A person with knowledge of the decision says the Philadelphia Flyers have signed Nashville star defenceman Shea Weber to a 14-year offer sheet worth more than $100 million.

The Sports Network in Canada first reported the offer.

The person spoke to The Associated Press on Thursday on condition of anonymity because the Flyers hadn’t announced the offer.

Flyers general manager Paul Holmgren confirmed early Thursday that the Flyers did sign Weber to an offer sheet. He gave no further details. The Predators issued a statement late Thursday morning confirming they had received the Flyers’ offer sheet, which gives the team seven days to make a decision on matching the deal or letting the defenceman go.

“We have stated previously that, should a team enter into an offer sheet with Shea, our intention would be to match and retain Shea,” Predators general manager David Poile said. “Our ownership has provided us with the necessary resources to build a Stanley Cup-winning team. Due to the complexity of the offer sheet, we will take the appropriate time to review and evaluate it, and all of its ramifications, in order to make the best decision for the Predators in both the short and long-term.”

Also, looks like the Preds are asking for B, Schenn, Couturier and more for Weber.

again, i will reiterate, this type of move by Holmgren is something Burke would never do. Its a great example of what Burke is missing and thus causing the Leafs as a team to miss out.

I mentioned that all in a previous post but one thing i didnt mention was the impact a player like Weber has on a team.

a) other players notice. whoa, big move by the Flyers, they want to win. they are seemingly a team that will do what it takes.

b) big name players draw other big names. its like the Miami Heat effect. when the big 3 signed down there, many have copied. its starting to show in the NHL with suter/parise. I think other players want to play with other great players like Weber.

c) it adds so much influence to the current players on teh roster. a big acquisition is just a huge thing in the room. it gets players to believe in their bosses and really adds a spark to the room, whether or not the team needs it.

its hypothetical but what if this was Toronto? hmm, financially it may be messy but well you think Rick Nash wouldnt’ notice? or Luongo if he had reservations of going anywehre else but Florida?

this is where i feel Burke misreads the market and what is going on. He isnt keeping up with other teams. While Philly is a monster franchise, Toronto still is the richest by far. It could support 10 teams in the NHL at high cap payrolls.

there is no way it could not be able to afford such a deal. but, knowing Burke, it would never get taht far. it would have never gone to his bosses to get approved. he’d kill it on the spot with his belief these deals are supposedly illegal, when they are clearly acceptable under the terms of the current CBA.

the trickle down effect is huge. And while the likes or Ryan, Stastny, Bernier, Bouwmeester, Luongo, are nice players, Weber is off the charts good. His impact would be far greater than any of them.

it would be like when Pronger went to Edm. A HUGE difference. and then when he left, we saw the results. those kinds of players just dont fall out of trees.

Unless you pull a Pittsburgh and draft 1st overall every year for half a decade. you’re bound to end up with one player at that level.

All it took was a bit of forward thinking. outside the box thinking and just going against the status quo. I don’t think Burke is capable of that no longer.

I am not high and mighty or feel i know everything. Its just my own opinion. i feel top players have a strong link to other top players. its a huge draw because the more top guys, the possibility is greater to have a stronger team as a whole. I feel if Toronto did that once, it could lead to a chain of events that could expedite the Leafs rise back to being a contender as they were shockingly 10 years ago roughly.

All it takes is one move. IMO Burke doesn’t have it in him. he missed the boat, i mentioned it, offering my own beliefs on teh matter as i like to do that sometimes with stuff that even may not involve Toronto. I don’t expect people to agree, but i expect many would understand this logic.

Watch for the goon squad…They lurk on this site like no tommorow and are ready to pounce when you don’t say something positive.

But in essence, I would have to agree with you. Although Weber wouldm’t have been the greatest fit…Why the hell not have thrown 8 million atleast at Stamkos?

Besides the Kessel trade, Burke has not assumed any real risk. He has made good deals for Toronto, but they’ve been Toronto selling or acquiring decent assets.

When it comes to free agency, he plays it REALLLLL safe. Connolly, Beauchemin, etc. But maybe that’s why all his deals have blown up horribly in his face.

Like I said before….Toronto has a deep prospect pool and the talent is their already on the current/young roster. But until he assumes some risk and tries to bring in another top-end center…This team is flatling forever.

I sometimes believe it would just be best if Toronto purposely loses a majority of their games next year because they would have a shot to draft Mackinnon/Monahan/Barkov if he does not want to go that route…But knowing Burke, defencemen.

why contribute? we had this exact argument on-going on the other thread. Maybe on the next thread posted I’ll copy paste his post and we can start all over. And whoever doesn’t contribute I will bitch at.

What a solid trade today. Happ and Lyon add needed depth. And while risky, as happ isn’t a front end rotation guy, it sends a positive message to the team and specifically Joey bats that they’re trying.

He’s on the DL, they coulda packed it in, but AA knew getting immediate help was big for the team. Good on him.

So I posted some long winded post that went from annoyance and disagreeing with Nords/LN91 to sort of agreeing. This is in conjunction with that post, but in its absence I thought I’d post a little addendum to it.

Say Burke loses his distaste for offer sheets (it’s a hypothetical, don’t analyse how he would) or he steps down and Nonis takes over with no such distaste.

Do you go ahead and offer sheet Evander Kane or Jamie Benn? Both play styles that would help with the need for grit, and both are talented offensive players.

And I’d love to offer sheet both but you can only use the picks once. So if you do an offer sheet that amounts to a two firsts and a 2nd (or whatever it is) you can only use that once. If that makes sense

I’d do Benn first. Would you be willing to do a 6.5 million dollar deal for him or Kane though? That’s likely what it would take to get them.

Didn’t know Oshie signed. And you can only use the picks once. I believe you can offer sheet as much as you want. Like when Edmonton did it, I’m pretty sure they signed Vanek and Penner simultaneously, when Anaheim declined on Penner the Vanek offer was voided because the Oiler picks went to Anaheim.

I would do 6.5 for Evander Kane in a heartbeat whatever term he wants and most definitely ahead of Benn. Benn would be fantastic as well but I think Kanes potential is too much to pass up and the kid can scrap.

I would love love love to see Burke force a trade with the threat of an offer sheet. That would be ideal. Hell give up half the team so it and don’t acquire a goalie so it forces the team to draft top 5 one more time. One more top 5 pick and still have Kessel, Kane, Phaneuf and Gardiner under contract. Now that would be a dream come true.

I don’t think an offer sheet would work well for players in that range.

The Shea Weber sheet works (or at least has a reasonable chance) because he is arguably the best player at his position. You can offer him a massive deal that financially his team would have to stretch to match, but at the same time is worth it for the Flyers to get a player of that pedigree.

With Benn or Kane what can a team offer that is so much their respective teams can’t match, but at the same time is a worth while deal for the new team. It’s not like Dallas wouldn’t match a deal worth 5.5 or 6 million a year, but a deal worth more than that with the given compensation would be a terrible move for the team signing him.

I think with playes like that it makes more sense to use the threat of teh offer sheet to force the team to think about making a trade that makes sense.

What I would really like to see Burke Leverage is the looming CBA, and make deals with/for players with one year left.

For example, a guy like Getzlaf. I think if you can trade for a good player with one year left, you press a little harder so you can get a better chance to negotiate under the old cba. Then use the looming changes to get a deal in place. For instance, with Getzlaf, if he wants longer than 5 years, and a somewhat front loaded deal, he has to sign sooner rather than later. So if you can trade for him, quickly get him signed. It doesn’t have to be super long term, because he can’t get a long term deal anywhere else. Something like 8 years 60 million with 25 million paid out over the next 12 months would be doable for Toronto, and is likely not going to be possible under the new CBA, so it’s a good opportuntiy to haev the upper hand in the negotiations. In other words, gamble a little, overvalue players on the last year of their deal, simply because there is a good chance to get a contract in place before the new CBA.

Obviously Getzlaf would be ideal, but it doesn’t have to be him. It could work with some pending RFA’s as well.

I think that is probably the cleverest thing in Holmgren’s pursuit of Weber. Weber is willing to sign an offer sheet because he knows that type of deal isn’t coming next year on the open market as we can proabably be pretty sure they won’t be allowed under the new CBA.

(d) (i) A Club may have more than one Offer Sheet signed by a Restricted
Free Agent outstanding at any one time and from time to time, provided that it has the
available draft picks to satisfy its obligations pursuant to Section 10.4 with respect to all
Offer Sheets outstanding at the relevant time.

So a team may only have a valid offer sheet assuming they have the picks to compensate the current players team. So Toronto could not have two offer sheets at this moment in time out on two different players.

This could change in the new CBA but for now it is illegal to do so.

Also did a bit of looking and this is how the Edmonton situation worked out…

Thomas Vanek signed the offer sheet on July, 6th so 7 days from then would of been July 13th. Dustin Penner was signed to an offer sheet July 26th so it was not invalid as the picks were not in use.

And I am only mad about BB because he seems to have more power, more autonomy, more freedom to do whatever it takes without meddling owners other than to sign cheques but does nothing.

Ballard interfered with everything.

Fletcher was on a roll, but then Stavro got in the way with getting Clark back and saying no to Gretzky.

Things were messy in the Dryden era as there was no steady gm and we know JFJ was powerless.

Maybe Burke is totally full of bull and has no power at all. Maybe he is the MLSE beeatch. Maybe he is suppose to pretend and talk, and just look busy. I dunno.

Either way he looks like a douche blowing hot air, putting in these foolish self imposed restrictions and boxing in the franchise to only hope his pals like bob Murray give him freebies like lupul and gardiner and hope more they end up as stars.

Maybe it is tanenbaum. Being a pal to the NHL not giving into fat contracts. Or maybe it really is Burke and his linkage to the league as former VP, and like a good solider is fighting the leagues fight using the centre of the hockey universe as the platform.

I dunno. Trying to make sense of it cause the way things have been run here has been a joke. It’s so backwards and so not about winning at all costs it’s not funny.

would love to get Kane or Benn but do we really need them? Before discussing the cost and whatnot I’m going to assume we picked up a goalie that is considered an upgrade to Scrivins (Bernier, Luongo, or Thomas (assuming he plays)).

First of all even with the potential of the Leafs getting another top 5 pick there is no way I see either team accept compensation of a 1st, 2nd & 3rd (considering they both teams still need to take on cap space)

With that in mind Burke would have to offer either player a deal worth $6.73M or greater and give up our 2013 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and our 2014 1st. To be honest I cannot see him making another Kessel type move even if it is totally worth it.

I’d bet the Leafs were offering a lot lower and Kulemin wanted more. But this seems like a fair mid ground. He gets less money than he wants, Leafs take less term. Kulemin has the oppurtunity to prove if he’s the 30 goal guy or 7 goal guy.

It was a great movie. Nolan does a great job of bringing it full circle. For this I would recommend watching Batman Begins, because there is a lot more reference to that then there is to the Dark Knight. Also the references to the comics don’t hurt. I think it was the perfect ending to Nolan’s trilogy.

Alexei Yashin is planning an NHL comeback. He’s 39 now, but even in his mid-late thirties he was a just under a point per game player still, and on a terrible Islanders team. He made Jason Blake a 49 goal man. I’d love to see Burkie sign Yashin on a 1-year deal.

Say philly signs weber.. they have 7.9 mill in cap space so im thinking the deal will average out too around 7.5 mill per season leaving philly with unreal defence but only .4mill in cap space with vorachek as an RFA and some wholes in the forwards. they need depth. a guy i see becoming available in their defence is meszaros (only one without some sort of NMC or NTC) and danny briere. Briere is overpayed but has put up some 30 goal seasons and has always upped his game in the post season. Leafs have upwards of 9 mill to spend. Philly will probably want a puck moving cheap dman back also.

i just see philly going for it all for weber and then once they have weber be like okay do we keep our team like this and hope our team stays healthy or were f**ked and lose vorachek or do we move a defenceman and a decent player (who is overpayed) too save cap, improve depth greatly, another solid prospect to improve the future as well as depth to help the present. I just see them pushing themselves into a corner for them having to make some sacrafices but their team will still undoubtedly become better after.

I get the feeling if for some dumb reason Nashville doesn’t match the deal then Philadelphia will not move a guy like Briere for depth. It would be something like Voracek + D-man (since they would have 7 guys making 3.5M or more including Pronger) for an upgrade to their top 6 that costs less than the D-man they give up.

Something like:

Voracek, Meszaros (4M)

for:

Okposo (2.8M)

Maybe PHI would want a better player than Okposo or would prefer to trade with the other conference (at least another division) but you get the idea. There are a lot of teams like the Islanders that need D-men and need to take on cap space. win-win.

It feels like the plan is to complete a trade for Weber. The offer sheet just limits trading partners to only Philly and gives them leverage in deal. As lopsided as it sounds I just don’t see Couturier or Schenn moving. Without the offer sheet no chance but it changed everything.

Holmgren could care less about the 4 1sts. However to make the package a little more appealing to Poile and to save the cap situation you have to think Voracek replaces one first right off the get go. Mez would probably be a throw in for cap space. Maybe Voracek, Mez and 3 1sts?

A little more enticing 2 pieces that help now to keep Nashville in the playoff picture and long term pieces as well. The three firsts well because that’s in line with the RFA compensation. Maybe throw in a good prospect. In a pre offer sheet trade not enough no doubt but I just can’t see Weber in Nashville. The guy wants out and I don’t care what anyone says that money will have the owner hesitant.

Are you sure they can trade him to Philly. On TSN Dreger said if they match they can’t move him for a year so they have to keep an unhappy player. Does anyone have a source about trading with the team that offered the offer sheet?

that 7.9 in cap space is if you count Pronger. So assuming he does’t play they would have just over 5mil in cap space after weber. They already have 8 defence(one would get dropped clearing up at least 700k) and 12 forwards under contract. All they have to do is resign Voracek. If Pronger comes back i think it’s in the playoffs. So they can manage. I’ve heard Nashville is planning on offer sheeting Voracek. They better not give away their first, because with Weber and Suter gone. They will have a hard time next season.

Also assuming they do get Weber it seems 100% to me it will be Weber-Schenn on the top pairing. Intimidating. Timmonen is slowing down and seems a better fit with Coburn.

Weber-Schenn
Coburn-Timmonen

Very impressive top 6. This is why I could t understand or agree with the criticisms with Holmgren last season with the difference in age between the D and forwards. Why go young up front with an aging D how could you not pick Hamilton. Holmgren is so proactive it was an absolute non issue.

The D couldn’t handle the loss of Pronger and become a weakness to the exceptional forward depth? No worries he will just acquire Weber and Schenn in the off-season. Incredible.

Agreed he’s done an acceptional job but I just don’t get why Philly would offer sheet weber to have Nashville say “ok we don’t want to match can we negotiate a trade so we don’t get screwed too bad?” I don’t see why holmgren would make this trade? I don’t see Nashville matching because weber wouldn’t have signed that long and during their negotiations they pretty much got the hint that he’s not too thrilled on staying. Its pretty much asking for a trade without openly saying it and risk getting a bad rep. Weber will be a flyer soon enough IMO

You can’t lose a player like Weber for only four first rounders. Even if he doesn’t want to play. You match, wait a year, then trade him for more.

That’s why Holmgren would make a trade now. This offer sheet is a firm deadline. He’s forcing Nashville to make a decision on a trade for sure. So the Preds agree to not match the deal and they get a second deal as a result. It’s not Holmgren being a nice guy, it’s him making sure he’s the only one making this deal, instead of waiting for a year and having to compete with everyone.

The Predators will not lose Weber for four first round picks, I will almost guarantee that.

Mezsaros is another candidate to play up with Weber. Meszaros is typically good for around 30-35 points and plays a solid two-way game.

I don’t know about Schenn, being up there, given his lack of speed and he’s not a tremendous passer, and has no shot. It wouldn’t make sense to play him top pair. Timonen is a much better fit because he’s just way better.

Also, Timonen is not slowing down at all, he played outstanding last year for the Flyers and had his most productive season since ’09 with 43 points.

Good points. I think Timmonen was more productive because of Prongers injury and added responsibility. The way I look at it is Timmonen-Coburn looks much more well rounded then Coburn-Schenn.

I’m only talking about 5 on 5 play here special teams is a whole other story so the lack of shot doesn’t concern me. I think Schenn and Weber will have great chemistry and could be long term partners with Schenn taking a big step forward next season.

Schenn stay at home game will let Weber play more aggressive joining the rush more often. His outlet passes are a little underrated as well so I’m not worried as much about Schenn ability to move the puck out.

Meszaros to me is more likely to push Schenn out of that spot. However his solid all around game makes him more likely to match up with any other defenseman and form a good pair. Schenn less so, hes more a great complimentary piece. I’d rather Meszaros-Grossman out there than Grossman-Schenn.

Anyways it’s all opinion really well have to wait until training camp to see who has chemistry with who. I just see nice chemistry between the former Kelowna roommates.

You could be right. I could see Schenn and Weber possibly working out as a long term pairing. I don’t know if they’ll start him out up there, I think they’d go with Timonen as long as he’s got some life left in him, but maybe down the line it would be a great match.

It’s a smart move..and Zigomanis doesn’t lose his job over this. There are a collection of guys with the Marlies that will either be traded or stick with the Leafs this season, (leaves lots of holes on the Marlies roster). In the end….if we sneak in the post season…Aucoin as a call-up could be this eras Lonny Bohonos. That’d make grapes happy.

Oh certainly. It’s fantastic for them. They gave up nearly nothing of significance. Dubinsky hurts a little but he’s easily replaced by Nash. Anisimov had little place on the team with Stepan passing him on the depth chart.

Erixon is a nice prospect but with Staal, McDonagh already on the team and McIlrath in the minors, he was hardly needed.

And the first is a first. Hardly something to cry over.

For Columbus it’s meh. I suppose two top 6 players and a three 1sts next year. Added another dman to a defense corps getting very crowded.

the jackets were ripped off. its a terrible deal for them. they got 2 players who are suited to play on the 2nd or 3rd line at best.

Erixon is a long term project on D. No impact like McD or MDZ would have had immediately.

and the 1st will be no better than 25th overall. a player who wont help them for 5 years unless they get like Corey Perry, Claude Giroux lucky. but with that management team, i doubt it.

Howson should get canned.

Their All Star for the game next season in Columbus is Jack Johnson, or Brobovsky. That’s brutal.

They should have demanded Kreider back. or at least one of the pieces I named.

Toronto could have overpaid with Kulemin, who i think is better than Dubinsky. Kadri, who offers similar question marks like Anisimov but both talented. Percy, who is long term like Erixon, and the 1st which has a greater chance of being in the top 15.

There were better deals out there IMO.

i would have even taken that rumored offer Boston has for Ryan which was Krecji and a 1st. that’s even better than what CBJ just got.

You would think there were better deals. I just can’t imagine Howson couldn’t have gotten a better deal. Two things though. One: Howson has some hard on for Dubinsky/Anisimov. Good players, but nothing outright. Maybe they need a new opportunity.

Or more likely ownership made it a necessary part of the deal that they get players that can help now and make them money so they can stem the tide of financial collapse. It’s always this way for big deals like this.

I agree though. There had to be better deals out there. This really isn’t good for them. The Rags killed this (no surprise really. Sather is one of the best traders in the league.).

I have to believe too howson wasn’t dumb enough to only deal with nash’s 1st choice which was Ny. Or was he? He has only himself to blame. If it’s true det offered franzen and filppula and others and declined only to not face him, well that’s enuf 4 me to fire him.

Franzen is old, CLB wanted youth…. And I can’t see Detroit giving him up…. Fillpula is smaller and doesn’t produce greatly more so than dubinsky or anisimov… He had a kinda break out season this year but it was only 20 goals and 60 some points… Dubinsly has the same capabilities…

I think they’ll be better. Their growing as a unit, some interesting players coming up.

Nabokov stays healthy, he can win some games.

I think they’re better then people give them credit for…Imagine if Toronto played against the Flyers, Rangers, Penguins, and Devils 24 times in a year? They can’t even handle their own crappy division.

I actually like their defense now. It’s pretty strong. Not hugely amazing but it’s decent. Tyutin is underrated. Johnson, if he plays like he did with CBJ last season, will be unreal. Wiz was great when he wasn’t injured.

They are deeper. It could work for them. Depth of 2nd-third liners? Could be a similar tactic to Nashville/Phoenix (without Weber/Rinne/Suter in Nasvhille but I digress).

Gambo, what up dude? I just wanna say that I generally agree with what ur saying, look at the Red Wings, they don’t win all those Cups without the likes of Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Zetts, Franzen, Holmstrom, Kronwall, Rafalski, Hasek, etc. A lot of Swedes haha, but still they got a lot of key players out of Europe and the States.

However, to Nords point, I definitely think there is something to having local boys dawn the Blue and White. Look at all the Khristich’s who have passed through here who buckle under the pressure and spot light.

We wanna get back to the days of Tucker, Domi, Roberts, Corson, Belak, Green, McCabe, Wesley etc. Tough Canadians, hard to play against. Of course we also had a good role playing American in Fitzgerald, a couple tough Ruskies in Yushkevich and Markov, etc. But I agree with Nords that it would be nice to have some core Canadian boys leading the way.

Hey man, yeah I understand what you guys are saying. I am fully supportive of getting bigger and tougher, back to like you said the days when we had Tucker/Domi/Roberts etc.

I just don’t think it’s fair (anymore) to say that only Canadians play that style, not saying anyone said that. I look at players like Dustin Brown, David Backes and Ryan Callahan. To me those three resemble the typical “Canadian” style of play. All three of them are American.

And I don’t have an issue with that idea. Someone playing in the USHl who didn’t grow up in Ontario won’t understand playing for the Leafs, just like someone who grew up in Toronto won’t understand playing for the Habs.

I get that and I have no issue going after players that both fit needs, are talented and understand that. And funny enough Burke has done that in the majority of his NHL draft as Leaf GM.

I don’t get going after a player simply because he’s Canadian and Canadian’s fit a style of play. That’s what I have issue with.

I actually understand what you are both saying and agree both ways. Now part of the problem is that some of the “Ontario” boys maybe scared off by how the media and fans treat and react to the team. Not all no, but somne yes. I just want guys who play hard and give two shits, like you have both said in different ways.

While Colborne, Frattin, Reilly, Scrivens, Ross, Ashton are also good ol’ Canadian boys.

I think the draft will be the way to go from now on for Toronto. Its ok to select guys like Biggs, once in a while, but the players from around here, especially if they are home grown talents and original leafs, will relish playing here.

there’s pressure, but, i think with how the Leafs development structure is, which is lightyears better than it ever was with Eakins coaching the AHL team and a much deeper commitment to develop, i think those like Percy, Finn, etc will thrive.

I think you are completely right that the draft is now the way to go. I would have been willing to pay Eakins an NHL coaching salary to keep him with the Leafs if I were Burke. In my mind he is the single most important asset we have when it comes to development of prospects. His players just love to play for him and learn in the process.

I get the want to have all Canadians, I mean Anaheim was pretty much that build when they won the cup (zero Americans on that team) but sometimes that just isn’t possible to build the best team, and since the difference now between Canadian hockey players and American hockey players are not that different anymore there is no need to be “prejudice” I guess is a decent word to use.

I mean going back, what better moves could we have made that got us Canadians instead of Americans and still made our team better?

-There was no one available that was better than Kessel at the time, and while it seems that we should have kept the picks (especially considering we are still not a playoff team which was the point in getting Kessel), he was the best option.

-And who could have we gotten in the Beauchemin trade that was better than Gardiner? Pretty much no one, maybe Fowler but he is American as well.

-Same thing with the JVR trade, which Canadian power forward could we have traded Schenn straight up for that is clearly (not arguably) better than JVR? I cannot think of one available.

Anyway I know wanting to have only Canadians on your team is a big want but it just is not practical or even really possible to do without making your team worse.

Ok and just for fun, what if we made trades that dumped all our non-Canadians for Canadians only:

*note: these deals will likely be all pro-Leaf deals since I refuse to take 3 hours to think this out hardcore. lol.*

Jamie Benn is an RFA and in my mind is one of the most underrated players. He does it all. Scores, passes, can play either wing or center, hits, fights and is good in his own end. And…. Is Canadian;)

Another player from Dallas that I love and want the leafs to make a push for is Morrow. Leader, physical, perfect 3rd liner.

I hate saying this, but I don’t know if Kessel can be as successful under Carlyle for a whole season. Maybe a trade with Kessel going to the stars and Benn and Morrow coming back would be beneficial for both teams.

Whose jordie benn? but, i gotta say i like te idea of kessel for benn and morrow, but I dont like seeing bozak leave. I’d rather throw in a player like matt lombardi and ask for a prospect, atm im not sure who jordie is, so i ant really gauge his value. good idea though

To TOR: Benn, Morrow , Campbell (2nd or 3rd conditional)
I really like this because I think Benn can replace Kessel up on the first line, but i know it doesnt sole our cebtre problems. If we could substitue Lupul instead of Kessel, and not ask for Morrow I wouldnt mind. i really like Campbell as a Goaltending prospect , and I want to have more options in T.O, for the future of our crease.
-Rob

Need a center for Kessel, so we trade him to get that? Doesn’t make any sense to me. And this “Carlyle system won’t allow Kessel to succeed” is an idiotic idea (sorry to rant about it to you, your just the one that mentioned it first haha). Any good coach will support his player. Carlyle won’t force Kessel to play a game that will drop him from an 80 point player to a 60 point player simply because he’s done it before. It’s bad coaching and Carlyle isn’t a bad coach.

I’m not sure I would. Does it really help us that much? I suppose the idea would be that we have Kadri to replace him as a skilled winger and Morrow brings a leadership element, but I can’t get past giving up a young 30 goal scorer just entering his prime who showed us he can play at a 90 point pace with actual top 6 linemates.

Benn’s potential is high but he hasn’t shown us 90 point play yet. Kessel has. And if we trade Kessel, we open up a need for a winger for Benn.

In all fairness if Benn played an 82 game season like Kessel had, he would have been a 70+ point player with 30 goals. Kessel is also 2 years older than Benn. So we would be losing a 30 goal scorer who is just entering his prime, but we would also be getting a 30 goal scorer who is entering their prime.

I’m not saying that Benn is better than Kessel, because he’s not. Benn just brings more to the table and if the trade was what I proposed we would also be getting back Morrow who would be a huge acquisition to our team. We would also be dumping Connolly’s contract to a team where he would be needed.

Like you said, Kadri could replace Kessel as the skilled winger, not quite to the same extent, but I see Kadri being a similar game changing player as Kessel.

I don’t want to trade Kessel, but this is one deal that I wouldn’t mind.

Pittsburgh still has Crosby and Malkin and a host of good players. If they shore up their D, they will be tough again.

Philly, if they get Weber, they will be a cup favorite.

The Rangers got Nash and now have the offensive punch to go with their still strong D, having given up no one there in the Nash trade and of course Lundqvist.

Boston is still tough, they have Chara, they have Lucic, they have a ton of depth still.

Buffalo will be a tough one, they are bigger, deeper and of course still have Ryan Miller. If he can play strong for a full season, they will be good.

Washington still has Ovey. And Holtby looks like the real deal and they have a good D. if Backstrom plays a full year, they will be solid.

Ottawa is a solid, well rounded team that has star power with Spezza, Alfredsson and Karlsson. they will hang tough.

Tampa finally has repaired their backend, if Lindback proves himself, they will be an improved team. Carle was a great addition.

Florida may get Luongo and will a gritty, hard-working team will be a tough competitor in the east again.

Carolina got the Staals and of course have Cam Ward in goal, they will be no slouches.

The Devils lost Parise, but are still a solid, experienced, veteran team that will compete.

Winnipeg made some nice additions are a very big club and the size could be tough to handle.

Montreal is not deep, but any team with Carey Price will be competitive.

the Isles have made some decent, low key additions and are a young team growing.

where do the Leafs fit in here? Well, they are not much different than the team from last year. Without more changes, more grit, more leadership, more Canadian content added, I think they will struggle once again.

Connelly and Steckel definitely not. Komisarek I think has all these intangibles and I like Komo but it’s hard to help and and give and advice when you’re struggling to crack the roster yourself.

Liles though not a ‘warrior’ I take issue with not providing leadership. He is definitely a competitor and his presence pre concussion was a big help on the back end.

I really hope he rebounds this season and we see the Liles we seen the first half of the season. He logged a lot of minutes and was so solid at both ends. Hardly the only reason but losing Liles was a contributing factor to the big collapse.

A rock solid leader up front would be great I had wanted Arnott for the third line center role, perfect leadership and can still win face offs.

I’m not sold on McClement but it is a low risk move. I know he plays a ton of PK minutes but is he good at it? If he can be excellent on the PK and atleast mediocre 5 on 5 I’ll be happy because that PK needs serious work. For the PK to get better goaltending has much better too.

I think Ottawa has gotten way softer… They’re going to get bullied easily. Same with the Leafs.. I hope we keep Orr in the line up. We were good in the games he was up, actually. Lucic was better behaved and we didn’t have problems with the Sens when they had a bunch of gritty guys up front. Orr-Steckel-Brown seems like a good 4th line to me. I don’t think him being in the line up is bad but Burke is speaking out against “enforcers.”

The Devils lost Poni, Parise, have an aging Brodeur, and they really only have two really promising players for the future IMO. But this team did make a cup run so who knows.

Washington needs a coach who can run an offensive system – the type that Ovechkin thrives in… why make a system that works against your star player’s style? Just because he can’t play defense doesn’t mean his offensive production is negative towards that.. not everyone is a Datsyuk.

I have been saying for about two years that the Leafs need to get bigger and harder to play against. Except for the odd few (Nords and Doorman are two I remember agreed with me) all I kept hearing was we need more “skill”, size doesn’t win championships, “skill” does. I kept hearing, we need players like Semin, they win championships, not guys like Clarkson or D. Brown. Funny how things change…thankfully though.

“Skill” has its place on any team but is not the deciding factor to win a championship. Having the other team dread playing against you because they know they will have to go through hell is just as important. Having your skilled players feel relaxed because they know the other team is afraid to f*ck with them allows them to play their game and put up points.

Burkes major mistake, beyond keeping Wilson behind the bench for so long, was removing the toughness from the team that he originally acquired. He went for “speed and skill” and we stumbled instead of progressing. These are Burkes two biggest mistakes that lead to where we are. He has made some good moves, but blew it on this front.

Want to know why we can’t attract the big names now? Think about it, why would star players come to play on a young team that has no intimidation factor. Why go to a team where you know other teams will take liberties with you on a nightly basis. Toronto has some players that would interest other stars to play with (Kessel, JVR, Lupul, Grabo), but they see how these guys get destroyed night in and night out and say …no thanks.

To Nords point about Canadian boys…it has merit. We need players who understand what it takes to win a championship and want to be that guy who helps a storied franchise return to glory. Chances are, Americans and Europeans don’t fully understand that. Doesn’t mean we can’t have American’s and Europeans, it means the players who most likely fit what we need (Size, toughness and pride)are going to be Canadians and possibly Ontario born.

We already have some skill(could use one more in the top six, Ryan for ex.), let’s protect these guys with some size and make Toronto a tough place to play and hopefully we could attract more players to want to come here.

Not to sound like I disagree with Nords, but two Americans who I think get it are Komi as he has played for the two most storied franchises in NHL history. The other is Reemer, his comparing the Leafs to the Yankees, tells me he gets the importance of the franchise and what it means to wear that crest. Also on a different note, I like how Biggs and broll squared off at rookie camp right off the bat, two guys who play a style we need more of.

We will see how JVR works out, but he sounds like he gets it. Agreed on Komi…he works hard, just a bad contract. As I said, doesn’t mean we can’t have Americans, but we need players who play the style we need … and most are Canadians I’m sure you’d agree.

Well I think there is a lot more anger towards this team than any of the other poor teams the Leafs have fielded and that is because this team is not really likeable.

I think a lot of fans really like and prefer the home grown talents that come through and moreso the players from around here.

I think its especially true with the fact there has been more and more stronger, big name talents from Ontario of late. Stamkos, Tavares, Hall, Seguin, its been exciting. I watch the OHL sometimes, not attend every local game, but see enough. Lots of exciting talent.

We really endeared ourselves to the team the last 20 cause of Clark, Gilmour, Roberts, Tucker, Domi, Cujo, etc.

Obviously, with it being a global game, you are going to be very international. But the lack of Canadian content for “Canada’s Team” is poor.

I remember one idiot called into the fan 590 last year and you can tell he was east indian or something and he said that one of the biggest reasons why Kadri hasn’t made the team yet is because he wasn’t white!!!

and Jeff Blair really ripped into this guy, and disconnected him, what a stupid excuse just to get some attention.

I wasn’t even calling him racist. I was more using hyperbole to call attention to an idiotic and illogical (at least in my view) idea that only Canadians are going to fit our needs and we should only focus on going after them. I don’t think that’s conducive to winning, so I called him out. Apparently I’m “politically correct” though. Oi vey

It wouldn’t make any difference what so ever. It’s merely a convenient excuse when this team is doing badly that they can point to and say “this is why we aren’t winning”.

You conveniently leave out that some of our most usccesful players in Leaf history and most beloved Leafs aren’t even Canadian. Salming and Sundin?

Wendel Clark is from Saskatchewan. Tucker from Alberta.

We have Canadians. We have Canadians that play a game that many of you profess to like. Our Captain does both and somehow gets hated. Our top prospect Kadri gets more crap than he deserves (even though he’s done little to justify it), plays a tough hard nosed game and is from London. Yet that doesn’t seem to endear him to the fans.

The lack of Canandian content? We had 16 Canadians on the team last year…

Sorry I’m just annoyed with this idea that we should just focus on Canadian players. I just fail to see clear logic in it. It’s not enough to say that “Cup teams” have won with them, because as RLF mentioned, the majority of the NHL is Canandian. It stands to reason very team will have Canadians on it. So What am I missing here?

I’m pretty sure most people here never argued for going with just skill. In fact I know most people here argued that grit and size were needed. They however didn’t argue for it exclusively over skill.

You need skill to win. LA didn’t win on grit alone. Kopitar, Carter (Who does not hit or play physical in the least) were necessary cogs to winning. However you are correct (and I’m not sure many disagreed with you, but I digress) in saying grit is needed. Grit supports skill. They are mutual, not exclusive to each other. You need one as much as the other.

Love the anti-nationality rhetoric as well. Don’t care what you say, it’s there and it’s borderline racist. Your essentially saying not being a Canadian precludes the possibility of being tough, having size or even more ridiculous and inane pride and the desire to win.

I have no issue wanting Canadian players on the Leafs. In fact I get the “storied franchise, ontario born players understand this more than anyone” and will fully admit it is a valid argument. But to turn down other players simply because they aren’t Canadian? Ridiculous. YOu want a particular style? Fine by me. I like hard nosed hockey, in fact I love it. But I’m not biased enough to be blinded to other nationalities having players that fit this style.

A usual, you don’t actually read…you read into things. I never said Americans and Europeans cannot have size or toughness. I said, “the players who most likely fit what we need (Size, toughness and pride-meaning wearing a leafs jersey)are going to be Canadians and possibly Ontario born.”
For the record. I like the JVR trade (an American), we filled a hole by trading from a strength of depth on D (Schenn, a Canadian). I also said we need a top 6 forward still and used Ryan as an example…who is an AMERICAN.
I never said people argued with me that grit is not needed. I said that when I said we needed more grit at the time, they argued we needed more skill instead. People have said it’s skill that wins and that was my point. You seem to take it personal, I guess you were one of them.

The ridiculous and idiotic thing is you basically calling me a racist because I point out what we need, which is more size and toughness and will most likely find it in Canadian born players. That is a well known sentiment in the NHL (even among players)and Canadians still have a about 50% hold on total players in the League. Numbers suggest it will be likely a Canadian. Ask Jeremy Roenick his thoughts on this, who is an American by the way.
I bet if I said we need more finese type scorers and they tend to be Russian you wouldn’t call me a racist for that, would you.

I don’t read, but read into things? How would I do that without reading…

Also didn’t say you did say that. Merely mentioned you alluded to it.

“To Nords point about Canadian boys…it has merit. We need players who understand what it takes to win a championship and want to be that guy who helps a storied franchise return to glory.Chances are, Americans and Europeans don’t fully understand that. Doesn’t mean we can’t have American’s and Europeans, it means the players who most likely fit what we need (Size, toughness and pride)are going to be Canadians and possibly Ontario born.”

Read your comment again. Whether it was intentional or not (bias, discrimination can still exist in people without them explicitly stating they hate this or that) you clearly suggested that non-Canadians don’t fully understand what it takes to win. You then go on to state, that while we can have Americans or Finns or Russians (whatever), the need we have is most likely found in Canadians.

Whether you think you did or not, you suggested that Americans/Russians/Finns/any other non-Canadians don’t have size/pride/toughness. This has nothing to do with me reading into something (which would be really really hard for me to do since I don’t know you in any way outside teh words you wrote).

The sentence structure and words you wrote, suggested a bias against non-Canadians.

And I said it was borderline racist. Didn’t call you racist (maybe you should listen to your own suggestion, and read). I said you displayed anti-non-Canadian rhetoric (which as I just showed, you did) and said it was “borderline” racist. I suppose you more suggested we pick Canadians based on stereotypes (which you did), which is still discriminatory (again, didn’t call you racist lol).

A well known sentiment? Guess what, sentiment once held women shouldn’t vote. We should probably conform to popular sentiment shouldn’t we?

Yes, Canadians represent a large chunk of the NHL. However that doesn’t preclude other players from A) being better than them B) being more physical, tough, prideful then them.

I’m not, nor did I, suggest turning down talented Canadians that fit into our needs. I did suggest we look everywhere for that. If a Finnish player fits our need, we should go after him. If a Canadian player fits that need, we should go after him. But going after a player because he’s Canadian, and Canadian player’s are said to play a certain style is idiotic, and discriminatory (not racist, but borderline, and certainly stereotyping).

being a leaf is way different. look at us fans and how we care. A ton of us are from around here. right at ground zero to the centre of the hockey universe.

i wonder, a player like Finn. and Percy for that matter. i think they’d be pretty proud to be leafs and have that passion for the crest. i think its special to them.

yes people will go back to Carlo, Stajan, who didnt do well, but i beg to differ. stajan actually cared. Gosh every interview i swear the guy was going to cry from losing. I think it meant something special. but at the same time, these guys were put in bad spots. Stajan replacing Sundin? crazy. Carlo playing at age 18? see Schenn. he knows how that doesnt work here.

I think the organization is way better for that now with how they develop, train, and nurture these young players and i think those coming in will thrive way better and not be forced to be the next Sundin yesterday.

league is too international to not have players from all countries. we have belarus, germany, sweden, finland, usa, russia, canada and estonia representing.

its going to happen. but, here in Toronto, there are a lot of players similar to the likes of Steckel, Brown, Komisarek, Liles, Komarov, Aucoin, etc, that are CANADIAN, and I personally think would be making this team better because of the care factor. because of that special feeling of being a Leaf, which regardless of the current situation, have a pretty decent and long history.

its not really about replacing the kessels or the gardiners, the JVRs, or the Kulemins. they’re pretty special players. but there were opportunities to get players not like Connolly, Komi, etc and i personally think it would have made a difference here.

and i like how all but Biggs and D’Amigo, among the prospects, are all Canadian: Colborne, Kadri, Scrivens, Percy, Finn, Reilly, Blacker, Ashton, Frattin.

the current team though is not made up that way and i think its to the leafs detriment.

I think alot of these players are professional and know they have a job to do and so forth. but i think it means so much more for those guys who understand the leafs place as an original 6 and what it means to put on the blue and white.

I said “basically” calling me a racist…basically/borderline, whats the difference? It’s idiotic to suggest either.

I would like to see some more size, toughness and players that will have pride wearing the Leafs jersey. My belief is that I will have an easier time finding a Canadian to fit that bill. By no means does that mean I am saying there are not players from other countries that can help or are excellent hockey players

Again, if I didn’t think there were players from other countries that could help us, why did I use D.Brown and B.Ryan as examples of players that would help. I would also like Zetterberg and Malkin to come to Toronto, but don’t see that happening.

Here’s a question for you;

Who do you think it means more to if they won a KHL Championship…A born and bred Russian player or an imported Canadian playing in the KHL?

If you read my posts in any way I didn’t take issue with the idea that a born and bred Ontario boy would cherish winning in Toronto. I suggested you had some very interesting (read: stereotyping, biased, non-discriminatory) ideas on the subject that I clearly had a problem with.

And borderline/basically are not the same thing at all. Basically means essentiall racist. Borderline means almost but not. I never once suggested you were racist. Just closing in on it. And your resulting comment didn’t do anything to change my mind.

All I’m saying dude, is that it’s a little idiotic to not leave open the possibility that another nationality could produce players that fit our need. We’re getting way off topic. I don’t care if you want Canadians because they will understand what it means to win in Canada, but I take a huge issue with saying that Canadians are going to fit our standard and not other nationalities. Maybe I misunderstood what you said. It just appeared to be prejudicial, which is just stupid in my opinion.

I’m not saying don’t go for Canadians, I’m not saying don’t go fro big, strong players. I’m just saying that those player’s exist outside of Canada and ignoring them simple because they aren’t Canadian? It’s illogical.

Still doesn’t address size and grit, but Sam Gagner’s 1-year deal with the Oilers tells me he’s still in play. I would like to see Burke try to land Gagner and Bernier. Given their ages they could be good fits for the long term plan.

he was doing well with Eberle and Hall, then Hall got hurt and then RNH came back and took his spot.

i think he could be like Grabovski. 60-70 point scorer. 30 goal potential. I dont think he is poor defensively. But, that’s hard to say. The Oilers are so horrific defensively. I dont know if that improves here as the Leafs are not much better.

I think that is the big questionmark, not really his size. my own question mark is having him and Kessel together. I think they may be too similar. like how Kessel and grabs tend to not really work well together.

I think it would be a huge addition. Gagner as of last year was already at leader as good as Bozak already. Gagner is just coming into his prime, and i think were going to see the best of him over the next 4-5 years.

50-60 points iant a stretch from where he is already, so I feel confident in predicting he’ll become at least that. But he has great hands and I think he could cap out at around 80 points or so , in a career year of course.

With rumors of Kane being closer to signing with the Jets i
I guess ill day dream about Benn? Why isnt a deal done is Dallas? I know Burke wouldn’t offer sheet Joe but can he use the threat of someone else offer sheet to work on a trade?

I’m not even talking about Benn on the cheap I’d give up lots except no k
Kessel. Screw trying JVR at center let’s try Benn as Kessels center. Now that could be something special.

Eklund made some twitter post about a Canadian team offer sheeting him.

I’d love him but I know it’s only a dream. I can’t imagine Burke would go to Niuewy and try to push him into a corner.

I’d do the same though if it were me. I’d have no issue giving up a lot for Benn. None whatsoever. Then we wouldn’t have to try JVR at center. We’d have Benn lol. Trade Kadri, Colborne, 1st next year, Franson, MacArthur, Bozak haha. I’d give up a ton for Benn.

If you look at Joe’s FA trades he is looking to go for something. I mean the signings of Jagr, Whitney, Roy trade seem to be pointing towards him wanting to go for it now. So if we are looking at Benn I would guess it would be a more of a roster player move then a futures move. That being said outside of our core players what could we ideally offer up? IMHO if I am GMJN I would want at least Grabovski back. You need someone to fill in the void that is 2C and While Bozack has done us okay he is not a 2C more of a Great 3C okay 2C.

I would be okay with this move pending how well JoeCo does in training camp. If we can see the JoeCo that we had tearing up the AHL then Moving Grabovski to upgrade Bozack to Benn makes a ton of sense.

Now I am not saying a 1 for 1 swap but I feel the true starting point would be Grabovski. Hands down.

Yeah I’m hesitant to trade Colborne (obviously in the right trade I do it in a second) because of how elite he looked in that first month of this season. His injuries could really be hiding how good he’s become.

I’d be ok with that deal. I would think it’s a decent starting point for Dallas to, if they are forced to trade Benn.

Although I feel like Joe could get better deals. But maybe he helps Burke out, while Burke helps him out. I don’t know.

You absolutely can. His value took a hit when everybody knew he was leaving Columbus, plus his contract, and then toss in a list of 5 teams. Personally, I’d take Benn over Nash. But to me, it’s either Grabo or Kulemin, I don’t think you can give up both. But, giving up Kulemin and Gunnarson won’t get you Benn.

I wouldn’t hate that signing… I mean Doan is only 35 and likely 3 years minimum away from retirement…. And it essentially marks the end of gomez if that happened…. It makes us much more competitive immediately…. But gomez would have to be waived if that signing happened… No ifs or Ands about it…. Huge upgrade as well… I would bite that bullet of an overpayment of a contract…

So there are rumors that two Canadian teams have approached Jamie Benn. I’m not sure how true they are, or even if the Leafs are one (I suspect that’s unlikely). However Benn not only fits a need but he fits the core of the team that Burke has been building so far. So here’s a question (and just ignore past Burke talking of not offer sheeting someone).

Do you offer Jamie Benn a 6 year, 7 million dollar a year deal? Or a 5 year 8.4 million a year deal.

I suspect Dallas would match any reasonable deal (5-6 million). At that amount its a risk but a small one. So to have a shot at him, you have to overpay.

At 7 million dollars for 6 years, it works out to 42 million. That’s about the upper limit to not pay four first round picks for Benn (its the total cash divided by number of years, or 5 whichever is lower). At the 5 year deal, it’s the same but for more money and less years. One presents more chance at not getting matched.

Essentially it’s Kessel deal all over again. Would you risk overpaying for him contract wise at 8.4 million a year, or risk him getting matched by going with more term and less cash?

Here is the catch for me, if our PK, defensive play is shored up and we get decent goaltending, then yes I would not throw a hissy fit to here Burke made a deal like that again. But those picks need to fall 15th or later,any type of collapse and it is a disaster to have two deals like that fall apart so close together.

My question is if we did shore up a contract for Jamie Benn and the offer sheet went through. Would you then start looking harder at Luongo? With both we have two of our major holes filled but the thing is does Benn and Lou push us over the top to compete?

ya i think that puts us at a level too compete. i think were one shut down defenseman and maybe a 2nd line winger of doing some damage if that went through. then we have connolly, lombardi coming off the books next year. with reilly, gardiner and liles signed long term, it makes franson expendable for a tougher defenceman for say hamonic and bozak has some value, i assume bozak + connolly/lombardi + maybe a prospect will be going the other way for lu. then we have kadri colborne ashton coming up in the AHL.. Benn makes a lot of sense too me. Especially his ability to switch over to the wing if we make a huge push for getz next year.

It really got me thinking hard about it as we do have tons of Tyler Bozacks on staff right now and Hammer plays a similar game to Carl Gunnarsson. Thought maybe he would be a go partner for say Jake Gardiner or even JML?

Interesting. Where did you hear that? Niklas Hjalmersson, 24 years old, steady stay home d-man, a little bit over payed maybe. I think it would be hard to justify bringing in a defenceman at $4 million given what we’re already paying Dion, Komi, and Liles, and considering Gunner and Gardiner are due for raises in the next two years.

Is it a legitimate rumour? I’m not 100% sure I love it, but I definitely think it would make our team better in the short term, and we’d be adding a potential long term piece to our blueline.

And I agree, Grabo and McClement seem like they’ll be playing centre on the 2nd line, and for Jay either the 3rd or 4th line, plus we’ve got Steckel, so I guess one could play wing. Then between Bozak, Connolly, Lombardi, Colborne, JVR, and possibly Kadri we definitely have a surplus of centres. So Bozie is expendable if we can land a good player back.

i like it. Would shore our defence up a bit. But i wouldnt mind waiting to see if reilly is ready for the jump right away. i know we dont want to rush him but if hes ready, hes ready and ive heard good things about his compete and physical readyness for the nhl, he might be ready

I don’t think he’s not ready. I I think it would be really, really dumb to have him make this team. He missed nearly an entire season and that’s going to hurt his development. Having him dominate the WHL would be better for him than going to the NHL.

And one thing to keep in mind. He looked awesome in development camp. But that’s development camp. He was playing against CHLers and maybe some bigger guys.

Ya let’s not rush Rielly. Hopefully we’ll be an improved team by next year, and possibly bring him into a better situation, or maybe not even until the following year. He’ll only be 20 then, no big deal, Gardiner was a 21 year old rookie, there’s no rush to ever bring 18 year olds in if they’re border-line ready.

If Burke wanted to be bold, he would give a 6 million offer sheet to Benn and possibly give up a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd.

OR

He could threaten Dallas and offer them a decent trade.

This should be a decent trade for both squads.

TOR TRADES:

Grabovski (long-term deal and would fill the void of Benn)
Franson (They need another offensive defencemen, besides Goligoski, not much)
Colborne/Kadri (I would prefer Colborne, yeah, your reading right…Dallas would to as a long-term option)
Conditional 1st (Top-5 or 10 protected…OR Toronto chooses to give up either 2013 pick or 2014, which is not bad for TO as well)

DAL TRADES:

Jamie Benn

I think it’s a fair deal for both sides if Burke can force Niewendyk’s hand a bit. Might even be better than what Columbus got for Nash.

I like this trade for Toronto for multiple reasons, it gives tons of line combinations for the top-six:

1) Lupul- Benn- Kessel
JVR- Kadri- Kulemin

OR

2) Lupul- JVR- Kessel
Kadri- Benn- Kulemin

OR

3) Lupul- JVR- Kessel
Benn- Kadri- Kulemin

I’m actually a big fan of combination 2…And I could see it working very well. It’s very complete in terms of offence and defence.

Also, for Noridiques, brings another Canadian into the fold.

But for this occur, Burke would have to be risky, smart, and opportunistic…Something we haven’t seen since the Phaneuf deal.

I like that you took my idea of Grabovski and ran with it. I honestly think the trade you give them is very fair. In an ideal world it would be amazing if we could keep Grabovski as he is a great second line option. But he is what I think it would take to try and trade for Benn.

I am surprised as I never usually see eye to eye with you but that line up is amazing with Benn and Kuli centered by Kadri. Both Benn and Kuli can open up the ice to let Kadri be creative also with Kessel having a great passing ability he would look great with JVR who can drive the net.

Having a good second-line center is great, but it’s pretty useless to have him with the amount of holes still on the top-line. To be honest, he only makes Toronto mediocre. Toronto’s obviously not good enough to make the playoffs, but they’re certainly not bad enough to finish dead last.

Like the lineups state, I think we could survive without him. The lineup is a bit young, but has loads of potential.

Also, another thing, I think with the amount of crappy contracts gone next year…And most of that top-siz signed. I think Toronto would be a very attractive place for free agents.

Who knows? Toronto might be able to deal MacArthur for a first (they should do it this time) if the opportunity presents itself…To replace the possible loss of a 2013 pick.

It’s a good deal…But this only occurs if Burke threatens Dallas hard….Which i doubt

I like the deal. But if we’re going after him through trade, I’d really like to try and get Oleksiak while we’re at it. He’d be a good fit on the Marlies with Blacker for this season and he’s already physically ready for the pros.

It’s a great idea. Threaten Niuewy with an offer sheet paying a guy not worth 6plus million dollars or trade him to us. It’s brilliant. The trade wouldn’t even be a bad one. Dallas gets an established, still young, extended top 6 center, a top prospect (I’m surprised you included Colborne), a good top 6 offensive dman with a big shot, and a first rounder (top 10 protected is good I think).

And you make a great point about it giving us huge forward options. That top 6 looks awesome. Potential laden, young and largely locked up for years (I’d assume Benn would be locked up to a similar deal to the Kessel deal).

Risky/Smart/Opportunistic. Things I still think he is. It’s just his damn vendetta against offer sheets (although he never explicitly said he wouldn’t use them) and likely his relationship with Nieuwy. So it’s unlikely to happen which sort of sucks. Still I wouldn’t hesitate to do it. I’d love to see him use offer sheets the way he did with Kessel. But Alas, it won’t happen.

I think Toronto is pretty content now with what they have as their top 6 forwards and are more than willing to try JVR as the no. 1 centre. I think he is going to get a long long look.

Lupul, Kessel, JVR, Grabovski are top 6 locks.

Kulemin, MacArthur, Frattin, Kadri, Colborne are probably next in line.

I think Bozak, Connolly and Lombardi are good as gone, but if they do make it to camp, they’re in the mix too.

Its the 3rd and 4th lines which will likely be what BB focuses on.

McClement, Steckel and probably Brown if healthy are locks.

Komarov, Orr, Ashton, Aucoin and possibly some of the names above will be among the bottom 6.

Its a pretty weak group. A term I’ve used a lot. Quantity, but not quality.

I dont think the D is absolutely set either. If Franson isnt guaranteed a top 6 spot, he wants out. I think they are actively trying to move Komisarek, but are finding little to no interest.

Other than Holzer, I sincerely hope none of the other kids will be forced onto the team a la Schenn. We’ve ruined too many guys that way over the last few decades, never mind years.

Burke’s main focus i still think is goaltending and He can’t do a thing until he sees if he can land Luongo or else Bernier.

I think once that is resolved, then he can focus on adding to the bottom 6. In the meantime I do think he is trying hard to dump Lombardi, Connolly and Komisarek. That’s 13 mil in cap space.

As much as we would like to see, I dont believe the likes of Benn, Evander Kane, Getzlaf, etc are on the agenda in the foreseeable future.

GOAL

The two rumored offers on the table are:

MacArthur, Komisarek and a 2nd round pick for Luongo. I believe the Canucks want a 1st and Kulemin instead of MacArthur. hence no deal so far. IMO i say no to Vancouver if that is what they want. Luongo is a good goalie. A top 10 goalie. He could make a difference. But the hole left up front with Kulemin the only capable 2 way player up front, and losing the 1st rounder is not worth it at all.

Frattin and a 2nd round pick for Bernier. I think this is pretty close but I think LA is holding out for a 1st rounder. No chance. If Burke includes the 1st, he should be fired on the spot.

DEFENCE

I don’t believe he has any interest in Bouwmeester but I think he should investigate. I think he’d be huge in Toronto with the minutes he can play and the steadiness he’d bring.

For Bouwmeester, I’d offer the same for Luongo: MacArthur, Komisarek and a 2nd. I think though they’d want a centre, like say Colborne. Whatever permutation occurs, IMO Calgary would have no choice but to take Connolly or Komisarek. A fat salary has to go back. The better the prospect, the more the salary.

Another intriguing option to me is Boyle. I think he’d be real good with Dion. I dont know, maybe a package including Liles, MacArthur and a prospect or 2nd round pick could do it.

Boyle is another guy who is steady and can eat minutes.

Someone above mentioned Hjalmarsson. I like him. Him and Gunnarsson could play together and have Gardiner join Dion on the top pair. Gunny’s pair could be the shutdown pairing.

Hjalmarsson is 25 and has been pretty good with Chicago. He is just overpaid for what he does. I’d probably try something like Bozak and Franson and a mid level prospect, for Hjalmarsson and Beach. I think for Chicago’s benefit, them getting 2 guys who make what Hjalmarsson makes combined, but are NHLers, will help them. I think Hjalmarsson upgrades the leafs D and Beach is the kind of player BB likes. Big and mean, but young still too.

SALARY DUMPING

Back to salary dumping, I think Lombardi could be a good fit in Tampa. They could use centre depth behind Stamkos and Lecavalier and have a pretty large core of French Canadians on the team. Whatever Toronto gets back is moot. Just get rid of that salary.

Connolly is pretty useless. They could try to move him to Florida for Mike Santorelli. They’d save like 3 mil there. Florida is one of the few teams with the cap space.

They could try too to give Komisarek to the Islanders. I think though they need to resolve the Vishnovsky situation.

BOTTOM 6 FORWARDS

There are some free agents they could look to: Matt Bradley, Jesse Winchester, Jay Rosehill, DJ King, Ryan O’Marra, Victor Oreshkovich who fit the 4th line/depth guy role. I think they have to clear some more names off the 50 contract max list.

There are a few others who are more top 9 guys. Guys who are between 2nd and 3rd line guys.

Brendan Morrow is one. I like him for his leadership and grit and I think he can still play. If he is added, Kulemin likely goes to the 3rd line to add more balance.

Ryane Clowe is another. He isnt the swiftest guy but he works his tail off, goes to the dirty areas and has size, grit and leadership, traits Toronto is lacking. He can fill a lot of roles, including being on the 3rd line/checking line.

I will revisit again Cal Clutterbuck. Ontario guy, most frequent hitter in the NHL, and he isnt that old, just 25. The Wild have added a lot of grinders, Mitchell, Konopka, Dowell, maybe, just maybe they’d move him? Pretty wishful thinking i know.

Despite some injury concerns, i do like Kyle Clifford and Kyle Beach.

Another Hawk, Brian Bickell intrigues me as well.

There’s the possibility they revisit acquiring Ryan Malone from Tampa.

There is either Joel Ward or Troy Brouwer from Washington. I’d prefer Brouwer cause he only has 1 year left on his deal.

Its another longshot but maybe David Clarkson?

I think though Burke would like younger players to sort of fit into what he is trying to build here and have not 5 or 6 greybeards make up his bottom 6. Its why the likes of Bickell, Beach, Brouwer, Clifford, Clutterbuck are probably more intriguing, but harder to acquire.

I would be pretty happy with Hjalmarsson on our team if we could get him at a reasonable price. He plays a defensive minded game that would look good with Gunnar as a shutdown pairing or even with Gardiner or Phaneuf.

I have this sinking feeling we will over pay for Luongo before the start of the season. I surly hope not but I just feel like we will.

Goal
I don’t really like either goalie right now, wouldn’t mind Bernier but I think we should wait and see who else becomes available. If that means starting the season with Reimer, to wait and see who becomes available, then that’s fine.

Defence
Jay Bouwmeester is a beast. This guys available and we need to get him. I don’t know why his production has dropped in Calgary, but he’s still been up close to 30 points, logging huge minutes as a top end shut-down defenceman.

I like Hjalmarsson a lot, and I like what you had to say about him. I have to agree, he and Gunner would be an ideal shutdown pair.

I love Dan Boyle. That would be ridiculous if we had his big right handed bomb from the point, and Dion’s left cannon on the other side. That power play would be deadly. Like Rafalski-Lidstrom deadly.

Forwards
Morrow or Clowe would be a huge addition. I know its just a “role player” but this type of player is a crucial role. You need these guys, and I think guys like Frattin, Kulemin, Ashton could learn a lot from a guy like Morrow. Honestly, I’d like to see us sign Shane Doan and trade for Brendan Morrow. You want to talk about establishing an identity, setting the standard for what kind of team you’re gonna be, put these guys on your bench and it changes the whole dynamic of your team, and its contagious to the other players.

Ryan Malone brings a lot of the same kind of things, but I don’t consider him to be quite at that Doan-Morrow level in terms of respect and leadership. But he wouldn’t be a bad plan B, if he’s available, I imagine Yzerman would move him.

His production dropped because they don’t use him well offensively. The offensive system just isn’t conducive to his offensive style. A lot of that was Sutter stifling him and it sticking long past Sutter’s end. It would take time for him to relearn how to be offensive but it could really work out well. It would definitely fit Burke’s pattern of going after guys with potential/pedigree who have shown significant potential before but are sort of in the pits currently. He wouldn’t be cheap though. Not as expensive as Boyle but he won’t be free or a salary dump. It would have to make sense to move him from Calgary’s perspective.

Boyle would be amazing. I think that’s a pipedream but it’s one I would be all over.

The Rangers are going to be a scary team. They have youth on their side, and some top stars. And what’s even more crazy? They still have 13 million in cap space paying Lundy/Richards/Nash/Gaborik 6 plus million each (although that will go down after the CBA for sure, but likely so will their salaries).

But rolling out Stepan/Gaborik on one line, Richards/Nash on another with Callahan/Kreider fitting on the other wing is going to be intense.

I think as much as we all love Gardiner, he should not be totally untouchable. By that I mean should a trade come along for an Evander Kane or Jamie Benn, he would be required (rightfully so) and frankly, I think it would be worth it.

He is an excellent defensemen, no doubt, but looking at the Leafs prospect list, I think they can absorb the loss. Blacker could make the jump soon, and I think Rielly could make the team as early as 2013/2014. Not to mention Percy and Finn, who are both a few years away, but also project as top 4 blueliners. (More so Finn)

For those talking about potentially trading for Jamie Benn or Evander Kane, would you throw in Gardiner? I would. In fact, I think Gardiner is preferable to trade than the 2013 1st, seeing as how strong the draft class is, as well as how strong the rest of the east is.

Gardiner, Colborne, 2013 2nd for Jamie Benn.

You have to give quality to get quality, and in this case, I think the Leafs blueline can take another hit.

Its time for the next Phil Kessel trade. Pay the price on a young top player, should either Kane or Benn become available that is.

“I think Gardiner is preferable to trade than the 2013 1st, seeing as how strong the draft class is”

No chance should we move Gardiner before we move the 1st round pick.

I would much rather give up 2013 1st, Colborne, 2013 2nd, etc waaay before I give up Gardiner, Colborne, 2013 2nd like you mentioned.

Unless we plan to pick top 5 again Gardiner is much more valuable and should be a much better player (at the very least he will be for a long while) than our 2013 1st. And if we plan to fall to top 5 again then giving up Gardiner who is a young and skilled asset is at best redundant (at worst pushes us back 2-4 years).

that’s real tough. those under 25 year old stars, well they appeal to me and he is at a position where the leafs need one desperately.

for me, the Leafs D is not good. in 2-3 years it might be though real good.

right now, without Gardiner, it puts more onus on Liles, Komi, Franson who are clearly to me, bottom pair Dmen. extending their minutes could be bad. Right now, only Dion and Gardiner are able to extend minutes at a high level.

if Reilly and Percy were 20, and they’ve had more development time, then yeah, i’d do it.

but there is just such a wide gap. I don’t like our D, i like it even less now with no Schenn. we’re sort of stuck. its why without a breath i’d consider JBO or Boyle if they are avialble. we need an upgrade.

but if we’re talking player for player. that’s a real even trade. like Neal for Goligoski.

If a spot opens up, who knows, maybe Blacker has a good camp and gets a spot. While I dont really see Franson as a part of the future, with extended minutes he could have trade value come deadline time.

If the Leafs are bad I am envisioning the ‘Joffrey Lupul Sweepstakes’ at the deadline. Perhaps Franson could garner a nice return as well.

I think the D could take the loss of Schenn and Gardiner.

Phaneuf – Gunnarsson
Liles – Franson
Komisarek – Holzer

It isnt pretty, but it could could out for a year or two. Besides, defense is more about system than personel, and Caryle’s system is more defensively oriented.

That pick is our best foreseeable chance at solving the center issue. I would say the Leafs are likely to pick top 10, maybe even top 5. The rest of the East is getting stronger faster, and Reimer is not a proven goalie. (Assuming he is the guy going in) In my mind, it should be untouchable. Benn could potentially be a solution, were he acquired, but he also may be better suited to the wing.

Gardiner is going to be an excellent top 4 puck mover. Probably Kaberle like. The Leafs may not have someone to fill that role right now, but Blacker could surprise going into camp, especially if a spot should become available. Plus Rielly is heir to the puck rushing throne in T.O., and while I know you can never have too much elite skating ability on the back end, I think when you have such an abundance (Rielly, Blacker, Finn, Percy) moving Gardiner is justifiable.

If that pick is in the 2-7 range, they will have a shot at a very good center. Looking at the rest of the East, that is very possible. (I think Columbus has the 1st pick locked up; unless we win the lottery) That pick could be Nathan MacKinnon, Sean Monahan, Alexander Barkov, etc…

that is a lot of ifs though and the key to me is if we are going for a top 5 pick or not going to upgrade our roster enough to be better than 10th overall then why on earth would we trade Gardiner who is our best rebuilding piece.

Gardiner only gets moved if we trade for a piece or multiple pieces that will make us better not only in the long term but in the short term as well.

If we are trading a big rebuilding piece we are better off dumping a draft pick that is not guaranteed to be a top player in the league than Gardiner who is already a top 4 D-man with an upside of a no.1 D-man.

For a player like Benn, giving up Gardiner would hurt less, but it would still hurt a lot. But it’s not bad logic or strategy. We’re deep at a position, he’s only played one season and we’d be filling a much bigger hole than we’d create.

I’d be ok doing that. That’s a high price but you’re right, you have to pay the price to get a top player.

Although I don’t agree with you on Gardiner being more preferable to trade than the 1st rounder in 2013. 2008 was a deep draft. 2013 could be a deep draft. Plus Gardiner has 4 year’s of development already and was likely the best rookie dman in the league. He easily trounces the value of that 1st round pick.

But to the Leafs, that pick is the best chance at solving the issue at center. Centers like that arent available for trade and unless Getzlaf hits the market, they arent UFAs either. (If Burke would even go after Getzlaf who knows)

Gardiner, as good as he is, is not a center. He is a valuable young asset at a position where the Leafs are very strong. Maybe not right away, but down the road.

Burke has been building up this D since he got here, Schenn for JVR was a start, but its time to start moving some D and augmenting Phil Kessel more. We have seen what he can do with top 6 talent.

Also; I think we have to consider the possibility that Kessel not wish to resign here after his contract is up. Unless we start getting him top guys to both take offensive pressure off of him, and take media pressure off of him, I think he will bolt to a strong Southern team where he can dominate offensively with no media presence to be found.

We paid a steep price for him, no doubt, but Kessel is the best asset on the team in my eyes. Most of you probably agree. His scoring ability is world class, but he is not a leader. He is not Mats Sundin. He is Alex Mogilny. Both important to a winning team, but you would never mistake one for the other. Sundin was the face of the team, and the captain, and dealt with the media, Mogilny just scored. If we got someone to be the face of the team offensively then Kessel could be in an ideal role.

how is that pick our best chance of getting a no.1 center if we are making the playoffs? (which if we are trading one of Gardiner or the 2013 1st that is what we are aiming for).

Even if we end up with a top 10 pick not only are we not guaranteed to get a no.1 center (the best player available may be a winger or D-man) but that player may not be NHL ready for up to 5 seasons.

Obviously if I had to choose I would prefer a clear no.1 center or a 1st overall pick over Gardiner but that is not what we have, we have a draft pick of unknown value and if we are trading one of them we are making a serious play for the playoffs.

Other than an awesome top line, that team would suck. I doubt the playoffs would be in the picture, and considering how other teams are improving around us, I think a top 10, maybe even top 5 pick is very possible, with or without Benn.

perhaps but then again even with a 10th overall pick there is no guarantee that the pick turns out better than Gardiner, and considering we wont see what kind of player that is for 3+ years I would not move Gardiner over the 1st unless the return was something dumb like Benn+.

Also that roster can potentially make the playoffs next season. If Reimer breaks his sophomore slump then we are definitely a playoff team and our pick will be in the 15-20 range. It is quite possible.

I agree with stevens. That pick doesn’t become our best chance at solving our center issues (I still believe that lies with Colborne and Kadri but I digress) outside the top 5. So unless you expect a Leafs team with Benn (who would presumably be the top line center fix we are looking for), I fail to see your argument.

Outside top 10, and arguably top 5, its very difficult to get a top line center outside those picks. A player outside the top 10 is much more likely to be nothing than a player already in the NHL who has shown significant potential.

So I can’t agree with you that Gardiner would be better to give up than the 1st round pick.

To Colorado: Kessel, Bozak, D’Amigo (or Blacker the prospect is to cover off the fact Bozak is a UFA pending and for the simple fact, its not a huge loss for the leafs)
To Toronto: Duchene, McGinn, 1st round pick.

Duchene had a rough season last year but has the speed and skill to be a 30 goal man easily. And he plays centre, a position of need for the Leafs.

McGinn is a lot like Kulemin. Solid in all 3 zones. Capable of scoring 20 goals or more. can take the body, be physical.

and arming yourself with a 2nd 1st round pick allows for some flexibility. It could allow them to move their own, but still leaving yourself in the 1st round. It could give the Leafs to top 20 picks in 2013. And its a fairly valuable asset without adding to the 50 contract max.

Losing Kessel of course would be tough, but I think the number of goals Duchene and McGinn could score combined, would be the same as what Kessel and Bozak could produce. Around 50-60 or so goals. probably not as many, but if you consider the addition of JVR, and Kulemin likely improving his numbers, scoring is ok.

But here the Leafs would get stronger on the defensive side. Duchene is good in his own zone. McGinn is good, but the physical play he provides would be real big for the Leafs.

Kessel would give the Avs a gamebreaker. With Stastny and O’Reilly, they were strong at centre. Now with Kessel on the wings to join Landeskog, they could form 2 excellent lines.

They’d still be a young team. And they have size with Jones, Landeskog and Downie as physical players. Kessel gives them a gamebreaker to what is a very well balanced team.

Their lines could be:

Downie-Stastny-Kessel
Landeskog-O’Reilly-Parenteau
Jones-Bozak-Hedjuk

Kessel would stand out offensively, have a top playmaker to play with, but the team would have scoring depth and allow guys to move down the depth chart and slotted more properly.

The players Toronto gets would add more balance IMO to their roster as well.

Their top 3 lines could be:
Lupul-Duchene-JVR
MacArthur-Grabovski-Kulemin
Frattin-McClement-McGinn

very true but as long as GMs aren’t dumb it wont matter. He can only make what people are willing to pay, if they are willing to pay him 8M+ per long term then it is their fault when it comes back against them.

Main reason why I hate the long term deals, the GMs don’t have to suffer the consequences when these deals eventually go bad, they will or should be long gone by then.

Laughable? That’s a bit much I think. He’s only two years removed from an 80 point season, and last year he played at a near 70 point pace on a team that lost its offensive Mojo and had a top line center than played like a tweener for the season (Backstrom was terrible).

Semin at 7 million is totally fine cash. It would be risky past one year but at one year its well worth the investment.

Semin is vastly under rated if people think a one year deal is a bad move at $7 million. This guy could easily put up 30+ goals this year, can play in all situations including PK, can play any position at fwd.

I wanted Semin, and I would’ve given him $7 million for 3 or 4 years. I think the Canes will lock him up at some point, but if not I’d like to have him next season. Not that Burke would ever want Semin.

I also wouldn’t mind adding an extra d-man, if it were Boyle or Bouwmeester, not feeling Hlamarsson as much as before, but wouldn’t hate it.

I think Burke should really be looking at a contingency plan in goal, and he should consider Dan Ellis. Doesn’t solve anything but Ellis is a quality back up capable of handling a big work load. He could take the heat off Reimer a bit.

I remember saying last year Ellis is worth considering, like you said capable of taking over for long stretchs if need be. I like Backstrom, but not sure he would be cheap or re-sign with us, but a quality netminder for sure. a few other options for us are Chris Mason who has worked with Pavelic and I wouldn’t hate seeing Huet brought in on a tryout basis.

I saw Huet’s name on a UFA list as well, but can’t find any stats on him since 2010. I’m not sure if or where he played the last two years. Although he should’ve played because the loan to Europe is the only reason Chicago got him off the cap.

I like the deal for Benn proposed by LN91. I think they should go after Bouwmeester regardless of what they decide to do in net. He can eat minutes, and with the loss of Schenn we could use a physical guy like that to help phaneuf.

Ya they were just depth signings so guys like Blacker, Oleksiak and Rielly could develop more. I couldn’t think of any other free agent defenceman besides Kubina and Colaiacovo, and I doubt they’re Leafs any time soon.

I hear you. Could try to get some life out of a vet like Colin White or Scott Hannan. Huskins is okay, Mike Commodore, Milan Jurcina, Radek Martinek on a 1-year deal would be okay, Campoli can play. Colaiacovo, Kubina, and Roszival are probably the best available.

Eminger fits in with most of that group, but I lean towards more established vets for those roles, personal preference I guess.

What is with soo you leaf fans and having some kind of fetish for brother combos….

Jordie benn is the older less talented brother… He’s hardly a strong prospect… 25 year old… Isn’t a stand out offensively… Is a minus player…. Not a small guy but not huge…. Undrafted…. Never played CHL…. Likely not going to stick at an NHL job….. And definitely wouldn’t get a place on the leafs d roster…. Too many better prospects…

The only thing I can see is the “fetish” aspect of having brothers in the organization.

But the fact Burke is American himself and very blatant about what kind of stylistic players he likes its not hard to connect the dots… He has a strong reliance on the ushl and the development program and while he obviously won’t discriminate against other nationalities his criterion outlines that either American or Canadian born players are preferred…. Again this is based off his style preference.

Now keep in mind this doesn’t exclude euros or others but players like ladeskog, kulimen, kronwall, these types, are rather the exception to the rule…..

It’s just fairly clear Burke has a preference, and he handicaps himself slightly SOMETIMES

8 Americans in the current 23 man roster and 7 in the system of 43 listed players (all taken from the mapleleafs.nhl.com ).

So that works out to just under 35% of the roster and just over 16% in the system that are born in the USA. The NHL average (as of last year) is 24% American. So we have ~2.5 more Americans on the roster than average and slightly less than 3.5 less in the system than average (although compared to the NHL, not prospect pools, but I think it is safe to assume that they are similar numbers for well represented nationalities).

Doesn’t seem very pronounced to me.

Furthermore, even if there was some bias Burke was basing decisions on, what of it? Detroit has 7 Swedes on the roster, or (redwings.nhl.com) 30% of the team, which is well over the league average of just under 7%.

Please don’t respond with more anecdotal evidence that doesn’t answer my original question.

USNDP not exactly but Biggs, d’amigo and Ryan were picked. he does love his college guys like the Habs.

camerasi, toninato, everson, Robertson are collegians but throw in bozak, Hanson, Irwin, brenner, Abbott, gysbers, colborne, scrivens and others and it’s safe to say he likes his college guys like he was.

But clearly, we’re most excited about the CHL guys. Kadri, Ross, mckegg, Percy, Finn, Reilly, blacker. I’d prefer he focus there. The chl is tremendous. But it’s the leafs disease/jeff ware effect that makes us not want to go there

I’m glad this fucking bigot isn’t going to play in the NHL next year, and hopefully never again. I’m sure this turd is planning on getting into tea-baggin politics, and I certainly hope he fails miserably at that. Fuck Tim Thomas.

Well Thomas is on the “greater evil” side of the “lesser vs greater political evils”…. Democrats vs republicans….. He chooses to be opinionated and out-going about his stances. He has that right even though he’s confused about what all politics stand for to begin with. Fuck him indeed.

Well it carries some hockey weight, but yeah, I’ll drop it. Though I will point out that I have no problem with him affiliating himself politically. I have a problem with him defending the abhorrent opinion of an organization. Just indicates to me that he is so passionate about denying rights to gays that he feels the need to make it public (and yes, Facebook is public, ESPECIALLY if you’re a celebrity).

he shouldn’t have said anything, period. You can believe what you want but if you hate a specific people for any reason (sexual orientation, religious background, etc, etc, etc) you cannot and should not be public about it like this, especially if you are a celebrity.

The only thing that can come from being this open about this stance is more retarded gay-bashing and more destruction of people’s rights. Sexism and racism are illegal, gay-bashing should be too.

No difference between saying a gay can’t get married and saying that an African-American or a woman can’t vote. Same thing.

Sorry for being political about it but my point is any respect I got for Thomas is now gone. Refusing to go to the White House is one thing, who gives a shit? But this is clear prejudice based on nothing (remember that owning women and slaves were “rights given by God” according to Thomas’ beliefs 100 years ago, if that was wrong then this is wrong now. Period.).

Josh is right. I don’t necessarily agree with everything Tim Thomas has to say, but I like him. He has opinions and he’s not afraid to share them. If you guys don’t Luke him for it I’m sure it doesn’t bother Timmy, who knows he’s being vocal about a controversial issue, and I’m sure expects some disagreement.

Again, I don’t agree with him, gays can do whatever they want, it doesn’t affect me one way or another. I believe in the Wu Wei, things just are, they are neither good nor bad, its all a matter of perception. Having said that, there are always two sides to every equation and I can see some merit in not wanting gays to marry for someone with strong religious views. Not right, but I can see why some people could get upset over such an issue.

fact is a country cannot base their rules on someone’s personal beliefs. If the majority of the USA or Canada believed that we should bring back slavery then should we? Or better yet if they choose to own a slave due to their political or religious belief should they be allowed to? (not better but well you get the point)

Fact is if you want to ban Christian Marriages for gay people then the country has to allow those gay people to get married in city hall and those nations should not give these organizations tax breaks or whatever, you wanna live and make money here then follow our rules, if you don’t you get no special treatment. No state or nation should be allowed to ban gay marriage, it is an equivalent to racism, period.

Thing is most people if you asked them whether or not the guys during the Civil war that were fighting to keep their slaves were racist or not they would say they were racist (even though at the time it was completely acceptable to own a slave, or a woman for that matter).

It should be the same now, you are a “racist” if you believe gays should not have the exact same rights as you. Period, I don’t care what the laws say. Some country’s laws say it is ok to own, beat, and rape their women is that ok just because the nation believes it and enforces it? No it is not.

Equal rights for all, do whatever the fuck you want. (as long as you don’t infringe on someone else’s rights).

I’m with you. The counter argument is that marriage is a religious experience, however in todays society there are many different interpretations of marriage that that argument doesn’t hold much ground. However, if some people feel strongly against gay marriage I still say that’s their right. I hold no judgement to Thomas. I respect that he’s outspoken, you have to wonder how many people feel strongly about such a controversial issue but don’t have the balls to say anything. Respect.

funny thing is marriage was originally a tool used for the transfer of property (i.e: Women).

Ignoring all that if you want to allow religions to be pricks like that it is fine (we do allow the KKK to do what they want as long as they don’t infringe on people’s rights or hurt anyone) but the problem is the gay marriage argument IS infringing on people’s rights. Some free states are still banning something every person has the right to.

Our governments have only 2 options:

1) no bans on gay marriage. All marriage is allowed between any 2 people. Same immigrant policies and other stuff like that can still apply.

2) All “marriage contracts” are officially abolished. Every marriage contract is hereby converted to a civil union or partnership contract, whatever you want to call it, they will have no ties to any religious organization and because of this there is no valid argument other than hate and racism for the ban.

Any person who gets married through a religious organization is given with it a civil union contract for legal purposes. Churches can ban any and all marriages they want because even if they do every free citizen can still get “married” at city hall, etc.

Problem solved. Of course because of all the prejudice and racism out there this will never happen. Even though it is a great compromise for all the haters out there. lol.

I believe, Steve, in what you’re saying and I imagine we are headed in that direction.

However, if people disagree with me then who am I to say what’s “right and wrong”. Everything is gray, not black or white. Everything is up for debate to a degree.

Just being devils advocate. But again, my overall point is that I with hold judgement on Thomas. The guy could he a great father for all we know, and I’m sure he has his good qualities too.

Politics aside, this is a man I respect who demonstrated incredible preserverence and dedication, playing in Europe after not getting work in North America. He honed his craft and rose in his late 30’s to become a superstar, winning 2 Vezinas, a Cup, and taking home the Conn Smythe.

I believe that Tim Thomas has a ton if character. He’s interesting, has something to say, and he rattles the cages. I don’t agree with him, but I respect him.

First, sorry for instigating this debate here, but it is an important one, so why not have it, right?

Now you say respect to Thomas for speaking his mind. Well I could take the obvious extreme and say a certain guy with a tiny mustache was more than happy to speak his mind in the 1930s-1945, but there are innumerable other examples. There is a difference in standing up for what you believe in and standing up for something that is wrong.

Now saying that it is wrong is hard, because as you say really noting is black and white. All morality and human philosophy is constructed and highly subjective. That being said, we have agreed on certain principles, such as equality and non discrimination based on traits that one does not choose. Without getting into a nature v nurture debate, Thomas choose to think gays should be afforded less rights, gays don’t choose to be so, it is genetic.

Finally, marriage is more than just the right to wear a ring and have a big party. If your partner is in a horrible accident and only family can see them, that will exclude you if you’re gay and your rights are not recognized. If you live in the US and your partner has no health insurance and yours can’t cover them because you aren’t married you can get pretty fuck over. Tax breaks, social perceptions, the list goes on. Fact is opposing gay marriage in oppression and an affront to human rights and equality. Furthermore allowing gay marriage would affect Thomas (or anyone else) in NO WAY WHATSOEVER; which indicated to me that it is simply denying someone rights for the sake of.. well, I don’t know, maybe because you don’t like what they are. For me this argument is not “I hate gay” marriage, it’s “I hate gays” but veiled in the form of an assault on action and freedom because attacking the individuals for what they are has become socially unacceptable.

TLDR: You can’t credit someone for upholding clearly abhorrent positions. There is no reason to oppose gay marriage other than opposing gay, which I wholly and utterly wrong.

Fuck Thomas, I fully equate opposition to gay marriage as bigotry: Hating someone for someone for something they are. Hatred and ignorance have no place in our society and must be attacked, not applauded.

Yeah, but I appreciate it… There is a place for everything. Without evil, what is good? Without ugly, what is beautiful, etc.

Thomas view points don’t hurt anyone. If gays can’t marry it only hurts in a way that has been constructed in the mind because of the conventions of society. Marriage is meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

Actions make a man, not words. And if the world is inherently good, not evil, then Thomas’ kids, and the kids of many of the Tim Thomas’s out there will have a different, more educated point of view.

you completely believe in free speech based on your posts and that is really great, not for a second denying that, but I have a question for you mojo:

Would you say you respect a man in the KKK for standing up for his beliefs in a very similar way Thomas did?

I believe what Thomas did is no different than a KKK member (doesn’t have to be a KKK member technically) posting on his facebook that he supports someone or some organization that wants to prevent blacks from whatever lets say marrying white people.

Thomas’ beliefs are his choice, personally after finding out just how republican he was I had a feeling this is what he believed but being a public idol like this he should not have went public with it, makes him look like a tool IMO.

Well I think the kkk and gay marriage are not on the same level. I think, generally if someone is willfully part of a hate group they are a bad person. However, I believe that a lot of good, albeit ignorant people are against gay marriage for the wrong reasons.

I actually did read your post Joel, but unfortunately at 6am I didn’t do a well enough job to illustrate that in my response.

Allow me to elaborate. When I said that people were inherently good (hopefully), I was saying this because I do believe that our world is flushing out this kind of evil. And when i say that I with hold judgement on Tim its because his ignorance is the cause of his hate, possibly stemming from his upbringing… However i don’t believe this makes a bad person at the core, and he (or whomever) could still raise kids with good morals, who will be better than their parents.

Also I think the majority of people are in favour of gay marriage, so he’s in the minority. He’s in the minority, soon to be less with every generation, as we continue to evolve. The oppression if gay people will give them more reason to celebrate their triumphs. Experiencing lows will allow them to appreciate their highs… And yes I can always fall back on the Wu Wei, because that’s all it is baby.

Sorry guys, but I’m a glass half full kind of guy, so I don’t get worked up about the negatives, I know the positives will prevail. Having said that, it is important to have people like you who will speak out for what’s right…and you guys need the Tim Thomas’ of the world to speak out against. This is the harmony, its all necessary. As long as there are people there will be some kind of unfair advantages in society, and there will always be such debates.

Hopefully I was clearer and hopefully you can appreciate where i stand, I would for you to think I am in favour of hate, I’m not.

Mojo, thanks for the response, your position is much more clear now and I think our opinions are pretty close. I suppose the only issue I took with your original position was the nature of what Thomas said and why. As Steve correctly pointed out, I am a huge proponent of free speech.

To paraphrase a much greater man, though I hate what he says I would defend, with my life, his right to say it. My whole point was that we need to recognize that his sentiments reflect a hateful attitude directed towards a specific group. That I find abhorrent, and though I’m fine with him saying it, I’m not fine with people defending it or letting it slide.

Theses types of attitudes are negative in every way. Though, I do get where you coming from, Scott, with the balance and zen approach; however, I feel that there are certain things that need to be combated. There are plenty of political nuances that could be argued successfully from contradictory positions, but hatred of others is, IMO, always wrong, especially when the basis for the hate is an ascribes characteristic, like skin colour or sexuality.

Wu Wei may be interpreted as a form of pacifism through non-action. Though I consider myself to be a pacifist, there are certain things that I believe to be absolutely intolerable, and discrimination based on sexual orientation is absolutely one of those.

solid offer but IMO you have to switch either Read or Laughton to Couturier to get that deal done.

Gotta love the Flyers right now though, they are looking more and more like my favorite American team. I love these active and ballsy teams, especially when half their roster is filled with players I want on Toronto. lol.

as for Holmgren being ballsy, well, i think there, Ed Snider is in control even if the team is owned by Comcast.

Holmgren is a phonecall/text from getting stuff done. His budget is the cap max.

He’d obviously have to discuss deals like the Weber contract, and the contracts he gave Carter and Richards. Those are mega rich.

But i think he doesn’t need permission to do anything. He just runs it by Snider who knows well enough to let the hockey guys do their thing.

I think he just sends Snider a text saying I’m doing this. and Snider quickly responds. No need for lengthy, drawn out sessions to go over all the pieces of evidence.

Like for Weber, i think he had to discuss the payment, but i think he was like, im offer sheeting him now. He doesnt have to deal with a bunch of suits who want to have a lengthy discussion of all the merits and demerits of doing this. And he has no worries of ensuring he doesn’t offend anyone doing so.

I think in Toronto, Burke has less autonomy than we think he has.

I dont know if he has to run every trade past the board for approval like Ferguson had to, but, if say he wanted to add the $5 mil multi-year contract Ryan has to today’s payroll, he needs to get board approval. Definitely money is what he needs to gain approval for. And its any money, from paying Mike Brown and signing Keith Aucoin, to signing Mike Komisarek.

Since it is still a 7 man group, they have to gather, have a meeting or meetings, and Burke needs to present the case for spending the extra dough.

I think this is why he has said here in Toronto he hates the trade deadline and making moves there (and why he likes to do it well b4), and hates July 1st because you have to sign now, ask questions later. (and probably the other things, like offer sheets, the long contracts etc.)

I don’t think at all the board will let him do that. The process is to make his case, and prove it to the board it is a worthy investment.

The board can’t get together quick enough for say a trade deadline deal, or free agent signing. I think Burke needs to have several meetings beforehand to present his cases on what he’d like to spend, what he like to do and so forth. I think he probably did that in previous years, or Peddie did that for him and allowed Burke some extra cash to work with.

Honestly, i sympathise with Burke if he is sick of doing that. And now he is alone without Peddie. I think he had enough of begging, borrowing and stealing and bargaining for an extra quarter to spend or simply talking to the suits period. Its why he was pretty adamant over no free agency this time around.

I honestly think he didn’t want the headache. While i’ve railed on him all summer, this i can relate to and understand the inactivity. dealing with the board is probably like trying to pull a splinter out. Painful. I bet its gotten worse without Peddie around who was a big Burke supporter. Tanenbaum is a meddler, moreso than Peddie. and a flaming idiot.

I think this has to explain the inactivity and how things have gone in the Burke era. Burke was not like this in Anaheim, Vancouver or even Hartford. He was aggressive. He was cut throat. He was rogue. He was a pirate.

Here he’s had to be extra patient, conservative, very deliberate and he’s had to be most conscious of perception.

The Leafs organization has always been perched on its high horse. Its always had to be the moral conscious of the league, the role model for all.

They are the ones who have to balance out everyone else in terms of the craziness. They are the ones who need to do “the right thing” every time.

Have you ever noticed how the Leafs never have been off their rocker doing anything? they’ve made silly moves, but not sign Weber for $110 million silly. Never to do something and forgetting consequences.

They have so much cash they could support 10 NHL teams. Even the Rangers or Flyers couldnt do that.

But I don’t think the leafs will veer of the path or righteousness. They will offer competitive contracts, they will spend for the sake of looking like they spend to ensure they’re perceived as deep-pocketed rich folk, and they will constantly look busy without accomplishing a whole lot.

Burke has had to comply. I think he has been not great because all this shit thrown him off. Being an employee, like most of us, i totally get that.

I like everyone was pretty stoked when Burke was brought in. I saw the body of work he did in Anaheim and Vancouver (less the Dan Cloutier debacle).

I remember him on the draft floor causing chaos with Pronger and the Sedins.

I remember him seeing Pronger available from Edmonton and going all in, no hesitation, no second guessing, no deliberating, no needing to be knighted before doing anything of consequence.

He was a freakin’ bull. Now he’s nothing.

I swear, the backlash from the Kessel trade probably screwed him. Probably brought the board back into play.

“we can’t have that kind of negativity here no sir. this clearly was a poor investment if so many others feel so badly about it. we best be careful now. lets be sure we’re involved with everything going on from now on”

I’m obviously not sure if that’s true, but its the only logical explanation i have.

Because like i said, i’ve been railing on Burke for a while now. But still, there’s just no way he can become that poor of a manager in such a short time. Be so stupid with the things he does, the things he says. Be such a repeatable failure.

There is no person alive who’d be able to do what is necessary to make the Leafs a winner.

Only an owner, a sole owner, with full control of the team, who would allow the hockey people to do their jobs, can save this team. IMO.

You may have a point here, I just find it somewhat amusing that all of Burke’s best moves as Leafs GM have come after the Kessel trade. So maybe the board’s input is a good thing.

The Phaneuf, Kaberle, Lupul, Franson and JVR (I think this will turn out best of all of them) trades all came after the Kessel trade.

Personally, I have gotten over the Kessel trade. I view it like this; Yes the Leafs would have been better off with what would have been two consecutive top 5 picks. But, Kessel is undeniably a great talent and certainly one to hang on to.

If Burke can salvage this season somehow and keep his job, then he HAS to make a massive pitch for Perry and Getzlaf, should they make it to UFA. If he does, then all of the past seasons of inactivity on July 1st can be forgiven, and even praised.

There is no evidence to support this at all this sounds more like you over analyzing the situation. The board isn’t barely assembled yet and Rogers/Bell have so much more important things to hammer out to then to meddle with the GM and presidents affairs.

They authorize the Leafs to be a cap team every year, Burke doesn’t have to wait for a board meeting to sign an FA to 5 million that’s rediculous. Last off-season once Richards was gone he quickly rolled the dice on Connolly. He’s put millions of dollars in the minors. Your theory seems downright silly to me.

More likely to me is a couple of things. One Burke is stubborn as hell, he will stick to his morals for better or worse. Also worth noting is what’s happening behind the scenes. Since the death of his son it has seemed more and more like Burke is moving to the role of President with Nonis handling more of the GM duties.

Matches Nonis more conservative style. Look not further than Burke constantly being either at other events or overseas on very important off season dates like July 1st.

He’s surrounded himself with a management team and the conservative grow approach reeks of Nonis’ influence.

So then blaze, not saying youre wrong, but why, for example is Burke “against” long term deals? Why couldn’t we offer Brad Richards the front loaded, ling term deal it would have took to lure him?

I like this meddling, interfering ownership conspiracy. I think there could be something to it. Maybe not 100% accurate, but to think that ownership is stepping in a little would make some sense. Why does Burke hate the deadline?

Long term potential for problems. That’s why he’s against it. I don’t think it has anything to do with meddling.

I think blaze makes a great point. This looks a lot like Nonis is starting to really take over the entire team. He’s more conservative in his approach but pulls off trades still (and damn good ones). Burke still sticks his hand in the cookie jar though and stubbornly refuses to let Nonis institute some things: ie – long term contracts.