What happened to Fel?

I used to play in Trammel and Fel. I had houses on both facets. I have also been around long enough to remember when there was only one facet.

When Trammel came into being the whole "care bear" ages old arguements surfaced. I still played in Fel and Trammel and respected both facets for what they were.

There was a time in Fel, even after the facet split, where honor was still alive. Don't get me wrong, I saw griefers "and no-holds barred" PKs, but there was also a sence of competition and respect.

Over the past week on my server, I have yet to meet one red person that could say I respected. The language is amazing. "You got owned n**ger*". Nice. It's like everyone lost their civility. I don't mind dieing or getting PKed. But what happened to people? What happened to Fel?

I have been gone 5 years and I return to this? How sad if this is what Fel has become.

You can spin the Fel/Tram split any way you want. It was caused by the type of red that I see now in Felucca. Had people had a little more civility and respect, well..... who knows. Really sad.

I was hoping to make another character. Kind of see what templates are out there. Maybe even a red or factions, I still might. But I just see the scum of earth out here right now. It just makes me wonder about this game. It makes me wonder what reds nowadays want out of the game.

I just think the people who cried to get Trammel have just had their skin get even thinner...la

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I don't want to get into the old arguement that will never have a solution Rico. I was opposed to Trammel when it was introduced. But I remember why it had to happen. OSI was losing it's subscribers en masse. It was becoming so you could not leave a town without a fight and a serious loss of gear. I knew PKs back then that fought with integrity and honor. They lived for the battle. And then I knew PKs who just wanted to grief. They wanted people to get upset. They became the majority among the PvPers and forced the designers to do something. That and available housing....

Stratics VeteranStratics Legend

You can spin the Fel/Tram split any way you want. It was caused by the type of red that I see now in Felucca. Had people had a little more civility and respect, well..... who knows. Really sad.

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You find those types in both facets and I really am hard-pressed to believe that's the actual reason.

You are right that there is no respect tho and its in large part because there is no real meaning behind player interactions anymore.

On one hand, the vocal pro-trammies have spun the issues that had faced them and convinced the Dev teams of the past that having the freedom to interact with one-another was a bad thing and would prefer it if they altered the game to make it so that people didn't need to interact with one-another unless both party consented to the interaction.

On the other hand, the vocal pro-felly bellys never really understood the playstyles outside of their own and wound up not making any good arguments that would have otherwised preserved the unique nature of this game (which is what set it apart from every other game out there.)

So the developers divided the community, in an extremely poorly thought-out manner I might add and this game has suffered ever since. You are now left with the remnants of what was once a well-functioning, unique and interesting game... this is what you must deal with.

The vocal pro-trammies have painted the Felly Bellys into a corner... they are stuck in 2/9ths of the entire landmass (unless they play Siege) and honestly, are quite sick of being left out of everything because of the few vocal minority that had ostracized them for their playstyle.

Trust me, the vocal pro-trammies have ostracized damn near every playstyle in UO. Role-players must Role-play on their terms and ideals since the game can no longer promote Orcs bashing oomies, no more Pirates plundering coasts, no more knights battling evil, even thieves have been smacked down to the point where the only thing they can really do is steal from a crate in town.

The vocal pro-trammies have got the developers to restrict this game so much so that there are only 2 playstyles left. The pro-trammel where this is their game and they don't need others to play in it and the pro-felucca's where this is their game and they don't need others to play in it.

If you go to Siege you will find remnants of what you're looking for (even though the Devs inaction to bring the shard up to current times has been choking its population) it is still there. There are good reds and bad reds. Good blues and bad blues. Role-players who will role-play with those who are of their type or not and even thieves. You will find a tiny piece of everything there... not surprisingly enough, its in part because it is the last place in UO where the original philosophies and ideals of this game, still exist.

It didn't need to happen. To be honest, you want to know what happend? People got tired of playing the "good guy". Do you rember guilds that would go out and hunt reds? Or those that would escort other players from town to the moon gates? I do. Those are the people who have left the game or figured they would have more fun killing blue players...la

People got tired of being FORCED to play the "good guy" because so many others learned it was easier to go red and take instead of earn. You see a nice blade I have, you kill me for it. The problem became that everyone was killing everyone. You could not go and fight monsters anywhere.

I remember the groups of blues. I was in a guild where if someone messed with us, they had better bail out. Because 5 mins later my guild was there.

There's plenty of nice people in Tram just waiting to scream at you to get off their kill or they'll page on you.

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I didn't page when the guy dropped the N bomb. Honestly I think in my whole UO career I have paged maybe 4 times on people. That is why I left the other games I did. They would page for ANYTHING at all.

There's plenty of nice people in Tram just waiting to scream at you to get off their kill or they'll page on you.

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I didn't page when the guy dropped the N bomb. Honestly I think in my whole UO career I have paged maybe 4 times on people. That is why I left the other games I did. They would page for ANYTHING at all.

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What I was referring to, and I think its something you weren't around for, was that during the Magincia Event, there were Light and Void Demons that would blow up buildings and create "rubble", which people could collect and sell at insane prices, and if other people would come and try to kill the demons before they could destroy anything, they would call you all kind of names and threaten to page on you for ruining their playstyle.

The bottom line is that there are vile d-bags on every facet, given the right conditions.(and sometimes just for spite)

What I was referring to, and I think its something you weren't around for, was that during the Magincia Event, there were Light and Void Demons that would blow up buildings and create "rubble", which people could collect and sell at insane prices, and if other people would come and try to kill the demons before they could destroy anything, they would call you all kind of names and threaten to page on you for ruining their playstyle.

The bottom line is that there are vile d-bags on every facet, given the right conditions.(and sometimes just for spite)

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Fair enough. I am just saying in a weeks time, I have ran across maybe 15 or so reds and every one of them was pretty lame.

I've pretty much had that experience too. And that's why I stay out of Fel except for mining.[/QUOTE]

LOL, learn to fight and go to fel to kill them...sheesh...la[/QUOTE]

Yeah, easily done. But I come to UO to get away from the attitudes and baggage, not dive deeper in it. Killing mobs is relaxing and enjoyable for me. Having to watch my back all the time isn't. I'm not trying to start a Tram/Fel war by any means, just pointing out that idiots are everywhere. Present company excluded, of course.

Stratics VeteranStratics Legend

That's typical Felucca behavior. And the only reason why I don't play on Felucca anymore. The people there are just annoying primates.

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You know, its funny. I have that same thought for alot of trammel players. Just a few weeks ago, I got a wild hair to go PvM and fight some monsters. I was alone in a spawn area killing said monsters with no problem. Along comes a tamer and Im a cool dude so I offer to take turns instead of just keep on attacking the spawn and being rude. The guy laughed, called me a few names, and then proceeded to take over the spawn and call me names when I tried to attack the monster...His super dragon did more damage than I did...Honestly I think trammel has more rude players than Fel does. The reason why, if your a **** in fel you can get killed. If your a **** in tram, you cant do snot about it.

during the Magincia Event, there were Light and Void Demons that would blow up buildings and create "rubble", which people could collect and sell at insane prices, and if other people would come and try to kill the demons before they could destroy anything, they would call you all kind of names and threaten to page on you for ruining their playstyle.

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QFT

I got called names, insulted, told to F off, etc more times during that one month magencia event than in the last year of PvPing.

The "honorable" reds are still around, I was out working my taming skills in the vicinity of an IDOC, I see a well equipped red fellow from one of the major PK guilds hovering around. I wave and we start to chat a bit speculating on what might be in the IDOC. No threats, no trash-talk just a pleasant conversation. I wasn't planning on camping the IDOC since I still have waaay too much junk so I wished him luck, took my leave and continued on unmolested.

Felucca on Sonoma is the same now as it was back five years ago. The difference is in where the trash talking PvPers hang out. Back then they all used to sit in Bucc's Den leaving the majority of Felucca to us regular players. Now they have just spread out a bit and are now fighting around more of the gates and T2A/dungeon champ spawns.

I simply avoid all the Fel moongates and dungeons and happily never have to interact with anyone other than those who are regular players.

Also, you'll find that childish foul mouthed attitude persists even on the Trammel shard if you go to any of the better loot areas in the game. Those PvPers have to equip themselves in high end gear so you'll find them on their "trammie" characters rudely pushing their way into any high end spot and "claiming" it for themselves.

I often stealth down into those spawns and loot the kills they deem unworthy and pick up all that useless gold they leave behind as they search for the max stat items.

Most red's are pretty decent, yeah if they see you and your a blue that looks wet behind the ear's you will probably get killed, and they might even talk trash a bit. While this may not be the "good sportsman" attitude that some of the red's used to have, you still have only seen the reds now for probably what like 5 seconds I'm guessing, most of the reds now survive by teamwork and nobody is going to want you on their team(Think back to picking teams for whatever sport in gradeschool. First the best players got picked, then the popular kids.....then the last picks were always the little kid or the jerks in the class)
There is just as much scum in the trammel facets than felucca, just because you haven't seen a nice red doesn't mean there aren't any... I'll agree that there are a few pieces of human garbage littering fel giving it a bad name but for the most part the people are decent(You have to think about the person at the wheel of the character) The Magincia event( I wasn't around for it) just proves that tram players are just as bad or worse than the fel players, and here is how I rationalize that.... Felucca players run champ spawns, fight off other guilds and defend thier area... pretty much all the fel player has now.
Now the trammies are given an interesting event with some risk and great reward, but instead of caring for the game as most of them will claim to do, what did they do? The stealthed around leading those demon things all over and totally leveling a WHOLE TOWN, just for a bit of profit.
Here is another example of trammies gone wild.... I was in doom about a month ago and my sampire(which is quiet powerful) and was tanking the darkfather there were a few others there... but this one guy there was getting so upset that I could just stand next to the DF and did a ton of damage to it he started luring the other darkfathers onto me to try to get me killed. I have seen this activity in other places also when treasures of tokuno came out I would kill the demons in fan dancer dojo for the treasures and some stealther guy comes in and starts looting my kill's after the corpse instance was up, now I didn't mind seeing as I wasn't going to loot them anyways, but then he starts luring more monsters onto me, and when enough were there and I finally fell he laughed, called me a noob and left.
You may say that you haven't met a decent red since you came back but I have never met a trammie that was decent or a good person its all about profits for them and they are so used to their safe carebear world, where they know that NO repurcussions will happen no matter what they do(unless the exploit or dupe or some crap) and its a bit redonkulous. The who said something about accountability a few posts above me is right. At least in fel if your a jerk or steal someones spawn or do something out of line, your probably going to be taking a dirt nap... But if the same would happen in trammel what would happen? Nothing you could stick around and try to deal with the lamer or lure spawn(and most likely get a gm paged on you) or just leave. Trammel did not need to happen period it was the worst thing that happened to UO ever, and has probably caused more people to close their accounts than fel ever has alot of people get mad about scripters and whatnot and quit... if this was still a fel based game, good luck trying to script when there are players who CAN AND WILL kill you, I agree that there needed to be some totally safe area, but no monsters should have ever spawned in it, trading shouldn't have been allowed in it.
Take a look at the major free UO server(most of you already know what it is)
its an all fel based shard no trammel!!! The shard probably boasts more players than any production shard... I wonder why.....

Stratics Veteran

I don't want to get into the old arguement that will never have a solution Rico. I was opposed to Trammel when it was introduced. But I remember why it had to happen. OSI was losing it's subscribers en masse. It was becoming so you could not leave a town without a fight and a serious loss of gear. I knew PKs back then that fought with integrity and honor. They lived for the battle. And then I knew PKs who just wanted to grief. They wanted people to get upset. They became the majority among the PvPers and forced the designers to do something. That and available housing....

But we are to argue this.

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You have it right and you should add in the Social disasters, such as (if you were on Sonoma) Famine and core group.

All GMx7, go Gank a New player with a heard of sheep. Kill all the sheep and proceed to tell in graphic detail how they were having sex with every orifice on the sheep they could find, then hown they were having sex with the persons corpse, in great graphic detail. AND THEN publish the account on CoB, in total graphic detail.

Or the Slug NeoNazi that took over the Tavern and began to spout Racist Rhetoric for 30 minutes.

These ... people can think what they want and try to rewrite history all they want but you are right. Trammel was mandated by them to come into existence.

They are now as they were then, they want a Controlled environment of Mad Max were they have absolutely no need to be accountable for unwillingness to exercise Social Responsibility.

Much like preadolescences that demand Free Speech and have no concept of what Speaking Responsibly means.

The "Good" PKR's of that time as now, absoltly refuse to acknowledge the impact of these Social Pariah's on them or UO. They protect them as if it were they that were doing the deeds they profess they find to totally abhorrent. They do so out of fear that some how they will lose all. You need to wonder at their total inability to perceive they are forfeiting every thing they wanted by embracing the Scum that DD thought he could control, that led to his "Virtual" Dead Body that Trammel was created over.

I simply avoid all the Fel moongates and dungeons and happily never have to interact with anyone other than those who are regular players.

Also, you'll find that childish foul mouthed attitude persists even on the Trammel shard if you go to any of the better loot areas in the game. Those PvPers have to equip themselves in high end gear so you'll find them on their "trammie" characters rudely pushing their way into any high end spot and "claiming" it for themselves.

I often stealth down into those spawns and loot the kills they deem unworthy and pick up all that useless gold they leave behind as they search for the max stat items.

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Who's to say that the person rudely pushing in is from fel? There are lots of high end spawn areas in fel(Thats where I hunt) with zero competition, alot of my guildmates do the same. And some area's those players pushing in with their elite gear do so because they can, most probably aren't trying to be rude they just know what thier character can handle and push it to the max. You play on sonoma, wich has a much smaller playerbase than the shard I play on so I'm sure that you could hunt some areas of dungeons for months without seeing a soul, and by saying that you stealth into an area and loot other peoples kills doesn't say much for you.... You don't need to avoid dungeons, just avoid the champ area's, for the most part when a guild does a champ spawn they don't check the whole dungeon for players.

The "Good" PKR's of that time as now, absoltly refuse to acknowledge the impact of these Social Pariah's on them or UO. They protect them as if it were they that were doing the deeds they profess they find to totally abhorrent. They do so out of fear that some how they will lose all. You need to wonder at their total inability to perceive they are forfeiting every thing they wanted by embracing the Scum that DD thought he could control, that led to his "Virtual" Dead Body that Trammel was created over.

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I think you are right on this, I've been saying this for years. I just told some folks on the MMORPG.com UO boards about a month ago that they screwed the pooch themselves. You should have seen the reaction on the Darkfall boards a few years ago when I said it there, heh. The Mods were cool about it though.

One thing about DD though. I don't think he tried to control the PKers, I think he thought players would. Heck, I did too way back then. But in hindsight, I guess if you give all the reward to those who act evul for acting evul, then that's what happens.

It's pretty easy to tell on Sonoma because of the guild names and the fact that alot of these guys put who their PvP character is in their bio. Also, they all tend to hang out with each other in Luna buying and selling gear and trash talking about who they killed on their "main".

Stratics Veteran

I think you are right on this, I've been saying this for years. I just told some folks on the MMORPG.com UO boards about a month ago that they screwed the pooch themselves. You should have seen the reaction on the Darkfall boards a few years ago when I said it there, heh. The Mods were cool about it though.

One thing about DD though. I don't think he tried to control the PKers, I think he thought players would. Heck, I did too way back then. But in hindsight, I guess if you give all the reward to those who act evul for acting evul, then that's what happens.

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I should google the article were he admits that was his greatest mistake here at UO. The believing he could control (his words and phrase) them.

It was the only thing Raphe and I disagreed on but that disagreement was ... very profound in its depth.

A lot of water has gone under the bridge since then and I am sure he is a lot closer to my way of thinking than he was then.

I was hoping to make another character. Kind of see what templates are out there. Maybe even a red or factions, I still might. But I just see the scum of earth out here right now. It just makes me wonder about this game. It makes me wonder what reds nowadays want out of the game.

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That's just it they don't want anything anymore. The only thing they care about now is locking down fel on whatever shard they play but for what reason?

Locking down fel for the champs? Not when they don't really care about getting the scrolls out because I hear them say they only do the champs to fight with people. The funny thing is if they enjoy fighting in fel why not do it even when they are alone and don't have 50 guildies helping them kill one guy? Then regardless of winning or losing they talk so much shiX that it is impossible for anyone to ever respect them ever again in the game.

So what's the point in playing? You don't want to do champs for the gold. You don't want to fight anyone unless your sure you will win. And no one respects you in the slightest. Whats the point?

There are a few old school guys left out there though there really are. They all just took a break from the current trash scene that's all...

That could be why I was under the impression that Raph thought players would take care of it. In recent years he's talked about that, especially how they did this in the MUD days. Maybe he means that players need some design to help make it work.

That's just it they don't want anything anymore. The only thing they care about now is locking down fel on whatever shard they play but for what reason?

Locking down fel for the champs? Not when they don't really care about getting the scrolls out because I hear them say they only do the champs to fight with people. The funny thing is if they enjoy fighting in fel why not do it even when they are alone and don't have 50 guildies helping them kill one guy? Then regardless of winning or losing they talk so much shiX that it is impossible for anyone to ever respect them ever again in the game.

So what's the point in playing? You don't want to do champs for the gold. You don't want to fight anyone unless your sure you will win. And no one respects you in the slightest. Whats the point?

There are a few old school guys left out there though there really are. They all just took a break from the current trash scene that's all...

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Doomsday, I don't think they are being totally honest. They run these zirgs(?) and sell things in RMT. They do indeed try to lock down their servers. They try to totally dominate their server. This is a common theme in other games with free-for-all servers too. It's part of their psyche, to "crush them all".

I can understand this, too. But for a game to be successful like that, it needs to restart from time to time. Otherwise the same thing happens as on all these free-for-all servers. They dry up.

About many people play fel anymore? 10% of the population? The reds I remember were pretty good people and fun to fight. Now days they are mostly a bunch of foul mouthed punks. If I wanted to listen to a foul mouthed punk I'd talk to my neighbors kid. I still play fel but only when all the kiddies are in school and not playing PC jockey. Fel is dying and that sucks.

Your post pretty much answers itself.
Why is Fel like it is? Because of people like those you tend to find there today.

Yes, there are still good people there, but they are greatly outnumbered by the sort 90%+ of the players moved to Tram to get away from.

Why can they use such language without worry?
Because UO has no assigned In-Game GMs anymore. It only gets loaners a couple of days a week from other games. So they have about a 5 in 7 chance that if you do page, there is nobody to answer it, and even on those days there is someone GMing, they will be long gone before a GM ever gets around to your page.

People will talk about how Evil Tram was for the rest of eternity, but the evidence is still there to see. The kind of people that still linger in Felucca are the Reason Tram was necessary, they didn't come into existance with its creation, they were the reason for it.

I think the problem is that there are quite a few people that started pvp when they were young and immature and 10-11 yrs of pvping has stunted their maturing process.

There's a lot of immaturity in pvp and in online gaming in general. You don't learn how to be civil in a computer game and if all you do is play a computer game, you won't learn to be civil.

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I totally agree,

To many of those that get off on PvP figure they will never have to pay the piper, if they did what they do in game in real life they would be one of the homeless or in a shallow grave in some third world country.

And you know exactly the people I mean those that don't understand polite conversation, gank you 3 or 4 to one and spend all thier time saying we so owned you.

I remember the bad old days where if you left a town you get gang ****d the second you got out of the guard zone by 4 or 5 or even more griefers. They didnt do anything to contribute to the experience of the game they just wanted to prevent you from having a good time.

I think the problem with honor and courtesy is not Trammel- or Fel- inspired. I think people are just raised with a lot less of both now (not to mention with a lot less education) in the Real World, and we're seeing it in our game. UO is merely reflecting the decline of Western Civilization. heheh: UO is awesome, but Civilization is just rotting around it.

Almost every single red I've ever met since 2003 has had an extreme superiority complex. Nearly all reds I've encountered will chase me down and kill me on sight regardless of what I'm doing (mining, etc.). There is no respect anymore. In this day and age with Trammel, Felucca, Malas, Tokuno Islands, and Ilshenar, blues are apparently hard to come by in Felucca and every opportunity to kill must be jumped upon.

I had a red last year before I sold my old account and I would only kill either; A) people who killed/attacked me, or B) people I knew were in Felucca to PvP (i.e. at the Yew gate, raiding champ spawns, etc.). I've never once killed a blue in any other situation..

Stratics VeteranStratics Legend

I used to play in Trammel and Fel. I had houses on both facets. I have also been around long enough to remember when there was only one facet.

When Trammel came into being the whole "care bear" ages old arguements surfaced. I still played in Fel and Trammel and respected both facets for what they were.

There was a time in Fel, even after the facet split, where honor was still alive. Don't get me wrong, I saw griefers "and no-holds barred" PKs, but there was also a sence of competition and respect.

Over the past week on my server, I have yet to meet one red person that could say I respected. The language is amazing. "You got owned n**ger*". Nice. It's like everyone lost their civility. I don't mind dieing or getting PKed. But what happened to people? What happened to Fel?

I have been gone 5 years and I return to this? How sad if this is what Fel has become.

You can spin the Fel/Tram split any way you want. It was caused by the type of red that I see now in Felucca. Had people had a little more civility and respect, well..... who knows. Really sad.

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That has nothing to do with fel, and everything to do with society in general. As you say Fel wasn't always like this. Can I also ask which shard you play on? In my experience the blues (in fel) are usually worse than the reds, the red would just rather kill you than talk to you hehe.

Stratics VeteranStratics Legend

Almost every single red I've ever met since 2003 has had an extreme superiority complex. Nearly all reds I've encountered will chase me down and kill me on sight regardless of what I'm doing (mining, etc.).

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Thats because they are reds, aka murderers, its kinda what they do. An ogre doesnt wait for you to finish mining ore before he attacks you does he? Why should you expect a murderer, someone out with the express intent to kill/pvp against another player to act any different?

There is no respect anymore. In this day and age with Trammel, Felucca, Malas, Tokuno Islands, and Ilshenar, blues are apparently hard to come by in Felucca and every opportunity to kill must be jumped upon.

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See this is just talking about getting PKed, no respect because you getting PKed every time you come to fel? I can understand you could be frustrated about this, but I dont see how 'respect' comes into it.

I had a red last year before I sold my old account and I would only kill either; A) people who killed/attacked me, or B) people I knew were in Felucca to PvP (i.e. at the Yew gate, raiding champ spawns, etc.). I've never once killed a blue in any other situation..

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Good for you, that was your choice, others might like to play their reds differently, thats whats great about fel, choice.

Stratics VeteranStratics Legend

To many of those that get off on PvP figure they will never have to pay the piper, if they did what they do in game in real life they would be one of the homeless or in a shallow grave in some third world country.

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The word I bolded is very important and should not be confused with RL.

I remember the bad old days where if you left a town you get gang ****d the second you got out of the guard zone by 4 or 5 or even more griefers. They didnt do anything to contribute to the experience of the game they just wanted to prevent you from having a good time.

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Just because you dont understand the competitive nature of PvP doesn't mean that others don't enjoy it.

Thats why there is now zones where PvP isn't possible.

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Yes, its so people like you who don't understand what PvP is about can play UO on easy mode in Trammel.

Stratics VeteranStratics Legend

LOL no they weren't, UO's population count did not start to decline until AFTER Trammel (see http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart2.html). UO pre Ren was a healthy game on the rise, no matter what spin some people try and put on it.

There's plenty of nice people in Tram just waiting to scream at you to get off their kill or they'll page on you.

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The beauty about Trammel is that, in this situation, I have the freedom to choice to avoid people like that. I have the ability walk away from them and go do something that would be less annoying than having to deal with someone that would cry about something like that. In Felucca I probably wouldn't get yelled at, I would more than likely be attacked on sight. I'd rather choose to walk away than experience the anti-social behavior of the kill-on-sight mentality. Thus, I stay in Trammel, for the most part.

The "honorable" PKs were likely sociable people. They're not going to ride around Felucca talking to themselves. So when almost everyone moved to Trammel, the PKs who could string a coherent sentence together and who wanted to interact with others adapted and moved too. There was probably a tipping point years ago after which all you can reasonably expect to find in Felucca are those who value occasionally being able to pk so highly that they're willing to spend most of their time alone or in small stagnant groups.

I remember the groups of blues. I remember that the reds would kill me, the blues would swoop in and fight the reds, and I'd gather up what was left of my belongings and go back to town to tailor. The blues never helped anyone, they just wanted to pk without losing noto.

Everyone can choose to play on either facet. The vast majority of us have made our choice: we're not going to be victims. Threads like this are amusing because the griefers from so many years ago still cannot get over the fact that their sheep are gone and that no game will ever again make the mistake of forcing 90% of its players to be punching bags for a few anti-social jerks.

LOL no they weren't, UO's population count did not start to decline until AFTER Trammel (see http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart2.html). UO pre Ren was a healthy game on the rise, no matter what spin some people try and put on it.

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That is true, but there were only 3 other MMOs out at that time. UO could have lost quite a bit more and faster had Trammel not been introduced. I am pretty sure I would not still be here.

Stratics Veteran

That could be why I was under the impression that Raph thought players would take care of it. In recent years he's talked about that, especially how they did this in the MUD days. Maybe he means that players need some design to help make it work.

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Oh, if I didn't make it clear, then let me try. DD did want Evil to activate the community. He did want this activation to prompt the player base to constrain Evil. I wanted that. I want that.

He thought he could control the hackers, the exploiters, the jerks/A$$hats. This is the part we ... disagreed on.

I wanted the Role Played/Well Played Evil to be the activating agent. I still want that.

I am 100% confident the game that can manifest a Socially Responsible Role/Well Played Evil, will be the next Mega hit MMORPG.

I wanted DD to slam the hackers, the exploiters etc and remove them from the game. I suspect he did NOT believe that a Role/Well Played Evil would be Evil enough to actually activate a community.

I believe the Wynchies, Leweln, Rico's of UO have it in them to do that job and have the encounter be entertaining and have the common sense to know when it wont be and WALK AWAY from it.

Can UO go there now? I don't know, I have no clue were their REAL funding is comming from. But I doubt it is 100% from the subscriptions and if it is I suspect the Employee's are .... vastly underpaid.

LOL no they weren't, UO's population count did not start to decline until AFTER Trammel (see http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart2.html). UO pre Ren was a healthy game on the rise, no matter what spin some people try and put on it.

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Like the spin you're putting on it?

Looking at that chart, I see the following facts...

1. UO was starting to plateau pre-ren, probably from people leaving because of PKs matching the numbers of new players.

2. There were slowdowns that corresponded to the releases of EQ & AC

3. The numbers proceeded to start rising quickly again with Ren,

4. Then ALL THREE of those games started dropping (or in the case of EQ, slow down to about 20% of its growth before) AT THE SAME TIME, several mosts post-Ren. Why? The obvious answer is to look at the history of MMOs. At the time, a plethora of new MMOs entered Beta (only a few of which survived to release), and there was an upswing in people playing First-person real-time shooters online, as the availability of broadband made the FPS hobby expand from mostly a local network pasttime, to an internet one, and a lot of those prone to PvP went for the more instant, and often cheaper to play, gratification of shooting someone, or being shot and respawning quickly to start shooting again.

Most of the pre-/post- Ren Arguments are based on the fallacy that the game existed in a market with no competitors during the period. As such, BOTH sides are wrong - and one has to look at both MMO & FPS, both computer & console, and changes in the internet, to actually make a relevant argument - if there is even one to find in what occurred.

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