Posted
by
timothyon Monday May 23, 2011 @09:23PM
from the knice-klean-look dept.

mukt77 writes "The Muon Suite has been chosen to be the default package manager for Kubuntu 11.10, the Oneiric Ocelot. By the time Kubuntu 11.10 is released the Muon Suite will have had its first birthday. In this year I believe that the Muon Suite has vetted itself, proving to be a robust package manager as well as a stable set of applications. With my Kubuntu developer hat on, I believe that it was a good move to wait a bit before jumping on the 'latest and greatest' for its shininess value, though I can't deny that it would have been neat to have the Muon Suite included a bit sooner."

From what I've read about Muon, it should eliminate having to worry about how to skin Synaptic to integrate with the rest of the KDE desktop. It always seemed odd that it was such a hard to thing to code up a graphical dselect (yes, I know dselect and apt are different).

Now if they make a good replacement for nm-applet, I can have an all-KDE system.

dunno, i always install synaptic on a Kubuntu system. pity its a Gtk app and drags lots of Gnome stuff in,i cant stand Gnome or Gtk - its too dumbed down and old fashioned looking for me, so, a new QT app,will be a welcome improvement.. about time Kubuntu got some preference anyway.. hope Muon has a good search..

Same here, nothing wrong with having a few Gnome packing in your system. I also use KxStudio on top of Kubuntu, so I bring a load of packages in from there too. Who really care what packages you have in your distro? it's what you do with it that counts:D

Just went to download Kbuntu as I haven't used a KDE environment for a while, and figured I'd stick it on an older laptop. I hit up the download page, and after selecting the version and 32-bit, I click "Begin Download" in Chrome.. and nothing happens!

Still a feature-starved sparse looking uninspired clone of USC (which still has a kludgey unfinished feel), copying the abysmal rating system. Desktop linux could benefit greatly from a decent App Store.

I really wish developers would actually take a look at competitors are doing and get some inspiration.

Taking a look at, for example: Mac App Store, Android Market web store, Intel's App-up, Chrome Web App store, even AllMyApps for windows is a good one to look at. Even Linux Mint's App portal is a good effort.

Linux has had good package management and delivery for a long long time, all it's been missing is a good, navigable and appealing front end for it.

Why do I need an App Store? I have never needed an App Store in my entire life. Free software can be downloaded from websites, non-free software can be purchased from its maker or third party vendors. What is the problem this solves?

Linux has had package management front ends for years and they work just fine.

Ease of use. Apps can be free (check out the apple store, lots of good free apps). Things like my bank, Netflix, etc all make free apps to make their products more attractive to us iDevice users. You may have no problem finding source, compiling, installing dependencies, etc. but 99% of the world just wants their computer(s) to work. Also in theory it makes comparing software easier as you'd have rankings/etc. I know when I go look at Mozilla plugins I appreciate the interface somewhat, comparing the last p

The problem this will solve, if implemented well, is basically cutting down on tech un-savvy users installing malware, and maybe for the rest of us, ease of updating, with a nice GUI. I think an app store should allow apps to be sold/downloaded easily, but certain apps can be scrutinized/audited, and given a certificate/badge of "goodness" that less technical users can use as a guide to what's safe to dowload. The rest of us will benefit from fewer botnet zombies pumping out spam and DDOS attacks, and frien

Maybe tablet Linux needs a neat app-store, but my desktop runs just fine with Synaptic. Can install/remove packages in seconds, can see what I have installed, explore the repo. by searching for specific subject matter etc.

Refinements are always welcome, but I think every desktop Linux user for the immediate future is going to favour efficiency at the top of the learning curve over intuitivity at the bottom, any day of the week: why else would they think about using Linux?

Refinements are always welcome, but I think every desktop Linux user for the immediate future is going to favour efficiency at the top of the learning curve over intuitivity at the bottom, any day of the week: why else would they think about using Linux?

THIS.

I don't mind improvements to the DEs. I don't care if some distros want to go full retard. But you can pry my bash commands and the ability to configure every part of my system with a basic text editor from my cold dead hands.

Ignorant is not the same as retarded btw, nor should anyone have to use the command line just to install an application. That's just as retarded as only ever using lynx and mail for web browsing and email.

I'm perfectly comfortable with apt on the command line if I know what I'm looking for, but these software centres are a nice way of finding new/alternative software - they often include screenshots, descriptions, ratings and user reviews.

Have you looked at the one that comes with Ubuntu (not Synaptic, but the actual Software Centre)? It actually compares favourably with all of the examples you've given, and is nicer than some, I think.

I've always been a little curious - what do all these package management front-ends actually do?

When I want to install a package, I do: apt-get install <name-of-package-i-want>

Help you find name-of-package-i-want, if you already know that then no front end is going to make it easier. Categories, ratings, descriptions, searches... yes, it's pretty much all possible with the command line and clever use of grep but it's supposed to be the easy and intuitive way to get from "I have some vague notion of what I want" to "I'll try installing name-of-package-i-probably-want".

I don't have any experience with Ubuntu, but I am certain there exist something equivalent to "emerge -S " and "ls/usr/portage/".

Also, user reviews sound quite useless for me (though it may be useful for others even if I can't see why). When I want a type of program but don't know which one, I just emerge a bunch of programs of that category and see which one I like the best.

App Store? Are you completely out of your mind? Or did you never ever use Linux or a package manager in your life?

Linux systems have package managers.App Stores (which actually don't even sell apps, since that is physically impossible, but give out licenses) are, what you get, when you take a package management system, and rape it with the delusion that one could own information.This results in centralization, and weird ways of dealing with software. As if it was physical matter.

Looking at your short example, I have no idea what the available categories are, or how queries should be formed. I don't know what the switches a t and v do. That I should have to re-learn this kind of thing for a new package manager every time I want to try a new distro is pretty absurd. If I like the distro, then I will learn its arbitrary quirks.

Not only does Linux have the mother of all "App Stores" forever, no, that mother is also still mentally healthy

Assume for a moment that the user can figure out 1. that the commands are eix and emerge and 2. how to navigate to man eix and man emerge. Now how does your Linux "app store" handle payment for apps that by their nature can't very well be free [pineight.com]? Google gentoo emerge payment didn't turn up anything useful.

Ubuntu has an App Store. It is called Ubuntu Software Center. Gives you one-click installation and both free and paid (not that many indeed) apps. So what is the point? I actually think that Apple copied the app store idea from package management in Linux, which existed much before.

muon [mjun]n(Physics / General Physics) a positive or negative elementary particle with a mass 207 times that of an electron and spin ½. It was originally called the mu meson but is now classified as a lepton.

Good lord! Enough with package managers/packaging systems/new frontends.. They're like paint programs in Linux. 15 half-assed ones but not one single great one, because every developer with NIH feels like he has to create another one because 'nobody else has these features.' ENOUGH ALREADY! at this point, it has nothing to do with choice and everything to do with developer ego and NIH.

It's just a frigging package manager/frontend/system. Can we get past this already?!?!?!?!

Seriously, this is why Vista's failure didn't hurt Microsoft. Linux devs are too busy reinventing the wheel every 6 months. Devs will get 80% there and then stop and then all the other devs decide they know a better way to do it, and they get (if they're lucky) 80% there and stop. rinse and repeat.

And don't give me that "If you don't like it, you don't have to use it." Now instead of 15 half-assed ones, we have 16 half-assed ones. Kubuntu will use it, no one else will, and users have to learn yet another interface.

I feel you. But, it is expecting a bit too much to expect all of them to work on one project for no money. Most people work for either feeding their stomach or feeding their ego. The exceptions are few in number, and not for small pieces of software like this.

Muon is a front-end for apt. It looks pretty. However there is a very popular and good front-end for apt called Synaptic. It is installed by default in most Ubuntu installations. So while there is a popular and well supported package management tool that is also stable, there are some up-coming contenders for KDE. Competition has always been good for Linux, and it is part of what makes Linux continue to be awesome in spite of its lack of resources.

NIH isn't competition.

Package management in general is not like a paint program. Good package management is an open research question, as it is so difficult to balance a truly time-traveling OS instance that doesn't suffer from OS rot, security vulnerabilities, or user unfriendliness. Its not so simple that some one can just git 'er done as you seem to suggest. So no, its very hard to move past it. Android has been suffering from security vulnerabilities, Apple has an active committee that must review (and censor) applications, and despite all this there are still security vulnerabilities, fragmentation, and OS rot (you just throw the device out in 1.5-2 years).

I say again. Bullpucky!1) git 'er done. - I never said this.2) hard to move past - Nope. I don't believe this.3) open research project. Where is real research being done in this area? What I see are people doing the same thing over and over again, with either a different toolkit or rearranging buttons on the GUI version or renaming parameters in the cmdline version.

OS X on the other hand has no package management, and no, their.app format is a poor replacement. Try uninstalling "anti-virus" software, Microsoft Office, or any other reasonably complex program. They all have their own uninstaller scripts with root privilege and just mow over the machine, so cross your fingers and pray basically.

Don't care. Not pertinent to this discussion.

Honestly, you should probably just stick with one of the big distros like Ubuntu or RHEL, they are very good, have good package management, and it sounds like you don't really want to get involved in some of these more subtle (but important!) details. Thats fine, there is a distro for you, just go use it and stop complaining about what is really not a problem.

Yeah, I'm quietly hoping that this'll be the graphical package manager that isn't half-assed or overcomplicated. The one that finally gets me to stop using apt-get at the comment line. The one that succeeds where three or four others have failed.

I'm also hoping that the current Linux sound infrastructure will some day be the one that actually works reliably. Again, the one that succeeds where three or four others have failed.

KDE seems to suffer terribly from re-writer's disease. They'll write a good piece of software, possibly lacking a few features and a bit buggy in places. Rather than polish it and fill in the gaps, they nearly always decider to write something Newer and Better.

Almost invariably the new application won't be the latter, because immature software tends to lack a few features and be a bit buggy in places.

I still prefer KDE to Gnome, and Kubuntu is my main desktop, but I really wish the developers would settle down and get a bit less skittish.

KDE seems to suffer terribly from re-writer's disease. They'll write a good piece of software, possibly lacking a few features and a bit buggy in places. Rather than polish it and fill in the gaps, they nearly always decider to write something Newer and Better.

There is some irony to be found in the fact that you didn't pay attention long enough to notice this has nothing to do with KDE. Nobody has said KDE will be switching. Heck half the KDE-based distros I've seens didn't even switch to KPackageKit.

I find the product to be fairly robust and the developer has been pretty darned responsive - I had enough issues with 11.04 that I went back to Debian, but I digress;-)

synaptic is still my go-to gooey package manager. Functionally I don't think synaptic is any better than muon and I'm not sure whether it's my own prejudices or the GUI really could use a little help, but I find muon a bit more difficult to use than synaptic. IMO GUI design is an art form anyway - and not a skill that all developers posses

All work on KDE should stop immediately and until KDE Network Manager Widget is rewritten from scratch, and the people responsible for the current version banned from any sort of software development more complex than Hello World.
I wish, so much, that I was wrong or exaggerating.

I use Kubuntu 11.04 and Linux Mint 10 KDE, and it's not that bad, but it could definitely use some work.

However, one place where it totally fails is with VPNs, which are pretty much a necessity in many workplaces (I work from home and have to use one to access the SVN repo at work). KDE's Notwork Manager is supposed to work with VPNs, and looks very pretty when it shows a VPN connection, but it doesn't work at all, at least not with Cisco VPNs (vpnc). There's an alternate program called KVpnc which has a