What's the point of a SFX PSU if the expansion slot is only for trivial things, i.e. not power intensive. This is the kind of case I want, but it needs to support double slotted graphics cards. A TFX PSU would be ideal, supporting a short, regular height card, slotted horizontally with a PCI-E 90-degree adapter or ribbon. Then it's perfect =P.

What's the point of a SFX PSU if the expansion slot is only for trivial things, i.e. not power intensive. This is the kind of case I want, but it needs to support double slotted graphics cards. A TFX PSU would be ideal, supporting a short, regular height card, slotted horizontally with a PCI-E 90-degree adapter or ribbon. Then it's perfect =P.

Meh.

Obviously a picoPSU would be right for you in this case. But imo, it's still too small a case to support any gaming that needs a discrete graphics card. Too short, front to back. It'd be a different case. An ML03would work much better.

That ML03 is huge. This case is still just a tease. There are new cases that are coming out that are close to the design I mentioned, they are eagerly anticipated by many, so anything in-between just seems a bit pointless.

What's the point of a SFX PSU if the expansion slot is only for trivial things, i.e. not power intensive. This is the kind of case I want, but it needs to support double slotted graphics cards. A TFX PSU would be ideal, supporting a short, regular height card, slotted horizontally with a PCI-E 90-degree adapter or ribbon. Then it's perfect =P.

Meh.

While we currently only offer 300W as our least powerful model, there are lower powered and cheaper SFX PSUs available on the market as well. We believe there are many benefits for using SFX vs. other smaller form factor PSUs, below are ones that we think are the most important:

The first is its square-ish dimension, which give case designer like ourselves more flexibility in creating smaller cases that can be either slim or cube shaped (TFX is a bit too deep compared to SFX in this regard). For SFF cases that have ATX PSU mounts, a simple bracket that we include in our SFX PSUs make them easy to use as well, again this is something TFX isn't suited for because of its elongated shape.

The second benefit is availability, SFX is currently the second most popular PSU form factor after the PS2/ATX so customers have more choices in brand and wattage compared to TFX or PicoPSUs. Plus, SilverStone has been pushing SFX into mainstream for the last three years, and I can confirm that we will continue to invest in it.

Last but not least is the cost. With SFX being more popular than other small form factors, it generally has cost advantage too and this is very important for many users. This is also the biggest downside for PicoPSU, while it is the smallest per watt, you are still required to buy an AC adapter, which could double the cost (and sometimes negate the space saving achieved inside the case by requiring extra space outside case).

Enzo_FX wrote:

That ML03 is huge. This case is still just a tease. There are new cases that are coming out that are close to the design I mentioned, they are eagerly anticipated by many, so anything in-between just seems a bit pointless.

Actually at 7 liters in size, the ML05 is around half the size of those Mini-ITX slim cases that can fit dual slot graphics card. The RAVEN prototype (will be officially named RVZ01) we revealed at Computex in June for example is about 14 liters, which is similar in size volume to our other cube-shaped SFF cases SG07 and SG08.

So ML05 is definitely not a in-between product, it is designed for those who seek smallest possible standard Mini-ITX case in desktop, HTPC form factor. ML03 is similar in spirit, but designed for Micro-ATX motherboard and more standard components with the exception of graphics cards (we have SG09 / SG10 for that purpose).

While we currently only offer 300W as our least powerful model, there are lower powered and cheaper SFX PSUs available on the market as well.

I am continually puzzled by the lack of lower wattage PSUs. IMHO except for gamers there is no reason that anyone needs a PSU that delivers more than 150W. This article had a couple of configurations and the systems drew from 70-100W when fully loaded. Isn't it a waste to then use a 300W PSU, especially since PSUs are designed to be more efficient when they are used at something like a 70% load.

I have several PCs in my house, including a media server, but every PC that I have built in the last few years (and every one that I build in the future) will use the GPU integrated into the Sandy Bridge/ Ivy Bridge/Haswell CPU. These CPUs use less power than the CPUs from 5-10 years ago despite being more powerful. And I also only need an SSD for storage since I have a home server to hold my content. Therefore why do I need a 300/450W PSU or more?

I completely agree with Wayner.I am using my i3-3225 for everything I need, with no GPU card, just the HD4000.I am currently stressing it at 100% CPU. Got 70W on the plug. I only had a peak at 85W at the boot, when all drives start to spin, but otherwise it runs at 44W (on the plug), when idle and usual tasks.I would love to buy good quality PSU that delivers 150W.(For my next build, I'm gona take a 300W because there is nothing smaller from Be Quiet and from SilverStone...)

A bit out of subject:Dear SST Guy,(Since you are around and it's great to read message from manufacturers and vendors!!)Do you know if there are any plans for a vertical mini ITX case, in the future?I really love the quality of my TJ08-E. I would directly order something smaller and vertical, like the Lian Li PC-Q07 style, if ST was making it.I like your SG series, but they are small and deep, which still takes space on the table.

@MikeC - Thanks for doing the testing for these types of cases - I find it very useful.

FYI - HD Plex is coming out with a new smaller passive case called the H1. It is supposed to be shipping before the end of the year - any chance you can get one and do a review on how well it cools down a CPU and what the max TDP actually is in such a case? Their web page says a max of 75W but could you use an i7-3770K that is rated at 77W? Or what about an i7-4770K that uses a TDP of 84W?

I am continually puzzled by the lack of lower wattage PSUs. IMHO except for gamers there is no reason that anyone needs a PSU that delivers more than 150W. This article had a couple of configurations and the systems drew from 70-100W when fully loaded. Isn't it a waste to then use a 300W PSU, especially since PSUs are designed to be more efficient when they are used at something like a 70% load.

I have several PCs in my house, including a media server, but every PC that I have built in the last few years (and every one that I build in the future) will use the GPU integrated into the Sandy Bridge/ Ivy Bridge/Haswell CPU. These CPUs use less power than the CPUs from 5-10 years ago despite being more powerful. And I also only need an SSD for storage since I have a home server to hold my content. Therefore why do I need a 300/450W PSU or more?

The situation with lack of lower wattage retail PSUs is the same for all form factors (except maybe PicoPSU), it has more to do with cost and economics. 10 years ago, the most powerful PC power supplies top out at around 600W or so. Nowadays, 1200W+ PSUs are everywhere thanks to improving technology that makes it easier to create cheaper and higher wattage PSUs. Current top of the line 1000W PSUs cost around the same as 600W PSUs years ago and similarly 500W PSUs now cost about the same as 300W units from the same period. So you get diminishing returns in cost savings the lower you go, since PSU platforms are designed to accommodate multiple wattage levels. We could release a 250W SFX based off of our ST30SF for example, but the price difference would likely be less than $5 (something like $45.99 vs. $49.99) and you can probably see why we decided to release only the 300W version. There is even a 300W SFX PSU on Newegg that is currently selling for $12.99: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817338031

This is an extreme example of a low end unit, but again you can clearly see that even for them, there isn't much room to go lower wattage and still be profitable.

A bit out of subject:Dear SST Guy,(Since you are around and it's great to read message from manufacturers and vendors!!)Do you know if there are any plans for a vertical mini ITX case, in the future?I really love the quality of my TJ08-E. I would directly order something smaller and vertical, like the Lian Li PC-Q07 style, if ST was making it.I like your SG series, but they are small and deep, which still takes space on the table.

It is much smaller than TJ08-E in both overall size and footprint (17.6 liters vs. 30.2 liters). Although it does have slightly bigger footprint than PC-Q07, their airflow/cooling potential are in completely different leagues. You should have a much easier time with FT03-MINI in building a silent system utilizing anything more than the lowest end components.

We could release a 250W SFX based off of our ST30SF for example, but the price difference would likely be less than $5 (something like $45.99 vs. $49.99) and you can probably see why we decided to release only the 300W version.

With the right marketing and customer education, I'm sure one can establish a profitable market for low-PSUs. I doubt anyone _here_ is expecting major savings off a high-quality low-wattage unit.

As wayner says, it seems very nonsensical to install a 300W PSU in an small form factor PC that can't even hold any peripheral hardware. And if I'm not mistaken, SSF builders are exactly the target audience for SFX.

I agree with you Cistron, but STT Guy has a point.They would not get enough profit, by making a 200W SFX, because it would sell the same as the 300W.

For the customer, it's quality first of course (and maybe more on that, for SPCR people. But we are far from the majority).But then, it's also the price.

Quick example: I am looking at the price of picoPSU. The 150 is 42€ and the 160-200 is 45€I will surely order the 160, because I can use more power in future, if needed.

(Thanks STT Guy. I really love the FT03 Mini since I discovered it on some forum. It has great potential for cooling a powerful rig. But in my case, looking to build a very low power computer, I don't need this special design. I have no doubt the design is great, but it just cost 2 times more than the other one.I guess, it's back to the same conclusion as for the low power SFX PSU. There is no need for SilverStone to make a copy of the "empty" Q07 and sell it same price. The FT03 Mini has a real added value, for the one who would pay the extra.)

What's the point of a SFX PSU if the expansion slot is only for trivial things, i.e. not power intensive. This is the kind of case I want, but it needs to support double slotted graphics cards. A TFX PSU would be ideal, supporting a short, regular height card, slotted horizontally with a PCI-E 90-degree adapter or ribbon. Then it's perfect =P.

Meh.

While we currently only offer 300W as our least powerful model, there are lower powered and cheaper SFX PSUs available on the market as well. We believe there are many benefits for using SFX vs. other smaller form factor PSUs, below are ones that we think are the most important:

The first is its square-ish dimension, which give case designer like ourselves more flexibility in creating smaller cases that can be either slim or cube shaped (TFX is a bit too deep compared to SFX in this regard). For SFF cases that have ATX PSU mounts, a simple bracket that we include in our SFX PSUs make them easy to use as well, again this is something TFX isn't suited for because of its elongated shape.

The second benefit is availability, SFX is currently the second most popular PSU form factor after the PS2/ATX so customers have more choices in brand and wattage compared to TFX or PicoPSUs. Plus, SilverStone has been pushing SFX into mainstream for the last three years, and I can confirm that we will continue to invest in it.

Last but not least is the cost. With SFX being more popular than other small form factors, it generally has cost advantage too and this is very important for many users. This is also the biggest downside for PicoPSU, while it is the smallest per watt, you are still required to buy an AC adapter, which could double the cost (and sometimes negate the space saving achieved inside the case by requiring extra space outside case).

Enzo_FX wrote:

That ML03 is huge. This case is still just a tease. There are new cases that are coming out that are close to the design I mentioned, they are eagerly anticipated by many, so anything in-between just seems a bit pointless.

Actually at 7 liters in size, the ML05 is around half the size of those Mini-ITX slim cases that can fit dual slot graphics card. The RAVEN prototype (will be officially named RVZ01) we revealed at Computex in June for example is about 14 liters, which is similar in size volume to our other cube-shaped SFF cases SG07 and SG08.

So ML05 is definitely not a in-between product, it is designed for those who seek smallest possible standard Mini-ITX case in desktop, HTPC form factor. ML03 is similar in spirit, but designed for Micro-ATX motherboard and more standard components with the exception of graphics cards (we have SG09 / SG10 for that purpose).

Unfortunately I don't have any set schedule on the availability of ML06. We are hoping that most Asian countries should have this before the end of the year. For North America, probably by new year and middle to late January in Europe.

I have just completed a build using the ML05 to occupy a bit less space than a previously built SG05.I built this system as a low power Vortex Box (http://vortexbox.org/about) to serve music to a Squeezebox music player. The mobo is an Asrock B85M-ITX with 8Gb ram, an Intel Pentium G3420 processor with stock cooler and a single Seagate 4TB disk drive. I used a Silverstone SFX Series 450W PSU in the SG05, but after measuring 40 Watts at startup and 12 ~ 14 Watts in operation I went for a PicoPSU-120 for the ML05 build.

As Mike says in his review, mounting a 3.5" drive on the multi-purpose bracket doesn't leave much room for the CPU cooler, in fact the stock cooler on the G3420 CPU I used is about 3mm (1/8") too high so that the disk presses on the top of the fan and bows the mobo before the bracket is even screwed on. However, the space allocated for the PSU and the 2.5 drive cage fitted a spare plastic 5.25 to 3.5 adapter, so the hard drive sits beside the mobo with the bracket held in place with velcro. The system currently is on my desk and system noise is lost in the ambient household noise, although leaning over the case closer than 6" I can hear the cpu fan and maybe the Seagate 4TB drive.

Edit: The 4TB drive occasionally reached 45C, so I installed a Noctua 80mm fan in the case lid blowing down onto the disk. In the B85M-ITX I set this fan to quiet operation and I haven't noticed an increase in noise from the case but the disk now stays below 35C.

Wirrunna, I just finished a build myself on a ML06 case, which has the same internal configuration as your ML05. I would like to comment on the hard drive issue. I was initially going to reuse one of my 500GB 3.5 inch drives, which normally is mounted above the CPU. I agonized back and forth on this because I am cheap and didn't want to buy a 2.5 inch drive, but at the same time I knew that locating that 3.5 inch drive above the CPU would seriously affect air flow to the CPU as well as make things so crowded in that area that it would be a nightmare to get everything installed and connected. In the end, I did not install the 3.5 inch drive. I bought a new 1TB 2.5 inch drive, and installed it in the 2.5 inch cage along with my existing SSD and another 2.5 inch HDD. There is no cooling fan for the drive cage, but all three of them always range between 32 to 35 degrees C. Because those 2.5 inch drives are quiet and cool, it is not necessary to have a fan in that area, so noise is kept to a minimum. Also, because the area above the CPU is now pretty open due to not mounting a 3.5 inch drive there, the CPU is adequately cooled as well. All in all I am pleased with that arrangement and love the ML06 case. Your use of a Pico power supply is very interesting.

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