why would one aim at the attainment of "non-dual" jhanas in the commentaries and sub commentaries like Vm?

Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php

non-dual in the sense that you lose awareness and capacity for discernment.

Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php

convivium wrote:non-dual in the sense that you lose awareness and capacity for discernment.

Back up a little here. Focus, concentrated awareness, is not the same as loss of awareness, even if it's strong enough that one stops being aware of various things other than what one is focusing on. "Discernment" is not necessarily used to mean anything that requires the focus of your attention to move around, or for you to make mental comments about what you're experiencing. "Non-dual" usually seems to mean something else too. If you want to talk about specifics of what the Visuddhimagga says about jhānas, it might be good to get a copy to refer to.

Some people say they find highly focused states good for providing a clear, stable state of mind with which to do insight meditation afterward. Some people just have a lot of confidence that Buddhagosa and other commentators knew what they were talking about.

Focus, concentrated awareness, is not the same as loss of awareness, even if it's strong enough that one stops being aware of various things other than what one is focusing on.

you lose awareness of the body...

"Discernment" is not necessarily used to mean anything that requires the focus of your attention to move around, or for you to make mental comments about what you're experiencing.

how can one discern something when one is completely absorbed in an object?

"Non-dual" usually seems to mean something else too.

?

If you want to talk about specifics of what the Visuddhimagga says about jhānas, it might be good to get a copy to refer to.

i have a copy so can reference anything you mention

Some people say they find highly focused states good for providing a clear, stable state of mind with which to do insight meditation afterward.

why not just the jhanas in the suttas then?

Some people just have a lot of confidence that Buddhagosa and other commentators knew what they were talking about.

why?

Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php

Even though discernment may not be possible while in such a strong jhana, the skills and qualities gained in it's practice are still certainly beneficial. You're just forced to focus on vipassana while not in absorption.

Kenshou wrote:Even though discernment may not be possible while in such a strong jhana, the skills and qualities gained in it's practice are still certainly beneficial. You're just forced to focus on vipassana while not in absorption.

It's just another way to do things.

As a Sutta jhana man myself, I can actually agree with you that the Vism. jhana may well be an alternative way of doing things. I would not say, "You're just forced to focus on vipassana while not in absorption". Why are you forced to do so. My own belief is that the Vism. jhana is the sort of jhana as practiced by "outsiders", where the attaining of wisdom is not "built into" the jhana. It may also be possible that these "concentrations" were taught by the Buddha where he felt it appropriate. I believe the jhana as usually taught by the Buddha and portrayed in the suttas incorporates the mindfulness and body awareness, required for knowledge to arise.

jcsuperstar wrote:because there is in that state a suppression of hindrances, and a rest from the troubles caused by them, also strong concentration helps with mindfulness which in turn can lead to insight

All things are anicca, dukkha, anatta. Thus does one really need to enter special consciousness states to see anicca, dukkha and anatta there? These characteristics are present in all states, kusala or akusala.

Anatta and Dukkha can be seen really well in a restless state, perhaps much better than in peaceful and blissing out state.

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

insight takes some samadhi and samadhi takes some insight. insight is nana or nibbana and those require a lot of samadhi. however we have to work with whatever concentration we already have.

Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php