This was the first time I've actually seen the numbers....so I found it interesting. And while he's not a genuis, he's much brighter than most give him credit for.....

From CNN no less:

....his SAT scores: 566 verbal and 640 math

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/01/20/timep.affirm.action.tm/

According to many other documented articles and sites, his HS SAT Score was 1206; that translates into a 125-135 according to the conversion charts--this one says 129.

"Before the present SAT there was a correlation between SAT scores and IQ scores. (The present SAT has been changed and this correlation no longer exists) If George W. Bush’s pre-1974 SAT score was a combined 1206 as reported in numerous sites on the internet --- than this SAT score converts to an IQ of 129 on the Otis-Gamma IQ test. The Otis test is reported to have a standard deviation of between 15 and 16 which makes the converted score almost two standard deviations above the norm"

...which makes the converted score almost two standard deviations above the norm

It's also noteworthy that in an normal distribution, the results lying within one standard deviation comprise ~70% of the results, and those within two standard deviations of the mean comprise 95% of the results.

edit - stupid text drawing isn't working

Amnorix

02-01-2005, 01:00 PM

Bush isn't a stupid human being. His business success (even with Daddy's help) wouldn't be achievable by a moron.

However:

1. he ain't that bright compared to an "average" President, IMHO;

2. his public speaking skills are absolutely pathetic for a President. Better now than when he first started, but still mediocre.

But honestly, it doesn't matter? Like Reagan (probably one of the least knowledgeable President ever about public policy matters or in terms of IQ), he's surrounded himself with bright people and delegates stuff. He just kind of aims the general direction of things and delegates the rest.

And that is a better approach than even the most brilliant person, if they try to do it all themselves (which apparently was one of Carter's failings).

go bowe

02-01-2005, 01:04 PM

carter had "failings"? :eek:

Amnorix

02-01-2005, 01:08 PM

carter had "failings"? :eek:

Yeah, there's a newsflash. Honestly, it's too bad. He was a great person and was truly very, very bright.

Horrible, horrible President though. An unbelievable waste of potential.

Radar Chief

02-01-2005, 01:09 PM

carter had "failings"? :eek:

Blasphemy!

Chief Henry

02-01-2005, 01:17 PM

carter had "failings"? :eek:

I thought Carter had........................Pills ? :p

Cochise

02-01-2005, 01:18 PM

Come on, Carter was a great President.

Now turn off your heat and put on a sweater.

bkkcoh

02-01-2005, 01:27 PM

I thought Carter had........................Pills ? :p

He also had lust in heart

SBK

02-01-2005, 02:05 PM

Bush isn't a stupid human being. His business success (even with Daddy's help) wouldn't be achievable by a moron.

However:

1. he ain't that bright compared to an "average" President, IMHO;

2. his public speaking skills are absolutely pathetic for a President. Better now than when he first started, but still mediocre.

But honestly, it doesn't matter? Like Reagan (probably one of the least knowledgeable President ever about public policy matters or in terms of IQ), he's surrounded himself with bright people and delegates stuff. He just kind of aims the general direction of things and delegates the rest.

Pulling a play from the 40 year old playbook, a republican president deemed dumb. Actually 2.

No matter how good or bad a president is, they aren't dumb. You don't get that far being dumb.

I don't know why every republican is referred to as "not bright" or "stupid." It might hold weight if it wasn't EVERY SINGLE ONE.

Amnorix

02-01-2005, 08:54 PM

Pulling a play from the 40 year old playbook, a republican president deemed dumb. Actually 2.

No matter how good or bad a president is, they aren't dumb. You don't get that far being dumb.

I don't know why every republican is referred to as "not bright" or "stupid." It might hold weight if it wasn't EVERY SINGLE ONE.
Nixon was bright. Psycho though. Paranoia issues, etc.

Ford wasn't considered bright at the time, and wasn't much of a President, but he really was a fairly bright guy. Not very "Presidential" however, and being a clumsy oaf didn't help.

Ike was somewhat overrated as a general (he wasn't as good a general as many others in WWII, but he was an excellent politican, and that's more or less what Supreme Commander needed more than X and O type military talent), but he was definitely bright.

Hoover was possibly among the most qualified Presidents in American history. Extremely bright. But like Carter, and inept President.

As for current Republicans, there's plenty of bright ones. The one actually sitting in the Oval Office just ain't the sharpest tool in the shed.

Clinton was plenty bright, but he did alot of really dumb things that pissed away his chance to do much of anything, especially in his second term.

2bikemike

02-01-2005, 09:14 PM

Nixon was bright. Psycho though. Paranoia issues, etc.

Ford wasn't considered bright at the time, and wasn't much of a President, but he really was a fairly bright guy. Not very "Presidential" however, and being a clumsy oaf didn't help.

.

Actually Ford wasn't that clumsy. I just read something about him somewhere that said that was one to the biggest misconceptions about him. I believe he was a star athlete in both High School and College. IIRC he went to University of Michigan.

Cochise

02-01-2005, 09:46 PM

Nixon was bright. Psycho though. Paranoia issues, etc.

I'm partway though 'Final Days', the woodward & bernstein book (follow-up to all the president's men I suppose). He does emerge as kind of a tragic person with a lot of issues. The last few days, not sleeping, drinking, wandering the halls talking to himself and such.

Cochise

02-01-2005, 09:47 PM

Actually Ford wasn't that clumsy. I just read something about him somewhere that said that was one to the biggest misconceptions about him. I believe he was a star athlete in both High School and College. IIRC he went to University of Michigan.

He was an all-american in football there.

Hoover

02-02-2005, 08:49 AM

Bush isn't a stupid human being. His business success (even with Daddy's help) wouldn't be achievable by a moron.

However:

1. he ain't that bright compared to an "average" President, IMHO;

2. his public speaking skills are absolutely pathetic for a President. Better now than when he first started, but still mediocre.

But honestly, it doesn't matter? Like Reagan (probably one of the least knowledgeable President ever about public policy matters or in terms of IQ), he's surrounded himself with bright people and delegates stuff. He just kind of aims the general direction of things and delegates the rest.

And that is a better approach than even the most brilliant person, if they try to do it all themselves (which apparently was one of Carter's failings).
I'd rather have a guy who is smart enough to bring in good people to help (Regan/Bush) than think he can do it on his own.

Amnorix

02-02-2005, 08:57 AM

I'm partway though 'Final Days', the woodward & bernstein book (follow-up to all the president's men I suppose). He does emerge as kind of a tragic person with a lot of issues. The last few days, not sleeping, drinking, wandering the halls talking to himself and such.

It really was bad. During his Presidency he basically withdrew into a shell and had limited contacted with people outside his own very tight inner circle.

He really was a man with many issues. And, in general, not a man to be admired.

Amnorix

02-02-2005, 08:58 AM

Actually Ford wasn't that clumsy. I just read something about him somewhere that said that was one to the biggest misconceptions about him. I believe he was a star athlete in both High School and College. IIRC he went to University of Michigan.

I do vaguely remember hearing about that. Unfortunately, public perception and reality aren't often the same thing. He was perceived as a clumsy oaf, and I think that carried over into people's perceptions about his intelligence.

Not that he was a really good President, but then, he didn't have much time/opportunity to do much of anything.

Hoover

02-02-2005, 09:06 AM

Its too bad we live in a era that will not elect the best man for the job, but we will elect the best looking guy who can speak.

Coach

02-02-2005, 11:16 AM

Eh, I can't say much about the Ford Administration, since I never followed it well, but I remember my father discussing about the Ford Presidency to me one time. He said something like:

"It is believed that Ford's pardoning of Nixon, along with the continuing economic problems, cost him the election of 1976, even though the watergate issue wasn't concerned towards Ford.

His campaign may also have been hampered by a strong challenge that year for the nomination in the Republican party by Ronald Reagan. Additionally, Ford made a major gaffe during a television debate when he insisted that Eastern Europe was not dominated by the Soviets. On 30 October 1975, his refusal to sanction federal aid for the city of New York led The New York Daily News to paraphrase their perception of Ford's attitude in the headline "Ford to City: Drop Dead".

Infidel Goat

02-03-2005, 11:37 AM

....his SAT scores: 566 verbal and 640 math

According to many other documented articles and sites, his HS SAT Score was 1206; that translates into a 125-135 according to the conversion charts--this one says 129.

I think most people use these numbers to show that he didn't get into Yale on his own accord. Even after you renorm the SAT score, he still falls well below the middle 50% (25-75 percentile) of students at Yale. Right now, that middle 50% runs from 1380-1580 which means that 25% of Yale students scored 1580 or higher on their SAT! 99% of Yale students were in the top 10% of their HS class.

It's no wonder Bush was receiving a lot of gentleman C's while he was at Yale. He is reasonably bright, but he was surrounded by people who were far brighter.

The power of legacy admissions and money.

--Infidel Goat

Amnorix

02-03-2005, 11:55 AM

Its too bad we live in a era that will not elect the best man for the job, but we will elect the best looking guy who can speak.

I think Bush disproves that. His public speaking was abominable back in 2000.

Money is different, unfortunately, in my mind. A private school can only provide so much financial aid. Although college tuition is beyond insane, neither can one expect a college to have an admissions policy that will eventually lead to bankruptcy. If two students are otherwise entirely equal, but one requires financial aid from the school and another does not, I regrettably must say that I would not view it as invalid or detestable if the school admitted the kid who could afford the tuition. Frankly, to a degree, it's not that much different from any other service or product available for sale.

Cochise

02-03-2005, 12:13 PM

It's no wonder Bush was receiving a lot of gentleman C's while he was at Yale.

proof plz~

Cochise

02-03-2005, 12:15 PM

It really was bad. During his Presidency he basically withdrew into a shell and had limited contacted with people outside his own very tight inner circle.

He really was a man with many issues. And, in general, not a man to be admired.

I think his administration got some good things done, but he was someone who maybe couldn't deal with it all I suppose. The book makes the comment that he would sometimes say he 'never really felt too welcome in Washington'.

Amnorix

02-03-2005, 12:21 PM

I think his administration got some good things done, but he was someone who maybe couldn't deal with it all I suppose. The book makes the comment that he would sometimes say he 'never really felt too welcome in Washington'.

His administration did do some good things. Progress with the Soviets on nuclear arms limitations, good job with NASA and the space program, good job on China, etc.

But overall, because of how they handled themselves and the power they were granted, I'd have to say he was among the worst Presidents ever. He triggered the worst Constitutional crisis since the Civil War. Even his good friend and Supreme Court appointee, Chief Justice Warren Burger, had to rebuke him in order to get him to realize that it was time to go. Until then, it was delay, hide, avoid, and obfuscate until the bitter end.

Cochise

02-03-2005, 12:24 PM

Until then, it was delay, hide, avoid, and obfuscate until the bitter end.

Sounds familiar :hmmm:

:p

Mr. Kotter

02-03-2005, 12:30 PM

I think most people use these numbers to show that he didn't get into Yale on his own accord. Even after you renorm the SAT score, he still falls well below the middle 50% (25-75 percentile) of students at Yale. Right now, that middle 50% runs from 1380-1580 which means that 25% of Yale students scored 1580 or higher on their SAT! 99% of Yale students were in the top 10% of their HS class.

It's no wonder Bush was receiving a lot of gentleman C's while he was at Yale. He is reasonably bright, but he was surrounded by people who were far brighter.

The power of legacy admissions and money.

--Infidel Goat

My point is he is no idiot (still top 2.5% of U.S. population); as Amnorix has suggested, perhaps below the average of U.S. Presidents....but that hardly makes him "dumb" as his critics try to paint him.

That was my point.

go bowe

02-03-2005, 12:41 PM

I think most people use these numbers to show that he didn't get into Yale on his own accord. Even after you renorm the SAT score, he still falls well below the middle 50% (25-75 percentile) of students at Yale. Right now, that middle 50% runs from 1380-1580 which means that 25% of Yale students scored 1580 or higher on their SAT! 99% of Yale students were in the top 10% of their HS class.

It's no wonder Bush was receiving a lot of gentleman C's while he was at Yale. He is reasonably bright, but he was surrounded by people who were far brighter.

The power of legacy admissions and money.

--Infidel Goatthat 1380 - 1580, is that on a 1600 point scale?

and when bush was going to yale, the policy was much more slanted towards admitting children of alumni and children of people who donated large sums of money even if they weren't otherwise the most qualified...

i think that is still true but to a much lesser extent...

at yale law, in the early 70's, my lsat score of 746 (out of 800) was only average...

go bowe

02-03-2005, 12:43 PM

My point is he is no idiot (still top 2.5% of U.S. population); as Amnorix has suggested, perhaps below the average of U.S. Presidents....but that hardly makes him "dumb" as his critics try to paint him.

That was my point.personally, i don't think the president is dumb at all...

he just has a lot of quirky mannerisms that sometimes make him look dumb...

Baby Lee

02-03-2005, 02:02 PM

that 1380 - 1580, is that on a 1600 point scale?

and when bush was going to yale, the policy was much more slanted towards admitting children of alumni and children of people who donated large sums of money even if they weren't otherwise the most qualified...

i think that is still true but to a much lesser extent...

at yale law, in the early 70's, my lsat score of 746 (out of 800) was only average...
An 800 scale?
We had a 120-180 scale in '94. I had a 171, that placed me in the 96th percentile.
Got me acceptance at Wash-U, Tulane, Missouri and U-Mich, but ironically a denial at KU. Still haven't figured that one out, KU has the lowest standards of the set. Maybe I inadvertantly left a ton of curse words in my essay.

Lzen

02-03-2005, 02:44 PM

It's a general perception of liberals, IMO.

Speak with a southern accent - must be dumb.
Live in the Midwest - must be dumb.

SBK

02-03-2005, 02:46 PM

It's a general perception of liberals, IMO.

Speak with a southern accent - must be dumb.
Live in the Midwest - must be dumb.

Use logic instead of emotion to make a decision...must be dumb. :thumb:

picasso

02-03-2005, 04:01 PM

I'd rather have a guy who is smart enough to bring in good people to help (Regan/Bush) than think he can do it on his own.

You talk as though Bush is running the show...... I am sorry.
The guy is a pawn placed moron that delivers a speech in a series of direct, incomplete thoughts in one line sentences. He doesn't speak with enthusiasm, intellect, charisma or competence. It just so happens the title to this post is "Bush Isn't So Dumb After All...." . I am sure that this post topic has never been used to promote the intelligence of a president before and therefore I reward you no points and may god have mercy on your soul. :shake:

Baby Lee

02-03-2005, 04:04 PM

The guy is a pawn placed moron that delivers a speech in a series of direct, incomplete thoughts in one line sentences. He doesn't speak with enthusiasm, intellect, charisma or competence.
Somebody's missed a lot of great speeches. Lemme guess, you caught the Real World/Road Rules Marathon last night?

picasso

02-03-2005, 04:43 PM

Somebody's missed a lot of great speeches. Lemme guess, you caught the Real World/Road Rules Marathon last night?

Not quite a quip Baby Lee, more of a slope - so sad

The diversion:
QUOTE
"Now we need to focus on giving young people, especially young men in our cities, better options than apathy, or gangs, or jail. Tonight I propose a three-year initiative to help organizations keep young people out of gangs." – President Bush, 2/2/05

VERSUS
The White House has "proposed a 40 percent cut in federal juvenile justice and delinquency prevention funding, which supports anti-gang programs in communities across the country. That's on top of a 44 percent overall reduction in delinquency-fighting and anti-gang funds since 2002." – Fight Crime: Invest in Kids, 6/1/04

Oh theres more but not right now.

KCWolfman

02-03-2005, 04:59 PM

Not quite a quip Baby Lee, more of a slope - so sad

The diversion:
QUOTE
"Now we need to focus on giving young people, especially young men in our cities, better options than apathy, or gangs, or jail. Tonight I propose a three-year initiative to help organizations keep young people out of gangs." – President Bush, 2/2/05

VERSUS
The White House has "proposed a 40 percent cut in federal juvenile justice and delinquency prevention funding, which supports anti-gang programs in communities across the country. That's on top of a 44 percent overall reduction in delinquency-fighting and anti-gang funds since 2002." – Fight Crime: Invest in Kids, 6/1/04

Oh theres more but not right now.
You mean like Al Gore's quote on thanking the Cattlemen's Association for a great steak dinner after eating pork chops?

Or die-hard Red Sox fan, John Kerry's quote on Manny Ortez?

Or Ted Kennedy calling the slugger from St Louis, Mike McGuire?

Or "I voted for it before I voted against it"?

Or "President Clinton was often known as the first black president. I wouldn't be upset if I could earn the right to be the second"

Or laughing at GWB for falling off his bike only days before blaming a Secret Service agent for his own clumsiness?

Or "I don't own a SUV" only hours before being shown a copy of his pink slip with his name on it for an SUV?

Or "I don't want the Democrats to nominate me because I'm a charter member of one of the most selective but fastest growing sports clubs in the world: the NASCAR fans of Massachusetts"

Or "I am so addicted to ice hockey that I still fantasize about starting a professional over-fifty league"

Or "Today a car fueled by hydrogen costs up to a half million dollars" only moments before saying "My goal is to put 100,000 hydrogen-powered vehicles on the road by 2010 and 2.5 million by 2020"

The Gomer Pyle of the Democrat Party was the worst mistake since Michael Dukakis.

Infidel Goat

02-03-2005, 08:15 PM

proof plz~

Voila.

http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=2636

The most relevant tidbit:

"In his four years of enrollment here, Bush never got anything higher than an 88 -- Yale still had number grades back then -- and seemed more comfortable in the mid-70s, although he pulled a 69 in Astronomy. His cumulative average was a gentlemen's 77."

--Infidel Goat

KCWolfman

02-03-2005, 08:19 PM

Voila.

http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=2636

The most relevant tidbit:

"In his four years of enrollment here, Bush never got anything higher than an 88 -- Yale still had number grades back then -- and seemed more comfortable in the mid-70s, although he pulled a 69 in Astronomy. His cumulative average was a gentlemen's 77."