Wow, Norma... That last crumb shot looks exactly like the dough that I remember from the mellow mushroom. I ate at one a few years ago in Asheville NC. Nailed it! The dough has the right color, and while I can't sink my teeth in it from up here in NH, looks like you got the texture right. Good job to all who have labored on this clone.

Wow, Norma... That last crumb shot looks exactly like the dough that I remember from the mellow mushroom. I ate at one a few years ago in Asheville NC. Nailed it! The dough has the right color, and while I can't sink my teeth in it from up here in NH, looks like you got the texture right. Good job to all who have labored on this clone.

cosgrojo,

Glad to hear the crumb shot looks exactly like the dough that you remember from Mellow Mushroom. I thought the MM clone attempt today did taste like a MM pizza.

I'm glad that the MM#6 clone dough formulation with the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses worked out so well for you. It sounds like you hit a home run. If you decide to sell MM clone pizzas at market, it will be interesting to see how your customers react to them, especially since there are no Mellow Mushroom stores in Pennsylvania where they might have had MM pizzas before and know what to expect. I can see it now: Norma's MM Pizza Clones (you can whisper in the ears of your customers what the "MM" stands for).

There are a couple of notable aspects of your recent results that I think bear mentioning and discussing:

First, it is possible that MM is using a product like the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses. If so, and especially with the word "molasses" on their containers as received from their supplier, they perhaps could legitimately refer to the product as molasses, even though it is mostly pure cane syrup. It is also possible that MM is using a 100% pure cane syrup, such as the Steen's 100% Pure Cane Syrup, and maybe even a product like the Grandma's Original molasses. Steen's does not call its product "molasses", as does Grandma's, but both products seem to be equivalent to the "open kettle" molasses that smaller producers make and call "molasses". As you know, my last experiment using a combination of Steen's and Grandma's Original Molasses did produce noticeable sweetness although the salt level (more on this below) was reduced from prior experiments. I can even conceive of the possibility that the Steen's or the Grandma's Original molasses being combined with another molasses product, including a small amount of blackstrap molasses. The good news for home pizza makers is that all three of the above products can be purchased at the retail level, either in selected stores or by mail order. Golden Barrel also sells their Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses at their website at http://www.goldenbarrel.com/blackstrap-baking-molasses.php.

Second, while the reduced salt level may have played a role in getting the desired degree of sweetness in the finished crust, it may be necessary to conduct a further experiment with the previous level of salt that we were using--around 2% or maybe even a bit higher. It is possible, for example, that the sweetness of the crust that you detected was due solely, or principally, to the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses and not to the reduced salt level. The only way to know for sure is to repeat the MM#6 clone dough formulation but keep everything the same but for the salt, which would be at around 2% or maybe even a bit more (but not so much as to make the crust too salty and unenjoyable).

You might be interested in knowing that after I posted on my recent simple kitchen salt/molasses experiment, I recalled a couple of instances where the salt/sugar matter was discussed or where I thought that the salt level may have affected sweetness. The first instance involved the salt/sugar relationship and the proper balance of salt and sugar in a Papa John's clone sauce that I devised solely by taste based on a PJ sauce ingredients list. You can read about that example, and the interesting an informative exchange I had with member November on the subject, at Replies 1-4 and Replies 10-12, starting at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6633.msg56932.html#msg56932. November even went so far as to set forth a typical ratio of sugar and salt (about 5.9 to 1, in Reply 11) to achieve a balanced condition in the sauce. Out of curiosity, I calculated the same ratio of the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses and salt for the MM#6 clone dough formulation and it is 5.6 to 1 (this is after deducting the weight of water in the Golden Barrel Baking Molasses). Of course, the ratios may mean different things in a sauce as opposed to a dough, but the relationship is something that might be considered when one is making a sauce or a pizza dough.

The second example involves a clone of a Papa John's dough that member Randy came up with, and which I described in the opening post in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1707.msg15310.html#msg15310. You will note that the dough formulation I posted there has a total of 9.8% sweeteners (5.3% raw sugar and 4.5% honey, both of which have above average sweetness). Yet, as you will note from the last paragraph of that post, I made the observation that the crust of the finished pizza did not strike me as being sweet. Instead, I attributed the deficiency of sweetness to other ingredients masking the sweetness. But, if you go back to the formulation, you will see that it includes 3.3% salt, which is far in excess of what most pizza doughs use. It is hard to say that it was the high salt level that was the culprit after all, but it may have played a material role in masking at least some of the sweetness.

As for possible tweaks to the MM#6 clone dough formulation, I'd rather wait for the time being pending the results of my most recent experiment with all Grandma's Original molasses and the even further reduced salt level. But one tweak that does occur to me is to reconsider using some wheat germ in the dough. I have read reports from time to time where diners at MM units complained that they liked the early MM pizzas better than the more recent ones. The amount of wheat germ, which has natural Vitamin E or its equivalent, might be quite small, maybe an amount that is equivalent to the amount of wheat germ normally found in flour before milling to make white flour, which is only a few percent.

I'm glad that the MM#6 clone dough formulation with the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses worked out so well for you. It sounds like you hit a home run. If you decide to sell MM clone pizzas at market, it will be interesting to see how your customers react to them, especially since there are no Mellow Mushroom stores in Pennsylvania where they might have had MM pizzas before and know what to expect. I can see it now: Norma's MM Pizza Clones (you can whisper in the ears of your customers what the "MM" stands for).

There are a couple of notable aspects of your recent results that I think bear mentioning and discussing:

First, it is possible that MM is using a product like the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses. If so, and especially with the word "molasses" on their containers as received from their supplier, they perhaps could legitimately refer to the product as molasses, even though it is mostly pure cane syrup. It is also possible that MM is using a 100% pure cane syrup, such as the Steen's 100% Pure Cane Syrup, and maybe even a product like the Grandma's Original molasses. Steen's does not call its product "molasses", as does Grandma's, but both products seem to be equivalent to the "open kettle" molasses that smaller producers make and call "molasses". As you know, my last experiment using a combination of Steen's and Grandma's Original Molasses did produce noticeable sweetness although the salt level (more on this below) was reduced from prior experiments. I can even conceive of the possibility that the Steen's or the Grandma's Original molasses being combined with another molasses product, including a small amount of blackstrap molasses. The good news for home pizza makers is that all three of the above products can be purchased at the retail level, either in selected stores or by mail order. Golden Barrel also sells their Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses at their website at http://www.goldenbarrel.com/blackstrap-baking-molasses.php.

Second, while the reduced salt level may have played a role in getting the desired degree of sweetness in the finished crust, it may be necessary to conduct a further experiment with the previous level of salt that we were using--around 2% or maybe even a bit higher. It is possible, for example, that the sweetness of the crust that you detected was due solely, or principally, to the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses and not to the reduced salt level. The only way to know for sure is to repeat the MM#6 clone dough formulation but keep everything the same but for the salt, which would be at around 2% or maybe even a bit more (but not so much as to make the crust too salty and unenjoyable).

You might be interested in knowing that after I posted on my recent simple kitchen salt/molasses experiment, I recalled a couple of instances where the salt/sugar matter was discussed or where I thought that the salt level may have affected sweetness. The first instance involved the salt/sugar relationship and the proper balance of salt and sugar in a Papa John's clone sauce that I devised solely by taste based on a PJ sauce ingredients list. You can read about that example, and the interesting an informative exchange I had with member November on the subject, at Replies 1-4 and Replies 10-12, starting at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6633.msg56932.html#msg56932. November even went so far as to set forth a typical ratio of sugar and salt (about 5.9 to 1, in Reply 11) to achieve a balanced condition in the sauce. Out of curiosity, I calculated the same ratio of the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses and salt for the MM#6 clone dough formulation and it is 5.6 to 1 (this is after deducting the weight of water in the Golden Barrel Baking Molasses). Of course, the ratios may mean different things in a sauce as opposed to a dough, but the relationship is something that might be considered when one is making a sauce or a pizza dough.

The second example involves a clone of a Papa John's dough that member Randy came up with, and which I described in the opening post in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1707.msg15310.html#msg15310. You will note that the dough formulation I posted there has a total of 9.8% sweeteners (5.3% raw sugar and 4.5% honey, both of which have above average sweetness). Yet, as you will note from the last paragraph of that post, I made the observation that the crust of the finished pizza did not strike me as being sweet. Instead, I attributed the deficiency of sweetness to other ingredients masking the sweetness. But, if you go back to the formulation, you will see that it includes 3.3% salt, which is far in excess of what most pizza doughs use. It is hard to say that it was the high salt level that was the culprit after all, but it may have played a material role in masking at least some of the sweetness.

As for possible tweaks to the MM#6 clone dough formulation, I'd rather wait for the time being pending the results of my most recent experiment with all Grandma's Original molasses and the even further reduced salt level. But one tweak that does occur to me is to reconsider using some wheat germ in the dough. I have read reports from time to time where diners at MM units complained that they liked the early MM pizzas better than the more recent ones. The amount of wheat germ, which has natural Vitamin E or its equivalent, might be quite small, maybe an amount that is equivalent to the amount of wheat germ normally found in flour before milling to make white flour, which is only a few percent.

Peter

Peter,

I am also glad the MM#6 clone dough formulation with the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses turned out so well. Without your help, it wouldn’t have been possible. I also think it will be interesting to see how customers react to a MM clone pizza. Lol, “you can see it now“, had me chuckling!

I also thought it was interesting that it now is possible that MM might be using a product like the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses. I never would have thought as “molasses” before with cane syrup as the first ingredient. Your idea that MM could be using a product with 100% pure cane syrup, with a product such as Grandma’s could also work. I also think both products could be equivalent to “open kettle” molasses that smaller producers make and call “molasses”. After my experiment with the Grandma’s Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses, I also could understand blackstrap molasses could also be added to another product to be able to make a MM clone. I also think the good news is anyone that wants to try and make a MM clone pizza can benefit from your and my experiments, and can buy the products in their supermarkets or online.

I was interested in knowing that after your recent simple kitchen salt/molasses experiments. Your recalling a couple of instances where the salt/sugar matter was discussed or where you thought that the salt level may have affected sweetness, was also good. Those references were very interesting.

I will wait until you post about your recent MM clone experiment to see if you want me to do more experiments. Will be waiting to hear how that experiment goes.

I have also read where customers said the original MM pizzas were better.

I knew you were going to be away from the forum for a while, so I decided to await your return in case you had any other questions. Also, in the meantime, I did make the pizza using my most recent dough. That is the dough with 11.3% Grandma's Original molasses all by itself with no secondary sweetener. I also reduced the salt level for that dough to 1.5%, as an additional test to see if that would help create a greater sensation of sweetness. The formula hydration I used was 51% (with an "adjusted" hydration of 53.5% and an "effective" hydration of 56%). As reported previously in Reply 809 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg161320.html#msg161320, the "sucrose equivalency" was 7.9%. The preparation and management of the dough was the same as I used for my last MM clone pizza experiment.

I am happy to report that the pizza made with the abovementioned formulation had a nice amount of sweetness. Moreover, it was a "clean" taste. Usually, 1.5% salt strikes me as being a bit bland, which is why I usually go with about 1.75-2% salt, but I did not get a sensation of blandness at all with the latest pizza. It is as though the smaller amount of salt liberated the rest of the flavors in the crust so that they could come to the forefront of my palate as I bit into the crust. That is what I mean about a "clean" taste. Based on this experience, I am going to think more carefully in the future on how much salt to use in my doughs, and most certainly those that contain a lot of sweeteners. That said, however, I think it makes sense to try an MM clone dough with around 2% salt, or maybe a bit more, to see if it was the low salt level that was primarily responsible for the increased sensation of sweetness rather than the large amount of Grandma's Original molasses I used. I'd also like to try using the Steen's product alone. But, all of the above notwithstanding, we have demonstrated that it is not necessary to use a secondary sweetener. That was a barrier that we couldn't break through before. So, using a molasses product alone, or a combination of such products, will work. That doesn't mean that one should necessarily give up on using multiple sweeteners, such as a molasses product and something like honey or raw cane sugar or even brown sugar. Such combinations might not pass muster at MM but they can produce pretty good pizzas, for some maybe even better than those sold by MM in its stores.

I think that someone using the MM#6 clone formulation I gave you with a good unbleached, nonbromated high-gluten flour, with or without a small amount of added wheat germ, a thickness factor of 0.118684 (for a 14" pizza), and a modest amount of salt, should be able to produce a pretty good MM clone pizza. For those who want to make a 10" MM clone or a 16" MM clone, they should use the thickness factors recited in Reply 42 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg151482.html#msg151482.

For my next MM clone experiment, I think I will try using the Steen's all by itself, along with 1.5% salt. I may also add a bit of wheat germ. I'd also like to play around with the oven part of the equation to see if I can approximate the bake time of a real MM pizza. The bake time can affect the way that the crust coloration develops and also the caramelization of sugars. It can also affect the dryness of the crust and crumb and, hence, their textural characteristics.

In your case, I am not sure that there is much to suggest as a future experiment. One possibility is to try another flour, one with somewhat lower protein content than the KASL, even if it a bromated flour. The expression "high-gluten flour" is often loosely bandied about. We tend to think of it as a flour with around 14% protein. However, as the article on flour at http://web.archive.org/web/20060507221142/http://kingarthurflour.com/stuff/contentmgr/files/15ec5c94af1251cdac2d7a25848f0e27/miscdocs/Flour+Guide.pdf notes at page 4, the range of high-gluten flour can be between 13-14.2%. No doubt the high-gluten flours that were available back in 1974 when the founders of MM started the company were different than the current lineup of high-gluten flours. I have discovered that trying to determine the protein content of a given flour from just Nutrition Facts is very difficult, or at least I haven't figured out a way of doing it, especially since the rounding of numbers in Nutrition Facts can cause fairly wide swings in the calculations.

If you would like to propose some other MM clone experiment to try and need my help, let me know.

Steen's does not call its product "molasses", as does Grandma's, but both products seem to be equivalent to the "open kettle" molasses that smaller producers make and call "molasses".

Norma,

I happened to take a close look at the Steen's bottle today and it says that the 100% pure cane syrup is an "open kettle" product. After looking at the label more closely, I concluded that I did not know certain things about the product that I felt would be useful if I were to use the Steen's in an MM clone dough, specifically, the amount of water in the product and the simple sugars by percent. So, I decided to call Steen's, where I was referred to Narris Duchon (pronounced Doo-yon). We had a very nice chat about their products and how they relate to other similar products that are called "molasses". Unfortunately, Narris did not recall the percents of sugars in their products (he said a laboratory test would have to be conducted) and he did not know offhand the water content of their 100% Pure Cane Syrup. However, he gave me the Brix number (75.6) and also a typical Brix number (79.5) for molasses. From those numbers, it looks like the water content of the Steen's 100% Pure Cane Syrup is around 23%, or a bit higher than standard molasses. Since Narris could not recall the percents of simple sugars in the 100% pure cane syrup, I asked him if he could tell me where it might show up on the sweetness scale relative to sucrose, which is usually 100 on that scale. He pondered the question for several seconds as he thought about it and then said that their cane syrup would be about 80% as sweet as sucrose. Based on the table at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Relativesweetness.png, that would place their product a bit above glucose (74.3). The 80% number is what I will use for "sucrose equivalency" purposes to calculate how much of it to use in my next pizza dough with the Steen's cane syrup.

I also asked Narris why they don't call their pure cane syrup molasses, since that is what others with similar products, including Grandma's and small producers, do. He said that they boil their cane syrup a bit longer, making it a bit sweeter than a product like Grandma's Original molasses (I believe that the inversion of sucrose is the cause) but not with quite the same "tang" as the Grandma's Original molasses, to use his description. He added that their Steen's Dark Molasses, which is shown at http://www.steensyrup.com/molasses.html, is actually closer to the Grandma's Original molasses than the Steen's 100% Pure Cane Syrup. I have not seen the Steen's Dark Molasses in the stores near me but it can be ordered from the Steen's website for those who are interested in that product.

I also learned that Steen's does not do any processing of raw cane in making their products. They used to do that years ago, but the production of raw cane syrup has been a declining business. These days, Steen's gets cane juice from Dominos and processes that juice into syrup. The syrup is then bottled or canned and sold mostly at retail. Steen's could sell to someone with a need for a lot of their product but I was told that it would depend on how much of the product would be needed.

I knew you were going to be away from the forum for a while, so I decided to await your return in case you had any other questions. Also, in the meantime, I did make the pizza using my most recent dough. That is the dough with 11.3% Grandma's Original molasses all by itself with no secondary sweetener. I also reduced the salt level for that dough to 1.5%, as an additional test to see if that would help create a greater sensation of sweetness. The formula hydration I used was 51% (with an "adjusted" hydration of 53.5% and an "effective" hydration of 56%). As reported previously in Reply 809 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg161320.html#msg161320, the "sucrose equivalency" was 7.9%. The preparation and management of the dough was the same as I used for my last MM clone pizza experiment.

I am happy to report that the pizza made with the abovementioned formulation had a nice amount of sweetness. Moreover, it was a "clean" taste. Usually, 1.5% salt strikes me as being a bit bland, which is why I usually go with about 1.75-2% salt, but I did not get a sensation of blandness at all with the latest pizza. It is as though the smaller amount of salt liberated the rest of the flavors in the crust so that they could come to the forefront of my palate as I bit into the crust. That is what I mean about a "clean" taste. Based on this experience, I am going to think more carefully in the future on how much salt to use in my doughs, and most certainly those that contain a lot of sweeteners. That said, however, I think it makes sense to try an MM clone dough with around 2% salt, or maybe a bit more, to see if it was the low salt level that was primarily responsible for the increased sensation of sweetness rather than the large amount of Grandma's Original molasses I used. I'd also like to try using the Steen's product alone. But, all of the above notwithstanding, we have demonstrated that it is not necessary to use a secondary sweetener. That was a barrier that we couldn't break through before. So, using a molasses product alone, or a combination of such products, will work. That doesn't mean that one should necessarily give up on using multiple sweeteners, such as a molasses product and something like honey or raw cane sugar or even brown sugar. Such combinations might not pass muster at MM but they can produce pretty good pizzas, for some maybe even better than those sold by MM in its stores.

I think that someone using the MM#6 clone formulation I gave you with a good unbleached, nonbromated high-gluten flour, with or without a small amount of added wheat germ, a thickness factor of 0.118684 (for a 14" pizza), and a modest amount of salt, should be able to produce a pretty good MM clone pizza. For those who want to make a 10" MM clone or a 16" MM clone, they should use the thickness factors recited in Reply 42 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg151482.html#msg151482.

For my next MM clone experiment, I think I will try using the Steen's all by itself, along with 1.5% salt. I may also add a bit of wheat germ. I'd also like to play around with the oven part of the equation to see if I can approximate the bake time of a real MM pizza. The bake time can affect the way that the crust coloration develops and also the caramelization of sugars. It can also affect the dryness of the crust and crumb and, hence, their textural characteristics.

In your case, I am not sure that there is much to suggest as a future experiment. One possibility is to try another flour, one with somewhat lower protein content than the KASL, even if it a bromated flour. The expression "high-gluten flour" is often loosely bandied about. We tend to think of it as a flour with around 14% protein. However, as the article on flour at http://web.archive.org/web/20060507221142/http://kingarthurflour.com/stuff/contentmgr/files/15ec5c94af1251cdac2d7a25848f0e27/miscdocs/Flour+Guide.pdf notes at page 4, the range of high-gluten flour can be between 13-14.2%. No doubt the high-gluten flours that were available back in 1974 when the founders of MM started the company were different than the current lineup of high-gluten flours. I have discovered that trying to determine the protein content of a given flour from just Nutrition Facts is very difficult, or at least I haven't figured out a way of doing it, especially since the rounding of numbers in Nutrition Facts can cause fairly wide swings in the calculations.

If you would like to propose some other MM clone experiment to try and need my help, let me know.

Peter

Peter,

I am glad to hear your recent formulation with 11.3% Grandma’s Original molasses all by itself did have a nice amount of sweetness in the crust. Interesting to hear you said it also was a “clean” taste. Steve, Randy, and I also noticed that in my last attempt with the MM#6 clone dough formulation you set-forth. You are probably right that the “clean” taste with less salt in the formula, was responsible for liberating the rest of the flavors in the crust, Yes, I do agree, that we have demonstrated that it is not necessary to use a secondary sweetener for a MM clone pizza. That is finally resolved.

I will be interested in seeing how your next MM’s clone dough formulation with Steen’s product all by itself, along with 1.5% salt will turn out.

I can try out a lower protein flour with or without VWG for my next experiment. I would also think when MM started there weren’t as many flours to choose from. Thanks for the link to the article about flour from King Arthur, from the wayback machine.

I would need your help with what flour to choose and formulation for another attempt at a MM’s clone if you don’t mind.

I happened to take a close look at the Steen's bottle today and it says that the 100% pure cane syrup is an "open kettle" product. After looking at the label more closely, I concluded that I did not know certain things about the product that I felt would be useful if I were to use the Steen's in an MM clone dough, specifically, the amount of water in the product and the simple sugars by percent. So, I decided to call Steen's, where I was referred to Narris Duchon (pronounced Doo-yon). We had a very nice chat about their products and how they relate to other similar products that are called "molasses". Unfortunately, Narris did not recall the percents of sugars in their products (he said a laboratory test would have to be conducted) and he did not know offhand the water content of their 100% Pure Cane Syrup. However, he gave me the Brix number (75.6) and also a typical Brix number (79.5) for molasses. From those numbers, it looks like the water content of the Steen's 100% Pure Cane Syrup is around 23%, or a bit higher than standard molasses. Since Narris could not recall the percents of simple sugars in the 100% pure cane syrup, I asked him if he could tell me where it might show up on the sweetness scale relative to sucrose, which is usually 100 on that scale. He pondered the question for several seconds as he thought about it and then said that their cane syrup would be about 80% as sweet as sucrose. Based on the table at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Relativesweetness.png, that would place their product a bit above glucose (74.3). The 80% number is what I will use for "sucrose equivalency" purposes to calculate how much of it to use in my next pizza dough with the Steen's cane syrup.

I also asked Narris why they don't call their pure cane syrup molasses, since that is what others with similar products, including Grandma's and small producers, do. He said that they boil their cane syrup a bit longer, making it a bit sweeter than a product like Grandma's Original molasses (I believe that the inversion of sucrose is the cause) but not with quite the same "tang" as the Grandma's Original molasses, to use his description. He added that their Steen's Dark Molasses, which is shown at http://www.steensyrup.com/molasses.html, is actually closer to the Grandma's Original molasses than the Steen's 100% Pure Cane Syrup. I have not seen the Steen's Dark Molasses in the stores near me but it can be ordered from the Steen's website for those who are interested in that product.

I also learned that Steen's does not do any processing of raw cane in making their products. They used to do that years ago, but the production of raw cane syrup has been a declining business. These days, Steen's gets cane juice from Dominos and processes that juice into syrup. The syrup is then bottled or canned and sold mostly at retail. Steen's could sell to someone with a need for a lot of their product but I was told that it would depend on how much of the product would be needed.

Peter

Interesting to hear that the Steen’s 100% pure cane syrup is an “open kettle” product. I see the numbers for the water content of the Steen’s 100% pure cane syrup is a bit higher. I see Narris Duchon did help you with where their product would relate to sucrose. You learned a lot of interesting information from Narris. I wonder if my Golden Granulated Evaorated Cane Juice Syrup form Domino is anything like the cane juice Steen’s gets from Domino.

I don't mind at all. Can you tell me what high-protein flours you have on hand? And is there a particular molasses or cane syrup product that you would like to use?

Peter

It gets "sticky" for me to understand what really are high protein flours, except for high-gluten flours. Do you want me to list what high-gluten flours I have on hand, or possibly also other high protein flours? I am going to the restaurant store tomorrow and might pick up a bag of the Commander Flour.

It doesn’t really matter to me what molasses or combinations of molasses products I try.

The high-gluten flours I have on hand are KASL, Kyrol, ADM Gigantic High-Gluten Flour, and PFM Power Flour. The flours I am not sure of are the Superlative flour, Mondako, and Better for Bread flour.

Norma,

The last three flours you mentioned are below 13% in protein content. Leaving out the KASL that you have been using, that leaves us with the Kyrol, ADM Gigantic and the Pendleton Power flour. Of these, I think I would go with the PFM Power flour. It is at 13.5% protein, which is about the value I was looking for. Moreover, as you can see from the Pendleton mill location map at http://www.pfmills.com/mill-locations-pages-19.php, there are two mills in Georgia and a few others in adjoining states. One or more of those mills are the Milner Milling mills. As I understand it, Milner Milling is a private company that acquired Pendleton in 2001 and, in turn, is owned by Southeastern Mills (http://www.semills.com/CMFiles/Docs/SEM%20Timeline.pdf). Southeastern Mills has a mill in Rome, Georgia (http://www.semills.com/first-avenue-location.aspx) that appears to have been established in 1972, or a couple of years before MM was founded. That mill produces flours but I don't know if that mill produces the Power flour, or any other high-gluten flours for that matter. But maybe there is or was a connection between MM and Southeastern Mills. This is a matter that might be explored further but for now I think I would go with the Power flour. Maybe you have mentioned this before but do you have the unbleached or bleached form of the flour?

The last three flours you mentioned are below 13% in protein content. Leaving out the KASL that you have been using, that leaves us with the Kyrol, ADM Gigantic and the Pendleton Power flour. Of these, I think I would go with the PFM Power flour. It is at 13.5% protein, which is about the value I was looking for. Moreover, as you can see from the Pendleton mill location map at http://www.pfmills.com/mill-locations-pages-19.php, there are two mills in Georgia and a few others in adjoining states. One or more of those mills are the Milner Milling mills. As I understand it, Milner Milling is a private company that acquired Pendleton in 2001 and, in turn, is owned by Southeastern Mills (http://www.semills.com/CMFiles/Docs/SEM%20Timeline.pdf). Southeastern Mills has a mill in Rome, Georgia (http://www.semills.com/first-avenue-location.aspx) that appears to have been established in 1972, or a couple of years before MM was founded. That mill produces flours but I don't know if that mill produces the Power flour, or any other high-gluten flours for that matter. But maybe there is or was a connection between MM and Southeastern Mills. This is a matter that might be explored further but for now I think I would go with the Power flour. Maybe you have mentioned this before but do you have the unbleached or bleached form of the flour?

Peter

Peter,

I didn’t know from the map of Pendleton mills locations, that one or more of those mills are the Milner Milling Mills. I also didn’t know that Milner Milling is a private company that acquired Pendleton in 2001 and, in turn, is owned by Southeaster Mills. That was good searching on your part if it appears it was established in 1972, or a couple years before MM was founded. You may be right that there may be a connection between MM and Southeastern Mills.

In order to keep the variables under control, for the next dough formulation for you to try I suggest that you use the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses again. I also propose to decrease the amount of salt to 1.50%, just as I did for my last MM clone dough formulation. For the flour, you should try the Pendleton Power flour. With the foregoing changes, the MM clone dough formulation (MM#7) looks like this:

In order to keep the variables under control, for the next dough formulation for you to try I suggest that you use the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses again. I also propose to decrease the amount of salt to 1.50%, just as I did for my last MM clone dough formulation. For the flour, you should try the Pendleton Power flour. With the foregoing changes, the MM clone dough formulation (MM#7) looks like this:

Boy, it's been nuts around here. . We hosted the big family Thankgiving and have been having some work done around the house. . I haven't had much time to spend on the Forum.

You guys have really been going at it. . very impressive!

I have been making my weekly pies as usual, with little variation. I have been sticking to my 5.5% Brer Rabbit and 2% diastatic malt powder for the most part. Though last week I decided to add to this 2.3% sorghum because I still have some around. That particular formula was nothing special. . I couldn't really tell any difference. Since my first diastatic malt experiment, my other pies haven't seemed to really wow me as much as it did, but that could depend on many factors.

I also finally got some Grandma's Molasses at the store so I am excited to try that for the first time. I think I still have some Brer Rabbit that I feel I need to use-up before going to the Grandma's.

I am interested in the salt experiments. I have been using 1.75% salt for a long time in my MM clone formulations. Today I will try 1.5%, but I am likely also to adjust some other variables, so it won't be a truly useful test.

I am probably gonna go with some honey and whatever molasses product I have left. If I'm out of Brer Rabbit, I may go for the gusto and use the approx 11% Grandmas. That seems soooooo high compared to my 5.5%, but it sounds like it's worked out well for y'all!