I wonder what you can buy at the Catholic Shop? "I'll have two small Catholics please"

"Yeah ... make 'em real ROMAN Catholics too, this time. I don't want you passing off any Episcopalians on me like you did last time, and DON'T even think about any Unitarian Universalists. They all smell like coffee."

Seriously, Catholic supply stores like that are everywhere in the Buffalo region. They carry things like framed pictures of the Pope, rosary beads, candles, liturgical books, Virgin Mary statues, and the like. Buffalonians are quite serious about their faith.

Buffalo has the second highest percentage of Catholics of any city in the US; Providence is a bit higher. Think of it this way: Buffalo is the 43rd largest metropolitan area in the US, with 1,170,111 residents. 622,786 of 830,500 counted -- 75% of all those that belong to a church -- are Catholic (http://www.thearda.com). New Zealand --- the entire country, excluding sheep -- has 538,091 Catholics (http://www.adherents.com/adhloc/Wh_240.html).

I wasn't kidding. Now you Kiwis better start praying, or be prepared to spend a long time in the damp, somewhat cool recesses of Purgatory!

Growth for growth's sake is the ideology of the cancer cell. -- Edward Abbey

Seriously, Catholic supply stores like that are everywhere in the Buffalo region. They carry things like framed pictures of the Pope, rosary beads, candles, liturgical books, Virgin Mary statues, and the like. Buffalonians are quite serious about their faith.

Buffalo has the second highest percentage of Catholics of any city in the US; Providence is a bit higher. Think of it this way: Buffalo is the 43rd largest metropolitan area in the US, with 1,170,111 residents. 622,786 of 830,500 counted -- 75% of all those that belong to a church -- are Catholic
<snip>

I wasn't kidding. Now you Kiwis better start praying, or be prepared to spend a long time in the damp, somewhat cool recesses of Purgatory!

Dan, I grew up in a raging catholic family... none of those pictures of catholic stores, bumper stickers, or mary statues in the yard (my dad has one next to his american flag) are surprising. My my hometown claims to be 60% catholic. There's 4 catholic parishes serving 14,000 people.

Dan, I grew up in a raging catholic family... none of those pictures of catholic stores, bumper stickers, or mary statues in the yard (my dad has one next to his american flag) are surprising. My my hometown claims to be 60% catholic. There's 4 catholic parishes serving 14,000 people.

Can someone explain to me why this is a problem?

SOME say the world will end in fire, Some say in ice.
From what I’ve tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice, I think I know enough of hate
To know that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.

Seriously, Catholic supply stores like that are everywhere in the Buffalo region. They carry things like framed pictures of the Pope, rosary beads, candles, liturgical books, Virgin Mary statues, and the like. Buffalonians are quite serious about their faith.

It's definitely not a problem. It's just interesting from a demographic standpoint; the makeup of such regions is probably little changed from the turn of the last century, when there was still widespread immigration from western Europe. That, or there's the presence of very large Hispanic communities. It also lends to an ideological dynamic that's very unusual; In Buffalo's case it's politically very liberal, with Republicans being more centrist than what you might encounter elsewhere, but socially very conservative.

On paper I'm Lutheran, but spending roughly the first two and a half decades of my life in Buffalo, I knew very few Protestants outside of church and my immediate family. I went to a Catholic elementary school, and can say speedy Hail Marys with the best of them. It's been said that you can be Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, Hundu or Buddhist in Buffalo, but you'll still grow up Catholic. Dad's Jewish, and he loves his Friday fish fry.

Growth for growth's sake is the ideology of the cancer cell. -- Edward Abbey

Ah, The Gateway in SLC. A pseudo walkabale community for those who live there. Been there a few times. Still has the perception of a Disney back lot. My perception is there is nothing out of the ordinary at The Gateway.

Still OT: Thanks, Dan and Boiker. Dan, I have always enjoyed your (and Rumpy's) descriptions of Buffalo; they are very focused on the personal aspects of living there and make me want to visit myself (I hope I will be able to do so one day). My own experience has been that many of the cities that are generally considered backwaters (like Buffalo) are often pretty cool places (Peoria also comes to mind).

Boiker, I know a few other cities in the Midwest similar to the one you grew up in, where Catholic heritage and culture are strong, such as Quincy, IL and Dubuque, IA. Wonderful places; those folks usually have a great love of their heritage and they work hard to preserve it.

Also OT: Dan, what tag do you use to make the "off-topic" frame?

SOME say the world will end in fire, Some say in ice.
From what I’ve tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice, I think I know enough of hate
To know that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.

"Growth is inevitable and desirable, but destruction of community character is not. The question is not whether your part of the world is going to change. The question is how." -- Edward T. McMahon, The Conservation Fund

Still OT: Thanks, Dan and Boiker. Dan, I have always enjoyed your (and Rumpy's) descriptions of Buffalo; they are very focused on the personal aspects of living there and make me want to visit myself (I hope I will be able to do so one day).

You're welcome. Arrrrrrrr!

Growth for growth's sake is the ideology of the cancer cell. -- Edward Abbey

Not one of them attempts to defend or support retail centers like this. I understand the nature of criticism but these are not surprising reactions to the marketplace and the demand for convenient retail and other services.

I don't understand the sheer meanness however. I hate to break it to the group but yuppies are generally defined as people who have acheived a high level of education and then a high level of success in a chosen profession. Why the jealousy?

The suburbs are the suburbs, not walkable by design and not generally possible when, like it or not, a large majority of people who think differently than planners desire a different lifestyle than most Planners want them to have.

Get over it already.

Of course if we got over it, then these boards would have to close because we would no longer have anything to complain about.

Don't you guys get tired of marching in lock step? In one thread we covered all the bases:

Not one of them attempts to defend or support retail centers like this.

I disagree with this implication.....I believe that PlannerGirl and I both mentioned the Arlington, VA center, that it had won an APA award, and that as an infill project, it was a good project.

The major objection here is, and pardon me for thinking it to be valid, is that these things plopped out in a greenfield have no relationship to the surrounding built environment.

[my opinion]I believe it is in the best interests of the community I serve, and have been backed up on that by the surveys and the officials the continue to get elected in my community, that I work to encourage the best possible development for the community. This includes looking at the character of the development, and it's relationship to the built environment around it. Most planners I know do what is in the best interests of the people they work for. If that means not plopping faux-urbanism on a greenfield, so be it.

I realize you're a private sector guy....but you sound more and more like O'Toole every time you come out of lurking to post (not that that's a bad thing). Engage in the debate.....don't just throw barbs at planners in general. [end my opinion]

"Growth is inevitable and desirable, but destruction of community character is not. The question is not whether your part of the world is going to change. The question is how." -- Edward T. McMahon, The Conservation Fund

Not one of them attempts to defend or support retail centers like this. I understand the nature of criticism but these are not surprising reactions to the marketplace and the demand for convenient retail and other services.

<SNIP>

Not trolling, really, just being rhetorical.

A) I counted 11 OT posts.
B) The quote below is a positive quote.
C) Me thinks thou art Trolling. (If you weren't, you could have argued "the merits" of such malls instead of simply attacking the planners, their right to discuss planning issues in a public forum, implying that they are all stupid, and so forth.)

Originally posted by Dan

Regardless of whether it's "fake urbanism," "better than a strip mall," ot its other perceived positive and/or negative effects, I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I think the presence of lifestyle centers, or the desires of developers to build them, are one indicator of an area's economy and the desirability of the area's retail market.

Remember this motto to live by: "Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming 'WOO- HOO what a ride!'"

I apologize to Dan. His comments I overlooked. I agree that the Arlington observation is not necessarily relevant, that is why I did not mention it.

At no time did I imply Planners are stupid, only the generally one-side nature of the discussions. But I do think the level of animosity toward others --(not me or other posters) but types--Mom's who drive suburbans, Yuppies etc...is heard far too often here.

Funny, no one seemed to mind SAC's "BARBS" regarding Yuppies, Planners who work for Developers etc...

NHP I think you have described your role perfectly and the debate about how and where we develop is timeless.

But I am fairly certain not everyone in your community shares identical perspectives.

You'd be surprised how much i actually agree on this one--In fact there is this awful main street faux lifestyle development here in the DC area called Bowie Center or somethng like that--that actually is sort of movie set--Main street with stores--then fields of parking behind.

Remember this motto to live by: "Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming 'WOO- HOO what a ride!'"

I've defended lifestyle centers in the past, as being better than traditional strip centers, but of those that usually participate in such threads, my opinion is usually in a very small minority; the prevailing poit-of-view seems to be that suburban development is suburban development and is therefore a Bad Thing, whether it's a big blue and grey concrete box that says WAL-MART on its side, or a modern interpretation of a Main Street that doesn't come from a cookie-cutter plan.

About 1.5 km from my house is Legacy Village.

As an urbanist, I would prefer to see more retail development in the inner city. However, as a planner representing an area where most development took place after World War II, I'd rather see a lifestyle center-type retail development -- at least the architectural and site design, if not the upscale occupants -- than a conventional strip. It definitely beats stuff like this ...

Growth for growth's sake is the ideology of the cancer cell. -- Edward Abbey

I would just like for the public sector folks to try and integrate why developers make business decisions in their own decision making processes.

Thats all.

That is a completely different issue from your original comment that

like it or not, a large majority of people who think differently than planners desire a different lifestyle than most Planners want them to have.

I have studied it a fair amount and I feel strongly that people choose a suburban lifestyle at least in part due to LACK of real choice. The post-WWII Federal government bent all of its policies and mortgage insurance, etc, towards supporting the baby-boom demand for small two-bedroom suburban houses in you typical Levittown setup. Now that the population has differentiated, our policies and institutions have failed to keep pace. In spite of how enormously difficult it is to do ANYTHING but suburban development, many people are financing co-housing and other alternative developments out of their own pockets to get around the lack of policy and other types of "infrastructure" (mortgages, mortgage insurance, etc) for supporting anything other than a single-family tract house.

Michele you make the perfect point. The market is attempting to diversify choice because there are people who do not want the suburban lifestyle as we have come to know it.

And I have always written that our whole profession should be advocates for encouraging lifestyle choices. I just think the profession has not done a good job of that.

I can not argue that it is and has been clear national policy for generations to support, encourage, subsidize homeownership. I just would argue it has been good public policy.

Full circle--yes many developers are using a marketing term "lifestyle centers" to sell a similar product. But just because it may or may not go on a greenfield does not mean its a terrible thing. Hell, Dan's right, its actually a sign of prosperity. The tax base increment is welcomed in many places as well. And it may be better than the parking lot with a strip center in it. But if it truly is, then we will all be redevloping strip centers soon.

I work in a City where a crappy regional mall is being converted to a "lifestyle center through public-private venture. The City is doing all the TIF stuff for infrastructure, lighting, building demolition, etc and the mall owner and a developer are financing the rest of the construction. The idea for the lifestyle center came from a visioning study where many residents said that the one thing that the community is lacking is a real downtown. We are an inner-ring suburb that never really established a downtown. The Mall had originally planned on just expanding the regular enclosed mall but the City worked with the mall and got them to do a lifestyle center.

In my opinion having a Disney-like downtown is much better than having no pedestrian friendly development at all. The visioning process and city-wide questionnaire demonstrated that people who live in the suburbs actually do feel that there is a lack of a sense of community and that they are unsatisfied with the auto-dependent status quo. The new lifestyle center mall is in a large area that is already somewhat pedestrian friendly. Once completed it will chance the face of the City for the better. The sea of asphalt will be replaced with pedestrian scaled buildings, walkways, and narrow streets. There will be several townhouse condos included in the development also. The added tax base will be icing on the cake. The mall is already the City’s largest taxpayer. Allowing it to fall into disrepair would put the city in a perilous economic situation.

"I'm a white male, age 18 to 49. Everyone listens to me, no matter how dumb my suggestions are."

My mom grew up starving in Germany during WWII and its aftermath. She basically thinks only "rich, spoiled Americans" can be so "stupidly biased" as to think material wealth is a BAD thing. There is a fundamental truth behind the idea of "being able to afford a middle class morality".

I am not against homeownership. But it is close to impossible for an ordinary American to own a home that isn't a stereotypical suburban house. And folks don't necessarily want that. They sometimes choose it because it is the path of least resistence or it is "the lesser evil". I don't think it IS "good public policy". It WAS good public policy post-WWII, while trying to make up for the huge deficit of housing stock which did not get built during the Great Depression.

My dad was born in 1924. He lived through the Great Depression. He was born in a log cabin with a dirt floor and he tells stories of "a large, poor family" he knew where the dad would say "Take big bites of corn bread and little sips of buttermilk" or "Take big sips of buttermilk and little bites of corn bread", depending upon what they had an abundance of. His family was not particularly "poor" -- but all of his clothes fit in a coffee box and on a couple of pegs on the wall. I once saw a picture of his kindergarten class. Half the kids were barefoot.

Between mom's childhood and dad's childhood, I grew up in a family where having a big meal on the table every night was the central unifying theme of our lives. I think materialism is great -- as long as you have your priorities straight. (Of course, I freak everyone out by being a Die Hard Optimist AND environmental studies major. Most folks seem to think I am obligated to be suicidally depressed about the state of the environment. )