Last year Teknikens Värld tested the 4WD system in Honda CR-V. We then discovered that Honda’s 4WD system didn’t perform well at all. The system overheated when the surface was slippery. The CR-V wasn’t able to drive uphill when the traction was poor. The front wheels were just spinning and the rear wheels were not moving at all.
Honda explained that is was a built-in functionality to spare the mechanical parts of the system. But Honda did listen to our criticism and they shortly after offered all their customers in Sweden a software update to eliminate the problem.
We then tested the CR-V again with the updated software and the problem with the 4WD system was gone. CR-V was now able to run up the hill on the slippery surface.

We have now performed the same test again, now with Honda CR-V model year 2014. As you can see in the movie above the problem is back. The CR-V is not able to climb uphill when the front wheels have no friction. The rear wheels are once again not moving. After 15-20 seconds the CR-V instead slides off the low friction rolls.

Our test method with low friction rolls was approved by Honda last year. The method, which is very realistic, has also been adopted by some automakers, such as Subaru.

Reply from Honda Sweden

The Honda AWD system uses a compact, lightweight and fuel-efficient rear differential. The design requires a certain torque limitation for the device to be able to work effectively in real conditions, but at the same time, it must not exceed the total capacity of the AWD drive.
In real conditions, regardless of the surface, there is a certain amount of friction always available for both front and rear wheels. The AWD system benefits therefore torque between front and rear wheels in order to achieve optimal driving force.
In the roll test non-existent grip is simulated in the front and maximum grip at the rear.
If all the available torque required to move the vehicle forward would be transferred to the rear differential then the limit for the torque of the unit would be exceeded.
If the vehicle continues to run in this state (the front wheels spinning and the rear wheels standing still) the system senses the high speed variation and that the differential clutch slips and reduces the available torque to the rear wheels to prevent overheating. That is why the vehicle moves backward in the video.

In real conditions a scenario like the roll test with such a high difference in grip between the front and the rear wheels is highly unlikely.

In other words Honda does not see that the roll test fairly highlights CR-V’s AWD performance. Teknikens Värld has done a winter test where CR-V was tested on icy roads, as well as steep paths such as a ski slope.
Honda believes that these tests in real environments should be enough to show that the CR-V is a great winter car and would like to stress that there are no known customer complaints on the CR-V’s traction from the Swedish market or in other markets with similar conditions.

On Teknikens Värld’s question whether the update is made, we can with measuring instruments upon request show that for both customers and media.
Since it is important for Honda that customers feel safe and have confidence in ourselves we did an update of the software of all CR-Vs for the Swedish market.
CR-V customers were able to get the software, free of charge, updated at our dealers from April 15 and in production from July 8 in 2013.
Honda CR-V is a global car and has sold over 5 million copies. It is the world’s best-selling SUV* and the sales in Europe is growing steadily, 6 percent in comparison with last year. The CR-V therefore has many satisfied customers around the world.

Total number of customers is not a valid argument to refute a problem or an inaccuracy. That was so lame; the kind of lame ”evidence” that FOX News uses. We were considering a new CRV to replace our 6 year old CRV. But not anymore we aren’t.

Lars Andersson

Note that in spite of the steel roller flaws in the printed Teknikens World test, after considering all aspects, the CR-V got directly into the final with 4 other cars (out of the 20 tested). Apparently, it finally got the 3:d place after the winning Mazda CX-5 and Volvo XC60.

marq101

So Honda logic is: if the torque is send to the back wheels the torque to the back wheels is reduced. The Honda rear diff therefore is the automotive equivalent of a black hole.

james.

‘If all the available torque required to move the vehicle forward would be transferred to the rear differential then the limit for the torque of the unit would be exceeded.’

The test started with very minimal acceleration. If the rear diff can’t handle that small amount of power:
a) it’s crap
b) electronically limit the torque

cr0ft

By the very definition – if you have an AWD car that can’t drive with all wheels when needed, you have a fraud. You can bet your life that Honda is charging the customers for the non-existent AWD.

Adrian

The answer is more simple than you think – Honda is trying to save YOUR MONEY in service costs! By protecting that rear diff from being destroyed with some extreme torque running to it suddenly and the weight of the car being pushed by the weaker (yes, maybe even cheap) rear powertrain. Have you heard of a broken powertrain in a Honda ever? I haven´t. In real conditions when your front wheels are spinning like this your rear wheels couldn´t save you either. So the system is tuned and set up for real life conditions. If other makers can afford using a full force rear diff that can handle the full torque of the powertrain it is to their benefit. But I am more willing to believe that they just let the tiny little diff and other parts of the rear powertrain suffer without thinking of the effects. Why would they? It won´t break apart immediately, and when it does inappropriate use, void warranty will make sure the owner pays the bill.

If you think about it, it does make sense to:
1. save costs on a diff that is used only in specific conditions,
2. protect a cheaper part by electronic means,
3. (this is the most important) make your 4WD system smart enough to understand when it is being tested and when cheated … in other words, fine tune system that works with the car, surface and power.

While in this test there is ice in the front and tarmac at the back …

Panayiotis

With the initial firmware I got stuck in the sand as the rear wheels failed to engage. The front wheels were digging themselfs in the sand, whereas the rear wheels did not spin at all even if they had a good grip. This is definetely not a snow at the front wheels and tarmac at the back wheels just loose sand at the front wheels and hard sand at the rear wheels.

The updated firmware solves this problem and passes also the AWD test.

If they remove the firmware on purpose then there is an AWD failure and therefore the system does not pass the AWD test which will lead to many lawsuits against honda.

Panayiotis

Hello,
I am from Cyprus and I have a honda CRV 2013 model. This AWD
problem was fixed with the AWD firmware update. Yes the problem existed
with some initial models which needed some hardware upgrade, but most
just needed the firmware upgrade depending on the production VIN. I had
managed to get stuck in sand also, having the rear wheels not spinning
and the front wheels getting burried in sand. After having my CRV
flashed with the AWD firmware update (I also had my Engine/Gearbox
flashed with latest firmware) I went back to the beach where I got
stuck. The CRV AWD worked flawlessly. I passed 4 times from the same
spot and the CRV passed the tests.

This is also mentioned in this article that the CRV has passed the test after the AWD firmware update.

Therefore I dont understand their argument regarding the 2014 CRV.
This
video must be a 2013 CRV with the old fimrware or a 2014 CRV with the
old firmware. If one updated the new CRV 2014 with the old firmware this
problem will reappear. Thus maybe this is something that one has to
investigate further since my experience tells me otherwise.

Does one have 2 traction rollers in order to replicate this test?

Seeh Emm

This car was a 2014 model. And I guess that Honda would have pointed it out when they contacted them for comments here. So by all logic, if seems like this ”feature by firmware update” was maybe ”removed” again?

Guest

I dont understand this. Why would they remove a good firwmare update? The first firmware has led to AWD problems and the updated firmware fixed the AWD low rear wheel torque problems. Going back to the first firmware is irrational.

http://teknikensvarld.se/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/honda-cr-v-registreringsbevis-220×144.jpg
From the registration certificate the Car is not a 2015 nor a 2014 production model. It is a 2013 pre firmware model. Honda has not removed the firmware update. The magazine got a prefirmware release CRV which is obviously not updated with the revised AWD firmware. Why have they not performed same test on 2014 or 2015 production AWD CRVs just to be on the safe side? This is the issue here because they may be making false accusations as Honda CRV AWD did pass this test when the new AWD firmware was updated.
I had the same issue when I was stuck in sand but after the firmware update it performs very well in sand.

Panayiotis

Why would they remove the excellent firmware update? This has solved the glinch with CRVs AWD which I also experienced.

Seeh Emm

They remove it if they see that it causes other problems – like more tear on the mechanics. It might seem like the system wasn’t built to handle much ”stress” on the back axle.

Guest

:) I dont think that the AWD is 2 wheel drive. This is the AWD firmware update TSB issue:

Honda released the TSB #
SN-04-001-00 dated 29-04-13 for the following CR-V chassis models. For
new CR-V owners you should not worry too much as dealer would have
uploaded this software to the car at PDI. Its more for knowledge base for future reference.

AWD (All Wheel Drive) system might
not work as expected. For example, if the driver tries to pull away from
an icy road situation, the AWD
warning light comes on prematurely. The driver may also notice that
there is no rear wheel rotation while the front wheels spin.

The Cause

Under certain conditions, torque to the rear axle was not optimised due to AWD ECM software setting.

The Repair Method

The AWD ECU Software has been optimised to allow more torque transfer to the rear axle under certain conditions.

Application to Production Line= Please check if you car is after this cut off

SHSRE5***DU013968 Europe – KE/KG

SHSRE5***DU100281 South Africa – KN

SHSRE5***DU210763 Russia – KR

SHSRE6***DU019938 Europe – KE/KG

SHSRE6***DU100339 South Africa – KN

SHSRE7***DU100581 South Africa – KN

Panayiotis

Honda released the TSB #
SN-04-001-00 dated 29-04-13 for the following CR-V chassis models. For
new CR-V owners you should not worry too much as dealer would have
uploaded this software to the car at PDI. Its more for knowledge base for future reference.

Model Code Year
CRV RE5,RE7 2013

CRV i-Dtec RE6 2013

The Symptoms

AWD (All Wheel Drive) system might
not work as expected. For example, if the driver tries to pull away from
an icy road situation, the AWD
warning light comes on prematurely. The driver may also notice that
there is no rear wheel rotation while the front wheels spin.

The Cause

Under certain conditions, torque to the rear axle was not optimised due to AWD ECM software setting.

The Repair Method

The AWD ECU Software has been optimised to allow more torque transfer to the rear axle under certain conditions.

Application to Production Line= Please check if you car is after this cut off

SHSRE5***DU013968 Europe – KE/KG

SHSRE5***DU100281 South Africa – KN

SHSRE5***DU210763 Russia – KR

SHSRE6***DU019938 Europe – KE/KG

SHSRE6***DU100339 South Africa – KN

SHSRE7***DU100581 South Africa – KN

Panayiotis

If it caused other problems they have to make a recall on all CRVs and hardware upgrade. But I doubt that this is the issue. I think the problem is the competitors who try to give a bad name to HONDA CRV.

Seeh Emm

So this publication and it’s journalist is in ”someones pocked” trying to make Honda look bad? And in the moose-tests they have done, they try to make Chrysler, Toyota, Kia etc. make bad because they are paid to do so by other car manufacturers?

And also other articles/tests we have seen that noted that the Honda 4WD-system aint that good, they are also favouring some other manufacturer?

It will be a HUGE scandal if there was auto-press in the nordics that did so….

Panayiotis

Sorry I am not a Honda dealer nor I am affiliated with Honda. So I cannot comment on behalf of either magazine nor Honda. I am a Honda happy customer since my AWD problem was fixed. Please also check the following.

Maybe you are right. The new firmware probably allowes 100% torque to go the the rear wheels, since the front wheels had no grip. That might cause problems with the Hondas AWD hardware. I dont know. My case was similar though instead of rollers the front wheels were freely spinning in the sand but the rear wheels never engaged. Now I have no problem.

This software glinch is 100% needed. IF the AWD hardware cannot take the load of 100% of torque to the rear wheels the the hardware have to be changed. This is my positiion.

Panayiotis

Also the main points of the firmware update are the following:

1. Problem: Under certain conditions, torque to the rear axle was not optimised due to AWD ECM software setting.

2. The Repair Method: The AWD ECU Software has been optimised to allow more torque transfer to the rear axle under certain conditions.

If for any reasons Honda has decided to drop this firmware update due to hardware problems they face then they should change all CRV hardware by recalling all purchases made.

Panayiotis

I never read from Honda CRV TSBs that there is a downgrade of the AWD firmware, just the AWD upgraded firmware which I have already pasted here.

Panayiotis

The chassis of the CRV tested is SHSRE6790DU010852 so it is a 2013 without the AWD update.

:)
So here you are. The magazine tested an old model again. So there you
have it. I was correct with my assumption that this is a CRV with the
non updated firmware ( a 2013 production).

Olivier Verloove

From the chassis number of the car (DU010852) it looks like it’s an early 2013 model produced before the cut-over number identified in Honda’s TSB SHSRE6***DU019938.
So it looks like they’ve tested a 2013 MY that probably never got the firmware update.

Panayiotis

Excellent info. Oh I just so it too. The chassis of the CRV tested is SHSRE6790DU010852 so it is a 2013 without the AWD update.

:) So here you are. The magazine tested an old model again. So there you have it. I was correct.

Seeh Emm

Don’t you think Honda would have used that as a reply when they was contacted with this issue? My guess would also be that they had the possibility to check this, and could have made note that this car hadn’t been serviced. And shouldn’t the car have got the update during a service?

Panayiotis

Mine got the update last month after I had the problem. If that is a honda dealers car then probably it did not get the update.

Seeh Emm

But still, don’t you think that Honda wouldn’t know this when they contacted them regarding the issue for a statement?

Panayiotis

I am leaning towards the main issue that the Honda person giving the answer is not technical qualified or not the correct person to give the appropriate asnwer or to do the appropriate checks regarding the firmware update. My CRV did the main service at 20,000 and did not get the update. I had to ask for it.

All the above are speculations but why dont they get a proper 2014 produced CRV to do the tests??????????????? This is the issue here. Otherwise this conversation will never have an ending with arguments for and against the firmware update.

:)

Guest

teknikens, this does not seem to be a fair test representing most real life situations. Can you test a CRV in real life situation, when the vehicle is driving forward and suddenly encounters the rollers under its front wheels? Thanks

Poodle Tooth

Ice patch shorter than the vehicle’s wheelbase, on a hill. It happens. It’s perfectly fair, because icy hills are the only common driving condition under which AWD is a necessity. If you don’t routinely face this condition, and you only drive on paved and/or maintained roads, you don’t have any actual need for AWD. This isn’t just a fair test, it’s the only test that matters.

Tan Toun

Excatly, i live in Montreal, we have snow and ice for the better part of the year. I am looking for an AWD that can perform under harsh conditions. I was considering the CRV as my next car, now i am not so sure anymore. Not unless Honda addresses this issue.

The revised AWD firmware should have made the rear wheels to spin. Also there was a AWD oil change, which has different better heating resistance characteristics in order to help with the system overheating.

However having said this it is missing a AWD lock mode. I am waiting from Hondas technical team reply, as a Honda CRV AWD 4th gen owner, if the AWD manual lock mode will become available as a firmware update for low gear situations. If that happens the CRV will become one of the top selling with better off road capabilities, be able to get out from stall situations in sand or mud, and low gear adverse situations. But until then it is loosing from the competition in AWD performance due to the initial AWD firmware which caused the rear wheel to fail to spin in certain adverse situations, and due to the absence of AWD lock mode.

I think it is a fair for the magazine to retest the CRV on a 2014 production CRV, and not a 2013 production CRV just to check if the AWD is really a soft AWD system, even with the updated firmware made available for all 2014 models. The one tested is a 2013 (pre firmware revised CRV model) even if it was tested on 2014 and I cannot tell if the new AWD firmware was installed as an firmware update.

Try test driving Subaru Forester, Hyundai Santa Fe and Mazda CX5. Make sure they come with a AWD lock mode. Honda will not make a AWD lock mode on their CRVs. I got a reply from them and I am disapointed. So dont get a CRV not a good choice I would say due to its lack of lock mode and less torque AWD system. Subaru has the best AWD system but Santa Fe is better looking and drives well off road too.

Poodle Tooth

Wouldn’t limiting the throttle to keep the torque output under the limit the rear diff can take work?

Panayiotis

Does not make any difference. I have tried it when I was stuck in sand, where the front wheels had no grip and the rear wheels took all the load. The rear wheels failed to spin. After this event Honda service applied the AWD firmware update, where there is more torque send to the rear wheels. However I have seen CRV on snow and on uphill where the front wheels loose grip and rear wheel instead of kicking in to fail (also same problem on 2015 model). I am not sure if it is the AWD inability to send the required torque to the rear wheels at this harsh situation or a firmware problem. I assume that if there was a rear wheel lock mode, when the VSA switch is selected to off, then this test would have passed. This can be easily be implemented by HONDA TEAM, if they wish up to 50km/hr, when the VSA switch is selected to off by the driver, to lock the multiplate clutch.

Panayiotis

Any news regarding the ability of CR-V AWD to lock torque distribution to a 50:50 (or 55/45) ratio (front:rear) by the VSA OFF switch? Does anyone know if there an upcoming AWD software/firmware upgrade in order to allow the driver to manually lock the AWD torque distribution when the VSA switch is selected to OFF, by electronically locking the multiplate clutch?

I sincerely hope that HONDA CR-V addresses the AWD shortcomings by manually allowing the CR-V owner to manually lock the rear wheel torque distribution in harsh situations. I hope and wish that the HONDA CR-V DEVELOPMENT TEAM can read this post.

Panayiotis

In the USA Honda Pilot AWD is delivered with a lock mode button which delivers maximum torque to the rear wheels to compensate for extreme low-traction conditions. Is this difficult to materialize on the CRV AWD????? If only a firmware update is needed to lock the multiplate clutch, when VSA switch is selected to off, in order to lock the rear wheels AWD torque distribution to a constant torque, at low speed say up to 50km/hr, then this should be implemented immediately. It is not fair for the CRV AWD owners to feel that they have been deceived since the AWD does not perform in certain adverse situations like driving up a hill on snow. When inclined and on snow, and when the front wheels will loose grip, the rear wheels should kick in but on CRV the rear wheels will fail to spin making the AWD system useless in this situation.

Can Teknikens Varld ask Honda to add a manual lock of torque distribution (front 50% rear 50%) when the VSA (vehicle stability assist) button is selected to Off????
The active AWD system controls the percentage of torque delivered to the rear wheels by varying the electric amperage to the electro-magnetic solenoid in the electric control coupling (multiplate clutch). So the lock mode is possible by just a firmware update. The VSA can be programmed to be turned on when the vehicle goes beyond 50km or when moves to 3rd gear so that the manual AWD lock will be disabled automatically when not needed. Therefore the new firwmare will direct the electro-magnetic solenoid to work at a fixed amperage in order to produced the required constant front rear torque distribution. This will also work as a fix on the HONDA CRV AWD system, i.e. when the front wheels have zero torque the rear wheels fail to engage. By having a lock mode when the VSA button is selected to off this test will be a pass and Honda will save face, since the AWD wil work in harsh environments and help getting out of stuck situations.
This is also how the Toyota RAV4 works. There is a lock mode button on its AWD system selected manually by the driver when the AWD fails and gets disabled when speeding above 35km/hr.
Thanks for your attention.

After erasing all my comments, and after reading a bit more how the CRV differential works I came with the following conclusion
1. This CRV Vin number SHSRE6790DU0110852 is a 2013 model which has only one problem. It needs a AWD firmware update. The proof is the CRVs firmware update service bulletin TSB # SN-04-001-00 dated 29-04-13 for which says that the CRV whos Vehicle identification number is up to SHSRE6***DU019938 need a AWD firmware update. It would be advisable that the magazine tested a proper 2014 model which had all problems sorted.

2. It would be a good idea that Economy mode was turned off since it reduces the engine revs (torque).

3. The VSA in some circumstances it is better to be turned off (stall situations) which I think would much this cases since the front wheels are freely spinning and it is starting from zero. Though the VSA off is for other circumstances not a good idea since it is also acting like a rear wheel automatic limited slip differential.

4. The CRV rear AWD differential has a limiter, also called pressure relief valve (with a spring), which opens when the AWD system pressure is above a certain point. This was made in order for Honda to use a compact and lightweight rear differential for the CRV. I dont know what happens if a stiffer spring or shims are used under the pressure relief valve spring, but I guess it is not a good idead for the long term. This being said the CRV AWD system has a torque limiter.

Summary
Advantages
1. CRV has a VSA off button for stall situations only
2. CRV has an automatic limited slip differential through Vehicle Stability Assist system which applied brake forces to individual wheels.
Disadvantages
1. CRV AWD rear differentials have a rear wheel torque limiter which opens when the pressure in the AWD system is above a certain point, thus limiting the rear wheel torque performance
2. CRV has no manual AWD lock mode which is provided by most of its AWD competitors for better off road AWD capabilities or for stall situations.

Honda will say that their AWD system is compact and light weight, and fuel efficient, and was never advertised for off road. This is same as having a 2WD SUV (excellent 2WD) with rear wheel assist for usual road situations. I wish AWD CRV had a better AWD system with more off road capabilities, and better AWD technology (Honda SH-AWD or Honda Pilot AWD system) with no AWD rear wheel torque limiter, and a center differential for locking manually the front rear torque distribution with a AWD lock mode button or a system similar to Mitsubishi outlander which gives additional 1.5 more torque to the rear wheels if AWD lock mode button is selected but still engages the AWD system automatically.

Fugelen

I was towed out of this one. May be because my back wheels had no torque at all! Buying an awd I would at least expect an awd! Seems i might as well have kept my sedan…

I know your feeling as I was also in your shoes with failure in sand. I was pushed out by 8 people. I had the AWD firmware update after this and now it performs much better. Did you check if your vin number needs this AWD firmware update by the way. Is it a 2013 production CR-V??

What I think is:
1. Clutch type rear differentials are programmable due to a dedicated reprogrammable ECU. Honda has not carried out offroad terrain simulation in order to feed in these hill climb torque requirements in its AWD Control Unit firmware (which this roll test simulates).
2.The clutch pack can be made tighter using additional discs/washers. This will give higher rear torque performance of the rear differentials. In USA it is a very common adjustment (though I doubt it is common in Europe). Maybe Honda did not find the optimum clutch disc number and disc thinkness as the optimum performance was not their priority because they wanted to avoid wear/failure of the discs rather than better performance.
3. For road conditions both snow, wet or dry it is capable enough because the front wheels will aways have some grip, therefore the system will perform adequately.
4. Honda did not offer us the option to lock the AWD system which could give additional torque to the rear wheels at low speeds.
5. It needs a 30 mm ground clearance lifting kit (4 springs) for off road situations.
Hope this info helps a bit. Have your Honda garage perform all ECU firmware update checks before you losse the warantee. I have had 3 firmwares already applied (AWD, VSA and engine/A/T gear box).