vinnie wrote:STA issue? There is a huge difference between his expected roles at Barva and Aresenal. At arsenal he could sit around, getting fed the ball by his team mates and generally allowed to be more lazy. At Barca though, EVERYONE has to be constantly moving to support the tiki-tika system. I think it is not easy to go from 7 years of being the designated playmaker, to just another cog in the machine. It'll take time and practice to adjust. I'm sure he will, he is after all (mind the cliche) Barca DNA.

I know It Isn't an STA issue, he actually has some impressive physique, his stamina Is really outstanding. It's not easy to notice due to his role, he's not a sideback or anything where you can notice It easier how much he exposes his body to a limit, but I have no doubts Cesc can mantain It throughout the match. Still, I can also see that not only due to his (impressive) physical conditions, he can't mantain his level during a match. I still don't know what's wrong with him, but he slacks eventually. Mentality to me.

kunmariano wrote:

Ajacied_Breda1 wrote:Why don't you just bugger off for a bit, kunmariano. I've got better things to do then read your biased tripe.

ey friend learns to write, DO NOT UNDERSTAND ANYTHING YOU !!!!... who believes you got a problem here?

Yes it is about Mentality for me too. I'm not sure it is about his Mentality and adaptation only, it is about form IMO. Nobody can forget how crazy he was at the start of the season (Scoring every game, bundles of assists) He could've scored hat-tricks at times but luck couldn't help. His goal against Madrid in the league was a highlight of his dynamic ability (he ran from Valdes' box to the other box). He was still a shining player and a danger for every opposition. It's also about TW, if he's yet to adapt to the style (little movements and support) then his TW should be decreased too.

He needs lower DEF, BAL and TW. He's above the average AM in terms of defending but not at this level. A 56/57 is more than enough for him. Doesn't deserve this BAL whether it comes to balance or actual strength. A 78 would suit him. And TW has been the main issue when played in midfield. His movement just isn't up to Barca standard. No more than a 85 for me.MENT could use a decrease as well. I'm almost 100% sure Konami gave him that value because he was Arsenal's captain but he got the band mostly to get him to stay. Not much of a leader really, wouldn't put him higher than 76.

thor34 wrote:JUMP: 80/81/82. Digestible methionine and leap up to splice the header. From what I saw the half-length coat will easily to Angeleri.

He already had all that at Arsenal but he wanted trophies. I do think he should be awarded time to get used to things at Barca though, adjust his style as well. You can't just expect players to be an instant succes.

thor34 wrote:JUMP: 80/81/82. Digestible methionine and leap up to splice the header. From what I saw the half-length coat will easily to Angeleri.

thiago/villa/cuenca/sanchez/keita/busquets/affelay/henry all were able to adopt into the style and play their roles well without messing up the way barca plays... cesc can't even play his real role in the teammany of them are youth team players, so you could say they'd be exepected to slot in easier... though you could also say the the leap from b to a is an extremly big one and I'd expect the kids to have more problems adjusting to real professional football than an established player whos been playing the top flight, even as captain for years. Cesc has no excuse imo, hes raised in barca and played on a team that plays the closest football to barca

The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.

LeMisérable wrote:im not mad, why should I be mad just because of you, your nothing, 1 in 7 billion, i mean dude

He's playing too free...and I'm pretty sure that wasn't what he's been told. It's pretty sad, It's as If he was a third team on the field. Horrible to me, never supportive, never a beacon as he was always thought to be and as he was asked to be. He scored goals? Sure, who wouldn't? It's Barça for fuck's sake. Bad, bad bad since he was signed. Period.

kunmariano wrote:

Ajacied_Breda1 wrote:Why don't you just bugger off for a bit, kunmariano. I've got better things to do then read your biased tripe.

ey friend learns to write, DO NOT UNDERSTAND ANYTHING YOU !!!!... who believes you got a problem here?

* = it means that i'm dwelling on this and/or still testing as i'm quite aware that it has a BIG influence on his overall movements and will be the main points of my explanations

DEF - from what i know, on more offensive players (when talking and working with lower values, 60's and so) it's more of a tendency to defend or better said just drop back while the team is defending, rather than to defend properly and how deep they drop when receiving the ball. Even though he's mostly deployed as an attacking midfielder or sometimes even as a strange looking false forward, Fabregas regularly drops deep to receive the ball, and since we ruled out AGG out (for how far forward/deep a player plas...), DEF is the only stat which influences such things. But, of course it is a double edged sword as the stats primary influence is defending, but it's quite rare you'll see an AMF defending properly even with a higher value due to his position it'll just make him drop deeper in build up. As i'm starting to repeat myself here, i'll assume my point was made

RES - another thing which came to mind when watching the game of the Barca Fabregas is that he's now far more offensive, and as said, plays a more advanced role, his forward runs are more and more often, especially the late runs in the area (which are already influenced with *Reaction, but somewhat with RES as well) but a higher RES might help as well on the offensive phase and will increase the frequency of runs in the box as well, to a lesser degree.

DA - seriously, never ever have i though of him as a player with 85+ DA, he just fails to show that on his runs with the ball (while sprinting of course), he simply isn't cut out for such things and that's why we rarely see him doing it (and he's aware of that as well), the distance between the ball and his foot isn't quite impressive and he's lost a fair share of balls this season on his "adventurous" runs, his close control is impressive, but as said a zillion times, all players have a fixed value when not sprinting.

SA - tremendous finishing ability which he's been demonstrating since his early Arsenal days, i'm quite surprised we've been so conservative with him (on his accuracy), give him space and he'll score (similar to VdV when he was at his best, but a bit worse than him), he's able to find the corners regularly as well.

SP - he doesn't shoot from outwide, and since he's playing in teams which, well, don't shoot outside the box it's really unnecessary for him to have yellow SP as the tendency to shoot with a yellow SP is quite bigger than with a green SP from outside the box and given his relatively high SA he'll shoot far too often, which he simply doesn't. it's quite simple actually. he could even sit a bit lower...

ST - IMO often misunderstood for poor accuracy, while the thing is, he simply can't shoot under pressure or with a man next to him, he may hit them half decently from a bit awkward situation, but struggles to put any kind of power on then and bobbles them quite often when shooting in the box with a man on his back.

AGG - this is simply testing, more advanced position, more AGG, more runs at the defence, more AGG, not much to add, apart that coupled with higher DEF works quite well

MENT - far from the authority figure he was at Arenal, this season he lost his head and became completely anonymous for large chunks of the game and it's almost became a synonym for him. And not to forget that his head tends to drop down when the team aren't at his best, losing, winning, it doesn't matter, if the team doesn't play well, you won't really see him doing anything on his own, far from that guy who dragged the whole team on his back the last couple of seasons

TW - as already said, his movements this season have been far from pleasing, and somewhat limited given that he's got less freedom than he had at Arsenal, the primary playmaking is reserved for the regular three man squad of X, I and B. Not really that much to add here...

Playmaking - the thing i'm dwelling the most on, he certainly doesn't deserve it this season, and certainly not in the current system and team he's playing on. He's miles apart from a playmaker, and with that his movements are far more restricted and he's more inclined on, well everything, apart from attacking, which doesn't suit him atm.

EDIT: forgot to add the lower SP explanation, added now.

Fixer wrote:No wonder there's a 'penetration' stat, all of them players look like rapists

Good set Cale! I've been using him with 83 TW for a bit anyway, he's really little supportive, just as much as It's needed, and for Barça It's too little. I see him faster than 75, but he barely ever shows It, makes up with a fair response imo. Not sure on attack 85, maybe a bit lower tough...If It's for his goalscoring ability, still lower to me, but I'm good with higher SA and lower shooting stats. The rest seem pretty nice. Just saw him surprisingly fine at heading...nothing AMAZING, but effective. Imo worth greens.

kunmariano wrote:

Ajacied_Breda1 wrote:Why don't you just bugger off for a bit, kunmariano. I've got better things to do then read your biased tripe.

ey friend learns to write, DO NOT UNDERSTAND ANYTHING YOU !!!!... who believes you got a problem here?

jurgens wrote:thiago/villa/cuenca/sanchez/keita/busquets/affelay/henry all were able to adopt into the style and play their roles well without messing up the way barca plays... cesc can't even play his real role in the teammany of them are youth team players, so you could say they'd be exepected to slot in easier... though you could also say the the leap from b to a is an extremly big one and I'd expect the kids to have more problems adjusting to real professional football than an established player whos been playing the top flight, even as captain for years. Cesc has no excuse imo, hes raised in barca and played on a team that plays the closest football to barca

The only reason Arsenal are compared to Barca is because they like to keep possesion. They play a different game. Far more direct, less movement throughout the team, more emphasis on wing play, more room for individuality. Just a few examples. Villarreal played a game more similar to Barca's than Arsenal. Fabregas played a different game, he had a free role as well.Henry didn't adapt quickly at all. Keita and affelay are nice subs but that's it. If they would have to be starters and had to play weekly, you'd see that they don't really fit. And it is easier for the youth products. It's a higher level yeah but the football is the same as they have been playing for years, it's all they know.

Anyway, I don't think I'll be able to convince you of him needing more time. Not that I'm saying he surely will succeed if given time. But it's not important anyway .

Interesting set cale. Disagree with DA and passing though, especially passing. Still one of the best passers around imo.

thor34 wrote:JUMP: 80/81/82. Digestible methionine and leap up to splice the header. From what I saw the half-length coat will easily to Angeleri.

was about to say the same, wouldn't take him out of 90's and sps should be athe 90 mark too, Still the number 2 short passer from spain if you ask me. Also I think we under-rated him in DA..he does have very good control imo. Also his DS is a good bit higher than a 78, he can run pretty well on the ball.. I don't like the ST personaly.. I think ST is something we have a messed up defeintion of tbh, hes good at st imo. Don't agree with lowering hos lpa either, rest is good

The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.

LeMisérable wrote:im not mad, why should I be mad just because of you, your nothing, 1 in 7 billion, i mean dude

idk, maybe it's just me, but the amount of turnovers he caused with his unnecessary dribbles and runs is quite high, and as i said, keeping the ball close to his foot/feet while sprinting isn't quite encouraging...

on passing, surely that's true, but he's just stopped doing them on a constant basis, and it's maybe just an overall dip in form, but you can't really say that he's been as incisive as he's been in the Prem...

EDIT: what are your thoughts on ST then Rob?

Fixer wrote:No wonder there's a 'penetration' stat, all of them players look like rapists

i have absolutely no doubts about his skill...he's a proven top class passer...but has he been that effective? Has he really given hard passes that often? I haven't seen him. Much more of a passing receiver, still great and has shown them often, but not as much as some La Liga players who aren't rated that high and have been much better (Cazorlita?). Barça openn so many spaces for It to be that difficult, that team Is too perfect...It's so hard to be perfect with flaws, how do they manage to be? Such a paradox.

kunmariano wrote:

Ajacied_Breda1 wrote:Why don't you just bugger off for a bit, kunmariano. I've got better things to do then read your biased tripe.

ey friend learns to write, DO NOT UNDERSTAND ANYTHING YOU !!!!... who believes you got a problem here?

I wouldn't really bring SPA down. I agree with the thought of him being (still) a high quality passer... it's probably true he's been less "incisive" this season because of his lack of adaptation, but personally... when he tries one difficult pass, you see the quality (or at least, I see it) being still there.

Hadn't we agreed previously on downgrading his Mentality to whites? He has done very little to deserve more this year IMO.

agree with Korinov .he remains one of the best passers. i personally use KONAMI's values (SPA 94 SPS 93).but any orange value is fine for me.i hop he gets better next yearcan't his TW go a little higher ?.