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Well, this is no longer in the process of being formed because he is no longer studying with the teacher of this technique and only did so for a short time. Also, the OP is going to teach himself this technique that he doesn't fully know regardless of Bruce's suggestion.

It is the beginning stage of some process that is aiming for something that neither we nor the OP know, precisely because it did stop in the beginning. It is not a technique. It is something that might lead to a technique. The OP might pursue the idea and see where it leads and maybe he will learn something useful through observation and experimentation. I did see advice/suggestion, but it was from you, Morodiene, and I agree with it - namely to work with a teacher. I did not see any suggestion by Bruce on what he should be doing (re: despite his suggestion) - I might have missed it.

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Lastly, I'm pretty sure Bruce's recommendation was tongue-in-cheek, saying that he will not be able to play scales like that at that speed with accuracy and evenness.

In fact, I'm sure that it was meant that way. But for someone who seems to be still at the beginning of learning, such ideas can be taken literally, or they can be taken as a challenge to be met by hook or by crook. This could do harm. It has taken me a lot of time to get over injury and some other after effects from my first studies, and I would not want such things to happen to anyone else. This is NOT something to be aimed for, and it is useless to go down that path.

Well, this is no longer in the process of being formed because he is no longer studying with the teacher of this technique and only did so for a short time. Also, the OP is going to teach himself this technique that he doesn't fully know regardless of Bruce's suggestion.

It is the beginning stage of some process that is aiming for something that neither we nor the OP know, precisely because it did stop in the beginning. It is not a technique. It is something that might lead to a technique. The OP might pursue the idea and see where it leads and maybe he will learn something useful through observation and experimentation. I did see advice/suggestion, but it was from you, Morodiene, and I agree with it - namely to work with a teacher. I did not see any suggestion by Bruce on what he should be doing (re: despite his suggestion) - I might have missed it.

Quote:

Lastly, I'm pretty sure Bruce's recommendation was tongue-in-cheek, saying that he will not be able to play scales like that at that speed with accuracy and evenness.

In fact, I'm sure that it was meant that way. But for someone who seems to be still at the beginning of learning, such ideas can be taken literally, or they can be taken as a challenge to be met by hook or by crook. This could do harm. It has taken me a lot of time to get over injury and some other after effects from my first studies, and I would not want such things to happen to anyone else. This is NOT something to be aimed for, and it is useless to go down that path.

Well, saying it doesn't mean one should do it, nor does it mean that not saying it will mean the OP won't try to do it anyways. Meaning, it seems he's made up his mind to teach himself this technique, and who knows what he will try to play with it? It's his decision either way.

It's so heartening to read that readers know "what Bruce meant;" it saves me some typing.

I believe it was the OP who raised the challenge in the following excerpts from his posts on this thread (some editing to compensate for his strange spacing):

I have revisited this method again for the last few weeks and I have to say my scales sound less clumsy more even more fluid and overall it is a better sound (2004032)

I didn't say this before but the only other time I saw this method used was by a young guy in sam ash he had a Ukrainian teacher also and he played with the fingers standing straight and I have to say he played the most beautiful scales. (2005962)

[sam ash? Who/What is sam ash?]

the fingers are straight but the hand is held just high enough to allow the fingers to reach the keybed straight in fact I am not sure I know exactly the mechanism but I can assure you with utmost confidence you are wrong in saying that it is impossible to play the scales this way quite the contrary the scales become very fluid I am already starting to see progressinstead of debating the issue why not wait until the end of January after working with this method for a few more weeks I will post another video and you tell me what you see.(2006594)

Admittedly MM = 120 per quarter note might not be a goal for a month-long attempt at reviving this manner of playing scales. So, I'll settle for any tempo - but surely more than one octave and with hands together - that shows fluidity and ease of execution.

Surely only a minimal amount of common sense would dictate that one wouldn't practice this "method" at the ultimate tempo. Let the OP give us what he can in the time he has with the skills available.

Surely only a minimal amount of common sense would dictate that one wouldn't practice this "method" at the ultimate tempo. Let the OP give us what he can in the time he has with the skills available.

The OP got the start of some kind of training that would eventually lead somewhere if the teacher's approach is ok. It is not anywhere yet. Right now I'm in remediation getting proper technique for the first time, and anything I have is in between and on its way to becoming something. The difference is that I have a few years experience and this is the second instrument I'm working with, so I understand it a bit more. In my case I know that what I am doing will lead to a technique but I don't have that technique. It is right for me to continue what I am doing. It would be idiotic to "prove" that it will go somewhere by doing something like you suggested. Failing at it also would not prove that the instructions I'm getting are false --- only that this is the wrong time, because the technique is not there.

There is no reason whatsoever that the OP should do this. It's not the stage he is at. There is no benefit, and it could be harmful. Again.

The OP got the start of some kind of training that would eventually lead somewhere if the teacher's approach is ok. It is not anywhere yet. Right now I'm in remediation getting proper technique for the first time, and anything I have is in between and on its way to becoming something. The difference is that I have a few years experience and this is the second instrument I'm working with, so I understand it a bit more. In my case I know that what I am doing will lead to a technique but I don't have that technique. It is right for me to continue what I am doing. It would be idiotic to "prove" that it will go somewhere by doing something like you suggested. Failing at it also would not prove that the instructions I'm getting are false --- only that this is the wrong time, because the technique is not there.

There is no reason whatsoever that the OP should do this. It's not the stage he is at. There is no benefit, and it could be harmful. Again.

It seems as though you should be arguing with the OP about his technique which either is flawed in concept or in execution (or both) to help prevent him from injuring himself, and not those of us who are also telling him his technique as it is isn't really helping him and that he needs a teacher's guidance.

It seems as though you should be arguing with the OP about his technique which either is flawed in concept or in execution (or both) to help prevent him from injuring himself, and not those of us who are also telling him his technique as it is isn't really helping him and that he needs a teacher's guidance.

I have insisted all along that your advice to get a teacher's guidance was the route to take. A challenge to play those scales can push in exactly the wrong direction. I think the OP has more sense than that, but still.

It seems as though you should be arguing with the OP about his technique which either is flawed in concept or in execution (or both) to help prevent him from injuring himself, and not those of us who are also telling him his technique as it is isn't really helping him and that he needs a teacher's guidance.

I have insisted all along that your advice to get a teacher's guidance was the route to take. A challenge to play those scales can push in exactly the wrong direction. I think the OP has more sense than that, but still.

Happy New Year, everyone.

My main point is that he seems to want to do this heck-or-high-water no matter what warnings he's been given by any number of qualified teachers and pianists on this site, and has not really provided any definitive proof that it is actually a legit technique.

I appreciate your concern for the OP, and agree, but I don't think he will heed that any more than anything else that has been said. If he injures himself, hopefully he'll have the sense to then seek help to undo his bad (self-taught) habits.

But now your wrist height appears to have come down quite a bit. It seems like you are demonstrating a fairly typical hand position now.

Are you trying to say that you have been practising with a high hand and straight fingers, just as an exercise to develop certain muscles, and then when you play at 120bpm you just return to a comfortable position?

Or are you claiming that this new video is depicting your new technique?

I would hope you are claiming the former rather than the latter, because your new video certainly doesn't demonstrate the high wrist/straight fingers thing you were showing at slow speed in your first video.

I'm not being sarcastic here Maduro - I'm genuinely confused about the point you are trying to make. You are playing in a way that is typical for a lot of people in your new video.

I am saying that the practice of the high hand position has allowed me to smooth out my scale playing

when I practice slowly I can get the higher hand position but at 120bpm however I find it impossible at this time to achieve anywhere near that speed. using the higher hand position but my teacher could so lets see what happens

my mid january deadline is still a little ways offI thought I would put up a few videos of me doing executingthere is definitely an improvement in my scale playing from two weeks ago and to be honest I havent been doing a whole lot of practicing

What I do notice is that one hand seems to be doing the straight finger thing more than the other.I cant tell if it is my right or my left hand since the video is reversed I am a little intoxicated right now so I certainly dont have the brain power to figure it out

It doesent really matter whether you see a positive result I am simply demonstrating that it is a method and we will all see what happens I have done it since two weeks ago perhaps 4 practice sessionsand I can hear a smoothing out of my scales

maybe it is the loosening of the wristsmaybe it is working some muscles what I do know is that my scales have improved.

first i was told this was an impossible methodnow someone is saying they dont see a benefit i am not advocating this method just saying I am going to give it a try.

I think that Maduro's temporary teacher had him try one thing in order to lead somewhere. As soon as you change one thing, other things change. It's not a method as such. If you look at the first video where he shows "before" in the air, he wiggles his fingers while keeping his arms stiff, and when he plays in the "before" way, the action is only in the fingers. But in the early video the new thing he tries gets the whole arm to move, though awkwardly with the hand at a weird angle.

If he is now demonstrating "a fairly typical hand position now", then it has settled down to where it should go. I thought this might happen. You start with the arms moving but it's awkward so you keep experimenting until it's comfortable. It should happen with a teacher who guides and tweaks, but if it looks rather normal now then the right things must have come out of it. Aren't the arms a lot more involved than in the original "before"?

I would still recommend a teacher. That is based partly on what I see and hear.

I think that Maduro's temporary teacher had him try one thing in order to lead somewhere. As soon as you change one thing, other things change. It's not a method as such. If you look at the first video where he shows "before" in the air, he wiggles his fingers while keeping his arms stiff, and when he plays in the "before" way, the action is only in the fingers. But in the early video the new thing he tries gets the whole arm to move, though awkwardly with the hand at a weird angle.

If he is now demonstrating "a fairly typical hand position now", then it has settled down to where it should go. I thought this might happen. You start with the arms moving but it's awkward so you keep experimenting until it's comfortable. It should happen with a teacher who guides and tweaks, but if it looks rather normal now then the right things must have come out of it. Aren't the arms a lot more involved than in the original "before"?

I would still recommend a teacher. That is based partly on what I see and hear.

I think there are a lot of good faith assumptions in there, keystring. Granted it's quite possible that this technique was suggested as a remedial measure to some degree, however that is not what Maduro is describing - nor is it his recollection of watching his teacher's technique. Maduro has been quite adamant that his goal is to play the way he saw his teacher play - that is, with an unusually high wrist and straight, almost vertical fingers. It wasn't described to him as a remedial measure (or at least that's not what he understood it to mean), and his teacher still plays with that technique all the time for scalar passages.

So with that in mind, the second demonstration video needs to be demonstrating these aims - yet it does not. Regardless of whether there has been a misapprehension about the teacher, or even a false memory of what he saw her do with this hand position, the goals expressed in the first video are not carried through to the second video. That is visible to the naked eye. So there is no self-contained logic to this process.

Whether or not Maduro feels more comfortable or fluent now is beside the point, IMO. The crux of his reasoning wasn't whether he was being remediated but rather that he was going to start using a technique involved a high wrist and straight fingers. The moment he deviates from that, I think the argument is null and void. The second video demonstrates neither precision nor fluency, nor the visible evidence of this "new" technique. All we have is a subjective assertion that his scales are now better, and more fluent. It's hard to glean much from that unless we actually see a different technique in action - and with a great deal of technical control and precision. Until that happens, this is highly speculative at best. All I see is a typical hand position that I've seen hundreds of people using - nothing unusual about it in the least. And a performance that is still far from masterful. The rest appears to be self-delusion because Maduro actually believes his hand looks different, but it really doesn't. He believes it sounds better too, and maybe it does, but it's still only comparative and probably more the result of increased practice - given there is no new technique in evidence.

So I tend to think this is more in the mind. A placebo effect, if you will. He thinks he's doing something and feels it is working - even though the video clearly shows normally curved fingers. I'm having trouble reconciling those two concepts. I think increased practice and more focus is what's reaping some results, possibly some subtle change in the musculature, but definitely no paradigm shifting alteration of technique.

Maduro has been quite adamant that his goal is to play the way he saw his teacher play - that is, with an unusually high wrist and straight, almost vertical fingers.

I checked back. He does not talk about watching his teacher play with a high wrist. He says his teacher told him to make his fingers straight, and this is an old memory. I duplicated this, and you might try it too. Start with your fingers curved as in his "before", with your arms parallel to the floor. Then without adjusting anything else, make your fingers stand up straight from the keys. Something will have to rise. If you don't raise your forearm, then your wrist will curve like a hump. This is how he ended up with that curved wrist at first.

In the new video when he tries things out, you also see him pivoting from finger to finger. This rotation of the hand is also something we do in playing. I think what's happening is that he is falling into some of the extra motions that are there when people play effectively. Maybe she had demonstrated that kind of rotation.

The main difference that I see between "before" and after - and I think it's an important one - is that more than the fingers are moving.

Maduro has been quite adamant that his goal is to play the way he saw his teacher play - that is, with an unusually high wrist and straight, almost vertical fingers.

I checked back. He does not talk about watching his teacher play with a high wrist. He says his teacher told him to make his fingers straight, and this is an old memory.

Maduro did say this (among other things):

Originally Posted By: maduro

all I can say is her scales soundedawesome. and I was quite lucid during our lessons and yea all of the fingers stood like posts straight up.

I don't think I'm misunderstanding anything there.

Quote:

I duplicated this, and you might try it too. Start with your fingers curved as in his "before", with your arms parallel to the floor. Then without adjusting anything else, make your fingers stand up straight from the keys. Something will have to rise. If you don't raise your forearm, then your wrist will curve like a hump. This is how he ended up with that curved wrist at first.

In the new video when he tries things out, you also see him pivoting from finger to finger. This rotation of the hand is also something we do in playing. I think what's happening is that he is falling into some of the extra motions that are there when people play effectively. Maybe she had demonstrated that kind of rotation.

The main difference that I see between "before" and after - and I think it's an important one - is that more than the fingers are moving.

I'm not specifically commenting on the validity of this technique, only that I see some discrepancy between the stated aims and what is actually happening. I feel that you are having to be quite generous in giving this the benefit of the doubt. At the very least, I don't think this process has been well explained - nor the evidence compelling enough to be championing it as strongly as he is.

But hey, that's just one man's opinion. We all reason things in our own way so none of us is free from bias. If I see better video evidence, I'll be more convinced.

He did not talk about his teacher's wrists doing that weird thing. I think that was a side effect. And in experimenting, a lucky break is that something right happened. It could have been the other way around. We also don't know what happened in that studio.

He did not talk about his teacher's wrists doing that weird thing. I think that was a side effect. And in experimenting, a lucky break is that something right happened. It could have been the other way around. We also don't know what happened in that studio.

A few too many maybes in this for me! I feel that we are all being asked to take this on faith. It needs some decent evidence.

#2010438 - 01/07/1306:52 AMRe: is there a european technique difference with hand position
[Re: maduro]

pianoloverus
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 21721
Loc: New York City

The demonstration and video are frankly nonsense in relation to the description in the demonstration and the description in the opening post in this thread and in other posts by the OP in this thread.

The OP never plays with completely straight fingers held completely vertically(the verbal description given in the recent videos and in his previous posts and videos) at all. In the first video he plays with a slightly high wrist(which in itself certainly looks awkward and is rarely done by good players)but the fingers are nowhere near vertical or straight. Perhaps the first joint of each finger is close to vertical which is 100% different. After playing a few notes he stops on some note and then raises his wrist much higher straightens out his fingers more and says something like "See my fingers are straight and vertical". But he never does any playing in that position because it's virtually impossible to play scales that way.

In the second video where he plays scales at 120 he simply plays with somewhat higher wrist than normal. His fingers are neither straight(they are curved with the first joint only being straight)nor anywhere near vertical(again just the first joint may be close to vertical but this is totally different from both the verbal description given by the opening post on the videos and posts on this thread).

#2010440 - 01/07/1306:58 AMRe: is there a european technique difference with hand position
[Re: maduro]

pianoloverus
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 21721
Loc: New York City

The demonstration and video are frankly nonsense in relation to the description in the demonstration and the description in the opening post in this thread and in other posts by the OP in this thread.

The OP never plays with completely straight fingers held completely vertically(the verbal description given in the recent videos and in his previous posts and videos) at all. In the first video he plays with a slightly high wrist(which in itself certainly looks awkward and is rarely done by good players)but the fingers are nowhere near vertical or straight. Perhaps the first joint of each finger is close to vertical which is 100% different. After playing a few notes he stops on some note and then raises his wrist much higher straightens out his fingers more and says something like "See my fingers are straight and vertical". But he never does any playing in that position because it's virtually impossible to play scales that way.

In the second video where he plays scales at 120 he simply plays with somewhat higher wrist than normal. His fingers are neither straight(they are curved with the first joint only being straight)nor anywhere near vertical(again just the first joint may be close to vertical but this is totally different from both the verbal description given by the opening post on the videos and posts on this thread).

Perhaps the OP is really thinking of just the finger tip(or first joint of the finger)in his descriptions as I suppose it's at least possible to play scales with just the finger tip (first joint)at or close to vertical. But that has nothing to do with the actually verbal descriptions he gave or the hand position he demonstrates when he stops in his demonstration video and clearly changes his hand and finger position from what he used while playing the scale.

I want you to remember something thoughI originally asked if anyone knew of this methodsince no one seemed to know what I was talking about and to add to that ridiculed me

I took up the challenge and said I would try it for a month and come back and show what improved if anything.after four days of practice I noticed some improvement so put out a teaser video

if I am still not using straight fingers That is probably because I am moving too fastsince it seems like you guys wont acknowledge the technique unless I put some speed to it.so give me another week we will see what happens then

Maduro, what you have is advice by your teacher back then on one isolated aspect of playing. If you had stayed with that teacher, she would have given you other bits of advice as she watched what happened with the way you play. You do not have a "method" --- you have specific advice given to you at a particular time, and you seem to be using it in a good way.

In fact, the idea of a "method" is probably not a good one. The body works in complex way. Three excellent pianists my look totally different, but the way all the parts interconnect work with each of them. This is an important thing to remember as a student should you get that teacher again, or another teacher. With a good teacher you will get different advice at different times - some of it may even appear to conflict. But everything works together.

Consider this one thing: the fingers move (the way you played "before"), and the body also moves (arms at elbows and shoulders, hands from wrists, body at torso, legs and feet doing their thing). So a teacher might give a "finger" advice that ends up affecting how you move your arms, or "arm advice" that tends up affecting how you move your fingers.

You have probably thrown a few people by using the words "technique" and "method". The "technique" (good or bad) is what is evolving from what you are doing. The idea of straight fingers by itself is not a technique.

Quote:

if I am still not using straight fingers that is probably because I am moving too fast......

No, that is not the reason. The straight fingers suggested by your teacher might have been a vehicle for getting you out of the cramped, "finger-only" playing you had before. I would bet that if you went to that teacher right now and showed her this video, that she would say "Good, this is what I had hoped would happen." Consider the fact that her advice might have been a means to the end.

You have not had lessons long enough to experience lessons that evolve. You had them for a short period, got one stage, and now you think that the stage is the complete advice. It is one reason why I suggest (among other people) that you work with a teacher, who will say "Good, you've reached the first step. Now, because of what I see, try this next thing."

First, it makes it easier to keep the nail joint firm. For pianists who have not yet developed strength in the nail joint, playing with a more vertical finger makes it easier to keep the nail joint from collapsing.

I mention this because it's a problem the OP has. You can see the nail joint collapse quite a bit, but it's not as bad or as often with the higher wrist.

Second, playing with a higher wrist can help avoid the problem of grasping. In the later demonstration video, we see the OP stand up on a tall finger - it's obvious he's not curling or grasping with his fingers. The descent of the key comes more from gravity and a strong bridge than a grasping motion. (Which seems consistent with the OP's pedigree. If his teacher is involved with the Copland school, there's likely to be some Taubman influence - I believe Golandsky teaches there.)

Finally, the post title seems to have thrown people for a loop. We're not really talking about schools of thought or European vs. American or whatever. We're talking about physiology, and there a lot of shades of grey. I would also suggest that the experimentation and attention, not necessarily the technique itself, is at least partly responsible for the progress.

I would encourage the OP to continue exploring wrist height, hand shape, and finger/joint angles as he practices. He should also remain open to the idea that this, while helpful now, may or may not be helpful in the future and to keep in mind that we don't always perform in the same manner that we practice. (He already seems to understand this on some level, since the 120 demonstration obviously has a much different technical setup than the other videos.)

_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

not to discredit anyone else there have been some really good comments on this threadbut these last two were very objective and not attacking well constructed criticsims and insights and very encouraging which is why I come to this forum to get help and advice and to share my knowledge with the hope that someone may benefit from my experiences both good and bad.

not to discredit anyone else there have been some really good comments on this threadbut these last two were very objective and not attacking well constructed criticsims and insights and very encouraging which is why I come to this forum to get help and advice and to share my knowledge with the hope that someone may benefit from my experiences both good and bad.

Maduro, I'm quite sure that you have included my posts in the "attacking" category, but if that's what you took out of it you are not listening properly. I am concerned with the fact that your videos don't seem to match what you describe as a stated aim of your new approach. I'm challenging you to make a unified and consistent approach here. Namely, your second video should show very clear evidence of the technique you describe. To me, it doesn't - therefore we can't really evaluate the technique you are talking about. Nor can you. Your responses tend toward devaluing those that challenge what you are saying and celebrating those who are encouraging with you. But really we are all on the same side here. We are all looking to see how this goes, to see real improvement and to see this unusual technique in action in a precise and musical way. I don't think anybody is interested in dressing you down on a personal level. I certainly am not. Best of luck.

I just want to say that a lot of things can affect how one perceives another's technique. Maybe while playing a scale some fingers were standing straight up, while others were not. This could give the illusion that all of them were. Maybe it was just his perspective. I know my technique looks different from above, the side, or the back. He could have been seeing a completely normal scale played ff. Furthermore, be wary of taking things too literally. It's hard to believe that someone could play a scale smoothly with all fingers straight up. With their different lengths one would have a helluva time adjusting other body parts to make all the keys in a scale go down the same speed.