GRA wrote:October Prime U.S. sales via IEVS: 1,626, down from 1,899 last month despite improved inventory, for 16,882 YTD. That puts it in 3rd spot, behind the Model S and the Bolt, which just overtook it and the Volt. It will be interesting to see which has sales legs.

I don't know about the rest of the world but monthly EV sales in the US are markedly affected by sales discounts. Anything less than a year of sales is just hoopla for fanbois and perhaps as often as not, bad news for the success of the car.

In short, sales figures in the US taken out of context are GIGO

I agree that a single month's sales are often driven mainly by incentives, or else backlogs in a new market, which is what may be happening with the Bolt. We'll see. There's an article at IEVS quoting a Chevy dealer re Bolt/Volt sales, who says that a lot of the ideological customers are moving from their Volt to the Bolt (as you'd expect. However, he also says

“The Volt will rebound. It is still a much more logical choice for people who travel.”

Or it could be that PHEVs were just the gateway drug to longer range BEVs (200+ AER). Once you get a taste of that silky smooth, ultra quiet all electric drive it becomes pretty easy to ditch the dinosaur (ICE)!

Unless Congress repeals the tax credit, I expect the Prime to shortly overtake the Volt and move into third place for the year, as it's only 28 behind and outsold the Volt by 264 in October. Unlike the Volt it has no corporate PEV competition to split its share, and the Mirai's sales will remain relatively small compared to the Bolt. However, if the credit is repealed effective 1/1/2018, we may see a spurt of sales by people trying to take advantage of it for more expensive PEVs until the end of the year, which might boost both of the GM offerings relative to the Prime.

Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'.Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

In December, the Prime crossed the 2,000 sales mark in the U.S. for the first time, with 2,420, and 20,936 for the year, which puts them in 3rd place* overall behind the Model S (27,060 est.) and Bolt (the latter breached the 3k mark for the first time, with 3,227, and 23,297 for the year). I wonder how much of the Bolt's sales may have been due to fear that the tax credit would be gone, and how much was due to regular demand (plus the usual December spike).

*[Update] Tesla just announced sales, and the Model X moved into 3rd place ahead of the Prime, with 21,315 for the year.

Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'.Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA wrote:As predicted last month, the Prime overtook the Volt for third place YTD in U.S. PEV sales, with 1,834 vs. 1,702 for November, and 18,516 vs. 18,412 YTD.

In retrospect, nearly inevitable, from this thread's first post:

2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Sun Aug 30, 2015 9:46 am

Updating a PHEV's exterior design from boring to ugly (I.E. Mitsu Outlander) seems to be a trend lately.

Appearance notwithstanding, if the E range rumors are correct, it looks like ~eight kWh of the battery pack will be available, and the Prius brand could mean significant sales, particularly if Toyota decides it wants to generate its own CARB credits, rather than buying them from Tesla.

You think it will outsell the Volt gen 2?...

More a result of the Volt's fundamental design fault, hindering the efficiency and cost of its PHEV with an over-sized pack.

No great victory for Toyota, though. Once Toyota begins to produce BEVs in bulk, the Prime will quickly be superseded, just as the Volt has been by the Bolt...which outsold the Prime in the USA by ~50% in the last quarter, and finished #2 in the USA for the year, to #4 and #5 for the Prime and Volt respectively, BTW.

. . . Some manufacturers use heat pumps (reverse air-conditioning), which is able to lower the energy usage by a magnitude of two to three.

However, the efficiency of the heat pump decreases in low temperatures, so the heat pump doesn’t improve efficiency (or is unavailable) under 0C or -10C. That’s when you need the heat the most. . . .

Here is how it works:

“The innovation in the Prius Prime system is the incorporation of a cyclone separator (CS) integrated valve into the system. To understand how this works, an understanding of conventional heat pump operation will help. In a normal heat-pump system, the compressor pumps high-pressure refrigerant vapour to the evaporator core inside the passenger compartment. The compressed vapour is hot and transfers the heat to air blowing through the heater system. This cools the vapour and it starts to turn into a liquid, which flows under high pressure out to the control valve where flow is restricted and the high-pressure liquid turns into a low-pressure liquid that starts to boil. It continues to boil as it passes through the condenser in front of the radiator, absorbing heat from the outside air until the refrigerant is a vapour again and it goes back into the compressor to go through the cycle again. A heat pump is the opposite of the flow when air conditioning is requested.

Now, Toyota has added the Cyclone Separator integrated valve into the system, which uses centrifugal force inside the valve to separate the vapour from any liquid and injects the vapour directly back to the compressor, bypassing the condenser. The vapour is already warm, so it can provide more heat to the vehicle interior, while the liquid is directed back to the condenser, where it can absorb more heat from outside the vehicle. There are now two paths for the vapour/liquid to flow and the efficiency of the system is greatly increased.“

Toyota says that efficiency is 63% higher than conventional heating, so the range in cold weather could be up to 21% higher.

Besides reusing warm vapor, the heat pump works in six different modes, depending on the temperature.

It would be nice to know just how low the temp can be and the heat pump still gives an efficiency advantage. Maybe Sagebrush can comment.

Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'.Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

. . . Some manufacturers use heat pumps (reverse air-conditioning), which is able to lower the energy usage by a magnitude of two to three.

However, the efficiency of the heat pump decreases in low temperatures, so the heat pump doesn’t improve efficiency (or is unavailable) under 0C or -10C. That’s when you need the heat the most. . . .

Here is how it works:

“The innovation in the Prius Prime system is the incorporation of a cyclone separator (CS) integrated valve into the system. To understand how this works, an understanding of conventional heat pump operation will help. In a normal heat-pump system, the compressor pumps high-pressure refrigerant vapour to the evaporator core inside the passenger compartment. The compressed vapour is hot and transfers the heat to air blowing through the heater system. This cools the vapour and it starts to turn into a liquid, which flows under high pressure out to the control valve where flow is restricted and the high-pressure liquid turns into a low-pressure liquid that starts to boil. It continues to boil as it passes through the condenser in front of the radiator, absorbing heat from the outside air until the refrigerant is a vapour again and it goes back into the compressor to go through the cycle again. A heat pump is the opposite of the flow when air conditioning is requested.

Now, Toyota has added the Cyclone Separator integrated valve into the system, which uses centrifugal force inside the valve to separate the vapour from any liquid and injects the vapour directly back to the compressor, bypassing the condenser. The vapour is already warm, so it can provide more heat to the vehicle interior, while the liquid is directed back to the condenser, where it can absorb more heat from outside the vehicle. There are now two paths for the vapour/liquid to flow and the efficiency of the system is greatly increased.“

Toyota says that efficiency is 63% higher than conventional heating, so the range in cold weather could be up to 21% higher.

Besides reusing warm vapor, the heat pump works in six different modes, depending on the temperature.

It would be nice to know just how low the temp can be and the heat pump still gives an efficiency advantage. Maybe Sagebrush can comment.

I don't have any personal experience. I do without cabin heating unless and until I have ICE waste heat

IIRC COP exceeds 1.0 from about 12F but only really starts to shine from the 30s F onward.

2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view cameraBought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. CaliforniaCar is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles

^^^ OTOH, sales are up in the U.S., 2,050 for February vs. 1,362 in Feb. 2017 (Feb LEAF sales 895, but still ramping up), and the Prime made up 29% of U.S. Prius sales; regular Prius sales continue to decrease, as HEVs are no longer seen as environmental high-tech. The Prime undoubtedly also benefits from the general opinion that it's better-looking than the regular Prius and also cheaper, especially in California.

Last edited by GRA on Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'.Copper shot, not Silver bullets.