theurge14:The shootout in the prison was just bad. Too many suspensions of belief.

First of all, nobody at all notices some guy climbing in the tower right in front of them. Ok, so nobody was on guard duty. Fine.

Then you've got Rick lying on his hip in the grass with an ACOG M4 and he's taking those terrible shots and hitting nothing?

5.56 peppering Dead Mustache Guy and not killing Carol?

Maggie and Carl shooting from the hip while running to cover, then Maggie taking all those excruciatingly bad shots with the scoped M16. I mean wow, let's use up all of our bullets while not aiming.

The Governor was wide open the entire time with that unscoped bullpup rifle. Nobody got a shot on him, at all.

I get it they were taken by surprise, but c'mon, this group is also supposed to be battle hardened after living on the road for months against zombies. They looked like idiots that had to be saved by Darryl and Merle. Oh, now I get it.

BTW, what is so scary about the yard full of zombies? Didn't they clear the prison already by just baiting them to the fence and and stabbing them one by one? They have Michonne this time, she can rampage with her blade.

Just a hard to believe action sequence.

I also expect much more from these grizzled old veterans of gun battles./I don't think they are that battle hardened when their targets usually don't shoot back.

Bhruic:Ugh. The whole Rick going crazy thing was annoying, but I figured I could power through it. But then the end... I haven't figured out if in this universe, people have some sort of bullet forcefield, or if walkers have some sort of magnet in their heads that draws bullets, but damn. The same people who could run around headshotting zombies across large distances can't hit regular people standing out in the open. Not even moving, or taking cover. Hell, even when they aren't even looking your direction. Absolute suspension of disbelief killer.

I'll give it another show, but if they are going to continue to completely change how the physics of the world works based on what they need for that particular episode, I'm going to be done. Just too frustrating to watch.

I'll give you the "drive-by headshot masters with unlimited ammo" episode was completely ridiculous, but I really wasn't bothered by this gun fight at all. They were being shot at and Rick's group has almost zero experience shooting at people who shoot back. Hell, in his first appearance, Rick lost a gun battle. I can see them shooting well at zombies, they have time to aim or are close enough to not really have to. In this, they were pinned down and scared to death. Rick, the best shot there, ran out of ammo. Carl was pretty badass, but how accurate is a pistol or whatever he had at that range anyway. The only time they could set up a good shot was when zombie fedex came crashing through and everyone on both sides inexplicably froze, well that and the Governor's first shot. The Governor was really the only baddie out in the open as well. Martinez had wood cover, Afroman had the truck for cover and the guy in the tower had the high ground, pinning Carl and the ladies down. I think they left the Governor all cavalier and unprotected just to up his bad ass cred and delusions of grandeur like they did when Gus marched towards his attempted assassination in Breaking Bad. This was probably unrealistic (I have zero gunfighting experience so I cannot attest), but it's not a deal breaker or even a real problem for me on any level.

Trocadero: Character building = death. It's why Michonne is such a great survivor.

Character building? The Govenor has been our onscreen antagonist for EIGHT HOURS of television and we know next to nothing about him other than he is a colossal farkup and completely ineffective as a leader. We were promised a sadistic bastard and we got sheriff Roscoe P. Coltrane.

Ninja chick is a great survivor because the writers don't have the slightest idea what to do with her. We were promised a badass and we got a girl who endlessly wanders between the prison and Mayberry.

I will give that governor a tiny bit of credit. When he brought down the full and awesome wrath of his forces they did manage to shoot one guy who was just standing there i

MagSeven:I'll give you the "drive-by headshot masters with unlimited ammo" episode was completely ridiculous, but I really wasn't bothered by this gun fight at all. They were being shot at and Rick's group has almost zero experience shooting at people who shoot back. Hell, in his first appearance, Rick lost a gun battle. I can see them shooting well at zombies, they have time to aim or are close enough to not really have to. In this, they were pinned down and scared to death. Rick, the best shot there, ran out of ammo. Carl was pretty badass, but how accurate is a pistol or whatever he had at that range anyway. The only time they could set up a good shot was when zombie fedex came crashing through and everyone on both sides inexplicably froze, well that and the Governor's first shot. The Governor was really the only baddie out in the open as well. Martinez had wood cover, Afroman had the truck for cover and the guy in the tower had the high ground, pinning Carl and the ladies down. I think they left the Governor all cavalier and unprotected just to up his bad ass cred and delusions of grandeur like they did when Gus marched towards his attempted assassination in Breaking Bad. This was probably unrealistic (I have zero gunfighting experience so I cannot attest), but it's not a deal breaker or even a real problem for me on any level.

That's all fine and good, but it doesn't change the fact that the writers are assigning the characters situational skills. The protagonists are dead-eye shots, nailing moving walkers in the head from a moving car with a shotgun, but they can't hit humans because the humans are shooting back? There are much better ways to present that than what happened in this episode. But I still can't get past that this season established the group as an efficient killing machine that suddenly forgets everything about survival in a moment when they know they are going to be under attack. A few plot tweaks were all that was necessary to offer essentially the same battle but in a more realistic way. Instead of Rick going crazy train, he and Glenn could have been in the tombs trying to find the breach when the Governor attacked. As someone said earlier, the walker attack could have been launched first to distract the group while the Governor's men followed behind. Same result, more easily digestible. Instead, the writers went for cheap drama. Maybe it's a minor gripe in the grand scheme of things, but it was big enough to annoy me and I usually don't get annoyed at this show.

God I hate that trope so much, the one where only the bad guys can shoot straight. How is it four people with as much experience shooting as these folks have by now couldn't knock off one guy standing out in the open in a tower? Why couldn't Rick hit dude when he was using a scope? How were four guys keeping six people in three different locations covered?

This is it? For three seasons all we heard about was "wait till the prison", "wait till we meet the governor". Three hours into season three and the prison serves as nothing more than a way to shoot on cheap sets. (They even saved money on locks cause almost none of the prison doors do)

The governors biggest crime (other than the cliche of a pet zombie) is standing with a bunch of other rednecks firing ther unlimited ammo rifles at the the bulletproof gang. Other than that the gov is a total pussy.

Farm girl has lost her will to live cause she got roughed up a little.

And Rick is wandering around as a homeless person seeing Stand like visions and confirming the show is a first person narrative.

Mentat:One Bad Apple: They've been in there for over a week now and they still don't have it secured. There are perimeter breaches they don't even know about. They should have just fortified a "keep" that is locked down tight and draw the Woodbury team in and pick them apart Viet Cong style. WOUND people instead of killing them.

Woodbury itself is an even bigger pillow fort. They don't have enough shooters to man the wall. Send in Michonne nightly and have her come back and start her own Idi Amin memorial severed head aquarium. The population of Woodbury would collapse in panic.

There was too much forced drama tonight. At a time where the group knew they were in danger, they all did the stupidest things possible. Rick went nuts, Maggie started pulling a Lori, Glen went nuts, Darryl and Merle were off wandering around, and no one on watch was actually watching anything. Even by the standards of tv drama, it was too much.

I read a lot of history stuff. A lot of it is war-related. It's actually amazing how many times one side loses a battle for reasons much like the ones you've stated.

One Bad Apple:They've been in there for over a week now and they still don't have it secured. There are perimeter breaches they don't even know about. They should have just fortified a "keep" that is locked down tight and draw the Woodbury team in and pick them apart Viet Cong style. WOUND people instead of killing them.

Woodbury itself is an even bigger pillow fort. They don't have enough shooters to man the wall. Send in Michonne nightly and have her come back and start her own Idi Amin memorial severed head aquarium. The population of Woodbury would collapse in panic.

There was too much forced drama tonight. At a time where the group knew they were in danger, they all did the stupidest things possible. Rick went nuts, Maggie started pulling a Lori, Glen went nuts, Darryl and Merle were off wandering around, and no one on watch was actually watching anything. Even by the standards of tv drama, it was too much.

One Bad Apple:bearcats1983: I'm probably splitting hairs, but wouldn't those rounds go right through Axel into Carol? I'm not 100% on the type of assault rifles used (looked like an M4 and a Steyr Aug?), but it seems like the rounds would be high enough velocity to go through a body.

Any gun nuts (term of endearment...) have an idea?

You'd be right. Either one fires the 5.56 mm NATO standard and a skinny guy like that wouldn't stop a round like that. Hollywood physics.

So, we can suspend disbelief about the existence of zombies, but when a bullet doesn't "act right", we have to have a discussion about it?

They've been in there for over a week now and they still don't have it secured. There are perimeter breaches they don't even know about. They should have just fortified a "keep" that is locked down tight and draw the Woodbury team in and pick them apart Viet Cong style. WOUND people instead of killing them.

Woodbury itself is an even bigger pillow fort. They don't have enough shooters to man the wall. Send in Michonne nightly and have her come back and start her own Idi Amin memorial severed head aquarium. The population of Woodbury would collapse in panic.

psychicdeath99:Eventually Mr. Science is going to figure out the Governor is evil.

I wonder if he was even a real scientist before the zombie apocalypse. I mean, he does seem to have some methodology to his little experiments, but Milton strikes me more as someone with a bachelor's in psychology.

I haven't read the books, so the only frame of reference I have is the show--which is so far a good show. So, pardon me if this ruffles feathers but a possible rest of the season based on the show dynamics so far:

Feeling like he's totally losing it goes into exile, perhaps even self-imposed.

Meet the new ever-suffering voice of reason, now with less Carl-centered hand-wrining.

Guess who finds Rick and helps him come back from insanity and certain death.

"Hey guys."

"Hey Daryl. What happened to Merle?"

"He didn't make it through the expository subplot about redemption and family. How's Glenn doing? His card should be just about punched at this point."

NathanAllen: People who have no problem suspending their disbelief about dead people walking around who only eat living people; and not each other should not be complaining about a gun battle that is only an action sequence and a plot device.

Your understanding of the concepts willing suspension of disbelief and internal consistency seems on par with . Except for the idea that a filing cabinet was going to stop rifle rounds - which I'm willing to chalk up to simple ignorance and overlook -- I didn't have as much of a problem with this episodes "discrepancies" as some others here. But that doesn't change the fact that internal consistency is absolutely vital for a story, regardless of how fantastic that story may be. To quote a better writer than I:

"Readers are able and willing to accept stories in which the fantastical becomes real. Ghosts, magic, vampires, minotaurs, dragons, hobbits, elves, Wookiees - bring it on. But what we cannot abide are stories in which the real becomes unreal.

When young Lucy Pevensie stumbles through a magical wardrobe into an enchanted world of fauns and talking beasts, we readers gladly follow along on her journey. Those fantastic elements of the story don't throw us off. But if, at any point, Lucy Pevensie were to start acting in a way that no young English girl from the 1940s would act, that would cause us as readers to revoke our willing suspension of disbelief. Human readers require human characters to behave in a way that is recognizably human. Readers are not startled at the sight of Tumnus the faun and readers are not shocked when Mrs. Beaver starts to talk. But if Lucy herself had not been startled and shocked by those things, we would have stopped reading right there."

The same is true for physics. We can accept that in a story where physics works differently, anything might be possible - the ability to jump from the top of a building, or to dodge bullets in slow-time are part of what make the Matrix a great movie. But in a story that is set in what is ostensibly the "real" world, we expect things to work in the the way they actually do work in real life.

I disagree with Mentat, but unlike you, I'm at least able to understand what he's saying. With the exception of the zombification -- which is the whole damned premise of the show -- TWD is ostensibly set in the real world. As a result, things that are not directly related to the fantasy premise should work the way they actually do work in the real world - objects fall when they are dropped, people act like actual people, and a team of battle hardened expert shots don't suddenly turn into a bunch of Can't Shoot Losers when it's convenient for the writers.

If Carol has suddenly grown wings and flown up to kill that guy in the tower, would you be here giving us a condescending post about how "People who have no problem suspending their disbelief about dead people walking around who only eat living people; and not each other should not be complaining about characters growing wings and flying" ?

People who have no problem suspending their disbelief about dead people walking around who only eat living people; and not each other should not be complaining about a gun battle that is only an action sequence and a plot device.

timujin:log_jammin: timujin: God I hate that trope so much, the one where only the bad guys can shoot straight. How is it four people with as much experience shooting as these folks have by now couldn't knock off one guy standing out in the open in a tower? Why couldn't Rick hit dude when he was using a scope? How were four guys keeping six people in three different locations covered?

1. because they were also being shot at.The bad guys were being shot at as well, and from more directions

2. while it's just a tv show, it's still slightly more realistic than call of duty.In what way?

3. his scope isn't exactly a sniper scope. It's not made for long distance accuracy like a regular scope on a hunting rifle is. also see 1 and 2.He was shooting at a target that was what, 300' away?

4. two of teh locations were in the same direction, one was just further away.there was still fire coming from three different places, regardless of relative distance

5. (should have been one) the trope is that only the bad guys CAN'T shot straight. see every a-team episode ever made.Both are tropes. And the A-Team couldn't shoot straight either, apparently, they never actually hit anyone, just made their cars explode or lose control in some way guaranteed to make them flip over.

The Governor was firing from the hip and hitting a target about 500' away within a 2' cluster. At the same time, people are shooting at him with scoped rifles and he's not even bothering to hide behind something and they don't even get close to him. It's just poor writing.

fusillade762:MagSeven: It's about internal consistency. I'm able to accept zombies because it's part of the premise.

Barely shooting back if I remember correctly. I don't think the Gov's men started shooting back until well after the smokescreen. Also last time, Rick's group had the surprise element.

Maybe the Governor's men are like reverse vampires? Their super commando powers are only active during the day.

A couple other stray thoughts:

How did the guy in the tower get into the compound? They should be looking for a hole cut in the fence. Also: I couldn't tell where he got shot but isn't he likely to Come Back?

The Governor's headshot on Axel is even more impressive now that I realize he was firing left-handed (looking back at other pics from earlier in the season it looks like he's right-handed). And he's lucky the Steyr Aug can be converted to left-handed firing or he'd be looking at a facefull of brass and probably a broken jaw from the charging handle.

That's a good question. My only theory is yours, that he cut a hole in the fence and snuck in or just climbed it. No one was really on watch and Michonne and Herschel in the yard were pretty preoccupied with watching crazy Rick. They should have had a "first person" view of him getting in though. That would clear up a potential plot hole And believe it or not, I'm pretty sure guard tower guy got conveniently hit in the head! The odds!

unregenerate:And yet the fact that there are zombies doesn't even begin to bother you. It's instead that they don't seem to shoot consistently that ruins your suspension of disbelief.

A show/film/book must follow it's own internal logic. The rules of this universe is that it's the real world that happens to have walking dead wandering around. Within that framework, the zombies are perfectly logical. Now, we could get into an argument that Darabont Era walkers operated by different rules than Mazzarra Era walkers, but as far as walkers themselves, they're just the conceit of the show. Everything else - physics, chemistry, biology - needs to operate by standard rules within narrow limits of artistic freedom. That's why when Herschel starts firing his unlimited ammo shotgun that he swiped from the Army of Darkness set, it detracts from the show. You can still have drama without breaking the rules of the universe, it just requires the writers to be more careful with plot devices and character development. If the writers want to get across that the Grimes Group is so used to dealing with walkers that they aren't prepared to deal with humans, they can't simply make the group suddenly stupid. As someone mentioned above, when this scene happened in the comics, Rick's group decimated the Governor's forces because they were prepared and battle-hardened. That's the group that was presented in the first episode of this season. That's not the group that was attacked at the prison.

MagSeven:It's about internal consistency. I'm able to accept zombies because it's part of the premise.

Barely shooting back if I remember correctly. I don't think the Gov's men started shooting back until well after the smokescreen. Also last time, Rick's group had the surprise element.

Maybe the Governor's men are like reverse vampires? Their super commando powers are only active during the day.

A couple other stray thoughts:

How did the guy in the tower get into the compound? They should be looking for a hole cut in the fence. Also: I couldn't tell where he got shot but isn't he likely to Come Back?

The Governor's headshot on Axel is even more impressive now that I realize he was firing left-handed (looking back at other pics from earlier in the season it looks like he's right-handed). And he's lucky the Steyr Aug can be converted to left-handed firing or he'd be looking at a facefull of brass and probably a broken jaw from the charging handle.

T.M.S.:Secondly, we were promised the Governor and Ninja chick were characters who were going to bring the show into an exciting new direction and help erase the stain of the endless and plodding season on the farm. Instead we got a girl with a sword who seems transported to this place from an entirely different comic book universe and a Governor and his men who are about as dangerous as a particularly overzealous community watch group. (But like I said their combined assault of endless terror did manage to kill ONE guy. So there is hope)

In all fairness, according to the rules of the show that's probably what they are, or at least should be. That would also preclude them taking down a National Guard unit at the beginning of the season, but I suppose we could chalk that up to luck.

Besides farkers who read the comics, was there anyone else promising The Governor or Ninja chick were going to bring the show in an exciting new direction? I haven't been following the press.

About the only good thing that's happened this season is that Lori is dead and Carl isn't a goddamn whiny baby anymore, but that's not a lot to carry a show. And I completely agree that psycho Rick is just a way to fill time with false dramatics. It's almost as annoying as the cliched gibbering woman in a stressful situation. All you want to do is slap the person, and if they don't shape up, kill them. I don't like wanting Rick dead, so they better have him get his shiat together soon.

My only real objection to the prison so far is that it's an easily fortified position to hold, but they didn't bother to do any work on it until right before mustache guy got shot in the head. The writers easily could have worked out the dynamics of being trapped in a prison over the course of the season, but instead they're treating it like "Farm House II - Chain Link Fence Boogaloo."

MagSeven:They were being shot at and Rick's group has almost zero experience shooting at people who shoot back.

People were shooting back during the Woodbury raid and Rick's people did OK. Killed six or so and only lost one.

unregenerate:Bhruic: Ugh. The whole Rick going crazy thing was annoying, but I figured I could power through it. But then the end... I haven't figured out if in this universe, people have some sort of bullet forcefield, or if walkers have some sort of magnet in their heads that draws bullets, but damn. The same people who could run around headshotting zombies across large distances can't hit regular people standing out in the open. Not even moving, or taking cover. Hell, even when they aren't even looking your direction. Absolute suspension of disbelief killer.

I'll give it another show, but if they are going to continue to completely change how the physics of the world works based on what they need for that particular episode, I'm going to be done. Just too frustrating to watch.

And yet the fact that there are zombies doesn't even begin to bother you. It's instead that they don't seem to shoot consistently that ruins your suspension of disbelief.

It's about internal consistency. I'm able to accept zombies because it's part of the premise.

unregenerate:And yet the fact that there are zombies doesn't even begin to bother you. It's instead that they don't seem to shoot consistently that ruins your suspension of disbelief.

Fine, if you want to be picky about it, it ruined my secondary belief, as Tolkien would put it. If you are going to craft a good show (or any other medium, but show for this example), you want it to be internally logically consistent. So yes, it's easy to accept zombies because that's the setting of the world. But what breaks the secondary belief is when activities occur that are not logically consistent. If a group of people are crack shots at one point in time, and then extremely crappy shots at another, that's going to break secondary belief.

It wouldn't make a very dramatic show, but by now shouldn't everybody have figured out to carry around an 8 foot long staff with a pointed end? Seems like that would be a pretty effective walker killer that doesn't run out of ammo

justtray:sirbissel: NeoCortex42: Tencolin: NeoCortex42: Kentucky Fried Children: Axel just revealed he was gonna be a serial killer rapist in early drafts of his TV character... kinda glad they changed it up, less cartooney. And it was fun with him still being a creeper around the ladies, minus the whole RAPE RAPE RAPE thing

There was a lot of internal group strife during the prison arc of the comic that was completely dropped for the TV series. Some of it was good, but I do enjoy that the TV series is really its own thing since it keeps me surprised regularly.

I agree. It's nice being surprised by both the little and large differences. It's cool that he could play such a nice guy who was still creepy. I have to admit that I was always squeamish when he was in a potential position to be near the ladies (and especially Beth).

This is one case where I think knowing how twisted his comic character was made me appreciate the TV version even more.

I don't remember Axel's comic character being particularly twisted. I mean, a little pervy, but not much worse than what I imagine any other prison inmate in a zombie apocalypse being...

You don't remember him chopping up a couple little girls then being executed for it?

Interesting...

Add him to the list of characters they totally screwed up.

That wasn't Axel in the comics who killed the little girls. That was a different character Click for comic spoiler from prison arc The most pervy thing Axel did in the comic was "accidentally" walk in on Carol and Lori in the shower. After that he was harmless.

This show has really gone...i dunno.Season 1 was fantastic then AMC cut the budget like cheap asses and forced Darabont out.In comes Mazzara and season 2 turned into a bad soap opera.Season 3 has been so so though. There are episodes where I think I am watching one of those made for syfy channel movies ( bad acting and visuals ), then there are some legit good episodes.

Majority of it has looked like shoddy production. Last episode was pretty bad in that sense. The mirrored scene with Daryl and his tattoo/scars. To that long shot of the passenger door of the zombie van for 10 seconds before someone finally decide to come out of it. Its like, oh look, we are setting up some type of plot...here it comes..wait....wait some more...wait..ok a body armored person that has the shape of a women ( like they were trying to make us think it was Andrea ).

Or the fact the guy in the tower was standing IN THE OPEN AREA OF THE TOWER. How Maggie was hiding behind...filing cabinets in the middle of the yard for protection against bullets from an AR....

Personally I am glad Mazzara got shiat canned. I am sure this is not what Kirkman wanted out of the past two seasons.

I don't know... jrodr018 is making sense. Its certainly not about "people who have an opinion". Its more about how lame it is to get your jollies out of ONLY sharing negative opinions and making huge deals about small details.

You shouldn't watch the show just to have material to cry about on threads. For instance, how does making the action sequence at the end more realistic advance the plot? Why are people complaining about the physics of situations while zombies themselves are impossible due to thermodynamics? Should the cancel the show because of that? Why does the obvious danger of having a van full of zombies plowed into the base while also engaging in a gun battle have to be explained?

You don't have the slightest idea why I watch the show. You may have found creating your own reasons amusing but you are wrong and it makes it impossible to take you seriously.

Secondly, we were promised the Governor and Ninja chick were characters who were going to bring the show into an exciting new direction and help erase the stain of the endless and plodding season on the farm. Instead we got a girl with a sword who seems transported to this place from an entirely different comic book universe and a Governor and his men who are about as dangerous as a particularly overzealous community watch group. (But like I said their combined assault of endless terror did manage to kill ONE guy. So there is hope)

Those are not "small details" and thinking they are makes it impossible to take you seriously.

Lastly, you do realize its just a tv show? You are allowed to like it in spite of other people's opinions. Fretting about what other people say makes it impossible to take you seriously.

Crewmannumber6:After getting into the show, I started reading the comics, I hate them. The show is much better when you're not burdened with fanboy expectations you don't know how good it could have been.

There, FTFY. The comics have problems but the actual story told in them beats the living shiat out of what has aired on AMC. Period.

You guys are letting hollywood and video games color your opinions on how a firefight should or should not look. Yes. There is a HUGE difference between shooting at zombies, and shooting at someone who is shooting back. Yes even if you are both stationary. I dont know the exact number but ive seen statistics where in current and past wars that soldiers would fire tens or hundreds of thousands of rounds for every one kill made. And that is among men who are highly trained to handle those situations with those weapons. When you got bulkets whizzing by your head, shiat gets real messy real fast.

So sure, by season 3 ep. 1, they were zombie killing machines. They had a lot of experience with it. Guess what they had almost zero experience with? Being shot AT. Worrying about cover. Or vantage points. Or flanking maneuvers. Or anything associated with an actual firefight. The few guys who DID have experience either werebt there or cut off from the rest and left highly exposed.

Mentat:And lest it look like I'm just mindlessly biatching, this is how I would have constructed the battle:

Dispense with the Ghost Lori and Maggie = Lori 2.0 subplots. If you need to establish that Rick is going crazy, have him talk into the Lori Phone. Bring Tyreese's group into the fold. Have Glenn step up as a leader in the absence of Darryl. Have the group revert to their killing machine mode and begin preparing the prison for an assault. And I don't mean putting up a few tables and pallets, but actually assessing defenses, drilling, etc. Play on the conceptions of the group that were established in the first episode of Season 3. Let the group and the audience believe that the group is ready for anything and then rip that foundation out from under them during the actual attack. Lead off with the van full of walkers. While the group is distracted, have the Governor attack and kill Axel and some of Tyreese's red shirts. Suddenly the group is in disarray. Their cohesion breaks. They know they're beaten, the Governor knows they're beaten, the audience knows they're beaten.

Same story, same result, no Reverse Stormtrooper Effect, no situational stupidity.

Governor gets tortured by Michone. In retaliation, he convinces the town they should attack the prison because of how sick they are and what they did to him. ~20 rag tag governor led civilians attack the prison only to find that Rick's group (and Andrea sniping from the watchtower - irony) decimate them, forcing a humiliating retreat.

THEN Rick's group decides to retaliate as the best defense is a good offense.

The concept was there, but yet again, the comic was far superior to the stupid show.

And lest it look like I'm just mindlessly biatching, this is how I would have constructed the battle:

Dispense with the Ghost Lori and Maggie = Lori 2.0 subplots. If you need to establish that Rick is going crazy, have him talk into the Lori Phone. Bring Tyreese's group into the fold. Have Glenn step up as a leader in the absence of Darryl. Have the group revert to their killing machine mode and begin preparing the prison for an assault. And I don't mean putting up a few tables and pallets, but actually assessing defenses, drilling, etc. Play on the conceptions of the group that were established in the first episode of Season 3. Let the group and the audience believe that the group is ready for anything and then rip that foundation out from under them during the actual attack. Lead off with the van full of walkers. While the group is distracted, have the Governor attack and kill Axel and some of Tyreese's red shirts. Suddenly the group is in disarray. Their cohesion breaks. They know they're beaten, the Governor knows they're beaten, the audience knows they're beaten.

Same story, same result, no Reverse Stormtrooper Effect, no situational stupidity.

Mentat:Deacon Blue: Late to the thread, but I'd like to weigh in saying that The Walking Dead is an awesome show. Is is perfect? No. But it beats the hell out of CSI and all that other crap that's so popular. And as for the characters doing stupid things, well they would do stupid things. They were just regular people thrust into the worst kind of apocalypse, and the mistakes they make, and the dumb crap they get up to, make them seem like real people. As for Rick going batshiat, well, look at the pressure he's been under since day one, and it's been what, about a year since day one?

The problem is that the first episode of the third season established the group as an efficient killing machine that trusted each other implicitly. That's all fallen apart since they entered the prison. I would understand it if this were the camp or the farm, but at this point in their development, they shouldn't be making these kinds of mistakes. They aren't regular people anymore. That's supposed to be the difference between the prison group and Woodbury. I think they could have achieved the same end in this episode without all of the characters going emo and wandering off when they knew an enemy was coming.

They're also very, very tired. And the group dynamic that kept them going has been shattered with the loss of T-Dog and Lori, as well as Hershel's crippling injury. Rick got them through the winter, and now he's gone insane. They're simply falling apart.

Ugh. The whole Rick going crazy thing was annoying, but I figured I could power through it. But then the end... I haven't figured out if in this universe, people have some sort of bullet forcefield, or if walkers have some sort of magnet in their heads that draws bullets, but damn. The same people who could run around headshotting zombies across large distances can't hit regular people standing out in the open. Not even moving, or taking cover. Hell, even when they aren't even looking your direction. Absolute suspension of disbelief killer.

I'll give it another show, but if they are going to continue to completely change how the physics of the world works based on what they need for that particular episode, I'm going to be done. Just too frustrating to watch.

Even more ludicrousness is the fact that in spite of nearly every conflict quickly turning into hand to hand combat (and in spite of each one of them having an unlimited ammo weapon) not a single character carries so much as a spatula to ward off zombies. Remember two seasons ago when the kid found what he described as an "arsenal" of bladed weapons? And each member of the cast carried one?

I guess the Fiskars Cutlery Company only paid for one season of product placement. But they sure got their money's worth. The scene where the machetes and axes were handed out one by one was particularly amusing. Those weapons seemed so important at the time.

That was dumb. Our prison heroes should have easily killed the van driver at the very least. How are we supposed to root for these dumb-asses when they're so utterly incompetent?

It's getting to the point that I want to see them all get eaten because they are clearly demonstrating that they're all completely unfit to survive a zombie apocalypse (well, except for Darryl).

They know the governor is coming for them and yet don't bother to set a lookout on the tower, their only able-bodied male abandons them on a RAGE-misson, and then they let a hostile climb their own tower. Morans! They're still acting like Camp Dinner Bell from season one.

And now Maggie is an unsympathetic mood-swinging irrational biatch-harpy. Yay Lori 2.0.

I still enjoyed the zombie kills and Andrew Lincoln's performance. I love hating this stupid show.

timujin:God I hate that trope so much, the one where only the bad guys can shoot straight. How is it four people with as much experience shooting as these folks have by now couldn't knock off one guy standing out in the open in a tower? Why couldn't Rick hit dude when he was using a scope? How were four guys keeping six people in three different locations covered?

1. because they were also being shot at.2. while it's just a tv show, it's still slightly more realistic than call of duty.3. his scope isn't exactly a sniper scope. It's not made for long distance accuracy like a regular scope on a hunting rifle is. also see 1 and 2.4. two of teh locations were in the same direction, one was just further away.5. (should have been one) the trope is that only the bad guys CAN'T shot straight. see every a-team episode ever made.

Character building = death. It's why Michonne is such a great survivor. She never says anything, doesn't tell anyone about herself. She'll never die that way. Meth boy starts talking, tells Carol about his life, and that was the end of it.

flamingboar:Idiot coworker would not STFU tonight when I tried to watch so I have a few questions.

1. Where did the scars on Daryl's back come from?2. What happened to the driver of the zombie delivery bus?3. What happened to the henchman with the backwards hat who was shooting at Rick in the woods?

Thanks!

1) Ostensibly the scars were from Daddy beating on him as a kid - he blames Merle in part for ditching him at a young age, so he was the only one to take Dad's rage-beatings2) Undetermined, last we saw she ran off-screen past the zombie Fedex-mobile3) He's the Gov's right-hand man since Merle is gone, although I don't recall seeing it I assume he jumped into the truck with the Gov as they went back to Woodbury

The shootout in the prison was just bad. Too many suspensions of belief.

First of all, nobody at all notices some guy climbing in the tower right in front of them. Ok, so nobody was on guard duty. Fine.

Then you've got Rick lying on his hip in the grass with an ACOG M4 and he's taking those terrible shots and hitting nothing?

5.56 peppering Dead Mustache Guy and not killing Carol?

Maggie and Carl shooting from the hip while running to cover, then Maggie taking all those excruciatingly bad shots with the scoped M16. I mean wow, let's use up all of our bullets while not aiming.

The Governor was wide open the entire time with that unscoped bullpup rifle. Nobody got a shot on him, at all.

I get it they were taken by surprise, but c'mon, this group is also supposed to be battle hardened after living on the road for months against zombies. They looked like idiots that had to be saved by Darryl and Merle. Oh, now I get it.

BTW, what is so scary about the yard full of zombies? Didn't they clear the prison already by just baiting them to the fence and and stabbing them one by one? They have Michonne this time, she can rampage with her blade.

Deacon Blue:Late to the thread, but I'd like to weigh in saying that The Walking Dead is an awesome show. Is is perfect? No. But it beats the hell out of CSI and all that other crap that's so popular. And as for the characters doing stupid things, well they would do stupid things. They were just regular people thrust into the worst kind of apocalypse, and the mistakes they make, and the dumb crap they get up to, make them seem like real people. As for Rick going batshiat, well, look at the pressure he's been under since day one, and it's been what, about a year since day one?

The problem is that the first episode of the third season established the group as an efficient killing machine that trusted each other implicitly. That's all fallen apart since they entered the prison. I would understand it if this were the camp or the farm, but at this point in their development, they shouldn't be making these kinds of mistakes. They aren't regular people anymore. That's supposed to be the difference between the prison group and Woodbury. I think they could have achieved the same end in this episode without all of the characters going emo and wandering off when they knew an enemy was coming.

Late to the thread, but I'd like to weigh in saying that The Walking Dead is an awesome show. Is is perfect? No. But it beats the hell out of CSI and all that other crap that's so popular. And as for the characters doing stupid things, well they would do stupid things. They were just regular people thrust into the worst kind of apocalypse, and the mistakes they make, and the dumb crap they get up to, make them seem like real people. As for Rick going batshiat, well, look at the pressure he's been under since day one, and it's been what, about a year since day one?

/I'm glad Daryl is back, and that he brought Merle with him. The writers can do a lot with Merle. Asshole that will cause problems within the group, and until the group 86's the Governor, there's always the chance he'll betray them.//This show is good stuff, guys. Just enjoy it for what it is.

NeoCortex42:Hey, where were Tyreese and his crew during the shootout? Are they still being kept locked up?

TWD writers can only focus on two story lines at a time. Since Daryl and Merle were in this episode, it wasn't possible to include Tyrese and his crew. They will come back next week and you'll be asking about Daryl and Merle, but that issue won't get resolved until the following week.

So to answer your question - yes, they were locked up. This will be addressed with a throwaway line in the next episode to let everyone know they heard the gunfight, and then no one will ever speak of it again.

Axel just revealed he was gonna be a serial killer rapist in early drafts of his TV character... kinda glad they changed it up, less cartooney. And it was fun with him still being a creeper around the ladies, minus the whole RAPE RAPE RAPE thing

I'm probably splitting hairs, but wouldn't those rounds go right through Axel into Carol? I'm not 100% on the type of assault rifles used (looked like an M4 and a Steyr Aug?), but it seems like the rounds would be high enough velocity to go through a body.

So half the group is out on walkabout and the other half don't notice a strange car drive up or a strange person someone getting into the guard tower. Yeah, I think I'd take my chances with Merle out in the wilderness.

NeoCortex42:FunkOut: Mad_Radhu: Tencolin: psychicdeath99: Eventually Mr. Science is going to figure out the Governor is evil.

I wonder if he was even a real scientist before the zombie apocalypse. I mean, he does seem to have some methodology to his little experiments, but Milton strikes me more as someone with a bachelor's in psychology.

I see him as the kind of guy who would create a 13 month calendar full of new age bullshiat.

I see him as the guy who taught grade 5 and wasn't very good at it.

He's the Walking Dead's version of Dr. Arzt. Hope he doesn't handle any dynamite.

Heh. Poor Milton. I want to see more of his asinine zombie experiments before he goes all Arzt.

FunkOut:Mad_Radhu: Tencolin: psychicdeath99: Eventually Mr. Science is going to figure out the Governor is evil.

I wonder if he was even a real scientist before the zombie apocalypse. I mean, he does seem to have some methodology to his little experiments, but Milton strikes me more as someone with a bachelor's in psychology.

I see him as the kind of guy who would create a 13 month calendar full of new age bullshiat.

I see him as the guy who taught grade 5 and wasn't very good at it.

He's the Walking Dead's version of Dr. Arzt. Hope he doesn't handle any dynamite.

Nina_Hartley's_Ass:megalynn44: It's even advertising the new episode of Walking Dead tonight at 9/8 central. What in the ever living shiat?

west coast feed? recording? anaconda was on earlier.

I'm in the Central time zone but have a pretty shiatty cable provider (only one available). Our DVR says Walking Dead is on right now, but like I said, Anaconda just started instead. We can't record it later. Sunday night DVR recordings are a stack of cards. You shift things and EVERYTHING COLLAPSES! farking hell.

justtray:This show just sucks now. Maybe I should keep a list of characters they've totally ruined;

DaleLori (kind of sucked in the comic too)AndreaThe GovernorTyrese*Rick*

* because they're trying to ruin them

Per what I implied earlier (and this has nothing to do with the comics):

Dale:

Made this face one too many times on his long spiral into complete uselessness.Annoying scale-- 10 Result: Horrible death.

Lori:

Fate was sealed from this exact point, anyway, but expertise in repeatedly losing her child without having to face any outraged judgment was the big loud boring cherry on top.Annoyance scale--9 (-1 for realistic and accessible hotness) Result: Gut wrenchingly horrific death

"My annoying wife's dead, I killed my best friend, my little brat turned into a sociopathic force of death, I sawed that judgmental veterinarian's foot off, and I kept Glenn alive just long enough to outstay his welcome. WTF can you possibly want from me?"

I have heard that the show has been consistently and dramatically different than the books, which makes a discussion of them moot. I'm not sure how things worked in them, but it is apparent that in the televised Walking Dead universe, life expectancy is directly related to boring screentime, and annoyance level is directly related to the brutality involved in killing said character off. If that's not a show that cares about its audience, I don't know what is.

NeoCortex42:Mentat: NeoCortex42: I don't think they've totally ruined the Governor. I think the show version of him is fine. Tyreese hasn't been around long enough to say whether or not the show version is worse/better than the comic version.

Andrea is the worst adaptation from the comic. I guess some of her traits shifted towards Carol, but it still would have been nice to have the badass sniper from the comic.

The Governor in the comics was too much of a sadistic Snidely Whiplash. I think they've done a much better job with the show version. They ruined Lori though. After last season, they had no choice but to kill the character because it was impossible to take her seriously anymore.

Comic Lori wasn't that much better. Offing her in the comic was just as necessary.

One Bad Apple:Comic book Darryl and Merle were better than TV show Darryl and Merle

Mentat:NeoCortex42: I don't think they've totally ruined the Governor. I think the show version of him is fine. Tyreese hasn't been around long enough to say whether or not the show version is worse/better than the comic version.

Andrea is the worst adaptation from the comic. I guess some of her traits shifted towards Carol, but it still would have been nice to have the badass sniper from the comic.

The Governor in the comics was too much of a sadistic Snidely Whiplash. I think they've done a much better job with the show version. They ruined Lori though. After last season, they had no choice but to kill the character because it was impossible to take her seriously anymore.

Comic Lori wasn't that much better. Offing her in the comic was just as necessary.

NeoCortex42:I don't think they've totally ruined the Governor. I think the show version of him is fine. Tyreese hasn't been around long enough to say whether or not the show version is worse/better than the comic version.

Andrea is the worst adaptation from the comic. I guess some of her traits shifted towards Carol, but it still would have been nice to have the badass sniper from the comic.

The Governor in the comics was too much of a sadistic Snidely Whiplash. I think they've done a much better job with the show version. They ruined Lori though. After last season, they had no choice but to kill the character because it was impossible to take her seriously anymore.

justtray:This show just sucks now. Maybe I should keep a list of characters they've totally ruined;

DaleLori (kind of sucked in the comic too)AndreaThe GovernorTyrese*Rick*

* because they're trying to ruin them

It's hard to say the show has been ruined given the massive ratings, but I do wonder if the overall quality is suffering from the turnover in showrunners. Darabont was doing some really interesting and innovative things in the first season until interference from AMC led to the weaknesses of season 2. Mazzara got the show back on track but in the process made it more formulaic. I have no idea what the next guy is going to do, but I fear it's going to end up like the comics where it becomes so nihilistic that the audience just gets tired of it. It seems they write themselves into corners with characters and then take the easy way out by killing them off. Still love the show, but I wonder how much more staying power it has after this season.