‘Commentary’ covers its eyes and makes Palestinians disappear

Jonathan S. Tobin, Senior Online Editor Commentary Magazine

In one of the most amusingly delusional wishful thinking hasbara articles I have ever read Jonathan Tobin tries and fails to convince us nobody is really worried or even thinking about Palestinians anymore, and they are irrelevant. I kid you not. This is a must read in terms of setting a new tone of fanatical discourse. It’s almost unbelievable, but then again, it is what we’ve come to expect from Commentary Magazine.

In the very same paragraph Tobin references the Hamas Fatah unity deal as “what can only be termed a momentous turn of events” the confirmation Palestinians are ‘irrelevant’ is supposedly due to the “lack of alarm or even much worry about the impact of Hamas on the peace process”.

Someone should clue in Tobin the ‘lack of alarm’ doesn’t signal the irrelevance of Palestinians, it rather confirms the general public is not freaking out by the prospect of dealing with Hamas and would rather see the show on the road. All that pro team fear mongering just isn’t working. What it signifies (and everyone already knows) is there simply is no ‘peace process’ where Israel is concerned and hasn’t been for long long time, if ever. It’s been a delay hoax for long enough and nobody is chomping anymore, least of all Palestinians. Literally nobody, no one I can think of anyway.

Tobin claims “the world is gradually moving on”. Uh huh/not. In fact there were, according to Google, over a 1507 related articles covering the recent signing, including Fox News, the Financial Times, the SF Chronicle and everyone in between. That doesn’t sound like moving on to me, it sounds like ‘in the news’. The most recent (7 minutes ago as I’m typing this) is from the editorial staff at Haaretz, Netanyahu is punishing Israel :

Netanyahu’s ultimatum looks like a pretext for torpedoing talks on a final-status agreement based on the Quartet’s outline and U.S. President Barack Obama’s speech last May. But these negotiations were on the rocks even before Abbas signed the agreement with the head of Hamas’ political bureau, Khaled Meshal, due to Israel’s refusal to freeze construction in the settlements and present substantive positions on a permanent border.

The ongoing crisis in the diplomatic process is playing a key role in tilting the political balance in the territories toward the opponents of a compromise. These opponents already laud the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza as a victory for “the resistance,” and burying the diplomatic process would open a path for them to take over leadership of both the PA and the PLO in the upcoming competition for the Palestinian electorate’s backing.

Netanyahu must end his obsessive search for flaws in the internal Palestinian agreement and focus instead on an initiative for ending the conflict. For he has the ability to do so.

No one in the reality based community is pretending this is over or that Palestinians are ‘irrelevant’. Things are just heating up. Palestinians did the polite thing. Once again they bent over backwards, delayed their UN bid and carried out the wishes of the Quartet (wishes Israel flipped the bird at and twisted around with all the best hasbara their think tanks could come up with). We’re moving on from Commentary’s overwraught bloviations (“Peace will have to wait until a sea change in Palestinian political culture that will make it possible for the PA to sign a deal that recognizes the legitimacy of a Jewish state no matter where its borders are drawn.”). People are accepting Hamas is here to stay and serious people should prepare to play ball. Maybe you should grow up and start reading the news. Here’s Bloomberg : Making a Fatah and Hamas Partnership Work for U.S., Israel:

The news that the mainstream Palestinian group Fatah has agreed to form a unity government with the militantly Islamist Hamas may move some to dismay. Although there are ample reasons for that reaction, this development may also present an opportunity.

There is evidence, however, that the movement is re- evaluating its friends and options and that at least some of the leaders in this fractious organization are experimenting with a more pragmatic tone. Hamas’s agreement to share power with secular rival Fatah is itself something of a concession.

All of this leaves policy makers in the U.S. and Israel with two broad options: They can seize on these developments as a moment of weakness for Hamas and seek to reinforce its isolation, thereby preserving the status quo; or they can work with governments that have open communications with Hamas, such as Turkey, Qatar and Jordan, as well as the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, to encourage Hamas onto a more moderate path. At this particular moment, the latter seems a policy worth exploring.

Isolation has succeeded in keeping Hamas militarily weak, but on other counts the policy has failed. Notably, it ensured that Hamas remained in the willing arms of Iran, and an economic blockade failed to stir revolt inside Gaza. Hamas is unlikely to fold up and disappear any time soon.

Who’s irrelevant? Commentary Magazine, that’s who.

About Annie Robbins

Annie Robbins is Editor at Large for Mondoweiss, a mother, a human rights activist and a ceramic artist. She lives in the SF bay area. Follow her on Twitter @anniefofani

115 Responses

The implication here is that since both major Palestinian factions have elected to eschew militant tactics in favor of civil or diplomatic ones, therefore “Palestinians are irrelevant” — which paradoxically seems to acknowledge that the militant dimensions of the Palestinian struggle are what have made Palestinians “relevant”.

Nonetheless, this is clearly delusional talk. The majority of the Security Council and the General Assembly of the UN wish to recognize Palestine and UNESCO has given Palestine national recognition — so tell us, o Commentary, again, how are Palestinians irrelevant?

david, i recommend this video: GAZANS DIVIDED OVER THE WAY RECONCILIATION IS CONDUCTED February 6th 2012

i am well aware this chapter isn’t the most awesome transformation since sliced bread and everyone isn’t jumping for joy.

however, proceeding with the UN bid might present legal options for palestinians going forward, options not available presently and i’m assuming this ‘unity’ may facilitate those options. furthermore, the last link in the article embedded in “Hamas is unlikely to fold up and disappear any time soon” check out “(4) Alternatives to Negotiations and Going to the UN: ”

that said, i am always weary of polls.

the main reason i like it is it defies IS/US. it is probable US congress will threaten to cut off funds for the PA which i think could be a good thing. there needs to be a shake up in the balance of power. either the US will hold their nose and fund the PA or not. it’s fairly obvious the security council will veto the UN bid but that doesn’t stop palestinians from seeking recognition in other UN bodies.

either way, i like it when palestinians don’t follow occupation orders and the barking from netanyahu and the hasbarists is telling. it’s movement, it represents a shift, might lead to elections and creates a wedge between the PA and the US. it wasn’t intended as a cheerleading post tho. the point was palestinians are not irrelevant, and they are not going away or dropping off the radar no matter how much commentary claims or wishes. it’s a stupid new talking pt and not supported by any evidence.

No reason to cheer the fact that both the resistance-orientated HAMAS & the former US/Israel puppet Fatah are now working together as a unity representing the Palestinians people? Why wouldn’t anyone who cares about the Palestinian people cheer for the wrench this unity has thrown into the US/Israeli divide and conquer strategy, which treats Palestinian plight as a slightly annoying afterthought to the supreme priority of securing Greater Israel and maintaing its hegemony in the ME?

David Green as much as I respect and enjoy reading the Angry Arab, I do not think we should follow his advice. Nor do I think he expects us to follow his advice. He has an important role to play but it is not his intention to coordinate the political actions of Western supporters of justice for the Palestinians. He has a different audience.

“Weeks ago, I posted that Hamas is for sale. The movement is no more for sale. It has been purchased by Qatar. Khalid Misha`al would change the name of the movement to “potato” if he receives the right offer.”

There are a lot of things the Angry Arab says that I don’t agree with. Nevertheless, he is on target. A viable Palestinian resistance must come from elsewhere.

see above? what is that supposed to mean? you link to a year old set of questions. everyone read the above already. what are you advocating? why don’t you be more specific david? just spill your guts for us. what do you think should happen instead of this latest ‘unity’ move?

It’s not for me to say what the next move should be. It is for me to say that this move does not portend much if anything in relation to resistance to occupation. It’s more for you to provide some evidence that it does, since you’re the one implying this.

Annie, just because you spill your guts on a daily basis, that doesn’t mean other people feel that that’s appropriate behavior.

It’s not all that hard to spot hasbara in Commentary, which has been a regular feature for about 45 years. It’s not exactly news that Commentary is written by racist assholes.

Insofar as this development is seen as an opportunity in the mainstream media, it’s in the context of what can only be called the possibility of capitulation. It’s parallel to Madrid/Oslo regarding the PLO. That likely explains the volume of coverage, and the implications of that coverage.

Annie, just because you spill your guts on a daily basis, that doesn’t mean other people feel that’s appropriate behavior.

oh yawn.

It’s not for me to say what the next move should be. It is for me to say that this move does not portend much if anything in relation to resistance to occupation. It’s more for you to provide some evidence that it does, since you’re the one implying this.

i don’t even mention resistance to occupation. the ‘implication’ of my point is in the title. what’s become absolutely clear to me (and i urge everyone to open this link as proof ) is you demonstrate an obsession when it comes to accusing me of crap (and these are only the comments where you used my name, it doesn’t include your other insults in the course of debate where you didn’t spell out my name) . you’ve called me a ‘blankfort groupie’, part of a ‘blankfort brigade’, claimed i called gates a ‘zionist parasite’, called me a coward, banal, lame brain, more blankfort association (btw, lots of what blankfort discusses is way beyond my area of expertise therefore i generally don’t engage in those conversations so i don’t know what all your obsessive blankfort/annie association is all about but i’ll wear it as a feather in my cap rather than renounce it, but understand it..no i don’t know what you even mean). it won’t stop with you.

you’re the one making mountains out of molehills wrt to my ‘implications’ and you’ve not blockquoted one thing in this article to substantiate this alleged ‘implication’ of mine. nothing. so take your crazy ‘It’s more for you to provide some evidence’ assertion and shove it!

as for what’s ‘appropriate behavior’ around this site take it up with management, they approve all my articles before publication. and if you think commentary magazine claiming palestinians are ‘irrelevant’ is such a non story why are you rearing your little head in this thread? why?

it rather confirms the general public is not freaking out by the prospect of dealing with Hamas and would rather see the show on the road.

What it signifies (and everyone already knows) is there simply is no ‘peace process’ where Israel is concerned and hasn’t been for long long time, if ever. It’s been a delay hoax for long enough and nobody is chomping anymore, least of all Palestinians.

Tobin claims “the world is gradually moving on”. Uh huh/not. …. That doesn’t sound like moving on to me, it sounds like ‘in the news’.

No one in the reality based community is pretending this is over or that Palestinians are ‘irrelevant’.

People are accepting Hamas is here to stay and serious people should prepare to play ball.

see, contrary to your continued bs, the point is palestinians are not irrelevant, hamas isn’t disappearing any time soon, the world is not ‘moving on’ from this issue and serious people should take this opportunity to make something of it (from bloomberg’s bolded section “this development may also present an opportunity.“)

you’re wasting everyones time david. but once again you’ve provided me another opportunity to unmask your agenda, on a slow day no less, so thanks.

your idea of ‘appropriate’ is calling people ‘lame brained’.

Insofar as this development is seen as an opportunity in the mainstream media, it’s in the context of what can only be called the possibility of capitulation. It’s parallel to Madrid/Oslo regarding the PLO. That likely explains the volume of coverage, and the implications of that coverage.

yes, that is certainly the meme coming out of certain sectors of the press. are you disappointed in hamas? would you rather meshaal give a speech on palestinians options aside from non violent resistance?

annie, I opened David Green’s profile link and scanned his 19 comments.

There were more than 19 “annie”s in those comments. Perhaps he’s obsessed with you, perhaps he’s one of these strange chaps who likes women to thrash him, perhaps that’s what he meant by his ‘appropriate behavior’ line.

and if you follow some of those links they are made in conversations i am not even a part of. and generally he goes after me over nuthin stuff, just stupid arguments not worth having for the sake of, apparently, just challenging me.

ok, i’m all for resistance to occupation. if hamas, according to him or anyone has kerplunked, then what does he have in mind? someone organizing an intifada? a non non violent intifada? another resistance group israel won’t communicate with? he doesn’t say. assuming he is correct and this is a hamas capitulation how would it serve for hamas not to be part of a unified government? because things have been progressing so swimmingly? he doesn’t say. he says “It’s not for me to say what the next move should be. ” but apparently it is me who ‘implied’ this is resistance to occupation. hamas has been telling abbas to disengage from this faux ‘peace process’ and he has. hamas has been telling abbas no fayyad, so fayyad is not leading the interim government. it sounds to me like hamas is taking a backseat as long as their wishes are respected. that sounds like compromise to me. but it’s not compromising with israel intransigence, it’s compromising with fatah. power sharing. maybe this move best represents hamas and fatah’s reconciliation than resistance to occupation per se. but since the occupation relies on and demands polarizing fatah and hamas on opposite ends of the spectrum then unification in and of itself resists the zionist agenda. going to the UN certainly resists the zionist agenda.

Annie, re: “… since the occupation relies on and demands polarizing fatah and hamas on opposite ends of the spectrum then unification in and of itself resists the zionist agenda. going to the UN certainly resists the zionist agenda.”

Exactly. Why shouldn’t Palestinians and those who support their very much humanitarian cause support accordingly any wrench thrown in the Israeli-USLackey strategy of divide and conquer?

i can understand the lack of enthusiasm in gaza (the earlier video). if i were palestinian i would be weary of getting my hopes up and throwing a party every time something happened. but remember a year ago when they burst out onto the streets and had a unification demonstration? it should not be too hard to forget because, unfortunately, it synced with news of the fogel murders and some news sources (like memri) claimed the celebrations (for unification) were not what they were.

then it wasn’t long after that hamas and fatah met in egypt and there were rifles fired into the air and more celebration. it’s hard to get very enthused lately because of israels attacks in gaza. they keep killing innocent people.

anyway, since the release of the palestine papers. less than two weeks later the arab spring …they have been making steady changes. they announced the unification, they had several meetings, they said they were going to the UN, they went to the UN, they delayed/finished the quartets request and said they were going back to the UN after jan 26th..so i see this as part of a broader plan. plus, meshaal made the rounds to a bunch of arab nations. i don’t think this is a one shot action. i think palestinians in conjunction with other arab leaders are pursuing an agenda. we just don’t know what it is yet.

Exactly annie,……I haven’t followed this whole conversation but one of the conditions the UN requires is that Palestine prove it has a ‘unified” government for it to be “a recongized country”…naturally.
So of course that has to include Hamas who controls Gaza as part of Palestine.
Abbas and Hamas have been trying to unite for years off and on since the US threw out Hamas’s election win.
I hope they can get something that sticks….they have to if they are to go forward at UN.

Foreign Ministry says int’l community must clarify to PA it will not deal with Palestinian gov’t that includes unreformed Hamas; J’lem threatens to revoke economic incentives to Palestinians.

apparently israel doesn’t see this as a capitulation.

Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman, meeting in New York Thursday with the UN ambassadors from 15 countries, said Israel would not accept a Palestinian government with Hamas as a member if it did not accept the international community’s three criteria. ………..”The international community can play a role in promoting peace,” The Foreign Ministry wrote in a paper on the Hamas-Fatah deal circulated Thursday. “It must stand by the Quartet’s three principles. By clarifying to the Palestinian Authority that impenitent terrorist organizations cannot be partners with those seeking peace, the world will be telling the Palestinians that terrorism will not be tolerated or rewarded.”
..

The paper asserted that the reconciliation of the main Palestinian factions could have meant that Hamas adopted Fatah’s line and would be willing to engage in negotiations with Israel. Instead, “it now seems that Fatah, the main component of the Palestinian Authority, is the one rallying behind Hamas’ extremist views.”

….

The paper said that Mashaal made his position clear after signing the agreement, saying the agreement would create greater unity “in order to be free for confronting the enemy.”

and here’s more amusing lingo:

“Israel is not going to come with any confidence building measures if this agreement is implemented,” one diplomatic official said. A sign of its implementation, he added, would be Fayyad’s replacement.

confidence building measures. that’s what it is they are offering if palestine steps up into their good graces. measures that build ‘confidence’.

“Peace will have to wait until a sea change in Palestinian political culture that will make it possible for the PA to sign a deal that recognizes the legitimacy of a Jewish state no matter where its borders are drawn.”

Vile, but quite to the point (Bibi’s point). No decent person would recommend that the robbers be left to decide how much — if any — of the loot to return to the victim, but many in Zio-land are not at all worried about appearing “decent” to non-Zios.

In a way, this encapsulates the history of American-Jewish reaction to Zionism. When American Jews felt weak (1940s) they were non-Zionist or even anti-Zionist. To align with the robbers would be indecent and subject USA’s Jews to retaliation. better to keep a low profile. But when Zionism was adopted as part of USA’s own imperialism (and decency was out the door on many fronts), USA’s Jews — who’d lost any other religion and thus any other societal focus than Zionism — joined the Zios, and today the older generation is still there — adn some of us are waiting for the younger USA-Jewish generation to do two things, both necessary to our project: [1] break with Zionism as a focus or item of respect and [2] become actively anti-Israel to the extent of seeking to reverse the changes since 1967. Commentary is not helping with the latter except as revulsion to its fulminations might create backlash. My guess is the younger generation don’t bother with trash like commentary and will not backlash against it.

My first reaction to this statement — “no matter where the borders are drawn” — was where then: Between the Nile and Euphrates? Wasn’t that one of the goals of the early Zionists? Certainly, Israel believed the northern border should be north of the Litani River in Lebanon. They went to war in Lebanon in 1982 and again in 2006 to achieve that border. Of course, Israel got its ass kicked by Hezbollah and that ended that ambition, at least in the short term. I suspect they still covet the Sinai Pennisula should the Egyptian peace treaty unravel.

Yes Woody it is absolutely vile. These are the deranged fantasies of Israelis who only believe in perpetual war. It is not often that they reveal their long term plans in such stark terms.

Annie your post is great. Jonathon Tobin ‘s piece demonstrating more desperation. ” the rest of the world is gradually moving on.” The rest of the world is learning more about the facts on the ground in the conflict….especially Americans.

This ludicrous line of Tobins really demonstrates his insane views

“Peace will have to wait until a sea change in Palestinian political culture that will make it possible for the PA to sign a deal that recognizes the legitimacy of a Jewish state no matter where its borders are drawn.”

“no matter where its borders are drawn” The majority of people around the world and internationally recognized organizations recognize Israel based on the 67 border. Period. All settlements illegal

I agree, Kathleen, Annie did a great job on her post here. And you hit the most salient point: “no matter where borders are drawn.” Perhaps all the Palestinians should get on a rock and shout to the high heavens, “We declare Israel is the state of the Jews now and forever because that is only just and fair given what Gentiles did to them in Europe over centuries simply because they were born Jewish, and so we affirm that Israel is all land Palestinians lived on for centuries except for this rock, which we recognize as the border of our own land for eternity. Can somebody help balance us? As you can see we’re standing on each other’s heads–“

thanks kathleen and citizen. yes, that line definitely jumped out at me which is why i italiced it in the main body of the text and referenced it as Commentary’s overwraught bloviations. the audacity is truly mindboggling. there appears to be no limit to their colonialist mind games.

Chutzpah does not need to be limited to Zionist supremacists. What needs to be done is to link such supremacists with David Duke’s line of thought. It’s actually easy. Duke is relegated to the fringe of civilized society–time to do the same with Jewish Zionists. Christian Zionists, because the have no Shoah to call their own, must be dealt with as simple religious cultists.

Palestine is as relevant as ever, which is why thinking humanists like Lupe Fiasco or Tilda Swinton sport a Palestine flag.

“recognizes the legitimacy of a Jewish state no matter where its borders are drawn”

That’s like, in 1946, asking France and Poland to accept the legitimacy of Germany, no matter where its borders are drawn. I can’t understand how supremacist racism and expansionist nationalism suddenly becomes okay and unnoticed by watchdogs, when Israel is the benefactor.

Thanks, for sharing the link, RepStones. Meh. Tobin has form all right. He even looks like the rodent he is. Commentary is not exactly The Reader’s Digest. Then again, subscribers to The Readers Digest over the years have steadfastly maintained their advanced ignorance of the slippage between America’s best values and America’s foreign policy since the 1950s when The Reader’s Digest was in most American homes.

Topic: Guest – a foreign policy expert and former key aide to Secretary of State Hillary Clinton – will respond to the recent rising of tensions between the U.S., the international community – and Syria and Iran.

Topic: Discuss the future policy options the United States could use against Iran over concerns of its nuclear program. Currently sanctions are in place but Defense Secretary Leon Panetta has been quoted saying the U.S. is “prepared to respond if we have to”.

ASH JAIN REPEATED SO MANY LIES ABOUT IRAN IT WAS TOUGH TO KEEP UP

#Michael Singh, Washington Institute for Near East Policy, Managing Director

Topic: Earlier this month, Iran warned the U.S. not to return its aircraft carrier that left the Persian Gulf through the Strait of Hormuz. Guest will discuss where the Strait of Hormuz is, how much of the world’s oil passes through the Strait on a daily basis and what impact the closing of the Strait could have on the world oil supply.

SO WITHIN LESS THAN A MONTH CSPAN’S WASHINGTON JOURNAL CHOSE TWO GUEST TO SPEAK ABOUT IRAN WHO REPEATED LIES ABOUT IRAN. BOTH ARE FROM THE WASHINGTON INSTITUTE FOR NEAR EAST POLICY. Mr. Singh the director of WINEP on Jan 8,2012 and then MR. Ash Jain on Feb 5 also from WINEP. And then mixed in during that month (Jan 5- Feb 8) the two other quest that Cspans Washington Journal chose to speak about the situation with Iran were Anne Marie Slaughter, who I have heard repeat unsubstantiated claims about Iran as well as always repeat that US national security and Israel’s national security are one and the same. Today as Photi pointed out they had Yochi Dreazen who was also repeating myths about Iran and pushing the idea that a nuclear arms race is starting in that neighborhood due to Irans alleged efforts to produce nuclear weapons.

What is up with CSpans Washington Journals choice of guest? At the very least they could mix it up a bit and not continue to only choose guest who are promoting a military conflict with Iran. When will they have on Flynt and Hillary Mann Leverett, former weapons inspector Robert Kelly, Professor Juan Cole. Seems like the producers or those that choose the guest at Washington Journal need to be contacted by folks

Kathleen, that’s a good summary of how slanted CSPAN WJ has become–the last refuge for free speech on Israel and its Hitler: Iran, has opted to side with Israel’s POV, so much for our cable channels, eh? Also, Yochi Dreazen, who was on the show this morning repeated the big lie that Iran has said it wanted Israel to be “wiped off the map.” Later in the show, he supported his parroting of that big lie (parroted constantly by all GOP presidential candidates [except Ron Paul]) by saying Iran called Israel “a cancer.” I tweeted to CSPAN WJ the correct translation of Iran’s president (“will be erased from the pages of time [like USSR]”) but it was not mentioned on the show, nor did it appear on Twitter’s rolling show log. I also tweeted Israel keeps calling Iran Hitler both directly and in a myriad of ways, but that tweet did not appear either.

When Connie Doebele was forced to humiliate herself for offending the delicate sensitivities of Deborah Lipstadt, C Span manager Richard Weinstein conducted the inquisition. link to c-spanvideo.org (Looks like someone at C Span retaliated by posting a photo of Lipstadt that looks like a gargoyle.)

Brian Lamb is very sensitive to Jewish issues, possibly based on family background — he has said his mother is “very religious.” He’s from Lafayette, Indiana, which was among the “burnt over” districts in one of the great religious awakenings in the 19th century – early 20th century. Might be from an evangelical background. He was discussing a book about Sandy Weil, founder of Citibank, with the book’s author. The author mentioned that Weil frequently said he was trying to make the bank the biggest & most powerful etc. to prove that a Jew could do it, or something like that. Lamb registered distaste that Weil would say stuff like that. As Israel Shahak has said, most non-Jews and plenty of Jews, too, have no idea of Jewish history or lifestyle beyond a few passages from the Old Testament and Holocaust. Most people don’t think of Jews as having a distinct history. Incredibly, for as broadly read as he is, Brian Lamb seems to be in that category.
Lamb’s background is US Navy communications (or something like that, involving news gathering/reporting), then he worked in the Reagan administration.
Here’s C Span’s founding board of directors:
C-SPAN’s FOUNDING BOARD OF DIRECTORS
1978

But beyond all that, C Span is increasingly zio-friendly. It’s probably projection; I sense fear in many of the moderators on Wash Journal. Greta Brawner was a rock star when she started — such fresh good looks, etc. But she is to the right of Newt Gingrich, and as curious about the real world as George W. Bush. A really disappointing young woman.
Susan Swain is a saint, but even she seems forced to toe the line — CAMERA is watching you: I think CAMERA has a definite chilling effect.
Steve Scully is hopeless. He’s uber Catholic, and a lot of Catholics are enormously right-wing; a larger % of Catholics voted for McCain than Obama.
Pedro Ecchavaria comes from a poor Puerto Rican background; he’s worked hard, worked his way up, and does his best to be as professional, detached, and non-controversial as possible.
I haven’t seen the black fellow, Rob ?? lately — he has a marvelously dry sense of humor.
Peter Slen is absolutely impeccably professional in every way.

About two or three years ago C Span hired a new producer who has a Jewish name. Maybe that’s where the pressure comes from. She never appears on camera.

when i was stuck in the chicago airport for 3 hrs returning home from pennbds i noticed all the televisions hanging from the ceiling were on cnn. it was non stop iran iran iran. i don’t know who they were interviewing, different people, but lots of ‘obama is really worried’ stuff. just on and on. the sound was loud too, you couldn’t get away from it in the gates.

the report itself isn’t news, came out last month again after the most recent scientist was assassinated. i saw the first embedded link, where it says (Click here to see a video report of the interrogation shown on Iranian televsion.), last month.

a psychiatrist ought to carefully examine Ronen Bergman. I think the man is insane.
Here’s a transcript of his comments on the Brian Williams piece about murdering Iran’s scientists.

Bergman: “From the day of its establishment the Israeli secret services have used the weapon of assassinations — of targeted killing–more extensively than any other country in the world. Een the cruel tyrants like Stalin or Saddam Hussein were far more hesitant when it came to overseas assassinations.
Israel being a small country with limited resources, almost from day one was aiming at targeted operations rather than all out wars, hoping that by taking out individuals they can alter — change the course of history. I think that it is morally justified to kill people that are of national threat — national security threat to your county. If they belief that if a terrorist is carrying a bomb or is planning a suicide bombing, you have a moral and judicial right to strike him back.
Now I don’t support the comparison that Pres. Netanyahu made between Ahmadinejad and Hitler. I think it’s wrong. Hitler should not be compared to anything. And yet this is the comparison being made by the leaders of Israel. Once this is the comparison, once your arch-nemesis is Hitler, then all means are justified to stop it. Once the threat is an existential one and you defend your people from another annihilation, then I would assume that everybody would justify recruiting [people] whoever they are, even if they are terrorists, [to take out] a new Hitler.”

Q: “Do you believe the Israelis are working with the People’s Mujahiddin of Iran? [MEK]

Bergman: grins, lips tightly closed, says nothing.

Q: “Do you believe Israel is working with Iranian dissidents?”

Bergman: “I would say this: Iran is highly alert to the possibility of Israelis infiltrating it with false identities, trying to kill people, sabotage the Iranian nuclear project. And therefore, it is very hard for Israelis to work in Iran. _____ ? unlike the history of –most of the history of Israeli intelligence, with these operations were conducted on a quote blue and white principle, which is the colors of the flags of Israel, which means only the Israeli citizens only Jews participate in such an operation. Maybe in Iran the case is different because Iran is a different territory and very hard to work in. When you got such a territory you might think to recruit locals [rather than] your own people.

I would say that the likelihood of the potential strike –an Israeli strike over the Iranian nuclear sites is very high because Israel doesn’t believe that sanctions work. Nobody believes that Israel is capable of destroying the project, even if the project is destroyed the scientists can rebuild it. Uh, but people are talking about the potential significant delay, and the latest assessment from Israeli intelligence suggests that they — the potential successful strike, according to plan, would yield a delay of 3 to 5 years.”

Israelis are still patting themselves on the back for bombing Osirik in Iraq (they used unmarked but American aircraft, btw). As someone said earlier, Israelis are playing dress-up; they’re living out some drama. Osirik made them feel like hot shots, even tho it set off a chain reaction that cost probably 2 million lives. They want to do it again.

Whatever the rationale for the unity agreement, and I agree Palestinian unity is essential, I am a little perturbed by the ammount of power Abbas has accrued, Abbas has shown high handedness in the past, his Presidency expired years ago and he has shown contempt for the Palestinian Legislative council and its basic law on several occasions, he is now almost a Pharaoh, I am no fan of Abbas who has been collaborator in chief for the Israelis for many years, this sarcastic comment in the Jerusalem Post sums it up a Palestinian activist Ruba al-Najjar wrote: “Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas congratulates the new prime minister, Mahmoud Abbas, and invites him to meet with the chairman of the Fatah Central Committee, Mahmoud Abbas, under the auspices of the head of the PLO Executive Committee, Mahmoud Abbas, at the home of the overall commander of the Palestinian Armed Forces, Mahmoud Abbas.” [ Jerusalem Post 07 feb 2012]

LOL! I’m sure Abbas plans to retire soon anyways. I think Abbas wanted Fayyad to head the unity government last year, but Hamas wasn’t crazy about that. Not a whole lot of alternatives. Wouldn’t work for obvious reasons if Haniyeh headed it. Not very many choices left for the time being. I think Abbas makes sense until elections decide otherwise. I definitely understand where concerned Palestinians are coming from considering Abbas’ relationship with Israeli diplomats and comments about Cast Lead, etc.

since it seems clear very few options seem available for palestininans at this juncture, this move is for preparations to advance w/the UN options. so, since abbas was the one who went there to begin with he will be positioned to continue.

Interesting point and typical. Although in one way or another, i see no real progress for the Palestinians and time is running out.

I have always found it interesting that a lot of these people seem to think it is ridiculous to expect Israel to give up the west bank and relocate 700,000 jews but none seem too worried about relocating the millions of Palestinians so that Israel can be jewish only. How in the world would you ever do it.

Time is running out because of many factors. I am certain there is a lot of pressure on Obama to do things Israel’s way before the election and if he doesn’t the new republican president my do just that. The arab spring crap could easily be used to start trouble in Jordan and after the king is deposed, guess what, a new palestinian state is born, in old Jordan. Syria is already in turmoil and will be happy to sign a peace deal that says, palestinians who ? not our problem.

The arab spring has given Israel a window of opportunity to get many things done about their issues with the palestinians. The arabs are even more divided and weaker now than they ever were before. The GCC is only worried about its own survival and will sell any arab country down the drain to maintain their hold on the oil and gaz resources. Syria is no longer an issue and will be looking inward for years to come. Egypt is also in turmoil and if it survives, the military will have no backbone to worry Israel. Libya is alerady broken in many pieces and will likely stay like that for generations. Tunis and Algeria will be more than happy to turn a blind eye to the rest of the world trying to survive economically and politicaly. Sudan is already dead having lost half its territory and it will be keeping its eyes south not north. So for the next several years, Israel has a window to do the impossible, with the world’s blessing and i think Netanyahou knows this. All he has to do is open the door for a mass migration and create a destination, Jordan. That’s how.

Even if, for the sake of argument, the Jordanian government is deposed, and even if, for the sake of argument, the Palestinians take over the government, what about the Palestinians living in the West Bank?

What about the occupation? What about having different laws for different ethnic groups and religions in the West Bank, which is commonly known as Apartheid, and the disgrace that it brings?

You’re making the Imperialist Error, where you view the regions with a map, and draw lines on a map (or in your mind) and think that that’s the way it works. 2.4 million Palestinians live in their own houses in the West Bank, and they have been living there for thousands of years, and the IDF is occupying them on a permanent, never-ending basis. That wouldnt be changed by changing the government of Jordan.

“How in the world would you ever do it.” Well, maybe in the Middle of weeks and months of pounding Iran et al. and everything that will come with it worldwide, one morning you wake up and their just gone! Palestinians? Who are you talking about?
No such people. Next question.

All he has to do is open the door for a mass migration and create a destination, Jordan. That’s how.

this has got to be one of the weirdest ideas i’ve heard lately. i will assume you are being sarcastic since you already commented ” How in the world would you ever do it.” there will be no voluntary mass migration of WB palestinians to jordan. why would they do that? when you say ‘time is running out’ it implies time stops sometime, it doesn’t. it keeps on going. i’m not seeing any indication the sumud of palestinians weakening. they’re there and don’t seem to be abandoning their home in droves.

So for the next several years, Israel has a window to do the impossible, with the world’s blessing and i think Netanyahou knows this. All he has to do is open the door for a mass migration and create a destination, Jordan. That’s how.

With the world’s blessing? Last I looked, ethnic cleansing was still considered a grave war crime.

One of the writers who participated in the Festival said to me, justifiably, that the sense was that Israelis live between despair–characterizing the left side of the spectrum, and denial–characterizing the right. With very little in between. The denial is intolerable, it can’t survive. The despair too doesn’t elicit any hope. So everything is a mess.

Many of the settlers came from here, even from Brooklyn. This is a subject that concerns me a lot. Because most of them aren’t originally Israeli, but American fanatics who live in a Wild West fantasy in which the Palestinians are the Indians.

These people don’t behave rationally and because of this the situation is quite complicated. This sort of irrationality also characterizes American politics: people so fixed in their ideas that they can only see the world in one way and never change their minds. You can’t have any sort of dialogue with people like this.

Silverstein comments:

In short, the situation in Israel is grim, much grimmer than Auster acknowledges. The real situation has gone far beyond the point of ambivalence and complications. Israel is in a crisis. Its existence is threatened. Not from without, but from within. Settlers aren’t just a complication, they are strangling the secular democratic state he raised money for as a child.

My feeling is that soon the State of Israel, at least as we conceived it when we were young idealistic liberal Zionists, will be doomed. I don’t know what will replace it. It could be something far worse. It could be something better. But its fate hangs in the balance.

Many of the settlers came from here, even from Brooklyn. This is a subject that concerns me a lot. Because most of them aren’t originally Israeli, but American fanatics who live in a Wild West fantasy in which the Palestinians are the Indians.

It’s hard to respond to this information, john h. I’ve known about it for some time but it still leaves me speechless with fury. Palestinian land stolen so these deranged Americans can use it as a movie set!!!

The writing is on the wall. Israel will be the trigger for WW3. Lots of scenarios for this, but that’s the single needed finger on the trigger. That finger relies on the only superpower, America. And America is compromised beyond redemption thanks to its political campaign finance laws and the SCOTUS decision equating corporations with living individual human American citizens for purposes of campaign donations. This can be seen very clearly when you look at the most blatant example of how US foreign policy has been hijacked, Adelson and his lackey Newt. They are legal. That’s the problem. The arch Zionist Adelson cares only for whatever he thinks will help the foreign state of Israel, and Newt cares only for whatever the thinks will help himself. America is doomed because of a paranoid Jewish survivalist and a very, very selfish Gentile who cares for nothing but his comfort.
The rest is only a matter of degree, all bent the same way.

I hope not, but it does keep me up at night on occasion thinking about it.

As others have said (might have even been you that said it actually), if Adelson cares so much about Israel, why doesn’t he live there?

Zionism has different meanings for different people. The original Herzl Jewish state definition. The Christian Zionist definition being related to the Revelation prophecy. The Witty definition. The Revisionist Zionist fascist/racist definition which has long been the status quo. With little exception, there has been a Likud PM for 24 of the past 35 years. One of the few times times they weren’t happened to result in assassination (Rabin) for the peace process. Going against that Revisionist Zionist grain. The Revisionist Zionists including Likud itself having their roots in the pre-Israel terrorist groups.

Hasn’t Zionism served it’s purpose? Israeli immigration/emigration has stabilized. Most of the world’s Jewish people live in the USA. It’s safer here to be quite honest because the US isn’t the size of Maryland and we don’t bully our neighbors into hating us. Christian Zionists were used by Israel to increase the Jewish demographics. Herzl Zionism has already served it’s purpose; Israel already exists. Other forms of Zionism like Witty Zionism IMO are Israeli nationalism which is not what Zionism is.

Which leads me to Revisionist Zionism, the non-religious and terrorist variety of Zionism which sought to create and independent Israel. You would think this served it’s purpose as well, but they really do want all of the land from the river to the sea. With no Palestinians. 64 years later. It is an impossibly unrealistic goal and these people will not give up even if it means WWIII. Which I am afraid of…

Notice the possible backlash exhibited by the recent caucuses against the oligarchial support towards Newt and Willard?Sanitorium,also has a sugar daddy,who was just fingered by the MSM.
I’m still trying to figure out what people see in that idiot,Sanitorium.
Mindboggling,but it does hurt Willards inevitability,a good thing.

I wonder if people like this Tobin guy really even understand the reality of the situation on the ground. Or more likely just don’t care. I just have a feeling that a lot of people are under the impression that Palestinians in Israel have similar status to Kurds living in Turkey. That the Gaza Strip was part of Israel until some militant Muslim terrorist extremists took it over which is why Israel punishes them. I’ve gotten this impression from talking to some folks about it. I could be wrong, but it seems like people believe that all of the WB is part of Israel and that the Palestinians want to secede it for their own state.

I could be wrong, but that’s the impression I am getting. That would explain why people can call the Palestinians ‘irrelevant’. People don’t understand that they aren’t citizens of Israel, nor could they even choose to be if they wanted to. That’s what my wife’s aunt thought. Heck, I probably thought the same thing as a teenager. I/P isn’t Turkey or China/Tibet. Might sound odd, and again I could be wrong. But I really think that’s what many Americans think about I/P.

They are also irrelevant to monkeys that inhabit Titan, the largest moon of Saturn. The existence of those monkeys does not depend in any way on any actions that Palestinians may commit or decline. In fact, quite obstinately, they do not exists under any circumstances.

Peace process may exists in terms of some utterly pointless meeting taking place. Very clearly, Israel has much more important stuff to do. For example, legalization of all settlements that exists now and may exists in the future. Removal of all Beduins from Negev and West Bank to some garbage dumps (literally!). And resolving the vexing issue of non-kosher electricity in a manner that would satisfy both paranoid nationalists and the hyper-religious.

The last issue is quite instructive. Israel exists for Jews and Jews exist for Israel, so everything must be done to satisfy security needs and religious traditions of the Jews. Because Jews can never again trust non-Jews, only Jews can work in power stations which are so essential for security. But religious Jews cannot benefit from work performed by Jews on Saturdays, while even the most pius must have some electricity.

Israel has many problems because it exists for Jews, so it has to satisfy the needs of Jews. BUT some Jews are more Jewish than other. So their needs require special attention. But as the electricity example illustrates, there are very, very Jewish in a mutually incompatible way. For example, to satisfy very, very Jewish Zionist extremists Knesset decided to require loyalty oath the Israel as Jewish state at some occasions, like immigration of a non-Jews. Why non-Jews? Because other very, very Jewish Jews, the anti-Zionist ultra-Orthodox would sooner die then swear an oath to mundane authorities. Hence, you cannot require the oath from all Jews.

So Israel has an entire universe of internal problems and really cannot spare much attention to what goyim or outright Enemies think. Some very very Jewish Jews find it utterly humiliating that their government talks with the Enemies to satisfy whims of anti-Semitic goyim, so the government must prove that those talks are merely a smart ruse. Some Jews prefer to actually get peace rather than the satisfaction of accomplishing a smart ruse. Luckily, they are not very Jewish.

“recognizes the legitimacy of a Jewish state no matter where its borders are drawn”

It should not matter WHERE Palestinian would draw the borders, as long as they recognize the legitimacy of a Jewish state. Note the indefinite article “a”.

Clearly, Judea and Samaria is central to the historical bond of Jews with the Land. The coast was inhabited by the Philistines. So a land swap would make everybody happy: Israel in Judea and Samaria, Palestine in what was formerly Israel, and perhaps Tel Aviv for the second Jewish state, a kind of free-city for secular Jews and gay refugees from other parts. Jerusalem would be reserved for the insane: to have residency rights one would need a certificate from a psychiatrist or swear to believe in something utterly preposterous (this should be edited to satisfy all insane sensibilities).

Commentary magazine was published for many decades by the American Jewish Committee. The magazine served as a launching pad for the career of various neoconservatives, including Jeanne Kirkpatrick.
In the early 1980’s, Commentary gave a favorable review to Joan Peters’ book From Time Immemorial, a book that claimed that Palestine was nearly uninhabited when the first Zionists arrived, and today’s Palestinians are descended from Arabs who moved to Israel, attracted by the wonderful opportunities. (Lots of other US reviewers also praised the book. Norman Finkelstein, working alone, debunked the book).
So as long as three decades ago, Commentary tried to pretend that “there are no Palestinians”, echoing Israeli propaganda claim of “A land without people, for a people without a land”.
Looks like Commentary is running true to form.

“Daniel Byman, a professor in the School of Foreign Service at Georgetown University and also a senior fellow with the Saban Center for Middle East Policy at the Brookings Institution, said that if the accounts of the Israeli-MEK assassinations are accurate, the operation borders on terrorism.”

“borders on terrorism” Israel knows NO borders

”

“Ronen Bergman, while not speaking on behalf of the Israeli government, suggests that there is a justification, citing an oft-repeated but disputed quote in which Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s said that Israel should be wiped off the face of the earth.”

And there we go again that false claim that the Iranian President said “Israel should be wiped off the face of the earth that has been repeated over and over again by the Iraq and now Iran warmongers over the last five years is repeated once again. University of Michigans Professor Juan Cole who speaks Persian debunked that false neocon created claim yearago.

From Informed Comment

Hitchens Hacker And Hitchens
“The phrase he then used as I read it is “The Imam said that this regime occupying Jerusalem (een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods) must [vanish from] from the page of time (bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad).”

Ahmadinejad was not making a threat, he was quoting a saying of Khomeini and urging that pro-Palestinian activists in Iran not give up hope– that the occupation of Jerusalem was no more a continued inevitability than had been the hegemony of the Shah’s government.

Whatever this quotation from a decades-old speech of Khomeini may have meant, Ahmadinejad did not say that “Israel must be wiped off the map” with the implication that phrase has of Nazi-style extermination of a people. He said that the occupation regime over Jerusalem must be erased from the page of time”

i can’t remember who it was but i saw recently quote from a writer who lived through the 1933-45 period in Germany and he said that the Nazis had always said about doing something to the Jews but it was so outrageous and nobody believed them and was only the war that made it possible. and I think it’s the same with Israel and the Endlösung of the total ethnic cleansing of the palestinians. They are building up to this . And it is so outrageous. And their whole system is built around it-. and if they go for it there will be an Israeli Götterdämmerung just like the German one in 1945.

There is something I notice about Israel the more I look at it. Beyond the arrogance, the sunglasses and the nukes there is something missing.
Israel is too earnest and tries too hard. The emotional instability that calls for the entirety of Congress to show its obeisance to the chieftain. The ineptitude behind the cruelty. The Jewish exceptionalism shtick and the banality of the Jewish State. The topics at the Herzliya conference. The Jews in Wall Street they rope in to speak at it. The Jews that don’t want to go there. The provincial buzz of Tel Aviv. The chasm between Hebrew and English. The fact it is not part of any union of states. The need to be loved and constantly reminded of it. The neediness. If Israel was a woman what sort of woman would she be ? Far too complicated for a relationship.

What my Israeli colleague once asked . “What if the West decides that the land belongs to the Palestinians after all ? ”
The feeling that it could all disappear as miraculously as the six day war appeared.

Seafoid, “What if the West decides that the land belongs to the Palestinians after all?” Oh yeah. In the end, the Jews, despite their heavily disproportionate power in terms of world finance, a belated exceptional gift from the traditional anti-usury law of both Christians and Muslims, and no matter how much they profess independence, are subject to the World as a Whole, which is mainly, non-Jewish. In the end, this is not to be escaped. And neither is the World’s sense of fairness, universal ethics, universal individual rights. I don’t know what the world will look like after Israel attacks Iran, but there is no escaping (1) the Jews will will do all they think needed to assure their own survival in this secular world, as Jews, and (2) eventually, if what is done by the Jews to insure their survival as Jews in their own minds, threatens non-Jewish interests, this Jewish will, will always be met with contrary force to the extent that Gentiles want to live in this world as Gentiles too.

Well put. They are missing a vital component to society. It’s the integration into their surroundings, and their self adoration that
perpetuates their isolation. Is this progress? But we’re a vibrant technocratic democracy they say…

The plan of the US supporting the state is flawed, because it allows those inside to stay a perpetual provincial state -a giant hamster wheel inside a mirrored glass box to reflect their vanity. The only progress they make to break out of their bubble is through violence and conquest (which is probably most appealing to the derelict settler). It’s not the time of the Spartans or Maccabees. And they’re not a growing empire, but a slow-growth tribe.

And how can a nation grow, if they are stuck inside their tiny borders?
I feel sorry for the citizens, as it must often feel like a cult state; utterly depressing when the naked truth is revealed to the cognizant ones. At the core, something is amiss.

“…and if they go for it there will be an Israeli Götterdämmerung just like the German one in 1945.”

Germany wasn’t defeated because of the evil of their system. They were defeated because enough Russians took up guns and the Germans didn’t have the weapons to repulse them. Realistically, there is no state which would stop the Israelis if they moved against the Palestinians.

The Germans were defeated because enough Russians took up guns and because the Allies swamped the Germans with more — although inferior — weapons — and logistical equipment, like trucks. A lot of those weapons were made by the Russians, but a lot more were made in the U.S.

Oh, sure, the Western Allies should be on the scoring sheet, getting a +1 for the assist. They probably advanced the victory over the Germans by, what, a year. I think that there is a vast need among the US and UK to belive that their war effort was decisive, if they can’t pretend they did it single handed. They contributed, for sure, but if you’re compiling a list of who should get the credit for destroying the Nazi state, the USSR is first and there is no close second. (Just as in the question of destroying Japan, the USA is first, and there is no close second, even though the USSR’s entry in the war was decisive in ending the conflict.)

Actually lycias, the US delivered some 427,000 motor trucks, 10,000 tanks, 1900 locomotives, 11,000 railway flats, 98 freight ships, 105 sub chasers, 197 torpedo boats, 2.6 million tons of high octane petroleum blending agents, and 4.5 million tons of clothing and foodstuffs. The Red army was largely fed, clothed, and transported by way of the USA. (Albert and Joan Seaton, “The Soviet Army: 1918 to the Present,” 1986, p.137)

Also, I think their weapons, most which they produced themselves, were probably superior to those of America and Britian; their PPSH-41 submachine gun and their T-34 tank put our Tommy gun and Sherman tank to shame. The Germans discovered this at the battle of Moscow in 1941 when T-34 tanks, which were immune to their anti-tank guns, put the fear of God into their infantry.

The Soviets undoubtedly “tore the guts” out of the Wehrmacht, as Churchill put it, but they had a lot of help in doing so, and the campaigns in Italy and NW Europe, as well as the bombing campaign over Germany, all directed considerable resources away from the Eastern Front against the Russians. Had Hitler coordinated the invasion of Russia with a Japanese attack in the far east, I think the Soviet Union would probably collapsed in 1941.

Yeah, Werdine, no doubt the USA contributed a lot to the USSR campaign against German forces. It was facile to equate that manufacturing contribution to the defeat of Germany with the last minute USSR’s joining the attack on Japan. Re the detail about tanks, the Tiger Tank was the best, but replication was minimal compared to the comparatively crappy Sherman, which made up for its inadequacies by numbers; the T-34 was, in contrast, both a match for the
bulk of the German tanks (but not the Tiger) in lethal quality, and in quantity, was also far superior. Some say US trucks alone given to Stalin turned the tide of war. The famous Russian AK rifle was modeled after a German assault rifle, which itself was made during the latter part of the war to counter the Russian “burp gun.” And, as always, as with Napoleon, that Russian Winter…

Yeah, well Woody, the truth is not exactly what you’ve said in your comments here either. And you said your truth as an absolute, while I did not. For those who care, here’s some more info:
“In total, the Soviets received some 17 million tons of lend-lease, of which over 15 million were US.

——-
The first question, i.e. “would the Soviet Union have collapsed without lend-lease ?”, is very difficult to answer for a number of reasons. Personally I believe that it could well have, not in 1941 but during the winter of 1942/43 when the Soviet economy was over-mobilized and the difference between success and failure was very slim, but of course I’m not sure and a good case can be made for the opposite view.

The second question, i.e. “How important was lend-lease to the rest of the war ?” was examined by Mark Harrison in his “Accounting for War”. He assumed that the Soviets would keep civilian consumption at the historical levels, the result being that for 1942-45, in terms of defense outlays, the Soviets would be short of 2.1% of GNP but they would still have 1.6 % (vs. 6.5% with the Lend Lease) left in gross investments and 2.7% (vs. 4.2 % with the Lend Lease) in civilian surplus.
In other words, historically between 1943-45 the Soviets devoted the same (and by the end of the war larger) amounts of resources to rebuilding their country than they received from lend-lease, so Harrison assumes that they would simply make their population suffer a while longer and delay the rebuilding of the country until after the war.
I have my problems with that theory, particularly the fact that rebuilding infrastructure in the liberated areas served a military purpose (supply lines) and not just a “civilian surplus + gross investment” one. However, it should be noted that the Soviets in 1942 weren’t sure exactly how far they could safely go in pressuring their own population, and that the Soviet population received smaller levels of civilian surplus in 1943-44 than in 1942.
So I think it can definitely be considered a fact that the historical Soviet war effort could be increased in an emergency, particularly in 1943-45. Which is one of the reasons why I don’t buy the “Germans maintain a stalemate on the Eastern Front in 1943-45″ scenario, but that’s another story. ://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=1588&start=45

It would have meant a war on two fronts for the Soviet Union. As it was, the SU dealt Japan severe defeats in 1938 and 1939. Zhukov faced the Germans not only with the tactics but also with many of the soldiers he had used against the Japanese.

The Japanese concentrated on China and SE Asia as a reaction to those defeats.

I would actually argue that the greatest asset to the Soviet war effort from August 1941 to early 1943 was not lend-lease, but Adolf Hitler. Hitler’s erratic interference in the operational details, which included direction of company and platoon scale tactical engagements from hundreds of miles away in his HQ at Rastenberg, was his greatest gift to his enemies, and the princpal cause of his demise. It was Hitler, after all, who split Army Group Center in two in August 1941 instaed of taking Moscow while the weather was good and the Russians were reeling. It was Hitler who ordered the Moscow offensive when the autumn rains were turning roads into quagmires, kept it going even when the snow and subzero temps were causing more casualties than the enemy, and refused a sensible withdrawal that could have saved tens of thousands of lives when the Soviets launched a massive counteroffensive on December 6, 1941.

It was Hitler, too, who launched the campaign of the summer, 1942 by attempting to capture both the Caucasus AND Stalingrad, withdrew the armor from von Paulus’ 6th Army when Stalingrad could easily have been taken, engaged in an utterly futile urban battle of attrition in the city that totally negated the Germans’ advantages of mobility and maneuver, watched the Soviets encircle the city, refused to withdraw 6th Army when it was still possible, and then presided over the worst defeat of German arms in history since Napoleon defeated Prussia at Jena and Auerstadt in 1806. In this unprecedented sweeping of an entire army off the map, only some 5000 of the original 300,000 soldiers eventually got back to Germany after the war. He was forced to withdraw from the Caucasus, too.

(The Israelis made a similar error to Stalingrad in 2006 when they allowed themselves to get bogged down in Hezbollah strongholds like Marou al Ras and Bint J’Bail)

I think lend-lease did two important things for the Soviet Union in WWII: it enabled them to concentrate the bulk of their industry on weaponry, and it enourmously aided their logistical apparatus in the great advances of 1943-1945. But, again, those westward advances would not have been as successful as they were had Hitler not aided Stalin by refusing to countenence timely withdrawals which consigned so many German units to be captured or cut to pieces when they might have lived to fight another day. General Manstein in Feb-March 1943 conducted a tactical retreat in the face of a Soviet advance, waited for them to over-extend themselves, then turned around and sliced through their flanks, pushing them back a few hundred miles and pushing them out of Kharkov, which they had just recaptured. This showed what the Germans could do when talented Generals like Manstein were left alone by hitler and given a free hand. Had Manstein and not Hitler directed the war effort in 1943-1944, at the very least the Soviets, I think, would have been much further to the east on June 6, 1944 when we invaded Normandy.

I like Commentary writing their nonsense. It’s good for us, the more absurd and biased the better. Let them encourage their extreme little cabal to a war with Americans and US mainline religions and literally everyone in the world.
That’s how we will win……by popular demand that will swamp our politicians.

“The truth is that the JCPA, the American Jewish Committee (AJC) and other “pro-Israel” organizations do not desire open and free discussion about these issues in America, and when they don’t want to talk about the facts on the ground, they resort to slanderous smear campaigns.
Part of their tactics, as outlined by the Tel Aviv-based Reut Institute, is to delegitimize any opposition to Israeli government policy by accusing those who disagree with it of engaging in anti-Israel, anti-Zionist and even anti-Semitic behavior. It is a campaign known as “delegitimizing the delegitimizers” and it has millions of dollars behind it.
For too long pro-Israel groups in the United States have promoted a two-state solution even while Israeli policy insures that such a thing cannot possibly exist. Answering every false charge leveled against IPMN by these groups accomplishes nothing……paid “pro-Israel” lobbyists desperately fight to take back control of a debate they can no longer win through their bullying behavior”

”I hate bullies. I hate bullies and I love freedom fights.
So I’ve decided I’m not going to play that game anymore. I would like to now go on the offensive, and I would like to talk about AIPAC, and I’d like to talk about the New York Times and Ethan Bronner and Isabel Kershner and David Brooks, and I’d like to, above all, start popping these three bubbles. The people who feel that American foreign policy has been distorted by the neocons, by the media and by AIPAC, it’s time for us to stop arguing about it and start going on the offensive. Stop defending yourself and go on the offensive right now and start popping those three bubbles.
The people who feel that American foreign policy has been distorted by the neocons, by the media and by AIPAC, it’s time for us to stop arguing about it and start going on the offensive. Stop defending yourself and go on the offensive right now and start popping those three bubbles. ‘

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