I have a Sony XBR4 and need some help with something. I have a reciever that deinterlaces all 1080i/60 film based to 1080p/60. My question is how does the Sony handle film base 1080p/60 signal does it do a pulldown for this source?

on a film-based 1080i/60 signal My reciever deinterlaces and outputs a 1080p/60 signal. I'm sending the 1080p/60 to mt Sony xbr4 120Hz. My question is how does the TV handle this signal? thanks in advance for any input.

"If the source does not contain 3/2 pulldown, such as a 1080p/60 video-originated source or a 1080p/24 film-based source from a Blu-ray or HD DVD player, Motionflow adds either one interpolated frame (1080p/60) or four interpolated frames (1080p/24) to each source frame to reach the 120Hz refresh rate required by the set's 120Hz operation. If you turn the Motion Enhancer off, each source frame is simply repeated as many times as needed to get to 120Hz, with no interpolation.

If the source contains 3/2 pulldown, such as 1080p/60 video from a film-based source, the 3/2 pulldown is not removed. Motionflow converts the 1080p/60 source directly to 1080p/120 by adding one interpolated frame to each source frame. If you turn the Motion Enhancer off, each source frame of a 1080p/60 signal is merely repeated once to reach a 120Hz refresh rate, but there is no frame interpolation."

You can add the new 120Hz Toshiba LCDs that come out next month. Their literature calls out suppot for 1080p/24 using true 5:5 mutiples. All this and 14-bit processing on a 10-bit panel. I'll probably buy the 52 incher. Can't wait to see it!

You are correct the new Toshiba's coming out has 5:5 pulldown according to Toshiba's website. It will be added to the list within an hour or so. Thanks for the information.

I was not reading reviews at PC magazine. I get computer shopper magazine but I never thought PC magazine would have coverage in there reviews in regards to this feature. I am checking with my sources to confirm if Sony does indeed offer 48HZ refresh rate for LCD displays. One more Sony or several might be added in a few hours to the list.

The Epson Powerlite Pro Cinema 1080UB has been removed from the list since it is 60HZ when 1080P/24 is applied

The Epson Powerlite Pro Cinema was originally added to the list since the November 2007 Widescreen review magazine on pages 14-21 mentioned that this new projector refreshed 1080P/24 material at 48HZ.The reality is according to two different reliable sources this projector displays 1080P/24 material at 60HZ. I wish I would have caught this earlier, I strongly recommend one does their own research since the list is not 100% accurate.

QuoteThe Epson will accept 1080p/24 sources, but according to Epson only displays at 1080p/60. Displays that can output 1080p/24 signals at 48Hz, 72Hz or 96Hz can provide a subtly smoother image by eliminating the "judder" associated with the 3/2 pulldown required to output film's 24p native images at 60Hz.http://ultimateavmag.com/videoprojectors/607epsonprocin/

QuoteDifferences between Pro 1080 and Home 1080This review focuses on the Pro Cinema 1080 UB and includes notes on the Home Cinema 1080 UB. For all practical purposes, these are the same physical projector internally. But they are packaged, priced, and distributed differently. We have used a sample of the Pro version for this review. The actual differences between the Pro Cinema 1080 UB and the Home Cinema 1080 UB are as follows: The Pro version is black, and the Home version is white. The Pro is priced at $3,999.99 The Home is $2,999.99 The Pro comes with a ceiling mount and spare lamp, whereas the Home does not. The Pro has a 3-year warranty, and the Home is 2 years. The Pro model features an Imaging Science Foundation (ISF) certification. The Pro model is sold by resellers who are trained to install,calibrate, and support the unit. The Home model is sold by resellers who typically do not offer this level of support.http://www.projectorcentral.com/epson_cinema_1080_ub_review.htm

Toshiba will soon be releasing some new 1080P screens that offer true 5:5 pulldown according to their press release. 5:5 pulldown is a marketing term that means 1080P/24 is displayed on the screen at multiplies of the original frame until 120fps (HZ) is reached.

When I connect my Samsung 5084 1080p Plasma to my PC via DVI to HDMI cable, I have option monitor settings to set refresh rate to:

23hz24hz
29hz, Interlaced
30hz, Interlaced
59hz
60hz

And you definetly feel/see the 24hz "flicker" when set to that.

That's 48Hz at best case - I'm not aware of any LCD panel out there with 24Hz refresh rate.
OTOH I do see the flickering when I switch to 48Hz from 96Hz on my plasma too.

At some point in the future - when I'm done with my evening Spanish classes - I'll put together a proper list, with links to confirmations because this topic seems to be stucked in this 'random updates' mode including not only updates but sudden removals as well... but Pana Pro PF10-series is still MIA...

It appears that Sony is just like Pioneer and all of their displays every made that have a 1080P/24 input will refresh the image on the screen at multiplies of the original frame.Hopefully my sources are correct.According to one of my sources and a review link from PC magazine there are 5 Sony 1080P 60HZ LCD's that will refresh 1080P/24 material at 48HZ on the screen. Watching 48HZ on a LCD will reduce or eliminate 3:2 pulldown judder but it also will produce some smearing and flickering. It would be better to purchase a 120HZ LCD from Sony since the picture quality is much better compared to the normal Sony LCD screens. Higher refresh rates in general have a better picture quality especially for a LCD screen. 48HZ looks good on a Front projector but not recommended for LCD refresh rates since LCD main weakness is motion blur especially at lower refresh rates. The elements in a LCD screen are slower to respond on the screen compared to other technologies like CRT, Plasma, and SXRD (LCOS) displays.

NegativesSadly, despite an otherwise strong showing, when displaying scenes depicting lots of motion, the KDL-46V3000 was among the most smear-prone sets I've seen. Viewing angles, however, did affect the perception of color quality. Loss of saturation was obvious in skin tones starting at 20 degrees off-axis from the center of the screen.

Wow - I subscribe to @20 threads and this is the first time i'm posting the same query three times:
HDTV1080P - in a different forum it was suggested you review the Mitsubishi Diamond series but you said you couldn't since you said the sets weren't available in the US yet - well they've been here for a while and I have the 73833 yet you have not posted any review regarding it's ability to do 24fps.

"..where you will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy."

Wow - I subscribe to @20 threads and this is the first time i'm posting the same query three times:
HDTV1080P - in a different forum it was suggested you review the Mitsubishi Diamond series but you said you couldn't since you said the sets weren't available in the US yet - well they've been here for a while and I have the 73833 yet you have not posted any review regarding it's ability to do 24fps.

I wish I had the time to review displays, All the reviews I post come from professional magazines like Perfect Vision, Widescreen Review, Home Theater magazine, Sound and Vision, and several other publications. Of all the reviews that I have read Mitsubishi for both their LCD and DLP displays has been using a 3:2 pulldown process for their 60HZ and 120HZ displays.

Quote on Mitsubishi WD-65831“Not many sets can do 1080p/24. But although it will accept this resolution and frame rate, as far as I could determine the Mitsubishi cannot operate at multiples of 24Hz (the native rate of film) like 48 and 72Hz, which would effectively eliminate judder induced by 3/2 pulldown.”http://ultimateavmag.com/rearproject...07mitswd65831/

Mitsubishi 144 and 244 series 120HZ LCD’s are using 3:2 pulldown process quote

“A major feature here, and one that's starting to show up on more and more sets, particularly flat panel LCDs, is 120Hz operation. Mitsubishi calls this "Smooth120Hz," and it's available only on the company's 144- and 244-series sets. It doubles video's standard 60Hz frame rate to 120Hz, which is claimed to produce less motion blur (a particular weakness of LCD flat panel displays). The added frame is not simply repeated, but interpolated using a Mitsubishi-developed algorithm.
The set will also accept and display a 1080p/24 source, such ad Blu-ray or HD DVD. However, rather than the optimum technique of upconverting 1080p/24 to 1080p/120 directly, to match the native 120Hz frame rate of the set, 1080p/24 inputs are first converted to 1080p/60 by adding 3/2 pulldown. The set then handles the signal as it would any 1080p/60 input by frame-doubling it to1080p/120.”http://ultimateavmag.com/flatpaneldi...1107mits46144/Of course your main question was about the new WD-7833 Mitsubishi displays. To my knowledge the WD-7833 DLP’s use the exact same technique as the new 144 and 244 series LCD when it comes to 1080P/24 (As long as my sources are correct). The professional reviews on the 7833 models do not mention how they process 1080P/24. I hope to see some more reviews in regards to the 7833 series to verify that they do handle 1080P/24 just like the 144 and 244 series.

It appears that Sony is just like Pioneer and all of their displays every made that have a 1080P/24 input will refresh the image on the screen at multiplies of the original frame.Hopefully my sources are correct.According to one of my sources and a review link from PC magazine there are 5 Sony 1080P 60HZ LCD's that will refresh 1080P/24 material at 48HZ on the screen. Watching 48HZ on a LCD will reduce or eliminate 3:2 pulldown judder but it also will produce some smearing and flickering. It would be better to purchase a 120HZ LCD from Sony since the picture quality is much better compared to the normal Sony LCD screens. Higher refresh rates in general have a better picture quality especially for a LCD screen. 48HZ looks good on a Front projector but not recommended for LCD refresh rates since LCD main weakness is motion blur especially at lower refresh rates. The elements in a LCD screen are slower to respond on the screen compared to other technologies like CRT, Plasma, and SXRD (LCOS) displays.

NegativesSadly, despite an otherwise strong showing, when displaying scenes depicting lots of motion, the KDL-46V3000 was among the most smear-prone sets I've seen. Viewing angles, however, did affect the perception of color quality. Loss of saturation was obvious in skin tones starting at 20 degrees off-axis from the center of the screen.

I'm the guy who identified the pcmag article on engadgetHD, and I'd like to add the same thing I did on engadget's thread:

I'm wondering where pcmag got the "flicker" from... LCD, being a "sample-and-hold" technology, has no refresh-dependant flicker. Some lcd motion blur is actually attributed to this, since the eye tracks movement smoothly and is expecting an object to be in a certain position, the motion blur (not signal/source based) is a trick of the eye. If you flicker the backlight at 60hz, you can actually eliminate the appearence of motion blur.

But lcds backlights dont flicker. So I wonder where they're getting that from. The only "flickering" with an LCD display is with an interlaced source thats being incorrectly deinterlaced.

With this in mind, it wouldn't matter whether the refresh rate is 48, 72, or 120 flicker-wise, they'd all appear the same. Where 120-hz benefits an LCD seems to be in its response-time blur, and MOTION RESOLUTION (as discussed in hdguru's article http://hdguru.com/?p=187 )

In order to make the list more useful I have made some changes. While reading the list one can now click on the link for a particular display. When the link is clicked on one will be able to view most of the time the documented evidence on why the display is located on the list. Clicking on a link will most of the time take one to the manufactories official spec sheet or directly to the page where the professional review is located that mentions the true 1080P/24 native refresh rate feature. Some of the links to read the professional review you need a paid subscription to read the full review. When there is two different reviews that are from two different publications I have placed the link to the free online review if it mentions the 1080P/24 feature. Most of the time each link will be different for each model number. Currently clicking on any Sony 120HZ refresh rate LCD model will bring up the review for the XBR4. The reason for this is this review is currently the only one that mentions in details how the Sony XBR4 and other 120HZ LCD's work with 1080P/24. According to Sony's website and other sources it's been verified that all the 120HZ LCD Sony's use the exact same method as the XBR4 models when it comes to displaying 1080P/24. When and if more models of 120HZ Sony's are reviewed I will update the link with the exact model numbers as long as the reviews mentions the 1080P/24 feature.

I just wanted to say now important 120 hz is for me. I can't imagine playing 360 wthout it. I switch back and forth and I see no artifacts. All I see is smooth panning and fluid lifelike images. Go motionflow!

I'm the guy who identified the pcmag article on engadgetHD, and I'd like to add the same thing I did on engadget's thread:

I'm wondering where pcmag got the "flicker" from... LCD, being a "sample-and-hold" technology, has no refresh-dependant flicker. Some lcd motion blur is actually attributed to this, since the eye tracks movement smoothly and is expecting an object to be in a certain position, the motion blur (not signal/source based) is a trick of the eye. If you flicker the backlight at 60hz, you can actually eliminate the appearence of motion blur.

But lcds backlights dont flicker. So I wonder where they're getting that from. The only "flickering" with an LCD display is with an interlaced source thats being incorrectly deinterlaced.

With this in mind, it wouldn't matter whether the refresh rate is 48, 72, or 120 flicker-wise, they'd all appear the same. Where 120-hz benefits an LCD seems to be in its response-time blur, and MOTION RESOLUTION (as discussed in hdguru's article http://hdguru.com/?p=187 )

48hz should be perfectly fine for movies.

Thanks for the information on the Sony review. I would need to see this display connected to a BLU-RAY player running 1080P/24 to see if I see any flicker. There have sometimes been slight incompatibilities between the BLU-RAY players 1080P/24 output and a display detecting 1080P/24. Once and a while I have heard of people that they need to place their BLU-RAY player at 1080P/60 since they see a flicker once and a while watching the movie. Perhaps the BLU-RAY player connected to the Sony that was being reviewed needed a software update. If some of the frames were missing or delayed perhaps this might cause a flicker.
Your right about 48HZ being fine for movies. Many film projectors use 48HZ and 72HZ refresh to get rid of the flicker that native 24fps has. There is no film projector or display that shows 24fps at 24HZ since there would be a terrible flicker on the screen. That is why at least 48fps needs to be used in order to eliminate the flicker. Some times people that review equipment have there own glossary terms and maybe flicker to them may mean something different. I know I catch myself using technical terms in different and unique ways sometimes.

I am very interested in the new Toshiba 46XV540 and I have noticed that they claim a "ColorBurst wide color gamut CCFL at 108% of the NTSC color gamut." I consider myself to be a pretty informed home theater guy, but what does this mean? What do current HDTV's have like the XBR4? 71 Series? Is this an improvement over what HDTV's have or is it like the contrast ratio where it's more of a "marketing spec"? I can see how having accurate color reproduction is beneficial but how do you have 108% color?? A little insight in this department would be appreciated thanks!

Quote“Although not mentioned in the specifications, the projector alsoaccepted 1080p24, 1080p24sf, and 1080p48 signals over HDMI. Butnone of those signals were displayed at the input frame rate, or anexact multiple of the frame rate, and consequently they producedsignificant judder and periodic dark flashes. This is a serious limitationthat prevents the projector from displaying judder-free moviesfrom upconverters and future Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD players thatprovide 1080p24 signals.”

Even though this projector does not handle 1080P/24 material at multiplies of the original frame it does have a 1080P/48 input so if one purchases a expensive external video processor one can watch BLU-RAY and other film based material at 48HZ.

I am very interested in the new Toshiba 46XV540 and I have noticed that they claim a "ColorBurst wide color gamut CCFL at 108% of the NTSC color gamut." I consider myself to be a pretty informed home theater guy, but what does this mean? What do current HDTV's have like the XBR4? 71 Series? Is this an improvement over what HDTV's have or is it like the contrast ratio where it's more of a "marketing spec"? I can see how having accurate color reproduction is beneficial but how do you have 108% color?? A little insight in this department would be appreciated thanks!

The short answer is this TV has both deep color and XVYCC. Deep color increases the number of bits that can be received from a deep color compatible device. XVYCC increases the color gamut and offers more colors compared to the existing standard. The main thing here is deep color and xvYCC is useless until source material is made available in that format from broadcasts or optical disc. Perhaps Toshiba had plans to maybe release a 51GB 3 layer disc that had movies encoded with the expanded colors. Now that the format war is done maybe 100GB or 200GB BLU-RAY discs one day will be made that offers high bit rate movies encoded with deep color and xvYCC.Right now there is no use for these technologies until someone records source material that takes advantage of this awesome technology. One day deep color and xvYCC might be popular features to have on a display and BLU-RAY player once the special encoded movies are released.

Thanks for the information!! I was aware of the deep color/ xvycc but didn't know there was a connection to the color gamut (108% color gamut). I do like the "future proofing" technologies on this tv a lot, I think I'm going to go with it.

Another question for ya.. What would you get?? Would you look at sets that are on the market now or coming in the next couple months? Or wait until the fall release of '08 or possibly later? And if later what specs would you be looking for?