Detroit vs. EverybodyClowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right....

June 9th, 2005, 11:25 am

m2karateman

RIP Killer

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10408Location: Where ever I'm at now

I look at it this way; since they are here illegally we can do just about anything we want with them, up to and including unlimited jail or detention. As they are not citizens here, they should NEVER be allowed to have protections under the Constitution. Those basic rights and freedoms should only be afforded to those who were born here or have sworn to protect those freedoms, not some idiot that arrived here in the secret compartment of an oil truck or on a work visa that expired months ago.

_________________I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.

As they are not citizens here, they should NEVER be allowed to have protections under the Constitution. Those basic rights and freedoms should only be afforded to those who were born here or have sworn to protect those freedoms,

These are fundemental rights that belong to everyone, not just Americans. They have natural rights to life liberty and pursuit of happiness. It seems like they are terriosts, so throw them in jail, but give them some type of due process first, ie, lawyer, trial.

_________________"If he isn't the best football player, the best runner, that the Lord has ever made, then the Lord has yet to make one." Wayne Fontes on Barry.

June 9th, 2005, 4:50 pm

m2karateman

RIP Killer

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10408Location: Where ever I'm at now

bsand2053 wrote:

These are fundemental rights that belong to everyone, not just Americans. They have natural rights to life liberty and pursuit of happiness. It seems like they are terriosts, so throw them in jail, but give them some type of due process first, ie, lawyer, trial.

That being the case, let them pursue those rights in their own home countries or have them become citizens. Remember, it is Americans who protect the rights outlined in OUR Constitution, not the citizens of other countries. If they wish to be protected by the umbrella of these freedoms, THEY should take the necessary steps to insure it.

_________________I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.

That being the case, let them pursue those rights in their own home countries or have them become citizens. Remember, it is Americans who protect the rights outlined in OUR Constitution, not the citizens of other countries. If they wish to be protected by the umbrella of these freedoms, THEY should take the necessary steps to insure it.

Yes, but that does not mean we can deny those rights to non-citizens. Since they're natural rights which are given by God, it means that we must afford them to everyone.

_________________"If he isn't the best football player, the best runner, that the Lord has ever made, then the Lord has yet to make one." Wayne Fontes on Barry.

June 9th, 2005, 5:42 pm

m2karateman

RIP Killer

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10408Location: Where ever I'm at now

bsand2053 wrote:

Yes, but that does not mean we can deny those rights to non-citizens. Since they're natural rights which are given by God, it means that we must afford them to everyone.

Excuse me, but the rights in the Constitution are not given by God. The right to free speech, freedom of the press, assembly is given by God? How about the right to bear arms, or the right to vote? Those are all freedoms allowed to us by God?

What you referred to (life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness) are given in the Declaration of Independence.

PREAMBLE
We, the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect Union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

No where in that does it mention other countries that are to be protected by this document. And We, the people are the citizens of the United States. The people who pay taxes and are sworn to defend these rights. We the people does not include illegal aliens or people that are NOT sworn to defend this land or it's people.

This document insures all this for the citizens of this country. Those people who are here and pose a direct threat to any of the afore mentioned who are not citizens do not have a God given, nor Constitutional right to undergo the same judicial processes afforded a rightful citizen and defender of those rights.

If these rights were God given, then why do different countries have different judicial processes? Why, in all likelihood, would an American who was accused of planning terrorism in a Middle Eastern country not face a court, or a jury, but would likelihood face decapitation or a firing squad? We do not HAVE to afford these rights to everyone, but rather, our government currently allows those rights to be afforded to all. I fear, this leniency is a terrible mistake that is too often being exploited.

_________________I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.

June 9th, 2005, 9:15 pm

Yorick

ST Coordinator – Joe Marciano

Joined: March 22nd, 2005, 8:42 pmPosts: 3811

God trumps the constitution? I think even the constitution refers to that principle. The constitution covers US citizens but the founders also drew on something larger, a principle of universal or inalienable rights. That would cover things like smearing 14 year old thieves with poop and letting your dogs bite them. Sure Thomas Jefferson would agree?

_________________Far and away from the sound and the fury. . .

June 9th, 2005, 10:47 pm

m2karateman

RIP Killer

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10408Location: Where ever I'm at now

Yorick wrote:

God trumps the constitution? I think even the constitution refers to that principle. The constitution covers US citizens but the founders also drew on something larger, a principle of universal or inalienable rights. That would cover things like smearing 14 year old thieves with poop and letting your dogs bite them. Sure Thomas Jefferson would agree?

God has given us our rules in the form of the Ten Commandments. Those rules do not include anything contained in the Constitution. What is contained in the Constitution was written for those who come to this country to take advantage of opportunity, not for those who come to take advantage of the establishment. Those who come to lead a better life usually undertake the necessary steps toward becoming a citizen.

_________________I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.

June 10th, 2005, 7:40 am

m2karateman

RIP Killer

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10408Location: Where ever I'm at now

In a recent interview, General Norman Schwartzkopf was asked if he thought there was room for forgiveness toward the people who have harbored and abetted the terrorists who perpetrated the 9/11 attacks on America.

His answer was classic Schwartzkopf.

The General said, " I believe that forgiving them is God's function. OUR job is to arrange the meeting."[/img]

_________________I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.

June 10th, 2005, 7:42 am

Yorick

ST Coordinator – Joe Marciano

Joined: March 22nd, 2005, 8:42 pmPosts: 3811

Sure, my point was that whether someone is covered by the constitution or not is a side issue. There are basic moral laws and universal rights that apply also, to citizens and non-citizens.

_________________Far and away from the sound and the fury. . .

June 10th, 2005, 7:50 am

Pablo

RIP Killer

Joined: August 6th, 2004, 9:21 amPosts: 10064Location: Dallas

m2karateman wrote:

As they are not citizens here, they should NEVER be allowed to have protections under the Constitution. Those basic rights and freedoms should only be afforded to those who were born here or have sworn to protect those freedoms, not some idiot that arrived here in the secret compartment of an oil truck or on a work visa that expired months ago.

I disagree as well. I was not born in this country, nor am I a citizen. I was born in England but have lived in the States 36 years. I have no plans to give up my Brittish citizenship. I am a permanent resident, married to an American, pay taxes just like everyone else, and am passionate about a football team that has averaged 4-wins a year during the last four years.

I am a productive member of society, have never been out of work or collected disability, unemployment, etc... I was educated in the US, well aware of the history and culture here. I even throw one of the biggest 4th of July bashes in Texas. I'm proud to live in the US, but I'm also proud of my Brittish heritage.

I was not born here, nor have I sworn to protect those freedoms (even though I would). To become a citizen, you have to renounce the country of your origin - something I refuse to do.

So Mike, I ask you this, should I not be covered under these basic rights and freedoms?

Dual Citizenship commonly refers to a child of citizens from country 'A' who was born in country 'B'. IE, if Pablo's folks where both British but Pablo was born here. He could elect to be an American or British citizen; or rather his parents would on his behalf and he could change that at age 18 if he wanted to.

June 10th, 2005, 10:27 am

m2karateman

RIP Killer

Joined: October 20th, 2004, 4:16 pmPosts: 10408Location: Where ever I'm at now

Why can't you possess dual citizenship? Many people do. I've never heard that part of becoming a citizen of the United States involves renouncing the country of your origin. If that is the case, it is a mistake for the U.S. to ask people to make that statement. Instead, they should be asked to embrace the American way of life and swear to defend it. No one should be told they must renounce their origins. That's wrong.

You Paul are not an illegal alien either. You are married to an American citizen, which makes you legal. I am referring to illegal aliens, those who don't become useless parts of our society. I had ancestors who came here 'illegally', but did so with the intentions of creating a better life for themselves and their families. Now more and more people come here just to take advantage of the system, or worse, to try and destroy it altogether (re: terrorists). Living in Texas I am sure you have heard of Mexican women crossing illegally to give birth to a child in an American hospital so that the child gets better medical care and then is automotically made a U.S. citizen. Who is paying for that with higher health insurance premiums and higher hospital costs?

It is my firm belief that people moving into the United States with the intention of creating a life here and staying here should become citizens of this country. I don't think they should be forced to renounce their other citizenships or their countries of origin to do that.

I am sorry, but times have changed, and this countries 'open door' policy needs to change with it. The United States needs to have stricter policies on entry of foreigners and the issuing of work visas to them. We also need to immediately remove 'illegal aliens' working in this country. Many of them pay no taxes at all, nor do they pay into social security. Employers of them should be HEAVILY fined and make it clear that their business will be severly hurt by further transgressions.

_________________I will not put on blinders when it comes to our QBs performances.

June 10th, 2005, 10:39 am

TheRealWags

Megatron

Joined: December 31st, 2004, 9:55 amPosts: 12534

m2karateman wrote:

Why can't you possess dual citizenship? Many people do. I've never heard that part of becoming a citizen of the United States involves renouncing the country of your origin. If that is the case, it is a mistake for the U.S. to ask people to make that statement. Instead, they should be asked to embrace the American way of life and swear to defend it. No one should be told they must renounce their origins. That's wrong.

You Paul are not an illegal alien either. You are married to an American citizen, which makes you legal. I am referring to illegal aliens, those who don't become useless parts of our society. I had ancestors who came here 'illegally', but did so with the intentions of creating a better life for themselves and their families. Now more and more people come here just to take advantage of the system, or worse, to try and destroy it altogether (re: terrorists). Living in Texas I am sure you have heard of Mexican women crossing illegally to give birth to a child in an American hospital so that the child gets better medical care and then is automotically made a U.S. citizen. Who is paying for that with higher health insurance premiums and higher hospital costs?

It is my firm belief that people moving into the United States with the intention of creating a life here and staying here should become citizens of this country. I don't think they should be forced to renounce their other citizenships or their countries of origin to do that.

I am sorry, but times have changed, and this countries 'open door' policy needs to change with it. The United States needs to have stricter policies on entry of foreigners and the issuing of work visas to them. We also need to immediately remove 'illegal aliens' working in this country. Many of them pay no taxes at all, nor do they pay into social security. Employers of them should be HEAVILY fined and make it clear that their business will be severly hurt by further transgressions.

Well said Mike

_________________

Quote:

Detroit vs. EverybodyClowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right....