:I think what we can understand Frangopoulos to be saying (to put a positive spin on it), is that we have all died in Adam and, through the Fall, have become citizens of the kingdom of darkness. We must die to Adam - not just clean things up, but die - and be reborn into new life in Christ. This is our justification (as we say during the Baptismal service), and the foundation of Church life.

:I think what we can understand Frangopoulos to be saying (to put a positive spin on it), is that we have all died in Adam and, through the Fall, have become citizens of the kingdom of darkness. We must die to Adam - not just clean things up, but die - and be reborn into new life in Christ. This is our justification (as we say during the Baptismal service), and the foundation of Church life.

:Hope that helps! {{User:FrJohn/sig}}

:Hope that helps! {{User:FrJohn/sig}}

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== Original Sin Question ==

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I guess my question is two fold. And I think you answered well the discrepency between the Roman and Orthodox churches with regard to the CCC

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404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam "as one body of one man".293 By this "unity of the human race" all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as all are implicated in Christ's justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" - a state and not an act.

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http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p7.htm

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I'm still unclear though as to whether the Orthodox view is that we inherit personal guilt for the original sin. I'm not so concerned with the Roman idealogy so much as whether the Orthodox beleive we inherit personal guilt, and if so why this doesn't require a doctrine like the Immaculate Conception.

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Thanks much!

Revision as of 09:39, March 3, 2006

Welcome to my discussion page. Please post new messages to the bottom of the page and use headings when starting new discussion topics. Please also sign and date your entries by inserting - ~~~~ at the end. Thank you.Start a new discussion topic.

Interwiki

Father, would it be okay to get rid of some of these? For instance, the AndStuff wiki is personal and closed. For many of these, it's doubtful that we would ever link them, let alone in quantities enough to justify having an interwiki link (LinuxWiki, for example). On the other hand, it may be easier to keep them than weed them out. Additionally, some of the interwiki links do not link to wikis, like those related to Google. Your thoughts? —magda (talk) 13:06, November 21, 2005 (CST)

Favicon License

Father, That license for the favicon was for the favicon that I created. If you read the log, I think HappyGrievling replaced it with a favicon of his version. He just didn't change the license.

Father, I thought you might be interested in this link which I found last night. —magda (talk) 09:23, November 24, 2005 (CST)

Link buttons

Fr., the first one is link-button size, but the second is more banner-sized, and rather illegible when reduced to the size of the first. Still want the second? You're welcome to both, of course. —magda (talk) 12:08, November 25, 2005 (CST)

IRC

Fr. I noticed that Dcn. Damick, Magda, and yourself are doing some serious work with images. I would jump in and help, but don't know where to start. Do you use Firefox for your browser? If so, have you looked at the ChatZilla IRC Client I wrote about. I think this would help everyone talk about what everyone else is doing at the moment and might help speed things along. This is the last time I will mention it for a while. I am currently logged into the #orthodoxwiki channel at irc.freenode.net using the default user name. Joe 18:09 EST 26 Nov 2005

Japan

Please import all appropriate images from a whole category at one time and then register the category on Wikimedia Commons that they were imported from here. — I don't think I understand this sentence. Would you please clarify? —magda (talk) 22:06, November 26, 2005 (CST)

Okay, so what images do you want in this category? Each and every icon? Just want to make sure before going ahead. My plan is to go through Special:Imagelist tomorrow (or later today, in my time zone) and make sure they're in the lists by subject. —magda (talk) 23:17, November 26, 2005 (CST)

More specifically, do you want to add [[Category:Icons]] even to the images which are already in, say, Category:Skete Images? The Skete Images category itself is in Category:Icons, but the individual images do not show up in the Category:Icons gallery. —magda (talk) 14:30, November 27, 2005 (CST)

How about images which are included in a permission category, but not a topical category—Image:Alaska.png, Image:Alexandria logo.gif—would you want them to be in the ironic "Uncategorized Images" category? —magda (talk) 16:08, November 27, 2005 (CST)

Any idea what to do about the two almost-identical Atalla Hanna pictures? I would prefer to delete the second, but am not sure how. —magda (talk) 16:20, November 27, 2005 (CST)

Atallah Hanna.jpg

Atallah%20Hanna.jpg

That's part of what has me confused, but there is a separate listing for each on Special:Imagelist (500, by name), and when clicking on the filename, those are kept in different directories, so it's not the exact same file: [1] and [2]. —magda (talk) 18:20, November 27, 2005 (CST)

Vandalbot Template

We can either do that, or just check the list at the admin yahoo group by searching for vandal. —magda (talk) 20:54, November 27, 2005 (CST)

More image stuff

Category:OrthodoxWiki Images—
It seems that some of these, such as Image:Logo wikikto en.jpg, would be better off in the Logos category. I don't see them as OrthodoxWiki logos or even system images. If you think they should remain in this category, perhaps you could add a clarifyer on the category page?

MediaWiki:Uploadtext—
Should we add something like: "If you have obtained this image from the internet, please include the URL in the summary." ? (Or perhaps: "If you have obtained this image from the internet, please include the URL in the summary, unless the source is evident from the image license.")

Re: Copyright trouble

Hello Father, I edit/create new entries on both sites (Wikipedia and OrthodoxWiki - see, for example, [3] and [4] and compare to OrthodoxWiki), so it's the same person in most cases, though I use different usernames in Wikipedia and usually even edit without loging in at all, i.e., a different IP address will appear at different times (my IP is not static). I started editing in Wikipedia before moving to OrthodoxWiki. In Christ, --Arbible 17:31, November 28, 2005 (CST)

Yes, Father. St. Mina's article [5] is a complete rewrite from scratch by me (cf. previous edits), and St. Mina Monastery article [6] has been created and fully written/edited by me too on both sites. In Christ, --Arbible 17:39, November 28, 2005 (CST)

A general problem with wikis is the lack of explicit authorship/editorship information, and of mechanisms to ensure this is clearly present in every article. (For quality benchmarking purposes an IP or nickname cannot qualify as proper authorship/editorship information.) This is a crucial quality criterion that we teach to our students - please refer to the following presentation of mine: http://healthcybermap.org/MNKB_Quality.PDF

I need to go now - I will be in Thailand for the coming few days, God willing, to deliver an invited keynote speech at a conference http://www.j-geoinfo.net/HealthGIS/FISH_prog.htm , so won't be available to reply/edit. Please keep me in your prayers. In Christ, --Arbible 19:36, November 28, 2005 (CST)

Reply

Thanks for the links, but can you be more explicit about what you are saying they demonstrate? Thanks, Fr. John

Even when one is simply importing (to a different wiki)/reusing their own articles that nobody else has edited this can still sometimes be considered self-plagiarism by academic standards (also depending on the specific details of a particular import and how you approach/judge the whole matter). OPEN wiki "encyclopedias" are not academically rigorous and were never intended to be so. Nicknames are not any better than IP addresses (in this respect). One can never compare Wikipedia to Britannica, for example - see [7], [8]. Please forgive me Father; you should never describe yourself as "slow sometimes". Thanks for the prayerful wishes. In Christ, --Arbible 20:30, November 28, 2005 (CST)

I have also written a bit on the wiki concept in this recent editorial of mine: http://www.ij-healthgeographics.com/content/4/1/22 (see under 'Discussion > The wikification of GIS, maps and satellite imagery/aerial photography: imaging and geospatial information for the wide masses')

RE: P.S

Did I ever mention that one day last year a woman showed up at my church - she had been Muslim by was converted by a miracle that she a her sister both witnessed together -- it was a manifestation of Pope St. Kyrillos? It was a beautiful story. Fr. John

Ethics

I've been using the off-line OrthodoxWiki known as the seminary for the article. I am taking a course in Orthodox Christian Ethics this semester and when we were told to come up with a project for the semester... There were three of us, writing three articles each, so hopefully, before the end of the year, there will be eight more articles for that section of OrthodoxWiki. Virgil

Actually, yes. Among the options for projects was "creating ethics-related web-pages," with the provision that we would have to show they are useful for more than just getting a grade. Naturally, I suggested OrthodoxWiki. Thankfully, it was accepted. Virgil

address of st catherine- mt siani

dearest father - would you happen to know the address to the monastery of st catherine ( mt. saini)? I would like to send a prayer request for 40 days litergy . ( seven days a week for 40 days)I was looking for information who was the heiromonk and where to send a offering.- thank- you! with love in christ- athena

This was actually a longer search than I expected, Father. I'm still working on going to the library to finish copying out the list of names for this request. Sorry for the editing conflict. Thanks for the tip on the favicon. And what do you mean you don't know everything? :) —magda (talk) 10:14, November 30, 2005 (CST)

Favicon

Is it just me, or is the favicon not showing up? —magda (talk) 09:35, November 30, 2005 (CST)

Maps

Fr. If you are talking about using the Google API I think that would be great. Joe 30 Nov 2005

The main difficulty with having Category:Clergy include individuals is that it would thus necessarily encompass nearly every person whose bio we have on the wiki, thus rendering it nearly useless. —Fr. Andrewtalkcontribs(THINK!) 17:33, November 30, 2005 (CST)

I'm honestly not sure. Obviously, we don't want uncategorized articles, but I'm also not sure how to supply categories for some of these folks. —Fr. Andrewtalkcontribs(THINK!) 17:47, November 30, 2005 (CST)

Come Receive the Light

Fr. Is that your wife on the receive.org website/broadcast? Joe 4 Dec 2005

Japanese Church Images

Fr. John, I like the categories setting up all the images on file. I suggest adding the image of Metr. Sergius to the Japanese category. I couldn't how you linked the image to the Japanese image category, so that's why I'm sending this!! The file is: Image:Met_Sergius%28port%29.jpg. ````

Chicago

The other states are not usually one-large-metropolitan-area and everybody-else. In Texas, most things (as far as I know) are grouped by metropolitan area. For instance, someone looking for a church in Dallas may find that the closest church to his location-in-Dallas is actually in, say, Irving. Since he wouldn't be going to Irving itself, he probably wouldn't look for churches there. I would love to see a google map interface with these pages somehow.

photo of Lossky

Your Welcome

Your welcome. Even despite our differences I do wish the best for all people of faith. I do ask if at possible, that I be given access to my user talk page again. I think I understand why you locked it but I think we can agree to disagree without needing to make it a large issue. --Patriarchanthony 21:31, December 11, 2005 (CST)

Vandals

Kynilyator

Qolyan

Reverted pages they vandalized. Best I can do. --Patriarchanthony 21:06, December 12, 2005 (CST)

Greetings. I'm a student of Orthodox Seminary in Poland and I'm searching books and materials about hisotry of Orthodoxy in America, becouse I want to wrie my bechelor work about this. Maybe You can help for me?

Broken link

Hey, thanks for the encouragement. I'll be sure to work on a better article. - Ari 23:26, January 2, 2006 (CST)

Thanks:)

Thanks for the extra points of view and thanks for reading some of my site. I did some research on the Great Schism of 1054 for a major project but I could not find enough information on it from first hand historians and most of what I did find was written by the west so it showed bias. I'm will try and work some of your suggestions into the site. --Ari 00:03, January 3, 2006 (CST)

Vandals

Father,

I did what I could to revert the perverse edits of a few spammers. I can't delete the pics but I assume a revert of them does the same thing? Not sure. But again, I did what I could. Edit this because problem resolved with sysop. :) --Patriarchanthony 01:12, January 8, 2006 (CST)

Re: Copyright Concern?

Hi
We have permission to use this articles.

Hello again!

Thank you very much for responding. I have to apologies, but this system is absolutely new to me. The way its working is little different that just ordinary website, also, tags is different too, so I will ask for your patients and forgiveness for any mistakes I could make in future. I guess it’s going to take some time to learn.
If you could advice how this information should be putted we will be much appreciated, and if you think it should be deleted, than do so.
About the copyright issue you don’t’ have to worry about this, because I am the owner and administrator of the blago.org server
Thank you in advance.

Original Sin Question

The following is from Our Orthodox Christian Faith: A
Handbook of Popular Dogmatics by Athanasios S.
Frangopoulos, theologian and teacher. Published by The
Brother of Theologians, "The Savior", in Athens,
Greece, 1984, Chapter 9, The Original Sin:

"4.e. The inheritance of Original Sin. The saddest and
ugliest aspect of Original sin is its transmission
from the first man to his descendants and; from
generation to generation to the entire human race: a
hereditary transmission as a state and sickness of
human nature and as a personal guilt of every man."

This seems to aledge that we carry personal guilt for the original sin (which I understood to be a Catholic doctrine).

Can you explain whether this does or doesn't say that and why?

Dear Kharaku, it's a good question. First, it's a mistake to say that the Roman Catholic Church teaches that we carry personal guilt, at least in the way many Orthodox understand them to teach. Here's what their Catechism, which is the current standard of teaching, says:

"Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin..."[9]

I have some issues with some of the wording in the larger context of that passage, but I don't fundamentally disagree with this. There has been a lot of scholastic influence on both Greek and Russian thought. I take many of the critiques of this kind of explanation of original sin as part of this movement away from "the Latin captivity" of Orthodox church theology (as Fr. Florovsky says). I do think sometimes people take it too far in the other direction.

The RC Catechism also states:

406 The Church's teaching on the transmission of original sin was articulated more precisely in the fifth century, especially under the impulse of St. Augustine's reflections against Pelagianism, and in the sixteenth century, in opposition to the Protestant Reformation. Pelagius held that man could, by the natural power of free will and without the necessary help of God's grace, lead a morally good life; he thus reduced the influence of Adam's fault to bad example. The first Protestant reformers, on the contrary, taught that original sin has radically perverted man and destroyed his freedom; they identified the sin inherited by each man with the tendency to evil (concupiscentia), which would be insurmountable. The Church pronounced on the meaning of the data of Revelation on original sin especially at the second Council of Orange (529) and at the Council of Trent (1546).

This could help explain the different emphasis in the Orthodox tradition. Although Pelagius and his teaching were condemned at an Ecumenical Council, the battle between Augustine and Pelagius remained mainly a Western issue. The RC Catechism defends Augustine's position while carefully avoiding some of the more extreme ("total depravity") interpretations of the Reformers which virtually nullify the idea of human freedom, or cooperation with God.

I think what we can understand Frangopoulos to be saying (to put a positive spin on it), is that we have all died in Adam and, through the Fall, have become citizens of the kingdom of darkness. We must die to Adam - not just clean things up, but die - and be reborn into new life in Christ. This is our justification (as we say during the Baptismal service), and the foundation of Church life.

Original Sin Question

I guess my question is two fold. And I think you answered well the discrepency between the Roman and Orthodox churches with regard to the CCC

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam "as one body of one man".293 By this "unity of the human race" all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as all are implicated in Christ's justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" - a state and not an act.

I'm still unclear though as to whether the Orthodox view is that we inherit personal guilt for the original sin. I'm not so concerned with the Roman idealogy so much as whether the Orthodox beleive we inherit personal guilt, and if so why this doesn't require a doctrine like the Immaculate Conception.