“A big stir around our circle recently has been a conversation/debate about what defines gender and who gets to decide,” posted Breitenbush Business Director Peter Moore, whose space has hosted the historic Lesbian event for the last thirty years. And the answer was “Men”. Men get to decide what lesbians do. Heterosexual Men get to decide when and where and how Lesbians get to gather and organize, and the decision these men have reached is: “never”. After this year’s event (contracts were signed prior to the decision to defer to anti-lesbian male rights activists) this historic lesbian event will no longer exist.

More from the Breitenbush missive:

“For this group of women, Breitenbush has for 30 years provided a refuge from their daily experience of a world dominated, passively or aggressively, by men. Their retreat has been a time to do what humans do in the wonders of nature when security and material needs are met—love, laugh, listen, share space, work out issues, play and generally go deeper together. To meet these women’s felt need for safety and sanctuary, people who have had all the privileges that come of being born male have been excluded.

In these women’s youth, lesbianism was classified as a form of mental illness, and gay and lesbian people who “came out” faced physical and emotional violence, marginalization, and loss of financial and family foundations, among other cruelties.

In human history, such women have been considered pariahs in mainstream society, but this generation of women fought back and chose a different path. These women chose Breitenbush as a place to meet and freely associate with other women having similar life experiences.

Today, many in this group face the same challenges that a majority of people in their dotage face. Yet they have one challenge that most aging people do not have. Once seen as pariahs of conventional society, now they are characterized by some as pariahs of the very movement they helped to initiate and build. Why? Because they choose to exclude anyone born male. And now, in the evolution of socio-cultural consciousness pertaining to the human right of gender equality, the leading edge is about self-statement of one’s gender, not birth assignment or any group identity that would exclude an individual regardless of their stated gender identity. The cause of transsexual people is described precisely by this evolution.”

Blood on the lesbian’s hands. The “piece of shit” lesbian. The blood of heterosexual white males. Because she desires the human right to gather with fellow lesbians in sisterhood at the hot springs in an annual weekend, in celebration and sisterhood, as lesbians, the same as they have done for thirty years. (This entire exchange is archived in the comment section below).

Will Radik, the white heterosexual male who persuaded other men that black lesbians “oppress” him, and who lobbied (successfully!) to eliminate the historic lesbian event, is best known previously for his one-man protest against the “All Jane No Dick” comedy tour. Although the tour included male “transwomen”, Radik/Raven protested that the inclusion in the advertising tagline the phrase “No dick” verbally discriminated against the honor of his penis (!). Unlike the male powers-that-be who run the Breitenbush Hot Springs, the female organizers of that event told him to go hush himself.

Previous anti-lesbian campaign by Will “raven Miranda” Radik

Do you believe that Lesbians should have the human right to hold gatherings and events with other Lesbians? Are you a lesbian? Are you an LGBT ally that supports the human rights of lesbians as female human beings to gather together at the hot springs as they see fit? Do you think it’s a bit creepy that heterosexual men are claiming that lesbians oppress them and that historic lesbian events must be eradicated because they hurt the feelings of males who wish to attend? Are Black Lesbians the oppressors of heterosexual white males?

How can a historic thirty-year lesbian event that means SO MUCH to the lives of the women attending be shit-canned by a handful of deranged straight white males concerned with Penis Pride? Holy shit!

Take a moment, hell, take five- and share your perspective with the Breitenbush Hot Springs management:

120 Responses to “Historic thirty year Lesbian Breitenbush “Women in the Woods” event eradicated by Transgender Activists because “lesbianism discriminates against males””

Karen Thompson · Top Commenter
This is one of the most a-historical pieces I have ever read.

As for Ms. Williams’ comments, it says all it needs to say that she has to reach back 40 years to find anything even vaguely involving radical feminists and violence towards trans women. In both instances, radical feminists ended the violence before anything occurred. Regardless, citing to one’s own writing as source material is not considered to be the most persuasive evidence. But let’s just consider these allegations, contextually, shall we?

Olivia was a successful lesbian separatist music collective because women were fully shut out of the music business. In the late 60s and early 70s, women weren’t *allowed* in recording studios unless they were singing, sucking dick, or being fucked by a dude. They definitely weren’t allowed to actually record. So when Ms. Stone states that Olivia’s music production folks “badly needed engineering skills” that is because females in the late 60s and 70s had NO ability, no chance, no how, to accrue those skills. They were full on foreclosed from getting them by sexism. Full stop.

Ms. Stone, when living as Zelig Ben-Nausaan in the late 60s, by virtue of NOT BEING PERCEIVED or living as a woman or female, was able to get into the Record Plant and serve as a record engineer for the Velvet Underground and Hendrix, things that no female at that time would have EVER been able to do. Full stop.

So the rage that women felt at having someone who had clearly received benefit and clear professional privilege from walking in the world as a heterosexual white guy; the rage at coming to OLIVIA with all that was tangible. And real. And god forbid we talk about the validity of that rage; cause god knows females aren’t supposed to be angry, and especially not about the by-products of sexism, right?

Context is everything.

Michigan has always been a female-only space, for “mothers of daughters, womyn-born-womyn,” which is what the actual language stated on the FIRST festival flyer, in 1976. A place where the violence towards and exclusion of dykes could be side stepped. I mean, funny how you neglect to mention any of the trans women who have attended and cheerfully blogged about that experience over the past ten years (yanno, current times) from Tobi Hill-Meyer, to Fallon Fox, Bryn Kelley and most notoriously, Alice Kalafarski, who went to a sexual assault survivors workshop at the festival and wrote about masturbating her penis! Totes a great idea, right?

Guess what? Oppressed people get to segregate themselves based on the specificity of their oppression. Period. Africans get to say no African Americans. African Americans get to say know to Caribbean blacks. Cubans get to go away from Puerto Ricans. Mexicans get to ding Dominicans. Deaf women get to say no to folks with Cochlear Implants. Trans women with GRS get to exclude non-op women. And females get to create spaces for females. Because we all have shit to deal with and we all need to put our own oxygen masks first. That is a little thing that we like to call survival under white supremacist patriarchy.

Unless you are actually saying that females aren’t oppressed BECAUSE of their biology and all the socialization that comes with that.

People who are oppressed? We don’t get to define how we are perceived. We might have all the reality of who we are, internally. But the very reason privilege is privilege is because we don’t get to define ourselves for ourselves. We don’t get to name ourselves. We are only pretext, we are only how we are perceived. Just ask Trayvon Martin or Tamir Rice. And part of creating separate spaces is to give ourselves context; with the people who most understand that context. and sometimes that is a broad brush, and sometimes that context is drawn with a brush that is very fine.

Let’s also look at the stats. Let’s talk about violence in the community. How many trans women have been murdered, kidnapped, stranger raped, or greviously injured by a radical feminist? Let’s use that same 40 year period that Ms. Williams had to dust off her way back machine for. Actually, heck, let’s just use all of human history for our timeline. Can you name one? Ya can’t. Because it hasn’t ever happened. Ever.

Let’s make it a little broader. How many trans women have been murdered, kidnapped, stranger raped, or greviously injured by females? And before you go to Chrissy Polis, the girls who assaulted her beat her because she had “talked to” one of the girls’ boyfriend; they didn’t even know she was trans at the time! That only came out AFTER the horrible assault because the asshole who filmed it, Vernon Hackett, posted the video on his FB page with comments outing her as trans. See attached. http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/mcdonalds/mcdonalds-employee-filmed-brutal-beating-640128

Besides, do you really want to go there with regard to violence and who is killing who? Because if we flip this equation? It isn’t cute. Cause hint, the number isn’t zero.

Since the beginning of this year, 8 trans women have been murdered. Five lesbians have been murdered or seriously injured as well, by the way. ALL OF THEM WERE KILLED OR HURT BY MALES. Each one.

So while you here trying to make this issue about radical feminists, who stand for the need, the desire, and the work to make this planet safe and violence free for ALL women, males are killing all of us. The silence around that truth? Thanks for making it louder.
Reply · · 17 · Edited · Yesterday at 10:39am

Miranda Brooke Raven · Top Commenter · Destroyer of Hope at Your Dreams · 121 followers
Karen Thompson I don’t waste time trying to argue with TERFs. It’s far past time for that and I’m sure we have fundamental differences in our ideas on sex/gender that are utterly incompatible. But you’re the oppressor along this particular axis so it’s not really my responsibility to make overtures or engage you in discourse.
Reply · · 9 · Yesterday at 12:14pm

Karen Thompson · Top Commenter
Miranda Brooke Raven, I didn’t ask you to argue with me. There is nothing to argue about re: my post as I simply recited several facts entirely missing from that “article.” You are entitled to your feelings about those facts, but your feelings cannot and do not change the truth of them.

What is obvious to me is when facts cannot be disputed, the inevitable end point is “DIE IN A FIRE,” of which “Eeeeeew, TERF!” is the schoolyard version.
Reply · · 8 · Yesterday at 12:28pm

Rosalynda Stone · Can opener at Whoop Ass
You piece of shit. There is literal blood on your hands. There is no “level of discourse.” Stop fucking killing us.
“Full stop.”
Dumbass.
Reply · · 1 · Yesterday at 1:19pm

Karen Thompson · Top Commenter
Rosalynda Stone, Please point me to a single instance of a radical feminist (or female) who has ever murdered, kidnapped, or stranger raped a trans woman. There actually is no blood drawn by those two classes of women, literally or metaphorically. That accusation is a lie. It diverts us from focusing on the actual location of violence and the perpetrators of violence, which is males.

All the slurs and name-calling in the world do not change that fact.

But since we are now heading to the inevitable ugliness and violence, I’m out.
Reply · · 8 · Edited · Yesterday at 1:23pm

Miranda Brooke Raven · Top Commenter · Destroyer of Hope at Your Dreams · 121 followers
Karen Thompson I see we’re going to completely ignore systemic violence? Regardless of whether there is documented direct violence or not (insisting on such documentation in a society which is incredibly hostile to us is laughable, btw) that doesn’t mean direct violence hasn’t taken place and it sure as hell doesn’t mean that systemic violence isn’t a thing because it most certainly is and you’re taking part in it right now.
Reply · · 5 · Yesterday at 1:27pm

Karen Thompson · Top Commenter
Miranda Brooke Raven, Systemic violence takes form *through* physical violence; its not about ignoring it, it IS *it*. That is precisely what makes people oppressed; living constantly in the fear of being hurt. I agree fully that “systemic violence is a thing.” I’m just saying it is coming from a very specific direction and aimed at very specific classes of people, including females and clearly including trans women.

That documentation of direct violence isn’t laughable at all and quite frankly it is disingenuous to say that it isn’t documented. Every trans day of remembrance does just that. I can provide you very quickly with the names of the 8 trans women (in the US!) we know that were killed this year. None of them were killed by females. I am saying name the problem.

Regardless, as we all are aware, other forms of systemic power require the exertion of power over through actual structures of power. If you are arguing that females have structural power to oppress, I don’t agree with you. That would mean that females have the power to decide their own bodily autonomy and that of others (which they don’t), the ability to decide when and where to reproduce for themselves and others (which they don’t), the ability to obtain equal pay for equal work for themselves and others (which they don’t), equal representation in government (which they don’t)…etc. ad nauseum.

There are individual females who are prejudiced asses. There are individual females who have the ability to kick someone out of an apartment. You’ll have to show me how females actually benefit from trans women’s oppression when the oppression trans women face is either from being perceived as women, or being perceived as gender non-conforming women. The latter is true for butch dykes and all gender non conforming females who aren’t trans.

It also assumes that females do not face dramatic levels of physical violence at the hands of males, which they do.

There is literally no violence being enacted here unless my mere typing of my thoughts and my own lived reality is violence just by being spoken.
Reply · · 6 · Yesterday at 1:46pm

Rosalynda Stone · Can opener at Whoop Ass
Back there where you said “I’m out” cause the mean nasty trans people were damaging your tender sensibilities? That was the end of the conversation.
Reply · · Yesterday at 1:53pm

Jessica Trigueiro · Portland State University
Karen Thompson When you dead name trans women, like you did in your OP, that is you enacting systemic violence. Deadnaming is meant to make a trans person seem less real and stoke the fire of transphobic tendencies in cis people.
Reply · · 3 · Yesterday at 3:33pm

Jessica Trigueiro · Portland State University
Lea Schmia Something can be true and still be used as way to enact violence. Bringing up stigmatizing information about someone is one of the ways that happens. That’s what Karen Thompson did.
Reply · · 2 · Yesterday at 5:47pm

Miranda Brooke Raven · Top Commenter · Destroyer of Hope at Your Dreams · 121 followers
Karen Thompson Systemic violence is every single time a trans woman is misgendered or deadnamed, every time a news report shows a trans woman putting on makeup, every time a cis man plays a trans woman in a movie or tv, every time someone outs a trans woman, every time we’re silenced cis peoeple who are living without the intense hostility we feel every day, every time someone is gendered by their genitals, every time a baby is assigned a sex at birth, every time someone reinforces the gender binary or gender norms, every time a trans person is denied medical care, every time a trans woman is appraised with dropping performance ratings and then fired, every time someonedrives by one of us on the street and yells “faggot!”, every time a man looks up his nose at us as if we asked his opinion on our appearance or gender, every time a trans woman is denied access to a space for women, etc. etc. etc. That is all systemic violence. And yes you’re participating in it here, too.
Reply · · 3 · Edited · Yesterday at 6:06pm

Maureen Master
Karen, thank you for injecting much needed facts and context into this discussion. The level of discourse is truly atrocious. The fact that you can remain so civil, fact-based and level-headed in spite of comments like “you piece of shit. Go fuck yourself” is impressive. Who considers name-calling convincing argumentation? And how is it that “dead naming” is considered an act of monumental violence by people who say things like, “Die in a fire TERF”? Thanks again for your comments.
Reply · · 4 · Yesterday at 7:25pm

Karen Thompson · Top Commenter
Jessica Trigueiro, that information was literally a quote from Ms. Stone’s biography for the European Graduate School, where she teaches/taught. Is she enacting systemic violence against herself by acknowledging her, I dunno, LIFE? Is it “dead naming” when you call yourself by your prior name? Publicly??

Also, what a very convenient way to ignore the ways that privilege flows and changes throughout our lives and to interrogate how it informs our socialization and opportunity. What an interesting way to force people to ignore the reality of what it means to be *perceived* as a straight, white man in the United States. Now the mere acknowledgement of the specificity of privilege (which could not be any more clear in Ms. Stone’s case) is being contorted to be construed as violence.

I don’t think that word means what you think it does. I reject that definition in this instance and based on the validity of my own lived experience and personal knowledge.
Reply · · 4 · Edited · 22 hours ago

Karen Thompson · Top Commenter
Miranda Brooke Raven, you realize that a central tenet to radical feminist thought is that gender norms are a dangerous and debilitating system and that their enforcement by patriarchy and assignment based on sex is a nightmare for everyone alive, right? Like, that affects everyone and we agree that it is a horror.

I am very aware of what systemic violence is, thank you very much. Statistically, me and the males in my family are actually *more* likely to experience it than you, a white trans woman. But one thing that is true for both of us? The chances of us losing our lives at the hands of a radical feminist or female are slim to none.

3/4 of what you said up there are things done to trans women by *males*. Trust, females aren’t the ones running hollywood studios and financing films. Definitely not black ones. And, for the record, the only showrunners in Hollywood right now getting that trans women should tell trans women’s stories are Jenji Kohan (OITNB, Laverne Cox) and Jill Soloway (Transparent, Alexandra Billings). Dykes aren’t calling anyone faggots; the people yelling faggots are usually the same people slipping us roofies and trying to rape us.

Since everyone on the planet has a sex, I’m not sure how that is a uniquely trans experience. I’m not sure how one can be “assigned” a sex (unless one is actually intersex, which the vast majority of trans women are not) any more than I can be “assigned” being black. I am female and I am black. Just because those categories have fuzzy edges don’t mean they aren’t categories.

What I find intolerable is the amount of violence leveled at trans women in our society and the safety concerns implicated by the very real issues around physical safety. But apparently, that takes a back seat to dyke blaming.

Finally, I’m not sure what spaces are being denied you by radical feminists or lesbians, I’m just not sure what you are referring to. Especially given the fact that trans women go to Michigan every year. Regardless, not being able to go camping for a week in August is not oppression. It just isn’t.
Reply · · 5 · Edited · 22 hours ago

Rosalynda Stone · Can opener at Whoop Ass
You go on with your peaceful trans exclusionary discourse then. It’s clear that no amount of prying will dislodge a TERF head from her ass, but happily, you are right about one thing: You aren’t making much of a difference in trans lives. Turds like you have been circling the drain into irrelevance for decades.
Reply · · 21 hours ago

Toni Coughlin · Top Commenter · Cottage Grove High School
Karen Thompson … one of the “facts” that you recited was an assertion that oppressed groups get to segregate themselves, even from less-privileged subgroups. Well, congratulations: you just endorsed white women excluding black women, straight women excluding lesbian women, and cis women excluding trans women. In my opinion, you are a bad person.

Female and trans woman are not mutually exclusive. Ex] I’m employed in an all-Female workforce because my Female status has been confirmed, every step of the way (from recruiter to HR manager to supervisor).
Reply · · 4 · 18 hours ago

Cause self-segregation is an important tool that has to be used to learn, to teach, and to recover; that is important for everyone. White women get to exclude me when they have their own work to do. Straight women get to exclude me when they have their own work to do. Females get to exclude trans women. Trans women with GRS get to exclude non-op women. *Oppression* is the key through line here; *oppressed* groups get to recover from their own *oppression*. And all groups, all of them, get to self-segregate to figure out where and when they enter.

“And at a few schools, students and faculty members are starting white affinity groups, where they tackle issues of white privilege, often in all-white settings. The groups have sprung from an idea that whites should not rely on their black, Asian or Latino peers to educate them about racism and white dominance.

“In the past, there was a tendency to think: This isn’t my problem and it isn’t something I need to deal with because it isn’t something I even think a lot about,” said Louisa Grenham, a white senior at Brooklyn Friends School and a member of a white affinity group there.”

NOT RACIST.

If all trans women where female, as you assert, then we would all be “cis”. That would kinda fuck with the politics being expressed in this thread, wouldn’t it?
Reply · · 3 · Edited · 13 hours ago

Jessica Trigueiro · Portland State University
Karen Thompson I mean if you’re not going to recognize what deadnaming does to trans people, then there’s nothing I can do for you. Even if her dead name is publicly available it is still wrong and stigmatizing to bring it up, and yes does tie into structural/institutional/systemic (all synonyms) violence. You were definitely trying to use institutions to try to hurt a trans woman.
Reply · · 1 · 13 hours ago

Karen Thompson · Top Commenter
Jessica Trigueiro, by stigmatizing, you mean talking about the access and privilege Ms. Stone experienced based upon her moving through the world being perceived as a white, heterosexual male? She talked her way into the studio and slept there on the floor, something a female literally could not have done at the time. You are saying it is violence to point out when someone is the recipient and beneficiary of white, heterosexual, male privilege?

How is it stigma to talk about one’s own life experience? How can you be stigmatized by yourself? She is not being outed. This is information Ms. Stone speaks of often. How is this stigma?

This is not about Ms. Stone. This is about making it impossible to talk about the distinctions of socialization and lived experience between trans women and females.

You’re right that people also marginalized by race are more likely to face this violence. Look how many trans women of color we’ve lost already this year. That blood is on your hands, too.
Reply · · 1 · 10 hours ago

Geneva Kachman · Top Commenter
Karen Thompson Yes, let us note that the tactic of school children, who have very little arguing skills, impulse control, or maturity, is being used here – name-calling. One word. TERF. Oh, and also “ewww,” which is similiarly childish. Karen Thompson, I appreciate your thoughtful passionate WELL-ARGUED cogent comment.
Reply · · 3 · 9 hours ago

Dana Taylor · Top Commenter · Ethical Hacker at Network Infiltration Group
Just addressing one point. It was during the attack that they learned Polis was a trans woman. Not after it was over. That seems to be what escalated the attack. One of the attackers plead guilty to it being a hate crime and if at the time she didn’t know, this wouldn’t have happened.
Reply · · 8 hours ago

Emma Naclerio · BEE at The Trap
Karen Thompson thanks for admitting to punching down? And your appraisal of Ms. Stone’s time at Olivia is completely misguided. Ms. Stone was very much welcomed by those of the collective, and received undue bullying from a very vocal minority of feminiss. She was even trying to start a program at the time to teach audio production skills to women, but then she started receiving death threats. She did not leave because a rational argument was presented as to why she shouldn’t be a part of olivia, she left because she feared for her life. That’s not good-faith discourse at all, that’s violence, that’s injustice, that’s bigotry, “full stop” to put in in your words.

To all the TERFs in the room: the reason folks like Miranda Brooke Raven are responding to you in such a low level of discourse is because that is the level of discourse with which you have started. All that is presented are points that have been refuted countless times by mainstream feminists, just because you have presented them for the umpteenth time does not mean that they deserve a response. It’s PRATTling, you all have been PRATTling on for the last 20 years on the same points and people no longer care about addressing your points anymore because that would mean that they are being regarded as legitimate in the first place. Like seriously, it’s 2015, time to move on.
Reply · · 6 hours ago

Karen Thompson · Top Commenter
Miranda Brooke Raven, re “galloping text walls,” you have no idea how many words I have in me. And if tl:dr is all you can hold, know this: I know what oppresses me. And fanciful fabrications to deflect attention from who actually has a boot up my ass and who is truly trying to take me and the collective ass of the female sex class out are not gonna work. Repetition doesn’t dismantle the truth, just obscures it. And I am clear.

I am also not here to pretend about the recipients and perpetrators of violence. And neither was Sylvia Rivera, but funny how we ignore her when *she* calls out her actual oppressor. Does that makes her a TERF? See: https://vimeo.com/45479858 (listen up at 1:56…and listen up again at 3:27.) See, Ms. Rivera? That’s my girl right there. I would go to hell and back for her because she understo… See More
Reply · · 3 · Edited · 5 hours ago

Karen Thompson · Top Commenter
Emma Naclerio, I wasn’t appraising Stone’s time at Olivia. I was appraising how she GOT to Olivia and why, perchance, folks might have been hot about it.

I actually am talking at a very high level of discourse. And the response has been a litany of ad hominen attacks with nothing to say about what I actually said.

What happens when we try these conversations in the light of day–which never gets to happen, its like Scientology that way–is that we don’t have the conversation. Ever. Publicly.

We don’t talk about the issues. We never do in the light of day. Even though there are so many conversations to have; so many unsettled questions. And because folks like Miranda don’t actually want to talk about the actual issues underscoring the bigger questions about space, etc., “TERFs” and anyone who falls into that pot, which is anyone who doesn’t agree, trans or not, woman or not…they no platform. They say this has been discussed. They silence trans women who don’t agree with them. They don’t have spaces or places where people can actually dialogue.

Did you, Emma Naclerio, support the trans women who put on the New Narratives conference last year? https://newnarratives2014.wordpress.com/ Did you facilitate getting trans women in a room to talk through different perspectives ? Or did you try to shut it down? Are those trans women the wrong kind because they smell awful TERFy?
Reply · · 1 · Edited · 5 hours ago

Emma Naclerio · BEE at The Trap
Karen Thompson “I’m actually talking at a very high level of discourse”

…maybe 20 years ago? It’s moved on. Please move along. We’ve talked about the issues, we’ve retalked about the issues, we’ve beaten the dead horse and have turned it into finely ground horseburgers. Just because you hold on to a standpoint that’s been refuted ad nauseum doesn’t mean it’s legitimate.

I know you’ve seen this argument thousands of times discussed to every last point, so you holding these arguments back up like they’ve never been discussed before is not only dishonest but disingenuous at this point. It’s PRATTling, and the sane world has seen it as such for years now. Please stop screaming at windmills and join us in the present.
Reply · · 4 hours ago

Emma Naclerio · BEE at The Trap
Karen Thompson “What happens when we try these conversations in the light of day–which never gets to happen, its like Scientology that way–is that we don’t have the conversation. Ever. Publicly. ”

Karen Thompson · Top Commenter
Dana Taylor, not true. By Chrissy Polis’ own words and account to the Baltimore Sun:

“”I went to go use the bathroom. Come back out, the girl spit in my face, said, ‘Are you trying to talk to my man?’ I said, ‘No, I didn’t even know that was your man at all.’ The other girl came up, spit in my face, then they started ripping my hair, throwing me on the floor,” Polis told The Baltimore Sun.

“They just seemed like they wanted to pick a fight that night, they really did. And come to find out that girl was only 14-years-old. I was shocked,” she said. “They kicked me in my face; they really hurt me really bad and I’m just afraid to go outside now because of stuff like this.”

In the video of the beating the two girls repeatedly call her “she,” “her” and “bitch.” Now if they were beating her because she was trans, do you think they would have taken the time to honor her preferred gender pronouns?

Karen Thompson · Top Commenter
Emma Naclerio, hookay. Who is the we? Also, clearly we haven’t moved on, so why would we stop talking about it? *I* didn’t write this totally inaccurate article, but you didn’t have anything to say to the author about rehashing?
Reply · · 1 · Edited · 2 hours ago

Karen Thompson · Top Commenter
Emma Naclerio, again…did you help out the trans women who put together the New Narratives conference? Who most definitely are trying to have new conversations about all of this stuff?

::crickets::

Its just old and stale if it doesn’t agree, right?
Reply · · 1 · 2 hours ago

Karen Thompson · Top Commenter
Emma Naclerio, and yet no one has offered a single explanation of what I’m wrong about. Everyone has just thrown insults about my person, not my arguments. So thumbnail it for me. Prattle is easy enough to dismantle, right?
Reply · · 1 · 2 hours ago

Felon Evans · Top Commenter · The Ohio State University
Actually, if Karen’s viewpoints were so very outdated and wrong, you wouldn’t need to respond to them, much less respond with few facts and name-calling (listening to people call women TERFS is a lot like listening to Rush Limbaugh use the term Feminazis.)

What we’re all immersed in are some specific value differences. We all agree that transpeople need to be safe and are entitled to full human rights. We should all agree that bio-women need to be safe and are entitled to full human rights. This should be where we support one another.

I worry about the violence aimed at transpeople. I worry about the violence aimed at females (3 women a day die due to domestic violence by males). This should be where we support one another.

If Women in america, feminsits in america, and lesbians in america are not in charge of any of the deep structural systems that create and replicate oppressions, which they are not, why are you then aiming your rhetorical guns at us so misguidedly?

Here’s what it leads me to think:

1) you don’t understand real oppression. (While I don’t think this is true, there does seem to be a ‘more oppressed than thou’ thread running thru these comments. A movement built on oppression olympics will wear out its welcome sooner rather than later, so I’m hoping that some of y’all realize who does you the most harm. And turning on bio-women who suffer under the same systems of oppressions as you do doesn’t bode well for convincing people that you have placed your oppression in any kind of historical perspective.

2) It is far easier to argue with lesbians, radical feminists and bio-women than the CEOs, male rapists, conservative churches, racists and the Rick Perry’s of the world- the people who want to make lesbians, women and transpeople disappear from the face of the earth. Unless you don’t see them as your enemy. Instead you are pointing at a Black woman who is challenging hisrotical accuracy in an article and saying SHE is the one with blood on her hands?

3) New movements, historically speaking, tend to be really didactic and passionate, rather than nuanced and strategic. Movements, like people, have to mature or they burn out. There is an echo chamber effect. One person goes all Fox News and yells ‘TERF’ and then a bunch of people pile on. It’s like listening to conservative talk radio. Dreary and predictable and so unworthy of an intelligent discussion. Where are your people who are engaging in a reasoned way, challenging AND building bridges? Until there is air space for that, for those people as well as those who are not invested in acting like nails looking for hammers, then the movement will not mature much. And you will continue to aim wildly at anything that moves. Ideas, especially ideas about human rights and movements, mature when they are challenged- not when they are rubber stamped.

4) We have so much common ground. Trans women and bio-women should be engaged in fighting misogyny together. We also have differences- and we have a choice what to do with those difference. We can form them into a hierarchy (conservative approach), erase the differences (liberal approach) or explore and honor difference (radical approach.) Real bonds and coalitions are formed when we honor difference, and engage in respectful ways

Agree or disagree with Karen, she’s engaging you in a respectful way. That’s a gift. You have choices here- some of you will be too inexperienced in movement building to understand what that means. Hopefully, some of you are not.
Reply · · 1 · 36 minutes ago

Cristan Williams · Top Commenter · 353 followers
To be clear, TERFs didn’t weren’t just shitty to Stone, they threatened to kill all the RadFem women of Olivia unless they become trans exclusionary and even showed up armed to an an Olivia event to murder Stone, but was disarmed by Olivia security:http://www.transadvocate.com/terf-violence-and-sandy-stone_n_14360.htm

Felon Evans · Top Commenter · The Ohio State University
Bullshit. And seriously, using the term TERF? that is sooo Fox News-like.
Reply · · 2 · 3 hours ago

Felon Evans · Top Commenter · The Ohio State University
Cristan- do you consider doxxing violent? Because didn’t you do that on your site? And didn’t the pic get taken down because it was acknowledged as a case of doxxing? I abhor violence- no matter who does it.
Reply · · 1 · 28 minutes ago

Cristan Williams · Top Commenter · 353 followers
Felon Evans Yes, because TERFs do not speak for RadFems. TERFs are proscriptive sex essentialists who hold a profound faith in the idea of a sex binary. According to the RadFem analysis of folks from Witting to Dworkin, those beliefs are patriarchal BS.
Reply · · 12 minutes ago

Miranda Brooke Raven · Top Commenter · Destroyer of Hope at Your Dreams · 121 followers
I feel that this piece is embracing hate and disregarding the spirit of true shared freedom and wonder in the togetherness of the Moon Goddess and it makes my uterus very unhappy.
Reply · · 4 · February 20 at 11:52pm

Miranda Brooke Raven · Top Commenter · Destroyer of Hope at Your Dreams · 121 followers
Well first babby has a gender, which comes from the Great Mother and is bathed in the Hot Fountains of Gender at the Center of the Universe. Then this babby receives a magical gender stamp which follows it through metaphysical spacetime.
Reply · · 1 · Yesterday at 1:12pm

Felon Evans · Top Commenter · The Ohio State University
Miranda Brooke Raven I’m sorry you’ve been so hurt. Gender is a fucking bomb that is thrown at all of us.
Reply · · 36 minutes ago

Elle Zober · Portland, Oregon
Karen Thompson and Leela Ginelle…… I truly appreciate both of your well thought out, well informed and well presented articles/comment. As with anything, dialogue is the center of change. If we all unplug from the conversation while throwing insults into the ring then we’re nothing but a bunch of live wires, writhing, twisting and sparking at people who will stay away from us. I have learned a great deal in the past few days as this dialogue has unfolded. Some things I like… and quite a few that I don’t. What I have taken away hasn’t changed my viewpoint, as I view all women as women. I don’t have …. steps? stages? midpoints? An affirmed female is just as much female as I am to my mind. However, I have learned from conversations within my own community, and from this current dialogue, that not everyone feels that… See More
Reply · · 1 · 6 hours ago

I actually think the comments section went relatively well on that one. It’s crazy to me how batshit trans activists always seem when placed directly next to the clear, well-written comments of trans-critical feminists. It’s truly like putting middle schoolers in a debate with grad students.

“Systemic violence is…every time a news report shows a trans woman putting on makeup, every time a cis man plays a trans woman in a movie or tv…every time a baby is assigned a sex at birth…every time a trans woman is denied access to a space for women, etc. etc. etc. That is all systemic violence. And yes you’re participating in it here, too.”

As was pointed out: so according to trans activists, that stuff is all violence but saying, “Die in a fire TERF” isnt? But they don’t have any male privilege, oh nooo.

I think drag is systemic violence against women, in that the symbolic disqualification of women–the way in which our experiences are un-sayable within patriarchal symbolic systems–is a real thing that really harms women.

Here’s a good article on drag from a radfem perspective, if you’re interested: tinyurl.com/onlanju

BUT the actual fact is that drag operates as systemic violence in the context of the material oppression of women… men are not oppressed, and capitalism doesn’t exactly run on the extraction of resources from trans people, so your point still stands that trans people aren’t subject to systemic violence (if we understand that to be equivalent to oppression, not just “systemically don’t get what they want”).

Ms. Mag: A necessary correction: the comments you posted have nothing to do with the Women in the Woods issue. My comments were in response to an article called “Cis Women Only Space: A History of Anti-Trans Discrimination.”

There was the original PQMonthly post on the Breitenbush Women in the Woods issue, followed by the Transgender response to that post, which is what you commented on. The ‘Cis Women Only Space’ piece was a direct response to the Women in the Woods piece.

Further, in comments you were personally attacked by the man who is spearheading the attack on Women in The Woods. That is why his comments to you were quoted in the piece. I archived the whole thread in comments here so women could read the whole back-and-forth in context, should they so choose.

Sorry if the post was somehow unclear?

I really wanted to do a post supporting the Women in the Woods but had very little time to do so. I won’t claim that this is my best piece, but my choice was to do an imperfect post: or nothing. I chose the former.

You said: “Today Radik/Raven scolded a ‘Women in the Woods’ participant, black lesbian Karen Thompson, on PQMonthly: “You’re the Oppressor!” he stated.” I’m not a WITW participant, and that is not why I responded to the article.

Maybe from now on events like this need to be organized by invitation only, or by invite from members. That’s how the male-only clubs do it. Unfortunately, that excludes a lot of women who are new to an area or just coming out. But I don’t know how we can congregate anymore in this atmosphere. Noticed recently that male only preserves like Mount Athos in Greece get UNESCO protection. But of course women never get that for their spaces.

That is really sad. Guys with lesbian fetishes, even the ones too lazy to crossdress want to be able to police women in social spaces. They have such contempt for actual women, some of these guys watch too much porn and assume that the gay women will be like the gay men at retreats.

I cant imagine women wanting to be raped in the woods, where so many woman’s bodies are found strangled and dumped after after a sexual assault. I wonder if they are hurting for money? Now lazy-rapists have a hunting ground in the last days of women still having the right to meet together without men. It just takes one rape /murder of an actual women, and the trans activists/ man’s activists declairing that it was woman on women rape/murder and normally the transperson gets killed…[cue.man that looks like lurch in hooker make up to do bambi- blinks with dollar-store lashes to demonstrate woman-nesss to seem more innocent of male on female violence.]

By time the swinger crowd gets wind of men allowed, it will be full of men looking for women, couples with a crossdressing male unicorn-hunting, and men that have the right to piss, jack-off, dig up latrines made by past lesbians[warning, some men with certain types of woman-fetishes are known to move-in there too].

Torches and pitchforks time. I’m sick to death of this bullshit. And it is BULLshit, not cowshit that I am sick of. I’ve already written to the venue, I will call often. I don’t know what else to do, unless it’s torches and pitchforks. And I’m going to to the garage to sharpen up my pitchfork. Now.

Women are not permitted righteous rage. Only persons who are recognized as fully human can express rage.

When we, women, painstakingly explain how we are being hurt, harmed, pushed to the limit, we are ignored. Ignored, but not left in peace.

When we react to being ignored, silenced, erased, abused, invaded — when we react with human emotions such as indignation, passion, rage — we are invalidated. Worse than that: men will use our emotional responses to violence to retroactively justify their own violence.

Men created this no-win for women. “Transwomen,” being particularly virulent forms of patriarchal manhood, have a lot of fun with this impossible situation for women. Even more fun if the women they abuse experience multiple oppressions — how extra-good it must feel to call a black lesbian a “piece of shit.” They feed off of women’s pain … off of women’s frustrations and psychic agonies. They ARE ghouls.

I wonder if men burned so many women because a few enraged women, not knowing what else to do to protect themselves and their daughters, picked up pitchforks.

I.just.can’t.
I will call an send an email.
Why do we care if we are “killing them”? Seriously. If women being together one day makes them want to die, well, maybe it’s better off that they just do it already.

I know these guys are scary, but at what point should we ask women to say NO and mean it? Since when do white men matter more than sisters? Maybe there is more push back than I am seeing from the outside, I just cannot believe that the same women that fought so hard for their rights would give in to these perverts.

I knew that dipshit would get a Male Power Boner™ from this comment. The other day I had to laugh cuz I read a comment where he said “back when I was stronger than like 95% of cis men…” I about died laughing. No one talks like that except sad little het betas who got beat up by guys and rejected by girls in high school.

I hope the Breitenbush will be boycotted by all born women and that it will be possible to find another venue for Women in the Woods. Their gender policy make it de facto unsafe for women. There is no way I would share a sauna or any other traditionally sex segregated rooms with born males and feel safe. They have posted on their website:

“Men’s and women’s bathhouses serve the needs of campers and those in cabins without bathrooms.”
How is that going to work?

If they are consistent, they should make it clear for every mothers that this could mean having their 6 yo daughter running into a male penis in the bathhouses. For husbands that their wife have to share intimate spaces with heterosexual males…
Their website should have a disclaimer:
“In accordance with our gender policy, all our traditionally sex segregated spaces are now non-existant: your daughters (infant, child, teenage) and your heterosexual and homosexual female partners and women with PTSD due to sexual violence, are forced to share these spaces with any heterosexual and homosexual penis bearing person if this person says it is female. ”

And this make me think that I often have to book venues for events and I will ask their policy from then on. And so should everybody. As well, from now on, I will ask all the charitable organizations I contribute to what is their gender policy. In my experience, most of the organizational heavy lifting for events is done by women to begin with. If we start shaking that tree and clearly indicate that we want sex segregated bathrooms and others spaces, I bet it wont take long for them to feel the economic pains. Its push back time.

Breitenbush is clothing optional and mixed sex, like a nudist colony but clothing optional only in the sauna and pool. I’ve been there many times, never felt unsafe.
However Breitenbush are being absolute assholes, this event is popular with older and elderly lesbians, it’s affordable, meals are great and there are cabins. But now these women have to put up with creepy men cause only a creepy man is going to force elderly lesbians to look at his dick. What’s outrageous is they have men only events, like the Radical Faeries, but women have to accept any man who feels like a lesbian.

That’s why I think he’d be a great addition to any party. “Everyone, stop drinking, stop dancing, stop laughing. People are suffering somewhere in this world. Have some respect!”

I was thinking about this doofus earlier in relation to how religious people who see sin in everyone else are often themselves the biggest sinners. I think this applies to secular groups too. I bet Radik’s closet is stuffed full of skeletons.

Good grief, Barbara Holm, grow a pair of ovaries and tell this sanctimonious asswipe to shut the fuck up. Radik’s just pissed because he was born without a female form and he’s taking it out on you and all other women. Barbara, go dance your butt off and have a lovely time doing it!

There are lots of these women’s retreats… I personally know of three and get regular notices since attending years ago.

And they have all gone “underground” due to this kind of thing. As of last year, we got invitations saying, “by invitation only, do not send this email around please”–and before, it was “invite everyone you know”….

Just sayin.

And like Karen Thompson says above: Everyone knows WHY… but nobody will have “the conversation” about it, out of fear.

When I first saw this, I thought maybe Breitenbush is trying not to run afoul of whatever craptastic gender identity laws Oregon has in place.

In Washington state, it would be illegal for that venue to refuse to allow trans women’s peens in women’s facilities, even nudity-encouraged saunas and hot tubs. I don’t know how Washington state would handle a private event at a venue, if only the organizers of the event could be held liable, or if the venue could as well, but I wouldn’t entirely blame a business for being wary of lawsuits and government sanctions. And, if anything, Portland is far deeper in the gendercrap than Seattle.

But, according to my research, Oregon doesn’t yet extend gender identity protections to sex-segregated facilities. Breitenbush doesn’t have any excuse other than caving to men and/or following through with its own misogyny and lesbophobia.

It appears Titles VII and IX both are already being interpreted to include sex segregated facilities.

For Title VII, the Department of Justice in December of last year stated that gender identity is included in the prohibition against sex discrimination. (This alligns with the Mia Macy decision by the EEOC in 2012.)

For Title IX, the inclusion of gender identity as a part of sex discrimination was included on page 5 of a Department of the Education (DOE) document entitled “Questions and Answers on Title IX and Sexual Violence”:

“Title IX’s sex discrimination prohibition extends to claims of discrimination based on gender identity or failure to conform to stereotypical notions of masculinity or femininity and OCR accepts such complaints for investigation.”

One can see in settlements with the Downey, California and Azuza, California school districts that DOE believes this includes sex segregated facilities. From the Downey settlement:

“Continue to treat the student the same as other female students in all respects in the education programs and activities offered by the District, including access to sex-designated facilities for female students…”

1. provide the Student access to sex-specific facilities designated for male students at school consistent with his gender identity; however, the Student may request access to private facilities based on privacy, safety, or other concerns;
2. provide the Student access to sex-specific facilities. designated for male students at all District-sponsored activities, including overnight events and extracurricular activities on and off campus, consistent with his gender identity; however, the Student may request access to private facilities based on privacy, safety, or other concerns;
3. treat the Student the same as other male students in all respects in the education programs and activities offered by the District…

HUD issued a statement that shelters have to accept a man’s say so if he claims to be a woman.

“For temporary, emergency shelters with shared sleeping areas or bathrooms, the Equal Access Rule permits shelter providers to ask potential clients and current clients seeking a new
assignment their sex.

Best practices suggest that where the provider is uncertain of the client’s sex or gender identity, the provider simply informs the client or potential client that the agency provides shelter based on the gender with which the individual identifies. There generally is no legitimate reason in this context for the provider to request documentation of a person’s sex inorder to determine appropriate placement, nor should the provider have any basis to deny access to a single-sex emergency shelter or facility solely because the provider possesses identity documents indicating a sex different than the gender with which the client or potential client identifies. The provider may not ask questions or otherwise seek information or documentation concerning the person’s anatomy or medical history. Nor may the provider consider the client or potential client ineligible for an emergency shelter or other facility because his or her appearance or behavior does not conform to gender stereotype”

If Hillary Clinton is the 2016 Democratic nominee for President…well she, as Secretary of State, lead the changing of the rules that made changing gender markers on passports much easier. Those changed standards are now also used in the Veterans Administration and the Social Security Administration.

She’s not going to roll back any of this — not with the Department of State, HUD, VA or SSA. She’ll probably move things even farther.

Even if it’s not Hillary Clinton, no Democratic candidate is going roll anything back on what’s been put into policy and regulations on “gender identity” if she or he is elected President.

So if someone is a one issue voter on sex/gender identity, it’d come down to whether sex issues — such as having more pharmacists (and businesses) being able to tell you they won’t fill (or even cover in the first place) that birth control prescription because it violates their conscience — or gender identity issues — such as who’s allowed in sex segregated spaces — is the more important set of issues to vote on.

This is terrifying. I cannot believe that men can just waltz into spaces for vulnerable women. The DSM classes trans as mentally ill, so this means they are not just OK with pushing MEN into our spaces, but mentally ill ones at that (I know mental illness doesn’t mean a woman is violent, but mentally ill men are scary as fuck.)

And where’s the push back? It’s like women don’t even know what’s happening, and those that do, dont grasp how bad it is. I can only assume that no one is protesting (outside of those here) because vulnerable women are the most marginalized, thus the most expendable, and those with the least rights.

Cuz if they do protest as so many of us have, over the years, they will be censored, told to shut up, no platformed , threatened and villified. The trans crowd is very organized and very nasty with alot of allies and momentum at this point. It rather shocks me how far they have come in a relatively short time. But then they ARE men or allied WITH men!!!

Reblogged this on FeistyAmazon and commented:
To no end..this shit pisses me off! Men DICKtating to us Lesbians who we should have sex with, where and with whom we should gather, and d3nying us what they have taken so for granted with their tons and tons of boys only clubs. If they dont get to see watch and fuck Lesbians lije they see in fake “lesbian” porn..if tgey dobt get to be center stage and included when Lesbian WOMYN/ DykeAmazons gather, instead of creating THEIR OWN events or trans only biys who will be girls or any gender events..they are completely bent on DESTROYING OURS AND EVERY REMNANT OF LESBUAN/DYKEAMAZON CULTURE!!!

Has this been done before? YES! Wgmgen tge Castrati slowly took over the place of womyn Priestesses in tge Ancient Goddess Temples eventually replacing them altogether. Eunuchs guarded the harems as they have become the guardians of us Wild Free Lesbians…the freest and most autonomous womyn on the planet when we are away from MEN….whether past, present or future males…

I have had ENOUGH of these men who think theyre women..but in EVERY way they prove THEY ARE NOT!!! Will male only boys’clubs end??? NO. Not religiously, not sexually, not socially, not politically..whether it be male only gangbangers, Motorcycle groups, religious groups, male secret societies like the Masons, the Klan, the International Society of Odd Fellows, all their official little clubs,,their professional and college sports teams and on and on and on….where they teach each other to rule the world and over women by the mere fact they have a penis and 2 millenia or more of HIS story enforcing this..and their huge penchant for violence to enforce their rule. Not merely physicsal violence but psychic and psychological warfare which the mtfs and their supporters are doing.

And gay boys are just as guilty because they will find ways to keep born females OUT or disempowered. They have NEVER shared the community with Lesbians equally BECAUSE THEY ARE MALE and thusly have greater access to resources and money.

Thank you so much, Gallus Mag, for posting this. All political movements of oppressed people have collaborators and traitors, but nothing like on the scale that women and Lesbians are having to deal with on behalf of these men. The games and reversals and mind-fuck continue. All I can hope is that more women will finally realize that “transwomen” are the most violent and female-hating of men, stop supporting them against all females.

These suicide threats aimed at merely getting their own way remind me of abusive relationships. It’s a very popular tactic by abusers, preying on the other person’s natural compassion and humanity. Therefore, what I recommend to anyone dealing with suicide threats from transgenders is the same as if the suicidal person was their abusive partner: Call the paramedics. If the threats were sincere, qualified professionals can now give him the help he needs.

I realise that in this particular case (and just generally) it’s not so simple.
It’s better and more practical advice for relationships than organizations under attack. It’s just that the similarities between male transgenders’ tactics and those of abusers are so striking…

Abusive men threaten to hurt themselves to force women to comply with abusive relationships, it is a domination tactic and you have to call it right away what one of these crazy men start piping that you are murdering them by your non-submission and lack of consent. It is pretty pathetic when you analyze their menu of tactics..

This is not something people are willing to point out very often, but if you have someone in your life who is suicidal, you also are dealing with a person who could very possibly justify killing others. It must be said. To say it another way, a suicidal person is not just a danger to themselves; they may easily also be a danger to those around them. It is very true. In many murder-suicides, the murder victim thought they were comforting a depressed ‘harmless’ suicidal person, but ended up victims of a male that considered them compliant targets in his final violent rampage.

Here’s an instance of an admittedly misogynist transgender using emotional blackmail in order to get women to “help him understand the female perspective” in order to better perform his fetishistic appropriation properly.

Calling 911 is an excellent idea. I did this once with an abusive male partner who was threatening suicide if I left him. I just dialed 911 and he immediately changed his tune.

I’ve been steaming the past 24 hours. As an Oregonian, I am angry that an MRA like Radik has successfully targeted a group that has been a critical part of the lives of some of the most oppressed Oregonians, women who have worked hard to build their own culture, free from males. I’m calling breitenbush later today, but one thing I’ve learned since moving here is the need to choose language carefully. You can see the very careful, specific language in the breitenbush brochures that describes how that community sees themselves, and in the letter that very specifically attacked lesbians “in their dotage.” Dotage– a senile period of mental decline and weakness. How unbelievably insulting. My plan is to explain to them how Radik has stated publicly many times how he is against woo, and pseudoscience and new age spiritualism–that characterizes the breitenbush community– is using their openness to divide them from within. We’ll see if that works.

He was a part of the skeptic community until they became skeptical of the wrong thing— his beloved laydee stick! LOL. Interesting how he considers himself such a spokesman for POC, yet despises anything but Western medicine and white male philosophy.

This Notice provides guidance to ESG recipients and subrecipients receiving Emergency Solutions Grants (ESG), Continuum of Care (CoC) or Housing Opportunities for Persons with AIDS (HOPWA) funds regarding how best to provide shelter to transgender persons in a single-sex facility. This notice also provides guidance on appropriate and inappropriate inquiries related to a potential or current client’s sex for the purposes of placing transgender persons in temporary, emergency shelters or other facilities with shared sleeping areas or bathrooms.

From the PDF in the section entitled Appropriate and Inappropriate Inquiries Related to Sex:

“For temporary, emergency shelters with shared sleeping areas or bathrooms, the Equal Access Rule permits shelter providers to ask potential clients and current clients seeking a new assignment their sex. Best practices suggest that where the provider is uncertain of the client’s sex or gender identity, the provider simply informs the client or potential client that the agency provides shelter based on the gender with which the individual identifies. There general is no legitimate reason in this context for the provider to request documentation of a person’s sex in order to determine appropriate placement, nor should the provider have any basis to deny access to a single-sex emergency shelter or facility solely because the provider possesses identity documents indicating a sex different than the gender with which the client or potential client identifies. The provider may not ask questions or otherwise seek information or documentation concerning the person’s anatomy or medical history. Nor may the provider consider the client or potential client ineligible for an emergency shelter or other facility because his or her appearance or behavior does not conform to gender stereotypes.”

Aaaaaand the concern for women’s safety in these places (if there ever was any) continues to be completely ignored. Also that a male can take up precious space meant for a homeless and/or battered woman. Fuck them all. It’s shit like this that will keep me from ever, EVER considering them women.

HELLO … Discussions at Breitenbush that led to a new gender policy were NOT initiated by Heterosexual White Male Will “Miranda Raven” Radik.

They were initiated by a Breitenbush staff member who (I would NEVER presume to assume anyone’s gender) “looks” female. This individual also “looks” white, but she’s big on white guilt – or at least white male guilt.

The decision was not made by Heterosexual White Male Business Director Peter Moore. He didn’t even have a vote. The decision was made by the Board of Directors.

And just to be clear – all the new gender policy does is to recognize people’s self-identified gender, irrespective of external genitalia. Everybody is really sorry that this conflicts with the WiW policy.

And based on the article and comments above, it would appear ANY gender policy would be controversial to an extreme degree.

The adopted policy directly discriminates against the human rights of lesbians to meet and gather amongst ourselves. We don’t care if you “feel bad” discriminating against lesbians. Your actions may not (yet!) be illegal but they are certainly unconscionable. We will not allow this anti-lesbian policy to go unchallenged.

It would be just as accurate to say that WitW discriminate against people who self-identify as lesbian women but possess, for whatever reason, male genitalia. (Maybe they can’t afford gender-reassignment surgery or haven’t gotten around to it yet.)

They can meet and gather all they want, just not at Bb if they exclude the above category of people.

Banning all homosexual events from Breitenbush on the basis that lesbians discriminate against “people with penises” is incredibly offensive and reeks of homophobia and the mindset behind the “corrective rape” of lesbians. You should be ashamed of yourself and of Breitenbush for promoting such anti-lesbian discrimination, exclusion, and hatred.

“It would be just as accurate to say that WitW discriminate against people who self-identify as lesbian women but possess, for whatever reason, male genitalia.” They possess male genitalia BECAUSE THEY’RE MEN, DICKHEAD. Ipso facto, not lesbians.

Dawn/Don, it’s not due to lack of funds that they haven’t “yet” surgically inverted their penises. The straight white males who creep on women this way have no interest in genital surgery. They are not there to support, love, or respect women. This boundary violation is part of their very male, very white, completely heterosexual fetish.

Don’t for a minute mistake these predators for the gay males of color these straight white men try to hide behind. Gay males, including those who transition, usually leave us alone. This is all about straight, white, male privilege, and swm demands to have access to women – especially the women who don’t want them.

“all the new gender policy does is to recognize people’s self-identified gender, irrespective of external genitalia.”

Except according to the statement it clearly did state that genitalia did count in saying “starting with women-only events at Breitenbush (whether sponsored by Breitenbush or not)” and on the basis of this have targeted and excluded this group as “unforgivably discriminatory”.

To be logically consistent there, their self-identification as women and females born should count irrespective of anatomy and they should be able to define their group as well but that’s not what the matter is. Their genitalia, and that they are female clearly does count and you have clearly differentiated this group and this group only for attack in the passive-aggressive statement put out and therefore exclusion from even meeting up.

Also, just saying, if this person is “big on white male guilt” maybe they should look at why these males feel guilty and I don’t know, maybe target that rather than a group of powerless women. There is a reason why that guilt exists, men know exactly what they are doing and don’t like that uncomfortable knowledge about their oppressive and exclusionary tactics and would rather the victims of this shut up and go away.

I am a member-owner of Breitenbush Hot Springs. I would like to add a couple of points for clarity:

The decision that we made is:
“The Breitenbush policy for gender-specific events and times is that we recognize a person’s self-stated gender regardless of birth assignment.”

This policy goes into affect starting October 2015.

We have notified all of our presenters who hold gender-specific events and the response has been supportive of this policy. Key persons representing the Faeries have said their practice is already consistent with our policy.

We are in good and respectful communication with the organizers of Women in the Woods. We have not “cancelled” the Women in the Woods event. They have stated their intent to have the Women in the Woods gathering this August, but we have not been informed of whether they intend to go forward in 2016 under our new policy.

While I do not personally have any problems with this policy per se, I don’t on the other hand agree that we should be able to dictate the inclusion or exclusion policies of any particular group that wants to use our facilities. The WiW policies *are* discriminatory, but as near as I can see, their discrimination is based on something other than hate and anger (and though I don’t presume to understand what actually does drive their policies or their experiences, I get the sense that this particular policy may stem from personal experiences of wounding). So, for me that looks like WiW is declaring a boundary that they ask for in order to create “safe space”. I personally feel we should respect that boundary.

Our Co-Op’s credo states that “We see ourselves as guardians of Brietenbush Hot Springs, safeguarding the earth and healing waters, ensuring their continued availability for all beings who respect them.” and IMHO that would seem to indicate we should approach each group’s need on a case by case basis,and view these needs from the point of view of compassion and inclusion. Perhaps a more useful policy would be something along the lines of “We will not actively support discrimination based on hate and anger”.

I look forward to the ongoing discussions that are happening even now at our Board and Members’ meetings. I believe that this current policy decision does not represent our Co-Op’s final word on this subject.

Thank you for sharing your insider perspective Paul. This policy effectively eliminates all Lesbian events from Breitenbush, under the premise that female homosexuality is discriminatory against males. This cannot stand.
I hope you are able to correct this policy and adopt one that extends compassion and inclusion to lesbians. We call on Breitenbush to support the rights of lesbians to gather and hold events for lesbians.

I hope reasonable accommodation can be made to the policy in respect of the actual, prevalent and real sexual violence done by males to females.

Transgender males who identify as females commit violent crimes at the same rate as other males. There are convicted violent predators who murdered women going on to “feel like a woman” and demand to enter woman only spaces.

I hope Breitenbush decides to be on the leading edge and listen to women’s voices who need and want sacred space and time in safety. And, I don’t believe the cult that says a person with penis is female. Transgender yes, peace and love to you, woman? Never.

I would have no problem if transgender had their own woods festivals. Why do 1% of the population – if that – of transgenders get to dictate and have power over 51% of the born female and protected legal class of female?

So, you are selling access to naked lesbians to men with lesbian fetishes? -because a good dicking can turn any gay woman straight? Esp if they were victims of male violence and no longer consent to be nude around males? But only the men’s entertainment counts, because men are the default gender, and women need to cater to men. Why do you think gay women would want to cater to straight men on their retreat or their vacation?? Women are not allowed to even have a vacation away from males? Only the default gender, male guests get access to women guests served to them? But let me guess, they esp want access to lesbians, right?

Paul, maybe you see these guys as women, but the women Do-not see these men as women, they are very different, egotistical, destructive, and want to erode every last boarder women that avoid men have.

Paul, many women have traumatic and abusive experiences with men, and do not wish to encounter them in a healing place. Some of these men have entered rape groups and discussed their penis- masturbation techniques and disrupted healing groups for a joke.Some join to hear free rape porn, and the men make up stories and argue with rape victims as cheerleaders for sex with men at healing groups, yes, they go there.

Women do not like being used for men’s entertainment, please don’t sell access to lesbians to men, that is offensive, homophobic to these women’s sexual orientation, and other women that only have permission to access women-only spaces for cultural reasons are now banned from attending the event because men are allowed.

You’re welcome, GallusMag. I appreciate your perspective. I can state with relative certainty that the premise under which our BOD enacted this new policy was something other than the premise to which you refer. I ask you and everyone else participating in this thread to please have compassion for these very human policy makers, who are doing their best to understand an unbelievably complex issue (as is evident from this thread!) in order to find the way to best serve our guests and uphold our credo. I’m not trying to say they got it right – just asking for patience and compassion while we all figure it out. Please also keep in mind that our Board is not synonymous with the Membership. Our Membership is the ultimate governing body of our cooperative, and we currently have over 40 Member/Owners. The Board are just 5 of those members elected by the Membership. I find it interesting to note that the decision of the Board was a 3-2 vote – the very minimum needed to pass, and far from a clear mandate IMHO. I think that if/when this issue comes before the entire Membership it will be a lively conversation indeed.

It’s nice to see that you don’t agree with the new rule, Paul, but it’s sad to see that Breitenbush has joined in the continued push in today’s society to strip away women’s rights to set boundaries to preserve their safety, privacy, and their spiritual and mental well-being.
If a Wiccan group booked the springs for a retreat, would they be turned away if they didn’t allow Christians?

I don’t know, Total Deer – and I think that sort of example illustrates my point. I feel it’s very unlikely that we could ever create a blanket policy that could fairly dictate what sort of person we would allow or disallow all groups to include or exclude. Instead, I think we have to get to know the group and the presenters and on a case by case basis make judgement calls about how/if we feel we can support their presence here. IMHO such judgement calls have to be based on values like compassion and principles like fairness and inclusion. *We* *will* *not* *always* *get* *it* *”right”* by everyone’s judgement (because that’s simply impossible – nobody can). But hopefully we maintain an open heart and mind and keep learning.

What you mentioned earlier about examining the intention of the group (setting boundaries, but not coming from a place of hate) seems like it would probably be the best bet for all sides. That way you could avoid Neo-Nazi types but allow groups and clubs who want to have a more private experience to limit the participants.

I would say that “Inclusion” cannot always be placed higher than other values. For example, in recent years there has been a great deal of high-profile criticism of lesbians who aren’t sexually interested in penises, on the grounds that this disinterest is “transphobic” (which, in turn, is nearly indistinguishable from criticism of lesbians for rejecting non-trans males as partners.)

Paul, I am not suggesting that you would join in with this chorus that someone’s feeling that they should be included as a sex partner trumps a lesbians’s right to decide who may or may not have sex with her. I bring up this example because it illustrates that “inclusion” needs to be considered against a background of who has the right to define boundaries. I do have the right to participate in business and politics, even if my neighbor thinks otherwise; but I don’t have the right to sleep in my neighbor’s house or spend her money – no matter how deeply or strongly I might feel that I should be included in those parts of her life.

Women in the Woods is a place for lesbians to come together based on shared experiences in their lives – experiences that someone who lived their life as a man, or might even still live their life as a man (and you can find many people who with “female gender identities” who do, in fact, live full-time as heterosexual men), do not share. I would suggest that a policy which requires that such women set aside this value of connection in order to accommodate the feelings of males should be considered against the background of a larger society that demands that women center males’ feelings and desires in all aspects of their lives.

To >:) – I think maybe you missed the part where I said “I don’t … agree that we should be able to dictate the inclusion or exclusion policies of any particular group that wants to use our facilities. “? Or the part where I said, “[to me it] looks like WiW is declaring a boundary that they ask for in order to create “safe space”. I personally feel we should respect that boundary.”

Thanks to you, too GallusMag, TotalDeer and all the rest. I really appreciate being able to comment here, and being able to read the words of others who have commented here. I understand that people are angry, and many may be hurting. While I am neither female, nor trans, I am no stranger to wounding and anger. It is my hope that I may listen, learn and foster compassion.

What the hell is wrong with the US? Things like this would never be allowed in my country. It’s common sense that males no matter how they identify aren’t females are aren’t allowed into female only events. This is a male power trip. They make it impossible for lesbians to get away from them. An identity is not something measurable like biological sex.

Whoever agreed to allow this is fucking crazy and people in my country would laugh at them for this bullshit.

The religious right in the U.S. is really the only thing holding some of this back, and I hate feeling like I have common cause with those people, but here we are. And they’re still losing ground. Presumably, the only wbw spaces that will be honored in the near future in this country will be under the authority of religion (Mikvehs for Jewish women; women-only swimming facilities, etc. for Muslim women; sex-segregated religious schools).

A note to say that I am not specifically talking about WiW here, as I knew nothing about it until now. These are just my thoughts after reading this article and the comments.

I have to say, as a het woman previously unaware about this stuff… I simply do not get it! Or maybe I do…

Every group in the (western) world is allowed to meet privately under various circumstances or identities or beliefs or religions or what have you. But women-born-women (and it pains me to type that) seem to be the only ones in so-called liberal, western “democracies” under attack as an oppressed group for simply wanting to meet amongst themselves.

Even (straight) men can meet privately with their various groups, clubs and organizations.

I am a rape survivor myself. I don’t talk about it much, because it is painful and I don’t feel safe talking about it unless I know I am with others (ie women) who understand, empathize and LISTEN. I was horrified when I read about the survivors-workshop where a “trans woman” hijacked the convo and made it about him and his penis. I can’t imagine trying to talk about my own ordeal in that kind of environment, where any man (including those who get off on hearing these stories!) can attend.

I just don’t get it. Why can’t women have a no-man rule or a no-penis rule in our gatherings? Why can’t “liberal” men get this? And the lefty women who support it, too? WTF is their problem?

I wish that one of these straight, white, lefty males who support this would explain to me why women can’t draw boundaries and rent public facilities and meet by themselves. Or even have events on PRIVATE property (eg MichFest).

Men can have men-only events.

Trans women can have trans-only events.

But females having female-only events? Wow, that is just so awful, anti-progressive and bigoted!

Just makes me sick and I am fed up with it.

PS This isn’t directed at Paul. Just expressing my frustration. Because I am really frustrated.

It’s actually very, very simple. Women – female bodied people – have an absolute right to draw their own boundaries around their own bodies and space and say no thanks to dick, in whatever way shape form or identity that dick presents itself.

parallelexistence- I believe I essentially agree with you- though I personally extend your statement to include all people. Where the current issue has become complex is where some of our community members and well-meaning policy makers have tried to draft blanket legislation that effectively places one group’s boundary needs over those of another. One does not have to look any further than this thread to see the depth of anger, wounding and outrage that this sort of decision can uncover.

As a more general comment I wonder how the identity panderers even begin to justify segregation in personal spaces on “stated gender identity” while rejecting it on grounds of actual physical biology ?

Why is “gender identity” considered to be any meaningful way to separate people, it’s about as useful as what colour socks someone is wearing – IOW it’s meaningless.

Unless of course the whole point is to prioritise male demands for access to women and the violation of waomen’s space for the sake of it. It would make sense then, of course.

@Jane Two “Their gender policy make it de facto unsafe for women. There is no way I would share a sauna or any other traditionally sex segregated rooms with born males and feel safe. They have posted on their website:

“Men’s and women’s bathhouses serve the needs of campers and those in cabins without bathrooms.”

How is that going to work?”

How is that going to work? Apparently, they were too busy being politically correct to think of silly little things like this. See, they live in a special gender identity pink pony unicorn world, and they are way more progressive than everyone else. In the real world where most of us reside, women know creeps exist, and none of us want to see some strange man’s dick in our shower. If they are going to crap on women, all women should boycott this place. I would love to see a full scale boycott by all women.

(1.) Many, if not most, transwomen, crossdressers, and men who identify as transgender are fully intact biological males. This is not something that transgender activists like to admit, but we know it’s true.

What woman wouldn’t want to share a shower or bathroom with Colleen Francis and “her male genitalia”. Since he is the father of five children, and thinks women are “intoxicating”, I’m sure he is rather attached to “her male genitalia”.

This is the actual Evergreen State College campus police report. It was the mother of a 17 year old girl who complained.

Please note that under sex it says, “F”. At the time of this incident, Francis definitely had male genitalia. Scroll on down and see where it says, “her male genitalia”. Yes, this campus police report says, “her legs open with her male genitalia showing “. For those unfamiliar with this incident, Francis is a divorced retired military man with five children. At the time of this campus police report, he was taking classes at Evergreen State College. Someone did a screen cap of his OKCupid dating profile. Francis is definitely heterosexual, and says, “Did I mention I just love and adore women? Their touch, feel, scent, taste. . . . are all intoxicating to me! :)”

“I am a senior woman. Recently, a “man” claiming to be transgender, who had not yet begun physical treatments, was permitted by our local Y to use the women’s locker room. There are no secure change rooms. The person they allowed in was not courteous and stared at me while I struggled out of a wet bathing suit. He was naked, had an erection and playfully asked ‘do you come here often?’ I understand that gender is no longer judged solely by genitalia, but does a brief contact with the duty manager mean that men not yet committed to gender reassignment are free to disrobe anywhere they choose?”

(2.) They won’t admit it, but men who “identify as women”, cross dress, or say they are transgender offend at the same rate as other males. They have been convicted of murdering and raping women and molesting children. Gallus has done an excellent job of tracking this inconvenient truth. There are too many examples to list. I know that women who read this and other blogs know what is happening, but people like Paul have been brainwashed. They need to open their eyes because this is a small sampling.

(3.) It’s a fact that “gender identity” laws have been abused. Google Christopher, “Jessica”, Hambrook. He identified as transgender just long enough to gain access to two different women’s homeless shelters where he sexually assaulted homeless women.

If a Hambrook incident happens on this property, I hope they are sued.

Sorry for the long post, and I know that most of this has been covered before, but I wanted to update Paul because it appears as if he has been brainwashed by the transgender politically correct thought police.

The percentage of m2fs aka trans “women” who have fully functional male genitalia is not “many” or “most”, it’s almost ALL. The long term results of surgery have proven to be ineffective at resolving dysphoria. So, even with all the money to be made, few surgeons will do the genital surgery now.

Additionally, the true dysphorics aren’t the same as the autogynephiles. It’s the latter who are intent on violating women’s boundaries. Frightening the females is a huge component of the fetish, as is keeping their penises.

As to any of this being “complex” – not even remotely, Paul. It’s male imperialism/colonization/empire-building in drag. The same old, same old, whether you call it Manifest Destiny, the Raj, trans exceptionalism or gender politics – it’s the same old male entitlement at women’s expense….

You and yours are accommodating misogyny whether you see it or not. Shame on you. This will not be forgotten.

I suggest women pass this information on with a recommendation that Breitenbush be permanently boycotted.

Not sure if this is exactly the right article to share this story on but nevertheless:

A woman by the name of Yvette Cormier has had her Planet Fitness membership revoked after she complained about a man “identifying as a woman” using the women’s locker room. She refused to stop commenting about it to other female gym members and so PF revoked her membership.

“”I was stunned and shocked. He looked like a man.. He did not look like a woman,” says Cormier.”

Wow, that’s fucked. So it’s cool for MRA’s, religious extremists, Nazis and every racial group under the sun to hold exclusionary gatherings, but not lesbians/women?

If you don’t like the rules of a given group, create your own group with different rules. You don’t get to shut down other groups you disagree with. Unless these lesbians were plotting a terrorist attack or something else illegal, they have every right to exist exactly as they are.

Natural born females with two X chromosomes have different life experiences than men or transwomen. That’s not up for debate. Transwomen are women; but they’ll never be females. They grew up with male bodies, male privilege and male struggles. They should have all the same legal rights as other citizens, but they have no right to impose upon cis-women/female/lesbian gatherings where they’re not invited. (Just as cis-women shouldn’t have the right to crash a transgender-specific gathering).

Thank you for writing this, Elizabeth. This is a wonderfully concise explanation of how trans’ demand for access to female-only events is invasive bullshit that solves exactly none of their problems. They cannot bear women having a week of freedom from focusing our energies on them.

I know this is an old post, but it’s awful that they were able to get away with that shit! First this, then Michfest. I’m a bisexual woman, and I completely support that lesbians and my fellow women born women should have their own space!

Not sure if they would’ve allowed bi women, but if they did, I wouldn’t be going with my boyfriend looking for a third. That’s not cool. I would go on my own.