Cataclysm Post Mortem -- Quest Design with Dave Kosak

To kick-off our World of Warcraft: Cataclysm post mortem series, we sat down with World of Warcraft Lead Quest Designer Dave “Fargo” Kosak to discuss his thoughts on questing in Cataclysm.

Q: What were your main goals going into Cataclysm?

Certainly from a quest design standpoint our primary goal with Cataclysm was to remake the old world, specifically the 1-60 questing experience. World of Warcraft was released in 2004, and we've learned so much in the years since about what constitutes good MMO gameplay. We wanted to make sure that the game was relevant to new players coming in, and walking up and down the length of the Barrens on foot over and over just didn’t do it for us anymore.

Remaking the entire old world -- 46 zones! -- was ambitious. Actually, it was ludicrous. It was like re-releasing a whole game in the course of an expansion cycle. Then we added a couple new races and their starting zones on top of that. I’m not sure how we convinced ourselves we could make it happen, but somehow we pulled it together.

Q: Are you happy with how the old world re-vamp turned out?

I am. Leveling up a new character to 60 nowadays is a great deal of fun. Every zone has stories to play out, with interesting nooks and crannies and plenty of hidden gems or references for players who remember the pre-Cataclysm world. Zones like Ashenvale now live up to their premise (intense Horde-vs.-Alliance combat), and previously empty zones now have a lot of character (see: Azshara). The content just flows. It's still World of Warcraft, but the quests have a modern feel, with lots of action and storytelling.

Q: But what didn't work out so well?

We really spread ourselves thin and taxed the team. The original plan was to totally re-do a handful of high-priority zones, but to leave a lot of the zones that worked mostly alone. We categorized them into "red," "yellow," and "green" zones. The idea behind the green zones (for example, Loch Modan) was just to tweak the quest flow to be a little smoother, but not to make any major changes.

The reality is that even the green zones really needed a lot of love. Once we got in there, it was all or nothing: we ended up completely re-doing a lot of green zones so that they met our new quest design standards. We came up with a nickname: "watermelon" zones. They were green on the outside, until you got in there and started poking around. . . .

Where that hurt us was when it came time to do the max-level content, the 80-85 zones. The content there turned out well, but the experience is inconsistent across the board -- Uldum feels totally different from Hyjal, which in turn feels different from Vashj'ir. The design decisions and efforts we made didn't always yield the desired results.

Q: Tell us more about the level 80-85 zones -- what worked and didn’t?

We were aiming for a really global feel with Cataclysm, so we set the max-level zones in varied environments all over the world (underwater, across deserts, in the elemental plane of earth, etc). However, as a result, they ended up not feeling as connected as we'd like. You get widely different experiences in zones that aren’t geographically related to one another. That's something important that we're keeping in mind moving forward – World of Warcraft works best when there's a sense of place. A connected world to explore.

We feel the storytelling in Cataclysm was strong. Whether assembling the ancients in Hyjal, rescuing your drowned crew in Vashj'ir, or reassembling the world pillar in Deepholm, there’s a strong sense of plot in every zone. Players participated in stirring stories, like bringing the Dragonmaw into the Horde via a violent coup or reuniting the Wildhammer Dwarves with a crazy wedding. These were memorable moments and shared experiences.

The downside to creating these stories is that the zones on the whole ended up being way too linear. For example, because we wanted to show your character re-growing the burning devastation of Mount Hyjal, there was really only one way to play that zone: you started at point A, and you worked your way through to point Z. Pretty glorious the first time, but frustrating on your second or third character because there's only one way to do it, and no way to skip around. That's a lesson we’re going to carry forward for sure. We want big sweeping stories, but we want to give players the freedom to explore those stories on their own terms.

Q: Places like Hyjal also used a lot of phasing to show the world changing.

We have a massive phase shift halfway through the story that changes the terrain for nearly a third of the zone. It's epic, right? But it can be a real pain for players when so much of the world changes like that. Phasing is like a story sledgehammer: it gets the job done, but at best it splits up players and at worst it totally confuses them.

We're going to be a lot more careful going forward. The Firelands dailies in patch 4.2 gives you a much better idea of our future direction. There were sweeping visual changes to the world as you progressed, but there’s very little actual phasing. For the most part, everyone is playing together on the same map. That’s important to us. Looking ahead, we’re going to be a lot smarter about how we show changes to the world, and we’re going to do everything we can to avoid splitting players up.

Q: Talk more about the 4.2 patch. Were the Firelands dailies a hint of what’s to come?

Definitely. With those dailies we were able to engage a lot of players, myself included. (I was the first quest designer on the team to get the mount and all the achievements on the live servers -- suck it up, slackers!) Previously, "doing dailies" meant hitting the same quest givers for the same three quests, usually in a static place. Here we were able to deliver a sense of progression and a story that unfurled over the course of a few weeks, all as you did a constantly changing set of quest objectives in a dynamic environment. We think that worked out well.

Moving forward, we're going to look for more opportunities like this -- ways to keep people engaged and cool things to do solo with your max-level character. We've got ambitious plans.

Q: Patch 4.2 also had the Aggra and Thrall questline, "Elemental Bonds." Did that meet your expectations? How do you feel about Thrall's character development?

That's a tricky one -- we’ve got mixed feelings. The essential story is a good one, and we really wanted to portray all the inner struggles Thrall is going through. Here’s a guy that stepped down as Warchief and had to rediscover himself as a shaman in order to save the world. And he's haunted by his decisions: he’s afraid of what’s to come, paralyzed by doubt, angry at what Garrosh did to Cairne . . . the guy's a mess. We figured out a way to show all that internal tension, and we wrapped it up in a story that demonstrates how his mate, Aggra, will literally go to the ends of the world to pull him through this. It's a powerful love story, and a story about finding one’s inner focus.

But we had to do a lot of things to make it work in the game. We needed to make a quest that 500 people could do simultaneously without getting in each other's way. We wanted a quest that players could do solo, no matter what their skill level. We didn’t know if the player was decked out in raid gear or level 85 greens, so we had to keep it simple. We somehow made all of it work under those restrictions, and we filled the screen with some killer imagery (I love the vision of Thrall immersed in the Abyssal Maw). But ultimately the quests themselves ended up not being as compelling from a gameplay perspective as we would have liked. Many players blew through them once and never looked back.

I really think we can do better. Cataclysm was in many ways Thrall’s story, but it was hard for players to follow his development over the course of the expansion. Going forward we want to convey a clearer narrative, delivered in the context of solid gameplay. We have some ideas on how to do that, and we’re also going to keep experimenting. This is important to us -- we talk about ways to tackle this problem all the time.

Q: The Cataclysm patches also saw the debut of some legendary weapons: Dragonwrath and the Fangs of the Father. Will future legendaries be this, uh, legendary?

Good question. We love class-specific content, but quest lines like those are very resource-intensive. Each sequence involves weeks of development focus that takes content away from dungeons, dailies, or outdoor zones.

The feedback from players (and from our own team) has been overwhelmingly positive. Dragonwrath proved to be extremely popular, and allowed caster classes to get a front-row seat for major lore moments otherwise reserved only for dragons. Meanwhile, Fangs of the Father was pure rogue, from the theme to the mechanics. It was super-targeted and extremely fun -- it proved to us the value of focusing in on a specific class and tailoring the content to their abilities. Given that the audience for these weapons consists of badass raiders, we didn’t hold back on the difficulty either, so these quests were great for people who wanted a real challenge.

The short answer is yes, we'll definitely continue doing these moving forward. Most likely future legendary quest lines will be built similar to the rogue experience: a couple key story moments, a lot of flavor, and some very specific challenges. But I wouldn't expect very many quest lines like these. Like legendary weapons themselves, they're going to be rare and special.

Q: We haven't even talked about goblins and worgen yet. What lessons did you take away from the new racial starting zones?

In both cases, the starting areas really sold the character and tone of the new races. The worgen area is so marvelously gothic, and Kezan is unmistakably unique and gobliny. The art and the quests all work together to establish a racial character. So that’s a big win.

As for the mechanics themselves, I’m glad we were so experimental, but our general feeling now that all is said and done is that we went a little too ‘gimmicky’ with the player’s initial experiences. Everyone can agree that the goblin experience gets pretty wild in places.

That's a big lesson we're carrying away from the expansion as a whole.

Q: Can you elaborate?

Overwhelmingly, players have told us that they want more quests where you have to flap a giant bird around a cave while targeting creatures in a 3D space.

Q: Seriously?

Maybe not . . . But moving forward, we're re-focusing on core gameplay mechanics. World of Warcraft works best when you’ve got your boots on the ground and you get to play your class. To that end, we’re concentrating on giving players lots of fun combat challenges in continually changing environments, wrapped up in a terrific story that’s propelled forward by the quests. Whenever we do special mechanics, we want them to feel special, and they’ll never tear you away from combat for very long. Our goal is to load up the world with lots of interactive spaces, cool encounters, great characters, and neat spaces to explore. That’s part of the reason we’re keeping you grounded (literally) in Pandaria, and why we’re focusing on a single continent. But I’m getting ahead of myself. We’ll talk more about Pandaria soon enough.

Comments

Comment by Adamsm

on 2012/02/28 12:44:33

We figured out a way to show all that internal tension, and we wrapped it up in a story that demonstrates how his mate, Aggra, will literally go to the ends of the world to pull him through this. It's a powerful love story, and a story about finding one’s inner focus.

Um...not really heh; the love story portion of that quest line was sickening, badly written, and just plain horrible....just like Aggra herself.

Comment by kickthecat

Every zone has stories to play out, with interesting nooks and crannies and plenty of hidden gems or references for players who remember the pre-Cataclysm world.

There isn't anything hidden or even gems to be found in this current iteration of 1-60, guess he didn't really play old 1-60

We really spread ourselves thin and taxed the team. The original plan was to totally re-do a handful of high-priority zones, but to leave a lot of the zones that worked mostly alone. We categorized them into "red," "yellow," and "green" zones. The idea behind the green zones (for example, Loch Modan) was just to tweak the quest flow to be a little smoother, but not to make any major changes.

Now all the naysayers who feverishly defend the new 1-60 'revamp' can read this and know not all old zones got the same love. Blizz themselves knew they got into brick walls by taking on a project much too big/advanced for their current team and painted itself into a corner it nearly got trapped in

The reality is that even the green zones really needed a lot of love.

/facepalm, you need a good wake up slap Mr 'Fargo', this is why you don't do things half-heartedly

Where that hurt us was when it came time to do the max-level content, the 80-85 zones.

Glad you know this (no thanks to poor planning and resource allocation for the above). Don't repeat it again, see how the old team actually improved on questing but not at the expense of end game content

Heres hoping we don't get any more post-mortems in MoP regarding their own failed decisions again

Comment by Dreadkrieg

on 2012/02/28 12:51:18

Hear* and Cataclysm wasn't that bad. I can't say I liked the new zones being all over the place, but I don't think anybody did and they just did what they could to makr the best of it. And the remade Azeroth had it's problems but it was something new for everyone.

Comment by Interest

on 2012/02/28 13:18:57

Q: Can you elaborate?Overwhelmingly, players have told us that they want more quests where you have to flap a giant bird around a cave while targeting creatures in a 3D space.

Lawl this one made me laugh pretty hard.

Comment by Broksar

on 2012/02/28 13:46:48

We figured out a way to show all that internal tension, and we wrapped it up in a story that demonstrates how his mate, Aggra, will literally go to the ends of the world to pull him through this. It's a powerful love story, and a story about finding one’s inner focus.

Um...not really heh; the love story portion of that quest line was sickening, badly written, and just plain horrible....just like Aggra herself.

I couldn't agree more. The love story was as unnecessary as the character of Aggra. There were times where she was almost literally nausea inducing during the four elements quest chain. I actually started grimacing every time I heard a raspy, baritone "Go'el!"

Comment by gorski

on 2012/02/28 14:01:41

I don't know anybody that enjoyed doing molten front dailies. It wasn't engaging or progressive story telling. We ran to the same spire over and over again. Ran through the same cave over and over again. Only reason to really do that was because they didn't come out with any other means to get entry-level gear. They could have introduced new dungeons, but nope, we got dailies. Do those dailies every day on all your 85s for about a month each. Those dailies sucked.

As for the old world remake, they haven't touched on the fact that now that they're all centered around the cataclysm expansion, all those zones are going to be out of date when MoP and any other expansion comes out. They spent all that time and effort just to take away everything nostalgic about the old world. They introduced transmog("go do old stuff so we don't have to put out new stuff") so people can go back and do old content raids, but they wanted to change everything else about what made vanilla special. On top of that, the timeline is that much more stupid. Imagine being a DK, starting out serving the Lich King, then go to a retooled Deathwing-y Twilight Hammer leveling zone, THEN go to Outland to chase after Illidan, THHHHEENNNN go back to chasing after the Lich King, AAAANNNND THEEEENNNNNNNNN you go back to Deathwing crap.

They don't realize how lost they really are.

Oh and I can't wait for them to tell us how they gave us just the same 2 long retarded troll dungeons in 4.1 to do over and over. It wasn't even progressive content! They gave us 2 dungeons to grind out to get entry-level gear so we can go back and do the same 3 raids that this expansion started out with.

Only reason 4.3-patch is as they call 'successful' is because we don't have to spend as much time in their game. No more dailies, no more rep grind, no more doing the same 2 long troll dungeons 7 times a week just to get valor-capped. Look at the number of lost subscribers over this expansion. They loosened up their grip on their players because they just couldn't compete with the newer games coming out. They need to learn from this experience and stop diluting themselves thinking that everyone loved what they did to the game.

Comment by Hamandeggs

on 2012/02/28 14:11:48

Overwhelmingly, players have told us that they want more quests where you have to flap a giant bird around a cave while targeting creatures in a 3D space.

I didn't particularly enjoy actually doing this quest, but creating an homage to Joust is simply awesome. Please don't hesitate to pay tribute to classic games. But fewer vehicle-quests in general would be my preference.

Comment by Gzer0

on 2012/02/28 14:11:49

so these quests were great for people who wanted a real challenge.

It seems to tough prediciment not challenging , Dilemma !

Comment by Broksar

on 2012/02/28 14:57:27

I don't know anybody that enjoyed doing molten front dailies.

I love the dailies. They're fast and easy and fairly centralized.

It wasn't engaging or progressive story telling. We ran to the same spire over and over again. Ran through the same cave over and over again.

Dude, they're dailies...

They could have introduced new dungeons, but nope, we got dailies.

That part I'll agree with. They talked big *!@# about the dailies and in the end they're just freaking dailies.

Do those dailies every day on all your 85s for about a month each. Those dailies sucked.

Dude, they're dailies.

Comment by Nishnig

on 2012/02/28 14:59:26

moving forward, we're re-focusing on core gameplay mechanics. World of Warcraft works best when you’ve got your boots on the ground and you get to play your class.

Ok, glad to see they did take away the correct conclusions. Overall, though revamping the 1-60 content was a mistake. Nobody is going to decide to stick with WoW because leveling an alt is slightly easier this time around. Especially since most people leveling alts have Heirlooms and/or guild perks to help with leveling causing them to level faster than the content, wherein they get stuck by the linear quest design. They'd have been better off just changing Outland to make sense for DKs and find a way to work the quests so that it feels like your character is progressing through the storyline, instead of the almost time travel that happens when you hit 60, and then again at 80.

Comment by Arrd

on 2012/02/28 15:14:13

I don't know anybody that enjoyed doing molten front dailies. It wasn't engaging or progressive story telling......Do those dailies every day on all your 85s for about a month each. Those dailies sucked.

Go back and try the tourney dailies. There was suffering. The molten front dailies added some variety, you did have some choice which to take. You didn't have to go to the spire everytime you realize? There was a different path. I also didn't do the dailies on all my alts. I didn't need to, the gear wasn't that critical to progression. Oh and the dailies were alot better than jousting lol.

As for the old world remake......the timeline is that much more stupid. Imagine being a DK, starting out serving the Lich King, then go to a retooled Deathwing-y Twilight Hammer leveling zone, THEN go to Outland to chase after Illidan, THHHHEENNNN go back to chasing after the Lich King, AAAANNNND THEEEENNNNNNNNN you go back to Deathwing crap..

This is a problem I agree, it goes hand in hand with the problem of making the zones too linear (which they admitted). More side stories not specific to a particular point in time would help. Thats something they could still add in without too much effort. And truthfully not all the quests in outlands and Northerend are that specific to the storyline. Alot are just about killing scourge that are still there.

I'm still hopeful that Outland and NR will get some love. If they can limit themselves and not delude themselves into diluting their efforts, then there is room for tweaking those zones.

Only reason 4.3-patch is as they call 'successful' is because we don't have to spend as much time in their game.

If you have that much angst about the game, all I can suggest is that it's time to move on.

Comment by VK107

on 2012/02/28 15:51:53

Wow I am so glad to see people actually sticking up for the old content and hating on Blizz for things they have done wrong (Finally!) instead of the damn noobs coming in and just spreading around stupidity.. Blizz, long story short, you messed up. There were positives and negatives to things you did, unfortunately, the negative overruled.

Comment by Elladaryn

on 2012/02/28 16:10:15

I really loved the new lore of old places like Westfall, Redbridge and Ashvalley. Thoose places used to be pretty boring but now they have a strong questline (kinda of linear, but ok). The only thing that makes me sad is that Outland should also have some changes.

Comment by Soldrethar

on 2012/02/28 16:16:25

We figured out a way to show all that internal tension, and we wrapped it up in a story that demonstrates how his mate, Aggra, will literally go to the ends of the world to pull him through this. It's a powerful love story, and a story about finding one’s inner focus.

Comment by Adamsm

The only thing that makes me sad is that Outland should also have some changes.

An Outland and Northrend revamps are in the works.

Comment by oblivion04

on 2012/02/28 16:21:40

That’s part of the reason we’re keeping you grounded (literally) in Pandaria

Sorry if ive missed a post somewhere but... soulds like no flying to be allowed in continent of Pandaria ? or is that just me reading in to things too much?...

Comment by Adamsm

on 2012/02/28 16:24:03

That’s part of the reason we’re keeping you grounded (literally) in Pandaria

Sorry if ive missed a post somewhere but... soulds like no flying to be allowed in continent of Pandaria ? or is that just me reading in to things too much?...

You can fly in Pandaria once you hit 90; from 85 to that point, you'll be grounded.

Comment by Link977

on 2012/02/28 16:50:59

I think the reason why Cataclysm didnt do as good as they thought is because of the fact that all the areas were re-done, but for people who dont really play for the story, just kinda zoomed through the new stuff and got bored fairly quickly.

Comment by berserkcrazy

on 2012/02/28 17:02:31

so cata was pretty cool new terrain to memebr and all new quest and some story changes too

Comment by eventhorizon

on 2012/02/28 17:08:35

So are other classes going to get a class-specific legendaries? It feels extremely unfair that rogues get their own legendary. Will there be a druid legendary? Warlock legendary? Mage legendary? Paladin legendary? You can see where I'm going with this.