Comments on: “I am so goth, I was born black.”http://boingboing.net/2012/09/18/i-am-so-goth-i-was-born-bl.html
Brain candy for Happy MutantsMon, 15 Sep 2014 23:11:17 +0000hourly1http://wordpress.org/?v=4.2.2By: ukegaphttp://boingboing.net/2012/09/18/i-am-so-goth-i-was-born-bl.html#comment-1537195
Thu, 20 Sep 2012 21:14:00 +0000http://boingboing.net/?p=181844#comment-1537195Zulu is a brother Mason.
]]>By: DataShadehttp://boingboing.net/2012/09/18/i-am-so-goth-i-was-born-bl.html#comment-1536635
Thu, 20 Sep 2012 04:58:00 +0000http://boingboing.net/?p=181844#comment-1536635I have a few friends in the NYC goth scene and I’m not at all surprised by what you’re saying.

BUT the linked article isn’t about the people in the scene, it’s about the people who manage magazines, labels, clubs, etc. and their prejudice towards a “marketable” ideal – an ideal that isn’t wrong, but is much more narrow than the community would support. Their thesis – that the average goth would be happy to see an attractive non-white person on the cover of a magazine – is supported by your comment. =)

]]>By: DataShadehttp://boingboing.net/2012/09/18/i-am-so-goth-i-was-born-bl.html#comment-1536628
Thu, 20 Sep 2012 04:46:00 +0000http://boingboing.net/?p=181844#comment-1536628Goth actually sort of evolved from punk, more than black metal. Punk was what happened when kids in the 70s rejected both the uncaring face of capitalism and the “soft tyranny” of the hippy left and put their indignant repudiation of adulthood to music. Goth was what happened when the anger cooled a little and merged with a sort of hopeless resignation to the slings and arrows of a world beyond your capacity to either control or accept.

Black metal really sort of started in England, the first band to do corpse paint was from Denmark, and the first band to use the phrase “death metal” was from California. The Norwegian black metal scene didn’t start up until the “first wave” of death metal – and Goth – was starting to fade out in the late 80s, early 90s.

When the crazy vikings started burning down churches, defacing Christian iconography, and killing (allegedly eating?) rival bands and fractious bandmates, it put them on the map, and so they are what most people think of when they think of death metal.

Goth/Industrial groups sampled some death-metal types in the 80s, then non-violent-murderer death-metal bands picked up on the goth vibe in the early 90s and went their own way, which is why you’ll find goth rock/death metal overlap in the US and non-nordic nations.

The two girls I knew who were most obsessed with corsets were definitely not overweight – one (5’2″, ~100?) acted like she thought she had a chance of Guinness World Record tightest corset-cinching, and the other (5’10”, ~150?) made several corsets as part of her quest to create the world’s most glam/camp/vamp/goth halloween costume.

On the other hand, I was a teenage/early-20s male and I’ve discounted a fair number of my memories and judgments from that time period as … unjust or inaccurate due to hormonal influences. So maybe our home regions were widely different, or maybe they weren’t and I’m over-charitable in my recollections.

The *constituency* of the subculture is very clearly *not* uniformly white, but the people *managing* the cultural institutions – clubs, record labels, magazines, etc – *are* predominantly white and (while probably subconsciously so) racist enough that it becomes off-putting.

By ‘ethnic’, do you mean a different ethnicity from you? Or do you hang out with non-biological life-form goths?

]]>By: OtherMichaelhttp://boingboing.net/2012/09/18/i-am-so-goth-i-was-born-bl.html#comment-1536300
Wed, 19 Sep 2012 21:00:00 +0000http://boingboing.net/?p=181844#comment-1536300 ? What? I thought it was the exact opposite. It was saying “getting all pale should be seen as a cool pursuit of being different — except some idiots somehow put the pale cart before the different horse, and now pursue paleness instead of being different, and exclude the non-pales as a result.”

That’s not “NO FUN ALLOWED” it’s “YOU IDIOTS THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE >>>FUN<<< NOT ALL PALE ALL THE TIME"

I'm reminded of my first "real" concert in a venue, back in 1990. Skinny Puppy. I was so excited. And then I discovered than almost everybody in the club was wearing black. I felt like I was at a frat party, only instead of baseballs caps they had black clothes and eyeliner.

]]>By: Kris Sakarahttp://boingboing.net/2012/09/18/i-am-so-goth-i-was-born-bl.html#comment-1536264
Wed, 19 Sep 2012 20:29:00 +0000http://boingboing.net/?p=181844#comment-1536264I havent come across many ethnic people in my time as a goth type. But those that i did know were never treated badly. The London Goth scene loved the few black people who were into the style, music and culture. I loved how they worked some of their traditional stylings – cornrows for example into the dreaded hair popular with cyber goths. Plus deep jewel colours in makeup popular with goths look incredible on dark skin.

I think that is the main issue. Not many ethnic people are into that subculture, well not in the Uk anyway!

]]>By: oasisob1http://boingboing.net/2012/09/18/i-am-so-goth-i-was-born-bl.html#comment-1536211
Wed, 19 Sep 2012 19:19:00 +0000http://boingboing.net/?p=181844#comment-1536211I <3 Cocteau Twins!
]]>By: Sirkowskihttp://boingboing.net/2012/09/18/i-am-so-goth-i-was-born-bl.html#comment-1536186
Wed, 19 Sep 2012 18:50:00 +0000http://boingboing.net/?p=181844#comment-1536186It’s the post-modernist version of “NO FUN ALLOWED!”
]]>By: bigmike7http://boingboing.net/2012/09/18/i-am-so-goth-i-was-born-bl.html#comment-1536168
Wed, 19 Sep 2012 18:35:00 +0000http://boingboing.net/?p=181844#comment-1536168Oh, okay. I was thinking of USA.
]]>By: Heather Cristofarohttp://boingboing.net/2012/09/18/i-am-so-goth-i-was-born-bl.html#comment-1535893
Wed, 19 Sep 2012 15:12:00 +0000http://boingboing.net/?p=181844#comment-1535893I go to plenty of private and public gothic events in NYC and it’s a very diverse bag of people… and I haven’t seen any of them wear white makeup (honestly, after 8 years here I’ve never seen this) or emphasize being pale as prerequisite. The couple that we go with a lot are black, and they emphasize their dreads with gothic adornments, and wear amazing corseted clothing (one is a fashion designer). They’ve never expressed to me feelings of being excluded from “the scene” based on race. I’m not saying that racism doesn’t magically not permeate the goth scene too. Bigoted assholes are everywhere. But I would certainly say it’s not a movement towards caucasian-ness.

Most of us see the Nosferatu-paleness a fellow goth may present as a nod to the blood-starved/drained undead rather than being more… caucasian. I can’t emphasize that enough. It’s about lack of blood, death, decay, unhealthy and creepy doll-like mannerisms that center around presentations being purposefully uncomfortable or odd to look at. My friend Nadia (who is black) wears dramatic eyeshadow and actually darkens her cheekbones to appear this way.

People with gothic interests have been mislabeled/judged for years and from what I’ve seen they are incredibly accepting of any form of expression, race, religion, culture. In this nature of acceptance, it crosses over into the BDSM scene, so I’ve found it’s actually a really respectful environment. The only time I’ve suspected anything is more towards the metal/hardcore people, but I don’t go enough to those events to really know and I might be guilty myself of pre-judging based off a few of the more obnoxious voices (nothing is more repulsive than a Nazi fetish to me).

]]>By: dragonfroghttp://boingboing.net/2012/09/18/i-am-so-goth-i-was-born-bl.html#comment-1535833
Wed, 19 Sep 2012 14:31:00 +0000http://boingboing.net/?p=181844#comment-1535833Having read those two quoted sentences, I have filled my impenetrable sociology jargon quota for the day. Thanks.
]]>By: Ladyfingershttp://boingboing.net/2012/09/18/i-am-so-goth-i-was-born-bl.html#comment-1535819
Wed, 19 Sep 2012 14:21:00 +0000http://boingboing.net/?p=181844#comment-1535819Ex-African, now Australian “might-as-well” sort of goth here. The main administrators of the scene in my home town weren’t white, and the local scene is pretty dead but there are a few non-white members. There are racists in any scene, but it’s not a goth thing, as far as I know.

I can’t help feeling a tad perplexed that something is perceived of as racist just because it has a predominantly European aesthetic. I mean, it’s referencing Victorian horror tropes, which actually does leave a lot of room for African and Asian stuff too. If you can make your roots work for you in a cool-scary way, have at it. Someone mentioned Baron Samedi, which is a great example.

]]>By: Ladyfingershttp://boingboing.net/2012/09/18/i-am-so-goth-i-was-born-bl.html#comment-1535801
Wed, 19 Sep 2012 14:11:00 +0000http://boingboing.net/?p=181844#comment-1535801Very few skinny female goths in either of the cities’ scenes that I’ve been in, hence the gothic lady fixation with corsetry.
]]>By: Ladyfingershttp://boingboing.net/2012/09/18/i-am-so-goth-i-was-born-bl.html#comment-1535789
Wed, 19 Sep 2012 14:01:00 +0000http://boingboing.net/?p=181844#comment-1535789 So that leaves everyone exactly where when it comes to doing… anything?
]]>By: IronEdithKiddhttp://boingboing.net/2012/09/18/i-am-so-goth-i-was-born-bl.html#comment-1535737
Wed, 19 Sep 2012 12:48:00 +0000http://boingboing.net/?p=181844#comment-1535737Visit allmusic and dig a little deeper into 4AD artists. Personally, I never could abide Cocteau Twins. Always sounded like a cheap Dead Can Dance knock-off to me.
]]>By: TheMudsharkhttp://boingboing.net/2012/09/18/i-am-so-goth-i-was-born-bl.html#comment-1535727
Wed, 19 Sep 2012 12:08:00 +0000http://boingboing.net/?p=181844#comment-1535727Hot voodoo boobage even.
]]>By: blueelmhttp://boingboing.net/2012/09/18/i-am-so-goth-i-was-born-bl.html#comment-1535717
Wed, 19 Sep 2012 11:29:00 +0000http://boingboing.net/?p=181844#comment-1535717Being from where I am, a good number of my fellow goth leaning friends were of the brown “races” so I guess maybe though it has to do with location, time period, and also what *ideal* you strive for. I mean, we listened to a lot of Massive Attack and Tricky, which isn’t really old fashioned Goth… but then I wouldn’t have ever been caught in whiteface either. YMMV? Really in any subculture YMM *should* V. Think, for a second, of Morpheus as a goth icon and maybe my point becomes clear? When it comes into “breaking into” anything, screw it IMO. By the way, are there racist Goths? Oh yeah. And I bet they do a good job of making people feel like outcasts.

But anyone who bases their worldview only on the look is an asshole in the first place whether they’re a racist asshole or just a general asshole.

I’ll add to my statement though. In England it seems much more white. But I was attributing that to England being much more white, which might just be both my privilege and American cluelessness showing.

]]>By: andygateshttp://boingboing.net/2012/09/18/i-am-so-goth-i-was-born-bl.html#comment-1535713
Wed, 19 Sep 2012 11:08:00 +0000http://boingboing.net/?p=181844#comment-1535713Never seen a whiteface black goth in all my days. Seen a decent handful of black goths, who match the Tumblrs linked.

(Off-topic, we had a black LARPer playing Drow once, and he got told to black up – “man, that’s the first time I ain’t been black enough!” to general lols)

Tumblr (and its ilk) do a great job in filling the gaps that the mainstream counterculture media don’t – users doing that editors think there’s no market for.

Both are true, which leads to
1.) disaffected, disenfranchised, or disenchanted members of the majority population seek out or form sub- or counter-cultures that better suit their personality
2.) The market isn’t a moral force and will happily sell you your own chains. You know, for your plaid zipper punk pants. If there’s a market for something, then eventually someone shows up to supply that market, even if it’s tacky, or heralds your inevitable absorption back into the monoculture.

Then, of course, there’s the most lucrative demographic in the overlap of monoculture exiles and subculture enthusiasts: middle-class teenagers – whose income, after all, is almost 100% disposable.

]]>By: DataShadehttp://boingboing.net/2012/09/18/i-am-so-goth-i-was-born-bl.html#comment-1535681
Wed, 19 Sep 2012 07:35:00 +0000http://boingboing.net/?p=181844#comment-1535681I had to click a thumbs-up icon for your post, when really what I wanted to do was give you a three dollar star-on machine
]]>By: DataShadehttp://boingboing.net/2012/09/18/i-am-so-goth-i-was-born-bl.html#comment-1535680
Wed, 19 Sep 2012 07:32:00 +0000http://boingboing.net/?p=181844#comment-1535680But whiteface has a long and storied tradition in issues related to mortality, like the ever-popular, Resident Kabuki Theatre

]]>By: DataShadehttp://boingboing.net/2012/09/18/i-am-so-goth-i-was-born-bl.html#comment-1535679
Wed, 19 Sep 2012 07:30:00 +0000http://boingboing.net/?p=181844#comment-1535679I think there’s a rule, if there’re more than 10 people at least one is a bigot. I’ve only known, maybe 2 goths who were racists, but like 90% of the goths I’ve known have taken cattiness to art-form level. Remarks about dress-up disasters and bad hair days were rampant … I’ve heard a lot of comments along the lines of “fishnets or tanning both, pick one and stick with it,” so I guess it’s sort of a toss-up as to whether your acquaintance was a bigot, or just so hopelessly ignorant that she didn’t realize how racist that notion was.
]]>By: DataShadehttp://boingboing.net/2012/09/18/i-am-so-goth-i-was-born-bl.html#comment-1535673
Wed, 19 Sep 2012 07:10:00 +0000http://boingboing.net/?p=181844#comment-1535673swap -> “by not listening to what everyone else did.”
for –> “by listening to music from what appeared to be violent, dirty, white homeless children.”

Let’s be honest, if Everyone Else was happy with the punk/goth subcultures, no one would really want to be in them.