I watched a program called "Whales Wars", that basically followed groups after Japanese fishing boats, etc. What it turned out to be, was two groups fighting for "publicity" and air time, for photo ops, and donations. They openly try to push aside the other groups, and it's their own self promotion that comes first. The whales are a distant second......or make that about 9th or 10th.

As with most groups, it comes down to self justification, money, and running the business as a business, complete with filled pockets of the people in power.

And I agree with the site about hollywood types being hypocrites and liars. They are the first to tell you how to live. And then there are types like Al Gore, who talks about greenhouse gas and emissions, but he is the biggest pile of gas emitting "stuff" I have ever seen.

I am skeptic about any group out there. It never turns out the way they say, and it usually involves much secrecy, with your money they seek.

I don't like the mistreatment of animals any more than the next person. In fact I have a large dog that showed up out here a week ago. Too nice a dog to haul off to the pound so I am trying to find someone that might want the dog. I chain her up during the day so I can let the chickens out and turn her loose at night after the chickens go to bed. But there are a couple of other dogs that I will shoot if they come around at the wrong time.

But what I was going to say is, I believe animals are property and the owner has the right to do with their property as he/she sees fit. If there is such thing as animal rights over owner rights then we shouldn't be able to buy and sell them.

And those Japanese Whalers have the right to defend themselves. :-D

Logged

:rainbowflower: Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak. :rainbowflower:

jerrymac,I agree with your comments about "rights". Unfortunately, we live in a world full of idiots, people without empathy, or feelings.

I do not support or agree with such organizations as PETA, and barely tolerate other groups.

I live among some groups that fully believe that animals are property. And if not for certain laws of the land, they would extend that to children also. I see child labor under slave like conditions on farms every year. Some stand behind the bible on such matters. And the cruelty to animals makes me sick. I'm not going to call out other groups. Lets just say they are out there.

But whether you feel you have the right to beat your children, or your animals every day, I think it's wrong. If you can not be sympathetic, you should not have them. And although some may feel differently, I think that 6 year olds do not need to be forced into the fields to work, and that cats and dogs should not exist as long as they can fight off mange or blindness, while fending for themselves in the driveway of an owner who could not care, and then says it's God will.

If there are any rewards in heaven, I hope there is a special place for those who care for, and protect animals. And I hope there is another place for those that would take advantage of an animals dependence of their owner, and those that abuse children for their own profit and gratification.

I can only imagine how bad it would be IF NOT for any laws already on the books. If you can not feed, take care of, or respect an animal in your care, you should not have it. (and I'm not extending those comments to the next rainbow trout I catch... :-D )

A few years back, we had a situation where someone actually skinned a dog alive. And no way will I suggest that this person had a right because he was the owner. Regardless of what I may feel about "animal cops", I think such people should be put away.

When I was a senior in high school I worked as a milker on the local "Carnation" dairy. They delivered milk to your door. The Herdsman was the cruelest person I've ever met. He got great pleasure out of cutting the cows udders and stomachs with the can opener blade of his pocket knife. Every time he came into the barn I was sure to get kicked repeatedly and end up on my arse in the manure gutter. He was smart enough not to do the same thing to the bulls though. I finally quit after he came in one day and said, "I hear you don't like me using my knife on the cows," and then proceeded to go down the entire stantion line and cut every cow.

I will kill an animal for meat or to put it out of it's misery, but behavior like he demonstrated was undeniably cruel. He treated people with the same contempt though he didn't use his knife on them.

Logged

Life is a school. What have you learned? :brian: The greatest danger to our society is apathy, vote in every election!

A few years back, we had a situation where someone actually skinned a dog alive. And no way will I suggest that this person had a right because he was the owner. Regardless of what I may feel about "animal cops", I think such people should be put away.

I agree with you, not only because it is wrong to mistreat animals that way, but foremost because any cretin that can do that kind of torture to an animal is only a small step away from trying it on a human child (or any human for that matter). I think Brian's herdsman can attest to that kind of cruelty.

But most animal "welfare" groups put animals way ahead of where they belong, they are just crazy. They'd rather kill them than let them be used by humans. The whole dog killing thing really had me shaking my head.

A few years back, we had a situation where someone actually skinned a dog alive. And no way will I suggest that this person had a right because he was the owner. Regardless of what I may feel about "animal cops", I think such people should be put away.

I agree with you, not only because it is wrong to mistreat animals that way, but foremost because any cretin that can do that kind of torture to an animal is only a small step away from trying it on a human child (or any human for that matter). I think Brian's herdsman can attest to that kind of cruelty.

But most animal "welfare" groups put animals way ahead of where they belong, they are just crazy. They'd rather kill them than let them be used by humans. The whole dog killing thing really had me shaking my head.

Rick

I agree Rick. Radical and extremism, has sent many of these groups beyond comprehension of mainstream support. PETA, who believes all animals should be "free" and that euthanasia is a better option, than be seen as an organization that actually adopts out animals, only shows this. But as with many things, it goes way to far and good ideas get warped with ego, greed, and other items.

you are talking about people who lived as we live 200 years ago? in that time, no family farm would have survived without all hands working. if that meant a 6 year old shoveling out the hen house, or picking weed in the field, so be it. in that day, a child drove a team of horses as soon as they were strong enough to control them. the handled the plow as soon as they had the weight and strength to handle it. schooling, for the most part, was done at home so that days could be spent in the field. it may have been a hard life, but it was not "cruelty" by the parents that led to it. there was no choice.

the children you speak of have a choice when they are older. they may leave. they may find that the outside world if far more cruel than time spent as a youngster picking in the fields!

as for cruelty to animals, i agree that it can be a problem. however, compared to having some group or the state decide what you can and can't do with your animals, those few who mistreat animals are a minor problem. define mistreatment. chances are, we all have different definitions. PETA for sure has one that is different from mine.

Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

I've learned to be very leery of extremism in any form. Extremist are whacked out in one way or another and cannot be trusted.

You are being a little extreme JP.

I will say it again. A person buys an animal... any animal.... it is then that person's property. A person has the right to do with his/her property as they see fit. Car, house, bicycle, dog, cat, mouse. Doesn't matter, it is their property.

Logged

:rainbowflower: Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak. :rainbowflower:

" I believe animals are property and the owner has the right to do with their property as he/she sees fit "

i can not speak for the writer, but i'd have to say that i agree. before you blow a gasget, let me explain my thinking.

i make a distinction between what is morally wrong, and what the state/peta/other wingnuts think is wrong. we would probably all agree that beating an animal is wrong, but define beating. i had a two year old mare that decided that body slamming me when i groomed her was fun. nothing i did worked, so i ended up taking a crop to her. problem solved. i considered that to be equal to herd punishment for misbehaving. PETA would have had me in jail.

we would not leave a child out in the rain, but right now, my horses and dogs are out in it. they have been cooped up for over a week, and out in the rain is kinder than another day in the barn. PETA would disagree.

for many years i showed cutting horses. PETA would like to see all equestrian sports banned.

when i was young, my mother strangled a sick kitten we found. there was no money for vet bills and killing the kitten was kinder. now, she might go to jail.

a family in oregon killed and buried an old dog that was suffering. they didn't do a good job of it and the neighbors found the dog still alive. the old man now must go to trial and faces jail time.

no doubt there are blurry areas in the moral arena. the question is who should decided these issues and how far should they be allowed to go. at one extreme we have no laws to protect the animals, and at the other, the state decides what we can and can't do with our animals. we are rapidly heading toward the latter extreme, and if i had to make a choice i'd favor no laws. most people have the best interest of their animals at heart. because a few do not, should we all be forced to work under the extreme laws that groups like PETA would have passed?

Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

As I said before, I don't like to cause an animal to suffer. But just for the sake of argument, I am kicking my dog up against the wall. Now how does that affect you? Did you pay for this dog? Are you going to pay the vet bills? Are you going to dig the hole to bury it when it dies? No you are not so why should you care about what I do to my dog.

Now if you really want this poor animal's torture to end why not offer to buy the dog from me?

My neighbor has horses. If I don't like the way they treat the horses I guess I could buy the horses from them. But it doesn't affect me any if they are out there mistreating them. I may not like it but so what. I don't like people butchering cars and turning them into bouncy lowriders. I hate it every time Hollywood blows up a fine antique car.

Animals in the wild suffer some really horrific things. People hunt animals in many different ways with varying degrees of efficiently killing painlessly. There are many things people do to animals in many different ways. Removing tails. Cropping ears. Castration. Killing to be butchered. Sure we would like to think we are doing it in the most humane way, but sometimes it just doesn't turn out that way.

A-N-I-M-A-L-S. Sometimes I feel people forget that that is what we are talking about.

Logged

:rainbowflower: Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak. :rainbowflower:

So many of you here agree with each other, that's nice. I do not. All beings should be respected and treated with consciousness in my humble opinion. But seriously, when I see how many humans are so cruel to each other, and seek a fighting faction rather than peaceful one, it doesn't surprise me that some might think of anything not human as "property" to do with what they wish...sad state of affairs for sure...PETA frustrates me with their "holier than thou-ness", but I also have a problem with the "kill the all and let God sort them out" theory...

I find it very disturbing all the time, effort and money spent on protecting animals from cruel people when there are children starving in the world. Just imagine if the money spent on saving one dog was instead used to save a child's life.

But I guess I really got my priorities out of whack. :roll:

Logged

:rainbowflower: Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak. :rainbowflower:

I had this old dog her name was frogger. I took her from these people who had her out with a litter of pup's. She was starved eye's sunk back in her head the temp's were around upper 20's for a week one pup was frozen. They went to jail and I got a dog and eight pups. Well when it was her time to have her put down the vet said it was going to be 125 dollars. I said I can do it for a nickel he told me that he would call the police and it was inhumane to shoot my dog. So I took my dog home drank 16 beer's and said my good buys hugged my dog and then put her down. As I type this I have tears in my eye's.

I've learned to be very leery of extremism in any form. Extremist are whacked out in one way or another and cannot be trusted.

You are being a little extreme JP. Really, I don't think so.

Quote from Jerrymac: "My neighbor has horses. If I don't like the way they treat the horses I guess I could buy the horses from them. But it doesn't affect me any if they are out there mistreating them. I may not like it but so what."

Quote from Jerrymac: "I don't like the mistreatment of animals any more than the next person."

I would argue based on your above statement that you care for animals less than the average person and that if an animal is being beaten and suffering as long as its not your animal its ok by you. Scary.

All beings should be respected and treated with consciousness in my humble opinion

absolutely true statement. my question is who will decide, based on what criteria, what is cruelty and what is not. it's a bit like the spanking children debate, and even the internet filter debate. would we rather put up with some bad stuff, or put up with a lot of government control influenced by fruit cakes?

we, as individuals, might take care of abuse when we see it, but if i take a pipe to my neighbors kneecaps when he beats his dog, i'll go to jail.

we don't step in anyway. we let people be assaulted on the street and kids be abused. after all, it's the governments job to take care of these things, no ours.

Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....