Re: [atlas_craftsman] Re: Manual of lathe operation

Copyright for this upload is nothing to worry about. If the item is copyrighted, it falls under the fair use exception to the general rule of no copying

Message 1 of 18
, Nov 1, 2003

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Copyright for this upload is nothing to worry about. If the item is
copyrighted, it falls under the "fair use" exception to the general rule of
no "copying" unless owner authorized. If the item is not copyrighted or the
owner's copyright has otherwise expired, then the item is in the public
domain.

It is not the intent of the US copyright laws to inhibit the free flow and
exchange of information. That benefit tot he public is paramount as to all
copyrights.

thewwl@optonline.net wrote: Copyright for this upload is nothing to worry about. If the item is copyrighted, it falls under the fair use exception to the

Message 2 of 18
, Nov 1, 2003

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thewwl@... wrote: "Copyright for this upload is nothing to worry
about. If the item is
copyrighted, it falls under the "fair use" exception to the general rule of
no "copying" unless owner authorized. If the item is not copyrighted or the
owner's copyright has otherwise expired, then the item is in the public
domain."

Good... My intention is to only post PDF files of old, out of print manuals,
and this is meant as a service to fellow list members. I'll start the "lathe
manuals page" as soon as I get material... Moderator of list OK with all
that?

> Jacques,
> I have bought a manual '10-inch lathe operation and
> machinists tables'on a CD I would be willing to upload this to your
> site' mind you its 620 meg, I could take some 'stuff' out of it.
>
> As for copyright ? May be someone could throw some light on that ?
> Has it run out ?
>

Marc Sayer

Fair use applies only to personal use, not to copying for distribution, which is what is being discussed here. The fair use exception will not protect whoever

Message 4 of 18
, Nov 1, 2003

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Fair use applies only to personal use, not to copying for distribution,
which is what is being discussed here. The fair use exception will not
protect whoever puts copyrighted materials on the web for distribution.
That's why Napster was forced to stop, and why they are now suing those
who make copyrighted music available on similar sites. However, I doubt
any copyright holders would do anything about the infringement in the
case of old lathe manuals because there is no financial incentive to do
so, at least not yet.

Jacques Le Clainche wrote:

> thewwl@... wrote: "Copyright for this upload is nothing to worry
> about. If the item is
> copyrighted, it falls under the "fair use" exception to the general rule of
> no "copying" unless owner authorized. If the item is not copyrighted or the
> owner's copyright has otherwise expired, then the item is in the public
> domain."
>
> Good... My intention is to only post PDF files of old, out of print manuals,
> and this is meant as a service to fellow list members. I'll start the "lathe
> manuals page" as soon as I get material... Moderator of list OK with all
> that?
>
> Jacques Le Clainche in San Diego
> http://www.leclainche.com/
>
>
>
> TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THE LIST:
> You do this yourself by sending a message to:
> atlas_craftsman-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Atlas-Craftsman Projects list is at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman_projects/
>
> To see or edit your personal settings, view the photos, files or links http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman/
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Sounds plausible. However since we are deling with legal stuff, I think we need to know who you are and what your authority is before Jacques invests effort

Message 6 of 18
, Nov 1, 2003

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Sounds plausible. However since we are deling with legal stuff, I think we need to know who you are and what your authority is before Jacques invests effort in the project.

No offence meant and not belittling you knowledge, just falling into my accountant's habit of wearing both belt and suspenders :-)

Sam

thewwl <thewwl@...> wrote:
Copyright for this upload is nothing to worry about. If the item is
copyrighted, it falls under the "fair use" exception to the general rule of
no "copying" unless owner authorized. If the item is not copyrighted or the
owner's copyright has otherwise expired, then the item is in the public
domain.

It is not the intent of the US copyright laws to inhibit the free flow and
exchange of information. That benefit tot he public is paramount as to all
copyrights.

You miss the point of fair use. Copying and distribution for educational purposes has always been a legitimate and judicially recognized application of the

Message 7 of 18
, Nov 1, 2003

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You miss the point of fair use. Copying and distribution for "educational
purposes" has always been a legitimate and judicially recognized application
of the fair use doctrine.

Yet again, the purpose of copyright is NOT to interfere with the free flow
of ideas and communication amongst members of the public. Frankly, that is
the net effect of this discussion.

While you correctly point out an absence of financial incentive for an
unknown copyright owner to enforce its rights in this case, kindly recognize
the negative impact such adverse publicity could generate. Do you recall
several years ago when Disney took away cartoon images from a Florida
nursery school, complete with crying children? That lawyer lost her job and
Disney went through great lengths to make it up to that school and the
children. Bottom line is that any reasonable enforcement effort has to be
tempered with common sense.

I doubt anyone here has anything to worry about in terms of copyright
infringement from uploading information for educational use.

> Fair use applies only to personal use, not to copying for distribution,
> which is what is being discussed here. The fair use exception will not
> protect whoever puts copyrighted materials on the web for distribution.
> That's why Napster was forced to stop, and why they are now suing those
> who make copyrighted music available on similar sites. However, I doubt
> any copyright holders would do anything about the infringement in the
> case of old lathe manuals because there is no financial incentive to do
> so, at least not yet.
>
> Jacques Le Clainche wrote:
>
> > thewwl@... wrote: "Copyright for this upload is nothing to
worry
> > about. If the item is
> > copyrighted, it falls under the "fair use" exception to the general
rule of
> > no "copying" unless owner authorized. If the item is not copyrighted or
the
> > owner's copyright has otherwise expired, then the item is in the public
> > domain."
> >
> > Good... My intention is to only post PDF files of old, out of print
manuals,
> > and this is meant as a service to fellow list members. I'll start the
"lathe
> > manuals page" as soon as I get material... Moderator of list OK with all
> > that?
> >
> > Jacques Le Clainche in San Diego
> > http://www.leclainche.com/
> >
> >
> >
> > TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THE LIST:
> > You do this yourself by sending a message to:
> > atlas_craftsman-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Atlas-Craftsman Projects list is athttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman_projects/
> >
> > To see or edit your personal settings, view the photos, files or linkshttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman/
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Marc Sayer
> Journalist, Photographer, Dog Trainer (APDT member #062956)
>
> Passions -
> Great Danes, auto racing and fast cars, my wife
>
> Dogs -
> Gracie, Tank, Delilah, PJ, & the rescue dogs
>
> Cars -
> 82 280ZX Turbo, 83 Volvo 245, 93 Ford E150 Tow/dog van
> 71 510 Trans Am vintage racer, homebuilt Formula V
>
> My Homepage - http://gracieland.org
>
> Deaf Dane Rescue Homepge - http://gracieland.org/DaneRescue/
>
> Any Dane at the races is a Great Dane!
>
>
> TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THE LIST:
> You do this yourself by sending a message to:
> atlas_craftsman-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Atlas-Craftsman Projects list is athttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman_projects/
>
> To see or edit your personal settings, view the photos, files or linkshttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman/
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

x xx

Sounds plausible too. However, I refer to my previous post on this topic. Sam thewwl wrote: You miss the point of fair use. Copying and

Message 8 of 18
, Nov 1, 2003

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Sounds plausible too. However, I refer to my previous post on this topic.
Sam

thewwl <thewwl@...> wrote:
You miss the point of fair use. Copying and distribution for "educational
purposes" has always been a legitimate and judicially recognized application
of the fair use doctrine.

Yet again, the purpose of copyright is NOT to interfere with the free flow
of ideas and communication amongst members of the public. Frankly, that is
the net effect of this discussion.

While you correctly point out an absence of financial incentive for an
unknown copyright owner to enforce its rights in this case, kindly recognize
the negative impact such adverse publicity could generate. Do you recall
several years ago when Disney took away cartoon images from a Florida
nursery school, complete with crying children? That lawyer lost her job and
Disney went through great lengths to make it up to that school and the
children. Bottom line is that any reasonable enforcement effort has to be
tempered with common sense.

I doubt anyone here has anything to worry about in terms of copyright
infringement from uploading information for educational use.

Gentlemen, The Atlas Manual of Lathe Operations and Machinists Tables is still available from Atlas. I would imagine that it is still under copyright since I

Message 9 of 18
, Nov 1, 2003

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Gentlemen,

The Atlas Manual of Lathe Operations and Machinists Tables is still
available from Atlas.

I would imagine that it is still under copyright since I undertand copyright
protection was recently extended to 99 years for currently protected items.

I KNOW that the Atlas Manual was updated and reprinted by Atlas in the
1970s, so I would imagine it is still protected by copyright.

You would be doing them a dis-service in making a product that they still
sell for profit available for free in the intenet and I would imagine they
might take action against you, and it would also be rather destructive of
the support they still provide for the lathes to undercut them in that
manner.

Buckshot wrote: The Atlas Manual of Lathe Operations and Machinists Tables is still available from Atlas. I would imagine that it is still under copyright

Message 11 of 18
, Nov 1, 2003

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Buckshot wrote: "The Atlas Manual of Lathe Operations and Machinists Tables
is still
available from Atlas.

I would imagine that it is still under copyright since I understand
copyright
protection was recently extended to 99 years for currently protected items.

I KNOW that the Atlas Manual was updated and reprinted by Atlas in the
1970s, so I would imagine it is still protected by copyright.

You would be doing them a dis-service in making a product that they still
sell for profit available for free in the internet and I would imagine they
might take action against you, and it would also be rather destructive of
the support they still provide for the lathes to undercut them in that
manner."

Point taken. Just was an idea - the idea being to help fellow listers by
posting out-of-print, unavailable manuals. As I might not know what is
available (or not), and as there might be commercial interests I am not
aware of, I'll just forget about the whole thing. Sorry I brought it up.

JLC

Bob May

Two things, don t even try to use JPG compression format for doing pages from a manual unless they are full of pictures which are in color. Images of black

Message 12 of 18
, Nov 1, 2003

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Two things, don't even try to use JPG compression format for doing pages
from a manual unless they are full of pictures which are in color. Images
of black and white line drawings and text are best compressed with the GIF
format in black and white (the manuals were cheaply produced and are
generally of newsprint quality more than anything else) which will compress
the file size a lot all by itself - you get a 24:1 compression from full
color to B&W alone! In addition, GIF is a lossless format so you won't lose
any image quality while JPG is a lossy format that will make text impossible
to read at decently high compression ratios.
FWIW, there is a guy on the web doing some old car manuals and he's done
everything in JPG and the pages can be quite difficult to read as the text
is getting very fuzzy from the compression turning black edges gray and
spreading out the edges in unusual ways. What is worse is that the files
aren't that compressed anyway.
Bob Mayhttp://nav.to/bobmaybobmay@...
NEW! http://bobmay.astronomy.net

jerdal

... of ... the ... I do not believe this is correct. Not that anyone is likely to sue, but....why punch noses that haven t asked for it? I flat do not

Message 13 of 18
, Nov 1, 2003

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> Copyright for this upload is nothing to worry about. If the item is
> copyrighted, it falls under the "fair use" exception to the general rule

of

> no "copying" unless owner authorized. If the item is not copyrighted or

the

> owner's copyright has otherwise expired, then the item is in the public
> domain.

I do not believe this is correct. Not that anyone is likely to sue,
but....why punch noses that haven't asked for it?

I flat do not understand some things. I see people trying to find cheap
substitutes for $10 per gallon way oil, cheap or free copies of manuals
available from manufacturers for $5 to $20, etc, etc.

I am probably a cheaper skinflint ba##### than most of you, but I don't do
THAT stuff. Some of it is false economy, and the rest either is marginal on
legal issues or doesn't make sense.

Jerrold

Jon Elson

... The fine points of copyright law would be off topic, but making the entire manual for one of the Atlas or Craftsman lathes available on-line should be

Message 14 of 18
, Nov 1, 2003

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Jacques Le Clainche wrote:

>Earl,
>
>I would not post anything still in print. The idea is to have a
>website/resource page, for list members, with posted material which is no
>longer available in print.
>
>I was told this discussion is off topic- my apologies to all if it is. I
>sincerely thought it was a relevant topic on this list.
>
>

The fine points of copyright law would be off topic, but making the entire
manual for one of the Atlas or Craftsman lathes available on-line should
be on-topic enough. We don't want to get in trouble with any of the
manufacturers, so we want to be sure that we do this correctly.
Somebody certainly has to talk to Clausing about this.

>
>
> Jacques Le Clainche wrote:
>
> >Earl,
> >
> >I would not post anything still in print. The idea is to have a
> >website/resource page, for list members, with posted material which is no
> >longer available in print.
> >
> >I was told this discussion is off topic- my apologies to all if it is. I
> >sincerely thought it was a relevant topic on this list.
> >
> >
> The fine points of copyright law would be off topic, but making the entire
> manual for one of the Atlas or Craftsman lathes available on-line should
> be on-topic enough. We don't want to get in trouble with any of the
> manufacturers, so we want to be sure that we do this correctly.
> Somebody certainly has to talk to Clausing about this.
>
> Jon
>
>
> TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THE LIST:
> You do this yourself by sending a message to:
> atlas_craftsman-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Atlas-Craftsman Projects list is athttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman_projects/
>
> To see or edit your personal settings, view the photos, files or linkshttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman/
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

LouD31M066@aol.com

Right on Louis

Message 16 of 18
, Nov 2, 2003

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Right on
Louis

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