This guy was trained in Matsubayashi by a student of Frank Grant and Jim Wax, two of the first Americans to study with Nagamine in the 50's. His understanding is on par with that of my teacher in Florida. My teacher also trained ALOT with Frank Grant. Nagamine taught certain things to people a long time ago that he never taught to Americans since. His remarks 7 years ago is what got me started really investigating groundfighting in kata. And low and behold I found a teacher 2 years later who understood these things and had all of the answers I was searching for.

That was an interesting EBudo thread. I liked the "boston crab" guard response. Pretty cool. I am not sure how much this proves your case, though, as this thread was well after the UFC. I would be equally interested to see more groundfighting applications written before 1993.

_________________________"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Matt, unfortunately one reason for the spread of so much information is the internet. Everyday people like you and me can discuss this stuff from across the world and leave a record of our conversation. Before 1993 the only place you would have found such dialogue would be in print or film, and the people training this stuff were doing just that, not writing books or making television shows.

And at least it shows I am not making this stuff up. Damn, I should have kept my mouth shut. I could have promoted my self to 10th Dan and called it American Shorin Ryu MMA Groundfighting. Then I could have found a hillbilly town in Alabama, taught it to the locals, and everyone would have believed if I didn't teach it to them it doesn't exist.

I think that topic was covered on human weapon tv series. Hiagonna sensei obviously trains people differently from the other schools on the show. americanized karate was never very effective cause we were only recently shown what the kata applications are. Without the applications, you might as well hula dance.

Quote:Nagamine taught certain things to people a long time ago that he never taught to Americans since.

Let's see, Ueshiro was Okinawan, he was selected to be the first US matsubayashi representive of Nagamine's Art in 1960 by Nagamine, he was of Okinawan samurai class decendant, and he was related to Nagamine...his Newphew, I think. ...not exactly an 'outsider' to Nagamine's Art.

To my knowledge, Ueshiro never taught groundfighting - muchless as it related to kata, nor did his students. Must have been kept a family secret that only leaked out during the 1990's....sometime after the first couple UFC's coincidently. but it's conceivable people were make Karate-Judo/JJ connections as it relates to kata before that.

Arts evolve for the better and change for the worse depending on who the Art passes thru - whether people choose to admit it or not.

You have groundfighting connections to your standup kata from the hard work of someone (and/or yourself) making those connections AFTER they blended their crosstraining from another Art.

and it's likely they didn't blend it until there was a perceived need to do so....yet traditionalists like to say 'it is ALL there and always has been'. If it's only 'there' for you after crosstraining another Art, then it wasn't always there - was it.

you can guess it must have been there...you can believe and demonstrate it's there now - but you'll never know for sure. however, who cares? making the connections and learning/experimenting what works for you is what it's all about. not about looking for historic justifications.

Ed, a couple of things. I have always maintained the physical structure and principles of motion/movement are there. I also believe at some point these techniques were used in similar ways. I know everyone wants to ignore/dismiss the relation karate has to grappling. They will always say that karate wrestling does not mean actual wrestling (and I personally have never experienced any form of wrestling that did not contain some level of continued fighting on the ground). People will say that neither tegumi nor okinawan sumo contain ground fighting techniques. People will say that you can't use your karate on the ground and if you think you are you are using something else. However, what people said regarding my training has never affected it. The only thing that does is when the techniques/principles I use proves ineffective. I have said that the karate I practice is okinawan karate for the new millineum. People apparently don't like that either. Some people like their karate to stagnate and their kata to trap them into a very narrow mindset. The ultimate goal of a karateka is to find freedom within the confinement of kata. This is what I strive for, nothing less. However, some people's kata seems to be their prison. Actually that's fine with me, the mountain top is frequently a lonely place.

In regard to Ueshiro, he was either 3rd or 4th Dan when he left okinawa. To some those ranks are for masters, I guess, and for others they are relatively low on the totem pole. He was disfigured (which to some on okinawa would be considered a societal outcast) and used what Nagamine taught him to bounce at bars and fight for money. Maybe that is the type of student you would teach all of your secrets to, but there are some who think differently. I don't want to speak poorly of Ueshiro, but in no way was he the most knowledgable student of Nagamine. Maybe you should do some more research.

that wasn't my point. my point was, if you are suggesting Nagamine kept groundfighting a secret to foreigners, then you are kidding yourself from entertaining the possibility he didn't teach it at all. it's impossible to prove something was nonexistant - and thats where your argument lays.

I've heard the negative stories of Ueshiro....some simply don't wash. and many are positive/negative rumor depending on the persons affiliation. I've also heard the head of matsubayashi is/was a raging alcoholic....which, I give you, if true makes it more likely he'd have practiced 'ground fighting' more than others.

4th dan was pretty high in 1960, before they started handing dan ranks out in MB like candy. Ueshiro fought in bars? you don't say. you mean like Motobu and Arakaki used to brag about 'trying out techniques'? two of Nagamine's instructors. guess if it happened longer ago, it would be forgiven - maybe those passes are only given out every other generation. Then again, they didn't have their hands deformed in a fire as a teen during war carpet bombings - and still learn to smack a makiwara.

btw, Who would have been the most knowledgeable of Nagamine's Art in 1960?

that gossip stuff doesn't matter and who really knows with so many agendas floating around.

The first part of your post - you know, the part where you suggest that crosstraining and blending is ok within the confines of the kata - sure why not. but why stay confined to the kata? The other part about you being lonely on top of the mountain...I've found that the people who really are, never see themselves as ever reaching it - so they are never lonely getting there.

Quote:Yes, I know that is said about kata. However, Motobu's defeating a professional boxer seems to disprove that.

Boxing gloves don't make someone a boxer. The man Motobu defeated was less likely a proffesional boxer and more likely a European strong man who would've seemed like an impassable giant to the Japanese people of the day.

Quote: In addition this seems to go against the roots of karate.

By "roots of karate" are you talking about the bodygaurd theory? Some very knowledgable people, including the historian Harry Cook have rubbished that theory.

Quote:But, I don't remember Motobu ever saying that like you implied/stated.

Maybe when you guys were sucking down beers together he felt like talking about other stuff?

The story is told by one of Motobu's greatest admirers, Shoshin Nagamine.

Quote: Nagamine's goal was to teach karate as a way, which he did.

A bit like Funakoshi??

Quote: Actually, Nagamine never discussed groundfighting in kata as far as I know. However, he never taught sparring technique either, I guess that is not contained in Shorin Ryu either.

Am I seeing this right? Reading "ground fighting" in kata? Correct me if I'm wrong (I just can't stomach many of these threads when they take these turns).

Ground fighting in stand-up kata? Perhaps if the kata was being performed while lying on your back -- maybe I could see that. If there are any of those katas being performed, then I've never seen them before (which is possible).

Otherwise, I don't get it.

I mean, I can also read all sorts of images in clouds as well. Doesn't mean that Mickey Mouse is really in the sky though...

How does an upright kata = horizontal ground fighting? Am I missing something????

Did I say I reached the mountain top, no, I don't think so. I have met a couple and know of a few more who I will never be on par with. Believe me I am not there, nor may I ever get there, it is about the journey, not the goal. However, my road is a lonely one. But that is my journey.

As far as the current head of Matsubayashi, I have heard similar things. If you had heard what I have heard as well, I am surprised you believe he is the most knowledgable. In 1960 other than Nagamine, Jokei Kushi (Okinawan Sumo Expert, who of course knew nothing of ground fighting ), Seigi Nakamura, and Shinyei Kyan where the most knowledgable. And as far as Nagamine's teachers go Kyan, Arakaki, and Motobu were probably as self destructive and maladjusted as anyone. Kyan loved whores and gambling and taught the same to Arakaki. Motobu of course loved to start fights and assault people. However, Nagamine sought to emulate their karate, not their character. In fact, I could see Nagamine going out of his way to ensure his students were of the highest character so they would not fall into the same trappings of his teachers. I have also heard that Arakaki did not die due to stomach ulcers from worry, but from a gamble gone wrong involving a fight. You don't think that Nagamine would come down hard on anyone exhibiting similar behavior do you and possibly NOT share everything with such an individual? In addition to him I am suggesting Nagamine kept a lot secret from a lot of people.

As far as Ueshiro, he learned much more than to hit a makiwara with no fingers. Try becoming an expert in bojutsu, as well as one of the best street fighters in okinawa with no fingers. Oh, believe me, there are and were far greater men and karateka than me.