They have gone wrong by trusting in Jensons feedback , he has led them down a blind alley and there is hardly any way back, he demands a precise feel to his car to perform, the tyres and lack of rear blown diffuser wont ever let a car behave the way Jenson wants it to, when Jenson couldn't get his car to perform every ( and I mean EVERY ) engineer in McLaren was ripping apart Lewis's data to make Jensons car perform and get a car that suited Jensons style, these cars will never suit Jensons style, Jenson only came good in the years of double diffuser and blown diffuser allowing him the precise feel he needs to perform, following Jensons needs will wreck this car and any hopes of a championship, be warned McLaren.

They have gone wrong by trusting in Jensons feedback , he has led them down a blind alley and there is hardly any way back, he demands a precise feel to his car to perform, the tyres and lack of rear blown diffuser wont ever let a car behave the way Jenson wants it to, when Jenson couldn't get his car to perform every ( and I mean EVERY ) engineer in McLaren was ripping apart Lewis's data to make Jensons car perform and get a car that suited Jensons style, these cars will never suit Jensons style, Jenson only came good in the years of double diffuser and blown diffuser allowing him the precise feel he needs to perform, following Jensons needs will wreck this car and any hopes of a championship, be warned McLaren.

If true, than it's already too late. How can they follow a driver wich is the princess on the pea of all drivers?Reminds me at BMW 2008, who helped Heidfeld to solve his tyre problems, and fell behind from having a shot at the WDC with Kubica Look where BMW & Mario Theissen are now.

Its fairly evident to see that McLarens finance and aerodynamic department have been sacrificed for there Animated series and over exaggerated London Prix..As a JB&LH fan, it was hard to watch yesterday. Especially when Lewis Team Engineer was telling him at the beginning your doing as well if not better than the guys in front..

If they haven't sorted it out by Germany - they might as well start developing the car for next year.

They completely lost the plot IMOIt was only Lewis talent who could drag the car some places up for sometime, but now this is not enough anymore.

Its fairly evident to see that McLarens finance and aerodynamic department have been sacrificed for there Animated series and over exaggerated London Prix..As a JB&LH fan, it was hard to watch yesterday. Especially when Lewis Team Engineer was telling him at the beginning your doing as well if not better than the guys in front..

If they haven't sorted it out by Germany - they might as well start developing the car for next year.

Yeah, what on earth was that all about? How can he be doing so great and not advance a single position in the whole race? Was the real transmission intercepted by Red Bull?

Red Bull Engineer "Lewis, you're doing great! Brake and let Vettel pass you!...Lewis, Vettel's 20 seconds ahead of you - you have him in your sights! You just need to pit - we're on a 3 stop strategy with a 10 second layover on the 2nd stop! Hold on, Lewis, Adrian just told me that you should go on the wets and you need to conserve fuel over the next 50 laps! The engineers are checking to see if we added fuel after qualifying yesterday...Lewis, you're doing great!"

They have gone wrong by trusting in Jensons feedback , he has led them down a blind alley and there is hardly any way back, he demands a precise feel to his car to perform, the tyres and lack of rear blown diffuser wont ever let a car behave the way Jenson wants it to, when Jenson couldn't get his car to perform every ( and I mean EVERY ) engineer in McLaren was ripping apart Lewis's data to make Jensons car perform and get a car that suited Jensons style, these cars will never suit Jensons style, Jenson only came good in the years of double diffuser and blown diffuser allowing him the precise feel he needs to perform, following Jensons needs will wreck this car and any hopes of a championship, be warned McLaren.

Except Lewis went down a different path. So how come his Path the one Jenson is now using is exactly 8 seconds in front of Jenson in the same machinery despite being 8 places apart on the grid?

As for EVERY engineer in McLaren was ripping apart Lewis's data. The engineers always dissect the data after a GP anyway. A big deal has been made because Lewis said the media he seen them do it

So it was Button's talent that was dragging the car up at Australia and last year???

The biggest betrayals to McLaren has been done during the Ron Dennis era: First spygate then letting the best driver in F1 go and pretty much handing him to Ferrari in golden plate two years later... Right now they do not have a driver who is consistently fast race after race with minimum number of errors over a whole season. With the speed and consistency of Alonso and Vettel who are joined by Webber this year, they are in big trouble...

They have gone wrong by trusting in Jensons feedback , he has led them down a blind alley and there is hardly any way back, he demands a precise feel to his car to perform, the tyres and lack of rear blown diffuser wont ever let a car behave the way Jenson wants it to, when Jenson couldn't get his car to perform every ( and I mean EVERY ) engineer in McLaren was ripping apart Lewis's data to make Jensons car perform and get a car that suited Jensons style, these cars will never suit Jensons style, Jenson only came good in the years of double diffuser and blown diffuser allowing him the precise feel he needs to perform, following Jensons needs will wreck this car and any hopes of a championship, be warned McLaren.

Except Lewis went down a different path. So how come his Path the one Jenson is now using is exactly 8 seconds in front of Jenson in the same machinery despite being 8 places apart on the grid?

As for EVERY engineer in McLaren was ripping apart Lewis's data. The engineers always dissect the data after a GP anyway. A big deal has been made because Lewis said the media he seen them do it

The development went in direction to make Button faster, maybe it's the wrong direction for Lewis6 places+Perez DNFMaldonado fell behindHulkenberg run wide

Lewis had other strategy, Michaels agreed it was a mistake, the short stint on the options

The development went in direction to make Button faster, maybe it's the wrong direction for Lewis6 places+Perez DNFMaldonado fell behindHulkenberg run wide

Lewis had other strategy, Michaels agreed it was a mistake, the short stint on the options

No the development was to make the CAR faster. You keep forgetting for some reason that Button is now follow Lewis' lead on the car these days.

which is absolutely incorrect, Jenson wanted the car developed a certain way after bahrain and the team went with that, as for the guy earlier who pointed out data is shared, we are not talking about aharing here we are talking about Lewis's engineers( cheif engineer and all ) in and poring over every piece of Lewis's data for Jenson, thats how lewis put it in a interview and it is obvious that he was not happy

"We've got a decent, bigger, more visible upgrade package for Germany and we've got to deliver that and make that stick. It's the same old game, we have got to develop the car, and we have got to make sure we use the tyres better."

The upgrades scheduled for Germany are understood to include a new bodywork concept at the rear of the car, as well as further refinement to the adjustable front brake ducts.

which is absolutely incorrect, Jenson wanted the car developed a certain way after bahrain and the team went with that, as for the guy earlier who pointed out data is shared, we are not talking about aharing here we are talking about Lewis's engineers( cheif engineer and all ) in and poring over every piece of Lewis's data for Jenson, thats how lewis put it in a interview and it is obvious that he was not happy

No if you listen they have been saying Jenson went a different direction with "Set ups" Not development.

The only difference after Bahrain was Jenson got thea new rear end sooner because he was allowed to change gearbox. Which was developed before Bahrain. Lewis had to wait until his gearbox cycle is/was over.

And again they always go through all the Data. Why else would the collect it all?

they were comparing the set up and effect difference on the tyres. Doesn't that make sense for BOTH drivers if they understand what changes do what? If they know what caused the extra graining on Jensons car in canada and they narrow it down to specific things then won't they know not to put those settings on Lewis car?

The development went in direction to make Button faster, maybe it's the wrong direction for Lewis6 places+Perez DNFMaldonado fell behindHulkenberg run wide

Lewis had other strategy, Michaels agreed it was a mistake, the short stint on the options

No the development was to make the CAR faster. You keep forgetting for some reason that Button is now follow Lewis' lead on the car these days.

They follow McLaren, wich made a compromise for both cars, to help JB

With the standard set-ups for Button and Hamilton apparently having deviated away from each other, the support between the two garages is very limited - so McLaren now appears to be looking to steer a more collaborative direction.

By pooling resources between the two garages in Valencia this weekend, they hope to get a more converged car set-up that performs well for both drivers.

This could provide significant benefit — as it effectively doubles the amount of time the team has to work towards set-up on the Friday — but it needs both sides of the garage to be happy to take a steer from each other's findings.

It's generally recognised that McLaren has the best car on the grid — but with only one driver on form, they risk throwing away the potential of a strong constructors' crown.

If Hamilton and his engineers can be convinced to help Button recover for the good of the team, then McLaren could rise to the top as the season heads towards a crucial point.

Valencia they run this base set up for both cars. Lewis was not happy with it. He said they got it wrong . He used all FPs to change to a set up to his likings. Therefore he had no time for a long run to evaluate tyre usage. And at the GP he run into problems with high degeneration in the end.

They have gone wrong by trusting in Jensons feedback , he has led them down a blind alley and there is hardly any way back, he demands a precise feel to his car to perform, the tyres and lack of rear blown diffuser wont ever let a car behave the way Jenson wants it to, when Jenson couldn't get his car to perform every ( and I mean EVERY ) engineer in McLaren was ripping apart Lewis's data to make Jensons car perform and get a car that suited Jensons style, these cars will never suit Jensons style, Jenson only came good in the years of double diffuser and blown diffuser allowing him the precise feel he needs to perform, following Jensons needs will wreck this car and any hopes of a championship, be warned McLaren.

That's the difference between Hamilton and Button. Hamilton can drive anything, with oversteer / understeer, well balanced and be fast IF the car is actually fast. All this work to help Jenson is really making them suffer, but it's not the only thing it's a number of contributing factors in their slippery slope.

With the standard set-ups for Button and Hamilton apparently having deviated away from each other, the support between the two garages is very limited - so McLaren now appears to be looking to steer a more collaborative direction.

By pooling resources between the two garages in Valencia this weekend, they hope to get a more converged car set-up that performs well for both drivers.

This could provide significant benefit — as it effectively doubles the amount of time the team has to work towards set-up on the Friday — but it needs both sides of the garage to be happy to take a steer from each other's findings.

It's generally recognised that McLaren has the best car on the grid — but with only one driver on form, they risk throwing away the potential of a strong constructors' crown.

If Hamilton and his engineers can be convinced to help Button recover for the good of the team, then McLaren could rise to the top as the season heads towards a crucial point.

Valencia they run this base set up for both cars. Lewis was not happy with it. He said they got it wrong . He used all FPs to change to a set up to his likings. Therefore he had no time for a long run to evaluate tyre usage. And at the GP he run into problems with high degeneration in the end.

But yet all from McLaren was that Button was using Lewis Setup. Thats the bit you conveniently ignore. that button went over to Lwis Data. Not middle ground but Lewis Set up.

Jenson Button will use Lewis Hamilton's set-up to begin his European Grand Prix weekend in order to start from a solid baseline.

Having struggled badly in recent races, Button is more hopeful ahead of Valencia after McLaren revealed it had found some "very subtle" differences between its two cars. Button admitted that he would start the weekend with Hamilton's set-up after his team-mate won in Canada, and then work to tune it to his own driving style.

They have gone wrong by trusting in Jensons feedback , he has led them down a blind alley and there is hardly any way back, he demands a precise feel to his car to perform, the tyres and lack of rear blown diffuser wont ever let a car behave the way Jenson wants it to, when Jenson couldn't get his car to perform every ( and I mean EVERY ) engineer in McLaren was ripping apart Lewis's data to make Jensons car perform and get a car that suited Jensons style, these cars will never suit Jensons style, Jenson only came good in the years of double diffuser and blown diffuser allowing him the precise feel he needs to perform, following Jensons needs will wreck this car and any hopes of a championship, be warned McLaren.

You must have had started following F1 somewhat recently... what about 2004???

__________________________________________________

Anyways, it is quite funny to see such hate towards Jenson in McLaren camp... is it because he made Lewis look like a chump over last two seasons, in what is but Lewis's backyard??? That was too easy __________________________________________________

So why was this much less of a problem for him in the earlier races? Jenson and McLaren would probably love to know the answer to that too. But there is at least one key rival convinced it has something to do with an FIA clarification made during the Chinese Grand Prix weekend regarding the McLaren's splitter aft of the nose.

It's believed McLaren was taking advantage of the production tolerance allowed for the floor - which has to be flat but which is allowed a few millimetres tolerance - by considering the splitter as part of the floor. The clarification put a stop to this. McLaren insists this had no serious impact upon the car's aerodynamic performance, but others are less sure. Could it have allowed just enough rake on the car for even Jenson to get the front tyres up to temperature? It's only a theory. But at the time of writing, theories were all even Button and the team had.

[quote="Johnston"][/quote]Some people just can't be reasoned with mate... just leave it at that. Their passion (well, read what you will) clouds their logic. So it wouldn't matter if you have whatever proof you do, as it isn't ever going to be good enough.

So why was this much less of a problem for him in the earlier races? Jenson and McLaren would probably love to know the answer to that too. But there is at least one key rival convinced it has something to do with an FIA clarification made during the Chinese Grand Prix weekend regarding the McLaren's splitter aft of the nose.

It's believed McLaren was taking advantage of the production tolerance allowed for the floor - which has to be flat but which is allowed a few millimetres tolerance - by considering the splitter as part of the floor. The clarification put a stop to this. McLaren insists this had no serious impact upon the car's aerodynamic performance, but others are less sure. Could it have allowed just enough rake on the car for even Jenson to get the front tyres up to temperature? It's only a theory. But at the time of writing, theories were all even Button and the team had.

Had to read through a sea of drivel (last 2 pages of this thread) to find something actually worthwhile... thanks for the same mate!

So why was this much less of a problem for him in the earlier races? Jenson and McLaren would probably love to know the answer to that too. But there is at least one key rival convinced it has something to do with an FIA clarification made during the Chinese Grand Prix weekend regarding the McLaren's splitter aft of the nose.

It's believed McLaren was taking advantage of the production tolerance allowed for the floor - which has to be flat but which is allowed a few millimetres tolerance - by considering the splitter as part of the floor. The clarification put a stop to this. McLaren insists this had no serious impact upon the car's aerodynamic performance, but others are less sure. Could it have allowed just enough rake on the car for even Jenson to get the front tyres up to temperature? It's only a theory. But at the time of writing, theories were all even Button and the team had.

It's just a theory like the others.I can be right or wrong, like the others No prove.

With the standard set-ups for Button and Hamilton apparently having deviated away from each other, the support between the two garages is very limited - so McLaren now appears to be looking to steer a more collaborative direction.

By pooling resources between the two garages in Valencia this weekend, they hope to get a more converged car set-up that performs well for both drivers.

This could provide significant benefit — as it effectively doubles the amount of time the team has to work towards set-up on the Friday — but it needs both sides of the garage to be happy to take a steer from each other's findings.

It's generally recognised that McLaren has the best car on the grid — but with only one driver on form, they risk throwing away the potential of a strong constructors' crown.

If Hamilton and his engineers can be convinced to help Button recover for the good of the team, then McLaren could rise to the top as the season heads towards a crucial point.

Valencia they run this base set up for both cars. Lewis was not happy with it. He said they got it wrong . He used all FPs to change to a set up to his likings. Therefore he had no time for a long run to evaluate tyre usage. And at the GP he run into problems with high degeneration in the end.

But yet all from McLaren was that Button was using Lewis Setup. Thats the bit you conveniently ignore. that button went over to Lwis Data. Not middle ground but Lewis Set up.

Jenson Button will use Lewis Hamilton's set-up to begin his European Grand Prix weekend in order to start from a solid baseline.

Having struggled badly in recent races, Button is more hopeful ahead of Valencia after McLaren revealed it had found some "very subtle" differences between its two cars. Button admitted that he would start the weekend with Hamilton's set-up after his team-mate won in Canada, and then work to tune it to his own driving style.

So why had Lewis to use a set up not to his liking at Valencia to start with?

The used Lewis data, do design a set up wich would fit Both driversSo both had a set up to start with wich was made from the engineers at the simulator at MCLLewis needed all FPs to sort it out to his likingsIt was not HIS set up, it was a set up made with the use of his data

With the standard set-ups for Button and Hamilton apparently having deviated away from each other, the support between the two garages is very limited - so McLaren now appears to be looking to steer a more collaborative direction.

By pooling resources between the two garages in Valencia this weekend, they hope to get a more converged car set-up that performs well for both drivers.

This could provide significant benefit — as it effectively doubles the amount of time the team has to work towards set-up on the Friday — but it needs both sides of the garage to be happy to take a steer from each other's findings.

It's generally recognised that McLaren has the best car on the grid — but with only one driver on form, they risk throwing away the potential of a strong constructors' crown.

If Hamilton and his engineers can be convinced to help Button recover for the good of the team, then McLaren could rise to the top as the season heads towards a crucial point.

Valencia they run this base set up for both cars. Lewis was not happy with it. He said they got it wrong . He used all FPs to change to a set up to his likings. Therefore he had no time for a long run to evaluate tyre usage. And at the GP he run into problems with high degeneration in the end.

But yet all from McLaren was that Button was using Lewis Setup. Thats the bit you conveniently ignore. that button went over to Lwis Data. Not middle ground but Lewis Set up.

Jenson Button will use Lewis Hamilton's set-up to begin his European Grand Prix weekend in order to start from a solid baseline.

Having struggled badly in recent races, Button is more hopeful ahead of Valencia after McLaren revealed it had found some "very subtle" differences between its two cars. Button admitted that he would start the weekend with Hamilton's set-up after his team-mate won in Canada, and then work to tune it to his own driving style.

So why had Lewis to use a set up not to his liking at Valencia to start with?

The used Lewis data, do design a set up wich would fit Both driversSo both had a set up to start with wich was made from the engineers at the simulator at MCLLewis needed all FPs to sort it out to his likingsIt was not HIS set up, it was a set up made with the use of his data

FFS read it.

Jenson started with Lewis Set up not some compromised half way house. Jenson started with Lewis Base set up. Just like Lewis. NOT A COMBINED SET UP.

It's hard to take Johnson seriously when he's got a clear biased towards Jenson and against Lewis. He's denying facts about how a team runs.

In most teams they work hard to make sure both drivers are as fast and happy as possible. If one driver is struggling for pace they will put that extra effort in to help that driver to solve his problems and get faster again (In this case Jenson) And this does naturally sometimes have an effect on the development of the other driver and often the development of the car. It's just a natural happening within teams.

I am a big supporter of all drivers but I always support Jenson and Lewis to the most and don't have anything against either of them, I want them both to do well and help McLaren win titles, but when Jenson is struggling like he is it does have a negative effect on the team.

It's hard to take Johnson seriously when he's got a clear biased towards Jenson and against Lewis. He's denying facts about how a team runs.

In most teams they work hard to make sure both drivers are as fast and happy as possible. If one driver is struggling for pace they will put that extra effort in to help that driver to solve his problems and get faster again (In this case Jenson) And this does naturally sometimes have an effect on the development of the other driver and often the development of the car. It's just a natural happening within teams.

I am a big supporter of all drivers but I always support Jenson and Lewis to the most and don't have anything against either of them, I want them both to do well and help McLaren win titles, but when Jenson is struggling like he is it does have a negative effect on the team.

Thing is, i remember me and Johnston having a lot of conversation (here in the forum), where he was defending Lewis over what not... I wouldn't accuse him of being partisan (at least not towards Jenson , just kidding ).

Also, there's a flaw in your line of thinking. Technical staff knows what works, and what may improve the performance... If they have the slightest inkling about performance going downhill, they'd change course. Johnston is right, in the fact that there was an interview with Jenson stating he would be running Lewis's setup, after having gone the wrong way with their own setup, which would help in having a good baseline to start with. Nowhere did i see any discussion about development route, which is a whole lot different.

I have been involved in a couple of teams (Such as creation autosportif) and know how things work within a team. The problem Jenson is having means the team has to put extra effort in to help him which means if the car is not up to speed it's harder to focus solely on actually getting the car as fast as possible. They have been doing that yes (at least trying) but have more been focusing on doing to that help Jenson and solve his problems he is having with the car/tyres.

Ok lets be blunt, If macca want to concentrate on Jenson who has been woeful lately then they will compete with Merc / Lotus at best, concentrate on Hamilton and they will compete with Red Bull / Ferrari, jenson at the moment couldn't drive his way out of a car park and is only becoming mediocre using info from Lewis, he only came good with double diffuser and blown diffusers , without that he was chomping his gums way down in the nether regions of the grid, plus why they should help Lewis, try imagining having to explain to your board you lost your best performing driver with a amazing fan base and income producer because you wanted your poorer driver to start performing and now you have taken on Di Resta to replace him because of your ineptitude, you can kiss your position goodbye.

Ok lets be blunt, If macca want to concentrate on Jenson who has been woeful lately then they will compete with Merc / Lotus at best, concentrate on Hamilton and they will compete with Red Bull / Ferrari, jenson at the moment couldn't drive his way out of a car park and is only becoming mediocre using info from Lewis, he only came good with double diffuser and blown diffusers , without that he was chomping his gums way down in the nether regions of the grid, plus why they should help Lewis, try imagining having to explain to your board you lost your best performing driver with a amazing fan base and income producer because you wanted your poorer driver to start performing and now you have taken on Di Resta to replace him because of your ineptitude, you can kiss your position goodbye.

Sorry but who was the first non Ferrari in the WDC in I think '04?

But besides that. McLaren existed before Lewis they will exist after. McLarens board are shareholders because the invested to make money. If you have a driver demanding high pay that eats into the profit and their returns.

These guys aren't daft they will know pretty well where the financial line between profit and loss exists with Hammy and Button.

For them life will go on no matter who is driving the car. If they though Mika was a profit maker they would no doubt try and tempt him out of retirement.

Ok lets be blunt, If macca want to concentrate on Jenson who has been woeful lately then they will compete with Merc / Lotus at best, concentrate on Hamilton and they will compete with Red Bull / Ferrari, jenson at the moment couldn't drive his way out of a car park and is only becoming mediocre using info from Lewis, he only came good with double diffuser and blown diffusers , without that he was chomping his gums way down in the nether regions of the grid, plus why they should help Lewis, try imagining having to explain to your board you lost your best performing driver with a amazing fan base and income producer because you wanted your poorer driver to start performing and now you have taken on Di Resta to replace him because of your ineptitude, you can kiss your position goodbye.

Sorry but who was the first non Ferrari in the WDC in I think '04?

Bar Honda,And Jenson in the years Honda threw the kitchen sink at the car and strangely enough it had a revolutionary carbon cased gearbox, gearset and a low weight fuel cell, which reduced weight at the rear of the car and made the rear end more precise and planted, sound familiar to anything recently used?

Its so strange that Button posts one of the fastest laps in recent races and yet he says he couldn't find pace to defeat others ? Last race I remember how Lewis tried to claim position after being overtaken by Alonso.

He won't commit to the team so him winning the WDC wouldn't actually get them anything other than being able to put a laurel on their walls in the garages.

They could give him everything on the track. Just for him to sign for another team for more money and his trophies.

It's nearly mid way through the season. It's getting close to the stage when teams would start withholding info on this years car AND the development of next years.

How would that help his WDC chances? AND it would be of his own doing.

How do you know he won't commit to McLaren?

Why shoud they not concentrate on the driver who brings the double points per race than the other driver?Usually the driver who wins the WDC brings the most points for the team, It's WCC points also.Wasn't it better to have one driver who can bring the big points than to have 2 who run for the minor points?

He won't commit to the team so him winning the WDC wouldn't actually get them anything other than being able to put a laurel on their walls in the garages.

They could give him everything on the track. Just for him to sign for another team for more money and his trophies.

It's nearly mid way through the season. It's getting close to the stage when teams would start withholding info on this years car AND the development of next years.

How would that help his WDC chances? AND it would be of his own doing.

How do you know he won't commit to McLaren?

Why shoud they not concentrate on the driver who brings the double points per race than the other driver?Usually the driver who wins the WDC brings the most points for the team, It's WCC points also.Wasn't it better to have one driver who can bring the big points than to have 2 who run for the minor points?

How do you know he will?

At this point McLaren don't know, otherwise it would have been done. What's the point in putting your eggs in a basket, that may not be hanging off your arm next year?

He won't commit to the team so him winning the WDC wouldn't actually get them anything other than being able to put a laurel on their walls in the garages.

They could give him everything on the track. Just for him to sign for another team for more money and his trophies.

It's nearly mid way through the season. It's getting close to the stage when teams would start withholding info on this years car AND the development of next years.

How would that help his WDC chances? AND it would be of his own doing.

How do you know he won't commit to McLaren?

Why shoud they not concentrate on the driver who brings the double points per race than the other driver?Usually the driver who wins the WDC brings the most points for the team, It's WCC points also.Wasn't it better to have one driver who can bring the big points than to have 2 who run for the minor points?

How do you know he will?

At this point McLaren don't know, otherwise it would have been done. What's the point in putting your eggs in a basket, that may not be hanging off your arm next year?

The point is that even if he is gone next year, he may be able to secure you a WDC this year and a higher chunk of points for WCC unless you believe a team stops playing for WDC & WCC if one of the drivers is leaving. Look at Alonso in 2006, Renault had no problem supporting him unilaterally till the end even though he was leaving.