Just some general ideas I've read in old posts. I haven't heard too many lately though.

-NP (styled) pizzas can't be made in the home oven.-00 ONLY works at high temps and a sub 2 minute bake.-caputo 00 flour is the best flour for making pizza. -VPN method is the only way for making true NP pies-spiral mixers and wfos are required to make great pizza. (I don't think I've heard anyone come out and say this but I get the feeling this is the general sentiment). -HG flour makes chewy products

I'd add these to this list of things I've read on this forum more than once that I personally disagree with:- KAAP and KABF are garbage- Cold fermentation makes a better pizza- The lust for HG flour

scott123

I'd add these to this list of things I've read on this forum more than once that I personally disagree with:- KAAP and KABF are garbage

The 'experts' say this? Really? I thought is was just me

Seriously, though, while I have no specific axe to grind with Fibrament, I've got a chip on my shoulder the size of Mount Rushmore when it comes to KA. About a decade ago, KA completely robbed me of 2 years of my pizzamaking life (by selling gummy inferior bread flour) and I will never forgive them for it. I've seen the pizzas people make with KA now and it's obvious that it's a different, quality product, but... out of every KA pizza I've ever seen (and I've seen hundreds), there is a distinct trend towards less oven spring, especially with amateur bakers. More importantly, I've never seen a KA pizza that had a particular trait that couldn't be recreated with traditional pizzeria flour. Peter talks a lot about KA's 'tight specifications' and 'careful wheat selection,' but I sincerely believe that KA is no superior to any of the better pro flours and thus does absolutely nothing to deserve the higher price. So maybe 'garbage' might be too strong of a word. A better description might be 'Larger learning curve flour sold by price gouging bastards.' How's that?

Craig, it may require some slight tweaks in hydration, but if Gold Medal AP flour (or Heckers, if you can get it) can't perform as well as KAAP, I'll eat my hat

I have always viewed the "tight specs" commentary as serving two purposes. The first has to do with the fact that King Arthur does not mill its own flours. So, really the only control it has over its millers is to specify the specs that are to be followed to insure as much as possible a consistent product. The second purpose is marketing and allows King Arthur to boast about its tight specs (as well as being unbleached and unbromated). I once spoke with a technical person at Bay State Milling who at the time was one of the millers for King Arthur. He mentioned the tight specs that they had to follow but he then went on to say what a great marketer King Arthur was. It was almost like he was in awe of King Arthur's marketing prowess.

I like the King Arthur flours personally and buy them despite the higher price. Where I live, the KAAP and KABF are sold at the same price, so I usually get the KABF for most of my doughs. I am not a fan of the high prices charged for the KASL and many of their other specialty flours that, for the quantities I would want to use, must be purchased directly from KA, and with stiff shipping charges tacked on to boot.

...for a whole two hours. I watched the orientation and then walked out. As I sat there watching the video, all I could say to myself was "THIS is how corporations defile art. This is how big business chews up and spits out culture."

It's hard not to defile art when your goal is to make as much money and have as many "restaurants" as possible. Anytime food is turned into a commodity, quality goes to crap.

scott123

Peter, I'm in 'awe' of King Arthur's marketing prowess. I'm actually a little bit more in awe because of my belief that they're selling regular flour at upscale flour prices while still completely dominating the home baker market. This isn't just a naked emperor, but an emperor, naked, running down the street and screaming at the top of his lungs.

I think Reinhart played a big part in this, but as far as 99.9% of home bread bakers go, the concept of buying anything other than KABF is ridiculous.

Scott, I picked out Heckers and Gold Medal not because they're intrinsically better or worse than other AP flours, just because they're the first thing that popped into my head. I see AP in almost the same way that I see HG. It's all pretty much the same (within each respective protein point). The one exception would be Walmart AP, and I say this not from direct experience, but because almost every single walmart product I've ever purchased has been defective in some manner. I'm actually using up some AT right now by blending it with WM, and it's been treating me very well, but I still reserve the right to trust Walmart about as far as I can throw them.

To be fair, the King Arthur KAAP and KABF have higher protein contents than most competitive brands, at least the ones that I can find on the supermarket shelves of the stores where I shop. Whether the higher protein content of those flours justifies their higher price is hard to say. That is a question that each user has to answer.

Craig, I do not own or have had any experience with Fibrament. As such, I have no opinions or any issues with Fibrament myself. Personally, if I had one I would make the most of it. I'm not surprised to hear that you use one with great results. I think your pies look great and the fact that you can do it with AP flour speak even more to your skills. Not that AP flour is inferior to caputo 00, but that is the general assumption when it comes to NP pies. Personally, I get a kick out proving the experts wrong or doing things with "lesser" ingredients or not having the best of equipment. I like Don's take that he posted on another thread. Make due with what you have.

Also just b/c a certain stone material is less thermally conductive, doesn't necessarily equate to poorer results. We know that oven spring is dependant on many other factors, and that the conductivity of the stone is just one of those. Depending on how it is used, how the dough is made, how the dough is baked also makes a difference. And same for the flours. Okay so some flours are easier to work with or some ppl have preferences to some flours over others. I'd rather have mediocre (if it is indeed so) than none at all.

I must chime in here regarding a slow proof/rise. With 10 years experience in home bread baking, the bread turns out slightly tastier with a slow rise and proof. In that fashion, the enzymes have more time to produce sugars and other flavors that contribute to the bread's overall flavor. As to pizza dough, my journey is just beginning.

In making my first pizza on my new Fibrament, I got a great spring with big holes in the crust. IMHO what can contribute to a good spring is surface tension of the dough combined with perhaps a higher hydration. Dunno' if the same applies to pizza dough.

Cr@p, I hope I didn't make a mistake by purchasing a Fibrament (thanks, guys!) after my cordierite stone from Williams Sonoma (10 years of use) finally gave up the ghost. But I'll find out after baking a loaf of bread on it for the first time next week.

Oh, and also, I notice a difference in my crumb's quality when switching from KA AP flour to KA Organic AP flour. The former clocks in at 11.7% protein and the latter 11.5%, respectively. And if I consumed flour quickly enough, I'd purchase 50# bags of in from Weisenberger Mills of Kentucky. But be forewarned that with Weisenberger's flours, you'll need to add diastatic malt (most commercial flours have this already added to them) to get a rise that proceeds at a standard - not slow - rate.

Just some general ideas I've read in old posts. I haven't heard too many lately though.

-NP (styled) pizzas can't be made in the home oven.-00 ONLY works at high temps and a sub 2 minute bake.-caputo 00 flour is the best flour for making pizza. -VPN method is the only way for making true NP pies-spiral mixers and wfos are required to make great pizza. (I don't think I've heard anyone come out and say this but I get the feeling this is the general sentiment). -HG flour makes chewy products

It's not that I completely disagree and I can definitely see where and how some ideas get propagated. I just don't completely agree either. My point was really more or less, that we can all learn from eachother even if we don't agree on everything.

Chau

Hey, I definitely don't consider myself an expert, just a pizza obsessed experimenter like all of us, but I just read this and realized that some of the basis for these comments might be coming from stuff I have posted. I just wanted to clarify the two that might have come from me.

I just did a search to make sure I never said this, and I didn't (lucky!). I do think that caputo pizzeria flour works best at under 2 min, and I have been quite vocal about that (would never use the "only" word, though). It stemmed from years of being on this forum seeing newcomers to the forum paying crazy shipping prices thinking they were going to make a pizza like BillSFNM or Marco in their home oven. If I make pizzas above 2 min with caputo the dough doesn't really brown as much as I would like, and if I do take it to the point where it looks right to me (some char) it tends to get tough.

I have never been a huge fan of high gluten flour because it sits heavy on the stomach (taught by marco and I do notice it!) and because unbromated high gluten flour can tend to toughen more than a bread or all purpose flour. Its subtle, but I do notice that it makes the pizza a bit tougher, especially after it has been sitting. Right out of the oven its not that noticeable. Bromate counteracts this toughness, so I have no problem with bromated high gluten flours. Chau, you have never noticed the extra toughness after cooling when comparing say, KASL and KAAP? for me KAAP is more tender and light in comparson.

« Last Edit: April 22, 2011, 12:17:06 PM by scott r »

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scott123

I just did a search to make sure I never said this, and I didn't (lucky!). I do think that caputo pizzeria flour works best at under 2 min, and I have been quite vocal about that (would never use the "only" word, though). It stemmed from years of being on this forum seeing newcomers to the forum paying crazy shipping prices thinking they were going to make a pizza like BillSFNM or Marco in their home oven.

I don't think I've said this either, but I have thought it Protein quantities play a small role but, to me, it all boils down to malt/sugar. Malted flours burn in fast bakes and unmalted flours don't brown correctly in long bakes. With enough work, I'm sure one could keep a malted flour from burning at a high temp, but why not make life easier and use the right tool for the job?

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I have never been a huge fan of high gluten flour because it sits heavy on the stomach (taught by marco and I do notice it!)

When I joined this forum I had already figured quite a lot out about pizza, but I was entirely clueless about digestibility. Everything I know about digestibility I learned here.

HG flour can sit heavy, but that's only with shorter fermentation times. I look at DiFara's notoriously underfermented crust and my stomach hurts As you extend the fermentation, the digestibility improves exponentially. The trick is to ferment the dough long enough so that the digestibility is high, but not so long that the protein is damaged and can not provide enough support for good oven spring.

The trick is to ferment the dough long enough so that the digestibility is high, but not so long that the protein is damaged and can not provide enough support for good oven spring.

Amen. As well, most HG flours are made with hard spring wheat, which is not as strong as winter wheat. The HG needs more attention in the hydration and mixing stages. If you want a super chewy crust, HG is the way to go - but that is not to say you can't make some amazing light and airy doughs with it. Chau gets excellent results in that area. It just takes a lot more time and energy.

Scott & Scott, when I rattled that list off the top of my head, I didn't have any specific people in mind. That was just some stuff I remembered reading here and there. Also I may have embelished some of those a bit.

I know that it is a common belief that 00 won't work at lower temps or should I say won't work as well. Right now I have excellent results at lower temps (3-4m bake times) using a blend of 75/25 00/hg but let's see what I get at higher temps. Maybe it will be even better. This is why I was being ambiguous and saying that I don't agree but don't necessarily disagree either.

As far as digestibility and HG flour goes, it's just as others mentioned. Depends on length of fermentation and extent of fermentation. The shortest time that I have been able to make digestible pies using HG flour is around 12 hours fermentation at room temps. Of course a 24 hour or overnight cold fermentation will help digestibility with any flour.

I recently ate at Nello's in Az. Their deep dish pie is made with HG flour I was told. I asked after eating an exceedingly soft and tender crumb. It was actually lighter than Bianco's crumb, so I was surprise that it was HG flour. But it sat like a ton bricks in my gut all night. I wasn't even hungry for breakfast the next morning. I posted about this in the Nello's Restaurant review thread.

Bianco's crumb is also exceedingly tender and he told me he uses BF with a bit of HG flour mixed in. So HG products don't have to be chewy at all if done properly (meaning the gluten hasn't been overworked).

John my experience with HG flour has just been the opposite. I have experimented with it a lot over the past year and a half and I find it consistenty easiest to work with. It develops gluten just by sitting and requires very little effort in kneading. It gives a consistent puffy aerated rim everytime. It takes me less time and effort to work with compared to 00. And I'm pretty sure it's not b/c I have had more practice or am more familiar with it.

Lower protein flours are exceedingly more difficult to build the proper amount of gluten, especially if it is a lower protein flour that is also highly hydrated. Talk about making it hard on yourself. BUT I keep at it b/c when done right it provides the best results for me so far. And what I mean by best is a soft light crumb with still a bit of a crispy rim. A balance between the 2 universes.

Here's a shoot out between high hydration HG and 00 blended doughs. At their very best, the 00 was better.

I can make soft crumbs with soft rims any day with any flour.That is easy to do and takes less effort on my part.

Here are a few examples of exceedingly light and airy crumbs using a HG flour that were not chewy. When the hydration is jacked up high on HG flours, the crumb can be exceedingly soft and moist IF you haven't overwork the gluten. Easier to do than a lower protein flour b/c the extra gluten aids in tenting up the gas bubbles to produce very airy crumbs. It's actually much harder to make an open airy moist crumb structure with a lower protein flour like caputo pizzeria flour. You run the risk of overmixing it trying to develop the gluten. Finding that happy balance between open, airy, moist crumb with a light crispy shell is a lot harder for me with 00 than HG flours.

John my experience with HG flour has just been the opposite. I have experimented with it a lot over the past year and a half and I find it consistenty easiest to work with. It develops gluten just by sitting and requires very little effort in kneading. It gives a consistent puffy aerated rim everytime. It takes me less time and effort to work with compared to 00. And I'm pretty sure it's not b/c I have had more practice or am more familiar with it.

Chau - What HG flour are you using? Is it bromated?

I probably should not be commenting on HG anyway, as I only have a limited amount of experience with it. The ones I have used were hard spring wheat and organic, and I found that they developed gluten only after extended mixing. But that could be the flour, or it could be my technique. Also I have never used HG flour without at least 3% oil.

The Caputo 00, for me, develops to the improved stage after 2 stretch and fold sessions - no mixer involved. It may be the altitude difference, or other factors. Not sure though.

I will say though, Chau, that I defer to your experience here. Thanks for the detailed post, lots of great info in there.

John, I mainly use Sam's Club HG bleach and bromated flour, but have used All Trumps (bromated) as well as the HG flour from Sunflower Market (which I believe is non bromated).

Because the common misconception/assumption that HG flour requires more kneading or kneading by machine, if the hydration isn't high enough and it is machine kneaded, it can be fairly easy to overknead and overwork the gluten thus getting an overly chewy product. HG flours by nature will technically give more chew, but it doesn't have to be much more.

Here's a unscientifc test to do to compare gluten development in HG flours versus a lower protein flour like AP or caputo 00. Mix up by hand a mixture of flour and water only so that both samples have a similar consistency. For me, I use a hydration of 66% 00, 68% AP, and 72% HG. Only use 00 or AP against HG. You may have to lower your hydration levels to match your climate. I live in the desert so my hydration levels will seem too high. For sea level, I would lower those numbers by about 4% (this is just a guestimate).

Now mix the flour and water by hand only until you get an fairly even mixture. Should be around or under 1min. I would use around a 400gm sample for ease of kneading. Allow both mixtures to autolyse for 30m or so and then hand knead and note how long it takes for the dough to have the strength to retain it's ball shape or come together. At 1 minute intervals, you can pull on the dough to assess for strength or lack of it. Don't forget to note the time and compare. As a separate test, you can also hand knead to window pane. The HG should window pane much sooner.