I would, with great
pleasure, like to inform you that The Egyptian Rep. in the UN Minorities
Conference 2005 was "flattened" in Geneva yesterday 31/5/05.

I am glad to say 4 Copts
were present including myself, all made 10 min. interventions each,
all statements were prepared in advance to give the Egyptian
government chance to respond, all very strong statements. Egyptian Government
Representative response was poor, a long history lesson and that we are not
Minority "which is wrong, the Russian Member replied to by saying any
numerical Minority group which has grievances, which they believe is due
to being Minority group, should be treated as such", also in reply to
Egyptian Government Representative suggesting discussing Coptic problem through
the "right channels and venues" meaning Egypt, the Chairman replied
to him that "here is the right channel and venue, i.e
the UN"

The reply to the
Egyptian government response was delegated to me on behalf of the all 4 of us,
and God helped me to literally flatted the Egyptian Government Representative
and to proof he is wrong or lying, his response to my reply was very poor,
concentrating on no harm would happen to Mamdouh or
Lydia when they go back to Egypt, Mamdouh the
president of Al-Kalema Centre is in and out of Egypt
all the time with out harassing. As to the personal status law and the Islamic
Jurisprudence interpretations he replioed that
he "IS NOT SPECIALISED IN THE SUBJECT" therefore he cannot
answer (why was he there then), and El-Kosheh was
started between merchants.....and did not reply to other subjects...very poor
response, the man was pleading with Mamdouh to stop
me from respoding to him before I replied but we did,
thank God we were given the chance.

Here is the transcript
of my two statement

Regards

IbrahimHabib

The statement /
intervention to WGM 2005

Freedom of Religion

My name is HabibIbrahim,
Member of Al-Kalema centre for Human Rights, Cairo.

While the Egyptian constitution claims to provide for freedom of
religion in articles 40 and 46, yet Article 2 stipulates that Islam is the
religion of the State and Sharia is the primary
source of legislation, thus, rendering Articles 40 and 46 subordinate to
Islamic Sharia law, subsequently non-Muslims are
treated as second class citizens. The state duty is to defend its citizenís
rights not citizens good. For the State to
assume any moral or religious stand based on the majorityís belief would
immediately encroach on minorities rights and casts great doubt on the state as
neutral body.

While the Egyptian government has a prescribed procedure and official
recognition under the Egyptian law for a non-Muslim to convert to Islam under
Islamic Sharia Law, there is no similar process for
the reverse i. e for a Muslim to become non-Muslim,
which is not permitted under Islam, which contravenes the Freedom of Belief
according to Article 18. Universal Declaration of Human Rights; Everyone has
the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes
freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in
community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or
belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance. †The lack of conversion procedure from Islam
creates endless difficulties and hardship for Muslim converts.

Also there is restriction on building places of worship for non-Muslims,
permissions to build new churches are restricted and obtained if any with great
difficulties, for example in Manqateen village, Samalout district there are 5000 Christians live with out
church so far, the local people started to build their church in 1978 when
Islamic fundamentalists attacked the church under construction, the police then
stopped the building till now for security reasons. Local Christians have to
conduct their weddings and funeral services in the village streets with no
dignity.† Photographs of the desecrated
church and the street weddings are provided.

There are cases of forced conversion of underage Christian girls where
police side with the kidnapper and does not hand back the minor to her family,
under Egyptian law a female canít marry without her family consent under the
age of 21.

†

The Copts are being excluded and marginalised from participation in the
Egyptian public life, culture, Media, high government offices, (police, army,
Governors of Counties, universities, or even heads of local districts,
judiciary, diplomatic mission 1%).

Egyptian police does not protect Christians if they are killed by muslims, famous for it, for example is El-Kosheh 2000 when 21 innocent Christians were hunted down
and killed in their homes or fields, not a single person was convicted other
than SorialGaedIshaak, a Christian†
imprisoned for 3 years for insulting Islam.

I would like to recommend the following:

1.The
Egyptian government should extend the freedom of conversion procedure to cover
conversion from any religion including Islam.

2.The
Egyptian Police should not be involved in the conversion process, but rather a
civil religious committee from both sides.

3.Removal
of all indication to one‚Äôs religion from the
Identity cards and the official papers.

4.To
change second article of the Egyptian constitution to provide equality to all
Egyptian citizens.

I would
like to avoid using semantics or give long history lesson like my friend the
Egyptian Government Rep did, as this wastes time and deviates from the main
issues.

I was a
little worried regarding some veiled threat when he levelled a charge of
defaming Islam, I would like to say, categorically that non of us intended to
or indeed did defame Islam. We believe in total respect to every ones religion.
I am a bit worried about Mamdouh and Lydia when they go back to Egypt, just in
case the Egyptian authorities charge them for defaming Islam or imprison them.
I would like to invoke the protection rights of the Human Rights worker to be
used to protect them to ensure their safety.

†Getting to the points, I would like be very
specific. I would like to ask my friend Egyptian Government Rep, is there
specific procedure to convert from Islam which is recognised and legally
binding in Egypt?
Also In case of a Christian wife embraces Islam, what happen to her husband?
Does not he get asked either to accept and embrace Islam or get divorced
regardless of sequences to the family and the children? Is not that true that a
Muslim woman can not marry a Christian man?†
Even if that not written in Law books but the judges rule by Islamic
jurisprudence books (in accordance with Egyptian constitution article2) this is
taught in Law Schools and I have got examples here from Law Books and court
cases for inspection if you would like to.

Then
regards the church buildings, according to the British House of Commons debate
on the Copts 14 June 2000, the total number of churches is about 2400 serving 10,000,000 †to ď
15,000,000, a church per 6200 while mosques are over 82,000 for a population of
about 60,000,000 a mosque per 750 approx. (so how come 1500 permits have been
given as Egyptian Government Rep claims).

A stark
example of obstruction to church building is Manqateen
church where the application was made in 1977, I have got photographs of the
church and how people conduct the prayers on the dead and the weddings in the
streets where there is no dignity what so ever.

Regarding
the protection of Christians who were killed in sectarian strife, the
government is totally biased in this case because the police does not give
protection, a stark example is the massacre of El-Kosheh
2000 when 21 innocent Christians were massacred, not a single person was
condemned for the killing, the court decision was challenged twice to the
higher level and the perpetrators were exonerated. The blood of twnty one Christians cries for justice, there are case of Elzawia† ElHamara, Sanaboo, Elzawia† ElHamara† 22,Sanaboo 13, Tema
12,† AbuKorkas
13 not a single perpetrator of Islamic fundamentalists was caught and put in
prison, there is degree of impunity, I repeat a degree of impunity applied by
the government, this has been too obvious and has been going on for over twenty
years or 25 years , Muslims fundamentalist when they attack Christians they
know they will not go to prison.

As
regards to the public life, there are 26 governorates with 26 governors in
Egypt, not a single Christians also their secretaries all Muslims, all head of
police their deputies all Muslims all colleges dean a bout 500 all Muslims,
head of universities all Muslims, I know there are two ministers who are
Christians then you could come and tell us there are two Christian ministers ok
there are 3 or 4 ambassadors ok I accept, but this does not represent the
population ratio, and I would say that the Christians are not less educated
than any body else they are like any body else and educated like everybody
else.

Without
any history lessons and without any semantics to diffuse the issue, we just
need justice and equality applied to all Muslims and Christians a like in
Egypt, I gave you exact numbers and examples and I would like to see what is
you answer to that, I have got supportive documents to support my case and
thank you for listening, thanks you Mr Chairman and thanks to every one.