No on online taxes bill

It grieves me to agree with Republicans in the U.S. House, but I hope they kill the Web tax bill passed by the Senate.

The incentives for buying from a U.S. company on the Web are that I can buy from my home or office and I pay no sales tax. The disincentives are that I have to wait for my goods, I cannot see them in person before I buy, and I have to pay shipping.

The incentives to buy locally are that I get my goods right away, I can see them in person before I buy, and I don’t pay shipping. The disincentive is that I have to pay sales tax.

This bill, if it becomes law, means that I will no longer have an incentive to buy from U.S. companies over the Web. I’ll just buy over the Web from companies in China.

This bill will drive more business offshore.

Alan F. Blakley, Longmont

This letter was published in the May 8 edition.

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Awww, poor Alan Blakley has to pay sales tax. Oh, the horror! Imagine, supporting the governments that provide him services. Why, he’s an American, they should be at no cost!

3.141592

Nah, they are the government and people should pay taxes on everything! Why are people taking all our air for free!!! Freeloaders!! We know that air is a privilege in Colorado since we don’t have as much of it as they do at sea level. We just need to get more creative in what and how we tax.

peterpi

I hear tax collection is abysmal is Somalia.
You want services, but don’t want to pay for them.

primafacie

So, commerce is solely for the benefit of a taxing authority’s cash grab? And all this time, I thought it was a means for the exchange of goods and services for remuneration.

Thanks for setting it straight.

And pretend all you want that incentives don’t enter into the economic equation. Mr. Blakley presents a very real prospect for some online buyers. The rest will walk away from every transaction with the warm glow of having done their part to keep the street lights on.

peterpi

“Cash grab”, I like that.
You have no problem giving McDonald’s $4 for a Big Mac, but you can’t stand paying 32 cents so that Denver can provide police, fire, street maintenance, and other services?
When the lights go dark, I hope you enjoy how you cheated the government out of revenue.
You and Alan got yours, that’s all that matters, right?
The libertarians and the Nyquists are going to be the death of this country. As long as you got your guns, gold reserves, and food stores, to hell with everyone else.

primafacie

Who told you about my gold? Dang, may need a new hiding place…

It seems your idea of an economy is that it starts from the state, and we all “benefit” from what the state lets the people do with it. Of course, that’s not how this economy became the most prosperous, inventive and industrious in the world. It IS, however, how other economies failed.

The issue isn’t 32 cents — on a single golf ball, if that’s all it is; I buy by the dozen, and tax runs a tad higher than that — but rather yet another mandate on business, no matter how small. We used to be about removing hurdles from economic activity, so that more economic activity happens and personal wealth is created, not erecting them.

peterpi

We’ll have to disagree.
You see taxes or government as a hurdle.
I see taxes or government as as much a part of society as TopFlite golf balls or Chevy Corvettes or Chevron or WalMart.

toohip

and I see taxes and gov’t as a slippery slope when I see how much of my patriotic-duty taxes go towards defense, supporting banks and big business, and all the other right-wing agendas. And I realize the “usual suspects” feel equally about their taxes going to help the poor, provide health care, education, and food and shelter. The issue isn’t with the taxes per say, but what they’re used for.

dough

I see that you all of the standard talking points down with “cash grab”, “mandates on business” and “hurdles from economic activity”. Seems like you have read all the conservative blogs.
However, a civilized society demands a standard of living that includes services like fire protection , streets and infrastructure and even an elected body to deal with common problems.
So ,I don’t know why people think these things should all be free. Part of creating your personal wealth is that you don’t have to pay for your own fire truck or private security. Our system buys these in bulk for our common use. Instead of ranting about Cash Grabs, why don’t you be thankful that we live in a society that thinks these are important parts of our life and that you should be happy to pay your share. It is for your own good.

peterpi

Thank you, dough! Bravo/a!

primafacie

I see you have all of the standard talking points down with “civilized society” and “people think these things should be free” and “pay your share” for things I didn’t argue against paying for.

peterpi

You argue all the time about what a tyrannical burden taxes are, how they amount to forced giving (“theft” is the word most often used amongst informed libertarian circles), etc.
You don’t begrudge Burger King or amazon.com or Potteryplanters Inc. for the charges for their goods and services, yet you begrudge any fee paid to provide government services that the majority approve of, whether directly through the ballot or through their city, state, or national representatives.
Well, maybe I don’t like the death penalty execution chamber, or the too-numerous (IMHO) Minuteman III ICBM missiles or the law enforcement associated with the Patriot Act, but I live here, so my taxes go towards their upkeep, just like you may not like Social Security or the Dept. of Health and Human Services, but your taxes go to maintain those.
And, how well would your ever-benevolent corporations and free markets thrive here in the US of A without a stable government which those dreaded detestable taxes fund?
I’m going to repeat: Mr. Blakley would rather pay taxes on goods ordered from China, run by a totalitarian regime, rather than pay taxes here.
I would argue commerce and industry started thriving in Europe, and later transported to the nascent English colonies, precisely when stable governments arose, creating some semblance of peaceful living, allowing cities to form, who could then provide a decent environment for businesses to thrive in.

Guest

I have to respectfully disagree with your line of reasoning here Peterpi. The reason I give Burger King $4 for a Whopper is because I choose to, when I want one. I’m not forced to pay for a Whopper I neither need nor want. No one regardless of political affiliation is arguing against funding the government through taxes for things like the police, fire fighters, road maintenace, etc. That is simply a straw-man.

Whats telling to me is how you claim that conservatives think they are entitled to these services, but don’t want to pay for them. Sorry, but nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, its liberals who view the government as this omnibenevolent, almoner of gifts to the people that often believe they are entitled to whatever they wish for the government to provide, but often, themselves do not want to pay for. This is done by pulling on the emotional strings of jealousy and guilt by claiming that the rich aren’t paying their “fair share” or that they don’t care about poor people. Nevermind that no one can define what exactly a fair share is other than some arbitrary percentage pulled out of thin air that “sounds fair” to those doing the accusing.

Why should I be forced to pay for something I don’t believe is necessary nor believe that government has any business providing in the first place? Because many people believe they are entitled to it and want others to pay for it.

toohip

Guest, I know straw man arguments. This is not a straw man argument because it’s directly related. The “choice” buy a whopper is not the same as the “choice” to pay the associated taxes with that purchase.

What’s a straw man argument is this familiar rant from your species that blindly and absolutely criticizes ANY taxes or ANY government intervention in your life,. . while at the same time you accept ANY gov’t service. Your god, Ayn Rand, who railed against gov’t entitlements especially SS and Medicare. . . readily accepted both in her life. It’s what we call the “hypocrisy of the right,” that we see every day, whether it’s taxes and gov’t, gun rights, gay rights, etc. No one uses the straw man argument more than the right and the usual suspects here on this forum.

And here’s another fact, not straw man deflection. . no group operates on “belief” more than your ilk. How else would you come up with the statement “why should I be forced to pay for something I don’t BELIEVE is necessary!” You see, it’s not about your belief or a minority belief. It’s not even always about a “majority belief” (read “Romer vs Evans Amendment 2), that tries to supersede our constitutional rights. It’s about our society that operate in a democratic fashion to agree what a responsible citizenry is responsible to have a responsible goverment, and what a government is responsible to it’s citizens for. Simple “belief” or disagreement, don’t really factor in that simply as you suggest.

Guest

Apparently you do not. The straw man I was referring to was this argument that I or anyone else doesn’t want to pay for police, firefighters, road maintenance, etc.

As for the rest of your post, saying things like “your species” and “your god, Ayn Rand…”, your completely misleading and out of context reference to my use of the word “believe” and the fact that you BELIEVE things like Social Security, Medicare, Obamacare, Obamaphones, etc are a “constitutional right”, makes it apparent you really don’t have clue. Liberals like you are reminiscent of bratty children, crying and throwing a fit every time their told they can’t have something regardless of the reason.

But keep running with your victimization mentality (a tactic straight out of the liberal playbook). Its amusing.

peterpi

People like Blakley see sales taxes as disincentives for buying local goods. Why pay sales taxes, if you all can get goods somewhere else?
OK, exactly how do you and the Blakleys of this country expect to pay for police, fire, road maintenance services if you’re so intent on not paying sales taxes?

toohip

Once again, Guest or guest, you don’t know what a straw man argument is. . .look it up. . .http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man You can deny you never said you don’t want to pay for “police or . . firefighters, road maintenance, etc.”. . but you state otherwise in examples here, ad naseam .

I use the synonym “species” instead of “ilk” so not to offend you. ;o)
I don’t “believe” anything about SS, Medicare, or Obamacare,. . I quote FACTS Guest/guest because I check them out, not get my “facts” from Fox News and Rush like you do. Want to challenge me on the facts on this? Anytime! And you’re little childish interpretation of liberals, clearly demonstrates your own childishness.
If you can’t argue rationally, Guest, and have to use irrational arguments. . at least get them right. As a conservative you want the free market to run everything, but secretly don’t want to have to pay for it, so you’re “OK” with paying for police and fire, because you now you couldn’t afford these services if they were privatize and YOU need them. But when it comes to something that OTHERS need or get from the gov’t that you “believe” you won’t need or will never use, or can pay for yourself, then you want to rant about waste of tax payer money. Same song and dance.

The Scorekeeper

When did they start selling Whoppers on the internet?

toohip

dare to dream! (double whoppers only!)

peterpi

I can order pizzas, sub sandwiches, other restaurant food delivered or to go online, why not a Whopper?
If it helps your comprehension, substitute books, garden supplies, golf clubs, SUVs, etc.

The Scorekeeper

Do you order them and have them shipped from out of state? (pizzas, subs, other restaurant food, etc.)

When the lights go out I will thank the libs for making us give up reliable fossil fuels for unreliable solar and wind energy.

Otherwise, I don’t think what I buy on line from out of state is going to cause the lights to go out in Colorado.

toohip

Well when you put it like that. . . .! Good job peter. I don’t like paying taxes, or more taxes, but your speech makes me feel good when I do. Honest. I’ll try to remember it when that weight-loss herbal formula creme cost me an extra 7.38%! ;o)

toohip

Clearly the “value” in purchasing on line is the bottom line – price. While they don’t have the overhead of local businesses, they do have to include shipping that makes the price higher. This also supports the shipping business, and USPS, UPS, and other shipping companies are booming due to this new internet sales. We buy enough stuff that we have something coming to the door at least a couple times a month. Will added taxes kill this un-leveled playing field that supports the internet sales business? Internet sales is a business too, and the “mom and pop store” sentiments have never found the liberal in me.

ThePyro

Uhhhhh…Did you forget that you’re already supposed to be paying internet sales tax, Mr. Blakely? Oh right, since you have to pay them yourself, you’ve conveniently “forgotten”.

www(dot)colorado(dot)gov/cs/Satellite/Revenue/REVX/1187858027372

The Scorekeeper

That only applies if the seller is also in Colorado. What the Senate passed was to make all sales on the internet taxable.

ThePyro

ALL Sales, regardless of the location of purchase, even if it isn’t in this country.

Quoted from the web page cited:
“If you are buying from a vendor not located in Colorado, you will probably not pay sales tax to the seller, but you must pay use tax directly to the State of Colorado.”

The Scorekeeper

I’m assuming all of you folks who want to have this tax passed are paying sales taxes when you buy something at a garage sale.

ThePyro

I didn’t say I wanted it passed – as far as us Coloradans are concerned, that decision has already been made for us. Regardless of what happens at the Federal level, we’re still subject to the State law and are supposed to be paying State taxes on internet sales.

Now, whether or not anyone’s actually abiding by the State law is a whole other discussion…

toohip

ouch! Good one Pyro. Just like Pyro claims every “gift,” cash or otherwise or any thing received as income to declare on his taxes! ;o)

ThePyro

The only “gifts” I get outside normal income streams come from the neighbor’s dog onto my lawn…and I’d love to include some of THAT on my tax forms.

toohip

Sounds like a deduction!

peterpi

Blakley, and others here, will probably whine something like:
[When ordering online from a pink flamingo lawn ornament company in Tampa, FL]
To the FL officials: “Why, I live in Denver CO! Why should I pay sales taxes to a municipality in FL?”
To the CO officials: “Sure I live here, but I bought it from a FL store! Why should I pay sales taxes here in CO?”
They’ve perfected this soft-shoe double-step shell game routine in other areas of taxation.
They consider paying taxes to be a personal insult, a blotch on the family honor, a damper on their freedom. It ruins their whole day, while they walk on the public sidewalks, drive on the public streets, report a theft to the public police, want fires put out by the public fire dept., expect the FBI or Defense Dept. to protect them from harm, foreign or domestic, etc..

Hankalish

Perfect response to Mr. Blakely!!!

dough

Alan, Spoken like a true member of the ” What’s in it for me” club. Just remember to call someone in China when your house catches on fire. I wonder where we would all be if the original pioneers that settled Colorado had your same attitude.

toohip

oooooh, good name for that club!

peterpi

Back in England whining about the Church and the King/Queen.

toohip

Does the bill only tax sales on non-U.S. sales or all sales? And how do we know these internet sales companies are turning over the taxes to the appropriate gov’t.?

johnrpack

Here it comes — we’re going to let each state tax other state’s business. You know, people who don’t get a vote — and who aren’t represented. Can you say “taxation without representation?”
If you want to know what will happen, just look at hotel room taxes. Because those paying the taxes have little or no control, the cities and states ramp up these taxes frequently — and keep them at obscene levels.
What will happen when every taxing jurisdiction in the US puts its own tax rate on the little business in Colorado? We’ll shut down the one part of our economy that’s doing well.

mrfxx

46 out of the 50 states have what is called a “use tax”, which is essentially self-reporting of purchases made online, over the phone or by catalog from remote sellers. It is illegal to NOT report those purchases (I believe in Colorado, the minimum purchase amount on which taxes MUST be reported is $500) and the state sales tax remitted. The problem is that the majority of these tax CHEATS cannot be tracked without the assistance of the sellers – although I hope the Colorado Department of Revenue will be looking into Mr. Blakley’s returns – unless of course he can PROVE that the deliveries of the goods he purchased were made entirely without using any Colorado infrastructure!

peterpi

I agree that they are tax cheats, and an entire influential movement of a major political party assists them in their feeling justified and sanctimonious about it.
Blakley would rather pay Chinese taxes hidden in the price of the goods, than pay US taxes tacked on afterwards.

johnrpack

I’d feel a lot better about paying taxes if that money were used in a reasonable, sane, responsible manner. But I’m not to keen to give the government more money that they can hand over to their campaign donors.

Keep in mind that the $1.5 trillion stimulus we’ve been spending each of the past five years hasn’t helped the economy one bit — but it has lined the pockets of doners very nicely. It’s a good time to be a labor union or Democrat donor.

ThePyro

Spot on, mrfxx.

A minor correction for Colorado – the Department of Revenue requires that you track all purchases, do the math on their form and if you have to pay $300 or more in taxes, you have to submit the payment. Apparently, anything less than that isn’t worth their time to process…How’s that for an eye toward Government efficiency?

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