December 18, 2010

“This bill is a law that at its fundamental core is a reward for illegal activity,” said Sen. Jeff Sessions (R-Ala.) on the floor an hour before the vote. “It’s the third time we’ve tried to schedule a vote on it during this lame-duck session. It’s the fifth version of this legislation that has been introduced in the past five months.”...

“Many of you have told me that you’re lying awake at night, tossing and turning over this vote, because you know how hard it’s going to be politically, that some people will use it against you,” [Senate Minority Whip Dick Durbin] said. “But I might say, if you can summon the courage....”

But the courage to reward illegal activity was insufficiently summoned.

137 comments:

Huh? I thought based on your response to the Willie Nelson pot bust that you were in favor of ignoring laws that are inconvenient? Now how will all those country club Republicans and limousine liberals get their lawns mowed and houses cleaned?

Hagar said...Am I correct that the DREAM Act would just be piled on top of the existing immigration law(s), not replace it?

It would effectively take anyone who applied under its provisions, whether their application were truthful, out of the regular process and give them immunity from deportation, until their application was adjudicated some years down the line...

I think that sometime next year, sfter the dust settles some, the Republicans should take up the immigration law(s) with a view to reform the system to something resonably consonant with today's world, never mind how it was back in 1913, and, of course, entice those who are already here to vote Republican, whether their ancestors arrived here with de Oñate or they themselves are more recent arrivals.

And EDH, I came here quite legally, did my military service, and all, so I am not all that enthused about "amnesty." On the other hand, one has to recognize that it is not the "immigrants" who have run this country like a banana republic for the last 70-80 years.

What really burns me, is that I, my mother in the old country, and my uncle in this, all had to sign a statement that we clearly understood that if I ever became "a burden to the American taxpayer, i.e., applied for any sort of social benefits, I would promptly be rounded up and deported back home. (At the time I thought this a little rough, since I thought they meant forever, but I now understand it was only until I became a citizen.)

Again, it is not the "immigrants" who issue drivers' licenses, run food stamp programs, emergency rooms, etc., so it is not them I am mad at.

I would support a fence first aka real border security then confer legal status of some sort for most who came here illegally but we should NEVER EVER let them become citizens when they came here illegally. Why is the debate always an all vs. none argument?

I do not see anything wrong with, after we get the system straightened out, an illegal immigrant coming out of hiding would have his/her five years starting as of that date.

You have to recognize that for a poor Mexican, or other nationality for that matter, it would have to appear that whatever we were officially saying, our actions indicated that they would be quite welcome here.

And that is what we have to stop. Employers knowingly hiring illegal immigrants must be vigorously prosecuted across the board, and in fact, anyone that recognizes someone as an "illegal" and does not report it should be prosecuted as "aiding and abetting."

This bill would have only added to state and federal budget woes because of subsidizing college expenses for those newly eligible to enroll. We all know damned well it would become an entitlement program and there would be rampant cheating as well. I'm so sick of government fiscal irresponsibility that justifies itself because of good intentions.I'm very glad this act failed.

"Big Mike said...Huh? I thought based on your response to the Willie Nelson pot bust that you were in favor of ignoring laws that are inconvenient? Now how will all those country club Republicans and limousine liberals get their lawns mowed and houses cleaned?

12/18/10 12:20 PM"

How about getting those on welfare and unemployment do the lawn work and house cleaning? If the Mexicans can find work, what is their excuse?

That in-state college tuition for "undocumented aliens" is a really sore point with me. I had to get my citizenship (which I admittedly could have gotten sooner, but I was busy) and register to vote before UNM would agree to my being a State resident, and then only very reluctantly, especially since I registered as a Republican.

But again, it is the colleges and the liberals that are doing this, not the "illegals."

I never did mind the military side of the DREAM Act. It was the idea that illegals could jump ahead in line and not get deported just because they were going to college that bothered me. Yes, I know that for a lot of them, college isn't party central, like it is for much of the middle class. But it is still a far cry from the sands of Iraq and the mountains of Afghanistan.

I am more conservative than Sarah Palins panty shields but I think we are missing a bet by not letting so many hard working people become American citizens. I mean I know dozens of really hard working and terrific Mexicans, Chinese, Dominican and even Jordanian people who would make great American Citizens. Who want to be legal and on the books.

I think we are missing a bet by not helping them. They are social conservatives in the main and would a valuable addition to our country.

I would suggest that the other thing that you have to keep in mind here is that trying to ram this bill through during the lame duck session was political payback. A certain senior Senator of a western state in an extremely influential position in the Senate had been in the political fight for his life this fall, and that Senator appears to have promised to try to run it through the lame duck session in trade for a lot of help in getting reelected.

Actually, there were probably more than one Senators who had chips outstanding in the Hispanic community from the help they provided in the last election.

I suspect that this is the last gasp of this bill. The immigration debate is changing, finally, to border security, as civil order breaks down south of our border. Maybe, some day, we can have more open borders to the south, but not now. Not with the increasing number of armed incursions we are seeing on that border.

Combine this with the fact that our enemies, such as Islamic terrorists, have utilized the same organizations who bring in peasants from Mexico and points south, to enter this country.

Now is not the time for making the path for citizenship easier for illegals. And, that is why this was the last great chance they had for this in the near future.

I should add that I expect that one of the things that the new Republican House will investigate is how Homeland Security seems to be covering this situation up as much as they can for political reasons (and, yes, the Republicans have political reasons for exposing this, and what is really going on on our southern border).

I think we are missing a bet by not helping them. They are social conservatives in the main and would a valuable addition to our country.

Let me suggest though that the Hispanic community, like the Black community, only not quite as bad, showed that it votes as an ethnic block first, and then for its social conservatism.

That they came out so strongly for, for example, that Senator I mentioned in my previous post, provides a very potent political reason for the Republicans to go slow on allowing illegals to more easily gain citizenship.

I don't really care who they vote for. I know it is hard to believe but some people who vote Democratic are good Americans.

It't just that in time as they get sucessful they will become Republicans. Many of them work in small businesses and are in fact the backbone of those businesses. If they can legalize their status, they will take over that business or start their own. If they do...they will naturally turn Republican because no small businessman in his right mind would be a Democrat.

But that is not the point. They are hard working good people who deserve a chance.

Maybe it is because I am from New York, but I meet many illegal immigrants who would make great citizens and patroits. Who would be loyal Americans and love mom, apple pie, hot dogs, Chevolet and the Yankees.

I mean Democrats are like Red Sox fans. They love baseball. They can be good fans. They are just stupid misguided fools who beclown themselves by being Sox fans just as good American beclown themselvesby being Democrats.

I am more conservative than Sarah Palins panty shields but I think we are missing a bet by not letting so many hard working people become American citizens

I would tend to agree, but there would have to be a quid pro quo, such as a 5% surtax for the rest of the illegal's life on income and FICA as payback for the services they consumed while here illegally.

I think what many miss is that most adult Latino illegals are not immigrants, the left changed the terminology to suit their ends. Most illegals don't want to become citizens, they want to work, remit funds and be able to freely move between the two countries.

Mexico, for example, does not recognize dual citizenship so they would lose their ancestral property rights. A very big deal in their culture. Mexicans have only had property rights since 1917.

When you buy property in Mexico everyone on both sides of the family must sign off on the deed, even the infirm elderly and infants are represented by locum...which is why they bear maternal & paternal surnames.

There will be a significant number of illegals who will accept amnesty but never complete citizenship. Then what?

In the West and the Midwest most illegals are Mexican and Central American, in Florida they tend to be South American and Caribbean, in the Northeast Canadian, European and Caribbean.

There is no "one size fits all" amnesty solution. That's why we have such a complex legal immigration process.

I don't know what the solutions is, but the cobbled together legislation we've seen thus far has been crafted in bad faith, to serve the ends of a political party, not the illegals nor the country as a whole. We're kidding ourselves if we think that's anything but a recipe for disaster.

I don't think that they would want to be legal I know they want to be legal. You know why? Unemployment insurance. Workers compensation. If they get fired or hurt on the job they are shit out of luck and become part of the every increasing burden on the taxpayers without ever paying into the system. Many (but not all, I agree) want to get legal and to start paying into the system. Then they can open their own busnesses and get licenses and what not. Although in NYC many get licenses even though they are illegal. It works on a wink and a nod basis. But getting them legal we would at least be getting some money. And that might be in the billions actually. Certainly not all but a hell of a lot. Just sayn'

Maybe it is because I am from New York, but I meet many illegal immigrants who would make great citizens and patroits.

@ Trooper

Maybe you should come and spend some time in the barrios and slums of California, especially the central valley, which have turn the state into a travesty.

A slum, a third world nation full of people relying on welfare. Working the system for freebies. Tearing down the social fabric of once triving communities. Rampant with crime and gangs.

Undermining the wages and ability to make a decent living by citizens. Destruction of family businesses that had been in towns for generations and who just gave up, moved and went out of business.

Schools full of illegal immigrant children who refuse to stand for the National Anthem. Schools where they are afraid to have patriotic displays for the Fourth of July because the Mexican gangs will beat you up if you wear an American Flag. Schools where they spit on the flag. Schools where they are taught how terrible America is.

A State now full of filth, decaying buildings and fear. When I see what has happened to the beautiful, peaceful, prosperous and vibrant towns where I grew up, I literally want to cry.

Welcome to Mexifornia.

And you WANT to legalize this and bring it to your neighborhood.

You WANT to have more and more of (yes I dare to say it) these people allowed to vote themselves ever more and more and more entitlements?

Regardless of how hard working or decent they may be, the problem is that they cheated and jumped in line, breaking the law. Unless you want that to be the policy, it must be made to fail as a strategy. I know many illegals and if in their place, I would have done the same, but they and I would only do it because it is seen as acceptable and quasi-legal. Make it clearly illegal, unfair and wrong; and decent people would not do it.

Yes. Yes we would. If you don't think so then you have no concept of the underground economy.

We've been through this before. Remember the Immigration Reform Act of 1986?

You grant amnesty to the illegals who are here now. OK, they're legal now and get to "come in from from the shadows" and become part of the aboveground economy.

Great for them, but more illegals are coming in all the time and pretty soon you're right back where you started. Illegals everywhere in an underground economy that doesn't pay taxes! So then you need another round of amnesty legislation to bring those people in from the shadows. And then another and another...

Dust Bunny Queen, I have a lot of respect for you but I used to go to Bed Stuy right after the worst of the riots in the sixties. Nothing that goes on in Cali is as bad as that was back in the day. Or Detroit City. And those were native born Americans. They said the same thing about the Italians and the Jews and the Irish back in the day. That the were a "criminal race" and a danger to our country.

I went to California to make clothes. The Mexicans I met in the garment center and the fabric warehouse and the contractors were all decent hard working people who deserve a chance to get legal.

I am sure there are a lot of the scum of the earth types who are ciminals in the barrio. Lock them up with no mercy. Shit shoot them while they are trying to escape for all I fucking care. I don't give two shits about them. Guliani showed the way. Arrest the criminals and let the decent people of whatever ethnicity come out of the shadows and live their lives in safety.

Maybe it's because I am only two generations off the boat. I don't want to pull the ladder up after me. I want to give them a chance.

I want to give Hop Sing a chance to get his green card so he can cook for Hoss and Little Joe. What can I say. I am not afraid of the taco.

I want to give Hop Sing a chance to get his green card so he can cook for Hoss and Little Joe

So do I. Legally.

I also am only two generations decended from immigrants.

HOWEVER, there is no comparison to those who came to this country THEN with the idea of building a better life, BECOMING a proud American.

Our ancestors also didn't have all the tax paid freebies and safety nets that are the REAL reason that many come here. No social security, no medicaid, no unemployment insurance, no food stamps. You came, you worked and you depended on yourself or upon charity from friends, family and church.

NOW they depend on getting handouts from the tax payer, while at the same time scamming the system, like Meg Whitman's worker. Squat and squirt out an anchor baby and you get all the goodies and you can bring in all the rest of your family to ride the gravy train.

They lie, they cheat and they proudly state that they do NOT want to be Americans. They refuse to honor the traditions of America. They say and I have heard it, that they don't need to stand for the National Anthem, because it isn't THEIR country.

There are whole towns in the central valley which are disappearing, or have become 99% illegal immigrant and have sunk into worse than slum status. Much of California has become the equivilant of a third world slum. California is becoming Haiti, Cuba.

The sad part is those people who are encouraging this destruction of America, live in gated communities and the wealthy enclaves. THEY don't have to live with the consequences of their delusions. They can promote illegal immigration without having to deal with the unintended consequences of rampant illegality.

Immigration is a good thing for the Country. CONTROLLED immigration where we allow people who have skills to contribute and who have the desire to work and do better are the ones allowed to come into the country. (Try to immigrate to New Zealand and see how it should work)

NOW, we close our eyes and allow criminals, unskilled who drag down the economy and pay and pay and pay through the nose, while these illegals are destroying the economy and the fabric of society.

I just don't see it that way. I deal with illegal immigrants every day in every store I go into. From the guy with the coffee cart in the morning to the guy who sells me a newspaper to the guy who sells me a slize a pizza to the guy who delivers the Thai food at night. All good people. All should be able to get legal.

I have no doubt that there are tons of low life criminals. If they break the law by stealing or selling dope or whatever....well string them up their cojones until their dicks rot off. Those are the people who need to be incarcerated or deported.

DBQ:Hanson is probably my favorite pundit. I especially like the way he uses what he sees with his own eyes as evidence to support his arguments. In the article you linked, he actually did several 20 mile bike rides in the Central valley to gather his insights and he shopped at two Walmarts that were 50 miles apart.

As to Trooper, he would make anyone a citizen unless they were a boomer hipster.

If someone sneaked into your house, and just decided to stay without paying rent, I doubt you would make him part of the family just because he was a hardworking nice guy. Then when his relatives showed up to move in too, it would be very friendly and fair I'm sure.

It's not about fear - it's about right, wrong, the rule of law, fairness and respect.

You can't give illegals the rights being denied those who are following the rules. Do you really just let people cut in line one after another and think it's fair or right. The people who are following the rules and waiting are not deserving of anything but a slap in the face?

If somebody cuts you off to get on the line for the FDR drive when you are getting off the Brooklyn Bridge....do you follow them to the exit to beat the shit out of them when you get to the stop light?

It is true that there are people that follow all the rules and immigrate properly. We know they are going to make great Americans. Those are the Republicans. But there are a lot of people who for one reason or another didn't do that. Some of them are criminals. Round em up and ship em out. And ship out any liberals who complain about it. But there are plenty of good hard working people who would be great for us to legalize and get out of the underground economy. That's all I am trying to say.

"If you talk to people in Mexico... if you get them drunk in a bar, they’ll say we’re taking it back, sorry. That’s not an uncommon sentiment in Mexico, so why can’t we take it seriously here? This is like a Quebec problem if France was next door to Canada."

Physical reconquista is pure fantasy, but when one in three Californians is Chicano, but only one in five are eligible to vote due to status or age, political reconquista is not.

Oddly the Dems can't or won't see that the tail will soon be wagging the Chihuahua.

I'm a little skeptical that people who sneak into the country, knowing it's illegal, and then avoid paying taxes and commonly buy stolen property, are going to make upstanding good citizens. They may make average ones, but not good ones.

But there are a lot of people who for one reason or another didn't do that.

Please list all the legitimate, legally defensible "one reason or another"s for violating the law here from Day One... and then expecting to be rewarded for doing so (e.g., free college tuition for one's kids, etc.), on top of everything else.

Jumping ship and then getting what America has to offer is as old as this country. Lots of guineas and micks did it at the turn of the last century.

Listen I know you guys hate the beaners. I am not so fond of Carlos Mencia my own self. But people do shit. Shit happens. I am not so holier than thou to think that many if not most of these people can be productive citizens. The way to break the back of La Raza and the commie Democrats is to teach these chicos how to be good red blooded americans. Teach them to put down the burrito and pick up the hot dog. Drop the piss Corona and leave that to the yuppie bitches and start drinking Bud. And stop rooting for those dog ass Dodgers and become Yankee fans and New York Giant fans.

1. Several trips to Oslo keep appointments at the US embassy. (Each trip consumed three days)2. Prove she wasn't a goddam communist (seriously)3. Secured a sponsor. 4. Secured a very large bond guaranteeing she wouldn't be any burden whatsoever on the public finances.5. Several health screenings.6. Demonstrated a proficiency in written English.7. Work history and references.

"Because he was rabid union organizer of farm workers. so who did Farmers bring in as strike breakers? yep, illegals."

In the old days the union guys would bring in the mob to stop the manufacturer's from bringing in scabs which is what these illegals really are in effect. Gurrah Shapiro and Dopey Benny Fien and of course Lepke got their start that way.

That was just Chavez's rice bowl. That was his power base. But if you could hire workers who didn't want to be under Uncle Ceaser's thumb wouldn't you be better off?

The way to win this fight is to get the illegals on our side. Our side is better. We have beer, baseball, hot dogs and blow jobs from hot chicks. They have soccer, greasy burritos and having sex with a goat. We win if we just co-opt them. Trust me. They want sex, drugs and rock and roll just as much as we do.

Please list all the legitimate, legally defensible "one reason or another"s for violating the law here from Day One... and then expecting to be rewarded for doing so (e.g., free college tuition for one's kids, etc.), on top of everything else.

Listen. I get it. You wouldn't accept any reason I gave you. I could come up with a convoluted one. Here's one from the 1980's. I knew a dude from Belfast who came over here to work because he wanted to get away from the troubles. He couldn't come legally because the feds would have turned him over to the Brits who would have put him in Long Kesh with out a trial or anything. Just right to the dugeon. He would have died like Bobby Sands and "My Left Foot" guy's father.

Was he right to sneak in to America? No of course not. He broke the law. He was just tired of the fight and just wanted to live his life here in America. To get a job and to have all the stuff we have. Sex, drugs and rock and roll.

When they gave amnesty in 1986 he got it. Now he is a real American. Three kids. His own carpentry business. And season tickets to the Yankees.

Every single day he says "God Bless America."

I bet I can get a lot of people to do the same thing. In a Mexican, Chinese, Thai or Gutamalean accent.

But there is never a reason I could give you that you would accept. It's like the Polish guy used to say. The check is your mouth and I won't come in the mail.You just won't believe him.

Trooper York said...I just don't see it that way. I deal with illegal immigrants every day in every store I go into. From the guy with the coffee cart in the morning to the guy who sells me a newspaper to the guy who sells me a slize a pizza to the guy who delivers the Thai food at night. All good people. All should be able to get legal.

==================Yeah, and as the Yugoslavians proudly told the world at the Sarajevo Olympics "Diversity is our Greatest Strength".

Supposedly 4 billion foreigners want into the US if they can figure out a way to afford getting in for the free healthcare, education, and other rights as well as going after any US job they are willing to work less than native wage to get.

Not even Trooper in NYC will be overjoyed if NYC becomes an alien land.

VDH was born and raised in Selma, near Fresno in the Central Valley. Hanson was professor of classics at Fresno State for over twenty years. He still lives on the family farm and travels to the Hoover a couple of times a month. If anyone knows the valley, it's Hanson.

I was in the Hanford/Madera area in August for a family wedding and you can choose to believe it or not, but it doesn't change the reality on the ground.

All I asked for, plainly and simply, was "legitimate, legally defensible reason(s)" for rewarding those who knowingly elect to violate the law here, from Day One. Either you can do this, or you cannot.

Was he right to sneak in to America? No of course not.

Parsed less circuitously, then: even your own chosen example, right here, does not pass the straightforward, elemental "legitimate, legally defensible reason" test... correct?

But there is never a reason I could give you that you would accept.

It's only the genuinely bush league prophets who limit themselves to self-fulfilling prophecies, Trooper.

I don't accept that reason, no. If that was, in fact, the best you have to offer... then: the resulting failure lies with your examples, rather than my own (ostensible) incredulity.

"Not even Trooper in NYC will be overjoyed if NYC becomes an alien land."

Dude. When was the last time you were in NYC. I am the last man standing pretty much. It is already an alien land.

There are blocks you can walk down where every sign is in Chinese. Or Spanish. Or Thai. Or Russian. So you talk to the people and learn a few words. It was no different than when I was a kid and everyone spoke Italian. Even a half a mick like me. This is nothing new for New York.

kent there are a lot of reasons that I consider legit. Which I know you will not accept. Here is a basic one. To make a better life for themselves and their family. Like the first knucklehead who came over here to steal stuff from AllenS grandfather that is reason enough in their eyes. And in mine. Not in yours. I get it.

And let's try to keep it civil. I am not arguing like hdhouse. I haven't pissed my Depends once. Okay a cut one but that was because I had some fried dumplings for lunch (cooked by an illegal alien) and I had a little gas. But that don't count. So lay off the hd stuff please.

Everyone knows some immigrant who's a great American success story. Maybe even an illegal. But it doesn't follow from there that it's a great idea to have unrestricted immigration from Mexico into California and the southwest, where Mexicans cluster together, don't learn English and go on public assistance at alarming rates.

California is basically ground zero for unrestricted Mexican immigration, and it's changing the social fabric and civic culture of the state. More towards a Latin American model where you have fabulously rich gated communities across the highway from dirt-poor barrios while the middle class grows smaller day by day.

A lot of people like to put their tolerance and sensitivity on display by saying "Cut the poor illegals a break, you racists!", but unrestricted immigration brings unwanted - and largely undesirable - change to the communities that they invite themselves into.

But the courage to reward illegal activity was insufficiently summoned.

Thank goodness.

Why are the left wing politicos so eager to give away our country? Is this how they reward and help the little man? By rewarding those who illegally enter this country, take away blue collar jobs by working for less, and reaping the benefits of our medical and welfare systems while paying less or nothing?

Anyone who thinks the Democrats and other lefties care about the common man need only look at this issue.

"A lot of people like to put their tolerance and sensitivity on display by saying "Cut the poor illegals a break, you racists!","

I certainly don't paint you as a racist. A Protestant maybe but not a racist.

In fact the standing on the table holding their skirt up types like Ezra Klien and the rest of the libtards would totally brand me a racist. If you don't believe me ask Mort.

I come at this like an old school Irish Ward Heeler like Big Tim Sullivan. The way to win this fight is to get in there and register those people and get them to vote the straight Republican ticket because we are bringing them into the mainstream. Because our way is better. Fuck their mariachi bands and their honor killings for not wearing a burka. Fuck them in the ass. (Not that there's anything wrong with that, you can even do that in the army now) Our way is better. We just have to show them that hot dogs and Yankee baseball and taking your senorita out on a warm summer night is the way to go. We will win if we get in the fight.

Nope. I lived with a Mexican woman for 13 years and raised my 100% Mexican step children. My best friend is an illegal Mexican immigrant. I understand sneaking in, but I'm still against it being supported by our government and encouraging more to sneak in line.

When the 19th century immigrants came there was bigotry, but much of it was simply a desire to preserve one's livelihood, which I think is justified, just as is today's concerns with the burden on the safety net. Back then they entered legally and were screened, in essence, invited in. That makes all the difference in the world to me.

MY Q: "Please list all the legitimate, legally defensible "one reason or another"s for violating the law here from Day One... and then expecting to be rewarded for doing so (e.g., free college tuition for one's kids, etc.), on top of everything else."

YOUR A: "To make a better life for themselves and their family."

If you insist upon no dealing with the original query, as (plainly, honestly) stated, then you're absolutely correct, in the literal sense: I "will not accept" your answer, as it is not responsive to the particulars of the question asked.

Either you "get" this... or you do not. I sleep just as soundly, either way.

I don't want to be difficult kent. I really don't. Maybe it is because I really don't believe in the law. Or lawyers. You might have heard me talk about this before.

I know if someone did something to someone in my family I would not go to the cops. They would have to hope that the cops got to them first. So when you put it in strictly legal terms...well we are talking different languages.

I want to win. I want to turn these illegals into red blooded Americans. I think my way is better that's all.

Extend that same faith to America's principled system of "Laws, Not Men," and you'll actually have something.

And it does not escape notice that you freely ascribe racist motivations to those who disagree with you on this (while simultaneously pining for more "civility"), sans apology, incidentally. Speaking of "being difficult," I mean.

You see I think a lot illegals would love to sign on to Trooper York's America. Where we can be free without the government breathing down our neck. Where we can enjoy our sex, drugs and rock and roll. Or we can be religious and holy rollers if we want and people aren't gonna bust our chops. And we ain't gonna bust their chops.

We are going to get a couple of cases of beer and some hot dogs and a few cigars and some sun block (for those dirty pasty Scandis) and we are going to the freakin game to have some fun.

Thanks I am familiar with Hanson's background and since you are from tha area, you surely know he speaks the truth. He is a classics trained professor and also has gotten his hands dirty working on his family farm. I have great respect for him and the way he thinks and his ability to observe and drwaw interesting questions from his observations. We could use more political pundits like him.

Hey I was joking about both the "beaners" and being "civil." [...] Seriously dude, have you ever read any of my comments?

Enough of 'em to expect stuff a good deal funnier than that Ritmo-esque "you all hate the beaners" line, God wot... but: enough, also, to accept your word that it was honestly intended as a gag (albeit a spectacularly failed one), and to drop it accordingly, with no residual hard feelings whatsoever. Fair...?

(... and I love you, too, of course. In a virulently non-Titus-y sort of way, I mean.) ;)

Some people here need to take entry-level logic 101. What would happen if the bottom 50% (in terms of education and poverty-levels) of China or India's pop.--say, 600 million, or TWICE our current population, decided to hop in rust-buckets and sail for our shores?Should we stop them, sink the boats, etc? Or allow them entry? Would the culture of America EVER be the same? To even ask that question is to answer it. And what do you think would happen to our "safety net" infrastructure--let alone the fabric of our culture? But this is where the ultimate logic of those who say, "no problemo" they just want to "work hard" and "better themselves" takes one. The VERY LOGIC used by Trooper et al would unalterably argue for allowing all 600 million. The logic in defense of Latino/Hispanic illegals is EXACTLY the EXACT SAME for allowing ALL the 600 million. "In for a dime in for a dollar." Seen by this logic we are on a seamless continuum differing only in matter of degree.

Certain people should acquaint themselves with the book "Camp of the Saints."

Some people here need to take entry-level logic 101. What would happen if the bottom 50% (in terms of education and poverty-levels) of China or India's pop.--say, 600 million, or TWICE our current population, decided to hop in rust-buckets and sail for our shores? Should we stop them, sink the boats, etc? Or allow them entry? Would the culture of America EVER be the same? To even ask that question is to answer it. And what do you think would happen to our "safety net" infrastructure--let alone the fabric of our culture? But this is where the ultimate logic of those who say, "no problemo" they just want to "work hard" and "better themselves" takes one. The VERY LOGIC used by Trooper et al would unalterably argue for allowing all 600 million. The logic in defense of Latino/Hispanic illegals is EXACTLY the SAME as for allowing ALL the 600 million. "In for a dime in for a dollar." Seen by this logic we are on a seamless continuum differing only in matter of degree.

What Trooper York, et al argue for is an America that is not a nation at all, but a mere geographical wide-spot on the Earth where people may have leave to come and go as they wish to ply their trade--all the while availing themselves of the resources provided by registered voters and tax-paying citizens. What Trooper York is proposing is a formula the logic of which ultimately argues for importing the entire population of the world to within our borders.

(And if you think that concern about "boat people" is a mere academic exercise--a figment of my fevered imagination, they should check out what is happening right now down in Oz with Indonesian boat people "refugee" "asylum-seekers.")

Certain people should acquaint themselves with the book "Camp of the Saints."

Please list all the legitimate, legally defensible "one reason or another"s for violating the law here from Day One... and then expecting to be rewarded for doing so (e.g., free college tuition for one's kids, etc.),

So... no answer for this, then?

Remember the professor's link of the other day?

"It's a bullshit question, it's impossible to answer"

The person who "gets the reward" is not the person who "violated the law." If your daddy got caught speeding, the cop would not write your ten-year-old, backseat-riding ass the ticket. If your GPA and SAT scores won you a full ride scholarship, you benefit, not your old wetback mom and dad.

I mean they might have bragging rights, and you might flip them a few bucks now and again once you become a law professor, but basically the reward belongs to you

If you grew up in this country and showed signs of being an asset to this country, why should you not stay in this country? This is just Common Sense 101.

Argument by flat assertion ("It's a bullshit question! DERRRRRF!") is the dolt's reflex; the intellectually bucktoothed equivalent of a Hail Mary pass attempted by a quadruple amputee...

... and that, honeylamb, is precisely the reason Team 'Rat couldn't even strongarm enough of its own members to make the grade, ultimately, re: a simple cloture vote. Whenever your rote response to considered, principled queries amounts to nothing more than a pinched, querulous "... just... just 'cause, is all!" accompanied by a sulky footstamp: your opposition will interpret that as nothing more substantial than bad faith posturing. And rightly so.

Try more logic and less poutrage, next time. You'll just keep losing, otherwise, until you do so.

I'm not finished reading this fascinating back and forth, but let me just chime in now. Trooper, you say our pasttimes and entertainment are better. Have you been to Mexico? Have you talked to Mexicans who've crossed over to earn wages to send back home? A couple I talked to at least had little shacks out in the middle of nowhere in Mexico where they could have a second wife. I'm not meaning to judge, but I'm saying it was not all that uncommon a thing. I hope you're joking when you say our entertainments are better. I don't think many Mexicans would agree with you. Tacos ARE better than hot dogs! Good grief. I know you have a lot of experience walking from one store to the next in the long established societies of New York and meeting various immigrants who work in them. But just consider that what people are trying to stress to you is that central California is a more ephemeral situation than NY or NYC. Come on: it's apples and oranges. I remember back in the early 90s, a colleague from California (I was in DC) just let loose with a diatribe against illegal immigration. I was taken aback and kind of offended. Now I would not be. Maybe you need to go to Mexico or central California. It's not like NY everywhere.

Our way is better. We just have to show them that hot dogs and Yankee baseball and taking your senorita out on a warm summer night is the way to go.++++

This demonstrates to me that you think people in other cultures don't know how to entertain themselves on a warm night, either here or in their countries of origin. How ludicrous. Mexicans are EXTREMELY romantic. You need to expand your horizons, son.

There are blocks you can walk down where every sign is in Chinese. Or Spanish. Or Thai. Or Russian. So you talk to the people and learn a few words. It was no different than when I was a kid and everyone spoke Italian. Even a half a mick like me. This is nothing new for New York.

New York is a small town, just like San Fransico is a small town. I know, I lived in SF for quite a few years. Are there are ethnic neighborhoods in a small town with a lot of people, of course there are. That is the way of cities.

California is a huge state with millions of illegals who are not just creating cute little ethnic neighborhoods with interesting food. They are taking over whole towns, entire geographic areas.

Turning the State into a Mini Mexico with slums riddled with gangs, large pockets of extreme poverty, unsanitary living conditions.

The illegal immigrant plague is also creating the other Mexico, flip side, which is wealthy people retreating into gated communiies, segregating themselves from the poverty....AND more importantly benefiting from the impoverished others.

I know this also, because we lived in Mexico for many years. My family (grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins) for 40 years and enjoyed the priviledged life. Maids, nannies, gardeners, walled haciendas, chaufeured Bently's, cooks, etc. Being born and raised the USA, despite living in Mexico for some time and visiting yearly, we (my immediate family) were not able to completely turn a blind eye to the distinction between the extreme poverty and the wealthy lifestyle (as nice as THAT was). Life in Mexico is what it is. I see it happening in California and it is disgusting.

In addition to the plague of illegals who are voluntarily bringing their poverty and life style with them......they are dragging the rest of working class California down into permanent poverty with them.

And you think.....no problemo, because you know one or two hard working illegals and you can finally get a good tamale.

You "guess" as ineptly as you reason, then. The remainder of your posting -- predicated as it was upon the specious argument burbled in its opening paragraph -- collapsed due to its complete and utter lack of any intellectually coherent underpinning.

This all should have been rather more than obvious after my previous response, quite frankly.

My prescription is to Americanize these beaners, zipperheads and donkeys. Not to buy into the multicultural bullshit that HT is selling.

American is better by a mile.

How can you compare a taco and a hot dog. The freaking taco breaks into a million pieces when you bite into it. You basicly have chille on a corn chip dude. That sucks.

Now when you have a solid all american hot dog in your hand you can hold it with one hand and have the other hand free to give the finger to Lem and the rest of the Boston Fans. Hot dogs are way better.

American ways are the best. That's why all these greasy illegals come here. What you have to do is bust them out of "Cute" ethnic enclaves and make them ALl American. That's what we have always done. That's what we should do. Don't accept the balkanization. Get into their face. We can easily sort the sheepfrom the goats. We can find the ones who want to be God fearing AllAmericans.

I didn't realize I was promoting multiculturalism. I meant to say that there are things that people from other cultures do that they might prefer to keep doing rather than change over to the American version of that. Saying Mexican food is good is not necessarily saying American food is not. Tacos are good. Hot dogs are good too. Seriously? We are talking about this shit? Short cut it. Your way won't work, it can't work with the permissiveness today. People will want to keep their love shacks in their countries while enjoying the inflated wages of working here in the US. You say it's about "ways," I say it's about wages.

Saying Mexican food is good is not necessarily saying American food is not.

LoL. We are having Pozole for dinner tonight.

Multiculturalism is one of the evils of liberal thought. Previous immigrants blended into the mix of American culture. This didn't mean that they gave up their idenity. Thank goodness they didn't otherwise we wouldn't have all the great food that we have in our culture.

However, they did adopt American culture, learned English, learned the History and Laws of America.

Now, the libs encourage separatism. In fact they want it and create race and class warfare.

All this is beside the point of the illegals, breaking the law and the majority of them destroying the economy by working under the table, not paying taxes and FREELOADING on the entitlement system.

"Now, the libs encourage separatism. In fact they want it and create race and class warfare."

That's exactly right and exactly what I mean. It is a war and we are letting the liberal pussies control the rules of engagement. We have to say taco's and chop suey are great little treats but if you want to be a real American you have to conform to our ways not your multicultural bullshit with equal respect for theirs way. Fuck their ways and the donkey they rode in on. The have to be become red blooded all american assholes just like the ones that original stole this great land from the Indians.

Still, Trooper, you're playing at the edges. Multiculturalism, as odious as it may be to you, is not the fundamental issue here. That issue is the law(s) that encourages illegal immigration or turns the other way in the face of it. Even people who loathe multiculturalism often prefer to look the other way if it means cheaper labor. And yeah, there are still others who prefer to look the other way in the name of multiculturalism. But IMO that is not what is driving illegal immigration at all.

One factor in assimilation was that immigration was a one-way trip. The migrant assumed he was leaving friends and family behind forever. As a result, the migrant often clubbed together with others from his homeland, which helped reinforce his old identity.