(15-09-2010 01:09 PM)sosa Wrote: Do you really think that these women choose to wear these?

Yes I do. Islamic women, Amish women, Geishas(OK maybe not), etc wear clothing specific to their beliefs and will absolutely swear to their God that it is their choice. Burqa's are more extreme, but I'll bet the women will say it's their choice.

Quote:Your argument makes no sense. I am not arguing that the government should protect you from yourself. I am arguing that it should protect you (in this case women) from being forced to do something that is imposed on them. What do you think would be the consequence if a muslim woman chooses to not wear a burqa? acid to the face comes to mind right away.

If it is their choice then you are protecting them from themselves. I'm sure tens of thousands of women under the Taliban were forced to wear burqas, but this is France not the Taliban.

(15-09-2010 02:41 PM)sosa Wrote: Sorry Dregs but it seems that you show some ignorance to islamic culture.

While they may "say" it is a choice, the reality is quite the opposite. These women wouldn't dare not wear such a thing because of the repercussions that would come because of it.

What's the alternative to not wearing one? acid to the face perhaps? is that a real choice? These women are victims of the situation they are born in.

I agree, which is exactly why this law is a terrible idea. The french government isn't protecting anyone from opression. They're just making these women stay home!! With the few possible exceptions, these women are forced to wear the burqa, and if they can't wear it in public, they will be forced to stay OUT of public by the same means. They're punishing the wrong people.

Talk about skirting the issue. It's like putting a band-aid on a severed leg.

Quote:I'm sure tens of thousands of women under the Taliban were forced to wear burqas, but this is France not the Taliban.

I think that is the exact point the French are trying to make with this legislation.

As for the the band-aide analogy, I'm not sure Stark is right here. I would predict that the initial reaction by the devout Muslim community will be to respond the way some suggest, by forcing their women to stay in doors, I equally think that will prove to be an impractical long term solution and the French will get at least their superficial goal of having Muslim women walk around France without burqas.

Will it lead to their long term goal of equality for Muslim women? Who can say. 50 years ago blacks in the US engaged in boycotts and protests that many thought were mere rabble rousing and the wrong way to go about changing hearts and minds on race relations. People like Dr. King took the approach that it if you could change the system so you were treated equally, being thought of equally would eventually follow.

It is possible that this move is a total waste of time, or it is possible that it is an important first step towards empowering women in a community where they have traditionally had no power. Time will tell which, I suppose.

Also, I do not dismiss the possibility that France has an ulterior motive here in terms of being able to identify a would-be suspect to a crime, and especially a terrorist crime. I know they are not claiming that, but it would not shock me if that was a consideration. However, given some of the other things the French have done, like the banning of all religious symbols from schools (including head scarves for Muslim women), I really think their primary motivation is what they claim it is.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost

(15-09-2010 02:41 PM)sosa Wrote: What's the alternative to not wearing one? acid to the face perhaps? is that a real choice? These women are victims of the situation they are born in.

But do these things happen in France? It is a pretty liberal country and there obviously isn't an Islamic authority enforcing conformity. What you say is true for countries in the Middle East. But I doubt it is true for France. Perhaps if we can find a poll of Muslim women and how they stand on the issue we can analyze the issue better.

I'm not quite getting thoughts out right so let me try again. I realize that if the men in these families told their wives "no more Burqa" the women would love it. So in that sense yes they are being forced. However these women chose to be a part of a culture that believes this stuff so they must abide. The Taliban made normal women wear burqas, and those women did not choose to be a part of that culture. However in all this my main point is that this ban will do little on nothing to change this culture, and the women will still be slaves burqa or no burqa.

(15-09-2010 06:12 PM)Dregs Wrote: I'm not quite getting thoughts out right so let me try again. I realize that if the men in these families told their wives "no more Burqa" the women would love it. So in that sense yes they are being forced. However these women chose to be a part of a culture that believes this stuff so they must abide.

(15-09-2010 02:41 PM)sosa Wrote: What's the alternative to not wearing one? acid to the face perhaps? is that a real choice? These women are victims of the situation they are born in.

But do these things happen in France? It is a pretty liberal country and there obviously isn't an Islamic authority enforcing conformity. What you say is true for countries in the Middle East. But I doubt it is true for France. Perhaps if we can find a poll of Muslim women and how they stand on the issue we can analyze the issue better.

It happens everywhere, not just in middle-eastern countries. Genital mutilation, honor killings happen all around the globe and even in the USA

(15-09-2010 03:16 PM)BnW Wrote: Will it lead to their long term goal of equality for Muslim women? Who can say. 50 years ago blacks in the US engaged in boycotts and protests that many thought were mere rabble rousing and the wrong way to go about changing hearts and minds on race relations. People like Dr. King took the approach that it if you could change the system so you were treated equally, being thought of equally would eventually follow.

I must admit, this is a relevant comparison, and makes your argument compelling. I wonder though, if the right people are taking a stand. Dr. King changed the system so he would be treated equally. The burqa issue almost feels like it's being pushed onto the muslim community by a third party. Changing how muslim women are treated within their community by some one (read the french government) outside that community will undoubtedly diminish the effect it has. I suppose the question is, will it be so watered down as to become more of an impedement than a benefit?

(15-09-2010 06:12 PM)Dregs Wrote: I'm not quite getting thoughts out right so let me try again. I realize that if the men in these families told their wives "no more Burqa" the women would love it. So in that sense yes they are being forced. However these women chose to be a part of a culture that believes this stuff so they must abide.

Please explain how they chose to be a part of the culture.

So being a Muslim is no longer a choice? If one of these women wanted to be an atheist would the government refuse her request. Sorry you were born a Muslim and you need to stay a Muslim. Now you may say that they will need to leave their families and all their support, and could even be in danger, but its still a choice they can make.