Wow, great idea for a league. I agree it is a stupid/immature name. The club has become more than just a tournament organization. Money, Courses, politics, and sponsors are necessary little evils of the growth.

Players Only League serves your purpose. If its not about the cliche name, then why not use something else?

Disc Up,Meanwhile back at the ranch.... I love the idea of another traveling singles league in the area. The idea might take a while to catch on (remember DFL's attempt), new leagues can go slow for a while. The LAKERS had a number of times in the early years (2 decades ago) when I would win the round only because I was the only LAKER that showed up at the course. I do not understand the whining over the name or misunderstanding of the name, the LAKERS have a number of binkies for anyone who needs them. I mean come on guys, we call ourselves a disc golf community but sometimes we bicker like a discfunctional family. The league I play in is called "The Traveling LAKERS", nothing to do with disc, disc golf, or the RCF and I am the only one who lives by a lake. A name is only a name, nothing else. A golf disc by any other name is still a golf disc.

jhenson wrote:Wow, great idea for a league. I agree it is a stupid/immature name. The club has become more than just a tournament organization. Money, Courses, politics, and sponsors are necessary little evils of the growth.

Players Only League serves your purpose. If its not about the cliche name, then why not use something else?

It is not about the name, it could be called the whoopie cushion league, it is about the ability to do what we want, independently. This league is starting because a number of people do not like how the club is being run, tournaments included. It is not a rogue club, it is simply a league that focuses on people getting together on a regular basis and enjoying a competitive format with 100% of their buy in going to the payout. The point is that this league will survive because there are more than enough people that are unhappy with the current administration. No names were called until this reached a level of "out of control" through censorship and attempted control. Reasons it will succeed...1) consistent format2) not watered down with gimmicks3) always the same price4) no surprises on event morning5) reward the people that help make it possible6) no side agenda, or conflict of interest, just golf7) the only price is buy in (no membership, no charge for water, beer, discs we don't want, etc)8) rotating courses

And, though I understand your point about necessary evils, there is no place in volunteer organizations (like this) for side agendas, conflicts of interest, or control. With a membership base like ours, a successful leader has to ride the wave and let it break where it may, not try to control everything. This is but 1 problem that has been brought up to me numerous times. Not just by members, but also by the volunteers that are being, manipulated, lied to and turned out because they don't fit into the agenda.

Besides, this doesn't really have anything to do with me, I am not the owner, ambassador, or runner of the league, I'm just the one that volunteered to make a flyer and put it online. Not to mention the only one dumb enough to continue arguing with a brick wall. Chris, you want a good example of my way or the highway attitude, you better take a look in the mirror.

I'll see those of you that want to enjoy this new league on the 27th at CC, until then, if there are problems, they are problems that are being created by a man that wants to control everything, but can't.

PS: If I had a facebook account, this never would have happened, but I don't believe in it, so I had to use the best avenue available to advertise to the target audience. I did not know this was going to turn into a political mud slinging event

Jeff I could not agree with you more about all of the gimmicks thrown out there during RCF events. I remember when you could buy in for $20 bucks and you were in for everything. But like you said now its extra for ace pool, CTP, and all the other stuff. My favourite was the pro and am buy in so there would be better payouts. I placed in events and seen no change in payouts.

As for the P.O.T. league it is a great idea. The name is looking for criticism. Myself I could care less, but who am I. I’m just here to play golf and have a good time with good people.

Chris don’t take this the wrong way but in my opinion you did over step your place in this issue. The main reason is because this has nothing to do with the RCF. Jeff stated his reasons for the new league suggestions in the first post. I do understand that the RCF are constantly dealing with the county board, etc. and that the name stands out like a sore thumb on this site, but if the name of the league is presented to the board in its full form and not by the acronym there shouldn’t be a problem.

Jeff that being said be the bigger man and come up with another name a lets put all of the B.S. behind.

This really is stupid.

P.S. I think this league will be a success no matter what it is called. Count me in.

eupher61 wrote:Simple, honest question: Just how are "pros" cast out? Every event has payout, EVEN THE CHARITY EVENTS!

That, to me, is the silly part. TaTa payouts? Ice Bowl payouts? They are charity events....sheesh.

Why not play MPO or MPM in sanctioned events and show your game?

To me, the name was a problem because of perceptions. calling it P.O.T. is a totally different matter, that shows there is a meaning behind it.

But, why the name calling? Why the insults? Grow up, Jeff, and be part of the solution, not part of the problem.

steve

No offense Steve, but I'm not sure you've considered everything that is at play here and I think you're looking at this from an ameture's point of view. Every disc golfer hopes to get something out of events and leagues. Some people are just looking for fun, others want a payout, while others are just looking to get away from their wife & kids for a few hours of down time. The things that is most enticing to most pros is the payout, especially touring pros (its their livelyhood)Charity Events: While they are nice to raise money for worthwhile organizations, they are not very appealing to all pros, because there is no payout. Adding something like a side superpro buy-in is an incentive for them to come out and play the event, because they can win something while donating to a good cause. This is a necessary evil, but a win-win since the club gets to increase numbers for the event and the pros still win something more than bragging rights (which don't pay the bills).The pros have been turned out because of the payout schedule. Again, the most enticing event to most pros is one that has a good payout, including added cash. When you offer beer, lunch, CTPs, 50/50s etc, that all takes away from the payout because everything costs money. In order for the club to be successful and cater to ALL its members, there has to be different types of events. 3 PDGA sanctioned events/year is not enough for the competitive golfer that is looking for tough competition and good payouts. The RCF runs close to 20 events/year and most of them are aimed at the amateur or casual golfer, which is why I say the pros have been cast out. Instead of advertising the event as "fun" try including a couple events where "competition" is the goal and format. This means, there is not food, no ctps, no beer, or anything else that takes up additional time or detracts from the payout. Instead, take all the money that would be spent on that type of stuff and add it to the pro pot (sorry payout).Pros pay the same $20 as everyone else to join the club and should be treated as equal members, meaning they should have events that cater to their wants. In fact, the AMs are the don't show up to every event. But, Pros come out almost every week, buy into the tournament (which the RCF makes money off of) and still don't get treated equally. Most pros don't care if the win a CTP and get another Gateway putter (to add to the dozens they already have) They don't care if there is beer available because they want to play to the top of their game and try to win. They may even bring their own lunch so they know what to expect in round 2. The point is that almost all events (including the PDGA sanctioned events) are catered to amateur players and this league finally caters to the pros wants. It is a numbers game, there are more amateurs than pros, but that shouldn't mean that we don't deserve events that cater to us, Hell, they are a lot easier to run, you just show up, take money and make the cards. You don't even need merchandise because most pros have mre plastic than they know what to do with.This league is very simple, predictable, all money goes to payout, etc. We don't waste a ton of money or time on the payout and presentation of CTP etc. And, to address the last part of your post, I called Chris a fascist because he is trying to control something that is out of his jurisdiction. This league has nothing to do with the RCF, other than advertising on the message board to its members. Oviously, there is an interest in this league since this thread is less than a week old and already has close to 200 views. Try to take a step back from the situation and think about what type of reaction you would have if Chris tried to tell you that euper61 was an unacceptable screen name. What if your name was eupher69 (because you were born in 1969?) Should that matter, or are people only going to associate that with a negative/sexual conotation? Where is the line, what is over the line, who is to decide?

And, lets not forget that Chris is the one that had a special and seperate design for tags 420 and 421 and made a big deal of holding them back until an event. That fact annoys me even more that he is on my case about this acronym...

I’ll stay out of this pissing contest for the most part since none of this should really be on a public forum in the first place.

I hope the league goes well. If that’s what the pros want then have at it. I do think it’s a terrible name though or at least could be depending on what the flyer looks like. If the flyer in any way had P.O.T. offset from the rest of the wording then I would never post it at QR. I would think some of the other individuals that post flyers at the courses wouldn’t either. It doesn’t make sense to me to have advertising that won’t be able to reach all players. Get me a “parks dept” friendly flyer and I’ll be glad to get it posted at QR.

you don't understand that there's no reason for name calling and childish behavior. I agree with Magic that it shouldn't have gone to this public forum at all.

Why am I involved? Because I want to be part of a thriving, growing, energetic, and happening disc golf scene.The Club is the best method to help that scene. But, infighting, temper tantrums, name calling, and feuding are not the answer.

You want more money? Pay more to join the Club. Pay more to enter the tournaments. Get more players out to the tournaments. Why aren't you registered for the Endi Open yet? You can pay the $10 PDGA fee and play, since you aren't a PDGA member. I'd guess, offhand, there are 50 sanctioned tournaments within a few hours' drive of St Louis, some are two days things, yes, which is more expense. But, if you want to be a true pro, and make money, you aren't going to do it playing local events no matter how many there are. You know well that the competition is always higher at sanctioned events, there's just plain more at stake. If it's truly the competition plus the money that you want, there's the answer.

What really gets me is the charity events. OK...I'm a musician. If I get a call from the Fight the Blithering Idiot Association to play for their fundraiser, I expect to be paid. If I'm attending the Fight the Blithering Idiot Association fundraiser, it's in order to help them raise money. I don't expect to win money or anything from the FBIA, or whomever is hosting the event. The idea of charity is to give, not to take while giving.

Every dollar taken from the donation is that much less to pay the operating expenses of the charity...um, to help the charity's cause. $5 a person doesn't sound like much, but $500 is. Even $100 is. here are lots of people who play charity events for charity. Not around here, because the precedent has been set. To me, that's unbelievable. Check this out: http://kcfdc.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/disc-golf-flyer-2011-1.jpgYes, there are lots of "pro" players who play this event, and others for other charities there. They play for fun, and to help the charity. And, there are several PDGA member pros who play them, too, NOT because they'll get paid out, but because they want the fun and the competition. But, what they do have is great door prizes. The winners get trophies. That's all. But, everyone who plays stands a chance at some good stuff. Stuff that was donated for that purpose, to help raise the money. The cash stays with the charity.

Big difference.

Yes, I play only as an amateur. But I've had plenty of interaction with pro players, local and national. Most "pro" players are only local pros, when it comes to sanctioned events they play Am. I have no problem with that at all. But they're also unselfish enough to help when asked, like playing a charity event, or working on a course, or helping with some other event to help the club or the area.

It all comes about into one thing: We're here to play disc golf, yes, but unless someone builds a private course, we're at the whim of the government agencies. If we don't band together to give disc golf a good reputation, we may as well pack it in. With a lot of people doing a little, we can accomplish more than a few doing a lot. Cooperation. You don't have to like me, or the club officers, or anyone else. Just don't work against anyone who has the same basic wants as you.

Huh, this topic is a disappointment. I'm actually even uncertain whether I should post here or not... but here I go.

I'm totally new to the club, so my opinion on the name of a league and the bad history between members doesn't amount to squat... so I won't offer it. I'll just say, "I don't see why this conversation is taking place in the public portion of the forum... unless it is so that as many people as possible will see it and take sides."

Could I convince everyone who is not posting about joining this league (but rather posting to continue the arguement) to take it to PM's, please? That way, people like me, who are just looking for fun DG events and leagues they can play in, only have to read about information on a league they could join and not be exposed to the personal feuds and this ugly side of club politics.

I just want to help keep the courses open, free, clean and maintained, so I sure hope I don't get on anyone's bad side for making this suggestion.

Steve, If it wasn't obvious before now, we have vastly different ideas on this, and a number of other topics as well. With all the talent and resources here in St. Louis, I should not have to travel to find good competition or events structured on competition. And, if given my choice, I do not want to commit my whole weekend, or even half my weekend to disc golf tournaments. It is but a small part of my life that I enjoy for competition, recreation and exercise. I think you have the wrong idea, I am not a pro, or have any delusions of being a pro. I'm not looking to make a living playing disc golf. I work for my money and play disc golf for fun. I just have a different idea of what constitutes as fun. Again, when it comes to disc golf, I want to get in, play and get out so I can still have part of my day or weekend left over to work on my house, sped time with my wife and friends, yard work, etc, etc. But the events now have so many gimmicks and maintenance that it takes forever and the day is gone by the time I get home. Again, I'm looking for an in and out and don't want to sit around between rounds or after to get my payout. I think we'd both save time and effort agreeing to disagree from here because going back and forth on this is a waste of time and bandwidth. I understand where you are coming from and choose to disagree so no amount of re-wording is going to convince me of your point. I've said it before & I'll say it again, "I would pay to play if courses charged a greens fee."

To answer Andy, The league flyer has no illegal connotations what so ever. In fact, the only image on the the flyer is a watermark of a Phoenix, rising from the ashes of destruction.