Hello! This is my second homebrew I am posting on the forums. This one I worked on with Vellus. Most of you probably have not seen him on the forums as he is quiet new. I have not done any flavor as of yet on this rework, nor do I think it is finished, though I am quiet happy with it. I am going for a duskblade counterpart, a concept I am SURE has been done a millions times. Now onto the show...
NOTE: abilities with a * before their name are stock as of the player's handbook. Also feel free to point out grammatical errors if you are also contributing to constructive criticism.

Spells: A paladin casts divine spells which are drawn from the paladin's spell list. When access to a new level of spells, you automatically know all the spells for that level on the paladin's spell list. You can cast any spell you know without preparing it ahead of time.
To cast a paladin spell, you must have a Charisma score of 10 + the spell's level. The DC for a saving throw against a paladin's spell is 10 + the spell's level + the paladin's Cha modifier. A paladin's caster level is equal to her class level.

Aura of Good (Ex): The power of a paladinís aura of good (see the detect good spell) is equal to her paladin level, just like the aura of a cleric of a good deity.

Smite Evil (Su): A paladin may choose to make a standard melee attack against an evil creature. She adds her Charisma bonus to her attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per paladin level with this attack if she attacks an evil creature. At 13th level she may use this ability on a full attack.

Lay on Hands (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin with a Charisma score of 12 or higher can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. She gains a pool of healing, which allows her to heal a total number of hit points of damage equal to 3 x paladin level ◊ her Charisma bonus per day, but only up to a maximum of her paladin level x her charisma bonus in any one use.
Alternatively, a paladin can use this healing power to deal positive energy damage to undead creatures. Using lay on hands in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesnít provoke an attack of opportunity. The paladin decides how many of her daily allotment of points to use as damage after successfully touching an undead creature (up to the normal cap). The target may make a Will save (DC 10+1/2 Paladin Level+Cha) to half the damage. Using Lay on Hands is a Standard Action.

From 7th level onwards the paladin increases her pool of healing to 4 x paladin level x her Charisma bonus, and the Paladin can also remove conditions with her lay on hands, provided she spends a certain minimum amount of hit points; however the removing of conditions is in addition to the hit points restored. If she meets the healing threshold, she cures all conditions on that list and all of those on the lists below, not just one condition.

If the paladin restores at least 10 hit points, she also removes the dazed, dazzled, diseased, fatigued, shaken, and sickened conditions. If she restores at least 25 hit points, she also removes the confused, exhausted, frightened, nauseated, and poisoned conditions, and also ends magical sleep effects and the effects of the feeblemind spell. If she restores at least 50 hit points, she also removes the blinded, deafened, insanity, panicked, paralysed and stunned conditions. She may cure ability damage instead of hit points, at the rate of 1 ability damage per 5 hit points worth of healing expended. Hit points spent in this way do not count towards removing conditions. Finally, she can also remove negative levels instead of healing hit points, at the rate of 1 negative level per 20 hit points worth of healing expended. Hit points spent in this way do not count towards removing conditions.

Aura of Courage (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, a paladin is immune to fear (magical or otherwise). Each ally that can hear or see the paladin gains a +2 on saves against fear effects.
At 9th level the paladin's aura improves, making each ally that can hear or see her is immune to fear. This ability functions while the paladin is conscious, but not if she is unconscious or dead.

Armor Mastery: You do not suffer the speed reduction from wearing medium armor. In addition, you gain a +1 competence bonus on any shield you wield. At 7th level you ignore the speed reduction from heavy armor, and your competence bonus for shields increases to +2.

Empower Smite Evil: A paladin can empower her smite evil with powerful abilities.* The paladin starts with 1 + Cha mod uses per day and gains an additional use every 5 levels after 5th level.
At 5th level she can empower her smite evil to strike fear into her enemies. If her attack is successful the target is shaken for 1d4 rounds.
At 10th level she can goad an evil creature she hits to attack her and only her. The stricken creature must make a will save 10+paladin level+the paladin's cha mod or be forced to attack only the paladin or include the paladin as a target or in the area of any spell.*
At 15th level the paladin may daze the smitten creature. If hit, the opponent must make a dc 10+1/2 her class level + her cha mod will save or be dazed for 1+1d4 rounds.*
At 20th level the paladin may banish an evil outsider with her smite evil. If her attack is successful, the opponent is affected as if by the dismissal spell but is not allowed a saving throw.
A paladin that empowers her attack retains the charge until an evil creature is hit or a number of rounds equal to her class level have passed.

Celestial Gift: Upon reaching 5th level, a Paladin gains the ability to call an intelligent, celestial spirit to inhabit either an item or an unintelligent being in her employ. It can inhabit weapons, armors or an animal the Paladin is capable of riding as a mount or in the Paladins employ as an animal companion. If the item, or animal, the Spirit is inhabiting breaks, or is killed, the Spirit returns to the Celestial Realm. The spirit remains indefinitely though the Paladin may dismiss the spirit from an item or animal at any time, and may call the spirit as a full round action, but may only call the Spirit once a day. The paladin and the spirit share an empathetic link and can communicate telepathically. An item is treated as a sentient item with the spirit's mental stats.

Advanced Learning: At 6th level, and every 3 levels thereafter, the paladin may select one spell off of the cleric spell list and add it to her list of known spells. This spell cannot be a level more than 1+ the highest spell level the paladin can cast. The learned spell is learned at a spell level of 1- its original spell level, minimum 1.

Divine Grace (Su): At 6th level, a paladin gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws.

Bulwark of Defense: Any opponent that begins its turn in your threatened area treats all squares you threaten as difficult terrain.
At 10th level a paladin's ability to zone her opponents improves. All opponents treat her threatened squares as difficult terrain. She may turn this ability on or off as a free action.

Aura of Resistance (Su): The paladin is immune to charm spells and abilities. Each ally that can see or hear the paladin gains a +2 on saves against charm effects.
At 14th level, the paladin is immune to compulsion spells and abilities. Her allies that can see or hear her are immune to charm spells and abilities and gain a +2 on saves against compulsion effects.

Divine Health (Ex): At 3rd level, a paladin gains immunity to all diseases and poisons, including supernatural and magical diseases (such as mummy rot and lycanthropy).

Battle Blessing: You gain the battle blessing feat. If you already possess the battle blessing feat you may select another feat instead.

Shield Ally: As an immediate action you can choose to block a physical attack targeting an adjacent ally. Until your next turn, each time the target ally would be attacked, you are attacked instead.
At 13th level the paladin's ability to protect her allies improves. She may block targeted spell attacks in addition to physical attacks. If the paladin does so, the spell targets her instead of its original target and the caster rolls their attack against her armor class.

Divine Inspiration (Su): At 12th level, once per encounter a paladin may cast two spells on the paladin list that normally have a cast time as a standard action as a single swift action. This increases to twice per encounter at 15th level and to three times per encounter at 18th level.

Impetuous Endurance: At 13th level, the paladin's fighting spirit enables her to push her body beyond the normal limits of endurance. She no longer automatically fails a saving throw on a roll of 1.
At 16th level, once per encounter, the paladin may reroll a save she failed.

ddude987

2013-06-17, 12:09 AM

This post is reserve post #2

ddude987

2013-06-17, 12:13 AM

Change log

-changed alignment requirement from something weird to any good
-added paladin's gain bonus spells per day for high charisma
-lay on hands now cures magical and nonmagical poisons and diseases
-seperated smite evil and empowered smite evil in text
-cleared up wording on empower smite evil
-improved empowered smite evil's abilities
-added spot, listen, and knowledge (the planes)

Rolep

2013-06-17, 12:39 AM

Not checking the homebrew yet but there are some spelling & formatting mistakes:

Alignment: Any lawful non-evil
Hit Die: d12

I have not worked on an evil paladin yet though I think they should all be lawful. Might develop this more. d12 hit die for tanking. Maybe to high for a gish?

Spells: A paladin casts divine spells which are drawn from the paladin's spell list. When you gain access to a new level of spells, you automatically know all the spells for that level on the paladin's spell list. You can cast any spell you know without preparing it ahead of time.
To cast a paladin spell, you must have a Charisma score of 10 + the spell's level. The DC for a saving throw against a paladin's spell is 10 + the spell's level + the paladin's Cha modifier.
Spontaneous casting and knowing all spells. Do I need to write in they get bonus spells for a high Charisma mod or is that universal with all classes?

*Aura of Good (Ex): The power of a paladinís aura of good (see the detect good spell) is equal to her paladin level, just like the aura of a cleric of a good deity.Should get changed or edited in some way. Maybe make it a different aura. I don't like how paladins can just detect peoples' alignment.

*Detect Evil (Sp): At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell.

Smite Evil (Su): A paladin may choose to make a standard melee attack against an evil creature. She adds her Charisma bonus to her attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per paladin level with this attack if she attacks an evil creature. At 13th level she may use this ability on a full attack.
At 5th level the paladin may empower her smite evil ability. She starts with 1 + Cha mod uses and gains an additional use every 5 levels after 5th level. At 5th level she can empower her smite evil with the bane quality. At 10th level she goad an evil creature she hits must attack her and only her or take a -2 penalty on all attack and damage rolls that are not against the paladin for 1d4 rounds. At 15th level the paladin may daze the smitten creature. If hit, the opponent must make a will save with a DC of 10+1/2 the paladin's ecl + her cha mod or be dazed for one round. At 20th level the paladin may banish an evil outsider with her smite evil. If hit, the outsider is banished to his home plane of existence
and may not return to the plane it is currently on for 1d4 weeks.
Signature paladin ability. Some wording probably needs fixing. I am pretty happy with the general idea of the abilities she gains however.

*Divine Grace (Su): At 2nd level, a paladin gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws.

Lay on Hands (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin with a Charisma score of 12 or higher can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. Each day she can heal a total number of hit points of damage equal to her paladin level ◊ her Charisma bonus. A paladin may choose to divide her healing among multiple recipients, and she doesnít have to use it all at once. Using lay on hands is a normally a standard action, however a paladin using lay on hands on herself is a swift action.
Alternatively, a paladin can use any or all of this healing power to deal damage to undead creatures. Using lay on hands in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesnít provoke an attack of opportunity.
At 6th level the paladins lay on hands ability also cures any nonmagical diseases from any person she heals. At 9th level the lay on hands ability cures nonmagical poisons. At 12th level her ability to cure diseases includes magical diseases. At 15th level her ability to cure poisons includes magical poisons.
Another signature ability I thought was lacking. I want to buff it further. Maybe the paladin can select a few different cc effects from a list that he can cure.

Aura of Courage (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, a paladin is immune to fear (magical or otherwise). Each ally that can hear or see the paladin gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against fear effects. This ability functions while the paladin is conscious, but not if she is unconscious or dead.
Spoiler

Divine Health (Ex): At 3rd level, a paladin gains immunity to all diseases and poisons, including supernatural and magical diseases (such as mummy rot and lycanthropy).

*Turn Undead (Su): When a paladin reaches 4th level, she gains the supernatural ability to turn undead. She may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier. She turns undead as a cleric of three levels lower would.

Special Mount (Sp): Upon reaching 5th level, a paladin gains the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve her in her crusade against evil (see the sidebar). This mount is usually a heavy warhorse (for a Medium paladin) or a warpony (for a Small paladin).
Once per day, as a full-round action, a paladin may magically call her mount from the celestial realms in which it resides. The mount immediately appears adjacent to the paladin and remains for 2 hours per paladin level; it may be dismissed at any time as a free action. The mount is the same creature each time it is summoned, though the paladin may release a particular mount from service (if it has grown too old to join her crusade, for instance). Each time the mount is called, it appears in full health, regardless of any damage it may have taken previously. The mount also appears wearing or carrying any gear it had when it was last dismissed )including barding, saddle, saddlebags, and the like). Calling a mount is a conjuration (calling) effect.
Should the paladinís mount die, it immediately disappears, leaving behind any equipment it was carrying. The paladin may not summon another mount for thirty days or until she gains a paladin level, whichever comes first, even if the mount is somehow returned from the dead. During this thirty-day period, the paladin takes a Ė1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls.
Not sure what, if anything, to change here. I don't like the -1 to attack and damage but its hardly anything in the long run.

And that concludes the paladin remake as of so far. Will be grabbing one more post for a change log among other things.

Do I need to write in they get bonus spells for a high Charisma mod or is that universal with all classes?
You do need to write which stat grants the bonus spells as some classes are MAD in this respect.

1/2 the paladin's ecl
Do you mean class level (levels in paladin), character level (levels in all classes), or ECL (which includes level adjustment etc.). Class level would be the normal type to use.

She turns undead as a cleric of three levels lower would.
Three levels lower than what (e.g. class level, character level)

Kamai

2013-06-17, 12:45 AM

Looking at this, I want to ask what you're trying to do with this remake. From a first look, I'm going to put my thoughts in bullet points.

Alignment: I'm really confused at the paragon of good being any lawful non-evil instead of maybe LG or NG.

HD/Skills: I do like where you're going with them. I'd add Know(planes) [demons, devils, etc], and I don't see any sense in not having Spot/Listen. Balance is also very awkward for a Paladin skill.

Spells: You do need to list the stat for bonus spells. Things like the favored Soul and Spirit Shaman use different stats for bonus spells and Save DCs. I'm curious to see how you'd change the spell list (if at all). I also feel like there's a lot of spell slots, but that'd depend on the spell list.

Alignment Aura/Detect Evil: If you don't like how Paladins detect alignment, then Detect Evil is what you'd want rid of. I think with properly enforced evil auras (basically having undead, evil outsiders, and evil clerics be most of the stuff that pings on it) it should work fine. If you want to codify it, that's where I'd put it.

Smite Evil: I didn't like how 3.5's felt (one slightly less weak attack/day), and this just feels like favored enemy (Evil) right now for 1-4. I'd also just list Empower Smite Evil as a separate ability, so it's much clearer that the 1+Cha uses is not for Smite Evil. Also, as of right now, if you can full attack (between 6 and 12, or if you weapon/shield or TWF at any level <13), it's not going to be worth smiting evil.

Empower Smite Evil: This is where not being allowed to full attack slightly becomes worth it, but it is a real mess right now. Is there a saving throw (there really should be)? Bane quality? Bane what? Can I bane Humanoid(human) and Dragon against a half-dragon? Does it only last for 1 attack or one round? Goad is neat, but the -2 damage is fidgety. Basically, it's not a meaningful drop in damage at 10+, but it's still there to have to remember. Also, how does it work with Whirlwind attack or Fireball or the like? Then the daze? Scales off of ECL? Nothing scales off of ECL. A paladin 10/Cleric 10 (terrible idea, btw) will have this scale as hard as a Paladin 20? A no-save Banish? What happens if these effects miss? Are they expended? Do they last to the end of the round? What if I hit a non-evil creature with it?

Aura of Courage: Silence effects could be pretty common, and darkness effects are common. Are they common enough for you to keep that in mind?

Lay on hands: This sounds so familiar...Probably because Pathfinder did basically what you did, including a long list of choices.

Special Mount: The mount is iconic, but have you thought of anything else for campaigns where a mount might not be appropriate?

Looking at the table, the question you should ask is "Why would I want to stay in this class?". I don't see enough that makes it more than a 2 level dip.

AuraTwilight

2013-06-17, 12:58 AM

Holy dead levels, Batman!

eftexar

2013-06-17, 01:22 AM

I'm just going to be bluntly honest. This doesn't really improve the Paladin at all and feels even more oddly balanced than the original.

I agree that lawful is kind of queer to tack on. Why not "any non-evil" or "any good"? Either opens up the Paladin and fits the flavor better. Just because you follow a code doesn't mean you necessarily follow the law.

If you are unhappy with the current Detect Evil, it might be better suited as a short range, maybe 5ft or 15ft, blindsense that detects evil creatures, items, and auras automatically. You could then allow a will save or bluff check, in secret, to avoid detection.

Changing when spells gained and then over-inflating how many can be cast is kind of lazy and doesn't really do anything, but lengthen the work day and unbalance it at lower levels. If you plan on leaving the levels this empty just use Bard spells per day and add some spells for 5th-6th level.

What's with magical poison? Most healing spells and abilities affect any and all poison (unlike with disease). Besides both your remove disease and remove poison effects come too late in the game. Plus Panacea is, I believe, a second level spell.

Mount still seems really forced. I can play a Wizard or Sorcerer without a familiar, but the mount is such a major feature on the Paladin I feel punished if I don't use it. This wouldn't normally be an issue, but I think the core classes need to remain more generic and open.

And well, yeah, way too many dead levels. At least unless you go with 6th level spells.

ddude987

2013-06-17, 12:54 PM

Alignment: I'm really confused at the paragon of good being any lawful non-evil instead of maybe LG or NG.
Fixed!

HD/Skills: I do like where you're going with them. I'd add Know(planes) [demons, devils, etc], and I don't see any sense in not having Spot/Listen. Balance is also very awkward for a Paladin skill.
Fixed!

Spells: You do need to list the stat for bonus spells. Things like the favored Soul and Spirit Shaman use different stats for bonus spells and Save DCs. I'm curious to see how you'd change the spell list (if at all). I also feel like there's a lot of spell slots, but that'd depend on the spell list.
Fixed!

Alignment Aura/Detect Evil: If you don't like how Paladins detect alignment, then Detect Evil is what you'd want rid of. I think with properly enforced evil auras (basically having undead, evil outsiders, and evil clerics be most of the stuff that pings on it) it should work fine. If you want to codify it, that's where I'd put it.
That sounds like a good idea. What do you mean by enforce evil auras? Would that be a new rule or just something already existing I am oblivious to?

Empower Smite Evil: This is where not being allowed to full attack slightly becomes worth it, but it is a real mess right now. Is there a saving throw (there really should be)? Bane quality? Bane what? Can I bane Humanoid(human) and Dragon against a half-dragon? Does it only last for 1 attack or one round? Goad is neat, but the -2 damage is fidgety. Basically, it's not a meaningful drop in damage at 10+, but it's still there to have to remember. Also, how does it work with Whirlwind attack or Fireball or the like? Then the daze? Scales off of ECL? Nothing scales off of ECL. A paladin 10/Cleric 10 (terrible idea, btw) will have this scale as hard as a Paladin 20? A no-save Banish? What happens if these effects miss? Are they expended? Do they last to the end of the round? What if I hit a non-evil creature with it?
I'll start revising this right away. I agree, it really is a mess.

Lay on hands: This sounds so familiar...Probably because Pathfinder did basically what you did, including a long list of choices.
Wow. That's interesting. If 3.PF did it I guess running with it isn't a bad idea afterall.

Special Mount: The mount is iconic, but have you thought of anything else for campaigns where a mount might not be appropriate?
I'll look into creating an acf to trade your mount.

Looking at the table, the question you should ask is "Why would I want to stay in this class?". I don't see enough that makes it more than a 2 level dip.
Still working on adding things, but I see your point. A few levels and then leaving it would be the best option as it is now. I wanted to give her more abilities but at the moment I'm either at a loss for ideas or afraid of making it to powerful. I wanted this remake to become a sort of divine duskblade.

Holy dead levels, Batman!
Aye! That needs to be fixed. Any ideas on what to fill some of them with?

Changing when spells gained and then over-inflating how many can be cast is kind of lazy and doesn't really do anything, but lengthen the work day and unbalance it at lower levels. If you plan on leaving the levels this empty just use Bard spells per day and add some spells for 5th-6th level.I don't think its to many spells, nor is it lazy. I am going for a divine duskblade. He gets more spells per day than this. I suppose it seems lazy to just improve spellcasting and call it a class but that is the actual idea I am going for.

I
What's with magical poison? Most healing spells and abilities affect any and all poison (unlike with disease). Besides both your remove disease and remove poison effects come too late in the game. Plus Panacea is, I believe, a second level spell.Hmm okay I'll remove that and just make the two heal improvements do magical and nonmagical early.

I and well, yeah, way too many dead levels. At least unless you go with 6th level spells.
Any ideas for the dead levels? I am still working on this a bit.

eftexar

2013-06-17, 01:49 PM

The Duskblade remains one of my favorite classes, but it still has a few problems. Primarily the fact you spend the first few levels casting Shocking Touch without any other options.

That besides the point, you seem to be missing mine. Increasing the spells per day and moving them around doesn't help with such a limited spell list along with the lower level spells.
A longer work day also doesn't help the Paladin unless he gains expanded utility and less limits on his other abilities.

As far as dead levels go I would look at the Marshal and the Knight for ideas. It could use some defensive and support abilities. Maybe even the ability to interpose himself between an adjacent ally and attack.
If you are going for a divine duskblade you might even consider letting him spend some of his spell slots, since he know has so many, to temporarily enchant his weapon. I would even say a free quicken spell like the Duskblade might be in order.

nonsi

2013-06-21, 04:55 AM

The Duskblade remains one of my favorite classes, but it still has a few problems. Primarily the fact you spend the first few levels casting Shocking Touch without any other options.

Well, here's a challenge for you :smallsmile:

ddude987

2013-07-04, 12:32 AM

Well I think I found a great and new idea for fixing the "I don't want a mount" problem. I am considering adding some things from the knight class such as the challenge soon. First input on the new "mount" would be nice. I am relatively satisfied with it. Credit to myself and Vellus for it.

Xerlith

2013-07-05, 08:04 AM

There are no mental stats of the Spirit. Also it's not clarified - is it able to remain by paladin's side indefinitely until dismissed?

Also, it still doesn't really help the Paladin. I had some fun with Mystic Paladin variant (lose mount, some abilities come later, but 0-5 lvl casting with 0th and 5th level spells from the Cleric list. Analogue to the Mystic Ranger) mixed with SotAO + Knight of the Weave + Abjurant Champion, but... It wasn't thanks to the class, not really.
What the Paladin lacks is options. This rework does little to help it.

At 8th, 12th and 16th level you might want to grant Advanced Learning (from the Cleric's list). It'd be a nice touch. Maybe also at 4th.
Also, this... Has all of its nice abilities jammed into the first 4-6 levels. There's no real benefit of taking further levels.

Xaotiq1

2013-07-05, 08:40 AM

Instead of the whole "celestial spirit" thing; you could look at the Divine Spirit ACF from Dungeonscape. It's not a travellin' buddy like you've got here, but there's a bit more variety, and honestly, I dig 'em.

Cloud

2013-07-05, 10:12 AM

If you don't have the crusader or knight class in your game, a d12 hit die seems appropriate, but otherwise it seems a bit high. A d12 hit die is basically the only thing the knight has going for it, and well if any class should have a d12 but doesn't it's the crusader.

I agree 4+ int skill points is right (6+ doesn't fit at all, and 2+ int is too small for any class that doesn't use int as a main stat). I don't think balance particularly fits, nor does spellcraft despite them having spells, but it doesn't matter too much either. If you didn't want to change the number of class skills they have, honestly climb, jump, swim, etc. seem a better fit than balance (not that I think it needs those skills either, just I think some strength based physical skills fit better than dex based ones). While it might not fit in with your idea of a paladin, Intimidate might be an okay skill. Nothing is quite as scary as an angry "fist of God". XD

Smite evil is at-will now? I...hrmm, I'm not sure about that. It certainly makes smite evil more useful, but I'd rather buff smite evil a little bit, and give it some sort of limit (albeit a generous one, perhaps a per-encounter limit). I mean I know a Rogue can sneak attack basically all the time, but Smite Evil feels like it should be more...important, than just a constant buff. Plus it might not be a problem but it does promote two-weapon fighting for a paladin.

Lay on Hands could probably be buffed further, something like 4 * Level * Cha modifier doesn't seem too out of line (though only Level * Cha in any one use). Though if it was increased like that perhaps it shouldn't be usable as a swift action on yourself, not sure. It should probably for sure get rid of conditions, at least as your level increases. For what it's worth this is what I would use;
Lay on Hands (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin with a Charisma score of 12 or higher can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. She gains a pool of healing, which allows her to heal a total number of hit points of damage equal to triple her paladin level ◊ her Charisma bonus per day, but only up to a maximum of her paladin level x her charisma bonus in any one use. (Her Charisma bonus is also limited to her paladin level.) A paladin may choose to divide her healing among multiple recipients, and she doesnít have to use it all at once.

Alternatively, a paladin can use this healing power to deal damage to undead creatures. Using lay on hands in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesnít provoke an attack of opportunity. The paladin decides how many of her daily allotment of points to use as damage after successfully touching an undead creature (up to the normal cap). The target may make a Will save (DC 10+1/2 Paladin Level+Cha) to half the damage. Using Lay on Hands is a Standard Action.

From 7th level onwards the paladin increases her pool of healing to quadruple her paladin level x her Charisma bonus, and the Paladin can also remove conditions with her lay on hands, provided she spends a certain minimum amount of hit points; however the removing of conditions is in addition to the hit points restored. If she meets the healing threshold, she cures all conditions on that list and all of those on the lists below, not just one condition.

If the paladin restores at least 10 hit points, she also removes the dazed, dazzled, diseased, fatigued, shaken, and sickened conditions. If she restores at least 25 hit points, she also removes the confused, exhausted, frightened, nauseated, and poisoned conditions, and also ends magical sleep effects and the effects of the feeblemind spell. If she restores at least 50 hit points, she also removes the blinded, deafened, insanity, panicked, paralysed and stunned conditions. She may cure ability damage instead of hit points, at the rate of 1 ability damage per 5 hit points worth of healing expended. Hit points spent in this way do not count towards removing conditions. Finally, she can also remove negative levels instead of healing hit points, at the rate of 1 negative level per 20 hit points worth of healing expended. Hit points spent in this way do not count towards removing conditions.

Aura of Courage needs the buff, but honestly I'd go so far as to extend the immunity to the paladin's allies.

Ah...Empower Smite really needs to be reworded, it doesn't make sense at the moment.

I'd also probably give the class less spells (not too few less though) but maybe actually give them orisons. I wouldn't give them spontaneous casting either (particularly with Battle Blessing and Spell Compendium spells in play), but I would instead expand there spell list. If you wanted to give them spontaneous casting, you'd probably have to cut down the spell list some. If you wanted to make them more like the Duskblade, I'd make the Battle Blessing feat just part of the class, and maybe give them a feature like this.
Divine Inspiration (Su): At 7th level, once per encounter a paladin may cast two spells on the paladin list that normally have a cast time as a standard action as a single swift action. This increases to twice per encounter at 13th level and to trice per encounter at 19th level.

ddude987

2013-09-09, 03:53 PM

Thank you Cloud. I took your suggestions to heart, and even used your lay on hands rework. That rework is what I have been looking for but could not put onto paper (or pixels). Thank you.

I also added a new replacement for the mount. It is a celestial spirit and though it may seem a bit silly, its unique and more flexible than the mount, which is what I wanted. Also I haven't thunk up mental stats for it yet. I think I will have them scale with level, perhaps like a familiar of a Wizard or Sorcerer.

Lastly, I have not fixed the paladins spells nor spell list. I am still thunking up a fix.

ngilop

2013-09-09, 04:40 PM

I like this fix, its very elegant and at the same time very simplistic.

Empowered Smite is my favorite thing on this remake. though I would also make the lvl 20 empowered smite do a disruption effect on Undead with no save as well as the dismissal effect you already give to evil outsiders. If not having the undead disruptionc oem online a level or 2 earlier

I would cut down on the number of spells per day maybe make it 6/5/5/4 and at around 8th to 12th level give them battle blessing as a bonus feat. As for the spell list I think with the inclusion of Spell Compendium its a great spell list. but if you want to exapnd maybe give paladins a choice at every Xth level to get a spell of certain school/subschool or any spell with the Good Descriptor. that way each player can personalize their own spell addition.

at 8th level I would give them Aura of Resolve making them immune to detrimental mind effecting spells and giving allies a +4 bonus to saves vs mind affecting.

Also, I have always felt that any class that does not get 6th level spells deserves a capstone. maybe a perma-holy aura as a (Su) effect.

what I have suggeated is leaning towards filling in some dead levels. SO if you do incorprate my suggestions feel free to place them any where you want in the paladins level.

ddude987

2013-09-11, 12:32 AM

Thanks for the suggestions!

So far I have added advanced learning and added a few of the knights class features that I liked to the Paladin. I am still debating how I want to work spells for the Paladin, and I am still considering the spirits mental stats. Other than that, I think the class as a whole has fixed some of the dead level problem. Thank you to everyone for the wonderful suggestions and let's keep the train rolling.

Zelkon

2013-09-11, 06:19 AM

This is a really nice fix. I love the spellcasting progression and other fixes; it allows paladins to be effective healers as well. Good Idea on making Smite Evil at-will, although to improve it's usefulness I'd just make it Smite Foe or Smite Heretic. I think Grater Smite Evil could be per/encounter instead of per day. The Lay on Hands fix is simple and elegant, and curing conditions are a good idea. I might make Lay on Hands a swift action to make sure the paladin doesn't have to give up his main role just to heal a few hit points. Celestial Spirit is awesome, I have to say. Theres a typo in Advanced Learning. It says "This spell cannot be a level more than 1+ the highest spell level the paladin can cast. The learned spell is learned at a spell level of 1- its original spell level, minimum level 1." You mean to say "its original spell level -1", or else all spells the paladin learns from Advanced Learning are first level, which might be a bit overpowered (but hey, the paladin needs all the help it can get).
My complaint, then, is not anything you did do but what you didn't do. Fourth Level spellcasting isn't enough to warrant not getting any new abilities past 7th level or so. I'd fill it in a bit, because every improvement you've made so far has been really good and it can only get better.

ddude987

2013-09-13, 12:57 PM

Thanks for the input. For the advanced learning, I wanted it to be the paladin can learn any cleric spell of 1 level more than he can cast, and the spells he learns off the cleric list are 1 level lower. The reason is then he can get some 5th level goodies off the cleric list as 4th level spells which is where he caps. Also, yes I am thinking of more impressive abilities for empower smite evil and making it encounter based seems a good idea though I don't want it spammable to much, and I'm hesitant to just increase the paladin's work day, will that really help him that much.
Lastly, while I am proud of this rework I got asked an interesting question from a friend the other day. What do I want this paladin to do, and then I thought what niche does stock paladin fit in? I feel as though it doesn't and that this remake doesn't really have a good place to exists in a normal 4 person party either. Any thoughts on this?

The Corinthian

2013-09-13, 02:55 PM

I want to say: A paladin is a frontline fighter, who is
1. particularly effective against fiends, undead and evil spellcasters (That being more of a niche than "all evil creatures"; almost everything a party of typical adventurers fights is evil.)
2. significantly less effective against non-evil opponents
3. typically more defensively focused (with protective spells, good saves and armor) than other full-BaB types
4. has some divine spells and spell-like abilities, mostly for support and healing, with a few divinations and combat buffs.

ddude987

2013-09-18, 01:20 PM

Hrmm I suppose Paladin could fit the fighting-man/defender role equally well. Do you, and anybody else who reads this, think this rework adds versatility to the Paladin and still keeps the paladin in flavor?

eftexar

2013-09-19, 09:33 PM

It is incredibly top heavy with all of it's features in the earlier levels. And while this is certainly better than the original Paladin it still carries many of it's problems.

Before I get to that though, the Celestial Gift is definately a great addition and adds some much needed options to the Paladin.

Anyways, here's what I would do. I would spread the class features across the rest of the class, so it isn't so heavy at the start, make divine inspiration allow a single melee attack and spell as a full round action (instead of two spells as a swift), and then give the Paladin spells per day as a Bard (and add some appropriate spells of 5th and 6th level to his list).

Essentially the weakness of the original Paladin is not the daily limit on abilities necessarily, even though that is a factor, but the fact the class suffers from Fighter syndrome.
A bit more into my thoughts on that if you're interested:
It has plenty of abilities, but they are all weak and not very synergistic. Simply put, 4th level spells do not necessarily make a functional spellcaster, while 20 BaB and d10 hd do not instantly make a succesful warrior.
Other factors have to be taken into account. Think about why the Ranger works so much better: The Ranger can enchance himself, or allies, much better and also has some battlefield control to boot. He also has access to a wide variety of skills, the hide in plain sight ability, and an animal companion.
The Paladin, meanwhile, has some defense and healing, but functions with those roles just about as well as he does actual combat. Try looking at the Crusader to see why it's such a great class.

ddude987

2013-09-23, 11:33 PM

Reading crusader, the Paladin has a lot of its abilities for tanking, and some very similar to the crusader. While I did not extensively look at his maneuvers, this remake of the paladin can do most of what crusader can do. Thank you for the compliment on my celestial spirit idea, which I later found out PF did, much to my dismay. I do agree the class is a bit top heavy. Should I push abilities back or just round it out with more abilities?

eftexar

2013-09-24, 02:21 PM

I think how you handle the abilities depends on if you are happy with the current power level.

Personally I think you could drop the spells per day back down to 4 and add up to 6th level spells, picking out a few spells for each of those levels, since his list is so limited to begin with. If you do that I would say to push some of the abilities to later levels so it isn't quite as topheavy.

But, if you are happy with it's current capabilities, you could also just add more minor abilities so it isn't as lopsided. That would work just as well.

TheFamilarRaven

2013-09-24, 02:22 PM

Alignment: Lawful Good or Neutral Good

I like the addition of NG being available to the class. specifically becuase at my table, paladins tend to be under played because my players feel like LG is a restrictive alignment. :smallannoyed:

Also, I'm glad you didn't make it any, because Shadow paladins? C'mon! That's why they have Blackguards! Anyway that was my little tangent. Moving on to my suggestions.

Spells: A paladin casts divine spells which are drawn from the paladin's spell list. When access to a new level of spells, you automatically know all the spells for that level on the paladin's spell list. You can cast any spell you know without preparing it ahead of time.
To cast a paladin spell, you must have a Charisma score of 10 + the spell's level. The DC for a saving throw against a paladin's spell is 10 + the spell's level + the paladin's Cha modifier. A paladin's caster level is equal to her class level.
Spontaneous casting and knowing all spells. Currently working on adding more spells to the list

Not sure how I feel about paladins being spontaneous casters. To me, paladins are trained to cast spells. But this is for your campaign setting so its up to you. however, Ido liek the switch from WIS to CHA for spells, becuase under the old system, Paladins needed STR, CHA, CON and a decent WIS, making them very weak under the standard point buy system or alloted stats.

Smite Evil (Su): A paladin may choose to make a standard melee attack against an evil creature. She adds her Charisma bonus to her attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per paladin level with this attack if she attacks an evil creature. At 11th level she may use this ability on a full attack.

This is a lot of damage and bonus attack by level 11. I would limit the use of this as others have suggested. .

Aura of Courage (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, a paladin is immune to fear (magical or otherwise). Each ally that can hear or see the paladin is also immune to fear. This aura does not function is the paladin is unconscious.

Much better version of this ability. Just a thought since you seem to be having truoble with some dead levels. Why not boost the aura at higher levels to give bonus resistance to negative energy?

Bulwark of Defense: Any opponent that begins its turn in your threatened area treats all squares you threaten as difficult terrain.

I've always though of the paladin as a tank class more than anything else. Good to see they now have some useful abilities to help with that.

Empower Smite Evil: A paladin can empower her smite evil with powerful abilities.
At 5th level,the paladin starts with 1 + Cha mod uses per day and gains an additional use every 5 levels after 5th level. At 5th level she can empower her smite evil to strike fear into her enemies. If her attack is successful the target is shaken for 1d4 rounds.
At 10th level she can goad an evil creature she hits to attack her and only her. The stricken creature must make a will save 10+paladin level+the paladin's cha mod or be forced to attack only the paladin or include the paladin as a target or in the area of any spell for 1d4 rounds.
At 15th level the paladin may daze the smitten creature. If hit, the opponent must make a dc 10+1/2 her class level + her cha mod will save or be dazed for 1+1d4 rounds.
At 20th level the paladin may banish an evil outsider with her smite evil. If her attack is successful, the opponent is affected as if by the dismissal spell but is not allowed a saving throw.
A paladin that empowers her attack retains the charge until an evil creature is hit or a number of rounds equal to her class level have passed.
Signature paladin ability. Some wording probably needs fixing. I am pretty happy with the general idea of the abilities she gains however

Nice ability, I like it

Celestial Gift: Upon reaching 5th level, a Paladin gains the ability to call an intelligent, celestial spirit to inhabit either an item or an unintelligent being in her employ. It can inhabit weapons, armors or an animal the Paladin is capable of riding as a mount or in the Paladins employ as an animal companion. If the item, or animal, the Spirit is inhabiting breaks, or is killed, the Spirit returns to the Celestial Realm. The spirit remains indefinitely though the Paladin may dismiss the spirit from an item or animal at any time, and may call the spirit as a full round action, but may only call the Spirit once a day. The paladin and the spirit share an empathetic link and can communicate telepathically. An item is treated as a sentient item with the spirit's mental stats.

A few things with this ability. I would change the name, because you're not really "giving" anything, you calling on a divine spirit for aid.
2nd: If you imbue a weapon with the spirit, (levels 5-8), it becomes good aligned. Unless I'm mistaken, Good aligned weapons automatically overcome the DR of Devils demons Etc. (at least alignment-wise not material wise), so having the ability to overcome DR/good (which I believe is what you meant, because only good aligned creatures have DR/Evil) at level 13-16 is redundant.

Other then that, I like the alternatives to the mount (because honestly, it's fairly useless in a dungeon) you might want to look up the Paladin variant in DungeonScape

Armor Mastery: You [ignore] the speed reduction from medium armor. In addition, you gain a +1 shield bonus on any shield you wield. At 10th level you ignore the speed reduction from heavy armor, and your shield bonus increases to +2

Nice.

Shield Ally: As an immediate action you can choose to absorb part of the damage dealt to an adjacent ally. Until your next turn, each time the target ally takes damage from a physical attack, you can take half this damage. The target takes the other half as normal. You can only absorb damage from physical melee and ranged attacks.

I like it. Plus, if you're still having problems with Dead levels, consider upgrading this to spell damage, the cleric would love to not take full damage from AoE spells because of his lame reflex save

Advanced Learning: At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the paladin may select one spell off of the cleric spell list and add it to her list of known spells. This spell can be up to one more than the highest level spell the paladin can cast and is treated as one level lower than its original level when on the paladin spell list.

Work on the wording here, as I believe others have said.

Impetuous Endurance: At 17th level, your fighting spirit enables you to push your body beyond the normal limits of endurance. You no longer automatically fails a saving throw on a roll of 1.speaking,

Frankly speaking, (unless I'm horribly wrong, which is always possible) the 1 = automatic fail rule was never in the standard rules. It's just a very popular variant suggested in the core books. Now, understandably this class is for your campaign world so there's not much I can say other than that this ability is very under powered for those DM's looking to adapt this class to their world and don't use that rule. But they can just come up with their own variant. bada-bing, problem solved.

Other than that, it seems fairly under powered altogether. Because even if you don't have the rule where you automatically fail on a roll of 1, if you're rolling a save against (say a spell of appropriate challenge level), rolling a 1 almost guarantees a failure anyway

Maybe that was more of a tangent than an actual suggestion. Sorry.

Other than, you're on the right track with this class. Keep up the good work!
If i said anything incorrect or out of line, feel free to slap me across the face

Cloud

2013-09-24, 10:08 PM

...the 1 = automatic fail rule was never in the standard rules.

This is actually part of the core rules, PHB pg. 136, or here in the SRD;
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#savingThrows

The confusion might be that while the automatic failure and success rules also apply to attack rolls, there are no such thing as 'fumbles', and the automatic failure and success rules do NOT apply to skill or ability checks.

Divine Grace: Might not be a problem, but if you're worried about the class being top-heavy, you can always make this bonus cap at the Paladin's class level. (I'd also type it as something, probably sacred, but that's not as important.)

Bulwark of Defense: ...Maybe this is how the Knight does it as well, I don't remember, but it seems odd the monster only checks at the start of its turn. If it's outside of your reach at the start of its turn it can just...walk around you just fine? It would probably be fine for enemies to simply treat all squares you threaten as difficult terrain. Then again this means monsters also have a problem on actually advancing on the Paladin, which actually might hurt the whole 'tank' aspect, so it might be better as it is, just ideas.

Armor Mastery: ...I know the class is already a bit 'top-heavy', so I feel odd in suggesting this but level 10 is way to late to start being able to use heavy armour without penalty. I'd probably suck up the armour penalties until level 6 (which is probably still to late for an ability like this but not as bad), and then switch to mithral fullplate. ...Actually given the general lack of decent special materials, this not matter at all and people might just use mithral anyway...

Shield Ally: This needs some clarification, like what if the blow sickens a target, or dazes them, etc. who gets effected? What about knockback? ...Speaking of force movement while it would seem obvious in intent, but once you've targeted an ally, nothing about the ability says they have to remain adjacent for this to continue to work. ...I feel a little awkward to keep throwing up abilities I've written, and this version actually requires the paladin to have a shield, and doesn't last an entire turn,so it's not the same thing, but maybe the wording will help with some of the other issues.
"...as long as the paladin is wielding a shield (and is not flatfooted or otherwise prevented from taking action), the paladin may interpose herself between an adjacent ally and an incoming attack as an immediate action. The paladin absorbs all damage from this single attack, and any additional effects it might have (such as something requiring a save, etc.). If the ally you covered for suffers more attacks from the same creature (such as from a full attack), you may block these attacks too. You must decide to use this ability after the attacker determines the attack has succeeded but before she rolls damage. At 11th level using this ability can be used once per round without using the paladin's immediate action and at 15th level any damage received for covering an ally is halved."

Impetuous Endurance: While I actually think this is more useful then people tend to give this ability credit for (a truly optimised character is only going to fail saves on a 1, particularly when a paladin is adding anywhere from +8 to +12 to his saves), I agree at level 17 it feels a little...lackluster. You could also give them the ability to reroll one saving throw per encounter. If per encounter abilities aren't your thing, you could make it X times per day...I'm just having a problem thinking a good number that won't be abused in the BBEG fight to be effectively immune to everything that needs a save.

If you're still looking for suggestions for those dead levels, here are three I had. No idea if they're actually any good or fit your paladin, but here they are. ...Given where your paladin currently has dead levels, I suppose better levels would be 13, 18, and 19 instead.
Mettle (Ex): At 14th level, a paladin gains the benefits of Mettle.

Aura of Resolve (Su): At 17th level, a paladin is immune to charm and compulsion spells and spell-like abilities. Each ally within 100 ft of her also gains this immunity. This ability functions only while the paladin is conscious, not if she is unconscious or dead.

A Hero Never Falls (Ex): At 19h level, the paladin's sheer strength of will drives her on when death would claim lesser men. Once per day when a paladin would be reduced to 0 or less hit points or otherwise killed (such as by a death effect), she instead is restored to half her hit points. If the paladin would be killed by having an ability score reduced to zero, that score is restored to half its maximum value. This effect doesn't work on attacks from unchallenging creatures. The DM is encouraged to rule this effect doesn't work if the Paladin tries to use it a free healing ability by killing herself or something equally unheroic or against the intent of the effect.

TheFamilarRaven

2013-09-24, 10:23 PM

This is actually part of the core rules, PHB pg. 136, or here in the SRD;
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#savingThrows

The confusion might be that while the automatic failure and success rules also apply to attack rolls, there are no such thing as 'fumbles', and the automatic failure and success rules do NOT apply to skill or ability checks.

Gotcha, thanks for the correction. Looks like I've been playing this game wrong the whole time! Not that it matters, cause I use the fumble rules anyway ('cept on skill an ability checks) :smalltongue:

However I'll take this time to restate my opinion that the ability [Impetuous Endurance:] itself is underpowered. Not that its useless, granted it almost guarantees immunity from low level spells, even those cast by CR appropriate creatures. But I think it should be expanded upon. For instance, be able to reroll a failed save x/day

Amnoriath

2013-09-24, 11:39 PM

A couple of things, smite evil should count at least count as good aligned for damage reduction, if not bonus damage as holy damage. I always liked the idea of adding charisma to damage as well as in low level play otherwise this ability is out classed by a Barbarian's Rage.
Divine Inspiration, no just no two standard action spells as a swift action can easily equal a done encounter. Perhaps a party boost?
Otherwise I really like the options of Smite and Celestial Gift as it can accomodate multiple kinds of characters to use one or more aspects.

ddude987

2013-10-13, 08:24 PM

Completely overhauled the paladin. I realized so many abilities were in there just because stock pali had them but they weren't required. Still working on spell list remake and I will be thinking of things to fill in the dead levels at 14+. Lowered his spells per day as well.

silphael

2013-10-14, 09:05 AM

To fill the dead levels, you could add something like Divine/Heroic Ascendancy, giving your pali the ability to cast Lesser/-/Greater Visage of the Deity some times per day, maybe with duration based on min/lvl. Not THAT powerfull, but it's a nice ability to have ("i can turn into an angel, beware!")

Kamai

2013-10-14, 07:22 PM

I'm a bit surprised to see this again. I'm seeing some really nice changes, but for another wave of input:

That sounds like a good idea. What do you mean by enforce evil auras? Would that be a new rule or just something already existing I am oblivious to?

What I was originally saying here is that Detect Evil is often misplayed. A lot of times, it's run that anything evil will blip on Detect Evil. The important thing is that 3.5's Detect evil is only supposed to blip on Undead/Outsiders/Clerics that have less than 10HD. At that point, if it's important that Detect Evil doesn't derail things, there's enough magic to get around it. Before that, it only comes up on Evil (capitalized for emphasis).

Smite Evil: I'd concur to adding Charisma to damage, or at least add that in at 6 (when he'd have multiple attacks).

Armor Mastery: What is that competence bonus to? I assume that it's a competence bonus to your Shield bonus, but that is some really awkward stacking. Also, do bucklers apply this bonus?

Empowered Smite Evil: So Empowered Smite Evil seems to require using Smite Evil. I have 0 idea how it coordinates with actual Smite Evil. It is a neat idea, but it also has the oddity of using full class level for the DC. Is it intended to be harder to save against than normal?

Celestial Gift: I don't know if I like how it's setup at all. First off, most of those things you should actually explain out separately. The short text doesn't say much of what's needed to be known. Like the animal companion class feature, you need to go and explain each mechanic below the table, especially since there are things like Regeneration (which doesn't have a quantity).

Spells: Spell level - 1 does not equal 1 - spell level. So you can essentially cast up to 5th level cleric spells? Does it feel right for the Paladin to be able to Raise Dead? It could be very nice, but it does need some more rewording.

Knockdown (Celestial Gift-Weapon) and Battle Blessing: I don't like the assumption that they have the book handy for these feats especially for something that's supposed to replace a core class. You should consider explaining what you want these to do.

Impetuous Defense: Maybe put the per encounter save reroll per day at lower levels, and then push it to per encounter, to bring this into play sooner. Maybe per day, with a recharge mechanic not unlike Dragon's breath. [Once you use this ability, you cannot use it again for 1d4 rounds].