I know what you mean about needing a score card to know who's the Lancastrian and who's the Yorkist when it comes to the Wars of the Roses. After reading on the subject for so many years, I've finally got most of the major players down pat.

I, too, was very disappointed when Cornwell apparently gave up on the Starbuck series. Grrrr.... I never read any of the Sharpe's novels, but did watch a few of the episodes on TV with Sean Bean. Does that count?

Browner who is your husband on here? Nice to meet youagain if I met you once before. I do love reading all the post on here . Have several real life friends on here now that I have met at muster . I also have learned quite a bit from others on here .

Browner I have not met you then, nor have I met Calcav in person but the two of you have a standing invitation to visit the Drum Barracks when you are in California to visit family. I just missed both of you when I was at Corinth last year on the way home from Muster in Franklin. That Drum T shirt and the Cal 100 Shirt that Calcav wears are the ones I dropped off for him when I visited. I knew he wasn't going to be there as he emailed me he was not. I did ask if you were there and a lovely lady in the bookstore said no you were not , you were also out of town. One of our Round table and Drum Barracks members did meet you about a year ago when she visited Corinth One of these days I will be back again and would love to meet the two of you.

kj, I am a fan of Richard III too. It started simply MANY years ago, with a mystery by Elizabeth Peters, called The Murders of Richard III. It made me think of how the publicity machine was at work even then, and that Henry VII did have more to gain than Richard. I never joined the Society but have often thought it would be interesting.
What better way to come out ahead than getting rid of the male heirs and marriage to those heirs sister, and uniting both houses!

Hi Susan, I thought so, and I told my husband that I don't think I met your personally, but he was of a mind I did because of the t-shirts. I am very sorry about my poor memory. Would love to see you sometime, and we hope to visit the Drum Barracks some day soon.

Browner, I know exactly the book you're referring to. I love Elizabeth Peters' mystery books, as well as her non-fiction books on Egyptology she writes under her real name, Barbara Mertz. The Murders of Richard III and Josephine Tey's Daughter of Time are great introductions to the whole Richard III controversy. Readers are entertained with good story telling while learning a bit of history on the side.

Actually Henry VIII did not kill anyone. He had it done for him by others. His father before him had battled to get the throne from Richard III , his daughters afterward also had many people killed . Actually Mary was even called "Bloody" Mary for the numbers she had killed. ElizabethI had her own cousin Mary Queen of Scots beheaded because she was a rival for the throne.

Nothing new to English Royal History. William l fought and won the throne of England making him the first Norman King. Maud and Stephen caused many peopleto die in their battle over who should rule England . Richard I fought in the Crusades. Richard ll is said to have died a horrible death brought about by order of Henry lV. Henry V fought in many battles where men were killed and so it goes down through all of English History . Henry was only one of many kings that caused death to many people. Of course he did add the fact of changing the religion of England into that factor.

i know. i spend a lot of time studying British History and British Literature. but come on he had his wives killed cause they only gave him daughters and for a few other reasons im sure but how cool is that. that is like deadly history to the extreme. i watch loads of murder shows and CSI stuff so i think that interesting.

____________________War Means Fighting And Fighting Means Killing - N. B. Forrest
When war does come, my advice is to draw the sword and throw away the scabbard." Stonewall Jackson

Heh. I'm reminded of the line about there being nothing great in being prime minister of Luxembourg in peacetime. The worst tyrants often make the most exciting histories.

My current home, Oxford, saw much of the religious upheaval of the Tudor era first hand. There's a cross on Broad Street where the Oxford Martyrs (Cramner, Latimer, and the other one) were burnt at the stake.*

P.

* If you ever visit, and a student tells you that the Martyrs' Memorial on St Giles is the spire of a vast underground cathedral, walk away quickly.

While not really Medieval I have always been fascinated by Catherine of Aragon and her actions for the throne. And the wax mask they made of her a few years ago shows a woman that oddly resembles my little sister... heh heck of reason to be interested in something.

Well dear , I have studied history and literature long before you were born. I majored in history and minored in English Literature in the Dark Ages. I have continued to study both subjects since then . Henry VIII only had two wives "killed" The first wife Catherine he divorced because she was unable to have a son . She had one daughter, Mary, and miscarried. His second wife Anne Bolyn he accused of Treason and that is why she was beheaded. True after the first child Elizabeth she did not have any more children. The next wife Jane Seymour died after her son was born. He then married Anne of Cleaves whose portait did not give a true picture of what she really looked like. They had been married by proxy . When Henry saw her he could not live with her. They agreed to a divorce . She lived the rest of her whole life as a "sister " to Henry. She was very well treated as such in court. Catherine Parr was another beheaded. Again being a cousin of Anne Bolyn she plotted with others in the court against Henry. Had nothing to do with her not having children let alone boys. He had his heir by now, young Edward. The last of the wives was Catherine Howard. She outlived Henry . Seems they got along quite well . Of course by then he was bloated and ill most of the time.

I see nothing cool about having your wives beheaded even though they were plotting against him. As to being "deadly history to the extreme" Not sure what you mean. There were other rulers that were more violent . Ivan the terrible was no softy . Then there are the Roman emperors. . . .

I watch plenty of mysteries and read many mystery writers. I know the difference between reality and fantasy . CSI is so not real but that is a horse of a dfferent color.

Keep reading and studying you will never know everything. The more I read the more I know that there is more to know.

Susan; I bow to your superior knowledge on European Medeival history. I was interested in Catherine for what she witnessed as a child in Spain, what she went through in England. This was a woman who decided she was going to be queen and did so by any means neccessary. From what I understand she was loved by the people. Seems like she went through just about the worst the english aristocricy could throw at her in her life. Does that seem like a reasonable, if abbrevieted, understanding of her life to you? My knowledge of the woman is really from just a couple books on the subject.

Johan from what I have read on Catherine she was a strong Catholic queen. She had been engaged to Arthur , Henry's older brother . This would have been a strong alliance with Spain . When Arthur died of course the two countries did not want to lose that alliance so she was married to young Henry who was the ideal of the young prince at the time. The bloated king we see is the later Henry. When she only gave him a daughter and then seemed to be unable to bring a child to term he tried to divorce her using the charge she had been married to his older brother and therefore his marriage to her was not legal. She fought him all the way.

The Church of England was formed and Henry got his divorce (way too short an explination but works for now.)

She remained in England her whole life. Kept a Catholic household and raised her daughter to be a Catholic monarch also. She also never faultered in her belief that she was still the true wife of Henry. That takes a strong woman. I have to admit I have never read a whole book just on Catherine. Most of my knowledge of her is secondary to Elizabeth or Henry or books on the six wives. Antonia Frasier has a good book as does Allison Weir on the wives.

The reign of the Tudors is an interesting period of history. Strong rulers , age of exploration in sciene and literature as well as the world. The time of Raliegh and Drake, Shakespeare , Bacon , Marlowe ( just how did HE die? Was he a Spy?) The rise of the great Theatres, Growth of the Merchant class. I would have to look at my books to find more information . The books are not as used now that I have started the study of the Civil War and by that I mean the AMERICAN Civil War .

Ashbel,I loved Costain's books. Thank you for reminding me. I need to find those again. I haven't read the other, but another on my list now.
Susan your overview was very well done. It reminded me lots I need to read again. Hope to get the husband back into storage to find those books!

Browner I have to be careful when I skim postings . I first read your post that you were going to put Tom back in storage so you could read. lol . Glad I reread it to see he is safe. Not in storage.

I have the Costain books in paperback from the 60's I think. I must have bought them in college. I am not sure when they were printed . They were some of the first books I bought on medieval England.

Years ago I bought a novel I, Elizabeth which I dearly loved. Also the George books on Henry 8th's Private Lives and Mary Queen of Scots . I had the Mary book on tape. 25 tapes. I listened to it on a trip to Oregon and back. Fiction but so good . I have read more Medieval and Renaissance fiction than Civil War fiction . Nora Lofts had some good historical fiction too about the time period .