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It is not appropriate to link Physicians personal/commercial websites to either biographic or descriptive articles. Too much potential for conflicts of interestDroliver 04:15, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Recently, the list of surgeons has been removed by Droliver without discussion or note in these talk pages, with the claim that it is promotional. I disagree with the characterization of the physician list. I do not believe it promotes any given surgeon when all the major such surgeons are listed. In this context I do not believe this list is at all promotional. Those surgeons hardly need promotion, when their waiting lists are already six months or more deep. I also believe it is important to list these people so that nobody ever gets the misimpression that such surgery is performed primarily by anyone other than reputable, accredited plastic surgeons who are members of the ASPS and other relevant organizations. In this specific case, I also believe that it is important to humanize the existence of this surgery with the names of its actual practitioners. Let us not disappear the FFS surgeons to an anonymous status, when the work they do is so vitally important to its recipients. Removal of the surgeon list also decreases the verifiability of this article's contents. (That is another matter which should be addressed - this article needs some reference citations at its end.) There may be another reasons that the list of names should be maintained. Please feel free to add to the list. I will wait to restore this list until others have had an opportunity express there opinions. Janniejdoe 01:28, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

In this instance I don't believe there is much potential for conflict of interest. First, none of the surgeon's themselves appear in involved in the creation or maintenance of this page. Second, the page provides basic general information. Third, most of the well known practitioners are listed and provided in alphabetical order. Fourth, the listed surgeons are hardly in need of "extra" business, since of all them have quite long waiting lists. Fifth, their potential patients are generally internet connected and quite likely to utilize searches to locate informaton about them. Sixth, given the nature of this particular type of surgery, and the generous people who perform it often at risk of criticism from some biased groups, should not be hidden from view or made to appear marginalized in any way. Janniejdoe 01:47, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I run a website where I advise people on FFS and have some experience in this area. I feel that the list of procedures was overly technical, repetitious and contains procedures which are not feminisation. I will give some examples: Terms like “submalar augmentation” may go over the heads of many lay readers and I feel they should be replaced by terms like “cheek implants” which describe the same thing in terms that almost anyone can understand. “Submalar augmentation” would be more appropriate on a page specifically discussing the technicalities of cheek implants. The terms: • Rhinoplasty • Nasal tip and nasal alar refinement • Nasal Dorsum reduction • Osteotomy of the bony pyramid of the nose ...are in fact all rhinoplasty. Again, I feel that the technical specifics of rhinoplasty like “osteotomy of the bony pyramid” would be better placed on a page about rhinoplasty rather than a page giving an overview of FFS. Finally, procedures like neck lift are not FFS even though they are often performed at the same time. With all this in mind I have completely re-written the list of procedures to eliminate the unnecessary technical terms, repetitions and non FFS procedures (though I have included at the bottom some of the non-FFS procedures that are often performed at the same time). The list now contains 11 procedures instead of the original 21 and I’ve also included the basic reasoning behind the procedures.

I have made other revisions too: I have removed the section reffering to FFS having often "amazing results" because although I agree with this sentiment, I feel this is opinion and not appropriate in an encyclopedia entry. I have included hair transplantation within FFS as it is now often performed by FFS surgeons as part of FFS. I have also included a mention of the people who seek FFS. Finally, I have removed the reference to FFS surgeons being less common than SRS surgeons as I know of no evidence to support this. Shoebill 12:54, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I believe it is important to list the well-known, accredited, practitioners of this rarified, medical specialty. The list will never be long because of its rarified nature. I also believe it is important to provide what may be redundant explanations of various terms, because this is a general ^pedia, whose audience may not be entirely familiar with the subject matter.user:janniejdoe

I just linked the Lawrence and BeginningLife FFS pages directly, and replaced the linkspam added on 03:58, 29 July 2005 by User:Shwilk to a site promoting Jeffrey Spiegel. The site in question [1] lifts most of its content from the FFS section on my site at tsroadmap.com. [2]Jokestress 15:34, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Removing same site again for same reason. Compare my original page [3] with this site's copy of my original page. [4]Jokestress 21:20, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

I Would like to remove BeginningLife FFS pages link for a number of reasons, the link is broken and since the site promotes only doctors that pay for space on there pages it would fall under a spam. Another issue with the BeginningLife site is that they do not allow anyone to talk about problems they have had from surergy preformed by Douglas Ousterhout. I am adding Trinity Rose's [5]http://www.facialfeminizationsurgery.net/ffs_procedures.html ffs procedures to the external links since it does cover the procedures very well and does list the sourse of information. 15 May, 2008 Freeinfoforall

Another item I would like to cover is that there are a alot more FFS surgeons then people want to admit to since it takes business away from who ever they think is the best doctor. Take a look at Trinity's FFS and SRS surgeon list [6]http://www.facialfeminizationsurgery.net/intro.html and you can find tons on there. I can pick out 15 surgeons that do FFS from there easy. 15 May, 2008 Freeinfoforall—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.185.64.39 (talk) 12:40, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia. Your edits appeared to constitute vandalism and have been reverted. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. Thank you.

This Surgeon Dr. Gary Alter (Who has preformed Facial Feminization Surgery and Sex Reassignment Surgery (SRS)thousands of people Has also been a featured Plastic surgeon on "Doctor 90210 the TV series".

There is also noted Feminization Surgery FFS surgeon Dr. Mark Zukowski (There have been a great many debates between Dr. Douglas Ousterhout and Dr. Mark Zukowski about facial feminization surgery procedures for the fast five years) Another note of interest is Trinity's facial feminization surgery was presented case study by Dr. Mark Zukowski. Dr. Mark Zukowski Has also been a featured Pastic surgeon on "MTV's I Want A Famus Face the TV series".

You also have to question the intention of user Alison because the user removed a live link with so much helpful information per [11]Wikipedia:External links guideline]and without checking this page first. Then you also have to question the same user over leaving the dead link for http://beginninglife.com/FFS.htm Noted as "Facial Feminizing Surgery (FFS) Info and Links (with photo gallery)" in the page. This may or may not suggest a personal bias towards the author Trinity Rose of the site [12]http://www.facialfeminizationsurgery.net/ffs_procedures.html Trinity's FFS Procedures Page]

Alison is Becky Allison of www.drbecky.com Noted of interests to NPOV has a vested interest in promoting Douglas Ousterhout which is evident by the copyrighted works by Douglas K. Ousterhout, M.D., D.D.S. on her website http://www.drbecky.com/dko.html The same content is used by Douglas K. Ousterhout, M.D., D.D.S. to promote his practice and this very much sugests a working relationship either in the past or present. Also User has had Facial Feminizing Surgery with Douglas K. Ousterhout which is no big secret. Users site is also in direct competion with Trinity's for user ratings which would also suggest this was not NPOV.

It is also no big secret there is a bias towards Trinity or her site by fans or promoters of Douglas K. Ousterhout's practice since Trinity wrote about her bad surgery experience with him Trinity's FFS with Dr. Douglas Ousterhout

All I have done is presented th facts noting more and I have provided proof of the facts.

This is the last warning you will receive for your disruptive edits.
Any further vandalismwill result in your being blocked from editing Wikipedia. This is the last warning you will receive for your disruptive edits, such as the one you made to Facial_feminization_surgery.
Any further vandalismwill result in your being blocked from editing Wikipedia. Please Please I beg of Wikipedia please lock this page and please remove it from any admins that tries useing it to promote the views of only one doctor views based on money or based on the agenda of controling the market for Facial feminization surgery. Signed by User:Freeinfoforall

User AliceJMarkham and user Alison Did and even click on the link of the link to see what the link was about they just seen that the site was about Trinity and undid th edits. How do I know this you are asking yourself. This is because I made a mistake when did a copy from one of the origeral links there * "http://beginninglife.com/FFS.htm Facial Feminizing Surgery (FFS) Info and Links" (with photo gallery), And I forgot to edit the website address address code of the code to place in Trinity website address so it turnd out like this * "http://beginninglife.com/FFS.htm Trinity's Facial Feminizing Surgery (FFS) Procedures Info"

Please Please I beg of Wikipedia please lock this page and please remove it from any admins that tries useing it to promote the views of only one doctor views based on money or based on the agenda of controling the market for Facial feminization surgery. Signed by 18 May, 2008 Freeinfoforall

If you look at what Alison and I reverted, [15] and [16], you'll note that the IP editor added a duplication of an existing link and that duplication was reverted. If they were trying to update a dead link, that's not what they did. --AliceJMarkham (talk) 05:07, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Sysops do not make content decisions. If you have reasonable input from other doctor's and their views, then by all means present them. This doesn't mean conduct a smear campaign against XY doctor, or whatever, it means put in information from those other doctors in a factual, and encyclopedic way. I read Trinity's page, and her experience, it sucks, and it's horrible, and hey, there are a lot of people who suck. I've read numerous glowing reports of a particular plastic surgeon who denied to even give me a consult for breast augmentation, because he "treats the whole person" and that he can deny someone for any reason at any time because it's elective surgery. (Apparently, oblivious that as his services are open to the public, he can't reject patients on the basis of race, sex, sexual orientation or gender identity or expression, as dictated in the AMA's ethics guidelines.) Just because one person was treated in a particularly poor way, doesn't mean that person is bad for everyone. I've had to deal with individuals in the trans community (and especially the LGBT community at large) tell me that I need to fix things, that don't need to be fixed, because my actions intrude upon their personal concept of transsexualism. I've been a patient of Anne Lawrence, I would definitely recommend her if you feel you might be autogynephilic, she can do a lot to treat you, however, if you don't subscribe to her trans world view, then you're going to clash heads with her (like I did), if you integrate well with the greater community of your gender of identity, and have little reason to sequester yourself in the trans community or the larger LGBT community as a whole, you're going to get hate from people who disagree with your actions, and feel that you need a strong deep emotional bond with the trans community and LGBT community... it's not enough to simply be a supporter, for some people. By their nature, negative opinions are poorly thought out opinions. You're in such a rush to remember things in a way that support and justify your position that you're quite unlikely to come up with a fair opinion. Likewise, glowing praise should be treated with the same grain of salt. Did Dr. O screw up on Trinity? It's likely hard to say that he didn't. Did she do anything to provoke the situation? She probably did, knowingly or unknowingly. That's how the world happens. Specifically, this article shouldn't target a single surgeon's views about FFS, and should include a consensus view agreeable to all major FFS surgeons. If you think something needs to be fixed, then work on it, rather than plastering a hate-filled, but properly cautionary tale onto the external links of a slightly relevant article. --Puellanivis (talk) 06:03, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Interesting Puellanivis that you would put things the way you do since it suggesting that Trinity provoked knowingly or unknowingly Dr. Ousterhout to botch her surgery. That would be pure evil. Doctors will refuse to work on a person if they can't agree and thats there right. Everyone who has had a botched surgery with Dr. Douglas Ousterhout and speaks up about it gets attacked by his supporters or Mira Coluccio give hints to some supporters out personal info about the person having the problems. A surgeon who is 80 years old and takes naps in between 8 hours of surgery time is asking for trouble either way. Yes, like most everyone, I was message forums when all the attacks too place on any and everyone who had a problem. The reason people do support Trinity is because Dr. O or Mira have said very nasty things about everyone who has had a botched surgery and try to break them in some way for it. On the other hand they have said very nasty things about most every other FFS doctor out there.

Trinity has not been seen in a very long time besides for a recent video on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YtUFQ5Yf2w What you should ask yourself is why does her sites get in the top ten rankings all the time. That is because people are fed up playing the he said she said game with Dr. O about people botched surgery or getting does sugeries fixed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.94.5.118 (talk) 17:44, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Is this even true anymore? "there seem surprisingly fewer highly experienced and skilled surgeons than those practicing SRS" There are only two major surgeons doing SRS in the United States (for example), but there are four major surgeons offering FFS. --Marumari 20:49, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Added support group link. However, there are horrible bots around that keep trying to undo it. I have repeatedly reverted their undos. The link is legit, to a non-profit support group whose hosts and members are ffs patients. 75.172.75.141 (talk) 13:56, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Removing the link to Transsexual Road Map Facial Feminization Procedures since it has many Npov issues like having google ads, The site also promotes a book for sale of only one surgeon and also a video for sale by the same surgeon. Plus another Npov issue is that the site author is given money by the same surgeon for events. Too many issues point to a profit being made to have this link here and the views are based on the profits —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.205.217.245 (talk) 11:33, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

I am thinking about adding this list of FFS surgeons since people make it seen only like three or four doctors preform this surgery and they try to state this as fact, when anyone that has been around Facial Feminization Surgery knows there are over like 30 to 50 surgeons preforming Facial Feminization Surgery and some even do SRS at the same.

Here is a list of the surgeons I want to add and if there are any others people can think of add them to the talk page and lets. Also Thank you to Trinity Rose of http://www.facialfeminizationsurgery.net compiling a large part of this list.

Currently, (September 2010) as far as the English National Health Service (NHS) is concerned (or wishes to pretend,) [neutrality is disputed] FFS is unsupported by any published, peer-reviewed studies of its "clinical effectiveness."[citation needed] As a result, if you live in England you will not obtain public funding for it or, indeed, for revisions to privately obtained surgery if things go wrong or remain otherwise unsatisfactory. [citation needed] However, the situation appears to be different in Scotland where FFS is reportedly routinely performed by the NHS (specifically at Southern General Hospital, Glasgow.) Nevertheless, published clinical effectiveness studies are urgently needed. [by whom?]

I found this paragraph to have a bias and crooked point of view. I've removed it until someone (or myself) can reword it and find a few sources to back it up. Ishyflynn (talk) 23:58, 2 November 2011 (UTC)