We carry extracts from a wide-ranging interview between Sinn Fein’s
Deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness and Shaun Connolly of the Irish
Examiner on his campaign to become President, his IRA past, his efforts
to end the conflict in the North of Ireland and his call for a vote on
Irish unity.

Q. You never really wanted to be president, did you?

A. I was very philosophical from the very beginning, when I was asked
to stand for the presidency -- I did so, throwing myself heart and soul
into the campaign and doing my best to ensure we won. So those people
who say I never wanted to win, I think they’ve got it completely wrong.

I also was very conscious of the fact that it was going to be an uphill
task.

Q. What was the low point of the campaign for you?

A. I think there was obviously a difficult moment in Athlone.

Q. When David Kelly [son of Irish soldier Paddy Kelly, who was killed
by the IRA] confronted you?

A. My heart went out to David Kelly. In situations like that it is very
traumatic for people who have been effected as a result of the
conflict. But I think that, in terms of live television, that was
obviously, for want of a better word, seen as a dramatic moment. I
don’t think that was one that was in any way going to advance my
campaign and I understood that.

Q. Would you see it as a stunt then?

A. I can’t say one way or another whether it was a stunt. I know other
people have suggested that, but I certainly wouldn’t make that
allegation. As far as I’m concerned the person who was in front of me
was someone who had lost someone in a violent incident and my heart
went out to him.

Q. On count night in Dublin Castle you were noticeably tactile with
Miriam O’Callaghan. Would that suggest you regret your reaction to her
“murder question”? Do you regret storming into her dressing room and
confronting her over that?

A. I didn’t storm into her dressing room.

Q. How did the situation evolve then?

A. I very politely, at the end of the press conference at RTE, asked
Miriam to have a conversation with me about what she said in the
programme.

And, you’re talking then about what happened at the count. Effectively,
Miriam came off the stage after she had spoken to RTE and went to my
wife and two children, two daughters, and apologised for her
performance on the show.

Q. What did she say?

A. Well, that’s a matter between Miriam and my family.

Q. She apologised for asking you that question?

A. Well, as far as I was concerned she apologised for her behaviour,
and that, as far as I’m concerned, that was the end of it.

Q. You don’t feel it was a legitimate question then?

A. I think that it wasn’t a legitimate question. In the course of the
debate I thought the question was totally out of order. For example,
four or five months previously I fought the Assembly elections here in
the North, and I was involved in all sorts of TV debates alongside
Peter Robinson, and the IRA was not mentioned once.

Q. But you’ve never stood in the Republic before, and you do admit to
being a member of the IRA until 1974, and the IRA did kill people -- a
lot of civilians -- so surely it’s legitimate for that to be brought up?

A. During the course of the question she described me as a murderer --
on what basis was she making that allegation?

Q. Because you are a member of the IRA? And there are many people who
have been members of the IRA who haven’t killed anybody, so I think it
wasn’t a legitimate question.

Q. Is there not collective responsibility for the deaths?

A. Nobody is charged here in the North, or as far as I understand, in
the South with killing people by dint of the fact that they were
members of the IRA, that’s what the law says.

Q. During the conflict, the British murdered people -- most openly on
Bloody Sunday -- and also by proxies, and the loyalist groups murdered
people. So are you saying the IRA never murdered anybody in 38 years?

A. No, what I’m responsible for is what I did when I was involved with
the IRA. I was involved with the IRA because the people of my city were
being treated like second- or third-class citizens and were being
beaten and tortured and shot by the British army. I refuse to apologise
to anybody for fighting back. I also do not stand over the IRA killing
of any innocent person, and I have been on the record of being critical
of the IRA when they did so in the past.

Q. You would accept that at least some of the IRA killings during the
conflict were murders?

A. The IRA have been on the public record as having apologised for
people who were killed, people who were non-combatants who were killed
by them and I think it was the right thing to do. War is a terrible
thing, and in a war situation many things are done which people think
are not fair.

Q. It seems incongruous that the IRA is unable to admit that it -- to
use the same terminology -- did murder some people.

A. You can talk to the IRA about that.

Q. Well, you were a member of the IRA -- I don’t know any other members
of the IRA.

A. I left the IRA in 1974 and, in my opinion, the IRA during the course
of the conflict in Derry, their battle was against the British army and
the RUC. If you’re asking me when the IRA killed British soldiers on
the streets of Derry was that murder, I don’t belive it was -- I believe
it was self-defence.

Q. But was it murder when they killed Jean McConville [executed by the
IRA as an informer in 1972]?

A. I don’t know anything about the circumstances surrounding Jean
McConville -- other than it was alleged that she was an informer for the
British government.

Q. So your view would be the IRA didn’t murder anyone in 38 years?

A. No, no, it’s not my view at all. My view is very, very clear that I
am answerable for what I did and the IRA are answerable for what they
did. There are people out there who belive that their loved ones were
murdered by the IRA. Am I going to contest that view with them? No I’m
not.

Q. The fact that people didn’t believe you’d left the IRA in 1974
seemed to irritate you a lot in the campaign.

A. How did it irritate me?

Q. You clearly were irritated.

I stated my opinion whenever I was asked. I never had to fight when I
was in the IRA, and I am not ashamed of being in the IRA during the
course of what were very difficult times in Derry city, when people
were being murdered by the British army.

Q. But why did you decide to leave in 1974 then. Surely it’s not like
letting your gym membership elapse?

A. Because I wanted to build Sinn Fein as a political party and I
wanted to be part of opening Sinn Fein advice centres and I wanted to
be part of ensuring that ether was a Republican voice able to speak on
behalf of Irish Republicanism, and I have been at the heart of trying
to build Sinn Fein in the North for decades.

Q. What are the practicalities of leaving the IRA? Who do you go to
hand in your resignation to?

A. Well, you don’t have to hand in your resignation. What happened in
my case is that I got out of prison in November 1974 and the
practicalities of it is either you report back to the IRA or you don’t.

Q. They don’t come looking for you?

A. No, they don’t. It’s up to you to report back.

Q. How many times did MI5 try to turn you?

A. Never.

Q. Really? But surely you were a senior figure. They would have tried
it on with everyone?

A. No, never... I’ve never been approached by anybody either in the RUC
or MI5 to give information. Why? Because they knew it would be a waste
of time.

Q. The IRA did seem to be quite heavily penetrated again by the late
‘80s though. Would that be your view?

A. Well, it’s always my view that organisations involved in national
liberation struggles, anywhere in the world, are penetrated by those
that they are opposed to -- it’s the degree to which they’re penetrated,
but...

Q. Do you think that [former Taoiseach] Bertie Ahern’s role in the
peace process has been overstated?

A. The key player, if your asking me to make a judgement on the two
governments, was Tony Blair. Tony Blair’s arrival in Downing Street in
1997 was of immense significance.

Q. No British prime minister cast a shadow over Northern Ireland like
Margaret Thatcher. The IRA came within seconds of assassinating her in
1984. If that had succeeded, what gains would that have given to the
Republican movement?

A. It’s hard to know. It didn’t happen.

Q. Not for the want of trying.

A. Absolutely. But she continued in power, and it was quite interesting
that just before she left office it was quite clear that she authorised
someone to come and speak to me. I met with him, both with the support
of Sinn Fein and the IRA.

Q. Do you have any interest in seeing the Thatcher movie?

A. Not really, but I’m a huge fan of Meryl Streep and would be
delighted if she got another Oscar because she is such a fabulous
actress.

Q. You seem to be changing your position on whether you want to meet
Queen Elizabeth or not -- but why on earth do you think she would want
to meet you?

A. (Laughs) Maybe she wouldn’t, maybe she would have no interest at
all. But I am told on good authority, by people in the know, that
Prince Charles has been discussing this with people in the political
process. But I have to say I have had at least six written invitations
from Buckingham Palace to garden parties in the palace over recent
years. I haven’t attended any, but I suppose that answers your
question.

Q. The Presidential campaign was at times surreal. You had, at one end
of the spectrum, Dana claiming to be the victim of a murder plot, then
we had you being accused of murder on live TV. It was a bit of a
circus.

A. There were too many candidates. There will be a huge study done on
how the media handled the election. We had [TV3 debate moderator]
Vincent [Browne]’s theatrics, pulling out the books of some people who
would be, in my opinion and the opinion of many others, very unreliable
witnesses.

Q. No apology from him then?

A. (Laughs) No, no apology. Miriam didn’t apologise to me -- she
apologised to my wife and two daughters.

A. It wasn’t designed to irk anybody. If you look at the reaction of
people in the North at how the media conducted itself, particularly in
regard to myself, there is considerable annoyance.

Q. But it’s a loaded term. It’s like a black person calling another
black person a coconut, because they’re white inside. You seemed to be
insinuating that some Irish people aren’t as Irish as you are.

A. No, I do believe the overwhelming majority of the Irish people are
as Irish as I am, and I am certainly as Irish as they are, but I do
believe that there are people, particularly within some sections of the
media in Dublin, who are very sympathetic, if you like, to the British.

Q. Are you disappointed your relationship with Mr Robinson doesn’t
appear to be as warm as your one with Ian Paisley?

A. People heralded Peter Robinson coming to the First Minister’s
position would mean we moved from the Chuckle Brothers to the Brothers
Grim -- nothing of the sort.

Q. His body language to you is often quite difficult. To me it looks
like he wants to punch you half the time.

A. I don’t know how you can make that assessment. I had a good personal
relationship with Ian Paisley, but I have a better working relationship
with Peter Robinson.

Q. Would the DUP ever be ready for a vote on the future of the north?

A. At some stage in the future, yes.

Q. It looks like Scotland will have a vote on leaving the UK a long
time ahead of the North. When would the North have one?

A. In all probability, the people who have got the power to put that in
place won’t even contemplate it this side of the next Assembly
elections, which conceivably could be 2015 or 2016.

Q. So the vote would be in the next term then?

A. I don’t see any reason whatsoever why that should not be considered.

Q. That’s your ambition?

A. It just seems to me to be a sensible timing.

Q. A vote on the future of the Six Counties?

A. It would be on the question of whether or not the people of the Six
Counties wish to retain the link with what is described as the United
Kingdom, or be part of a united Ireland.

Q. Why would the North vote to join an economic basket case like the
Republic?

A. It’s a mistake to think people are going to decide their future on
what has been a particularly disastrous period of the handling of the
economy by the government in Dublin. People will make a decision on the
potential that the reunification of Ireland can bring for them in terms
of political stability and in terms of having economic levers in their
own hands.