Can you put something descriptive in the title...so people know that it's an illustrated post about dog aggression.

Katrina...the stuff about instinct vs. reflex vs. biological predisposition is so very interesting.

Now where is Liz...I want to know how Inara behaves with other dogs that she's playful with...I'm loving this, I find this so very interesting.

and Michelle...if I come to NY this summer...can we test one of mine with Riggs for comparison? I'm absolutely fascinated with dog body language and behavior.

I LOVE that stuff...I usually don't cover it in depth with my intro students when I review learning...however, in a class dedicated to learning I do spend a lot of time going over the differences, and I usually ask my students to make lists of behaviors...then we place each of the behavior in a chart with 3 columns: 1 each for instinct, reflex, and biological predisposition...

Malli wrote:Is his tail always set that high when it wags? It looked pretty upright to me... Other then that the rest of him gives nothing away...

Now, see, I let a few other people see the video, and they said that the stare gives him away...which is what I thought

Maybe it's b/c it's very similar to the stare that my dog has when it's about to bite a decoy...and I'm talking about Cy - who is a serious dog, not wholly prey driven...

\\

Oscar will stare at just about anything thats at the top end of his interest range like that, prey animal, new dog, ball, etc. The stare to me means just really really interested. The tail, on the other hand, the tail is different...

I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day, tomorrow doesn't look good either.
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"You didn't know of the magical powers of the break stick? It's up there with genies and Harry Potter as far as magic levels go." SisMorphine 01/07/07

Malli wrote:Oscar will stare at just about anything thats at the top end of his interest range like that, prey animal, new dog, ball, etc. The stare to me means just really really interested. The tail, on the other hand, the tail is different...

the only way I can describe why my students may have seen his intent is because many of them are afraid of dogs...however, even the ones who own dogs still figured it out...

TheRedQueen wrote:Now where is Liz...I want to know how Inara behaves with other dogs that she's playful with...I'm loving this, I find this so very interesting.

Hey lady, some of us had to WORK today!

Inara is absolutely like this with other dogs (except the ones she gets snarky toward). She has no knowledge of canine body language and does not heed/understand warnings. Ruby gave her a couple very solid warnings (as in, left small marks on her nose) and Inara just brushed it off and kept going. She was separated from her mom at 4 or 5 weeks old, which is what I think caused this problem. She has no concept of the "proper" way to introduce herself to other dogs - arc toward each other, do a polite butt sniff, etc. She throws herself full-force at the other dog. Even after Riggs nailed her on Thursday (you can see the mark above her eye in the pics in the gallery), she still displayed that same annoying puppy body language.

"Remember - every time your dog gets somewhere on a tight leash *a fairy dies and it's all your fault.* Think of the fairies." http://www.positivepetzine.com"

pitbullmamaliz wrote:Inara is absolutely like this with other dogs (except the ones she gets snarky toward). She has no knowledge of canine body language and does not heed/understand warnings. Ruby gave her a couple very solid warnings (as in, left small marks on her nose) and Inara just brushed it off and kept going. She was separated from her mom at 4 or 5 weeks old, which is what I think caused this problem. She has no concept of the "proper" way to introduce herself to other dogs - arc toward each other, do a polite butt sniff, etc. She throws herself full-force at the other dog. Even after Riggs nailed her on Thursday (you can see the mark above her eye in the pics in the gallery), she still displayed that same annoying puppy body language.

I forgot that Inara was separated from her mom at that age...Rocky, who was also separated from momma at a young age, also seems to have no sense of proper doggie behavior. He plays rather well with Sacha, and will sometimes play with Nisha...but he often "hurts" Sacha. He's got a thing for her floppy ears...well, sadly, she'll often yelp, and it's like he doesn't know what means...

Finally...Liz (kidding, kidding...I just wanted to use that smiley!)I didn't realize that about Inara...more food for thought, thanks. I will repeat that I seem to see this in certain breeds more than others...boxers and labs tend to be like this a lot. Perhaps it's something that we humans look for? Dogs are wolves with more juvenile characteristics...does it then hold that some breeds would carry this further...because of what humans want?

As for taking puppies early...I had a dog who was taken away at 6 weeks (my basset hound), and while she was never snarky, she wasn't great with dogs until later in life (so many more dogs in the house, I think she had to learn better skills). She had some idea how to play later in life...but only with dogs she knew well...but didn't early on.

Riggs' body languge...the stare clued me in to his intense desire to get to her...but the stiff-er body posture and tail put it all together as a more aggressive "Get her". It's very subtle. He's giving out good "I'm happy and friendly" signals, but they're a bit off to my eye...

This is a great thread...so many interesting ideas floating around here today!

Thanks for the change in post title too...

"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw

pitbullmamaliz wrote:Inara is absolutely like this with other dogs (except the ones she gets snarky toward). She has no knowledge of canine body language and does not heed/understand warnings. Ruby gave her a couple very solid warnings (as in, left small marks on her nose) and Inara just brushed it off and kept going. She was separated from her mom at 4 or 5 weeks old, which is what I think caused this problem. She has no concept of the "proper" way to introduce herself to other dogs - arc toward each other, do a polite butt sniff, etc. She throws herself full-force at the other dog. Even after Riggs nailed her on Thursday (you can see the mark above her eye in the pics in the gallery), she still displayed that same annoying puppy body language.

I forgot that Inara was separated from her mom at that age...Rocky, who was also separated from momma at a young age, also seems to have no sense of proper doggie behavior. He plays rather well with Sacha, and will sometimes play with Nisha...but he often "hurts" Sacha. He's got a thing for her floppy ears...well, sadly, she'll often yelp, and it's like he doesn't know what means...

Oscar left his litter a little early, too. His mum had had it with the whole lot of them by about 4-5 weeks and had to be forced to spend time with them, most of his litter was gone by 6 weeks, and we picked him up at about 6.5-7 weeks.He is amazingly good at reading and communicating with PEOPLE, he can tell me just about anything he wants and generally is pretty empathetic with them in general, dogs are a different story.

I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day, tomorrow doesn't look good either.
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"You didn't know of the magical powers of the break stick? It's up there with genies and Harry Potter as far as magic levels go." SisMorphine 01/07/07

I had an interesting encounter at training that seemed similar. Teeny was crated for training and two of the dogs during the rest of the night approached her crate (not at the same time). Both were wagging their tails, seemed to be friendly. One had to be dragged away, the whole time he was pulling back towards her crate and whining. When he was at her crate she growled at him (and she never growls inside her crate). The other dog could be called off of her, and then would go back to say hi. She never growled at him (even when he continued to mark her crate . . . he thought she was sexy, LOL!). No whining from him.

It was mentioned that the first dog may have a touch of DA in him and I'm willing to believe it. He was far more locked into Teeny than the second dog, and Teeny could obviously feel it (hence the growl). Interesting stuff . . .

"All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another." -Anatole France

Malli wrote:Oscar left his litter a little early, too. His mum had had it with the whole lot of them by about 4-5 weeks and had to be forced to spend time with them, most of his litter was gone by 6 weeks, and we picked him up at about 6.5-7 weeks.He is amazingly good at reading and communicating with PEOPLE, he can tell me just about anything he wants and generally is pretty empathetic with them in general, dogs are a different story.

Same thing with Agatha, mom got fed up with having 11 pups at 4.5 weeks, bit most of them, and wouldn't have anything to do with them after that. I was actually helping my friend (whose parents had the dogs) clean and treat the pups (a couple developed abscesses) and at just before 6 weeks I said what the hell and they let me take Agatha home, it made it easier to care for the rest until they were ready to go.

Agatha is a bit clueless when it comes to other dog's body language, she doesn't quite get it when they're telling her to lay off and chill. And she then looks all hurt and bewildered when they get snarky with her, totally not understanding that it was because she's a nooge. She's all puppy "let's play let's play let's play let's play let's play run run run run run zoooooooom!" until they get irritated, then she hides behind me

She is getting better at reading other dogs, but it's slow going. Funny thing is, the dog who totally isn't annoyed by her and is totally down with her crazy let play stuff is this little Boston that lives down the street, he tries to keep up with her crazy zoomie play, but can't keep up after a while. He thinks she's the bee's knees, gets all sad looking if we go past and she's not with us !

This is an AWESOME thread ... thanks for initiating it! I hope a sticky is made!

Now... on the other side of the coin ... for those of us who have the girlz (and boys?) who are like Inara with annoying, pushy, pawing-at playstyles (my Ruby does the SAME EXACT but-tossing pirouette!!! it's sorta hilarious but I see now that it could be problematic) --- WHAT SHOULD WE BE DOING as our parts ... if anything??? People have referred to that in this thread as 'lack of manners' ... where does that leave us as the potential 'triggers'? (Or does it matter if we're not encountering DA dogs?) I always thought she was just a rough tom boy but we don't encounter very many dogs at all to keep manners toned....

If your dog is "rude" keep her away from other dogs unless under controlled conditions with known and trusted handlers. If you watch, Riggs is ready and willing to tangle, but calls back to me and does basic obedience. He's completely under control, but hoping and praying that I'll screw up and let him grab her.

Go and watch the Alice videos again, she's annoying, but he's calm and not showing signs of aggression. He never had any aggression with her, but she is also very young and very puppy like. Many adult dogs excuse stupid puppy behavior, but get angry at the exact same behavior when it is exhibited by an adult dog.

He kept trying to hump her, but that's it. They never really played, though she did like to punch him in the head at every opportunity. she's dorky but harmless, Inara was a little more rude and Riggs reacted to that.

Inara was jut as wild with Connor and he LOVED it.

Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.

I agree, I simply do not let Oscar play with other dogs unless I know they are tolerant or girls (girls can tell him off and he at least respects them, even if he doesn't understand why they are bossing his obnoxious ass around I came to the conclusion some time ago that you can't train a dog to play (at least, a person can't), if you train them then really, they aren't playing, as they will be thinking about what they should do instead of it being a totally "free" action, if that makes sense I have stopping humping before, and I've given Oscar time-outs, but don't really feel like there is much more I can interfere without taking the spontaneous fun out of it.So, I just pick and choose his playmates carefully.I think it can also reflect on the breed, many people find what we consider "obnoxious" play to be alarming...

I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day, tomorrow doesn't look good either.
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"You didn't know of the magical powers of the break stick? It's up there with genies and Harry Potter as far as magic levels go." SisMorphine 01/07/07

Inara doesn't get to play with or meet other dogs. She has one dog locally that I trust her with, and she can play with Connor and Ruby because I trust Michelle and Demo to not freak out and to know when Ruby is reaching her limit. But that's it. Because of her rude behavior, she has simply lost the priviledge of meeting new dogs. Also, she occasionally goes after random dogs, so that's part of it too. But yep, rude dogs like Inara are always going to be rude dogs!

"Remember - every time your dog gets somewhere on a tight leash *a fairy dies and it's all your fault.* Think of the fairies." http://www.positivepetzine.com"

I honestly don't know much of when Sammy's really early history. I only make the assumption that I had rescued him from his previous owners and abusive situation at around 8 weeks old but I don't know at what age he was taken from his litter mates. About a week later he had the opportunity to play with a pack (when I say a pack I mean about 15 or so) adult greyhound dogs... some very tolerant of the abuse that the pup could dish out... some not so much. I asked all my friends with younger dogs and any dogs for playdates with a two and three month old Sammy and up until they found out his breed they were fine and as soon as they found out his breed suddenly the excuses I got ranged from "my dog is aggressive" to "I think my dog was used as a bait dog". He was never really socialized so he never really learned to speak "dog". He grew up with 4 cats. He is fluent in cat. Up until his overnight stays in the vet hospital he was just obnoxious with other dogs and would outright charge and pounce on them... when he got growled at and nipped he didn't get it and kept going but never nipped back or growled... After his overnight stays at the vet he was a changed dog. He keeps all fours on the ground and sniffs at the other dogs. He will then play bow and zip around and play bow again for a couple minutes and then decides it gets old himself and just completely ignores the other dog(s). What I am so terrified about is that I feel that he has made such great strides in being able to, if nothing else, be in the presence of other dogs... but knowing that he is only 1.5 years old also means that he is not fully matured and I don't want to become complacent and am so worried that i might... and even if I don't it only takes a second... He used to be much more rude than he is now...

I agree, this is a really interesting post! I watched the Riggs/Inara video about 8 times. What I noticed first was that while Inara was bouncing all around, wiggling, etc., Riggs was pulling very straight on toward her intently. To me, they did not look the same at all and Riggs' intentions did not look like play to me. After watching the video several times I noticed other differences. Inara's tail is wagging in a wide arc and her butt also wiggles. Riggs' tail is wagging in a much stiffer fashion, kept generally higher and his body is not wiggling along with his tail. The ears on the two dogs are different also. Inara's moving back and forth, Riggs' are basically much more still and focused toward her. Even though Inara seems clueless to Riggs' intentions and is not displaying proper dog manners, her movements are fluid and flowing. Riggs' movements are much stiffer and direct. Even the videos of Riggs with Alice(?) bothered me. How long were they together? Now, how genetics and early experience and development play into all of this is another very interesting subject.

cheekymunkee wrote:Good question & one that would be better answered by a game dog breeder. it seems they want to keep the 'sport' of dog fighting or matching alive and by breeding two very hot dogs they can have a better chance of having a hot litter. But, with this breed DA is a crap shoot. As you know you can breed 2 hot dogs together & get cold as ice puppies, just like with any breeding of any type of dog, the litter can be hit or miss.

Absolutely...puppies are always a crap shoot in any sport (whether it be bitesport or dogfighting)...I was more bringing it up just as point to be made...

pitbullmamaliz wrote:Regarding breeding urges vs. fighting urges, I know at least with Riggs, he's good with all females (except for Inara, apparently). So I would think breeding wouldn't be an issue with him. I think it does seem extreme if you have to use a breeding stand to breed two dogs.

I wasn't speaking of Riggs specifically as a breeding prospect (please don't take it that way, Michelle)...I was more speaking of the breed, in general...but used him as an example as he was the main subject of the post...I know people who own other breeds...and their dogs are DA even to a female in heat...and it's something that has always made me wonder...so, it was more to see what other people thought...

Also, as we talk about fighting "instinct" I wonder if it's appropriate to call it instinct. There was a psychology conference held in 1960, from which stemmed a book called "Instincts" (I don't own this book, however, it's cited in several of my Learning and Behavior textbooks)...according to the book, to truly be considered an instinct, the following criteria must be met. The behavior must:1) be Automatic2) be irresistible3) be triggered by some event in the environment4) occur at some point in development5) occur in every member of the species6) be unmodifiableand 7) govern behavior for which the organism needs no training

The book goes on to say that given this definition, there are no instinctual behaviors in humans, but other species show these instincts when it comes to migration, hibernation, and breeding. Furthermore, in animals, if the correct learning is somehow kept from being learned, then the instinctual behaviors disappear. This suggests that rather than being instinctual, they are, instead, very strong, however limited, biological predispositions...

How about the killer whale? I would consider it instinct to kill to eat, and people are in the food chain, however we train them day in a day out to not eat us. We kept their instinct at bay (except for incidents like recently) Then what is it? A killer whale killing? Not instinctual b/c not every whale does it?

Ryder - Rescue APBT Panser on a Roll - APBT (American Bully?)Gretchen - the red headed cat that thinks shes a dogPrudence - the new cat on the block to put the dogs in their place!Punchlines Better Than Lojac - APBT (RIP)

Quote .....We have worked our asses off in protection work to get him to bark at the decoy. The summer before I got him he was sent to California to be a Schutzhund dog. She sent him back because they couldn't get him to bark. He is finally barking somewhat consistantly, but once he really "narrows in" he goes back to being silent again.

He is controlled with obedience, but that's it. We have taken numerous training classes where we do off leash work with other dogs in the immediate vicinity. He ignores them because he's being told to. We actually left a class because the instructor refused to tell a few class members to keep their dogs out of his personal space. He's good, but not that good. the last straw was the CKC whose owner was busy talking to someone else and letting him run around. Riggs was in a down and the dog literally ran across his front legs. Way to risky for my taste and since other people can't be responsible, I left. ...Quote

Lojac....sigh, woudln't bark and when he did it was embarassing. Like a honking or howling. Wasn't very defensive. This being said, he was never reactive or barking at other dogs, but would lunge the second no one was looking. Polite little angel on leash, but he was always thinking, and the quieter he was the more I needed to think, what is going through his mind? It probably wasn't good!

Ryder - Rescue APBT Panser on a Roll - APBT (American Bully?)Gretchen - the red headed cat that thinks shes a dogPrudence - the new cat on the block to put the dogs in their place!Punchlines Better Than Lojac - APBT (RIP)