This blog is about spiritual awakening, maps and stages, the blinding effects of our strong momentum/conditioning (karmic propensities), view, realization, experience, etc. If you're new here, I recommend going through the 'Must Reads' articles (see sidebar). For discussions you are welcome to join the Awakening to Reality Facebook group

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There seems to be different understandings, or phases of understandings, of emptiness. We can understand emptiness in a manner like 'weather', where weather is merely an imputation upon a collection of phenomena like rain falling, sun shining, and so on. But we can understand this in terms of the emptiness of the imputed label, leaving the collection, the aggregates, the very manifest vivid experience "un-emptied". Actually if we truly realized in direct realization how 'chariot' applies as vivid appearing presence, then that covers all. As John Tan told me before, "Don't keep thinking of aggregates as also empty, if you understand chariot is empty, what is not empty?" However the problem is that the aggregates do appear real unless we've had direct realization that the 'name-only' or 'empty' is actually vivid appearing presence.

The label or chariot that is empty is the vivid appearing presence, unfindable shimmering vivid like mirage.. not mental label. That vivid appearing presence is what is empty just like chariot is empty of itself. This means that one must be able to directly link "empty" with vivid appearances. Instead of empty as empty of essence, empty = vivid appearances.

If we think of a label "chariot" and then think "that labelled chariot is empty of essence", that is not directly experiencing chariot as vivid presence. If we think 'chariot/weather/etc' is empty because of this and that, it is still inferential analysis rather than direct realisation and actualization. However, when one realizes that chariot = vivid appearing presence, it is a direct experiential insight. Empty = this vivid presence. All along it is trying to convey this taste and insight. But conceptually it is understood that way, empty of essence.

Like any object you see, a handphone, a table, a car, that vivid presencing is 'chariot' - is vivid unfindable appearing presence, hence there is no handphone.. pain is vivid appearing presence, hence there is no pain. The vividly presencing handphone is the chariot that appears and functions but is empty, the vividly presencing pain is the chariot. Being so, there is no chariot, no pain, no suffering, and all that negations in Heart Sutra. Heart Sutra even says, "No forms, sounds, smells, tastes, touchables or objects of mind".

But when we talk about the "no"s, there can have many meanings. What does the "no" as a negation mean? Certainly it is not referring to non-existence, which is an extreme. And we certainly do (conventionally) experience forms, sounds... and so on. Obviously anyone reading this is fully cognizant and conscious rather than an inert corpse or a piece of wood. I have seen new Heart Sutra translations that translate 'emptiness' into something like 'empty of independent existence', stressing on how all phenomena are empty of a separate, independent being, else they might be stressing on ‘interdependence’. Although this seems to be a more explanatory and better understanding than ‘nihilistic non-existence’, I would say even that interpretative translation misses the mark, and hence John and I do prefer the more accurate and precise translations over the interpretive ones or those that take poetic liberties. Furthermore we may think that it is the mentally labelled entities that are empty of self-essence but then we fail to go beyond seeing emptiness on the level of constructs.

At the level of direct experiential insight, it is the very unfindability, ungraspability, referencelessness of empty-luminosity.. an appearing “absence”. There is no weather not as in weather doesn't exist but is simply vivid empty appearing/presencing.. but it's not just the mentally labelled entity "weather" that is empty nor is it that weather doesn't exist but the very vivid empty appearing/presencing we call rain falling etc is nothing there, an appearing absence or vivid empty presencing like a rainbow or mirage or hologram. Emptiness is none other than form as it is precisely the appearing absence that is empty, is emptiness. Appearances are mere shimmerings of light-mirages.. it's just taste of empty presencing appearance. So the car I'm looking at, by being like a chariot and mere name is mere shimmering luminous light. It is to see that chariot = vivid appearing presence. Whatever's seen, heard, smelled, sensed, tasted and thought are unfindable despite the clear display, just like chariot. We don't have to differentiate inherency and non-inherency, conceptual or non-conceptual. If you get used to it, whatever appears is just empty.

Form is emptiness, emptiness is form should be understood in this way... taste, see, and smell emptiness.

2009 conversation with John Tan:

“(12:20 PM) Thusness: what you see is DO, emptiness and non-dual, your mind is therefore trapped. This is how our mind is trapped and prevents the seeing. when we are trapped in non-dual, we can't see emptiness. Even when it is clearly mentioned, it can't be seen.(12:22 PM) AEN: so what does that mean? :P(12:23 PM) Thusness: reality is like an illusion. but not an illusion. it is like a dream but not a dream. Everything is a magical display.And everything is mind. :) What does that mean? The mind is always wrongly understood. from "I AM" to non-dual experience. We cannot understand the truth of this mind therefore we can't see mind. just like you can't see the essence of the article. we have a preconception.Everything is mind. And Everything is like a magical display. that is why i said there is no mirror, there is only reflection. the key is to know the nature of mind. to see that everything is reflection, transience Everything is Mind is what that must be derived from anatta and emptiness. but we do not know what "everything" is and what mind is. therefore we cannot 'see' and cannot experience.we cannot see the essence of it. so anatta and emptiness are taught.

what is Everything? it is like magical display, like an illusion. but it is not an illusion. like a dream but not a dream which many misunderstood. therefore when we experience sounds, thoughts, see colors, forms, dimension and shapes...all is empty like an illusion. like dreams like the 'redness' of a flower. like the 'selfness'. like the 'hereness'. like the 'nowness', yet empty, nothing real.

if you can't totally see that pristineness, that non-dual, that luminosity and see only emptiness, you are mistaken. the 'redness', the 'nowness', the 'hardness', the coldness, all are as luminous, as clear, as vivid. we must fully experience it. yet they are not real, nothing concrete, no solidity, nothing substantial, nothing graspable, no findable.

Empty, thus non-dual luminosity and emptiness. we see this union, in all transience, passing phenomena, in emotions, in feelings, in thoughts, in sounds, in sight, in color, in dimension, in shapes, in taste, in hardness, coldness, in sweetness, in sky, in the sound of chirping bird, all experience are like that. empty yet luminous, then we realise that it is the same as mind, it is mind. if we din see these 2 nature of mind thoroughly, we can't see. we distant, we seek, we find. because of its emptiness nature, the manifold, we cannot know what mind is. therefore the ground is taught, the view is taught. empty yet non-dual luminosity, so that you can see and experience directly that the transience are mind, yet there is no self nature, get it?(12:38 PM) AEN: think so(12:38 PM) Thusness: then you experience what is one taste. Because we do not know what mind is, we cannot experience mind. we do not know, that is why insight is important. however if you do not know what is non-dual luminosity and emptiness, how is a practitioner going to experience mind everywhere and know that whatever arises is mind? therefore first anatta (non-dual luminosity), then emptiness, then spontaneous arising. do you understand what i mean? read the article ( On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection )”

“[16/12/16, 12:54:29 AM] John Tan: When you hit a bell, how did the sound arise? Where did it go? Is there arising or can you say there is arising? This is crucial and key to understanding of emptiness and releasing. Why whatever arises in dependence due to conditions cannot be said to arise nor cease? And that is the middle path.

And these must be understood the right way with right view. Not for beautiful language. If consciousness ceases this moment can you say it ceases? If this thought ceases can you say it ceases?[16/12/16, 1:00:05 AM] Soh Wei Yu: No, nothing arose or cease like a city mirage on horizon[16/12/16, 1:00:32 AM] John Tan: But why it cannot be said to cease? I have told you many times you must understand from dependent origination and not just emptiness. Because whatever arises do not arise by itself. Now what did Buddha say? If there is karma and conditions, can phenomena not manifest? If this mind moment ceases, can next mind moment not arise if conditions are there? No, mind moment will arise on conditions, so there is no real cessation. Yet this mind moment is not the same as next mind moment, and they cannot be said to be different either. It cannot be said to have not ceased, and cannot be said to have ceased. As such whatever arises in dependence is non-arisen. Then you talk about the direct experience of mind… Of the six entries and exits. Experience and view. Get it?

You must first separate direct experience from view. Talk about non-dual experience, how it can be distorted with view, and from anatta you realise right explanation of the experience should be dependent origination, emptiness and non-arisen. Not from essence view. And middle path is understood that way. There is not creation but not no creation. Middle path is dependent origination. Because we are so accustomed to essence view, we cannot get used to dependent origination. We want to use essence view to understand dependent origination.”

“As it is said in the Root Verses of the Middle Way:Not from self, not from other,Not from both and not from neither—Not for any entity at all anywhere,Is there ever any production.”

“So, regarding production such as that of the sprout from the seed, the Ācārya Nāgārjuna said:From a seed that is destroyed or intact,The sprout is not produced,So you taught that all productionIs just like magical creation.As it is said, the appearances of dependent origination cannot withstand logical analysis, and when investigated using reasoning that inquires into the ultimate, not even the slightest so-called ‘production’ may be observed. Yet, when left unanalyzed, just like the appearances during a dream, a sprout appears to be produced from a seed. This is simply the way in which the conventional is presented.”

John Ahn said (I'm putting this here so Soh can comment):
I don't really recognize the people in the group anymore. But I've
been studying in a way with Wei Yu and John Tan's stuff for the past 11
years. I don't anymore, actually I haven't for sometime. And I'll sort
of explain why here.
(Wei Yu has me blocked so if someone can
post this to him it'd be good or whatever). For some reason this morning
I felt like writing this.

First
of all the I AM that's often pointed out by the blog is just the ego.
It's certainly not the I AM that's taught by masters in other tradtions.
If you look at the actual teachings of I AM, the sense of background
is rarely mentioned other than the sky and cloud example which just
points to the metaphor of something already present and things that
cloud it.
The ego is the sense of a solid background,
separation, and centainty. Or in the words of a teacher I know, the
"refusal to participate in phenomena." If you ask your self "who am I"
in the conventional sense, it will lead to this sense of center,
background, because the ego is our usual sense of self located within
and withdrawn within the body. It can be localized or conceptually
widened as if a container of phenomena.
The anatta mentioned by
the blog is when you see that this pullback "self" is not real but
manufactured by the mind. So the realization brings the person into
more involvement and activity with the world, thereby creating a sense
of immediacy with phenomena. You become more active by default.
Buddhist philosophy of depedent arising is constantly invoked to stabilize the externalization.
And...that's all it is.
In my experience to conflate this as any spiritual realization or
experience is so shortcoming. Please don't waste your precious lives
believing that having a externalized outlook in day to day living is the
extent of spirituality.
One thing you will notice is that the
externalization of intention, which is all that anatta is, does not
bring bliss or love. I asked thusness some years ago and he confirmed
that himself. It does bring clarity and more energy because there is no
longer extra effort in rerelgating every experience back to the self
(less looping, less clinging). But to say it is some enligthened state,
let alone saying things like 98% of masters don't understand what it
is, is very limiting and ludicrous.

John AhnAnother
thing I will add is that the blog is dismissive of any teachings it
categorizes as I AM or Presence teachings, saying how many teachers are
"stuck" there. But this is a great error of equating I AM with basic
ego sense.

Hence if you take the
blog in good faith, you might also find yourself becoming dismissive of
many many great teachings and methods that can have amazing benefits. I
regret very much how I invested in the blog so much in my earlier years
of practicing as it burdened my sadhana and unnecessarily challenged my
faith in other traditions.

John AhnI'm
not denying any of the experiences described in the blog. I disagree
with the categorization of them to equate with spiritual experiences of
other traditions.

I Am in the blog is just ego sense. The ego sense is powerful if you pullback solely
on it as a literal background of everything. That's what the ego is
anyway, a background. I'm sure a lot of seekers, especially mentally
oriented seekers like most modern day people who do not engage much in
practice, mistake this as realization because the language seems to fit
and the experience is easily accessible.

But
genuine spiritual states are not that easily accessible on one's own. I
learned this when I met masters and teachers who could give tastes of
awareness and bliss that I could not imagine beforehand. I'm not saying
these things are not innate to everyone. It is surely. But for most
normal people, and that includes most of us here, tasting states of
being beyond our mundane limitations is unlikely on our own, especially
without strong committment to sadhana.

So to me
the blog is not really what it claims, as in it's far from the
potentials of enlightenment. And that's the true shortcoming. If you
become mentally convinced that this model is the end all method, then it
will hinder deepening of practice due to subjugating everything into
spontaneous dependent arising.

John AhnOne
major contrast between the blog's description of I AM and other
masters' description of I AM is actually there is no certainty at all in
realization of Self as per their words. No certainty of being.

It's often said it is more of a complete unknowing.

Certainty
of being however is a very accurate way to describe the ego sense.
Everyone goes around really certain of their individuality.

André A. PaisJohn
Ahn what lies in store in the spiritual process in your view? What is
the full spectrum of the spiritual journey in your view and experience?
For instance, spontaneous dependent origination seems pretty good and
deep. What lies further ahead?

John AhnI
think it's important not to ask those kind of questions at all. To
make a mental map of experiences that we have no clue about is a sure
way to limit any potentialities and make mistakes. How can I know the
full spectrum of sometheing I have yet to experience?

But a good mark of progress is bliss and silence. Because you can lie about everything except bliss/love/silence.

If
a seeker is satisfied and happy at whatever stage they are at, then I
think that is completely fine. But to write about it as if it is
enlightenment and saying these teachers are here and those teachers are
there is inviting a challenge.

The blog is pretty
suggestive that the 7 stages are enlightenment. But not only that but
actually better than "98%" of all teachings out there.

The
blog is akin to several no-self teachings out there like LU, AF, or
whatever. The core emphasis is realizing no-self. One thing you will
notice is that eventually once a person has this realization of no-self,
they just end up living lives centered
around mundane sensual pleasures. They won't meditate much as they see
that there isn't much point to committed practice. Rather just natural
living is advocated. It makes sense because now the stress of self
isn't there and there is nothing much to do except, well, do whatever
one feels like.

Words are so very deceiving when we
learn spirituality through them. One person writes as if they are
living an amazing life of "purity, vividness, liveliness" or whatever
but that's a subjective measurement. One person's aliviness is not the
same as another's based on past experience. If one day some more
magnificent thing happens, then that past aliveness now seems pale in
comparison. And there is no way to tell by mere words the true extent
of that practitioner's state.

One way to tell is
via conduct. Is that person still hankering for mundane physical
pleasures even when talking about the wonders of day to day, moment to
moment aliveness, beauty, and wonder? Well, then there is clearly a
rift there between the words and actions. There are some core spiritual
ideas that should be held as anchors in my experience and one of them
is whether a person is self sufficiently joyful without stimuli. If
that's not the case, that that person is just another materialistic
person disguised as a spiritual master.

Hale OhJohn
Ahn I agree with a lot of what you are saying. The stages and maps and
heavy intellectual stuff can be a huge sidetrack and provide lots of
ground for grasping and laying subtle conceptualizations over our basic
nature. That’s why Dzogchen and Zen are appealing to me.

Also agree and the stirring of doubt in authentic teachers and that slowing down progress.

André A. PaisWilliam Lim
well, actually, I always thought those 4 stages were a Soh thing, but
then ended up searching his blog and journal and couldn't find it.
Although it's implicit in Tan's 7 stages.

I did
write about it myself, right at the beginning of the following article.
It's a draft, especially the last section on shunyata.

Soh Wei YuThe
reason i created Awakening to Reality group is so that people who have
similar realizations like I AM and anatta can take off my load.

I have no time to argue with people with ill intents and negative energy. There is a reason why John Tan blocked John Ahn by merely sensing his negative energy without even john ahn speaking further. I blocked john ahn only much later.

Enough
said. I will never speak again to John Ahn. I welcome others to discuss
with John Ahn, but i have no time to waste here, i have a very busy
life

Soh Wei YuOne
more thing: john ahn has never had any I AM realization. He only had I
AM experiences. That is not even the first phase of Thusness Stage 1.
Hence he will never understand what direct realization through self
enquiry is about

I
have no interest in being a teacher of a tradition, or even being a
teacher for that matter. I am sort of anti authoritarian and not into
guru system.

However i have no time to engage in unconstructive speech and hence i have chosen to block john ahn more than a year ago

Just as i see nothing wrong that jax has chosen to block me

It is all good. Life is short, don’t waste time on internet

(later clarification in another post:

Soh Wei YuEdmond Cigale
to be frank i was on pretty good terms with jax until one day when he
was basically saying how stupid the others were and i pointed out that
they are actually sharper and wiser than him, he blocked me. Totally
expected due to his great ego lol)

Soh Wei YuJohn
Ahn said, "One thing you will notice is that the externalization of
intention, which is all that anatta is, does not bring bliss or love. I
asked thusness some years ago and he confirmed that himself."

I can say that this is patently false - Thusness describes
it as "incredible bliss" and has never said it does not bring bliss. It
is just obviously untrue, anyone who realised anatta and stabilized it
will be able to experience great bliss.

2004:

[23:46] <^john^> Buddhism is nothing but replacing the 'Self' in Hinduism with Condition Arising.[23:46]
<^john^> Keep the clarity, the presence, the luminosity and
eliminate The ultimate 'Self', the controller, the supreme.[23:46] <^john^> Still u must taste, sense, eat, hear and see Pure Awareness in every authentication.[23:46] <^john^> And every authentication is Bliss.

2006:

(6:09 PM) John: if longchen can stabilize [anatta] in 3 yrs time, he will be able to enter incredible bliss at will.(6:09 PM) AEN: what incredible bliss(6:10 PM) John: beyond description(6:10 PM) AEN: oic(6:10 PM) John: not a form of mundane samadhi

Great and wonderful insight!Just a 2 cents from a PasserBy, nothing intense.

It is pointless to know the nature of mind is luminous and empty,If there is no insight that this innate nature is the direct seal of Great Bliss.

After insight of anatta, emptiness and non-dual luminosity,It is advisable not to retract to practices that made mind contrive.

Never underestimate this direct path of great ease,Even aeons lives of practices cannot touch the depth of its profundity.

Deeply experience this luminous yet empty nature, its thorough effortlessness and spontaneity.It is the heart of Mahamudra, the great art that simply be.

Deep bow and reverent to Naropa for this view concisely put and,Homage to the ground, this natural state of Great Bliss.

Happy Journey!

2007:

"The
‘who’, ‘where’ and ‘when’, the ‘I’, ‘here’ and ‘now’ must ultimately
give way to the experience of total transparency. Do not fall back to a
source, just the manifestation is sufficient. This will become so clear
that total transparency is experienced. When total transparency is
stabilized, transcendental body is experienced and dharmakaya is seen
everywhere. This is the samadhi bliss of Bodhisattva. This is the
fruition of practice."

2005:

[15:49] <^john^> bliss is complete clarity.[15:50] complete clarity?[15:50] <^john^> when u experience the luminosity without boundary, joy will flow from all directions.[15:50] <^john^> yes[15:50] <^john^> :)[15:50] if bliss is complete clarity, then why do we experience bliss without clarity also?[15:50] <^john^> that is because it is not bliss. :P[15:51] then what is it?[15:51] joy that is not bliss?[15:52] <^john^> it is just a mental state that is created. [15:53] icic...[15:53] then is the bliss experienced through complete clarity, a mental state?[15:53] <^john^> Pure awareness is nothing of that sort.[15:53] <^john^> so how do we know?[15:54] <^john^> :)[15:54] bcos pure awareness is simply aware ?[15:54] <^john^> and what is it like?[15:55] dunnu[15:55] <^john^> the greatest joy in absorption is?[15:56] dunnu :P[15:56] <^john^> forgetting the 'self'. [15:56] oic...[15:57] <^john^> when object and subject becomes one.[15:57] <^john^> but then there is no clarity.[15:57] <^john^> the luminosity isn't there. :)[15:57] then what is the clarity?[15:58] <^john^> it is the Total Presence, Reality.[15:58] <^john^> u know how a mirror reflect?[15:58] the light reflects [15:59] <^john^> when u feel, sense, taste, see without a layer[16:00] <^john^> a layer of thought, belief, words, name, label..etc[16:00] <^john^> without an 'I'[16:00] <^john^> don't even think of it...[16:00] <^john^> some will tell u it is like that.

Soh Wei YuJohn Tan, 2007:"Like
samatha meditation, each jhana state represents a stage of bliss
associated with certain level of concentration; the bliss experienced
from insight into our nature differs.

The
happiness and pleasure experience by a dualistic mind is different from
that experienced by a practitioner. “I AMness” is a higher form of
happiness as compared to a dualistic mind that continuously chatters. It
is a level of bliss associated with a state of ‘transcendence’ – a
state of bliss resulting from the experience of “formlessness, odorless,
colorless, attributes and thoughtlessness’. No-self or non-dual is
higher form of bliss resulted from the direct experience of Oneness and
no-separation. It is related to the dropping of the ‘I’. When non-dual
is free from perceptions, that bliss is a form transcendence-oneness. It
is what I called transparency of non-duality."

(6:01 PM) John: the bond is loosen to a great extend, the energy is released.(6:02 PM) John: i said i almost floated. :P(6:02 PM) AEN: oo.. icic(6:03 PM) John: but i did not write about other experiences...coz many of them in the forum, the mind aren't mature yet.(6:03 PM) John: it is not really good to write about certain experiences(6:04 PM) AEN: oic..(6:04 PM) AEN: what kind of other experience?(6:04 PM) John: and i do not want JonLS to experience it too until total transparency is stabilized.(6:04 PM) AEN: oic(6:04 PM) AEN: wat kind of experience(6:04 PM) John: cannot tell.(6:04 PM) AEN: hahaha(6:04 PM) AEN: ok(6:04 PM) John: just focus on the Bliss. :)(6:04 PM) John: we will not want anything else.(6:04 PM) AEN: oic..(6:05 PM) John: in fact i refused to enter into it before fetters are cleared. :)(6:05 PM) AEN: oic.. u mean.. bliss?(6:05 PM) John: bliss of course must experience lah(6:05 PM) John: lol(6:05 PM) AEN: hahaha icic(6:05 PM) John: the next step is to let him take this idea of 'bond' seriously.(6:05 PM) AEN: icic..(6:06 PM) John: coz many western spiritual masters tend to over emphasize luminosity

(11:36 PM) Thusness: being open isn't that difficult so it's okie to educate.(11:37 PM) AEN: icic..(11:37 PM) Thusness: it is not like an intuitive experience(11:37 PM) Thusness: esp non-duality and emptiness nature(11:37 PM) Thusness: then the conditions must be there(11:37 PM) Thusness: if not that there is no way one can understand it.(11:38 PM) Thusness: after experiencing it, we will have no doubt(11:38 PM) AEN: oic..(11:38 PM) Thusness: and the experience of the joy and bliss will carry the practitioner forward(11:38 PM) AEN: icic..(11:41 PM) Thusness: wah...longchen like dharma protector like that. :P(11:41 PM) AEN: hahaha yea(11:42 PM) Thusness: that is the faith that one has after direct experience.

(11:31 PM) Thusness: there is a level of non-dual that longchen have not experienced yet(11:31 PM) Thusness: it is the finer level of experience(11:32 PM) Thusness: i call it a state of transparency(11:32 PM) Thusness: i will always tell ppl to experience transparency(11:32 PM) Thusness: and feel the bliss(11:33 PM) Thusness: but they might not know what i meant(11:33 PM) Thusness: only when the level of non-dual is up to a certain level then one will experience it(11:34 PM) Thusness: after this then when one tok about DO and emptiness, then has a bit of weight.(11:34 PM) Thusness: otherwise u may say all is spontaneous arising, but really it is karmic propensities in action.(11:35
PM) Thusness: mistaken what that is mechanical and routineness for our
boundless luminous nature that is miraculously spontaneous(11:35 PM) Thusness: this we have to know

(1:06 AM) Thusness: not that there is no understanding of One Reality(1:07 AM) Thusness: there is but the depth differs.(1:07 AM) Thusness: and the experience differs in depth when the emptiness nature is experienced.(1:08 AM) Thusness: this has to do with the intensity of the 7 factors of enlightenment(1:08 AM) Thusness: every intuitive experience will intensify these factors(1:08 AM) Thusness: and experience different level of bliss and joy(1:09 AM) AEN: oo icic(1:09 AM) Thusness: when one is beyond the conceptual level(1:10 AM) Thusness: the understanding becomes like a mixture of the factors of enlightenment(1:10 AM) Thusness: it is these factors that creates the "knowing" as a form of fruition(1:10 AM) Thusness: brightness, bliss, joy...etc(1:11 AM) Thusness: clarity(1:11 AM) Thusness: these are the form of "knowing" that one has(1:11 AM) AEN: oic..(1:14
AM) Thusness: there is no confusion, they are always these factors that
bring the practitioner moves forward and understand more(1:14 AM) Thusness: not because buddha said so, these factors are just there(1:14 AM) Thusness: and one naturally knows he is in the correct path(1:14 AM) Thusness: just like one felt the presence, he knows(1:15 AM) Thusness: when one experience the Eternal Witness, the experience is so unique and clear that he knows(1:15 AM) Thusness: but the experience is misinterpreted(1:15 AM) Thusness: and lost

(12:30
AM) Thusness: after one experiences non-dual, he should be very
thorough in eliminating the background and deconstructing symbols till
complete nakedness.(12:30 AM) Thusness: the more i experience, the more respect i have for Buddha. :)(12:30 AM) AEN: icic..(12:32 AM) Thusness: u must practice till u find tremendous joy and bliss in no-self. (12:32 AM) Thusness: then practice will become effortless.

(7:34 PM) Thusness: when one is able to experience our nature as it is, the bliss experienced is different.(7:35 PM) AEN: oic(7:35
PM) Thusness: The experience and bliss of an eternal witness observing
the transient and the full experience of just the transient is
different.(7:36 PM) Thusness: the bliss and clarity of no-self is of a different dimension.

Soh Wei Yu2008: (11:09 PM) Thusness: stage 1 can be very blissful too.(11:09 PM) AEN: icic..(11:09 PM) Thusness: when the meditative strength is there.(11:09 PM) Thusness: but there is no understanding of the 'forms'(11:09 PM) Thusness: only the pure sense of existence(11:09 PM) Thusness: in thought realm.(11:10 PM) Thusness: not in the 'forms'.(11:10 PM) Thusness: u should know by now.

Haha...the
intuitive experience of non-duality must have made u appreciate deeply
the profound teaching of anatta and emptiness.The joy and bliss of total
transparency will make us drop from our chairs (it can take few
years)...Happy Journey. :)

"Also,
there are various depths of non-duality. There are levels where there
is perception but there is no expereincer... one is ONE with perception.
However, there are level that sensorial perception is deconstructed. At
this level, cognition of things,
environments, objects, person is also deconstructed... what remained is
an inconcievable depthless brilliance.... a most blissful brilliance. "

"4.
Only one tremendous spontaneous clarity flows, there is no
differentiation between what that spins the earth or what that pumps
your heart beats or what that makes the plants grow. When you eat an
apple, it is the entire universe that eats the apple. Just one whole clarity spontaneity flow. Continual experience of transcendence joy and bliss."

(11:56 AM) Thusness: longchen is like entering the 18 dhatus.(11:56 AM) AEN: icic..(11:57 AM) Thusness: or into DO (dependent origination)(11:57 AM) Thusness: just the arising and passing away(11:57 AM) Thusness: without the need for a center, a locality in a non-conceptual mode. :)(11:58 AM) AEN: oic..(11:59
AM) Thusness: depending on the depth of clarity and the ability to
drop, there is a very deep joy in whatever arises in a normal condition.(12:00 PM) Thusness: it is a sort of bliss of luminous presence without the sense of self, division, locality and conceptuality(12:00 PM) Thusness: it can also turn into a sort of absorption.(12:00 PM) Thusness: that is the result of clear insight of our empty luminosity.(12:00 PM) Thusness: not the result of deep concentration.(12:01 PM) Thusness: this is very difficult to understand.(12:01 PM) Thusness: it is an effortless absorption.

(2:00 AM) Thusness: i wrote in luminousemptiness(2:01 AM) Thusness: that if luminosity and emptiness is taught but there is no realisation that it is the great bliss(2:01 AM) Thusness: then one has not realised anything(2:02 AM) Thusness: but chodpa said, not that it is pointless but just a step along the path(2:02 AM) Thusness: so what is it the geat bliss?(2:03 AM) AEN: absorption in luminosity?clarity?i dunno(2:03 AM) AEN: i have experience of bliss but dunnu if its wat u mean(2:04 AM) Thusness: it is actually a sort of absorption(2:04 AM) AEN: ya i notice theres bliss when theres absorption(2:04 AM) Thusness: will talk about that next timei think i will write about anatta(2:04 AM) AEN: icic..(2:04 AM) Thusness: so that u don'tget confused(2:05 AM) Thusness: with non-dual(2:05 AM) AEN: oic..(2:05 AM) Thusness: anatta is about no agent(2:05 AM) Thusness: clarity that there is no agent(2:05 AM) AEN: icic..(2:05 AM) Thusness: and because there is no agent, it has to be direct(2:06 AM) AEN: oicmeans in the sound just the sound(2:06 AM) Thusness: it is naturally non dual

(3:48 PM) Thusness: initially he wanted to go into shamatha(3:49 PM) Thusness: that is why i spoke of the great bliss and the practice of the great ease(3:49 PM) AEN: icic..(3:49 PM) Thusness: and also emphasize that all is mind.(3:49 PM) Thusness: but now after emptiness, he must also see another stuff.that is the maha experience of suchness to complete it.

Soh Wei YuAlso,
non-dual luminosity is blissful but not liberating, emptiness is what
liberates. Other religions focus on the non-dual luminosity but not
necessarily the same as the liberation focused in buddhadharma:

Session Start: Sunday, 12 September, 2010

"(12:15
AM) Thusness: Thorough ‘aliveness’ also requires ‘you’ to disappear.
It is an experience of being totally ‘transparent’ and without
boundaries. If you do not fall back to a background, these experiences
are quite obvious, u will not miss it. (12:22 AM)
Thusness: In addition to bringing this ‘taste’ to the foreground, u must
also ‘realize’ the difference between wrong and right view. There is
also a difference in saying “Different forms of Aliveness” and “There is
just breath, sound, scenery…”(12:23 AM) Thusness: that these arising dependently originates.(12:24
AM) Thusness: In the former case, realize how the mind is manifesting a
subtle tendency of attempting to ‘pin’ and locate something that
inherently exists. The mind feels uneasy and needs to seek for something
due to its existing paradigm. . It is not simply a
matter of expression for communication sake but a habit that runs deep
because it lacks a ‘view’ that is able to cater for reality that is
dynamic, ungraspable, non-local , center-less and interdependent. (12:25 AM) Thusness: Otherwise the mind will continue to locate and seek. (12:26
AM) Thusness: Lastly also understand that 'bliss' is the result of
luminosity, 'liberation' is the result of the insight of emptiness."

"(1:28 PM) Thusness: means u truly see the erroneous view of dualistic and inherent view(1:28 PM) AEN: icic..(1:28 PM) Thusness: then u will understand what liberatesa blissful state does not liberates u"

"Hi Simpo,How have you been getting on? I am planning for my retirement.

I
think after stabilizing non-dual experience and maturing the insight of
anatta, practice must turn towards ‘self-releasing’ and ‘dispassion’
rather than intensifying ‘non-dual’ luminosity. Although being bare in
attention or naked in awareness will help in dissolving the sense of ‘I’
and division, we must also look into dissolving the sense of ‘mine’. In
my opinion, dissolving of the sense of ‘I’ does not equate to
dissolving the sense of ‘mine’ and attachment to possessions can still
be strong even after very stable non-dual experience. This is because
the former realization only mange to eliminate the dualistic tendency
while the latter requires us to embody and actualize the right view of
‘emptiness’. Very seldom do we realize it has a lot to do with our
‘view’ that we hold in our deep most consciousness. We must allow our
luminous essence to meet differing conditions to realise the latent
deep. All our body cells are imprinted and hardwired to ‘hold’. Not to
under-estimate it. " - 2010?

Compassion
is vital to one’s practice and progression. Many years ago, John Tan
informed me that he was expecting to have some breakthrough from the
front of wisdom and insight for many years, and yet unexpectedly the
breakthrough he was expecting came from compassion.

“You
just have to be less conceptual. What is more important is to boldly
let go of self and practice metta (Loving-Kindness). It is the best way
to actualize anatta.” - John Tan, 2018

“Anatta does not deny you from being compassionate, contrary it opens up your mind, body and heart fully.” - John Tan, 2019

"My
practice isn't esoteric but direct, simple empty clarity and
compassion. My entire experience is currently free and liberating... and
fills with joyous reverence and compassion. Very happy. An open expanse
of brilliance clarity beyond description... without dual and solidity.
My entire being is filled with/embraced will this clean, pure boundless
insubstantial radiance freedom... energy dancing joyously and like gonna
burst. I just want this empty clarity to be as natural as possible with
this reverence and compassionate taste. Once your empty clarity
becomes clear, powerfully present and naturally non-dual without concern
of maintaining... the 3 states (waking, dreaming and deep sleep) will
have a single taste. Deep Sleep and waking will share a single taste of
bliss as if it is a perfection seamless continuum ... There is no
concern. The strong presence will guide you... The greater the strength
of this insubstantial brilliance clarity, the lesser the concerns. Only
when our presence is weak there is the problem with distractions. It is
like when a bodhisattva filled with compassion is not distracted with
own suffering at all." ~ John Tan, 2014

"Sometimes I wonder why must the topic frequently oscillate between emptiness and preserving an indestructible essence.

Perhaps after experiencing the boundless brilliance, the aliveness,
we feel deep down we must somehow exist in a true, solid and substantial
way. The more we experience our radiance clarity, the more difficult
for us to let go. This I understand. Maybe we should channel some bits
of our time and energy towards understanding the relationship between
compassion and emptiness.

When watching Garchen
Rinpoche movie that Piotr sent me, it seems that to Garchen Rinpoche,
nothing matters more than sentient beings. Whether there “is or isn’t”
an essence seems to be a non-issue; if there is, he would joyfully and
generously sacrifice for the benefits of sentient beings when needed.
This is what I gathered from the movie.

I am beginning to see why Nagarjuna asserted that emptiness is the womb of compassion.

I am beginning to understand without the awakening of Bodhichitta, there is no true realization of emptiness.

I am beginning to see why Bodhicitta and wisdom are the causes of Buddhahood.

Soh Wei YuEveryone
is welcome to discuss, debate and hold opposing opinions with me or
anyone. However if you are blocked by me, and so far I have only ever
blocked one person in my 12 years of using facebook - John Ahn - then I
am sorry but i will remove you as I am unable to see and moderate posts started by you.

I have also been blocked by only one person in my 12 years of using Facebook and that happens to be jackson peterson. Lol

Robert Dominik1.
Writing about the importance of bliss and qualities of enlightenment
but complaining about wasting time and writing something full of
bitterness and blame at the same time.2. Conflating somebody's sharp intelectual faculties and choosing a particular form of writing expression (long stuff loaded with information) with lack of experiental realisation (aka antintelectualism).3.
Straw man arguments (mistaking Anatta for mere seeing through personal
identity and claiming that the oponent conflates I Am with that).4.
Accusing somebody to be stuck in concepts because the other person uses
maps of insight which do not put on pedestal certain paths. Mistaking
not seeing finding liberative wisdom in certain teachings for close
mindnedness.5. Blaming the person who was once seen as a
mentor/guide/rolemodel for one's own past spiritual attitudes, opinions
and lack of development - dumping responsibility

I expected more of John AhnFor
the record im not criticising the person here but the message. I find
John to be a honest spiritual practitioner who is genuinely devoted to
his particular form of sprituality.

Soh Wei YuJohn
ahn also had glimpses of no mind (not anatta) but he did not realise
Presence (although he had experiences) and hence he did not understand
that our anatta includes the I AM presence, nothing is denied but made
uncontrived, centerless and effortless. Anything lacking Presence is not our anatta.

“After
the maturity of anatta insight and twofold emptiness (which will be
discussed later in this document), eventually there is effortless,
ongoing and intense experience of "everything as Self", "As in that
experience of I AM powerfully present at this moment", "As if like
Awareness clear and open like space, without meditation yet powerfully
present and non-dual. Where the 4 Aspects of I AM are fully experienced
in this moment. This experience will become more and more powerful later
yet effortless and uncontrived. How so? If it is not correct insights
and practice, how is it possible for such complete and total experience
of effortless and uncontrived Presence be possible?". "Indeed and this
is being authenticated by the immediate moment of experience. How could
there be doubt about it. The last trace of Presence must be released
with seeing through the emptiness nature of whatever arises. After
maturing and integrating your insights into practice, there must be no
effort and action.... The entire whole is doing the work and arises as
this vivid moment of shimmering appearance, this has always been what we
always called Presence." "Yes and you should in all moment of 6 entries
and exits experience all coming together for this moment to
arise....this will dissolve all senses of holdings and will lead you
effortless and maha experience of suchness effortlessly",
"interpenetration, open, boundless, effortless and uncontrived." (John,
2012)” - AtR Guide https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xCaHV3T7LMNvuLew3eg-Vgjc_Q2tm6vnw7Yuy_Pv67Y/edit?fbclid=IwAR1t-p0YpRxX8DkgiZCSSmvflMuLVwb_FVKDES_ep_7JhsgBrXFP99uBQSg#“The anatta I realized is quite unique. It is not just a realization of no-self. But it must first have an intuitive insight of Presence. Otherwise will have to reverse the phases of insights.” - John Tan, 2018

Robert DominikWell
to balance the energy out I will say that I have greatly benefited from
Soh's blog. Lately this came to a fruition: breakthrough into
complete, utter and irreversible certainty of impossibility of any
selfhood. Experiental insight (will write some report soon).

I
get why some people might not benefit from the blog. Sometimes the
stuff Soh writes is pretty loaded with info and terminology. But thats
just the style. Only people pleasers think you can suit all tastes. Also
the blog really does not offer that much regarding concentration, yogic
practise or devotion. Its mostly centered around insight. For good
reason - its precise and unforgiving in this field.
Obviously most people need other forms of spiritual discipline but the
blog does not demand exclusivity and from what I remember Soh and
Thusness sometimes share recommendations like Somatic Meditation etc
(which inspired me greatly).

Also I think the
problem is that some people like to read the blog, learn the lingo and
maps and then parcitipate in discussions pretending they understand
(like me a couple of years ago). However one should be critical,
constantly check and really, precisely verify everything the blog
suggests in ones meditation and behavior. Just parroting Soh and
Thusness does not qualify for a path towards achieving same results. And
that happens to every spiritual guide. Sometimes also there is needed
certain chemistry between the mentor and the one who is learning. That
depends on karma etc.

I personally would like to thank Soh Wei Yu and John Tan.Without
the blog Id be stuck in neoadvaita land I guess or I would project
neoadvaita and new age views onto Buddhadharma thus blocking my
practice. Also I met Malcolm and Dzogchen via Dharma Connection group.
Its my main path and though I do not share some of the Soh's opinions
regarding my root Guru CHNNR - I am very grateful and fond of their
work.

Thusness
from the get go was honest that the map is not ultimate. In todays
spiritual landscape it is really hard to map all the various teachings
and insights. But the maps and classifications are useful in wordly
business (like for distinguishing music)
and in spiritual field too (theyve been part of the deal for thousands
of years). No map is perfect but the purpose is to give some tools to
orient oneself instead of being fumbling in the dark. 7 stages model
does a pretty decent job and works where many projects like the famous
Hawkins scale or Wilber model fail.

Soh Wei YuI
see. Jenny told me previously that she has no doubts I have gone
through those stages, so I don't think she is referring to John Tan, me,
or others in this group who has gone through the process?

Jenny Jennings FoerstI
don't know John Ahn personally, so I was responding only to the quote. I
generalized an impression from the quote. Forums generally don't work
for me, esp. large ones. The most frequent and loudest naysayers of this
or that level of practice haven't …See More

Soh Wei YuAlso
as per buddhadharma, knowledge of emptiness, the nature of mind, is a
very specific knowledge. You either have it and have complete certainty
in it or you do not, and there is no middle. There is no mystery or
unknowing involved in realising and actualizing the nature of mind which is empty clarity.

As
lopon malcolm pointed out, The realisation or knowledge of emptiness at
the first bhumi is identical with that of a buddha. The only difference
is in terms of obscurations eliminated, qualities attained, etc

Even
the first bhumi must have realised what the ultimate is, but it does
not mean one has all the qualities of shakyamuni buddha. But a first
bhumi is an arya, an awakened person

Soh Wei YuSo
when john ahn says that i imply i am enlightened, i have to say it
depends on what definition he is using it for. Actually the more
traditional and proper term is awakening.

Enlightenment or awakening, as in realising the nature of mind, sure. I do
not make it subtle that i am indeed enlightened and so are a couple of
others in this group. John tan plainly told me more than ten years ago
that he is enlightened. There is no doubt that he, me, and some others
here are enlightened.

But buddhahood? I doubt there
is a single soul (oops, or no-souls) that is a buddha on this planet in
this day and age. Maybe there are but i am not easily convinced and will
need to see and interrogate that person myself. Lol