fuk that ancient.. this isnt apropiate behaviour for a head admin... and fuk freedom of speech.. just because you may say anything you want, doesn't mean you should say anything you want.. offcourse this is total rubbish for you since you're an auti and auti's always seem to dissagree with the mayority of people that are right.

Majority almost everywhere are wrong, in many things, because there are a lot of stupid people in the world. Stultorum numerus infinitus est. And I think it is silly to say *Oh religion is his/her own business*. Being a dumbfuck among the sociaty is everyone's business.

RedSphinx wrote:Majority almost everywhere are wrong, in many things, because there are a lot of stupid people in the world. Stultorum numerus infinitus est. And I think it is silly to say *Oh religion is his/her own business*. Being a dumbfuck among the sociaty is everyone's business.

I like it how Ancients troll post turned into a discussion of religion.Also, no, religion isn't bad - and that's coming from a man who does not believe in religion - blind hatred and fanaticism is to blame.

The masses can't take all the blame either. The people are power. It's those who control them that are far more responsible, imho.

I don't really hate religion, it did nothing bad to me. But a man cannot have a sharp and critic mindset if one believe in religion, especially nowdays. Back then you could not stand against it, now you can. We have science, everything is against the laws of religion and YET there are still many people who believe in it even when the atmosphere rarely force to believe one (Except for muslims). So yeah, I cannot ignore the fact that a man is really religious when I create the impression from my point of view about the person.

Religion may have some benefits - power of the mind, you get what you want by believing you can get it. But people base it on LIES, they achieve it, but they are stupid because they believe in obvious lies. Religion is good for only one thing - ability to gain strength and achieve what you seek, rest is total bullshit and you know it.

I respect it what a man know what his mind can do and he go for it directly, not crapping around with jesus and bible and only then achieve, yet he thank god, but not his efforts.

Masses never show true quality, for example, pop music. Why some bullshit Viva videos have tons of million views while some slightly more complex music have few thousands. Just listen to the lyrics of these songs, terrible. Masses also fall for a nice smile and big lies when it comes to politics. Hey, some people vote for one just because of politician's strong belief.

RedSphinx wrote:But a man cannot have a sharp and critic mindset if one believe in religion, especially nowdays.

Ok, I call that bullshit simply because there is more than one religion. What? A practicing Buddhist is stupid now? Try to be a bit open minded.

RedSphinx wrote:Religion may have some benefits - power of the mind, you get what you want by believing you can get it. But people base it on LIES, they achieve it, but they are stupid because they believe in obvious lies. Religion is good for only one thing - ability to gain strength and achieve what you seek, rest is total bullshit and you know it.

I respect it what a man know what his mind can do and he go for it directly, not crapping around with jesus and bible and only then achieve, yet he thank god, but not his efforts.

I have to agree with you here. I don't like it when people don't give themselves any credit too.

However, what do you say to the people who thank their parents for their achievements as well? I take thanking god or your parents, wife, children the same way. As long as they register that their work is the fruit of their efforts then I'm fine with them thanking their milkman if they want to.

Ok, I call that bullshit simply because there is more than one religion. What? A practicing Buddhist is stupid now? Try to be a bit open minded.

What is *stupid* then? It is not something below IQ of 40, my maths teacher is an oldman, he is very intelligent and I love discussing with him, yet he believe in religion. In my opinion, he is stupid only at that point. After all, I'm not sure if he fully believe in it, I think he follow another *interpretation* even though he go to church often.

Being a Buddhist makes you smart? Perhaps they have a big pool of knowledge gathered within centuries, but some things are still based on lies. Hey, religion is religion, there is no religion closer to the truth than another religion, because it is a religion.

I may be trying to bash your idea. But yeah, buddhism seem to be the most decent among the rest, but it is a religion based on stories like all religions. It may be based on knowledge more than other religions, but it is still just a religion.

However, what do you say to the people who thank their parents for their achievements as well?

Their parents actually helped them if one thank them. God didn't help them yet they thank god. They don't have this in their mind: *Oh thank you religion for creating this illusion which fool me and I am strong because of this false belief*, they think: *Thank you god for helping me*. Parents do help, god - no.

RedSphinx wrote:Being a Buddhist makes you smart? Perhaps they have a big pool of knowledge gathered within centuries, but some things are still based on lies. Hey, religion is religion, there is no religion closer to the truth than another religion, because it is a religion.

Honestly I've had the same kind of argument every time I make a post. Things that can have multiple 'states' (words fail me at the moment) cannot be logically reversed and still hold true.

For example, you could say that people are: stupid, not stupid, smart, not smart.What I said was that believing in religion does not automatically make you stupid. This statement cannot be logically reversed into "being religious makes you smart". That's the same as stating that the water is freezing because I told you it is not boiling. There are various shades of gray here.

RedSphinx wrote:They don't have this in their mind: *Oh thank you religion for creating this illusion which fool me and I am strong because of this false belief*, they think: *Thank you god for helping me*. Parents do help, god - no.

Did your parents educate you? Teach you morals maybe? Shape the way you think? Act? OH! And did religion do the same?

Small things like that do affect people in the long run. For example I would have never gotten into engineering if we weren't so poor when I was a kid. If something didn't work or broke I had to fix it because I sure as hell wasn't going to get a replacement watch or cd-player anytime soon.

For example, you could say that people are: stupid, not stupid, smart, not smart.What I said was that believing in religion does not automatically make you stupid. This statement cannot be logically reversed into "being religious makes you smart". That's the same as stating that the water is freezing because I told you it is not boiling. There are various shades of gray here.

Yeah, we try to fuck up each other by pointing out the flaws of sentences in this discussion, being not precise enough lead to this reversion for both, you and me. That's how it goes with all discussions.

But if one believe an obvious lie, which is the base of religion, he is not stupid nor smart? How you call it then? Normal? Huh. How you evaluate this from your point of view? You don't reveal your opinion on this so far.

If a priest is considered educated and intelligent, there are many of those, but one speak: *I do what god tell me to do, all I know is god's ways and I follow it.* Umm, that's total rubbish to say. Intelligent and educated person believe in talking snakes, believe in getting all world's life into one boat or expanding the humanity from two individuals when their children have sex and give birth to some abominations due to bloodmix. A man with a head on his shoulders should believe it NOWDAYS?

Did your parents educate you? Teach you morals maybe? Shape the way you think? Act? OH! And did religion do the same?

If children thank their parents it doesn't automatically mean they thank for things they didn't give to them. Parents support financiely, parents support you psychologically and yes they can set morals by not FORCE TEACHING but by seting the example of their own. Of course you didn't mean it and I gonna try to fuck you up with words once again, but you're saying parents DO NOT INFLUENCE their children at all? Parents play extremely important role in children life, yet they can't change the way you was born, can't change your inborn interests. I am not saying parents should FORCE TEACH THEIR WAYS, of course not, but small child look up for their parents, he learn by observing them. If parents gonna talk vulgary all the time, one might think it is normal and one may too.

I can go and thank my parents right now for seting the example and not teaching me their own ways. They didn't educate me, they didn't try to put morals by force. They did what they thought it was right and I followed them by my own wish, I was discovering my own interests and I was discovering what is right by obverving what is happening around. And yes, I can thank my parents for not being dictators. Of course they stopped me when I was doing something wrong, it was not something like absolute freedom to everything. They didn't spoil me and I can thank them for that. I wanted to play with PC so badly when I was rather young, they let me to play only for few hours only saturdays, I thank them for it.

Why not to thank your parents for being successful at something? I am not saying that all credit goes to parents, of course not, most of credit should go to your own efforts, but influence was made and it should not be ignored. Meanwhile GOD did nothing!

RedSphinx wrote:Yeah, we try to fuck up each other by pointing out the flaws of sentences in this discussion, being not precise enough lead to this reversion for both, you and me. That's how it goes with all discussions.

I'm not trying to 'fuck you up' or trick you or anything. I was just pointing out that saying someone is not a genius does not make them retarded. There is enough middle ground to go around here.

RedSphinx wrote:How you evaluate this from your point of view? You don't reveal your opinion on this so far.

My point of view is subjective and as such I normally stray from using my beliefs as a base for my arguments.

RedSphinx wrote:If a priest is considered educated and intelligent, there are many of those, but one speak: *I do what god tell me to do, all I know is god's ways and I follow it.* Umm, that's total rubbish to say. Intelligent and educated person believe in talking snakes, believe in getting all world's life into one boat or expanding the humanity from two individuals when their children have sex and give birth to some abominations due to bloodmix. A man with a head on his shoulders should believe it NOWDAYS?

Never to this day have I met a person who believes those passages (or the Greek mythology for example) as the complete and only truth. I don't think that even the pope would claim them to be anything else but myths, if only for the fact that the bible was recorded by people.

RedSphinx wrote:... Parents support financiely, parents support you psychologically and yes they can set morals by not FORCE TEACHING but by seting the example of their own. Of course you didn't mean it and I gonna try to fuck you up with words once again, but you're saying parents DO NOT INFLUENCE their children at all?

What? I never stated that parents do not influence you or set an example. In fact I said the exact opposite. Family, friends, teachers, personal beliefs, they all alter the way you live your life. Some more than others.

Furthermore, I have yet to see a man forced into a religion. Most initiation rituals (be it baptizing or what have you) that I know of ask you if you wish to embrace this new religion/way of life (call it what you will). Nobody can force you to do anything.

RedSphinx wrote:Why not to thank your parents for being successful at something? I am not saying that all credit goes to parents, of course not, most of credit should go to your own efforts, but influence was made and it should not be ignored. Meanwhile GOD did nothing!

I never said it was okay to say "God did all the work, I just watched". That's just silly. What I meant was that sometimes religion can change the way you perceive things. We studied the bible in school (strictly as a literary work). Amongst the legends and myths you are bound to find interesting ideas about how to treat your fellow man.

You know how they say? *Try hard and god will help you* This is just damn hilarious.

My point of view is subjective and as such I normally stray from using my beliefs as a base for my arguments.

But I asked your honest opinion on this one. If you state your arguments and you don't believe in it yet you are quite right about it so why to state it?

Never to this day have I met a person who believes those passages

Ask any priest. One could not throw mud on the holy word of bible by saying it is just a myth! It is only now myths, back then people believed every word, just like Greece, Egypt or Norse mythologies. When a priest is being asked about it, one try to overcome it by crapping around with *I follow god and I do whatever he ask me to*. Seen plenty of those with Bill Maher or Christopher Hitchens just check the youtube.

What? I never stated that parents do not influence you or set an example. In fact I said the exact opposite.

Well, I didn't get your sarcasm there then. I said parents do help and you started asking rethorical questions if they do educate them etc.

Nobody can force you to do anything.

So you weren't baptized when you were just a baby? Someone waited till you grew up and then asked you if you would like to? If you born in some hardcore muslim family, embrace Koran or you die, simple as that.

I never said it was okay to say "God did all the work, I just watched". That's just silly.

RedSphinx wrote:But I asked your honest opinion on this one. If you state your arguments and you don't believe in it yet you are quite right about it so why to state it?

Because it's the right thing. Let's say, for example, that I hate classical music. If I say that classical music is retarded and believe in my claim, would that make it any more true?

RedSphinx wrote:Ask any priest. One could not throw mud on the holy word of bible by saying it is just a myth! When a priest is being asked about it, one try to overcome it by crapping around with *I follow god and I do whatever he ask me to*. Seen plenty of those with Bill Maher or Christopher Hitchens just check the youtube.

Have you asked a real priest or are you just extrapolating from youtube channels (this is completely out of curiosity here)?

RedSphinx wrote:So you weren't baptized when you were just a baby? Someone waited till you grew up and then asked you if you would like to? If you born in some hardcore muslim family, embrace Koran or you die, simple as that.

As a matter of fact, I was never baptized as a child. Neither was my brother, or my mother (she decided to get baptized at the age of 46).

I consider the case where a family forces a child into a religion their fault, not the religion's. I do not know if there are any religious 'laws' that obligate you to give your children to this religion or that.

Furthermore, you can change your religion legally, much the same way you can change your name if you don't like it.

RedSphinx wrote:Exactly, then why they say it?

I guess if you believe that the universe follows a deterministic model then your actions are essentially not your own. That being said, I still don't like people who don't give themselves any credit for their work.

RedSphinx wrote:Yeah, we try to fuck up each other by pointing out the flaws of sentences in this discussion, being not precise enough lead to this reversion for both, you and me.

You implicitly asserted that "not stupid" equates to "smart," relying on the assumption that smart or stupid is an accurate dichotomy. You did not demonstrate the validity of that assumption (in fact, vrm falsified it); the conclusion does not follow. It has nothing to do with "precision"; you made a blatantly flawed argument derived from a false dichotomy.

Or perhaps your idea of argumentation is writing random, unrelated things not really intending to refute the obverse position. I dunno. Is that what "fuck you up with words" means?

RedSphinx wrote:That's how it goes with most discussions.

I know. it's sad.

RedSphinx wrote:But if one believe an obvious lie, which is the base of religion, he is not stupid nor smart? How you call it then? Normal? Huh. How you evaluate this from your point of view? You don't reveal your opinion on this so far.

I don't see why you should sharply generalize ~5 billion people (src) when the only determining factor is that they generally arrive at some supernatural conclusion, especially when the arguments vary wildly.

some people believe due to blind faith; other people believe because they find the transcendental argument for the existence of God true and consider Jesus' existence and divinity historically verifiable. even if you assume it must necessarily be blind faith (or some other very bad reasoning), you said (paraphrasing) that they can necessarily not have a sharp and critical mindset if they're religious. do all the religious people you know accept any claim you bring up on blind faith? I know plenty of Christians that are fully capable of at least general reasoning if not critical, skeptical thinking and logic, but simply separate it in regards to their religion, consider their personal, spiritual experiences valid, or have some logical or philosophical proof for the existence of God that they find valid. If someone doesn't try to impose anything on people on the basis of religion and is fully capable of having a sharp mindset in every other part of their life, and perhaps even in the religious part of their life as well, what is the problem?

I don't assume a religious person to be anything on the basis of their religion but religious, nor do I assume a nonreligious person to be anything on the basis of their lack of religion than nonreligious.

RedSphinx wrote:Of course you didn't mean it and I gonna try to fuck you up with words once again, but you're saying...

although you're hardly intelligible, it seems like you're admitting that you're gonna misrepresent him right after. rly? I mean, not noticing that you're doing it is one thing, but admitting that what you're gonna say doesn't reminisce the other party's point is intentionally dishonest.

WRUM! wrote:I guess if you believe that the universe follows a deterministic model then your actions are essentially not your own. That being said, I still don't like people who don't give themselves any credit for their work.

WRUM! wrote:I guess if you believe that the universe follows a deterministic model then your actions are essentially not your own. That being said, I still don't like people who don't give themselves any credit for their work.

compatibilism is free will independent of determinism

That makes more sense in the context of religion, actually.

If I understood the wiki right you are still influenced by the environment (the god in religion), however, so it would be safe to say that god/your environment played a substantial part in your achievements, I guess.

Because it's the right thing. Let's say, for example, that I hate classical music. If I say that classical music is retarded and believe in my claim, would that make it any more true?

Only if you have arguments and proper reasons for it.

Have you asked a real priest or are you just extrapolating from youtube channels

I didn't ask one personally.

I consider the case where a family forces a child into a religion their fault, not the religion's. I do not know if there are any religious 'laws' that obligate you to give your children to this religion or that.

If you believe in religion with all your heart, how can you not force your children into your religion? Imagine it. If you believe and you don't force your siblings, then you don't really believe in it. Isn't it?

Furthermore, you can change your religion legally, much the same way you can change your name if you don't like it.

You can't change it so easily in your head like you can do it on papers.

other people believe because they find the transcendental argument for the existence of God true and consider Jesus' existence and divinity historically verifiable

This is blind faith, because there is no proper argument for that one.

do all the religious people you know accept any claim you bring up on blind faith?

Of course not, they have the argument as you mentioned earlier, yet that argument is the blind faith. Prove me wrong and I'll shut up.

I know plenty of Christians that are fully capable of at least general reasoning if not critical, skeptical thinking and logic, but simply separate it in regards to their religion, consider their personal, spiritual experiences valid, or have some logical or philosophical proof for the existence of God that they find valid.

critical, skeptical thinking and logic and yet one believe in tales of bible. Being capable to solve math problem doesn't mean you are critical / skeptical about what you do in your daily life. It is a paradox, imagine a thinker who is like the one you described and yet he is so faithful about poor lad Jesus, meaning one: He is not faithful OR he is not skeptical.

it seems like you're admitting that you're gonna misrepresent him right after. rly?

Because I didn't get his point, so I interpret what he said, not what he meant since I could not understand it 100% what he actually meant.

although you're hardly intelligible

Yes I am.

But it is funny how you transformed here, be yourself, don't act. A bunch of fancy words without a thought.

RedSphinx wrote:If you believe in religion with all your heart, how can you not force your children into your religion? Imagine it. If you believe and you don't force your siblings, then you don't really believe in it. Isn't it?

(I'll narrow this down to Christianity) If you believe in Christianity then you should know that forcing a choice upon others is wrong.

RedSphinx wrote:You can't change it so easily in your head like you can do it on papers.

If you are having this kind of trouble then you already believe and have no reason to change it. If you hate your religion and have been forced into it, I believe you will forget it rather quickly .

(I'll narrow this down to Christianity) If you believe in Christianity then you should know that forcing a choice upon others is wrong.

Then millions of people around the world go against their own religion when they baptize a baby, right? Because they do it without asking.

If you are having this kind of trouble then you already believe and have no reason to change it. If you hate your religion and have been forced into it, I believe you will forget it rather quickly

Haha, true about this one, but look. How many religions out there in entire world? Many, don't know exact number. Anyway, the variaty of religions just prove that none religion is true. What kind of moron would think like: *Oh, christianity is silly and lame, I don't like it, I gonna follow Allah instead*? Where is the true value of religion? Every religion say their ways are the only and true, but true way can be only one. They say every religion worship the same god but with different name, this is hilarious, if it is that so, I wonder what god prefers the most, to be worshipped at church every sunday or to be worshipped every day many times like arabs do, I wonder who god would love more here. It is hard to put it in words for me, that's just wrong. So you worship that worship this, what is more true? To christians, arabs do wrong, to arabs, christian do wrong, so we all go to hell. Before religions all people went to hell too, because they didn't worship jesus. What more obvious it need to prove that religion is one big fake cake?