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Huh? Whats your point? Not all heterosexuals are against gay rights or gay marriage,just like all muslims aren't terrorists. All christians aren't against gay marriage and gay rights. I guess you mean only heterosexuals who are against gay rights and marriage. The reason I have heard most is, to change marriage from something other than male/female would destroy the institution of marriage,an institution that our civilization is based on. Now maybe that comes from a religious belief, I don't know, but we have discussed this at dinner with groups of people my age and my kids age and no one has said anything about God or Religion, but then most aren't against it.

No Joe, YOU try it. I take exception to this statement. Who is the phobe here? Speaking from a MAN who just stood in a GAY fucking marriage for two people I love dearly, and would do anything for......I take clear exception to this thread. Do you remember who was standing right next to your ass in Montreal? Huh?

Who is phobic of who? Most of my straight friends and family accept and love their brothers and sisters, most but not all, as there are for sure some ..ssholes who are hard to love. I'm not sure who you're surrounded by, but maybe you should expand your horizons, just a bit. I know some people who are narrow minded but they would never buy into this small view of the world, heterosexual, bi-sexual, homosexual whatever.I'm sorry and sad that you may feel that all 'heterosexual' people really think this way. Do you really believe this or is it just a tease ? I'm hoping it's a tease.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

I'm gonna go out on a limb here guys and submit that there might be more to this than we think. I think this is REALLY uncharacteristic of Joe. So before a good hemp rope with Joe's name on it is cast over the branch of the nearest poplar tree, maybe we should ask:

Is there something you need to tell us Joe? Has something happened?

You're not usually into laying what some might see as blatant flamebaits. You're much more constructive and complex than that.

I'm a bit disturbed by your statement too, however, if you were to ask me... I'd say it doesn't matter. I'm under the belief that if two people are in love, no matter what gender, I'm all for them tying the knot and having the same rights as heteros. I've had this conversation with many people I know from my old neighborhood in Brooklyn. Many of them never even mentioned God. I've found that nearly every woman I spoke to on this subject are all for it, and the men, well, they are not so forthcoming. The thing that bothers them most about same sex marriage is that it is not the "norm" of a man & woman exchanging vows, and changes of any kind makes people quite uneasy. Joe, Not all heteros are against same-sex marriage. So to ask "ANY" heterosexual this question, I think you will find that most people do accept gay rights & marriage. Perhaps, as Matty stated, something has transpired that stirred the pot for you. Is this so?

Trish

« Last Edit: August 31, 2006, 09:06:04 AM by Trish »

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"People grow through experience if they meet life honestly and courageously. This is how character is buit." Eleanor Roosevelt

I don't think Joe is saying all heteros are against gay marriage just the ones who are are brainwashed. If they read the bible they will find how perverted their heroes are-and why is god always going for foreskin?As for marriage being an institute Jack get real- the pharaohs married their sisters, Caligula married his horse, In Irish Celtic tradition you could divorce in February, Jerry Lee Lewis married his 13 year old cousin, John Mark Karr married a 13 year old, Muhammad married a 6 year old. His right hand man also married a child. In India children are forced into arranged marriages and many women are then forced into the domestic slavery for her in laws or are murdered.. Liz Taylor , and Cher married anyone that breathed. Liza married a gay guy. In Hollywood if you last a year it's headlines.The list goes on and on.

On tv there is a show where a guy picks a total stranger. In some cultures polygamy is legal. In the 18th century many people wed just before the kids were born. Institute right!Johnny

« Last Edit: August 31, 2006, 09:19:40 AM by alisenjafi »

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"You shut your mouthhow can you sayI go about things the wrong wayI am human and I need to be lovedjust like everybody else does"The Smiths

johny, as usual didn't read what I wrote. I was making no statement on marriage as an institution, I was saying that is the most prevalent reason I have heard from people who oppose gay marriage on why they oppose it.In addition I can think of almost no one i know personally who opposes it. Most of the people who I see who oppose it are talking heads on TV or radio.

Jack- I didn't mean my diatribe at you just the lame exscuse of institution. I would also like to ask these people then they must favor slavery or prostitution which are institutions as old if not older than marriage.Typing is definetly not the best way to add ones two cents in.I too find most people don't care, this is just a ploy by religious and political leaders to divide. After all I don't hear anyone promoting 99 cent gas!Johnny

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"You shut your mouthhow can you sayI go about things the wrong wayI am human and I need to be lovedjust like everybody else does"The Smiths

Hi Everyone,First let me start out by saying- I am married hetero woman, and I don't think there should be a ban on gay marriage. Two consenting adults who are in love should be allowed to marry, have children, live their lives together.

That all being said, I live in a pretty conservative area, and I do know family members, colleagues, people who I went to college with who do use the Bible and God as their reason why gay marriage should not be allowed. Santorum is our Senator...need I say more. (Who for the record I did not vote for, and hope that he looses this November.)

It is all very sad. When I hear people speak like this, I always use the same comment. Christ loved everyone, and was non-judgemental, and aren't we supposed to model our lives after him....

I don't think most heterosexuals are against gay marriage, but the ones that are (in my experience) do use the Bible as their reference.

Wow, paint me disappointed. For most of you who replied, you know me well enough that I would never slam an entire group of people and this is no different. SO SORRY, I worded this wrong, but thanks for giving me a taste of what some posters complain of when they get jumped on by forum members for a simple mistake.

I read this last night, and (to quote Matty) with nimble fingers began to reply, then I remembered sitting with Joe thinking it didn't make sense coming from him, reread the thread and decided that what he meant was any heterosexual against......NOT ANY heterosexual.

It took a reread on my part certainly...benefit of the doubt went a long way this time.

As I said in first reply to Joe, I thought he meant heters who were against gay rights and marriage(or maybe he was on qualudes). It did seem totally out of character,because you are always so reasonable. I still don't understand the point of the question. So what if the reason is God or religion based?

I'm glad you understood my "foot in mouth" moment and understood the question, so let me try and tell you why it matters that religion is involved. In the US our founding documents strictly prohibit the mingling of religion with legislating laws and so it is illegal to use religion as ANY basis for creating laws.

The whole point of this question is that there is no legal or moral reason to deny equal rights and marriage to gays, just our President, through his talks with "his god" all of his cronies, most Republicans and far too many Democrats.. It's very hard to reconcile how this country can be the savior to the world and even claim superiority in many respects, when it won't even extend equal rights to all of our citizens. The war waged against gays is based on religious dogma and fear and fear is birthed from ignorance.

Those who would deny me equal rights are unable to offer any realistic or sound arguments as to how that would be legal here, yet they continue to do so. My hope is that by challenging the views of half of Americans and hopefully other countries, gays can start to be viewed as just ordinary citizens. I don't want any special rights, I just want equal rights. Too many American gays ignore the fact that half of the voting population supports Republicans or that 11 states have passed ironclad laws against gay rights.

Equal rights are guaranteed to me by our Constitution and Bill of Rights. Instead, equal rights for gays will remain illegal here for at least the next 20 years, with the primary reason always based on religion.

It appears that most people cannot distinguish the civil (government) act of marriage, as opposed to a religion-sanctioned marriage. A religion is free to pick and choose its members and that is how is always should be. But religions are not the government, which has the responsibility to provide for the welfare of ALL OF ITS CITIZENS. Our Bill of Rights starts with "All men are created equal", not "All right-wing religious men are created equal". So until they change the founding documents, why won't they give me equal rights? The answer: religious dogma influencing laws against gays.

When you try and reconcile reality in America, with what our founding documents dictate, you can't do it and it is due to one reason: religion. In fact, if they are so concerned with "preserving" the sanctity of marriage, or that marriage is for procreation, then they should give fertility tests to all marriage applicants, because if you can't procreate, then you won't be preserving the sanctity of marriage. Maybe they could force the infertile to adopt children, prior to their marriage, that might work. Preserve the sanctity of marriage? Their kidding right? My answer to them ranges from Elizabeth Taylor and Mickey Rooney to Brittany Spears. I can't marry the man I have a life with, but Brittany can just piss a marriage away for 22 hours, until she tires of it. Rational reasoning against equal gay rights just does not work in America, but religion still does.

Endnote: Just so we are clear, I am not bashing any religion, no matter what their stance on gay rights, I am lambasting those in power who use religious dogma as reasons for their intolerance of gay citizens and as reasons for denying us equal rights.

Thank you so much for clarifying your thoughts. I thought I'd woken up in a parallel universe this morning!

And I proudly stand right next to you when you say "I am lambasting those in power who use religious dogma as reasons for their intolerance of gay citizens and as reasons for denying us equal rights." Well spoken - no foot in mouth there!

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Joe, well stated as usual and it's hard to understand how any reasonable person could disagree with your points, and that is your point. I have no idea what the solution is or if there is one.I really believe that most Americans agree with you,even though the party they vote for may not. If a Heterosexual person adds up everything he wants from a government,I am afraid equal rights for gays may be way down the line.Why isn't Barney raising holy hell? There is no more articulate and intelligent person in the government(even though I disagree with him on just about everything), maybe he should be raising hell as only he can.