tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.comments2013-07-25T23:59:41.911-07:00BGBC SurvivorsJulie Annenoreply@blogger.comBlogger6890125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-36083984071064549592013-01-06T12:02:38.640-08:002013-01-06T12:02:38.640-08:00Last year I watched my sister and her husband marr...Last year I watched my sister and her husband marry my niece off to a man ten years older her seniour. During the ceremony we were instructed that this was not an arranged marriage, though I had been informed how it was arranged by the fathers before the wedding. We were told that the couple was in love,though they had never dated. We listened to speeches attesting to the purity of bride and groom, and about how the bride&#39;s price was paid. We watched as about twenty people signed the marriage covenant and promised to ensure the contract of marriage was upheld. Many passages from the old testament (Deuteronomy and Exodus) were quoted, but not once was Jesus mentioned during the ceremony. It has taken me months to recover to where I can even talk about it. My sister graduated with honors from college and will not even allow her daughters the opportunity to be educated past their home schooling &quot;mommy training&quot;. She has several other daughters still at home to collect a bride&#39;s prices for. I feel helpless. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-4319223851522153052013-01-05T06:15:51.669-08:002013-01-05T06:15:51.669-08:00I am a new Christian, so perhaps I am ignorant of ...I am a new Christian, so perhaps I am ignorant of things that more experienced Christians would take for granted. In my view, church doctrine is what it is, and if I don&#39;t like it, I know where the door is. I saw with my own eyes the nearly 1000 bodies The Rev. Jim Jones left behind. Those people knew where the door was too.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-51017799281061132582013-01-02T11:48:54.899-08:002013-01-02T11:48:54.899-08:00Matthias - Chuck answers some of your questions at...Matthias - Chuck answers some of your questions at the church blog: http://www.beavertongracebible.org/<br /><br />The blog link is on the left sidebar. Julie Annehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03125322661578802590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-77769719620716670402013-01-02T11:47:27.266-08:002013-01-02T11:47:27.266-08:00Just an FYI: Chuck has posted more of his side of...Just an FYI: Chuck has posted more of his side of the story if you go to the Beaverton Grace Bible Church website and click on &quot;blog&quot; on the left-hand side of the screen. There are around 8 new posts. Happy reading! Julie Annehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03125322661578802590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-43174913025090972172013-01-02T11:45:22.447-08:002013-01-02T11:45:22.447-08:00Jackie - You make great observations. Thank you! ...Jackie - You make great observations. Thank you! There really are so many holes in the &quot;story&quot; when someone actually takes the time to look closely. Julie Annehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03125322661578802590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-21597327386864860762013-01-02T04:47:25.218-08:002013-01-02T04:47:25.218-08:00Sad, read the attorney letter on Churck&#39;s webs...Sad, read the attorney letter on Churck&#39;s website. In it, the attorney claims to have been there and reports that Charlie &quot;volunteered&quot; to be interviewed, that he was not required to be since he was 18. That clearly indicates he was not the subject of the investigation. In that same letter the attorney states that the O&#39;Neals told the investigator that it was Meghan who made the report, not the other way around as Chuck claims. Chuck&#39;s own evidence contradicts his claims.<br /><br />The question I have to ask is why would Chuck advertise the fact that his son was invetigated when It was never written about it in the blog or anywhere else? All he did was draw attention to his son.Jackie C.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-69778921462481840432013-01-01T23:41:43.416-08:002013-01-01T23:41:43.416-08:00Boy, that&#39;s a great question, Steve. I read t...Boy, that&#39;s a great question, Steve. I read the article and really respect Dr. MacArthur in how he does open himself up for criticism and accepts it. <br /><br />Perhaps Fred, in his zeal and love for MacArthur, feels a need to protect him. If you go to Fred&#39;s blog, he discusses a very disgruntled person who even pickets GCC campus in protest to MacArthur&#39;s teachings. He may have a couple posts on this topic. I don&#39;t recall MacArthur suing, do you?Julie Annehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03125322661578802590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-3576248145170147972013-01-01T22:11:28.850-08:002013-01-01T22:11:28.850-08:00&quot;He also has plenty of words to say about peo...&quot;He also has plenty of words to say about people who go against John MacArthur publicly...&quot;<br /><br />I haven&#39;t read enough of Fred&#39;s writings to know one way or another on this. But, I would like to say, however, that John MacArthur is fine with public criticism of his public views (i.e. preaching, websites, blogs, etc.), and in fact even invites it. He has publicly said so:<br /><br />http://www.challies.com/interviews/5-more-questions-with-john-macarthur<br /><br />Please read the second question in this interview by Tim Challies, especially the last paragraph of that question. If JMac is fine with it, why would any of his followers not be?Steve Scotthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10297044571819912511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-1517807537457602782013-01-01T07:52:23.489-08:002013-01-01T07:52:23.489-08:00Julie Anne
And a Happy New Year to you also...
T...Julie Anne<br /><br />And a Happy New Year to you also...<br /><br />Thank you for your hard work and en-courage-ment for so many who are hurting...<br /><br />May the Peace of God that passes all understanding be with you.<br /><br />It is my honor to have met you. A. Amos Lovehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13380832298820984354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-53063931709771263462013-01-01T06:04:16.219-08:002013-01-01T06:04:16.219-08:00wow...quite a year! Prayers for you, Julie Anne, ...wow...quite a year! Prayers for you, Julie Anne, for a blessed 2013! Tammy Carterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07880246076836728123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-87362816933497467502013-01-01T02:59:46.299-08:002013-01-01T02:59:46.299-08:00Bene D:
Happy New Year to you! Boy, we are night...Bene D:<br /><br />Happy New Year to you! Boy, we are night owls :)<br /><br />I&#39;m afraid I don&#39;t know many specifics. I was told his license was revoked. Yes, the district is the Pacific-Northwest. <br /><br />I do not know the specific answers to #1.<br />Re: #2 - It is my understanding that the local district (PNW) licensed him. Ok, I&#39;m clueless - is ordaining and licensing done at the same time or separately? Someone will have to help me out there.<br /><br />I do not know the answers to questions 3-5, but sure would like to know.<br /><br />It would be nice to have more of the questions answered. I&#39;ll see what I can find out.<br /><br />Julie Annehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03125322661578802590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-89054085379081693452013-01-01T02:21:50.293-08:002013-01-01T02:21:50.293-08:00Happy New Year everyone!
Sitting here in Canada, ...Happy New Year everyone!<br /><br />Sitting here in Canada, like Brad, An Attorney and Mathhias, I&#39;ve been digging around trying to understand.<br /><br />1) Is Beaverton Grace Bible Fellowship currently in good standing with The Fellowship of Grace Brethren Churches? http://www.fgbc.org/<br /><br />As Matthias points out, the current church (Beaverton) is listed under it&#39;s former name.<br /><br />2)Did the fgbc ordain and licence Chuck O&#39;Neil?<br /><br />3) If an ordained minister gets his licence yanked in Oregon by his denomination, does the state get notified?<br /><br />4) Does Mr. O&#39;Neil then lose certain privileges afforded him by the state, such officiating at marriages and funerals (as An Attorney pointed out)?<br /><br />5) In the province I live in, the licencing body (and often also the ordaining body) would be duty bound to inform the province their colleague was no longer recognized. No more matching and dispatching for him/her.<br /><br />I&#39;m confused, and while I know that more will come out in time...I think it would help readers to have a clear understanding of denominational affiliation and procedure.<br /><br />Getting credentials yanked doesn&#39;t stop an unlicensed minister from seeking credentials elsewhere - including less than reputable organizations, but the loss of licence is a very serious matter.<br />If a church decides to keep the unlicensed minister, they are more often than not booted out of the overseeing denomination/fellowship.<br /><br />Julie Anne, you said,<br /><br />&quot;As far as licensing, I believe it was the local district group who licensed him and also revoked the license.&quot;<br /><br />Would you explain, local district group? <br />Do you mean the below?<br /><br />According to the fgbc - &quot;A district may be formed with a minimum of three churches.&quot;<br /><br />Here is the list of Oregon churches:<br />http://www.fgbc.org/churches/list?state=Oregon<br /><br />In the fgbc manual of procedure districts are defined as:<br /><br />&quot;The geographical regions which nominees are to represent on the Fellowship Council shall include the following recognized Districts:<br /><br />Western: Arctic, Hawaii, Mountain Plains, Nor Cal, Pacific-Northwest, and Southern California Arizona.<br />Central: Heartland, Iowa Midlands, Northcentral Ohio, Northeastern Ohio, Northwest Ohio, and Tri-States.<br />Eastern: Allegheny, Blue Ridge, Chesapeake, Mid Atlantic, Northern Atlantic, Florida, Southern, and Western Pennsylvania.&quot;<br /><br />http://www.fgbc.org/contents/show/19<br /><br />If this loss of license is true, I&#39;m concerned for your safety and the safety of others - the ongoing obsession and blaming could escalate toward you and your loved ones. If this yanking of license is true, things took a sharp turn for the worse for Mr. O&#39;Neil. Be safe.<br /><br />Bene D<br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-21332831512857708722013-01-01T00:29:49.835-08:002013-01-01T00:29:49.835-08:00And...What happens if she slips up? or falls in lo...And...What happens if she slips up? or falls in love with someone her father does not approve of? Maybe people in these systems should read books like &quot;Clarissa&quot; and find out why forced marriage is a bad idea, even for dutiful, prudent daughters. :P And how can she have her dates approved if she moves away for college?...Oh, wait, college is a waste of time for girls. This all seems to be about keeping women as children.<br /><br />I&#39;m so glad I went to college before this stuff started coming into the churches. I grew up fundamentalist, yet we had no problem with normal dating and girls choosing their own mates. Instead, there was plenty of teaching teenagers about sexual purity so we wouldn&#39;t go beyond kissing while off on dates. (Though I saw how well guys actually listened to this. ;) )<br /><br />I hadn&#39;t heard of this movie &quot;Courageous.&quot; Oh the relief of now being safely tucked away from these modern fads, in an Orthodox church! ;)<br /><br />Nyssahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17637244228655409909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-63961731768502272962012-12-31T23:51:21.438-08:002012-12-31T23:51:21.438-08:00Yeah, I picked up that practice from the 700 Club....Yeah, I picked up that practice from the 700 Club. <br />Nyssahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17637244228655409909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-11622054089852465862012-12-31T23:47:24.028-08:002012-12-31T23:47:24.028-08:00And then there&#39;s &quot;love on&quot;....What t...And then there&#39;s &quot;love on&quot;....What the heck is &quot;love on&quot;? We didn&#39;t use that term when I was growing up. But we did say &quot;It&#39;s a God thing&quot; in college. Then there were the usual standard phrases whenever somebody stood up to lead the prayer: Father God, we come here tonight to...., we ask you...., bless this food to our bodies (that was my dad&#39;s).<br /> Nyssahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17637244228655409909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-23782867609222962462012-12-31T23:38:48.679-08:002012-12-31T23:38:48.679-08:00One of the benefits of hanging out with Net gamers...One of the benefits of hanging out with Net gamers online is I understood your &quot;teen lingo&quot; there, even though I&#39;m almost 40 and my son is way too young yet. LOL I can even use it without sounding like a poser! :D<br /><br />Miranda&#39;s eyebrow twitch is so funny. She&#39;s quite the ham, isn&#39;t she?<br /><br />I recall looking through classifieds for a church, and knowing to avoid the &quot;spirit-filled&quot; churches because they were Charismatic and we didn&#39;t want to deal with speaking in tongues etc. ;)<br /><br />Now in Orthodoxy, the usual code words don&#39;t apply, because our doctrine/worship are supposed to be basically the same everywhere. But I still need to learn a new lingo, because what one word means in the Western churches, is different from what it means in Orthodox churches. For example, justification is not a legal term or one-time event in Orthodoxy, but the continuous process of becoming righteous. You can see in the Greek that &quot;righteous&quot; and &quot;justified&quot; come from the same root word in Romans 3:21-24. For another example, salvation is not a one-time event, but a lifelong process. You have to adjust your understanding when converting, or you can get confused.<br /><br />I always understood &quot;biblically-based&quot; as very conservative, traditional viewpoints. Lingo also helps in figuring out the denomination/affiliation of a church when you&#39;re going through the classifieds. :) Latter-Day Saints, you know it&#39;s Mormon. Full gospel or Apostolic, Pentecostal. Bible church, very conservative. United Pentecostal, unitarian. I don&#39;t know if abusive churches use lingo any more than anybody else.... Nyssahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17637244228655409909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-13728031444505214052012-12-31T22:27:50.346-08:002012-12-31T22:27:50.346-08:00I&#39;m not sure how this all started. When I was...I&#39;m not sure how this all started. When I was little, there was no fuss over Halloween that I can remember. I grew up in a fundamentalist church--no dancing, no drinking, no movies, etc.--yet we had trick-or-treating right in the Sunday School department for the early grades! No special &quot;Christian&quot; names, but regular Halloween trick-or-treating. I remember somebody dressing as a witch; maybe it was one of the teachers, maybe it was me....Anyway, I know I dressed as a witch for trick-or-treating one year--at night, out around the neighborhood, same as everybody else. My parents never had a problem with it. My church never had a problem with it.<br /><br />In the late 80s, in my teens, I started watching The 700 Club, and that&#39;s where I first heard that Halloween was &quot;evil.&quot; For a short time, I even bought into it, didn&#39;t want to pass out treats at the door. But by college I was back to normal and enjoyed Halloween dances/parties and seeing people dress up just for the heck of it. :)<br />Nyssahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17637244228655409909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-75393442709338097292012-12-31T22:27:08.690-08:002012-12-31T22:27:08.690-08:00♥ ♪♫.•*¨ Happy New Year ¨*•.¸♪♫ ♥
☆.¸¸.•´☆.¸¸.•´☆....♥ ♪♫.•*¨ Happy New Year ¨*•.¸♪♫ ♥<br />☆.¸¸.•´☆.¸¸.•´☆.¸¸.•´☆.¸¸.•´☆.¸¸.•´☆.¸¸.•´<br />▄████▄░▄███▄░░▄██░▄████▄<br />▀▀░▄██░██░██░████░▀▀░▄█▀<br />░▄██▀░░██░██░░░██░▄▄░▀██<br />██████░▀███▀░░░██░▀████▀Barb Orlowskihttp://www.churchexiters.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-19614996765181880402012-12-31T20:04:22.060-08:002012-12-31T20:04:22.060-08:00You are so right, Brad. Essentially, if this grou...You are so right, Brad. Essentially, if this group of pastors decided that he is no longer fit to have a license, you can be sure that if they did have hierarchal power, he would have been fired. And when you look up these pastors, they are quite reputable, Dr. Howell having been awarded pastor of the year in 2009 by the Association of Grace Brethren (national). This license revoking is very serious. Thank you for your insight, Brad.<br /><br />Julie Annehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03125322661578802590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-51779468293793328272012-12-31T17:14:05.969-08:002012-12-31T17:14:05.969-08:00Thanks for the information, An Attorney - I apprec...Thanks for the information, An Attorney - I appreciate your sharing those details with us. <br /><br />As for your first point, it seems like this entire year, we&#39;ve all been finding out bits and pieces of how different states deal with certain issues differently, such as the post Julie Anne did on mandatory reporting versus limited exemptions, etc. <br /><br />http://bgbcsurvivors.blogspot.com/2012/10/mandatory-reporting-laws-for-clergy.html<br /><br />So, it&#39;s important for us to know that loss of license could mean a loss of legal standing in some things. We need to know about this, because - who knows - issues about licensing may well emerge in forthcoming legal disputes, such as with the Sovereign Grace Ministries.<br /><br />But, it seems to me, the revoking by the peers who originally granted one&#39;s ministerial license has a lot to do with leadership standing in terms of entrustment and personal reputation. As you note in your second point, this is about peers determining that you are no longer qualified to function in that group. <br /><br />In my opinion, to be credible, both ordination and licensing processes should involve examination and oversight by peers. These processes may have been split so that licensing is for legal standing, and ordination for in-church/ministry standing, but if you don&#39;t qualify for both, maybe you really shouldn&#39;t be doing either one of them.<br /><br />I&#39;ve seen this work well. I was on an ordination council once as the recording secretary. Two gentlemen were being asked questions on faith and practice by a local group of pastors. It was a friendly process, but it was also about whether these candidates met the clear biblical criteria of personal character, ministry skill, and biblical-theological knowledge. They wouldn&#39;t have even gotten to the ordination council stage if they weren&#39;t already qualified in the areas of mature character, wisdom, and proven ministry abilities. The knowledge part was the final deciding criteria, not the first. <br /><br />These were local candidates, working in local churches there. And many of these local pastors collaborated frequently. So they&#39;d eventually be working side by side with both of these candidates who were in the ordination process. And everyone took seriously their responsibility NOT to &quot;lay hands&quot; on an unqualified leader and thereby share in God&#39;s judgment.<br /><br />So, I understand that licensing is not the same as ordination, but still, I see the fact that Mr. O&#39;Neal&#39;s accrediting group revoked his license as being a serious thing in terms of his reputation.brad/futuristguyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15744226426932166097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-40433610842905974282012-12-31T17:12:55.925-08:002012-12-31T17:12:55.925-08:00It is my understanding that it would be a fairly e...It is my understanding that it would be a fairly easy matter for the church to issue him a license. I knew a church that left an organization and then the church licensed its own ministers. Plus, for just a few bucks, anyone can become a &quot;minister.&quot;Loisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-47300880373588010212012-12-31T16:16:54.160-08:002012-12-31T16:16:54.160-08:00Wow...is there some kind of psychological disorder...Wow...is there some kind of psychological disorder for someone that is an obsessive controller? Ya know, I remember asking one of my counselor friends one time if she even sees any narcissistic personality disorders and she says it is RARE because they think they don&#39;t need psychological help in the first place...they always think it&#39;s everyone else that needs help. Honestly, I had a pastor that way for a couple of years. They really thought everyone else was the problem and should get counseling. They also thought that they were some kind of &quot;hero&quot; that bowed down or went down to others levels to help them!!! YIKES!!! There is no humility and thinking about what they can do to change or grow. It&#39;s always how others need to improve. Tammy Carterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07880246076836728123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-58479157553876001862012-12-31T15:40:42.277-08:002012-12-31T15:40:42.277-08:00If his license has been revoked, he may have no ri...If his license has been revoked, he may have no right to perform marriages. In some jurisdictions, he would lose the clergy protection from reporting. In some jurisdictions, he would also lose the ability to conduct a funeral.<br /><br />The shunner has been shunned by those in similar roles in other congregations, because of his actions being so far outside the reasonable expectations of the behavior of a pastor.An Attorneynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-58976927232995786572012-12-31T13:50:40.525-08:002012-12-31T13:50:40.525-08:00Sad - This has been discussed many times on variou...Sad - This has been discussed many times on various blogs, news articles. When someone reports to DHS, it is the responsibility of DHS to take that information and use it as they see fit. Once the report is filed, it is their job to do a thorough investigation to ensure the safety of children. It is not up to us to understand the whys, but to trust the system that is in place by professionals who understand abuse and whole systems of abuse. <br /><br />One possible explanation as to why O&#39;Neal family was investigated (purely Julie Anne&#39;s speculation):<br /><br /><br />If I were a DHS investigator who found out that:<br /><br />Chuck told someone (Meaghan) who knew of sex abuse situations with children to NOT report, that he would take care of it, it would make me question: why would he do that? Why would he tell her NOT to report? That would send me red flags if I were a DHS investigator.<br /><br />. . . and then come to find out the sex abuser is still living with abused children, some 8 months after the church member told the pastor about it (in court documentation, we know that Chuck had knowledge of sex abuse some 8 months before DHS finally did investigate) . . . More Red Flags<br /><br /> . . . and if there were other known sexual indiscretions going on in the church that the pastor, who is in a position of authority and responsible to protect others . . . and if he failed to handle those situations properly by reporting - - More Red Flags<br /><br /> . . . . .it is a very logical conclusion for a DHS worker to say, &quot;why did this pastor not report to proper authorities and want to handle this on his own without having professionals involved?&quot; The logical conclusion could be . . . . . Could this pastor, who refuses to report these incidences on his own, who told his own congregation member to not report, have something to hide? Is there something more we should be investigating? <br /><br />It&#39;s a no brainer why they investigated O&#39;Neal and his family. He basically asked for it himself by failing to report all of the above incidences appropriately. Mrs. O&#39;Neal&#39;s anger should be at her own husband. He failed his job as a pastor to follow normal and reasonable procedures in proper reporting. His children would never have been investigated and endured medical exams if he would have done his job as a pastor and reported to authorities. <br /><br />The anger is misdirected to us because he fails to accept his own responsibility in failing to report. It&#39;s always someone else&#39;s fault. This pastor can do no wrong. Just ask his elder, Dale Weaver - we asked him this question and he found no fault - NOTHING wrong with this pastor in the years he served as elder with Chuck. It&#39;s a pretty dangerous place to be when you are at a church with a pastor who is apparently like God, with no sin. When a pastor is elevated to this god-like status, you are in a church with rampant spiritual abuse, there is no other choice but false teaching. Everything is skewed if a pastor can do no wrong, shows no humility, shows no responsibilities for wrongdoing. <br /><br />As I have said before, if he lived in OK and failed to report, he could have been arrested for failure to report. Lucky for him, he gets to hide behind a clergy loophole in the Oregon&#39;s mandatory reporting laws. And now, instead, he thinks he has the right to accuse us of &quot;criminal&quot; behavior for calling him and his son sex abusers, WHICH WE HAVE NOT DONE!<br /><br /><b>DISCLAIMER: I repeat - I do not believe Chuck O&#39;Neal or Charlie O&#39;Neal to be sex offenders.</b><br /><br />Chuck incriminates himself on a daily basis by his words and his actions. And now he is doing it publicly on the internet for all to see. I hope people are taking notes of this behavior. <br /><br /><br />Julie Annehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03125322661578802590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4861198333046479177.post-53370601874222917732012-12-31T13:19:00.311-08:002012-12-31T13:19:00.311-08:00Check out Brad’s comment @ Todd Rhoades site. It i...Check out Brad’s comment @ Todd Rhoades site. It is the first of a few. Brad identifies the fact that there is a huge problem with ‘the system’--that many at TWW and here have commented on over time.<br /><br />http://toddrhoades.com/pastor-starts-website-to-attack-churchs-attackers/#comment-25658<br /><br />Barb Orlowskihttp://www.churchexiters.comnoreply@blogger.com