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I've always wondered about this... we don't pay a tax on exchanging currency at the borders - why would be have to pay a tax on this? is it capital gains or ordinary income? Any tax lawyers out there who can provide some insight?

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I am NOT an accountant, but it's my understanding that the gains/losses on smaller currency exchanges incurred while traveling are exempt from taxes up to $200 (worth of gain).

A month and a half ago, someone posted this same question and there was a pretty good discussion about it. According to a long time DV member who was a managing partner at a big CPA firm and who dealt in large currency exchange gains for a major company, these gains are treated as Capital Gains, and that means 20% maxiumum tax rate (not counting individual state taxes). I had been saying, as do many people here and in other dinar sites, that it will be treated as ordinary income. But this ex tax man member made some very good points about why our IQD purchase is an "invesement" and therefore subject to capital gains tax rates. And while I really like Breitling and his CPA buddy Bob Adams who have been saying the RV gains will be taxed as Ordinary Income (37%), it does nag at me that this ex tax man and quite a few other people say their accountant assures them that it'll be Capital Gains (20%). The difference is 17% (excluding any state taxes) and if there's a way for me to not pay that extra 17%, I want to find it. So I went searching to find out more about how the IRS treats investments. This is what I found.... Can this be the authority from the IRS that we need (which we can give to our accountant who tries to tell us the gain will be taxed as Ordinary Income) to legitimately and legally claim we are entitled to captigal gains tax treatment on the RV gains?

Please, can any tax professionals comment on this?

We bought the dinar as an "investment", which means its a "capital asset" and is subject to Capital Gains rates (and reported on IRS Form 8949). I mean, they even list stocks and bonds as an example and investing in foreign currency is surely pretty close to that. Could it really be this simple? Is there any good reason why our dinar, which we bought as an investment, should NOT be considered a capital asset" in the eyes of the IRS? Thanks!!

Topic Number 409 - Capital Gains and Losses

Almost everything you own and use for personal or investment purposes is a capital asset. Examples include a home, personal-use items like household furnishings, and stocks or bonds held as investments.When you sell a capital asset, the difference between the adjusted basis in the asset and the amount you realized from the sale is a capital gain or a capital loss. Generally, an asset's basis is its cost to the owner, but if you received the asset as a gift or inheritance, refer toTopic No. 703for information about your basis. For information on calculating adjusted basis, refer toPublication 551,Basis of Assets. You have a capital gain if you sell the asset for more than your adjusted basis. You have a capital loss if you sell the asset for less than your adjusted basis. Losses from the sale of personal-use property, such as your home or car, aren't tax deductible.

Also, for further reference, you can read the whole December thread here....

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as far as dinar for investment , : I purchased mine incase I was needed too go too the sand box and fill camel trail pot holes ! and dinar is what is needed for traveling in the sand box ( sounds plausible ? right ! ) can`t help it if I have not been called in ,and dinar values sore ...

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If you are really concerned about taxes and not really liking the Socialist Wave hitting America, you need to spend the money and do:VIP, OSI, etc. It will be the best investment you can make in yourself, your family, and your future. There is no other way. The IRS can do what ever they want , include taking every dinar you own. Not trying to be disrespectful just trying to give you a real option.

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Here's the thing. Many CPAs believe the RV gains will be taxed as ordinary income but there are quite a few other CPAs who claim it will be capital gains. Undoubtedly, they both believe they are correct, but clearly only one side is right, so the other side has to be wrong. I'm simply trying to determine who is correct here - and to do that, we have to find the appropriate IRS opinion on the subject because they are the final authority on this. Anyway, I used to accept the ordinary income interpretation, largely because Breitling's CPA friend Bob Adams (who I personally know and trust as good, decent, honest man and very competant CPA) has assured us that he researched this extensively and that for sure it's ordinary income. Turns out that last summer, Bob Adams and Breitling did an audio where Bob explains exactly why he believes he's correct. That audio was the subject of a post here at dinar vets and one of our members, xtaxguy (who introduced himself saying, "I was a big 8 tax partner with numerous international clients and a tax manager at the HQ of a Fortune 100 company where one of my duties was to calculate the unrealized currency conversion gains and losses on periodic financial statements including the unrealized (i.e., deferred) tax effects related to those gains or losses)" responded to the audio and explained why he believes Bob Adam's is wrong. If xtaxguy is who he says he is (and from the things he's written, he does seem to really know accounting), his expertise and experience on this subject is far superior to pretty much any other CPA (including Bob Adams as nice and competent as he is), so you gotta think xtaxguy's opinion is the correct one. Again, I believe both sides honestly believe they are correct, but the US tax codes are massive, and it's very easy to get lost and end up drawing the wrong conclusions. Nonetheless, I don't know xtaxguy from Adam, so, personally, I need to verify what he's saying. His use of the term "investment" sent me on a new quest to find what the IRS is currently saying about this - which is what I posted yesterday. But I'm no CPA and I could easily be overlooking other significant information. I had asked (via several posts), if xtaxguy would comment on what I'd found, but so far he has not responded. So, I'm asking if some other tax professionals would be willing to weigh in on this.

This would be so fantasic if we can get some tax professionals to confirm that, according to what the IRS says, we can claim the RV income as capital gains and not ordinary income. That would let us keep an extra $.17 on every dollar of profit and that will be thousands and thousands of dollars for most of us. So can any tax professionals help us out here? ANYONE????

Also, for reference, I'm copying below what xtaxguy wrote (back in August) where explains why Bob Adam's is wrong in his conslusion that it's capital gains.

Note so. The code section you are talking about deals ONLY with ACTIVELY CONDUCTED TRADES OR BUSINESSES, the transactions of which generally result in ordinary income or loss, and but provides for two exceptions: businesses that designate certain transactions as "investments" will get the normal treatment of such results as capital gain or loss - that is simply extending the [asset] expenditure rules for general US business transactions in US dollars to those made in foreign currencies. A common example is a real estate developer, who can acquire or build properties for sale (resulting in ordinary income or loss) or to hold for investment (generating ordinary income and deductions through rental operations and capital gain or loss upon sale of the property. Whether an asset is used in an active trade or business, or is a capital investment for the production of investment income, is an issue based on "all the relevant facts and circumstances" which gives CPAs and IRS agents ample ground for fee generating differences of opinion. This section was primarily enacted to provide a clear prerequisite path of identifying the taxpayer's opinions as to the nature of its assets, so that any gains or losses from currency fluctuations will be taxed in the same manner as the underlying transaction, an issue that simply does not exist when all activities of a US business are done in US$.

But most of us, with no PERSONALLY conducted active trade or business, let alone one in any way related to Iraq, don't even have to deal with the issue. Currency gains or losses are treated the same way as the underlying asset, business or investment. If you have no business involving IQD's, the asset is clearly an investment, whether it is a pile of dinar, ancient Iraqi artifacts, or a plot of dirt in the green zone.

The other exception is a de minimus "comfort" provision thrown in so traveling business persons who are scared to death of the IRS will have guidance for reporting [or ignoring] small gains or losses on currency exchanges [i.e., pocket money] incident to their travel. The only events I know of when this was perhaps more than trivial were the various sudden and unexpected collapses of a few foreign currencies such as Mexico's scam of the '70's, the Kuwait occupation, the Russian revolution, etc. I was a CPA and took a fraud loss ordinary deduction for a business client who had some Mexican bonds that dropped by 90%. There was an IRS audit, the group chief allowed it, but that is of absolutely zero value as a precedent - it turned on intentionally false representations made by the Mexican government just prior to the issuance of the bonds.

However, I was a tax manager for a Fortune 100 public company with extensive US and overseas operations, incident to which I had to sort all foreign related assets, income, and deductions into their proper category of "investment" or "active trade or business" and calculate the currency gains or losses on each transaction [if any] arising from those two "pots" and the resulting ordinary or capital gain/loss taxes. Every federal consolidated tax return and financial statement of that company was audited by large teams of high level IRS agents and senior Big 8 CPA's every year. In a ten year run of audits, NO adjustments were ever made by any of them on this methodology except for a couple of minor clerical errors in the data entry.

If you have a CPA or tax attorney who tells you to treat your IQD gains or losses as ordinary, and you have no actively conducted business in Iraq or that uses Dinar in the regular conduct of its business, there is only one thing you can do: get a new CPA or tax attorney. And even if you do have such a business, I'd have a 99% confidence level in winning investment treatment on the pile of dinars under your bed! Higher if you've never sold any of them. FYI, I have written on this topic in even greater detail several times in the past.

If you want ZERO taxes, create a self directed Roth IRA. Make max contributions to it. Direct it to invest in a new LLC of which the IRA is the only member and you are the manager. Have the LLC buy IQDs. Sell when you want, but hold the US$ in the LLC until you are old enough (not a problem for most of us), then the LLC distributes whatever cash you want to the IRA which in turn distributes to YOU, tax free. Keep the US$ you don't need immediately in the LLC and have it invest in other stuff to earn more income that will not be taxed by the US or most States (CA being a notable exception - best to put your LLC in a State with no state income tax on LLCs). There's a ton of details, some paper work, and sum expense in setting this up, and not everyone is eligible to do this (e.g., max contribution is a function of earned income, etc.), but if you are eligible the whole deal should be in the $1 - 2,000 range, plus your contributions to the Roth IRA for investments. Google for "Self-directed Roth IRAs" to find professional paper shufflers who might have their act together. Use only those who have been around for 5+ years and have good genuine reviews. If the IQD does rv to a rate anywhere near even 10% of what the pumpers foresee, your investment in setting up this mechanism will give you a much higher return (in saved taxes, even at low capital gain rates) than you will be getting from the IQDs themselves.

And here's the link to that thread if you want to read everything that was discussed:

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If you are really concerned about taxes and not really liking the Socialist Wave hitting America, you need to spend the money and do:VIP, OSI, etc. It will be the best investment you can make in yourself, your family, and your future. There is no other way. The IRS can do what ever they want , include taking every dinar you own. Not trying to be disrespectful just trying to give you a real option.

Well I do actually have an IBC (but not through OSI, I need direct access to the people managing it and am not comfortable having to always go through a middleman). But Coorslight has said, and I agree with him, that the only truly safe way to use your IBC to minimize taxes is to get your dinar outside of the US, in $10,000 increments, prior to the RV. Mailing or hand carrying more than $10,000 worth of currency outside the US is technically illegal and while the chance of getting caught and having it confiscated may be small, you never know and I'm personally not willing to risk that. I am also concerned that using an attorney to exchange my IBC's dinar in the US and then wiring that money to my offshore bank account will be construued by the IRS as my IBC doing business in the US - which would mean all of it's income is then subject to US tax laws. Luckily, I currently live outside the US and have brought some of my dinar with me, though most of it is still in the US. I've thought long hard on this and personally, I would rather pay taxes (though I'd prefer to pay only the capital gains rate) on everything I have in the US than do anything that could risk it being confiscated, or risk losing my IBC's status as not being subject to US income taxes.

So for me, and also for some other people who just don't want to go the IBC route for whatever reason, and for other people who plan to immediately cash in at least some of their dinar for spending money or whatever, I definitely think it's worth discussing taxes, and particularly determining if we can treat this income as capital gains and not ordinary income.

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Well I do actually have an IBC (but not through OSI, I need direct access to the people managing it and am not comfortable having to always go through a middleman). But Coorslight has said, and I agree with him, that the only truly safe way to use your IBC to minimize taxes is to get your dinar outside of the US, in $10,000 increments, prior to the RV. Mailing or hand carrying more than $10,000 worth of currency outside the US is technically illegal and while the chance of getting caught and having it confiscated may be small, you never know and I'm personally not willing to risk that. I am also concerned that using an attorney to exchange my IBC's dinar in the US and then wiring that money to my offshore bank account will be construued by the IRS as my IBC doing business in the US - which would mean all of it's income is then subject to US tax laws. Luckily, I currently live outside the US and have brought some of my dinar with me, though most of it is still in the US. I've thought long hard on this and personally, I would rather pay taxes (though I'd prefer to pay only the capital gains rate) on everything I have in the US than do anything that could risk it being confiscated, or risk losing my IBC's status as not being subject to US income taxes.

So for me, and also for some other people who just don't want to go the IBC route for whatever reason, and for other people who plan to immediately cash in at least some of their dinar for spending money or whatever, I definitely think it's worth discussing taxes, and particularly determining if we can treat this income as capital gains and not ordinary income.

First.......I don't have a great deal of IQD.........but what I do have is already offshore.......that just makes the most sense.....then nothing can go wrong.....( unless of course you forget which desert island you buried it on)

Kristi seems to be a very independent woman..........she travels her own path and I admire and respect that......

We all usually stay pretty true to our own core beliefs.........she has expressed hers here...........and I respect that as well.........

I share some of those beliefs........I'm pretty independent myself.........

The IBC/OSI concept is sound........there may be hundreds.......even thousands on this site that have learned a little bit about the process because of the postings here on DV........

As I understand it..... post any RV of the IQD.......everyone not involved in the DV aspect of VIP/OSI .......... will be on their own......

Many are not involved........and that's a choice..........and that's OK.....

If indeed there is a change of value in the IQD........or if you win the lottery..........or inherit a bundle........I encourage any/all of you to look at getting some funds secured off shore........

Or at least diversify so all funds aren't in USD....

As to taxes......I defer to Kristi.........and Montana............they are smarter than I.........by a whole lot......

My personal belief........based on a whole bunch of info gained over time........is any RI or RV will not be taxed........

This is mostly because of the current Administration...........they would let the money flow to where ever it flows.........and that would improve the country.......

The left would Tax the cap out of it.......take the money because they are smarter than all of us........they would take care of us......because we're all to stupid to take care of ourselves.......you get the point...........(hello AOC and Socialism)

The Gov't will be fine...........They hold Trillions in IQD.....as do many Govt's around the World..........

And no.......this is not by accident..........since 71 when the FIAT system was put in place........there has been a plan for what's next..........

So for those not involved in VIP/OSI......no worries.......I would guess most are not........

I will add that Chuck.......along with many in VIP profited greatly in the 2017 cryptocurrency run........I know a few who probably profited on a much greater level......than they ever hope to with the IQD they hold.......

So.....I've rambled again........

I'll probably reread this later and clean it up some.........in the mean time......enjoy your Saturday...........CL

Your personal belief is that the RI or RV will not be taxed, but you say any/all should get some funds secured off shore, or should diversify some funds out of US dollars.

If there were to be no tax, what is the reason for investing off shore or diversifying out of dollars?

Do you think the dollar will crash?

I believe the $$$ in the current situation is in some danger.........there are so many factors.....positive and negative......right now in the area of World finance.....

The World debt is very concerning........US debt included......

One day they woke up in Iceland.....one day they woke up in Cyprus........things had changed........I know.......that stuff can't happen in America......can't it?

Many triggers out there that might topple the house of cards...everywhere........Yellow Vests in France want to create a bank run..... Deutsche Bank is insolvent for all practical purposes......China is in a huge housing bubble.........GE........once a massive worldwide entity has a net value of negative $31 Billion.....and that involves a great many financial sectors.......

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I believe the $$$ in the current situation is in some danger.........there are so many factors.....positive and negative......right now in the area of World finance.....

The World debt is very concerning........US debt included......

One day they woke up in Iceland.....one day they woke up in Cyprus........things had changed........I know.......that stuff can't happen in America......can't it?

Many triggers out there that might topple the house of cards...everywhere........Yellow Vests in France want to create a bank run..... Deutsche Bank is insolvent for all practical purposes......China is in a huge housing bubble.........GE........once a massive worldwide entity has a net value of negative $31 Billion.....and that involves a great many financial sectors.......

First.......I don't have a great deal of IQD.........but what I do have is already offshore.......that just makes the most sense.....then nothing can go wrong.....( unless of course you forget which desert island you buried it on)

Kristi seems to be a very independent woman..........she travels her own path and I admire and respect that......

We all usually stay pretty true to our own core beliefs.........she has expressed hers here...........and I respect that as well.........

I share some of those beliefs........I'm pretty independent myself.........

The IBC/OSI concept is sound........there may be hundreds.......even thousands on this site that have learned a little bit about the process because of the postings here on DV........

As I understand it..... post any RV of the IQD.......everyone not involved in the DV aspect of VIP/OSI .......... will be on their own......

Many are not involved........and that's a choice..........and that's OK.....

If indeed there is a change of value in the IQD........or if you win the lottery..........or inherit a bundle........I encourage any/all of you to look at getting some funds secured off shore........

Or at least diversify so all funds aren't in USD....

As to taxes......I defer to Kristi.........and Montana............they are smarter than I.........by a whole lot......

My personal belief........based on a whole bunch of info gained over time........is any RI or RV will not be taxed........

This is mostly because of the current Administration...........they would let the money flow to where ever it flows.........and that would improve the country.......

The left would Tax the cap out of it.......take the money because they are smarter than all of us........they would take care of us......because we're all to stupid to take care of ourselves.......you get the point...........(hello AOC and Socialism)

The Gov't will be fine...........They hold Trillions in IQD.....as do many Govt's around the World..........

And no.......this is not by accident..........since 71 when the FIAT system was put in place........there has been a plan for what's next..........

So for those not involved in VIP/OSI......no worries.......I would guess most are not........

I will add that Chuck.......along with many in VIP profited greatly in the 2017 cryptocurrency run........I know a few who probably profited on a much greater level......than they ever hope to with the IQD they hold.......

So.....I've rambled again........

I'll probably reread this later and clean it up some.........in the mean time......enjoy your Saturday...........CL

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wow. So glad this discussion happened. I am an attorney - NOT a tax attorney. I am hoping to keep my investing as simple as possible in the short run. Having lived through an IRS audit - have absolutely no desire for another.