I propose this: Give the raids back to the raiders

I keep seeing posts about less people doing raids, that that part is becoming smaller within wow, that we have 3 versions of raids for those who want to do it easy-mode, etc etc etc. Lots of opinions.

This is what I propose:

No more heroic raids, one raid fits all but keep a learning to raid for those that just want to experience and learn, they can decide if they want to get into the true spirit of raiding or not.

Give the raid back to the raiders. The others can have their 5 mans - quests - farming - pets - pvp and what not.

Give raids back to the raiders. Get rid of heroic raids. The model that worked best raid wise was Burning Crusade model. You had no gimmicky heroic versions, they just got progressively difficult. Not just the same boss again with a new ability added.

Give back raiding to the raiders, there is tons of other stuff for casuals and non-raiders to do. Raiding is a culture of its own, it is just about lost. I would like to see it saved.

Please read this with an open mind geared to discussion. It really is time raiding went back to those that love it and all the goals/difficulty that should be associated with it and all that it should entail.

======================

EDIT 1* I am adding this to bottom, my definition of raiding and what that should entail.

Raiding should be (and used to be this at its best):

1. BC Model

2. 3-4 raids...increased difficulty, need to finish one to be able to get to the next

3. No heroic version, nothing re-hashed, can't stress this enough

4. the further you go the harder it should get, (last raid in tier) You can't gdo the last half of a dungeon...too bad...others will...you get better or you do not see it.

5. I heard this a million times "I would love to raid but can't"..not our fault. Do not ruin the essence of it. if you can't do it..you'll live but please don't drag others down with you.

6. There are those wanting challenge, logical challenges, there is those wanting shit handed to them. Raiding should be about the work, strategy, time invested, working together for a common goal - comraderie and brotherhood. The further you want to go the more you need. If you can't do that, do not raid.

(one other thing..LFR is not raiding, it is not. Quit saying it is. It is a tool to see content easily and more to the point, get loot easily. It has none of the characteristics of the above. Give people gear straight up, the same as raiders if you want..just hand it out...don't care...but leave the raiding to actual raiders)

Edit 2 **

Well this thread exploded.

To add a few things to my original post. I realize people like LFR, as some do not have the time to raid hardcore. I think most half-assed serious guilds/raiders do 2-3 nights a week. Not that bad. Many are not hard-core but are 'raiders". 2-3 evenings a week is not much but that is probably the norm now-a-days. This is not a fact, just going on by what I myself see and have noticed.

A point I would like to be made clear regarding Looking for Raid. One, it is not actually raiding. Typically it's group that is formed into a cesspool, the cesspool then zergs a boss. There is no team work, people are usually ignorant to others , sometimes in the most vile ways. It is not about seeing 'content", people can't even say that any more with a straight look on their face. LFR is so players can get loot the fastest, easiest way possible and in turn, have fooled themselves into believing LFR is 'raiding". You will see the worst of people in LFR, you will never ever see the best out of people. LFR is the opposite of raiding. So to be blunt, if you do LFR and have been arguing in this thread about that being your 'raid"...stop it. It is not raiding. Let's stop calling it raiding. Think of a new name. Maybe "looking-to get-loot-easy-while-being-a-dick -to-others". Too long maybe.

Going back to my original post, I did say BC was the pinnacle of raiding, I still stand by that. It was great, I loved it, others loved it (even casuals). In today's market, there can be made room for casuals at the start. They then will learn if raiding is for them and continue on..or not. Either you want to raid for real or you want to pretend. If you want to raid and think LFR is raiding, you are only fooling yourself.

Again, raiding is:

A group of people getting together to do something bigger than usual, it feels epic and rewarding.

Comraderie / brotherhood

Logistics / planning

Time invested

Community

Competition, with others or versus your own team. Investment of time and energy for epic rewards.

major teamwork

relationships

That is raiding.

Along with this post and my original post, hopefully ive been clear. Some will not like this at all, maybe because it affects their loot. For those people, I can only repeat, maybe raiding wasn't for you and maybe you aren't good for the raiding community in the long run.

This is nothing to do with special snowflakes, elitism or anything in that vein. This is my opinion, I am not God, but ive paid my money a long time now and my opinion is as valid as any of yours.

EDIT #3

After starting and reading this whole thread, I came to a decision. This is not the game for me any more, I do not like the direction and I do not like the majority of the subscriber base any more. The vibe has soured. I have cancelled all my accounts, I have been here since day 1. Don't let the door hit me on the ass on the way out right? Good riddance right? I got to the point where I am not paying to feed entitlement and to fuel a direction that pisses on scruples.

You raider elitists need to stop being so ignorant. The game isnt just for you, you arent paying for it yourself. Im sick and tired of people saying shit like casuals shouldnt raid this or should just stick to this etc. We ALL pay for the game to experience ALL the content however the hell we want to experience it. God I just dont understand the mentality of you elitists.

I don't even see normal mode as content, its just something you do week one of the tier and then never go back. As far as I'm concerned heroic mode is the only 'real raiding' and everyone else gets to play around in the joke content.

You raider elitists need to stop being so ignorant. The game isnt just for you, you arent paying for it yourself. Im sick and tired of people saying shit like casuals shouldnt raid this or should just stick to this etc. We ALL pay for the game to experience ALL the content however the hell we want to experience it. God I just dont understand the mentality of you elitists.

i dont think that neither of the two posts above you are elite raiders, they are just 20:00 to 24:00 raiders who wants the titel of raider back

Respect the game as you should the player. If you don't play the game anymore, plz don't talk like you still are pretty plz

I keep seeing posts about less people doing raids, that that part is becoming smaller within wow, that we have 3 versions of raids for those who want to do it easy-mode, etc etc etc. Lots of opinions.

This is what I propose:

No more heroic raids, one raid fits all but keep a learning to raid for those that just want to experience and learn, they can decide if they want to get into the true spirit of raiding or not.

Give the raid back to the raiders. The others can have their 5 mans - quests - farming - pets - pvp and what not.

Give raids back to the raiders. Get rid of heroic raids. The model that worked best raid wise was Burning Crusade model. You had no gimmicky heroic versions, they just got progressively difficult. Not just the same boss again with a new ability added.

Give back raiding to the raiders, there is tons of other stuff for casuals and non-raiders to do. Raiding is a culture of its own, it is just about lost. I would like to see it saved.

Please read this with an open mind geared to discussion. It really is time raiding went back to those that love it and all the goals/difficulty that should be associated with it and all that it should entail.

If you are not doing heroics by week two then you are not a serious raider anyway, so you are only going to see the normal bosses once. Then it's all heroic bosses for you and your group.

Give dailies and leveling content back to the casuals. Raiders have enough fun already! I don't care how they get to 90... Maybe give them 20 million boars to farm! And then they get to raid with whatever equip they had left lying around. "Welfare epics" from reputation grinds are casual and 5-mans are for them too, remember?

I don't even see normal mode as content, its just something you do week one of the tier and then never go back. As far as I'm concerned heroic mode is the only 'real raiding' and everyone else gets to play around in the joke content.

Everyone wins, well except those who only derive joy from epeening.

Not looking to start a argument here, but isn't your whole opening statement a massive epeen stroke? Or am I just reading too much into it. >.>

At times, the frequent redundancy and stupidity of this forum turns me into an argumentative ass.

I don't even see normal mode as content, its just something you do week one of the tier and then never go back. As far as I'm concerned heroic mode is the only 'real raiding' and everyone else gets to play around in the joke content.

Everyone wins, well except those who only derive joy from epeening.

What he said. Heroics are your raiding content OP. Unless you are clearing heroic modes within weeks of them opening I don't understand what you are complaining about. We are a fairly casual guild with only 9 hours a week but we still progressed through all Cata content. Being able to clear through the normal modes left at the end of the week after working on a new heroic boss is a nice way to wrap up the raid week and something I really enjoy.

People play this game to have fun and if having 3 difficulties help a wider range of players enjoy the game that's perfectly fine but like Volitar said if you really are a hardcore raider you shouldn't even think of normal modes as content since it should be cleared the first week and most likely the first day.

What's wrong with several raid difficulties?
beginners and people who can't raid after a schecule can do LFR.
Mediocre players can do normal mode.
good players can do heroic mode.
How is it hurting for example the good players that beginners are doing LFR?

You raider elitists need to stop being so ignorant. The game isnt just for you, you arent paying for it yourself. Im sick and tired of people saying shit like casuals shouldnt raid this or should just stick to this etc. We ALL pay for the game to experience ALL the content however the hell we want to experience it. God I just dont understand the mentality of you elitists.

i dont think that neither of the two posts above you are elite raiders, they are just 20:00 to 24:00 raiders who wants the titel of raider back its nice to feel like you are in a special group when you are a raider

Respect the game as you should the player. If you don't play the game anymore, plz don't talk like you still are pretty plz

What's wrong with several raid difficulties?
beginners and people who can't raid after a schecule can do LFR.
Mediocre players can do normal mode.
good players can do heroic mode.
How is it hurting for example the good players that beginners are doing LFR?

1 word...... raiding exhaustion its not about the lvl of difficulti... its about the gear and if you want to do mediocre og hc raiding, then you need to go through the lower tier before you can do that, and then raiding just becomes a boring duty

---------- Post added 2012-09-07 at 04:15 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Tomana

Yeah right, let's sink huge amounts of money developping stuff that only a minority can see. That will provide a huge ROI.

things were like that for about 2 years with vanilla and TBC, and that went pretty well. think at the end of TBC, they had more subs then ever

Respect the game as you should the player. If you don't play the game anymore, plz don't talk like you still are pretty plz

That's a dumb idea. Major game progression and lore progression happens in the raids. It's unfair to not let people see that. I played WC3 many times. If I didn't get to see the full end of Arthas, I would have been pretty pissed. Even with their whole cinematic solution, it's that epic feeling of being in that raid and being a part of the final fight.

I was quite angry not being able to see Illidans end, even though it was a terrible and needless one. Not many people got to.

Stop thinking that heroic is just normal with more mechanics and HP but that normal is a real raid with fewer mechanics and less HP. No actual raider does normal. It's there for casuals. LFR is not even really for casuals as such it is for teaching people the very basics of raiding so they can become more serious. There is absolutely no way for them without it. It's also there to get the odd bit of loot for an alt or getting set bonuses at the release of a new tier or practicing a new spec/gear choice in an actual raiding environment (it's better than a dummy).

So no. There really are raids. They really are fun. I'd be quite happy to pay a few bucks per tier or some other such if the raid tier was really well done. If it was a DLC model, you could just release the DLC to regular subscribers after the new one is out and give it LFR as well. That'd work and Blizzard would make more money.

I propose this: Stop letting what other people do in this game bother you.

My guild will be pushing for server firsts and heroic kills and the fact that someone has to wait 2 weeks to see a easier version of the content doesn't affect me at all. It also doesn't affect you at all. I never really understood this idea that if someone else does something easier, weeks after I have finished it, It diminishes what I have done. It doesn't.

You raider elitists need to stop being so ignorant. The game isnt just for you, you arent paying for it yourself. Im sick and tired of people saying shit like casuals shouldnt raid this or should just stick to this etc. We ALL pay for the game to experience ALL the content however the hell we want to experience it. God I just dont understand the mentality of you elitists.

No. You are wrong naimc. Raiding just isn't for you. I've paid for 7 long years. My opinion is just as viable, no less no more, 7 years of paying Blizzard means I should be able to have and share that opinion. People who have played this game a few months surely give theirs, as well they should.

It is not elitist. It is called raiding. Some do not get it, do not get the concept of it. It should be given back to raiders. hell, give you guys (casuals) the same gear in 5 mans for all I care..but give back the raids to people who really care for that whole vibe. I am not the only one. We do not all have to be the same...we need that option back. If you want to raid, then goddam well raid man, not raid-lite...not prancing through content....I mean raid.

So, here's the thing about "Giving the Raids back to the raiders". Should that happen, the "raiders" (as stated by Blizzard) would get even less content than they do now, because they are no longer going to devote more resources to something that 5% of their playerbase is going to experience. Second, the BC model was only better to Raiders because they didn't have to deal with all the downsides that it came with, they were already raiders. So, what you're suggesting is that no one that doesn't already raid should be allowed to without having to jump through so many pointless hoops that isn't worth it anyway. Good call. Third, using the "there's plenty of stuff for casuals to do" argument is rather short sighted and inconsiderate (big surprise, coming from a raider), since casuals get tired of that content same as raiders get tired of their raids. Fourth, raiding hasn't been taken away from anyone, including the raiders. You still have raids, they still have hard modes, and generally there are still just as many bosses to kill in them as there was in BC. So, you're not even making a logically compelling point, you're literally just whining about the fact that you're not as special as you used to be. Bottom Line: You haven't lost anything, nothing has been taken away from you except for the fact that you can no longer stand around and pretend that everyone cares about how awesome your gear is. That's it. So, if you're going to say something like "Please read this with an open mind geared toward discussion" while actually meaning "Please read this with a mind geared toward what I'm saying because I in fact don't even have an open mind myself", at least be honest about it and not try to hide the fact that your argument is inherently a selfish request.