pittsoccer33 wrote:entitlement programs do not lift people from poverty and they do not motivate people into prosperity even though this is how they are advertised. they create a class of people dependant on the federal government.

Agreed.

We need programs that help people get out of bad situations, not perpetuate them. In regards to the healthcare bill, I am not saying that it is going to perpetuate a bad situation (I still haven't read it).

First, anyone making the argument that government will only mess seems to not understand that the government is already involved in health care, Medicare and Medicaid, and so is the VA. The government program will simple be an option, no one will have to get rid of there private health insurance. I'm not that big of fan of this option, I am for a single payer, but that was taken off the table. I don't think this bill answers the fundamental problems with insurance companies.

Healthcare is not a right. Rights are unalienable and from our creator. If the government can take it away it is not a right.

Would this creator want 20k people to die a year because they can't get proper health care?

I don't understand how people believe it is fair to "tax" the "rich" because they have it. The rich are not by definition greedy, evil, or in anyway deserving of such disparate treatment. They have worked hard for their money and have earned it by providing goods and services, excellent goods and services, that we all want.

Furthermore, since when did we forfeit our right to free enterprise? When did corporations that established great successful companies, forfeit their right to earn a profit? Since when has the government ever run anything at all that was successful enough that we should desire they provide us with services in place of the private sector?

Lolz,disparate treatment like taxing people that make over 250k 3% more is disparate treatment. How do you know how hard they have worked? Don't middle class people work pretty hard too?

Free enterprise doesn't work in health care,if when people try to make a profit off other people being sick, things don't work out that well. What a spirited defense of the rich you just gave us, do you have class envy? The post office?, OMG the government is offering people an option they must be trying to take over everything.

doublem wrote:America spends the most money on health care and has the worst numbers. The child poverty level is the highest in the industrialized world. The system is broken.

That's what disappoints me so much with this current political "debate". The Dems just want to push it through so they can say "See, we did it!" The Repubs just want to kill so they can say "See, we beat Obama and we CAN win in 2012!"

Neither side seems serious about fixing a terribly broken system and the American people and the small (and big) businesses who are struggling to make ends meet due to skyrocketing insurance premiums are the ones who are losing.

Healthcare is not a right. Rights are unalienable and from our creator. If the government can take it away it is not a right.

Would this creator want 20k people to die a year because they can't get proper health care?

The opposite side of that is with the new healthcare there is a very good chance that some people (elderly and "terminally" ill) wont be offered treatment at all. They will be given pain meds and that's it. Is it fair that someone wont get treated because there is a %90 chance they will die? A friend of mine was diagnosed with a rare form of bone cancer when he was 14. He was given a %2.3 chance to live. He's 28 and still kickin' today due to experimental and aggresive treatment. He probably wouldn't have received that treatment under this new bill.

As I said before, I have not read it yet so correct me if I'm wrong but don't tell me it's because we will still have private health care. We wont after 5-10 years of government funded care. It's just not possible in a capitalist society.

doublem wrote:America spends the most money on health care and has the worst numbers. The child poverty level is the highest in the industrialized world. The system is broken.

That's what disappoints me so much with this current political "debate". The Dems just want to push it through so they can say "See, we did it!" The Repubs just want to kill so they can say "See, we beat Obama and we CAN win in 2012!"

Neither side seems serious about fixing a terribly broken system and the American people and the small (and big) businesses who are struggling to make ends meet due to skyrocketing insurance premiums are the ones who are losing.

I am afraid that we will get something so watered down that it won't really change anything. The politicians are getting paid , so of course they don't care about the America people. In today's politic climate everyone has to pick a side and the common good is forgotten.

Healthcare is not a right. Rights are unalienable and from our creator. If the government can take it away it is not a right.

Would this creator want 20k people to die a year because they can't get proper health care?

The opposite side of that is with the new healthcare there is a very good chance that some people (elderly and "terminally" ill) wont be offered treatment at all. They will be given pain meds and that's it. Is it fair that someone wont get treated because there is a %90 chance they will die? A friend of mine was diagnosed with a rare form of bone cancer when he was 14. He was given a %2.3 chance to live. He's 28 and still kickin' today due to experimental and aggresive treatment. He probably wouldn't have received that treatment under this new bill.

As I said before, I have not read it yet so correct me if I'm wrong but don't tell me it's because we will still have private health care. We wont after 5-10 years of government funded care. It's just not possible in a capitalist society.

First,that is impossible to determine , but that happens every day with insurance companies they push people off medications when they determine they can no longer be helped. The government plan is simple an option to go along side private companies, do you really think that private insurance companies are going to go away? This is not a single payer plan. Again, we already have Medicare and Medcaid, and VA''s, did that end capitalism?

doublem wrote:Would this creator want 20k people to die a year because they can't get proper health care?

????? Walk into a hospital with a serious problem and you will, by law, get treated.

What world do you live in? They will only treat the serious problem and that is it. The problem is people can't get medication, they can't go to the doctors on a regular bases. They can't pay for surgery and hospital stays, the problem isn't if you have a heart attack and go to the E.R., the problem is everything after that.

pittsoccer33 wrote:????? Walk into a hospital with a serious problem and you will, by law, get treated.

Do you really believe that? How do you define serious? Walk into a hospital with a broken arm? Sure, they'll fix it. Get rushed into a hospital after a car crash and suffering internal bleeding. Yep, they'll do surgery.

Walk into a hospital with late stage cancer and no insurance? Sorry, they're not going to give you chemo. Maybe you have a rare form of cancer and need a bone marrow transplant. Sorry, you're out of luck, chump.

My 2nd cousin had a rare form of cancer and needed a bone marrow transplant. He went to the Cleveland Clinic for the procedure. He had good insurance (he is a County employee) and he still needed to pay an additional $200K for the transplant and the aftercare.

There are some things you're guaranteed to get treated. Accidents, mostly. Long term illnesses? The uninsured or under-insured are dead men and women walking.

Hockeynut! wrote:Walk into a hospital with late stage cancer and no insurance? Sorry, they're not going to give you chemo. Maybe you have a rare form of cancer and need a bone marrow transplant. Sorry, you're out of luck, chump.

Neither will Obamacare. He said that to a woman on his ABC infomertial. You get a pain pill.

Hockeynut! wrote:Walk into a hospital with late stage cancer and no insurance? Sorry, they're not going to give you chemo. Maybe you have a rare form of cancer and need a bone marrow transplant. Sorry, you're out of luck, chump.

Neither will Obamacare. He said that to a woman on his ABC infomertial. You get a pain pill.

No he didn't that wasn't in context. Stopping listening to Rush or Glenn Beck.

Hockeynut! wrote:Walk into a hospital with late stage cancer and no insurance? Sorry, they're not going to give you chemo. Maybe you have a rare form of cancer and need a bone marrow transplant. Sorry, you're out of luck, chump.

Neither will Obamacare. He said that to a woman on his ABC infomertial. You get a pain pill.

No he didn't that wasn't in context. Stopping listening to Rush or Glenn Beck.

Hockeynut! wrote:Walk into a hospital with late stage cancer and no insurance? Sorry, they're not going to give you chemo. Maybe you have a rare form of cancer and need a bone marrow transplant. Sorry, you're out of luck, chump.

Neither will Obamacare. He said that to a woman on his ABC infomertial. You get a pain pill.

Can you provide a link or something to this? You've mentioned it a couple times, but just would like to see it if possible.

edit: nevermind, thanks

Last edited by MWB on Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I give up. Keep living in your dream world where everything is sunshine and puppy dogs under Republican leadership and everything is poison and cockroaches under Dems. You're a shill and you don't even begin to care about REAL issues affecting REAL people as long as your side wins.

I didn't say Obama's plan was perfect or even that it should be passed. I simply pointed out that people like you only want to defeat Obama and don't care about fixing the real problem. And it won't pass. So kudos. You and the rest of the "OMG, socialism!!!" crowd can go and celebrate which the quality of health care in American and the average life span continues to fall below the standard in most of the rest of the civilized world and while American citizens and businesses can continue to pay a growingly disproportionate percentage of their income for said health care. Job well done.

Last edited by Hockeynut! on Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Hockeynut! wrote:I give up. Keep living in your dream world where everything is sunshine and puppy dogs under Republican leadership and everything is poison and cockroaches under Dems. You're a shill and you don't even begin to care about REAL issues affecting REAL people as long as your side wins.

It isn't about political parties. Its about a deranged idealogy that implies the federal government can solve problems when we see time and time again that isnt true. American ingenuity does.

pittsoccer33 wrote:It isn't about political parties. Its about a deranged idealogy that implies the federal government can solve problems when we see time and time again that isnt true. American ingenuity does.

And American ingenuity is working now?

You refuse to admit the system isn't working. That is what this is about.

pittsoccer33 wrote:entitlement programs do not lift people from poverty and they do not motivate people into prosperity even though this is how they are advertised. they create a class of people dependant on the federal government.

pittsoccer33 wrote:entitlement programs do not lift people from poverty and they do not motivate people into prosperity even though this is how they are advertised. they create a class of people dependant on the federal government.

I wholeheartedly agree.

Just look at this, higher social expenditures equal lower poverty for children. Just as an example. This is a little old.

I can only assume that you realize how out of context you are taking this. There are some cases, especially with older people, where surgery or invasive procedures are not worth the risk. Recovery is very difficult and not highly likely. So yes, some people are better off living the rest of their time comfortably with pain medication. It's not like an 80 year old can bounce back from an invasive surgery as quickly as a 30 year old. My grandfather had cancer and when chemo and radiation didn't work the doctors said that surgery was an option, but didn't recommend it, saying it could only complicate matters more and make him more uncomfortable and be more painful. So they gave the scenarios... surgery that may or may not work or pain medication. This is exactly the type of situation that Obama was referring to.

I'd like to know what kind of private insurance some of you have where bureaucrats aren't making decisions about your health care and you can't be denied coverage for aggressive treatment if the insurance company decides you're too likely to die to bother paying for it. That sounds like the kind of insurance to have.