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For example, the idea to free Kakashi from Zabuza was great, but then later that arc he almost got himself and Sasuke killed by walking straight into Haku's ice mirrors when everyone had already realized that defeating Haku would be easier as long as Naruto simply stayed outside the mirrors. He also made a lot of mistakes during the chuunin exam and the reason they got through the Forest of Death was largely due to Sasuke's and Kabuto's leadership.

Well, in the fight with Haku, yeah that was stupid but ofcourse they are allowed to make mistakes and I'm sure he learned from his mistakes so you can't really use that as a reason why he doesn't have the leadership skill also because this was way before the exam. Also when they were going through the forest of death, you also have to remember that it was Naruto that help them through when they were trapped in that genjutsu and that too made played a large part in their survival.

Naruto pre time skip also inspired a lot of people and that is one of the leadership traits, something that Shikamaru or any of the other genins lacked.

Naruto is the most unintelligent person in the anime. I think ALL of you already know that. If i was the creater i wouldnt make the protagonist like that. Power wise, he obvioulsy is at chunin rank. Damn i wish SAuke was the main character. He would prbably already be jonin.

I agree with that, but pre-timeskip Naruto definitely didn't have much skill as far as leadership of any kind. He was too hot-headed and naive...

If you are solely concentrating on how he can lead if a team was assigned to him, the result would be mostly based on luck - as the mission will be based on at the spot decisions or acts rather than the planned ones. Sure, that is not representative of good leadership skills, but Shika was selected as a chuunin despite having similar traits leading to success/failure.

As long as Naruto can lead his team forward and at the same time having the ability to achieve success, then it would be hard to discuss against his case being promoted as a chuunin.

Also, if you try to form a team with each of them, Shika will be able to adapt to his teammates, but for Naruto you are expected to adapt to him - but, still, there is at least one case against that (against Zabuza - again showing the randomness in his decision resulting in luck-based results). Because of that Shika was able to be selected as a chuunin, while Naruto wasn't. Shika was ready for the missions - even if it is not at the required experience level, while Naruto wasn't.

As I said above, Naruto's main advantage is his strength, and as long as he does have the strength to lead his team, then he should be allowed to take that rank. Even though pre-time skip Naruto didn't have that strength, there are cases that might be used to support him in addition to cases leading to the completely opposite direction.

But, for me, as I said at the beginning, he was not ready.

Quote:

Spoiler:

Post-timeskip Naruto is smarter, but the Kyuubi causes problems for him. When he went up against Oro for example, the Kyuubi's chakra caused him to completely forget about his teammates' well-being. Sakura would've died right there if it weren't for Yamato. And this is before even growing a 4th-tail

Basically, Naruto has chuunin talent, but as far as leadership is concerned, he has a ways to go. I think his skill and talent have increased, but now the Kyuubi has become a bigger hinderance

For the post time skip part:

Spoiler:

He now has the strength and the ability to make rational decisions. We haven't had a chance to observe that a lot due to unexpected highly emotional events, but under Jiraiya's guidance, he must have built enough experience to use that when the time comes.

Kyuubi will always be there and create problems for Naruto when he was forced extremely, but, under normal conditions, for instance, missions that do not push Naruto to the extreme, I don't think that'll be the case. His Kyuubi condition is somehow similar to the strength barrier Shika faces. But, I don't think it is something to be used against him when promoting him as a chuunin.

Naruto may be dim in certain areas but hes not an idiot. i mean he did master alot of techniques that no other genin could. Name another genin with the ability to to Summon(weapons dont count), name a genin that can learn the shadow clone jutsu in one day. a genin who is able to manipulate the shape of his chakra in his hand an perform the rasengan? he knows how to control his shadow clones and lead them into attack he knows that he can use some as a diversion and attack with another from behind, and he knows how to be sneaky when he needs to be. he has more stamina and chakra capacities then anyone in Konoha. Find a genin with natural srength equal to his(Remember his natural chakra is at least 2x that of Kakashi, not including the capabiliies of the Kyuubi)

Well, in the fight with Haku, yeah that was stupid but ofcourse they are allowed to make mistakes and I'm sure he learned from his mistakes so you can't really use that as a reason why he doesn't have the leadership skill also because this was way before the exam. Also when they were going through the forest of death, you also have to remember that it was Naruto that help them through when they were trapped in that genjutsu and that too made played a large part in their survival.

Naruto pre time skip also inspired a lot of people and that is one of the leadership traits, something that Shikamaru or any of the other genins lacked.

He does have the ability to inspire people. That's a good basis to form a capable leader on, but I'd rather follow someone who was smart rather than charismatic especially if my life was at stake. Still, I'm sure there are several occasions were it's better to have a leader with enough strength to handle the challenge rather than smarts. There's so many unique possibilities in any given mission it's hard to say which type of leadership is most useful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

As I said above, Naruto's main advantage is his strength, and as long as he does have the strength to lead his team, then he should be allowed to take that rank. Even though pre-time skip Naruto didn't have that strength, there are cases that might be used to support him in addition to cases leading to the completely opposite direction.

But, for me, as I said at the beginning, he was not ready.

I pretty much agree with that. You bought up a good point in your spoiler tag. I'm hoping this upcoming chapter will shed some light on Naruto's abilities when he's not in a highly emotional state.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Supaiku_of_Sand

Naruto may be dim in certain areas but hes not an idiot. i mean he did master alot of techniques that no other genin could. Name another genin with the ability to to Summon(weapons dont count), name a genin that can learn the shadow clone jutsu in one day. a genin who is able to manipulate the shape of his chakra in his hand an perform the rasengan? he knows how to control his shadow clones and lead them into attack he knows that he can use some as a diversion and attack with another from behind, and he knows how to be sneaky when he needs to be. he has more stamina and chakra capacities then anyone in Konoha. Find a genin with natural srength equal to his(Remember his natural chakra is at least 2x that of Kakashi, not including the capabiliies of the Kyuubi)

Get the point you're trying to make, but every genin has unique abilities. Chuunin promotion isn't really dependent on how many jutsu you know. As we saw, Shikamaru was promoted and he only knew one jutsu at the time.

Location: I live in a freakin' desert...not even a cool desert with cacti and stuff...just a whole lot o' nada

Age: 34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto

-But being a Tokubetsu Jounin is considered lower than an actual Jounin.

Spoiler:

(I believe this was stated in the manga somewhere in the begining of the Chuunin exam arc)

Tokubetsu Jounin specialize in only a particular area whereas actual Jounins are well rounded and are essentially "masters" of what it means to be a ninja. Considering Naruto's drive he'd probably want to become Jounin than it's Tokubetsu counterpart...

Yes, I know Tokubetsu is lower...that's the whole point...he won't be expected to perform Jonin functions, he won't be a team leader and will still be able to function as a team member under a full Jonin. While I agree that Naruto would probably want to become full Jonin, I don't think that it would stop him from accepting Tokubetsu...and there's no rule saying you can't later be promoted to Jonin after you become more suitable.

Yes, I know Tokubetsu is lower...that's the whole point...he won't be expected to perform Jonin functions, he won't be a team leader and will still be able to function as a team member under a full Jonin. While I agree that Naruto would probably want to become full Jonin, I don't think that it would stop him from accepting Tokubetsu...and there's no rule saying you can't later be promoted to Jonin after you become more suitable.

-Oh, I wasn't trying to imply that Naruto wouldn't accept the rank of a Tokubetsu Jounin, far from it. Rather I meant that in the long run he would more than likely aim higher than that (wait a minute, he already set his sights to the highest rank, that being the Hokage). But I would like to argue that he shouldn't accept the title of hokage until he was a sensei to 3 other Genin for a bit...After all, if he can't teach or lead a group of Genin on a D-Ranked mission then Hokage is way out of his league...

On a different note I'm rather enjoying this thread. It's full of rational arguement...or maybe there is just very little fanboyism abound. I enjoy the arguement from both sides.

And on yet another different note, for those who used examples such as the Haku fight, painting the Hokage faces, and other early events. Wasn't the whole point of that showing how Naruto has grown? He has definately come a long way and is deserving of Chuunin. He may not be the best in every area but those who do show strength in almost every area are usually...jounin. I tend to think that all of the Konoha genin(main characters) have proven they are worthy of Chuunin rank. At least in comparison to the Chuunin we've seen. Like I said before, Chuunin is simply a middle class ninja. They all fit that role to me. Actually, now that I think about it. Ino has yet to impress me...but that is neither here nor there.

There were some nice posts up there...things where i never thought about.

I think Leadership can be divided into a few segments such as:

- Follow him/her by the rules
- Follow him/her by his/her insperation
- Folllow him/her because of his strenght

Sometimes you dont have a choice...it's been decided that....Shikamaru should lead (Sasuke chase) however they didnt want to follow his lead because they didnt knew he could pull it off...but because of the rules they had no choice.

Now Naruto is a person who is followed because he inspires people (Hinata for example) i think that is also a great ability.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

That's a good basis to form a capable leader on, but I'd rather follow someone who was smart rather than charismatic especially if my life was at stake.

I think soldiers/leaders of the past (think about Braveheart, Gladiator, Troy) also struggled with that but in the end chose for a charismatic leader.

Think about it (Paper test, 1st Exam) you can follow smart leaders but leaders who take away your fear (Naruto) can give you more strenght.

Sooner or later (perhaps already) is the person with the most experience of his generation going to be Naruto. And it's unlikely that such a person needs to deal with barriers such as a low IQ. Being smart & knowlegde are two different things.

I am positive that Shikamaru is smarter then 3rd or the Sannin. But their knowlegde is way too much of a difference. A factor which is most important in battle.

I think soldiers/leaders of the past (think about Braveheart, Gladiator, Troy) also struggled with that but in the end chose for a charismatic leader.

Think about it (Paper test, 1st Exam) you can follow smart leaders but leaders who take away your fear (Naruto) can give you more strenght.

The best leaders usually have both qualities. Charisma and high intelligence.

The Sasuke Retrieval Arc showcased this. They already had orders to follow Shikamaru. That still didn't stop Naruto, Kiba, and Neji from being skeptical of his leadership. Not a good thing when going into a mission.

Shikamaru first impressed everyone with his intelligence when he put together a perfect formation and strategy in only a few moments.

But it was his charismatic speech about Sasuke that inspired everyone and sold the deal that he was someone you'd want to follow into battle. Shikamaru demonstrated both traits you want in a leader.

Kiba: Now you are starting to look like you deserve that chuunin title.

Now Naruto is a person who is followed because he inspires people (Hinata for example) i think that is also a great ability.

Very true indeed. How many people has Naruto encountered and not had a significant impact on. Most people that encounter him(even for a short while) leave a better or stronger person than before they met him. Now if that isn't a true leadership quality I dunno what is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeDe

The best leaders usually have both qualities. Charisma and high intelligence.

The Sasuke Retrieval Arc showcased this. They already had orders to follow Shikamaru. That still didn't stop Naruto, Kiba, and Neji from being skeptical of his leadership. Not a good thing when going into a mission.

Shikamaru first impressed everyone with his intelligence when he put together a perfect formation and strategy in only a few moments.

But it was his charismatic speech about Sasuke that inspired everyone and sold the deal that he was someone you'd want to follow into battle. Shikamaru demonstrated both traits you want in a leader.

Kiba: Now you are starting to look like you deserve that chuunin title.

Hmm, while I completely agree with you that great leaders usually tend to have both qualities. I would say that those are more so the "natural" leaders. I think it's completely possible(albeit with a lil more work) to become a great leader with only one of those two qualities.

I have come to the conclusion that anyone could kick Naruto's ass just as long as they keep their mouths shut!

Naruto is a plum. As long as you don't fuck with him mentally he's there to be plucked...

TRUTH!

lol, I've recently watched through most of the series again(with the exception of filler, once was enough for that) and I do know what yer talkin about. I guess the same thing could be said for almost every Shōnen type anime. If the characters he fought wouldn't give him reason to do so, I think since Naruto would still have to be the determined guy that he is...he would just come off a lil more crazy since the scene/dialogue would go something like...

__________________________________________________

*Naruto getting beat up by some jutsu that both shocked/suprised him and made him wonder how it was possible*
*queue Naruto's "I'm about to win this fight" music*

Like I was just saying in another thread he's atleast worthy of being Chunnin right now and should get a special exemption by Tsunade (based on her knowing his true-powers and his training with Jaraiya)...I mean I know the fillers have lessened Rasengan to the point you can find it in a gumball machine, but still that's almost a sannin level technique to go with his jounin level cloning skills...And just because he's a Chunnin doesn't mean he has to have a group or be group leader...Tsunade pretty much groups who she wants together and I see no reason why Naruto couldn't be grouped with other Chunnins on mission where he isn't necessarily the group leader(atleast to start)...At some point your accomplishments have to start meaning something despite his lack of great strategic skills (which may come in the way of leading troops, but Naruto has shown he does know how to improvise and think strategic when it's just him)...He's beaten a Kazekage in Gaara, a Jounin-level in Negi (and Kabuto who he nearly killed), progressed way faster than genius-level Sasuke pre-cursed sealed...Learned a technique in Rasengan faster than the chosen one Yondaime did...At some point you have to throw your pre-conceptions out of the window and reward him based on the opponents he's fought and situations he's dealt with...Based on his ranking he's a joke to become Hokage right now and while that makes him a cool sleeper or secret-weapon it doesn't represent what he's capable of...I mean Ino and Choji couldn't hold Naruto's water bottle...It's sad really...

...Learned a technique in Rasengan faster than the chosen one Yondaime did...

Well, Its a bit different, Yondaime created the Jutsu, Naruto was told what to do to, I'm not taking the merit away from Naruto in learning this Jutsu so fast, but there is a difference between creating and learning.

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"when you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." -