Talk: Rider of Black

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I wonder if Rabicano, Astolfo's other steed, will appear in Apocrypha. From the sound of him, he'd be pretty epic to see.

"-and rides upon a horse named Rabicano. This magical horse is made of hurricane and flame, feeds on air and it treads so lightly that it doesn't leave footprints in the sand, and when it runs at full speed it can run faster than an arrow."

Sounds like an interesting second Steed to me. Zahadrin (talk) 00:32, February 10, 2013 (UTC)

With the problem of having forgotten the True Name of the Noble Phantasm, does that mean Astolfo can't utilize it, like Medea can't utilize Argon Coin due to lack of skill? Or do we not know yet? Zahadrin (talk) 04:17, February 14, 2013 (UTC)

Not necessarily. It's likely lost some effectiveness in having lost it's real name, but Kintaro would have used his Phantasm under a false name. And technically all the weapons Gilgamesh uses are nameless. Even those that signify him, Ea and Enkidu, were just named according to his whim. Hawkeye2701 (talk) 06:44, February 15, 2013 (UTC)

Random users, mostly anonymous ones, are constantly passing by, changing the gender of Astolfo to Female. Are they uncomfortable with the concept of traps? I don't know and I don't care.

What I care though, is the integrity of this fan encyclopedia. Please mods, admins, lock the page.

You can delete this message afterward if you think it doesn't have its place on Astolfo's talk page. Thanks. -- Hitsuji Mamoru (talk) 11:27, August 16, 2017 (UTC)

Well to be honest, I'm not 100% sure of Astolfo's gender because (s)he is explicitly referred to using only female gender pronouns in the official Netflix subtitles of the first half of the Fate/Apocrypha anime (I still haven't watched the second half)... but then I guess that might just be down to the translation. Ohdear15 (talk) 07:28, April 8, 2018 (UTC)

Is it with everybody, or just Jeanne? Either they are dumb, or they are going the extra mile for the reveal of Jeanne mistaking him as a girl and freaking out over seeing him nude. EGGS (talk) 10:52, April 8, 2018 (UTC)

I don't recall anyone besides jeanne and sieg in the first half using female pronouns to describe Astolfo. As well an unofficial translation of the novel, FateApocrypha.wordpress.com, makes note that Jeanne does use female pronouns for Astolfo. Also there is a jeanne seeing rider nude freakout scene with sieg's reponse the next day being:"to think Ruler had no idea".

While the two included sources list "Male" as Astolfo's gender, several more recent sources conflict with this.
The Fate Apocrypha Volume 3 Black Servant Profiles list statistics for those characters, and in this Astolfo has drawn over/obscured their own gender.
In Fate/Grand Order Materials III, page 188, their gender is listed as "性 別 ???( 本 人 の 要 望 に よ り 秘 密 )", "Gender: A Secret by the wishes of the writer". In the official English release of the game, "Gender: ??? As per Astolfo's request, their gender is a secret." Followed by consistent use of neutral pronouns throughout their profile.
If these inconsistencies did not warrant enough doubt, consider that Higashide has admitted not knowing what Astolfo's actual gender is after continuing to write them, as written and sourced in the current page. That should add additional uncertainty to the accuracy of the first source, which has an early design and profile from development. In fact, all of the sources that run counter to the "male" listing are more recent.
So, why shouldn't their gender be listed as Unknown or ???, as is the case with Chevalier d'Eon? Furthermore, why shouldn't neutral pronouns be used to refer to them, especially given that those are the preference of the character in question?

At the end of the day, he has a penis. That is confirmed beyond doubt in Apo, where the running joke through like three or four volumes is that Jeanne thinks he’s a girl and finds out the truth the hard way. Everything else is just to make a joke about his “trap” nature. EGGS (talk)<

Having a penis is a matter of sex if anything, not gender. Which also makes it irrelevant to pronouns, especially given the canon preference of the character indicated in their Fate/Grand Order profile. Regarding that 'joke' in Apocrypha, consider that Sieg states "To think she didn't know..." afterwards. This was a surprise; Sieg had thought that Jeanne was using female pronouns for Astolfo even though she knew about their body. Also, 'trap' is recognized as a slur/defamatory language. ( https://www.glaad.org/reference/transgender ) It's highly inappropriate, especially given the character explicitly dresses as they do simply because they like cute things, as stated and sourced in the page currently. It's nothing but their genuine presentation. In Fate/Grand Order, they also possess the Genderless trait, shared with Chevalier d'Eon and Enkidu, who correctly use singular they pronouns on this wiki already. And, again, their writer doesn't even know what's Astolfo's actual gender is.

Even if there's some objection to affirming a specific neutral gender to Astolfo, how is such ambiguity not enough to warrant it being listed as "Unknown" and neutral pronouns being used out of respect for that ambiguity and the character's wishes? Groudonguru (talk) 17:21, December 5, 2018 (UTC)

You're trying to apply a concept that doesn't exist within Astolfo's characterization. Regardless of how you feel about the term, he is a "trap" character, and that trope is very ingrained into anime/manga/VN culture. Everything about him is related to that joke. Any ambiguity is to reinforce that joke. D'eon is an actual transgender character. Enkidu and Qin are actual genderless characters. Astolfo is not. He is a guy who looks and acts girly. EGGS (talk) 18:31, December 5, 2018 (UTC)

I don't see how this is not part of their characterization. As Konoe notes on the 7th source on the page currently, Astolfo began as little more than that, but "become a wonderful character who follows [their] own path in a refreshing way while ignoring the established framework." The published stats from Apocrypha as well as Material and in-game profile and mechanics from Grand Order are characterization. It has gone past that archaic version. D'Eon is based off of a historic trans woman, yet is genderfluid in Fate canon. Why else would Astolfo share that mechanic with this extremely limited group of characters if not because it was significant, and why would they keep it "a secret" instead of lying if their intent was to deceive or get a rise? The existence of trans, queer, and gender nonconforming individuals is ingrained in humanity as a whole, as well as in Japanese culture- see the current trend of fewer people identifying as Otokonoko and increasing number of those identifying as X-gender or MtX.Frankly, while I can't think of a better way to decribe a queer-identifying individual than "following their own path while ignoring established framework", a proof of that isn't needed for this change. There's more than enough to cast doubt on a "male" identity, so ambiguity for the sake of abstaining judgement seems more than appropriate even before you weigh in that that is the way the character has consisently expressed preference to be represented. Groudonguru (talk) 18:50, December 5, 2018 (UTC)

You're thinking way too seriously about this. You're missing the point of his entire character. You're trying to apply mostly a western view of this, but Japan does not. While there are some serious series that take a critical look at things like that, the trope of "trap" characters is a joke. EGGS (talk) 19:06, December 5, 2018 (UTC)

Wouldn't the easiest thing be just including both Male and Unknown. There are sources for both so both should be included. Now what pronoun the article should use is not really that bid of a deal (if somebody want's to dig through the page to change every "he" into a "they" then go right ahead). Apocrypha used a male pronoun (or at least it was translated as a male pronoun), so I guess the question would be what pronoun GO uses in the story to refer to Astolfo. Alterdream (talk) 19:13, December 5, 2018 (UTC)

What is the point of the wiki, an encyclopedia for the characters, if it doesn't take them seriously and provide full accurate information about them? Nobody misses that point of the character, but not updating it with all resources and points available is misleading. There are a number of legitimate aspects to this character that aren't represented on the page and already brought up you haven't seemed to address. Included is a quote from their writer saying plainly that their gender is uncertain, as well as noting on current Japanese queer culture, as well as otokonoko having a much wider meaning than 'trap' and significance in older Japanese queer culture. It seems highly pertinent to the wiki to document these subtleties, and again, to respect the pronouns and gender that the character has expressed preferece for multiple times.It is unavoidable that their design is rooted in this 'joke', to say nothing of the inaccuracy of the trope and harm it represents to queer people, but it seems negligent to deliberately refuse more thorough information on how the character has progressed throughout the series' development. Especially when it serves to veil canon representation for a minority group in a franchise that attracts a lot of attention from LGBTQ people given the prevalence of LGB characters and assorted twists and takes on sex/gender in characters. Groudonguru (talk) 19:35, December 5, 2018 (UTC)

OK, I'm done with this conversation. You're going way too far down a non-existent rabbit hole. Under the gender section of the infobox, you can feel free to add in "??? (requested to be kept a secret by the person themself)" cited to FGO/FGO mats under "Male." Other than that, we won't be changing anything else. EGGS (talk) 20:11, December 5, 2018 (UTC)

It still seems ridiculous to add that after rather than replace, given that's it's inclusive of the old information anyways. It seems from the older talk sections that this page has faced valdalism issues and trolls in the past, but that's still no reason to ignore this. These are real issues, and putting a derogatory trope not only on par with but above them is awful practice, and doesn't serve to do anything but validate an actual slur and ignore the wishes of the character in question. It's significant to the character's development, potentially worthy of noting, but it doesn't need to eclipse the other materials in question. I would more than gladly fix the pronouns throughout the page, if given the ability to actually do so. Groudonguru (talk) 20:35, December 5, 2018 (UTC)

He gave his answer. I advise letting it go. Zahadrin (talk) 20:46, December 5, 2018 (UTC)