Ask Ray | The essential self and the continuity of pattern

Congratulations! I saw you yesterday on PBS NewsHour. I had no idea that teaching a computer to win at Jeopardy was so much harder than teaching it to play chess. You explained it well. The computer has to appreciate jokes and irony, which is much harder than making logical deductions.

The Time magazine cover mentions immortality. I am convinced that through your work, science is leading us towards the conclusion that man is immortal; your experiments with health and your writings on longevity are demonstrating that only the body dies but the essential being that resides in the body is immortal. In principle, one could preserve the body indefinitely and the essential being who dwells within would continue to manifest. I know you don’t look upon it in this way. But whichever way you look at it, man is immortal.

This is what Vedanta says also. And it does not merely say it; it claims that this Truth can be experienced by a pure mind. This is what Yoga means — union with the divine. We just need to wake up from a state of ignorance about who we are in reality. Although I have never experienced this awakening myself, I have been closely associated with at least one person who I believe has experienced this ”illumination.”

Best,Cyrus

[ Dr. Cyrus Mehta is president and co-founder of Cytel Inc., a leading provider of clinical trial design services, software and specialized statistical applications primarily for the biopharmaceutical, medical device, regulatory and academic research markets. Information about Cytel and Dr. Mehta can be found here at Cytel's website.]

I agree with you that the “essential self” can live on as our body changes, even dramatically. Indeed this happens normally anyway. We are a completely different set of particles within a few months. There is a continuity of pattern, and I think that identity is linked to this continuity. I fully appreciate both the Western view (that fundamental reality is matter and energy, which has evolved into minds) and the Eastern view (that fundamental reality is minds, which bring matter and energy into reality).

Interestingly, quantum mechanics appears to meld the two views, in that particles do not really manifest themselves until a conscious observer observes them. I look forward to further discussion on this.

All the best,Ray

Some interesting side notes on Indian spiritual tradition and “universal consciousness” as a persistent or transcendent self:

Regarded by his devotees as an incarnation of divinity, his life was spent in uninterrupted contemplation of “universal consciousness,” and he and his chief disciple, Swami Vivekananda, were influential figures in the Hindu Renaissance of the 19th and 20th centuries. His life and teachings have been widely discussed.

Having experimented with other religions, notably Islam and Christianity, he said that they “all lead to the same God.” His central message was the living “attainment of God-consciousness” by all people.

“Drawn by the magnetism of Sri Ramakrishna’s divine personality, people flocked to him from far and near — men and women, young and old, philosophers and theologians, philanthropists and humanists, atheists and agnostics, Hindus, Christians and Muslims, seekers of truth of all races, creeds and castes.

“His small room in Calcutta became a veritable parliament of religions. Everyone felt uplifted by his profound God-consciousness, boundless love, and universal outlook. His greatest contribution to the modern world is his message of harmony of all religions through their common goal: communion with God.” — Ramakrishna-Vivekananda Center of New York

The Mahamrityunjaya Yantra

Mahamrityunjaya Yantra | The “Mahamrityunjaya Yantra” from Indian spiritual tradition, shown at left. Yantras (geometric pictograms) are used as visual and mental focal points of concentration while meditating or chanting. This yantra is the symbolic embodiment of the eternal energy of the god Shiva as “Conqueror of Death.” Meditating on this yantra is supposed to invoke protection from illness and accidents and bring prosperity and long health. Each fold of the symmetrical geometry is a symbolic representation of a different layer of mind.

Comments (7)

Dear Ray,
The word immortal can have more than one meaning. From a physical standpoint, all it can mean is prolonging life beyond previous norms. Matter always disintegrates, sooner or later, and our bodies go down the chute with it. Do we—whoever we are—have to go down that chute along with the matter that makes up our bodies? I also wonder: Does lengthening life also mean improving the quality of that life?
I ask this because I see everywhere I look—in scientific reports, AARP bulletins, even on MSN news clips—that people with meaning and purpose in their lives (usually of a religious or spiritual nature) live longer than most people and also have a much better quality of life on all counts. It is also known from the East that people who have mastered the technology of yoga, which is the “science” of spirituality, can live phenomenally long, be in the best of health, and be far more contented and happy than most people.
Another important feature of such people is that they are not afraid of dying because they know they are not limited by their bodies. From one standpoint this is the best kind of immortality, because you can enjoy your life while you have it and not have to deal with the fear that makes even a long life quite a burden for many of us.
Are you factoring this kind of thing in to your efforts to achieve immortality?

My husband and I are your fans and followers. We are so impressed by the movie Transcendent Man, which we watched the other night. Your personal story touched our lives. Your mission to defy death is a noble one. I, too, fear death the way you do only that I doubt if I am disciplined enough to take 250 pills a day. My background is the humanities and my husband’s business but we both admire science and especially the “science of the future” so to speak. I am particularly fascinated by AI. The idea of having a smart machine understanding our needs and fulfilling them is very tempting. I was wondering if, in theory, one day we could create a man/cyborg/robot/half machine/half man who would encompass several fictional characters gathered from books and films, a so-called prototype of all desired characteristics. I also wish to live at a time where that special robotic blood cell is available for our use…Would not that be lovely if we store no more fat and the Type 1 diabetes my husband suffers from be resolved?

We wonder what your thoughts are on Fusion Power. You mentioned solar panels but isn’t Fusion even better? My husband had interviewed personnel in the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory and could not be happier speaking with those great minds. Although I somewhat fear to lose some of our humanity, I am all for “improvement”. Life is difficult enough and I would enjoy a “godlike” existence. I wonder about your views about Jung and the film Knowing, as well as The Road and Limitless. With all the natural disasters going on, do you think we will make it to The Singularity? The film Artificial Intelligence is one of my favorites although it makes me very sad. I think we would need to consider compassion for those “machines” as well, not just for humans. We have watched and read so much by Carl Sagan, Phillip Dick and Arthur Clarke, as well as Asimov and Heinlein. Your work is sacred for us as it can save the human race from itself. Personally, I regard you as our next Einstein and DaVinci if not much better than them.

I wish we could attend the Singularity University but we live on the other coast…Perhaps we could visit you in the MIT for a lecture or a seminar one day? Thank you so much for what you have been doing for humanity. Best Wishes. We hope that your vision will make this world a better place.

2) Ray said, “quantum mechanics appears to meld the two views, in that particles do not really manifest themselves until a conscious observer observes them”. This strikes me as highly implausible (based on the ideas that particles probably preceded conscious observers in the Universe, and that particles probably don’t “know” whether they’re being observed by conscious observers or not), but I also don’t know anything about quantum physics. Anyone who knows what he’s talking about care to elaborate on that statement?

Have you ever heard of Schrödinger’s cat? It’s a thought experiment used to demonstrate the “strangeness” of our current understanding of quantum mechanics and, in my opinion, is a petty interesting way to explain what he is probably referring to.

This is one of those instances when common sense is going to fail you. A great many things about quantum mechanics belie our everyday common experiences. Ray’s statement is probably a little overdone, but not in the way you think; he’s correct in principle. I suggest you do some research on the Heisenberg uncertainty principle and Schrödinger’s cat. Have fun learning.

As Yogis and Monks Philosophy there is a probability of immortality through Spiritual Awareness, But Imagine how much Lengthy Process and it may not work for all Human Beings because of Most Spiritual Activity Requests Sharp and Pure Mind how can it possible for ordinary Peoples,
Immortality Through Technology is the best choice ever, Programming and Rearranging the bit of our DNA Just like Computer Bit of information, Exponential growth in the filled and interest of GNR (Genetic, Nano Tech and Robotics) they can allow as to understand what to do sooner,
We do have plenty of programmers sooner they will program human ver. 1., To Version 2.
Technology is a result of Millions of People and Generation Research and development on know things, we are not sure about the mystery of Spiritual Activity Still so the next Super Intelligent Machine with the ability of Spiritual Sensor will allow as to understand about GOD, and Other extra tertiary Now is not the Time to bother about those things it is
First immortality then Next
Technology once you build you can apply for every human being, One Person Spiritual Experience may not effectively transfer for the rest of our society knowledge Transfer error rate is too much high,
That is what happening in Africa people are waiting GOD or someone to come and solve their problem if Education and Intelligence there Africa is Rich in Natural Resource
So the world Should change through Science and Technology only, the rest will come latterfindget@gamil.com

I for one would like to see this conversation continue. I appreciate that you’re both very busy men, but I’d be grateful for a further response to the following.

Rigorous philosophical thinking on continuity of consciousness will allow us to make better decisions about which technologies will most likely provide an extension of our current subjective lives, and which ones are likely to be false starts. It is perhaps one of the top-five most important transhumanist challenges. Unfortunately, however, much of the transhumanist community seems to misunderstand the philosophical underpinnings of continuity of consciousness, and uploading is often thought to be something it cannot logically be.

Ray, you assert that “we will have effectively uploaded ourselves, albeit gradually, never quite noticing the transfer. There will be no ‘old Ray’ and ‘new Ray,’ just an increasingly capable Ray” (TSiN: 202) This is philosophically sound in the sense John Locke understood continuity of consciousness in 1689, and I’m aware of no widely recognized refutation to Locke’s thesis of identity since then. This would seem to be a sound model for attaining some level of immortality; it posits no logical barriers, only technically difficult barriers.

On the other hand, “uploading as in the sudden scan-and-transfer scenario,” while it will happen in the technical and objective sense, introduces significant violations of Locke’s principles a continuation of the subjective self; it is the “old Ray” and “new Ray” problem. Sudden scan-and-transfer would seem to be to minds what cloning is to DNA and bodies. It would seem to be a duplication of a pattern, not a continuation of a pattern that is “itself alone” (Locke). There are, of course, even more complex models that blend these two scenarios, but the basic distinction is enough for this conversation.

It is why I believe we should be steering investments toward technologies that will facilitate the gradual change of our substrate, not “sudden scan-and-transfer” (although such technology will happen and will have its uses). It is also why I am hesitant to recognize the value of backing up the mind-file, at least as you present it. If my substrate is destroyed, and my mind with it, a new substrate with a recovered mind from my backup file will not be “old John”, but “new John”. Old John will still be gone… immortality is not a package without some caveats.

Thanks for this site, Ray, for the forum, and for your regular contributions here. They’re much appreciated.