Guy is one of the very best in fighting Sharingan users. Overall Itachi is definitely more skilled, but Guy is the perfect guy to counter him. Guy takes this. I'd say he'd probably win by the Sixth Gate.

AsianReaper wrote:
Guy is one of the very best in fighting Sharingan users. Overall Itachi is definitely more skilled, but Guy is the perfect guy to counter him. Guy takes this. I'd say he'd probably win by the Sixth Gate.

Guy can't beat healthy Itachi (without 8 Gates). He can't use the gate forever and he can't break the Susanoo (gates above the 5. are much painful and they have time limit-).

This is pretty obvious that Guy would win. It's safe to to assume that Madara, being the Ten-Tails jinchuuriki with one Rinnegan could beat Itachi easily, with minor trouble. Guy nearly beat Madara, but as Minato 87 said, the plot always defeats the purpose. So, as I said, Guy would best and beat Itachi. Guy in the Sixth of the Eight Gates could also probably take Itachi on, so yeah this is my assumption and opinion.

AsianReaper wrote:
@minato, NinjaofWar did include the gates in his statement. So yeah, He almost certainly can break Susanoo. Maybe not Complete Body, but Itachi doesn't have that so it doesn't matter.

I meant without all 8 gates he can't break the Susanoo. With all gates he can destroy even the PS.

But ... Itachi doesn't have a stabilized (aka. Complete Body) Susanoo. Gai wrecked Madara's armored one (I think it was armored) (who had EMS, Rinnegan and magic Hashi cells) with 7 gates in a second. I don't get how Itachi survives this.

In any case, Itachi wouldn't start the fight with Susanoo. I can see Itachi trying to catch Guy in genjutsu and that not working because Guy can fight perfectly fine without eye contact, though not sure about the finger jutsu.

I'm gonna go in for Itachi. Key thing I think people are missing is that Itachi isn't a retard, and he doesn't fight fair. He's not going to Susano'o unless he has to, and he's sure as hell not going to try to use it in an all-out brawl with the Eight Gates. All he really has to do it survive longer than Guy can keep the gates up, and misdirection is something Itachi is crazy good at. All he needs is to push Guy as far as he can through his considerable own martial prowess, summon a clone, swap with it in some way and disappear, and Guy's stuck in a painful, taxing gate until he closes it or runs out of stamina to keep it up, and in the former case I get the impression that activating the gates is a little harder than simply flipping a light switch on and off and on.

Guy outside of a gate is no match, and even if Guy used the 8th gate, Itachi almost guaranteed knows how to use Izanagi given his knowledge of both it and and Izanami, whose purpose is to counter it. He could even just use Izanagi to eat a direct hit and give Guy a big ol' wet, sloppy point blank Amaterasu kiss which Guy won't see coming since he's not a sensor that I know of and won't be looking at Itachi's eyes.

^I'm pretty sure everyone knows Itachi isn't a retard and won't use the MS nless he really has too in which he would against Guy, no doubt about it. I'm sure in taijutsu Guy and Itachi would go at it but with Gates, there is no way Itachi is keeping up and not even the Amaterasu eill be of use. His best bet is Susanoo trying to tank his hits and waiting for a good opening. The thing is Guy is quite smart despite his short term memory and childish behavior. He's at least battle smart. He knows to keep his eyes from locking into Itachi and jas practice this for years, facing Kakashi numerous of times. I leaning in for Guy here, at least opening 6th gates to defeat Itachi with ultimately high difficulty.

Hate to be bringer of bad news but no evidence that the night guy can break through the yata mirror. The night guy definitely showcased an impressive amount of energy however it at best only broke a portion of madara's upper body, meanwhile sasuke with his regular Kusangi was able to slice that same madara in half,with ease ,meaning ridkou madara has the durability of a regular human despite immortality. And through out the fight we dont really see any real feats, as madara gets tossed around and only has a couple of bruises and scratches. Guy wasnt even shown breaking through the truth seeking ball defense, as it was kakashi who teleported away a good portion of it so that guy could get a direct hit on madara. Madara mostly had fun and guy's efforts were meaningless in the end, only for naruto jesus to steal the spotlight. So can night guy break through even susanoo, I do think it could break it partially, but still there is the yata mirror which creates a big problem. I do think that gai is better at taijutsu than itachi, because Guy works on his taijutsu more than anyone else in the series since its the only thing he can do. I envison the fight starting with taijutsu, and eventually he forces itachi to use ninjutsu and such, to which he responds with the gates. However, there is always the chance guy would get caught in tsyukyomi, even though he canocially counters uchiha genjutsu by focusing on their legs. However, itachi can simply squat if he is does that, and if that doesnt work there are methods in which guy could potentially be caught. So I have to give this one to itachi 9 times out of ten unless I missed something about 8 gates guy.

Guy should take this with 7th Gate at most, IMO. Guy has crazy strength and speed with his gates. Itachi will find it very difficult to keep up with Guy. Also, it's highly likely that Guy will break Itachi's Armoured Susanoo with Hirudora, unless it is countered by Yata Mirror. But there is no evidence whatsoever that Yata Mirror is omnidirectional, so Guy can attack the Susanoo from behind. Also, even if it's healthy Itachi, he still has stamina issues. Guy's wartime feats prove that he's wayyyy more durable than Itachi even with the gates on.

As for you, MIGshinobi, you're comparing the feats of a Hagoromo-enhanced Sasgay with a comparatively normal shinobi like Guy. The fight with Juubito clearly shows how durable a Juubi Jinchuriki is. And Madara was the superior Juubi Jinchuriki, not Obito. So that feat of "normal" chidori chopping Madara into half was almost definitely because of Rikudo enhancements. If that wasn't the case, then Sasgay's feat is a huge Plot Hole no Jutsu. The only sensible way to explain this away is that Sasgay's Rikudo enhancements did the job. Just because the "normal" chidori didn't appear black doesn't mean that the Rikudo enhancements didn't play a role. It almost certainly did, otherwise it's a huge, gaping plot hole.

So if Guy can wreck Juubidara's body without senjutsu or Rikudo enhancements, then Itachi's Susanoo can be wrecked as well.

MlGshinobi wrote:
Hate to be bringer of bad news but no evidence that the night guy can break through the yata mirror.

You know, he was too fast for Madara (who is physically nearly fast as FTG) with Evening Elephant. He can hit Susanoo from behind. Night Guy can bend the space and pass trough the Susanoo (Susanoo is made of substance-Chakra, and everything which is made of substance has mass).

BakumatsuWarrior wrote:
Guy should take this with 7th Gate at most, IMO. Guy has crazy strength and speed with his gates. Itachi will find it very difficult to keep up with Guy. Also, it's highly likely that Guy will break Itachi's Armoured Susanoo with Hirudora, unless it is countered by Yata Mirror. But there is no evidence whatsoever that Yata Mirror is omnidirectional, so Guy can attack the Susanoo from behind. Also, even if it's healthy Itachi, he still has stamina issues. Guy's wartime feats prove that he's wayyyy more durable than Itachi even with the gates on.

What evidence is there at hiru
As for you, MIGshinobi, you're comparing the feats of a Hagoromo-enhanced Sasgay with a comparatively normal shinobi like Guy. The fight with Juubito clearly shows how durable a Juubi Jinchuriki is. And Madara was the superior Juubi Jinchuriki, not Obito. So that feat of "normal" chidori chopping Madara into half was almost definitely because of Rikudo enhancements. If that wasn't the case, then Sasgay's feat is a huge Plot Hole no Jutsu. The only sensible way to explain this away is that Sasgay's Rikudo enhancements did the job. Just because the "normal" chidori didn't appear black doesn't mean that the Rikudo enhancements didn't play a role. It almost certainly did, otherwise it's a huge, gaping plot hole.

So if Guy can wreck Juubidara's body without senjutsu or Rikudo enhancements, then Itachi's Susanoo can be wrecked as well.

What evidence do you have that hiruda can break armored susanoo? We have been through this in the other thread, there is no evidence the yata mirror can't be omnidirectional. The shield is said to change any of its properties with no known limit, and changed in size in the canon to respond to an attack.
Just because itachi has lower stamina doesnt mean it will be come a battle of stamina, as he has several jutsu that can one shot guy, including one that only requires brief eye contact. And no not really, as even sasukes regular sword pierced through madara with ease lol.ridoku madara is just flesh, he doesn't have chakra armor like other jinchurki.

Okay, well here's this piece. When Itachi and Sasuke were hit with Kabuto's sound and light attack, why didn't Itachi manifest the Yata Mirror around them? Both were able to maintain Susanoo for a few moments before it dissipated, why not shoot it around them to protect them? Sound is physical: vibrations through the air. The Yata Mirror is said to negate any attack, physical or spiritual. So Itachi's Yata Mirror should be sound proof by that logic.

Itachi was even able to use Susanoo to protect Sasuke during the attack. So where was the Yata Mirror?

He didnt use it for an infinite amount of reasons, one being due to Plot induced stupidity. Its the same reason why he didnt use it when he was still being controlled by kabuto and stab naruto from the beginning with totuska blade or the same reason he didnt use tsyukyomi immediately on bee when he made eye contact and just used sharingan genjustu instead, or why he didnt use it when nagato was still on his bird. If itachi used the yata mirror then there was nothing kabuto could have done, and also there was no point in using the yata mirror because he needed physical contact to do izanami. The whole fight he barely used susanoo to begin with and only in its premature stages, so there are number of reasons as to why it wasnt used. What im saying would normally be a weak argument, however the databook confirms that the yata mirror should be able to deal with a sound based attack. The other problem is if the yata mirror becomes sound proof it means itachi cant hear through it as well which means one of his 5 senses is impaired.

</div>Six paths Madara does have chakra armour how do you think he survived Might Guy's assault via the eighth gate.
</div>

No he doesn't. The only time jinhcurki have chakra cloaks are in version 1 and version 2 tailed beast states. Madara or obito have not shown that, they were both flesh. Madara just wears clothes as well, as sasukes regular sword pierced straight through his heart. Madara survived the 8 gates the same way he survived being bisecterd, immortality+ regeneration.

MlGshinobi wrote:
No he doesn't. The only time jinhcurki have chakra cloaks are in version 1 and version 2 tailed beast states. Madara or obito have not shown that, they were both flesh. Madara just wears clothes as well, as sasukes regular sword pierced straight through his heart. Madara survived the 8 gates the same way he survived being bisecterd, immortality+ regeneration.

TTJ Obito and TTJ Madara had chakra cloaks.....Madara had a more refined and definite chakra cloak

MlGshinobi wrote:
No he doesn't. The only time jinhcurki have chakra cloaks are in version 1 and version 2 tailed beast states. Madara or obito have not shown that, they were both flesh. Madara just wears clothes as well, as sasukes regular sword pierced straight through his heart. Madara survived the 8 gates the same way he survived being bisecterd, immortality+ regeneration.

TTJ Obito and TTJ Madara had chakra cloaks.....Madara had a more refined and definite chakra cloak

No they didnt. Black zetsu pierced through madara's heart with his bare hands. Sasukes regular sword pierced through it as well. You can clearly tell the ten tail jinhcurki werent wearing chakra cloaks like 4 tailed naruto was. Orochimaru wasnt able to pierce the kyuubi cloak with his kusangi, so no the ten tails jinhcurki is just flesh and clothes. They are immortal but they still have the durability of a normal human.

MlGshinobi wrote:
No they didnt. Black zetsu pierced through madara's heart with his bare hands. Sasukes regular sword pierced through it as well. You can clearly tell the ten tail jinhcurki werent wearing chakra cloaks like 4 tailed naruto was. Orochimaru wasnt able to pierce the kyuubi cloak with his kusangi, so no the ten tails jinhcurki is just flesh and clothes. They are immortal but they still have the durability of a normal human.

Chakra cloaks =/= Piercing resistance. Heck, Naruto was pierced by Sasuke's sword when he was donning a cloak. TTJs have the durability of normal people? Seriously? So you're saying that a normal person can take a senjutsu-enhance Rasengan and a high-level taijutsu that bends space? Juubito didn't have a cloak, your were right about that (surprisingly). But TTJ Madara definitely had a chakra cloak, chakra was even stemming from the cloak as shown here

But then that makes no sense. Well I guess obito didnt have a cloak because he had less tailed beasts, he only had a small portion of the 8 tails and nine tails, while madara gained the whole eight tails plus half the nine tails. But it also doesnt make sense that sasukes regular sword pierced through madara's cloak lol. That implies that 4 tails kyuubi cloak is sturdier than ttj madara.In the other manga panels they made it seem like it was just clothes on madara. And on two occasions black zetsu obito was able to pierce madara with there bare hands lol. When black zetsu betrayed madara his hand went through him like it was nothing. Guess call it plot no jutsu

MlGshinobi wrote:
But then that makes no sense. Well I guess obito didnt have a cloak because he had less tailed beasts, he only had a small portion of the 8 tails and nine tails, while madara gained the whole eight tails plus half the nine tails. But it also doesnt make sense that sasukes regular sword pierced through madara's cloak lol. That implies that 4 tails kyuubi cloak is sturdier than ttj madara.In the other manga panels they made it seem like it was just clothes on madara. And on two occasions black zetsu obito was able to pierce madara with there bare hands lol. When black zetsu betrayed madara his hand went through him like it was nothing. Guess call it plot no jutsu

Also neither Guy nor Itachi have chakra cloaks so it wouldn't be a factor.

Anyways, after readin the arguments for both sides, I'm still on Guy's side. But less so than I was previously. I forgot how good Itachi is with misdirection. So even though Guy is very good at fighting Sharingan and has his Gates, I say he only wins 55 out of 100. This excludes the eighth gate of course.

MlGshinobi wrote:
But then that makes no sense. Well I guess obito didnt have a cloak because he had less tailed beasts, he only had a small portion of the 8 tails and nine tails, while madara gained the whole eight tails plus half the nine tails. But it also doesnt make sense that sasukes regular sword pierced through madara's cloak lol. That implies that 4 tails kyuubi cloak is sturdier than ttj madara.In the other manga panels they made it seem like it was just clothes on madara. And on two occasions black zetsu obito was able to pierce madara with there bare hands lol. When black zetsu betrayed madara his hand went through him like it was nothing. Guess call it plot no jutsu

It does matter because then it means madara isnt that durable in six paths form. It just means he is immortal. A weaker version of narutos cloak couldnt be pierced by a sword, so how is his full kurama chakra mode piercable by a sword? I need to see what you are talking sbout, as thst is yet snother inconsistency unless naruto made his chakra ethereal. He has been shown to do that such as when guy and kakashi were able to pass through his cloak.
@Asian, I know, but where is the evidence that 7 gates guy can break armored susanoo? And also the chakra cloak discussion is because if madara isnt that durable to begin with, it makes the night guy look pretty weak when it shouldnt be.

Guy broke though the TSB protection that Madara set up (Kakashi opened one side, Guy broke through the other). That same protection protected Obito from four Ten Tails Tailed Beast Bombs, and each of those bombs had the power to wipe out entire villages when shot from kilometers out. That's testament to Guy's power, and TTJ Madara's durability.

Also, if you were wondering when Sasuke's sword pierced Naruto's cloak, it was in Naruto Gaiden.

Regarding whether or not Daytime Tiger can break Armour Susanoo, I don't have proof. But there's no proof that it can't either. This part is really just speculation. didn't it completely obliterate one of Madara's Susanoos at one point? The wiki says it's Complete Susanoo (not Complete Body), but it doesn't give a reference.

Ok that makes sense, however, madara being pierced by and sliced in half by swords doesn't. I get that the pressure of a sword is high, but a sword shouldn't be going through madara when he can tank much more forceful attacks with more relative ease. Naruto being pierced by that sword makes no sense becauee his weaker kyubbi cloaks werent pierced by swords at all. Ok, im more likely to believe that night guy can break susanoo now.
The day time tiger broke susanoo partially , but then we didnt see what happened because it was off panel I think. Ill have to look that up.

Okay if Guy goes 8th gate then this is a draw cause they are both dying, no way Itachi can survive a beating and Susanoo might be strong and Yata Mirror might be op but nothing compares to Jubi, the source of all Chakra and yet Gai gave Madara Jubi form a run for his money and almost killed him. If not, then Guy might be killed by Genjutsu, and no Temple of Nirvana is not a feat because Kakashi also broke it and still couldn't beat Tsukuyomi also so did Genin Sakura, Shikamaru, etc etc, yet I doubt they'd prove much of a match. Gai might not look into his eyes, but Itachi has a way to force people to doing it and has done it on high classed Shinobi. He also can just point his finger and bam. Gai's speed is definitely a factor but speed is something Itachi is used to dealing with from fighting Shisui who is known as Shisui of the Flicker, also the Sharingan is a factor in this since it will analyze Gai's every move. Gai is also not very bright, he might just punch a Clone Destruction by mistake and get himself wounded badly, I can see Itachi outsmarting him.

You are talking as if thats the only time he caught someone in his genjustu. He caught bee ( though bee isn't that impressive because psychologically he knows gyuki will break him out, so he is a bit more careless), naruto, kakashi's shadow clone, and even sensors were impressed by his ability to catch people in genjutsu I just don't like the logic that every one will be able to flawlessly avoid eye contact 100 percent of the time. If it was that easy, no one would get caught in visual genjustu at all. You obviously cant avoid it in every situation when in this case the caster is a sharingan user who has precognition, and the fact that itachi is extremely intelligent too.
The only people who can avoid it completely are sage mode kabuto, and zabuza like 99 percent of the time because of hidden mist plus he can detect targets by sound alone.

MlGshinobi wrote:
You are talking as if thats the only time he caught someone in his genjustu. He caught bee ( though bee isn't that impressive because psychologically he knows gyuki will break him out, so he is a bit more careless), naruto, kakashi's shadow clone,

Wow he caught Kakashi's clone into genjutsu, because that was part of Kakashi's plan. He didn't catch Naruto in Tsukuyomi.

No it wasnt. His plan was to use the shadow clone to hold itachi in place. Itachi used taijutsu to force the clone to look into his eyes. I never said he caught naruto in tsyukyomi, he caught him in genjustu. He only needs a finger to cast genjutsu. Even if guy avoids eye contact, he still can get caught in ephemeral. Even if guy does break it, the question is will he break it in time, as itachi will be stabbing him with a kunai or totsuka blade since genjustu is simply the distraction. And the whole thing about guy breaking some other A rank genjustu is misleading, as just because two techniques are the same rank doesnt mean they do the same damage. Rasengan and chidori are both A rank, yet it was admitted by jiraiya, kakashi, and even sasuke thatrasengan was the stronger technique. The fact that naruto wasn't able to break ephemeral is a testament to itachi's skill, as breaking genjutsu according to jiriaya is a feat of how much chakra you can use to forcibly remove the malicious genjutsu chakra. Naruto has ten times the amount of chakra itachi has, yet still couldn't focus it enough to break the genjustu. I don't see any conclusive evidence that guy would be able to break ephemeral since he doesnt have a sharingan to help, and even if he can I doubt he is doing it in time.

MlGshinobi wrote:
No it wasnt. His plan was to use the shadow clone to hold itachi in place. Itachi used taijutsu to force the clone to look into his eyes. I never said he caught naruto in tsyukyomi, he caught him in genjustu. He only needs a finger to cast genjutsu. Even if guy avoids eye contact, he still can get caught in ephemeral. Even if guy does break it, the question is will he break it in time, as itachi will be stabbing him with a kunai or totsuka blade since genjustu is simply the distraction. And the whole thing about guy breaking some other A rank genjustu is misleading, as just because two techniques are the same rank doesnt mean they do the same damage. Rasengan and chidori are both A rank, yet it was admitted by jiraiya, kakashi, and even sasuke thatrasengan was the stronger technique. The fact that naruto wasn't able to break ephemeral is a testament to itachi's skill, as breaking genjutsu according to jiriaya is a feat of how much chakra you can use to forcibly remove the malicious genjutsu chakra. Naruto has ten times the amount of chakra itachi has, yet still couldn't focus it enough to break the genjustu. I don't see any conclusive evidence that guy would be able to break ephemeral since he doesnt have a sharingan to help, and even if he can I doubt he is doing it in time.

And itachi can counter that by suddenly squatting and placing his eyes or fingers in guys line of sight. You are forgetting the sharingan has precognition, and not looking around properly leaves guy vulnerable to attacks as he cant see due to his limited scope of vision.. So while he is looking at itachis feet he wont see the totsuka blade coming in to stab him in the neck. And itachi due to his skill and intelligence can create smoke screens via paper bombs, smoke bomb, and exploding shadow clones. And in that smoke screen guy will lose track of itachis feet, and the second he makes one wrong look he can be caught in tsyukyomi

Guy doesn't just look at his opponent's feet, he would look at their hands as well, to see their movements and what signs they weave for their jutsu. Do you really think that Guy would be helpless if Itachi uses a smoke bomb? It doesn't really help Itachi to use a smoke bomb as it would impede his sharingan. Guy is definitely one of the worst opponents for Itachi.

No it wouldn't. The point is that in the smoke screen Guy can't see itachi anymore and now he has to look around or else he will be attacked from his blind spot. The second he looks for where itachi is he can accidentally make eye contact which is GG. And lol if guy looks at his hands he is caught in ephemeral

I think you are really underestimating Guy here. As stated before smoke bombs would impede the Sharingan's vision, making it easier for Guy. Guy can fight just as well without his vision, he is a master in taijutsu, meaning also a master of his senses. Itachi's regular genjutsu can be broken and that is only if Guy gets caught. How is Itachi even going to have time to cast genjutsu when it's going to take all of his attention to deal with Guy's taijutsu?

Lol You all seem to think Itachi only as Em, he also has his Demonic Illusions which were used on Orochimaru without Eye Contact, Shackling Stakes Technique is an example. Or Mirage Crow? Etc, etc. People always underestimate one of the most overpowered characters over fanboyism. I absolutely hate Itachi's character, I find him and his clan garbage and im glad 99% percent were killed. Even so, they're still the most op clan under Otsutsuki.

But they arent very good reasons though. Its the same reasoning that everyone can instantly avoid eye contact in every single scenario which is bs, no one would get caught in visual genjustu by that logic. I gave a perfect ly valid scenario where there is a high chance of him getting caught by accident. Guy fighting with his eyes closed is no sage mode kabuto. If he can't see then he wont able to react to attacks effectively. Im not saying itachi is guarantee d to catch him, but its very possible with his intelligence. Guy will only be able to fight itachi in taijutsu effective ly with his eyes closed. If itachi creates distance, that wont work as guy isnt a sensor type nor does he have zabuza's ability to detect by just sound. So if he needs to reopen his eyes to see where itachi is, that could be the death of him. Guy opening the 8 gates, even if by some miracle he breaks the yata mirror, the battle still ends in a draw, and 7 gates guy couldnt fully break a lower stage of susanoo

In the same way you believe Itachi will catch Guy in genjutsu despite Guy being an expert at avoiding eye contact with Sharingan users. Not saying it won't work but I'm just saying it's a very low possibility. But what is a very high possibility is Guy wrecking Susanoo with 5 gates or more.

He is an expert in avoiding eye contact but he doesnt have intel on itachis ability to use his fingers for genjustu. Im saying in close quarters guy has the advantage but if itachi creates a smoke screen with distance guy cant see where itachi is. If he cant see, when the smoke clears what if itachi is squatting on the ground? Guy who focuses on the ground would immediately be caught is what im saying so? Madara's susanoo tanked 7 gates and that was a lower stage than armored susanoo

@Rachin Guy opening all eight gates is over powered bro, that ninja almost killed Jubi Madara, and as I stated if he goes 8th Gate he easily wins, but if not, I believe he loses. You guys claim Gai won't be in Genjutsu cause he avoids eye contact, I provided multiple Genjutsu techniques where Itachi doesn't use eye contact, therefore you're argument is invalid.

MlGshinobi wrote:
He is an expert in avoiding eye contact but he doesnt have intel on itachis ability to use his fingers for genjustu. Im saying in close quarters guy has the advantage. Madara's susanoo tanked 7 gates and that was a lower stage than armored susanoo

Susanoo is overpowered by itself, then give it the Tosuka Blade and Yata Mirror and it's on a different level. Not that those tools will help in this case. I never said Itachi won't catch Guy in genjutsu but it's unlikely. For that finger genjutsu. Guy was able to dispel a A-rank level genjutsu, that genjutsu he used on Naruto won't be anything as even Naruto was close to breaking it.

MlGshinobi wrote:
but if itachi creates a smoke screen with distance guy cant see where itachi is. If he cant see, when the smoke clears what if itachi is squatting on the ground? Guy who focuses on the ground would immediately be caught is what im saying so?

That begs the question. Will Guy just sitting there and where would the distance then between them be. Also Guy doesn't only have to look at the ground, just below the opponent's face.

Yes but see then thats a problem, because guy canoically does so by looking at their feet. Itachi just needs to squat during the smoke screen. Even if he looks below his face, whats stoping itachi from raising his finger or hunching over lol.
As I said before guy breaking the genjustu of some fodder ninja isnt the same as breaking it from argubaly the second best genjutsu specialist in the series behind shisui.Ranks dont necessarily matter, as they only show the relative potency of the jutsu. Rasengan and chidori are both A rank, but canoically rasengan was said to be the stronger jutsu. So that logic doesnt work. And no naruto was no where near close to breaking it, even though he has a lot more chakra than itachi. Thatsa testament to itachis prowess in illusions. He needed to be released by sakura. Even if guy is capable of focusing his chakra to release it, then question still remains will he break it before being stabbed by totuska. Itachi wasnt even going full force against naruto during their little skirmish and that was a clone with only 30 percent of his strength. Nor did he try to captilize on naruto being paralyzed as that was a 4 on 1 fight. Also it depends on the distance they start at , and guy isnt a sensor type so charging into the smoke against a target he can't see would be foolish. And distance can be created using bunshin feints with smoke screens.

Kabuto is not a fodder. What I meant was that Itachi complimented Naruto's efforts of trying to break it. I know he needed Sakura and Chiyo's help to break it, everyone knows. And like I said you just think Guy will just be sitting at the sane spot looking when a smokescreen being created is an obvious diversion but yes Guy wouldn't think that. He'll just think Itachi is just playing hide and go seek.

I didnt know it was kabuto who used it because the user who first posted that as an argument didn't even bother mentioning the jutsu casters name, so I assumed fodder. The reason is because of who we are talking about. Imo the genjustu prowess of itachi and shisui shouldnt be so easily comparable to everyone else. Kabuto is good at genjutsu no doubt and isnt fodder, but to say he is on itachis level is farfetched.
Itachi complimented naruto on having matured, but the second naruto began his attempt to break it itachi took measures to prevent it, and naruto was panicking until sakura released him

Yes , but guy is limiting his area of vision. If he is looking at the ground, there is no way he can see where itachi is with a smoke screen up. Even if he doesnt stand still, what is he gonna do when he doesnt know where itachi is or any bunshin feint he might have done duringthe smoke scren, and keep in mind the clones can also cast ninjutsu and genjustu. The second guy looks up he can get caught because you are forgetting that itachi has no reason to limit his area of vision and also has sharingan preccognition to track where guy is looking. Im not saying its guaranteed to work work of course, but itachi has a better field of vision and has the sharingan, and guy is limited to taijutsu and isnt a sensor type.

@MIGshinobi Wow you got it all figured out don't you. Itachi will use a smokescreen, Itachi will duck and Guy will just keep looking at the same spit where Itachi is despite he doesn't know if he moved or not or is planning a sneak attack. But yes Guy will just stand there and and get caught by genjutsu when the smoke clears and sees Itachi who for some reason can also see through the smoke and tell where Guy will be looking directly at despite the smoke covers a significant part pf the area but yup Itachi will do it. Smh

Rachin123 wrote:
@MIGshinobi Wow you got it all figured out don't you. Itachi will use a smokescreen, Itachi will duck and Guy will just keep looking at the same spit where Itachi is despite he doesn't know if he moved or not or is planning a sneak attack. But yes Guy will just stand there and and get caught by genjutsu when the smoke clears and sees Itachi who for some reason can also see through the smoke and tell where Guy will be looking directly at despite the smoke covers a significant part pf the area but yup Itachi will do it. Smh

That's not what my main point is, thats the simplest scenario. The fact that itachi can make at least one exploding shadow clone as well as crow clones gives him a huge advantage against someone who can't make clones, isnt a sensor type, doesnt have a sharingan, and is limited to close range taijutsu unless he immediately goes into gates. And like I said, he canoically fights sharingan users by always looking at their feet/ ground. He has no intel on the fact itachi can just cast genjustu with a finger, and not just his sharingan. So at any given point in the match, a smoke screen can be created through various means like paperbombs and smoke bombs. In the smoke, itachi can make one or two clones, one of them being the exploding type. Those clones come out of the smoke and can charge at guy and cast a ninjutsu, throw kunais or whatever and at this point guy already lost track of where the real itachi is because he is not a sensor type. Guy uses his impressive skills and kills the first clone but when the second comes in into taijutsu range, it detonates on guy, causing him to take the blunt of the explosiom, and lets say it doesn't kill him, he is now actually blinded, can't see, is disoriented, and when he comes out of the debris he knows its risky to look around at head level. Meanwhile the real itachi created distance and because shadow clone experience goes back to the user, he knows guy will be looking at the ground and his sharingan as the debris clears already gives him insight on where a disoriented guy will be looking is looking. In that frame of time, itachi can easily catch him by squatting mid distance from where he tracked guy to be looking. I dont see how you see this as an asburd possbility, when I myself said it isnt guaranteed to work, its just one of many ways things can go down. But even then, if guy is disoriented he doesnt need to even try to catch him in genjutsu at that point. He can just use the totuska blade right then and guy cant possibly seeing it coming.

But seriously @MIGshinobi, you don't see any other scenario in which the fight could go? Even in your scenario do think that Guy will just wait around in the same spot, completely oblivious to the possibility that Itachi could be preparing jutsu?

Itachi has not used any smoke bombs in the series and frankly they don't fit his style, despite the fact that smoke would hinder his visual prowess in the first place. Guy doesn't just focus on a sharingan user's feet, he focuses on their hands, body and feet. So Itachi just squatting to make eye contact is kind of ridiculous, because Guy isn't just looking at his feet. It will take Itachi all of his attention and focus to counter Guy's taijutsu, he won't have time to cast genjutsu.

P.S. The reason I say that it is very very unlikely for Guy to be caught in visual genjutsu, is because he has developed an effective method to counter the sharingan, we cannot just deny it's effectiveness because his opponent is Itachi.

There's a huge gap in difference between 8th Gate Guy, and 7th Gate Guy, if 8th Gate Guy is fighting, Itachi stands zero chance. If this is 7th Gate, Itachi has a chance. Everyone spams that Gai won't be trapped by Itachi's Genjutsu cause he looks at the muscle movement, however Kakashi also tried not looking in his eyes and look where they got him. Also I have listed techniques which don't require the target to look in Itachi's eyes so your points are flawed. I hate how people list all these darn Itachi fights, someone be creative and pick someone not an Uchiha for god sake, they're op asf.

It isnt fanboyism I just go by the feats presented and what the writer says. Writer says yata mirror deflects and turns back all spirtuial, physical, and ninjutsu attacks, therefore it does. Its that simple. What is 8 gates guy using? Taijutsu which is a physical attack. So how is it getting through the yata mirror?
Ninja of War, I clearly said multiple times it's just an example to counter the claims that its impossible for guy to get caught in genjutsu. I never said its gauranteed to work. And like I said, guy has no intel that itachi can cast genjutsu with his finger and not just his sharingan, rendering his strategy of avoidng genjustu to be far from perfect. And I never said itachi has to use smoke bombs, there are many ways to obscure guys sight as of the result from explosions caused by paper bombs, fire balls, and exploding shadow clones which itachi has used throughout the series. Guy isnt a sensor type so if he gets disoriented by an exploding shadow clone, how will he know where the real itachi is afterward?

Yet those smoke-created methods will obscure Itachi's vision too or does he have x-ray vision? Like I said before, if Guy knew that an A-rank level jutsu was a genjutsu and broke it, I have no doubt that he'd figure the Ephemeral being one too (I mean even Naruto figured it out and he's well Naruto) and breaking out in record time. As for the explosion clone, I'd give you that it might get Guy but I doubt that he'd be all that diorientated or not for very long. Guy has tooken his fair share of heavy damage and got back up rather quickly.

Im not questioning Guy's ability to break it, but the problem remains that not all A rank techniques are necessarily the same in potency as with the rasengan vs chidori example, and the problem still remains will he break it in time? The ephermeal example we have in the canon was used by a 30 percent chakra clone who was semi holding back in that fight against a chakra beast like naruto who despite his good efforts, was not able to break it by himself. But ill give guy the benefit of being able to break it, but in time? That doesn't seem as likely as itachi would captilize on that moment to try to stab him.
Itachi does not have the byukugan so yes he would he blinded by the smoke, but he has the advantage of being able to create clones as what im saying and if guy cant see him for a brief moment he wont see that itachi made a clone because he isnt a sensor type. An exploding shadow clone would at minimum disorient him if it detonates at close range to him, which is likely because guy primarily uses taijutsu. And itachi who has the sharingan and wouldnt be disoriented by the explosion ( though temporarily blinded himself) would be able to position himself better than guy would who is still disoriented from a close range explosion. If guy opens back his eyes looking in the wrong direction it could be a problem, potentially. But this assuming guy doesnt just go straight for gates, which would be a different battle.

Curse of Hatred wrote:
If there was a crossover forum, Itachi would be beating Saitama...

Yeah those annoying Itachi ass-lickers actually do go around claiming that Itachi can solo Saitama, in Facebook at least. They always have the same ready made answer:

"Itachi will put Saitama in a genjutsu and win!! But what is it that you're saying? Saitama doesn't have chakra? And because of that, he can't be put in a genjutsu? Dude, seriously, who gives a shit about important FACTS like that? All that matters to me is that my fave Itachi wins ALL THE TIME against ANY character!! Why?? Because I wear a diaper with Itachi's picture in it and masturbate to Itachi's videos every day!! That's why!!"

UltimaDude wrote:
@BakumatsuWarrior In the OPM-verse, they do have a concept of chi/aura, so genjutsu would work in that universe. But Saitama's aura can't be manipulated, so genjutsu still wouldn't work on him

Has anyone looked into the claim that the demonic illusion that casted by itachi dont require eye contact ? It says so in the wiki article. How does that even work? It should be noted kurenai's demonic illusion worked the same way. she closed her eyes and weaved hand signs and somehow caught both kisame and itachi in genjustu simultaneously. So this just adds another way guy can be caught.

ShishiHeiwa wrote:
Lol You all seem to think Itachi only as Em, he also has his Demonic Illusions which were used on Orochimaru without Eye Contact, Shackling Stakes Technique is an example. Or Mirage Crow? Etc, etc.

Oh my apologies I completely missed that. Well that explain s how shisui caught multiple people from a distance as well... and why itachi was said to be able to catch multiple targets outside the range of sensors... honestly genjustu is overpowered. Itachi needed one genjutsu just to solo one of the legendary sanin. Come to think of it, we have barely seen itachi go all out. In part one regular genjustu wouldn't be effective on kakashi because of sharingan so he decided to show off tsyukyomi. He only needed one basic genjustu to solo orochimaru, then he used a basic sharingan genjustu to solo deidara, then versus sasuke he was holding back the whole fight, then versus killer bee regular genjutsu wouldn't be effective thanks to gyuuki, versus nagato it was just a very short battle that ended with totsuka, then kabuto was immune to all visual genjustu except izanami. But then again wait, if demonic illusions arent cast through eye contact then why didnt he used it against kabuto? Is demonic illusions still considered visual genjustu even though it doesnt require eye contact?

I know he was holding back. But how do you know that wanting to save kabuto wasn't just the secondary reason? From the beginning they wanted to just catch him tsyukyomi/ sharingan genjustu to force him to use hand signs to release edo. But they couldnt do that because he shut off his eyesight But then again, demonic illusions seems to be paralytic so thats probably why, its not the type of genjustu that forces people to give up intel.

Itachi would easily win unless Guy unlocks all gates, in which case he would die after the fight anyway, and it's a draw. I don't think he would go that far before being defeated. Itachi should be sick to make this an interesting fight. Then Guy would probably win with 7 gates.

Darth Itachi wrote:
Itachi would easily win unless Guy unlocks all gates, in which case he would die after the fight anyway, and it's a draw. I don't think he would go that far before being defeated. Itachi should be sick to make this an interesting fight. Then Guy would probably win with 7 gates.

With all 8 gates Guy will easly destroy Itachi, but he will die after that.

Narutopwnu7 wrote:
6 gates guy is more than enough to deal with Itachi.

I agree with 8 gates guy beating itachi but what you said is definitely not true . Yes Genjutsu wont work on guy but you are forgetting that Itachi has susanoo . Susanoo is capable of blocking morning peacock and itachi is versatile enough to defend against 6th gates guy . 6 Gates guy do not even have many feats to put him as more powerful than itachi ....

People forget that Itachi can force someone into Genjutsu, and he only needs one finger to do so. Guy has no way period to escape once he is caught in Sharingan Genjutsu. If Gai can manage to end the fight ASAP(which he can't do) he can win. Itachi will win this one.

QuakingStar wrote:
People forget that Itachi can force someone into Genjutsu, and he only needs one finger to do so. Guy has no way period to escape once he is caught in Sharingan Genjutsu. If Gai can manage to end the fight ASAP(which he can't do) he can win. Itachi will win this one.

8th Gate is certain death for Gai too. That's a Suicide tactic. Should that even count?? That's like saying he can't beat Itachi without giving up his own life with a forbidden jutsu that without fail kills the user(except when Naruto healed him that one time, but he still becomes a cripple anyways) and what if he is caught in a Genjutsu or he kicks a crow clone instead with the Night Gai?? Then Gai dies for no reason.

Rachin123 wrote:
The only way the full Eight Gates would be needed is if Itachi uses Susanoo. Other than that, 5 to 6 gates is more than enough to deal with Itachi when it comed that sense.

It's obvious that Itachi will use Susanoo in this fight. So I think Guy will need the 8th Gate. Maybe 7th Gate could do the trick as well, but I'm not too sure right now. 8th Gate is certain death for both.

Itachi's best genjutsu relies on his Sharingan or MS. The finger jutsu is rather low level. He only ever used it on Naruto because well he's Naruto. Guy was able to not only figure out a genjutsu was being used at the Chūnin Exams (An A-rank level) but is able to break it. A Guy who isn't even known for anything outside if taijutsu did that and now you're telling me that the finger jutsu will be it for Gut. Also, Guy doesn't even need 7 gates to disappear from Itachi's line of vision.

Given that Itachi could keep up with chakra mode Naruto who equalized Ay in speed while in mere Edo form I'd say anything less than 8th gates blitzing Itachi is nonsensical but even at 8 gates Gai wouldn't disappear from Itachis sight if minato could easily perceive him

9 Arts dragon wrote:
Given that Itachi could keep up with chakra mode Naruto who equalized Ay in speed while in mere Edo form I'd say anything less than 8th gates blitzing Itachi is nonsensical but even at 8 gates Gai wouldn't disappear from Itachis sight if minato could easily perceive him

Not this again. Naruto and Itachi were chatting while fighting, and Naruto wasn't even moving that fast. Itachi sure has great speed. Part 1 Kakashi was unable to keep up with Itachi in both speed and power. But there's nothing in the manga lore that even remotely suggests that Itachi has speed comparable to Ay. Both Naruto and Edo Itachi were chatting about Sasuke and the Uchiha massacre. That fight should not be used as evidence of Itachi being as fast as Ay, because it isn't.

9 Arts dragon wrote:
Given that Itachi could keep up with chakra mode Naruto who equalized Ay in speed while in mere Edo form I'd say anything less than 8th gates blitzing Itachi is nonsensical but even at 8 gates Gai wouldn't disappear from Itachis sight if minato could easily perceive him

Madara wasn't able to keep up with EEGuy, and Madara is nearly fast as FTG. 8 Gates Guy will clean the floor with Itachi, he won't be able to do anything. Itachi's only chance is to pray for mercy.

9 Arts dragon wrote:
Given that Itachi could keep up with chakra mode Naruto who equalized Ay in speed while in mere Edo form I'd say anything less than 8th gates blitzing Itachi is nonsensical but even at 8 gates Gai wouldn't disappear from Itachis sight if minato could easily perceive him

Not this again. Naruto and Itachi were chatting while fighting, and Naruto wasn't even moving that fast. Itachi sure has great speed. Part 1 Kakashi was unable to keep up with Itachi in both speed and power. But there's nothing in the manga lore that even remotely suggests that Itachi has speed comparable to Ay. Both Naruto and Edo Itachi were chatting about Sasuke and the Uchiha massacre. That fight should not be used as evidence of Itachi being as fast as Ay, because it isn't.

Naruto wasn't being casual they were fighting hand to hand and he was keeping up with him he was being controlled by kabuto and easily countered both bee and Naruto at once Madaras speed hasn't been implied that fast either yet he easily counters bijuu mode Naruto with one hand

@Minato97
That's if he can get a blitz before Itachi traps him in Genjutsu brute force alone won't help against anything when you can trap your opponent in easy illusions he can't escape or reflect his attack with Yata . FTG minato is slower than Madara even Obito blitzed him.Madara was only overwhelmed by Gai via plot however since he should have a plethora of ways to end him even in 8 gates

Naruto was definitely being casual. And I don't know what you consider a fight but what Naruto and Itachi was doing is worth any consideration. Itachi attacked Naruto and Naruto blocked. If Naruto wanted to, he could have used his chakra arms to slash at Itachi, but he just wanted to talk to him.

And actually Madara's speed has been shown to be fast, did you not see what he did to the Fourth Division within a few moments?

Naruto was definitely being casual. And I don't know what you consider a fight but what Naruto and Itachi was doing is worth any consideration. Itachi attacked Naruto and Naruto blocked. If Naruto wanted to, he could have used his chakra arms to slash at Itachi, but he just wanted to talk to him.

And actually Madara's speed has been implied to be fast, did you not what he did to the Fourth Division within a few moments?

Blitzing fodders is not even remotely impressive

And no he wasn't I've got the chapter Chapter 549 Page 6
he kept up with both bee and Naruto and later blitzed Nagato who easily overwhelmed both bee and Naruto as well it frankly just comes full circle

9 Arts dragon wrote:
Either way he blitzed Nagato who reacted and countered them the same and there was nothing suggesting he even did since Itachi attacked him first and knew he'd need to seal him to be done with him

Crow clones take little to no chakra. He can simply use those to force Gai into his techs and Genjutsu. Itachi knows all about Gai's skills going as far as to warn Akatsuki not to underestimate him, so why would Itachi underestimate him or try and out-speed or overpower him??? He wouldn't Itachi wins with strategy and intelligence.

Itachi knows all about Gai and his feats etc. It comes down to how the fight plays out. If it goes on too long Gai loses, if Gai hits 7 gates and manages to get Hirudora past Itachi's Susanoo he wins. Over-all Susanoo is the big defense for him. Itachi has Sword of Totsuka, Yata Mirror, Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu etc.. even his normal Genjutsu are masterful. gai's chances are 7 gates+ with Hirudora or Night Gai. Itachi always uses his exploding bunshins and crow clones along with Genjutsu.. and if Sasuke couldn't avoid the Genjutsu even if he tried then Gai can't if he doesn't focus on avoiding it the entire time.

9 Arts dragon wrote:
Either way he blitzed Nagato who reacted and countered them the same and there was nothing suggesting he even did since Itachi attacked him first and knew he'd need to seal him to be done with him

And if you say so in Madaras regards

Since when did blitzing a cripple become an awe-inspiring feat?

Since Nagato even immobile had an Arsenal allowing him to counter others with slight movements like he did to bee also Naruto wasn't a retard everyone knew Edo tensei needed sealing no matter what he already dealt with it so the "casual" excuse which isn't even slightly acceptable isn't valid

@QuakingStar

Itachis arsenal literally shits on Gais which is solely based on taijustu it seems a lot can't accept that

Shadow clones halve your chakra, crow clones were described to be less than that. <50% can be anywhere from 49% and below, but since it was stated to be less than 50%, saying it costs little to no chakra is not correct. Itachi definitely knows a bit about Guy and his abilities, but I think he knows the full extent of Guy's powers. 7th gate will be more than enough to deal with Itachi.

Also, when Sasuke and Itachi were using genjutsu on each other, neither of them were moving, Sasuke didn't even try to dodge, so I don't know why you are using that as a feat.

Draw or Itachi win?
Guy takes out Itachi but then dies from opening the eigth gate. Without the eight gates Guy is below Kakashi level and easy pickings for Itachi.
There is no positive outcome for Guy, he is in a die, die situation.

@Ninja of War Go read the page on it. The Databook pages said it takes little to no chakra. which is why he uses it so much. BTW what are you even talking about?? Nobody was talking about their initial Genjutsu battle.

Honestly Gai wins this. Gai wont fall for Tsukuyomi nor any Genjutsus due to his training against battling Sharingan; in Taijutsu, Gai would eventually overpower Itachi- he has way more Stamina than Itachi and thus more Chakra. Both their Summoning Jutsus bring forth worthless animals (turtles and crows) so we wont count those, ...once Itachi pulls out the MS Sharingan,Gai will enter 8 Gates Mode, which he does at once to the 6th Gate. Gai would use the Asakujaku, Itachi uses Susannoo which defends against it.

Against Amaterasu, I say Gai would be able to dodge it if he uses the Teleportation Jutsu in Gates Mode (similar to how the Raikage used it). Against Susanoo, Gai would have to up his power to the 7th Gate and use Hirudora, which we all have seen that a Weakened one was able to shatter Madara's Susanoo. Itachi's Yata Mirror guards Ninjustu but al Gai's hits are Tai (which is what did in Kisame), so it will shatter that Defense...I have not even gotten to the Last Gate.

Anyways, Itachi might be able to survive if he uses Izanagi on himself and takes Gai by surprise...which then n there (since Gai would be weakened by the Gates), he would die.

That's not entirely accurate. A more accurate statement would be "Guy is highly unlikely to fall for Tsukuyomi and other Sharingan-based genjutsu due to his training against battling Sharingan." Itachi could eventually trick or force Guy into looking into his MS. Itachi is capable of that, but overall I'm in Guy's favour.

Guy's only problem is Susanoo. He's very fast with his Gates technique, so he can most likely dodge Amaterasu. The problem is the Yata Mirror, which inevitably becomes a highly contentious issue in every VS thread Itachi is involved. Had the Yata Mirror not been there, Guy could simply use Hirudora to thrash Itachi and his Susanoo. The strain from Hirudora, combined with the incredibly painful strain produced by the Susanoo, would quickly exhaust Itachi.

But Guy has a huge problem because Itachi has the Yata Mirror, and its powers are so poorly and ambiguously defined that we can't say with any certainty how it would react against Hirudora. I personally think Itachi's Susanoo would be pushed back and thrown out of balance considerably even after the Yata Mirror shields Itachi from the most destructive forces of the Hirudora. But a lot of people would disagree with me and would claim that the Yata Mirror can easily block the entire force of the Hirudora. And since the Yata Mirror is so poorly defined and has practically zero memorable feats, there is no way any of us can reach a definite conclusion.

BakumatsuWarrior wrote:
Had the Yata Mirror not been there, Guy could simply use Hirudora to thrash Itachi and his Susanoo. The strain from Hirudora, combined with the incredibly painful strain produced by the Susanoo, would quickly exhaust Itachi.

Considering that Susanoo can not block sound, there's a good chance that Hirudora, being a pure displacement of air, will plain defeat Itachi. And since Yata was not used to block that sound ability, well i think it's safe to say it can't do that.

Normally i'd say itachi wins, but Guy's experience with fighting Sharingan users and Genjutsu (he was Kakashi's rival after all) is enough to swing this in his favor.

Hirudora is air yes, but air is NOT sound. Wind release is also air. Hirudora cannot get past Yata Mirror or Susanoo. Itachi can cast a Genjutsu from outside even a Sensors range. So since he knows Gai, he will do that.

@QuakingStar I'm not saying Itachi won't survive it, but the fact is Guy can handle being in gates for longer than Itachi can sustain Susanoo and that will be Itachi's end. But don't get more wrong, Itachi still has a chance to win, but in my opinion, Guy (60%) and Itachi (40%).

Itachi was already on his knees and about blind when Kirin was activated. The fact he was able to shield himself at all is incredible, Susanoo or not. Hirudora didn't even kill Kisame it only knocked him down and he was about to attack Gai again until Gai punched him in the chest. This fight could go anyways

Nobody's claiming Gai can resist Tsukuyomi. What people are claiming is that since Gai trained to fight by avoiding direct contact with the enemy's sharingan, Gai is thus highly unlikely to be caught in Tsukuyomi because Tsukuyomi requires eye contact. Avoid eye contact and you'll be fine. Of course, Itachi is smart enough to trick Guy into making eye contact, and nobody's denying that.

Nobody's claiming Gai can resist Tsukuyomi. What people are claiming is that since Gai trained to fight by avoiding direct contact with the enemy's sharingan, Gai is thus highly unlikely to be caught in Tsukuyomi because Tsukuyomi requires eye contact. Avoid eye contact and you'll be fine. Of course, Itachi is smart enough to trick Guy into making eye contact, and nobody's denying that.

Itachi doesn't need eye contact for Genjutsus
And Gai was looking at Madara head on throughout their fight madar should've been easily able to trap him in a genjutsu but plot saves him like many during the war arc

9 Arts dragon wrote:
Itachi doesn't need eye contact for Genjutsus
And Gai was looking at Madara head on throughout their fight madar should've been easily able to trap him in a genjutsu but plot saves him like many during the war arc

Itachi needs eye contact for Tsukuyomi. Of course, he has his finger genjutsu, which I think is called Ethereal. But since it's a weak genjutsu, we don't know if it is enough to stop Guy. However, Itachi could use such small genjutsus to trick Guy into looking at Itachi's eyes. Once that happens, it's over for Guy.

9 Arts dragon wrote:
Itachi doesn't need eye contact for Genjutsus
And Gai was looking at Madara head on throughout their fight madar should've been easily able to trap him in a genjutsu but plot saves him like many during the war arc

Itachi needs eye contact for Tsukuyomi. Of course, he has his finger genjutsu, which I think is called Ethereal. But since it's a weak genjutsu, we don't know if it is enough to stop Guy. However, Itachi could use such small genjutsus to trick Guy into looking at Itachi's eyes. Once that happens, it's over for Guy.

I'm aware of all of that.Still Gai hasn't shown resistance to any Genjutsu iirc Naruto has with jirayas training but even that wasn't enough against a master at it like Itachi so any claims that he resists is pretty groundless given his lack of feats

Guy is resistant to A-Rank Genjutsu in the matter that he CAN break it. But Itachi only needs the instant that he gets caught to set up the rest. Gai is in over his head against Itachi and that is why he called in reinforcements that time in P1.

WHERE is this tech called weak or low level?? and where is it below an A Rank Genjutsu?? It seems that yet AGAIN people have been using speculation in arguments. It took Sakura helping to get Naruto out of it regardless. I see this Genjutsu as the start of his setup to end Gai.

Jiraiya mentioned he was not good in genjutsu, Naruto like his teacher wasn't either as mentioned about hus poor chakra control. Jiraiya knew the basics behind breaking it is all. Breaking it seems to vary on the amount of chakra exuded into the opponent, while the most clever genjutsu makes it so the user can't figure out is isn't a genjutsu. Naruto couldn't even tell he was in a genjutsu when Kakashi made Sasuke appear before him and Sakura, despite him still being in a 13 year old body, talk about obvious. Naruto's skill in genjutsu is mediocore. Guy was able to deduce that technique used on the people in Chunin Exams was genjutsu and broke a high ranking jutsu. Like I said, Itachi will need to use a Sharingan based genjutsu which won't be easy when it's Guy.

Also Ephemeral is > Temple of nirvana for having not only temple of nirvanas effects but others as well there both Ying release the effects are what differs them

He learned the basics from jiraya and has resistance to a limited degree he cant use any last i checked tho.And that changes nothing a sanin would not be trapped by a genjutsu random jonin were able to counter he maybe lacking in that department but he aint fodder

That's your opinion. But we know that Temple of Nirvana is a high ranking genjutsu and besides using that Ephemeral on Naruto who sucks at genjutsu anyways, it has no feats. If it was such a strong genjutsu, he would use it more often, just saying.

Not its not just my opinion but its factual?
The effects are greater therefore its a better genjutsu.
Also ephemeral is used by the probably best genjutsu user in the verse excluding shisui so that in of itself speaks for itself.

How are the effects greater. If you means it makes illusions that is psychological torture to the opponent, yes, but it is also quick to figure out it is a genjutsu. And it doesn't help the only person it was used on sucked in genjutsu. Not impressive. Putting people to sleep is a great effect however, and how it is used could easily be missed as a ordinary ninjutsu.

Whatever 9 Arts. Ephemeral has proved nothing. If it's effects is so great apparently, why was it hardly used and was only ever used on a person who sucked at genjutsu. While the Temple of Nirvana was a high ranking genjutsu and Guy with rather average genjutsu skill was able to deduce and break free from it. You believe what you want. You are just fixated on Itachi is great a genjutsu and every genjutsu he uses is strong. I mean is the Substitution not an E-rank jutsu, but people still use it. Sigh, what to do...?

MS Sasuke wasn't able visually to keep up with Raikage, Raikage recognize that he is slower than FTG Minato, Madara is about fast as FTG Minato, Madara wasn't able to keep up with Evening Elephant Guy and Night Guy is much faster than Evening Elephant. And you think that Itachi can catch Guy into genjutsu, absurdly.

Ok that's just exaggerating Madara was countering Gai even in 8th gate the only reason Gai even got shots on him was team effort by minato and Kakashi excluding night Gai.And Itachi is not Sasuke he has better techniques overall not counting six paths stuff.And he kept up with Naruto chakra mode so yeah his speed is better than anything not 8th gate but even then he won't dissapear from his visual range given that minato and kakashi could perceive him still.I do think Gai would win in this case but 6th and 7th gate are not beating Itachi however.

In my opinion, Temple of Nirvana technique is better than ephermeral. Simply because it could affect many shinobi and put them to sleep. Ephemeral only seems to work on one person. People go on and on about Itachi just needing to use his finger to cast genjutsu, yet, like Rachin has mentioned, he only ever used it once on someone who sucks at genjutsu.

Pretty featless I'd say. If this genjutsu is so convenient, why didn't Itachi use it against Deidara and sage Kabuto?

P.S. @ 9 Arts, Kotoamatsukami is an MS techinque that takes ten years to recharge, its kinda obvious why it was hardly used, despite the fact that it's user is dead.

^Well Temple of Nirvana(ToN), doesn't need eye contact to be cast so it does have an advantage over conventional sharingan genjutsu, in terms of range and affected targets ToN is better, but in terms of power MS techniques are better.

Location?? You mean to tell me that when Itachi found Kabuto chilling there, since he was in a cave, Itachi was unable to point his finger at Kabuto? That doesn't make sense. With Deidara, instead of using his sharingan Itachi could of just pointed at him to catch him in genjutsu.

Range doesn't make it better as I said the effects are what's paramount here in which case temple of nirvana is bellow ephemeral that simple.

Itachi had to resort using Izanami on kabuto for the sole reason of releasing Edo tensei given the caliber of the technique I'd say it's very likely ephemeral or most Genjutsu wouldn't work against sage mode kabuto by Itachis actions. Besides he used Tsukuyomi once in the entire series last I checked wouldn't eye contact be more efficient than pointing at him? And tsukuyomi is still top tier Genjutsu at that.That proves nothing

Madara had time to protect himself because Guy wasn't accustomed to his power. Guy showed that he is much faster than Madara even with Evening Elephant (at first, Madara wasn't able to move his Shakujo fast enough to protect himself). And Madara won't waste his time to fight against someone who isn't fast enough to hit him.

"Accustomed to his power " ?..
No if anything the strain of the 8th gate kept getting worse throughout the fight he never needed to get used to the gates he opened and he wasn't faster than Madara.He merely overwhelmed him with sheer power as for night guy well he bended space within his vincinity so I doubt Madara could even dodge that if he wanted to.

9 Arts dragon wrote:
"Accustomed to his power " ?..
No if anything the strain of the 8th gate kept getting worse throughout the fight he never needed to get used to the gates he opened and he wasn't faster than Madara.He merely overwhelmed him with sheer power as for night guy well he bended space within his vincinity so I doubt Madara could even dodge that if he wanted to.

I meant, he wasn't able to fight nonstop because of pain. Watch Guy vs Madara again, Madara wasn't fast enough to protect himself with Shakujo against Evening Elephant (https://youtu.be/f_Tf2pGJdko?t=708). Madara barely visually keep up with Evening Elephant Guy.

Yeah the strain on him was too great but still Madara was definitely countering him he even formed a barrier while Gai was in mid attack.Gai overwhelmed Madara due to continuous attacks as far as I'm concerned otherwise he'd get countered just like he was in the beginning

Guess what @9 Arts. We have zero feats for Ephemeral, as opposed to Temple of Nirvana. You are just in denial because you want Itachi to win so badly. I mean you are trying to compare Jubi Madara to Itachi by saying Madara was able to counter Guy at some points, how those that have to do with Itachi? Itachi isn't on his speed calibre nor power calibre.

You are only saying its effects are so much better because its has more quantity as opposed to simply putting a person to sleep but that's what makes the quality of the technique that much better. The fact is the Ephemeral can clearly be discovered as genjutsu, more so than Temple of Nirvana. The Temple of Nirvana can effect way more people, and is straight forward, you get put to sleep. Deny it all you want, Guy is more likely to see through Ephemeral and break it in the nick of time. If it was so great like you are saying, he'd use it more often then Genjutsu: Sharingan. Itachi will in fact need Susanoo if Guy is in 6 gates or above, and not admitting that is pure denial.

Yes ephemeral is better because it has more layers of effects than temple of nirvana. Temple of nirvana didn't work on jonin while the same jonin including Gai himself called for back up and acknowledged Itachis skills in Genjutsu.

Your explanation for proving that ephemeral is bellow temple of nirvana is pure nonsense

Gai is not breaking out any Genjutsu done by a master of Genjutsu like Itachi and using your eye is more efficient than pointing at someone.Itachi used tsukuyomi once last I checked and it's still above most Genjutsu so that is not proper evidence.

Itachi is faster than Gai in 6th or 7th via keeping up with chakra mode Naruto who is easily faster.

SIGH Itachi never kept up with NTCM Naruto Itachi went at him and Naruto slightly jumped and blocked. Itachi is not as fast as NTCM Naruto end of story, he's not even as fast as EMS Sasuke much less NTCM Naruto. so no Itachi is not faster than Guy.

First off, Guy called for backup because Itachi and Kisame was there. It had nothing to do solely because of Itachi and his skill in genjutsu. And just because someone acknowledges someone's abilities doesn't mean they lose outright. Naruto was not fighting all out on Itachi and that little squabble was hardly a fight, Itachi was the one to attack while Naruto blocked and the conversed. And are you insinuating that Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto is faster than 6 or 7 gate Guy? Give proof. Also, many shinobi know not to look at the eyes of the Uchiha, so pointing will catch them off guard so that technique is actually more efficient. But you can believe that Guy won't break out of any genjutsu techniques of Itachi all you want, I backed up reasons why he could at least break out of Ephemeral, so you can disagree all you want. Apparently all genjutsu Itachi uses is high level. Even Ephemeral which has no feats other than what genjutsu is itself. Uses it once on someone who sucks a genjutsu. But nope it doesn't matter because it has different things going on in the jutsu so it's better. And saying just because Itachi uses it isn't proof enough.

Uchiahmasters wrote:
SIGH Itachi never kept up with NTCM Naruto Itachi went at him and Naruto slightly jumped and blocked. Itachi is not as fast as NTCM Naruto end of story, he's not even as fast as EMS Sasuke much less NTCM Naruto. so no Itachi is not faster than Guy.

As you can you see though, Itachi was the main one attacking while Naruto was blocking because he wasn't going all out. Itachi had no choice to attack, Naruto didn't want to fight and was trying to talk with Itachi about Sasuke. The Fourth Raikage held the title as the fastest currently alive until Naruto, and now you are saying Itachi is apparently faster, get your life.

9 Arts dragon wrote:
Range doesn't make it better as I said the effects are what's paramount here in which case temple of nirvana is bellow ephemeral that simple.

Itachi had to resort using Izanami on kabuto for the sole reason of releasing Edo tensei given the caliber of the technique I'd say it's very likely ephemeral or most Genjutsu wouldn't work against sage mode kabuto by Itachis actions. Besides he used Tsukuyomi once in the entire series last I checked wouldn't eye contact be more efficient than pointing at him? And tsukuyomi is still top tier Genjutsu at that.That proves nothing

Itachi had to resort to Izanami since Kabuto disabled his eyesight and made most of Itachi's genjutsu useless in the process. Also, Itachi wanted to save Kabuto from himself. After, when Kabuto was caught in Izanami, Itachi still had to use Tsukuyomi to force him to release the edo tensei. So in total Itachi used Tsukuyomi four times, not just once. Since Ephemeral doesn't require eye contact, Itachi could have used it at the beginning of the fight, but didn't. That proves a lot.

Itachi is not faster than 6th gate Guy. You are taking Naruto blocking Itachi's attacks way out of context. Naruto wanted to talk to Itachi at that point, not fight him.

P.S. If you want to talk about proof and denial, make sure you actually check up on the things you are stating.

If he acknowledged his powers that speaks for itself doesn't it?
And putting someone to sleep is not even impressive as a Genjutsu as opposed to mentally torturing someone.

No evidence in those regards Itachi was able to block a few of his attacks and outpace Bee at the same time.

Last I checked Gai used Itachis reflection on the water to be able to manage he doesn't have such a luxury elsewhere

I never implied that every Genjutsu Itachi used was high tier but being the best there is excluding shisui his Genjutsu should eclipse kabutos by common sense especially one that could be countered by random jonin.Im done arguing for ephemeral however Itachi would find a way to trap him in a Genjutsu eventually given his better combat smarts

Itachi > 6/7 gates until I see some evidence proving he doesnt outmatch Gai in both powers and versatility

@Ninja Of War

-Proof he used tsukuyomi on kabuto? I read the manga and there's definitely none.

-Proves nothing Itachi it was either not strong enough for someone like sage mode kabuto or it was forgotten just like Madara couldn't trap Naruto,Gai etc in a Genjutsu from point blank range instead of spamming limbo

-Naruto came at Itachi and was countered so no

I never implied anyone was in denial? And I do for the most part at least so meh

Um Itachi also acknowledged Guy's abilities too so. Also, Guy didn't need to look at the reflection in the water to battle Itachi, he said to look below his face. The face that you believe Naruto was going all out proves how unbelievable you are. Also, no one is saying that Itachi's genjutsu skills aren't superior to Kabuto's but you are not hearing us put when we say that Kabuto has high genjutsu skills and used a high ranking genjutsu and even Guy could counter it. So what if random fodder countered it too, they were jonin level so it's not surprising but you want to sit here and defend Ephemeral which was used on a chunin at best and who's genjutsu skills sucked. We've given you evidence, you are just in so much denial it's ridiculous. I'm just gonna reframe from conversing with you because it's way of getting through to you.

You say you read the manga, but what about this part: Chapter 588, there is the proof you asked for.
So you admit that Ephemeral is not that strong?
Naruto wanted to talk to Itachi, they both had a bit of a scuffle since Itachi was being forced to fight. That is not proof that Itachi is as fast as Naruto in Nine tails Chakra Mode.

Did he ever say tsukuyomi in chapter 588? I didn't read anywhere and my proof was Naruto attacking him in that brief scuffle and Itachi countering him in that mode. But again this is getting too redundant so believe what you will

@9 Arts That's not the beginning part of the fight. Itachi attacked first. The battle wasn't long and Naruto wasn't going full out. So I guess you can say he kept up with a normal speed NTCM Naruto, whatever that is, but it's not a credible feat to me given the circumstances.

Hmm, tough call. Does Guy have eight gates? If not, then Itachi. Itachi is certainly more skilled but if Guy brings out eight gates Itachi isn't lasting very long at all. Guy certainly outlasts him, I'm torn between the two.

Guy needs at least the 6th gate to one shot Itachi. You do not open the gates in an instant as seen in the Lee v Gaara fight and Team Guy against Kisame's "clone", it takes time. Given the Sharingan's ability to anticipate and predict, he would recognize to some degree when Guy would be attempting to go for it.

Guy has developed a strategy to fight the sharingan yes. I will not go into what ifs Itachi can find a way to force eye contact etc. While I am certain that he could find a way to force eye contact and place a genjutsu, that is the least of Gai's concerns. Would also like to add, just because you know how to break a genjutsu does not mean you can break any. Also while dealing with one you are pretty much vulnerable unless you're fast enough to deal with it before caster attacks as seen with Kurenai and Orochimaru.

Avoiding eye contact and focusing on his feet would give him a tough time to follow Itachi's movement especially considering that even proficient Sharingan wielders have trouble following them all. More importantly it would also leave him exposed to many dojutsus but the most notable ones are Yasaka Magatama, Amaterasu and Totsuka tsurugi (while Susano'o awakening has been somewhat inconsistent we have seen full Susano'o brought out in an instant / mere seconds several times. You also don't need a complete one for this jutsu)
Without looking in his eyes, he would have no idea know if they were coming or not. Factor in Itachi's genjutsu range, Guy can ill afford to get complacent regardless of distance.

Itachi likes to use bukijutsu and his crows summons as diversions and set-up chain attacks. His skills with projectiles, means they could pretty much come from out of nowhere (i.e when he grasped the rinnegan's shared vision idea and blinded Nagato's "summons" with just kunais).
Guy with limited field of view would have trouble keeping up with these distractions while also tracking Itachi especially bunshins. Bunshin feints combined with his fast handseals execution and jutsu speed, he could also switch with one and keep observing from a distance or just complement his attack as seen with Kakashi in part 1 or Sasuke in their final confrontation.

Without the fight beginning with Guy already in eight gates mode, I don't see him winning.

Are we forgetting Totsuka Blade and Yata Mirror? Itachi wins this.What about Amaterasu? Tsukuyomi? These are all facts.Also against Nagato's Chibaku Tensei/Planatary Devastion,he did activate his Susano'o and said to both killer bee and Naruto,"Each of you,throw your strongest Jutsu." He throwed Yasaka beads which means it's his strongest Jutsu.Thats another way to defeat Guy.As I have stated,these are all facts.