Piney's denim-cut status....I was never clear on how full his membership was. I thought that he couldn't wear the leather because his trike didn't qualify him as an "active" member, but he had voting rights and there's a sign in the chapel that clearly says "you don't ride, you don't vote".

I always thought Piney's denim vest was a personal choice - maybe to show he was old-school or something. I don't ever recall anyone mentioning his membership being second-class.

John Teller and Piermont "Piney" Winston co-founded SAMCRO in 1967 following their return from the Vietnam War, where both men served in the paratroops. [10] Six of the "Redwood Original 9" members were vets; Clay Morrow was the youngest of the original members. John died in 1993, and his widow, Gemma, married Clay.

JT, Piney, and Clay were original members.....anyone know what happened to the other 6 "original" members?

The real old guy who was in prison that Sonny Barger played at the end of last season (had the electronic voice box) is one of the original 9. Aside from Clay, Piney, Irish dude, JT, and the guy Barger played I don't think we've seen any of the others so I guess they're dead.

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - A turf war between the Hells Angels and a rival motorcycle gang that erupted outside a CaliforniaStarbucks shop last year has left several men dead, wounded or missing in three states, stirring fears of more bloodshed.

Ranked by law enforcement as the most severe clash of two California-based biker groups in nearly a decade, the spate of violence turned deadly last month when it spilled into Nevada with a brawl and shooting among members of the Hells Angels and Vagos motorcycle clubs.

The president of the Hells Angels' San Jose, California, chapter, Jeffrey "Jethro" Pettigrew, 51, was shot to death, and one Vagos member was wounded in the melee at John Ascuaga's Nugget hotel and casino in Sparks. A second Vagos member was wounded in a drive-by shooting the next day at the site of a nearby motorcycle rally in town.

The Pettigrew killing -- coming 11 months after a gunfight between the two gangs in Arizona that left five people wounded -- in turn sparked tensions within the Hells Angels' ranks that led to yet another slaying in California, authorities say.

"There have been concerns about this rivalry for some time," said Graham Barlowe, resident agent in charge of the Sacramento office of the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

The last California biker feud of similar proportions grew out of a 2002 casino riot in Laughlin, Nevada, between the Hells Angels and another group known as the Mongols, Barlowe said. At least three bikers died as a result of that conflict.

DEAD OR ALIVE

The latest casualty of the Hells Angels' recent battle against Vagos actually was inflicted by one of their own.

At Pettigrew's funeral in California weeks after he was slain in Nevada, his close friend and sergeant-at-arms of the San Jose chapter, Steven Tausan, 52, was shot and killed by a fellow Hells Angel in an apparent quarrel among club members.

A police source familiar with the investigation said Tausan and others confronted the accused gunman, Steve Ruiz, over his perceived failure to have protected Pettigrew during the Nugget casino brawl, prompting Ruiz to pull a gun on Tausan.

A group of bikers then pounced on Ruiz as thousands of mourners streamed out of the cemetery, preventing police officers at the funeral from making an arrest, San Jose police spokesman Jose Garcia said.

In the end, it was unclear whether the bikers who descended on Ruiz did so to subdue him, beat him or help him escape, but witnesses said he was whisked away in a car, Garcia said.

Suspecting that Ruiz may have been killed at the scene and his body dumped into Pettigrew's grave, police later obtained a search warrant to dig up the burial site, but they found no trace of Ruiz, Garcia said.

Last week, San Jose police received a tip that Ruiz was alive and hiding out in the northern California city of Stockton, but he was believed to have slipped away after investigators searched a home there to no avail on Saturday.

Garcia said authorities now believe Ruiz is on the run with a current or former girlfriend, noting that he has family and associates in Arizona and New York.

The recent bloodshed can all be traced to last year's push by Vagos, founded in the 1960s in a Southern California desert community, into the northern coastal town of Santa Cruz, long claimed as Hells Angels territory, police said.

CAFFEINE FOR BIKERS

Tensions boiled over in January 2010, when members of the rival gangs, some wielding ball-peen hammers, fought outside a Santa Cruz Starbucks before scattering as police arrived.

"It was all about who would be allowed to hang out at the Starbucks downtown," Santa Cruz Deputy Police Chief Steve Clark said. "The Vagos brazenly came in and tried to cement their presence. It was a pretty strong play on their part to establish themselves as the premiere club."

He added: "Only in Santa Cruz would you have biker wars over who's going to control pumpkin spice lattes."

Seven months after the Starbucks ambush, violence between the two groups flared again in a gunfight in August 2010 that left five people wounded and led to 27 arrests in the northern Arizona town of Chino Valley.

The U.S. Justice Department has classified both the Hells Angels and Vagos as outlaw gangs deeply involved in drug and weapons trafficking, as well as extortion, money laundering, theft and various violent crimes.

The Hells Angels, by far the larger and better known of the two, was founded in 1948 in Fontana, California, and has since established over 230 chapters with an estimated 2,000 to 2,500 members worldwide, the government says.

The organization denies its involvement in criminal activity and argues the club should not be blamed for the illegal actions of individual bikers.

Members insist the overwhelming majority are law-abiding citizens who share a love of powerful motorcycles, especially Harley-Davidsons and choppers, and point to their prominent role in certain charity events as evidence that their outlaw reputation is exaggerated by the media.

Karen Snell, a San Francisco-based lawyer who has represented a number of Hells Angels members, said Pettigrew and Tausan, for example, were "family guys."

"They made honest livings. They worked hard and were responsible," she told Reuters.

Police have arrested two people in connection with last month's casino brawl, including Ernesto Manuel Gonzalez, 53, a Vagos member suspected in Pettigrew's slaying.

I never watch the previews, but it never occurred to me that Gemma wouldn't know Clay did Piney. I don't see why that would be a deal breaker for Gemma; she already plotted with Clay to kill her husband, after all. If Clay had run it by her, I don't think she would've opposed taking Piney out, at least not on principle. Maybe on practical grounds.

Ignoring Muttonchops McGee (since that was official business) the fact that Clay has now murdered two of the first nine members of the club for his own selfish reasons is why I feel sure he won't be killed off anytime soon. There is no bigger deal for these guys than protecting the club, and Clay is responsible for by far the most serious betrayals. The show can keep bringing in Stahls and Potters and rival gangs and all sorts of other problems, but it's that epic internal strife that is the key in the long run. In the end it HAS to come down to Jax vs Clay.

If Clay had run it by her, I don't think she would've opposed taking Piney out, at least not on principle. Maybe on practical grounds.

She told Clay not to do anything to Piney or Tara because it would upset Jax. I think it all comes down to Gemma, if she gets sick of Clay then you know he's gone soon. I think she'll just replace Clay with Tig.

She told Clay not to do anything to Piney or Tara because it would upset Jax. I think it all comes down to Gemma, if she gets sick of Clay then you know he's gone soon. I think she'll just replace Clay with Tig.

And you think Tig will make as compelling of an antagonist for Jax as Clay? Even if Tig stepped directly into the president's chair and Gemma's bed, which would be a bit too neat, one of them killed his (and now Opie's) dad and one didn't. It only makes things less urgent and less personal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheCatfishCommander

Anyone else think that last seasons little incident between Gemma and Tig will pop back up soon?

Maybe. At this point I'd welcome it just for Coates to get something, anything to do (the daughter C plot could've been handed to any of the guys to the same result). Not that Rossi, Boone and Flanaghan haven't been doing great with what they've been given.

And you think Tig will make as compelling of an antagonist for Jax as Clay? Even if Tig stepped directly into the president's chair and Gemma's bed, which would be a bit too neat, one of them killed his (and now Opie's) dad and one didn't. It only makes things less urgent and less personal.

IMO, Tig has always seemed to be a good loyal soldier for the club...willing to do the really dirty shit without second thought.

Not to say the other members don't get their hands dirty, Tig just seems to be lacking a certain type of moral compass that some of the other members have.

I couldn't see him in a 'presidential' role unless he was a puppet for Gemma...but when it comes to the club(s), there is a heavy degree of psuedo-misogyny present, so...

And you think Tig will make as compelling of an antagonist for Jax as Clay?

No, I don't mean it that way. I just meant that Gemma wouldn't have gone along with what Clay did to Piney since she already told him to leave Piney and Tara alone. I just don't know what Sutter has planned for the next 5 episodes that would make it possible for Clay to stick around. He's already got Unser and Tara against him and if either of them or Gemma tell Jax about the letters there just doesn't seem to be a way to keep Clay around.

As for the Tig comment, I just figure if something does happen to Clay then Gemma would just replace him with either Bobby or Tig or even Unser (probably Tig). I only said it because she seems like she replaced JT so easily that if something were to happen to Clay she would replace him just as easy and I don't mean as the leader of the club. If something happens to Clay it's definitely Jax's turn. I just mean as the new man in her life.

Most important thing about Tig is his loyalty to Clay. I just want to be there when he finds out all the things Clay has done. He'll be so crushed (we're probably talking "Missy" levels)

Given that Tig was in on killing Opie in the first season I can't see him being that broken up about what Clay is doing/has done. He might be annoyed about not being in on it but otherwise I think he will stay with Clay.

I don't think Tig is going to be on Clay's side. Clay has basically ignored him this whole season and you can tell Tig doesn't feel he's really close to Clay anymore.

Does anyone else think Potter is some how related to JT? I know people are throwing that and the theory that JT is still around but in hiding. I don't think that is true but I really wouldn't be that surprised if Potter turns out to be related to JT. Just with the way that Gemma looked at him earlier this season and seemed like she knew him put couldn't quite tell from where. There has to be more to this guy than just being a sneaky ATF.

Given that Tig was in on killing Opie in the first season I can't see him being that broken up about what Clay is doing/has done.

That was different because Clay (and Tig) thought that Opie had turned rat, which is unforgivable to these people. And when Tig killed Donna by mistake, he had a really hard time with it.

Clay murdering John Teller and Piney was for his own personal reasons (that is unless Sutter throws in a bullshit twist where we find out that Clay somehow did it "for the good of the club"). I can see Tig's loyalty being strained if he ever finds out.

I didn't think Clay would call that number after Gemma spoke with him. I thought all the way until the end that this was Sutter trying to keep Clay around after this season but Clay blew his last chance. Gemma and Unser covered up what happened with Piney and Tara did seem like she wouldn't tell Jax. Now, I honestly just can't picture how Clay can make it past this season. The end of this season really will change the entire show. I don't know what Sutter has planned though for 3 more seasons without Clay.

Also, can't believe Juice worked with Potter and the sheriff again after telling mostly everything (I don't think he told Chibbs about his father being black) to Chibbs and getting a second chance.

The scene where Jax threatened Clay about talking like that about Tara reminded me of when Clay threatened Jax about mentioning Donna in season 2. Only difference is, Clay was in complete control back then. This time Clay knows he can't do a thing about it. The roles have been reversed.

I didn't think Clay would call that number after Gemma spoke with him.

Really? I was so sure of it, I was cursing Gemma's stupidity in telling Clay what Tara was doing. When Clay told her he wouldn't hurt Tara, you could practically hear his hubris thinking, 'no, but some crazy mexican gangsters will!'.

It'll definitely be interesting what Sutter's "out" is, as he sure seems to be writing himself into a corner...

Yeah, I started thinking he would still do it especially when Gemma gave away the info on where Tara was going. I just sort of expected Clay to take out the phone and then put it back in his pocket. I thought this episode would change things a little bit and allow Clay to make it to the next season. There's just no way after that phone call.

Also, what is up with Potter? He just doesn't seem like another ATF like Kohn and Stahl. There's some mystery and I still think he'll be revealed to have some sort of relation with JT. Especially the way he talked to Juice about not going after the club and the club will still be or go back to being a regular MC after he takes down the IRA. It's like he sort of wants the club to just get out of the gun business and go back to being just an MC.

Sorry, I just don't see the Potter/John Teller connection happening. Although Potter is a biker himself, so maybe he has a secret soft spot for the Sons. He could be lying though about not wanting to go after the SOA. Speaking of Potter, his jumping on the table like a girl who just saw a mouse was the funniest thing I've seen in a while.

I thought it was pretty obvious that Clay was going to use the phone even after the talk with Gemma. He had already made his decision about Tara, that's why he was so emphatic with Acaveda about the hit not being linked to him. I still don't think Clay will die this season. It will be Unser, Tara, or Gemma- maybe more than one.

Other notes: Laroy is kind of a bitch. Thankfully, that Unser/Gemma makeout session didn't go too far (I was eating at the time). Most interesting thing to me right now is what happens with Big Otto.

I think I'll be disappointed if it turns out that Potter is just another regular ATF.

Yeah, Sutter has explained the whole race issue. But I honestly don't think the SOA would mind. I think Sutter just threw that in there because it is realistic but I think he'll end up writing it where the SOA doesn't care about race.

I think I'll be disappointed if it turns out that Potter is just another regular ATF.

Yeah, Sutter has explained the whole race issue. But I honestly don't think the SOA would mind. I think Sutter just threw that in there because it is realistic but I think he'll end up writing it where the SOA doesn't care about race.

Well he kind of has. I still don't get why Asian and Spanish falls under the banner of white.

Gemma's not going anywhere. Besides being so important to the show, Sagal's got an in, as it were.

If hubbie was pretty much anyone else then I would probably agree, but since this is Sutter we're talking about, I can imagine her character getting some really meaty dramatic scenes right near the end of the season, then getting killed off in a particularly violent (possibly even degrading) manner. I'd like to think that he would do whatever is needed to best serve the show, even if it means Sagal is out of a job.

"I love trying to find deep in my soul where the justifications for these horrific actions are," Perlman continues. "Because only in that way will the audience know whose side to take. It's not just black and white. There's a sinew behind it and blood and sweat and DNA. ... I think that if we did our job right, the audience will say, 'Holy s--- man, I'm not sure this guy had any choice.'"

On this season feeling like it's a final season:

Quote:

"I'm actually blown away by the fact that we are in Season 4 and we're doing s--- that I only imagined would be dealt with when we were winding everything up," Perlman says. "I can't believe that [Sutter] has the chutzpah to deal with this now and feels that's there plenty of room to top this. He's reshuffling the deck and changing the dynamic of everything. We have the best of all possible worlds here: We have something incredibly climatic, and then we have room for the reinvention of the saga."

Maybe the cartel does take Tara out and then Jax gets deeper into the club but doesn't find out about the letters just yet. Clay might have this all planned out, he gets Tara taken out so she won't say anything about the letters and he gets Jax pissed off enough to focus on the MC. I think Clay knows that if Jax leaves there really is no exit strategy to get out of the deal with the cartel so he needs Jax there with him. While all of this is going on Gemma probably is suspicious about what happened to Tara and goes back and forth on whether she should just tell Jax everything and then she finally does at the end of the season. So Clay makes it to season 5.

Maybe Danny Trejo will sign on to star and the next couple seasons will be about the SOA vs. the cartel with Danny Trejo as the main villian. Or what if Zobelle makes a come back?

Hamlet, son of the king of Denmark, is summoned home for his father's funeral and his mother's wedding to his uncle. In a supernatural episode, he discovers that his uncle, whom he hates anyway, murdered his father. In an incredibly convoluted plot--the most complicated and most interesting in all literature--he manages to (impossible to put this in exact order) feign (or perhaps not to feign) madness, murder the "prime minister," love and then unlove an innocent whom he drives to madness, plot and then unplot against the uncle, direct a play within a play, successfully conspire against the lives of two well-meaning friends, and finally take his revenge on the uncle, but only at the cost of almost every life on stage, including his own and his mother's.

Also, can't believe Juice worked with Potter and the sheriff again after telling mostly everything (I don't think he told Chibbs about his father being black) to Chibbs and getting a second chance.

I don't think Juice told Chibbs much of anything - his cover story was that he was fucked up due to killing the Russians and Miles; the whole ratting-to-the-sheriff/ATF was conveniently left out of it.

Also, while SOA thematically follows Hamlet, there's no reason that Sutter couldn't bring that thread to its likely end and then move on to some different Shakespeare - King Lear (Bobby, Jax, Opie vie for the crown - or try to shift it off onto each other) or MacBeth (Gemma manipulating the next chairman), etc etc. Fuck, even Jax going all Henry V might work, fighting to extricate the club from all its illegal deals and getting it back to where JT thought it should have always been.

The Hamlet thread needs to end in my opinion. That's why I feel Clay doesn't make it past this season. The amount of constant lying and duplicity everyone will have to engage in, if they want to keep this up for more seasons will hurt the show tremendously. Everyone keeping things from everyone else is fun for a little while but resolutions have to come sometime. And at this point I don't think you could resolve anything without everything else crumbling down. The audience will lose sympathy for the characters if they are not able to put 1+1 together for too long. One can only suffer fools for a limited amount of time.

Call me a cynic, but I see absolutely no way Jax is leaving the club, nor is Clay going to die this season. In all reality, they are the two leads, and aren't going anywhere. Which is why, despite the greatness this season has been, I find it also silly to think we are being led to believe either lead will be gone after season end. I promise I am not trying to troll or raise the ire of the masses.

Really enjoyed the last few episodes with a couple of caveats. Characters are being very stupid just to prolong the plotlines. Piney swallowing Clay's bullshit about getting out of the drugtrade, Jemma telling Clay where Tara is. Chibs believing juice. I have a feeling Otto will see through Potter though. He's hurting bad but Potter lied about being a deputy sheriff, so what else is he lying about?

And was Clay wearing gloves when he killed Piney? His fingerprints would be all over the photo and the gun.

There's no evidence that Potter will live up to his word anyway. He's telling a sketchy witness what he wants to hear.

And while Tara and Clay's fates are up in the air, Gemma's not going anywhere. Besides being so important to the show, Sagal's got an in, as it were.

Potter is absolutely lying. There's a reason they've gone out of their way to show us he's an "ends justify the means" sort of guy. He's lied before, and that was to the sheriff working with him (about getting a part of the record removed). Why would he be more honest with a member of a motorcycle club he's been working to take down?

Thinking back to the premiere, it seems like they dropped a couple of promising threads entirely. Nothing has come of the club murdering an undercover agent, and they made a point that the terms of the guys parole prevented them from gathering in public if they weren't at work, which could've been used to throw interesting chinks in things but hasn't.

Just to reiterate, you guys are frickin crazy if you think Clay is going to get killed with three more seasons projected.

I'm very curious where they can take the character, assuming he lives. More cunning deceptions, no doubt.

This has hit a strong stride this season, and I've enjoyed the last few quite a bit. I've never been as committed as a lot of you, but this is certainly one of their better years. I do kind of wish they allowed me to root for Clay, but he's pretty much Ted Bundy now.