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Has anyone claimed that Legion hasn't been a failure since Waid left the book? I mean, it's pretty well-documented that the actual Legion books have sucked since Levitz came on the books. No one (save for IVcNuB4 perhaps) can really argue that.

I disagree that this whole thing is Johns' fault, though. When Tony Bedard replaced Waid on the Threeboot, it also immediately went to crap. As I've said repeatedly, only A-list talent can make the Legion work in today's industry.

guitargod694 wrote:I dunno... I think most of it is just good natured ribbing.

We're nerds. Nerds get picked on for being nerds. Sometimes, by other nerds.

I'm sorry, but I just don't buy into that. People disagree here, I disagree here, sometimes strongly. But the pack mentality of who gets picked on, and the underlying reason why...The entry point is the fact that the person cares about an overpriced comic book. But the reason behind it is something else entirely. We all have seen it -- it's classic trolling. Always a "small comment" here, a little ribbing there -- but it never stops, for certain people. And if you do respond, you're "taking things too seriously."

*Sniff, sniff* "Damn it, Diana...If I'd known they would trade us in for a JT Krul-written Captain Atom and "The Savage Hawkman," I'd have let Superboy-Prime destroy all reality."

"Superman flies and is really strong...what the fuck else do you need to know?!" -- Hitler, expressing his displeasure about DC rebooting and complaints about continuity

ElijahSnowFan wrote:I'm sorry, but I just don't buy into that. People disagree here, I disagree here, sometimes strongly. But the pack mentality of who gets picked on, and the underlying reason why...The entry point is the fact that the person cares about an overpriced comic book. But the reason behind it is something else entirely. We all have seen it -- it's classic trolling. Always a "small comment" here, a little ribbing there -- but it never stops, for certain people. And if you do respond, you're "taking things too seriously."

Fair enough. Everyone gets to decide for themselves what is good natured and what is over the line, I suppose.

On a related note, when the opening post of a thread discusses how a creator murdered a fanbase and left them on the side of the road with a broken neck, I think it sets the tone of a thread.

Overreaction begats overreaction on the Internet, especially on this board. Yes, there's a mob mentality on the Internet. Yes, there's a level of familiarity here that allows people to feel they can take deeper digs. But, fanboyish rampages and over the top hyperbole tend to get mocked here. If an established poster hasn't figured that out by now, caveat emptor.

BlueStreak wrote:Has anyone claimed that Legion hasn't been a failure since Waid left the book? I mean, it's pretty well-documented that the actual Legion books have sucked since Levitz came on the books. No one (save for IVcNuB4 perhaps) can really argue that.

I disagree that this whole thing is Johns' fault, though. When Tony Bedard replaced Waid on the Threeboot, it also immediately went to crap. As I've said repeatedly, only A-list talent can make the Legion work in today's industry.

Was Waid's run really that great either? I can hardly remember it anymore.

DnA's run was the last time the franchise really excited me, except for the cartoon.

BlueStreak wrote:Has anyone claimed that Legion hasn't been a failure since Waid left the book? I mean, it's pretty well-documented that the actual Legion books have sucked since Levitz came on the books. No one (save for IVcNuB4 perhaps) can really argue that.

I disagree that this whole thing is Johns' fault, though. When Tony Bedard replaced Waid on the Threeboot, it also immediately went to crap. As I've said repeatedly, only A-list talent can make the Legion work in today's industry.

It might take an "A-list" creator for it to sell like skyrockets, but obviously, an any up and comer with a strong vision would be enough to keep sales above the Mendoza Line. Imagine if a Scott Snyder or a Jonathan Hickman had been handed Legion instead of Levitz five years ago. Or if some rising creators of note had been given the boot at the time of Flashpoint. Would it be canceled now?

And let's not forget, Lightning Saga and the Legion's appearance in Action was what really sealed the Threeboot's fate.

But you don't really want me to go on a long anti-Johns rant this close to dinner, do you?

"I have my heroes, but no one knows their names"- Sons of the Desert

Strict31 wrote:I'm not sure that combining the nigh-uncontrollable power of LOLtron with the Nacireman is a good idea. Some years from now, when mankind is on the verge of extinction, we'll be able to look back and remember this moment, and say, "DANG."

Juan Cena wrote:It might take an "A-list" creator for it to sell like skyrockets, but obviously, an any up and comer with a strong vision would be enough to keep sales above the Mendoza Line. Imagine if a Scott Snyder or a Jonathan Hickman had been handed Legion instead of Levitz five years ago. Or if some rising creators of note had been given the boot at the time of Flashpoint. Would it be canceled now?

And let's not forget, Lightning Saga and the Legion's appearance in Action was what really sealed the Threeboot's fate.

But you don't really want me to go on a long anti-Johns rant this close to dinner, do you?

I know you can find the numbers, but wasn't the version of Legion prior to this one actually doing well, the one with Earth Man in it? Then Levitz had to break it off, just as he was getting rolling with the Legion of Super Villains?

*Sniff, sniff* "Damn it, Diana...If I'd known they would trade us in for a JT Krul-written Captain Atom and "The Savage Hawkman," I'd have let Superboy-Prime destroy all reality."

"Superman flies and is really strong...what the fuck else do you need to know?!" -- Hitler, expressing his displeasure about DC rebooting and complaints about continuity

BlueStreak wrote:On a related note, when the opening post of a thread discusses how a creator murdered a fanbase and left them on the side of the road with a broken neck, I think it sets the tone of a thread.

Overreaction begats overreaction on the Internet, especially on this board. Yes, there's a mob mentality on the Internet. Yes, there's a level of familiarity here that allows people to feel they can take deeper digs. But, fanboyish rampages and over the top hyperbole tend to get mocked here. If an established poster hasn't figured that out by now, caveat emptor.

Yeah, I should have put a "treated them like he" or made a Craig James joke. But that would have required having explaining who Craig James was to you for the umpteenth time.

"I have my heroes, but no one knows their names"- Sons of the Desert

Strict31 wrote:I'm not sure that combining the nigh-uncontrollable power of LOLtron with the Nacireman is a good idea. Some years from now, when mankind is on the verge of extinction, we'll be able to look back and remember this moment, and say, "DANG."

ElijahSnowFan wrote:I know you can find the numbers, but wasn't the version of Legion prior to this one actually doing well, the one with Earth Man in it? Then Levitz had to break it off, just as he was getting rolling with the Legion of Super Villains?

It was in the mid-to-low 20K's, IIRC. definitely not something to show the TW brass as a sign of success. But they were trending lower just about each month.

"I have my heroes, but no one knows their names"- Sons of the Desert

Strict31 wrote:I'm not sure that combining the nigh-uncontrollable power of LOLtron with the Nacireman is a good idea. Some years from now, when mankind is on the verge of extinction, we'll be able to look back and remember this moment, and say, "DANG."

Juan Cena wrote:It was in the mid-to-low 20K's, IIRC. definitely not something to show the TW brass as a sign of success. But they were trending lower just about each month.

Did you like that series, or no? Because I honestly that was good, up until the point Levitz clearly had to tie it off for Flashpoint.

I hate to say it, but I do agree with you that this last volume was...it just wasn't that good, and it was unfortunate. I thought there was some room to move with Harmonia Li, and Levitz was clearly trying to move on from some of the older Legionnaires, but it just wasn't good enough to take.

*Sniff, sniff* "Damn it, Diana...If I'd known they would trade us in for a JT Krul-written Captain Atom and "The Savage Hawkman," I'd have let Superboy-Prime destroy all reality."

"Superman flies and is really strong...what the fuck else do you need to know?!" -- Hitler, expressing his displeasure about DC rebooting and complaints about continuity

ElijahSnowFan wrote:I'm sorry, but I just don't buy into that. People disagree here, I disagree here, sometimes strongly. But the pack mentality of who gets picked on, and the underlying reason why...The entry point is the fact that the person cares about an overpriced comic book. But the reason behind it is something else entirely. We all have seen it -- it's classic trolling. Always a "small comment" here, a little ribbing there -- but it never stops, for certain people. And if you do respond, you're "taking things too seriously."

Are you trying to say that Nac DOESN'T take the Legion too seriously? Taking certain things extremely seriously is Nac's gimmick!

ElijahSnowFan wrote:Did you like that series, or no? Because I honestly that was good, up until the point Levitz clearly had to tie it off for Flashpoint.

I hate to say it, but I do agree with you that this last volume was...it just wasn't that good, and it was unfortunate. I thought there was some room to move with Harmonia Li, and Levitz was clearly trying to move on from some of the older Legionnaires, but it just wasn't good enough to take.

I thought it was heading in a better direction. I loved the moment in the Timber Wolf yelled "I'm Human!" when Sun Emperor called him an animal.

That's the Brin I want. A charismatic loner, not an savage, animal-like character. Waid's TW was awesome because he had a James Dean (or even a Dylan McKay, if you must), with a little bit of Seto Kaiba thrown in.

That's why I blew up over DeFalco's zero issue Legion Lost origin, because it went the cheap "savage" route.

"I have my heroes, but no one knows their names"- Sons of the Desert

Strict31 wrote:I'm not sure that combining the nigh-uncontrollable power of LOLtron with the Nacireman is a good idea. Some years from now, when mankind is on the verge of extinction, we'll be able to look back and remember this moment, and say, "DANG."