Prizewriter stated - Not that it would change my answer, but are you including other hand techniques in this thread outside of striking (e.g. grabbing)?

Heck, I like a good sweep or reap as much as the next guy!

========================================================Me too!!!

Yes I'm talking about arsenal and all strikes. In most the grabs that I've been taught there is a strike before the grab or he can twist away. As I mentioned fingers, elbows and knees this would also including kicking, forearm smashes, koken strikes, palm strikes, shutos, haitos, head butts and hammer fist.

Of course this is one boxing strengths, simplisity there few strikes with lots of angles.

Your so called dirty boxing (grabing and hittting) has always been apart of my base system, except we kick and knee while grabbing also. Its even in our Katas but I won't start that again.

The fist or knuckle area is the striking surface that both hooks are design to make contact with, but sh%% happens and the thumb up hook is more prone to injury, bc its more exposed. From what I've seen anybody got info to support the opposite?

The way you hook punch is how I do it also.

But I don't see anything wrong with sticking a thumb or finger in the eyes or treceha or adams apple.

On two major police departments when they started to teach their officers open hand techniques the injury rate to the hands dropped dramatically. BUT-they are not trained boxers. They just get shown a few techniques and then sent out.

The disciplined approach (staying "home" or, "keeping center") as I call it in the gym) is just the start of it. The strategy that one would need to employ for self-defense is obviously going to be different than one would employ for the ring and certainly these things would have to be coached. That strategy when in place, suddenly makes things easier from a self-defense perspective.

I think we all understand that you can get hurt in a fight. That is the crap-shoot that fighting is. You take your chances each and every time you get so involved. Some of us look at it differently. I personally don't go out looking for fights. My thinking is that all violence should be avoided. If you're a bouncer/doorman, or other security personnel, where you knowingly place yourself in harm's way, hitting someone in that environment means (at least in the States) that you'll probably get sued and lose everything you've got. You'll at least lose the job, and possibly others as well from reputable establishments. There are other things that work better when involved in team oriented security than maiming people with strikes anyway. Just my opinion.

From a civilian perspective, do we really need to go in wading behind shots? Perhaps at times maybe? I should never say never, but my thinking is that we need to probably stay away from attackers rather than engage with them under most circumstances. In that sense, I feel that a good retreating jab will do people more good than virtually everything else.

Another point I'd like to make stems from the fact that when most people discuss boxing, 99% of them think in terms of the ring sport variation. They rarely consider the underlying delivery system and it's versatility. They also don't realize that modern boxing gets a lot of it's influence from Panantukan. Possibly without that influence, we'd probably still be fighting like John L. Sullivan. The Filipino martial arts had a tremendous impact on that. Go in with your arms stuck out like that in the Philippines and you get carved up like Thanksgiving turkey.

Speaking of Panantukan, it's core is of course, western boxing. But there is another level we can go to from there. In this case, and its important to understand those differences that exist between street and sport boxing. Aside from the ring sport variation, there is the "dirty" side that I particularly like to emphasize. This however requires a solid grounding in fundamentals. There is thumbing the eyes (or simply sticking your fingers in off the jab), headbutting, low blows, knee strikes to the groin in the clinch, arm wrenching, etc. Sweeps, disruptions, shoulder-butting, elbow strikes...the list goes on. Again I realize that the topic of this thread was about hitting, but I think that has to be mentioned. I mean, we are training for self-defense right? Why would we take a ring mentality into that way of thinking? I know I wouldn't.

good point, strategy is going to change the tools you use, ring fighting as opposed to self protection.

one strategy for personal protection we teach in our style of karate is to play innocent until it's time to dismantel your target and run away to find help or shelter.

JKogas,i actually have to disagree with you about the retreating jab idea for personal protection, could you explain it a little more? all i can picture is backpeddeling and throwing a jab that won't have your body weight behind it. i'm sure you have more to it then this, lol.

delivery systems are another aspect of self defence i'd like to talk about. i would advise against using any kind of fighting stance that conveys your intentions, so my delivery system is really close to the fence i guess. most likely im misunderstanding what you mean by a boxing delivery system, but i keep picturing some one with their hands up a chin tucked.

concerning the op, i'd point out that karate makes use of more kinds of strikes on lots of angles, but.....and its a huge but, i don't see all of the karate strikes practice nearly enough when compared to how many times your typical boxers trains his fewer punches. but i guess this is a "person and not the art" thing, but i have noticed trends in my time with the traditional arts, and most people don't practice most of their strikes on pads most of the time.

all that said, a reverse punch from a well traind karate ka CAN end any fight. you'd never guess it from the "fight science" show though, that guy was faux boxing, lol.

Quote:good point, strategy is going to change the tools you use, ring fighting as opposed to self protection.

one strategy for personal protection we teach in our style of karate is to play innocent until it's time to dismantel your target and run away to find help or shelter.

JKogas,i actually have to disagree with you about the retreating jab idea for personal protection, could you explain it a little more? all i can picture is backpeddeling and throwing a jab that won't have your body weight behind it. i'm sure you have more to it then this, lol.

Well obviously with regard to personal protection, retreating/maintaining distance would be an important strategy. So, we're using the jab in order to do that. In boxing, the jab is half of your defense and is used to keep people off of you. It would be no different here for a self-defense situation.

Obviously just moving backward and punching will have no power on it. I'm not just talking about running when I talk of retreating. When I speak of retreating, I mean keeping/maintaining that distance as you circle or angle off. Thus if or when my opponent steps toward me, I keep him away from me back sticking the jab right on the nose.

Basically as he moves in toward me, I don't allow him to get in close. So he moves in, I move back, and he runs into the jab on his way in, thus doubling the impact. This obviously requires timing to get down, because you have to be able to nail your opponent with the jab while on the move. Of course this "stick & move" is the hallmark of boxing. I don't know if that made it any clearer or not, but that's why we have these discussion forums.

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delivery systems are another aspect of self defense i'd like to talk about. i would advise against using any kind of fighting stance that conveys your intentions, so my delivery system is really close to the fence i guess. most likely im misunderstanding what you mean by a boxing delivery system, but i keep picturing some one with their hands up a chin tucked.

It's all semantics. I actually use a fence as well. But that isn't something that *I* call a delivery system, but then again, I suppose you could. What I mean by "delivery system" is the entire panoply of offense and defense within a "phase" of fighting (ie, free-movement/unattached range, close-range and ground fighting contain their three unique delivery systems. In this case, any fence would be a "strategy" within the free-movement delivery system).

So while you're correct, the delivery system in the free movement range is based around boxing's upright hands posture, used for "fighting". I rely on a fence type of pre-fight posture when dealing with unknown contacts (strangers, etc).

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concerning the op, i'd point out that karate makes use of more kinds of strikes on lots of angles, but.....and its a huge but, i don't see all of the karate strikes practice nearly enough when compared to how many times your typical boxers trains his fewer punches. but i guess this is a "person and not the art" thing, but i have noticed trends in my time with the traditional arts, and most people don't practice most of their strikes on pads most of the time.

My opinion is, the argument can be made that fewer is better; less is more. Sure the boxer has fewer shots, but how many do you really need for the frenetic energy and pressure of a real fight? It's my opinion that when the pressure is on for *real* (something boxers are naturally accustomed to that many others aren't), the less the mind has to deal with, the better. The simpler the method, the greater the delivery.

Going back to panantukan boxing, there's quite a bit more there than just the jab/cross/hook/uppercut and overhand. But then again, I was making the distinction between the ring sport and the delivery system, which is why I brought that subject up to begin with. You fall back on the fundamentals of the delivery system (tight, economical defense, evasiveness, footwork, punching straight out and back, etc), but you aren't limited to the tools you use. You can add as much to that as possible, providing the fundamentals are in place. But there again, less is probably more, particularly when it comes to the simple objective of surviving a violent encounter. In that sense, there's probably not a great need to throw out everything including the kitchen sink.

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all that said, a reverse punch from a well trained karate ka CAN end any fight.

I suppose you're right. Really it's matter of how you train and how much pressure you become accustomed to dealing with in training. The more realistic the energy in the training environment, the better. Its as they always say, "The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in combat". I think that rings very true. If you have the timing and attributes to deliver a solid shot, that's all that ultimately matters doesn't it? Its just personal differences from that point on. I just prefer the boxing delivery method, but as long as it works, who really cares about the differences, right?

Interesting your writing "Basically as he moves in toward me, I don't allow him to get in close. So he moves in, I move back, and he runs into the jab on his way in, thus doubling the impact. This obviously requires timing to get down, because you have to be able to nail your opponent with the jab while on the move. Of course this "stick & move" is the hallmark of boxing."

Last weekend I attended an intense clinic a friend held in Western Mass. on Naihanchi kata, and most of the week I've been trying to frame what we worked on.

Have you ever tried your jab on someone who's primary target is the hand and arm coming towards them.

We spent the time watching peoples arms drop when being struck as they were trying to strike, and he was just using kata, at kata practice speed, but the target was the arm itself.

Yes, absolutely. In Filipino Panantukan, the incoming strike itself is a target for attack. They use a variety of ways to deal with that either with "spikes" or guntings, etc.

That's an active rather than a passive defense. And yes, I've been on the receiving end of some of that stuff and it is certainly uncomfortable, I can say that much.

But in truth, there are problems with that approach as well. In the vast majority of cases when those types of things have occurred, they've occurred during the "training energy". What happens during the "fight energy" is that the timings are changed, along with intensity and other factors.

For example, during "fighting energy" when people are feinting/using false attacks more and setting up their attacks well, these sorts of tactics drop off substantially from what I've observed. I mean, we can do a "lot of things" in training, can't we? But the problems come when the rubber hits the road and we're now moving around, varying the timing, setting up shots the way we're supposed to, etc., etc.

Not that these active defenses can't work then (during fight energy), as I believe that they can. I just think that their window of opportunity is now much narrower. Couple that with a higher pain threshold due to adrenaline and suddenly, things things worked so well in practice, don't work so well anymore. But you knew that already.

Just like all the anti-grappling I used to see....it was all demonstrated (read "trained") against a guy just basically bending over and running in while the "anti-grappler" stood ready. Of course the tackles were never successful, there was never any set-up.

Same thing here really. The dynamics change and things that once worked now don't. Good boxing shots, with feinting, odd timing, faking...all changes things a good bit.

That said, this doesn't mean that I don't train for these things. But whenever I see a karate ka work his traditional blocks, etc. in the usual manner....I cringe because I just realize the timing and other things are so different in reality than in what many people call "training".

Agreed. But one of my primary points was (and has been) that often, these things ARE practiced, and still not done! Another point that I attempt to make here is that some martial arts techniques just aren't workable (in my opinion), no matter HOW much time you put into them. In other cases, some "techniques" stray a good distance from sound fundamentals and actually make people vulnerable. Again, I think the less is more school of thought has better returns on time invested. There are high percentage techniques, and lower percentage techniques, across the martial arts landscape as I'm sure you're well aware.

For MY money, I'm not interested in the esoteric and endless days of training with so little resistance that I barely break a sweat. I don't care about what "looks good on paper" and I don't have 15 years to master a move that only works on people with a heart rate slightly above that of a corpse. Tank Abbott with 'roid rage is the opponent I try and gear up for. He's not going to even feel it when I perform an inside horizontal gunting to the bicep (just an example). I'd better do something that makes the "hard drive" crash because otherwise it's going to be a long night. In cases like that, the simpler a person's game, the better. Fighting someone's "arm" is nice, but if I'm not going after the brain, I'm not going to get anywhere vs. a worthy opponent.

Core fundamentals developed through aliveness is going to be a hundred times better than splitting a persons time in half having them perform movements that have zero relationship to a living, moving human being fighting them back. Its just that simple. Sure, that's my opinion. But I also think its common sense. There have been more than a few occasions where I discovered that common sense is outside the realm of art.

Anything one can do with kata, can be done without kata. If not, it isn't worth being done at all, in my opinion. But I digress, because kata vs. aliveness isn't what this thread is about really, and I'm contributing to it being derailed.

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The real goal, IMO, should be to work to be totally unpredictable, which deep study of kata and all the attendante drills, hard body contact, makiwara training, etc. offer.

You had me at unpredictable and lost me with the words kata and makiwara. But that's no surprise there, right, lol?

In all seriousness, there is just no reason for kata outside of, control of large numbers of people in a class, the intentional wasting of time, or in the testing of an individuals patience/character, etc. I have to disagree that kata is where skill is built. But we've been over this before on the forum here. Kata (given that time is of the essence) would be the very last thing that I could ever, in good faith and with a clean conscience, advise anyone to do with their training time.

And with all due respect, the very fact that kata is not necessary in ANY way, for the creation of functional ability, clearly demonstrates the waste of time that it is, in my opinion.