Chilling testimony from an Auschwitz inmate forced to help the Nazi murder squads has finally been deciphered, thanks to painstaking detective work and digital imaging.

On scraps of notepaper Marcel Nadjari, a Greek Jew, described how thousands of Jews were herded into the gas chambers daily. He saw them "packed in like sardines".In 1944, the 26-year-old was burning with a desire for revenge. He had heard from fellow Greek Jews that his mother, father and sister Nelli had died at Auschwitz-Birkenau camp, in Nazi-occupied southern Poland, the year before."Often I thought of going in with the others, to put an end to this. But always revenge prevented me doing so. I wanted and want to live, to avenge the death of Dad, Mum and my dear little sister," he wrote.

Is it a rather new evidence?I searched HC for entries of Marcel Nadjari and they got two, here's the major one.

Last edited by Oozy_Substance on Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Thanks, Oozy. I don’t know any more about this than what you just posted. I do remember the HC post on it.

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Kleon posted about Nadjari (and IIRC this story - or was that latter Hans' HC piece - or both of them?) in the Sonderkommando thread.

This is a pretty cutting-edge proof, don't you think?Nadjari mentions the gas chambers and the removal of bodies.

I think it should put deniers into some stress. They can't claim it's a fake Soviet document, because it isn't. The best they can do is to claim the researchers who studied it displayed false results, or that the whole story is fake.

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Thanks, Oozy. I don’t know any more about this than what you just posted. I do remember the HC post on it.

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Kleon posted about Nadjari (and IIRC this story - or was that latter Hans' HC piece - or both of them?) in the Sonderkommando thread.

This is a pretty cutting-edge proof, don't you think?Nadjari mentions the gas chambers and the removal of bodies.

I think it should put deniers into some stress. They can't claim it's a fake Soviet document, because it isn't. The best they can do is to claim the researchers who studied it displayed false results, or that the whole story is fake.

Deniers don’t like eyewitness statements and they’ll just call it faked.

“Today I saw one of those places, saw it in all of its horror, all its filth, all its death.”Soldier entering the Ohrdruf Concentration Camp.

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Thanks, Oozy. I don’t know any more about this than what you just posted. I do remember the HC post on it.

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Kleon posted about Nadjari (and IIRC this story - or was that latter Hans' HC piece - or both of them?) in the Sonderkommando thread.

This is a pretty cutting-edge proof, don't you think?Nadjari mentions the gas chambers and the removal of bodies.

I think it should put deniers into some stress. They can't claim it's a fake Soviet document, because it isn't. The best they can do is to claim the researchers who studied it displayed false results, or that the whole story is fake.

Deniers don’t like eyewitness statements and they’ll just call it faked.

Well, deniers are dishonest by overall, but that's more than an eyewitness statement, as it was written during the war and was dug out of the ground decades later.

I have some questions about this memoir and other memoirs found by other Sonderkommandos. I tried to look at rodoh too see if they say something about this memoir. Deniers will be deniers, and they put it to mockery in one thread, especially the part where Najdari says the bodies burn on their own fat.

Does anyone have insights about it? I am clueless about the technical details of cremation.

As for the other memoirs, I wonder if the technical details given in them are all accurate and match historical research?

The issue of the role of fat in creations comes up from other witnesses (e.g., Filip Müller) and has long been a favorite denier issue. I am sure that Hans has written about it, perhaps in this subforum, certainly at HC. I cannot help with the technical arguments.

At the old RODOH (1.0) deniers didn't really like discussing the scrolls of Auschwitz, as the Sonderkommando manuscripts are known. A few of them (Herbivorous Moose, whodareswings AKA Charles Krafft - here and here, Scott Smith), when pressed, made “points” like

- where are the scrolls of Auschwitz archived? - trying to raise doubt about their existence/authenticity- the Jews were eager to help the Germans (in the Sonderkommandos which didn’t exist?!?!?!)- there are chronological problems in one of the mss, Langfus’, and differing reports on the date of his death (which is true)- “giant pink talking rabbits in outer space” (verbatim)- Nyiszli (!!!!!) was a liar (irrelevant as he was a postwar witness not an author of one of the buried manuscripts)- “Sonderkommandoes in the Grey Zone. You should see them put away biscuits and jam and tins of oysters” (verbatim)

Whodareswings genuinely came across as uninformed about the SK manuscripts and surprised to learn of them; WDW was fascinated by the accounts of the shooting of Schillinger (and Emmerich?) in the gas chamber, of which Zalmen Gradowski's account in one of the "scrolls" is but one of many.

You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

Jeffk 1970 wrote:Thanks, Oozy. I don’t know any more about this than what you just posted. I do remember the HC post on it.

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Kleon posted about Nadjari (and IIRC this story - or was that latter Hans' HC piece - or both of them?) in the Sonderkommando thread.

This is a pretty cutting-edge proof, don't you think?Nadjari mentions the gas chambers and the removal of bodies.

I think it should put deniers into some stress. They can't claim it's a fake Soviet document, because it isn't. The best they can do is to claim the researchers who studied it displayed false results, or that the whole story is fake.

Deniers don’t like eyewitness statements and they’ll just call it faked.

Well, deniers are dishonest by overall, but that's more than an eyewitness statement, as it was written during the war and was dug out of the ground decades later.

Oozy, I’ve used the Auschwitz scrolls with deniers in the past. They consider them fakes, regardless of when someone wrote them or discovered them.

In a related vein, I’ve brought up the bone fragments found at the Action Reinhard Camps after the war. Hermie, a really weird antisemitic whackaloon, told me that it was a strong possibility that someone planted them.

I’m not kidding.

“Today I saw one of those places, saw it in all of its horror, all its filth, all its death.”Soldier entering the Ohrdruf Concentration Camp.

Of course they will ignore it like the vampire doesn't want any garlic near him and like devil hates the Cross. I am from the same town with Nadjari, and I know a lot about his story for almost 30 years now, I am watching closely. [...]What he brought is the ULTIMATE and ABSOLUTE PROOF, so poor little deniers have to do the usual flip-flop. Go on, perform for us, it's always a pleasure to watch them embarrassing themselves.

Of course they will ignore it like the vampire doesn't want any garlic near him and like devil hates the Cross. I am from the same town with Nadjari, and I know a lot about his story for almost 30 years now, I am watching closely. [...]What he brought is the ULTIMATE and ABSOLUTE PROOF, so poor little deniers have to do the usual flip-flop. Go on, perform for us, it's always a pleasure to watch them embarrassing themselves.

Yeah, I couldn’t help myself. I left a comment.

“Today I saw one of those places, saw it in all of its horror, all its filth, all its death.”Soldier entering the Ohrdruf Concentration Camp.

An alleged letter by Marcel Nadjari included the allegations that 3,000 people were gassed simultaneously in a single gas chamber, that the cremation produced 0.64 kg (1.41 lbs) of remains per corpse, that the bone remains were partially crushed and the remains dumped into a river, and that the corpses were cremated without using fuel. Holocaust revisionists have argued that far lower numbers than 3,000 cannot have been gassed simultaneously in a single gas chamber, that cremation produce much more remains than 0.64 kg per corpse, that even if using this low remains claim this would mean that 1,000 tons of partially crushed bone were dumped in the river (which should leave detectable traces, especially as partially crushed bones would leave recognizable fragments of bone in the river), and that cremations without fuel are impossible (if it was possible to burn a whole corpse without fuel, then this would solve a major problem for India, which is the massive firewood requirement for funeral pyres, which has almost completely denuded India of wood).[3][4]

Do you think you can provide a refutation? I really want to bring up this piece of evidence in my online-debates with deniers, but I know it will be called fake and I am not sure how to defend it.

The no fuel thing is easy to explain and is not as weird as may seem. Obviously it doesn't mean no fuel at all. It means fuel would be used to bring the ovens to the state where they were hot enough to bring the fat out of the newly introduced corpses and simultaneously dehydrate them, with the fat now serving as the main fuel, with a little bit of coke to be added now and then. This is similar to a process described in one of the Topf patents.

Sergey_Romanov wrote:The no fuel thing is easy to explain and is not as weird as may seem. Obviously it doesn't mean no fuel at all. It means fuel would be used to bring the ovens to the state where they were hot enough to bring the fat out of the newly introduced corpses and simultaneously dehydrate them, with the fat now serving as the main fuel, with a little bit of coke to be added now and then. This is similar to a process described in one of the Topf patents.

What bothers me more is the figure of 3000 people in a gas chamber. This figure will be laughed at by deniers and they will discredit the whole memoir as fake.

I wonder if Nadjari did not exaggerate with this figure. He did after all wrote this letter to his family, and not as academic work.Or maybe this figure is accurate after all?

Oozy, do you have a reference to exactly what Nadjari wrote? I looked briefly and couldn’t find it.

If the best the deniers have is perhaps faulty “crowd size” estimates from one of the Sonderkommando members, their argument is worse than weak. Witnesses often make mistakes on measurements, numbers of people, and the like.

Anyway, Pressac, in his section on Kremas II/III, has already written, “Franke-Gricksch visited Krematorium II and is supposed to have witnessed the gassing of those unfit for work from a convoy of 2,930 Greek Jews (from the Salonika ghetto).“ In other places, Pressac mentions the 2,000 figure for II/III. Not surprisingly, the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum official history of the camp uses the same figure of about 2,000 for these chambers. Greif, in the talk I heard this past week, used an estimate of 2,500 for these gas chambers, which is the figure deathcamps.org has long used (not that death camps.org is reliable, but that the number has been “out there”). It is important to remember that most of the time transports carried more on the order of 1,000 or so Jews each to the camp and that the higher figures pertain to capacity (usually 2,000) and to what happened during intense periods like the Ungarnaktion.

You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Oozy, do you have a reference to exactly what Nadjari wrote? I looked briefly and couldn’t find it.

If the best the deniers have is perhaps faulty “crowd size” estimates from one of the Sonderkommando members, their argument is worse than weak. Witnesses often make mistakes on measurements, numbers of people, and the like.

Anyway, Pressac, in his section on Kremas II/III, has already written, “Franke-Gricksch visited Krematorium II and is supposed to have witnessed the gassing of those unfit for work from a convoy of 2,930 Greek Jews (from the Salonika ghetto).“ In other places, Pressac mentions the 2,000 figure for II/III. Not surprisingly, the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum official history of the camp uses the same figure of about 2,000 for these chambers. Greif, in the talk I heard this past week, used an estimate of 2,500 for these gas chambers, which is the figure deathcamps.org has long used (not that death camps.org is reliable, but that the number has been “out there”). It is important to remember that most of the time transports carried more on the order of 1,000 or so Jews each to the camp and that the higher figures pertain to capacity (usually 2,000) and to what happened during intense periods like the Ungarnaktion.

I have seen smaller victim counts, Hans Aumier recounted that they would kill 800 people in Krema II and III. So its not like there isn't smaller figures Balsamo.

Also from memory the figures Pressac really liked were 1000 and 1500 when talking about the amount of zyklon-b used in Krema II and III. I believe he didn't actually think they could kill 2000 people though.

Pressac includes Bendel's testimony which includes this: "In Crematoria 1 [II) and 2 [III], 2,000 into each; Crematoria 3 [IV] and 4 [V), 1,000 each: and into the Bunker [2/V], 1,000." He also wrote, in reply to Faurisson, that a gassing required "5 to 7kg of Zyklon-B for 1,000 to 2,000 persons." Here he implies 2,000: "During Prüfer and Schulze’s stay at the camp, almost 2,000 Jews from the Saloniki ghetto were gassed on 24th and a further 1,200 on 25th. The two engineers must have witnessed this, in view of their degree of involvement in the homicidal installations of Krematorium II." Elsewhere he discusses (I can't find the exact quotation right now) a reduction from 2,000 to 1,000 in a "standard" batch to optimize cremation and prevent breakdowns of the ovens (I think).

You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

Denying-History wrote:I have seen smaller victim counts, Hans Aumier recounted that they would kill 800 people in Krema II and III. So its not like there isn't smaller figures Balsamo.

Also from memory the figures Pressac really liked were 1000 and 1500 when talking about the amount of zyklon-b used in Krema II and III. I believe he didn't actually think they could kill 2000 people though.

You mean Hans Aumeier, right?But he was an SS, so i discarded it. But of course, not all convoy were equal, so it could happen that in some cases both Krema II and III were used to kill "only" 800; sometimes it woulb be between 1000 and 1500, i focus on the maximal capacity required during the Hungarian Aktion...

As noted above, and as Balsamo says in his post, my understanding is that most times (for example, not during the Ungarnaktion) about 1,000 Jews (give or take some 100s) were gassed at a time, according to Pressac and other sources. The large totals often mentioned relate to capacity, which was also reached at times when the Hungarian transports came to the camp.

You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

It is a big building with a wide chimney and 15 ovens. Below a garden there are two big endless rooms in the basement. The one serves for undressing and the other is the death chamber, where the people enter naked and after filled with about 3000 people, it is closed and they gas them, where they gave up the ghost after 6 to 7 minutes of martyrdom.

Is there a person, (other than for example, Police Commissioners and Generals with some 40 years experience in dealing with public gatherings, rallies, marches etc) that can easily evaluate and count such large concentrations of people, especially in small and tight places, and especially under constant terror and fear, as it was the case with SK?

Can any ordinary person who just looks at heavy crowd come with a number even close to hundreds plus or minus?I'm seeing footage of drones from rallies, and I can't say if they are 1.000 or 2.000 or 5.000, it's impossible for me since I have no experience. Why should be such an easy job for a SK who lives only for the next minute in his endless fear?

Is there a person, (other than for example, Police Commissioners and Generals with some 40 years experience in dealing with public gatherings, rallies, marches etc) that can easily evaluate and count such large concentrations of people, especially in small and tight places, and especially under constant terror and fear, as it was the case with SK?

Can any ordinary person who just looks at heavy crowd come with a number even close to hundreds plus or minus?I'm seeing footage of drones from rallies, and I can't say if they are 1.000 or 2.000 or 5.000, it's impossible for me since I have no experience. Why should be such an easy job for a SK who lives only for the next minute in his endless fear?

I agree. I don't think it was possible for Nadjari to accurately estimate how many people can be crowded inside the chamber. It could have been 1000 or 2000 and he exaggerated and wrote 3000 either in porpuse or not.

Unfortunately, as I know deniers, you cannot talk with them with reason. If Nadjari wrote 3000 and it seems out-of-place then the only conclusion for them is that the memoir was fabricated by the Soviets.. yep.And furthermore they may say "Since this memoir is fake then all evidence are fake", and they will rule out the entire Holocaust based on this 3000 figure.

- [...] says in the same sentence that it is a forgery which contains lies (something about the word 'garden' that Nadjari used, and something about the capacity of the basements or gas chambers).

Not to mention he can't explain why the 'forgers' have to wait 37 years to perform their 'deception' (the fact that in the 80s the technology wasn't available it means a lot for all normal people, but it doesn't mean a thing for any denier, and that is OK because real issues, facts and reason make sense only for real intellectuals, not these stupid kids).But he claims in a very serious tone that in the same time the Jews forged something, only to include inconsistencies inside it (which the great truth-seeker Worm caught them in an eye-blink), and these two elements are in fact his case:

Totally illogical: Both a forgery and a pack of lies, which contradicts each other, for a reasonable person. If they forged it, why did they leave such inconsistencies?

Yeah I'd say the deniers are at a dead end here. It cannot be a Soviet forgery, because then it would not have been dug out of the ground (unless somehow the Soviets decided to bury it there during the liberation of Auschwitz.)On the other hand it cannot be modern forgery because, as you say, why wait 37 years and put so much effort into it if it could have been revealed right away in 1980?

So at the bottom line the deniers would have to admit this document was written during war-time and was buried in Auschwitz and then got extracted from the ground and deciphered decades later ..

Is there a person, (other than for example, Police Commissioners and Generals with some 40 years experience in dealing with public gatherings, rallies, marches etc) that can easily evaluate and count such large concentrations of people, especially in small and tight places, and especially under constant terror and fear, as it was the case with SK?

Can any ordinary person who just looks at heavy crowd come with a number even close to hundreds plus or minus?I'm seeing footage of drones from rallies, and I can't say if they are 1.000 or 2.000 or 5.000, it's impossible for me since I have no experience. Why should be such an easy job for a SK who lives only for the next minute in his endless fear?

I agree. I don't think it was possible for Nadjari to accurately estimate how many people can be crowded inside the chamber. It could have been 1000 or 2000 and he exaggerated and wrote 3000 either in porpuse or not.

Unfortunately, as I know deniers, you cannot talk with them with reason. If Nadjari wrote 3000 and it seems out-of-place then the only conclusion for them is that the memoir was fabricated by the Soviets.. yep.And furthermore they may say "Since this memoir is fake then all evidence are fake", and they will rule out the entire Holocaust based on this 3000 figure.

But if the Reds forged it, or someone else forged it, buried it and later retrieved it, why didn't they make sure that a) it matched well with what other "forgeries" say and 2) the number used was accurate in terms of the "fake" gas chamber? Bad forgers!

You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

Sort of reminds me of the "How many sweets in the jar" game. People have great difficulty estimating amounts and sizes. It doesn't mean that the jar never existed if the estimation of the amount of sweets inside was way out!

3000/200=merely 15 persons per square meter. With some trying, and provided there were lots of children, one could fit even more (like 4000) in there.Didn't mean they did, bit there really is no problem.

Worm (as Kleon called him) keeps repeating at Rodoh, "fitting 3,000 into any of the alleged gas chambers is impossible" without providing any substantiation for this and without sharing any thoughts for why he says this.

In all honesty, this line of criticism is just inane. To begin with, what Nadjari wrote was "filled with about 3000 people" - not that the chamber would certainly be filled with precisely 3,000 individuals. "About" already signals he's giving an estimate. Secondly, all the other comments in this thread, which Kleon's done a nice job summarizing, make the Rodoh thread look silly - Nessie isn't helping, but that's what Nessie does, not help.

Anyway, nice to see Duke Umeroffen posting.

You know, my dear Colonel General, I don't really believe that the Russians will attack at all. It's all an enormous bluff. - Heinrich Himmler to Heinz Guderian, December 1944

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Worm (as Kleon called him) keeps repeating at Rodoh, "fitting 3,000 into any of the alleged gas chambers is impossible" without providing any substantiation for this and without sharing any thoughts for why he says this.

In all honesty, this line of criticism is just inane. To begin with, what Nadjari wrote was "filled with about 3000 people" - not that the chamber would certainly be filled with precisely 3,000 individuals. "About" already signals he's giving an estimate. Secondly, all the other comments in this thread, which Kleon's done a nice job summarizing, make the Rodoh thread look silly - Nessie isn't helping, but that's what Nessie does, not help.

Anyway, nice to see Duke Umeroffen posting.

The Duke is a diamond geezer.

Never been a fan of the numbers gambit. If it's more, it is, if it's less, it is.... either way, it it is.

Sergey_Romanov wrote:3000/200=merely 15 persons per square meter. With some trying, and provided there were lots of children, one could fit even more (like 4000) in there.Didn't mean they did, bit there really is no problem.

Wasn't there an experiment or something by a denier (or 'doubter', can't recall) who used his kids and constructed kind of small booths, filling one of them with his family and friends, and finally admitting that his doubts were with no base at all?

I'm sure members of the forum here know this story, just can't know how to search for it, I don't remember names etc. He was in the beginning like 'no way 700 people inside this and that', and he end up like 'of course it's possible 700 people' etc.

Sergey_Romanov wrote:3000/200=merely 15 persons per square meter. With some trying, and provided there were lots of children, one could fit even more (like 4000) in there.Didn't mean they did, bit there really is no problem.

Wasn't there an experiment or something by a denier (or 'doubter', can't recall) who used his kids and constructed kind of small booths, filling one of them with his family and friends, and finally admitting that his doubts were with no base at all?

I'm sure members of the forum here know this story, just can't know how to search for it, I don't remember names etc. He was in the beginning like 'no way 700 people inside this and that', and he end up like 'of course it's possible 700 people' etc.

Sergey_Romanov wrote:3000/200=merely 15 persons per square meter. With some trying, and provided there were lots of children, one could fit even more (like 4000) in there.Didn't mean they did, bit there really is no problem.

Wasn't there an experiment or something by a denier (or 'doubter', can't recall) who used his kids and constructed kind of small booths, filling one of them with his family and friends, and finally admitting that his doubts were with no base at all?

I'm sure members of the forum here know this story, just can't know how to search for it, I don't remember names etc. He was in the beginning like 'no way 700 people inside this and that', and he end up like 'of course it's possible 700 people' etc.