When many analysts were analysing why the North Korean put off the launch,KIM JONG UN slapped the nerds.The North Korean made a fool of China,America,South
Korean which has failed third attempt to launch a rocket and Japan that threatened to shoot the rocket down.

I knew this story was going to bring out all the angry crazy warmongering Westerners
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"How dare a small non western country with a different Ideology, culture, values than ours attempt to even achieve any technological breakthroughs, advancement, the only countries that can be allowed to advance must adopt our western values (liberal democracy), culture, if not we will invade and burn all the books! Iran is next!"
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Even though I do not think the North Korean system is optimal, academically as it has been demonstrated it can be extremely efficient successful at achieving its goals.
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I await the angry replies

"academically as it has been demonstrated it can be extremely efficient successful at achieving its goals". You mean its academics are top notch? Or that in theory North Korea is a functional system?

It reminds me of a story of two philosophers arguing. One, Berkeley, claimed something along the lines that matter is not real and had a very sophisticated argument to support it. His opponent kicked a rock and said: "I refute you thus."

We replaced Iranian democracy with the Shah. The Ayatolla got revenge with a little help from a complicit Reagan, then Shrub managed to dismantle their two regional concerns, Iraq and Afghanistan, and the US is still sucking its thumb over the hostage thing.

But Asia is all lightness and harmony. See how the Koreans, Japanese and Chinese all love each other, and how they treat their aboriginal citizens.

On the historical front the US went bananas when the USSR developed nuclear capabilities. We even burned two citizens over it because we couldn't believe those pesky Ruskies had technical mojo. So really it isn't a cultural warfare thing.

PS ICBM tech has been around for some decades, it may be rocket science but it's old hat rocket science

regardless of justification or the lack of it and whatever the launch outcome, it worked for Mr kim and north korea. look at all the attention he is getting now, especially after the 'surprise' launch success.

it must be some mixed emotion for south koreans. while usa and china are face losers here, the biggest loser is japan, with all that commotion it managed to raise before the launch.

Not really anything new here. N Korea was going to launch anyway, the nature of the family cult he now heads is such that it can only survive if it allows the huge military that keeps it in power some outlet. By protesting beforehand the Western powers and S Korea have warned the world they will continue with tightening sanctions and close monitoring of N Korea, China may send some signal of disapproval like reducing fuel supplies for a month or so while holding 'negotiations' - all of which I am sure the regime has calculated it can live with.

North Korea picked 12/12/12' to launch the rocket and makes South Korea look imcompetent. S. Korea had tried a launch of their own for few times and failed, the last one was just cancelled couple weeks ago.
The 'sexy' dear leader has gained a gew points in front of the Korean people.

"The 'sexy' dear leader has gained a gew points in front of the Korean people."

Interesting point - What do surveys of S. Koreans say about this topic?

Is there fear? Anger? Some element of nationalist pride?

There are like 48 million South Koreans, versus 25 million North Koreans, and it would be interesting to learn of their sentiments as it now stands.

I am not sure the South Korean government is feeling too bad about its own satellite failures, yet. Maybe if there are more mishaps in the future?

As for the sexy bit, well Un does seem to have an attractive wife and be leading a more normal sounding home life. Haven't heard of rumors of pleasure brigades, heavy drinking, or collections of the equivalent of the library of congress of porn, unlike his dad.

I suspect a Pew Research poll in the North would be hard to conduct. And who knows, if there is truth about famine having occurred in the recent past and existence of large gulags, then there may be some bad blood that isn't easily innoculated by a rocket launch.

I can see Kim Jong Phat is sitting in his palace, eating Bon-Bon's, getting his royal fat massaged, watching the news and telling his oppressed people with a ball and fist gesture: "That will learn them!!"

Ideologies and nationalism aside, this is an amazingly improbable technological achievement for such a small country with so many problems.

There are only 10 countries that have successfully launched a satellite into space.

There are only 8 Countries who have developed nuclear weapons

I find it truly astounding that despite being one of the poorest, poverty wracked, smallest countries in the world, not only have the North Koreans with just a country of 24 million (Pakistan 176 million, Iran 76 million) been able to develop nuclear weapons, but have also been able to develop missile technology whos ranges far exceed (5400 miles enough to hit the US) even Iran or Pakistan have been able to develop (1200 miles)

How is it astounding? The government takes all of the money and puts it into the military. It has happened for thousands of years, since before Christ. Kim Jong Phat allows his people to starve and die in horrible conditions so he can continue to dump what money he doesn't use to buy groceries for his royal palace, into the military and weapon development.

This kid is a tyrant. An immature one at best. Does this make him dangerous? Would you allow your kids to play with your loaded guns while you were at work only if he was the only one in charge?

This kid needs to be put in his place. He is seen as a deity in his country and virtually untouchable. One well placed ICBM with a non-nuclear payload would do the trick and take out this spoiled little shit and the palace around him. They just finally got a satellite into space.... They would never know what happened if we bombed this kid from space.

They have been working on this stuff for decades, and received support in the past from both the Chinese and Soviets (1980s/1990s). Heck, they even reached out to the Egyptians in the 70s and have collaborated with the Iranians for some time.

Otherwise, Britain had a population of something like 16 million (paul kennedy est. for 1800) when it kicked off the first industrial revolution.

And if Hobsbawm is correct, the English didn't even have the best education system or pool of scientific talent (in contrast to certain German states with the former point, a France with the latter).

So, not that I'm supporting assassination, but inieain did specify a "non-nuclear payload" which would quite probably put a big hole in this particular tin pot dictator. Now, what the Russians and the Chinese would say when an American ICBM went up is another matter entirely. Presumably they wouldn't be thrilled, or necessarily convinced by our avowals that it bore a conventional warhead.

"if Hobsbawm is correct, the English didn't even have the best education system or pool of scientific talent"

True, but they had a solid banking system through which capitalists could lend, a legal system that protected property rights, laisez-faire government, coal, iron, tin, hydro power for mills, captive foreign markets (empire), slavery, protestant work ethic, and a belief that they were superior to others ("The White Man's Burden").

That is why Britain had the industrial revolution first. Compare that to Spain, with no banking system to re-cycle money back into the economy and where most of the new world silver was taken out of circulation as candlesticks on a church alter.

They also had crop up in the 18th century a culture of applied tinkerers from both the crafts industries (thinking like Wedgewood and Stephensen) as well as from the more curious, sober elements of the gentry (Jethro Tull?).

I take mild exception to some points:

Actually the government was mercantilistic until after the Napoleonic Wars, albeit the economy was relatively freer than many of the continental brethren.

The White man's burden came later. I think Lawrence James pointed out that missionaries started lobbying against East INdia company officials from attending fertility festivals and taking "wives" in India around the 1830s. The anti-slave trade efforts may be represent a bit of that attitude too, but that really came after the Napoleonic wars.

As many studies show (Rostow,Perez), the British were already off and running with the Industrial Revolution by the conclusion of the Napoleonic Wars, and on the brink of bringing on the next round of steam technologies (railroads say, ships too).

North Korea is a brutal totalitarian state and nobody would want to live there. The absence of night light is always presented as an indicator of how backward N. Korea is, and it is. But in itself, the absence of light pollution is desirable. Who really wants to live in megacities that glow so fiercely bright in the dark that you can never see the stars in the sky? Patrick Moore made this point more than once.

I'm definitely agree with u. these people haven't a bit of brain health. they're out of the ordinary. nobody would ever be able to do something like that. not even Russia or China, indeed I gotta say they were really kindly and friendly towards the USA. this is another of the most important criminal attack that damages the US. I think we gotta talk with them at least we ask them to explain the reason of this act

I think this is a unacceptable thing. no one should do this. they ARE CRAZYYY. today the begging of a war can only means the end of the world. the nuclear bombs and one's radioactive waste are the principal danger in the world. the cold war was avoided just because of this and right now when Usa and Russia don't fight anymore it gotta start another nation what it was about to happen in the past. we gotta use our diplomatic weapon and start talking also with these countries trying to make them reflect. this is madness, this is an event which won't gotta repeat nevermore.

The launch has wide geopolitical ramifications particularly for South Korea, Japan, Western Allies and China. Still one thing which can't be denied is that it is indeed a big scientific accomplishment for a tiny International pariah. Enemy or a friend, credit must be given where it is due. As for not prioritising hunger, poverty and so on , I think one lesson that invasions of Iraq, Libya et al. has taught all these 'Anti-West' regimes is that advancement in military technology is the only insurance against Pre-emptive Invasions . Iran has also started capturing sophisticated drones and making one of its own . Unlike North Korea, It has a greater reason to choose such path as it is sitting on one of the largest reserves of Crude Oil in the world and is located at the head of Strategic Strait of Hormuz, making it a much more tempting & viable target than a cold and barren North Korea in a tight embrace of the biggest army of the World-PLA, that sees it as a critical buffer state for its Heartland.

Just to be clear, I am not cheerleading the Kim dynasty or Ayatollahs here or their ideologies but the scientists of these countries who are able to pull off these things despite the huge odds stacked against them. I am also not getting into morality of such actions as International Power politics is not run by emotions or morality rather by the different countries' relative economic, technological and military clout. As Former US President Dwight Eisenhower had rightly put- "History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. We must acquire proficiency in defense and display stamina in purpose." All countries are acutely aware of this reality and act accordingly.

"Seem to overlook the fact that North Korea has a history of preemptively threatening neighbors and committing acts of violence."

Who's seen as the threatener and Who as the perpetrator of Violence depends largely on which part of the world one lives in. It's the national Government and a country's education system that decides such subjective things. An American is more likely to defend US Government's actions against foreigners than an Iranian or a North Korean and vice versa. In Pacific, Chinese citizens are more likely to see US as threatener and American citizens are more likely to see China as the threatener. The ordinary people just follow the local Victor's version of History, fight as loyal foot soldiers and get killed in Wars. Whichever side wins, gets to write history and the process goes on. Apologies, If I've damaged the rosy world view.

"Seem to overlook the fact that the Soviets and China aided North Korea's missile programs off and on over several decades, into the 1990s even (think Makeyev Design Bureau)."

Again very difficult to ascertain as to who exactly aided and to what scale and for what were North Koreans waiting all these years.

Actually, there is a very clear difference between science and engineering. Science is all about discovering new information about the world. Engineering is the application of that information (combined with stuff that we just know from experience) to do things.

"Rocket science" is properly called Fluid Mechanics. The understanding of how fluids (e.g. the gases flowing through rocket engines) flow, depending on density, viscosity, pressure, proximity to fixed surfaces, etc. is science. The use of that understanding (summarized in the Navier-Stokes equation) to build a rocket engine is engineering.

Even if it was (which I seriously doubt ), so what? Fluid Mechanics is itself a Science cum Engineering. Study of Turbulent flows/Hypersonic flows etc. fall perfectly under your own puritanical definition of Science, leave alone my liberal version.
As for the doubt, Rocket Science is usually taught under Propulsion Science/Systems though one is expected to have workable knowledge of Nozzle flows, fuel mixtures, Structures and other stuff . Again, no absolute boundaries here as well.

1) I would contend that, if one is finding new genes and what they do, one is a scientist. Likewise if one is inserting a new gene in order to find out what it does. However, if one is inserting new genes for the purpose of creating a specific characteristic in the organism, one is engaged in engineering -- regardless of whether one's degree or job title says "science."

2) When I studied the subject, Fluid Mechanics was taught in the College of Engineering, specifically in the Department of Mechanical Engineering. I believe that was the case at the other campuses of the University of California which offered that major as well. The courses included a great deal of mathematics, and a fair amount of physics, but the focus was on "how do we use this knowledge to do stuff?".

I'm not sure what else related to rockets you would characterize as "rocket science." The electrical engineering involved in controlling the rocket? The ballistics involved in setting its course? What?

1.) Now, There is a good example of wishful thinking.
2.) I am under the impression that you've not studied subjects such as Turbulence and other complex topics in Fluid Mechanics. If you would have, Then you wouldn't be saying "how do we use this knowledge to do stuff?" , as the very knowledge behind these phenomena is yet to be acquired. Your knowledge seems to be primarily confined to playing around with Venturi Tubes & at best to scribbling Navier Stokes Equation which is essentially Newtonian Classical Mechanics translated into the field of Fluids. For your information, At High Temp & in cases of High turbulence, Fluid behaves in a very strange manner . Navier Stokes and other 'Popular' Classical stuff no longer applies. We have just some ad hoc statistical models to work with and the research is ongoing, all within Fluid Mechanics.

Rocket's primary job is propulsion, not to give aerodynamic lift like a wing or supply electricity to houses; So I think one should not confuse oneself and others as to where Rocket Science belongs. Workable understanding of a good number of other topics is required to help the Rocket propel -that's a fact, that I or you can't change .

2) Actually, I've got both a BS in Mechanical Engineering and an MS specifically in Fluid Mechanics. So I'm all too aware of the limits of our understanding of the situation. (Which is why my earlier post included the phrase "combined with stuff that we just know from experience.") But just as classical mechanics is sufficient for many purposes, without invoking quantum mechanics, the Navier Stokes equation deals with most fluid flows adequately. And it was specifically used in designing the rocket motors which took us to the moon.

Sure, there are situations where it is insufficient. And research is required to better address those. The research is science. Using what we know to design rocket engines is engineering.

Oh, Little Leader felt ignored by the Evil West? The troubles in Egypt and Syria, and the recent presidential election in the US and all that, and no one was paying attention to Dear Little Leader? While the so-called economy in that hell-hole of a place getting worse, Brave Little Leader needs some more food and all sorts of assistance for the miserable people of North Korea who willingly starve so that Bad Haircut Little Leader can play at statesman. So, Cunning Little Leader needed to scare those witless decadent Westerners in general, and the US in particular, to supply his long-suffering people with food and other assistance he cannot (will not) provide for his people. And the West, as the good little dupes they are, will send food shortly... Oh, please....

Cunning fake news of pushing off the launch issued by the so-called "retarded toddlers" one day before the real launch simply made a great fool of their two neighbours- Japan and S.K who'd been making proative preparations nationwide. Personally, I think this event is the most dramatic and interesting one of world politics this year. P.S. Congratulations to N.K's success, for the end of the world shall not come!

The North Korean Regime by refocusing the international spotlight,
Is the best friend of Iran, Pakistan, Al Qaeda, the Muslim Brotherhood, and Syria.
If it wasn't for North Korea, the West would be considered an anti Islamic Cabal.

I don't know where you live, but as a North American, knowing these nutjobs have taken the first step towards an ICBM is worrying.

If you are comfortable with North Korea having both nuclear weapons and a long range delivery system, I don't think you appreciate just how irrational, dysfunctional, unpredictable and dangerous it really is.

I think any unstable state with nuclear weapons is a worrying prospect, including Pakistan and India (although India is clearly the more stable of the pair). If I were Indian or Pakistani, I would wholeheartedly agree with you - the biggest nuclear threat would be from one or the other. But North Korea clearly has a bigger hate-on for the US than either of those places, and this launch suggests they may be the closest to an ICBM of all three. I think the use of an ICBM on the US by North Korea is an extremely unlikely event, but they seem to think they'd be in a better bargaining position if they could theoretically nuke Los Angeles, and I think they're probably right about that.