So we have Sony to thank for saving the next generation of videogames?

and as thanks I'll probably most likely buy their competitions console now

Why?

Let me rephrase that: Why would you already commit to Durango? We know very little about Durango yet, but what we've heard is a description of a system that is good, but not quite as good as the PS4 in any way. It's got a slower CPU and slower RAM (this part is the most important one. RAM speed makes a huge difference). It's no longer got the advantage in ease of development, but instead limits its developers with stringent dev tools whereas Sony allows devs to dig deep into the fundamentals of the system. This has an additional layer of importance since part of the reason the PS3 suffered despite being more powerful than the 360 was because of how hard it was to develop for. With that problem out of the way, and because the architectures for the two consoles are so similar, a direct comparison in power becomes more relevant. It's got paid multiplayer where PS4 is most likely still free. It no longer holds an advantage in social features, and unless Microsoft has a huge ace up their sleeve, I don't really see them surpassing what Sony was able to show us last night. The Gaikai integration could really become a gamechanger. Durango doesn't have a companion console like the PS4 has with the Vita, leaving it the only console where you have no option of playing on the go.

I'm not saying Durango won't be better than the PS4. I'm just saying that everything we've seen so far (and yes, I'm aware that it's an unfair comparison as long as PS4 is officially announced and Durango is not) indicates that the PS4 has the advantage, and a surprisingly large one at that. Just consider something as simple (but fundamental) as the Share button. It sounds silly at first, but that's until you stop and think about it. How many times have you done something totally awesome in a game, and then felt regret that you'll never see that situation again nor be able to prove to your friends that it happened? The PS4 allows you to record video after the fact. Let that sink in for a moment. You don't have to plan to record video. You record it once you already know that you've done something that is worth recording. This is going to be huge! Will the Durango have something similar? Most likely not, as this is a very innovative and surprising direction for a console. Will it have something else that is equally cool? Quite possibly, but we don't know.

And since we don't know, why would someone commit to the Durango at this stage?

Tilt you've been touting PS4 laurels a bit hard where I am starting to see a bit of a bias. I am holding off on joining the PS4 bandwagon as I am waiting to see what MS has to offer, but I stand by my original thought. I will go where most of my friends go.

I just want to touch on Live vs. Free PS. Live from what I am understanding is much better offering than anything PS has at the moment from everything I read. Unless I missed something we don't know if Sony will offer some sort of paywall for MP. I agree free this generation was great for PS owners, but with the amount of bandwidth the PS4 will be using I can't see them offering it without some sort of subscription.

Tilt you've been touting PS4 laurels a bit hard where I am starting to see a bit of a bias.

The PS3 is my console of choice in this generation (though I do own all of them except the Wii U), and since there seems to be a general preference for the 360 in this forum, it's only natural that my point of view will come off as a bias. Maybe it is. Biased people are usually the last to know. Having said that, you can't really claim that what I wrote above is biased, can you? I was in fact trying to stop an apparent bias, or at least learn something about why it was there in the first place. Keep in mind that I went from hating the PS3 to "loving" it throughout this last generation when I say these things. It's not like I haven't reflected on my attitudes towards each console.

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I am holding off on joining the PS4 bandwagon as I am waiting to see what MS has to offer, but I stand by my original thought. I will go where most of my friends go.

That's fair. I guess I can expand my question to include that. Some people around here have apparently already committed to the Durango despite not knowing where their friends will go. I'm just puzzled by this (apparently) blind brand loyalty in the face of current knowledge.

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I just want to touch on Live vs. Free PS. Live from what I am understanding is much better offering than anything PS has at the moment from everything I read.

For PS3 vs 360, that does indeed appear to be true. What we've seen of the PS4 in that regard is miles ahead of the 360 however, so that comparison is now becoming outdated.

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Unless I missed something we don't know if Sony will offer some sort of paywall for MP.

They've made public statements saying that they consider online multiplayer to be a basic, mandatory feature of a modern console and that they would never charge for such basics. Sorry, I don't have a source, as it's been a year or two since I read it.

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I agree free this generation was great for PS owners, but with the amount of bandwidth the PS4 will be using I can't see them offering it without some sort of subscription.

That's a fair assessment, and probably correct. You need to separate the MP part of this from the rest of the service however. I fully expect MP to continue to be free (it doesn't exactly consume that much bandwidth these days), but the social features such as video uploads, streaming, and so on are probably going to be integrated into PS Plus. Video streaming and storage space costs money that Sony will need to recoup somehow, while MP is a very cheap service in comparison.

and here is my shitty picture again,showing what i mean(and then compare both the 360, and PS3 controllers side on,which is what i am getting at,the triggers on the DS3 they go down to far,just like the DS4 here)

As far as backwards compatibility goes, why don't people just keep their old consoles? I've got my old PS1, PS2, and XBox all still hooked up, and they work fine. It does create a bit of clutter, but it allows me to play all my old games.

The reason is called a wife. Having both the PS3 and PS4 set up would require two sets of cameras (along with the Kinect and Wii U ones), multiple controllers and plugs and DVI ports and all that shit all over the place, not to mention clutter on the Universal remote, which my wife already considers to be unwieldy. Plus there's just not space for another large console in the cabinet.

Quote from: Destructor on February 21, 2013, 01:12:52 AM

Quote from: CeeKay on February 21, 2013, 01:09:35 AM

No native PS3 support knocks it down a peg. are they going to make you rebuy all your old games for the everything everywhere idea?

Personally what I think they're aiming for with their cloud support is this:

Take your PS1/PS2/PS3 disc and toss it into the PS4 (it should be able to read those no problem). Then it'll activate the 'cloud service' that Sony owns (whatever it's called), and it'll stream it to your PS4/Vita/tablet/whatever.

The PS4 can go into a low-power mode for background patching/downloading. And no doubt can activate to full power over wi-fi (again, like PCs can do). So that's how it'll be able to verify you own said disc from anywhere in the world, and stream it to whatever device you want.

Also, PS3 backwards compatibility was IMPOSSIBLE this gen. Period. WAY too much of a core console change. I don't expect it out of the 720 either, although it has a somewhat decent chance (as the 360 was more or less a PC, but not quite).

There was also a big change from the PS2 to the PS3, but they managed it. Until they decided they didn't want to spend the money on it. It isn't impossible, as will become clear when they start offering PS3 games for an extra price (just like they're doing with PS2 games on the non-BC PS3).

They won't let you put the disc in the drive and unlock it in the cloud, since used games still exist and way too many people would unlock a game and return it. What would be fantastic however is if you can stream a PS3 game as long as the disc is in the drive. That would essentially be the exact same thing as BC, as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not terribly impressed by yesterday's announcement. The PS4 seems only a half-step in the console generation. Facebook-access, sharing of gaming experiences, or cloud-gaming don't get me excited to buy another plastic brick to put on my living room. The only thing I liked was the announcement of 'Infamous: Second Son'. And don't get me started about them not showing the actual console. UGH!

I'm not terribly impressed by yesterday's announcement. The PS4 seems only a half-step in the console generation. Facebook-access, sharing of gaming experiences, or cloud-gaming don't get me excited to buy another plastic brick to put on my living room. The only thing I liked was the announcement of 'Infamous: Second Son'. And don't get me started about them not showing the actual console. UGH!

The dickish answer to that would be "get used to it".

Seriously though, this generation is a bit of a paradigm shift, as the market doesn't exist to support the technology that would be required for the increase in power that we're used to from new console generations. I think Sony did the right thing by focusing on features instead of hardware (while still pumping out as much power as they could, unlike Nintendo), and they're going to be joined by Microsoft. We'll probably "never" see console generations of the classic kind again.

One other thing: What we mostly saw yesterday were shooters or similar games. Those aren't the ones that will show the biggest difference from what we're used to. The real shocker will come when the first open-world RPG gets released. The increase in RAM alone will make an absolutely enormous difference in the experience we'll be able to have. Shooters can only increase graphical quality and AI. RPGs can do a lot of other things, such as increased persistency, even more complex AI, larger and more varied worlds, removal of loading screens, richer sound landscapes, etc. I'm really looking forward to that.

Did any of the demos show use of the controller touchpad? I still can't picture how you're supposed to reach that thing with your thumbs to do anything other than use it as a gigantic button. The controller shape also doesn't seem suited to holding it up with one hand and using the other to do touchpaddery.

If I was in charge of Sony, I would do a non-reveal like yesterday and toss some specs out there. Microsoft would then spend money and investment of resources and time to beat these specs. At E3 I would then roll out the real specs of the system that were better in every way. The excitement and positive buzz with this would be trumped only by the joy of juking Microsoft into investing in a certain performance level to beat the early reveal only to come up short when Sony upped the ante.

Why does it matter what the box looks like? If they put it in a beige pc box would you not buy it? What matters is what's inside the box, and they revealed that.

Really Teggy? How many livings rooms would add the old PC box to their living room set up? I know you were being facetious, but aesthetics matter

I care about the games. I can't imagine not buying a console because I didn't like the way the box looks. Maybe if it was too big to get in my door, but be logical here. It's going to look like a Playstation of some sort and it will fit in a cabinet.

Why does it matter what the box looks like? If they put it in a beige pc box would you not buy it? What matters is what's inside the box, and they revealed that.

I just want to know the size

Men are always preoccupied with size.

Well I just want to know if this thing is going to be bigger in my hands compared to what I'm used to. And will it handle differently? Right now I'm used to rubbing my PS3 in just the right spot to make it eject, but will the PS4 eject in the same way? Will it still require direct contact with human skin to eject? Where is its slot going to be?

Why does it matter what the box looks like? If they put it in a beige pc box would you not buy it? What matters is what's inside the box, and they revealed that.

Really Teggy? How many livings rooms would add the old PC box to their living room set up? I know you were being facetious, but aesthetics matter

I care about the games. I can't imagine not buying a console because I didn't like the way the box looks. Maybe if it was too big to get in my door, but be logical here. It's going to look like a Playstation of some sort and it will fit in a cabinet.

I'm with Teggy here. It would have been nice if they showed it, but they still said how powerful it's going to be. The original PS3 was ugly and I still bought that.

Did any of the demos show use of the controller touchpad? I still can't picture how you're supposed to reach that thing with your thumbs to do anything other than use it as a gigantic button. The controller shape also doesn't seem suited to holding it up with one hand and using the other to do touchpaddery.

I had a similar reaction, but I think we're just approaching it wrong. I don't think it's supposed to be a way to control games, but will instead be used in the user interface. One of the big hurdles to home consoles being used for web browsing (for example) has been the lack of a mouse and keyboard. While the touchpad won't solve the keyboard part of the equation, at least it should cover for the mouse. You would use the touchpad in the same way you'd use one on a laptop, in other words not by using your thumb.

hopefully this time they can make it small right away instead of needing to re-release it a couple of times

It certainly sounds like they're trying, if the rumors about the power source being 150W are true. The "problem" is that humanity gets better at miniaturization for every year that passes, so in a few years Sony will realize that they are now able to both save production costs and reduce the console's size without sacrificing any of its power. It's inevitable, and not something they can really preempt.

Yeah but if they're gonna stream games I don't want to have to buy them again. This seems pretty lame.

No need to worry about that. The article states that you won't be able to transfer your games to the PS4, not that you'll lose them. They'll still be in your PSN account, so there's no reason why you'd have to be charged for them again whenever their streaming service is up and running. The point the article is making (and poorly at that) is that you won't simply be able to boot up your PS4, go to the PS Store and download your old PSN games.

Did any of the demos show use of the controller touchpad? I still can't picture how you're supposed to reach that thing with your thumbs to do anything other than use it as a gigantic button. The controller shape also doesn't seem suited to holding it up with one hand and using the other to do touchpaddery.

I had a similar reaction, but I think we're just approaching it wrong. I don't think it's supposed to be a way to control games, but will instead be used in the user interface. One of the big hurdles to home consoles being used for web browsing (for example) has been the lack of a mouse and keyboard. While the touchpad won't solve the keyboard part of the equation, at least it should cover for the mouse. You would use the touchpad in the same way you'd use one on a laptop, in other words not by using your thumb.

Good point, but I think that pesky 'leverage' thing will get in the way of holding it one hand and using the index finger of the other. I guess it depends on how sensitive the touchpad is and how light the controller is, but I imagine I'll be half resting the controller on my lap to use it the way you describe.

I also hope game developers can show restraint and not try to hamfist touchpad functions into their games.

Did any of the demos show use of the controller touchpad? I still can't picture how you're supposed to reach that thing with your thumbs to do anything other than use it as a gigantic button. The controller shape also doesn't seem suited to holding it up with one hand and using the other to do touchpaddery.

I had a similar reaction, but I think we're just approaching it wrong. I don't think it's supposed to be a way to control games, but will instead be used in the user interface. One of the big hurdles to home consoles being used for web browsing (for example) has been the lack of a mouse and keyboard. While the touchpad won't solve the keyboard part of the equation, at least it should cover for the mouse. You would use the touchpad in the same way you'd use one on a laptop, in other words not by using your thumb.

Good point, but I think that pesky 'leverage' thing will get in the way of holding it one hand and using the index finger of the other. I guess it depends on how sensitive the touchpad is and how light the controller is, but I imagine I'll be half resting the controller on my lap to use it the way you describe.

I also hope game developers can show restraint and not try to hamfist touchpad functions into their games.

Ha, remember all the six-axis turning controls in all the launch games!

Yeah but if they're gonna stream games I don't want to have to buy them again. This seems pretty lame.

No need to worry about that. The article states that you won't be able to transfer your games to the PS4, not that you'll lose them. They'll still be in your PSN account, so there's no reason why you'd have to be charged for them again whenever their streaming service is up and running. The point the article is making (and poorly at that) is that you won't simply be able to boot up your PS4, go to the PS Store and download your old PSN games.

if they're brought over as I imagine this also applies to PSN titles:

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Because the architecture of the Power-PC-based PS3 and x86-based PlayStation 4 are so different, Sony will only bring across games that don't guzzle the latest console's power in emulation.

as powerful as this is supposed to be that part about guzzling power is an odd thing to say. I guess they're just covering their arses.

Logged

Because I can,also because I don't care what you want.XBL: OriginalCeeKayWii U: CeeKay

Your hands aren't offset, why would you want the sticks to be? (As long as they aren't too close together)

My biggest gripes about the DS2/3 were that the triggers were awful and the grips are too small. Looks like the triggers will be better this time around (angle aside, Metallic). I have tiny little girl hands that can barely palm a golf ball and the grips on that controller gap feel too short to *me*. But then, I thought the boomerang looked great in that regard but everybody pissed and moaned about it. Go figure. How do people with actual man hands hold this thing?

Lair wasn't nearly as bad as people made it out to be. The biggest issue was that the game wouldn't accept motion commands while it was in the middle of the previous command, and some of the animations were lengthy. That left people shaking their controllers like idiots and thinking the controls weren't responsive. If the game had communicated this properly,it wouldn't have been panned so badly.