The God Who Wasn't There

Former fundamentalist Christian Brian Flemming places the core concepts of his former religion under the microscope in a documentary that attempts to do for religion what Morgan Spurlock's Super Size Me did for the fast-food industry. In his bold quest to seek answers to the difficult questions that few are willing to pose, Fleming is joined by Deconstructing Jesus author Robert M. Price, renowned historian Richard Carrier, and The End of Faith author Sam Harris.

From the ignorance of many contemporary Christians as to the origin of their religion to the striking similarities between Jesus Christ and the deities worshipped by ancient pagan cults and the Christian obsession with blood and violence, this faith-shaking documentary explores the many mysteries of the Christian faith as never before.

This documentary argues the "mythicist" case in the historical Jesus debate. This position says that Jesus of Nazareth wasn't a real person but a fiction based on Jewish scriptures and mystery religions of the Roman Empire. It doesn't make sense to talk about a "real" Jesus - there wasn't any. This documentary has good information but could have been better produced - any high school student could have done a better job.

There is plenty of evidence that Jesus lived. We are called to walk by faith. If christ was a hoax as this film claims, what purpose did it serve. All of the apostles except John were brutally murdered or martyred. Would these men be willing to die for someone who did not exist. I trust God. To undermine christian believes just because mister Flemming faith was lost is absurd.

nathan

many gnostic christians were killed for there beliefs...people are killed all the time for believing things that undermine other people. doesnt mean anything except you are being forced to do something you do not want to do

Hayley

in reply to craig bull. -
Name one, just one piece of evidence that Jesus actually did exist. These documentaries are not claiming that Christ was a hoax, only that they do not know, and nor do you. Religion has a type of certainty. It's sick. What purpose is religion serving now? Where in the bible does it prohibit racism, sexism, continuous cases of rape and child abuse?
The only thing religion has contributed to in today's society is intolerance.

taylor

To all of you:
i have poundered god many times and if there is truly to be a god then you have to understand how much he is apart of us. There not really a whole and true god, you just have not looked close enough, Jesus was real, and the things he did may not have been mircles like you think. To look closer at this topic you look at the quantum level of the world. unknow and misunderstood just like god, no one can say for real whats going on just like. Everything is really random in the world. this angered alot of physics people because just alot of people thought god would not place dice with the world. but as it turns out your like is just as random and missunderstood like the quantum level. and until we solve the very small and very big the world will remain a mistery. So i leave it at if you need relgion you join to help your self, and to pherhaps fill void in your life. And for those who do not believe in religion like my self, we just don't need it and we know it so it angers us a little that these people follow this relgion and that with out saying they act like they have something over us. when really their religions just is a way for them to interpret god and what he wants. Relgion i just comfort. If theres a god were all going..... simple as that

Antoine

The Christ paradigm has existed long before historical Jesus' supposed time on the Earth. Do the research! You already should know about the 16 crucifies saviors that existed centuries before jesus and they all were: 1)Born on Dec 25th, 2)Born of a virgin, 3)had 12 disciples, 4)performed all sorts of "miracles" and 5) were crucified and rose after three days.

When The Roman Church gained power they began to destroy all these religions and their scriputral accounts as well as their history.

You do the math!!!

Casey

For you to undermine us for NOT having Christian faith makes you a sinner.

Vilya

Wow well put Taylor I'd love to be able to talk to you and hear your ideas.
I personally believe that Jesus was one cool guy, he was one of the few people that stood apart from the crowd and decided to try to make the world a better place.
When St Paul decided to start a church about him, for the Jews that believed that he was the Christos, (Messiah) he could not, of course, say or even imply that Jesus was "just a guy" so he Divinified him. I won't even speak of Mark and the rest because they came way after Paul and simply created scripture to impress Jesus' Divinity upon the masses. Each adding upon the other to make Jesus more relevant to the time they lived and to increase the power of the church.(and more divine) ALL taking their ideas from previous "parables" of older faiths. Remember back in those days it was VERY unlikely that anyone in the region that St Paul (and the others as time past) was trying to spread this new faith, had heard of Horus or any of the other stories that make up the roots of the bible. Only an educated few knew of these stories, so they used them since they knew that these motifs had worked before in making people see whoever was being written about as Divine.
Lol more and more If you really want to educate yourself there are tons of documentaries to teach yourself but in the end remember the editor/publisher of the "Bible" was Constantine and his Senate, NOT God.
If you are part of the masses that need a "religion" to fill that need for support in your life then, amazing, but please try not to become fanatical about it, fanaticism about religion leads to all the worlds woes today.
If you are one of the few that has seen religion as the illusion it is PLEASE, do not replace it with another that simply claims its different. Scientology, Cabala, .. ugg .. and so many smaller ones, all praying upon the lack of relevance of prophetic religions in the modern world.
Open your eyes and ears, look, listen, learn, read, watch, form your own ideas, do not take others beliefs and allow them to fill the need for support in you, grow strong.
But never be so self convinced your right that you cannot listen to another opinion.

http://myspace.com/bergys bergys

Religion is poison.

Jil

It amazes me when people who believe in god mock him by the very act of speaking/acting for Him when He is fully capable of speaking for himself. Show your divine boss some respect let him speak for himself.

The only holy book of 'god' or manual of 'god' is the book you were born with, nothing.

http://www.aaancestorsnc.com Mel

This documentary, like all else created by imperfect beings, is not the final word on this subject. However, it does raise some very important points regarding the origin of christianity __ points that have been made elsewhere before.

Unfortunately, many christians cannot and dare not attempt to disengage the mythology from the spiritual wisdom of a Christed soul.

Casting pearls before unappreciative consumers was unwise then and remains so today.

clarkus maximus

How can we evolve as humans when we are held back by ridiculous ideas from people looking to control mass groups of people thousands of years ago. Absurd is what christianity is, and a poison indeed.

Adam

I am really tired of the argument that Christianity is poison and meant to control the "masses". Where in the Bible does it say we must follow a set of rules? Some will say the 10 commandments. Ok, first understand them. The 10 commamdments are the ultimate standard of right and wrong. They are what God will judge each of us by on the day we leave this earth. So, if you have perfectly followed the 10 commandments then you have nothing to worry about. If you have never lied, stolen, lusted (adultery), hated (murder), and loved everyone else perfectly then you have nothing to worry about. The 10 commandments were given by God to show us how to live. If you say that honesty, integrity, love, and fidelity are poison then you my friend have some problems. If you can honestly sit down and without the guilt of your conscience say that you have kept God's law perfectly then you are unlike any person I know. The people I know (if honest with themselves) will all say they are guilty of breaking God's law. If we have broken the law of God there will be punishment and the Bible teaches that we are all enslaved to sin. We hate God's standard and we love to do whatever we want. We are slaves to our own sin and the guilt of it.

The Bible also teaches that God (Jesus Christ), out of love, came to earth and bore the guilt and punishment for our sins. You see we are the guilty party, we deserve hell. But God provided a way through Jesus Christ that we can be forgiven. We are all guilty because we are all law-breakers against a Holy and Righteous God. There is no way that you can keep God's law perfectly....True Biblical Christianity does not teach you to fall in line and try to live better. The Bible teaches that we all have sinned. But Christ became sin for us, even though He knew no sin, so that we can be forgiven and made right with God. When we realize with the help of our God-given consciences, that we have sinned against God, we will understand that we need to be forgiven and made right with Him. It can only come through Jesus Christ who lived a perfect life and took the wrath of God in your place then defeated death by rising again.

I am a born-again Christian. I am free. Jesus said you shall know the truth and it shall set you free. From what? The bondage of guilt from sin and the punishment of eternity in hell. I do not try to follow these rules because I feel like I am being controlled. Rather, I know that Jesus Christ suffered for my sins, and by the grace of God I have truned from my sins to Christ. I trust in Christ because I have no other answer before a Holy God other than Christ redeemed me with His blood. Thus, Christianity has nothing to do with US trying to follow rules. It has everything to do with Christ being the only way to God because we are so unworthy that all we can do is turn from our sins and turn to Christ. There is no other name given to us whereby we must be saved. So please before you bash or rant and rave please understand what the Bible actually teaches and what it means to be a true Christian.

jonathan

lol...i was raised by an extreme born again christian...and all i have to say is Christians are some of the most ignorant, sexist, intolerant people on this earth...and their opinions/beliefs are to me, void of all real substance...they just think because the bible says it so, than it is...95% don't even know anything about any other religion because churches teach them not to even educate themselves as to what the other stories and faiths are...its sad really...almost a whole generation that's completely out of touch with reality...
not to mention most don't even understand their own religion...or bother to study it...and the ones who do, either lose faith, or live in denial the rest of their lives, claiming they have faith in god and that Jesus has a plan for them...such a sad waist of life...

jonathan

Christianity/Judaism /Islam = three weeds from the same root....

Vilya

Jonathan ... Totally respect you for being able to see the actual "Truth" even within the environment you grew up in, I am sure there are many who won't even talk to you now because of your ideas ... Respect man!

Adam, your contradicting yourself throughout your comment. You start of by saying that the Bible does not want you to follow a set of rules (that are meant to control people), so it is NOT the poison that the people here are making it out to be. Lets take the 10 Commandment out of the equation ( in my rebuttal) since I can easily disprove what you said by that alone.
(Do not have any other gods before me.

You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,

NON of these have anything to do with morals or even ethics, it was simply there to make sure people were either in the faith or out, thus making it easier to control them)

But lets ignore that for a minute.
You keep saying "God’s law" are these not rules that control you. What about
Leviticus 11:9-12 says:
9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

Deuteronomy 14:9-10 says:
9 These ye shall eat of all that are in the waters: all that have fins and scales shall ye eat:
10 And whatsoever hath not fins and scales ye may not eat; it is unclean unto you.

Is this not a law, a rule to stop people from eating shellfish? In this context it was for a good reason that is no longer relevant ... Do you eat shrimp? BUT it is a rule put there to control people, lol obviously there are tons of others I just used one that is not to disputable.
BAck in those days these Shellfish were pretty dangerous since they being scavengers could have any number of diseases within them, today we are either immune to most of those diseases now or we prepare the shellfish properly as well its a lot safer since most are grown in farms, though naturally harvested shellfish still can have Hep B and C strains in them.

Either way as you can see, the Bible was used as a way to control people, there is evidence all over and each of these laws had the simplest of teaching tools attached to it, that is so good we even use it on puppies. Do it! you go to heaven (puppy gets a treat), don't do it! you go to hell(puppy gets a little tap).

You say you are free, free from:
"The bondage of guilt from sin and the punishment of eternity in hell"

My version of freedom is being able to have my own beliefs, being able to form my own ideas, being free to do what I want within my own ethical boundaries, being free to NOT hurt and NOT adversely affect the lives of the people around me, being free to THINK, LEARN and ACT.

On the other hand, you are "free" to follow exactly what the Bible says, "free" to do what your preachers tell you to do even if it is to force people into converting to your religion, by plying upon their ignorance or weaknesses, "free" to join the army and kill Muslims under the orders of Generals who have no connection to God, "free" to learn only what the preachers want you to learn, so that you are lack the intelligence to realize how much of a "slave" you are.
As well, you are, according to your idea of freedom that you stated, able to kill and commit any sin you wish since you are free of that guilt now, and you wont go to hell since you are also free from that.

Which one sounds more like freedom?

eric

religion serves a good purpose in life... it serves as a conscience towards the building of peaceful civilization.. in many ways that would entice u to believe there is a god.... simply because faith and religion brings people together towards better goals.. regardless of whether christ existed or not... was the son of god or not... just the hope and faith made many people stronger during hard times... over many centuries... it was a comfort of reference. i agree that religion has been formed by the people for the people and to the people... and every religion has a fraudulent part of it.. it seems that people will form their own relationship with god and trust in that.. it s much better than feeling betrayed by a debunked belief many years after having kept certain beliefs...

Adam

Vilya,

Respectfully, you do not understand what you are quoting or what you are saying. I hear the argument all the time about the national/ceremonial laws in Exodus, Deuteronomy, and Leviticus. They were laws set in place for the Hebrew nation over 3,000 years ago. They had no bearing on Christ and they have no "control" over any true Christian today. Pointing to national laws back then and saying, "this was used to control people" is correct. Likewise, it is exactly the same as saying we are controlled in America because we have speed limits or an FDA that sets requirements of what can and cannot be sold to people. The national/ceremonial laws back in those times DID "control" the Hebrews then but those laws do not fall on us today. We are controlled in America or any country to a certain degree by national laws but what you point to was for a different time and a different nation. Pointing to Hebrew ceremonial law and arguing that Christians are controlled by it is a ridiculous argument that has little to do with Christianity. If you understood the Bible you would know that the New Testament says again and again that if anyone is in Christ these requirements do not govern them. (Galatians, Hebrews) So my point again is shown that people attack Christianity without the knowledge of what it truly teaches.

As my previous post tried to explain, and perhaps I did not do a very clear job, is that God's moral law is eternal (The 10 commandments, Exodus 20). His moral law is what He will judge us by and it is certainly still in effect for all of us today. But again, it is not something that we begrudgingly strive to keep because it is impossible. We are evil people that lie, steal, hate, lust, cheat, covet, and blaspheme all the time. We are habitual transgressors of God's law. Since God is just, He will punish all law-breakers. The just punishment against an eternal God is an eternal hell.

Here is the thing though, God does not delight in the death of the wicked. He loves people so much that Christ came and died in our place to absorb God's wrath for what we have done. If you repent (turn from your sins) and trust that Jesus paid your fine, then you will never have to answer to God for all the times you broke His Holy law. The justice you deserve already was paid for by Jesus Christ on the cross. That is the crux of Biblical Christianity.

Lastly, who said I was hurting anyone or adversely affecting those around me? Do you know me? You also talk as if I am under some kind of mind control and that I have never researched other religions and philosophies. You basically make me out to be some moron who doesn't think. Tell me, how much time have you put into looking into the claims made by documentaries such as The God Who Wasn't There or Zeitgeist? How credible are their sources? Do they have original sources? Is there any pre-NT evidence for any of the Jesus parallels that they claim? How come the ideas in these movies were categorically rejected by scholars many years ago? I don't hesitate to watch these things. I am not hiding from claims against Christ. Remember what Jesus said, "you shall know the truth and it shall set you free"? Stop making assumptions based on biases and honestly look into the evidence for Christ.

Melanie

Adam, obviously you ARE under some kind of mind control because you keep regurgitating the same contradictions...*pats on head*

Max

To any who have already read the following, please forgive my repetition. But I have yet to hear a reasonable reply:-

Validation of faith in terms of human reasoning and the material universe, is questionable.

Faith, I have heard people say, is just that. Faith. Transcendent reality is inherently a matter of faith. Beyond human reasoning and the material universe.

Isn’t faith one of the fundamental concepts of religion.

Adam

Melanie,

Thanks for the pats on my head :)...what contradictions do you mean?

Vilya

Adam
I agree with most of your first Paragraph, but the rest while I do not agree with you I will not say "you are wrong".

At the end I am VERY very sorry, I did not mean to single you out as if you are some how bad. The statement on freedom that you use is one I hear a lot from many members of quite a few different churches. The meaning I show for it is one they never seem to think of. I did not mean to single you out in any way or even imply that you are like this .. Very sorry.
Though my statements are harsh, all of my references to why religion, especially Christianity, is not "freedom" are true, with proof. The church is used to increase the US Army (Bush administration, especially), I wont even go into forced conversion since, there is too much proof for it throughout history, all of these things done because people who put their belief in Christianity, inadvertently put there unwavering faith towards whoever stands on the pulpit, and that is the lack of freedom that I am mainly speaking about. If you read the Bible and really do "freely" consider all in it then :) awesome .. I am happy your happy and would not really try to move you from that place of comfort, I may place ideas before you and see what you think but I will NEVER say "I am right so there is NO way you are". (above I tried to show your contradiction, even If I think your wrong I will not say accept my belief, I will just show you why I think you are wrong). Just as you can show your ideas I can show why I believe your ideas are wrong. It is not personal vendetta against you nor is it a vindictive attempt to defame Christianity, it is simply discussion. I again sincerely apologize for making it sound that way.

Either way you are separating the old and new testaments. While this is smart, this alone is proof of the fallibility of the Bible. While I do know Jesus spoke against many of the olden rules ... why is it that so many of the "new" Christian sects that try to separate themselves from the RC Church still do the "God hates Gays" bit when it comes from Leviticus.

And yes I always, as much as I can, research the background on ANY information I receive, even if it reinforces my own ideas, Under the Zeitgeist Refuted film, I actually stated that I disagree with some of the concepts Zeitgeist presents and agree with some(I am against The Venus Project), I as well did research on those same scriptures I quoted and saw what many have said on it, oddly I did see your thoughts as well but as I said before saying that Jesus said its okay, is proof of fallibility.

One of the good things about the Bible is its teachings on Morals, Kindness, do on to others etc ... but too many times these thoughts and teaching instead of saying ..this is how we must treat all of man kind, it goes to, this is how we treat other christians. While you may not believe this, history and present day events show this trend. As well one does not need a Creator to do learn these good things. (oh as well I have heard many preachers from America agree with the War in Iraq because ehe Bible relates to those who accept Christ NOT those who don't. Very simplified and a little vague but the Idea is I have heard sermons that support my statement.)

Again I am sorry for seeming like I am pointing you out, while I was rebutting your statement, I was not directing my points at you personally.
As well I am not saying that the Bible is not meant to be good, nor am I saying it has, in it anywhere, any real hate, what I am saying is that TOO many times, do you see the Bible twisted and used to spread hate, used as control by singling out certain laws/rules and making them hard and fast while being soft on others ..that are even within the same verse, all the while saying that some rules are SOLID because of somethign then saying the other rule in that same verse is nothing really because of something else, both reasons being reasons that should affect everything within the same verse. (little confusing I know please forgive)

carl m

jesus forgive them 4 they not know ..

Max

I have a good idea of what is being done Carl. Do you have an idea of what has been lost.

Adam

Vilya,

Thanks for your response and I understand your points. They are indeed valid points. Many people throughout all of history have used God and/or Christianity to promote their agendas. I would argue at some length that just because people misuse the Bible to control others...it does not make the Bible itself untrue or controlling. Certainly, the RC church down through the years has used ignorance, fear, and biblical doctrine to control people. Likewise, "Christians" have tried to make watertight arguments for slavery in colonial and early America. But there were also at that time the Puritans and Quakers who were set against slavery.

I do know that there have been and continue to be many hypocrites that slander the name of Christ and thereby make the Bible look foolish (Westboro Baptist for one example). However, I would also question if those very people are truly in the faith...I mean if they have truly repented from their sins and turned to Christ. When I read the Bible I do not see where "controlling" behavior like that is promoted or endorsed. The bottom line is this, everyone is free to choose what to believe. I believe that Christ is the answer not just because I hope so but there is ample evidence for the historical/Biblical Jesus. And if His claims are true then He is the only way to peace with God and forgiveness of sin. There can not be any other way IF Jesus was true. I would never physically force someone to confess or believe something and neither will any true Christian. My job as a believer is to present what the Bible says and let God work on hearts and change people. I can never argue you into the faith. Anyway, I appreciate your response back. I enjoy thoughtful and honest discussion. Take care.

Adam

Vilya,
Thanks for your response and I understand your points. They are indeed valid points. Many people throughout all of history have used God and/or Christianity to promote their agendas. I would argue at some length that just because people misuse the Bible to control others...it does not make the Bible itself untrue or controlling. Certainly, the RC church down through the years has used ignorance, fear, and biblical doctrine to control people. Likewise, "Christians" have tried to make watertight arguments for slavery in colonial and early America. But there were also at that time the Puritans and Quakers who were set against slavery.

I do know that there have been and continue to be many hypocrites that slander the name of Christ and thereby make the Bible look foolish (Westboro Baptist for one example). However, I would also question if those very people are truly in the faith...I mean if they have truly repented from their sins and turned to Christ. When I read the Bible I do not see where "controlling" behavior like that is promoted or endorsed. The bottom line is this, everyone is free to choose what to believe. I believe that Christ is the answer not just because I hope so but there is ample evidence for the historical/Biblical Jesus. And if His claims are true then He is the only way to peace with God and forgiveness of sin. There can not be any other way IF Jesus was true. I would never physically force someone to confess or believe something and neither will any true Christian. My job as a believer is to present what the Bible says and let God work on hearts and change people. I can never argue you into the faith. Anyway, I appreciate your response back. I enjoy thoughtful and honest discussion. Take care.

Vilya

Adam, I agree with pretty much everything you just said, and I wish all Christians were like you, though there is a small contradiction.
First of all, while I myself believe that every man has the right to chose his own path to god, I am unsure of where in the Bible it allows this. If this, on the other hand, is purely your belief, built out of the Bible's message of love, then good, but I am sure you know that historically, Christianities views on conversion and "the Truth" go against this concept.

This is my view on Jesus Christ. He was an amazing guy, he was strong enough to stand up for what he believed was right. His charisma and his ability to simply be kind and generous, while so many were not made many follow him, and just as any person who people revere, his thoughts about how to live, become teachings. Others after him used his memory and his renown for their own purposes. Some good, some Bad. My idea is that most of the "myth" and supernatural ideas revolving around Jesus grew out of this. Especially, most of the absolute statements. As well, remember he was a Jew, so many of his ideas on why one should do good would come from a Jewish stand point.
Either way I think highly of the Bible's message of love and kindness, and teachings such as "do on to others etc" BUT again I say the percentage of time the Bible is used only to teach these things as opposed to being used for many many other nefarious reasons, is very small.

Thanks for your thoughts :) I as well enjoy thoughtful and honest discussion.

can

Religion is just anti-human but pro-god, god is given higher priority over human and life and so violence towards other human in the name of their god is born. It deceptively demonize or reduces the value of human life.

craig

There is no contemporary historical references for Jesus and furthermore, there is not a shred of evidence for his existence either.

The great beast in revelation is religion!

aguy

adam and vilya are the same person
sorry

Either Way

You are an ignorant person.
This is about a feeling you've had that tells you you've had an unhappy, unfair childhood.
This is not about religion.
Grow up.

kristina

god fell asleep 213 years ago and he has not woke up since. lazy!

WTC7

It's a pity the film is not available anymore so I couldn't see it, but I certainly enjoyed reading the discussion btw Adam & Vilya. Bravo for you guys :-)

Achems Razor

"We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes"- Gene Roddenberry.

Robert

The best evidence is found in the Shroud of Turin. I suggest you all review documentaries even from the Discovery Channel who is not generally for "religion." Note the fact that with today's technology the image cannot be reproduced. How do you think a corpse over 2,000 years ago did it then?

The problem is that people don't explore enough. The history of Christianity is in the Bible. A lot of individuals compare the story of Noah and the flood to the Epic of Gilgamesh. The Epic came afterwards with no real reasoning for the main character being chosen however the Noah story offer much more detailed information. In all respects if there are multiple stories accounting for the same natural effect then perhaps it's not myth, but instead truth.

It's kind of the like the myth of evolution. Individual adapt, it is adaptation that takes place not evolution. If you want a quick logical way that super smart experts seem to overlook then realize that if man came from apes then apes would no longer exist. There you go, there is your simple answer. If you want more answer then do as the Bible notes and look around at the beaeuty of God. One of the Darwinists on Stiens' Expelled documentary said organisms rode on the back of crystals. Seriously? You buy this one? So let's see these organisms somehow turned into fruit and vegetable bearing plants for all living creatures to eat which just happen to grow at a much faster rate of speed then other non-fruit or vegetable bearing plant life, oh and this plant life also just happens to be the perfect size for humans and other animals to eat off of them versus 100ft tall redwoods with the exception of plam trees that bear coconuts, oh but wait they drop them to the ground when they are ripe. Huh, seems all happenstance to me. Seems to be the result of a single celled organism to me, Definitely got to be evolution. The winds, storms bringing water to the plants, yep there is no design what so ever. Perhaps the Grand Canyon exists around ever river that has covered the Earth, nope that's not right either, well what gives. I know it's math right? Everything in the universe can be broken down via mathematical computations, but perhaps that and the significance on numbers in the Bible is all happenstance to because that takes no intelligence at all right? Everything Biblical prophecy made has come true even currently with Russia and Iran getting together (See Ezekiel 38-39) perhaps that 2,500 year old prediction is just a major coincidence as well. The Bible has proven time and time again to be historically accurate. Perhaps that is another coincidence. This include a rock in Saudi Arabia formerly known as Midia that mysteriously has water erosion down the center of it splitting this 60ft tall rock in two. Maybe it was concentrated rainfall right? The evidence for God can be seen from the time you open your eyes in the morning to the time you close them at night and it doesn't stop there. I urge you all to investigate God. For the one true God of Israel certainly exists and he has a plan for you. He loves you and died for you so you don't have to.

Debra

Robert,

Where did you get your information? The things you've stated may be items of faith or belief by some Christians, but they are not accepted facts of the scientific community. I assume that you have some sources as you make claims (such as the one about today's technology not being able to reproduce a copy of the shroud of Turin) that are not strictly faith based but are also testable and fall into the realm of science.

It is those claims, the ones in the realm of science, that I shall address here.

As for the shroud of Turin, in 2000 Walter McCrone won the American Chemical Society's Award in Analytical Chemistry for his work on the shroud. His work discovered, as did the carbon tests done in 1988, that the shroud was indeed a medieval forgery. The image was made with red ochre and vermilion paint with a collagen tempera binder. The fact that he won an award means that at least a majority of chemists believe his scientific work was sound. The shroud is a forgery.

Your paragraph about the Epic Gilgamesh is a little difficult to understand, but from what I do understand you are claiming that the story of Gilgamesh postdates that of Noah and that the Noah story is more in depth. There also seems to be a claim that if there is more than one story about a great flood we should then take this as proof that there was indeed a great flood.

The Epic of Gilgamesh certainly predates the bible. It is amoung the oldest written literature ever found. However, there are multiple flood stories from many cultures around the world. This, to me certainly proves something happened. It does not prove, however, the biblical story. There are many reasons why multiple flood stories could exist. An impact of a meteor flooding coastal areas is one theory. Multiple floods occurring in different regions at different points in history seems to me to be the most likely explanation.

Multiple flood stories actually seems to distract from the evidence that the bible story is true. If Noah and family were truly the only human survivors (and geneticists say that re-population of the world would not be possible from a handful of humans and one breeding pair of animals), would not all the stories be the same?

No one, not one evolutionist, especially not Darwin himself, ever said humans come from apes. Let me repeat this.

HUMANS DID NOT EVOLVE FROM APES!

There, now I feel better.

However, humans did evolve alongside apes from a common ancestor that lived in trees, and to the uneducated eye would seem a lot like some of the apes we have around today. But they no longer exist. They evolved. They are the common ancestor of the human, the chimpanzee, the gorilla, the orangutans, and the bonobos.

Your other statements about evolution are seriously confusing and ungrammatical. However, there seems to be a mention of individual adaption and later some assumption that certain foods grew so that animals could eat it.

Individuals do adapt. This is how evolution takes place. This is how we arrived at the wondrous beauty and seemingly designed ecosystem.

The first life forms were one celled organisms that evolved into the flora and fauna we see today. Plants became plants from individual adaptations that over long periods of time became photosynthesis.

The plants we know today are the way they are because of evolution, not happenstance.

Fruit and vegetable plants are not 100ft tall because there are evolutionary reasons for them to be the way they are. Fruits and vegetables don't grow to feed animals (although some do exploit this feature which allows their seeds to be spread further in the excrement of well fed animals), they grow for the plant.

As for your claims of historical accuracies in the bible, there are certainly archaeological digs going on around the middle east at this time to try to prove the historical accuracy of the bible. What we are finding out is that the bible often does have some historical facts in it. Cities exist where the bible says they should, conflicts destroyed some cities when the bible says they should have been destroyed. Kings and queens discussed in the bible have real life counter parts. However, we are also finding inaccuracies, cities that don't exist, people there is no evidence for, no evidence of conflict where it should have been. The bible, like Roman, Egyptian, Greek, and Mesopotamian texts, is proving to be exactly what scholars expected it to be: a written account of the oral traditions of a culture handed down for centuries.

I have never heard of the rock in Saudi Arabia of which you speak. Perhaps you could provide a current name or website. However, I see no reason why erosion of a rock should suggest that the biblical flood story is true. Even if the erosion is water erosion (which is not necessarily the case, wind erosion can do a lot of damage over time), there needs to be more information on what kind of rock this is (that may also give an idea of how old it is, Saudi Arabia has gone threw many climate changes over the millennia), where in the country it is and what it is exposed to. Some deserts get a lot more rain then you might believe and over time this erodes.

You state that the problem is that people don't explore enough, this is true of science as well as religion. The evidence of evolution is there all around you all of the time it just takes opening your mind to see it. It is no less wondrous or beautiful than the god myth. I urge you to explore it.

kamala

more power to anyone that finds what works for them, life is hard enough. Christians, can u live with that?
Otherwise, PLEASE respect my beliefs... don't "pray" for me, i am fine (should i pray for you because u are blind?). Don't try to convert me, no one like a bully. I am whole (well, as whole as anyone can be). thanks in advance...

p.s. can u be a good christian and respect individuals regardless of their personal beliefs? If not, than u are judging, and don't judge lest ye be judged. u are fine and i am fine, k?

Achems Razor

Debra:

Very good work! You beat me to it, and in fact did an excellent job!

I might also suggest right here on TDF watch Leonardo Da Vinci.

You could also Google you tube, Leonardo-Da-Vinci man behind the shroud. :D

Alex

Debra hi!
I am a Christian and I agree with you on the shroud, but I disagree with most else. Before I deal with your statements, I’d like to ask two questions:
From what you know, is it possible that some of your views that contradict the Bible are wrong? Second question, *did you ever consider* that maybe all of your views that contradict the Bible could be wrong- irrelevant if they are or not? Answer these questions only to yourself.
Now, you write to Robert:
1) “but from what I do understand you are claiming that the story of Gilgamesh postdates that of Noah and that the Noah story is more in depth.” (and later on)
“The Epic of Gilgamesh certainly predates the bible. It is amoung the oldest written literature ever found.”
------I agree that it seems that the Biblical account of the flood postdates Gilgamesh. But this, actually doesn’t change anything. See the following. From “Answers in Genesis” by Nozomi Osanai:
“The second hypothesis—that the Genesis account is dependent on the Epic—has significant difficulties. According to this hypothesis, the author of the Genesis account would have needed to revise the Epic as follows: change the concept of god from polytheism to absolute monotheism and add the strong, consistent moral motivation for the Flood by establishing God as righteous and gracious; write clear descriptions that show the Flood as universal in order to make the whole account consistent; change the character of the survivors to portray them as righteous and worthy to be saved; specify the survivors as four couples who are capable of replenishing the human race; add their descendants’ genealogy which agrees with the secular historical records; add the details about animals being included in pairs of every kind for the preservation of the created kinds; improve the source of the Flood from only rain to rain and underground water sufficient to cover the whole world; specify the duration of the Flood from only six days and nights and unspecified days to more than one year which is adequate for a universal Flood; redesign the structure of the Ark from the unstable cube to the ideal safe design for floating; change the order and the kind of the birds of the test flights in order to make them more logical; specify seven days interval between each test flight; and add the account of the freshly plucked olive leaf which is botanically realistic and more informative than the Epic.”
Wouldn’t this kind of supposed “revision” be extremely unlikely, weird?? Think carefully about it.
Later down the author continues:
“If all human races are descendents of Noah’s three sons, the survivors from the universal Flood, and the two accounts had derived from the same historical event, the reason the accounts have many similarities is explicable. As K. A. Kitchen states, it is likely that “The Hebrew and Babylonian accounts may go back to a common ancient tradition, but are not borrowed directly from each other.” Even though the Genesis account was written in Hebrew which was used later than Akkadian in which the Epic was written, the historical event of the Flood was much earlier than the publication of the Epic.”

“Lambert also writes, “Myths are the final outcome of millennia of development, and have often lost much of their original seriousness and purpose. This can be seen in the case of Babylonian myth.” Thus, while one may say with some confidence that the flood account in the Gilgamesh Epic tablet XI traces back to the Sumerian story, it is more difficult to say whether that story reflects an historic event. If it does, the report of the event has been seriously distorted.”

The bottom line: The Biblical account seems to be by far the informative one in comparison, derivative of an original “source” since the manner and details of the account presents an attempt not to record myth/hearsay but the original events themselves.
It would be normal if all descendants of Noah would pass down the event of the flood through oral tradition (giving birth to the Gilgamesh Epic). This of course, would take its toll on the initial story/events. Some may appear to be local, but others not, although their details may seem to describe the same event. BUT, regardless if one accepts God’s providence or not, the original account could have been saved and passed from those previous to Noah, to Noah, to Moses. From Institute of Creation Research (ICR) -“The Flood of Noah and the Flood of Gilgamesh” (without footnotes)
by Frank Lorey, M.A.: “the probability exists that the Biblical account had been preserved either as an oral tradition, or in written form handed down from Noah, through the patriarchs and eventually to Moses, thereby making it actually older than the Sumerian accounts which were restatements (with alterations) to the original.”
Also:
“Indeed the Hebrews were known for handing down their records and tradition. The Book of Genesis is viewed for the most part as an historical work, even by many liberal scholars, while the Epic of Gilgamesh is viewed as mythological. The One-source Theory must, therefore, lead back to the historical event of the Flood and Noah's Ark. To those who believe in the inspiration and infallibility of the Bible, it should not be a surprise that God would preserve the true account of the Flood in the traditions of His people. The Genesis account was kept pure and accurate throughout the centuries by the providence of God until it was finally compiled, edited, and written down by Moses. The Epic of Gilgamesh, then, contains the corrupted account as preserved and embellished by peoples who did not follow the God of the Hebrews.”
(Note that the Christians have many more reasons why they believe it is from Noah, but that’s another interesting story…)

2) “There also seems to be a claim that if there is more than one story about a great flood we should then take this as proof that there was indeed a great flood.”
------a) Mmmm… the usual word play among “proof” and “evidence”. “Proof” is a matter of belief, a belief based on all indications available, which point to an invisible or partly invisible or absent fact? One can accept the outcome of the indications, one may not, that is, always need more. So in this sense, such a strong indication (many stories of a great flood) pointing to a factual world flood that took place, can be considered “proof”, especially if I realize that **I don’t have any sound reason to believe otherwise!!!** Keep that in mind; this is what people don’t seem to realize. Now, if we add to that more indications/evidence we can talk about very strong proof (the point coming up), while someone else may talk about very strong evidence. Proof has to do with where one draws the line which borders “could be” and “is”. The effort should be to draw that line at the most reasonable place as possible! Common sense helps define “reasonable”. Think about that.
b) Proof of such a great flood is found in sedimentary rock, the efficiency of water to cover all the earth 1.7 miles if the surface was levelled out, from fossils, fossil fuels, rock strata, pure sedimentary layers, submarine canyons, land canyons, Ancient accounts of a navigable Atlantic, plate tectonics (see details in link later on).

3) “However, there are multiple flood stories from many cultures around the world. This, to me certainly proves something happened. It does not prove, however, the biblical story.”
------Wait a minute… this “proves” (?) to you “something happened”?? That’s a twist! Or a contradiction if one prefers. So now these stories are indeed proof to you that something happened. We agree :D ! A legitimate question: why do you generalize saying “something happened” when in fact the stories you consider as proof speak of or imply a great flood?? Why don’t you openly say “a great flood happened” instead of “something happened”?? But let’s go on.
2nd part coming up.

Alex

For Debra (4th part)
12) “The plants we know today are the way they are because of evolution, not happenstance.”
-----If you ask Richard Dawkins, the two are one and the same! Remember, evolution has no direction, no foresight and no purpose. It's fuel is the gene pool and the engine is natural selection.

13) “Fruit and vegetable plants are not 100ft tall because there are evolutionary reasons for them to be the way they are.”
------How quaint. If we assume ET is true (putting an effort :D ), then one can say that there are evolutionary reasons that everything is the way it is and not somehow different.

14) “Fruits and vegetables don’t grow to feed animals (although some do exploit this feature which allows their seeds to be spread further in the excrement of well fed animals), they grow for the plant.”
-----Wow! But even if we accept plants growing “for the plant(s)” (….), this again can does not negate that this takes place…. again for the feeding of animals or even just giving colourful beauty to the world! Try to understand this.

15) Reading the articles in the link, I’ll simply comment on this (under "Vascular land plants 1")
"Before totally colonising the land, plants moved into the intertidal zones. Like modern plants today, they had developed cuticles and stomata and due to the multicellular structure of these organisms - a vascular system, albeit a simple one.
Living on land meant that plants needed to develop means by which to minimise water loss - and hence a cuticle was essential."
------a) This is complete hearsay, speculation, nothing more.
b) Carefully see the words between the asterisks I placed:
“Living on land *meant that*…. *needed to develop means by which*”
Even this points -common sense- to that they were created to pursue life by adapting! Built in purpose/”instinct”. But no matter what though, keep God out of His picture, right. A shame and not just that.

16) “However, we are also finding inaccuracies, cities that don’t exist, people there is no evidence for, no evidence of conflict where it should have been.”
------This is wrong (that is, in box thinking): “finding-inaccuarcies” and “cities that don’t exist - people there is no proof for - evidence for conflict where it should have been”. Do you realize why it’s wrong? How did they “find” (…) these inaccuracies, when they claim to find nothing?? I mean, there is nothing that proves the cities, people, and conflicts didn’t exist! NOTHING! They just don’t have -for various reasons- finds on them! …Yet! So??? There were many aspects of the Bible that archaeology thought to be inaccurate, fairy tales, etc. but time always proved them wrong. Are you aware of this? This “finding inaccuracies” and the rest is wrong, not scientific thought.

17) “The bible, like Roman, Egyptian, Greek, and Mesopotamian texts, is proving to be exactly what scholars expected it to be: a written account of the oral traditions of a culture handed down for centuries.”
-----Yes, and?? How does oral tradition negate the -at the same time- written tradition?? If you knew the whole story on the Bible Debra you’d see God’s provision behind it in total! A studied Christian would be a great big fool if he could not consent to that God’s provision was behind the books of The Bible and His inspiration within it. The amazing facts, individually and all together, make this point clear to the honest seeker of truth.

18. “I have never heard of the rock in Saudi Arabia of which you speak. Perhaps you could provide a current name or website.”
------Robert did not state it properly. He was not talking about the flood, but of another find (of the many!) when referring to the rock at Horeb.

19) “It (evolution) is no less wondrous or beautiful than the god myth. I urge you to explore it.”
-------a) You should try it yourself sometime. :D Do you know how you sound?
b) By the way, evolution is not a myth, but a religion for atheists, occasionally theists convert to it :D
The end :D

May God Who would love to save your soul, give you His increase.

Alex

For Debra (2nd part)
4) “There are many reasons why multiple flood stories could exist. An impact of a meteor flooding coastal areas is one theory.”
------a) You speak of one meteor simultaneously causing multiple floods. This is not the issue, but whether a world flood took place or not, that is, not if God or meteor caused it.
b) These stories never mention something like a giant star-like rock, or fireball falling from the sky (a meteor). Why would an oral or written tradition leave the most important fact out?? Why would all of them do?? How could they?? I mean, they keep an account of the cause of the flood (God/gods), why not the means? The fact that they speak of God/gods may imply that the cause was invisible, again destroying the meteor idea.

5) “Multiple floods occurring in different regions at different points in history seems to me to be the most likely explanation.”
------Really?? Why does it seem the “likely” explanation? Likely to what? There is too much evidence for the opposite.

6) “Multiple flood stories actually seems to distract from the evidence that the bible story is true.”
------Distract?? We are not talking about “multiple flood stories” but “world flood stories”. These, in fact, add to the validity of the Biblical account of a great world flood, and some of them also to the other factors of the Biblical account such as: a) the name of the leader/father figure/prophet -Noah! b) his family of 8 members!! But also, c) God/gods involved!! Sorry, no mention in any of them of a meteor, a volcano eruption, not even an earthquake!! Must see the accounts and compare, but also the evidence mentioned above in point 2b.

7) “If Noah and family were truly the only human survivors (and geneticists say that re-population of the world would not be possible from a handful of humans and one breeding pair of animals), would not all the stories be the same?
------a) No, most likely not. Why would they be if they were originally based on oral traditions and civilization had spread all over? Facts are influenced and change from mouth to mouth. Normal.
b) See the human geological tree.
c) Debra, What geneticist said this?? Geneticists cannot disprove that such a re-population is possible.
Look at the first answer found in WikiAnswers.

3rd part coming up

Alex

For Debra (3rd part)
8. “However, humans did evolve alongside apes from a common ancestor that lived in trees, and to the uneducated eye would seem a lot like some of the apes we have around today. But they no longer exist. They evolved. They are the common ancestor of the human, the chimpanzee, the gorilla, the orangutans, and the bonobos.”
-------Oh wow! What proof! :D Come on Debra! Where’s your proof?? You just put that out there like that?? At least Robert tries to provide some proof for his view. Is Robert or anyone else suppose to take your word for it? Or is this what you did (take someone’s word for it)? There is only microevolution/adaptation, no macroevolution (read “God’s undertaker/Has science buried God?”)! Sorry, but don’t be gullible (no offence).

9) “Individuals do adapt. This is how evolution takes place. This is how we arrived at the wondrous beauty and seemingly designed ecosystem.”
-------You really believe that? You can’t see a Creator? Well, you are of course entitled to your views.

10) “The first life forms were one celled organisms that evolved into the flora and fauna we see today.”
------That's a fundamental axiom of evolution theory (ET). Evolution necessarily assumes that life developed from lower complexity to the higher complexity we observe today. This is an assumption. The fact is, we never saw one celled organism evolve into the flora and fauna we see today!

11) “Plants became plants from individual adaptations that over long periods of time became photosynthesis.”
------- It's a mixture of theorising and backwards extrapolations. ET has seeds appearing in the Fammenian period, a subdivision of the Devonian. I think again the direction is low-to-high complexity, although the seed itself is not really an organism but rather just a survival and proliferation formation.
The way these things are "established" is usually something like this: Someone digs up something that looks like a fossil. It's embedded in a rock formation that, according to geologists, is x million years old. Thus, the fossil belongs to an organism that must've lived in that era, x million years ago. And on that basis, we create a chart with timelines, sub-eras etc and everything else we discover must fit into that system.
Proof? Other than what I just said, I don't know of any other evidence.
Also, according to the current evolutionary view, plants developed independently from animals, and the separation is thought to have occurred some 3,000,000,000 years ago, before the appearance of eukaryotic cells. The earliest "plant" cells are the cyanobacteria, a rather primitive prokaryotic organism which uses water as a reducing agent in photosynthesis. When we talk about photosynthesis, we generally think of oxygenic photosynthesis (conversion of light energy to oxygen). That's what plants, algae and some bacteria do today. According to ET, the earlier types of photosynthesis produced sulfur.

4th part coming up.

Leebo

I love how atheists know more about religion than religious people. Atheists love to argue the so called facts/gospels of relgion. Atheists shouldnt try to impose there beleif or lack there of onto religeous peeople because it makes them just as bad as christians (for example) for trying to impose god on anyone/everyone else, instead they should just have an inner smugness knowing that the bible and other holy books do a god job at contradicting them selves.

Talya

I really love this documentary. It reminds me that my decision to leave the church was a good one. Thank you, Vlatko, for linking to this.

Alex

Well, people love what they think they need.
God bless!

Debra

Alex,

Wow! I will try and address all of your comments, but it is a lot to cover.

1) I think I may have given you the wrong impression in my explanation of the Epic of Gilgamesh and the story of Noah in the bible. I do not think that the bible story or the Epic of Gilgamesh need be dependent directly on one another, I was simply making the point that there is no reason to suppose that the bible story (much edited over the last two thousand years) is in any way superior to the Sumerian one, just because it comes from a book some now hold sacred.

Your last paragraph on this point is not one I can easily address as it describes why those who have faith that their god is the only God believe that the Noah story is superior to the Gilgamesh account. I am not denying your right to believe it, just the claim that science agrees with you.

2) Your play on the words proof and evidence do not change their actual meaning in the scientific sense. Geologists do not agree that there was a world-wide flood around the time of Noah, although there is evidence for a very large flood around the Black Sea and this is what may account for the Noah myth. The only way Moses could write about a world-wide flood (are you one of the Christians who agree with Jewish tradition that Moses wrote the first five books of the bible? Anyway, any writer of the story will do) is if he knew the "whole world" existed. More likely this is a local flood myth which leaves easy explanations of why lions don't live on Mount Ararat where Noah supposedly let one breeding pair of each animal go. It also helps explain genetic diversity as we could not have the large populations of animals we do today from such a small breeding stock.

3) You say: A legitimate question: why do you generalize saying “something happened” when in fact the stories you consider as proof speak of or imply a great flood?? Why don’t you openly say “a great flood happened” instead of “something happened”??

My answer: I believe a great flood happened. It was great, but it didn't cover the entire world. It happened in many places all over the world in different generations, just like has happened in the last 500 years. These floods occurring now disrupt the lives of people living in the area, they record them and recount the stories to future generations. Why should the preceding 2500 be any different? It's just that our records of these floods are now called "news reports" instead of "oral tradition".

4) The theory of a coastal flood caused by meteor is only one theory, and it isn't my favourite, but it is plausible, and some myths (South American come to mind) do mention fire coming from the sky before the flood.

5) It is quite amusing to me that I am expected to provide proofs for a statement like "seems to me to be the most likely" while you get away with claims of "too much evidence for the opposite". What evidence? From reputable scientific sources? I can not accept church sources based on faith, but am willing to provide much evidence of a scientific nature should you do the same.

6) Again, your evidence is from faith based sources who start with their conclusions. Some of their statements are easily proven wrong using Google. Several South American flood myths cite fire in the sky. A few Chinese flood myths also report fire from above.

7) Okay, I really have to get to bed and will try to answer more later, but answersingensis and wikianswers? These are not reputable websites... Try something that ends in .edu I'll provide some a bit later. In fact, google farming. You can not get a long lived herd of cows out of one breeding pair never mind repopulate the earth with them!

Asa

LOL guys to you all Christians who have the time to answer and speak to convince people who are opposing Jesus.Dont you know that things of the spirit are only revealed to people who seek God?

Let these people be!

charlesovery

HHmmm, everyone on here argueing over the same nonsense crap. Nonchristians stating hisotrical facts to why Jesus and the religion is bogus. Christians using parable writings from the bible itself to make their points. Quite ridiculuos to me, especially when this documentary showed the one fact that is in the bible that disproves it all. In Hebrew ch. 8 Verse 4 it states exactly what this documentary showed and yet non of you, believers and nonbelievers, have even discussed this.

I find it more interesting that once the issue has been raised noone wants to even discuss it at all. Allow me to explain...

You can not prove anything that is based on faith...EVER! However, neither side can prove nor disprove that spirituality even exists or not. This is why Asa on Oct 17th wrote the comment and stated: "LOL guys to you all Christians who have the time to answer and speak to convince people who are opposing Jesus.Dont you know that things of the spirit are only revealed to people who seek God?" Once the idea of it has been weighed the christians fall back into their comfort zone of, even though there is no proof and I can not prove this myself, I will just state things that they can't be a part of because we are obviously superior than them. Hince the part of the message Asa wrote, "Dont you know that things of the spirit are only revealed to people who seek God?" This is exactly what that means. The religion seperates us naturally and causes us to fight over stupid crap. We all have the ego complex but the "christian" movement applies it for more than any other form of group think ever. Yet the nonbelievers don't even recognize this fact either. Even when it is stated right in fornt of your face.

People need to do just leave each other alone. The truth will make itself known soon and I feel for those that have waisted their time pissing off others because of their own beliefs. Facts are facts and they will not be disproven no matter how strong you think your faith in anything is. Faith, therefore, is the doom of civilization as it obviously restricts and deprives mankinds progress. Knowledge truely is power but you can not achieve it if you have clouded your mind with something that you can not prove and that is something that people refer to as faith.

Take this for example; I am not a "christian" and nor will I ever become one. Religions of this world are control by fear tools that allow people to recognize their own consciousness to determine whether there is a higher power above us or not. Hince the power of group think! To me this doesn't matter at all. The spiritual nonsense is contradicting in its own terms so I choose not to participate. That being stated allow me to state that it really doesn't matter if Jesus was a real person or not. What he supposedly taught was correct and the way we should be to each other. Thomas Jefferson, you know one of the great fathers of America, took the bible and stripped the spiritual nonsense from it and called it The Moral Teachings of Jesus. In other words there is good in the bible and that is the moral fiber of it not the spiritual nonsense that noone can prove nor disapprove!

Amanda Woods

To the person who said.."April 7th, 2009 at 22:41
There is plenty of evidence that Jesus lived. We are called to walk by faith. If christ was a hoax as this film claims, what purpose did it serve. All of the apostles except John were brutally murdered or martyred. Would these men be willing to die for someone who did not exist. I trust God. To undermine christian believes just because mister Flemming faith was lost is absurd."

...funny. Muslims believe jesus was a prophet...BUT they believe so strongly what they are told ..they are willing to blow themselves up. and DIE for their beliefs...
...martyers..for Allah.

I used to be a christian too... isnt it sad that i spent most of my life living in FEAR, AND GUILT. no matter what i did. I pray that if there is a God. you open your eyes, and are free from the stress of trying to reach an unrealistic expectation.

Tim

Christians and atheists may disagree on a lot of issues, but we should always remember that at least we're not Scientologists. And really, that's what is important.

Charles B.

Amanda: I'm so sorry that you felt like you lived your life in fear and guilt while you were a Christian. I would think you would feel much more so outside of the faith.

Christ provides freedom from fear and freedom from guilt, but we do need to repent for sin and live a life that is as pure as we can live; if we fail in one way or another, then try try again. Jesus told us to fogive our brothers that offend us 70 X 7 times (490 times) DAILY! How much more so is He willing to forgive our very human hearts Himself without judgement when we ask Him to? Daily. Or more in my case! ;-)

I'm not sure what more to say, other than "Go deeper."

Julia

I love this documentary. As a X-Christian I went through the same droughts as he did and I was told I was going to hell for it. I am not afraid anymore, I will not be bullied anymore by a religion that rules through fear rather than honesty. I learned about the other gods from history and found a new religion that admits there's many paths of faith that all result in the same destination. We never say were the true religion, nor our god and goddess is the true gods and other are not. We just accept people for who they are and let them make their own choices. We don't convert or hate people because they don't agree with us. Yes I'm now a Pagan, and will die one.

stigmata

Scientology is even more believable than abrahamic non-sense.

Tim

I think ANYTHING is more believable than Scientology.

Tyler

It's simple. Religion is mind control.

Daniel

When One Person Suffers From A Delusion It Is Called Insanity,
When Many People Suffer From A Delusion It Is Called Religion.

charlesovery

Yes Charles B lets go deeper!

The Christian Faith is supposedly based on Christs teachings and yet the bible subjects the thought of fearing God over 20 times. It even talks about the gifts you will recieve in fearing god and what a righteous lifestyle you will live with the ultimate goal of spending your after life in heaven. In heaven you are to be in a place of peace without hunger or the needs that we as humans must acquire everyday to live. However, if you do not fear God then you will be lost in a life of evil and cast into hell for the second death, which is away from this peaseful place called Heaven.

The word was in the beginning and the word was good and true, the bible states. It also states that god is good and just and gave us free will and loves us unconditionally through his son Jesus Christ. This was why I gave up his son for us! He loves so much that he had to create a way for us to get into since he cannot be in the presence of sin nor evil. Now Satan was the creator of sin and was sinning since the beginning. Now remember the word was in the beginning, true, and good. The bible also states that he gave us free will to choose as we please. However if we do not choose god then we die in a lake of fire called Hell. Um....that is a condition so he must not love us too much. Satan is considered evil and a sinner in the beginning as the the word says and yet in the book of Job he appears before god in which god points him out. Hhhmmm another contradiction.

The point is this: With the presence of Satan and hell there would be no reason to fear such a conditional loving god! So there is an element of fear of living in guilt to please someone that only loves you conditionally. There is no free will at all! It is all about the fear to place on something that is not even provable and is just speculation and that is why it is called faith and blind faith it is!

john

The world has gone MAD!!! there is NO GOD not now not ever it is only weak minded peoples belief's. they obviously cant think for themselve's and seek guidence from other's. YOU ARE SHEEP, followers of stronger minded individual's. If a SO CALLED Prophet said do something you will, BUT WHY is he a prophet??? Because another person told you so!!!! If someone does something bad there evil??? if they do something good there angel's??? you live you die the bit in between is yours to do with as you see fit..I DONT NEED anyone or anything to see this. I see sky, stars, water, earth. I'm NOT stupid & WONT have the wool pulled over my eye's...I hope we leave this planet & religion behind 1 day just so we can forget this rubbish, we could then be great as a race & move forward......Remember it's MY opinion NOT a belief.......

Tim

John, I almost agree with what you say, but calling personal "weak minded" "SHEEP" isn't going to change minds. It just makes you seem angry and rude.

Then again, when it comes to religion, rational discussion never convinced anyone of anything either.

Tim

Sorry, meant to say "calling people."

john

I know exactly what you mean mate but people havent noticed/listened for years & I doubt it's ever going to change...you see they forget what they should be celebrating & thats life itself & taking the human race in to the future NOT MOANING about the past.....

Regina

a lot of anger and hate here from a lot of people who have no God.

Mark

Hi Vlatko, is there something wrong with this documentary, it does not seem to be showing any more?

Keep up the good work, you are doing a fantastic job, I appreciate it!!

Tim

In case you haven't noticed Regina, there's a lot of anger and hate coming from everywhere. Can you honestly say you love these people who "have no God"?

Reb

Sure there is a god. The christian faith alone has thousands of them, one for every christian denomination and one for every version of the bible. Christians themselves can't agree on scripture and what they mean among other things so the creation of one christian cult after another continues on and on. I believe the last count I saw on this issue was almost 3000 various sects of this so-called NT religion. What does the bible say about a house divided against itself?

Holy books are not worth the ink it takes to print them. If there is a god, he wouldn't go near any of these sects/cults.

charlesovery

Regina- is it always hate everytime that someone wants to discuss something that both parties diagree on? Labelling others as such is a hypocrisy in the fact that you are doing nothing more than judging others. Something you are not suppose to do!

john

what makes me laugh is the fact everyone think's people who have no belief's like God's & the like need saving?? I need nothing from everyone I make my own decision's & I make my own mistake's. Why do I need a God? I'm not angry nor am I oppesed to anybody having a belief, I just dont think people listen when I say I dont believe in anything written about so called saviour's, prophet's & God's etc...The world wasnt made by a God so get over it? simple....

john

oppesed lol...I mean opposed, sorry.

zen

we are all at the not even the shallowest of depts...
we have to Deny our selves and follow G0d.

have faith...

TC

Why do so few consider the 4th L: "legend". Yes, there was likely a street preacher in Israel named Yeshua. That would be no more surprising than a plumber in Jersey named Tony.

To get people to think that this guy was the son of the all-knowing creator of the universe requires a bit more solid evidence than 4 contradictory, anonymously written stories.

CK

Religion (mainly Christianity and Muslim) has poisoned and corrupted millions of people who are violent, racist and intolerant of anyone who believes in something different. Just reading this blog proves my point. I'm an athiest who is constantly attacked for that. I don't go around telling people they're going to hell and they're sinners, or they need to repent, believe in him and the word, ask for forgiveness, or that they need to watch their back, and so on - what BS. Religious people constantly prove their intolerance and think their behavior is acceptable.

Reb

CK, well said by you left out the zionist jews who still think they are the OT gods chosen. The world has sat back for 60+ years while those mongrels have butchered and stolen the land that rightfully belongs to the Palestinian people. That horrid god didn't give them shit and they are just like their fathers before them, thieves, liars and murderers. Islam and christianity are offshoots of this hideous cult and like the parent, the offspring are surely cut from the same rotten cloth. This is just another major reason the full contents of the dead sea scrolls has never been released. How will the religious world ever deal with telling millions of idiots all the killing, hate and racism was for nothing but lies and the advancement of the evil rich? Did you know that all of the researchers, archaeologists, translators etc. are required to sign 'non-disclosure' agreements on certain items? Finally, some are refusing and perhaps in a few more years the full disclosure of the truth of these god-awful cults will be known to the world. This will most likely be the most vicious fight the world has known because the 'masters' who control the masses by way of religion also control the wealth of the world. Even those who are trapped in these 'religions' don't want the truth. They are so mind controlled they can't function without the security blanket of a religion created just for the purpose of keeping them docile, loyal and ignorant.

I honestly do not know what the hell it will take to wake people up but it better be soon. When people follow perverted teachings they become perverted themselves. Hate and murder ordained by a god is justifiable to the religiously insane. History as far back as has been recorded proves this fact over and over. As it has been said "the only thing we learn from history is the fact we never learn from history". Maybe this planet is the insane asylum of the universe.

charlesovery

Adam-July 9th, 2009 at 21:32
I am really tired of the argument that Christianity is poison and meant to control the “masses”. Where in the Bible does it say we must follow a set of rules?

Well Adam, in Matthew Jesus states, "follow ande obey the laws of the land." Later Jesus states, "if you love me and the father then you would obey his laws." It is implied all throughout the bible that if you don't follow the laws then you will receive the ultimate punishment in the second death. Ummm....the religion is all about control by fear in this regard and making others obey these laws or die. So you tell me then how it doesn't say to follow a set of rules?

Seriously you need to do your research before speaking!

charlesovery

Ck- Absolutely a true point and then they wonder why we refer to them as self rightous!

mandy

what is judgement? do I not make a judgement every day of my life? what is good, what is bad, what is better? As far as I know, the bible did not say, "tell other people that they are wrong and you are right" it just said "non judgement". My truth is that I do not know who is right and who is wrong. If we follow the bible or don't follow the bible...does the word judgement not just mean "acceptance"?
Could the commandment that says that we must accept no other idol not mean "other than yourself" Jesus was supposed to have said "the kingdom of god lives in you" and something about us all being equal in the eyes of god? Equality does not mean sameness, so could that not mean, accepting things just as they are? non-judgementally? and accepting that translation of other peoples words (an historic fact) are purely subjective of our own perceptions does that not point to something? Could we not make the world a better place if we all stopped trying to make each other wrong and just get on with the process of creating peace in ourselves and becoming "non-judgemental" not only of others, but also of ourselves?...just a thought!

mandy

Sorry...meant 'non-judgement' means acceptance...Peace!

bibleman

First of all Charlesovery, if Jesus wanted to control by fear, why did he give us free will? Wouldn't he just come down and make everyone worship him? You've obviously studied the Bible, surley you remember 2 Tim. 1:17 "God hath not given us a spirit of fear but of power, love and a sound mind." If God did not give us a spirit of fear then why would he want to control us by fear? Doesn't make much sense does it? Maybe you should make reference to all the Bible before you make a comment like that (at least review the concordance).

Reb

bibleman, and what a childish revolting username that is. ALL religions rule by fear. Did you ever hear the tale about the burning hell that your jayzus will throw us into? Aren't we to fear the one who can destroy both body and soul? Didn't jc say to "believe or burn"?

In the disturbing parable of the talents, the 'master' who represents your god-awful god, gives 3 of his servants (slaves) some of his ill-gotten gains before leaving on a robbing expedition. Two of them take his filthy lucre and gain more. He praises them. The third one was terrified of this monster so he hid his so he wouldn't lose it. He received a tongue lashing and this is what he said to this ghoul:

"‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed. ‘And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.’ “But his master answered and said to him, ‘You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed. ‘Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest. ‘Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.’

“For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. “Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Read this shit. First, the slave was so fearful because he knew this man gathered and reaped where he had not sow or planted. He was a robber. He admitted it and also to being a "hard man". The master was furious that the little slave had not put his money with the rotten bankers so he could earn interest!!! He didn't lose a thing yet wanted more. Bankers are the scum of the earth and usury(interest) is what has put this world into debt! Here your god is on the side of con men and the money he had came from taking what was NOT his. You are the one who needs to read that damn book before you start your preaching.

Lucifer and jayzus are one and the same but you folks are so blind and dumb you can't figure that out.

charlesovery

Hello bibleman,

To answer your question of free will I will copy this from another post that I had made.

The word was in the beginning and the word was good and true, the bible states. It also states that god is good and just and gave us free will and loves us unconditionally through his son Jesus Christ. This was why he gave up his son for us! He loves us so much that he had to create a way for us to get into heaven since he cannot be in the presence of sin nor evil. Now Satan was the creator of sin and was sinning since the beginning. Now remember the word was in the beginning, true, and good. The bible also states that he gave us free will to choose as we please. However if we do not choose god then we die in a lake of fire called Hell. Um….that is a condition so he must not love us too much. Satan is considered evil and a sinner in the beginning as the the word says and yet in the book of Job he appears before god in which god points him out. Hhhmmm another contradiction.

First of all, I am not really sure what comment you are refering to when you said, "Maybe you should make reference to all the Bible before you make a comment like that (at least review the concordance)."

However, what exactly do you think the spirit is? More importantly do you think that only god can give you this spirit? I think not! Fear is an automatic feature of believing in god. Why else would the bible reference fearing god over 200 times and gives examples of spoils that those that have feared god in the past, have received? Without fear there is no understanding of the so-called methods of god at all. THis is stated solely in respect to the fact that there is always a hell or an evil dude runnign around that will ultimately hand you over to the final punishment. If you don't fear god then there is no understanding of right or wrong essentially. So yes it does make sense and the philosophy is very thorough. There is no contradictions like that stated in spritual matters of religion.

Having a spirit of love, power, and a sound mind are not really of the same spirit that you think that god would pass to you. This spirit is accessable by anyone no matter what faith they belong to. In the book Psalms it tells us that love is peaceful, kind, considerate, respectful, loyal and the list continues. This to me is the only true definition of what love really is. Why am I stating this? Because I know and understand that there are good things in the bible that we all could use. However, when it comes to the spiritual matters the concepts written within the bible contradicts itself. As does the verse you quoted from Timothy. The difference is that I see the entirity of the subject just not one verse at a time. So please if you feel the need to challenge me then I will gracefully accept it!

charlesovery

Mandy,

A anytime that you focus on anyones faults...you are judging them. The bible doesn't need to state as it is extremely implied throughout the texts. Just with two children. OIne receives a bike for christmas and the other recieves a Hot Wheel car. Which one, Mandy, will feel better about themselves? You ca find this throughout our society everywhere. Even in church! Listen and observe and you will here this experience from one person and then another experience that sounds better than the first from another person. It is inescapable for our society teaches us to have this sense of competition with one another! Who is better than who or who has better than anyone else. It works both with philosophy matters as it does with materialistic matters.

yavanna

A superb doc. Highly recommended. And some great comments too. Read them all except Alex's cut and paste splurge.

It's very worrying to continue to see people who are often articulate display such bloody mindedness in continuing to believe in easily debunked myths. Evolution is clearly way to slow! Downright scary are the percentages mentioned near the start of the film; of the fundamentalist Christians in America. Because one thing is true. Some prophesies can be self fulfilling as is hinted at in the film with regards to Iraq. There is a truism used often as a joke here in England: America were late for the last two world wars but are going to make up for that by being REALLY punctual for the next one!

Reb

Free will god-style! Those who will not serve him are to be slayed in his presence. Luke 19:27

Believe or burn.

Only a demon could have written such a profane and hateful book. Only the brain damaged could believe it.

mandy

and Charlesovery my friend...in pre-history (before the monetary/better than you system) there was in fact an equality within society that was overwritten by the victors..maybe research 'true' native american philosophy...it opened my eyes! I am afflicted by this monetary curse too...but am working towards one'ness...it has certainly led me to a much more accepting place...not only of others but also myself...and I now look at others (and my own) faults within the bigger picture and see the 'worth' in them...i.e. the drinker on the park bench reminds me not to be like that...how can you put a value on that? it is worth more to me than all the money in the world..remove our blinkers and we are free...peace

charlesovery

Hello Mandy,

I agree with you. At some point in our history something happened that made our societies back then stratified. After that are society became a class system and as time went on and on there were less and less equalitarian systems even in pre-history societies.

Interesting that you should suggest researching native american philosophy...I have been doing so over the past 4 years. You are right the philosophies are diffenantly eye opening. I also believe that we should return to the past time of trade without a specific value on anything!

I like the way you think Mandy!

charlesovery

Yavanna-great point on the wars issue!

Unfortunately I am an American, but more and more of us are becoming weary and sick of our government. Interesting enough is the fact the more and more Americans are moving out of our country because these wars are killing our country and yet there are the dumb ones that still can't see the fact that there is a seperate agenda to it all.

mandy

Then charlesovery...you are on the right path...I wish you well...maybe look at the life-work of David E Stannard..a man after my own heart! speak softly to the ones who dont know and they will listen...'god speed' my friend!

yavanna

Thanks Charles - it was a flippant comment - but although sometimes things are said in jest they can be true.

I`ve been very involved in discussions on other doc's threads and here we have a complete set on new names so HI! TDF huh?

I`m fascinated by "native Americans" and their lifestyle and beliefs (before they were expunged ofc) and truly that system worked. Would it work today? I somehow doubt it - there are simply too many of us. Who wouldn't want to forget today's modern crap and go back to living life as it should be lived (plug me back in - I dont want to remember anything!)

Charles "Unfortunately I am an American" - Don't think like that. I am English and have my own cross to carry. But I totally get where you are coming from, though it seems a bit strange from an outside position that such a strong country cant just say "stuff this" quit all wars - all outside influences, wars, etc etc. Imagine how much stronger and healthy your country would be just from that simple act. Look at China..... THE USA could build a wall round itself tomorrow, start anew. It's big enough and ugly enough to do so.

The national debt / security - illusions.

Maybe we are too far gone (NWO etc) which is really sad. Because the rest of the world is (rather sycophantically) looking upon the US for direction. I was dumbfounded when Gee Dubya got his second term through clear fraud and I was with the world when Obama got the crown and the world was literally joyful. However he has done nothing. Clearly another puppet for the corporations. His main fame is that he is a consummate auto q user and he ISNT GWB. To question or doubt him is apparently racist....

Zeus dammit you yanks save us!

charlesovery

yavanna-The native Amrican culture would not and cannot work in todays money sytem. One would live and the other would parish. Unfortunately if that were to happen the native american culture would just die away, because under the money system that we a bonded to allows corruption at th highest level. Take this Health issue we are having here. It is nothing but a scam and another to suck the dollars from the citizens to improve the profit of health insurance companies. If it wan't about that then the bill wouldn't suggest such measures as EVERYONE has have health insurance or pay a penalty. Look at the statistics for how many and how often people use or need to use their health insurance.

Don't get me wrong i love my country but I hate the governement and he current system we live under. The wars we enter into are bogus and built on lies. Our military is only used as a feeder for corporate means and in turn the corporations bribe our governement officials for more gain and the protection of profit.

yavanna

As we have had a national health system working for many decades it's hard for us to appreciate the problem you guys are having with this Health issue. We pay for it through our taxes and maybe that's where the US is going down the wrong road with the compulsory health insurance angle.

Anyway going way off topic for the doc........

mandy

How glad I am that I live in my world (a world full of hope and possibilities) I would rather not still be on this planet than to go back to the illusion of hoplessness that many people find themselves trapped in.
many times my theories have been called unworkable, even by some of the most learned university professors...who I might hasten to add, became mildley convinced as they began to listen and drop their blind belief in the thought that an ideal society could never return.
Many prophecies throughout history have pointed to the day when all would be well again. all or most religions have predicted this happening.
There are many signs appearing now throughout the world that are pointing to this indeed being a real possibility in our time.
There are far too many prophecies and predictions to list here, so I will stick the the one that for many is the 'most' irrefutable; The science of quantum physics itself has proven to the rate of 9.99999% accuracy that the future of our planet is totally controlled by our thoughts!
Thats a hefty 'big gun' in favour of the possibility of peace in our time! (see 'what the bleep was that' on this site for a further explanation)
I was once a very shallow thinking human being who believed totally that life was hard and then you die and nothing could convince me any other way! I had to reach rock bottom before I opened my eyes. I detested religion, and spirituality to me was a load of old bunkum!
Luckily for me that all changed in a flash. I turned away from science, and I opened my mind! I spent many years in education, searching the esoteric possibilities of our time. I researched the native american philosophy, I researched anything esoteric, but most of all I researched the power and control model that 80% of our planet has been trapped by and the other 20% has been sullied with. Finally I brought it all together when the last offering fell into place..Science had proven through quantum physics that my theories did indeed hold water.
So what I offer now, is backed up and holds water, very well indeed! I might also add that there are many many people on this planet who have arrived at the same conclusion as me...and the number is growing daily...I am grateful and relieved by that!
So my friends the choice is yours...3rd dimension or 4th dimension, the gate is open?
What do you choose? do you still want to stay in a blinkered place with your religions and your theories put forward by others? or do you want to join the growing masses who have had enough of the madness and conducted their own research?, at last there is a possibility to finally take back the asylum from the lunatics, who by the way have been in charge for a few thousand years now (contrary to popular belief).
I do not need to argue this point because I believe that this is happening and it is happening soon! I merely offer you this as a possibility for you to consider, maybe do some first hand research, dont just believe what you are told by others, (dont believe me, go find out for yourselves) the rest is up to you.
I bid you a final farewell my friends and leave it up to you!
'Namaste'

Tim

@Mandy:

1. Quantum physics has proven no such thing. That was something one physicist came up with decades ago, and science has since moved beyond it. Can you even explain how our thoughts supposedly shape reality, or did you just believe it because you liked it? If you actually try to understand quantum physics even on the most basic level, you'll realize that you and many other quantum mystics have completely misinterpreted this science.

2. There are many prophecies pointing to disaster, and they're just as hollow as the ones that predict better days. You can't just pick out all the good ones and decide that they're better because you like them.

3. I'm glad you've picked yourself up from the bottom, but it's obvious that when you "turned away from science" you started believing whatever made you happy. That may be fine for you, but it doesn't make anything you believe true.

mandy

Oh how we try to prove each other wrong! the human infliction...maybe research (as I did) within yourself...and perhaps check out the double slit experiment...If I have learned one thing in my 65 years...it is that as soon as we are on to something positive that makes a difference within the search for peace...some fearful soul needs to try to take it away in order to make themselves feel better...and to avoid losing their own percieved privilages..all will be very apparent soon...and so as to keep my 'thinking' safe...I will let this battle rage on in my absence...maybe 'Tim' if you had researched as deeply and as thoroughly as me you might have a point...but from where I stand...you maybe need to find yourself...and dont be glad that I pulled myself out...maybe look at ways that you can get yourself out too........this is where your energy would do most good...not only for yourself but also for the planet.

Tim

Mandy, I assume you mean "the human AFfliction," and it is not an affliction to prove others wrong. It is very important to prove others wrong. If we didn't try to prove others wrong, we'd never have formed societies. We'd still be walking around doing whatever we want, because no one would tell us what we're doing is wrong. And just because someone is trying to prove you wrong, it doesn't follow that you are right. I am not fearful, I just strongly disagree with you, and you obviously strongly disagree with me. I do not argue to make myself feel better. Truth does not exist to make me happy.

I researched the double slit experiment, and it doesn't support anything you say. It only shows that light can behave as particles and waves. Observing the particles of light is not what changes their behavior. It is the methods we use to observe that cause the changes. We cannot observe anything that small without influencing it. It's not as simple as watching a basketball bounce. Probability waves collapse into measurable quanta when they interact with one another. They do this on their own, without being observed. This is why the universe existed before us. This is why we can see light from stars that could not have existed without us. This is why things exist where there are no people. This is why Schrodinger's Cat will die even if no one is looking inside the box, instead of hovering in some undetermined limbo state. I've done my research (not within myself, but in real scientific sources), and I've found that science supports what I'm saying, and only the mystics disagree.

Thinking happy thoughts is not going to save the world. It takes action. It's not about finding yourself. That's just self-centered thinking.

CK

Reb, hear, hear!

Yavanna

I have to agree with Tim here Mandy. He has made an eloquent response. All I would add is it is a leap of faith you are making. You are replacing one godhead with another. Quantum theory still being in infancy is still a theory however scientific it is described as. In essence you are making a pseudo religious belief out of an abstract scientific theory.

Charles happy to mail you or else just join forums here and make a thread - I can answer that one easily however with one word - disinformation.

Yavanna

point being others can join that discussion etc

charlesovery

yavanna no problem how do I join the forums here?

Yavanna

Top of the page there are blue tabs - further one to right "Forums."

Register with email and yr away.

WaDe

There is proberbly no god, now, stop worrying and get on with your life.

After all, Science is NOT perfect, but, its the ONLY thing we have to get the truth.

http://underworldadventures.com Big Dipper

God is all around us.

Every time you see a date, a day, a week, or a year, that is a christian date, based from the starting point of 0, defined by the existence of God. He is how we measure our lives in time. He dominates the histories, of every cultural heritage. (Who is to say that is about to stop?). He's in the churches, in the bookstore, in the schools and in our documentaries. God is really popular. Everyone wants one. The Romans and Greeks loved em. Even the pagans. And today, whether you believe in God, Allah, Buddha, Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Chac Mool, the sun or The Pope, there is someone somewhere worshipping God in every corner of the planet. Like it or not, we just can't seem to shake off God.

Even me. Without God I wouldn't be able to have these metaphysical conversations about tangent universes. Does God exist? is an eternal question. Surely it is not too far fetched for a man to ask the question "Is there anything else out there?. Not something we can see, or ever will, but just something else?". The answer has to be yes. That is what God is. It is the by-product of a curious mind, and the creation of our imaginations.

Therefore, does God exist? Well, if god didn't exist, then we'd have to invent him.

How do we know that other animals don't have Gods? Hasn't it been proved that animals have imaginations?

I don't believe in Christ. Or the christian God. But it doesn't mean I don't believe in anything. I believe in science. About 200 years ago, the test tube image of science really had a hard time trying to win air time against the really nice old man sitting on a cloud. But that has changed really quickly. Science now offers the ability to amaze and astound, to almost a religious degree. Understanding most of Einstein's writings, and Chaos theory takes such a huge leap of faith in imagination that reality is indeed more incredible than biblical fiction. It provides greater answers to why we are here, and where we have come from.

Right now we all feel the simmering conflict around the world. It is Muslims versus Christians. It is a world tension that is just out there, like it or not. Taking place somewhere, in some shape or form, around the globe. God has brought us massive conflict, which only proves that there are many people out there who have very limited imaginations of themselves.

http://underworldadventures.com Big Dipper

ADAM - you said " I am a born-again Christian. I am free".

I don't understand that. Why would you want to say that? Why would you point out to being free, beyond any other adjective you could have used, or not saying anything at all. It is a bit like going up to someone who says "Hi, how are you doing. I did not fart just now". It would be a weird thing to say, and one that would arouse suspicion. Maybe I smell some doubt from you. Like you are trying to convince someone. Maybe that someone is yourself?

Faith

How come the bible doesn't say anything about child molestation?

Yavanna

Because making rules about how to do sacrifices and how much you can beat your slaves is so much more important. If a certain version of a holy book had made rules about child molestation for instance; then a certain prophet from about say.... 1400 years ago might have been quite rightly dealt with in the accustomed bronze age method....

JOJO

You do know jesus never existed?? he merely a mish-mash of ancient beliefs, mostly Egyptian god Horus, jesus is the usual sun worship.

even if jesus did exsist he clearlt thought the world was ending soon, very soon and that belief passed to his original cult members (read gospels they expected it in thier life time) but guess what..no end! you thin he was the 1st jewish messiah??? gees get a clue.

and why do you believe in a jewish god-salvation dogma anyways (if your not jewish)??

Keyvis Watson

Christianity is just a word used to to define what the Christian faith is by the world's standards, since everything in this world must be categorized. Jesus is real to real Christians who follow his teachings and have a relationship with him. God loves everyone but that doesn't mean he doesn't have a moral standard of living.Since we all, Christians included, were born into sin we need a mediator between us and God. Jesus is that answer and considering all the bad we all have done in our lives,its a miracle that any of us should even be allowed into heaven. A real Christian is gonna love people regardless of what they believe. Thats the essence of Jesus's character that we should strive to imitate in our daily lives. Christians stay faithful and I pray for people who don't believe experience Jesus for themselves because it is a personal experience that changes the heart and renews the mind.

Jim Lunsford

Always funny how christians tell us that Jesus lived and God is real. Then they tell us we have to have faith. No evidence required. Of course, if they do present evidence, it is the bible only. However, if we doubt anything using our powers of reason, they tell us we are wrong to doubt the bible. If truth cannot withstand questioning, it is not truth. And, if you christians believe there must be a god, why does it have to be a christian god? Maybe we should believe in Zeus instead. Or the Buddha. Or me.

oshonaire

Here is more foolishness for atheists to get angry about, Paul of Tarsus just joined the discussion;

"for the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. for it is written:
" i will destroy the wisdom of the wise and bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent"
where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this age? has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? for since in the wisdom of God , the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
for the Jews request a sign and the Greeks seek after wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men and the weakness of God is stronger than men"
1 Corinth 2: 16 -25

oshonaire

there is such a world of difference between a personal relationship with God and adhering to a religious system...they are almost opposites..one who has entered into union with jesus is trully free...from guilt, fear, deception, hatred and is full of virtuous power...religion indeed has wrecked havoc in the world, but when men turn to Jesus and not to the self motivated teachings of religious leaders...the change is manifest...Martin luther was a man who experienced such a connection..the result was clear to see..true faith emancipates...so many people have used this forum to misinterprete and quote scriptures out of context..i have some of mine too
"there is now no condemnation to them that are in christ jesus" romans 8:1
" for God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power, love and a sound mind" 2 tim 1:7
" for ALL THE LAW is fulfilled in one word, even in this: " you shall love your neighbour as you love yourself" Gal.5:14

Jesus christ is not the cause of the trouble in the world today, he is the light of the world.. but violent and ambitious men of all faiths and extractions have used religion to stir up strife and have found ready tools in the hands of fearful and ignorant men who have not a robust knowledge of the one they claim to believe ...indeed when he walked the earth Jesus christ exasperated some of his would be-followers exactly because he refused to condemn and act forcefully against political foes and social rejects of the jewish people....so how could he be the champion of religious wars?
true christianity is not bearing bible names and observing some dead rituals...it is the transformation of a man through a personal and spiritual encounter with Jesus christ....it does not produce spineless weaklings but men of conviction and power who change the world..like martin luther who challenged papal deceit and greed...like william wilberforce who fought slavery in the british empire...like rev.martin luther king Jnr. who struggled for the social emancipation of the american negro...etc

Jim Lunsford

Don't you just love it when christians say there is a difference between religion and a personal relationship with Jesus? Wonder when they'll realie that to believe in Jesus you have to believe in the religion.

gallus

Christ!......I haven't read one comment from any theist that didn't drag me in the direction of atheism. The lack of biblical knowledge let alone reasoned thinking is stultifying. Perhaps the most amazing thing is how the believer can assert things, with strenuous conviction, things that are in fact anathema to God and Christ. Clearly biblical study is demoted in favor of the words from the pulpit.

bo

For a person who is confused, you religious folks sound really stupid vs non believers. How am I suppose to ever believe in God when I keep reading these comments and the non believers are crushing you with reason and even more knowledge. How are you suppose to win me over? Its not even close. Yes the atheis sounds angry at times but you guys just never have any descent comeback. For example, a believer said the best evidence is the shroud. If thats the best evidence and I've seen it be replicated then you guys need to just stick to the only comeback left which is, "religion is a personal issue and I rather not talk about it."

Krissto

Sometimes i wonder if the fact that we humans have a brain, have reason and understanding, is a gift or a curse.

Mark

Eternity

ajschiffman

For Craigbull, what evidence do you claim to have supporting the existence of Jesus other than the bible? Please enlighten me

Jim Lunsford

This one is for Adam, who said he is so tired of people calling Christianity poison and wanted to ask where it is that we can show it is used to control the masses. Obviously, Adam is incapable of understanding mass psychology or history, so let's just skip right to the book he obviously hasn't read. Check in that Exodus book right before old Moses goes up the mountain. When his father-in-law comes to visit and then one finds out that he wrote down the minutes of the meeting. Very crudely, but still... Why is it these christians never read their own book, when they claim that knowledge of the book is key to heaven? Oh wait, there is a name for people who have read that book; it's atheist.

kask

Is it possible to quell the masses of religious people by using incomplete and incorrect religious facts?

Brians point would have been stronger, if the some of the facts he did use, weren't inaccurate. I'm sure there are some good points, but he lost me about half way through.

If you are going to attack a persons world view, then do it in a way that is helpful or don't do it at all.

This 'faith' others uphold, is terrible. Not only to the holders of a 'personal relationship' in a belief, but those around them.

Its sort of a water shed that easily picks up those in mental anguish. Let alone how most will formulate their own positions to uphold faulty reasoning and either withdraw from society or impose these onto others (purposefully and indirectly).

Sigh...

rere

kask how was he attaking anyone? This wasn't a film for Christins, if you don't like the message then don't watch it is that simple.

cole

Religion is bogus, God is not.

bobo

taylor:

Don't presume to speak for "us" non-theists.

"we just don’t need it and we know it so it angers us a little that these people follow this relgion and that with out saying they act like they have something over us"

I don't care whether deolaters follow a religion or that they may assume an air of superiority. I regard them as slaves to superstition and want nothing from them except to leave me alone and to not force their religious laws and beliefs on me.

BTW, the phrasing of your comments suggest a deolater posing as a free person.

James

He never said Jesus didn't *exist* per se. All he said was that it was that what Jesus preached and the miracles he is said to have performed isn't necessarily true. After all, he may have been a radical priest who was then spoken about and then as his legend grew, the stories grew. Much like King Arthur and Round Table. Do we *really* believe the books written hundreds of years after his time that he had a *real* magic sword? Come on, he may have existed, and had a nice sword, probably made of a stronger material than the common swords of the day, but not magical. It's a nice story that got embellished. And we write books about it, hundreds of years later. Maybe in a few hundred years, people will worship King Arthur, and his Knights will be his angels, and Merlin will be his 2nd in command, and Mordred can be Satan.

But oh wait, I'm sorry, if Arthur actually *does* magically return from Avalon (heaven) to restore Camelot, and bring peace and prosperity to the earth, the Christians will make him out to be the anti-christ... Lol

But oh! Wait! Arthur wasn't the only one who was said to return! Maybe Quetzalcoatl, or some other "heathen" god... Here's the real question, if some false god *does* show up one day, how would we tell the difference? For all we know, Satan's greatest trick wasn't making people believe he didn't exist, maybe it could be having you believe that he's god, and causing you to fear questioning his religion to the point where you will follow him even if your mythical god showed up right in front of you.

There's just too many possibilities to count. God may exist, he may not, he might exist but not be who you think he is... It's all a bunch of nonsense. In just one post I showed several different beliefs. None of them mine but the funny part is, they all have the same amount of "proof" to back them up. Zero. All you can do is live your life as best as you can, and hope for the best. After all, even your bible says two things that show that it can't be proven to anyone.

1) NOBODY will come to believe in god and the church unless god calls them. So arguing will never save anyone's soul. If you convert someone by arguing a point, you have just proven that you are in the wrong version of Christianity by your own bible. Because it says: "How can he hear except by a preacher, and how can he preach except he be sent?" So only a priest can have a hope of converting ANYONE! You cannot save anyone, not even your own child, unless you simply introduce them to a priest who can persuade them.

2) The bible and god are matters of FAITH! This is the most important part, if the bible itself (and therefore god him/her/itself) says that it's all about faith, then by *definition* it CAN NOT be proven! The bible itself states that faith is the belief in things UNSEEN! Therefore the bible SAYS that it can't be proven. STOP TRYING!!!

Godlessbreadthing

Can god make a rock so heavy that he cant lift it? hmmmm quite the conundrum...

PC812

Looks like the video has been removed from the site it was streamed from.

James J

I have a copy of it saved on my PC. I'll try and upload it somewhere and get Vlatko to re-link it to the new location. Give me a day or two and I'll have the free time to do it.

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

No need. I fixed that. Anyways thanks @James J.

James J

No problem Vlatko. Long as it's out there. The ending was great I think. "Here, in this chapel..."

maroonedinohio

Look up the story of Hilel and Shummei and Hilels answer to the man who says to teach him the Law (Torah) while standing on one foot. I think most would agree with what we Humans should follow,per Hilel,The Golden Rule and as he stated, the rest is commentary!!

lalalala

garbage presentation

this is not a documentary

i want my hour back

Marc

Gott ist tod!!!!! Und gelebt hat er nie

Bob

As soon as I saw Hebrews 8:4 being misquoted, I stopped playback and decided I was being deceived.No need to watch the rest. The apostle Paul is not saying that Jesus never was on Earth. He is explaining how after Jesus had made His sacrifice for sin, he entered heaven and took his place at the right hand of God. Paul is saying that if Jesus was still on Earth he would not be a priest because earthly priests make sacrifices according to the law and Jesus was the fulfillment of the law.Therefore His priestly service is in heaven. Any serious student of the Bible would easily catch this attempt at deception.

Jim Lunsford

Bob, a "serious student of the Bible" is also known as a theologian. Know what the result of serious (as in critical reading) reading of the bible is? Atheism. There is more cr*p in that book than anyone can shake a stick at.

You point out one part that you don't like, and you sh*t all over it. How about all the people that have read that vile piece of sh*t you call a bible completely, and with the idea of studying it, waiting until they were done with that study before they said to hell with that garbage? You? You are not serious about anything. That much is obvious. Don't forget to tell Jesus that I am his father.

James J

@ Bob

Yes that may be true, but the part of this that was good wasn't the quotes. It was the interview with the religious school principal and what was done after. Just watch that part, and you'll see what people can do when they truly no longer believe.

Jim Lunsford

For people like Bob, it is essential their belief systems not be challenged, so Bob took his first opportunity to dismiss the criticism. As others have noted, and had their comments purged, there is much about this film that would cause anyone with an open mind to question this documentary. This means, of course, that no christian would ever watch this film. Not the best film on the subject, but it still is enough to demonstrate the complete lack of scholarly skills necessary in order to maintain one's "faith" in this religion. The bible is so easily disproved, in so many ways, that one mis-quote is hardly reason to stop watching this documentary. I think that fear of having a mind-set challenged is the real reason.

SteveM

Where was god for the exterminated souls of the Khmer Rouge . Or where was the heavenly father when small pox killed a half billion (mostly babies) taken from their mothers. The list goes on and on with never a whif of this all powerful omninicient supreme being who once killed off the entire planet for some reason (flood). If you believe in god you haven't been paying attention.

Ray.Redspider

What evidence? That people talked about him? There's evidence people talk about Spongebob, but I don't think you'd argue he exists. No sir, unless you can provide some, don't claim there to be.

Paul Kelly

Oh come on now! This documentary presents many FACTUAL errors. Paul didn't know about the life of Jesus? HA! Apparently this guy has never read 1 corinthians 15. In antiquity, some of our earliest biographies were written centurys apart from what they describe. Even if we grant that the Gospels were written post 40 years after Christ, we still have an incredibly early source for him. Not to mention the sources behind the tradition in Corinthians goes within a a few years of the crucifixion! Are there parallels? It just so happens that 90% of those parallels are lies spread about on the internet. NO serious scholar, including Richard Carrier, thinks this is a good argument.

Not to mention that we have three outside secular sources for Jesus. We have Josephus, Tacitus the Roman historian, and the Talmud.

I wonder why NO publishing scholar believes Jesus never existed. This video is utter rubbish and an embarresment to any educated person. Take a course on the NT on academicearth.org. There you'll see a yale course on how historians approach NT history.

Jim Lunsford

Oh Paul, you christians are so funny! In the first place, the entire book you describe is pretty much bs just on it's face. And you fanatical ones (I think one is looking at you from the mirror) always preach how Jesus was real, and how you love him, then go and violate everything that he supposedly stood for in your actions. Vanity, boy, nothing but vanity from you. Jesus never lived, and if he did, he's dead now. It's really funny when we free-thinkers are told to respect your insane beliefs, while rejecting the same behavior from others. Your type always insist you have a "personal" relationship with a guy who (if he had really lived) would be dead for over two thousand years. Yep, and you telepathically communicate with him. Yet, if you meet someone walking down the street talking to someone you can't see, you lock them in the loony bin. Do you ever feel any hypocrisy with that attitude? You should, after all most of what is at odds with itself in this society lays right at the hands of you moral prigs in religion.

Randy

@Jim Lunsford

I must ditto pretty much everything you wrote.

I remember years ago, I was at a pizza place picking up lunch for the folks in my office. This bloated house-wife saw my gold pentagram, (which I wear always just because it pisses off christians, also my Black Sabbath T's and anything else I can wear that frightens the christ-lovers), and she says to me she says, "What does your 'star' mean to you?" She was trying to be clever, I think...

I said, "It's a Witch's Pentagram, I worship the Lord Satan." Which I don't, of course, I just love shining them on...

She went apocolyptic and pointed and screeched something about jesus being the way and truth and whatever they say...

This in front of dozens of other people waiting for their italian lunches, (this was an excellent italian eatery).

I just chuckled and said, "That skinny jew died 2000 years ago, I ain't afraid of his boney ass..."

She said, her voice quavering with tears, "HE'S ALIVE!"

I collected my food and said as I exited, "Well, then he doesn't smell very good..."

But, whatever. The fact is, the creature never existed. Myth.

taylor

just a thought, but what if the entire story of Jesus and God was made up just to give people some type of hope in this world,to keep people from going insane

taylor

man has made up stories since the beginning of time, such as those of the Greeks...again, this is just a thought

taylor

the bible is some what hard to decifer, mainly because it has been translated so many times and given its own meaning by man...exactly what are we suppose to believe

Jim Lunsford

To Taylor, more likely the bible was made up in order to control the masses for the sake of the few. Those few normally being the absolute worst candidates to rule anyone. The bible is hard to decipher, because it is supposed to be hard to decipher. Yet, one is supposed to read it, and believe it without question. If it was truth, it would only prove itself to be truth if you questioned it. It is a lie designed to enslave you. Religion is the first government. That should show you that it is evil, and not for our general good.

theocide

Thanks for the film

Bri

I was born into the Catholic religion, followed christianity afterwards, then studied the christian bible diligently only to see with my own two eyes that the christian new testament mis-used Old Testament prophecy to try to validate its claims. First, in the Old Testament it states that there is only ONE Lord, God the Creator, while in the new testament it states that Jesus is the Lord and would sit at the right hand of the Father; that makes no sense because if Jesus is the Lord why would he sit next to himself? Second, the Old Testament states that God does not accept human sacrifices, yet the new testament makes it vividly clear that Jesus was a sacrifice for the people, a human sacrifice, contradictive to the Old Testament. I can go on, christians, if you'd like because there's more. When one truly digs into some of the prophecies one sees the Old Testament referring to certain people of that time, not the time christians try to claim for themselves. One striking example is that Israel is referred to as Gods son while the new testament tries to use that prophecy to explain Jesus as His son. Thirdly, the Old Testament explains that Satan, known as the Morning Star(Day Star), would come to earth and claim to be like the Most High(God) and the new testament states that one of the names for Jesus was the Morning Star. Chew on that for a while! I'll give scripture reference upon request.

charlesovery

Bob07/24/2010 at 05:11 As soon as I saw Hebrews 8:4 being misquoted, I stopped playback and decided I was being deceived.No need to watch the rest. The apostle Paul is not saying that Jesus never was on Earth. He is explaining how after Jesus had made His sacrifice for sin, he entered heaven and took his place at the right hand of God. Paul is saying that if Jesus was still on Earth he would not be a priest because earthly priests make sacrifices according to the law and Jesus was the fulfillment of the law.Therefore His priestly service is in heaven. Any serious student of the Bible would easily catch this attempt at deception.

Interesting quote there Bob. The funny thing about it is that nowhere does it state anything about Jesus being the fulfillment of the law in that chapter. Also take a look at the past tense use of tyhe word "had", as long as I can remember past tense alwayts meant a previous time and not the time of right now. So there is no way that Paul was saying anything about his day in age but more when Jesus was actually supposively on earth. Wow an English lesson and a bible lesson all in comment.

Eddy

most religions have the same fundamental storyline and characters, except over time there names have changed.. If there's a flood its put down to gods power. oh hang on but loads of people have died... oh but god works in mysterious ways, but he loves you.. Dont be so nieve. Hundreds of thousands of people have died for centurys because religious believers think that their invisble freind is more powerful and knows better than the next guy. Biggest hoax in the history of man kind, dont be a sucker and live life for this idea that a bearded man that lives on a fluffy cloud is going to invite you to his place after dinner.

Marcos

iv read about 2/3 of the comments that have been written here and they seem to just go back and forth between people who believe in "god" and people who don't but myself i don't see myself as someone who goes around saying that evolution is a sham or that god is fake... i myself am not even sure in what i believe but i certainly don't believe in a god that has total power over everything that happens and that he started everything that we know and don't know and there are a lot of flaws in his story. there is just no proof behind god perhaps in another 5000 years some unexplainable thing will happen and people will just begin to believe in yet another religion to think about it what happened to the countless other religions, ill tell u they mostly just been forgotten or destroyed by other religions all that religion is a tool that helps control people i mean i know a lot of people that do not believe in god what so ever but still they do not murder they may steel a stick of gum or talk back to there parents all i know is that we shouldn't be held back be what some dude told us thousands of years ago and just move on...

joe

I love the ending haha. Good for him that he used his head. One day I am going to go back to my church and give my priest the middle finger. That's going on my bucket list. O s**t he died the other day... dang

Randy

Hercules was also the son of god, and saved the world from death, and Satan, (Hades)...

Plus, he could de-flower one-hundred virgins on one night, after drinking an ocean of wine...

I don't know... kind of a Savior I can BELIEVE in...

Hercules died for our sins! He saved us all from Satan!

He is the way, the Truth and the life!

No? What makes your skinny jew any better than him?

The bible? There are documents, carvings and statuary all over the ancient world that far pre-date the bible, saying you are wrong.

A great deal more material is recorded about Hercules than this jesus loser. I mean, a GREAT deal...

That's just one guy out of the thousands of Saviors...

Maybe they all are fake, and you just were sold a bill of goods?

Randy

Personally, I think Prometheus was the one most worthy of worship... and He saved us all from cold and starvation and ignorance...

(He would be the scientists' diety...)

He stole fire from the gods and brought it to humans to save them. For that, he was punished by having his liver forever eaten by harpies/vultures, (depending on the tradition you read) chained to a rock. For all of eternity, while he lived and suffered forever.

This silly jesus character ain't got nothin' on that!

There was no reward for noble Prometheus. No right hand of god or some-such. No kingdom in the hereafter. He saved us all with His bravery and then suffered for eternity...

How do you feel now about your whimpy christ! It's easy to spend a bad weekend with the Romans and then ascend to some lofty riches... a lot harder to do what you have to to save humanity, even though you know the end is eternal suffering...

Bunch of p*ss**s...

James

I am not really one to criticize the hard work of another artist and occasional doubter, but, boy, this is a really BAD documentary.

Randy

@James

I really liked it. It is similar to "Religulous" and uses alot of the same stock footage, but it was very much what I learned in college. In the 70's...

So, what I am saying is this information is nothing new...

faythe

where do you get these blanket statements from? there are a lot of statements made that are not corroborated by any evidence. Also your timeline is off. the Romans set the time. Christ was probably born in 30 AD. Mark obviously wrote his gospel after the assention of Christ, but the other gospels were not based on that, they were written by four eyewitnesses independently, and the only reason they tell the same story is because it really happened! Overall it is a poorly written, bias film that was written by an angry person who hates Christianity.

Jim Lunsford

Maybe you should learn your own religion a bit more. But isn't it hilarious how the least knowledgeable people about Christianity are the i!@#$ believers? The gospels differ, just ask any theologian. They were not written by eyewitnesses. There is no proof outside of the bible that any of the miraculous claims on the mythical person you call Jesus ever happened. One would think there would be some mention of the crazy a@# weather phenomena that happened on the day they nailed his a@# to the cross, but not a peep. As usual, the most fervent believers read their book the least.

faythe

wow, after reading more comments I realize there are alot of blind, angry people who have rejected God. I will pray for you all to see the truth, and find Jesus for who he really is, (not was).The spotless son of God who gave his life to keep you from dying forever in a lake of fire. God provided a way to escape. no one wants people to go to Hell, you chose to go by not believing in the only one to keep you out. Please change your ways and accept Him by faith today.

Jim Lunsford

Faythe, another typical ignorant statement. Though I do most definitely reject your sociopath of a god, there are a multitude of other far less (though all are extreme in this regard) ridiculous religions to choose from. You don't know your own religious doctrine, so your prayers would be those of an ignorant fool. How does ignorance solve anything at all?

Uncle Randy will protect you from the Lake of Fire. Yes, that's right... a little closer... jesus IS the only way to light and truth, I know, I know...

*Randy shakes head* Like fish in a barrel. I've got no sympathy for ya. You deserve to get eaten if you trust imaginary ghosts!

The world is full of monsters like I USED to be- that prey on people who speak and believe like you faythe!

Do you know who Jim Jones was? Charles Manson? These are just recent examples but there are thousands more... they both quoteth the word of god and spoke just like Uncle Randy... and they were horrible predators that picked their teeth with the bones of children.

Your mother and father can't ptotect you, the gubment can't protect you, god don't exist (he never protected any of those poor victims that loved him), Only YOU can protect you. With knowledge and money and mental toughness!

Achems Razor

I agree, poor scared little faythe, has no faith in herself!

Epicurus

lol @ Faythe....believe in jesus or suffer in hell...

why do you believe hell is real?

what if i told you that your actions in this life are building your karma up which after your death will have to be expended in Naraka which is like hell?

why dont you believe that and why do you believe in hell???

Randy

Yes, this idea of hell is really silly.

I mean, what would "eternal torment" be like? What are the major fears of torture?

Loss of life and loss of limb... maiming, scarring etc...

Well, once you are dead, and can't be killed AGAIN, what's the problem? You can be horrfied by about 10,000 years of boiling in oil but after a while wouldn't you just realize there wasn't anything to be afraid of?

Given the human mind's capacity to "get used to" or shut down any pain or psychological terrors... (that is documented... unfortunately, in terrible ways... but...)

Randy

@Achems

Yes, you have been through hell and got through to the other side!

You (and from here I mean the editorial "you" not you specifically, Achems) just need the courage and the fortitude and the knowledge to see it through.

The organism will either make it through, or die... that's what Nature shows us. You don't have to be scared, just knowledgable, vigilent, and accountable for your decisions.

Jim Lunsford

Uncle Randy, isn't hell the place where atheists have to spend in eternity with christians? lol Hell is nothing but a point of view. Life is something relived moment by moment, and these crazy religions all try and have everybody afraid of all those future moments. They get so many people afraid of all that life really is, change. Now imagine an eternity being spent in the company of those people. No!!!!!!!!! :)

Randy

Yes, my nephew... you have wisdom...

*Randy makes the sign of the cross...*

See? That was irony. And you can play with this stuff when you understand it and are not afraid of it.

Ha,Ha, or imagine the poor christians who have to spend there eternity in heaven where they have pay allegiance every single nano-second to their god for fear of reprisals, probably the same as they do now.

Floating around on clouds playing harps or whatever, no women, no booze, no gambling, no dancing, no making money, no watching good movies (devil stuff), no conversing on things, only conversing on things that are relevant to there religion. no science, no delving into anything that is new unless sanctioned by their gods, absolutely no upwards mobility, in other words, boring, boring. Complete static existence, if you can call it that.

RG

Wow, there are a lot of God hating ignorant suckers on here. I only have one thing to add.... I am willing to bet if I put a gun to you and started to blow off some body parts one by one that your cries would be to the same God you say you don't believe in... Deny it if you want, but even Darwin himself recanted when on his death bed. Besides, if Christians are right, and they believe and it make them better people, and they find out God isn't real, they have lost nothing. If they are right, then you have lost everything. Seems like a real risk. I myself choose to believe, and I am loving life, and nothing anyone else says matters. Good luck you God hating schmucks ....

Randy

HAHA, yes, Achems!

To an Irishman, hell is any place there isn't a bar...

Well, I guess that would be heaven.... hmmmm...

Anyways, of course, I do not advocate you drinking anymore in this life. But? If there is this hellish afterlife, (which I do not believe in), you and I will get wasted and slap each other around!

Then we will cruise for ch*cks on our cool motorcycles with the skulls on the handle bars!

Ah, I do miss my motorcycle sometimes... but, you can't really ride one with MS. I could have a siezure and take out some other poor, innocent, walking meat-bag.

Achems Razor

@Randy:

(LOL) I would get wasted every day, then women beware! would be formulating plans on how to pop a cap into the big "J"

Skull and bones with a big mother f..... chopper, only way to go!

eireannach666

No Bar!! S@#$% man I got to find a way to sneak in some Guinness and Jack!

I know we can hide it in our bibles! Do you think K-9 dogs are in heaven? Ill need some party favors

Oh that's rigbt we are oonlt doing rhe religious #1 ; make beliving and having faith. See had my hopes up.

eireannach666

@RG

Why does one need false superstitious concepts and faith in something from the imagination of bronze age medicine men and doped up witch doctors to be a good person? Shouldn't morality and principles be implied , taugh and practiced , as it wad and is a key for the survival and evolution of our species?

Being atheist only means that one need no such idiocracies in order to do the rational and logical right thing.

What does that say about your religees, that they need help on doing the obvious? Sounds like the religees need to tuffin the mind and not the nonexistent crutch of religion ,soul.

Epicurus

@RG, i am willing to bet if you shot me i might yell the word god d@mn it or jesus christ, but it wouldnt be for them to help me. it would make as much sense as if i screamed for shiva or allah or zeus...what makes you think everyone would believe in a god?

also NO Darwin did not in any way shape or form recant on his death bed. lying is not a good trait to hold if you expect to gain favour with your god...unless you are only repeating something you have been told. I stress you actually look that up.

also if you are just believing in a god to make a bet because you want to get into heaven then that all knowing god would know that you are not a TRULY good faithful person, but just a scared gambler who is betting on god...

what if you are wrong and the hindu is right RG? what if you have to go to Muslim Hell? or any of the other religions ideas of hell...

your bet isnt as cut and dry as you think. if you wanted to be perfectly honest to yourself you would admit that you only believe the most socially accepted religion of your culture because it is what is the norm where you live, you are scared of death, AND you are too ignorant to understand what modern science has shown.

Jim Lunsford

RG, you freaking religious nuts are always worried what other people are doing, instead of concentrating on your own sorry hypocrite selves. Darwin converted my a@#. Hey, I bet if I just started blowing off your body parts, I could get you to not only soil yourself, but to claim god is dead, Satan, and is Muslim. Why is it that christians always assume the most ridiculous stances in their arguments? Oh wait, I forgot! It's because their religious beliefs are so freaking ridiculous! lmfao

Jim Lunsford

Epicurus, strange that you use that name while using the argument it is MODERN science which has shown the ridiculous nature of the religions. I thought you did a pretty good job of ridiculing it WAY back in the day! :)

eireannach666

Ahh the scars of the crucifix. That's my jam. Some one should look it up.

Sorry guys if my spelling is messed up in places here and there. M eyes are all screwy. So pre-apologies all around.
Slainte

Randy

@Epicurus

Sigh... indeed, I really want to expatriate to Canada when I retire... do you think America's creeping infectuous ignorance will have corrupted too much by then?

It's like 10 or 11 years away, if I live that long...

Do you think they would have me? Accept me as a citizen? I love my country but the creeping fear all around and lack of respect for science and education is really starting to "harsh" my buzz...

It seems to be reaching a fever pitch!

eireannach666

@Randy

Oh yes indeed my friend of tbe green. I too would like nothing more than to get out before tbe whole house goes up in flames. And pop culture and religion together have lit their matches already. All the human cattle will fuel the almost inevitable fire storm that will b in this human meat market of a country, in which we stay. I was thinking Europe but Canada is good as well.

Randy

Well, yes, I would love to go to Europe again, but I can't fly anymore so, Canada would be the most logical choice.

I mean, my wife has family in Mexico, but LOL they just found the mayor of Mexico City in the trunk of a car... there is some serious craziness going on over there... those poor people...

I just had a crazy feeling of deja-vu... have I typed all of this before? IF so, forgive me, but, I do not remember the responses right now.

But, I'm a really hard worker. With no criminal record. I am smart and skilled and would never hurt anyone, (unless they tried to come near my loved ones or my property/money...)

Prix

Wait I've been missing out reading all these comments here as well? AHHHH! So long! It's like reading a book.

I guess I won't be commenting here. I've been occupied at the other place...you know. School needs attention as well. Also I need my girlfriends attention and she wants mine.

She does "oh for Kratos(God of war game) sake, stop writing that much"

Time to sleep nighty night!

Randy

@Prix

Yes, sir. Your education is very important and tendng to your girlfriend is very important too!

And "God of War" is a good game. Didn't Peter Weller do one of the voices in one (or all) of the series?

(Peter Weller is an underrated actor who played the lead role in "Robo-Cop" but is also a professor of World History at Syracuse University. I greatly respect him...)

eireannach666

@Randy

You are bs,ing there. Its straight chaos out there. Not to sound harsh but the US government should really get a hold on the border , because even now their mess is spilling over to the US. I see it everyday but in the past year or so all the cartels out there and the ones operating in the states, are at war. Heck , righr now we need to be helping ourselves.Can't help others if you can't fix yourself , so to speak.

Oh and don't drink the water and if someone wants tou to see a boro show, well , say no if your squeemish or have a heart condition. W more tip, try and not look like a easy rich American hostage.

No, I don't believe you have said that. But that's just not to me
. Dude Canada is a cool spot to go. I personally like the cold weather and coffee shops. But yes you are right , the average American citizen to the average Canadian would be a one way land slide , as far as knowledge of the maths and science. I'm glad I'm not in the average American group.Sad really.* shame on the whole nation.

Thats right , shame on you America for dumbing yourselves down in pursuit of popularity, vanity and greed,instead of knowledge and application of.

Jim Lunsford

True, the majority of americans are ignorant (hence the explanation of our large religious institutions being so popular), but we also have over 300 million people. The ones who would travel are generally not the dumbest ones. By the way, tuning out of school (Britain,USA,Canada, whatever) and NOT learning is the the best advice for students. Example: When you learn algebra, if the teacher does not know why the quadratic equation was important, and still is in our daily lives, then that teacher is not fit to teach Algebra. Having recently read an article on HG Wells and the British education system of his day, I hardly see any superiority in one over another because they can regurgitate more meaningless "facts" than another. Also, Canada is really a colony of the US thanks to NAFTA. Mexico is resisting. I would still choose Mexico over Canada actually as (despite our war on us through drugs) there are still places to go down there where you would not have the cartel (or the government). Canada is shifting towards a more US like policy, and Mexico is fighting it. I know, this is an overly simplistic model, but the religious sheeple who are so afraid of someone else, somewhere else, getting high have really made a mess of things. Soon, Mexico will be back to a more normalized state as they legalize drugs. For full normalization, they might have to have the US end it's stupid war on us through drugs, but we are quickly devolving into a meaningless society anyway. Which would make Mexico safer even if it doesn't change a thing. Confused yet? Oh yes, this is an amerikan, who went to school in america, but didn't really pay attention at all, who wrote this. :)

Jim Lunsford

Oh yeah, yes; I have spent a lot of time in Mexico. The 50 something bodies they discovered in the mine shaft? That was the region I spent so much time in. However, I will NEVER go willingly to Mexico City ever again. Not only is the pollution so bad that I get nauseous after a few hours, but the cops constantly mugging you is a real bummer.

Prix

@Randy

Yea, Peter Weller hosted a documentary on God of war games.
Here is the link to that documentary

stagevu._com/video/itufvckdcpqq

Just remove the _ and there you go sir.

His voice is so smooth and admiring, I need to watch this as well to see what information he can provide. I didn't know the guy who played robocop was a historian!

Epicurus

the mexicans want to take the power away from the cartels all they have to do is legalize cannabis and cocaine and create a regualted system.

that way they take the money out of the hands of the cartel and into the government.

Mattmir

Are you serious? Charles Manson is a ''face'' of Christianity??? One crazed woman is one too? That's hardly representative.

Then obviously chooses the cheasiest depiction of the gospel so that every atheist in the room gets a good giggle.

Man this movie sucks. The early account of what happened after Jesus' death is clear if you don't turn a blind eye to it.

Paul didn't know? Are you serious? Go read 1 Corinthians 15.

Wow Hebrews 8:4 hun? No one even knows who wrote the book and the quote is completely out of context.

This is where I stop watching. Paul doesn't think Jesus existed? That's a bold statement to make without any footnotes or proof. Just his own interpretation made very quickly with any evidence. And then to say that NO christian leaders speak of the early church just demonstrates more of his ignorance.

People, when the first 15 minutes of a documentary are filled with misused quotes, wild accusations without proof and poor logic, you understand this is more of a crazed rant than it is a documentary.

Achems Razor

@Mattmir:

And what proof do you have? Something that you read in a book?? Always circular logic with you guys, isn't it? Because the bible told me so!

Charles B.

Well, yeah! Actually. That's where I start, don't you?

Jim Lunsford

Hey Charles, using the bible as it's own proof is called ignorance, not proof.

Daniel Nolan

Notice how every believer in "God" actually has no real arguement all they seem to be able to say is just simply no your wrong I'm right.... how ignorant can you be atleast bring some evidence to the table, this film absolutely destroys christianity and you still have faith get a brain and actually think for yourself, religion is for the weak and easily misguided.

Travis

Wow there seems to be an awful lot of controversy over this Doc. I guess I wouldn't expect any less. I love a good Doc. that stirs up emotion and makes one think. That's really what life is all about. Knowledge is essential for survival and if we are to survive and thrive for much longer as a human race; we need to stop taking what someone wrote two thousand years ago, literal. I believe that the different religions that we have today are meant for good, but the idea that mine is rite and yours is wrong is as childish as two kids arguing over which color is better. Blue clearly!! Anyway I think we all need to for the most part mind our own business and teach our kids to teach themselves to decide for themselves. Also understand that everyone is equal and has just as much rite to their opinion as the next. It would be a much better world.

BTW I recently started studying Buddhism solely to better myself and that's what I think this journey called life is really about. See! My opinion and I didn't hurt anyone.

Jim Lunsford

Travis, surely you aren't suggesting open and educated opinions? Opinions made during debates made with absolute freedom in determining our self-discovered truths? Such heresy has always been damned by religions as their interpretations, which coincidentally just happen to give the religious leaders unlimited power over their believers. I'm sure that's just a coincidence. That's surely not the reason all the religions demands you NEVER question the words in their books. After all, even though truth will stand up, and even be strengthened by questioning it; those who question any aspect of the "truth" as given are demons from hell! lol Travis, the reason we have so many people believing so much ridiculous stuff, is because my unified theory of why things are the way they are today is true. I invite you to question it thoroughly. The theory? People are stupid. That was it. Three words. Please, of course I accept the Nobel Prize. :)

Jim Lunsford

Should have been st-pid. Apparently, even slang which is not considered cursing or being used in some sort of flame attack is still prohibited. If you can't figure out the word with only a hyphen to represent a hidden word? You are probably not smart enough to worry with anyway. :)

Achems Razor

@Charles B:

In reply to your post...08/28/2010 at 08:14.

Sometimes that is where I start, to see if can be proven by the scientific method. If not, then is still up in the air, for further study.

From where you start, you also seem to finish, even though there is not one shred of proof or evidence, EVER! via the scientific method, only your beliefs, that hold absolutely no merit in the scientific community!

Again I say, all you have is circular logic, because the bible told me so.

Travis

@Jim Lunsford

Funny stuff and the msg. came to me via mail and said the actual word...s.t.u.p.i.d

Lee

Adam.. you rock, bud. You have evidently educated yourself and have an amazing ability to communicate. I only had time to read your first few posts, but will bookmark it and get back to you. The truth really is evident. I am amazed at how divided discussions can be on the topic. Incredible and just baffling.

MelanieL

Is this film not available via 123video.nl in its entirety anymore?

Mick Toland

I have been researching this topic since 1974 when I realised sitting in catholic church that I was listening to nonsense when catholic priests were domonising other christians - I woke up. I was 14.

Extremely impressed with this video and would have liked to have seen more on the actual putting together of the biblle under Constantine Ceasar by the, lets face it, politicians of that time, to control the masses.

I am 50 now and plan to do my Phd on this subject. Its is my belief that Non Theseists should speak.

Finally, I am not interested in listening to any responses from religious people. I realises that sounds awfull, but they have not listened to me in the last 50 years.

ste armstrong

I hope that a larger organisation pick this film up & is able to help the writer expand & then re-release it. I find it very disheartening to know that there are people who actually believe this stuff. And the leval of ignorance diplayed by the indiviuals interviewed at the start was breath taking. And what about the good Dr.(?) Sipus walking out of his interview. Very telling.

Matt

I have not seen this video. I have read almost half these comments. I have just one thing to say. Jesus was right "few be there that find it"

Mark

Christians give up the argument because they realize they have lost it already. It is a tragic state of affairs that young children are still being indoctrinated through fear. The inquisitive mind has no place in the confines of religious belief. Children should be shown both sides of the argument at an early age so they can make their own choices, not be forced to believe through fear, intimidation and false information. People like to think they are special and here on this planet for some purpose, Christianity gives them that as it plays on their insecurity and fear on inferiority.

daniel

All you anti-christs out there know that your day of judgement is near, but the good news is that you still have a chance to accept Jesus Christ as your Saviour, i have and it is the best thing i have ever done! and no matter what you do Jesus will always love you! " Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. "

Achems Razor

Where the h*ll is all the religee's coming from? is there a full moon or something??

@daniel: keep your vitriolic to yourself!

Jim Lunsford

Golly Gee David, you mean you found the secret of the ages, a person never before proven to have existed at all, on YouTube? Oh surely, your name will burn brightly in the sky, Jesus will praise your name as he mows down we evil atheists, and their damned souls will shake apart into nothingness at the mere sight of your holiness! You christians are funny as hell! lmao at you and your kind.

Ryan

The movie has a lot to say about Christianity, but it does not have much to say about whether Jesus of Nazareth actually existed. I was led to believe that the movie was essentially meant to address that question. It hovered on the question for a few minutes and then launched into an anti-Christian polemic. We hear about why Christians who believe in the imminent return of Jesus is dangerous for American politics, but we hear very little about the historical evidence for the claim that the man Jesus is a figment of the collective Christian imagination. Also, several uses of the quotes from the Bible and spokespeople for Christianity are just not honest. For instance, Jesus is quoted as stating that those who didn't want him to be king should be killed in front of him. Jesus was telling a parable, and did not speak that to his disciples about his contemporary enemies. No context was provided, and it was entirely misleading. I don't believe what Flemming is advocating here, but I was willing to give him an honest hearing. He simply disappoints in his presentation in terms of adding to the honest conversation about these important matters.

Dave

Damn the Yanks are dumb lol

polo

Only an American could watch this vid and tske it seriously, or someone who's been brainwashed by some non-thinking cult.

truth4once

@Adam I am no longer a Christian but I was at one time. I was a Pastor for 4 years. What you rote was absolutely false. According to the Bible the ten commandments are not what we will be judged by. There isn't a person alive that has not broken a commandment in his or her life. The new covenant is what humanity will be judged by. You will be judged by whether or not you have accepted Christ as your savior. It is not your actions that will get you into heaven. Remember the whole point of the new covenant was so humanity could very easily be accepted into heaven. The only thing you needed to do was accept Jesus and ask for forgiveness. Thats if you believe those things. I searched for real truth and found that hell, god, Satan, heaven, sin, all of those things are a means of control. These ideas have deluded the true human spirit and have become a crutch for society. Truth should be valued above everything even if it destroys your world view and your religion. The millions of Buddhist, Hindus, Muslims, pagans, and people of various other religions are not perishing in an eternity in hell because they didn't accept Christ, as the bible says they will. Millions upon millions of people never even heard of Jesus or Yahweh before they died. Christianity along with every other religion has destroyed us as a species because of the differences it creates in us. We need to look again to our inner spirit as human beings to improve ourselves and the world we live in. The human spirit that unites us all, not separates us.

faythe

to all you who think Christians (real ones, not Catholics or nut jobs)are weak and simple, Look up the history of Christian martyrs. I would like to see any of you face a lion, or stand up to fire or the torture that they endured. as for proof, just look at all the literature written about one man. I have no "proof" that my great grandfather ever existed, yet I believe my grandmother and know he did. Why? because I am alive. likewise.God is real because we exist. but I'm wasting my time writing this because nothing anybody writes will ever persuade a person who has hardened his heart to real love. (btw "Uncle Randy" I made my choice and plan to stand by it, not because I am ignorant or scared, but because I am wiser than any of you. You will someday know.)

Carla

I think its unfortunate that many people seem to miss out on the real message of Christianity. From my perspective (which is still being formed, and I know I have a lot to learn), Christ came to show us who God is. His message (particularly the Sermon on the Mount)turns the values of the world upside down and offers a completely different way of living, to the way we are prone to live. Jesus taught us to love our enemies, that those who are humble, kind, gentle and forgiving are the ones who inherit his kingdom. In seminary I was taught that the kingdom of God is "already and not yet", meaning that God's order of things is already being revealed in those who are following the teachings of Christ and imaging his character, but that the fullness of his kingdom on this earth has not yet arrived. We are called to seek God in our lives and to do our best to love him by imitating Christ in our actions (loving others, etc). Christ came as a servant, and we are called to do likewise.
I don't understand how so many people believe that Christianity is about a ticket to heaven, and spend most of their time concerning themselves about who's in and who's not. (Especially since the Bible says not to judge others). And I REALLY don't understand why people in power use religion to manipulate and control others. This is not the way of Christ at all. Christ came to serve and love others in complete humility. None of has all of the answers to everything, and the best we can do is to seek to honour Christ by yielding our spirits to him and allowing him to change us to become more like him.
Thank you for making this movie. It was interesting to watch and thought provoking. I seriously can understand your frustration with fundamental Christianity, but I don't believe that the twisted theologies of different Christian sects are a threat to the True Christ, and if anything, they highlight our own brokenness and our need for a Light by which to find out way in the darkness and confusion of our society.

Dodgy

Dern, nothing I didn't encounter previously in this one. Think I've exhausted all the xtians are based on paganism docs in the world. If only they were heavier into polytheism today - then there would be more :D
I'd say this one is an ok watch for someone that has just started researching religions throughout history but isn't exhaustive and leaves out many things.

There is nothing mentioned about inconsistencies in the bible itself either. How about new testament books all giving differing accounts of what happened, especially at the resurrection. I mean, if you compile the stories can you not at least pick one to use :P

That's how you know that those blindly following this religion don't read it's doctrine - they are told it and just follow. The book seems too big to tackle, pick it up and read it if you think you are a real believer. Reading it is what made me question it - as a former sunday school teacher who just regurgitated stories told to me and passed out coloring material.

If you really believe it - why not actually read what you claim to believe. Don't forget Leviticus or the part about Jesus saying not one of my father's laws shall ye break etc. So when you read about a man w/out testicles being barred from heaven or that wearing multiple fibers is wrong, you just jump out of that polyester jumpsuit and get to praising that benevelent being that will be smiting those lacking testicles for whatever reason. lol

My grandmother was a christian but she used to crack me up when she would say she didn't look forward to dying because heaven would just be a bunch of praising god day and night and singing songs. lol Grandma is gone now, hope she didn't get subjected to heaven. One does have to wonder how needy and insecure these gods are that constantly want your submission, gifts, and glory.

Alex

I can't stand the way in which the film maker did this film. It is distasteful. Everyone has a view on the world, who are they to tell anybody otherwise. I may be atheist, still I see this film just as opinionated as many other religions. People make decisions to kill people. It is not faith in God or Jesus that makes people commit these crimes. The rhetoric being used is in bad taste. Furthermore to try to get back at an organization that felt they were acting in his best interest as a child angers me. Two thumbs down.
I do like some of the idea's presented, but they are nothing I haven't already considered.

Bobby D

@ Alex

Amen, Brotha

(Just realized the irony of that)

I feel the same way, it's like some of the atheist crowd is becoming as dogmatic as the religious extremists. So missing the point.

1speed2racer7

@Carla AMEN!!! I have found VERY few people that share this view of Christ. There are so many "religious Pharisees" in the world today. Those who do not believe in Jesus fail to realize that they themselves follow a religion of their own, even if they claim to be an atheist. Many who do believe fail to realize that Christ called us to love everyone including those who don't believe. The key to achieving this peaceful love is forgiveness, which can only be provided by Jesus.

riley

the person who made this documentary probably should just grow up, realize the truth of things, without feeling to the need to take us on his journey of scorn.

yes, religion is bunk. but there's no point being an ass about it. the presentation was entirely too personal, too unfair, too unkind.

Jim

Riley, there are many things you could say about this documentary. You could call it incomplete, childish, amateurish, unscholarly, and so on. However, it is not unkind or unnecesary. Religion is unkind and cruel. Not this doc. Religion is a lie started to get ordinary people's power and money funneled into some crazy lying person's control. Religion is bs and deserves more than any other institution to die an agonizingly embarrasing death.

Ken

This Documentary is excellent!!! It points out how when it comes to matters of faith, we require no proof at all. Hmmm and we call ourselves intelligent? How is it intelligent to follow something and say that the something is true and persecute people and the way they live for that true thing and have absolutely no hard evidence to the fact of it at all?

Milos

In the wise words of Diogenes- "I don't know whether there are gods, but there ought to be!"

Milos

Christianity as Jesus intended it is a wonderful thing. It teaches us to help each other, and help the less fortunate, live a fulfilling life of kindness and compassion for our fellow man. Jesus wanted us to love our enemies and to give up greed and jealousy.
What man has done to Christianity is disgusting. Jesus did not intend for his Church to have a leader (i.e the Pope), the leadership of the Church has been a corrupt group of thieves all through out its history. And if these men were truly as holy and as close to God as they said and are saying they are, and can use the bible against us for their own gain, then we clearly do not believe in the same God. I personally get frustrated when conflicts start because of religion, because that just contradicts the teachings.
The movie is interesting and it makes you think, however it didn't change my beliefs on anything, i only hope more people will realize the true(or at least what i believe to be true)(or peaceful) meaning of Christianity.

robert

How many of the 'Christians' out here follow all the rules in Leviticus, or how abut Matthew 25?? if not,why not?
Personally, i have never met any person who has followed the rules more than 5%.
God is great when you are in trouble not when one is purchasing a new car.

Randy

@robert

You speak all kinds of truth...

Could I eat your brains at all? Just a little brain eating between friends...

David

I've many of debates on here, and I am glad to see both sides state their claims intelligently. I will refrain from getting into the argument of course, less I be on stuck on this page for the next 2 hours writing a diatribe that will not do a thing in changing someone's mind--on here.

I would like to talk about the documentary instead. It started out extremely interesting with the claims to debunking Jesus. But as I watched and listened closely it quickly became a slander campaign against those of the Christian faith. Extremely unprofessional and very amateurish.

The fundamental premise of the whole mock-umentary is that he attempts--like many before him--to bring the discussion of "morality" into the realm of "science." Morality belongs in philosophy and shall remain there, because you know why... IT'S NOT A SCIENCE. Anyone who even engages the question of "right or wrong in a moralistic sense" and tries to compare it to the "right or wrong realm of science" is comparing apples to oranges. 2 + 2 = 4 is not analoguous to "it is wrong to murder." What a fools errand.

I love the beginning of this mockumentary. It fell off the deep end extremely quickly though. Watch with caution.

steven mathers

oh dear - the god squad are getting all worked up about their precious fairy stories again!

Gothens

god is eternal, god has a son, god created us all, we are all gods children.

Seems christians are deluded. Jesus was the same as any other of gods sons. He did not send his only child, since we are all his kids, unless the bible itself is contradicting its own scriptures.

Paul

I do not believe in Jesus. There is no evidence for Jesus. The story of Jesus is exactly the same as for many other saviours. Nevertheless, it is clear that the interview with the school superintendent was done disingenuously and with the intent to provoke. Although I agree with the narrator's position that Christianity is just an empty belief, he does so in such a way as to give non-Christians a bad name. Sigh.

xmaseveeve

This is an excellent short film, with a low budget. The best part is the personal journey back to the school. The director was asking polite, straightforward questions in a reasonable, measured tone. What was the preacher so afraid of? He is obviously used to unquestioning acceptance of his right to brainwash small children. It is outrageous and very frightening.
Some very good comments here. For fascinating discussion, go to richarddawkins.net and then click on his response to the pope's ridiculous comments when he arrived in Britain recently. I warn you - the discussion thread is addictive and you will spend about three days reading it. I learned so much from it and had a good laugh at some of the god-bothering hate comments fantasising about athiests burning in hell.
Atheism is not a religion. I am a polyatheist- there are many gods I don't believe in. (I can't remember who said that but I would buy that teeshirt.)
Also try to watch Stephen Fry's debate on religion, 'Intelligence Squared'. It is great.
Just a wee reply to the person who said we can't prove God doesn't exist - you can't prove a negative. The burden of proof is always logically on the person who is asserting.

LD B

First...thanks for having a moderator to these comments. It is so much more civilized to read them. Second, I wish people would never have abandoned spelling and grammar in our country. That also makes it more civilized to read comments. I cringe at some of the grammar and spelling...and it really makes it hard to take anyone seriously on an academic forum.

That said...I read these comments and book quotes and I think of the book "why god won't go away," a book I read many years ago that was the first in a long series of books trying to explain why we need religion, why we so staunchly and dogmatically defend it when it clearly is unproven, and has no foundation in reality.....in any religion at all.

We have all evolved so much, and to such astonishing degrees in all other things. Why we cling to these unfounded and unproven and invisible ideals is a mystery in itself, especially when it has served us time and time again as a catalyst to evil, destruction, and reduced us to the lowest possible denominator of the human condition.

vego

i like the bible as literature but it certainly is NOT true. and i am christian. in 48 - if i remember my bible study - paul converted to a religion that had not yet been established, and many other things that do not make sense and show it as literature and metaphor and plagiarism, and not history. If one wants to read an actual person who lived during the early years of christianity, read Celsus' "The Truth Doctrine" it explains it all pretty much.

when we were babies we would would wish someone would feed us or warm us or roll us or care for us or watch out for us or fend off dangers etcc... and that idea got imprinted on our mind , we could just cry or mumble or wish for that and it would eventually happen, then as we grew up that desire for a big daddy or caretaker to help us watch over us listen to us, just like when we were in the crib, then we just transferred that idea in a grownup version, i.e.e god. then graft on some agricultural death and resurrection cults, that were at least 20 around the Mediterranean, back then. then rome smashed the other 19 and forced the 1 "Truth Doctrine" as official policy of the pax romana, just like america is trying to do for pax americana now.

sun worship is crucial to and intimately involved in agricultural cults. i think the first 1/3 of the Zeitgeist movie says it pretty well.

but i still like going to church and hanging with my bros and singing and messing around with the nice christian girls. seems only place to find hot girls who aren't strippers. and yes i do have to pretend to believe - but it is too late for me to change now.

Shinji

Very interesting movie. I have not yet finished but have read most of the comments.... NOTE: it does not matter how many scientific facts you present to the religious community. Their beliefs are based on faith, not facts. Therefore no matter how much scientific evidence you present them with(age of the earth, life in the universe, etc) their minds will not be swayed. It's two different belief systems, one based on faith the other based on fact.

Lucko

Why do so many people hate me when I say I don't believe in god?

Jim

Craig....think for a second. You want lots of people to believe in your religion, and give you lots of money and power. How about "early believers were tortured and killed for their belief! That's how strong it was! And that makes the religion true!"

How do you know the early followers were tortured and killed for their belief? CONSIDER THE SOURCE.

eviltwin

21st century and people still believe firmly in the existence of "the invisible man" in the sky, up there, that "just can't handle money"? And they're calling ME headstrong...oh the humanity...

JB

I believe everyone who has commented on this documentary need to see "What the Bleep (Down the Rabbit Hole edition)"

A lil quantum physics could help most of you...

Faith = belief in something intangible.

Air (intangible)
light (intangible)
heat, cold, energy, dark matter, other planets, galaxies, this universe (all intangible to us).
Yet we all have faith that these are our reality.

Let go of your preconceived perverse ideas of this reality and only then can you find the truth!!!

Achems Razor

@JB:

Have no idea what you are talking about, when you say most of the things you have mentioned are intangible? Try living without air, for instance, than you will see how intangible it is!

And what do you know about quantum physics? you brought it up, now the onus is on you to explain!

over the edge

@jb
definition of intangible

adj.
1. Incapable of being perceived by the senses.
2. Incapable of being realized or defined.
3. Incorporeal.

please explain how your examples are fit the definition

xock

I have yet to see a single piece of evidence supporting the existence of a man named Jesus performing miracles 2000 years ago. nuff said.

xock

daniel201
All you anti-christs out there know that your day of judgement is near, but the good news is that you still have a chance to accept Jesus Christ as your Saviour, i have and it is the best thing i have ever done! and no matter what you do Jesus will always love you! ” Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. “

Too many contradictions in here to count. If you accept Jesus you can do whatever you want, and he will still love you and you will be saved? But if you don't believe in him, you go to hell? hmm...so if someone believed in Jesus, and decided 'hey, Jesus loves me, so I'm going to rape, pillage and murder. but I believe in Jesus, so I will still be saved.' but if I don't believe in Jesus and I donate to charities and volunteer for the sick and poor...I'm going to hell because I don't believe in Jesus...boy God sure is forgiving lol what a joke.

Riley

one problem i've had with the judeochristian concept, at least the part promoting the concept of an afterlife, is it's primitivism.

there is the underlying notion that great rewards and punishments exist, for the worthy and unworthy.

how can we avoid an interpretation that the REASON to be good, kind & considerate MUST BE to acheive the reward & avoid the punishment.

as if there aren't good practical reasons to be good ready at hand. do you like mean, greedy, grasping, selfish people? no! do you want to be around them, know them? no. switch it around. do you want friends? do you want to enjoy caring for other people, expecting a certain amount of kindness from strangers, and performing kindnesses likewise for them?

of course. that's a better world. christians seem to think we can or should only be motivated by cosmic carrots and sticks. that's silly.

this is just one of the great weaknesses of that particular section of religiosity, but it is amongst the more serious. its a magical reward system that is both implausible and unnecessary, with origin easily traceable to early authoritarian cultural roots.

Ben

Casey6 - "For you to undermine us for NOT having Christian faith makes you a sinner."

And what if you're wrong? When you die, you'll get a hell of a shock or be met with a huge disappointment, but then probably not because......well, you'd be dead! There is proof that there were many radical religious preachers, but none were called Jesus. Yeshua or Isu/Isa were the names used then. And he was not the only one. Appolonius of Teyana is one of many.

Ted Haggard

I like meth and boys.

Tina

For some reason the video cuts off at 45:25. Hopefully, it can be fixed soon enough. In the interim, does anyone know where else I can view this video? Thanks. :)

xock

Jim Lunsford110
Don’t you just love it when christians say there is a difference between religion and a personal relationship with Jesus? Wonder when they’ll realie that to believe in Jesus you have to believe in the religion

lol that reminds me of the Faith +One Episode of Southpark, "I want to get down on my knees and start pleasing Jesus, I want to feel his salvation all on my face..."

HAHAHA classic...

Nick

The first time I watched this film I was 12. After rewatching it, I began to ask myself, why would someone choose to believe in this trash. I understand that everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion, but come on, this book that I'm critized by so many christians for not worshipping is telling me that slavery is okay.(Exodus20- 20/21) My opinion is that someone had their own personal interests in mind while they were writing this down; why would god want some people to be ruled by others?

AlyssaO

I wonder how religious people can still believe after being presented with contradictions in the bible, the ruthlessness of god, and the scientific evidence proving the bible to be fiction. I am convinced they cannot form an opinion nor have any concept of original thought. Either that or they really need something to believe in. Brainwashing is a powerful tool as well, as Manson demonstrated. Anyways, I tried hard to be christian when I was younger, but none of it made sense. How is it that god created light before he created the sun? He also created the moon and stars to provide light in darkness, but the moon doesn't produce light. Also, why would he make trillions of stars that we cannot even see with the naked eye if the point of stars was to light the way? All this nonsense on the first few pages of the bible. I wish the christian response to these questions would be "Good question, I dont know," but instead I know I'll hear some ridiculous fantastical "reasoning."

The whole burning in hell/living in heaven is bizzare as well. Personally, I want to die. Heaven's probably too overpopulated for my liking. If god is going to make be burn in hell for not believing in him despite me being a good person, then that's not somebody I want to believe in.

It's tragic how many people have been condemned for going against religion. It's also tragic how religious folk cannot understand how people can be moral without a set of doctrines to rule their life. My morals are seeded in the good of mankind and our planet. I would think that would be more encouraging than my morals being based on a selfish desire to go to heaven.

Hopefully it's only a matter of time before the bible becomes disproven and the churches start accepting facts. Science has convinced them once before with regards to what celestial object revolves around which. It only took them a hundred years, but they adopted the facts. I'm talking about Galileo's book expanding on Copernicus' idea that the Earth revolves around the Sun and not vice versa. This idea, of course, went against "holy scripture" and Galileo was declared heretic and was sentenced to house arrest for life.

All in all, I cannot wait for people in society to take responsibility, put destiny into their own hands and leave the "comfort" religion provides for them so they can accept the truth.

Amen.

Roberto

The purpose was to control the masses. And it is still being used for the very same purpose today.

Morals did not come from religion.
Values did not come from religion.

But the wonderful belief of SIN did. How degrading and utterly dehumanizing a thought the idea of SIN is.

aristidh koka

Jesus was a kamikaze and you know who use them.
the secret services.

Vilhelmo

Wars are almost never over religion but instead more mundane things such as land and resources. They may be clothed in the language of religion but are never over religion alone. Religion does not always = literal fundamentalism. Just defining what religion is as separated from other spheres of life (economics, science) change depending on the society. What people believe depends on who one trusts, and no one is capable of checking every single fact that one needs in order to construct a functioning world view. We all have to take some things on faith, we have no choice, but when faced with new information we should all hope to be humble enough to reevaluate and correct our beliefs. If ones survival depends on believing certain "truths" it becomes very difficult to question that which sustains ones own life and that of the community in which we exist.

Philonous

@craig bull

If there is plenty of evidence, then why can't you just refute the evidences presented by the author of this documentary? Also, just because a few people went martyrdom doesn't make the belief true, because conviction is simply a subjective state of mind, it doesn't prove something objective but merely believe that it were true. Undermining Christian faith is not absurd, if it were absurd to undermine Christian faith then it would be absurd to undermine any falsehood.

Be

Simple but well done, funny! but like every writing or visual "information" one cannot remove the author's bias views.

Every religion have their fanatics...

watch it but make your own research and find the truth.

Paul b

The OT is both a chronicle and constitution.
It's validity today is for subjective opinion. In the film the maker asked what happened In the 40 years between the death of Jesus and the first Gospel but did not mention James and the church of Jerusalem and the possible first schism between him Peter and Paul.
There are many mysteries in the world that science cannot explain this is neither a reason to believe or doubt.
I liked what Richard Carrier said about ethics and the folklorists remarks on the import of peoples belief simply because they believe.
A good person is a good person and long may our search for the Good life continue.

Gregory McDaniel

Thank you for this thoughful film. I am so thankful that I have been able to detach myself from all relgious nonsense.

Henry

Antoine,
You are a cool aid drinking atheist. Your info on the 16 saviors is flawed as it has even been doubted by your fellow non-believers. Who's spreading myths now!

Corax

Henry-
Mithras is a good example of a christ-like forerunner of jesus. His cult was so popular that it was unofficially the religion of the roman army.

Leo

1+1=2
Some describe Christianity itself was never an extraordinary phenomena, but rather a sequence of historical events.
Definitely what made Christianity grew up till nowadays was the edict of Milan, the legal acceptance of this religion, in the year of 313 by the emperor. If that wouldn't happen christians would be a fragment in the History or rather much smaller. Also the power of Catholic Church, political and military became bigger in the next centuries. The Pope keep his power even after the division of Catholics and Orthodox as the power was centralized in Rome. Aware of that were all the barbaric invaders after the fall of roman empire. To have the control of such power was the desire. Charlemagne, for instance, knew that and wanted that. The Popes also knew that they needed allies in order to maintain their existence and their power.
The Catholic church keep existing during centuries building some alliances and destroying others. Crusades, Ignorance all all the dark times of middle age helped the Vatican to keep it's great power.
Martin Luther, for his time was pioneer on questioning the religious dogmas and great papal power.
Therefore he was excommunicated the worse thing that a man of his time could have. Interpreting literally the biblical texts he made his own translation of the bible and became antisemitic.
Lutheranism was the rupture with the religious, dominant and unquestionable power established in Europe. John Calvin and the Church of England made some more wounds in the big papal dogmatic domination.
With the council of Trent, the Vatican strikes back powerfully. Inquisition had been invented.
The portuguese discover the world overseas and the spanish follow them. Then others, the dutch, the english, the french.
They all become empires and they all spread their culture around the globe, including their religious belifs.
America became independent, and as a new land full of misteries the new country became a cultural melting-pot and started to re-invented their own way to see this God brought by europeans. Envangelic churches and all related christian variations were invented. Quickly all this reinvented forms started to come back to europe and become popular there too.
There's other thing very important that made all this story work out well for Christianism. Belifs as well technology maybe vanish but they never disappear completely. Just think about the old Coptic Church for instance.
Zoroastrianism was the first monotheism: one single God and not more. From it judaism was born. From Judaism, Christianism was born, and from both Islamism, the youngest. All this tradicional philosofical systems, all this folklore keep living genaration after generation till nowadays.
My conclusion is the people since always felt the need to believe in something bigger. Maybe for their own happiness, believing that something or somone out there is looking and taking care of them.
My question is what makes us be sure that we Men from the west, from the world as we know it are right about what we believe. We live in world with multiple belief systems and deities. Are the decendents of the first legal christians the owners of truth?
Does a man in the middle of the amazonic rain forest that never heard about Jesus Christ neither his apostoles, neither God be worng about whatever he can believe? If it's truth that we are all the same in His eyes, so nobody is right and all are wrong, or nobody is wrong and all are right.
If you get till here, thanks for reading and sorry for some eventual language errors as i am not an english native speaker.
thanks.

Phrykk

Sadly, this doc fails to bring any real evidence to light that Jesus didn't exist, instead you get a former Christian with an axe to grind. I have heard the argument over and over and as of yet never seen any convincing proof of such a theory. It is also very obvious that the film maker has done little to no theological study outside of his indoctrinated upbringing. I do give him credit for applying critical thought to his own belief system, something we all could benefit from, although to go from being a Christian to, apparently atheism, show's the film maker's lack of personal stability. Its one thing to find fault within ones own religion. Its another altogether different to become an atheist. Like it or not folks, atheism is a faith based line of thought. If you don't believe me ask Richard Dawkins to prove that god doesn't exist. If he could, he would. But he can't so he won't. Its really too bad he didn't state his real point clearly, that Christian fundamentalism is the recruitment arm for the Republican Party. Simple, to the point, and easy to prove. Can I get an A-men?

Joedirt

good doc. thanks.

sonia martin

You know there was air before we came into existence. Our coming into existence didn't extinguish it. We have corrupted it, and continue to do so even when we know better and air,is one of the components necessary for our survival. #2 There is lots of things that could have been in existence before our debut and which may still exist. Because the mind(s) can or cannot grasp the idea on their own terms is not proof of anything. The possibility of a God, a creator existing should have a tiny corner in the mind of reasoning people, all arguments about space aliens and make-believe aside. #3 The pattern for a saviour may well be documented by many old fables and religions. That so many people, so different, over such a period of time, perhaps before and after Jesus, came to agree on what it means to be a savior must cause thoughtful people to pause."If we were to have a savior what would he basically be like?" But the first, the natural human reaction would be to invent a Saviour from earth. So? Are these Christians saying, "We've given up on finding a "Savior" on earth? We're looking somewhere else." The answer they find is not the answer we look for. That Jesus never presented his kingdom as political is his agreement with what is in the heart of every person. Have they given up on life or realized it? We have paid dearly for allowing Christianity to be politicized (and this is not talking about the separation of church and state). If we can't see how we've corrupted those simple teachings then we will continue to be slaves to our politics.#4 We invented a great many different planes but WE didn't invent flight.
Our little alien eyes dart about so many thousand times a second to see the parts of any image we observe and then the brain connections link those parts together - we never see or experience the whole of anything at any one point in time. So, our knowledge of anything at all, is at best parts. #5 With the discoveries in science continually changing science, etc. we ought to get the message that thinking our way to a God is only possible if there was some form there to begin with. #6 Birds fly. We build planes. We build planes so we create a bomb that is dropped on our enemies. Now we are faced with other nations wanting to make the same bomb. That's our incomplete mentality. We use up for excess those resources on which our life depends. That's our incomplete and impatient mentality. Now, using that mind to define "God" - wow, what mis-images might we conjure up? #7 Given the fact that we are egotistical creatures, not recognizing our own limitations in a realistic way, I can see how Jesus is an insult to human intelligence. So be it. Concl:Has religion been used for wrong purposes - yeah - were we forced to use it for wrong purposes or did we choose to? Do political parties consume and misuse every thing they get their hands on, including religion - sure - but be sure that there are Christians in both parties of this the infalliable, all-wise, all-seeing United States of America of whom our fancies of superiority in "knowing" and "understanding" anything at all will probably be forgotten, proven wrong and laughed at, if not hated for the damage we've done to the earth that supports us (something that can be credited across the board to believers and unbelievers - which should give us a clue)while this crazy Jesus story goes on and on. We imitate. We do not create. Therefore we look for the creator wishing that were no longer were the imitators. or we look into the darkness in our own meer immitators.

zee

3:45
And the Angels said: "O Mary, God gives good news of a word from Him. His name is the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary. Honourable in this world and in the Hereafter, and from among those who are made close."
3:46
"And he speaks to the people from the cradle, and in old age, and is from among the upright."
3:47
She said: "My Lord, how can I have a son when no human has touched me" He said: "It is thus that God creates what He wills, when He decrees a command, He merely says to it "Be", and it is."
3:48
And He teaches him the Scripture and the Wisdom and the Torah and the Injeel.
3:49
And as a messenger to the Children of Israel: "I have come to you with a sign from your Lord; that I create for you from clay the form of a bird, then I blow into it and it becomes a bird by God's leave, and I heal the blind and the leapers, and give life to the dead by God's leave, and I prophesize for you what you shall eat and what to store in your homes. In that is a sign for you if you are believers."
3:50
"And authenticating what is present with me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden to you; and I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so be aware of God and obey me."
3:51 "God is my Lord and your Lord, so serve Him, this is a Straight Path."
3:52
So when Jesus felt their rejection, he said: "Who are my supporters to God" The disciples said: "We are God's supporters, we believe in God and we bear witness that we have surrendered."
3:53
"Our Lord, we believe in what You have sent down, and followed the messenger, so record us with those who bear witness."
3:54
And they schemed and God schemed, but God is the best schemer.
3:55
God said: "O Jesus, I will let you die, and raise you to Me, and cleanse you of those who have rejected, and make those who have followed you above those who rejected until the Day of Resurrection; then to Me is your return so I will judge between all of you in what it was that you disputed."
3:56
"As for those who have rejected, I will punish them severely in this world and in the Hereafter, they will have no supporters."
3:57
"And as for those who believed and did good works, God will pay them their reward; God does not like the wicked."
3:58
This We recite to you from the revelation and the wise reminder.
3:59
The example of Jesus with God is similar to that of Adam; He created him from dust, then He said to him "Be" and he was.
3:60
The truth is from your Lord, so do not be of those who doubt.

zee

19:16
And relate in the Scripture Mary, when she withdrew herself from her family to a place which was to the east.
19:17
She took to a barrier which separated her from them, so We sent Our spirit to her, and he took on the shape of a human in all similarity.
19:18
She said: "I seek refuge with the Almighty from you if you are a person of faith."
19:19
He said: "I am the messenger of your Lord, to give you the gift of a pure son."
19:20
She said: "How can I have a son when no man has touched me, nor do I desire such"
19:21 He said: "It is such that your Lord has said, it is easy for Me. And We shall make him a sign for mankind and a mercy from Us. It is a matter already ordained."
19:22 So she was pregnant with him, and she went to deliver in a far place.
19:23 Then the birth pains came to her, by the trunk of a palm tree. She said: "I wish I had died before this, and became totally forgotten!"
19:24
But then he called to her from beneath her: "Do not be sad, your Lord has made below you a stream."
19:25
"And shake the trunk of this palm tree, it will cause ripe dates to fall upon you."
19:26
"So eat and drink and be happy. If you see any human being, then Say: "I have declared a fast for the Almighty, and I will not talk today to any of mankind.""
19:27
Then she came to her people carrying him. They said: "O Mary, you have come with something totally unexpected!"
19:28
"O sister of Aaron, your father was not a bad man, and your mother was never unchaste!"
19:29
So she pointed to him. They said: "How can we talk to someone who is a child in a cradle"
19:30
He said: "I am God's servant, He has given me the Scripture and made me a prophet."
19:31
"And He made me blessed wherever I was, and He charged me with the contact-method and towards betterment as long as I am alive."
19:32
"And to be dutiful to my mother, and He did not make me a rebellious tyrant."
19:33
"And peace be upon me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the Day I am resurrected alive."
19:34
Such was Jesus, the son of Mary, and this is the truth of the matter in which they doubt.
19:35
God was never to take a son, be He glorified. If He decrees a matter, then He simply says to it: "Be," and it is.
19:36
And God is my Lord and your Lord, so serve Him. This is a straight path.
19:37
So the parties disputed between them. Therefore, woe to those who have rejected from the scene of a terrible Day.
19:38
Listen to what they say and watch on the Day they come to Us. But the wicked today are in clear misguidance.
19:39
And warn them of the Day of remorse. When the matter is decided while they are oblivious, and they do not believe.
19:40
It is We who will inherit the Earth and all that is on it. And to Us they will return.

Yet Another Opinion...

"Christianity came into existence in order to lighten the heart; but now it has first to burden the heart so as afterwards to be able to lighten it, consequently it shall perish" - Friedrich Nietzsche

A prime mover only shifts the problem. If every complex structure needs an architect then your prime mover must be even more complex than anything he created. So who made your architect? Where does he come from? What is he made of? It's a concept that every Christian I have ever encountered or witnessed can never answer with a direct response, they all claim that God created mankind and the universe in 7 days but they can never answer the question of what actually created their supposed creator.

It's rather absurd and delusional to believe in something so elaborately fantasised about yet so vague and inexplainable in any rationable order.

"And if there is contradiction, keep the faith, burn the proof..." A quote that sums up what religion has survived upon over the years, they believe what they have been told and then ignore the truth, then go on to infect more feeble minded people with their cancerous stories and lies...

Trish

Everyone is missing the boat. Those who profess Christ must allow the tares to grow with the wheat as He spoke of. We are not to judge anyone for what they believe or don't believe, or the lifestyle they choose to live while on this earth. We are commissioned to show that divine love that eminates through us to all mankind. It will be the supreme judge of the universe that will decide all mankinds fate at His appointed time. In the mean time, we can only repent of our own misdoings and must feed and clothe the poor if we are truely Christ's people. For as He said, if one man has two coats, he should give one to the man who has none. He also said how hard it will be for the filthy rich man to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. If anyone has any complaints to make, let them acuse the Global bankers and their N.C.C. and W.C.C. U.N. Harlot 501-c-3 "state" incorporated churches that lie in bed with the Kings of this earth that strip nations of their sovereign beautiful indegineous ways of living. Oh yes, and penalize Monsantos for destroying and converting naturally created nutritious food into Frankenfoods that destroy the entire structure of living things that eat them. You'll all be doing mankind and ALL living things a GREAT favor. This video and blog conversations is trivial nonsense in comparison.

Oli

Good documentary - should be compulsory viewing for brainwashed religious types...then they will finally be `saved'! (from their silly beliefs)

joanne

Heb 8:4 I think you mis-represented this verse...
For if he were on earth,he should not be a priest,seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law.
Keep in mind Jesus was from the tribe of Judah and at the time the temple service(priestly office) was still being carried on by the tribe of Levi (Levites)
You say "if Jesus was a person who really lived nobody told Paul..."thats a bold claim..Paul HAD to have heard Stephen preaching about Jesus...Paul was at Stephens stoning.Paul was trying to get people to stop talking about Jesus as 'the christ'

Keller

Religion is poison. Death is terrifying and some people never learn to cope with this reality of existing and dying and ceasing to exist. People use this fear to control others and give them false hopes like they can one day see love ones they've lost and will live with them forever in paradise.

If God came to earth and told you that he loves you more than any other of his creations in the universe but had no control over death plus THERE IS NO HEAVEN would you still worship him even though there is nothing in it for you? There is no selfless act and religion is not exempted from this.

People like to think that they will be saved for the good they do in the name of religion. I consider my self a good person and I do good things for others all the time even though when I die I KNOW AND HAVE ACCEPTED that I will decompose and cease to existReality is ****, get used to it.

http://www.myspace.com/goddessofissues Kat

actually Christianity spread through WAR! It was called
CONVERT OR DIE!

NOLIESDOITELL

It would be wonderful if everyone knew who wrote the bible and how it was put together.

Faith is different from logic, if we can agree on this fact then maybe we as "people" can get along.

Topaz

I love this debate. Can't wait to watch the doc. :-)

Omen

religion is no fun.religion endangers the life and happiness of millions.IT MUST STOP.i appeal in particular to the youth of today. STOP THE MADNESS!!!!!THERE ARE BETTER THINGS IN LIFE.

Jason

I was filled with the baptizm of the Holy Ghost over 11 years ago! There is a God and his name is Jesus. Jesus Christ was God in work clothes who came to this earth for the work of redemption. When he comes back the second time the partys over! The Battle of Armageddon is approaching rapidly! Do your reasearch! " The Fool hath said in his heart there is no God" Dont Be foolish!!!!

Billy Bingbong

Oh no all the religious nuts have come out of the woodwork!
Please stop wasting perfectly good sundays indoors pretending an invisible man is watching you!

azilda

If you want to put a good argument in gear...post a religious video. You'll get the most bashing, hating and accusation comments.
There are no religious people at least not what religions claims to be...there are only millions of people who are not willing to say I AM GOD and so ARE YOU for fear of being bashed, hated and accused. God is not outside of you, God is not, you are and so am i.
Concience or awareness needs all of us to experience everything simultanously every second of every moment of space/time. We are together waxing and waning, we are the ocean looking for a grain of salt, but the salt is within.
az

666

Adam and others... sorry, but I just couldnt keep my LOL in. The 10 commandments were so great, huh? Yet no where in there does it say to treat one another with respect, that all humans are equal, nor that pedophilia, rape, etc is wrong. NO WHERE do these "laws" say not to hate. Quite the contrary, it gives silly and perverse laws. Women are counted as property, and the punishment to those that do not observe the Sabbath, even to pick up sticks, is to be stoned to death as stated later in the Bible. Hell, god was so great he told Moses to tell his soldiers to keep virgin women as plunder.

As Maher said: "And at least half of the Commandments are stupid...If you were going to make a list of like the ten things you absolutely can't do, wouldn't you put on there rape, incest, bestiality, slavery? But, instead, they have things like "Don't swear," you know, "Don't build statues to other Gods," obviously the ideas of primitive man living in primitive times, and this is what you look up to."

And if you don't think Religion is about control, most religions are basically like this: Do as I say, or you are going to go to hell.

To reiterate, Maher said: "And at least half of the Commandments are Stu ~ pid."

And also, ponder this situation: If you are in Nazi Germany and are hiding Jews and helping them escape when the SS comes to your door and asks if you know the location of any Jews, would you "bare false witness"?

wtflol

Jason, get over yourself. Damn, I can't believe how this doc brings out the crazies. christians have been preaching the world is going to end since the religion began. It's been 2000 years and we are still here. And if you actually bother to read the bible, the writers make it abundantly clear that they think the apocalypse going to happen in their life time. Foolish are those that base every aspect of their life on blind faith, not logic.

But hey look, I can quite fiction too!
"I've sent him to his death" -Gandalf from Lord of the Rings.

Circular reasoning using the bible is not good, mmkay?

Phrykk, how the fick does going from christianity to atheism show personal instability? It shows logic. And btw, there is nothing wrong with atheism. Religious folk openly admit their belief is base on faith, atheism is based on logic, e.g. god did not create the world in 6 days, there was no global flood in which a 900 year man rounded up every animal on earth, etc. Myths are broken every day. There are thousand of god or goddess related myths that are dismissed everyday, because we have advanced as a species to know enough that sacrificing a bull to the fertility god isn't going to make us have babies or make the rains come.

Meanwhile, I've never seen christians offer any more proof than personal accounts, just like the hundreds of alien abduction stories and accounts of the Loch Ness monster and leprechauns. Saying "I feel him" is not good enough, there are people in the crazy ward that say that about the orange monster that traveled back from the future with a time machine.

REH

I am sorry that your experience with Christianity has lead you to the place you are at. It is obvious your presentation centers around your fundamentalist religious experience. The below quote about the 16 Crucified Saviors is taken from Wikepdia, pay attention to the last line. Certain quotes you reference Jesus saying in the movie from Hebrews and Luke are taken out of context, I believe. It appears that the video is guilty of the same fabrications or exagerations as it claims Chrisitianity to be guilty off.
Thank you for the exercise you provided me.

The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors (or Christianity Before Christ) is an 1875 book written by Kersey Graves. It asserts that Jesus was not an actual person, but was a creation largely based on earlier stories of deities or god-men saviours who had been crucified, and descended to and ascended from the underworld.

It has been noted that Graves derived "many of the most important facts collated in this work" from the comprehensive 1833 work, the Anacalypsis, by Sir Godfrey Higgins. These works thus present an early variant of what would come to be known as the Jesus myth hypothesis.

The book is often used as a source for many Jesus myth hypothesis writers, including Acharya S, Tom Harpur and John G. Jackson.

Atheist activist Madelyn Murray O'Hair was a fan of the book.

The book's accuracy has been questioned by both Christian[1] and atheist scholars,[2] with the general consensus being that the book is unscholarly and unreliable.

jojomejojo

Any and all religions require to become a turnip.
An unthinking, unquestioning vegetable.
If that is your aim in life, you are free to do that, however do not undermine the ability of humanity to go forth and advance. Stagnation is death. Please, do not drag us down with you.

Sam

First of all I have to say I am not an atheist, but neither am I a member of any religion or church.

Did Jesus exist? probably, yes. Is there any proof? Well I vaguely remember at least 2 contemporary mentions of a 'teacher' (going on memory here so don't quote me !) both however were brief mentions and based on hearsay, not eyewitness accounts, and neither mention him by name but were believed by Scholars to refer to him, (I guess I could look them up given time if I were so inclined, but I'm too lazy lol). The majority of accounts however are post death by at least 70 or more years and so we have to assume a degree of propaganda.
Do I believe he was the Son of God? Well as far as we are all 'God's Children', then yeah, why not ........ as far as being a direct genetic descendant from the almighty - Nope, sorry guys. No virgin birth either, I mean he had older brothers for crying out loud, so how would Mary manage that one - answers on a postcard please ;)
I think whether you believe in God or not, the teachings attributed to Jesus are the kind of things everyone should strive for anyway ..... Be nice to people, forgive others as you would want them to forgive you, give without expecting to receive in return, don't sit in judgement of others, don't kill or steal etc. All good rules to live your life by no matter what you believe in IMO.
As for organised religion in general, I personally think the blind following of anyone or anything without the exercising of free thought and taking everything as Gospel (pardon the pun) without doing your own research is always asking for trouble. That said, I would not condemn those who do follow organised religion anymore than I would condemn those who don't. I think everyone should be taken on their own individual merits, regardless of their belief or lack of it.

Of course if we were discussing a really serious life and death subject, like for instance, football (soccer to some) then that would be different. I'd be much less tolerant LOL :D

Jim Lunsford

This whole business of religion is just hilarious to me. All of you christians, who claim to study your book but don't, are so laugably infantile with your bronze age mythological beliefs. Anyone reading the bible, and by reading I mean with the questioning aspect of a scholar instead of the blind faith of the ignorant, would quickly figure out the book is a crock of lies. Talking snakes, angels, pschotic prophets, murderous wisemen, funny how none of them really can be verified outside of the one book. Grow up christians.

dan

Very good. There is no evidence that Jesus ever existed. And if he did, he sure didn't look like that, but of course he didn't. In fact, there is a plethora of evidence to prove Jesus did not exist! Well done!

I remember when I was a believer and I asked Church leaders about historical Jesus and they stuttered and stammered and finally gave me the usual faith answer mumble jumble - and then told me to go away, and I would burn in hell for daring to ask questions and to think!

So I did my own research, particularly outside of the Bible, and was horrified by what I learned -- you covered most of it here. One of the biggest con jobs in the history of mankind is this nonsensical Jesus stuff.

It is okay if you look upon the Jesus story as myth the same way we look upon Zeus and his son Hercules (BTW, it is the same imagery). But is seems like most Christians don't even know history at all.

chickendome

no video....just something in german maybe? bummer.

POZZIMYSTIC

i am soo glad the bible is not true! I really never thought you could squeeze God into a book

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_K5WXILLHI7WJCDSYBXZFKAWWGU billy

The friends of Jesus where scared and hid after the death of Christ. I do not know if it was 40 years though? If Paul does not mention the life of Christ it is because he did not know him. He became a Christian after the death of Christ. Paul killed Christians and had them thrown to lions. It was his Job.
America is the most tolorable nation on homosexuals, other nation kill them. America being raised up as a Christiian nation Believes in freedom, God say's every man should govern himself. FREEDOM, you choose.
Stem cell research --- adult research is fine, taking little babies and sucking live brain stems out before the baby is killed is just common sense wrong.
Someone said rape is not mentioned as wrong in the 10 commandments, adultary - is not having sex with anyone except your spouse.
Christ came to set women free. -America--- Look at other nations the women is horribly treated. They do not follow the bible.

There appears to be nothing more offensive than organized religion.
If religion was, as they say, a personal matter, then why do you need a special building to talk to your creator? Why do you need someone whom you don't even know to tell you about God? Why do you need a 2000 year old book to tell you to be a good person, to not take what isn't yours or to not kill?
Are people so morally lost that they need to be told how to behave by scaring them into thinking they'll suffer for all eternity if they don't?

I don't claim to know who or what God (if it exists at all) is but I'm pretty sure I can guess what God isn't.

An all loving being wouldn't judge you for who you love, who you are or what you do with your life so long as you didn't kill anyone and never caused any serious trouble.

Organized Religion will be the downfall of Humanity.
If we rise from the ashes, I hope those who come after us will look back and disregard the petty superstitions and ignorance that today causes civilization to rot from the inside out.

eugler

I suggest you don't trust blatantly biased sources just because their point of view pleases your own.

http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

HA brilliant.

eyecandy_babydoll

"Why do you need a 2000 year old book to tell you to be a good person, to not take what isn't yours or to not kill? Are people so morally lost that they need to be told how to behave.." Sadly, people are morally lost, in the past and even more now.

Religion serves to calm and direct, those who follow are lost and need guidance. If they could think for themselves, they would. Our world is filled with people who can't think for themselves. They also scare and attack those who have an independent mind and can think critically, because they are afraid of people who can't be easily controlled.

The various different Gods religions created are made to serve those who WROTE the rules - the men in power of the time. Hence you see religions refusing to accept other religions are legitimate and condemning those who leave or believe in other faiths. Why? Because they want to exert control over their followers. Pretty friggin' obvious.

eyecandy_babydoll

"Why do you need a 2000 year old book to tell you to be a good person, to not take what isn't yours or to not kill? Are people so morally lost that they need to be told how to behave.." Sadly, people are morally lost, in the past and even more now.

Religion serves to calm and direct, those who follow are lost and need guidance. If they could think for themselves, they would. Our world is filled with people who can't think for themselves. They also scare and attack those who have an independent mind and can think critically, because they are afraid of people who can't be easily controlled.

The various different Gods religions created are made to serve those who WROTE the rules - the men in power of the time. Hence you see religions refusing to accept other religions are legitimate and condemning those who leave or believe in other faiths. Why? Because they want to exert control over their followers. Pretty friggin' obvious.

MusikalFuture

The context of the first verse posted on the video is twisted; Heb 8:4 "If Jesus had been on earth, he would not even be a priest." If you were to read the entire portion of scripture surrounding this ONE verse that was pointed out, you'd understand how it was taken out of context. Paul wasn't using this verse to say that he thinks Jesus wasn't ever on earth. He was saying that Jesus is the high priest on the right hand of God the father, in Heaven. Paul was simply making note of the fact that here on earth our laws and the pharisees of the times were so corrupt, that even Jesus, the Messiah, God incarnate, wouldn't be able to be considered a priest, due to the laws and standards placed upon earthly priests in that time. Paul is simply pointing out the corruption of the law of the people.
This is the type of thing which makes these sort of videos so believable, and deceiving. Every answer that you seek, can be found in the scriptures, but in the appropriate CONTEXT of them. Meaning that you shouldn't just simply read one verse and form an opinion from it. You should take into fact the entire chapter, book, passage, the surrounding verses around the one you've chosen to point out, etc etc. The truth can be found, but only by an open and willing heart. The root and purpose behind this video isn't to find truth, but rather it is to destroy Christianity by destroying the roots and foundation of it.

Keep in mind that the apostle Paul, wasn't the "only link," or the only way in which Christianity was spread. 11 of the 12 disciples of Christ were martyred as Christians, followers of Christ.

http://www.facebook.com/thepeterplatt Peter Platt

@MusikalFuture .. You said: "If you were to read the entire portion of scripture surrounding this ONE verse that was pointed out, you'd understand how it was taken out of context"

And then went on to explain what YOU understand to be the meaning (which oddly enough, is an opinion of context... Which means that it is already out of context). You said:

"Paul wasn't using this verse to say that he thinks Jesus wasn't ever on earth. He was saying that Jesus is the high priest on the right hand of God the father, in Heaven"

"Paul wasn't" was he? "He was saying" was he? ... Were you there with Paul and Jesus when it happened?... Better yet... Was the SCRIBE for this passage even there?

Hows this for losing context: I highly doubt that there were voice recorders and I highly doubt that scribes were on standby for Paul and Jesus when they spoke.. The best analogy for the bible I can put forward is this:

***A drunk in a bar pukes all over his own shirt, which was brand new before he came in. “Damn,” he says. “I puked on my shirt again. If the wife finds out, she’s gonna kill me.”

“Not to worry,” says the bartender as he sticks a $20 bill in the drunk’s pocket. “Just tell her someone puked on you and gave you some cash to cover the cleaning bill.”

So the drunk goes home and tells his wife about the guy who puked on him. She reaches into his pocket and finds two twenties. “Why are there two twenties?” she asks.

The drunk replies, “Oh, yeah, he crapped in my pants, too.” ****

--------Now re-tell the joke to someone without looking at it and get them to write down exactly what you said.

Out of context perhaps?

http://profiles.google.com/dribblepig Matthew Willard

This as opposed to in the beginning something (which is really nothing) exploded in a big bang and 16 billion years later here we are... Pretty arrogant when we are told that science has cracked the mystery that can account for the past 16 bil years, yet still dumbfounded by the first micro seconds. Let's leave matters of philosophy and social science to those arenas and get to working on things that matter - poverty, famine, injustice and the like. If you need a bronze aged fairy to give you hope, that great's, but lets not be so smug to think that we know it all because science told us so... That's just as ridiculous.

http://profiles.google.com/rosiewonderdog Deb nelson

I found it easier to watch the video by letting it play through once, while I did something else, and then coming back to view it. Also, it can be purchased on Amazon (I bought two copies) to share one. This is a very good and thought-provoking film!

gregorcampbell4

This video is thought provoking in some instances, yet in others a complete lie. Brian Flemming spends an hour twisting opinions that are being taken completely out of context and also blatantly using false verses and testimony to convince people that God, Jesus and Christianity is wrong. One example is found 32:06 into the film. This quote from 'Jesus' found in Luke 19 v27 is actually a parable, a story Jesus tells a group of people about a King and his servants. Unbelievably it has been used as a quote directly from Jesus to what his opinion was on non-believers, that they should be killed! It's actually disgusting how he can put this in an use it as a way of making Jesus out to be bad. Ben Flemming must think that we the general public are completely idiotic will not to check the references out for ourselves. To summarise, a very poor piece of investigative Journalism. Don't watch this movie if you want a true and non-biased opinion of Christianity. Mr Flemming you should be embarrassed by this piece of work, this is honestly the worst and most biased documentary I've ever seen.

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_HQP4SQS7IOP3PHL5TA2S3L4G3I carlwhart

There are many who call themselves Christians yet also consider themselves enlightened enough to believe in evolution and not believe in silly Old Testament stories like Adam and Eve and Noah's Ark. But just what do they believe in? Salvation? Salavtion from what? Eternal damnation? Salvation is only necessary if we were indeed eternally damned for Eve's unpardonable sin of eating an apple in the Garden of Eden, so no matter how enlightened you are, if you believe that Jesus is your savior, you must therefore also believe in the preposterous story of Adam and Eve--you must be a creationist.

There is evidence that Jesus was a historical person--an ordinary human. And it seems he might, perhaps, have been a very wise man who had some good things to say about love and compassion, but that's as far as I am willing to go in "believing" in him.

As a pastors kid, I fully understand his resentment of Christians, and especially how they indoctrination children. BUT.... get your facts strait. I will, and always will, listen to cold hard facts. AND.... get your facts in context. I spent half the video facepalming, and the other half feeling bad for you. I don't feel the need to point out the problems as they have been fleshed out in earlier posts. I, though, completely agree with not indoctrinating children in a "get out of hell free" method. You are a prime example of the anger and resentment that builds. Let go of your anger. Im not telling you to convert, I'm telling you to come to a place that you can truly be unbiased, and see the world as what it is. You found people to say what you wanted to hear and presented fact out of context to get a point across. this is misleading and an embarrassment to science. You are just as much a preacher as my father is on sunday.

Guest

facepalm back at ya

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=723079259 Kitarina Brown

Original Sin is a concept that was developed by early Christians leaders such as the hermit-like Tertullian and Augustine; both of whom proposed many other additions that were not...let's just say they didn't fly quite as well. Original Sin is not actually present in the Bible itself but was thought up and suggested (then later widely accepted) after the last Council of Nicea finalized the 'official' 'Word of God'. The competing ideas were (among others) that humans were inherently good, that some humans were good and others unsaveable, and that all humans have a clean slate on birth but thru their own actions sully themselves with sin. The later is still a belief held by many sects of Christians; the more sensible ones if you ask me.

There are more issues with your assertion that being Christian automatically = strict creationist, as well as more issues with you Biblical and historical assertions, but I can't really blame you for them. The sad thing is, one of the things this film gets VERY right is that most Christians know almost nothing about the founding of the religion. Sadly, neither do those who are not Christian. This misinformation and misrepresentation leads to ill-informed arguments being hurled from both sides. Not saying that you are one of the argument hurlers, it just distresses me that there is such a reticence to examine the actual hard evidence of the founding, and the influence of the people we know were real rather than focusing on figures such as Jesus and the Disciples who may or may have been real. I guess in the end, debating rather or not Jesus was real or myth is a lot more fun than talking about a bunch of stodgy old men convening over which books and beliefs ultimately make the cut.

http://www.facebook.com/ElmoPutz David Foster

Many of the things most Christians believe aren't actually in the Bible; therefore, I can only assume most have never read it.

"This misinformation and misrepresentation leads to ill-informed arguments being hurled from both sides" - Exactly!

http://www.facebook.com/ElmoPutz David Foster

Hehe!... You should meet my girlfriend... A prime example of anti-Christian resentment... Calls herself "The Most Baptized Person in America", because (to hear her tell it) everyone in her family had a different religion, and they all tried to convert her. Now, just the mere mention of God makes her cringe. And yet, she will sit there and watch the Ten Commandments over and over again. Go Figure!?

Aslan Hollier

"worst and most biased documentary" You mean like religious documentaries would be like? This guy just takes a side. Had an outright Christian made the film, then it would be the same, yet opposite. In saying they would fight and take things out of context in order to PROVE Jesus's existence.

http://ouchimoo.blogspot.com/ Ouchimoo

"Stem cell research --- adult research is fine, taking little babies and sucking live brain stems out before the baby is killed is just common sense wrong." ?!!??

You know, I think it would be a good idea for you to actually know the process and facts before you spout off such ridiculous claims and suggest we are somehow wrong because of your lack of knowledge.

Also in ties with your ignorance, you should read up on your own book: Deuteronomy 22:28-29

New International Version (NIV)

28) If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29) he shall pay her father fifty shekels[a] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

Just saw this documentary and I must say I was dissapointed in it. The thing about good documentaries is that they are un-biased and show both sides of the arguement so that you can make sure own decisions about the subject. This documentary was from the very beginning completely biased and obviously trying to show Christians in a negative light. They only listed Christians in history who have done terrible things but no Christians who have done good things in history. Yeah there are a lot of "Christians" who are assholes but thats because they are people. There are also a lot of atheists or agnostics or just whatever peopler, that are assholes. You shouldn't base your decisions about what you believe based on what other people say or do. You should base your beliefs based on your studying different religions and the Bible or whatever and figuring out what you think for yourself. Some of the things this documentary says about the Bible are also false which is unfortunate because a lot of people will probably take it for fact because they are too lazy or don't care enough to actually read the Bible themselves. Its so sad when people try to force their beliefs on other people...why can't we just let everyone believe whatever they want to believe! I am a non-denominational Christian but I am also pretty liberal and I hate when anyone tries to persuade someone to believe whatever they believe. I also hate how some people will talk to me for half an hour about why God doesn't exist and why Christianity is stupid and I sit and just listen and let them say whatever without judgement but when I try to tell them what I think about it, all of a sudden they assume I'm gonna try to convert them and they don't want to hear my opinion...that seriously pisses me off. So now whenever the topic of religion comes up, I just ask people if we can please not even talk about it at all. If you don't care to hear about what I believe in thats fine, but don't expect me to care about what you think...

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1035278920 Vic Seay

I thought it was very well done. It was not supposed to be some hyper technical "expose" or something. It was more in line with the Michael Moorer films. Loved the interview with the obviously uncomfortable Christian headmaster! I thought it illustrated very well the lack of real understanding that most believers have in their own faith ( like the constant..."I don't know" and the extra emphasis on "just have faith" as opposed to having concrete reasons for believing in the claims of Christianity). It did seem to just end a bit abruptly though.

http://www.facebook.com/KINGB.FTW Janne Börje Niemi

If one man has an imaginary friend you call him crazy. If? more than one person has the same imaginary friend its called religion.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1236022822 Eden Potter

I watched this documentary and I am the kind of person who tries to see all sides of the story (I also watched "For the Bible Tells Me So"). I am a Humanist, and I have to say this was a good documentary, not amazing. But it made some really good points. Esp. about wrong judgement about homosexuality and just for denying or thinking about doubting the Holy Ghost.

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_PBMMCRDNHOIS52ADJEQXYPEFDU Sophia Motz

The idea that christianity has been the cause of most wars is completely inaccurate. Most of the wars and violence out there have been done by non-christians. Stalin, an athiest, killed fifteen million of his own people. Mao Tse Tung, an athiest, murdered millions of chinese in the Cultural revolution. When atheists kill they are acting in accordance with their view. When Christians kill out of violence they are not acting in acordance to Christ's teachings.
In the end, if you add up the numbers for the anti religious groups compared to the christian wars, you will find that the numbers don't even compare.

:) For more info on this question see "Youtube Dr. Ravi Zacharias Religion and war."

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_EHKCTIWGD2YHNS7YFQ27SVJVLQ Edward

Well she should cringe! And since she loves the ten commandments so much, she should convert to Judaism. Much easier for women, for they don't need that "snip, snip," y'know what I mean?

I for one know all about the revamping of Christianity in 325 CE and how Eusebius, known liar for God, wrote the Church History. He and his peers along with the emperor Constantine determined which books will be included in the Bible, which histories would be kept, which would be "doctored," and which would be discarded. I know for a fact there's is a quote about Christians by Dio Cassius that couldn't be written by him for he quotes Eusebius' Church History which was written 100 years or so after his death!

This is the most laughable anti-Christian film I have seen. The entire section on the holy spirit was a joke. It was directed at the Sadducees (or Pharisees?) for claiming that Jesus was driving out demons through the power of Beelzebub. It is not saying that you deny the holy spirit that makes the difference.

Elina35

Well,shouldn't the children be playing and having fun in their childhood.It's awful to see that children are mind washed since childhood to have "FAITH" in god .... shouldn't it be something that every individual have to figure out on their own, to believe or not to and have every right to make a choice.

Dan Flynn

I was raised Mormon and read my way out of that religion almost ten years ago. Although I resent it, in retrospect I'm glad that it was Mormonism and not a more "mainstream" version of Christianity. Mormons are taught that the bible, as we've inherited it, is not infallible, and that many "plain and precious truths" (as they say) were lost due to human error and/or malice. Of course, the alternative translations offered by the Mormon founder, Joseph Smith, are also baloney, but at least this teaching primed my mind to be able to rise above the bible and Christianity in general. Sometimes I wonder if maybe the whole purpose of ole Joe Smith's con act was to fabricate a version of Christianity so ridiculous as to make it essentially act as a stepping stone for people to graduate from Christianity and religion in general. Thanks Joe!

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_FWMQDARDCSWXL4YVSJES4NXFTM Bobbi Jo

You are so right. I read my way right out of the Mormon faith as well. It saddens me that it is taught not to investigate outside of the readings that the church gives you. You are supposed to pray that it is true, then blame your self for not having enough faith for an answer. Just sit in church, pay your tithing, do your scripture study, visiting teaching and what ever else with a glazed over look on your face and a fake smile. I now question why any one would want to live their lives when it is frowned upon to be a critical thinker and have a little bit of depth. I am now athiest because of the church of latter day saints.

Shane Van-Heer

believers will believe in Jesus Christ, non believers do what they do best (ratchet up c***). athesists, non believers and the like, as you do not pray - hope that you never run into me (ie if you at least believe in hope).

http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

why would an atheist hope that they never run into you? lol what will you do?

Achems_Razor

@Shane Van-Heer:

Right, you would probably piss your pants if you run into atheists, ineffectual religee's.

IndexFossil

Oh so we have a big computer tough guy...typical, believe differently than you and you'll hurt me, thats fine Christian charity Shane Van-Heer.

In fact, "atheism" is a term that should not even exist. No one ever needs to identify himself as a "non-astrologer" or a "non-alchemist." We do not have words for people who doubt that Elvis is still alive or that aliens have traversed the galaxy only to molest ranchers and their cattle. Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make in the presence of unjustified religious beliefs. - Sam Harris - hitchens would say if you don't believe in certain gods that would make you an Atheist ? of sorts

http://twitter.com/MichealKennedy Mike Kennedy

Please reupload the #documentary! #atheism

morty62

The quote from Luke 19 is misleading because the words are in the context of a parable. It is not Jesus actually saying to kill anyone. It is about spiritual death. That kind of cheapens this documentary for me because they obviously needed something to make Jesus, fictional or not, look bad.

http://twitter.com/SaveTWRadio Save The World Radio

Had to turn this off after he describes those burned children at Waco as "crispy fans" of christianity. Not only is that tasteless but it's not even accurate. As crazy as the Branch Davidians might have been, the federal government began the incident by shooting first and ended it by burning everyone to death, so religion wasn't even the cause of their deaths, since they died defending their personal property from an unprovoked invasion, not on some religious crusade.

Martyn Cutcher

I found the point that Paul's epistles made little to no reference to a historical Christ a real "Elephant in the room". One that I am sure few Christians have noticed.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100003494989109 Josh Coker

ehehehe really? and what if i did!? i'm...probably an agnostic. this is NO proof that god exists. NONE. it's an idea that you are taught as a child. have a nice day. pray for me if you want, waste your time, hell i don't give a ****.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100003494989109 Josh Coker

i just shared this on fb...so thank you!! eheheh *high five*

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100003494989109 Josh Coker

i just wanted to say..i'm a former bahai, and they DO NOT force you into believing anything you don't want to. i'm an agnostic. i'm spiritual in the paranormal sense. not trying to say BE a bahai, jsut sayin it's a WAY more laid bakc religion than christianity. honestly? i didn't want the obligation

voltairsbrother

I think if you review this, you will find that the Branch Davidians fired first when Government served warents. It was the final attack I think in which you are refering.

mes23

ur so wrong over thousands of years and im talking as far back as before christ yes religion not just christianity has has been the cause of most innocent deaths around the world all in the name of faith. yes faith not fact and it still goes on today all you have to do is your home work. you should watch The naked truth, that will give you all the FACTS that you need to know.

MilanSlovakia

Gregor and all of You, so called "believing thinkers", think first.
When speaking of this documentary as biased, of course it is. It's trying to open up the eyes of the majority, majority that's confronted with christian and other religious beliefs respectively, from their birth, having only a limited possibility to pick up some confronting ideas.

Not speaking of the main point of religion, especially Christianity, Judaism and Islam in the context of international relations, where these "loving" ideologies still constitute an almost unpenetrable barrier of ancient prejudices, highlighting the importance of the chosen "one" or "a group", stressing the imperfections of the others.

And most importantly, if there's anything biased in this world, It most certainly is religion, set of thoughts and regulations based almost solely on beliefs, not giving any credit to new discoveries, facts and so on.

You guys are still supplying the almost most disgusting institution in the whole history with power, without it, it would already have vanished centuries ago. providing that You're getting anything but "bla bla" from it.

So what the hell is wrong with You.

Lepetitgrenouille

If you don't like Luke 19:27, you might try Acts 3:23 or Rev.2:23, where Jesus says He wants to kill children.

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_ZDROAX5JR4WQ5VJ6USNAX4P6UU David

What is God? Who is He? What does He want from us? How can we know? He is mysterious and gives us few real answers. He speaks in riddles, "I am that I am", and gives us undefined directives. "Thou shalt not Kill" then He gives the Israelites instructions on how to kill the Caananites. WTF??? No wonder people are confused with the Bible!
The Bible, my friends, was written on many levels, in ancient Hebrew, in an alphabetic-numeric script. Read the King James version all you want, you will not understand the Torah. Even if you do understand the Torah, you will not understand the Talmud. These are the commentaries, there are several thousand volumes of them going back thousands of years, of the Torah. It is the greatest single body of work by man on earth. I can't touch it, therefore I can't comment. Who is God? I am that I am. Who am I? God's loving creation.

bdaniels7

Very intriguing documentary. I too, accepted Christ at an early age...then again as an adult. Then went into ministry after attending Liberty Bible Institute. I then went to Seminary and worked my way into a Master's degree...and an Honorary Doctorate. I had many unanswered questions pertaining to the validity of scripture and the contradictions found therein. I went on a 40 day fast... to cleanse my soul and enlighten my mind to what it was that God wanted of me. It accomplished only two things...incredible hunger...and I lost 30 lbs. I was never... enlightened...God did not come to me even though I prayed and lamented. In 2004, I came to the realization that all I had believed was taught..so...in search of answers... I researched it myself...and...because of the dates...times...missing books....contradictions... and lack of..... evidence...I came to the harsh reality that this was made up. I cried for weeks. But...after a time... I came to understand that I am much better off taking ownership for my own reality....this was FREEDOM.

Nicholas Melanson

These quotes from the bible in this movie are lies...look it up for yourself.
This is a really poor documentary with a very bias slant.

istvan gergely

We don't have to undersand everything, simply because we can't.
There is only one thing that we need. LOVE. Through LOVE we will find God, and he will find us.

jhislope

I have to say, this guy seemed to have a personal agenda...Not really trying to inform so much as to attack. I enjoy documentaries of various outlooks and viewpoints... But you can tell when a film is sincere. When its fairly displaying information or trying to force you to an opinion. I feel this is of the latter.

http://profiles.google.com/trcookiiimddmd tom cook

This should be a must view for everyone afflicted with the virus of religion. This and the short George Carlin skit "Religion is Bullshit" might give pause to those brainwashed from birth as I was and make them realize how empty and fruitless mysticism and supernatural fairy tales really are. I happen to be Mensan with an IQ of 148 which gives me the wherewithal to evaluate and discern fantasy from reality which probably the vast majority with even intelligence of the average doctor at 120 and certainly the average prole with his 100 IQ would not have the mental machinery to accomplish. Religion really is the worst mind virus as Arthur C. Clarke said so well.

http://profiles.google.com/trcookiiimddmd tom cook

Then why don't you just grow up and get rid of stupidity? Purge yourself of fables.

http://profiles.google.com/trcookiiimddmd tom cook

Shame, ever hear of TFT? Best not make veiled threats that you cannot begin to back up.

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_4AMPD2QTGJTFQ46QAXBLKUPFEM Peter

The first 3 and 1/2 minutes are pure junk, exposing the amateurish producing. This is absolute tripe.

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_4AMPD2QTGJTFQ46QAXBLKUPFEM Peter

you seriously think this pap passes are cogent material? If so, you are lying about your IQ.

Joehartgra

You cannot find what is not there.

http://profile.yahoo.com/G4KLSTRUSZVVZFSZPTZLOICCYI Tony

It's crazy what people will believe to feel comfort.

helena zlno

this guy is a little frustrated...the narrator...

lolondlovu

Could not get through the frist half hour of this documentary. I think by now, we all get the idea that alot of what religous instituions have done to, what we still think is factual ancient text is, manipulate them for some sort of personal gain and this narrator will have people of faith realizing that "we living a lie, or rather, believing a lie".

The narrator is fatcual, he has soucres which he attempts to adequately back up his agrument. I agree that Chirstianty is not entirely based on fact, alot of the biblical stories are theological however, and this is my question.

The simalarities between all these Gods up to 33AD is astonishing to say the least. Their believes clearly derive from the same source which is the planet. This is evidence of universal common understanding and aknowlegdement of the study of celetrial bodies - astrology. How is this that, that which seemed impossible at that time, understanding cycles and the measurement of time through the movement of the sun, presessions etc could have been so factualy correct?

We shouldnt be stratching our heads falsifying what manifested from such powerful information, in fact we should expect it.

Gutterballs

Before you attempt to display an educated criticism, maybe you should try to learn how to spell...or at least use spell check so that you don't come across as unintelligible.

While I do feel that the narrator has an agenda against the Christian religion that is very clear in the way this film is presented, the facts that are declared are backed up by basic historical research of human history.

Your own criticism of the "simalarities between all these Gods up to 33AD" is flawed. The similarities (correct spelling) are not between Jesus and "all these Gods", but similarities...nay....PLAGIARISMS of the stories of all these other mythological figures written about up to 33AD from as early as 2500BC. Yes, that's right, the earliest account of Osiris is found written on the walls of the Egyptian pyramids two thousand-five hundred years before Jesus was said to exist!

This is clearly a biased diatribe against Christianity (and justifiably all religion, for that matter). It may be a bit distasteful to some. But at least it has the integrity to offer historical truth and the even deeper truth that religion is mere mind control and the foremost divider of the peoples of the Earth for thousands of years.

DrHudd

I made it until minute 14, when the narrator, giving the appearance that he is examining Jesus' life critically and academically, 1.) assumes without discussion that Paul wrote Hebrews, 2.) then quotes Hebrews 8:4 completely out of context, and 3.) finally draws a conclusion from that one verse that contradicts a hundred other things that scholars know Paul wrote.

It's one thing to look at Christianity critically. But this is a very unscholarly attempt to do so.

DrHudd

I made it as far as minute 14 when the narrator, trying to sound like he is giving a critical academic perspective on Jesus' life, 1.) assumes without comment that Paul authored Hebrews, 2.) quotes Hebrews 8:4 completely out of context, and 3.) reaches a ridiculous conclusion from Hebrews 8:4 which contradicts numerous passages that scholars know Paul wrote.

This is the very definition of poor scholarship.

http://profile.yahoo.com/DEOLPVQ7OAXZBSPCVUEIRAIUKQ Thomas Paine

You hypocrite. You're a disgrace

Richard Wellwood

Tom - you are fortunate to have access to the abilities & mental faculties you mention. I agree with much of what you have to say, few who have successfully suppressed their ego and bias when considering these questions would disagree with Clarke's point of view. However, I would urge you not to base your expectations of human capability too heavily on IQ. Intelligence is frequently the easiest road we yet know of to the greater freedom that increased awareness provides, but perhaps it isn't the only one. IQ is also not a constant and can be influenced by factors beyond the genetic - even later in life.

In any case, I would encourage you to use your awareness and understanding gained through your innate talents and subsequent effort to help others become more empowered to discern the truth for themselves - just as you have done. We don't live in a vacuum, and none of us can truly afford to concern ourselves exclusively with our own business. This is why greater power or ability requires greater responsibility, but I'm sure you already know that. ;)

carefreethinker1

I grew up in a family where religion was never mentioned nor was athiesm. It wasn't until my mid twenties when I discovered what some believe to be true, religion. One of my coworkers who I became good friends with was a "born again" devoted Christian. I could tell he was passinate about his religion but I could not understand why. This was twenty years ago, during a time of my live where I really wanted to fit in with people. He was very adamant about convincing me to believe in jesus. At one point, he said something that I will never forget during a hypothetical question on what he would do if asked by god. His answer, "anything" to includ taking his own newborn sons life. I am quite sure he was telling the truth. Sorry Frank, if you're out there reading this post, I'm steal the Heathen I always was...
Roger

http://profile.yahoo.com/S5AD4XBSROE2CSNCTOSCQJWZQA dwagneriowa

I really enjoyed the documentary - even though the music score was pathetic.

http://profile.yahoo.com/GTMBEJ5FSO3IJXUPTTZUBLXYFU Jeff

I grew up Jehovah's Witness and the first time I heard the song, "Every Single Day" it was used in a video I found on youtube about 4 years ago. Someone made a video explaining all the reasons you should NOT become a witness. I remember someone commenting on the video and stating the song was from the this movie. Never had the chance to watch until today. Needless to say, I don't know what took me so long to view this video. As a person who was taught that critical thinking is a trait of the devil, it was the very trait that made him challenge God, this video put it in the perspective my mind could process! I think it's amazing how religion can challenge everything but when it's challenged using the same method (show me the proof) they claim faith as their trump card. This position always provokes an irresistible question, "So is believing in something enough to make it real? If so, how does Santa Claus fit in with this approach?"

Stephen Walsh

DrHudd, Agreed! The filmmaker's argument that the early church didn't believe in the physical person of Jesus is extremely shaky and is based largely on the Hebrews passage. Almost all scholars agree that Paul did not write Hebrews and many Christian Bible scholars have serious issues with how to interpret this book. The Pauline epistles, confirmed and universally agreed to be Paul's, give the impression that Paul believed Jesus was a real person who lived, died, and was resurrected. The authentic Pauline epistles have the highest degree of historicity of all other extant New Testament documents. The film's claim that Jesus never existed is contrary the nearly universal scholarly position that Jesus at least was baptized by John the Baptist and later executed.

Evelina Williams

I hope facebook isn't your God.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=735602951 Michael Haney

Probably one of the most important documentaries ever made.

Joe

Yeah, I'm not gonna rave about any opinion I have cause I'm relatively uneducated, and I think some other people shouldn't either. I would suggest studying the Bible and it's opposing side completely before getting all emotional over an epiphanic discovery about whether there is or isn't a God, or whether the Bible has no credibility, etc.

Steve Lyne

This view is based on selecting a few historical facts while ignoring most of them. There haven't been any atheist leaders until the last century, so practically the entire history of war and inhumanity has involved religious people who often used their religions to justify violence. Also, claiming that Christians who kill are not "true" followers of Jesus is also ignorant. According to the Bible, Jesus declared he had come to "bring a sword" because he intended to set people against each other over their religious beliefs (parents against children, etc.). He also supposedly stated that all the teachings of the Old Testament remained valid, which would include the old "eye for an eye" doctrine, approval of slavery, and so on. Much of the Old Testament is a disgusting record of racism, genocide, rape, and murder by Israelites who believed themselves justified in all their atrocities by their "chosen" status. But their ignorance and evil just prefigured what Christians would later do as well while presuming the same religious justification. It is easy to use the Bible to justify all manner of evil because it is NOT a moral text but a mixture of a few good ideas with ignorance, prejudice, and inhumanity. To view the book as a moral guide, one must be very selective based on the more progressive ideas of today's civilization. We've gone far beyond that barbaric nonsense, but some people unfortunately still cling to superstitions like their ancestors.

Jeff B

This documentary did nothing to persuade me that Jesus Christ is anything but real...it was interesting...BUT it was nothing that would cause me or any other Christian I know to lose their faith...maybe I just missed the main point...I don't know...

Achems_Razor

The main point is that your christian 'faith is just that,' nothing but a mere belief without any real evidence! Show proof that your JC was even real! Man made bibles and quoting from authority won't cut it.

Amanda

If there was hard, tangible evidence of it, it wouldn't be called "faith" now would it? Why does it bother everyone so much if Christians want to believe in God?? People all over the world in so many different cultures have some acknowledgement of a higher power. There has to be some reason why they feel that way about it and there is nothing wrong with that. There actually has been some hard evidence that suggests the existence of Christ (some found by non-Christians), but no one chooses to give it any validity. It doesn't matter what anyone says or finds, there will always be those who believe and those who don't. That is life. I wish people would stop being so close-minded. You would think our intelligence would have evolved enough by now that we could get past our "banging on tables" defensive attitudes towards other people's beliefs and actually just have a mature discussion about without disrespecting one another.

Achems_Razor

Sure, do not care one iota what people believe in, as long as they/christians et al as is a requirement for their brands of religion try to push their religion on to others. You do not see atheists banging on doors etc: pushing a non belief in any man made invisible deities. And for your info, it is usually the religee's when questioned to show proof for their claims , always resort to 'ad hominem' and insults.

K Sean Proudler

The fact that people actually "BELIEVE" this Bible Jesus Christ stuff is shocking indeed.

To "BELIEVE" you must accept without having a direct connection with the truth. Thus you are accepting something while being located at a distance from the actual truth. Thus if you stick to your "BELIEFS" then you stick to being located at a distance from the truth, and do so forever. Thus in the long run, the truth loses since everyone avoids it by permanently staying away from it.

Thus any religious believers in turn by being believers condemn the truth thus condemn God.

The proof of this is that if you present true proof of the existence of God to such "BELIEVERS" they will spit at it and shun it in every way possible. Truth is condemned by them.

If you google "Bible Code Introduction 156 462" without the quotes, you can find the proof of Jesus Christ.

If you find it, click on the flashing words "Watch / Listen", and let the webpage take you on a webpage tour of such proof.

Mark37724

I really don't care what myths people choose to believe in just as long as they play in their end of the sandbox. As for people all over the world acknowledging a higher power...you state that as the majority must be correct. By that rationale, if 90% of children under the age of 10 believed in Santa Clause is that sufficient to conclude his existence?

I really don't find religion to be intrusive in my life and I'm aware that your comments were several months ago, however, if you require proof as to why it is necessary to be vigilant to the oppression of religion, look no further than Hobby Lobby. All people, Christian or not, should be outraged to see that we are not free from religion or free to live by our own beliefs. If the owners were Jehovah's Witnesses, would it be acceptable for them to withhold blood transfusions to their staff in their health benefits? Unfortunately this is not the only example of religious atrocities that still continue so you really can't expect benign chit chat to resolve what you may believe as just a slight philosophical difference, problem is just a little more tangible than you choose to see.

http://1iotofoto.wix.com/otofoto oQ

even atheist have a hard time to take ownership of their own reality especially if they feel that perhaps consciousness is the ground of being