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It's implying two meanings if we reconsidering R2 title of 25th episode - Re.

It could be that's Lelouch flashback that captured by World of C.
Or it could be that she's captured -> run away -> captured again.

Whats wrong with her clothes in the scene? In the first episode she seems to be wearing a Kimino, not her "Bondage suit" that she wears in the memory hall/world thing. In Re she is just wearing normal clothes, but has Cheese-kun and a oragami swan... so it can't take place before things happened. If that is what you were trying to imply here...

Also where is it that she was captured again? She went to the order of her own will to run it. She then left when she learned of Marianne's death. There is then a gap in what we know of her and where she went, though we know she was with Lelouch and Nunnally for SOME period of time before the war. I can't remember if it was said where/when she was captured, so I'm just going to assume she was captured in Tokyo... probably not too long before she forms the contract with Lelouch. Who was also in Tokyo.

During the year gap between R1 (if you want to call it that) and R2 she isn't captured, she is just in hiding with some of the other Black Knights who weren't captured like Kallen.

At the end of R2 she probably goes back into hiding, maybe somewhere in China? Even in this day and age there are still places where they use cart and horse and would maybe dress like that. It's said that in Code Geass China has a lot of poverty and stuff too, so it isn't that unlikely that there could be places like that where cart and horse were the main transportation. Plus obviously she got caught when she went to a more modern city and stuff... so why not do the opposite?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tactics

See at Lelouch eyes during the 1st episode of R2.
Lelouch's Geass is supposed to be permanently activated.
But Lelouch eyes is normal until C.C. doing that business kiss

You know, I didn't even think of it before... but that provides some foundation for my "length" theory. The contact with her helped re-enforce his own power and helped him overcome Charles' Geass. There is obviously some power that the people who have a Code have when interacting with people... they can bestow Geass, and maybe semi-control how it effects people too.

Now whether he would have broken it on his own if C.C. wasn't there I don't know. But he also had reason to break it, just like Nunnally did, but when he broke it Charles was still alive. If it was because of (or helped by) contact with C.C. then contact with a Code holder obviously effects Geass in some way.

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Originally Posted by Tactics

The same principle is worked with Nunnally.
She may hadn't seen anything before, but it doesn't mean she'll suffer difficulity to see anymore.
Because in her true memory, she is able to see everything clearly.

If you're implying she's supposed to try to regaining the sight first, she's already did that.
If not, the FLEIJA Detonator wouldn't placed in her hands.
Lelouch take a long time before he reach Nunnally, it gave her more than enough time to adapt her eyesight.

Yet all the times we see her she has her eyes closed. It's not like she has her eyes open and is truly seeing, but not remembering it. I can't remember if it was Lelouch or her, but someone made a comment about how her eyes were closed. So it's more akin to wearing a blindfold for the last 8 years. That should more than ruin her eyesight and it would take time for it come back. More time than just the time from when she broke it to when Lelouchh walks in. We're talking days, weeks, or months before it gets back to normal.

She had the FLEIJA Launcher given to her because she requested it. She wanted to basically do the same thing that Lelouch was doing with Zero Requiem. Make a symbol of hatred so that there could be peace. I don't know if she planned on killing herself, destroying Damacles (sp?) or what, but that was basically why Lelouch used his Geass on her. He was all like "no, I can't, I wont!" until she said she wanted to make a symbol of hatred so that there could be peace... Next thing you know he has the launcher.

What my theory is/implies is that she had that time to recover her eyesight already. Any nerve damage or something from the lack of sight for the last 8 years is repaired. However, because she had been blind for so long and didn't know she wasn't, she basically stayed blind. When she opened her eyes it probably wasn't clear sight until the time passed to when Lelouch came up though.

If she did just suddenly break the Geass and it hadn't possibly worn off, then it should have been like if you just took off a blindfold after wearing it for 8 years. There is like no way she should be able to see.

If they had just drawn her with her eyes open but said she was blind then there wouldn't be any problem. The Geass just blocked a pathway and then it's gone and no damage. But her eyes being closed throughout everything changes the dynamics. There just needs to be some time for any damage to be sort of repaired, and if she suddenly breaks it I just don't see that time.

Lelouch is shown to be very calm throughout the series, especially when conversing with his father . After warming up to him of course, and realizing his father didn't want to directly kill Lelouch.

But, it might've been Lelouch's last resort to go be even more calm than usually, especially before his "worst enemy", after losing all the Black Knights faith, and most of his technology, and allies. I would be kind of heedless if all that happened to me in like two hours.

That was Lelouch character-base. A lie.
Even Suzaku and Kallen clearly said that everything he said is just a lie if there's no action.

By sacrificing himself ( to atone his sins ) he force a lie called "Peace" to the world.
How a lie save a world and those precious for you.

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Originally Posted by Cynor

Whats wrong with her clothes in the scene? In the first episode she seems to be wearing a Kimino, not her "Bondage suit" that she wears in the memory hall/world thing. In Re she is just wearing normal clothes, but has Cheese-kun and a oragami swan... so it can't take place before things happened. If that is what you were trying to imply here...

Also where is it that she was captured again? She went to the order of her own will to run it. She then left when she learned of Marianne's death. There is then a gap in what we know of her and where she went, though we know she was with Lelouch and Nunnally for SOME period of time before the war. I can't remember if it was said where/when she was captured, so I'm just going to assume she was captured in Tokyo... probably not too long before she forms the contract with Lelouch. Who was also in Tokyo.

During the year gap between R1 (if you want to call it that) and R2 she isn't captured, she is just in hiding with some of the other Black Knights who weren't captured like Kallen.

At the end of R2 she probably goes back into hiding, maybe somewhere in China? Even in this day and age there are still places where they use cart and horse and would maybe dress like that. It's said that in Code Geass China has a lot of poverty and stuff too, so it isn't that unlikely that there could be places like that where cart and horse were the main transportation. Plus obviously she got caught when she went to a more modern city and stuff... so why not do the opposite?

What i meant is ...

Re's episode preview is showing Lelouch flashback.
And C.C. clothes during that scene ( seeing Suzaku and Lelouch as child ) is a clothes that only shown as the series progress, especially in World of C event.

As a side note, C.C. won't get those clothes without getting captured, as shown by Kallen as she's being captured after China Arc.

It's possibly a reference that C.C. is remembering Lelouch after R2 Turn 25, as C.C. never seen their childhood until she makes a pact with Lelouch.

Or possibly a reference that C.C. saw them before/after getting captured by Brittania as a test subject.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynor

She had the FLEIJA Launcher given to her because she requested it. She wanted to basically do the same thing that Lelouch was doing with Zero Requiem. Make a symbol of hatred so that there could be peace. I don't know if she planned on killing herself, destroying Damacles (sp?) or what, but that was basically why Lelouch used his Geass on her. He was all like "no, I can't, I wont!" until she said she wanted to make a symbol of hatred so that there could be peace... Next thing you know he has the launcher.

What i meant is ...

Nunnally clearly lose the FLEIJA Launcher when the Damocles is trembling.
She's trying as hard as she can to find the Launcher.

Why she's shocked as her head is moving to where the Launcher is located ?
Why she's holding the Launcher when she met Lelouch.

He didn't even have to sacrifice himself to atone or bring peace. Infact, he caused even more destruction with what he did. He could have just been a good leader to bring about peace, and more of a sure thing at that, and to atone as well.

"Sacrificing himself" was just an excuse to commit suicide after everything he had lost, including Nunnally's apparent death at the time he began his plan. He took the coward's way out, even if he had a ton of crap dumped on him.

He didn't even have to sacrifice himself to atone or bring peace. Infact, he caused even more destruction with what he did. He could have just been a good leader to bring about peace, and more of a sure thing at that, and to atone as well.

"Sacrificing himself" was just an excuse to commit suicide after everything he had lost, including Nunnally's apparent death at the time he began his plan. He took the coward's way out, even if he had a ton of crap dumped on him.

At my logic, there's a lot of problems.

There's Schniezel out there.
Schniezel is able demonstrate how OoBK betray him by an excuse called Geass.
If it's worked well to OoBK, UFN is an easy task for him.
If he kill Schniezel, it'll justify that Schniezel is true.
If he geassing Schniezel, it won't make any differences but time that judged everything again.

If Lelouch is managed to live and being a good leader.
Will he be able to live without accusations ?
OoBK clearly judge him as the one who guilt. It's not an easy life.
Proving you're a good guy everyday, is that called life ?

If Brittania is still exist by his lead.
Will the world really change just by abolishing Numbers ? Will the war really ended ?
That's why the words is "Break the chain of hatred"
Making sure the new world have no accusations toward each other.

Lelouch said this in Ragnarok Connection,
"The world that Nunnally wants is a world without accusations toward each other."

He reached this by Zero Requiem.
As well as fulfilling Suzaku and Kallen wish as his main goal.

It's the Guidebook that the one said "the main goal is an atonement."
Lelouch who wants to live, atone his sins through death.
Suzaku who wants to die, atone his sins through live.

Until the very end, Suzaku still insists, "Are you really want to do this ?"
It's not about running away anymore.
At first, it maybe a coward's way.
But it comes into a good resolution, even after he knew Nunnally is still alive.

But still, the ends justify everything.

No one complaining about what happens to Mt. Fuji in CG realm.
It's Lelouch the Demon Emperor who destroy it. He's a demon. That's all.
If there's any excuse, everything will be wrote in a History book and explained through a History subject at school.

We-- the watchers are the one complaining because we knew that Sakuradite is supplying 70% worlds energy and luckily, we're not watching it in the battlefield itself

There's Schniezel out there.
Schniezel is able demonstrate how OoBK betray him by an excuse called Geass.
If it's worked well to OoBK, UFN is an easy task for him.
If he kill Schniezel, it'll justify that Schniezel is true.
If he geassing Schniezel, it won't make any differences but time that judged everything again.

Lelouch could just set the record straight very easily. Schneizel was able to fool the Black Knights with the help of that gullible idiot Ohgi and his dubious floozy, Villetta, while Lelouch was out. It also helped that neither Xing-ke nor Kaguya of the UFN were there, as they would have called BS on Schneizel, so the UFN is a non-example.

Quote:

If Lelouch is managed to live and being a good leader.
Will he be able to live without accusations ?
OoBK clearly judge him as the one who guilt. It's not an easy life.
Proving you're a good guy everyday, is that called life ?

It's as I mentioned. Lelouch could easily explain himself. Kaguya, for one, still trusted that he would do the right thing until he declared war on the UFN in Turn 22. Not to mention that many of the BKs themselves were anything but saints, as they proved with the betrayal, which they did behind the UFN's backs.

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If Brittania is still exist by his lead.
Will the world really change just by abolishing Numbers ? Will the war really ended ?
That's why the words is "Break the chain of hatred"
Making sure the new world have no accusations toward each other.

Now that's where Zero Requiem is a utopian load of bollocks. Human nature does not exist in a vacuum. People will find other reasons to fight against one another. Ozymandias tried that sort of thing in the Watchmen, and it only worked for like 6 years.

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Lelouch said this in Ragnarok Connection,
"The world that Nunnally wants is a world without accusations toward each other."

He reached this by Zero Requiem.
As well as fulfilling Suzaku and Kallen wish as his main goal.

It's the Guidebook that the one said "the main goal is an atonement."
Lelouch who wants to live, atone his sins through death.
Suzaku who wants to die, atone his sins through live.

Until the very end, Suzaku still insists, "Are you really want to do this ?"
It's not about running away anymore.
At first, it maybe a coward's way.
But it comes into a good resolution, even after he knew Nunnally is still alive.

But still, the ends justify everything.

No one complaining about what happens to Mt. Fuji in CG realm.
It's Lelouch the Demon Emperor who destroy it. He's a demon. That's all.
If there's any excuse, everything will be wrote in a History book and explained through a History subject at school.

We-- the watchers are the one complaining because we knew that Sakuradite is supplying 70% worlds energy and luckily, we're not watching it in the battlefield itself

There's a trope for what happened with Mt. Fuji, and it's called No Endor Holocaust. By all rights the detonation should have killed many lives and caused a ton of environmental destruction across Japan. We don't see anyone complaining because the story handwaves it.

If you read Mutuality, you'll see that he was despondent over Nunnally's apparent demise. Also, and this is important, when Suzaku asks him whether there are other methods for taking care of Schneizel and achieving peace, he confirms that there are. The atonement through death simply doesn't make sense because of everything he's doing to get there, from brainwashing mooks, putting masks on them and treating them as cannon fodder. He also assassinated many rebelling families, who C. C. noted had a right to object to him taking their status away. All of this was far worse than what Lelouch was supposedly atoning for.

Not to mention, of course, that unsatisfyingly, people responsible for either the betrayal or the strife that he was trying to STOP, such as Ohgi, Villetta and Cornelia, walked away with reasonably happy endings.

Right, but Lelouch was talking about how his past was shaping his descision and actions. That really has nothing to do with anything I believe.

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Originally Posted by Tactics

And C.C. clothes during that scene ( seeing Suzaku and Lelouch as child ) is a clothes that only shown as the series progress, especially in World of C event.

As a side note, C.C. won't get those clothes without getting captured, as shown by Kallen as she's being captured after China Arc.

I think this pic speaks for itself...

Spoiler for Large image:

In the World of C event she is wearing the darker black/purple color version of the clothes she is captured in. As you can see that isn't what she is wearing in the first episode. She is wearing (close to ) the same color, but you can plainly see one of those waist sash belt things (don't know the name) and a sunflower on the side. Nowhere else (that I remember) is she wearing that.

In in the World of C event she also is wearing a sort of black knight unifrom, which again is nowhere near what she is wearing in ep 1.

Spoiler for Large Image:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tactics

What i meant is ...

Nunnally clearly lose the FLEIJA Launcher when the Damocles is trembling.
She's trying as hard as she can to find the Launcher.

Why she's shocked as her head is moving to where the Launcher is located ?
Why she's holding the Launcher when she met Lelouch.

Draw your own conclusion

Ahh. Yea I never meant to say she didn't regain it. It's obvious that she got it back there. I get what you're saying now and I'm not saying she didn't "get it back" then/ My whole thing is more so about precisely when she got it back. Under my theory she just realized it then, but technically had it back for a little before hand. She just didn't know it because of what I was saying before.

Quote:

Originally Posted by azul120

Lelouch could just set the record straight very easily. Schneizel was able to fool the Black Knights with the help of that gullible idiot Ohgi and his dubious floozy, Villetta, while Lelouch was out. It also helped that neither Xing-ke nor Kaguya of the UFN were there, as they would have called BS on Schneizel, so the UFN is a non-example.

It's as I mentioned. Lelouch could easily explain himself. Kaguya, for one, still trusted that he would do the right thing until he declared war on the UFN in Turn 22. Not to mention that many of the BKs themselves were anything but saints, as they proved with the betrayal, which they did behind the UFN's backs.

Easily? How? Schneizel has a recording of Lelouch saying he used Geass. He'd have to play a huge PR campaign as Zero, when the Black Knights have forsaken him. Don't you think that that would be a huge hurt? He was the CEO/Leader of them, and they shunned him.

His only option would be to use Geass on Xing-Ke and Kaguya and other UFN members to win them over to his cause and declare the OotBK rebels. But then who will able to bring them to "justice"? Don't forget that to join the UFN countries had to disband their armies.

Kaguya may have trusted him some, but she was still being cautious as she didn't know what was going and what to expect. She also did buy into the Geass thing as evidenced by the fact that she took precautions so that no one could be Geassed by him.

As for the BK not being saints... while that is true, where is the betrayal you're talking about? Do you mean joining forces with Schneizel? How does that betray the UFN? They were still a "private company" and if they wanted to go try to kill Lelouch it's not like that was going against something the UFN said. Nor were they keen on attacking Lelouch's flagship because there were representatives from the UFN on it.. Schneizel was the one pushing for that, and he made them obey his commands to prevent him from doing that.

Or do you mean them turning on Lelouch was the betrayal? 99.9% of the members of it didn't know Lelouch was Zero and thought Zero died in battle. They were just dutiful soldiers following orders. Ohgi and the higher ups were the ones who "betrayed" him, but they had a valid reason to as he was being secretive and they didn't know if their actions were their own or not. Granted if they were Geassed they shouldn't have been able to think about betraying him, so that is proof they weren't... if they were thinking. But for the bulk of the order they knew nothing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by azul120

Now that's where Zero Requiem is a utopian load of bollocks. Human nature does not exist in a vacuum. People will find other reasons to fight against one another.

While I will agree with that to an extent, that wasn't the biggest point of Zero Requiem. Zero Requiem was done to bring peace to the countries and stop all the wars that were between countries. That doesn't mean there wont be rebels still or things like that. But wars between countries should be stopped. They saw how bad it could be/get, and don't want to go back to that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by azul120

Also, and this is important, when Suzaku asks him whether there are other methods for taking care of Schneizel and achieving peace, he confirms that there are. The atonement through death simply doesn't make sense because of everything he's doing to get there, from brainwashing mooks, putting masks on them and treating them as cannon fodder. He also assassinated many rebelling families, who C. C. noted had a right to object to him taking their status away. All of this was far worse than what Lelouch was supposedly atoning for.

The death thing still makes sense with everything he did to get there. That was also part of what he was trying to atone for. Using the people as cannon fodder, the assassinations (which tbh I don't remember, but I know he demoted a lot... and I know Schneizel used FLEIJA on the capitol with everyone still there... but whatever), etc. That was part of what he was atoning for. He wanted to create a sea of blood so that the "Massacre Princess" event would be forgotten or viewed as nothing. By giving peace to the world he makes it so they didn't die in vain.

There were other methods, but maybe they weren't as effective or took longer. Or maybe he chose the death one because of what he thought about Nunnally being dead and stuff. By the time he learned she was alive he was already committed so had to complete it. He couldn't change things, he was already walking down the path of blood and he couldn't suddenly go "oh, I'm actually a nice guy" and try to start a new path.

I bet a lot of the other paths may have involved staying Zero and turning the OotBK into villains are you were saying above. But he went and (publically on world wide tv) admitted to killing his father and then proceded to Geass a ton of people... those who knew about the possibility of Geass (Kaguya, Xing-Ke, etc) now had proof it was true. What else could explain the sudden change. No, he HAD to stay on the path. He couldn't change now.

Easily? How? Schneizel has a recording of Lelouch saying he used Geass. He'd have to play a huge PR campaign as Zero, when the Black Knights have forsaken him. Don't you think that that would be a huge hurt? He was the CEO/Leader of them, and they shunned him.

His only option would be to use Geass on Xing-Ke and Kaguya and other UFN members to win them over to his cause and declare the OotBK rebels. But then who will able to bring them to "justice"? Don't forget that to join the UFN countries had to disband their armies.[/QUOTE]

The quote Schneizel used was a recording of the words "I gave the order", which, as Tamaki noted, could have been anyone. Beyond that, said recording was a selective Quote Mining of the conversation, and regarding those words, Suzaku notes that Lelouch was lying about giving Euphie the geass command.

Either way, Lelouch could have requested, as Emperor, a private meeting with the UFN and the Black Knights in order to demonstrate the limits of his Geass and clarify his usage of it. If they were to refuse him, they would be considered at fault.

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Kaguya may have trusted him some, but she was still being cautious as she didn't know what was going and what to expect. She also did buy into the Geass thing as evidenced by the fact that she took precautions so that no one could be Geassed by him.

That much is understandable, but she still did seem to be more reasonable about it than the others. When she had been taken hostage, she was in tears, which pretty much speaks volumes about how she felt.

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As for the BK not being saints... while that is true, where is the betrayal you're talking about? Do you mean joining forces with Schneizel? How does that betray the UFN? They were still a "private company" and if they wanted to go try to kill Lelouch it's not like that was going against something the UFN said. Nor were they keen on attacking Lelouch's flagship because there were representatives from the UFN on it.. Schneizel was the one pushing for that, and he made them obey his commands to prevent him from doing that.

Or do you mean them turning on Lelouch was the betrayal? 99.9% of the members of it didn't know Lelouch was Zero and thought Zero died in battle. They were just dutiful soldiers following orders. Ohgi and the higher ups were the ones who "betrayed" him, but they had a valid reason to as he was being secretive and they didn't know if their actions were their own or not. Granted if they were Geassed they shouldn't have been able to think about betraying him, so that is proof they weren't... if they were thinking. But for the bulk of the order they knew nothing.

I'm referring to the latter. And the reason I'm calling out Ohgi in particular is because he led the charge, and he was using Lelouch as a bargaining chip for Japan, among the following forms of hypocrisy: using Kallen as bait to draw out Lelouch even though he hates the idea of using people as pawns; abandoning the UFN with the under the table deal of Japan, which negates any right he had to complain about being abandoned during the Black Rebellion; and earlier on, abandoning his position in the Black Knights to meet with Villetta who he knew was planning on killing him, which also contradicts his complaints about Lelouch abandoning the Black Rebellion; and finally, any of them having issues with Lelouch being an exiled prince and recruiting Britannian help, even though they take the word of the most notorious Britannian royal himself, Schneizel, as well as Villetta, a Brittannian spy who Ohgi was seeing behind their backs even though she tried to kill him, and had already crippled him during the Black Rebellion.

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While I will agree with that to an extent, that wasn't the biggest point of Zero Requiem. Zero Requiem was done to bring peace to the countries and stop all the wars that were between countries. That doesn't mean there wont be rebels still or things like that. But wars between countries should be stopped. They saw how bad it could be/get, and don't want to go back to that.

True enough, but that makes the plan even more of a waste when you think about it. The process involves an Inferred Holocaust, as well as the death of Lelouch, who would be more useful to the world if he were to live on as a leader and offer his expertise. The inevitable return of conflict will make the Requiem a Shaggy Dog Story.

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The death thing still makes sense with everything he did to get there. That was also part of what he was trying to atone for. Using the people as cannon fodder, the assassinations (which tbh I don't remember, but I know he demoted a lot... and I know Schneizel used FLEIJA on the capitol with everyone still there... but whatever), etc. That was part of what he was atoning for. He wanted to create a sea of blood so that the "Massacre Princess" event would be forgotten or viewed as nothing. By giving peace to the world he makes it so they didn't die in vain.

Here's the thing: he didn't even have to do any of that in the first place! He was intentionally digging his grave because he wanted an excuse to die. He could have explained that the Massacre Princess incident happened because of an impostor.

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There were other methods, but maybe they weren't as effective or took longer. Or maybe he chose the death one because of what he thought about Nunnally being dead and stuff. By the time he learned she was alive he was already committed so had to complete it. He couldn't change things, he was already walking down the path of blood and he couldn't suddenly go "oh, I'm actually a nice guy" and try to start a new path.

The Nunnally part would be the more accurate explanation, in combination with everything else, including the betrayal, which was pretty much the Despair Event Horizon for him. (Prior to that, there was one last Hope Spot when Kallen managed to talk him into coming with her to the warehouse.)

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I bet a lot of the other paths may have involved staying Zero and turning the OotBK into villains are you were saying above. But he went and (publically on world wide tv) admitted to killing his father and then proceded to Geass a ton of people... those who knew about the possibility of Geass (Kaguya, Xing-Ke, etc) now had proof it was true. What else could explain the sudden change. No, he HAD to stay on the path. He couldn't change now.

No. He could have simply returned to the Black Knights and the UFN and explained everything, with Suzaku guarding him. He could have even chosen to be a good emperor if he wanted.

There are a couple of decent For Want of a Nail fanfics in the works by a writer called karndragon: Changing Course and Lelouch vi Britannia the 99th Emperor. The former is a what if scenario of Lelouch being saved from the betrayal by an OC instead of Rolo, and manages to secure Nunnally with his help, keeping him from the path of the Zero Requiem. The latter fic picks up from the latter part of Turn 21, only with Lelouch deciding to be a good emperor in memory of the ones he lost (or thought he did, in Nunnally's case).

The quote Schneizel used was a recording of the words "I gave the order", which, as Tamaki noted, could have been anyone. Beyond that, said recording was a selective Quote Mining of the conversation, and regarding those words, Suzaku notes that Lelouch was lying about giving Euphie the geass command.

Ok, I'll give you that. But I still don't think that changes the outcome. Enough people knew about Geass by then by to be worried about it and wonder at its power. Also, there isn't much wrong with selective quote mining when it still gives the truth. If you can get the point across in 10 words you don't need to use 100.

In terms of lying, while it is true he was lying about it, he was only lying about the reason he did. I think that is the lie that Suzaku picked up on, as by then he knew all about Geass and there is no other way Euphy could have a change of heart.

Quote:

Originally Posted by azul120

Either way, Lelouch could have requested, as Emperor, a private meeting with the UFN and the Black Knights in order to demonstrate the limits of his Geass and clarify his usage of it. If they were to refuse him, they would be considered at fault.

By then his reputation was already being torn to shreds and not many people trusted him. Look at what happened at the school when he did the "peace meeting" thing. Kallen was saying to kill her if they thought he used his Geass on her. They made countermeasures so they couldn't be Geassed. Do you really think they would be willing to sit down and talk with him? And let someone be Geassed just so he could prove a point? Especially given his past and how he pulled things that people thought impossible by using it. No, the risk is just too great.

Also why would he want them to know how his main weapon worked? He had a GREAT chance to tell Kallen about his Geass and how it worked in the second episode of R2, and he says jack to her about it. Look at how loyal she was already, if he had just spilled the beans about how he Geassed her at school to find out if she was at the ghetto and learned that you could only use it once... Well truth be told she'd probably be dead as I doubt she'd have even asked Lelouch about that thing when he got called to the hanger. And Lelouch only said what he said then because he thought he was going to die and didn't want her to die too.

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Originally Posted by azul120

I'm referring to the latter. And the reason I'm calling out Ohgi in particular is because he led the charge, and he was using Lelouch as a bargaining chip for Japan, among the following forms of hypocrisy: using Kallen as bait to draw out Lelouch even though he hates the idea of using people as pawns; abandoning the UFN with the under the table deal of Japan, which negates any right he had to complain about being abandoned during the Black Rebellion; and earlier on, abandoning his position in the Black Knights to meet with Villetta who he knew was planning on killing him, which also contradicts his complaints about Lelouch abandoning the Black Rebellion; and finally, any of them having issues with Lelouch being an exiled prince and recruiting Britannian help, even though they take the word of the most notorious Britannian royal himself, Schneizel, as well as Villetta, a Brittannian spy who Ohgi was seeing behind their backs even though she tried to kill him, and had already crippled him during the Black Rebellion.

While you do have some valid points, was making the deal for Japan really going against the UFN though? The Black Knights were sent by the UFN to free Japan from Britannia. Though it was thought it was going to be a military conquest, the results would have been (were?) the same by selling out Lelouch. The Black Knights got Japan back from Britannia. I don't see how that betrays the UFN at all. Lelouch, yes. The UFN, no.

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Originally Posted by azul120

Here's the thing: he didn't even have to do any of that in the first place! He was intentionally digging his grave because he wanted an excuse to die. He could have explained that the Massacre Princess incident happened because of an impostor.

How could he have explained an imposter cause the Massacre Princess incident if he is explaining his Geass and it's power though? Ignoring the "confession", look at everything Euphy was giving up for it to happen. Also what reason would the Britannia have for pulling an elaborate ruse like that and then ordering the death of every (not just in the zone) Japanese there is?

Sorry to say, but I just don't see how Lelouch could talk his way out of that. He could maybe Geass his way out, but if he's explaining his Geass already as part of being nice and all that... Geass makes people do anything. What other reason could there be for the sudden change of heart.

Then you also have the fact that with how smart Zero was (granted no one knew his true identity then) and what he did it would be near impossible for someone to impersonate him and cause that incident. Especially with the radical change in Euphy which can really only be explained by Geass.

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Originally Posted by azul120

No. He could have simply returned to the Black Knights and the UFN and explained everything, with Suzaku guarding him. He could have even chosen to be a good emperor if he wanted.

There are a couple of decent For Want of a Nail fanfics in the works by a writer called karndragon: Changing Course and Lelouch vi Britannia the 99th Emperor. The former is a what if scenario of Lelouch being saved from the betrayal by an OC instead of Rolo, and manages to secure Nunnally with his help, keeping him from the path of the Zero Requiem. The latter fic picks up from the latter part of Turn 21, only with Lelouch deciding to be a good emperor in memory of the ones he lost (or thought he did, in Nunnally's case).

The nice thing about fanfics is they can bend the lore and warp things and explain things away THEIR way all they want. That doesn't mean it's true or fits in with what actually happened in the series. For example, by what you said the first basically throws out half the series in terms of events and lore and what happened. That can't even be (nor am I saying you're saying it is) consider close to canon. The second may be a little closer since you say it starts in 21, but that still probably throws away a lot of things that happened and characters attitudes and stuff like that.

Yes, small actions can make a big change in events. But that doesn't mean that the events, and mindset behind the events that did actually happen, can be dismissed. Especially with someone as smart as Lelouch. Look at Mao and what kind of insight he can give on Lelouch's brain... 14 (or something) possibilities on who he was in a split second given VERY little information. Thinking about a ton of things at once to try to confuse him. Not to mention how many times did Lelouch say something about there being multiple courses of action in a lot of different things. You have to imagine he thought out what would happen if he did various things.

But it doesn't proved enough that she's ( C.C. ) really watching them before.
They could've meet somewhere-- because Lelouch spent his time hiding in Kururugi Shrine.

I remembered there's a lot of things changed from the main story.
Like Suzaku's connection with Geass, Kallen's plot, even how the 25th episode of S1 should ended.
Maybe it was a part of it.

Let's see how Shikkoku no Renya handle those things

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Originally Posted by Cynor

Also why would he want them to know how his main weapon worked? He had a GREAT chance to tell Kallen about his Geass and how it worked in the second episode of R2, and he says jack to her about it. Look at how loyal she was already, if he had just spilled the beans about how he Geassed her at school to find out if she was at the ghetto and learned that you could only use it once... Well truth be told she'd probably be dead as I doubt she'd have even asked Lelouch about that thing when he got called to the hanger. And Lelouch only said what he said then because he thought he was going to die and didn't want her to die too.

Actually, Kallen is already knew about his Geass from C.C during time skip.

If not, she won't ask about, "Did you use your Geass to bind my will?"
That's enough clue-- especially by the fact that she spent most of her time to learn about Lelouch from C.C.

It's not because she's loyal.
At first, she needed him as Zero who guided them ( R2 Turn 7 )
Later, it turned to be something beyond devotion as she stated on her poem.

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Originally Posted by azul120

If you read Mutuality, you'll see that he was despondent over Nunnally's apparent demise. Also, and this is important, when Suzaku asks him whether there are other methods for taking care of Schneizel and achieving peace, he confirms that there are. The atonement through death simply doesn't make sense because of everything he's doing to get there, from brainwashing mooks, putting masks on them and treating them as cannon fodder. He also assassinated many rebelling families, who C. C. noted had a right to object to him taking their status away. All of this was far worse than what Lelouch was supposedly atoning for.

Not to mention, of course, that unsatisfyingly, people responsible for either the betrayal or the strife that he was trying to STOP, such as Ohgi, Villetta and Cornelia, walked away with reasonably happy endings.

I did read Mutuality before.
I also hated about Lelouch idea for there's no other way.

But the Complete Guide noted this on Suzaku's page :
"For the fact that he can atone for his sins through Zero's mask. As the results of fulfilling his own wish."

Kallen's page :
"Kallen realizes his thoughts for her- The little wish known as ‘I’d like you to fulfill your own dreams’.”

After reading those line, for me, the reason why he chose Zero Requiem over Nunnally become reasonable.
He'd rather choose to fulfill all of his pillars wishes rather than living with just to lose all of his pillars after losing all of his important people.

The ZR also playing this in the following order,
Spent the last romance moment with Kallen ( Turn 22 )
Spent the last friendship moment with Suzaku ( Turn 25 )
Spent the last brother moment with Nunnally ( Turn 25 )

It's impossible to evade Ougi, Viletta, and Cornelia huh ?

I don't mind with Cornelia.
Her foolishness is limited by the similar mindframe called Euphimia, just like Suzaku.
The differences is, Suzaku learned and accept the truth, and Cornelia is learned but denying the truth.

Ougi and Viletta ?
I don't mind with their relationship during S1. Because it's natural.
But well--- R2 really make me angst by the fact :

- Accepting Schniezel to invade OoBK mindframe ( He's your enemy-- why he manufacturing the FLEIJA if it's not to eliminating all of you )
- Playing "I'm a victim, so i have enough reason to betray him" ( It's Lelouch who gave you that uniform and pride )
- Sent Kallen as a bait and almost kill her in process ( She's Naoto sister, your friends little sister-- Even you forgot about her during the time when she's captured just by Viletta cases )
- Trade Lelouch for Japan ( It's the same thing with trading UFN with Japan, are you an idiot ? I'm understand if it's Kaguya, but Todo to share this mindframe, WTF )
- There's a flying fortress as a nuclear station. And you're allowing this even for just a one battle ? Especially knowing there's enough time to learn that Pendragon is already dissapeared from the map ?! Or also to learn that Lelouch army is a lot weaker compared to yours ?

Too bad Mt. Fuji eruption failed to kill him.
But at least, he's located at the smallest and the furthest picture from the center on Kallen's board, not even his wedding picture located there.
I'm satisfied enough with the fact that even one of the main characters who knew him didn't really appreciate his happiness

Ok, I'll give you that. But I still don't think that changes the outcome. Enough people knew about Geass by then by to be worried about it and wonder at its power. Also, there isn't much wrong with selective quote mining when it still gives the truth. If you can get the point across in 10 words you don't need to use 100.

In terms of lying, while it is true he was lying about it, he was only lying about the reason he did. I think that is the lie that Suzaku picked up on, as by then he knew all about Geass and there is no other way Euphy could have a change of heart.

Truth? Everyone was led to believe Lelouch deliberately geassed Euphie into killing the Japanese (this is what Lelouch lied about) when in reality it was an accident brought on by an off-hand comment made the very moment Lelouch's geass became permanent..

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By then his reputation was already being torn to shreds and not many people trusted him. Look at what happened at the school when he did the "peace meeting" thing. Kallen was saying to kill her if they thought he used his Geass on her. They made countermeasures so they couldn't be Geassed. Do you really think they would be willing to sit down and talk with him? And let someone be Geassed just so he could prove a point? Especially given his past and how he pulled things that people thought impossible by using it. No, the risk is just too great.

You're jumping to conclusions. They could have their little talk with the aforementioned countermeasures, and have someone willfully volunteer for Lelouch to deemonstrate how his Geass works. And lastly, he could geass himself to truthfully answer any questions they might have.

If they were to not accept this, then that would demonstrate how callow they would be, given how they cooperated with Schneizel.

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Also why would he want them to know how his main weapon worked? He had a GREAT chance to tell Kallen about his Geass and how it worked in the second episode of R2, and he says jack to her about it. Look at how loyal she was already, if he had just spilled the beans about how he Geassed her at school to find out if she was at the ghetto and learned that you could only use it once... Well truth be told she'd probably be dead as I doubt she'd have even asked Lelouch about that thing when he got called to the hanger. And Lelouch only said what he said then because he thought he was going to die and didn't want her to die too.

He told her that all of her choices were her own. That's pretty much all she needed to know. She was the only member of the Black Knights who knew his identity to begin with, let alone know about geass. Lelouch told her that her loyalty and choices were her own, and that's all she needed to know to the extent she wasn't being used. (She probably already had an idea from her year with C. C.) The Black Knights on the other hand were ready to shoot Lelouch on sight because of what they suspected. This was even more evident in the fact that they were ready to take Kallen down with him because she was suspected of being under Geass. That is why Lelouch KNEW he had no chance of survival, so he had to lie in order to have Kallen spared.

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While you do have some valid points, was making the deal for Japan really going against the UFN though? The Black Knights were sent by the UFN to free Japan from Britannia. Though it was thought it was going to be a military conquest, the results would have been (were?) the same by selling out Lelouch. The Black Knights got Japan back from Britannia. I don't see how that betrays the UFN at all. Lelouch, yes. The UFN, no.

It DOES betray the UFN, not only because they're doing it behind their backs, but also because it's part of a ceasefire, practically leaving the rest of the member nations out to dry. The UFN did send them to free Japan, yes, but the rest of the world was the ultimate goal.

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How could he have explained an imposter cause the Massacre Princess incident if he is explaining his Geass and it's power though? Ignoring the "confession", look at everything Euphy was giving up for it to happen. Also what reason would the Britannia have for pulling an elaborate ruse like that and then ordering the death of every (not just in the zone) Japanese there is?

Sorry to say, but I just don't see how Lelouch could talk his way out of that. He could maybe Geass his way out, but if he's explaining his Geass already as part of being nice and all that... Geass makes people do anything. What other reason could there be for the sudden change of heart.

Then you also have the fact that with how smart Zero was (granted no one knew his true identity then) and what he did it would be near impossible for someone to impersonate him and cause that incident. Especially with the radical change in Euphy which can really only be explained by Geass.[/QUOTE]

I'm talking about the public, who he wouldn't be explaining Geass to. As far as everyone knew, Euphy reappeared completely contrary to her normal self.

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The nice thing about fanfics is they can bend the lore and warp things and explain things away THEIR way all they want. That doesn't mean it's true or fits in with what actually happened in the series. For example, by what you said the first basically throws out half the series in terms of events and lore and what happened. That can't even be (nor am I saying you're saying it is) consider close to canon. The second may be a little closer since you say it starts in 21, but that still probably throws away a lot of things that happened and characters attitudes and stuff like that.

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Yes, small actions can make a big change in events. But that doesn't mean that the events, and mindset behind the events that did actually happen, can be dismissed. Especially with someone as smart as Lelouch. Look at Mao and what kind of insight he can give on Lelouch's brain... 14 (or something) possibilities on who he was in a split second given VERY little information. Thinking about a ton of things at once to try to confuse him. Not to mention how many times did Lelouch say something about there being multiple courses of action in a lot of different things. You have to imagine he thought out what would happen if he did various things.

That depends on what was taken and further established in a certain way. Changing Course didn't really throw out as much as you say it did.

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Originally Posted by Tactics

I did read Mutuality before.
I also hated about Lelouch idea for there's no other way.

Yeah. That really made me question the validity of the Zero Requiem.

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After reading those line, for me, the reason why he chose Zero Requiem over Nunnally become reasonable.
He'd rather choose to fulfill all of his pillars wishes rather than living with just to lose all of his pillars after losing all of his important people.

He was already in too deep when he learned Nunnally was still alive. Which is ironic because Nunnally's apparent demise was one of the crucial events that incited the Zero Requiem in the first place.

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It's impossible to evade Ougi, Viletta, and Cornelia huh ?

I don't mind with Cornelia.
Her foolishness is limited by the similar mindframe called Euphimia, just like Suzaku.
The differences is, Suzaku learned and accept the truth, and Cornelia is learned but denying the truth.

Not just that, but she never really atones or repents for her sins. And really, she's no better than Lelouch for what she's done in- and pre-canon.

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Ougi and Viletta ?
I don't mind with their relationship during S1. Because it's natural.

Perhaps, but that relationship caused Ohgi to abandon all rationality and make these really bad decisions: shot by Villetta during the Black Rebellion, goes AWOL to see her mid-R2 when he knows she plans on killing her, and inciting the betrayal in Turn 19 when no one else is buying into Schneizel's claims. And not only does he not get called out for his secret relationship with Villetta, an enemy spy, he is even allowed to take her onboard. Whereas Lelouch is punished for his similar irrationality related to Nunnally, Ohgi is rewarded for it.

As for Villetta, well, she mostly sought nobility, to which effect she did the following: she used Shirley, who was heavily traumatized, in order to capture Zero, she was part of the spy detail watching over Lelouch in R2 for her knowledge of Geass and identity as Zero, and even following her exposure to Lelouch in later episodes (including him telling her he didn't want Shirley involved anymore), she has the nerve to testify against Lelouch on Ohgi's supposed behalf even though she should supposedly know Geass isn't as dangerous as was being insinuated. And naturally of course, she's taken in by the Black Knights with Ohgi's assistance, basically coasting, while doing nothing. And she was part of the Purist Faction to boot.

That the both of them get the happiest ending in spite of all of this makes them almost as infuriating as Jay Leno.

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But well--- R2 really make me angst by the fact :

- Accepting Schniezel to invade OoBK mindframe ( He's your enemy-- why he manufacturing the FLEIJA if it's not to eliminating all of you )

Divide and conquer.

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- Playing "I'm a victim, so i have enough reason to betray him" ( It's Lelouch who gave you that uniform and pride )

I'd say Villetta was the one playing the "victim" card, haha.

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- Sent Kallen as a bait and almost kill her in process ( She's Naoto sister, your friends little sister-- Even you forgot about her during the time when she's captured just by Viletta cases )
- Trade Lelouch for Japan ( It's the same thing with trading UFN with Japan, are you an idiot ? I'm understand if it's Kaguya, but Todo to share this mindframe, WTF )

Word. Both cases of sheer hypocrisy.

Kaguya herself was too smart too fall for that kind of a ruse, which was evidently why she was kept out of the discussion. Ditto Xing-ke.

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- There's a flying fortress as a nuclear station. And you're allowing this even for just a one battle ? Especially knowing there's enough time to learn that Pendragon is already dissapeared from the map ?! Or also to learn that Lelouch army is a lot weaker compared to yours ?

Exactly. They never gave any good reason for Lelouch to loaf around while Schneizel had his window of opportunity in that month.

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Too bad Mt. Fuji eruption failed to kill him.
But at least, he's located at the smallest and the furthest picture from the center on Kallen's board, not even his wedding picture located there.
I'm satisfied enough with the fact that even one of the main characters who knew him didn't really appreciate his happiness

Haha.
It disturbs me that he and Villetta get to start a family, while Lelouch, who had to carry a whole lot of the weight, dies a virgin. In my fanfic idea, Ohgi and Villetta are both taken into custody and eternal servitude by Zerozaku, their child is adopted by Kallen, who has assumed the surname Lamperouge, and renamed Shirley. And the rewritten birth story? She's the child of Kallen and Lelouch "Lamperouge", conceived not long before the death of the latter, who perished in the Mt. Fuji explosion. Poetic, no?

But it doesn't proved enough that she's ( C.C. ) really watching them before.
They could've meet somewhere-- because Lelouch spent his time hiding in Kururugi Shrine.

I'll admit it's hard to say for sure that she was really watching them. They could have randomly met somewhere for sure, but considering her connection to Marriane it isn't that far a stretch to say she was.

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Originally Posted by Tactics

Actually, Kallen is already knew about his Geass from C.C during time skip.

If not, she won't ask about, "Did you use your Geass to bind my will?"
That's enough clue-- especially by the fact that she spent most of her time to learn about Lelouch from C.C.

I don't think anyone can even come close to deny she knew about Geass.. the question I was posing was how much. We were talking about full disclosure on how it works (500m range, reflection, can only be used once on someone, etc) and I was saying that Lelouch probably wouldn't want all that known. You don't want other to know how exactly your main weapon works in war, and he was in a war...

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Originally Posted by azul120

It DOES betray the UFN, not only because they're doing it behind their backs, but also because it's part of a ceasefire, practically leaving the rest of the member nations out to dry. The UFN did send them to free Japan, yes, but the rest of the world was the ultimate goal.

How is behind their backs? It's not like the UFN said (that we know of) "and don't listen to anything they say, fight to the last!" It was a MILITARY operation by a THIRD PARTY who were CONTRACTED to do something. As far as we know the HOW was totally up to them to figure out. If the commander thinks a ceasefire is a good idea (especially given what happened) it isn't like he needs to ask his superiors... he is the one in ultimate command.

Where does he leave the other member nations out to dry also? They have no military power there (or anywhere) as to join the UFN they had to give it up. It's not like he pulled the BK back and let the Chinese Fed. army keep fighting...

I can maybe buy/understand the thought that in other areas they may be left hanging except for two things:

1. Given how the Britannia Army operates it was probably only over Area 11 that there was a ceasefire. So if the BK had any units elsewhere they would still defend the areas they were stationed in.

2. If indeed all the BK strength was in Area 11 then they had already "betrayed" the UFN by not leaving a token defense force or something behind. But you have to figure the UFN had already known that and was ok with it.

I understand that you want to paint Lelouch in a good light and most others are evil I can even sympathize with that as I don't think anyone would argue that Lelouch didn't get the short end of the stick and the betrayal of the BK was in bad tastes. That they didn't even give Lelouch a chance to argue his case was bad, especially given all he had done for them.

That doesn't make them out to be the "super evil omg they all need to go die in fire" people that (the way I read it) you're making them out to be though. I'm not trying to say they were saints, again they definitely weren't. But if you take a step back from "omg villain, don't care about them" attitude you can see why they did what they did. You can also see that some things you're trying to lay the blame on them for (like betraying the UFN) may be more a product of hatred for them.

Lelouch kept secrets and did things that people questioned. Even though he didn't think that they would get out, they did. Todo found out about the slaughter at the Order thing, and without context (and since no one knew about Geass...) that looks very VERY bad. He was keeping Corneillia locked up in secret on board the flagship too. Then what Villetta knew about him and told Ohgi... I bet she told him all about how he Geassed her, blackmailed her into helping him on school, etc. Again, those things look very bad. Then find out that he (and whether he meant to or not he did) ordered the death of lots of Japanese people to try to rally people to cause... He was supposed to be freeing them, not murdering them.

I don't think anyone can even come close to deny she knew about Geass.. the question I was posing was how much. We were talking about full disclosure on how it works (500m range, reflection, can only be used once on someone, etc) and I was saying that Lelouch probably wouldn't want all that known. You don't want other to know how exactly your main weapon works in war, and he was in a war...

Look carefully when Lelouch, C.C., and Kallen having talk after regaining the OoBK main forces.
Lelouch didn't have any problems showing his Geass to her.
She didn't accused Lelouch for showing his Geass too.

She knew that Lelouch is a liar who uses OoBK for his own advantages, she also understand his mindset clearly enough to find him in Shinjuku. If she didn't understand the limitation, how she can keep herself calm until Lelouch tease her ?

( I really like when Lelouch start to share a fun moment with her )

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Originally Posted by Cynor

I understand that you want to paint Lelouch in a good light and most others are evil I can even sympathize with that as I don't think anyone would argue that Lelouch didn't get the short end of the stick and the betrayal of the BK was in bad tastes. That they didn't even give Lelouch a chance to argue his case was bad, especially given all he had done for them.

That doesn't make them out to be the "super evil omg they all need to go die in fire" people that (the way I read it) you're making them out to be though. I'm not trying to say they were saints, again they definitely weren't. But if you take a step back from "omg villain, don't care about them" attitude you can see why they did what they did. You can also see that some things you're trying to lay the blame on them for (like betraying the UFN) may be more a product of hatred for them.

Lelouch kept secrets and did things that people questioned. Even though he didn't think that they would get out, they did. Todo found out about the slaughter at the Order thing, and without context (and since no one knew about Geass...) that looks very VERY bad. He was keeping Corneillia locked up in secret on board the flagship too. Then what Villetta knew about him and told Ohgi... I bet she told him all about how he Geassed her, blackmailed her into helping him on school, etc. Again, those things look very bad. Then find out that he (and whether he meant to or not he did) ordered the death of lots of Japanese people to try to rally people to cause... He was supposed to be freeing them, not murdering them.

Just in cases.
I never really want to paint Lelouch in a good light.

Look at how he value others after what had he done to Shirley in S1, he clearly told C.C. and Kallen that he won't give up taking the path of carnage even after he learns about the consequences (at least, he's trying to spare Kallen from that fate--despite being his trump card, which make him more "human"). I can't really say Lelouch is a good guy after all. The same rules applied to Suzaku also.

I can't say that Lelouch kept secret from everyone is wrong.
Look at Lelouch itself, what'll happens if everyone know that he's an exiled Brittania Prince, especially when he leads an anti-Brittania resistance, including the fact that his only goal is to form a gentle world for his sister--a very selfish and childish thought.

The trade-off is Zero identity with their victory.

If there's something wrong.
What exactly wrong is what happens to OoBK itself.

After they learn about his identity, his Geass, and even his background, they never really tried to talk to him first.
They acted like they're already a winner after learns about their leaders secret and mistake.
Without even realizing how far they've got through if it's not because of him.
They didn't even think the consequences of throwing OoBK into a vacuum of power.

Look at Kallen, she asked first before trying to kill him in Babel Tower.
She's understand enough, if it's not because of him, they would'nt go that far.
And, it's granted. He answered her question because she convinced him enough to make sure he's able to take the responsibility for the better future.

Compare it to what happened during Turn 19 of R2.
Preparing spotlight, a camera to make sure everyone learns his death, a lot of machine guns, ignoring fact that Kallen is still there--used as a bait because they know he's concerned enough about her, and also the fact that they've traded him for Japan when his existence is needed by UFN, the largest scale of world's peace. Seems like they've no responsibilities about what'll happened later.

That's irrational, especially when you realized the one who motivated Ougi to take the coup d' etat is Viletta. It's not "I should accuse him from blackmailing my girlfriend." anymore, it's turned into "My girlfriend is a victim, everything he had done is must be wrong." Viletta playing a "I'm a victim" card, when Lelouch is actually the one who granted her wish to met Ougi and even save his life before getting executed by Guilford.

This is getting crazier during the final battle.

Ougi : "Look Zero, if we take this together, we can defeat you."
Seems like he only pleased by the fact that he's able to defeat Zero.

Todo : "The moment you accept the lead, that's the moment you accept the ideals"
If you're this smart, doesn't this mean the moment you accept Schniezel, is also the moment you legalize FLEIJA. WTH !

Xing-ke, he started with a praise "Just like Lelouch and Suzaku in one person."
But during the final battle, he's turned into a mindless lolicon who doesn't seem to care about FLEIJA being spammed through the entire battle. When it clearly showed that even Kallen is confused about that FLEIJA is being spammed.

He's also ignoring the fact that his side had a Damocles, Shen-hu, Mordred, Tristan Divider, Zangetsu, and even Guren SEITEN when Lelouch main power is just Shinkirou, Lancelot Albion, Lancelot Frontier, and Siegfried. He doesn't even think what is the circumstances that can really lead Lelouch, brave enough to launch his attacks frontally despite knowing how weak his firepower really is.

It's so broken.
I can't stand the ending because of those fact is still exists.
Especially with the fact that was Lelouch, Suzaku, and Kallen is actually those who really worked as their hardest to make sure the future is reachable. But, they received their good ending in the most cruel forms they could take.

How is behind their backs? It's not like the UFN said (that we know of) "and don't listen to anything they say, fight to the last!" It was a MILITARY operation by a THIRD PARTY who were CONTRACTED to do something. As far as we know the HOW was totally up to them to figure out. If the commander thinks a ceasefire is a good idea (especially given what happened) it isn't like he needs to ask his superiors... he is the one in ultimate command.

The decision was made by Ohgi, one of the subordinates, without a word to the UFN. That's pure insubordination.

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Where does he leave the other member nations out to dry also? They have no military power there (or anywhere) as to join the UFN they had to give it up. It's not like he pulled the BK back and let the Chinese Fed. army keep fighting...

That's exactly why the nations were left to dry. They were DEPENDENT on the BKs ever since they relinquished all military responsibilities to them. The BKs were militarily responsible for them, and they abandoned them.

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I can maybe buy/understand the thought that in other areas they may be left hanging except for two things:

1. Given how the Britannia Army operates it was probably only over Area 11 that there was a ceasefire. So if the BK had any units elsewhere they would still defend the areas they were stationed in.

They were giving up their key leader, their best chance at victory, as part of their ceasefire. A ceasefire, which by the way, likely meant a cessation of conflict against Britannia, meaning the nation was still a problem for the rest of the world. Not to mention there's no guarantee they wouldn't go after Japan again.

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2. If indeed all the BK strength was in Area 11 then they had already "betrayed" the UFN by not leaving a token defense force or something behind. But you have to figure the UFN had already known that and was ok with it.

This was the initial front of the conflict, and the Knights of the Round were sent in against them, so I guess that would account for it.

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I understand that you want to paint Lelouch in a good light and most others are evil I can even sympathize with that as I don't think anyone would argue that Lelouch didn't get the short end of the stick and the betrayal of the BK was in bad tastes. That they didn't even give Lelouch a chance to argue his case was bad, especially given all he had done for them.

That doesn't make them out to be the "super evil omg they all need to go die in fire" people that (the way I read it) you're making them out to be though. I'm not trying to say they were saints, again they definitely weren't. But if you take a step back from "omg villain, don't care about them" attitude you can see why they did what they did. You can also see that some things you're trying to lay the blame on them for (like betraying the UFN) may be more a product of hatred for them.

It's not so much a case of sheer hatred as it is one of incompetence, myopia (Japan at the expense of the world) and hypocrisy.

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Lelouch kept secrets and did things that people questioned. Even though he didn't think that they would get out, they did. Todo found out about the slaughter at the Order thing, and without context (and since no one knew about Geass...) that looks very VERY bad. He was keeping Corneillia locked up in secret on board the flagship too. Then what Villetta knew about him and told Ohgi... I bet she told him all about how he Geassed her, blackmailed her into helping him on school, etc. Again, those things look very bad. Then find out that he (and whether he meant to or not he did) ordered the death of lots of Japanese people to try to rally people to cause... He was supposed to be freeing them, not murdering them.

You're using Villetta as en example? Don't mean to sound crass, but oh brother. She was the ENEMY, who had been keeping Lelouch under surveillance early in R2. He blackmailed her to get out of her grip. Don't tell me she didn't have it coming, especially after she tried to use Shirley on him, and had already used Lelouch as a stepping stone towards nobility. She practically played the victim card there. Besides, Ohgi was guilty of keeping his relationship with her a secret, which was responsible for him getting incapacitated during the Black Rebellion, and him going AWOL from the knights to see her knowing she would kill her. To be blunt, I wish she and Ohgi died at the bottom of the waterfall. We would have been spared the Zero Requiem and their undeserved happy ending.

Besides, the Black Knights were way too passive aggressive about how they confronted Lelouch. Kallen gave him a chance, while the others went Kangaroo Court on him.

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Originally Posted by Tactics

I can't say that Lelouch kept secret from everyone is wrong.
Look at Lelouch itself, what'll happens if everyone know that he's an exiled Brittania Prince, especially when he leads an anti-Brittania resistance, including the fact that his only goal is to form a gentle world for his sister--a very selfish and childish thought.

Ultimately, Lelouch used Nunnally as an excuse for the kind of world he wanted to create. He was far from perfect, but he had nobler goals than most of the other characters. He had to put up with a lot of crap in his backstory (rewatch episode 7 of season 1) with no true parental figure to guide him after he was exiled. And at the same time, he continued to be a Cosmic Plaything throughout much of the series, the victim of many a Diabolus Ex Machina.

The decision was made by Ohgi, one of the subordinates, without a word to the UFN. That's pure insubordination.

They were giving up their key leader, their best chance at victory, as part of their ceasefire. A ceasefire, which by the way, likely meant a cessation of conflict against Britannia, meaning the nation was still a problem for the rest of the world.

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Insubordination is the act of a subordinate deliberately disobeying a lawful order. Refusing to perform an action that is unethical or illegal is not insubordination; neither is refusing to perform an action that is not within the scope of authority of the person issuing the order.

But Ohgi ISN'T a subordinate of the UFN... He was a subordinate of Zero, who he DID betray and was insubordinate to, but we're talking about the UFN here. Keep in mind the OotBK aren't tied to a country. They are an INDEPENDENT FORCE who was employed by the UFN. So long as they fulfilled their contract (giving Japan back the UFN) they haven't defied the UFN. It would be TOTALLY different if they were declared like the royal army of Japan or something, and had an allegiance to one of the nations in the UFN. But they are an independent third party, and ultimately they DID fulfill their contract to give Japan back to the UFN.

When talking about the OotBK and the whole organization being insubordinate to the UFN, that doesn't hold true either. Ultimately their "lawful order" was take back Japan. Does the UFN care about the methods or the results though? One would think they care about the results. What does it matter (to the UFN) HOW they take it back so long as it is intact and not turned to dust. A TEMPORARY ceasefire (especially after what happened) doesn't automatically mean that they are giving up and can't take back Japan.

Also, how does a local ceasefire equate to laying down arms all over the globe? If it WAS all over the globe (which since Schneizel isn't in command of all Britannia's forces iirc it COULDN'T be) then it still wouldn't change the fact that the BK aren't tied to a nation. They have a contract to defend yes, and I bet if Britannia were to attack they would defend. A ceasefire doesn't mean you pull up shop and go home, you still have patrols and the like... you just don't shoot someone if you see him.

Plus if Britannia were to attack and break it wouldn't that paint them as villains? Don't you think that would be a GOOD for the UFN? How many countries who maybe were on the fence would come to the UFN then? The civil unrest would be pushed even higher as citizens wonder if their Government can be trusted.

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Originally Posted by azul120

Not to mention there's no guarantee they wouldn't go after Japan again.

So lets say they never had the ceasefire and Lelouch was never exposed. OotBK wins back Japan. Do you think Britannia is just going to go all "Oh well guys, we didn't really want Japan anyways so they can have it!" and not attack and try to take it back? Consider how much technology runs on Sakuradite and where most of it comes from. Do you really think Britannia is going to lay down and NOT try to take it back?

If you think on it, the way it actually worked out they have a better chance to be left in peace. By giving Japan back Britannia opens the door for peace. Keep in mind they only really declared war because Japan was part of the UFN and it's homeland was "occupied" by Britannia. Once that was taken care of... well who knows for sure, but if there weren't other member states who were "occupied" then by them giving it back maybe the UFN and Britannia may not be able to live in peace as 2 super powers in the world? Well for a time at least...

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Originally Posted by azul120

You're using Villetta as en example? Don't mean to sound crass, but oh brother. She was the ENEMY, who had been keeping Lelouch under surveillance early in R2. He blackmailed her to get out of her grip. Don't tell me she didn't have it coming, especially after she tried to use Shirley on him, and had already used Lelouch as a stepping stone towards nobility. She practically played the victim card there.

Not practically, she DID. I'm not saying she wasn't an enemy or didn't have it coming. What I'm saying is that things taken out of context can look very bad. Lelouch had every right and reason to take out the Order, they were a dangerous foe with powers that could turn tides in battles. If Lelouch had shared the information about WHY he was taking it out with Todo, then Todo wouldn't have reason to mistrust him later on. The same can be said the information Villetta had.

How much do you want to bet that if he had just informed a few of the higher ups in the BK (like Todo and Ohgi) of Geass (and maybe his identity) that things would have turned out much differently. With Kallen backing him that their wills were their own, how much would have changed? Ohgi probably would have come clean about Villetta, then that whole mess could have been avoided somehow. Todo would have known about the reasons to attack the order, and there wouldn't have been that worm of doubt about "we can't trust Zero".

When Schneizel lands and plays that recording they woulda been all "yea? So what? We knew all about that already... now get outa here." (Note they couldn't have taken him hostage because of Anya with the F.L.E.I.J.A. warhead). I really think the biggest reason for the betrayal wasn't the Massacre Princess thing, but rather the fear and shock of learning about Geass.

I mean someone (I think Todo) was saying that if it was true (Zero having Geass) it would be a great and powerful weapon. THEN Schneizel goes all "if he only used it on enemies..." and THAT is when things get ugly. If they had known already and had already passed that hurdle of fear... if they hadn't right then thought about the worry that they weren't acting of their own free will and he was playing them all along... again, I bet things would have turned out much differently.

A small part may also have been that Lelouch still lead them into battle when he had been informed about F.L.E.I.J.A. being equipped on the Lancelot, but who would believe that until it was also fired. Even Suzaku was all like "you want to do WHAT now?" Once he fired it obviously people knew it was real, but that was the same time that he went bonkers from "losing" Nunnally. If everyone already knew of he went into that, then the seeds of doubt (besides having not been planted in the first place) wouldn't have sprouted like they did.

But Ohgi ISN'T a subordinate of the UFN... He was a subordinate of Zero, who he DID betray and was insubordinate to, but we're talking about the UFN here. Keep in mind the OotBK aren't tied to a country. They are an INDEPENDENT FORCE who was employed by the UFN. So long as they fulfilled their contract (giving Japan back the UFN) they haven't defied the UFN. It would be TOTALLY different if they were declared like the royal army of Japan or something, and had an allegiance to one of the nations in the UFN. But they are an independent third party, and ultimately they DID fulfill their contract to give Japan back to the UFN.

Incorrect. The Black Knights are the military arm of the UFN, and as such are under an obligation to serve them. An under the table the deal which expressly violates the intent of their invasion to benefit a relative minority in the entire organization is without a doubt against the letter and spirit of the law binding them. They even acknowledge it by hiding the circumstances. They not only mutinied upon their immediate superior without trial or due process, but further hid their misdeeds from their other superiors, Kaguya and Xingke.

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Originally Posted by Cynor

When talking about the OotBK and the whole organization being insubordinate to the UFN, that doesn't hold true either. Ultimately their "lawful order" was take back Japan. Does the UFN care about the methods or the results though? One would think they care about the results. What does it matter (to the UFN) HOW they take it back so long as it is intact and not turned to dust. A TEMPORARY ceasefire (especially after what happened) doesn't automatically mean that they are giving up and can't take back Japan.

The UFN does care, especially when the method of liberation was the tipping point for the entire global war. Ohgi's actions undermined the entire world war, with or without the threat of nukes in play.

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Originally Posted by Cynor

So lets say they never had the ceasefire and Lelouch was never exposed. OotBK wins back Japan. Do you think Britannia is just going to go all "Oh well guys, we didn't really want Japan anyways so they can have it!" and not attack and try to take it back? Consider how much technology runs on Sakuradite and where most of it comes from. Do you really think Britannia is going to lay down and NOT try to take it back?

Irrelevant. The idea was that by successfully liberating Japan, it would be the tipping point to incite further rebellion in all Britannian territories. By showing they could free one area, others would be inspired to rebel.

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Originally Posted by Cynor

If you think on it, the way it actually worked out they have a better chance to be left in peace. By giving Japan back Britannia opens the door for peace. Keep in mind they only really declared war because Japan was part of the UFN and it's homeland was "occupied" by Britannia. Once that was taken care of... well who knows for sure, but if there weren't other member states who were "occupied" then by them giving it back maybe the UFN and Britannia may not be able to live in peace as 2 super powers in the world? Well for a time at least...

Britannia was at war with the entire world. Giving back Japan does not solve that issue. Far from it. In order for there to be peace, you need to solve the problem. The problem is Britannia's aggressive expansion policy, which would not be put down without a decisive victory.

But Ohgi ISN'T a subordinate of the UFN... He was a subordinate of Zero, who he DID betray and was insubordinate to, but we're talking about the UFN here. Keep in mind the OotBK aren't tied to a country. They are an INDEPENDENT FORCE who was employed by the UFN. So long as they fulfilled their contract (giving Japan back the UFN) they haven't defied the UFN. It would be TOTALLY different if they were declared like the royal army of Japan or something, and had an allegiance to one of the nations in the UFN. But they are an independent third party, and ultimately they DID fulfill their contract to give Japan back to the UFN.

When talking about the OotBK and the whole organization being insubordinate to the UFN, that doesn't hold true either. Ultimately their "lawful order" was take back Japan. Does the UFN care about the methods or the results though? One would think they care about the results. What does it matter (to the UFN) HOW they take it back so long as it is intact and not turned to dust. A TEMPORARY ceasefire (especially after what happened) doesn't automatically mean that they are giving up and can't take back Japan.

Also, how does a local ceasefire equate to laying down arms all over the globe? If it WAS all over the globe (which since Schneizel isn't in command of all Britannia's forces iirc it COULDN'T be) then it still wouldn't change the fact that the BK aren't tied to a nation. They have a contract to defend yes, and I bet if Britannia were to attack they would defend. A ceasefire doesn't mean you pull up shop and go home, you still have patrols and the like... you just don't shoot someone if you see him.

All of this was already covered by morbosfist. Might I also add that when Zero was declared dead by the OotBK, cries could be heard from the Japanese refugees living on Horai Island? Massive morale failure, right there.

One other thing: Ohgi only thought of the trade Zero for Japan thing only to absolve himself of any guilt over betraying their leader. And that quite possibly makes it even worse.

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Plus if Britannia were to attack and break it wouldn't that paint them as villains? Don't you think that would be a GOOD for the UFN? How many countries who maybe were on the fence would come to the UFN then? The civil unrest would be pushed even higher as citizens wonder if their Government can be trusted.

Britannia was already still enemy to the rest of the world. The only thing that would change was that without Zero to head the Black Knights, The Bad Guy Wins. Game Over. All Your Base Are Belong To Us.

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So lets say they never had the ceasefire and Lelouch was never exposed. OotBK wins back Japan. Do you think Britannia is just going to go all "Oh well guys, we didn't really want Japan anyways so they can have it!" and not attack and try to take it back? Consider how much technology runs on Sakuradite and where most of it comes from. Do you really think Britannia is going to lay down and NOT try to take it back?

If you think on it, the way it actually worked out they have a better chance to be left in peace. By giving Japan back Britannia opens the door for peace. Keep in mind they only really declared war because Japan was part of the UFN and it's homeland was "occupied" by Britannia. Once that was taken care of... well who knows for sure, but if there weren't other member states who were "occupied" then by them giving it back maybe the UFN and Britannia may not be able to live in peace as 2 super powers in the world? Well for a time at least...

As morbosfist stated earlier, with Zero still in charge, morale would be raised, and even more campaigns and rebellions would be mounted until all the number nations were freed, and the old face of Britannia was history.

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Not practically, she DID. I'm not saying she wasn't an enemy or didn't have it coming. What I'm saying is that things taken out of context can look very bad. Lelouch had every right and reason to take out the Order, they were a dangerous foe with powers that could turn tides in battles. If Lelouch had shared the information about WHY he was taking it out with Todo, then Todo wouldn't have reason to mistrust him later on. The same can be said the information Villetta had.

How much do you want to bet that if he had just informed a few of the higher ups in the BK (like Todo and Ohgi) of Geass (and maybe his identity) that things would have turned out much differently. With Kallen backing him that their wills were their own, how much would have changed? Ohgi probably would have come clean about Villetta, then that whole mess could have been avoided somehow. Todo would have known about the reasons to attack the order, and there wouldn't have been that worm of doubt about "we can't trust Zero".

When Schneizel lands and plays that recording they woulda been all "yea? So what? We knew all about that already... now get outa here." (Note they couldn't have taken him hostage because of Anya with the F.L.E.I.J.A. warhead). I really think the biggest reason for the betrayal wasn't the Massacre Princess thing, but rather the fear and shock of learning about Geass.

I mean someone (I think Todo) was saying that if it was true (Zero having Geass) it would be a great and powerful weapon. THEN Schneizel goes all "if he only used it on enemies..." and THAT is when things get ugly. If they had known already and had already passed that hurdle of fear... if they hadn't right then thought about the worry that they weren't acting of their own free will and he was playing them all along... again, I bet things would have turned out much differently.

A small part may also have been that Lelouch still lead them into battle when he had been informed about F.L.E.I.J.A. being equipped on the Lancelot, but who would believe that until it was also fired. Even Suzaku was all like "you want to do WHAT now?" Once he fired it obviously people knew it was real, but that was the same time that he went bonkers from "losing" Nunnally. If everyone already knew of he went into that, then the seeds of doubt (besides having not been planted in the first place) wouldn't have sprouted like they did.

The BKs still weren't buying what Schneizel was saying at that point. Remember Tamaki protesting that anyone could have forged that recording? It wasn't until Ohgi, with Villetta in tow, came in that they started falling hook, line and sinker. There's a very good reason Ohgi took the Scrappy mantle from Suzaku and Nina, both of whom at the very least learned their lesson from FLEIJA. It was because of him, and Villetta, that the betrayal happened. It didn't help matters that they both got the happiest ending.

It's easy to say that Lelouch could have been more honest, but harder in reality. Remember how Kirihara insisted that his identity, for instance, be kept secret? Or how Tohdoh believes a leader in battle needs to keep certain things classified? While there are certain things Lelouch SHOULD have been more open about, he would have been hard pressed to explain Geass without everyone thinking he was crazy, or to begin freaking out when he began demonstrating it. The always trusting Euphie herself told him he was being silly. Now think how they might react to their leader talking about the supernatural.

Also, the problem with the information about FLEIJA was that Lelouch himself couldn't believe Suzaku after the perceived betrayal. It was the perfect setup by Schneizel and Kanon. (That, and hiding Nunnally from Lelouch so Lelouch would be that screwed up until the end, and later, that Nunnally would be used against him.)

Again, the Black Knights were too passive aggressive in their issues with their leader's secrecy.