When you come into your own as an expat in South Korea, it’s easy to forget about North Korea. Life here is blessed compared to the economically-deprived west. Our basic needs are met: food, shelter and medical care.

Most foreigner jobs provide housing, a decent monthly salary, pension, severance and medical insurance. After household bills, contributions to savings, and/or paying off debt, there is usually more than enough money left over to eat and drink to our hearts’ content, shop as we please, and travel extensively.

Many of us from the U.S. secretly share the opinion that going home would be more horrifying than living with the constant North Korean threat. Back home there is: Lack of health care, lack of employment, high cost of living and, the dreaded, living with the parents. These points keep us happily settled in the ROK.

That was my mantra for many years. But when you actually throw in the taegukgi, you think your life is going from 5th to 1st, and it feels like it’s going to make you lose control and crash, but then when you start shifting back up again you realize you have an extra gear. Oh yeah.

hoju_saram

She’s afraid of going home because she’ll have difficulty finding work. The problem is the longer she stays in the ROK, the less employable she will be when she eventually goes home.

I do feel for many Americans though with their health care and education costs.

Cloudfive

Re: some statistics that define Korea

This David Slatter is such an improvement on the Korea Beat guy. The latter had an odor of Neffism about him.

37 Degrees

Quite enjoyed the movie. Acting quite poor – a little too melodramatic. Special effects low-grade too. Costume design seemed ‘budget’ (was this a historic drama)? Like how they wear toasters on their head. No nudity. 3/5.

yangachibastardo

The drinking to heart content part is true and as i’m not particularly interested in the 76 virgins (or were they 78 ?) that alone pretty much comes down to my definition of Heaven

http://profiles.google.com/dcmusicfreak DC Musicfreak

Poor, clueless April. Check back when you try to collect that ROK pension.

http://twitter.com/Sinister_Seoul Sinister

That ‘naughty Brit’ is very amusing indeed. Enjoy your buildings pretending to be in Europe, your ‘snow coffee’ and ‘yummy birds’ you yankee imperialist scumbags!

wangkon936

That is true. But, then it is all the more important for them to have a better attitude about Korea, learn more of the language, understand and appreciate the culture, develop more networks with Koreans, push forward opportunities, etc. instead of waste their time pissing on Korea in the blogsphere while IN Korean.

dogbertt

Well said.

cm

In fairness though, SK’s opportunity for foreigners to advance into career to middle and top managements are pretty limited. Think of the typical Western foreigner worker in Korea – English teacher working for a language institute – they will never advance any further. Therefore their careers are nonexistent, forcing many of them to leave Korea (even though they are happy in Korea), or face a long term stunted career prospects. I can also understand their frustrations. They are perennial guests of the country. South Korea would have arrived if it can utilize the many talents and experiences that foreigners bring to Korea and offer them career prospects that will be attractive for them to stay.

pawikirogii

‘Hahaha…. April Salchert makes (South) Korea sound like a freak’in paradise.’ wangkon
here’s a question: why do women seem to enjoy korea so much more? i’ve seen enough korea blogs run by ladies and they just seem so much more adjusted to korea than the males are. in their blogs, they usually talk about what they did or are going to do. they don’t seem to spend their complaining. why the difference?

Horace Jeffery Hodges

Women are generally more flexible than men and pick up languages faster, and most women whom I’ve spoken with feel that Korea is safer than many other countries, but I’m speaking of Westerner women, and I know that non-Western women have other opinions.

I think if a foreigner was to advance far in Korea they would need to bring some kind of special skill into the country that has to be more than just the ability to speak English.

That would be the same anywhere. An immigrant that comes to America without any marketable skills or English skills will probably have a low wage job someplace. IMHO, English “teachers” that come into Korea are lucky when compared to other laborers that go to other countries.

wangkon936

I see no difference other than their lack of sex with the opposite sex.

wangkon936

Women also handle loss of status better. They can start over with less of an ego than men.

ChuckRamone

The psychology of the foreign women in Korea that you’re describing reminds of this article about being Asian American:

that’s one thing i HATE about living in los angeles. there’s just no snow coffee anywhere!

imememememe

i don’t know about that. i see a lot of korean companies investing a ton of money here and it might improve her chance to go work for one of them or anyone doing business with them if she can speak the language.

healthcare and education costs are some seriously f’d up issues, however. and it’s only going to get worse with obamacare. hell, it already is getting worse.

wangkon936

Yes, Wesley Yang does seem rather bitter, doesn’t he?

Cloudfive

tl;dr From skimming the article and having previously read his piece on Amy Chua’s book, my take on Wesley Yang is that he has serious ISSUES and hope that he has a really good therapist. As a former New Yorker and former Woody Allen fan, I also kept thinking “self-hating Jew”… does that make sense to anyone?

Perhaps he can adopt a white girl and later marry her, to overcome some of his angst.~~~

ESL teachers in Korea are mostly male, this is because most western
women LEAVE after their first contract or even after a few months. This
is for many reasons, but Korean sexism and the ubiquitous Korean sex
industry have to be on the list for many of them. While this state of
affairs is (at least in the short-term) a net benefit for Western men, the women who stay have made
more of a conscious decision to tolerate it. That’s why the tone of
their blogs is far less political.

bumfromkorea

They have never been treated as a minority their entire lives and their minds revolt (consciously or unconsciously) at that proposition. Thus, there must be something inherently unfair about Korea because Korea hasn’t embraced them.

I love how Wangkon addressed Bob Bobbs’ “point” 4 hours before he posted the actual comment.

Bob Bobbs

Wangkon is talking abou the psychology of western men, but I’m talking about the women. I am agreeing with Pawi about western women being better adjusted to Korea than the men, but pointing out that it’s hard to determine what western women think about Korea because very few of them stay. If you think that the reasons for this are not asI have stated, I am happy to hear what you think.

pawikirogii

i’d like to c some statistics before i believe what you wrote. i think wnagkons response was spot on though you as a white guy might disagree.

Yu Bum Suk

“I think a lot of these male ETs are going through something vaguely similar.”

Actually it’s often quite the opposite. I get treated like a somebody in small-town Korean and a nobody in Canada.

Yu Bum Suk

The proportion of female NETs is definitely on the increase. You’re right that mid- and long-termers are more likely to be men, but in the uni teaching scene a number of them are women.

Yes, let’s settle this by using statistics from Korean Immigration. That will solve everything. Didn’t they lose track of 10,000 teachers a while back? My statement is anecdotal but based on my experience and many years living in Korea, and YBS backs me up (although he says it’s changing, which is perhaps not surprising given the economic meltdown in the US).

bumfromkorea

Yes. Clearly, anecdotal evidence is the reliable one here.

Mrs_Choi

I am a western woman and have been living here since 2001. I can’t say I’ve had any issues with sexism or the Korean sex industry. My Korean husband and I are co-equals in our personal relationship and business ventures. My friends back in the States have far more problems being treated like housekeepers and childminders in their owns homes by their western husbands than I do. My in-laws, employees, friends, and contacts all treat me fairly and with respect. I’m not doubting that other people have different experiences, but avoiding the crazy has not been much of an obstacle. Perhaps I am just lucky.

Mrs_Choi

And I feel the need to add that I didn’t marry some western-educated Seoulite, but a self-described 촌놈 from a little village in 경북/봉화군. Ha!

http://www.rjkoehler.com Robert Koehler

No shame in being from Bonghwa. Best boksubak in the republic.

Mrs_Choi

Throw in “Proud Hometown of Kim Ki Duk” banners on major holidays, a sweetfish festival, and that damn cow from 워낭 소리? What a weirdly wonderful place to be from.

Jack

Did you really become “Mrs. Choi” rather than keeping your family name as is the Korean tradition? And if you did do you pronounce it “Choy” like Koreans encourage foreigners to do?

Bob Bobbs

You’re right. The vast majority of western ESL teachers in Korea are women. That’s why there are a trillion Korea blogs listed on the right hand side of this page written by men.

Bob Bobbs

Good to hear.

Mrs_Choi

No, I didn’t change my name. But I wouldn’t have been the name changing kind had I married an American. Just an internet handle.

ChuckRamone

I didn’t mean to imply that foreign women in Korea are as embittered as Wesley yang. The stuff he mentions about Asian Americans being almost non-entities or bit players in society, and how AAs learn more or less to learn to live with that status is somewhat true for women too. You have to either accept it or act out to

silver surfer

In my experience, it’s not true that women enjoy Korea more. Some loathe it, some tolerate it, some enjoy it – much like men. Here’s another question: why do Korean men seem so much more comfortable with western women being here than western men? We all know why.

bumfromkorea

Exactly. That’s what I was talking about. Not your baseless notion that female ESL teachers are scared off by Korea’s sexism and its sex industry, but that the ‘vast majority of western ESL teachers in Korea are women’. That’s exactly what I was saying.

Tell you what. Give me your email. I’ll give you the login and the password, and you just write whatever you want me to write to make arguments so much easier for you. Sounds good?

SomeguyinKorea

Sounds to me like the stats were compiled from the search habits of a lone 15 year-old.

Sigmund

Good for you. Some of the nicest guys I know here are from very small villages…and based on the comments left by some of the resident western-educated Koreans here, you dodged a bullet.

SomeguyinKorea

I live in a town that’s the neighborhood from which of another famous Korean director comes from. I remember how he’d come many years ago to my brother-in-law’s video store to check and see if anyone had rented his movies. He was always trying to be sly about it, but we all knew who he was and what he was doing.

SomeguyinKorea

Ouch…I live in a neighborhood from which…

SomeguyinKorea

“They are perennial guests of the country.”

Well, up to a point. Those of us who are permanent residents have the right to vote, after all.

SomeguyinKorea

Those of us who teach English here aren’t all hagwon or public school teachers with just a BA trying to make ends meet after having paid off our student loans, you know.

Bob Bobbs

So what is it? Why are the vast majority of mid to long-termers in Korea male? Why do most of the western women last a year or less? I think it’s because of the sexism. It might be because of the pollution or the food or because they miss their families more, true. But Korea is still a country where women are expected to quit jobs when they get married, where photos are often demanded on resumes, where Korean women are expected to act younger than they actually are and where women are supposed to take care of the private sphere while the husband asserts himself by working a trillion hours a week for Samsung. Hell, the word for wife is ‘inside person.’ I think this sort of thing, combined with the rambunctious adultery going on in the massive sex industry and the fact that many men seem to think that participation in this is their reward for the aforementioned trillion-hour weeks, makes western women feel uncomfortable and leave. Think I’m making this up? Let’s ask the Economist:

‘ Working women in South Korea earn 63% of what men do.’ ‘South Korean women face social pressure to quit when they have children…’ ‘Only 60% of female South Korean graduates aged between 25 and 64 are in work—making educated South Korean women the most underemployed in OECD countries.’

I think this sort of thing is a shock for western women, so many of them leave. Why wouldn’t it be? But no, in your version of events it’s ‘baseless’ to say that there are any differences at all between how women are treated in the West and in Korea and it’s a huge logical leap to think that these women might want to give up on Korea and go home to places where they are treated more equally. Pointing out the dozens of examples of male teachers who stay for more than, say, one year, and the relative absence of females among them, is changing the subject. I should probably give my western yeoja chingus more credit than this as many of them are quite able to deal with this sort of thing, and as Mrs Choi states there is plenty of sexism in the West. Indeed, she states there is more but is only able to back this up with anecdotal evidence of her egalitarian relationship with her husband. Research into the lives of Korean women paints a picture that is far less hopeful.

bumfromkorea

I have no idea why you ET types always think, whenever you’re talking to a Korean, that the said Korean is always going to go Taeguk Warrior Mode and deny everything that is socially ill about Korea. It’s fucking tiresome to see “Well, you’re a Korean, so you must think that Korea is a paradise.” every single time I engage any of you. It’s getting old, and makes me think “Why bother? He’s just going to think that I’m a Pawi 2.0 no matter what the fuck I say”. Get over whatever happened to you when you first moved to Korea – it’s boring, and it’s annoying.

It’s “baseless” because you have absolutely no logical link between “Korea as a society is more sexist than the West” and “Western women, therefore, flee Korea because of it”. Absolutely none. As you unintentionally point out, it IS a huge logical leap.

Now do go on about how I’m just blinded by my nationalism. That’s what’s coming next, I’m sure.

Bob Bobbs

I know Koreans are aware of what goes on around them; I did use a Korean paper as a source in my last post. However, all nationalities are chauvinistic to some extent.

So answer my question: why do most western women leave? You’ve accepted my assertion that most mid to long-termers are men, although Pawi didn’t. I think the reason for this is the sexism. It is not a logical leap to think that people in an environment that disparages them because of an immutable characteristic will leave that environment and go to one that is more to their advantage. One of the biggest differences between Korea and the West is how women are treated. I think this is reflected in the proportionally larger number of western women who give up on the country in a short period. What do you think it is? The bad television? The overpriced wine coolers?

bumfromkorea

I don’t know why there are more dudes staying than women. I’m saying YOU don’t know why either, and that you’re just projecting whatever you got against Koreans when you’re making that bullshit argument about Korea being so unbearably sexist for Western women to stay. Where in hell do you think you are, Riyadh?

Bob Bobbs

No, I’m talking about another Asian country where women are beaten regularly.

bumfromkorea

Yes, because clearly domestic violence is a Korean phenomenon.

Bob Bobbs

Being sued for being a victim of it is.

bumfromkorea

When I used to volunteer at the local hospital’s emergency room, I saw a constant flow of women of all races coming in with horrific bruises all over their bodies and faces. Every single one of them claimed another cause, until cops came in and separated them from their husbands.

But now I know, thanks to Bob Bobbs. All those women must have had Korean husbands. And all their judges, their case workers, etc. must’ve been Koreans too. Fucking Koreans.

bumfromkorea

Maybe you can ask [shit tons of women in US alone who got killed by their husbands, directly no less] while you’re at it.

Bob Bobbs

Did they get sued for millions of dollars for being victimized? Nope. Only in Korea. And perhaps Riyadh.

bumfromkorea

You mean the case that got so publicized because it was fucked up? Yes, clearly the Korean society was going “What the fuck is wrong with CJS? She should’ve just taken it, becaue she’s a lowly woman”.

At least in the US, the courts won’t let the women be financially ruined because of it. Read the Times article: ‘One, domestic violence is a shameful topic that should be
kept in the home; two, even if you are beaten, shut up and suffer in
silence; three, it’s not dignified to reveal that you are a victim of
domestic violence; four, you are partly to blame in any case.’ This wouldn’t happen in America.

Bob Bobbs

Ooh. It got publicized. She’s still dead.

bumfromkorea

Like I said, all those women I saw must’ve had Korean husbands, Korean case workers, Korean judges, etc.

bumfromkorea

Korea as a society did not make the judgment “She should’ve taken it because she’s a 안사람.” like you’re trying to use CJS’s case in this context (which, as a fan, disgust me to no end). It was a tragedy, and recognized as a tragedy by the society at large. Unlike what you’re trying to say.

Bob Bobbs

I doubt it. But at least the courts will be on their sides, should they get sued for ‘failing to maintain their dignity.’

Bob Bobbs

Actually, the Supreme Court of Korea made the judgment. Unless you are advocating mob rule, the Supreme Court is the ultimate voice of the Korean people. Some people on the street may have complained after the fact, but it’s shameful that such a ruling was made in the modern era and I am sure it was an object lesson to many western women that their rights would never be equally respected in Korea.

bumfromkorea

Yes. But to borrow your words, they’re still dead.

Bob Bobbs

Are there more Korean women moving to the west or western women moving to Korea? I would have to say it’s the former. I wonder why.

bumfromkorea

Yes, it clearly has nothing to do with education opportunity for children, better economic prospect, etc. Absolutely none of those. Must be those sexist Korean men.

Of course they are. You already know what Western women in Korea thinks. Why not Korean women as well?

Bob Bobbs

Public opinion has no bearing on the Supreme Court, and it shouldn’t. That’s what rule of law means. Unfortunately, a society whose highest court refers to being beaten as ‘failing to maintain dignity’ has a long way to go to prove it is not populated by chauvinistic monsters.

Bob Bobbs

At least I’m guessing, and not just throwing my hands up and saying I don’t know why.

bumfromkorea

그러니까. 한국사회가 한국 사법부 보고 뭐라고 하는지도 모르면서 그런 ㅈㄹ이냐고.

bumfromkorea

Yes, at least you’re making baseless, logically wanting guesses. That always works out best.

bumfromkorea

For someone who can’t accurately decipher a single sentence in Korean, you sure know a lot about what Korean society thought about 최진실’s situation. Or what the relationship between the public and the 사법부 is, what kind of demands for changes are being put forth by the public, etc.

Nope, must be just rows and rows of “Bitch! Go make me some kimchi!” all throughout the country.

Bob Bobbs

No, really they aren’t. During my time in Korea, I witnessed three women severely beaten by their husbands, their boyfriends or even by groups of men attacking them in their businesses. In the first instance in Kangseo-gu, the man upstairs from me beat his wife for hours, throwing her around the apartment causing the building to shake while screaming threats at her. I was afraid to call the police because I had no work visa, so I told my boss the next day. She told the owner of the building who evicted us on trumped-up charges that we had been having loud parties.

In the second instance, also in Kangseo-gu, a young man punched his girlfriend and pushed her against the roof of his car causing her to strike her head and to collapse to the ground unconscious, convulsing in a seizure. I ran to a group of young men in suits who then went over and talked to him, called an ambulance and told me that ‘she was drunk.’ I furiously maintained that he had beaten her, but the ambulance just carted her away while the guy who had knocked her out cried and wailed as if the world had been unfair to him. Stupidly, I gave my phone number and address to the young men. The next day, while I was at work, Immigration came to my apartment looking for illegals.

In the third incident which occurred in Yatap-dong in Bundang, two men entered a kalbi-jip and attacked the ajuma running the place, kicked her in the chest so she fell backwards over a table, pulled down the roll-down gate on the front of the restaurant and took her into the kitchen where they burnt her hands on the gas fire on the stovetop. I ran into the kitchen trying to stop them, but another man who had been smoking a cigarette next door came and pushed me back into the street so the others could continue kicking and burning the woman. I tried to call the police and they hung up on me many times. When I finally got through to someone at the station who spoke English, they ignored my allegations about the violence, asked me how long I had been in Korea and why I didn’t speak Korean better and hung up. I told my boss about it the next day, and he said it was probably just a ‘family affair’ and that I shouldn’t have got involved.

Anecdotally, one of my best friends told me that he had once seen a man beat his girlfriend in front of a police station and the police only came outside when he pushed her through the front window of the station. It wasn’t so much the violence, as I know this goes on everywhere, but the failure to respond and the disinterest shown toward these women was truly heart-breaking. If you don’t think these things had a lasting impression on me, you’re wrong.

bumfromkorea

So four anecdotal evidences prove that Korean society fits the cartoonishly chauvinistic image that you’re trying to paint. So what does that line of thought makes America then, considering I’ve seen about four horrific DV cases (that never, ever gets resolved, considering the familiar faces returning) PER shift at the Emergency Room back when I was volunteering? I didn’t walk away from that thinking that American men are fucking chauvinistic animals who beat their women (some of them to death). So what’s the difference between me and you?

Again, Wangkon answered that question 2 days ago.

Bob Bobbs

It doesn’t matter what they thought. It didn’t change her situation. The people who were supposed to defend her rights didn’t. I live in Canada and I we are in the tenth year of a Conservative majority government, but I have never met anyone who has admitted to voting Conservative. Public opinion is one thing, but societies are judged on how their highest institutions behave. In Korea’s case, the courts served as a tool of a misogynist advertising company which hounded one of its representatives into the grave for having the nerve to get beat up. That’s pretty sad.

bumfromkorea

It is sad, but you’re then assigning that guilt of the highest court (Under fire, which you have no clue as to why, how, when etc because 다시 말하지만 한국어를 한마디도 읽을수 없으니까.) to the entire society. Fucked up things have been decided at the highest court everywhere, but rarely do we find individuals who go “Well, then the whole society obviously thinks that way.” Most people would go “They should fire that asshole.” Of course, most people who don’t apply to what Wangkon said two days ago. You’re just fitting the bullshit description of ETs that Pawi constantly writes.

Here’s an article on how Koreans thought about sexism. Good luck reading it.

Bob Bobbs

Only the last one is anecdotal to me, the other three I saw first hand. The cartoon is on the streets of Seoul, and it’s an ugly one. You didn’t come to that conclusion because you aren’t racially excluded from being American, so you have to integrate. Korea throws up barriers to foreigners, and then wonders why they feel so isolated. And please, don’t make me talk about the children who came to school covered in bruises after being beaten by their fathers for getting bad grades. I’m talking about 8 year old kids. I felt bad for participating in the cover-up of these crimes and I had no prospect of ever being treated as an equal because of my dirty mud blood, so I left. You, on the other hand, have been allowed to integrate into multicultural America, so you have to rationalize it. You can’t go home, America is your home. People who are constantly kept on the outside will only get an outside view, so they can only extrapolate from what they see in order to draw conclusions. My conclusions are that Korea has a long way to go in terms of equality between the sexes, and that this turns western women off.

bumfromkorea

You, on the other hand, have been allowed to integrate into multicultural America, so you have to rationalize it.

Funny, I could’ve sworn I lived in Phoenix, Maricopa County, Arizona, where I’m at the point where hearing “Ching chong ching chang! Ching Chang!” in public doesn’t even register in my ear anymore. Eh, must be my Korean chauvinism.

Korea does have a long way to go in terms of equality between the sexes. Absolutely

LOGICAL LEAP

Koreans think that women should be “inside person”, slaps them when they smoke in public, beats them constantly, and whores it up all the time. And they thought CJS deserved it when she got sued for millions for getting beaten by her manly husband.

LOGICAL LEAP

Western women are scared of what Korean society might do to them, so they run away. Korean women do it too.

And please, don’t make me talk about the children who came to school covered in bruises after being beaten by their fathers for getting bad grades. I’m talking about 8 year old kids.

And please, don’t make me talk about the number of cigarette burns and broken teeth I’ve seen on kids of those women who come in. DV, contrary to what you think, is not a Korean phenomenon.

Bob Bobbs

Roe v Wade is still law in the US, Canada still allows gay marriage and Korea still thinks women who are beaten are a disgrace. Laws change as societies change, but it’s still fair to judge societies on how their courts behave.

pawikirogii

why don’t western women stay in korea longer than a few years? cuz they don’t go to korea to get laid. they go there to have an adventure and a life experience. that they stay for less time than males do does not prove that they leave because of korean men. that’s a white guy fantasy that plays right into his idea of korean guys. how convenient.

bumfromkorea

Korea still thinks women who are beaten are a disgrace.

Uh huh. Keep thinking that, Canadian Pawi.

Bob Bobbs

I’m sorry to hear that about Arizona. Maybe you’d like Canada better. I on the other hand got to be called monkey, hairy monkey, big nose, American bastard and fat pig on the streets of Seoul.

There IS a degree of truth to all of the statements: some Koreans think women shouldn’t work- see the figures I gave from the Economist. Some Koreans slap women when they smokei in public- I’ve seen it happen. Some women are beaten. When the courts fail to take their sides, I make judgments about the country. Does this sort of thing make women, both western and Korean, run to places where they are treated more equally? I maintain that it probably does.

I know DV is not a Korean phenomenon, but Korea’s highest court describes being beaten as a ‘failure to maintain dignity.’ This is a stark difference between countries. It’s interesting that the judgment was out of step with public opinion, but until the courts are run by referendum it doesn’t really matter.

Bob Bobbs

To quote from the Korea Times article above:

‘ In short, Choi failed to maintain her dignity because she got herself beat up by her husband and talked about it publicly. ‘

– That’s pretty sad. Do something about it.

Bob Bobbs

Whereas your statement that all western men are only in Korea for the sex is, of course, grounded in objective fact.

bumfromkorea

When the courts fail to take their sides, I make judgments about the country.

It’s interesting that the judgment was out of step with public opinion, but until the courts are run by referendum it doesn’t really matter.

When you, as a person, are making a judgment about an entire society, that just becomes an excuse for your misguided thoughts. A 궤변, if you will. No reasonable people will think that eminent domain used for private companies is okay with the American people either… unless that person wants to make a statement about how ruthless and unsympathetic Americans are.

Does this sort of thing make women, both western and Korean, run to places where they are treated more equally? I maintain that it probably does.

Like I said, logical leap. Only if you could translate your ability to make a logical leap so effortlessly to its physical counterpart. Canada would dominate that category in the Summer Olympics.

Oh, and the fact that we can have this conversation in English, but not 한국어, should demonstrate why I was able to ‘integrate’ to my society and you weren’t. I wonder how far I could have “integrated” into the American society if I didn’t speak English.

Bob Bobbs

Alright. Nobody should use things they see with their own eyes to make conclusions. They should reserve judgment on everything until they are dead. Nobody should ever make guesses as to the motivations of others. It is impossible to understand the motivation of others. Their environment has no bearing on their actions.

If I wanted to talk about how ruthless the Americans are I’d probably talk about free-fire zones in Vietnam, or maybe Abu Graibh. Despite the occupiers and the activists, eminent domain is central to property rights in the west (or the lack thereof) and the courts endorse it. This says a lot about who runs the show in America. I also think that Koreans might be talking a fine game about giving equal rights to women when they talk about how wrong the Choi Jin-Sil ruling was, but they aren’t quite ready to let that mean that women should be treated equally in the workplace or on the street.

bumfromkorea

Nobody should use things they see with their own eyes to make conclusions. They should reserve judgment on everything until they are dead. Nobody should ever make guesses as to the motivations of others. It is impossible to understand the motivation of others. Their environment has no bearing on their actions

Yes, let’s keep it in the extremes. That’s what we’ll do. Either make wild, wtf did that come from guesses, or no guesses until you’re DEAD. The synchronization to pawi is almost complete.

If I wanted to talk about how ruthless the Americans are I’d probably talk about free-fire zones in Vietnam, or maybe Abu Graibh. Despite the occupiers and the activists, eminent domain is central to property rights in the west and the courts endorse it. This says a lot about who runs the show in America. I also think that Koreans might be talking a fine game about giving equal rights to women when they talk about how wrong the Choi Jin-Sil ruling was, but they aren’t quite ready to let that mean that women should be treated equally in the workplace or on the street.

This paragraph is the conclusion of the logical trainwreck that is your thought. It’s literally pointless to engage you after this.

Bob Bobbs

You integrated because you weren’t paid to speak Korean all day long every day, but I got paid to speak English and only English. You integrated because you were treated as an equally valid human being regardless of race so you felt you had a stake in the society, but I got treated like a new arrival year after year so I felt no connection. I have some regret about not learning it, but I couldn’t spend my days teaching one language and my nights learning another. Korean language ability can get westerners out of the ESL ghetto, but it’s more likely to get them a bar in Itaewon. I got out, and taught English to Korean (women even!) in Canada that were desperate to stay and didn’t want to go back to Korea. I’m not sure how serious they were about that or what their reasons for it were, but they often complained about the pressure they felt to get married and the responsibilities that would be heaped upon them when they did so. They seemed reluctant to return to Korea. Whether or not this was because of the yellow dust, the traffic or the dread with which they approached the prospect of being married to a Korean man is unclear.

Bob Bobbs

So, like your compatriot The_Korean, you’re an American who claims to understand Korea despite, perhaps, having lived there for less time than I did (if at all) and whose argumentative techniques include personal attacks, bad language and arbitrarily declaring discussions over when they don’t go the way you like. Although you write somewhat better than he does (which is surprising because he claims to be a lawyer), the fact that both of you employ all three of these techniques actually makes me think there might be something to this Korean racial theory. Thanks for this UriMinZokKiri moment.

bumfromkorea

but I got paid to speak English and only English

I had no idea English teachers worked 24/7/365. How terrible.

You integrated because you were treated as an equally valid human being regardless of race

Every minority/immigrants in Arizona just laughed at you.

I have some regret about not learning it, but I couldn’t spend my days teaching one language and my nights learning another.

I got out, and taught English to Korean (women even!) in Canada that were desperate to stay and didn’t want to go back to Korea. I’m not sure how serious they were about that or what their reasons for it were, but they often complained about the pressure they felt to get married and the responsibilities that would be heaped upon them when they did so. They seemed reluctant to return to Korea. Whether or not this was because of the yellow dust, the traffic or the dread with which they approached the prospect of being married to a Korean man is unclear.

1. Biting into Pawi’s bullshit point. Yet again.
2. Clearly, you have signs of someone who has a telepathic ability. Definitely go check whether you have one at the next nearest convention of psychics.
3. Yes, it can’t possibly be the horrific unemployment rate for 20s~30s that makes Koreans (women even!) reluctant to return. Or anything else for that matter.

wangkon936

You actually have a point here Bob. I’ve met a lot of Korean women who are in America who are petrified to return to Korea. There are a lot of expectations of women in Korea and few obvious rewards. Just being a mother and family person just doesn’t cut it anymore for a lot of Korean women.

However, I never really saw what they were saying as an indictment against their homeland just like the Irish potato famine or dictatorship in Argentina creating immigrants from those countries to go elsewhere as an indictment against those countries. These ladies are still very much appreciative Korean values and Korean identity. It’s just that the current conditions in Korea pushes them to seek opportunities elsewhere. I would be careful making assumptions on a culture or society based on what certain groups of individuals do.

bumfromkorea

And just like creo, all you do is make sweeping generalizations about the Koreans and the Korean society and charge anyone who challenges your opinion with some sort of “koreanness” that you’ve conjured up in your mind. And top it off with “there might be something to this Korean racial theory. Thanks for this UriMinZokKiri moment.”

The men seemed happy to study English and go home. In fact, they looked forward to it. The women took menial jobs to get work visas and cried about leaving when those ran out. Why? It could be the unemployment, the pollution or the Loch Ness monster. Or it could be related to one of the many statistics I posted earlier about women being treated like second-class citizens in Korea. I’m going with the latter.

bumfromkorea

And quite the responsive comment you put on there. No hint of an argument, just a bunch of *actual* personal attacks colored by your weird, borderline creepy fixation with the_korean. Who hurt you, Bob?