Times have indeed changed Gingertom, I agree that nowadays in such a particularly " politically correct " world we live in, one can not be seen to even reprimand one's offspring let alone use physical force. Children know from an early age they are untouchable and threaten their parents with Childline and other such organisations ! We all know that the majority of children turn out fine when led by the example of their parents, but there is a huge group of young people who have not had that luxury. They have only seen bad behaviour, not only from their parents but indeed their grandparents too and this goes for the wealthy children with their sense of " entitlement " as well, although their abnoxious behaviour is different to what the less well off get up to. In general our young people are kind and caring with ambition and are extremely talented but I bet their parents had set standards quite strictly and certain lines could not be crossed. In my childhood most parents believed in discipline with a heavy hand, as did our teachers, we were afraid of every adult in authority, the local Garda, the Priests etc. woe betide you if any of the aforementioned had cause to call to your home to report some misdemeanour, oh the shame ! Looking back, what we got up was really harmless mischief but carried a heavy sentence !! I learned later in life how many unfortunate young children were sent to remote reform schools, eg Letterfrack,for very minor reasons and then to be abused and their lives turned upside down and made them so bitter in later life. I do think our judicial system is in disarray, sentencing is not consistent, people can commit multiple crimes and hardly ever see jail, people released on bail just to reoffend while waiting for their case to come up, I could go on, but the bottom line is that tough discipline is absent when they enter custody the first time, jail should be a place they never want to see again, which brings us back to the guidelines we got as children, and the punishment we expected for not abiding by them.

keeper wrote:Times have indeed changed Gingertom, I agree that nowadays in such a particularly " politically correct " world we live in, one can not be seen to even reprimand one's offspring let alone use physical force. Children know from an early age they are untouchable and threaten their parents with Childline and other such organisations ! We all know that the majority of children turn out fine when led by the example of their parents, but there is a huge group of young people who have not had that luxury. They have only seen bad behaviour, not only from their parents but indeed their grandparents too and this goes for the wealthy children with their sense of " entitlement " as well, although their abnoxious behaviour is different to what the less well off get up to. In general our young people are kind and caring with ambition and are extremely talented but I bet their parents had set standards quite strictly and certain lines could not be crossed. In my childhood most parents believed in discipline with a heavy hand, as did our teachers, we were afraid of every adult in authority, the local Garda, the Priests etc. woe betide you if any of the aforementioned had cause to call to your home to report some misdemeanour, oh the shame ! Looking back, what we got up was really harmless mischief but carried a heavy sentence !! I learned later in life how many unfortunate young children were sent to remote reform schools, eg Letterfrack,for very minor reasons and then to be abused and their lives turned upside down and made them so bitter in later life. I do think our judicial system is in disarray, sentencing is not consistent, people can commit multiple crimes and hardly ever see jail, people released on bail just to reoffend while waiting for their case to come up, I could go on, but the bottom line is that tough discipline is absent when they enter custody the first time, jail should be a place they never want to see again, which brings us back to the guidelines we got as children, and the punishment we expected for not abiding by them.

I must disagree somewhat, with your opinion Keeper. Historically, Ireland was a society governed by fear only a couple of decades ago. We should not return to that ideology and practice of fear. We must not bring up children with the assistance or veil of fear. It must be with the installation of respect into our children. Children cannot avail of childline to avoid interaction with the criminal justice system or to coerce their parents into capitulation, to allow them to carry on as they see fit!

Are there such weak parents existing currently in Ireland, who fear the threat of censure by Childline, when disciplining their children?
I doubt it.

Nobody's respect can be earned by making them afraid of authority. Access to education for all is the start, to begin to end criminality in all societies.

The Irish public suffered fear of the church, fear and shame caused by the State which undoubtedly pressurised parents to inflict child discipline with the literal heavy hand to which you refer. It is true that many children were sent to reform schools for very what were minor indiscretions but state authorities used the heavy hand to incarcerate kids, for what was then perceived as serious transgressions against the public order. The fear that was manufactured then, was subsequently used to chasten the Irish people and then created a societal false obedience.

Maybe today, the pendulum has swung the opposite way, to create a society which is uber-tolerant of criminality due to political correctness...... a point which has some merit too.
It is true that it is common that offences are committed by those who have been granted bail or are awaiting a summary trial at the District Court. There is a constitutionally protected presumption of a right to bail, afforded to the accused person but if an accused habitually offends they will receive a custodial sentence. A fairly common presentation at District Court would be a Section 4 theft offence...

Fair enough Gingertom, I always respect your replies and indeed have learned a lot from your knowledge of the laws of the land. Unfortunately the laws make great reading, but, when the law fails the man in the street and he suffers from whatever infringement to his life and gets no justice, well then he becomes bitter and in his mind the laws are in favour of the criminal. I've had my home ransacked twice and cars vandalised and was told by the Gardaí that a prosecution would never happen as the revolving door would have these scroats back out within days to reoffend again. I agree with you about education, but what if the these people don't want to be educated and couldn't care less about being law abiding citizens ? well then the padlock and key should be in the equation. I also believe that until these scroats feel the physical pain that they inflicted on their victims themselves nothing will be a deterrent.

This is the Irish Prison Service spend on inmate Training and Education :

Year Work Training Education
2012 €2 million €1.27 million
2013 €2 million €1.3 million
2014 €2.1 million €1.1 million
2015 €2 million €1.1 million
2016 €1.8 million €1.1 million
2017 €1.8 million €1.065 million

I am of the opinion that Education is a key component of offender rehabilitation, however it is not the only component and a holistic approach is needed. Putting offenders in prison and educating them is pointless if you send them out and back to the very same situation that put them inside. For rehabilitation to work, an offender needs a new start with none of his old temptations around him .... unfortunately that rarely happens and many prisoners are released back into the very section of community that got them in trouble in the first place. Also if the state spends its time and money investing in educating an offender, then there should be some form of contract that should the said offender continue to commit crimes, then he is liable to stronger punishment and loss of entitlements. The bottom line is that the tail cannot wag the dog... but it looks more and more like it is as I witnessed two young travellers caught with no ticket on the Luas last week and they immediately went on the attack "is it because I'm a traveller, is it?" one of them shouted as he went on to tell the inspector that he would have him charged with racism .... what chance has anyone got against that, you cant win and the inspector didn't.... the boys just jumped off at the next stop and verbally abused him as they did so.

Ps
Try finding out if all prisoners have their dole automatically stopped the day they are incarcerated

Keeper, I think burglary is an horrendous attack on one's private dwelling and is a shocking experience of invasion of that privacy. It must have been horrible for you and your family.
Addiction to drugs is one of the biggest reasons why this crime of burglary and that of shoplifting, is committed.
Break, convict and award lengthy prison terms for the leaders of the drug gangs in our Republic and see the societal difference evolve. Seize all of their assets and put the money into resources for positive social development such as Victim Support, Rape Crisis funding and negative situations which stem from the problems created by illegal drugs....and social housing.
The problem though is, who will fill their shoes as illegal drug use is an integral part of Irish life today and super lucrative.

The key word there is "Guidelines"..... it covers a multitude and masks the possibility that there is a communications issue https://extra.ie/2017/07/31/news/irish- ... -in-prison. That article highlights the long term prisoners, but what about the revolving door and the week to ten days prisoners .... I would guess that there are plenty of those and they would add up to a significant saving if their money was stopped instantly.

What this county says and what it does are two diffeent things as far as I can see, we are a laughng stock over the Childrens Hospital and yet it cant be sorted out without paying half a million euro to PCW ...... I wonder what PcW's annual income across all departments of the state is ? and what discount is sought ?

Today I reported to St Colmcilles Hospital at 10am for a second attempt at having a BP monitor fitted (the first one failed to record any results after 24 hours !), I arrived on time and was greeted otside by the striking nurses (who I fully support). In I go, to be told that no one is there to fit the machine ..... theres only the admin and cleaning staff around. I asked the obvious question ...... stating that "EVERYTIME I come in, I am asked for all my details. How is it that no one from admin was able to let me know my appointment was cancelled and send me a new appointment date ?". The guy just looked at me blankly as I said what is the point of having an overstaffed (and overpaid) admin section if they cant get the basics right. Yes I knew about the strike .... but like a fool I trusted them to have the common sense to get in touch with their patients, more fool me.

As I have said before, the States answer to everything is to throw money at it instead of actually fixing it and making it fit for purpose ..... the money to run the country properly is there, it is just being used in the wrong way.

The key word there is "Guidelines"..... it covers a multitude and masks the possibility that there is a communications issue https://extra.ie/2017/07/31/news/irish- ... -in-prison. That article highlights the long term prisoners, but what about the revolving door and the week to ten days prisoners .... I would guess that there are plenty of those and they would add up to a significant saving if their money was stopped instantly.

Toss to stop payments for short periods such as the time-frame you mention would be impossible to put into practical effect.
This is due to the fact that the courts, do not and should not ever, bear a responsibility to report sentences to the Dept of Social Protection.
Its the job of the Inspectors within the Dept to seek out such occurrences that may crop up in the courts.
For better or worse, the courts are there to apply the law solely .
Any other function, such as reporting an individuals ineligibility for payments to the Dept of Social Protection, is most likely beyond their powers (ultra vires) and could be viewed as a judicial interference with an individual's constitutional rights. I suspect this is why it is up to the individual who is sentenced, to report the imposition of a custodial sentence.
It must be noted that what if the convicted party is the sole recipient of the payment and to cut the funds may affect any family and children they have, who are completely innocent parties.
Its a very complex issue but I must say that the imposition of a fine directly associated with their benefits would be of merit to consider.

keeper wrote:Fair enough Gingertom, I always respect your replies and indeed have learned a lot from your knowledge of the laws of the land. Unfortunately the laws make great reading, but, when the law fails the man in the street and he suffers from whatever infringement to his life and gets no justice, well then he becomes bitter and in his mind the laws are in favour of the criminal. I've had my home ransacked twice and cars vandalised and was told by the Gardaí that a prosecution would never happen as the revolving door would have these scroats back out within days to reoffend again. I agree with you about education, but what if the these people don't want to be educated and couldn't care less about being law abiding citizens ? well then the padlock and key should be in the equation. I also believe that until these scroats feel the physical pain that they inflicted on their victims themselves nothing will be a deterrent.

keeper I am so sorry to hear about your break ins and car vandalisation . I feel that in certain areas of the city and country the rule of law has completely broken down and the vandals are laughing and thumbing their noses at everyone. Making life almost impossible for those who want to live in peace. I have to say that I when faced with these situations feel so lost and vulnerable and don't know what the future holds. Anarchy is all I can think

I am not afraid of tomorrow, for I have seen yesterday and I love today.
William Allen White

My post about my childhood and all my mother did for me seems to have created a furore. GT, I was never brought up to
be afraid of anyone, to respect my elders as and when necessary, yes. We were educated to the best of my parents ability - the boys went to Secondary School, the girls the Tech because the money was not there for Secondary School for all of us. My upbringing taught me that no-one was better than me, they might have more money or a bigger house but that was it. My mother was left a widow with 6 children, the youngest being a 2 y.o. We were taken on holidays, day trips etc., when my father was alive, unfortunately these ended when he died. However as soon as we were earning a wage my mother encouraged us to travel as much as possible.
Ireland in the 40's, 50's. 60's, 70's was a poor place, prosperity only came with admission to the EEC, however we did not live with 'a sense of entitlement' we worked for what we had. Robberies were few and far between - Murders were a complete rarity and was front page news for days.

Keeper, it is awful to have your home violated, I too have had that experience on more than one occasion. There has to be a deterrent for such wrong doers. Perhaps if the violated were allowed have a short time with the violater to show them the error of their ways this would save the country some money.

GT - The suggestion of TOSS that Social Protection monies be stopped if the individual is incarcerated could be very easily done. All that is required is a stay on the PPSN number obtaining a payment for the duration of the sentence imposed, whether or not it is served. An individual cannot be in receipt of two state payments, that is the law, it is an either/or e.g. a widow cannot receive a Contributory/Non-Contributory Pension and a Widow's Pension, he/she gets one or the other.

My post about my childhood and all my mother did for me seems to have created a furore. GT, I was never brought up to
be afraid of anyone, to respect my elders as and when necessary, yes. We were educated to the best of my parents ability - the boys went to Secondary School, the girls the Tech because the money was not there for Secondary School for all of us. My upbringing taught me that no-one was better than me, they might have more money or a bigger house but that was it. My mother was left a widow with 6 children, the youngest being a 2 y.o. We were taken on holidays, day trips etc., when my father was alive, unfortunately these ended when he died. However as soon as we were earning a wage my mother encouraged us to travel as much as possible.
Ireland in the 40's, 50's. 60's, 70's was a poor place, prosperity only came with admission to the EEC, however we did not live with 'a sense of entitlement' we worked for what we had. Robberies were few and far between - Murders were a complete rarity and was front page news for days.

Keeper, it is awful to have your home violated, I too have had that experience on more than one occasion. There has to be a deterrent for such wrong doers. Perhaps if the violated were allowed have a short time with the violater to show them the error of their ways this would save the country some money.

GT - The suggestion of TOSS that Social Protection monies be stopped if the individual is incarcerated could be very easily done. All that is required is a stay on the PPSN number obtaining a payment for the duration of the sentence imposed, whether or not it is served. An individual cannot be in receipt of two state payments, that is the law, it is an either/or e.g. a widow cannot receive a Contributory/Non-Contributory Pension and a Widow's Pension, he/she gets one or the other.

Sinéad

Sinéad, Clearly from your thoughts posted here, your parents were successful in their parenting skills. This innate human skill has not dissipated for parents at all.
I too was brought up to respect authority and I must say that my upbringing was subject to the best abilities of my parent's means. My Dad was proud to, following his return to Ireland, work as a Postman.
I am not trying to say that a convicted person should continue to enjoy their benefits whilst incarcerated, but I am saying that to put it into effect is problematic.
To properly effect a denial of benefits to a convicted person, it would mandate that the relevant court, following the delivery of the custodial sentence, provide the details of the judgment to the Dept of Social Protection, for every such convicted person.
Remember the onus to inform the Dept is on the recipient or the potential person who is subject to the custodial sentence.
It's not easy to rescind social welfare payments for those who are incarcerated.

gingertom wrote:
I am not trying to say that a convicted person should continue to enjoy their benefits whilst incarcerated, but I am saying that to put it into effect is problematic.
To properly effect a denial of benefits to a convicted person, it would mandate that the relevant court, following the delivery of the custodial sentence, provide the details of the judgment to the Dept of Social Protection, for every such convicted person.
Remember the onus to inform the Dept is on the recipient or the potential person who is subject to the custodial sentence.
It's not easy to rescind social welfare payments for those who are incarcerated.

If its too problematic .... I wonder is there any way that we could incentivize change ? I would hazard a guess that every politician and civil servant would quickly agree to find a way of rapid communication between the courts and the social Welfare if any short comings were taken out of their own wages or benefits.

Sinead makes a very valid point about citizens not being able to receive two state payments.... in 2016, €2.9 million (min €1.70 per day) was distributed to inmates of the State’s 14 detention centres, up €214,179 compared on the previous year and it does not take a genius to work out that the figures are rising. How hard would it be for a court official to notify all sentences immediately to the Welfare system and put a stop on all payments to those incarcerated?.... this is the age of the internet after all.

Red tape and roadblocks exist within our state systems, but there is no reason that they cannot be overcome if it in in the national interest.

As Toss says "Red tape and roadblocks exist within our state systems, but there is no reason that they cannot be overcome if it in in the national interest."...in my job I was deducting various amounts from staff wages. I'd look at the deaths in the papers and know that X was dead but....procedures had to be followed...until I received a blue bit of paper from x's department advising me of the death I couldn't stop stopping the amount...I'd phone the "blue paper" man but, until he saw fit to alert me I had to keep on the ridiculous practice....and I wasn't even working in a State job. I can imagine the amount of "blue paper" men and women in any State department the wheels of the State grind slowly.

I am not afraid of tomorrow, for I have seen yesterday and I love today.
William Allen White

The days of blue papers etc., is long gone. Everyone in the country has a PPSN. Joan Burton as Minister for SP was able to cut out a huge number of people drawing payments to which they were not entitled. It is even easier to stop SP payments now.
Once a death is notified to the authorities - the pension, bus pass etc., is stopped without any blue papers being passed. Those appearing in court should have to present their PPSN to ensure they are the correct person - there is your very simple answer. Computing these days can manage anything provided the correct programmer is employed. Look at us, an amateur group and all the info we can garner and share.
There is already a system in place for Government Departments to share information, nothing is more simple than the PPSN. Pretty Boy and his cohorts will be shouting about this next, after they have bankrupt the country with their various protests and alleged issues.

My points are simple, it is not the job for the courts to report such matters to the Social Welfare Authorities.
I am merely highlighting that the responsibility to find out if a social welfare recipient has been imprisoned is for Social Welfare officials to investigate such matters.
Therein lies one of the problems. PPS numbers are not on charge sheets.

Jemser wrote:I think Sinéad is simply pointing out that said PPS numbers should be on charge sheets.

Exactly ... and the courts should be made inform the Dept of SW immediately a person is incarcerated, unless they wish to aid and abet a criminal claim double benefit. No doubt there are many reasons or excuses for this not happening, but none of them are for the right reason as far as I'm concerned.

Jemser wrote:I think Sinéad is simply pointing out that said PPS numbers should be on charge sheets.

Exactly ... and the courts should be made inform the Dept of SW immediately a person is incarcerated, unless they wish to aid and abet a criminal claim double benefit. No doubt there are many reasons or excuses for this not happening, but none of them are for the right reason as far as I'm concerned.

Again it must be understood that what is being suggested here is outside the remit of the courts and to make any such reports would be outside powers. It is is not their job and never should be.The job of the courts is laid out in our constitution and their job is the application of common law decisions and this type of reporting is not provided for within it and never should be. The courts are performing in a proper lawful manner as they are now and to suggest otherwise is completly ridiculous and downright incorrect.
It is the social welfare authority to seek out any spurrious claims and will remains so. There is a separation of powers doctrine in effect in our Republic and any such change to the laws that govern social welfare payments, are for our Dáil to deal with, not the courts.

GT - I fully understand the separation of powers where Justice is concerned, however prisoners have to use/present the PPSN when incarcerated, what Department is responsible for Prisons?? There is no necessity for anyone to report anything, the system is good enough to pick up the Number and where it is registered. The entire system is interactive.

gingertom wrote:
[...] The job of the courts is laid out in our constitution[...] and this type of reporting is not provided for within it and never should be [...]
.

GT,
So how then are Courts entitled to rule on similar information sharing with non-court entities such as
- someones name be placed on a sex offenders register?
- penalty points being added to a licence?
- pension attachment orders?
& suchlike

gingertom wrote:
[...] The job of the courts is laid out in our constitution[...] and this type of reporting is not provided for within it and never should be [...]
.

GT,
So how then are Courts entitled to rule on similar information sharing with non-court entities such as
- someones name be placed on a sex offenders register?
- penalty points being added to a licence?
- pension attachment orders?
& suchlike

Sinead wrote:GT - I fully understand the separation of powers where Justice is concerned, however prisoners have to use/present the PPSN when incarcerated, what Department is responsible for Prisons?? There is no necessity for anyone to report anything, the system is good enough to pick up the Number and where it is registered. The entire system is interactive.

This might be a bit non PC to say but I've read in my feed on F/B that a poor couple is having their mortgage sold to a vulture fund I was shocked then when I read down it appears they hadn't paid mortgage for about 8 years. I was a complete dope to exist for years on fig rolls for my dinner (2 a day) trying to keep up my mortgage payments. Just saying!!

I am not afraid of tomorrow, for I have seen yesterday and I love today.
William Allen White