Still pic doesn't show whether the ball is heading down, bouncing up, or at the ground level.
Look at the VIDEO of those serves, and by looking at the arc of the ball, and the bounce coming off, you might MIGHT change your mind.
One still pic doesn't mean a thing, unless you can see the ball is squashed down from the impact.

Oh, Suresh...:???:
I DID NOT start the DOH club at Wises!
Bob did, along with Doc, Edwin, and TimBodkin.
Yes, I was wiping the clothing racks, sweeping the sidewalks, and cleaning the counters there.
I don't need to start any DOH club, and in fact, was one of the LATER guys to actually have a pic posted on the board. I don't care about documented "accomplishments" at all. I don't have pics of my 4A surfing, motocross, windsurfing, kitesurfing, snowboarding anywhere, because when I get given pics, I just leave them at my last home.
Most of the guys in SF know I built a 9'7" x 19 full gun in 1967, used it every big day for 2 years, before I built my second full gun, a 9'11" x 21"x 4" thick full gun. A lot of the big wave riders have come by and hung around my shaping garage those years, including the guys from the rival shop, OBSD, and including Bill Hickey.

Still pic doesn't show whether the ball is heading down, bouncing up, or at the ground level.
Look at the VIDEO of those serves, and by looking at the arc of the ball, and the bounce coming off, you might MIGHT change your mind.
One still pic doesn't mean a thing, unless you can see the ball is squashed down from the impact.

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Correct, that a pic isn't enough--but I didn't just send you a pic. I sent you a pic and information in the form of words.

I analyzed the video and could find no evidence that the ball was long. I determined the frame of the video that represented the bounce phase, and sent it with my post. Alves testimony suggests that it was good.

Merely "watching" a youtube video is not sufficient to determine whether the ball was out (and if you're not certain, then the ball is good, right?), especially when it appears to be a rather close shot. Similarly, a youtube video is not enough to say the ball was good either, on it's own, but since we have an eye witness, the burden of proof is on the person calling the ball out.

Actually, maybe we should think this thru.....
If indeed, the serve was good, the bounce would be higher.
If the serve was long, wouldn't the bounce at the backwall be....lower?
Am I giving credit where it isn't due?

Actually, maybe we should think this thru.....
If indeed, the serve was good, the bounce would be higher.
If the serve was long, wouldn't the bounce at the backwall be....lower?
Am I giving credit where it isn't due?

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Nah, you're just a stubborn old man. Can't blame you for that!

Determining the speed of your serve based on where it hits the backstop is pointless--too many variables. Just buy a freaking radar gun so you can know your "number."

The only time knowing your serve speed matters is if you're actively trying to increase your serve speed. That's it. In a match, it doesn't mean anything. From an improvement perspective: you'd be better off paying someone to sit on the sidelines and log the match stats on a nifty phone app, or dropping two bills on a backstop mounting camera and filming your matches.

Not sure a radar gun really accurately depicts a change of speed of say....,7 mph. Too many variables working there.
Actually, I'm not sure any artifical measurement, taken by an amateur, can really tell us the true service speed. OTOH, the true speed might not be important.
The effectiveness might be key.

That long or short, high or low bounce thing...
It's a point of diminishing returns.
At really slow serve speeds, a deeper hit ball might bounce higher at the backwall.
We still have to limit this within somewhat service limitations.
At around 100mph, I find my shortest serves bounce the highest, because the angle of flight is more downwards, creating a sharper rebound angle, resulting in a higher bounce at the backwall.
Deeper serves, and long serves, the ball tends to skid some, resulting in a LOWER bounce. Longer target, lower incidence of angle.

Not sure a radar gun really accurately depicts a change of speed of say....,7 mph. Too many variables working there.
Actually, I'm not sure any artifical measurement, taken by an amateur, can really tell us the true service speed. OTOH, the true speed might not be important.
The effectiveness might be key.

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A radar gun is the answer.

Get your dataset large enough, index your progress, and you have a meaningful serve speed metric.

My old mechanical drawing arch rival became a CHP officer in 1971. He is now in the office full time, and I ran into a mutual friend last week.
Friend is a motor officer (bikes) and maintains that while the radar is accurate, it's accuracy is only + or - 7%.
This, after the CHP has been using radars for 40 years.

My old mechanical drawing arch rival became a CHP officer in 1971. He is now in the office full time, and I ran into a mutual friend last week.
Friend is a motor officer (bikes) and maintains that while the radar is accurate, it's accuracy is only + or - 7%.
This, after the CHP has been using radars for 40 years.

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Sorry, man, but this data is easy to find and verify.

Radar guns used by law enforcement are typically +/- 1 MPH margin of error. Civilian radar guns are usually within that specification also, although probably not calibrated as often (or ever). That doesn't mean you're going to be within 1 MPH accuracy every time when measuring your serve speed, because operator skill, and other conditions might affect the reading.

This gun right here would be perfect for anyone looking to rate their serve speed. It even has a top rated comment by a long-time law enforcement officer who specifically tested it against his radar gun.

In all seriousness, if you're serving faster than 110 then you don't really need this radar gun. You're doing just fine.

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There are lots of other cues you can use to determine your relative improvement. But having a radar gun takes the guesswork out of it. And having a serve speed app doesn't cut it. You need real time feedback on your serve so you know how to make corrections. If you can have a good coach correct your mistakes, that would be the best but most expensive option.

I didn't want to get a radar gun that tops out at 110. That's just too low.

Radar guns used by law enforcement are typically +/- 1 MPH margin of error. Civilian radar guns are usually within that specification also, although probably not calibrated as often (or ever). That doesn't mean you're going to be within 1 MPH accuracy every time when measuring your serve speed, because operator skill, and other conditions might affect the reading.

This gun right here would be perfect for anyone looking to rate their serve speed. It even has a top rated comment by a long-time law enforcement officer who specifically tested it against his radar gun.

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It got this negative review on Amazon, I tend to believe the review because the other low cost radar device tennis players tend to buy (i have one, speed trac) also seems to under-estimate the serve speed by 10% or more too.

2.0 out of 5 stars Struggles with smaller objects April 21, 2008
By Ohio Baseball
I bought this to measure two things basically: tennis and baseball velocity. After testing the gun at first just on some cars, I was excited because it was extremely accurate. However, once I went to measure baseball pitching velocity and tennis, it was consistently 15-20 mph slow. The baseball pitcher was throwing in the mid to upper 80s, and has been verified by a JUGS gun, and he was topping out on this gun at 73. I wanted this to work so badly because it is a great price, but I believe I will have to return it because it has not been accurate for me on what I wanted it for.

It got this negative review on Amazon, I tend to believe the review because the other low cost radar device tennis players tend to buy (i have one, speed trac) also seems to under-estimate the serve speed by 10% or more too.

2.0 out of 5 stars Struggles with smaller objects April 21, 2008
By Ohio Baseball
I bought this to measure two things basically: tennis and baseball velocity. After testing the gun at first just on some cars, I was excited because it was extremely accurate. However, once I went to measure baseball pitching velocity and tennis, it was consistently 15-20 mph slow. The baseball pitcher was throwing in the mid to upper 80s, and has been verified by a JUGS gun, and he was topping out on this gun at 73. I wanted this to work so badly because it is a great price, but I believe I will have to return it because it has not been accurate for me on what I wanted it for.

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Good point, Rufus! I don't have one because frankly, I don't really care what my serve speed is enough to buy one.

Good point, Rufus! I don't have one because frankly, I don't really care what my serve speed is enough to buy one.

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Nearly every time I play a new opponent (tournament, league, or just club play), they will almost without fail ask me if I've ever had my serve speed measured on the first changeover (I've never had it tested). Most guys guess my serve speed at around 120. I've had people say as fast as 130. I know its nowhere near 120, but I can tell these guys really want to go home and tell their buddies that they "faced a XXX MPH serve", so they toss out high numbers.

Serve speed is such a funny topic and something people seem so interested in.

At high levels, serve speed isn't very straightforward because players put a lot of spin on first and second serves, which slows down ball speed a lot but provides heavy kick and margin for error so the serve can be bent to various targets. Many players I know, including myself have clocked over 120, but this number means nothing because the serve is dead flat and doesn't go in enough for match play. My match first serves hover around 100 because of the spin. Which makes a pro's 120 mph first serve with spin all the more impressive.

At high levels, serve speed isn't very straightforward because players put a lot of spin on first and second serves, which slows down ball speed a lot but provides heavy kick and margin for error so the serve can be bent to various targets. Many players I know, including myself have clocked over 120, but this number means nothing because the serve is dead flat and doesn't go in enough for match play. My match first serves hover around 100 because of the spin. Which makes a pro's 120 mph first serve with spin all the more impressive.

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Agree with this 100%. Most of the DI players I see playing here hit first serves around 100-110 tops but with a lot of spin. I saw a blue-chip recruit play who was like 5'7-5'8 who had a wicked kick serve that was only like 75-80mph tops...So speed doesn't necessarily mean effective

The only players I even see attempt to hit a flat serve are around 6'4. Not many can hit it with it any consistency

Well, for those of us who were hitting 55 mph pancakes not all that long ago, clocking speed is one semi-objective way to measure progress.

But yeah, realistically, being able to consistently place a slower, spinny serve out wide, and then send it up the T every so often to keep opponents from cheating, would be preferable to hitting a "fast" but eminently blockable serve with suspect placement.

I only made this thread about speed estimation of serve because I got excited about hitting a serve not totally weak for once. I understand that the spin, the location of serve and change up dynamics are as important or more important than speed.

I only made this thread about speed estimation of serve because I got excited about hitting a serve not totally weak for once. I understand that the spin, the location of serve and change up dynamics are as important or more important than speed.

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That too, but what I'm emphasizing is the energy the incoming ball has. A 100 mph topslice can have the same energy as a 125 mph flat serve, and that energy will be released after the bounce. So someone used to returning a 100 mph flat serve may get his racket on the 100 mph topslice, but his stroke will not be able to handle the heaviness of the ball, and he will spray his return. The bend in the air and kick after the bounce in which the ball retains more of its velocity post bounce will also wreck the returner's ability to return the serve. This is even if the ball is not placed well, and the returner knows what's coming.

I think we know a 100mph top/slice is more effective than a 100 flat serve, placed at the same spot.
Pros hit into the mid 120+ range, on flat serves, and up to 155.
Most of us hit flat serves at 100, and spin serves much slower. Can we agree there?
But speed IS very important, as is placement, consistentcy, replication, depth, and timing.
Hard to judge and catagorize most of those criteria, except speed of serve.

Many players I know, including myself have clocked over 120, but this number means nothing because the serve is dead flat and doesn't go in enough for match play.

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Agree 100%. Last weekend I was spectating at a tournament and finally had my serve checked by radar. Went 186kph (115mph) but that was using a light kid's racquet and green dot low compression ball. So with my normal racquet and adult ball I could get it up around 200kph. Back in my 20s when I was fairly fit that was more like 210kmh and they'd go in enough but these days in my 40s maybe one in every 5 would go in and being flat a decent pro could hammer it back return after return.

P.S. There was a current top 200 player at the tournament with a 220-230kmh serve that when flat and placed in the corners was an ace nearly every time. But he could throttle back to "just" 190-200 with plenty of work on the ball and those were almost unplayable.

I only made this thread about speed estimation of serve because I got excited about hitting a serve not totally weak for once. I understand that the spin, the location of serve and change up dynamics are as important or more important than speed.

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They're not more important than speed. In fact none of those other factors will mean diddle without some speed. Speed is a huge part of the equation. Don't be fooled into thinking you don't need pace.

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Aren't these recreational tennis stats (4.0-4.5ish). Only if you're a lefty can you get away with this and still manage to be an ATP pro on tour?
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It's informative to search for some stats and see what they are.

I recorded a few from a Federer vs Wawrinka match. Probably not typical because Federer had a back injury issue.

Chas Tennis: you can look at Wimby stats and see Federer is around 117 mph in his prime for 1st serve average. I think around 95 mph avg for 2nd serves. When he was winning 5 in row, this was pretty much automatic. Some of the bigger servers like Raonic and Jersey avg in the 120-125 range.

I played a D III player who was clocked at school and his 1st serve was a heavy spin serve around 93 mph. This kid actually played a season of 4.0 usta with us because his dad was on the team. To give a comparison, his mid 90s heavy spin serve was near the top of the league in pace and spin. Basically, of all the teams we saw, I don't think anyone could serve faster on average or had heavier spin. Someone might get the odd 110 mph flat serve but their average serve speed was either significantly lower than the kids or there percentage was in the 15-20% range.

Tennisspeed has a blog. He did quite a few measurements a few years ago and the average numbers were less than I had expected. So far that's one of the best assemblies of creditable measurements that I've seem. I believe that the DIII player you describe probably has a heavier spin serve.

You can take a video using a smartphone from the side and get a pretty good measurement of the pace if the phone can be verified as at 30 fps. The average tennis racket is about 27" in length. Roughly, if the ball travels 2 tennis racket lengths, 54", between frames at 30 fps, that's 92 MPH. (100 MPH is 58.7" between frames).