In any case, I just remembered something though. Since the alleged Samaya, and within three years of "breaking it", I've been to Pujas where they bless the Tsok and Wine (Ganachakrapuja), of which I'd partaken; and does that not restore Samaya?

I was also at the same Ganapuja yesterday, and as we were consuming the bread; the Lama said something about how partaking of it ensures that we don't go to the lower realms, etc.

But I don't know, it's possible that I've gone three years without attending such a Puja....

Oh well, I'm pretty sure that I've never authentically received any Transmission anyhow. And if I do Receive one in the future, now I know what I'm getting into; at least as far as knowing what's required of me.

Lhug-Pa wrote:So my first question is: If he had received authentic Direct Introduction at some point before this situation I'm describing here occurred, does that in itself qualify him to give others Transmission (if he was keeping his Samaya of course)? Or would have to meet other qualifications (besides simply having received the Transmission) in order to qualify for giving the Direct Introduction to other people?

No, just receiving it it didn't make him qualified to give it to others. Takes a high level of realization to be able to give it to others as well as a certain capacity. Your friend is a good example of how the Dzogchen teachings are in the risk of degenerating.

/magnus

We are all here to help each other go through this, whatever it is.~Kurt Vonnegut

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

"Even though you have recognized your essence, if you do not get accustomed to it,You will be carried away by the enemy of thoughts, like a small child in a battle field.So long as you are not free from the limitations of accepting and rejecting,That long will you not recognize the view of the innermost secret heart-essence."

If that's even what happened. My mind might even be making it all up, or embellishing something similar that transpired that day; but I wouldn't put it past him, considering how he acted back then (he might have changed since that five years ago, I don't talk to him very much lately). Anyway, even if it did happen, which I think it did; I doubt very much that he was qualified to give any Transmission.

Not only will you burn in Vajra Hell forever but your friend, the one that gave you the transmission, will be the one lighting the flames each morning at some ungodly hour. Now the hour will depend on daylight savings, so I can't say for sure what time it will be exactly, but rest asured that it WILL be ungodly!

qualification and ability, all that and more, is part of relative view ... you don't need a diplomatic passport to tell the dharma, that's not how it works

Sönam

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -

Sönam wrote: [snip] you don't need a diplomatic passport to tell the dharma, that's not how it works

Sönam

No, but you do need to know and have significantly integrated the Dharma you're teaching in order to be able to effectively teach it. In Dzogchen, obviously the Dharma is the natural state of the individual and all phenomena... One can parrot words one has heard that speak of the natural state and pretend to be melding one's mind with a friend, but this is not likely to lead to one's friend's realization of Dzogpa Chenpo. But having significant, unmistaken knowledge of the natural state, and stability in that knowledge, one can help others gain it for themselves. That's the only way one can teach Dzogchen.

Sönam wrote: [snip] you don't need a diplomatic passport to tell the dharma, that's not how it works

Sönam

No, but you do need to know and have significantly integrated the Dharma you're teaching in order to be able to effectively teach it. In Dzogchen, obviously the Dharma is the natural state of the individual and all phenomena... One can parrot words one has heard that speak of the natural state and pretend to be melding one's mind with a friend, but this is not likely to lead to one's friend's realization of Dzogpa Chenpo. But having significant, unmistaken knowledge of the natural state, and stability in that knowledge, one can help others gain it for themselves. That's the only way one can teach Dzogchen.

yes ... it is more how it works

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -

Lhug-Pa wrote:So my first question is: If he had received authentic Direct Introduction at some point before this situation I'm describing here occurred, does that in itself qualify him to give others Transmission (if he was keeping his Samaya of course)?

No.

Or would have to meet other qualifications (besides simply having received the Transmission) in order to qualify for giving the Direct Introduction to other people?

Yes.

And if that alone doesn't make him qualified to do that, yet he for other reasons was somehow qualified to give me the Transmission (which I doubt); did it "count", since I was not fully aware of what was occuring?

In other words, has he been my Root Guru all along without me knowing it? If so, then I've been breaking Samaya innumerable times since then? (Bear in mind that this was over three years ago)

No.

so I think he may have been or is a practitioner at some level; but was not qualified to teach others, and therefore I did not actually receive a Direct Introduction to the Nature of Mind (?)

Correct.

Samaya is established only if it is made crystal clear to us everything that that specific Samaya entails, yes?

Samaya is established by interest in a teaching and participation. Samaya is like wine, it develops with age.

gregkavarnos wrote:Not only will you burn in Vajra Hell forever but your friend, the one that gave you the transmission, will be the one lighting the flames each morning at some ungodly hour. Now the hour will depend on daylight savings, so I can't say for sure what time it will be exactly, but rest asured that it WILL be ungodly!

Probably that friend of yours is a bit Just forget the whole thing. He was playing the master and your were gullible enough to fall for it. You haven't received transmission and there's no samaya involved.By the way, is he even a lama and if so, who recognizes such status?

Dechen Norbu wrote:By the way, is he even a lama and if so, who recognizes such status?

Best wishes.

This is not the point !

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -

gregkavarnos wrote:"That is not the point!" <--------- aaaahhh, there it is!

Pointing out of the point, consider yourself bound by samaya!

! is the essence of samaya

Sönam

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -

Pema Rigdzin wrote:No, but you do need to know and have significantly integrated the Dharma you're teaching in order to be able to effectively teach it. In Dzogchen, obviously the Dharma is the natural state of the individual and all phenomena... One can parrot words one has heard that speak of the natural state and pretend to be melding one's mind with a friend, but this is not likely to lead to one's friend's realization of Dzogpa Chenpo. But having significant, unmistaken knowledge of the natural state, and stability in that knowledge, one can help others gain it for themselves. That's the only way one can teach Dzogchen.

Well said.

gregkavarnos wrote:Not only will you burn in Vajra Hell forever but your friend, the one that gave you the transmission, will be the one lighting the flames each morning at some ungodly hour. Now the hour will depend on daylight savings, so I can't say for sure what time it will be exactly, but rest asured that it WILL be ungodly!

That'll learn you for breaking your samaya!

Ha. But really, even though I can see the humor in what you wrote, it really does seem to be a serious matter. It's not far-fetched that we could reembody (literally) within inferior dimensions because of karma.

And when one enters Dharma practice, it seems also that one has bigger chances to either/both create a ton of karma or pay a ton of karma in one fell-swoop.

Samael Aun Weor for example wrote that the average deluded humanoid usually takes about 1,000 years to disintegrate via devolution in the hell-realms after they've exhausted their number of humanoid-form lives. Although he also wrote that fallen-Bodhisattva's can take eons to disintegrate in the lower realms, because by having become Bodhisattva's at some point, they've subjected themselves to laws that are beyond the laws that the average sentient being is subjected to; and by subjecting themselves to those higher laws, these fallen-Bodhisattva's have been able to accumulate for themselves massive amounts of karma:

Samael Aun Weor wrote:"The souls that have already totally separated themselves from their Monad (Atman-Buddhi-Manas) go there. Those souls are of an indescribable perversity, and here they have to pass through the Second Death to which the Apocalypse refers, and of which Christ spoke to us. H.P.B. refers to the Avitchi and the Second Death in her sixth volume of The Secret Doctrine. The Bhagavad-Gita talks to us about the abyss also; however, when we talked about this topic [in 1950], the spiritualists of Colombia laughed at us."

"The final objective of the Infernal Worlds is to destroy the ego and the Lunar Bodies in order for the soul to become liberated through the door of the Second Death. The suffering of the failed souls in the Infernal Worlds is symbolically written by Dante in his Divine Comedy. The most perverse Black Magicians live within the Infernal Worlds; it will take trillions of years before they can reach the Second Death. Ordinary people can reach the Second Death in 800 to 1000 years more or less. The souls pay a Karmic invoice within the Infernal Worlds every 100 years. In the Infernal Worlds, time is extremely long and terribly boring. It is time of millenarian rocks. The Second Death is necessary so that the failed souls can return into the primeval original chaos. Here, they have to reinitiate their journey, passing through mineral, plant, and animal evolutions until finally reaching the human state anew."

"Indeed, we are not talking about eternal damnation or endless condemnation. Unquestionably, eternal damnation does not exist, since every punishment—as serious as it may be—has to have a limit, beyond which happiness reigns. So, in this sense, we radically differ from the clerical orthodoxy."

"In dealing with the evolutionary process we must put forth the following statement: Natura non facit saltus (Nature does not take leaps). It is therefore evident that the more advanced states of the plant kingdom allowed me passage to the animal state. I began to reembody in very simple organisms and after having taken millions of bodies, I ended up returning in more and more complex organisms...

"As an outstanding note in these paragraphs, I must assert that still I have very interesting memories of one of those many existences by the banks of a beautiful river of cheerful waters which rushed ever so musically over its bed of age old rocks... I was at that time a humble creature, a very particular specimen of the Batrachian genus. I moved about in the thicket, hopping here, there and everywhere. Clearly, I had full Consciousness of myself; I knew that formerly I had belonged to the perilous kingdom of intellectual animals... My best friends were the elementals of those plants which had their roots in the banks of the river. I talked with them in the universal language... I dwelt delightfully in the shadow, far away from rational humanoids. When I had presentiment of any immediate danger, I found refuge in the crystalline waters... I continued to return many times in various organisms before I had the pleasure of reembodying as a specimen of a certain class of very intelligent amphibians which gladly emerged from the stormy waters of the sea to greet the sun’s rays on the sandy beach... When the terrible Parca (death) came, sovereign before whom all mortals tremble with fear, I bid my last farewell to the three inferior kingdoms and returned to a humanoid organism; thus, I painfully recaptured the rational animal state which I previously lost...

"In this, my new state of a tri-brained or tri-centered biped state, I remembered and I evoked unusual abysmal incidents. I did not have the slightest desire to go back to the buried world. I longed to wisely make the most of my new cycle of one hundred and eight lives which were now assigned me for the realization of my Innermost Self. Past experience had left painful scars in the depth of my soul, and I was in no way willing to repeat the devolving processes of the internal world. I knew well that the Wheel of Samsara turns incessantly in an evolving and devolving way and that Essences, after passing through the intellectual animal kingdom, descend millions of times to the horrifying precipice to eliminate the subjective elements of perception. However, by no means did I long for more abysmal suffering, and that is why I was very willing to make the best of my new cycle of rational existences."

Namdrol wrote:Samaya is established by interest in a teaching and participation.

So basically, Samaya is established only if the participant is sincere, at least knows exactly what the specific Samaya requires of him/her; and the teacher is qualified to confer the Empowerment/Transmission?

Namdrol wrote:Samaya is like wine, it develops with age.

On the flip-side of this, it can also degenerate with age (as I'm sure you are aware); and as Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche and others have said, that after having gone three years without purifying it, it becomes irreparable.

But I like your wine simile.

Dechen Norbu wrote:Lhug-pa,

Probably that friend of yours is a bit

Actually, come to think of it; he did have a bit of a Christ-complex. No joke. However I don't want to go into details out of respect to him.

Dechen Norbu wrote:Just forget the whole thing. He was playing the master and your were gullible enough to fall for it. You haven't received transmission and there's no samaya involved.By the way, is he even a lama and if so, who recognizes such status?

Best wishes.

No he is not a Lama.

Now I would imagine that it's possible that there are Beings who actually are Lamas yet who are not formally recognized as such (this seems to be what Sönam is implying here). Although as I've been saying here, this person in question is most likely not one of them.

Best Regards

Last edited by Lhug-Pa on Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

Lhug-Pa wrote:.. even though I can see the humor in what you wrote, it really does seem to be a serious matter. It's not far-fetched that we could reembody (literally) within inferior dimensions because of karma.

Rebirth in the lower realms is definitely possible.

Samael Aun Weor for example wrote that the average deluded humanoid usually takes about 1,000 years to disintegrate via devolution in the lower realms.......

Absolute gibberish. Much safer to rely on the teachings of Buddha.

So basically, Samaya is established only if the participant is sincere, at least knows exactly what the specific Samaya requires of him/her; and the teacher is qualified to confer the Empowerment/Transmission?

Yes.

Dechen Norbu wrote:Just forget the whole thing. He was playing the master and your were gullible enough to fall for it. You haven't received transmission and there's no samaya involved.

Exactly.

Now I would imagine that it's possible that there are Beings who actually are Lamas yet who are not formally recognized as such.

To clarify something as well: Samael Aun Weor actually didn't say about 1,000 years in the lower-realms, as I'd claimed he said; but he said about 1,000 years in the hell-realms specifically (please see the quote in my previous post to see what he actually wrote).