I'd like, currently in this order:LTCS (draft and FA)CB (FA)OLB (FA)DERG (FA)WR/KR

I'd love to have Ed reed as a FA, since I can't see where they'll get the money to franchise flacco and keep boldin (especially after his playoff run). Reed is too expensive. Do a 2 year deal and draft a young guy. Reed is an excellent commander of the defense, a leader, and doesn't tolerate people blowing assignments. Just what the defense needs. Plus, he's still got some skill left.

What do you think we do at DE? Sign Avril and over-pay? Cut KVB? Go with a 6th round rookie, LoJack and Young?

Baltimore is going to get around $5 mill in relief from Lewis retiring, and I can see them signing Flacco long-term costing them around $10 million next year. They're doing great with Torrey Smith only making around $800k next year. Flacco cost them $8 million last year, I think they'll be able to sign him for a $12-15 mill average and pay him around $10 next year.

Bolden made $7.5 last year, and Ed Reed made $10. I don't see either guy getting a huge pay increase, but they are going to have to be creative or go really long-term with someone that they probably shouldn't in order to keep that team together.

Reed has said he wants to coach after he retires and the owner for Baltimore said he would offer him a spot on their staff the moment that happens. It's possible Reed could take less money to stay with Baltimore knowing that he has a job to coach after he decides to hang it up. I kinda see everyone coming back next year for them and everything probably gets worked out pretty quick. Flacco pretty much showed he a Franchise QB, so I don't think they will get to tricky and have him play on the tag.

I really hope your gut is wrong on Avril Wjb, what happens with him can really make or break the Lions for years to come.

RE: Avril.

Mayhew has said that he doesn't expect to use the Franchise Tag. I don't think he has said the same thing about the Transition Tag. I can see Mayhew slapping the Transition tag on Avril. NO-ONE will touch a Franchised Player. But, you put the Transition Tag on a guy, and he can still negotiate a FA deal with another team. And the Lions would get to match it OR take a 1st and 3rd from the team that signs him. The franchise tag would count the average of the top 5 DE's averaged over the last 3 years. The Tansition Tag on the other hand, would count only the average of the top 10 DE's averaged over the last 3 years. Basically, less than half of what Avril made last year.

I do not see how the Lions can buy their way out of the roster issues they face. As others have mentioned in the past and all over the board recently, they are still in cap jail in a sense and need to use some players that are not FA pickups to fill their holes. In this sense, I think the FO will be counting on some of the players on the roster today to start next season. I am confident that the guys who are at this full time could project to this offseason to see that they would be in trouble with this group of players hitting their contracts at this point. I think that perhaps the FO has plans for some of these younger guys, like Fox maybe, to play in lieu of paying the guys like Cherilus and others. Maybe Travis Lewis will play LB next year and either Levy or Durant may walk.

Again, people can say I was "negative" all offseason, but I stated over and over how we could have easily saved $13 million with Avril or $23 million without Avril. People asked me what Avril did to me to make me mad, what Nate did to me to make me mad, why I hate Corey Williams, etc... None of those things are true. Now we're going to have to suck next year and "rebuild" for the next two seasons while we sort this mess out. What Mayhew did last year was utterly ridiculous.

As many teams that are over the cap, and the few who have a treasure chest chest, - ( they can't sign everyone ), there will be some very good players still on the FA market a week or two before Training camps open. And we might be able to snag a couple of really good players at veteran minimum for 1 or 2 years.

February 5th, 2013, 11:22 pm

wjb21ndtown

Re: 2013 Lions Draft Wish List

BillySims wrote:

wjb21ndtown wrote:

jrd66 wrote:

I do not see how the Lions can buy their way out of the roster issues they face. As others have mentioned in the past and all over the board recently, they are still in cap jail in a sense and need to use some players that are not FA pickups to fill their holes. In this sense, I think the FO will be counting on some of the players on the roster today to start next season. I am confident that the guys who are at this full time could project to this offseason to see that they would be in trouble with this group of players hitting their contracts at this point. I think that perhaps the FO has plans for some of these younger guys, like Fox maybe, to play in lieu of paying the guys like Cherilus and others. Maybe Travis Lewis will play LB next year and either Levy or Durant may walk.

Again, people can say I was "negative" all offseason, but I stated over and over how we could have easily saved $13 million with Avril or $23 million without Avril. People asked me what Avril did to me to make me mad, what Nate did to me to make me mad, why I hate Corey Williams, etc... None of those things are true. Now we're going to have to suck next year and "rebuild" for the next two seasons while we sort this mess out. What Mayhew did last year was utterly ridiculous.

As many teams that are over the cap, and the few who have a treasure chest chest, - ( they can't sign everyone ), there will be some very good players still on the FA market a week or two before Training camps open. And we might be able to snag a couple of really good players at veteran minimum for 1 or 2 years.

Billy, I don't think you realize how dire our cap situation is, and it's laughable that you STILL can't admit I was right about last offseason, when even Mayhew admits it at this point.

I do not see how the Lions can buy their way out of the roster issues they face. As others have mentioned in the past and all over the board recently, they are still in cap jail in a sense and need to use some players that are not FA pickups to fill their holes. In this sense, I think the FO will be counting on some of the players on the roster today to start next season. I am confident that the guys who are at this full time could project to this offseason to see that they would be in trouble with this group of players hitting their contracts at this point. I think that perhaps the FO has plans for some of these younger guys, like Fox maybe, to play in lieu of paying the guys like Cherilus and others. Maybe Travis Lewis will play LB next year and either Levy or Durant may walk.

Again, people can say I was "negative" all offseason, but I stated over and over how we could have easily saved $13 million with Avril or $23 million without Avril. People asked me what Avril did to me to make me mad, what Nate did to me to make me mad, why I hate Corey Williams, etc... None of those things are true. Now we're going to have to suck next year and "rebuild" for the next two seasons while we sort this mess out. What Mayhew did last year was utterly ridiculous.

As many teams that are over the cap, and the few who have a treasure chest chest, - ( they can't sign everyone ), there will be some very good players still on the FA market a week or two before Training camps open. And we might be able to snag a couple of really good players at veteran minimum for 1 or 2 years.

Billy, I don't think you realize how dire our cap situation is, and it's laughable that you STILL can't admit I was right about last offseason, when even Mayhew admits it at this point.

Admit what? That we are in cap hell? Every moron on the planet knows we are in cap hell. What's to admit? And what has that got to do with being able to get under the cap enough to sign a couple of veteran minimum guys? There will be some guys available just before training camp that still have a few good years left in them, that don't want to be forced into retirement yet.

February 6th, 2013, 12:19 am

inheritedlionsfan

Team MVP

Joined: January 13th, 2006, 4:18 amPosts: 3401Location: Maryland

Re: 2013 Lions Draft Wish List

How bout we go back to the purpose of this thread and post our wish lists...

And somebody comment on mine darn it lol

February 6th, 2013, 1:55 am

Killwill25

Rookie Player of the Year

Joined: March 5th, 2009, 8:42 pmPosts: 2316Location: Brooklyn, NY

Re: 2013 Lions Draft Wish List

inheritedlionsfan wrote:

Been doing some research and these are some guys I've been looking into.

We trade down with the Bills to #8 so they can jump the Cards and take Geno Smith. Why don't they trade with Cleveland? The Browns asked for too much. We get their third and fourth rounders this year and maybe something next year. It's for a QB so they should be willing to pay a bit, but not Cleveland's asking price.

#8 Kenny Vaccaro S (maybe Chance Warmack but I feel a guard can be found easier than a safety)

#36 Desmond Trufant CB (in another post I said I see him going in the 20s but since it's a wish list, he falls to us)

#65 DE – not sure which one I want at this spot. Was looking into Tank Carradine but with that late season ACL tear I’m a bit scared off. He was getting a late first early second consideration before the injury so maybe he’d be worth it. The other DE projected around this spot, Goodman, is more of a run defender than a pass rusher.

#71 Sean Porter OLB or Gerald Hodges OLB - either should be able to step right in and take over for whichever FA LB we don't re-sign

#102 David Quessenberry OL (part because of the name, part because of his versatility. His stock is rising from the Sr. Bowl he could play guard, center or possibly RT for us.)

#138ish Marcus Davis WR – Has elite size and speed to fill in as the #2WR but hasn’t put it all together yet. He’s worth a pick this late to bolster our WR corps

#170ish Joe Kruger DE – He’ll likely end up going higher than this but he’s a good run defender and a decent pass rusher. Brother Paul was the Ravens 2nd round pick a few years ago.

#200ish and #230ish best available maybe a center, CB/KR or WR/KR

I like Vaccaro but I don't think he is head and shoulders above the safeties we could get in round 2. Eve if we did take Vaccaro there, I'd still want to take another S later on. I'm with you on the gaurd think but I'd take the best CB available at #8. I like that you went S in rd1 and CB in 2. I want to go CB in rd1 and S in too. I like Trufant and that is a realistic pick at 36.

DE is a good bet at 65. I think I had Gholston here. Tank is another injury risk

I hope those LB are still on the board at 71, I'd take either but a good gaurd would be tempting here.

I'm not a Ray Ghaham fan but if you wanna go RB here he might be the best one left.

Marcus Davis looks like a potential beast.

Kruger at the end would be nice but I don't think he'll be there just due to the strength of the name.

_________________Matthew Stafford is the only player in NFL history who is allowed to smoke cigarettes in the team huddle. He just chooses not to

February 6th, 2013, 5:50 am

wjb21ndtown

Re: 2013 Lions Draft Wish List

BillySims wrote:

wjb21ndtown wrote:

BillySims wrote:

wjb21ndtown wrote:

jrd66 wrote:

I do not see how the Lions can buy their way out of the roster issues they face. As others have mentioned in the past and all over the board recently, they are still in cap jail in a sense and need to use some players that are not FA pickups to fill their holes. In this sense, I think the FO will be counting on some of the players on the roster today to start next season. I am confident that the guys who are at this full time could project to this offseason to see that they would be in trouble with this group of players hitting their contracts at this point. I think that perhaps the FO has plans for some of these younger guys, like Fox maybe, to play in lieu of paying the guys like Cherilus and others. Maybe Travis Lewis will play LB next year and either Levy or Durant may walk.

Again, people can say I was "negative" all offseason, but I stated over and over how we could have easily saved $13 million with Avril or $23 million without Avril. People asked me what Avril did to me to make me mad, what Nate did to me to make me mad, why I hate Corey Williams, etc... None of those things are true. Now we're going to have to suck next year and "rebuild" for the next two seasons while we sort this mess out. What Mayhew did last year was utterly ridiculous.

As many teams that are over the cap, and the few who have a treasure chest chest, - ( they can't sign everyone ), there will be some very good players still on the FA market a week or two before Training camps open. And we might be able to snag a couple of really good players at veteran minimum for 1 or 2 years.

Billy, I don't think you realize how dire our cap situation is, and it's laughable that you STILL can't admit I was right about last offseason, when even Mayhew admits it at this point.

Admit what? That we are in cap hell? Every moron on the planet knows we are in cap hell. What's to admit? And what has that got to do with being able to get under the cap enough to sign a couple of veteran minimum guys? There will be some guys available just before training camp that still have a few good years left in them, that don't want to be forced into retirement yet.

No, that I was right about not re-signing Avril, cutting Nate, cutting Peterman, and cutting Corey Williams. That I didn't have "hatred" toward these guys as you suggested, but they would have been smart roster moves last year, and allowed us to not put this team through roster and rebuilding hell. Like I said, those moves last year would have freed up $20 million dollars last year, and gave us an additional $7 million to play with in 2013.

Further, I'd love evidence of these vet min. "roster filler" good talent guys that you claim will be around. Seems to me the "roster casualties" are over paid vets, and guys that get cut that are around near the start of the season. The good vet roster fillers that get near min. contracts usually get scooped up rather quick.

That said, I don't see how we can't goLTDECBS/OG

In this upcoming draft, and look for #2 WR, CB and S in FA.

There are no "vet min" quality DEs or LTs that should be starting on this or any other NFL team. We could look at Levitre for around Peterman money, but I think we'd be better suited cap wise to rely on Fox, Nagy, whomever that practice squad OG is that the mgt. is in love with and a 4th round or later draft pick.

I'd like, currently in this order:LTCS (draft and FA)CB (FA)OLB (FA)DERG (FA)WR/KR

I'd love to have Ed reed as a FA, since I can't see where they'll get the money to franchise flacco and keep boldin (especially after his playoff run). Reed is too expensive. Do a 2 year deal and draft a young guy. Reed is an excellent commander of the defense, a leader, and doesn't tolerate people blowing assignments. Just what the defense needs. Plus, he's still got some skill left.

What do you think we do at DE? Sign Avril and over-pay? Cut KVB? Go with a 6th round rookie, LoJack and Young?

Baltimore is going to get around $5 mill in relief from Lewis retiring, and I can see them signing Flacco long-term costing them around $10 million next year. They're doing great with Torrey Smith only making around $800k next year. Flacco cost them $8 million last year, I think they'll be able to sign him for a $12-15 mill average and pay him around $10 next year.

Bolden made $7.5 last year, and Ed Reed made $10. I don't see either guy getting a huge pay increase, but they are going to have to be creative or go really long-term with someone that they probably shouldn't in order to keep that team together.

Reed has said he wants to coach after he retires and the owner for Baltimore said he would offer him a spot on their staff the moment that happens. It's possible Reed could take less money to stay with Baltimore knowing that he has a job to coach after he decides to hang it up. I kinda see everyone coming back next year for them and everything probably gets worked out pretty quick. Flacco pretty much showed he a Franchise QB, so I don't think they will get to tricky and have him play on the tag.

I really hope your gut is wrong on Avril Wjb, what happens with him can really make or break the Lions for years to come.

RE: Avril.

Mayhew has said that he doesn't expect to use the Franchise Tag. I don't think he has said the same thing about the Transition Tag. I can see Mayhew slapping the Transition tag on Avril. NO-ONE will touch a Franchised Player. But, you put the Transition Tag on a guy, and he can still negotiate a FA deal with another team. And the Lions would get to match it OR take a 1st and 3rd from the team that signs him. The franchise tag would count the average of the top 5 DE's averaged over the last 3 years. The Tansition Tag on the other hand, would count only the average of the top 10 DE's averaged over the last 3 years. Basically, less than half of what Avril made last year.

I put this in the "Peterman got axed" thread earlier, but I'll add it here to because I think you have the wrong idea about the Transition tag.

The transition tag is equal to the top ten salaries or 120% of the players previous salary which ever is higher and you only get right of first refusal. We would still be paying Avril the same as the FT and would get no compensation if we refuse to match, so there is no point in tagging him with the TT.

February 6th, 2013, 11:11 am

kdsberman

Team MVP

Joined: February 20th, 2007, 10:51 pmPosts: 3422Location: Saginaw, MI

Re: 2013 Lions Draft Wish List

Killwill25 wrote:

inheritedlionsfan wrote:

Been doing some research and these are some guys I've been looking into.

We trade down with the Bills to #8 so they can jump the Cards and take Geno Smith. Why don't they trade with Cleveland? The Browns asked for too much. We get their third and fourth rounders this year and maybe something next year. It's for a QB so they should be willing to pay a bit, but not Cleveland's asking price.

#8 Kenny Vaccaro S (maybe Chance Warmack but I feel a guard can be found easier than a safety)

#36 Desmond Trufant CB (in another post I said I see him going in the 20s but since it's a wish list, he falls to us)

#65 DE – not sure which one I want at this spot. Was looking into Tank Carradine but with that late season ACL tear I’m a bit scared off. He was getting a late first early second consideration before the injury so maybe he’d be worth it. The other DE projected around this spot, Goodman, is more of a run defender than a pass rusher.

#71 Sean Porter OLB or Gerald Hodges OLB - either should be able to step right in and take over for whichever FA LB we don't re-sign

#102 David Quessenberry OL (part because of the name, part because of his versatility. His stock is rising from the Sr. Bowl he could play guard, center or possibly RT for us.)

#138ish Marcus Davis WR – Has elite size and speed to fill in as the #2WR but hasn’t put it all together yet. He’s worth a pick this late to bolster our WR corps

#170ish Joe Kruger DE – He’ll likely end up going higher than this but he’s a good run defender and a decent pass rusher. Brother Paul was the Ravens 2nd round pick a few years ago.

#200ish and #230ish best available maybe a center, CB/KR or WR/KR

I like Vaccaro but I don't think he is head and shoulders above the safeties we could get in round 2. Eve if we did take Vaccaro there, I'd still want to take another S later on. I'm with you on the gaurd think but I'd take the best CB available at #8. I like that you went S in rd1 and CB in 2. I want to go CB in rd1 and S in too. I like Trufant and that is a realistic pick at 36.

DE is a good bet at 65. I think I had Gholston here. Tank is another injury risk

I hope those LB are still on the board at 71, I'd take either but a good gaurd would be tempting here.

I'm not a Ray Ghaham fan but if you wanna go RB here he might be the best one left.

Marcus Davis looks like a potential beast.

Kruger at the end would be nice but I don't think he'll be there just due to the strength of the name.

I pretty much agree with you, but I see Trufant easily going in the 1st Round now.

Mayhew likes to trade up, so I wouldnt mind seeing a trade down in the first round for Vacarro, then a trade back up for Trufant. Theres a million scenarios I would love this coming April, and that would be just one of them.

I really like Trufant and it will probably take a trade back into the first to nab him, but since it was a wish list I put him at 36. As I mentioned I see him going in the 20s. I like the Vaccaro and Trufant pairing better than a corner first and safety second except maybe Milliner first and then Elam second. Spot on about Kruger's name recognition. It will probably get him a round or two higher than I picked him, depending on how he does at the combine he could be a 3rd or 4th round pick.

Graham was the best available RB there and he has some good qualities that we need but I'm not in love with that pick. I just kinda plugged in a good value there.

Admit what? That we are in cap hell? Every moron on the planet knows we are in cap hell. What's to admit? And what has that got to do with being able to get under the cap enough to sign a couple of veteran minimum guys? There will be some guys available just before training camp that still have a few good years left in them, that don't want to be forced into retirement yet.

No, that I was right about not re-signing Avril, cutting Nate, cutting Peterman, and cutting Corey Williams. That I didn't have "hatred" toward these guys as you suggested, but they would have been smart roster moves last year, and allowed us to not put this team through roster and rebuilding hell. Like I said, those moves last year would have freed up $20 million dollars last year, and gave us an additional $7 million to play with in 2013.

Further, I'd love evidence of these vet min. "roster filler" good talent guys that you claim will be around. Seems to me the "roster casualties" are over paid vets, and guys that get cut that are around near the start of the season. The good vet roster fillers that get near min. contracts usually get scooped up rather quick.

That said, I don't see how we can't goLTDECBS/OG

In this upcoming draft, and look for #2 WR, CB and S in FA.

There are no "vet min" quality DEs or LTs that should be starting on this or any other NFL team. We could look at Levitre for around Peterman money, but I think we'd be better suited cap wise to rely on Fox, Nagy, whomever that practice squad OG is that the mgt. is in love with and a 4th round or later draft pick.

I was right there with you on everyone except Avril. And in hind sight on Avril, I still would have tagged him. Only it would have been the Transition Tag instead of the Franchise Tag.

Admit what? That we are in cap hell? Every moron on the planet knows we are in cap hell. What's to admit? And what has that got to do with being able to get under the cap enough to sign a couple of veteran minimum guys? There will be some guys available just before training camp that still have a few good years left in them, that don't want to be forced into retirement yet.

No, that I was right about not re-signing Avril, cutting Nate, cutting Peterman, and cutting Corey Williams. That I didn't have "hatred" toward these guys as you suggested, but they would have been smart roster moves last year, and allowed us to not put this team through roster and rebuilding hell. Like I said, those moves last year would have freed up $20 million dollars last year, and gave us an additional $7 million to play with in 2013.

Further, I'd love evidence of these vet min. "roster filler" good talent guys that you claim will be around. Seems to me the "roster casualties" are over paid vets, and guys that get cut that are around near the start of the season. The good vet roster fillers that get near min. contracts usually get scooped up rather quick.

That said, I don't see how we can't goLTDECBS/OG

In this upcoming draft, and look for #2 WR, CB and S in FA.

There are no "vet min" quality DEs or LTs that should be starting on this or any other NFL team. We could look at Levitre for around Peterman money, but I think we'd be better suited cap wise to rely on Fox, Nagy, whomever that practice squad OG is that the mgt. is in love with and a 4th round or later draft pick.

I was right there with you on everyone except Avril. And in hind sight on Avril, I still would have tagged him. Only it would have been the Transition Tag instead of the Franchise Tag.

Why? They wouldn't have got anything for the transition tag if another team signed him. Wjb was right on Avril, the Lions should have moved him for anything they could get last year and used the money to sign some better guys, so things wouldn't be as dire as they are this season.

February 6th, 2013, 3:09 pm

wjb21ndtown

Re: 2013 Lions Draft Wish List

The biggest problem with Avril was that Mayhew didn't start negotiating with him until after the draft, and he got caught with his pants down. Mayhew thought that he was going to offer Avril $8.5 or so average for multiple years and crapped his pants when Avril walked. If Mayhew knew Avril's position I have to believe he would have traded him before the draft, and IMO failing to negotiate with Avril before the draft was utterly ridiculous and that move alone should have gotten him canned. It cost the team $10 million dollars and a first/second round pick. I'd say that's a big deal.

February 6th, 2013, 4:10 pm

kdsberman

Team MVP

Joined: February 20th, 2007, 10:51 pmPosts: 3422Location: Saginaw, MI

Re: 2013 Lions Draft Wish List

wjb21ndtown wrote:

The biggest problem with Avril was that Mayhew didn't start negotiating with him until after the draft, and he got caught with his pants down. Mayhew thought that he was going to offer Avril $8.5 or so average for multiple years and crapped his pants when Avril walked. If Mayhew knew Avril's position I have to believe he would have traded him before the draft, and IMO failing to negotiate with Avril before the draft was utterly ridiculous and that move alone should have gotten him canned. It cost the team $10 million dollars and a first/second round pick. I'd say that's a big deal.

And now its very likely Avril will be gone and we will get nothing in return.

The biggest problem with Avril was that Mayhew didn't start negotiating with him until after the draft, and he got caught with his pants down. Mayhew thought that he was going to offer Avril $8.5 or so average for multiple years and crapped his pants when Avril walked. If Mayhew knew Avril's position I have to believe he would have traded him before the draft, and IMO failing to negotiate with Avril before the draft was utterly ridiculous and that move alone should have gotten him canned. It cost the team $10 million dollars and a first/second round pick. I'd say that's a big deal.

I agree with everything except the picks. No one was giving up a first or high second for Avril while also having to pay him 10-12 million a year. I'm sure a lot of people like Avril, but he's never been a good run defender or dominate enough to get something like that. That's just too many assets to give up for a fringe guy like Avril and now that I think about it we should have shopped him to Raiders before Al Davis died, probably would have gotten 2 1sts for him.

Kds we may still get a 3rd rd comp pick for him since he will sign a big contract with someone if we let him walk and we're most likely not going to sign anyone to an equal contract in free agency.