As I finished up my last post about Men’s Rights Redditors attempting to dox a so-called “conservative feminist” blogger who had confessed to trashing male applications when working in a university admissions office, I saw that A Voice for Men has run a post by Paul Elam identifying someone they’ve convinced themselves is the blogger, apparently using the information dug up by the Reddit doxers.

Their alleged culprit? “Arianna Pattek, a Georgetown grad student.” Other Men’s Rightsers have taken up the case, and the Conspiracy Subreddit is all aflutter about a post identifying her by name.

They’ve got the wrong person.

AVFM “proof” backing up their claims is that they have found a paper by Pattek that bears some vague resemblances to the blogger’s description of her thesis. But it’s clearly not a match.

Discussing her (then upcoming) thesis defense on her blog, the blogger refers to a number of topics, including men’s rights and paleoconservatism, that aren’t referenced at all in Pattek’s thesis. And roughly half the of her thesis deals with a topic — Holocaust Denial — that the blogger doesn’t mention. The blogger says her thesis is 120 pages; Pattek’s thesis is 95 pages.

But there’s an even bigger reason I know these two women are not one and the same:

Pattek got her bachelors degree from Georgetown in the spring of 2012. She’s not now, and has never been, a grad student.

Her thesis wasn’t a PhD. thesis, but a Senior Thesis that was a requirement for her minor in Justice and Peace, a program for undergraduates.

It even says so on the title page of the thesis itself: “A Thesis Submitted in Partial Fulfillment of the Requirements for the Certificate in Justice and Peace, Georgetown University, Spring 2012.” A news article linked to in the comments on A Voice for Men notes that she was “the winner of the 2012 Peace and Justice Studies Association (PJSA) Undergraduate Thesis Award.”

UNDERgraduate. UNDERgraduate.

They’re not the same woman.

All of this is clear from simply reading the “evidence” that AVFM has assembled.

Even without this smoking gun, even a cursory skimming of the blog and the thesis show that they were written by different people. The blogger, assuming she is even a real person and not the creation of a hoaxer, claims to be a “conservative feminist” and constantly bashes Muslims. Pattek, concerned about “marginalized groups,” seems to be anything but a conservative. The blogger’s writing style is crude and dogmatic, so much so that the blog reeks of hoax. Pattek, by contrast, writes smoothly and intelligently.

It’s almost as if we are talking about two different people.

Oh, wait.

A Voice for Men: not only shitty people, but shitty doxers as well.

Amazingly, someone who says he’s a friend of Pattek has gone over to AVFM to point out in the comments that she is clearly not the “conservative feminist” blogger — and has been dismissed by Wrong-Way Elam and the gang as a liar and “white knight.”

I’m disconcerted by the certainty of other commenters that everything is true considering the amount and plausibility of evidence that currently exists. There’s nothing wrong with prodding the university for answers about Arianna and the website edits, but at the very least wait until more evidence comes in before you run off with your verdict.

It should be noted the credibility of the entire controversy is based on anecdotes taken from an extremely dubious and over-the-top blog. Anecdotes are NOT valid evidence of anything unless they are substantiated by additional solid evidence, and this anecdote has none. Evidence connecting the blog to Arianna suggests she might be writing the blog, not that what is being written is true. Additionally, there are serious discrepancies between the information provided about Adrianna on the cached Georgetown pages and the beliefs stated in the blog. Some commenters suggest this is to cover her identity, but there is no reason to believe this information was distorted or fabricated but the admissions blog post itself is not.

http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1ckvgo/woman_who_works_at_college_admissions_rejects/ Mensrights reddit is not on board with this. One commenter who says they know about the Georgetown admissions process asserts that there is major gaps between their knowledge of it and how the blogger portrayed the process. This includes discrepancies between dates and the fact that admissions isn’t even run by a single person. Another commenter says there’s a committee involved in judging admissions. Putting this much effort into portraying your post as containing faulty information just so you can brag about seriously incriminating and illegal evidence is extremely implausible to me.

To recap: – There’s no evidence the post about trashing admissions is factual, and other evidence indicates it wasn’t – There is insubstantial evidence the blogger was Arianna – It is advisable to wait until there is substantial evidence before you declare it as true

Additionally: – I haven’t seen evidence Arianna was ever in charge of admissions (feel free to correct) – The consequences of the conspiracy would have to be public or fabricated: the university publishes statistics about their admissions, and any number of people would have to cover it up or there’d be a suspicious spike in certain demographics – The total number of people in the U involved in the conspiracy if all of it were true would be implausibly high – Presumption of innocence has apparently gone to hell, and of all people to do it

Elam responds with this feeble bit of hand-waving:

I agree with much of what you post here, which is exactly why an affirmative response to the NCFM letter from GU is in order, vs the removal of information about Pattek from their website.

It is in the light of day where the lingering questions about this can be answered.

No, Paul, that’s not how journalism works. You get your facts straight BEFORE you publish. You don’t publish dubious — and in this case demonstrably false — information and wait for others to prove it wrong in the “light of day.”

This whole incident is shining a lot of daylight onto AVFM, and what it reveals is none too pretty — albeit not suprising in the least.

Thanks, Cloudiah, for bringing the Georgetown response and these comments to our attention.

EDITED AGAIN: The same Men’s Rights forum that thoroughly doxed the red-haired Canadian activst I wrote about earlier this week has also doxed Pattek, albeit less thoroughly; I’m not going to link to it. Some other sites that have wrongly trashed Pettek: ReyekoMRA, a conspiracy-mongering site ironically called What Really Happened, and Stormfront. Yes, THAT Stormfront, the hangout for white supremecists.

What’s amazing to me is that the discussion on Stormfront, despite being racist as fuck, actually shows more evidence of critical thought than the discussions of the AVFM regulars. Posting in the Stormfront thread, David Duke — yes, THAT David Duke — is critical enough to think that “feminist conservative’s” blog is bogus. Others are similarly skeptical. Meanwhile, another commenter there is able to figure out that whether or not the blog is bogus, there’s no way Pattek wrote it.

So it’s official: Paul Elam is dumber, and more blinded by hate, than David Duke.

I’m going to write Pattek a supportive email. (If you can’t find her email account, I can send you the email of hers I’m using.)

Well, now that we’ve established that Paul Elam is made of bees (since he hasn’t replied to our damning evidence), I’d like to add that there has been an outbreak of autism since Elam first got angry about evil misandry.
Misandry, bee stings, autism. Coincidence? I don’t think so.
For the moment, I’m just asking questions. But if we don’t receive irrefutable proof in the next 24 hours that Elam does not cause autism, I think we’ve got our answer.

Also, right after I told them I received the letter, they were like “All right, cool, now come to our room if you want a haircut.” I walked into their room and they had a table all neatly set up with combs, hairbands, and so on.

@Aalayah, that is so cute. I wish I could be their customer and get the classy hair doe.

Paul Elam IS made of bees. This totally explains colony collapse disorder. Paulie is clearly a toxic environment, and no living creature could survive inside him for long. In order to continue existing on an earthly plane, Paulie must be somehow harvesting and ingesting a very large number of bees on a daily basis, leading many bee colonies to collapse.

Aha, now it’s all fitting together. See, at first, I doubted the Elam=bees theory because bees are good. They pollinate plants and help our food supply. They also make delicious honey. Elam is not good, and he does not pollinate plants or make honey. But if he’s consuming the bees, then it all makes sense.

in other news, a man was escorted out by six police officers from a take back the night sexual assault speak-out this week that i almost went to, but didn’t. no clue as to why. don’t feel safe providing details. the news has reported nothing.

princessbonbon: Since rural areas are often under served, I favor a system where a newbie doctor gets X knocked of his or her’s student loans for each year of practice (in addition to a living stipend.)

There is such a program. Not many doctors take advantage of it (it’s the Maguffin for the show, “Northern Exposure”)

Paul Elam IS made of bees. This totally explains colony collapse disorder. Paulie is clearly a toxic environment, and no living creature could survive inside him for long. In order to continue existing on an earthly plane, Paulie must be somehow harvesting and ingesting a very large number of bees on a daily basis, leading many bee colonies to collapse.

How could I not see this earlier?

It’s so obvious now. I feel like a fool XD

@bagelsan

Paul Elam being made of bees makes perfect sense. A bee once stung me. If that’s not woman-hating I don’t know what is.

I got stung by a wasp once. (luckily?) I stepped on it, so it didn’t get the chance to sting me multiple times, but it only stung me cuz I stepped on it…ect. Also, last time I got stung by a bee it was in my ear 🙁

@seventhguest

I’ve seen active anxiety in doctors having to do anything with long term pain patients, even for muscle relaxers.

🙁 I mean, you’ve got to get medical help somewhere for long term pain…*sigh* ::world getting me down today::

@augochlorella

Don’t worry, friends. I’m a bee. And that’s real.

I can’t believe you’ve been a bee this whole time. And here I thought you were a cat. XD

Thebionicmommy

Aha, now it’s all fitting together. See, at first, I doubted the Elam=bees theory because bees are good. They pollinate plants and help our food supply. They also make delicious honey. Elam is not good, and he does not pollinate plants or make honey. But if he’s consuming the bees, then it all makes sense.

I’m currently applying to a scholarship* that helps pay for nursing school in return for 2+ years working with an underserved (often rural) population. There are also ones you can apply to after you’re done with school, with a similar setup to help you pay back your loans. I think it’s a great idea, and I’m definitely gonna try to take advantage of it.

Aaliyah, I believe you have now established that you have the cutest little sisters.

bagelsan, I am crossing fingers and toes for you.

In totally unrelated news, I have now confirmed that I still know how to change a flat tire, but that doing so is not good for my back. 0_o I tried lying in the street and crying, but amazingly NO MEN CAME OVER TO CHANGE MY TIRE FOR ME!

And still no trolls in this thread. It’s amazing. Have we ever gone more than 270 comments without a troll?

Without wanting to detract from the awful effect that avfm’s doxxing and the threats and abuse mete out to the victims, I think it’s important to get some perspective.

The MRM doesn’t dox out of strength, it does it because the main actors in the whole, sorry “movement” realise how ineffectual they are. JtO has acknowledged that the MRM is “universally despised” and, I think, stated that there are fewer than 30k MRAs in the entire world. The MRM doxxes because it needs to rely on youtube and Reddit trolls to harass women. Try as they might, MRAs have utterly failed to Change anything, beyond online harassment of some women. MRAs have been unable to exploit thr latent misogyny of a lot of mainstream media, politics and society. I would guess that most AVfM traffic is due to negative coverage in Jezebel and elsewhere. Paul Elam complained at the lack of active “activists” recently, and 2012 was a year if embarrassing failures for the MRM.

The splits and feuds continue within the MRM.

The fear of an unhinged MRA finding and harming a doxxed woman is understandable – but it’s a fear that MRAs want feminists to feel, and, like a lot of fears, it’s highly unlikely to be realised. Again, that’s not said without empathy for the women harassed and doxxed by MRA sites.

Some guy commenting on markymark’s blog who totally not fooled “…I knew exactly what happened: “I immediately suspected it of being a fraud most likely by some female cunt who had something against Pattek or who just chose her name at random and wrote these things for some psychotic or jealous reason, very common among females.”

Perfect, in light of the fact that the d00dz at AVFM are on record plotting to do just exactly that, just about the time the blog went up.
So, MRA puts up fake feminist blog as planned on AVFM and a year later MRAs have a meltdown over it in order to dox a completely unrelated woman? Then proceed to blame some unknown woman for what the MRAs did.
Criminy!

In London instead of picketing or demonstrating when feminists meet, the MRAs threaten the workers at the venue until they cancel the feminist meet up, cuz that’s just the way they roll. Just like last year the feminists will have to find another venue because the MRAs terrorized the owners and the workers into cancelling. GWW is crowing.

@ carnation: Well, there are more than 30 k on Reddit alone. As for them being ‘universally despised’, I’m not so sure. Disliked or made fun of by many people? Yes. But so are feminists. I would say that about 75% of the young men I know hate (and I mean viciously hate) feminism and feminists. I do think MRA -ish views are gaining ground. And it’s not just general sexism, the idea of men as victims, especially as victims of women, is becoming more and more common. Look at any comment section online about gender issues or women- they are always there. All I can go on are writings online and what the guys I know say, but isn’t that all most of us can go on? The men I know are fed up (in their words) with having to treat women like they’re special. People on Manboobz often say that they don’t know anyone who holds such misogynist views in real life, and I haven’t met many either, but to be honest I have never met men who hold the views of the Manboobz regulars either. They seem too good to be true (ha!). I mean, I hope you’re right and I’m wrong – I really do. These are just my observations. Keep in mind I am young and have only begun to think about these things recently.

Sorry, I feel like I’m always on here going on about how terrible things are and being a prophet of doom, but I just don’t see it the same way that some people on here seem to, that they are these laughably fringe idiots. I think what’s really holding more men back from identifying with the MR movement are the really extreme misogynist blogs (I mean, they’re all misogynist to some degree, but I’m thinking of places like the Spearhead and the Christian manosphere, whose views come packaged with all sorts of other conservative ideas which most young men would find unappealing). I know most people are neither feminists or MRAs, but if the two are pitted against each other, many people will consider them both equally bad. If the MRM can convince people that they are fighting feminism, they may gain a lot of support. If people start to think they are against women in general though, they will dislike them a lot more.

I’m not trying to prove anything or say that I’m right, just relating my personal experiences.

Hey, I really liked this article about the current feminist backlash. I find there are a lot of articles about backlash around 2008, then a lot of backlash articles criticizing the concept of backlash written now. I think this one is newer and therefore has a bit more perspective on how economic factors contribute to backlash. Anyway, want to share good articles for a while? It’s always good to have some fresh perspectives.http://thedisorderofthings.com/2011/02/03/the-anti-feminist-backlash-in-an-age-of-austerity/

So, I meet a lot of very young people (as in half my age or less) through work, and I have to say, I’m not seeing the pattern you are. Maybe it’s a differing social groups thing? The young people I meet are mostly into metal/indie/punk music, that’s how I know them. In general I’ve found them to be less sexist, racist, homophobic and so on than people of my generation. Some serious assholes (of both sexes), sure, but in general? They’re mostly pretty decent kids, the most obnoxious behavior I see is usually more teenage drama than anything serious. I’ve also encountered a higher percentage of guys who’re openly pro-feminist in the 25 and younger demographic than in the 30 and over demographic. So either it’s a which social group are we talking about thing or maybe the assholes just talk louder than anyone else and dominate the conversation because they’re assholes and that’s what assholes do?

So let me get this straight again Manboob. You are writing an essay about the men’s community policing itself? No? That questions against the veracity of the claims made by Elam are being policed by other male writers within the community, no? And you are merely echoing the questions of male writers about that veracity?

Can you ever imagine women doing that? Actually policing themselves? Insisting on a movement based on truth and willing to attack another women if they doubted her veracity in her claims.

Of course, rest assured that if the woman that is claimed is not the writer, then the real writer will be found.

This is a very big issue to men, this deep seated belief that there is a real war for dominance going on between men and women. Men tend to take care of women when they are dominate and men have seen that women tend to exclude men, abuse men, discriminate against men if they have dominance (example “modern marriage”).

The reality is that whether this is true or not, whether or not the stated woman wrote the blog, the global idea is now seated in the minds of men, that women are the enemy. I stated this in that “Mark Minter Strikes Back” essay you liked to pan. That the Chinese, Arabs, Iranians, Al Qaeda are less of a threat to my daily existence, my employment, my financial health, and my mental sanity than American women. And I view you directly as my foremost enemy and shall treat you as such.

There is still a reasonable assumption that the blog is legit, and it was written by a woman.

So the real damage is done, that men now more than assume that women in HR are deep-sixing the applications of men, we have heard anecdotal evidence in the past. And now we have a bragging woman boasting that she did it.

Only 65% of men are at work. And while it may not be so overt as trashing applications, placing apps of lesser qualified women ahead of more qualified men, there is a belief that the nature of criteria for jobs is now being written in ways that favor the greater majority of women at the expense of men all under the guise of “corporate culture”.

So I find it interesting that rather than this “august” body of women readers of your blog decrying the possibility that this occurs, rather than affirming “I would never do such a thing such as throw a man’s application in the garbage. And if I ever found another women that did such a thing then I would see her severely reprimanded and punished. Men should believe that vast majority of women would never support such actions”…l.

No, they are not. So once again it is “Beta whiner MRAs not real men”.

Addendum – the number of whiny sexist young men in certain internet spaces is kind of astounding, but I figure that’s because the young men inclined to whine about sexism tend to actively look for conversations into which they can interject their bullshit. I’m not sure that reflects anything about the attitudes of young men as a group – could easily just be a small group of assholes being obnoxious because the internet allows them to be.

OT: Do people think it would be OK for me to repost something from the fora (the public part, obvy) on my blog? It’s publicly accessible already but I feel odd about it because a lot of the people who participated are no longer around to ask.

Minty is an example of what I mean. I don’t know any young men who talk like he does. A lot of prominent MRAs seem to be a lot like him, middle aged and pissed off at women as a group because of relationships that didn’t work out.

Sup, Mark!! I think you may be the only one at war, sweetie. Also, I think he may have felt it was Elam who should have policed himself. You know, take personal responsibility- isn’t that supposed to be men’s wheelhouse or something? But, you know, enjoy pretending you are a soldier in a big important war instead of a mean little man who likes it when people terrorize individual women!!

So let me get this straight again Manboob. You are writing an essay about the men’s community policing itself? No? That questions against the veracity of the claims made by Elam are being policed by other male writers within the community, no? And you are merely echoing the questions of male writers about that veracity?

The sense of your grammar
I find it most confusing
And the way you words write often
Roundabout the point made
But deciphering your – finding – I do, no?, that your question is if echoes are made
To which question I answer with: “Yes”

Can you ever imagine women doing that? Actually policing themselves? Insisting on a movement based on truth and willing to attack another women if they doubted her veracity in her claims.

Yes, I find, that question about the intention and the truth are commonly made by everyone, everywhere, reading things they disagree with! Forsooth, look just at GirlWritesWhat as an example of a women who is ostensibly an MRA and who questions the veracity of claims made by feminists.
Or feminists wondering if she is right in her views. Where would you find any of OH RIGHT THIS BLOG.

Of course, rest assured that if the woman that is claimed is not the writer, then the real writer will be found.

Why?

This is a very big issue to men, this deep seated belief that there is a real war for dominance going on between men and women. Men tend to take care of women when they are dominate and men have seen that women tend to exclude men, abuse men, discriminate against men if they have dominance (example “modern marriage”).

You remind me of an article I read a while ago, which stated, quite clearly the following:
“I have personally seen that in most so called equal relationships, the woman is really in charge”.
That caused me to sit and stare for literally ten minutes as my brain tried to understand what it was reading. In most equal relationships, the woman is in charge? What?
In most cases of women dominating men, they exclude and abuse? While in most cases of men dominating, they’re nice and friendly and do not rape or murder or exclude or use as chattel or kick out of pregnant or turn into slaves?
What?
Are you serious? Come on, man. You’re lying and what’s worse, you know it.

The reality is that whether this is true or not, whether or not the stated woman wrote the blog, the global idea is now seated in the minds of men, that women are the enemy. I stated this in that “Mark Minter Strikes Back” essay you liked to pan. That the Chinese, Arabs, Iranians, Al Qaeda are less of a threat to my daily existence, my employment, my financial health, and my mental sanity than American women. And I view you directly as my foremost enemy and shall treat you as such.

Do you view women as your foremost enemy, or David? Dude, not the same. And your views are your views, not an objective truth about the nature of the universe. We’ve been over this. Your truth is nothing of the kind.

There is still a reasonable assumption that the blog is legit, and it was written by a woman.

So what? Her views are her views, and nothing of a kind of truth.

So the real damage is done, that men now more than assume that women in HR are deep-sixing the applications of men, we have heard anecdotal evidence in the past. And now we have a bragging woman boasting that she did it.

So what? Idiots exist at all levels of beaucracy. That is pretty much a standard lie. Don’t assume malice of gender when malice of people can suffice just fine.

Only 65% of men are at work. And while it may not be so overt as trashing applications, placing apps of lesser qualified women ahead of more qualified men, there is a belief that the nature of criteria for jobs is now being written in ways that favor the greater majority of women at the expense of men all under the guise of “corporate culture”.

There is no such belief, except in your head. There is no such statements being made, except by you.
This does not grant them veracity, and I question the truthfulness of your claims.

So I find it interesting that rather than this “august” body of women readers of your blog decrying the possibility that this occurs, rather than affirming “I would never do such a thing such as throw a man’s application in the garbage. And if I ever found another women that did such a thing then I would see her severely reprimanded and punished. Men should believe that vast majority of women would never support such actions”…l.

How does that make any sense, Sir? Everyone here is saying just that: “This doesn’t happen, and if it did, it’d be wrong, but as it stands, people who have worked in academia know this is not how admissions work. Like at all. So not only is this not a factual fact worthy of consideration, it’s a stupid lie!”

No, they are not. So once again it is “Beta whiner MRAs not real men”.

But you just said the blog was written by a woman maybe and doing this thing so it’s not a case of a beta man whining it’s a case of a woman denying applications but if beta MRA whines the… ARGH. I’ve lost track. I don’t get it. My brain is frazzled at the sheer obtuseness.

Enjoy the gender war baby. I love it and hope you all do also.

Why?
Is it because you view women as the enemy, you hate them, you want to see future generations of them suffer?
Youd like to go back to a time where they couldn’t decide who to spend time with? Mr. Mittens, the more you post here, at this site, the larger the backlog of comments indicting you as a… sorry to say, as a person holding terrible human views grows and grows.
It’s already been slavery, hate and misery. Now it’s an all out war? What’ll it be next time? You moving to the Moon to escape the feminine wiles of those around you?

That’s good to hear. I think it may partly my location (don’t want to give away my location, but it’s a conservative part of the UK, albeit a university town). To be honest, it’s also the people I choose to be around. For some reason, the people I gravitate towards tend to be quite conservative, politically and socially. I am probably more conservative than most people on here, so the circles I am in are different. Most of the guys I am friends with are politically conservative (one of them recently revealed he’s thinking about joining the British National Party – not talking to him anymore), and many of them are into sports (if that has something to do with it) and many of them are or were in the military. I am also attracted to very conventionally ‘masculine’ (acting and looking) men -that might affect my perception. So it’s more self-induced than I would like to think.

The first time I tried to explain the MRM to a group of male friends I got confused looks, which quickly turned to disgust, and then the comment that “you might as well take a sharpie and write a big L on your forehead”.

Yeah, I’m thinking both social group and location. I live in one of the most hippie/leftist places on earth, and associate mostly with people at the alternative end of the social spectrum. Still, my nephew (who’s just about to go to uni) is pretty mainstream and he’s so much less sexist than the older generation of his family (who were raised by a feminist mom and not that sexist to begin with) that it’s kind of funny.

I don’t think its all that bad, at least not in the circles I move in. But the circles I move in are the kind of people who just finished a time travel dungeon crawl in D&D 3.5 while holding political discourse rallies in their spare time, so, uh, that’s probably not the general population?

A quick survey of Facebook and the latest posts there shows nothing but, in fact, support for feminist ideals.

It’s probably a case of heuristic availability – you recall a lot of events, so it seems to be happening a lot and you assume the model fits the rest of the world… Where it’s more a case of having an easy time remembering specific instances of people being angry at women (and reading this blog doesn’t exactly help that, synapse), and so it seems worse.

I think that part of the noisiness of the MRM is caused by their awareness that being openly sexist is less socially acceptable than it used to be. It’s an extinction burst, basically – they know that their ideas are dying out in the general population and generally viewed with contempt, and they’re fighting that as hard as they can.

I find there is definitely an undertone of misogyny with the young men I hang out with. More importantly, women are definitely more censored by their peers, and they get the ‘slut’ label way more easily. I do live in a pretty backwards area of Canada, but I have often discussed with friends my age how worse it is for women now than when we we were younger. It’s not that all men are like that- they aren’t- it’s the middle ground has swung a little more to the woman hating side of things than it was a decade or so ago. And that needs fixing.

Can you ever imagine women doing that? Actually policing themselves? Insisting on a movement based on truth and willing to attack another women if they doubted her veracity in her claims.

I can imagine that pretty easily. I’ve heard women who are feminists get called out by other women for things like transphobia or gender essentialism. I’ve seen women correct other women for getting the facts wrong. Rachel Maddow regularly corrects herself when she learns she’s wrong.

We Hunted the Mammoth tracks and mocks the white male rage underlying the rise of Trump and Trumpism. This blog is NOT a safe space; given the subject matter -- misogyny and hate -- there's really no way it could be.