THE CRANE POOL FORUM thecranepool.net (.com)

I'm mostly in stand pat territory, though I wouldn't scream and shout too badly if they picked up a second baseman (even Soriano if that's all they could get; Freddy Sanchez is probably too much to ask, but I can't shake the feeling that Matsui and Cairo are strictly backup options) or that Shoppach kid. We do have (questionable) starting pitching to spare, especially if Trax comes back in a timely fashion.

Yancy Street Gang Jul 25 2005 10:20 AM

I don't want to be trading any prospects, but, if possible, I'd deal one of the starting pitchers for a first baseman or a second baseman who can hit.

Edgy DC Jul 25 2005 11:09 AM

Yeah, I agree that our redundancy in starting pitching is probably our best resource for dealing.

Anyhow, if you would, post any announced deals leading up to the deadline here.

Rotblatt Jul 25 2005 11:53 AM

I have nothing to announce, but would like to agree with the Keep Our Prospects notion. Although PTBNL from AAA would be fine--peeps like Basak and Aybar and DeFelice, etc--if it helps us get a deal done for a young catcher or first baseman who can help next year, I'm fine giving up a middling player having a nice AAA season.

I think we're set for this year. The Piazza/Castro combo looks like it'll be at least league average over the rest of the year, and if Mientkiewicz struggles, I'd have no problem using bringing up Valent and using him or platooning him with Woody.

I don't think we should trade for a 2B. If we're not happy with Cairo, let's try using one of our prospects at AAA--Lambin or Hernandez might be ready for a shot.

Johnny Dickshot Jul 25 2005 12:11 PM

If we are going to try Hernandez at 2B I'll ask what we're waiting for. Cairo is so obviously not a positive for this squad -- fields poorly, hacks like crazy. I'm driving the Ray Durham bus, people, climb aboardick. We're dropping off Brian Bannister

smg58 Jul 25 2005 12:31 PM

I'm still for giving next year the higher priority, but sacrificing too much from this year no longer looks prudent. Maybe Roberto Hernandez for Shoppach, as was discussed in a different thread, or finding a taker for Glavine, but that's as much major-league talent I'd deal without getting a clear upgrade in return.

I'm not sure Durham can field the position well enough to be worth it. I think Bannister can get us more than that.

I'd love to deal Matsui, but I think the Ponson/Nevin situation tells us what we could expect for him.

Edgy DC Jul 25 2005 12:53 PM

Nothing happens to Matsui until after he's activated, and that looks to be after the deadline. Though he could be moved after the deadline in a waiver deal. That's not what this thread's about, though.

Will Carroll is reporting that Kaz Matsui may be done for the season - meaning the Kent & Soriano rumours might have turned up a notch.

Johnny Dickshot Jul 25 2005 07:19 PM

That he won;t be returning is not a big surprise given the reports, but what does he have to say about the injury?

Yancy Street Gang Jul 25 2005 07:27 PM

Here's what the Daily News is saying about Soriano:

'Sori' situation heats up

GM Omar Minaya expects to be a buyer before Sunday's trade deadline, and the Mets' interest in former Yankees All-Star second baseman Alfonso Soriano is "hotter than people think," said a source close to the situation.The Mets and Rangers spoke earlier this season, but Texas requested Double-A outfield prospect Lastings Milledge at the time, scuttling any potential deal. Texas' current asking price, according to another source, is "a lot more than that."

Mets sources wouldn't characterize their interest level yesterday, but it is no secret the slugging Rangers would like to upgrade their rotation. And the Mets could have a surplus with injured starter Steve Trachsel slated to be activated shortly after the deadline. There also have been rumblings in recent days that the Mets are considering obtaining Dodgers lefty Odalis Perez, whom they briefly pursued as a free agent last winter.

More recently, the Astros and Twins have been in dialogue about Soriano, though contact with Houston faded, according to one AL source. And the Twins recently obtained Bret Boone.

The Mets also attempted to obtain Soriano, who has 24 homers and 66 RBI, early in the 2004 season.

I'm not surprised to hear that the Rangers are asking "a lot more than that." It's a seller's market. Players won't come cheap.

Yancy Street Gang Jul 25 2005 07:29 PM

And here's what the Fort Worth Star-Telegram is saying:

Soriano could be involved in Mets deal

By T.R. SULLIVANStar-Telegram Staff Writer

ARLINGTON - The Rangers and the New York Mets engaged in serious talks concerning second baseman Alfonso Soriano this week.

Right now a deal doesn't appear imminent because the Rangers want three players and at the top of their list is outfielder Lastings Milledge, a Double A outfielder and a former No. 1 pick.

The Rangers have not been actively shopping Soriano but are willing to listen, and the Mets have been interested in the All-Star second baseman for some time. The Rangers are also drifting toward the selling mode now that they're one game below .500.

The Mets have been using utility infielder Miguel Cairo at second base while Kaz Matsui is on the disabled list with a bruised knee. Matsui has been a disappointment anyway, hitting only .234, and the Mets went into Sunday's game eighth in the National League in runs scored.

They are also interested in the Dodgers' Jeff Kent.

Milledge was hitting .302 with 18 stolen bases in 62 games in Class A before being promoted to Double A on July 11. The Rangers asked about him earlier this season and were turned down.

The Rangers' ambitious demands are keeping a deal from getting made. Sources said the talks are hotter than both teams are letting on, but there is still no guarantee that it could get done. The position of both sides could change as the deadline nears.

Rotblatt Jul 25 2005 07:48 PM

Please for the love of God don't sign Soriano.

Elster88 Jul 25 2005 08:44 PM

It all depends on the deal. I wouldn't touch a single player in the farm system, but I'd trade one of the excess starters for him.

TheOldMole Jul 25 2005 08:46 PM

I can't believe, with starting pitching at the premium it always is at, that the Mets don't have what it takes to make a good deal.

metirish Jul 25 2005 09:16 PM

Phil Nevin rejects trade to Baltimore.

soupcan Jul 25 2005 10:27 PM

There was a guy in my fraternity named Phil Nevins.

I'd do Soriano for Zambrano and/or Heilmann/Seo. Would not give up Milledge for him.

I'd give up Glavine and/or Hernandez for Shoppach.

If those names aren't enough to get those deals done (one or the other not BOTH deals) then I'm cool with standing pat.

Elster88 Jul 26 2005 12:27 AM

I'd rather have Kent than Soriano. He can play first for the rest of this year, and we can try to get rid of Kazuo (sorry Kaz) in the offseason, and then put him at second for next year. We can go out and get a big bat for first for next year.

Gives us some breathing room to try to get rid of our logjam in the middle infield in the offseason. Instead of either having to clear out that mess before the deadline (or being forced to have two second basemen on the bench), we can put Kent at first and still improve our offense. I guess I'm less into this if Kaz is really out for the season.

Of course, I still wouldn't give up young talent or minor leaguers. I would spend more of Fred's money though.

Johnny Dickshot Jul 26 2005 07:17 AM

Let's trade for all of Soupy's frat brothers: Phil Nevins, Alfonso Sorianos, and Kelly Shoppachs. Then we'll kick their ass in foosball after the game.

Rotblatt Jul 26 2005 08:02 AM

By all accounts, Soriano shouldn't be playing 2B any more, he's going to cost around 9M next year, and he hasn't been able to hit away from Arlington the last two years. Yes, he hit 16 HR away from Arlington last year, but he also batted like .240 with a .290 OBP.

It just doesn't make sense to me to target him at all, regardless of what we give up for him. Well, Glavine for Soriano might be okay . . .

I've heard Petit for Baez rumors, which makes me want to scream. Our pen isn't that bad. If we can't find a 1B or a young catcher, we should sit still.

Edgy DC Jul 26 2005 08:16 AM

Improving the pen seems to be what people do around this time.

I know it'll make you scream. I want it not at all also.

Just be ready for it to happen.

I'm thinking it's more likely that they'll trade a minor league outfielder for a veteran reliever.

Elster88 Jul 26 2005 09:05 AM

metirish wrote:Phil Nevin rejects trade to Baltimore.

Is this official? On ESPN.com they were wondering how long it would take him to make up his mind.

smg58 Jul 26 2005 10:20 AM

Yep it's official.

Yes, the Padres probably would take Matsui for Nevin and eat the payroll difference.

No, Nevin wouldn't come here either.

Honestly, except possibly for Jason Schmidt, I see nobody available worth expending good bargaining chips for, and the Mets need to move starting pitching more than they need to acquire it anyway. The ballpark shift would make Dunn so-so and Soriano flat-out mediocre, so let somebody else empty their farm system while we look for bargains. As for Sean Casey, my gut tells me we'll get as much from Mintky the rest of the way, and finding next year's first baseman can wait till the offseason.

Edgy DC Jul 26 2005 10:27 AM

Not advocating, but is anybody talking about Mike Sweeney.

I'd rather have a lefty and one who walked more, but maybe he's an option?

Kansas City has traded off a whole generation of young sluggers, it seems. They're left with their white guy who wears a C on his shoulder. I imagine they're not in a rush to move him for less than the package of prospects I don't want the Mets to think about offering.

metirish Jul 26 2005 10:28 AM

Can he stay healthy?, I think that might be a problem ,plus he makes a lot of money, I think.

duan Jul 26 2005 11:40 AM

Will Carroll's Latest update on Soriano

"Posted Tuesday, July 26, 2005, 10:28 a.m.: Jamey Newberg breaks down the rumor mill on Alfonso Soriano nicely. The Rangers are still giving a lot of 'no comment' responses, but the current consensus is that they're asking for Lastings Milledge, Yusmeiro Petit, and would love to get Mike Cameron into the deal somehow. This trade will percolate a while before any real action. The Twins are also inquiring about Soriano as they get ready to move on from the Bret Boone experiment."

In all seriousness, Petit & Milledge just seems WAY too much.

Yancy Street Gang Jul 26 2005 11:49 AM

This morning the Daily News was indicating that Soriano talks were breaking down because the Rangers were asking too much.

If that's true, I'm glad the Mets are showing restraint.

Johnny Dickshot Jul 26 2005 11:54 AM

Here's the article duan reported Will Carroll reported on. Good job tracking down all the rumors...

07/26/05

The Newberg Report: July 26, 2005By Jamey Newberg

THE NEWBERG REPORT

For a guy who is commonly speculated to be dealing with an attentiondeficit, Alfonso Soriano sure isn't letting this avalanche of traderumblings distract him one bit.

Soriano is certainly a special enough offensive player that he was going tobe among the game's more attractive trade targets if Texas decided to shophim, regardless of what kind of run he was on. But the way he's rakingright now, he's undoubtedly the top available hitter on the market.

Sitting in baseball's top 10 in total bases for the season, Soriano ishitting .293/.341/.524 in July, and he's not only reaching base at a greaterrate than in any other month but also on pace to have his fewest strikeoutsfor a month this season. In the Rangers' 12 games since the Break, he'shitting .347/.396/.673 with four bombs and 12 RBI.

And the way the Rangers have played in those same 12 games -- three wins andnine losses (seven to Oakland) -- has sort of answered the big questionfacing the team at the Break: whether to be buyers or sellers. Texas hasgone from chasing three teams in the Wild Card race, just a couple gamesback, to having a better record than only three American League teams. Ifthe season were to end today, the Rangers would be involved in a coin flipfor the 11th pick in the draft.

There's still more than two months to play, and stranger things havehappened, but the trade deadline is only five days away, and the Wild Cardera has naturally reduced the number of teams deciding in July to look tothe following season. The Rangers, as I've proposed, are in a position totake advantage of the market and sell at a premium. And if the reportscoming out of the East Coast are to be believed, that's exactly what JohnHart is trying to do.

My proposal two weeks ago, when asked by a local writer to come up with arealistic deal for Soriano that I would like to see Texas make, I suggestedthe Mets would be the ideal trade partner, and that I'd ask for outfielderLastings Milledge and righthander Yusmeiro Petit.

I'd add Adrian Gonzalez to the deal if New York would include Mike Cameron,and if necessary I'd probably throw in Juan Dominguez: Soriano, Gonzalez,and Dominguez for Cameron, Milledge, and Petit.

According to media accounts the last few days, the Mets seem in fact to bethe club most likely to step up to land Soriano -- and the whispers thatsecond baseman Kaz Matsui's knee injury may be so bad that he won't returnthis year would seemingly make the likelihood even greater.

Here are the latest reports:

1. T.R. Sullivan and Kathleen O'Brien, Fort Worth Star-Telegram: Sullivanwrote on Sunday that Texas wants a big league player and two qualityprospects, including Milledge. O'Brien wrote today that Hart said there's"nothing going on." She adds that the Mets aren't willing to come close tothe Rangers' proposal and though they might make righthander Victor Zambranoavailable, Texas would want Milledge and possible a second prospect added tothe package.

2. Evan Grant, Dallas Morning News: Hart isn't looking to trade Soriano, butNew York sent a scout to Arlington to watch Soriano over the weekend.(Thought: It would stand to reason that the Rangers' decision not only tocall Gonzalez up but start him once at first base in the A's series hadsomething to do with New York's presence.) Grant suggests that a deal couldpossibly yield some combination of Zambrano, righthander Aaron Heilman, andPetit.

3. Peter Gammons and Jayson Stark, ESPN: The Rangers want Cameron, Heilman,Milledge, and one other top prospect.

4. David Lennon, Newsday: Texas is asking for Milledge and Petit, but thelikelihood of that deal getting done is "increasingly doubtful."

5. Dan Graziano, Newark Star-Ledger: The Rangers want three or four players.A trade is "increasingly unlikely."

6. Adam Rubin and Peter Botte, New York Daily News: The Rangers, who askedfor Milledge earlier this season, are now demanding "a lot more than that,"making a deal "increasingly doubtful." (But a weekend story in thepublication said the Mets' interest in Soriano is "hotter than peoplethink.") Houston and Minnesota have also asked about Soriano.

8. Mark Hale, New York Post: Texas is insisting on shortstop Jose Reyes aspart of the trade, but New York won't deal him. Post columnist Joel Shermannotes that Soriano might not be a terribly good fit in Shea Stadium, apitcher's park, as he is hitting .322 with a .678 slugging percentage atAmeriquest Field and just .230/.382 on the road. Those are even moredramatic splits than he had in 2004, though he was far better at home thenas well: .317/.526 at home vs. .244/.444 on the road.

9. Lee Jenkins, New York Times: Heilman or Seo could be part of the Mets'offer, and they could also send Miguel Cairo or Marlon Anderson back to giveTexas a stopgap second baseman.

I'm on record as suggesting that I think Texas would be better off movingSoriano, but it's not because I don't value him as a player. To thecontrary: I think he can bring a healthy return in trade because he's sovaluable. And while I cringe at his occasional defensive lapses and hisantics at the plate (regularly admiring shots that end up staying in thepark), there's been nobody I'd rather have at the plate in a big spot formost of this season, and he's been outstanding at the double play pivot allyear.

But Soriano will command somewhere in the $10 million range from his clubnext year, with the leverage of his arbitration eligibility, and I'd like tosee Texas use that money on pitching and possibly a run-producingoutfielder, giving Ian Kinsler the second base job. Will Kinsler produce atSoriano levels offensively? Absolutely not. But he's just about ready andshould hold his own as a rookie, and if the Rangers wisely spend the moneythey save by moving Soriano, this team can be more competitive. In myopinion.

I love the idea of adding Milledge to this system. He'd be one of our toptwo or three position player prospects instantly.

If Texas can put together any deal with the Mets that brings the clubCameron or Milledge, I'm going to be satisfied. And with five days leftbefore the conventional deadline, and Omar Minaya on the other end, I'mhappy to see my team playing hardball. We've got the best hitter on thetrade market, and the Mets don't always do the smartest thing.

San Diego's Phil Nevin nixed a deal that would have sent him to Baltimorefor Oriole righthander Sidney Ponson, reviving speculation that the Rangersmight trade Richard Hidalgo or a mid-level prospect to Baltimore for Ponson.

According to Sullivan, Mets catcher Mike Piazza knows his days behind theplate are numbered and might be interested in coming to Texas to hit.Sullivan also speculates that the Rangers might be interested in bringingAtlanta righthander John Thomson back in 2006.

Gammons writes that the Cubs, Rangers, and Yankees are in on Coloradooutfielder Eric Byrnes.

The Detroit News reports that the Rangers are interested in Tiger lefthanderNate Robertson.

St. Louis remains interested in David Dellucci.

Kenny Rogers pitches tonight for Texas. John Hudgins pitches for Oklahoma.C.J. Wilson pitches for Frisco, followed by John Danks.

Oklahoma outfielder Will Smith was placed on the disabled list.

Clinton righthander Michael Schlact put up this dazzling line last night: 17groundouts and one flyout in 6.2 frames. He improved to 8-5, 4.32 byearning the LumberKing win.

Laynce Nix will miss the rest of the season so he can have surgery on hisnon-throwing shoulder, the one he injured in a collision with the wall lastsummer. I'll get into the ramifications of the Nix development next time.

Unless there's a Soriano trade to discuss.

metirish Jul 26 2005 11:57 AM

Good report...

] love the idea of adding Milledge to this system. He'd be one of our top two or three position player prospects instantly.

yeah and that's why the Mets better keep him

]We've got the best hitter on the trade market, and the Mets don't always do the smartest thing.

Ouch..

Edgy DC Jul 26 2005 12:04 PM

Milledge and Petit? Pass, pass, pass!

Elster88 Jul 26 2005 12:05 PM

]but New York sent a scout to Arlington to watch Soriano over the weekend.

Is this really necessary with MLB TV?

MFS62 Jul 26 2005 01:56 PM
Something In the Works?

Omar was supposed to have come on the Mike Francessa show at 1:05 today.(WFAN)The interview was then rescheduled to after 2:00 PM

That has now been pushed back to after 4:00 PM.

Will we hear a deal has been completed today?

Later

Vic Sage Jul 26 2005 02:36 PM

Soriano has approximately a .700+ OPS away from Texas over his last 1 1/2 seasons (500+ road ABs).

To put that in context, thats about what we've gotten from Kaz Matsui. Sori will probably run less and hit a few more dingers but overall production would be in a similar range, based on Sori's road numbers.

How stupid do you have to be to pursue a guy like this, given that his overall career has been in steady decline, and he's a non-hustling PITA to boot?

I guess we may soon find out...

Johnny Dickshot Jul 26 2005 02:42 PM

Vic, come and climb on the Ray Durham Bandwagon with me. The guy is only due to be paid thru the end of this year (with an option), is an above-average offensive player, only his skill is OBP and not slugging (so much -- he's got 21 doubles already). I'm the only guy in the whole city who wants him, so what's wrong with me?

Rotblatt Jul 26 2005 02:49 PM

I sincerely hope not.

Where's the spin machine for Cameron? Cam's only 3 years older than Soriano, plays gold glove defense and is putting up dominant numbers for a CF in a pitcher's park.

Right now, Cam's road OPS is .959. Taking into account the fact that Cam can actually hit outside of a hitter's park, and IMO it's a good bet that Cam at Arlington will outperform Soriano at Shea over the next few years--probably with ease.

Cameron for Soriano straight up--despite all of Soriano's flaws--might be a decent deal, if you ask me. But once you throw in Milledge AND one of Heilman and Seo, it becomes a disaster of Kazmirian proportions.

I fucking hate the trade deadline.

Rotblatt Jul 26 2005 03:15 PM

Oh, and I'd be okay with Durham, depending on what we gave up for him. I'd still rather see us promote Lambin or Hernandez, though, and deal one of our pitchers for a young catcher or first baseman before the deadline.

And another thing--dealing with Texas at all is retarded. They're not a contender, which means they don't NEED to do a deal. That lessens our leverage considerably. The Sox, the Orioles, the Yankees--these are the teams we should be dealing with because they all have serious, short-term needs for pitching, which we happen to have in spades. That means that any of those three are probably willing to give up more than Texas for one of our pitchers. And the Yankees would surely give up more for Cam than Texas would.

Personally, I'd rather have H. Matsui than Soriano, and I'm willing to be we could get him for Cameron, Milledge & Heilman.

And how about Boston? We could probably get Damon & Shoppach for the same Soriano package, since they need relievers & Damon's a free agent after this season. Granted, we have to stick Damon in RF if we didn't flip him for prospects, but we'd have a great lead-off hitter and would get a supplemental draft pick after he signs as a free agent next season. AND we'd have Piazza's heir apparent.

I'm not saying I like any of these deals I'm proposing, but I DO think they help us a hell of a lot more than Soriano would.

duan Jul 26 2005 03:20 PM

Carroll's latest update;

"The Mets have been reluctant to give up two of their best prospects to get Alfonso Soriano, knowing they'll need to fill some gaps in the off-season. That knowledge let the Reds stick their nose into a possible deal. According to two sources with knowledge of the discussions, the Reds would send Sean Casey and his contract to the Mets along with Soriano. The Rangers would then give the Reds one or two B level prospects such as Juan Dominguez or John Hudgins."

put on the record for saying That'd a massive fucking gamble that would be a really, really, bad idea.

ABG Jul 26 2005 03:23 PM

Duan--I don't follow what we'd give up in that deal.

Yancy Street Gang Jul 26 2005 03:25 PM

But who are the Mets giving up in that deal?

Is Soriano a freebie? The way it's worded the Rangers are getting Sean Casey for two prospects and Soriano. The Reds, who don't want Soriano's contract, give him to the Mets for nothing.

Good deal for the Mets. Good deal for the Reds, assuming they like the two B-level prospects better than they do Casey. But it sounds like a crazy deal for Texas.

Either I'm misreading this, or something's missing here.

Elster88 Jul 26 2005 03:48 PM

I'm dying here. Yancy's analysis made me crack up. I like it too, but I also think there are a few details missing. Maybe Texas wants Ishii?

rpackrat Jul 26 2005 03:58 PM

I'm not averse to getting Soriano, if the price is right. His road OPS causes some concern, but this is a guy who put up great numbers at Yankee Stadium, which is not a great park for righthanded hitters. But any deal for Soriano should not include any of Reyes, Milledge, or Petit, all of whom have been mentioned.

Durham also would be a decent pickup. His terrific OBP would make him a nice fit at the top of the order though, like Soriano, he's subpar defensively.

Kent has too much bad history with the Mets.

ABG Jul 26 2005 04:00 PM

Of all the players even briefly mentioned, I think Kent is the best fit. He'll play a fairly average 2b or 1b and be a top-notch middle of the order hitter. Say what you will about his attitude, he consistently produces and his teams generally win.

He's relatively old and expensive and playing for a team that is out of contention. Hopefully he'll come at a significantly cheaper cost than Soriano.

Elster88 Jul 26 2005 04:09 PM

]Kent has too much bad history with the Mets.

He did have bad times when he was here, but is anyone who was around then even remotely involved with the club? Seems like it could be a clean slate. Only the dickhead boo birds would give him a hard time.

I never understood the particulars of the bad history between Kent and the Mets and their fans. His sins to me were (1) he played well for some bad teams, (2) he continued to improve after the Mets unwisely traded him, (3) he had something of a child molester moustache, and (3) he didn't like being hazed because he felt he had already been through that with the Blue Jays.

Besides, the veteran guys hazing him were mostly players Met fans never warmed to anyhow.

Since leaving the Mets, we've learned that (1) the guy is surly (many a fine player has been), (2) Barry Bonds' personality can stick in his craw (get in line), and (4) he lied about wrecking his bike in the offseason.

That last one is all I see that's an issue for me. So you tell him not to do that no more and hope he doesn't, and enforce the out in his contract if he does.

Elster88 Jul 26 2005 04:21 PM

I agree with all that, but by "bad times" I was referring to problems with management, too. Didn't he and Dallas make a bad couple?

Omar/ WFAN update.No deal to report.He said the Mets were in the hunt, but are not in just an '05 mindset.He also said that he would not overpay for a name player (Soriano?) but the team needs to add offense.He supported Beltran and is sure he'll improve over the rest of the season.yadda yadda

Typical GM-speak.

EDIT: About Kent. He was an Amos Otis redux - a player who the Mets tried to move to third base to fill that historic chasm. When they couldn't (Otis) or didn't want to (Kent) they were traded away.When the Mets got Kent, there was some criticism of his defensive play at second. So I checked. When he was in the Jays' system, he had twice led his minor league in fielding and DPs converted by second basemen (the only statistics available at that time).

So he wasn't the second coming of Bill Mazeroski. So what? But he played the position at least as well as Todd Bellhorn and Todd Walker do today, and you had to like his bat.

But when they moved him to third, his clubhouse "personality" must have escalated and he may have walked around with a case of the RA. But we'll never know if his clubhouse problems were with his teammates (to paraphrase the bakery ad- nobody doesn't hate Barry Bonds), or with the press. As someone noted above, that doesn't mean the guy can't play.

Later

Edgy DC Jul 26 2005 04:37 PM

]Didn't he and Dallas make a bad couple?

You know, I didn't look so good next to Dallas Green myself.

A team keeping Chris Woodward, Marlon Anderson, Jose Offerman, and Gerald Williams on their bench, but keeping Victor Diaz, Eric Valent and Brian Daubach in the minors needs to add offense.

Rotblatt Jul 26 2005 05:09 PM

It's strange, but I think the problem is our bench has been too good. I mean, Anderson, Woody & Offerman have all been really solid pinch hitters. None of them possesses much power, but they're all hitting for average--Woody at .311 (.803 OPS), Anderson at .297 (.714) & Offerman at .320 (.786). So no one has played themselves out of a bench spot, which means we're keeping Valent, Diaz & Daubach, all of whom has more power but might not adjust to life on the bench as well, down at AAA . . .

I'd really like us to move one of those three. One of them might be enough to tip the scales on a pitcher for young hitter trade, and it would free up space for a power bat off the bench.

Edgy DC Jul 26 2005 05:12 PM

Five days, seven hours remain.. Still no announced deals, which makes me more worried.

By the way, I like the notiion to restrain teams from announcing deals that are still pending the consent of player with the right to reject.

KC Jul 26 2005 06:20 PM

I think I counted nine 'that being said' in the WFAN interview this afternoon,and I missed some of it.

I hope something major and bizzare happens that's so lopsided that everyonewill have to just say, "wow, we really screwed _____________".

Otherwise the deadline can come and go without anything happening and Icould care less.

duan Jul 26 2005 06:23 PM

hey sorry about being unclear earlier, but i was quoting direct from Carroll, how I read it was .....

the mets were unhappy giving up two prospects for Soriano when they had places to fill next year, but would give up two prospects for Soriano & Casey, as that would fill 1b for next year.

I could of read it wrong.

duan Jul 26 2005 06:35 PM

how's about acquiring Roberto Petagaine; not exactly sexy i know, but a left handed power bat that should be able to be had for some AAA with ML experience pitching (do you hear me JW Seo?)

KC Jul 26 2005 10:49 PM

Why is there two trade deadline threads started by the same poster?

I thought there was an edict?

Edgy DC Jul 26 2005 11:23 PM

Very different themes.

Very different.

Almost no overlap. Practically a different language.

smg58 Jul 27 2005 10:33 AM

I liked the article. The writer seems to have a very good grasp of the situation, and if I were a Ranger fan I'd demand that much for Soriano too, because a few people out there (mistakenly) think he's worth that much.

Durham has a player option for next season, which he'd be crazy not to pick up, so it would be more than a two-month commitment. That's the thing with him, Casey, and a couple of other players: the Mets have to be sure they'll still want them next year before emptying their wallets and farm system. The money we would owe Casey and Soriano would make it difficult to do much else in the offseason, especially if we still have Glavine and Matsui.

Our pen has ben a LOT better lately, so barring a good pitcher becoming available fairly cheaply, I'm not sure there's anything to be gained there either.

Johnny Dickshot Jul 27 2005 10:42 AM

I thought Durham's option was a team option. That changes things for sure.

Really, all I want right now for the Mets is to play somebody at second base who's better than Cairo/Anderson. If that means calling up the kid from Norfolk, that's fine, or if it means a trade, it doesn't have to be an earth-shattering one.

Otherwise, if there's opportunity to set up next year's group now we obviously should look at it.

Rotblatt Jul 27 2005 11:20 AM

What JD said.

Let's STAY PUT right NOW!!!!

and NOW!

and NOW!

(you get the idea.)

smg58 Jul 27 2005 09:16 PM

I'm getting my info from http://www.mlb4u.com/teampages.html , which is really detailed but I can't guarantee its accuracy.

MFS62 Jul 28 2005 01:46 PM

From Rotoworld:

]Alfonso Soriano - 2B - TEX

At one point yesterday Alfonso Soriano got a call from his agent telling him to pack his bags and that he was traded to the Mets. Only moments later did he receive another call telling him that the deal hit a snag. The Rangers want pitcher Aaron Heilman and AA pitcher Yusmeiro Petit, but the Mets want to substitute Victor Zambrano for Heilman. Regardless, it's looking more likely Soriano will be headed to the Mets this weekend. Jul. 28 - 1:21 pm et Source: Dallas Morning News "

Later

metsmarathon Jul 28 2005 01:57 PM

yak. me no likey. i'd rather include heilmann than zambrano, imo. granted, i'd rather include nobody for reasons stated elsewhere by posters aplenty.

imagine the cries of metfandom if soriano came here for the price of, effectively, scott kazmir and a very promising future pitcher, and then played at shea like he's played on the road this year.

sheesh. there'd be a riot.

can we get a first baseman instead? i mean, its the position at which we're more sorely in need of an upgrade, isnt it?

Elster88 Jul 28 2005 01:57 PM

DAMMIT! LEAVE THE FARM SYSTEM ALONE!

I'm surprised that the Mets would rather deal Zambrano than Heilman.

Yancy Street Gang Jul 28 2005 02:02 PM

That has the ring of falsehood.

I don't think Petit and Heilman brings back Soriano.

I also think the Mets would prefer that deal to Petit and Zambrano.

Edgy DC Jul 28 2005 02:05 PM

MFS, did you clip that from the Dallas Morning News or another fan site?

MFS62 Jul 28 2005 02:08 PM

="Edgy DC"]MFS, did you clip that from the Dallas Morning News or another fan site?

Since it gave the reference, I clipped it from another site. There was no link provided.

Later

Rotblatt Jul 28 2005 02:16 PM

Motherfucker.

I don't think I can go through another razing of our farm system.

And what the fuck are we going to do with Keppinger, Lambin & Hernandez if we get Soriano? We'll have no leverage in trying to trade them because all the positions they could play--2B, SS, 3B--will be blocked indefinitely.

If this goes through, I may be forced to agree with Sal that the Mets are all about image and don't give a shit about putting the best possible team on the field. Which is kind of ironic, cause I got the impression that Sal thought a deal for Soriano might be kinda okay.

I really hope this guy doesn't know what he's talking about and is just trying to sell some papers . . .

Rotblatt Jul 28 2005 03:02 PM

Soriano & Cameron evaluations via BP (free articles for the next few days! Check it out!):

]Alfonso Soriano, Rangers

PECOTA anticipated an offensive resurgence for Soriano this season, and he has made good on that promise, posting a .282/.316/.546 batting line that is an effective dead ringer for his .301/.348/.538 projection after accounting for the leaguewide offensive decline. Soriano's speed-power combination ought to age relatively well, whatever his problems with pitch selection.

But the problem has never been Soriano's bat. According to Clay Davenport's defensive statistics, Soriano has already cost his team some 20 runs in the field this year relative to a league-average second baseman, which goes a long way toward mitigating his 28.7 VORP. Defensive statistics, of course, are always something of a speculative exercise, but in this case there is good reason to give them a lot of weight, as Soriano has a long history of poor defensive performances.

To the extent that defensive statistics have their problems, they are mostly related to matters of context: perhaps the second baseman's numbers are impacted by the shortstop's, or the starting pitcher's, and so forth. But Soriano posted poor defensive numbers in New York, in a pitchers' park with a good pitching staff and a poor double play partner, and he's posted poor defensive numbers in Texas, in a hitters' park with a poor pitching staff and a good double play partner. His defense stinks, and between that and the offense-inflating environment of Arlington, its no wonder that the sharp knifes in Rangers management have been trying to move him virtually since the day he arrived in the Metroplex.

]Mike Cameron, Mets

Cameron's name comes up more often in blogs than on ESPN, which probably means that there's a fair amount of wishcasting going on; he's been an underrated player for a long time. The concern here is whether his injury history is starting to take a toll on his defense. Cameron's fielding has rated some four runs worse than league average this year, this in spite of the fact that he's played the vast bulk of his year in right field.

Our ability to forecast defensive performance is still very primitive, but my guess is that he's at best a run or two better than a league average defensive player in center field; 32 is about the age at which a lot of peripheral skills tend to decline, with or without an injury history. He's still a considerably more worthwhile player than someone like Randy Winn, but some of the advantage that a smart GM may have been hoping to arbitrage out is evaporating. The other concern is that this is likely going to need to be a win-now-for-win-now swap. It's easy to mock Omar Minaya's brashness, but our estimate is that the Mets still have a 26 percent chance of making the playoffs.

Elster88 Jul 28 2005 03:09 PM

ESPN.com has the same thing that MFS's article had, plus a second paragraph.

]Second helpingJul 28 - According to Newark Star-Ledger, the Rangers have decided to move Alfonso Soriano, and the Mets are working hard to get him. Trade discussions have focused on Mets right-hander Aaron Heilman and Double-A Binghampton right-hander Yusmeiro Petit, but the Mets might prefer to deal right-hander Victor Zambrano rather than Heilman.

Another scenario that surfaced involved a three-way deal involving the Mets, Rangers and Reds that would send both Soriano and Sean Casey to the Mets with a package of prospects going to the other two clubs, Newsday reports. The Mets would assume considerable salary in that trade, not only for this season but 2006 as well. Soriano already earns $7.5 million this year and will get a big raise through arbitration. Casey is currently making $7.8 million and the Reds have picked up his $8.5-million option for next year.

Elster88 Jul 28 2005 03:12 PM

According to the Newark Star-Ledger, both the Yankees and Mets are likely to take a look at reliever Ricky Bottalico, who was designated for assignment by Milwaukee on Wednesday. Bottallico is 2-2 with a 4.54 ERA in 41 2/3 innings this season.

ScarletKnight41 Jul 28 2005 03:21 PM

Bottalico?

Been there. Done that. Bought the t-shirt.

Let's pass this time, shall we?

Bret Sabermetric Jul 28 2005 03:28 PM

Rotblatt wrote:

If this goes through, I may be forced to agree with Sal that the Mets are all about image and don't give a shit about putting the best possible team on the field. Which is kind of ironic, cause I got the impression that Sal thought a deal for Soriano might be kinda okay. .

Uh-uh. I'm agin it, if there's prospects involved, because I don't think this team needs a minor tune-up to be a serious competitor and because Soriano gives me the creeps. What this team needs is for about three or four farmhands to come up, stay up, and be superior players. You really can't do that if your program involcves swapping out your number one pick every year.

Funny, though, if we'd kept Kazmir, I don't think I'd be seeing it quite that way. Then itwould be a one-time-only kinda thing and I'd evaluate it on its merits. The merits are dubious enough, but endorsing a policy of swapping out your farmhands either suggests you don't draft very well, and are looking to get past your drafting errors, or you want to churn, churn, churn draft picks, which strikes me as exceptionally ill-advised.

metsmarathon Jul 28 2005 03:30 PM

you have a bottalico t-shirt? that's wicked-cool!

seawolf17 Jul 28 2005 04:14 PM

From BP.com:

]Thursday, July 28, 2:35 p.m. ET: ESPN 103.3 in Dallas was reporting this morning that Alfonso Soriano had been dealt for Mike Cameron and Lastings Milledge. As yet, there's been no additional confirmation, so I don't think this deal is as close as our friends in Dallas think it is. With that said, it does appear that there's fire behind this smoke. Tom Hicks may have said he doesn't want to trade Soriano, but I think the billionaire would be willing to make a deal he didn't want if it made sense. The Rangers are also stalled on Sidney Ponson. Apparently, Baltimore doesn't want to absorb nearly as much salary as Texas would like them to do.

Larry Lucchino confirmed that Manny Ramirez did ask to be traded. According to reader M.D. "it's an annual event. Like Bastille Day." Ramirez will not be traded now, of course, but the Mets covet the slugger openly and if the Red Sox put Ramirez back on waivers, they'll claim him.

The Brewers are in the top 10 of team WXRL. After designating Ricky Bottalico for assignment, that means their bullpen is down to just one player who makes more than the league minimum. It's funny that both New York teams, with bullpens costing ten times as much and performing considerably worse, will consider adding a guy like Bottalico. Doug Melvin is underrated.

If Manny's available, you go get him. THE END.

Elster88 Jul 28 2005 04:25 PM

If we get Manny, then I would do the Cameron for Soriano trade.

'Course, it has to go the other way around.

duan Jul 28 2005 06:27 PM

y'know who'd be a neat enough fit?Placido Palonco, can play second, fill in at third or short in a pinch and has excellent on base skills that could be used really well in the first or second slot in the lineup.

The Tigers got him for Uggy Urbina, you'd have to think that you could come up with a reasonable price for him.

Spacemans Bong Jul 28 2005 06:53 PM

duan wrote:y'know who'd be a neat enough fit?Placido Palonco, can play second, fill in at third or short in a pinch and has excellent on base skills that could be used really well in the first or second slot in the lineup.

The Tigers got him for Uggy Urbina, you'd have to think that you could come up with a reasonable price for him.

The Tigers want to keep him, though. That seems to be the problem.

I don't know about Manny. See if you can get the Red Sox to pick up some of that deal. It sucks, and I think Manny's sliding downhill.

MFS62 Jul 28 2005 07:22 PM

While we're waiting for a real deal to be announced, this is something Joel Sherman of the NY Post wrote a few years ago. I had to re-type it because it was an early edition space filler and the link was gone before I had a chance to copy it. So I didn't include the reasons he gave for each move (rebuilding, salary budget, etc.) and may have gotten some of the players wrong.

"ESPN Radio talked to Rob Neyer, trade was inevitable, could be announced as early as tomorrow, Mets are just asking for a bigger prospect than the Rangers are willing to add to the Soriano deal, but the deal will get done. Texas wants money from the Mets and will ask for less talent should the Mets agree. Many sources have indicated to me that the Mets are still trying to lower the price, but will settle for Milledge within the hour.

The Mets are also in hot pursuit of Huff, which is why they aren't selling pitching. They feel Tampa like Heilman and Yusmeiro Petit."

Now, if we give up Milledge and the cash for Soriano, I don't want Petit going for Huff and Baez. We'd be better off IMO sitting pat there, keeping our prospect, and I think Heilman can be just as effective from the pen as Baez.

Also, I feel the need to throw a WATP in here. If we do wrap up Soriano, and if Boston tries to shop Manny, we could try Soriano and Kameron as a package (one not involving Petit, Gaby Hernandez, Bannister, etc.) for Ramirez and the catcher stuck behind Varitek who's name i can never remember. Boston's second base situation is pretty miserable, and I'm in favor of using someone like Anderson Hernandez at second.

I think Floyd's shown enough athleticism to play right this year, and that would be one helluva scary outfield at the plate.

Rotblatt Jul 28 2005 09:05 PM

Heilman and Petit for Huff is a steep price, especially given how mediocre Huff has been this year. The difference between Valent and Huff isn't nearly big enough to warrant a trade like that--assuming that Valent is back in his low .800 OPS form.

]If we do wrap up Soriano, and if Boston tries to shop Manny, we could try Soriano and Kameron as a package (one not involving Petit, Gaby Hernandez, Bannister, etc.) for Ramirez and the catcher stuck behind Varitek who's name i can never remember. Boston's second base situation is pretty miserable, and I'm in favor of using someone like Anderson Hernandez at second.

I think Floyd's shown enough athleticism to play right this year, and that would be one helluva scary outfield at the plate.

That would be a scary good outfield, but we'd need a lot of cash back from Boston for that deal.

I'd just as soon try and get Shoppach for Heilman or Hernandez and stick with the OF we have.

Elster88 Jul 28 2005 09:30 PM

I'd rather have Huff than Soriano. I really don't think Valent can carry Huff's jock.

That's just a lot to give up, even for a dominant closer. Any chance we could convince them to give up Shoppach & Youkilis for Hernandez? They'd be giving up less and still be getting a pretty darn good relief pitcher--as a matter of fact, Hernandez's numbers are pretty close to Wagners, minus the saves . . .

Meanwhile, we could put Youkilis in at 1B or even try him at 2B for the rest of the season. We'd probably want to move him for a real 1B or 2B in the offseason, but he'd be an upgrade for us offensively at either slot in the interim.

We'd have to hope that Padilla, Heilman & Bell could pick up the slack, of course, but stranger things have happened--like a 40-year old journeyman putting up the same line as a 34-year old ace closer . . .

Edgy DC Jul 29 2005 02:59 PM

Problem with dealing one for three: One excellent guy is harder to find than three good guys.

Problem with dealing three for one: One guy leaves all your health eggs in one basket. One tendon pops and you lose your whoe package. Could you imagine a single injury (a bizarre collission) taking out all of Arroyo, Shoppach, and Youkilis? An injury to Wagner after trading them for him would effectively do that.

MFS62 Jul 29 2005 03:57 PM

]Could you imagine a single injury (a bizarre collission) taking out all of Arroyo, Shoppach, and Youkilis?

Yes, on a wind-blown infield popup.

This should probably be in a separate post)What scares me is Omar's penchant for making BIG deals/ trading name players. Soome have been good, some haven't worked out so well. I'm not nominating him for MENSA just yet.

Later

Elster88 Jul 29 2005 04:01 PM

MFS62 wrote:What scares me is Omar's penchant for making BIG deals/ trading name players. Soome have been good, some haven't worked out so well. I'm not nominating him for MENSA just yet.

No strikes on the "big" moves so far as a Met. In fact I have no problems with any of his moves thus far, unless failing to get Delgado counts.

I was very anti-Pedro at the beginning of the year, and anti-Bert. In Omar I trust.

Rotblatt Jul 29 2005 04:53 PM

I almost ignored my own rule by posting this in the AP MOTT but decorum prevailed. From SoSH (who have let unregistered ruffians like me back in, thank God!):

]Guy just called in WEEI, 3 way deal, 90% chance of going down, says his source is one of the top 2-3 baseball guys in one of the teams involved; didn't give explicit details, but here's the gist:

Sox give up Manny, Shoppach, Embree, and Hanley RamirizDRays give up Huff and BaezMets give up Cameron, Petit, two prospects

Sox get Cameron, Huff, and BaezDRays get Mets prospects and Hanley RamirizMets get Manny and Embree

Why on earth would we want Embree? And would we really let Shoppach & Huff pass through our fingers? Wouldn't H. Ramirez, Petit & 2 unnamed Mets prospects be enough in return for the D-Rays? I'd think we could grab at least one of Huff or Shoppach . . .

Boston would be getting a pretty raw deal, too. Huff's slumping just as badly as Mueller & Millar and Youkilis is outperforming him.

Elster88 Jul 29 2005 05:00 PM

So the Mets are giving up three prospects? And who plays right? Manny the Drunk or Cliff the Gimp? Gotta love those radio call-in people and their sources.

Rotblatt Jul 29 2005 05:13 PM

Well, presumably, we'd move Cliff over to RF. Or we could fulfill a long-held dream of moving Cliff to 1B and calling up Diaz for RF. Any way you look at it, though, our defense gets worse but our offense gets pretty fucking nasty.

I don't know what the fuck we'd do with Embree, though. He's been terrible this year and even lefties are batting over .300 off of him.

Anyway, if we're giving up all that, couldn't we pry Dunn away from the Reds instead? He's younger, better defensively and a helluva lot cheaper. And he's a lefty, which we need more than a righty.

Elster88 Jul 30 2005 12:49 PM

Hmmmmmmm. I'd forgotten about Diaz.

Johnny Dickshot Jul 30 2005 08:53 PM

Weird stuff tonight in Boston... Official statement:

“After meeting with Manny Ramirez, manager Terry Francona made the decision shortly before game time that under the circumstances, it was in the best interests of the club and Manny Ramirez that he not be in the starting lineup tonight.”

Beenso Jul 30 2005 10:32 PM

On baseball tonight, jayson stark said he just received word that the manny deal is 99% dead.

Johnny Dickshot Jul 31 2005 03:57 PM

It's 4 o'clock. Do you know where your prospects are?

TheOldMole Jul 31 2005 03:58 PM

Three minutes to deadline.

MFS62 Jul 31 2005 03:59 PM

Florida just got lefty Ron Villone from Seattle for two minor leaguers.