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Heimerdinger rework on PBE today

Frankly I feel we've hit a dead end as far as balance feedback is concerned.

The passive at least can still get some work.

I share the huge desire to see Heimerdinger balanced as viable, but we can't simply discuss it until we find his balanced state. That isn't enough :[

Notice that the number of unique posters has dropped as the thread has gone on. Looking at the posts concerned with balance, we actually see a very small number of players having these concerns, interspersed with a larger number of less motivated players who perceive him to be average or higher strength.

This is exactly what I'd expect to see. People who think their champion is weak are waaaaay more motivated to talk about it, post analysis, etc.

At the end of the day, balance doesn't come from a forum. You guys are doing great work in bringing me your data, perceptions, and analysis. I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask for your trust in balancing Heimerdinger--I will do everything in my power to see Heimerdinger viable mid, but I can't simply take your word and make it law.

Yeah, I've been thinking about buffing their sight radius when shut down. Not all the way up to their full vision, but something like shaco box / teemo shroom type vision.

Would it be considered to OP to let them stay active with a reduced sight radius and maybe reduced damage / longer cooldown on shots etc? If their being compared to teemo shrooms and shaco boxes which can fend for themselves so to speak.

For example give them the radius of an activated shaco box, Lower the guns attack speed for not being in range of it, Decrease the damge of the laser (Or increase the time it takes to fire / fire again?)

I share the huge desire to see Heimerdinger balanced as viable, but we can't simply discuss it until we find his balanced state. That isn't enough :[

Notice that the number of unique posters has dropped as the thread has gone on. Looking at the posts concerned with balance, we actually see a very small number of players having these concerns, interspersed with a larger number of less motivated players who perceive him to be average or higher strength.

This is exactly what I'd expect to see. People who think their champion is weak are waaaaay more motivated to talk about it, post analysis, etc.

At the end of the day, balance doesn't come from a forum. You guys are doing great work in bringing me your data, perceptions, and analysis. I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask for your trust in balancing Heimerdinger--I will do everything in my power to see Heimerdinger viable mid, but I can't simply take your word and make it law.

I can't balance from reasoning alone. I need data ^^

You guys are doing a rockstar job with balance. Full faith in you.

Still curious about his passive tho. Not concerned about balance, just curious if/what it's base mechanic will be changed to.

Indeed. I personally have faith the design team will do a good job of achieving overall balance in the end. Values on his existing abilities will be tweaked, people will cheer and whine, yadda yadda yadda.

However, the talk of changing the core mechanic of his passive,,,,, that topic is far more interesting.

Indeed!

The challenge is thus: Hit these points below as well or better than the current passive. I should also point out that this is according to my own completely biased judgment, but that I'm very strongly motivated on this front. Difficulty of implementation is not a concern, I can throw my hours at this until it's solved.

Bear in mind also that this is more of a 'bonus objective' as far as Heimer is concerned. Gameplay-wise the current passive does good work, it's more about making it feel cooler.

So with that out of the way, here's the goals!

Low mindshare cost: Heimerdinger already has a huge amount to pay attention to, the passive should 'just work' without him having to babysit it

Low power budget: Heimerdinger's identity is strongly tied to his turrets and active skills, weakening them for a passive is (probably) a poor trade

More awesome than current: Self-explanatory

Good for recovering from mistakes: I'd prefer passives with a gameplay goal of this type, but I'm open to other options here

tbh, his passive is really just boring. You liked the HP5 when under 65% HP, what about having Heimer's passive be: "Increase health regeneration of allies in [bigish number] range by 1% for each 1% missing HP." (i.e. Veigar passive, but an aura and for health)

idk, but having an overly-simplistic passive doesn't seem right for Heimer. I know you want to keep mindshare low, but the effect should at least be more interesting.

EDIT: Maybe have it be more like a spectre's cowl passive in aura form. Like every time an ally in a given range takes champion damage, give X HP5 for Y seconds. I think this would especially help support Heimer more than miderdinger.

tbh, his passive is really just boring. You liked the HP5 when under 65% HP, what about having Heimer's passive be: "Increase health regeneration of allies in [bigish number] range by 1% for each 1% missing HP." (i.e. Veigar passive, but an aura and for health)

idk, but having an overly-simplistic passive doesn't seem right for Heimer. I know you want to keep mindshare low, but the effect should at least be more interesting.

I like this type of thing in theory, but in practice it ends up with Heimer getting bursted hardcore, especially given ignite's heal reduction.

I've got you guys set up to spin on passive ideas for a while--feel free to discuss with each other, especially with regards to knowledge-sharing about passives we talked about earlier in the thread. It's not reasonable to expect other people to read this threadnaught, haha xD

I'm gonna be diving into the rest of the Heimer bugs now, my posts will be slower for a while as I deal with the results of the bug sweep. I'll be reading every post and replying to some, but I don't think I can maintain the crazy pace of replies. It's been fun and awesome, though. I'd take a couple days to post a million times again in a heartbeat, more communication with players = better than ^^

EDIT: Maybe have it be more like a spectre's cowl passive in aura form. Like every time an ally in a given range takes champion damage, give X HP5 for Y seconds. I think this would especially help support Heimer more than miderdinger.

Ooo, I'll need to think about this but at first blush I quite like it. It doesn't do as well when Heimer is behind, but it's more appreciable and kinda cool.