Thanks for understanding.

Last edited by painBody on Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:44 am, edited 2 times in total.

Are you here trapped against your will on this planet? Is life a prison where death is the only way 'home'?

OR

Did you choose to come here to explore human life? To express the uniqueness that is you through a human vehicle?

These aren't questions to look for in the mind. Really sit with each side and feel into it. One of them will likely feel better to you than the other. But, you need to get in a clear space of stillness to weigh the two.

Death in the words of Abraham is a 'complete release of resistance'. Meaning, as long as you live in a human body, there is always a level of resistance (the survival mechanism resisting the natural expression/desire of who you really are because it fears.....BEING YOU as being you comes with too many risks such as rejection, vulnerability, etc). But, resistance is an essential aspect of physical life. You could not create without resistance as everything would happen instantaneously.

You see, we each come here with a desire to express who we truly are through these human vehicles. But, we take on limiting beliefs at a young age. Those limiting beliefs are formed from the limited perspective of the human survival mechanism, which then leads to a limited view on who we are, and suffering. The survival mechanism or as some call it....the ego.....is constantly looking out for your safety, because it loves you and that's what it's designed to do....to protect you. It therefore, looks at every situation as life and death. Suffering is a result of this survival mechanism running the show and living your life with those limiting beliefs, because you believe yourself to be nothing more than just a physical vehicle. This survival mechanism will do anything in its power to control life, because letting go of control means 'death' to it. The fear of living is a result of the survival mechanism operating from old limited beliefs. When we take these limiting beliefs to be true, this mechanism will constantly put up resistance to any situation it deems 'dangerous'. So, if we believe that life is a scary place and that we are 'not good enough' which is a predominant human belief, then this mechanism will do anything in its power to try to avoid 'getting emotionally hurt' and will start to deem situations that could potentially cause emotional harm as 'death'.

But, it's just trying to protect you. Essentially that's what they refer to as 'ego death', it's just a letting go of control and releasing resistance. We all can let go of this resistance by realizing that we are not the story in our minds. But, of course, there will always be a survival mechanism that will surely cause some resistance. But, you don't have to resist the resistance if you understand with compassion why it's there, that it's just protecting you based on old beliefs.

So, then......the question you are asking. Because when you are truly at peace with the present moment, you have further access to that place of intuition. When you really let go into that stillness, it is truly only then, where you really connect to the heart of who you truly are...that higher self or soul or whatever term you want to use which is the aspect of you that CHOOSES to come here to have experiences. That's where your desires and your passions are. And when you're connecting to that passion, LIVING is the only thing that excites us. That's why you came here. Boredom is a sign of disconnection with yourself. I've been there.....trust me.

No, suicide is not a "no", if you understand who you truly are in the greater scheme.....that chose to come here intentionally. That you chose to explore some likely very challenging life experiences simply because of the contrast that it offers. But, suicide would really never be an option, unless you are resisting your own resistance.

What if the termination of one's own life is the best action, and that it results from a complete and unconditional surrender to the present moment ? What if the person is at total peace with the present moment, but simply feels no need to go on living as this form ?

Its not the answer...I've been there, it's NOT the answer. That's my personal opinion from experience. My life has completely changed since then and that's the nature of this world...constant change.

Ultimately, you are that which doesn't change, so no matter what is happening you are ok. You just don't know this until the mind apprehends it true nature and assimilates this Self knowledge, so you get the fruit of the knowledge.

But, so long as you take yourself to be the person/jiva, the you (awareness) are associated with, you will suffer with every seemingly bad event/situation that arises. Don't get me wrong pain is painful and not pleasant, but suffering happens from thinking that what happens actually diminishes your "being".

I don't rule it out in my own life. I believe there may be a time when I stop eating......when I am old enough, close enough to death, or in enough pain. I am watching my father in law at the end of life, not wanting to live, in pain, but not having the clear mind to chose death.

Other than that, I agree with dijmart, I have passed through periods of intense pain and suffering......years of it and have come out the other side with a satisfied mind. The pain and suffering shaped me and I wouldn't trade it, as it shaped the sanity I feel now.

Last edited by Onceler on Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I believe Eckhart is referring to the intense pain and suffering that most people experience as the intense personalization, that can often lead to terminating one's human existence.

Sometimes we can get to a point in our spiritual evolution though where continued interest in human existence can become rather pointless and meaningless.

I've been in both situations.

Suicide due to pain and suffering can be attractive when the pain is so intense and suffering so real that there seems no other option but death. I can understand that. If people feel the need to kill themselves, I don't discourage them, I simply let them know that I was in that same position and now am at peace, so know that there is another way, potentially a better option.

As for the spiritual aspect, I always maintain that life is for living, not for dying. We'll all die soon enough, that's guaranteed, so we might as well enjoy life as long as we can, play with form and not take anything too seriously.

Bear in mind, there are two aspects to consciousness, which are the same aspect seen from two different perspectives. There is the emptiness, and there is the fullness. While emptiness is the nothingness, the void, that is revealed as the infinite and the eternal, fullness is revealed as the joy of living, in loving all that is.

“Wisdom is knowing I am nothing, Love is knowing I am everything, and between the two my life moves.” ― Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj

I think it's so difficult to discuss these topics on an internet forum, because I never know if the person who is asking, is asking because they are thinking of taking their own life. I obviously would never want to steer people in that direction. Di has her own experience with this, so she is likely the best person to discuss this with.

Onceler has shared his personal experiences with anxiety and David as well with chronic pain I believe.

And so many people fear death, that many are worrying that suicide is a 'no', but it's not a 'no'. There is no such thing as a 'no'. Nor is there a such thing as 'death'. Death is just a de-focusing of attention on "this" back into the larger Awareness of the 'all' which is what you already are and always have been. David presents some good points. Granted, I will say that boredom is likely a sign of spiritual 'disconnection' in a sense. Yet, as someone with a chronic illness (chronic fatigue syndrome and crohns which I completely healed), and chronic fatigue I have largely put into remission through neural re-wiring, it can flare up at times and it's awful when it does. However, I have learned to be with my body compassionately during times of sickness. I've learned so dearly to dis-identify with the story playing which is NOT me. The story that had previously caused me so much suffering in my life.

So, I've pondered suicide in the past about 9-10 years ago when my symptoms first started and I had no idea what was going on with me. However, I have such a different perspective on life now. But, suicide is STILL an option for me down the line, if my symptoms were ever to get to the point where they were so bad that I could not function. Basically, if there was no way out. After all, who is going to judge me for exiting this life? Only myself. I know now what death is and I have no fear anymore of it.

But, suicide is usually never an option because in 99.999 percent of the cases, it is due to a mis-identification with the 'story'.

Good post, enilightened2b. It is tricky knowing the intentions of the OP, or anyone else reading this thread. I agree with the 99.8% number. I also agree with painbody, that it's important to talk about. About a year and a half ago the tenant in a friend's small detached house committed suicide by hanging. I didn't even know the guy, but he lived there for ten years and was quite the character......my friend had a ton of funny stories about him. He grew more and more reclusive until finally barely leaving the house. I was amazed at the impact I felt from this suicide, mainly via my friend. He felt terribly guilty and devastated. A group of us worked hard for many months to clean and remodel the house, it was trashed, resulting in an ultimately positive experience of, ironically, community. It was like we needed to assert our community of friends to ward off this deep pathology......I came to value my friendships and community. The intense impact of this destructive act was startling, especially since he didn't have much social connection. I can't imagine the reverberations of someone who is deeply connected.

I believe having a choice at the end of life as to whether one dies a week, month, or year earlier is a very different scenario and one we need to illuminate this issue as a culture. I see it as an autonomous decision, but also a smart consumer decision. I believe nearly 80% of a persons health care costs are spent in the last year of life. I am highly aware of myself as a consuming entity these days and I don't wish to use more than my share of resources on a painful confused shadow of living....and to burn through money that could be left to my kids.

Again, thanks for the responses ! Some people have expressed concern about the OP's intentions, so I will clarify.

No, I'm not currently suicidal. However, I have had suicidal ideation, on and off, for the past twenty years, i.e. from the age of 13 onwards. I made one deadly serious attempt and a few semi-serious attempts in the past few years. And yes, I've tried therapists, pills of all shapes and sizes ... nothing helped.

I wanted to approach this subject from the ET angle, because, as I mentioned, this is a subject he has not spoken much about (and I've listened to a LOT of his audiobooks/talks).

Apart from the spiritual/ET angle, I think that suicide is a very practical choice for some folks, and I'm NOT talking about senior citizens approaching the end of human life expectancy. I'm NOT talking about "terminally ill" people, in the usual sense of that term. I'm also NOT talking about a high school kid experiencing unrequited "love" who runs to mommie's cabinet for some pills. No !

I'm talking about someone who has given it a LOT of rational thought, over years, and tried everything in their limited power to make things better, and needs to accept that things will likely not change. People who have no support system, nowhere to turn for help.

Put it this way ... you have a math equation. You add up all the *potential* reasons to stick around, all the *possibilities* of improvement, on one side ... and on the other side of the equation, you have the near certainty of the pain you know will likely not just evaporate. That equation, for some, yields a very simple and rational conclusion ... there is, realistically, not much they are "missing out on", and no one can deny that suicide solves ALL problems and FOREVER.

You're asking for something here that simply cannot be given to you by people who don't know you well enough. We each have given our own perspectives on 'suicide' in general. However, NONE of our perspectives would be able to be applied to your situation.

Just from listening to what you are saying, you sound defeated. I know you've mentioned that you've tried therapists. But, I can assure you from my own experience, there are good ones and really shitty ones.

Please explore the potential that there IS another good quality therapist out there for you.

I'm talking about someone who has given it a LOT of rational thought, over years, and tried everything in their limited power to make things better, and needs to accept that things will likely not change. People who have no support system, nowhere to turn for help.

Nope, this is your problem. Look at the words I highlighted. You are not going to get answers from the same place where the problem exists. You are NOT YOUR STORY. You can NOT rely on rational thought as rational thought will only confirm for you, your old limiting beliefs. There is a greater aspect of you that I KNOW is not in alignment with suicide.

You did not just come here to Earth to simply kill yourself. Killing yourself is never a 'rational choice'

As you know, I also have had a suicide attempt years ago. Suicide is often considered, because it's thought of as a "way out" from sustained stress, lack of coping mechanisms, hopelessness, despair, mental anguish. However, en2b is correct that suicide is irrational usually, the distressed mind want the distress to end. When coping hasn't worked, it resorts to thinking of ending itself all together. At that point, usually as a last resort, suicidal ideation starts, if it hasn't occurred prior. The mind is irrational, because it's distressed for a sustained, prolonged amount of time and is suffering. I understand this, can relate to this, but it still can change!

I look back at the circumstances that almost ended my life and if I was thinking rationally, not distressed for a sustained amount of time, I could have worked through it. I DID wind up working through it... it took time and persistence to want to make things better and eventially (with medication and therapy and hard work) they were better. As long as you are breathing you have a choice!

If you have no support, you can contact NAMI or another national organization or call 911, go to the ER, someone there will get you help.

From the spiritual point of view the body is an appearance in the mind, and the mind is made of pure Consciousness. Therefore, from this point of view, the death of the body is simply the cessation of an appearance in the mind; it is not the end of mind itself. And, just as when we fall asleep at night, the waking-state body and its world vanish and the mind creates a new dreamed body with its new dreamed world, so there is nothing to suggest that on the death of the body at ‘physical death’, the same mind that gave rise to it will not give rise to another body with its own world, in order to experience whatever residues are still remaining in that mind, including its suffering. In this case suicide would give, at best, only temporary relief from suffering. This is not an answer from the absolute point of view, but rather a relative response to the question of suicide. Rupert Spira