twdog wrote:Unfortunately, given how this game is going, it’s not impossible that in the future we may need to post messages on a .... let us say ... insecure ... board. I’m going to quickly show how to do a diffie-hellman key exchange which is an easy(ish with a calculator) and quick-ish way for two people to agree on a secret number in a public space. That secret number can then be used as an encryption key. [ and then maths ... ]

You guys have Private Messages any day other than that day. Seems like that would be much more straightforward.

I was already getting paranoid about there being a traitor in the team. Not that I was suspicious of anyone in particular, but that I assumed that we weren't the only ones that could convert. Plus the theory of someone else reading our board was entirely plausible to me, after all I had that in one of my games.

Sure there were PMs, but in PM games I take it for granted that the PMs are being read by a 3rd party networker, or at least being passed around. This might be the reason that I suck at PM games, actually ...

So the idea of the dh key exchange was to have an easy way to reestablish secure communication despite PM evesdroppers, a converted teammate, and a compromised board. Plus, dh is really quick; it only takes a couple of minutes and 2 posts to setup.

That PJ wrote:Anyway, I want to know if twdog and Zark are playing revisionist history and "oh, yeah, we totally knew all along" or if I have a legitimate blind spot in how I play that needs to be corrected. I don't suppose anyone is interested enough to go look and tell me, but if anyone's been following along, I'd love to know what they saw.

You didn't seem as committed, and I'll leave it at that. However, there are pile of (often irl) reasons someone might be less committed that don't involve a conversion. So I didn't know that you'd been converted, but I wasn't surprised

First off, thank you for the game rekard. I hope you enjoyed exacting your vegeance on my poor little brain. Every time I thought I had the faction layout figured out, a new faction popped up, over and over and over again. I'm very glad I was able to be here for the return to Draker.

I do think I'm going to take a break for bit, and possibly from (advertised, at least) conversion games in general. This was ultimately a bit *too* crazy for my taste and things at work are getting busy again.

Now, a crapton of responses/comments/questions, etc...

-) Why didn't people suspect Furin of being the Nutjob?I, at least, thought Furin couldn't be the Nutjob because he would have had to be making guesses and using whatever his powers were while dead/on vacation (The WHOOP WHOOP alarm at the immediate start of Day 6 was assumed to be the Nutjob's work during Day 5/Night 5). Day 5 wasn't a revenge day, so Furin being able to use his powers while dead was very, very unexpected.

Also, Admetus' human role was revealed on death, so there was at least a partial expectation that if the Nutjob was a Special Human like the Vigilante that he'd be revealed like that. The fact that he Vigged someone but was revealed as "plain" human reinforced the notion that he had to have been on a team that had a vig as a special power, and that was *further* backed up when MEM was revealed as a psychopathic wolf. Having 2 out of 3 "specials" in the game reveal on death implied very heavily that the Nutjob would as well.

-) Why keep the identity of the Sikrit traitor a secret on Day 7?I was worried about the lynch landing on a Sikrit member. Rather than try and bait/bribe/threaten into lynching the "correct" person I figured it was easier/safer to keep it obscured and make people have to face a coinflip. Plus, I half-expected Zark and/or Furin to release their PM publicly in an attempt to stop what I was hoping would be our victory. Keeping the traitor's identity obscured meant that I could insulate against that.

-) Part B of the above: Why did I play the Sikrit sociopath/traitor to Zark in PMs on Day 8? Multiple layers of psychology:1) Because of the 0% thing and the long delay on the Nightis-is-dead reveal I was convinced at the time that the Vampirian Zark/twdog team had been compromised by a conversion. 2) I knew my own team was compromised at least once.Therefore:a) I was hoping Zark was the Vampirian traitor or at least suspected as much. I wanted him pointed at either twdog or Furin, but I was doubtful it would work and I expected him to reveal the PM in order to sow discord inside SIkrit...b) I had to motivate both Aldax (sociopath? loyal?) and Rictus (Wasabeon traitor) to vote together in order to force at least a coinflip for a non-Sikrit. If *I* say I'm a traitor on my own it's less likely to be believed than if an opposing team "leaks" that fact. If all three members of Sikrit are singleton teams we *have* to lynch a non-Sikrit together in order to avoid losing. I could tolerate Furin being lynched because I could maul one of twdog/Zark but it would be a gamble: With Nightis gone, Rictus was a Wasabeon and I thought I had a 50/50 chance of mauling the wrong target and giving them the win if they had also converted Zark or twdog. The 0% thing coupled with the slow reveal on Nightis had me convinced another sociopath/non-parity player or a team with a non-parity victory condition was in play, so lynching a Vampirian and then mauling the other was the only *sure* way to avoid losing. Or so I thought.c) Zark gave me what I wanted as a result and the lynch fell out exactly as I hoped/wanted. It also freed me from the question of whether or not to honor the deal we'd made. I *do* try very hard to honor the spirit of the deals I make, and with the 0% message saying a 2v2 mutual win couldn't happen I at least wanted to try and keep Zark alive at the end... up until he betrayed me himself, at least. (And then Furin shot me and made it moot anyway).

And now you all have an explanation of how even my lies have lies. Wheels within wheels within wheels. (Oh hey, is that alfalfa pellet? Thanks spheno. )

Questions of my own:-) So spheno died due to colliding conversions?

-) Why didn't we (Sikrit) get our conversion as an option on Day 6? Rictus/Blindsniper/Simon were a three-person faction that we should have been able to convert from at that point, yes?

-) Can someone explain how there was 0% chance of two teams sharing victory at the start of Day 8? Is it because of Furin's vig being reloaded? I'm still very confused. That message combined with the long delay on Nightis being dead and gone really, really wrecked what I thought I understood of the game state, even though my understanding leaing up to that (rictus converted, aldax loyal, both vampirian loyal, furin nutjob/sociopath) was entirely correct.

-) Rictus, why didn't you join the Hellheart train? That's how I "knew" you were the traitor. You should've been able to join that pile-on with perfect safety since you were Wasabeon (and not Nightis like I originally thought) and it would have helped insulate Simon from the last-minute switch you were all afraid of...

-) Were there any negative consequences from the revival at all? (other than the obvious fact that Furin was alive to shoot me in the back)

A comment on the game mechanics/balance:-) Was taking away no-revive from the second revival day really necessary? With PMs to/from the revival targets available it seems like it would taking no-revive away would force the revival of the admitted sociopath (and nutjob) 100% of the time. If the secret factions have to pick between options they're going to pick the one that maybe benefits them vs. known opponents every time. This basically means we would had to have killed Furin not once, not twice, but THREE times in order to remove his threat: Two mauls (thanks MEM ) plus another death post-revival, all without him being revealed or his powers ceasing to work. This, coupled with having a reloading ( ) vig shot felt a bit overboard power-wise.

Finally, general nonsense:

Admetus wrote:You are owed quite a few back-shootings, mister.

Yes, yes I am. The question is, can people accomplish them faster than I accrue them?

Also, well-played Furin. I expected your betrayal, but that was not the delivery method I anticipated.

I kind of assume Okaros is out to backstab me until proven otherwise. - DOM

spheno died because the Vampirians, after failing a conversion attempt on MEM, opted to just take the permakill rather than attempt a conversion with I think it was ~37% immunity. That PJ didn't inform us of this until after EOD, so at that point we knew his team was basically done.

Which is fine with me because That PJ's maul combined with spheno's reveal (which totally threw me off course as to which faction had our traitor) really pissed me off.

-) Why didn't we (Sikrit) get our conversion as an option on Day 6? Rictus/Blindsniper/Simon were a three-person faction that we should have been able to convert from at that point, yes?

I believe that converted players were immune to conversion, although I can't be certain, simply because a twice-converted player could spy on two boards at once. That's just ridiculous. Blindsniper starts out the game immune along with Furin, and Rictus and Simon are both converts so they're also immune.

Rictus, why didn't you join the Hellheart train? That's how I "knew" you were the traitor. You should've been able to join that pile-on with perfect safety since you were Wasabeon (and not Nightis like I originally thought) and it would have helped insulate Simon from the last-minute switch you were all afraid of...

I can't be certain, but given Blindsniper's vote on Aldax I'm pretty sure they were really worried that your faction would end up with too much power. With Simon as a traitor they knew that I was a one-person team, so I wasn't any threat at all for their victory. Moreover, I wasn't getting PM"s from anybody so I had no allies either.

Honestly, I was surprised that Simon waited so long to switch if that were the actual plan. Lynching Aldax over me gives them a numbers advantage that would've been very hard to overcome, given that I was prepared to defend Simon against all comers.

The simple fact that Furin claimed he was a sociopath, but was revealed as a Human, should've set off all kinds of warning bells for you. The Nutjob won't be revealed as such until he's Permadead, because then nobody would revive him. Considering how important he was in the game as a bogeyman, it makes no sense for him to go down that easily.

Was taking away no-revive from the second revival day really necessary? With PMs to/from the revival targets available it seems like it would taking no-revive away would force the revival of the admitted sociopath (and nutjob) 100% of the time.

If MEM didn't override your maul of Furin on Day 2, Furin would be perma-dead. We didn't choose to revive Admetus on the first revival day, so that would've been the end of it. The simple fact is that you didn't have enough information; if you did, you would've known that either MaxFrost or That PJ would've been the best revivals because that puts my faction at 2 players (this assumes you somehow knew that Simon was a convert). That gives us enough votes that I'm worth approaching again.

Of course, that requires that you approach me in the first place and let me know that I was totally off on your player count and that I should be looking to actually survive instead of kill myself trying to stop a threat that didn't actually exist

Last edited by Hellheart on 29 May 2014, 21:12:38, edited 2 times in total.

Hellheart wrote:Of course, that requires that you approach me in the first place and let me know that I was totally off on your player count and that I should be looking to actually survive instead of kill myself trying to stop a threat that didn't actually exist

I might have done that if you hadn't set me up with ominpotent power and then immediately tried to get me killed. I was willing to at least tentatively work with you up until that point. After that it was just easier to have you squashed.

I kind of assume Okaros is out to backstab me until proven otherwise. - DOM

Hellheart wrote:Of course, that requires that you approach me in the first place and let me know that I was totally off on your player count and that I should be looking to actually survive instead of kill myself trying to stop a threat that didn't actually exist

I might have done that if you hadn't set me up with ominpotent power and then immediately tried to get me killed. I was willing to at least tentatively work with you up until that point. After that it was just easier to have you squashed.

Your lynch would have never worked, even before rekard clarified that we'd all lose. I needed to appear like I wasn't on your side in any case, but I really truly believed that you had the overwhelming numbers advantage. There's no way I'm going to stop freaking out if I think we're about to lose.

Things spiraled down really quickly after we lost That PJ, because he was a good reasoning counterbalance to me and a huge help and we only had him for a day. At that point, once it was clear to me that Zark probably wasn't interested in playing nice after sphenodont's reveal, I figured that it was a lost cause for us anyway.

I added an edit to my post above concerning Furin's lack of Nutjob reveal, if you missed it.

There was 0% chance of double parity since there were going to be three deaths. Lynch, maul and 1 or 2 vigs.

Furin's survival was luck based since the wolf psychopath saved him, and since Furin was all alone he needed a couple enhancements. I told everyone the nutjob was one player that was a danger to you all.

Saving the sociopath is just a demonstration of greed about trying to get ahead in the game.Dealing with a sociopath type character is always a double edged knife because that player will never tell you the full extent of its powers. And it never really pays out painlessly. You are subject to the whims of the sociopath who becomes a mercenary. The problem Okaros is that you thought you were using Furin. No, Furin was using you. Check other games where people ally with mercenaries. The mercenary ALWAAAAAAAAYS uses its allies and goes to the strongest side.

You fell into the fallacy of the sociopath being "weak". They are always some of the strongest because an alliance gives you an extra vote. At least with other players you know where they are aiming. With a sociopath, you never know and you can't control them. If players are greedy, yes, they will choose the sociopath 100% of the time. But that doesn't mean it's the right choice. It actually is the worst Okaros

In the end, a sociopath does NOT give benefits to you. In the Greed game, Clear won because of players greed and the apparent team implosion. In the Star TWG game, the Klingons that had allied with Hellheart ended up losing.In Clear's Mayhem game, Ozy almost won because players ignored his almost sociopathic status. In here, you let Furin live and it bit you in the butt.

The No Revival thing was only because Furin was among the dead. I honestly didn't think people would fall for a claimed sociopath. But it's to Furin's credit that he convinced you and appealed to your needs. That was a masterful play from Furin.

"-) Rictus, why didn't you join the Hellheart train? That's how I "knew" you were the traitor. You should've been able to join that pile-on with perfect safety since you were Wasabeon (and not Nightis like I originally thought) and it would have helped insulate Simon from the last-minute switch you were all afraid of..."

Hellheart wasn't the nutjob. We knew that. Our 3 targets (discussed on Night 5) should have been twdog, simple_simon, and 7-zark-7.

We had already wandered away from that with the Antipater vote on Day 5. Then the next day you went off on a tangent with Hellheart, and once I saw "Furin and Zark are both acting on instructions/deals with me," I decided I was tired of following your lead on every vote. You weren't working towards the goals of the Sekrit Spies.

So even if I was still a sekrit spy, I wouldn't have changed my vote. I think Hellheart was the wrong vote for that day.

-----------------One of my challenges in the game revolved around the nutjob. I could never connect the dots between my win condition and the nutjob.

Originally we were told "You are a secret faction. Win by getting parity with everyone else. Find the nutjob!"

The first problem (probably just for me) is that I got confused with psychopaths vs sociopath vs nutjob, etc. Even with FM calling himself a sociopath in his PM to Okaros, I never thought "He's the nutjob". If I recall, I was operating under the idea that each faction was hunting a different pyschopath. So Spies were looking for the nutjob, Rogues were looking for the anarchist, etc.

But even when we finally put it together... Ok, we found him. Now what?

How does killing him get us closer to winning? Since he was a single player, it made sense to ignore him unti the 2 person factions were trimmed down.

I had similar misconceptions regarding the Nutjob, Rictus. I even went on a big tangent near the end by thinking he might have actually been on a team. What threw me off the most was never thinking that the 5th nation could have just been one player. A conversion-only faction made sense, but since it never crossed my mind I couldn't really figure out how things ended up in the state they'd reached.

That said, I did make a lot of correct connections. With a bit of help/prodding, I would've realized that most everyone had 2 players and that the best course of action would be to wipe out the Nutjob. Especially since he was voting for me

Okaros wrote:Also, well-played Furin. I expected your betrayal, but that was not the delivery method I anticipated.

I did give serious consideration to seeing it through to the end despite my advantage. I could have saved my vig for Rictus or Aldax so the SSS couldn't achieve a victory. But ultimately I didn't trust that you wouldn't maul me in my sleep.

Also I've been in a couple alliances that ended with betrayal and for once I wanted to be the betrayer.

So it appears your endgame was to lynch twdog, maul Zark and then Day 9 would begin with a SSS victory? I'm having trouble keeping track of all of the conversions (is there a thread that summarizes it?) but I know there would have been two Sikrits, one traitor and one nutjob left.

FurinMirado wrote:So it appears your endgame was to lynch twdog, maul Zark and then Day 9 would begin with a SSS victory? I'm having trouble keeping track of all of the conversions (is there a thread that summarizes it?) but I know there would have been two Sikrits, one traitor and one nutjob left.

Yup, that was my plan for Day 8, and it all went accordingly until your vig shot.

Unfortunately, Rictus having a night-kill wasn't factored in so the *actual* result would have been a 1v1v1 between you, me, and Rictus. Wouldn't *that* have been an interesting standoff, eh?

I kind of assume Okaros is out to backstab me until proven otherwise. - DOM

FurinMirado wrote:So it appears your endgame was to lynch twdog, maul Zark and then Day 9 would begin with a SSS victory? I'm having trouble keeping track of all of the conversions (is there a thread that summarizes it?) but I know there would have been two Sikrits, one traitor and one nutjob left.

rekard wrote:In the Star TWG game, the Klingons that had allied with Hellheart ended up losing.

That loss had nothing to do with my Sociopath status; their loss was entirely due to a power that turned CAD's bonus votes against himself. At least one team had figured out that the Klingons controlled the majority of the mauls, and they were leading or tied for the lead in every lynch after CAD became the lone Spy. He couldn't have had any other allies, and turning on Furin was to his benefit because I offered an additional kill vector. Not to mention that it was a moot point because the vote-switching power was queue'd up to do the exact same thing anyway.

In fact, we could've outright won on that day had I targeted DOM instead of Visigoth the night prior and landed the coinflip, IIRC. My "unofficial" alliance with Visigoth, whom I only tried to kill because I thought DOM was the one with the nightkill protection, actually resulted in a win for him.

Yes, it did. Your association with the Klingons made them the target of everyone else. The sheer imbalance of that game changed consequences of the lynches, but the point is that you being with them influenced what other players voted for and who they wanted to maul. It made Furin use his imbalanced day protection powers and draw a maul unto him which he was immune to.

Either the sociopath betrays you or the rest of the players go against the allies.

You are completely misinterpreting what happened; perhaps you are mixing up "Spy" with "Sociopath." I was a little annoying fly compared to the mammoth levels of power the Klingons had after the remaining spies had been killed. And then I went several days without using my nightkill so they wouldn't just outright win.

Admit it, you're just butthurt because you got taken out immediately - supposedly because you came out against me early, but realistically because the Klingons knew you were immune to mauls and possibly also nightkills so it was critical that you got lynched.

Nope, me getting killed has no relation to the topic. Where do you get those ideas? I don't really understand how you really interpret these things; you assume too much . You need to see the big picture and are missing the point again. It's not about the powers people had, but the effect it had on players who didn't have perfect knowledge of the game. You as a sociopath was the cushion the Klingons needed and the rest of the factions had then to vote together against them to even have a chance to lynch a Klingon.

Furin had a power that made him practically immune to 2 day lynches on top of being immune to nightkills, which everyone agrees was really badly balanced. You being in a more open alliance with them also caused people to rally more against that faction. And hence, Furin had to spend his power to avoid the lynch.

Basically, what you are not getting is that you formed a 3 vote block which made that faction a threat to everyone where no one knew the powers of everyone else. As such, the Klingons were runner ups and lynched for 4 days straight AND were the targets of two mauls.As long as you were an ally, they were the targets of every lynch and power possible to kill them.

In the end, when you're with a sociopath, it gives you "strength". But then you are either betrayed by the socippath or everyone else goes against you because you are "stronger" because of association to the sociopath.