Aemilius wrote:<snip>I don't think you can put anything "that people shall be happy" in this aspiration prayer, the opposite would be more appropriate: "That they be depressed to the bone, that they decrease in number, that they decrease in industrial productivity! etc..." an other kind of wishing prayer would be self-deception,

Why on earth not? Happiness is not a deluded fantasy where one ignores the harm one does to the planet. We wish for beings happiness *and the causes of happiness*. Cause of happiness <> climate change disaster (perhaps. I'm not omniscient, so i can't say for certain that is true or not true. )

My point is, the four boundless are boundless. Wishing for beings happiness is more than 'people', more than earth, more than milky way. Its boundless to infinity and beyond! To condition it to this small place, circumstance, and time is not the point of the aspiration.

Ever see a fractal's graphical representation? Its the same sort of pattern from the infinitely small to the large. Using this as an example, i see it as an analogy of samsara, from small to large, the same patterns that create suffering. So may i match the aspirations i make to that pattern, boundless to the small, also to the large.

So if its boundless, then one can wish for beings happiness and not know limit of space, time, condition and presumption. One can wish for all beings happiness and know its not just a small group of humans on a little planet in a backwater galaxy.

"Things are not what they appear to be: nor are they otherwise." --Surangama Sutra

Phenomenon, vast as space, dharmata is your base, arising and falling like ocean tide cycles, why do i cling to your illusion of unceasing changlessness?

gnegirl wrote:Why on earth not? Happiness is not a deluded fantasy where one ignores the harm one does to the planet. We wish for beings happiness *and the causes of happiness*. Cause of happiness <> climate change disaster (perhaps. I'm not omniscient, so i can't say for certain that is true or not true. )

My point is, the four boundless are boundless. Wishing for beings happiness is more than 'people', more than earth, more than milky way. Its boundless to infinity and beyond! To condition it to this small place, circumstance, and time is not the point of the aspiration.

Ever see a fractal's graphical representation? Its the same sort of pattern from the infinitely small to the large. Using this as an example, i see it as an analogy of samsara, from small to large, the same patterns that create suffering. So may i match the aspirations i make to that pattern, boundless to the small, also to the large.

So if its boundless, then one can wish for beings happiness and not know limit of space, time, condition and presumption. One can wish for all beings happiness and know its not just a small group of humans on a little planet in a backwater galaxy.

gnegirl wrote:Why on earth not? Happiness is not a deluded fantasy where one ignores the harm one does to the planet. We wish for beings happiness *and the causes of happiness*. Cause of happiness <> climate change disaster (perhaps. I'm not omniscient, so i can't say for certain that is true or not true. )

The case is that usually happiness is worldly happiness, that is caused by acquiring new things, new pleasure, more wealth, an excellent job, property, beautifull house, wife, children, success, etc... If you lose them you become sad and depressed. Is this not so ? In the explanations of the Four Boundless States it is said that they primarily mean the spiritual and transcendental happiness. As we know a decrease in carbon dioxide production is very difficult to achieve. As an example we could agree that we cease to use cars and airplanes from tomorrow onwards, and that we move by foot or by bicycle from place to place. This kind of decision would have some effect on the carbon dioxide emissions. To achieve any real decrease in carbon dioxide emissions requires measures that will certainly cause, in the short term, serious depression and other negative emotions. Happiness would be acquired only in the longer development of this planet. Can anybody visualize it happening? That we will do deeds that will decrease the carbon dioxide emissions and the CO2 production on planet Earth ? Or are we going to leave it up to the Nature to do it ?

Last edited by Aemilius on Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Aemilius wrote:The case is that usually happiness is worldly happiness, that is caused by acquiring new things, new pleasure, more wealth, an excellent job, property, beautifull house, wife, children, success, etc... If you lose them you become sad and depressed. Is this not so ? In the explanations of the Four Boundless States it is said that they primarily mean the spiritual and transcendental happiness. As we know a decrease in carbon dioxide production is very difficult to achieve. As an example we could agree that we cease to use cars and aeroplanes from tomorrow onwards, and that we move by foot or by bicycle from place to place. This kind of decision would have some effect on the carbon dioxide emissions. To achieve any real decrease in carbon dioxide emissions requires measures that will certainly cause, in the short term, serious depression and other negative emotions. Happiness would be acquired only in the longer development of this planet. Can anybody visualize it happening? That we will do deeds that will decrease the carbon dioxide emissions and the CO2 production on planet Earth ? Or are we going to leave it up to the Nature to do it ?

I wont hold such a narrow view. Happiness aspiration is large, for all, and valid.

As for this specific problem, the vast wish still helps, because it encourages the conditions to come to fruition for its existence to have a basis.

We do not know the ultimate outcome of climate change, or anything else for that matter. Not enough for me to ever wish for someone's depression or suffering.

I do hope that the disaster is averted. Perhaps a very smart scientist team will come up with something, perhaps not. Utopia or dystopia, it does not matter, i will still aspire to work for all beings happiness.

Its how i roll....

"Things are not what they appear to be: nor are they otherwise." --Surangama Sutra

Phenomenon, vast as space, dharmata is your base, arising and falling like ocean tide cycles, why do i cling to your illusion of unceasing changlessness?

It is like the population of rats, or some other animals, or the humans. They all want to be happy, then they multiply because that is what they do when they are happy, and that is what they think will make them happy. After a while the population of rats, or other animals, grows so that they are everywhere. Then some human being or some other large predator becomes angry and kills them all. This is why I don't think happiness will solve the problems we are facing. I don't say that "depression" will necessarily solve it either, it just expresses the inexpressible.

Aemilius wrote:It is like the population of rats, or some other animals, or the humans. They all want to be happy, then they multiply because that is what they do when they are happy, and that is what they think will make them happy. After a while the population of rats, or other animals, grows so that they are everywhere. Then some human being or some other large predator becomes angry and kills them all. This is why I don't think happiness will solve the problems we are facing. I don't say that "depression" will necessarily solve it either, it just expresses the inexpressible.

What *exactly* is happiness? What are its causes?

"Things are not what they appear to be: nor are they otherwise." --Surangama Sutra

Phenomenon, vast as space, dharmata is your base, arising and falling like ocean tide cycles, why do i cling to your illusion of unceasing changlessness?

The usual word for happiness in Tibetan is "bde ba" -- which is a translation of sukha, ease. It does not mean the kind of emotional "happiness" we think of in the West. It just means a situation of less stress and more comfort.

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

gnegirl wrote:Why on earth not? Happiness is not a deluded fantasy where one ignores the harm one does to the planet. We wish for beings happiness *and the causes of happiness*. Cause of happiness <> climate change disaster (perhaps. I'm not omniscient, so i can't say for certain that is true or not true. )

The case is that usually happiness is worldly happiness, that is caused by acquiring new things, new pleasure, more wealth, an excellent job, property, beautifull house, wife, children, success, etc... If you lose them you become sad and depressed. Is this not so ? In the explanations of the Four Boundless States it is said that they primarily mean the spiritual and transcendental happiness. As we know a decrease in carbon dioxide production is very difficult to achieve. As an example we could agree that we cease to use cars and airplanes from tomorrow onwards, and that we move by foot or by bicycle from place to place. This kind of decision would have some effect on the carbon dioxide emissions. To achieve any real decrease in carbon dioxide emissions requires measures that will certainly cause, in the short term, serious depression and other negative emotions. Happiness would be acquired only in the longer development of this planet. Can anybody visualize it happening? That we will do deeds that will decrease the carbon dioxide emissions and the CO2 production on planet Earth ? Or are we going to leave it up to the Nature to do it ?

Actually according to a United Nations report from a few years ago the livestock industry produces greater quantities of greenhouse gas emissions (mosty methane) then transportation. And most of the vegetarians I know of are happy by worldly standards. So there is one simple solution that wouldn't cause people undue suffering or depression: becoming vegetarian. If enough of a critical mass of people chose this simple lifestyle choice to reduce greenhouse gas emissions then the industry would begin to dissolve, along with the livestock populations with their potent gas emissions.

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

Adamantine wrote:Actually according to a United Nations report from a few years ago the livestock industry produces greater quantities of greenhouse gas emissions (mosty methane) then transportation. And most of the vegetarians I know of are happy by worldly standards. So there is one simple solution that wouldn't cause people undue suffering or depression: becoming vegetarian. If enough of a critical mass of people chose this simple lifestyle choice to reduce greenhouse gas emissions then the industry would begin to dissolve, along with the livestock populations with their potent gas emissions.

That may well be so, alhtough I really have some doubts, and would like to see that report with my own eyes. Anyway what I said was a theoretical example. What you now say is what always follows from any real proposition that something be done. Firstly, people make up new "facts" that are not true, but invented to destroy any real action. Secondly, becoming vegetarian is 1000 times more difficult than giving up the use of some of the modern vehicles! People have tried hard to be vegetarian during the 2500 years of buddhist history, many sincere people have failed. Even the Lankavatara Sutra says that it is not realistic to demand vegetarianism from most peoples.I.e. you propose something totally impossble, for what ever reason !!??

I came across this piece and thought it was nice. At a certain age I read Nietzche almost daily for a couple of years, it was kind of nostalgic to see Nietzsche being quoted in this topic of happiness, worth a glance, I think, won't take much of your time. Can't think of much else to say, all the research on brains and the pleasure areas in brains comes to mind. That takes happiness to a physiological level, but it is a very large subject, take a look at it, if you are interested,...

Adamantine wrote:Actually according to a United Nations report from a few years ago the livestock industry produces greater quantities of greenhouse gas emissions (mosty methane) then transportation. And most of the vegetarians I know of are happy by worldly standards. So there is one simple solution that wouldn't cause people undue suffering or depression: becoming vegetarian. If enough of a critical mass of people chose this simple lifestyle choice to reduce greenhouse gas emissions then the industry would begin to dissolve, along with the livestock populations with their potent gas emissions.

That may well be so, alhtough I really have some doubts, and would like to see that report with my own eyes. Anyway what I said was a theoretical example. What you now say is what always follows from any real proposition that something be done. Firstly, people make up new "facts" that are not true, but invented to destroy any real action. Secondly, becoming vegetarian is 1000 times more difficult than giving up the use of some of the modern vehicles! People have tried hard to be vegetarian during the 2500 years of buddhist history, many sincere people have failed. Even the Lankavatara Sutra says that it is not realistic to demand vegetarianism from most peoples.I.e. you propose something totally impossble, for what ever reason !!??

Aemilius, fyi this took me 1 minute to google and find again-- before voicing skepticism of someone's posts you may want to try actually making some effort to fact check before accusing someone of making something up or sloppily reporting false information. Here is the link to an article on the U.N.'s own site. http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?newsID=20772&CR1=warningThis is well known information.

What you say about being vegetarian only reveals that you really know nothing about it. Unless one has an underlying medical condition, which is rare, it is extremely easy to eat a vegetarian diet. I made the transition quickly and without any problems or side effects. Most people's problems with becoming vegetarian are their own habitual addiction to the flavor and texture. This is attachment, something at the very least I would expect members on a Buddhist forum to recognize and try to overcome. Comparatively, it is relatively impossible in the U.S. to give up modern vehicles: most people must commute to their jobs regularly, go shopping many miles away from their homes, etc. The geography of suburbia depends on the automobile. People can certainly reduce their use, carpool more, not drive frivolously, use fuel efficient or electric cars etc. But it is actually much easier to simply not buy meat or order it at restaurants in comparison, and as you can see from the report these gases from livestock cause much greater harm then transportation, on a level of scale.

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

Actually I know something about vegetarianism, having practiced it myself for a couple of decades, and having worked in that branch for some time.Among the european population there are individuals who can adapt to vegetarian diet but they are rare. Most ordinary people find it hard to eat for example whole wheat bread regularly, or natural rice, etc... If you force the majority on a vegetarian diet, riots will follow immediately, that is for sure.In evolutionary terms, mankind has only recently began to use motorized vehicles, but it has been eating meat for a very long time. This means that the habit is much deeper and stronger with regard to eating meat, (than the habit of transportation by modern vehicles). I agree that humans are biologically not real carnivores, so it is possible for them to be vegetarian.If you have been vegetarian for a few years, you don't know yet its long term effects.And please stay vegetarian for the whole of your life, I don't mean to discourage you!

I am not sure how to respond: I gave you a direct link to a U.N. news source relating info from an actual U.N. scientific study in 2006, and you reply with a Wiki page that is simply posting a dataset based on the EDGAR 3.2 estimates for 1995 and prepared by trend analysis. Your information is over 15 years old and was based on guesstimates in the first place!

Last edited by Adamantine on Sat Jul 09, 2011 7:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

"And it[livestock industry] accounts for respectively 37 per cent of all human-induced methane (23 times as warming as CO2)

and "When emissions from land use and land use change are included, the livestock sector accounts for 9 per cent of CO2 deriving from human-related activities, but produces a much larger share of even more harmful greenhouse gases. It generates 65 per cent of human-related nitrous oxide, which has 296 times the Global Warming Potential (GWP) of CO2. Most of this comes from manure."

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

Aemilius wrote:Among the european population there are individuals who can adapt to vegetarian diet but they are rare. Most ordinary people find it hard to eat for example whole wheat bread regularly, or natural rice, etc... If you force the majority on a vegetarian diet, riots will follow immediately, that is for sure.

Your entire post on this was way off, but these three sentences were the weirdest. First of all, I never suggested forcing anyone to be vegetarian. Rather, using proper education --even if that is word of mouth for lack of any institutional support-- to let people know the terrible impact of the livestock industry on the health of the earth and thus all beings, most particular the human habitat. This way, they can make an informed decision. But there is so much disinformation about this topic that it will be a very difficult task.

Your other two statements are a great example of this disinformation. You are wrong, among people from a European descent, it is those that can not tolerate a vegetarian diet that are rare. Most of the vegetarians and vegans I know, which is quite a few, are from European descent and they all do well on a vegetarian diet. And while bread and rice are the most common foods for the majority of the world population, meat eaters and vegetarians alike, they are in no way necessary for a vegetarian diet just as they are unnecessary for a meat eating diet. You simply are not very well informed on this topic.

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha