If you hope to make it through the day without losing all hope in humanity, you may not wish to read the following thoughts on Ray and Janay Rice from our old friend from The Spearhead, W.F. Price.

I know people instinctively and reflexively sympathize with the victim of a brutal attack, but …

Yeah, I’m giving you all one more chance to back out of this right now, because we all know that nothing good is going to come after that “but.”

… there comes a time when one has to ask whether or not the victim bears some responsibility for putting herself in this situation. Does Janay really think that will be the last time Rice gives her a beatdown? And even if she does, what statement is she making in marrying a man willing to treat her like that?

The statement is clear: she thinks the violence is a reasonable tradeoff for whatever she gets in return for her relationship, whether it’s sexual gratification, status or money. …

But feminists would have us believe that domestic violence is a patriarchal imposition, despite the fact that married women in patriarchal families suffer the lowest rates of domestic violence of all partnered women in the United States.

In fact, study after study after study after study find that domestic violence rates tend to be highest amongst those with traditional – that is, patriarchal – values.

Let’s let Price continue, as we haven’t even gotten to the worst stuff yet.

Maybe feminists think the patriarchy has secretly implanted little chips in women’s brains that lead them to seek out men who will beat them up.

Somehow, instead of choosing granola-crunching lesbians, these women make a beeline for musclebound athletes, beefy bikers and ghetto thugs.

How many different types of bigotry can he fit into one sentence? I count three.

But maybe it isn’t the patriarchy. Maybe there’s something about female sexuality that defies feminist ideals. Perhaps it’s kind of a chaotic, anarchic thing that doesn’t pay attention to pronouncements about what’s right and proper.

Maybe, just maybe, the only way to really cut down on intimate violence would be to restrict women’s sexual freedom.

Oh, but Price stops just short of explicitly advocating that men should be put in charge of women’s sexuality.

Would I advocate for that? No. As adults, women should make their own decisions in that regard. However, to blame men in general for the results of women’s sexual decisions is absolutely unacceptable.

As terrible as Price’s post is, the comments from The Spearhead’s regulars are, as usual, even worse.

According to the fellow who calls himself TFH,

The biggest error that Western Civ ever made was assuming that women could be ‘adults’. …

The woman’s brain-gina interface is obsolete. She is programmed to get gina tingles from men who were suited to excel in the world of pre-historic times, while she is programmed to be revulsed by the man who would have fared poorly then (the introverted STEM guys of today).

One cannot fully understand why women write love letters to serial killers and continue to get back with violent boyfriends, without also realizing the hate that women have for tech nerds, and how there is an obsessive push to divert tech money to women (i.e. they hate that money is appearing in the hands of men their gina does not tingle for).

Again, the brain-gina interface of women is obsolete. That is the most complete explanation.

Back in The Spearhead’s comment section, meanwhile, Eric J Schlegel trots out some evo-psych just-so stories to buttress a similarly backwards conclusion:

Women get the ‘gina tingle from the alpha male because, from an evolutionary perspective, those are the genes that contribute to survival. Trouble is, those same sociopathic thugs are not at all any use as protector and provider, so she takes the results of her selective breeding, along with her black eye, and finds a beta schlub provider to help raise them. … [P]erhaps others here have similar stories where female aquaintances chose assholes in their hormoned youth, only to settle for a nice guy with 3-4 thug bastards in tow. Women such as the one you’ve talked about here are those who have not overcome their animal instincts, every bit as much as the men who put them in ICU. The authority that a man used to have over his daughters as well as his sons used to act as somewhat of a check on this social dynamic, but we all know what happened to that…

I think it’s safe to say that if you ever run across a dude who refers to “‘ginas” instead of “vaginas” you should run as far away as your legs will take you.

Someone called Stoltz concludes

This is what happens when a society tells women they are equal – no,no – superior – to men. Movies and TV shows that show a female character acting like a hellish b*tch, goings around kicking everyone’s rearends. … Feminist and a feminist-backed government who tell women they have no responsibilities, and all the rights, so they believe they can do whatever they please to whoever (of course, the ‘whoever’ are men).

Meanwhile, another commenter suggests that the only solution is “to repeal the civil rights laws that prevent people from keeping ‘those’ people out.” Yet another declares that “Ray Rice triggers my gaydar pretty hard” and suggests that Janay “looks like a tranny.”

Price himself shows up with some comments even worse than his post, arguing that abused women stick with their abusers

because it feels good. Having a dominant man is a pleasurable feeling for a lot of women. It’s like a shot of dope for a heroin addict, who knows that he’s taking a big risk each time he injects the drug into his arm, but can’t stop himself from doing so anyway.

Just a couple days ago there was a power outage where I live due to some construction/maintenance in the area. I had to go to a nearby hotspot to do some work online and so did a few neighbors. One of my neighbors was an ordinary, middle-aged woman. She left her phone on speaker for some reason, and she got a call from her man that I heard as clear as day. He called, and then when she didn’t pick up immediately I could hear him yelling at her in a threatening manner for not answering promptly. Then, the guy demanded she get power of attorney over her mother so he could drain the old lady’s bank account, and when she raised reasonable objections to it he was insistent and angry. I was just shaking my head, but this mild-mannered, very plain 40-something white lady looked positively radiant upon receiving this kind of violent attention from her thuggish, scumbag boyfriend.

The thing is people like this you can’t reason with them so David writes and mocks Misogny and other terrible things. He also tries to talk about this as much as he can so we can avoid them and bring them to justice.

I have no idea on where you are getting these ‘facts’ can you give us citations?

I do agree with whats-his-name that the women in these relationships bear some responsibility in that they go back to their abuser, and often marry them AFTER they’ve been abused by them. I did it myself.

…

The only way that women will stop entering abusive relationships is to do DEEP soul searching. It’s taken me an entire life time (I’m in my 60s now) to figure it out. But, thank God, I did. I will never let another man (or anybody) abuse me again.

Conservative Girl, I hear where you’re coming from. I struggled with the same kind of self-blame when I got sober, because I didn’t understand how I could be a “real” addict if I was eventually able to get clean. If addiction is a lack of control, and I was able to eventually gain control, how could I say I was an addict?

But here’s the thing I eventually got through my head: the fact that a person eventually gets free of something terrible does not mean they let the terrible thing happen in the first place. My MIL didn’t choose to get cancer. I didn’t choose to be addicted. And neither you nor I nor any other survivor chose to be abused. You need to stop blaming the victims – including yourself – for what other people chose/choose to do to them.

And thanks Arithia and others for the anthropological/genetic perspective on this manosphere nonsense.

I put anon2’s comments back up because they’re so ridiculous and wrong.They don’t bother me, but if they bother you all I’m happy to take them down. I’ve put him on moderation in case he decides to get nastier, as trolls are wont to do.

There are all sorts of reasons peoople stay with abusive people or in bad relationships. I know one guy who stayed in a relationship with a manipulative and emotionally abusive woman partly because she threatened to kill herself if he left, and partly b/c he was clinically depressed and afraid of being alone, and basically felt that a bad relationship was better than no relationship. (He was ultimately able to extract himself.) People’s motivations are complicated.

@Kirbywarp……I wasn’t suggesting that women should be able to read minds. I was saying that as abused women we need to be asking OURSELVES why we would accept that from somebody.

I had to examine myself after the second abusive marriage. Why would I accept that? Why did I rationalize his abuse? Why did I call it everything EXCEPT abuse? And more importantly, why did I feel I wasn’t deserving of better? Every battered and abused woman needs to answer those questions.

And I’m not in anyway excusing any man for abusing women. I don’t believe women cause it or deserve it. But, if you’re willing to accept it from someone, the obvious question is “why?”

I’m sorry you had to go through that. My father was similar to your ex and because of his stalking, harassment, games, and the just plain terrifying stuff he did, it took over 6 years for
my parents divorce to become final. Thanks to the misogynistic judge who let him get away with everything.

Anon2:

The fact is, I have no idea what the personal and financial lives of those that are online consist of and neither do you. I will admit, though, I’m not a gullible person like you are and don’t believe everything I’m told. I do know one thing. If the so-called PUA’s pseudo-sexcapades were really true and worked, they wouldn’t have time to tell you boys stories, would they? And on the off chance a few of them did, the halls of the manosphere would be dark and deserted, because you’d all be so busy with so many women, sex and living it up that none of you would spend most of your free time being keyboard jockeys and trolling. So I’m afraid that I’m gonna have to go with you and your peers are just full of shit.

I get what you’re saying, but I still think that you have to keep in mind that some people stay because they don’t have the resources to leave or they’re scared that their partner will kill them if they leave or take some other drastic action to hurt their partner for leaving. David’s example of a man who stayed with an abusive woman because she threatened to kill herself is a good one. Sometimes, the thing that makes someone tolerate abuse is fear. Also, I think that it’s worth pointing out that a lot of the times, the abuse victim comes to believe that they deserve the abuse because the abuser makes them believe that that they do. It’s yet another component of abusive behavior.

Zoe Quinn is getting attacked by Gamegaters and a Breitbart journalist. Reason: Because apparently they have found a picture of thr site of Depression Quest where it says a portion of the money will go to iFred. So they contacted iFred and iFred said they aren’t connected to Zoe Quinn.

So they are attacking her because of this and because they can’t find the iFred mention in the site now, saying that she is hiding evidence etc etc.

I actually went into the trouble of checking Web archive and it seems that she has really changed her site… Back in August that is. She changed charities, went from iFred to National Suicide Prevention Hotline.

This discussion reminds me of a Pervocracy post from several years back listing many reasons why people stay in abusive relationships: Why Does She Stay With That Jerk?. It was a big help to me as I was extracting myself from my emotionally abusive relationship. (In my case, #s 3, 11, 12, 18, and 19.)

I don’t know what else to say, but wanted to pass along the link. Wishing all non-trolls the best.

And also, all abusive, violent men are “musclebound athletes, beefy bikers, and ghetto thugs.”

I love how they paint abusers as big, beefy guys and also women. Women are evil, violent abusive creatures, but only the big, beefy guys are.

Also, mine was damn near twiggy and pure charismatic bullshit. He had a PoliSci degree, so he was really good at charismatic bullshit. People liked him, even though he genuinely hated everyone except himself. And supposedly me, but that one was quite obviously debatable.

Another reason people stay in abusive situations is that, as fucked up as their situation is, it’s what feels normal to them because they were raised in an abusive home.

Another reason I didn’t recognize what was happening to me as abuse. My mother was a mentally, verbally, emotionally abusive addict. My father supported her and appeased her as best he could, and kept his head down or tried to make himself invisible. I apparently learned his coping mechanisms. In my former relationship, I was so worried about being my mother that I cast myself in Dad’s role instead.

(Dad? Also raised in an abusive home. It’s a difficult chain to break.)

Women can be abusive partners too, of course. I *think* (and this is just my guess, not a researched position) that abusive women are less likely to take the abuse physical. They keep the attacks psychological, which is harder to pin down and can be just as devastating.

Am I going to go along with the MRA line that WOMEN ARE EBIL? of course not. They accuse me of thinking MEN ARE EBIL, and I don’t.
Why do they cling to this silly-ass black and white thinking?

This topic comes uncomfortable close to home but here goes. I was at work and the overwhelming response was “Well of course no one should be hit but why did she stay if not for the money?”

Victims of domestic violence stay for many reasons and I have yet to find someone who is willing to be beat up because they might, in the future, be able to get money. For everyone who thinks that she stayed for the payday why is it so hard to believe that she stayed because he threatened to use his money to destroy her? As the recent doxxing have proved if you have the money to find out information about a person you are in the position to destroy them.

TW violence

No one in a violent situation is able to leave until they are ready. I’ve been in a situation where I heard different reasons why it was my fault: From supposed friends-He’s so hot, why aren’t you happy with him? From family- You slept with him you deserve how he treats you, from the police-Are you on your period and maybe just exaggerating what happened. I reached a point where I didn’t care if I saw another sunrise I wanted it to end. I’m one of the lucky ones, I had a family member buck the trend and come to help me. I had real friends who never left my side no matter how many times I told them he wasn’t that bad & to go away. I had a support system I didn’t even know about that loved me & wanted me to live to see another sunrise.A long laundry list of injuries that damn near killed me I’m still here.

So for anyone who justifies what he did since she obviously signed up for it think about this. Abusers are really good at hiding their true nature until you are under their control. If someone told you “you will act this way or I will destroy your (life, reputation, financial security, etc)” and your response was that you would fight back you’re deluding yourself and incredibly lucky that you have never been in the situation to have to make that decision.

This confirms what I’ve been saying. We’ve heard about the rivalry for leadership in the MRA world, and how Price has been portraying himself as the more intelligent, calm and reasonable pup in that litter. But it doesn’t take long for that mask to slip, does it? And he doesn’t need to say as much if his posse says it for him – look at the comments he nurtures on his blog.

And from the re-read there are a bunch of commas missing so feel free to grab some from here ,,,,,,,,,,

To everyone else that has been in the same situation I’m sorry you went through that & I hope that you find a way to heal and have a fulfilling life. You are better then the situation you are in, you are worth it!

I’m going to leave a big barrel of hugs over here for anyone who would like one. Like the MRSs this barrel is bottomless but the deeper it goes the better the hugs get.

That played a role in why I stayed, as well. My mother’s mother is emotionally abusive, and her father was physically abusive. It was just seen by them as “good parenting”. My grandmother’s father was also abusive, though my great-grandmother was an amazingly kind lady. My mother thought the proper way to raise a family was to keep the children in check through fear and pain, so my stepfather whaling on us was nothing abnormal to her. She was emotionally abusive herself and still has some bad tendencies. He was raised by quickly horribly abusive stepfather. He told us stories of being whipped with electrical cords. Compared to what happened to him, what he did to us seemed like nothing until he pounded my face bloody in a rage fit. Then it got real enough for my mother to realize shit was not right.

Physical violence becomes easier to rationalize if you come from an environment steeped in it. Sometime after my beating from my stepfather, my grandmother complained about not being able to beat your children anymore. That was around the time I stopped associating with that whole drippingly toxic family. The sad part is that it may cost me my relationship with my siblings, but the happy part is that my mother is trying to stay part of my life without being negative. She still guilts me from time to time about not visiting them, but I have zero desire to even know those people anymore. To them, I was the whistle blower who ruined my family. They claim to still “love me”, but they like reminding me what an awful human being I am so ah…no fucking thank you.

I *think* (and this is just my guess, not a researched position) that abusive women are less likely to take the abuse physical.

Nope. Lesbian and heterosexual relationships have the same rate of violence. But it makes sense. Lesbians abuse for the same reasons men do; to keep control, so why would violence be less common with abusive lesbians?

First, I want to say thank you to everyone who shared their stories, and hugs to all those who want them. And just…I’m really sorry all that shit happened. Glad you’re out, though.

As for me, I’d convinced myself it wasn’t emotional abuse (but never told family or friends about it because I thought they might get “wrong” impression). Because saying I was weird wasn’t abuse, I was weird! Because calling me “socially r*tarded” to some of his friends, in front of me, was just his way of explaining my weirdness. Because the two times he said he might hit, he didn’t mean it, it was just a figure of speech because he was frustrated.

Convinced myself it wasn’t physical abuse the time he grabbed my side and squeezed till I cried because, you know, I was being annoying, I had a tendency to do do that, and anyway he apologized and comforted me and told me he understood why that scared me and that made him even more sorry, yada yada.

Convinced myself it wasn’t sexual abuse when he’d hold my thighs down and continue going down on my through my refractory period even though I’d tried to stop him. Because I hadn’t said no, and hadn’t said stop, and really he just wanted to give me a better orgasm, it was for my benefit! And anyway, I was writing and reading about the awfulness of abuse, especially sexual in nature, so how could it be present in my relationship?

I had pretty low self-esteem back then, and there was always the fear that he’d leave 1) because he’d done it and 2) because I had this belief I wasn’t good enough to stay with. I thought that I needed him somehow. After a ten month mourning period the last and final time he left me, I finally realized I didn’t and never had. Of course, finding out all my loved ones had never liked him helped a lot.

As a matter of statistics abuse begins most often upon two occasions. Marriage and pregnancy. It is not surprising then that most women leave more than once before they finally leave for good. Those are the ties that bind most tightly.
Why Does HE DO That is a book that every person who know an abused person or is an abused person should read.

I couldn’t even read the entire piece or all the comments so forgive me for rehasing. I worked on a domestic violence hotline. Volunteers took the calls and referred to social workers. Yes there were crackpots (never got one but heard about some regulars) I did have women I spoke with that were referred to shelter. The whole “why didn’t she just leave” discounts/ignores so many monetary, psychological, societal, etc factors. I had a family member who was involved in an abusive relationship (now free) who didn’t say anything for a number of complex reasons. It ain’t that easy and I’m sure the same goes for men who are subjects of domestic violence.

@Alais & Emilygoddess (I think I spelled that right) I was an addict too, Emily….so I understand addiction as well as being in an abusive cycle. I’m not blaming myself or anyone who is abused or struggling with addiction.

I’m saying that in order for the cycle of violence to stop, one needs to ask….”Why would I accept this?” I’m a believer in taking personal responsibility for one’s life. That is not the same as victim blaming. It is simply self examination and asking a very important question.

Once I was able to ask that question, and PAINFULLY answer it for myself (that was a rough realization) then I was able to extract myself from those types of relationships.

And Alais, I grew up in an abusive home. The first 30 years of my adult life was witness to my father brutalizing my mother and my sisters and me. I know what the cycle of abuse looks like and I know how deep it goes into your heart and soul. I have a sister who committed suicide as a result of the abuse. And another who has been in abusive marriages since she was 18. She is now 55 years old. She is mentally broken.

So believe me when I say I get it. I GET it. And I’m not blaming myself or anyone else. I’m making observations and saying that women who are abused need to ask themselves (if they stay in it) WHY they do not feel they deserve better.

If those questions aren’t asked and answered, it is very likely they won’t ever get out of it. My 55 year old sister is a perfect example.

I’m still in that process of figuring out “Why am I so afraid to be without this abusive person?”

I didn’t deserve the abuse. He’s entirely responsible for it. I’m responsible for my happiness and, unfortunately, I chose to be with someone who chose to abuse me and showed no signs of curbing the behaviour. It was only after he quit me that I realised, gosh, I was letting him treat me in a manner that was very harmful to me and was never able to wrap my head around leaving him. Why the hell is that? Why was I more OK with being abused than leaving him?

I still don’t entirely know the answer. I know none of his treatment of me was my fault nor did I deserve any of it. I also know I want to be happy and I am responsible for and in control of my own happiness. That’s pretty awesome.

@ conservative girl…Hmm…something DBT has you do is called “opposite action.”
In that, you treat yourself well even though you really hate yourself and do not feel you deserve good treatment.
…So while thinking “I deserve better!” is one angle of approach…Maybe getting out can come before you believe you deserve better. It’s possible it has to in some cases.

I think the will to survive gets some people out, it got me out…not that my ex was violent. In fact I’d say her verbal abuse was mild.
But it twinked with my depression and PTSD such that it made me a LOT more inclined to self-destruct.

I shouldn’t have to be ashamed of what happened to me, nor should any other survivor. We shouldn’t be ashamed for staying when our survival often depended on it.

Holy cow, NO, you should not be ashamed! And nobody should try to shame you for it!

Here’s a perspective, for whoever wants it and for whatever it’s worth. There is a concept in economics that says that people always do what is in their own best interests, to the best of their knowledge. In other words, you always do the best thing, for you, at the time when you do it.

I want to repeat that: If you stayed in a bad and abusive relationship for any number of days or months or years, you did the best thing, for you, at the time.

That may seem counterintuitive, and you may regret staying as long as you did, for any number of reasons. You may think you should have left sooner. That’s a legit feeling, but the only way your actions could have changed would be for your circumstances to have changed. You could have had more/different information and reached a different decision, for instance. But, factually, at the time, your circumstances were what they were, and your information was what it was, and based on the situation at hand you made a rational decision, and that decision was the correct decision based on the information you possessed.

So, why did Janay Rice marry that dude after what he did to her? I don’t know, but I know this: the decision she made was the correct one, the best and most rational option available to her. If it doesn’t seem that way to me, that’s because I don’t have the same set of information that she does.

I thought it was fairly well known – and it is absolutely backed up statistically – that the most dangerous period for someone in an abusive relationship is just after they leave. At that point, the most murders are committed. Of course the best thing is to get out, but when and how needs to be balanced for safety reasons.

I get reminded of the question: ‘Why don’t women just negotiate like men at the pay table?’

The answer is, of course, that women who do this get paid less than women who don’t. Women are already using the best negotiation method they can – it just never leaves them at parity.

The abused are already trying to function as best they can, but parity is really goddamn hard to achieve because of all manner of resource issues, including the resource of ‘safety’.

Sorry if it seemed like we all jumped on you a bit. Your comments came across as sort of victim-blamey at first, especially since it seemed as though you were sort of agreeing with Price’s contention that women are hardwired to go for abusive men , and it seemed like you weren’t acknowledging people who stay because they’re afraid. Your comments since then have made it clear that you’re arguing something different.

Now I get what you’re saying now, which is that one of the first steps to getting out of an abusive relationship is trying to figure out why you tolerate it and then convincing yourself that you deserve better and that if you’re not simply saying because you’re afraid it but because your upbringing has led you to see abuse as normal or because you felt like you didn’t deserve better. And if you understand what led you to stay in one abusive relationship, then you’re less likely to go back and less likely to get into another relationship. Sorry again.

Arithia- Bless you for bringing up the cooperative, social and less aggressive aspect of mate selection during our evolutionary history. Having a mate like that was indeed extremely advantageous during our evolutionary history. Hell, it’s still awesome today. As an Anthro major, you make me proud. These fucks would have NO idea what kind of class they were in if they actually bothered to take Anthropology. I’d give them an F-.

I stayed with an abusive partner, and didn’t talk about it to anyone until years after the fact, because I was ashamed. How could a smart feminist end up in such a situation? I didn’t want anyone to know, and then I felt incredibly guilty for not wanting anyone to know, because I knew that it was saying that there are some sort of infallible safeguards against ending up in an abusive situation. Like, if you are x and y, it won’t happen to you, and that’s just one more of those shitty ways to victim-blame. So I hated myself for that, on top of it all.

The sad thing is, I still feel a tremendous amount of shame, and guilt over being ashamed, and they’re things I’m going to have to work through for a long time.

The good things are, my current life and the love and support in it, including a wonderful partner, with whom I feel like I am living in a tropical paradise instead of a nuclear wasteland.

Here’s a perspective, for whoever wants it and for whatever it’s worth. There is a concept in economics that says that people always do what is in their own best interests, to the best of their knowledge. In other words, you always do the best thing, for you, at the time when you do it.

I feel inclined to point out that that the idea rather hinges on the middle part of that sentence structure – you do what you think is best for yourself to the best of your knowledge at that time. Informational asymmetries leads to different outcomes behavior.

I think it’s pretty important, because it means most do what do what they do to stay alive and, given the choice of options, they pick the one most likely to result in their own well being (such as they perceive well being), but also maybe the well being of others.

Informational assymetries being what they are, the entire idea is that the person making the judgement doesn’t have the magic ability to know what’s going on with the actual relationship either, so people who make a grand diagnostic and go “Hah, so why are you staying with that someone who insults you? Just leave, dammit, it’s the easiest thing!” might not have grokked all those late night conversations where one party threatens to actually kill themselves, or something else, and is sort of missing the fact that people have their own reasons for staying as well. And I know a lot of great, fantastic, amazing, courageous, strong people who, if given the choice of “I will be insulted every single day of my life but someone else stays alive” and “I go have care free ice cream, but that means someone killed themselves” are exactly the kind of people who will obviously pick the former. And that’s just one example of the many tendriled beast of abusive.

It’s sad for a lot of reasons, because the conversation people could be having about responsibilties and people and relationships and signs and help and trauma and improvement of all of our lives is hijacked by a jackass who thinks that they’ve gotten that one perfect way to fix everything, and if you don’t follow, it’s because you’re a deviant subhuman consenting to your own pain.

You’re absolutely right. No one is immune to the possibility of abuse. I’m so sorry that the idea that victims might not have been victims if they’d just been stronger/smarter/better overall is still making you feel ashamed and guilty years later, and I hope that you can eventually work through it. All the hugs in the world.

I think what also needs too be taken into account that we live in a society where women are taught to believe, through countless movies, books and magazines that romantic love and getting and keeping a man is the end all and be all to existence. (For men, the end all and be all seems to be sex.) And that if you are a woman you are a loser if you don’t experience “true love”. We’re taught, very early in life, to be alone is anathem and that if you are alone, you’re supposed to be fat and miserable. Every form of media mocks and degrades such women.

There’s a huge number of reasons why a woman might choose to stay in an abusive relationship or appear from the outside to be “addicted” to their abuser and massive societal pressure to not be alone should be taken into account as one of the reasons too.

My sister was in an abusive relationship and all we could do was encourage her to make the jump to leave and convince her we would catch her when she did but it was very frustrating to watch her go back to him or let him back in her life again and again. We got very angry with her. (It’s difficult to keep your cool in such a situation.) Finally, we sort of wore ourselves down and we just waited. We told ourselves to stop being angry, that’s not working, she’ll leave when she’s ready. All we could do is keep encouraging her to do it and that the support would be there. From our standpoint it looked liked she simply could not stay away from this manchild.

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