everything wrote:supposedly taijiquan has 8 main "energies" and 5 "steppings". the style is essentially one style (vs. say the very different movement of xingyiquan or baguazhang). people never seem to agree on any techniques (e.g., see long thread here on fist under elbow LOL).

If taiji is about the 8 main energies and the taiji teacher (Wei Lei) is a "master," should he not be able to apply these energies in a real fight? It's IMA, not IA. Who can apply these energies (rollback and press) better in a real fight, Wei or the boxer in the GIF?

I have heard some tai chi people say something like, they have yin and yang in their hands or apply more than one energy at the point of contact. So, then at that point it's no longer about the technique, as much as it's about applying the energies. “You must be shapeless, formless, like water. . . . Become like water my friend."

At 6:00, “At this point, tai chi people start saying, ”Oh, that’s not tai chi anymore.' So, if you’ve trying to make the fight look like the form, I think you’ve missed the point. The form is teaching you a certain feeling . . . and then you have to learn how to use that energy within the chaos of the fight . . . "

Published on May 5, 2017After this weeks defeat of a tai chi master by an MMA fighter in China, I thought I would offer my opinion- as somebody who has trained both arts to a high level:

marvin8 wrote:Understood. If I misunderstood your post or missed some of your points, I apologize.

Hey Marvin,All is good. I wasn’t offended. I was trying to be clear on what I was responding to.

marvin8 wrote:No. I want to get anyone's opinion on using tai chi's rollback and press, in relation to the few second gif I posted.

This question wasn’t in your 1st post about shoulder roll and Rollback similarities. I felt a need to be clear.Sometimes when I’m trying to write for clarity I seem to be even more unclear.

marvin8 wrote:

Trip wrote:I didn't use the words "catching and breaking."

You used the words "catching" and "break" here:

Trip wrote:Catching the jab or the right hand that’s on the way in is similar. It’s great for defense.And then, quickly countering to make them pay for that miss. Love it!

Trip wrote:So, on the way in you trouble them by going after the elbow to break it, stress it, etc.or Tugging or Nudging, or snatching them out of the rear leg. (making the rear foot light or come off the ground).

Those words in this are from two different paragraphs. The first paragraph was about how the Mayweather’s use Shoulder Roll.The second paragraph was about rollback is different. They were not meant to be put together in the way you’re using them. ...Anyway, just saw the Canelo Chavez fight. HMMM...I don’t know...Weird.Especially that Triple G video stuff at the end. So staged.But, I'm glad they're finally fighting.

Last edited by Trip on Sun May 07, 2017 4:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

marvin8 wrote:Understood. If I misunderstood your post or missed some of your points, I apologize.

Hey Marvin,All is good. I wasn’t offended. I was trying to be clear on what I was responding to.

marvin8 wrote:No. I want to get anyone's opinion on using tai chi's rollback and press, in relation to the few second gif I posted.

This question wasn’t in your 1st post about shoulder roll and Rollback similarities. I felt a need to be clear.Sometimes when I’m trying to write for clarity I seem to be even more unclear.

marvin8 wrote:

Trip wrote:I didn't use the words "catching and breaking."

You used the words "catching" and "break" here:

Trip wrote:Catching the jab or the right hand that’s on the way in is similar. It’s great for defense.And then, quickly countering to make them pay for that miss. Love it!

Trip wrote:So, on the way in you trouble them by going after the elbow to break it, stress it, etc.or Tugging or Nudging, or snatching them out of the rear leg. (making the rear foot light or come off the ground).

Those words in this are from two different paragraphs. The first paragraph was about how the Mayweather’s use Shoulder Roll.The second paragraph was about rollback is different. They were not meant to be put together in the way you’re using them. ...Anyway, just saw the Canelo Chavez fight. HMMM...I don’t know...Weird.Especially that Triple G video stuff at the end. So staged.But, I'm glad they're finally fighting.

I wasn't inferring you were offended, I didn't know at that point.

I loosely used the word "catching" to mean your words "going after." To make it clear, I will ask with your exact words. This is what your wrote:

One difference with rollback is -- defending and attacking the incoming with one motion.You’re trying to give them a little (or lot) of trouble on the way in and also countering on the way out.

So, on the way in you trouble them by going after the elbow to break it, stress it, etc.or Tugging or Nudging, or snatching them out of the rear leg. (making the rear foot light or come off the ground).

How do you "going after the elbow to break it, stress it, etc." or " Tugging or Nudging, or snatching them out of the rear leg," as the opponent is "on the way in," throwing multiple punches in a matter of 1 second, as in the GIF.

How do you " Tugging or Nudging, or snatching them out of the rear leg," when a decent boxer will retract his punch and remain balanced, if he is fundamentally sound? As this is "One difference with rollback," performed by a tai chi player.

In the clip, the opponent was throwing jab, right hand, left hook. The defender countered, in between the three punches, before the left hook landed. All of this happened within 1.5 seconds.

This is what I was wondering, when you made the statement, not to debate.

You have brought up that I am not using your words and taking your words out of context. So, I am asking again, because I don't want you to think I was trying to twist your words.

Last edited by marvin8 on Sun May 07, 2017 1:09 pm, edited 3 times in total.

I don't know if the TaiJi guy was a fraud or legit. I also don't think it would make a difference. Obviously the guy had no experience sparring or fighting. This is the same thing that'd happen to anyone who doesn't spar.

Also it's not fair to compare IMA/TMA to MMA. The level of conditioning and sparring is too different.

If you're training for self defense you don't need to train to take out professional MMA fighters. But you should learn how to use your techniques against a resisting opponent. Something you could acquire by sparring.

amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science

There are people who believe sparing is detrimental to unconscious reactionJust by playing the game of sparing you loose the act of spontaneous reactionMy work as a longshoreman/wharfie put me in a number of life and death situationsSeveral times I reacted without thought and it saved my life or at least avoided serious injuryA simple one was a large hook on a crane (it weighed enough that it took several strong men to lift it up) broke loose from its load and swung at the back of my headI don't know why I just stepped aside brushing it with my hand as it came past It returned quickly and I threw a couple of punches in its direction as it went byWheatbix mick a hard man from the London docks who went into one of londons hardest borstles at 17 looked at me in suprisedHe saidYou didn't even see that but you stepped asideI saidI knowFor the rest of the shift my adrenalin was runningThat is real tai chi self defenceI have several stories like that,all true with witnesses

"It was already late. Night stood murkily over people, and no one else pronounced words; all that could be heard was a dog barking in some alien village---just as in olden times, as if it existed in a constant eternity." Andrey Platonov

After brutally dispatching Wei, Xu told the onlookers that the fight wasn’t competitive and that Tai Chi was a ‘sham.’ According to ejinisght this prompted a number of Tai Chi masters to circle Xu and challenge him to a rematch. Reportedly, Xu ended up calling police after the Tai Chi proponents continued to argue with him for around half an hour. Later Xu turned to Chinese social media platform Weibo to double-down on his criticism of Tai Chi, stating that traditional martial arts styles were ‘a lie’ and that they had no use in actual combat or self defense.

The Straits Times states that Xu also posted an open challenge to martial artists to prove him wrong. On Weibo, Xu stated that he would take on any and all traditional martial artists in a no rules contest (including kicks to the groin and eye pokes). Xu also said he would pay 1.2 million yuan ($174,000) to anyone who beats him.

In his social media storm Xu, also challenged two-time Olympic champion boxer Zou Shiming. Zou’s agents told the Straits Times that the 35-year-old flyweight would not be responding to the challenge, given that Zou and Xu are “not on the same level.” On Weibo, Xu also challenged one of the bodyguards of Jack Ma, the billionaire owner of e-commerce site Alibaba. Ma responded to Xu’s challenge on Weibo stating - according to ejinsight - that, “Martial arts should be seen as something fun and that debate on various styles is pointless.”

Also according to ejinsight, Xu’s comments on traditional martial arts has enraged Chinese ‘wulin’ (a collective term for the Chinese martial arts community). The wulin is reported to be angered by Xu’s ‘arrogance’ and his debasing of the revered practice of Tai Chi.

Wei also made comments after fight, stating that the only reason he lost to Xu was because he was showing mercy and refraining from using his ‘internal strength.’ Wei reportedly said he feared Xu would be killed, had he used his full array of skills.

The Chinese Wushu Association, which promotes many martial arts in China and beyond, has condemned the fight between Xu and Wei, claiming it went against the principles of martial arts. Despite their condemnation, a number of traditional martial artists are eager to accept Xu’s challenge.

Straits Times reports that He Xi Rui, head of the Wudang Tai Chi sect, was one of the first to respond to Xu’s challenge. Using Weibo Xu wrote, “You are welcome to visit the Wudang Mountains to witness real martial arts.”

Lu Xing, another Tai Chi master - this time from the ‘Pushing Hands’ school in Sichuan Province - also accepted the challenge. Lu told Chengdu Business News that he’ll likely beat Xu thanks to his ‘iron fist’ which took more than twenty years to develop.

Yi Long, who has been marketed as ‘China’s strongest Shaolin monk’ also took to Weibo to accept Xu’s challenge. A fight with Xu would be familiar territory for Yi, who has previously tested his Kung Fu style boxing against western and Thai-style fighters.

marvin8 wrote:You have brought up that I am not using your words and taking your words out of context. So, I am asking again, because I don't want you to think I was trying to twist your words.

I appreciate your effort of not trying to twist my words. But, I've responded to you. Several times with the same thing.

You have to completely separate my answer to the question of "what is the difference of Shoulder Roll and Rollback?" from your later hypothetical questions.

You keep tying my earlier answer about “difference” to another hypothetical question that I did not choose to answer.Mixing that earlier answer to a question it was not intended for allows for misunderstandings.That matters greatly to me.“Miss by an inch, lose by a mile.”

The reason I never intended to answer your hypothetical question-- in words on a page is, it can lead to the rabbit hole of hypothetical one-upmanship. “Well if you did this, I’d do this.” “Really? Well…I’d do this then.” And etc., etc.

I believe--in order to properly answer your theoretical questions about replying to a 3 punch combo--that with words alone I cannot answer it. My words have to be tied to real actions that can be personally felt by you.

Internet posts and books and videos can be great supplemental learning tools—However, as of yet, I do not think they supply the full answer. The kind of answer you would get from feeling a live teaching response to your 3 punch combo.

For instance: The catching of all 3 punches is key to learning how to defend a 3 punch combo using the shoulder roll. Look how many times Mayweather has to tell this kid just to do one catch and roll. https://youtu.be/B94a6QrNerg?t=4m19s

And even when the kid kinda does what Mayweather asks, he still didn’t fully understand. And, that’s live person to person transmission. Imagine how that would be with words on a page.

That kid might read words on a page and think “oh, I get it. I understand shoulder roll.” No, he doesn’t. He will not truly get it until learns from a competent teacher and hours of practice until he can do it countless times under pressure from a live opponent.

**********But, I can offer a way for you to maybe see, or to possibly get an idea of how RollBack could have been used in a real fight.

This is in no way a perfect illustration of Rollback.or where it could be used.

I only offer it because you badgered the shit out of me.

We should see from this still that the Taiji Guy is not moving with the direction & time with Xu’s Left punch. Before Xu's left punch lands on his shoulder Taiji Guy's left shoulder should be retreat.His right shoulder should be advanced.

That would have lined-up his body and hands with the direction of the punch.Giving Taiji Guy position to have more options to perform RollBack, (or whatever). I.e., the possibility of one hand at Xu's wrist, the other at his elbow. The rotation, the touching done all as one move, one motion.

So, for me, his timing is way late & his direction is way off.There’s also other options he could do from the position he is in, in that picture, but I don’t want to waste page space to point them all out.

You can really see his timing off in the gif above. Xu’s probes with his left. Taiji guy doesn’t move. In fact, Xu's left hand lands on Taiji Guy's arm before he reacts to it. That’s late.I’d prefer him to react in that brief gap before Xu’s feet land on the ground and before Xu's left hand touches his arm.

If he had moved in proper time with Xu’s left, there were options there....

Here’s where a nudge could have helped Taiji Guy.focus on Xu's right punch.If Taiji Guy nudges Xu’s right shoulder or elbow in the direction of momentum that the 2nd punch is traveling, Xu would need extra steps to stay balanced.

He would end up with extra steps like the boxer in the GIF below.

At the very least, it would have given Taiji Guy a window of opportunity to circle behind, do another move, or increase the distance between them.

I did not say this is a fight ender. It is Just an example of where a person could have applied one option (nudge) within Rollback.

....................

Here is a person with better timing and really good skillat following (and nudging) his opponents direction of momentum. And, then using the opponents momentum to his advantage.

At the start of the fight the guy with the helmet tries to kick the old man. Notice the old man changes position in that brief gap before the kick lands. And his left hand nudges the kickers shoulder.He does it effectively 3 times.Each time Helmet guy starts an attack, the Old Man finishes it. By giving him, trouble in the direction of the intended attack.

☮☮☮

Last edited by Trip on Sun Jul 02, 2017 1:47 am, edited 5 times in total.

At the start of the fight the guy with the helmet tries to kick the old man. Notice the old man changes position in that brief gap before the kick lands. And his left hand nudes the kickers shoulder.He does it effectively 3 times.Each time Helmet guy starts an attack the Old Man finishes gives him trouble in the direction of the intended attack.

I will take a closer look at your post, when I get more time. Thanks.

I brightened the Tai Chi Old Man original video in an attempt to make it more clear:

Interesting to see the angle where you see Xu miss. Crappy TC guy did well there for a second. If he knew better/ was better that was his moment to luanch a counter and hurt him.

That should be standard with available training methods.. Like say padwork, sparring drills etc. Oh well.

Last edited by cloudz on Mon May 08, 2017 2:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

The old man calmly said: “Among the mighty are those who are mightier. In martial arts, no one presumes to praise his own ability. But because you are young, you don't know the scale of the world, and are unaware of how ridiculous you are. Why be upset?”

The thing that screams out to me from the slowed-down GIF is that Master Thunderpants has legs like planks of wood - he can hardly move if he stands like that. And hence his footwork let him down. All the rest of it is immaterial (timing, distance, an actual guard) if you can't move.