Cornfed wrote:Here is a tract which touches on how the software industry is now largely a scam. It is not surprising that females and other incompetents like managers who can't read code can flourish in such an environment given that the whole enterprise is a joke to begin with. In this sense the outsourcing of the industry to wogs could be seen as a positive step. Paying people less to do nothing is a step towards paying people nothing to do nothing, i.e. giving up.

I agree with this, but it isn't just the software industry that is scam. Basically all of modern corporate culture is a scam and produces nothing. Virtually everything produced is either made abroad in places like China or is made by Western men (not women) outside of the corporate world. Here is a good book that explains how dysfuntional the corporate world is:

Note that this book is written by a woman who actually believes in the corporate system. Only a woman would be so delusional to believe in such a system, so only a woman could have written this book, and I thank her for it.

fschmidt wrote:I agree with this, but it isn't just the software industry that is scam. Basically all of modern corporate culture is a scam and produces nothing. Virtually everything produced is either made abroad in places like China or is made by Western men (not women) outside of the corporate world. Here is a good book that explains how dysfuntional the corporate world is:

Note that this book is written by a woman who actually believes in the corporate system. Only a woman would be so delusional to believe in such a system, so only a woman could have written this book, and I thank her for it.

Given the diseased nature of the culture, it is hardly surprising that so many whorporate staff are spiritual lepers mouthing PC shibboleths like publicduende. It is unfortunate that corporations are allowed to hire inherently useless people to kiss the upper management's asses rather than hiring actual talented human beings and giving them meaningful mind-feeding projects, even if there is not currently an economic rationale for the projects. I wonder what will be done with all the bootlicking parasitical freaks when their system finally brings about its own destruction. I can't imagine them fitting into normal human society.

fschmidt wrote:I agree with this, but it isn't just the software industry that is scam. Basically all of modern corporate culture is a scam and produces nothing. Virtually everything produced is either made abroad in places like China or is made by Western men (not women) outside of the corporate world. Here is a good book that explains how dysfuntional the corporate world is:

Note that this book is written by a woman who actually believes in the corporate system. Only a woman would be so delusional to believe in such a system, so only a woman could have written this book, and I thank her for it.

Given the diseased nature of the culture, it is hardly surprising that so many whorporate staff are spiritual lepers mouthing PC shibboleths like publicduende. It is unfortunate that corporations are allowed to hire inherently useless people to kiss the upper management's asses rather than hiring actual talented human beings and giving them meaningful mind-feeding projects, even if there is not currently an economic rationale for the projects. I wonder what will be done with all the bootlicking parasitical freaks when their system finally brings about its own destruction. I can't imagine them fitting into normal human society.

It would help for you to know more about the corporate world, the software industry, women and myself before laying a judgment like the one above. I don't even know where to start commenting on such a dense ball of BS. Maybe society is going towards its demise and all these spiritual lepers mouthing PC shibboleths will have justice. In the meantime, it's people like you, spitting sentences against everything and everyone from their basement chairs while raking up welfare checks that pay for their pizzas and Internet, who won't fit into normal human society. The biggest risk of a professional hater like you, Cornfed, is that you become what you hate, without even realising it.

publicduende wrote: It would help for you to know more about the corporate world, the software industry, women and myself before laying a judgment like the one above. I don't even know where to start commenting on such a dense ball of BS. Maybe society is going towards its demise and all these spiritual lepers mouthing PC shibboleths will have justice. In the meantime, it's people like you, spitting sentences against everything and everyone from their basement chairs while raking up welfare checks that pay for their pizzas and Internet, who won't fit into normal human society. The biggest risk of a professional hater like you, Cornfed, is that you become what you hate, without even realising it.

I'm not on welfare. People who actually are on the state dole are a much higher class of being than those in whorporate welfare jobs since they consume less resources, are available for actual work, don't have to go around spreading the cancer of political correctness and aren't crowding talented and useful people out of the system.

This is one of the most sexist and frankly annoying posts I have ever seen.

First off, being a male does not give you some special advantage in writing computer software. None.

I can list many, many women that I know, personally and professionally, who are excellent programmers. My Software development division of my company, while probably 80% men, has some of the best programmers I've met who are female. The are more proficient than many of the men who work here and contribute a lot to our company. I've known both of them to win hackathons we go to, to beat out all the men at coding competitions we have here at work, and to write straight up good code.

One of my best female friends writes code for robots in the medical field, and mentors high school robotics teams in her free time. Another woman I know codes games for her kids in her spare time.

Don't try to tell me females cant program.

I will say that I have met woman who are bad programmers. But I have also met plenty of men who are shit programmers, so that is hardly a decent argument.

If you look at any big technology firms (Facebook, Google, etc.) they all hire plenty of women, and many are also specifically seeking out women to work at their company.

If you're going to say something so stupid at least have some decent points to back up your argument.

lmd12358 wrote:This is one of the most sexist and frankly annoying posts I have ever seen.

First off, being a male does not give you some special advantage in writing computer software. None.

Being a man means that I have ~ 6 times the grey matter of you insect-brained females and don't think any hysterical hormone-driven emotions I happen to have define reality. That is an advantage in creative pursuits.

I can list many, many women that I know, personally and professionally, who are excellent programmers.

Fine, then you should be able to answer an earlier question in this thread and list a few females who are well known coders of open source software. That is the acid test of course, because while whorporations can hire female "programers" just because they have a vagina, to be well known in open source software you have to actually write workable code. You could also list innovative programs the females you mention have actually written, rather than just talk about what they are nominally hired to do.

Cornfed wrote:Fine, then you should be able to answer an earlier question in this thread and list a few females who are well known coders of open source software. That is the acid test of course, because while whorporations can hire female "programers" just because they have a v****a, to be well known in open source software you have to actually write workable code. You could also list innovative programs the females you mention have actually written, rather than just talk about what they are nominally hired to do.

An interesting article. It seems that women are indeed under-represented in the open source software community. That is though not much of an argument in favour of women being inferior software developers than men. It's just a fact of life.

The scarcity of women, however, at this conference and on this project, wasnâ€™t surprising. Women are estimated to represent 3% of open source contributors. In the US today, women represent 25% of all software developers and 18% of students currently graduating with computer science degrees. The participation of women in open source is particularly low even when compared to the already low participation of women in computer science.

publicduende wrote: An interesting article. It seems that women are indeed under-represented in the open source software community. That is though not much of an argument in favour of women being inferior software developers than men.

Of course it is. Open source coders are people with the ability and inclination to code. Corporate "programers" and the people the powers that be choose to hire to fulfil their warped political agendas. By examining the difference we can tell who the real coders are and aren't.

But what reason does the article give for female non-participation in open source? They are "afraid that other members will not treat them respectfully" (i.e. shower them with effusive praise for being female). LOL, since when do talented men run scared from something they are deeply interested in just because everyone else may not bend over backwards to massage their egos? And I thought females were supposed to be strong and independent. I can't believe anyone takes crap like this seriously.

Cornfed wrote:Of course it is. Open source coders are people with the ability and inclination to code. Corporate "programers" and the people the powers that be choose to hire to fulfil their warped political agendas. By examining the difference we can tell who the real coders are and aren't.

Well this is another one of your myths. Lots of very good developers work on open source of free of charge projects released on the various Google Code, CodeProject, Codeplex etc. But don't forget that the same developers have to pay their bills, which means they work on commercial projects, more often than not in large corporations. I know plenty of very good developers who work, like me, in various financial institutions and love to work evenings and weekends on various pet projects, websites or mobile apps chiefly, most of which are regularly released to the public free of charge or in the open source community.

Why oh why you have to see corporate evil everywhere, it's beyond me.

Cornfed wrote:But what reason does the article give for female non-participation in open source? They are "afraid that other members will not treat them respectfully" (i.e. shower them with effusive praise for being female). LOL, since when do talented men run scared from something they are deeply interested in just because everyone else may not bend over backwards to massage their egos? And I thought females were supposed to be strong and independent. I can't believe anyone takes crap like this seriously.

Consider that the above article stays within a narrow definition of open source. Open source ain't just Linux stuff anymore. It's web stuff, Microsoft stuff, let alone other IT resources such as design and styles, online courses. If you consider the broader "free stuff" market, the number of women involved does rise. I couldn't give you the exact figures, but I can guarantee you that rise it does.

publicduende wrote:Well this is another one of your myths. Lots of very good developers work on open source of free of charge projects released on the various Google Code, CodeProject, Codeplex etc. But don't forget that the same developers have to pay their bills, which means they work on commercial projects, more often than not in large corporations. I know plenty of very good developers who work, like me, in various financial institutions and love to work evenings and weekends on various pet projects, websites or mobile apps chiefly, most of which are regularly released to the public free of charge or in the open source community.

Perfectly consistent with what I said. Some corporate programmers are good and work on OS projects, but despite the fact that many corporate programmers are female, virtually none of them work on OS projects. Conclusion: virtually no female programmers are any good. QED.

publicduende wrote:Well this is another one of your myths. Lots of very good developers work on open source of free of charge projects released on the various Google Code, CodeProject, Codeplex etc. But don't forget that the same developers have to pay their bills, which means they work on commercial projects, more often than not in large corporations. I know plenty of very good developers who work, like me, in various financial institutions and love to work evenings and weekends on various pet projects, websites or mobile apps chiefly, most of which are regularly released to the public free of charge or in the open source community.

Perfectly consistent with what I said. Some corporate programmers are good and work on OS projects, but despite the fact that many corporate programmers are female, virtually none of them work on OS projects. Conclusion: virtually no female programmers are any good. QED.

You're still not proving anything mate. Many good developers are active in the open source community, but that doesn't mean all developers who don't do OS stuff (including most women) are no good! Do you need a couple of Venn diagrams to understand this simple logic?

I think working and delivering to the open source community requires a certain mindset: you must be an idealistic person, enjoy collaborating with large and ever-changing teams dispersed the world over, and most importantly have plenty of spare time and the willingness to spend it indoor coding away. Bar some rare example of uber-geeks, women want to spend their spare time doing something else, including the things we men find trivial and boring: shopping, taking care of ourselves, reading books, cooking. This even before we start accounting with the time they spend being mothers, wives and take care of the house!

As you can see there are reasons why women aren't generally too preoccupied with proving their professional worth outside the designated office hours. None of those reason makes them less capable than men.

publicduende wrote:I think working and delivering to the open source community requires a certain mindset: you must be an idealistic person, enjoy collaborating with large and ever-changing teams dispersed the world over, and most importantly have plenty of spare time and the willingness to spend it indoor coding away. Bar some rare example of uber-geeks, women want to spend their spare time doing something else, including the things we men find trivial and boring: shopping, taking care of ourselves, reading books, cooking. This even before we start accounting with the time they spend being mothers, wives and take care of the house!

publicduende wrote:I think working and delivering to the open source community requires a certain mindset: you must be an idealistic person, enjoy collaborating with large and ever-changing teams dispersed the world over, and most importantly have plenty of spare time and the willingness to spend it indoor coding away. Bar some rare example of uber-geeks, women want to spend their spare time doing something else, including the things we men find trivial and boring: shopping, taking care of ourselves, reading books, cooking. This even before we start accounting with the time they spend being mothers, wives and take care of the house!

Couldn't have put it better myself.

It is a fair point that many(definitely not all, but many) women DO enjoy shopping cooking, etc. However you could argue the same point for men. Many if not most men enjoy sports, video games(males claim the video game industry is male dominated and most consider girls 'fake gamers'), watching TV, etc. You might not consider them to be 'trivial and boring', but they are just as much of a time-suck as shopping, taking care of ourselves, etc. You cannot honestly say men spend more time coding because they do less 'trivial' activities. Totally incorrect. There are some activities that are socially more of a woman's job like taking care of the children, but that is actually changing, slowly for sure, but it is getting more and more common for men to take of the kids. Plus there are many women who are single and don't have kids or whose kids are off at college and don't rely on their mothers anymore. So while being a mother/wife may effect some women, it most definitely does not effect all women.

"you must be an idealistic person, enjoy collaborating with large and ever-changing teams dispersed the world over, and most importantly have plenty of spare time and the willingness to spend it indoor coding away"

I don't see how this is a 'male' thing. Why can women not be idealistic or enjoy working with ever-changing teams? And willingness to be inside coding has nothing to do with gender, but personality.

publicduende wrote:I think working and delivering to the open source community requires a certain mindset: you must be an idealistic person, enjoy collaborating with large and ever-changing teams dispersed the world over, and most importantly have plenty of spare time and the willingness to spend it indoor coding away. Bar some rare example of uber-geeks, women want to spend their spare time doing something else, including the things we men find trivial and boring: shopping, taking care of ourselves, reading books, cooking. This even before we start accounting with the time they spend being mothers, wives and take care of the house!

Couldn't have put it better myself.

It is a fair point that many(definitely not all, but many) women DO enjoy shopping cooking, etc. However you could argue the same point for men. Many if not most men enjoy sports, video games(males claim the video game industry is male dominated and most consider girls 'fake gamers'), watching TV, etc. You might not consider them to be 'trivial and boring', but they are just as much of a time-suck as shopping, taking care of ourselves, etc. You cannot honestly say men spend more time coding because they do less 'trivial' activities. Totally incorrect. There are some activities that are socially more of a woman's job like taking care of the children, but that is actually changing, slowly for sure, but it is getting more and more common for men to take of the kids. Plus there are many women who are single and don't have kids or whose kids are off at college and don't rely on their mothers anymore. So while being a mother/wife may effect some women, it most definitely does not effect all women.

"you must be an idealistic person, enjoy collaborating with large and ever-changing teams dispersed the world over, and most importantly have plenty of spare time and the willingness to spend it indoor coding away"

I don't see how this is a 'male' thing. Why can women not be idealistic or enjoy working with ever-changing teams? And willingness to be inside coding has nothing to do with gender, but personality.

lmd12358 wrote:This is one of the most sexist and frankly annoying posts I have ever seen.

First off, being a male does not give you some special advantage in writing computer software. None.

Being a man means that I have ~ 6 times the grey matter of you insect-brained females and don't think any hysterical hormone-driven emotions I happen to have define reality. That is an advantage in creative pursuits.

This has no scientific standing whatsoever and I'd love to see your proof. And 'i read it in an article at one point' is never proof.

I can list many, many women that I know, personally and professionally, who are excellent programmers.

Fine, then you should be able to answer an earlier question in this thread and list a few females who are well known coders of open source software. That is the acid test of course, because while whorporations can hire female "programers" just because they have a v****a, to be well known in open source software you have to actually write workable code. You could also list innovative programs the females you mention have actually written, rather than just talk about what they are nominally hired to do.