I really liked the new dough formulation I tried for a Mack’s pizza yesterday. I really don’t know what changed the dough, the stretching ability and the final taste of the crust, but I liked it better than last week when I did a two day cold ferment with a little different dough formulation. I sure don’t know, but maybe the way the dough was mixed had something to do with the better results yesterday. Last week I added the oil last in the mix. I wouldn’t think that would change things so much, but it sure seemed like it did. Steve and I also thought the taste of the crust with just a one day cold fermentation was very good.

The dough balls were pressed on the same way when opening them into skins this week and there wasn’t as much oven spring this week while baking them in the oven. The dough balls were so easy to open and the skins could be stretched easily and the skins could be tossed really well too. The bottom crust had just the right amount of crispness for me. The rim crust had a nice crisp too and the inside of the rim crust was moist and not bready.

The new formulation also could make a decent Greek style pizza.

I had different comments from customers that said the pizzas tasted like a Grotto’s pizza. I hate to leave the Lehmann dough formulation because it has served me well, but all of my customers so far like the “boardwalk style” of pizzas better. Since I will only be using one flour brand and one cheese, it will also make life easier for me. I still do have a whole 50 lb. bag of Kyrol flour and don’t know what I am going to do with that now. I had also always used olive oil in my Lehmann doughs, so using vegetable oil will also be less expensive for me too.

I guess what I am making is a modified Mack’s clone.

Even though Pinocchio, Geppetto and Jiminy Cricket were not along at market yesterday they must have helped me somehow. They must have been thinking that wouldn’t it be nice if Norma’s “boardwalk style” of pizza was like a real Mack’s pizza of long ago.

Jiminy Cricket is right, that “When your heart is in your dream, no request is too extreme”. I think the song “When you Wish Upon a Star” is a beautifully sung by Cliff Edwards with his high tenor falsetto voice. I also love that song and could listen to it over and over again.

I think it is sad though that Cliff Edwards real life didn’t turn out well. Cliff ended up penniless, but his song will always live on.

The most recent dough formulation you used is actually pretty much in line with a NY style dough formulation except that you are using a lower thickness factor than is normally used for a NY street style pizza. Can you tell us what size the pizzas were and was that size used in the expanded dough calculating tool? It's possible that the smaller rim is due to the fact that the dough is being spread over a larger surface area, resulting in less dough at the rim.

The most recent dough formulation you used is actually pretty much in line with a NY style dough formulation except that you are using a lower thickness factor than is normally used for a NY street style pizza. Can you tell us what size the pizzas were and was that size used in the expanded dough calculating tool? It's possible that the smaller rim is due to the fact that the dough is being spread over a larger surface area, resulting in less dough at the rim.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me that the most recent dough formulation I used is actually pretty much in line with a NY style dough formulation. The pizza size used in the expanded dough calculation tool was 17”.

I can understand that the smaller rim might be due to the fact that the dough is being spread over a larger surface area. I never will understand why even little changes in variables, or mixing methods changes something.

It looks like I misspoke in my last post on the thickness factor. I couldn't recall your ever using a thickness factor of around 0.06, so I went back to Reply 1565 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg246169.html#msg246169, where you posted your latest dough formulation, to see what you actually did. I had a hard time reading the formulation shown there but with a little effort I was able to reconstruct the formulation using the expanded dough calculating tool. In the course of doing so, I also saw that you used Kosher salt (Morton's) rather than regular salt. For the record, this is the dough formulation you used:

The above thickness factor is in line with what is used for the NY street style pizza. So, I do not have a good explanation at this point as to why the rim of the pizza you showed did not rise that much. If you stretched the skin out beyond 17", that would help explain your results.

It looks like I misspoke in my last post on the thickness factor. I couldn't recall your ever using a thickness factor of around 0.06, so I went back to Reply 1565 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg246169.html#msg246169, where you posted your latest dough formulation, to see what you actually did. I had a hard time reading the formulation shown there but with a little effort I was able to reconstruct the formulation using the expanded dough calculating tool. In the course of doing so, I also saw that you used Kosher salt (Morton's) rather than regular salt. For the record, this is the dough formulation you used:

The above thickness factor is in line with what is used for the NY street style pizza. So, I do not have a good explanation at this point as to why the rim of the pizza you showed did not rise that much. If you stretched the skin out beyond 17", that would help explain your results.

Peter

Peter,

In my last post I should have told you about what TF I used, to save you from having to do the calculations again. The only reason I didn’t is because I recalled I had used 0.08 something, but have my print out sheet at market. I knew the pizzas I made yesterday sure weren’t as thin as around 0.06. Thanks for doing the calculations again for the record.

I don’t know why either I didn’t have a lot of rise in the rim, but there must be something to really pressing on the dough and skin when opening and maybe also the right hydration. I have to try the same dough next week without really pressing on the dough ball and skin to see what happens. I will imagine there would be more oven spring if those methods aren’t used.

I did change to Kosher salt, because that is normally what I have at market.

I tried a couple of experiments on not really pressing on the dough balls while opening into skins and the same dough balls do get more oven spring if the dough balls really aren’t pressed on a lot.

For the dough formulation I am using right now the dough balls are the easiest I ever had to open into skins and the dough balls feel so soft when taking them out of the plastic bags. The rim crust is also tender after the bake, even if there isn’t a lot of oven spring on the dough balls when I really press out the skins. The bottom crust just has the right amount of crisp for me.

Steve brought me some Escalon Bonta to try on the boardwalk style pizza that he purchased at Salino’s in Reading http://www.salinosimporting.com/ I am not sure what kind of Escalon Bonta it was, http://www.escalon.net/products/bonta-pizza-sauce.aspxbut it tasted about the same as the Gangi I am using now . I might be purchasing the Escalon Bonta since I found out it tastes almost exactly the same as the Gangi and because I wouldn’t have to travel as far to purchase it. Steve also goes to Salino’s fairly often and he said he would pick me up cases of the Escalon Bonta if I wanted any cases.

I had a couple that came to my stand yesterday and they said they had tasted many different pizzas from pizzerias in our area since moving from Philly. They said my pizzas were the best they had tasted and purchased 4 whole pizzas yesterday. They also said they would be back regularly to purchase the pizzas.

The “pasta lady” at market really likes the “boardwalk style” of pizzas and has told many people about then. The pasta lady is a fan of Grotto’s pizza and has traveled to Italy different times to eat many kinds of pizza. She also gave me two plastic menu holders yesterday and told me to make some signs about my boardwalk style of pizza and the Detroit style of pizza. She said she would put them at her pasta stand next week.

A stand holder next to me wanted to purchase a whole pizza last evening after I had my oven shut off for over a half hour. I told him my oven was already shut off, but he told me if the pizza took longer to baked it was okay with him. I was surprised that there was still some oven spring in the rim of that pizza, even though the bake took much longer. He said the pizza was good. It can be seen that the middle of the crust wanted to bubble a little in the bake because the dough ball was opened right out of the pizza fridge. The dough ball did open very easily when cold though.

A stand holder next to me wanted to purchase a whole pizza last evening after I had my oven shut off for over a half hour. I told him my oven was already shut off, but he told me if the pizza took longer to baked it was okay with him. I was surprised that there was still some oven spring in the rim of that pizza, even though the bake took much longer. He said the pizza was good. It can be seen that the middle of the crust wanted to bubble a little in the bake because the dough ball was opened right out of the pizza fridge. The dough ball did open very easily when cold though.

Those are fun stories to read about with the various people there who are digging your pizza's

Bob,

I am glad you enjoyed the stories. If you want to hear a really good one, I have had a man and his wife as customers that have been usually purchasing a whole pizza in the evening almost every week for a long while the whole way back to my preferment Lehmann dough pizzas. That man can’t tell the differences in any of those iterations I have gone though since then. The only thing him and his wife want is a light rim crust and a bottom that is lightly browned.

I am glad you enjoyed the stories. If you want to hear a really good one, I have had a man and his wife as customers that have been usually purchasing a whole pizza in the evening almost every week for a long while the whole way back to my preferment Lehmann dough pizzas. That man can’t tell the differences in any of those iterations I have gone though since then. The only thing him and his wife want is a light rim crust and a bottom that is lightly browned.

Norma

That's a good one. Sounds like they are swell customers.I believe more people are like that than we probably know(or don't want to know! )

That's a good one. Sounds like they are swell customers.I believe more people are like that than we probably know(or don't want to know! )

Bob,

Yes, that lady and man are nice customers. I also believe more people are like that than we probably ever will know. I can see why chain pizzas are so popular, or even dull tasting crusts from regular pizzerias. Sometimes I wonder just how many people can taste a good pizza from a bad one.

Norma, your pizzas are the most amazing pizzas I have seen. Can you tell me if you do an autolyse? I've read good and bad on autolyse on this site so the jury is still out on this for me at this point. I figure whatever you're doing is the right way. I've read the post on this new dough formulation you are using (flour 100%, water 59%, IDY .55%, Morton salt 2%, oil 3% and sugar 1%, right?) but can you tell me how you process the dough from mixing to room or fridge ferment (and how long) to how long you let the dough sit out at room temp before forming, etc. Thank you, Cindy