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HS does a proprietary code Integer HDR (NAO16 I think it's called) and not FP16. It's basically faking (pretty damn well) FP HDR. Nothing is "built in" per se. The bandwidth to RSX I don't think allows for an acceptable performance while doing FP16 (which obviously they could force it to do).

It's not FP16 for all channels, but still much better than integer HDR.

You have a couple things wrong. First its NAO32 (not 16). Second, there are actually more bits of precision allocated to the HDR component in NAO32 than in FP16 (let alone Xenos' FP10). As far as quality is concerned there's nothing "fake" about it at all. It simply sacrificies a slight hit in shaders for color space conversion to gain in bandwith.

There's no magic here: HDR rendering costs are shifted from memory to shaders, and so our shaders are a bit longer now (between 3 and 5 cycles). We believe it's a very good trade-off. Furthermore, it enables HDR rendering and multisample anti-aliasing on GPUs that do not natively support AA with floating point render targets such as FP16 and FP32.

I didn't mean FP16, but FP64 (16/16/16/16). I just ended up typing FP16 because of what I was quoting form Onix, sorry.

I'm sure you're not saying that NAO32 looks even better than true FP64, right? I mean it looked damn good, but I could see difference from demos using PF64 (like say '05 FN3 demo, or the '05 UT2007 demo).

And I guess calling it an integer format isn't right. It's combination of FP and integer? I read articles about it but it was long ago.

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I don't mind people calling this launch software, because it is. However, it's been made on hardware that was close to final hardware for at least 2 years. Most launch games aren't afforded that luxury. So, this pre-launch to 2nd gen 360 games talk is stupid.

by the way Nostromo, is this a technique (giving PS3 the ability to do AA and HDR together) that is being circulated by Sony to other devs as a 'tool' for other PS3 games or are you the only ones using it right now AFAYK?

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by the way Nostromo, is this a technique (giving PS3 the ability to do AA and HDR together) that is being circulated by Sony to other devs as a 'tool' for other PS3 games or are you the only ones using it right now AFAYK?

K. LEE GAIDEN

I didn't mean FP16, but FP64 (16/16/16/16). I just ended up typing FP16 because of what I was quoting form Onix, sorry.

I'm sure you're not saying that NAO32 looks even better than true FP64, right? I mean it looked damn good, but I could see difference from demos using PF64 (like say '05 FN3 demo, or the '05 UT2007 demo).

And I guess calling it an integer format isn't right. It's combination of FP and integer? I read articles about it but it was long ago.

K. LEE GAIDEN

by the way Nostromo, is this a technique (giving PS3 the ability to do AA and HDR together) that is being circulated by Sony to other devs as a 'tool' for other PS3 games or are you the only ones using it right now AFAYK?

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Then we are talking about the same thing with me getting confused about the right term. Then I don't get how NAO32 is better looking and performing then FP16 (or were they FP32?). FP16 stuff that I've seen is more "crisp" in it's looks then what we've seen on HS.

HS's HDR has a bit of a 'soft' look compared to those two demos I'm talking about (but I think it's just as good or better than FP10 stuff on X360). Unless I'm suppose to enjoy that softer look, I just don't get how NAO32 in FS is better than FP16. *shrugs*

I know NAO is proud of his creation (and should be), but forgive me for thinking that maybe that part of his statement is just a smidgen of a hyperbole?

Kleegamefan said:

I guess so...but I really didnt mean....what I was trying say was....you see the thing is.....oh shit I GIVE UP:lol

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Thank you for taking an active part in these forums... seriously, it's appreciated... it certainly helps establish that you guys "care" for gamers... I'm sure it wins you tons of respect (if you want it or not :lol )...

I wish more devs would post in such... the trolls are an active-over population in forums... especially if someone is saying so and so would agree, or they'd say so too!

You're trying to use straight math conventions for things that are represented in two totally different formats (colorspaces in this case). This would be the same as comparing bit-rates of MPEG2 versus MPEG4 ... and assuming a given MPEG2 video will look better due to its higher bitrate.

FP16 stuff that I've seen is more "crisp" in it's looks then what we've seen on HS.

HS's HDR has a bit of a 'soft' look compared to those two demos I'm talking about (but I think it's just as good or better than FP10 stuff on X360). Unless I'm suppose to enjoy that softer look, I just don't get how NAO32 in FS is better than FP16. *shrugs*

I know NAO is proud of his creation (and should be), but forgive me for thinking that maybe that part of his statement is just a smidgen of a hyperbole?

GAF's Bob Woodward

Then we are talking about the same thing with me getting confused about the right term. Then I don't get how NAO32 is better looking and performing then FP16 (or were they FP32?). FP16 stuff that I've seen is more "crisp" in it's looks then what we've seen on HS.

HS's HDR has a bit of a 'soft' look compared to those two demos I'm talking about (but I think it's just as good or better than FP10 stuff on X360). Unless I'm suppose to enjoy that softer look, I just don't get how NAO32 in FS is better than FP16. *shrugs*

I know NAO is proud of his creation (and should be), but forgive me for thinking that maybe that part of his statement is just a smidgen of a hyperbole?

nAo could go into the specifics, his links might even, but IIRC, the claim is based on the fact that the approach leverages a colour space far more suited to high dynamic range than the RGB space that other implementations use, including FP16 etc. Technically I believe it's supposed to result in better range and fewer artifacts in certain cases where they might appear with FP16.

I can't be entirely sure what you're referring to with the 'softness' you see with HS's lighting, but it may have nothing to do with the HDR. The game employs atmospheric scattering also, which can help bathe a scene in hazy 'soft' light. It's quite deliberate, and I think it looks rather fantastic.

e.g. if you're talking about the soft haziness in scenes like this:

..then that's definitely the atmospheric scattering, I think. It's meant to be like that, it wouldn't look as good without it IMO.

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OK, just for my satisfaction, could NAO or someone else tell me what HDR formats the '05 E3 UT2007 and the FN3 demo were using? It's pretty obvious now that I'm confused what that exactly was.

Do you think they were using FP16 or maybe even FP32? Whatever they were, it was eye searing gorgeous. I know what FP10 (10/10/10/2) looks like thanks to X360 games. I know what NAO32 looks like (however it breaks down) thanks to FS. What were those two demos doing?

gofreak said:

..then that's definitely the atmospheric scattering, I think. It's meant to be like that, it wouldn't look as good without it IMO.

Actually, I'm referring to how the lighter portion of the screen transitions into the darker parts. Like brightly shone surface and shadows right next to it. Or maybe that lightest light to darkest dark isn't as contrasty as the two demos from '05 E3.

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Then we are talking about the same thing with me getting confused about the right term. Then I don't get how NAO32 is better looking and performing then FP16 (or were they FP32?). FP16 stuff that I've seen is more "crisp" in it's looks then what we've seen on HS.

HS's HDR has a bit of a 'soft' look compared to those two demos I'm talking about (but I think it's just as good or better than FP10 stuff on X360). Unless I'm suppose to enjoy that softer look, I just don't get how NAO32 in FS is better than FP16. *shrugs*

I know NAO is proud of his creation (and should be), but forgive me for thinking that maybe that part of his statement is just a smidgen of a hyperbole?

GAF's Bob Woodward

Actually, I'm referring to how the lighter portion of the screen transitions into the darker parts. Like brightly shone surface and shadows right next to it. Or maybe that lightest light to darkest dark isn't as contrasty as the two demos from '05 E3.

I'm not quite sure, but if you're referring to shadow edges/boundaries, it's quite desireable for them to be 'soft'.

As for the latter, I'd defer to nAo if this is an incorrect assumption, but that particular scene is pretty open, it's not going to have a very dark area and a very bright area, simply because the ambient light is there. That's not a reflection on the range the HDR implementation can handle, I just doubt the scene just is very challenging in that regard.

It has one of the best lighting of all the real playable games so far, but I honestly think that those two demos form 05 E3 had better HDR. I saw all of them in person. There was a super crispness to the lighting that is missing in HS and the X360 stuff.

This is no sleight on the XBOX 360 as I'm sure FP10 performs adequately for most situations (and devs may even be able to get around the FP16 limitations).

I'm realistic. I appreciate the HDR I've seen in X360 titles so far but they don't approach whatever those two PS3 demos were doing back in 2005 E3. Maybe some of the PC titles running on rediculous SLI set ups will be doing it in games soon, but I don't think we'll see anything like that in the consoles for a while because of their bandwidth limitations.

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Wow, Shog massively owned. After the detailed dialog at B3D concerning the HS HDR algorithm you'd think there'd be no one left on the internet - not even Deadmeat - who'd attempt the "faked HDR" argument anymore. :lol :lol :lol

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No one will care to even guess as what HDR formats UT2007 and FN3 demos at '05 E3 was doing? Now I'm dying to know. :lol

teiresias said:

Wow, Shog massively owned. After the detailed dialog at B3D concerning the HS HDR algorithm you'd think there'd be no one left on the internet - not even Deadmeat - who'd attempt the "faked HDR" argument anymore. :lol :lol :lol

Hey now, I never said HS was doing "fake" HDR. I said it was doing fake FP HDR. Wrong still, but give me some credit about not knocking HS intentionally. I did always maintain that it was the best looking PS3 title at E3.

K. LEE GAIDEN

I'm realistic. I appreciate the HDR I've seen in X360 titles so far but they don't approach whatever those two PS3 demos were doing back in 2005 E3. Maybe some of the PC titles running on rediculous SLI set ups will be doing it in games soon, but I don't think we'll see anything like that in the consoles for a while because of their bandwidth limitations.

K. LEE GAIDEN

Hey Shog...Since you seem to be in a humble mood right now....can I ask you an honest question:

Are you gonna get a PS3 and what games are you looking forward to playing on it if you do?

I always wondered this.....I take stabs at X360 and MS in fun, but I still have the console and am a fan of many of its games (most notably Bumfight 360, Ridge Racer 6, GRAW and the upcoming drool-worthy Mass Effect)...

I know you are not the biggest fan of sony but will you still allow yourself to enjoy some PS3 games in the future?

Banned

Hey Shog...Since you seem to be in a humble mood right now....can I ask you an honest question...

Are you gonna get a PS3 and what games are you looking forward to playing on it if you do?

I always wondered this.....I take stabs at X360 and MS in fun, but I still have the console and am a fan of many of its games (most notably Ridge Racer 6, GRAW and the upcoming drool-worthy Mass Effect)...

I know you are not the biggest fan of sony but will you still allow yourself to enjoy some PS3 games in the future?

That was my whole point of my reply as well..but some people sorta got ruffled feathers over it i guess lol but on the other hand..i still dont think there is much of a diffrence besides some tweaking..seriously

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I'm realistic. I appreciate the HDR I've seen in X360 titles so far but they don't approach whatever those two PS3 demos were doing back in 2005 E3. Maybe some of the PC titles running on rediculous SLI set ups will be doing it in games soon, but I don't think we'll see anything like that in the consoles for a while because of their bandwidth limitations.

As for the quality argument, as I mentioned before mathmatically NAO32 has more bits of precision allocated to its HDR component than FP16, its simply more precise (hence better quality). I'll agree with gofreak, what you're perceiving as a "difference" is down to the contrasting settings and artistic applications. Maybe a little placebo effect as well considering you thought it was inferior to begin with.

There's no way I'm gonna be able to afford the thing with all the stuff I have to buy (including a Cintiq 21UX and maybe even another TPC). My new job is sorta forcing my hands.

It's not like I'm gonna be able to find one anyways this X-Mas. :lol

I always wondered this.....I take stabs at X360 and MS in fun, but I still have the console and am a fan of many of its games (most notably Bumfight 360, Ridge Racer 6, GRAW and the upcoming drool-worthy Mass Effect)...

I know you are not the biggest fan of sony but will you still allow yourself to enjoy some PS3 games in the future?

Don't paint me into a absolute anti Sony guy. I owned so many Sony stuff in the past, it's not even funny (including obviously a Playstation. PS2 I never got because my roommate at the time had it and I got the XBox instead to spread the cost between us)! When the finances and supplies come to the right point, I'll probably get one anyways. I'm still hoping Sony comes back with a new Clie line and finally do a proper Palm PDA with a screen higher than 480x320. You know what? Nevermind.... PDAs are deader than dead. :lol

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Wait, what rumor (and "mine" to boot?)? I don't remember starting any rumors about SLI anything.

As for the quality argument, as I mentioned before mathmatically NAO32 has more bits of precision allocated to its HDR component than FP16, its simply more precise (hence better quality). I'll agree with gofreak, what you're perceiving as a "difference" is down to the contrasting settings and artistic applications. Maybe a little placebo effect as well considering you thought it was inferior to begin with.

Maybe that's true. It might be art thing, or that the HDTV used was 1366x768 and was scaling it up, maybe the softness in lighting was due to AA or is intentional. Maybe it's just memory. But I swear, the explosions in that UT demo with robot and the guy with dreads had some rediculously gorgeous lighting. I haven't seen anything that topped it since with the exception of the FN3 demo from the same E3.

Don't paint me into a absolute anti Sony guy. I owned so many Sony stuff in the past, it's not even funny (including obviously a Playstation. PS2 I never got because my roommate at the time had it and I got the XBox instead to spread the cost between us)! When the finances and supplies come to the right point, I'll probably get one anyways. I'm still hoping Sony comes back with a new Clie line and finally do a proper Palm PDA with a screen higher than 480x320. You know what? Nevermind.... PDAs are deader than dead. :lol

Nah, I did't think you were totally an anti-Sony guy, just someone who like to amuse himself with the boneheaded decisions some of these companys make, along with the comments from their blind faithful......(for the record, I do have a certain amount of faith in PS3 games, but that is because Sony make some games I absolutely *love* and PS1/2 gave me more years of enjoyment than any console had a right to, even though I had every other console too)

You have to admit some of the decisions made by the bigwigs @ MS and Sony are questionable at minimum, not to mention some of the quotes they have made over the last year or so have been laughable....Sony is especially guilty of this...