The Summoning of Russia and Iran to Israel - Ezekiel 35-39

You know, it i hardly surprising that there is a hatred in the past of the ancient Israelis. You have to remember that, according to the very book
from 700 B.C. you mentioned, God ordered the Hebrews to come in to the land of Israel and kill every man, woman, and child of the Caananites. These
ancient people you put on a pedestal (and I do not hold modern Jewish people responsible for those actions) are guilty of genocide, pure and simple,
no sugar coating. They also conquered a land that was not theirs absent a several thousand year old book legislating their taking of the land.

It is time that Jewish and Christian people look these things in the eye and call it for what it is. I showed my good Jewish friend Jeff the passages
in the Bible talking about killing everybody because they were inpure, had the wrong beliefs, and would pollute the race of David. His response,
"Sounds just like Hitler."

edit on 26-2-2013 by Quetzalcoatl14 because: I wanted to denote "ancient Israelis," not present. Big difference

Are you American? We did the same to 70 million Indians. This doesn't make me the one that did it, nor does it speak to my life here in this day and
age. Are you European; Serbian; Russian or whatever? Doesn't matter. Your people did horrible things.

Did God order this? The Son of God is Adam, the father of mankind and Adam the Christ. We are all produced from Adam and we are also his forefathers
as Adam hangs on a cross. The Lord of the OT is the Son of God, the first born over all creation.

Colossians 1

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth,
visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all
things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead,
so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to
himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Cor 15

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[f]; the last Adam, a
life-giving spirit.

1 Cor 10

16 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation
in the body of Christ? 17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

We are all from ONE loaf.

No need to blame Adam. You blame yourself in the process. Job knew this:

Job 19

25 I know that my redeemer[c] lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.[d]
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet[e] in[f] my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!
28 “If you say, ‘How we will hound him,
since the root of the trouble lies in him,[g]’
29 you should fear the sword yourselves;
for wrath will bring punishment by the sword,
and then you will know that there is judgment.

Careful blaming God for the error. The root of the trouble is not in God. It is in the one that also redeemed us from that error. He paid your
price.

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl14
You know, it i hardly surprising that there is a hatred in the past of the ancient Israelis. You have to remember that, according to the very book
from 700 B.C. you mentioned, God ordered the Hebrews to come in to the land of Israel and kill every man, woman, and child of the Caananites. These
ancient people you put on a pedestal (and I do not hold modern Jewish people responsible for those actions) are guilty of genocide, pure and simple,
no sugar coating. They also conquered a land that was not theirs absent a several thousand year old book legislating their taking of the land.

It is time that Jewish and Christian people look these things in the eye and call it for what it is. I showed my good Jewish friend Jeff the passages
in the Bible talking about killing everybody because they were inpure, had the wrong beliefs, and would pollute the race of David. His response,
"Sounds just like Hitler."

edit on 26-2-2013 by Quetzalcoatl14 because: I wanted to denote "ancient Israelis," not present. Big difference

Lol, you just mentioned that it was okay for the Hebrews to commit genocide because the Caananites had "polluted DNA." Christians will often excuse
the genocide because they will say such things as:

"God had to keep the lineage of David pure. Those Caananites would defile the pure blood of God's Children."

"Satan was going to use them to corrupt God's plan for the Chosen People."

Um,,,, that is EXACTLY WHAT HITLER SAID ABOUT THE JEWS DURING WORLD WAR II, that they would defile the race of the Germans. That the Germans were the
supreme race, chosen, and had the right to rule. He said that the blood of the Jew and also other races had to be removed to retain the purity of the
German/Aryan race.

WAKE UP! Its the same racist, genocidal stuff. But you can't see it because you are blinded by religion.

With all due respect, did you even read my post. I specifically stated that modern day Jewish people are not responsible for what happened in the Old
Testament. Just like, I am not responsible for the European genocide of Native Americans (which was also wrong and cloaked in quasi-religious terms).
The Europeans too justified taking the Americas because the "savages" did not have the right beliefs (Christianity) and did not behave the same way.
This story is as old as time.

What I am saying is, I can call it like it is with the Americas, Israel, Germany (i am German by the way and detest what happened during WWII),
because I am not overly religious and seek truth and justice, even if my own people are in question. Fundamentalist Christians (and Orthodox Jews)
have trouble "calling it like it is" with the atrocities in the Old Testament because if they did their "holy book" would be called into
question. Admitting that 1) God ordered genocide 2) That it was wrong or mistakes as you say = realizing that the Bible is NOT without error. Unless
you believe in a God that condones genocide. In that case, you are no better than Hitler. Hitler believed God was on his side.

Not a problem. I understood what you were saying, but you aimed this at God. I was just saying not to blame God. We really shouldn't blame our
redeemer either, but the outline I provide for you shows that it is not God that ordered anything. It was the Son of God. As I pointed out, that is
you and I and all of humanity. It's a real cognitive dissonance if you have never realized we are all from one soul. That one soul is being raised
as a Son in the wilderness. God only provides the environment to engage what comes after. We are the only ones who can take the blame from there.

With all due respect, did you even read my post. I specifically stated that modern day Jewish people are not responsible for what happened in the Old
Testament. Just like, I am not responsible for the European genocide of Native Americans (which was also wrong and cloaked in quasi-religious terms).
The Europeans too justified taking the Americas because the "savages" did not have the right beliefs (Christianity) and did not behave the same way.
This story is as old as time.

What I am saying is, I can call it like it is with the Americas, Israel, Germany (i am German by the way and detest what happened during WWII),
because I am not overly religious and seek truth and justice, even if my own people are in question. Fundamentalist Christians (and Orthodox Jews)
have trouble "calling it like it is" with the atrocities in the Old Testament because if they did their "holy book" would be called into
question. Admitting that 1) God ordered genocide 2) That it was wrong or mistakes as you say = realizing that the Bible is NOT without error. Unless
you believe in a God that condones genocide. In that case, you are no better than Hitler. Hitler believed God was on his side.

What I am saying is, I can call it like it is with the Americas, Israel, Germany (i am German by the way and detest what happened during WWII),
because I am not overly religious and seek truth and justice, even if my own people are in question. Fundamentalist Christians (and Orthodox Jews)
have trouble "calling it like it is" with the atrocities in the Old Testament because if they did their "holy book" would be called into question.
Admitting that 1) God ordered genocide 2) That it was wrong or mistakes as you say = realizing that the Bible is NOT without error. Unless you believe
in a God that condones genocide. In that case, you are no better than Hitler. Hitler believed God was on his side.

I do understand that you are not blaming God. You are saying that the God in the OT is not the God of Love. If you know the excluded middle argument
of the Son being raised, you can then see the significance of why the OT is different than the NT. The Son was growing up. In the end, that Son is
all of us together.

Okay, well, it seems like we can talk then. So, I was raised a Christian, with the view that both the OT and NT are the unaltered, perfect
representation of God's truth. In the example of ancient OT genocide, I do not blame God for this happening.

However, once I began to read the Old Testament, I came to the conclusion that:

1) I believe in God in general
2) I do not believe that the God of justice would order genocide for all men, women, and children.
3) Therefore, these passages represent the ignorance, tribalism, or even racism of this ancient tribe we now call the Hebrew or Israelites.
4) These passages do not represent what God really wanted.
5) Thus, the Bible is not without error and is NOT the perfect representation of God.

This is one example, among several. We have to educate ourselves on everything, and then, using our God-given minds, make judgements. Just like, many
people pronounce judgements on Hinduism or atheism. Before you assert that I have no right to judge the Bible or God, or that God "confounds the
wise," realize that anybody could make that argument from any other belief system religion, or lack thereof. Such a statement does not answer
fundamental questions.

So, what you are saying is that if someone is able to, relatively compared to most religious people, be objective about patterns in behavior and
history, that they are more likely to be "imprisoned by evil."

That is ridiculous. A bigger danger is that most people, in the name of comfort and getting ahead, can self-justify just about anything. For these
reasons, religious people across history, as well as communists and other groups, have killed or suppressed all manners of "others," marginalizing
"others" due to different beliefs, looks, behaviors, and so on.

I am far less likely to be "imprisoned by evil" if I am able to think for myself. By you not being able to think for yourself, you are open to all
kinds of manipulation by people and also unable to see abuses by people from your own traditional background. This happens all over the world, with
people justifying negative actions by their own religion, ethnic group, or nation. This is one aspect of "evil."

Okay, well, it seems like we can talk then. So, I was raised a Christian, with the view that both the OT and NT are the unaltered, perfect
representation of God's truth. In the example of ancient OT genocide, I do not blame God for this happening.

However, once I began to read the Old Testament, I came to the conclusion that:

1) I believe in God in general
2) I do not believe that the God of justice would order genocide for all men, women, and children.
3) Therefore, these passages represent the ignorance, tribalism, or even racism of this ancient tribe we now call the Hebrew or Israelites.
4) These passages do not represent what God really wanted.
5) Thus, the Bible is not without error and is NOT the perfect representation of God.

This is one example, among several. We have to educate ourselves on everything, and then, using our God-given minds, make judgements. Just like, many
people pronounce judgements on Hinduism or atheism. Before you assert that I have no right to judge the Bible or God, or that God "confounds the
wise," realize that anybody could make that argument from any other belief system religion, or lack thereof. Such a statement does not answer
fundamental questions.

edit on 26-2-2013 by Quetzalcoatl14 because: (no reason given)

edit on 26-2-2013 by Quetzalcoatl14
because: (no reason given)

I understand what you are saying with this. Here is the thing. You will never find that denotative truth you are looking for apart from knowing one
thing. You can look into all ideologies and books. I have done this. You can look at all ways and modes of thinking when it comes to virtue. You
can examine all areas of knowledge, yet you won't find the axiom apart from paradox. There is only one axiom and the broad picture the Bible paints
is unified. If we say that God lost control of his Word, that would not be entirely inaccurate. His Word is the Son. The Bible is a record of this
with all the good, bad, ugly, pleasant and joyful truths. It hides nothing. This is one of the highest truths we find. The very highest truth is
the will of God to give and receive only. Love is the fulfillment of the law, a lesson the Son had to demonstrate to have the words of the Father
ring true.

And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

Our father is Adam. When Jesus said, "I and the Father are One," what did he mean? Not what you might have thought at first. Jesus is not God, yet
is the only begotten of creation. We are all part of that one loaf. It was baking and 2000 years ago, it was finished. The heel of the loaf crushes
the head of Satan.

Genesis 3

14 So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,

“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[a] and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

If you don't get it now, you will. Faith is both our faithfulness to God, but also his to us. His word is true, even if it is not the easiest to
read in places. God is still Good. The Son is grown. As Christ is, so shall we be.

According to the Bible, the Israelites came from Egypt into the land of Caanan and conquered it. They were the "wolves" or the "murderers" in this
case, the aggressors. In this case, the Caananites were invaded by a foreign entity and were thus the victims or "childs" as you prefer to use.

It is very "Orwellian" or "Brave New World"-esque of you to turn things completely around.

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