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Late response is late, but those two situations are only vaguely similar, in that the group members aren't strictly listed by name (like "Kyrie's group" in EP4). The differences, which are pretty meaty, are that
1. "everyone else" is a group that should comprise of people who aren't in either of the other two groups, which cumulatively account for all 18 people, and
2. "everyone else" is resolved with Shkanonigans, which I wasn't aware Kyrie had access to.

I am talking about the general LOLred-trickery that could be applied.

The narrative implied that "everyone else" means Rudolf, Krauss, Jessica, a few others I can't remember, and, as we are led to believe, Kanon. Because the red didn't name each of them it was possible for Kanon to "escape", since "he" was never there to begin with, at least not as a human being in a world without magic. Due to the imprecise nature of this red, one person that we thought was included in the red statement... wasn't.

The red for 'the six that were killed' doesn't name each of them, but by the narrative we assume that it's about Kyrie, Rudolf, Krauss, Natsuhi, Eva, Hideyoshi. With a heavy load (!) of assumptions (which are ultimately all bullshit anyway considering that it's not an intended answer) we can construct Kinzo as the sixth, therefore the red is not accounting for the "seventh" person. Due to the imprecise nature of this red one person can be added to the situation, enabling a person that we thought was included in red the statement to "escape" the red-proclaimed death (without going all meta).

At least I think that it's a similar mechanism. Or it would be one, if the latter had been used.

Of course I agree with the various notions that speak against the true-Kyrie-fake-Shkanon-culprit. Although it is an amusing thought, having Shkanon run around to stake the bodies that Kyrie left behind (Benny Hill-style; though Shkanon got lazy in EP3 and 4) to force Battler into believing a witch did it, so he can reject the notion of witches EXISTing in general to their 'epic' battle of incompetence vs. ahaha.wav ... alright alright, let's go with the intended answer again - enough fooling around.

Sometimes I get the feeling that Ryukishi scrapping Land was the first step to what some call the general derailment of Chiru (personally I still liked it overall but ... we all know the general reactions to it). Hopefully he won't have any mercy with his readers next time he writes a When They Cry (assuming he does).

We know Land was supposed to contain a male Virgilia in a sort of detective role, maybe similar to an Erika-type character. Our Confession's forgery doesn't really have this.

If "Forgery No.XXX" is accurate, Battler may have been the culprit of Land or at least that would have been a theory which would likely have been advanced in Land. Our Confession makes no such suggestion, even of Battler as an accomplice.

Beatrice and Dlanor suggest the forgery in Our Confession is more a draft of sorts. Land was, at least according to Twilight, a fully-fledged story that was lost.

Land was supposedly very difficult, but the mystery in Our Confession seems about on par with Turn or Banquet. Ryukishi supposedly abandoned Land for ep3 because of his concern that the audience might not respond well to its difficulty, and it seems unlikely that would've been the major concern were this the story he was going to use.

While they can be one and the same that's not necessary true and Ryukishi might have recycled the name for amusement purpose.

Let's now assume that there was a message in the bottle that matched with 'Land' (would it be titled as such or the names of the messages in the bottles were given later?).

As only 2 were found this third message supposedly got lost confirming Beato's words in Twilight.

This means no forger would know about it therefore if a forgery mentions 'Land' then it's merely due to a casuality.

Now, we've 'Land' mentioned in the meta of Twilight and in the magic scene of Forgery No XXX (we've a PieceBattler who can be moved on Rokkenjima by the witches).

Forgery No XXX doesn't seem to be written by Toya so if the author refers, in the magic scene to a tale called 'Land', he's either making the name up or taking it from someone else's forgery. Not from a message in the bottle. This means 'Forgery No XXX' might not contain info about the real 'Land' but about... someone else's Land.

Now, Twilight is written by Toya. and the 'Land' mentioning supposedly happens in the meta.
If the meta was Toya's creation could Toya know about the true 'Land'? Well, it's easy to assume he figured out or was told there were more than 2 tales so he could have named one of the tales that were never found 'Land'. Yasu might have given him some details about it but, if the tale was tossed in the sea, Battler/Toya never read it so we can't say how much he knows of that tale (and after all we don't even know how he spent those days on Rokkenjima and how much time Yasu had to tell him everything about herself that's used for writing EP 7 as well as 'Land').
If the meta is Ange's creation it's hard to picture Ange might know something about 'Land' and 'Land' serves just as the name for a lost tale.

There's also something interesting to consider. If the original 'Land' was supposed to be... let's call it the story in place of 'Banquet', was it supposed to be a message in the bottle or a forgery? Because 'Banquet' is a forgery.

Now... Our Confession. In Our confession there's basically no mention of Battler whatsoever as an acting/present character. It's as if Battler's action/reactions would be written later. Due to this we can't know if he'll ever be suspected like it happened in Ep 2. All we can say is that the plot presented doesn't seem to require him as an accomplice.
(Actually we've such a serious lack of Battler I can even suspect he slept hrough the whole thing... -_-)

Vergilius, for all we know, might have been a meta only character, let's say like a third witch/wizard, and there's not much meta in the story.

Our confession as a mystery is rather easy because there's no mystery at all. We're told immediately what's going on, we aren't left to suspect that our theory is wrong. In addition we've a lot of knowledge we didn't have previously.

The chain closed room isn't a problem for anyone anymore, nor would be Shannon's disappearance and suicide. We also knew the servants were accomplices.

We don't even consider another theory beside Yasu did it, while in other episodes we could suspect about Eva or Kyrie.

Maybe, if Our confession had been presented to us earlier and in the same format as the other games we might have found it difficult. As it is to use Ryukishi's words:

Quote:

If the answer is already out, itís laughable to try and hide it with difficult riddles.

Though my idea isn't that Our confession was Land exactly as it was but that the mystery in it was the one that, more or less, was supposed to go in Land.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renall

It wouldn't suit the idea of Land being "lost" for him to just reveal it, and if he did reveal it, why wouldn't he just call it Land or a draft thereof and make that abundantly clear to everyone? He gains nothing from providing a forgery that might be Land if his goal was to stop questions about it by releasing the outline.

You aren't really asking me to tell you what's in Ryukishi's mind, are you? Because I for first don't get why he did some choices in regard to the main Umineko so it can't really be expected I can explain what is and what isn't in his mind.

This doesn't mean he couldn't have changed his mind or recycled Land's plot for this sidestory. After all here he doesn't have the problem to hide the answer as he reveals it.
In a way it's an interesting way to deal with the problem. This way he doesn't have to try to hide the answer.

And anyway I'm not saying 'Our Confession' is 'Land'. Just that there's the possibility its mystery and Land's will match but why to create a completely new mystery that has to be anyway exposed fully to the readers when there was already one available in Land?

Anyway, as Land's story was closed in a catbox after all, we'll never know the truth.

Well according to Ryukishi, the tricks for land seem to have been divided between EP4~6. I wonder if things like Battler not being Asumu's Child in EP4, the Battler culprit theory in EP5 and the Detective becoming the Culprit in EP6 were key things of Land. Come to think of it, EP5 and EP6 really like to make Battler seem like the culprit. Maybe the ending where Beatrice saves Battler was due to something like the Logic Error situation.

Supposedly, the explosion is keyed to Midnight, or 00:00 of October 6th. Which is 24:00 of October 5th. Saturday is the 4th, Sunday is the 5th. The game ends at the end of Sunday/start of Monday.

Thank you. I was asking because in the Episode 4 tea party a part of it is dedicated to Battler simply playing detective and exploring the island after everyone has supposedly died except Yasu.

Something to note though is that it takes place on the 6th... unless I made a mistake? I recently read it and I'm fairly sure it takes place on the 6th though. I noticed that R07 goes out of his way to put in Battler's narrative that he looked at the remaining half of Shannon's face, and recognized it to be "her" when logically it has to be a fake corpse as Yasu met with Battler. I'm thinking that either it never occurred because it's impossible for someone to be alive on the 6th, and R07 used the entire Episode 4 Battler Island Investigation scene as a red herring to be able to put falsehoods into Battler's detective perspective (because he wasn't alive during the stated time-frame), or that he (Battler) was simply fatigued or not in a state where he could reason well and made a mistake as I don't believe he slept during the 5th, and everyone was dead by the night of the 4th when he met Yasu in front of the mansion.

I just found that moment particularly peculiar, because Battler was alone, went up to the corpse, and essentially said "Yes. This is her". Makes me wonder what R07's intentions of it were at the time when also considering this supposedly takes place on the 6th.

I noticed that R07 goes out of his way to put in Battler's narrative that he looked at the remaining half of Shannon's face, and recognized it to be "her" when logically it has to be a fake corpse as Yasu met with Battler.

Beatrice only fought Battler in Meta. She never talks to Battler face to face on the island, well she could have considering the time gap but there is no evidence that she did. Logic states that Yasu is dead by the well as...

And right now, there is no one other than you on this island. The only one alive on this island is you. Nothing outside the island can interfere.

Even though people have found a way to weasel their way out of some truths, this one is pretty solid. Yasu is dead. Besides Ryukishi stated in his interview that Yasu just used a gun trick by the well to disguise the suicide.

Thank you. I was asking because in the Episode 4 tea party a part of it is dedicated to Battler simply playing detective and exploring the island after everyone has supposedly died except Yasu.

Something to note though is that it takes place on the 6th... unless I made a mistake? I recently read it and I'm fairly sure it takes place on the 6th though. I noticed that R07 goes out of his way to put in Battler's narrative that he looked at the remaining half of Shannon's face, and recognized it to be "her" when logically it has to be a fake corpse as Yasu met with Battler. I'm thinking that either it never occurred because it's impossible for someone to be alive on the 6th, and R07 used the entire Episode 4 Battler Island Investigation scene as a red herring to be able to put falsehoods into Battler's detective perspective (because he wasn't alive during the stated time-frame), or that he (Battler) was simply fatigued or not in a state where he could reason well and made a mistake as I don't believe he slept during the 5th, and everyone was dead by the night of the 4th when he met Yasu in front of the mansion.

I just found that moment particularly peculiar, because Battler was alone, went up to the corpse, and essentially said "Yes. This is her". Makes me wonder what R07's intentions of it were at the time when also considering this supposedly takes place on the 6th.

No it happens on the 5th. What makes EP4 different from the others is that the game starts in earnest on the 4th. Battler meets "Beatrice" at midnight, goes berserk for a few hours after seeing Maria's corpse and then starts playing detective after he calms down.

This laps of time could be used to carry out things, its rather risky in that Battler could find out but its still possible.

Beatrice only fought Battler in Meta. She never talks to Battler face to face on the island, well she could have considering the time gap but there is no evidence that she did. Logic states that Yasu is dead by the well as...

Battler talks to Yasu on the balcony in front of the entrance to the mansion after everyone other than Maria has supposedly died. That was piece-Battler, and piece-Battler's perspective cannot contain falsehoods (in 1-4 at least). Piece-Battler fails to remember his promise, and then Yasu gets mad and goes back into the mansion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

No it happens on the 5th. What makes EP4 different from the others is that the game starts in earnest on the 4th. Battler meets "Beatrice" at midnight, goes berserk for a few hours after seeing Maria's corpse and then starts playing detective after he calms down.

I just checked again actually. It occurs on the 6th. After he meets Yasu he spends a full 24 hours (The Tea Party starts on the night of the next day the 25th), and then in the morning he awakes and begins his full investigation on this day (the 26th).

I just checked again actually. It occurs on the 6th. After he meets Yasu he spends a full 24 hours (The Tea Party starts on the night of the next day the 25th), and then in the morning he awakes and begins his full investigation on this day (the 26th).

The "24 hours later" is Battler speaking just before midnight on the 5th. The whole investigation is a flashback of what he was doing that day on the empty island.

He spoke to Beatrice at midnight on the 4th, and he thought everyone was dead by that time, but he didn't actually find Shannon's corpse until much later.

__________________

"Something has fallen on us that falls very seldom on men; perhaps the worst thing that can fall on them. We have found the truth; and the truth makes no sense."

Battler specifically says this, too. He mentions exactly what he'd been doing up to that point.

According to his narration, after meeting Beatrice and going to the chapel to find the key, he went inside and found everyone in the dining room. At this point he apparently became pretty paranoid and seemingly ran around in a panic looking for the killer and/or possibly sleeping until about 6 AM, when he began searching for other bodies. It was only at this point that he found Jessica, Kyrie, and the people outside (including Shannon). Technically speaking, anyone other than George and the people in the dining room could've been alive after midnight, so long as they died before about 6-7 AM on the 5th.

What exactly Battler was doing from noon of the 5th to midnight I'm not sure. He seems to have given up looking for the killer, and there aren't any more bodies to find... guess he just got depressed and started drinking, or maybe passed out for a while.

What exactly Battler was doing from noon of the 5th to midnight I'm not sure. He seems to have given up looking for the killer, and there aren't any more bodies to find... guess he just got depressed and started drinking, or maybe passed out for a while.

Thats exactly what Battler starts doing actually. At least in the manga version.

e-Talking about the manga. There is a slight difference with that scene in that manga compared to the VN. In the VN, Battler does spot Maria before running out in rage. The game even does the sound effect when someone's alive or dead status changes. In the manga, Battler only spots the 6 adults and rushes out after crying a bit on his fathers corpse. Its only when he comes back that he spots Maria's corpse.

The "24 hours later" is Battler speaking just before midnight on the 5th. The whole investigation is a flashback of what he was doing that day on the empty island.

He spoke to Beatrice at midnight on the 4th, and he thought everyone was dead by that time, but he didn't actually find Shannon's corpse until much later.

Ah thank you. My mistake. It was a bit confusing because normally the only flashbacks that occur are over the span of several decades.

I understand that Yasu committed suicide (because of Battler), but why would he/she go and do it as Shannon? The story typically implies that, each game, Yasu kills off that personality inside him/her before or by the end of the murders. The fantasy narration also implies that Shannon was "killed off" before Battler even met with Yasu. R07 generally writes fantasy scenes to not be blatantly false, but to be metaphorical, so it kind of implies that when Kyrie and Krauss' group were hunted down she also killed Kanon and Shannon inside of his/her mind. If so why would Yasu "revive" Shannon only to suicide as her? Also if Yasu is allowed to revive Kanon or Shannon on whim then wouldn't that take away from the image of what the red truth represents? The whole explanation for meta Beatrice being able to confirm their deaths in red each game is, to my understanding, the idea of personality deaths; Yasu being able to revive them on whim after killing them would severely undermine this. If she committed suicide because of Battler after the murders then I imagine he/she'd do it in Kinzo's study or something. If Yasu committed suicide as Shannon because Battler's promise to Shannon in the past (if she did it because of this it implies that she's trying to make a statement) then that's kind of contradictory with her doing it in one of the least visible places on the island that a normal person wouldn't normally walk through.

Also if Yasu did suicide as Shannon after everything occurred, then why would it be consistent with the earlier fantasy narrative? Assuming the earlier fantasy scene of Shannon's death was an abnormality (all other occasions fantasy scenes are metaphorical and still occurred in some way) and it didn't occur then why does Shannon's "after the fact" suicide coincidentally match it?

If it's to "get back" as Battler then suiciding as Shannon (and making all bodies accounted for) only says to piece-Battler that a "19th" person exists and puts him at relative ease in regards to his complex over suspecting his friends or family.

And if it was to make a statement, IE: "You baka, you didn't remember our promise, so I will now die in the form of the person you made the promise to" then Yasu suiciding in a location that someone would likely never walk by is contradictory to this.

Thats exactly what Battler starts doing actually. At least in the manga version.

e-Talking about the manga. There is a slight difference with that scene in that manga compared to the VN. In the VN, Battler does spot Maria before running out in rage. The game even does the sound effect when someone's alive or dead status changes. In the manga, Battler only spots the 6 adults and rushes out after crying a bit on his fathers corpse. Its only when he comes back that he spots Maria's corpse.

Well, the VN put much more enphasis on Battler trying to save Maria and crying when he saw her (as well as his father and the others) dead.
The manga put much more emphasis on the pain he felt seeing his father dead.

But yes, from a mystery perspective the change is interesting because it leaves open the possibility Maria was killed later, though at the same time it could be she was merely out of Battler's sight the first time he entered in that room (one time he entered from one side of the room and the other he entered from the opposite one).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryuudou

Battler talks to Yasu on the balcony in front of the entrance to the mansion after everyone other than Maria has supposedly died. That was piece-Battler, and piece-Battler's perspective cannot contain falsehoods (in 1-4 at least). Piece-Battler fails to remember his promise, and then Yasu gets mad and goes back into the mansion.

The 'fun' part is that, after Beato's thetrical accusation about him having a sin, it would be hard to connect 'his sin' to that promise even if he were to remember it.

It'll be hard to think the witch of Rokkenjima, who supposedly killed Shannon already, would murder everyone, Shannon included, because he didn't keep his word about coming back, expecially because Shannon didn't seem to have problems with it as she had found another boyfriend and is about to marry him and all after a rant which basically said that, since he was an Ushiromiya, even if his father cheated on his mother (basically breaking the promise to stay faithful to her), he should have stayed an Ushiromiya.

Not mentioning that Beato purposely said things/let him believe things that were misleading and tried to trick him. One surely wouldn't expect her to preach the importance of keeping promises to someone apparently unrelated to her and whom she had no qualm to kill, trick, make fun of and consider forniture.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryuudou

I understand that Yasu committed suicide (because of Battler), but why would he/she go and do it as Shannon?

According to Yasu's game none must remain alive so she has to die at some point and, apparently, she prefers to do it with her Shannon look. So you can say if you want that Yasu first killed her Shannon personality and after killed herself while wearing Shannon's clothes.
After all it's suspicious how Kanon's body goes missing in two episodes but it would be even more suspicious if Shannon were to go missing as well.
Plus, killing herself while in Shannon's clothes free her from the problem of hiding her own corpse.
If Battler were to find it and recognize it as Shannon's in Beato's clothes he would get the truth.
If she were to fake being dead waiting for the bomb, once all the accomplices/adults are killed there's after all the likehood that Battler, as he did in EP 4, would check again the corpses and discover she was faking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryuudou

Also if Yasu is allowed to revive Kanon or Shannon on whim then wouldn't that take away from the image of what the red truth represents?

Many have been disappointed by how the red was used in regard to Kanon/Shannon's deaths and consider it an unfair trick.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryuudou

Also if Yasu did suicide as Shannon after everything occurred, then why would it be consistent with the earlier fantasy narrative? Assuming the earlier fantasy scene of Shannon's death was an abnormality (all other occasions fantasy scenes are metaphorical and still occurred in some way) and it didn't occur then why does Shannon's "after the fact" suicide coincidentally match it?

Fantasy scenes don't necessarily match the truth. The only thing that has to match is the result, so those people died in the fantasy and those people must die in the mystery. However if you consider Ep 6 the victims died in a way completely different by the one portrayed in the fantasy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryuudou

If it's to "get back" as Battler then suiciding as Shannon (and making all bodies accounted for) only says to piece-Battler that a "19th" person exists and puts him at relative ease in regards to his complex over suspecting his friends or family.

That's not so much in order to put piece-Battler at ease but in order to make more difficult for Meta-Battler to solve the game. Pieces exist merely in function of the meta players, to deliver a message to them.

That clears some things up, however two (or at least one) fake bodies had to be used in the episode 3 first twilight right?

Not necessarily. You see, Shannon was in the first floor, and was the only one on an accessible place, the other corpses were in the 2nd floor, a place where you cannot easily throw a chair at and pass through the broken window. The other one on ground level was Kanon, but no-one is gonna check the chapel first. So the siblings discover Shannon first, discover the key and go through every room in the closed room circle. As Kanon is the last one, Yasu can kill Shannon in the first room, and has plenty of time to go to the chapel and kill Kanon there. Nobody returns to the closed rooms so it seems that Kanon and Shannon are dead in different places.

Not necessarily. You see, Shannon was in the first floor, and was the only one on an accessible place, the other corpses were in the 2nd floor, a place where you cannot easily throw a chair at and pass through the broken window. The other one on ground level was Kanon, but no-one is gonna check the chapel first. So the siblings discover Shannon first, discover the key and go through every room in the closed room circle. As Kanon is the last one, Yasu can kill Shannon in the first room, and has plenty of time to go to the chapel and kill Kanon there. Nobody returns to the closed rooms so it seems that Kanon and Shannon are dead in different places.

Personally I understand that, what about the keys?

Who was the 5th one again?Anyway wasn't the key to the chapel in the 5th room or did I get something wrong here?
As in:
Chapel - needs key from room 5 - that requires the key from room 4 - etc.

Who was the 5th one again?Anyway wasn't the key to the chapel in the 5th room or did I get something wrong here?
As in:
Chapel - needs key from room 5 - that requires the key from room 4 - etc.

Yes the key was in the fifth room they checked. But it wasn't needed. All Yasu would have to do is use the turn locks and keep the chapel door unlocked until she went inside.

Also I went back and reread the discovery scene and found some interesting things. First Krauss states that he didn't hear anything coming from Kinzo's room. Krauss knows Kinzo is dead but he was trying to keep up the appearance of him being alive so Krauss more likely than not would have lied about this saying he heard Kinzo. Another thing though is in order for Yasu's closed room to work the Parlor has to be the first room checked and interestingly enough Krauss suggests they check the Parlor first.

Yes the key was in the fifth room they checked. But it wasn't needed. All Yasu would have to do is use the turn locks and keep the chapel door unlocked until she went inside.

Also I went back and reread the discovery scene and found some interesting things. First Krauss states that he didn't hear anything coming from Kinzo's room. Krauss knows Kinzo is dead but he was trying to keep up the appearance of him being alive so Krauss more likely than not would have lied about this saying he heard Kinzo. Another thing though is in order for Yasu's closed room to work the Parlor has to be the first room checked and interestingly enough Krauss suggests they check the Parlor first.

So I think Krauss is an Accomplice in EP3

Just a question, does the narrative at some point mentions if the chapel could be locked from inside without the key? Because if it does then the Krauss EP3 Accomplice theory will have some solid proof.

Also, chapel was unlocked the whole time till that moment if that theory is true. If I recall correctly EP2 also had the chapel unlocked for the whole Halloween trick to work, right?

Just a question, does the narrative at some point mentions if the chapel could be locked from inside without the key? Because if it does then the Krauss EP3 Accomplice theory will have some solid proof.

Also, chapel was unlocked the whole time till that moment if that theory is true. If I recall correctly EP2 also had the chapel unlocked for the whole Halloween trick to work, right?

I don't think it says anything explicitly, (unless you count that poorly worded red from EP2) but, assuming ShKanon, the chapel has to be lockable from the inside without a key. Otherwise Kanon wouldn't be able to lock himself inside after being discovered as Shannon.

Either that, or the Halloween trick. But I don't think it ever mentioned who opened the door to the chapel, so I'd prefer not to think that's how it was done... Really, the whole linked closed room is wide open if you start suspecting the discoverers. All needed is one accomplice anywhere to plant a single key or envelope, or just to lie and say one certain door or window was locked when it wasn't.

Though Krauss saying that Kinzo didn't seem to be in his room was suspiciously convenient for him and Natsuhi. Imagine if he said he had spoken to Kinzo, and then a few minutes later they found the corpse in the boiler room...

Yes the key was in the fifth room they checked. But it wasn't needed. All Yasu would have to do is use the turn locks and keep the chapel door unlocked until she went inside.

No device exists which can lock them without a key.

Doesn't that contradict this red?

Also:Furthermore, all of the doors and windows in the 6 rooms are normalAll windows and doors leading to the outside were locked from the inside.
How'd she get out herself then?
Window is impossible and the door was locked from the inside.