What help us to know ourselves, what things are not helping factors, and how we can analyse ourselves from the outgoing faculties and intellect is a practical subject. This is truly called spirituality.

Seeing is above all

Interview of Sant Kirpal Singh by newspaper reports in Toronto, Canada, on October 24, 1963, during the 1963-1964 Tour of the West.

Comment: She would request you to talk for five minutes. Give us the highlights. What is your mission? Then they can ask questions on that basis.

Sant Kirpal Singh: Masters, whenever they came, they had one universal teaching, you see, that God made man . . . all alike. All mankind is one, with the same privileges from God. The highest aim of a man's life is to know God. And to know God, we must know our selves first. "Self-knowledge precedes God-knowledge." That is why all Masters said, "Know thy self!"

Comment: (to reporters) You are following, or not?

Sant Kirpal Singh: And for that purpose, they (the seekers after God) joined various schools of thought, which are religions, so as to attain the highest aim of life: to know God and to know one's self first. So these religions are our schools of thought, which you have joined to achieve that object. Religions are made by man. The highest purpose is to know God and to know one's self first. These religions were made for our moral and spiritual uplift; but these were made for us – we were not made for them. We have to make the best use of them to know God, you see. So in all religions, Masters have come. They said the same thing. The very same object has been all along with us, with all Masters who came in the past, whether they came in the east or the west.

So that very mission is that all mankind is one: as the (physical) body we are one . . . the man-body we have all got the same way; as a soul, we are all one; as a worshipper of the same God, we are also one. The unity is already there – we have forgotten. Masters come and revive that very truth, which you forget. So our mission now is only that, because with all your advancements – physical and intellectual – we are not happy. So spirituality is the only hope left – the lesson which you have forgotten is to be revived. For that purpose, I have met almost all religious heads and social heads and, also, the political heads. Because, as you know, these are the heads (leaders) that drive the masses like anything. If their angle of vision is changed, then there can be peace in the world. That is the mission with which we have come from India.

I have been to different countries of Europe, you see, and met a great response. I gave a talk in a JesuitCollege in Austria, so that they referred us to the Vatican. At the Vatican, we had a long talk with them. And, as a result of that, the pope (Paul) has made arrangements to have a call for a meeting of all non-Christian religions. They are now thinking of a step that way. So this is for the peace of the world, you see, with God's grace. Our physical and intellectual advancements have not been able to give us peace – we have got atomic bombs, etcetera. If a war comes, the world will end! This is the main purpose of our tour. I have been to Europe so far, and I have come here to the United States, now Canada – throughout north, east, west. But the man purpose is like that. And we have received a great response everywhere. This is an awakening almost, from God above. You see? They (the Vatican's) are now trying to unite the subjects of all religions into one. All religions are just trying to unite their sub-sects into one.

Reporter 1: What are they trying to unite? I beg your pardon.

Sant Kirpal Singh: Sub-sects. There are so many sub-sects, (of Christianity), you see. Some are Protestant, some are Catholic, some are Orthodox, some are Coptic, some are Byzantine, so many. They are almost the same . . . Christianity. So they (the Vatican's) are trying to bring all together. Our aim is, you see, just to bring all religions together – not only one religion – but all religions together. For that purpose, we had a conference in India in 1957 . . . the first great conference that is called by the name of the "World Fellowship of Religions" (WFR).

Reporter 1: And you were the president of it?

Sant Kirpal Singh: Yes, I was the president. Over 250 delegates came from all religions and other countries. And more than 200.000 people joined. The second conference was held at Calcutta in 1960, for the same purpose. So I continue as President, you see, even so far. So this is the mission we have now here in the west: just to meet all spiritual heads and social heads and, also political heads. And they have given a great response all through. So that at the next conference (of the WFR) that we are going to have by the end of 1964, we want so many delegates from this side (the west), too. That will be a very big gathering, of course, in India, too. So the main purpose is just to bring all children of God together on one common ground without changing their religion. They must remain in their own religion, but sit together, understand each other. We are already one – we have forgotten. That's the main purpose.

Comment: Did you get the point, then?

Reporter 1: Yes, I think so.

Comment: You can ask him any further question.

Reporter 1: I would like to know if you founded, supposedly you call it a mission, the "Science of the soul mission"? Or what is it?

Master Kirpal Singh: It is a matter of practical self-analysis – separation of soul from mind, outgoing faculties and outward things: self-analysis.

Reporter 1: And is this done through meditation?

Sant Kirpal Singh: Yes, not as a matter of feelings, emotions, or inferences, you see. It is a practical self-analysis, given at a sitting, and people have the experience of how to analyse (separate) them-selves, how to rise above body-consciousness. This (inner experience) is what is meant by "You must be born anew". You see? Just to be "born" into the beyond, to rise above body-consciousness. That all Masters said: "Learn to die so that you may begin to live." That is what is meant: just to rise above body-consciousness.

Reporter 2: "Learn to die so that you may begin to live?"

Sant Kirpal Singh: Yes.

Comment: It is called the "Path of the Masters".

Sant Kirpal Singh: "Path of the Masters" or the "natural way" . . . "Surat Yoga". "Even a child can do it, you see. Yesterday (in Hamilton), there were more than a hundred students there at our house where we were staying . . . .

Comment: Yesterday (October 23, 1963) in their home-town (of Hamilton), Master held a special gathering for one hundred little children who were from the neighbourhood. So they came and they were amazed. They were made to sit in silent meditation for ten minutes. It was very simple: close the eyes, and see. The Master gives his radiation to uplift their souls. He asked them to get up, whoever has seen (within). More than ninety percent got up who saw tremendous light within, and out of them seven saw Jesus Christ. So that's inner revelation, in which he is expert.

Reporter 2: Seventeen? Or seven?

Comment: Seven . . . Seven little children saw Jesus Christ. And others also saw the Master's luminous form, because he is the living saint in this age.

Reporter 2: Well, describe it.

Comment: I don't know. It (the description) is from the people who see, you know. The people (in biblical times) saw Jesus, and they never believed in him. They even told him that he was a false prophet.

Reporter 2: These seven little children saw Jesus Christ . . . . How did they know it was Jesus Christ?

Comment: They could see it (the inner revelation), you know.

Reporter 2: But if they had never seen Jesus Christ, how could they know it was Jesus?

Sant Kirpal Singh: They saw his photo, and they recognized him. They said they have seen him by the photo they have got already of Christ. It is God's gift, you see. Of course, conviction cannot arise unless a man has experience himself. That's right. Christ said, "I manifest my self to them who are after me truly", but, for want of practical people, it has become – what do you say? – a "mere story" . . . that's all. (See St. John 14:18-21)

Comment: "Unless you become like little children, you cannot enter into the kingdom of God (or heaven)."

Reporters (together): Then you instructed them first in the teachings of Christ?

Comment: Other Masters also said the same thing.

Reporter 1: Now, what is the radiation that you have referred to?

Sant Kirpal Singh: Well sit and have it, and then you'll see.

Comment: Come tomorrow morning, and see what it all means.

Reporter 1: Well, what did he say about radiation?

Comment: It is his power.

Sant Kirpal Singh: Radiation means "thought-force", you might say.

Reporter 1: It is touch, or it is . . . ?

Sant Kirpal Singh: Without touching!

Reporter 3: "Thought-force", he said.

Sant Kirpal Singh: Or "attention", you might say.

Comment: I can tell you one little story. You might be interested . . .

Sant Kirpal Singh: You need not go into details. They cannot believe in it unless they have their own experience. You see? Tell them – on the level of the social (consideration) – what other people are getting. Of course, it is knowing God, you see. To know God is what? God is light, life, and love. Unless you see the light, you have not seen God. You can see the light of God – not the absolute God, which is not into expression as yet. So this is a regular science – to be understood first . . . not in one minute or two. But each man can have that experience; and they are having it so far, with the grace of God. That's all I can say.

Reporter 2: Tell us about this "practical self-analysis" you were talking about.

Sant Kirpal Singh: It is rising above body-consciousness: "Learn to die so that you may begin to live." Saint Paul said, "I die daily" (I Corinthians 15:31). The words are there (chuckle), only we do not know exactly what is what (in our scriptures) for want of practical people.

Reporter 2: Well, this is a sort of yoga, isn't it?

Sant Kirpal Singh: No. The yoga way is different. They involve – you see they have got Hatha Yoga, Prana Yoga, Jnana Yoga, and others. It is none of them. It is the natural way back to God. "Surat Yoga", it is called.

Comment: The "Path of the Masters" – the yoga of the sound-current. It means to be "born anew".

Sant Kirpal Singh: To be "born anew", to "die daily".

Reporter 2: This happens when you meditate?

Sant Kirpal Singh: Yes. They are given a sitting for that, you see. And they see that, they rise above body-consciousness. They also open the inner eye and see that there is light. This is what Christ said to his disciples. "Blessed are you. You see things which the old prophets and righteous men could not see." There is something there like that; but we are not in the know of these things practically, for want of practical people. (See St. Matthew 13:10-17.)

Reporter 2: Well, isn't that what the man does who sits on a bed of nails? He rises above body-consciousness.

Sant Kirpal Singh: Who?

Reporter 2: The holy man in India who burns himself in a fire, or sits on a bed of nails.

Master Kirpal Singh: Yes, of course, they also know the way – a bit, of course. That's a hard way. This is the natural way; even children can do it. But it requires some competency.

Reporter 2: Well now, once you learn how to do this, what happens?

Sant Kirpal Singh: What happens to you? You traverse into the beyond – what happens after death.

Reporter 2: I mean, why do you want us to do it?

Sant Kirpal Singh: You need not do it, if you don't want it. But if you want to follow Christ and other Masters, you have to do it. If you don't do it, you are not the follower of Christ and other Masters.

Sant Kirpal Singh: Come in the morning, please, if you want it, if your mind has faith. If you only sit, with it as now from a critical point of view, you won't have it (chuckle).

Reporter 2: I am too western and practical.

Master Kirpal Singh: Oh! I am more practical than the westerners. See! I am also eastern and western. Both! I am now western. I am now here – not eastern any more.

Reporter 2: Now may I ask, if you propound such Christian teachings as you have just given us to believe you do, what you feel is new in your approach? The meditation approach is not new. Your cultures have stressed meditation for a long time. And so what is it that your "science of the soul", as such, has that is a new approach to this problem of finding God?

Sant Kirpal Singh: No, it is the old, old science that we have forgotten. When Masters come, they revive it. They (Masters of each subsequent religion) go away. "To err is human . . .", and we simply have formations, and then the formations result in stagnation and deterioration. Whenever Masters come, they revolt (against the stagnation and deterioration). This is no new science: Truth is one.

Reporter 1: Yes, it is "no new science", but . . . !

Sant Kirpal Singh: It is a revival of the old, old science, which you have forgotten.

Reporter 1: Yes, that is what I wanted to say. But you apparently have . . . I don't want to use this word . . . "popularized" such a science.

Sant Kirpal Singh: Yet, it meets the need of the times!

Reporter 1: Have you ever met Mr. Billy Graham?

Sant Kirpal Singh: I have not met him so far.

Reporter 1: You have not met him. What do you think of his methods?

Sant Kirpal Singh: Well, I have not seen him. I don't know what he does. Then how can I give any opinion about any man whom I do not know? If you tell me what he does, I might give from my level what he does.

Comment: He just teaches from the bible. That is all.

Reporter 1: All right, we can skip that. I was just interested to see if you might have met him at some point in your travels . . .

Sant Kirpal Singh: No, no, not that. The point is that generally all that people give is a matter of feelings, emotions, or inferences. You see? Mere belief. If they see the Light of God within, that way is all right. . . if Billy Graham is doing that. With due deference, if he is doing it only in feelings, emotions, and drawing inferences, then it is no sin. That's all I can say (chuckle). Seeing is above all.

Comment: On this path, we believe that it is the Master who can do this job. And many not believe in that.

Sant Kirpal Singh: "The son knows the father, and others to whom the son reveals him (the father). "If he has this (spiritual) competency to reveal this thing to the others, he is called "a Master", a spiritual man. It is the true definition of Masters who came in the past. "If thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light." Very clear. If anybody can give that – with due deference to him – he is following the (inner) way of Christ, and all other Master.

We are generally given the outer forms, rituals, saying of prayers, reading of scriptures – that is the preparation of the ground – they have got their value, but they are all in feelings, emotions, and drawing inferences. They are all subject to error. Seeing is above all! Unless you see, you cannot be convince. Naturally.

You can take it up as an experiment measure but until you see, you cannot be convinced. That's a matter of seeing, of course (chuckle).

Reporter 3: In other words, Sir, you are teaching the inner teaching of all the religions of all the world?

Sant Kirpal Singh: Yes, to the best I know. And the people are having it – that's all I can say – with the grace of God overhead.

Reporter 1: But you do not call yourself one specific religion.

Sant Kirpal Singh: I belong to one school of thought – which is called the Sikh religion – as a religion. We have respect for all Masters who came in the past, or who may come. Because what is the Master? It is God-power manifesting at some human pole. This is what is defined as "the Master". And, as such, no son of man can give that thing – only the God in him can raise other souls to be united with God, and know him, and see him. All deference goes to God in him.

Reporter 3: Sir, I have one other question. From my reading of eastern thought . . .

Sant Kirpal Singh: Yes?

Reporter 3: . . . you learn from your Master who learns from his Master, it goes on through a chain. Now, this Master-power that you have, is this a mantle that is passed on from one Master to another?

Comment: Seventy years old, and he was with the British government (in India) for 36 years . . .

Sant Kirpal Singh: Truly speaking, I am a man like you, you see (chuckle). With the grace of God and the Master at whose feet I sat, I learned this practical way. And people are having it. And by the parallel study of religions, I find that this is the same. Of course these very thoughts are given by other Masters in their own languages, but that makes no difference. Those who see the Light of God, they are true Christians. Those who see the light of God, those are true Sikhs, and the true Buddhists, the true Mohammedans. (Those) who do not see the light of God . . . . Well, we are on the way, of course, to become to the teachings of our own Master.

Comment: He earns his own living . . . livelihood. And from age of six, he used to be called a "Saint".

Sant Kirpal Singh: But that's only a gift of God, you see. I don't think of myself as more than a man. What is in me is in every man, as a gift from God. That is in every man. Every saint has his past, and every sinner a future. There is hope for everybody.

Reporter 3: I understand that you were with the Lieutenant Governor (of Canada) this morning.

Sant Kirpal Singh: Oh yes.

Reporter 3: Did he discuss any problem?

Sant Kirpal Singh: Oh yes, this peace problem (with the Dukhobors) he was attacking over there, you see.

Comment: Thousands of people bring all kinds of problems.

Reporter 3: You discussed this peace problem, and other kinds of problems, with the Lieutenant Governor?

Sant Kirpal Singh: I told him that the rulers should consider that so many children of God have been given under their care, to be looked after. So if the heads of the governments, you see, take it that way, they should live and let others live. If they cannot live at home, the others might help. They will be helping the children of God. There should be no mood of killing millions of people for that purpose. They should take it that way. He was quite appreciative, then.

I was mentioning the political heads, the social heads and, as I told you, the religions heads. All are coming to the realization that spirituality is the only hope. That's the only hope left for the world over. Otherwise, if this atomic war goes on, this world will end. So spirituality is the only hope left for the world over. And this is spirituality – what I am telling you – not outer forms or rituals or the preparatory steps, not, of course, the elementary, the exoteric side. Those are good actions, of course. But we must take a step further to know him – to open the inner eye to see the light of God.

Comment (aside): The Master met him, the Lieutenant Governor, this morning. He (the Governor) was very much impressed with his mission. They exchanged their ideas.

Sant Kirpal Singh: He was quite appreciative. He is a good hard-worker.

Peace, peace, everybody wants peace nowadays. It is an awakening from God, you see. Everybody is trying to do that. And this is the only thing: if you have some social, political, and religious heads and their angle of vision is changed, that can bring peace. They are the driving force for the masses . . .

Reporter 2: Do you think spirituality could settle the Kashmir dispute?

Comment: Yes, if they have love for God. "Love thy neighbour," and it can be solved. In the olden times, all kings and queens had a spiritual advisor. And now we don't care, so they are in trouble (in Kashmir).

Reporter 3: I have a question that is not basically concerned with your world tour.

Sant Kirpal Singh: Yes . . . ?

Reporter 3: But one thing that has always perplexed me, being a westerner, is that we in the west have always, in the course of our living, been able to create science or sanitation.

Sant Kirpal Singh: That's right . . . that's right.

Reporter 3: Now, since India is considered to be a far more holy country than we are, I have often just wondered why, since there are so many Masters and so much Master-power there, so many people are living in poverty, and why some of this power isn't put into the type of channels that can elevate the masses?

Sant Kirpal Singh: That is their dream, you see. The answer to the question is they have been so long under the slavery of other governments in the past, I tell you. Now they are independent, and they are doing their best and much more. They have done wonderfully in a few years; they are not thriving, but still they are doing more. Because when you are under some government, naturally you cannot thrive. That (former) government also did something, but not what they (the people of India) are now doing quite independent of them.

Reporter 3: So that is the basic reason!

Sant Kirpal Singh: Yes, history shows it, you see.

Reporter 3: I had thought it might have something to do with what the general concepts were . . .

Sant Kirpal Singh: Never! They are doing wonderfully, you see, within the fifteen years (since independence). You will see in every line they are progressing. But in the meantime, the big shadow of communism (the invasion of India by the Chinese) came over us. We never dreamed it because we had no enemy. We had love for all. We wanted to live and let others live. So this came up all at once. Naturally, where we now stand, you see, is to save the innocent people. And yet others want their conditions.

Comment (to other reporters): So you might not have followed why in India the people are so under-privileged when there are so many Masters – under-privileged, poor.

Sant Kirpal Singh: I have given a reply. Perhaps you have followed it.

Reporter 2: I could not hear it. I am sorry. Could you tell us?

Sant Kirpal Singh: Under other governments, you see. Slavery of governments! First, under Mohammedans, and then they came under British rule. Now they are advancing like anything . . . wonderfully they are progressing.

That (slavery) was the main reason. And further, to some extent, you might say, they have been caring more for the word than for the world.

Reporter 3: That's it!

Sant Kirpal Singh: (Chuckle) That is to some extent, but the other thing (slavery) was a potent factor, I tell you. You see?

Reporter 3: Sure!

Comment: But actually speaking, many Masters were very poor. Even Jesus was not a rich man. He told, "I have no place to hide my head." And he was a Master!

Sant Kirpal Singh: Well, Mastership does not come with wealth – all mankind is one, with the same privileges from God. If you reach to God, you might get it (Mastership).

Comment: But still in India many people are content, you see. They are content, and they don't care whether they have bodily needs or not, because they lead a philosophical life.

Sant Kirpal Singh: They care more for the bread of life, rather than for the bread of the belly (chuckle). You see? That is some of the reason, not all, I tell you; it may be say twenty per cent, or twenty-five per cent. But the seventy-five per cent, the other ones, now they are progressing with all those (worldly) views. And they would have gone further, had this trouble not come on us. Still we are going on.

Reporter 3: I believe that when you were in Rome, you spoke to the pope – Pope Paul . . .

Sant Kirpal Singh: Yes. I spoke to the Vatican's first, for two or three hours – a long talk. Then (afterwards) we were meeting with the pope, you see.

Reporter 3: . . . and did you discuss the ecumenical council?

Sant Kirpal Singh: No. He just invited me to be an observer of this meeting (of non-Christian religions). But my program schedule could not be fixed up, and I could not do it, you see. And the last thing, while I was there, he gave me a silver medal also with a citation of all those things. And, in parting, he said, "I will pray for India, if you will pray for us," (chuckle) you see.

Comment: In America, there are about three thousand disciples.

Sant Kirpal Singh: All disciples of God, you see (chuckle).

Comment: More and more people are coming from all walks of life. And he spoke on the Voice of America and CBS-TV and radio, and they were wonderful messages.

Reporter 2: Are there many disciples in Toronto?

Comment: About one hundred. And we had a very good reception in Hamilton. The major of Hamilton honoured the Master for about half an hour, and wished him, "good luck!"

Reporter 2: You were saying before about the meditation period. Did you say that you had children there?

Comment: Ah yes, children. You see, there were one hundred children who came . . .

Sant Kirpal Singh: That was in the evening.

Comment: . . . in Hamilton. They sat down, and saw the inner vision. It was around 4:30 p.m. You can read about it in today's paper because reporters were there (October 23, 1963).

Sant Kirpal Singh: It appears to be strange enough, of course.

Comment: It is the love of God which carries humanity along.

Sant Kirpal Singh: It is God alone, his grace.

Comment: He (the Master) gave them (the children) each an apple and blessed it.

(The scheduled press interview ends here, with a babble of voices, the banging of folding chairs, and so on, so that a coherent transcription cannot be continued for some time on the tape. Then quiet returns and Master Kirpal Singh is heard to say, "All credit goes to God.")

Sant Kirpal Singh: (to the reporters remaining): God is absolute. When it (God) came into being – first it was wordless – when it came into being, it was called Word, Naam, Shabda, you see. That has been the cause – God-in-action-power – you might say. Word is God-in-action-power which is the cause of all creation. (See St. John 1:1-3.)

Reporter 3: Can you define the "sound-current" as what the Christians would call the "Holy Ghost"?

Reporter 3: When you give initiation to the . . . or like the children yesterday . . . in other words, you open up their spirit eye or their spiritual eye . . .

Master Kirpal Singh: With the grace of God.

Reporter 3: . . . and you are able to put them in contact with the spirit of God.

Sant Kirpal Singh: This is it! And they testify themselves that it is so.

Reporter 3: And in India, they call it something else.

Sant Kirpal Singh: That (inner light and sound) is God, as all religions have given it, I tell you. Zoroaster calls it Sarosha. Do you see? Sarosha – "unstruck fire" – the light and sound principle. Hindus call it as Udgit, Sruti, and Jyoti. Mohammedans call it as Kalma and Noor and Qalam-i-Qadim. All Masters say the same thing, you see. Pythagoras said the same thing, "truth clothed in light" and to hear the (inner) "harmony". So all Masters have given the same thing, in their own times, of course. Where the world philosophies end, there religion starts. So all Masters said the same thing, of course in their own languages.

For want of practical people, we are not having the right import of this. We simply talk it at the intellectual level. So philosophies deal with theories, and mysticism – this is mysticism, truly speaking – deals in reality, direct contact with the God-into-action-power.

God-into-action-power has two phases: light and sound (see St. Luke 3:16). Practical experience has to be had, you see. Unless we have it, we cannot be convinced. "It is all a rigmarole". About the light: "If you shut the doors of the temple of the body, you will see the light of heaven." "If thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light." And also you find in the book of revelation, there was "thunder" and the "drum-beat", and "harpers" were playing on harps .

(There is again a confusion of voices, as several conversations occur simultaneously among the reporters. Then Master Kirpal Singh resumes:)

These are references given already in our scriptures. Practical experience given already in our scriptures. Practical experience has to be had, you see. Unless we have it, we cannot be convinced – it is "all a rigmarole".

These are the basic principles of all religions. If you are a Christian, you have forgotten. That's all (chuckle).

Madame Blavatsky went to India. She was just giving a talk, and some professors were there. And one professor told Madame Blavatsky, "Well, what you say is all mere rigmarole, as impossible as that flowers can rain down from the roof!" Madame Blavatsky said, "Well, professor, do you think it is impossible?" In the meantime, flowers did rain down from the roof. The whole table was covered. He was wonderstruck. Then Madam Blavatsky told him, "Well, professor, it is also according to the laws of nature which are hidden as yet to us."

So these (inner light and sound) are no miracles; they are gifts from God in accordance with the laws of nature which are hidden. But if a competent person manifests the power to do it – it is the God in him, no son of man can do it. First it appears to be very improbable, that problem of "how can there be light?" But when they see it, it is no mesmerism nor hypnotism, no spiritualism nor spiritism. It is a conscious contact. You'll have it.