Seat Tube Angles on Balance & Toir

I rode a Yelli Screamy for a number of years and really enjoyed it. I'm thinking about coming back to Canfield for a full suspension.

I've been looking at these two frames, more specifically the Toir. Both have Steep (75-77 degree) "effective seat tube angles", which is what I personally consider mandatory for any new bike. Unfortunately they also have very slack (69-70 degree) "actual seat tube angles"

I cant find any clear indication of where Canfield is measuring the "effective" seat tube angle from (bottom bracket center to what?)

Anyone with one of these frames in person have some better measurements? Where point on the frame/in space does the ESTA point towards?

Also, whats up with the web store?
-Balance is listed as closeout, listing page says "2017 models are back in stock", but the only option to buy is a 2016 medium.
-Likewise, the Toir is listed as a closeout, listing page says "all sizes back in stock", but the only options to buy are small and medium.

Actual STA is the angle of the tube from 90°.Effective is center of BB to center of saddle at average seat height.
I have the Riot, and can vouch for a pretty steep STA. On punchy peddly trails I ride with 165mm cranks and the saddle slammed back to mimic closer to 75° and use a 40mm stem

When I travel and the climbs are much longer, I'll slide the saddle to the center and run 170mm cranks. This puts my weight over or past the BB with a 50mm stem.

I understand the fundamental difference between the two measurements, but this specific one is the one that is never made explicit. What is the "average seat height" exactly? I would hope the industry would use a universal position (such as where the imaginary 'reach' line intersects with the actual seat tube angle), but it's rarely made clear what they are using.

I'm glad to hear that you've found the ESTA to work out well for you, but I'd like to have as much information as I can before I buy a bike that I'll probably never have a chance to test-ride beforehand.

I understand the fundamental difference between the two measurements, but this specific one is the one that is never made explicit. What is the "average seat height" exactly? I would hope the industry would use a universal position (such as where the imaginary 'reach' line intersects with the actual seat tube angle), but it's rarely made clear what they are using.

I'm glad to hear that you've found the ESTA to work out well for you, but I'd like to have as much information as I can before I buy a bike that I'll probably never have a chance to test-ride beforehand.

The average seat height I believe is 20mm above the top of head tube. What size bike and crank length do you use? And what's your cycling inseam...I might be able to help you out.

I'm on an older "XL" bike, 426mm reach / 600mm stack. Cranks are 175 (which I'm not partial to nor have I ever really though about). 6'2" with a 34" inseam. I don't know what a cycling inseam is.

I think the average seat height is based on 32" inseam.
I doubt shoe thickness and saddle height from rails will vary to much I added 4.5" to my seat height and got 75° on my Riot.
This makes sense if your inseam is 2" taller than average. Since 1" =1° MOST THE TIME.

I doubt shoe thickness and saddle height from rails will vary to much I added 4.5" to my seat height and got 75° on my Riot.
This makes sense if your inseam is 2" taller than average. Since 1" =1° MOST THE TIME.

Well, 75 should be steep enough.

Are these bikes in model-year transition? Or are they being discontinued? The web store still doesn't have anything in my size listed as being available.

Why is this bike called the Riot and also the Toir? did they get a trademark infringement from another mfg?

Are these bikes in model-year transition? Or are they being discontinued? The web store still doesn't have anything in my size listed as being available.

Why is this bike called the Riot and also the Toir? did they get a trademark infringement from another mfg?

Model year transition, I guess. I don't think they will be making any more of the current Riot or the Balance. There is a new carbon frame that is 27.5/29 convertible and is due out later this year. I would suggest not holding your breath for it! So far there are not even full photos of the prototypes.

Plenty of used bikes floating around, though. Riot = Toir, there was a trademark issue. There is a "new" XL Balance frame on pinkbike right now and at least one XL Riot.