i had asked why does armed forces need to sacrifice for their stupidities.IAF already holds the edge against PAF and if the modernization plan is lost coz of these civilian goons then apart from internal loops in security,foriegn threat from india due to tech gap will over power Pakistan also.I seriously think PAF can maintain a budget once these civilian goons are thrown off the prestigious seats and out of the country.When we are on the verge of a bankrupcy then why dont u bother mentioning that swiss bank accounts should be relocated back in the country for country's good and to avoid the damn bankrupcy?the incapable government should be thrown out of the ruling chair instead of creating a havoc on cutting defence budgets and targetting military aquistions.today ur solution is to cut paf budget,tomorrow army and naval also?thats no solution bro.

Why? A better question is how? How will you pay for your military spending when you have no money in the first place and nobody will loan you money because your credit rating is so low? Your only solution is to cut spending across the board, including military. It's not a good idea for a person in debt to keep on spending.

Why? A better question is how? How will you pay for your military spending when you have no money in the first place and nobody will loan you money because your credit rating is so low? Your only solution is to cut spending across the board, including military. It's not a good idea for a person in debt to keep on spending.

I have already answered why and how but if u want i will answer again.WHY? because India is a threat on our east border and US is a threat on our west border,both better in aircraft technology and numbers than us.HOW?Throw Zardari his other idiots out before he eats everything.The solution right now is to bring back Mush or any other better person than zardari who knows to run the country.Cut the spending and how fight the internal and external threats?Pakistan was in debt even when Alkhalid and JF-17 programs were started many years ago.It was in debt during their R&D period also.It was a good plan that Pakistan kept spending with China on these even during debt and is now inducting them in forces.Good economic policies will ensure a steady flow of money not cutting budgets here and there, coz even if u cut,Zardari will still ask for aid n will keep asking for aid,and that much of that aid will be consumed by him and his goons.

Why? A better question is how? How will you pay for your military spending when you have no money in the first place and nobody will loan you money because your credit rating is so low? Your only solution is to cut spending across the board, including military. It's not a good idea for a person in debt to keep on spending.

WE HAVE MONEY but it goes straight into the pockets of our leaders. Even if we keep a single rupee for our military, we will still suffer the losses unless we change our polices and kick out these so called leaders.

I dont know how the World War 3 will be faught, But i do know that World War 4 will be faught with sticks and stones!

thats 500 fighters and 400 top of the line fighters, then no way US can ever cross our airspace impossible! The Thunders can chase any USAF fighter

The F-22 Raptor was designed to comprehensively defeat advanced fourth generation fighters even without AEW&C support. It clocked a 140-0 kill ratio at Alaska in the Northern Edge exercise against frontline F-16 and F-15 fighters.

The F-22 Raptor was specifically designed to comprehensively defeat advanced fourth generation fighters even without AEW&C support. It clocked a 140-0 kill ratio at Alaska in the Northern Edge exercise against frontline F-16 and F-15 fighters.

Pakistan's threaten is NOT from the United States but its southern neighbour.Such an air force is more than enough to counter its enemy.

The F-22 Raptor was specifically designed to comprehensively defeat advanced fourth generation fighters even without AEW&C support. It clocked a 140-0 kill ratio at Alaska in the Northern Edge exercise against frontline F-16 and F-15 fighters.

and where is F22 going to take off from India? then we will just mushroom cloud the lot

F22 cant even come within striking distance if Pakistan wages full war against US because all their assets will be destroyed

the only threat will be F35 which isnt even operational and J10 can handle F35 anyday anywhere

and dont BS out of your a$$ where did you get this 140-0 kill you ret@tard

"The mosques are our barracks, the minarets our bayonets, the domes our helmets, and the believers our soldiers"

and where is F22 going to take off from India? then we will just mushroom cloud the lot

The first wave will be B-2s who'll take out all command and control nodes, and cripple communication networks. Follow that up with cruise missile barrages from sea based platforms. F-22's will probably not even be required, but if they are employed it'll be probably be from Iraq and Diego Garcia supported by KC-135s. Actually come to think about it Shornets could probably do the job just as well. And since the thought hasn't crossed your mind, there are some very nasty repercussions of nuking another country not the least of which is a retaliatory nuclear strike. Developing nukes doesn't mean you are now 'playing in God mode'.

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F22 cant even come within striking distance if Pakistan wages full war against US because all their assets will be destroyed

US assets are literally distributed all over the world, so your claim is ridiculous.

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the only threat will be F35 which isnt even operational and J10 can handle F35 anyday anywhere

The only place the J-10 can handle the F-35 is on the ground and nowhere else.

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and dont BS out of your a$$ where did you get this 140-0 kill you ret@tard

I've named the exercise, named the statistic, named the location, named the aircraft. Since you're not familiar with google:-

"The F-22ís debut combat exercise was at Northern Edge in June 2006. According to Air Force data, the dozen F-22s in attendance racked up an unprecedented kill record of 144-0 the first week alone and suffered no losses overall."

All I can say for J-10 is that it's a great 3rd generation aircraft at the top tier of its league. With that said, some Pakistanis are overestimating the J-10. It is not in the same generation as F-22 or F-35. Besides, Pakistan lacks the force-multiplier infrastructure to maximize the effectiveness of the plane (AWACS + ECM aircrafts + ground radar coverage) like China does, so that prevents Pakistan from using the plane to its full potential.

The question of how to rebuild the PAF depends largely on the state of Pakistan's finances, political stability & other factors coming into play. It is clear to any body that the 1990s was the 'lost decade' but it was also one where new opportunity was found. Stop-gap solutions were presented with ROSE Mirages & of course upgraded F-7Ps. One could argue that the PAF could have done better (for instance, the Mirage III/5 didn't include canards, uprated Atar 9K-50 or better still the RD-33/SMR-95 & IFR as many Mirage III/5 customers opted for) but what's done is done, & the Mirages are over 90% used with little shell life remaining. The F-7PG was a major boost at the time. The J-9 (FC-1/JF-17) will make up the mainstay of the PAF, & Pakistan is expected to receive a better than anticipated work-share of the project. 250 units are planned, & development is ongoing. Though late, continued upgrades & enhancements should keep it current & it would make the right mainstay of the PAF.

Future procurements should plough as many funds back into Pakistan as possible.

The J-10 is in many ways the right candidate as China plans up to 300 of the type, & this will probably increase. Its principle advantages over the J-9 (FC-1/JF-17) are its longer range & payload, & performance parameters put it closer to the MiG-29 & Mirage 2000 fielded by India. Pending its multi-role capabilities, the J-10 can replace the Mirage III/5 & F-7P at interception & can carry out deep escort missions for the J-9, F-16MLU & remaining ROSE Mirages. The J-10 with the Erieye combination would prove a useful asset & with the Chinese Super 10 (a JXX project) to join the PAF will have something to compete with the MCA & future Indian procurements.

The F-16 is something of an issue in itself. I believe that the PAF should acquire the F-16A/B (from surplus NATO inventories) as upwards of 50% have been retired without reaching half their shell lives while PAC Kamra can install the MLU upgrade using kits. Like the ROSE programme (that could have been done in Pakistan) the F-16MLU for Pakistan must be as customised as possible & as much in-sourcing as possible is needed to reduce costs & gain know-how. For instance, rather than just go for a standard MLU package, FIAR's Grifo 2000 radar can be selected & installed.

"We were told the purpose of the mission was to bring in the weapon but it's not the weapon it's the fighter pilot inside"

All I can say for J-10 is that it's a great 3rd generation aircraft at the top tier of its league. With that said, some Pakistanis are overestimating the J-10. It is not in the same generation as F-22 or F-35. Besides, Pakistan lacks the force-multiplier infrastructure to maximize the effectiveness of the plane (AWACS + ECM aircrafts + ground radar coverage) like China does, so that prevents Pakistan from using the plane to its full potential.

First rule of war is know your limitation.

Yea you are right, we don't have any Dassualt Falcon ECM & ECCM a/c, neither are we expecting the Ericsson AWACS to be delivered. And Clearly we haven't made any progress towards acquring Midas refulers or KC-130s from US.

Yea you are right, we don't have any Dassualt Falcon ECM & ECCM a/c, neither are we expecting the Ericsson AWACS to be delivered. And Clearly we haven't made any progress towards acquring Midas refulers or KC-130s from US. Btw, i am guessing your knowledge regarding PAF's Ground Radar coverage is non-existant, otherwise you haven't made the borderline retarded comment above.

And all these systems from all these different countries will intergrate without any trouble for PAF right? I am sure Pakistan has a magical solution to intergrating half of the world's arms supplier to work flawlessly, like India. I am also certain you have another magical solution to operate J-10 as effective as China. Who needs years of experience, technical expertise and standardization when you have magic?

And all these systems from all these different countries will intergrate without any trouble for PAF right? I am sure Pakistan has a magical solution to intergrating half of the world's arms supplier to work flawlessly, like India. I am also certain you have another magical solution to operate J-10 as effective as China. Who needs years of experience, technical expertise and standardization when you have magic?

PAF is procuring ZDK03 AWACS from China and IL-78 Midas from Ukraine...it already inducted Chinese land based phased-array radars...it may even seem that the PLAAF has a significant influence nowadays on the PAF's decisions. I once discussed the possibility of the F-16s and Erieye being used for primarily "acceptable" purposes of counter-insurgency, air defence as well as supporting surveillance and coordinating relief/emergency services...whereas the 'other' fleet composed of primarily Chinese systems for actual warfare & offensive purposes.

I think that the PAF can induct up to 10-15 J-9 (FC-1/JF-17) per year, with a pilot of ratio of 1.5 to one 15-21 pilots per year. The J-9 can be inducted quickly to replace the F-7P (95 active units + 65 or so reserves & with an A2A role) where a multi-role J-10 would replace early Mirages for interception. The F-16MLU would replace Mirage III/5 (including ROSE types) for strike/attack & would mostly carry on A2G roles.

I see that the PAF must acquire two more SAAB 2000 'Erieye' (for a total of seven) & lease four to six E-2C (ex-USN) where I don't see how IFR (In Flight Refueling) is an urgent priority as the MUPSOW & TORGOS (from Kentron) can be used where the French MBDA APACHE (150km range) can be used for strike missions. The domestic RAAD & other PGMs. The new IFR aircraft suggests that the PAF wants to deploy overseas & abroad (to Turkey or the US for excercises?).

"We were told the purpose of the mission was to bring in the weapon but it's not the weapon it's the fighter pilot inside"

The J-10A/B cannot be easily adapted to strike/attack with the same systems as the ROSE II/III Mirages, but upgrades & systems can occur. One problem for the PAF is that unlike the F-7M 'Airguard' PAC Kamra will have to carry out a lot of integration of weapons & weapons systems on the J-10 series. Should this happen the PAF would simply buy 'clean' J-10s but would be tasked with fitting in the nav/attack systems & possibly radar as well. A look at the F-7PG shows what is possible. The question is how cost-effective would it be? If we consider a cost+performance trade-off it should be tempting but the development of the WS-10A would be a major boost as the AL-31FNII engines may be somewhat problematic to acquire.

Suppose Pakistan completely ignored the J-9 (FC-1/JF-17) project since obviously the PLAAF or PLAN-AF may not order too many. They may not even order the 100-150 they were previously thought likely to so, then the only option left would be the J-10 & F-16MLU &/or F-16C/D Block 52+ & that may appear to provide a more coherent force structure. Fewer aircraft types, greater commonality pools & ultimately reduced costs, but in retrospect it would lack the critical mass needed or the offset requirements in-country. Likewise, the J-9 provides higher service+sortie rates.

As I see it, Pakistan has a good bargin with the BABUR (700km) & RAAD (350km) cruise missiles & using the J-9 (FC-1/JF-17) & J-10 as platforms will no doubt provide deterrent (especially against the Indian Navy) & would reduce the risk for striking PAF aircraft (especially as they won't have to go too deep into Indian airspace) particularly if both cruise missiles carried anti-runway munitions. On the other hand, India's SAM system could prove tricky & Pakistan's ballistic deterrent has already been compromised there. The S-300-series in particular are designed to intercept low-flying cruise missiles. This (arguably) would reduce the numbers of strike aircraft needed & improve survivability since PAF strikers need not venture deep into India & risk getting shot down by interceptors &/or SAMs.

"We were told the purpose of the mission was to bring in the weapon but it's not the weapon it's the fighter pilot inside"

holy ####, I say we cancel the order for F-16s and get twice as many of these babies for the same price

I agree very much. PAF only needs a limited amount of Block 50+ F-16s. The weaponry delivered with the F-16s is another plus. The F-16s should primarily serve as a learning platform. The J-10s are really a much better option. That's the future of PAF. The J-10 has a lot of potential. It has a bigger nose that can accommodate a more powerful AESA radar. Also, the range is much greater and payload wise exactly what PAF requires. It's very much an F-16 killer. I think PAF ought to adapt the same trick as with the Thunders. Fit the J-10s with a mix of Western/Chinese weaponry and radars. Cost will be reduced substantially.

Yeah. Like Top gun said, it won't be that easy to make J-10 into a frontline strike platform, the Chinese haven't finalized it for that yet, just like the first tranche of Eurofighter. But in air to air, I think it can already do better than F-16s if we get some time to train with it.

So maybe all F-16s should be relegated to strike role, with their already-mature strike capability and array of impressive arms, while the J-10 can take over front-line air-defense. You can bet the Indians have never trained vs J-10s, while the U.S. and Singapore have let them train vs F-16's to their heart's content. And in the strike role, the older air-frames of F-16s won't have to be subjected to high numbers of hours that air-defense fighters must endure, even in peace times.

Another clip: THRUST-TO-WEIGHT RATIO, ANYONE?Existing information on web puts J-10's TWR at below 1... this video craps all over that... We already know how much AL-31F outputs, so the J-10 weight must be lower than we expected. Maybe heavy use of composites?

If we were to consider the needs of the PAF today they would be as follows.

- F-7P has a poor safety record, & has shown considerable signs of wear- Mirage III/5 have covered over 90% of their operational lives (spare parts are harder to acquire) - A-5C has no operational value in a high-tech environment

These fighters make up over 85% of the PAF fleet, assuming 50 F-16A/B have been included in an 400+ combat aircraft force. The problem becomes worse when you consider that only half the 160 Mirage III/5 force have been through a ROSE upgrade, & no upgrade can bring the F-7P up to standard capable enough. The J-9 (FC-1/JF-17) comes with a build-in A2A capability, your standard PL-12 (SD-10) & your PL-9C &/or AIM-9L, AIM-9M. KLJ-7 radar, & other capabilities. This should replace the F-7P with immediate effect. A good option would be to mix F-7P pilots with more experienced ex-F-16 pilots on the J-9 & focus on the intercept role. In the meantime, the CCS can re-equip one squadron with the J-9, while development of weapons systems & training is carried out by PAC Kamra, particularly for weapons systems integration, most notably the A2G suit & radar.

Besides cost restrictions there are physical restrictions. Production of the J-9 (FC-1/JF-17) may take 10-15 aircraft per year, & that's before 'full swing' (keep in mind export-clients have priority) where the PAF may be able to train up to 10-15 & possibly 20-25 pilots per year. Given that a ratio of 2:1 pilots are needed per cockpit one can logically assume that a jet-trainer may speed up the process a little. The PAF could absorb between 5 - 15 aircraft per year (depending on exports). It was hoped that the PAF would have 100 before 2010, but as it is, there may only be 20-30 before 2010, possibly 50. The J-10A/B would no doubt take up more experienced F-16 pilots who would also be easier as the PAF would acquire at least half a dozen J-10B for conversion training. This should speed up the transition & would allow experienced F-16A/B pilots to go as well as some Mirage III/5 tasked with A2A missions. Only the multi-role fighter pilots or A2G specialists would move on to the F-16MLU.

That way you have the J-9 with the former (mainly) F-7P pilots, & the J-10 with former F-16 & some Mirage III/5 pilots while the F-16MLU would be manned by the multi-role pilots. Keep in mind, the F-16C/D Block 52+ (as is planned) is a waste of money (in my opinion anyway) but is not without its capabilities. Those would be manned by the best in the PAF & no doubt this makes a paradigm for rebuilding the PAF. In theory up to 200 new aircraft can be inducted in 10 years, (assuming financing is there).

"We were told the purpose of the mission was to bring in the weapon but it's not the weapon it's the fighter pilot inside"

Hakim Bey: Don't just survive while waiting for someone's revolution to clear your head
Napoleon Bonaparte: The world suffers a lot, not because of the violence of bad people, but because of the silence of good people!

The PN will raise its own fighter squadron soon, but will probably start out with Mirages.

I am not sure if PAF will acquire J-11B...I initially thought it'd bea good idea for strike and maritime-naval purposes - but apparently the Chinese are developing a naval variant of J-10. Though one can always argue the J-11B's engine commonality with J-10; superior range, payload; and capacity to house a larger radar & more ECM/EW than J-10 as an advantage...I think we'll have to wait and see. Even if the F-16 deal fails, any J-11B purchase would not be seen as a stopgap or fill-in as the Flankers would definitely be the last to arrive in Pakistan due to a number of reasons - ranging from PLAAF's requirements and China's export restrictions on the fighter. As an alternative to the F-16s the PAF may try to lease a number of Mirage 2000/-5/-9 until the FC-20 & JF-17 reach suffecient numbers.

J-11 would be a great option but China won't export it due to patents & restrictions. Although it may come with 100% Chinese components (the catch is with WS-10A engines that are still not on par with the AL-31FN) it may not have the performance needed & besides with the Super 10 & JXX series being developed the PAF can hold its breath until they arrive. I honestly think that China's JXX can match or exceed India's MCA & certainly would be intended to counter the latest in Europe & the USA, but time will tell. For now, even India doesn't have access to a stealthy machine.

"We were told the purpose of the mission was to bring in the weapon but it's not the weapon it's the fighter pilot inside"

is it possible for pak and bangla to place a joint order for something like rafale or typhoon? imagine rafale or typhoon on india's both side west and east. india will just go mad.

Rafale or typhoon to Bangladesh????????? Are you kidding mate. Can Bangladesh afford these birds? Having them is one thing and flying them is another. It need lot of investment and day to day expenses.

The Typhoon or Rafale would make a great edition to the PAF inventory. Unfortunately the main problem in acquiring them is money, & neither are selling cheaply. Of course purchasing them would dramatically impact on the PAF's force structure & acquisitions of other aircraft. For instance, if (say) the funding came for 60-72 Typhoon, then the PAF would have to acquire more JF-17 & fewer F-16 or J-10 (if any of the two at all). Personally I'd rather opt for the Chinese JXX & cancel both the F-16 & J-10 if numbers of the Typhoon (or Rafale) can be had. Still, to purchase even a decent squadron of Typhoon (20 aircraft) is USD 1.8 Billion (without interest) & Pakistan's foreign reserves have been declining over the past few years!

"We were told the purpose of the mission was to bring in the weapon but it's not the weapon it's the fighter pilot inside"

Pakistan will have problems integrating different platforms. Unfortunately politics makes everything expensive! The question is, how much is actually being earmarked for the PAF? The J-9 project is too important to abandon & needs to be inducted & absorbed as quickly as possible with as many front-line units as can be equipped. Once the F-7P is stood down, the PAF's interceptor corps will be enhanced for all conditions & will finally boast a BVR-combat capability that has been missing for many years. The J-10s would (for good measure) add diversity.

From what we have been seeing+reading, the PAF apparently regards the F-16C/D Block 52+ as being capable enough. I suspect that 18 & perhaps up to 36 & modest numbers (perhaps 50-60) F-16MLU. I suspect these would be highly meshed with the Erieye &/or E-2C that Pakistan intends to purchase, while the FC-1/JF-17 will be bought in numbers. 36 J-10s would be added for good measure. Thus one can see that the PAF's plans are much more modest, with the following:

Rafale or typhoon to Bangladesh????????? Are you kidding mate. Can Bangladesh afford these birds? Having them is one thing and flying them is another. It need lot of investment and day to day expenses.

there u go at it again:)man i had a long discusson with u last time over it.

and we didn't reach an agreement then did we?

Hakim Bey: Don't just survive while waiting for someone's revolution to clear your head
Napoleon Bonaparte: The world suffers a lot, not because of the violence of bad people, but because of the silence of good people!

Hakim Bey: Don't just survive while waiting for someone's revolution to clear your head
Napoleon Bonaparte: The world suffers a lot, not because of the violence of bad people, but because of the silence of good people!

I honestly think that China's JXX can match or exceed India's MCA & certainly would be intended to counter the latest in Europe & the USA, but time will tell. For now, even India doesn't have access to a stealthy machine.

I'm not sure of this, but I think the MCA program has been merged with the PAKFA program, though I've heard some reports say otherwise. In any case, the odds are against the Jxx outperforming the T-50.

After seeing what the J-10 can do, I firmly believe the J-XX will be superior to the PAK-FA. China has been spending billions on catching up to the U.S., which is at least a decade ahead of Russia. While Russia has not introduced any new technologies for a very long time (because it has none). Their poor economic condition in the 90's has hurt their flow of R&D, all they have been doing recently is refining cold-war era designs.

Its true that they currently have a booming economy, but the benefits of that will take 5 years to translate into R&D magic. By that time China will have already taken the lead. Not to mention, if current trends are any indicator, the J-XX will be more affordable and the entire project will be overseen very efficiently, as opposed to cost overruns and delays which we'll see on the Russian side. I dare say the J-XX will enter operational service in a squadron before PAK-FA.