immigration bill

This is a discussion on immigration bill within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Honestly the biggest problem I can see is that "papers" can and are easily forged....

How will the law help? Will the state fund its own illegal exportation system, or just jail them and build jails and compounds as they fill up?

I see what you're saying, but would it be any more expensive than paying for the costs of them now? Also, some things rise beyond cost and revenue lost, etc. Even if it would lose revenue for the state, ( which I'm not convinced it would ), that's secondary to a total disregard for the laws of this country. Either way, somebody's not going to be happy, but it's crossed the line when murder and kidnapping have entered the equation. We need to do what it takes to end it now.

I think putting them in jail for a day or two and putting them on a bus to the border would be cheaper than clogging up the ER's and getting medical care that they dont pay for, getting SS benefits that they dont pay into, and all of the other benefits that we are giving them,which is esentially rewarding them for being here illegally.

re: Glockman10mm

Originally Posted by glockman10mm

How will the law help? Will the state fund its own illegal exportation system, or just jail them and build jails and compounds as they fill up?

Well you know, Sheriff Joe will have a tent waiting. But who knows who he'll be keeping as a guest? It won't be my naturalized citizen wife because we sure won't give the authorities a chance to make that mistake-- we'll stay away from AZ.

Now even if they could accurately sort folks, and made no mistakes, one has to wonder how they will deal with a rapid rise in confined individuals and under what sort of conditions the confinement will occur, and what will bring it to an end.

Does AZ have any legal authority whatsoever to deport anyone? Isn't that a Federal matter solely?

If they can't deport then they'll fill the jails till they run out of tax money and then have to find a way to release everyone. Back to square one.

I would think the power to deport is strictly a Federal one, and I have a hunch that after this stunt is underway-- if it isn't done in by the courts before implementation--that Uncle isn't going to be too happy about reallocating its ICE resources from other endeavors.

There was someone I think from ICE on TV today already stating that they can not be forced to reallocate resources and that it is myth that they aren't doing their job. They said they concentrated on rounding up and deporting criminal illegal aliens because those were the ones who posed a danger to all of us, and that they did not want to be forced to reallocate to AZ and in so doing diminish their efforts at ridding of us of the most dangerous ones first.

It is easy to say, my wife is going to get deported and her rights violated when you don't have clue one how the system works. You just trying to create hysteria..

Lets just say that some how you find yourself in Arizona, you took a wrong turn in New Mexico, happens all the time..and a police officer actually notices that your wife is of hispanic decent. First off, she would not be the first person of hispanic decent that the officer (who is most likley also of hispanic decent or has a close friend of relative who is the same) has seen today. But he notices...He feels the need to check it out because she might be illegal...stay with me..I know this is a stretch.

First you must violate some other law before the officer can even stop you, but let just say ..hmmm..your turn signal is out..and you get stopped.

The officer approaches your car and he asks for your license and insurance (papers please)..He would have to have something that makes him believe that your wife is illegal..something reasonable..that tells him that she is different than the hundreds of other AZ citizens of hispanic decent who are going about their daily lives around him every minute of the day..

If some how, he makes that leap..he asks her for her documentation and she states I am a naturalized citizen...He must now believe that she is lying..so lets say he doesn't believe her & he contacts the INS who verifies her status..which would be that she is a naturalized citizen..

Here's your fix it ticket have a nice day.

Now to go from the first observation to the "what is your status question" is a leap. I mean a Grand Canyon size leap.. which you should come see it, it would give you some prospective..

And worse, if the LEOs don't do that, they face lawsuits from their own citizens. That provision in the present misguided law hasn't been kicked around here and discussed in any way, but it will surely damage the budgets of at least some departments.

Actually, that provision will never be used to sue individual officers. The purpose is to stop mayors (like Phil Gordon, the Phoenix mayor from declaring their towns "sanctuary cities" and ordering police to ask absolutely no questions regarding a person's immigration status. That is what the Phoenix mayor and a few others have done. It may make the budgets of some cities suffer if the mayor decides to break the law that was just passed. It won't, though, take them long to "figger it out."

Of course if the legislators had proposed random paper checks for everyone this bill wouldn't have passed because everyone would have been screaming about "papers please."

It is a matter of whose ox is being gored, isn't it?

Actually, I believe most Arizona citizens would be okay with being asked their immigration status if it resolves the illegal alien problem. I know I certainly have no problem with it. After all, most of them would like a fighting chance of getting a job instead of seeing many of them taken by illegals getting paid under the table.

Originally Posted by morintp

We have a ton of laws to fight illegal immigration. Why don't we enforce the ones already on the books?

Well, now, that is a good question. The laws are already there; the federal government just chooses not to enforce it. In other words they are too busy passing federal laws (that violate our Constitution) to do their job. That being the case, Arizona has to pass their own law. This law actually does a couple of things. Obviously, it has provisions to deal with illegal immigration in our state but more importantly it shows the federal government that if they are not going to do their job, we'll do it for them. If all of you people that don't like this law and would like to see it struck down, contact your Congressman and tell them to insist that the federal government seal and protect our borders and enforce current immigration laws. If you can get them to do that I will work to get Arizona's law repealed.

Originally Posted by morintp

Why are business owners allowed to get away with hiring illegals? Until they face consequences, they will continue to hire illegals and the problem will never go away. Take away illegal alien's source of income, and they will not come. You can pass all of the laws you want, but as long as they have a way to make money, they will keep coming.

You should read the bill. There are plenty of provisions that address employers that employ them. Below is the applicable sections where you can find what the consequences are for employers. It is actually the best part if the bill. Of course all of the illegals, Mexicans that have been bused into Arizona from LA to protest the bill aren't complaining about this part of the bill because "their ox isn't getting gored" (directly) by these sections.

This provision makes it illegal for businesses, or individuals, to hire illegal aliens for "day labor". If you have never seen what is going on, groups of illegals stand on street corners waiting for someone to stop and hire them for the day, paying cash of course. These corners are almost always a "pig sty" with trash, beer bottles and human excrement. They often get so populated that customers cannot get into business parking lots. Crime in these day labor areas are also high. Shoplifting, fights, drug and alcohol abuses, carjacking are frequently the result.

This provision makes it illegal for them to apply for a job or perform any work for pay:

C. IT IS UNLAWFUL FOR A PERSON WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES AND WHO IS AN UNAUTHORIZED ALIEN TO KNOWINGLY APPLY FOR WORK, SOLICIT
WORK IN A PUBLIC PLACE OR PERFORM WORK AS AN EMPLOYEE OR INDEPENDENT CONTRACTOR IN THIS STATE.

Tyson and many many other employers who play the same game plus an unwillingness of ICE to actually seriously deal with the employers who cheat.

You are correct and since ICE has been instructed not to "seriously deal" with the problem, Arizona has decided that the problem must be solved. A state taking the initiative to do what is right seems to me to be an admirable thing to do. It's too bad the federal government is shirking its responsibility but we have to do what is necessary to protect the state.

Originally Posted by Hopyard

Does AZ have any legal authority whatsoever to deport anyone? Isn't that a Federal matter solely?

If they can't deport then they'll fill the jails till they run out of tax money and then have to find a way to release everyone. Back to square one.

I would think the power to deport is strictly a Federal one, and I have a hunch that after this stunt is underway-- if it isn't done in by the courts before implementation--that Uncle isn't going to be too happy about reallocating its ICE resources from other endeavors.

There was someone I think from ICE on TV today already stating that they can not be forced to reallocate resources and that it is myth that they aren't doing their job. They said they concentrated on rounding up and deporting criminal illegal aliens because those were the ones who posed a danger to all of us, and that they did not want to be forced to reallocate to AZ and in so doing diminish their efforts at ridding of us of the most dangerous ones first.

Read the darned bill. It spells it out for you. They will be turned over to ICE. It doesn't matter what the ICE "representatives" that go on TV say, ICE will pick them up and they will take them back to the border. It's the political "ICE representatives" that are whining, crying and making excuses why law won't work.

Bare with me, doing this on iPhone . Reading the bill is one thing, but what I think worries people is that if the proper checks and balances ar not inplace thru proper wording, it can be misused. Check out the thread about the man being arrested for open carry in a place where open carry is legal. Everyone here cries foul about that, but refuses to acknowlede that there may be misuse of the new law in AZ if not done correctly. Donot make the mistake that it will not effect you. Noone is saying that AZ is wrong for trying to take care of it's state, all some of us are saying is let's make sure it's done in a way that is legal, substainble, and does not violate the rights of legal
residents based on apperance.

re" TapRackBang

Originally Posted by TapRackBang

Hopyard..

The officer approaches your car and he asks for your license and insurance (papers please)..He would have to have something that makes him believe that your wife is illegal..something reasonable..that tells him that she is different than the hundreds of other AZ citizens of hispanic decent who are going about their daily lives around him every minute of the day..

And what would be reasonable? All he will ever have to go on is appearance, and accent. The AZ law allows for an arrest at the officer's discretion, on what the officer believes to be reasonable, it doesn't codify what the criteria are. I know lawful immigrants and naturalized citizizens here who have arrived in their mid early 50s, who never quite fully learned English or our ways, but who do become citizens. What criteria will an officer have that would allow him to distinguish those from others?

Moreover, but I'm repeating myself, the officer will have no way to know if a young adult was raised here illegally because they will appear American in accent and body language. Hence the law won't even really achieve its objective of catching illegals. In reality it will work like the old-time vagrancy laws. If you look like a bum and are in the wrong place you will get picked up.

And what is the officer to do with an illegal who lies and says he is naturalized? Ask for proof of status? That gets back to the basic problem of creating unequal burdens and unequal justice. It means some citizens will need to walk around with documents not required of others. (And btw, not that it matters for this discussion, my wife is not Mexican or Hispanic, but she gets mistaken for being that.)

It is one thing for this sort of question to come up at a border crossing, but then passports are now required of all US citizens equally at border crossings. In land, it is a totally different situation.

If some how, he makes that leap..he asks her for her documentation and she states I am a naturalized citizen...He must now believe that she is lying..so lets say he doesn't believe her & he contacts the INS who verifies her status..which would be that she is a naturalized citizen..

It isn't going to work that way that easily. He will make the arrest. You know, the old saying. "Kill them all and let god sort it out." Some will think to themselves, "arrest them all and let the judge sort it out."

She will stay in a cell till someone from ICE gets around to checking. They will take their time. If she doesn't carry the Naturalization Certificate number or a passport in her pocket it will take them forever to verify anything at all.

ICE seldom does much of anything quickly or correctly and this won't be any different. Don't anticipate efficient verifications from them.

If she doesn't have her passport number in her pocket it will take them forever to verify her status. They will have to take finger prints, get them processed, then check Passport and Naturalization Records, which at this point are 35 years old, to verify anything. Meanwhile, she will be in in Joe's tent.

Now to go from the first observation to the "what is your status question" is a leap. I mean a Grand Canyon size leap.. which you should come see it, it would give you some prospective..

If it were a big leap as you say, they wouldn't have passed that law. They passed that law precisely because the legislature had an expectation that this is a small leap, and therefore they will catch illegals.

In response to Bumpers comment in his post that they will be turned over to ICE, what do you guys think ICE will do with most of them? The same thing it does now. Turn them loose. They are concentrating on the serious criminals, not the ordinary unfortunates. They aren't going to deport a mom with a US citizen kid if they can find a way to give her parole. They can of course legally deport, but it is something that is avoided when possible. So in those situations all that will happen is AZ resources will get used to naught.

This is a FEDERAL problem which needs a FEDERAL solution, accomplished by FEDERAL personnel. AZ was given a chance to have its officers trained to participate. If I recall some recent news stories correctly that permission had to be revoked because it wasn't exercised correctly. So, why should anyone think AZ can pull this much larger initiative off effectively and most importantly, fairly?

re: Bumper

Originally Posted by Bumper

Actually, I believe most Arizona citizens would be okay with being asked their immigration status if it resolves the illegal alien problem. I know I certainly have no problem with it. After all, most of them would like a fighting chance of getting a job instead of seeing many of them taken by illegals getting paid under the table.

Would most AZ citizens also be OK with being required to carry a passport or a birth certificate or some other proof of status? If not, why not?

The answer goes to the heart of my objection to this law.

There would be nothing wrong with this law if it required absolutely everyone to carry proof of status. It could then be enforced in a totally fair manner and would not violate the equal protection clause of our constitution. The LEO making a stop or other encounter would simply as a matter of routine ask everyone for proof of status and there would be no issue of profile, of mistakes. There would be no violation of the equal protection clause.

The problem with the law, and the position taken by some participants in this thread, is that the law (and some of you) are willing to place an unequal burden on other citizens. You are willing to expose some citizens to a risk or arrest unless they carry papers you yourselves do not want to be required to carry.

That is the core of the problem. Everything else is really small stuff.

As to the question of "reasonable", I think that if a LEO pulls a van for an infraction and finds 25 people inside of a van with seats for 8...thats suspicion with reason. If they take off running in all directions, same story. Get off the Orwellian theme that every cop is going to pull over and drop to the ground everybody that remotely looks hispanic. Ain't gonna happen. If it did, the LEO in question would be looking for another job before long. We have a legal system that the country as a whole has instituted to maintain law & order. We either have to trust that system or abolish it...which is it going to be?

Hopyard, Reading your posts makes it obvious that you have no problems with the " papers please " aspect of this, only that it applies to everyone. Well, to carry that thought forward, if a bank is robbed, should law enforcement stop EVERYBODY they encounter after leaving the bank and question them, or only the ones that fit the description of the robbers and were in the area at the time?
Profiling is a fact of law enforcement, there are different degrees, and there are abuses also, but it's just another tool to help solve a crime. If your wife were harrassed by this, I would be the first to stand up with you to defend her. But I don't think that is going to be the case.

You may not like guns. You may choose not to own one. That is your right.
You might not believe in God. That is your choice.
However, if someone breaks into your home at 3AM the first two things you are going to do are:
1) Call someone with a gun.
2)Pray they get there in time." - A wise man