September 27, 2004

MINSTREL SHOW AMONG BLACK YOUTH???

One of the topics of discussion that infuriates me the most is this belief that black kids have an aversion to studying or ostracize others because it is seen as “acting white”. Where are the studies and polls that quantify this as epidemic or pandemic among black youth? This is simply a rumor, that is becoming, if not already, a self fulfilling prophecy.

All rumors usually have some grain of truth associated with them and this “acting white” rumor is likely no exception. However, I fail to accept this as being more than a minor issue or cause in the reason why many black youths are not getting their lesson. Others seem to have jumped on the rumor bandwagon, propagating the belief that this is a major reason for blacks not getting educated. I saw a segment on PBS news, where Clarence Page lamented on this phenomenon, giving reference to Obama’s mentioning of it at the democratic national convention. Is this a new "urban legend"?

The way human psychology works is that if enough people are saying that something is true, people start to believe that it is true over time. It is very likely that black youth are hearing all these grown folks and leaders saying that “acting white” is what is is called when black kids try to be learned. Thus, the prophecy fulfills itself when black youth then start parroting this, when they encounter someone into the books. Lots of kids just repeat what they think adults want to hear. They myth might be creating the reality.

I do know that there exist the phenomenon of blacks accusing other blacks of acting white…but it is not due to intelligence and learning. I know this because I have seem blacks I thought were guilty of this myself…acting white, that is. It was the way in which they dressed and pronounced certain words or other subtle things that they did. There is a distinct voice pattern that is black, that has nothing to do with whether or not the person is using the kings English or not. Most black people can recognize other black people simply from the sound of their voice. When you start emulating the white voice pattern…then you are bound to be accused of acting white. This is especially true if one has been immersed in the black culture.

More importantly, this acting white myth is hiding the real problems. For black males growing up, respect is the ubiquitous goal of all. You want to be able to carry yourself in a way the deters aggressors and gains respect, because of the nature of the community that many blacks are raised in. Therefore, studying is often seen as making one look “weak” because that is not what the people who get respected do. The streets sets the tone for respect…not the classroom. Thus, if you are at home studying and not in the streets you are very likely to be seen as a target for attack and if you are seen as a target and weak, your chance in competition for the attention of the females is greatly reduced also. Hence, the real problem is that black males see getting your lesson and studying as “acting weak” more so than “acting white”.

The thing is that youth are growing up under the promotion of a “thug” culture. Being and acting hard, to gain respect and to fit in with the perceived culture is the problem. This is why black folks be looking at each other all crazy these days. Too many folks are trying to establish themselves are being “hard”, in order to get respect. It is hard to pass off being a thug or looking hard if you got books under your arm and you raising your hand and asking questions in class…rather, you are looking the opposite. That does not have a damn thing to do with “acting white”.

There are many more issues that keep blacks from putting more effort into learning, namely lack of interest due to the fact that they see so many blacks reach success without education via sports and entertainment. They see such black folk 24 7. While they rarely see any black folks who made fame and fortune through their studies. Thus, many blacks youth do not place a lot of interest in education…because they are under the false impression that they can be one of the one in a million who can make it via sports or music.

It sickens and saddens me to hear respected black leaders and people perpetuating this rumor of the plague of “acting white” is what is bounding so many of our youth. That only serves to boost the egos of white folks to think that blacks look at them as being intelligent….while considering our own people and culture to be one of ignorance and stupidity.

21 Comments:

This is on point, I have stated several times that acting white does not have anything to do with ones education or willingness to study and have everything to do with how a Black person enunciate words and as you noted their speech pattern and mannerisms. You will also notice that most of those who say they have been accused of such really do have mannerism that are inherently white and they always equate being accused of acting white with them being so-called educated. Black men and women have been speaking the English language properly for decades without any accusation of acting white, this new rumor as you called it is being perpetuated by Negro men and women who are not Afro-centric in thought or behavior nor have they witnessed a child say to another child you are acting white because you are studying. This is definitely one rumor that needs to squashed. It is always funny when I meet a black person that is involved intimately with a white person, all his or her friends are white and then they say they are accused of acting white because they are educated, what a joke!!

That's exactly how this stuff gets started. Some Negro wanting acceptance starts saying this stuff out-of-context or with their (mis)perceived gripes and them and their White buddies go on castigating crusades and have the nerve to try to run that BS by Black people who can, as Noah did, testify to the actual-factual.

I've always said/asked to the extent or rather saying that if "Acting White" was true? What would make it any different than being labeled a "nerd" or otherwise uncool?

All I get from Whites is some feable attempt that says the Negroes this is supposedly directed at don't feel accepted and somehow just feel like they have to drop their studies (and common sense) just to fit-in.

The problem really is all about people's mannerisms and/or attitudes - e.g. speech patterns, etc. This does pose a problem and there can be a loose correlation because Black kids that tend to exhibit these mannerisms (speaking "proper" - as in with a 'suburbian' accent) tend to be "more" educated.

I do recall on AA.org one of the brothers there saying that his kids dealt with that specifically... (and I think it was the whole speech thing that set that off).

Overall, I've always maintained that, of course, this is not epidemic and that Black people don't devalue education in that way because we are the first to congratulate and take pride in those among us, family or otherwise, who exhibit excellence.

For the few that are "haters"...I'm still trying to see how it is we're suppose to define ourselves, as I say, by The "Least" Among Us.I mean... White people don't define themselves by the dysfunction in their communities nor do they project the (social mal-adjustment) problems of "White Trash" as indicative of who they are as White people.

You brothers tell it! That’s the real deal! Juxtapose the way that Bryant Gumble speaks to the way in which Michael Dyson speaks. No one can accuse Michael Dyson of “acting or sounding white”. He is grammatically impeccable, verbose, intelligent and articulate…but with a distinct “black flavor” in his speech patterns and enunciations. Mr., Gumble, on the other hand, sounds and acts like he’s white. It has nothing to do with intelligence…its all in the presentation and delivery…it is the form and not the substance.

This rumor really irks me, because when blacks say this around whites, whites simply eat it up as the truth and it gives the person stating such instant acceptance from white liberals or conservatives. Barak Obama played the “acting white” card at the democratic nation convention and became the black star. These are the type of rare exceptions to the general rule that out of tough Negroes play to the white audience to win cross-over support. If you got to be wrong or disingenuous to cross over…then maybe crossing over is not what our people need.

[Where are the studies and polls that quantify this as epidemic or pandemic among black youth? ]

Rich, Black, Flunking Cal Professor John Ogbu thinks he knows why rich black kids are failing in school. Nobody wants to hear it.http://www.eastbayexpress.com/issues/2003-05-21/feature.html/1/index.html" Ogbu concluded that the average black student in Shaker Heights put little effort into schoolwork and was part of a peer culture that looked down on academic success as "acting white." Although he noted that other factors also play a role, and doesn't deny that there may be antiblack sentiment in the district, he concluded that discrimination alone could not explain the gap.

"The black parents feel it is their role to move to Shaker Heights, pay the higher taxes so their kids could graduate from Shaker, and that's where their role stops," Ogbu says during an interview at his home in the Oakland hills. "They believe the school system should take care of the rest. They didn't supervise their children that much. They didn't make sure their children did their homework. That's not how other ethnic groups think."

Ogbu contended that in contrast to autonomous and immigrant minorities, who have an instrumental attitude that impels them to overcome barriers and achieve success, castelike minorities tend to dismiss majority group standards of success and develop alternative strategies for survival (Ogbu, 1985).

In what was arguably his most widely known work, Ogbu and Signithia Fordham (1986) analyzed the affective dimensions of the relationship between Black and White Americans and the implications of this relationship for educational achievement and aspirations. Building on Ogbu's prior work, they argued that African Americans, as castelike minorities, form a sense of identity in opposition to White Americans (oppositional cultural identity), by which they create and maintain cultural boundaries, which are manifested through various behaviors between themselves and the dominant White American culture (oppositional cultural frame of reference-also later referred to as "cultural inversion"). Fordham and Ogbu (1986) further claimed that these facets of Black identity were reinforced through "fictive kinship," a strong sense of group loyalty among African Americans through which members of the group are sanctioned for violating established norms of behavior. Through the integration of these various ideas, Fordham and Ogbu contended that African Americans faced the "burden of 'acting White'" if they espoused academic success-a behavior said to be the domain of White Americans. The "acting White" hypothesis gained widespread attention in the media as an explanation for Black academic underachievement (see Gregory, 1992; Pearson, 1994)."

WHere is the sceintific methodology? This was not a survey of black kids opinions, this was an individual who looked at the situation in a specifc small school district and formed his opinion on what was causing it. Actually, he may have even set out to "prove" that "acting white" critic was the cause of black achievment gaps. What I want are the polls of the black youth opinions themselves. I do not mean a poll that ask them the question directly...in which they will respond with the answer they think you want to hear...you have to ask them the question indirectly...such as....do you associate being black with being ignorant...are you ignorant because you are black...when you read or learn about something that interest you, do you feel like you are not being black?

Furthermore, there are relatively few rich black kids, as a percentage of total black kids. He did not PROVE that these kids did not study because they had an aversion to “acting white”. If anything, from what I have read of his study it shows a correlation of not studying as “acting black”. Not acting black does not therefore mean that one is “acting white” by default. Again, this is a study dealing with a small sample set, Shaker Heights school district, of the small sample set of black children who are from wealth families.

Dr.Ogbu introduced many theories, I wrote about one of his theories on one of the forums I frequent and I can not find it but if I come across it I will post it. However, Dr.Ogbu introduced the idea that there exist two types of immigrants, the voluntary immigrant and the involuntary immigrant and based on which group one was in, indicated how they will see the American educational system. He noted that the involuntary immigrants i.e Black folk in America took the stance that the structural racist system maintained a system of disadvantage and Black folk rebelled against it and see all the obstacles in our path to success as a means of holding us back. Considering the roots of most of these things, Black folk are dead on, a cursory glance at the history of Eugenics in America and the present day means of measuring IQ and the various college admission exams will qualify all Black suspicion.

Furthermore, one thing that needs to be studied, and one thing I would love to write a dissertation on is why Black immigrants are loved in America and put on a pedestal as opposed to their life in Britain where the same Black folk from the Caribbean Islands are facing the same problems Black men and women born in America face. It is an interesting dynamic, you can take two brothers from the same family raised in the same house and send one to America and one to Britain and their lives will be different. The treatment of Black immigrants in Britain is a far cry from this idea that they easily overcome the obstacles here in America. In the answer to this perplexing question we will discover white reaction to immigrants and how it differs here in the U.S. versus in Britain. You see Britain does not have a local Black population that has been there for centuries as there is here in America so, their dislike of Black folk is not specific as it is here in America where white folk here treat Black folk from outside the U.S. different in many respects than they treat us and have sold them the big lie that they are some how different to the Point where many of them say they are not Black, they are Nigerian, Kenyan, Somali and so on. What they really are saying when they say they are not Black is they are not Black as it relate to being born and raised in America so please treat me different.

Either, Dr.Ogbu said many things that are far more interesting that this work of his quoted by Scott, and he only received notoriety after he wrote a book saying something white folk already believed, Black folk are lazy and shiftless and this is why we do not do well in school. Try reading this book Scott and you will see that the Black folk he talked to were so disconnected from Black reality that using them as means to understand the achievement gap was not the road he should have taken, he would have been better using them and their stories as means to show how even rich Black folk find the current curriculums in schools Eurocentric and in no way empowering.

I look forward to that, there are plently of refutations, I just wanted to point out that there have been studies to point out that the acting white meme is not just a myth. It has some basis in study which can be discussed and analyzed.

My personal experience is that its a real phemona. There is an anti intellectal bent in the black community this is one possible cause of it. I have at times thought it was actually the opposite of trying to be white and was actually trying to be like the majority of this nation which is rather anti-intellectual. I mean how bright can America's be if they think they can lose weight by eating more food. America as a whole is anti intellectual, black America has just perfected it.

((( I guess we've basically cited from the same generic source but, of course, there is evidence with mine and not just hypotheses... And, your idea of what Blacks have "perfected", again, is some hyperbolic de-contextualization of the phenomenon.

Your personal experience don't mean jack! My personal experience confutes it. My personal integrity doesn't have to oversimplify and exaggerate to make a point... Too bad, that for you and yours (ideologically) we can't say the same. How much does it pay to castigate Black people as uncritically as you do? What's the going Black-on-Black rate? ))) ------------------------------------------------------

Academic achievement among African American youth has been one of the most contentious and misunderstood areas of inquiry in educational research. On a conceptual level, researchers working in this area have repeatedly committed several errors. Deficit-oriented thinking, combined with a failure to properly consider the interaction of identity formation, culture, and history, are commonplace in attempts to explain the educational experiences of African Americans....

In the 15 years since this article was published in the Urban Review, the "acting White" hypothesis has gotten much attention, often uncritically, in the media (Gregory, 1992; Suskind, 1994; Pearson, 1994; Lewin, 2000). Fordham (1988; 1996) has published other works expanding on the original 1986 article, and the "acting White" hypothesis has been cited, again usually without criticism, in other major academic works (e.g. Massey & Denton, 1993; McLaren, 1998)...

Fordham and Ogbu (1986).... contend that [BLACKS have]: a) oppositional cultural identity - Black Americans have developed a sense of identity in opposition to White Americans because of the social, economic, and political subordination they have encountered, and b) oppositional frame of reference--Black Americans have developed protective devices to reactively promote Black identity by sustaining boundaries between themselves and the dominant White culture.

Fordham and Ogbu (1986) theorize that Black students, particularly adolescents, face the "burden of 'acting White'" if they are academically successful. The authors contend that the cultural orientation of the Black communities has equated school achievement with "acting White"; thus, Black students do poorly because "they experience inordinate ambivalence and affective dissonance in regard to academic efforts and success" (p. 177). Fordham and Ogbu claim that this occurs in both integrated and predominantly Black schools and involves both peers and elders in Black communities. Moreover, Fordham (1988; 1996) also contends that Black students who are successful must adopt a "raceless" persona, distancing themselves from Black cultural attributes. Thus, the "acting White" hypothesis asserts that Blacks have not historically valued education, viewing academic success as the domain of Whites and thus fundamentally in opposition to Black culture and

Empirical refutation of the "acting White" hypothesisSeveral lines of evidence call into question different elements of Fordham and Ogbu's (1986) "acting White" hypothesis. From a historical perspective, numerous accounts refute the authors' notion that Black Americans have not historically valued education. In a 454 page scholarly text on Black education before the Civil War, Carter G. Woodson (1919) ... details various phases of Black efforts towards education during slavery, illustrating vividly Blacks' motivation towards achievement. In writing about post-Civil War Black education, Anderson (1988) notes the esteem bestowed upon Blacks who attained literacy. In Black Reconstruction, W.E.B. DuBois (1935) discusses the drive of ex-slaves towards education, calling it one of the most amazing stories in Western history--a story that was sadly often stifled by White oppression.

***Other accounts also detail how Black communities underwent voluntary taxation to keep schools open, and how teachers and school administrators in these communities extended their efforts well beyond schools and classrooms (e.g. Walker, 1996). Thus, historical evidence clearly does not support Fordham and Ogbu's contention that Black communities have not valued education and that this devaluation is a reaction to White American racism. Indeed, these accounts highlight the resilience that African Americans have displayed in pursuing educational attainment.***

Contemporary empirical studies also refute Fordham and Ogbu's (1986) assumption that Black Americans do not value education. Using data from the 1990 National Education Longitudinal Survey (NELS), a nationally representative sample of 17,544 tenth grade students, Cook and Ludwig (1998) report several findings that stand in contrast to Fordham and Ogbu. Their results indicate no differences in the number of Black and White tenth graders who expect to attend college, and after controlling for socioeconomic status, Blacks expect to stay in school longer than Whites. Also, when adjusting for family characteristics, Blacks are absent from school for fewer days than Whites. According to Cook and Ludwig, Black students in the NELS sample were more likely to report parental involvement in their schools, in the form of contacts with teachers or attendance at school meetings. After controlling for socioeconomic status, Black parents were also more likely to check their children's homework. Additionally, Ainsworth-Darnell and Downey (1998) also use the 1990 NELS data set to reach similar conclusions that contradict Fordham and Ogbu's assumptions. According to their data, Black students were significantly more likely than White students to report that education was important for occupational attainment, and also to have optimistic occupational expectations. Ainsworth-Darnell and Downey also found that Black students had more positive attitudes toward school than White students.

Data also indicate a positive relationship between academic success and peer popularity among Black students. Cook and Ludwig (1998) found that Black honor society members were significantly more popular than their classmates, and that academic success had a more positive impact on social status in predominantly Black schools than in predominantly White schools. Ainsworth-Darnell and Downey (1998) reach similar conclusions. All of these lines of evidence contradict Fordham and Ogbu's "acting White" hypothesis.

Blacks have always valued education. Even when whites made it unlawful for Blacks to be educated, Blacks made efforts to learn and teach themselves. And the percentage of Blacks holding college degrees has steadily increased.

OFF-TOPIC... but on the Minstrelization as brought to you by the American Media...Perhaps one of you brothers (Faheem or Noah) could breakdown the *Leon-nizing* of Black America.

By that I mean to refer to the BUDWEISER character LEON - the spoiled, materialistic, lazy, self-centered (and absorbed) multi-sport athlete.

The latest one features him as a baseball player where towards the end of the commercial he virtually lays out in the Batter's Box on his cell-phone conducting his "bizz-ness" that is so much more important than the game (apparently him and his ego is bigger than the game) that he foregoes his turn-at-bat motioning for a 'teammate' to go ahead and bat ahead of him because, as he says speaking about his phone conversation, "this is gonna take a while..."

Maybe it's me but I've just happened to have had it up to here with that depiction/character... as LEON seems to find himself 'playing' every sport as to represent every athlete (wink, wink) like "that".

There's one part in "The BURDEN" (Faheem & Comrade - I think - cited) that argues exactly what I have since the first time some dumb White person tried to present this BS as Gospel.

It's the salient fact that basically this whole thing comes down to unfounded, untenable and unknowable false correlations because there are no comparative study (cross-examination) of what White anti-intellectualism attitudes are. The proverbial In-Crowd/JOCK vs. Nerd phenomenon.

But, some of us are willing to run with anything that has a cornel of truth to it, no matter how exaggerated in terms of the suggested scope and power, just simply because there is some "truth" to it and because there is one or some individuals that exhibit such behavior.

Like I'm starting to tell people who are of this mindset/ideological persuasion, true premises do not a sound argument and conclusion make. Anyone that knows anything about how to construct a sound, logical argument knows that you can have all your premises be true -- which in this case, few of the claims are... at least as a rule or in total -- yet still reach a faulty conclusion.

In a rush to try to condemn and castigate...those who would promote this idea of "Acting White" as so prevalent (as SCOTT does with his sweeping claim that we "perfected it") fail to make the proper connections. It really is nothing but, in reality and truth, the same old *Blame The Victim* routine. OGBU says Black Americans, in essence, have made themselves into an OPPOSITIONAL CULTURE to that of Whites, hence the thrust of the 'choosing sides' ("You with "THEM" or are you with "US", your own people?") pressure that "Acting White" is suppose to be.

Hmmm.... I'm trying to see how history got rewritten in such a way. How when, by every indication, WHITE RACISM has always and still does any number of things within its power... its staunch oppositional, eternal enemy power to suggest the very thing that "Acting White" says. That education and the fruits there of is the privilege and property of Whites first and Negroes... when we get around to it.

There would be no Savage Inequalities if that was not the case. Yet, somehow, in all of this talk (as usual) the great weight of the societal force and restricting repressive pressures of White Racism is conspicously absent in this "analysis".

To the extent that Blacks do respond to academic achievement (we won't talk about the absence of those role models...) as "ACTING WHITE" the role of White Racism in forming that sentiment-opinion cannot be dismissed.

If anything, that attitude is conditioned and internalized not because of something inherent in "Black" culture -- as if there is a wholly separate entity such as that in America... CON's in any other conversation would firmly deny that there is or should be (see Afrocentrism/Black Separatism/Black Nationalism). It is more than likely the reaction to WHITE RACISM.

And, CON's can't pretend like "the opportunities are there" and actually keep a straight face because in they're relentless attack on the Traditional Black Civil Rights Leadership they are on record with saying (mimicking, cynically, the Black HARD Left) that such assimilationist "hustlers" only sought benefits for those of their class... the Black middle class (via Affirmative Action, etc.) and not for the masses of (poorer) Black people.

Well, the Hypocrisy & Schizophrenia is more than exposed and definitely seen as the fraud it is...

That argument has a kernel of truth to it. Nevertheless there are other reasons that are far stronger:

1.General U.S. anti-intellectualism-academically gifted people are not looked at in high esteem here anymore. I know that other countries today like the U.S. used to, made a point to educate their population and rewarded their education, but they also respect intellectualism in a way we do not.2.General irrelevance of the curriculumperiod- everybody knows that the curriculum does not speak to the history, tradition, heritage, socioeconomic condition, needs, and aspirations of Blacks, in particular. The Afrocentrics scholars and critics of mainstream public and private schools goes into detail about this. It does not do it for other minorities, either. Outside of this, which is just as important, this system wants compliant workers so it teaches these basic skills and nothing else. John Taylor Gatto goes into this. Just for the record, if the system is flawed for whites, then it is definately flawed for other minorities. Leftist critiques can suffice as well. I will say that the education we receive also has colonialist traits, the post-colonialist scholars offers analysis here.3.Perceived futility of the need for education-the observation that entertainers and sports have alot of money without always having academic skills rings true. Another things people have actually done experiments or whatever showing that a white inmate has a greater shot at getting a job than a black person with a college degree. Several studies have shown that black people make a lot less whether they have a G.E.D., a high school diploma, or a college degree! This DOES NOT justify the poor academic response of some students, but it partly explains some of it! I am personally tired of this myself and for the record I got my lesson! Still I think it is information like this that discourages the importance of education.Another thing alot of people don't mention is that it is common knowledge that many successful businessmen/women were average students in school. I am not talking about Andrew Carnegie but today's businessmen/women.One more thing, the educated people that turn their backs on their community in one form or fashion indicates the nature of the education people receive. The hate goes the other way with smart people getting ostracized but the other scenario I mentioned is just as common and more harmful.4.Peer Pressure-all kids have to confront this, but this phenomenon is made worse when their are so many other obstacles you have to face like race, class, nationality, few institutional alternatives, etc.5.The effects of racism- this can discourage students in several ways. I don't know where to began here, so I will stop.

6.Alot of people simply have different learning styles and alot of people have learning disabilitiesI don't know where to start with learning styles but I will say about learning disabilities that 60 percent of people in theU.S.(I don't know about everywhere else)are believed to have a learning disability. This problem is ignored because the child nor the parent does not wanted their child tested for this. The parent or the child does not want to be labeled and the cost of finding out stuff like this does not help either. People also don't like the medicine because of the side effects of too many of them.This IS partly people's fault, but the problems in getting help discourage thisI am glad to see an article that alludes to their being other factors than just the "acting white" idea. Too many people start at this analysis and stop there, which limits other constructive solutions. (I also feel that the people that do this are hopeless, sometimes less informed, and usually have a narrow agenda of some sort).Nevertheless, my suggestion-for people not getting their education, still get your act together.Teach yourself at libraries(they have alot, not everything), use the internet at home,at libraries,etc. Some areas do not have libraries,but use public or private transporttion when you can. Use your anger at the way things to change the way they are for "US" and everybody else.