(13-09-2012 03:02 PM)Internet Mullah Wrote: First of all, dear Bucky, Muhammad didn't have to know about the origins and the historical development of Yahweh because Yahweh was not the original god of the Jews in the first place (according to later historical research). Yahweh originated from Sumerian belief system and thus it was not a monotheistic god. And you have already acknowledged that this is true, right? Secondly, as I said in my refutation of your post, the Arab Jews and Christians of that time (and even today) used to say "Allah" for God. And "Allah" simply means "God" in the Arabic language. So, Muhammad doesn't have to know anything about Yahweh because Yahweh was not the god of the Jews, but came from a different religion. And the Hebrew word for God is "Elah," and in Biblical Aramaic, it is "Alaha," and this was known to Muhammad just by what he heard from the Arabic-speaking Jews and Christians of his time.

This paragraph doesn't make sense.
a. Yahweh did develop from the Sumerian system, but was conflated with the Elohim, (originally a council), and then "named" as an "Elohim", (which meant "their personal god"..as in individual choice). I don't see how the polytheistic origin facts are helping the case of Islam. If Islam is claiming Allah is Yahweh, then it IS very important, to understand the origins, (of both actually).
b. It doesn't matter whether one of the names was the same or not. We know Allah had a different developmental, and actual worship history. The only remaining question is whether the god Sin, is Yahweh, or thought of as the same. Since the Bible is full of stuff telling Isra-El to stop worshiping Sin, they cannot be the same.

(13-09-2012 03:02 PM)Internet Mullah Wrote: I don't disagree with any of that. Yes, we know that Yahweh was a bedouin war god that originated from the deserts of Edom and from the surrounding regions. A longer name for Yahweh is "Yahweh Sabaoth" which is found in the Bible and translated as "Lord of Hosts" or "Lord of Armies" and this would suggest that Yahweh was first and foremost a warrior God.

Actually that is not correct. Edom was far South of the sites where Yahweh originated and was worshiped. Yahweh came from the North, and Northeast, from Sumaria/Babylonia. JAVEH was the Edomite mountain god, (and Egyptian volcano god), and later the Isra-EL-ites conflated this mountain god with the Yahweh traditions.

(13-09-2012 03:02 PM)Internet Mullah Wrote: there is a long and thorough refutation of his moon good arguments in this article. I also mentioned several verses from the Quran which irrefutably disprove the idea that Muslims believe in a moon god. If you want to bring to the table any particular arguments and/or historical sources to support the idea that Allah was a moon god, then I'm all ears. I'll see if you can come up with anything.

Of course Muslims would not say in the Qur'an they believe in a moon god. First of all, it's not useful, as it's circular to argue anything based on it. External references are required. Secondly, it's beside the point. The point is, did Allah develop in human history from the moon god cult, directly ? There is no longer much doubt about that. I really don't care what Morey said. Many other much better scholars, (I hate to even say he was a "scholar". He was an insane preacher-man), other than him, have come to the same conclusion. I will read through the link provided, and see what I think. But it's not a case of refuting Morey or not refuting Morey. There is a large body of scholarship apart from him, and I suspect, where he got his original idea from.

(13-09-2012 03:02 PM)Internet Mullah Wrote: The Quran is a faith text indeed, and yes, it is certainly not a history book as you mentioned, but a religious book. We believe that it does contain many stories and events which occurred in certain nations and to certain people who lived before the time that history can record (or before the time of Muhammad), but, again, the details and historical verses in the Quran are not the most important thing for Muslims. The most important thing, are the spiritual elements of the Quran and the fact that the Quran calls all human beings to bring themselves closer to the one God who is the source of everything. The fundamental theme of the Quran is monotheism - or tawhid - which is derived from the Arabic term for "one." Tawhid entails first of all that there is only one God. And it conveys the rich complexity and power of the Quran’s insistence on the oneness of God.

Don't disagree with that. However it's time humans move beyond the god/gods phase, as religion is not useful, and no longer necessary to explain anything. There is no evidence for any god, (as you have agreed). Science now explains the world. When religious people "name" god(s), what they are really doing, in the end, is "naming" or referencing "that which is the 'best' in me/us". It would be better to recognize this, and be honest about it. The goodness exists within us, ourselves. No need to project it out on an external god.

(13-09-2012 03:02 PM)Internet Mullah Wrote: Well, the first thing you have to remember is that Muhammad was illiterate. So, how do you think that an illiterate person could come up with such a rich, poetic, and inspiring text that transformed the entire Arabia and many other parts of the world in such a short amount of time?

Being illiterate, as was pointed out in the video, does not mean he didn't or couldn't memorize things, or was not aware of other circulating oral traditions. If his companions memorized the Qur'an, he could have memorized it also. Actually, this is an argument AGAINST the Qur'an, as you're implying he or his companions could not have been Hafiz.

(13-09-2012 03:02 PM)Internet Mullah Wrote: all three religions are the Abrahamic religions and thus they have the same origins.

They absolutely do not have the same origins. Yahweh long predated the development, and "naming" of Abraham as the "Father of the Nation" of Isra-EL. We know Abraham was a myth, as was Isaac, and Jacob. We know their local geographical origins, and origin sites. NONE of them reference any Allah. Abraham was not written into the Hebrew texts as Father until 550-575 BCE, and the ONLY reason that happened was because the Yahwists were attempting to centralize their sites as the most important, and make Jerusalem central to national life. THAT process had NOTHING to do with what was going on in Arabia, or anywhere else, other than
ONE local petty kingdom. How could anyone in Arabia possibly know what was going on so far away ? It simply makes no sense. Actually the first historical unifying actual known person in the history of Isra-EL, is Deborah. Christianaity, (Paulianity), and Judaism really are "Deborah-hamic", as she was the first to unify, politically, the tribes. But, of course, having a woman being or holding that sort of importance, is simply inconceivable in those cultures.

(13-09-2012 03:02 PM)Internet Mullah Wrote: How can he have the knowledge of all the science, astronomy, the stars, the earth, the moon, oceanography, and so many other things contained in the Quran? Was he just guessing luckily getting everything correct?

Arabia was a known center of science and astronomy, at the time. It was not that HE got it right. THEY got it right, and he used what was known in the culture.

(13-09-2012 03:02 PM)Internet Mullah Wrote: Another amazing thing about the Quran is it's deep content and literary eloquence that has mystified even the greatest Arab poets of the past and future since it's revelation. The incredible power and beauty of the speech contained in the Quran defies all reasonable explanations in regards to how a single man could produce such a speech out of his own mind.

Obviously he used many sources. Muhammad did not write it himself. It was an "assemblage" of sources, many of which are known. If he used other poetic sources, then it speaks to only how good the sources were. We know for certain he used many external sources.

Insufferable know-it-all.
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche

I"m sure there are a number of reasons. As I see it, it's a reaction within the context of their rules against ANY representation of either Muhammad or Allah. It's not THE one representation, (that they object to), that they feel disrespects their faith, it's that their faith forbids ANY representation, respectful, or not. It's also a lot of testosterone and 2012 power and cultural overlay now, but the original impetus was Islamic Law, against "idols", and images of ANY sort.

Insufferable know-it-all.
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche

This makes perfect sense. We know for a FACT the original conquerors did NOT insist that "Islam" be followed, or the conquered convert. All the conquerors insisted on, was monotheism.

BTW there are NO reference to Jesus either. Only "Christians". The claim that Tacitus, and all the others talk about Jesus is false.

Also the parallels to the creation of the Pentateuch as a precisely political unifying document are uncanny. The unification of the post-Exilic Israel was THE reason Ezra, and the King of Isra-El created the Torah of Moses.

Insufferable know-it-all.
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche

This makes perfect scene. We know for a FACT the original conquerors did NOT insist that "Islam" be followed, or the conquered convert. All the conquerors insisted on, was monotheism.

BTW there are NO reference to Jesus either. Only "Christians". The claim that Tacitus, and all the others talk about Jesus is false.

Also the parallels to the creation of the Pentateuch as a precisely political unifying document are uncanny. The unification of the post-Exilic Israel was THE reason Ezra, and the King of Isra-El created the Torah of Moses.

I noticed their mistake about contemporary references to Jesus too. The interviewer had written a book about Catholicism so may be a biased Christian.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.