The Amateur Pluto-Hunter

Make no mistake, Pluto is strong stuff. Hard to handle, and while there is much to understand about Pluto and his mechanisms and expositions it is important to remember that the planets do not control us, they cannot ‘make us’ do anything at all, it is only our determination to be the master of our astrology that frees us to be persons of integrity and self-awareness. Pluto is seen as the planet of compulsion for the most part because his energetic frequency is so very base; like Hades, it is well below the surface, in the unconscious murk, and so we have to be very attendant to our behaviour, which is the external symptom of our internal state. Because Pluto is very subtle however, we frequently hide his influence even from ourselves, through rationalisation. In my life, I study Plutonic compulsion on a daily basis and it’s fascinating. I think that perhaps 90% of people I interact with in my life are more or less totally unaware of Pluto’s influence in their lives and in the dramas that they create. Pluto always creates drama, and this is one of the key manifestations of his effects.

So, if there is drama in your life, a big hoo-har about this or that and a great deal of excitement, particularly where there is condemnation, mocking or contest, then chances are, Pluto is pulling the strings somewhere in the situation.

Another important insight lies in the fact that Pluto is an octave of Mars (I hesitate to say ‘higher’ perhaps we should say a more subtle octave), so while he may not manifest in direct, overt expressions of anger, he has the same agenda; he is pushing to get things working how he wants. Passive and covert aggression are therefore invariably signs that Pluto is in the mix. The classic Plutonian power struggle therefore becomes quite easy to spot when you understand all of these factors. Typically, the symptoms of Pluto in the driving seat are very clear once you’re familiar with them:

A grimy, uncomfortable, edgy feeling in the air. If you zone in on it, you’ll realise that it is hitting you in the solar plexus chakra. You may have digestive ‘issues’ as a result. One common (and suitably Plutonic) feature of being unconsciously ‘violated’ by a Plutonian therefore manifests through a need to rush to the loo after the drama is over. You’ll note that you only need to think about certain people to cause an upset feeling in your solar plexus. Those people are Plutonic and toxic and they invade your subtle body with casual disregard. Plutonians are entitled.

Plutonic people dehumanise. This can be as simple as calling the opponent a loser, a thief, a liar, through to something more extreme, like vermin, parasites, scum etc. This is all Plutonic language, and is designed to make the opponent appear less than human. A dehumanised person is much easier to target, isolate and annihilate than an equal. Plutonians thrive on dehumanising tactics, so if they can make you appear to be beneath respect they will. They will intimate that you’re dangerous, mentally ill or deranged, evil, abusive or dishonest. In this way, others will automatically begin to treat you contemptuously which serves the controller’s agenda.

Inappropriate relationships. Healthy relationships should be based on love, trust and mutual respect. If you are involved in, or witness to, a relationship that does not have those features, then chances are, it’s a Plutonic relationship. Relationships without these features usually form out of mutual self-interest, and serve agendas rather than love. Once you see that the relationship isn’t based on love, it’s quite straightforward to deduce which agenda is being served.

Covert evaluation. You will note that when you come into contact with a negative Plutonian, while they might be all smiles, you come away from the exchange feeling somehow judged, evaluated or doubtful about yourself in some way. You might feel angry or resentful without really being able to say why. This is achieved through the Plutonian’s subtle, hard to spot evaluations. For example, if you’re a parent and you value yourself as a competent Mum or Dad, the Plutonian will accost you and wax lyrical about somebody else who is (self-evidently) half the parent you are, while not mentioning your dedication to your children. If you get riled, you’ll just look churlish and self-centred! Neat huh? Welcome to the ‘whatever you do, you lose’ world-rules of Pluto.

The smear campaign. When the power struggle has escalated, the Plutonian always resorts to a smear campaign. This is like a big flashing beacon for Pluto issues. The Plutonian won’t say anything to your face, but they’ll be undermining you for all they’re worth behind your back, with anyone who’ll listen (and most people love a bit of gossip, right?). Usually they’ll take something with a grain of truth and omit or distort facts to make you look guilty. So, for example, if you had an argument with your partner and they were upset and hurt, they’ll tell people that you’re ’emotionally abusive’ in your relationship – after all, they know that your partner was upset on that occasion, so they’re not really lying. Or, if somebody else tells them something about you that isn’t true, even if they know it isn’t true, they’ll repeat it, because they didn’t originate the rumour and they’re not therefore responsible for it. It allows them to tell lies about you, without being responsible for formulating the lie.

Resource control. Plutonians take control of the resources, it’s a kind of scorched earth policy in relationships. This means that all the things that sustain you; material, emotional, whatever, are procured by the Plutonian in order to leave you isolated and vulnerable. If the Plutonian can destroy your support network, then you’re a very easy target, and this is the major reason why they form inappropriate relationships. The Plutonians in your life will suddenly become bosom-buddies with somebody that they have nothing in common with, and never cared a fig for before the power struggle started just to deny you the relationship and to leave you without support. They may keep your possessions too, using the smallest expedience to rationalise their theft into something more ambiguous. This latter is especially relevant in relationship breakdown, where items are ‘jointly’ owned: if there’s a remotely ‘grey’ area about ownership, you’ve lost it!

If you challenge the Plutonian though, they’ll always have a great excuse for their manipulative and underhanded actions. Usually they’re only trying to either ‘stand up for what’s right’, to ‘protect some poor soul who is the victim of you,’ (especially ‘the children’, Plutonians are always doing things to protect the children: by associating their cause with the innocent and vulnerable, their motives become unquestionable: ‘why are you questioning me, do you want the children to be miserable/abused/oppressed etc?) or they’re simply being ‘normal and responsible’ (thus implying that by disagreeing with them you’re being abnormal and irresponsible).

So, using this checklist, it’s easy to spot the Plutonian at work. Of course, they don’t start this way, usually they’ll saunter casually into your life, and all might be well, until you press the right (wrong) button. I see this frequently with Plutonians who are usually very easy-going while you’re behaving in the way that they want. Then you do something that isn’t on their list of tolerated behaviours and suddenly you’re in the power struggle. Once the button’s pressed though, there’s no switching it off again. The compulsive Plutonian will just go on, poisoning everybody and everything in your life until you’re thoroughly sick: often quite literally.

What’s the solution to these Plutonic types? Simple. Run away.

That’s right. Don’t engage, don’t try and get your point of view across, don’t negotiate, don’t reason, don’t capitulate. If you give an inch to the Plutonian, he or she will only deduce that you’re controllable and press their covert agenda all the harder. They are like Plutonium, quite literally; if you are in their proximity for any time at all, they will make you sick and eventually they will kill you. It is, unfortunately, that serious.

Now finally, what if you are evincing these behaviours? I would be surprised if you knew that you were, because subjectivity is a giant obstacle to surmount, but it’s possible (usually after the struggle is done) to understand retrospectively that you have behaved in this sort of way, and been, if you like, the unwitting puppet of your own Pluto. The key is to learn from the experience and to keep a very tight leash on your future conduct. Indeed, try to follow the anti-Pluto checklist:

If your stomach feels uncomfortable in a situation, try to step back and get some perspective. Ask yourself: “what’s really going on here?”

Don’t dehumanise, sneer at, mock or denigrate other human beings. It is okay to complain about bad treatment, therefore it’s okay to call out bad behaviour, but it’s not okay to draw conclusions about a person’s character or motives on the basis of it. Therefore you can say that you’re hurt because you feel that somebody deceived you, but it’s not okay to accuse them of being a habitual liar or a fraudster, most especially not to a third party.

Don’t maintain inappropriate relationships. If somebody you’re associated with makes you feel uncomfortable, drop them. At least minimise your association until you can work out the obstacles to enjoying an authentic and loving connection instead.

Be very careful what you say to people and examine your motives for saying it. If it’s not kind and uplifting to that person, then it’s probably best to keep your mouth shut. This is especially true in the matter of offering unsolicited advice. By all means express your view if somebody asks for it, and it’s fine to state your position with somebody who is trying to blame, accuse or manipulate you, but you should try to avoid giving even well-meaning advice to others if they haven’t expressly asked you for it.

Don’t gossip. I have a Buddhist friend who follows a rule of never talking about anyone unless they are physically present during the conversation. It makes it almost impossible for him to get involved in a smear campaign, even if he was compulsively motivated to do so.

If something isn’t 100% unequivocally yours, don’t take it. Even if you think it should be yours, make your case for it, don’t just assume you have the right. If you follow this simple rule (that is, the Buddhist precept to take nothing that is not freely given), then you cannot go wrong.

Following these rules is not just a moral choice, it is important for the sake of your mental, emotional and physical health that you do so. Remember the tenets of medical astrology: all disease begins in the mind with your thoughts. Your thoughts upset your emotions, and your upset emotions make your body sick, especially in the areas ruled by the corresponding elements. Thus Plutonic people are especially prone to cancers, problems with the elimination system and the reproductive organs. They can also cause these symptoms in others who they target with their control agendas, so this makes it doubly important that you avoid the Plutonians in your life. It’s remarkable the number of clients I’ve had who have suffered from chronic digestive complaints (like for example IBS), who have experienced a complete cure when they finally managed to get rid of the compulsive control-freaks in their lives.

Last, it’s important to remember that in order to live spiritually, you have to live and let live and be respectful of other people’s life choices, even if you don’t agree with them. I find that it helps immensely to follow the Golden Rule: treat others as you would like to be treated yourself, Pluto doesn’t have much room to manoeuvre once you adopt this simple maxim.

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42 thoughts on “The Amateur Pluto-Hunter”

dear dear Jeremy… What about two plutonians ‘fighting’? Kids involved… Live and let live, and be dumped… as a father? Impossible, as you know. Despite the hurt to an ego, there is a responsibility as a father to care and raise them. Exactly: to give the example of spiritual integrity.
Yes, we are friends.

Frans

My ex made it impossible to be an involved father with integrity… And you know what that is like.

So, my question: make it interpersonal; related. The above refers mainly to individual processes; no interpersonal ones… I am still confused…

im in the trows of something similar. children holding me back from having a clean break. in referral to the essay, i have found myself thinking i must protect the children, which is indicative of my mental state and acceptance of staying in the fight using my Pluto in response to being controlled. extremely unhealthy, economically devastating and emotionally destroying and in a deadlock.
im faced with leaving my children and moving back to my country of origin, closing the door on having relations with them. i find no way or avoiding such a catastrophic ending.

I have a strong pluto in my chart and I’ve been privy to relationship drama (but I’m aware and working on it). In most/all of my relationships, issues of power have come up (either I feel like I’m giving up my power or I’m the one in power). However, like I said, I’m aware of these issues and working on them. I’m also into power play in the bedroom, if ya know what I mean…..

Female boss with Mercury and Moon in Scorp. I’ve worked for her for 2 months and already had to file a complaint with HR about bullying and harassment. Stomach hurts every time she stomps down the hall. She’s caused 2 former assistants to quit without notice. I need the job until the first of the year. Trying to maintain perspective, while she sets me up to fail. Only antidote seems to be detachment, not from caring about my work but from caring about what she tries to dump on me. I’ve watched her laugh and joke with someone else’s assistant, then turn in a horribly scary way to look at me and drop the “f” bomb 5 times in one sentence when I ask her a question. Truly unaware of how she should behave with subordinates. I’m no shy violet, I’ve got Moon in Scorp square Uranus and yep, her Merc sits very close to my Moon. It’s like a taser when she turns ugly, and you never see it coming. My most common reaction is to wonder HOW DOES ANYONE LIVE LIKE THIS AND NOT SEE THEMSELVES?

Oh Diane, it happens all the time and it’s scant consolation I know when it’s obvious to you how compulsive and deluded another human being is. It’s not even any consolation to realise that they must be completely miserable to be so egotistical and vile, because you are a compassionate person. Strong boundaries my dear, you can only be true to yourself.

With natal Pluto conjunct my Virgo ascendant from the 12th, sextile my Scorpio conjunctions in the 2nd/3rd and in square to 9th house retrograde Mars, I’ve often experienced the negative Plutonian behaviors you’ve described. As an intuitive, healer and advocate, I continue to be very sensitive to Pluto’s dehumanizing effects – some are subtle, while others are far more obvious. I’ve found there’s often a self-righteous, narcissistic quality attached to these extreme behaviors and you’re right, in terms of personal relationships, the best way to deal with a negative Plutonian is not to engage at all. If given the choice, better to silently wish someone well and be on our way.

Unfortunately, not everyone has the gift of insight nor the luxury of choice – in certain situations, remaining silent only serves to perpetuate the abuse. In those cases, who better than an aware Plutonian to help root out the corruption and advocate on behalf of those who cannot speak for themselves, while always remaining vigilant and mindful of our own Plutonian tendencies – which for me means remembering Christ’s admonishment to first remove the wooden beam from our own eye before attempting to remove the splinter from the eye of another.

Even then, our intention must *only* be to validate and/or right the wrong, rather than to harm or demean the individual or individuals responsible, although this may in fact lead to natural or legal consequences. Speaking the truth in an informed, compassionate and respectful way serves to illuminate, whereas mindless gossip (or bullying) intended to demean and dehumanize only makes us guilty of the same actions we claim to abhor. We Plutonians must walk a narrow road as we learn to use our anger and passions as guides, without making them our masters. There are great challenges, but also the potential for great rewards.

According to Theravada commentary Buddha had Sun, Mercury, Venus, Mars and Saturn in late Taurus and Jupiter in early Gemini and Moon in Scorpio. I wonder where his Pluto, Uranus and Neptune were since these were unknown to astrologers in Buddha’s day. I have noticed angles of ease are always present in natal charts of the several I have done of people who have supposedly attained at least the Stream-enterer stage of Nirvana with mindfulness meditation. At its most noble Pluto represents the destruction of egotism, of the illusion that we have some unchanging Self. Pluto represents either the emptying of all self identity or the obsessive identity with an illusionary ego. Peace, Ken Elder

Thank you all, some very good points raised here.
With regard to remaining silent, i agree that it is desirable, but not always possible, it’s very important to have healthy boundaries, and if not to defend them, at least to be very clear about what is acceptable to you and what is not. I also believe that it’s a potentially slippery slope to speak as an advocate for anyone else, that energy is probably better spent in helping that person to understand and maintain their own boundaries.

Of course, there are always extreme examples where this is “necessary”, but in the majority of life situations, it’s simply too easy to believe that we are taking the correct path when in fact we are simply taking a position that is aligned with the ego’s need, no matter that it is subtle and in the guise of somebody else’s need, it is in fact, in the exhaustively vast majority of cases, simply the first step in getting onto the Drama Triangle.

I have been concerned that this article is a little stark, and there are a few other things to say about it. I will write more on this subject very soon.

The only small concern, or caveat that I would add LB with your last paragraph, is that viewed from the ego’s perspective, it can be used as a justification for getting involved in the drama. That is fine if you have no ego needs because there is no temptation whatever in that case, but the fact is 99.999% of people have ego needs but 99.999% of people are not aware of it. Righting wrongs and becoming an advocate for the defenceless/weak/victim is opening the temptation of being the rescuer in the situation. Rescuers need victims and vice-versa. Once you identify a victim (rather than accepting that the world is perfect as it is), you have started the power struggle. Once you have a power struggle, you have to be of extremely high consciousness to resist the pitfalls.

Of course, it’s important to maintain those boundaries, but we have to be extremely careful that we don’t begin to believe that we have power over anybody or anything other than ourselves, once we do, we are in Pluto’s grip. The road to Hades is paved with good intentions after all.

It seems that our life experiences have been very different. I absolutely understand your point about the egoic mind and struggle with this on a daily basis; I am after all, only human and my awareness is constantly changing. In my own life, there are times when I’ve realized that no amount of “speaking up” will solve the problem, which is really a spiritual one – so I’ve learned to accept the imperfections as being part of a grander plan designed to teach me the value in developing a greater sense of humility by accepting those things beyond my control.

On the other hand,I’ve *frequently* witnessed situations where no one else could or would speak up for those who were absolutely unable to – elderly dementia patients who were dying and unable to communicate their needs (and some who are not dying, but whose experiences were no less dehumanizing), children with serious learning and emotional challenges who were being overlooked or abused, and in a less pressing, but more general sense, a society that accepts the information fed to it by its gurus, political leaders and authority figures without questioning its validity. There are examples all around us, if only we care to see.

And sometimes people just need a trusted third party to help them to deal with something that feels overwhelming or beyond their control – there are times when just being able to openly share our vulnerability with another human being can be all that it takes to help us feel less alone and more like we matter. Plutonian manipulation can be very effective in isolating people by convincing them that they have no outside options and/or that whatever horror they may be experiencing is somehow their own fault and therefore worthy of shame. I’m a great researcher and more importantly I care, whereas not everyone has the wherewithal, talent or inclination – we all come into this life with different gifts which I believe we are given for a purpose. I do understand and differentiate between the dramas we cannot avoid and those we self-create,which is another good point you make. There’s a big difference between advocating and enabling.

One of my favorite songs is Bob Dylan’s “What Good Am I” in which he says, “What good am I if I see and don’t do, If I see and don’t say, if I look right through you, If I turn a deaf ear to the thunderin’ sky, what good am I?” Most spiritual faiths call us to act on behalf of those who cannot. Even in the Buddhist tradition, many Buddhists throughout history have served as social activists.

Perhaps you’re not called in this way, or maybe it’s that we come from such different spiritual perspectives as to render our differences of opinion irresolvable. If that’s the case, then we may have to respectfully agree to disagree. I only wanted to add another perspective for those who might be questioning themselves. Take care, Jeremy.

Well I guess that if you believe that you need to act to protect others, then you do. Unfortunately, it very often goes horribly wrong and all human drama comes out of this precise motive. Which I do understand does not mean that it always results in drama. Just 99.9% of the time. Also, the examples that you cite seem quite extreme to me, and sometimes it is absolutely clear that something needs to be done, but these are, if anything, the exceptions which only prove the rule. I also don’t have a view which says that Pluto is based on a belief system, so there cannot be a difference of belief in this matter, astrology itself is of course not a belief. So, the manifestations of Pluto simply are, and the power struggle, which is the classic manifestation of compulsive Pluto always begins with somebody setting up the triangle of victim, rescuer and persecutor. There are two defences against this. 1) Don’t attempt to control people and situations or 2) become enlightened. If you attempt to effect outcomes and you are not enlightened, then you are quite certain to set up a power struggle.

So, because I am not enlightened, I prefer not to run the risk of getting into a power struggle, because you cannot win a Pluto battle, nobody can, everyone loses and nothing is really changed for the better as a result. That is all this post is saying. If you are saying that you are not enlightened but you are able to avoid the power struggle, then, with the greatest respect, I have to be sceptical.

I think it’s also important to understand that not trying to control other people’s behaviour is not the same thing as being passive or detached. Actually, that’s exactly it, I believe in being unattached, not in being detached. In my experience this is the way. So I don’t mean therefore that I don’t care about social change and improvement, I’m all for it, and I will advocate changes in that way. I just do not believe that I can make anyone else do anything that they do not want to do, and even if I were to succeed, it would be, spiritually, a Pyrrhic victory.

I agree with you once again – there are times when we can only make the effort, with no guarantee regarding specific outcomes, which generally lie beyond our control. Ultimately the only control we have is over the choices we’re allowed to make – all else is an illusion. It’s a humbling but necessary thing to accept. Practicing discernment and mindfulness can help us to choose wisely and avoid the unnecessary (and unproductive) power struggles you’ve described. Most of us will make mistakes along the way, and we’ll learn from those too.

I think there is a difficulty in this context with the ego word. In the Freudian sense of the word, yes, you are correct, but in this case I use the ego in the sense that Ken was referring to it in his comment. Here is it Pluto, not the Sun. For this reason it is of course important to have an identity, that is simply a by product of life, but identity is only that, a side-effect of breathing in and out, and it is projected onto us by others, it is not ours to create or manage. The Plutonian ego conversely tries to project its own identity, and that is not healthy. Boundaries need have no connection to identity, but they are important, because if ours are weak then we allow others to manipulate us (their ego), or if we are entitled then we allow our ego to push others around.

I am cursed with a questioning mind… (Gemini sun.) And I just LOVE paradoxes… If everything is as it should be, it is also completely ‘perfect’ to try to influence others? (= is to manipulate…?) Even if it hurts…? In a way, I even love my ex, because of the suffering she inflicted – in my view… I would never have gone where I have been – voluntarily. Maybe we’re here to manipulate? Plutonic manipulation as a necessity? Yeah, there is a key in mindfullness: I am neither my thoughts, nor my feelings; not even the I I identify with…
ANY judgment we pass, even on our own judgments, makes mindfullness hard? There is just is-ness?
Ambiguity of terms… There are a lot of them. Thanks for your clarification.
(Sorry if I am provocative…)

Well, I take your point, but this is the trickster quality of Mercury of course and no sign likes to play with ideas more than Gemini 🙂 So, it’s not provocative, it’s important for your identity that you explore those ideas.
That said, in my view, everything is perfect of course, because people who are behaving manipulatively are simply learning to progress spiritually. They are just at that stage. If on the other hand, you are behaving in that way because you think you can get away with it, then you are making problems for yourself, because you have to pay your karmic debt. Looking at it objectively, above the personal dimension then sure, it doesn’t matter, one can behave manipulatively and suffer the karmic consequences.
But if you are a person of integrity then you do not manipulate because you realise that you will cause pain to others and accrue negative karma for yourself.

The situation with ex-partners can be very painful, and I understand it perfectly. In my own case, my ex did many things to hurt me in all sorts of ways. She kept everything I owned whether or not it was of any use to her (for example, photos of my father who died in 1997), she poisoned my children so that they would not speak to me, and I am still paying debt for things that she has the use of in her home. I could have retaliated in the same way and made all sorts of problems for her, but as a person of conscience I cannot do that because it would create suffering for her (and more suffering for my children), it would then create negative karma for me. I accept that the situation is simply as it is, therefore I don’t feel like a victim of her, so I have no resentment. That is not to say that I don’t suffer immense grief at the loss of my children and even considerable sadness at no longer having the photos of my Dad, but by trying to punish her, I would be ultimately only punishing myself. Then too I could not do so with self-awareness, because I know that spite is a dead end spiritually.

Looked at in that way, it’s not normal to manipulate once you have raised your consciousness beyond the point of compulsion because you cannot kid yourself that it works. It doesn’t work, it’s impossible to gain by hurting others because your spirit loses. The way things ARE conversely is not the point. That simply is. WE cannot change anything beyond ourselves. A Course in Miracles explains that (from a spiritual perspective) we are responsible for the effort, not the result. So ‘reality is not our concern: our conduct is. Our conduct is all we can control.

Just a random interjection but It’s said that prophet Mohammad was a Gemini…that is why Koran is such a complicated doc and has contradictory passages..sOme are brilliant other vague and regressive ….ah the twin mind

No doubt you know ‘Sophie’s choice’…
The only way through I saw in my situation was by non-violent resistence (yep, inspired by Ghandi, ML King, Mandela and others) – though I confess, it was not without non-violent rage…, that will have hurt too… Yeah, I know: revenge doesn’t lead anywhere…
I just keep sending them postcards…
‘God’ bless!

And Jung said something like: ‘anything you bring up consciously, immediately constellates some kind of opposite in the unconsciousness…’ Not only Gemini…; an eternally doubting yod as well.
My now quite old mother – with Altzheimer – used to say: ‘ keep on breathing’ THE CLUE!

Thanks for this excellent essay Jeremy. I experienced a “Mars square Pluto in synastry”relationship years ago; he also had transit Pluto crossing his 7th house, and of course my natal Pluto has to be in my 7th.

Those of us who have experienced this kind of relationship understand how hard it can be to describe the true nature and impact of the experience.

I appreciate your ability to get this down on paper for others to share; it’s one of the best explanations of Pluto I’ve ever read.

… just wanted to say this is by far one of the best interpretation of Pluto dynamics … thank you Chirotic for writting it … only wish i knew this a few years earlier … i am the one that did not heed the advice of RUNNING AWAY from Plutonians 😦 … well eventually i had to … health reasons!!!

I have been a nasty biting Pluto rising my whole life. Lately it has gotten so bad that I had to look deep within myself to find the reasons…which are really elusive. I just don’t know what to do but keep quiet.

hmmmmmmmmmm
I am guilty of all of those behaviors at some point in my life. Sometimes the dehumanizing language flows out so easily and eloquently i’m like “wtf where did that come from?”

OMG what do I do? I’ve noticed sometimes the only thing i can do is back away from people. Sometimes the way I talk, is so horrible. I’m getting better…but it’s really hard. I spew hatred about someone….especially a romantic partner…to my friends….and then I’m left to deal with their hatred towards my partner…which was all caused by me. And how do you recant on something like that? it’s best just not to do it at all!

I have Pluto rising, Venus sextile Pluto

What I just wrote here is the tip of the iceberg. Sometimes I am really amazingly nice, true to my heart. other times….i just don’t listen to my stomach quivering in a situation and i bulldoze right in.

This was really an eye-opener, since I´have been thinking of myself only as a target of plutonian powers in my relationships. While I read this I started thinking of my own behaviour and came to realize that I myself have been doing negative plutonian stuff, quite a lot actually.. This could have to do with my natal Venus-Pluto opposition that I have a hard time becoming friends with..

Anyway, I’ll try to keep the advice in mind and not go to the place of ugly behaviour and mind-games. Thank you chirotic for this post, and thank you universe for letting me find this blog at a time when it really is needed!

Thank you for the wonderful post. I can totally identify with it all. Pluto is in my third house crossing my IC in Capricorn. I have limited all contact with anyone who refuses to let be who I have the potential to be. A long hard journey but worth every moment. Nov 11/64.

I have moon in leo square pluto in scorpio in the 8th house. I’ve done all of the horrible things you’ve mentioned in the above article. I had a very abusive childhood and had to deal with a lot on my own with no support system. I still feel very bad about myself and as if I am evil in some way even though I have worked on myself a lot since.
I abused my brother and dehumanised him and my mum as well even though at the time all I was doing was acting out the massive hurt and pain that was like HUGEEEEEEEE and all-consuming. I went to the darkest most desperate parts of my psyche before I was like 2 years old and had on-going huge moments of trauma as well as low level trauma up until recently since I’ve found an amazing healer to work with.
Reading your article it seems you might not have much empathy for these plutonian types. I see your point of view though, as when I think of my dad who was very plutonian all I can think of is digust and hate and sickness. And I definately know the stomach feeling of being around plutionian people. I am still drawn to plutonians as it feels familiar to me even though I have constant digestive issues/constipation as a result of it- it stems from fear I think and absorbing the energies into my stomach.
But knowing that I had the same tendencies and it stemmed from extreme trauma makes me wish there was a little sympathy for that part of it…

i read this post last year – i have been a pluto conj mars transit – i know i am writing this late and u may not see it – yesterday i got an email which made me feel sick – literally – is this a pluto kind of thing ? that it has that sort of effect on you ? ironic given it was a full moon in cancer .

Writing in this post is almost cathartic and I am happy I found this. Its astonishing how every single plutonian trait described here can be attributed to my Scorp ex. To this day, I am unable to come to terms with the trauma. I was projected as mentally unstable and even”suicidal” among his friends. Everything I did was about his ‘approval’. Towards the end of our relationship I had completely lost myself. Its amazing how he somehow seemed to ‘know’ all my movements but I never came to know his whereabouts. I will never forget the trauma of breaking apart from such an individual. I could literally touch the ‘fear’ engulfing me, with his threatening and abusive emails. It was all about his loss of so called power on me. adding to my troubles, I had lost my job and was putting up in the living room of a friend. To this day, he has this sense of entitlement that he was able to make a “wrongful” person like me suffer like that. I also realised that the best way was to get away as fast as your legs could carry. There cannot be any negotiations, any compromises in such cases. I no longer feel victimized , but there are always questions in my mind about this person’s behavior at that time and just how can someone be that cruel to his loved one and still live with it?

I’ve been feeling really disgusted with myself lately, and my negative attitudes about EVERYTHING. I think I’m Plutoxic! Thank you sooooo much for this awesome checklist. I just had a Saturn return, and I’m trying to figure out what it is that needs changing to be a better person. I’ve been a compulsive gossiper my whole life, and all the trash I talk is always behind someone’s back, I can’t seem to tell them what I think to their face. I tell myself it’s because I don’t want to hurt their feelings. And I tell myself it’s okay because it’s the “truth”, and I’m just trying to confirm my opinion against others’, but I’m slowly learning that people that do engage in this behavior with me are either just as unhealthy, or I’m dragging them down to my level. YUCK!! Sun in the 8th, Mars conjunct Jupiter in Scorpio, Pluto conjunct Saturn conjunct Midheaven.

I typed in a post discussing a highly plutonian relationship from last year, but as I was about to hit “Post Comment” I realised that if I applied the advice of the post, there really wasn’t a reason for me to post my comment at all!

I should at least say, sometimes a plutonian relationship can be quite benificial due to the illuminating and insightful insults that will be thrown your way :). The plutonians can peer really deep into your core and tell you what’s wrong with it!

Thank you Chirotic, your post is some kind of relief to me because it shows me I have really evolved in a good way. My Virgo Pluto is in the first house, square my Sagittarius Sun in the fourth, which is conjunct Venus. I feel I am a real Plutonian but I’ve always strived not to hurt other people, at least in a conscious way. I still feel I have to control myself sometimes but I have managed to get tolerant and sympathetic. Nowadays I tend to avoid being judgmental or negative (at least towards other people!) and I think Pluto is not so scary when you work with rather than against it… Some years ago I had Pluto transits square my ASC then conjunct Venus then conjunct Sun and that really went without major trouble. Of course I could define my love life as a post-nuclear war battlefield, not so much for the battle aspect than for the deadly radioactive field. The price to pay is very high for me but I am quite sure that, with time, bad Plutonic tendencies can be tamed and even healed.

I’ve been reading your articles about Pluto today, Jeremy. Thank you for sharing your insights and for being so clear and direct about the worst aspects of Pluto. They’re real and the things you describe do happen, to be sure.

And yet… Pluto is subtle, complex and multi-facetted. Its darkest, most manipulative and deadly impulses are not inevitable for everyone, though their potential can’t be discounted or dismissed. I say this as one who has Sun conjunct Pluto (separated by only 58′) in Virgo, conjunct the MC and conjunct Mercury in Leo; Scorpio rising; Mars is in my 6th house, opposite the Asc; and a peregrine Moon in Capricorn in my second house.

My own mother was a Virgo, too, also with Scorpio rising. In addition to being a malignant narcissist, she was also a supremely abusive parent. I grew up terrified of her dark rage and violence. My father died when I was a child and my mother projected her fury over the loss of her spouse onto me. I believe that I survived my childhood because I was so determined not to be like my mother. Somehow, I recognized that I needed to find constructive or at least non-damaging ways to deal with my own anger. One fortunate characteristic of a Capricorn moon is that one tends to feel alone and that one needs to work things through independently. Capricorn and Virgo cooperate very well on such projects, of course. Having my sun conjunct the MC encourages an outward focus, too. It was a difficult path, to be sure, and I struggled with varying levels of depression for years. But Pluto is not just about destruction; it’s also about regeneration.

My now-ex husband is an Aries with Scorpio rising, Pluto in Virgo in his 10th house opposite Mars in Aquarius in his 4th house. His Gemini moon is in his 8th house and sextile to Pluto. If I’d known anything about astrology when we got together, perhaps I wouldn’t have married him–it’s hard to know. Maybe some of his energy was familiar to me? He treated me better than my family had, I thought. But his way of putting me down, while never violent or degenerating into name-calling, was very subtle, a slow erosion that gradually undermined my self-confidence, self-esteem, my career and my sense of hope for the future. It took a long time, but I eventually reached the point where I recognized that I was almost completely isolated from everyone I knew, having little contact with the world outside our family, and that he controlled almost every aspect of my life in very unhealthy ways. I finally left him, just as, unbeknownst to me, transiting Pluto came conjunct with my natal ASC. Our separation and divorce have been worse than the marriage: my ex’s Pluto cannot tolerate the sense of damage to his public image from the assumed criticism that’s implied in separation. He spent almost a decade doing everything he could think to damage me personally. Two of our children lived with me, but he convinced the third to completely sever her relationship with me. He had no difficulty in persuading my own (natal) family to support him in the divorce. He had no difficulty, either, in lying to the family court judges about his income, our assets and financial position. He had always insisted on managing our money. I thought we didn’t have anything very much and, in fact, he kept the bank account nearly empty and the credit cards maxxed out while he increased his income substantially and horded the majority of it away in an account I didn’t even find out about until two years after we were divorced. Lying in court was not a problem for him and he readily admitted having done so, though never in front of witnesses. His stated objective in everything was to drive me into such a state of despair that I would either have a complete breakdown or, better, end my life, having lost everything including all of the children. He said that he enjoyed setting me up to be the perfect victim and that he could get away with everything he did because no one knew about it. Having no friends or family, I also had no witnesses or support in court. He never brought anyone other than his lawyer with him and so he could get away not only with telling bold lies in the court but also outside it, where he usually expressed considerable concern for me, sorrow that I was having such a hard time, telling others that he had tried to help me get on my feet, given me money and other forms of support, etc., to no avail when in fact he fought viciously to ensure that he could get out of paying child support for our children. The fury of Pluto and Mars were unrelenting until, at long last, I was able to move 2800 miles away with my youngest child.

I have been determined not to mirror the Plutonic/Scorpionic rage, but to delve deeply to find the wounds that are its source. Chiron opposes my Pluto/Sun/MC/Mercury stellium and I believe that Chiron helps me to discover compassion for others as well as for myself. Jupiter and Neptune, both in my 12th house, have helped me to develop my spiritual understanding and practices so that I can channel the fear and frustration I have felt, learning to let go of them as identifying personal characteristics.

I’m doing well but I have no illusions that this is anything but a life-long process. I continue to call on Pluto’s healing and regenerating qualities because only those provide a constructive way forward.

I wish I had understood even a little bit about astrology a long time ago, but I’m not sure I would have been able to accept it. Chiron is an astrologer, though, and has helped me enormously. Pluto takes us to hell, it’s true. His moon, Charon, rows us across the deep, dark river. But Pluto is also the way out, again. Only the dead can stay in Hades.

I’ve had Pluto squaring my natal Sun for a couple of years & it will end only in 2013. Almost everything you wrote about happened to me, I thought a lot of it was related to the square but only after reading this realized they weren’t just ‘accidentally’ there causing hell for me during the square – it somehow attracted a horde of Plutonians I didn’t know or had problems with before. They moved in next to me, another one became a close friend. I ended up being abused, bullied and physically attacked by the neighboring Plutonians and suffered a horrible smear campain, false accusations, taking away of everything dear to me, etc from the Plutonian ‘friends’. I tried to fight the neighbors and got badly beaten up, with the friends I just distanced myself, cut all ties & weathered the storm they caused, strongly annoying them due to my avoidance of direct conflict, I learned my lesson and can’t get sucked in anymore. There were even joint possessions involved, all of which I lost and made peace with, I only kept one item which was sort of a gift to me & I needed it and the person who smeared me, stole my ‘friends, supporters and everything else’ couldn’t even let go of that one item & complained to the person who gave it to me. She didn’t get it.
Things get much worse every time Pluto activates the square only now I expect it. One woman told me from her experience that once this hard transit finishes, the ‘creeps’ will just disappear from my life. I’m surviving on that hope.

I’ve developed bad nervous conditions, become seriously ill from stress, haven’t slept peacefully in over a year, look over my shoulder everywhere. A complete breakdown of my life.

"Jeremy Neal's masterwork about Orcus is a major contribution to the advancement of astrology. Facing the real significance of these newly-discovered trans-Neptunian bodies is not work for the faint-hearted. This is a courageous book that carries the reader into the heart of darkness. Fortunately, it also carries us out again! Neal faces painful subjects unflinchingly, and yet never loses sight of the higher ground. I enthusiastically welcome his voice to the conversation."