The Official Supernatural: “ScoobyNatural” (13.16) Live Recap Thread

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In case you’ve been under a rock all day, the show got renewed.

We begin with Dean getting tossed around a shop by a giant, possessed … uh … green dinosaur. Really. We know it’s possessed by something because its eyes keep glowing. Sam jumps into the fray and tackles the dino. As Sam pins it down, Dean pours holy oil on it, then yells at Sam to get out of the way as he tosses a lighter on it. The dinosaur thrashes around, burning, then explodes into a shower of green and white confetti. Just in case you were expecting this to be a serious episode.

As the Brothers get their breath back, the shopkeeper (named Alan) stands up from behind his counter and asks if it’s over. Sam says yes and apologizes for the mess, but Alan heads him off at the guilt pass.

Alan: You guys just took down an evil plushie that was trying to kill me. We’re all good!

Another guy comes in, whom Alan introduces as owning most of the real estate in the general area. The guy is suspicious of the Brothers, but this doesn’t stop Dean from taking Alan up on his offer to give them anything in his store. Dean chooses a large screen color TV, around which he creates a “Dean cave” back at the Bunker, while Sam tries to research how and by what an evil stuff dinosaur could have been possessed.

When Dean shows Sam the Dean Cave, Sam asks how Dean found the time to organize the room. Dean tells him that you just make time, which probably translates to Dean being totally sleepless and wired on something. But let’s not go down that rabbit hole.

When Dean hits the remote on the TV, something strange happens. The same violet light that appeared in the dinosaur’s eyes lights up the TV screen and then flashes out at the Brothers. They disappear …

… and reappear inside a cartoon.

After an initial mutual freak-out, Sam starts to dither a bit more on his own that maybe it’s a dream. Dean slaps him (leaving a literal, if temporary, handprint) and tells him to focus. Sam’s still stuck on whether they’re inside the TV or what. Dean says that maybe it’s an angel thing, or the Trickster.

Sam: But he’s dead.

Dean: Or … is he?

Obvious foreshadowing is obvious.

Dean quickly boils it down to: In order get out, they have to forge on, so when they discover the Impala right next to them (when Sam questions this, Dean suggests it’s because the keys are in his pocket), they get out on the road and drive to the tune of “Dean’s Dirty Organ.”

They soon arrive at a malt shop, which Sam is rather sarcastic about. Dean says they should just pull in, go inside, ask some questions, and get their bearings. But then they see a shocking sight. The Mystery Machine is parked outside. They are inside a Scooby-Doo cartoon.

Cue animated title cards with the title “Scoobynatural.”

[sigh] We’re gonna get a cartoon spin-off now, aren’t we?

The Brothers enter the malt shop and Dean immediately spots the Scooby Gang dancing, while Scooby himself is drinking a series of milkshakes. Dean fanboys, but Sam is more skeptical. Why would Dean care so much? Dean points out that they watched Scooby-Doo their entire childhood. He calls the Scooby Gang “our role models.”

Dean: Just think about it – we do the same thing. We go to spooky places. We solve mysteries. We fight ghosts.

When Sam points out that their ghosts are real and dangerous, and they don’t have a talking dog, Dean compares Castiel to one.

So, the Brothers introduce themselves to the Scooby Gang and try to get through to them that they’re famous. The Scooby Gang respond rather blankly to this, especially Daphne, who acts like a total airhead when Dean hits on her relentlessly right in front of Fred. Actually (spoiler alert), Daphne acts like a total airhead the entire episode and Dean hits on her relentlessly the whole time, and I can’t say I’m wowed by that dynamic at all, even if Dean is up front about his contempt for Fred.

So, the Scoobies are on a case. It seems Scooby-Doo just inherited a fortune from a mysterious Southern colonel (even in a cartoon episode, we just can’t escape the suckage that is Asmodeus). He saved the guy from drowning, but now the Colonel is dead and they’re off to visit his creepy old house. The Scooby Gang senses a mystery.

When Sam grumbles a bit too loudly about this, Dean pulls him aside for a much-needed attitude-adjustment chat. Sam complains that the cartoon world they’re in is so shallow that there isn’t even any print in the newspaper article about the Colonel’s death. Dean reminds him that the last time they ended up inside a TV (“Changing Channels”), they had to play along until they could get back out. So, he’s playing along. Sam reluctantly comes with as Dean easily weasels his way into riding with the Scoobies. But not before some road food involving Shaggy, Scooby – and Dean – eating their signature absolutely enormous sandwiches. Reportedly, this was Jensen Ackles’ favorite bit to voice in the episode.

Outside, Dean challenges Fred to a drag race, which (alas) the Mystery Machine easily wins when Fred beats Dean on the draw. Sam asks Dean why he hates Fred so much and Dean’s response boils down to “He’s perfect.” Oh, Dean.

Sam: Let it go, dude.

Dean [after a moment of apparent defeat]: NO.

At the creepy old mansion, Dean realizes they’re in the episode, “A Night of Fright Is No Delight.” This is a real episode, btw, from season one.

At the reading of the will (which is on a vinyl record), the Colonel tells his various heirs that each one will inherit a million dollars, but only if they can stay the night at his mansion. If any of them leaves, their share will go to the others who don’t. There’s one catch – the house is haunted. The startles Sam and frightens Scooby.

Sam complains that the conditions are ridiculous and can’t possibly be legal, causing Velma to tell him that ghosts don’t exist and these kinds of situations happen all the time. Sam starts to blurt out that sure, they happen inside a cartoon, but Dean stops him. Dean tells Sam that the Scooby Gang are “pure and good,” and the Brothers aren’t going to blow that for them by messing with their minds by telling them they’re inside a cartoon.

Sam grumbles that Dean just wants to get with Daphne. He has a point (Dean’s obsession with Daphne is pretty messed up), but so does Dean. There really isn’t any positive or beneficial point to destroying the Scooby Gang’s sense of their own reality, any more than Sam and Dean can just skip to the end of the story. After all the fantasy worlds they’ve been in, Sam should know that by now, but maybe Dean’s just more of a veteran of this multiple-worlds deal.

The lawyer, Cosgood, tells them he’ll be back in the morning and leaves with a creepy laugh. Dean tells Sam Cosgood is the bad guy of the episode. Sam rolls his eyes. If they watched Scooby-Doo their entire childhoods, shouldn’t Sam have a good chance of remembering this episode, too?

Anyhoo, one of the side characters (an heir) suggests they all turn in at 10pm, which gives Dean the chance to creep on Daphne some more. Sadly, she notes that “girls and boys don’t sleep together” and goes off to sleep with Velma. In the same bed. Oh, the possibilities. But since it’s written by two straight guys who totally didn’t see the #Metoo movement coming, that doesn’t go anywhere.

Dean and Sam have to sleep in the same room as Fred and Scooby (not sure where Shaggy is). As usual, Dean finds perks to their current situation. He loves wearing a nightshirt. Sam is in pajamas. So is Fred.

Meanwhile, the girls are talking about the Brothers. Daphne likes them and Velma thinks Dean is okay, but thinks Sam is an idiot for believing in ghosts. Daphne calls her on this, pointing out that Sam is just Velma’s type, and Velma blushes.

Meanwhile, what looks like a ghost is roaming the halls, cackling. One of the heirs is brushing his teeth when the lights flicker and his breath fogs up. He turns around to see the ghost, which goes after him with a knife while flaring pink light.

Meanwhile, Sam is complaining about Dean eating another sandwich while the others sleep. Dean uses his knowledge of the episode to note that in a minute or so, someone will go missing and “the Scoobies are gonna think that it’s a ghost. But really, it’s the lawyer, Cosgood Creeps, in disguise.” At that moment, they hear a scream. “Toldja,” Dean says.

Everyone runs toward the room from which emit the screams (note: The animation for this episode is better than the rather bare-bones animation of the original; Hanna-Barbera wasn’t known for sparing no expense). Inside the heir’s room, Daphne finds a body soaked in blood. Dean is confused, saying the “dummy bodies don’t show up until later,” but when Sam pulls off the blanket, the heir is really dead, stabbed to death. The Scooby Gang is shocked.

Fred utters the classic Scooby phrase: “Well, gang, it looks like we got another mystery on our hands.” The Brothers are flabbergasted at how cold-blooded the Scooby Gang is about the murder, as the Scoobies stroll off to look for clues, utterly unconcerned by what they’ve just seen.

Dean is confused, saying that nobody ever dies in Scooby-Doo. Sam worries that if the rules have changed so much that a character has died, they can, too. Dean is more worried about Scooby dying: “I’d take a bullet for that dog.”

In the drawing room, Shaggy and Scooby are frightened by the possibility that ghosts really exist, while Fred and Velma pooh-pooh the idea. But as Velma is taking a page from Sherlock Holmes, a creepy figure creeps past the window behind her. The Brothers get into position to ambush it as it opens the window, but Fred grabs it first, throwing it to the ground wrapped in a curtain. When Dean yanks off the curtain, it’s … Castiel.

Startled, the Brothers help him up and Dean introduces him to the Scooby-Gang. Shaggy and Scooby come right up to welcome him, prompting Castiel to note that Scooby talks. Apparently, the show writers forgot that Castiel can talk to animals and doesn’t find it strange in the least.

Dean asks Castiel how he got into the cartoon. There’s a flashback of Castiel returning from Syria with “fruit from the tree of life.” He recounts an amusing tale of killing most of the djinn who were guarding it, before striking up a bargain with the survivors and accidentally marrying their queen.

He entered the room where the cursed TV was, saw the Brothers starting their drag race with the Mystery Machine, saw pink and purple sparks, and was dragged into the cartoon. There’s previously been a creepy figure as the Impala roared away in the drag race. It turns out that was Castiel.

As the Brothers bring Castiel up to speed, Velma listens in, then mocks Sam for his belief in ghosts. Gotta say that even for simplistic cartoon characters, the Scooby Gang are annoyingly broad here, with the exception of Shaggy and Scooby, who are criminally underused so far. The voicework for them is great, though.

Suddenly, there’s a distant roar, the lights flicker, and the room turns cold, scaring Shaggy and Scooby. Cue a montage of lit lamps and flashlights, and ghost hands on window glass, as everyone investigates. The Brothers hear a side character getting sliced and diced inside a room, and investigate. But all the doors in the very long hallway slam shut and when Sam reaches for a doorknob, a ghostly hand slaps his flashlight aside.

Then the ghost makes its appearance. Shaggy and Scooby jump into each other’s and then Castiel’s arms. Fred tackles the ghost twice, which doesn’t help when the ghost disappears into the wall. The Brothers duck. There’s some discussion from Velma about how this couldn’t possibly be a ghost, then they all open the door to the room and find a side character ripped apart inside, with half of him tied to the ceiling. Dean nearly throws up. The Scooby Gang walks off, totally unfazed.

Sam asks Dean if the Scooby Gang is always this cold-blooded about dead bodies, but Dean is more concerned about the obvious signs of a real haunting. He thinks the cartoon itself is haunted.

Back downstairs, Fred’s plan is for everyone to split up and “go looking for clues.” The Brothers and Castiel think this is a terrible idea and Sam tries to tell the Scooby Gang that he and Dean can’t protect them if they do that. Velma calls Sam “chicken.”

They compromise on Dean going with Daphne (and, unwillingly, Fred), Velma off with Sam, and Castiel guarding Shaggy and Scooby. Up in the attic, Velma both insults and hits on Sam something heavy. Sam tries to give her The Talk, but Velma will have none of it, not even when they find a chest of possessed toys, covered with ectoplasm, that attack them and drive them out of the attic.

[will finish this tomorrow night]

[Back. Sorry, but I just got 12 trees from the Arbor Day Foundation and the only time I have to plant them as they merrily sprout from twigs is after I get home at dusk. It’s been kind of a busy week.]

Anyhoo, in the library, Dean is hitting on Daphne again and asking her what she likes in a man. She says the usual and then adds “an ascot,” which leaves Dean rather taken aback. Not lovin’ this subplot at all, but I do like when Dean notices a book standing out from the bookshelf (all the other books are painted on the background) and calls this to the attention of Daphne and Fred, who are dismissive about it, at least until a trapdoor appears underneath them and throws them down a long, twisty shaft to a cellar. There, in the dark, Dean thinks he’s talking to Daphne, but it turns out to be the ghost, who chases them.

But then, the ghost is also stalking Scooby, Shaggy and Castiel upstairs. And while I don’t mind at all that Castiel is in this story, why have Scooby and Shaggy been relegated to comic relief with Castiel when Scooby’s the actual star of the show? Why all the focus on Fred, Daphne and Velma, who are boring twits because they are the straight-man supporting characters? There’s not enough Scooby and Shaggy in this episode.

Scooby and Shaggy are frightened by the ghost and run from him. Castiel isn’t, at first, but when Scooby and Shaggy grab him, he’s suddenly telling them to run (cartoon logic, I tell ya).

Cue the classic Scooby-Doo theme song (finally), which involves lots of the old running-around gag (Scrappy-Doo even pops up during a run down the hallway through different doors, though the gag is mercifully brief), and Dean alternately protecting and hitting on a clueless Daphne. Think she’s more in danger from him than from the ghost, though she’s kinda into it toward the end of the montage.

The song ends with their boarding up all the doors and tumbling back into the drawing room. But the ghost busts through and tosses the Scooby Gang all over the place. Poor Shaggy even gets defenestrated, though Scooby goes after him and Castiel saves them both. Sam grabs some iron candlesticks, and he and Dean drive off the ghost.

Fred gets a bloody nose and Shaggy breaks his arm, which shocks the Scoobies to no end. Sam’s suggestion to Dean that they give the Scoobies The Talk backfires as the Scoobies totally freak out and turn on each other (Shaggy is especially bitter). Dean is forced to give them a rousing pep talk about how they are “heroes” and have beaten many a bad guy before. They can do this.

They’re game, but Velma points out that the Scoobies know nothing about real ghosts. Sam says that’s okay. And he and Dean show them the Impala’s trunk. Dean is a little horrified, saying giving salt guns and other such weapons to the Scoobies is a “Scooby-don’t.” But Fred finally wins Dean’s admiration when he says that “we have to do something” and that they can help.

Putting a hand on Fred’s shoulder and swearing for only the second time in the episode (at least in the cartoon world,” Dean says, “You’re fucking right you can.”

Cue Fred setting an elaborate, Goldbergian trap in the drawing room. The trap doesn’t quite work as planned. When Scooby, Shaggy and Castiel act as bait, they get the ghost after them, but accidentally get stuck in the trap. But Dean has a Plan B (“Fred’s plans never work”), which involves the ghost chasing the other Scoobies before being distracted by a book-pelting Scooby, who weighs the ghost down with some books and sends it down the trap door.

The ghost finds itself trapped inside a line of salt (there’s a neat effect of the barrier as it thrashes around inside it that the show usually can’t afford to do). After the Brothers and Castiel inform it that it’s trapped, it finally reveals its true form and identity. It’s a little boy. His soul was attached to a pocketknife, which the creepy neighbor guy of the pawn shop owner got hold of. The guy has been using it to force everyone in the area to sell their shops to him for cheap. That’s why he owns almost everything there. It’s why he compelled the ghost to attack Alan, the pawn shop owner, with the green Barney dinosaur plushie.

The ghost is happy to send them back to the real world after they promise to release it once they get there. But first, Dean asks a favor of it. The Scooby Gang is totally freaked out, so the ghost pretends to be Cosgood and the Scooby Gang reveal him. Castiel heals Shaggy on the sly, Velma acts all smug and then kisses Sam, and Dean says a goodbye to Daphne that she promptly forgets as she runs after Fred and the others leave. Then the ghost reappears, and the Brothers and Castiel are sent back to the real world.

At this point, even Sam is willing to admit that they just had a “cool” experience. Dean agrees, though much more enthusiastically, but quickly gets back down to business. He goes out and returns with a blowtorch and a sledgehammer. Smashing the TV, he finds the pocketknife. The little boy ghost reappears and asks if he will be with his beloved father now. The Brothers are gentle with him as Sam torches the pocketknife. The little boy’s ghost disappears in a puff of white light and smoke up to Heaven.

At the shop, Alan is about to sign away his business to Creepy Real Estate Guy (Jay). Fortunately, the Brothers show up with Castiel, Dean wearing an ascot. Sam and Castiel lay out the plan – he used the ghost to scare off all the local business people so he could buy up their property cheap. CREG tries to claim they can’t prove anything about a ghost. Sam agrees, which is why they hacked his accounts and found out he doesn’t pay his taxes.

As they watch him get put into the car, Sam realizes, “Velma was right. It was a shady real estate developer, after all.”

CREG [as he’s being put in the car]: It’s not fair! I’d have gotten away with it if it wasn’t for those meddling kids! [since when are Dean and Sam still kids? Let alone Castiel?]

Dean: [gasp!] He said it! He said the line! [looks straight at the camera] Scooby-Dooby-Doooooooo! [Sam and Castiel walk away in disgust]

Castiel: Dean, you’re not a talking dog.

Credits are in a different font this week and there’s a new theme song.

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Mark Pellegrino was at a con and HE intimated he would be back next year, that the sparkly stuff we saw on his wings after Dean ganked him was Jack’s Grace (which we’ve never seen before) and that he might regenerate.

Oh, screw me sideways with a SPOON (I first wrote fork and then thought, ick, that would ‘really’ hurt). I would be really ticked if he were dead.

ALSO MP is a trained boxer (I looked it up) and according to Jensen it is scary how close he hits on his ‘fake’ hits. But to ME on Thursday (and I’ve watched the episode FOUR times now, I really liked it) he was missing Jack by about a FOOT each time he hit him. So maybe the production thought he would look ‘too’ overpowering for Jensen (who knows how to ‘fake fight’ not ‘real fight’) but I don’t know. I don’t know why they threw the wire-fight in. Again, maybe it’s wrong to know ‘too’ much about stuff (I DON’T WANT LUCIFER BACK ‘but I don’t want to say, don’t bring back Mark Pellegrino. MAYBE if they had him give up on his smarmy whining I could enjoy the character again?) because I can’t watch Mystery Spot knowing that ‘that’ was when Jared found out about his depression because Sam could NOT save Dean in the episode no matter how hard he tried. They cut it to make it funny for US but it was HORRIBLE for HIM so I can’t enjoy it anymore. I hope that makes sense.

AGAIN, I want to scream DO NOT BRING BACK LUCIFER. Mark Pellegrino is a fine actor (I first noticed him on an old NYPD: Blue in which he was a pathetic alcoholic — not even one of the argumentative ones — who threw up on Andy Sipowicz’ shoes and was totally compliant as a prisoner. (It turned out their mother had killed herself — she was AWFUL — on the phone with his older brother and the older brother was SO furious that she did this to HIM that he went over to her house and mutilated her body — his only crime was corpse meddling. But again, Mark shone in the episode.)

Again, I don’t want the character back for at least one f-ing season IF they were to bring him back at all.

Also I call foul on Jack regenerating too because he can solve anything but death. He can hurt aU Michael although perhaps NOT NOW. He can awaken angels and he can fight his dad and he makes buntimg too easy.

Cas should have said “This is not a good reason because X, Y, Z…” instead he said “Dean, don’t…” Dean was already in his “bull seeing red” mode and in a desperate frame of mind. Never a good thing. And Cas? He was about as useful this episode as teats on said bull.

On my fashion site, tomandlorenzo.com they had a picture of Mischa, Jared and Jensen at the CW upfronts.

Jensen and Mischa were dressed in ‘really’ matching blue suits and Jared stood between them and he had a more casual look; tom AND Lorenzo said Jared looked like the minister for Jensen and Mischa’s wedding and suggested the grooms should kiss.

A few years back they had Jared and Jensen someplace and Jared (like always) had his arms all draped over Jensen. T/L said, we just wish those two would get it over with and kiss. Those boys watch ‘our’ boys.

I do see Cage Michael having been awakened by AU Michael ‘s presence and especially by the Michael sword and going Hell no that fine suit is mine. And Dean saying yes please help.
Dean!Michael!Michael.

It was crane work because they went. Literal machina as in deus ex machina….. they literally staged a Greek tragedy.

Well something about the staging of the finale for me tbinking…. it was very stage like as in classical theater. So I looked up Aristotle’s Poetics and damned if they did not do theere best to stage a proper Greek tragedy in the finale with every bell and whistle per Aristotle. Everything.
So Dean the tragic hero falls. They went full on tragedy bless their hearts.
It will be explained in my review for WFB not that anyone cares.
And the masks all season… homage to Greek tragedy totally.

I liked how everything seemed great until it wasn’t. I got a Blue Velvet vibe except instead of finding an ear they found blood and a body.

Stunned they went with AU Michael because I did not think Dean could be that reckless. He knows what that archangel is capable of… Save Sammy is Defcon one and Dean gas been to he’ll and back… He already lost him once… still… NOOO.

Okay. I did speculate that Lucifer wanted Jack for his power and even foresaw the possibility of him stealing his grace. I did not really think much beyond that point however so I did not see a fifth act hail Mary maneuver for Lucifer to go mad Gonzo nuclear.

Not did I forsee Samsel in distress again which was perhaps short sighted of me. Always consider Samsel in distress

And I never never never Saw Dean making that deal. Not AU Michael. But Save Sammy does make Dean desperate and crazy. Still. No no no. Bad idea. So bad.

They really rushed the ending and the production sucked which was disappointing. A few more minutes… guys… WTF!

Funny that I was right about the broad strokes… but could not see it being AU Michael.

Definitely knew it was going to be Dean!Michael for two seasons . Nailed the heroic tragic fall/tragic flaw stuff.. and what a Big tragic fail this was making thst deal with AU Michael. Very bad judgement Dean. You just sold the entire world for your brother.

Nailed anger management issues for Jack. I love that he told Dam he loved him and then committed suicide. OPT. He is a mix of Dean, Sam and Gas. Love him.

Alll of the mental health stuff tossed… I guess Dean just needed Mary and Jack home… his family around him. Dean needs his family and deconstructs without them. And it was great Dean just took charge again. Team Free Will rocked against the Werewolves. The opposite of the vampire cave clusterFCK.

No crazy Michael yet… seems like he has to come out to play to fix heaven.

Worried about what AU Michael has done to Dean. Is he like Donnie inside. Is he alive.
Nice suit. Though.

The reveal of Dean with wings (#Hunterwings!) was really cool, but the music was straight out of The Ten Commandments. And I’m still laughing over all the flying squirrel memes on Twitter about that aerial battle. Still, Lucifer’s actual death was pretty cool and the scene where Michael takes over was pure horror. Nice acting, there, Ackles.

I think Pellegrino must suck at fight scenes and they had nothing. They wanted the aerial because they wanted the shot of Dean falling. So beautifully shot. Dean Winchester’ s tragic fall. i feel sorry for the writers because they are trying to give Dean a rich. multiseason storyline and No one sees it.

Yeah Lucifer is dead but I don’t think tbis was a good decision. It was The worst of his decisions Because The risk of it going. South was huge and he did not consider other options because FAMILY.
He should have listened to Castiel.

I described it to the man and even with his Tennessee small town high school Odyssey/,classics. English he was like…. Whoa. . Dean Winchester Fell from gracekindcof like Icarus and had his tragic fall… are you okay…. that has to hurt. OPT. Sometimes he’s worth it.

So AUMichael says he can’t defeat Lucifer cause his vessels body was damaged? Seems like he kinda maneuvered Dean into offering himself as he knew Dean was his sword. So it’s AUMichaelDean. The last Archangel remaining. Unless of course you want to count CageMichael. They may yet have to fish him out in order to defeat AUMichael/Dean. How hot was that last shot? AUMichael/Dean’s pretty sexy. 🙂 How does an angel break a deal like that? Dean had to allow the possession of his vessel. Tho I guess there is a bit of precedent in that Gadreel took over Sam. When Dean laid down the non sexy rules they never showed AUMichael agreeing so I wonder if that’s the loophole. I liked that Dean and Sam got the Lucifer kill. Lucifer dead. Yeah. Until they magically resurrect him. He’s probably got one of Rowena’s “Free Get Out Of Death Card” thingy.

So what mischief will AUMichael/Dean – I’m going to refer to him as Mean – be getting into? Wiping out evil? Smiting sinners? Scorching the Earth? Well, he did say 2nd times the charm.

Poor Jack. Did Lucifer take all his grace or is there enough there to regenerate? Cas looked pretty devastated. I wonder if he figures that AUMichael will not give up control in spite of the agreement.

To TPTB…please, please send the AU people – AUBobby and AUCharlie especially – back from whence they came. Don’t need a fake Bobby or fake Charlie.

Wow Jared and Jensen looked good this ep. Strangely so did Mark.

Ok. Billie aka NuDeath pointedly said “Be seeing you soon, Dean”. Was that foreshadow or red herring. Deans clearly still in his body because Michael thanked him for the suit.

Does anyone have an issue with the “true vessel” for AUMichael? Dean was never part of the AU world so how could he be the “true vessel” of AUMichael? It would have made more sense for it to be CageMichael.

THAT being the huge fight between Michael and Lucifer was a tad underwhelming. What did you think?

I don’t have a problem with the “true vessel” thing, since the “breeding program” had been going on for billions of years. Just because alt-Mary scuppered/delayed things by refusing YED’s deal, that doesn’t mean there wasn’t a plan to have a Sam and a Dean. I’m much more bothered by how underwhelming alt-Michael was all season, like the rest of the alt-verse nonsense.

I’m rolling my eyes a bit at the people saying Dean didn’t have a plan to deal with alt-Michael once Lucifer was finished. Dean’s smart and Dean’s suicidal. He probably had every intention of saying some quick goodbyes-apologies to Sam and Jack, and then stabbing himself, but Lucifer’s smiting unexpectedly weakened him and he was distracted by his victory. It gave alt-Michael time to override his defenses and take control. But we still have a living, fighting Dean, so….

As for the fight, the choreography was pretty silly, but I don’t think any of it was quite as bad as “Swan Song.”

Swan Song…lol
Yes Dean probably should have killed himself….
And in character Dean would have.
And given thst surreal fight club thing with Jack committing suicide…. so thought maybe they would go for the classic tragedy trope in which two dies and Dean would save the world truly from his bad tragic impulsive fatal flaw
And he should have immediately then stabbed himself after saying we won.
We did it. In goes the knife. ..

Dean should never have made the deal sorry. Too risky. It is one thing when he risks himself.
He risked the world.

Okay. I did speculate that Lucifer wanted Jack for his power and even foresaw the possibility of him stealing his grace. I did not really think much beyond that point however so I did not see a fifth act hail Mary maneuver for Lucifer to go mad Gonzo nuclear.
Not did I forsee Samsel in distress again which was perhaps short sighted of me. Always consider Samsel in distress
And I never never never Saw Dean making that deal. Not AU Michael. But Save Sammy does make Dean desperate and crazy. Still. No no no. Bad idea. So bad.
They really rushed the ending and the production sucked.
Funny that I was right about the broad strokes.
Definitely dean!Michael . Nailed the heroic tragic fall/tragic flaw stuff. Big tragic fail making thst deal with AU Michael. Very bad judgement Dean.
Nailed that Dean would kill lucifer. Good job Dean. No more Lucifer A+
Nailed anger management issues for Jack.
Allll of the mental health stuff tossed… I guess Dean just needed Mary and Jack home… his family around him. Dean needs his family. And it was great Dean just took charge again. Team Free Will rocked against the Werewolves. The opposite of the vampire cave clusterFCK.
No crazy Michael yet… seems like he has to come out to play to fix heaven.
Worried about what AU Michael has done to Dean.
Is he like Donnie inside. Is he alive.
Nice suit.

I wrote a rather long piece about the road to the Apocalypse and Dean!Michael over seasons 12 and 13 for WFB that is going up tonight if anyone is interested. Apparently the majority of ESG have left the site so I will most likely review the show next year for them. Anyhow I am sure it will generate comments since I seem to think about things differently than most viewers and it is pointedly Deancentric.
I am Mary positive. I liked what Dabb did for some storylines. I love what he did for Dean. The last two seasons were totally Deancentric. They had a plan and It was Apocalypse 2.0 and Dean!Michael.
I gave y’all a mention for being nice listeners when my theories seemed rather far fetched.
So if you are interested please give it a read and comment.

Give them time. If you think the ESGs have mellowed then you haven’t been over there for some time. I’m suprised there is any flesh left on your bones by now. 😉

And since you have chosen to talk poorly about my dear, sweet Adam – Im hoping that when Dean agrees to Michael that Adam is piggybacking along as a stowaway and when Michael/Dean win the fight and Michael leaves as per the agreement – that Adam rears his now ugly head and refuses to vacate the fine, prime real estate that is Dean Winchester. If Adam is demonic then he wouldn’t need Deans okay the way Michael would. Hmmm….

Adam smells socks in He’ll. That is a line from the old SNL Exorcist parody… Your momma smells socks in Hell … lol.

Alice said that most of them had gone away. I figured they were depressed because no more Hellpain, no more Dean in waiting, no more super Sam.

My eyes popped out of my head when I was informed that season 10 was about Sam trying to prevent Dean from killing him. OMG. I forgot to drink the koolaid. I never Saw one scene of moC Dean trying to kill sam. And I think it i debatable whether DD woukd have because DD killed no one he was violent but preferred psychological torture. He would probably have stopped in time laughed at Sam’s terror and broken his kneecaps so he would never have walked again then his fingers so he never would hold a syringe again.

It reminded me about season 8 being about evil Benny and his long-term con which involvrd dying to save,sam from Purgatory. Worst con man ever.

That storyline would piss me off..
But Dean’s grand gestires always come with an ruh roh.
My guess Michael provides the run roh…
or Dean himself because of his mental state or both because of their mental states.

They will love that I think Dean went too far to save Sammy…. oh wait…. Dean can never go too far to save Sammy….
I have literally alienated the entire fandom except maybe the mishamigos.
His performance as tragedy at the end was beautiful as was his performance as a Greek mourned during when he realizes that Dean has made up his mind. It was all silent. The only thing which was missing was for him to rend his clothes and and cry unto the heavens “Alas, alack all is lost. Oh curly haired Chuck can you not show pity on strong armed Dean and intervene before it is too late.” And when Dean fell he our teacher his arm like Adam in to his Creator in Michelangelo ‘s revered Sistine
Chapel to save him and of course par f or Chuck Dean was on his own to fall, to fail tragically. OPT.

I think the Fall was Michael’s. They were both in the same body at that moment. Dean was hurt by the smiting and crash to earth, and Michael betrayed their deal a moment later, taking advantage of Dean’s pain and distraction. As we all know, in SPN, you break a deal, it doesn’t go well.

Nope. 2 seasons of Dean. Dean’s flaw is excess of love for family. He chose Sam over the world. Dean fell.

In a greek tragrdy the hero goes from happiness to misery in a single day. He makes an error that will bring tragedy, bloodshed even death.

Michael is not a hero. He cannot fall.

Dean fell. I knew he would. I Expected him to go with crazy Michael an unknown not evil Michael. But I also never expected them to oil out the Aristotle rules for a good. Tragedy. Everything Lucifer did was recommended by Aristotle and he was right it makes for gripping tragedy. Once that happened I knew THE FATAL FLAW- SAVE SAMMY woukd kick in as the prime directive and it was AU and I was sick and my face was frozen in the tragedy mask like Cas.

Apparently it wss the most read review last week and generated a good buzz and chat.
I am behind on the comments. Got tied up with a fan of the nep dup.
This review is going to be controversial I rbink.
I agree with Cas.

I really liked AU!Michael tonight. He had the swaggering confidence that he was the Biggest Bad that ever was.

Dean was ‘flying’ (!) at the end so I guess we got our Archangel!Dean but we don’t know which one is which.

Do you think Sam told Dean his plan to leave Lucifer behind before he did it and Dean agreed or do you think Sam did it and Dean backed his play in retrospect? Listen, Dean went back for CROWLEY and MEG and yes, KETCH because they were part of a team. But Dean ‘also’ said Kill HIM when Luci first showed up. (Only an archangel can kill another archangel so even if Sam had an archangel blade he could not have killed him.) So I think he wanted Gabe and Castiel to do it but neither had the power to do it. “Maybe” Jack could’ve done it.

BUT they can’t go back to AU!Earth because they lack archangels and their grace. Nobody mentioned that. I mean AU!Bobby gave a big speech, but how can they go there? Or is everybody expecting Jack to open a rift all by himself again?

I don’t buy that Dean would go thru the rift before Sam especially since AUMichael is standing there and had just killed Gabe. Dean just experienced losing his brother for real and forever and by a miracle (well…) Sammy’s back. No way would he leave Sam to be last man standing in that scenario. Plus Dean hates Lucifer and he was still there too. In Deans world he has recently decided that whenever they get close – something always, always goes wrong. Would risk Sam? When he could just as easily do it? And who says they both can’t jump through the rift at the same time? What’s this single file nonsense?

Silly rabbit. They lack Archangel juice until they pull you know who from you know where. That has to be the set up. Either that or like you said Jack will dream walk them over.

Poor Adam. I want him to be Season Fourteens big bad. They have so left him in the historical trash heap of Supernaturals dropped-never-to-be-seen-ever-again characters. And his sin? He made a sacrifice for his mother. And to help the people left on Earth. I’d be pissed.

No. Ketch said only an archangel can kill an archangel with an archangel blade. I think Asmodeus was injecting archangel blood as a workaround which should have killed him… LOL.
Sam coukd have cut out his tongue aand stabbed him several times so he could not hav healed in time to talk himself out of death.

That scene in the promo for episode 23 where Dean is “flying” forward to fight Lucifer and they both clash in the middle? So reminiscent of the one in The Lost Boys where Jason and Kiefer vampire characters battle to the death until one of them is impaled on a rack of antlers. Now fortunately the rip off ends there since this ones shot in a church where there would never be racks of various antler types hanging around… ooh but crucifixes? Different story. “ Waaaait for itttttt!”

Final word. Wayward was not picked up. If it had been I honestly doubt it would have lasted a season. When will they learn that Supernatural isn’t just like any other show. It’s the lightening in the bottle co-stars that make it what it is. If the J’s weren’t on Supernatural I wouldn’t even be watching it. I hope this puts an end to eating up part of the season like these spinoffs do.

Gah. I cannot believe people think Dean will be AU Michael.
They have sent tbis up as Apocalypse 2.0…. a do-over. The entire point from the writing perspective is Dean!Michael.

They have spent two years on a Dean emotional character arc leading up to this drawing upon his relationships with both Sam and Mary, how the events of the Pilot informed his psychology and his,fatal flaw, rhat combination of low self worth , over protectiveness and guilt that leads him to bear the guilt for everything rhat goes wrong and every single loss they face. Then Dean despondent and in despair, usually triggered by extreme loss or extreme emotion pulls an extreme self sacrifice move wirh supernatural mytharc i.mplications to save a loved one and/or get a win. When he does this he never looks to hurt anyone but himself. So there is no way he would let Michael use him. To hurt others. No way.. on my someone with hubris would believe this would work and that is not Dean. And it only worked the last time beca use Chuck let Dean change the story…. those are Chuck’s words. Chuck is not here now.
Dean knows our Michael is downstairs. Come on.

So do you think that once all is said and done MichaelDean just takes off? Michael refuses to return control back over to Dean? Or, does something unexpected happen. For example: Adam piggybacked CageMichael and stayed hidden until Michael leaves once the battle is won. Or: Is Dean killed in the battle, Michael so damaged himself that he is unable to save him and then Billie shows up and makes a deal. Or: Cosmic Consequence bill comes due and Billie shows up to exact her vengeance. Or give Dean a choice? Or does Rowena try to cast Crowley into Dean and something backfires leaving him open for possession by ?

Say Michael does just take off with Deans vessel… what the Hell will he do? Seek out evil? Go on vacation? See a movie? Trip to Disneyland? Decide to try his hand at hunting? Go sing karaoke. Poorly? What? Whaaaaat?!?!?!?

Per Brianna’s tweet it sounds like if there is enough commotion in regards to fans wanting Wayward that there could be some reconsideration? How likely do you think this will happen? How high a number and in how quickly a time frame would it have to be for those PTB need to sway them to the yes column? And you don’t think that there already was a yes and this is a publicity stunt do you?

WS was better than Bloodlines. Unfortunately the ladies came up with the idea themselves initially and I would not put it past the guys to have tanked it via bad rubber suit monsters. Reworking. BUFFY and centering it on Claire were smart. They can give that rift an episode or three next Season and wait and see.
Personally I liked Kaia and Claire and thought killing Kaia off was a bad idea . One could still have an evil Kaia. Patience is meh and too powerful. Everyone else is strong.
Deposed Jack and send him to live with them. He needs some girl power besides Mary who has arrested development.

Oh….. well it was not like he was going to hunt . Life was a cabaret oh chum for D2. And he seemed to complete himself just fine.

This is a bit different.

When I sat down and realized that he had killed himself 3 times in 3 years ….. and they all looked like pretty suicidey to me with the risk quotient so high…. and there was just nothing. Normal about carrying a kill kit in your go bag. There is nothing Normal about killing yourself because there is a house full of ghosts. And it is a big red flag when Death says ….. hey you are different…. you want to die and be done with it all and Dean agrees …. and later Sam does his best to say as much as well.

So….. I think it has to impact the storyline and I think Michael will indeed be crazy.

Shakes head. Yet folks tbink Dean is fine and this was normal ?!@@ because he was saving Sam I guess and dying to save Sam is great unless you’re Benny.

MY thinking: when Billie said See You Soon I thought about the ‘last’ time they had a conversation, in AT. “My” thinking now is that Dean is actually either near death or ‘already’ dead (I don’t think it’s the poisoned bullet, CC; I think it is something else) and that he ‘agreed’ to let Michael in at the moment of his final death. So Dean is not ‘in’ there, he is in Heaven and living a wonderful Heaven life, maybe Hunting with Dad and Bobby while Sam is in school, that kind of thing. And all the Hunts are successful. As a result I think everybody will have to go to Heaven to convince Dean to come back and try to kick out Michael. (I think also that Michael wants to find out why his Father loved his human creations so much. ) Anyway, it could work.

No…. I do not think he is dead already.
He is depressed. And he is going through the motions. I have lived wirh depressed people my entire life. They have done a good job with this storyline. And all of the other mental illness ….. reinforces this interpretation.
He probably will die tonight though to facilitate it or be closer to death. And suicide is his preferred method to call Billile for a favor.

When Sam was hurt…. that was Dean.
Kill. Him.Now. that was Dean. Too..

What if Dean ‘is’ already ‘dead’ but still animated in some way, like not reaped or removed? I for one (and probably just me) would like a plot in which Dean is in a ‘heaven’ that Michael has created for him to keep him happy, a heaven in which he and Sam and Dad and Mom are all Hunters and happy and together and ‘every’ Hunt they participate in has a happy conclusion, like they get a news brief on a person ‘frightened’ by something, head out, and stop the bad ‘monster’ before anybody gets killed. I mean it, would Dean be looking to ‘leave’ his Paradise? And Michael!Dean is the only being in Dean’s body, and we have ‘his’ adventures finding out about His Father’s beloved Creation? And Sam and the rest of TFW have to figure out a way into Heaven to convince Dean to come back or even interact with them? And would they be RIGHT to take Dean from Bliss after all he has suffered ‘here’ on Earth? (I know that IS like the plot of Buffy after she died and Willow ‘spelled’ her back, she had to lie how horrible the afterlife was, I remember that very clearly.) And Michael!Dean is ‘not’ a bad guy this time. I just mean that it would be a quandary.

It’s probably not a good plot line, I can’t even see how it could turn out.

I think he will be mortally wounded in episode and Billie takes him to Michael for a very special meet and greet…. enter Dean!Michael. That is,what see you later Dean meant.
Question is how he is wounded… in battle, by Jack when he goes postal or by yet another suicide.

Adam is dead and with mommy in heaven. Adam sucked and he got to go to baseball games with John. I do not care about Adam or Jessie. They were introduced for lalala reasons. To get Kripke out of his bad writing.

How dare you! Don’t you poo-poo all over my ultimate-unwritten-fan-fiction-head-canon-fantasy of the poor, discarded, forgotten, chucked aside like a used Kleenex – my beloved Adam – like that! He will rise, gloriously, to carry out his revenge on all who have wronged him… and I will be there by his side, his one and only true believer and we will- crap. I said too much. Never mind. You’re absolutely correct. Adam is in Heaven swinging on the play set….

Dean and Sam wanted Mary home.
Maybe Dean is already thinking Michael.
I will not be surprised if we find out there has been communication going on because Dean prayed in 13:1 which made contact much like Sam made contact with Lucifer in 11:1 by praying

I keep thinking on this (like CC): I think there was a little bit more in the AT episode. I think Billie told Dean that Sam would die in AU!Earth in every formulation of the future (how the assault of AU!Michael on our Earth would play) except for ONE: he says yes to OUR!Michael and Michael will settle everybody’s hash. Dean did not want Sam to walk thru the Rift but realized he could not keep Sam from going. And then ‘it’ happened. Most of us here find Dean behaving a-typically, like he is just going thru the motions. I think that started when he found out what Billie ‘knew’ (and that he does believe Billie, that she is dispassionate about what she is telling him, NOT manipulating him) and I think he is counting down to the end. (I see TFW getting the survivors to the Rift to get them ‘here’ safely; Dean has a machine gun firing angel bullets as they are under assault and he is protecting the AU people. The last person goes thru and then the Rift closes and they are hearing the machine gun firing until it closes. Jack opens another Rift and they go thru to find the ground littered with Angel bodies but no Dean. I think Jessica got Dean’s body to Michael so that at the moment of death he could say YES to save both worlds. NO WAY Dean would not say YES in that situation. Dean dies as Michael moves in. Rest of the plot occurs and then TFW want to evict Michael and Ketch throws an angel depossession bomb, only it does not work because the ‘host’ really ‘is’ dead. And next season is trying to figure out how to get Dean out of Heaven and back into Michael. We could have a plotline of Dean in a ‘perfect’ Heaven for him: it is not one day over and over but different Hunts with Dad and Sam and Mom is home safe. Or maybe she’s with them. But it’s a family thing and they are ‘always’ successful. We can have Inside Man Bobby told to get to Dean and tell him to fight to get back to his body; meanwhile Michael has assigned Jack to AU!Earth as Ruler of Heaven and Lucifer is back in the Cage (Dad does not want you dead but you have proved that you just can’t change) and Gabriel is on ‘our’ Throne in Heaven. And Michael wants to see the world and learn to ‘love’ humanity the way Dad wants him to.

We can have Jensen playing two characters but they won’t ever have to be together so that weird splice thing does not have to happen.

So “I” think Billie ‘told’ Dean something about all the possible futures and the only winning play and ‘that’ is why he is depressed.

It won’t let me make a comment on my own so I have to piggyback off yours. 😉

Episode 22. Good Chuck what a mess. Writing was all over the place, editing too. Predictable. Rather boring. Even the heartfelt bro hug. Who in the Hell was AUCas channeling? A cross between Hitler and the entity? Misha is a better actor than that! Where is he dredging up these horrible character voices? My comments are going to jump all over just like the episode so buckle up. How many people are left on AUearth? Just the motley crew they transferred into the bunker? I hope Dean had a chance to hide his top shelf whiskey. Funny Gabe wouldn’t have had to sacrifice himself (redemption – yawn) if everyone had just gotten their asses through the portal instead of standing around gawking. OMG there was so much I disliked about this episode. Once again it was too much for these writers to handle. How much time was wasted with the review of everything we just saw last week and then some as well as the characters “remembering” what they (and we) experienced. Then we finally get into the new footage. Except for the sneak peek. So Mary says “Nyet! I am staying.” And Sam offers a solution an average 9 year old could come up with (which she should have thought of herself) and she can’t believe that he would offer to do this for her. I would have respected her more as a hunter and a mother if she had said “This is what we are going to do…” considering she should have thought of it herself in the first five minutes of coming up with a plan. No slam against Sam but the idea wasn’t exactly Mensa material. And if I have to hear Lucifer’s side- or any variation of the story -one more time…why waste valuable storytime like that? So in Jacks eyes there was some Father-Son bonding – this is not going to work out well when he finds out what Sam did. Jack looked lonely and sad at the bunker rave. Ketch would fall for that ambush? C’mon!!! Charlie, maybe. Ketch, no. He would have slaughtered everyone of the opposing before ever unmasking the dude. And still more torture… how many torture scenes did that make it for the episode? Looks like NepDuo has a new kink. Then in less time than it takes for a fruit fly-you know the drill… the dastardly traitor is sussed out and the prisoners are saved. Yay? Cas meets Cas which was way more boring than I was anticipating. And he kills him. Hey, you could have at least siphoned off his grace first! What a waste! Then miracle of miracle after more Gabe and Lucifer bitching, everyone is on board to go to Wonderland. They heard about the Dean-Ness of Fortitude. He’s gonna need more chairs… Anyone shocked at Lucifer joining forces with Michael? No? Me either. Mind you, we didn’t call pit (wasn’t really thinking about AUMichael to be honest) but it’s hardly out of the box thinking. Preview for next week? Honestly? Less than thrilling. Is AUMichael choking Dean to death and in the process Billie (through earlier agreement with Dean) channels CageMichael into to take over Dean. Dean then says yes before he dies. Afterwards Dean/Michael kills AUMichael and takes on Lucifer. They fight, Sam steps in with the killing blow and puppies, rainbows and candy. Until it’s time for Michael to depart and he refuses and then leaves. Or something.

And I would have been so much more impressed if instead of AUCas/Hitler it would have been Alastair. Damn it. My heart fluttered for one fleeting moment before Dabb crushed it with the well worn heel of his sneaker.

First view? I pretty much hated this episode. Reluctantly I’m going in for a second watch.

Not me. He was an obvious red shirt. I was surprised Lucifer didn’t kill him.

Apparently Lucifer has changed a smidge just not enough. He did look guilty at working with evil AU Michael but not enough to die.

Poor Sam. On Previously they seem to think that the writing favors Sam but my God Dean need a to take away those big boy pants. Yikes.
He is 3 f or 3 failed plans. Twice his big revenge plans for Lucifer have busted. And his macho cave assault sucked too.

I thought it was fine. It set everything up for a straight line to Dean!Michael. AU Michael is full on hubris and already evil monologuing.
Very surprised Dean!Michael gets Lucifer although Micharl did suffer the world’s worst roomie for the longest.

Did Michael’s lance cause eye bleeding?

Based on Jack’s flashbacks , and sad lonely Jack and everyone so happy and Sam probably lying… my guess is that Jack blows up and becomes a powder keg situation and is a side story. Since Anger increases power he could take out AU Michael though to defend his people.

Charlie Sue is so awful. Ketch should have shot angel bullets at the lot then stitched up Charlie ‘s throat and rigged up a blood infusion because he is an universal donor.

OMG!!!
There is an evil Castiel with a milky eye that is a master torturer in the AU Apocalypse. And he was channeling Christopher Weiss’ character from Inglorious Bastards. Too much!!! We always have Hans “Castiel” Novak in our hearts.
Obviously Castiel did not have a vial. I also think that it is consider it rude to take another angels grace.

Mostly the episode suffered from the usual too much left until the end blues plus Nepotism Duo clumsiness.
For me the biggest WTF.
Dean the mechanic always gets the slow no music to classic rock in tight jeans preferably without shirt and at the least with tight tee… always. Big fail.
Dean should have been grumpy and angry the entire episode because he wanted to kill Lucifer but could not. How come Dean didn’t punch him.
Dean having Cas torture and extract information saved time but was weird considering they were in a refugee camp of humans brutalized by angels.
The last time we saw Bobbby he told Mary he would never leave the AU????
Sam’s stupid plan which Dean obviously thought was stupid but went with because he lives his stupid family..
And of course then we had the drama off too many people going ever so slowly through the the wee rift and poor exhausted Rowena being gobsmacked by no darn Winchesters.
Mary’s choice. I have liked the writing choices for Mary up until this one. I understand that she found a place over there. But to give up family. PERMANENTLY.. this is not the Winchester way. It was LOL plottimg ro get the action back home and create feels, tension, drama…. Yawn.
Charlie.

Well… it seemed to me the only rationale for having Sam die and be resurrected tout suite was to foreshadow this happening with Dean. So Dean is dying and Billie facilitates it which meshes with her “see you later” comment as wrll as her acknowledgement that Dean has a role to play and work to do in AT. Dean says yes beca use he has been primed all season to sacrifice himself for a big win to take out a big bad and save the world and he really wants Lucifer dead. So that happens and maybe AU Michael too because I am pretty sure Michael’s lance colors cause bleeding eyes per SitM. Michael should,be able to repair the thing and the camera focused on Dean picking up the pieces and cradling them.

AU Michael is like the playground bully who thinks that the rules do not apply to him. Our Micharl was all about the rules. I could see tbis being a culture clash.

I think they set up Jack going nuclear pretty clearly last night because of emotional conflict triggered by Lucifer. He is a powder keg.

Chuck had angels kill nephilum because they were too powerful and unstable. We are seeing why.

Cas and Sam can remove his grace which can be used to send the refugees home

Maybe the poison in his system causes a problem. Maybe once Michael wins and goes to leave Dean the angel possession has caused an acceleration of said poison and Dean can not recover so Michael has to remain a permanent resident. See? I’m bound and determined to squeeze some more life out of that dropped storyline. 😉

I loved your idea!
Now though I think perhaps Jack goes nuclear and accidentally mortally injures uncle Dean and Billie takes Dean on a spirit walk to Michael for a very special conversation and then Dean!Michael shows up and kicks evil archagel assbutt and then more evil archangel assbutt.

They have been hitting the Jack gets emotional and goes nuclear option and Sam did not get his quarry so methinks Jack will fail try and fail too because of collateral damage and human emotional meltdown.

I think Dean probably just kills himself. It is the most directvroutecto Billie and he has had a lot of practice. Even if Jack or AU Michael injures him, he probably will be dying too slow so he will just cut himself.

The show’s been playing “Let’s bring this old character back, only to kill them off” all season. And yet, we’re still stuck with Charlie Sue, who is still super-speshul even in the friggin’ alt-SPNverse.

AU Bobby is equally annoying. I hate how Show is trying to forge an emotional connection with the boys to both AU characters. It feels false and forced. And an insult to the actual characters memory. I was waiting for Bobby to slap on a wig and start up with the William Wallace speech. God that bunker scene was so corny and maudlin. You know what I got out of this episode? Confirmation as to why I can barely tolerate this writing duo.

I loved Bobby’s character all the way up through the episode where Leviathan Dick killed him. After that Sera ruined him for me and any subsequent appearances are like nails on a chalkboard. Same with Charlie until the MarySued the crap out of her and then killed her off. Now they are doing the same damn thing with AUCharlie. Personally Ihope both characters get killed off for real this time around. For real and for permanent.

I don’t think they were thinking that far…. They wanted Mary home and Sam decided he wanted revenge.
Dean probably already has Michael on the back burner. He always has a plan B and always is steps ahead.

That entire sequence was Bizarro Inglorious Bastards only Ketch seemed to get the memo that they were trying for the good bits of Inglorious Bastards. Everyone else … the entire purpose was to set up Cas vs Cas to foreshadow Michael vs Michael. No other reason. My god do they love Tatentino. My god are they so not Tatentino.
Ketch did an awesome job. He totally channeled that British WWII genre in which the captured soldier nobly dies during torture or is,executed because they do not give up their country. OPT.
Misha was terrible. He should have gone for Waltz not shopping mall Raiders. Between that and POOgod …. And Felicity. 🙁

And now poor Misha has to talk about nothing else at cons and made the horrible mistake of implying he raised Hitler from perdition in that world so the literal pearl clutchers who do not understand humor or intelligent humor are trying themselves in knots over a bad homage to Tatentino that means,nothing except to foreshadow Michael vs Michael. I feel sorry for Misha and ffir me because I tried to explain this to them. But they could not even see that the sequence was deliberately played for high camp. Of course they cannot see that Misha is joking.

Once you see enough of the film’s thst Tarention borrows from he loses his luster .
I thought Reservoir dogs was amazing until I saw John Who’s the Killers and the taking of Pelham 1,2,3. Then….. less awesome it was.
Some interesting dialogue sure. A very tight torture sequence sure. Goid music sure
Pulp fiction …. some interesting bits and dialogue.
Jackie Brown was his best but one cannot go wrong with Elmore Leonard and Pam grief.
Kill Bill 1 and 2 was too long. The Asians,do it better.. There is one sequence worth admission.

As far as Grindhouse… Rodriguez is the true master in my opinion. He is visually stunning.

Nope. I see no reason that she told him anything about Sam. She pretty clearly is not very interested in Sam. She is interested in Dean because he is needed … he has work to do and she was concerned because he was suicidal so she put Jessica on his tail and gave him a pep talk of sorts. Nothing more nothing less. It was cryptic so the twist, obviously Dean!Michael, is what we will see play out and maybe Dean will be healed/resurrected rather than possessed….

Sam is unimportant except as an emotional trigger for Dean and an incompetent team leader.

Mildly enjoyable dreck was Red Meat 2 yet obvious emotional acobatics I do not like says Castiel’s Cat nor do I like Sam i am’s gratuitous death just so Deasn cam emote so very lovely and shed those poignant man tears . The life by Luci maneuver was as obvious as the blood on sam’s neck.

This is the second time Dean, the masn who owned purgatory, has been lagging in the skills department. I take it as a sign of his declining mental state. Inside of entering rhat cave under his,direction with the usual hand signs and paramilitary precision it was all rag tag, struggling, no securing of the perimeter. It reminded me of Dean with Ketch but exponentially worse. He is getting worse.

And yes. Sammy done live… Hallejulah. But what Dean just went through. Was gis,worst nightmare and that has t o have opened the cracks started by 12:23 all the more. Lucifer is not going to help. He is a constant reminder of Dean failing Sam in Apocalypse 1.0 in Dean’s mind and folks,tend to die around him. There will be blood.

I am gonna guess Jack has anger management issues too and maybe his middle name is padawan….???

Rowena…. I have always loved that wee Bonnie witch.
She may be the path to Michael but I cannot believe master strategist Dean has not even had a flicker of consideration.

Limp grace Gabriel. I think he is just an e,tra pair of hands and he redeemed himself just by keeping his promise. I don’t see him fixing heaven. I see him dying. How can he survive.

Ok. What was that! So many things I disliked or questioned in last nights episode. Where do I start? The sexual innuendo from the jump? What are we, twelve? The visual of Gabe’s grace rift petering out. Seriously? Rowena and Gabe scene was cute. A bit. But for a second there I truly had to check and see if this was a Nep Duo episode. The use of the pestle as a phallic symbol? C’mon. Kids do watch this. They got there point across fine without all that. I’m not a prude I just hate to see storyline wasted unnecessarily. Other scenes they could’ve cut – the over long Lucifer’s/Rowena, the overlong Lucifer/Gabriel bar scene. Obviously. Then we get to it. They are using Lucifer to “keep the rift open longer” – no specification as to how long tho Dean and Co. don’t seem to have issue with a three hour tour-I mean, a 2 day trek to Dayton. Did anyone else question the sudden lack of intelligence within the group to just accept the two rambling ramblers word? No precaution, no nothing. Just a “Yup let’s go blindly forth into the probable vamp infested tunnel! What could go wrong? Two legendary hunters, an angel AND an Archangel… we’re golden!” You’re right. Where did all of Deans military moves and hand signals go? Precision. Stealth. Planning. Other than Sams brilliant keep moving forward and stay together. Like he did when they started moving the rocks? Why was he so far away? And why wouldn’t Dean of all people recognize the “boulders blocking the tunnel” as a trap? Was that the only tunnel they could have taken? No. Was that direction given by our two travelers? Why listen to them-they obviously went a different way with their crew. So one vamp can hold Dean back until it couldn’t once he saw Sam being killed. Two vamps can bring down Sam? Oh yeah. Forgot. Uber vampires. Why didn’t someone drop a rock and save Sam? Where was Gabriel and Cas? This whole thing was a mess. So Sam gets his throat ripped out and drug away and Dean is talked down by Cas and his “There’s no time!” Who said? They apparently had enough time to find the camp and have Dean return back to the same spot to get Sams body and no one (looking at you Cas) jumped in and said “There’s no time!” Bleh. I did like how shell shocked Dean was. But I do not believe Dean would leave Sam in those circumstances. Not Dean “We’ll Find Another Way” Winchester. My biggest gripe about this episode is it set up an interesting situation and then from the moment they entered it to Sams subsequent resurrection by Lucifer-they wasted it. In so many ways. Now, speculation time. Lucifer brought Sam back. What if that connection will affect Sam in some way unexpectedly? As in long dormant power? Maybe something that happens to Sam is what sparks whatever it is Dean is yet to do or be done to Dean. Just a thought. On the other hand seeing Sam torn into by those vamps with no way to get to him to prevent or to retrieve after- maybe that was the last LEGO holding Dean together. Yes Sams back but maybe Dean does the drastic based on not ever wanting to see Sam or anyone suffer ever again.

Didn’t Cas kinda hint where they are going to get the angels to repower Heaven? From an AU. So The Empty is just that? An empty storyline and total waste of time? Also what was or who said the line about how there was a connection between one person and the other (last episode maybe?) but they weren’t speaking of vessels? I can’t remember, I’m just thinking that there was a tid bit of forewarning there?

I’ve only watched this once and I have some more speculation kicking around the back of my head. I’ll be back.

Just a note–SPN has never been for kids. *Ever*. It’s always been rated TV-14 and up, and that was probably through great persuasion from the network of the FCC, since the show has always been in trouble for content and even language, from the jump. If anything, the sexuality gets far more of a pass, usually, than the violence from them.

There are kids who watch Game of Thrones and The Walking Dead, too, but we don’t rate the appropriateness of those shows based on whether or not parents allow their kids to watch cable shows with adult ratings.

Alycat… quick response to one or two things,and then I will reread your long thoughtful post.
1. They FIRMLY lol established that Gabriel is an impotent archangel so we can stop speculating rhat he will save the day. I suspect he is a,red shirt walking because he has been redeemed just by participating.

2. Something was very very wrong with Dean. Dean usually is the guy in charge, scoping the situation, using military hand gestures, always,on point, on the lookout, moving stealthy, making fast kills. He was off with Ketch too before the bullet which Ketch pointed out and which was established as his mental state in that episode. Now he is much worse.

The only time he came to was when Sammy was hurt and then it was too late. Declining mental state? Perhaps. Going to Apocalypse world could be triggering major PTSD issues and the dude is,suicidally depressed and smart enoufhbto know that everyone is not coming back.

3. Dean was off which partly lead to the tunnel clusterFCK. Dean not in charge equals disaster usually. Sam plus hubris always leads to disaster and this was the recipe we got. The dream was Sam hubris. Dean the buffoon stuffing his,face whilst Mary thanks her big hero Sam. Sam insisting that they can handle anything and assuring two innocents that they were fearless vampire killers without any Intel. No securing perimeters… yada yada yada. And now he owes his life to Lucifer.

4. Stupid emotional puppetry? My first thought. But then I wondered if it was foreshadowing of Cage Michael resurrecting Dean? Writers love to do this stuff.

5. Lucifer had more mojo than Gabriel but had to feed on a lot of AU Michael’s angels in order to resurrect Sam and was easily caught by Rowena and Limp Gabriel. He is not redeemable either. He is not the archangel they are looking for either.

6. Rowena is searching for a,way to reooen the rift. She is missing one ingredient, she knows how to open the cage and she is a smart wee Bonnie lass… it is a short leap from Michael being out to Michael appeoaching Dean about needing his OTV to defeat AU Michael. Given the subtext in the The Thing about Dean being chosen as the peffect vessel I doubt they are ignoring this bit of canon.

He is still very primed to do his self sacrifice move. They have set it up for two seasons to revolve around Mary. Spoilers suggests she stays in the AU so it may be loss/alienation of her affection rhat is the trigger plus the clusterFCK world ending scenarios at home that push him much like season 9 with the MoC and Abbadon.

Dean is already practically catatonic and Sam looked guilty as hell at the end. I still can’t decide if the whole tunnel thing was supposed to signal something or was just lazy Dumb on Cue writing to get all the characters together at the end. I also can’t decide what the hell was going on with Dean and Mary at the end. Mary seemed very subdued (though I suppose that’s Mary when you think about it; she’s a very deadpan character) when Sam showed up, but even so, she looked happier than Dean, who looked so done with it all. Even when Lucifer showed up, Dean’s main reaction was a head-cock, like, “Did I just see that or was I the only one who saw it?” He was completely messed up after Sam, just stumbling through the landscape.

I think Dean’s getting permanently punchy from all the blows of late, especially since Death basically laid it out that he can’t die, so that out’s out, too.

I can totally see Rowena opening up the Cage and summoning Michael out of sheer desperation and moxie. Rowena on the side of Good is far scarier and more fun than Rowena kinda, sort out for herself. She means well, but boy, does she suck at heroing.

Yeah. Dean is so messed up and be has been metaphorically dancing with Death knowing that she has told him that as far as she is concerned he is necessaty and has wwork to do AND she gave him a baby sitter. … whicn Dean full well understood even if Sam did not.

Still does not change the fact that he is done with it all.

I think it was deliberate and it centers around Dean being the leader of TFW. He is,falling apart and they have too. They have lost their cohesive center and it showed. It was not just the writing. Look at the staging. Totally ragtag. No precision. No securing perimeter. Np recognition of an obvious trap.

Gabriel is a limp archangel. Cas may be corrupted by the empty guy. If he really were back to military Cas TFW wouldn’t he have noticed Dean was off and tsken charge. Sam was full of hubris and on on something???? No leadership whatsoever. The two muggkes tried their best .

Last season Ketch chose to hunt with Dean because he knew Dean was the best and we know that Ketch was impressed because Dean’s criticism of him hurt.. This season Ketch noted Dean was off his game. It was obvious that it was his mental state. Tbis week he looked like a zombie., barely functioning. It is deliberate. Hard to say whether it is just mental illness.

It occurred to me that Dean prayed in 13:1 like Sam prayed in 11:1 so Dean may be getting communications from Michael. Maybe he is in his dreams affecting his, sleep. And we will see it in a flashback. There are hints he is not sleeping. He apparently put together the man cave in record time and did the sticky bites whilst Sam slept.

I did wonder a bit whom Jessica was supposed to be babysitting. I mean, Sam gets up to some antics, but TPTB of the SPNverse don’t seem to get themselves in a wad over it the way they do Dean. They seem to expect Dean (or natural consequences) to control Sam and worry far more about Dean when he goes off the rails.

My take was that now Billie saw the big picture she saw possible fates and at the least she understood Dean had to survive to save the world (by being Dean!Michael). She also saw that he was broken and did not really much want to go on. So Jessica was literally Dean’s baby sitter to make sure he made it past the red haired witch and whatever else he would throw himself at because she knew he had to survive.

Ya know, it seems like they are doing a lot of dropping of potential storylines… poisoned bullet, the entity in charge of the Empty, Asmodeus – not dropped necessarily but wrapped up in the cheapest most boring way. All that build up… unless in Asmodeus case that was a trick. Tho you would think Gabe would know. Anyhoo (as a certain Archangel is fond of saying), those are the ones off the top of my head. I’m sure there are more.

Dean is letting things get the better of him. Definitely spiraling. As you said Ketch even called him on it. Lack of stealth… I only saw one hand signal from Dean and that was when they initially walked into the tunnel. I thought it interesting he let Sam take the lead. When does Dean ever do that? Dean didn’t even put in his own two cents. Just slung the glow stick around his neck and off they all went.

Raise your hand if you think Lucifer’s deal with Sam was a tad more complicated than we were allowed to see. The deal we heard was pretty straight up and logical given the situation. Why would Sam be so ashamed? At least this way Sam had the chance to be the one to warn them about Lucifer rather than he being killed again for good and letting Lucifer just surprise the camp. Bueller? Anyone?

I think Sam’s guilt is as simple as his previous pronouncements, loud and clear, that he would rather diiiieeeee than ever say yes to Lucifer in any way and…well…when push shoved, he made a deal.

I think Asmodeus was a victim of being really unpopular, as well as being the last gasp of a really unpopular storyline. You think he went out with the whimper? Remember Dagon? Nobody seems interested in seeing him come back, so he probably won’t. People mention Crowley’s numerous resurrections, but that was because he was a very popular character and it’s not as though all those fake-outs did his character any favors, anyway.

I think Dean’s just tired. Who wouldn’t be after all he’s been through, even just recently? Kripke claimed, way back in season four, that he didn’t have Dean falling apart more than he was already because it would be “boring.” But guess what they had Sam doing in seasons six, seven, eight and nine? So, I guess it’s Dean’s turn.

It was so sad really … that horrible hubris dream of Sam being the BDH and Dean eating the pizza to the sad reality of how incompetent TFW is without Dean in form.
Boy total schadenfreude situation for Sam. It makes me think that all of the Sam hype from rthe golden years was demon manipulation and branding. He is kind of a loser. Smart, spoiled, stick up his ads but not that soecial…. and Sam.

That was a hot mess.

Interested to see the finale. Hope it is not too crazy quilt.

Hope Singer does not kill any interesting ideas for season 14.

Conference chatter suggests at least season 15 because season 14 is not the final.

How long can it go. It is the only show to perform. Apparently Jared recently said his tv bro reinvigorated his interest in the show. Sounds like J2 is invested for the long haul.
CW needs it to anchor programming.

Once they finish Dean’s heroic tragic fall and redemption arc… They can be done with the big original mytharc. Then what.
That is a big worry wirh this crew IMO.
They will copy another popular franchise.

Zombie apocalypse? Revanent?

People say they just want motw but that will get old fast. There has to be a good mytharc and they ruined monsters and MoL already.

Spinning wheel rift I guess. But that is the WS mytharc.

I presume season 14 will be Dean!Michael aftermath and heaven. Season 15 maybe Dean redemption/healing if they don’t cram it into season 14. Plus ?.

Bring Crowkey back however he is so nice it completely throws everyone off. He cooks and cleans…. It is like that horrible idea for a,sitcom on Seinfeld in which some guy is forced to Butle for Jerry.

I would be extremely surprised if season 14 is the last. I’m pretty sure they’d have announced it by now. In fact, I’d be unsurprised if we got an announcement two seasons out. That usually seems to be the case with their genuinely successful shows.

After that? Who knows? But I think it’s significant that Ackles and his wife have found a way for her to come up to Vancouver for periods of time, on top of Padalecki saying he’s feeling reinspired. That sounds like Law&Order fourth wind. Surely, the CW (and WB) is contemplating going for that shiny 20-season record at this point, even if it’s still just a fantasy at this point. Ackles himself has talked about passing Gunsmoke.

I don’t know what they would do, but there are possibilities. I guess they can do some stuff with the multiverse, though they really need to tighten up the writing on that. Jack and Mary should stick around. Castiel obviously isn’t going anywhere. Next season ought to be about Crazy!Michael interacting with Crazy!Dean while fixing Heaven. I’m sure they could do an entire season just with the pagan gods. They could also do something really creepy in mytharc with the idea of creatures like the one in “Safe House,” who exist in the walls between the alt-verses.

As for MOTWs, there will always be those. There’s a metric ton of untouched lore still out there. You ever look into the Icelandic Hidden People? Creeeeeepyyyyy. Trying to work on a story about that. Oh, my.

Crazy michael and crazy Dean has kegs fir miles. And the heaven sub plot and the fact that every single character has mental health issues gives me high hopes for this. But….
Have you met Singer, the killer of dreasms and Dean storylines….

He did say they were taking a risk or somesuch…

Their track record on monsters us hit or miss.
Their track record on demigods is terrible save their few early made up motw.

And their track record with Cas storylines is abominable. When they are done with Dean’s arc….
Yeesh. Cas’ turn.

I have really liked what they did with Dean’s arc and they did do a proper Sam redemption arc… lol …..

Yep. Significant that he seemingly has less control over inhibiting change. .I was surprised to see how much alone time dean received and how Deancentric the storyline was.
In particular, I was not sure they would run with the firewall thing and they did.

Just thinking. What if whatever happens to Dean at the end of the season and doesn’t have anything to do with the battle for Earth. Or what if Billie offers a way to satisfy the Cosmic Consequence bill that becomes due and Dean agrees to be the Winchester who pays it Or Billie offers a solution to AUMichael but there’s a price Dean will have to agree to pay.

The one big hint we have about how it all comes about is that a decision one brother makes in 13.21/2 permanently affects the other brother. Well, Sam made a decision, so I guess the one affected by it will be Dean.

I thought that was the synopsis for 13.22 which referenced what happens in 13.22 and not 13.21. I guess we’ll have to see. If it is referencing 13.21 as the decision made then perhaps the idea of the deal being more complicated than we know could be valid.

The synopsis of 13.22 is pretty vague. It doesn’t say whether the decision is made in that episode, but it does mention consequences that 13.21 simply didn’t have time to show. At the very least, Sam has some explaining to do.

I suppose Lucifer being Lucifer sets off chain of events or simply the emotional toll is building upon Dean and there were already cracks galore….
There promo spoilers are terrible so I never pay that much attebtiom…

Newest silly spec….
Rowena despite well actual show text is not on the up and up and turns Dean into Feeergus. ???? Because that suit is exactky what a 17thc Scotsman would wear. No he would wear something closer to that BBC show with the sexy shirtless guy…. Poldark. Or highlander or
Whatever that bodiceripper time travel show is Outlander? Not Sherlock wear.

I was kicking around speculation on WFB and someone there brought that up too. :). Interesting but how would that be gamechanging? What would Jensen playing FergusDean storyline be. Could we be putting too much into the outfit? Is this non Dean never going to change his clothes?We came up with a few more I can’t remember off hand. One I do recall tho is that Mary got pregnant with Dean before John dies. So there is an AUDean but I forget how they suggested it plays into nonDean. I asked for out of the box thinking… 🙂

Or they aren’t. The only thing to really go by is that hat and that style hat has been worn in our lifetimes. Hell Jensen wore a similar (tho updated) looking hat to a con once. Maybe we’re are trying too hard to date this clothing is what I’m thinking?

Did you guys see the sneak peek? Everybody pretty much called Mary’s “sacrifice” of insisting she will stay to help the people in the AU. The expression on Deans face after she said I understand what you boys have been though BUT… did she just dismiss the fact that Sam died in the effort?! Not only that but he made a deal with and is now indebted to Lucifer? Did she just minimize the pain and horror Dean went through helplessly watching his little brother be slaughtered in front of his eyes? To borrow a quote from Dean: “OMG that Mary chick! What a bitch!” In that second my heart broke for these two fictional characters. Poor Dean. By season end he will probably be begging for someone, anyone, any THING to take him over and release him from all this agony.

Well… there could be good AU angels that folks Dean!Michael when he defeats AU Michael. That is the easiest solution.

The empty only is a story if the crazy guy is in Cas or if they want to resurrect anyone else. Orherwise it ruins a very nice episode although Mischa was paid twice.

I have a crazy idea that everyone has been having mental health issues this,season because crazy Michael has been broadcasting his brainwaves out and it is infecting everyone. I mean everyone is messed up.

CC, this is for you first (because you brought up that maybe it was Crazy Michael in The Empty (who looked like Castiel). That is an idea I had not thought of.

Mischa when he was playing Lord of the Empty (or whatever he is called) was doing a weird accent. And I think he was mimicking somebody famous. Do you (or anybody else here) have any idea who the hooey he was imitating? It drove me NUTS. (Now if Lord of the Empty was Michael I will be very happy with that. Because that dude truly ‘was’ weird and otherworldly.

Hey in July here in NM is the Roswell UFO festival. I am trying to ‘push’ hubby into going. Has anybody here ever been? (BTW I do not believe in UFOs as they are being presented in the media, there are too many sightings.) It ‘looks’ like fun but I don’t know. HE says he think Roswell in July would be AWFUL, “I” say it’s our 39th wedding anniversary and I would like to discuss going (I mean, if it IS a hot summer, fine we’ll stay in the mountains, but it sounds like a truly ‘kicky’ thing to do.) if only to celebrate.

Advanced Thanotology was such a good episode… so important. Why the hell was the crazy whackadoodle oil entity in there.

Crazy right.

Crazy….

What if That was crazy Michael rhat escaped the cage and just slipped over to the empty for peace and quiet which is what you would do after being trapped in the cage for however many hundred of years it has been in cage time with Lucifer talking non-stop.

Then Cas wakes up and starts yapping. Cas whom he has not seen since he threw flaming holy oil on him…

And he decides to have some fun. He makes Cas a new body. He knows how because he saw Chuck do it. And he hides quietly inside Cas or maybe Cas is trapped quietly inside him as per Lucifer and Michael knows how to completely mask his aura. Lol canon means there is always a way.

I just ask myself why was that perfect episode marred by that weird interlude. Is it really a new character or is it one we know masquerading as some crazy new character. And who has been repeatedly described as crazy.

Dumb idea right.

It is just that at the beginning of the season a reoccurring theme was masks and hidden personas. We saw it repeatedly in more episodes and through Asmodeus’ powers and more recently through Gabriel/Loki. They never do that without a big payoff. I know some people think Naomi was suspicious… meh… not big enough.

Sure they can use it,for shock and awe with Dean at the end but we are already spoiled on that.

Hmmm… thinking there will be a Cas reveal and it has to tie in to everything or else it is just one more plot in a season with too many damned plots.

Hey guys, kicking around something here… If I remember correctly (and if I’m wrong there goes my idea). Wasn’t it Deans idea to make the blood oath with Billie back in the secret gov prison? Even tho he didn’t kill her there is still the horrible, as yet unexplained, undetermined Cosmic consequence hanging over their heads. What if the cosmic consequence falls on Dean. It was his idea after all. Billie still has this threat in her footlocker of Death. :). She hasn’t spoken of it nor has anyone mentioned it. Why? Will it somehow become pivotal at the end of the season? They’ve brought up the whole butterfly effect again. Why? Perhaps at the end (episode 23) in order to save Dean Billie uses the cosmic consequence or maybe the cosmic consequence just goes into effect at his death? Or maybe the cosmic consequence sticks it’s nosey nose into and gets all jumbled up in the final confrontation with AUMichael. Maybe Dean twists time and that is John/Dean we are seeing? I’m probably not explaining this well. I just think it’s interesting that there’s been zero mention of cosmic consequences (- I can’t stop wanting to typeface/keep thinking of one of Jensen’s brews offered at FBBC – Cosmic Cowboy – I’m not even a beer drinker and I want to try every damn one they’ve got down there, they make them look/sound so Good!). There was the recent talk of messing with the timeline of ones death and the butterfly effect. We know Dean is up for pretty much anything as long as it saves family/friends/people and it is only he that gets hurt. Also not saying these would come into play but we are still dealing with alternate universes.

So thinking in these terms – what or who would Dean become. CC what do you think? How do you see this working with Dean taking on Michael and all surviving. Do they meld together and reset some things? Is the pic of set they let out just a – what’s the word you use? – a McGuffin (McMuffin. Now I’m hungry…). A McMuffin just to throw us off thinking it is in the past? Curious to see what you come up with. Didn’t Singer say it would be a Gamechanger? A risk? Well thinking along these lines – I’d say risky and gamechanger would/could fit.

They have set up Dean!Michael.
Yeah Billie said,she was owed a,Winchester and yeah killing a reaper should have een been bad or is it. Dean killed Tessa alaistar killed one.
Rowena just killed a bunch. Not sure the one car killed means a lot.
What Billie used to be about is this. She liked rules. DEAN broke rules. She did not like it. DEAN killed Death. That pissed her off. So she decided she would get him or a Winchester when the opportunity presented itself and it did on a platter handed to her by DEAN. Winchesters defy the natural order. Fits my theory that Dean messed up the world by showing up at Stull and stopping the Apocalypse/caging Michael/saving Sam. Cas stopped her from getting a Winchester.
When Billie became Death she saw the big picture and she learned something about Dean. He is necessary. It is why Old Death tried to reach Dean about the natural order. He tried to get Dean to understand that PROBLEMS ARISE WHEN SOMEONE DOES NOT DIE WHEN THEY ARE SUPPOSEF TO and later in s 11 he gives Dean his scythe and demands he kill Sam at great risk to himself. Why? The only thing I can tbink of is that the natural order demands it

So Billie now sees what old DEATH saw and realized that DEANhas something to do and I think Jessica was there to keep him alive so he would be around to so it. He has to be there to say yes to our Michael and fix everything thst went out of whack.
And defend our universe from AU Michael.

So no. Billie is no the threat.. Dean and Death still have a thing of sorts. .RESPECT.
IMO.
Maybe he dies for a hot minute and sees dad bit she will bring him back but that like a lot …
Or she takes him to Michaeland Michael resurrects him.
He is suicidal After all. People are devating me on previousky about this but the guy committedcsuicide in AT, admitted he thought It was a one way ticket, and since when did he start carrying a suicide kit around. Definition of suicidal.

It wasn’t what happened to all these people you named who have killed a reaper. They didn’t do a blood oath with the reaper they killed like Sam and Dean did. I don’t remember ever seeing anything on the show that there were consequences for just killing a reaper. It’s all about the breaking of the agreement with her.

That whole episode where Dean killed himself to find and communicate with the ghosts was poorly written. I do not believe Dean foresaw the opportunity to use the situation to commit suicide. I think he really intended to have Sam bring him back. Then he met with Billie and he still maintained he needed to return until she beat him down with that conversation. I think he was deep in the mindset of “F it. What’s the point anymore” and she really used that to her advantage. Is it possible Dean was carrying around the kit all this time, entertaining the idea? Sure. But I still think he was thinking of the hunt and the quickest solution for their predicament. Even tho it was written soooo badly.

I think AT is a pretty good episode except for the batshit crazy empty stuff. I think it gives us major insight into the mytharc, Dean’s fatal flaw, the serious state of his mind and mental issues and the fact that he is utterly broken, dealing with Apocalypse PTSD courtesy of watching Mary disappearng through a rift with Lucifer,… add to that we get the reboot of Dean’s special relationship with Death, more lessons,on the natural order, fate, Dean having work to do which is essentially a reiteration of Chuck telling Dean he’s in charge/the firewall.
They packed a helluva lot into very little.
Of course I only watch the one time these days.

I think the blood oath may have lost its power when she died or she may still make a request. She needs him to do something only he can do. I suspect that is Dean!Michael presumably to fight AU Michael in an Apocalypse and fix heaven, both of which are needed for the natural
order. Maybe he needs to let Sam die. I mean Death seenedct to want Sam dead in 10.

I think it was a crappy thing for Dean to do to Sam. Hey, I’m going to kill myself but you can bring me back if you do everything perfectly. I can ‘see’ that Dean found a way to communicate in the Veil and it ‘is’ a useful thing to do. But you don’t just DUMP something like that onto somebody else. Especially in the middle of a hunt.

I keep thinking about CC’s idea for Michael!Dean and what “I” now think is Dean has been told that as things stand AU!Michael wins both on AU!Earth and ‘our’ Earth as ‘things stand now’ and that Sam and Mom and everybody in AU!Earth is going to die. THAT is why he did not want Sam to go with him the last time. Dean intervenes and gets killed and Billie reaps him at the moment of Death. He ‘then’ says YES with his last breath to Michael and Michael goes to ‘finish’ off all the problems. I see Michael!Dean kill AU!Michael; I see Michael then leaving Lucifer in the AU to rule hell and Jack on the throne of heaven and showing him HOW to fix AU!Earth. Ketch throws the ‘angel-de-vesseling bomb but that only works when there is still a person inside; Dean is in Heaven. Michael powers up the angels, brings back lots of dead angels from the Empty. Heaven is now A-OK. AU!Earth is A-OK. But Sam of course won’t sit still for there not being a Dean in his life and they are trying to bring Dean back to life and put him back into his own body. Whole season revolves around that arc.

Normally, I’d agree it was a crappy thing to do, except that Sam has contributed heavily to Dean’s poor self-esteem and suicidal state of mind all the way up through season 11. So, I saw it more as chickens coming home to roost for Sam.

As I’ve noted before, Dean is a highly skilled shaman. He’s done spirit walks in the past like this and come back. Sam has, too, just not as many, and rarely alone. Yes, Dean is cavalier about them, but he’s also cavalier about both his life and his most specialized skills (like angel whispering). It’s totally in-character for Dean to be like this.

The difference between Dean and Max is that nobody in Max’s family was running him down and essentially saying “Why don’t you just kill yourself?” the way Dean always felt John implied and Sam has outright said multiple times. So, Sam, at the least, needs to take some responsibility for Dean’s depression and stop railing at Dean about it (even if you could criticize someone out of a deep depression).

Meld. Maybe…. not billie’s style though.. . That would be their negotiation.
Billie cares about the natural order.
Death has tried to teach Dean that things need to die when it is their time and showed him what happens when they don’t.
He has asked him to PERMANENTLY kill Sam at risk to his own person.
The only thing Death needs from Dean is for him to let Sam die in my opinion
Sam is not supposed to live past the Apocalypse I suspect.
How the show deasls wirh this….. If they deal with this…
That is the logical assumption from DEATH’s previous actions.
And Death believes she is owed a Winchester.
I do not think she wants Dean. She may have just waited until he owed her tbis knowing his m.o. sooner or later he would pull is suicide stunt. 3 TIMES IN THE LAST THREE YEARS!!! 3 times that he has killed himself as a maneuver. Gott im Himmel. And there is an entire board of people who think I am nuts for calling him suicidal.

They must be closer bingo stans I guess and serving Sam is the biggest honor so yeah Dean shoot up.

I know you like how she was written/acted to show how messed up she was/is. I get that.

But when she said, I can’t lose another boy…she already ‘lost’ her two boys. They are men. Jack is childlike in many ways; I think ‘he’ thinks of Dean and Sam as his brothers (and Castiel as his ‘true’ father). She relates to Jack as a POWERFUL child who takes her judgement and advice. She has a little kid to ‘raise’ (knowing that HELLO he is still less than one year old) and that is what she wants.

EVEN if I get why she is messed up I ‘still’ don’t like how she relates to Sam and/or Dean. She will never see them as more than strangers who were once her children. Never. So Dean got to tell her off because the family curse was HER curse. She may not have remembered meeting Dean Van Halen in either 1973 or 1978 (and btw I think Dean was conceived in the back seat of the Impala — just by the ‘fond memory’ look she had at the backseat of the Impala) so Michael wiped “Dean” out of her memories. But she sure as heck remembered Azazel (YOU!) so she should have done SOMETHING to ward their home, at least tried. she knew the date of her parents’ deaths for cry-eye.

She will just never relate to her sons as her ‘sons’ she KNOWS they are her sons but they are not her ‘kids.’ It’s a tragedy. I get that. Both sides of the coin tragedy.

But I still don’t like that she just can’t be around them. That is what it all turns to for me.

I think one needs to put oneself in her shoes. AND realize she is a Winchester and has both the Best and worst traits if both her son’s. She is as great and as horrible as they are. It is a,double standard at play.

It is perfectly understandable for her to need spacee to clear her head (so very SAM) and for her to hunt as a means of dealing with her emotions (so very DEAN) or for her to want to wor with the BMOL to rid the world of monsters so that her boys do not have to throw their lives away as penance for what her actions wrought (SAM) or to recklessly sacrifice herself to save her son’s from Lucifer without a thought for herself (DEAN).

The writers made her motivations clear and the did not rush her story. In my opinion the problem is that the fans either are mommies or love the boys too much. Or they themselves are unable to allow any character to be written on an equal basis to the Winchesters except for Cas. The writers have Mary full Winchester status immediately. And they spelled out rhat she had culture shock, emotional issues and extreme guilt over they way her son’s lives turned out because of her choices. She tried to fix that by working with the BMOL. She tried to fix that by trapping Lucifer in the AU which was the ultimate self sacrifice. Now she is working out her issues by parenting Jack prior to a family reunion.

Samantha has done a fantastic job. The writers have done a fantastic job. Ot only in giving us a believable parent to Dean and Sam and a warrior Winchester hunter but also in using her to explore the origins of Dean’s complex fatal flaw that drives his self sacrificial save family and/or get a win m.o.

It has really been brilliant. It tells me that Dabb learned something really valuable from Jeremy Carver… character arcs drive the show. Man he knocked these put of the park.

I am totally disgusted with fans who tbink all characters have to revolve around Dean and Sam. That is the hallmatk of really bad writing.

Okay….. comparison. Dean spends 1 year in purgatory and he has PTSD and trouble readjusting l.
Dean spends 40 years in Hell and he has trouble readjusting.
Sam spends time in the cage …. he has PTSD and Hellpain and needs angel intervention.
NEITHER LOST 30 YEARS CHRONOLOGICALLY. OR CAME BACK TO FIND THEIR CHILDREN FULLY GROWN INTO STRANGE MEN.

yet Mary is not allowed any time to readjust. She is just supposed to behave exactly the way she did as a teenager Mary or in Dean’s menory…

I like Mary, but I really wish the show would stop coming up with stupid reasons for separating her from her sons. It’s Syncopated Vanishing Castiel Syndrome all over again. I get that means she’s here for the long haul, but still, they could plot this better.

Then again, the head showrunner is Bob “Any Dean storyline can’t last longer than eight episodes before I get nervous and pull the plug, but Sam’s storylines can last forever” Singer.

Her motheting of Jack makes her even more hated.
Yet if she stayed in the bunker or went on hunts then it would not be J2.

Well singer apparently thinks they are really doing something very daring or bold or what ever so it must mean Dean actually having a storyline thst lasts until the mid-season break. I am sure rhat is only because episode 300 falls late in the season
He must have insisted Sam kill someone which is why they threw in this late onset PTSD revenge story for him.

Singer doing something very daring or bold that involves Jensen? Get ready to be thrilled and excited with Jensen’s performance but don’t get used to it. Three episodes max. I’m not getting sucked into another Year of the Dean-mon promotional lie-fest again.

They used her to replace Sam to trigger Dean’s family loss emotional baggage that feeds into his tragic flaw. So all season long he was falkingcapart because he was missing mother Mary and going further off of the reservation until he gets,her back, he gets,everyone back hime safely and evwrything is beautiful and they g o on the best hunt of their life, he and his brothers, and Dean dares to hope of a time in the sun without hunting because his family is whole and he is whole.

Then Sammy is taken by Lucifer and it all goes sideways and his tragic flaw manifests in full its full fatal glory and he falls with a rezounding thud, sadly without the accompanying rock music… both Greek tragedy and modern tragedy and definitely Supernatural tragedy. Call me Cassandra, Castiel’s Cat, the FCKing Dabb Whisperer because this is the story that they wrote and ate writing and they have summarized it in a series of poignant vignettes that more than make up for the bizarre spectacle of that anticlimactic badly edited fight scene. No I am not talking about the cheesiest freeze frame in history although I appreciate the Demonic Dean homage. Dean’s face when he has made up his mind. Michael’s face ,when he knows he has his weapon. Cas’ face when he knows all is lost. Dean!Michael with wings. Human Dean!Michael clearly injured. The slow motion emphasid on Human Dean!Michael falling. Human Dean!Michael saying We did it reminiscent of Dean’s line before he died and became Deamonic Dean. Angelic Dean!Michael thanking Dean for the suit clearly malevolent. Cas crying face so like the Greek tragedy mask.

For me they. Have made a serious attempt to take Dean’s storyline and elevate it to greek tragedy.. And they succeeded.

Still cryimg.

Will write something long for web.

Those previously folk..
One or 2 have good ideas and are mature but most are like the imbd people who cannot tolerate the fact that canon exists and hate you for replying with canon. Except there are arcane rules for reporting you.

I have a weird feeling AU Michael will be wearing JDM since KEVIN bomb. It is a demoralizing psychological warfare dick move.

They are so weird about pacing. I thought for sure that this AU thing would not have legs. Not at all sure about that now because apparently Kevin gave Michael the means to cross over and he can do it while our heroes are over there.

3 episode left?

Next week they crossover.

Then Sam/Jack/Lucifer get a special episode

Then they returm to Apocalypse Now and shit happened, shit went down, Rowena is dead or traumetized, Sam is dead or graveky wounded…

Does not matter. Circumstances will be such rhat Dean will manage to make a deal with Michael. For all we know Michael has been in his head all season since his prayer just the way Lucifer spoke to Sam in 11 post prayer.

So …. random thought. I realized that Dean prayed in13:1 just like Sam did in 11:1 and extrapolated from there. Coukd,Micharl be speaking to Dean. Sam just had a couple of lousy dreams. Nothing special about those visions except that poor Sam thought they were from God.

Someone elsewhere said No because Rowena fixed the cage. Huh.
How would Rowena fix the cage. She warded the helll out of it I suspect as best she could given her capabilities at the time… and yet Crowley managed to outmaneuver her so she was not magicalky omnipotent. Maybe Crowkey messed up her warding too. And given the existence of LOL canon… this is a minor quibble.

These writers love their flashbacks. They have already overused them to death. I honestly can see them show us this in flashback for shock and awe

Then I had a crazier idea…..
maybe crazy Michael was that thing in the empty and he escaped the cage went to the empty,, resurrected Cas and has been hiding in him on the down low. I
mean why did I have to watch that weird scene with Cas and some crazy black goo thing
FCK if I know why they threw that in there. Because he is crazy ass Michael!! Which totally explains the weird looks and the crazy old fadhioned duds in rhe spoiler photos.

Apparently singer is on record saying they are taking a big risk. Gag.
For Singer a big risk is making any storyline about Dean. This season has been pretty Deanish from my persoective but then I have my tragic flaw/ psychological take which meshes with what I am seeing on screen. I literally predicted the meltdown in Advanced Thanotology the week before it happened complete with the suicide to save family and Dean saying he just needed a win. It was obvious that was where his arc was going. Still is.

A big risk might be for Dean to make a deal meaning he would allow Michael to timeshare for the long haul. I think at this point Dean would negotiate. We saw him negotiate with Death. And Amael already introduced the idea of a,quid pro quo arrangement. Dean lets Michael do what Michael needs to do when Michael needs to do it in exchange for what Dean wants.

Latest promo suggests bloody Sammy. Always a good trigger plus possible invasion Apocalypse Now here with no one capable to defend our world. Jack has mojo but he is too innocent, too easily crushed, has to deal with daddy and may become tainted or crippled by grief/power/Lucifer. I am not sure he can do it because the focus is not on him especially end of season. He may save Sam from dearh by killing Lucifer but Sam is badly wounded?

It is hard to say with this whack-a-mole plotting and too many characters.

Oh… there was one kind of academic hint suggesting Dean!Michael. According to Wiki in Jewish tradition the killer of Gog and Magog is the Messiah. Some scholars think Old Testament references to the Messiah actually refer to Michael because he does a lot of the stuff Jesus does… like defeat the devil. So might explain that weird Gog and Magog scene and why Dean got both kills.

And there was a deliberate Mention of Michael during the exorcism. I watch a lot of horror movies and I have never heard him mentioned in an exorcism.

And the sudden heaven needs a full powered archangel plot. These are 3 Big things plus just all of the Apocalypse stuff they have been laying down.

I do not get how Loki or ghost John are more believable than Dean!Michael. And I still do not get the Death thing either because Billie is Death and unless Dean is in a suit that is not black without a skull tipped cane I think that is baloney.

Are you thinking AU world will end this season? Sorry if I’m misunderstanding if you didn’t. Also sorry I can’t put you out of your misery. Do you remember that panel where either Dabb or Singer or both said something about the AU world having a lot of legs (for want of a better word) – that they would be able to get a lot of stories out of it – kinda giving the impression it would be around for awhile. Like next year. Unfortunately. Also don’t forget – isn’t Wayward supposed to be predicated on the rift being located there? Or something like that. AUKara crossed over didn’t she? And who knows what else. I’m starting to lose track with all these storylines… Speaking of Wayward – when will we know if it has been picked up for series? I’m hoping it isn’t for the simple reason that I don’t want to see any writers… bail on our show leaving open any slots the NepDuo can slide into.

I thought I read somewhere that Wayward Sisters was not picked up. Or was that speculation? IF it is picked up would you think it should be after Supernatural on whatever day of the week they put it (IS there a day of the week that SPN has not been assigned?) because boy I don’t know if I would like that.

I ‘am’ pleased however to see that SPN is ‘again’ the #2 show on the network. Golly 13yr in and they STILL make the cut.

Whatever happens to Dean will be in the last five minutes of the show. I wonder if Fandom will be able to figure it out between now and then or Show will keep us in the dark until those final moments. Or Jensen won’t be able to stand it and tip his hand. 🙂

I have an image of ‘everybody’ thinking AU!Michael killed Dean but it was a foolie. The two armies are about to face off and then a ‘new’ BIG rift opens and Dean sticks his head thru and says,

Hello, boys, it’s Uncle Bingo come to collect the dues.

(Jack Nicholson as The Joker in Tim Burton’s Batman)

I love that line and Dean expressed his ‘love’ for ‘my man Jack’ in Asylum.

I would love if the show could get a bunch of angels (whom I liked) that got killed off in previous seasons, if only for 1-2 sec of screen time, like Anna, Balthazar, SAMANDIRIEL, etc. IF Michael cleans out The Empty from all the dead angels. AND if part of Rowena getting Dean to Michael (because only ‘she’ can do it) is getting Crowley back.

Hello, boys, it’s Uncle Bingo, come to collect the dues (just before My Man Jack killed a whole bunch of people on the steps to City Hall).

Yeah part of the beauty of it being crazy michael in the empty and he being the one that gave cas a body is he could make some angels and remake Crowley for Rowena if that is what was needed.
But maybe he needs Jack to wake them up.
That sounds like season 14.
But if he is in the empty already he does not need Rowena… so no Crowley:(

Totally Dean!Michael is the cliffhanger. It will be Dean in that weird suit but he will have done something astonishing too and Billie will factor in as well because she knows Dean is important.

Listen my Italian sister from another mother…
I knew Apocalypse after 12:1 and I knew Dean!Michael. I say I saw the thematic subtext but it was a gut instinct too so I was looking for the subtext.

I just have this really strong feeling since 12:1. And man As far as the Dean arc, I have more or less predicted how it would play out. .. it has to be Dean!Michael.

I just do not see them dropping in the heaven needs an archangel storyline for loser Gabriel with almost no grace and less loyalty who is wearing a red shirt. And it surely is not for Lucifer who needs loser tattooed on his forehead. That screams Michael.

Likewise the exorcism. Deliberate unnecessary shout out.

Dean killing both Gog and Magog. Jewish tradition holds this to be the messiah’s role. Some OT references to the Messiah are believed to mean Michael. Obscure yes but so was including Gog and Magog in the first place.

My biggest worry now is that the weirdo in the empty was Michael. I mean it was crazy….. the definition of Cray cray Why else did they waste my time in an otherwise perfect episode. I would love to see crazy Jensen but jeez…. I really really hated that character. And now that this idea crept into my skull when I was trying not to think about the life things I am avoiding… well you know….

As far as John coming back, that’s not really something I want to see. But I guess if JDM is going to return I’d rather see it now than some lame ass “heavenly family reunion” at series end.

And one other thing -tho I don’t see where it would make any sense but- I thought it was weird how they edited it Gabriels fight with Loki and his talk with Sam at the end. I kept thinking maybe Loki did kill Gabriel and he’s now pretending. It would fit in with this whole person/entity not being the actual person/entity thing they’ve got going on this season. This year they’ve made us suspicious about everybody. 🙂

I kinda chewed on that one too but honestly, why? How exciting would that be? If Jensen is just playing John and no Dean around. Do you think Dean will be completely silent voluntarily or otherwise however long they play out this whole Jensen plays a totally different character storyline? If Deans not possessed then he had to have willingly given up control, right? Regaining his agency will probably be the sticking point.

I have started to see fretting about a late seadon Sam and run when they switch in Sam for Dean. Deangirl worry.
And Sam’s tirade did remind me of Sam’s attitude about the time he swooped in and killed the hellhound.
I did think they were setting up a new Apocalypse with Dean!Michael killing Lucifer…. not so sure now. Because it sure looks like they are setting Sam up inexplicably to finally need to kill Lucifer and perhaps the death of … Rowena/Gabriel/… will be the final straw to motivate him.

If so then Maybe AU Michael is not the Macguffin I thought he was. It would apoear thst he has the spell to come here and that may happen whilst the Winchesters are there. Suicide Kevin Tran was brutal.

Still getting on Dean going on a,reckless solo suicide mission leading to Dean!Michael. It is the only constant that make a sense. Too much layered build up in my opinion.

There have been several instances where Sam has asked various characters what revenge felt like or would feel like. Enough for me to go “Bzah?” each time he has. To see how they would feel after the fact or what they think? Sorry not making much sense. Mega headache. (Why are you on the IPad then, you ask? Cause it hurts either way and it’s somewhat of a distraction. Oh and shut up. I answer. ;). ). Sam is normally the one who wants to give someone a pass but it almost seems like he’s trying to get the feel of how he’s going to deal with it (psychologically, ethically, morally…) after the deed. I just think that if Lucifer is hurting or killing Dean or others or in the act of committing some evil at that moment then yes, Sam would. One on one just in the same room and the opportunity presents itself? Dean could do it, no problem. He might feel bad about it after (depending on who it was) but he’d shove it down and deal. Sam? He’d give in to his better nature. It just seems like Sams “trying on” revenge. Does this make sense cause I feel like I just typed “Jelly blue…dvhikn, killing, and then he would vdhkb bah!” Which probably made more sense than my actual words.

Yesterday All in the Family was on TNT and in the beginning Dean/Sam say ‘something’ to Lucifer and he snaps his fingers and nothing happened. Chuck said, Oh I protected you two because he is apt to act out (or something like that) and I have noticed since then that Lucifer has not actually tried to ‘magically’ kill them. Does anybody else remember if Lucifer ‘has’ tried to do the snap the fingers thing at all in Season 12 or 13?

Also Amara showed up at the LoL at the end of 11 and burned out all the warding. We all have mentioned that numerous entities have just walked into the Bunker and we all say, what about the warding? And when I saw that (it was when she kicked the World’s Greatest Dad coffee cup off the table) I realized that the joint wasn’t warded anymore.

So I think ‘somebody’ who knows what they are doing should ward the place.

Oh yes. But I do not see that happening with Gabriel. It is Cas… he is the one to watch…. And obviously Asmodeus used it a lot… but I do not think Asmodeus is Cas. Because if anything Cas is harboring the entity.

But who knows ….. It is whack-a-mole plotting. Whack a mole characters.

Dean too. They may do a hidden character thing wirh Dean at the end. Then presto blammo … Dean wears a whacky suit. Flashback reveal set to Tarantino guitar music.

Early season Sam was all about the revenge. He started the series only tobrevenge Jess NOT to look for dad NOT to save people and hunt things NOT because they had work to do.
So finally the reboot has caught up to him and he gets his little arc beyond being Sammy homemaker.
That is okay. .. ummm… I guess.

It is jarringky weird after season 11. The writing let the character down and jared’s acting. Jensen’s face would have told us exactly how Dean felt about having to work with Kucifer to sace the world. Hell look at Jensen’s acting throughout Gabriel’s big killing adventure. DEAN was oh so over it before it started. Sadly Jared dud not give us that so we all have whiplash now… And why now when the world is at stake. Can you not wait until after everything else goes down. YSW.

Okay then.

I knew that car conversation meant something…. blah blah blah Sam+Lucifer. Now we know what.
I guess Sam did look sort of lethal in the hotel… kind of…

Writers these days with their lack of pacing, LOL canon and odd characterizations.

There is far too little texting and murder for my taste. What this show needs is more testing and murder…
And more torture… if you are going to riff on Tarantino use Stuck in tne middle with you for crying out loud. That was actually Tarentino being original. An rear for an ear I always say….
And we need more wise sushi chef’s just playing along for some moolah.
I just do not know what is up with these writers.
Zachariah… I have 4 heads and one of them is a lion… unforgettable line in an iconic performance by Kurt fuller. No comparison.
Jensen continues to deliver… no question. In my opinion he was the only reason to watch this week and yes Dean This is all sooo stupid.

And I think Mary and Jack work because those actors bring it too.

Misha is great but had had given up on the weird side eye performance hecwas giving us post resurrection… maybe hecwas told too so when that twist reveals itself we will be so surprised.

Jared is okay I guess. The writing for Sam is better but Jared still plays him like a teen. And I never cotton ‘d on to the bitchfaces.

I miss Crowley. Mark could act. He is akive over there somewhere…. lalalalala

That is a good observation about Sam: the character is being written as if he was stuck in his college days. The character growth (and the only REAL character growth I see is that he embraces hunting now, unless what he is embracing is hunting WITH HIS BROTHER, because the dependency is as strong on Sam’s side now as it is Dean’s) has stalled.

I like that he repeatedly gave Jensen (as well as Jared) credit in general but especially thanking Jensen for the directorial advise. I’ve read somewhere before about how much he wants to get into directing. I’m glad Supernatural has given him these opportunities.

WTF. Dean was tortured in hell for 40 years by Alastair who was Hell’s master torturer… don’t whine to him about your 7 years of torture by legbhorn foghorn.
Meh. Weak Rodriguez rip-off (el Mariachi/Desperado/OuTiM) with a clasdic Tarantino Mexican stand-off.

Poor innocent Jack.

Good observations from Sam and nice speech but he just laid out Dean’s m.o. and judging from Dean’s face and Dean’s psyche, emotions, subtext, plot anvils, my gut, my Italian witch blood….
Nothing is changing.
Odds 100% we are getting Dean!Michael

Sooo…. the Sam Rowena bonding is so Sam is super motivated to kill Luci after he kill a Rowena because suddenly Sammy wants wewenge. Ugh.

Yeah… I know. I did not buy the Sam kills Rowena line. Why? In AT Billie specifically tells Dean about a potential death at the hands of a red haired witch. Then she tells him he has work to do and he is necessary.

In Funeralia Jessica ours herself when Dean is on route to an encounter to meet a red haired witch. She has been on baby monitor duty since AT… specifically it appears she has been watching over Dean. I tbink the Sam kills Rowena line was designed to stip Rowena from killing Dean. Jessica never left Dean’s side and Dean survived his encounter with a red haired witch. Furthermore Rowena will not be killing him from now on.
Dean is smart enough to know this which may be why he blurted it out.
He probably figured it was not in sam’s,fate to he killed by her if it was his death.
Unless of course Lucifer is so soft and cuddly he lets her live.

After having survived The Man Who Knew Too Much and Season 7 Hellpain I just have no interest in seeing more poor saw My suffered horrible torture in he’ll.

You don’t see Dean whining about it.

They better be showing us Crowkey akive and well in Mark Sheppard in AU land or I will be pissed.

I don’t think Billie said that Dean ‘is’ going to be killed by a red-haired witch. She was talking about a death that ‘could’ have happened. Rowena tried to take Dean out in the bar near the LoL and she failed because MoC protected him (I think it was Inside Man episode).

When that scene in AT happened I thought of that ‘earlier’ episode IM. Billie was talking about ‘possible’ deaths. Deaths that could/might happen in different timelines. Now I don’t know if that bunch of shelves were ‘all’ Dean Winchester but the implication was that at least the tall tall shelf that Billie was standing next to was ‘all’ Dean Winchester.

I think Dean gets Rowena’s help to get to Michael by promising her to bring back Crowley. I would love Mark Shepherd back, he could really ‘bring it’ with the crappiest writing and I loved his interactions with everybody. ALSO I have been noting (now that he is gone) how Crowley did not have that ‘short guy’ syndrome. He ‘knew’ he was the equal of any other bull in the room (remember in Sacrifice when he was handcuffed to Dean and said, you got the wrong bull, mate, and then punched Dean. Whereupon Dean punched back, laughed, and said I could do this all day!

ALSO by killing Asmodeus there is now a huge power vacuum in Hell; Dean and Rowena could just walk into Limbo and nobody would try to stop them (not my job, man).

Yes it was a possible death rhat she mentioned to him and then the reaper materializes and continues to materialize in reference to an encounter with a red haired witch. I don’t think Billie woukd bother saying that unless it was important. She is Death. Not one for small talk.
Billie needs him alive. She said as much and why else stick a reaper on him. Dean was meant to die then and having the reaper there interfered with it. Rhat is,my interpretation.

Billie did not directly interfere but she changed things enough to change his fate.
Why because she has seen that he needs to be around to do something big and world saving or else everything is majority f’d.

Maybe. I want Crowley back too.

More likely if she survives next week she really wants Lucifer dead and so does
Dean.

The impression I got was that the entire library of Ws in that section was devoted to his possible deaths, which never stick, and that she was basically taunting him with the possibility of being able to die…maybe…someday…before getting to the point.

Hmmm. Too coincidental. I think Billie is watching out for Dean because she knows he has to do something to save the world and he is broken, pretty much done with It all mentally. It is why Jessica is on baby monitor duty .
I think the red haired witch might have been a real death and Billie wanted it averted so rhat Dean can stop something bad from happening…
Ie. Stop AU Michael by becoming Dean!Michael… now that she is all big picture

Expected more. First watch. Boring episode. ALL THAT just to set up the last episodes that could have been done much more simply. Deans ongoing mental state. Check. Foreshadowing the brothers doom. Check. Adding another Avenger-uh, ally. Check. Could have lived without the ret con for Gabriel as well as his need for revenge.

I’m going to send Dabb my dental bill as I think I may have cracked a tooth from all my jaw clenching during Gabriel’s speech. You – talking to these two who know torture like no others. The only thing I can think of that makes any sense is that after he helped them defeat Lucifer with the Four Horsemen info that he was oblivious to all things Winchester from that point on. Being deep undercover he wouldn’t know what their experiences were. What was inexplicable? Neither Winchester said anything. I think Dean said something in regards to Sam but it was too vague. He needed to hear that torture is not alien to either of them.

And pussy move AUMichael. THAT is how you destroy your enemies? Not quite living up to the badass hype.

Dean’s torture was pre Changing Channels and pre Castiel’s Harrowing of Hell during which time he,reached down and pulled Dean Winchester the Righteous Man who Shed Blood in Hell from Perdition. It had to have been on angel radio.

Thank you.
There are people watching this show that do not see Dean’s building mental state or his obvious symptoms. The guy has been depressed, in despair and suicidal all season, barely holding it together. You just don’t commit suicide in one episide and then miraculously feel better because of beer, burgers and hentai.
You can pretend and jeep going through the motions however the way one feels inside does not change. Especially when no matter what you do the freaking world stays broken.
They do not see why Sam gave him that lecture or why I have been saying he would make this sacrifice all season long.
Of course they also think Dean is going to become Loki now. Lol.
These kinds of people have no business criticizing the writing.
But this Lucifer revenge story for Sam is really a last minute ass pull.

I’m not so sure about my poisoned bullet speculation now tho. ;(. Boo. Dean seemed fine healthwise? Maybe the poison does something else – changes him – which eventually leads to death. No, that sounds stupid. Or then again, maybe. Like slowly attacking his organs? Or heart. I mean, what we’re with those cool black lines if not something like that?

Did this weeks episode seem rather wasteful? Like a ton of exposition that we could have done without? It just feels like the time could have been spent more wisely considering there are only 3 episodes left. Now the Nep Duo will probably be juggling 6 – 7 storylines instead of their usual 4. You know, cause they do such a great job with complicated important episodes. 😉

Disagree about Michael. The Resistance in AU!Earth is not really worth his time because he has his army focused to invade ‘our’ Earth. Just a mop-up.

And Kevin was so OVERWROUGHT by all this he could not ‘wait’ for Bobby to get there in a day or two. In the end he only killed about 4 Resistance fighters in his suicide.

AU!Michael is much more ruthless than Caged!Michael. I would like some rationale for why AU!Michael decided to wipe out humanity. The show just said, they thought the angels were there to HELP humanity against the demons who were unleashed by their Apocalypse but then after Michael killed ‘their’ Lucifer the angels turned on humans. I don’t know WHY. Was ‘that’ Michael doing bad things to people (like Amara) to get GOD to show up?

So now I guess we have our answer regarding that one episode where Cas confronted “Gabriel” in the Gas and Sip. If I remember correctly Cas figured out it wasn’t really the Archangel-because of a loose string on his coat from an earlier tear? When Cas confronted his duplicity Gabriel said or did something (I don’t know what- I just recall the fandom spec afterwards ) to make the viewer question if it was really him. Then again I could be wrong because he did say tortured for 7 years and that probably hits about that time? My head hurts.

It always surprises me when people disagree with me, as I am positive I am always right.

But in that case, Gabriel was a ‘foolie’ devised by Metatron to get Castiel to agree to play the ‘villain’ of the story he was creating.

However once created the phantasm that was Gabriel ‘acted’ as if it were Gabriel until he was ‘called out’ by Castiel in the Gas ‘n Sip. (One last thing, a fully powered up Archangel, which is what “Gabriel” appeared to be, could’ve annihilated all the angels that showed up in the ‘foolie’ IF he was truly Gabriel.

OMG trying to discuss the show with a closet Stan is impossible. They really are not watching the same show. Now it is bad enough that somehow Sam has to gave exactly the same relationship with Cas when we all know that there is this textual tbing called the profound bond and rhat Dean is all kinds of messed up when he bekueces he has lost cas. Even sam acknowledges this.
But you have to either be a special kind of stupid or have really thick Sam goggles to believe that Sam was the one that Crowley had the special relationship with …. Gah. Sam and Crowley want to kill each other and are rivals for dean’s affection.

I understand the need to want to say being around Winchesters makes one better but sorry thus far it is Dean that has thst effect.

There was an outtake scene from The Executioner’s Song in which Castiel AND Crowley were discussing their relationships with Dean. Crowley was really shifty while he was staring at Dean, oh, he’s not my FLAVOR or something.

I am still reeling from all the people telling me how mean DEAN was to yell at Sam and Cas when Dean got back from AU!Earth. Dean was upset, he was venting, he was venting LOUDLY. Big f-ing DEAL.

Crowley was so into Dean. I do not get how people do not see it.
Or how they do not see he is fcking desperate to save Mary.
Suicidal, depressed, despondent, broken.
That like Dean racing recklessly into battle is his m.o. so of course San had noticed it . This had the 4th time by my count that Sam had voiced it out loud.
1. Hellhound episode
2. Love Hurts
3. Advanced Thanatology
4. Gabriel’s big adventure

And guess where he gets it from. MARY. RHE SHE WITCH EVERYONE HATES. That is why she hunted with the BMOL and that is why she pushed Lucifer into the Rift.
Fangirls have the biggest blinders.
Thank the Lord for you all.

I would love a gag scene in which all of Dean’s bros are in a bar drinking forlorn whilst he’s off hunting with his newest one …

Cas, Benny, Crowley, Ketch….

They are all mopey, hissing at each other. He didn’t even like you Ketch. “Hey at least I bones mommy… It is the next best thing”. Crowley would say, ” not really. We shared twins… thrice.” Benny and Cas would look at each other, make a face and Cas would deadpan “Well it would seem we finally agree on something Benjamin”. Benny would respond “I friggin’ hate it when you call me that Halo”. “I know. That is why I keep doing it. We are like the salad dressing made from oil and water that for a not mix well” replies Cas.
Ketch keeps sharpening his knife staring off into space. Crowley stirs the umbrella in his girly drink sneaking peaks at those familiar photos on his phone of the six month party that never ended, the happiest days of his life. Dean was sooo much his flavor.

That aside…. my perfect spin-off would be Dean and these four hunting buddies on hunting trips solo and in different pairings wirh very occasional stops at Sam’s roadhouse for bitchfaces and lectures. Absolute perfection.
I include Letch because the guy can act. Dean and Ketch in AU land was magic and well every scebe with Dean and Ketch was pretty damn good.
These things always have the one guy that is theere that everyone hates.

Dean is on the verge of total collapse and like totally committed suicide recently and admitted he has given up and for a not want to live.
Admittedly they don’t give the guy crazy eyes, or crazy diaskogue or endless scenes of hand grabbing and Hellpain but one has to be as dense as a rock or live under one not to get how messed up Dean is and Jensen pretty much accomplishes a lot of character continuity through full body and face acting.
Sigh… dumdumdumdum

Again sorry for my thumb.
And yet fans have no idea why he is racing through rifts, etc.
1. Losing Mary.
2. Mary pushing Lucifer through rift triggered PTSD issues about losing Sam the same way plus
3. Impending Apocalypse again
4. Fear He cannot keep everyone safe because look what just happened

Add this up and you get depression, despair utter despondency and reckless need to sacrifice himself and make his death count by achieving something good by it, one little win… usually saving family and often taking out a big bad.
Now typically this behavior is triggered by loss of Sam but it can be triggered by blue mood brewing by alienation of affections by Sam. Now we can edit both to Sam/Mary.

I have become obsessed with this idea of Dean slowly dying from that poisoned bullet wound he received in the AU Apocalypse as well as his growing relationship with Billie. It is obvious she has realized that she needs Dean. Dean is necessary to the wellbeing of the world.

So… I half expect Billie to come for Dean as he is closing in on death except she flat out tells him that she is taking him to Michael because the universe needs him and only a fully powered archangel can save him. The way the writing is going I expect them to out Dean as the BDH of this story Having Chuck be God and having God tell Dean that he changed the story in season 5 by going to Stull pretty much makes Dean the pivotal person that stopped the Apocalypse because without Dean Sam would not have jumped in the pit. Having God answer only Dean’s prayer in season 11, having God tell Dean that he was the firewall, having God let Deanbdecide how to end the story with Amara and leaving Dean in charge of the universe… Dean is the big damn hero.

And in Advanced Thanotology we saw rhat Billie totally gets it. So I tbink we might get Billie telling Dean that he is the hero of this story and that he doesn’t get to die because then the universe will die with him. This is about as big as it gets.

This I think is the set-up now. Dean Winchester is dying and so is heaven and the world as we know it is going to Help in a hand cart.

Thanks dear Any Cat for this insight about that poisoned bullet.
Wow.
The universe needs Dean and heaven needs an archangel with all of his grace and a sense of duty…. Michael.
They pretty much spelled that one out this last episode.

And no… just no… loser self absorbed porn loving Gabriel will not cut it. He is a feint. The proverbial red herring. Just like AU Michael is the Macguffin. And Lucifer is a loser baby…

Michael and Dean both have have roles and without them the universe starts to unravel.

Look at what happened when Dean was in Purgatory.
Sam stops hunting. Crowkey goes crazy.

Dean stops hunting in 6. Crowley and Cas go crazy. Sam’s soulless.

Michael disappears and Angels start killing each other. The constant in the angelic storyline is that they have no fcking clue what they are doing.once Michael is no longer in the picture

stiff. Otherworldly … above it all. That is Michael. And that is my takeaway from those photos.

If the are using JDM instead of MC as Michael they are doing a disservice to MC.

So… yes. Big Reset.

I think there is a deliberate mytharc reason for the repeating of things.
I am convinced that Dean being allowed to change the story broke something and the universe has been trying to get back to the apocalypse and everything has been slowly falling apart since that moment.
Dean has said it before. They never get a break. Every year there is another Apocalypse.
Lucifer said it too. No matter what you do Dean you will always end up here with me.
Well … this time it won’t be with Sam… And that is all Dean needs to end Lucifer.
That is the reset the world needs. That is the peace Sam and Rowena need. Dean wants it. I gotta think Michael is jonesing for it.

Yeah. That moment where he drags Chuck to Lilith is pivotal. Chuck was not expecting it. Not was he expecting Dean to show at Stull. Dean has been the surprise. The character that Chuck could not write or control. Well the definition of free will.

Dean broke the universe by showing up at Stull because 3 things didn’t happen: no Apocalypse. No Michael in heaven. Sam didn’t die. I think all 3 things have to happen for the universe to be fixed.

We have seen the universe trying to bring about Apocalypse after Apocalypse since season 5 and we have seen Dean repeatedly save Sam and we have seen heaven fall apart slow no since Michael left.

Apocalypse may just mean killing Lucifer when all had said and done. He should not be on Earth.

Furthermore, we have seen Death suddenly take an interest in Dean and 1. Teach him about the natural order, specifically that people must die when they are supposed to die. 2. Request rhat he kill Sam permanently with his own scythe which is a permanent death and which was at risk to Death himself. It made no narrative sense but apparently Death felt it was thst important.

3. Death is intervening in Dean’s life and death and talking to him about fate and butterfly effect and choice. She has a reaoer watching out for him. My guess is Jessica was there to precent Rowena from killing Dean and she did so by telking rhe kie about Sam being Rowena’s final death. She is prepping him for something big and specifically feels he has work to do. She needs him to fix what he started.

So I think he is slowly dying from the poisoned bullet and Billie will take him to negotiate with Michael who will cure him or resurrect him and Lucifer is killed, heaven is restored…

They won’t kill Sam until rhe end of the show and it will be horrible.

I tbink that may be where the are going. It is full circle to the she’s beginning and it ties in with the weird fascination Death had with Dean.

One thing I noted re: Michael!Dean (and I agree with you about Dean ‘breaking’ the mold by going to Stull) is Michael was shown to be a very calculating ‘calm’ person. What happened when Dean showed up at Stull he did it to ENRAGE Lucifer by interfering in the Archangel Prizefight. When Lucifer got p-o’d and began to beat Dean to death he ‘said’ that SAM was going to feel Dean’s bones crunching. Dean trusted that Sam would ‘never’ let Lucifer beat him to death. Now ‘if’ there is a Michael!Dean we have already seen the ‘angel bomb’ that the BMOL used. I don’t think Michael would ‘ever’ harm a hair on ‘darling Sammy’s’ head; so Dean could not kick him out ‘that’ way; Michael would have to be evicted by the ‘angel bomb’ (what did Ketch call it again?) and we might have Michael!Dean for a ‘few’ episodes (PLEASE).

Evavie.
I believe that they have set things up as a negotiation. There will be a deal made… quid pro quo.
I do not tbink it is going to be a standard possession. Dean will have made a promise in exchange for something.
So not so easily undone until the terms are met is my guess.
Yes. Michael would not be stupid enough to jeopardize his plans just to torment his vessel.

This is going to sound wacky after all this time of me praising and/or b*tching about various episodes, but I have just determined that Season 11 is my favorite. I don’t want to miss any episodes at all! There are episodes in every season that I absolutely cannot bear to watch (Remember the Titans, Man’s Best Friends….—-AAARRRGH! literally—–Taxi Driver, Home, Route 666) but there is not one episode in Season 11 I want to miss. Now Season TWELVE has some craptard episodes, but I have actually liked most of Season 13. It is so weird. I think my issue ‘sometimes’ is the overall-arc of the season. 1-5 had ‘one’ arc, 6-7 had one arc, 8-10 another, and 11-13 so far has another one (at least I think so). I am enjoying watching season 11 on TNT, don’t know why they are skipping Love Hurts and Don’t You Forget About Me they were on ‘last’ time TNT ran Season 11. I think each individual episode is very good.

Honestly, I’ve also found that season 11 improves greatly on rewatch. The story is simple and focused: dealing with Amara. Unlike season 12, which had two completely unrelated stories, season 11 kept itself on track. It reminded me of season 5, where the singular conflict was approached from a variety of different angles and and approaches, rather than multiple underdeveloped arcs stuffed into one season.

But this time, unlike season 5, the arc actually followed through and gave Dean his own (superior) version of Swan Song. I loved that the story favored Amara in the end, that everyone’s plan to either kill or trap her turned out to be wrong, and only Dean’s instinct and empathy could save the day. From season 9 to 11 was one big story, starting with the ominous, mysterious darkness of the Mark of Cain and resolving with that same darkness finding peace herself. Dean got a cosmic win all his own, and he didn’t need anything except for the qualities he’d always had.

My only quibble with the season was that Amara and Dean’s bond was never really explained. If she was only drawn to him because he was God adjacent/representative of His creation, why did they kiss? The romantic attraction only confused things, in my opinion.

I am not like most of the people I read online in that “my” ending for Amara’s arc at one point in time would be Dean kind of grabbing her during the Big Fight and telling her all about The Empty and that she could create her own universe and make it the way SHE wanted; that he knew she was justly angry at Chuck and offering himself as ‘companionship’ (or however you want to delineate it) while she was puzzling thru Creation. Now maybe she could not create so it was an empty offer, but I think she would take it as sincere and her Wrath might’ve been soothed somewhat. OR they could’ve gone to The Empty and tried. Just an idea. My point is I did not think it skeevy to have Dean get together with Amara (and lots of people did so it might’ve enraged everybody else). I liked the idea of Dean getting together with an ancient being of such power AND one that was Immortal (nobody could hurt Amara so Dean would not have to worry about HER0). I mean, is there a woman in the world we ever met who was the equal of our Dean?

Yeah, I was sort of rooting for Amara and Dean to get together too, platonically or romantically. They had great chemistry and I felt that Emily Swallow, as a thirty-something woman, pulled off the necessary gravitas as God’s sister. There was nothing gimmicky or quirky about her, just straightforward power and confidence.

I think people were skeeved out by their dynamic because there was such an enormous power imbalance, and if she were to violate Dean’s boundaries she easily could. HOWEVER, that is not what was shown onscreen. Amara and Dean were mutually attracted to each other in ways that neither of them control. She also consistently talked to him as an equal and respected his choices without punishing him for it. Even when he lured her to him to distract her while the others rescued Lucifer, she didn’t react violently and was genuinely hurt and confused by the betrayal.

Their relationship was a metsogor for Dean accepting his dark side of course.

In contrast Sam becomes a,slave to his,dark impulses or goes dark when he is on some obseesive hubric quest and he had to make some serious changes and seek atonement and redemption

I had to explain to a,Stan that redemption does not mean getting to kill Amara. That is actually where Kripke went wrong and is probably why Amara was not a traditional big bad and instead was used to illustrate that Dean’s, darkness was not the problem… It was a part of him.

It is like these people never took English lit.
Maybe they didn’t maybe they went to school post W. When schooling was changed for the worst. How do you not know what a redemption arc is. It doesn’t mean getting to shoot something

They also thought Sam’s entire motivation in season 10 was rhat he was afraid That Dean would kill him….? ?????!!!!!!!000000

I honestly don’t even tbink D2 was going to kill him. Beat him pretty close to death. Sure. But he would be able to recoup fast or slow depending on the help he was able to get.

Jensen said D2 was Dean on steroids. He was not an unrepentant killer. Looney tune fangirl interpretation dance of the 1000 cranes.

If the entity guy was him he is,Joker crazy so it is chaotic revenge and none of the above.

He could be schizophrenic….
Part old Michael and part a new personality he created to cope….

Who knows what he wants.

Wildcard.

Maybe he the big bad temporarily and they have to heal him before heaven can be fixed.

There has to be negative repercussions for Dean’s decision …. right… otherwise nonpoint for a,redemption arc and he needs to move beyond the yearly suicide run. No more carrying around a kill kit in the go bag like it is normal.

The question is how many episodes of dean!Michael do we get.

They did experiment A lot with separating the brothers tbis season and no one complainer. No one but me noticed.
So they will have separate storylines for part of the season.
If Singer actually commented on them doing something darimg….. It is at least 6 maybe more. Woo woo.

And then Sam would save him and Dean would complain that he totally *ockblocked him. ;). Dean: “Sure, Purgatory you leave me to rot fighting monsters 24/7 but the Empty with a gorgeous woman – Goddess, no less – that-that you save me from!” Sam: “Just lookin out for you big bro! Wouldn’t want you to catch anything!” Dean: “From a Goddess? And anyway, you’re the one starring in a herpes commercial!” Sam: “Jerk!” Dean: “Bitch!” 😉

Who wouldn’t kiss Dean. She was exploring human emotion.
People hated it because they flat out were not watching it.
It was obvious that they were going for a feminist vibe and she was a wronged woman with righteous anger who would need to have her say and her have and be heard before she calmed down and that it would take a speech from Dean and god”s apology to finally do the trick. I am sure a lot of people wanted Sam to be right and Sam Eason so very wrong all season because it was the culmination of his redemption arc in which he had to admit his new culpas say his apologies, Tone and change.
I thought it was fine all along. The writing was there all along. And anyone who says that they pulled the ending out of their assets is a misogynist dumbass. Now teenage Lucifer was dumb. That I did not need to see.

When was teenage Lucifer? I remember the kid trying to ‘raise’ him in his parents’ basement and Lucifer showed up and blew up him and his buddy (who kept saying, don’t do it, don’t do it). There were a ‘lot’ of Lucifers in Season 12 as Luci went from body to body.

CC is referring to God and Lucifer being sat down and forced to talk out their drama, which involved Lucifer acting, as always, like a self-absorbed teenager. He is the only archangel out of the four given the opportunity to talk to his dad after millennia, and what does he do with that? Whine about how he was wronged and the real victim all along.

Sorry for my thumb typing and demented autocorrect.
Season 11 was awesome and very apropos especially in lieu of how Hillary was treated and how many of us strong, smart, ladies have been treated by men.
It was very obvious what they were doing I think unless you were a stan, ESG or bibro who wanted
SAM to be right and the evil bad lady to be destroyed.

Ok, I have a question. At first there were reapers. And then there were angels. And supposedly they were distinctly different beings. Then later we were told that reapers were a type of angel. OK, not impossible, but not what I’d been led to believe.

Now, in our most recent offering, we are told there are only nine angels in heaven and a couple on earth, but we also see a reaper, evidence of the deaths of couple more, and no evidence from Billie that they are in any danger of extinction. So is there any way at all to reconcile this, or should I give it up as a bad job?

Also, does Billie as Death have authority over other deaths, such as angel or demon deaths, or just human deaths. Her “big picture” view of the multiverse suggests a pretty wide reach, so what are the implications?

Sadly, the current Reaper canon is a raging dumpster fire. When the angels fell, the writers claimed that the Reapers also fell and were angels. This means they couldn’t clear out the Veil of souls as usual. This caused Tessa to commit suicide by MoC!Dean, even though it appeared later that Old!Death didn’t care.

Then we got Billie, who appeared to be able to move around as she pleased, ditto this new Reaper, and now it’s as though nobody remembers that Reapers are angels and have lost their wings.

I got another one: if Reapers are Angels how did Azazel possess Tessa in IMTOD? I am stuck on whether Azazel was a Fallen Angel or a SuperDemon (but if Lilith was the first how was Azazel in charge of Hell?) That early stuff confuses me.

I definitely think he is slowly dying from the poison the bullet introduced into his system. I’m surprised Cas hasn’t picked up on it. Sam knew he was hurt, Cas was there when he pointed it out but didn’t check him over or offer to heal. I think people are leaning toward Dean as Death because of the suit and the odd pic Jensen posted. I’m leaning toward wanting it to be the Empty entity because it would be so different. 🙂

Anyhow, really confused why everyone thinks Dean as the new Death makes sense when Billie is death and there is no way she is giving him her scythe and she plays be the rules. We just had an entire episode about her playing by the rules. Dean as,death breaks all of the rules.

Yet somehow Dean as Michael makes no sense despite copious anvils and multiple plot points that independently lead to Dean thinking why not. And why else is Rowena even around? Everyone wanted this in season 5 when he would have been a literal meat suit and now everyone hates it when he might actual retain partial control and/or even be Dean some of the time. Dean can negotiate. It will be a deal.Michael will be as desperate to get out of the cage as Dean is to live/save Mary/save the world…. again.

And the Michael is a dick argument does not hold water either. We know very little. Michael as Matt Cohen was otherworldly and stilted but not a dick. He treated Dean rather fairly. And he let him choose without punitive repercussions. And he allowed Dean to exact revenge on Zachariah for his actions.

Zachariah was a dick but we do not know that Michael is.

I have worked in museums where it was obvious the director had no idea how abusive some of the middle managers were to their staff. They were above the fracas.
That is how it is.

I don’t know if folks ate worried because the brothers might be separated for too long if Dean isn’t Dean or what.

I don’t even think the clothes in that photo necessarily convey time travel. Unnecessarily stilted and fussy. Definitely not Dean’s choice. Probably an angel. They tend to favor suits. But then so do demons.

Things are going to get very interesting.

Oh one interesting spec I saw was that maybe Dean!Michael travels back in time to make a change thinking that might fix things… err…. that could be a culling like death said or a major reboot and would rhat not affect WS.
Crazy talk. Oh wait. L oT does it all the time.

Looking at the photos, I’m pretty sure that’s Michael. He doesn’t look like Death. It’s the wrong demeanor. But he does have the alien, inhuman quality we saw in Matt Cohen’s performance, that Cohen himself said was a result of Ackles coaching him. Michael is a very cold and detached character, which is one of the reasons I’m not wowed by alt-Michael (the latter is too “human”).

I also think it’s time for Michael to return. Naomi (who I suspect is a fake by either Lucifer or Gabriel–at the very least, she’s not on the up-and-up) stated that the problem was too few angels, but Heaven’s decline began with Michael’s fall into the Cage. There’s a distinct watershed moment between “Swan Song” and season six. It’s just that the damage hasn’t become obvious until now. If God won’t stick around Heaven, Michael needs to be there and none of the other archangels is a good substitute. There is something unique about Michael that makes his presence in Heaven necessary to its (and the SPNverse’s) survival.

Aside from it being *the* major plothole of the show, I think this new character should be Michael because this is a storyline about Dean that should reveal something important and fundamental about Dean. If it’s Ackles playing (or some other being wearing Dean) another character, it will probably just be Ackles getting to do another role, with no actual ramifications for Dean, who would simply be absent from the story as a character.

I agree. That was my takeaway from Cohen”s performance too… stiff. Otherwordky… above it all. And rhatbis my takeaway from those photos. And yes I agree. Michael and Dean both have have roles and without them the universe starts to unravel. Look at what happened when Dean was in Purgatory.
Sam stops hunting. Crowkey goes crazy.
Dean stops hunting in 6. Crowley and Cas go crazy. Sam’s soulless. Michael disappears and Angels start killing each other. The constant in the angelic storyline is that they have no fcking clue what they are doing.

I half expect Billie to come for Dean except she flat put tells him that she is taking him to Michael because the universe needs him and only a fully powered archangel can save him. The way the writing is going I expect them to out dean as the BDH. Having Chick be God and having God tell Dean that he changed the story in season 5 by going to Stull, answering his prayer in season 11, telling him he was the firewall, letting him decide how deal with Amara, leaving him in charge of the universe… That was all pretty telling but most fans ignore it. Billie telling Dean that he is the hero of rhis,story and he doesn’t get to die because then the universe will die with him is about as big as it gets. That appears to be our set-up now. Thanks dear Any Cat for this insight.
Wow.
The universe needs him and heaven needs Michael.
They pretty much spelled that one out this last episode.

And no loser self absorbed porn loving Gabriel will not cut it. He is a feint. The proverbial red herring. Just like AU Michael is the Macguffin.

Not sure what to make of Naomi. The lights were not doing that previously when Lucifer was there so maybe he has flown the coop. )_( He is a loser baby…

It could be that up to the point where Dean brought Chuck up against Lilith in TMatEoTB (the first time Dean changed fate), Dean was still fairly expendable to the universe (albeit the Apocalypse Clock started cooking along quite merrily as soon as he went six feet under at the end of season three) and was only critical to the cohesion of his own family. But then, after he changed fate (as Billie kept harping on last week), a burden of keeping the SPNverse in alignment fell upon his shoulders.

Short version… in our universe… everything went off the rails when the Apocalypse did not happen because Chuck let Dean change the story by going to Stull which lead to Michael going to the Cage.

Everything had been off since. Every year r here has been another near Apocalypse as if the universe is trying to get back to where it should be. Every year Dean and Sam have to clean things up again.

Chuck answers Dean again. Chuck let’s Dean decide the ending of the story again. Dean saves world again. But this time Dean knows rhat Chuck is God and God is a schlub and God has lect him in charge basically and he and his team are all the world has and it sucks.

Advanced Thanotology. So important in so many ways. Not only a crash course in Dean’s fatal flaw and,basic m.o. but also Billie tells us that Dean is important. Dean is the BDH. The Universe needs him. Billie don’t reap him. She knows that he cannot die.

My guess is the reset will involve saving him by bringing him to Michael who can heal him or resurrect him. Dean and Michael can negotiate some quid pro quo arrangement as equals. Dean is an equal at rhis point.

Billie may tell them both that the Apocalypse has to happen on some scale here because everything is out of balance.

At least now Dean can mediate it so that the world can go on rather than be paradise. Lucifer has to go back to the Cage or die. Michael needs to fix heaven. Bottom line… everything has been out of whack since the Apocalypse did not happen. That was on Dean as leader of TFW as the one who said NO to Michael and as rhe one who rewrote Chuck’s story, and he needs to fix it.

Yes, Stull is probably the real turning point, but Dean really changed fate the first time in that motel room and Chuck was right there when Dean did it. Look at it as a test balloon to see if Dean could pull it off. I’m not saying that Dean was a Chosen One from birth (the way Sam was), so much as he was the first person to be able to make his own choices and exercise Free Will, such that he could inspire others around him to do so as well.

Okay… more thoughts.
If Dean changing the story by showing up at Stull which caused the Apocalypse not to happen and Michael to go in the Cage and Sam not to die. What if these 3 things are critical acts that f ked things up and all 3 have to be fixed for everything to go back to normal.

I started thinking about all of the times Death has interacted with Dean…
1. Season 6. He teaches Dean about natural order and about what happens when you let feelings interfere with fate… when you don’t let someone die that is supposed to die. Dean always dies this with Sam.

2. Season 10. Death inexplicably asks Dean to kill Sam. It makes no sense yet he asks it and risks his own life in doing so.

If those were the same photos I saw they weren’t terribly clear? I get the “alien” observation. If it is Dean/Michael it will be interesting to find out why the peculiar choice of clothing. 🙂

I read a speculation somewhere that it’s Dean/Deans Grandfather. Dean/Henry. Interesting but I see absolutely no reason for Show to go there. Dean/Michael makes the most sense.

As far as the entity in charge of the Empty – I think the idea of contacting it to work out a deal using the resurrected to refill Heavens ranks came to Cas while he was letting the sand flow thru his fingers. Hence the ‘everything ends’. That is another reason why I’m leaning toward no Dean/Entity

More like his great-grandfather or even great-great-grandfather. Those are turn-of-the-(20th)-century-to-maybe-1920s clothes. It’s interesting, though I agree there’s no basis laid for that, yet. Seems clear he’s in “our” time, though, and that he is invisible to those around him.

I can see Castiel making a deal to bring back a bunch of angels from the Empty, and possibly some demons like Crowley and Meg, but I think that would be his story, not Dean’s.

The pictures aren’t especially clear, but from Ackles’ expression and stance, it’s pretty obvious he is going for Extremely Non-Human here, which would track with Michael.

Last night WHILE I WAS WATCHING, about 20m in, the electricity went out. I mean OUT. I got up with the sunrise at 8am and I was ‘freaked’ to find out that we had at least 17 trees torn out by the roots by what is called a micro-cell or a micro-burst. The wind was frightening. Out whole neighborhood lost out electrical infrastructure!

So the show was all taped and I am waiting to find out how the episode turned out.

Bernard. I rather enjoyed the episode although I am not sure that it made sense in the grand scheme of things.
Rowena should be a wee more worried about Kucifer alrhough Ivam not surprised she is upset about Feeeerrgus’ totally otc death that meant nothing in the long run because Lucifer did not die/was not trapped AND this better mean thst Crowley is in the AU somewhere complaining about the poor accommodations.
I thought they made it pretty clear that soul were little generators so now heaven is powered by angels… okay. And Luci just got depressed and ran off. . With Amael… so f’ing weird. Naomi made me miss Metatron… a lot. I found it hard t o cry for heaven since those silly angels kept stabbing each other.
Dean was magnificent.
Are Sam and Rowena going to bone. Will she be wishing it is Cas.
I do love Rowena.
Dean is just barely human anymore. He already exists on another plane of existence. Rowena sure noticed that Billie gave him the VIP treatment. She woukd be slumming it with Sam.
Still I kind of liked it.

I’m starting to wonder if the idea is that the entire alt-SPNverse is dying and starting to fold in on itself, and there will be a mass evacuation of any surviving humans and angels from over there (I guess demons won’t get a look-in, but maybe we’ll see an alt-Crowley).

Speculation Time! What if Dean agrees to let the entity from the Empty possess him in exchange for him resurrecting the sleeping angels and restocking a Heaven with same? Why would Dean do this? Perhaps he’s slowly dying anyway from the poisoned bullet and it’s his way of saving earth from the devastation that will occur if Heaven closes down for business and all those ghosts would fall onto earth. Why you ask? Who knows. Why would they be ghosts instead of just souls? Because I said so. But why wouldn’t they be ghosts with souls, you say. Like Casper the Friendly? Eh. Don’t bother me with details! I’m sorry but when I heard her tell Cas about the “ghosts” – I cringed. I actually looked to see if this was a Nep Duo script. There was so much bad scattered in this script it would take a book. Some, like CasCat are convinced it will be Michael/Dean but I’m not so sure. Jensen said it would be someone from the past and I thought he said someone scary. Dean (and Jensen) were always a bit scared of Death. Michaels scary but in a different way. Who else could it be with what appears to be a penchant for nice suits? Crowley? Balthazar? Neither particularly “scary” perse. Cain? Azazel? Alistair? Except for Death or Michael I really can’t think of anyone. You? Of course when you take into account how they run roughshod over canon, it could be anybody. Or anything.

Electricity is on; our Dish satellite had a tree fall on it. Our phone service works for our 25yo Radio Shack plug-in phone (don’t know if anybody else remembers that — the OLD phones that were lead-lined and heavy enough to KILL not the little wall phones. Golly I don’t know what they ‘are’ or ‘were’ called (maybe my husband plugged them in wrong after all this, I am usually the one who changes out the phones). BUT we are making arrangements to get the trees off our land. LORD A’MIGHTY.

POOG is no one from the past and he is not someone Jensenbwould need to do homework on.
The last time Jensen spoke about homework hecwas taskingvabout studying Matt Cohen’s portrayal of Michael if memory serves me.
Meh. Not buying it.
He could be slowly dying from that bullet. Couldn’t Cas heasl him or something. Wouldn’t Cas pickup on it. That would explain Billie’s comment.
If he were dying why Wouldn’t he just run over to Michael and say hey let’s make a deal. He needs grace. Heaven needs an archangel. Michael needed a body.
Not sure POOG is somebody from the past we know. No reason to think That was the last death.

But nice catch about the bullet wound. It meshes with Billie’s comment.

Dean’s priority is Mary. He made sure to play nice with rowena at the end. He is thinking Michael.
They are not setting up the Apocalypse chess board to not have Dean!Michael.

If Jensen’s toying with us the “From the past” could well apply to the entity in charge of the Empty. As far as homework-how much more homework does Jensen need considering we haven’t seen out Michael sine Anna went back in time to kill Sam. Unless you consider the time he was using Jake. I dunno. I’m still holding out that it not be Michael but chances are that’s what we will get. Either way,-you know Ackles-he’s bound to spill the beans like he did with his comment prior to DemonDean.

I believe when he and Matt were working out gow to olay Michael rhey referred to it as their homework.
From the past… season 5 and Dean meet Michael by going back to the past..
It is Michael.
POOG is a primordial entity. Not really the same tbing at all.

I still think the set-up is there in spades for Dean!Michael and Naomi’s spiel or Dean’s potential imminent death does not change that.

Dean’s first priority will be Mary. Everything else will be gravy. And they have already established that he will be making a quid pro quo deal. Rowena will want Lucifer dead and addressing AU Michael will probably be part of it as well.

I do not know what that thing in the Empty was but it did not act like death. The only oil based things we ever saw were leviathan.

Now that would be a twist. Cas is really Dick come back for revenge. Naw. Leviathan don’t get angel powers if they eat an angel do they? And then we get Dick Dean for real….

I finally watched the fan video of Dean in fancy dress. I agree that it is not Dean. Definitely holds the body more stiffly. I don’t get a past vibe either though. Just a very expensive well tailored men’s outfit. Angels wear suits.

Kind of man out of time. But who knows what the cool kids wear these days. Not Dean.

Is Sam following him?

Not much else to say..

Seriously… where is the Death speculation coming From? He is not in black. No skull tipped cane. Not a death trope in sight.

Dean is going off the rails but he is the ultimate strategist and pragmatic. He will make his self sacrifice count.

Priority 1 is save Mary.. For this he needs an easy supply of archangel grace and possibly a hail Mary resurrection because he is dying from bullet wound poison.

Priority 2 is saving world.from AU Michael/Lucifer/heaven’s collapse

Dean is smart enough to realize that Gabriel is not a sure thing even if he helps them in the short term.

He is,already desperate enough to try anything especially if it means,risking himself, especially if he is already a dead man.

Dean knows that Michael is sitting in the cage probably jonsing for a way to hurt Lucifer and Rowena is emotional over fergus afraid of Lucifer too. It is just too easy now that Asmodeus,is,gone,and he has nothing to lose.

And boy Billie showing Dean his shelf of deaths and talking about choices… and her see you soon… boy… when Dabb does it well it sings.

OK stupidest move EVER (and there ‘have’ been some dumb moves over the years) by the Brothers Winchester was chaining Eldon Styne to the ceiling in their basement by ONE f-ing arm. I know they wanted the visual of the arm dangling but did NOBODY say, that is the stupidest move EVER?

That one just bugs the DAYLIGHTS out of me. AND then Idiot Styne tells his daddy that LoL has the greatest store of supernatural books/objects/relics and THEN Idiot Styne decides to burn the place down.

So lots of stupid in that story line. I got the impression there were European Stynes set to come over for ‘ReVenGE’ on old Dean for wiping all these ‘enhanced’ humans out but they never showed up. I wonder if they’ll backstory that the Stynes and the BMOL were in cahoots, IF they ever go back to that story (like The One You’ve Been Waiting For was a revisit of Everybody Hates Hitler)?

Anyway, Book of the Damned is on TNT this am and I ‘liked’ the first Styne relative we met in this one, but the rest of the family was playing Southern Boob imo and were nothing-burgers.

Personally, I was honestly surprised that Sam stayed back and did as Dean asked when Dean announced his intentions of going after Mary alone. He certainly had the same mulish expression that he always gets when he dislikes something and has no intention of following through. I was sure he was going to find some way to follow Dean, and cock things up even more.

So imagine my surprise when he stayed behind and at least attempted to do as told, even defending Dean’s plan to Castiel. Character growth for Sam? Gasp* Or is that also a red herring.

But did Dean really leave Ketch and Charlie in the lurch? I thought they made their wishes pretty clear, and they both obviously knew the risks. Nothing to feel guilty about there, even if Dean did wish things had gone down differently.

He didn’t. He tried to get them to go with him, but they didn’t want to go (a world must really suck if the SPNverse is the best of all possible ones). And they probably figured things would be more complicated than Dean thought they’d be in terms of his coming back right away.

Whatever.
Dean has been manic on edge about losing Mary. It has been obvious since her return thatvhis,fear of losing her again was paramount and uber obvious that her loss broke him this season and he is barely holding it together. Getting gas back was a bandaid.
Most fans do not really watch the show in my opinion.

So CC how do you think you’re idea of DeanMichael is going after this last episode? Did you see the pics from set of Jensen as Dean walking on the street dressed in those clothes? Per report of someone there they said it wasn’t Dean. Different walk… Do you think that is Michael/Dean? Others have posited that Dean become NuDeath (tho I think that’s unlikely). Any thoughts there? Also as far as this whole we’re down to 7 angels – either Naomi was Lucifer and he’s lying or it’s true and I’m thinking maybe because there is no one around capable of creating Heavenly Host Part Deux that ultimately (thru Rowena) they will have to raid the Empty ,interrupt their eternal slumber and refill the ranks that way. Maybe that’s what Castiel was contemplating while sifting the sand through his fingers… and didn’t I hear some idiot line in this episode about Gabriel being able to create new angels? I hope I imagined that.

I’m really curious as to what you think of those set pics.

Why did Billie tell Dean “See you soon Dean”. Will she be there when he has to make the decision? Will he die only to come back as DeanMichael? Will Sam be on the brink of death and that’s when Dean says yes or asks for Michael to possess him. I can’t see any way this logically plays out if Billie is involved.

Dean as Death makes no sense. He may try to do a deal with her or maybe she shows up because someone else does or here has to be that culling she mentioned or AU Michael makes it here or whatever… she has already indicated rhat she recognizes his importance and she needs him. No such recognition for Sam last night.

So yeah it has to be Dean! Michael and wow… I know I sounded like crazy Cassandra last year but they really set it up well, especially this year.
Dean is already so far gone and so off the rails.

That photo really had a similar vibe to Amara disappearing into the crowd free. Rather foppish attire too but then the way Cohen played him Michael did seem like a fop.

As for angels. I would say look to the angel tablet. Michael was first. He might known. A prophet could repair the tablet. Kevin repaired the leviathan tablet. Or get the AU tablet.

Awaken angels from the empty. Sure but POOG must have done something to resurrect Cas here in vessel with a better wardrobe and attitude.
Jack only awakened Cas’ consciousness.

I do not know why Gabriel would know squat. He was the messenger angel. The angel of the anunciation. And then he bagged.

Oh someone on Previously tv suggested that the AU angels would be able to fill up heaven. I suppose they could bow to Dean!Michael when ge beats AU Michael and agree to do that if…
It is the simplest solution.

Yeah, I thought of that option a while ago (may have mentioned it?). It would introduce a whole new group to the SPNverse equation. And it might keep Michael up in Heave (and away from Dean) for a while. Plus, they’d all hate Lucifer.

What I found different this time was that Dean didn’t drown in guilt over leaving Letch and alt-Charlie in the lurch. Instead, he was really pissed off, while Sam and Castiel were fearful. Whether they felt guilty or were scared of him or scared for him, I don’t know, but they did seem to believe they had failed him and I think Dean agreed. Granted, that may not be entirely fair, but considering the way they’ve screwed him over and let him down in the past, Dean not internalizing all of that is actually fairly healthy for him, even if the current mood he’s in is pretty dangerous to the entire multiverse.

‘I” think it never occurred to Sam or Castiel that Gabriel would ‘bounce’ and not help them. HELL he could’ve left them a couple of vials of his Grace for them to go get Mama for gosh’s sake.

Now Dean, Dean would’ve had Holy Oil around, he is not a trusting person where Gabriel is concerned.

So in NOT having the imagination that Gabriel would not help them they ‘did’ ‘fail’ Dean, but Dean was NOT mad at them. He was ‘cursing’ fate or whatever.

I was thinking about Chuck and the big prize fight with Amara and why Chuck did not get Gabriel or Michael to enter the fight. I think this is upper level thinking, but I now believe Chuck ‘knew’ Gabriel was alive and I also think we will not have a CRAZY Michael. Every statement of fact we get from Lucifer is a lie. Just a HUGE lie. The way Show explained Gabriel’s fake-out, it IS just like him to be a cowardly coward who runs away. As for Michael, we shall see what his true state is I believe.

Chuck is GOD and GOD knows how everything will turn out. He faced Amara and LET HER WIN. It was the only way to make peace with her. He knew she did not really want to kill him she just wanted JUSTICE. I can’t really comprehend their relationship but I do believe in an omniscient God so that is how I came to grips with this. His traveling with Amara (and leaving behind his beloved Earth and its music and art and beauty) is not his penance but his payment to Amara for permitting the Universe to exist. At the end the love between the two of them was immeasurable (at least I think that was what they were going for) and it makes more sense to me the way I have thought thru it.

Again I am amazed at how well they set tbis up with Roweeeeena so wanting Lucifer dead and being able go open the cage and Dean being so primed and desperate to save Mary and needing archangel grace and sure offing Lucifer and AU Michael and whoever elsecwoukd be icing… And Michael… well I bet he wants Lucifer dead, for starters.

Timeless was really enjoyable last night. I am so glad Kripke has a ‘good’ show here. I know it does not get great ratings, but I look forward to watching it; actually watched it ‘real time’ last night!

I think Asmodeus being dead (and I believe he IS, some character had to get off the screen because LORD is the show overstuffed with plots now) then Hell would be in a real mess. When Azazel died Lilith (both were ‘old followers’ of Lucifer) then Lucifer then Crowley (new style demon); Abaddon was an interloper with no loyalty to anybody; Crowley again; Asmodeus.

There is no chain of command in Hell. I wonder who will be in charge with Asmodeus dead. (I just believe he is Alycat.)

Asmodeus better be dead. It is way past time for a little board-clearing and he was never the major player he and certain writers made him out to be. Nor was he or any of the other nuYEDs fan favorites. That storyline holdover from season 12 didn’t work. Time to prune it and move on.

Abaddon was working for Lucifer back in the 1950s, but she was definitely working for herself in the 21st century. Doing a pretty credible job, too.

I’m guessing the removal of Asmodeus will create chaos in Hell and make it possible to access the Cage again.

The actor was on General Hospital as a hitman who came THIS CLOSE to killing Sonny the mob boss YET AGAIN. And he was ‘great’ in the part. I like him a lot. I think the failure was in the writing/plotting, because having seen him before I know he is a good actor.

And YES, this week we get Rowena and HER issues and I just bet that Dean talks her into getting him into the Cage.

I don’t know if I am right or not, I don’t, the show surprises me sometimes by NOT going to where I think it will, but JESU Kohani (POLISH for Jesus Christ) I want Michael!Dean so badly I can taste it.

I still don’t believe Asmodeus is dead. Remember how Gabriel explained how he survived by using a fake and that ‘fakes are everywhere’? And if he is dead, as much as I really didn’t care for the character – nothing against the actor – that would have to go down as one of the lamest deaths for a villain in history.

And Gabriel, devastated but able to revive himself off of one hit of his own grace? So Show is demonstrating that grace can regenerate. If that is all it took after his level had clearly been siphoned down quite a lot, then why couldn’t he, while imprisoned and regenerating inbetween Asmodeus’s visits, have gathered enough juice to kill him then and escape?

Also isn’t it bad mojo to use someone else’s grace? Remember back when Cas did it? So now Lucifer can just use Anael like a sippy cup and all is okay? Canon? What canon?

Lol canon.
Asmodeus is a demon. Archangel grace should kill him.
I think the deal with Gas was that he had no grace. Lucifer still has a smidge and is recharging so Amael’s makes him feel better until he is fully charged.

Eating another angel’s grace is supposed to be bad because it burns right through the other angel, but eating souls is usually okay because it makes you more powerful. But maybe archangels are on a different level, or something. I dunno. LOL!Canon.

I think the issue was Cas had no grace. It is okay to eat grace as an energy drink if you have some of your own but you are low. But it is bad if you have lost all of your grace and are mortal. Then foreign grace will make you sick and wear you out. Kind of makes sense.
Cas had zero. Metatron took everything.

I think IF we get Michael!Dean I think the battle will be in AU!Earth. I think we get Dean telling Rowena to get him to the Cage. Asmodeus is gone, nobody will be in charge in Hell for a while. I thought it would be a 4-way fight with Asmodeus and Hell’s minions fighting AU!Michael with ‘his’ Heaven’s minions and Lucifer with ‘his’ Heaven’s minions and then TFW trying to prevent Our!Earth from being destroyed.

But now I think Michael!Dean will go to AU!Earth to get Mary and Jack and help AU!Bobby, AU!Charlie etal against AU!Michael. I believe Dean will be able to maintain a bit of control over Michael, that he ‘sets’ things right. And then we end up with the battle to Michael out of Dean’s noggin. I think Dean won’t say YES so much as make a DEAL.

The last time we were in AU!Earth it was a desert area; NOW we are in Winterfell? Did not like that.

Bleh. If they do Dean/Michael I’m going to be disappointed. It seems all they do anymore is revisit old storylines. I’d love for it to be someone else. I think part of my hesitation is that they will write it and not be able to pull it off. (Not Jensen – I think he will rock it-it’s the writers I don’t have faith in) Example: “Hey it’s Zachariah! Hey Zach! *Blerg. He’s dead*. Hey it’s Crowley son! Hey Crowley’s Kid! *Blerg. He’s dead*… Why? Why bring them back only to kill them off all over again. It probably will happen tho and with Dean making a deal. He’s got that crazy look in this eyes again. Either CageMichael will be bat shit crazy and Rowena will cure him with a convenient spell or unlike the description Lucifer gave, he will be in fine shape, pissed off and ready to get out.

I could have lived without AUCharlie. But I did like her better than “our” Charlie. Hopefully they will kill her off. Again.

Why did Dean say he might as well have stayed over in AU world since they have no way of returning. Was he talking about forever? What would the point be of his staying voluntarily? Sams still back on our earth with a pissed off Asmodeus and the possibility of AUMichael crossing over. Was he just blowing off steam? That made little sense to me.

Dean is on the edge baby. Pairing him with stone cold Ketch was perfect. Dean is so c lose to rthe edge. He is all about saving Mary any which way he can. Losing her is,the origin story of his tragic flaw and he cannot lose her again. Apparently Charlie functions as a,surrogate gor some of that emotion too.
Yes some of it is tiresome. However in my opinion r Hey have done a masterful job dripping the hints about the impending Apocalypse from 12.1, Dean’s Mary issues from 12.1, Dean’s,manic need tgo save Mary from 12.3, Dean!Michael from the time they started hinting at rthe Apocalypse…. and the build-up to Dean’s total meltdown leading to his inevitable reckless self sacrifice deal making with Michael to save Mary and get a win has been so beautiful orchestrated this season ..
We had Advanced Thanatology to refresh anyone who hasn’t paid attention to Dean’s m.o. over the years with a callback to season 6.
We had Amael fckin tell us that desperate humans make quid pro quo deals to save lives ones.
And Dean has been barely holding it together and running solo Gonzo missions all season.
I really feel like Carver is on retainer ghost writing all of this stuff.

Michael will be crazy kind of like Dean is crazy now I expect. And I am not expecting a quick fix either because a deal was made. It won’t be the same situation per Apocalypse 1.0.
Dean may feel he has no choice but to agree to Michael’s terms out of desperation if AU Michael invades or his desperation about Mary overtakes readon nore rthan it has.
Remember Rowena too us in a similar mindset regarding Lucifer.

I think things could get very interesting

Another of my orexicyuons is that TFW will be fractured. I think we are starting to see that.

Sam kind of lacks Dean’s leadership skills. There is no I in team for instance. Dean says we saved the world. SAM says I saved the world. SAM manipulates people. Dean inspires people.
Not sure he can hold them together.

Cas is team Jack now. Pretty sure Fetus Jack altered the programming and who knows what POOG did.

No Crowkey to come up with a hail Crowley.

Dean will be very very very rogue.

Season 14 may surprise us. I really wish they would bring Carver back.

I’d like to see a situation where Dean and Michael are more a blended personality than entirely separate. This would make it harder to kick Michael out and also give Dean more agency. Mix things up a little. Ackles did hint that they’d basically being doing another version of the MoC storyline. Not a shocker, considering that was such a hit.

Well if it is a quid quo pro it could be like that.
They will be negotiating … Dean will be eyes wide open. If Michael wants to stay he has to negotiate too.
And we know it will be quid pro quo because this is Dean and Amael already spelled it out.

It freaks me out now dishonest Lucifer is about his abilities. HE said ‘he’ was the person who put Amara away ‘without the dead weight’ um NO. He tells the angels he can give them back their wings and start with the create new angels. Um NO. He still never explained if he was the ‘most powerful’ of all archangels how Michael got him into the Cage anyway.

I was struck by how beautiful Daneel Ackles is. But I am a little grossed by the idea that Lucifer may actual be thinking he and Amael are in a relationship. Um puke.

Michael is more piwerful rhan Lucifer.
Lucifer is like Sam. All me me me.
Sam is all I stopped the Apocalypse.
No Sam. Your weak human brother did by showing the fuck up for you and changing the story.

I’m still fighting it but it looks like I’m going to have to be a reluctant yes soon. I really was hoping they would do something more original and less predictable. Rehash an old story line and bring back an obvious character from the past. Eh. I don’t have enough faith in this current stable of writers much less the showrunner… to pull this off and not ruin it or the character. I’m still resentful that they brought Joshua back only to immediately kill him off .

I’m not saying I didn’t think about the possibility of Dean saying yes to Michael on a second go round as I’m sure others did. It’s kind of an obvious play considering the way they like to redo or revisit storylines. I’m just saying it isn’t something I would necessarily like to see come to fruition. Mainly because I don’t trust our writers or showrunner s to be able to pull it off without completely ruining what’s come before. I don’t know about you but I’m tired of having the past seasons mucked around with. How many episodes do we now have to look at differently because certain people can’t seem to leave well enough alone? And the other reason is I like to see them stretch themselves creatively and think outside the box. Michael/Dean for me ain’t it. Nor would it be if they revisited Sams blood powers. Been there, done that.

I don’t want to see them do anything but DeanMichael for the same reason. At least with DeanMichael, we know Ackles can pull it off, regardless of how terrible the writing might be, to the point where we know he laid most of the groundwork for how we perceived the character in season five. It’s also arguably the largest still-gaping plothole involving Dean.

I am not confident that they could pull off having Dean become anyone else without blowing canon right out of the water and pissing fans off even further about that plothole.

Ya know… I am convinced that the majority of fans,are clueless or stans…
The majority d per not see the,rationale or the set-up which is why they tbink he is more likely to be Death, Loki or ghost John.
AU Michael is getting a lot of play now too so he can do a cage jump just like Sam. Ugh. What they want is for Dean’s story tove a xarbon copu of sam’s without seasons of set-up and no ramifications. Yeah. And no. He is not going to say yes to AU Michael. That is not how a Dean self sacrifice works. He is nothing like Sam. He want sacrifice himself unless he knows he is saving family. That move stinks of hubris not of self sacrifice.
But yes. Jensen can do this. I think we are getting Devour/My Bloody Valentine Michael though and less the performance he worked on with Matt.
I think they really mean to do crazy.

They are all looking it. So yes. Cage Michael or Empty Michael is going to be as crazy as Lucifer intimated.

And yes… I finally realized who thst weird empty entity guru reninded me of… Heath Kedger’s Joker. So when we finally get Dean!Michael I predict that the show will tryto borrow a bit of Gotham’s dark zany vibe.

And this time they have laid the groundwork for why he would say yes.
He is an empty shell. He is ready to check out. The world needs Michael to save it not him. The battle is not about killing Sam or killing humans. In fact it is the opposite. Defeating Lucifer definitiveky protects Sam and defeating AU Michael protects humanity in two worlds.

I think there is a deliberate mytharc reason for the repeating of things.
I am convinced that Dean being allowed to change the story broke something and the universe has been trying to get back to the apocalypse and everything has been slowly falling apart since that moment.
Dean has said it before. They never get a break. Every year there is another Apocalypse.
Lucifer said it too. No matter what you do Dean you will always end up here with me.
Well … this time it don’t be with Sam. And that is all Dean needs to end Lucifer.
That is the reset the world needs. That is the peace Sam and Rowena need. Dean wants it. I gotta think Michael is jonesing for it.

Yeah. That moment where he drags Chuck to Lilith is pivotal. Chuck was not expecting it. Not was he expecting Dean to show at Stull. Dean has been the surprise. The character that Chuck could not write or control. Well the definition of free will.

I actually really like the idea that stopping the Apocalypse caused fate to keep trying to correct it, hence the exponential increase in world-ending problems post season 5. It provides a neat in-universe justification for the many following seasons, and also serves to thematically unite the entire show. I’m sure it’s not intentional subtext, though! That’d be far too clever for them…

AU Michael is the Macguffin anyhow. He really doesn’t matter. All he is there for is motivation or to get characters to move to their end game positions.

IMO The entire point has been to reset everything up for Dean!Michael vs Lucifer I suspect unless wildcard Jack changes things. Luci on low juice has,added some pesky feelings into the mix. Not enough to make him step up for heaven but enough that he has been an ersatz boyfriend to Amael and has not offed her despite her sass. It is,a,bew look for him.

The question is what will the upcoming confrontation with a very emotional Jack bring. Emotions make both more powerful.

My gut says if they give us Dean!Michael, he will want to kill Lucifer and Rowena and Dean woukd probably make it part ofcthe deal. Perhaps this will be after a sweet redemptive moment for Luci.
Didn’t team Angel do that to Lindsay. Allow him be part of the team for redemption then kill him because they didn’t really trust him?

Yes. That my telegraphed that a quid pro quo deal wpyld,be made through Amael’s story akthough it was obvious it woyld olay out that way already. Dean makes deals
Absolutely Dean will need,Rowena and I said before will be happy to help because she wabts,Lucifer dead as does Michael I imagine.
Mexican quid pro quo. They all get what they want.

Big Michael shout out during exorcism.
Pretty sure Dean!Michael might start out as a,way to save family and win against AU Michael but it will probably be mano a mano against Luci soon enough. Dude needs himself a,slapdown. Not kilking Amael is personal growth but…
Loads of manic must save Mary, Jack, Charlie sekf-sacrificing Dean.
I like AU Charlie way better than out Charlie.
Yeah I called Dean!Michael over 18 monrhs but man anyone not thinking it now,after rhat show closing meltdown and classic Dean on the edge face is not really watching the show.
Yeah I know Gabriel comes back but he is,a,flake and I do not see Dean trusting him or anyone elseto do what needs to be done, especially not in a,season in which Dean has repeatedly sent people away whilst he did things alone.
Dean and Letch make a good team surprisingly.
Asmodeus burning up was most satisfactory.

I have decided to explore Santeria. I like the idea of a personal relationship and candles. Plus you only see the priest/priestess if you need help. Works for me.
Husband has been instructed to purchase a,few starter candles that are all Catholic go every which way.
Also have Lord Ganesha on hand to help.

Now I could see a crossover with The Exorcist (I would’ve loved Sam and Dean to show up and save that sweet man’s life just walking thru the door with holy water and EXORCIAMUS TE and then the smoke happens and Sweet Man lives. That demon was hard-core and EVIL.

Paula, which is more in line with actual Catholic (and I think it is mostly CATHOLICS who perpetuate this stuff) exorcism thinking, what is on SPN or The Exorcist. For instance, WHY does an exorcism which is approved TAKE so long? Why do they have to break the demon down or whatever first? Send them back to Hell.

Is it the ‘strength’ or the POWER of the exorcist which counts the most, so that Sam and Dean are plugged into divine power in some way? I am just curious how this stuff work in the real world.

A crossover with Arrow would probably destroy Supernatural for good, since it would permanently merge the SPNverse into the DCverse. And I seriously doubt any fan who thinks about it for longer than five minutes would want that. Same thing with The Exorcist.

The Exorcist is more in line with Catholic theology. In the show, God works through the exorcist, but the exorcist has to work very hard to keep that connection open and pure. The show is more in line with folk and pagan lore, where the power of the exorcism lies largely in physical recitation and the will of the exorcist. This appears to be tied to the power of the exorcist’s soul.

I decided The Purge is my all-time least favorite episode. I dislike on an intellectual level Home (Missouri abuses Dean), Man’s Best Friends with Benefits (man on dog sex even if it is never spelled out is just GROSS in the extreme) and Remember the Titans (I can never figure out what is going on, everybody in the w hole episode is stupid in the extreme, every single character should be dead by the end of the episode including Sam and Dean!).

I love the first season but it has multiple episodes I just don’t care to ever watch again: Home, Bugs (I don’t hate, just don’t like),

Oh gag me with a,spoon. Apparently it is our Gabriel and he did fake his,death and has been hanving out with sime demigod and they turned on him and sold him to Asmodeus. So an upcoming episode is about rhe fang hekping him exact revenge on those pesky demigod.
In a season in which we already have too many friggin plotlines and characters…. this is just the worst fan service. And to have a powerful archangel ridiculed in this way to begin with rhat he can be overpowered by denigods and sold to Asmodeus and act like Renfield (Dracula pet). Pathetic waste of time.

Well, ‘our’ Gabriel ‘did’ get ‘caught’ by Kali’s blood spell. So he was not all-powerful.

What the issue for me is that Chuck ‘said’ Gabriel was dead (along with Raphael). Did you see Big Trouble in Little China? I loved the scene of the Three Storms descending to fight the guys in the funeral procession, slowly descending showing their powers. I just saw Raphael, Lord of the Air, slowly descending to fight AU!Michael OR Lucifer. I would love the Three Archangels descending to ‘save’ our reality from AU!Michael. I know it’s not going to happen and in the end it will be Michael!Dean (well, I HOPE I am right) showing up at the last minute to settle things down.

Then next season will be Sam’s attempt to get Michael out of Dean. But the problem (for me) would be that DEAN by showing up at Stull Cemetery and gumming up the works enraged Lucifer and when Lucifer began to beat Dean to death he enabled Sam to come out and take over, Power of Love — Baby.

I’d say more that Michael is inhuman. He doesn’t play by human rules. He doesn’t even really understand human rules. And that was Jensen Ackles’ idea because that’s how he coached Matt Cohen to play the role. To say that Michael is insane is…well, it makes no sense. He’s older than the universe. A few hundred years is an eyeblink to him. By human standards, everything he does is “not sane” because he is not human. And of course Lucifer was lying about something. When does Lucifer ever really tell the truth?

I also have to laugh at the idea some fans have that Gabriel is the most “human” of the archangels. The first few times we met Gabriel, he was screwing with humans (often fatally) just for kicks. He made Mengele look compassionate. People tend to forget this, just as they forgot that Lucifer is a vicious, self-absorbed bastard.

Gabriel should die quickly again or pretend to because it is,canon rhat he is a capricious coward. I have no idea why he is a fan favorite.

The difference this time may be rhat Dean actually makes a deal with Michael rather than just says yes to play his part. They are setting Things up for Dean to go to him and ask for help. They are setting Things up for Dean to ask for a quid pro quo arrangement. They mirrored this using Amael’s backstory.

So…it may not be as simple as Dean regaining control. Dean may have made a bargain.

If they want the show to go on for a long while longer… and I think they might because once again it is at the top if the leader board… They really have to mix it up at this point. Having Dean actuaslky stay Dean!Michael would do that.

They have had Dean work solo a lot this season. He has said y’all go home I got this a lot tbis season.
They are setting us up for separate storylines…. maybe.

Who knows.

They are not giving us an identical Apocalypse. And the fact they are setting Dean up to make one of his deals… changes everything.

I’m watching Sharp Teeth. I vote Sam’s most unusual ‘tie-up’ spot is the tractor in Bess’ family barn. I know it’s mostly chairs. Hey, Garth is tied to a ladder. That’s interesting too.

I told husband that that WHOLE CULT signed their death warrant when they kidnapped Sam and tied him to a tractor: that was the surest way to get Dean ticked off and then…it’s violence GALORE. Destruction wrought by the Righteous Man!

Oh pooey, I just saw the spoilertv.com ‘spoiler’ that it is OUR Gabriel.

Hey, maybe it is AU!Gabriel who crossed over, got nabbed by demi-gods (already weakened because AU!Michael was sucking out Gabe’s grace), sold to Asmodeus and now hanging out with the WINCHESTERS again wants to make some ‘trouble’ for everybody he was ever PO’d at in his entire existence.

It ‘could’ still work, but I agree it’s a longshot. I just don’t get why Gabriel if he is OUR Gabriel did not betray any recognition when Ketch brought him to the LoL.

Paula, a SHOW question for you: is Eric Kripke involved At ALL in the show anymore?

Last night I watched Timeless and Amara and Bobby’s Reaper were on as actors. So I wonder if he was ‘aware’ of their work from SPN or if they were just in a pool of actors he uses. Hey, he got a tax cut to move the show from Vancouver to Los Angeles. So maybe not, I am curious if he tracks SPN at all anymore. I mean, the longer it stays on, the more money he gets, right, he is STILL getting money from SPN.

This stuff interests me, like HOW we end up with certain pairings and plots and certain pairings (I miss you Aileen!) and plots (Michael!Dean the ‘first’ time thru) get dropped.

Yeah so either Dean comes back alone empty handed and finds Sam in ASMO’S hands or Dean comes back with Mary and,Jack and,AU Michael and it is,a bar room blitz battle do take. All roads lead to Dean!Michael.
Sigh. I really am the Dabb Whisoerer.

I enjoyed it. Fun and throw away. Sam was an annoying that. I loved Dean’s enthusiasm. Nothing made much sense. There were several angels in the haunted house as someone on previously pointed out. Not sure it means much since this,wa, animated a while back even if I was seeing signs of Dean! Michael when it was animated.

The writing team that did this could be turned into decent show writers I suspect. This had the light tone of a cartoon but they also seemed to capture some key details,of both shows for a,one off episode.
If they binge watched the full run they might become decent supernatural writers
Somebody has to replace Perez. He is leaving right. Thank God. I will never get over a demon injecting archangel grace.
Or a demon overpowering an archangel to rthe extent that he is a quivering mess.
I cannot wait to seethe explanation for that. I am sure AU Michael is part of it but stil….

Don’t you mean Sam was an annoying TWAT? I read it first and then I said WHA? and then I reread it again and I just laughed.

I am unsure if Gabriel now in the Bunker is ‘our’ Gabriel. I wonder if he is AU!Gabriel who entered the rift about the time Jack was born and got caught ‘here’ (Heck maybe AU!Michael was holding his prisoner TOO and stealing Gabriel’s Grace and THAT’S how AU!Mike beat AU!Luci in the first place?) and then Asmodeus snagged him.

The simplest answer is that it is AU Gabriel who was tortured by Michael and had part of his grace removed to weaken him and his mouth stitched shut to silence him and escaped here through a rift. He may actually be a,spy for AU Michael and playing weak for access to intel.

Wow, that is not a path I would think re Gabriel being a spy for Michael. I just don’t see it.

But just to out-conspiracy you one, CC, I wonder if Ketch’s fight with Asmodeus IN FRONT of Gabriel was to show a ‘pretend’ rift between them and that Ketch would get with S/D as a spy for Asmodeus.
THAT would make more sense for me.

Eh. I Don’t buy the Letch spy tbing myself. Letch is off this season. I do not know what is up with Ketch but I do not tbink ge is loyal to Asmodeus abd ge seened orofoubdky shocked by the dude shoorung up archangel grace.

Everything is,way off with Gabriel. I doubt he is out Gabriel. That saud,there is big reason for an archangel to vegace like that.
Apparently out old,friend FRIEND from IFP is floating the,theory on her blog that he is,crazy Michael incognito which seems crazy to me.
I do not see the up side to being out as a weakened losing grace by the minute crazy Gabriel.
I think Michael appears when Dean makes a deal.

I ‘got’ that Gabriel was traumatized by what Asmodeus had done to him but CRIPES he was a weenie coward In MY opinion.

I remembered when Dean when MoC-y after Charlie died: she was the only piece on the board who would affect him like that (except for Sam but then, HELLO, it would be the End of the Show). So yeah, Gabriel even if he had powered up and become ARCHANGEL GABRIEL again he was still messed up (I gather he shows up later to get TFW to help HIM with something).

Dean’s full face-on camera shot at the end: he is at the END of his tether and I would be willing to bet a Girl Scout SAMOA (love ’em) that he got ‘the idea’ last night that there was ONE archangel still on the board and HE was uniquely situated to do something about it. IF Michael is cuh-ra-zy like Lucifer said (but then again, every damn fact that Lucifer has ever dropped about himself and/or his family has turned out to be a lie) he might be more persuadable. And ‘if’ Michael is ‘damaged’ Dean might be actually able to control Michael with Dean’s IRON WILL. Because Michael-as-Michael is a COLD being and he would never make the mistake Lucifer did: try to beat Dean to death and saying SAM WOULD FEEL IT ALL. What did Lucifer ‘think’ was going to happen? Like I watch an episode, somebody threatens Sam or something (or ties him to a tractor!) and I always turn to hubby and say, yep, mutilation deaths GALORE. (To quote Crowley, don’t worry about Sam; Dean: have you MET me?)

I loved arbor day trees. A few years,ago we gotc3 red buds which anchor our front yard beautifully! Over the years I have acquired several cherry, hibiscus and dogwoods at end of season clearance to join them. Passerbys wander into our yard for photo ops.

Net nyet nyet! They already said only a fcking archangel can use an archangel blade so why can Letch use it. And why the gekk can Asmodeus inject archangel grace shouldn’t it kill him. Remember the days when just looking at grace expressed as light killed demons.
Otherwise fun episode.
And we are still getting Dean!Michael.
Dean being chosen for a host was a big ass clue that that was still on track. Just will happen beca use Dean will be wanting that big win.

That is what “I” got out of the exchange. Sort of like the Colt could kill everything except for 5 beings in the Universe (and I wonder if that is Chuck and the Archangels…then we add Amara (equal in power to God) and Death.

But that is how “I” read it.

Oh, btw, CC I like your idea that Asmodeus was powering up to kill Lucifer, injecting Archangel Grace into himself.

Of course, I just think he got a power boost. “My” theory is that the Princes of Hell are angels (regular class) who became Lucifer’s Minions and fell with him; that is why Azazel was not ‘revealed’ by Holy Water when he possessed John in Devil’s Trap. The fact that Princes of Hell were ‘really’ hard to kill seals it for me. When Cas was helping TFW in Season 5 he said he was losing power as he was cut off from Heaven and for me THAT is why PoH had lots of ‘some’ power but not full angelic power.

Just my thoughts.

I am hoping for a battle-royale next month and then Michael!Dean shows up to settle everybody’s hash.

Oh it is definitely going to be a mexicaj battle royale wirh Dean!Michael takibg heads
I like the idea that they are,fallen angels except Lucifer hasvgiven no hint of that. In fact he said that he made them. Lol canon.

He made them ‘what they were.’ I just remember that other angels fell with Lucifer from my youth catechism, now maybe the good nuns were just ‘telling tales’ sort of and that is not true. Heck, I saw a silent film Life of Christ one year and it turns out somebody filmed most of the Infancy Gospel of Jesus (in which Jesus is a brat, doing magic tricks all the time). But Infancy Gospel did not make it into the Canon of the Bible so that makes it Apocrypha. At least I think so.

In today’s dailybeast.com Candida Moss who is a theology teacher at Notre Dame has an article about Asherah and her being found at a temple-related synagogue by archaeologists. Paula, have you got an idea why the show made Amara as God’s SISTER and not a character who had been God’s WIFE at some point in creation? WAS the show going for a Dean-Amara hookup at some time?

Okay I have claimed down enough from my apoplexy to realize that Asmodeus is injecting archangel grace in order to be able to use the archangel blade himself to kill Lucifer, which I guess isxnotca bade plan IF HE WEREN’T A Friggin DEMON !!!! On a on show which demons used to die,at the sight of angelic grace expressed as light. So yeah… that happened.

I guess that Dean will come back devastated without anyone to find Sam in evil Admodeus’hands and go all Michael.

I did enjoy Asmodeus putting the beat down on Letch and finally the southern accent had a purpose because finally the show morphed into a monologue from a southern corrupt chaingang/prison movie or somesuch. Why are demon minions so stupid as a rule. Because they all sold,their soul to get Trump elected…. And share drum beat…

CC, I felt from last night’s show that the fact that Asmodeus was using Archangel Grace to power up (as he had been the weakest of the Princes of Hell) so it fits with my idea Asmodeus was a ‘lesser’ angel who fell with Lucifer.

Do you agree it is at least a possibility? I have been advised that superwiki or whatever it is called said they were the ‘first’ demons, but we have WAY too many ‘first’ demons running around now: Lilith was first demon, then Cain became a demon ‘first’ and most power of the Knights of Hell. But Azazel comes in ‘where’ then? So I got MY Lucifer background: God noted that Lucifer was dangerous for his beloved human creations. (I gather Adam and Lilith were First Couple, then Lucifer corrupted her and then God brought Eve into the picture; then Lucifer tempted Eve. At this point God called a meeting and demanded this must stop and stop NOW. Lucifer demurred. God told Michael to ‘cut’ Lucifer out of Heaven and put him in The Cage — I always loved the idea that The Cage was made out of Michael’s Grace and as such was unassailable for Lucifer. For all Lucifer’s talk he was always portrayed as second in POWER to Michael. The four Princes of Hell were cast out with Lucifer. I gathered that Azazel was ‘always’ loyal but that the other three fell away at various times because they saw no way to win.

Anyway, that’s why I think the Princes were all Fallen Angels.
I ‘loved’ Gabriel’s wings were undamaged by Metatron’s Spell. I wonder if the spell could/did not affect an actual Archangel?

I didn’t notice they weren’t damaged. I’m going to have to watch again because the first viewing I don’t remember thinking that they looked anything like Castiels full beautiful plumage when Dean first met him.

I thought that might be the case too…but it ddies not seem to be so in show canon. No evidence of this as of yet. No text to support it
ARCHANGEL Grace should have killed him.
It was a big faux pas,I think. Major LOL Canon.
Just a big ole sign of how they do not think things through…
The Neo. Duo must be in charge of continuity.

I think when Sam and Dean were in Scoobyworld they were of indeterminate age. We did not know how old they were, except we KNOW how old they ‘are.’ So I was not skeeved outlike others were/are about Dean hitting on Daphne. He was not ‘out of her cohort’ imo.

I loved the Scrappy Doo quick run thru the upstairs doors.

My husband watched the episode with me, and the first scene, at the very beginning, he suddenly cried out Dean Killed BARNEY! They just got the right amount of humor…well, lots of humor.

I saw it as a loving homage to both shows. I loved the voice actors. This was an inspired idea for an episode.

It was no different from Sam being tongue-tied around the lady-manager of the wrestlers in Beyond the Mat. Personally I found the poster of hers over his bed skeevy.

And Dean also reacted to her as if she were still a 20yo rather than the 40+yo she was (I assume — haha — that this was at least 20yr after they were kids watching her on The TeeVee). Because altogether she was a DAMN fine looking woman.

So fun to see this up, even if it’s just the first half. I’ve been dealing with our annual inspection at work all week. While that is necessary and appropriate, it’s about as much fun as a root canal without novocaine. So I needed some diversion.

Personally I enjoyed this one. It was silly and contrived and shallow, but Scooby Doo always was. Two quibbles with it though. They basically reverted Dean back to his first season self in relationship to Daphne, and even then I always had the impression that he’d back off if the woman, or man, wasn’t interested. I’d say he acted like this because she was a cartoon character and he didn’t see her as “real”, except that his concern about keeping the characters “innocent” argues otherwise.

Also, the sandwich scene was funny but it seemed off. Dean’s obsession with food always seemed to come from a place of neglect, even if the show plays it for laughs. Whereas the Scooby gang sprang fully formed from the mystery van, and Shaggy and Scooby just . . . really like to eat.

I disagree that there is an inconsistency regarding Castiel’s surprise that Scooby could talk. Of course Castiel can talk to animals. That doesn’t mean animals normally speak English and talk so humans understand them. They’ve always needed magic for that.

Finally, as someone whose kids watched Barney obsessively, no matter how much we tried to divert them onto something else, killing the Dinosaur was IMMENSELY satisfying.