Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Can a priest serve a Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts alone? If not, why not?

Enlighten me.

I asked you the question, and the least you can do is answer it.

I do not know the answer.

I asked you a question and you ignored it.

I did not ignore the question. I responded to your assertion that the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts is not a Liturgy.

If you do not know the answer to the question of whether this service can be conducted by a priest alone, then ask your priest, if you're honest about finding the answer, and not simply being a contrarian as you so often are on this forum. While you're at it, you could also ask him whether or not this service is a Liturgy.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

While you will very rarely witness it in the Church in which you inquiring, the Liturgy of St. James is the most commonly celebrated liturgy of the Syriac Orthodox Church, which still celebrates it in the Syriac language (plus whatever the native language of the congregation is, of course; generally Arabic, Malayalam, and/or English -- here is a clip in mostly English from the Indian Syriacs in America, for instance, except for the Syriac phrases "barekhmor"/Lord bless and "Showe w zodek"/meet and right).

I missed the part he asked about Oriental Orthodoxy.

But you didn't miss where the Liturgy of St. James was discussed. The above is an interesting note building on one of the on-topic replies.

The Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts is indeed a "Liturgy" (and is sometimes referred to as the Liturgy of St. Gregory the Dialogist - a.k.a. St. Gregory the Great, Pope of Rome). While missing a consecration, it includes other elements common to the Liturgy:

- scripture reading- thanksgiving- reception of Holy Communion

Unlike vespers the priest is to be fully vested (the only times a priest fully vests for vespers is for a Vesperal Liturgy or during Bright Week); unlike Vespers there is the entrance of the gifts; unlike vespers there is reception of the gifts; unlike Vespers ordination can take place during the service (only to the Deaconate). It stands as a bit of a paradox: a Liturgy for non-liturgical days. But in our tradition it is a Liturgy nonetheless.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

While missing a consecration, it includes other elements common to the Liturgy:

- scripture reading

Like almost any other service.

Hardly. Lots of services use passages of Scripture, but I suspect Fr George has in mind the lectionary readings, which are a characteristic of Liturgies and, in some cases, certain of the canonical hours.

Quote

Quote

- thanksgiving

Not sure what you mean by that.

Quote

- reception of Holy Communion

Like mentioned by me giving Eucharist to the sick, or typica or baptisms mentioned by some other users on the board.

I don't know what Fr George had in mind re: thanksgiving. Certainly I can't remember any thanksgiving as it is done in the anaphora. But there is the thanksgiving after Communion, not to mention the rites beginning at "Holies for the holy", which are basically lifted straight from the usual Eucharistic Liturgy and, to the best of my knowledge, do not occur in Typika, sick visits, etc.

While missing a consecration, it includes other elements common to the Liturgy:

- scripture reading

Like almost any other service.

Hardly. Lots of services use passages of Scripture, but I suspect Fr George has in mind the lectionary readings, which are a characteristic of Liturgies and, in some cases, certain of the canonical hours.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

The Eucharistic Liturgies, including the Presanctified, have readings assigned in the Lectionary.

The Vespers and Matins for certain feasts may have readings (whether they're taken or not is another story), but by no means do the daily services have regular readings outside of Great Lent.

The rites for the other sacraments usually have their own readings assigned to the service and not to the day. And services such as the Paraclesis have a reading or two, but I've seen it skipped as often as I've seen it taken (I've also seen readings skipped when visiting the sick if the circumstances require), so I don't think you can say much based on this.

The Eucharistic Liturgies, including the Presanctified, have readings assigned in the Lectionary.

The Vespers and Matins for certain feasts may have readings (whether they're taken or not is another story), but by no means do the daily services have regular readings outside of Great Lent.

The rites for the other sacraments usually have their own readings assigned to the service and not to the day. And services such as the Paraclesis have a reading or two, but I've seen it skipped as often as I've seen it taken (I've also seen readings skipped when visiting the sick if the circumstances require), so I don't think you can say much based on this.

So there is a difference between calendar reading and set reading during the service (like in marriage fro example)?

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

So there is a difference between calendar reading and set reading during the service (like in marriage fro example)?

I guess my argument would be that the readings in the Lectionary are assigned to be read at Liturgies, and so their presence at Presanctified argues for its "Liturgical" status. My strong hunch, though I will admit needing to go back to my books to confirm this, is that readings entered the other rites as they were separated from the Liturgy: otherwise it wouldn't be so difficult to substitute the readings for the day with readings for the occasion, or to read both sets, or some other solution. In the Byzantine rite, the services for at least some of the sacraments retain other "Eucharistic" elements that would argue for a link between these and the Divine Liturgy. This makes sense because the Eucharist is what completes the other sacraments.

Moreover, I would argue that, despite our common restriction of the term "Liturgy" to the Eucharist, there are other services that are "liturgy" (e.g., the canonical hours and the sacraments).

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

I don't know if that's an official term, I suspect not. Under "Eucharistic services", I suppose you could group together the Liturgies but also rites like the administration of Communion to the sick and homebound, "Typika with Communion" (I don't know if there is such a thing officially, but I've heard of it being done here and there in rare circumstances), etc. All Liturgies would be "Eucharistic services", but not all "Eucharistic services" would be Liturgies.

How much of the reticence to ascribe "Liturgy" status to the Presanctified on the basis of a lack of consecration has to do with the difference between Slavic and Greek views of whether the wine gets consecrated? The latter view is that the Body sanctifies and consecrates the wine to become the Blood, which is an atypical form of consecration, but a consecration all the same. This is the same principle behind the Syriac Orthodox equivalent of the Presanctified Liturgy, called Roshem Kozo (The Signing of the Chalice): the wine in the chalice is blessed by the Body, a fraction of which is immersed within it, effecting the consecration. If the Slavs adopted a more Western view leaning toward non-consecration of the wine, I suppose that's another way of looking at it: whether or not it's correct, however, has no bearing on whether the service is considered a Liturgy. The service books themselves describe it as such.

How much of the reticence to ascribe "Liturgy" status to the Presanctified on the basis of a lack of consecration has to do with the difference between Slavic and Greek views of whether the wine gets consecrated?

Not that I purposely disagree with what you wrote above but do not get start on that

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.

How much of the reticence to ascribe "Liturgy" status to the Presanctified on the basis of a lack of consecration has to do with the difference between Slavic and Greek views of whether the wine gets consecrated?

Not that I purposely disagree with what you wrote above but do not get start on that

The service is titled the Divine Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts in the Liturgikon.

The wine is consecrated when the presanctified bread and wine and dropped into it before Communion. It is just like when multiple chalices are used. The celebrant pours a little of the consecrated wine into each chalice. That consecrates the wine in the chalice. During the Divine Liturgy, only the Lamb is actually consecrated the particle for the Theotokos, the various ranks of saints and the living and dead are not consecrated. That is why they are poured into the Chalice after Communion. For that reason, the Priest or Deacon takes Communion as usual during the Presanctified Divine Liturgy, also called the Divine Liturgy of St. Gregory Dialogus.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who can watch the watchmen?"No one is paying attention to your post reports"Why do posters that claim to have me blocked keep sending me pms and responding to my posts? That makes no sense.