I know that I am new, and I am in the process of leaving. However, now my friend will take me to a scholar or imam, to change my mind. I can understand his dedication to what he thinks is the truth, but at the same time I want to challenge the scholar to open his eyes, instead of being shut, by his explanations. I will of course do my own research, but I need your help, to develop enough facts to show him the errors of this religion.

Here are some things I need, if you guys are willing to support me.

1. Logical evidence, that Islam is not the true word of God, and is a hoax.2. Scientific miracles which contradict science, and has been proven to be wrong.3. Errors of an everyday liberal muslim, rather than a fundamentalist.4. Basically any other criteria which will really baffle the scholar, making him reconsider his choices.

I know that this is a hard task, but it must be done. I am not the only one. The more convincing my arguments are, filled with facts, the better chances I have of not making myself look like a fool, due to my own shortcomings. Please help. Thank you.

"Do you remember what you told me once? That every passing minute is a another chance to turn it all around" - Vanilla Sky"If I could just go back... if I could rub everything out... starting with myself" - The Talented Mr. Ripley

Whatever assertions he puts in front of you, you can be assured that that assetion would already been dubunked here on FFI. So, ask him to write his response or record his response so that he cannot go back on his word. There are far too many inaccuracies and inconsistencies in the Quran that it can be defended. Take a look in viewforum.php?f=21

“The truth, of course, is that a billion falsehoods told a billion times by a billion people are still false.”

I wonder if I may give you a simple piece of advice, as I a getting a little worried about you...

If you tell your local Iman you want to leave Islam behind, are you sure he will REASON with you? I think it is more likely that he will first threaten you with hell fire (which is a bluff) and then he will make difficulties for you by using your own family against you. If you are a young person he will probably suggest that your parents send you to an Islamic country to "get your head straight", so some other such measure. If you are a woman, he may possibly suggest to your family to marry you off to a "good Muslim" as soon as possible.

If you already are in a country like Pakistan or Iran, I strongly advise you against this approach, as you will put yourself in severe danger.

I can, however, see that it may be important to discuss all your thoughts with a well-educated Muslim, as a control measure so to speak, to see if you are right. In general, that is a good idea, and you can only get stronger in your own views by doing that. Can I pleade with you to do this in a way that you remain anonymous, ideally by correspondence or using the Internet? That way you can explore things safely.

Thank you Manfred. I live in Canada, and am a 19 year old. None of my family is religious, and they swear, and backbite. I think I will be ok, but I need enough knowledge to challenge this person, as he may be too charismatic, and shut me down, just with his charisma. Now, that is the problem. A big one at that. So I don't only want logic, but also facts, so I can justify myself very good.

"Do you remember what you told me once? That every passing minute is a another chance to turn it all around" - Vanilla Sky"If I could just go back... if I could rub everything out... starting with myself" - The Talented Mr. Ripley

HollowScar wrote:Thank you Manfred. I live in Canada, and am a 19 year old. None of my family is religious, and they swear, and backbite. I think I will be ok, but I need enough knowledge to challenge this person, as he may be too charismatic, and shut me down, just with his charisma. Now, that is the problem. A big one at that. So I don't only want logic, but also facts, so I can justify myself very good.

Welcome, HollowScar! It is very good to have you here! I wish you all the very best as you leave the cult of Islam behind. I hope you'll be careful, though, eh?

Wikiislam here should be very useful for you - http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Main_PageLots of information there about Islam, including contradictions and inconsistencies in the Quran. Best wishes - bye for now - - enceladus

Thank you enceladus. I have already made a word document, and am working on more, but there is one thing that really baffles me. That is the existence of Jinn, or Demons. Now there are many exorcism cases, and one psychiatrist actually did take the Catholic one as genuine, according to wikipedia. Also go to youtube, and type Jinn. Trust me, I got scared shitless looking at some of the stuff. There is this one video where one guy is playing soccer among many other players, and suddenly, he flipped backwards, and kept doing that, in a very unnatural way, that no amount of disorder can explain. Trust me, it did not look like any form of seizure, but was downright bizarre. In a world where science is prevailing, it is these kinds of things, which keep many close to religion. In one way I am flying, but in another way, the gravity is pulling me with all these.

Skeptics would want concrete proof, but trust me, there are certain things no atheist can answer. I may sound like I am talking about the dark ages, but this is still happening today. What are you guys' opinion on this?

"Do you remember what you told me once? That every passing minute is a another chance to turn it all around" - Vanilla Sky"If I could just go back... if I could rub everything out... starting with myself" - The Talented Mr. Ripley

HollowScar wrote:Thank you enceladus. I have already made a word document, and am working on more, but there is one thing that really baffles me. That is the existence of Jinn, or Demons. Now there are many exorcism cases, and one psychiatrist actually did take the Catholic one as genuine, according to wikipedia. Also go to youtube, and type Jinn. Trust me, I got scared shitless looking at some of the stuff. There is this one video where one guy is playing soccer among many other players, and suddenly, he flipped backwards, and kept doing that, in a very unnatural way, that no amount of disorder can explain. Trust me, it did not look like any form of seizure, but was downright bizarre. In a world where science is prevailing, it is these kinds of things, which keep many close to religion. In one way I am flying, but in another way, the gravity is pulling me with all these.

Skeptics would want concrete proof, but trust me, there are certain things no atheist can answer. I may sound like I am talking about the dark ages, but this is still happening today. What are you guys' opinion on this?

There certainly are many things no one knows about. Atheists and scientists are honest enough to accept that they don't know the answer yet. But that does not mean that the answer has to be a Jinn or Allah.

There was a time when patients of hysteria were considered to be possessed by ghosts or Jinns or whatever supernatural entity one believed in. Nowadays only the uneducated people think so. As soon as the mankind identified the symptoms as "Hysteria", all the ghosts and Jinns ran away and hid in the some dark crevices.

Read about "God of the gaps"; it is a fallacy. Apply the same to any other entities like Jinns and you will be able to see the issue clearly. I think there should be one more fallacy defined as "Jinn of the gaps".

By the way, do you know that many Muslim scholars argue that Jinns are actually micro-organisms like bacteria or virus?

Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.

charleslemartel wrote:There certainly are many things no one knows about. Atheists and scientists are honest enough to accept that they don't know the answer yet. But that does not mean that the answer has to be a Jinn or Allah.

There was a time when patients of hysteria were considered to be possessed by ghosts or Jinns or whatever supernatural entity one believed in. Nowadays only the uneducated people think so. As soon as the mankind identified the symptoms as "Hysteria", all the ghosts and Jinns ran away and hid in the some dark crevices.

Read about "God of the gaps"; it is a fallacy. Apply the same to any other entities like Jinns and you will be able to see the issue clearly. I think there should be one more fallacy defined as "Jinn of the gaps".

Here's the thing though. We have an illiterate Arab, who comes and then tells us a lot of stuff, with in a poetic form. On top of that, he puts science into it, whether it makes sense or not. His book consists of many pages, which in-itself are quite a lot. Even though he directly did not author them, he did influence his followers. Now who in the past, would go to so much trouble, to create another religion? This seems very questionable, as the Qur'an seems to have just about everything, not in chronology, but rather in summary format, going through the lives of many prophets. For the people of the desert, to combine all of this, including some other so called scientific facts, must have taken a lot of work. Now, why would they try to accomplish all of this, and for what? Sounds morbid, for something that originated so far back in the desert.

"Do you remember what you told me once? That every passing minute is a another chance to turn it all around" - Vanilla Sky"If I could just go back... if I could rub everything out... starting with myself" - The Talented Mr. Ripley

HollowScar wrote:Here's the thing though. We have an illiterate Arab, who comes and then tells us a lot of stuff, with in a poetic form.

I think it's time you challenged that notion.

On top of that, he puts science into it, whether it makes sense or not.

Either you or I don't understand the word science if you can claim there is any science in the Koran.

His book consists of many pages, which in-itself are quite a lot. Even though he directly did not author them, he did influence his followers.

Actually he influenced next to no one for a long period of time.

Now who in the past, would go to so much trouble, to create another religion? This seems very questionable, as the Qur'an seems to have just about everything, not in chronology, but rather in summary format, going through the lives of many prophets. For the people of the desert, to combine all of this, including some other so called scientific facts, must have taken a lot of work. Now, why would they try to accomplish all of this, and for what? Sounds morbid, for something that originated so far back in the desert.

Personally I think we chronically underestimate people in the past and this can leave us thinking silly things like, "There is no way man could of made the pyramids ... maybe it was spacemen".

Not only that but you seem to assume that people back then didn't have goals or dreams for their future. If I can see megalomania's existing today why shouldn't we assume they existed back then. I think it far more likely that history is a history of megalomaniacs. Now most of the time their vision of themselves and reality never cross paths and we never hear of them in history but for one in every million they sadly do things that we wish they hadn't: Alexander, Mohammed, Napoleon, Attila, Hitler et al.

HollowScar wrote:Here's the thing though. We have an illiterate Arab, who comes and then tells us a lot of stuff, with in a poetic form.

I think it's time you challenged that notion.

On top of that, he puts science into it, whether it makes sense or not.

Either you or I don't understand the word science if you can claim there is any science in the Koran.

His book consists of many pages, which in-itself are quite a lot. Even though he directly did not author them, he did influence his followers.

Actually he influenced next to no one for a long period of time.

Now who in the past, would go to so much trouble, to create another religion? This seems very questionable, as the Qur'an seems to have just about everything, not in chronology, but rather in summary format, going through the lives of many prophets. For the people of the desert, to combine all of this, including some other so called scientific facts, must have taken a lot of work. Now, why would they try to accomplish all of this, and for what? Sounds morbid, for something that originated so far back in the desert.

Personally I think we chronically underestimate people in the past and this can leave us thinking silly things like, "There is no way man could of made the pyramids ... maybe it was spacemen".

Not only that but you seem to assume that people back then didn't have goals or dreams for their future. If I can see megalomania's existing today why shouldn't we assume they existed back then. I think it far more likely that history is a history of megalomaniacs. Now most of the time their vision of themselves and reality never cross paths and we never hear of them in history but for one in every million they sadly do things that we wish they hadn't: Alexander, Mohammed, Napoleon, Attila, Hitler et al.

Agreed, Wootah. There was very little in the way of entertainment or recreation around Mohammed's time - certainly much less than there is now. Many (if not most) people would have been illiterate, and they would have been very "easily led" - gullible, in other words. Very many still are.

Given that kind of background and the lack of distractions, anyone at that time who claimed to be a "prophet" would have got much more attention (and would have been believed much more easily) than nowadays.

A quote from the above site - "We can, with certainty, say that it was not even Muhammad alone who authored the Qur’an.In fact, the major part of the Qur’an was actually either composed by or inspired and written by a few other individuals. Most notable among them were:

* Imrul Qays—an ancient poet of Arabia who died a few decades before Muhammad’s birth * Zayd b. Amr b. Naufal—an ‘apostate’ of his time who preached and propagated Hanifism * Labid—another poet * Hasan b. Thabit—the official poet of Muhammad * Salman, the Persian—Muhammad’s confidante’ and an advisor * Bahira—a Nestoraian Christian monk of the Syrian church * Jabr—a Christian neighbour of Muhammad * Ibn Qumta—a Christian slave * Khadijah—Muhammad’s first wife * Waraqa—Khadijah’s cousin brother * Ubay b. Ka’b—Muhammad’s secretary and a Qur’an scribe * Muhammad himself*** end of quote *** As you can see, dividing the effort up among this number of people (and maybe even others who may have been able to add bits later) - writing it wouldn't have been particularly difficult. We're not talking about the Encyclopedia Britannica here....

Add to the above the obvious lies about things like "talking food" and "crying date palms", and any notion of the Quran being of divine origin goes out the window. - enceladus

In the first video, notice that it is done in Palestine, where monkeys are not supposed to exist. Also notice the creature's feet. This could have been staged, but the pace at which the creature crawled was faster than a human who would crawl like that.

In the second video notice how the player get pulled behind, and all the others players rush to his aid. If this one was staged, I do not see the purpose of that.

Any feedback?

"Do you remember what you told me once? That every passing minute is a another chance to turn it all around" - Vanilla Sky"If I could just go back... if I could rub everything out... starting with myself" - The Talented Mr. Ripley

In the first video, notice that it is done in Palestine, where monkeys are not supposed to exist. Also notice the creature's feet. This could have been staged, but the pace at which the creature crawled was faster than a human who would crawl like that.

I disagree. He's not crawling all that fast. I agree with one of the YouTube commenters who said that this is a disabled man crawling around for food. It's also very "convenient" that the focus of the video is really poor.

In the second video notice how the player get pulled behind, and all the others players rush to his aid. If this one was staged, I do not see the purpose of that.

The purpose is obvious - to make easily-led people believe in "jinns". This video simply shows a player who had a tumble when being tackled, and then (just to be stupid) did a few more as an "encore"! I've done much the same thing myself once or twice. No "jinns" involved.

Nope - Muslim posters on YouTube will have to try a lot harder than this to convince me, given that their book (the Quran) mentions lies like "talking food". Once you have a lie like that in there, why believe anything that it says? - enceladus

In the first video, notice that it is done in Palestine, where monkeys are not supposed to exist. Also notice the creature's feet. This could have been staged, but the pace at which the creature crawled was faster than a human who would crawl like that.

I disagree. He's not crawling all that fast. I agree with one of the YouTube commenters who said that this is a disabled man crawling around for food. It's also very "convenient" that the focus of the video is really poor.

In the second video notice how the player get pulled behind, and all the others players rush to his aid. If this one was staged, I do not see the purpose of that.

The purpose is obvious - to make easily-led people believe in "jinns". This video simply shows a player who had a tumble when being tackled, and then (just to be stupid) did a few more as an "encore"! I've done much the same thing myself once or twice. No "jinns" involved.

Nope - Muslim posters on YouTube will have to try a lot harder than this to convince me, given that their book (the Quran) mentions lies like "talking food". Once you have a lie like that in there, why believe anything that it says? - enceladus

Things like this happened in the Bible too. If there is a God, then isn't it only logical he can make food talk, or do other things, that we humans are limited too. The sole purpose of God is to defy science, as he is superior to everything, and can make anything happen.

Also, in the second video, it looked like he was in trouble and was in a some sort of shock. Plus, all the players rushed to him in a hurry.

"Do you remember what you told me once? That every passing minute is a another chance to turn it all around" - Vanilla Sky"If I could just go back... if I could rub everything out... starting with myself" - The Talented Mr. Ripley

Again, you can choose to believe that "things like this happened in the Bible." As an atheist, my view is that the Bible contains a great deal of nonsense as well. Things like water being turned into wine. Water has the chemical formula H2O. Wine contains ethyl alcohol, which has carbon in it.

HollowScar wrote:If there is a God, then isn't it only logical he can make food talk, or do other things, that we humans are limited too.

No, it is not "logical" at all. Religion does not follow logic. Religion puts forward a grab-bag of stuff, then it says "this is the truth. Believe it or you will roast in hell."

HollowScar wrote:The sole purpose of God is to defy science, as he is superior to everything, and can make anything happen.

Depends if you believe in a "god" or not. I don't. I need proof. 100 percent, scientifically-verifiable proof. You seem to believe in a "god", therefore you can believe whatever you want, as far as an alleged god's "purpose" is concerned.

I would say that the purpose of an alleged-to-exist "god" would be to act as a "mental crutch" and a "security blanket" for people, to make people feel comfortable and safe. Ask 100 people what the "purpose" of an alleged-to-exist "god" is, and you will probably get 100 different answers.

HollowScar wrote:Also, in the second video, it looked like he was in trouble and was in a some sort of shock. Plus, all the players rushed to him in a hurry.

Again, people watching a video will interpret it in different ways. You see it as proof of a jinn, and I don't.

I think I've made myself pretty clear. People will believe what they want to believe. It used to be the case that everyone thought that thunder and lightning were caused by a "god". The same goes for volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, epilepsy, disease and probably other things as well. Personally, I'm glad that the scientific greats of the past didn't just accept the religious stuff that they were told. If they had, we'd have no computers, spacecraft, vaccines and countless other things.

It is your right to believe in jinns and anything else, and my right not to.

Anyway, this thread is now wandering off-topic in a big way. I suggest that if you want to discuss "jinns" further, you do so in the appropriate forum (probably the "Islam questioned and defended" one.) - enceladus

In the second video notice how the player get pulled behind, and all the others players rush to his aid. If this one was staged, I do not see the purpose of that.

Any feedback?

I saw this when it happened. It was a few years ago. The guy actually died. I don't remember what the exact cause was, but there was a medical reason for it. You should google and see if you can find the story.

As for science regarding your original goal, you can discuss prayers. When you pray any distance away from Mecca, the curvature of the Earth makes it so that you are praying to some point in Space (eg. star, nebula, gases), someone's house, a mountain, the man in front of you, etc. The proper way to pray is to stand on your head and pray through the centre of the Earth, but oops, you will be praying towards the Iron-Uranium core of the Earth.

You can check our wikiislam for more info on praying near the Poles too.

perhaps it is important to state something some people consider rather obvious...

It is human nature to look for explanations for everything. If an explanation is not immediately available, many of us resort to hypotheses, some of us even to myths and legends.

For example, we see some unexplained lights in the sky, and we talk about alien spaceships. We see and think we see something in the dark and we call a monster.

Most of the time, when we get a more down to earth explanation of our observations because the facts in one way or another became clear we may a little disappointed but we usually accept the situation. Do you remember the story about the "fairy photographs"? They turned that story into a movie.

So, the "jinn" in the first movie looks rather like a man or boy in a jelaba, moving on all fours. If he really moved as fast as that, I am not sure, but there are all sorts of things you can do with movies, accidentally and intentionally.

The second movie looks very wierd indeed.

Just consider this for a moment... is a jinn the ONLY POSSIBLE explanation for what you see?