Agreed. It'll be interesting to see. If this does happen, just as Stripey said, this will have turned out better than him not writing the book at all.

stripeypants wrote:

What continues to make me most sad about all this is that I had thought for so long that finally! Finally, there is this huge group of people I know of that believe in reason. They don't buy into harmful crap! They want to see reason prevail, they want everyone to be educated!

And...they want to continue unimpeded in harassing women who only wanted to join in the skeptical community.

Unfortunately, to me, that's why I don't think religion bastardizes people. PEOPLE bastardize religion. Whether you're a theist or not, people created religion. Then they bastardized it. (It's completely a different discussion than if man created God or not.) Man chose how to worship, when to manipulate religions for his own good, and when to be a dick to people, even when your OWN religion says NOT to.

Basically, to me, I believe just because someone shares a belief system like being a skeptic, Christian, or whatever, won't mean they are smarter than anyone else. Belief in things has to do with faith. And when I followed atheism in college, I learned how far we were from science giving any real proof more than mainstream religions. It's all observable evidence. Which is good. But as "scientific" theists have shown, there's a lot of reasoning why science could speak FOR religion if it chose. Therefore all of it is a faith-based practice, which often doesn't actually denote intelligence. Intelligence and where you place your faith diverge, because there's human emotions that become involved and many other psychological things. I've seen almost as many intelligent religious folks as I have in Atheist circles.

Basically, that's where Feminism and other equal rights messages come in. Because old-world notions of society are the enemy. It just happens that most "RELIGIONS" have allied themselves with that notion as well as other shitty things like marginalizing women. Unfortunately, simply breaking from religion doesn't change society or human beings.

Snorri wrote:

stripeypants wrote:

On another note, I am once again feeling frustrated at skeptical atheists who are also MRAs. Someone whose videos I love to follow made a rebuttal to Anita Sarkeesian's Tropes Vs Women. I haven't watched it, as my tablet is having spotty youtube playing ability. I don't know if I want to watch it, because I have a good idea of what they're going to say already and it is really tiresome.

There are a bunch of legitimate gripes with Sarkeesian's videos and arguments. It is possible that a response can be critical and fair and still give credit.

I dunno the chances of that happening, but waiting to see it can't be a bad thing.

Yeah, I'm sure it's a slim chance. Not that I disagree with what else you said. Unfortunately, I've seen some level-headed criticism of her that's pretty spot on. I feel she never really makes any strong arguments, only posts about negative things. Half the time, I end up thinking she should have focused on something else, that she's chosen to pursue something that doesn't imply what she says it does instead of focusing on issues I saw in games she never brought up. She often seems to lay blame in such a way as to alienate people she could be converting. (Like possibly the guy above whose may very well be simply misguided) She does have good points. But I see why many Feminists have called her a radical feminist. I don't necessarily think she should stop or anything like that, but I do think SOME of the criticism is worth merit. No one is born perfect.

However, 99% of the time, the criticism is not the constructive kind. It's just whining about shit. However, she still has shown a lot about the real problems. Death/rape/assault threats toward her? Yeah. Look at how "reasonable" her opposition is. I guess time will tell if anything comes out of it besides the big initial spotlight that Kickstarter's existence put on the fact that times need to change and many are getting ready for it._________________

What continues to make me most sad about all this is that I had thought for so long that finally! Finally, there is this huge group of people I know of that believe in reason. They don't buy into harmful crap! They want to see reason prevail, they want everyone to be educated!

And...they want to continue unimpeded in harassing women who only wanted to join in the skeptical community.

This may sound mean, and I do not mean for it to sound mean, but-

Clearly, they DO buy into harmful crap, if, as you say, they want to continue unimpeded in harassing women in such a manner. And that such harmful crap can, and perhaps may, stem from sources other than religion. There are a LOT of people I've met that are atheists or skeptics that fall into the *same trap* I see Christians and other religious people fall into.

"Oh, it's RELIGION that makes people do bad things, so since I'm not religious, I won't do such horrible things.". (Much like I have seen folks go "Oh, it's non christians who do such eivl things! Surely I can never do evil, as a christian.").

Even among skeptics, it seems, metacognition is in short supply. =/. If they're not willing to look at the motivations for their *own* actions, beliefs, willing to accept the fact that not being religious *does not* make them immune from performing the same damn follies and evils, that the people who did such evils weren't monsters or brain washed drones, but simply people-

Then they are going to fail and fuck up just as hard, 'reason' or no. As we are unfortunately seeing. =/._________________"No, but evil is still being --Is having reason-- Being reasonable! Mousie understands? Is always being reason. Is punishing world for not being... Like in head. Is always reason. World should be different, is reason."
-Ed, from Digger

I think I forgot to add something o tht. I meant it sarcastically, that I thought skeptics were going to generally not buy into harmful crap - then it turned out they did.

And yeah, I'm sure some people are airing legitimate gripes. I personally don't know that much about games, so there is less I can say about it. Based on what i've seen in her other videos, she could probably benefit from having a few more people n the project - to broaden perspective, maybe. I can't pinpoint what it is I want to see improved.

In other news, I downloaded an app called Fairune the other day. I was looking for retro games, and this reminded me of Zelda: Link's Awakening. (Played that game with my siblings for two years, never figured out how to win. Dug a lot of rupees!)

I thought it was just a clone, but it was actually really fun and original. And the only player character is a girl who isn't sexualized, handles a sword, and solves complex problems. I was pleased and would have been thrilled with it as a kid.

I remembered that there was discussion here awhile go about a Zelda game where Link is replaced with Zelda as the player character, so I thought I'd mention it._________________[Stripeypants has enabled lurk mode.]

To throw my 2 bits in, as someone who could probably fall in between the two groups in question:

I've had some really great progressive conversations with people who are definitely religious, on everything ranging from LGBT issues to space exploration. I've run into some shitty religious people too, the kind who think we should take the bible literally and stone people to death.

I've had some absolutely awful conversations with atheists, from charging priests with fraud to outlawing religion all together. On the flip side, I've had some very pleasant conversations with self-identified atheists, as well.

Ultimately, as it's been expounded again and again on this forum re: everything, pretty much every group out there will have at least a few good apples, and some bad ones as well. The trick is not letting the few bad ones spoil the whole barrel.

As for Sarkeesian, there are a couple legitimate arguments. Regarding some game franchises (Double Dragon comes to mind) she makes some blanket statements that don't actually apply to some games in said franchise._________________Hangman, hangman, hold it a little while, I think I see my brother coming, riding many a mile.

I thought it was just a clone, but it was actually really fun and original. And the only player character is a girl who isn't sexualized, handles a sword, and solves complex problems. I was pleased and would have been thrilled with it as a kid.

I remembered that there was discussion here awhile go about a Zelda game where Link is replaced with Zelda as the player character, so I thought I'd mention it.

Ooh nifty sounding. And yeah, I have wanted to play as Zelda myself since...FOREVER. =P I've been playing all the Zelda games since I was young, and ever since Ocarina of Time, when Zelda went in disguise and helped link out a bunch, I have wanted to see that as a game.

And yeah Fritter, I find the big issue we face is bigotry itself. Any time I see the "religious nut" or "ranting atheist" type, I just sigh to myself. When people take it to the extreme that they brand everyone who is of another group as lesser in some way, that's when they begin to make their own cause seem less._________________

I like the Thinking Atheist and Philhellenes. While on the Thinking Atheist show, Philhellenes said he's found people who were jerks before becoming atheists remain jerks after. And I've found that to be true - people who were rude evangelists while religious can keep the same style and everything._________________[Stripeypants has enabled lurk mode.]

I think I forgot to add something o tht. I meant it sarcastically, that I thought skeptics were going to generally not buy into harmful crap - then it turned out they did.

Ah, apologies, I missed the sarcasm!_________________"No, but evil is still being --Is having reason-- Being reasonable! Mousie understands? Is always being reason. Is punishing world for not being... Like in head. Is always reason. World should be different, is reason."
-Ed, from Digger

I'm so fucking angry I can't watch the actual hearing because I will probably have an anxiety attack listening to condescending rich assholes talk down to her and not understand what is going on at the same time. I'm literally relying on twitter and tumblr to keep me informed this is so broken I can't even._________________Samsally the GrayAce

Last I heard they ruled that she violated the rules a third time and tried to end the filibuster. That call was appealed so I don't know what's going on just yet. The session was supposed to end 9 minutes ago.

Yeah... Twitter is just regurgitating shit at this point and I'm super lost. The audience started chanting "Let her go" for a while.

Senators are milling around a lot.

This is horrible, is this really how we politic because it's complete bullshit as far as I can tell. I shouldn't have to have a political science degree to understand what the fuck is happening because I should have actual reliable media telling me the basics.

I'm so horrified by how unlikely that would be, even if our major media sources were -fucking awake- right now.

You can get literal play by play coverage of sports games to the second why is this hard this shouldn't be hard._________________Samsally the GrayAce

This is horrible, is this really how we politic because it's complete bullshit as far as I can tell. I shouldn't have to have a political science degree to understand what the fuck is happening because I should have actual reliable media telling me the basics.

More than that, why should we leave determination of procedure up to whether or not a person can stand upright for a really long time? Like, why even micromanage the rules to that level? At the very least, this prevents any wheelchair-bound legislators from ever using a filibuster. Surely that runs afoul of the Americans with Disabilities Act, right?

Quote:

You can get literal play by play coverage of sports games to the second why is this hard this shouldn't be hard.

More than that, why should we leave determination of procedure up to whether or not a person can stand upright for a really long time? Like, why even micromanage the rules to that level? At the very least, this prevents any wheelchair-bound legislators from ever using a filibuster. Surely that runs afoul of the Americans with Disabilities Act, right?