In 2011, the Sister Wives Blog started out as a place to talk about the TLC reality show "Sister Wives", Kody Brown and his wives Christine, Robyn, Meri and Janelle. Today we not only discuss the show, we discuss Polygamy in our society, and the public perceptions of the Mormon Religion. We discuss "Polygamy USA" and will be covering "My 5 Wives."
This blog is geared towards the adult reader, so please, no one under the age of 18 years. Thank you!

Wednesday, December 14, 2011

Warren Jeffs’ Conviction Exposes the Coercion of Polygamy

***I read this article when it first appeared in MS Magazine. I remember thinking ..."Now there's something that REALLY touches your heart, and allows you to peek into the heartache that polygamy causes." I had planned on posting the piece then, but must have gotten busy with a Brown antic and didn't. I am very pleased that the author, Zoe Murdock, brought this heartfelt piece back to my attention, because I want all the readers here the opportunity to read this heart-felt piece.

Polygamist sect leader Warren Jeffs was found guilty on August 4 of sexual assault on two girls–a 12-year-old and a 15-year-old who he considered his “spiritual wives.” On August 9 he was sentenced to life in prison for his crimes; the 55-year-old Jeffs will be eligible for parole when he’s 90.

In a courtroom in San Angelo, Texas, in August 2011, Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (FLDS) leader Warren Jeffs defended himself against the charge of sexual assault on the basis of religious freedom. It was an outrageous defense given that the women and children of his FLDS have no freedom whatsoever, religious or otherwise. Their minds have been coerced, cajoled and controlled since the moment of birth.

I grew up in the little town of Granite, Utah, just down the road from the Jeffs compound in Little Cottonwood Canyon. Warren Jeffs went to my high school. We were LDS, and they were FLDS, the polygamists in town. We saw them as outcasts, the sinners behind the wall. As I listened to his droning voice on YouTube giving instructions to the young girls in his sect about “keeping sweet” and “clean” and how “a thought is as bad as an action,” my body reacted viscerally, as if he was speaking to me. I realized those were the same words I heard as a child in my LDS Sunday school, the same words my mother heard. But then the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS) and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (LDS–commonly known as the Mormon Church) came from the same roots. Both trace their teachings back to Joseph Smith. They read the same religious texts and follow the same basic doctrine, except for the doctrine of polygamy–the LDS Church is against polygamy now, at least until the afterlife.

My father’s grandfather was a polygamist. He had three wives. Brigham Young brought him over from England to run the flour mills for the LDS Church. Later, they made him the custodian of the Gardo House, a Victorian mansion in downtown Salt Lake City where men came to meet secretly with their wives after polygamy was rescinded by the LDS Church in 1890. I’ve got to admit that as a child, I felt a sense of pride in my polygamist great grandfather. After all, Brigham Young was a prophet. He was a man who talked to God, and my great grandfather was a man the prophet relied on.

I often wondered if that was why my father became so interested in polygamy: He wanted to carry the legacy of his grandfather. He knew polygamy was against the law. He knew he would be excommunicated from the LDS church if he went down that road. But he was seduced by ideas that had been put into his heart and mind when he was a child–the idea that he could talk personally with God, that he could become a God himself if he lived right and if he found himself at least three wives. When I was about 12, he started to meet with different groups of polygamists, investigating the old doctrine, talking with people who believed the LDS Church never should have rescinded polygamy. His exploration forced my mother to face the devastating specter of living a polygamous life, of being excommunicated from the LDS church and becoming an outcast–along with her 11 children. The problem was, she loved him. And she had 11 children. What was she going to do? Refuse to go along with him? Women didn’t get divorced in those days, not in a small town with a population of 260 primarily LDS and FLDS people, a town in the heart of Mormon Utah. It was unthinkable.

My father’s meetings with the polygamists took place in secret, behind closed doors or away from home, and he and my mother never talked about it when we kids were around. However, I did hear her say, “If there’s polygamy in heaven, I don’t want to go there,” and I’d find her crying in the bathroom with a towel over her head.

Then one day my father said he was going to move us all down to a piece of property in the desert. It was out in the middle of nowhere on the outskirts of Hurricane, the same small Utah town where Warren Jeffs was held in Purgatory Jail before his first trial in 2006. My father said he wanted us to live the Law of Consecration, the old Mormon doctrine the FLDS still live by, wherein everything you own is given over to the Church. Maybe he wanted to be a prophet, like Joseph Smith. Maybe if he was a prophet, living and teaching the Law of Consecration, then God would talk to him and tell him what he needed to do to reach exaltation and become the god of his own world in the “next” life.

The problem was, we kids refused to go. We didn’t want to leave our school and our friends. My father didn’t have the power to make us go, and he didn’t have the upbringing or the followers of a Warren Jeffs to create a community in the desert without us. He only had his wife, his 11 children and his friend–who did go ahead and marry a second, younger wife. That friend was immediately excommunicated from the LDS Church, and subsequently his first wife divorced him. Maybe that’s when my father began to realize that going back to the old ways might not go exactly as planned.

My father was not able to start his own religious community, but he did manage to break my mother’s heart. She truly loved him, and she had been taught to honor and obey him and to rely on his priesthood as her access to God, her access to the Celestial Kingdom (the highest degree of heaven for both LDS and FLDS). I’m sure he coaxed her, read scriptures to her, and tried to convince her that the old ways were the right ways, and that the LDS Church should never have stopped practicing polygamy–because when they did that, they did away with his possibility of becoming a god (according to the books that he was reading).

I don’t know why this prospect of being a god was so important to my father. He obsessed over it. Even late in his life, when he had Alzheimer’s and didn’t know my name, or his own name, he was still desperate to talk with God. The idea had a hold on his mind and he couldn’t shake it. All those stories and promises of a celestial reward from his childhood were still having their effect.

Luckily, his sphere of influence was small. My poor mother was the one most hurt. She died far too young, and I am quite certain my father’s obsession with God is at least partly to blame. But is he really to blame for what he did? At what point does a person become accountable for actions if those actions are derived from their childhood indoctrination? Religious teachings instilled in children through continuous repetition are very powerful, and when words like God and Jesus and Joseph Smith and Brigham Young are taught to a child at the same time as they are learning basic words like Momma and Daddy and dog and cat, they all become equally real. Later, additional religious concepts are built on that basic foundation. It all becomes very hard to unravel even as an adult, unless people purposefully stop and force themselves to look at their beliefs as beliefs, rather than absolute reality. This, of course, is not something leaders of either the LDS or the FLDS want their members to do. Those lessons are taught for a reason.

Warren Jeffs is a product of this kind of indoctrination. As he said in court, his church has been practicing the divine law of polygamy for five generations. But Warren Jeffs was not indoctrinated to be subservient; he was indoctrinated to be the prophet, to speak with the authority of God himself. No wonder he decided to defend himself on the grounds of religious freedom. His entire life has been about religion and religious authority. He absolutely believes himself to be a prophet. He believes he receives guidance directly from God. His freedom to practice his religion is everything.

Still, I have to wonder, what happened to him in Purgatory Jail down there in Hurricane, Utah when he was arrested in 2006? He stopped eating and became suicidal. They say he banged his head against the wall. During a visit from his brother, he disavowed his role as prophet of the FLDS. A recording of the visit reveals him saying, “I am not the prophet. I never was the prophet. I have been deceived by the power of evil.” Apparently, he even sent a note to the judge disavowing his role as prophet of the FLDS.

Was that the first time he saw himself the way others might see him? Did he experience that “objectifying look” that Simone de Beauvoir describes in The Second Sex? If so, it must have been a terrifying moment. After four years of fasting and prayer in jail, he seemed to resolve his cognitive dissonance: reconstructing himself as an even stronger prophet, more sure of his power and authority. He began to rule his followers from jail, by telephone. At the trial, his defense of religious freedom didn’t work, but he probably knew it wouldn’t. Perhaps the goal all along was to become a martyr, like Joseph Smith.

The voice of Warren Jeffs, and the interviews and video and discussions about the way he controls the mind of his people, affects me in a very personal way. Not because I feel controlled myself–though I did experience a strange, surprising fear of being punished when I was writing my novel, Torn by God. No, it’s not for me that I shudder. It’s for my mother. And my father. And all those people still behind the FLDS wall, those who may never get the chance to experience a free mind.

I know what a free mind is. Surprisingly, that was a gift from my father. It was his confusion, his being caught between the old Mormon doctrine and the new Mormon doctrine, that allowed me to see that it was all just made up, that the teachings on both sides were being used to get people to act in a particular way. It’s fine with me if people choose to follow a religious leader, but they should have a real choice. Children who are brought up in an isolated sect like the FLDS have no choice because they have no access to outside information. They do not know there are other options. They do not know they have choices. Maybe that is the worse kind of child abuse.

Written by Zoe Murdock, Author of:

Torn by God: A Family's Struggle with Polygamy: A Novel

I am going to read this book over Christmas Break. It is available at Amazon and as an ebook and I encourage YOU to read it too! We can talk about it in January! great way to start the New Year!

Wasn't her story powerful? What are your thoughts on this story? Zoe might drop by tomorrow to read the posts, if you have a BRIEF Question, she just might answer ya! Please discuss below!

65 comments:

How powerful ...and how sad. I would like to know how Zoe's experiences affected her interactions with, and opinions of, each of her parents, her siblings, and her church (perhaps organized religion in general).

Your experience, Zoe, is so touching. How even looking in from the outside- this religion tore your family apart. First, I want to say, I am sorry you had to go through this. Second, I thank you for sharing this. In some very strange (possibly) divine way- I see this as what we fear for these Brown children. How on earth are these children going to get past all this "lie" of a religion they have been steeped and simmered in since birth? Especially the aspect of polygamy. Your father was probably wanting to do what is right, and "as an outsider looking in" I would say that polygamy was the only way to go, IF I believed in Joseph Smith. IF I were Lds, I probably would be like your dad and go old school.HOW are these poor kids going to free themselves of this mess? The parents have already contradicted themselves on TV. First they said they were free to choose; now, they say they will feel they taught them wrong if they don't.

There's something about this religion that sparks a untied front with those against it. And here it is:"Children who are brought up in an isolated sect like the FLDS have no choice because they have no access to outside information. They do not know there are other options. They do not know they have choices. Maybe that is the worse kind of child abuse."

These children may be well fed and not married off early, but their are abuses going on. Like watching daddy have sex with 4 women. God, thinking of one blows your mind, imagine 4?How can they ever escape and not lose a part of their past?

Zoe, Thank you so, so much for sharing what must be for you and yours, a deeply painful part of your life.

I too was so struck by your clear and first-hand insight...""Children who are brought up in an isolated sect like the FLDS have no choice because they have no access to outside information. They do not know there are other options. They do not know they have choices. Maybe that is the worse kind of child abuse."

I do agree that for the many people seen as mean-spirited detractors of the Browns and other like families, it is largely about the issue of the children being held hostage, philosophically and emotionally.

Once these families put themselves on TV and write the books and do the appearances and book signings, they are opening their doors to the public's conscience and child abuse concerns.

The sheer numbers of children in these families force their audience to question just how do you keep 10, 14, 20 or more children forever tied to the whole concept. Obviously, you quarantine them, cutting them off from any window of alternate thinking or opportunity. In order to successfully accomplish that, there must be stringent rules and equally stringent ramifications for any violations...for children as well as their mothers.

I hope you do visit us. Your knowledge of that world is both educational and needed.

If I had a question it would be...Is there an underground of sorts in these communities in this modern day? Do some of the women or older children discuss amongst themselves their frustration and desire to know what else *is out there,* despite what they have been led to believe about society?

Zoe I will be interested in reading your book. I didn't realize that Warren went to High School in Salt Lake. I had heard that he grew up in California. Brighton or Jordan? I am a Bingham Miner (from the days when it was still in Copperton).

If he lived in the walled compound at the mouth of Little Cottonwood Canyon, then his mother must have been a Barlow. That compound was the Barlow Compound.

Zoe,So what happened to your dad after your mom passed? Did he go into the religion then, or had the urgency passed on? thank you so much for sharing and coming here to chat! I will defiantly be reading the book. Can I download it?

This article does a good job at explaining why someone not born into the FLDS would ever want to join. My Grandfather grew up in Utah with the same befiefs. He tried his whole life to get into polygamy. He wanted "prophetdom" (I just made that word up prophet and kingdom) He was never able to. However he was able to do the next best thing and that was to offer up his daughter as a 2nd wife.

I have nothing but love for my parents, they are both gone from this world now, but both play a very large role in my writing -- as muses, you might say. The novel I am working on now was inspired by my father's Alzheimer's and my mother's poetry, poetry that she hid in the back of her drawer. As for my siblings, when I left the Mormon church and struck out into the world, we didn't interact all that much, but recently, by way of facebook, we have reconnected. They are all brilliant, beautiful people, and I am happy that I have been able to get to know them all over again.

The experiences I had as a child with my parents and with the Mormon Church, left me in the same position as Beth is at the end of Torn by God. I think she explains it as well as I can. Thank you for you questions.

It is true that my father was doing what he thought was right, and I have tried to make it very clear in Torn by God what his influences were. The original doctrine of the Mormon Church seemed right to him. He also had an urgent desire to talk personally to god, which is something the early Mormon doctrine emphasized as a reality. This desire stayed with him to the very end, even when he was deeply into Alzheimer's.

Regarding the Brown children, I wonder how being part of the series has influenced them. Any experience that opens up the world a bit is a good thing from my perspective. It gives the mind more options, and sooner or later children grow up and decide things for themselves, unless they are physically locked away. It will be interesting to see what happens (if anyone follows them over time).

However, as I said in the article, If you have no access to the larger world, and at the same time you are tightly indoctrinated, then I don't know if you have a chance in the world at free will. This is what so outrages me when it comes to Warren Jeffs and his henchmen of the FLDS. I guess in Colorado City and Hillsdale some of the world seeps in, but what about behind that wall of the YFZ Ranch in Texas? And I hear now, that even from prison, Warren Jeffs is cracking down harder than ever. Making the children give up their toys, making the adults pledge their allegiance. Telling everyone else to get out. You know which camp I would be in, and I hope that there will be a good number of them who use this as an opportunity to escape. But it would be hard to start living in the world, when you haven't learned how to do it, especially in these difficult economic times.

Meri, Janelle & Christine - are you paying attention to this? I believe Meri already knows this in her heart.

Zoe, thank you for sharing such a heartfelt story.

How powerful, how clarifying, how absolute the truth about the craziness of thinking 1)having multiple wives helps you get to a "better" place in heaven and 2)that women have to rely on a man to assure her place in heaven!!! Sheer craziness!

As I said in my comment to Lana, there is an upheaval in the FLDS at this time due to the fact that their leader, Warren Jeffs, is in jail for life. It is amazing that he can still rule from behind bars, but it seems he can. There must be some kind of cohesiveness between the people who are leaving on their own, or being forced to leave. And I know there are a number of different organizations that help people who are leaving these groups by giving them a place to stay for awhile and helping them make the transition.

I don't know how the women talk amongst themselves. I would expect that they do though. How could they not? They live their whole lives together. Do they ever question the patriarchy? Their husbands? Again, I would think they do . . . sometimes, but you'd have to ask them to be sure. Course, the might not tell you the truth. The main thing is, I suspect, that whatever you say behind those walls (the physical walls, or the physic walls)stays behind those walls. You think?

Yes, Warren went to Jordan High School. At some point they stopped going to public school, but I'm not sure exactly what year that was. The Jeffs lived in the mouth of Little Cottonwood Canyon. Warren taught in the school there and was later the principal, I believe. From what I've read, some sad things took place behind those walls. I don't really know if his mother was a Barlow or not. I never knew the compound as the Barlow compound. For me, it was the Jeff's compound. We knew the Jeffs' kids, my brothers and sisters knew the Jeffs better than me, because there were no children that were exactly my age, and, obviously, they didn't come to our church which is the place you got to know everyone in our little town, if you weren't in school with them.

Actually, I am working on my next novel which goes into what happened to my father after my mother died, but in a fictional way.

After he died, I got a hold of a journal he'd been keeping and it showed he was still thinking about seeing God and becoming a god and worrying about what he needed to do to achieve that. As I said above, this continued to be true even when he was deep into his Alzheimer's. Interesting that he remembered that when he forgot so many other things. You asked about my book. It is available for $4.75 at Amazon and at Barnes and Nobel. If you don't have a Kindle, you can download "Kindle for PC" from Amazon, and read it on your computer or laptop. Kindle for PC doesn't have all the features of a real Kindle, but it's pretty cool.

Hi Anonymous two, or is this the same Anonymous who posted before. Either way, I thank you for your comment.

Your grandfather was looking for prophetdom, and my father was looking for godhood. The old story was that you had to have three wives in order to become a god of your own world. Well, you probably had to do a few other things too.

Where does that lead me in your adult life, you ask? My mind is as free as a bird. Somehow I ended up at the university, took courses in philosophy and psychology and sociology and anthropology and literature. It opened up the world in a whole new way. And of course several trips to Asia didn't hurt. Once you start seeing the incredible diversity of human thought, you start to say, why would I want to narrow myself down to a single view of things.

We all can state things about our past and our parents, and be truthful.... yet, at the very same time, love and adore them even more. I have done the same, maybe not in written form, but with friends, told them things about my parents that shaped my life; that I probably didn't even understand when they were alive. It cleanses you-- and it frees you to love them for who they were. You parents, doing the best that they could with what they had. Basically, the same thing we do today as parents.

So sad . . . yes it is. And absurd. Why three wives. Why not four, or twenty-four or a hundred? Do you get to be a bigger, better god if you have more wives? Seems like maybe Warren Jeffs thinks so, or maybe he just likes the feeling of power. Maybe he craves that feeling of power. Maybe it drove him insane. I wish I knew what happened inside his mind. Maybe I'll have to write a book some day about a man like that. I touched on it in Torn by God, but to really get inside that mind, in a first person point of view, and try to imagine what happens, that would be . . . scary, probably. Who knows, maybe somewhere along the way I'll attempt it. What do you all think?

That's so true, Mister Sister. The journey of writing Torn by God was incredible. I came to understand my parents in ways I never could have done had I not taken that journey. And, of course, learned things about myself. And even felt a bit of fear and trembling when bits of my old indoctrination appeared out of the blue. Things I didn't know were still lurking there in the deep recesses of my mind. Thanks so much for giving me this opportunity to interact with your readers. I'll check back tomorrow to see if there are any other comments. It would be grand to have a similar discussion about Torn by God, if anyone is up for it. Let me know.

Now it's time to go out for a good long run on the mountain trails. Enjoy your evening, all!

Oh, one more thing. If any of you are on facebook, I'd love to be friends. Just send me a request and mention that we talked here.

I can see how you all feel cathartic after experiencing that- I have done the same, with poetry. When I was able to verbalize the pain my father inadvertently caused me-it allowed me a freedom I had never felt before. Free from the pain he caused, free to love him and adore him as I had in the past. It's wonderful! And, it also serves as a exercise in forgiveness.

Zoe, your book is on my Wish List now and I can't wait to read it. So far, I love your perspective and insight.

Also, I'm very curious about your book concerning your father. So far, there's very little on that subject - the inner workings of the men who seek these extreme forms of sanctity whereby they sacrifice everything and everyone around them ( The Mosquito Coast is all I can think of at the moment.) A great mystery, I'll be interested in your interpretation.

My article on divorce if polygamy were legalized was posted as a comment to your article that Mister Sister posted on August 10. (Thanks, Mister Sister, for posting so many informative articles, including this one, which you posted twice. It deserves both postings.) By the way, it is not based on Muslim divorces, since I assume that even if polygamy were legalized women would still have more rights than in the Middle East. They would be able to testify, to obtain some sort of property settlement, and would have the right to obtain custody of children even if they are teen-agers. In the Middle East, none of these rights are recognized.

My comments include some assumptions which later became true, such as that the favorite wife would probably oppose a divorce by another wife because she would want to continue to use the other wives as baby-sitters. --In this latest season, Robyn has foisted her daughter on Meri, hasn't she?

All you have to do is go back to the past article and see my comments.

In any community there are those with a fair number of mental disorders. I am sure this is so in fundamentalism, but in greater numbers. I'm sure there are those who have no beliefs whatsoever who also belong. The holding of the money by one entity, and the types of businesses and business practices employed by these people make me very nervous. Likewise the law enforcement, "courts", etc. All these problems run unchecked and magnified.

I downloaded your book and quickly read it overnight. Luckily, i am a very clever dog and can speed read. It was not as I expected but excellent as a work of fiction. I thought there would be more autobiographical material, but with respect to your family, this was a good thing.

Religulous===I saw a group on facebook in memory of David Darger and it said he had been killed in a car accident last month.The pics looked like he had one wife and 3 kids. I'd be curious if that is the same Darger as you found in Colo. City.

"I assume that even if polygamy were legalized women would still have more rights than in the Middle East. "

Not true. In the majority of ME Islamic countries a pre-nup is required before marriage. The pre-nup is to protect the wife, whether she is the first or forth, and mandated by the Koran (supposedly.)

Of course there is corruption and men forcing women to sign horrible pre-nups or "losing" the contract or honor killings to just save money. But their wide spread recognition of polygamy has led to some legal forms of protection that would terrify Kody and every other fundamentalist Mormon.

I am by no means an expert on Islam, but I have an interest in that religion as well, particularly of how women are treated. Polygamy was normal in the Bronze age (which is why we find it in the Old Testament) and Islam actually IMPROVED women's role in those nomadic societies. From what I read (and I may be wrong), there are strict rules as to how many wives a man can have at a time, namely no more than 4, and ONLY if he is able to support all 4 equally. So most the general Muslim population is monogamous, Only the very rich and the very poor can afford more than one wife, the very poor having only to provide another tent. And the wives may not even know each other. Unlike in mormon polygamous "group marriages", they are not sister-wives. From all the books I've read on the subject, however, the Muslim women's sense of self and security were also put to the test by the new wives. Oh and the other main difference that although Islam permits multiple wives, it is NOT a religious requirement in order to attain any special place in heaven.

Religulous the jewish religion is the same way. you must be able to support your wives (who do not live together) and if the first wife objexts it can be grounds for divorce. usually the Jewish doctrine follows the law of the country you are in although they will allow it. NTH

Hey Religulous (love the name, by the way - is it a Harry Potter-ish reference, by chance?):

I have heard of the same things you described; but, I was also told by a Muslim friend of mine, that the primary reason (historically, anyway) men took on another wife, was to offer her financial security after her first husband had died in battle. I have not independently verified that information, but it is, at least, an interesting possible justification for the practice of polygyny in Islam, at one time.

I don't know if anyone commenting above has actually met any Muslim polygamous co-wives. I have.

While the Qu'ran and Hadith may direct men to treat all their wives equally (and there is discussion and dispute on that point within Islam) it frequently doesn't happen. In practice men frequently leave the earlier wife/ wives for the newer/ newest model. It is easier to do so when the wives live separately. IIRC, this is what happened to Patricia who used to post on this blog. Often the earlier wife/ wives and their children are left to fend for themselves economically, dispite what you may have read about pre-nups.

Yeah, the Islamist polygamist model is no better than the Mormon one. But it isn't any worse, really, and is very different socially.

The vast majority of Muslims choose monogamy even though their religion allows them 4 wives (though the fourth is usually a rotation of young women who are forced into divorce when the man gets bored.) There is no special honor in Muslim polygamy. It isn't a Principle.

There have been a few court cases in the USA and Canada concerning the rights of 2nd, 3rd or 4th wives in a Muslim divorce. They are surprisingly easy to solve because of those pre-nups. Even if the marriage isn't legal in North America, the signing of the pre-nup proves the man's intention and the woman gets what is owed her.

Sorry, but as an attorney, I know more about the law. And pre-mups are NOT recognized under ANY circumstances for second or third "wives" in this country. They are NOT wives. Any women who receives payment as a second "wife", well, she is receiving payment for services and that is only legal in parts of Nevada (if you know what I mean.) I also have done extensive research on the court systems in Muslim countries and the laws are VERY different. I was not referring to the emotional or religious facts, but the legal. Shariah LAW (not american law) does not give women custody of teenagers, provides that men inherit and own property, and that men are given more weight in testifying in court. This is not what the Koran originally intended, but the way the patriarchal societies such as Saudia Arabia have formulated their laws. I presume that our country would never go that far.

Thanks plot, I look forward to hearing what you have to say about TBG after you read it. The new book that I'm working on, I believe that's the one you are referring to, is inspired by my father, but more about his Alzheimer's. There is the quest for God in that book, but it is a sub-theme, to the larger theme of a man finding himself as he looses himself to Alzheimer's.

But perhaps you were referring to the book I indicated I SHOULD write from the point of view of a Warren Jeffs type character. Now that would be a real can of worms, but fascinating.z.

The idea of all that power being held by one man "makes me nervous" too. Brings to mind the old saying, Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. The fact that these groups tend to be closed to outsiders means that no one ever knows most of what goes on. Series like Sister Wives and Big Love have opened the doors a bit, but Big Love is fiction, and the fact that there are cameras filming Sister Wives surely influences the situation. And the trial of Warren Jeffs certainly revealed a lot of abuse. But there is that issue of religious freedom that keeps the authorities at arms length, until something specific happens and the law sweeps in. At that point, the indoctrination and mind control have already occurred. The minds of the children have already been damaged. How can that be prevented. Or can it. I guess we could say that on some level all religious teachings mold a child's mind. It's difficult.

And there is that big problem of what happens if the leader happens to be mentally ill, or highly susceptible to the corruption of power?Z.

Border Collie -- I should have included this in the previous message, but you are a clever dog indeed, though I have heard of other clever dogs who also read my book in one sitting. Yes, it is fiction. Truth be known I really have ten siblings. Kind of hard to focus on the situation between my parents with that many characters running around pulling the story this way and that. What was most important to me in writing the book were the psychological and philosophical issues at work. It is very autobiographical in that sense, and in many other ways. The place, the time, the church, the destruction of my mother, the sorrow of my father. The survival of myself. All true stuff.

I'll have to leave the discussion on Muslim polygamy up to the rest of you, as I have no experience or expertise in that area, but if I see something that I have an opinion on, I'll be sure to join in. And, I'll check back later to see what other directions you head off in.

Polygamous Islamic wives are often treated better, in the N. American settlements of their divorces from their husbands, than in their home countries. Their prenups have been recognized by Western courts, often, especially if they file the contract with a court in their home country (rather than handing it to their fathers .) It's true of all Western countries that foreign contracts are respected.

It doesn't happen often, since most polygamous Muslim men in N. America keep their wives very seperate and most Muslim women are unaware of their own pre-nups.

The only argument I have here is concerning the issue of pre-nups, which are an absolute right under Islam that does not exist in Mormon polygamy.

Which form ultimately treats women better is a moot point. They both are horrible and abusive. Both depend on religious systems that always favor men. How could there not be abuse of women when the religion practically demands it?

I'm well aware that things are different in Saudi Arabia, but it is a fundamental fact in most other Islamic countries that marriage is treated like a contract as specified in the Koran.

I'd love to see Kody's head spin if one of his wives had demanded an Islamic style pre-nup.

Thank you, Zoe, for taking the time to write for this blog and answer questions regarding your experiences with polygyny. I'm very heartened to hear that, overall, you are doing well mentally. You are obviously made of stern stuff. I can't wait to read the book!

Religulous: brilliant! I'll have to seek out that film; I like Bill Maher. I'm embarrassed to say that I hadn't heard of it until I saw your nick.

Terrasola: as I said above, I was only mentioning what my friend had told me in passing. I certainly do not advocate polygamy, whatever the verbal judo someone might hurl at me.

Zoe, yes I understood why a true story was told as fiction. I nevertheless felt the shock and horror of your mom, although of course as a dog, I am sensitive. And what could the woman do? I don't know how much the LDS could have supported her, and for how long. Her entire world crumbled and she seemed unable to make another move except to resist. And resist she did, against a horrible power. I really feel for you and the rest of the family. Of all the things people can do to wreck their own lives, the addition of any religion institutionalizing the inequality and abuse is staggering.

@ Zoe: thank you for sharing your story. It makes me wonder even more about how much LDS are in denial about the true origins and dogma of their religion, they seem to protest way too much and immediately distance themselves when anything regarding fundamentalist Mormonism rears it's head in the news. And yet we hear again and again, like in your family and the Browns, about people starting out LDS then returning to the original "revelations" of Joseph Smith. Even after more than a 100 years since the LDS banned polygamy, it is still what people first think of when they here the word Mormon. Even Mitt Romney's great-grandfather was a polygamist!

@ Rubber Tree Plant: Bill Maher even goes to Salt Lake City and he and his crew get chased off the grounds of the temple by the "LDS secret police"

I believe that polygamy, under whatever banner or lack thereof it is practised almost guarantees the presence of inequality (isn't that part of the definition?). History, psychology, etc. shows us that the presence of inequality increases the possibility of abuse.

Zoe has shown us one aspect of this (i.e. emotional abuse) by telling this story and by revealing what happened to her dear mother. That Zoe has survived and, dare I say, thrived is a testament to the power of the human spirit.

I would love to hear more of the stories still inside you, Zoe. KOKO (keep on keeping on).

Just read Zoe's book Torn By God last night, I stayed up till five in the morning I couldn't put it down!! Excellent book! I was so touched by the story. It is another great example of the turmoil that polygamy can cause in a family, and that an unhealthy obsession with ones salvation is a very slippery slope. Thanks so much Zoe for your great story! I recommend that everyone read it...

Just came across a site called polygamy 411 and found it very interesting reading posts from woman of Islam. It was good to hear them talking about how their relationships with their co wives were handled. If you get a chance to check it out, it really is addicting reading about what these woman go through and their faith.Lisa

I've read all the great new posts and I will be back a little later to respond. Got to do a bit of editing on my husband's new novel right now. He's about finished with it and waiting for my line edit. So much to do, so little time, especially now when the sun goes down so early.

Let see, where are we. I think I'll answer a few questions in the same email so I don't have to go through the publishing process so many times.

Thank you RubberTreePlant (man I've got so many images in my head from your names.) I am doing quite well mentally, if I do say so myself. :-D

And BorderCollie: Obviously a lot of terrible things have been done in the name of religion (of all ilks) and in the name of patriotism too, I might add. I've always that if we are to be truly free (as far as that is humanly possible) we must learn to live in the shaky world of the unknown. Once you get used to walking on shaky ground it can be quite exhilarating.

Terrasola, sometimes I wonder if the wives of Alex Joseph had more equality. I'm not sure. I haven't looked into it in any depth. Has anyone else looked into their situation? If so, what do you think. I suppose if consenting adults get involved in a polygamous relationship, then it is up to them (as long as they do it freely and without either psychological or physical coercion, then that is their business. The problem for me is that those relationships always bring children into the world. And that's where the indoctrination gets to be a real problem for me. As I've said before, every child's mind is influenced to one degree or another, but generally, if we live in the world, we soon see that there are many options in life. Any idea is interesting and valid, as long as we aren't forced into believing it is the only truth.

Religulous, I understand that some Mormons are not learning about the original doctrine of their church, particularly when it comes to polygamy. I was shocked when I heard that. Someone in their fifties, told me that they were shattered when they heard about Joseph Smith having multiple wives. I agree that there is a great desire for Mormon leaders to distance themselves from the fundamentalist offshoot. Every time trouble shows up in the media over the FLDS, it causes trouble for the mainstream church. Maybe in another fifty or hundred years they can escape their past, but I'm not sure about that. Polygamy is a hard thing to bury, especially when someone is always digging it up. It's a concept that captures the attention of people on both sides.

I often wonder what the leaders of the Mormon church think about polygamy. Whether they believe it is something that will be practiced in the next life. And if it's something they are required to do if they are to achieve the highest degree of heaven. I wonder what they think about the idea that a man can be god of his own world. All those ideas my father was always ruminating over. What do the leaders think about all that. It would be interesting to know.

Z.

@ Zoe: thank you for sharing your story. It makes me wonder even more about how much LDS are in denial about the true origins and dogma of their religion, they seem to protest way too much and immediately distance themselves when anything regarding fundamentalist Mormonism rears it's head in the news. And yet we hear again and again, like in your family and the Browns, about people starting out LDS then returning to the original "revelations" of Joseph Smith. Even after more than a 100 years since the LDS banned polygamy, it is still what people first think of when they here the word Mormon. Even Mitt Romney's great-grandfather was a polygamist!

Thank you Mocha6 and Amused, I'm happy to hear you enjoyed (if that is the word) my book. And, Amused, I will keep writing. I am writing. I teach writing. I write therefore, I am. :-D I hope if we have a discussion here re Torn by God after Christmas that you will join in. And, you know, I'd also appreciate it if you would post your thoughts on my Amazon book page. There are a number of reviews there, but it is very helpful for people to hear what others have to say from different perspectives. And, besides, I'd love to hear what you have to say/write as well. You make my head swell with your praise, but I'd like to hear/read how it struck you more specifically as well. But maybe that's something to consider for January when Mister Sister calls us all here again. You think, Mister Sister?

Just read Zoe's book Torn By God last night, I stayed up till five in the morning I couldn't put it down!! Excellent book! I was so touched by the story. It is another great example of the turmoil that polygamy can cause in a family, and that an unhealthy obsession with ones salvation is a very slippery slope. Thanks so much Zoe for your great story! I recommend that everyone read it... December 15, 2011 9:05 PM Amused said...

By the way, I mention the Gardo House in the Ms. Magazine article and I believe it had a live link to an article about that house. It's kind of interesting history of that period of time after polygamy was banned in the Mormon Church. My great grandfather, Samuel Sudbury, is mentioned in the article. You can see it at:

Looks like I've made my way through all the comments, so I'll leave off for today and check in again tomorrow. You all have got to give me time to write though. I've got three quarters of a novel waiting for me. :-D

Thanks again, Mister Sister for posting my article and providing the opportunity to have this discussion.

* sorry click the wrong button :) **just his rights were given by God. God is perfect and knows the things we don't know. On the otherhand man is not perfect.and usually messes up.It is true there are woman who suffer in Islam with the people who decided how God's laws will playout our daily lives as how they will be interpeted .I do believe that a woman must educate herself in her religion so that she can make sure her rights are given to her. Majority of woman do not know her rights and then fall into many issues .My husband and I discussed that he has the right to take another wife ,He also knows that I love him very much ,but with that being said he also knows that if I can not deal with it I will ask for my right a divorce. On the positive note for me where my husband is from they do not allow for him to take a another wife.

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