Zeitgeist Movement Discussion

If anyone has any questions about the Zeitgeist Movement, I would be happy to answer them, as much as I can. I've been in the movement only a short
time, but I independently discovered the works of R. Buckminster Fuller as a young man and have been working to make his Design Science Revolution
come about for nearly 40 years, and it's the same idea as the Zeitgeist Movement.

the main thing to remember is that the ZM is not an ideology, so pigeonholing it in some past 'ism' is just blinding the mind to what it really is.
In fact, it is just an idea right now, and in it's formulating phase. Everyone is invited to add their ideas into it. Also, the stated purpose of the
ZM is to eliminate intimidation and coercion in our lives, especially by institutions, and to give everyone more freedom than anyone now even
imagines. We have good reason to think this is possible. We have no 'authorities' or 'power elites' and we want to get rid of the power of the
elites who are making everyone scared and directing everyone's lives. We will not hurt or coerce even them.

Only a good means can create a good end.

The ideas are pretty radical, but please understand that nothing will be imposed by force. We want a decent safe world for our grandchildren's
grandchildren to grow up in, and an environment worth living in. If something like the ZM isn't implemented, we might well be destroyed by the same
Mass Extinction Event that Humanity has imposed upon Nature in the last few centuries. We want to turn that around. It won't be easy, but then again,
it might be easier than most people think. Everyone, from the richest to the poorest will benefit by the changes we propose. Ask and I'll try to
answer any questions or fears you have.

There is no system, and there is never ever going to be such a system in place. Its a scam, there is nothing to discuss, they are so onesided in
thought about how great such a system whould be, yet do not take in the HUMAN factor. I say no discussion is needed and to promote such a system and
be controlled by computers at birth by implantation of a computer chip is quite strange and unnatural and not natural at all.

Always seem to be putting myself where is does not belong, like this thread about a treasonist act to take over the Government. The Venus project is a
dead issue and there is nothing to discuss. Its a scam.

There is no system, and there is never ever going to be such a system in place. It’s a scam, there is nothing to discuss, they are so onesided in
thought about how great such a system would be, yet do not take in the HUMAN factor. [edit on 4/20/2009 by zman]

You obviously missed the point about the Venus project, the zeitgeist movement and what they represent. In our current society there will always be
problems for humanity, be it war, poverty, crime, they are literally built into the system and caused mainly by scarcity, what the Venus project
proposes is to raise the standard of living for people all over the planet by eliminating scarcity through technological advancement. Most jobs in the
world today could be done far more efficiently by a machine, making the need for human labor obsolete. This is already happening today, creating ever
higher unemployment. Advanced farming techniques such as aquaponics can produce food anywhere without the need for top soil, these farms could even be
built vertically, thus also making it a viable option where land availability is limited. Through these methods it is possible to create an abundance
of food and other resources all over the world. And keeping in mind the so called "Law of supply and demand" anything that is in high enough supply
is not worth selling, because it is impossible to make a profit from it. So with the need for labor eliminated due to automatisation and the
necessities of life being abundantly available, there would no longer be any need for money.

Originally posted by zman
I say no discussion is needed and to promote such a system and be controlled by computers at birth by implantation of a computer chip is quite strange
and unnatural and not natural at all.
[edit on 4/20/2009 by zman]

I think you're confusing the Venus project with the NWO RFID chips, if you're talking about something else I'd like to see your sources on it,
because this is the first I've ever heard about chips being implanted into people in an RBE society.

There is no system, and there is never ever going to be such a system in place. It’s a scam, there is nothing to discuss, they are so onesided in
thought about how great such a system would be, yet do not take in the HUMAN factor. [edit on 4/20/2009 by zman]

You obviously missed the point about the Venus project, the zeitgeist movement and what they represent. In our current society there will always be
problems for humanity, be it war, poverty, crime, they are literally built into the system and caused mainly by scarcity, what the Venus project
proposes is to raise the standard of living for people all over the planet by eliminating scarcity through technological advancement. Most jobs in the
world today could be done far more efficiently by a machine, making the need for human labor obsolete. This is already happening today, creating ever
higher unemployment. Advanced farming techniques such as aquaponics can produce food anywhere without the need for top soil, these farms could even be
built vertically, thus also making it a viable option where land availability is limited. Through these methods it is possible to create an abundance
of food and other resources all over the world. And keeping in mind the so called "Law of supply and demand" anything that is in high enough supply
is not worth selling, because it is impossible to make a profit from it. So with the need for labor eliminated due to automatisation and the
necessities of life being abundantly available, there would no longer be any need for money.

Originally posted by zman
I say no discussion is needed and to promote such a system and be controlled by computers at birth by implantation of a computer chip is quite strange
and unnatural and not natural at all.
[edit on 4/20/2009 by zman]

I think you're confusing the Venus project with the NWO RFID chips, if you're talking about something else I'd like to see your sources on it,
because this is the first I've ever heard about chips being implanted into people in an RBE society.

Demon1109

No I am afraid that you are misstaken, it does mention implantation of a computer at birth. These books that it has also portry that type of system,
if you could please go to this thread and answer all my questions about your system.www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by zman
No I am afraid that you are misstaken, it does mention implantation of a computer at birth. These books that it has also portry that type of system,
if you could please go to this thread and answer all my questions about your system.www.abovetopsecret.com...

I found the reference to 'implantation of a computer at birth'. Yes, that book does mention that. But it is a Sci Fi futurist book that is on the
Venus Project website because Jacque Fresco was one of it's authors. It was written a long time ago, and while some of the ideas in that book are
part of the Venus Project and the Zeitguist Movement., the 'implantation' is not part of the Venus Project nor the Zeitguist Movement.

One problem I see is the EGO factor as I am a bit unsecure the someone could become corrupted and take hold of a particular infrastructure of a RBE
society.

When I say infrastrutture I refer for example the net. Assuming food, water, technology, medical aid and other materials need are met with abundance,
Education is still far behind in its fight against ignorance. IMO

One flame is still lit and that is the internets !

and I am afraid that in a RBE this insfrastructure could be open for hacking by a third party with ulteriors motives, besides de disemination of
information across the human race to increase our awareness of the depth of human thought.

To the OP: Send me some information on how to get involved. I do believe in most of the concepts of this movement you speak about. I do worry about
people attempting to hijack a movement, twist it to only one vision, without having other input. The Zietgiest idea is flawed but the foundation for
it I think is the right way forward.

Politically I'm a mixed bag. But one thing I think most parties miss...and some call it socialism is that a society must take care of it's own.
Providing shelter, clothing, medicine, and food for all should be the first goal of any society. That is the extent that any government body should be
involved in an individuals affairs. A government that is comprised of the people thats only job is to provide for the people on a basic level.

I think the Zeitgeist movement is great. One of the views the Zeitgeist movement explains clearly is money. I think one of the reason why money is an
important issue is that money is the prime reasons why most people suffer in this world. So I have a question for everyone.

Can society function without money in the twenty first century?
I say Yes.

To understand why i said yes, one must look at the primitive age. In the primitive age, society had function by exchanging human labor for money;
consequently, the exchange has led to many problems from pushing worker to their limit, using child labor, and exporting women. Despite those extreme
work ethics and condition, the society had to used these extreme work ethics to complete things. There is no other ways to accomplished things without
human labor. (If i remember my history correctly) for example, during the Gilded Age, business men used child labor to grab the unwanted material from
the cotton (I think it is cotton) machines, or they used women and forced them to work for more than ten hours a day. Additionally, the founding
father of the constitution used slaves to farm for them (in this example no exchanges was needed because of ownership of slaves). The last example, a
book, "The Jungle," which descriptive tells about the meat packaging industry, stirs the public to create laws; eventually lead to Food and Drug
Administration, child labor laws, and women rights. The prime reasons to use such techniques is to save a buck and invest in other things. Keep in
mind that business did not have the advance technology and machines that the twenty first century has today.
Let move on to the twenty first century and see why I said yes. If humans have the technology to replace humans labor, and if everyone
incentive is too care for the earth resource and each others, and if money is not the primitive reasons to achieve a higher standard of reasons, can
one tell me the reasons why the society needs to function with money anymore? A cotton factory does not needs to use a child labor when a machine can
picks the stuff better than us. Today, the farm industry can grow livestock without the use of hormone and chemical, and does not have to feed the
livestock cardboard box and junks. Additionally, the Farm industry does not need to use pesticide and these unwanted chemicals to grow crops when
there is betters ways. For example, we should build a condition area to grows crops, obviously this is expensive in a monetary system, but the earth
has the resource for such.
Another problems that money has is the state of competition; however, people do not need to be competitive with each other. For example,
Apple came out from sharing information together instead of competition. When the first computer came out to the public, the computer club form to
talk furiously about the computer. Eventually, a person in the club slowly created a computer, known as the Apple, to fits his standard
I believe in this age we have the technology to solve most of our human labor problems; therefore, money is irreverent in our society if
we used technology to serve human kind instead of war or private use. I think that humans has been thinking of money so much, he forgets that money is
not important anymore in the twenty-first century. If the world financial collapse, and all prices skyrocket upward, hopefully people will see the
earth is still spinning, factories still functioning, food is still supply in the market. money just became irreverent.

After registering, a pull down menu has FORUM link so you can join the discussion.

Remember, this is an idea only, not an organization or a 'plan' or any of that. This is a movement, which means it is trying to get a new and
practical idea out into Human awareness globally, not any kind of NWO or political plan. The details of what people want to do have not been expressed
yet, for with all the people in the world, nobody can really even imagine what will be decided on during what I call the Transformation. However, I
really think that seeing the world in a new way and approaching all the problems caused by the existing systems is better than posting fear driven
(and fear dripping) messages that merely scare people without any new course to take.

The ZM and other movements like it are the only plausible solution to the ancient insanity we find ourselves living in on this planet.

In some of the forums I participate in, when answering questions about
the Zeitgeist Movement, I get statements like 'Why abandon a proven
system like the existing ways of the world to implement a system that
has never existed? I'd have to see some proof of it before I would
ever even consider it.'

My response:

First, the Zeitgeist vision is just an idea, a concept of how to do
things better. Being a new way of doing things which has not been
tried means there cannot be any 'proof' of it yet.

Second, the existing ways of the world have produced the world we live
in, and anyone who thinks that the world situation in terms of almost
any criteria you can name is 'proof' that the existing systems work is
simply not paying attention.

Even if the existing systems work for you, give you what you think you
want, on the larger levels it will eventually be taken away from you
or your descendants by environmental degradation, political unrest,
manipulation by 'authorities', violent or 'soft' crime, or preventable
illness. What is proved is that the existing systems do not work for
the vast majority of the people on this planet in any terms
whatsoever, and therefore innovation in social and technological
concepts is required to eliminate those unworkable factors, or even
the satisfied 'successful' individual may well become one of the
poverty stricken masses, despite their best personal efforts.

The Zeitgeist Movement is about the unworkable aspects of our existing
system and will, we think, provide a more workable alternative to the
failing existing systems for every individual, even those who delude
themselves that everything is 'hunky dory' in their lives.

Why do we think that?

…Because we can see the historical record of the results of the
development of technology, and both the benefits and social/
environmental costs of technological development.

And when we look at that historical record, it becomes obvious that
the benefits comes from the leverage technology produces, which grows
constantly and allows us to do more with less constantly. The costs of
that development does not come from that development but from the
social systems we use, like economics and politics, which are ancient
pre-technological forms of feudalism. Every negative result of the use
of technology can be found in the way people applied the technology,
not the technology itself.

Environmental destruction, for instance, is the result of generating
the least possible effort to get the maximum amount of profit, a
process called 'expediency'. It's more expedient to dump by-products
of a technological process into a river than discover and design a way
to use those by-products, called 'waste', or contain them safely. All
the forms of dangerous, stupid, foolish pollution come from that
cultural use of expediency, which is a fundamental part of
'economics'.

As long as there was unclaimed land to dump on, and the system
prevented the social control organization called 'politics' from
holding anyone responsible for the pollution they generated, the
pollution continued unabated. In modern times, the accumulated total
pollution finally became so intense, the political system had to face
the reality that the health, environmental, and quality of life was
degrading rapidly because of that expedient profit oriented way of
thinking and acting. BUT since the overall system is 'economic',
including politics, and in 'economic' system values, profit is the
only real consideration, more important than life itself, the existing
systems cannot do what is required even for the survival of our
species.

It is said that stupidity is the constant reenactment of failed
efforts in the blind hope that a different result will occur. This is
why history seems to repeat itself over and over again, until we can
no longer afford to continue the constantly failing methods of the
past... The very environment itself cannot support our stupidity.

The Venus project is awful. Whoever came up with the idea has no real idea about how the world works, or does and is being deceitful. Take your
pick, can't really prove or disprove motives.

It talks about getting rid of the "elites", but the system itself creates elite positions. What is it that creates the elites of the world?
centralization of power. What that means is the the power and decision making is done by only a few at the top. The more things are
centralized, the more power the elites get.

And this is exactly what the venus project proposes. It basically says, lets use this system and everything will be great! Everyone gets the
resources they need blah blah blah. But what is ignored is who gets to decide where those resources goes and who needs what.

The part about the federal reserve is right on the money, but it's a bait and switch. What the fed does currently is steals/leeches resources. It
adds money, buys up resources through corportions and so forth. This allows them to decide who gets the big loans and who doesn't, and of course
also who succeeds and who does this. This is fact and there is no denying it.

However, what the venus project proposes to do is basically give all the resources to the elite. And that is the switch. So rather than
them having to steal the resources, we just give them up.

And while what is said may sound good, and you likely imagine the system running as you would do it. And so people support it. But the reality of
the game is for you to simply give away control of these things. While you may give it up to someone who seems and may want to do great things,
it's just a GWB away from the opposite. And since you have given up all this control - what do you expect to do about it?

You can't just look at things from a perspective of what you would do in power. You have to look at things from what things are possible among
however is in power, even a GWB. The Venus project fails completely in doing this, thus it is nothing but a pipe dream or scam.

Do you know what hollow words are? They are statements like "We are going to give everyone good healthcare". Why is that hollow? Because it is
non-specific and general. And so you fill up those hollow words with your own meaning. What you consider "good healthcare" might not be what
you actually get. If they aren't hollow words, then the system itself will be explained so that the people themselves don't need to fill up the
meaning.

Don't fall for hollow words please. Politicians use them all the time, they are nothing but hollow words. It gets them elected because it is
much easier to please someone when they put in their own meanings to things.

Power to the people means decentralization. The more things are decentralized, then the more freedom the person has and the more choices they are
able to make. Rather than a few elites over everything, people themselves are the ones in power.

If you want a better system, then read and learn how the US constitution is actually supposed to work today, vs what the politicians do. And read
up on colonial scripts for a valid form of currency.

Btw, shouldn't the fact they call it "venus project", which is an obvious play to lucifer while at the same time talking about being such things
send off alarm bells in your head? I mean, even if you don't believe in the bible and stuff, shouldn't the fact they are making known reference to
these things bother someone? Afterall, if they aren't about religion and such then why choose a name based on it?

Originally posted by Worldmind
First, the Zeitgeist vision is just an idea, a concept of how to do
things better. Being a new way of doing things which has not been
tried means there cannot be any 'proof' of it yet.

Actually you just need to learn and understand the US constitution. You are dismissing it based on what people do in the US today, not what it says.
They are not following it, so it is unfair to say it doesn't work. The people themselves are to blame for not making politicians stick to the
system, and that will remain a problem in any system.

Second, the existing ways of the world have produced the world we live
in, and anyone who thinks that the world situation in terms of almost
any criteria you can name is 'proof' that the existing systems work is
simply not paying attention.

Pointing fingers at others is not validation for yourself. Just because I can point out how bad Saddam is, it doesn't make me the good guy. You
speak of not paying attention, but yet you are making the same mistakes as what we already have. This is otherwise known as status quo

Even if the existing systems work for you, give you what you think you
want, on the larger levels it will eventually be taken away from you
or your descendants by environmental degradation, political unrest,
manipulation by 'authorities', violent or 'soft' crime, or preventable
illness. What is proved is that the existing systems do not work for
the vast majority of the people on this planet in any terms
whatsoever, and therefore innovation in social and technological
concepts is required to eliminate those unworkable factors, or even
the satisfied 'successful' individual may well become one of the
poverty stricken masses, despite their best personal efforts.

Same thing as above, pointing out problems does not mean another system is better. It's like choosing between getting kicked in the groin by a
bull or a horse. This is more status quo, and putting people into a dualistic mindset.

The Zeitgeist Movement is about the unworkable aspects of our existing
system and will, we think, provide a more workable alternative to the
failing existing systems for every individual, even those who delude
themselves that everything is 'hunky dory' in their lives.

Hollow words.

Why do we think that?

…Because we can see the historical record of the results of the
development of technology, and both the benefits and social/
environmental costs of technological development.

And when we look at that historical record, it becomes obvious that
the benefits comes from the leverage technology produces, which grows
constantly and allows us to do more with less constantly. The costs of
that development does not come from that development but from the
social systems we use, like economics and politics, which are ancient
pre-technological forms of feudalism. Every negative result of the use
of technology can be found in the way people applied the technology,
not the technology itself.

Isn't it kind of the obvious that better technology makes things better? Are you trying to claim a monopoly on such a thing? If you look at the
history of the US, you will notice that when the constitution was being followed properly and better, and when things were decentralized it grew to
being the worlds biggest power. Since WW2(before technically, 1913) that trend reversed to centralization of power. Before the centralization of
power the US was number 1 in just about every measure. Did this piece of history just magically escape you? Why would you prescribe more
centralization to a problem where centralization is the cause? Isn't that like giving someone the swine flu in order to combat the common cold?

Environmental destruction, for instance, is the result of generating
the least possible effort to get the maximum amount of profit, a
process called 'expediency'. It's more expedient to dump by-products
of a technological process into a river than discover and design a way
to use those by-products, called 'waste', or contain them safely. All
the forms of dangerous, stupid, foolish pollution come from that
cultural use of expediency, which is a fundamental part of
'economics'.

Pollution should be illegal period. If a company pollutes, it should have to pay restitution to the people they effect. Nobody should have the
right to pollute another persons environment period. While it might not happen over night, this should be the fact of the matter. Government
regulations and all those things merely goes to decide who can legally pollute. It actually legalizes it, not the opposite.

This has nothing to do with any system.

As long as there was unclaimed land to dump on, and the system
prevented the social control organization called 'politics' from
holding anyone responsible for the pollution they generated, the
pollution continued unabated. In modern times, the accumulated total
pollution finally became so intense, the political system had to face
the reality that the health, environmental, and quality of life was
degrading rapidly because of that expedient profit oriented way of
thinking and acting. BUT since the overall system is 'economic',
including politics, and in 'economic' system values, profit is the
only real consideration, more important than life itself, the existing
systems cannot do what is required even for the survival of our
species.

It is said that stupidity is the constant reenactment of failed
efforts in the blind hope that a different result will occur. This is
why history seems to repeat itself over and over again, until we can
no longer afford to continue the constantly failing methods of the
past... The very environment itself cannot support our stupidity.

But you offer nothing different. It's not really a new system at all, it's just more status quo and promises. Just a change in power, no real
change in where that power is.

Originally posted by badmedia
It talks about getting rid of the "elites", but the system itself creates elite positions. What is it that creates the elites of the world?
centralization of power. What that means is the the power and decision making is done by only a few at the top. The more things are
centralized, the more power the elites get.

As long as you 'pigeonhole' the concepts in existing systems of power justification, you cannot understand what I'm saying. There are no elites
proposed by the Venus project ideas. You are projecting the existing dynamics of political and economic power onto the ideas of the Venus Project and
the Zeitgeist Movement.

And this is exactly what the Venus Project proposes. But what is ignored is who gets to decide where those resources goes and who needs
what.

The people who have the need or the desire for something will be who decides and gets what they need or desire, with the only limit being the
resources necessary to produce those needs or desires. There is no need for someone else to decide who gets what. Certainly the Constitutions of the
world set up centralized power elites who decide that, including the USA's constitution. We don't find that to be necessary.

However, what the venus project proposes to do is basically give all the resources to the elite. And that is the switch. So rather
than them having to steal the resources, we just give them up.

This is pure projection of the current systems onto the ZM/VP idea, nothing more.

You have to look at things from what things are possible among however is in power, even a GWB. The Venus project fails completely in doing
this, thus it is nothing but a pipe dream or scam.

That is because you think there will be an 'elite' in power. You seem to see it as somehow the only way it can be. Frankly, if you think that, then
you cannot get the slightest grip on what we are proposing.

Power to the people means decentralization. The more things are decentralized, then the more freedom the person has and the more choices they
are able to make. Rather than a few elites over everything, people themselves are the ones in power.

Exactly. The VP/ZM idea is to eliminate centralized power. The only place in the ZM where 'power' is centralized is in terms of computer systems
that control mass transit and the other common technological systems in cities, the same way our brains regulate our body systems. That is not a
political power base, nor is it what you seem to be calling 'rule by an elite'.

If you want a better system, then read and learn how the US constitution is actually supposed to work today, vs what the politicians do. And
read up on colonial scripts for a valid form of currency.

I've seen in my life what people can do to a constitution. Looking for legalisms to somehow support a better way of life and lower our impact upon
the environment is rather futile. And besides, wasn't the Constitution once seen as a 'pipe dream'? Wasn't it once just an idea that was poo-pood
by people all over the world? Do you think we can now come up with something better, which is more than just political?

Btw, shouldn't the fact they call it "venus project", which is an obvious play to lucifer while at the same time talking about being such
things send off alarm bells in your head? I mean, even if you don't believe in the bible and stuff, shouldn't the fact they are making known
reference to these things bother someone?

And, like most of the rest of your post, this also shows how little you understand of the ZM/VP. The Venus Project is named after the small town,
Venus Florida, near the house of one of the originators of the idea, nothing more. Reconsider what you consider 'obvious' please.

Originally posted by Worldmind
As long as you 'pigeonhole' the concepts in existing systems of power justification, you cannot understand what I'm saying. There are no elites
proposed by the Venus project ideas. You are projecting the existing dynamics of political and economic power onto the ideas of the Venus Project and
the Zeitgeist Movement.

A rose by any other name still smells the same. Who decides who gets what resources? Who decides who should be able to pollute and who isn't?
Who decides what educational classes should be taught? etc.

The people who have the need or the desire for something will be who decides and gets what they need or desire, with the only limit being the
resources necessary to produce those needs or desires. There is no need for someone else to decide who gets what. Certainly the Constitutions of the
world set up centralized power elites who decide that, including the USA's constitution. We don't find that to be necessary.

First you say those who have the need or desire for something decides and gets what they need. But then you go with the "catch". The limit being
"the resources necessary". So how does one decide the need or desire and then also the resources? You aren't giving a straight answer.
It's those who want get, but then it's limited, and then you say there is nobody to decide who gets what. So where does the limit come from?

The US constitution is not setup for the elites, quite the opposite. It is setup decentralized. Try reading the 9th and 10th amendments. If you
have researched these things so much, then you should at least know the proper way the constitution of the US is setup.

This is pure projection of the current systems onto the ZM/VP idea, nothing more.

No, it's the pure cold hard fact of the need for power and greed. I'm a programmer, and I design systems for a living. When I design systems I
have to not only look at the program when everything works properly and users enter and do things properly, but I also have to take into account when
users don't use the system properly. Failure to do so results in bugs, hacks and general corruption within the system. You fail to look at the
system you propose in any other light than every user doing exactly as told/envisioned. And sorry, but that is just asking for corruption and is to
be in lala land.

You can call it projecting, pigeon holing or whatever you want. But the simple fact is you have to call them those things because you haven't the
foggiest idea how to handle such things.

That is because you think there will be an 'elite' in power. You seem to see it as somehow the only way it can be. Frankly, if you think that, then
you cannot get the slightest grip on what we are proposing.

Elites are created by the power structure under them. Period. Without the power structure under them, the "elites" are just another average joe.
Therefore I do not care to identify "elites" or go on witch hunts about who is an "elite", but rather look for logical systems which simple get
rid of the function as a whole.

Exactly. The VP/ZM idea is to eliminate centralized power. The only place in the ZM where 'power' is centralized is in terms of computer systems
that control mass transit and the other common technological systems in cities, the same way our brains regulate our body systems. That is not a
political power base, nor is it what you seem to be calling 'rule by an elite'.

I'm a programmer, and I would never let a computer manage my life. EVER. Nor do I have any desire to travel "mass transit". You apparently
have a misguided idea about computers, programs and what is possible. Do you think a computer can actually understand something and decide things?
It's just following patterns over and over. It has no "reason", no "understanding". It just does whatever the programmer tells it. Plus, what
are you going to do when the computers screw up? Die?

And who is going to build these systems? The lowest bidder? Diebold?

I've seen in my life what people can do to a constitution. Looking for legalisms to somehow support a better way of life and lower our impact upon
the environment is rather futile. And besides, wasn't the Constitution once seen as a 'pipe dream'? Wasn't it once just an idea that was poo-pood
by people all over the world? Do you think we can now come up with something better, which is more than just political?

And it doesn't matter what system it is if the people don't force those in charge to uphold it. The constitution wasn't seen as a pipe dream, it
was seen as something which wasn't possible under the monarchy of the day.

Honestly, I'd rather die than be subjected to the ignorance of this system. You sit here and talk about things not being political, but everything
about it is political. Who the heck do you think you are kidding?

And, like most of the rest of your post, this also shows how little you understand of the ZM/VP. The Venus Project is named after the small town,
Venus Florida, near the house of one of the originators of the idea, nothing more. Reconsider what you consider 'obvious' please.

Right, and the circles have nothing to do with atlantis either? Just some random pattern from the neighbors garden.

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