Gay Marriage Thread 2: Now with 50% More Gay

Hi everyone, this is a thread to share your views about homosexual marriage and anything you feel is relevant to homosexual marriage. There use to be another thread for it but it was locked but don't worry it was not locked for being against the rules nor was it locked because posters raged at each other. Thus leading us to this new second thread. I was thinking of either Gay Marriage Thread 2: Now with 50% More Gay, Gay Marriage Thread 2.0: Now With Lesbians, Gay Marriage the Sequel, Gay Marriage Part Deux: No Homo or Gay Marriage Rises Returns.

This topic can kind of be a bit of a sensitive one, and one thats prone to attracting strong opinions, so I sincerely and kindly appeal that posters treat each other as nicely as you can. Honestly who needs the stress of petty arguments or slinging insults at each other. If you think someone is being offensive, address them, ignore them, but please do not try and start trouble with them. If someone is being directly offensive towards you then simply follow the CV rules and flag them but it usually takes two to argue so always be aware of your own actions and accountability as far as personal attacks. In that mindset remember that its okay to disagree with people, question people because its possible to do both those things with respect, sincerity and goodwill. Also remember that some posters just want to post their opinions and not get engaged in some massive discussion. Also remember that if you don't want to engage in a massive discussion with someone it probably doesn't pay to quote them or refer to them and take issue with their opinions, and also that some posters will naturally be curious about your opinions or stance on certain things and may try to discuss them with you. Patience and sincerity goes a long way with interacting with your fellow CVer so exercising both when you can just creates a healthier climate for candid and safe discussion.

Personally I have pretty strong opinions regarding homosexual marriage ask me a question if you wish. The main reason I made this thread was because so many great conversations were being had in the prior thread. I'll edit in something more substantial later into OP, right now I wish to get back into conversation with those I was conversing with.

Remember to try and be nice with each other, and people don't really tend to change their opinions by you forcing yours onto them. Best way to get your point across will typically be with patience and kindness and even if you don't change the mind of the person you are disagreeing with, staying focused on the reasoning behind your views will usually sway any observing you express yourself and if you really feel strongly about your views then makes sense that you want to portray yourself as the person who doesn't resort to negativity, personal attacks or so on. CV has a great community so would be great of this thread proved as an example of posters talking about a hot button issue without descending into anarchy.

Also if you wish to show support for homosexuals, homosexuality and avoid the pitfalls that can arise in the open discussion of threads such as these (disagreements, arguments, tension, flirting... wait what? Oh harsh opinions, unfair judgments or jokes and the like) please remember CV Off Topic also has a thread that I will link below this paragraph you might wish to use. Its a safer, friendlier thread that is intended for support. It has nice and friendly people in it too. Take care and be yourselves, because your all awesome no matter what bits and pieces you think look better than other bits and pieces.

Christianity or to be more specific the bible is over 2000 years old.Even the people who adhere to it still argue over whats right in it and whats wrong in it,even they cant make their minds up.And this is one case which is taken out of context in the bible and is used to excuse bigotry.The bible is sexist and racist as well and society overall has moved away from those ideas,so why should it be any different in regards to sexuality? it shouldn't that's the answer.The only thing believers have to go on based on this 2000 or so year old book is that they believe in it,they dont have one shred of evidence that will hold up to modern day thinking.

Lets face it if people didn't have the bible or other archaic out dated religious texts, people would of been able to get married regardless of sexuality long ago.

most things in the Bible don't need interpretations. Most interpretations are only needed for symbolic things. the bible is pretty straight forward and clear especially regarding morals.

short answer: the reader

Given different readers different cultures, different education levels, different ages, different family make ups, different countries, different laws, different upbringing thats a lot of subjectivity to be accounted for, do you not think? How would you personally account for variation with interpretation? If things are so straight forward why is there so much disagreement with interpretations? (I mean interpretation as in processing meaning, so the inherent process a person would have at reading - even straight forward and clear writings, rather than say aesthetic interpretation)

@mrdecepticonleader: Well thats the thing about the Bible really, its used so ambiguously by so many, and many of those people that use it do so to give the illusion that the Bible is still relevant today (as a guide for morality) and really for a long long time it was easy to hold that illusion. These days though its relatively easy to access plenty of ideas and results and education about neurology, biology, history, theology even if you don't get the paper qualifications that require thousands of dollars, (or the credibility or accountability that comes along with such qualifications) its still amazingly wonderful the access and exposure relatively poor people have to intellectual enlightenment and discovery. Just an open mind, exposure and some good old critical thinking allows for more open and healthier conversation. If people are being sincere about finding the truth things get fun pretty fast. Oh and thanks for the kind words.

I'm perfectly Okay with any type of marriage between consenting adults that are mentally capable of making their own decisions. I'm even cool with polygamy so long as everyone involved is a consenting adult whose doing it of their own free will. My reason for this is simple, who others marry is none of my or any other person's business aside from those actually getting married.

most things in the Bible don't need interpretations. Most interpretations are only needed for symbolic things. the bible is pretty straight forward and clear especially regarding morals.

short answer: the reader

Given different readers different cultures, different education levels, different ages, different family make ups, different countries, different laws, different upbringing thats a lot of subjectivity to be accounted for, do you not think? How would you personally account for variation with interpretation? If things are so straight forward why is there so much disagreement with interpretations? (I mean interpretation as in processing meaning, so the inherent process a person would have at reading - even straight forward and clear writings, rather than say aesthetic interpretation)

@mrdecepticonleader: Well thats the thing about the Bible really, its used so ambiguously by so many, and many of those people that use it do so to give the illusion that the Bible is still relevant today (as a guide for morality) and really for a long long time it was easy to hold that illusion. These days though its relatively easy to access plenty of ideas and results and education about neurology, biology, history, theology even if you don't get the paper qualifications that require thousands of dollars, (or the credibility or accountability that comes along with such qualifications) its still amazingly wonderful the access and exposure relatively poor people have to intellectual enlightenment and discovery. Just an open mind, exposure and some good old critical thinking allows for more open and healthier conversation. If people are being sincere about finding the truth things get fun pretty fast. Oh and thanks for the kind words.

No problem.

Religion is used as a way of controlling people.And the things you mentioned (biology history neurobiology etc) out date these religious texts by far and show how out dated they really are.

I'm perfectly Okay with any type of marriage between consenting adults that are mentally capable of making their own decisions. I'm even cool with polygamy so long as everyone involved is a consenting adult whose doing it of their own free will. My reason for this is simple, who others marry is none of my or any other person's business aside from those actually getting married.

What if you end up supporting those people or their children? Marriage between anyone shouldn't be entered into lightly, yet that seems to be what a lot of people do.

most things in the Bible don't need interpretations. Most interpretations are only needed for symbolic things. the bible is pretty straight forward and clear especially regarding morals.

short answer: the reader

Given different readers different cultures, different education levels, different ages, different family make ups, different countries, different laws, different upbringing thats a lot of subjectivity to be accounted for, do you not think? How would you personally account for variation with interpretation? If things are so straight forward why is there so much disagreement with interpretations? (I mean interpretation as in processing meaning, so the inherent process a person would have at reading - even straight forward and clear writings, rather than say aesthetic interpretation)

@mrdecepticonleader: Well thats the thing about the Bible really, its used so ambiguously by so many, and many of those people that use it do so to give the illusion that the Bible is still relevant today (as a guide for morality) and really for a long long time it was easy to hold that illusion. These days though its relatively easy to access plenty of ideas and results and education about neurology, biology, history, theology even if you don't get the paper qualifications that require thousands of dollars, (or the credibility or accountability that comes along with such qualifications) its still amazingly wonderful the access and exposure relatively poor people have to intellectual enlightenment and discovery. Just an open mind, exposure and some good old critical thinking allows for more open and healthier conversation. If people are being sincere about finding the truth things get fun pretty fast. Oh and thanks for the kind words.

No problem.

Religion is used as a way of controlling people.And the things you mentioned (biology history neurobiology etc) out date these religious texts by far and show how out dated they really are.

I'm perfectly Okay with any type of marriage between consenting adults that are mentally capable of making their own decisions. I'm even cool with polygamy so long as everyone involved is a consenting adult whose doing it of their own free will. My reason for this is simple, who others marry is none of my or any other person's business aside from those actually getting married.

@Xanni15: Why would I end up supporting them or their children? If you're talking about with tax money and welfare, that's going to keep happening regardless of the marital status of the parents. Also I know Marriage shouldn't be entered into lightly, you shouldn't even consider getting married unless you're actually planning on spending the rest of your life with someone. I know things don't always work out as intended by a life long commitment should always be the goal when you get married regardless of who you choose to marry.

@SC: Given different readers different cultures, different education levels, different ages, different family make ups, different countries, different laws, different upbringing thats a lot of subjectivity to be accounted for, do you not think?

No i don't think that way. I don't think the Bible is complicated.

If things are so straight forward why is there so much disagreement with interpretations?

Most Christian religions agree on most things with a few minor variances. It's no different then when two people read a comic. They read the same thing but one thinks Thor is stronger then Hulk and vice versa. Give me some examples of contradictions among religions or parts of the Bible that needs interpretation so i can better understand you.

@SC: Given different readers different cultures, different education levels, different ages, different family make ups, different countries, different laws, different upbringing thats a lot of subjectivity to be accounted for, do you not think?

No i don't think that way. I don't think the Bible is complicated.

The Bible is but one component. The Bible needs to be read does it not, by people? So you can not see how the things I mentioned relate to the diversity and variety in people? Do you think people are as complicated (simple) as the Bible? I ask because your short answer was the reader discerns what is vile or not as far as Bible interpretation correct? So you do not think that there is anyone who uses the Bible incorrectly? If the reader gets to to decide then doesn't the Bible lose its purpose as an objective guide?

@pooty said:

Most Christian religions agree on most things with a few minor variances. It's no different then when two people read a comic. They read the same thing but one thinks Thor is stronger then Hulk and vice versa. Give me some examples of contradictions among religions or parts of the Bible that needs interpretation so i can better understand you.

Sure I will think about which ones specifically. How about as a warm up explaining why some sincerely believe the bible as literal where as others do not? Maybe it might help as well if you could include two or three moral lessons the Bible teaches that wouldn't be known through other natural means or sources?

So you can not see how the things I mentioned relate to the diversity and variety in people?

Because of the things you mentioned i can see some "small" variances. The Bible is NOT algebra. It's pretty simple.

I ask because your short answer was the reader discerns what is vile or not as far as Bible interpretation correct?

Someone had posted a scripture and they didn't know the context it was spoken in. He made it vile by being ignorant of the context. He made it vile simply because he wanted to.

So you do not think that there is anyone who uses the Bible incorrectly?

Sure. Many cults do and some ministers. But the Bible is like water. It should be life giving and good. But if you personally are a bad person you can use water to torture or drown someone.

If the reader gets to to decide then doesn't the Bible lose its purpose as an objective guide?

There is little room for interpretation.....for the most part. Some books like Revelation are FULL of symbolism but it clearly states that. The parts about morals and how to live are so clear a child can understand them.

How about as a warm up explaining why some sincerely believe the bible as literal where as others do not?

some parts are symbolic so people disagree on those parts. but those are specific minority of books.

include two or three moral lessons the Bible teaches that wouldn't be known through other natural means or sources

The only thing believers have to go on based on this 2000 or so year old book is that they believe in it,they dont have one shred of evidence that will hold up to modern day thinking.

I disagree with you on this but there is no way to lay out an argument on a thread in a forum with so many dissonant voices shouting and so many discussions going on all at once. I tried once in a different thread but gave up because there was no rhyme or reason. It seems to me in reality that all some of you wish to do to gather together with like minded fellows and beat up on straw men. That is your perogative.

I am only posting here to say that so you know there are dissenting opinions. And I am only speaking to the quote above not directly to the discussion on homosexuality.

It bothers me when people say religion when they just mean Christianity. I know this statement seems out of place but when ever religion comes into these debates, and it always does all these people that say religion in general is the problem and then focus their entire rationale around the bible. Stop that, there are thousands of religions in the world with varying degrees of tolerance on all subjects.

It bothers me when people say religion when they just mean Christianity. I know this statement seems out of place but when ever religion comes into these debates, and it always does all these people that say religion in general is the problem and then focus their entire rationale around the bible. Stop that, there are thousands of religions in the world with varying degrees of tolerance on all subjects.

This is very true. We should always take a moment to define what we mean. Otherwise there can be no communication.

Because of the things you mentioned i can see some "small" variances. The Bible is NOT algebra. It's pretty simple.

I am curious though? I am talking about people but you reply by saying quote "The Bible is NOT algebra" and I just want to be clear here, I am not saying the Bible is or isn't, I am speaking of people? Since if you have two interacting variables, one of them can be simple, but it doesn't mean the interaction between the simple component and or the other component will be simple.

@pooty said:

Someone had posted a scripture and they didn't know the context it was spoken in. He made it vile by being ignorant of the context. He made it vile simply because he wanted to.

1. So in this scenario the person who decides the context is you correct? 2. Ignorance and a person intentionally making something that it is not are two very different things? Could both things also sincerely apply to many types of people who read the Bible? @pooty said:

Sure. Many cults do and some ministers. But the Bible is like water. It should be life giving and good. But if you personally are a bad person you can use water to torture or drown someone.

I know we are covering similar ground over and over again, but I promise I am sincere but if its the reader that determines whose use of the Bible is valid could the cults and some ministers you mention be under the belief they are using it correctly? Could many people accuse you of using it incorrectly? The definitions for bad and evil for example have changed numerous times over history with improvements in health and medicine. Forgive me if I am overextending your analogy but if a person has genetic and environmental reasons for not being able to understand a guide to drinking water they may realize say that its important to drink eight glasses a day but they may not realize something as innocent as drinking too much water can kill. The population of my entire country are killed by water related diseases every year. Who is the bad guy in this situation? The people that know about this or the people that don't, the people who are too poor too afford cleaner water? All the people that don't try to help the situation? Is there even a bad guy at all? As opposed to people who are struggling, some more than others?

@pooty said:

There is little room for interpretation.....for the most part. Some books like Revelation are FULL of symbolism but it clearly states that. The parts about morals and how to live are so clear a child can understand them.

I don't know. I definitely don't want to seem like I am trying to trick you or exploit a loophole in what you say, but saying there is a little room for interpretation (for the most part) sounds like introducing subjectivity into this all? Can you see how that raises eyebrows? Even if its a little room,because a little room is still relative. Do you know much about child psychology and child brain development? There have been really interesting breakthroughs in last decade or so with children's brain development and misconceptions adults have always had about how children think and how children learn. Lots of natural assumptions about mathematics, linguistics, visual understanding, cognitive abilities etc so for me personally, there is a certain irony in your statement because chances are a child is going to understand and pick up more than an adult. The one thing an adult can definitely do better than a child is... question. Critically question and reflect and doubt. Children can learn faster and harder but they soak up information without any well developed filter. Also if the part about morals are so simple that a child could understand them, isn't that a very incredibly bad thing? Given we live in a world where complicated and adult things happen? What about the evolution of morality? What about people like Lawrence Kohlberg. Sam Harris? So you know about the trolly test hypothetical right? What would be the Bible answer/stance do you think?

@pooty said:

some parts are symbolic so people disagree on those parts. but those are specific minority of books.

include two or three moral lessons the Bible teaches that wouldn't be known through other natural means or sources

1) The Good Samaritan

2) The Adulteress Woman

3) Daniel and The Lions Pit

4) David and Bathsheeba

Thank you, much appreciated. Great selection. Mind if we just focus on the first for a bit? The Good Samaritan? Is it okay that I assume the Golden Rule is being referenced here as a moral lesson? Its not the first time its touched on in the Bible I am aware, it manifests to various degree in the Old Testament correct? Still how would one account for all the other places it appears outside of the Bible? Ancient Greece, Egypt, China? Wouldn't the Platinum Rule serve the story better? What of natural empathy, intelligent reasoning and reciprocal altruism? Hey, I appreciate your time and discussion!

most things in the Bible don't need interpretations. Most interpretations are only needed for symbolic things. the bible is pretty straight forward and clear especially regarding morals.

short answer: the reader

Given different readers different cultures, different education levels, different ages, different family make ups, different countries, different laws, different upbringing thats a lot of subjectivity to be accounted for, do you not think? How would you personally account for variation with interpretation? If things are so straight forward why is there so much disagreement with interpretations? (I mean interpretation as in processing meaning, so the inherent process a person would have at reading - even straight forward and clear writings, rather than say aesthetic interpretation)

@mrdecepticonleader: Well thats the thing about the Bible really, its used so ambiguously by so many, and many of those people that use it do so to give the illusion that the Bible is still relevant today (as a guide for morality) and really for a long long time it was easy to hold that illusion. These days though its relatively easy to access plenty of ideas and results and education about neurology, biology, history, theology even if you don't get the paper qualifications that require thousands of dollars, (or the credibility or accountability that comes along with such qualifications) its still amazingly wonderful the access and exposure relatively poor people have to intellectual enlightenment and discovery. Just an open mind, exposure and some good old critical thinking allows for more open and healthier conversation. If people are being sincere about finding the truth things get fun pretty fast. Oh and thanks for the kind words.

No problem.

Religion is used as a way of controlling people.And the things you mentioned (biology history neurobiology etc) out date these religious texts by far and show how out dated they really are.

Instead of "controlling", do you mean "guiding?"

Nope I mean controlling,not guiding.

@kuonphobos said:

@mrdecepticonleader said:

The only thing believers have to go on based on this 2000 or so year old book is that they believe in it,they dont have one shred of evidence that will hold up to modern day thinking.

I disagree with you on this but there is no way to lay out an argument on a thread in a forum with so many dissonant voices shouting and so many discussions going on all at once. I tried once in a different thread but gave up because there was no rhyme or reason. It seems to me in reality that all some of you wish to do to gather together with like minded fellows and beat up on straw men. That is your perogative.

I am only posting here to say that so you know there are dissenting opinions. And I am only speaking to the quote above not directly to the discussion on homosexuality.

That is all.

All I said was that religion shouldn't be used to excuse discrimination against people for their sexual orientation,since as I said in my post we have moved away so much from biblical times I see no reason why this instance should be any different.

But you took my quote out of context and didn't seem to bother looking at the rest of it.

I am curious though? I am talking about people but you reply by saying quote "The Bible is NOT algebra" and I just want to be clear here, I am not saying the Bible is or isn't, I am speaking of people? Since if you have two interacting variables, one of them can be simple, but it doesn't mean the interaction between the simple component and or the other component will be simple.

So you're asking "Do i think PEOPLE are simple or complicated? I think people are simple. We have basic needs and desires.

So in this scenario the person who decides the context is you correct? 2. Ignorance and a person intentionally making something that it is not are two very different things? Could both things also sincerely apply to many types of people who read the Bible

No, the person tried to say Jesus said something. where in the scripture it clearly says it was Paul who said it. You can't interpret who said something when it is clearly stated.

could the cults and some ministers you mention be under the belief they are using it correctly?

they could be under that impression. just like Nazi's were under the impression that they were right.

Could many people accuse you of using it incorrectly?

I don't think so. not any people that I know of

The definitions for bad and evil for example have changed numerous times over history with improvements in health and medicine

but many definitions stay the same. If you read: "Don't rape anyone" that definition will stay the same forever. most of the bible is as simple as "don't rape anyone". 90% of the Bibles morals are still valid today

there is a certain irony in your statement because chances are a child is going to understand and pick up more than an adult. Also if the part about morals are so simple that a child could understand them,

that was me being sarcastic. don't take that literal. just illustrating that the Bible is simple to understand

What about the evolution of morality?

a few things have changed. but as stated most of the Bible morals hold strong today

Still how would one account for all the other places it appears outside of the Bible? Ancient Greece, Egypt, China? Wouldn't the Platinum Rule serve the story better?

this illustrates that many morals do not change over time. people say the story in different ways but the meaning stays the same no matter where you are.

What of natural empathy, intelligent reasoning and reciprocal altruism?

all those qualities exist and are emphasized in the Bible in many stories. they compliment each other.

Hey, I appreciate your time and discussion!

Anytime my friend

@kuonphobos said:

@mrdecepticonleader said:

The only thing believers have to go on based on this 2000 or so year old book is that they believe in it,they dont have one shred of evidence that will hold up to modern day thinking.

I disagree with you on this but there is no way to lay out an argument on a thread in a forum with so many dissonant voices shouting and so many discussions going on all at once. I tried once in a different thread but gave up because there was no rhyme or reason. It seems to me in reality that all some of you wish to do to gather together with like minded fellows and beat up on straw men. That is your perogative.

I am only posting here to say that so you know there are dissenting opinions. And I am only speaking to the quote above not directly to the discussion on homosexuality.

That is all.

I am one of those dissenting opinions like you. I don't think the Bible does anything to promote discrimination or hatred or bigotry against anyone. and most of the Bibles standards hold strong today. so you're not alone and if you know your stuff, no one will think you are made of straw.

Okay, here is my opinion on not only homosexual marriage but any kind of government restrictions on any marital or sexual endeavours, regardless of how strange or perverse I view them to be. As long as everyone is sane and of consenting age go for it. You wanna marry/f*ck your brother? Go for it, it doesn't affect me. You wanna stick it in another dude or if two girls wanna get it on. Again, have at it. It's not my business and all parties are of an age where they are able to consent. There are already laws regarding sexual conduct in public places so what's the issue? The government telling people what they can and can't do when all parties are able to agree is like the government deciding it's okay to kill people. It's not their place and in the long run it takes us down a bad road.

Assuming the other thread only got locked because the thread starter requested it, and thus assuming its okay to start a new thread. Especially since so many great conversations were being had in the prior thread. I'll edit in something more substantial later into OP, right now I wish to get back into conversation with those I was conversing with.

it will end up the same way , Locked and now it's even worse cause you added 50% more gay LOL!

The only thing believers have to go on based on this 2000 or so year old book is that they believe in it,they dont have one shred of evidence that will hold up to modern day thinking.

I disagree with you on this but there is no way to lay out an argument on a thread in a forum with so many dissonant voices shouting and so many discussions going on all at once. I tried once in a different thread but gave up because there was no rhyme or reason. It seems to me in reality that all some of you wish to do to gather together with like minded fellows and beat up on straw men. That is your perogative.

I am only posting here to say that so you know there are dissenting opinions. And I am only speaking to the quote above not directly to the discussion on homosexuality.

That is all.

All I said was that religion shouldn't be used to excuse discrimination against people for their sexual orientation,since as I said in my post we have moved away so much from biblical times I see no reason why this instance should be any different.

But you took my quote out of context and didn't seem to bother looking at the rest of it.

I don't want to derail this thread and it seems as if it starting to just be a discussion about Biblical interpretation but I just wanted to reply to this.

I did read your entire posts. I read everything that had been posted so far in the thread. I specifically focused upon the phrase you stated (which I quoted) because that was the sentiment I disagreed with. You said "they don't have one shred of evidence that will hold up to modern day thinking"

That is a separate opinion from "all I said was that religion shouldn't be used to excuse discrimination" .

I agree very strongly that religion shouldn't be used to excuse discrimination. I however don't agree that there is no shred of evidence that would hold up to modern day thinking concerning the Bible.

@SC: @pooty: No, the person tried to say Jesus said something. where in the scripture it clearly says it was Paul who said it. You can't interpret who said something when it is clearly stated.

For the record I am that person and I never said it was Jesus who said it, that was someone else. The quote was from the letters to Paul. It was a quote that talked about how slaves that were Christian should respect their masters because they were Christians two (I apologize for not having the exact quotes ready since I do not know where my copy of the new testament is). The other quote I posted was about how it was ok to beat your servant, or slave as the case may be, if the disobeyed your orders but not as severely if they did not know what they did was wrong. The only reason I posted these is because I had referenced the fact that the bible had said slavery was alright in it and Pooty you said it was only in the old testament. All I was doing was refuting your claim. Also I was the one who said that there are parts in the bible that I find to be vile. Not really in the new testament but in the old testament most assuredly. I also said that I find it odd how some people can take certain verses in the bible that seem to be vile and twist them into a positive light. And you responded the exact same comment except with the amendment of people taking verses from the bible and making them vile. And really what that conversation showed is that SC is right in his argument about how the bible can be taken many different ways. Everyone is brought up differently with different ideals and beliefs ingrained in them as a child. People aren't simple. Most things aren't when it comes to matters of perception and opinion.

In my opinion there should be no religious debate brought up in the subject of gay marriage since (at least in the country I reside in) there is a separation of church and state. It is also not in my opinion a matter of states rights since to me this is a civil rights issue and all civil rights issues should be handled on a national level.

Okay, I can stand people talking about gay marriage. While I don't agree with it, it's people's right to talk about it.

But why the emphasis on the Bible? The Torah also holds negative values on homosexuality (since it's the "old Testament" of the Bible) and the Koran preaches things to be done to gays that not even the Bible dares mentioning.

Now I will say this; most Muslims are good people. Just as good as most Jews and Christians (and Atheists/Agnostics if you spread out the divide), but the Islamic texts, when taken verbatim, actually call for the mistreatment and (sometimes) murder of gays. Why isn't this ever mentioned? The bible frowns on homosexuality, but says for the most part judgement is to be by God.

Long story short, if you want to be hating Christians and want to laugh at Jesus as he's pinned on the cross, go ahead. Just look up all other major religions and see how they view homosexuality. Don't pick a martyr because everyone else is doing it.

@Necrotic_Lycanthrope: You make a good point. I'm very pro gay marriage myself, but I find it frustrating that these discussions always turn into debates about Christianity rather than the wider issue. It would be interesting to learn more about the attitudes of other cultures.