having someone plastered against the wall and fight someone in front of you. You REALLY get in the in-your-face fighting that way.

A good one. Did that with Walter Mattson a few months back.

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What do you think are the best lines a woman could use to turn a man down while leaving his dignity intact?

Depends on the situation. But the common denominator should be “firm and polite” _ always allow the man to save face initially.As you say, Heather, it is all about perception.

So for safety sake, it is best to use expressions that do not inflame the man’s sensibilities, yet send a clear message his advances are not welcome.

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He continues to pursue her until she feels the need to request in a strong way that he stop. This is not always the safest course of action, but until she can find a way to be clear or remove herself from the situation, often the man will continue to pursue her without regard to the messages she is sending out. I find this insensitive, wearing, and obnoxious.

I agree. But you must also be careful of what messages you might be sending out that might encourage this behavior. Many women do this in so many ways that denote a character flaw.

One good way to relieve the pressure is to drop the hint that you are with someone, or waiting for someone to get off work, who is a cop, and is insanely jealous, even if you are without a man for the night, so it is best all around for you to be left alone.

Like everyone else, I was bothered by telemarketers every night. You have to realize that a well-trained telemarketer is like an unwanted suitor. THEY USE YOUR SENSE OF SOCIAL ETIQUETTE AGAINST YOU. They start with nonstop chatter, ask you a few questions with an obvious answer (to make you feel engaged), and continue on and on and on until they break through your defenses. Meanwhile, you have dinner on the stove and/or kids to pick up and/or a workout to get to, and you have absolutely no interest in the garbage they are foisting on you.

At some point - realizing that these parasites didn't deserve my time - I decided to just hang up. Like most people, I can pick them out within the first five seconds of conversation. Well one day shortly after I developed this policy, I got an immediate return phone call, and the woman on the other end of the line started to curse me out (with the most vile language) for beind rude. I KID YOU NOT!!! And of course when I tried caller ID, their number was blocked. There was nothing I could do about the obvious infraction of the law.

I changed my tactic. I now politely say "No thank you" (not waiting for a pause that they will NEVER give you) and THEN hang up (not waiting for the acknowledgement that they will NEVER give you). I got no more angry phone calls back. Heck...I'm saving THEM time because I NEVER buy anything from them.

Of course these days I can block out all blocked numbers. That saves me 99% of the trouble now.

I can tell you that I have a great deal of empathy for women, if unwanted suitors are anything like telemarketers. My guess is that a number of them probably are. I'm a people watcher in public, and I've seen this nonsense. The worst of them are not ever going to give you a polite way out of the situation, so it doesn't pay to be overly polite. Perhaps the firm "No thank you" followed by a nonresponse to additional chatter is the way to go for MOST situations.

And finally (to Van), a great sparring exercise I like is having someone plastered against the wall and fight someone in front of you. You REALLY get in the in-your-face fighting that way.

MAKE SURE YOU DO THIS WITH PARTNERS YOU TRUST. Having one's back to the wall and fighting, for me, really brings me into a "fight or die" mentality and I'll act that way (a cornered animal). On two different sparring occaisons with folks I didn't know well, I was backed into a wall by the (of course, bigger) opponents who wouldn't stop. One guy I totally smashed his nose. Talk about "blood spray!" The second one I knocked out.

I hear you, and you are right.It does bring out the "cornered rat" instinct.

Same goes for the mindless, repetitious leg and body pounding, some senseis enjoy inflicting on their students standing still in sanchin, not as much as a training tool [ as many top senseis believe it is the wrong type of programming for a street fight]__ but because they want to show off how hard they can hit in a macho contest.

They don't realize how easy it is for them to get really hurt in a vicious counter-attack when awakening primal instincts, and in many cases this has happened as you know.

There were two things during the course that I think leave room for reflection.

1. Nothing was said about what you might do after you get hit hard. The instructor basically dismissed the concern saying that you would keep fighting.

2. I raise the point that if you've actually managed to palm heel and knee the agressor to the ground they're going to cover their heads -- but they may still be a threat so you might have to attack through the defensive posture. I said that this might be difficult for some. The instructor asked the group their thoughts - one young college woman answered that she thought it was silly -- of course you would keep hitting them.But it's not that simple.

Even during the bulletman scenarios it was difficult to hit through their covering hands to their heads -- and those guys were wearing padded football helmets.Dana

hee hee.... i'm not nice at all to telemarketers. If I get one on the phone, I demand to talk to supervisors and DEMAND they remove my number from their list permanently.

heres a tip: The thing about the device Van is talking about is that sends the signal to telemarketers computers is that it uses the same DTMF tone that you get when you call a disconnected number (3 tones progressing higher in frequency). Something that helps is to call a known disconnected number and record this tone with your computer mic by holding it up to the reciever on your phone (frequency and duration of the tone are important). You can then import this recording into a sound editor like Cool Edit or Sound Forge and run filters on it and clean it up so that it's good as new. Then, using your speaker, record a new answering machine message starting with the 3 tones then your message following. Screen your calls for a while, let your answering machine do what it is supposed to do, answer the phone.

Great replies in this thread, Dana-Sensei,and all the others as well. My interjections will be from the side of someone who makes a good part of his living walking up to strangers and engaging them in conversation and doing magic at their table in a bar or restaurant. IMHO, it should be pretty obvious that this could easily be perceived as "hitting" on someone unless some very good markings are given. Obviously, these tactics can also be used by people who just want to have a conversation, connect, etc., without the harassment issues.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by uechiwoman:Thank you, Van. And yes, I know you are not hitting me. I like smiling at people I consider friends.

In response to your post:If men are getting the "hitting on" label then their "good-natured" remarks are not being perceived as such by the women they approach.

**Excellent noticing, Heather! And one that many men, IME, simply do not understand. If men were to think how they would react to some guy asking THEM for a smile, they'd probably refrain. Sometimes, an engagement of conversation is easier by making a comment on something slightly unusual instead, or by a slight joke, such as, "It's too early in the morning to be THIS early in the morning." to someone on an elevator. It gets a chuckle, usually, and often a comment of agreement. A better opening.

**One should give, before expecting someone to give of themselves, even if only a smile or a kind word.

Women may also be asking for clarification by asking "Are you hitting on me?" She may want to know if a man speaks to all women in his presence the same way or if the attention is specific to her. I have heard women ask the question in a playful way and be glad when the guy replied yes.

**Another excellent comment. In working in the entertainment biz, I have often seen women take far more kindly to a guy who "fesses up" to hitting on her than to the guys with a hidden agenda. Honesty is rather refreshing in personal interactions, especially in bars and restaurants.

**Also, when I approach a table, I state, plainly, that I work here and that this is NOT a random hit. Again, the chuckle and a more open response.

Van wrote:"The 'insulted' man might just make that callous remark become a self-fulfilling prophecy, and in many cases, it has."

Unfortunately this is true. It is often the case that a man who is so insulted by what he perceives as an insensitive remark and an affront to his manhood, has not taken many verbal and physical hints from the woman that she was not enjoying his particular kind of attention. A man so easily moved to violence because of his inability to influence the actions and affections of another MOST LIKELY WILL NOT TAKE A POLITE NO FOR AN ANSWER. He continues to pursue her until she feels the need to request in a strong way that he stop. This is not always the safest course of action, but until she can find a way to be clear or remove herself from the situation, often the man will continue to pursue her without regard to the messages she is sending out. I find this insensitive, wearing, and obnoxious.

**Roger THAT, Heather! Often in the bar I work in on the weekends, I have seen some guy get bent out of shape because a lady decided that she did not find him the be-all and end-all in the attractiveness department. In most cases, he will leave with a snide comment, or just leave, but in extreme cases, I have had to step up to the table and start doing my magic stuff to keep things from getting out of hand. It has not, yet, gotten to the point of having to call our bouncer (who is a Wing Chun specialist).

**Guys most vulnerable part, often, is the ego. Hit that and an attack response is more likely. This is where finesse can play a part, but some guys are so brain-dead that finesse would amount to a 2x4 to the forehead. These are the dangerous situations, IME.

I know sometimes men feel that the woman is playing hard to get and that in order to make sure that she doesn't really like them that they need to pursue her until a firm no is received. Women need to learn to say no earlier on in a way that the man can hear it.

**Truer words were never spoken, Heather! Brava to you on this one! The hard to get game is a dangerous game when played with the wrong partner, especially if the guy has been on the wrong end of what I call a push-me player too often.

**A push-me player is a woman who seems to get off on being pushed into a sexual encounter. While rare, they DO exist and they serve to muddy the waters for some of these guys. These are the women who say "No" when they really DO mean "YES!" This is a very dangerous game for the woman and makes it more difficult for other women to make their NO get heard.

**Such players make things more confusing for some guys and have caused more than a few situations where mixed signals (the woman's body language not matching her words) caused damage. Congruency in communication is VITAL in self defense and it sounds like your course took a lot of time on that, which is very good.

What do you think are the best lines a woman could use to turn a man down while leaving his dignity intact?

-Heather<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

** Lines I have heard used in the bar:"Sorry, but my boyfriend is due here any minute. We're engaged."

The escape: the lady being hassled suddenly smiles and waves to another woman in the room "Sally! Over here!" and runs to the other woman, leaving the guy behind. She does not know the woman, but says to her, "Cover me, this guy's been hassling me all night." Most often the other woman will cooperate. Slightly risky, but effective. Guys don't like to hassle women in groups nearly as much as a lone woman.

And the strongest one, without a direct attack: "No. I mean No. Do I have to call the bouncer?"

Great thread! Let's keep this one going and maybe bring part of it over to Verbal Self Defense as well, okay?

This is my first time on this site. A friend reccomended it to me. This is a good thread. My question is Why do we not learn to defend attacks against the head? In my dojo we do. They are right. Most attacks are to the head in a street fight. We train to hit to the head. We learn the vital points there.We have to learn to defend. Something else that seems to be missing in this thread is that we are kickers and punchers, being Karateka. That is why we train these things. All of the technique we need are in our Kata. Use them! On another note , we also are supposed to learn how to handle a situation as a karateka. If we are not learning these things through our training we are not training all the areas of martial arts.

Let me clarify the nature of the class discussed above. It was a one time women's self-defense class for the general public at a community center. It was not geared toward women martial artists although there were a few in the group, myself included. For many of the women in the group this was the first time they had ever tried to hit something with any force. The use of palm heels and knees are safe effective weapons to teach first to non-karateka. I would not want to teach someone to rely on a regular punch with only one day of training to back it up.

Welcome. In my experience - even folks who think that "all is in kata" should take a moment to reflect on the fact that many of the arts we practice were designed several centuries ago. Therefore they don't take into account things like guns, knives, and civil litigation.

So all the moves you need to hurt someone without a modern weapon may be in a kata - but it doesn't provide you with the street awareness and knowledge of your rights in modern society.

And to echo what Heather said - the class wasn't for women marital artists - it was for women and started from the idea that the people in the class knew zero self-defense.

folks who think that "all is in kata" [and in body conditioning/bunkai/kumite] should take a moment to reflect on the fact that many of the arts we practice were designed several centuries ago. Therefore they don't take into account things like guns, knives, and civil litigation.

Very true. Many martial artists become obsessed with their own “supposed” street prowess, largely untested, where they also envision successful disarms of knives and guns.

Hi Dana--
It sounds like you attended an excellent defense course!
Going to the ground by choice is the only thing that I would question, regardless of the number of attackers.
If you don't nail the attacker on his way in, he's in way too close. Then you do have a serious ground fight. Finish the guy while you are on your feet, send him to the ground instead.
Tony Blauer stresses the fact that concrete is not "user-friendly"; neither are stairs, sidewalk curbs, etc.
This is in reference to the video "How To Beat A Grappler".
Being a very small person myself, I don't want to give the bigger, stronger attacker any more advantage than he has already. After having been in numersous fights that ended up on the ground, I am determined to never go to the ground again as long as I am conscious.
You've got a great forum, Dana. Keep up the good work!
Frank
Sarasota, FL

I train with a friend who has his own club, basically wing-chun based.but lots of street stuff as well.....this week he totally blew me away with his knowledge of groundwork, he had spent Quite a lot of time and expence travelling to train in " Vale Tude" which is basically the same stuff the Gracies do.....although I don't think the ground is the place in a streetfight, I must say that for one on one, with a bigger stronger opponent, Vale Tude " Rocks"..I was most impressed.
Also many moons ago my wife who is a nurse, trained a self defence course with an ex LEO...who basically taught her how to cover her vital organs, where to strike etc and how to break away from grips, and again that was most impressive ....showed me stuff that I hadn't even considered

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