World Families Forums - Do the celtic gods and their myths reflect the beaker origins of the Celts?

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She is beautiful, on her duck boat. Thanks for posting. What does the duck signify?

I have the guide book from that museum (of archaeology, in Dijon). The curators seem reasonably confident that she is Sequana (there is no inscription, but she was found in the remains of a busy Sequana temple at the source of the Seine). The extensive caption with a good photo of this statue is more concerned with what she might have been holding, the nature of her clothing, and whether the statue actually stood on the pedestal but the boat is a separate artifact (they were found together, but not assembled as one unit). The shrine also contained close to a thousand ex voto tokens, many representing body parts in need of healing, and coins. Their period (Gallo-Romain) is stated as 52 BC to 476 AD.

If you want to see some of the material under copyright that I don't want to post, give me an email address via PM and I can zap you photos of it, to study or post as you see fit. The captioning and discussion is all in French, btw.

She is beautiful, on her duck boat. Thanks for posting. What does the duck signify?

I have the guide book from that museum (of archaeology, in Dijon). The curators seem reasonably confident that she is Sequana (there is no inscription, but she was found in the remains of a busy Sequana temple at the source of the Seine). The extensive caption with a good photo of this statue is more concerned with what she might have been holding, the nature of her clothing, and whether the statue actually stood on the pedestal but the boat is a separate artifact (they were found together, but not assembled as one unit). The shrine also contained close to a thousand ex voto tokens, many representing body parts in need of healing, and coins. Their period (Gallo-Romain) is stated as 52 BC to 476 AD.

If you want to see some of the material under copyright that I don't want to post, give me an email address via PM and I can zap you photos of it, to study or post as you see fit. The captioning and discussion is all in French, btw.

Razyn,I speak French, so that is not a problem. I will send you a PM.Thanks,Gerard

HeberLets say that a plane full of Irishmen lands at JFK. They are all dna tested and the results are 80% R1b, 5% U106 and the other 20% R1a and I. Will the 75 % P312 and subclades say to the others you are not Irish.You arent in the right haplogroup. Some L21 folks write like this on a regular basis.

AlanDo you think that the Celts have been around for 5000 years instead of 3000?We are lucky here in Ireland that we have the Annals .

Obviously I dont know for sure nor does anyone else. However, I find the idea of Celtic spreading primarily in the La Tene and Hallstatt C/D periods extrememely unlikely. Even pushing back to urnfield is not useful for some areas. If I had to guess, the Celtic language may have emerged in the late beaker/immediate post-beaker period in a large zone running from Atlantic France to west-central Europe (and including the isles). Prior to that I suspect the beaker language was some sort of Italo-Celtic ancestral dialect rather than Celtic. So I would fall nearer to 4000 years in my guess.

As for the annals, well they didnt even start to form until the 6th century AD and the prehistoric part such as you see in the Annals of the Four Masters is Medieval guessology written by Medieval scribes who far less about the Copper Age (3000 years before they wrote) than we do today.There is a big difference between saying the Ulster Cycle has real echoes of the period it appears to represent (perhaps c. 0BC/AD give or take a century). It was perhaps first being written down within 500 years of events it represents. There is a big difference between that and 3000 years. I think the very oldest grains of truth in the invasion type mythology in Irish literature probably goes back a few centuries BC but on earlier.

After the Celts the Romans ruled the whole of Europe.Did thay all belong in one subclade too? Did only one haplogroup speak latin?The people who wrote the Annals knew a lot more about things that went on the 2000 years before them than we do. Just like us we know a lot about the last 2000 years. The scribes that wrote them were the learned men of their time not someone who was digging spuds in a field the week before.

She is beautiful, on her duck boat. Thanks for posting. What does the duck signify?

I have the guide book from that museum (of archaeology, in Dijon). The curators seem reasonably confident that she is Sequana (there is no inscription, but she was found in the remains of a busy Sequana temple at the source of the Seine). The extensive caption with a good photo of this statue is more concerned with what she might have been holding, the nature of her clothing, and whether the statue actually stood on the pedestal but the boat is a separate artifact (they were found together, but not assembled as one unit). The shrine also contained close to a thousand ex voto tokens, many representing body parts in need of healing, and coins. Their period (Gallo-Romain) is stated as 52 BC to 476 AD.

If you want to see some of the material under copyright that I don't want to post, give me an email address via PM and I can zap you photos of it, to study or post as you see fit. The captioning and discussion is all in French, btw.

Razyn,

Here is a nice image and analysis from the University of Lyon.

"In the representation of Sequana, the duck obviously symbolizes the water of the river.1831 Deyts argues that this statue must have been offered by merchants, traders or boatmen, who wanted to honour the protectress and benefactress of water-borne trade on the River Seine."

" Indo-European peoples named major rivers after Danu, Sinann, and other goddesses. The Marne in northern France was named Matrona in the first century BCE. The eastern Gauls built some twenty monuments to the goddess Nantosuelta, whose name meant “winding river.” [Thevenot, 167; Ross, 219-20] Shrines grew up along the shores of the Severn (named after the goddess Sabrina) in Wales and at the source of the Seine, named after the goddess Sequana. [Ross, 22] The Gauls made pilgrimages there to pray to Sequana for healing, casting votive tablets and oaken images of humans, animals, and afflicted body parts into her spring. A bronze from Sequana's temple shows a Romanized goddess standing in a boat, spinning. Her vessel is shaped like a duck with a berry in its bill. "

Heber, you might also compare the last picture on that Lyon site with the more complete seated female river deity, sculpted in oolitic limestone, on p. 34 of the material I sent you.

I wonder if the Sequana statues could be holding some sort of amphora or "Rebekah's jar," and pouring out the healing waters of the Seine. There is something missing from all of them, but the bronze one is almost intact -- except for whatever she is doing with her hands.

I have always been intrigued by the prominence of fairies or the "little people" in Celtic folklore. I will leave Irish mythology to those on this board far better aqainted than I but in the case of Wales (here I go again!) there was a rich, folk narrative tradition. Gerald of Wales wrote about the Welsh belief in fairies in the 12C.

The Welsh oral tradition has plenty of brief, local legends from all parts of Wales, and fairies, usually known in Welsh as Y Tylwyth Teg, feature in many of these stories. The fairies are described as a beautiful and gentle folk, occasionally inclined towards mischief but kind to mortals. Fairy rings are also a common tradition and the little people are said to inhabit an otherworld type place of tranquility and mystery, which leads to the obvious conclusion that the fairies are supernatural beings or spirits of the dead who inhabit the afterlife.

Some people however, have interpreted these stories as ancient memories of an earlier, vanquished people. A fear of iron is a central motif in Welsh fairy tales and their most prized possessions were their animals; dogs, sheep, goats and cattle.

By the 1950s and 1960s, belief in fairies had more or less died out but even then it was still said that some Welsh people were actually descended from the fairies!

In an Irish context the Daoine Sí/Aos Sí would be better equated with the Elves of Tolkein's mythos. If anything he did utilised Irish mythology quite abit. Though he did reported that he loathed the Irish language (something to do with finding it difficult to master).

The central premise of course is that in the syncrethic histories as formulated in the 7th-8th century the Tuatha Dé Danann (The People of Goddess Danu) was regarded as a previous race who had magical powers and who were defeated by the sons of the imagined Míl. The agreement reached been that the Irish would take the aboveground and the Tuatha Dé would take the "underworld". As a result they retreated into the Sí (Sidhe) -- burial mounds. Thence to be known in later folklore as the Daoine Sí (People of the Sí). Hence the word Banshee derives from "Bean Sí" -- literally "woman of the Sí"

Of course given that the "histories" were written in Christian times you ended up with Celtic deities such as Lú (Lugh) been "mortalised" as a member of the Tuatha Dé. Likewise the features of the Bean Sí are directly lifted from features of war/death goddess such as the Mórríoghan (the screem, the old hag combing her hair etc.)

I have always been intrigued by the prominence of fairies or the "little people" in Celtic folklore. I will leave Irish mythology to those on this board far better aqainted than I but in the case of Wales (here I go again!) there was a rich, folk narrative tradition. Gerald of Wales wrote about the Welsh belief in fairies in the 12C.

The Welsh oral tradition has plenty of brief, local legends from all parts of Wales, and fairies, usually known in Welsh as Y Tylwyth Teg, feature in many of these stories. The fairies are described as a beautiful and gentle folk, occasionally inclined towards mischief but kind to mortals. Fairy rings are also a common tradition and the little people are said to inhabit an otherworld type place of tranquility and mystery, which leads to the obvious conclusion that the fairies are supernatural beings or spirits of the dead who inhabit the afterlife.

Some people however, have interpreted these stories as ancient memories of an earlier, vanquished people. A fear of iron is a central motif in Welsh fairy tales and their most prized possessions were their animals; dogs, sheep, goats and cattle.

By the 1950s and 1960s, belief in fairies had more or less died out but even then it was still said that some Welsh people were actually descended from the fairies!

There is a story about a family of doctors from around Merthyr( I think),that were supposed to be descended from faeries!

Heber, you might also compare the last picture on that Lyon site with the more complete seated female river deity, sculpted in oolitic limestone, on p. 34 of the material I sent you.

I wonder if the Sequana statues could be holding some sort of amphora or "Rebekah's jar," and pouring out the healing waters of the Seine. There is something missing from all of them, but the bronze one is almost intact -- except for whatever she is doing with her hands.

Razyn,

Thanks for the images. Sequana empty hands appear to be holding something, which has not survived. Could it have been a snake. In several images of Celtic healing goddesses you have the image of a snake.Have a look at this modern interpretation of Sequana in Cambarra. She is associated with an Asklepios type snake. Good to know that she is still appreciated.Other Celtic healing gods are:

'The statue of Sirona shows her carrying a bowl of eggs (Green 1986 p. 162) and holding a long snake coiled around her lower arm (a link to the iconography of the Greek healing goddess Hygeia, daughter of Asklepios).'

In Ireland Bridget is the Goddess of healing and blacksmithing (metalworking).She is specifically a patroness to the Druids in her aspects of poetry (Bards), healing and prophecy (Ovates) and blacksmithing.11 (Druids).Brigit is sometimes referred to as a “Triple Goddess”, havingtwo sisters, also named Brigit. More commonly, she isconsidered a triple aspect deity because she is the patroness ofthree primary skills in the Celtic world – poetry, healing andsmithcrafting. In this image, one image carries a pair ofblacksmith tongs and a sword, another image is handling twohealing snakes, and a third image carries a wand with acrescent moon and a tablet.The SerpentOne of her symbols is a white snake that spiralsupon a wand. “La Bride breith an earaich, thig andearrais as an tom.” (The Day of Bride, theBirthday of Spring, the Serpent emerges from theknoll.

In an Irish context the Daoine Sí/Aos Sí would be better equated with the Elves of Tolkein's mythos. If anything he did utilised Irish mythology quite abit. Though he did reported that he loathed the Irish language (something to do with finding it difficult to master).

The central premise of course is that in the syncrethic histories as formulated in the 7th-8th century the Tuatha Dé Danann (The People of Goddess Danu) was regarded as a previous race who had magical powers and who were defeated by the sons of the imagined Míl. The agreement reached been that the Irish would take the aboveground and the Tuatha Dé would take the "underworld". As a result they retreated into the Sí (Sidhe) -- burial mounds. Thence to be known in later folklore as the Daoine Sí (People of the Sí). Hence the word Banshee derives from "Bean Sí" -- literally "woman of the Sí"

Of course given that the "histories" were written in Christian times you ended up with Celtic deities such as Lú (Lugh) been "mortalised" as a member of the Tuatha Dé. Likewise the features of the Bean Sí are directly lifted from features of war/death goddess such as the Mórríoghan (the screem, the old hag combing her hair etc.)

She is beautiful, on her duck boat. Thanks for posting. What does the duck signify?

I have the guide book from that museum (of archaeology, in Dijon). The curators seem reasonably confident that she is Sequana (there is no inscription, but she was found in the remains of a busy Sequana temple at the source of the Seine). The extensive caption with a good photo of this statue is more concerned with what she might have been holding, the nature of her clothing, and whether the statue actually stood on the pedestal but the boat is a separate artifact (they were found together, but not assembled as one unit). The shrine also contained close to a thousand ex voto tokens, many representing body parts in need of healing, and coins. Their period (Gallo-Romain) is stated as 52 BC to 476 AD.

If you want to see some of the material under copyright that I don't want to post, give me an email address via PM and I can zap you photos of it, to study or post as you see fit. The captioning and discussion is all in French, btw.

Razyn,

Here is a nice image and analysis from the University of Lyon.

"In the representation of Sequana, the duck obviously symbolizes the water of the river.1831 Deyts argues that this statue must have been offered by merchants, traders or boatmen, who wanted to honour the protectress and benefactress of water-borne trade on the River Seine."

" Indo-European peoples named major rivers after Danu, Sinann, and other goddesses. The Marne in northern France was named Matrona in the first century BCE. The eastern Gauls built some twenty monuments to the goddess Nantosuelta, whose name meant “winding river.” [Thevenot, 167; Ross, 219-20] Shrines grew up along the shores of the Severn (named after the goddess Sabrina) in Wales and at the source of the Seine, named after the goddess Sequana. [Ross, 22] The Gauls made pilgrimages there to pray to Sequana for healing, casting votive tablets and oaken images of humans, animals, and afflicted body parts into her spring. A bronze from Sequana's temple shows a Romanized goddess standing in a boat, spinning. Her vessel is shaped like a duck with a berry in its bill. "

Why are you talking about one subclade etc? This thread is about Celtic religion.

Regarding the learned classes of the Celts, yes I am sure they did know more but what had been written down is a garbled fragment and scholars in the field of ancient Irish literature are very aware that by the time the invasion myths were written down they really didnt have much of a clue about 3500 years earlier and were making much of it up. Same with the Britons with all that Brutus and Trojan origin guff. Indeed, the Irish Book of invasions matieraland the Brutus/Trojan stuff relating to the Britons both first appear in the same text of Nennius 'History of the Britons' in the 9th century AD. Now why do people totally dismiss the Brutus stuff out of hand but give credibility to the Irish book of invasions? They are basically the same thing and contemporary- Celtic monastic attempts to reconstruct the lost deeper history using classical and Med. references mixed with some native elements. Scholars (most of them from Ireland) have forensically looked into this over the last few decades and concluded that it has extremely little historical value, bordering on zero once you get past the last couple of centuries BC.

Well, indirectly the characteristics of the Celtic pantheon that set it apart from other IE peoples may echo something of the cultural ethnogenesis of the Celts and allow some speculation on whether this fits the proposed origin in the copper and bronze age of western Europe. If it does then this strengthens the identification with a particular area and culture (in this case the hypothesis is beaker and early post-beaker). I think there is an elevated focus on crafts and skills and voyaging (especially sea voyaging) in Celtic mythology which may reflect the Copper/Bronze Age golden age when craft and trading were booming in the Atlantic and beyond. So indirectly this links to the beakers and of course to the one out of one M269XU106 beaker-R1b correlation from ancient DNA (100% lol). The thread is a bit of a tangent but this site is for a chin wag on anything and everything and not to be taken too seriously.

One clue is the two main styles of wrist-bracer. The only type found among the Early or Southern Bell Beakers are narrow with two holes. Broader, four-holed types predominate in Central Europe. England and Scotland lean heavily towards elaborate four-hole types, while Ireland has almost exclusively two-holed types. Now two-holed types are also found in Central Europe. But still I think there is a suggestion here of some early BB in Ireland coming up the Atlantic route, though their descendants may have been swamped at some point by those coming up the other route.

Concerning the BB people themselves;were they all of the same physical type?

As you know, there is a paper regarding isles BB groups in "Bell Beakers Today". However, the paper mostly groups the different local styles and makes almost no attempts to link the isles BB groups to continental regional groups. As such, it has always been difficult for me to quantify N. France BB influences from Rhine BB influences. Do you know of any papers that deal specifically with BB flows from the continent and into the isles?

It is worth noting that the grave at Upper Largie other is twice as big as it's Dutch cousins it also has a cairn rather than more usual low mound and the arrangemnet of ditch and posts also differs however there is another "Dutch " style beaker from Scotland , e.g. Newmill a few miles north of perth .

They went in for sun worship, though that was common throughout Europe in the fourth millennium BC. Stela No. 1 from Sion actually depicts a rising sun, and thousands of Beaker graves in the East Group place the dead so each one faced eastwards towards the sunrise.

An Irish godess holding a snake when there are no snakes in Ireland could surgest the godes was a recent import or close contact with elsewhere or we would see a replacement of the snake. Unless of course the 'druids' were very strict in the preservation of the history.

An Irish godess holding a snake when there are no snakes in Ireland could surgest the godes was a recent import or close contact with elsewhere or we would see a replacement of the snake. Unless of course the 'druids' were very strict in the preservation of the history.

Perhaps, the story of St Patrick banishing the snakes from Ireland represents early Christianity replacing the old Celtic Pagan religion and icons, eg. snakes, in the country. Christianity converted most of the Celtic holy places and gods to Christian icons. St Bridget replaced the Goddess Bridget and the Celtic holy wells became sites for Christian churches and holy fonts. Halloween became All Saints Day. I suspect that many of the bards, olavs and Druids found roles in the early Church and this may explain the efforts extended to preserve the Celtic oral tradition and put it to writing. In Gaeic culture certain families took on specialist roles of Brehons, Eranaghs, Bards, Eccliastiacs and this may just be a continuity of the Celtic societial structure.

Us Irish have been siad to place more emphasis on Mary and female saints than other countrires. Thats Irish catholics, protestants don't.b I think thats as Herber implied due to the method of Christianization presumably.