Issue with Luke Skywalker Jedi Knight

17 posts in this topic

For a while now I have been wondering why Luke Jedi Knight wasnt fitting thematically with who he was in Episode VI, he costs less than vader while having less health and no clear advantage in dice and his ability isnt really a counter to Vaders in addition they even costed him less like he was intentionally made weaker then Vader and Luke WON in their battle in Episode VI even when he was refusing to fight he was able to stone wall vader so in theory he should both be more expensive and more powerful then Vader if at the very least not equally costed. Luke Jedi Knight is described a lot as the refinement of Vader with the Body of Anakin since he learned to mirrors vader's style and without vader's limitations allowing him to be quicker on his feet and more fluidly improvise in tough situations. The more I looked at Luke skywalker Jedi Knight in game and his interactions with Vader and most importantly the way he fits with Rieekan and Launch bay and T-47's and other characters the more I realized, this ISNT luke Skywalker Jedi knight.

This isnt Luke from Episode VI who largely did everything on his own, this is Luke from Episode V with an Episode VI title. He has a great interaction with all the Hoth stuff, he is clearly weaker then Darth Vader but not by a huge margin enough for Vader to respond "impressive, most impressive" but that's it. FFG seems to have this habit of undercutting Jedi Knight Luke making him less healthy and cheaper and like a bad mirror for hero rather then giving the due to the man that BEAT Vader. Who went the entirety of Episode VI basically doing everything on his own. The battle at Jabba's palace Han was blind, Lando fell off the skiff while fighting some guy, Chewie was trying to help Han save Lando and Leia was chained up. Luke basically took the entire barge on by himself, when it came to the speeders Luke was the one directing leia on how to use the thing then jumps off takes one out and then takes 2 more leaving only 1 for leia and then the rest of the movie he is BY HIM SELF turning vader while Vader takes Luke to the emperor for HELP in turning Luke. Sure Luke isnt as "physically tough" as Vader and he did mirror his style but that is only half true, while he is not as physically tough its because half his body ISNT made of cybernetics and he more then makes up for the lack of toughness with not being saddled with the mobility weaknesses vader has allowing him to Mirror Vader's refinement while still having the stamina and speed of anakin and when it comes down to strength vs Strength contest LUKE WON against Vader. Vader on the offense could not break through Luke's defenses even when he "lowered" them and had to bring them back up quick, its Luke that constantly pushes Vaders saber off and disengages the fight, and when the shoe is on the other foot, when Luke decides to bash at Vaders defenses, Vader collapses under the strengths of the blows. I think this Luke should be renamed into "luke skywalker, Jedi Padawan" or something to make room for a NEW Luke Skywalker Jedi Knight that actually fits who he was in episode VI rather then just cramming all the things people remember about him from Episode V and calling it like he is from Episode VI. Honestly what they have for Windu is closer to Luke Skywalker Jedi Knight then our current Luke.

Anyway likely nothing will be changed, but I hope FFG does take a step back and goes back and watches Episode VI again before they design another Jedi Knight version of Luke in another game. Remember he beat Vader and could have potentially taken on palpatine who had no lightsaber if he hadnt just tossed his away. Luke just always feels like he is designed second and specifically designed to be worse then vader which is the opposite of they way they should be designing Luke. They should be designing him to be stronger then Vader in a 1v1 contest but both should still be unique characters, because while their fighting style is similar their approaches are vastly different.

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RotJ isn't the best testament to the power levels of Luke/Vader. Neither wanted to kill the other. Vader was clearly impacted by the conversation with Luke on Endor. Vader also hated the Emperor and had no wish to deliver Luke to him. My opinion is Vader was still stronger than Luke. He had much more experience in Lightsaber dueling and his sheer dominance over Luke the last movie couldn't have been overcome in the year or less between Empire and Return.

I wish FFG would do legends canon and print a Luke that is Vader's superior. But, as it is, we'll probably get a 20/27 Luke from Last Jedi that is a slightly weaker version than the Emperor.

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RotJ isn't the best testament to the power levels of Luke/Vader. Neither wanted to kill the other. Vader was clearly impacted by the conversation with Luke on Endor. Vader also hated the Emperor and had no wish to deliver Luke to him. My opinion is Vader was still stronger than Luke. He had much more experience in Lightsaber dueling and his sheer dominance over Luke the last movie couldn't have been overcome in the year or less between Empire and Return.

I wish FFG would do legends canon and print a Luke that is Vader's superior. But, as it is, we'll probably get a 20/27 Luke from Last Jedi that is a slightly weaker version than the Emperor.

An opinion NOT shared by the movie or the novelization. Luke WAS Dominated in Episode V. I will never contest that clear as day, and in THAT movie Luke was going 100% all out against a man he believed be the incarnation of evil itself, not his father Vader, and in THAT movie Vader was holding back by comparison wanting to protect his son and turn him instead of kill him, however in Episode VI, like it or not make sense or not, both were on an even footing even though this time Luke was holding back as much as if not MORE then his father.

at 1:49 Vader is doing ALL of the attacking the Novelization makes it clear in Vader's head that he is PISSED that Luke got the better of him. Further Vader is trying as hard as he can to turn Luke to the dark side to do that he has to convince Luke that the Dark side IS stronger the fact that Luke who is not fighting back simply defending himself is still able to take control of the fight and disengage infuriates Vader because to do that he has to do his best to dominate Luke something he fails at doing every step of the way further the novelization also makes it clear that according to Vader this is the strongest he has ever felt, unlike the novelization of episode VII in which Kylo feels weaker after killing Han. Further the emperor only ever replaces an apprentice when one is killed or another becomes more powerful the Emperor himself acknowledges Luke being more powerful then Vader in the end. The novelization AND the movie both make it clear that Luke and Vader came into this on an even footing unlike last time. Last time Luke was out to get the man that killed his father and Vader was out to convert his son Luke was going all out and Vader was going easy and Vader had the upper hand, but this time they both knew the truth they were both trying to convert the other and this time Luke dominated the fight from start to finish, even if Vader started out holding back he wasnt in the end he couldnt afford to and again the novelization made that very clear the movie made that clear to me as well.

Basic point is Luke WAS more powerful then Vader in episode VI until there is some form of retcon. If you want to argue that it alone cant be used to gauge a thematic Luke Jedi Knight, sure I will take that, but at the very least the 2 should be designed as equals rather then Vader being designed as the better when at the very least they were BOTH holding back and Luke still had the edge.

Edit: either way my point still kind of stands that the Luke they made still some how fits Episode V Luke better because of how much his ability emphasis's the card draw thing and the only real advantage that brings is with Launch bay which is a hoth thing and the T-47 that is coming out adds to that even further as its special side is basically Luke's after ability. I really would have liked something that would have made it to where Luke couldnt be "dominated" like he couldnt be disarmed or you couldnt drop him below 1 resource or something, something to signify his ability to be adaptable resourceful and to IN GAME make you feel like an awesome character that REFUSES to be dominated or held down which is what he was in episode VI. Even if he wasnt as strong as Vader he refused to be "controlled" in the end that was the defining moment that was the moment when he declared "I am a jedi like my father before me".

Edited August 17 by tunewalker

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I can't speak to the novelization. I read those some twenty years ago, but don't remember them well enough to comment on the details. They were written after the movie and not by the original screenwriters, so they are also an interpretation of the movie and if they conflict with the movie, then I'd defer to the movie.

I'm not saying they do conflict though. I just think that the dark side is fueled by hatred. Vader relied on the Dark Side at this point as his link to the Force. As Vader's feelings got conflicted, his connection to the Dark Side was affected. He likely would not have been able to understand this in the moment, so he could have felt as powerful as he ever was, when in fact he wasn't. It's a common theme that fighters or athletes that get beat say. They thought they were at their peak, but some unconscious block fooled them into thinking that.

Going back to Destiny, I think Luke and Vader are very equal. The difference, in my opinion is their partner and support cards. Luke doesn't have a Force Strike equivalent. Luke doesn't have a great 10 cost partner that does damage. Ackbar is hardly ideal and is only paired by default. Rey is the best partner, but forces mono-blue and doesn't have Guardian to keep Luke around. I do think this Luke should have had 13 health though and probably a two shield side. They got those wrong.

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The Darth Vader from this game was Vader from Episode V, he is stronger and he hasn't had to deal with the mental inner battle caused by his son rejecting him yet so of course he will be stronger then Episode 6 Luke.

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The Darth Vader from this game was Vader from Episode V, he is stronger and he hasn't had to deal with the mental inner battle caused by his son rejecting him yet so of course he will be stronger then Episode 6 Luke.

Edit: if you all want to skip the Luke vs Vader debate just skip to the end where it says "to speak about destiny again" I can understand this getting a bit ranty and overly nerdy in a debatable topic that few actually agree on.

According to the Novel Episode V Vader is WEAKER then Episode VI Vader. There is no reason to think Vader was weaker beyond people projecting that they dont like that a "whiny kid" who was largely self taught beat a veteran who was formally trained everything is basically an attempt to rationalize what happened rather then accepting what happened . gokubb does at least try to make a point here but Vader would have been just as conflicted on Bespin as he was on the second death star, the difference is Luke was now ALSO conflicted on the Second death star. Here is the line from Vader in RotJ and it gives good insight as to why the emperor insisted he bring luke before him

"Lord Vader did not mind waiting, though, nor was even aware of it. For it was an honor, and a noble activity, to kneel at his ruler's feet. He kept his eyes inward, seeking reflection in his own bottomless core.His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been.It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor.He felt engorged with this power, it surged like black fire, demon electrons looking for ground... But he would wait. For his Emperor was not ready; and his son was not ready, and the time was not yet. So he waited." - Return of the Jedi Novel. The emperor was boosting vader's power while they waited for Luke, The Emperor being such a conduit for the dark side empowered Vader before the battle and likely into the battle.

From star wars insider magazine on the "lightsaber duels" of the movies

The information about who wrote these articles can be found here

These are the guys that developed the "in universe" principles of lightsaber combat.

To speak about destiny againI dont think Luke should have had 13 health as he is I think he should have had 12 but the 2 shield side I absolutely agree, but the main crux is I dont think they gave him the right ability. When you play Darth Vader Sith Lord You actually FEEL like you are playing darth vader, he has some monster damage sides and an oppressive ability that doesnt even require him to hit the right side he is just THERE his mere presence is stifling and feels opressive. Luke on the other hand you dont feel like you arent being oppressed you are constantly having to worry about milling yourself, he feels like Luke skywalker reckless student more then Luke skywalker Jedi knight. He doesnt feel innately talented which regardless of whether or not you believe Vader wasnt at his best or not we can very easily say that Luke still SKYROCKETED in skill from his time at Bespin, he doesnt feel like he is instinctive nor does he feel like he can pull himself back from the brink of darkness nor does he feel like he wont be oppressed, he just feels reckless and that's not who he is in episode VI.

Edit: other interesting thoughts of abilities they COULD have done is instead of card draw he gets an event that costs 1 or less from his discard pile, now he feels like some one that wont be surpressed if you think that is "to powerful" just look what they are doing with sabine allowing you to play Weapons from her discard pile when you roll her in, ya like that isnt going to get ambush abused then overwrite just so you can ambush abuse AGAIN from the discard pile. Another thought in line with my first one is "once per round when you lose or spend your last resource gain 1 resource" all of these would help make Luke feel adaptable resourceful and like he WILL NOT be oppressed in game. Maybe we will see something that helps Luke out and makes all this Moot but lets face it with 4 other 20 point characters that all just do Luke's job better we arent going to get that. Obi-wan knew he couldnt take Vader, Sabine has never shown that level of ability, neither did K2 and yet they are both about to replace Luke at least with Jyn she was different enough that she didnt completely over write him and there was SOME albiet little reason to take Luke over Obi-wan now with EaW coming if anyone is still running Luke it's because they love the character not because there isnt someone that does the job better.

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I'm just going to point out that Kylo Ren costs 13 points, and would still murder the **** out of most of the cast. In light of that, it seems kind of silly to complain points discrepancies.

I think the point is slightly missed this is mostly just talking about a habit FFG has across all it's games when it comes to Jedi Knight Luke. They never seem to know what to do with Luke from episode 6 so they always just make him a bad Mirror of Vader which is denying a lot of what Luke is in that movie. In this game the Luke we get here actually FEELS like Luke from Episode V rather then the one from Episode VI as he synergizes so well with Launch bay and T-47's and recklessly mills himself for more power but doesn't actually GET any real power from milling himself. Kylo feels like Kylo dangerous but largely unstable and a man who has not completed his training sure he is more powerful then the entire cast but he is also a force user which almost by default does that and we couldnt have all Blue characters be super high costed so relative to other force users he is unstable, unfocused and not done with his training he doesn't, as yoda put it to luke, "already know you, that what you need." Even if they have future iterations of Luke I doubt they will make another Jedi Knight Luke and that to me is the sad thing because they never really did make Jedi knight Luke.

I know this is basically just shooting in the wind they arent going to change anything they arent going to retitle this luke to make room for a real Luke skywalker Jedi Knight, they arent going to change his abilities and they have already added 4 characters competing with his point value area 3 of which do the same job he does but better, Sabine is Better Yellow Ranged Luke, K2 is better Red Luke, and Obi-wan is slightly different but clearly better Blue Luke. Launch bay synergy is the only thing he has over the rest of them which just adds to him feeling like this Luke is straight out of episode V rather then feeling like some sort of anti control is what he has over them which is what would make him feel like episode VI Luke.

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Edit: if you all want to skip the Luke vs Vader debate just skip to the end where it says "to speak about destiny again" I can understand this getting a bit ranty and overly nerdy in a debatable topic that few actually agree on.

According to the Novel Episode V Vader is WEAKER then Episode VI Vader. There is no reason to think Vader was weaker beyond people projecting that they dont like that a "whiny kid" who was largely self taught beat a veteran who was formally trained everything is basically an attempt to rationalize what happened rather then accepting what happened . gokubb does at least try to make a point here but Vader would have been just as conflicted on Bespin as he was on the second death star, the difference is Luke was now ALSO conflicted on the Second death star. Here is the line from Vader in RotJ and it gives good insight as to why the emperor insisted he bring luke before him

"Lord Vader did not mind waiting, though, nor was even aware of it. For it was an honor, and a noble activity, to kneel at his ruler's feet. He kept his eyes inward, seeking reflection in his own bottomless core.His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been.It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor.He felt engorged with this power, it surged like black fire, demon electrons looking for ground... But he would wait. For his Emperor was not ready; and his son was not ready, and the time was not yet. So he waited." - Return of the Jedi Novel. The emperor was boosting vader's power while they waited for Luke, The Emperor being such a conduit for the dark side empowered Vader before the battle and likely into the battle.

From star wars insider magazine on the "lightsaber duels" of the movies

The information about who wrote these articles can be found here

These are the guys that developed the "in universe" principles of lightsaber combat.

To speak about destiny againI dont think Luke should have had 13 health as he is I think he should have had 12 but the 2 shield side I absolutely agree, but the main crux is I dont think they gave him the right ability. When you play Darth Vader Sith Lord You actually FEEL like you are playing darth vader, he has some monster damage sides and an oppressive ability that doesnt even require him to hit the right side he is just THERE his mere presence is stifling and feels opressive. Luke on the other hand you dont feel like you arent being oppressed you are constantly having to worry about milling yourself, he feels like Luke skywalker reckless student more then Luke skywalker Jedi knight. He doesnt feel innately talented which regardless of whether or not you believe Vader wasnt at his best or not we can very easily say that Luke still SKYROCKETED in skill from his time at Bespin, he doesnt feel like he is instinctive nor does he feel like he can pull himself back from the brink of darkness nor does he feel like he wont be oppressed, he just feels reckless and that's not who he is in episode VI.

Edit: other interesting thoughts of abilities they COULD have done is instead of card draw he gets an event that costs 1 or less from his discard pile, now he feels like some one that wont be surpressed if you think that is "to powerful" just look what they are doing with sabine allowing you to play Weapons from her discard pile when you roll her in, ya like that isnt going to get ambush abused then overwrite just so you can ambush abuse AGAIN from the discard pile. Another thought in line with my first one is "once per round when you lose or spend your last resource gain 1 resource" all of these would help make Luke feel adaptable resourceful and like he WILL NOT be oppressed in game. Maybe we will see something that helps Luke out and makes all this Moot but lets face it with 4 other 20 point characters that all just do Luke's job better we arent going to get that. Obi-wan knew he couldnt take Vader, Sabine has never shown that level of ability, neither did K2 and yet they are both about to replace Luke at least with Jyn she was different enough that she didnt completely over write him and there was SOME albiet little reason to take Luke over Obi-wan now with EaW coming if anyone is still running Luke it's because they love the character not because there isnt someone that does the job better.

You spent so much time on this, I got as far as novel and stopped because well those are not canon. You can pretty much see it on screen the difference

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You spent so much time on this, I got as far as novel and stopped because well those are not canon. You can pretty much see it on screen the difference

The novelizations of the movies are cannon as long as they do not directly conflict with the movies, specifically meaning as long as the dialog and actions arent in direct conflict and as long as you dont count the scenes that werent in the movies they are actually canon because the novelizations are just the written version of what happens in the movies, all they do is add depth to what we see on screen through text rather then visuals. They are literally the same scenes, further the novels that arent currently under "legends" canon are also considered canon, like bloodlines and aftermath and the like. So no not all Novels are non-canon.

But other then that I can agree you do see all this on screen any way.

For Vader the establish multiple times that nothing has changed from episode V. Luke to Leia "there is good in him I felt it I can turn him back to the good side", Luke to vader "that's why you couldnt destroy me that's why you wont bring me to you emperor now." Again Luke to Vader "you couldnt bring youself to kill me before I dont believe you'll destroy me now" establishing 3 TIMES that Luke felt the same conflict now as he did in Episode V, in episode V though he didnt know it was because he just thought he was trying to use him or capture him to torture him for the information on the alliance. Vader is NEVER established to be weaker in episode VI, Luke however.

Episode V Luke established as not ready multiple times. The entire time Luke is trying to depart Dagobah, Luke and Obi-wan "I feel the force", "But you can not control it". Yoda to Luke "only a fully trained jedi knight with the force as his ally will conquer vader and his emperor" Yoda to Obi-wan "told you I did, Reckless is he" Vader to Luke "the force is with you young skywalker but you are not a jedi yet. Multiple times establishing Luke is not ready to face vader here.

Now episode VI the entire time at Jabba's place is Setting up how different Luke is from episode V, Jabba, his henchmen and Han all represent the audiences view on Luke at this point. "he's no jedi" But Leia and Chewie no better Leia threatening Jabba "we have powerful friends you're going to regret this." Jabba again being the audience "ya, I'm sure" Chewie talking to han and han's response "Luke, Luke's crazy he cant even take care of himself much less rescue anyone. A jedi knight, i'm out of it for a little while and everyone gets delusions of grandeur" then Luke finally shows up in all black and starts choking people to set up the idea that maybe he falls to the dark side, he warns Jabba "I am taking han and his friends you can profit from this or be destroyed" he then fights something multiple times bigger then the Wampa with no weapons, luck.... sure but according to obi-wan "in my experience there's no such thing as luck" so they do it again luke postures and says "you should have bargained that's the last mistake you'll ever make", then on the barge he still postures and when it comes time to make do he does, it wasn't the same reckless bravado we have seen from Luke because this time he delivers single handedly.

Ok but that was just a bunch of thugs and the movie knows this so it goes out of it's way to establish several more times that this Luke is vastly more powerful then he was in Episode V, Palpatine to Vader "he has GROWN strong only together can we turn him to the dark side of the force." so the most powerful dark sider acknowledges that Luke has grown since the last movie AND that Luke is now powerful unlike before, but he is the bad guy so he cant be trusted so lets visit the most powerful good guy Yoda to Luke "no more training do you require already know you that what you need" unlike the last time where Yoda urges him not to go and to continue to train. Further yoda establishes how powerful the emperor is giving Luke the warning "Dont underestimate the powers of the emperor or suffer your fathers fate you will" when talking about how it was unfortunate that Vader told Luke the truth he said it was unfortunate because "incomplete WAS your training" "not ready for the burden WERE you" establishing AGAIN that episode V Luke wasnt ready but that this Luke is. By the time Luke reaches Vader you would hope the movie is done bashing the idea that Luke has vastly improved but its not half this movies dialog has been about establishing how much more powerful Luke is and it has to do it again where last time vader said "the force is with you young skywalker but you are not a jedi yet" this time Vader remarks "your skills are complete, indeed you are powerful as the emperor has foreseen" by this point I am usually going "i get it, no need to bash my head in with this idea" but considering the staggering number of people who still say "there is no way he improved THAT much in this time" apparently they do, and they do it again this time with the emperor immediately after Luke BEATS Vader and establishes for the whole Audience that he is much stronger then he was last time the emperor confirms it again, this time blaming the dark side "your hate has made you powerful" Half the stuff in episode VI is establishing how much more powerful luke is and how Vader has ALWAYS had some good in him, in episode IV, V and VI that the emperor NEVER drove it from him fully. There is no reason to think that Vader is less powerful then in Episode V they establish Vader as the constant and they give you way TO MUCH reason to think LUke is WAY more powerful then he was.

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The novelizations of the movies are cannon as long as they do not directly conflict with the movies, specifically meaning as long as the dialog and actions arent in direct conflict and as long as you dont count the scenes that werent in the movies they are actually canon because the novelizations are just the written version of what happens in the movies, all they do is add depth to what we see on screen through text rather then visuals. They are literally the same scenes, further the novels that arent currently under "legends" canon are also considered canon, like bloodlines and aftermath and the like. So no not all Novels are non-canon.

But other then that I can agree you do see all this on screen any way.

For Vader the establish multiple times that nothing has changed from episode V. Luke to Leia "there is good in him I felt it I can turn him back to the good side", Luke to vader "that's why you couldnt destroy me that's why you wont bring me to you emperor now." Again Luke to Vader "you couldnt bring youself to kill me before I dont believe you'll destroy me now" establishing 3 TIMES that Luke felt the same conflict now as he did in Episode V, in episode V though he didnt know it was because he just thought he was trying to use him or capture him to torture him for the information on the alliance. Vader is NEVER established to be weaker in episode VI, Luke however.

Episode V Luke established as not ready multiple times. The entire time Luke is trying to depart Dagobah, Luke and Obi-wan "I feel the force", "But you can not control it". Yoda to Luke "only a fully trained jedi knight with the force as his ally will conquer vader and his emperor" Yoda to Obi-wan "told you I did, Reckless is he" Vader to Luke "the force is with you young skywalker but you are not a jedi yet. Multiple times establishing Luke is not ready to face vader here.

Now episode VI the entire time at Jabba's place is Setting up how different Luke is from episode V, Jabba, his henchmen and Han all represent the audiences view on Luke at this point. "he's no jedi" But Leia and Chewie no better Leia threatening Jabba "we have powerful friends you're going to regret this." Jabba again being the audience "ya, I'm sure" Chewie talking to han and han's response "Luke, Luke's crazy he cant even take care of himself much less rescue anyone. A jedi knight, i'm out of it for a little while and everyone gets delusions of grandeur" then Luke finally shows up in all black and starts choking people to set up the idea that maybe he falls to the dark side, he warns Jabba "I am taking han and his friends you can profit from this or be destroyed" he then fights something multiple times bigger then the Wampa with no weapons, luck.... sure but according to obi-wan "in my experience there's no such thing as luck" so they do it again luke postures and says "you should have bargained that's the last mistake you'll ever make", then on the barge he still postures and when it comes time to make do he does, it wasn't the same reckless bravado we have seen from Luke because this time he delivers single handedly.

Ok but that was just a bunch of thugs and the movie knows this so it goes out of it's way to establish several more times that this Luke is vastly more powerful then he was in Episode V, Palpatine to Vader "he has GROWN strong only together can we turn him to the dark side of the force." so the most powerful dark sider acknowledges that Luke has grown since the last movie AND that Luke is now powerful unlike before, but he is the bad guy so he cant be trusted so lets visit the most powerful good guy Yoda to Luke "no more training do you require already know you that what you need" unlike the last time where Yoda urges him not to go and to continue to train. Further yoda establishes how powerful the emperor is giving Luke the warning "Dont underestimate the powers of the emperor or suffer your fathers fate you will" when talking about how it was unfortunate that Vader told Luke the truth he said it was unfortunate because "incomplete WAS your training" "not ready for the burden WERE you" establishing AGAIN that episode V Luke wasnt ready but that this Luke is. By the time Luke reaches Vader you would hope the movie is done bashing the idea that Luke has vastly improved but its not half this movies dialog has been about establishing how much more powerful Luke is and it has to do it again where last time vader said "the force is with you young skywalker but you are not a jedi yet" this time Vader remarks "your skills are complete, indeed you are powerful as the emperor has foreseen" by this point I am usually going "i get it, no need to bash my head in with this idea" but considering the staggering number of people who still say "there is no way he improved THAT much in this time" apparently they do, and they do it again this time with the emperor immediately after Luke BEATS Vader and establishes for the whole Audience that he is much stronger then he was last time the emperor confirms it again, this time blaming the dark side "your hate has made you powerful" Half the stuff in episode VI is establishing how much more powerful luke is and how Vader has ALWAYS had some good in him, in episode IV, V and VI that the emperor NEVER drove it from him fully. There is no reason to think that Vader is less powerful then in Episode V they establish Vader as the constant and they give you way TO MUCH reason to think LUke is WAY more powerful then he was.

The novels based on the first 6 film are only canon where they line up with the film, anything that doesn't or anything that adds is NOT canon. If you do not see it on screen it is not canon.

The novels based on the films starting with TFA are canon except where they contradict, if you don't see it on see and it doesn't contradict it is canon. HUGE difference.

The only canon versions of the OT stories are the YA rereleases from 2015 I believe. The original novels for the most part are legends

What is canon:
Books on the first 6 films -only what lines up with what is on the screen, anything else is not
Books starting with TFA forward -Everything that you see on screen PLUS what you don't see that does contradict.

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The novels based on the first 6 film are only canon where they line up with the film, anything that doesn't or anything that adds is NOT canon. If you do not see it on screen it is not canon.

The novels based on the films starting with TFA are canon except where they contradict, if you don't see it on see and it doesn't contradict it is canon. HUGE difference.

The only canon versions of the OT stories are the YA rereleases from 2015 I believe. The original novels for the most part are legends

What is canon:
Books on the first 6 films -only what lines up with what is on the screen, anything else is not
Books starting with TFA forward -Everything that you see on screen PLUS what you don't see that does contradict.

This comes from Pablo himself.

That was a long reply you wrote though.....

Yes because it uses the scenes from the movies to support the argument rather then the books to fit with your premise of using the movies rather then using the Novels everything in that post are scenes directly out of the movie as well as direct quotes from both episode V and Episode VI that showcase the argument, basically using the novel's was unnecessary because the scenes I was talking about from the novels were in the movies and RotJ does a fantastic job of setting up that Luke is way more powerful then he was in Episode V honestly going a little overboard with it and having characters straight out state it way more then is necessary as well as doing a fantastic job of banging the idea that vader ALWAYS had some form of good in him also having that statement repeated way to often, seriously 80% of the dialog can be summed up "Luke is really powerful now unlike the last 2 movies (for the first third of the movie its the henchmen going ya right because they represent the audiences expectations of Luke coming out of what we saw in Episode V), the empire has a second death star now, The emperor is really evil and really powerful and vader has always had a little good in him, turn to the dark side Luke we can save your friends."

Nothing in RotJ ever suggests that Vader is weaker then he was in Episode V, but RotJ DOES bash your head in with the fact that Luke is vastly more powerful. Any way I will likely make another thread next week talking about ALL of the 20 point hero characters and the different niches they may fill within the game rather then all this Story debate stuff. Rather a group talk about the benefits and disadvantages of all the different 20 point Hero characters since we are about to have 5 of them.