Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

I am anxious you should have an opportunity 1told who Mr Beer is but anyway---- 2A.
[Mr Irving]
His credentials, precisely. 3Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
But you have also, I think you have to have the 4opportunity to develop this if you want to, said, well 5although I understand the criticism that is made of 6Leuchter and his assumption, his key assumption, 7nevertheless matters have moved on and Leuchter's report 8has been, as you put it, replicated. 9A.
[Mr Irving]
It has been overtaken by other better reports. 10Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
If that be right and if that is your case, then I think 11you ought to have the opportunity to develop that at some 12stage. I do not want to take Mr Rampton out of order. 13A.
[Mr Irving]
Perhaps Mr Rampton wanted to avoid asking precisely those 14questions that your Lordship has now asked. 15MR RAMPTON: Oh, Mr Irving, I do not need to avoid asking you 16anything at all. This is not the time for you to give -- 17if you chose not to give me the documents and give 18evidence-in-chief about it, you will have to do it later. 19A.
[Mr Irving]
Mr Rampton, all these documents have been in discovery, 20and I can summarize very briefly. I accepted the Leuchter 21was flawed on its figures and on its methodology. It was 22a pioneering report. It was the first kind of examination 23that had ever been conducted to our knowledge of the 24Auschwitz site. It was replicated afterwards. It has 25been superseded. Everybody on the incorrigible 26revisionist wing says Leuchter is a good old chap, but he

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1got bits wrong and, in the meantime, there are other much 2more solid reports that have replaced it. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Just pause there for a moment. Just so that 4I have it clear because I have in the end to make sense of 5all this, what do you say is the report or reports which 6replicate Leuchter's conclusion? 7A.
[Mr Irving]
There have been a series of reports and I can summarize 8them in this way. In 1945, it subsequently turned out, 9the Poles had themselves conducted a test or tests on 10artifacts found at Auschwitz, including a metal grating, a 11metal grating and human hair. After the Leuchter came 12into public -- came to public attention, the Auschwitz 13authorities themselves carried out a secret replica of the 14tests, came up with unsatisfactory results and kept their 15report secret. 16 Subsequently Gemar Rudolf went to Auschwitz and 17wrote a report which is known as the Rudolf Report. Now, 18Rudolf is a qualified chemist and he conducted the tests 19on a much more scientific basis. He came up with figures 20which broadly confirmed the conclusions that Leuchter had 21originally reached. 22 After criticisms were expressed of the Leuchter 23report, which are under one of these tabs which your 24Lordship has read some of, we took the appropriate 25action. We discussed among ourselves how far these 26criticisms had to be taken seriously and what should be

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1done about them. We did not do that in public. I do not 2think anybody -- a scientific institute would have done it 3in public. We certainly did not ignore the criticism. We 4did not just go charging ahead like a blind bull. 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. So it is Polish tests in 1945, 6Auschwitz authorities sometime in the late 80s/early 90s. 7A.
[Mr Irving]
1989 or '90, yes. 8Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
And Mr Rudolf? 9A.
[Mr Irving]
And then Mr Rudolf since then, yes. I think there have 10been other tests conducted also since then. The bone has 11been repeatedly chewed over, and if the Leuchter achieved 12anything at all, it was an open discussion of this very 13awkward matter. 14MR RAMPTON: Then, I am afraid, this is inevitable, Mr Irving, 15in the light of those answers or that evidence you have 16now given. Turn to what you said in Tampa, Florida. 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton, I am so sorry to be 18interrupting. I have to understand the validity or the 19invalidity of the criticisms of Leuchter. What he said 20about it seems to me -- we have seen plenty of quotes 21where he says, "Leuchter has convinced me that they never 22existed, these camps". 23MR RAMPTON: No, but, my Lord, I think what he has just told 24your Lordship is this, is it not: "I accept", although he 25has never said it publicly, "that Leuchter was flawed, his 26methodology was poor, his logic was wrong", or whatever it

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1is, "but, of course, he has since been validated by other 2work", including two documents which I am shortly going to 3show him. It is surprising, in the light of that answer, 4that in 1985 he still adheres to Leuchter as though it 5were gospel. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: We can certainly look and see what he says in 7Tampa. 8MR RAMPTON: That is tab 20 of the new file 3, page 19. 9A.
[Mr Irving]
Of course, if I may leap ahead and say that if, at the end 10of the day, it turns out that you were right all along 11about these buildings, then all of this discussion is 12superfluous. 13MR RAMPTON: No, Mr Irving, it is not because we are not 14concerned in this court with proving or disproving what 15happened in Auschwitz. We are concerned with your state 16of mind and your standards of, what shall I say, truth 17when it comes to reporting history? 18A.
[Mr Irving]
You are quite right, but, of course, my state of mind does 19not rely solely on scientific reports or chemical 20analyses. 21Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I do not dignify Fred Leuchter's report as a scientific 22report, I am afraid, Mr Irving? 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: Did you say tab 19? 24MR RAMPTON: 20, my Lord, page 19. Second paragraph on the 25page after the break. "Fred Leuchter who wrote the report 26here which is one of the most telling reports on the

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1Auschwitz case"? 2A.
[Mr Irving]
On what page are we, I am sorry? 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Sorry, page 19, bottom of the page. "Fred Leuchter who 4wrote the report here which is one of the most telling 5reports on the Auschwitz case, if you may remember, Fred 6Leuchter was the American consultant on the gas chamber 7design. He designs and gives advice on the building of 8gas chambers by American ... He was nominated by every 9governor of every American penitentiary as a defence 10consultant for a law case in Canada which hinged on the 11Nazi gas chambers. You have seen it in the OJ Simpson 12case. They call in experts; experts on DNA, experts on 13footprints or whatever, and that expert then gives expert 14evidence, and the expert in this Canadian case was Fred 15Leuchter". 16 Pausing there, Mr Irving, it is not true, is 17it? He was not allowed to give expert evidence about 18Auschwitz, was he? 19A.
[Mr Irving]
He was called as an expert evidence -- he was allowed to 20give expertise. If you read the transcript of the trial, 21you will see what areas he was allowed to give expert 22evidence on. 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"And the Canadian lawyer sent Fred Leuchter actually to 24Auschwitz in Poland and said, 'You are a gas chamber 25expert. Tell us what you think about the buildings in 26Auschwitz. Would they have worked?' Well, the short