Trouble logging in?If you can't remember your password or are having trouble logging in, you will have to reset your password. If you have trouble resetting your password (for example, if you lost access to the original email address), please do not start posting with a new account, as this is against the forum rules. If you create a temporary account, please contact us right away via Forum Support, and send us any information you can about your original account, such as the account name and any email address that may have been associated with it.

All this talk about what Shiina should do to not waste talent that others would give everything to possess makes me wish there's a Sibyl System in place to simply decide everyone's vocation according to their potential. In any case, I agree that it's ultimately up to Shiina to decide how she would like to use her talent. She is under no obligation to live up to any expectations other than her own.

All this talk about what Shiina should do to not waste talent that others would give everything to possess makes me wish there's a Sibyl System in place to simply decide everyone's vocation according to their potential. In any case, I agree that it's ultimately up to Shiina to decide how she would like to use her talent. She is under no obligation to live up to any expectations other than her own.

Exactly, it's not her obligation to live for others. But at the same time, she can do that for the greater goods, and there's nothing wrong with wanting her to be aware of that possibility.

All the talk about how she should do this and that, in the end they are just words, if Mashiro definitlly decides to chase her manga dream, then what can Rita do? Hugging Sorata for the rest of her life, in any case, Mashiro still has the upper hand as she's an adult that has all the rights to do that (as dependant as she can be though)

Have to say I really want to follow Mashiro's example and throw Rita out the door. Maybe Sorata as well after the end of this episode.

Certainly has the talent and ability to be an amazing artist. But no where under the belief that people have free will does she have to be one. Let's make all the art lovers of the world happy while keeping her miserable for the rest of her life? Is Mashiro's happiness worth nothing at all?

Besides who the heck cares if she wants to spend some time making manga? She can easily go back to painting after that career is over if she cares to. It's her call and her life. Some nut from England doesn't have the right to dive into her life here and harass her into doing something she doesn't want to do.

I don't know. Just got annoyed at how Rita had the nerve to pull this kind of stunt. What kind of idiot is she to expect that Mashiro would just nod and say ok after being told to come back? Frankly I just wonder about her motives. I don't really see any good ones here. I just think she's here to punish Mashiro for being able to chase her dreams (after Mashiro "broke her"). Really stands out as very manipulative. Use Sorata to get back into that house, using Mashiro's jealousy to further aggravate the situation and then trying to get Sorata to argue her side by taking him to see the painting.

Until we are living under Destiny Plans (Gundam Seed) or Sibyl Systems (Psycho-Pass) I think Mashiro can waste whatever talents she wants. Mashiro found something so important that she went half way across the world in order to chase it. She certainly doesn't need to go back just because "the public" demands her next painting.

Whatever the motivations of the talented person, their talent in use will usually reap benefits for the rest of humanity.

Having more star players makes a game more entertaining to watch, and more memorable an experience in general.

Having more great paintings to behold makes for a more beautiful world and an aesthetically richer world.

Having more great music to lisen to makes for a more serene and uplifting world.

I'm sure most of us here have certain J-POP artists that we love, or seiyus that we love.

Sorry, but this principle simply doesn't work for me. Everyone has more talent than someone else, and everyone makes a choice with what to do with it. You and I are choosing to be here discussing this topic, rather than doing what we can with our lives to "benefit the rest of humanity". Are you trying to say that being here is what you can do to benefit humanity? Or are you trying to say that you're so "untalented" that you're exempt from the responsibility to humanity that people more talented than you are subject to? That because they were born with a gift (through no choice of their own) that they are now burdened with a responsibility to humanity that those that aren't gifted do not have? (And if that's what you're saying, isn't that convenient of you to say so?) Those are harsh accusations (and please don't think I'm attacking you personally; you'll see why I'm not), but I hope you understand my point: you say "Mashiro could be a somebody!"; we all could be a somebody. Talent really has nothing to do with it; it's about making choices. If I'm allowed to choose to squander my resources (money, talent, time, knowledge, expertise), then so is anyone else. And if Mashiro has a social responsibility to use her talents to further humanity (even though this is a fictional example), then we'd all better be doing some sincere soul searching to see whether we are each doing what we can be doing to live up to our own responsibility to the world. Maybe we can't be world-class athletes, artists, or musicians, but there is something each of us can do. If we're not doing it ourselves, we can't very well tell others how they should live their lives (either directly, or by "expressing regret"). Or, at the very least, we shouldn't be under any pretension that anyone should give us the time of day. Unless we're doing what we can do, we're just hypocrites.

So that's why I can't accept your Michael Jordan example, and I don't believe in a "responsibility to the world" or some sense of shame if someone squanders a talent "that could benefit humanity". I don't feel "what an incredible waste of talent" if someone chooses to do something else with their life, because each person has to pursue their own happiness and sense of purpose. Of course, people who truly care should present all the options and help explore the possibilities... but at the end of the day, the only one who can "own" my talents is me. I'm quite sure that's just the way it has to be. Freedom is a more valuable gift than any talent.

Have to say I really want to follow Mashiro's example and throw Rita out the door. Maybe Sorata as well after the end of this episode.

I think the subject on Rita's action has been duscussed enough, so I won't be bother typing them again. But for Sorata, if he sees a picture of that caliber and still can say straight away without any doubt that Mashiro should just keep drawing manga instead of painting, it would suprise me very much.

Bringing up things like Psycho-Pass' Sibyl System and Gundam Seed's Destiny Plan strikes me as missing the point entirely. We're talking about natural talent so great that you don't need such elaborate systems to create, discover, and/or cultivate it.

There's a massive difference between trying to micromanage every last person's life, and simply telling your amazing Spiderman that "With great power comes great responsibility".

Talent is, at least in part, a form of power. Talent is empowering, after all.

So, could one reasonably say "With great talent comes great responsibility"? To me, it doesn't seem like that big of a stretch off of the original Stan Lee quote.

The Spiderman origin story is all about a young man turned superhero learning to have a social conscience. It's all about learning that it's a waste for a person that somehow becomes gifted with great power to not put that to good use and to some societal benefit.

Now obviously you don't expect the individual to sacrifice everything for the good of society, but you can reasonably expect the uniquely well-positioned (be it with power or talent) to at least be considerate of what their unique opportunities could bring for both themselves and the world.

Rita raises points to Mashiro that ought to be raised. While the final decision is Mashiro's, these are not points that nobody should bring up, out of some fear of offending Mashiro. Rita was being too pushy, but on the whole, it is probably good that she did what she did in this episode.

Quote:

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

You and I are choosing to be here discussing this topic, rather than doing what we can with our lives to "benefit the rest of humanity".

Good grief... Nobody is saying that Mashiro has to use her every waking hour to paint.

Posting on Anime Suki is one of the things I do for fun in my spare time. It's not my livelihood.

Quote:

That because they were born with a gift (through no choice of their own) that they are now burdened with a responsibility to humanity that those that aren't gifted do not have?

Isn't that fair, though? The "cost of celebrity"? The "cost of fame and fortune"?

The price of having substantially more abilities, talent, power, etc... than the average person is that more is expected of you. You have greater opportunities but what comes with it is greater expectation.

Quote:

So that's why I can't accept your Michael Jordan example,

Why can't you accept it? I think the analogy works fairly well. If you don't think so, where do you see serious problems with the analogy?

Quote:

...and I don't believe in a "responsibility to the world"...

So do you think that Spiderman was wrong for becoming a superhero? Do you disagree with the quote "With great power comes great responsibility"? Do you think that people shouldn't be encouraged to have a social conscience? That those to which great things have been given, nothing should be expected of?

I'm kind of reminded of another young artistic prodigy, Hagu from Honey and Clover, who comes under a lot of pressure to produce new works each as good as or better than the last. There's one scene in particular when she's kneeling in front of an empty canvas, in despair. Frantically trying to produce the new works expected of her.

Maybe this is a similar case.

Who's to say that Shiina was not under a lot of pressure to produce new work, was feeling stifled and trapped, and that led her to escape to Japan to try something different with her life?

Rita may have good intentions, but we know what road is paved with them. Maybe she doesn't realise WHY Shiina wanted to do something else.

IWho's to say that Shiina was not under a lot of pressure to produce new work, was feeling stifled and trapped, and that led her to escape to Japan to try something different with her life?

Shiina escaping?This is a girl who needs a caretaker, I can hardly see her planning an escape to another country by herself.
Also her reaction to seeing Rita (who was her caretaker) wasn't "oh crap they found me" but a welcome hug.

Also there's this small exchange:
Shiina: You helped me start drawing manga.
Rita: I only taught you how to use a computer.I didn't help you with anything else.
Shiina: Rita...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

So, could one reasonably say "With great talent comes great responsibility"? To me, it doesn't seem like that big of a stretch off of the original Stan Lee quote.

Lets just say I'd be much more forgiving of Shiina if she refuses to start painting again than I would be to peter parker if he had refused to become spiderman.

I do have another example of a similar case,I'm a hardcore Oakland A's fan (a baseball team) and a couple years ago a young 23 year old player who was starting to be hyped in the fanbase as the A's future centerfielder quit baseball to become a priest,this came out of nowhere and shocked everyone, here's a long article about him

Here's a quote from one of his former teammate (who wasn't good enough and didn't make it to the major leagues) that's similar to what some are saying

Quote:

"I do have mixed feelings," Kleen says. "I know who Grant is. I know he's going to do amazing things for God. God is going to use him powerfully. That has eternal value. I can understand – to him that's more important than any accolade on the field. At the same time, when you're so close, and so gifted, with a God-given gift, that has to play a factor into the process. That's why they're mixed.
"He threw away what so many of us wish we had."

So, could one reasonably say "With great talent comes great responsibility"? To me, it doesn't seem like that big of a stretch off of the original Stan Lee quote.

Actually I wouldn't find that very reasonable; rather I see that as an attempt in guilt/duty-tripping someone in to doing what we want them to do. Mashiro is a celebrity, so now she has to uphold those expectations? Obviously not. You don't just suddenly proclaim yourself a celebrity and achieve said status, it's the collective audience that have the widespread presence to elevate someone to such a status. And now that they have, the next step is proceed to demand things of said person, because of their apparent status as celebrity (And because we decided that a celebrities have special obligations)? It's awfully self-convenient to collectively push the role of responsibility on someone who stood out, then claim they have an obligation to live up to it.

Mashiro, and no other human being, have that responsibility. They might choose to shoulder it regardless, for whatever reason, they might even feel driven and empowered by all said attention. But it is not within anyone's rights to demand of said person to conform to those expectations. It's her life to live, and her talent to not utilize if she so chooses. Me, you, and no one else really gets a claim to accessibility to her talent, nor do we get to demand (with any relevance) that she makes herself available for it.

She is her own person first and foremost, as are we all, with the same basic rights and freedoms. What the masses want doesn't have any more claim over her than it does over anyone else, talent or no talent. Which is to say, if she doesn't want to paint for now, then they can only accept it. Or alternatively complain about it, but random dish rattling doesn't transform in to actually relevant authority over her career choices only because the dish rattlers would like that to be the case. She has no responsibility towards these masses, towards the field of art, or anything else. She can choose to have, but the very suggestion that she should shoulder it for the betterment of others, irregardless of her feelings on the subject, is an insult to human liberties.

The question of which is the better medium, which leaves a bigger inspiration, which is more critically acclaimed and all that - it doesn't matter. Not one bit. The answers to those (which may be up to debate) are only as important as they are to Mashiro. Is she searching answers to those, and wants to base her immediate activity on them? Then they matter. She doesn't care about that, and simply wants to draw what makes her happy without those considerations? Then they don't matter. They might matter to someone else, but if they don't matter to Mashiro, then they might as well not matter at all. The needs of her would-be fans do not (and should not) enter the equation, on any other grounds than her own choosing to make them part of said equation.

It's her life to live and her talent to do with as she pleases, even if that means "squandering" it (according to people who want her to do what they like. Obviously something else must be bad) not some kind of a public property that everyone has a claim to. If she wants to take a temporary break, that's her choice. Even if she wanted to abandon painting altogether, that would still be her choice. Strangers and their demands simply aren't a part of the equation.

Talking your friend out of a bad career decision is not a violation of human rights- Yes, objectively speaking World class painter to average Mangaka is not the best of career moves, you don't need to be an expert to know that.

(Yes it makes Mashiro happy blah blah blah... Still a bad career move.)

At this point the decision making right is still with Mashiro, nobody is dragging her back yet so until that happens, please stop bringing the whole Human Rights thing because that's simply not the issue right now.

No, the issue is that the empty argument of "she has a responsibility to her fans to continue painting" was brought up. No she does not, and there exists no such responsibility. Whether that's a good career choice or not couldn't be less relevant, even if it were objective (which it is not), and certainly not for the side with vested interest in her continued painting to make an objective call on.

No, the issue is that the empty argument of "she has a responsibility to her fans to continue painting" was brought up. No she does not, and there exists no such responsibility. Whether that's a good career choice or not couldn't be less relevant, even if it were objective (which it is not), and certainly not the side with vested interest in her continued painting to make an objective call on.

Fine it's one bad point I'm not going to argue that, however like the others before you why does it sound like you think there's some villainous mastermind behind the scenes profiteering off Mashiro when nothing in the story so far suggested that? Is it just the natural thing to assume? If I got it wrong then I apologize for the mistake.

One other thing I want to mention though is regardless of the argument before- I hope you're not saying that her jump to Mangaka is actually a good career choice, because the only thing it has going for her is that 'it makes her happy'.

Fine it's one bad point I'm not going to argue that, however like the others before you why does it sound like you think there's some villainous mastermind behind the scenes profiteering off Mashiro when nothing in the story so far suggested that? Is it just the natural thing to assume?

Caricaturish exaggeration on your part aside, the suggestion that Mashiro should do X because people have expectations riding on that, isn't very far from trying to "profiteer" as you put it, because that's an attempt at guilt-tripping her in to doing something she doesn't want to do, for whatever reason, in order to get her contributing in a manner she doesn't feel like contributing in.

Quote:

One other thing I want to mention though is regardless of the argument before- I hope you're not saying that her jump to Mangaka is actually a good career choice, because the only thing it has going for her is that 'it makes her happy'.

How do we define a Good Career Choice? Potential for large public recognition? High critical acclaim? Potential to bring in lots of cash? Potential to go down in history? Good for whom and according to whom?

The "It makes her happy" is the actually important part, not the things listed above, so long as said career provides Mashiro with the necessities she needs. A career that brings in enough money to satisfy her lifestyle and emotional needs is a better choice than a career that gives her widespread recognition in a certain field (that she perhaps doesn't want), millions of cash (that she probably has no use for) and a chance to go down in history (which she may not care about). If the former provides all she needs and makes her happy, then that's a better choice than the later which produces excess amounts of things she doesn't need and is unhappy.

The "Does it make her happy" is actually the first question that should be asked, because we are talking about it with a specific person in mind, with specific needs. So the question isn't "which is the better career choice", but "which is the better career choice for Mashiro". Based on her needs, not those which would be normally tempting to others.

Caricaturish exaggeration on your part aside, the suggestion that Mashiro should do X because people have expectations riding on that, isn't very far from trying to "profiteer" as you put it, because that's an attempt at guilt-tripping her in to doing something she doesn't want to do, for whatever reason, in order to get her contributing in a manner she doesn't feel like contributing in.

I see that you're lock on that one suggestion, then one quick question- Did you give it any thoughts about the other side of the argument- That is to say, all the reasons Mashiro should go back to painting regardless of what reasons Rita gave, or have you already decided that Mashiro should stay the course because it's what she wants now?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyfall

How do we define a Good Career Choice? Potential for large public recognition? High critical acclaim? Potential to bring in lots of cash? Potential to go down in history? Good for whom and according to whom?

The "It makes her happy" is the actually important part, not the things listed above, so long as said career provides Mashiro with the necessities she needs. A career that brings in enough money to satisfy her lifestyle and emotional needs is a better choice than a career that gives her widespread recognition in a certain field (that she perhaps doesn't want), millions of cash (that she probably has no use for) and a chance to go down in history (which she may not care about). If the former provides all she needs and makes her happy, then that's a better choice than than the later which produces excess amounts of things she doesn't need and is unhappy.

The "Does it make her happy" is actually the first question that should be asked, because we are talking about it with a specific person in mind, with specific needs. So the question isn't "which is the better career choice", but "which is the better career choice for Mashiro". Based on her needs, not those which would be normally tempting to others.

That is, assuming Mashiro can make it as a Mangaka which is uncertain as it is right now as compared to the relative certainty that she would make it big as a painter.

Right now she doesn't have to support anyone- she has a roof over her head, food on the table, and clothes to wear, and an education at a decent school. Life is good.

But once money becomes an issue and she starts to feel the pinch... I wonder if you could still say the same thing...?

That is, assuming Mashiro can make it as a Mangaka which is uncertain as it is right now as compared to the relative certainty that she would make it big as a painter. (...) But once money becomes an issue and she starts to feel the pinch... I wonder if you could still say the same thing...?

She's gotten serialized in a magazine at age 16,that's quite an achievement so I really don't doubt she can make it as a mangaka.She's not a very materialistic person so I doubt she'd interested in money so the modest life of a mangaka could suit her,her editor could provide her with a caretaker (mangakas need assistants anyway).

The one question I wonder though is when she's saying "no" to Rita,is she saying no to going back to painting,or no to going back to england?or both?Those are not the same thing.

But once money becomes an issue and she starts to feel the pinch... I wonder if you could still say the same thing...?

As I stated before, for Mashiro to be what she is now, she is extremely lucky.

Quote:

She's gotten serialized in a magazine at age 16,that's quite an achievement so I really don't doubt she can make it as a mangaka.

While I don't have doubt Mashiro's talent, the anime made me believe that the major cause for her serialization is that she met Sorata and lived in Sakurasou, which is totally a lucky thing.

Quote:

No, the issue is that the empty argument of "she has a responsibility to her fans to continue painting" was brought up. No she does not, and there exists no such responsibility.

While I agree that a person should always make their own decision, but a person's responsibilies come as many kind.

I don't think Mashiro's responsibility is that for her to produce better artworks everydays, but to excel and be successful in Fine Art, given her talent, it's more ambigous than just producing amazing artworks for humanity.

You know there're lots of stories about young student nowadays don't go to higher education, instead they choose to work right after high school or even middle school, even if they are smart and definitely have the potential to do very well in college and uni. The bottom line is that they earn money that way and the money they earn provide them a sense of hapiness, If you say it's not wrong for them to do that because it's their life, fine, you are not wrong. But on the parent's pov, if they had the ability to support their child for higher education and is happy to do that, if their children just scratch it away and doing what they want, of course there's going to be some reactions for that, If the parent just smiles and says "go ahead and do whatever you want" then I would suspect that they don't really care much for their child.

And we might have different cultural value regarding this matter as well, in the West, yes it would more liberate for the individuals. But in the East, we do get bound by the responsibility to answer our parent, teachers or friends expectation for what we do in the future. Yes, you may say it is nonsense and yes, we sometimes try to break free from that. But it's there for a reason, and there's a majority of people who still think it is the right thing to do. I think one of the reason Japan can get to what it is today has a lot to do with their way of respect for responsibilty and discipline for society.

"3 idiots", an Indian movie is actually a very good example for this, and I myself had the same issue when choosing my major to study. In the end, the guys in the movie and I are still doing things we wanted, not paricularly things that our parent had initially wished, but we have the mutual understandings for this matter and for me that's true happiness.

So for Mashiro I think it's the same, it's not only about getting Mashiro to understand her expectation of others for her (not necessary oblige to follow that), but also Mashiro making people understanding her passion and feelings on the subject. It has to go both ways, Rita is Mashiro's ex-caretaker, and arguably her best friend (not some jackass control freak), she cannot just outright reject Rita without listening or telling her feelings about the subject matter, that's not something a friend should do to each other, at least in my definition of a good friendship.

For those that said Rita did not say stop making manga and just paint. She flat outright did Shiina in Japan is able to do both paint and have manga published if she wishes. But Rita is adamant about Shiina going back to England and there she will not have a manga publisher to publish Manga so how can you say Rita did not tell Shiina to stop making manga?

Shiina, is in the best place for her where she can do both to her hearts content living the life she enjoys and Rita is trying to take that happiness from her. It was here in this episode that we see how much Shiina has matured she knew EXACTLY what Rita meant when trying to take her back to England and threw Rita out! Bravo! She stood up for herself probably for the very first time.

When we first met Shiina she gave off the expression of someone that was so passive that she was a bird in a cage and did what she was told and never strayed. She probably was suppose to be a short term visit to Japan as the teacher is her cousin but when she got there she found she liked it and even getting a manga published. Under Sorata care he has been making her learn a bit about taking care of herself some and the concept of money to buy things she wants.

I still feel with how she had no clue about the real world out there and no common sense and how her short visit to Japan has matured her so much they did not want her self reliant in any way just to keep painting her paintings. The whole thing still makes me think if it wasn't all about money it was also about the others greed do not try to make her self reliant and they can essentially control her and have her do nothing but paint. That is how it came out to me from the very beginning because she is a genius and we know she is not dumb she has learned to use phones and texting and the purpose of money slowly under all there guidance but yet she is as old as she was and did not know any of this before? That just smells of someone that was kept down and made to stay reliant for other motives.

BTW does anyone here know what the meaning of the title is? It sounds like a double meaning here as it's not just talking about the cats as Shiina appears to have been treated the same way as a dependant pet that wants to make the master happy.