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The other problem is technology, it's far easier for companies to cram a suspension/car full of nannies, and appear too have amazing handling/ or an amazing product, where even 10 years ago it required far more "engineering" and R&D.

A car does not "appear" to have amazing handling, it either has it or it does not. The means by which that handling is achieved is moot.

To set up a computerized suspension, etc takes a lot of resources and very deep pockets and is by no means a simple task.

Congrats, I think you have really made it to the big time driving a 2009 BMW 328i.

It doesn't matter what you think as we're not trying to impress you. You drive a new 5 Series and are better than us lowly 3 Series owners. 5% of the wealthiest people in the country know better. You do, I do.

It's the other 95% of America that views BMW owners as arrogant, snobby, successes. Those are the people to whom a BMW humbles. An Audi is inconsequential in their eyes, just like we like it. Mr. & Mrs. Camry see a BMW, they get red in the face, in a jealous rage.

Someone earlier made a good point, the fact BMW is not a "rebadged" car makes it not having the cheaper models to absorb the fuel economy requirements, 3ers being the base volume seller naturally have the burden of achieving as high an mpg as possible in order to meet the quota, while still trying to maintain some level of sporty characters.

The upcoming ATS for example, may not have to, because it has the Chevy Cruze/Sonic to take that mpg spread, so Caddy may have more luxury to tune the ATS like an E46.

Well there are marquees where you can have that debate, or it might depend on the market (Pontiac in China, etc)... however, to suggest that ANY of the premium marquees like Audi, Infiniti, Lexus, Mercedes are not luxury brand is patently ridiculous. They are luxe in ALL of the markets they sell in.

First off, never said Mercedes Benz wasn't a luxury car. Of course it is. But the Audi, Infiniti, Lexus, Cadillac, and Acura brands most certainly are not.

Mercedes Benz and BMW make their cars from the beginning to be $50,000 luxury cars. Those other brands design their cars from the beginning to be $25,000 Volkswagen's, Mitsubishi's, Toyota's, Cheverolet's, and Honda's.

A BMW 3 Series or a Mercedes C Class are just that- they are those cars. An Audi A3 is a Passat, an A5 is a Jetta, whatever. An Acura TSX is a Civic, a TL is an Accord, whatever.

Again, no one in America aspires to own an Audi. An Audi is something you get when the practical side of your brain overtakes the emotional side, saves you a few dollars, makes your friends and neighbors think you're not an arrogant BMW driving snob.

Again, no one in America aspires to own an Audi. An Audi is something you get when the practical side of your brain overtakes the emotional side, saves you a few dollars, makes your friends and neighbors think you're not an arrogant BMW driving snob.

First off, never said Mercedes Benz wasn't a luxury car. Of course it is. But the Audi, Infiniti, Lexus, Cadillac, and Acura brands most certainly are not.

Mercedes Benz and BMW make their cars from the beginning to be $50,000 luxury cars. Those other brands design their cars from the beginning to be $25,000 Volkswagen's, Mitsubishi's, Toyota's, Cheverolet's, and Honda's.

A BMW 3 Series or a Mercedes C Class are just that- they are those cars. An Audi A3 is a Passat, an A5 is a Jetta, whatever. An Acura TSX is a Civic, a TL is an Accord, whatever.

Again, no one in America aspires to own an Audi. An Audi is something you get when the practical side of your brain overtakes the emotional side, saves you a few dollars, makes your friends and neighbors think you're not an arrogant BMW driving snob.

BJ

Do you know that the Audi engineering division is totally sepersate from the VW's R&D department? The last gen S6 share an engine with the Lamborghini Gallardo and as someone mentioned earlier, the A3 shares the same navi system as the Lamborghini, does that make the Lamborghini just another VW?
I had 3 Audi before my current BMW and I can tell you that I get a lot more attention from my Audi 2012 A6 than I do now with my 535xi.

I aspire to own an Audi. I think many people on these forums do. I actually think Audi is more of a luxury brand than BMW. Typically, Audi surpasses BMW with comfort and interior design. While BMW has always been more about driving dynamics. However, based on this comparison between the 335i and S4, it looks as though those attributes have flip-flopped!

In fact, Audi's sales have been outpacing other luxury brands, particularly in the US. I do believe that Audi is gaining because it has all the comfort and luxury of MB and BMW, plus smashing good looks (subjective) and the lack of the pretentiousness of the BMW badge.

BJ, I rarely call anyone out on the boards, because for the most part I'm a tree-hugging non-confrontational dude who wants everybody to get along. And I respect that everyone is going to have their own opinion. But how can you say things like "nobody aspires to owning an Audi" and "Audi (and the other brands) aren't luxury cars"? Have you asked every single US resident and tallied their responses? You're welcome to your opinions and you may despise anything without an Roundel on it, but please refrain from speaking for the entire US/world population. Personally, I don't want you speaking for me, because I don't agree with a single thing you say. Speak for yourself, and we can all be happy.

Oh, and my opinion is that a 3 Series is not a luxury car either. A true luxury car is going to be something like a RR. The 3 may have some luxury qualities, but for the most part it is a sport sedan. (Or.. it should be.)

Exactly. Only someone who has not been to Europe would consider BMW a "luxo" brand. News flash ... BMW is like GM in Europe, they build everything. Just look at some of the Welt delivery photos people post, see those crappy looking little weird hatch backs and stuff in the background? Those are the equivelants of the Pontiac Aztek that BMW builds for the Euro market.

Audi ONLY builds upscale cars. The lowest end Audi is something like a 1.3T A3 that sells for something like 30,000 euros. By comparison you have always been able to get a stripped down 3 series in europe that has cloth seats, AM radio, etc. LOL.

Audi are considered much more luxury in Europe than BMW. Only someone delusional is under the impression that round the world people think of Audi as nothing but a fancied up VW.

Audi range in Europe starts with the A1 for about $18k incl taxes.

Audi and BMW are both Premium brands not luxury, and they are both considered about the same in terms of status.

Oh, and my opinion is that a 3 Series is not a luxury car either. A true luxury car is going to be something like a RR. The 3 may have some luxury qualities, but for the most part it is a sport sedan. (Or.. it should be.)

I'd say its like a hybrid not quite a lux, not quite a sports sedan . I can't get my vented seats or $3500k B&O speakers

It is funny to see such brand loyalty here. Particularly from BJ who probably craps BMW roundels. I have owned both BMW's and Audi's. Audi's are definitely nice vehicles. I happen to like them both as well as other makes and models. I have the ability to appreciate more than 1 brand. I couldn't imagine eating the same thing every day for the rest of my life any more than I could imagine driving the same make and model vehicle.

Audi and BMW are both Premium brands not luxury, and they are both considered about the same in terms of status.

That's the term I couldn't think of: Premium. Yes... All the brands being discussed are indeed that, Premium brands. You pay more for a higher level of refinement than your non-premium brands that do basically the same thing.

(And the Premium brands: BMW, Audi, MB, Lexus, Cadillac, etc. all have some blend of luxury, sport, practicality and other aspects. Some more than others.)

They are luxury cars, though more accurately they are "entry level luxury sporty cars."

BJ's view does have a good representation not only in the US but abroad. In fact I think BMW has made a point of this, by being a more exclusive luxury car maker with emphasis in driving dynamics, there is benefit to its consumer base.

But now we begin to see the downside. BMW could merge with Hyundai, allow them to share technologies, and mpg requirements, so the BMW brand does not have to be so mpg conscious, and BJ can easily gain a lot of new friends.

Not as if he could go somewhere else abroad. Not as if he could even move to the MB brand, the name DaimlerChrysler had left a permanent scar in his heart.

First off, never said Mercedes Benz wasn't a luxury car. Of course it is. But the Audi, Infiniti, Lexus, Cadillac, and Acura brands most certainly are not.

Mercedes Benz and BMW make their cars from the beginning to be $50,000 luxury cars. Those other brands design their cars from the beginning to be $25,000 Volkswagen's, Mitsubishi's, Toyota's, Cheverolet's, and Honda's.

A BMW 3 Series or a Mercedes C Class are just that- they are those cars. An Audi A3 is a Passat, an A5 is a Jetta, whatever. An Acura TSX is a Civic, a TL is an Accord, whatever.

Again, no one in America aspires to own an Audi. An Audi is something you get when the practical side of your brain overtakes the emotional side, saves you a few dollars, makes your friends and neighbors think you're not an arrogant BMW driving snob.

BJ

I gotta give you credit for being persistent, however wrong/losing end of the argument you may be on.

I just can't comprehend your endless infatuation with BMW. Yes, we are all fans of the brand, but you seem to have taken an extra step of being emotionally married to it.

Following your trend of thought, would it be fair to say that the Porsche 911 is a re-badged VW Bettle? And the Audi R8 would be rebadged what? And the Lambo Reventon?

Ever wonder why many think BMW drivers are snobs? I think you should look yourself in the mirror for an answer.

First off, never said Mercedes Benz wasn't a luxury car. Of course it is. But the Audi, Infiniti, Lexus, Cadillac, and Acura brands most certainly are not.

Mercedes Benz and BMW make their cars from the beginning to be $50,000 luxury cars. Those other brands design their cars from the beginning to be $25,000 Volkswagen's, Mitsubishi's, Toyota's, Cheverolet's, and Honda's.

A BMW 3 Series or a Mercedes C Class are just that- they are those cars. An Audi A3 is a Passat, an A5 is a Jetta, whatever. An Acura TSX is a Civic, a TL is an Accord, whatever.

Again, no one in America aspires to own an Audi. An Audi is something you get when the practical side of your brain overtakes the emotional side, saves you a few dollars, makes your friends and neighbors think you're not an arrogant BMW driving snob.

BJ

Partially right, partially wrong and mostly the same old tired BoltJames shtick. The A5 is not a Jetta or any other VW chassis. And of course, every brand you name is considered by the general public to be a luxury brand. Just because BMW and Mercedes are not part of larger groups doesn't make them any more "special" or "luxury" than their competition. And other than the ES and SUV's every Lexus has their own specific non-Toyota chassis.

Mercedes Benz and BMW make their cars from the beginning to be $50,000 luxury cars. Those other brands design their cars from the beginning to be $25,000 Volkswagen's, Mitsubishi's, Toyota's, Cheverolet's, and Honda's.

There are plenty of cheap strip down BMW and Mercedes in Europe and they are basically the same car as the BMW sold here but at half of the cost. Going with that same train of thought, isnt that relationship the same as the ES350 being a dress up Toyota Avalon?

I am not too sure why they always compare the new F30 with all season tires, to other brands with standard performance tires. The tires make significant contribution to the "spreadsheet" results.

Having said that, I wasn't surprised that the S4 in its standard form is a more fun and better driver's car, it was built that way. It should be compared to a 335i with m sport and other performance add-ons.

Agreed. This comparo isn't apples to apples. He needs to do it again with an M Sport. I have never heard anyone call BMW's stability control intrusive. Did they change its parameters? I've also never heard anyone say the 3er's interior was more luxurious than the A4's. Weird.

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Then and Than are different words and they are not interchangeable.

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- Geo. Orwell

Agreed. This comparo isn't apples to apples. He needs to do it again with an M Sport. I have never heard anyone call BMW's stability control intrusive. Did they change its parameters? I've also never heard anyone say the 3er's interior was more luxurious than the A4's. Weird.

My guess is at the time of the comparison, the M Sport wasn't available yet. So, unfortunately for the 335i, it loses the comparison because BMW decided to make the Sport more eco-friendly than enthusiast-friendly.

BMW losing the occasional comparo is not a bad thing, that kind of feedback (kind of like when C&D gave the performance sedan crown to the S4 a few years ago and the 335i was toppled) is what drives them to do better.

BMW is toeing a fine line, between economy, "luxury" and performance.... and they are eyeing China, where performance is much less of a concern typically, as eventually displacing the US as their biggest market.

If Germany was their biggest market, we would see a very different kind of product I think in the 3 series.

Who has taken their BMW apart (I have, and not just mine) and noticed that the components are of no better quality than those of an Audi, or VW in some cases.

Who wants to hobnob with folks who "hob-knob?"

This forum actually reminds me of the VW, Audi, Volvo and Saab forums I have belonged to in the past. Very helpful members and very little arrogance. In my experience, Benz forums are full of the latter. Those types seem to have little car knowledge. Still great cars to own though.

My guess is at the time of the comparison, the M Sport wasn't available yet. So, unfortunately for the 335i, it loses the comparison because BMW decided to make the Sport more eco-friendly than enthusiast-friendly.

Agreed. This is the reason I would not be interested in a 2012 model. DUMB decision by BMWNA. Someone should be fired. They should have had the sense to know this handicapped car would be compared to the top of the line competitors. This isn't their first rodeo. Now all these mediocre first impressions are out there in internet foreverland.

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Then and Than are different words and they are not interchangeable.

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- Geo. Orwell

BMW losing the occasional comparo is not a bad thing, that kind of feedback (kind of like when C&D gave the performance sedan crown to the S4 a few years ago and the 335i was toppled) is what drives them to do better.

BMW is toeing a fine line, between economy, "luxury" and performance.... and they are eyeing China, where performance is much less of a concern typically, as eventually displacing the US as their biggest market.

If Germany was their biggest market, we would see a very different kind of product I think in the 3 series.

There is a very different 3er in Germany. Lots of four cylinder diesels with manual transmissions.

__________________

Then and Than are different words and they are not interchangeable.

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- Geo. Orwell