pennybug84 wrote:So I thought of something the other day and I wonder what others may think. I personally kind of hated how Bella always seemed to want/need Jacob around (especially in BD) even though she loves Edward and then married him and was pregnant with his child. I could never really understand it. I was thinking about it the other day and I wonder if it's because she never really seemed to have any close friends. She never kept in touch with anyone from Arizona, so obviously no one there was a really close friend. And she never became close to anyone in Forks, I would consider Angela a friend, but didn't seem that close a friendship. So I think part of the reason she wanted him around was because he really is a best friend to her & seem to know & understand her really well. I don't know if that's true but it was something I thought of the other day.

I'm of two minds on this, first Bella may have the classic “I want my cake and eat it too,” when it comes to her two men. Yah, she chose Edward as her main love but a piece of her heart broke off to be Jacob's. I don't understand why but there's my first theory.

Second, she didn't have anyone before forks to be there for her. The Scottsdale crowd is a bit rough, not unlike the 90210 folks at times. So when she got to have true friends she really invested in them and could not be easily parted by them. In truth I think it’s a combination of both these.

Jazz Girl wrote:Penny~ It's a loaded question I think. In Breaking Dawn, I truly believe the contention Jacob makes after Bella's transformation. Bella's need for Jake when she was pregnant was, at least in part, a byproduct of the imprinting. Not like the imprint had happened , but he was drawn naturally to where Ness was, even before she was Ness. Before that, through Eclipse, Bella truly loved Jacob. Who can say why? Yes, Bella loves Edward more than her own life, knows without any doubt that her life cannot be without him. But, I truly believe that it is possible to love more than one person at a time in different ways. I do believe Jacob was the natural course of Bella's life in a world without magic and love stronger than gravity.

You know I wasn't really too sure on the whole loving more than one person thing. But last night I was at a church activity, it's a bunch of young single adults & we had a panel of our church leaders talk to us about dating, relationships, etc. And one of the lady's there told us about how she married/dated her husband. And she had kind of a similiar experience with having feelings for two guys & she had to work that out & decide who she wanted to marry & be with. And being the obsessed Twilight fan that I am, it brought my mind back to this. So actually hearing someone say that & tell her story helped me to understand what Bella goes through with Jacob and Edward a little bit more.

pennybug84 wrote: So actually hearing someone say that & tell her story helped me to understand what Bella goes through with Jacob and Edward a little bit more.

I too believe that it is possible to love more than one person at the same time. But I don't belive it is is possible to love them both so much that you could really go either way. IMO one person will always be closer to your heart, like it was with Bella and Edward. Bella always knew that she could never give all of herself to Jacob, even when Edward was away and most likely never coming back. She saw Jacob as her Paris. And even when she kissed Jacob in Eclipse, she knew straight away afterwards that she could never choose him. IMO if one person "loves" two people equally, it is not real love. For it to be real love, you have to able to choose one person over the other. And Bella did just that. If this makes any sense. What I am basically saying is that I think the one love is weaker than the other.

As for why she wanted to keep Jacob around, I believe it is because she was so reliant on him in NM. He was her sun, and he helped her through her most difficult time. And this was at a time when she alienated so many of her other friends, and some of them she never got back. So Jacob was important to her as a friend, and maybe in a way he was her link to the human world. She was a different kind of Bella when she was with him than when she was with Edward. She was more carefree. And I think she developed an unbreakable bond with Jacob, and that was why she needed him there. She also needed to see that he was safe, and that he was coping in life.

^^^I didn't mean to make it sound like she could go either way. How do I explain. The other guy was someone that she knew before she dated her husband and he was gone for awhile (a church mission). But she knew that she loved & wanted to be with the guy she ended up marrying and that she would have to deal with things. I don't know if I'm making sense.

I know and understand that Jacob helped her through a difficult time in NM and was a good friend to her (that's when I liked him.) It's just weird and hard to process love and friendship and all that goes with it. (Especially for someone like me who has never fallen in love.) It just really bugged me sometimes her need/dependence or whatever you want to call it on Jacob. I'm just like HELLO girl you are in love with Edward. He is the one you're going to be with. And then especially that kiss in Eclipse. It's like YOU'RE ENGAGED why are you kissing another person besides your fiancee? Sorry I could go on. It's just some things for me to think about and understand.

pennybug84 wrote:^^^I didn't mean to make it sound like she could go either way. How do I explain. The other guy was someone that she knew before she dated her husband and he was gone for awhile (a church mission). But she knew that she loved & wanted to be with the guy she ended up marrying and that she would have to deal with things. I don't know if I'm making sense.

I know and understand that Jacob helped her through a difficult time in NM and was a good friend to her (that's when I liked him.) It's just weird and hard to process love and friendship and all that goes with it. (Especially for someone like me who has never fallen in love.) It just really bugged me sometimes her need/dependence or whatever you want to call it on Jacob. I'm just like HELLO girl you are in love with Edward. He is the one you're going to be with. And then especially that kiss in Eclipse. It's like YOU'RE ENGAGED why are you kissing another person besides your fiancee? Sorry I could go on. It's just some things for me to think about and understand.

Well pennybug84, love is complicated at best and down right maddening most of the time. I hope you get to have love often in your life. It's worth the risk and the heartache that comes with it. Speaking for myself, when it comes it will knock down the door. There is little reason and even less understanding why. It happens to you and in that moment you can run or go for it.

As for Bella, well confusion is often in the package. She is young and has little self awareness of who she is and what she wants out of life by the time these crazy events take place. She has to figure them out on the fly. So, it's understandable that she make a few mistakes along the way. We all do.

pennybug84 wrote:^^^I didn't mean to make it sound like she could go either way. How do I explain. The other guy was someone that she knew before she dated her husband and he was gone for awhile (a church mission). But she knew that she loved & wanted to be with the guy she ended up marrying and that she would have to deal with things. I don't know if I'm making sense.

No, I know you didn't mean it that way. Or that was what I was trying to say, at least She loved both guys, but in the end she knew that she loved one of them more and chose to be with him. So I was speaking more in general terms since I have heard people say that they love two people just as much (like on Dr. Phil ), and I don't believe that's possible. So I was agreeing with your point, I think, just stating it badly. So your friend had to try to see who meant more to her than the other and who she should be with, and IMO she loved that guy more than the other one.

And I agree completely about Bella. I was so mad at her. I mean like I said in my previous post, I see her reasons for needing him. But that doesn't make it right, IMO. She can't have it both ways. Either she would be with Edward or she would be with Jacob. She was engaged to Edward, later married and mother to his child...Still she kept needing Jacob. You don't hold hands with your friend, when you know that friend wants something more. That is just not fair to anyone. And the whole idea she had about being Switzerland...Come on...how naive can you get? You have your boyfriend and your friend who are enemies, and you are trying to get everyone to get along because you want them to? It was just not going to work. At least not at that point. And it was not fair of her to want them both in her life, when it was clearly hurting them both.

I think that being with someone like Edward is something that requires great care. Because he is so selfless that he would just erase himself completely if Bella wanted him to. And it was so easy for her to think that she didn't hurt him because he never showed it. She knew she had hurt him when she kissed Jacob, but even before that...He tried so hard to hide his pain when she went to Jacob.I agree Dark Knight that she was confused, and that is understandable. And don't get me wrong, I love Bella, but at times she was selfish both in relation to Edward and Jacob.Okay...sorry....rant officially over...

And I agree completely about Bella. I was so mad at her. I mean like I said in my previous post, I see her reasons for needing him. But that doesn't make it right, IMO. She can't have it both ways. Either she would be with Edward or she would be with Jacob. She was engaged to Edward, later married and mother to his child...Still she kept needing Jacob. You don't hold hands with your friend, when you know that friend wants something more. That is just not fair to anyone. And the whole idea she had about being Switzerland...Come on...how naive can you get? You have your boyfriend and your friend who are enemies, and you are trying to get everyone to get along because you want them to? It was just not going to work. At least not at that point. And it was not fair of her to want them both in her life, when it was clearly hurting them both.

I think that being with someone like Edward is something that requires great care. Because he is so selfless that he would just erase himself completely if Bella wanted him to. And it was so easy for her to think that she didn't hurt him because he never showed it. She knew she had hurt him when she kissed Jacob, but even before that...He tried so hard to hide his pain when she went to Jacob.I agree Dark Knight that she was confused, and that is understandable. And don't get me wrong, I love Bella, but at times she was selfish both in relation to Edward and Jacob.Okay...sorry....rant officially over... [/color][/quote]

Hiya, I'm new to the Lex and was intrigued by this discussion. I felt the same as Dovrebanen, I was pretty angry at Bella for not taking her loved ones (both of them) feelings into consideration before acting on some of her baser instincts. It seems out of character that she would allow herself to string Jacob along and hurt Edward just because she can't resist, when she seems to have no problem controlling her emotions and actions in regards to the rest of her life (and her undead life). And sure, Edward tried to hide his pain, but really! She'd have to be a self-absorbed idiot not to realize the impact her actions would have on the love of her life. And she's a pretty smart cookie. Yes, she is young and will make mistakes - but hurting Jacob and Edward seems more selfish than anything and the basis of her whole personality is unselfishness. It didn't make a lot of sense to me. And the parts where she is insisting to Edward that she needs to help Jacob because he is in pain sounded like a rationalization of her actions, not the concern of a true friend.

Angelvamp wrote:Hiya, I'm new to the Lex and was intrigued by this discussion. I felt the same as Dovrebanen, I was pretty angry at Bella for not taking her loved ones (both of them) feelings into consideration before acting on some of her baser instincts. It seems out of character that she would allow herself to string Jacob along and hurt Edward just because she can't resist, when she seems to have no problem controlling her emotions and actions in regards to the rest of her life (and her undead life). And sure, Edward tried to hide his pain, but really! She'd have to be a self-absorbed idiot not to realize the impact her actions would have on the love of her life. And she's a pretty smart cookie. Yes, she is young and will make mistakes - but hurting Jacob and Edward seems more selfish than anything and the basis of her whole personality is unselfishness. It didn't make a lot of sense to me. And the parts where she is insisting to Edward that she needs to help Jacob because he is in pain sounded like a rationalization of her actions, not the concern of a true friend.

Thanks for chimming in Angelvamp...

IMO, "the basis of her whole personality is unselfishness," is not true. She's a caregiver and does look after others but that does not always equate to unselfishness.

I hear it often how Bella is selfish, can we explore that? How is she selfish and why?

IMO, "the basis of her whole personality is unselfishness," is not true. She's a caregiver and does look after others but that does not always equate to unselfishness.

I hear it often how Bella is selfish, can we explore that? How is she selfish and why?

Dark Knight~ Welcome back. Glad to hear the trip was lovely. making the pilgrimmage and all that. A very interesting question. There is always a lot of discussion on the Edward thread about his nature as selfish vs selfless, but this is the first time I have seen in brought here, where it more completely belongs, in my opinion. Bella does have a selfless nature. She is, in many situations, very selfless. Witness her caretaking of Renee and Charlie, her plan to sacrifice herself to save Renee and the Cullens in Twilight, or to save the Cullens in Eclipse. But, in the time when it matters most, her selfishness is beyond compare. The situation with Jacob in Eclipse and into Breaking Dawn is the epitome and peak of selfish behavior.

I will say this first. While I acknowledge that taking care of Renee and Charlie shows an unselfish nature, a willingness to give of herself, I also think she didn't really have a choice in that. Growing up with a mother like Renee, Bella could either assume the parental role or allow things to fall apart. Is that a lot for a child to handle? Absolutely. Did she give up a lot to assume that role? Absolutely. But what other choice did she have. Accordingly, by the time she moved to Forks, that role was pretty much so ingrained in her, in her personality, I don't think she made a conscious choice to assume that role. She was just reassuming what was already her niche in the family structure. She'd just switched parents.

Bella's treatment of both Edward and Jacob in Eclipse and in Breaking Dawn was essentially unforgiveable. It was the essence of selfishness. She refused to respect or even acknowledge how deeply she was hurting both of them in her drive to protect herself. I am the first person to admit that the wounds Edward inflicted on her in his leaving were deep and irreversible. But, Edward's intentions at least were true. His heart was in the right place, even if he had lost his mind temporarily. And, there in lies the different. While Edward knew Bella would grieve for him and that he would cause her pain, he considered it the lesser of two evils, so to speak, as opposed to killing her or being the person who brought what killed her into her life. But Bella refused to even acknowledge that she was hurting Edward at all. She did at least recognize that what she was doing might cause Jake pain. But, with Edward, she never even considered that he might be the least bit affected by the fact that she was continually throwing herself into another man's arms all the while insulting Edward for feeling just a little threatened.

That, right there, is the essence of Bella's selfishness. Not even admitting that what she was doing could and did cause immese pain to the one person she claimed to love most in the world. I do love Bella. I identify with her in so many ways. But, that I cannot forgive her for.

Oh, one of my favorite topics lol. I think Bella is selfish in a few ways. The main one though is the Jacob/Edward situation. She expects Edward to just let her be with Jacob whenever she wants and not have a problem with it. Then she gets mad when he gets upset about it. She keeps Jacob by her side all the time, making him watch her go through everything with Edward and the baby knowing that he loves her as more than a friend. That is completely selfish. If she cared about him she wouldn't want to hurt him like that.

I agree that for the most part Bella is a selfless person. She's used to taking care of others and putting them before herself. It seems though that once she moves to Forks and meets Edward all of that changes. Esp after he leaves her, she begins to put herself and what she wants before others even when it's hurting them. She just expects everyone to give her what she wants and let her do the things she wants without having a problem with it or trying to say something to her.

For the most part, I don't have a problem with Bella. I actually really like her. But when it comes to this subject I could go on and on. All those points are of course my opinion so I understand if no one else sees it that way.