Friday, November 20, 2009

Art Haron vs The Lipas Man

Insider gets democratic over Dr M's remarks. Lawyer Art Haron's critic of Dr Mahathir's views on democracy has been answered by fellow columnist at The Malaysian Insider. Read Sinatra Z - An Answer, here. Art's piece was published in MI here but Zaidel aka Sinatra's response hasn't been published by the online news portal.

Sinatra's pro-M stance shines through like a crazy diamond. His concluding paras:

"There is such a thing as too much democracy, look at Pakistan, apart from cricket the national's favourite past time is politics and it is dominated by lawyers, look how screwed up it gets.

"On the other hand, China is being ruled by a group of Engineers and they are flying high.

"Dr M is a lousy philosopher yes I agree, and that's why people like him because Philosophers will only talk and do very little while technocrats (like Doctors) do more and talk less. Philosopher ini macam Anwar Ibrahim".

I don't think the Malaysian Insider would publish such a piece. Good try, though, Z. I do agree with you (and Dr M). We don't need to look so far, just across the Causeway. We are way more democratic than Singapore, and look at how many of us idolize the Republic for its progress and wealth. Given the choice, however, I'd stay put here, Z.

Former Malaysian prime minister Mahathir Mohamad has singled out India as an Asian country that has 'made the mistake of being too democratic' and compared it unfavourably with China's authoritarian regime.

Mahathir said: 'India, of course, will grow, but more slowly than China. It has the numbers but is not making use of them well.'

He identified China, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and, 'to a lesser extent', India as the countries which would lead the Asian charge, New Straits Times said Tuesday.

Mahathir, who ruled Malaysia for over two decades, told a seminar on Asia and 21st century that people 'do not understand the limits of democracy'.

'Democracy can be a hindrance to progress because you spend so much time politicking that you don't have time to develop your country.

'In China, there's not much politics. So, they can spend more time developing their country.'

He blamed the West for making democracy and freedom the cornerstone of progress.

It is the West's focus on democracy, civil rights and individual liberties - attributes flaunted by Western governments - that Mahathir identified as being the reason behind 'its economic flaccidity'.

'The British believe a lot in so-called freedom. Their workers must be allowed to go on strike all the time. So, they have the problem of being a very unproductive population.

'They must be free of everything. When you do that, productivity will drop. When productivity drops, you cannot compete.'

Talking about Asia, Mahathir ruled out a role for 'strife-torn' West Asia.

'They are not going to make much progress, unfortunately. They are not going to contribute to the Asia of the 21st century. But it doesn't matter because Asia is such a big place,' Mahathir said.

East Asia's emerging economic dominance over the West is due to its productivity and strong work ethic, he said.

However, the former premier warned of the increasing trend among young Asians to ape Western culture.

'Today, there are places in Tokyo where you see young people with multi-coloured hair. They look like Red Indians. These are the young Japanese who have adopted Western values,' said the octogenarian who continues to draw crowds six years after he quit office.

'They want to be free and be able to change the place they work, hop from one place to another and take marijuana. This is what the Europeans do. This is progress for those young people.'

Common Sense speak by Dr Mahathir and great comment by Sinatra Z. Yes we should have less of democracy and lesser politicking so that our energies can be used to further propel our country forward.

In Singapore the Bar is with the Government. So there are less lawyers politicking and picking fight with the Singapore Government thanks to LKY of course. Alas, in Malaysia the Bar Council is almost a political organisation leaning to not very Pro Government in the name of democracy. So Brunt Council I think I would agree with you also.

Art Harun is a total and completely stupid. MI is only published the articles from the stupid writers. Well wat to do becoz they have Kalimutu as their pay master.

I read Art Harun articles but unfortunately his writing is just his stupid assumption, no value, less facts and full of rubbish. These lawyers are full of bullshit and their vision is to turn our country to be ape like Pakistan. Eg. Karpal singh, farish noor, harris ibrahim, Lim kit siang, Zaid Ibrahim, BAR are mostly 70% brain useless. Even worst these lawyer are defender of criminal, thats why most of murdered case are walk free from the death sentences.

After all the negativity Art Harun list of Dr.M's legacy, i can't help but think of his smiling face on MI.

Now that smiling face could be contributed to:

A: He's hate for Dr.MB: The orgasmic ArtyFarty feeling of another article written that he thinks makes him more credible to the masses.C: Despite Malaysia being a Failed and Chaotic nation (what he says) he could still earn a living and run around this country with complete freedom.D: Anwar just tickled his balls congratulating him on another well written 'piece de shit'.

you call sinatra's piece a good one?? hahahahaha thats funny. but this is coming from someone who actually hasnt written anything substantial himself, so there is reason to forgive you, especially with your biased view of matters. by the way, half your links dont work, as usual...*floyd*

I fully support what Dr. M said. I have been saying the same things for years. Because of this, the quarrelsome gene has gotten into the Indian DNA. Remember what people say about three Indians will form a political party. There is some truth in this.

I think it would unfair to the Indian citizens for us to sit here and pass judgement. The truth right now if we are advising India, we are demonstrating a level of "bodoh sombong" that makes look stupid not only to our citizens who actually know a lot more about the world economy, but to the international businessmen who read about this.

During the periods of 1981-2003, India's GDP grew at an average of 5%, so perhaps that is why Tun Dr Mahathir was making his statement, based on outdated data. Between 2003 to 2008, India's GDP doubled from $600 b to $1,200 billion, or an average growth of 15%**.

Furthermore, the growth does not seem to be levelling off anytime soon, for this year, growth is estimated at 6-7%, whilst we will get a -3% growth. From 2000-2009, the cummalative FDI inflow to India was over $100 billion. Our Q3 growth is stil -2%

So to paint India, which together with Brazil, Russia and China, form the BRIC cartel, as a country with dominated by poor farmers once again belies the total lack of knowledge that characterizes the supporters of Tun Dr Mahathir.

**(based on current US dollar:Rupee exchange rate, data biased upwards due to US dollar depreciation)

Yes, Mahathir's style of leadership brought us into the modern world, but if you think about, it's also Mahathir's fault for the way our country is in right now. He took away many of our freedoms.He can bash the west of their "liberties" all he wants...but at least in countries where you get all these coloured haired teenagers, you can question your leaders....I'd tolerate wierdo's and slackers in the populace any day rather than deaf and mute politicians in the corridors of power

True, our country is screwed up (remember, the country had wasted RM 20 billions per annum for the last 15 years due to leakages - Morgan Stanley's) because one, due to too many politcians are lawyers and two, too many corporate leaders are accountant.These 2 groups of people are the worst kind becos they dont know how to create value but very good at manipulating laws and accounts!!

Lawyers are stupid.Case in point Manoharan via Syamsul Yunos.What has Art Harun done for Rakyat Malaysia?Probably nothing. Maybe overcharge the Rakyat for his signature on house purchases.Or get his business client to enter into more litigation to get more charges.Lawyers don't add value to Rakyat's life.They are there because of the bureaucracy requirements.

The US sends its army all over the wold to shed the blood of non white people. They unashamedly use democracy as an excuse to shed human blood.

The fact that they have been doing this without end for over 150 years now (US Marines first went ashore to kill Indonesians in the 19th century) speaks a lot about their democracy as well as the people who blindly support such demoracy.

Yet as Dr M has said, democracy is still the best option open to us.

My question however is about the US Army. Since WW2, the US Army sheds the blood of non white people all over the world to save demoracy.

But is the US Army democractic? What happens if a US Army soldier says 'I joined the US Army to defend my country but I dont want to go to Afghanistan and shed the blood of non white people there'?

The soldier will be court martialled and jailed. To save democracy all over the world the US Army cannot allow any democracy in its ranks. Otherwise they cannot invade other countries to shed the blood of non white people in their eforts to save democracy.

Today's Star says that of the 1.0 billion people in India, 600 million dont have toilets in their houses. They shit in the sreet, behind bushes and by the beach. Half of Mumbai's population shits outside the house - usually hovels that they live in. This happens everyday. The Star says everyday, 5000 children under five years old die in India because of diseases related to sanitation and human excrement. When he was PM, the late Rajiv Ghandi was criticised by Indian media for wearing fisherman's rubber boots when he walked around Mumbai.

India is a shit hole. India is full of shit. India is a shit house. India is shit. Shit is India. Shit is in India. India is IN deep shit. India IS deep in shit. Shit is deep in India.

Syed Akbar Ali,In World War II, the United States of America shed a lot of blood of white Germans. The United States of America sent their young men and women half way across the Pacific to defeat the Imperial Japanese Army who occupied Malaysia. Remember who won Malaya the freedom from the brutality of the Japanese Imperial Army? It was the United States of America.

I hate it when people dare attack the USA on some pathetic trumped up story! It is through them and that they developed the Blog , and gave for free, we can be entertained with your 2 cent opinion!

America is a beacon of hope and light to the rest of the under developed world that has shone forth for the last 2 centuries, as a tribute to what man can do if they are willing to work hard and not be fooled by the Bourgeoisie culture of inbred stupidity.

I think what Dr Mahathir meant was there is a difference between formal democracy and real democracy. The test is whether there is real democracy. Formal procedures worshsiped by the West and Mr Anwar do not guarantee prosperity. As Ibn Khaldun discovered a long time ago, its asabiya or cohesion which brings prosperity, not formal proclamations.

Those who adopt a scientific view like Ibn Khaldun tend to recognise the difference because they use outcome measures to test the concept of democracy.

Philosophers do not have such clarity of thinking or objectivity. Scientists by definition should be objective, and the better ones display great genius. Hence, our enthralment with Dr Mahathir and Hujintao and not a Anwar, or a Lee Kuan Yew.

there is thing we need to take note here. no offense to lawyer, but when i comes to select our MP, please as much as possible avoid lawyers. they are not leaders. we need engineer, doctors, scientist, architect, etc to lead us but not lawyer.

I have to agree with Wenger J Khairy. India has only recently emerged as a potent force on the world scene thanks in part to the Congress Party and Manmohan Singh.

India might be a nation of farmers, but it is also a nation producing as well exporting some of the world's top talent through its IIT's and IIM's. This is where China has lost out due to rigid controls by their government of universities which inhibits original thought.

In terms of numbers, China definitely produces more bankers, engineers etc but China is found wanting when it comes to achieving that final technological leap which their Japanese cousins and now the Indians have managed to do.

One does not need autocracy, just a disciplined mind set to see a nation succeed.

A commentator also mentioned about how Pakistan in summary is a political basket case. Indeed it is. But that is not due to democracy but simply due corruption. Ali Jinnah's daugher once commented that her father would have probably changed his mind about breaking away from India and seeking a separate homeland for muslims if he had lived to see how Pakistan would have turned out. India is just as political as Pakistan but has succeeded in finding its private sector niche in technology etc.

In summary, things can only get better for India. Malaysia on the other hand is still struggling to establish its equivalent of the IITs and IIMs.

Are you guys serious about not needing lawyers?..out of sight, out of mind...You'll only cry for them when you are in a legal jam..Statements saying lawyers are evil are just propagating stereotypes...It shows that the only lawyers you know are from TV.True...many are not statesmen who bend the destiny of the nation...but they are a necessity...like policemen, bankers, postmen, rubbish bin collectors.And, as a citizen of a "free" country...they should have every right to state their opinion, just as we are entitled to it, no matter what work he does

Dr. M whack India because he is ashame of his Indian origins. True la he nyanyok already.

Yes la maybe he brought mordenisation to malaysia but with no proper vision and gorvenance. If the whole of KL or Malaysia can be develope, they will do it for the sake of money. Look at Naza's project in TTDI. Another green lung going. The BN Govt under him till now same, They just rape the land. It's ok to them bcoz they've Rocky to spin for them.

Seems to me that Tun Dr Mahathir (TDM) left Singapore out of his list of "favoured" countries?

Why? I thot that he and a certain LKY had some things in common? Or not.

Just today I read that the Singapore private sector have invested S$1.1 billion (RM2.64 billion) in 178 manufacturing projects in Iskandar Malaysia (according to the Spore National Development Minister in reply to a question raised in the Spore Parliament).

How come TDM doesn't want to talk about this? The statistics on Iskandar Malaysia should be readily available to him.

In any case, this is what Indian PM Manmohan Singh said in his speech to the Council on Foreign Relations, a US think-tank, during his current visit to the US:

"There is no doubt that the Chinese growth performance is superior to India's. But I always believe there are other values which are more important than the grown of the gross domestic product (GDP).

"I think respect for fundamental human rights, the rule of law, respect for multi-cultural, multi-ethnic, multi-religious rights...these have values also. There are several dimensions of human freedom which are not always caught up the numbers with regard to the GDP.

"So even though India's performance with regard to the GDP might not be as good as China's, certainly I would not like to choose the Chinese path. I would prefer to stick to the Indian path."

It was also reported that the Indian PM took a swipe at China by saying that reforms undertaken by democratic societies were more effective and durable than those "introduced by the writ of a ruling group in a non-democratic set-up" (as reported in the Spore Straits Times, Nov 25).

That should put paid to some of the arguments raised by certain "nationalists" in our midst.