I would've rather we gotten something about who he was than nothing at all.

While I agree something would have been nice, I do believe it would have messed with the pacing of the scene, and with snoke's attitude towards Rey being that she's a threat it's reasonable to assume he'd want her dead, nit monologuing about his several hundred year lifespan

While I agree something would have been nice, I do believe it would have messed with the pacing of the scene, and with snoke's attitude towards Rey being that she's a threat it's reasonable to assume he'd want her dead, nit monologuing about his several hundred year lifespan

I'm not talking about a specific scene; I'm talking about the movie as a whole. I think that to fix the problems with TLJ you'd probably have to rewrite the whole movie, not just a few scenes.

Ace:

Actually that could be interesting drama upon itself, With what we got in the last Jedi there's the groundwork for a really good subtle family drama if someone decided to explore her parents

That's exactly the point I was making in my post. You could still have this, but the fact that Kylo's dismissal of them makes it feel final makes me doubt it.

I'm not talking about a specific scene; I'm talking about the movie as a whole. I think that to fix the problems with TLJ you'd probably have to rewrite the whole movie, not just a few scenes.

I'd have to disagree, only a few parts of the movie felt problematic to me, canto bight, holdo(though introducing the idea of a traitor would have made her secrecy make a lot more sense), and rose saving finn

fangface1:

That's exactly the point I was making in my post.

Then I apologise for my misunderstanding

fangface1:

but the fact that Kylo's dismissal of them makes it feel final makes me doubt it.

In such a case at Least we got an answer, was it very satisfying? No, but not all answers are

The thing about there being a traitor is that it doesn’t matter. Regardless if there is a spy or not, the plan still happens the same way. The only difference is that the traitor informs the First Order about the transports after they’ve been boarded rather than before. Holdo is still a god awful character regardless.

@EveryoneThe other thing is that both the First Order and the Rebellion was absolutely incompetent. The whole thing about the cannons not being able to support Kylo is absolute malarkey. He just slaughtered High Command and destroyed all of their X-Wings. They can do absolutely nothing to stop the First Order attack. Furthermore, if the First Order is really so impressive, do they not have any other ships they can call in to sandwhich the Resistance? I find that unlikely. And don’t even get me started on the fuel.

Also, Leia blames Poe for making the initial attack on the dreadnought, but SHE is the one in charge. If she really wanted to, she could call the bombers and fighters off. But she didn’t. She can’t just blame Poe for something that she would need to authorize in the first place.

And nobody has character development in this movie at all, when it boils down to it. Kylo started a whiny teenager, and he turned out a whiny teenager. Leia is still self-righteous, Hux is still an idiot (though he is my favourite character,) and Rey has learned nothing except that Kylo is just as whiny as he was before. This movie changes nothing except that there isn’t going to be a Snoke in the next one, and the Resistance can now all fit on the Millenium Falcon.

Furthermore, if the First Order is really so impressive, do they not have any other ships they can call in to sandwhich the Resistance?

That's sort of the point of the First Order. Snoke created an army of man-children who wanted the good-ole-days of the Empire back with not much experience leadership wise that wins by employing the Separatist tactic of just overwhelm them. Sure, there's the lethality of the new era of Stormtroopers and pilots that can actually hit their targets and officers like Phasma and Cardinal were effective in training them, but the top brass doesn't seem all that smart, just riding the coat tails of their parents into positions of power, like in the case of Hux. Not having some of their ships jump in front of the dwindling Resistance forces and blow them up with ease shows that their inexperience created a bloated sense of ego and a sureness of victory that they became overconfident that led to unwittingly let the Resistance escape.

And even then they still took out like 95% of the Resistance forces that left D'Qar to travel to Crait. Three cruisers worth got dwindled to around 30 people. While some important people escaped, they essentially momentarily DID crush the Resistance.

But why? The spy just tells the First Order the plan while they’re on the ship. Delaying telling them the plan doesn’t stop them from acting on it.

@prentice1215 I’ll give you that Snoke built them to be idiots, but Snoke himself has at least some battle sense, as would Phasma (her movie irrelevance aside.) Why would those two allow the Resistance even a sliver of hope of escaping?

And regardless of all of this, the fuel thing is still just bad writing, as is the speed of the Star Destroyers relative to the Mon Calamari star cruiser as a plot device. Those two just took me right out of the film.

The plan is that the first order doesn't know the resistance got away, a spy would ruin it,

But would the spy not ruin it anyway once they were onboard the escape ship? They wouldn’t know whom it was, so they would have to take everybody on the escape ships.

Ace:

I'd argue that they're not, the first order is just to arrogant to call in reinforcements

But would they not at the very least send the TIE fighters they had on board? There are no X-Wings to defend the command cruiser, so there’s no reason not to press the attack. I’m willing to believe that they’re keeping Kylo safe because he’s supposedly important, but Joe and Steve from the Stormtrooper corps could still try and finish them off. The First Order has never cared about its personnel, so why start now?

Ace:

Why?

Because if the best excuse you can come up with for the Resistance losing is that they’re out of freaking fuel, then that’s just an awful plot device. ESPECIALLY since you have the Millenium Falcon running around with Rey. You also have multiple escape pods having been jettisoned earlier, because Rose is guarding them. Why not use that fuel to continue to power the ship beyond initial fuel reserves? Additionally, why isn’t the First Order running out of fuel? Shouldn’t they have similar fuel constraints? Fin and Rose were even able to take a ship out of the cruiser and fly to Canto Bight and back. To have all of this happen and then say “oh no, we’re out of fuel,” just doesn’t make sense to me.

Their ships are much bigger than the one resistance ship, with the supremacy being a mobile capital it's not a stretch to assume it can refuel the star destroyers

And the Resistance didn’t have time to worry about fuel, they had to get off of D’Qar FAST.

Maarlfox:

Because if the best excuse you can come up with for the Resistance losing is that they’re out of freaking fuel, then that’s just an awful plot device. ESPECIALLY since you have the Millenium Falcon running around with Rey.

I mean, this is a war. Anything can decide who the victor is. If one side runs out of ammo, if a leader overlooks a small location, if someone spills coffee over a battleplan. Compared to those, fuel doesn’t seem that awful a reason.

While this is true, it is also a narrative. One of the main reasons Nazi Germany lost WW2 is due to a fuel shortage, but that doesn’t show up in hardly any war story because it’s not as compelling as the idea that the Allies took them down through force (which is also true.)

Because the people you’re fighting are possibly literally the only people left in the galaxy that can directly oppose you, so the trade off is more than worth it. Not to mention that the Resistance is unarmed anyway, so the First Order isn’t risking a thing.

Ace:

It's not a perfect fix, but it's much better than her original motives for keeping it a secret

I’d argue it’s not a fix at all. If the difference is just them getting blasted out of the sky after the spy was in the transport instead of before, that makes no difference at all. Holdo’s actions caused a mutiny, and endangered the plan far more than her just telling the officers the plan would have.

Ace:

No, it's the reason they're cornered, they're losing Because they're out numbered, out gunned, and outclassed on a military level

Yes, but the reasoning is rediculous.

Ace:

You also have multiple escape pods having been jettisoned earlier,

They do that

It’s ridiculous for exactly this reason. You’re telling me that the Resistance can justify sending Fin and Rose to CB, and has the fuel to support multiple escape pods, but can’t use that fuel to support their cruiser?

Ace:

Their ships are much bigger than the one resistance ship, with the supremacy being a mobile capital it's not a stretch to assume it can refuel the star destroyers as well

Sure, but if it took that much time for the Supremacy to fuel up and get there, why would the Resistance not take the opportunity to fuel the ships in the first place?

Also, if the Star Destroyers had more fuel, would it not still be better for one of them to jump to hyperspace to come up ahead of the Resistance, and then jump back? That doesn’t seem unreasonable in a world where Han Solo can hyperspace directly onto Starkiller Base.

Because the people you’re fighting are possibly literally the only people left in the galaxy that can directly oppose you,

But they're running out of fuel quickly and they can't escape there's no need to be incredibly urgent from the first order's point of view

Maarlfox:

I’d argue it’s not a fix at all

Yes, it is, it gives her motives, something she didn't have before, and there doesn't have to be an actual spy as just the threat of one could give secrecy, and a traitor wouldn't waste their own lives during a betrayal, any sane defector would wait until they're in a situation where they can survive first.

Maarlfox:

Yes, but the reasoning is rediculous.

No it's not, it's the exact opposite of ridiculous, it's mundane

Maarlfox:

You’re telling me that the Resistance can justify sending Fin and Rose to CB,

They didn't, Poe did.

Maarlfox:

but can’t use that fuel to support their cruiser

As I said earlier, they did do that

Maarlfox:

if it took that much time for the Supremacy to fuel up

I never said anything about the refueling time for the supremacy, it was most likely already ready before hand

Maarlfox:

Also, if the Star Destroyers had more fuel, would it not still be better for one of them to jump to hyperspace to come up ahead of the Resistance, and then jump back

But they're running out of fuel quickly and they can't escape there's no need to be incredibly urgent from the first order's point of view

I would hardly call 36 hours quickly. And any sane First Order officer would seize the opportunity to kill Leia Skywalker and her disciples when they have the chance.

Ace:

Yes, it is, it gives her motives, something she didn't have before, and there doesn't have to be an actual spy as just the threat of one could give secrecy, and a traitor wouldn't waste their own lives during a betrayal, any sane defector would wait until they're in a situation where they can survive first.

Sure, but it doesn’t change the fact that the traitor would still inform them of the plan regardless. Even if they don’t blast the transporters out of the sky, they still inform the First Order where they’re headed. Then the First Order shows up on Crait with presumably a large amount of walkers before the Resistance even has a chance to touch down.

Ace:

They didn't, Poe did

Fair enough, but Poe still apparently had the means and method of sneaking two crew members off of the cruiser without the First Order finding out about it with no issues, so why couldn’t he do that with more? Why stage a mutiny when you can just take all of your men off of the cruiser?

Ace:

As I said earlier, they did do that

I’ve found no evidence of that in the movie. I could be wrong though.

Ace:

I never said anything about the refueling time for the supremacy, it was most likely already ready before hand

This is also fair, but the Resistance would have had to have known there’d be reprocussions for taking out Starkiller Base.

Ace:

No it's not, it's the exact opposite of ridiculous, it's mundane

Maybe, but mundane is also not the feeling you’re aiming for in an action movie about an advanced civilization that has access to laser swords and warp travel. It’s still bad writing, because it feels almost like an afterthought.