Members

Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

"This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Arcanum Returns: Arcanum to Shadowrun conversion

Let's do this, Codex! Who else loves Arcanum more than us, and knows Arcanum better than us (What's up, Drog?)? Who else has the will, resources and autism to update Arcanum into an experience for the 2016 gamer? Who else will make it so, except us?

As a community, let's rebuild Arcanum using the Shadowrun engine. Why the Shadowrun engine? Since it has built-in compatability with Arcanum's setting, and it's strength improves Arcanum's deepest flaw: Arcanum's banal combat engine. Yes, I hate Shadowrun's editor. It is a joke to call it a game editor. But it exists. And it's greatest asset, which are the graphical assets of the Shadowrun games, are things this project can use.

Using Shadowrun's graphic assets, we can remake Tarant, and Shrouded Hills, and Tullah. Tarant might look a little more like Seattle and less like London, but using the SR assets we don't need to convert Arcanum's graphical assets. It's mostly all there already. One less thing to worry about.

OK let's divide this project into several modular parts: 1) rule conversion 2) world building 3) game content.

1) Rule Conversion

A. Character system
Shadowrun has a similar character system to Arcanum. There are humans, elves, dwarves, orcs and trolls. Shadowrun is missing gnomes and halflings but then Arcanum was missing female gnomes and halflings too. So race is basically compatible betwen the two systems: if we figure out how to add gnomes and halflings later then sure let's do it, but basically it's already there.

Shadowrun's stat system is also similar to Arcanum. Both have a skill system tied to primary attributes, where to advance a skill the primary attribute must be raised first. Shadowrun has 6 stats while Arcanum has 8: Shadowrun does not have the quivalent of Perception and does not distinguish between Beauty and Charisma. I don't think Arcanum really misses Beauty- the game doesn't do anything with it anyway. Perception poses a bigger problem since the closest SR equivalent is Dexterity, which is already an overloaded stat. To alleviate this, SR moves melee to Stength- probably a reasonable change? Also, Shadowrun combat uses a fixed AP system instead of a Dex-based AP system so that helps alleviate Dex overload as well.

My opinion is that we can convert Arcanum's character system without making serious alterations to SR's system. We would have to implement several Arcanum skills, especially rogue skills, but that's not a major obstacle overall.

B. Character progress system

This is a big difference between Arcanum and SR. Arcanum has an experienced-based level system while SR has a Karma point reward system and progressively more expensive attribute and skill advancement. Here I prefer Shadowrun's system, where Karma is rewarded for completing quests and encounters, instead of for just hitting things. However, there are some real fundamental problems here. In Arcanum, primary attirbute advancement come at the expense of skill advancement- as a result in Arcanum it's rarely a good choice to spend level ups on stat boosts, whereas in Shadowrun most characters end up having 4-6's in nearly every stat. I'm not sure how to fix this.

C. Character class system

Here is where the two games are very compatible. Both have classless, open-ended character development. In both characters any character can learn any spell or skill. This leads us to the next two topics:

D. Arcanum magical/ technological aptitude system

This would have to be implemented in Shadowrun, but I think it would be a great improvement to Shadowrun's system. The problem with Shadowrun's character system is that you end up with a munchkin PC that casts spells, snipes, decks and has 2 drones following you around. Implementing an aptitude system in place of or in addition to Shadowrun's Essence system would help alleviate this. Magical aptitude could decrease accuracy with firearms and grenades, forcing magic characters to rely on melee or throwing knives, decrease drone accuracy, and deactivate cyberware. Technological aptitude decreases spell accuracy, increases spell cooldown and drain, cause spell failure.

E. Arcanum magical system

I think we could make this work by implementing all the spell schools as skills based off Willpower. Under Willpower there would be a primary skill, Magick Aptitude. Increasing this skill increases the character's magic stat, increasing spell effectiveness Under Magick Aptitude. Tied to these skills, each of the spell schools would be implemented as specialist skills, which unlock more powerful spells.

F. Arcanum crafting system

Just make this equivalent to the spell system, but based off Intellect. There would be a primary skill, Technology Aptitude, which decreases the character's magic stat. The science system would be implemented as special skills under this primary skill and unlock more powerful schematics.

Next I will discuss the world-building module. Please post your thoughts on this.

I read this article when I was 9. I've been waiting for VR for 28 years.

Here the two games are already compatible. Arcanum has guns, grenade launchers, swords, axes, bows, chakrums, grenades and spells. Shadowrun supports these weapons already. We'd have to implement bows but everything else should covert fine. Some weapons will need to implement magic/ technology aptitude requirements.

B. Armor system

Here the games are very different. Shadowrun's combat engine doesn't support a detailed, encumbrance-based armor system like Arcanum's. Defense in Shadowrun is skill, spell and cover based and less armor based. This impacts the crafting system since smithing's primary usefuless is access to top-end armor.

Shadowrun lacks a Shield system so that would have to be implemented.

C. Consumables system

I don't see any major changes here since Shadowrun already implements item-based healing (Herbalism), drugs (Therapeutics) and grenades (Explosives and Chemistry). Some consumbles will need to implement magic/ technology aptitude requirements.

E. Dialogue system

No real changes here iirc.

F. Rogue skill- Prowling/ Invisibility

Could enhance SR's ambush and cover systems.

G. Rogue skill- Traps

Perhaps setting traps can only be done during the ambush round?

H. Rogue skill- Spot

In addition to spotting traps, this could be used to balance Shadowrun: HK's broken ambush system- only combatants with enough spot skill can act during the ambush round.

I. Social skill - Gambling

Items should be tagged as expensive, equipped and exclusive.

J. Tech skills

hmm...

K. Training system

This can be implemented as personal skills gained upon completing the master quests.

L. Arcanum fate point system

What do you guys think, is this worth implementing?

Last edited: Dec 24, 2016

I read this article when I was 9. I've been waiting for VR for 28 years.

A. Arcanum main plot quest sequence
For me, Arcanum is best as a sandbox exploration game. I couldn't care less for the main plot. If people want to keep the same "Living One" main plot, I don't really care either way. Just let's open up the game world from the very beginning and get rid of the main quest gating.

This is a list of Arcanum supplementary systems that aren't native to Shadowrun's engine, so we would have to decide if they are worth the effort to implement or not.

A. Day/ Night system - actually I think the Shadowrun engine does have native support for day/ night iirc
B. Fate point system
C. Background character creation system
D. Bows and Crossbows
E. Armors and Shields system, 1 hand vs 2 hand weapons - should Blocking the implemented as a skill or should it be automatic?
F. Encumberance system
G. Gambling system
H. Equipment Durability/ Repair system
I. Reputation system
J. Gnomes and Halflings
K. Permanent mind control NPCs
L. Locked doors and objects system
M. Random wilderness encounter system

Last edited: Dec 24, 2016

I read this article when I was 9. I've been waiting for VR for 28 years.

You do realize this is a terrible idea right? Shadowrun returns & sequels doesn't have even 1/4 of the systems and mechanics implemented in code that arcanum needs. You'd need to reimplement everything without open source code access. Just the dialog engine is completely inadequate, not to mention objects in world, procedural zones, etc etc etc.

It reminds me of that effort to reimplement Torment as a NWN mod that naturally ended up with a completely different mod that was but a shadow of the idea, and pretty bad to boot. The only useful thing to come out of that was another tileset and creatures they say.

I just installed Arcanum to play it for the first time. It has beautiful atmosphere, why would you ruin it in another engine?

Btw, something like BG Enchanced Edition would be great for it. I can't make mine work with better resolution mod without getting wierd graphical glitches. Even though I would like only slight increase, not full 1080 shit.

Cyberpunk and Steampunk were essentially invented by the same guy, William Gibson. (apologies to Bruce Sterling)

I'm rereading Neuromancer, and it amazes me how it's nearly a 1:1 blueprint for creating Shadowrun.

Arcanum is a Steampunk game, with all the correct Shadowrun races, similar skills abilities, setting etc. All that needs be done is re-writing, changing art assets, and more projectile weapons etc. That would probably cost millions, but it's not a bad idea in principle. I can't imagine it's easy to mod Arcanum tho, might as well do a complete rewrite.

Anyway :creative:, if unrealistic, idea Jason.

EDIT:

I didn't bother to actually read the OP, but I'm leaving my response as is for mockery/consideration.

I thank god every day I drank that sodium lye at 18 months old. What a blessing. Like the radioactive spider that bit Peter Parker, it was the most incredible thing that could ever happen to a human being.

INTELLECT
*technology aptitude - each point decreases magic by 1
-smithy - this is used for repair/ drone repair, and used to craft armor
-mechanical - this is used for drone control
-gun smithy - this is used for drone combat
-electrical
-herbology - used to craft healing consumables
-therapeutics - used to craft drug consumables
-chemistry
-explosives - used to craft grenades
*gambling
*heal - this is used for biotech

More options

Using Shadowrun's graphic assets, we can remake Tarant, and Shrouded Hills, and Tullah. Tarant might look a little more like Seattle and less like London, but using the SR assets we don't need to convert Arcanum's graphical assets. It's mostly all there already. One less thing to worry about.

Click to expand...

So you're saying this remake is going to look like an uglier and half-arsed copy of the original game

A. Arcanum main plot quest sequence
For me, Arcanum is best as a sandbox exploration game. I couldn't care less for the main plot. If people want to keep the same "Living One" main plot, I don't really care either way. Just let's open up the game world from the very beginning and get rid of the main quest gating.

Click to expand...

You're already chopping and changing the game as you please, i.e. you're being exactly that shitty new dev who has no connection to the original game but randomly decides to change bits and pieces and then calll it a remake

Also if you've ever watched projects like these, they aren't done by 50 people, they are typically done by 1 or 2 people who have a very clear vision of what they want to achieve + a few part-time helpers. If you're passionate about this why not set out to create an Arcanum spinoff in the Shadowrun engine - i.e. a Shadowrun mod set in the Arcanum setting geared towards the things you like and with a manageable size (i.e. 3-4 hours)?

First, I recognize to remake the whole game is a gargantuan task. But one of the virtues of the Shadowrun editor is you can work on projects one mission at a time. In fact, multiple people can each work on different content. The structure of Shadowrun's game engine might seem horribly coded but it makes a lot of sense from a development perspective.

Second, no I'm not passionate enough about Arcanum to do all this work by myself. So it has to be a project for several people working together. Maybe I can figure out how to mod the initial ruleset conversions to get things started, but developing actual game content, which is the meat of the remake, I wouldn't be interested in.

Third, what I'm saying is you basically have most of the art assets already to do Arcanum. Shadowrun already has art assets for cities and gothic buildings and sewers and rivers and forests. That's huge. It's going to look much better than the original Arcanum. Most of you seem to be remembering Arcanum's graphics through rose tinted glasses.

Fourth, we wouldn't be changing the game randomly, we would be remaking the parts of the game that were made half assed, such as encounter design and fedex quests. Beauty is a dump stat. And Arcanum is no sacred cow that we can't touch up even a single line of dialogue. Arcanum is a good rpg saddled with very deep flaws.

I have an exact model for how this works, and it's the best model for an independently developed RPG mod: Neverwinter Nights. Yes, you have individuals and and small teams each working on their own modules. But the result isn't small bits of adventure, but a sandbox of adventures universally unified through community resources like CEP that hundreds of people have contributed to. Each of them took the time to learn how to work in Aurora engine, and then each used that knowledge to create a small piece of a vast rpg universe. Arcanum remade in Shadowrun's engine can be like that. Start small, start with Shrouded Hills, one mission at a time. That's also why we have to get rid of quest gating.

I recognize that perhaps Codex is a terrible place to recruit from this project. Codexians are a bunch of bums. Most of you will play it.. if someone else makes it. It feels like trying to recruit crew in Bermuda in Pirates! But this is a gargantuan project that's going to need, as you said, 50 or more people to accomplish. But if 50 Codexians worked on this a few hours every week, we could get this done.

So: How many Codexians does it take to remake Arcanum?

Last edited: Dec 25, 2016

I read this article when I was 9. I've been waiting for VR for 28 years.

Bad idea, only thing you can do in Shadowrun Editor is Shadowrun campain.
Also pointless as Shadowrun engine is more simplistic and limited than Arcanum.

Click to expand...

The only things that actually need advanced .byte hacking is character creation and character advancement, and we can even jury-rig that with some creative implementation.

We can already create new weapons, equipment, spells and abilities in the Shadowrun engine, so basically we can already implement half the things in 1) rule conversion and pretty much everything in 2) world building.

And everything done in game content can be done with just the editor.

In fact, 1) rule conversion 2) world building and 3) game content can be implemented independent of each other. Converting Arcanum's rules to Shadowrun's engine boils down to simply implementing new equipment, spells and abilities. Converting Arcanum's game content doesn't even require any rule changes; again, all we need to implement first is new equipment, spells and abilities.

We can basically implement converted Arcanum skills as abilities and stat modifiers granted by clothing. Character advancement is just character modification, and character modification can be implemented very simply through equipment such as clothing or cyberware/ bioware. This is how Gaichu is implemented in SR: HK. In fact, thinking about it, I would bet this is how NPC special abilities are implemented in Dragonfall/ HK.

In other words, we can simulate Arcanum character advancement by a clothing and/or cyberware system already native to Shadowrun's game engine. Once we've implemented this, all the other work (game content) can be done through the basic editor.

Last edited: Dec 25, 2016

I read this article when I was 9. I've been waiting for VR for 28 years.

In addition to SR's Magic loss through essence loss, Magic is further controlled by 2 new primary skills: Technology Aptitude and Magick Aptitude.

Skill: Technological Aptitude [TA] is based on the Intellect attribute. Increasing TA unlocks the Techonological Discipline skills and each point of TA decreases Magic by 1.
Skill: Magick Aptitude [MA] is based on the Willpower attribute. Increasing MA unlocks the Magickal College skills and each point of MA increases Magic by 1.

The Magic attribute ranges from 0-10. A Magic of 5, which can be achieved by any character with 1 point in TA, indicates exact neutral aptitude. At 5 magic, the character will suffer slight penalties to both Magic and Technology. He suffers the standard SR spellcasting penalties, and accuracy penalties to Tech attacks, but will not suffer Tech critical failure risk and will be able to use most basic cyber implant equipment.

At 6+ Magic, the character suffers no spellcasting penalities but will incur critical failure risk and accuracy penalty with Tech attacks such as guns and grenades.

At 4 Magic or below the character suffers no critical failure risk and accuracy penalty with Technology attacks, but suffer the standard SR spellcasting penalties.

For each point of Magic above 5, the character takes 20% more Spell damage and 20% less Tech damage (such as from guns). At 10 Magic, a character takes 100% more Spell damage and becomes immune to Tech damage.

For each point of Magic below 5, the character takes 20% more Tech damage and 20% less Spell damage. At 0 Magic, a character takes 100% more Tech damage and becomes immune to Spell damage.

Some Tech equipment and Cyber implants will have a Magic maximum requirement and become unusable or deactive if the character's Magic is too high.

Last edited: Dec 25, 2016

I read this article when I was 9. I've been waiting for VR for 28 years.

Our other significant change to SR's rule set is to implement ARC's Thief skills Prowl, Backstab, Pickpocket, Trap and Spot. We can convert ARC's systems into SR's system using the Ambush system introduced in SR: HK. SR's ambush system allows us to simulate ARC's enter combat toggle.

IMPLEMENTATION

We implement Thief skills by creating new skills which grant characters abilities while in Ambush mode.

Skill: Spot is primarily used to control if and when characters are able to enter Ambush mode. It allows allows characters to see Traps in Ambush and Combat mode.

In our Beta implementation, Spot is equivalent to Ranged Combat skill. We simulate the skill through abilities granted by Body slot cyberware equipment.

Skill: Prowl is primarily used to control if the character is detected in Ambush mode by patrolling NPCs. Ambush mode ends and becomes Combat mode once characters are detected. It also unlocks Backstab, Pickpocket and Trap skills.

In our Beta implementation, Prowl as well as Backstab, Pickpocket and Trap are all equivalent to Dodge skill. We simulate these skills through abilities granted by Body slot cyberware equipment.

Skill: Backstab gives the character attack abilities that have increased critical chance and increased damage while in Ambush, Overwatch or Flanking. Backstab also grant attack abilities that don't end Ambush mode if they successfully incapacitate or kill the target.

Skill: Trap gives the character abilities that set and disarm traps and explosives during Ambush mode. Traps that successfully incapacitate or kill patrolling NPCs during Ambush mode don't end Ambush mode.

Skill: Pickpocket gives the character abilities that steal equipment from NPCs while in Ambush mode or Overwatch. It also gives the character abilities that plant equipment and exlosives on NPCs during Ambush or Overwatch mode.

I read this article when I was 9. I've been waiting for VR for 28 years.