JeffR wrote:Just wanted to pop by and ask directly where the lixy/bota/muffin man/lumpy/100meters/bradley/malignant canadians/ss and the 100% democratic voter (independent) cabal has been regarding Iraq.

Oh, if you can't bother to link, I'll paraphrase: Casualties down across the board.

Can't you understand that there were virtually no casualties up to your invasion? The best you can achieve now is getting back to that level, but that'll take a few more years at the minimum. Granted, Saddam is gone, but in the process you killed (directly and indirectly) people by the boatload. You alienated the locals as well as Arabs/Muslims across the world.

You are responsible for screwing up the country. Why do you expect roses when car bombs go down? Seriously.

lixy wrote:JeffR wrote:Just wanted to pop by and ask directly where the lixy/bota/muffin man/lumpy/100meters/bradley/malignant canadians/ss and the 100% democratic voter (independent) cabal has been regarding Iraq.

Oh, if you can't bother to link, I'll paraphrase: Casualties down across the board.

Can't you understand that there were virtually no casualties up to your invasion? The best you can achieve now is getting back to that level, but that'll take a few more years at the minimum. Granted, Saddam is gone, but in the process you killed (directly and indirectly) people by the boatload. You alienated the locals as well as Arabs/Muslims across the world.

You are responsible for screwing up the country. Why do you expect roses when car bombs go down? Seriously.

lixy,

Do you believe the things you type?

VIRTUALLY NO CASUALTIES?!?

Seriously, either you are so twisted in your self-delusions that you believe this tripe or your opinion of us is so low (we can't remember recent history) that you throw this crap out.

How many million killed as a direct result of saddam? How many maimings and rapes?

Would you rather die in the cause of freedom or because uday gets his rocks off watching you get shredded.

I'll give you my usual response: If you weren't so clumsy, you'd be dangerous.

JeffR wrote:Just wanted to pop by and ask directly where the lixy/bota/muffin man/lumpy/100meters/bradley/malignant canadians/ss and the 100% democratic voter (independent) cabal has been regarding Iraq.

LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:JeffR wrote:Just wanted to pop by and ask directly where the lixy/bota/muffin man/lumpy/100meters/bradley/malignant canadians/ss and the 100% democratic voter (independent) cabal has been regarding Iraq.

Then it was to liberate which was a completely asinine idea because we are not neo-colonialist nation builders.

Then it was to stop terrorism which (even given the current anecdotal evidence) is ludicrous. Terrorism never existed in Iraq.

There is a government in Iraq that should be solving Iraqi problems sans America.

The gist: we have no business there. Our business is to protect this country first which we cannot do when we have our troops killing other people and creating new hatred. I really don't understand why this concept isn't understood -- it's like we expect human nature to change overnight. Violence does not stop violence. There will always be someone who hates us and wants us dead no matter how much killing we do.

Then it was to liberate which was a completely asinine idea because we are not neo-colonialist nation builders.

Then it was to stop terrorism which (even given the current anecdotal evidence) is ludicrous. Terrorism never existed in Iraq.

There is a government in Iraq that should be solving Iraqi problems sans America.

The gist: we have no business there. Our business is to protect this country first which we cannot do when we have our troops killing other people and creating new hatred. I really don't understand why this concept isn't understood -- it's like we expect human nature to change overnight. Violence does not stop violence. There will always be someone who hates us and wants us dead no matter how much killing we do.

lifty,

Please remember that just because it's been explained from 2002 onward 1,000,000 times to you and you can't retain it, isn't the Administration's fault.

In fact, I've linked so many speeches that indicate what the goals were, that it makes my head swim.

If you doubt that there were many reasons and goals besides WMD, either look my posts up or google them.

By the way, the greatest bulwark against the lure of suicidal fanaticism is employment, hope, and education.

A) How do you know this just have to do with their being less people to kill?B) Obviously Iran isn't supplying them with more weapons and soldiers. That's one problem avoided.C) Ok, so we can set a date to leave now? I'm not even asking to start right away... lets say, we'll be gone in three years. That'd certainly pressure the government to get off their goddamn asses wouldn't it?

JeffR wrote:How many million killed as a direct result of saddam? How many maimings and rapes?

A lot. Way too many. But it's still no excuse for what you did to Iraq.

And just so that we're perfectly clear, most of the deaths as "a direct result of saddam" you speak of were in the war of aggression he launched on Iran. Not only did you support him in his monstrous endeavor, you were supplying him with the very means to kill. So don't come around preaching as if your hand were clean.

Would you rather die in the cause of freedom or because uday gets his rocks off watching you get shredded.

What Iraqis would rather die for is none of your business. It's not for you to decide.

lixy wrote:JeffR wrote:How many million killed as a direct result of saddam? How many maimings and rapes?

A lot. Way too many. But it's still no excuse for what you did to Iraq.

And just so that we're perfectly clear, most of the deaths as "a direct result of saddam" you speak of were in the war of aggression he launched on Iran. Not only did you support him in his monstrous endeavor, you were supplying him with the very means to kill. So don't come around preaching as if your hand were clean. ...

Bullshit. America supplied him with very little and for a short time during his war with Iran. Blame Russia and Europe.

See? Already you have been fooled. Even Putin said he told Bush Saddam had WMD's. And we did in fact find a large stockpile that Saddam specifically said was destroyed. But it is right that we didn't find very much. But there are reasons for that.

First Saddam was telling his allies that he had WMD's so he didn't look week in their eyes. Then he did in fact have WMD labs up and running. Many WMD's need to be produced right before use because they are more powerful that way.

Then it was to liberate which was a completely asinine idea because we are not neo-colonialist nation builders.

Who the hell said we attacked to liberate? I believe you are talking about the post war, when we stayed afterwards to help them recover.

Then it was to stop terrorism which (even given the current anecdotal evidence) is ludicrous. Terrorism never existed in Iraq.

Of course terrorism didn't exist there, but terrorists did. Terrorists do not attack their benefactor. Some of the anecdotal evidence was that Al-Qaeda was running out of money at one point, then after their meeting with Iraq, they were suddenly awash in it. Coincidence? I doubt it.

There is a government in Iraq that should be solving Iraqi problems sans America.

But there was no government there after the war. By staying and helping, we are doing humanitarian work. As well as helping keep them from being taken over by Iran. Besides, if we had left afterwards, you would be complaining about that. That we didn't stay around and help them. You know its true.

The gist: we have no business there. Our business is to protect this country first which we cannot do when we have our troops killing other people and creating new hatred. I really don't understand why this concept isn't understood -- it's like we expect human nature to change overnight. Violence does not stop violence. There will always be someone who hates us and wants us dead no matter how much killing we do.

So your belief is that we should just stick our heads into the sand, and ignore the people who have been calling for our destruction for decades? Yeah, that works.

Zap Branigan wrote:lixy wrote:JeffR wrote:How many million killed as a direct result of saddam? How many maimings and rapes?

A lot. Way too many. But it's still no excuse for what you did to Iraq.

And just so that we're perfectly clear, most of the deaths as "a direct result of saddam" you speak of were in the war of aggression he launched on Iran. Not only did you support him in his monstrous endeavor, you were supplying him with the very means to kill. So don't come around preaching as if your hand were clean. ...

Bullshit. America supplied him with very little and for a short time during his war with Iran. Blame Russia and Europe.

Zap, thank you. For one reason or another the US is singled out, when Russia and Europe dwarfed the US in supplying Saddam with Conventional weapons and dual-use/Wmd tech. I believe there's a Dutch report that breaks it down by nation. Perhaps, I'll try to find it again, later.

Zap Branigan wrote:Bullshit. America supplied him with very little and for a short time during his war with Iran. Blame Russia and Europe.

Walk me thru your logic, will you? Because Russia and Europe also supplied Saddam with weapons, it absolves the US?

I blame the millions of deaths on Saddam and every last one of his supporters. As for your "very little [..] for a short time", it's very relative. I don't consider what you did to be "very little" nor was it "for a short time". Read on.

United States support for Iraq during the Iran–Iraq War, against post-revolutionary Iran, included several billion dollars' worth of economic aid, the sale of dual-use technology, non-U.S. origin weaponry, military intelligence, Special Operations training, and direct involvement in warfare against Iran. Support from the U.S. for Iraq was not a secret and was frequently discussed in open session of the Senate and House of Representatives. On June 9, 1992, Ted Koppel reported on ABC's Nightline th...

The point is that you can't invoke Saddam's crimes to rationalize your own when you supported the monster throughout the worst atrocities.

Sloth wrote:Zap, thank you. For one reason or another the US is singled out, when Russia and Europe dwarfed the US in supplying Saddam with Conventional weapons and dual-use/Wmd tech.

Of course it's singled out, you moron! The US is the one that fucked up innocent Iraqis and turned the place into a terrorist safe haven. If it had been Russia or Europe behind that, then they'd be "singled out" and held accountable for their actions. Sheesh, use your brains once in a while people.

lixy wrote:Zap Branigan wrote:Bullshit. America supplied him with very little and for a short time during his war with Iran. Blame Russia and Europe.

Walk me thru your logic, will you? Because Russia and Europe also supplied Saddam with weapons, it absolves the US?

I blame the millions of deaths on Saddam and every last one of his supporters. As for your "very little [..] for a short time", it's very relative. I don't consider what you did to be "very little" nor was it "for a short time". Read on.

United States support for Iraq during the Iran–Iraq War, against post-revolutionary Iran, included several billion dollars' worth of economic aid, the sale of dual-use technology, non-U.S. origin weaponry, military intelligence, Special Operations training, and direct involvement in warfare against Iran. Support from the U.S. for Iraq was not a secret and was frequently discussed in open session of the Senate and House of Representatives. On June 9, 1992, Ted Koppel reported on ABC's Nightline th...

The point is that you can't invoke Saddam's crimes to rationalize your own when you supported the monster throughout the worst atrocities.

Why not? You play apologist for the brutality of Palestinian terrorists constantly. You sit here in denial of just how rotten a large chunk of Islam has become. Oh, yes Lixy, you rationalize away a shit load of brutality on these forums. When I called out the insurgency for using civilian populations as human shields, you predictably played apologist. To paraphrase, "What are they supposed to do?! Fight you in the open!" Yeah, fuck the populace when it comes to the guys you're rooting for, right Lixy?

Drop the pacifist act. You may not do the fighting, but you put in your support for a side in all this. It's all too plain with your constant justifications for the enemy of my country. We're on different sides of this war, and I hope to see your "legitimate resistance (market bombers)" crushed, and those working with the US win (like the awakening movement).

We may have sold that Saddam bastard weapons in the past, but today you're the asshole wishing his mass murdering tyrannical regime hadn't fallen.

You're the delusional one who claims sectarian Islamists and Al Qaeda would allow a democratic Iraq to exist post-Saddam. That's absolutely stupid. They'd market bomb, bus bomb, and death-Squad until the people of Iraq were broken. Till they accepted the yoke of the totalitarian Islamic regime. Which by the way is exactly what the Awakening movement came to realize, and now they're working directly with the US to put down your "legitimate resistance." You'll deny it, so as to not look like a total ass, but you consider them traitors. With the crap you talk about the US, there's no way you could believably claim otherwise.

lixy wrote:Sloth wrote:Zap, thank you. For one reason or another the US is singled out, when Russia and Europe dwarfed the US in supplying Saddam with Conventional weapons and dual-use/Wmd tech.

Of course it's singled out, you moron! The US is the one that fucked up innocent Iraqis and turned the place into a terrorist safe haven. If it had been Russia or Europe behind that, then they'd be "singled out" and held accountable for their actions. Sheesh, use your brains once in a while people.

No, Saddam fucked up innocent Iraqis. And post-war, your market bombing legitimate resistance. You know, the one's that attack power and water projects the US continues to rebuild. The ones that destroy the girl's schools the US builds. The one's that fight from health clinics the US has built and supplied. Muslims Lixy, your brothers, "fucked up" Iraq. Deep down you know it, and it really pisses you off.

If it wasn't for your "resistance" the Iraqi security forces would have been sufficient long ago. Admit it, Lixy, Muslims turned Iraq into a post-war hell-hole. Fighting over their petty little muslim sectarian bullshit. Killing the christian minority. Assassinating ELECTED officials. M-U-S-L-I-M-S. Your misunderstood and victimized brethren.

Your "legitimate resistance" caused the ELECTED government to ask for continued US presence. Your legitimate resistance caused the Awakening movement to ally itself with us, against your side. Today, right now, you're the one who would leave to them to the mercy of your resistance. You're a fool and a fake. You're the apologists for market bombers, bus bombers, and those that use civilians as meat shields in general. So, don't even start with the righteous indignation.