These have just cleared QA and I've appended them to yesterday's WDA. :)

Other

NEW - The metamagic system in Dungeons and Dragons Online has undergone significant changes in Module 5.0: Accursed Ascension.

The biggest change that casters will discover is that each metamagic feat other than Heighten Spell now has a fixed spell point cost increase rather than multiplying the spell point cost of a spell as they did before Module 5.0. These surcharges are as follows:

Improved Metamagic enhancements have all been changed to flat cost reductions on these surcharges. Sorcerer Improved Maximizing III, for instance, has become "Using the Maximize Spell feat costs you 9 fewer spell points." Wizard Improved Heightening II is now "Using the Heighten Spell feat costs you 2 fewer spell points per level of heightening."

Discuss...

redoubt

07-31-2007, 05:15 PM

Seems a mixed back at first glance.

Lets see:

MM is a 10sp spell right? Old way maximise was 30sp, now 35.
Firewall I think is 25. Old way is 75 and new is 50...
Disentigrate is 35. Old: 105, new 60... wow.

Just don't max MM and kill everything! :D

Now, I'm not sure if -9sp is worth taking all 3 enhancements in impr max. If it turns out to be -9 for each level of it, the it would be a very righteous enchancement, though I highly doubt it would be that good.

'Course for charmers nothing has changed... Heighten away. I just hope the cost of the charms w/improved heighten is not going up.

One thing that worries me though... what in fernia are they adding to the game that they are allowing us this much more firepower???

blaten22

07-31-2007, 07:34 PM

Seems a mixed back at first glance.

Lets see:

MM is a 10sp spell right? Old way maximise was 30sp, now 35.
Firewall I think is 25. Old way is 75 and new is 50...
Disentigrate is 35. Old: 105, new 60... wow.

Just don't max MM and kill everything! :D

Now, I'm not sure if -9sp is worth taking all 3 enhancements in impr max. If it turns out to be -9 for each level of it, the it would be a very righteous enchancement, though I highly doubt it would be that good.

'Course for charmers nothing has changed... Heighten away. I just hope the cost of the charms w/improved heighten is not going up.

One thing that worries me though... what in fernia are they adding to the game that they are allowing us this much more firepower???

Thats easy *just pulling out of my hat of opinions* Look at the 2 spells you just mention'ed.

Firewall, Disentigrate...Undead...Deadly combo in the right hands. Have feeling with this new content coming out lightning spec casters will see some love as well. Know with some undead in the game lightning is very effecitve against them.

Again just my 2cp...continue with the discussion :P

Alavatar

07-31-2007, 08:16 PM

It also looks like Extended L1 and L2 spells will cost more, Extended L3 spells will be the same, and L4 and up will have an increasing discount.

Now, that old Max+Emp+Ext Wall of Fire that cost 113 SP will only cost 75 SP.

At least they made Eschew Materials a little more useful.

redoubt

07-31-2007, 08:31 PM

doh... meant to start new thread... :(

jkm

07-31-2007, 08:44 PM

wow, they normally don't want to hurt low level casters, but it looks like the new system does that in spades. in a way, i guess it makes sense as the higher level you are the more control you would have over the process, but still. seems they'd revisit the AoE spells to be similar.

DemonMage

07-31-2007, 09:02 PM

Most low level casters aren't going to be using much metamagic, except maybe Extend, which hurts a lot on 1st level spells, very little on 2nd, and is same/better beyond that. They probably should change it, but we'll see.

from a buff standpoint this is a nerf since most of the useful buff spells at high levels are 1st and 2nd level. about the only buff spell that gains a huge benefit is greater hero.

from an offensive perspective, it decreases the spell cost of a ton of length based spells (firewall, ck, hold monster, mass hold person, charms, symbols, fire shield). so in that case this is a massive boon for the offensive caster.

i think the error is that maximize should be 30 spell points instead of 25 (2x empower).

Aspenor

08-02-2007, 12:10 PM

I think it's PEERRRRRRRFECT!!!!

/maniacal laughter and wringing of hands

jkm

08-02-2007, 12:26 PM

with it being 25 instead of 30, the enhancements for maximize pay off a ton, especially if you've pulled a +3 cha tome and have that extra 6 points to bring it down to 16 points (a maximized fireball for 36 spell points? wow). heck, it might even be worth dropping the top level of dragonblood for it.

Tallyn

08-02-2007, 12:28 PM

i think the error is that maximize should be 30 spell points instead of 25 (2x empower).

Hmm, no, what they are doing is bringing the spells in line with PnP kind of. Check it out

Pen and Paper
Empower Spell: uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level
Enlarge Spell: uses up a spell slot one levels higher than the spell’s actual level
Extend Spell: uses up a spell slot one levels highe than the spell’s actual level
Maximize Spell: uses up a spell slot four levels higher than the spell’s actual level

I'm going off base SRD here, so not sure how much empower healing ups the level of a spell, but I'm guessing it is one level.

They decreased the cost of quicken spell from pen and paper, since it is of much less benefit in DDO than it is in PnP. And they added a small cost to eschew materials. Unless it works for all materials components including the non standard more expensive ones, I'm not sure why they added the small sp cost, I consider a feat enough of a cost for eschew to work

Deragoth

08-02-2007, 01:09 PM

Now that you mention it, Tallyn, I think you nailed it. Good eye.

jkm

08-02-2007, 02:08 PM

Hmm, no, what they are doing is bringing the spells in line with PnP kind of. Check it out

Pen and Paper
Empower Spell: uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level
Enlarge Spell: uses up a spell slot one levels higher than the spell’s actual level
Extend Spell: uses up a spell slot one levels highe than the spell’s actual level
Maximize Spell: uses up a spell slot four levels higher than the spell’s actual level

I'm going off base SRD here, so not sure how much empower healing ups the level of a spell, but I'm guessing it is one level.

They decreased the cost of quicken spell from pen and paper, since it is of much less benefit in DDO than it is in PnP. And they added a small cost to eschew materials. Unless it works for all materials components including the non standard more expensive ones, I'm not sure why they added the small sp cost, I consider a feat enough of a cost for eschew to work

the problem is that initial +5, it generates some serious efficiencies for maximize over empower. if you are only going to take one, before empower was more mana efficient, now maximize is more efficient by a huge margin.

Going from a level 1 spell to a level 2 spell in reality should be +5 SP. However I guess for balance purposes (maybe?) they opted to tack on addition 5 SP cost. Also if they had stayed with the 4 levels for quicken spell as in PNP it would have been useless. As it is, I still dont see anyone taking Quicken Spell. I'm not sure I know anyone that has taken Eschew materials either.

Borror0

08-02-2007, 03:23 PM

I think that the additionnal +5 SP comes the fact that using Metamagics feats are less costy in DDO than in PnP. In DDO you can Empower+Maximise a level 7 spell, which you couldn't in PnP. Also, if you do Maximise a Fireball in PnP, you loose one level 7 spell, which you don't in DDO.

Is that clear, I suck at explanation today. :p

redoubt

08-02-2007, 09:30 PM

For those interested, the enhancement modifications are:

Enlarge, Quicken, Empower Healing
-1, -2, -4

Empower
-2, -4, -6

Maximize:
-3, -6, -9

Heighten: There are only 2 levels on enhancement currently and it costs 4 and 6 AP
-1/level of addition, -2/level of addition
For those inquiring minds that wanted to know.

with the new system there is no point in NOT using maximize and empower at higher levels. It would cost more SP to cast 2 level 5 damage spells than to use 1 level 5 spell with maximize. Is this good or bad? I guess this really helps nukers. In some ways I think DDO is trying to even out the abilities of Casters VS Melee, but they have gone overboard. Melee are getting left behind. With all the high level spells, well built melee is no longer high priority in many of the quests (like POP).

well the only problem is that currently metamagic discounts only affect the base cost of spells. thus they were pretty much useless (i did take 2 heighten levels). so a 25 point pk with 3 levels was actually only a 5 point discount instead of 4 (it was 36 instead of 34).

Deragoth

08-03-2007, 10:27 AM

with the new system there is no point in NOT using maximize and empower at higher levels. It would cost more SP to cast 2 level 5 damage spells than to use 1 level 5 spell with maximize. Is this good or bad? I guess this really helps nukers. In some ways I think DDO is trying to even out the abilities of Casters VS Melee, but they have gone overboard. Melee are getting left behind. With all the high level spells, well built melee is no longer high priority in many of the quests (like POP).

I don't think melee classes are being left behind. My kopesh weilding fighter with a 32 STR hits very hard. Back up if I turn on power attack and grab a Greater bane greataxe. Sure, sometimes it turns into guard duty and aggro management at L14... But it's like that in PnP too.

Tallyn

08-27-2007, 03:26 PM

Pardon me for Necroing a few week old thread, but I just looked at the PHB and Maximize is a modification of 3 spell levels so, to keep it in line with PNP the DDO SP modification should be +20 SP. Of course, they may have already taken this into account and decided maximizes power warranted the increased SP cost of +25.

Shade

08-28-2007, 10:08 AM

Pardon me for Necroing a few week old thread, but I just looked at the PHB and Maximize is a modification of 3 spell levels so, to keep it in line with PNP the DDO SP modification should be +20 SP. Of course, they may have already taken this into account and decided maximizes power warranted the increased SP cost of +25.

Ya think?

Maximize isn't even close to the same in PnP as in DDO. If it was no one would even consider taking it, empower would be king.

Hell everyone automatically gets 50% of the benefit of mazimize (pnp version) for free without taking the feat in DDO.

ErgonomicCat

08-28-2007, 10:45 AM

Edit:

Nothing to see here. Realized I hadn't read page two.

Where's my coffee?

lherndo

08-30-2007, 07:58 AM

This means a whole SLEW of the new monsters (and maybe some of the old ones) are going to have all of those hated immunities that we saw in Madstone and Gianthold Tor.:mad:

Shade

08-31-2007, 09:32 AM

This means a whole SLEW of the new monsters (and maybe some of the old ones) are going to have all of those hated immunities that we saw in Madstone and Gianthold Tor.:mad:
Oh no?

Er madstone mobs aren't imune to very much, nothing important comes to mind.

Tor giants have deathward.. Big deal, everything else still works. I run with deathward on 99% of the time, mobs should figure its a good idea by now too.