"try to be undistracted continuously throughout the day and the rest of the time then he can guarantee you that within 15 years you will awaken, be fully awakened, be fully realized, there’s no doubt about that, but that means continuous practice, not just once in﻿ a while and then expect something special will happen."

heart wrote:"try to be undistracted continuously throughout the day and the rest of the time then he can guarantee you that within 15 years you will awaken, be fully awakened, be fully realized, there’s no doubt about that, but that means continuous practice, not just once in﻿ a while and then expect something special will happen."

"In the system of the New Schools, there are first of all the four tantras of Kriya Tantra, Charya Tantra, Yoga Tantra, and Anuttara Yoga Tantra. The fourth is divided into Father Anuttara Tantra, Mother Anuttara Tantra and Nondual Anuttara Tantra. This correspond exactly to the structure of the Old School, Nyingma, in that father tantra of Anuttara is Mahayoga, mother tantra is Anu yoga and the nondual tantra is Ati Yoga, [Dzogchen]. However, there are no explicit teachings on Togal in Anuttara. That is the main difference, whereas it is taught that there is no difference whatsoever between "essence Mahamudra" and Dzogchen in meaning - only in terminology."

Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche also always stated Mahamudra and Dzogchen are the same but only different terminology, as I remeber the meetings with Him. What about the III Karmapa Rangjung Dorje, The Initial Master of The Karma Nyinthig. Is He not stated the same?

As I understad, all is about continuous practice, whatever Clear light in Highest Yoga Tantra, Ordinary Mind in Mahamudra or Rigpa in Dzogchen is presented evidently and can be recognized immediately and one will practice with this recognition further.

Mariusz wrote:"In the system of the New Schools, there are first of all the four tantras of Kriya Tantra, Charya Tantra, Yoga Tantra, and Anuttara Yoga Tantra. The fourth is divided into Father Anuttara Tantra, Mother Anuttara Tantra and Nondual Anuttara Tantra. This correspond exactly to the structure of the Old School, Nyingma, in that father tantra of Anuttara is Mahayoga, mother tantra is Anu yoga and the nondual tantra is Ati Yoga, [Dzogchen].

This quite arguable. Chogyal Namkhai Norbu explains that this equation of the three inner tantras with father, mother and non-dual tantra was a political gesture. He definitely does not agree with this sort of statement.

Mariusz wrote:"In the system of the New Schools, there are first of all the four tantras of Kriya Tantra, Charya Tantra, Yoga Tantra, and Anuttara Yoga Tantra. The fourth is divided into Father Anuttara Tantra, Mother Anuttara Tantra and Nondual Anuttara Tantra. This correspond exactly to the structure of the Old School, Nyingma, in that father tantra of Anuttara is Mahayoga, mother tantra is Anu yoga and the nondual tantra is Ati Yoga, [Dzogchen].

This quite arguable. Chogyal Namkhai Norbu explains that this equation of the three inner tantras with father, mother and non-dual tantra was a political gesture. He definitely does not agree with this sort of statement.

The fact is that Longchenpa, etc. all treat HYT as "outer tantra".

N

They are practically different as well. Mother Tantra in the Sarma systems is practiced quite different from Anuyoga in my experience. The most obvious difference is the kyerim approach of the two systems.

Namdrol wrote:This quite arguable. Chogyal Namkhai Norbu explains that this equation of the three inner tantras with father, mother and non-dual tantra was a political gesture. He definitely does not agree with this sort of statement.

The fact is that Longchenpa, etc. all treat HYT as "outer tantra".

N

Longchenpa’s [Great Chariot ] states:Mahayoga, the father tantra, the nature of method [related to] appearance,[is taught] to benefit those whose strongest emotional afflictionis aversion and who are subject to excessive discursiveness.Anuyoga, the mother tantra, the wisdom of the completion phase[related to] the essential reality of emptiness, [is taught] to benefitthose whose strongest emotional affliction is desire and who delightin stillness of mind.Atiyoga, the nature of nonduality, [is taught] to benefit thosewhose strongest emotional affliction is delusion and who are tarnishedby [attachment to] effort.25 The Great Array states:26The generation phase is for minds elevated [with manyconcepts];The completion phase, for minds with attachment [to theexperience of bliss];And the great perfection, for the most secret and supreme.

Furthermore, Longchenpa’sFinding Comfort and Ease in the Nature of Mind states:Mahayoga emphasizes winds and the methods of the generationphase.Anuyoga emphasizes the constituent [of bliss] and the wisdom ofthe completion phase;Atiyoga emphasizes pristine awareness from which nothing isseparate.

The Treasury of Knowledge Book Six, Part Four: Systems of Buddhist Tantra The Indestructible Way of Secret Mantra. page 308

Namdrol was the person that first piqued my interest in Dzogchen via E-Sangha. Tulku Urgyen was the great being that sealed it for me as a practice I wanted to devote myself to, and his sons have been kind enough to teach it to me.

He was an incredible being and I wish I'd met him in person. But we have his sons who now spread Dzogchen and Mahamudra in their own unique ways, but with a massive degree of influence from Tulku Urgyen's style. Then there's his incredible array of friends, students and teachers such as Dilgo Khyenste Rinpoche and Erik Kunsang.

From that interview, the most important part for me is the advice to practice ALL THE TIME.

Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal

Mariusz wrote:"In the system of the New Schools, there are first of all the four tantras of Kriya Tantra, Charya Tantra, Yoga Tantra, and Anuttara Yoga Tantra. The fourth is divided into Father Anuttara Tantra, Mother Anuttara Tantra and Nondual Anuttara Tantra. This correspond exactly to the structure of the Old School, Nyingma, in that father tantra of Anuttara is Mahayoga, mother tantra is Anu yoga and the nondual tantra is Ati Yoga, [Dzogchen].

This quite arguable. Chogyal Namkhai Norbu explains that this equation of the three inner tantras with father, mother and non-dual tantra was a political gesture. He definitely does not agree with this sort of statement.

The fact is that Longchenpa, etc. all treat HYT as "outer tantra".

N

Well Tulku Urgyen wouldn't get along with a lot of things ChNN says. Still, the got along very fine and ChNN used to visit Tulku Urgyen when he was in Kathmandu. Interesting, no?

/magnus

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

Namdrol was the person that first piqued my interest in Dzogchen via E-Sangha. Tulku Urgyen was the great being that sealed it for me as a practice I wanted to devote myself to, and his sons have been kind enough to teach it to me.

He was an incredible being and I wish I'd met him in person. But we have his sons who now spread Dzogchen and Mahamudra in their own unique ways, but with a massive degree of influence from Tulku Urgyen's style. Then there's his incredible array of friends, students and teachers such as Dilgo Khyenste Rinpoche and Erik Kunsang.

From that interview, the most important part for me is the advice to practice ALL THE TIME.

Namdrol was the person that first piqued my interest in Dzogchen via E-Sangha. Tulku Urgyen was the great being that sealed it for me as a practice I wanted to devote myself to, and his sons have been kind enough to teach it to me.

He was an incredible being and I wish I'd met him in person. But we have his sons who now spread Dzogchen and Mahamudra in their own unique ways, but with a massive degree of influence from Tulku Urgyen's style. Then there's his incredible array of friends, students and teachers such as Dilgo Khyenste Rinpoche and Erik Kunsang.

From that interview, the most important part for me is the advice to practice ALL THE TIME.

Namdrol wrote:The fact is that Longchenpa, etc. all treat HYT as "outer tantra".

N

This is not really true. Longchempa said for Sarma any empowerment that contains the full 4 empowerments is HYT as opposed to lower tantra which only has 1 or 2 empowerments I think. Also that if the deity is practiced in yabyum it is HYT solo deities are lower tantra. Also I think that maybe in Sakya and Gelugpa they don't accept the pointing out of the "4rth empowerment" so their understanding of it may be different than the Kagyu. But I am not sure on that.

As Kyabje Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche used to say he made many mistakes and often the Karmapa would correct him before acting or was proven right if he had disagreed and it was too late after the fact. Everything is well. We might go through nervous periods from time to time but should publicly keep major samayas as they can't be undone later when regretful, specially with respect to major living tertons sent by Guru Rinpoche.

Namdrol wrote:The fact is that Longchenpa, etc. all treat HYT as "outer tantra".

N

This is not really true. Longchempa said for Sarma any empowerment that contains the full 4 empowerments is HYT as opposed to lower tantra which only has 1 or 2 empowerments I think. Also that if the deity is practiced in yabyum it is HYT solo deities are lower tantra. Also I think that maybe in Sakya and Gelugpa they don't accept the pointing out of the "4rth empowerment" so their understanding of it may be different than the Kagyu. But I am not sure on that.

Rime Initiator Kongtrul the Great wrote in The Treasury of Knowledge Book Six, Part Four: Systems of Buddhist Tantra The Indestructible Way of Secret Mantra. page 338

In particular, in accordance with the [atiyoga] division of esoteric instructions,there are four initiations as stated in the Naturally Present Perfection:The elaborate, unelaborate,The very unelaborate, and utterly unelaborate:Four initiations in four aspectsEffect the ripening of the fortunate.The four initiations, in sequence, purify the obscurations of body, speech,and mind, and the obscurations to omniscience; and establish the potenciesfor awakened body, speech, and mind, and naturally present luminous clarity.They empower [the student] in the four practices: the phase of generation,meditation on inner heat, and meditation on the union of bliss andemptiness (through which are realized the pristine awareness of primordialpurity), and the practice to directly experience the state of spontaneousperfection, respectively.These initiations represent four divisions within the higher initiation[the fourth]. Hence, although in number they are equal to the commoninitiations of highest yoga tantra, one should understand that their meaningis different.

More on analogies between Dzogchen of 9 yanas and HYT. As for my later post the note 25 of the book said:

Atiyoga is taught to practitioners of mahayoga and anuyoga who are attached toeffort and striving toward a goal; it is the way to self-liberate that attachment.What is set forth in this citation is not a direct relationship between mahayoga,anuyoga, and atiyoga and the mother tantra, father tantra, and nondual tantra of thenew schools but is instead a simple analogy: Just as father tantra emphasizes the phase ofgeneration, and mother tantra, the phase of completion, mahayoga emphasizes the phaseof generation, anuyoga, the phase of completion, and so on.

I have never found such thing as "Dzogchen outside 9 yanas". All teachings of Buddhism are included in 9 yanas. For me all teachings of Buddhism should be taken as a whole.

Mariusz wrote:More on analogies between Dzogchen of 9 yanas and HYT. As for my later post the note 25 of the book said:

Atiyoga is taught to practitioners of mahayoga and anuyoga who are attached toeffort and striving toward a goal; it is the way to self-liberate that attachment.What is set forth in this citation is not a direct relationship between mahayoga,anuyoga, and atiyoga and the mother tantra, father tantra, and nondual tantra of thenew schools but is instead a simple analogy: Just as father tantra emphasizes the phase ofgeneration, and mother tantra, the phase of completion, mahayoga emphasizes the phaseof generation, anuyoga, the phase of completion, and so on.

I have never found such thing as "Dzogchen outside 9 yanas". All teachings of Buddhism are included in 9 yanas. For me all teachings of Buddhism should be taken as a whole.

Then you will be awfully surprised when you read the texts I have read.