1 (10.30 a.m.) 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton and Mr Irving, before we start 3today, I wonder if I can hand to you now a list of 4issues? 5MR IRVING: Yes. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think I did mention earlier that it might 7be helpful -- it is up to both of you -- if we could 8perhaps take the issues in more or less the order in which 9I have set them out, if that is not inconvenient? I also 10want to make sure that I have got everything in that 11I need to cover, and that I have not included things that 12really are no longer live issues. Do not take time with 13it now. 14MR RAMPTON: No, I will not. There is one item in (i) of four 15which is still to come today from Evans, which will need 16to be added. 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. It is just that either at a later stage 18today, or perhaps tomorrow, it might be worth spending a 19few minutes just going through that. 20MR RAMPTON: I do not think I will finish my cross-examination 21today. 22MR IRVING: That is very useful, my Lord. There are four or 23five minor points that I wish to raise before Mr Rampton 24resumes. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. 26MR IRVING: The first point is that I have repeatedly asked the

. P-2

1Defence to provide me with the speeches, the transcripts 2on disk, most recently about 10 days ago by letter. It 3would obviously assist me in responding to and rebutting 4these juicy morsels that they are tossed out of their cage 5into the courtroom, like yesterday. If I had such a thing 6on disk, and I am entitled to it of course under the 7rules, once the documents have been pleaded, I am entitled 8to have them in digital form. There is no reason for this 9delay other than a deliberate and wilful attempt to impede 10my response. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: So that I am clear what you are asking for, 12is it a disk containing the speeches that you have made 13that the Defendants rely on? 14MR IRVING: No, it is a disk containing the transcripts. They 15are put into court by way of their pleadings in evidence. 16Obviously it exists in digital form. It is no great 17burden on them. It is five minutes work to do, just 18pressing one button. They could have done this 10 days 19ago, if not, indeed, when I first asked for them. 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: It does not sound an unreasonable request. 21MR RAMPTON: I have no idea. I do not deal in disks, I am 22afraid. I deal in paper. I will pass on that request. 23I am surprised it has not been responded to. If it is 24anybody's fault, I apologise for it on their behalf. If 25these transcripts -- and I think Mr Irving means the 26transcripts that are in the K files ----

. P-3

1MR IRVING: Yes. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, which is racism, anti-Semitism, or 3allegedly so. 4MR RAMPTON: -- which are mostly his own words. If they are on 5a disk, which I imagine they must be, then by all means, 6if it is easier. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think I know they are on disk because I am 8not -- well, anyway, if it can be done, it should be done 9soon because Mr Irving needs it. 10MR RAMPTON: If it is possible, it should be done before the 11weekend. 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: Before the weekend, I agree, yes. 13MR IRVING: A not unrelated matter is that the Defence 14solicitors are still sitting on a number of my microfilms 15and papers. They keep promising to return them. When 16they returned my previous boxes of papers, they returned 17them in a totally disheveled state, which has not assisted 18me ---- 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is something I do not really want to get 20into now. Raise that, but perhaps at a later stage. 21MR IRVING: The third point, my Lord, is the Eichmann 22manuscripts. I gave the undertaking which your Lordship 23very properly required. The manuscript has now been 24placed in the public domain. It is on, for example, the 25website of Der Spiegel and elsewhere. I would ask that 26the undertaking which I gave should now be rescinded or

. P-4

1annulled, if Mr Rampton has no objection, in order that I 2am not---- 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: I suspect he may not really know the score on 4that. 5MR RAMPTON: I do not know the score. I am told that that 6version, which is the electronic version, that came to us 7from the Israeli Government cannot be used for any purpose 8but this trial. If it is on some website or other, then 9perhaps we can have our disk back so we can give it back 10to the Israeli Government, and people can use the public 11domain copy. 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well ... 13MR IRVING: Without wanting to compare the public domain 14version word for word with the version given to me, I see 15that it has been published in the Guardian yesterday, for 16example. 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have seen reports which make it appear that 18you may be right. 19MR IRVING: Having given the undertaking ---- 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: What I am not in a position to judge is 21whether the whole of it is in now in the public domain. 22If the whole of it is, then it seems to me that you should 23be released from your, undertaking, but I am not going to 24release you now. I do not think this is really in a way 25Mr Rampton's problem. 26MR RAMPTON: My problem is that I am merely the conduit pipe

. P-5

1for this material. I gave my own personal undertaking in 2order to get the material released; I do not really feel I 3can break it. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: To save time, what I am inclined to say is 5this. It does appear to me that there is good reason for 6supposing that it is in the public domain. If that be 7right, I do not see it is realistic to maintain the 8undertaking. I am therefore inclined to think it should 9be lifted, but I would like to give an opportunity to 10whoever it may be to make representations, whether through 11you or in some other way. 12MR IRVING: I do not want to be held in contempt. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Of course you do not, but the undertaking 14will stay until tomorrow morning. If somebody tomorrow 15morning wants to say that the undertaking should remain in 16place, I will hear argument then. 17MR IRVING: My Lord, tomorrow is Friday. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: I know, but I suspect your cross-examination 19is going to continue until tomorrow. 20MR RAMPTON: I do not know that there is going to be any 21difficulty at all. The only difficulty I can see, and it 22is mere conjecture, is that there may be parts of the 23electronic version which has been given to Mr Irving for 24the purposes of this case and no other purpose. There may 25be parts of that which are not in the copy which has been 26released.

. P-6

1MR JUSTICE GRAY: That may be. 2MR RAMPTON: -- in which case I would have to maintain my 3position so far as those other parts are concerned. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am bound to say I am not sure that 5I understand why the Eichmann diaries are relevant 6because, if they were not, and they by definition were 7not, available to Mr Irving, I am not sure how they can be 8used by way of criticism. 9MR RAMPTON: I may say I rather agree with that. It is not my 10intention contention today at any rate to make any 11reference to them in this court. The fact is they do 12contain, as anybody can see if they read the public 13report, some statements made in 1960 something which, if 14reliable, demolish Holocaust denial really at one fell 15swoop, but so what. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: I can see that there is a way in which they 17could be capable of being used in this trial, but I will 18leave you to take whatever course you think is right. 19MR RAMPTON: My present inclination, I am not saying it is the 20final inclination, is that this is something for the 21historians to argue about, rather than the lawyers in this 22court, but I will reserve my position for the present at 23least, if I may. I do not know, Mr Irving may have 24further things? 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think there is one other point. 26MR IRVING: There are two other points, my Lord. One is the

. P-7

1video of the Halle meeting on 9th November 1991. I wish 2to make submissions to your Lordship next week about the 3admissibility of that video, because it was the subject of 4a bitter dispute between myself and the instructing 5solicitors for the Defendants. It was a matter of 6withheld discovery, fraudulently withheld discovery. In 7fact, I was reminded of this by the OSS this morning. 8I put a complaint into the OSS over undertakings broken by 9the solicitors, and so on. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Who are the OSS? 11MR IRVING: Offices for the Supervision of Solicitors in 12Leamington Spa; a rather toothless body which watches over 13malfunctions by solicitors. So I would like permission to 14make a submission about the admissibility of the video as 15such. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Do that when you like. In some ways it 17ought to be perhaps done sooner rather than later. 18MR IRVING: I had prepared a little bundle on this many, many 19weeks ago and I was just reminded of this actual matter 20this morning by this phone call from the OSS. 21 The final matter is the little bundle I put 22before your Lordship headed "Documents on Mr Irving's 1991 23arrest". 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. 25MR IRVING: This is the Lowenbraukeller meeting. It is a 26matter of my truthfulness, whether I am right or whether

. P-8

1the Defence submissions are correct, namely that I was a 2participant in an illegal demonstration or not. These are 3three or four documents on the police file which contain 4the statement that was made at the time of arrest and so 5on, which I have summarised in the two-page translation at 6this beginning. Either your Lordship can say now that you 7attach no importance to the issue of the submissions made 8yesterday as to whether I was telling the truth or not. 9It bulked quite large in the cross-examination but your 10Lordship may very well say you attach no importance to it. 11If your Lordship does attach importance to it, then 12I would ask permission to put these documents to Professor 13Funke, who is in the court this morning. 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think it matters a row of beans 15whether it was an illegal demonstration, or whether it was 16not. 17MR IRVING: I agree, my Lord. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: The relevance, as it appears to me ---- 19MR IRVING: The question is my truthfulness. 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: -- is simply whether you did either 21participate in, or in some other way associate yourself 22with, the demonstration that one sees on the video. 23MR IRVING: I appreciate that point, my Lord, but the other 24point is my truthfulness. If I state something which is 25then disbelieved by the Defence and they maintain their 26position despite my several invitations to accept that

. P-9

1they are wrong, and here are the documents that clearly 2show from the police files that I am right, namely what 3time it was, the fact that it was an hour after the 4function in the Lowenbraukeller ended that I was 5apprehended, the fact that we were heading northwards, so 6to speak ---- 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: What I am going to do, subject to Mr Rampton, 8is -- I do not know whether he is going to cross-examine 9you about this? 10MR RAMPTON: No. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think there is any reason -- I do 12not think it has anything do with Professor Funke. He was 13not there. I do not see any reason why you should not 14very shortly, as it were, put this in evidence through 15your own mouth, as it were, or indeed by way of 16submission, I do not mind. 17MR IRVING: Very well. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: That can be done either straightaway or it 19can be done later on. Mr Rampton, I do not know whether 20you are going to touch on this in cross-examination? 21MR RAMPTON: No. For the most part, right-wing extremism to my 22way of thing, has been done and dusted. I have very 23little cross-examination left on that, and it certainly 24does not concern Germany. As to these new document, I am 25completely neutral because I do not know what they say. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: That suggests to me that probably this ought

. P-10

1to be done at a later stage. 2MR IRVING: By way of submission. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Perhaps first thing tomorrow or at the end of 4cross-examination tomorrow, if we go into tomorrow. 5MR RAMPTON: I will need to have them looked at by German 6speakers in the usual way. 7MR IRVING: There are two or three more letters from me to 8German Embassies and people like that, which show that 9I went about things in a perfectly proper way, asking 10whether the bodies that invited me to speak were legal and 11lawful and constitutional and so on. 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: We do not want to get disproportionate about 13it. 14MR RAMPTON: I would only say this about that kind of material, 15whether it advances the matter one way or another, I 16rather doubt, but self-serving protests by Mr Irving are 17not evidence that it did not happen. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: I appreciate that. 19MR IRVING: I did not catch that, but it is my veracity which 20I am concerned about that. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. You are obviously concerned about that. 22I have indicated the way I think we ought to deal with it 23so we will leave it until tomorrow. That concludes the 24points you wanted to raise? 25MR IRVING: Yes. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think the next step is for you to go into

. P-11

1the witness box, please. You are obviously still under 2oath. 3MR RAMPTON: My Lord, before I start, I announce the first 4thing, if I may, that I am going to do. Your Lordship 5will remember the short sequence we had from the 6negationists, or whatever you call it, meeting at Hagenau 7in Azas in November 1989, and the reference to the sedan 8chair and the telephone box. What I am now going to do, 9with your Lordship's leave, is show a short section from a 10speech that Mr Irving made at Milton, Ontario, on 5th 11October 1991, that is to say almost two years after the 12Hagenau event. Its transcript is at K3, tab 10. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is this what is called the Moers speech? 14MR RAMPTON: No, it is not Moers. This is Milton, Ontario, 15which I think is in Canada. It is more of the same. Then 16I shall ask Mr Irving some questions about it in the light 17of the questions he asked Professor Funke yesterday. 18< Mr Irving, recalled.19< Cross-Examined by Mr Rampton QC continued.20MR RAMPTON: My Lord, I think the relevant part of the 21transcript is pages 17 and 18. Have I got that right? 22The television seems to be defunct. 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do we need to start with this, Mr Rampton? 24MR RAMPTON: It is a question of continuity, and it is fresh in 25everybody's mind from yesterday. I find it difficult to 26cross-examine with the witness box overrun by

. P-12

1technicians! 2(Video played) 3MR RAMPTON: Stop there, thank you. Mr Irving, that is the 4same story in a rather more expanded version that you told 5to your audience at Hagenau in November 1989, is it not? 6A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Where does it come from? 8A.
[Mr Irving]
There are -- which ones are you talking about? The 9conveyor belts, the swimming pool, the electric shock that 10comes from Pravda, February 1945? 11Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, Mr Irving. 12A.
[Mr Irving]
There is a whole bundle of these, there is a whole series 13of these eyewitness accounts which have been given in 14various postwar trials, 1945, 1946, 1947. These are the 15accounts that are not quoted by the Holocaust historians 16for obvious reasons. 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Where did the telephone box come from? 18A.
[Mr Irving]
Which part of the story are you asking for, about the box, 19the one man ---- 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Telephone box. 21MR RAMPTON: The telephone box? 22A.
[Mr Irving]
The telephone box? 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
The telephone box. "Well, the answer is", says Irving, 24"it is disguised as a telephone box, this one man gas 25chamber. This is the mentality of the people who invent 26these eyewitness stories. It is a disguised as a

. P-13

1telephone and if I am a man who has escaped from 2Auschwitz, a harrowing experience, and I am standing 3around in the Polish countryside and suddenly a telephone 4box" ---- 5A.
[Mr Irving]
Appears from nowhere, yes. 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
--- "where there was not one a few minutes ago and two 7German soldiers standing around looking like nothing, 8nothing is going to get me inside that phone box. The 9eyewitnesses, plural, say they got you to get inside by 10having the phone inside ringing". Where does that little 11anecdote come from? How many sources? 12A.
[Mr Irving]
The phone ringing is an embellishment. But the disguised 13as a telephone box is in the eyewitness account. 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
How many eyewitness accounts and who were the people that 15told those stories? 16A.
[Mr Irving]
Alleged survivors of Auschwitz. 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
How many? 18A.
[Mr Irving]
Certainly one account. 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Eyewitnesses, plural? 20A.
[Mr Irving]
That, obviously, is a slip of the tongue. 21Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, it is not. It is a deliberate exaggeration, is it? 22You got some good laughs with this little story? 23A.
[Mr Irving]
I think it is such a ludicrous story and it so clearly 24exaggerates the problem, it so clearly illustrates the 25problem with the eyewitness accounts of Auschwitz ---- 26Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Oh, really?

. P-14

1A.
[Mr Irving]
--- this and the other similar accounts. There is the 2conveyor belt, there is the swimming pool, there is the 3electric shock, there is the killed in steam chambers, all 4these stories which come out of the earlier accounts, if 5you read the account published by Pravda, I think on 6February 2nd 1945, there is the first description of the 7conveyor belt. These are never quoted by the modern 8historians. Even the Gerstein report that you have which 9is an alleged eyewitness account had, of course, 130 foot 10high mountain of shoes. These details need to be brought 11to the attention of the public so they can see what the 12problem is and how selectively the historians use the 13eyewitness accounts. They take the ones that they like 14and they ignore the ones that are obviously baloney. 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, do you see any purpose in a serious historian, 16I mean a serious, reputable historian, reciting simply for 17the purpose of knocking it over, a story, if it indeed is 18a story, which is quite obviously untrue? 19A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, as we have heard in this court, Mr Rampton, the 20factory of death story, as far as crematorium (ii) in 21Auschwitz is concerned, relies on three legs, it is a 22stool with three legs, one is the eyewitnesses, one is the 23discrepancies between the blueprints or the architectural 24drawings and the other one is the German documentation. 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Quite a lot more than that. 26A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, you will have time to say that when you make your

. P-15

1closing speech. If the eyewitnesses turn out to be partly 2baloney, and they are a body of evidence that, in my 3opinion, should, therefore, be discounted, I am entitled 4to make this point as forcefully as I can by drawing 5attention to the ludicrous elements contained by some of 6the eyewitness accounts. 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Did you tell this audience about the evidence, the 8eyewitness testimony, of Henrich Tauber, for example? 9A.
[Mr Irving]
Probably at that time it was not known to me, but I would 10certainly have done so and I would have drawn attention to 11the discrepancies in his account as well. 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Why do you think your audience in Milton, Ontario, find 13these little anecdotes, fables, if you like, so funny? 14A.
[Mr Irving]
There are two ways of addressing an audience. One is in 15an academic climate where you are enveloped in professors' 16robes and speaking to students who have no obligation but 17to sit there with their notepads on their lap, and then 18you can dictate to them all the documents and all the 19material you want until the bell rings and it is time for 20them to go out. 21 The other way is to make or deliver a talk or a 22lecture in such a manner that you capture and hold your 23audience's attention, and you do that repeatedly by 24interlacing the serious documents that you want them to 25listen to with material to keep them awake, if I can put 26it like that.

. P-16

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
How long, is it, Mr Irving, since any, if ever, reputable 2historian has paid any attention whatsoever to this kind 3of material? 4A.
[Mr Irving]
I would say within living memory shall we say within four 5weeks in this very courtroom we have listened to account 6after account from Professor van Pelt who relies on Ade 7Bimco, who relies on Henrich Tauber, who has relied on 8five or six eyewitness, all of whom have elements of total 9distortion. Ludicrous elements. For example, the 10Gerstein report. Ludicrous elements contained in their -- 11Christopher Brown, he had to put back into the Gerstein 12report the stuff that he had omitted, the mountains of 13shoes and shirts, and these ludicrous elements which 14disqualify the eyewitness from any source value 15whatsoever, just as they disqualified finally 16the allegation that there were gas chambers in Dachau. 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Like your old chum Karl Wolff, for example? 18A.
[Mr Irving]
I have never met Karl Wolff in my life except once when he 19was pushed under my nose by a Sunday Times cameraman at a 20function in Schattenburg. 21Q.
[Mr Rampton]
An eyewitness in some sense to the events in this part of 22German history, would you agree? 23A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, I do not understand. What is the question? 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You rely on him to exculpate Hitler, so far as the 25conversation, reported conversation, between him and 26Himmler in August 1942 is concerned, do you not?

. P-17

1A.
[Mr Irving]
I relied on Karl Wolff who was the adjutant of Heinrich 2Himmler for a period of about 10 or 15 years, if my memory 3serves me right, who wrote in this confidential manuscript 4an account of his own personal impressions of the 5character and nature of this rather weird man, Heinrich 6Himmler, who came from humble origins and turned into one 7of history's biggest mass killers. He was an interesting, 8obviously a man very well placed, Karl Wolff, to describe 9Heinrich Himmler in his underpants, so to speak. 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You put that passage from Karl Wolff's interrogation in 111952 ----- 12A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
--- by Dr von Siegler, I think his name was, before this 14court because you wanted to rely on a single passage where 15Karl Wolff, effectively, in your eyes, exculpates Adolf 16Hitler in relation to the Holocaust, is that not what you 17did? 18A.
[Mr Irving]
No. I put it before the court because I am accused of 19having invented or manipulated or distorted without any 20fundamental or documentary basis whatsoever, and I cannot 21help it if your historians and experts either did not know 22of these sources or knew of them but decided not to use 23them. 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
In your eyes, is Karl Wolff a reliable witness? 25A.
[Mr Irving]
In some respects he is and in some respects he is not. 26Q.
[Mr Rampton]
So when he talks in unvarnished terms about the Juden

. P-18

1ausrottung, the extermination of the Jews -- your 2translation -- is he reliable or not? 3A.
[Mr Irving]
It depends precisely what he is saying. As I said, he is 4in some respects reliable and in some respects he is not. 5If you let me see the passage you wish to ask me about, 6then, of course, I will comment on it. 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It is a very short line. You translated it yourself only 8a very few days ago. We are not going back to ---- 9A.
[Mr Irving]
Please, if you wish me to comment on a passage, my Lord, I 10think ---- 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: There are two points. You can have it if you 12like, but I think the two points are (1) is the reference 13to millions of Jews having been killed and the other is a 14reference to gassing. We can look at the document if you 15like? 16A.
[Mr Irving]
I probably have it in front of me here somewhere. 17I promise I am not going to use the tactics that have been 18used by the Defence witnesses throughout this case of 19constantly relying, asking to see the documents. 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, well, if you want to see it, we can see 21it. 22A.
[Mr Irving]
In this particular case, I am asked for an impression and 23I ought to have a look at the original document. 24MR RAMPTON: If you would like to look at page 5 of your own 25translation, it is just above and below your page 26reference 00032. I am quite happy with your translation,

. P-19

1so we need not bother with the German. 2A.
[Mr Irving]
Page 5, right? 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Fifth page. I do not know where it is. 4A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, I have it. It is page 00031 or 32. 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. 6A.
[Mr Irving]
"From what we survey today", is this right? 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, I will read it, if I may: "From what we survey 8today, there were perhaps 70 men, all told, from Himmler 9to Hoess who were involved in the extermination of the 10Jews", and you give the German, Juden ausrottung. 11"General Wolff also saw Bormann who was definitely 12actively involved in these things together with Hoess, the 13former Famer murderer. Bormann and Himmler", handwritten 14insert "Wolff probably", "represented the view that the 15Jewish problem had to be dealt with without Hitler getting 16his fingers dirty in the process. The gassing idea", and 17that means gassing of human beings, does it not? 18A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"... probably emerged when a genuine epidemic broke out in 20the Auschwitz camp and mass dying resulted". Can we rely 21on General Wolff as telling the truth in that passage so 22far as the extermination of Jews by gassing is concerned? 23A.
[Mr Irving]
It is the curate's egg, if you know the expression, 24Mr Rampton. 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, Mr Irving, I am nearly as old as you are. 26A.
[Mr Irving]
The figure of 70 is clearly wrong. That is clearly an

. P-20

1understatement. Far more than 70 men all told were 2initiated in the mass killing of Jews by the Nazis. 3Depending on what he means by that, regardless of what he 4means by that, whether he is talking about just the 5Auschwitz and the killings of the western European Jews or 6if he is talking about the shootings on the East. I think 7here he is talking about the first. He is talking only 8about the killing of the European Jews. 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Come on. He uses the word "gassing". 10A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. That is precisely what I am mentioning. That is why 11I am saying that. The gassing idea. Now, that part 12I think he is clearly commenting on what he now knows, 131952, after seven years of reading newspapers. 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. Oh really? 15A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. But also he is involved -- if he read the Harold 16Turner letter, of course, from Serbia, then he would have 17been aware of gassings on a small scale in Serbia. 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Not in relation, Mr Irving, to a reference to Auschwitz as 19having been the source of the gassing because, if it was 20Auschwitz and disease there that gave rise to the idea, as 21General Wolff suggests, then the substance used for the 22gassing in consequence of the realization of that idea 23would have been prussic acid, would it not? 24A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, Zyklon-B. 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Thank you. Now I want to go back to this Milton thing. 26I am going to make a suggestion, you will deal it with it

. P-21

1and then we can pass on to something else. I suggest to 2you that, so far from, as it were, approaching this matter 3as a serious historian would be and asking your audience 4to be critical about eyewitness accounts, had you done 5that, you would have paid attention to the serious 6eyewitness accounts, so far from doing that, what you are 7doing is feeding the anti-Semitism of your audience by 8mocking the survivors and indeed the dead from the 9Holocaust? 10A.
[Mr Irving]
I do not think that in that fragment we saw, and of course 11I do not know else is in the rest of the speech. 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Assholes? 13A.
[Mr Irving]
I think I am right in referring -- do you wish me to deal 14with that matter or the matter you just asked me about? 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Finish your answer. 16MR RAMPTON: You finish the answer and I will draw your 17attention to that. Carry on. You finish your answer, I 18am sorry. 19A.
[Mr Irving]
I think that the word "Jew" or the reference to "Jews" was 20not made in that fragment, and of course very many other 21people suffered the torment of Auschwitz. I do not know 22why you just single out the Jews for this particular 23comment. 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I see. Here we are talking about Polish gentiles, are 25we? This telephone box and the sedan chair and all that 26kind of thing?

. P-22

1A.
[Mr Irving]
I think the reference is to Poles, yes. Thank you for 2reminding me. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I ask you, because I am not quite clear, 4Mr Irving? You say there was one eyewitness who told the 5story about the mobile telephone box? 6A.
[Mr Irving]
There are sheaves of stories like this which came out in 7various trials, right up to the to 1960s. 8Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Focus on my question. I think you did say earlier on, in 9answer to Mr Rampton, that there was one eyewitness who 10told the story of the telephone box? 11A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, that is one of the stories that is told. 12Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Yes. I just want you to focus on that one eyewitness. 13Did you read it or hear it? How did you come to know 14about it? 15A.
[Mr Irving]
This was probably ten years ago and I have to say that, 16having read large numbers of documents at that time and 17having read very large numbers of documents more recently, 18I cannot say whether I saw the actual eyewitness 19interrogation, or whether it has become part of the law 20through being quoted in the Frankfurt trial by the defence 21or prosecution. It is certainly part of the folk law, if 22I can put it like that in a non-derogatory way, 23surrounding the Auschwitz killings, rather like the 24conveyor belt and the rest of it, that is known to 25historians on both sides of the divide. Yesterday 26evening, when I got home, I did put out an appeal to my

. P-23

1world wide circle of historian friends to say, who can 2provide me with the actual document. 3Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Has anything come up as a result of that? 4A.
[Mr Irving]
By this morning, when I checked the e-mails, one person 5came up with a reference to a one man portable low 6temperature chamber that was being developed and that was 7being spoken. 8Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
That is obviously not it, is it? 9A.
[Mr Irving]
Not yet, no. 10Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
You have not been able to pinpoint where this comes from? 11A.
[Mr Irving]
No, but obviously I have put wheels in motion to obtain 12the actual document, because of the value it would have 13for the court. 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Sorry, Mr Rampton. 15MR RAMPTON: I just put these remarks of yours in context, if 16I may, Mr Irving. You say you were talking only about 17gentile Poles that escaped from Auschwitz. Let us read on 18on page 18. 19A.
[Mr Irving]
I did not say I was only talking about Poles. My actual 20remark was that I did not talk about Jews in that 21particular fragment. You then said Poles. 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Shall we put the fragment in context, Mr Irving? On page 2316, the page before the one we were looking at, there is a 24lengthy reference at the bottom of the page to somebody 25call called Ely Wiesel. Is he a Polish gentile or is he a 26Jew?

. P-24

1A.
[Mr Irving]
I think he is a very well-known Holocaust propagandist, if 2I can put it like that. 3MR RAMPTON: That is not an answer to my question. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is he a gentile or is he a Jew? 5A.
[Mr Irving]
He is Jewish, so far as I know. 6MR RAMPTON: Then let us have a look at page 18, from where the 7video stopped. It is the top of page 18 after the note 8that there was applause. 9A.
[Mr Irving]
I do not have the transcript in front of me and perhaps 10I should. 11MR RAMPTON: I am sorry. Then you will need it. 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, you should. 13MR RAMPTON: It is K3, tab 10, page 18. 14A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. Ely Wiesel, of course, is one of the people I call 15the spurious survivors of the Holocaust like Benjamin 16Wilkormierski and others, who have made a living out of 17it. 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Sandwiched between that Jewish gentleman whom you 19characterize as a spurious survivor of the Holocaust and 20the next passage, which is also about spurious, in your 21view, survivors of the Holocaust, is all this stuff about 22the telephone box. So let us read page 18, shall we: "Let 23me give you an example of why I think it" -- that is to 24say this imaginary experience -- "is a psychiatric 25problem. Let me give you a little parable here, a 26biblical parable almost, because in Israel, now the

. P-25

1Ministry of Justice, announced three or four weeks ago the 2British newspaper, the Independent, reported this news 3communique, that every year 200 tourists go to Jerusalem, 4which is, of course, that magnificent city, this crossing 5point of three different religions and cultures. They are 6so overwhelmed by these cross currents, these, the vibes 7of the city of Jerusalem, that every year 200 tourists go 8there and believe that they are the messiah reborn and 9returning to Jerusalem. They cannot all be the messiah. 10At most one of them can be the messiah", and you are not 11talking about Jesus of Nazareth, are you? 12A.
[Mr Irving]
It is quite clear that I am. This is a genuine statement 13released by the Israeli government. 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No. 15A.
[Mr Irving]
Carry on. 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You are talking about the messiah, for whom the Jewish 17people are still waiting, are you not? 18A.
[Mr Irving]
This reminds me of mathematical equations. You said the 19letter E in an equation can be the exponential factor but 20need not be. These people could be the messiah, but need 21not be, if I can put it like that. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: You call it a parable, do you not? Come on. 23MR RAMPTON: "They cannot all be the messiah. At most, one of 24them can be the messiah, so 199 of them are liars". 25A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 26Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"But they have had this immense religious experience, and

. P-26

1it is rather the same kind of trauma as people who went to 2Auschwitz, or people who believed they went to Auschwitz, 3or people who can kid themselves into believing they went 4to Auschwitz, and the only way to overcome this appalling 5pseudo-religious atmosphere that surrounds the whole of 6this immense tragedy called World War II is to treat these 7little legends with the ridicule and the bad taste that 8they deserve. Ridicule alone is not enough. You have got 9to be tasteless about it. You have to say things like 10more women died on the back seat of Senator Edward 11Kennedy's car at Chappaquidick than died in the gas 12chambers of Auschwitz (applause)". 13A.
[Mr Irving]
The applause drowned the rest of the sentence, 14unfortunately, which is "in the gas chambers of Auschwitz 15which are shown to the tourists". I always say exactly 16the same thing. 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Oh no, you do not, Mr Irving. We went through that 18before. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is it on the video? 20MR RAMPTON: This is on the video. Would your Lordship like to 21see it? 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, unless it is going to take ages to get 23it going. 24MR RAMPTON: No, it is not. It is only the rest of this page 25really. Just go from where it is. 26(The video was shown).

. P-27

1MR RAMPTON: Stop there, please. 2A.
[Mr Irving]
You are right. You are absolutely right. In that 3particular one I did not put in the rider that that is the 4one they show the tourists. 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You did not. Frequently you have not. Not only have 6you not put in the rider, you have added other gas 7chambers elsewhere, Treblinka, Belzec. Not here. In the 8documents we were looking at yesterday. 9A.
[Mr Irving]
You are adding them now verbally into my speech. 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, I am not. 11A.
[Mr Irving]
Shall we just abide by the speech that I was speaking 12here? 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You said a moment ago that you never make any reference to 14any gas chamber but the one which was reconstructed by the 15Poles after the war. That is simply false, is it not? 16A.
[Mr Irving]
The one that is faked by the Poles after the war. 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, whatever you like. It is simply a false statement, 18is not, Mr Irving? We saw a whole lot of statements by 19you yesterday, did we not? 20A.
[Mr Irving]
Will you please ask the question again because you ---- 21Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Your statement that you never make reference to any but 22what you call the fake gas chamber at Auschwitz (i), gas 23chamber singular, is a false statement, is it not? 24A.
[Mr Irving]
I frequently refer to gas chambers elsewhere, yes. 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. 26A.
[Mr Irving]
But in what connection?

. P-28

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
In the context of saying that they never existed. 2A.
[Mr Irving]
In Dachau, for example. We now know that eyewitnesses 3reported there were gas chambers in Dachau, and we now 4know the German government has confirmed there were never 5any gas chambers in Dachau. That is a typical example. 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, I do not believe you have that bad a memory. I 7really do not. 8A.
[Mr Irving]
You just asked me a question and I have answered it. 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
In that case I am going to have to remind you of what you 10were shown but yesterday. Laborious, but necessary. 11A.
[Mr Irving]
Dachau is typical example of survivors who were caught out 12lying. 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You will have to be patient with me, Mr Irving. I will 14find it. This is just an example from page 156 of 15yesterday's transcript, if you have yesterday's 16transcript. This is a speech by you at Moers that we 17looked at yesterday. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Would you like a copy of it? 19A.
[Mr Irving]
If it is not going to be too tedious. 20MR RAMPTON: I will read it out. You said: "The dummies are 21still standing in Auschwitz, because the German government 22has no sway there". Page 156, line 8. "The dummies are 23still standing in Auschwitz because the German government 24has no sway there, and understandably that is problem for 25you" -- that is the Germans -- "that you have a 26government in Bonn that allows its own people to be

. P-29

1defamed by all countries of the world, although in the 2meantime it is cried out that these things in Auschwitz, 3and probably in Maidonek, Treblinka and in other so- 4called extermination camps in the East, are all dummies". 5That is a direct quote from your speech in Moers. 6A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. Are you quoting the speech to me? Are you going to 7quote something from the exchange that follows? If so, 8I cannot quite understand why we are looking at 9yesterday's exchange rather than looking at the actual 10speech. 11Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Because it was the easiest way to what you said in Moers. 12I have it in the file. 13A.
[Mr Irving]
Of course, if you do it that way, we do not know exactly 14what was said in the actual speech. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: We can track it down, I am sure. 16MR RAMPTON: Page 3, tab 5, Mr Irving. 17A.
[Mr Irving]
Perhaps we can just wait to see what the question is and 18then it may not be worth the effort. 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I have put the question already. You made a statement not 20more than a couple of minutes ago that you never make 21reference to the non-existence of gas chambers except in 22relation to what you call the fake gas chamber at 23Auschwitz (i). That statement was false, was it not? 24A.
[Mr Irving]
"The dummies were still standing in Auschwitz, these 25things in Auschwitz and probably in Maidonek, Treblinka 26and in the other so-called extermination camps". I think

. P-30

1the word "probably" therefore has to be looked at and 2emphasised. 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Carry on. Read on. 4A.
[Mr Irving]
In other words ---- 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Read on. The fact is that Auschwitz we know that what 6they show the tourists is fake because the Poles have no 7now admitted it. I am sorry, "reconstructed" is what you 8call it. 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
What? 10A.
[Mr Irving]
But the other places, Maidonek, Treblinka and so on, my 11hands are tied in really dealing with that because, for 12the purposes of this court action, I am not challenging 13them. 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think we are getting a bit confused here. 15A.
[Mr Irving]
My Lord, perhaps I can help? 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, because I may have misunderstood the 17position. I think it all arose out of your saying to 18Mr Rampton earlier that, whenever you refer to no Jews, or 19virtually no Jews, having died in concentration camps, you 20add the rider that you are really talking about what you 21call the dummy constructed after the war at Auschwitz. 22A.
[Mr Irving]
I hesitate to allow your Lordship to put words into my 23mouth. 24MR RAMPTON: Let us go back on the transcript for today and we 25will find it. 26A.
[Mr Irving]
I am much more specific than that, and I say that, in this

. P-31

1rather tasteless way, more women died on the back seat of 2that car than died in the gas chamber at Auschwitz, 3meaning the one they showed the tourists. 4MR RAMPTON: It is when I was reading the transcript before we 5saw the video. We will get the exact words, my Lord. 6A.
[Mr Irving]
It is part of the gramophone record, if I can put it like 7that. 8MR RAMPTON: In the light of yesterday's evidence from 9Professor Funke -- I cannot read that. Now, Mr Irving, I 10am going to read you back your answer. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Page 24. 12MR RAMPTON: Page 24 of today. This what gave rise to all of 13this, you see, Mr Irving. You made yet another, shall 14I say courteously -- "The applause drowned the rest of the 15sentence, unfortunately, which is, 'in the gas chambers of 16Auschwitz which are shown to the tourists'. I always say 17exactly the same thing". It was a false statement, that, 18was it not? 19A.
[Mr Irving]
It was clearly wrong. 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. 21A.
[Mr Irving]
But not deliberately wrong. I have this same part of my 22speech that I deliver again and again and it is possible 23that, in the heat of this particular speech which was 24spoken without notes, as you will see ---- 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, Mr Irving. 26A.
[Mr Irving]
-- to a non-skinhead audience.

. P-32

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
What was false is that you always say exactly the same 2thing. You do not. You frequently refer to the 3non-existence of any gas chambers in the plural. 4A.
[Mr Irving]
I think you will have to show me the passages where 5I frequently say this. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: The point is you deny the existence of gas 7chambers and, when you do that, you do not talk only of 8the dummies such as the one that was constructed after the 9war at Auschwitz. That I think is the point. 10A.
[Mr Irving]
If that is the point he is trying to make, then of course 11he is wrong because I have made it quite plain earlier in 12this case that I accept that in Auschwitz Birkenhau gas 13chamber experiments were conducted, for example, in the 14bunkers, the two buildings called the bunkers, and to that 15degree I certainly do not deny it. 16MR RAMPTON: I expect you have been reading the Eichmann 17memoirs, have you not? 18A.
[Mr Irving]
Not yet. If you know how little time I have. 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
If you do a word search on them, look for the word 20"Vergasungslager". 21A.
[Mr Irving]
I take your tip. Thank you very much. 22"Vergasungslager"? 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, "Vergasungslager", gassing camps, Mr Irving. 24A.
[Mr Irving]
I will tell you the result of that when I come here 25tomorrow. 26Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I am just going to finish. My Lord, unless your Lordship

. P-33

1wants me to ---- 2A.
[Mr Irving]
Mr Rampton, if you intend to rely on that particular word, 3I think you should show me the passage so I can comment on 4it now, rather than just leave it hanging in mid air. 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: At the moment we have not gone to the 6Eichmann diaries at all, and I do not know whether we are 7even going to. 8MR RAMPTON: I am going to continue, my Lord, if I may, with 9page 18 of the transcript, unless your Lordship would like 10to see it on the screen. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I think not. 12A.
[Mr Irving]
That is certainly not the way to introduce the Eichmann 13memoirs, to do it like that, just to throw one word out. 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: They have not been introduced, Mr Irving. Let 15us go back to page 18. 16MR RAMPTON: After the statement that more women died on the 17back seat of Edward Kennedy's car at Chappaquidick than 18died in the gas chambers (plural) at Auschwitz, there is 19some applause which did not drown out anything else you 20said. You then continued: "Now" you think that is 21tasteless. What about this? I am forming an association 22especially dedicated to all these liars, the ones who try 23and kid people that they were in these concentration 24camps. It is called the Auschwitz Survivors of the 25Holocaust and Other Liars Assholes", and you spell it out 26for them so that they get the joke. "Cannot get more

. P-34

1tasteless than that but you have got to be tasteless 2because these people deserve all our contempt and in fact 3they deserve the contempt of the real Jewish community and 4the people, whatever their class and colour, who did 5suffer." I do not know that I need to go on. 6A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. I got something wrong, of course. 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
What was that? 8A.
[Mr Irving]
The title of that association. It is the Association of 9Spurious Survivors of the Holocaust, but, once again, in 10the heat of the talk, I got it wrong. 11Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I am awfully sorry about that. The fact is, Mr Irving, 12what you are doing here, as you were at Hagenau and on 13other occasions that we have seen ---- 14A.
[Mr Irving]
Mocking the liars. 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Oh yes, Mr Irving, but why the applause? 16A.
[Mr Irving]
Because I am a good speaker, Mr Rampton. 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
What? 18A.
[Mr Irving]
I am a good speaker. 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, Professor Funke had you bang to rights, did he 20not? What you are doing is appealing to, feeding, 21encouraging, the most cynical radical anti-Semitism in 22your audiences, are you not? 23A.
[Mr Irving]
Do liars not deserve to be exposed as such? If you saw 24the audience as you saw them in that film, did you see any 25skinheads or extremists or people wearing arm bands? 26I did not. They looked like a perfectly ordinary bunch of

. P-35

1middle-class Canadians. 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No doubt they too, Mr Irving, will spread the word, if 3I may use that terminology? 4A.
[Mr Irving]
Is that evidence or are you asking me a question? 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I am asking you a question. That is what you are hoping, 6is it not? 7A.
[Mr Irving]
Spread the word that there are elements of the Holocaust 8story that need to be treated with scepticism, yes. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, an I ask you this? Of these 10eyewitnesses, are you saying that they have come to 11believe what they say about their experiences and that is 12why they need psychiatric treatment? Or are you saying 13that they are collectively telling lies, deliberate 14falsehoods? 15A.
[Mr Irving]
Different people have different motives or different 16reasons. There are different reasons why they tell 17stories that are not true in this particular context. We 18saw the witness Professor van Pelt in the video and in his 19report talking of the almost mystical and religious awe in 20which he holds the site of Auschwitz. I can well 21understand that. It has become very central to their 22existence as the Jewish people. It has become an 23important part of their social awareness. It has become 24very close to religion in some aspects, in my view. It 25has become almost blasphemy to trample on any part of that 26ground. It has become holy ground, both in the physical

. P-36

1concrete sense and in the metaphysical sense. As with any 2religion, there are hangers on, people who believe they 3were there, people who believe they touched the cloth, if 4I can put it like that. There have been an increasing 5number in recent years -- Benjamin Wilkormierski is one 6example Ely Wiesel is another -- who have capitalized on, 7or instrumentalized, the Holocaust. Now, I am not a 8psychologist, I am not a psychiatrist, but I have looked 9into some of the learned psychiatric texts that have been 10written about this phenomenon of the man who believes he 11is a survivor, the man who has been through a traumatic 12experience and either puts himself in the middle of an 13experience that he was on the periphery of, or who puts 14himself into an experience when he was not there at all. 15That is what the reference to the psychiatric problem is 16in this. It is put admittedly in the most tasteless 17possible way. Nobody can accuse me of not having been 18tasteless, and I probably deserve to be horse whipped for 19it, but the fact is that I am dealing here with a serious 20problem concerning the eyewitness accounts from Auschwitz. 21MR RAMPTON: And your audience absolutely love it, do they not, 22Mr Irving? It is music to their ears, is it not? 23A.
[Mr Irving]
They travel 200 miles sometimes to come and hear me speak, 24yes. 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Good. Now I want to ask you about the National Alliance, 26if I may. For this purpose you will need Bundle A. It is

. P-37

1the request for information and the answers that the 2witness will need. Page 79 of the request first of all, 3question 23, in the middle of the page under the main 4heading, the National Alliance. We asked you the 5questions, Mr Irving. I hope you have got it: "Do you 6agree that the National Alliance is responsible for the 7material contained in the appendix to Rebecca Goodman's 8witness statement? Do you agree that it is the largest 9and one of the most influential neo-Nazi organizations in 10the United States of America, being extremely right-wing, 11racist and anti-Semitic? Do you agree that it publishes 12and/or advertises through national vanguard publications 13which are extremely right-wing, racist and anti-Semitic"? 14Then we asked you: "Do you agree that you spoke at 15various National Alliance events"? 16 You will find your answers to questions 23 and 1725 in a document in tab 9, I think I am told, page 7. Can 18I ask you this? When you receive a document like this in 19the course of legal proceedings, and I know this is not 20the first time you have litigated, do you take the 21questions which are asked seriously? Do you take this to 22be a serious event in the course of the proceedings? 23A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, in view of what happened to Mr Aitken, I take it 24very seriously indeed, yes. 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
So your response to the first question about your 26knowledge of the National Alliance is this: "I have no

. P-38

1association of the body known to the Defendants as the 2National Alliance as such or whatsoever. I cannot rule 3out that members of that organization, which I take to be 4a legal organization in the United States, have attended 5functions at which I spoke. Accordingly I have no 6knowledge of, and I take no interest in, what materials it 7publishes or distributes. I have no knowledge whatsoever 8of the character of the National Alliance, other than what 9is now claimed by the witnesses for the Defendants, nor 10the publications which it is alleged to publish or 11advertised". 12 In relation to the next question, in answer to 13the next question, you gave this answer: "I do not agree 14that I have spoken at any National Alliance meetings. It 15might be that on occasions a gentleman who was a member of 16the National Alliance offered to organize a lecture for 17me. In other words, he undertook to find a suitable 18room. But I then circulated 'my' entire local mailing 19list to provide an audience. No doubt he brought his 20friends as well. It will be seen that in all these 21photographs of these events which are produced at trial, 22there is no kind of National Alliance 'presence'". 23 Those statements were false, were they not, 24Mr Irving? 25A.
[Mr Irving]
At the time I made them, they were absolutely correct, 26yes. They were not false. I have the photographs.

. P-39

1I have not yet introduced the photographs I am referring 2to, but I have them ready. 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, we showed in this court, oh some time ago now, 4video tape of you standing on a platform with a National 5Alliance banner by your left shoulder, did we not? That 6was film taken by the Australia film crew, was it not? 7A.
[Mr Irving]
You showed a video tape of me in a room, on one wall of 8which was a banner, which has been pointed out to me in 9this courtroom as being a National Alliance banner. I do 10not suppose a single person in this courtroom would be 11able to tell you what a National Alliance banner looks 12like, and that is the position of most English people. 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Except, may I suggest, you, Mr Irving. Could the witness 14be given RWE 1, and be asked to turn to tab 2? 15A.
[Mr Irving]
Shall I get my own file? 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No. Somebody must do it for you. The first document in 17this section of the file, Mr Irving, is a letter dated 3rd 18February 1990. It has on its left-hand side a sort of 19symbol? 20A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 21Q.
[Mr Rampton]
On the right-hand side it says in large, emphatic black 22ink: "National Alliance, PO Box something or other, Palma, 23Ohio", does it not? 24A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"Hello David", it says, "I have arranged for you to speak 26on Wednesday, June 3rd, 7.30 p.m. at the Croatian Home in

. P-40

1Cleveland. Enclosed is a map, Croatian Home", and then 2the address. "You are welcome to stay again at the 3residence of Mark Wavra", I think it is, in somewhere or 4other and then the telephone number is given? 5A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"Stay in touch and call me if need be." 7A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
That letter, I suspect, comes from your discovery, I do 9not know? 10A.
[Mr Irving]
Almost certainly, yes. 11Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, so is this letter a forgery? 12A.
[Mr Irving]
No. 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Well, how do you explain it? 14A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, if you would like to ask me specific questions? 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
How do you explain this letter in the light of the answers 16you gave us on paper? 17A.
[Mr Irving]
Would you ask me a specific question? 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: It looks like a letter from an official of 19the National Alliance because it has "National Alliance" 20at the top, and it looks as if you have a prior 21relationship with the writer, Gliber, is that the point? 22A.
[Mr Irving]
Can I draw your attention to the second sentence of my 23answer No. 25? It might be that on occasions a gentleman 24who was a member of the National Alliance offered to 25organize a lecture for me, in other words, he undertook to 26find a suitable room. Is that the kind of letter you

. P-41

1would expect in response, describing the room that he has 2offered, that he has provided? No reference that it is 3going to be a National Alliance function; he is just using 4his own notepaper? 5MR RAMPTON: "I have no association with a body known to the 6Defendants as the National Alliance as such, or 7whatsoever. I do not agree that I have spoken at any 8National Alliance meetings". Those were false statements, 9were they not, Mr Irving? 10A.
[Mr Irving]
Still completely true. This is not an association with a 11body. He is not writing in official capacity to me. He 12is writing to me as a personal friend. I do not know why 13he used that notepaper. It was not a National Alliance 14function, and if you asked me 10 years later, do 15I recognize that logo on the top left-hand corner, I do 16not recognize it; and if you had asked me even between the 17time we saw the video and now, I could not have drawn it 18from memory, let alone 10 years later. Can you draw from 19memory the logo of the Automobile Association, just to 20give one example? I do not know. 21Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I have not finished, Mr Irving. Do not be too hasty. 22A.
[Mr Irving]
That is why I asked you to ask specific questions rather 23than... 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
The specific question is you know perfectly well who the 25National Alliance are and you always have done? 26A.
[Mr Irving]
I now know who they are, yes.

. P-42

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, no. You always knew who they were. 2A.
[Mr Irving]
That is a different question, is it not? 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You have cooperated with them willingly. You agreed to 4speak at meetings hosted or organized by them in the full 5knowledge of who they were, did you not? 6A.
[Mr Irving]
The answer is, no, I did not. I am talking in the past 7tense. I know now who they are because I have now read a 8lot of literature provided by the Defendants about them. 9At the time that, at all material times, I was not aware 10who the National Alliance were, I was not aware of what 11their logo looked like, the fact that somebody had some 12kind of logo on the top left-hand corner of letters 13certainly is not going to embed itself in my 14consciousness. Why should it? 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I will tell you why in a moment. Turn over to page 2, 16please. 17A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. Is there any logo on this letter? 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, there is no logo ---- 19A.
[Mr Irving]
Is there any "National Alliance" heading on the letter? 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Please be patient. You will see how the matter develops 21very shortly. This is dated 15th September 1995. It 22comes from somebody called Erich Gliber? 23A.
[Mr Irving]
The same man. 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
What? 25A.
[Mr Irving]
The same man, yes. 26Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No. Is it?

. P-43

1MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, the same man. 2MR RAMPTON: Oh, yes, the same man, the same fellow. This time 3you are going to be speaking at Lithuanian Village in 4Cleveland as opposed to Croatian Home in Cleveland. 5A.
[Mr Irving]
Do you want to make anything out of that? I mean, you 6appear to be emphasising those words as though you were 7attaching importance to. 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I do, perhaps, Mr Irving. 9A.
[Mr Irving]
Do I detect any xenophobia there? 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, answer the questions. 11MR RAMPTON: Perhaps you can help us. 12A.
[Mr Irving]
I have nothing against Croatians or Lithuanians. 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, during the war the Croatians were one of the Nazi 14puppet governments, were they not? 15A.
[Mr Irving]
Is that the point you are trying to make? 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Answer my question, please, Mr Irving. 17A.
[Mr Irving]
The Croatians? 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. 19A.
[Mr Irving]
There was a puppet Croatian government, yes. There was a 20puppet Belgian Government and a puppet Dutch Government, 21yes. 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
But the Croatians -- I do not want to go too far down this 23road -- it is right were enthusiastic supporters of the 24Nazis, were they not? 25A.
[Mr Irving]
All the Croatians? I do not know. 26Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, no, the Croatian Government.

. P-44

1A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, the puppet government was. That is what puppet 2governments do. There were puppet Marxist governments. 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
And during the war in Lithuania, as we have seen, 4Reinhardt Heydrich saw Lithuania, amongst other places in 5the Baltic states, as being a fertile source of 6anti-Semitic problems, did he not? 7A.
[Mr Irving]
I think most of the Eastern European countries were, yes. 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Do you know why these places are called "Croatian Home" 9and "Lithuanian Village"? 10A.
[Mr Irving]
I think they had -- if you look in one of the photographs 11which I will present to the court, there is actually a 12Croatian banner hanging on the back wall. It is rather 13like the British Legion. The veterans who live in that 14area, in the Cleveland area, there are a lot of these 15ethnic minorities, and I have got nothing against ethnic 16minorities. 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No. 18A.
[Mr Irving]
But they have their own meeting place, their own social 19halls and so on. 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Now, the next page over, page 3 in the circle in 21handwriting at the bottom of the page, is from what? 22There will be an index somewhere. 23A.
[Mr Irving]
I have no idea at all. Never seen it. 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It is from the National Alliance bulletin, yes. It is a 25very bad photograph and one could not tell it was a 26photograph of anything at all in the top right-hand

. P-45

1corner, and it is captioned "David Irving lecturing at 2Cleveland. A fund raising activity for the Cleveland 3unit." Under "Cleveland activity", the cross heading in 4the middle column says: "On October 1st, the Cleveland 5united hosted", sorry, just looking for a date, "October 61st, the Cleveland unit hosted a very successful lecture 7by the British historian and revisionist author, David 8Irving. More than 100 tickets were sold at $10 each. 9After paying Mr Irving's $500 fee and the modest rent for 10the hall, the unit had a profit of approximately $400. To 11this was added the income from sales of Alliance books and 12from a bake sale". Drop down, please, to the bottom of 13the page. 14A.
[Mr Irving]
From a bake sale organised by the unit's women -- a very 15dangerous body, obviously! 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, of course, it is like the Women's Institute! Drop 17down to the bottom of the page: "Mr Irving's lecture was 18received enthusiastically by the audience and he was able 19to autograph and sell a substantial number of his own 20books during the meeting. The Cleveland unit's next 21public activity will be a white power rock concert on New 22Year's Eve"? 23A.
[Mr Irving]
"White power rock concert". 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. Now please turn over the page to page 4. 25A.
[Mr Irving]
Are you going to ask a question about that? Have I ever 26seen that before? The answer is no.

. P-46

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, this is just part of the narrative, Mr Irving. My 2question may sometimes come after several documents. You 3have to be patient. 4A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, sometimes I will give an immediate response. 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Page 4, your diary, October 1st 1995: "Pittsburg, 6Pennsylvania to Cleveland, Ohio. Rose at 7.30 a.m.. 7Packed. Left for Cleveland around 3 p.m. Arrived at 8meeting place 6.00 p.m. Fine meeting, around 150 people, 9many ethnic Germans. Gate of $500 was agreed plus £1700 10book sales. What a relief. Sat up to 2 a.m. with my 11hosts after supper chatting". October 2nd: "Rose 9.50 12a.m. breakfast with my hosts, plural, lawyer etc." Do 13you still maintain that you do not know who these people 14were? 15A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. The host was Mark Wavra who is a well-known 16Cleveland lawyer who had nothing to do with the Alliance. 17Is that the question you are asking? 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
They were your hosts for this meeting, Mr Irving. 19A.
[Mr Irving]
The hosts are the people I am actually staying with. If 20you saw the previous letter, the first letter, that they 21have arranged for me to be accommodated in this lawyer's 22home, I have nothing against lawyers. 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Is that Mark Wavra the -- I can never remember what "IHR" 24stands for and I do not much care. IHR is historian? 25A.
[Mr Irving]
Sorry, it is not. It is Wavra, W-A-V-R-A. 26Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, it is mishearing?

. P-47

1A.
[Mr Irving]
I point out, of course, there is not the slightest 2reference either in that diary entry or in any other diary 3entry to the NA or the National Alliance or to any other 4body which confirms what I said about having had no 5knowledge of them. 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Well, I asked you to be patient. You have jumped in as 7you so often do ---- 8A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
---- and I turn now, please, to page 5? 10A.
[Mr Irving]
Page? 11Q.
[Mr Rampton]
5, your diary again? 12A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
October 6th 1995, same year? 14A.
[Mr Irving]
Oh, yes. 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Five days later: "Savanna, Georgia to Tampa, Florida. 167.45 a.m. radio show from Tampa. Did a 20 minute 17interview and they announced the location. Not amused by 18that. Drove all day to Tampa, phoned Key West, etc. etc. 19etc. Arrived at the Hotel Best Western at 4.00 p.m. 20Sinister gent with pony tail was the organizer. Turned 21out the meeting here is also organized by the National 22Alliance and National Vanguard Bookshop. Well 23attended". Now, Mr Irving, do you want to revise the 24answers you have just been giving me? 25A.
[Mr Irving]
It just goes to show how bad my memory is, yes, but it 26always illustrates, does it not, the fact that I am

. P-48

1learning as I go along, and that I had not the slightest 2notion who these people are. Would that be a proper 3interpretation to put on that entry? 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, Mr Irving, it would not. Turn now to the meeting 5here, Tampa, is also organized by the ---- 6A.
[Mr Irving]
The same entry. 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
--- National Alliance. In other words, you knew that both 8the meetings were organized by the National Alliance? 9A.
[Mr Irving]
Obviously, I had subsequently learned that the previous 10one was also organized by this body which I had never 11heard of. 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
We have seen that speech in Tampa in full in this court 13some weeks ago. On this occasion the host, let me call 14him this, whose name I am afraid I do not know, but I 15suppose it might have been this chap Gliber, I do not 16know, although he seems to be in Cleveland and not Tampa, 17he opened the proceedings with you on the platform and the 18banner nearby: "Ladies and gentlemen, on behalf of the 19National Alliance and National Vanguard Books, I would 20like to proudly welcome Mr David Irving." Do you want to 21revise your evidence, Mr Irving? 22A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, obviously he put in a plug, what on TV would be 23called a plug for his own particular passion. 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"On behalf of the National Alliance and National Vanguard 25Books", remember your diary entry ---- 26A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes.

. P-49

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
--- organized by the National Alliance and National 2Vanguard Bookshop, "On behalf of the National Alliance and 3National Vanguard Books, I would like proudly", "I would 4like to proudly", he is an American, "I would like to 5proudly welcome Mr David Irving"? 6A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Well, Mr Irving. 8A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, as I say, he has taken the advantage that he is 9making the opening speech to put in a plug for his own 10friends. That is all I can say, and it does not contrast 11with what I said in paragraph 25, that I have been invited 12by an individual and that the audience is almost entirely 13made up from my own list and that is why he is putting in 14his plug and why he is welcoming the outsiders. 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"I have no association with a body known to the Defendants 16as the National Alliance as such or whatsoever. I do not 17agree that I have spoken at any National Alliance 18meetings". Two statements which are both completely 19false, am I right? 20A.
[Mr Irving]
No. I stand entirely with what I said in paragraph 25, 21and it is quite evident from my diary entries that I am 22learning as I literally drive around the United States 23that I speak at these functions and afterwards I have 24found out, "Oh, that one was organized by this person too 25or by that body too", and I find out subsequently. Once 26again, I have to say that I have not the faintest notion

. P-50

1who they are or who they were. I spoke in the United 2States sometimes 100 times in one year, always to 3different bodies, and I am not going to make any 4particular note of which these bodies or these functions 5or universities or groups or whatever. 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I take leave, if I may, Mr Irving to inform you that 7I reject every word of that answer. I will not take it 8any further in that direction, but I do ask you, have you 9familiarised yourself with the National Alliance 10literature? 11A.
[Mr Irving]
No, I am not the least bit interested in it. 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I thought you said you had looked at it since this case 13began? 14A.
[Mr Irving]
I fluttered through the things that were put into your 15bundles. That is when I have been mystified as to the 16relevance of them, frankly, catalogues of books and 17things. I thought, what on earth has that got to do with 18me? 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Because this poisonous material is on sale at the meetings 20which you have allowed yourself to be exploited at, if 21I may put it like that, held and organized with your 22knowledge by the National Alliance? 23A.
[Mr Irving]
I understand that Karl Marx's "Das Kapital" and Adolf 24Hitler's "Mein Kampf" is on sale at Harrods, but that does 25not mean to say that people who go and shop in the 26crockery department are in some way poisoned, does it, or

. P-51

1in some way associated with those poisonous gentlemen? 2MR RAMPTON: My Lord, I foresee there is not going to be much 3point in my asking Mr Irving to look at the material at 4this stage. However, in the light of this passage in the 5evidence, I will invite your Lordship to look at it along 6down the line because it will form part of my closing 7submissions. 8MR IRVING: Perhaps you should put them to me seriatim if you 9intend that his Lordship rely on them and I can say point 10by point have I seen it before, answer no. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Not seriatim, but what I think would be 12helpful and I think would be right, if I may say so, would 13be for you to put maybe a couple of them by way of 14representative samples. 15MR RAMPTON: I will simply put their ideology. One need not go 16any further than that. 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: Where, as a matter of record, would I find 18National Alliance? 19MR RAMPTON: You would find the literature behind Rebecca 20Gutman's statement which is in file ---- 21A.
[Mr Irving]
That is right. That is where I saw it too. 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
--- C1, tab 2. 23A.
[Mr Irving]
That is where I saw it for the first time and, frankly, 24I thought what on earth has it got to do with me, which is 25precisely why these witnesses should have been called so 26they could have been cross-examined, in my view.

. P-52

1MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are now going to have the 2opportunity ---- 3A.
[Mr Irving]
It is not quite the same thing. 4Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
--- to comment on the literature. 5A.
[Mr Irving]
It is not quite the same thing, though, is it? 6MR RAMPTON: My Lord, the document I wish to refer to is the 7second document of the appendix to Rebecca Gutman's 8statement. The front page says: "What is the National 9Alliance?" Ideology and programme of the National 10Alliance. Copyright 1993". 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Has Mr Irving got a copy of this? 12MR RAMPTON: I am hoping he will be given one. 13A.
[Mr Irving]
Can I draw your attention to page 1 which is one of the 14leaflets for one of the meetings that is relied on, 15apparently, and there is not any reference whatsoever to 16the National Alliance. That is the Tampa function, is it 17not? 18MR RAMPTON: True, but that was, as you acknowledge in your 19diary, a National Alliance event? 20A.
[Mr Irving]
I say it subsequently turned out that the organizer was 21National Alliance. 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, this is 1998, Mr Irving, not 1995. 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do I already have this file that has just 24been handed in? 25MR RAMPTON: I am afraid mine is anonymous. You have got your 26own C1 bundle, my Lord, I think.

. P-53

1MR JUSTICE GRAY: It seems to be differently made up. 2A.
[Mr Irving]
Can we, first of all, ask what paragraph of Gutman's 3report relies on this document so we can fit it into the 4constellation of evidence, so to speak? 5MR RAMPTON: 14, I think, I am told. This is another National 6Alliance meeting at which you spoke, you see, Mr Irving, 7in 1998. It might be worth looking at some of this. Does 8your Lordship have it there? 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I am just puzzled. I do not think 10I have ever had this file. I may be wrong about that, 11anyway. 12MR RAMPTON: My Lord, may I first draw attention to parts of 13the Rebecca Gutman's statement? This is the Civil 14Evidence Act evidence, paragraph 10 on the fifth page, the 15eligibility requirements of the National Alliance 16are: "Any White person (a non-Jewish person of wholly 17European ancestry) of good character and at least 18 years 18of age who accepts as his own the goals of the National 19Alliance and who is willing to support the programme 20described herein". It continues: "No homosexual or 21bisexual person ... no person with a non-White spouse or a 22non-White dependant ... may be a member". Notice, 23Mr Irving, the "white" wherever it appears has a capital 24W. Now paragraph 14 ---- 25A.
[Mr Irving]
Can I draw your attention to paragraph 3 first? 26Q.
[Mr Rampton]
By all means.

. P-54

1A.
[Mr Irving]
The flyer made no mention of the National Alliance. She 2points out that the function had no National Alliance 3presence apart from these leaflets that were, apparently, 4offered on some table somewhere else in the building. 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
But for somebody, Mr Irving, like you who already knew 6that it was the National Alliance who was organizing the 7meeting, that really does not matter, does it? 8A.
[Mr Irving]
Are you going to lead evidence that I knew in advance it 9was the National Alliance organizing the meeting? 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I am suggesting to you it must have been perfectly 11obvious. 12A.
[Mr Irving]
That is something different, is it not? 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
This is an old friendship, Mr Irving. 14A.
[Mr Irving]
Is this the consensus of opinion again or is it something 15for which you have evidence? 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, please. You have seen the evidence in your own 17diary. You know the National Alliance, do you not? 18A.
[Mr Irving]
Will you take me to the evidence in the diary? 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: We have just been through it, Mr Irving. I 20do not think we need to go through it again. 21A.
[Mr Irving]
This is a different meeting, my Lord. 22MR RAMPTON: Yes, different meetings, three years later? 23A.
[Mr Irving]
It is conflating different meetings, if I can use that 24word. If he relies on this document, then, of course, we 25have to look at the actual meeting where the witness 26obtained this document which was, apparently, not a

. P-55

1National Alliance meeting. 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
We will just have a look at paragraph 14, if we may? 3"Inside the room there was a table set up with 4Mr Irving's books and copies of this latest newsletter. 5Across the room there was" ---- 6A.
[Mr Irving]
"Across the room". 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
What? 8A.
[Mr Irving]
"Across the room", in other words, nowhere near me. 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
How big was the room, Mr Irving? 10A.
[Mr Irving]
About twice as big as this. 11Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"Across the room there was a table set up for the National 12Alliance with books, fliers and cassette tapes. I picked 13up a selection of the material on offer. This material is 14at appendix pages 11 to 106", and so on and so forth, 15"including a flier advertising Mr Irving's books, a 16handwritten photocopied flier advertising Mr Irving's next 17lecture and a publication entitled 'David Irving's Action 18Report dated 20th July 1998'." 19 Now, Mr Irving, can we have just a quick look at 20the policy document? 21A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, I will just draw your attention once more to the 22page before it, page 1, which makes no mention whatsoever 23to this being a National Alliance function. Do you accept 24that? 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I accept it does not say it. I certainly do not accept 26that you did not know that it was. That is quite

. P-56

1different. 2A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, if it was a National Alliance function, then 3why would it not have said so on the actual flier? 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Perhaps because the National Alliance are slightly nervous 5about making too much publicity for themselves outside the 6magic circle? 7A.
[Mr Irving]
Your own witness said there was no evidence of it being a 8National Alliance meeting. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: You have made that point; I have taken it on 10board. 11A.
[Mr Irving]
So what possible relevance, whatever leaflet was on the 12table 100 feet away from me ---- 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am bound to say I regard it as being 14relevant to know what sort of an organization it is that 15you have addressed on three occasions? 16A.
[Mr Irving]
My Lord, I object to the suggestion that I was addressing 17an organization. I was addressing my people who had come 18from all over Northern Florida to hear me speak at a 19function organized by this gentleman. I am sure it was a 20slip of the tongue, but I would hate it to go on the 21record unchallenged. 22MR RAMPTON: Inside the front cover, "What is the National 23Alliance?" we read this: "Building a new White world", do 24we not? 25A.
[Mr Irving]
What are we looking at? 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: Headline.

. P-57

1MR RAMPTON: "Building a new White world". 2A.
[Mr Irving]
80? 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Oh, sorry. I think it is called C1, tab 2, 4page either 3 or 80, according to your preference. 5MR RAMPTON: We notice, as I said a moment ago, the date of 6this document is 1993, so it was written before your visit 7to Cleveland in 1995, your visit to Tampa in 1995 and your 8visit to Tampa in 1998? 9A.
[Mr Irving]
It is another lie, Mr Rampton, I am afraid. Look at page 109 -- I am sorry, page 86. Top left-hand corner of the 11box. Do you see some figures there? 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, yes, Mr Irving. The copyright date is 1993. This 13may be a revised or updated version perhaps. 14A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, I am telling you this document appears -- I am 15saying I have never seen it before -- to be dated October 161996. 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
In which case it was in existence at the date of this 18speech by you at Tampa 1998, was it not? 19A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, but you cannot rely on it for what happened in 1993. 20I may be wrong but ---- 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think you are wrong, but I am not sure it 22tremendously much matters. 23MR RAMPTON: That is one of the areas where it matters not 24least to me whether you are right or wrong, Mr Irving. 25Can you turn over the page, please? I am not going to 26wade through all that acres of sludge on the first page

. P-58

1all about -- I will read "Summary statement of belief", if 2I may, bottom right-hand column: "We may summarize in the 3following statement the ideology outlined above. We see 4ourselves as a part of nature, subject to nature's laws", 5nothing very controversial about that, one may think? 6A.
[Mr Irving]
I do not know where you are. 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"We recognize the inequalities which arise as natural 8consequences of the evolutionary process and which are 9essential to progress in every sphere of life". Again, 10somewhat uncontroversial. "We accept our responsibilities 11as Aryan men and women to serve for the advancement of our 12race in the service of life and to be the fittest 13instruments for that purpose that we can be." Then if you 14turn over the page we are beginning, Mr Irving, you may 15agree, to enter familiar territory. 16A.
[Mr Irving]
In what respect? 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
In the respect that this is, one might think, simply an 18English, a modern English American version of Nazi 19ideology. 20A.
[Mr Irving]
So what? I mean, so what? What has that got to do with 21me. 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"White living space". You fuel these people with your 23thoughts about the Holocaust, Mr Irving, that is why it 24has got to do with you. 25A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, has it occurred to you I may go there and correct 26their opinions? I read them the documents they do not

. P-59

1want to hear. Has this possibility occurred to you? 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
When did you last address a meeting of the South Balham 3Trotsky Society, Mr Irving? 4A.
[Mr Irving]
Mr Rampton, you are perfectly familiar with my policy 5which says I accept invitations from whichever body 6invites me, left or right. 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, my question was put ---- 8A.
[Mr Irving]
If they choose not to invite me, that is their own loss. 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No comment, Mr Irving. 10A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, you asked me a question and I gave you an answer. 11Q.
[Mr Rampton]
The answer to my question is never, is it not? 12A.
[Mr Irving]
If they invite me, I will come. I cannot force myself on 13them. 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"White living space". "In spiritually healthier times, 15our ancestors took as theirs those parts of the world 16suited by climate and terrain to our race, in particular 17all of Europe and the temperate zones of the Americas, not 18to mention Australia and the southern tip of Africa", 19note. "This was our living area and our breeding area and 20it must be so again. After the sickness of 21multiculturalism which is destroying America, Britain and 22any other Aryan nation in which it is being promoted, has 23been swept away, we must again have a racially clean area 24of the earth for the further development of our people." 25Does that reference to the "sickness of multi-culturalism" 26in Britain have any resonance for you, Mr Irving?

. P-60

1A.
[Mr Irving]
Not really, no. 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You do not remember the remarks you made in South Africa 3about God working out the Final Solution remorselessly by 4means of AIDS against homosexuals and blacks? 5A.
[Mr Irving]
I think if you are going to rely on a passage like that, 6you should see the actual words that I used in the context 7I used them. 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Do you remember the remarks ---- 9A.
[Mr Irving]
In particular, use the actual words and not your 10vulgarized recalled version. 11Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Do you remember the remarks you made about feeling queasy 12when you saw black people playing cricket for England? 13A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, because they are better than us. 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Do you remember ---- 15A.
[Mr Irving]
And I am sorry about it. 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Do you remember that you reported that it gave you a 17shudder when you were welcomed at Heathrow about Pakistani 18immigration officials? 19A.
[Mr Irving]
And it turned out that you associated the word "Pakistani" 20with coloured when I would have been equally queasy if it 21had been a German standing there checking my passport -- 22probably even more queasy. 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Do you remember saying that you wanted Trevor McDonald, 24the famous black news reader, relegated to reading the 25news about muggings and drug busts? 26A.
[Mr Irving]
Have you never listened to Dave Allen on television

. P-61

1telling similar jokes and not being prosecuted for racial 2incitement? If somebody tells a joke about a black man 3and a Rabbi and a Irishman, is that serial racism? I 4mean, where does hypocrisy end and real indignation start? 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Shall we read on? "We must have White schools", all these 6"Whites" have capital Ws, I point out, "we must have 7White schools, White residential neighbourhoods and 8recreational areas, White workplaces, White farms and 9countryside"? 10A.
[Mr Irving]
I think you will find the Daily Telegraph also capitalizes 11the word "White" and "Black". 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
All you are doing is putting a number of other rogues in 13your gallery, Mr Irving, by these remarks. However, let 14us read on. 15A.
[Mr Irving]
You have upset at least one Correspondent, I am afraid. 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"We must have no non-Whites in our living space", and you 17know from their definition that that includes Jews as 18non-Whites. "We must have no non-Whites" ---- 19A.
[Mr Irving]
What an extraordinary remark. 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
--- in our living space us and we must have open space 21around us for expansion", etc. etc. etc. Then read down, 22drop your eye, please, to "an Aryan society": "We must 23have new societies throughout the White world which are 24based on Aryan values and are compatible with the Aryan 25nature. We do not need to homogenize the White world. 26There will be room for Germanic societies, Celtic

. P-62

1societies, Slavic societies" -- in that respect more 2generous, perhaps, than the Nazis -- "Baltic societies and 3so on, each with its own routes, traditions and language. 4What we must have, however, is a thorough rooting out", 5Ausrotten, Ausrotten, Mr Irving, "of Semitic and other 6non-Aryan values and customs everywhere". 7A.
[Mr Irving]
All very interesting, but what has it do with me? 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It has everything to do with you, Mr Irving. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, you say that this is, as it were, 10news to you. 11A.
[Mr Irving]
I read it with the same interest that your Lordship has. 12These people have obviously ---- 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you just wait for the question, then you 14will see what I am wanting to know. How do you react to 15this sort of stuff? 16A.
[Mr Irving]
It is a most appallingly badly written piece of 17propaganda. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Badly written? 19A.
[Mr Irving]
I am reading it now for the first time and it is 20head-shaking stuff, is all I can say. I keep on saying 21what is it doing in this courtroom frankly. I am sure it 22interests Barbara Gutmann no end and it interests the 23Defence no end, but it does not interest me in the 24slightest this kind of stuff, because wherever it was it 25was not within my cognisance and I do not intend to retain 26it in my memory quite frankly.

. P-63

1MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving, can you put aside that file; I do not 2think I need to come back to it, that National Alliance 3document, and take back the RWE 1 file, please, and turn 4to page 14. 5A.
[Mr Irving]
RW1? 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
RWE 1, yes, in tab 2 where we were and turn to page 14, 7please. First of all, actually I think we had better 8perhaps start at page 11, as this will give us the context 9for what you write on 25th July 1990. The entry for the 107th December 1996, again at Tampa, and again I suggest 11quite obviously a National Alliance meeting, leave the 12first line: "I shook off the Australians around 2 p.m.". 13They were the Australian film crew that were following you 14around, were they not, Mr Irving? 15A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"And scooted on ahead to Tampa, arriving at 4 p.m. Set up 17room nicely". 18A.
[Mr Irving]
I set up the room, in other words; it was not somebody 19else setting up the room for me. 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
So you must have seen the National Alliance banners, must 21you not? 22A.
[Mr Irving]
Were there any? 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
We have seen them on film, in this courtroom. 24A.
[Mr Irving]
On this particular occasion? 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. This film that we have shown in court. We did not 26show the whole of it. We just saw you standing on a

. P-64

1podium you speaking like an inverted CND sign, the 2National Alliance banner a few feet away from your left 3shoulder. 4A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, of course it must have been that because that was the 5Australian film. 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Exactly. "Set up room nicely. Good audience at 7 p.m. 7Around 90 to a 100 people. Their book sales were not 8commensurate. Too many young people. I gave a few books, 9too, to lighten a load and I had four boxes of Goering 10(that is your book) to each hard paperback with P and 11his/her name is not given to us". 12A.
[Mr Irving]
No, Pat Ryan. 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"Vincent Breeding decided he had to deliver a Nazi-type 14introduction and preparation which I tried hard to defuse 15by my remarks about that and the Swastika t-shirts, Nazi 16tattoos, etc., will give the Australians any amount of 17ammunition to use against me in their feature. What 18short-sighted, mindless types I am surrounded with. 19Despair"? 20A.
[Mr Irving]
Will you please read on. 21Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Certainly. "To my disenchantment, the Australian 22television team spent some time in the foyer interviewing 23obvious Nazi crack pots, so I shall stop co-operating with 24them and they can whistle for tomorrow's interview, then 25that is the Australians". 26A.
[Mr Irving]
That is right.

. P-65

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"I had one of the crack pots informing the Australians 2loudly that Rupert Murdoch is obviously a secret Jew. 3Aargh! I shall set out early for Key West. That is the 4end of this mini book I am speaking to". 5A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
So there were a lot of Nazi-looking types? 7A.
[Mr Irving]
Nazi crack pots, yes. 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Nazi-looking types. 9A.
[Mr Irving]
"Nazi crack pots" are the words I use. 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Nazi-looking types, Mr Irving. You did not like that 11because you thought that that appearance could be 12exploited against you by the television crew. 13A.
[Mr Irving]
I did not like it because that is not my chosen company. 14I cannot prevent -- it is a free world, particularly in 15the United States where they believe in the freedom of 16speech -- I cannot stop people wearing what they want; 17I cannot stop people cutting their hair the way they want 18to; I cannot stop people coming into a public meeting, but 19I express my obvious displeasure at it. 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
A bit like those nice friendly young men we saw in the 21video tape of Halle in 1991. It is nothing to do with; 22you cannot help it if Nazi, Neo-Nazi ---- 23A.
[Mr Irving]
Is it the ones waiving the red flags or their opponent? 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, the red flags were not your opponents. Professor 25Funke told you clearly that was one sections of the 26neo-Nazi movement in Germany.

. P-66

1A.
[Mr Irving]
That is why there is a long line of police holding them 2apart. 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, can we now look at page 14. This is you at the 4what I call the National Alliance event in 1998, two years 5later. 6A.
[Mr Irving]
You call it the National Alliance event? 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Oh, there is no question. 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: The fact is that they there were National 9Alliance events, so you were wrong to suggest that I was 10guilty of a slip of the tongue. You may be whether you 11knew about it knew that that was the organisation. 12A.
[Mr Irving]
This is 1998, my Lord, and I held up to your Lordship the 13invitation which has no reference whatsoever on it to 14National Alliance, no logo, no inverted CND sign, just a 15---- 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: Wait for the question. 17MR RAMPTON: Let us look at the diary entry at the bottom of 18the page, shall we Mr Irving: "July 25th 1998. Tampa 19Florida", again. Then there is a square bracket with 20three dots in it. I am coming back to that, Mr Irving. 21A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"5 p.m. Over to Bess Western. Good function at 7 p.m. 23About a 100 there. Good book sales". Vincent Breeding, 24remember him from 1996? 25A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, he learned his lesson from my lecture. 26Q.
[Mr Rampton]
He is the National Alliance organiser, is he not?

. P-67

1A.
[Mr Irving]
That I do not know. I am sorry, that I did not know, let 2me correct that. 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"Better behaved this time. His young men were dressed in 4suits or blazers, standing impassively at the corners. No 5skinheads, neo-Nazis, thugs or jack boots in evidence. No 6doubt, the press will tell their readers otherwise". What 7you worried about, Mr Irving, is not the presence of 8neo-Nazis. You are worried about the dent in your public 9image, the public knowledge of the presence of neo-Nazis 10will make, are you not? 11A.
[Mr Irving]
No, I am worried about the press lying. I have seen press 12reports in this courtroom saying the courtroom is filled 13with skinheads in the audience, and I do not think any of 14us have ever seen that. That is what has been in the 15press reporting around the world on this particular trial, 16that my skinhead supporters are packing the benches here. 17I am very familiar with this kind of press reporting. 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, I said I would come back to look at that 19ellipsis in square brackets we find in that diary again. 20A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 21Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I would like you to look at a couple of documents, 22please. This is also taken, partly from a discovery and 23partly from a document which you produced in court. 24Mr Irving, you said repeatedly in this court, when 25cross-examining my expert witnesses, that you have 26disclosed the whole of your diaries.

. P-68

1A.
[Mr Irving]
On disk, yes. 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. 3A.
[Mr Irving]
You have received them on disk. 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
If you look at the first of these documents ---- 5A.
[Mr Irving]
Let me just qualify that, please. I disclosed all of 6those that were discoverable. I may be wrong but my 7belief is that the diaries were discoverable up the time 8the writ was served. Am I right, my Lord? 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Oh, yes. 10A.
[Mr Irving]
And when was the writ served, September 1996? 11Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Look at the entry for 2nd June 1998. 12A.
[Mr Irving]
Which is after the writ was served. 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
That depends, Mr Irving. Your analysis of law is a little 14short. 15A.
[Mr Irving]
Perhaps we ought to ---- 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Discoverability depends not on the date of the writ; it 17depends upon, subject to legal professional privilege, 18relevance. 19A.
[Mr Irving]
Perhaps his Lordship can lecture me on this point, but you 20ask me whether I had disclosed everything that was -- you 21put to me the sentence that I had withheld nothing ---- 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, come on, let us not waste time on 23this. It is quite obvious that you disclosed something in 24relation to June 2nd 1998 ---- 25A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 26MR RAMPTON: Yes, and now would you look at the second sheet,

. P-69

1which is what you produced in court. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- and that is after the writ. The point 3is that there is an ellipse in what you disclosed, as I 4understand it. 5A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 6MR RAMPTON: If you look at the second two pages of that little 7clip -- it is two and a half pages, this is something you 8wanted to use in court so you produced it for our 9edification during the course of this trial. 10A.
[Mr Irving]
No, I did not. Which one? 11Q.
[Mr Rampton]
The large three-page document. 12A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Headed "June 2nd 1998, Chicago Illinois". 14A.
[Mr Irving]
No, you asked me for the summary of the Himmler letters to 15his mistress, and I have gave that entire summary, that 16entire day's entry in my diary. 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
That is an entire entry in your diary? 18A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
So, it is not right to say that we have had the whole of 20your diaries, is it? Look at the difference in length. 21This is four lines long and this is two and a half pages. 22A.
[Mr Irving]
Perhaps we should have a lesson from his Lordship about 23what is discoverable and what is not. 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let me take it in the sequence which I 25understand it to be in. 26A.
[Mr Irving]
The writ was served in September 1996.

. P-70

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Do not worry about whether the writ was served; that has 2nothing to do with it. You, is it right, originally 3disclosed an extract from your diary of June 2nd 1998 4which consisted about four and a half lines? 5A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
There was then, as I understand it, a request from the 7Defendants that you disclose more of that entry whereupon 8one gets ---- 9MR RAMPTON: No. It was something that Mr Irving himself 10produced voluntarily to answer some question about the 11Himmler diaries. 12A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right. So then you voluntarily disclosed 14additional from that day's diary entry? 15A.
[Mr Irving]
About 10 days ago, yes. 16MR RAMPTON: So we must not be misled, must we Mr Irving, to 17thinking that the diary entries that we have in this court 18are anything like the complete diary entries? 19A.
[Mr Irving]
His Lordship is aware of the fact that a lot of private 20material that has been taken out, a lot of personal 21material to which you are not entitled. 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Of course. I, being the lawyer here, Mr Irving, or one of 23the lawyers, have no problem with the obliteration (that 24calls a Court of Appeal authority for it), from disclosed 25documents of material that is irrelevant, or that is 26legally professionally privileged, no problem at all. My

. P-71

1question here is, in relation to 25th July 1998, there is 2an ellipse, does that ellipse disguise a reference to the 3National Alliance or not? 4A.
[Mr Irving]
That is a very proper question and I will certainly have 5it answered. I can send you the entire diary entry. 6I will even ask you for undertakings, but I think that 7I can say with honesty that, to my knowledge, I have 8redacted nothing out of the diaries which is properly 9discoverable. 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
What do you know about the British National Party, 11Mr Irving? 12A.
[Mr Irving]
I know more about them than I know about the National 13Alliance. 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Tell me what you know about the British National Party, 15please? 16A.
[Mr Irving]
What the Germans call a "verlorenes Haufen" - a lost 17heap, a band of hopeless right-wingers going nowhere. 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
But you speak to them, do you not? 19A.
[Mr Irving]
No. 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Or you have done? 21A.
[Mr Irving]
No. 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Tab 5, please, in the right-wing extremist file, page 2A 23for example, diary entry for some date in June 1983, 24second paragraph: "4.30 p.m. Train to Leicester. Spoke 25there to 27 people at a British National Movement meeting 26organised by Ray Hill".

. P-72

1A.
[Mr Irving]
You are asking me about the British National Party, 2right? 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. What is different between the British National 4Movement and the British National Party? 5A.
[Mr Irving]
I am not totally ignorant. I assume there is a 6difference, otherwise I would have not written that. 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Turn over the page, please. This is 17th July 1990, a 8letter from ---- 9A.
[Mr Irving]
Seven years later. 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
--- Geoffrey D Brown. "British National Party, Yorkshire 11region. Dear Mr Irving, further to our telephone 12conversation today, I am writing to confirm that we would 13be very happy for to you come up to Leeds on Friday 14th 14September to address a special northern regional meeting 15----". 16A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
" --- whilst the bulk of the audience will no doubt be 18from the BNP. It is expected that there will also be 19people attending from other groups such as the Monday Club 20Yorkshire Area and something called English Solidarity". 21A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Last line: "Again, many thanks for accepting our 23invitation". 24A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. It is very similar to the functions in America where 25somebody who is a local functionary of some political 26group is inviting me to come and address an umbrella body

. P-73

1which all sorts of functions will come. If you look at 2the diary entry which covers ---- 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, come on, that is letter on the 4stationery of the British National Party. 5A.
[Mr Irving]
--- all these jumped up people, you notice he then gives me 6his private address to reply to. He is inviting me as a 7person, my Lord. 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are you inviting me to accept that this is 9not an invitation to speak, and an invitation by the 10British National Party to speak at a British National 11Party meeting. 12A.
[Mr Irving]
He says that the bulk of the audience will, no doubt, be 13from the BNP, and that I accept. It is also going to be 14totally hybrid. There are going to be people from the 15Monday Club which is another disreputable group, and 16English Solidarity. If you look at my diary entry which 17is on page 5, my Lord, you will see that there is not the 18slightest reference to me being at the BNP function. 19MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving, you do give the most appalling hostages 20it fortune, if I may say so. Please turn to page 7. 21A.
[Mr Irving]
Perhaps I can say that this is mark of an honest witness, 22that I am speaking from memory, I have not prepared for 23this, I have not rehearsed. We are all hostages, not so 24much to fortune as to bad memory, looking at events in 251983, which is 17 years ago and 1990 which is 10 years ago 26----

. P-74

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Now we are coming to 1993. 2A.
[Mr Irving]
--- and I speak at, as I have said many times, 190 or 3sometimes 200 functions a year. 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Page 7, please. 5A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"British National Party, in Kent. Dear Mr Irving, the 7British National Party is organising a rally in central 8London on the afternoon of Saturday 6th November. It is 9expected that several hundred people will attend. You are 10hereby invited to attend as a guest speaker". 11A.
[Mr Irving]
And I refused. 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You refused? 13A.
[Mr Irving]
End of story. 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You refused? 15A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. Sorry. So your BNP file is rather thin, I am 16afraid. 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Well, turn to page 8, will you. You are in key West. 18A.
[Mr Irving]
I am sorry, which tab was it again? 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
The same tab, page 8, bottom of the page: "12 midday, 20Kirk Lyons phoned". 21A.
[Mr Irving]
Tab 8 you say? 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: No. Page 8, tab 5. 23MR RAMPTON: "12 midday. Kirk Lyons phoned. Going to London 24November 2nd to November 9th for BNP meeting". Is that 25you or Kirk Lyons? 26A.
[Mr Irving]
Mr Lyons, he is a lawyer.

. P-75

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
What is his connection with the BNP then? 2A.
[Mr Irving]
I have no idea; he is an American lawyer. 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No idea? 4A.
[Mr Irving]
No. 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
How do you know he is an American lawyer? 6A.
[Mr Irving]
Is it relevant? 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. 8A.
[Mr Irving]
You asked me what his connection with the BNP is and the 9answer is I do not know. 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I am mildly interested in your associates. Mr Irving. I 11am much more interested in you personally, of course? 12A.
[Mr Irving]
Speaking of my first lawyer, who was Michael Rubenstein 13who was my lawyer for 25 years or 20 years and may be 14familiar to this court. I am quite happy to go through 15all the lawyers I have employed in my life. 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Many of my best friends are Jews too, Mr Irving. I want 17to go back now, if I may, some 50 years or so. 18A.
[Mr Irving]
So the BNP file was rather slim. Can we agree on that? 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
That is your comment, Mr Irving. You have given one 20dishonest answer already in relation even to so slim a 21file as the BNP, which is that you it did not go to the 22BNP me in Leeds, and you told us in answer to our 23question, answer 45, "I have no connection with the 24British National Party nor have I been following its 25progress, nor do I have any knowledge of its official aims 26or policies".

. P-76

1A.
[Mr Irving]
I think that is a very reasonable and fair answer. It 2turns out that I attended one semi-BNP function 23 years 3ago or 17 years ago or something like. 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
1990, Mr Irving. 5A.
[Mr Irving]
Ten years ago. 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Then you said: "From memory I have never spoken at a BNP 7meeting". 8A.
[Mr Irving]
If you want to hang your hat on that then you are at 9liberty. 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, I have a whole row of pegs for my hat, thank you, 11Mr Irving. 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, what is puzzling me a little bit 13is why you troubled on the 26th October refer to the fact 14that Mr Lyons was going to London for the BNP meeting? 15A.
[Mr Irving]
Mr Lyons is an acquaintance of mine and he told me he was 16going to go London, that is all. He probably wanted to 17know if I was going to be in London at that time and he 18could come and drop in on me, but that is all. I mean, my 19Lord, I can be quite plain and say had I attended the BNP 20meeting your Lordship will be familiar with the fact that 21they have had my entire diaries and they would have 22dredged that little morsel out of the diaries and dangled 23it before this court. It is dishonest of them to have 24suggested any different. In view of the fact they have 25had 20 million words of diaries and these are the only 26references to the BNP, that is a minuscule, almost

. P-77

1frantic, attempt to associate me with them. 2MR RAMPTON: Describe the BNP? You seem to have some knowledge 3of them which I am afraid I do not have, but you tell me 4who they are, the BNP, while I search for a document? 5Hopeless right-wing, is that right, going nowhere? What 6did you mean by that, hopeless right-wing going nowhere? 7A.
[Mr Irving]
Their attempt to establish a right-wing alternative party 8in this country which is, as I understand from newspaper 9accounts, riven by internal dissension, by poor quality, 10officers. I do not know. I do not follow them develop. 11Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Who is Mr Anthony Hancock who in Munich describes himself 12as Mr Michael Carter? 13A.
[Mr Irving]
Are you asking if he has any association with the BNP? 14I do not know. 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No. I am asking you who he is, what his political stance 16is? 17A.
[Mr Irving]
I think he is a right-winger. 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
What do you mean by a right-winger, free market? 19A.
[Mr Irving]
Somebody who is to the right-wing of me, shall I say. If 20I describe him as being right-wing, then he is right-wing. 21Q.
[Mr Rampton]
So he would like black people to be sent back to wherever 22their ancestors came from, that kind of thing, is it? 23A.
[Mr Irving]
I imagine so, yes, but I have not had learned political 24discussions with him, so perhaps I should not give that 25answer. 26Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I am sorry, my Lord, there has been a hitch in the

. P-78

1administration, I am afraid. Mr Irving, do you remember 2the question arose, first of all, in Professor Evans' 3report of a letter written to his wife probably sometime 4in 1942 of a German officer called Schaultz du Bois? 5A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Do you remember telling this court some days or weeks ago 7that you were not aware of the contents of that letter? 8A.
[Mr Irving]
I cannot remember what I told the court, but I can tell 9you now what my position is. 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Please do. 11A.
[Mr Irving]
At the time I was researching the background of the Bruns 12Report, checking on the names in the report, finding out 13who was who, I read the book by Professor Gerald Fleming, 14the relevant parts of that book, and Professor Gerald 15Fleming had done research into the same shootings at Riga, 16and he had managed to obtain a copy of the letter which 17Schaultz de Bois had written in 1942, and I read the lines 18in the Fleming book relating to that letter. In other 19words, I have not read the actual letter but I know the 20letter exists. 21Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, indeed you do. You were I think asked by his 22Lordship, this is day 22, which is 17th February 2000, 23page 103, his Lordship asked you this at line 23: 24 "Is it your case, Mr Irving, because you must 25put it", because you were cross-examining Professor Evans, 26Mr Irving, "because you must put it clearly and

. P-79

1straightforwardly, that you were unaware of what 2Mr Schaultz de Bois said in this letter?" Mr Irving: 3"Yes, and your Lordship will have heard from the 4cross-examination over the previous ten minutes that I do 5not attach very great importance to the remarks by 6Canaris." We can ignore most of that sentence, except the 7"yes", Mr Irving. It was not a straightforward answer, 8was it? 9A.
[Mr Irving]
Ah! 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You know very well what was in the Schaultz de Bois 11letter, did you not? 12A.
[Mr Irving]
I am sure his Lordship is familiar with the problem with 13transcripts in court, that when a witness is having 14something read it him and there is a pause and the witness 15says "yes" as though to say, "Yes, I hear what you are 16saying", right? This should not be taken as being, yes, 17I agree with what you are saying, but, yes, I hear what 18you are saying. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: I hope we are not going to treat all your 20answers in that light. 21A.
[Mr Irving]
I think your Lordship is capable of seeing the difference. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: I certainly see the difference. 23A.
[Mr Irving]
What I would call a substantive yes rather than a nod. 24This is mine. Can I have it back now, please? 25MR RAMPTON: Yes, exactly. Indeed so. 26A.
[Mr Irving]
This is the Gerald Fleming book in my hand.

. P-80

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It is indeed. The reason why that letter comes into the 2case, Mr Irving, as I expect you will remember, is that it 3contains an account of what happened when the message got 4back to Hitler -- you will find it on page 98, will you 5not, it is in German, but you will recognize the passage. 6It is just above a red marking by you, is it not? 7A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Read out what it was reported to Schaultz de Bois that 9Hitler had said after he learned of the Riga shootings. 10It is just before your red marking. 11A.
[Mr Irving]
I have to find it first. 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: Schaultz de Bois went it Canaris to get him 13to intercede with Hitler? 14MR RAMPTON: That is right. He wrote a letter to his wife 15apparently reporting what Hitler's reaction had been. 16A.
[Mr Irving]
I am not deliberately delaying anything. I am just trying 17to find the actual passage. 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I think it is on page 98. 19A.
[Mr Irving]
OK I am sorry. Yes, here we have it. This man, who went 20in and out, he is talking about Canaris obviously. 21Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, obviously. 22A.
[Mr Irving]
This man, who went in and out at the Fuhrer's, was to tell 23the Fuhrer the consequences and the atrocities of these 24methods once more in a most penetrating manner. No, he is 25said to have done this whereupon the latter, Hitler, is 26said to have said, and then comes the quotation: "Mein

. P-81

1Herr, you want to go soft, do you? I have to do that 2because after me there will not be anybody else to do it". 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Right. Now, that is some evidence, is it not -- I am not 4saying it is the strongest evidence in the world, of 5course not, Mr Irving -- that Hitler thought it his 6job -- Hitler, his job -- to abolish the Jews and kill 7them? 8A.
[Mr Irving]
It is some evidence, yes. 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. Why have you never brought that to the attention of 10your readers? You have known about it since 1982. 11A.
[Mr Irving]
I have known about it since roughly the same time as 12I found the Bruns book, yes. 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Professor Fleming sent you a copy of his book, the German 14copy, which I think came out in 1982, did it not? 15A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
If you look carefully at that copy, just flick through the 17pages, you may agree with me that you have in fact read 18the whole of it up to page 104. 19A.
[Mr Irving]
No. I think I set this out at the time I gave the book to 20you. I obviously dipped into the first 17 or 18 pages. 21Let us see where the markings end. I think 27 was where 22I stopped reading. 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
See if you can find the next marking after 27. 24A.
[Mr Irving]
Then I put it away. Then, when I needed a source to look 25up details on the Bruns Report, I picked it up and looked 26specifically at the Bruns passages. You will see the ink

. P-82

1is a different colour. 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Sorry, I did not mean to interrupt. Would you look at 3page 88? 4A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
There is one of your markings there, is there not? 6A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, and I write "oy" in the margin. 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
There is something said that you do not like, I suppose? 8A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. It is what I would say to him. If he had read this 9out to me, I would have said "oy". 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
There is a slight diversion. What is it about that 11passage you did not like? 12A.
[Mr Irving]
I do not know. Let us have a look. 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
We have a photographic copy of the relevant part of this. 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am following. 15A.
[Mr Irving]
Oh yes. On the basis of the liquidation order issued on 16November 10th and 11th to the newly appointed senior 17police chief and SS chief in the Baltic, who was Jeckeln, 18the order issued by Himmler and Hitler, I have underlined 19the words "Himmler and Hitler" and that is where I have 20written "oy" in the margin as though to say, "OK, Himmler, 21I agree but how are you just sliding in the words 'and 22Hitler' as well"? 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
He no doubt has reached the position in 1982, which you 24have now reached in this court for the first time, that 25Hitler authorized the shootings in the East. 26A.
[Mr Irving]
Are you asking me a question?

. P-83

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, I am. That is right, is it not? 2A.
[Mr Irving]
Let me just explain why I have written "oy" then next to 3it because that may be part of the answer. This is a book 4which has been written for the purpose of disproving me, 5as he admits himself, and this is admitted in the reviews, 6and this is the evidence on which he relies in disproving 7me, to prove that it is the Fuhrer's wish. In fact the 8subtitle of this book is, "It is the Fuhrer's Wish", and 9it is that actual quotation, the so-called liquidation 10order, "tell Lohse it is my order and it is also the 11Fuhrer's wish". I have written in the margin, saying "oy, 12is that as good as it gets?", the same as I have sometimes 13said to you, Mr Rampton. 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, Mr Irving. 15A.
[Mr Irving]
One had expected better, same as his Lordship has 16sometimes said to me, in fact. 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Turn back two pages, will you, from that marking to page 1886? 19A.
[Mr Irving]
I did notice on the opposite page they are relying on the 20Wetzel letter, which of course the Eichmann manuscript now 21challenges as being a forgery. 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
That matters not to me in the least, Mr Irving. 23A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
As we discussed earlier today in this court, recent 25discoveries have very little bearing on your competence or 26honesty as an historian. Page 86 Mr Irving. What is it

. P-84

1that Professor Fleming is reciting on the top of that 2page? 3A.
[Mr Irving]
He is referring to the Muller document, about which of 4course I have made representations to this court, dated 5August 1st 1941. 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. The Muller document saying the Fuhrer is to have 7running or continuous information, or reports, about the 8work of the Einsatzgruppen in the East. 9A.
[Mr Irving]
Got to be kept au courant. 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Laufend is the German. 11A.
[Mr Irving]
I was using a French phrase on the work of the 12Einsatzgruppen in the East, yes. 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Do you remember that I put it to you in cross-examination 14that, contrary to what you said in court, you were indeed 15familiar with the Muller order of 1st August? 16A.
[Mr Irving]
You put to me, yes. 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Are you saying you did not read this passage in Fleming's 18book? 19A.
[Mr Irving]
I have to say that you are asking me about something 18 20years later but I can say with great confidence that, as 21there are no kind of markings on those pages, then, with 22the high degree of probability, I did not read them. 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Then I asked you by reference to this very passage, "Have 24you read Gerald Fleming's book?" And your answer is, 25"I have not read that book". 26A.
[Mr Irving]
I have not read the book as such, no. But may I also say

. P-85

1that had I seen that passage about the Muller document, 2which is very interesting, obviously, I would have written 3to my friends at the Institute of History or the very next 4time I went there, because that is the source he gives 5there, footnote 172, and on my next visit to Munich after 61982 I would have said, "Can I, by the way, have a look at 7that file, please?" and, obviously, that is one indication 8that I did not see that document. But I have to say that 9I will have submissions to make about that document when 10the time comes unless the Defence can produce the exact 11file of where it is stated to be. 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Do not worry; we are working on it, Mr Irving. Don't you 13worry about that. 14A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, I am just reminding... 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
We have plenty of time and lots of contacts. Many 16rabbits ---- 17A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, I need time after I have been told the file number, 18of course, to make use of it. 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
There are many rabbits in this burrow. Do you remember, 20Mr Irving, that in your account of the conference on 16th 21and 17th April 1943 you transposed a remark made by Hitler 22on 16th as though it had been made on the 17th? 23A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, that is one of the two errors I have corrected in the 24new edition of my Hitler book. 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I am pleased to hear it. My reason for asking you that is 26this. You have been aware of what the true chronology was

. P-86

1at least since 1977, have you not? 2A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes -- wait a minute, wait -- yes, since 197. 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Martin Broszat pointed it out to you? 4A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Do you remember writing to a Mr Ashton on 31st December 61978? 7A.
[Mr Irving]
Oh, yes, clearly. What did I say? Can we see the letter, 8please? 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I will but I will just read it out. 10A.
[Mr Irving]
I am being sarcastic. 11Q.
[Mr Rampton]
We may not need to get it out. "As for your views on the 121943 Horthy document, I believe I have replied to you 13quite fully about this, drawing your attention to Hitler's 14explicit remark to the Reichs vorweise" one day 15previously? 16A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
--- "to the effect that nobody was asking him to kill the 18Jews"? 19A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
So in 1978 you were fully conscious that Hitler's remark, 21"There is no need for that" ---- 22A.
[Mr Irving]
Was one day earlier. 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
--- was made on a previous day? 24A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
And you never corrected it, did you? 26A.
[Mr Irving]
No. But you know my views on that, Mr Rampton, that

. P-87

1whether the remark is dated in my book on April 6th or 2April 17th, I think that is a very flimsy peg and the hat 3falls on the floor ---- 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I hear what you say, Mr Irving. 5A.
[Mr Irving]
I beg your pardon? 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I said I hear what you say. 7A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, you interrupted me before I had finished. 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
That was the excuse, if I can put it like that, that you 9gave us last time. 10A.
[Mr Irving]
In fact, it is one of the errors I corrected in the latest 11edition because it is a minor error, but it is worth 12picking up. 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. I want to ask you about another document from 1942. 14My Lord, this is the Kinner Report from Zamosk in Poland 15on 16th December 1942. I believe your Lordship will find 16that in file K2, tab 4, page 19A (vi). For once, my Lord, 17we have the English as well as the German. This is an 18English translation, Mr Irving, but you would probably 19prefer to use the German, I do not know. 20A.
[Mr Irving]
I have them both here. 21Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It concerns, does it not, a transport of 644 Poles to the 22work camp at Auschwitz on 10th December 1942, am I right? 23A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
If you turn to look at the second page under the 25subheading or by the underlined subheading "arbeit 26Einsatzfahigskeit".

. P-88

1A.
[Mr Irving]
In German, yes, I have that. 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, or the English. "Capacity for employment as 3labour". We find this: "SS Hauptsturmfuhrer Halmeier", 4in fact, that is a mistake for Almeier, "explained that 5only Poles capable of work should be delivered so as to 6avoid as far as possible any useless burdening of the camp 7and also of the delivery traffic. In order to relieve the 8camp, limited people, idiots, cripples and sick people 9must be removed", the word is "entfernt", "from the same", 10that is the camp, "by liquidation". The word there is 11"liquidation", is it not? 12A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes -- very explicit. 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It is very explicit. There again we see another example, 14as in Himmler's closing speech of 4th October 1943, of 15removal and liquidation, evacuation and extermination 16being used synonymously, do we not? 17A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"This measure", that is to say liquidation, "however 19becomes more difficult to implement because, according to 20an order from the RSHA", the English is translated as "in 21opposition to"? 22A.
[Mr Irving]
"In contrast to", I think. 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, "in contrast to", I was going to suggest that, "in 24contrast to the measures applied to the Jews, the Poles 25must die a natural death." Does that not mean, Mr Irving, 26in fairly unvarnished terms, that whereas Poles must be

. P-89

1kept alive until they die, the Jews can be killed? 2A.
[Mr Irving]
I think that is the interpretation on those words, yes. 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
And this is in relation to procedures at Auschwitz, is it 4not? 5A.
[Mr Irving]
It is in relation to Auschwitz, yes. 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, because Aumeier was at Auschwitz, was he not? 7A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Is that not some sort of rather powerful evidence that 9Auschwitz, so far as Jews were concerned, was so far from 10being a work camp a place where they were being 11exterminated, liquidated? 12A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, I am not saying they were being exterminated; it is 13a place where they are not being protected and ---- 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
They can be killed at will, can they not? 15A.
[Mr Irving]
That is right, yes, according to this document. 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Are you mistrustful of this document? 17A.
[Mr Irving]
No. I am not challenging the authenticity of the document 18at all, but it is ---- 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: But are you challenging what is said here, 20that the policy appears to have been, in relation at least 21to this transportation, that any Jews who were not fit for 22labour would be liquidated? 23A.
[Mr Irving]
The comment I would I make on this document, and obviously 24it is an important document, I am not challenging that 25respect, but is written by an SS, what, Untersturmfuhrer 26which is, what -- I have to look at my military dictionary

. P-90

1and see the rank, but it is an SS corporal, I think. 2Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Well, he is quoting an SS Haupsturmfuhrer which is going 3slightly higher up the hierarchy. 4A.
[Mr Irving]
He is what? 5Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
He is quoting Aumeier. 6A.
[Mr Irving]
But the actual document has written or drafted by an SS 7corporal and we have had this kind of problem with 8documents before, that you have to be very careful if you 9are going to look at actual words used or actual senses 10conveyed, and I do not want to put it more strongly than 11that, just to say that -- I do not want to put it more 12strongly than that. I just want to say that it is -- the 13corporal's language, he is not a lawyer drafting a 14document. 15MR RAMPTON: No, if he had been, Mr Irving, he might have used 16rather more guarded language? 17A.
[Mr Irving]
No, I do not ---- 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
That is the advantage of these janitorial documents, is it 19not, that one sees the truth? 20A.
[Mr Irving]
I agree it is an important document. It says the Jews are 21being killed at Auschwitz and this has not been denied. 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
The word is actually "liquidate"? 23A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"Liquidation". 25A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. Well, that is why I say that this is the kind of 26language the corporals would probably have used to each

. P-91

1other. 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. Now we are going to go even further back in time, 3Mr Irving. We are going to go back via your book Goebbels 41935, 33, 34, and 32, but we are going to do it in one 5sentence, as it were. Have you got your Goebbels book, 6Mr Irving? 7A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. My Lord page. 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
My Lord, page 46 of Goebbels. 9A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
My Lord, this relates to pages 692 to 698 of Professor 11Evans' report. It has to do with criminal statistics in 12Berlin and to some extent Germany but Berlin in 1932 to 13'35, and the way in which Mr Irving has represented the 14Jewish share of those criminal statistics, if I may put it 15like that. 16 Generally speaking, in this part of the book you 17are discussing, in general terms, how it was that Goebbels 18came to be so radical and anti-Semite? 19A.
[Mr Irving]
No. 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
This is general context, is it not? 21A.
[Mr Irving]
I do not think so. I am explaining how Goebbels came to 22be so successful in Berlin with his anti-Semitism, if 23I can put it like that? 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
OK. It does not matter. It is all about Berlin, is it 25not? 26A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, and why his anti-Semitism found a fertile audience.

. P-92

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, in the first, second and third paragraphs on page 46 2there are some references to the Jewish deputy police 3chief, Dr Wernhart Weiss, and then at the bottom of the 4page, it starts: "Dr Goebbels would shun no libel to 5blacken his", that is Dr Weiss's, "name. Instinctively 6carrying on an ancient tradition of name calling he seized 7on Dr Weiss' nickname of 'Isidor' and commissioned the 8scurrilous Nazi marching song about him. He would 9highlight", that is Goebbels, "every malfeasance of the 10criminal demimondes and identify it as Jewish. In these 11closing years of the Weimar Republic he was unfortunately 12not always wrong." 13 So now, Mr Irving, we are getting a recitation 14of the true facts as opposed to Goebbels' propaganda. 15 "In 1930 Jews would be convicted in 42 of 210 16known narcotics smuggling cases; in 1932 69 of the 272 17known international narcotics dealers were Jewish. Jews 18were arrested in over 60 per cent of the cases concerning 19the running of illegal gambling dens; 193 of the 411 20pickpockets arrested in 1932 were Jews. In 1932 no fewer 21than 31,000 cases of fraud, mainly insurance swindles, 22would be committed by Jews". Then we are referred to 23footnote 29 which we will find on pages 547 to 548. 24 The footnote for that last statement "In 1932 no 25fewer than 31,000 cases of fraud, mainly insurance 26swindles, would be committed by Jews", footnote 29 on page

. P-93

1547 says: "Interpol figures" ---- 2A.
[Mr Irving]
Excuse me. The footnote refers to everything ---- 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
OK. 4A.
[Mr Irving]
--- prior to that. 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
That fine. 6A.
[Mr Irving]
Everything after footnote 28, if you see what I mean? Not 7just the last statement. 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I follow that, but it includes the figures given in the 9last sentence, does it not? 10A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 11Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"Interpole figures, in Deutsche Nachrichten-Buro 12(hereafter DNB) July 20th 1935; and see Kurt Daluege, 13'Judenfrage als Grundsatz' in Angriff, August 3rd 1935", 14and then there are some general references about the 15general demimonde. Tell me first, Mr Irving, who is, who 16was, I should say, Kurt Daluege? 17A.
[Mr Irving]
He was the head of the Ordungspolizei which is the order 18police in Germany. 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, Mr Irving. Tell us a wee bit more about him, would 20you? 21A.
[Mr Irving]
Oh, he was a mass murderer later on. He was in charge of 22all the killing on the Eastern Front. 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
He was, what shall I say, an enthusiastic member of the 24Nazi Party? 25A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. And he met his just desserts on the Czech gallows. 26Q.
[Mr Rampton]
So one should be rather cautious, perhaps, about what one

. P-94

1is told by Mr Daluege, do you not think? 2A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, properly cautious. 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Properly cautious. You will see that I have used his 4files which are in the German Federal archives. That is 5what the reference is that you left out. 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I am going to show you what are the references on which 7you have relied. 8A.
[Mr Irving]
No? Yes, this one. 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. Now, the first of these documents, Mr Irving, is a 10written version, probably a draft, in the sense that he is 11going to speak as they say nowadays to it, I rather say 12from it, he is going to speak from, this is Daluege, on 1320th July 1935 at a press conference, is it not? 14A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. I have not seen this typed document. I relied on 15the Gothic typed face one. 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Look at the Gothic one if you prefer because it is 17identical. The sixth paragraph of the Gothic is identical 18to the sixth paragraph ---- 19A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
--- on our pages 16 to 17 of the typescript. Since the 21typescript is easier to read, can we look at the bottom of 22page 16 of this little clip? You will have to forgive me 23if my translation is a wee bit rocky. We will get it 24proper translated, my Lord, in due course. Does it say 25this, roughly speaking: "Even though we have succeeded in 26decreasing the number of cases of fraud in the Reichs

. P-95

1capital to 18,000 in 1934 compared with 31,000 in 1933, 2the damage caused still amounts to over 112.5 million 3Reichsmarks", am I doing all right so far? 4A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
And here we come to the conclusion after further 6investigation that "a considerable or significant part, if 7not the largest, of these fraudulent manipulations are 8still committed by Jews." 9A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Right, where did you get your figure of no fewer than 1131,000 cases of fraud committed by Jews? 12A.
[Mr Irving]
I am just now looking for the original quotation. What 13page was the original quotation? 43? 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It is 47. You have the year wrong, but I am not going to 15criticise you for that. You put 1932 instead of 1933, but 16leave that on one side. 17A.
[Mr Irving]
Have you checked the two books that I give as sources 18there? 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No. I have not checked the two books, Mr Irving. This is 20your primary source. The books have been checked, yes, 21and so I am not on false ground. 22A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes -- well, I will give you a conditional response which 23probably will not satisfy you, and say that if the books 24which are also given in the footnote, there are four 25sources given in the footnote, do not support the year 26which is different from the year contained in the document

. P-96

1you gave me, or do not support the figure of 31,000, then, 2clearly, the same kind of error has occurred here as 3happened with the 1.20 a.m. telegram that in the course of 4writing six separate drafts one after the other this kind 5of error goes ---- 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You have ---- 7A.
[Mr Irving]
--- but it is a conditional response. 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You have effectively doubled, or more than doubled, the 9number of fraud cases attributed by this rabid Nazi 10Daluege to the Jews in Berlin in that year, have you not? 11At the very most, even if the Jews are 50 per cent, it is 12only 15,500 cases attributable, according to Daluege, to 13Jewish perpetrators? 14A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. If you are right, then that is correct, but, I 15mean, I have to say that is a conditional answer not 16seeing all the sources. 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Right. 18A.
[Mr Irving]
And I would not be able to reconstruct that now because 19I no longer have access to the sources that I had at the 20time for the reasons you know. 21Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Why do you say that these are Interpol statistics in your 22footnote? 23A.
[Mr Irving]
Presumably from one of the sources. 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No. Interpol was not actually established as Interpol 25until after the war. 26A.
[Mr Irving]
I am very sorry, but, of course, the Haus an Wannsee, the

. P-97

1famous Wannsee House, where the Wannsee conference took 2place, was the headquarters of Interpol. Interpol was 3actually founded by Reinhardt Heydrich. 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, but, no, it was not called Interpol, was it? 5A.
[Mr Irving]
It was presumably written out in full. 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Even assuming (which I do not) that this was an innocent 7mistake on your part to double the number of offences 8attributable to Jews, do you think it right when your 9source is this man Daluege uncritically simply to take his 10figure as being right? You state it as a fact, you see. 11In probability, he had already doubled the figures at 12least, do you not think? 13A.
[Mr Irving]
You are faced with a problem, of course, when you are 14writing a history of the 1930s, you look at as 15many sources as you can of what sources are available. 16These are the sources from the German Federal archives 17which contain all Daluege's papers. It is very easy to 18say, "Well, why do you take those figures because I do not 19like those figures, why do you not take these figures?" 20You have to take some kind of figures from somewhere, and 21if you are writing the Battle of Britain and you are going 22for a long time to believe Winston Churchill's figures of 23how many Nazi bombers were shot down, and we no know that 24those are wrong. But there we have the benefit of 25complete access to records and you can correct the 26statistics.

. P-98

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
May I suggest, Mr Irving, that if a reputable historian 2were writing about this, he would say, "According to the 3Nazi propagandist, Kurt Daluege, whose figures are very 4probably not reliable" ---- 5A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
--- perhaps as many as 15,500 frauds were attributable to 7Jews", but to assert that that is what Goebbels would find 8in 1932 is just the most appalling distortion of the 9truth, is it not? 10A.
[Mr Irving]
I do not agree. I have made it quite plain what the 11source of this evidence is. You found it, your 12researchers found it. Everybody knows who Kurt Daluege 13was. He was not a Nazi propagandist. He was the head of 14the German police system. He was in a position to know. 15He is giving facts to a learned audience. They would be, 16no doubt, in a position to check and expose these facts if 17they were wrong. I certainly would not have said it was 18an Interpol function if I did not have the evidence for 19it, and I am not going to waste the court's time looking 20in these pages of Gothic script for the actual evidence 21for it, why would I have invented that? And, of course, 22if you look at the rest of the page ---- 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I can think of a simple answer, Mr Irving ---- 24A.
[Mr Irving]
If you had looked at the rest of the page that you did not 25read out, I have relied on the figures from the German 26Federal Statistical Office on the percentages and so on.

. P-99

1I built up a very careful picture from all the regular 2sources and, admittedly, we are -- I beg your pardon. 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
We are going to look at some of those in a moment, 4Mr Irving? 5A.
[Mr Irving]
And, admittedly, in this particular matter we have to rely 6on a dodgy source which is what you are trying to suggest. 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
We do not have to, Mr Irving. 8A.
[Mr Irving]
But then, of course, the Goebbels diaries are dodgy 9sources too. They are diaries written about the arch Nazi 10liar, and you have to pick and choose and that is the 11problem you have when you are writing history about the 12Nazis and it is a problem when you write about history 13about anything. 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Oh, Mr Irving. Where in that Daluege, which is your 15primary source, that Daluege document, do you have find 16any reference to insurance swindles? 17A.
[Mr Irving]
What basis do you have for saying it is the primary source 18when it is a scource of four. 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It is the first source you cite? 20A.
[Mr Irving]
The reason for lumping several sources under one number is 21because otherwise the book is going to look like a rash of 22measles, every single word is going to have a note number 23attached to it. So it is the standard practice that you 24will lump three or four sources relating to the previous 25two or three statements, even if they are gathered up in 26one sentence, into one note number. This does not mean to

. P-100

1say that is the primary source for that statement. 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Can we agree this far ---- 3A.
[Mr Irving]
Have you ever written book? Oh, we had this out before, 4did we not? 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, we have had this before and, yes, I have. It is not 6a very good book, but I have written a book, yes. 7A.
[Mr Irving]
It is quite a difficult task to satisfy all the parties, 8the publishers, the readers and everybody else. 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I do not agree with you, Mr Irving. I do not accept that 10for one moment. This is a case of deliberate distortion 11by you so as to inflate the number of wicked, dishonest 12Jews in Berlin in 1932. That is my case and you may as 13well know it, because what we have got is you double 14Daluege's numbers, at least, you have relied on an 15unreliable source, you have attributed his figures to 16Interpol and you have spoken about insurance swindles 17which are not mentioned in Daluege's document. 18A.
[Mr Irving]
But I am sorry to sound incorrigible. There are four 19sources listed under that footnote, and you have waved one 20source at the court and said, "It is not in this source of 21the four". If you were to do your job properly, you would 22produce the other three scourss and say, "It is not in 23these three either". 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
All the figures, I am told, come from Daluege. How about 25that? 26A.
[Mr Irving]
Who is that or what is that?

. P-101

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
That is a note passed to me by people who know better than 2I and , apparently, better than you, Mr Irving? 3A.
[Mr Irving]
I mean, with the utmost respect for your researchers, if 4they had done their job properly, they would have had 5those books that I cited in court as well, and they would 6possibly even have given me fair warning and said, 7"Mr Irving, we are going to challenge you on these 8figures; do you want to spend the lunch hour or this 9evening just providing the evidence for them?" 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, it was in Professor Evans' report. 11MR RAMPTON: It is all in Professor Evans' report, Mr Irving. 12This document which you now have at the back of that 13little clip is one of Professor Evans' documents. 14A.
[Mr Irving]
I have only got the Daluege report here. 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
What? 16A.
[Mr Irving]
I have only got the Daluege report. 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, it is folded at the back, I hope. It is an A3 size 18page. 19A.
[Mr Irving]
Oh, this one? 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. 21A.
[Mr Irving]
Right. 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Now look at the front of it, will you, please, Mr Irving? 23This is what you might call a slightly more reliable 24source, you may think, because it is the official Berlin, 25it is the official German statistics? 26A.
[Mr Irving]
Is this from my discovery or from elsewhere?

. P-102

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
What? 2A.
[Mr Irving]
Is this from my discovery or from ---- 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, this is Professor Evans'. 4A.
[Mr Irving]
I mean, it is important to know whether this is from my 5discovery or from your own research. 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Why? It is a public document, Mr Irving. 7A.
[Mr Irving]
All right, yes. 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You are the great archive fiend. 9A.
[Mr Irving]
There is no need for that tone of indignation. I am just 10asking a simple question. 11Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Well, Mr Irving, really. Is this a forgery then by 12Professor Irving (sic) and his cronies? 13A.
[Mr Irving]
No, I am sure you are familiar with the point I am trying 14to establish. 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I am not at all, Mr Irving. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I think I understand the point that is 17being made. But let us look at it anyway. 18MR RAMPTON: If you look, you see this is for the whole of 19Germany? 20A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 21Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Is it not? "Statistik des deutschen Reichs", that is the 22whole of the Reich for the year 1932. If you look down 23the left-hand side of this big sheet, we find Nos. 80, 2480B, 80C and 81. Now, in 1932 -- I am going to work 25upwards -- in the whole of Germany, No. 81, there were but 2674 cases of insurance fraud, do you agree?

. P-103

1A.
[Mr Irving]
You say in the whole of Germany, but although I agree you 2have given us the title page of this, this is page 112, we 3do not know if it was the whole of Germany or just a 4province of of Prussia or what. 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I am told it is the whole of Germany. 6A.
[Mr Irving]
Well ---- 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving ---- 8A.
[Mr Irving]
Because I am quite familiar with these statistical reports 9and they are broken down into provinces, and I would like 10the assurance we are not just looking at Berlin or just at 11Prussia. 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
So far as it is within my power to do so, I give you that 13assurance because that is what I am told and I regard my 14source as reliable. Now, even if it were just Berlin, 15Mr Irving, just 74 cases of insurance fraud were committed 16by persons of all ethnic backgrounds in Berlin, if you 17like, but in fact for the whole of Germany during 1932. 18Where are these over 50 per cent of 31,000 insurance 19swindles committed by Jews? 20A.
[Mr Irving]
We are looking at 80B and 80C, is that right? 21Q.
[Mr Rampton]
81 is ver sicherungsbetreff which I think means insurance 22fraud? 23A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. I was looking at the betreff, the ones above, which 24total something like 70,000, 60,000. 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Betreff, 80A, that is plain fraud is 50,000 plus? 26A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes.

. P-104

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Repeat frauds, that is 80B [German] 7,000 and a bit? 2A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
And then something about minor fraud offences, 80C, 312. 481, insurance fraud -- insurance swindle, to use your word 5-- 74 cases, yes? 6A.
[Mr Irving]
The overall total of frauds ---- 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Is 57,888 for the whole of Germany? 8A.
[Mr Irving]
And Daluege says that in Berlin it was 32,000 -- of 9course, we are looking at different years, are we not? 10One is 1932 and here it is 1934 or thereabouts. 11Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, Mr Irving, I am sorry. Leave Daluege out of this, if 12you will? You made an assertion of fact in your book 13about the number of frauds committed by Jews, mainly 14insurance swindles, in 1932. I am suggesting that any 15reputable historian would have gone to this document, as 16opposed to some rabid Nazi's utterance to a press 17conference, to find out what the truth was. 18A.
[Mr Irving]
Are you saying that Paul Veiglin is a rabid Nazi and that 19Walter Keolein, who is a very well-known German historian 20of the police, is a rabid Nazi? 21Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Those are your other references, are they? 22A.
[Mr Irving]
These are my other sources -- two of the other, two of the 23four sources used, yes. 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Well, then if we find that your figures and statements are 25not supported by either of those sources, will you accept 26without equivocation that you have here committed a

. P-105

1deliberate distortion, inflation of the figures against 2the interests of the ---- 3A.
[Mr Irving]
Obviously, if you find that those books do not support the 4statements I made, then I would accept that I have made an 5error. But, of course, I am not going to accept that such 6an error is deliberate because I have got no reason to 7make a deliberate error. You do not establish a 8reputation by making deliberate errors and I am baffled 9that anyone could suggest that you do. 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Well, I think I have about 25 in my pocket by now, 11Mr Irving, and that is the 26th. Thank you. Now I want 12to deal with the Goebbels diaries. My Lord, may I stop 13now because it is quite intricate and it is 1 o'clock? 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, but before you depart, can we work out 15where we are going to put these? 16MR RAMPTON: It is in a sense a new section because it is a new 17period. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Shall we put it at the back of what I 19am calling J3? 20MR RAMPTON: Yes. Could your Lordship put it at in the 21separate tab at the back of N1? 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: Back of N1. 23MR RAMPTON: Because it is an historical document. 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right, 2 o'clock. 25(Luncheon adjournment)26MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving, before I pass from the criminal

. P-106

1statistics for 1932 to a question or two about the 2Goebbels diaries, can I pass you up a piece of paper? It 3is a sheet from the same German government document that 4we were looking at this morning, and there is one for the 5judge, please. (Same handed). I would like you to look 6at the section headed "Summer A bis D" for the year 1932. 7Tell us, please, to what area or areas of Germany these 8statistics relate? 9A.
[Mr Irving]
Which? I am sorry, the bottom one, right. 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
What does the heading say? 11A.
[Mr Irving]
It says the crimes and misdemeanours against Reich laws 12that have been tried by German courts. 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. That disposes of that question. This relates to the 14whole of Germany, does it not? 15A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, apparently. 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Thank you very much. 17A.
[Mr Irving]
This particular page. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is the page before the following page, is 19it? 20A.
[Mr Irving]
It is not, my Lord, no. 21MR RAMPTON: No, there are some pages missing, but you can see, 22if you look at the top of page 112, which we already have, 23that the numbers run serially. At the beginning we start 24with 1 and by 112 we are at 63B. 25A.
[Mr Irving]
That may or may not be the case, I cannot comment on that, 26but there are pages missing. I am sure your researchers

. P-107

1would not mislead us deliberately. 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I hardly think that. The missing pages are here, if you 3would like to see them. (Same handed). I feel quite 4confident in saying that these run serially from 1 through 5(as the Americans say) 115. Anyhow, have a look and see 6if you agree with me that these are the statistics for the 7whole of Germany for 1932. 8A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, they do. 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Do you agree? 10A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, they do. 11Q.
[Mr Rampton]
They do? Good. Excellent. Perhaps we could have that 12back because it is not mine. I said Goebbels diary, but I 13have been interrupted because we do not have sufficient 14copies of the documents I want, so that will take about a 15quarter of an hour to do. I want to pass to something 16else instead, if I may, which is your assertion that the 17gas chambers were an invention of British propaganda 18during the war. Do you agree that you have, on a number 19of occasions, made that assertion? 20A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. This is the Foreign Office clip of documents you 21gave me recently? Is that right? 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. Has the judge got a copy of the clip of documents on 23this topic? 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: No? 25A.
[Mr Irving]
I do not know if I still have it. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: I thought you meant a new clip. The old

. P-108

1ones? 2MR RAMPTON: I feel cautious about that, but yes. File L1, tab 36. 4A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. I still have it here. 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
My Lord, this relates to two different years, 1942 and 61943. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. 8MR RAMPTON: 1943 starts at page 11, and I will deal with 1942 9first, if I may. Through no fault of ours, the passage of 10time, inefficiency of typewriters in those days, some of 11this is a bit difficult to read, but never mind. The 12first page -- does your Lordship have it now? 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I have. 14MR RAMPTON: The first page contains some typescript in the 15top, and some manuscript in the bottom. 16A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, doing the best I can, the date of this, 18I think, is 8th August 1942. 19A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It says "Reported German plan for extermination of all 21Jews". Do you see that? 22A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
This is a Foreign Office document, is it not? 24A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Then it says, I think, "Geneva telegram No. 174, Message 26for Mr Sidney Silverman, Chairman of World Jewish

. P-109

1Congress, London, from Mr Gerhard Riegner, Secretary of 2World Jewish Congress, Geneva. Mr Riegner has received a 3report stating that in the Fuhrer's headquarters a plan 4has been discussed and is under consideration for the 5extermination after deportation to East of all Jews in" -- 6can you read the next bit -- "in the areas occupied or 7controlled by Germany. Action is planned for the autumn. 8Ways and means are still (something or other) and include 9the use of prussic acid". Hydrogen cyanide, that is, is 10it not? 11A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. The full text is on the next page actually in 12typescript. You could have read it. 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I know that, but I just wanted to see the first date at 14which this information was relayed to the Foreign Office 15in London via Mr Sidney Silverman via Mr Gerhard Riegner 16in Geneva. 17A.
[Mr Irving]
It was received 11th August 1942. 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Exactly. 17th August 1942, which is the next page, that 19information is laid out. Says the Foreign Office, "Have 20received by telegraph through His Majesty's Consul General 21at Geneva the following message", and then in a legible 22form we see it on the next page, page 3. 23A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I will read this: "Following for Mr Sidney Silverman, SS 25Silverman MP, chairman of British section, World Jewish 26Congress London, from Mr Gerhard Riegner, Secretary of

. P-110

1World Jewish Congress, Geneva. Received alarming report 2stating that in the Fuhrer's headquarters a plan has been 3discussed and is under consideration, according to which 4all Jews in countries occupied or controlled by Germany 5numbering three and a half to four millions should after 6deportation and concentration in the East, be at one blow 7exterminated in order to resolve once and for all the 8Jewish question in Europe. Action is reported to be 9planned for the autumn. Ways of execution are still being 10discussed, including the use of prussic acid. We transmit 11this information with all the necessary reservation as 12exactitude cannot be confirmed by us", that is Geneva. 13"Our informant is reported to have close connections with 14the highest German authorities, and his reports are 15generally reliable. Please inform and consult New York". 16 That message from Geneva is an authentic 17message, or was an authentic message, was it not, 18Mr Irving? 19A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. I am very familiar with these documents. 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It was not an invention of the British propaganda machine, 21was it? 22A.
[Mr Irving]
No. 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
So why do you maintain that the use of homicidal gas 24chambers employing prussic acid, hydrogen cyanide, 25Zyklon-B, was an invention of British propaganda? 26A.
[Mr Irving]
Because the following pages make plain the skepticism of

. P-111

1the Foreign Office about this particular report. 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Well, unless you want to go ---- 3A.
[Mr Irving]
Page 5, at the foot of it, says, "I do not think we should 4be wise to make use of this story in propaganda to Germany 5without further confirmation". 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
And the decision is made not to do so. Do you agree? 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can we take it in stages? The first thing 8is, are you accepting you said that this was all an 9invention of British propaganda? 10A.
[Mr Irving]
My Lord, you will be familiar with the document on which 11I rely, which is a year later than this, signed by 12Cavendish-Bentinck, saying, "we have no evidence 13whatsoever that these things" ---- 14Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
That is why I asked you. I am asking you about whether 15you agree that you have claimed that the lie about the gas 16chambers was an invention, underline "invention"? 17A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. A propaganda story put out by the British in early 181942. 19Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Invented by the British? That is the point. 20A.
[Mr Irving]
And invented by the British propaganda agencies. 21Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
What Mr Rampton is putting to you is that this is a 22message from Geneva that they have had a report. 23A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. They are two separate ---- 24Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
I am not following at the moment why you say it is an 25invention of British propaganda. 26A.
[Mr Irving]
If we abandon gas chambers for a moment, and say, suppose

. P-112

1a message came from Geneva, saying children were having 2their hands hacked off, on the face of it an implausible 3story, which the Foreign Office said, "We find this 4difficult to believe", as it says later in this document, 5"We find no confirmatory evidence" and so on, and then 6later on the propaganda agencies send out reports by the 7propaganda channels, the BBC, Voice America and the rest 8of it, saying, "We have reliable stories that the Germans 9are cutting off children's hands", that would be an 10invention, would it not? 11MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving, may we stick with history, rather than 12fantasy? Here we have a report from Geneva, from 13Mr Riegner, who is not an agent of the British propaganda 14machine, he is an element in the World Jewish Congress, 15that, as, indeed you might say, prophetically turned out 16to be the case, there was a plan reported to him from the 17Fuhrer's headquarters to exterminate the whole of the Jews 18in Europe, or most of them, at one blow by the use, 19amongst others perhaps, of hydrogen cyanide. Now, how can 20it be that that story is, to use your words, an invention 21of British propaganda? 22A.
[Mr Irving]
Which story? 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
This story that you see reported on the page in front of 24you. 25A.
[Mr Irving]
That is two separate things. Riegner is sending a message 26to England to be passed on to Sidney Silverman, reporting

. P-113

1a story which the Foreign Office clearly, from the 2handwritten minutes, do not consider to be part of what is 3actually happening. They say there is no doubt that large 4numbers of Jews are dying. They even used the word 5I think ---- 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: They may not believe it, but they did not 7invent it. That is the point that I was asking about and 8I think Mr Rampton is asking about. 9A.
[Mr Irving]
I hesitate to use the words "hair splitting", my Lord, but 10I think it is quite plain that if in August 1943 11Cavendish-Bentinck, the head of the British Intelligence 12Service, says, "We have no evidence that these gas 13chambers exist", and yet by that time for 12 months 14already the British propaganda agencies have been pumping 15out the message, then that is an invention, and there is 16no other way of interpreting that. 17MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving, the story originated not with British 18propaganda. It originated with a personal organization in 19Geneva, a remarkably accurate story, as it happens. If 20you turn over to page 4, you see the comment at the time 21in August 1942: "Mr Silverman having asked if he could 22see somebody about the cable, Sir Beaugrave Beecham had a 23talk with him this morning, first, Mr Silverman said he 24would let us have some particulars about Mr Riegner -- I 25think it is misspelt -- "whom he regards as entirely 26trustworthy. Secondly, Mr Silverman stated that he had

. P-114

1received reports of transportation of Jews from occupied 2territories in Germany towards the East, which might be a 3confirmation of the alleged plan". 4 Then we see in the following pages -- turn to 5page 5, for example. I do not know whose notes these are, 6probably one of the Allens, but I am not sure about that. 7Yes, it is David Allen. In the middle of the next page 5 8he is talking about atrocious conditions in the East, and 9he says: "Such stories do provide a basis for Mr Riegner's 10report, but they do not of course amount to extermination 11at one blow. The German policy seems to be rather to 12eliminate useless mouths, but to use able-bodied Jews as 13slave labour." 14 In the light of all of that, the Brits, bless 15their little cotton socks, I might say if I were Jewish, 16decide not to make use of this information. Is that not 17right? They put the kaibosh on it, do they not? 18A.
[Mr Irving]
No. You are overlooking one important detail, the 19chronology. Do you remember that I put to one of the 20witnesses, I forget which one it was, the diary evidence 21and other evidence of the propaganda broadcasts, some of 22which were in June 1942, about the use of poison gas, and 23some of which were earlier that year, about the 24deportation of the Dutch Jews to Mauthausen, using poison 25gas? So what is then reported back to us in August 1942 26is interesting, but no more.

. P-115

1MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have forgotten where the evidence is for 2use of this by the British in their intelligence 3propaganda. 4A.
[Mr Irving]
Your Lordship will remember there is a bundle of about ten 5pages of documents, including pages from Thomas Mann's 6diary, and the diary of a man called Ringelbulm, and the 7diary of a man called Viktor Klemporer, recording the 8actual dates that they received these broadcasts. I am 9afraid I do not know which bundles they are in. 10MR RAMPTON: 1943, Mr Irving. Page 12 I cannot read. I hope 11it is legible in your copy. 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am so sorry, Mr Rampton. I appreciate you 13want to get on, but does anybody have any idea where the 14documents -- I suspect they are somewhere in J -- that 15have just been referred to are to be found? 16MR RAMPTON: No. 17A.
[Mr Irving]
My Lord, I can certainly very easily bring in the copies 18again next time I come. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sure I have them somewhere. I would 20like to know where they are. 21A.
[Mr Irving]
I am not as well organized as I should be, I am afraid. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not blame you for that. Could I ask 23Miss Rogers or somebody to try to track them down? 24MR RAMPTON: Do you still feel confident, before we come to 251943, Mr Irving, in saying that the gas chambers were an 26invention of British propaganda?

. P-116

1A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. Based on the evidence that I have seen so far, yes. 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You do? Can we turn to page 13, because I am afraid 3I cannot read page 12. 4A.
[Mr Irving]
Page 12 is the draft declaration of the British and 5American governments. 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. Page 13 refers to a telegram to Moscow, and it is 7said to be based in the main, or taken in the main from 8the aide memoir by the Polish government in another file. 9"This aide memoir", reads this minute from Roger Allen to 10Cavendish-Bentinck, "is in line with a good deal of other 11information which we have received from time to time. 12There can, I think, be little doubt that the general 13picture painted is pretty true to life. On the other 14hand, it is of course extremely difficult, if not 15impossible, for us to check up on specific instances of 16matters of detail." 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have lost you. 18A.
[Mr Irving]
So have I. 19MR RAMPTON: I am on page 13, my Lord. 20A.
[Mr Irving]
Which paragraph are we looking at? 21MR RAMPTON: I read from the top of the page. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: Something has gone wrong in that case. 23MR RAMPTON: In that case something has gone wrong. 24A.
[Mr Irving]
I thought I was going mad. 25MR RAMPTON: It is a minute by Roger Allen dated 27th August 261943. If we had another year, we might get these file

. P-117

1sorted out. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think the problem may be we have not got 3the first page. I think we are missing that document 4altogether. 5MR RAMPTON: It is a minute, Mr Irving, do you see, dated 27th 6August 1943 from Mr Roger Allen? 7A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: We will call that 12A, because there is a 13 9already. 10MR RAMPTON: Yes 12A, to Mr Cavendish-Bentinck. I will start 11again. I understand that the information on which 12telegram number 1190 to Moscow is based is taken in the 13main from the aide memoir by the Polish government in C, 14whatever it is. This aide memoir is in line with a good 15deal of other information which we have received from time 16to time. There can, I think, be little doubt that the 17general picture painted is pretty true to life. On the 18other hand, it is of course extremely difficult, if not 19impossible, for us to check up on specific instances or 20matters of detail. For this reason, I feel a little 21unhappy about the statement to be issued on the authority 22of His Majesty's government that Poles "are now being 23systematically put to death in gas chambers." I expect 24you are familiar with the rest of this document. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Where is the aide memoire, Mr Rampton? 26A.
[Mr Irving]
That is the previous illegible page, my Lord.

. P-118

1MR RAMPTON: That is the one I cannot read. 2A.
[Mr Irving]
To be a draft declaration to be signed by Roosevelt and 3Churchill and they were meeting in Quebec to discuss it. 4MR RAMPTON: Which I think must be the document. Maybe this is 5better. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: You can actually read it fairly well. 7MR RAMPTON: Let me try it: Reliable information has reached HM 8Government regarding the crimes committed by the German 9invaders against the population of Poland. Since the 10autumn of 1942 a belt of territory extending from the 11province of Bialistok southwards along the line of the 12river Bund has been systematically emptied of its 13inhabitants", crossed out "hundreds of thousands of whom 14have been deported from their homes", continuing uncrossed 15out, "in July 1943 these measures were extended to 16practically the whole of the province of Lublin, where 17hundreds of thousands of persons have been deported from 18their homes or exterminated". That is the handwriting. 19"These measures are being carried out with the utmost 20brutality. Many victims are killed on the spot. The rest 21are segregated. Men from 14 to 50 are taken away to work 22for Germany. Some children are killed on the spot. 23Others are separated from their parents, and either sent 24to Germany to be brought up as Germans or sold to 25German settlers, despatched with the women and old men to 26concentration camps, where they are now being

. P-119

1systematically put to death in gas chambers. HM 2government" -- something? 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Reaffirm. 4MR RAMPTON: "Reaffirmed their resolve to punish the 5instigators and actual perpetrators of these crimes. They 6further declare that, so long as such atrocities continue 7to be committed by the representatives and in the name of 8Germany, they must be taken into account against the time 9of the final settlement with Germany. Meanwhile, of the 10war against Germany" -- then I run out, I am afraid, of 11legible words, but that may not matter. 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: Has been finally overthrown. 13MR RAMPTON: Yes. 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is not really an aide memoire, is it? It 15is a proposed communication or release. 16MR RAMPTON: It is a communique, is it not? 17A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It is a proposed communique, making reference to, in 19particular, systematic extermination in gas chambers. 20Correct? 21A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Then, says Allen R to Cavendish-Bentinck on page 2312A apropos that proposed communique, "On the other hand, 24it is of course extremely difficult, if not impossible, 25for us to check up on specific instances or matters of 26detail. For this reason I feel a little unhappy about the

. P-120

1statement to be issued on the authority of HMG that 2Poles 'are now being systematically put to death in gas 3chambers'". Does that look to you, Mr. Irving, like an 4intention to exploit this story for its propaganda value? 5A.
[Mr Irving]
There are two different levels of authentication here. 6What has been put to the Foreign Office is a draft 7telegram to be signed by the two heads of State and 8approved by Marshal Stalin, declaration on the war crimes 9committed by the Nazis and the punishment of the 10perpetrators. At the other level you have black 11propaganda where any kind of lie counts, the kind of stuff 12that was put about by Richard Crossman and Sefton Delmer. 13There are two totally different levels of truthfulness 14involved. The Foreign Office obviously balked at the idea 15of persuading the British and American heads of State to 16sign a document containing a detail of which, as they 17later stated in this same bundle of documents, there was 18no proof, of which they had no evidence. 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Quite. "The only two references", goes on Mr Allen, 20"which I have been able to find in the appendix to this 21Polish aide memoire which deal with this form of execution 22are as follows: (1) Telegram of 17th July 1943 from 23Poland, Commander in Chief, Armed Forces, Lublin District, 24informed me that he had evidence that some of these people 25are being murdered in gas cells there, Maidonek camp. (2) 26Telegram of 17th July 1943 from Poland: 'It has been

. P-121

1ascertained that on July 2nd and 5th two transports'", 2probably about 10,000 people, do you agree? 3A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"Made of women children and old men" ---- 5A.
[Mr Irving]
No. 2,000 people, it would have been. 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
What? 7A.
[Mr Irving]
It would have been 2,000 people. 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"Women, children and old men, consisting of 30 wagons 9each, have been liquidated in gas cells". Did the British 10invent the idea of gas chambers and the Nazis' use of 11them? 12A.
[Mr Irving]
No, but, if you are familiar with the British Foreign 13Office files, then you will be aware that little credence 14was attached to reports from Polish sources. 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, I ask my question again, which you resolutely 16refuse to answer. Did the British invent the story of the 17gas chambers? 18A.
[Mr Irving]
You will not get a direct answer. I am going to draw your 19attention ---- 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am going to direct that you do give a 21direct answer. What is the answer? 22A.
[Mr Irving]
The answer is yes, still, if the word "invent" means 23anything at all. 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
That is fine. That is your position. So these stories 25which are coming back from Poland in 42 via Riegner in 26Geneva, and directly from the Polish people in 1943, they

. P-122

1are simply recycled British propaganda? It has to be so 2if you are right does it not Mr Irving? 3A.
[Mr Irving]
If you are putting something out on the air waves through 4the BBC and black propaganda channels, for which you know 5you have no evidence, and you state in writing in terms 6that you have no evidence, then that is an invention, and 7that is stated quite clearly on page 14 by Victor 8Cavendish-Bentinck himself, the head of the British 9Intelligence Service. 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
The Foreign Office, Mr Irving, took the view, as it had in 111942, that the material that they had received, either via 12Geneva or direct from Poland, was not sufficiently 13convincing to allow of propaganda about this matter. That 14is right, is it not? 15A.
[Mr Irving]
They put it much more strongly in August 1943. 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
But you are not following me, Mr Irving. 17A.
[Mr Irving]
Victor Cavendish-Bentinck wrote: "As regards putting 18Poles to death in gas chambers, I do not believe that 19there is any evidence that this has been done". He is 20head of the British Intelligence Service, the chairman of 21the Joint Intelligence Committee and you cannot climb over 22the document, Mr Rampton. 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I am not trying to climb over it, Mr Irving. I am trying 24to make you face up to its significance. The decision is, 25despite this information received in 42 and 43, that the 26evidence does not stand the case up, so they do not use

. P-123

1it. 2A.
[Mr Irving]
They do not have sufficient evidence to persuade the Prime 3Minister and the President to put their names on a 4document, but they have enough evidence to put the story 5out on the air waves. They are quite happy to put it out, 6although they are quite satisfied that they have no 7evidence that it will stand up. It is good enough for the 8liars, but it is not good enough for the presidents, the 9heads of state. 10MR RAMPTON: When did they put it out, Mr Irving, on the air 11waves? 12A.
[Mr Irving]
They started putting the story out in late 1941, certainly 13in January 1942, they repeat it in June 1942, in November 14and December 1942, there was quite a blitz on the air 15waves with stories about the liquidation of the Jews in 16gas chambers in Poland. It is referred to in a lot of the 17private diaries, and also in the files of the German 18Propaganda Ministry who monitored the British Broadcasting 19Agency. 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
By whom were these broadcasts made? 21A.
[Mr Irving]
They were put about by the BBC. Broadcasts were carried 22by the BBC, which has a monopoly in broadcasting at that 23time, and by the American corresponding channels. 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Do the documents that you have provided to us contain 25transcripts of these broadcasts? 26A.
[Mr Irving]
No. They contain entries either, as I was saying earlier,

. P-124

1in private diaries of the people who listen to broadcasts, 2either in occupied countries or in Germany or they contain 3the monitoring reports that were maintained by the 4propaganda agencies in Germany, who monitored foreign 5broadcasts. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: I would like to see, please, what this 7material is, which I think has probably been produced. 8MR RAMPTON: So would I. No, I do not think so. I would know 9it if I had seen it. 10A.
[Mr Irving]
I think this is one of the cases where your Lordship 11intervened and said, we are not making enough progress. 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Never mind. 13MS ROGERS: The position seems to be this. We have checked 14through the documents which have produced by Mr Irving 15which have been filed gradually in the J files. We cannot 16find any trace of it. In transcript day 20, starting at 17page 40, going over 41 and 42, Mr Irving, I think, in 18cross-examination of Professor Evans raised Thomas Mann's 19diary. 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Page? 21MS ROGERS: It starts at 40, going over to 41. 22A.
[Mr Irving]
If you look for Mauthausen, you will probably find it or 23Dutch Jews, 400 young Dutch Jews deported. 24MS ROGERS: That reference appears on page 42, my Lord, the 400 25young Dutch Jews. 26A.
[Mr Irving]
And that was in January 1942. And then there is another

. P-125

1reference in June 1942 in the ---- 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can we just take this in stages? Thank you 3very much, Miss Rogers. Thomas Mann, he is the novelist? 4A.
[Mr Irving]
He was working for the American propaganda agencies. 5Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
How is that evidence that the British Intelligence Service 6were making use of this information about what was going 7on? He does not have a connection with the British 8Intelligence Service, does he? 9A.
[Mr Irving]
Only in as far as the Allied Intelligence Operations of 10the Office of War Information in Britain and the British 11Ministry of Information were co-ordinated, but it is as 12tenuous as that. In other words, I cannot produce the 13actual missing links there. 14Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
In relation to him or generally? 15A.
[Mr Irving]
In relation to linking Thomas Mann's broadcast with what 16happened in No. 10 Downing Street. 17Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
What do we next have? 18A.
[Mr Irving]
June 1942, would that be the Ringelbulm diary? I 19am saying all this from memory, of course. 20Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
I appreciate that. 21A.
[Mr Irving]
I do not have the documents in front of me. 22Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Yes, you do mention that. Ringelbulm, I have no 23recollection of him at all. 24MR RAMPTON: Who is Ringelbulm? 25A.
[Mr Irving]
I think he is living in one of the ghettos, either in 26Warsaw or somewhere listening, obviously very hopefully,

. P-126

1to BBC broadcasts. 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, it does not say "BBC". It says "broadcasts" about the 3extermination of Jews with poison gas. 4A.
[Mr Irving]
I do not know who else would be broadcasting about the 5extermination of Jews, apart from the Allies. 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You see, Mr Irving, I am puzzled by this. What evidence 7do you have that these stories, I would say factual 8accounts, of what was happening, maybe not in '41, but 9certainly in '42 to '43, emanated from the propaganda arm 10of the British Government? How do you know that these 11people did not pick it up from the Poles or from 12Mr Riegner? 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Or from the Americans. 14MR RAMPTON: Or from the Americans? 15A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, the sources that I quoted refer specifically to 16broadcasts. 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
To what? 18A.
[Mr Irving]
They refer specifically to broadcasts and listening in to 19enemy broadcasts. 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Sure, of course, but a journalist, even in those days, a 21self-respecting journalist, would use material supplied to 22him if it seemed to him to be reliable, would he not? 23What on earth connection do you see in all of this with 24the PWE? 25A.
[Mr Irving]
Because the PWE was controlling the black propaganda from 26Britain at this time. This was Robert Bruce Lockhart and

. P-127

1Richard Crossman. 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Well, Mr Irving ---- 3A.
[Mr Irving]
But I mean ---- 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
--- what you are telling us is not ---- 5A.
[Mr Irving]
--- I am at a disadvantage here because I do not have the 6diaries in front me and I am not able to look for the 7collateral material which I would clearly do if I knew 8I was going to be cross-examined on this. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: I would like to see it. 10MR RAMPTON: So would I. 11A.
[Mr Irving]
I have made a note of it and I am going to produce another 12clip. 13MR RAMPTON: We do not need it now. This can lie in wait for 14next week or the week after. But would you agree with me 15on the basis of the original documentation which we have 16seen, there is (a) evidence that the story was a real 17story, whether a true story or not, but a real story and 18that it did not originate with the British? 19A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, but it is of a low grade evidence. 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
That is as may be. 21A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Is there also evidence before us that on account of what 23the British then saw as its low grade quality, they 24decided not to use it? 25A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 26Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Thank you.

. P-128

1A.
[Mr Irving]
But they did not find it, of course, in the high grade 2sources where they would have expected to find it like the 3intercepts. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton, before you leave this, in view of 5what Mr Irving said about broadcasts, could you invite 6Mr Irving to look at page 15 in this same tab, tab 6? 7A.
[Mr Irving]
Is this the actual declaration as released, my Lord? 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, it is not for me to say. 9A.
[Mr Irving]
Am I looking at the right document? 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is not for me to say. 11A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, is it the declaration headed "Confidential Future 12Release" or? 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. 14A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not know what it is, but it seemed to me 16it might be relevant. 17MR RAMPTON: I do not have the same pagination as your 18Lordship. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: In my version of this it is the last page. 20MR RAMPTON: Yes, is this, Mr Irving, 19 it is in my version, 2115 in yours. Is this a United States document? 22A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, Department of State. 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It is dated August 28th 1943? 24A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It says, well, I will read it: "Confidential release for 26publication in the morning newspapers of Monday, August

. P-129

130th 1943, which do not appear on the streets before 9.30 2p.m. Eastern [something]", no, it is not Standard Time, I 3thought it would be, but it is not, BMT. "Sunday, August 429th 1943, not to be previously published, quoted from or 5used in any way not to be sent abroad before 7.30 p.m. 6Sunday, August 29th 1943". So it is an embargo? 7A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
What it says is "Declaration on German crimes in Poland. 9Trustworthy information has reached the United States 10Government regarding the crimes committed by the German 11invaders against the population of Poland. Since the 12autumn of 1942 a belt of territory extending from the 13province of Bialystok southwards along the ... (reading 14to the words) ... has been systematically emptied of its 15inhabitants. In June 1943 these measures were extended to 16practically the whole of the province of Lublin where 17hundreds of thousands of persons have been deported from 18their homes or exterminated. These measures are being 19carried out with the utmost brutality. Many of the 20victims are killed on the spot. The rest are segregated. 21Men from 14 to 50 are taken away to work for Germany. 22Some children are killed on the spot. Others are 23separated from their parents and either sent to Germany to 24be brought up as Germans or sold to German settlers or 25dispatched to the women and old folk concentration camps. 26The United States Government reaffirms its resolve to

. P-130

1punish the instigators and actual perpetrators of these 2crimes. It further declares that so long as such 3atrocities continue to be committed by the representatives 4and in the name of Germany, they must be taken into 5account against the time of the final settlement with 6Germany. Meanwhile, the war against Germany will be 7prosecuted with the utmost vigour until the barbarous 8Hitler itinerary has been finally overthrown". That is an 9official United States press release, is it not? 10A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 11Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Do you notice something about that press release, 12Mr Irving? 13A.
[Mr Irving]
That is a strange question. 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
There is no reference to gassing or gas chambers. 15A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
So, on the advice, no doubt of the Department of State in 17the United States and of the Foreign Office in Great 18Britain, the reference to gas chambers in the draft has 19been removed? 20A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, because it was -- there was no adequate evidence. 21Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, the Allies and, in particular, the British PWE 22decided against using, unhappily perhaps, but they decided 23against using the gas chamber story as propaganda, 24correct, am I not? 25A.
[Mr Irving]
This is not a propaganda declaration; this is a warning to 26the German leaders, to the Italian leaders, that

. P-131

1retribution is on its way to them. It is nothing to do 2with propaganda. Propaganda was what we broadcast of 3which there is any amount of evidence. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I would like to see it because at the 5moment I do not have any no evidence at all. 6A.
[Mr Irving]
I have great confidence on this score. 7MR RAMPTON: I have been given Claimant file F, my Lord, on 8page 61 your Lordship will find it, I hope. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think we have had this before. F became 10something else. 11MR RAMPTON: You should have a separate file F, my Lord, a 12small file F. It had originally, I think, a two-page 13index and the document in question is page 62. I think 14Mr Irving should have it too, please. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think this what I had in mind. 16MR RAMPTON: Yes. This is the so-called Ringelbulm diary. It 17has, I am afraid, no year date on it. But I will read it 18just the same because it is rather interesting. But I do 19think Mr Irving should have it. Could somebody please 20find Mr Irving a file F? I hope, Mr Irving, that your 21index page, your contents page, 62, there are two pages 22from this book? 23A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
294, 295, is that right? 25A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 26Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Can we look at 295 which is on the right-hand side in my

. P-132

1copy? 2A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"Friday, June 26th has been a great day for OS", what is 4"OS", see introduction", well, that is hopeless. I have 5not got the introduction. What is "OS", Mr Irving? 6A.
[Mr Irving]
No idea. 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
OK. "This morning the English radio broadcast about the 8fate of Polish Jewry. They told about everything we know 9so well, about ... (reading to the words)... Lemburg and 10Chelmno, and so forth. For long months we had been 11suffering because the world was deaf and dumb to our 12unparalleled tragedy. We complained about Polish public 13opinion, about the liaison men in contact with the Polish 14government in exile. Why were they not reporting to the 15world the story of the slaughter of Polish Jewry? We 16accused the Polish liaison men of deliberately keeping our 17tragedy quiet so that their tragedy might not be thrown 18into the shade. But now it seems that all our 19interventions have finally achieved their purpose. There 20have been regular broadcasts over the English radio the 21last few weeks treating of the cruelties perpetrated on 22the Polish Jews, Belzec and the like. Today there was a 23broadcast summarizing the situation. 700,000, the number 24of Jews killed in Poland was mentioned. At the same time 25the broadcast avowed revenge, a final accounting, for all 26these deeds of violence".

. P-133

1 Which year, Friday June 26th, Mr Irving? 2A.
[Mr Irving]
1942. 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
1942. Do you see anything in there about gas chambers? 4A.
[Mr Irving]
No. 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Am I right that the Polish Government in exile at the 6instance, no doubt, of people in Poland had been, as it 7were, hacking at the Allies to pay attention to these 8stories for some considerable time? 9A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
These stories were not invented by the British Government, 11were they? 12A.
[Mr Irving]
Inasmuch as when the British Government put them out, they 13had no firm evidence that they were true and they later 14summarized that they had no such evidence, they were. 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Now I think we know where we are. 16A.
[Mr Irving]
My Lord, on the broadcasts in their clip there is a number 17of docments which I did not actually rely on when 18I cross-examined Mr Klemperer. When we next come 19together, I will produce a schedule of broadcasts and what 20they contained in this respect, I think, as far as I can. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is there anything else in this clip at the 22moment that ---- 23A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, I think it would take up too much of the court's 24time to read the 10 or 15 pages. 25Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
I am not too bothered about that. I do not think it would 26take very long. Do you rely on the ----

. P-134

1A.
[Mr Irving]
But what I am really saying is ---- 2Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Do you rely on the diaries of Klemperer? I am sorry, 3Mr Rampton, it is just that once one is on this topic, one 4really needs to ---- 5A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, I do not really want to do it in a hurried manner 6and if I do it in a slow manner, then your Lordship will 7get impatient. What I am really saying is that we do not 8want to go back and have a look at the files to see what 9else I can dredge up. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: We have got 64. I am just looking for 11references to a broadcast. Page 64 is Klemperer. 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Page 67, I think. Could you just read the top of page 67, 13Mr Irving? 14A.
[Mr Irving]
I do not have those numbers on this. 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Sorry, page 442 of whatever it is. 16A.
[Mr Irving]
"Millions of German people did, in fact, listen 17attentively and regularly to German language BBC 18broadcasts, even though it was illegal for them to do so. 19Moreover, the BBC German service took considerable pains 20to convey accurate and believable information about the 21annihilation of the Jews. These efforts were particularly 22noteworthy considering that they were frowned on by the 23British Foreign Office which did not regard Jewish 24persecution as an efficacious theme for propagandists to 25take advantage". 26MR RAMPTON: So Mr Irving, your story is now this, is it not,

. P-135

1if this story was an invention, it was the BBC, the wicked 2journalists and their informants who invented it, it was 3not the British Government? Is that right? 4A.
[Mr Irving]
I think at all material times the BBC was in arm with the 5British Government and the Ministry of Information. It 6certainly did not operate in a kind of independent way. 7I think it would be useful if I do draw up a schedule of 8references, including whether it specifically referred to 9gassing or not and the dates. This will... 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I am moving to another topic now, my penultimate topic, 11Mr Irving, you will be pleased to hear. The first page in 12this clip should be a page from the transcript in this 13trial on day 23, Monday, 21st February 2000, is it? 14A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Do you see what his Lordship was asking you on page 140? 16You were cross-examining. 17A.
[Mr Irving]
Gita Sereny, yes. 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You were cross-examining Professor Evans about a passage 19in his report which asserted that you had falsely accused 20Gita Sereny, or having ignored Gita Sereny's assertion 21that Christa Schroeder had said that Hitler knew about the 22Holocaust. I am paraphrasing. 23A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Justice Gray at line 18 on page 140 asks you this: "Is 25it your case that there is not any record, whether tapes, 26notes or anything, of Gita Sereny's interview with Christa

. P-136

1Schroder and she is, in fact, making the whole thing up?" 2Mr Irving, "Yes". Is that still your position? 3A.
[Mr Irving]
I beg your pardon? 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Is that still your position that Gita Sereny made the 5whole thing up? 6A.
[Mr Irving]
On the basis of what I have seen in her discovery in the 7other action, yes. 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Now we are going ---- 9A.
[Mr Irving]
You are familiar with the fact that I requested to see all 10her-- I had discovery from her. 11Q.
[Mr Rampton]
The date of this exchange between his Lordship and you is 12Monday, 21st February 2000. 13A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I am now going to show you some papers from your case 15against Gita Sereny and whichever newspaper it is, 16I forget, the Observer, I think. The second page in this 17little clip is a letter from you to the solicitors for 18those Defendants ---- 19A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
--- Lovell White Durrant, dated 4th January 2000. You say 21this: "I note from my discovery item No. 545 that your 22client, Sereny, took notes of her conversations with 23Gunsche, von Welloff and Schultzer and that Frau Schroeder 24also wrote to her" -- notice those words, please. "These 25items appear to be missing from your client's discovery 26and I would request that" ----

. P-137

1A.
[Mr Irving]
"She". 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
--- "you give disclosure" or "she" it might be "give 3disclosure of these within a reasonable amount of time". 4I do not know what the second document is. 5A.
[Mr Irving]
To which I received no reply. 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I see. 545 is what you enclose with your letter. 7A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It is a letter from the Associate Managing Editor of the 9Sunday Times dated 13th October 1997 to you: "Dear 10Mr Irving, thank you for your letter. With regard to the 11first point, you will be interested to see the enclosed 12letter which appeared in the Sunday Times two weeks after 13publication of the original article. It indicates that a 14misunderstanding on this point has already been publicly 15acknowledged and corrected. With regard to the second 16point, there is no such necessity. We have records of 17Gita Sereny's conversations with Walter Gunsche, Colonel 18von Welloff and Richard Shultzer supporting what was said 19in our article. Christa Schroeder's comments on the 20subject of Hitler and the extermination of the Jews were 21conveyed to Miss Sereny in a letter. Under the 22circumstances, therefore, I think you will agree that 23there is no basis for the complaints made in your letter". 24 In response to your letter to them, Lovells 25replied on 27th January: "Thank you for your letter dated 264th January 2000. We have raised your request with

. P-138

1Miss Sereny and will revert to you again in this 2connection once we have received her response. We take 3the opportunity to note that we have not", and so on and 4so forth. That is something else. 5 Then they write again on 10th February, this is 6but 11 days before you gave your evidence in this court. 7A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"We write further to our letter dated 27th January 2000, 9having now discussed your request with Miss Sereny. The 10documents which you seek have already been disclosed. 11There were no notes in Miss Sereny's conversations was 12Gunsche, von Welloff and Schultzer, only tape recordings. 13These have been disclosed to you. The letter to 14Miss Sereny from Frau Schroeder was disclosed as item 2.57 15in schedule 1 part 1 of the same list". The rest is 16irrelevant. 17 The last page, please, here is the letter, 18please tell me what the penultimate paragraph says. The 19first of the two letters printed on this page is from Frau 20Schroeder herself, is it not? 21A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. "Dear Miss Sereny, I regret that for health reasons 22I have not been able to receive you", for an interview, in 23other words. So there was no interview. 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Carry on. 25A.
[Mr Irving]
"As far as the telephone conversation that you sketched of 261976 is concerned, what you write about, what you mention

. P-139

1about Himmler in connection with me appears, you appear to 2have fallen victim of having heard, misheard something. 3Himmler has not", underlined "not", "spoken with me", 4underlined "with me", "in this manner. I have tried to 5arrange an interview between you and his, Himmler's, 6daughter, but I have unfortunately failed for which 7I request that you leave out this passage. As far as the 8Judenfrager is concerned: I consider it improbable or 9unlikely that Hitler did not know -- that Hitler knew 10nothing. He had frequent conversations with Himmler which 11took place as tete a tete. More than that, 12I unfortunately cannot tell you as I am ignorant of the 13things". 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Now 10 days after being reminded of that letter because it 15had been in the discovery originally according to 16Lovells ---- 17A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
--- his Lordship asked you and I repeat: "Is it your case 19that there is not any record, whether tapes, notes or 20anything, of Gita Sereny's interview with Christa 21Schroeder and she is, in fact, making the whole thing up?" 22Answer by Mr Irving: "Yes". A false and a knowingly 23false answer, is it not, Mr Irving? 24A.
[Mr Irving]
To this I have to say two things. The first thing, not in 25any order of priority, is that, as is evident from the 26correspondence which I just read out, there was no

. P-140

1interview. She did not get to see Mrs Schroeder. 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
What, you mean you cannot interview somebody by telephone? 3A.
[Mr Irving]
Not in my book. Secondly, I have to confess that even 4after receiving that letter from the opposing solicitors 5in the other action, I did not look into the 6correspondence and discovery files for reasons which are 7probably evident for you. To do so would have taken me 8probably 20 or 30 minutes to find the file and look up the 9letter, and at present I am under very great time 10pressure. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sorry, I am not following that at all. 12On 10th February 2000, you were sent a letter which 13specifically directed you to the document. It would not 14have taken you a second to find it. 15A.
[Mr Irving]
My Lord, my files are not in any very great shape at 16present. They are in great shape for this action, but 17they are not in great shape for an action which has not 18yet been set down even. And to have looked and found the 19Sereny discovery and to have found this particular 20document -- all I can say is that I am stating here, I am 21asserting here, that I did not look up this document and, 22even having looked it up, it has not altered my position 23because I knew perfectly well ---- 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
But I am sorry, Mr Irving, on 4th January 2000 you 25specifically requested documents relating to what Frau 26Schroeder had said.

. P-141

1A.
[Mr Irving]
Very well. In preparation of this case, I have gone 2through our entire discovery for the action against 3Penguin Books which is the current case, which is what 4this number is on the top right-hand corner of the Sunday 5Times letter, 545. When I took this letter out, my eye 6lit on the fact on paragraph 2 that there were quite 7clearly interesting items that Sereny had not disclosed to 8me, as she should have. I wrote a routine letter to the 9solicitors for the opponents in that action, saying, "Oh, 10by the way, I note you have not given discovery of those 11documents, please now do so", which is a perfectly 12reasonable act. They then wrote back that letter. But 13I already knew from Christa Schroeder that she never 14interviewed Miss Sereny for personal reasons. 15MR RAMPTON: But she did not make it up, did she, Mr Irving? 16A.
[Mr Irving]
She did not make what up? The statement? 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
The assertion that Hitler probably knew what was going on 18because he had these four hours, frequently had these four 19hours conversations closeted with his friend, Heinrich 20Himmler? 21A.
[Mr Irving]
Now, that is not the question you asked me, is it, or the 22question which his Lordship asked me? 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: Have a look at it again if you want to. 25MR RAMPTON: "Did she make it up?" Answer; "Yes". 26A.
[Mr Irving]
"Is it your case that there is not any record of Gita

. P-142

1Sereny's interview with Christa Schroder?" That was the 2first question to which the answer was quite correctly, 3"Yes", "And that she is, in fact, making the whole thing 4up?" in other words, the interview, answer: "Yes". And 5I take issue with the way you put her response. She did 6not say she considered it probable that Hitler knew. She 7said she considered it improbable that Hitler did not know 8or that he knew nothing, rather, was the exact language. 9That is not quite the same as you have said. I do not 10want to split hairs, but let us stick to the actual 11language. 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Would you like to withdraw the allegation of little 13invention you made against Miss Sereny in this court not 14very long ago? 15A.
[Mr Irving]
No, I would not. Miss Sereny has stated that she 16conducted interviews with a number of Hitler's staff, who 17disavowed what I had reported of my very lengthy 18interviews with the same people. It is a matter of 19professional pride that I establish that what I wrote was 20true on the basis of proper interviews, not conducted over 21a snatched telephone conversation. Proper interviews. 22You have of course seen the very complete and proper 23records I took of those interviews, and I was perfectly 24satisfied from my knowledge of these people and what they 25told me that they had not granted her interview. 26Certainly Krista Schroeder had not and, when it was

. P-143

1suggested in this court that she had, I knew perfectly 2well that she had not, and it now turns out I was right. 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
The last item on my agenda for today, Mr Irving, is the 4Goebbels diaries, the entry for 13th December 1941, what 5Adolf Hitler said to the Gauleiters and others on 12th 6December 1941. 7A.
[Mr Irving]
And my knowledge of what was in them, presumably. 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Absolutely. Precisely that. My Lord, this is on page 337 9and 338 of Professor Evans' report. I invite reference to 10that because the English is there. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sorry to be tedious about this but where 12should I put the little clip that has just been handed in? 13MS ROGERS: J2, which is now in an overspill marked J2 to 3. 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: Rather than being an overspill marked J2 to 153, it is actually going to be J3. 16MS ROGERS: I am very happy with that, and I think we are up to 1717 or 18. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have run out of tabs. 19MR RAMPTON: May Mr Irving and his Lordship have the Goebbels 20clip and Mr Irving should also have a copy of Professor 21Evans' report. 22A.
[Mr Irving]
In that case I had better clear a large space on my desk. 23MR RAMPTON: Please turn to page 337. On page 337 in paragraph 248 Professor Evans writes this: "On 12th December 1941, 25less than one month after the publication of the article 26in Das Reich, Hitler spoke about the Jews in front of the

. P-144

1Gauleiters (noted down by Goebbels): 'With reference to 2the Jewish question", Bezuglich der Judenfrage, "the 3Fuhrer is determined to clear the decks". The actual 4German is reinen Tisch zu machen, which might be better 5translated as make a clean sweep. "He prophesied to the 6Jews that if they should once more bring about a world 7war, they would experience their own annihilation in doing 8so. That was no mere talk. The world war is there, the 9annihilation of Jewry must be the necessary consequence. 10The question is to be considered without any 11sentimentality. We are not there to have sympathy with 12the Jews, only sympathy with our German people". 13 In paragraph 9 on page 338, writes Professor 14Evans: "Here Hitler mirrored directly Goebbels's 15statements from the article in Das Reich", which I think 16was published in November of that year, 16th I think? 17A.
[Mr Irving]
November 16, yes. 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
"While Irving does cite this speech of 12th December 1941 19by Hitler in Goebbels, he is careful to omit any mention 20at all of this key passage because it shows that Hitler 21was as determined to act brutally against the Jews as 22Goebbels was". 23 Your account of the omission of that may be 24thought crucially important passage from the Goebbels 25diaries from your book on Goebbels, or indeed from 26anything else that you have written so far as I know, is

. P-145

1I think, if I may summarize this and you will correct me 2if am wrong, that you went to Moscow to look at the 3Goebbels diaries with a specific commission from the 4Sunday Times. 5A.
[Mr Irving]
A shopping list, yes. 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Which consisted of, or which included, the instruction, 7direction or request to look for material on Pearl 8Harbour? Is that right? 9A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Have I got it right so far? 11A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
When you got there, you found the glass plates on which 13the diaries were recorded so voluminous or so crowded that 14you stopped four lines into the second of the glass plates 15for this date. Do you remember that? Would you like to 16turn to tab 2, which I think are some Irving documents, 17are they not? 18A.
[Mr Irving]
I am sorry? 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
The little clip, the file you have been given. 20A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, tab 2. The notes taken by my assistant on our 21progress as we waded through the glass plates. 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. The first page in that is headed "box 1", is it not? 23A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Whether that means the big filing box or the little box of 25glass plates, I cannot say. 26Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I have absolutely no idea. I am afraid I was not there.

. P-146

1A.
[Mr Irving]
It is a big filing box. I can see that because on box two 2she puts in the Russian designation. 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Could you turn to page 9 please? It is the original 09 at 4the bottom. 5A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Under No. 38 at the top of the page we see the list of 7plates that you read, or part read, for December 1941, do 8we not? 9A.
[Mr Irving]
The plates that we found, yes. 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Whatever. Lesen is German for read, is it not? 11A.
[Mr Irving]
Read or read, oddly enough. 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Read. It must be read. 10th December, read, 11th to 12th 13December, read, Pearl Harbour. 14A.
[Mr Irving]
Read with gelesen. 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
All right. 13th December, lesen, whatever it means. 16A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
13/14 December, 41, bis vier zeile gelesen? 18A.
[Mr Irving]
Read to the fourth line yes. 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, to the fourth line. Now please turn over some 20pages. There is a lot in here that I do not need. 21A.
[Mr Irving]
I am astonished that she was so meticulous in what she 22wrote down. 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I am about to suggest to you that she actually might have 24made a significant mistake. 25A.
[Mr Irving]
Ah. 26Q.
[Mr Rampton]
At tab 5 of this little file you will see a document in

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1Russian dated 23rd February of this year. If you want to 2turn over, we have attempted the translation. 3A.
[Mr Irving]
I was just about to get my O-level Russian to work. 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Forget your O-level Russian unless you are going to 5grumble about the translation. It comes from the Federal 6Archives Services of Russia and Moscow and it is written 7to my solicitors Mishcon de Reya in London. It says, 8"Dear Sirs, further to your letter we are sending to you 9photocopies Goebbels diary pages for 13th December 1941. 10The photocopies are taken from two separate glass 11plates". So far you are not falling out with the 12Russians, I think, are you, Mr Irving? 13A.
[Mr Irving]
I am happy to accept this, yes. 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
The second plate starts from page 18. 15A.
[Mr Irving]
I see what they mean. 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
We turn over the page to tab 6 of this little file and we 17find what it is that the Russians have sent us. 18A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
If you turn through the pages, the numbers are at the 20top. You find that the first plate ends. Well, let us 21look at the first page. The first page has on it 13th 22December 1941. 23A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
That does not mean that that plate starts on the 13th 25December 1941, does it? 26A.
[Mr Irving]
No, it does not.

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1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Right. So, when the Russians say that plate 1 ends at 2page 17 of this 13th December entry, which you can see, 3they are probably right, are they not? 4A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Now I will direct you to where on plate 2, rather far past 6line 4 I fear, your clip that you gave us as representing 7what you transcribed begins. Page 26, please. If you 8want to compare it with what you gave us as being your -- 9we had better do it in an orderly way. Your transcription 10is at tab 4, and it begins "Mittags habe ich eine 11Unterredung mit dem Fuhrer". 12A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
So we can see that that passage starts -- it is the first 14part of your transcription for the 13th and it starts on 15page 26, I think, of plate 2, I ask you to note, of the 16series for this date. I can tell you, because I have 17marked it all the way through, you run out in the sections 18you say you transcribed on page 38. Is that right? Yes, 19it is, I think. You end with the passage "Das wir im 20Osten nicht weitergekommen sind, als wir jetzt stehen", 21and we find that on page 38 of plate 2, do we not? 22A.
[Mr Irving]
That is when I run out. 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You end "nach Schutzproblem aber". 24A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Tab 4 is what? Transcribed microfiche 26material done by Mr Irving in Moscow?

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1MR RAMPTON: Yes. So point 1, Mr Irving, the story that all 2but four lines of your transcription came from plate 1 is 3just rubbish, is it not? 4A.
[Mr Irving]
I have just done a little bit of a calculation. 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It all comes from plate 2, does it not? 6A.
[Mr Irving]
Mr Rampton, if you are saying that plate 2 starts on page 718 ---- 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I am. 9A.
[Mr Irving]
Do you know how many images there were per plate? 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I have no idea. 11A.
[Mr Irving]
Ah. 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I can count the pages, Mr Irving. I do not need images. 13A.
[Mr Irving]
It was either 25 ---- 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
35. It does not matter. 15A.
[Mr Irving]
It does, because I think that you will find that the 16remaining images you got here probably come from yet a 17third plate. 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No. 19A.
[Mr Irving]
Because you could not have had more than a certain number 20of images. Unfortunately, unless your Lordship has in 21front of you the actual colour photograph I gave you what 22the plates look like, I think those were the handwritten 23pages. I am sorry, that would not apply. That is 24handwritten pages and not the typed pages. The typed 25pages have more to a page than the handwritten images. 26Q.
[Mr Rampton]
They seem to have got on to this plate, plate 2, and I do

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1not know whether plate 2 ends on 13th December. I think 2not, because the Russians tell us that the second plate is 3partly the 13th and partly the 14th, but we see, of the 413th, they got a total of 59 minus 18, which is 41 pages, 5and the whole of what you transcribed came from plate 2, 6not from plate 1, as you would have us believe. 7A.
[Mr Irving]
I am anxious not to put my foot in it by saying something 8ill considered. The final page in the clip appears to be 9the end of the day's entry, does it not? 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It might be that it is, and it may be that there are some 11more pages in the plate relating to 14th December. It 12might be, it might not be, it might be the end of the 13plate, I have no idea. I suspect it is not the end of the 14plate because of what the Russians have just told us. 15However, the fact is that, starting on page 26, that is 16say, roughly speaking, eight pages into plate 2, you then 17succeed in transcribing your way all the way through in 18bits and pieces with some left out, to page 38. Yes? 19A.
[Mr Irving]
Right. I am sorry. I am getting the picture now. 20Obviously, you have thrown this at me just now as I am 21trying to get the overall picture. You know this better 22than I do. Which pages of the large type face have 23I actually transcribed? 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No. They are not continuous. 25A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, I know that. 26Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You start on page 26, you continue on page 27. There is

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1then a gap starting at the bottom two lines of 27, and 2going through to the end of the first three lines on page 330. You then start again at "Ich habe noch gelegenheit". 4A.
[Mr Irving]
And there is nothing on those pages that I have taken out 5that you are worried about? 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, nothing at all. This is not what I am driving at. 7A.
[Mr Irving]
All right. I think this is the way to do it. 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You then transcribe the whole of page 31. 9A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
The whole of page 32, the whole of page 33 and the first 11three lines of page 34. 12A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You then jump to page 38, where you transcribe all but the 14last two lines of the large paragraph on that page. 15A.
[Mr Irving]
In the part that has been jumped there is there anything 16significant? 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, nothing significant. 18A.
[Mr Irving]
All right, so that is unimportant. 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I do not know whether there is or there is not. I am not 20interested in that. 21A.
[Mr Irving]
That is the way to do it, so I know what you are getting 22at. 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Exactly. 24A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
The fact is you managed to get to page 38 of a diary entry 26which, considering its date, is recording the speech to

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1the Gauleiters and I think the Reichskommissars and, 2considering its date, is a very important entry. 3A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, if one had known that was there. But you have to 4remember, I am looking at these glass plates through 5something the size of my little finger nail like this all 6day long, dictating on to a tape. 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Are you seriously telling me that you resisted the 8temptation to read this important speech of the Fuhrer 9from end to end, start to finish? 10A.
[Mr Irving]
There was a temptation to read the entire 50,000 pages, 11this is true. 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Never mind the 50,000 glass pages. 13A.
[Mr Irving]
There is a limitation. I knew I was only going to be in 14Moscow for a few days before I flew back to England. 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You are, or purport to be, an historian with a particular 16interest in Adolf Hitler. Adolf Hitler makes a important 17speech on 12th December 1941, which is recorded by his 18chum Joseph Goebbels. 19A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 20Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You are in the middle of this important speech. Are you 21telling me that your ordinary curiosity would not have 22compelled you to read on to the end of this speech? 23A.
[Mr Irving]
I have to say that, even had I seen it, and this is an 24entirely different question, I would not have attached any 25importance to it, because it is the old Adolf Hitler 26gramophone record again. But the question you are asking

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1is why I did not read ahead and see that kind of thing was 2there, and the answer is quite simply I did not, so I did 3not. 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I am suggesting that you did. It is to be found at the 5bottom of page 50, the relevant passage. 6MR RAMPTON: Bezuglich der Judenfrage ist der Fuhrer 7enschlossen, reinen tisch zu machen. 8A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. Can you me where I stopped reading? 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You stopped reading eleven pages earlier, bottom of page 1038. Actually, to be fair, in lines it is probably 12 11pages. 12A.
[Mr Irving]
So it was not a question of kind of my eye not running 13over on to the next page. I would have had to read on 14twelve pages on the glass plate, and then said to myself, 15hey, this is important, but I am afraid to say I would not 16have, for the simple reason that none of the other people 17present at that Gauleiter meeting, none of the other 18Gauleiters, and there were 48 of them, bothered to write 19anything about this particular speech being any different 20from the others. 21Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Were you aware at this date when you were examining these 22plates, Mr Irving, what to you at one time at least was 23passionately important, that is to say, what you believed 24to be the signal ending the Final Solution, Himmler's 25telephone call to Heydrich on 30th November of this year, 26that is to say 12 years before the event which this diary

. P-154

1entry records? 2A.
[Mr Irving]
12 days? 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
12 days. What did I say? 12 years? 4A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It is obviously not 12 years, is it? 12 days. That is 6elephantine, Mr Irving, but we will not worry about that. 7You knew well about that diary entry, did you not? 8A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. I knew about a lot of documents, yes. 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No, no. This is one of your cherished icons, or it was 10until it was shattered. 11A.
[Mr Irving]
Said to have been, yes, but I do not agree that it was. 12It was one of a long series of documents. 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
This was Hitler ordering a final end to any shooting of 14Jews for ever, or killing of Jews for ever. If you look 15at the introduction to the 1977 edition of Hitler's War, 16we can all see that. 17A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 18Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Are you really telling me that a speech made 12 days after 19that crucially important event in your mind, you come upon 20a Hitler speech at the meeting with the Gauleiters and the 21Reichskommissars, and you do not read the whole of the 22speech? 23A.
[Mr Irving]
Quite simply did not, because of the very scarce resource, 24namely time. The archive opened and closed at set hours. 25I was only going to be in Moscow for two more days. 26I think this is already probably the last page of notes

. P-155

1that Miss Teplar made of our actual discoveries. We were 2running out of time. I could not afford just to indulge 3my curiosity. I had a shopping list to fill for the 4Sunday Times. There were certain items we were trying to 5obtain. I was reading these glass plates under extreme 6conditions of awkwardness, namely using a 16 times little 7thumbnail magnifier. I did not do badly under the 8circumstances, and I agree I should be horse whipped for 9having not seen that there but, even had I seen it, 10I would not have used it, I do not think. 11Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You would have suppressed it anyway, would you? It does 12not seem to you significant? 13A.
[Mr Irving]
I do not think so. I think the Schlegelberger document is 14of far greater significance than this. This is just the 15old Adolf Hitler gramophone record. I made that prophecy 16then and they do it ---- 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Sure. This is the prophecy coming to actuality, if I may 18borrow from the French for a moment. It is being 19realized. He prophesied to the Jews that, if they should 20once more bring about a world war, they would experience 21their own annihilation in doing so. This was no mere 22talk. This is on 12th December. The world war is there. 23The annihilation of Jewry must be the necessary 24consequence. Then why was the world war there, 25Mr Irving? Why was Hitler speaking to the Gauleiters on 2612th December? The reason is that he declared war on

. P-156

1United States the day before. 2A.
[Mr Irving]
That is right. He had picked up the gauntlet. 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. Do you tell me honestly that you did not think that 4that speech by Adolf Hitler the day after the declaration 5of war by Germany on the United States, making this into a 6world war, was something you were not interested in 7reading from beginning to end? 8A.
[Mr Irving]
This is the difficulty. If you are sitting in a library, 9in your book lined cave, just picking volumes off a shelf 10with an index and a contents list, with the content of 11every entry in the diary, then this is made so easy for 12you. But, if you sitting in a Russian archive without 13even a microfilm reading machine, and you are looking at 14glass plates, and you are the first person to open those 15boxes in 55 years, you have not the faintest idea what 16lies ahead of you. 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
This is the date, is it not, Mr Irving, on which in effect 18Hitler, having declared war on the United States and thus 19having brought about a world war, declares war on the 20Jews? 21A.
[Mr Irving]
No. 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
He says to them, does he not: "Right, mates, you brought 23about the first war, I told you that you would be for it 24if there was a second war. Now this is it. Face the 25music". 26A.
[Mr Irving]
Actually, the declaration of war was the next day.

. P-157

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
What, the 13th? 2A.
[Mr Irving]
That is right. Hitler declared war on the United States 3on 13th December, and the speech is on the 12th. The 4diary entry is the 13th, but Goebbels also wrote it up one 5day later. It is not any significance, that point, 6just ---- 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I rather think it may be. I had always thought that it 8was 11th December. I do not know why I thought that. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Just pause a moment. 10MR RAMPTON: They think it is the 11th, too. They know a lot 11of history, far more than I do. 12A.
[Mr Irving]
I would not bet on it, but I think I am right. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think there is a reference, which caught my 14eye as I was looking through, in Goebbels diary to the 15United States. I cannot now find it. 16MR RAMPTON: Dr Longerich thinks it is the 11th, my Lord. 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: What would be conclusive, with all respect to 18him, is if Goebbels mentioned it as having happened before 19he wrote his diary entry. 20MR RAMPTON: Or if Mr Irving did, but I cannot find it in the 21index. 22A.
[Mr Irving]
It would be in my book Hitler's War, but of course that is 23just a pack of lies, is it not? 24MR RAMPTON: No. There are some things that are right. For 25example, the name on the cover, Hitler, and war. 26A.
[Mr Irving]
I think a sudden silence is going to fall among the----

. P-158

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It is quite an important point so, if your Lordship does 2not mind, we will find out, on the best authority, when it 3was declared. 4A.
[Mr Irving]
I think it is a "Who wants to be a millionaire" question, 5is it not? 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Not really, I think. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: Page 15 of Goebbels diary entry? 8MR RAMPTON: Page 15 in this Russian version, my Lord? 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I am not sure if it actually does 10answer the question, but it is coming close. 11MR RAMPTON: Perhaps we can bypass the good Dr Goebbels, my 12Lord, because this is Professor Irving writing his Goring 13book in 1989ish, I think, page 337. "It is probably only 14now that he", that is probably Hitler, might be Goring, 15"learned that the Japanese had attacked Pearl Harbour. 16At the Reichstag session on December 11th Hitler declared 17war on the United States". 18A.
[Mr Irving]
I found it at the same time, yes. 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Well, who is right? You or you? 20A.
[Mr Irving]
This time you are right. 21Q.
[Mr Rampton]
OK, the 11th. 22A.
[Mr Irving]
Luckily I am not a betting man. 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Lucky you have not lost a million quid, yet. 24A.
[Mr Irving]
I would have phoned a friend if I had one. 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving, this was a very important speech, was it not? 26A.
[Mr Irving]
No.

. P-159

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
The day after the declaration of war on the United States? 2A.
[Mr Irving]
It was the usual Adolf Hitler pep talk. He did not often 3see the Gauleiters. He did not like the Gauleiters. He 4said to Martin Bormann after Rudolf Hess went, "Keep the 5Gauleiters off my back". 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
What he said was: "You Jews, I threatened you, I promised 7you, you have got it coming to you, and now it is here 8because the world war has begun". 9A.
[Mr Irving]
Do you want to see his actual speech? 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
No. I would like you to look at what Goebbels reports 11that he said. 12A.
[Mr Irving]
That is what I am asking. 13Q.
[Mr Rampton]
That is at the bottom of page 50 of the Moscow microfiche. 14A.
[Mr Irving]
That is 22 pages beyond how far I got. 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It is not. It is 12 pages. I must say -- I have to say, 16Mr Irving -- pretty weedy little pages too, narrow and 17short. Bezuglich der Judenfrager ist der Fuhrer. It is 18the last line on page 50. It goes through, probably the 19bit about the Jews, only as far as page 51, because he 20starts something new on the bottom of page 51. Yes, here 21we are. This is going to be the German India in the 22future in the East. So the little bit about the Jews is 23really mostly on page 51. If you read it to yourself ---- 24A.
[Mr Irving]
I have read it. 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I repeat my question. This is a statement that the threat 26will now be fulfilled, is it not.

. P-160

1A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. He had said it endless times before. It is exactly 2the same thing. Mr Rampton, I had the advantage of having 3read these Hitler speeches through and through for 35 4years. 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I am sure you have. 6A.
[Mr Irving]
After a time, you know what he is going to say next. He 7is that kind of person. 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I am surprised you remain sane, Mr Irving. 9A.
[Mr Irving]
Thank you for the compliment. 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
However, the fact is that the world war, which was what 11Hitler was ranting about in the Reichstag on 30th January 121939, for example, is now here. The day before. 13A.
[Mr Irving]
He had had the entire British Empire around his neck 14already, so it was not exactly a localised conflict, and 15the Soviet Union. 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It is highly significant to anybody, is it not, Mr Irving, 17who is in the least bit interested in an objective account 18of Hitler's responsibility for what happened to the Jews? 19A.
[Mr Irving]
Well, I can only repeat what I said earlier. There are 20two separate issues here: Whether I saw it and suppressed 21it and whether, if I saw it, I attached any importance to 22it, or would have attached any importance to it, and the 23answer to the second question is decisively no. I would 24not have attached any undue importance to that passage 25beyond what Hitler had said on countless occasions 26before. The answer to the first question I can say with

. P-161

1the utmost emphasis is that I never saw this passage, 2I did not read the passage, I did not get that far in the 3glass plate, I had other things on the shopping list. 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I make it clear, Mr Irving -- I am going to sit down 5now -- that I do not accept either of those answers so 6that you shall not be surprised when I say it when I close 7this case. May I just take a moment to read my briefing, 8my Lord? 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, of course. 10MR RAMPTON: (After a pause). Thank you, Mr Irving. 11A.
[Mr Irving]
Thank you. 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes Mr Irving. 13A.
[Mr Irving]
Unless your Lordship has any questions on that? 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: You have somewhat theoretical possibility of 15re-examining yourself if you want to add anything by way 16of evidence to what you have told Mr Rampton. 17A.
[Mr Irving]
I re-examine myself every night in the small hours to see 18what I have done wrong, and that is as far as I can get, 19unfortunately. By way of submission, I will certainly 20make certain propositions which, whether permitted or not, 21is the only way that I can effectively do it on the basis 22of documents. 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I think I would find it quite helpful 24if you were able to perhaps fax the little clip of 25documents that I think you are probably going to produce 26in relation to the invention by the British, the PWE.

. P-162

1A.
[Mr Irving]
The broadcasting. I have made a note of that. The 2immediate question is when do we next come together? 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do you want to return to your usual place? 4A.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 5(The witness withdrew). 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton, there are a number of loose ends, 7I think. 8MR RAMPTON: Yes, I agree. 9MR IRVING: Can I ask a technical question? Is Mr Rampton 10continuing to rely on any other names in the bundle? 11MR RAMPTON: What names? 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sorry, what names? 13MR IRVING: Hancock and names like that. 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: Who? 15MR IRVING: Mr Hancock. 16MR RAMPTON: No, I have the answer I need about Mr Hancock. He 17is some kind of unattached roving rightist who thinks that 18all immigrants should be sent home. He is in the diary 19entry for what he is worth. 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am taking it that the Defendants are relying 21on ---- 22MR RAMPTON: The list. 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- all the names on the list. 24MR RAMPTON: Yes. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Although they may abandon some of those names 26in the light of your answer. I do not know whether they

. P-163

1will or they will not, but they are entitled to rely on 2them. 3MR IRVING: The question I am really asking, my Lord, is do 4I need to make submissions about any of the other names 5than those that I have been cross-examined on? 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: The ones that are not on the list you mean? 7MR IRVING: The ones that I have not been cross-examined on. 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not sure that there really in the end 9there were any. There may have been one. 10MR IRVING: There were several. I am not going to mention 11names. 12MR RAMPTON: I have no intention of cross-examining Mr Irving 13on any of the names on the list in so far as the 14cross-examination was done for me by Professor Funke over 15the last two proceeding days. There is no point in my 16cross-examining and repeating just on Professor Funke has 17said. I rely on the evidence of Professor Funke, so far 18as those names are concerned. But, as I have said before, 19principally do I rely on Mr Irving's own words and 20appearances. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am taking it that if the names on the list 22have not featured in the oral evidence at all, then they 23drop from the picture. 24MR RAMPTON: I would accept that. 25MR IRVING: Easily. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think you will find that only is one or

. P-164

1two. 2MR IRVING: I think there are rather more than that. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am open to correction on that. The first 4thing is, any evidence that you have not, as it were, 5formally tendered, Mr Rampton, now I think probably is the 6time it should be done. You have some more evidence? 7MR RAMPTON: I? 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Not oral. 9MR RAMPTON: I see, the Civil Evidence Act witnesses, yes 10I think we probably have. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is customary to inform the court what the 12evidence you rely on is. It is just that I do not 13actually really ---- 14MR RAMPTON: I really do not want to ask Miss Rogers to stand 15here and read them out. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: No. I want to know what there is, because 17I was slightly alarmed to get a bundle that I am not sure 18I previously had which I have kept. 19MR RAMPTON: Can we not make a snap statement about that now. 20To say I have not read it would be false, but to say 21I have not read it recently would be true. I cannot even 22remember what is in it. I do not have it. Lipstadt your 23Lordship can forget, not as a person but as a witness. As 24to the rest, frankly your Lordship can forget the 25Russians, I have got what I need from Mr Irving. As to 26the rest, they are all Americans I think.

. P-165

1MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not even have an index in this bundle. 2MR RAMPTON: Can we come back on that? 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are we meeting tomorrow? 4MR RAMPTON: I would rather not meet tomorrow if it is 5possible. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: Then I need to know now, do I not? 7MR RAMPTON: Unless we are meeting on Monday or unless we send 8a written note to your Lordship's Clerk just saying which 9names we rely on. I certainly do not feel competent to 10make a decision about that now. I know I rely on Miss 11Gutmann, but beyond that I really cannot say. For 12example, it may be possible that some of these people make 13reference to people that I do not rely on as primary 14actors, in which case this Civil Evidence Act Notice can 15be ignored. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not entirely happy, if I may say so, 17with it being left in quite that way, because I do not 18think it is reasonably to expect me to plough through 19whatever it may be you are relying on. I am just wondering 20whether we are not going to have to have a further session 21in court before everybody goes away to write final 22speeches to deal with, at any rate, that. 23MR RAMPTON: I do not mind coming back tomorrow morning, if 24that would help. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think it really is not, if I may say so, 26satisfactory just to be told, well, we rely on some of

. P-166

1them, but we cannot really say which or which parts. 2I think it has to be a bit more crystallised than that. 3MR RAMPTON: I was suggesting might be able to do it on paper, 4that is all. 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, do you have any submissions to 6make about this. 7MR IRVING: I would be perfectly happy to receive a faxed list 8of the names on which they intend to rely, if it would 9prevent your Lordship from reading untoward material on 10which they are not intending to rely. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, quite. It is not just which witnesses 12but also I think some guidance as to which parts of the 13witness statements. I do not know how long they are. 14MR RAMPTON: Would your Lordship like us to take your C1 back 15and send you an edited version? 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. 17MR RAMPTON: Would that help? 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, it would. 19MR RAMPTON: We will send it to you tomorrow. 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Absolutely. 21MR RAMPTON: That was not my idea, needless to say. 22MR IRVING: The next question is when can we appoint the time 23for me to make the submissions I have to make on various 24other documents and bundles? 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Mr Rampton, Mr Irving is asking when he 26can make the submissions he has, which are basically, as I

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1understand it, really objections to certain parts of the 2evidence. 3MR IRVING: Objections, but also I wish to put in bundle E if 4I possibly can. 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: Put in what? 6MR IRVING: Put in bundle E by way of submission. 7MR RAMPTON: Bundle E is in, without objection from me. The 8question of what anybody makes of bundle E is a matter for 9submission at the end of the case, final speeches. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that is right, Mr Irving. 11MR IRVING: Yes. 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: We are really dispensing with the rules of 13evidence pretty much entirely in this case, which I think 14is actually right and inevitable, but that means that you 15have got into bundle E a whole lot of documents that in an 16ordinary case would not be evidence or admissible or even 17relevant some of them. So do not worry about that, but if 18you are objecting to any of the evidence that the 19Defendants have put in, then my own feeling is that that 20ought to be dealt with sooner rather than later, because 21if there are documents that are going to disappear from 22the case, well, then it is better we know they are going 23to disappear sooner rather later. 24MR IRVING: There are two documents I am objecting to, one is 25the Muller document of which I still have not been given 26adequate information on its surroundings, its family and

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1where it comes from, and even if I am given the 2information I am not sure how I can put that before your 3Lordship, except by way of including my representations in 4my closing speeches which is clearly unsatisfactory 5because they will then have to answer to that. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is the first document. 7MR IRVING: The second document which I object to in the manner 8in which it was presented was the video tape of the Halle 9speech over which we had serious altercations with the 10solicitors for the Defence, because it was withheld from 11me, most improperly and fraudulently withheld, which 12resulted in a hearing at a lower level, as a result of 13which the Second Defendant was ordered to provide an 14affidavit on her list, behind which I was not able to go. 15I was informed that she would be presented for 16cross-examination in the appropriate manner, which of 17course has now not happened. The object of that 18particular altercation was Halle video, and has now been 19presented to the court. I think that as they have 20misbehaved over that video, withholding it from me, it was 21then accidentally provided to me, it was returned with all 22my videos to me, that was the only way I became aware of 23the fact that this video consisted containing the real raw 24material ---- 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are giving me a bit of the history and 26I do not think now is the time to go into it, because you

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1need to get your thoughts together, but that is something 2I think ought to be dealt with sooner rather than later, 3because the way of the Defendants have put their case is 4quite a significant aspect of ---- 5MR IRVING: It is significant when it goes to costs, my Lord. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- that compartment in the case. 7MR IRVING: It is significant when it goes to costs. 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not know about costs, but I do think you 9ought to have the opportunity to make objections. I do 10not think that is a frivolous objection. I think the 11Muller document is in an altogether different category, if 12I may say so. 13MR RAMPTON: Can I take this these stages? The Muller document 14is in hand. Dr Longerich is in touch with the IFZ. As 15I have told your Lordship and Mr Irving at least once 16before, the reason we believe why Mr Irving could not get 17hold of it was that the file reference he gave, not 18through his fault, was wrong. We think that the document 19is both in Munich and in the criminal prosecution archive 20in the Ludwigsburg, and we will produce what we can find 21when we can find it. 22 As to the Halle tape, can I say two things? 23That is the best version we have. If Mr Irving, by way of 24argument or submission, is able to point to features of 25the video, or indeed to extraneous evidence which 26demonstrates that that tape is in some sense, some

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1important sense, unreliable, why then, your Lordship can 2take that into account; not by way of whether or not it is 3admissible, but whether or not it should be given weight. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not even sure about that. As 5I understand the objection, it is that it has been so 6heavily edited at various stages by various people that it 7gives a wholly false impression of what actually happened. 8MR RAMPTON: No. It has not been edited. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not saying I agree with that. I am 10saying that that I understand to be the objection, and if 11that be right then it might be that it will be knocked out 12altogether. 13MR RAMPTON: It might be. 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not deciding it now obviously, but 15I think that that objection, if it is taken, ought to be 16disposed of one way or the other sooner rather than later. 17MR RAMPTON: If it is authentic and not a forgery and not, as 18it were, apt to mislead because of the way in which it has 19been edited, I mean mislead significantly, why then, it is 20admissible. It matters not what its provenance is. It 21matters not in the least what fraud Mr Irving may assert 22on the part of my solicitors -- I have to say I have 23absolutely no idea what he is talking about. 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not going to deal with it now, but if 25I am told by a party that there is a video which has been 26put in about which he wants to make, in effect, a

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1submission that it has become a bogus item of 2evidence ---- 3MR RAMPTON: It is not bogus. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is effectively what I understand 5Mr Irving to be saying. 6MR RAMPTON: Then I will deal with it when I am fully 7instructed. 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Quite. All I am saying at the moment is that 9I think this ought to be dealt with before final speeches, 10because one normally deals with these sort of evidential 11questions at an earlier stage, which unfortunately means 12that we will have to have another session sometime. I do 13not really mind myself whether it is tomorrow or Monday. 14MR IRVING: Next week sometime would be preferable. 15MR RAMPTON: I would rather not tomorrow because I need time. 16I do not want to relay half understood messages. 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: Then I think Monday morning is the right time 18to do it. 19MR RAMPTON: Monday morning might be all right, but first 20I need to know chapter and verse as to what Mr Irving's 21objections actually are, with supporting documentation. 22MR IRVING: I have put a clip together, but can I say that 23I expect it will be a conduct of the case matter, rather 24than a withdrawal of the video tape matter finally, if I 25can summarise it like that. 26MR RAMPTON: In that case, I really do not see the point of

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1wasting his Lordship's time, and I have to say mine, at 2this stage in the case. If it is a conduct of the case 3question it can only every reflect on costs or damages. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not know. I am not sure what the 5objections are. 6MR RAMPTON: Can I wait to see what Mr Irving actually says 7because I have no idea what he is talking about at the 8moment? 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I hope we can avoid having a further 10session in court ---- 11MR RAMPTON: So do I. 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- but one thing I do want to deal with, and 13if it can be dealt with now well and good, is the list of 14issues, because I think it is going to make a huge amount 15of difference to my task for a start, and I think it is 16possible going to simplify Mr Irving's task if we can 17agree or possibly improve on the list and the order in 18which the issues are taken. If you have not had a chance 19to look at it ---- 20MR RAMPTON: I have not, I am afraid. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: I wonder whether we can deal with that ---- 22MR RAMPTON: I do not want to deal with it on the hoof, if your 23Lordship will permit me not to. This is a list very 24similar to that which I myself have composed. I really do 25want to be sure before I agree to anything that it is 26either not got something in that I do not read or has some

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1things missing. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, you obviously have not had a 3chance to consider it? 4MR IRVING: I have glanced at it and it seemed to be very 5useful indeed, but I hope not it is not an obligatory 6list, that I do not have to address all the matters that 7are contained in it. 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: You do not have to address any of them, but 9they are, it seems to me, all questions that I have to 10consider and, to an extent anyway, make a finding about. 11MR IRVING: Yes. 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: So if you do not deal with them ---- 13MR IRVING: I hear those words and I understand the meaning of 14them. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton, do you want to say anything about 16them? 17MR RAMPTON: I would rather not say anything about them at the 18moment. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: When are you going to? 20MR RAMPTON: What I will do, if I gain permission, is to write 21any additions or subtractions that I having thought about 22it tomorrow probably, that I feel in my client's interests 23ought to be made any amendments and then I will simply 24send it to your Lordship and to Mr Irving. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I am again perfectly happy with that. 26Can you at the same time consider, and this obviously

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1applies to Mr Irving as well, what I think is very 2difficult in this case, which is the sequence in which it 3is sensible to take the issues, because they all mesh into 4one another and overlap and so on, and it is quite 5important that the judgment ---- 6MR IRVING: As drafted by your Lordship? 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: What I am trying to do is to make the 8judgment flow, if that is the right word, or be 9comprehensible. 10MR IRVING: I am sure that your Lordship being an outsider will 11have synthesized the matters adequately and absolutely 12probably. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you have any suggestions for improving it 14in that respect, then I would be grateful. 15MR RAMPTON: My Lord, I have some housekeeping that I am 16supposed to do. First, they are on the list, little 17sections for RWE 1 Staglich and Varela 8A and 8B. They 18are very small. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. That is that. What else? 20MR RAMPTON: I promised a response if I could get one from 21Professor van Pelt about those three labour camps that 22Mr Irving produced. I have the response and I would like 23to add it, if I may, as a supplement to Professor van 24Pelt's report. It contains some typographical errors but 25no matter. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is all very well just throwing documents

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1at me, but this is another 20 pages. What is this? 2MR RAMPTON: The broad conclusion is very simple. They have 3got nothing whatever to do with extermination. Those are 4documents which deal with keeping up the levels of 5workers, because they date from a period which arrived 6I think in 1942, they deal with a period when the SS, 7unlike the preceding period, had started hiring out its 8workers to commercial companies like I.G. Faben and so on, 9and therefore there came a concern because these workers 10were no condition to do the jobs they were being paid for, 11and they were paid, there came a concern that the SS camps 12were letting their slave workers die like flies instead of 13keeping them fit and healthy to work in the factories. 14This is connected, according to Professor van Pelt, 15obviously and naturally with the fact that the Germans 16needing to recruit soldiers were having to take them from 17factories in the greater Reich, and so needed the slave 18labour to keep the war economy going. 19 He then explains why this has absolutely no 20connection with the extermination, first, because the 21exterminees, if I can call them that, were not registered 22as worker prisoners, and second because of course they do 23not concern any of the extermination camps. 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: So it is exactly what Professor Funke says? 25MR RAMPTON: Yes, that is what Professor Longerich says. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sorry, Longerich.

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1MR RAMPTON: It was observed by your Lordship in the course of 2the cross-examination that Mr Irving's questions were 3directed to the wrong witness. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: Actually it was Professor Funke, was it not? 5MR RAMPTON: No, it was Professor Longerich. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: Anyway, whoever. 7MR RAMPTON: So that is what that deals with. 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much. 9MR RAMPTON: I am not suggesting your Lordship read it now or 10anything like that, but I may make reference to it in 11closing. Then the next thing, my Lord ---- 12MR IRVING: Before we move on from that, my Lord, what kind of 13document is this? 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is further evidence which actually to be 15fair to the Defendants ---- 16MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving laughs ---- 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- resulted from your putting documents 18which I think had not really been seen before, I do not 19think they were disclosed documents ---- 20MR RAMPTON: Absolutely not. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- in the course of your cross-examination, 22I thought it was of Professor Funke but I am sure 23Mr Rampton is right, it was Dr Longerich. Do you remember 24that? 25MR IRVING: Yes, but the difference is of course I have had the 26chance to cross-examine and Mr Rampton has had the chance

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1to re-examine on those documents. On this of course 2I have no possibility of making any comment at all. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, you have every opportunity to make 4comments about it. What you cannot do is cross-examine 5Professor van Pelt because he is in Canada presumably. 6MR IRVING: It is neither fish nor foul really. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, on the contrary, it is further evidence. 8You are perfectly right, you have not had the opportunity 9to cross-examine him. I am not quite sure what you could 10really have put to him in cross-examination that you did 11not already put to Dr Longerich. 12MR IRVING: Your Lordship says further evidence; it is a 13further statement, it is a further opinion. 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: In the way we use the term evidence experts' 15reports are evidence. 16MR IRVING: I am sure your Lordship will attach the proper 17weight to it. 18MR RAMPTON: I protest at that. Mr Irving pulled out of his 19back pocket far too late for us to get Professor van Pelt 20to deal with it in the witness boxes, long after he had 21gone back to Canada, expecting poor Dr Longerich, who is 22not a Holocaust expert, to deal with it, and then 23complains because I get the proper witness to deal with it 24on paper. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am afraid that is why it seems to me to be 26fair to let it in, which I have done. I have already said

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1it could go in. You must deal with it, Mr Irving, by 2making any submissions you want in relation to it. It 3seemed to me actually when Dr Longerich was in the box, it 4was fairly obviously right that it was dealing only with 5what one might call camp inmates in the proper sense 6rather than people who never got as far as the camp 7itself. 8MR IRVING: It is difficult to fit in with the accepted picture 9of the extermination programme which is the reason 10why ---- 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is the sort of point you can develop in 12your final speech. 13MR IRVING: It goes to the scale operation again, which is one 14of the main planks of my case. 15MR RAMPTON: So Mr Irving says. Let us deal with all that in a 16week or so hence, if we may. Then, my Lord, I have the 17little clip of documents relating to Mr Irving's, in our 18book, misrepresentation of what Judge Biddle wrote in his 19notes at Nuremberg about the evidence of Mme 20Valliant-Couturier. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: What extra do I need on that? 22MR RAMPTON: You do not. You just need the papers in one 23convenient lump. 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have them already. 25MR RAMPTON: I see, well, that is fine. We were told by 26somebody that your Lordship had not got them. It is K2,

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1it is Auschwitz, tab 7. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Did I tell that you or not? 3MR RAMPTON: Not your Lordship. Maybe it has been Chinese 4whispers that we got from somewhere. It is tab 7 of K2. 5MS ROGERS: Mr Rampton hates filing more than me, my Lord. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: The answer is I have some of the file but not 7all of it. 8MS ROGERS: I think it is sensible for your Lordship to have 9the lot in one place. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: I agree, yes. 11MS ROGERS: I am taking over on the housekeeping. 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that is a good idea. 13MS ROGERS: It is too boring for Mr Rampton. Your Lordship has 14been asking for the denial statements put together in one 15lump. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. 17MS ROGERS: In a sense the hard copy form is going to be less 18useful than the disk copy which will follow, but for now 19could this go into the front of K3? 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. That effectively means I can discard 21K3. 22MS ROGERS: I think not. Mr Irving relies on context so much 23that I think ---- 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: For that purpose, yes. 25MS ROGERS: --- it is better to keep them there, and the 26passages on that document are the passages which have been

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1highlighted in the K3 files. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Mr Irving will get the ---- 3MS ROGERS: Mr Irving will have exactly what your Lordship has. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: Good. 5MS ROGERS: Then going into an N file, this is a document which 6Mr Irving had but I do not think your Lordship does have. 7It is the Moscow chronology derived from the diaries and 8letters. All of the documents -- there are extracts from 9the documents -- all of the documents extracted are 10contained in the file, but for convenience it is a sort of 11chronology of the relevant events in Moscow. If that 12clipped at the front of N. Then hot of the press there is 13a transcript of part of the tape your Lordship saw, the 14Leuchter Congress. This is an extract of the speech by 15Ahmed Rami. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: In French. 17MS ROGERS: In French and translated into German and what the 18translator has done, which has just been produced in the 19course of the afternoon, is to translate both the French 20and the German for reasons which will be become apparent 21on reading it. Can I suggest that goes into the Rami 22section which is RWE 2 tab 18? I hope that that completes 23the filing part of the exercise. Mr Berry has been most 24helpful in liaising on indexes. I would invite your 25Lordship, through Mr Berry, if there are any loose papers 26that do not have a home, to let us know and then we will

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1produce indexes which are final versions of the files so 2your Lordship will know what is in them. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think everything that matters has got a 4home now. 5MS ROGERS: I hope so, but if something turns up, then we will 6file it. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Right. 8MR RAMPTON: I wonder if your Lordship would want to take away 9any of the tapes we have been showing in court? I am 10going to comment on them in closing the case, but whether 11your Lordship wants to have them in the meantime or simply 12we hand them over when we finish speaking because I 13obviously now (and I do not know that your Lordship has 14either) do not have any idea how long it will be before 15your Lordship is able to give judgment. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am hoping not tremendously long. It 17depends a little bit. The only one that perhaps one might 18need to look at it is the Halle video, but we will 19probably be doing that anyway in the context of any 20argument that may be going to take place on its 21admissibility. 22MR RAMPTON: We do not want to burden your Lordship with them, 23so we will hang on to it in the meantime. 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I am not terribly keen on looking 25through them. 26MR RAMPTON: No. There will be coming a transcript of

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1Mr Irving's home made tape [German] which places him, 2I think, in Germany after he has been banned. I think it 3means "I am coming back" -- "I will be back". 4MR IRVING: "I shall return". 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: "Come again". I do not know what you are 6proposing to do about reducing any part of the final 7speech into writing. 8MR RAMPTON: My Lord, I am going to write the whole thing, at 9least Miss Rogers and I are together, and I am going when 10the time comes obviously to give a copy to your Lordship 11and to Mr Irving. However, what I will not do, unless 12otherwise ordered to do, is give Mr Irving a copy in 13advance of his giving me a copy of what he is going to 14say. I am not saying he should write it for exchange. If 15there is not going to be an exchange, because he does not 16want an exchange because he is not going to write it out, 17then I will hang on to mine and I will give your Lordship 18a copy after I have read it. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: I certainly would not ---- 20MR RAMPTON: As I read it. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: -- order that there should anything other 22than exchange. 23MR IRVING: An exchange on the day perhaps? 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: What I am really driving at is this, that if 25it were to prove to be possible to exchange, even if it is 26only one day in advance of actually having the argument,

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1I suspect we would save a lot of time because I could, you 2know, spend a bit of the previous day having a look and 3perhaps going to the bits that I would like more help on 4as opposed to the other bits. 5MR IRVING: In theory, yes, my Lord, but, of course, I would 6then forfeit the advantage which comes to the person who 7makes the closing speech which is answering specific 8points that have been made. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, that is true. That is a perfectly fair 10point. Well, I will leave it this way, that if you could 11on Friday, first thing on Friday, agree to exchange, that 12would help me but if ---- 13MR RAMPTON: I think that will be too soon. 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not mean tomorrow, obviously, I mean 15Friday week. 16MR RAMPTON: No, no, I doubt it will be ready before the Monday 17morning anyway. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: So be it. 19MR RAMPTON: If it is, so be it, but I doubt it will be. What 20I would like to do, since your Lordship said I think 21yesterday that Monday 13th was not a fixed day for 22delivery of the speeches, as it were, in court, what 23I would possibly like to do is to let your Lordship have 24it as soon as I can, and I hope it might be before the 25Monday morning but it might not be, and then come to court 26(which is what I did in another long case I finished

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1recently) and answer questions, as it were, when your 2Lordship has had a chance to read it. But in the 3particular and peculiar circumstances of this case, there 4will be quite a lot that I will want court time to read 5out. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I think we want to regard Monday 13th as 7being pretty much a fixed date when we are going to have 8speeches. 9MR IRVING: I may have over misheard something there. Is the 10intention that the speeches should be read out and not 11just taken as read? 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: Oh, no, no, not read out at all, no. I think 13one has to play it by ear. I do not know what you are 14proposing to do. You do not have to write a word down. 15MR IRVING: No, I propose to write mine, yes. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I suspect then there may be odd points 17I want to pick up with you. I mean, do not feel the need 18to just read out your prepared final speech. That would, 19I think, be a complete waste of time. 20MR IRVING: Right, so it is a written submission rather than -- 21that point I had not appreciated. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: But I do not know what you are going to say 23so I cannot really ---- 24MR IRVING: That I am right and that they are wrong, 25basically. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- predict how I would want to deal with it.

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1Good. Anything else, Mr Irving? 2MR IRVING: No, my Lord. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: So I am assuming next Monday for any argument 4that is going to take place on the Halle speech. 5MR IRVING: This coming Monday? 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: This coming Monday, which will be the 6th. 7MR IRVING: It will be a short session. 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. 9(The court adjourned until Monday, 6th March 2000)1011121314151617181920212223242526