Just out of curiousity, are we now calling the Titans cheap or overspenders?

Gonna go with incompetent.

TitanJeff said:

When Samuel was given as a specific example, I mentioned that Harper had just been signed the previous year and that the Titans would be Raider-stupid to bench or cut him. The response was that the Titans should not have signed Harper and waited for the shot at Samuel the next season. Really?

Seriously. Samuel was franchised and the incentives to not be franchised again the next season were very very simple to meet. The only way he wouldn't meet them would've been injury.

So it should've been worth considering, do we spend money and lock up cap space on a #2 cb now, or do we wait and spend money and lock up cap space on a top5 cb next season?

Seriously. Samuel was franchised and the incentives to not be franchised again the next season were very very simple to meet. The only way he wouldn't meet them would've been injury.

So it should've been worth considering, do we spend money and lock up cap space on a #2 cb now, or do we wait and spend money and lock up cap space on a top5 cb next season?

That's a great plan if the Titans were the only team interested which they would not have been.

Meanwhile, you have Renaldo Hill your starter in '07 and beyond if the Titans can't outbid the league for Samuel. If you think Harper was bad last season, Hill was worse and did nothing in run support.

What I wonder here is how you know they don't? Do you honestly think they see a player who "fits" their system and don't inquire?

What I assume happens is that any player is evaluated long before they hit the market so the Titans know whether or not they feel it's a possibility in February while they are negotiating with their own soon-to-be free agents. I also think agents/teams talk long before March 5 and the Titans get a pretty good idea of what kind of contract other teams are willing to offer.

Maybe you feel the Titans just don't value these players as much as they should but I bet they inquire about any top free agent they feel is a good fit

I know they don't do it the same way you know they do, as you point out, assume. We do know they brought in journeyman Babin, some consider a bust and signed a P/K and Pago Tatofu (?sp).

TitanJeff said:

Sure, any team can sign a Peppers and then replace eight depth guys but you still must have a 52-man roster. What happens is you fill those holes with rookies or other team's cuts. What you risk is the same thing which happened to the Titans in 2005 when many of their top players were hurt. They ended up having to play scrubs because their cap was so tight paying for the "first tier", they could not bring in quality depth.

Bad example TJ. My point is bringing in one upper level player won't break the bank. And that year was dead cap space after the purge for multiple players. Not the same in the least. I'd like to know how much collective cap space we lose each year by guys we wind up cutting within a very short time frame.

Notice that you have five players making over $5 mil. You have 15 or so in the $2-$5 mil range. Then you have 11 who make $1-$2 mil with the remaining 26 making less that $1 mil. I'm guessing that is the distribution ratio for most teams. Also notice that though those making less than $1 mil are usually depth player, many are starters.

Also notice the total spending. If you want to call Bud cheap, then you need to call the Pats, Cowboys, Eagles and Colts cheaper.

Interesting data- thanks for the link. I wouldn't not call the Pats, Cowboys, Eagles and Colts "cheaper", I would say that they manage their cap better. They are running more successful seasons beneath what we've spent. And isn't the point of this thread to assess the quality and performance of our front office? Those organizations have also been active early in FA the past few years and still are below us in cap space? You mean what they did DIDN'T BLOW UP the cap as you have suggested would certainly happen?

Come on TJ. One, or two FA's or trades won't break the bank when the need arises.

TitanJeff said:

I fail to see where those areas of improvement come from in this free agent class. Peppers wasn't going to come here. Dansby isn't as good as our current MLB, IMO. Robinson hasn't done anything lately.

I don't see much out there worth investing a lot in. I think the Titans will try to shop a few players or try to bring in a RFA before the dust settles. I can see the Titans drafting a DE in the first to fill that hole but going in to the season with Hood/Mouton as your only options at #2 CB spook me and I think moves will be made to prevent that from happening.

We're still in March. There's a lot of things which can change over the next few months.

Compliments to you on a series of excellent, well written posts TJ. I am flying in between cases right now so I can't digest each of them as thoroughly as I'd like. But I am stalwart in the idea that the Titans can be better at the staffing our personnel by not being so reticent to engage early in the FA/trade market when opportunities arise. It can be done in a budget neutral fashion.

I hope you are right about the CB staffing. I think we missed a golden opportunity with Cro and to a lesser degree Bodden.

I know they don't do it the same way you know they do, as you point out, assume. We do know they brought in journeyman Babin, some consider a bust and signed a P/K and Pago Tatofu (?sp).

I would think it's common sense they get information on any player they think can help them win. Why wouldn't they? They parade guys in just to update their files. Just because they won't be able to draft Suh means they don't have any info on the guy? Give them a little credit.

Bad example TJ. My point is bringing in one upper level player won't break the bank. And that year was dead cap space after the purge for multiple players. Not the same in the least. I'd like to know how much collective cap space we lose each year by guys we wind up cutting within a very short time frame.

Which upper-level player you think the Titans missed out on? That's the only way to know whether or not the Titans made the right move on any given player. The devil is in the details.

I used Peppers because he'll cost the Bears $13.3 mil, on average, for the next six season. He's guaranteed $40 mil in the first three. You don't think that impacts the depth of the other positions on the roster in 2011 and beyond? You don't think they'll have to let go of a few players they'd prefer to keep at some point?

If the Titans had done that, we'd been happy campers until he started to decline by 2012 and the team had to give up other key players to offset the cap hit.

Remember complaining that the Titans lost Kearse, Rolle and Mason? Hello.

I wouldn't not call the Pats, Cowboys, Eagles and Colts "cheaper", I would say that they manage their cap better.

Would you say the Titans were in the best position in the AFC to go to a Super Bowl in 2008? The front office did about as good a job as could be done putting the players on the field to win. They can't go out there and keep the players from turning over the football.

Last season, there were issues, IMO. But we can't know how much of that is Fisher saying he's got all he needs at CB and P/K return or that the front office didn't pony up for better players. Beyond that, you have to go back to Reese and the purge years to see signs of mismanagement, IMO.

BTW, trading for Carter and keeping all those high-priced vets around as long as the Titans did didn't put a Lombardi in Baptist Sports Park either. If it had worked, Reese would be a visionary and still the Titans GM. It didn't so he was a poor decision-maker and eventually fired. Isn't that how it works?

Those organizations have also been active early in FA the past few years and still are below us in cap space? You mean what they did DIDN'T BLOW UP the cap as you have suggested would certainly happen?

The Pats and Colts haven't brought in anyone close to a first-tier player. The Cowboys and Eagles have but it's not gotten them a ring.

If our defense is top10, or if we win some playoff games, make a superbowl, or actually win won...

then straight up, I will be wrong in my opinions about our defense. And it will be fair for me to admit I was wrong about needing upgrades.

But if you think I'm not going to celebrate victories, you are crazier than I thought.

And my original point is this... if you are 100% defending our strategy and you are against signing free agents that are "expensive" then you can't really complain if our defense isn't good next year, because you wouldn't recommend doing anything different.

Well, if you are 100% attacking our strategy, you are all for signing one or two expensive free agents in exchange for the quality depth we have, and you can't celebrate when it works, as it has many seasons for us.

No, that's nonsense, and likewise, you are crazy if you think I wouldn't complain about certain players when necessary.

I'm not saying I never have beef with what the FO does or doesn't do. I have, however, learned to take a wait and see approach when it comes to the team they inevitably field. So many armchair general managers (me included) want this player for their team or that player for their team. The fact of the matter is, the FO has done a pretty good job of supplying usable talent. I know some of you think we can't get over the hump, win in the playoffs without some rare talent. I think it's nonsense. I think it's simply a matter of time. Like I said earlier in this thread, it took Polian six seasons with the Colts before they had won a playoff game.

I would be as excited as any of you if we were making huge splashes in free agency every year, or even one year. It's gratifying now. Signing "known" commodities easily restores hope of a Superbowl season. You look at the players body of work, and you instantly start translating past production to your team. Unfortunately, it doesn't usually work out that way. The good news is that it's a two way street. Vanden Bosch, for example. This team works the spectrum opposite of the Joneses and Snyders. It has worked, and I'm at peace with it.

Some posters/fans, TitanJeff, Psychop1, Gunny, are saying it NEVER makes sense to sign a tier 1 (first,second day expensive signing).

Other posters/fans, Riverman and I, are saying don't automatically exclude a high dollar top tier free agent SOLELY because of contract expense.

At least, that's my understanding from this 35 page thread.

Decent enough assessment. However, I believe when the Titans' FO thinks there is a player available that they really like, need, and believe will play up to the contract said player will receive no matter what "tier" you would put them on, that player will garner plenty of interest from the Titans. Therefore, I don't believe they automatically exclude players just because of their cost. I think many factors are involved when they exclude a player.

Ummm- yeah he was considered the most clutch kicker in the game at the time he was signed. And the point was never who was better- Bironas vs. Vinatieri. The point was that the Colts (a "successful" team) won a SB after signing him.

Again- the point was that a "successful" team got involved early in FA and won a SB after that with that FA. Actually- they won two.

OK- so what keeps the Titans from signing them? And who has been brought in for a look the last few years you would consider "first tier"?

Carter, Thornton, Givens, Mawae, Hope, and Scott all had a body of work preceding them that suggests they were first tier. I could go on, but I probably went too far back with Carter. Thank God we signed him!

This discussion reminds me of our company. We have a product that comes in a 1lb bag. I get calls every once in a while from someone screaming at me saying we should make a 1/2lb bag. "You don't know what you're doing".. "If you do this you'll double your sales!" and so on.. Sounds like a great idea until they learn a few behind the scenes details - one simple example; like it or not a 1/2 bag will still cost them the exact same amount to buy as a 1lb bag. Logistics.
All of us fancy ourselves as football geniuses, armchair GMs, etc. but I just suspect there may be a few things going on behind the scenes of running a professional football team that we are not privy to..

Chris Hope, David Thornton, Kerry Collins, Jake Scott, Justin Gage, Nick Harper, Tony Brown and KVB are also among those the Titans have signed. It's like the draft. Not every player pans out.

And also like the draft, the more you have invested in a player who doesn't pan out, the more problems it creates. See "Jones, Pacman".

What MO? That they are not bringing in Peppers, Robinson or Dansby? That they didn't sign Haynesworth or Housh last season?

I can't see how anyone can just generalize the Titans need to sign any big contract free agent without looking at each player/deal specifically.

Do you sign any of those I've mentioned above to the deals they received?

When Samuel was given as a specific example, I mentioned that Harper had just been signed the previous year and that the Titans would be Raider-stupid to bench or cut him. The response was that the Titans should not have signed Harper and waited for the shot at Samuel the next season. Really?

Let's review the choices. The Titans either do the Cro deal, match the Falcons for Robinson or be willing to pay much more than the Pats did for Bodden who upgrades the position. Those are your options.

Some like the Cro deal. I don't. I think the guy has baggage and doesn't tackle. I also think he'll end up costing the Jets a second-rounder and will be a free agent at the end of the 2010 season unless they pay him, at least, what Robinson got.

I discuss Bodden in another response. I think it takes a boatload more of money to sign him than he settled for with New England.

I fail to see where those areas of improvement come from in this free agent class. Peppers wasn't going to come here. Dansby isn't as good as our current MLB, IMO. Robinson hasn't done anything lately.

I don't see much out there worth investing a lot in. I think the Titans will try to shop a few players or try to bring in a RFA before the dust settles. I can see the Titans drafting a DE in the first to fill that hole but going in to the season with Hood/Mouton as your only options at #2 CB spook me and I think moves will be made to prevent that from happening.

We're still in March. There's a lot of things which can change over the next few months.

Our MO is to sit and wait until the crazy buys are over.

I have no issue with it when it comes to not overpaying for a player. Albert wasn't worth that money and Peppers and Dansby were both ridiculous buys which won't return the investment.

Samuel and Clements both went for crazy money and weren't worth the investment.

Kampman was a bargain for the Jags. Exactly the kind of deal we normally go for and an ideal.

I'm baffled why we didn't get involved.Ditto for Dunta Robinson. You state he hasn't done anything lately but he was out for a long time.

He went to the Falcons as a 2nd tier free agent without breaking the bank.

With no 2nd round pick how do you not take a look.

Unless we get a DE,LB or a RB history shows that our 1st round pick wont make a difference this year.

We're basically looking at the same D we had last year and it's a concern.

Why advertise on goTitans.com?

With 3500+ members and over 1 million posts, goTitans.com is the place for Tennessee Titans fans to talk Titans. Have those diehard fans see your logo scroll across the bottom of every page of the site linked to your website by becoming a sponsor. Save 50% off with our introductory offer between now and August 1. Click here for the details.

The Tip Jar

For those of you interested in helping the cause, we offer The Tip Jar. For $2 a month, you can become a subscriber and enjoy goTitans.com without ads.