on Thursday the United States for the first time will begin cleaning up dioxin from Agent Orange

For the first time... Ahahahaha. It's so hideously disgusting that we're just now doing it that I can't help but laugh at the mindless brutality. But why now, why do we suddenly see these people as human?

---The $43 million project begins as Vietnam and the United States forge closer ties to boost trade and counter China's rising influence in the disputed South China Sea.

Oh. Haha. We still don't care, but we can use them again. Now the pieces are falling into place for Cold War 2.0. Sweeet.

qualtrough:alex10294: Article contains no facts or evidence. Does any actually exist? Heart-string-pulling is not a substitute for controlled epidemiological studies.

/Seriously wants to know if anyone has done a blood/soil concentration vs effect map in a serious, controlled way.

I live with my mom Nobody can be this ignorant.

It's a rather predictable right-leaning response to dumping poison all over a people - demand some huge study they can't afford and cite the lack of such evidence as evidence that poison is not poison.

tinfoil-hat maggie:Gyrfalcon: Schlong Uzi: TFA: "The $43 million project begins as Vietnam and the United States forge closer ties to boost trade and counter China's rising influence in the disputed South China Sea."

If we'd spent the same amount to do the same thing 50 years ago we would have done a lot more to accomplish that goal.

Captain_Ballbeard:qualtrough: alex10294: Article contains no facts or evidence. Does any actually exist? Heart-string-pulling is not a substitute for controlled epidemiological studies.

/Seriously wants to know if anyone has done a blood/soil concentration vs effect map in a serious, controlled way.

I live with my mom Nobody can be this ignorant.

It's a rather predictable right-leaning response to dumping poison all over a people - demand some huge study they can't afford and cite the lack of such evidence as evidence that poison is not poison.

Yea pretty much, I mean how could anybody miss these statements.FTFA:The family lives in a two-story house near a former U.S. military base in Danang where the defoliant Agent Orange was stored during the Vietnam WarDioxin, a persistent chemical linked to cancer, birth defects and other disabilities, has seeped into Vietnam's soils and watersheds, creating a lasting war legacy

Gyrfalcon:tinfoil-hat maggie: Gyrfalcon: Schlong Uzi: TFA: "The $43 million project begins as Vietnam and the United States forge closer ties to boost trade and counter China's rising influence in the disputed South China Sea."

If we'd spent the same amount to do the same thing 50 years ago we would have done a lot more to accomplish that goal.

So you're saying all we have to do is lose or leave and in 40-50 years they'll like us?:)

The odds are better than staying, yeah.

I concur, I just hope everything I've read about DU munitions is wrong, or people will be having a similar discussions 40+ years from now, well if there's still people./Not hopeful on the last bit.// I am just feeling more pessimistic than normal though.

tinfoil-hat maggie:robohobo: tinfoil-hat maggie:Dioxin, a persistent chemical linked to cancer, birth defects and other disabilities, has seeped into Vietnam's soils and watersheds, creating a lasting war legacy

robohobo:tinfoil-hat maggie: robohobo: tinfoil-hat maggie:Dioxin, a persistent chemical linked to cancer, birth defects and other disabilities, has seeped into Vietnam's soils and watersheds, creating a lasting war legacy

qualtrough:alex10294: Article contains no facts or evidence. Does any actually exist? Heart-string-pulling is not a substitute for controlled epidemiological studies.

/Seriously wants to know if anyone has done a blood/soil concentration vs effect map in a serious, controlled way.

I live with my mom Nobody can be this ignorant.

So, do you have a peer reviewed article that does what I've said? All I can find is stuff that the Vietnamese government themselves published, with no epidemiological data and seemingly no serious controls. The WIKI article, usually a good source for finding serious data in the footnotes, links to two Vietnamese government studies, and a BBC article that refers to the same studies. Consider whether you'd find it likely that Vietnam would publish a story saying everything is fine. That's why I was asking if there's any serious, peer-reviewed, well controlled epidemiological study that I could rely on.

If *I* was going to do the study, I'd take about 5000 soil samples, 500 blood samples, and 500 breast milk samples, say 100/10/10 each in 50 villages of 10k people or more. Then I'd separately (without knowing yet which areas had the highest levels), get the best data on all of the endpoints I'd like to test (cleft lip, retardation, etc) from each village. Then I'd do an analysis comparing concentration to the endpoints, controlling for poverty/other known exposures. If the Agent Orange was causing any of these, I'd expect to see a graph with a linear or exponential rise in those cases with concentration of the toxin.

Has that study been done by someone who doesn't have a financial/diplomatic stake in the outcome? It wouldn't be that expensive. If it exists, I'd really like to see it. I'm LOOKING to be convinced.

/Really, I want someone to show me good data, so I can be on the right side of this, either way.

luktti:It was a war we were not allowed to win.Had a friend that did night patrols.Would not travel any jungle for days after it was sprayed.

It was a holding action. We left when Kissinger bribed the Chicom off with Haber Bosch and tungsten had been sourced elsewhere. We never gave a fark about anything other than the resources there. Somewhere, I have a transcript of a US Senate debate about Vietnam which took place years before we actually went to war there.

It was all about light bulbs. Specifically, that tiny little piece of wire filament - tungsten.

Go figure that Sylvania and GE led the way. While they were billing the US Govt for billions in defense contracts, the US Govt was helping them source and secure tungsten elsewhere. When the Chicom took Kissinger's bribe and got Haber Bosch, our tungsten problems were solved.

Viet Nam is losing 2-3 casualties/day from the land mines we so generously left them after defending them. Defending them from an agreed-upon national plebiscite for national reunification.

==========

The materials in Agent Orange were both remarkably teratogenic and remarkably stable. Great numbers of Vets and their children were greatly harmed merely handling the stuff. Being at the receiving end, it stands to reason, would have to be far worse.

We yell and bomb countries if we think they even have a trace of chemical warfare agents and 40 year later we're barely able to acknowledge our own use of it and the company who help make it puts genetically modified food on our tables.