Masons and conspiracy theories

Originally posted by Leveller
Have you ever actually sat down and read "Morals and Dogma". Or as I suspect, do you get your quotations of the book from sites like
freemasonrywatch.com?

If the latter, which is the more likely, then you aren't actually doing anything other than quoting parrot fashion somebody else's opinion. An
opinion that is biased and foolish. Unless you actually read the whole book, how can you tell a single thing about the context in which it was
written?

As for brainwashing? You need a rinse.

Read it, and it really confirmed what I was thinking.You, see what you want to.

Aside from my academic standing, you're right, it does mean absolutely nothing. Now, since you're the one who claimed that your 3.4 standing
in school made you an authority, perhaps you'll now admit that that means nothing, too?

I have a kid, a job, and I have come from nothing.Not to mention I only got the 3.4 barely studying, and constantly off of the sticky green.

So, we should admire your lack of hard work?

I sais the foundation for freemasons is satanism, and if you paid attention to detail, you would notice it to.

It doesn't take much "attention to detail" to notice your slanderous claims about Freemasonry. If you'd paid any attention to detail, you would
have noticed long ago that I am a Christian (nominally Anglican) and (in my estimation) a very religious person, not a Satanist. You would have also
read how the person in chargee of Scottish Rite Masonry for all of Canada is a devout Lutheran.

My grandfather was a price hall mason, and even he said that there were secrets involved, and that true masonry, was more secretive than what he was
involved in.

I assume that you mean that I am a damned liar. Well, as for being damned, there's no way I can argue that with you... I have either been vouchsafed
salvation or not. It is my belief that all human beings (regardless of belief) were vouchsafed salvation through the actions of our Saviour, but that
is my opinion. You are certainly free to believe me damned to eternal perdition if it pleases you.

As for being a liar, no, I'm not, nyah nyah. Sorry, but if you say "you're a liar" without any argument, what can I say but "no, I'm not."

The government pretends to do a lot of great things too, but we all know that they are not all that nice though right.

I don't know... I like my government (that of Canada). I don't like some people who are in it, but I think that in general they do a good job.

Albert Pike even says it has secrets, secret meanings for symbols, and that the higher masons mislead those under them, who diserve to be mislead.

Nope. Albert Pike says that the explanations given for symbols in "lower mysteries" generally were misleading. This is one of the few places I
disagree with Morals and Dogma philosophically. I feel that both the "obvious" meaning of the symbols and the more esoteric ones are valid and
truthful. Just because you learn not to embezzle, doesn't mean that you forget that shoplifting is wrong.

YOur first year of masters, is still not a masters, remeber that!

I'd go even further... the credential is meaningless to our discussion. I'm glad you agree, since you seemed to feel earlier that your 3.4 average
was significant to our talk, somehow.

You cannot change what has been written, you can't change the symbols, and everything you say just isn't.

This is either incomplete or terribly profound. It's true that everything I say isn't, for all is a manfiestation of the power of the Allmighty,
and for me to lay claim even to my own words is hubris. But I'm not sure if this is what you intended.

Anybody whoi pays wattention to detail will know.I AM NOT STUPID!

I'm sure you're not. So why do you let Freemasonry Watch and Cutting Edge Ministries do your thinking for you?

So what I said the moon goddess, your point?People on this site swear that they can prove something, or can twist what someone says, but when they
try, they are just not that good at it.

That's true, some people can do that.

All of you guys sites are either made by masons, or researched throuhg masons, so of course they are not going to come out and say"Yeah we are
satanists, you bet ya, come on in!"

True, we would not say that if we were Satanists and liars, and we also would not say that if we were good decent people. I guess you actually have
to use your noodle and trust your fellow human beings.

I can tell that you have had money all of your life, and your race is in the upper majority.If you have struggled like I have, you could tell bs a
mile away.

Hmmm. I myself was very priveledged as a child. On the other hand, my parents were separated during an important point in my development, which made
me very sad. On the other hand, I was always exposed to the best public schools because of my test scores (which I don't think are necessarily
valid). On the other hand, I was abused in bad ways by certain people when I was a child. On the other hand, my parents have always been supportive,
if stern.

Gee, I guess I've had both positive and negative influences in my life. Maybe now that I'm an adult, I have to start taking responsibility for my
own actions, and not judging people on the basis of whether or not they grew up poor?

YTry dealing with people who try and rob and steal from you everyday, by using discreet swindling tactics, you will start to be able to tell it from a
far.

Could be. I am very trusting of people, you see. This has less to do with having money than it does with the words of a certain Exemplar I hold dear
who told me to turn the other cheek (something I have to practice more), to love my enemies as myself, to be charitable, etc.

Sorry to be so open about having grown up in a moneyed family. We don't really seem to have the same feeling about that up here as some people
apparently do down in the states... down there, it seems, some people evaluate other people based on how much money they had growing up. Up here,
we're forced to base our judgements on a person's integrity and character.

You probably could not.You see, when you have everything, or used to everything being giving to you, you rarely realize how bad people can really
be.

I try not to. I try to think the best of everyone, and love my enemy as I love myself.

Oh I got a 3.8, so?You are no better or smarter than me, friend.

I know I'm not. Do you? You seem to very aggressively attack other people. In my experience, this means that you're not as confident of yourself
as you might be.

Your own man said what he said, the pieces fit, get a clue.

My own man? Jesus? Mohammed? Krishna?
Perhaps you mean my sovereign, Her Royal Majesty? Ah, but she is a woman.
You don't mean Moses, do you?

Oh, wait... I see... you probably mean Albert Pike. Albert Pike was a brilliant philosopher, and many of the things he said move me deeply. These
were things about equality of all humans, freedom of thought, and care for each other. He had a few faults. He sometimes wrote mean, untrue things
about black people... yet he was good friends with the black Grand Master of the Prince Hall Lodge. Many of the things you think he wrote, he did not.
So, what things specifically that he said are you upset about?

How about this, tomato,toma'to, same freaking thing!the sites you posted were obviously some of the biggest masonic propaganda ever.Idolizing
Albert Pike 1st, and then saying ain't no satanist, or masonic symbols came from some where else, but still used today, (the eye and pyramid thing
can be found on several masons tombs in dc).It does not matter how you flip the story, it still doea not change anything.Most of the stuff presented
is irrellevant to my questioning.You masons should all be defense lawyers!

Originally posted by jhova
[My backbone is the classes that I took in religion, sacred religious places, and ancient civilizations, without them ,no basis for what I think. The
things I use as "evidence" is to get brainwashed people to wake up.You can't go up to a person who has been thinking one thing his whole life, and
then pop a totally different scenario on them, they will look at you like "huh", pretty much like most on this site.They are like, "a scientist or
a professional did not say it at a press conference or something.The government did not say it, why should I beleive it" even though the government
has been corrupt since day1!What evidence do you need?An example?How about Albert Pike quoted as saying it himself or hinting it inhas book and the
connections with the government and its leaders, and its monuments and there back grounds and relations to mystery religions and other secret
organization, yeah dummy, I have no reason tho think what I think other than a movie!

Well I could not decide on which rediculous hate propoganda to start with so I decided to start with this post. Jhova I am not currently a freemason
nor by any means rich. I live in New York City and work to support myself and go to college in an attempt to better myself. Something I have realized
while researching other things is that ONE person is not enough to base your conclusions on. I see you and alot of other people on this web site
citing Albert Pike like he is the word of God. Unfortunately he is one man out of MILLIONS of good men that work to better themselves and the rest of
society. I am no stranger to fraternal orginazations with secrets as I am a member of the Order Of Demolay and know MANY master masons who are in good
standing. I have been to the tallest masonic lodge in the US and I believe the world and they openly let me, a non-mason look around and marvel at the
opulence of their property. What I can unequivocably say is that there were no sacrificial pits or satanic symbols ANYWHERE in the entire 19 floors of
this building. You my friend spew hate propoganda and for lack of better things to do I would suppose you choose to sit on the internet bashing people
who would openly show you whatever it is you wanted to see. In the masonic district I live in they even have open installment of officers. How does
the old saying go .. the girl who cried wolf? You keep spewing this hate and nobody really is going to care when some other malicious group actually
does threaten something. As for you resorting to name calling? That is the weakest form of arguement. The strongest being factual. You receive nothing
but facts from these men and inevitably you will call me a sheep or a bandwagon jumper but as I have facts and you simply have derrogatory names your
arguement will lose every time, whether you chose to believe it or not. As Masonic Light has said if you replace all the things you say with another
group like Jews or blacks instantly you would be a terrible person, unfortunately people have a predisposition against the good Masons do. Get your
head out of the clouds and look around reality my friend.

edit: Rather then re-post I will edit my original post. Jhova you did exactly as I said you would and immediately resorted to name calling rather then
addressing me and my post. Regardless of your background perhaps you should try going to a local lodge and asking a mason face to face if you could
look around. As I said I know many masons and im sure they would be happy to ablige. I am pro-masonry just like I am pro-the march of dimes or
pro-juvenile diabetes awareness. When something helps humanity it is good for humanity, and I support it. NO I AM NOT A FREEMASON. To sum up I dont
think that anyone should bother with J-Hove because it is obvious he is not willing or able to see both sides of a subject.

I spoke of my gpa to get some recognition around here, and to show that i was not just some kid with no education if you paid attention.I got a 3.4
barely studying, at the best school in my state, one of the best 10 in the nation.Remeber that!And of course people should be judged by character.But
according to the holocaust, the slave trades, slaughter of native americans, and countless others, also with racism today, there is not much about
character going on in the us.It is hard out here buddy.Its not all peachy like Canada.I have lost many to the struggle, just to survives, let alone
try to expose, or realize what is going on in this country.Intellect should be judged not just by grades, but by adversity, and overcoming it.Those
are the things that can cause people to think outside of the box, and realize that the world has become evil(sepecially the us, not excluding anyone
else either).To see evil, you must know it first, or have known it or how can you see it.The thing is, I never said that every individual mason is
evil, or practice satanism.I said from the beginning that the basis and foundation, thousands of years ago was.Of course the things that the lower
masons participate in will be different, much like Christianity, and almost all religions are different from when they began.But some masons, usually
the highest ones, which are us government officials, or the royal family, who still believe in the true masonic powers.The great architect is not God
or Christ, because if he were, that would mean all non-Christians that are masons would be forced, unknowingly to praise Jesus, or God, which is
against there beliefs, you see, i see the outright lie that people keep avoiding and dancing around, indirectly answering questions.All the
"evidence" points right back to what I said.I have not tried to make all masons to look like bad guys, lets make that clear!

1. What about some quotes from the sources, like Albert Pike? I haven't read him, and I don't have time to right now, so direct quotes would be very
helpful. And please don't take them out of context. And please don't quote quotes quoted by other people. Since you have done so well in school,
I'm sure you know how to properly document your primary sources.

2. Your hostility and rudeness are hurting your case. Please rely on logic and evidence when presenting your point of view. Being a minority and poor
doesn't mean you need to be hostile and rude. I know. I am part of one of the smallest, poorest minorities in the US and I have found that hostility
and rudeness are the most uneffective forms of argument. They usually signal that the debater has a weak case.

3. Reading your series of posts, I can see that you believe your position is correct, but I don't see any specific, documented evidence supporting
your case. I'm willing to listen to all sides, but only if they use reasonable, supported arguments. My guess is a lot of people reading these posts
feel the same way. At this point, although I think you are sincere, I don't think you have come close to proving your case.

4. If you use an argument, like grade point average, as support for your authority in these matters, don't be surprised or hostile when others use it
in support of theirs. My GPA as an undergraduate was 3.95 with a double major in English and Applied Math with Computer Science, but I personally
don't think that makes me an expert on much of anything, certainly not Masonry. And I'm sure many people on ATS can best me at academic credentials,
in any case.

You are an intelligent person. You feel deeply about your argument. Please help us readers take you and your argument seriously by stepping back from
the hostility and giving us more evidence.

My GPA as an undergraduate was 3.95 with a double major in English and Applied Math with Computer Science,

[deletia]

Wow! That's very good! May I ask, if you don't find it too personal, what you do as a job now? I would think that for a student that good there
should be employment that fits all your strengths, but is there a job that uses both English and Applied Math?

1. What about some quotes from the sources, like Albert Pike? I haven't read him, and I don't have time to right now, so direct quotes would be very
helpful. And please don't take them out of context. And please don't quote quotes quoted by other people. Since you have done so well in school,
I'm sure you know how to properly document your primary sources.

2. Your hostility and rudeness are hurting your case. Please rely on logic and evidence when presenting your point of view. Being a minority and poor
doesn't mean you need to be hostile and rude. I know. I am part of one of the smallest, poorest minorities in the US and I have found that hostility
and rudeness are the most uneffective forms of argument. They usually signal that the debater has a weak case.

3. Reading your series of posts, I can see that you believe your position is correct, but I don't see any specific, documented evidence supporting
your case. I'm willing to listen to all sides, but only if they use reasonable, supported arguments. My guess is a lot of people reading these posts
feel the same way. At this point, although I think you are sincere, I don't think you have come close to proving your case.

4. If you use an argument, like grade point average, as support for your authority in these matters, don't be surprised or hostile when others use it
in support of theirs. My GPA as an undergraduate was 3.95 with a double major in English and Applied Math with Computer Science, but I personally
don't think that makes me an expert on much of anything, certainly not Masonry. And I'm sure many people on ATS can best me at academic credentials,
in any case.

You are an intelligent person. You feel deeply about your argument. Please help us readers take you and your argument seriously by stepping back from
the hostility and giving us more evidence.

that is the problem.Evidence is only evidence to those who choose to see it.I speak my mind, and I don't sugar coat anything.I think that is a major
problem with the world, not enough honesty.Too many people trying not to look bad, and stay on someones good side.Let me make this clear, I don't
care where you are from.I say what I say because of my own personal experieces, and I will forever.Anyone who knows me knows this.I guess too many of
you have grew up around nice people, in a nice world, well not me.My background, or anyones background will always be relevant, to see into that
persons mind to figure out, why they think the way that they do, you might be surprised.We could sit here and play wesite tag all day.

Originally posted by jhova
You are a bandwagon jumper!You should shut up.

Oh thats mature, whats next you gonna call me a dick rider?

So im a bandwagon jumper simply because I agreed with an individuals very accurate synopsis of you and your issues? If so thats fine, your words
bother me not, fore you have proven that your words, like your presence on this board, are irrelevant.

This topic is now 10 pages long, within those 10 pages you have posted 68 times, all without providing 1 bit of factual evidence. You have posted 68
posts of weak hypothetical claims, pointless insulting, argumentative name calling rants fueld by your misguided frustrations, closed mindedness, and
lack of knowledge and understanding. As far as this topic is concerned you are truly a waste of time and space.

However since you claim to be so confident in what you know, and your intimidating 1 year of research I challenge you to a debate (using factul cited
evidence) on your false accusations of Freemasonry. When I win, I would expect you to conceed, and refrain from endorsing, posting in, or starting
any further posts which claim a connection between satanism, devil worship, human sacrifce and Freemasonry. This will allow the members of this site
to clearly see the Truth as it comes out when one is required to provide factual evidence. So do we have a deal?

Originally posted by jhova
that is the problem.Evidence is only evidence to those who choose to see it.I speak my mind, and I don't sugar coat anything.I think that is a major
problem with the world, not enough honesty.Too many people trying not to look bad, and stay on someones good side.Let me make this clear, I don't
care where you are from.I say what I say because of my own personal experieces, and I will forever.Anyone who knows me knows this.I guess too many of
you have grew up around nice people, in a nice world, well not me.My background, or anyones background will always be relevant, to see into that
persons mind to figure out, why they think the way that they do, you might be surprised.We could sit here and play wesite tag all day.
[Edited on 18-5-2004 by jhova]

I don't really care how I look. Never much have. And I don't sugar-coat things, either. So let me make this clear. I did not grow up in a nice,
nice, never never land. I was born to a poor family. My half-brother started sexually abusing me when I was 5. My mom died when I was 7. By the time I
was 8, I had been beaten, raped, and half-starved. I frequently went for 2 or 3 days without eating. The world was not a nice place.

You are absolutely right about background being relevant. My experiences in childhood are very relevant to who I am today. I decided that I was not
going to be at all like the people who were so cruel to me. They were ignorant, hostile, and abusive. So I decided I would do everything I could to
grow up into a educated, rational, compassionate person. I'm still working on it.

Poverty and social disadvantage are no excuse for hostility and ignorance.

And I continue to say that you are not presenting any independently verifiable evidence. All you are giving us is your opinion and undocumented
paraphrases from vaguely indicated sources. And every time you present something like your grade point average or your minority status or your
disadvantaged background as support for your position, you withdraw its validity once someone else uses it to support their position, too.

If you want to believe what you believe because you like believing it, I have no problem with that. But if you want to convince reasonable,
intelligent people that your beliefs are correct, you have to offer objective, verifiable proof for your position. And you still haven't done that.

Come now Brothers! Surely you see that this "Jehova" is ignorant in every manner that the word describes.

He, like many many others, is unworthy of the light. It saddens me to a point to see supposedly( but judging from all I've read I will trust) Masons
quibble with such a person.

I know, you will speak of "befriending those that have not understanding" or "acting as bringers of light" to those that can not see it. But there
is a point where it is wise to leave the fool to foolishness! Remember the Three Pillars. Remember the truth of Tubal Cain.

As for the rest of you, un-initiated masses, I will leave this site. Before I go however, I'd like to point out a few quotes by true bringers of
Light, and let you all know that even though you see and shall never comprehend, The Great Architecht of The Universe has some pity for you all.

" We shall unleash the Nihilists and Atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to
the nations the effects of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil.

Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of
civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic spirits will be from that moment without compass, anxious for an
ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view, a
manifestation which will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered
and exterminated at the same time."

The Hallowed Albert Pike, 33rd degree (Morals and Dogma)

"Fictions are necessary to the people, and the Truth becomes deadly to those who are not strong enough to contemplate it in all its brilliance.
In fact, what can there be in common between the vile multitude and sublime wisdom? The truth must be kept secret, and the masses need a teaching
proportioned to their imperfect reason."

The Hallowed Albert Pike, 33rd degree (Morals and Dogma)

"The Blue Degrees are but the outer court of the Temple. Part of the symbols are displayed there to the initiate, but he is intentionally misled
by false interpretations. It is not intended that he shall understand them; but it is intended that he shall imagine he understands them. Their true
explication is reserved for the Adepts, the Princes of Masonry. "

The Hallowed Albert Pike, 33rd deg. (Morals and Dogma)

Or as another of the light said:

"When a Mason Learns the key to the warrior on the block is the proper application of the dynamo of living power, he has learned the mystery of
his Craft. The seething energies of Lucifer are in his hands, and before he may step onward and upward, he must prove his ability to properly apply
that energy."

The Revered Manly P. Hall 33 deg. (The Lost Keys of Freemasonry)

I will leave you all with this blatent reiteration:

"Masonry, like all Religions, all the Mysteries, Hermeticism and Alchemy, conceals it's secrets from all but the Adepts and Sages, The Elect,
And uses false explinations and misinterpritations of it's symbols to mislead those who deserve only to be mislead, to conceal the truth, which it
calls Light, from them, and to draw them away from it. The truth is not for those who are unworthy or unable to recieve it, or who would pervert
it."

Originally posted by jhova
I have not tried to make all masons to look like bad guys, lets make that clear!

So the insinuation that we are all keeping satanists in power doesn't make us bad guys then? Or ignorant? Or isn't belittling in any way?

See, there is a major problem with your theory. The fact is that we know who the so-called high masons are. Most if us share lodges with them,
sit in other degrees with them, are friends with them, spend our social time with them. Some of us are even the 32 degree masons whom you claim to be
so evil.

And there lies your problem. You assume ignorance from people you don't even know, in an order which you know nothing about.

Freemasonry is all about learning. Some of the world's greatest thinkers and innovaters were and are freemasons - hardly the type of people that
could have the wool pulled over their eyes by people with hidden agendas.

Now, you have no denial that the vast majority of freemasons are good men in your quote above. Could you therefore tell me how these so-called high
manipulators manage to run the world through freemasonry? They certinly don't get our money - that goes to charity. They certainly don't dictate our
spiritual belief - that goes to the individual's god. They certainly don't dictate our politics - we have no truck with politics in lodge.
So how do we keep your so-called "satanists" in power if we don't give them anything at all?

" We shall unleash the Nihilists and Atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to
the nations the effects of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil.

Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of
civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic spirits will be from that moment without compass, anxious for an
ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view, a
manifestation which will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered
and exterminated at the same time."

The Hallowed Albert Pike, 33rd degree (Morals and Dogma)

No. This is not from Morals and Dogma (nor anything Pike wrote... Pike was a devout Christian), and I have a very very strong suspicion that you are
not a Mason.

"Fictions are necessary to the people, and the Truth becomes deadly to those who are not strong enough to contemplate it in all its brilliance.
In fact, what can there be in common between the vile multitude and sublime wisdom? The truth must be kept secret, and the masses need a teaching
proportioned to their imperfect reason."

The Hallowed Albert Pike, 33rd degree (Morals and Dogma)

Not written by Pike, nor anyone else as far as I'm aware.

"The Blue Degrees are but the outer court of the Temple. Part of the symbols are displayed there to the initiate, but he is intentionally misled
by false interpretations. It is not intended that he shall understand them; but it is intended that he shall imagine he understands them. Their true
explication is reserved for the Adepts, the Princes of Masonry. "

The Hallowed Albert Pike, 33rd deg. (Morals and Dogma)

Mis-quoted and also out of context, but this does vaguely resemble something Pike said (which he himself later recanted, BTW).

Or as another of the light said:

"When a Mason Learns the key to the warrior on the block is the proper application of the dynamo of living power, he has learned the mystery of
his Craft. The seething energies of Lucifer are in his hands, and before he may step onward and upward, he must prove his ability to properly apply
that energy."

The Revered Manly P. Hall 33 deg. (The Lost Keys of Freemasonry)

First of all, no-one talks like that ("The Revered Manly P. Hall" indeed -- I think Hall was a genius, and even I don't talk that way). Secondly,
Hall wrote the above BEFORE he ever became a Mason.

I will leave you all with this blatent reiteration:

"Masonry, like all Religions, all the Mysteries, Hermeticism and Alchemy, conceals it's secrets from all but the Adepts and Sages, The Elect,
And uses false explinations and misinterpritations of it's symbols to mislead those who deserve only to be mislead, to conceal the truth, which it
calls Light, from them, and to draw them away from it. The truth is not for those who are unworthy or unable to recieve it, or who would pervert
it."

The Hallowed Albert Pike, 33rd deg. (Morals and Dogma)

Don't know if this is in M&D either, but even if it is, you're taking it out of context, much as if I were to say Jesus' "Cast not your pearls
before swine" meant we should lie to everyone.

With that, I leave you to your vices.

You're not a Mason, or if you are, there's something badly up with you. Nice try, though.

The first quote he gave is indeed fictitious; it was not written by Pike, nor is it found in Morals and Dogma.
The other quotes are technically accurate, but are of course posted here without context.
Interestingly, the Freemasonry Watch website has posted these quotes (including the fake one) in the exact same order. This leads me to believe that
"light bringer" or whatever his name was, has not read the book, but has simply copied and pasted inaccurate material from Freemasonry Watch.

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