Vergne letting Vettel through in Abu Dhabi

Why am I not surprised the idea of Massa helping KR from Monza 2007 onwards (and especially in Brazil) provokes such an excited reaction?

I tell you why: because telling it like it is (was) on the matter in one big sweep devalues all the fake outrage about Hockenheim 2010. Pretty unfortunate, hm?

No one is suggesting that Kimi Raikkonen has never gotten help in racing situations from his team mates when required!! For example, Grosjean let Kimi by in Singapore 2012 recently.

But you have got all your blinkers incorrect if you think Massa helped Raikkonen in Brazil 07. It is factually incorrect to say the least because in the end of the day.... Massa DIDN'T HAVE TO PULL OVER for Kimi. On the contrary Massa almost frikkin spun & crashed during the pitstop games as he was pushing to the hilt, generally to come out in front of Kimi & move over for him.... maybe to please his home crowd.

If anything, There was more risk of Massa spinning & handing the title to Alonso than to help Kimi in those tensed few laps in the pitstop window. Raikkonen had him covered on pace & Kimi's heavier Fuel Load Pit strategy. So to automatically belittle Kimi's Brazil race by comparing it to Alonso-Massa 2010 is only by some Alonso fan to make themselves feel better about Alonso fatal weakness as a driver.

Like I said, just because help was available, doesn't mean Kimi Raikkonen took it!!!

Also, you must have watched a different season if you think Massa was GOOD ENOUGH to be in FRONT of Raikkonen to help from Monza 07 onwards. As you would notice below, Massa was in a position to help Kimi only in Brazil, but Massa didn't have to MOVE OVER as Kimi had him beat 10 races running.Kimi Raikkonen- France to Brazil 07- simply impressive run1 FRA1 GBRR EUR (Pole, Car breakdown)2 HUN2 TUR3 ITA1 BEL3 JPN (stormed from back of pack, by FIA as Ferrari screwed tyres)1 CHN1 BRA

About Vergne helping Vettel, the general people complaining about it are mostly Alonso supporters. The irony cannot be scripted

But you have got all your blinkers incorrect if you think Massa helped Raikkonen in Brazil 07. It is factually incorrect to say the least because in the end of the day.... Massa DIDN'T HAVE TO PULL OVER for Kimi. On the contrary Massa almost frikkin spun & crashed during the pitstop games as he was pushing to the hilt, generally to come out in front of Kimi & move over for him....

to the people arguing that Massa let through Raikkönen in brazil, just have a look at france 2007, or malaysia 2008. was Massa trying to help Kimi in those races too? or maybe the easier solution is that Raikkönen used the going longer - overtaking in the pit strategy well? hmm....

Q: (Jon McEvoy -The Daily Mail) Just going back to Ferrari, if you’re leading the race, would you give way to let Fernando through to win it?FM: Well, I already did that, you know? 2007, you don’t remember? So it depends on me. I’m a professional driver.

Q: (Jon McEvoy -The Daily Mail) Just going back to Ferrari, if you’re leading the race, would you give way to let Fernando through to win it?FM: Well, I already did that, you know? 2007, you don’t remember? So it depends on me. I’m a professional driver.

of course he says that, he wanted to give the position on track but was too slow to do it, so he comes up with a cute story like that.

Turun Sanomat 6.11 2010 23:40:23

Brazilian GP column 6.11.

The Italian F1 press is obsessed with Kimi Raikkonen never thanking his team mate Felipe Massa enough for the help he got in his all-time championship-battle in Ferrari three years ago.

Massa himself still throws more steam to this already cooled stove by saying that everyone knows Räikkönen’s cool character.

In a recent Italian interview Massa says that he expects Fernando Alonso to thank him much warmer if he wins this year’s championship.

In fact there is room for interpretation about what exactly Kimi should have thanked Massa so much for after his Brazilian Grand Prix victory. Massa has made clear that he let Raikkonen past him to victory.

However I have heard from inside the team that the way Raikkonen took the lead in the race was anything but what Massa is referring to with giving the first place to his team mate.

Massa did his everything to stay in front of Raikkonen even after the pitstops. He whipped his Ferrari so roughly that he almost slipped off the track twice. Nevertheless Raikkonen was able to get past his team mate from the pitstop.

The insiders in Ferrari knew immediately that Raikkonen took also that victory by driving, not as a gift, although he surely would have got it in a way that would have aroused just as mixed emotions as in Hockenheim with Alonso when Massa slowed down in front of all the TV viewers and let his team mate past.

In the end Alonso most certainly doesn’t feel a completely genuine debt of gratitude to Massa after having to complain for some time via radio how ridiculous the situation is when he has to bump along behind his team mate until the trail opened.

In China Massa whined when Alonso overtook him in the pitlane. In Silverstone the Ferraris hit each other right in the beginning. And just recently they have also raised criticism over Massa not letting Alonso past him already in the second race this season in Australia.

Alonso presented in a diplomatic way the wish that he would win the championship in such a way that would make the whole team - including Massa - happy.

If Red Bull would still wins the championship it’s certain that afterwards there nobody would feel debts of gratitude to anyone. Although during a moment of defeat the ’fish debts’ might well be on the the list.

of course he says that, he wanted to give the position on track but was too slow to do it, so he comes up with a cute story like that.

Ok, understood. A statement from a driver of course isn´t a proof , but an article by a finnish journo is.

Do you really think, Massa lied, because he tought any other version would hurt his reputation as a driver 3 years later (after he also showed, he could keep up with Kimi in 2008&2009 anyway)?

Ok, then believe that... as you obviously believe that Massa´s "mistake" doesn´t look as artificial as e.g. MSC´s parking maneuver in Monaco 2006 or the nice little stunts of both Ferrari drivers in the Silverstone Pre-Qualifying 2004.

Q: (Jon McEvoy -The Daily Mail) Just going back to Ferrari, if you’re leading the race, would you give way to let Fernando through to win it?FM: Well, I already did that, you know? 2007, you don’t remember? So it depends on me. I’m a professional driver.

Right, and I am supposed to take Massa's word for it still in the wake of Hockenheim shit storm. Just because Massa deluded himself, and you apparently, into believing he let Räikkönen through why should everybody else buy into it?

There you have head to head Massa vs Räikkönen lap comparison for the Brazil race in 2007. Lap times sure as hell convey no intention on Massa's part to let Räikkönen through considering Massa did his fastest race laps up to the point immediately following his pitstop (laps 52, 53) and his outlap was about second slower than Räikkönen's mostly explained with a roughly a second longer stoppage time likely due to need for more fuel. The mistake he made was on lap 44 and he came pretty close to binning it.

Ok, understood. A statement from a driver of course isn´t a proof , but an article by a finnish journo is.

Do you really think, Massa lied, because he tought any other version would hurt his reputation as a driver 3 years later (after he also showed, he could keep up with Kimi in 2008&2009 anyway)?

Ok, then believe that... as you obviously believe that Massa´s "mistake" doesn´t look as artificial as e.g. MSC´s parking maneuver in Monaco 2006 or the nice little stunts of both Ferrari drivers in the Silverstone Pre-Qualifying 2004.

remember, you're talking about Felipe "my car did something funny and the next I know I'm in the gravel" Massa. (reference to 2008 malaysia where he spun off on his own when trying to keep the pace of Kimi, and blamed the car) of course he wants to make it look like it was him letting past Kimi with faking a mistake , and not Kimi passing him for the lead. it is about as ridiculous as if Kimi said about spa 2008 that he deliberately pushed off Hamilton to force him in a penalty situation, then crashed out so Felipe could win.and I think you missed this one:

to the people arguing that Massa let through Raikkönen in brazil, just have a look at france 2007, or malaysia 2008. was Massa trying to help Kimi in those races too? or maybe the easier solution is that Raikkönen used the going longer - overtaking in the pit strategy well? hmm....

so, was Massa being helpful in those races too? letting Kimi past in the second race of the year?oh, btw, in france 2007, he blamed the bacmarkers for impeding him so Kimi could take the lead after the second stop. when I rewatched the race recently, what I saw was Kimi coming out of the pits in front of some backmarkers, and then 1,5 seconds after the last backmarker came Massa. so much for the bacmarkers impeding him that's how seriously you have to take what Massa says.

Q: (Jon McEvoy -The Daily Mail) Just going back to Ferrari, if you’re leading the race, would you give way to let Fernando through to win it?FM: Well, I already did that, you know? 2007, you don’t remember? So it depends on me. I’m a professional driver.

Right, and I am supposed to take Massa's word for it still in the wake of Hockenheim shit storm. Just because Massa deluded himself, and you apparently, into believing he let Räikkönen through why should everybody else buy into it?

There you have head to head Massa vs Räikkönen lap comparison for the Brazil race in 2007. Lap times sure as hell convey no intention on Massa's part to let Räikkönen through considering Massa did his fastest race laps up to the point immediately following his pitstop (laps 52, 53) and his outlap was about second slower than Räikkönen's mostly explained with a roughly a second longer stoppage time likely due to need for more fuel. The mistake he made was on lap 44 and he came pretty close to binning it.

Your aren´t supposed to do anything, even though i don´t know what Hockenheim has to do with it (of course he had to pretend , that he wasn´t "forced" to do that as Ferrari had to fear more than just the fine they got eventually).

RAI was too far away, to jump MAS after the second pit stops.Then MAS made his "mistake" and RAI was right at his tail now.

The rest is just a normal procedure at that time, the guy who stays out longer wins. Massa didn´t need to drive extra slow laps after his stop to establish that (in addition to that: at Kimi´s outlap, Massa´s lap time is much slower than before - so there´s also the chance that he lifted slightly at the beignning of the lap to make sure Kimi comes out ahead).

RAI was too far away, to jump MAS after the second pit stops.Then MAS made his "mistake" and RAI was right at his tail now.

Like I said the strongest and the only piece of evidence in support of a team order is its inevitability, the rest is just forcing the data to fit into the preordained result; I.e Massa almost binned it to let Räikkönen close within second, well that's real likely.

remember, you're talking about Felipe "my car did something funny and the next I know I'm in the gravel" Massa. (reference to 2008 malaysia where he spun off on his own when trying to keep the pace of Kimi, and blamed the car) of course he wants to make it look like it was him letting past Kimi with faking a mistake , and not Kimi passing him for the lead. it is about as ridiculous as if Kimi said about spa 2008 that he deliberately pushed off Hamilton to force him in a penalty situation, then crashed out so Felipe could win.and I think you missed this one:

so, was Massa being helpful in those races too? letting Kimi past in the second race of the year?oh, btw, in france 2007, he blamed the bacmarkers for impeding him so Kimi could take the lead after the second stop. when I rewatched the race recently, what I saw was Kimi coming out of the pits in front of some backmarkers, and then 1,5 seconds after the last backmarker came Massa. so much for the bacmarkers impeding him that's how seriously you have to take what Massa says.

1st I don´t care about other races, i´m talking about Brazil 2007 only.

2nd The rest of your attempt to question Massa´s credibility are just examples of typical driver´s behaviour. But i still believe Massa, as i it confirms my impression of the authenticity of his maneuver and as Massa had nothing to prove in 2010 regarding his competiveness compared to Kimi anymore and therfore had little motive to lie.

Your aren´t supposed to do anything, even though i don´t know what Hockenheim has to do with it (of course he had to pretend , that he wasn´t "forced" to do that as Ferrari had to fear more than just the fine they got eventually).

RAI was too far away, to jump MAS after the second pit stops.Then MAS made his "mistake" and RAI was right at his tail now.

The rest is just a normal procedure at that time, the guy who stays out longer wins. Massa didn´t need to drive extra slow laps after his stop to establish that.

but if he wanted to let him through at the second pit stops, why by faking a mistake? why not just turn everything down on the car and be 2-3 tenths slower? why was he nearly posting purple laps on high fuel loads if he wanted Kimi to pass him? it wouldn't have been suspicious as he just came out of the pits, 1-2 slower laps wouldn't surprise anyone. but Massa went fast, and was so close to Kimi when he emerged from the pits that the smallest mistake by the pit crew (or him not going fast enough) would put him behind Massa. surely Massa would know that, and would leave some room for error, if he wanted Kimi to come out in front?

but if he wanted to let him through at the second pit stops, why by faking a mistake? why not just turn everything down on the car and be 2-3 tenths slower?

Why not? It obviously works both ways - and maybe Massa just wanted to show that he´s faster/would win, until the very last possible moment.

why was he nearly posting purple laps on high fuel loads if he wanted Kimi to pass him? it wouldn't have been suspicious as he just came out of the pits, 1-2 slower laps wouldn't surprise anyone. but he went fast, and was so close to Kimi when he emerged from the pits that the smallest mistake by the pit crew (or him not going fast enough) would put him behind Massa. surely Massa would know that, and would leave some room for error, if he wanted Kimi to come out in front?

No shit Sherlock, oh would you mind pointing out where in this way off topic discussion anyone has categorically denied Räikkönen ever taking advantage of team orders. As far as I can tell the off topic Räikkönen discussion has revolved around a single instance which is constantly brought up as proof of his inability to fend for himself. By all means do know for certain Brazil was a blatant case of team orders but do not present utter bullshit as proof thereof.

"I think we had a perfect teamwork, Felipe helping all the time also."

"We had a hard fight with him all year but then he unfortunately didn't score and he couldn't be in the fight any more, so he's been a big help..."

"...we had it planned, we knew what we wanted to do as a team. We had a clear picture of that, so we were not really racing against each other, so a big thanks to the team, a big thanks to Felipe."

FM:

"Yeah, for sure we had everything to win the race today. The car was phenomenal, the team did a fantastic job, but I think it was pretty clear that the team was fighting for the championship and it was not going to be me who would stop that, so I was playing the game for sure, and trying to help the team if possible."

"We were talking beforehand that the only way for Kimi to win the championship was that Lewis should have to be out of the top six and if he was out of the top six and the team needed my support, I would be very happy to help and that's what I did."

It was so obvious, logical and normal what took place that day, and I seem to recall almost veryone acknowledging as much when it happened.

Since then, those attempts to rewrite history in to Kimi winning his title without his teammates help have become very popular, but in the end they are still only one thing: hilarious.

As far as I can tell the off topic Räikkönen discussion has revolved around a single instance which is constantly brought up as proof of his inability to fend for himself.

the 2007 Brazil GP is just an instance of a team ensuring their driver gets the best shot at a championship. Same applies to China 2008. It's not a blemish on anybody, unless you really want to interpret it as such. And IMHO it's pretty silly to pretend Massa fought Kimi for the lead in Brazil 2007, he didn't. Ferrari engineered a pretty seemless swap for the lead and Massa played along. No biggie. Everybody and anybody in their shoes would do the same.

No shit Sherlock, oh would you mind pointing out where in this way off topic discussion anyone has categorically denied Räikkönen ever taking advantage of team orders. As far as I can tell the off topic Räikkönen discussion has revolved around a single instance which is constantly brought up as proof of his inability to fend for himself. By all means do know for certain Brazil was a blatant case of team orders but do not present utter bullshit as proof thereof.

When one of the drivers involved said there was that is good enough for me. Got it Sherlock?

edit: Back on topic. Team orders are fine by me but when you do it with a "B' team that is stretching it a little far.

The rest is just a normal procedure at that time, the guy who stays out longer wins. Massa didn´t need to drive extra slow laps after his stop to establish that (in addition to that: at Kimi´s outlap, Massa´s lap time is much slower than before - so there´s also the chance that he lifted slightly at the beignning of the lap to make sure Kimi comes out ahead).

yup, Massa had a 2 second slower lap than before, but as you can see, when Kimi exits the pit, Massa is on his tail, at the end of the lap, Massa falls behind by 1,9 seconds, so loses more than 1,5 on the lap after Kimi rejoins in front of him. hmmm, looks almost as if he was pushing as hell before that, but since Kimi joined back in front of him, can lift off and cruise, as there is no point in pushing anymore.

Yep, so he was either was held up by Kimi by 2 seconds - which would mean that Massa was quite slow on his own outlap as Kimi´s out lap was still faster (and therefore also knew, that he could go at normal speed in the following two laps as he lost already enough time on his outlap) - or he wasn´t exactly pushing between start/finish and turn 3 of that lap.

as65p, of course Massa was a big help. if he didn't finish in 2nd after Kimi (by, for example, crashing out by doing a mistake during faking a mistake ) then Alonso would've been WDC 2007.

As far as I could see, it looked like Massa wanted to be of more HELP to Alonso than Raikkonen.....

.......the dude couldn't even do the FAKE MISTAKE properly, as can be seen by so many "experts" immediately calling Massa's bluff.

Todt- Massa, slide your car into a FAKE MISTAKE!!Massa- Okay ... 'slides big time, almost spins in the gravel & DNF's'Todt- Wow, that was mighty skills, almost ruining our championship.Massa- Should I do it again, as some forumers might pick up the FAKE. Todt- No, thats enough. We need to give them experts something to critize Kimi in 2012.

Yep, so he was either was held up by Kimi by 2 seconds - which would mean that Massa was quite slow on his own outlap as Kimi´s out lap was still faster (and therefore also knew, that he could go at normal speed in the following two laps as he lost already enough time on his outlap) - or he wasn´t exactly pushing between start/finish and turn 3 of that lap.

..."so loses more than 1,5 on the lap after Kimi rejoins in front of him. " you forgot to include this one in the quote. with this selective quoting to support your argument, you're making it hard for others to take you seriously.and I think it was already mentioned by Oho that the outlap of Massa was 1 second slower because of being fuelled for 3 laps longer than Kimi was for his outlap, and being in the pits 0,8 seconds longer than Kimi.

..."so loses more than 1,5 on the lap after Kimi rejoins in front of him. " you forgot to include this one in the quote. with this selective quoting to support your argument, you're making it hard for others to take you seriously.

I misread your post and thought you were talking about the following lap (which would´ve been quite irrelevant).

edit: Back on topic. Team orders are fine by me but when you do it with a "B' team that is stretching it a little far.

How about agreeing that Vergne just let a driver past without any involvement from the other teams? He let Schumi past in exactly same manner in exactly same place in that race. Was that also an order from someone?

I misread your post and thought you were talking about the following lap (which would´ve been quite irrelevant).

sorry, I meant it as [so loses more than 1,5 on the lap] [after Kimi rejoins in front of him], but now I see it is possible to interpret it as [so loses more than 1,5 on the lap after] [Kimi rejoins in front of him] so to be clear, I meant it as he lost 1,5 to Kimi after Kimi rejoined, and in the lap where he was 2 seconds slower than before.

sorry, I meant it as [so loses more than 1,5 on the lap] [after Kimi rejoins in front of him], but now I see it is possible to interpret it as [so loses more than 1,5 on the lap after] [Kimi rejoins in front of him] so to be clear, I meant it as he lost 1,5 to Kimi after Kimi rejoined, and in the lap where he was 2 seconds slower than before.

would you like me to delete the #134?

It´s up to you, i don´t mind.

Of course my remark about that 2sec difference is obsolete now. However my basic argument about that remains, no matter whether we´re talking about half a second or two seconds. Yes, it looked close and Massa could´ve orchestrated a bigger margin, before Kimi exited the pits - but the teams are pretty precise in precalculating such things and Ferrari always had everthing control and if it would have turned out that Massa still would be leading after Kimi´s stop instead, then Massa still would´ve had the opportunity to prevent that easily by lifting at the right moment.

I´m quite sure you won´t agree with me - but you don´t have to.

I for myself tend to think, that it´s not a coincidence, that a driver, who controlled the whole race so far, made such a easy mistake exactly at the time Ferrari needed it, to make one of their driver´s a world champion.

How about agreeing that Vergne just let a driver past without any involvement from the other teams? He let Schumi past in exactly same manner in exactly same place in that race. Was that also an order from someone?

Please excuse my sloppy writing. I meant to say that I have no problem with team orders but I have a problem with the "concept" of a B team helping an A team or a situation where say the Mercedes team let's a Mercedes engine team through.

Please excuse my sloppy writing. I meant to say that I have no problem with team orders but I have a problem with the "concept" of a B team helping an A team or a situation where say the Mercedes team let's a Mercedes engine team through.

"I think we had a perfect teamwork, Felipe helping all the time also."

"We had a hard fight with him all year but then he unfortunately didn't score and he couldn't be in the fight any more, so he's been a big help..."

"...we had it planned, we knew what we wanted to do as a team. We had a clear picture of that, so we were not really racing against each other, so a big thanks to the team, a big thanks to Felipe."

FM:

"Yeah, for sure we had everything to win the race today. The car was phenomenal, the team did a fantastic job, but I think it was pretty clear that the team was fighting for the championship and it was not going to be me who would stop that, so I was playing the game for sure, and trying to help the team if possible."

"We were talking beforehand that the only way for Kimi to win the championship was that Lewis should have to be out of the top six and if he was out of the top six and the team needed my support, I would be very happy to help and that's what I did."

It was so obvious, logical and normal what took place that day, and I seem to recall almost veryone acknowledging as much when it happened.

Since then, those attempts to rewrite history in to Kimi winning his title without his teammates help have become very popular, but in the end they are still only one thing: hilarious.

So in that sense saying Massa could have won by himself is also flawed if they were never racing each other. Obviously Kimi never pushed either in that scenario and the only indication we could look from is him generally beating Massa on race pace in the 2nd part of the season.

I could believe that, no problem. After all, the only aspect that doesn't fit is Massa "faking" a mistake, locking up, running wide into the marbles, truly the most sensible thing to do 30 seconds in front of every other team, at the absolute climax of the championship with Ferrari needing both drivers to finish.

About Vergne letting Vettel through: there is nothing wrong with letting a significantly faster car by, especially a championship contender. However, if Vergne would (for example) let Vettel through but try to hold up the other title contender, that I couldn't accept. But that didn't happen at Abu Dhabi, did it? What about the other mid-field drivers? Did anyone actually put up a fight with Vettel? I can't remember.

And as for Brazil 2007... consider for example Hockenheim 2010. What if Alonso had managed to pass his teammate during pitstops? That would have removed the need for the team to interfere as they (luckily) would have got the result they wanted just through pure racing. In this case, would we still be making comments like "his teammate let him through", "he faked a mistake" (come on...), "the team engineered the result" and so on? And as far as Massa's later comments are concerned, if he said after Hockenheim "I let my teammate through" I would have no problem believing him, since there are videos showing him slowing down and letting his teammate through. Same with Kimi in China 2008. But giving up the win in Brazil 2007? I suppose Massa managed "the perfect crime" by deliberately letting his teammate through while maintaining the illusion of trying to stay ahead. And then he blew it all by blabbing about it to the press. And yes, he did help his teammate in Brazil 2007 - by finishing ahead of the McLarens.

And anyway there is absolutely nothing wrong with using (intra) team orders at the end of the season, when one of the drivers is out of the title fight. But maybe sometimes you get the result you need without having to do that?