(Minor issue: Bane's voice seemed to occasionally modulate to somewhere between Deckard Cain and the guy from the old Smucker's commercials.)

But regarding Bane's charisma/intimidation of his followers -- the League of Shadows has, since Batman Begins, infiltrated Gotham City. It might be that these garbage truck drivers have been League agents waiting for this moment.

Bane's superficial motivation is to "give the power back to the people." But his real motivation is just to show how corrupt Gotham really is... and how easily the rest of them can be corrupted. The 1% is running things and basically "herding" the 99% with lies... but Bane also reveals that many of the 99% desperately want to be herded. And then they'll blow it up anyway.

The intent is for the League of Shadows to be even more terrifying than the Joker -- the same appetite for chaos and willingness to destroy, but with the addition of uncompromising principle. Now, whether it comes off that way is another matter...

ABOUT TALIA: Unnecessary character. Personally, I think it's unclear who is leading this operation anyway. Think of her as nothing but a last-minute twist.

ABOUT THE STOCK MARKET PLAN: Daggett was going to take over the company originally. Talia was the back-up, but she was also put in place as the "easy alternative" to Daggett.

____________________

General Crap from Me:

This movie really just failed to generate a real sense of peril, for the same reason as all of the Bryan Singer superhero movies (X-Men, Superman Returns). We're meant to connect to the peril of the hero, but the heroes aren't particularly relatable, and we're missing the other major key to create a sense of peril:

Innocent Bystanders.

In all three X-Men movies, the big battle takes place in some remote/island location. Liberty Island, remote lake, Alcatraz Island... And even in cases where there is supposed to be a lot at stake? Take X2: Professor X is frying the brains of every human on the planet. Planes should be crashing, surgeons fainting with open patients, buses careening into orphan factories or something... we see none of it.

If you create a hero that your audience can intensely relate to, you could get away with that. These movies didn't. But even then, it's better to have the innocent bystanders to give the audience another opportunity to emotionally connect to the gravity of the situation. A lot of times, the "love interest hostage" fills this role (all of the Raimi Spider-Man moves rely on this), but even that gets old -- especially if that character isn't handled (or cast) well.

In The Dark Knight Rises, we're shown the trials and tribulations of the major characters. But we're left to assume the trials and tribulations of the how-many-thousands of Gotham residents? Seriously, even the stadium collapse doesn't show us much.

Nolan has some trouble with the emotional content of his movies (a lot like Singer). Marion Cotillard similarly doesn't have much emotional range. Michael Caine was a godsend to this movie, Anne Hathaway was a surprise-brilliant choice, and Gordon-Levitt held his own... but your other two major characters? They wear masks. Emotion is hard to show in that way (see: Why Cyclops is such an awful character in the X-Men movies). (And Christian Bale doesn't have the most expressive face.)

...all that to say this movie, more than the others, was attempting to stir the emotions rather than the mind. And too much was stacked against that, which is why it fell flat for some folks. In the end, Nolan is the guy to call when you want to tickle your audience's brain, not when you want to stir their hearts.

For my two cents, I felt like the entire scene with the Scarecrow acting as the judge was supposed to be the Joker originally.

Also I seem to recall Bruce wearing a bag of supplies every time he tried the climb, regardless that rope had to weigh at least 30 (probably closer to 50) pounds during that jump; way more than the supplies he was carrying.

As for how did he get back to Gotham question, he did live as a homeless guy for an unspecified amount of time before joining the League of Shadows. He knew how to get around on no budget.

Captcha* tickled ivoriesSeems relevant.

Edit* I forgot to add I felt a lot of the panic that the populace should be feeling was strangely absent. There is a scene in Game of Thrones where the queen says "I imagine if we lose this war we're all in for a good rape" and it really adds to how the group of women shes with are feeling making the scenario much more freighting. It was also implied that Talia's mother was raped to death in the prison because the Doctor forgot to lock the cell. I feel there should have been a few scenes of people hiding from the army of armed convicts that were patrolling the streets or at least an acknowledgement that this plus murders had to be happening in the streets. Even being PG-13 there should have been an acknowledgment of citizen terror and the savagery that had to be existing within the anarchy of the situation.

(Minor issue: Bane's voice seemed to occasionally modulate to somewhere between Deckard Cain and the guy from the old Smucker's commercials.)

But regarding Bane's charisma/intimidation of his followers -- the League of Shadows has, since Batman Begins, infiltrated Gotham City. It might be that these garbage truck drivers have been League agents waiting for this moment.

Bane's superficial motivation is to "give the power back to the people." But his real motivation is just to show how corrupt Gotham really is... and how easily the rest of them can be corrupted. The 1% is running things and basically "herding" the 99% with lies... but Bane also reveals that many of the 99% desperately want to be herded. And then they'll blow it up anyway.

The intent is for the League of Shadows to be even more terrifying than the Joker -- the same appetite for chaos and willingness to destroy, but with the addition of uncompromising principle. Now, whether it comes off that way is another matter...

ABOUT TALIA: Unnecessary character. Personally, I think it's unclear who is leading this operation anyway. Think of her as nothing but a last-minute twist.

ABOUT THE STOCK MARKET PLAN: Daggett was going to take over the company originally. Talia was the back-up, but she was also put in place as the "easy alternative" to Daggett.

____________________

General Crap from Me:

This movie really just failed to generate a real sense of peril, for the same reason as all of the Bryan Singer superhero movies (X-Men, Superman Returns). We're meant to connect to the peril of the hero, but the heroes aren't particularly relatable, and we're missing the other major key to create a sense of peril:

Innocent Bystanders.

In all three X-Men movies, the big battle takes place in some remote/island location. Liberty Island, remote lake, Alcatraz Island... And even in cases where there is supposed to be a lot at stake? Take X2: Professor X is frying the brains of every human on the planet. Planes should be crashing, surgeons fainting with open patients, buses careening into orphan factories or something... we see none of it.

If you create a hero that your audience can intensely relate to, you could get away with that. These movies didn't. But even then, it's better to have the innocent bystanders to give the audience another opportunity to emotionally connect to the gravity of the situation. A lot of times, the "love interest hostage" fills this role (all of the Raimi Spider-Man moves rely on this), but even that gets old -- especially if that character isn't handled (or cast) well.

In The Dark Knight Rises, we're shown the trials and tribulations of the major characters. But we're left to assume the trials and tribulations of the how-many-thousands of Gotham residents? Seriously, even the stadium collapse doesn't show us much.

Nolan has some trouble with the emotional content of his movies (a lot like Singer). Marion Cotillard similarly doesn't have much emotional range. Michael Caine was a godsend to this movie, Anne Hathaway was a surprise-brilliant choice, and Gordon-Levitt held his own... but your other two major characters? They wear masks. Emotion is hard to show in that way (see: Why Cyclops is such an awful character in the X-Men movies). (And Christian Bale doesn't have the most expressive face.)

...all that to say this movie, more than the others, was attempting to stir the emotions rather than the mind. And too much was stacked against that, which is why it fell flat for some folks. In the end, Nolan is the guy to call when you want to tickle your audience's brain, not when you want to stir their hearts.

It's also nice to think about the movies in the theme of Jude, Jury, and Executioner. Each movie had a certain theme that pertained to a court room theme. Just something I noticed.

On the dual rising structure - the first rising wasn't a rising. It was a 'here, here's a bunch of stuff you can have to be the Batman'. It isn't earned, it's given to him on a plate. Bruce thinks he can just get back into it without a problem.

Then Bane goes 'nah uh', smack down!

Then Bruce earns the Mantle of the Bat (oo - epic sounding!) by rising from the pit... and is somehow able to teleport all over the city in moments...

And since we are all nitpicking. What the hell was the deal with the transfusion? Don't you identify bodies primarily from dental records? Did they swap all of his blood? The whole thing confused the hell out of me.

And since we are all nitpicking. What the hell was the deal with the transfusion? Don't you identify bodies primarily from dental records? Did they swap all of his blood? The whole thing confused the hell out of me.

You use dental records as a last resort. If you have readily available fingerprints or DNA - like from blood - you probably wouldn't bother with dental records. Especially if what you think you're doing is just picking out charred corpse A from charred corpse B. Remember, that was a CIA flight, so all they basically did is go in, count bodies to make sure everyone supposed to be on the plane was on the plane, and figure out who was who.

I really liked the movie. Loads, and this was a great podcast. I knew you'd make one and was waiting patiently.

About those who say that Joseph Gordon-Levett's character couldn't be Batman without martial arts training or whatever. Let me point out that he knocked out Teal'c from Stargate in a single blow. Dude's 6'3" and built like a brick privy. They changed Christopher Judge's role (small though it is) because he made Bane look wimpy by comparison if they were in the same scene together because Bane's only 5' 10".

One thing I would like for them to have done with Bruce escaping the pit is if he didn't escape by climbing out, but rather thought his way out. I was almost certain he was going to think of a clever way out rather than just "jumping really far". So that way he didn't just succeed by being physically stronger than the other guys. The whole taking off the rope thing sort of did that, but I would have loved to see him use that amazing brain Batman is supposed to have.

How it's done in the film is the equivalent of Indiana Jones getting through the trials to the holy grail by being able to run really fast, and not using his head and knowledge to best them.

On the topic of TDKR: One thing that I've never heard explored in any of the analysis of The Dark Knight Rises is that Bane and Batman are essentially the different sides of the two-face coin. Bane is Batman's evil alter-universe self.

For argument's sake, lets say that Joker did not lie to Batman and told him the right location of Rachel. What it would mean is that Harvey Dent would be dead and Rachel would be alive. Since Rachel has already made the decision to be with Dent over Bruce, we can assume that her true love lies with Dent. I would assert that her pain over Dent's death could lead her down a wicked path of wanting to punish criminals. Batman, through his love of Rachel, may end up being a force for evil, in which he's never allowed to take off the mask and always be a terrifying hand of distorted justice...which just described Bane. Bonus extrapolation for Batman being horribly burned during his saving of Rachel.

I might be drawing too much comparison and over-thinking things, but let's consider the following things shown in the movie:

1. Both Bane and Batman have one person who they value over others. Both of these loved people are beacons in a dark place and have direct connections to childhood (Rachel being the childhood friend that convinces Bruce to be a better man, Talia being a child who was the only innocence in the prison Bane was interred in). There is a point where they both attempt to save their loved one. The difference? Batman fails and Bane succeeds.

2. Both use the masks they wear to hide the pain. Bane masks physical pain while Batman covers up emotional pain. A large difference is that Bane can't take off the mask. I think that this points to a thematic idea that the "Bane" persona has completely taken over who Tom Hardy's character was, something that hasn't happened to Batman (at least not yet).

3. The superficial presentation of these characters back up these thematic assertions. Batman is entirely covered by his suit with the exception of his mouth. Bane, in contrast, is most commonly "in his element" shirtless with only his mouth covered up. Batman speaks in a low, gruff threatening voice whereas Bane speaks in a relatively high, sophisticated voice (for what you'd expect coming out of a hulk).

There are way further comparisons to be made (feel free to discuss), but I don't want to take up any more forum space.

thenumberthirteen:I really liked the movie. Loads, and this was a great podcast. I knew you'd make one and was waiting patiently.

About those who say that Joseph Gordon-Levett's character couldn't be Batman without martial arts training or whatever. Let me point out that he knocked out Teal'c from Stargate in a single blow. Dude's 6'3" and built like a brick privy. They changed Christopher Judge's role (small though it is) because he made Bane look wimpy by comparison if they were in the same scene together because Bane's only 5' 10".

My husband leaned over during that scene and whispered "That's Teal'c." I didn't even recognize him!

thenumberthirteen:I really liked the movie. Loads, and this was a great podcast. I knew you'd make one and was waiting patiently.

About those who say that Joseph Gordon-Levett's character couldn't be Batman without martial arts training or whatever. Let me point out that he knocked out Teal'c from Stargate in a single blow. Dude's 6'3" and built like a brick privy. They changed Christopher Judge's role (small though it is) because he made Bane look wimpy by comparison if they were in the same scene together because Bane's only 5' 10".

My husband leaned over during that scene and whispered "That's Teal'c." I didn't even recognize him!

I probably wouldn't have recognised him considering he's only in it for a couple seconds, and I have a picture of him on my wall :)

Thing is I knew he was in it as he announced it a year or so ago. So I was looking out especially for him in every scene. His role was a real disappointment for such a cool actor. Though the guy who played the president also plays the president in the later seasons of Stargate.

thenumberthirteen:I really liked the movie. Loads, and this was a great podcast. I knew you'd make one and was waiting patiently.

About those who say that Joseph Gordon-Levett's character couldn't be Batman without martial arts training or whatever. Let me point out that he knocked out Teal'c from Stargate in a single blow. Dude's 6'3" and built like a brick privy. They changed Christopher Judge's role (small though it is) because he made Bane look wimpy by comparison if they were in the same scene together because Bane's only 5' 10".

My husband leaned over during that scene and whispered "That's Teal'c." I didn't even recognize him!

I probably wouldn't have recognised him considering he's only in it for a couple seconds, and I have a picture of him on my wall :)

Thing is I knew he was in it as he announced it a year or so ago. So I was looking out especially for him in every scene. His role was a real disappointment for such a cool actor. Though the guy who played the president also plays the president in the later seasons of Stargate.

And at least they got Owen from Torchwood.

Well, Owen, I recognized. :) Never did like Owen, though. More of Ianto girl.

Well, Owen, I recognized. :) Never did like Owen, though. More of Ianto girl.

Haha! Completely agree.

So, Mike mentioned something about the weight of the rope, and I was under the impression that the rope was that tiny bit too short/taut to be able to make the jump. Pretty sure on his first jump he tugs on it and it looks pretty tight to me (and then it didn't make sense that he continued to jump with it...)

Hey Steve, Mike, Susan, and Greg, I wanted to ask about a possible technical glitch I noticed during the movie.

In the scene where Batman and Catwoman are trying to maneuver the bomb towards the bunker it originally came from, something weird happened at my theater. Batman shoots the truck a couple times as he's flying towards it, then there was a very awkward cut to the truck being crashed. Like, literally 3 seconds after the truck gets shot, Batman, Catwoman, and Gordon are standing there listening to Talia talk about how she's flooding the chamber anyway, so their whole plan is useless.

It almost seemed like there were some missing frames in the film reel or something (the theater in my town is super old and hasn't upgraded to digital yet), but I asked the guy at the ticket booth afterwards and he said that part was in the middle of a reel, so it couldn't have been that. He basically said that what we saw is just how the film was edited. Period.

Did this happen for you at all? I just can't believe that such a jarring cut would be in a movie like this for any reason other than an error.

I am so glad Susan is on this podcast to defend The Dark Knight Rises on some of the more unfair nitpicking. It's not perfect, but it's still a great film. There are just as many plot-holes as The Dark Knight (especially the Joker's impossible forward planning), but that film is apparently untouchable.

I think Bane's voice was redubbed to make it louder and clearer, because it seemed really unconvincing that the voice was coming from him and I don't mean the fact he sounded like Darth Sean Connery...

The 'flying the Nuke over the ocean' thing does feel played out and there didn't seem any risk of him actually dying.

thenumberthirteen:One thing I would like for them to have done with Bruce escaping the pit is if he didn't escape by climbing out, but rather thought his way out. I was almost certain he was going to think of a clever way out rather than just "jumping really far". So that way he didn't just succeed by being physically stronger than the other guys. The whole taking off the rope thing sort of did that, but I would have loved to see him use that amazing brain Batman is supposed to have.

How it's done in the film is the equivalent of Indiana Jones getting through the trials to the holy grail by being able to run really fast, and not using his head and knowledge to best them.

They kept emphasising that a kid escaped and I thought they were leading up to exactly what you are talking about.

TwistedEllipses:They kept emphasising that a kid escaped and I thought they were leading up to exactly what you are talking about.

I'd think that him thinking his way out would have been better for the character. He's not Superman, and he can't beat every villain by being stronger than them. Bane's supposed to be stronger than him. Sort of the point of the character (though thankfully not the only point) so I'd be nice to see him beat him other than, well, beating him. I'm glad the Riddler wasn't in this movie as Batman wouldn't be able to solve his riddles.

Rassmusseum:Hey Steve, Mike, Susan, and Greg, I wanted to ask about a possible technical glitch I noticed during the movie.

In the scene where Batman and Catwoman are trying to maneuver the bomb towards the bunker it originally came from, something weird happened at my theater. Batman shoots the truck a couple times as he's flying towards it, then there was a very awkward cut to the truck being crashed. Like, literally 3 seconds after the truck gets shot, Batman, Catwoman, and Gordon are standing there listening to Talia talk about how she's flooding the chamber anyway, so their whole plan is useless.

It almost seemed like there were some missing frames in the film reel or something (the theater in my town is super old and hasn't upgraded to digital yet), but I asked the guy at the ticket booth afterwards and he said that part was in the middle of a reel, so it couldn't have been that. He basically said that what we saw is just how the film was edited. Period.

Did this happen for you at all? I just can't believe that such a jarring cut would be in a movie like this for any reason other than an error.

That sounds like a cut piece of footage. The truck crashed by falling into the underpass (Terminator 2 style) so if that part wasn't there then it would be a fault with the film. Maybe it was on the beginning/end of a reel and it was cut by mistake or damaged. At my cinema at least the film comes in lots of canisters that are stitched together into one big reel on the projector, and then broken down again before it's sent back. A mistake in putting it together or a cut piece of film would explain that. It'd be very unusual as it'd be a new print, and that's a lot of film to skip; a good 30 seconds so that's 720 frames (at 24fps), a good few feet. It could be an error in the print, and not the cinema's fault. Even digital prints have faults. We had a digital print where an entire scene (at least a minute long) was shown twice. Nothing we could do about it :)

TwistedEllipses:They kept emphasising that a kid escaped and I thought they were leading up to exactly what you are talking about.

I'd think that him thinking his way out would have been better for the character. He's not Superman, and he can't beat every villain by being stronger than them. Bane's supposed to be stronger than him. Sort of the point of the character (though thankfully not the only point) so I'd be nice to see him beat him other than, well, beating him. I'm glad the Riddler wasn't in this movie as Batman wouldn't be able to solve his riddles.

Rassmusseum:Hey Steve, Mike, Susan, and Greg, I wanted to ask about a possible technical glitch I noticed during the movie.

In the scene where Batman and Catwoman are trying to maneuver the bomb towards the bunker it originally came from, something weird happened at my theater. Batman shoots the truck a couple times as he's flying towards it, then there was a very awkward cut to the truck being crashed. Like, literally 3 seconds after the truck gets shot, Batman, Catwoman, and Gordon are standing there listening to Talia talk about how she's flooding the chamber anyway, so their whole plan is useless.

It almost seemed like there were some missing frames in the film reel or something (the theater in my town is super old and hasn't upgraded to digital yet), but I asked the guy at the ticket booth afterwards and he said that part was in the middle of a reel, so it couldn't have been that. He basically said that what we saw is just how the film was edited. Period.

Did this happen for you at all? I just can't believe that such a jarring cut would be in a movie like this for any reason other than an error.

That sounds like a cut piece of footage. The truck crashed by falling into the underpass (Terminator 2 style) so if that part wasn't there then it would be a fault with the film. Maybe it was on the beginning/end of a reel and it was cut by mistake or damaged. At my cinema at least the film comes in lots of canisters that are stitched together into one big reel on the projector, and then broken down again before it's sent back. A mistake in putting it together or a cut piece of film would explain that. It'd be very unusual as it'd be a new print, and that's a lot of film to skip; a good 30 seconds so that's 720 frames (at 24fps), a good few feet. It could be an error in the print, and not the cinema's fault. Even digital prints have faults. We had a digital print where an entire scene (at least a minute long) was shown twice. Nothing we could do about it :)

Alright, thanks much for the clarification. I'm knew it had to be damaged film or something--the guy at the theater talked about how films are sometimes damaged in transit when they arrive, so that's probably what it was.

I've never been a big fan of Nolan batman movies, but I enjoyed this one. Granted I had low expectations going in, but still. I think Catwoman was the shining achievement of the movie, if not the whole series. I love that depiction of Catwoman. Kinda hate how she was shoe-horned into a love interest but ah well. I dunno, these movies are just sort of non-entities to me. It's like a weird Bizzaro world filled with people who vaguely resemble these characters I love, but aren't quite them. That's why Ledger's Joker never entranced me. Honestly, I enjoyed Hardy's performance of Bane as much as I enjoyed Joker. This movie was pretty cool. Bane got ruined by the ending, and I still think that the Nolanverse batman is ludicrously boring. No Batman movie should end with Batman running off to a sunny idyllic cafe with cat-woman, for god's sake.

By the by, I think that Catwoman's friend was probably Holly Robinson. She's her friend and sort of protege, who Catwoman is super protective of. That's the impression I got from it based on reading Batman: Year One by Frank Miller. And Nolan seems to use some stuff based on Miller comics quite a bit.