holdingoutforjacob wrote:I'm going to be really annoying and say that, IMO, Taylor Lautner is WAY more attractive than Robert Pattinson. I got my issue of Rolling Stone with him on the cover today and couldn't breathe. No lie. But that's clearly NOT why I like the character of Jacob better!!!

I do like what Jacob represents better than Edward though. Wolves are designed for protection, to keep bad things away. I like that, I need that. I also like the idea of Jacob as the sun, the warmth, a simple, understated love. It's really really just a personal preference thing for me, in terms of Jacob vs. Edward.

Yeah, I can definitely clarify that, I knew I'd need to. What I mean is that the enmity between them is not felt as strongly by vampires as it is by wolves. The Cullens look down upon the wolves, for sure. But that's all, really. Whereas the wolves, or the Quileutes, have a fierce prejudice against the "Cold Ones" who did them so much harm. So, the Pack has made the Cullens their sworn enemies, but the Cullens don't have that same ingrained distrust and hatred. Does that make sense? I'm sorry I'm so bad at explaining myself!

You are absolutely right in that the second half of Eclipse sees a huge "bettering" of Edward's attitude towards the Pack. It's just that Jacob can't see this, because Edward and Jacob aren't together in any sort of companionable way again. The tent scene is a start, but obviously that gets fouled up too! That's not to say this change in Edward isn't important - it allows for the co-existance in battle and the subsequent bond in New Moon. The sending of the invitation is one of my favorite things that Edward does, btw.

Edward did not despise Jacob as a personal thing, you're right. But Jacob did despise Edward as a personal thing. Everything I said in my previous post was from Jacob's POV, with his knowledge, how he would perceive Edward's actions. Make more sense now? The Edward driving thing could be interpreted as Edward still doesn't trust him enough to let Bella drive there on her own. Based off the previous experiences, if I were Jacob, I'd go with that. Again, he doesn't know what went down between Bella and Edward after she runs away to see him you know? The pairing with the tribe was to fight off a common enemy out of necessity, so I'm not sure that Jacob would take that as a softening towards him by Edward, especially after the previous events. I think the real turning point was the invitation.

I never thought of Edward interpreting Alice's loss of vision of Bella as her being in danger, rather, he knew it was just because of the wolves, but thought it dangerous that he couldn't see her at all times. You could be right though.

I want to point something out that you may not be aware of. In "Being Jacob Black" (it's like a Jacob fan's bible, so much information!) he says in the beginning how he feels bad for Edward, having to interrupt during the prom in Twilight. It's when he sees what's happened to Bella in New Moon that that loathing starts, and I don't think it can stop until Bella's safe and he no longer loves her, as much as they begin to work through it during BD.

Oh, in the grand scheme of things, Seth's reaction carries a HUGE significance. I just mean in terms of relations between Edward and Jacob. So there's not much else to say there except that I agree! I don't think there has ever been a precedent for this, actually.

I think that they're both equally attractive as young gentlemen. What I particularly admire about Rob is his intriguing facial structure. In my opinion, Taylor Lautner doesn't have Rob's slightly enchanting quality due to his rather mysterious face. Rather, Taylor has a more “typical” type of beauty, if you understand my meaning. He is beautiful, yes, but his beauty isn’t as poetic as Rob’s face. All fans should be able to agree that Taylor and Rob were both fascinating in Rolling Stone and Vanity Fair, respectively.

I do like what Jacob represents better than Edward though. Wolves are designed for protection, to keep bad things away. I like that, I need that. I also like the idea of Jacob as the sun, the warmth, a simple, understated love. It's really really just a personal preference thing for me, in terms of Jacob vs. Edward.

I do believe that Edward represents a simple love, which is shown when he is alone with Bella. Of course, he’s only described to be anything but simplistic due to the fact that our main descriptions of him come from Bella’s specific POV, which is hardly objective. Edward was a mortal from a quieter, more restrained culture with a conservative outlook on romance, which is why he insists on having a proper “courtship” with Bella. Their relationship’s progression is undoubtedly old-fashioned.

Yeah, I can definitely clarify that, I knew I'd need to. What I mean is that the enmity between them is not felt as strongly by vampires as it is by wolves. The Cullens look down upon the wolves, for sure. But that's all, really. Whereas the wolves, or the Quileutes, have a fierce prejudice against the "Cold Ones" who did them so much harm. So, the Pack has made the Cullens their sworn enemies, but the Cullens don't have that same ingrained distrust and hatred. Does that make sense? I'm sorry I'm so bad at explaining myself!

Yes, that does make sense. Thanks for the clarification.

Perhaps this ingrained distrust and hatred extended to all vampires? I do believe that Jacob was slightly prejudiced against the Cullens, despite the fact that they were as gracious as any human could be, due to his specific upbringing. He couldn't acknowledge the humanity beneath their unusually pale exterior, and so he believed that Bella would no longer retain what he loved the most about her after the transformation. Renesmee, the daughter of his "enemy" and a supposedly dangerous representation of what he loathed the most about Bella's pairing with Edward, also represented the turning point for his views about how pure and wholesome certain immortals could be, I think.

(Incidentally, I’m looking forward to seeing music legend Peter Murphy as the “Cold One” who is responsible for this aforementioned enmity between the shapeshifters and vampires. That was always a fascinating section for me in Eclipse.)

Oh, in the grand scheme of things, Seth's reaction carries a HUGE significance. I just mean in terms of relations between Edward and Jacob. So there's not much else to say there except that I agree! I don't think there has ever been a precedent for this, actually.

Seth’s reaction could have convinced Jacob that proper interaction was possible between his kind and the “filthy bloodsuckers”, as he would say. He seemed to be concerned about losing Bella, which would result in the shattering of their friendship. However, the bond that burgeoned between Seth and Edward directly contradicted Jacob’s belief that he would be left in the dark due to his obligation to regard any vampire with neutral indifference until given a reason to do otherwise.

Jacob should have been a bit more curious, but he was able to change his ways during the events of Breaking Dawn.

Edward driving thing could be interpreted as Edward still doesn't trust him enough to let Bella drive there on her own. Based off the previous experiences, if I were Jacob, I'd go with that. Again, he doesn't know what went down between Bella and Edward after she runs away to see him you know? The pairing with the tribe was to fight off a common enemy out of necessity, so I'm not sure that Jacob would take that as a softening towards him by Edward, especially after the previous events. I think the real turning point was the invitation.

I think that this was due to Edward misinterpreting Alice's inability to see Bella's future after the reservation. That could have meant death and the subsequent blackening of her mind. Then again, Edward was able to change his ways.

EDIT: Strangely enough, I believe that the most compelling story of leaving behind humanity didn't come from Jacob's effort, but from the heartbreaking story of Rosalie's mortal life before everything came crashing down. After that, I strongly believe that Bella was able to take a hard look at what she was leaving behind to become Rosalie's "sister", so to say.

swedishskinjer wrote:I do believe that Edward represents a simple love, which is shown when he is alone with Bella. Of course, he’s only described to be anything but simplistic due to the fact that our main descriptions of him come from Bella’s specific POV, which is hardly objective. Edward was a mortal from a quieter, more restrained culture with a conservative outlook on romance, which is why he insists on having a proper “courtship” with Bella. Their relationship’s progression is undoubtedly old-fashioned.

Really? I think it's completely the opposite and I think the last thing Bella describes him as is anything to do with simple. There are a ton of layers to the love between her and Edward, when on the other hand if she was with Jake--if he was her only love--the only thing she'd have to do is love him. As mentioned before "as easy as breathing". I only see her love with Edward as complicated and that is why you know they are fated to be together because if they weren't, neither would put up with it.

Here's a quote from Eclipse that makes me wonder if Jacob's repeated attempts to present the alternative to Bella are heavily influenced by his own feelings for her: Eclipse Chap. 14, pg. 321: I'm in love with you Bella. Bella, I love you. And I want you to choose me instead of him. - Jacob Black

Jazz Girl - I love your thoughts on how embracing immortality doesn't necessarily mean that Bella will be "dead" in any way. Vampires are still sentient beings that think and feel, perhaps with even more understanding than humans. They simply lack certain functions that are necessary for humans to survive, but experienced vampires are hardly inhuman creatures themselves.

As I said, Jacob seems to be bragging about the benefits of possessing the "wolf gene" in New Moon: healing, speed, heat, and other such enhancements. Despite his status as an "enchanted human" who has at chance at immortality, Jacob is still himself. That's why I wonder if he had to block his mind from acknowledging the basic humanity in vampires.

^^ I don't think anyone would argue that Jacob's attempts aren't influenced by his own feelings, and he definitely wants her to be with him over Edward, because he is in love with her, but his ultimate goal, even beyond that, is for her to choose humanity.

I absolutely agree that life as a vampire is still life.

swedishskinjer wrote:I do believe that Edward represents a simple love, which is shown when he is alone with Bella. Of course, he’s only described to be anything but simplistic due to the fact that our main descriptions of him come from Bella’s specific POV, which is hardly objective. Edward was a mortal from a quieter, more restrained culture with a conservative outlook on romance, which is why he insists on having a proper “courtship” with Bella. Their relationship’s progression is undoubtedly old-fashioned.

Really? I guess I don't see "old-fashioned" and simple as synonymous. Their relationship is fraught with tensions and drama and obstacles. I don't see that as simple. Plus, their speech to each other, particularly Edward's is so flowery, whereas Jacob's more plainspoken, less brooding, etc.

swedishskinjer wrote:Yes, that does make sense. Thanks for the clarification.

Perhaps this ingrained distrust and hatred extended to all vampires? I do believe that Jacob was slightly prejudiced against the Cullens, despite the fact that they were as gracious as any human could be, due to his specific upbringing. He couldn't acknowledge the humanity beneath their unusually pale exterior, and so he believed that Bella would no longer retain what he loved the most about her after the transformation. Renesmee, the daughter of his "enemy" and a supposedly dangerous representation of what he loathed the most about Bella's pairing with Edward, also represented the turning point for his views about how pure and wholesome certain immortals could be, I think.

(Incidentally, I’m looking forward to seeing music legend Peter Murphy as the “Cold One” who is responsible for this aforementioned enmity between the shapeshifters and vampires. That was always a fascinating section for me in Eclipse.)

Yeah, that ingrained hatred extended to all vampires. I think we see that pretty clearly. Also, I never denied that Jacob was prejudiced against the vampires, and that he couldn't shake that feeling until Nessie.

swedishskinjer wrote:Seth’s reaction could have convinced Jacob that proper interaction was possible between his kind and the “filthy bloodsuckers”, as he would say. He seemed to be concerned about losing Bella, which would result in the shattering of their friendship. However, the bond that burgeoned between Seth and Edward directly contradicted Jacob’s belief that he would be left in the dark due to his obligation to regard any vampire with neutral indifference until given a reason to do otherwise.

Jacob should have been a bit more curious, but he was able to change his ways during the events of Breaking Dawn.

But why should Jacob have been more curious? If it was a personal matter between Edward and Jacob - which I believe it was, I believe that Jacob's hatred of Edward extended far beyond a simple "race" issue - then Seth's relationship would have no bearing on Jacob's.

Also, Jacob's fear was that Bella wouldn't still be Bella, anymore. Plus, the members of the Pack disapprove of Seth's feelings towards the vampires.

Besides, remember that Jacob, in Breaking Dawn, made a huge effort to be respectful and polite to all the Cullens, usually including Edward, with the exception of Rosalie. Previously, he had had no interaction with the rest of them besides Alice, and she showed him nothing but disdain and dismissal in New Moon, understandably so, but still. In Ethics, in Eclipse, he mentions how good Carlisle is to him. To me, that shows that he does try to move beyond the "race" thing except in Edward's case, because he has a personal thing against Edward.

swedishskinjer wrote:I think that this was due to Edward misinterpreting Alice's inability to see Bella's future after the reservation. That could have meant death and the subsequent blackening of her mind. Then again, Edward was able to change his ways.

But Alice knew after the cliff-jumping episode in New Moon that the reason Bella disappeared was due to the wolves. That's why she disappeared when she jumped off the cliff, Alice saw her struggling and then it went black - because Jacob saved her.

swedishskinjer wrote:EDIT: Strangely enough, I believe that the most compelling story of leaving behind humanity didn't come from Jacob's effort, but from the heartbreaking story of Rosalie's mortal life before everything came crashing down. After that, I strongly believe that Bella was able to take a hard look at what she was leaving behind to become Rosalie's "sister", so to say.

Really? What shows you that, in the story? Or is that a personal assertion? Because I see Bella listening to that, and being saddened by Rosalie's pain, but not dissuaded, not shaken, not tying it to her life at all. Whereas Jacob's efforts make her consider what she could have had, acknowledge that she wanted it, and then mourn the loss of it.

I think that Rosalie's story doesn't accomplish that because Rosalie is saying that Bella will be giving up that picture-perfect family. However, Bella can only see that family with Edward, at this point. So actually, when she changes, she'll be gaining what Rosalie has lost.

Ok,I just can't sit back and have people say things that are so wrong and have not pointing out their flaws. SorryBut most people who would meet Jacob and knew he could be a wolf would not say do like what Jacob represents better than Edward though. Wolves are designed for protection, to keep bad things away. I like that, I need that. I also like the idea of Jacob as the sun, the warmth, a simple, understated love. It's really really just \Pure wolves can never be fully trusted with children because, unlike dogs, they lack any alteration of their predatory behavior. These behaviors are genetically encoded and thus cannot be eliminated by socialization or training. At best, these inherent behaviours can only be suppressed.[5] Wolves have a strong incentive to rise up the pack hierarchy, as only the dominant pair may breed, thus they will instinctively challenge their owner for pack status after reaching adult age.[1] In the wild, wolves usually disperse from their pack upon reaching adulthood, but as this is mostly impossible in captivity, conflict avoidance behaviour is not an option. In such scenarios, it is not unusual for wolves to attack their owners or pen mates.[1] Some wildlife centres housing captive wolves prohibit handlers from entering wolf enclosures if If you go by the truth then Jacob would not ever be trusted so don't compare Jacobs great line because it just isn't so . Wolves are unpredictable and Jacob is so hot to get angry that yes he does fit with the wolves. Jacob wants to dominate Bella's life by refusing to acknowledge the love Bella has for Edward. Instead of needling her all the time about how 'BAD" Edward is for her where was her best friend ? out to lunch?The only thing Edward wants is Bella's happiness. The only thing Jacob wants is Bella. Edward was willing to uproot his whole family to keep her safe, Jacob is willing to talk. Doing is more than saying. Edward would be willing to let Bella marry jacob if that is what she wanted. Jacob did no such thing and stuck his nose into Bella's personal life as usual and made a scene almost phasing because of his temper. What would Billy or all the humans do if that happened?So now on to the The Cullens look down upon the wolves that is not true at all, they just stink in the odor part and not one of the Cullens ever tried to gang up on Jacob for his relationship with their brothers girlfriend. Sam wanted to kill when Bella first came home from the honeymoon. Never in ANY of the books did the Cullens or Edward talk the way Jacob and the pack did about them. The Edward driving thing could be interpreted as Edward still doesn't trust him enough to let Bella drive there on her own. Based off the previous experiences, if I were Jacob, I'd go with that. Again, he doesn't know what went down between Bella and Edward after she runs away to see him you know?Little Red Riding Hood is a good example, a wolf in sheeps cloths. Or we can just take it out of the book and the name is EMILY how quickly we forget that, how quickly we for get that Jacob was not under control even in the first part of BD.So Edward was doing the right thing. All Bella had to do is yell at Jacob about what he was saying about Edward and maybe Bella would have 'been mauled by a bear" As for Taylor and Rob that is so not with this discussion, your taste is fine with you but do you feel the need to let your personal opinion on someone's looks judge your mind? i will not stoop to say any more because it shouldn't be here anywayBella looked at Edward and saw the man she loved more than life and could not live with out EdwardBella looked at Jacob as a friend,a best friend,but was let down by his hatred for the man she loved more than him. Jacob never had a chance with Bella, she told him more than once that too. But Bella's choice wasn't a concern for jacob.

Well, Diane, I take issue with several of your statements, but my biggest disagreement is comparing Jacob to an animal. Jacob is not a "wolf," he's a Quileute with the werewolf gene, and he and the other "shape-shifters" are designed for one purpose only: protection of the tribe. Of course they're safe with children! What about Quil and Claire? (Yes, Quil was imprinted, but he wouldn't have harmed a hair on Claire's head even if he wasn't. I probably wouldn't have so much trust in someone like Paul, though!)

Something occurred to me while I read through the posts: the attitude of the other vampires towards Jacob in Breaking Dawn is significant. Bella described them as amazingly tolerant, like the way humans who didn't like animals treated their friends' dogs. Clearly, the Quileutes had an incredible amount of anger and hatred towards all vampires (setting aside the whole "working together" incident in Eclipse). The Vampires did not reciprocate; they only counter-attacked the wolves.

I don't think anyone was letting Taylor and Rob color their perceptions of the characters . . . HOFJ in particular has been posting essentially the same points of view for years! Much longer than Taylor's been around. (BTW holdingoutforjacob, I have noticed a significant increase in your ability to debate!)

I was replying to a post about Jacob being represented as a wolf. As always you take the good traits and leave out the rest, well real wolves do not do act that way, and for me to point it out is accceptable. I am not going to justify some other person way when they diminish one charactor only to build up the other with nontruths. Why is it acceptalbe for all vampires to be bloodsuckers, murderers,... and Jacob is a 'good " wolf ? My comparison to him as a wolf, was that wolves can not be trusted and that is my POV when it comes to Jacob and I do have the right to feel like that. Don't compare or make them into something that they are not. POINT IS if the Pack is good and like a good wolf, Then you MUST come to the same conclusion about the Cullens and vampires. Yet I fail to see that being addressed. So I pointed that out using the wolf, as the inference just as the person used it in her POV. Debating is good, but be careful when expressing an opinion, and stating it as a fact when it is not.

We are all stating the facts as we see them, and we can all be generous in our disagreements--because, as you have pointed out, we are all entitled to our opinions.

I have a hard time characterizing Jacob as "bad" and the Cullens as "good"--or visa versa. In situations as complicated as this love triangle, everyone makes mistakes, and no one gets off scott free.

Personally, I don't feel like the Cullens have been villified on this thread (though I have to admit to skimming some of the arguments). But if you feel the Cullens are being unfairly criticized, by all means share an alternate opinion about how you see them.

I have to say I will always be kinda split up on either being Team Edward or Team Jacob. But, in my opinion, everything about Edward radiates coldness. While everything about Jacob radiates warmth. Jacob is a warm person I think. He really cares for Bella and he wouldn't give up at all. I like that, he didn't just stop when she made her feelings clear. I really respect that I guess.

It seems we have discussed the previous questions thoroughly, unless someone else has a clarification question or follow up question to the previous discussion.

How about a new question?? At the end of Breaking Dawn, we are left with the Cullens staying in Forks for the time being it seems (or is my interpretation). However, it was stated that Carlisle has been practicing there for a while and they may need to move on if people start to feel suspicious with his lack of aging. With Jacob being imprinted with Renesmee, how will this work? Will Edward, Bella and Renesmee remain so Jacob can stay with the pack, or since Jacob is the Alpha of his own pack, will he travel with the Cullens? What do you think he would prefer? Remember, this is the Jacob Thread so we need to keep this to what you feel Jacob would choose and why, what elements might influence his preferences.

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