I recall we have discussed this before but I think it was first called F1 in1948.The World championship started in 1950 but included Indy 500 which was not for F1.No one ever scored a point at Indy and F1 so can be ignored for historical purposes? before 1948 was known as the Grand Prix Formula.

As has been stated in the previous threads it was simply the international formula introduced in 1948 along with a formula for a secondary category of cars and the two formulae were variously referred to as Formula 1 and Formula 2, Formula I and Formula II, or Formula A and Formula B - sometimes in the same official document, possibly even in official documents. It didn't matter what they were called - there were two formulae was all that mattered. When the British 500cc formula was given international status in 1950 it was always Formula 3 or Formula III and never Formula C so you could say that the terms Formula A and Formula B were no longer used from then. Whether a typist or writer used the "Arabic" number Formula 1 or the "Roman" numbered Formula I depended on the preference of the individual.

When the World Drivers' Championship was set up, the CSI included Indianapolis as it was the premier race in the USA and justified the World title. Although the organisers made an attempt to run the race for Formula 1 cars, the lobbying of the owners of 3-litre cars meant this didn't happen. Drivers did score points in the Championship, but as no Indianapolis drivers finished in points scoring positions in European GPs and no GP driver, except Ascari, drove at Indianapolis, many statistics compilers ignore Indianapolis.

To add to that. AFAIK the first 'Grand Prix' was Le Mans 1906. I think this was also when the 'formula' concept was introduced, regulated engine size and minimum car weight. The first purpose built Grand Prix track was Brooklands 1907.Set rules / formulae for the car types varied over the decades I believe.1948 saw multiple grand prix formulae introduced, more specifically a secondary formula B, which gave rise to the labelling as A and B. Or 1 and 2 as already said.

But as too clearly said the drivers championship started in 1950 and so the first formula 1 world championship race was indeed the silverstone grand prix that year.

As also said there is some threads about this done already.

Edit - I suppose if we consider formula 1 to be the first one and only formula before a formula B was brought in, maybe 1906 was it? But not called A or 1 of course until the B came in

Re-reading the first post, I don't think the poster was asking about the origin of Formula 1 but was asking about the usage of the term "Formula 1".

Race organisers didn't need to include "Formula 1" in their publicity posters or, for that matter, on their programme covers. They were in fact saying "Come and see the Grand Prix" and John Q Public wasn't really concerned what formula the cars conformed to. Was the crowd any smaller at Monaco in 1952 when the race was run for sports cars?

As time went on people probably came more aware that there were different categories of car. The Race of Champions poster shows this. The selling point was "The first Formula 1 race of the season" - they were telling the racing fans they had an opportunity to see the same cars as ran in the Grand Prix and that the feature race was not Formula 2, Formula 3, Sports cars or Touring Cars which would be other meetings at Brands hatch. Similarly at Reims, in some years the main race was the 12 hour sports car race and in years when the French GP (GP de l'ACF) was run at Rouen there would be a race at Reims, sometimes titled a "GP de France" which sometimes was for Formula 2; so in 1960 they wanted to subtly emphasise that this year it was 'the real thing', i.e. Formula 1 cars.

I do, however, find it surprising that the Albi GP poster doesn't emphasise that Formula 1 cars (BRM, Ferrari etc) would be there as that year as all the Championship GPs were for F2 cars it was a rare opportunity to see the faster cars.

I do, however, find it surprising that the Albi GP poster doesn't emphasise that Formula 1 cars (BRM, Ferrari etc) would be there as that year as all the Championship GPs were for F2 cars it was a rare opportunity to see the faster cars.

You might want to check the date on that Albi poster, Duncan ...

Pre-1948, it was just 'the Formula', 'the Grand Prix Formula', 'the International Formula' or 'Formule Internationale'. Everybody knew what that meant. It only became necessary to assign numbers (or letters, depending on how individual journalists decided to do it) after the FIA created what was referred to in reports at the time simply as 'a second International Formula'. Unfortunately, in October 1947, nobody at the CSI saw the necessity to set down on paper an exact name for them. If they'd had the wit to do that, it would have saved a hell of a lot of hassle ...

I'm puzzled by the 'First Formula 1 Race of 1965' claim on the Race of Champions poster. Did they genuinely not realise there had already been a race, or were they being insular and implying that anything that happened outside the UK was irrelevant?

The 'voiturette' or 'light car' races were not run to an official CSI formula: individual organisers could choose to run races with a limit of 1500cc. But they could equally have picked 1100cc, 2000cc or any other limit they chose. 1500cc races were encouraged - but not officially endorsed as a separate class - by the CSI.

That holds true until 1938, when 1500cc cars were incorporated within the framework of the new International Formula and were (theoretically) able to compete on an equal basis, since they were allowed to weigh less than larger-engined cars. However, they also had to comply with the same bodywork regulations, which put them at something of a disadvantage. 1500cc races were still run and the few 1500cc cars created during that period - Alfetta, ERA E, MB W165, Maserati 4CL - all complied to those bodywork rules. In fact they could - and probably would - have built smaller, lighter, faster cars, had those rules not been place. The pre-war Austins and post-war Cisitalia D46 are both ample proof of that.

All of the foregoing begs the question how the hell did Bernie managed to copyright the terms?

A good question, but has anyone ever bothered to contest the copyright? For example, if I came across a ludicrously large sum of money, and decided to promote a race to be run to Formula One, I imagine Bernie or his lawyers would descend rapidly. (I also imagine there'd be no entrants from the regular Effone teams, since they're contracted, but that's bye-the bye.)I think one could reasonably argue that since the rules of international sports, like Golf, Rugby Football, Association Football, Cricket, etc., etc., are published by their governing bodies for all to use, then Motor Racing is really no different, and that "Formula One" is really not a "copyrightable" term.

Can someone who knows please nail this one. According to this post on a previous thread his application to trade mark as opposed to copyright the terms 'Formula 1' etc was rejected. But things may have changed since.

I believe it is the words "Formula One World Championship" that Bernie owns the rights to, and it was known as the "World Championship for Drivers" before that.

My understanding is that Italy's rep to the CSI came up with the formula in 1947. They were first known as "Formula A" and "Formula B", but I'm not sure when the terms were changed to numerals, but it wasn't long after the rules were first published.

Most fans would not have known what a "Formula One" or "Formula Two" car was back then, they were generally known as "Grand Prix" cars. The tracks ran the show back then and usually just billed their race as a "Grand Prix" with note of which formula rules would be used. I don't believe Formula One was used much in describing the races until after Bernie took control in 1981, they were still generally referred to as "Grand Prix" races and the championship referred to as the "World driving championship" .

I believe it is the words "Formula One World Championship" that Bernie owns the rights to, and it was known as the "World Championship for Drivers" before that.

My understanding is that Italy's rep to the CSI came up with the formula in 1947. They were first known as "Formula A" and "Formula B", but I'm not sure when the terms were changed to numerals, but it wasn't long after the rules were first published.

Most fans would not have known what a "Formula One" or "Formula Two" car was back then, they were generally known as "Grand Prix" cars. The tracks ran the show back then and usually just billed their race as a "Grand Prix" with note of which formula rules would be used. I don't believe Formula One was used much in describing the races until after Bernie took control in 1981, they were still generally referred to as "Grand Prix" races and the championship referred to as the "World driving championship" .

Sounds about right.

I imagine the Formula one label started being used when marketing and publicity of Grands Prix became more centralised, and the championship series as a whole became a selling point. One could I suppose check posters of every year to find the first formula mention...

A few days ago I was watching a TV quiz show in which they were asking questions about Monaco. One was 'in which decade was the first Formula 1 Grand Prix?' '1950s', said the contestant, as did I. 'Wrong', they said, 'the first one was in 1929'. Collapse of stout party...

A few days ago I was watching a TV quiz show in which they were asking questions about Monaco. One was 'in which decade was the first Formula 1 Grand Prix?' '1950s', said the contestant, as did I. 'Wrong', they said, 'the first one was in 1929'. Collapse of stout party...

I know of at least one book (by a respected author - not a TNFer) which asserts that the pre-war Grand Prix Formula was called Formula A ...

It was Richard Osman and he said the decade was the 1920s, the race being in 1929.

Correct.Question here is what was the question F1 started in 1948.World Drivers'championship in 1950.Sky F1 is showing old USA F1 races at Detroit & Dallas.Unfotunately these were not called the USGP at the time.In 1982 there were 3 WCF1 races in the USA at Long Beach ,Las Vegas & Detroit.

It was Richard Osman and he said the decade was the 1920s, the race being in 1929.

He has previously set questions that referred to Alberto Ascari as a double F1 world champion. If I had been a contestant on the show, I genuinely wouldn't have known what answer to give for the Monaco question, a problem that often happens when you know more about the subject than the question setter.

He has previously set questions that referred to Alberto Ascari as a double F1 world champion. If I had been a contestant on the show, I genuinely wouldn't have known what answer to give for the Monaco question, a problem that often happens when you know more about the subject than the question setter.

If there's any form of rigour on the show then there should be a mechanism by which you can challenge something if you genuinely believe they are wrong. That was certainly the case on Fifteen to One, since I saw it done myself when I competed on it. Recording was stopped, checks were made and the answer given was deemed to be correct. The whole sequence was then re-shot.

However, I'm not sure Pointless (was there ever a more appropriate title?) has the intellectual standards of Fifteen to One ... it is after all the same basic formula as Family Fortunes, which is hardly University Challenge, is it?

He has previously set questions that referred to Alberto Ascari as a double F1 world champion. If I had been a contestant on the show, I genuinely wouldn't have known what answer to give for the Monaco question, a problem that often happens when you know more about the subject than the question setter.

AP are reporting that the last driver to win 9 consecutive Formula One races was Ascari. Methinks Vettel may be the first.

Eight (so far) Michael. Although a ninth looks entirely feasible. And I have to say he is beginning to look like he may turn out better than that other German bloke ... I just wish he'd learn to celebrate a little more genuinely.

the following is what I personally subscribe to, keeping in mind that very few "official" documents are readily available among insufficient, potentially missing or other information just not surviving into present day. For example, the official government registration form or confirmation document granting the F.I.A. non-profit status (marking its birth), would be a great historic piece of paper to see if the FIA would see fit to establish a real digital archive beyond basic race and championship statistics, containing historically important documents, technical memorandums and (hopefully) missing or incomplete race event information.

Assessment of the general timeline and specific dates of events (if available), leading to the inception of the specific terms or words: F.I.A. - CSI (Commission Sportive Internationale), Formula A (B), Formula One

1946
Pre-war Formula specs (used until 1939 and still in effect) were annulled on February 28, 1946 at the first postwar AIACR meeting.
Formula Libre in effect, 20 races (seven major events, no Grandes Épreuves).
Cars from the 1939 3-liter supercharged era and voiturette formula.
FIA and CSI instituted at the end of 1946.
CSI introduced Formula A specs for Grand Prix cars to be officially in effect by 1948 (but already applied by 1947).

1950 (Formula One)
Formula specs as from 1947 to 1949.
Formula A' officially renamed ' Formula 1'.
FIA established and implements the World Championship of drivers.

synopsis:
1904-1946: AIACR
1946-Present: FIA /CSI formation, Formula A (B) (definition)
1947: Formula A cars (first appearance)
1948: Formula A regulations in effect
1949: Formula A regulations in effect
1950: Formula A officially renamed to Formula One, start of Drivers World Championship (first official use of the term "Formula One")

In my own daydreams, I like to think that there might be still a chance for a few odd documents to have survived the war, flood, fire or general neglect in various attics, cellars or other dark and dusty corners, from among local promoters, car clubs, event sponsors... maybe even from a 1934 hot dog & beer vendor... lol (I could use a few more circuit maps)

great points made here... hope my take on this is at least half-way there

At the February meeting - when the CSI of the AIACR assembled for the first time since 1939, with quite a few familiar faces present - it was agreed that the 1938-40 rules would be valid until the end of 1946, with a new formula to be agreed in June and implemented from January 1st 1947. So, it actually became the 1938-46 International Formula, neatly encompassing the races run in Italy and the USA in 1940-41: all the cars which ran in those events were 'formula cars' under the rules as then constituted, although the Italian races were restricted to 1500cc supercharged. This is an aspect of the 1938 formula which very few people can get their heads round!

Several French races, the Indianapolis 500, some 'big car' races in the USA and the Penya Rhin GP were theoretically held to the formula during the year - although the admission of a Cisitalia D46 to the Penya Rhin race shows that - there at least - the minimum weight and bodywork limits were not adhered to. I suspect only Indianapolis may actually have been that strict in terms of scrutineering, but even they had done some minor tweaking of it when formulating their rules for 1941. And - historically at least - the 500 was a Grande Épreuve, although I'm unclear whether it was so designated on the 1946 AIACR International Calendar.

There was also a lot of bargaining which went on regarding the successor formula: it was actually mandated from January 1st 1947, to run for an unprecedented five years (this was extended to seven in October 1947): until now no formula had ever been envisaged to run for more than three years, although the 1934-36 rules had perforce been extended to four. Three races were run to it in late 1946 (there should have been at least one more - but that's another story!) The control fuel idea - part of the original announcement of June 12th 1946 - was subsequently dropped at the next meeting on October 10th 1946, so was never implemented: as far as I'm aware it wasn't used in any of those three 1946 races either.

The name change from AIACR to FIA is actually well documented in the press and also took place in June 1946, during the summer congress. It was the same organisation: essentially, all they did was change the letter heading since it continued to operate from the same offices in the Place de la Concorde - next door to the ACF!

The 'A/B or 1/2?' question is one of the great imponderables - it really isn't possible to say which was the correct nomenclature, since some journalists still used A/B into the 1950s. But it is also not possible to draw a line in the sand and say "this is when they started officially calling it Formula 1".

From some research which Hans (and others) did some years ago, the first meeting of what we could call the AIACR was immediately after the Kaiserpreis at Homburg in June 1904, followed by another in Berlin in December: this was specifically called 'the second meeting of recognised automobile clubs' in a German source of the time. It was at this December meeting that the 1000kg Formula was agreed and the previously-used French flag signals were adopted internationally. The idea of an international sporting commssion had been on the agenda for this meeting, but the disputes over the future direction of racing seem to have delayed this until some time in 1905 and - probably as part of the French getting miffed about the GBT rules - it seems that the nascent AIACR ceded effective control to the existing Commission Sportive of the ACF, which appears to have been founded in at least 1899 (possibly earlier).

Braunbeck's Sport-Lexikon, published in 1910, refers to the December 1905 meeting in Paris as 'the international congress of the recognised automobile clubs'. Until 1907 Braunbeck refers variously to a congress or conference, but their Dieppe meeting of July 6th 1908 is specifically described as being 'Die Internationale Vereinigung der anerkannten Automobil-Clubs'.

This is a translation from an article in the Austrian Allgemeine Automobil Zeitung, i/d 23rd October 1921

The A.I.A.C.R. was founded at a time when the first large, leading automobile clubs of the various countries became active and organized international races, which was in the first years after the turn of the century. They dealt with the introduction of uniform rules for the different racing categories and later always new questions required a uniform solution. Therefore a discussion and an agreement in so many important matters were necessary. From these attempts emerged the foundation of the Association of International Recognized Automobile Clubs, which comprised the leading automobile clubs of the different countries and which as a rule, met twice yearly in Paris, namely in June just before the major race of the season and in December on the occasion of the Paris Salon.

Information received from Martin Pfundner confirms that the AIACR took full control of racing by forming its own Commission Sportive Internationale during a meeting in London in December 1922:

At the General Meeting of the AIACR in London on December 7, 1922 an International Sporting Commission was finally created as a sub-organization of the AIACR. From 1904 to 1922 the ACF had always persisted that they alone were laying down the international racing formulas and sporting code. Austria, Belgium, USA, Spain, France, Great Britain and Italy were elected as member countries.

I would be very interested to learn about the source for this statement.

So far I have not seen any (in period) source which has clearly confirmation about a certain point in time of the official introduction of the term "Formula 1" (before 1981...). Therefore I maintain to my thesis, that Formula 1 was never "introduced". Like Vitesse has excellently explained (as usual) it was just a new International Formula in 1947, but in continuation of the previous formulas (1938 to 1946 and 1934 to 1937 etc.) and to the same purpose.

What was new was the introduction of a second formula in 1948 and only that made it necessary to distinguish between Formula A/I/1 and Formula B/II/2.

At the February meeting - when the CSI of the AIACR assembled for the first time since 1939, with quite a few familiar faces present - it was agreed that the 1938-40 rules would be valid until the end of 1946, with a new formula to be agreed in June and implemented from January 1st 1947. So, it actually became the 1938-46 International Formula, neatly encompassing the races run in Italy and the USA in 1940-41: all the cars which ran in those events were 'formula cars' under the rules as then constituted, although the Italian races were restricted to 1500cc supercharged. This is an aspect of the 1938 formula which very few people can get their heads round!

I had to think a while about this sentence. Well, my understanding is, that in the 1946 meeting they did not care about the previous races in 1940/41, also not about the Bois de Boulogne race in 1945. Don´t you think the expression "valid until the end of 1946" could also be understood as "from now until the end of 1946", which would in effect have meant a re-introduction of the 1938/39 formula for 1946, but without an official formula for 1940-1945?

Anyway the organizers of these races obviously did not care about whether there was a valid International Formula or not. To me it seems like the Italians rather continued in their habit of 1939, running their races to 1500 cc voiturettes, of which most cars happened to fit under the previous International Formula as well as under the regulations for the proposed new formula.

The Bois de Boulogne race was run to rules determined by the organisers (the AGACI) and admitted blown cars of up to five litres, so is really irrelevant. Some of the 1946 French races admitted unblown cars of up to 5 litres: I can only assume they were hoping someone might disinter an old Bugatti T50!

As for the Italian races, research I have done shows that the accepted narrative that the Italians totally abandoned Grand Prix racing for 1500cc racing at the end of 1938 is - quite simply - wrong. As is the suggestion made by some writers that 1500cc cars would have been the Grand Prix cars of 1940. There are many factors in play there. Anyone who would like to read my extensive analysis of this is welcome to contact me by PM with their email address.

The AIACR had closed down in mid-1940, but although no CSI meeting had actually taken place it had - presumably on the personal authority of either René de Knyff or the Vicomte de Rohan - already issued an International Calendar in January: this calendar of course included a number of events which failed to take place, but the three 1940 Italian races and the Indy 500 were also on it, so all four did actually take place under AIACR sanction. The 1941 Indy 500 was also de facto an International, given the entries of the two Talbots, which were made with the assistance of the ACF. Its status de jure is more difficult to determine!

There was of course no obligation on organisers to hold races to the International Formula during 1946, but the AIACR must nevertheless have felt they ought to have one rather than a free-for-all: the simplest way was of course to again mandate the 1938-40 rules, especially since the Americans had used them in 1941 and had already announced in November 1945 that they would apply - with minor tweaks - to the Indianapolis 500 and the AAA Championship in 1946. The Americans also originally intended to adopt the 1.5/4.5 rules from January 1st 1948.

There was a feature on our regional TV news last night regarding a celebration of '50 Years Of Formula One At Silverstone'.

There seemed to be plenty of 'modern' cars and drivers on show and Damon Hill said a few words, most of them about Lewis Hamilton.

Anyone know what that was all about?. Is even the BRDC now re-writing history?. I suppose that 1948 and 49 are now too far away to matter.

Eric, maybe the TV news broadcast was a bit sloppy with the headline. The attached link refers to 50 British Grand Prix, and does admit that 1948, and Villoresi, once existed! Is this weekend one of the 'series of one-off initiatives'??