I had a nightmarish experience with the doggies yesterday out on the doggie trail, though things didn't turn out nearly as badly as they could have. We saw some people walking in our direction, so I leashed Hudson the wonder dog, since she has developed a bad habit of getting into scrapes with other alpha dogs since she was attacked herself some years ago. The people turned out to be a mother and daughter with this teeny little poodle mix that was maybe all of four pounds. The dogs started playfully chasing each other around, so we de-leashed them and stood around a bit talking about how cute the scene was, when it stopped being so cute: Out of nowhere, Hudson picked up this small dog by the back of her neck and started shaking it back and forth. Thankfully, she was just playing, and I was close enough to get to her pretty quickly, but this went on for a couple of seconds, which seemed like a year at the time. The reason I know she was playing is that the other dog survived, it actually didn't have a scratch (in fact this was a gentle form of play, because she shakes stuffed toys far more vigorously than this). Anyway, the woman was amazingly chill about this, she refused to even take my phone number in case it turned out the dog needed veterinary care, and very graciously accepted my profuse apologies. Meanwhile, her little daughter was all traumatized, and it breaks my heart to picture her all teary-eyed. Hudson and I are pretty traumatized as well, as my scolding has her acting sheepish ever since (she's very sensitive for a cold-blooded killer). I guess I'll look into some remedial training for her, but she's pushing 10, so that probably won't be easy. Meanwhile I'm afraid I can't trust her off the leash even when I think we are the only ones on the trail, and I cannot figure out how I can run enough for her to get the exercise she needs (she's easily twice as fast as me). I may need to get a bike and ride with her on the leash or something, which sounds like a recipe for a different form of disaster. Man this sucks.

My yellow will grab something, and instinctintvly holds it very softly in his mouth like a hunting dog....didn't teach him this, but he does it with everything until another dog tries to take it away, then he holds it tight.

From what I understand this is a trait of bird dogs, who need to bring back your foul without making it too foul with their teeth. Airedales are good at this, which I imagine is how Huddy picked up that dog without breaking its skin... they have a reputation for being able to carry eggs in their mouths without cracking them. Not that we've ever had occasion to test this.

My yellow will grab something, and instinctintvly holds it very softly in his mouth like a hunting dog....didn't teach him this, but he does it with everything until another dog tries to take it away, then he holds it tight.

From what I understand this is a trait of bird dogs, who need to bring back your foul without making it too foul with their teeth. Airedales are good at this, which I imagine is how Huddy picked up that dog without breaking its skin... they have a reputation for being able to carry eggs in their mouths without cracking them. Not that we've ever had occasion to test this.

One of my retrievers grabbed a rabbit (with mitsi) and took it out in one shift jerk, and even more surprising at the time was how utterly certain it was in doing so. The dog had never killed anything before and swings it's toys about all over the place but this time it was a seasoned pro.

Yeah, my black lab does a one bite lighting flash snap kill on tree rats, er I mean squirrels. The German Short hair and yellow lab play with it until the black lab gets involved and ruins the fun.

They also chased and got a rabbit - the black lab made quick work of it and they enjoyyed the spoils.

My yellow will grab something, and instinctintvly holds it very softly in his mouth like a hunting dog....didn't teach him this, but he does it with everything until another dog tries to take it away, then he holds it tight.

Damn, I gotta get home and see my pups now - all day talking about the little basterds.

IIRC Hudson is a terrier. If she wanted to kill it it'd have been dead in one shake, no doubt at all about that. One of my retrievers grabbed a rabbit (with mitsi) and took it out in one shift jerk, and even more surprising at the time was how utterly certain it was in doing so. The dog had never killed anything before and swings it's toys about all over the place but this time it was a seasoned pro. Seriously, if I'd been out on a shoot or something with hired dogs I would have remarked how efficient and well trained the dog was. My oafish, utterly lovable pet.

Poodles are bred to look like toys. Hudson treated it as a toy but new full well that it was live and treated it with much more care. There is no remedy other than for people to stop breeding dogs as if they were toys.

Cutter wrote on Jan 29, 2010, 18:26:You may need to take her back to school - obedience school. As her alpha she should be doing everything you tell her without pause. You yell at her once and she should freeze on the spot. With my old alsatian if he was getting to rough with other dogs I'd just have to yell "HEY" or anything for that matter - more about tone and volume - and he'd stop whatever he was doing and focus on me.

Of course you are right in principle, but in fairness, we are talking apples and oranges: German Shepherds are one of the most obedient trainable dog breeds, and Airedale Terriers are, well, Terriers. Terriers are bred to be what I think of as "semi-obedient" as their jobs usually involve independent decisions, making getting the level of obedience you describe quite difficult to achieve.

To illustrate, I turn to the Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Shepherd_DogGerman Shepherds were bred specifically for their intelligence, a trait for which they are now renowned. They are considered to be the third most intelligent breed of dog, behind Border Collies and Poodles. In the book The Intelligence of Dogs, author Stanley Coren ranked the breed third for intelligence. He found that they had the ability to learn simple tasks after only five repetitions and obeyed the first command given 95% of the time.

Compare that with:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airedale_terrierThe Airedale Terrier, like most Terriers, has been bred to hunt independently. As a result, the dog is very intelligent, independent, strong-minded, stoic, and can sometimes be stubborn. They rank 29th in Stanley Coren's The Intelligence of Dogs, being of above average working/obedience intelligence. The Airedale is a dog with a great sense of humor. For those who can laugh along with their Airedale, the dog can provide a unique and entertaining company. For those who don't appreciate being outsmarted by their dog, owning an Airedale can be a trying experience.

You may need to take her back to school - obedience school. As her alpha she should be doing everything you tell her without pause. You yell at her once and she should freeze on the spot. With my old alsatian if he was getting to rough with other dogs I'd just have to yell "HEY" or anything for that matter - more about tone and volume - and he'd stop whatever he was doing and focus on me.

"Lights going out and a kick in the balls. That's entertainment, that's entertainment"

Blue: it's obvious that your dog prefers her playmates "Shaken, not stirred." Seriously, she may not have intended to kill the little dog, but this is instinctive behavior. Large terriers are well known for this. Keeping dogs on a short leash is the best way to avoid problems. (She may shake toys more vigorously because they are smaller and lighter than this dog.) Riding a bike with a leashed dog would be bad for both of you. How about fetch and frisbee?

Yosemite Sam wrote on Jan 29, 2010, 13:52:Um that little maneuver by Hudson is used to kill prey by snapping its neck, no play there, it was meant to kill, good thing you intervined in time cuase that little dog would have been toast.

I guess I didn't make my point clearly enough. She had more than enough time to snap its neck with a single shake, much less a couple of second's worth: the time I saw her kill a squirrel like this it took a split second. She is more than strong enough to have done the same to this puppy, she was more moving it back and forth than shaking: When she shakes a toy (or squirrel), what's in her mouth gets slapped against her shoulders violently. There is no mistaking what happened yesterday for her kill move. She is also more than capable of having bitten through its spinal cord, rather than not break its skin.

In short, she was obviously being intentionally "gentle" so to speak, and if she were not, the other dog would indeed be dead now.

If you have the slightest doubt about that, I can post a picture of her teeth to give an idea of the kind of potential danger they represent.

Ya that does sound like playing, from your original story I pictured the violent snapping of the head back and fourth.

I've run into a similar problem with my dog, except I was on the other side. I had an alpha dachshund male, Baldwin, that my mother in law used to babysit for us. She had a Welsh Corgi who was definitely second fiddle around our dog. One day, however, the Corgi, Yogi, did what Hudson did. My MIL ended up tearing the skin off the back of her hand trying to separate them. Needless to say, "Ding-Dong-Doggy-Care" was over at that point. Our dog was also not injured but clearly (ahem) shaken, by the incident.:|

My wife and I have worried about the same thing happening with our dogs. We worry that our dogs won't be able to tell the difference between one of their toys and some of the small dogs we occasionally encounter during walks, visiting friends, etc.

Luckily, this encounter went in your favor, as it could have been much worse. Now you've got some time to plan a strategy.

Wow, for over one whole hour? Such lucky dogs! I guess the 12 hours or so mine get everyday, barring inclement weather, is just overkill. Nevermind that most respectable large breed dog breeders and vets will tell you that large dogs need multiple hours of exercise throughout the day instead of when their owners decide to take them to the park.

Well sir, I own a home, and have a yard, albeit a small one, they are out there all the time as well. Weekends see 1-3 hours at a larger park that takes a while to get to. Believe me, I would rather live out of the cities - but we don't all have ranch homes to live on.

Are my dogs happy? I would say happier than most.I know co-wrokers and others that their dogs never getout of their house/yard, or they get a "walk" around the neighborhood - which boggles my mind. I can't imagine such a situation as a dog owner. I yell at my older brother bc his lab is a sloth bc of little to no excercise, and they have a decent sized yard.

="xXBatmanXx"Jan 29, 2010, 14:04]Apparently you are not aware of how great of a home security system dogs are....

I have 3 so I would state that I am aware of their value in the assistance of securing your home. However, they are hardly the end all and be all as you're attempting to imply,

My "inner city" dogs have better lives than most who live in the burbs or country. They are excercised EVERYDAY for over an hour of walking/running/playing and are more social than most dogs we come across.

Wow, for over one whole hour? Such lucky dogs! I guess the 12 hours or so mine get everyday, barring inclement weather, is just overkill. Nevermind that most respectable large breed dog breeders and vets will tell you that large dogs need multiple hours of exercise throughout the day instead of when their owners decide to take them to the park.

I interact with my dogs, and talking to most dog owners, and the BN dog owners, that is the most important part.

I would concur. My dogs are part of the family.

My idea (and experience) of farm dogs is they are the laziest dogs on the planet.

I don't own a farm so I can't speak about the behavior of "farm dogs". I do, however, live on a ranch and these dogs bust their asses on a daily basis herding, playing, chasing after dillos, coons, balls, frisbees or coyotes. Come to think of it, I don't know of a dog that lives on a ranch that acts like a dog that is also lazy.

Large breed dogs are work dogs, or derivatives thereof, and I can't see how cooping them up in a townhouse, condo or apartment all day then letting them out for "over an hour" is going to make that dog the happiest it can be. It's not getting to do what it was bred to do. It's like herding dogs that are adopted/bought as "family pets" but the family doesn't do anything with the dog that plays to the dogs nature. Those dogs, for example, have to have a job. Whether its herding cattle, sheep or kids or fetching a ball for hours a day, they have to do it or they get depressed. It's really, really sad.