Living with Pluto / Part 1

Interview with Liz Greene, by Nicholas Campion

Liz Greene is one of the most influential astrologers of the
postwar period. Building on the work of predecessors such as Alan Leo and Dane
Rudhyar, she drew lessons from 20th-century psychology, particularly from the
writings of C. G. Jung, to create a psychological astrology that is rooted in
the understanding of psychology as consisting of dynamic processes rather than
personality descriptions. Beginning with Saturn in 1976 and Relating in 1977,
she has produced a remarkable series of books which have deepened and
elaborated her original insight that astrology is as much about what we can
become as who we are. She holds a doctorate in Psychology as well as the
Diploma of the Faculty of Astrology Studies (she is a Patron of the Faculty)
and is a qualified Jungian analyst. She is Director of the Centre for
Psychological Astrology, which she formed in 1983 with the late Howard
Sasportas. For the Centre's training and seminar series, see www.cpalondon.com

I met Liz
in London on August 14, 2001 to conduct this interview. In view of the disaster
of September 11, her enunciation of the Saturn-Pluto zeitgeist has taken on a
profoundly prophetic air.

The
original article appeared in the American astrological magazine "The
Mountain Astrologer" (Dec/Jan 2002). The edition is still available on
their website www.mountainastrologer.com

Nick
Campion: To
start with, Liz, I'd like to talk a little about Pluto, the planet of the
moment, especially in view of the current Saturn-Pluto opposition. I've been
reading what you wrote about Saturn and Pluto in your book Saturn; you stated
that, when these planets combine, "there often seems to be a carefully and
deliberately organised movement towards some sort of self-destructive experience."[1]
You added that the person may be aware of this obsessive movement but may not
be able to control it. I have that Saturn-Pluto opposition squared my Sun at
the moment, so I was thinking: "How can I be conscious about it?" In
fact, how does one become conscious of something? Have you experienced that
opposition this year, in terms of your clients? Has it been noticeable?

Liz Greene: Oh yes, very noticeable.
There aren't many people who are not getting it in one form or another, because
it doesn't just involve planets in the mutable signs. It is also hitting things
by semi-square and sesquiquadrate. That pulls in all the cardinal signs as
well. So, yes, a lot of clients are beginning to put on their armadillo suits.

Nick
Campion: Do
you mean that they're getting into a self-protective posture?

Liz Greene:
That's
one reaction to it. I think it is a very common reaction - and probably a
natural reaction. Saturn is much more individually graspable, whereas Pluto
feels so overwhelming that the initial response is to pull into Saturn and try
to defend oneself against Pluto. It is not "wrong" to do that. It is
an inevitable, natural thing to do. But it is not necessarily the best thing to
do. The aspect will work itself through anyway, but that certainly seems to be
what people are doing.

Nick
Campion: In
view of the respective planetary positions, do you think that there is a
particular Gemini-Sagittarius character to this Saturn-Pluto opposition?

Liz Greene:
I think
so, because it seems to be raising issues that have to do with morality, as
well as with knowledge versus intuitive realisations of some kind. It is
creating a lot of intellectual polarisation. There are ideas being battled out,
although the form that the Saturn-Pluto opposition takes can be very concrete
in lots of people's lives. With all the conflicts that seem to be arising on
both personal and collective levels, it is ideologies, concepts, belief
systems, and bodies of knowledge that are at stake, even behind whatever wars
are being fought.

Nick
Campion: Is
there one particular example at the moment of an ideological clash that you'd
point to?

Liz Greene:
Well,
how about Northern Ireland? That's been going on for a very long time, and I
don't think that it's unique to Saturn-Pluto, but it may enter a new phase now.

Nick
Campion: The
Sun in the chart for the creation of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and
Northern Ireland (December 7, 1922) is at 14° Sagittarius.[2]

Liz Greene:
The Sun
and the Descendant are within five degrees of each other. The chart for
southern Ireland[3] and the
chart for the U.K., including Northern Ireland, are one day apart. They are
both getting Saturn-Pluto.

Nick
Campion: Yes,
often with a complete inability on either side to identify with the other's
point of view. Or even acknowledge there is a point of view. What archetype do
you think Pluto corresponds to? Is it slightly artificial to say, "This
planet is this archetype and that planet is that archetype," as if they
existed in little boxes?

Liz Greene:
Yes,
it's artificial.

Nick
Campion: You
spoke about Pluto at one point as Lucifer, the dark angel who brings the night,
and you spoke about Pluto somewhere else as feminine and then also as the
archetype of immortality and the endless cycle of death and rebirth.[4]

Liz Greene:
I don't
think you can say, "Here's this planet, here's this archetype, they
match," because that's trying to squash two different symbolic systems
together. They will never fit properly. It is probably better to see planetary
symbols as having family relations with a whole range of images, all of which
combine in different ways. One of the Plutonian archetypes is certainly
Lucifer. One of them is the Fates. One is Goethe's Mephistopheles, and another
is Kali. There is a whole range of mythic images that can help us to get some
sense of the Pluto principle. It is almost impossible to articulate it, except
in poetic metaphors. There is an intelligent life in substance itself, which
seems to be associated with the life force in living things. It is nature
itself, or the life force in nature, that will survive. And in order to
survive, of necessity, it must go through permutations, changes, death
processes that break down forms when they have reached their sell-by date and
then generate new forms. We experience Pluto as something destructive, so we
then look at Mephistopheles. Or we experience it as nourishing, so we look at
the Great Mother. Or we experience it as fate, so we get the image of the
Moirae, the Greek Fates. Because of the various ways we experience it, we need
several different images.

Nick
Campion: Pluto
was discovered in 1930, and astrologers often talk about the connection between
fascism and the eruption into consciousness of the Plutonian archetype. It's
such a strong correlation that it's difficult to ignore. But do you think that,
since that point, the Pluto archetype has been stronger?

Liz Greene:
I don't
think it has gotten stronger. What has happened is that we are more aware of
it, as something operating both in society and in nature, than we were before.
But I don't think it is stronger. And although it is difficult to ignore the
rise of fascism and the discovery of nuclear power, I think we need to be
careful, because dictators, genocide, massive collective invasions, upheavals,
and deaths have occurred for as long as we have. The difference is that there
is now an awareness of the Pluto archetype as something which we have named. We
have become aware that it is something operating in the world, and this
awareness may give us more room to use or abuse it in a conscious way. That
doesn't necessarily make it stronger. It just means that we start taking it on
board, rather than enacting it in a blind and oblivious way.

Nick
Campion: In
terms of the enactment of things, I was reading The Horoscope in Manifestation.[5]
At one point, you say to one of the people in the seminar: "You are in the
play," and this person replies: "What, I'm in the play?" and you
say: "Yes, you are, enacting Jupiter." So, how do you expect people
to enact Pluto? How would you begin to approach somebody who came to you with
an incredibly strong Plutonian problem?

Liz Greene:
I would
first want to hear, and talk about, what they are feeling and experiencing with
that problem. The outer planets can feel so overwhelming that it is easy for
the person to lose their boundaries completely. That's what people go through
under or during the course of Pluto transits. Anything that can help the person
to get perspective on what they are experiencing helps immediately. Whether the
feeling of being overpowered is internal or external, it is very important for
someone to be able to say, "I am feeling desperate. I feel as if
everything around me is dying." It's important to try to find a ground
where there is an individual rather than just an overwhelming tide. So I would
always start with how the person is feeling, before I start talking about what
the planet might mean. What sometimes happens is that people disconnect from
what they are feeling because they get very scared. I have noticed that, for
some people, when they come under Pluto strongly, the sense of being
overwhelmed is so scary - especially if there is a fragile ego - that they
disconnect from it. And then they start behaving like Pluto. They are taken
over by whatever is bubbling up.

Nick
Campion: So,
behaving like Pluto would mean what? Obsessive?

Liz Greene:
Obsessive.

Nick
Campion: Confrontational?

Liz Greene:
Not
necessarily confrontational. Pluto can be very circumspect although still locked
in an attitude of "This is life or death, and I have to win or I will be
destroyed." That is what makes people behave very badly sometimes. They
get into power battles and they start manipulating, or they set themselves up
in some way whereby they are victimised by something very powerful. Pluto isn't
necessarily confrontational. It is locked into a pattern of nature itself and
is a force which will either grind over everything or become the victim of
everything.

Nick
Campion: Putting
oneself in a victim position in relation to authority sounds like the classic
Sun-Pluto combination.

Liz Greene:
It is
certainly one of the classic manifestations. Do you mean natally, or in
transit?

Nick
Campion: Natally.
But would you draw a distinction between natal and transiting aspects in that
way?

Liz Greene:
Yes, I
would, because if it is natal, it is an ongoing process. If it is a transit
without a natal aspect, it's an experience that a person will go through, but
it may not be one that they need to build their lives on. But if it is there
natally, then it is necessary to get some idea of what dimension of life is
essential to take on board and live with. You have got to make some kind of
relationship with it.

Nick
Campion: If
somebody has the Sun-Pluto natally, they may well incorporate it into their
state of being, so when a transit of Pluto occurs, they might feel it to be far
less profound, perhaps, than someone who has the same transit but without the
natal position.

Liz Greene:
Well,
maybe not "far less profound," but maybe far more familiar. The
individual might say, "Yes, I know this one, it is just that the volume
has been cranked up a bit." Whereas if there is no natal aspect, it's more
like: "What is this?" It helps a lot if you have Pluto links with
your Ascendant, Sun, Moon, Mercury, or have the planet angular when you come
under a Pluto transit, because there is already a sense of the Plutonian
dimension of life. It requires humans to accept something at work in life
greater than themselves. You can't manage Pluto without that acceptance. If it
is already there, then navigating the kinds of things that arise under the
transit is easier if you know the name of the animal. It can be freak-out time
if you don't know the name of it.

Nick
Campion: So,
obviously something perfectly useful that people gain from going to astrologers
is that they learn the name of the animal they're dealing with. The astrologer
will give them a label, and they can then objectify the label or somehow give
it a presence, a personality, which they can relate to.

Liz Greene:
Yes, it
is the same process by which techniques like active imagination or dream work
operate. If you can give whatever you are experiencing a container through a
symbol, like an astrological symbol, or a painting or a drawing or a piece of
music, you have created distance between it and yourself. You may not objectify
it in the sense that you now know what it is, but it gives you a sense that you
can make a relationship with it rather than being swallowed up by it - and then
you can bring consciousness to bear on it.

Nick
Campion: What
distinction would you draw between Moon-Pluto links and Sun-Pluto? Is
Moon-Pluto going to have more to do with the family?

Liz Greene:
I think
so. Moon-Pluto operates much more through the physical and psychological
inheritance. One experiences the Plutonian dimension of life viscerally, either
in the body or through the feelings or through relationship. It operates at a
gut level, whereas Sun-Pluto tends to translate more into something that
affects, or is part of, one's journey, one's destiny, one's purpose and
direction.

Nick
Campion: In
The Horoscope in Manifestation, you said to a member of the audience with Pluto
square Moon, "You are carrying complexes related to the family
inheritance, the wounded world, the suffering of others, and the sense of
obligations which such suffering invokes."[6]
That sounds more past-related, as opposed to Sun-Pluto, which is more
future-related.

Liz Greene:
Yes.
Moon-Pluto carries a big wardrobe with it. Family objects are in the attic and
basement.

Nick
Campion: Skeletons
in cupboards?

Liz Greene:
It's
skeletons in cupboards. The child born with Moon-Pluto knows that life is very
dangerous. Nothing is permanent, everything could be destroyed. There is no
real sense of being able to relax and have a nice safe time, because there is
an inbuilt understanding or inbuilt instinctive awareness of the cyclical
nature of life and the mortality of everything - the inevitability of change. It
is that sense of constant danger that could be turned into an extraordinary
attribute. It also brings with it a very understandable tendency to depression,
because you can't just go and have a party. You can, but at some point when the
clock strikes midnight, you realise that all these people are one day going to
get old, and they will get sick, and they are going to die, and what is the
point? What are we here for? It brings up all these deep questions and
anxieties.

Nick
Campion: One
point which you developed very strongly in your early writings is the idea that
a planetary combination which might have a possible negative consequence also
contains the means by which you can do something about it. So, if Moon-Pluto
brings a natural tendency to depression, what would be a natural way for
somebody to turn that into an upward path, or bring it back to the light, or
however you want to put it - and get the smile back on their face?

Liz Greene:
I think
it may involve not trying so terribly hard to get the smile back. Part of the
problem is that we perceive states of depression and mourning as pathological
conditions that should be cured. Half of America is medicated in order to avoid
depression. Depression or melancholy has a long tradition of being the only
state in which you can contact the soul. If you go around with a perpetual
smile, that level of life cannot make itself known in a helpful or creative
way. The cyclical tendency to depression with Moon-Pluto means, first of all,
understanding depression differently - perhaps calling it melancholy instead -
to go down into the depths in order to return to the light. All the deeper
questions come up. Because everything dies in Pluto's world, there is a
constant grieving for what passes. It is like losing a human being that you are
close to, and unless you go through the mourning process, something gets very
blocked up and sick. It can actually be helpful to work with depression as
something useful and creative, rather than trying to place the smile back on. I
think the smile begins to form with a sense of irony. It is a different kind of
smile. Also, it can lead to the kind of humour that deals with an appreciation
of the absurd.

Nick
Campion: I
remember once, a long time ago, there was an article in the Astrological
Association newsletter, Transit, in which Eve Jackson looked at the horoscopes
of the Monty Python team and the prevalence of Pluto.[7]
One thinks of images like the sad clown with the tears running down his face.

Liz Greene:
Pluto
has its own form of smile. It is a bad mistake to think that smiles should
always be Steinway smiles, with "have a nice day" pasted onto them.
Getting something regenerating and rewarding out of Pluto really means treating
the god with respect and not trying to turn him into a bundle of laughs.

Nick
Campion: One
image that occurred to me while you were talking is the sight one encounters in
Mediterranean countries, of dark Catholic churches with old ladies in black,
lighting candles, probably for lost members of their family. That's their form
of working with Pluto and loss.

Liz Greene:
Yes. It
may be appropriate for those cultures. It may not necessarily work in Britain.
Also, some cultures are much less frightened of venting grief and the rage that
goes with grief, because we quite appropriately should be enraged when things
die. Again, if you look at Faust, Goethe had the Sun square a rising Pluto in
Scorpio. At one point Mephistopheles says, "What does it matter if this
woman dies?" and Faust comes out with an outraged declaration that the
death of a single young woman like this is a terrible tragedy. We should
experience that reaction in the face of Pluto. It is appropriate because then
we clean out the rage and grief. In some cultures, they do this more easily.

Nick
Campion is Past President of the Astrological Association of Great Britain. He
has been a student of astrology since the early 1970s and has taught the
subject since 1980 - for London's Camden Institute, the Faculty of Astrological
Studies, and most recently, for Kepler College. He is also currently a graduate
student in the Study of Religions Department at Bath Spa University College,
England. Nick is the winner of the 1992 Marc Edmund Jones Award, the 1994 Prix
Georges Antares, and the 1999 Spica Award for Professional Excellence. His
books include Mundane Astrology and The Book of World Horoscopes. Information
about these books is available on his Web site: www.nickcampion.com

As one of the largest astrology portals WWW.ASTRO.COM offers a lot of free features on the subject. With high-quality horoscope interpretations by the world's leading astrologers Liz Greene, Robert Hand and other authors, many free horoscopes and extensive information on astrology for beginners and professionals, www.astro.com is the first address for astrology on the web.