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Randy Oliver noted over on BEEL that the EPA has not received one official complaint of corn seed coatings and bee die offs etc. One can see how from Bayer and the EPA's standpoint there is no problem.

I do think it is important to keep perspective on this issue. I know what pesticide poisoning does to bee hives, I have seen it many times in years past with foliar spraying. Neonics have lessened the need for foliar spraying. Since corn is the largest crop in the US and I would assume the majority of hives are within flying distance of a corn field it seems that the easily observed effects of pesticide poisoning should be quite apparent if direct contact kill was a problem. As far as any residue in the fields it would be nice to see some hard data on that as far as how common it might be and what the concentrations are as this report (as near as I can tell) is only dealing with a specific case. The real issue on neonics has always been the potential of sub lethal dosages and if that could be more of a stealth killer. The majority of the testing up to this point has failed to show a connection to the original ccd type symptoms but instead has suggested that viruses is probably a much more plausible culprit. That is not to say that neonics arent perhaps a contributing factor. In any case let's work off what we know and any documented losses that can be proven.
Here are my unscientific observations, we have bees on over 100 locations all within flying distance of corn fields. Figuring a 2 mile flight radius they would cover well over 1000 square miles and I haven't yet seen anything that concerns me. I think that is a pretty significant piece of evidence.

"People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

I don't like biased studies, and this study is biased. I don't like fear mongering and that is a lot of what I am reading in this thread. I also don't like pesticides in all their various flavors.

This study is biased because of who paid for it and the innuendo that is included in lieu of hard facts. The association of bees dead with small amounts of neonics in them does not prove that the neonics killed the bees. They are going to have to back up this observation with cold hard provable facts.

The statements made so far in this thread sound like someone is holding a smoking gun. This gun is not smoking folks. Read the article with a bit less bias and see what it is really getting down to.

The significant issue found in this study is the proliferation of dust from the seed during planting. There is a reasonable establishment of cause and effect that bees are dying during corn planting and that they are dying from neonic exposure. This means the seed companies are going to make a huge effort to coat the seed with a second layer of inert material to reduce the dust problem.

The buildup of neonics in soil was pretty much limited to 3 years. What they didn't say is what happens in a dry region where rainfall is less than 20 inches per year. It would be reasonable to guess they would persist longer under such conditions. There is also reason to suspect that the residue buildup will be incorporated into corn plants and into corn pollen since these chemicals have definite systemic activity. What is not established is whether or not the bees are getting a lethal dose from the pollen.

The Bayer studies that led to licensing of these chemicals was seriously flawed. It did not take into account interactions between bees and corn when the area of distribution is as large as it is in the real world.

My take on this is that it is one more sign of a serious problem with a relatively new pesticide. We need more studies.

I read the study and the most interesting new piece of information was the used talc exhausted out of the air planter. This appears to be the significant, new, potential exposure to honey bees. Although, at this point there is no evidence of how they are being exposed. It could be they would forage this material if it were found in concentrated areas. I haven't worked with these planters so I'm not sure how the exhausted material will accumulate. This will be something for me to find out this spring!

When reading the tables at first I was a little confused since I couldn't understand how foraging bees could bring in corn pollen during planting time. While reading the study I learned that the plots for the study were not planted until July. This is concerning since this is not "typical" planting time and does not represent what colonies in mid-western agricultural areas will face during a typical planting season.

Also, if dead bees were tested for clothiandin levels in July what is the source of the clothiandin? Pollen from surrounding corn fields? Dandelion, July is well past peak flowering. Exhausted planter talc? The authors noted it was not clear how bees would be exposed to high levels of clothiandin after the seed was planted.

As far as soil pesticide levels. I found it interesting that clothiandin levels were essentially the same in the unplanted soil as the production fields surrounding the test plots. This data is starting to develop a baseline. It would be interesting if the authors continued to collect this data to see what soil levels do.

Another interesting point made was that pollen had sub-acutely toxic levels of clothiandin. It was estimated it would several days of consuming the pollen to reach the LD50 level and metabolic activity would decrease residual levels. The impact of sub-acute levels of exposure needs to be studied. It would also have been nice to check clothiandin levels in capped brood to see how much is making it into the bees.

I was surprised no clothiandin was found in nectar. It has been found in guttation from corn seedlings. It is found in pollen. I don't know if it isn't in nectar or the levels are below detection.

Something to note, all levels of pesticides are reported in parts per billion. It wasn't that long ago that those levels were almost undetectable.

I was surprised there was no discussion about the detection of coumaphos. What was the potential source? Was it actually applied to the hives for mite control?

The study is a first step to answering some questions about how, or if, neonics impact honey bee colonies. I hope the authors continue to pursue this research and provide some hard answers to the questions we all have.

Here is a link more easily downloaded than the one provided by borderbeeman. http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0029268
As you may notice it allows you to cut, copy, and paste so you can more easily make a side by side comparison between the un-quoted material in the beginning post and the information published by those who authored the final paper.

I found it somewhat unusual that despite all the previous claims to the contrary NO traces of clothianidin and thiamethoxam were detected in any of the nectar tested, despite numerous previous claims that these chemicals readly translocate to nectar and corn seedling guttation droplets. But for the sake of honesty I admit that there is this little thing about corn not producing nectar.

I call you attention to table 4. http://www.plosone.org/article/slide...e.0029268.t004
One of the two hives situated at a TREATED corn field showed LOWER concentrations of clothianidin after planting than before clothianidin treated seeds were planted. Why? One of the 2 hives situated at an UNTREATED corn field showed HIGHER concentrations of clothianidin after planting untreated corn seeds than before untreated seeds were planted. Why?

Because no base line information was available for 2010 or earlier. I can only assume that table 4 means the clothianidin and thiamethoxam contamination of pollen occurred during the dry and dusty planting conditions encountered in 2010 and not during 2011. In a previous thread I already discussed the late and damp 2011 planting season in the American Mid-West. The good news is that this study dove tails perfectly with the brief suspension of clothianidin and thiamethoxam use in Europe following a similar corn planting accident.

Scrapfe---Never believe anything in politics until it has been officially denied.--Otto von Bismarck.

Or it could indicate contamination from a source farther away. Mary Anne Frazier, and others, have shown that bees forage a lot farther away from the hive than previously thought, covering a lot more acreage. Is it possible that the contamination came from another source, farther away?

All wax from hives treated with coumaphos contain fairly large amounts of it, since it dissolves in the wax. This includes "new" foundation, which is made from recycled wax. Probably a good way to breed resistant mites, along with low level toxicity to bees (and possible cause for absconding -- too much nasty stuff in the comb).

Bees metabolize neo-nics quite rapidly, and excrete them fairly quickly as well, so I'm not surprised at low levels in live bees. Usually they die very quickly at lethal levels, and non-lethal levels vanish over a few hours as the bees excrete them. The question is what does low levels of neo-nics do to bees? They are central nervous system poisons, after all -- what does something like this do to the developing brood? Change behaviors? Make them nice homes for phorid flies?

Lots of questions, not very many answers, and remember, neo-nics are not used in trace amounts. At a few mg per seed, the dosage on a field is in the dozens to hundreds of pounds range, and if they do persist in the soil, the amount starts to get really high.

Another question is what are we doing to the ecology of the field when we poison EVERY insect out there.

All of this should have been answered BEFORE neo-nics were approved for field use, whatever the crop. Neo-nics are a huge problem in Europe, and there is considerable pressure to have them banned completely.

Lots of questions, not very many answers, and remember, neo-nics are not used in trace amounts. At a few mg per seed, the dosage on a field is in the dozens to hundreds of pounds range, and if they do persist in the soil, the amount starts to get really high.

I think your math is off. There isn't even a hundred pounds of corn seed, probably 10-20 pounds at the most, planted per acre. The seed treatment would be much less. I can't remember off the top of my head but isn't the ai something like 0.5 mg per seed?

Common spacing of one sweet corn plant every 10 inches in rows roughly 36 inches apart yields about 17,000 corn plants per acre. Depending on the variety, this requires between 150 and 225 lbs. of seed per acre. Sweet corn planting density is lower than field corn density because it is commonly harvested by hand, which requires more space than with mechanized field corn harvesting equipment.

Field Corn

Depending on the hybrid or variety, field or grain corn planting rates vary from about 20,000 to 44,000 plants per acre. Grain corn dries on the stalk with the kernel forming a dent on one end when ripe, which is caused by shrinking starch. Higher planting rates require closer planted rows along with seeds planted closer together within the row. Higher planting rates are used for grain corn because the emphasis is on total yield rather than quality of each ear.

Just out of pure cussedness, I just weighed out two ounces of Hickory King field corn seed and counted them. Just at 100 kernels per ounce, which translated to 1200 seeds per pound. This particular batch was a bit on the small side, so probably very close to field corn.

The real point here is that 44,000 seeds per acre is 220,000 mg or 220 gr or half a pound of neo-nic per acre. Assuming that the real amount is significantly higher (for "better results", eh?) assume a pound per acre.

Takes a couple nanograms to kill a bee so this "dose" can kill 100,000,000 bees.

Avaaz.org sent a petition to the EPA last year with 10,000 signatures on it asking for clothianidin to be banned, I know, because I signed it and helped circulate it. So much for no complaints. Granted I sent that as a concerned citizen, not a beekeeper. Can the EPA and Bayer be sued by an Apiary?

Stuck in Texas. Learning Permaculture in drought, flood and strange weather. The bees are still alive.

I will be very interested to see the long term health of the hives I have surrounded by corn and beans (also treated for the most part I believe) in southern MN. I have also caught swarms in this area which does not have a lot of managed beehives to my knowledge.

I certainly believe that they toxicity is an issue and that these compounds will not outright kill colonies but rather there may be a reduction in the vitality of colonies over time and a general taxation on colony immune function. I will keep observing, keep records and speak with local farmer to try to learn more about the seed treatments they are getting with their seeds.

The long one is that most beekeepers lack standing (see note) to bring the case to court, plus the evidence is flimsy, and did I mention very subjective?

If the legal question was, "Can this product kill bees if it is used improperly?" then lawyers would be killing each other to get to be the first in line to sue Eddy Baugher for selling canoe paddles. And I could sue you for planting marigolds or mums in your vegetable garden.

Law firms don't like cases if they have to prove the facts. They prefer open and shut cases were there is little or no work or expense. In this respect lawyers are very much like honeybees robbing out a weak hive.

By suing the only business you are going to harm in the long run is going to be your friendly neighborhood farmer. He is the one using these legal products in a reckless or illegal manner and in the end the farmer is the one who you will have to drag into court and sue to prove your case. I wish to remind you that he is also the same farmer you very likely depend on to provide your bees with free nectar and pollen, if not an apiary sight or pollination fees for you. So go ahead, knock your self out, sue. Just don't come crying on my shoulder when every farmer whose door you knock on slams the door in your face when you mention the word apiary.

Last edited by Scrapfe; 01-09-2012 at 04:35 PM.

Scrapfe---Never believe anything in politics until it has been officially denied.--Otto von Bismarck.