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Ellen042

Ellen042

"It would be nice to understand the mechanism of this more. I suspect it involves an interaction of psychological vulnerabilities with neuro dysregulation."

I'd love to understand the mechanism of this more too. I suspect the same as you. I suspect further that all of our feelings are neurologically driven. I see our "inner selves" as our soul. And our soul, at least from a Christian perspective, includes our mind, will, and emotions. And of course the mind, will and emotions are neurologically driven.

So the question as to whether an emotion is real or not hangs not on whether it's neurologically driven, but whether it originates in our soul. If it originates in our soul it is real, but if it doesn't, it's simply neurons misfiring for whatever reason.

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Meimeiquest

Meimeiquest

It feels to me like I gather pieces of memory and ways of doing things and put them together in the wrong way sometimes.

I read a book called The Brain and the Mind that was fascinating but way too detailed. But researchers have measured the gap between an impulse for a thought and the doing of it. That opportunity is really, really short, but it does exist...although I don't know about during WD. I am switching from solids to liquids today, and I am A MESS.

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Nikki

Nikki

Just read this and even though it is about Serzone, it applies to all meds....

It is best to gradually reduce the dosage you are prescribed, but if you should discontinue Serzone abruptly, the drug will be out of your system within eighteen hours. That is the good news. The bad new is you may have increased feelings of suicide, manic behavior, jitters, or restlessness. Putting it in layman's terms you may want to rip someone's head off for no reason or just plain not know what to do with yourself and literally feel like you are about to crawl out of your skin! Please keep in mind that you are feeling this way because of the drugs. Do things that keep you out of your head. Do not sit at home and sulk. I know that is what you feel like doing, but it is definitely not the best thing for you. If you want to be alone, take a walk, swim, feed ducks at a nearby pond. In other words, if your body is busy, your mind will not be racing and dwelling on thoughts of unhappiness. It may also be as simple as taking a drive with an upbeat song playing loudly. Sing along even if you feel like a dork and people are staring! If you would not mind company, then go get coffee or dinner with a close friend or relative. Ask them to take a walk with you or go miniature golfing or to the beach (if you have one) or swimming. Talk about anything other than feeling sorry for yourself. I am not trying to be insensitive. I know it is hard for you, but trust me, if you dwell on it, you will only feel worse. If you need to disclose how you are feeling then get it out and move on.

It is best to discuss with your doctor regarding any changes with your prescription(s). I wish you great success and hope that my advice has or will help you in some small way. Coping with withdrawals from antidepressants is not easy, but I hope reading this will make it a little bit easier of a transition for you.

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MissSerene

MissSerene

I find often that it's wise to get out of my head; it's easy to dwell on the negative. When I'm paying attention, I recognize that it's not that hard to change my mood by shifting attention away from from sad, anxious, or self-defeating rumination. For me, it's hard at times to distinguish between an "authentic" feeling that needs to be acknowledged, processed, and released, and a "surface" or habitual thought or emotion that it's better to distracted myself from. Nikki, I like your post...not insensitive. It sounds smart. Now if I could just do it!!

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btdt

btdt

I find often that it's wise to get out of my head; it's easy to dwell on the negative. When I'm paying attention, I recognize that it's not that hard to change my mood by shifting attention away from from sad, anxious, or self-defeating rumination. For me, it's hard at times to distinguish between an "authentic" feeling that needs to be acknowledged, processed, and released, and a "surface" or habitual thought or emotion that it's better to distracted myself from. Nikki, I like your post...not insensitive. It sounds smart. Now if I could just do it!!

Before I could get my head to work in being able to focus well enough to do any decent relaxation I got to my brain thru my body.

headphones with sounds of the ocean

heat on my spine in a 45 degree angle comfy for me position.

for some reason this brought down the tension... held with in my nervous system... it helped. Tho not a miracle.

Walking every day helped too.

When I was too wired to sit still I walked and walked and walked. It took me a long time to get to the point where I could use words to settle things... the watching for the next thought idea came from a book called the power of now that stopped my brain going on and on about things and quieted the noise. It took a lot of practice to get good at it.

Timing is important if all you can do at some points is point is walk then walk if you can sit with sounds of the ocean then do that... since withdrawal is always changing you have to be ready to change it up... keep addressing it... as this is how it goes.

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milkandmarble

milkandmarble

the concept of neuro-emotions during withdrawal is somewhat daunting to me. I think it's because I have long suspected my emotions of being neuro-emotions (exaggerated, that is) throughout my SSRI use. I would say my husband has contributed to this through his reaction to my anger / criticism. Basically, it works like this: I feel upset / frustrated / hurt / angry about something and try to address it with my husband and through the discussion I begin to doubt that my feelings / emotions are justified and wonder if they are an exaggerated response or do I have a real reason to feel them.

The conflict is:Is this a real feeling? Is this just what I feel but not what I should be feeling?

Is anything really objectively wrong? Is this all in my head?

How can I tell the difference?

How do I know what is justifiable anger?

My psychotherapist has actually been working with me to learn to respect these emotions, to believe my own feelings, that they are real. Faced with the possibility of "neuro-emotions" I am afraid I will only question myself further - leading to more confusion / self-doubt.

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Petunia

Petunia

My psychotherapist has actually been working with me to learn to respect these emotions, to believe my own feelings, that they are real. Faced with the possibility of "neuro-emotions" I am afraid I will only question myself further - leading to more confusion / self-doubt.

I can see how this would be a problem if your psychotherapist doesn't understand the chemical emotions (neuro-emotions) of withdrawal. They are real in as much as we feel them, but they are either not appropriate for the situation or overly intense due to our temporarily increased sensitivity.

I think you can still respect these feelings, acknowledge them and let them go. Even when emotions are very intense, we still have a choice over whether we act on them. In these situations, perhaps you could wait until the emotion has passed and you are feeling calmer and then decide in a rational way if you want to include your husband.

Through my own withdrawal, I've experienced some of the most intense emotions of my life, often triggered by other people, I've become very good at keeping my mouth closed and breathing (through my nose ) until I've calmed down. Most of the time I can see that my reaction was an over reaction and not something I want to address (at this point anyway). I've had to force myself to remember who I really am and focus on my values so that I can behave in a way I want to, rather than what my emotions are driving me towards. But its been very challenging.

You asked "How do I know what is justifiable anger?"

I don't think anyone has to justify any emotion, we feel what we feel, even if its a neuro-feeling. But we need to recognize that our emotions come from us, not someone else and so we are responsible for how we respond to what we feel. While under the influence of a strong emotion, its easy to over react, learning mindfulness techniques is helpful for that. Mindfulness is a way of experiencing our feelings and other perceptions, without reacting to them. Perhaps your therapist could help with that.

Only you can decide if there is something your husband is doing which is hurtful, but its best to think about it from a place of calm.

Just my opinion, on what I think is an important and confusing issue, I wonder how others deal with this.

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milkandmarble

milkandmarble

Thank you, Petu, for your long and considered response. I relate to what you are saying about keeping your mouth closed and breathing through anger instead of acting on it. I do this with my two young daughters A LOT because it's much easier for me to recognize the inappropriateness of my feelings. It is just so hard to control your environment when there are young kids in your full time care - it's not possible to get silence, time alone, time to get out, etc. It's made more complicated with the hubbie because a lot of our issues are long standing communication issues that I have thought about over and over again. It's not usually off the cuff things that piss me off / hurt me - it's more recurring behaviour (i.e. not contributing to any administration of house, leaving everything to me, etc.) - but I actually start to confuse myself when I try to think about it in detail.

I agree that mindfulness is a powerful tool. My previous MD (prior to my geographic move) was trained in mindfulness techniques and I even did a support group that focused on using mindfulness to aid in depression. I had a ton of trouble keeping my practice up and I wonder if some of that was due to the flattening effects of Celexa. Focus and just staying present can be very very hard for me. In fact, often in therapy (I am currently in weekly psychotherapy with an MD psychotherapist) my brain just seems to shut down when there is a difficult question / issue and truly blanks out. Sometimes this comes with a feeling of nausea. It's like my body literally prevents me from feeling the emotion / confronting the issue. It's something I really hope improves as I lower my SSRI dose. I feel incapable of sticking with practice, meditation, etc. Last week I almost ran out of a yoga class because I could hardly stand myself - trying to tune into my body felt so strenuous emotionally.

All of this reflects a core dichotomy I've never really got a grip on: to feel better do I need to change things in my life or do I just need to change the way I think about things in my life? Is my depression partly circumstantial or is it me? I know no one can answer these questions but me but I'm sharing them here as they are the ones that haunt me.

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btdt

btdt

Just read this and even though it is about Serzone, it applies to all meds....

It is best to gradually reduce the dosage you are prescribed, but if you should discontinue Serzone abruptly, the drug will be out of your system within eighteen hours. That is the good news. The bad new is you may have increased feelings of suicide, manic behavior, jitters, or restlessness. Putting it in layman's terms you may want to rip someone's head off for no reason or just plain not know what to do with yourself and literally feel like you are about to crawl out of your skin! Please keep in mind that you are feeling this way because of the drugs. Do things that keep you out of your head. Do not sit at home and sulk. I know that is what you feel like doing, but it is definitely not the best thing for you. If you want to be alone, take a walk, swim, feed ducks at a nearby pond. In other words, if your body is busy, your mind will not be racing and dwelling on thoughts of unhappiness. It may also be as simple as taking a drive with an upbeat song playing loudly. Sing along even if you feel like a dork and people are staring! If you would not mind company, then go get coffee or dinner with a close friend or relative. Ask them to take a walk with you or go miniature golfing or to the beach (if you have one) or swimming. Talk about anything other than feeling sorry for yourself. I am not trying to be insensitive. I know it is hard for you, but trust me, if you dwell on it, you will only feel worse. If you need to disclose how you are feeling then get it out and move on.

It is best to discuss with your doctor regarding any changes with your prescription(s). I wish you great success and hope that my advice has or will help you in some small way. Coping with withdrawals from antidepressants is not easy, but I hope reading this will make it a little bit easier of a transition for you.

Maybe these things are doable for taper people I don't know but I was a long time before I got to place where I could get out of bed tolerate music ect... months. I am putting this here for others like me I don't want them to think they are not represented here. Some of us have a more devastating initiation it could be because of cold turkey but I am leaving the door open to taper too just in case we don't know everything we actually know very little.

I have been thinking about neuro emotion and am not sure I represented it properly to date in this thread. I want to clear up what is has been like for me... and add another bit some but not all may have in tandem with it.

For me neuro emotion has been a bit like losing my mind or being taken over by an alien it feels that foreign to me. It is a state where I am out of control of my self and my responses.

Things are said and done by me that are completely opposite of who I am or what I think or feel when I am in my right mind.

I have said some horrid things ...sometimes not recalling what I said later. I have broken and thrown things juice once. Big mess to clean up I did not clean it and I feel guilty for that but truth is I had to crawl up the stairs I was so ill I could not walk... sorry have rest out of battery...will be back

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btdt

btdt

It has been a sudden unexpected response or a longer lasting unnoticed state that lingers and only when a response is out of line do I sometimes notice I have been off base for a bit. Some times I have been off base for a bit and sometimes I am unaware if I have been. I think checking in with self and testing where your at comes further long in healing so don't be too dismayed if you have not developed this skill early on I think it takes time and work to develop. I think awareness is a foundation to getting a handle on neuro emotions. Being able to do this is part work as in doing self care on a regular basis. I think of it as maintenance but do forget when I have had a good spell as it is easy to let it slip when life seems kind of normal or at the other extreme it is easy to let it slip when life is horrid and your overwhelmed... your more apt to reach for self care tools when life is bad... and try them at least. I find self care does not work as well when I am overwhelmed by grief ect... it takes a lot more energy and work to reach something close to my baseline.

This is all extra work to do something that came completely naturally to me in my before med life and I have to say I resent the fact that this completely natural state of balance once taken for granted by me and still taken for granted by the majority of the human race. I resent it. I will bet you may too but post drugs we don't have any choice this is what we are left with. The sooner we can find the tools that work for us and apply them on a sustained basis the sooner we can find relief from some of it. Getting back to baseline and staying there for me is the goal. I am hoping that the more often I do this the more it will be recognized by my body as its natural state so my body knows what to shoot for in regulation.

I am hoping and kind of believe in my bodies feed back mechanisms to feed a decent state of being into the body so it can learn to do this once natural calm state all by itself eventually.

I think part of it is time as in having to reach a point in healing where the dis- regulation caused by withdrawal was less...for example early stages where physical dis regulation was paramount... bp was up and down ... ect... all those physical thing caused my focus to be on the physical. In this state of healing neuro emotions were still an issue but Until I could stand without my bp dropping... eat... regulate body temp... dizzy spins... vomiting - for me these things were first.

Till these physical issues settled down some there was little chance I was going to care notice or work on the neuro emotions that does not mean they were not there...they were just second class in terms of importance. I can find nothing to offer for this physical state that I have not written here about already.

I just want to note there was a time where I could not related to neuro emotion or other peoples withdrawal experience as mine was different... I took a time of physical healing before I could get to a point of being physically well enough to start to deal with the neuro issues.

Again I think feed back to the brain is a healing tool we need to think about to employ... even in physical. It is like we are retraining our brains to do things they should know to do but seemingly have forgotten.

Walking is a training for the brain... for instance I did this with a hot pack on my back as my body temp was always low and cramps would keep me house bound when I tried to walk by doing this I think I trained my body what it was shooting for. Humans were made to move so soon as you can add some movement to your day ... add some asap even if it is just stretching in bed.

This is what I think for body as well as the rest... if we are working towards our bodies being well and pain free we need to move we need to listen to our bodies if they hurt sooth them... cold add heat... tired rest... this too is all part of being aware. It is the same thing for neuro emotions long stretches of negativity caused me to stay away from negative things I did not watch the news.. i controlled my environment as much as possible I took a look at myself and what was making me worse... and stopped those things where I could and took myself out of other situations where I could not control it.

This may help... it is trick I did... as I worked with kids in my before life I would observe a child to see what was distressing them advice a plan to get the child beyond it to what was thought of as normal functioning... I do that with myself now. It is work they use to pay me well for this For me I could not do this till a certain stage of healing had been reached...that may not be true completely but the more I improved the better I was able to see my issues and work on them the better my awareness around all these issues became. I had a lot to learn and it took a long time to learn as it was mostly flying by the seat of my pants. Like developing a plan for a child that did not fit any of the known syndromes kind of normal as there are so many syndromes. First it takes study and before that it takes a state of functioning that I had not reached. One thing I learned early on was many drugs were going to react differently on my now altered systems and recovering from trying to normalize using drugs added to the angst of my healing. Adverse and paradoxical reactions to drug in this altered state for me was the norm not the exception and a leading cause of losing physician support as I sure felt not believed and know when doctors seen me coming they cringed... as things they were trying to use to help me often hurt me and perplexed them.... easier to write me off then take me on. I could see this eventually... and I get it who wants to do their best and have it fail time and again. Only one doctor stayed open to my issues and I think I have about used up all his grace. We have to keep our heads when this happens and keep our resolve to heal with or without the help of doctors. I know it is a challenge but like everything else in withdrawal it all comes down to what are my options... we don't have any choice so onward and upward towards healing and sorting it out.

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CCS

CCS

guys. It has been a while. Still trying to survive tge drug! Been of Cymgen for about 2 months now. Can withdrawal cause ocd and rumination? Please help me. I am experiencing extreme guilt feelings regarding my action while I was on this drug and drinking along with it. Please tell me this will pass? Ps - i have no history of ocd. Was taking Cymbalta for pain. Is this neuro emotions im having??? Thanks for your help.

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milkandmarble

milkandmarble

It has been a sudden unexpected response or a longer lasting unnoticed state that lingers and only when a response is out of line do I sometimes notice I have been off base for a bit. Some times I have been off base for a bit and sometimes I am unaware if I have been. I think checking in with self and testing where your at comes further long in healing so don't be too dismayed if you have not developed this skill early on I think it takes time and work to develop. I think awareness is a foundation to getting a handle on neuro emotions. Being able to do this is part work as in doing self care on a regular basis. I think of it as maintenance but do forget when I have had a good spell as it is easy to let it slip when life seems kind of normal or at the other extreme it is easy to let it slip when life is horrid and your overwhelmed... your more apt to reach for self care tools when life is bad... and try them at least. I find self care does not work as well when I am overwhelmed by grief ect... it takes a lot more energy and work to reach something close to my baseline.

This is all extra work to do something that came completely naturally to me in my before med life and I have to say I resent the fact that this completely natural state of balance once taken for granted by me and still taken for granted by the majority of the human race. I resent it. I will bet you may too but post drugs we don't have any choice this is what we are left with. The sooner we can find the tools that work for us and apply them on a sustained basis the sooner we can find relief from some of it. Getting back to baseline and staying there for me is the goal. I am hoping that the more often I do this the more it will be recognized by my body as its natural state so my body knows what to shoot for in regulation.

I am hoping and kind of believe in my bodies feed back mechanisms to feed a decent state of being into the body so it can learn to do this once natural calm state all by itself eventually.

I think part of it is time as in having to reach a point in healing where the dis- regulation caused by withdrawal was less...for example early stages where physical dis regulation was paramount... bp was up and down ... ect... all those physical thing caused my focus to be on the physical. In this state of healing neuro emotions were still an issue but Until I could stand without my bp dropping... eat... regulate body temp... dizzy spins... vomiting - for me these things were first.

Till these physical issues settled down some there was little chance I was going to care notice or work on the neuro emotions that does not mean they were not there...they were just second class in terms of importance. I can find nothing to offer for this physical state that I have not written here about already.

I just want to note there was a time where I could not related to neuro emotion or other peoples withdrawal experience as mine was different... I took a time of physical healing before I could get to a point of being physically well enough to start to deal with the neuro issues.

Again I think feed back to the brain is a healing tool we need to think about to employ... even in physical. It is like we are retraining our brains to do things they should know to do but seemingly have forgotten.

Walking is a training for the brain... for instance I did this with a hot pack on my back as my body temp was always low and cramps would keep me house bound when I tried to walk by doing this I think I trained my body what it was shooting for. Humans were made to move so soon as you can add some movement to your day ... add some asap even if it is just stretching in bed.

This is what I think for body as well as the rest... if we are working towards our bodies being well and pain free we need to move we need to listen to our bodies if they hurt sooth them... cold add heat... tired rest... this too is all part of being aware. It is the same thing for neuro emotions long stretches of negativity caused me to stay away from negative things I did not watch the news.. i controlled my environment as much as possible I took a look at myself and what was making me worse... and stopped those things where I could and took myself out of other situations where I could not control it.

This may help... it is trick I did... as I worked with kids in my before life I would observe a child to see what was distressing them advice a plan to get the child beyond it to what was thought of as normal functioning... I do that with myself now. It is work they use to pay me well for this For me I could not do this till a certain stage of healing had been reached...that may not be true completely but the more I improved the better I was able to see my issues and work on them the better my awareness around all these issues became. I had a lot to learn and it took a long time to learn as it was mostly flying by the seat of my pants. Like developing a plan for a child that did not fit any of the known syndromes kind of normal as there are so many syndromes. First it takes study and before that it takes a state of functioning that I had not reached. One thing I learned early on was many drugs were going to react differently on my now altered systems and recovering from trying to normalize using drugs added to the angst of my healing. Adverse and paradoxical reactions to drug in this altered state for me was the norm not the exception and a leading cause of losing physician support as I sure felt not believed and know when doctors seen me coming they cringed... as things they were trying to use to help me often hurt me and perplexed them.... easier to write me off then take me on. I could see this eventually... and I get it who wants to do their best and have it fail time and again. Only one doctor stayed open to my issues and I think I have about used up all his grace. We have to keep our heads when this happens and keep our resolve to heal with or without the help of doctors. I know it is a challenge but like everything else in withdrawal it all comes down to what are my options... we don't have any choice so onward and upward towards healing and sorting it out.

Hope this is helpful...peace.

Hi bddt - I just read this now - I'm sorry I didn't respond sooner. I am still figuring out this website and am not very good at it. In fact, I really don't know what to read most of the time and I just poke around and read bits of people's experiences.

In any case, I really appreciate the thoughts you shared about neuro-emotions. I feel like reading it right now is actually appropriate because I feel like I'm quite stable at the moment (I just had another taper 3 days ago so I am bracing myself for another wave) and am trying to gauge myself and what is normal for me. Irritability is my main neuro-emotion right now and it is manageable most of the time. Following another member's advice, I often just try to bite my tongue instead of verbalizing the frustration / rage I am feeling. This is often read as withdrawal / apathy when, in fact, it is a white-knuckling attempt to keep myself from exploding. Still, by holding it together, I avoid the self-loathing and regret that I feel after expressing my irritation most of the time (especially if it involves my kids).

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Fireball2014

Fireball2014

The anxiety and fear and dread on my days off from work are overwhelming for me. I have been reading through threads in search of some thought/direction on this and have stopped here. I need hope. Hope that I will heal eventually from these neuro-emotions. I feel like they want to destroy me sometimes. Can't imagine that I will still have to deal with this when I am done with my taper. I have to think positive thoughts only somehow. I know my physical symptoms been

improving but mentally unless I am focused on one thing like going to work, I become useless quickly. I guess that IS the positive, that I can work! It's hard to PLAN to do anything as well, never mind doing it! I feel like going back to counseling because maybe that would help me redirect but I am unable to do it. I just go to acupuncture right now. I guess that's something!

I really feel for those of you that have protracted withdrawal because I myself have to find a way to continue to endure in a positive way hopefully.

It is so sad that Robin Williams could endure no more... I've got to be able to believe again that a higher power is with me. I pray for all of you...

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btdt

btdt

The anxiety and fear and dread on my days off from work are overwhelming for me. I have been reading through threads in search of some thought/direction on this and have stopped here. I need hope. Hope that I will heal eventually from these neuro-emotions. I feel like they want to destroy me sometimes. Can't imagine that I will still have to deal with this when I am done with my taper. I have to think positive thoughts only somehow. I know my physical symptoms been

improving but mentally unless I am focused on one thing like going to work, I become useless quickly. I guess that IS the positive, that I can work! It's hard to PLAN to do anything as well, never mind doing it! I feel like going back to counseling because maybe that would help me redirect but I am unable to do it. I just go to acupuncture right now. I guess that's something!

I really feel for those of you that have protracted withdrawal because I myself have to find a way to continue to endure in a positive way hopefully.

It is so sad that Robin Williams could endure no more... I've got to be able to believe again that a higher power is with me. I pray for all of you...

I think we all white knuckled half our withdrawal away if not more than half. lately I learned a new meditation

it goes like this

think of a time in your past where you felt peaceful

take some time to do this as it is a big part of this meditation

this part took my awhile as I kept thinking of something then went this other memory was better.

Take a few breaths and try to feel that way again the essence of how it felt

Sit in the feeling

use these words to meditate on

peace

harmony

laughter

love

I found for me a time where I had not only peace but vitality was the winner... peace alone was not as good as peace and vitality... I think I am needing both... whatever memory you pick may also be what you need.

peace...

oh and for trying to decide what to read if you go to the top right side of the page and click on your name a drop down list will appear there you will find my content... if you want to read replies people have made to your posts that is where you will find them.

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Fireball2014

Fireball2014

I thank you so much btdt for your kind words and meditation suggestions. When I feel so anxious and stuck I have a hard time remembering a peaceful & vital time. My head is wrapped up in all that I have neglected or can't move through - I feel like I don't know how to do anything anymore sometimes! Again this is when I'm at home. At work probably because I need to be so focused I am mostly ok. Today is a hard day again. I need someone else to direct me because I just go around in circles, any simple decision/task is insurmountable for me. At least I did not wake up this way. The dread, anxiety, fear surfaced as I proceeded through the day. This cannot go on forever, I want to be able to be there for my husband, too. I will return to this conversation soon...

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fritz1234567

fritz1234567

This is a great topic for me. I'm retired and doing slow taper. Seem to need people around all of the time. My poor husband is my support and he's also retired. I can't stand loud sounds and little things that didn't bother me before seem to bother me now. Hammer pounding - drilling etc, and my husband is a project person within the house. He is now trying to understand more - live in the country - sort of isolated. Try to get out every couple of days and talk with friends or just get out. Not as interested in hobbies I once liked. Exercising and eating right - but still feel lonely and depressed. Guess that's normal with this tapering. Tired of it but will not quit until I'm done. I could talk all day if there was someone close by to listen to me or have a conversation. Don't know why I'm so needy right now - anyone else this way?

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btdt

btdt

"It would be nice to understand the mechanism of this more. I suspect it involves an interaction of psychological vulnerabilities with neuro dysregulation." I'd love to understand the mechanism of this more too. I suspect the same as you. I suspect further that all of our feelings are neurologically driven. I see our "inner selves" as our soul. And our soul, at least from a Christian perspective, includes our mind, will, and emotions. And of course the mind, will and emotions are neurologically driven. So the question as to whether an emotion is real or not hangs not on whether it's neurologically driven, but whether it originates in our soul. If it originates in our soul it is real, but if it doesn't, it's simply neurons misfiring for whatever reason.

" mind, will and emotions are neurologically driven" I think us here know they are neuro-chemically driven... these drugs were designed to change how we think and how we act or react and they do.

I think it depends on how you think of soul... is it part of your mind where you decide what is ok and what is not ok... is it in some respect what your aware of as in consciousness?

I wrote something once of how my consciousness changed while I was drugged...how I could not get back to myself or a certain part of my brain I once could access that was no longer available. I for one think there is something big to this but it is difficult to define.

I think to for those of use who have had extreme personality changes and did extreme things while drugged will have a better understanding of this only because of the extemeness not because it is not happening to many in a lesser way.

To the women and men out there who quit their jobs left their families walked away from the things that meant the most to them only to wake up when they were off the drug and be stunned at where there were. It is baffling yet it is common common enough.

I am one of those people.

While drugged I had many signs changes in personality that showed up in burst of anger ... for not apparent reason matching the intensity of the anger or the physical reaction.

I grabbed people ... I did... hard to believe now I had bar fights I had arguments on topics I would now consider stupid.

All that said this is a withdrawal site and when I was in early withdrawal or even when I was taking the drugs I could not see what other people seen... I had outbursts when I was drugged but in withdrawal there were more outbursts that came on suddenly I could hear a voice saying words that were not mine... I know that feeling I also know the feeling that the bottom had fallen out of my life when nothing big had happened ...

ALL OF THIS I LATE LEARNED TO BE DECEPTION OF WITHDRAWAL....

You can't see it when you in it.. you will see it later or I did.

There is more to these drugs than you see... only experiencing them and the recovery from them can teach the truth of them. Explaining it to others who have not lived it is a tricky process... and nobody believes it anyway.

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btdt

btdt

I was thinking of leaving my husband and children - like I sometimes don't want to be around them. Is this a neuro emotion because I was always the opposite - couldn't bare am hour away from them!

I am not sure if it fits with neuro emotion exactly or not but this sort of life decision that goes against all you have ever been is part of what people will tell you is a complete 180 personality change.

I had it and so have many others it is very common.

During my fallout I ended up living with my adult child who had a room mate. I left and moved into a shelter as I could not tolerate being there. I lived in a shelter for 6 wks or a bit more may never have went back. The deciding factor was pain... a migraine shelters don't have air conditioning or that one didn't... ( not a lifestyle I knew so this is my only shelter experience) I had paid for the air conditioning in the condo went back and turned it on and went to bed. Explain it... I don't know that I could if pressed... I really don't know that is how messy my thoughts were.

As for personality changes many have them but I am not sure they are not part of neuro emotions the only difference is where you want to cut off the criteria.. really do you have them when drugged... during reaction... in withdrawal.

We could use some study on it in the mean time use what works leave the rest.

It is hard enough to live thru this without have to define the terms of your illness if you want to call it an illness we don't see cancer patients having to figure out what to call the effects of their illness or any other reactions to treatment... it is criminal that we are left to define experiment and treat ourselves best we can. Yet here we are and we are surviving...one way or another come hell or high water... that is the attitude you need some days...

Other days you need this attitude...

I am beat for today I am going to cover up my head and stay still ... we learn to become versatile as it is ever changing... when we come out of this we are going to be warriors beyond compare as our skills will be sharp and wisdom grand.

I think the drug effects however anyone wants to classify it are causing this wanting to leave... and I think it will pass... in the mean time make a plan to get away as much as you can and have a break... good plans are a part of this. If you can get away for a wkend by yourself do it... if not there is always the shelter... I don't recommend it. Shelters suck you may be robbed... too just saying it is not the housing of last resort for no reason... I hope you don't have to go to a shelter. If you parents are alive maybe a short visit to them.. mine were long dead by the time I needed a roof.

Odd thing is like other things I know...once you have a plan in place ...you may suddenly not want to use it... often it is the idea you have to stay some place that is the problem. Once you know you have a choice the pressure is off... some what.

Or this may just be me and my pride to some extent... getting down so low you have to show up at your kids door and say help is not something I ever seen in my future...not ever. As a single parent I had been the everything yet there I was completely broken part of me would rather die than to admit to the child in my life whom I had always been strong for or pretended to be when I wasn't... but guess what ... I found such grace and love it was amazing.

I tend to wonder off in my own story sorry about that it is still there traumatic to me now as it was then... I get stuck and can't get out I need to make a plan to deal with this getting stuck.

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btdt

btdt

I wonder if getting stuck is characteristic of a neuro emotion... I wonder.. if long after it is over the experience is so deeping wound into the damaged places of our brains we have to have a plan and do more struggle to be free of them... or to avoid them at all cost... interesting thought.

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btdt

btdt

It's not something we will ever get over btdt - such trauma and can't think of anything that could cause such grief.

I think I avoid my children because I'm not quite sure how I'm supposed to act or what to say?? I'm kind of robotic and normal comversation is difficult. It doesn't come natural anymore. I avoid friends because I am not that person anymore...and I get envious of their normal everyday life. And I know they now avoid me too because I have nothing to talk about...and I used to love a good gossip.

Right now I so wish the topix site were still around if it were I would send you to read Cozza's story. Of being drugged and how it changed her life. I know it is hard to believe and I can't say I am the same as I was either but I have recovered enough that I can see and feel joy in a child and respond. That is the one thing that I have back that is solid they are not my kids but still it is a huge improvement from the mushy brain unreactive subhuman being I was in early withdrawal... shellshocked is how I would describe it in a way I was not there... not myself. I was groping in the dark for any bit of solid ground to stand on and suffering. Bit by agonizing bit it got better. I am sorry it takes so long and the damaged done... I am not going to try to minimize it. Not a chance.

Please give me one tiny bit of trust that just maybe this can heal.

I have not healed completely... I was drugged 18 years part of that time I was out of my head ...having break downs with drug quitting and drug changes.. I went right off the deep end tho I looked normal and walked and talked and did banking and cleaned my house I think.. I did anyway... I also quit my job and became a stripper the same year I was baptized how is that for a switch up in personality. Not only that but I kept going for a years more pills were added lots of time and troubles along the way... i could write a book and since people are interested in the seedy side of life a book about stripping may actually sell. Trust me when I say there were a lot of things I had to overcome a lot of real things that went down that I had to pace my negativity around.

We never completely know another persons entire story I am hoping yours in missing some of the destructive things I did while drugged that I had to overcome but truth be told I can't know for sure I just hope.

Lets just say that right now you can't see it... I get that. I vividly recall resigning myself to living in the state I was in for the rest of my life (which at the time I thought would be short as I was so sick and they could find nothing wrong with me) I did not think I would heal at all... thought I would just suffer long and one day would die of whatever was making me so ill.

I did not happen yet obviously I did not die...

I got better. At first it came in tiny bits here and there. Then it came and went and I was so pissed when it went even though I had been told it would happen just that way. Then it came and stayed a good while maybe a couple of wks then a couple of months.. then out of blue I was side swiped and back to the hell of it again not all the way back but the negativity and gloom hit again along with the tormenting... around 18 months till the 2 year mark it stayed.

Gradually I went thru a lesser hell for a few more years...this was nothing like where you are now it was less severe but gossiping with friends would not have been high on my list still ... it may never be again. Still I was happy to be as well as I was... it can happen.

I was thinking I was going to be good and get on with it when I got in a car accident had surgery both meant drugs and pain and back I came to crap again.

We can't know what will happen in our futures but if things stay stable in your life no acts of God ect... healing will take place it can and does happen.

On the topix thread there were people who had severe personality changes who eventually came back to themselves... some had adverse reactions and quit ct others tapered...

there must be hundreds of people here who have over come this if not here than at that other site we don't name....

Please just a tiny bit of trust ...a tiny bit of hope ... that you too will be one of the ones who gets out of this... I am going to be I don't care how long I was drugged I don't care my age I don't care how fing long it takes I am getting out of this completely out... I set my mind to it years ago and I am going to keep going... because I have seen enough healing to know it is possible... I have seen others heal. I know it happens.

I have talked with people like you before who have healed... people who thought they would never get beyond the stuck place they were... and sometimes they got fed up with me as they were that sure I was wrong...

and they came back and said hey... you were right I am better.

Ok not that many said life was a bowl of cherries maybe those if there were any of them were so busy living a great life they had not time... I kinda doubt it.. I think we heal in increments the tiniest are at the beginning so small they are barely noticed it gets better from there. Seems we get better at healing as we go along...our bodies brains get the nack of it and heal better ... except for the set backs that will come the waves. That too comes and goes.

This is what I know...

When I first meant Alto online she was suffering... could not sleep ect...- we use to be like you are now!! really.

she had a brain to read scientific articles which I could not digest truth be told I had trouble typing my name in when I was first at that site. I was that bad. I could not follow her science still can't and I use to be smart an honour student. Still when she was there in 2008 she was a hurting unit... I know both her and my post there have been deleted which is sad for those here cause if it was there you could go read for yourself...

She says now she is better she has trouble dealing with stress as do I ... but for the most part she is well... I believe her. If she can heal then I can heal. If we can improve you can too!

I may not ever be able to read and understand the science Alto can I grieve that some days and believe me I have had plenty of days to grieve and you will too.. it is part of the process. However this early time is when you need to circle the wagons best you can and leave the biggies for later when you feel a bit better small bites teeny bites. As just now it is easy to get stuck and drug down by it all. I swear to you there was a time I would not watch the news or any violence or read posts that were going south as I learned what that did to me... made me stuck and worse. I accepted that this is how I was for the present and looked for ways to sooth myself. It was bad enough to be ill I decided to seek peace... truly seek it right where I stood with all the infirmities I had. If one little glimmer got thru to me I took it and ran with it. I grabbed ever tiny bit of positive I could I prayed my ass off. I colored and watched cartoons. I hid in bed took warm baths... I I I I am sick of seeing that ....underneath it all is a message that time is your friend... really it will heal you so how will you spend this convalescence? Not much of it is your choice but some small things are. I urge you to seek them out be aware of the little improvements and hold on tight to them.

There is a lot more to be said and I hope to be here to say it.. when your ready. Right now you need tlc from you. I wish you peace

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Ssriwarrior

Ssriwarrior

Wow, I really can't thank you ALL enough for this thread and for this site. What a relief to read these stories and to know it's not all in my mind.

I think the neuro emotions describe my experience to a T. I would add that loneliness, guilt/shame/extreme feelings of worthlessness, and LONGING are big ones for me. Longing, almost kind of like jealousy. Like none of my clothes seem good enough, my shoes aren't right, my yard in my house isn't nice enough, this sense that I am not enough.

When I really stop to contemplate what these drugs do to our humanity, it is truly sickening. To have drs tell you for years that there is something wrong with your brain and you believe it and then to be exposed to the truth that these drugs actually CAUSE dysregulation in the brain, well it's just criminal. I had no idea the withdrawal process would be so challenging and luckily I believe in Karma so I can sleep at night knowing that the CEOs of big pharmaceutical companies will eventually pay for the crime against humanity they have created with their crazy drug mongering system.

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Pitykitty

Pitykitty

Wow, I truly relate to this topic. This entire site has been a wake up call. The apathy + demotiv are still the worse for me but the neuro-emotions (NEs) really drain you. I didnt realize till now what was happening. Drs always told me my MDD was getting worse, etc. Then if u describe the NEs b/c ur honest + trusting...they say ur manic + throw more meds at you. I've been so naive, but im not gonna throw a pity-party (hence my screen name...a reminder to myself not to go there). More inspiration to walk away from ADs + pdocs. To Muddles - dont leave ur family. In future you can tell ur children how u overcame all thats happened + how its made u stronger. Then u will be better able to support them + interact again. My husband (god rest him) and I were not blessed with children plus my family have all passed on. Trust me when I say that when u finally make ur way out of this hell, ur loved ones will be there and u can heal with no regrets. I wish u the best.

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Patoski

Patoski

Wow how could we not get well with a site like this I came of bensos 28 years ago and I went through all this Stuff and recovered from 20 years of addiction and I'm still with the wife I was going to leave through negative neuro I motion. I'm now withdrawing from doxepin which I have been on for 40 years I had to come off because I now have glaucoma and they are not compatible with my eye drops I came off very quickly out of nesseitty I've been off 6 months now and it's not been easy but I've been here before so I know for a fact it will definitely get better and that takes out most of the fear for me. A knew neuro I'm motion I am experiencing is one of overwhelming love.yes I really mean it I feel like i could fall in love with a lamp post at the moment I don't suppose the wife will mind long as I stick to lamppost hang in there everyone we will get well hope this post will help someone it's helped me xxx

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ang

ang

Yes, it made me realize how much shame has shaped my inner life and feelings about myself.

I agree, these intense feelings triggered by neuro-emotion might illuminate what always was there, the most hidden vulnerability, the deepest fear. A person has to be very strong to cope with this and not get overwhelmed.

I was overwhelmed too many times with waves of hatred and fear. Which are in a sense the same. But I surely have not been strong enough to keep kyself from acting upon it. I told already in another thread about my stupid actions against my former bully which I had not seen for about 20 years. And that this brought me on the verge of juridical prosecution and going to jail and thereby the complete loss of any chance to lead a normal life again. I hate to say that I must be grateful to the bullyguy for offering me the chance to avoid prosecution because I had no single argument to defend myself. No judge will take the excuse "it was not me but the meds I swallowed more than 3 years ago"... I feel utterly depressed now because all this while my physical WD symptoms are better than before... but somehow I always succeed to create more drama as if some part of me does not want to heal. I try to find out what is really going on here.

Well said, I now realise that I was worse on the medications.... Early times for me, only 4 months. but the guilt seems overwhelming.

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Wildflower0214

Wildflower0214

For quite a while in withdrawal, neuro-emotion led me to memories where I embarrassed myself, made a fool or myself, or was rejected. I couldn't shake them, I was reliving them intensely over and over.

The feeling of shame and worthlessness was awful. I had to make a determined effort, which wasn't always successful, to distract myself from these memories. I kept reminding myself to forgive myself for my mistakes.

Then reliving these memories went away. I'm not having this problem anymore (I hope).

I presume that some area of my brain was being stimulated by dysregulated neuro-hormones, and now it's recovered.

This subject came up in a group of people in benzo w/d and it turned out a lot of us shared this experience. And something else, a sort of sense that our lives had been futile, a sort of obsessive feeling of worthlessness and despair and grief, something we were unable to shake. It's very difficult to describe but everyone who had experienced it recognized it immediately. I decided it needs to have a name--like akathisia has a name--so I call it "dystalgia" because one person said it was like evil nostalgia.

I don't know if this is as intense with AD withdrawal. Or if maybe it's one of those kind of universal symptoms like akathisia that you can get with a variety of psych meds.

I haven't had it for a while, but it does tend to come back when I'm more actively cutting doses and in w/d.

I have been having this big time....I don't know why but I don't feel it is the finishing of the Imipramine taper. I think it's Celexa....then again could very well be both.

Alto glad your stopped

I have this. It's hideous. It's like every painful memory from 30 years of living just keeps playing over and over. :-/

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ikam

ikam

I wonder if my depressed mood may be a neuro-emotion? It hits me so badly in the morning...it includes relieving memories of mistakes I made all over again. If I don't have a memory, somehow my mind gets obsessed to find one and sometimes it is really strange. I get this "aha" effect and drown in my misery...then I get compulsive suicidal thoughts...just thoughts, but so vivid...

When I get distracted, after getting up from bed, I shake it off and feel as if a different self...

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ikam

ikam

Wow! This is all so familiar. Taking paxil + its w/d gave me approx a dozen OCD habits for some years. I have maybe 2 or 3 left I can deal with. Zoloft is my recent horror. I completed taper a few months ago, but while I was on it and still...I cant get rid of the rumination. Thats what the pdoc calls it - says its part of my MDD. Bull! I've had occasional terrors + flashbacks during my life, but this never occurred until i'd been on the zoloft a few months. Once again, he has no clue im done pmeds. This is what u folks are describing as the unwanted memories & reliving bad experiences from the past. Some are huge, others tiny + stupid. Some are recent, others go back to kindergarden. Like wtf?! It pops up randomly (for me at any time of day) and I become engrossed from an hour to 2 days. I cannot consciously shake it + doesnt matter if im alone or with people. If I had to vote its not the worst symptom in this huge journey. Its just depressing, puzzling, & a waste of time. I hope it wont stick for long...for any of us.

It seems that "changing the channel" helps me sometimes.

The worst are mornings. I wake up, and then my mind "starts searching" until it finds some disturbing memory, thought...it may also be a sucidal compulssion...

I don't understand why I sit with it, instead of going out, changing the channel...

Yes, it is such a waste of time...

And not logical at all...

It has taken me almost half a day today, I am a bit better at present...

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Pitykitty

Pitykitty

Thats good Ikam. I like what u said about "changing the channel". That works once in a while. I hope the 2nd half of ur day goes well. Take care of yourself. I sorta feel its a good thing that we recognized this is happening. Its important to be self-aware in a positive way. We are all truly working hard..

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ikam

ikam

Thats good Ikam. I like what u said about "changing the channel". That works once in a while. I hope the 2nd half of ur day goes well. Take care of yourself. I sorta feel its a good thing that we recognized this is happening. Its important to be self-aware in a positive way. We are all truly working hard..

It has taken me much longer today. I don't understant why I have had such difficulties in leaving my flat and going out...

There are moments when I feel like giving up...disbeliving that I will ever feel better. I never felt like this before, never had symptoms I cannot simply control, that I have to accept and patiently wait...i get over-anxious...

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MissSerene

MissSerene

Ikam: Hope your day has been a little better today. I like reading about neuro-emotion...I'm in a rough patch, mood-wise, right now and am feeling discouraged and wondering if I will ever feel happy and spontaneous and hopeful again. Some days, I feel flat. Other days, intense neuro-emotions kick in. Many days now, I feel old and worn out, like a car with too many miles on it! But hanging on today. Was just at grocery store and instead of buying a box of Twinkies for comfort, I got some marshmallows to put on my low-fat cocoa. The best I can do today....LOL.

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ikam

ikam

Ikam: Hope your day has been a little better today. I like reading about neuro-emotion...I'm in a rough patch, mood-wise, right now and am feeling discouraged and wondering if I will ever feel happy and spontaneous and hopeful again. Some days, I feel flat. Other days, intense neuro-emotions kick in. Many days now, I feel old and worn out, like a car with too many miles on it! But hanging on today. Was just at grocery store and instead of buying a box of Twinkies for comfort, I got some marshmallows to put on my low-fat cocoa. The best I can do today....LOL.

Thank you for asking. Hope you have a good day today

I am better today. I spoke with out mods yesterday, I understand more and feel less anxious...