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The never ending battle between two enemies with so much in common. It is a shame that so many innocent people die because two groups cannot get along. Split the damn country in half and make it two state instead of one, end this shit now. Muslims, Jews, and, Christians, we are all the same.

That's what Hamas doesn't want to do. Their stated goal is to destroy the present state of Israel, and make it a Muslim state. Hence their bombing Israel *after* it quit Gaza, and the coup d’état against the Palestinian Authority in Gaza. Both the Palestinian Authority and Israel want a two state solution. So do many Arab countries in their plan. Hamas and the Iranian government don't want any Jewish state.

It certainly is an ongoing mess and a terrible waste of life. Author and philosopher Sam Harris has developed a progressive way of viewing religious intolerance. From Wikipedia:

Harris acknowledges that he advocates a benign, corrective form of intolerance, distinguishing it from historic religious persecution. He promotes a conversational intolerance, in which personal convictions are scaled against evidence, and where intellectual honesty is demanded equally in religious views and non-religious views. He also argues for the need to counter inhibitions that prevent the open critique of religious ideas, beliefs, and practices under the auspices of "tolerance."

If you do not want to share your own house with me,
am I given the right to kill you(r) children then
split the damn house in half and make it two houses instead of one?!
Is that allowed in Democratic US?!
Is that allowed in Christianity?!
Is that allowed in Judaism?!

> It is a never ending battle for land that belongs to not one, but many?!

Arab Muslims, Arab Jews, and, Arab Christians were living there peacefully before Israel was wrongfully created in 1948 and non-Arabs Jews were cheated to migrate to the land that never belonged to non-Arabs. Emphasizing, the land did not belong to non-Arabs, but Jews were brought to it from troubled corners from all around the world.

Do you know why? To make it a never ending battle? Again why?
To keep on selling arms to the surrounding countries on the the condition that they would never use them against Israel that has been made at all times to be superior in armaments.

If it is still hard to understand why, I will comment more with Flowers.

@William: Both the Palestinian Authority and Israel want a two state solution. So do many Arab countries in their plan. Hamas and the Iranian government don’t want any Jewish state.

It isn't hard to understand why some parties don't want any Jewish state. The clock keeps ticking and more peeple are being killed, all the while the White House shows its bias by saying nothing. The Australian Federal Labor Government is conspicuous in its silence too:

Typedog, from a Jewish point of view it looks like the "crime of Israel" in the eyes of many of its opponents, including Hamas, is simply wanting to exist. The United Nations declared a two-state solution, and the united Arab countries did not accept it, and in 1948 tried to drive the Jews into the sea, as they put it.

There followed a series of wars and terror campaigns against Israel up until today. Israel was able to defend itself, which is not a crime to me. There was the high cost that almost everyone in Israel has a relative or friend who died in these defensive wars.

Israel also, led by Ariel Sharon, engaged in a long and brutal occupation of Gaza and the West Bank, which compromised it morally and, in my view, undermined its security.

After this long history of war and folly there is finally acceptance of the existence of Israel by it seems most Arab governments, and agreement on a two-state solution--which was the original decision of the UN.

Hamas and Iranian leaders and other radicals still don't accept the right of Israel to exist. So when ironically Sharon himself, chief author and leader of the Israeli brutality that has taken place, stopped the occupation and pulled out of Gaza, Hamas's reaction was to make a coup d'etat against the Palestinian Authority and wage war on Israel.

You need to understand that peace has been possible for 60 years if Israel's neighbors were willing to accept its right to exist. That is shown by the fact that when Jordan and Egypt were willing to make peace, it happened quickly, and the peace has been kept. It is those who believe like Hamas who have been the destroyers of the possibility of peace.

I pray that the guns and bombs on both sides will stop, the killing will stop, today, and peace will at last come this year to all in this long suffering region.

I remember, from a QI episode (Stephen Fry's trivia/comedy quiz), that Edward de Bono recommended offering them Marmite to put on their bread, the theory being that yeastfree bread contains no zinc, a lack of zinc makes people belligerent.

> The United Nations declared a two-state solution, and the united Arab countries did not accept it.

1. Who created the United Nations?
2. From where did/does UN take Commands?
3. Did the map of the 2 states show the borders of Israel?
4. Or borders were left to expand as far as the 2 Blues Lines?!

> .. and in 1948 tried to drive the Jews into the sea, as they put it.

How could that be? Who tried to drive who?
Remember Israel was created in 1948.

> Israel also, led by Ariel Sharon, engaged in a long and brutal occupation of Gaza and the West Bank, which compromised it morally and, in my view, undermined its security.

Absolutely true, Ariel Sharon was a Bloody Terrorist?!

> After this long history of war and folly there is finally acceptance of the existence of Israel by it seems most Arab governments, and agreement on a two-state solution—which was the original decision of the UN.

Which one of those Arab governments was democratically elected?
1+2 Mobark+Hosayan have been respectively ruling Eygpt+Jordan for more that 30 years.
3. Tribe of Saud wrongfully converted the land of Muslims to a Kingdom
and named it after their Tribe confiscating by that rights of all other tribes.

> Hamas’s reaction was to make a coup d’etat against the Palestinian Authority and wage war on Israel.

But Hamas was democratically under the eyes of UN watching team.
1. Was the team bribed by Hamas?
2. Or the Majority of Gaza people were terrorists?
________________________________________________________________________________
P.S. I do not believe in Democracy but in True Islamic Leadership (Be it Arab or non-Arab).

Tim, that's a nice example of wit & satire used as incisive social criticism. Thanks!

William, thanks for the excellent summary / revision history.

There is something wrong with the world's most powerful "democracy", something basic and terrible, if the Washington has nothing to say about this horrific conflict, in effect allowing it to take place. Silent complicity!

In the face of the complicit silence from the government of the world's most powerful "democracy", the peeple have taken to the streets in protest. More than 21,000 in Paris, setting alite three cars and overturning twenty. In London protestors lobbed their shoes at the door of #10 Downing street and yelled "shame" out to Gordon Brown, whose spokesman issued a bullshit press statement.

Had Arab leaders had a policy of tolerance and taking full advantage of the talents of the new Jewish immigrants from Europe--as we in America have had for immigrants into the US--there would have been peace and prosperity, and by the way in all likelihood no majority Jewish state. Al-Husayni and other Jew-haters seem to have had a key role in creating Israel, though that of course was not their intention.

As to the Israeli war of independence, there is no doubt whatsoever that Arab countries attacked the Jews in an effort to eliminate the newly declared Jewish state. That was their declared policy, while the Jews accepted the partition.

If you accept the UN partition, there is no doubt that this was Arab aggression. Of course, you might interpret the partition as Western agression that the Arabs were fighting against. But the Jews themselves were not the ones starting the war. They were pawns in the game, though pawns who wanted to live and were willing to fight for it.

About the partition itself, I have just been reading about it, and it's very interesting. The first thing to understand about it is that while the Jews and Arabs were the ones doing the fighting and dying, it was the big powers who created the situation. And that was true going way back: The Arabians conquered the near East--which if I'm not mistaken is why you speak Arabic rather than Aramaic--then the Persians and Turks and finally British had their turns as powers--which is why you and I can communicate in English.

If you just focus on demonizing the Jews I think you will radically misunderstand the realities of the history, and its true lessons.

Also the idiocy and tragedy of the initial years of Bush policy in Iraq is not all there is to democracy. Unfortunately democracy is no guarantee of good leadership; it does enable you to remove bad leaders without bloodshed, but only when the society respects democratic process. That respect for democratic process in turn depends on rule of law, education, a free press, and respecting the rights of minorities. Had you had these conditions for sustainable democracy, Saddam could have never remained in power for so long.

Also there is, unfortunately, little democratic control over foreign policy. When the British were developing democracy and were prospering at home partly because of it, they were doing all kinds of horrible things as colonial power which they would never do at home. An indication of the positive power of democratic influence is that even Bush had to listen to a democratically elected government in Iraq.

Until the 1970s biographies of the mufti were written by Zionists, such as Moshe Pearlman, Joseph Schechtman, and Eliahu Elath, who attempted to vilify him...
And the link you mentioned is not an exception

As a Moslem scholar/leader, Husayni sought to establish an Arab state in Palestine. Unable to end JEWISH IMMIGRATION, he led a violent Arab revolt (1936-1939) against the Zionists and the British but failed, as did his attempt to STOP the creation of Israel in 1948.

Because he feared Zionism would cause the eventual domination or expulsion of the Palestinians from their homeland, he participated in an anti-Zionist demonstration in 1920.

Indeed, he cooperated with the British Palestine government in the 1920s and early 1930s, attempting to change British policy by appealing to the British and by holding a General Islamic Congress in 1931 to galvanize the Arab and Islamic world against Zionism and to goad them to pressure Britain. Instead, the British allowed Jewish immigration to increase to 61,854 in 1935, which radicalized the Palestinians...

> If you accept the UN partition, there is no doubt that this was Arab aggression.
1. Proven today that UN is worse than useless.
2. Israel+US have constantly proved to be UN-Resolutions Makers+Breakers.

> Had you had these conditions for sustainable democracy, Saddam could have never remained in power for so long.

Had US had these conditions for sustainable democracy, Saddam could have never come to power. We never asked for help. All we aske(d) not to disturb.

US created Sanyora of Lebanon against Narollah.
US created Abbas of Palastine against Hamas.
US created Al-Maliki of Iraq against Al-Sadr.
++ created ...

"Get out of our land" has been translated into a shoe-throwing show?!

> An indication of the positive power of democratic influence is that even Bush had to listen to a democratically elected government in Iraq.

A Big Joke? Iraqis has realized that they have been fooled democratically?!

Is this better? He had allot to do In planting the seed of evil in Palestine. Nazi Ideology was supported by him and his followers. Many fabrications can be made in photoshop, however this is not fake he wanted and did form an alliance with Hitler in-order to derail the Jews train to Palestine. If you do not believe me do the research.

2nd. In Islam
1. Fighting defensively+morally in the way of God is a must.
2. Starting a war aggressively for any reason is forbidden.
3. Working against 1+2 is hypocrisy.

4. Islam holds the Sate + Religious Authority inseparable.
5. The 2 heads — State + Religious Authority— could be be One.
6. The 2 heads complements one another.
7. The Religious Authority has to interfere if the State affairs worsen.
8. The State is not allowed to interfere in the affairs of Religious Authority.

1. Does your religion hold the Sate + Religious Authority separable or inseparable?
2. Could the 2 heads — State + Religious Authority— be One?
3. Should the 2 heads go complementary or in different/opposite directions?
4. Is the Religious Authority allowed to interfere in the State affairs?
5. Is the State allowed to interfere in the affairs of Religious Authority?
____________________________________
Short + Accurate Answers without mix-up, please!

ak, you are at liberty to ignore this thread. We have freedom of speech here at typophile and my typophile blog is no exception. If this discussion is offputting for you then please ignore it & walk away.

This thread exists because, like all the other peeple protesting the hell on earth in Gaza, I am outraged, sickened, utterly disgusted by the violence & bloodshed.

"Both the Palestinian Authority and Israel want a two state solution."

That is categorically untrue. It was always (and is) in Israels power to make two states, but it willfully chose to expand its own territory through settlements and territorial expansion using walls and Israeli citizens as a tool of colonialism. Whenever it has offered a two-state solution, it has been in terms that would be unacceptably to any state or people. To put a long story short, Israel is no different than Hamas in thinking that it owns exclusive rights to Israel and Palestinian territory, and if you think the Israelis are willing to co-exist with the Palestinians you are sadly mistaken - this is the very reason they have explicitly denied the Palestinians their right to return to their homes in Israel (and the very reason they are not recognized as citizens of any state).

ak—some of us enjoy the respite from the awful daily apathy. It's nice to have somewhere with a variety of sources being referenced and an open, tolerant, and intelligent discussion. If you don't want a part of it, don't click on it.

I'll agree that a thread like this is dangerous, but putting it a blog is probably the only place it belongs on Typophile. Please consider this an intellectual discussion and leave play school antics at the door.

"Is the State allowed to interfere in the affairs of Religious Authority?"
The struggle by religions to govern the material and by states to govern the spiritual, just is, and they work it out or not. Or, do you mean, can one country allow some of it citizens to lob rockets into Israel on Christmas Day? Or, do you mean, can a State take an equally prized parcel of holy property away from one Religious Authority and give it to another?

>Where does typography and type design have anything to do with politics?

What excludes typographers and type designers from having an interest in those who govern us?

Would it be anti-democratic to note that past elections and future elections loom over this whole fiasco, and that if the enfranchised do not take an active interest in their politicians they are just as guilty as their representatives. The coincidence of lame ducks and the possibly-soon-to-be-unempowered is creating an atmosphere that can be exploited for the purposes of garnering positive public opinion and reaction. Would the overwhelming reaction to Hamas’ rockets have anything to do with the relatively ineffective action taken in 2006 in Lebanon where Hezbollah were almost able to claim victory by virtue of not being heavily defeated?

But we live in a cruel world. Therefore, the Jewish Bible teaches us to be realistic. There are Bin Ladens and Hamas hypocrites. It teaches to destroy the enemy before they destroy us.

It's pretty sad when both sides are taught that by their religions.
It's even sadder when the people who are taught such things believe them to
the letter and don't see through the venom and misguided pride they breathe.

Can you see there are humans on the other side? Humans, who live, breathe, work, talk, pray, meet friends, buy food (if they can get some), eat, sleep, crap, laugh and cry? Humans who design type, for God's sake? Humans who are scared, and humans who then suddenly live no more? –
I'm not trying to make you "feel sorry for them," and please note that I'm not aiming to play down their crimes, their violence, their killings. I'm trying to make you see what this is, on a very basic level.

Palestinians are not abstract personifications of violence, hate, and evil, "so-called civilians" whose raison d'être is to be worthless moving covers for the Bad Guys. They are humans, and they have hope, and dreams, they have pride, and they have a sense of home. And they have a right to live. Just like you do – and rightfully so. But their feelings aren't any less rightful than yours, and that's the painful and difficult part that is sometimes blotted out by gunfire and war rhetoric.

So, which path are you going to choose? One would be for Israelis and Palestinians to stop viewing each other as "enemies to be destroyed", but as partners calling the same land their home*; and trying to find a way to live together in something resembling peace. That's going to be hard, and painful, and you're not going to get your way all the way.
The other option of course is to attempt to kill them all, completely subjugate them, or drive them out of their homeland. Although you might consider that's been tried before; it doesn't work particularly well, and it doesn't look good either.

* And please don't suppose I don't think both sides would need to do serious homework for this.

Not that I'd really still believe people would learn from history. And I realize much of this post is a hopelessly romantic appeal. But hey, it's worth a try to remind people not to realize the horror of humanitarian catastrophes only after the fact. Like what happened to the Jews themselves (and part of my own family with them, by the way). To the Armenians. Want a list?

Can you see that a Palestinian's life is not any less valuable than an Israeli's?

So which definition applies to Israel bombing that mosque, killing the people who were praying in there?

Yes, that was a rhetorical question.

Yes, it's very easy to always be the victim. It entitles you to whatever.
Israel is not the victim anymore. Israel is killing people. Israel has power. And Israel needs to learn to use it in a responsible way.

It's a shame that you think that kindness means allowing a murderer to live and kill another person.

After hearing the widespread hypocracy from many people, many liberals, etc., who never spoke out when kassams reigned in Sderot year after year, but now when some Arab dies as a human shield for a Hamas terrorist, they scream and yell that Israel is the bad guy.

First, let me dissociate myself from gohebrew's comments. Where in the Bible does it recommend smashing babies? That is just revolting, and I would certainly repudiate it if it says so with approval, which I very much doubt. Your interpretation of the 'rodef' law is dangerously close to that of the assassin of Yitzchak Rabin, and is false and dangerous. I hope you think better of it.

Fortunately, the prophets and Jewish post-biblical sages make clear that the chief Jewish values are kindness, justice and humility. Not joy in killing the "enemy". Even though self-defense is legitimate, it is against Jewish values to rejoice in your enemy's suffering.

Aziz, let me address your comments, first generally. We all have a choice about whether to see the solution of the world's problems either in effective cooperation with others different from us, on one hand, and, on the other hand, in destroying our "enemies". The dividing the world into "us" and "them", the enemy, is the first step to dehumanizing others, and giving an excuse for brutality and suffering.

The "us and them", black and white thinking is also destructive of peace, prosperity, and love.

I see the same kind of "us and them" thinking in your comments, and in gohebrew's comments. In your case, you seem to think that stopping Jewish immigration into Palestine was sufficient justification for al-Husayni's leading anti-Jewish riots, and seeking Hitler's help. (For the latter, see the Telegram from Himmler to Husayni in the Wikipedia article.)

I, on the contrary, think that is exactly the kind of backward, tribal, us-and-them thinking that keeps the middle east in war and the Arab peoples in poverty. It is leaders who exploit nationalism to keep in power and control the populace, against its own true interests.

As I said, the US has been at times far more enlightened as concerns immigration. Currently, about 10% of US residents are foreign-born. And during one earlier period great immigration, 1890-1910, millions of Jews came to the US, including my grandparents. While we have our scoundrels also--such as the infamous Madoff--the US as benefited greatly from this immigration, as well as from immigrants from other groups all over the world.

For example, one of those immigrants was the Jewish (but irreligious) John von Neumann, the math genius who invented the architecture of the computer you are using to design your Arabic fonts. Cooperation = productivity.

The key issue to me is the ability to see the faults and sins of your own group, and the humanity and merits of the other. That is the foundation of peace and cooperation, and I am saddened that I haven't read in any of your comments acknowledgment of the evil done by anti-Jewish Arab terrorists, or of the good done by Jews in Israel and around the world.

I am sickened by the current war, and do fault Israel for its settlement policies under Begin and Sharon. I don't know enough about the situation to know whether the current war could have been avoided by wiser Israeli policy. But I certainly do see the Hamas policy of attacking Israel with the declared intent to destroy it, even after Israeli withdrawal from Gaza, as very wrong.

I pray that both sides will be able to think beyond "us and them", and make peace.