Wow a lot of people took the opportunity to toss the existence of God under the bus even though clearly that's not what the discussion was supposed to be about, and on the other side a lot of people made completely circular arguments.

Lets try some logic. Presupposing the existence of an omnipotent god, does not presuppose that you do not have free will. I can keep my dog on a leash and out of trouble, but I can choose to let him loose knowing he'll dig up the neighbor's yard while having the chance to run explore and sniff other dogs. An omnipotent god can choose to exercise his own free will, and allow people to do as they will, even though he knows what will happen.

On a related point (I want to say it was William James who came up with this but I'm sure that's wrong), You might as well believe in free will, since if you don't have it believing you do won't change anything, but if you do have free will and believe you don't you'll never make a decision.

Shut up, dog. When you can't even prove that you believe in anything, because there's no natural proof of a supernatural being to begin with. While there's no such thing as in presupposing in logic, because then there will be no relevancy of anything.

Wow a lot of people took the opportunity to toss the existence of God under the bus even though clearly that's not what the discussion was supposed to be about, and on the other side a lot of people made completely circular arguments.

Lets try some logic. Presupposing the existence of an omnipotent god, does not presuppose that you do not have free will. I can keep my dog on a leash and out of trouble, but I can choose to let him loose knowing he'll dig up the neighbor's yard while having the chance to run explore and sniff other dogs. An omnipotent god can choose to exercise his own free will, and allow people to do as they will, even though he knows what will happen.

On a related point (I want to say it was William James who came up with this but I'm sure that's wrong), You might as well believe in free will, since if you don't have it believing you do won't change anything, but if you do have free will and believe you don't you'll never make a decision.

Yea but the thing is, if you MADE your dog, you ARE the reason he digs up yards and sniff other dogs

We were created in his reflection. Adam and Eve had free will and they choose to ate from the tree. God wants us to follow him because we do it from the bottom of our hearts and not becuase we have to. God does not chose our path, in fact the one who reigns over this system of things is Satan.

We were created in his reflection. Adam and Eve had free will and they choose to ate from the tree. God wants us to follow him because we do it from the bottom of our hearts and not becuase we have to. God does not chose our path, in fact the one who reigns over this system of things is Satan.

'And do you have any evidence for this very shallow assumption?' What gives you this idea that such a god thinks the way your trying to portray it does. Your opinion is the same trash people feed their kids, but is based off from what?"

Did you even stop to question anything you just said.. Or do you just accept it as truth without even any understanding of the reality around you? (simple enough questions for you.)

I like to believe God has an infinite number of futures planed, and what we chose eliminates the other paths we could have taken, each choice is free will, but the results of them are completely planned.

I like to believe God has an infinite number of futures planed, and what we chose eliminates the other paths we could have taken, each choice is free will, but the results of them are completely planned.

I agree with this.

In that case, the only downside to that scenario is the fact that those who didn't like the prearranged path they've ended up chosen due to their bad decision making process. So instead of them owning their individual responsibility of their cognitive actions, they blame the one who prearranged the future for them. And still, this is all due to not of their willingness to choose, but their desire to escape with the easier choices; God's.

We were created in his reflection. Adam and Eve had free will and they choose to ate from the tree. God wants us to follow him because we do it from the bottom of our hearts and not becuase we have to. God does not chose our path, in fact the one who reigns over this system of things is Satan.

'And do you have any evidence for this very shallow assumption?' What gives you this idea that such a god thinks the way your trying to portray it does. Your opinion is the same trash people feed their kids, but is based off from what?"

Did you even stop to question anything you just said.. Or do you just accept it as truth without even any understanding of the reality around you? (simple enough questions for you.)

My assumption is based on faith, I admit i have no concrete proof that a god exists. This assumption is based on years of reading the bible, but i also admit that there is no factual information about the existence of God nor can i provide any info. Again all of this is based on faith that what i read on the bible is true. I must admit you sound too judgemental towards people who believe this way, why would you assume i'm ignorant or just like everyone else who is religious. You might be a very smart man but your downfall might be thinking that people who don't agree with your logic are stupid.

We were created in his reflection. Adam and Eve had free will and they choose to ate from the tree. God wants us to follow him because we do it from the bottom of our hearts and not becuase we have to. God does not chose our path, in fact the one who reigns over this system of things is Satan.

'And do you have any evidence for this very shallow assumption?' What gives you this idea that such a god thinks the way your trying to portray it does. Your opinion is the same trash people feed their kids, but is based off from what?"

Did you even stop to question anything you just said.. Or do you just accept it as truth without even any understanding of the reality around you? (simple enough questions for you.)

My assumption is based on faith, I admit i have no concrete proof that a god exists. This assumption is based on years of reading the bible, but i also admit that there is no factual information about the existence of God nor can i provide any info. Again all of this is based on faith that what i read on the bible is true. I must admit you sound too judgemental towards people who believe this way, why would you assume i'm ignorant or just like everyone else who is religious. You might be a very smart man but your downfall might be thinking that people who don't agree with your logic are stupid.

My judge-mentality is only on those that pass assumptions as facts, I was targeting your wording with your statement. I assume you understand the difference between opinions based off from assumptions and opinions based off from proven facts. An so one should always make it clear to those they speak to if their opinions are based from facts or assumptions/how you come to that opinion. Otherwise your remarks will be a lot like those creationist who make claim based On misinformation and falsified information to suet there agenda. AKA their attack on science and 100 of years of compounded evidence and research just to pass a false and proven wrong claim as fact.

Deftones1079wrote:
My assumption is based on faith, I admit i have no concrete proof that a god exists. This assumption is based on years of reading the bible, but i also admit that there is no factual information about the existence of God nor can i provide any info. Again all of this is based on faith that what i read on the bible is true. I must admit you sound too judgemental towards people who believe this way, why would you assume i'm ignorant or just like everyone else who is religious. You might be a very smart man but your downfall might be thinking that people who don't agree with your logic are stupid.

You are entitled to an opinion, yet, is it necessary to give it at risk of sharing a judgement as well?

Having faith is being convinced w/o a doubt, & although others may question you, or pressure you for proof-- if they want proof, let them go dig it up.

Darkphoenix3450wrote:
My judge-mentality is only on those that pass assumptions as facts, I was targeting your wording with your statement. I assume you understand the difference between opinions based off from assumptions and opinions based off from proven facts. An so one should always make it clear to those they speak to if their opinions are based from facts or assumptions/how you come to that opinion. Otherwise your remarks will be a lot like those creationist who make claim based On misinformation and falsified information to suet there agenda. AKA their attack on science and 100 of years of compounded evidence and research just to pass a false and proven wrong claim as fact.

You & I've had our 'discussions' w/ this topic before, but this thread's topic was a question about free will w/ the assumption God does exist!

So many believe only the print in their Bible-- hit & miss, they bit & piece it together, w/o questioning or understanding.....

When considered as a whole, from Genesis to Revelation, one should begin to understand God has been putting a plan into motion. He set the 'rules from the very beginning-- it can be summed up with this one idea-- unconditional love. It is what God wants to give to us. It is what He asks in return. When we indulge in selfish acts of self 'love', we are in discord with the plan. God does not have to set up rules for each & every personal act or choice. The consequences for disobedience (sin) are already in place. Therefore, the idea of whether everyone's decision is known by God beforehand means there really can't be any freedom of choice needs to be reevaluated.

Here, try this--
We all have the freedom to choose our life's course. We all have the right to believe in God or not, whether to follow & obey His plan & rules for us. Each & every choice we could possibly make is already factored in to the plan God has already put into place.

So, it's not so much God knowing ahead of time what we'll do or choose (tho I'm sure an omniscient God does), as it is about Him already knowing the outcome of any & all possible decisions. The wages of sin is death.The outcome of faith is salvation. We are free to choose, to believe or not.