I more or less agree with the points on why the S65 is a better engine than the 3.4l Porsche f6, but it bears mentioning that Porsche provides more or less equal performance with less displacement, two less cylinders, and a heck of a lot better fuel economy.

if you step up to even the worst GT3 engine, the 3.6, it is better than the S65 in pretty much every category already mentioned, IMO. maybe we can quibble on reliability because of the RMS/IMS issue. and price, since the engine only comes in a car whose msrp is 2x that of the M3

the GT3 motor does achieve more power with less displacement, but that's not what has been debated. the Carrera motors are what we're talking about here since they're at least in the same stratosphere in terms of price, and in fact they don't provide any more hp/liter than the S65. even the FI motors that premiered in 2009 (two years after the S65 did) provide just slightly less hp/liter than the S65, and they do so even with the benefit of direct injection.

345 hp / 3.6L = 95.8 hp/liter
385 hp / 3.8L = 101.3 hp/liter

414 hp / 4.0L = 103.5 hp/liter

clearly the GT3RS 4.0's 125 hp per liter (500 total) is in an entirely different league and quite an achievement, but again, considering the price tag on that, it's not worth debating.

as I said in my first post, the Carrera motors do win in terms of fuel efficiency. however, that trade-off is both unsurprising and well worth it when you consider the improved throttle response and flatter torque curve of the S65 (which is due in part to the individual TB's).

please just stop. I will again point out your misstatements, but this is the last time as I'm done debating with you.

first, you did in fact make it personal when you insulted my reading comprehension, which is unnecessary and also ridiculous considering you were wrong about what you actually said. my last post proved that. second, I know that you meant concede - did you not read what I just wrote? it's just embarrassing for you because not only is succede not a word (sorry to bring up improper vocabulary, but you were the one who turned this personal), but admitting that you called the 991's motor into question is only proving my point that you were wrong when you said you never brought it up.

Again, I meant to use the word cede, not concede. They are synonyms.
So you are wrong...I didnt mean to use concede, but had originally meant to type "you so cede...". Not "you concede". There is a difference in words not in meaning.
One more time, typing on a phone doesnt always yield proper grammar as I tend to like to keep grammar at least somewhat decent when typing on a forum that tends not to care much.

the GT3 motor does achieve more power with less displacement, but that's not what has been debated. the Carrera motors are what we're talking about here since they're at least in the same stratosphere in terms of price, and in fact they don't provide any more hp/liter than the S65. even the FI motors that premiered in 2009 (two years after the S65 did) provide just slightly less hp/liter than the S65, and they do so even with the benefit of direct injection.

345 hp / 3.6L = 95.8 hp/liter
385 hp / 3.8L = 101.3 hp/liter

414 hp / 4.0L = 103.5 hp/liter

clearly the GT3RS 4.0's 125 hp per liter (500 total) is in an entirely different league and quite an achievement, but again, considering the price tag on that, it's not worth debating.

as I said in my first post, the Carrera motors do win in terms of fuel efficiency. however, that trade-off is both unsurprising and well worth it when you consider the improved throttle response and flatter torque curve of the S65 (which is due in part to the individual TB's).

Here is a valid point. What are the crate costs of all these motors?

I know a 4.0 is quite expensive, but last I remember a 3.6/3.8 GT3 block isnt much difference in price AS A CRATE MOTOR compared to the S65. Both run about 30K IIRC.

I know a 4.0 is quite expensive, but last I remember a 3.6/3.8 GT3 block isnt much difference in price AS A CRATE MOTOR compared to the S65. Both run about 30K IIRC.

I agree that is a valid point to debate. however, at first you were ignoring price for these cars overall and saying that it is fair to compare a GT3 with an M3. so, suddenly introducing the price argument into the equation is a flip-flop on your part, and you're clearly just arguing anything that you can get to agree with your case, rather than what's right and fair.

I wouldn't know where to look up those costs so that we're looking at real numbers, but if it's true that the motors cost about the same, then suddenly the 911 chassis and body become even more expensive relative to the M3. I have always loved 911's, but they are WAY over-priced for what Porsche charges. especially now. however, I digress. the S65 should cost as much as the carrera engines as it's a far superior motor IMO. if you look at it that way, consider what an amazing chassis BMW is offering for $30k.

Been there and done that. While a very nice car, the 997.1/997.2 Carrera S isn't any better than your M3. The 997 GT cars are the ones to lust after. There is not a single thing I liked better about my former 997S over my former E92M3.

I agree that is a valid point to debate. however, at first you were ignoring price for these cars overall and saying that it is fair to compare a GT3 with an M3. so, suddenly introducing the price argument into the equation is a flip-flop on your part, and you're clearly just arguing anything that you can get to agree with your case, rather than what's right and fair.

I wouldn't know where to look up those costs so that we're looking at real numbers, but if it's true that the motors cost about the same, then suddenly the 911 chassis and body become even more expensive relative to the M3. I have always loved 911's, but they are WAY over-priced for what Porsche charges. especially now. however, I digress. the S65 should cost as much as the carrera engines as it's a far superior motor IMO. if you look at it that way, consider what an amazing chassis BMW is offering for $30k.

I never said it was fair to compare new price vs. new price...because it flat out is not. Hard to argue prices though because its dependant on so many variables especially when BWMs market is primarily >100K and Porsche's is 100K+. i.e. how much is due to better quality, rarity, or simply just the mark up of a higher end brand.
Porsche's are expensive and overpriced a bit, but I think Ferraris and Lambos and the like all are way, way overpriced (and most is simply due to lower production numbers)...frankly everything these days is overpriced, our M3s included...they are a bargain next to most other cars that are much higher priced. You could easily make the same arguement for the M3 GTS and how much youre paying for that same chasis vs. motor etc...now compare that car to a GT3 and things are clearer in terms of overall price.

Been there and done that. While a very nice car, the 997.1/997.2 Carrera S isn't any better than your M3. The 997 GT cars are the ones to lust after. There is not a single thing I liked better about my former 997S over my former E92M3.

Totally agree! The music produced by the S65 in my M3 beats the sound in the 991 C2S hands down. Regular 911s don't sound all that good. U will need at least a 997 GT3 or a Turbo for that. When test driving the 991, i kept getting irritated by the induction note of their latest flat 6 and din think i was willing to trade in my S65 for that no matter how quick it goes around a track.

Turbo? The turbos sound worse than the engines in the carreras. The GT3 engines are by far the best then the 3.8 carrera's are next. I still like the sound of the e46 inline 6 over the S65 v8.

i'm sure that someone can chime in with how much an S65 costs, but i've been told a replacement Carrera engine is about $30k, while a GT3 engine is $45-50k. take this with a pinch of salt because i only read it from a Porsche forum. it's probably way more than the S65, regardless. and Porsche will never win a value for money competition with BMW. with Ferrari, it could

i'm sure that someone can chime in with how much an S65 costs, but i've been told a replacement Carrera engine is about $30k, while a GT3 engine is $45-50k. take this with a pinch of salt because i only read it from a Porsche forum. it's probably way more than the S65, regardless. and Porsche will never win a value for money competition with BMW. with Ferrari, it could

It's my understanding from this forum that an S65 engine is approximately $25k.

i have owned both 997 and now m3. I can say they are really different cars. Although I miss the 997, the M3 keeps me content. The M3 is more sudued and more appropiate for DD. M3 may have more power and bigger engine, but the 997 is quick and feels light. i am dying to get a 991 now.... The 997 is more rewarding as you already know it. What comes down is how you feel connected when you drive the car, so really you just have to take it for a test drive and determine it for yourself.

I drove the 997.1 and 997.2 back to back with the M3. I liked the .2 engine better than the .1, had significantly more power but I felt that the S65 had a slightly better throttle response. Not by a huge margin, but the advantage was there. I also thought it likes to rev more than either of the Porsche engines and was smoother in the process.

When talking about fuel economy, I hope you guys are taking into consideration the huge weight difference as well as the aero considerations. Is the Porsche engine really more fuel efficient or just powering a much smaller/lighter car? We'll probably never know?

Considering the price difference, I think the S65 is an incredible achievement. I think if BMW had dropped it into a 3200lbs chassis they would have killed the non-GT3 performance wise. I'm a little bummed that they didn't and that they show no intention to compete in this category.

Anyway, I loved how connected to the driver the 997.2 was and how direct the steering and transmission felt. If I could justify the $30,000 price difference, I'd probably buy one - then again for that much money I could simply buy a used Cayman and turn it into a much better track car than either the 911S or E90 M3, all the while keeping my bimmer.

I drove the 997.1 and 997.2 back to back with the M3. I liked the .2 engine better than the .1, had significantly more power but I felt that the S65 had a slightly better throttle response. Not by a huge margin, but the advantage was there. I also thought it likes to rev more than either of the Porsche engines and was smoother in the process.

When talking about fuel economy, I hope you guys are taking into consideration the huge weight difference as well as the aero considerations. Is the Porsche engine really more fuel efficient or just powering a much smaller/lighter car? We'll probably never know?

Considering the price difference, I think the S65 is an incredible achievement. I think if BMW had dropped it into a 3200lbs chassis they would have killed the non-GT3 performance wise. I'm a little bummed that they didn't and that they show no intention to compete in this category.

Anyway, I loved how connected to the driver the 997.2 was and how direct the steering and transmission felt. If I could justify the $30,000 price difference, I'd probably buy one - then again for that much money I could simply buy a used Cayman and turn it into a much better track car than either the 911S or E90 M3, all the while keeping my bimmer.

Fair assessment, but dont think dropping to 3200 lbs it would do anything other than lessen the performance gap considering the size of the gap as is. Basing that on the fact that the M3 GTS barely edges out a 997.2S in performance despite having 444 hp and down to 3300 lbs.

this is pathetic. why don't we compare the S65 to Ferrari's best engine of all time while we're at it? there comes a point at which two cars are in such vastly different price categories that they can't be compared with any expectation of fairness. the GT3 is essentially twice as expensive as the M3. do you really still think that this is apples to apples? how convenient that you write off the P-car that is less expensive (though still in a materially higher price category) as opposed to acknowledging that BMW has a much better engine, and at a lower price point to boot. and the 991 motor was excluded because that came out 6 years after the S65. please go enjoy your Porsche and don't bother posting such nonsense.

but while you brought it up, the torque curve on the GT3 motors is not as flat as the S65, contrary to what you said.

Anyone who would rather have an M3 than a 911 is an uneducated fool and thats a fact. The 911 is one of the best if not the best sportscar ever build. The M3 is a heavy, modified 3 series designed for middle aged business men to haul their kids and fat wife around in. If you think the M3 is better than you're a poor ass peasant and probably a shitty driver. Man up and get a Porsche... You're welcome M3 forums.

Debating on which cars/engine are better aside..the obvious fact is that the engine placements on the Porsche and M3 being at different ends of the car means that any real comparison of how these cars drive and feel is going to be vastly unfair.