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QUOTE (marney1 @ Oct 9 2009, 08:09 AM)

QUOTE (Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester @ Oct 9 2009, 03:45 AM)

Yeah, that's more a reason to be suspicious of absolutely everything in the world than the vaccine specifically. Surely?

Having some suspicion about certain things that could affect your health isn't a bad thing.

Education and targetted scepticism always beat sensational claims.

Look at MMR -- there is no evidence that it "causes" autism: the studies which suggested it did were widely discreditted. Reliable, strong randomised trials proving otherwise number in the scores and a high profile trial rules unequivocally in the vaccine's favour.* But as a result of the bad publicity from Wakefield et al. (Lancet 1998), rates of measles went up 2000% in England and Wales between 1997 and 2004. Had the NHS yielded to media pressure and withdrawn the vaccine, one of the only true "miracle cures" in the world would be gone, and measles and rubella especially could continue to kill hundreds a year in the UK as it did before the vaccine was introduced.

I would rather know all kinds about the epidemiology of a vaccine before I go shouting about it to anyone who'll listen.

*Notably, it's the same preservative in question here (thiomersal) to which the controversy was attached when taken in tandem with the MMR. Because of the importance of the MMR scare, this mercury-containing compound is one of the most robustly tested compounds in pharmacology, and is still widely used.

I'm more then a little nervous about randomly sticking myself with government drugs, given their track record. I'll wait and see how the first wave fares the volley before considering when and if I get mine.

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QUOTE (Qdeathstar @ Mar 13 2009, 01:45 AM)

The reason is that when heartless says something stupid, he really means it and believes it.

“They refer to me as an uneducated barbarian. Yes, we are barbarians. We want to be barbarians, it is an honored title to us. We shall rejuvenate the world. This world is near its end.”

Yeah, that's more a reason to be suspicious of absolutely everything in the world than the vaccine specifically. Surely?

Having some suspicion about certain things that could affect your health isn't a bad thing.

Education and targetted scepticism always beat sensational claims.

Look at MMR -- there is no evidence that it "causes" autism: the studies which suggested it did were widely discreditted. Reliable, strong randomised trials proving otherwise number in the scores and a high profile trial rules unequivocally in the vaccine's favour.* But as a result of the bad publicity from Wakefield et al. (Lancet 1998), rates of measles went up 2000% in England and Wales between 1997 and 2004. Had the NHS yielded to media pressure and withdrawn the vaccine, one of the only true "miracle cures" in the world would be gone, and measles and rubella especially could continue to kill hundreds a year in the UK as it did before the vaccine was introduced.

I would rather know all kinds about the epidemiology of a vaccine before I go shouting about it to anyone who'll listen.

*Notably, it's the same preservative in question here (thiomersal) to which the controversy was attached when taken in tandem with the MMR. Because of the importance of the MMR scare, this mercury-containing compound is one of the most robustly tested compounds in pharmacology, and is still widely used.

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QUOTE (marney1 @ Oct 9 2009, 08:33 PM)

QUOTE (Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester @ Oct 9 2009, 11:33 AM)

QUOTE (marney1 @ Oct 9 2009, 08:09 AM)

QUOTE (Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester @ Oct 9 2009, 03:45 AM)

Yeah, that's more a reason to be suspicious of absolutely everything in the world than the vaccine specifically. Surely?

Having some suspicion about certain things that could affect your health isn't a bad thing.

Education and targetted scepticism always beat sensational claims.

Look at MMR -- there is no evidence that it "causes" autism: the studies which suggested it did were widely discreditted. Reliable, strong randomised trials proving otherwise number in the scores and a high profile trial rules unequivocally in the vaccine's favour.* But as a result of the bad publicity from Wakefield et al. (Lancet 1998), rates of measles went up 2000% in England and Wales between 1997 and 2004. Had the NHS yielded to media pressure and withdrawn the vaccine, one of the only true "miracle cures" in the world would be gone, and measles and rubella especially could continue to kill hundreds a year in the UK as it did before the vaccine was introduced.

I would rather know all kinds about the epidemiology of a vaccine before I go shouting about it to anyone who'll listen.

*Notably, it's the same preservative in question here (thiomersal) to which the controversy was attached when taken in tandem with the MMR. Because of the importance of the MMR scare, this mercury-containing compound is one of the most robustly tested compounds in pharmacology, and is still widely used.

Oh for God's sake. Are you serious? Do I really have to prove that MMR doesn't cause autism, all over again? Is the world's most comprehensively proven, ridden-until-it-died, ridiculously obvious hypothesis still not good enough for you, because you can still find "natural remedy" sites and a special interest groups with an easy Google search? The first link makes one direct claim and one mention of corellation.

"A growing number of scientists and researchers believe that a relationship between the increase in neurodevelopmental disorders of autism, attention deficit hyperactive disorder, and speech or language delay, and the increased use of thimerosal in vaccines is plausible and deserves more scrutiny."

This is not true, it's one of the most analysed compounds in modern medicine.

"The United States is in the midst of a tragic epidemic of autism."

Aside from being a really stupid thing to say, that can be put down to better diagnosis.

The second link is pretty brave, in that it's a natural remedies site (no vested interests, I'm sure) which appeals to authority and wrong numbers in the same way as the first.

Would you be as easily convinced by AIDS denialists? Seriously, don't make an idiot out of yourself just because there's enough confusing wrong evidence on the Internet to keep uneducated bystanders confused.

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QUOTE(LMOZ)

drive carfuly,because every secend a shrak can teleport itself to your car, and try to drive your car (if you have one) with shark in it.

I'm not claiming (unlike you) to be an expert on the vaccines which is why I'm trying to find anything I can about them. Whatever source of information I post you try to debunk with what appears to be your own words.I haven't been able to find any sources saying that the vaccines are good for you, why don't you provide a link to your sources?

If you can convince me that what you're telling me about these things is correct I'll throw my hands up and admit you're right, I just want the facts.

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I'm a fifth year medical student, by the common standards exhibited in this field, I am an expert. Certainly more than a "civilian journalist" for a healthfood NGO. The reason I haven't quoted anything yet is because these things are so widely accepted that you'd barely need to reference them in a journal these days...

But. Search PubMed, Nature, Lancet, even New Scientist...these things tend not to be easily linkable, but they're the only good scientific sources you're going to get. But, if MMR and T'sal need vindicated again...:

I'm too busy to read all of those at the moment but I will get round to it soon, this is a debate about an important issue so I'll post a response soon. Like I said, I'm after facts and if your sources convince me then we can call it a day.

Edit:

"Today, with the exception of some Influenza (flu) vaccines, none of the vaccines used in the U.S. to protect preschool children against 12 infectious diseases contain thimerosal as a preservative." (Maldives Health)

Although I accept your arguement that the MMR vaccine appears to have (statistically) no link with autism there are many experts who dispute this which still leaves the jury out on this one.

Anyway that said, I was never really interested in the MMR vaccine (you brought that up) I'm just interested in the H1N1 vaccines.

If anyone gets sick in the H1N1 virus ("swine flu") and haven't taken and don't want to take the shot (it's not really that dangerous like the media makes it sound like) here's a free shot for the swine flu, in audio form by new swedish group "Super Viral Brothers"

And anyway, I thought you cannot get a vaccination for viral infections - virus cells mutate and change, so unless there's a miracle gonna happen, there is no way to get a swine flu vaccine.

Yeah they change but every winter we get a new vaccine developed for that season's dominant mutation. Anyway the death rate from confirmed cases is 0.5%, which isn't much. Compared to the death rate of H5N1 avian flu which is running at 60% of confirmed cases ending in death, it ain't bad at all.

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QUOTE (marney1 @ Oct 10 2009, 06:23 PM)

Although I accept your arguement that the MMR vaccine appears to have (statistically) no link with autism there are many experts who dispute this which still leaves the jury out on this one.

No it doesn't, especially when the term "expert" is so readily thrown about. But anyway, that's not the point as you said.

QUOTE

What benefits are there to be had from these vaccines?

Your body can recognise and deal with H1N1 antibodies readily.

QUOTE

What (if any) amount of mercury/thimerosal is a safe amount?

That's a pretty barbed question, since any amount of certain substances would theoretically lower your life expectancy curve minutely if there negative effects are looked at alone -- red wine is a major example. A small glass of it still has enough alcohol that theoretically it would shorten your life by 8 seconds. But in actual fact, probably not.

But the short answer is, your body can deal with quite a lot of mercury in the short term. Just not grams of it.

QUOTE

What are the exact (measures) ingredients of the H1N1 vaccines?

Attenutated H1N1, isotonic sugar solution and preservative, I can only assume. I don't know the measures by heart.

QUOTE

What are all of the side effects (long term as well as short)?

Welp in the long term as it's used, nothing. Thiomersal has a shrot half life in the body. In medical terms, ie "if you took it every x days", I don't know.

QUOTE

Is thimerosal even needed in the vaccine?

In the one it's being used for (which as I understand, is no longer planned for wide use) it is needed.

QUOTE

Fox video

I wonder about an expert [citation needed] fished out by Fox news who can't recognise mt syndrome and doesn't deny the autism link...what you're doing is making an appeal to authority through a man who, to my mind, holds no authority.

...heard from someone, that a "business associate" of theirs was a Q.A. lab person at a top pharm. company... keyword: WAS, they "left" (forced out) because their upper mgmt. wanted their approval on the H1N1 vac. from this company. They couldn't do it (cause they got morals) anywho in this person's words " It's nothing more than dirty water" ... enough said? ... I'd hope so. Modern science has a bottom line as well.... nothing is ever safe from the almighty dollar...

plus it's a "weaker" version of the generic "ol" flu. a friend of mines 4yr. son kicked it's ass.

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QUOTE (AlphaOmega @ Oct 11 2009, 05:16 AM)

...heard from someone, that a "business associate" of theirs was a Q.A. lab person at a top pharm. company... keyword: WAS, they "left" (forced out) because their upper mgmt. wanted their approval on the H1N1 vac. from this company. They couldn't do it (cause they got morals) anywho in this person's words " It's nothing more than dirty water" ... enough said? ... I'd hope so. Modern science has a bottom line as well.... nothing is ever safe from the almighty dollar...

plus it's a "weaker" version of the generic "ol" flu. a friend of mines 4yr. son kicked it's ass.

my dad works for the church and he said they literally all rape weasels on the weekend

i hope this is satisfactory proof for you

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QUOTE(LMOZ)

drive carfuly,because every secend a shrak can teleport itself to your car, and try to drive your car (if you have one) with shark in it.

my dad works for the church and he said they literally all rape weasels on the weekend

i hope this is satisfactory proof for you

so that's why they dress so nice.

yeah...well my dads bigger that yours... geez....

fyi It was the Red Cross Rep. that trains CPR/First Aid for my Company. Thought I share a experince/story I heard....

No need to get all "show-off-ish" next time I'll include my bibliography page and my works cited. So theirs no confusion.

Include it now please.

seems funny to me that "Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester" can only tell everyone that their wrong, or how he's smarter than everyone on this post.... If your so smart why haven't you cured the flu, and autsim, etc... nothing personal, though that this was "infomation excange" not "I'm smarter that you so shut up"

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QUOTE (AlphaOmega @ Oct 11 2009, 10:02 PM)

QUOTE (CaptainCharisma @ Oct 11 2009, 04:50 PM)

QUOTE (AlphaOmega @ Oct 11 2009, 09:44 PM)

QUOTE (Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester @ Oct 11 2009, 09:05 AM)

my dad works for the church and he said they literally all rape weasels on the weekend

i hope this is satisfactory proof for you

so that's why they dress so nice.

yeah...well my dads bigger that yours... geez....

fyi It was the Red Cross Rep. that trains CPR/First Aid for my Company. Thought I share a experince/story I heard....

No need to get all "show-off-ish" next time I'll include my bibliography page and my works cited. So theirs no confusion.

Include it now please.

seems funny to me that "Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester" can only tell everyone that their wrong, or how he's smarter than everyone on this post.... If your so smart why haven't you cured the flu, and autsim, etc... nothing personal, though that this was "infomation excange" not "I'm smarter that you so shut up"

I was just saying that your story was standard hearsay bullshit.

I have no interest in proving my intelligence relative to yours. My vested interest is that what makes scientific sense should come first beore barn-door conspiracy theories. To my mind this is not an "infomation excange" but a question, to which I justified my answer with the best of my knowledge, in spite of the background noise.

It's sad that you have to disagree so childishly.

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QUOTE(LMOZ)

drive carfuly,because every secend a shrak can teleport itself to your car, and try to drive your car (if you have one) with shark in it.