As a Jets fan, I am very upset about Volmer being a patriot, and wasn't Matt Light one of the better LTs in the league a few seasons ago? What happened?

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Originally Posted by Diehard

I don't think his vision is a problem. I just don't think he's used to having 2-3 defensive players roaming the backfield immediately after the handoff. It is hard to express how truely ****** the interior OL play was this year. That isn't exactly going to put a rookie in a position to succeed.

To be fair, though, Knowshon would've really benefited from a full TC this year. He wasn't familiar enough with the system and definitely could've used the conditioning as he definitely wore down toward the end of the season.

Overall, the run game was in chaos this year. With a new interior OL and a new OL coach who is on the same wavelength as the HC (Dennision is gone for sure), I expect we'll see more consistency in 2010.

Back to the thread title, I don't see how he could be one of the biggest disappointments - 900+ rushing, 200+ passing and 9 TD's. Seems like a decent rookie season considering the issues outlined above.

To be honest, from the 5 or 6 Denver games Ive seen this year, Moreno didn't impress me in any of them. Buckhalter looked significantly better running the ball.

And while the oline wasn't the best, its not like they blocked any different for Buck, or ran any different style of run plays for Buck. It was the same style of run plays, Buck was just better at it than Moreno.

Like I said before, Moreno just doesn't seem like a great back to me. He can be good, but he's nothing special. Definitely not a top 12 guy. There are a lot of RBs with Moreno's skill set. If you're a top 12 pick, you need to be more than just a solid RB. And I don't know if Moreno will ever be more than that.

i think he's been thoroughly average for at least 4 years, and has just degraded entirely the last two. i think he was largely unexposed for a while, given that people blitzed the pats so rarely, and when he was facing 3 or 4 man rushes, he was competent.

to be fair, i don't think brady moves in the pocket as well now (and i think cassel really didn't last year) and that's probably making him look a bit worse.

thats very true. Brady used to have the best pocket presence in football. his movements in the pocket were amazing. now, he's just another guy back there in terms of pocket presence.

maybe he'll bounce back next year, but Brady definitely didn't move the same in the pocket this year.

As a Jets fan, I am very upset about Vollmer being a patriot, and wasn't Matt Light one of the better LTs in the league a few seasons ago? What happened?

I probably haven't seen more than 10 Patriot games in the last 2 years so take this with a grain of salt but I have always noticed Light getting away with a ridiculous amount of holding. Maybe that stuff got cut out of his game and we have the results now. Or he just degraded a little, it's the NFL and it happens.

You'd think a guy that has been around this long would know better then to dismiss players after a poor rookie season.

There should be no hindsight used yet...... the rookies that were successful this season were put in very good situations to succeed, for example just because Mark Sanchez had a decent rookie season doesn't mean teams like the Chiefs should of drafted them.

If were gonna have a disapointment draft pick thread it should be from a minimum of 2 years ago, lets talk about the 06 or 07 draft now... and the 09 draft in 11'

but you'll be hard-pressed to find an offense as good as the pats' was two yeas ago. They were amazing.

Yes, but that was also two seasons ago. Teams age very quickly in the NFL and the Patriots have gotten old, quickly. If anything, the 08 season was the "last chance" before the window closed - so to speak, and I think Belichick knows this. There probably isn't a better coach we've seen in sacrificing the short term success for the long term success. We've already seen a youth movement on defense over the past few years, culminating with the trade of Seymour right before the opener. Short term it hurt them, but I think we'll see a lot of growth from them on defense in the next few seasons. I think you'll see them start turning their attention to the offense now and getting some quality young guys in there to start developing.

I know what you mean, I'm disgusted that Mangini traded the pick to the Jets when we could have had one of the better QB's to come along in awhile.

You know he would not have worked out on the Browns. He had an up and down struggle all year with the best running attack and defense in the entire NFL. The Browns can't match that kind of supporting cast, and Sanchez would have been Tim Couch-ed/David Carr-ed, never to be able to stare down the barrel of a blitz ever again. A shell of a quarterback. Forever an empty husk, wandering from team to team in search of salvaging his once promising career. :)

We've already seen a youth movement on defense over the past few years, culminating with the trade of Seymour right before the opener. Short term it hurt them, but I think we'll see a lot of growth from them on defense in the next few seasons. I think you'll see them start turning their attention to the offense now and getting some quality young guys in there to start developing.

Don't the Pats have 2 firsts and 3 seconds? As far as rebuilding ammo goes you can't ask for more. They have known this day has been coming for a while now and will be back with a vengeance soon enough, maybe as early as next year depending on rookie production.

Don't the Pats have 2 firsts and 3 seconds? As far as rebuilding ammo goes you can't ask for more. They have known this day has been coming for a while now and will be back with a vengeance soon enough, maybe as early as next year depending on rookie production.

Yes, but that was also two seasons ago. Teams age very quickly in the NFL and the Patriots have gotten old, quickly. If anything, the 08 season was the "last chance" before the window closed - so to speak, and I think Belichick knows this. There probably isn't a better coach we've seen in sacrificing the short term success for the long term success. We've already seen a youth movement on defense over the past few years, culminating with the trade of Seymour right before the opener. Short term it hurt them, but I think we'll see a lot of growth from them on defense in the next few seasons. I think you'll see them start turning their attention to the offense now and getting some quality young guys in there to start developing.

absolutely. Now it's going to be a question of how the overhaul is going to work out and who they're gonna replace (long-term anyway) Brady with.

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Don't the Pats have 2 firsts and 3 seconds? As far as rebuilding ammo goes you can't ask for more. They have known this day has been coming for a while now and will be back with a vengeance soon enough, maybe as early as next year depending on rookie production.

Oh well, maybe they'll blow one of those picks on a short CB who can't cover or return kicks, another on a runningback who doesn't know how to play football, and another on a pure 4-3 DE who has no hope in the 3-4 despite their insistence to put him there. There is still hope for the rest of the NFL.

Oh well, maybe they'll blow one of those picks on a short CB who can't cover or return kicks, another on a runningback who doesn't know how to play football, and another on a pure 4-3 DE who has no hope in the 3-4 despite their insistence to put him there. There is still hope for the rest of the NFL.

hm, intriguing notion but odds are very low they'll trade their franchise QB.

Too early to write off Smith or Ayers, CB and pass rusher are basically the most developmental type picks a defense can have, historically speaking. Moreno, well any RB is fighting an uphill battle with Kyle Orton at QB. Way too early to write any of these guys off, although I'm crossing my fingers.

blech. i mean, cutler was no prize this year either, but we completely wasted every one of our picks.

i expected us to at least touch the front seven. looks like xanders has about as much of a clue as shanny did in april.

how many broncos games, exactly, did you watch? seriously. if you're just going to post "zomg statz0rz" or something equally asinine, this is not a conversation worth having. if you actually watched him, here's what you would've seen:

a) the slowest back to hit the line in the nfl, period. holes would open, close, and orton would be running the next play before moreno got anywhere near the line.
b) utterly no vision whatsoever. as i posted earlier, moreno couldn't find or hit the hole if laurence maroney pointed it out to him. and pats fans know what that means.
c) no ability at all to EVER break a tackle or make the first guy miss. you hit him in the hole? he went down. you got a clean look at him coming through the hole? he probably went down. you were within 5 yards of the hole? he went down.

and that's without even bothering to think about this.

no, he failed to show anything to give anyone anywhere any hope whatsoever that he can be effective out of the backfield.

neither did chris perry, william green, tj duckett, ron dayne or trung canidate. i can do this all day and i guarantee i can come up with more names than you can.

yes, let's compare moreno to fricking chris johnson. ****ing brilliant. did you actually think about what a horrifically idiotic argument that was, or did you just puke it out, hoping no one else would notice the smell? have you ever seen EITHER of them play football?

which were, clearly, none. but in case anyone who actually did watch is reading, yes, the interior o-line was pathetic. which has NOTHING to do with why i think moreno is a worthless pile of crap. what's more, when we're talking about disappointing draft picks, it's pretty ****ing disappointing to pick a guy 12th, and have him perform at a significantly lower level than some of the UDFA guys we've brought in over the last decade.

probably.

To be fair we are running a COMPLETLY different scheme this year...and thats the problem we have an Oline that was set up to zone block...and guess what McDaniels isnt running any zone blocking for the most part

DHB was on my list because I am disappointed that Louis Murphy outperformed him so soundly. They both had the same offensive system and QBs to deal with and Murphy didn't have any more experience in a route tree at Florida than DHB had in Maryland. It definitely didn't help that on the few occasions that DHB had to make an impact he would have drops. Disappointing.

Louis' hands were just as questionable as DHB's until Bruce took over,and DHB was hurt for the majority of that point.

Please keep in mind, I love DHB,but he completely impressed me in that Jets game. After seeing Revis shut down the best in the game,then watching DHB get such consistently great separation on him,I will remain patient,because he can be one of the best in the game IMO.

I saw a few Bengals games with him at RT. He actually looked really good to me.

He just moves people and I was very surprised with his ability to get to the next level and block out in space. His pass pro was also very sharp but because of his off the field problems this gets overshadowed. Given what happened to him earlier in the year, I am actually happy with how he ended up doing.

In fact, I'm pretty impressed with many of the rookies we drafted this year including Rey Maualuga, Micheal Johnson, Bernard Scott, Kevin Huber, and Quan Cosby. They all made some nice contributions to this team in their first season. I'm gonna go ahead and give Chase Coffman a mulligan as he has been hurt all year and he had plenty of work to do on his blocking.

to be more fair, we didn't have a guard who could block in any scheme this year, and the loss of harris was almost literally catastrophic.

that said, there were holes. as mentioned, buckhalter was certainly finding them.

I dont think this a very fair comparison.

Bucks number were fantastic in his first 10 carries (5.8 ypc) and hopeless after that (2.4 ypc). There are plenty of fast backs that can do this. Moreno doesnt have the speed that Buck has to get to the outside, where many of Bucks big plays came from (where he has the tackles and Daniel Graham blocking for him, rather than the guards). Knowshon was asked to do more than Buck. He averaged about 4.5 yards in our half, which is okay. His stats were killed when we were in the oppositions half, more specifically in the red zone where he had 50 carries for 120 yards. Buck was almost as bad in the redzone as Moreno, just with less carries. This is hugely due to the useless interior o-line play, not just the backs. There is a prevailing opinion that McDaniels hurt Moreno by filling his head with too much of the complex playbook ****, rather than just letting him go out there and run instinctively. Yes, Moreno was disappointing, but I am still holding out some hope in the future that he can be an effective back in the NFL.

Completely disagree. I understand your point- they win despite him. That's fine, my rebuttal is always- what do you want him to do- that's the hand he was dealt and he's now one of the eight QBs left standing. You can play the what if game all day but it always comes down to what is. Sanchez has a great D and running game and just played the best game of his career. Indisputable facts.

And what tape will opposing defenses have? The Jets do everything they can to mask Sanchez's youth and impatience. For his own personal growth as a player, he would be much better off on a team that wasn't winning right now because he'd be able to explore the art of NFL quarterbacking. Now he's contending for a title, not feeling out the new league.

I mean you can be pessimistic if you want, but about 95% of guys who look like this THIS early in their careers + have a good head on their shoulders/work ethic end up getting better.

And quickly, your point about adversity... Sanchez has felt a lot of HUGE downs this year and dealt with them great. He threw like five picks against the Bills. The Falcons game his own coach said they were done and he led them to like 7 points. Sanchez has shown some resilience already in his young career because, ask any Jet fan, this year has been a crazy roller coaster.

I should have stated more clearly my case as my feelings towards Sanchez.

I am a Browns fan and have had to deal with many many Browns fans complain about us not taking Sanchez with the #5 pick, where we ended up trading that pick so the Jets could take him.

Too many people are stating "Oh, he went 9-7 and made the playoffs, we missed out". Not the case in alot of eyes.

He went to right team: Established running game, Good defense. Able to "dumb" it down if need be. The film I was talking about, Sanchez started the year extremely well, after a few weeks defenses were able to force Sanchez into situations that exposed his weaknesses.

I want to see him go through adversity. The running game struggles for the entire season due to injury, defense is exposed and the game is forced on Sanchez.

As a Browns fan, that's where my "dislike" is from if you want to call it that. I do dislike him. He came from a top college program where he had little experience (I believe he's already played more NFL games than he did his college career). Way too risky for a team like the Browns to risk a #5 pick when so much else is needed, I'm very happy we traded and took Alex Mack.

For what I had to listen to about how Great Sanchez was this year with his 9-7 record. His stats are not great and he had a running game and a defense to have his back. He's a disappointment for the hype that too many (Browns fans in particular) put on this kid.

Sorry, this probably sounds to much like a rant and got off-topic. I apologize, but I wanted to express why my feelings towards Sanchez are, as is.

I should have stated more clearly my case as my feelings towards Sanchez.

I am a Browns fan and have had to deal with many many Browns fans complain about us not taking Sanchez with the #5 pick, where we ended up trading that pick so the Jets could take him.

Too many people are stating "Oh, he went 9-7 and made the playoffs, we missed out". Not the case in alot of eyes.

He went to right team: Established running game, Good defense. Able to "dumb" it down if need be. The film I was talking about, Sanchez started the year extremely well, after a few weeks defenses were able to force Sanchez into situations that exposed his weaknesses.

I want to see him go through adversity. The running game struggles for the entire season due to injury, defense is exposed and the game is forced on Sanchez.

As a Browns fan, that's where my "dislike" is from if you want to call it that. I do dislike him. He came from a top college program where he had little experience (I believe he's already played more NFL games than he did his college career). Way too risky for a team like the Browns to risk a #5 pick when so much else is needed, I'm very happy we traded and took Alex Mack.

For what I had to listen to about how Great Sanchez was this year with his 9-7 record. His stats are not great and he had a running game and a defense to have his back. He's a disappointment for the hype that too many (Browns fans in particular) put on this kid.

Sorry, this probably sounds to much like a rant and got off-topic. I apologize, but I wanted to express why my feelings towards Sanchez are, as is.

Back to topic

Brian Robiskie and David Veikune

No worries...Browns had so many issues that you really can't blame them for taking advantage of their high pick by trading back and subsequently stocking up. Mack, Joe Thomas, and forgive me I can't recall his name but they also have a young guard I really like: I have long thought the surest way to NFL success is to build up a dominant O-line and the Browns are obviously on board with this concept as well.

Why is he struggling? Not adjusting to scheme? Physical incapability? Something else?

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I can't recall his name but they also have a young guard I really like:

Eric Steinbach. He isn't exactly young (29) but he is good.

Mack was a great pick, and he was awesome the 2nd half of the season. But Robo struggled to get playing time, and Veikune did nothing. Massaquoi looks like he can be a #2, but I don't see anything more than that.

Let's hope Holmgren/Heckert can do a better job than Mangini did.

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