Akira Ifukube Interview III

by David Milner

Translation by Yoshihiko Shibata

(Conducted in December 1995)

Akira Ifukube, one of Japan's most highly regarded classical
composers, scored GODZILLA - KING OF THE MONSTERS (1954), TERROR
OF MECHAGODZILLA (1975), GODZILLA VS. DESTROYER (1995), and many
other science fiction films. He also scored numerous dramas and
period movies.

David Milner: What made you decide to score GODZILLA VS.
DESTROYER?

Akira Ifukube: I decided not to score GODZILLA VS. SPACE
GODZILLA (1994) when I read the script for the film. The
atmosphere was very different. However, when I read the
screenplay for GODZILLA VS. DESTROYER, I discovered that it was
directly related to GODZILLA - KING OF THE MONSTERS. There was
even going to be footage from GODZILLA - KING OF THE MONSTERS in
the movie! I felt that since I'd been involved in Godzilla's
birth, it was fitting for me to be involved in his death. I also
was interested because Momoko Kochi was going to return.
(Godzilla dies in GODZILLA VS. DESTROYER. Ms. Kochi plays Emiko
Yamane, the daughter of paleontologist Kyohei Yamane, in both
GODZILLA - KING OF THE MONSTERS and GODZILLA VS. DESTROYER.)

DM: I've heard that Toho was originally going to put the
Godzilla series on hiatus after GODZILLA VS. MECHAGODZILLA
(1993). Is this true? (The Toho Company Ltd. produced all twenty-
two of the Godzilla films. It also produced RODAN (1956), MOTHRA
(1961), and many other science fiction movies.)

AI: I and all of the other staff members thought that
GODZILLA VS. MECHAGODZILLA was going to be the last Godzilla film
made by Toho for a while. During the closing credits, Godzilla
and Baby Godzilla are seen leaving man behind as they head out to
sea. However, the movie was very successful, so Toho's executives
decided to produce another entry in the series.

When I read the script for GODZILLA VS. SPACE GODZILLA, it
reminded me of teenage idol films. In addition, the movie was
going to have rap music in it. So, I thought, "Well, this is not
my world, so I better not score this one."

DM: Did you run into any unusual problems while scoring
GODZILLA VS. DESTROYER?

AI: I couldn't decide whether to use a different motif for
each of Destroyer's incarnations or simply reorchestrate the same
motif for each one. I eventually decided to use the same motif.
(Destroyer transforms several times. He starts off as a
microscopic organism, and ends up as a huge flying monster.)

I composed a total of forty-six pieces for GODZILLA VS.
DESTROYER. There were many changes made to the film during
production, so it was very difficult for me to do my work.

DM: Did you use the oxygen destroyer theme from GODZILLA -
KING OF THE MONSTERS to help remind the audience of that movie?
(The oxygen destroyer is used to kill Godzilla at the end of
GODZILLA - KING OF THE MONSTERS.)

AI: Yes. I used the theme in the scene in which Emiko has
a nightmare about the oxygen destroyer. I used a harp for the
introduction of the theme, but the younger people in the
recording booth felt that the introduction was too reminiscent of
classical music. So, only one of the notes played by the harpist
ended up being used. I was very surprised. To me, the harp is
merely one of the instruments of the orchestra.

By the way, shortly after we finished recording the score for
GODZILLA VS. DESTROYER, a young music critic named Atsushi
Kobayashi told me that the original introduction was better. So,
I think that opinion about the harp is divided among young
people.

I intentionally avoided using the oxygen destroyer theme for
Destroyer. I used the theme to help express the tragedy of Dr.
Serizawa, so it wasn't appropriate for the monster. (Destroyer's
mutation is triggered by residue from the oxygen destroyer.
Daisuke Serizawa, the inventor of the device, commits suicide in
the interest of preventing the wrong people from obtaining the
knowledge necessary to make a copy of it.)

I was sent a VHS tape with the hypothetical sequence in which
Godzilla melts down and destroys all of Tokyo on it during
production, and I wrote music that lasted exactly as long as the
sequence. Unfortunately, it was changed late in production, so
the timing does not match precisely.

I didn't use the music from the scene in which Godzilla dies in
GODZILLA - KING OF THE MONSTERS for the one in which he does
actually meltdown because Godzilla was not what I was trying to
focus on this time. Instead, I tried to focus on the dark side of
humanity, which lead to the creation of atomic weapons, and
Godzilla.

The recording engineer wanted to have the music become louder
when the first close-up of Godzilla appears during the meltdown
sequence, but I told him that since the music was not about
Godzilla, it should not become louder or softer. Both he and the
members of his staff agreed.

DM: How much time were you given to score GODZILLA VS.
DESTROYER?

AI: I began writing individual motifs right after I
received the script in July. I frequently went to Toho to see
rushes once filming got underway. After seeing the rough cut, I
spent four days composing and orchestrating.

I wasn't very happy with the way the music for Battra turned out.
It was hard to tell whether it was a motif or just transitional
material. So, I tried to avoid having that happen again. (Battra,
a "battle Mothra," appears in GODZILLA VS. MOTHRA.)

DM: Was GODZILLA VS. DESTROYER edited much?

AI: Yes. Never before had I scored a movie that was edited
so much. After listening to the two compact disc set featuring
the music from the film, you'll see how much I had to change the
score to accommodate all of the editing. (The two compact disc
set features a large number of outtakes.)

When I worked with Ishiro Honda, we would decide which scenes
would feature music before the recording of the score began.
However, directors these days often change their mind about
musical cues during the recording sessions. If I were using
synthesizers and computers I could probably change the music
easily, but since I use a full orchestra, it's very difficult for
me to do so. (Mr. Honda directed GODZILLA - KING OF THE MONSTERS,
TERROR OF MECHAGODZILLA, and many other science fiction movies.)

DM: How much time did you spend recording the score?

AI: We spent two days recording, two days mixing, and two
days dubbing the film. I later spent two days working with the
sound effects director to finalize both the sound effects and the
music.

The recording sessions were held on October 27th and 28th, and
the mixing was done on the 29th and 30th. The sound effects
director and I met on November 13th and 14th. The first private
screening of GODZILLA VS. DESTROYER was held on November 17th.

AI: No. He was very busy shooting and editing, so he had
little time to devote to the score.

DM: What made you decide to use one of the themes from
KING KONG VS. GODZILLA (1962) during the closing credits?

AI: They feature footage from Godzilla movies spanning
more than forty years. It's easy to show clips from a number of
the films in two and a half minutes, but it's impossible to
perform themes from many of them in such a short amount of time.

I didn't want to use only motifs that I'd written for Godzilla
because the end result would have sounded too much like my
SYMPHONIC FANTASIA. So, I decided to use the Faroh Island theme
from KING KONG VS. GODZILLA and the Adonoa Island theme from
GODZILLA VS. MECHAGODZILLA. (SYMPHONIC FANTASIA is a suite
featuring music from many of the science fiction movies that Mr.
Ifukube scored.)

After one of my students saw GODZILLA VS. DESTROYER, he told me
that none of the members of the audience left the theater during
the ending credits. My guess was that the people stayed to see
the clips from the earlier Godzilla films, but my student thought
that since the credits covered most of the screen, the audience
must have stayed to hear the music.

DM: Are you pleased with your score for GODZILLA VS.
DESTROYER?

AI: I can't really offer an opinion on it yet. Maybe I
will be able to after a few years have passed.

Many people have come up to me and said that they like the score
very much. In fact, several have said that they think it is the
best of all of my recent scores.

DM: You composed much more music for THE LITTLE PRINCE AND
THE EIGHT-HEADED DRAGON (1963) than you did for most of the other
movies you scored. How much time did you spend working on that
film?

AI: Since it was an animated movie, I was given a much
longer period of time than usual to write the score. I spent
about four months working on it.

Music for animated films must help express the nature of each of
the characters. So, you have to compose much more music than you
would for a standard movie. In addition, I was asked to create
all of the sound effects, and that took a large amount of time.

DM: How much time did you spend writing music and how much
time did you spend creating sound effects?

AI: I can't remember. I was working on another project at
the same time.

My clearest memory about scoring THE LITTLE PRINCE AND THE EIGHT-
HEADED DRAGON is about working on the music heard during the
dance of the goddess. I composed and recorded the music, and then
a professional ballet dancer came in and performed to it. The
animators watched what she did and modeled their work after her
dancing. That's why the timing of the music and the movements of
the goddess match so well.

DM: Did you find creating the sound effects difficult?

AI: Choosing the instruments with which to create them
took a very long time.

DM: Did you often work on more than one project at a time?

AI: I never scored more than one film at a time. However,
I did sometimes work on an orchestral piece or conduct research
while I was in the process of composing a score.

DM: How much time did you spend scoring THE THREE
TREASURES (1959)?

AI: I spent about as much time working on that movie as I
did working on THE LITTLE PRINCE AND THE EIGHT-HEADED DRAGON. I
had to conduct a lot of research. (THE THREE TREASURES is based
on KOJIKI, the mythological story of the creation of Japan.)

We had to create replicas of a number of ancient musical
instruments. For example, we had a ceramic artist make a replica
of a stone flute. It was one of the instruments played by the
gods during the dance sequence. We also used some authentic
ancient musical instruments.

The stone flute replica is seen in THE THREE TREASURES, but the
sound heard coming from it was created with a bamboo flute. The
sound produced by the replica was just too weak.

By the way, I was asked to find the score for THE LITTLE PRINCE
AND THE EIGHT-HEADED DRAGON recently so the dance music could be
performed for a television program.

I remember that the animators were not very knowledgeable about
musical instruments. So, I drew pictures of many for them. That's
how each of the gods ended up playing a different instrument.

DM: Did you find scoring the Majin films any easier or
harder than scoring the other movies you worked on because they
were all made in the same year? (MAJIN - THE MONSTER OF TERROR
(1966), THE RETURN OF THE GIANT MAJIN (1966), and MAJIN
COUNTERATTACK (1966) were produced by the Daiei Motion Picture
Company Ltd., which also produced all of the Gamera films.)

AI: It was easier because I just reused the same theme for
Majin in all three movies. The only difficult aspect was creating
the theme in the first place.

It is hard to compose music for a god.

By the way, when I was asked to score the first Majin film, I was
told that it was going to be very similar to THE GOLEM (1936).

DM: Did you generally find scoring period movies any
easier or harder than scoring films set in the present?

AI: I generally found period movies easy to score. The
actors' performances were always either exaggerated or very
formal, and that made scoring the films easy for me.

There were no cars or telephones in the distant past, so there
are very few ambient noises heard in period movies. That's why I
always had to compose more music for them than for films set in
the present.

Back when the studios were using Mitchell cameras, which made a
loud cranking noise, the microphones would pick up the noise. So,
I was often asked to try to mask it.

Family dramas were the most difficult movies for me to score. It
was always hard for me to compose music to accompany
grandparents, parents, and children talking to each other. There
are composers who are very good at that sort of thing, but it was
always very difficult for me.

DM: Who came up with the idea to produce the recent four
compact disc set featuring many of your orchestral works?

AI: Hisaki Matsushita of the King Record Company. I didn't
think he was serious when he first approached me, but he did soon
afterward reach an agreement with the Japan Philharmonic Symphony
Orchestra to produce the discs. Almost all of my orchestral works
had only been recorded live, so Mr. Matsushita decided to produce
studio recordings.

Mr. Matsushita went to China to retrieve the score for ARCTIC
FOREST. Unfortunately, since he went during the fiftieth
anniversary of the end of World War II, the person who had the
score refused to give it to him out of fear of adversely
affecting relations between China and Japan. (Mr. Ifukube
composed ARCTIC FOREST in 1944.)

It was very brave of Mr. Matsushita to include OVERTURE OF THE
SOLDIERS in the collection. Very few of the orchestral works
written by Japanese composers during the war have been released
on compact disc.

I remember that Mr. Matsushita said, "If this project fails, I
probably will be fired." Fortunately, the discs are selling well.

DM: What was your role in the production of the discs?

AI: Executive director.

Shortly after the collection was released, the Fontec Company
came out with a compact disc featuring the premiere performance
of JAPANESE SUITE. In addition, a disc featuring a performance of
the piece by the New Japan Philharmonic Orchestra was released.

DM: Why were the four compact discs recorded with analog
equipment instead of digital equipment?

AI: Hatsuro Takanami, the chief recording engineer, made
that decision. He told me what his reasons were, but I couldn't
understand them because they were too technical.

DM: Are you pleased with the way the collection turned
out?

AI: I haven't listened to it carefully yet, so I can't
comment on it.

By the way, the conductor, Junichi Hirokami, was a student of
mine at the Tokyo College of Music's Institute of
Ethnomusicology.

DM: Did Akkeshi Forest inspire you to write TRIPTYQUE
ABORIGENE? (Mr. Ifukube was working as a ranger in the forest
when he wrote the piece.)

AI: It did. The women of the countryside were very hard
workers, so I decided to depict them in the first movement,
Payses. The title of the second movement, Timbe, is the name of a
cliff on which Japanese forces once killed a group of Ainu. I
used to live near the top of that cliff. Pakkai, the third
movement, is the name of a song that Ainu men used to sing and
dance to when they were drunk. (The Ainu are Japan's equivalent
of Native Americans.)

DM: During one of our earlier conversations, you mentioned
that JAPANESE RHAPSODY was very well received by foreign music
critics. Was BALLATA SINFONICA also well received by them?

AI: JAPANESE RHAPSODY, which was premiered in Boston,
became very famous internationally during the 1930s. However,
there was no way for BALLATA SINFONICA to be heard by foreign
audiences because I composed it in 1943.

SINFONIA TAPKAARA was premiered in Indianapolis. The United
States' embassy in Tokyo helped arrange the performance. I
remember giving the score to a member of the ambassador's staff.

I later found out that the Indianapolis Symphony Orchestra
performed Alexander Tcherepnin's Third Symphony shortly after
performing SINFONIA TAPKAARA. So, I think Mr. Tcherepnin may have
helped arrange its debut. Unfortunately, he died before I had a
chance to ask him. (Mr. Ifukube was a student of Mr.
Tcherepnin's.)

DM: Was the approach you took toward writing KISHI MAI any
different from the one you took toward writing OVERTURE FOR THE
SOLDIERS? (Mr. Ifukube wrote KISHI MAI for the Japanese Navy and
OVERTURE FOR THE SOLDIERS for the Army.)

AI: I don't remember if the Defense Ministry commissioned
those pieces or NHK did. All I remember is that I tried to avoid
writing ordinary marches. (NHK is Japan's equivalent of PBS.)

I hadn't seen the score for OVERTURE FOR THE SOLDIERS in more
than fifty years. The title was written in French and all of the
instructions were in English. I don't know if the piece was ever
performed during the war or not.

DM: You included one of the motifs that you composed for
SALOME in the score for BATTLE IN OUTER SPACE (1959). Did you
often use material from your orchestral works in your film
scores?

AI: I would do that whenever I was rushed.

I always feel a little guilty when I hear that another of my
scores is going to be released on compact disc. I thought that
the scores would be heard in the theater and then forgotten. I
never imagined that they would be made available on compact disc.

By the way, I took my wife to see GODZILLA VS. DESTROYER in one
of the theaters in the Yurakucho Mullion Building. She said to
me, "For forty years you have not taken me to see the movies you
score, so why don't you take me to this one?" Unfortunately, we
went on a rainy day, and I caught a cold.

DM: What did your wife think of the film?

AI: She just said, "He's huge!" She is used to watching
television.

DM: What prompted you to compose RONDO IN BURLESQUE?

AI: It was commissioned by a music association. The
original arrangement was strictly for brass band, but then I was
asked to add some additional drumming to the arrangement to help
give the band run by the university at which I was teaching a
more Japanese-sounding repertoire for its upcoming tour of the
United States. A number of years later, I was commissioned to
orchestrate RONDO IN BURLESQUE so it could be used to round out a
performance of SYMPHONIC FANTASIA. (RONDO IN BURLESQUE also
features themes from science fiction movies Mr. Ifukube scored.)

DM: Do you prefer the orchestral arrangement of JAPANESE
SUITE to the original piano arrangement of the piece?

AI: The orchestral arrangement was commissioned by the
Suntory Music Foundation, which holds a special concert featuring
the music of one composer every year. After I was chosen to be
the composer in 1991, I was asked to orchestrate JAPANESE SUITE
for the special concert.

I feel that the original piano arrangement and the orchestral one
both have advantages. The piano arrangement is very difficult to
play, so the orchestral one is performed more often.

AI: JAPANESE RHAPSODY is a very ambitious piece that I
wrote when I was very young. I couldn't write a piece like it
now.

I like the form of SINFONIA TAPKAARA.

I felt very fulfilled when I wrote SHAKA because it was very
difficult for me to compose an extended work that didn't sound
European.

By the way, a French company released SHAKA on compact disc
recently. The company at first could not afford plastic cases, so
it used cardboard packaging. Later on, after the disc proved to
be successful, the company reissued it in plastic cases.

DM: What prompted you to write MUSIC GUIDE?

AI: Many Japanese people lost interest in traditional
music during the early 1950s. All they wanted to hear was
European and American music. So, I tried to promote traditional
music. I discussed the history of music from its beginnings in
ancient times through to the end of World War II. Another reason
why I wrote the book was that I'd noticed that people tended to
form opinions about music not by actually listening to it, but by
reading reviews of it. So, I tried to persuade people to listen
with their own ears.

DM: Did you have any difficulty finding a publisher?

AI: Kanami, the publishing company, approached me.

DM: What prompted you to write ORCHESTRATION?

AI: I taught at a music college after the war, and spent a
lot of time researching orchestration. I'd had the idea to write
a book on the subject for many years. I thought that amateur
composers would find such a book very helpful.

Unfortunately, I lost the manuscript shortly after I completed
it. It fell out a window while I was riding a train home from
work. I went to look for the manuscript the next day, but
couldn't find it.

Fortunately, I remembered everything that I'd written. So, I
managed to rewrite the book. The process took me about a
year.

Volume Two was published about fifteen years after Volume One.
One reason why I didn't write it earlier was a lack of acoustic
research. Another was that I had to use a lot of charts that had
been created by various researchers, and obtaining permission to
do so took a very long time.

The materials I used for teaching were my own manuscripts. At one
point I was told not to use them because they were too advanced,
so I resigned.

There were a lot of misprints in ORCHESTRATION when it was first
published. That was because the text was in English, German, and
Italian along with Japanese. Even the dedication to Mr.
Tcherepnin, which was in Russian because he was Russian, wasn't
printed correctly. It was very frustrating for me. However, I'm
very glad the book was published. It's the story of my life.