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Updated on
December 22, 2008,
K.R.
asks from
Steubenville, OH
on
December 18, 2008

Paying Child Support and Rights to See Son.

Ok, I have been asked my my brother if the mother of his child has the right to deny him the right to see his son. He is current with his child support and even goes above and beyond what was asked of him. He gave the mother a car in his name to make sure she had a reliable way to transport his son to the Dr. and get to the store and where ever else she needed for the baby. But the agreement was also that she would bring the baby to visit him at the very least every other weekend. My nephew just turned a year old. And she refused to bring his son to see him on the weekend before his b-day or even allow him near her parents home to see his son. Now she is refusing him the right to have Christmas with his son. Last year while they were still together he didn't spend the babies first Christmas together b/c she went to her parents home. As she did each holiday. So my brother has YET to see his son an any holiday. He is a good dad and does what he needs to do.
I guess my question is what can he do to see his son? There is no court documents saying he has no right to see his son, she doesn't have full custody. He said all she was given was residential custody for the child support, that she went though welfare to get from him. They have never been to court.
On the rare occasions she does bring the baby to see his father she never brings him any diapers except 1-2 for the 3 hr drive and just enough formula for the trip as well. So then my brother has to rush out to get diapers and formula and usual clothes for his son. And he can't tell her she can't take them home on her return trip b/c he doesn't wanna neglect his son. Any suggestions on what he should do?

So What Happened?™

I just wanted to thank everyone for such great advice. I have passed along a lot of the information to my brother. As to what he does is up to him. As the old saying goes: You can lead a horse to the stream but you can't make it drink from the stream. I am going to talk to my parents and suggest that they file for visitation rights as well. I hope something can be resolved in court to make it a greater outcome for both my brother and his son. On a side note, she kept him from being with his son for Christmas and the new year. And I haven't seen my nephew for almost a year. So I too miss him dearly.

Featured Answers

C.S.
answers from
Cleveland
on
December 19, 2008

Get a lawyer and get some legal document in place. If he can't afford a lawyer, contact the local legal aid department and see if he can get help. There is no reason for her to be so controlling.

I think he needs to get a lawyer and be aggressive with regards to his rights to see his son. The mother sounds a little unstable, is she? Anyways he needs a lawyer and he needs to make it all legal with regards to his visitation and rights.

More Answers

J.L.
answers from
Toledo
on
December 19, 2008

He could be a father who doesn't pay child support and still have visitation. Child support has nothing to do with visitation. Are they divorced? Also if she is the residential guardian of the child, he is the non residential guardian, which means he should be granted visitation, which there is a schedule in the Toledo Bar Assoc. Bar book (i t have gone thru this all first hand). It states that like even/off years who gets what holiday. Almost like every other one.

IF they have a divorce and the guardianship of the child was established in court, then he needs to file a motion to show cause and hold her in contempt of court for failure to allow him proper visitation. This is a form you to go to the court house (is he in lucas county) Family court, fill it out, pay the fee and get a date. I think that the fee is like $150 since there is a minor child involved.

I would also recommend an attorney, although normally you meet with a magistrate and this sounds like a pretty simple case. My ex abondanded my son and he took me to court after almost 2 years and I represented myself. Basically they asked me why I withheld the child and they asked the father why he didn't come around for 2 years. I can recommend one if you want to send me a personal message. I had a great one for my divorce and other things we went to court for. He is very reasonable priced and looks out for the well being of the child.

IF they have JOINT LEGAL CUSTODY.....he has EVERY RIGHT to see his son within what the guidelines say. If it says he gets him on odd number years on his birthday, etc. then that's what should happen. If she does NOT comply, he needs to be filing contempt charges. We've been doing this for almost two years now. As a result of filing the charges, he's getting to see her more because legally, he's supposed to any way.

If he does NOT get what he's supposed to get, he just reminds her, shows her the pages in the guidelines and highlights (she does NOT read it on her own and could care less about what it says because she thinks she can make the rules). If she doesn't comply, he files charges. The courts HATE this and so do the attorneys. If a judge sees that she is NOT abiding by the guidelines and the father is making a huge effort to see & provide for the child, this looks bad on her part and that she's not doing what's in the child's best interest OR abiding by the guidelines set by the court. We are in a battle for full custody. You can tell, after almost a year and a half that the mother is now scared of losing her daughter because she's lied so many times and done what SHE wanted, refused to abide by the guidelines and not allow her daughter to be with her dad when she is supposed to or wants to. She's made up her own rules and now it's coming back to haunt her.

They have joint legal custody but mom makes her own rules. The more we file contempt charges the more they see she does not comply or do what is in the child's best interest.

If he does NOT have joint legal custody......he might think about doing so and/or filing for full custody. If you need a good lawyer on this and are in the Carmel area, let me know. WE've got a GREAT one!

In the state of Ohio if he pays child support he gets to see his child unless he refuses (I had an uncle who paid child support but never saw his son because he didn't want to). Obviously he's not refusing, so she's in the wrong.

Get a lawyer and get your nephew.

And depending on how your parents feel about this and the judges in your nephew's particular county, your parents might want to apply for visitation as well. From what I've experienced dealing with a lot of children in joint custody situations, when a parent refuses the other parent to see the child without reason and frequently, too often someone's not caring for the child as s/he should and is afraid the other parent will find out. If that is the case, the more your nephew is out of the situation, the better.

My brother had to deal with the custody issues of his daughter. He actually was awarded sole custody, but I do know that if you want particular rights, you have to go through the courts to have them granted. For instance, they can settle through the courts on who gets the children on what holidays. It can get a little confusing at times because they usually will alternate years, like he gets them for this Christmas, she gets them for next. But, it is well worth it since you can report her not following the court order if she doesn't comply. Other than what's enforced by the court, if she has legal custody and he's only granted every other weekend at this point, she has the right to dictate anything above and beyond that. If he wants more, he needs to get it by calling a lawyer. It's unfair, but unfortunately it's just the reality of custodial issues with children.

I dated a man in a similar situation years ago, and a friend of mine also went through this. Your brother HAS to take her to court to have any chance of regular visitation. He could sue for joint custody, or full custody even, in order to end up with the most opportunity for seeing his son. He will have to spend the money, and it can get very costly if she doesn't follow what the court orders. My old boyfriend had to keep going to court to fight for his visitation rights, because his ex would take their son and simply not be home when he showed up for his court-granted visits. But maybe just having a lawyer involved and having the court order the visits (there will be an exact, regular schedule determined) will keep her in line, and he will have a legal recourse if she violates the judge's orders. As far as keeping supplies on hand, your brother should just have these things at his house and keep them there. If his ex is not properly taking care of the child, he needs to document everything so he can present his case in court.

Unfortunately, your brother is going to have to get a lawyer involved to set up visitation. She has no right to keep him away, but at the same time, since there are no court documents to back him up, he really can't do much about it. Make sure that he has documentation as to the car, and child support and all other monies he has spent to show the courts that he is doing all he can. The courts will frown on her keeping him away from his son. It's very rare these days to find a man that goes above and beyond the set child support. They will set up visitation guidelines and she will have no choice but to let him have his son on those set days. Maybe he should mention to her that if she doesn't work out something with him outside of the courts, then he'll have no choice but to take her to court? MAYBE she'll see the light and work something out with him?
Good luck and God Bless!

You said they have never been to court, he is paying her child support and they have an agreement which she is violating. Is the agreement a written document? Was it notortized?
If not then verbal commitment is not necessarily the same as a written contract, and the written contract can be held up in a courtroom, which is something they have never experienced. I hate to tell you this, it sounds horrid, but even court orders are violated and expensive to enforce.
My heart goes out to your brother, who sounds like he is doing his best to be a great father, and who obviously loves his son very much and really wants to spend time with him, but short of proving she is an unfit mother or taking her to court his options are very limited. Doesn't sound to me like she has any intention of being reasonable.

First of all were they married when his son was born? If not then technically she does have full custody of him. I went through this with the father of my children but I don't keep him from seeing them I encourage it. Also it is his responsibility to have the diapers,formula,etc for his son and as well as it is hers. He doesn't have to send what he has back with him. He pays his child support so she should be able to provide that herself and he shouldn't feel guilty as hard as that may be. Also I know when we went for child support they let us know that he had 30 days to dispute it because of visitation or whatever. I think the only thing he could do now is try and take her to court for some type of custody or visitations set up. He should try and go for full custody hoping to get anything. That's what most lawyers I've talked to have told me. I wish him the best and happy holidays to all of you.

Child Support and Visitation have nothing to do with each other. In the state of Ohio, and most states, if the parents were not married when the child was born, then the mother has sole physical custody of that child. No visitation and/or custody arrangements would have been drawn up through the Child Support hearings because that is not what they do, they are responsible for the Child Support portion only. If your brother wants a visitation schedule he needs to take the mother to court and have one ordered. That will not mean that she will abide by it or that the courts will enforce it. They aren't the best when it comes to stuff like that.

I think he needs to get a lawyer and be aggressive with regards to his rights to see his son. The mother sounds a little unstable, is she? Anyways he needs a lawyer and he needs to make it all legal with regards to his visitation and rights.

There are laws out there to declare the holidays with the kids, he needs to go to the court house and get a copy. They are standard and they rotate. Also if he needs help in compliance the sherriff can assist. And if the courts find her in comtempt she can serve time. These judges are pretty reasonable and so are custody issues, she should be glad her child has such a decent father. She may be angry with him, but that is no reason to be like this. If she doesn't trust him with the baby, and it sounds like this is not the issue because he has the baby at other times, enforcable supervised visits can be arranged. He may end up with the baby altogether if this keeps up. I am going to give a you a help group for dads I hope it is available in your area. Northcoastfathers.org or ____@____.com the number is ###-###-####, also the number for family counsel is ###-###-####, There is also help from the govenor Ted Strickland in The Ohio Comission on Fatherhood. You haven't mentioned that you have spent anytime with your nephew either, I hope that you do get to form a relationship with him, also the babys' granparents need to be included (That would be your mom and dad.) Hope all of this helps, best of luck to you.

Not knowing the whole situation I'm going out on the limb and say - time to go back to court and get everything out in writing. Why was CPS involved? What did your brother do that the welfare would take away his visitaions? Why would he be so to obtain a car for her? She sounds like a user! He needs to stop buying items for baby and letting "mom" know about them. IF there is a problem that the CPS got involved - I'd suggest he take parenting classes and IF there are drugs/alcohol involved - clean it up and get help! You see because we don't know the whole situation it's hard to really know how to help you.

Unfortunatly in the State of Ohio if they were not married when they had their son, the father has no legal rights to his child. I've gone through this with my ex, he threatened to take our daughter away from me blah, blah, blah, he was just angry at the amount of child support he had to pay, but i went though job and family services to get him to legally pay child support, but he would have to take me to court to get legal visitation or joint custody, whatever. But I would never use my child as a pawn in between us, but unfortunately there are women out there that would. So i guess what i'm saying is he needs to go to court to get his legal visitation, then she could not violate that!

Your brother needs to get a lawyer (one who is sympathetic to fathers' rights...there is one in Indpls. who advertises on the radio frequently) ASAP.
He meeds to keep a written record of the money he pays, as well as the car etc. AND he should write down any incidents where she is contrary or refusing him visitation etc.
THESE THINGS ARE SO IMPORTANT!!!!
Sit down with him and help him recall the dates and circumstances of other previous refusals of visitation so that he will be armed with this information when he sees a lawyer.
She does NOT have the right to refuse him as far as I know.
My son has 50/50 custody and he had to fight every step of the way but he did.

You would think not but she is - I'm sorry to say he is going to have to go to court. I would make sure to get all the custody you can. I'm surprised whent hey went for child support there was not custody arrangements. Sounds like she is being one of those mom's that use the child to get stuff from the dad and won't let him see him. So He is going to have to go to a lawyer.

I don't know if you're in Ohio but if the parents weren't married, the mother is lawfully the legal custodian of the child. No court action is necessary. Child support and visitation are separate issues. Unfortunately, since she is not abiding by their verbal agreement, he will need to go to court to obtain a visitation order. And after receipt of the order, if she still doesn't comply (and many don't) he would have to return to court to have them hold her in contempt and face further consequences.

He should go to your county juvenile court and file a "pro se" motion which means he doesn't need an attorney, then try to get some kind of custody and visitation order. If the parties can't come to an agreement outside of court, this is what they do. It usually costs a filing fee, but it's alot cheaper than an attorney. That way, she will be court ordered to follow the custody arrangement. He can even try to lower his support this way if he wants, or she can try to get more. This way they can also figure out who will be able to claim the child on their taxes. Good luck.

My cousin wanted to refuse her husband visitation. He went to the local police with a copy of the visitation order and the police went with him to enforce the visitation order. He has the right to see the child and she cannot refuse visitation unless there is a court order stating so. She cannot travel with the child without a notorized release from him allowing her too. Anything he buys like diapers and close he can keep at his house for visitation.

I beleive that in OH the parent taking custody in responsible for picking up the child. If it is his turn for visitation he is responible for going and getting the child. Likewise she is responsible for picking up the child after visitation. And he needs a formal visition order. There should have been one put in place when he was ordered to pay child support.

Making deals or agreements or arrangements clearly won't work in this case because there is no entity to enforce them when she breaks her end of the deal. He needs to make the custody/visitation an enforceable order enacted by a judge so that his rights are recognized and protected.

Until then, the mother can continue to play all the games she wants to because there is nothing that states where the child should go. In a perfect world, people would do the right thing for a child and allow both parents to be actively involved and engaged in a child's life in the event of a divorce, separation, or break up. Unfortunately, it make take jumping through some legal hoops in order to do what is best for the child.

Do not delay; he should contact a lawyer immediately to begin rightful visitation/custody with his child.

He has every right to see his son. If he wants to he can probably take her to court and get more custody if he wants it. Sounds like it might be a good idea.
With that situation I would suggest he keep the "above and beyond" contributions and all the child support documented. If he has proof of the support he's already provided beyond the requirements it will look even better. And tell him to stash the clothes, formula, and diapers before she comes to pick up the kid - he doesn't need to be buying that stuff repeatedly if he's already paying support to her. Some people are greedy and selfish. I hope they can work it out.

Unfortunately if he has never gone to court, there is nothing he can do about it. He needs to be keeping a journal of everything that happens, when she brings the child with no diapers, clothes, food, etc. Anytime she keeps the child from him, even the times he has the child. Documenting is very important. Then he's got to get a lawyer immediately no matter how much it cost because if he doesn't do it soon, she may take off with the child and then he'll never see him.

My brother has been through this time and again with the mother of his first child. If there is a court order in place that states the he gets his child every other weekend, and she is refusing that, then she is in contempt of court. He can call the police on her and she will have to let him see his son. If there is no custody or visitation schedule drawn up by a court, she can do whatever she wants. She has primary custody right now, that makes her the boss. He needs to get the details of custody and visitation in writing by a court of law NOW! Also, she doesn't have to bring diapers and formula. It's not written anywhere. My suggestion on that would be to have a ready supply there, even if it's just a small package of diapers and a small can of formula. that way, if she does decide to bring the baby, he'll have them. OH, and they can write the visitation so that they are each responsible for driving 1/2 way. It sounds like mom is using the little one as a pawn in a game. I hate that women do that to their children. I can't even begin to understand that mindset. Good luck to your brother. I hope it all works out sooner rather than later.

Not sure what state you are in but I do know that in the state of Indiana that Child Support and Visitation have nothing to do with each other. Meaning, even if he is not paying any child support, she CANNOT ban him from seeing his child! It is not like child support are "payments" to allow visitation.
1) ALWAYS pay ANY money to her THRU THE COURT!!! If not, the court can consider it a 'gift' and claim his is behind in child support.
2) Document ANY violations (not allowing him to see the child, etc)
3) She CANNOT take anything from the father that he has purchased 'clothes, diapers, etc' that is what CS is for.
4) Get a lawyer, if he cannot pay for one there are a lot of programs out there that will assist him with child issues.

I hate to say this but even if hes doing everything he needs to do without that piece of paper from the courts giving him the rights to see the child she can do as she pleases but if he has that paper then she must obey the ruling of the court. Good luck.

He definitely needs his rights represented in court. First step: a good lawyer that can advise him. If he wants LEGAL visitation rights, he will need to go to court. Once visitation is set, and mom refuses visitation rights after that, he can call the police which will enforce the visistation right at that time. Sounds like though that he and the mother are having prbls too b/c they are unable to communicate. She either doesn't care that he is the father or she is hurt, offended, etc by him and this is her way of controlling the situation... He should think about trying to restore his relationship with her or find a way where they can communicate amicably for the sake of his child. It will make your nephew's life so, so much easier. Counseling is always a good option...

He needs to take her to court!! If he pays support and there there is nothing saying he is not aloud to see the child then she could be in contempt of court. I would file asap. Good luck to your brother and Merry Christmas

K.,
He is paying child support and has right to see that child he needs to take her to court and demand his parental rights.Even Grand parents can get visitation right's now a days.Any and all children need a DAD in their lifes.He is supporting his child so he has the right to spend time with the child. Maybe he should file for custody of the child and let her pay him child support that just might change her attitude.You said she got residental custody through Welfare, well obviously she doesn't work or make enough to keep the baby on her own.If I were him I would fight for custody and not let it go on any longer.
Debbie

If they went to court and had child support set up and he is current with his payments. She can not deny him seeing his child if she is she is in contempt and he needs to tell his lawyer and take her back to court.

He needs to contact child support and request the right for visitation, b/c he is paying child support and make sure he shows them proof of the car he gave her. she has not right to deny him visitation especially if he is paying child support. it's not like he is a dead beat dad. tell him good luck.

Document Document Document and get a GOOD lawyer and take her to court. If he is unable to get full custody he will at the very least have visitation rights and can even request addtional parenting time where he could get an additional weekend or something. Once the court determines custody there should be state regulated parenting time guidelines that spells out who gets what holiday ect. Then if she denies him visitation on his time she is in contempt of court and he can take her back to court, too many contempt charges and maybe he would end up with custody. NEVER stop documenting he may never know when he will need the info. Just be sure the lawyer is a good experienced one. I hate it when CRAZY women get to keep their children especially when the father is a good one and perfectly capable of raising the child.

Have your brother document every conversation, every visit, and everything else. Then have him see an attorney. He should be able to establish at least co-custody and have full visitation. He may even want to sue for full custody.
It is a shame that the mother isn't allowing your brother to be a father; it seems to me that she is viewing him as a child support check and not much else. I'm so sorry for him and his little one. Good luck!

His best bet it to go to court. then he has legal rights.
Also he needs to get his car back. a very sweet gesture but he is liable if she wrecks. Bad move finacially and legally altough sounds like a great guy.