I began with a discussion on the engines which drive evolution. The one fact which prevailed in that discussion was the impossibility, near impossibility, of a positive mutation (the probability is so near that it is practically impossible). Now I will simply list several well known and accepted facts which do not allow the theory of evolution to exist. To continue on the point of mutations which drive the theory of evolution, I will begin there. This will be a wealth of information. It is perfectly alright if, in your responses, that you discuss the points I have presented here one by one, listing the point number in some sort of way.

1)The Structure of Protons in the Nucleus

Protons, being of like charge, naturally repel each other. Speeds needed for nuclear fusion does not occur naturally in nature. We attempt to produce nuclear fusion, and even then, the process is not 100% efficient (during the process, protons bounce off of each other). Everything that is alive contains carbon. Period. Carbon has 6 protons. Those protons are held together by nuclear forces, which attract protons to each other when they are extremely close. Any one micrometer farther apart, and the protons split. How can, with repelling protons and with the lack of naturally occurring nuclear fusion, carbon have formed? In addition, how can anything with an atomic number (atomic number=number of protons) of 2 or higher have formed? The answer to this question is that it is frankly impossible.

Big bang attempts to explain this. However, this is simply what big bang sais: nothing took itself, and made something from nothing. The big bang theory sais that a tremendous explosion began the universe. Where did those things which the explosion was composed of came from? And if from something else where did they come from? The eventuality is that it same from nothing, or that it appeared from nowhere. Everything has a source. Things dont appear from nothing, explode, and cause the universe to expand and heat, then cool, then randomly form the earth. This, in simple common sense terms, is impossible.

2)The Age of the Sun (Russian Sun Study and Earth's Magnetic Field)

For the theory of evolution to be possible, the sun had to have existed throughout the duration of the evolutionary time scale. Life as we know it could not have developed or exist without the sun in tow. A study was done on the sun by Russian scientists. Based on the sun's rate of nuclear fusion, the Russian scientists found the sun to be 10,000-30,000 years old.

Also supporting young age is the strength of the earth's magnetic field. Scientists have found that the magnetic field is reducing in strength at a rapid rate, with a half life of about 1,400 years. If that rate is reversed, the strength of the earth's magnetic field 20,000 years ago would be that of a magnetic star. This supports Earth's young age, as appose to evolution's over estimation.

3)Population Statistics

This science is above all the most convincing. As you can see in the chart of population growth, the human population stays relatividly stable until there is an excessive amount of exponential growth. According to evolution, humans appeared 200,000 years ago, and the modern human 40,000 years ago. The application of population growth rate has been estimated at 2%, yet it has been shown to be 1%. Every 82 years, one-third of the population is wiped out by disease, war, etc. If these rules are applied, over the course of 41,000 years, according to the observed science of population statistics, there would be 2x10^89 humans in existence today. In other words, 200000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000. The current population is 6900000. There is not enough room on earth to hold this many bodies.

This is not conjecture. This is a science of population statistics. Evolution does not conform to this.

4)McFall & Taylor Trail Footprints

These two trails have both dinosaur and human foot prints. For one, dinosaurs are, according to evolution millions of years old. These fossils should be underground to coordinate with the evolutionary time scale. However, the very fact that these fossils are on the surface is cause for disproof. Also, there is one particular footprint which has a human footprint inside of a dinosaur footprint. This shows that humans and dinosaurs existed recently and in the same period, which evolution is quite contradictory to.

5)Lysosome

Lysosome contain enzymes that are used to break down material and get it ready for disposal. All of these enzymes work best at a low pH, reducing the risk that these enzymes will digest the very cell they are contained in should they somehow escape from the lysosome. Keep in mind that the pH of water, from which all life spring from (according to evolution) has a pH of 7. The cell could not house these enzymes without the membrane. The conundrum of getting the enzymes inside of the membrane, or the membrane around the enzymes, or the membrane evolving, then the enzyme getting on the inside, or the enzyme evolving, then the membrane around it, is a very far stretched possibility. This is so far stretched, that it is impossible.

If the enzymes develop before the membrane, the membrane would be broken down by enzymes from the outside. If the membrane evolves before the enzymes, either the membrane is already closed and is consumed by the enzyme or the enzyme develops inside the membrane, at which point would contain water instead of cell fluid. The membrane, at that point, would be consumed from the inside out because of pH.

7)The Digestive System

If we were to take away the bile lining our digestive system, the stomach acid would burn through the cell lining, and thus leak into the rest of the body, and be detrimental to survival. The process of evolution takes billion of years. An unprotected cell, if dropped in this acid, would be instantly killed. Early cells that might try to contain this acid or who merely come in contact with this acid will be instantly killed. This instant kill leaves no time to adapt. A cell cannot adapt to something it does not come in regular contact with. Just one contact is enough to kill the cell. Furthermore, our stomach acid is weak when compared to other animals, such as vultures.

Also, this is an issue similar to lysosome and their enzymes. Stomach acid would not be able to be contained. Evolution cannot explain how stomach acid ended up in the first stomach.

The Probability of Cell Development

A cell, at minimum, has 60,000 proteins of which there are 100 different configurations. There are, on top of this, very complex cells and an enumeration of cell types. The chance of the random, unorchestrated assembly of a cell is 1 in 104,478,296. This is so far stretched, that it is practically impossible.

If I were debating mutation like I was in my last piece, you could find a way around my arguments. We both evolutionist and creationists would have been debating conjectures on how evolution would compensate for difficulties in generating positive adaptations. However, most of these are either facts or a science, not conjecture. There is no way to conjecture around these. Maybe, possibly, you could provide a far stretched explanation for lysosome and the digestive system because it is your arena on development of the organism. You might also debate your way around the big band explanation. However, the rest are facts and science that evolution cannot get around, and they are facts which make evolution an impossibility. However, if you do have observed facts that contradict what is above, please elaborate on these facts.

The man in sunglasses is actually the number 8. I do not understand how this came to be this way.

Also, in reference to population statistics, the figure of 2x10^89 is derived from starting from just beginning with just 2 humans modern day humans and continuing procreation from 41,000 years ago to present day (as I already said, 41,000 is derived from the theory of evolution, which sais that the modern human appeared 40,000 years ago.

For the 8 ) becoming a man in sunglasses, it is because you have BBcode (the forum formatting language) activated. And it is interpreted thusly (I put a space in mine to avoid that0, you can also create a by typing :_D without the underscore. Or you could uncheck BBcode when you type your message.

To go to your post:1) Nothing to do with evolution, just with basic physics. Well we have a problem here, because it is quite off topic.2)So there is one study that says that. What about all the other that disagree?3) You understand that humans are not bacteria. Mating are not binary fission. And, I know that this will come as a shock, they do mate with people they are related to. A quick look on any of the genealogic tree of a European royal family would show you some interesting things... But beware it is hardcore.4) irrefutable, eh?5) Nice grasp of things like protein migration, signaling, and cell biology in general.6) Truly I have no word about that one. But not convinced by a certain ... hmmmm... lack of argumentation, shall I say.7) gradual modifications, does that mean anything to you? I suppose not.8- Impressive use of meaning less statistics. Evolution is NOT a series of independent events.

Patrick

Science has proof without any certainty. Creationists have certainty without
any proof. (Ashley Montague)

First of all, this has nothing to do with biology, but never minds.Second, you have obviously huge gaps not only in biology, but also in chemistry and other sciences. I'm just curious, where is the level of education so bad? And I thought that the education in Czech Rep is already so bad.I know it makes no sense to reply to you, since you will not accept any new data, but for the case someone else would read it, here are some comments.

1) You're wrong, that there is no fusion in nature, just look into stars. The heavier atoms are formed in supernovas. And BTW big bang has nothing to do with this.

2) where did you get that?

3) 7 millions of people on Earth? Even Czech Republic has more citizens

4) this one again?

5) what exactly is the reason, why membrane could not be first? How does it work in bacteria?

canalon:1)It has everything to do with it. There have to be atoms before there can be a chemical revolution. The big bang nor evolution offers plausible theories for this.

2)If there are studies that you know about which disagree, I would appreciate if you could name them or the scientists instead of just saying that there are experiments that disagree.

3)Yes, people mate with people they are related to. We call it "kissing cousins". In Europe, they are called bloods. Also, i know that humans do not mate by binary fission. None of this is shocking to me. What exactly are you trying to say?

Again, population statistics is a science, not conjecture. 1% growth, every 82 years 1/3 dies, and if you being with 2 modern humans from 41,000 years ago (evolution sais the modern human appeared 40,000 years ago; this obviously means they are using todays system of mating, which is procreation through sexual intercourse), then you will end up with 2x10^89 in todays population. Thats 2 with 89 zeros behind it. Todays population has only 7 digits. There is not enough space on earth for this many bodies.

I would say show me the facts or the science, but there is only one science of population statistics, and evolution is impossible because it contradicts that science.

4)The tracks are human. The site admits that here are toe marks, and a cup in the heel like human footprint should be. There are human footprints in that area.

Also, evolution sais that dinosaurs existed 230 mill to 65 mill years ago. Therefore, these prints should be under the ground. Just the very fact that these prints are on the surfact disproves evolution.

5)It seems this is a fact you cannot get around.

6)There is no no. 6 is there? funny.

7)I said "However, if you do have observed facts that contradict what is above, please elaborate on these facts." Instead, I received a smart remark.

Both of use are still left with the fact that evolution occurs over millions of years. How can the cell adapt to something, with bile production, that kills it instantly? The answer to this is that it is impossible. Acid works instantly to burn through the body if it is not contained in the stomach. Early stomachs could not have developed with the issue of obtaining stomach acid.

8)Ah, but you see, it is. How does one event in evolution influences another? If one organism was unable to obtain stomach acid, how does this affect the next organism? Its not like they connect telepathically and exchange why they were not able to do so. Genetics in one organism are isolated from the next organism, and they do not communicate and help correct each other. Where there is a difficulty, such as the lysosome and the stomach acid, all organisms are affected by this. The individual must evolve to pass on a gene with a complete digestive system. The collective of early organisms do not evolve in close proximity and thus effect each other's ability to overcome these difficulties. Obviously, the individual cannot spontaneously evolve this because stomach acid, if not contained, burns through the body.

Evolution is a mass of conjectures, not observed facts or events. You obviously conjecture that evolution is an interconnected event because it favors your theory.

This statistic is fact. It shows that the possibility of cell development by random, unorchestrated chemical revolution is so low, that its practically impossible. So instead of showing an experiment where this was replicated, or presenting solid facts which show that it is possible, you call the statistic meaningless.

Also, to canalon: you obviously could not face the fact and conjecture your way around it. This fact does not allow carbon and other elements to form. Therefore, you simply state that this is off subject.

2)I read it 2 years ago on http://www.biologynews.net. The study was published in a prominent science journal in England. I forgot the name and simpy retained the fact ofthe age of the sun. I have searched for it again and have not been able to find it, especially considering I forgot the name of the science journal and it was 2 years ago.

3)Obviously, I put 7 million instead of 6.9 billion. Instead of focusing on the mistake, I would appreciate if you could focus on the science of population statistics and the fact that evolution simply isnt viable considering the date oof our appearance. The number again is 2x10^89 people after 41,000 years of procreation via sexual reproduction, 1% growth rate, and a 1/3 death every 82 years (these numbers are derived from the proven, observed science of population statistics).

4)http://www.bible.ca/tracks/tracks.htmKeep in mind that you can put the general topic in google, and many results appear which only deal with this subject. Also, canalon made the argument that these prints arent human, even though there are toe marks and the cup of the heel is present. However, even if they are not toe marks, and they are dinosaur footprints, the very fact that dinosaur foot prints are on the surface shows that they existed recently. Also, they should be deep in the earth because of evolution's geological time scale.

These footprints disprove evolution.

5)If the membrane comes first, then the enzyme cannot enter into the membrane. There is one very far out way this is possible, and that is for the membrane to capture a part of the chemical sludge so that the enzymes may evolve within the membrane. This is a far stretched impossibility. Also, the enzymes operate best at low pH. The cell, being that it "evolved" in the sea, would have captured water, which has a pH of 7. This would allow the enzymes to digest the membrane which is supposed to contain them.

Bacteria is a separate issue that I am not debating, and must look into. Right now, I am presenting the modern day presence of lysosome, which evolution cannot explain how it got into the cell or membrane.

6)Again, I messed up on the numbering. funny.

7)Again, cells in the stomach are adapted to stomach acid through bile production. How did a cell, that would be instantly killed by stomach acid, have a gradual genetic adaptation? The cell would be dead before it can even begin to "evolve".

8)I think I need to iterate something: the possibility is 1 in 104,478,296. This percentage possibility is 0.000000009% possibility. There is a thing about probability: if it is stretched to the point of 0.000000009%, it is practically impossible. 1 in 104,478,296 does not mean that 1 in every 104,478,296 events, the cell will develop. This means that for each event, it has a 1 in 104,478,296 chance, or a 0.0000000009% chance of evolving. This makes the cell evolution practically impossible.

canalon & Jackbean: No. 1,3,4,5,7, & 8 are facts that you simply cannot get around. I am waiting for a response on number 2.

5 & 7 are in you realm of conjecture and biological development. Therefore, for whatever problems arise in the development, you simply conjecture around them instead of facing the stretched probability to the point of impossibility. My point of possibility is made in 8, where the chance for each event, which is individual, is 1 in 104,478,296 or 0.000000009%. This is, again, a statistic you cannot compensate for or conjecture around.

The science of population statistics, dinosaur footprints on the surface, the formation of elements with a atomic number of 2 or above, the young age of the sun (waiting for a response), the practical impossibility of the random, unorchestrated combination of chemicals that bring about life, and the reversed rate of deterioration of the earth's magnetic field showing earth's young age (unmentioned by either of you).

Obviously, I had to get it from a creationist site because evolutionists would never talk about the earth's magnetic field on a website, much less in person (evolutionists tend to turn away when I mention the population statistics and magnetic field) because it disproves the theory.

Also, to canalon: you obviously could not face the fact and conjecture your way around it. This fact does not allow carbon and other elements to form. Therefore, you simply state that this is off subject.

You obviously don't know, how planets formed. Interesting, that you care only about the carbon, but other even heavier elements don't bother you.

Tomn wrote:2)I read it 2 years ago on http://www.biologynews.net. The study was published in a prominent science journal in England. I forgot the name and simpy retained the fact ofthe age of the sun. I have searched for it again and have not been able to find it, especially considering I forgot the name of the science journal and it was 2 years ago.

I see. So you want from us perfect citations about hings, which are in every textbook, but you cannot find single citation about such radical thing as sun being 40k years old.

Tomn wrote:3)Obviously, I put 7 million instead of 6.9 billion. Instead of focusing on the mistake, I would appreciate if you could focus on the science of population statistics and the fact that evolution simply isnt viable considering the date oof our appearance. The number again is 2x10^89 people after 41,000 years of procreation via sexual reproduction, 1% growth rate, and a 1/3 death every 82 years (these numbers are derived from the proven, observed science of population statistics).

As canalon told you, we are not bacteria. I don't understand much to your numbers in the first post. However, I would say the finnal number depends on the original population size

Tomn wrote:4)http://www.bible.ca/tracks/tracks.htmKeep in mind that you can put the general topic in google, and many results appear which only deal with this subject. Also, canalon made the argument that these prints arent human, even though there are toe marks and the cup of the heel is present. However, even if they are not toe marks, and they are dinosaur footprints, the very fact that dinosaur foot prints are on the surface shows that they existed recently. Also, they should be deep in the earth because of evolution's geological time scale.

Tomn wrote:5)If the membrane comes first, then the enzyme cannot enter into the membrane. There is one very far out way this is possible, and that is for the membrane to capture a part of the chemical sludge so that the enzymes may evolve within the membrane. This is a far stretched impossibility. Also, the enzymes operate best at low pH. The cell, being that it "evolved" in the sea, would have captured water, which has a pH of 7. This would allow the enzymes to digest the membrane which is supposed to contain them.

Bacteria is a separate issue that I am not debating, and must look into. Right now, I am presenting the modern day presence of lysosome, which evolution cannot explain how it got into the cell or membrane.

Canalon was right, you have no clue about protein trafficking and stuff. Bacteria is much relevant, because if they are ancestors of eukaryotes, then you should look them up, whether they have lysosome-like organels. Of course, we know that bacteria do not have membrane-bound organelles, but their plasmamembrane makes infolding, which may lead to membrane-enclosed organelles.

Tomn wrote:8)I think I need to iterate something: the possibility is 1 in 104,478,296. This percentage possibility is 0.000000009% possibility. There is a thing about probability: if it is stretched to the point of 0.000000009%, it is practically impossible. 1 in 104,478,296 does not mean that 1 in every 104,478,296 events, the cell will develop. This means that for each event, it has a 1 in 104,478,296 chance, or a 0.0000000009% chance of evolving. This makes the cell evolution practically impossible.

At least, I know now, where you have this number from. Just for curiosity, how does 1 in 104,478,296 transform into 0.000000009%?You think you say that something is "practically impossible" and that's enough for rejecting evolution, but it's not. You should consider (although I know you won't) there are (usually) millions of individuals of each species thus the chance is not that low.

1) Nuclear fusion does occur in nature. It happens at the center of any star. The first stars contained only hydorogen and a little helium. Nuclear fusion in stars builds up heavier elements. Nuclear fusion has been directly studied in the laboratory, so we understand it in great detail.

Large massive stars quickly fuse nuclei at a quick rate, and relatively quickly will explode as a supernova. The explosion does two things. It generates elements heavier than iron, and it disperses material out into the cosmos away from the supernova. That is, it puts heavy elements out into space.

Later, other stars and planets will form from the interstellar gas that now has heavier elements in it. Every atom of heavy elements (such as carbon, iron, gold, etc.) was formed either at the center of a star in its normal lifetime, or in its explosion as a supernova.

Fred Hoyle worked this out in detail in the 1950s.

2) Even the first estimates of the age of the Sun by Lord Kelvin in the 19th century (before nuclear fusion was know) gave an estimate bigger than 30000 years.

The Earth's magnetic field varies all the time. You can't extraploate indefinitely from a short-term trend. The mechansim of the Earth's magnetic field is fairly well understood. It has been investigated with numerical simulations on a computer, and it has been investigated experimentally laboratory-scale models.

4) I have seen fossilized dinosaur footprints. I have not seen any fossilized human footprints. If you look at enough rocks or mud, you can find any shape you want. I saw a potato chip that looked exactly like Bob Hope.

There is a lava flow on Mars that looks like Kermit the frog. That doesn't mean anything either.

....

This one is more interesting. There is no "unorchestrated assembly". Calculating probablilities for "unorchestraed assembly" is meaningless because the assembly of atoms into molecules, and molecules into larger systems, happens according to the laws of physics and chemistry. The configurations the atoms and molecules can take are highly constrained by the laws of nature. Molecules don't form randonly. They form as a result of the working out of the principles of chemistry.

JackBean: 1)I especially emphasize carbon because it is necessary to life. However, I did mention "The science of population statistics, dinosaur footprints on the surface, the formation of elements with a atomic number of 2 or above . . ."

I admit I did mention this on the side, but I am also concerned with the formation of any element with an atomic number of 2 or more (the atomic number is equal to the number of protons). You point the fact that I did not emphasize this as if its an argument of some sort, but its not. You just accentuated how much more difficult it is for this universe to form.

You said "You obviously don't know, how planets formed."Its not that I dont know. Its just that I dont say the same thing that you say, which I am assuming is the big bang. If you want to thoroughly debate this, I will be talking the big band in the big bang string on a thread. However, I will elaborate on this one point: there is a halo ring of radiation in granite. The radiation disappears almost instantly when the rock is heated. The big bang states that the earth was formed by the earth beginning as a heated mass which cooled over time. However, granite today can be found with this radiation in it.

2)I never ask for perfect citation. I only ask for the name of the experiment or experimenter or both or a link. I only ask for this when you guys say something like "There are plenty of experiments that show the suns age is 3.5 billion years old." Only when you just say something without naming an example or link or experimenter or experiment name. And when new information is presented, I ask for an explanation right here in the forum. Not for some citation.

And it was you who I argued with about sickle cell anemia as a positive mutation.Never did I ask for a link on this. Also, it was you who dropped out of the conversation because im "improbable". However, yo dropped out because you could only present your conjecture but could not provide viable explanation that I could not find a problem with.

Furthermore, in the first place, this has nothing to do with the argument. You are just trying to make me out to be hypocritical. I would appreciate if we could debate the facts.

3)I'm going to explain it again. The science of population statistics sais that every 82 years, 1/3 of the population dies from war, disease, etc. and that there is a 1% population growth rate throughout history although it is said to be 2. Evolution sais that the modern human appeared 40,000 years ago. STARTING WITH 2 modern day humans 41,000 years ago, with a 1% population growth and 1/3 die every 82 years, and the humans, being that that they're modern day, are utilizing procreation through sexual reproduction. The population, when grown from just 2 humans, and when the proven and observed rules of population statistics are applied, the population today would be 2x10^89, or 2 with 89 zeros behind it.

Again, these numbers are derived from population statistics. Population statistics is a science that is entirely based on observation and the direct replication of what we see today and in history. You could easily look up population statistics in google, and the science of population statistics would be the same regardless of where you find it.

4)I know what geological folding is. I know how geology works, and I know that the evolutionist excuse for this inconsistency is that earth quakes cause some layers to arise to the topsoil, which is essentially because tectonic plates shift up, down, converge, diverge, and crash to create mountains. I know about tectonics and geology. I know that this could cause fossils to be misplaced.

Yes earthquakes can cause displacement of fossils, but the real question is has this occurred in the Taylor and McFall trails? Obviously, if this hasnt occurred there, then how could it be applied to this situation? Because if it has not occurred there, then it does not apply.

5)You said "Bacteria is much relevant, because if they are ancestors of eukaryotes,"With evolution, things get more complex. It is the other way around. Bacteria, which is more simple, came before eukaryotes.

Again, I am debating LYSOSOME, NOT BACTERIA! I would appreciate if I could get an explanation on how evolution sais how this impossible thing happened. Obviously, I think this is impossible by evolution because these enzymes and the membrane evolve separately. The question is how did one get inside the other? I am asking for an explanation, and neither you nor evolution has given one. I am still asking for an explanation.

6)If I were to say that the chance is 1 out of 4, its the same as 1/4. When 1 is divided by 4, you get the percent, which is 25%. When you divide 1 by 104,478,296, you get 9.571 e-9, which is 9x10^-9, or 0.000000009%.

I think you need to look at what Im talking about. The probability of CELL FORMATION. The probability of cells developing from a chemical slosh, which is what evolution sais the first cells came from.

I appreciate the debate, but I would like that you should reframe from insult. I could have long ago called you ignorant because of your incorrect english, but this is not kind, it is not nice, it is not good. I do not see what makes it right for yo to do so.

Tomn wrote:JackBean: 1)I especially emphasize carbon because it is necessary to life. However, I did mention "The science of population statistics, dinosaur footprints on the surface, the formation of elements with a atomic number of 2 or above . . ."

Nuclear fusion. What's so complicated about it?

Tomn wrote:3)I'm going to explain it again. The science of population statistics sais that every 82 years, 1/3 of the population dies from war, disease, etc. and that there is a 1% population growth rate throughout history although it is said to be 2. Evolution sais that the modern human appeared 40,000 years ago. STARTING WITH 2 modern day humans 41,000 years ago, with a 1% population growth and 1/3 die every 82 years, and the humans, being that that they're modern day, are utilizing procreation through sexual reproduction. The population, when grown from just 2 humans, and when the proven and observed rules of population statistics are applied, the population today would be 2x10^89, or 2 with 89 zeros behind it.

So how exactly are you calculating this? There seem to be several mathematical errors and incorrect assumptions here. If there is a 1% population growth rate and "1/3 die every 82 years", how does your equation work? Even more seriously, from where are you getting these statistics? Using modern-day growth rates, or historical records?

Why is it that your signature demands "facts, observed events, plausible explanations, and solid evidence", yet these seem to be nearly always absent from your posts?

Tomn wrote:4)I know what geological folding is. I know how geology works, and I know that the evolutionist excuse for this inconsistency is that earth quakes cause some layers to arise to the topsoil, which is essentially because tectonic plates shift up, down, converge, diverge, and crash to create mountains. I know about tectonics and geology. I know that this could cause fossils to be misplaced.

Yes earthquakes can cause displacement of fossils, but the real question is has this occurred in the Taylor and McFall trails? Obviously, if this hasnt occurred there, then how could it be applied to this situation? Because if it has not occurred there, then it does not apply.

I don't know enough about this topic, so I will not comment on this.

Tomn wrote:5)You said "Bacteria is much relevant, because if they are ancestors of eukaryotes,"With evolution, things get more complex. It is the other way around. Bacteria, which is more simple, came before eukaryotes.

Again, I am debating LYSOSOME, NOT BACTERIA! I would appreciate if I could get an explanation on how evolution sais how this impossible thing happened. Obviously, I think this is impossible by evolution because these enzymes and the membrane evolve separately. The question is how did one get inside the other? I am asking for an explanation, and neither you nor evolution has given one. I am still asking for an explanation.

This is such a simple question, yet when others have provided correct answers and even elaborated them greatly when asked to do so, you still do not seem to understand? What, do you think you know more than all the others on this forum?

I will explain again: this is not an issue of evolution, but rather protein kinesis. Lysosomes are buddings of the Golgi apparatus, and lysosomal enzymes are trafficked from the Golgi to the budding lysosome.

Tomn wrote:6)If I were to say that the chance is 1 out of 4, its the same as 1/4. When 1 is divided by 4, you get the percent, which is 25%. When you divide 1 by 104,478,296, you get 9.571 e-9, which is 9x10^-9, or 0.000000009%.

I think you need to look at what Im talking about. The probability of CELL FORMATION. The probability of cells developing from a chemical slosh, which is what evolution sais the first cells came from.

Please stop pulling statistics out of nowhere. Are you trying to prove the improbability of the formation of double-membrane-enclosed structures? If so, then I would consider that it is not difficult to do so. If you drop phospholipids into water, it will spontaneously associate into double-membrane structures called liposomes. Fox proposed a mechanism for the formation of protobionts from liposomes.