As far as the "who created Anakin" business goes, Luceno again chose the middle path. Which is great. Exceeded my expectations, really. 10 years before Anakin's birth, we are introduced to "the Magister's pregnancies" and learn that he has supposedly succeeded in creating life. Shmi was a slave at the time, Plagueis was Gardulla's business partner and had helped her take over Tatooine, you get the idea. Then, we flashforward 20 years later, and Plagueis panics when he learns of Anakin.

[i said:

Darth Plagueis[/i], by James Luceno]Plagueis ran a hand over his forehead. Are we undone? he thought. Have you undone us?

Who he is referring to is left ambiguous. Is it himself? Is it Palpatine? Is it the Force? Of course, Plagueis has developed this crazy idea that the Force is like an opponent to him, trying to thwart his plans, and we are to assume that "the Force struck back," like he does and the chapter title suggests. But if we are not so inclined, Plagueis creating Anakin makes perfect sense.

Best way it could have been handled.

We also never learn if Palpatine did mention Damask in his acceptance speech. I'm so sure he didn't.

Yeah, that's exactly how I interpreted it. The ambiguity behind Anakin was brilliant.

Sable-Hart said:

I stand by my assessment that Plagueis is a photo negative of Cloak of Deception, with the principal difference being the emphasis on Sith machinations rather than those of the Jedi. It is a more cerebral work, concerning with Sith philosophy and politics, though there are a few important action scenes to ground it in Star Wars escapism.

Although the story content of the second half of the book ran into Cloak of Deception territory quite a bit, I felt the tone and pace of this novel was completely different. CoD was a bit helter-skelter; DP was basically following the lives of two dudes. Er. Crazy sadistic dudes.

Just to dispel the demon of quoting, and to close a cycle, here are quotes casting similar ambiguity on Palpatine's nature:

Palpatine's fury buffeted Plagueis. Blossoms growing along the sides of the pathway folded in on themselves, and their pollinators began to buzz in agitation. FourDee reacted as well, wobbling on his feet, as if in the grip of a powerful electromagnet. Had this human truly been born of flesh-and-blood parents? Plagueis asked himself. When in fact, he seemed sprung from nature itself. Was the Force so strong in him that it had concealed itself?*

--

Cosinga exhaled deeply. "I know that you are of my blood, because I had you tested, just to be certain. But in truth, I don't know where you came from -- who or what you are descended from."

*This of course, with the added 'he's so evil flowers fold in on themselves in his presence' touch, channels the other ambiguously begotten dude's "Noo" moment in Ep. III.

I have to say, Luceno does a tightrope act with this. Certainly not what I would have liked, but better than I expected. Best part for those on the "evil incarnate" camp (and those include Misters Lucas and McDiarmid so, let's say, the ones on the "right" camp ) has to be his father's remark that he had him tested because he had doubts whether he was his son, or even human at all.

Rosemary's Baby: Tenebrous (visiting Plagueis' mother) is like the creepy old man next door, who keeps an eye on Rosemary. And Help me please: Palpatine's father decided to have his son tested, wanting to verify his paternity, and discovered...what about his son?Did Plagueis have a hand in Palpatine's conception? Like Damien from The Omen, Palpatine was created evil? *shivers*

I have to say, Luceno does a tightrope act with this. Certainly not what I would have liked, but better than I expected. Best part for those on the "evil incarnate" camp (and those include Misters Lucas and McDiarmid so, let's say, the ones on the "right" camp ) has to be his father's remark that he had him tested because he had doubts whether he was his son, or even human at all.

Rosemary's Baby: Tenebrous (visiting Plagueis' mother) is like the creepy old man next door, who keeps an eye on Rosemary. And Help me please: Palpatine's father decided to have his son tested, wanting to verify his paternity, and discovered...what about his son?Did Plagueis have a hand in Palpatine's conception? Like Damien from The Omen, Palpatine was created evil? *shivers*

What he discovered, I believe, is that his son had a high midi-chlorian count; the EU has already established that Force-sensitive beings can manifest spontaneously in families that have never before shown such talents. The father had probably already guessed this was possible from as soon as when he tried to swaddle the son and the infant fought back with a strength greater than his size. What did the father do with this knowledge? We know the son certainly didn't want to go to the Jedi, and the father probably didn't for many reasons of his own, so I suggest the father went to great lengths for the rest of his life to keep it quiet. The book speaks of the boy being moved from school to private school, bailed out of every jam he got himself into - I believe one of the primary reasons for all this effort on the father's part is to keep his son's Force talent from being discovered. I would not even put it past the father to hate his son for the burden this power - and the sting of his son's rejection of him - had lain on a man unprepared to raise such a child. And as the father was clearly abusive in his dialogue with his son, I do not doubt that the son would then sense this resentment and grow to hate the father with even more murderous intent.

Given this fundamentally dysfunctional father-son dynamic, I'd have to propose that this young man was quite possibly fated to become the man he became practically from the start. A new entry into the debate of nature vs. nurture.

Back in the day, when it was Sido-Dyas, it was a play on Sidious. I wasn't a fan of Sifo-Dyas, preferred Sido-Dyas. Would you say this book gives Sifo-Dyas a chance to become an interesting character worthy of being responsible for the clone army? I want to say, "Change it back to Sido-Dyas, so we get rid of an unnecessary character, and Obi-Wan doesn't have to wear a fake beard in that scene." On the other hand, I like to think this book will bring Sifo-Dyas into his own, which will only further my SW appetite.

I have to say, Luceno does a tightrope act with this. Certainly not what I would have liked, but better than I expected. Best part for those on the "evil incarnate" camp (and those include Misters Lucas and McDiarmid so, let's say, the ones on the "right" camp ) has to be his father's remark that he had him tested because he had doubts whether he was his son, or even human at all.

Rosemary's Baby: Tenebrous (visiting Plagueis' mother) is like the creepy old man next door, who keeps an eye on Rosemary. And Help me please: Palpatine's father decided to have his son tested, wanting to verify his paternity, and discovered...what about his son?Did Plagueis have a hand in Palpatine's conception? Like Damien from The Omen, Palpatine was created evil? *shivers*

Impossible. He lacked the knowledge, wisdom, understanding, and power at that point in time. Certainly, Plagueis had the will, but he had yet to find the way. He was merely a silent observer on Bal'demnic, he could not have been more insufficiently equiped for that other endeavor.

Prior to this novel, I secretly hoped there would be more to all that stuff, but am pleased nonetheless.

Mistresss Coffee surely will attest to the badassery of the moment when the two most-powerful Dark Lords in gffa history acted in complete unison and utter harmony. So unnatural that it....

Well, lets just say that if mastering death was like playing tictactoe, then Luceno truly wrote without hubris when he wilted those flowers. If you haven't read it, then you don't know the powah, of the Dark Side of the Force. Plagueis tried to create life AND one-up Dark Empire in a single, solo meditation session, so the hubris did end up finding its way home. The aftermath was that cancer (my word there) hit every animal in the vacinity of the chamber and Shmi got pregnant (not stated, but it is known) and hopefully when sleeping. Because Plagueis had remade himself into a dream....

I'm only surprised that Luceno didn't include the actual quote about how a Sith Lord's true strength resided in their will. But that's some serious nitpicking, for sure.

So I had extremely high expectations for this book... and it completely surpassed them. This is the most wonderfully written, deep, and continuity heavy EU book in existence. The level of detail and amount of information that is crafted onto every page is brilliant. I once feared that exposing the origins of Palpatine and revealing information on his master would ruin everything, but Luceno managed to make everything 1000x better and add dozens of new layers to the Sith Grand Plan, while still leaving everything that needed to be ambiguous (Anakin) ambiguous.

One thing: I wish we had learned the name of Darth Tenebrous master, since he was the one that kickstarted the Grand Plan.

Luceno truly wrote without hubris when he wilted those flowers. If you haven't read it, then you don't know the powah, of the Dark Side of the Force. Plagueis tried to create life AND one-up Dark Empire in a single, solo meditation session, so the hubris did end up finding its way home. The aftermath was that cancer (my word there) hit every animal in the vacinity of the chamber and Shmi got pregnant (not stated, but it is known) and hopefully when sleeping. Because Plagueis had remade himself into a dream....

Impregnating a sleeping Shmi - how mythic! I love it...except I weep for Shmi, being invaded like that. Plagueis is...well...not benevolent. Its creepy.

The_Forgotten_Jedi said:

One thing: I wish we had learned the name of Darth Tenebrous master, since he was the one that kickstarted the Grand Plan.

I'm curious, now that the book is finally out, what did everyone think of having Plagueis die so late in the story? I was expecting him to be around for Anakin's conception, since that had been hinted at before, but never saw him surviving into TPM. Was this Luceno's call, do you think, or an instruction from on high?

Loved the book, probably my favorite SW novel yet and Plagueis has undoubtedly become my favorite Sith in the EU!

Nobody145 said:

Phoenix5 said:

Nobody145 said:

snip...

SO, essentially, Plagueis and Palpatine did manipulate the medichlorians, but that alone didn't create Anakin, so the Force did the rest

is that right?

I don't have a copy of the book (still debating about Kindle or physical copy), so my memory might not be the most accurate, and I'm not that good at keeping the timeline exact in my head, but basically, Plagueis takes Palpatine on as his apprentice, they train, Plagueis experiments, and about nine years before Episode I, they make a major breakthrough. I forget if that was when Plagueis managed to literally bring Tenebrous' backup/secret apprentice back to life multiple times (although he had already been brain dead for a long time by then so not sure if the mind would've remained), or something else, but its a major accomplishment, and an asteroid doesn't drop on their head so they figure the Force is letting them get away with it (or rather that they've overcome the will of Force, being power-mad Sith and all).

I'm fairly certain it was when Plagueis and Palpatine forced, well, the Force out of balance so it was tipping towards the dark side. It was described, as knocking a deity off of his throne. But yeah, Plagueis expected the Force to fight back in some way.
Either that or it was caused by Plagueis's "failed" attempts shortly afterwards.

Starkeiller said:

[i said:

Darth Plagueis[/i], by James Luceno]Plagueis ran a hand over his forehead. Are we undone? he thought. Have you undone us?

Who he is referring to is left ambiguous. Is it himself? Is it Palpatine? Is it the Force?

Nah. In that case Plagueis is clearly referring to the Force as when he and Palpatine wrested the Force to darkness Plags expected the Froce to fight back. And it didn?t. Plageuis believes Anakin is the Force?s effort to fight back. Doesn?t mean he is right though.

It all sounds very intriguing; one of the reviews on Amazon said that the book would explain how Palpatine was able to kill the three masters in ROTS so quickly, did it??

Earlier in the novel Plagueis said he felt stronger with the force yet his Midi levels had remained the same, later when he increases his Midi?s how does he feel? And what does he increase his midi level to??

Truly the future must always be in motion or why would the force create an all powerful force user because in the end Palpatine wasn?t overpowered he was betrayed.

Where do the events on Mortis stand now??

I think when Palpatine again unbalanced the force by drawing Anakin to him, the force pumped up Luke to Anakin?s level to again try to bring balance, only for Anakin to defeat his own personal demons and come through in the end.

If the force did indeed create Anakin to counter Palpatine, then it stands to reason that when Anakin went rouge the force tried to counter its most powerful creation and likely succeeded by giving him a false vision (probably the first he every experienced) of him successfully jumping over Obi Wan.

Within the 50 page sample I have read, its states that Midi?s give individuals increased strength (only briefly for those who receive a blood transfusion), I have long held the belief that the stronger you are in the force the stronger you are physically, this has played out in every single saga duel so far (I haven?t really paid attention to the dynamics of the duels in the Clone Wars).

Also, are there any connections to Dark Empire in this one? I'm a HUGE defender of that series.

I may have to look again, because right off the bat I don't recall seeing any. Which is odd, since the book seemed to contain the most obscure references I've ever seen in a Luceno novel (if that's even possible).

TalonCard said:

I'm curious, now that the book is finally out, what did everyone think of having Plagueis die so late in the story? I was expecting him to be around for Anakin's conception, since that had been hinted at before, but never saw him surviving into TPM. Was this Luceno's call, do you think, or an instruction from on high?

Hmmm... for some reason it didn't really bother me so much. Him knowing about Maul was an interesting move as well. I would think these aren't necessarily Lucas's instructions (although they could very well be), but Luceno would have to have gotten Lucas's express permission to have offed Plagueis when and where he did. I'm curious if there was ever a time Luceno and the Del Rey folks sat down and brainstormed the overall plot of the novel with Lucas in person.

Edit: My white highlight has the first part that vaguely mirrors DE. Then Plagueis adds more to that on Naboo when he settles the score with the former king.

Mortis remains unchanged.
It wasn't Palpatine who needed to be countered at THAT point, IMO.
The only bones to pick over with this Novel belong to Plagueis and going back to Bal'demnic for the ore. Specifically the midichlorian increase AND the curious decision to simply accept death. As for Bal'demnic, how did they not disturb Tenebrous's remains? Wasn't the ore underneath the grotto cum makeshift tomb? Nothing major, but it did stick out when I read the line meant to be taken in passing. Obviously, the short story guarantees that no one found them, but still. Anyways, I really struggled with Plagueis just getting fried to death, it made little sense....

Unless Plagueis didn't actually die of course. Then I was Ok.
Kinda hoping he trapped his essence inside 11-4D.
Just for kicks.

Also, are there any connections to Dark Empire in this one? I'm a HUGE defender of that series.

At one point, Plagueis does consider, and ultimately dismisses, the idea of using clones as a means of immortality. For him, it's his own body or nothing.

Haven't quite finished the book yet, but love it so far. Loved Palpatine murdering his family in the manner that he did, and the way his father feared him. Poor Palpy... I can just see him, on the playground, playing with his toys, while his father looks on from a shadowy corner, wanting to murder him... great stuff

Hmmm... for some reason it didn't really bother me so much. Him knowing about Maul was an interesting move as well. I would think these aren't necessarily Lucas's instructions (although they could very well be), but Luceno would have to have gotten Lucas's express permission to have offed Plagueis when and where he did. I'm curious if there was ever a time Luceno and the Del Rey folks sat down and brainstormed the overall plot of the novel with Lucas in person.

From his interviews, no:

"I worked most closely with George's right-hand man at Lucas licensing, Howard Roffman. It was a strange way to go about the book, because I kind of had to bypass both Del Rey and the usual editorial staff at Lucasfilm and work directly with Howard over the course of what amounted to about a year of preparation.

I submitted many, many versions of the outline until we finally reached consensus on where we wanted to go with the book. The marketing text about ?this is canon at the highest level? ? I suppose that's true, that a lot of the stuff came from the very top levels of Lucasfilm. Everything was approved at that high level. I had to make the assumption that Howard was speaking directly with George about a lot of this stuff. I didn't have any meetings directly with George, but it seemed like a lot of the approval was coming through him to Howard. I was not privy to all of the things that happened behind the scenes."

Nice that he out of his way on the dedication page to thank the LFL-go-between; Roffman, for all of his input & assistance.

As I see it, Plagueis interpreted Anakin as answer of the Force to his and Sidious's force-shifting ritual.

Although it's possible that Plagueis might have created him with experiments after Sidious departed, Plagueis himself does not seem to believe this. I honestly assumed that all the dealing with Gardulla were only the prelude for showing us Plagueis receiving Shmi Skywalker as a gift to experiment on. This would have fit nicely with the story.

And despite being a fool for trusting Palpatine, Plagueis would have not make Sidious's mistake when dealing with Anakin/Vader. He was way too wary about this strange development, while Palpatine was, of course, blinded by his arrogance.

Oh, and by the way, why the hell needed Plagueis this breathing apparatus? He could heal and rejuvenate himself through the force, so why was he not able to deal with that problem? And what's all that stuff in the Prologue about Plagueis having failed in his quest. The man was immortal, after all. Of course, he could be killed through violence, but he would never have died a natural death. Palpatine seem to indicate that he has learned all of Plagueis's secrets, but has he? As far as we know, he has to put the essence transfer technique back together to make his own way to immortality, so he can't have that fluent in all those MC techniques, can he?

Sidious mused about his power, about how far behind he was.... then at the end, he ranted and explained how actual power didn't matter as much as brains. I think the breath mask was simply left in as the means to Plagueis's end. His scars had barely finished fading, not sure about how long it take for the regrowth of his missing bone and facial parts. But he was definitely immortal. He showed Sidious that one could kill and revive another through the force, but he didn't teach the method. Jedi use midis to move boulders and stones; while Bane's Sith moved from messing with boulders and stones to repairing blood vessels and damaged tissue, then beyond....