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GOODMAN We're joined, by two people, from the United Methodist Church, the Church of President Bush, and Vice President Cheney[, Rev. James M. Lawson, Jr. and David Wildman, of the United Methodist Church][1.1]. ... GOODMAN ... Rev. Lawson, your's is the Church, of ... President [Bush], and Vice President [Cheney]?

LAWSON Yes [President Bush and Vice President Cheney], both claim membership in United Methodist Church, ... [President Bush and Vice President Cheney], are both ... in ... complete disagreement with, both [the] Church['s] ... understanding of War, [and], the official social policy of the United Methodist Church, [that] says, ... War is incompatible with the sprit and mind of Jesus, who we call, the Christ. So this support of War means, ... [President Bush and Vice President Cheney], are incompatible with Jesus [and Christ], in every fashion [1.2]. ... Jesus was a non-violent warrior .... [Jesus] clearly insisted that, violence and War are Sin, are Evil [1.3]. ... We have within the United Methodist Church a religious Right that is not interested in Jesus or Theology or the reform of the Church. But their interested in, basically white supremacy. They ... want, management, and domination of the United Methodist Church. We have similar forces, in the Presbyterian Church, in the Lutheran Church, and a number of the other major, ... Protestant denominations. The religious Right does not basically have an understanding of the Bible or an understanding of Jesus [1.4]. ... Moses, the Profits, Jesus, Paul, ... all insist; that major responsibility for religion, is care of the neighbor. And that means, among other things, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, caring for the prisoner, seeing to it that the widow is cared for [1.5]. ... The religious Right, is an enemy of authentic Religion. ... It is far more a representative of; the 500 years of Western ... expansion and search for Gold, [and] conquest with the Bible in the other hand. It is far more representative of that, than it is of Jesus [1.6]. ... WILDMAN ... In early October [2002] the Bishops wrote, an ... incredibly powerful letter, about preemptive War and they said in that the preemptive War, by the United States, against a Nation, like Iraq, goes against the very grain of our understanding, of the gospel, our Churches teachings, and our conscious. And so they were quite clear, that in no circumstances, could the Church support preemptive War. ... They've been trying, to meet with the President, since February [2002], and his office has not responded. ...

GOODMAN For 10 months?

WILDMAN For 10 months.

WILDMAN And in October, there were ... 8 or 9 ... United Methodist Bishops ... in Washington DC, the very same day, that the Vote took place, and the very same day, that the christian Coalition, had a demonstration, in support of Israel. The President chose on that day, to inform the [United Methodist] Bishops, that the ... White House, would not meet with them, and yet had the time, to send a video taped segment, to the christian Coalition, of greetings and support. And I think that shows, the theology of Empire, ... that [President Bush] espouses [(gives loyalty or support to)] and that ... Pat Robinson and others ... [espouse]. ... And I [would] just like, to read from Micah [3:5-8] [(also Mica, Micha, Micah)] [( http://www.dickinsonchurchofchrist.org/micah3food.htm )] [( http://www.searchgodsword.org )] [the Methodist Bible] ... a quote, that refers to the religious Right, ... from many years ago. [(start quote)] Thus says the Lord, concerning the profits, who lead my people astray; who cry, Peace, when they have something to eat, but they declare, War, against those who put nothing into their mouths. [(end quote)] And I think what we're seeing now, is the ... War of Empire [1.7].

Amy Goodman [(start quote)] ... He persistently attempted to block school desegregation in his state; a federal court threatened to hold the state in contempt, for his failure to comply with a court order. He gave a lengthy interview to the Neo-Confederate magazine Southern Partisan, in which he praised Confederate leaders who fought to preserve slavery, including Robert E. Lee and Jefferson Davis. He distorted the record of a highly qualified African American state Supreme Court Judge and misled his colleagues in the Senate, successfully sabotaging the judge's nomination to a federal district court. He received an honorary degree from Bob Jones University and spoke there just three years ago; the Christian university has a segregationist history and until recently banned interracial dating and marriage. No, this is not the resume of the embattled Senate Republican Leader Trent Lott. It is the resume of the man who has already been entrusted to enforce the nation's civil rights laws. We're talking about Attorney General John Ashcroft. Secretary of State General Colin Powell yesterday said he is disappointed in Senator Lott and he deplores the sentiments behind Lott's statement. Two weeks ago, Lott said America would be better off today if Strom Thurmond had won the 1948 presidency on his "Segregation Forever" platform. Lincoln Chafee of Rhode Island became the first Republican Senator to call unambiguously for Lott to step down, and Florida Governor Jeb Bush also criticized the Senator. As the criticism and calls for Lott's resignation increase, we thought it's time to take another look at Attorney General John Ashcroft ... [(end quote)][2]. [2] Why Isn't Ashcroft In Lotts of Trouble? ... http://www.webactive.com/pacifica/demnow/dn20021219.htmlhttp://stream.realimpact.net/rihurl.ram?file=webactive/demnow/dn20021219.ra&start=15:07.3http://www.pfaw.org/

Nathan Richter or Tracy Duckett [(start quote)] ... President Bush's first appointment, Attorney General John Ashcroft, has a civil rights record that is every bit as appalling - if not more so - as Trent Lott's ... [(end quote)][3]. [3] George W. Bush, Trent Lott and John Ashcroft: A Shared Philosophy http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oid=7276

Nathan Richter or Tracy Duckett [(start quote)] ... Despite President Bush's denunciation of Lott's remarks, when it comes to actions, the Bush administration and Trent Lott are on the same page. The similarity in their approach, to civil rights issues, is clearly reflected in the Bush Justice Department, the agency entrusted with, enforcing the nation's civil rights laws. One of President George W. Bush's, first actions as President, was to appoint as U.S. Attorney General a man with a 25-year public record of hostility to civil rights principles and protections. Among the low points of John Ashcroft's career before becoming Attorney General: ... As Missouri Attorney General and Governor, John Ashcroft earned scathing criticism from community leaders, statewide media, and religious leaders for his persistent and unyielding efforts to obstruct school desegregation in St. Louis more than two decades after the U.S. Supreme Court struck down school segregation. Even the federal court assigned to the case criticized Ashcroft's conduct, referring to his [quote] feckless appeals [end quote] and threatening to hold the state in contempt for his failure to comply with a court order. The St. Louis Post-Dispatch commented that Ashcroft was acting [quote] as if segregation is here to stay. ... [end quote][4] [4] The Bush Justice Department and Related Administration and GOP Civil Rights Activities http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oid=7278

Nathan Richter or Tracy Duckett [(start quote)] ... [T]here is no substantive difference between, Lott and the Bush administration, when it comes to current civil rights policies. A report released today by People For the American Way documents that the Bush administration and its Senate allies have in fact been aggressively promoting a legal and judicial agenda that would turn back the clock on many of the legal and social justice gains of the past five decades ... [(end quote)][5]. [5] Bush, Lott, and Ashcroft: Shared Agendas Threaten Civil Rights Gains http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oid=7274

Note: {GOODMAN, LAWSON, WILDMAN} The speakers last name is given in all caps, preceding their transcribed statements. {statements} The quote marks around statements have been omitted and should be implicitly implied. Some text editors and scanners, alter quote marks unpredictably. Some monitoring software, searches for quote marks, and alters them (?statement?). {...} Three dots in a row; represent deleted optional discretionary statements such as; umm, redundant repeated words (honest mistakes), giggles, etc.. They have been deleted for readability. {[text]} Brackets around text; represent text added to or replacing a statement, to make an implied concept, explicit. (the statement; they, replaced by, the text; [President Bush and Vice President Cheney]), or text added to a statement, for readability. (the text; 's, is added to, the statement; Church, to form; Church['s]) If you have any concerns about these changes, compare the transcript to the original audio tape: http://stream.realimpact.net/rihurl.ram?file=webactive/demnow/dn20021210.ra&start=8:34.9

In 1948, December 10th, the United Nations General Assembly, adopted the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Then, the world was recovering from, World War Two, the Holocaust, the rise of Hitler and Fascism in Europe, and the [Nuclear] bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Today, the Bush administration, is preparing to unleash, another war, on the people of Iraq. Dozens of prisoners are being held, in Guantanamo Bay, without access to courts or lawyers. Unknown numbers of immigrants, have been deported or are still in detention, in this country. Police are cracking down on public protests, and everyone here, is under increasing surveillance, by the State.

We thought we'd take a minute, to remember the Declaration, the Universal Declaration Of Human Rights.

A few excerpts:

Article 3: Everyone has the right to; life, liberty, and security of person.

Article 5: No one shall be subjected to; torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment, or punishment.

Article 9: No one shall be subjected to; arbitrary arrest, detention, or exile.

Article 10: Everyone is entitled in full equality to; a fair and public hearing, by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations, and of any criminal charge against him.

Article 12: No one shall be subjected to; arbitrary interference, with his privacy, family, home, or correspondence.

Article 19: Everyone has the right to; freedom of opinion and expression, this right includes freedom to; hold opinions without interference, and to seek, receive, and impart information and ideas, through any media. and

Article 20: Everyone has the right to; freedom of peaceful assembly and association.

Well all over the United States today, people will be taking to the streets, to protest the looming war in Iraq.

Here in New York, hundreds of religious leaders, will be marching, on the United Nations. Over fifty, are expected to engage in nonviolent civil disobedience. The religious leaders, will be challenging the morality of another war with Iraq.

Today, we're going to have a discussion, on the role of, Christian teaching and the Church, in the peace movement.

We're joined, by two people, from the United Methodist Church, the Church of President Bush, and Vice President Cheney.

David Wildman, is with the Human Rights and Racial Justice group, of Global Ministries, he plans to engage, in the civil disobedience today.

And we're joined by, the Reverend James Lawson, a longtime peace advocate and civil rights leader, considered one of the leading architects, of the civil rights movement, and a personal tutor on nonviolence, to Dr. Martin Luther King. His activism began, during the Korean War, when he was jailed, as a conscientious objector. In 1957, Rev. Lawson first met Martin Luther King, and they soon joined forces, to realize their dream, of starting a non-violent mass movement. That same year, Rev. Lawson went to Nashville, to teach the mechanics of nonviolence, to budding civil rights activists. He continued to work with King, until his death, but has never given up, their shared dream. For 14 years, he served as President, of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, the organization founded by King, to end racial segregation, by nonviolent protest. Rev. Lawson is currently, the pastor, at Holman United Methodist Church, in Los Angeles.

We welcome Rev. Lawson and David Wildman, of ... the United Methodist Church, to Democracy Now.

LAWSON and WILDMAN Thank You.

GOODMAN ... why don’t we, start off ... with David Wildman, your planning to engage in civil disobedience, this morning?

WILDMAN Well actually, I’m not, planning my self, ... there’s ... many religious leaders. There’s another International Human Rights event, in the afternoon, that I'll be a part of ... and, I think it’s a symbolic effort, of religious leaders to say, ... christians are part of the problem here, in terms of who’s waging the War, and we need to be out front, with our brothers and sisters of other faiths, ... to take a stance and say; No to War.

GOODMAN ... Rev. Lawson, your's is the Church, of ... President [Bush], and Vice President [Cheney]?

LAWSON Yes [President Bush and Vice President Cheney], both claim membership in United Methodist Church, but of course ... it has to be said that, [President Bush and Vice President Cheney], are both ... people who [are], in ... complete disagreement with, both [the] Church[‘s] ... understanding of War, [and], the official social policy of the United Methodist Church , [that] says, ... War is incompatible with the sprit and mind of Jesus, who we call, the Christ.

So this support of War means, ... [President Bush and Vice President Cheney], are incompatible with Jesus [and Christ], in every fashion.

But of course it has to be said that, ... our problem with War, in the last 60 years, has been the fact that, ... it’s christian ... people, who have supported their States in War, especially the United States, more than any other group.

Everyone knows that, except the christians, to quote from what Gandhi said. But any kind of study, of the four Gospels, of the New Testament, which represent, the best information we have about Jesus, would indicate that, [Jesus] clearly insisted that, violence and War are Sin, are Evil.

He told Peter, in the Garden of Gethsemane, when ... Peter drew his sword, and cut off ... the ear of one of the people, who came to arrest Jesus. Jesus said to Peter, put up your sword, for they who take the sword, will parish by the sword. ...

Not even the Biblical Scholars, have been able to indicate that, Jesus did not mean by that: ... In [Jesus’s] own self defense, ... love and truth and standing with them, even with the most difficult and perplexing situation, was the way forward, and not to engage in then the ... imitation of killing.

GOODMAN Can you talk a little about, the history of non-violence in this country?

LAWSON Ohhhh!, ... You are ask[ing] me a question, that is almost impossible to do ... . I’ve lectured and taught it, at Harvard Divinity School, ... I’ll be teaching it at UCLA in Los Angles ... again, in the spring of next year. I’ve taught it in a variety of places, ... It’s one of the ... hidden secrets, of America life and American History, because you don’t find it in a normal History books. Even though it was a huge item! For an example, you have to say it began, ... in the [American] Colonies, in the 17th century, because, the original agitation for independence, came basically through non-violent ... efforts, petitions to the King, ... letters to the King, ... agitation in ... the Colonies by small groups of people, ... button holing one another and ... talking to them about it, and then of course this escalated, to the place of boycotts of British goods, ... refusing to pay taxes, refusing to ... give hospitably to British soldiers, in their homes, ... it included ... major marches and demonstrations of all kinds, so the agitation which led to July 4th ... 1776, and the Declaration of the equality of all of life, coming not from Governments, but from ... the Creator ... . ... The preliminary movements for that, were fundamentally non-violent, efforts. Then the Abolitionist Movement, is another example. The efforts on the part of black people, in Pennsylvania, in New England, to not allow the trains and the carriages, to become segregated. That was beginning to take place, in ... the country, on the railroad trains, going south and coming north, for one example. The first Freedom Ride, was 1840, not 1947, ... as an illustration. The Abolitionist Movement, many of them called themselves, ... non-resisters. Many out of the Churches, ... called themselves Christen resisters. The Quakers, in the ... colony of Pennsylvania, in 17 th century, who for 80 years, not a native a Native American was killed, not a settler was killed. Because for 80 years, the Quakers controlled the colony. When they lost control of the colony, then the first Pennsylvania Native American Wars began, in western Pennsylvania. For 80 years, Wars reigned against Native Americans, in New York, and Delaware, and New Jersey. But in the colony of Pennsylvania, William Pen and John Woolman, and others, said; We will treat them like we treat ourselves. And so there were, no Wars, for 80 years. It's ... an extraordinary story ...! It was not called non-violence then, because it is Gandhi who insisted, ... that this is not passivism, as in the Western, Christian, tradition, but this is; active, militant, reaching out, to ... resist Evil on the one side, and to dismantle it, and then to replace it, with Liberty and with Justice for All. So ... one of the gifts, of the twentieth century, like the gift of Physics, is the gift that all over the World, ... millions of people, [are] engaged in ... non-violent revolution, ... making it impossible for Governments, to manage, certain things. Perhaps, one of the most exciting illustrations of that, would be 1980, with the emergence of Solidarity in Poland, ... the organizing of ten million workers in that Union, their non-violent ... struggle, that threw many of them in jails, caused torture and repression, but by 1988, the Communist Government, the authoritarian Government, knew it was finished. And of course then, it collapsed. That happened in Czechoslovakia, it happened in East Germany. So ... the history of non-violence, is a ... superb ... message, that Gandhi called, the secret ... of the human race. Because it's so prevalent, and so overwhelming, outside of christian circles, outside of America, inside America, literally all over the World.

GOODMAN Rev. Lawson, ... you also speak a lot about, when I heard you at Union Theological Seminary, ... last year, ... talking about the christian Right. I mean you have , Bush and Cheney and the Methodist Church, ... and then you have, the christian Right's, support ... for War. Can you talk about people like Pat Robertson now?

LAWSON Yes, for one has to remember, that people like Trent Lott and Pat Robertson, are both people of my generation, who in the 60's, were adamant about the fact, that the bible dictates, segregation of the races. Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, a whole range of today's conservative voices so-called, were leaders against desegregating our society, breaking down the apartheid. The episodes in the paper today, about Trent Lott's statements, about ... Strom Thurmond, ... are not accidental statements. This is where he was as a student, at old Miss., engaging in the riot, to keep James Meredith, a black man in 1962, from going into the law school, at [the] old [University of Mississippi]. [( http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/South/09/30/meredith/ )] He has not changed those statements. We have within the United Methodist Church a religious Right that is not interested in Jesus or Theology or the reform of the Church. But their interested in, basically white supremacy. They ... want, management, and domination of the United Methodist Church. We have similar forces, in the Presbyterian Church, in the Lutheran Church, and a number of the other major, ... Protestant denominations. The religious Right does not basically have an understanding of the Bible or an understanding of Jesus. It has imposed upon the Bible a totalitarian closed intellectual and ideological system. So that, it can not, for an example, see, in the scriptures, the extent to which, over and over again, Moses, the Profits, Jesus, Paul, ... all insist; that major responsibility for religion, is care of the neighbor. And that means, among other things, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, caring for the prisoner, seeing to it that the widow is cared for. I mean, that ... happens in almost every ... book, of the Hebrew Christian Bible. ... Pat Robinson ..., does not represent that perspective at all. He sees instead, ... that he must become a multimillionaire. He sees the Bible as, authorizing him as a white man, to be in charge, of places in Africa, as well as places in the United States.

GOODMAN In the Congo?

LAWSON In the Congo ... precisely. ...

LAWSON The religious Right, is an enemy of authentic Religion. ... It is far more a representative of; the 500 years of Western ... expansion and search for Gold, [and] conquest with the Bible in the other hand. It is far more representative of that, than it is of Jesus. ... [(station break)] ...

GOODMAN Now 89 Methodist Bishops, went to try to meet with [President] Bush, over a stance on War, David Wildman?

WILDMAN ... In early October [2002] the Bishops wrote, an ... incredibly powerful letter, about preemptive War and they said in that the preemptive War, by the United States, against a Nation, like Iraq, goes against the very grain of our understanding, of the gospel, our Churches teachings, and our conscious. And so they were quite clear, that in no circumstances, could the Church support preemptive War. ... They've been trying, to meet with the President, since February [2002], and his office has not responded. ...

GOODMAN For 10 months?

WILDMAN For 10 months.

WILDMAN And in October, there were ... 8 or 9 ... United Methodist Bishops ... in Washington DC, the very same day, that the Vote took place, and the very same day, that the christian Coalition, had a demonstration, in support of Israel. The President chose on that day, to inform the [United Methodist] Bishops, that the ... White House, would not meet with them, and yet had the time, to send a video taped segment, to the christian Coalition, of greetings and support. And I think that shows, the theology of Empire, ... that [President Bush] espouses [(gives loyalty or support to)] and that ... Pat Robinson and others ... [espouse]. ... And I [would] just like, to read from Mica [(also Micah, Micha, Micah)] [(The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia)] [( http://www.searchgodsword.org )] [the Methodist Bible] ... a quote, that refers to the religious Right, ... from many years ago. [(quote)] Thus says the Lord, concerning the profits, who lead my people astray; who cry, Peace, when they have something to eat, but they declare, War, against those who put nothing into their mouths. [(end quote)] And I think what we're seeing now, is the ... War of Empire. That there are gates in this World ... and ... the Bush Administration, are saying; we inside the gates; call the shots and call the tunes, for everyone. And the poor and the marginalized, that are outside the gates it doesn't matter. So in terms of the sanctions in Iraq, it doesn't matter. In terms of casualties [of] children that will die, like the early Christmas story, of the saluter of the innocence, it doesn't matter, to the Empire. It certainly does [matter], to the People. And ... St. Augustan, long ago, ... made a comparison, about the violence of ... Pirates, in the Mediterranean, during the [Rule] of Alexander the Great, which today we might say; are the violence of terrorist. And ... in the city of God, St. Augustan said; the answer which a captured Pirate (or terrorist) gave to the celebrated Alexander the Great, was perfectly accurate and correct. When the King asked the [Pirate], what he meant by; infesting the sea (by terrorizing civilians), he boldly replied; what you mean by Warring on the whole World, I do my fighting on a tiny ship, and they call me a Pirate (or a terrorist), you do yours with a large fleet ... and they call you, Commander in Chief.

GOODMAN [That was] David Wildman of the United Methodist Church.

GOODMAN ... Rev. Lawson what do you think ... is necessary, for a successful peace movement, in [the United States] today?

LAWSON I think we must adopt slogans like; ... Saddam did not close my health clinic. And we must get into the streets, by the millions and millions of people. That will demonstrate, to the Majors, and the Governors, and the President, and Congress that; Government for War and Violence, is not manageable, and that they will have to deal with, [the] legitimate concerns of the people. ... Consistently for over 60, 70, 80, 90 years the American people have said; we want our tax money, for health care for everybody, for education, for housing. That, will of the people, has never been followed, except in periods like; The New Deal, ... the efforts on the part of Kennedy and Johnson, ... in the movement ... for peace in the 60's, in what I call sometimes, the King movement for liberty and justice. ... Well we have to emulate those movements again, learn from them, ... build upon them, and do them in a fashion, that was never done in the ... twentieth century. ... So that we ... essentially start, a non-violent warfare, a protracted struggle, in which many of us must be prepared, to sacrifice life and limb and position, and to keep doing it until such time, as we can turn the tide, of the ... corporate politics, and the politics of violence, into the politics of Democracy and non-violence.

GOODMAN David Wildman, finally before we go to, listeners around the country who've called in, to talk about what they'll be doing on this day, where there will be more than, a hundred protests in the country. What is United For Peace?

WILDMAN ... United For Peace, is a ... new and growing, coalition, that started ... in October, ... tho it certainly had precedence to that, ... of over a hundred organizations, from around the country that are; committed to Peace, committed to Human Rights, committed to Civil Liberties. ... To say; we need to unite for Peace and say No to War. ... It has a web site, [ http://www.unitedforpeace.org ] and there's over a hundred actions, that will be taking place, just today, ... International Human Rights Day, from human billboards to candlelight vigils, acumentacal services, ... walks in the malls ... saying; Drop Toys, Not Bombs. ... I urge everyone to go to the web site, and just get a flavor for the range of things. And these are things happening today, but the movement is much more, beyond that of ... people reaching out to one another, there's an Iraq pledge of resistance, which is part of this, civil disobedience is happening, not just here in New York, but in many cities across the country today, and people are signing pledges to say in the event of War; ... this is a growing movement, of civil disobedience to say, we will oppose this. ... We will stop paying taxes in some cases. So there's many exciting things going on, in this ... uniting for Peace movement.