kellory wrote: I respect your service, though you seldom talk about it. If you served, without a clear understanding why, then that sounds like a personal problem.

I don't bring my service up all the time because frankly, it was unremarkable. I never served in combat. In fact, I never even deployed in support of a combat mission. I volunteered. I took the oath. I did my duty. I don't romanticize it. That being said, I sure as heck won't justify my service, or the reasons I served, to someone who NEVER DID. I could not care less about earning the respect of someone who's contribution to the defense of this nation and its Constitution was being rejected by a recruiter. I may not have the Medal of Honor around my neck but I'm not about to take lessons in the value of the US Constitution from someone who's never done anything to defend and uphold it.

And as for this being a personal grudge? Sorry, you are not that high on my radar.

Do you want to make any more personal remarks about my military service or my motivation, or should we stick to the issue?

I can not carry concealed or open in "gun free zones", or in any business that has a sign prohibiting concealed carry. To me, those are more stringent than they should be, since those are the places an armed psychopath is most likely to go on a rampage such as Sandy Hook.

Welcome rthomas4, I couldn't agree more with the content of your post. I find it hard to believe that the anti-gun crowd can't or won't believe that "gun free zones" are an open invitation to people with bad intentions. Most, if not all, mass shootings in recent memory have taken place in areas labeled gun free. In Colorado, one of the 7 local theaters was gun free, the one that had the shooting. After that tragedy, another of the 7 theaters joined the ranks of gun free.........brilliant.

One answer I didn't get from Durbin's reply or any other gun control advocate is, how are you going to get the criminals to comply with new gun laws this time when they've never cared about the laws already in place? Joe Biden said they "don't have time" to prosecute people who fail background checks. Isn't it a criminal act to attempt a gun purchase when you have a record? They have plenty of time to travel the country on our dime trying to find more people who will get behind their agenda of slowly but surely disarming us.

kellory wrote: I respect your service, though you seldom talk about it. If you served, without a clear understanding why, then that sounds like a personal problem.

I don't bring my service up all the time because frankly, it was unremarkable. I never served in combat. In fact, I never even deployed in support of a combat mission. I volunteered. I took the oath. I did my duty.Thank you for your service (to this point I don't romanticize it. That being said, I sure as heck won't justify my service, or the reasons I served, to someone who NEVER DID. I could not care less about earning the respect of someone who's contribution to the defense of this nation and its Constitution was being rejected by a recruiter.If a one armed man in a wheelchair showed up for service, I would show him more respect than you do. I may not have the Medal of Honor around my neck but I'm not about to take lessons in the value of the US Constitution from someone who's never done anything to defend and uphold it.Really? Perhaps you should read it first. Then the Federalist Papers, Learn the men who designed it, and why. These men threw away property, money, family they would never see again. They designed the blueprint of this nation.I will honer them for that, and will work to preserve their works. I am averaging 4 hours sleep a night, as I fill out polls, surveys, write Congressmen, Call Sheriff's to thank them for standing up to Federal Unconstitutional laws, ect. (there are more ways to serve than shooting guns, and doing push-ups)

And as for this being a personal grudge? Sorry, you are not that high on my radar Sorry, but this is a lie. .

Do you want to make any more personal remarks about my military service or my motivation, or should we stick to the issue?

Sticking to issues is not something you are very good at. It was you who derailed into slavery, Illuminati, racism, and grandstanding with comments of "I will not debate this garbage. I won't even participate in a forum that allows it to remain on the site. I'm out until it has been removed." Do you plan to hold your breath until you turn blue next? Or just take your ball and go home? The histrionics serve no purpose here. I deal in facts,and logic,history and precedence, not emotions. Can you stick to the issues, or not? Can you discuss issues without the histrionics, or not?

The only real difference between a good tracker and a bad tracker is observation. All the same data is present for both. The rest is understanding what you are seeing.

Nope, no histrionics. All of those references were entirely on point for those who can follow along. The issue of slavery was to point out (quite factually) that the historical militia was used for a lot more than defending hearth and home from tyranny. The militia has a history of tyranny itself. As the founding fathers said, it must be regulated, both in arms and in conduct. As for racism? My goodness! Have you actually read some of the things you and some of your reactionary allies have said? I'm not going to bother dragging the quotes over because they make me queasy. You know what you are, and so do I. And the Illuminati reference is to point out the outrageous, conspiracy obsessed nature of some of the posts. You want to "man the walls"? Say what?

Kellory, I know you feel like this is all about you and I'll admit, some of the things you've posted have made me want to walk away from the forum. But there are other posters who shadow some of your opinions without the extremes and some who are here for reasonable discussion of the topics at hand. Cutting and pasting other peoples writing, questioning the service of veterans, claiming to be the only one who has read the Constitution and being violently intolerant of all disagreement seems to pretty well color my view of your contribution to any vaguely political thread. If they were all like you, believe me I would have left and stayed away. Fortunately, they are not.

I may be on the top of your list. After all, I'll Ive ever done to defend the Constitution is a few pushups and shot a rifle a few times and you've stormed into a recruiters office in a fit of emotion and cut and pasted articles on the internet. You are a real patriot. I can see why you need to take me out of the loop. But my list does not include you at all. I'm on this forum to discuss things with reasonable and responsible people and not internet militia commanders. How about this,I'll do my best to ignore you and let you discredit yourself with your own rantings and you can have at me as you will. Call my service, my patriotism, and even my manhood into question all you want. Leave my family and my faith out of it and we'll be just fine.

Unfortunately the liberal precept is to punish the victim and not the offender. When we consider that Biden, a lifelong anti-gun leftist was placed in the role of formulating a plan to his occupier in chief; it's obvious that there was no serious effort being placed on how to deal with the violence enacted by psychopaths who just happened to possess firearms in the commission of their felonious acts. The agenda of the liberal socialists has been simple disarmament of the American people, in order to promote their brand of civil subservience to the complete socializing of our Republic. The real reason for the current debate doesn't actually have anything to do with gun control; rather it's about control of the people. As I stated, demise of the Second will create the domino effect that crashes the entire Bill of Rights. And that is the ultimate goal of the ultra liberal left in this country. A country where those who work and provide for themselves and their families are forced to support the third and fourth generations of welfare recipients. George Soros has openly stated that socialism is his vision of a global new world; and since he's the man behind the curtain, Obama is simply reacting as a puppet should. Is it any wonder that in the last two elections, it was companies owned or affiliated with Soros that leased the voting machines to the states? Does it make any difference that many absentee military votes were processed (or thrown out) by Soros' companies? How is it possible that entire towns and cities didn't have a single registered vote against Obama? It's these questions and the people who ask them that gun bans and potential gun control is actually about. Control the guns, and control the people is not a new concept. All we have to do is study history and see that gun control has led to a complete domination of entire populations in other countries. The attitude of a moron like Biden is not only disrespectful of our laws, but a slap in the face to law abiding citizens, and to allow someone like him to outline policy is like putting the monkeys in charge of the banana plantation!!!!

JPH wrote:Nope, no histrionics. All of those references were entirely on point for those who can follow along. The issue of slavery was to point out (quite factually) that the historical militia was used for a lot more than defending hearth and home from tyranny. The militia has a history of tyranny itself. As the founding fathers said, it must be regulated, both in arms and in conduct. As for racism? My goodness! Have you actually read some of the things you and some of your reactionary allies have said? I'm not going to bother dragging the quotes over because they make me queasy. You know what you areYes, I do., and so do INo, I'm afraid you do not.. And the Illuminati reference is to point out the outrageous, conspiracy obsessed nature of some of the posts actually, it shows how tightly closed your mind is. . You want to "man the walls"? Say what?This is one of the oldest forms of military service. Guard forces/ sentries often used older men to watch for threat. They served their countrymen best there. They were also the last line of defense.

Kellory, I know you feel like this is all about you and I'll admit, some of the things you've posted have made me want to walk away from the forum. But there are other posters who shadow some of your opinions without the extremes and some who are here for reasonable discussion of the topics at hand. Cutting and pasting other peoples writing, questioning the service of veterans, claiming to be the only one who has read the Constitution I will admit,Sometimes it does feel like it. and being violently Another lie. I have shown violence to no one. intolerant of all disagreement Intolerant? By all means, state your points, but do it with facts, and keep it on point, no one can argue with your emotions.seems to pretty well color my view of your contribution to any vaguely political thread. If they were all like you, believe me I would have left and stayed away. Fortunately, they are not.

I may be on the top of your list. After all, I'll Ive ever done to defend the Constitution is a few pushups and shot a rifle Not how I see it, but you are welcome to your opinion a few times and you've stormed into a recruiters office in a fit of emotion(Arguing from a stand-point of emotion didn't work very well, did it?) and cut and pasted articles on the internet. You are a real patriot. I can see why you need to take me out of the loop.I don't want you out of the loop, I never have. State you points, defend your position, but do it without mockery, disdain, and emotion. But my list does not include you at all. I'm on this forum to discuss things with reasonable and responsible people and not internet militia commanders I am not part of any unit, or organization for the purpose of Militia. i have met Militia on our Southern Border, and found them to be reasonable men, using their own weapons, supplies, gas, and money to watch the border, better than our Government does.. How about this,I'll do my best to ignore you and let you discredit yourself with your own rantings and you can have at me as you will. Call my service, my patriotism, and even my manhood into question all you want. Leave my family and my faith out of it and we'll be just fine.

I haven't mentioned your religion, or your family, though you have.

The only real difference between a good tracker and a bad tracker is observation. All the same data is present for both. The rest is understanding what you are seeing.

So anyway. The point I've been trying to make is that Constitution was not the product of devine inspiration. It is a very well thought out document, worthy of our respect and attention, but it must be taken in context and continually adapted to the context of our times. Let us never forget that many of the men who founded a nation on the premise that all men are created equal and endowed by the Creator with certain inalienable rights, owned other human beings as slaves. If that does not force you to look long and hard at the context of the document, nothing will.

The militia too has a checkered past. American history is riddled with massacres, lynchings, riots, and acts of terrorism carried out by the militia. I don't point these facts out to demean the militia as a whole, but to highlight the need to keep the militia well regulated. And yes, well regulated does mean under a degree of control as well as properly equipped.

Who do I trust to regulate the militia? I agree that the current administration, nor any administration for that matter, is a bad choice. I trust the militia itself! And by that I do not mean a bunch of beer gutted wannabes, running around playing paintball and pretending they are fighting the government and "illegals". I am talking about the real militia. The reasonable, mentally fit, experienced gun owners and concerned citizens of this country. I think that we should approach the question of violence and public safety from positions of reason and openess rather than stubbornness and fear. I also think it should be done with the end goal of a safer, more peaceful, and freer society, instead of simply holding onto our guns alone.

As long as I have the freedom to select the arms I require to keep myself "well regulated" as described in the Constitution as my inalieable birthright then we are on the same page.

I knew you'd eventually see things my way!

Honestly, WW! I think that is the $1,000,000 question. What is the necessary level of armament needed for an individual to maintain a reasonable ability to defend oneself and sereve as member of the militia in modern America and what level of armament represents a danger? And before you even say it, I know that nukes are safe in the hands of the right person. But the fact remains, the militia cannot be trusted blindly. Just ask the folks who were camped near Sand Creek.