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I guess I could say that I'm pretty against kickers being in the Hall of Fame. For the most part, for every big kick they've made, they'd had one that has costed their team a game. Jan Stenerud is a Hall of Fame kicker, and he missed one of the most important kicks of his life, in the 1971 AFC divisional playoff game against the Dolphins.

Remember, too, that Viniatieri missed two field goals in the Superbowl against the Panthers. If he would have made those two routine kicks, they wouldn't have needed to drive down at the end of the game to kick the game winner.

Tom Brady would be rated properly according to his talents and production...

He is. Kickers have nothing to do with that.

Yeah, Vinatieri has NOTHING to do with making the kicks that won Brady the championships that cause him to be overrated...

Hahaaahhahaahahahahahahha!!
Vinatieri won those games? In no way shape or form did he have more to do with those wins than a large number of his teammates. The Patriots won those SB's. Brady played a huge role in that. There are multiple kickers who would likely have had the same result as Vinatieri. Kickers make a very high percentage of their kicks. Nobody is as clutch as Brady at his position. Did Vinatieri move the ball down the field to put the Pats in position for the win? No. He did what many others are capable of.

Tom Brady would be rated properly according to his talents and production...

He is. Kickers have nothing to do with that.

Yeah, Vinatieri has NOTHING to do with making the kicks that won Brady the championships that cause him to be overrated...

Hahaaahhahaahahahahahahha!!
Vinatieri won those games? In no way shape or form did he have more to do with those wins than a large number of his teammates. The Patriots won those SB's. Brady played a huge role in that. There are multiple kickers who would likely have had the same result as Vinatieri. Kickers make a very high percentage of their kicks. Nobody is as clutch as Brady at his position. Did Vinatieri move the ball down the field to put the Pats in position for the win? No. He did what many others are capable of.

I agree that the Patriots won those games. Most people, however, seem to forget that fact when they rate Tom Brady. They seem to think Brady won those games all by himself. Vinatieri played a bigger role than anyone at the end of 2 of those games, and it was Vinatieri's score that won all 3 of those games for the Patriots. By the way, the original question was:

Originally posted by PalmerToCJ

Who knows what would've happened had they had Vanderjagt in there...

And I've seen what Vandershank does with a 40+ yard field goal with the game on the line, which is the reason I call him VanderSHANK. Had the Pats had Vandershank, they would have at least had to gone to OT in 2 of those 3 games.

The problem arises when people use statistics like a drunk uses a lamp post: for support instead of illumination.

If luck is where preparation meets opportunity, then clutch is where failure meets luck.

<Add1ct> setting myself on fire can't be that hard
<Add1ct> but tackling a mosquito might prove a challenge

Tom Brady would be rated properly according to his talents and production...

He is. Kickers have nothing to do with that.

Yeah, Vinatieri has NOTHING to do with making the kicks that won Brady the championships that cause him to be overrated...

Hahaaahhahaahahahahahahha!!
Vinatieri won those games? In no way shape or form did he have more to do with those wins than a large number of his teammates. The Patriots won those SB's. Brady played a huge role in that. There are multiple kickers who would likely have had the same result as Vinatieri. Kickers make a very high percentage of their kicks. Nobody is as clutch as Brady at his position. Did Vinatieri move the ball down the field to put the Pats in position for the win? No. He did what many others are capable of.

I agree that the Patriots won those games. Most people, however, seem to forget that fact when they rate Tom Brady. They seem to think Brady won those games all by himself. Vinatieri played a bigger role than anyone at the end of 2 of those games, and it was Vinatieri's score that won all 3 of those games for the Patriots. By the way, the original question was:

Originally posted by PalmerToCJ

Who knows what would've happened had they had Vanderjagt in there...

And I've seen what Vandershank does with a 40+ yard field goal with the game on the line, which is the reason I call him VanderSHANK. Had the Pats had Vandershank, they would have at least had to gone to OT in 2 of those 3 games.

I don't really feel like making a huge post right now. I'll just say that it sounds like you're giving Vinatieri far too much credit for those SB wins (as most do), and Brady not nearly enough.
I don't care what the original question was. I was responding to your post. The one where you implied that Tom Brady's greatness is somehow attributable to a kicker. And that without said kicker, he'd be any less of a QB than what he is. Tom Brady is rated properly. Whether you hear people speak of him among the all-time greats, or just mention him as a top 3 QB in the league today. Both are true.

Tom Brady would be rated properly according to his talents and production...

He is. Kickers have nothing to do with that.

Yeah, Vinatieri has NOTHING to do with making the kicks that won Brady the championships that cause him to be overrated...

Hahaaahhahaahahahahahahha!!
Vinatieri won those games? In no way shape or form did he have more to do with those wins than a large number of his teammates. The Patriots won those SB's. Brady played a huge role in that. There are multiple kickers who would likely have had the same result as Vinatieri. Kickers make a very high percentage of their kicks. Nobody is as clutch as Brady at his position. Did Vinatieri move the ball down the field to put the Pats in position for the win? No. He did what many others are capable of.

I agree that the Patriots won those games. Most people, however, seem to forget that fact when they rate Tom Brady. They seem to think Brady won those games all by himself. Vinatieri played a bigger role than anyone at the end of 2 of those games, and it was Vinatieri's score that won all 3 of those games for the Patriots. By the way, the original question was:

Originally posted by PalmerToCJ

Who knows what would've happened had they had Vanderjagt in there...

And I've seen what Vandershank does with a 40+ yard field goal with the game on the line, which is the reason I call him VanderSHANK. Had the Pats had Vandershank, they would have at least had to gone to OT in 2 of those 3 games.

I don't really feel like making a huge post right now. I'll just say that it sounds like you're giving Vinatieri far too much credit for those SB wins (as most do), and Brady not nearly enough.
I don't care what the original question was. I was responding to your post. The one where you implied that Tom Brady's greatness is somehow attributable to a kicker. And that without said kicker, he'd be any less of a QB than what he is. Tom Brady is rated properly. Whether you hear people speak of him among the all-time greats, or just mention him as a top 3 QB in the league today. Both are true.

Bottom line: Did Brady make the kicks? No. As always, Brady had to rely on the rest of the team to get the job done. Look at what happened to the Patriots in the two years in Brady's tenure as starting QB in New England in which the Patriots didn't have a top 10 scoring defense: 2002 and 2005. They missed the playoffs in 2002, and they made the playoffs in 2005, solely because they played in a HORRIBLE division, and got bounced by the first team with a competent offense they faced. I'm sure their defensive prowess has had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with their success though... :roll:

Also, had Brady been dealing with Vandershank kicking FGs for him instead of Vinatieri, the flip of a coin would have decided at least two of the Super Bowls the Patriots won. If you've EVER watched Vandershank kick a 40+ yard FG with the game on the line, you know this to be a fact. So, to say that in no way is Vinatieri is responsible for Tom Brady's current status is pretty ridiculous, considering that had those kicks been missed, those games would have been decided on the flip of a coin. If you honestly feel that anyone would be discussing Brady among the all-time greats had the Patriots not won 3 Super Bowls (a very distinct possibility had they not had Vinatieri), then your standards for "all-time greats" are pretty low, and considering the fact that he's never won without a great defense and a great kicking game that had to wind up bailing him out each and every time, I don't see why he should get so much credit for a team accomplishment, one that he had to rely on his kicker to complete each and every time. So, why should he get so much credit? If he shouldn't, why else would you consider him among the all-time greats?

The problem arises when people use statistics like a drunk uses a lamp post: for support instead of illumination.

If luck is where preparation meets opportunity, then clutch is where failure meets luck.

<Add1ct> setting myself on fire can't be that hard
<Add1ct> but tackling a mosquito might prove a challenge

Comment

I definately think he should, and he probably will. All those game winning kicks, without him the Pats don't have 3 SBs.

without terrell davis, the broncos are 0-6 in the super bowl. are you going to support his candidacy as well?

That's less uhh... tangible (i guess that's an ok word) than 3 game winning kicks. Yes TD made some plays in the super bowl, but everyone can make a case for people who made plays in the SB but are not in. What about Michael Irvin? No, I'm not going to complain. It all came to Vinatieri 3 times. 2 times in the actual SB, and once in the AFC championship. The last play. So yes, TD made some plays, but Vinatieri made 3 of the most clutch plays of all time. He's in IMO.

Comment

I definately think he should, and he probably will. All those game winning kicks, without him the Pats don't have 3 SBs.

without terrell davis, the broncos are 0-6 in the super bowl. are you going to support his candidacy as well?

That's less uhh... tangible (i guess that's an ok word) than 3 game winning kicks. Yes TD made some plays in the super bowl, but everyone can make a case for people who made plays in the SB but are not in. What about Michael Irvin? No, I'm not going to complain. It all came to Vinatieri 3 times. 2 times in the actual SB, and once in the AFC championship. The last play. So yes, TD made some plays, but Vinatieri made 3 of the most clutch plays of all time. He's in IMO.

he made some plays?

30 carries 157 yards and 3 touchdowns, after sitting out the second quarter with a migraine? and in a game in which john elway was compeltely ineffective (under 50% completions, 123 yards, 1 interception). i would say that's pretty dang tangible.

Comment

I definately think he should, and he probably will. All those game winning kicks, without him the Pats don't have 3 SBs.

without terrell davis, the broncos are 0-6 in the super bowl. are you going to support his candidacy as well?

That's less uhh... tangible (i guess that's an ok word) than 3 game winning kicks. Yes TD made some plays in the super bowl, but everyone can make a case for people who made plays in the SB but are not in. What about Michael Irvin? No, I'm not going to complain. It all came to Vinatieri 3 times. 2 times in the actual SB, and once in the AFC championship. The last play. So yes, TD made some plays, but Vinatieri made 3 of the most clutch plays of all time. He's in IMO.

he made some plays?

30 carries 157 yards and 3 touchdowns, after sitting out the second quarter with a migraine? and in a game in which john elway was compeltely ineffective (under 50% completions, 123 yards, 1 interception). i would say that's pretty dang tangible.

Yeah, he was a stud, but he didn't score the game winning TD on the last play of the game. That's what's getting Vinatieri in the Hall. So it's not a fair comparison.