"So... the Illusive Man was right after all?" Is that actually a dialogue choice? I could've sworn it was automatic in response to Control. I swear I always hear it even though I would never make Shepard say that.

Also remember, pure Renegade is willing to sacrifice resolve in order to get the job done... ironically the only way out of the indoctrination attempt is to keep your resolve. There is times when I agree with Renegade, but then again the Human resolve is a mix anyways.

My question is, how do we know Renegade isn't just as indoctrinated? Psychology today would tell you, that your will is hard-coded by your experiences in life as well as other factors. A Renegade, Colonist, war hero, should have an identical will to a Paragon, Colonist, war hero. Both have experienced the same things, they have the same genetics, same knowledge, etc. Renegades are loners, all loners have emotions and desires for relationships all the same because they are the same species with the same brains, the difference is that they bottle it up. "Yeah I saw a kid get murdered before my eyes, but I'm perfectly fine!" SUUUUUUUUURRRRRREEEE you are Shepard. So Renegade Shepard, can you tell me why your dreams are identical to Paragon Shepard's? Or why you see oily shadows all the same, and TIM controls you all the same? -_-

_________________Life is chaos itself. Organisms appear and evolve as a mere byproduct of thermodynamics.

Welcome to a universe made up of many universes, enter prisoner 092993 of a tiny blue dot.

Remember, TIM isn't actually controlling you because it's not real. However Shepard in this mind world is his/her own consciousness, TIM controlling Shepard shows how much control the Reapers have gained over Shepard's mind. Yet both Paragon and Renegade exhibit an identical amount of control lost. Meaning they are just as indoctrinated, the best explanation is that Renegade Shep puts his personal feelings aside whereas Paragon is not afraid to share what's troubling him/her.

_________________Life is chaos itself. Organisms appear and evolve as a mere byproduct of thermodynamics.

Welcome to a universe made up of many universes, enter prisoner 092993 of a tiny blue dot.

Renegade Shepard has the same dreams, but he doesn't let it affect him.

Paragon Shepard worries about the losses, and as such, is easier to manipulate into not picking destroy.

Paragon Shepard is gullible, believes in the 'solutions'...

"... b-but the Reapers will obey me?"

"... and there will be peace?"

_________________"A good leader is someone who values the life of his men over the success of the mission, but understands that sometimes the cost of failing a mission is higher than the cost of losing those men." - Anderson

Nightmares are not just scary dreams, it's something bothering you even if you are unaware of it. The fact that Shepard is having those nightmares means that it is something bothering Shepard, that's how nightmares work. If you have nightmares what is in them is a problem you have, like I said it's not just some scary dream and brushing it off does not leave you unaffected, bottling emotions never does.

Furthermore as I said, TIM controls Shepard with indoctrination in this mind world all the same, this proves the indoctrination is the same.

Things like "So... the Illusive Man was right after all?" is said regardless of Renegade or Paragon, Shepard says it automatically in response to Control.

Notice, how he is literally trying to avoid Refuse. in fact, if you pay attention it's like he is trying to divert you from Refuse with Destroy... then once you say there must be another way, he jumps to the next step of his scam and pushes Control, from there he goes on to push Synthesis. So all evidence suggests the priority for the Reapers from least wanted, to most wanted: Refuse, Destroy, Control, Synthesis. Refuse is the one they definitely do not want, and Synthesis is the best they can hope for.

Note: Can someone show me a video of these "... b-but the Reapers will obey me?""... and there will be peace?"dialogues? First off, they don't mean Shepard agrees, Paragon is more idealistic so Shepard is addressing the concept. For example, Shepard asks if there will be peace not because he is going to pick it, but to make it clear that peace is not enough to justify the choice. Idealistically, it's wrong EVEN IF there is peace. Assuming a Paragon alone even says them, I believe bluntly turning down the Catalyst's options is Paragon because it's on moral grounds.

Last edited by IronicParticle on Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:38 pm; edited 1 time in total

_________________Life is chaos itself. Organisms appear and evolve as a mere byproduct of thermodynamics.

Welcome to a universe made up of many universes, enter prisoner 092993 of a tiny blue dot.

"Paragon Shepard is gullible, believes in the 'solutions'.." So does renegade Shepard, Shepard believes everything happening is real. Shepard followed the horrible beam run plan, and he actually fought to help with the Crucible plan, etc regardless of Paragon or Renegade. Sorry to say but Bioware is unbiased about Renegade and Paragon, in reality considering their Liberal nature they'd be morally inclined... not pragmatic.

_________________Life is chaos itself. Organisms appear and evolve as a mere byproduct of thermodynamics.

Welcome to a universe made up of many universes, enter prisoner 092993 of a tiny blue dot.

I think Renegade is more focused on the goal (of destroying the Reapers), but misses the part about his allies/friends helping him out.He's stronger inside, but frayed from only depending on himself and his goals.

I think Paragon is more focused on his relationships with allies/friends, but misses the part about the main goal of destroying the Reapers.He's weaker inside (more of a softie), but can get strength from the relationships he made with others.

Regardless, BOTH are SHEPARD. Paragon can focus on destroying the Reapers, if you so wish. Renegade can still have very close relationships with others.

They're just different flavors to the roleplay. A Paragon is more likely to talk down the enemy (in IT, it would be revealing the deception once Shepard tries hard enough), but a Renegade is more likely to shoot first and ask questions later (in IT, it would be going 'screw if this is an illusion, I know what I came here for!' and shooting the tubes!).

Fuck the consequencesvsWe'll stop you together

Both are paths to victory. A Paragon just has to try a bit hard to steel against deception in the ME3 ending. Well so what? A Renegade also had a bit of 'lore consequence' that didn't favor them in ME1-ME2. Sometimes there are 'more right' choices.

IronicParticle wrote:"Paragon Shepard is gullible, believes in the 'solutions'.." So does renegade Shepard, Shepard believes everything happening is real. Shepard followed the horrible beam run plan, and he actually fought to help with the Crucible plan, etc regardless of Paragon or Renegade. Sorry to say but Bioware is unbiased about Renegade and Paragon, in reality considering their Liberal nature they'd be morally inclined... not pragmatic.

You guys keep misinterpreting what I'm saying. I guess I'll have to explain it better.

1. I'm not saying renegade Shepard doesn't believe in the illusion, nothing like that at all, I say he doesn't believe in the solutions. He dislikes them.

2. I'm not saying Bioware is biased towards renegade or paragon. I'm saying paragon runs a higher risk of getting indoctrinated, because it's more empathic, it's about keeping as many people alive as possible. Which is exactly how the Reapers are manipulating you in the end.

3. As far as the dreams go, I don't believe Shepard is dreaming about fallen comrades because the loss is subconsciously bothering him. Shepard has never let that get in the way of things. I believe the dreams are part of the indoctrination, the Reapers are trying to make you feel sorry for all the people you killed or couldn't save. You hear the voices of the fallen, you are chasing this child who, no matter how you try to help him, always burns right in front of you.

All of this is preparing you for the moment where they are trying to turn you away from wanting to destroy the Reapers by telling you that it will kill your friends too. All this 'making Shepard feel bad about dead people' is meant to break his spirit and lull him into a 'more peaceful solution'.

Shepard's subconsciousness comes into play at the end of the third dream. His subconsciousness doesn't trust the continuous appearance of the child and is showing him that if he keeps trying to save him, or side with him, he will burn. It is the subconsciousness trying to warn him within the indoctrination itself.

That's the way I see it.

Hope that clears everything up.

_________________"A good leader is someone who values the life of his men over the success of the mission, but understands that sometimes the cost of failing a mission is higher than the cost of losing those men." - Anderson

1. But the point is neither does Paragon, not unless he picks them. A renegade can pick Control and Synthesis, so there you go. The Paragon talks like that to ensure his choice is informed, even after hearing what he does, the player decides to pick either Destroy or Refuse because peace and controlling the Reapers does not justify those 2 choices.

2.No they manipulate you based on your personality, for a Paragon they'd twist morality, for a Renegade all they have to do is make the hot-headed Renegade charge right into their choices without thinking. Since this is a mind game, rational thought is going to be a great weapon, which the Paragon is a thinker. In reality it's proven to balance itself out because TIM controls Shepard all the same, you keep focusing on the irrelevant attitude of Shepard, what you need to focus on are the things that are actually relevant to succumbing to indoctrination. TIM controlling Shepard, is the Reapers controlling Shepard, at least his mind. Regardless of Renegade or Paragon that scene is identical in terms of Shepard struggling.

3.Actually you are right on the money, it IS something that does bother Shepard but Shepard is normally strong enough to get over it for the most part. The Reapers wouldn't be using such things to their advantage if it didn't effect Shepard at all. The Reapers are just pulling them from his subconscious and forcing them into his dreams, and whispering into the back of his mind things to refute whatever response he has made up to deal with it in the first place. That's what I'd assume anyways, since all they really do is inject suggestions into your mind.

4.Actually, if you watched the video they are clearly using Destroy to lead you away from Refuse. The moment Renegade Shepard says he will destroy them without using the Crucible(note: this proves Refuse is a destroy ending) Catalyst says it's impossible and then tries to tell you Destroy is the only way to destroy them. Then when Renegade Shepard said there must be another way, Catalyst jumps to push Control and then Synthesis.

Pay attention, the Catalyst actually promotes you to pick Destroy and it's plain as day! You can see it when he tells you the only way to destroy them is Destroy. He is literally saying that if Shepard wants to destroy them, he MUST pick Destroy, and then to get Shepard to accept it as true he goes to push his more prefered options. He directly acknowledge just before this, that Shepard was thinking about destroying them. Then RIGHT AFTER acknowledging that he mentions Destroy and if you try to go with Refuse he deters you away from it WITH Destroy. This is the facts.

It's all about your resolve, not necessarily about destroying the Reapers. In a crazy world where Shepard was actually a synthesis supporter since ME1, Shepard could only break out of indoctrination by picking Synthesis. Of course Synthesis isn't Shepard's resolve, right? His resolve is to destroy the Reapers without giving up his humanity.

As for the last dream, the child is the Reapers, so your subconscious is not warning you against saving lives it's warning you against saving the Reapers.

_________________Life is chaos itself. Organisms appear and evolve as a mere byproduct of thermodynamics.

Welcome to a universe made up of many universes, enter prisoner 092993 of a tiny blue dot.

IronicParticle wrote:4.Actually, if you watched the video they are clearly using Destroy to lead you away from Refuse. The moment Renegade Shepard says he will destroy them without using the Crucible(note: this proves Refuse is a destroy ending) Catalyst says it's impossible and then tries to tell you Destroy is the only way to destroy them. Then when Renegade Shepard said there must be another way, Catalyst jumps to push Control and then Synthesis.

Could you link me to this?

I must have been checking out like 16 different refuse videos, but I absolutely can't find what you're talking about.

_________________"A good leader is someone who values the life of his men over the success of the mission, but understands that sometimes the cost of failing a mission is higher than the cost of losing those men." - Anderson

IronicParticle wrote:4.Actually, if you watched the video they are clearly using Destroy to lead you away from Refuse. The moment Renegade Shepard says he will destroy them without using the Crucible(note: this proves Refuse is a destroy ending) Catalyst says it's impossible and then tries to tell you Destroy is the only way to destroy them. Then when Renegade Shepard said there must be another way, Catalyst jumps to push Control and then Synthesis.

Could you link me to this?

I must have been checking out like 16 different refuse videos, but I absolutely can't find what you're talking about.

IronicParticle wrote:4.Actually, if you watched the video they are clearly using Destroy to lead you away from Refuse. The moment Renegade Shepard says he will destroy them without using the Crucible(note: this proves Refuse is a destroy ending) Catalyst says it's impossible and then tries to tell you Destroy is the only way to destroy them. Then when Renegade Shepard said there must be another way, Catalyst jumps to push Control and then Synthesis.

Could you link me to this?

I must have been checking out like 16 different refuse videos, but I absolutely can't find what you're talking about.

Edit: I actually can only encourage you to watch that video. It's not the somewhat cheesy Refuse through shooting the brat, but dialogue Refuse a lot of people seem not to have seen.

Note that in this version the Guardian does NOT say "I know that you have thought about destroying us"! I will check if that line was changed after the EC. Okay, here is the original ending. And the extended cut.

I'll compare the Destroy dialogue in the OC and the EC starting from "The Crucible changed me, created new possibilites. But I can't make them happen".I will color-code some interesting aspects. Shepard is confrontational towards the GuardianThe Guardian wants Shepard to chooseThe Guardian threatens ShepardThe Guardian tries to sway Shepard away from certain choices

OC:

Guardian: "I know you've thought about destroying us."--Flash Forward--G: "You can whipe out all synthetic life, if you want. Including the Geth.Even you are partly synthetic."Shepard: "But the Reapers will be destroyed?"G: "Yes, but the peace won't last. Soon your children will create synthetics and then the chaos will come back."S: "Maybe..."--Jump to Control--

EC:

G: "If there is to be a new solution, you must act. It is now in your power to destroy us."--Flash Forward--G: "But be warned, others will be destroyed as well. The Crucible will not discriminate. All synthetics will be targeted.Even you are partly synthetic."

S (Paragon): "But the Reaper will be destroyed?"G: "Yes, but the peace won't last. Soon your children will create synthetics and then the chaos will come back."S: "There has to be another way."G: "There is."--Jump to Control--

S (Renegade): "I made it this far... we'll destroy you without setting it off."G: "Impossible (slightly pissed in my view). You are vastly outnumbered. You have sacrificed many of your resources to reach this point. If you do not use the Crucible the Reapers won't be stopped and the cycle continues."S: "I don't believe you." (THE FUCK!!!!)G: "Your belief is not required."S: "There has to be another way."G: "There is."--Jump to Control--

Now, let's skip the entire Control/Synthesis nonsense and jump to the point right after Synthesis has been presented to you.

G: "Your time is at an end. You must decide." (something similar is in the OC, but differently worded)S (Renegade obviously): "No! I'm gonna end this war on my terms!"G: "Then you will die knowing that you failed saving everything you fought for."S (Renegade obviously): "I fight for freedom. Mine and everyone's. I fight for the right to choose our own fate. And if I die, I'll die knowing that I did everything I could to stop you and I'll die free."G: "SO BE IT. The cycle continues."--Cutscenes--

As I said in the OP, I had mixed feelings about Refuse, due to the rather tragic way it ends (if literal) and the general flak it gets from literalists (but who cares about them anyways) and a huge chunk of ITers as well. However, revising the dialogues and taking into account the difference between OC and EC, the bias towards Destroy does not seem that great anymore.Most of the arguments were based on Shepard's and the Guardian's dialogue, and they were true for the OC. In the EC, Destroy is not that negatively depicted by the Guardian. Refuse wins the "piss-off-the-Guardian" contest by a long shot.Of course there are still external things, such as the Breath Scene speaking for Destroy and I am by no means trying to sway people away from Destroy, but considering the dialogue I have just examined I have come to a personal conclusion:

Most handwave Refuse for the wrong reasons:

1. They have still in mind the OC, where Destroy clearly was depicted as the Guardian's least favourite choice (the dialogue of the Guardian was more aggressive, too).2. They have not seen/experienced Refuse via dialogue, or only the last speech. Yet, the entire end-dialogue, where you have always to pick Renegade is important.3. Considering points 1 and 2, people tend to the -- in my eyes false -- impression that Refuse is giving up, being mentally broken or other interpretations I have heard so far.

Please reconsider your attitude when talking about Refuse after you have read the dialogue and seen the videos.

Last edited by Restrider on Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:47 am; edited 1 time in total

I KNOW there's the breath scene only in Destroy, but, really, the points made here are very valid. It's actually NOT EASY to get the Refuse dialogue all the way through the options to get the epic Shepard speech. I really do like Refuse, but I do tend towards Destroy in general, because it was in the OC, and because it has the breath.

Still, I -do- agree with the contention that 'if a breath scene was included with Refuse it would completely give away the IT reveal that we are expecting'. Seriously, if it had been included, do any of you really, truly think that there would be any doubt as to the non-literalness of the endings? It would beyond any shadow of doubt prove that the end was in Shepard's mind, as there could be no contention on why Shepard awoke in the rubble.

Refuse is better from a moralistic standpoint. As in, if you want to stick not just 'to your guns', but instead to every virtue you, as the player, want to hold.

But it's not better in this *situation*.

It's the same as going to the Reaper, "I reject you entirely. I don't know what I'll do now, but at least I fought you until here. That was enough."

To that, the Reaper (rightfully) goes.. "So?"

And you die.

Shepard doesn't just go to Sovereign and say "We fought until now, but since you're interfaced with the Citadel and your fleet is here, I don't see any option to take."

No. He uses the hacked Citadel (A REAPER DEVICE) to stop the Arrival of the Reapers. He then shoots the Sovereign-possessed Saren body, interrupting Sovvy's processes enough for the fleets to focus fire on him.

Hmmm... that sounds familiar... maybe the same will happen to Harbinger, but on a larger scale?

See, the Crucible itself may be a trap. Maybe it's a hidden plan by the Leviathans, or Reapers, or whatever.

In the end, that doesn't matter. The Citadel is a trap too, but it's been used to stop the Reapers.

Destroy is not IDEAL. In a perfect world, we could just stand 100% by our ideals and our enemies will just stand down (Refuse). Or we can just say what we want and our enemies will by under our heels (Control). Or we'll all agree and be the same (Synthesis).

But that's not the universe.

"By the spirits Aria - how did you know you could do it?""I didn't."

Last edited by SwobyJ on Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:29 am; edited 3 times in total

IMO refuse is a great ending and fitting to the Mass Effect universe. It just isn't *victory*.

Defeating the Reapers isn't ONLY a matter of refusing them. You also have to back up your words with actions. Yes, this means using any means possible, when it eventually comes to that. (Again, *when it eventually comes to that*, not as a crutch, like Controllers)

"It's the same as going to the Reaper, "I reject you entirely. I don't know what I'll do now, but at least I fought you until here. That was enough."

Here's how your entire argument falls apart:

Your analogy is wrong in quite a few ways. First, Sovereign wasn't holding anyone hostage. The only sacrifice that happens is between some humans and the council, which had nothing to do with your ability to stop Sovereign. A sacrifice was truly necessary, there was no equivalent to Control and Synthesis.

Second, no it's like going to the Reapers "I reject your terms, I will try to find out another way now. If I die trying, then at least I tried."

The people saying it's quitting need to argue with Shepard: "No! I'm gonna end this war on my terms!" - Commander Shepard

Shepard has deemed the options as off limits:

"Not if we lose our humanity in the process! I'm out there fighting to stop crap like this!" - Commander Shepard

"I don't think so. I'm gonna stop the Reapers, but I won't sacrifice the soul of our species to do it." - Commander Shepard

Even if you disagree, be willing to at least acknowledge that the idea that Refuse is different than you say, has very compelling evidence.

_________________Life is chaos itself. Organisms appear and evolve as a mere byproduct of thermodynamics.

Welcome to a universe made up of many universes, enter prisoner 092993 of a tiny blue dot.

SwobyJ wrote:IMO refuse is a great ending and fitting to the Mass Effect universe. It just isn't *victory*.

Defeating the Reapers isn't ONLY a matter of refusing them. You also have to back up your words with actions. Yes, this means using any means possible, when it eventually comes to that. (Again, *when it eventually comes to that*, not as a crutch, like Controllers)

"Not if we lose our humanity in the process! I'm out there fighting to stop crap like this!" - Commander Shepard

"I don't think so. I'm gonna stop the Reapers, but I won't sacrifice the soul of our species to do it." - Commander Shepard

Nope.jpg

It's not about defeating the Reapers, it's about saving our humanity. We are stopping the Reapers to save our Humanity, not the other way around. If you sacrifice what's important you are as bad as the Reapers, meaning you will be morally obligated to destroy yourself afterwards, along with the whole galaxy anyways. Kinda seems a bit redundant, doesn't it?

You guys keep going on about how ideals don't save the day, but that's nonsense... it's not about saving the galaxy, it's about what makes that galaxy and life important. you have it swapped around, ideals are why you do what you do, not the other way around.

If Destroy was necessary, it wouldn't be a violation of one's Humanity... however there is 3 other choices, and 1 of them even has 2 ways it can be activated.

_________________Life is chaos itself. Organisms appear and evolve as a mere byproduct of thermodynamics.

Welcome to a universe made up of many universes, enter prisoner 092993 of a tiny blue dot.

Let's -- for the sake of it -- ignore that Refuse wasn't in the OC and the breath scene.

Can someone explain to me the negativity Refuse (aka refusing all other choices) causes when talking to the Guardian?

In a literal interpretation, you can do that by saying that the Guardian genuinely wants to find a better solution to its problem and that you jeopardize it by refusing to choose anything. But even in the literal POV it does not explain how Destroy is better than Refuse (destruction of the Reapers and no sustainable solution for the cycle vs. resorting to the MO of hundreds of cycles) in the Guardian's POV.

It is similar with an IT interpretation. I know the concept of Refuse being "mentally broken", but as I pointed out in the longer post, I don't think that the dialogue nor the videos suggest that.

Thinking about Refuse (in any interpretation) usually leaves me with a lot of unanswered questions.

I truly don't get how you think that choosing to Destroy the Reapers at the (at least potential) cost of those who signed up for risk of direct death is sacrificing the soul of humanity.

EDIT: "We did everything we could. We built the Crucible, but it didn't work. We fought as a united galaxy, but it wasn't enough. I only hope the information in this capsule (LIKE CRUCIBLE BLUEPRINTS) is enough to help you before its too late." -Liara

SwobyJ wrote:God, this is going around in circles. Tuesday, and maybe we'll see.

I truly don't get how you think that choosing to Destroy the Reapers at the (at least potential) cost of those who signed up for risk of direct death is sacrificing the soul of humanity.

EDIT: "We did everything we could. We built the Crucible, but it didn't work. We fought as a united galaxy, but it wasn't enough. I only hope the information in this capsule (LIKE CRUCIBLE BLUEPRINTS) is enough to help you before its too late." -Liara

"Didn't work" = Didn't use it..

No, nobody signed up for their entire species to have no future. They individually are willing to die, but not to give up their children's hope. Nor did the organics consent to you making such a sacrifice on their behalf. It's backstabbing everyone, pointlessly. Refuse is consensual, because people are there purely because they want to be... see in Refuse, the Geth could've ran away if they wanted, or anyone else for that matter. But you don't give that option in Destroy.

Literally, the Reapers dragged Shepard to earth, and now that you are talking with all Reapers you are going to sacrifice their future, the very reason they are willing to die the first place. If you do that, you cancel out the justification for them dying.

Nor did you answer Restrider's question, why does the Catalyst treat Refuse worse than Destroy?

You are right we are going in circles, because you ignore this fact, you think Destroy is consensual when it isn't.

Edit: That was the Reaper suggestions FYI, it just pushes the Catalyst's attitude even further. He prefers Destroy over Refuse, and the Reapers fill Shepard's mind with good images in Destroy and bad images in Refuse. All in all, they are trying their hardest it seems to keep you from picking Refuse.

_________________Life is chaos itself. Organisms appear and evolve as a mere byproduct of thermodynamics.

Welcome to a universe made up of many universes, enter prisoner 092993 of a tiny blue dot.

Holy crap, he treats Refuse as worse because Shepard is useless to him.

I didn't say Destroy was ideal, to be clear.

What I AM saying is that Destroy has the chance to continue the story. It keeps Shepard as Shepard (DON'T TOUCH THIS, stop), but has his mind still open to possible future manipulation (another "Struggle if you wish, your mind will be mine").

As far as I'm concerned (SO FAR), Refuse is Shepard bleeding out in London rubble. No breath to keep fighting, but a resignation that he did all he could, and now he can't do anything anymore.