I hope so, last thing we need is more fractionation when what open source drivers we have now are not that great. If linux if going to be a viable open gaming platform a lot of effort is needed in the video department.

X is a horible windowing system. A more stable and better designed system, might get more developers involved with linux.

Nobody disputes that. The problem is with Ubuntu going with their own bespoke (and not very good) solution rather than contributing to the community effort to replace X.

I hate Ubuntu. They are trying to hard not to be Linux. They roll their own Desktop, Unity, which is fine if you happen to like it, but then they don't include other Desktops in their Repositories. That's why I use Fedora. I hate their GNOME3 implementation, so I install KDE and call it a day. It is a very easy smooth process. For the last 4 years it has become aperant that Ubuntu is more interested in creating a very unique "Ubuntu" experience, while telling the rest of the Open Source world to go pound sand.

X is a horible windowing system. A more stable and better designed system, might get more developers involved with linux.

Nobody disputes that. The problem is with Ubuntu going with their own bespoke (and not very good) solution rather than contributing to the community effort to replace X.

I hate Ubuntu. They are trying to hard not to be Linux. They roll their own Desktop, Unity, which is fine if you happen to like it, but then they don't include other Desktops in their Repositories. That's why I use Fedora. I hate their GNOME3 implementation, so I install KDE and call it a day. It is a very easy smooth process. For the last 4 years it has become aperant that Ubuntu is more interested in creating a very unique "Ubuntu" experience, while telling the rest of the Open Source world to go pound sand.

Umm...yeah, that's why there is Xbuntu, Kbuntu, Lbuntu, etc. because Ubuntu doesn't care about choice or open source.

I hate Ubuntu. They are trying to hard not to be Linux. They roll their own Desktop, Unity, which is fine if you happen to like it, but then they don't include other Desktops in their Repositories.

Huh?

KDE, XFCE, Gnome3, I'm sure several others, are all in the repositories. There's one master package for each - install that and then, bam, you've got a different desktop.

For instance, if you want the KDE desktop instead of Unity, you install the package "kubuntu-desktop". That install everything you need for K, and then you select it as your default session at the login screen. Then you never have to see Unity again.

I get that a lot of Linux users don't like Ubuntu, for various different reasons, but at least know what you're talking about before you claim something like this.

X is a horible windowing system. A more stable and better designed system, might get more developers involved with linux.

Nobody disputes that. The problem is with Ubuntu going with their own bespoke (and not very good) solution rather than contributing to the community effort to replace X.

I dispute it. I dispute the idea that dumping X will magically change anything. I dispute the idea that something else will be better. It's likely that features will get dropped on the floor because developers are out of touch with the real world. They have a 90s idea of the desktop to go with their 90s anti-X FUD.

I'm fine with an actual X replacement. Wayland and Mir aren't that. And Mir is the poster child for needless forking and fragmentation.

I hate Ubuntu. They are trying to hard not to be Linux. They roll their own Desktop, Unity, which is fine if you happen to like it, but then they don't include other Desktops in their Repositories.

Yes they do. You can get the Canonical-flavored versions of KDE, Gnome, Xfce, and LXDE (k/x/lubuntu-desktop and ubuntu-gnome-desktop packages) or you can get something fairly vanilla (e.g. the package named xfce4 instead of xubuntu-desktop). You can also download the specific DE versioned *buntu flavor iso you want.

On another note, Gnome pushed back full Wayland support from the 3.12 release. Might be ready to go by 3.14, though. *double edit* ack, ninja'd!

X is a horible windowing system. A more stable and better designed system, might get more developers involved with linux.

Wayland is the accepted replacement for X11, designed for modern graphics card architectures. The required underlying support in the kernel, graphics drivers, UI frameworks and window managers has been progressing well. IIUC, Wayland is now stable and useable, with UI frameworks and window managers gaining support for it.

The Jolla and Sailfish mobile phone OSes are using Wayland.

Canonical decided to create their own display manager while Wayland was being developed and make use of the infrastructure created by Wayland and base XMir on XWayland. This was done to speed up replacement of X11 and targeting mobile devices.

I typically support the moves made by Canonical / the Ubuntu community - I'm one of those Linux users who likes Unity.

But as far as Mir goes, I'd rather have just seen them focus on Wayland development. I understand that one of the great things about open source is that you can write whatever you want, and maybe there really are some benefits to it for their specific use case scenario, but I feel like the display server is something that should be unified across the board.

It's not quite like forking the kernel and splitting development off that way, but the display server is a huge part of Linux, and with competing standards for it, no one wins. Just like has been said in the article - driver support for Mir is practically nonexistent. But companies are happily working on Wayland support.

Unless a lot of other distros decide to pick up Mir - which seems unlikely - it's going to be even more work for Canonical, since they'll have to roll their own altered versions of display drivers, and more work for the community, because the only place to look for help would be with other Ubuntu users, not the Linux community at large.

Notably, an Intel developer expressed his company's displeasure by refusing to accept Xmir patches into the company's open source graphics driver.

This is pretty dishonest. The reason the patches were rejected is because they should be maintained in the downstream version which is the right approach. Since there has been no support for mir outside of ubuntu, ubuntu should accept the responsibility of maintaining the mir compatibility.

He rejected the patch because thats how OSS works, not because he hates mir (although he probably hates mir too)

I typically support the moves made by Canonical / the Ubuntu community - I'm one of those Linux users who likes Unity.

But as far as Mir goes, I'd rather have just seen them focus on Wayland development. I understand that one of the great things about open source is that you can write whatever you want, and maybe there really are some benefits to it for their specific use case scenario, but I feel like the display server is something that should be unified across the board.

It's not quite like forking the kernel and splitting development off that way, but the display server is a huge part of Linux, and with competing standards for it, no one wins. Just like has been said in the article - driver support for Mir is practically nonexistent. But companies are happily working on Wayland support.

Unless a lot of other distros decide to pick up Mir - which seems unlikely - it's going to be even more work for Canonical, since they'll have to roll their own altered versions of display drivers, and more work for the community, because the only place to look for help would be with other Ubuntu users, not the Linux community at large.

To say no support has been created is dishonest. SDL which is a widely used toolkit will gain Mir support very soon.(it may already have it, I haven't checked in a while) I imagine other toolkits will eventually support it after wayland support is finished.

I dispute it. I dispute the idea that dumping X will magically change anything. I dispute the idea that something else will be better. It's likely that features will get dropped on the floor because developers are out of touch with the real world. They have a 90s idea of the desktop to go with their 90s anti-X FUD.

With the disclaimer that I am an end user and not a developer, I agree fully.

I hate Ubuntu. They are trying to hard not to be Linux. They roll their own Desktop, Unity, which is fine if you happen to like it, but then they don't include other Desktops in their Repositories.

Huh?

KDE, XFCE, Gnome3, I'm sure several others, are all in the repositories. There's one master package for each - install that and then, bam, you've got a different desktop.

For instance, if you want the KDE desktop instead of Unity, you install the package "kubuntu-desktop". That install everything you need for K, and then you select it as your default session at the login screen. Then you never have to see Unity again.

I get that a lot of Linux users don't like Ubuntu, for various different reasons, but at least know what you're talking about before you claim something like this.

He's still kind of right. Ubuntu doesn't ship with a traditional Linux package manager in easy access. Instead they have a sort of App Store with a very limited selection of software to install. You have to pull up a commandline and apt-get synaptics if you want a traditional gui package manager, which is not at all intuitive to new users. In fact there's very little of Unity that's intuitive for new users, it's a major problem with the thing.

I hate Ubuntu. They are trying to hard not to be Linux. They roll their own Desktop, Unity, which is fine if you happen to like it, but then they don't include other Desktops in their Repositories.

Yes they do. You can get the Canonical-flavored versions of KDE, Gnome, Xfce, and LXDE (k/x/lubuntu-desktop and ubuntu-gnome-desktop packages) or you can get something fairly vanilla (e.g. the package named xfce4 instead of xubuntu-desktop). You can also download the specific DE versioned *buntu flavor iso you want.

On another note, Gnome pushed back full Wayland support from the 3.12 release. Might be ready to go by 3.14, though. *double edit* ack, ninja'd!

"Canonical Flavored" being the key argument there. What if you just want the basic KDE, and don't want to have to worry about downloading 5 thousand other Ubuntu ripoffs just to get some hacked desktop package you like better than unity.

X is a horible windowing system. A more stable and better designed system, might get more developers involved with linux.

Nobody disputes that. The problem is with Ubuntu going with their own bespoke (and not very good) solution rather than contributing to the community effort to replace X.

I dispute it. I dispute the idea that dumping X will magically change anything. I dispute the idea that something else will be better. It's likely that features will get dropped on the floor because developers are out of touch with the real world. They have a 90s idea of the desktop to go with their 90s anti-X FUD.

I'm fine with an actual X replacement. Wayland and Mir aren't that. And Mir is the poster child for needless forking and fragmentation.

you dispute it because you are uninformed, that is the only possible reason for you to dispute that wayland is better than x.

First off Wayland isn't a display server, its a display server PROTOCOL. X was an overly complicated and bloated display server that took way more responsibilities than it should have, (why does a display server handle printing, can you logically explain that?)

I could go on and on about why it's a good idea to start over with wayland over trying to improve x but if you don't know by 2014 you probably just don't want to know.

Yes they do. You can get the Canonical-flavored versions of KDE, Gnome, Xfce, and LXDE (k/x/lubuntu-desktop and ubuntu-gnome-desktop packages) or you can get something fairly vanilla (e.g. the package named xfce4 instead of xubuntu-desktop). ...

"Canonical Flavored" being the key argument there. What if you just want the basic KDE, and don't want to have to worry about downloading 5 thousand other Ubuntu ripoffs just to get some hacked desktop package you like better than unity.

Notably, an Intel developer expressed his company's displeasure by refusing to accept Xmir patches into the company's open source graphics driver.

This is pretty dishonest. The reason the patches were rejected is because they should be maintained in the downstream version which is the right approach. Since there has been no support for mir outside of ubuntu, ubuntu should accept the responsibility of maintaining the mir compatibility.

He rejected the patch because thats how OSS works, not because he hates mir (although he probably hates mir too)

Intel is investing on wayland for their mobile projects . There is obviously a conflict of commercial interest there .

For Instance if you want to use KDE with Fedora or RHEL, you just type "yum install KDE-desktop". If you want cinnamon, you type "yum install cinnamon". And on login you can switch between desktops if one day you wan to use KDE and the next day you wan to use GNOME the other. You shouldn't have to install a whole *buntu OS just to get a desktop you like. You don't see people installing Kedora just to get KDE or Xedora to use XFCE. It's madness!

Notably, an Intel developer expressed his company's displeasure by refusing to accept Xmir patches into the company's open source graphics driver.

This is pretty dishonest. The reason the patches were rejected is because they should be maintained in the downstream version which is the right approach. Since there has been no support for mir outside of ubuntu, ubuntu should accept the responsibility of maintaining the mir compatibility.

He rejected the patch because thats how OSS works, not because he hates mir (although he probably hates mir too)

Intel's statement was: "We do not condone or support Canonical in the course of action they have chosen, and will not carry XMir patches upstream." That was the only reason Intel provided for its decision to reject the patch.

For Instance if you want to use KDE with Fedora or RHEL, you just type "yum install KDE-desktop". If you want cinnamon, you type "yum install cinnamon". And on login you can switch between desktops if one day you wan to use KDE and the next day you wan to use GNOME the other. You shouldn't have to install a whole *buntu OS just to get a desktop you like. You don't see people installing Kedora just to get KDE or Xedora to use XFCE. It's madness!

apt-get install kubuntu-desktop

Done.

For that matter, if you start with Kubuntu, you can apt-get install ubuntu-desktop and get Unity. It works pretty much exactly the same way; Kubuntu, Xubuntu and such just save you the time if you intend to, eg, go with KDE from the get-go.

ETA: What they don't get you is "vanilla" KDE or Xfce, but you wouldn't get that with any distro as they (almost, can't speak for Slackware) all apply distribution-specific packages. Even on FreeBSD, a make/make install in ports will install a slightly customized version. If you want package, it's a download-the-source-and-build-it-yourself affair.

Wouldn't it be easier for a linux foundation to raise money and buy out a company like amd. Than, open source all drivers including parts that might violate patents and then just deal with the consequences later. This way wayland development will be a lot faster and easier to deal with.

Wouldn't it be easier for a linux foundation to raise money and buy out a company like amd. Than, open source all drivers including parts that might violate patents and then just deal with the consequences later. This way wayland development will be a lot faster and easier to deal with.

I don't know that the Linux Foundation could afford to buy a hardware company - much less be able to actually manage said hardware company without driving it into the ground.

There's lots of reasons why that will let us support more hardware, let us get much better performance, and let us do great things with some of the software companies we care about, who want to squeeze every bit of performance out of the hardware you've got.

... but he doesn't list any of the reasons? Sort of makes the statement sound like useless marketing hype w/o some exposition.

Also ... reinventing the wheel takes longer then they expected. Imagine that.

For Instance if you want to use KDE with Fedora or RHEL, you just type "yum install KDE-desktop". If you want cinnamon, you type "yum install cinnamon". And on login you can switch between desktops if one day you wan to use KDE and the next day you wan to use GNOME the other. You shouldn't have to install a whole *buntu OS just to get a desktop you like. You don't see people installing Kedora just to get KDE or Xedora to use XFCE. It's madness!

Code:

sudo apt-get install xfce4

Done. It's not Xubuntu you're getting, btw, that'd be:

Code:

sudo apt-get install xubuntu-desktop.

Also, if you're switching to a different *buntu from the one you installed, you don't have to "install a whole *buntu OS." The command above just installs the *buntu-flavored desktop environment and its default applications on top of your existing install. You can switch between them at login.

Wouldn't it be easier for a linux foundation to raise money and buy out a company like amd. Than, open source all drivers including parts that might violate patents and then just deal with the consequences later. This way wayland development will be a lot faster and easier to deal with.

I don't know that the Linux Foundation could afford to buy a hardware company - much less be able to actually manage said hardware company without driving it into the ground.

I think the Linux Foundation could start by creating and maintaining an open-hardware database of designs folks could use, improve upon, etc, w/o users having to worry about licensing fees. If they could team with or point folks to a company that could print or manufacture the open-hardware from the spec they're working on / choose, that'd be a bonus.

I think we're reaching the age of micro-manufacturing (where making one-offs and such is cheap enough to do that you don't have to order 100's or 1000's of a part just to get 1 to play with).

X is a horible windowing system. A more stable and better designed system, might get more developers involved with linux.

Nobody disputes that. The problem is with Ubuntu going with their own bespoke (and not very good) solution rather than contributing to the community effort to replace X.

And by community you mean Intel and Red Hat? Because there is no community any more. It's just bunch of companies doing whatever they want. From that perspective Canonical did the only thing that is best for them - they separated the drivers from the display server. If Intel and RH don't like that then it's their problem.

Every time I look into the graphics stack on Linux, it seems to be getting worse, not better.

SNA, UXA, EXA, DRM, DRI, DRI2, Mesa, KMS, VAAPI, VDPAU, GLAMOR, XvMC, UVD, XvMA, Gallium3D, some, but not all, of which is supported by each GPU vendor on a per-GPU basis and which might or might not work, or which might or might not work better with the [proprietary|open source] driver, depending on if you want working [power management|GPU switching|tear-free video|3D support|h264 acceleration|HDMI|multi-head]

And now we have X vs Wayland/Weston vs Wayland/some-display-manager-to-be-named-later vs Mir.

X is a horible windowing system. A more stable and better designed system, might get more developers involved with linux.

Nobody disputes that. The problem is with Ubuntu going with their own bespoke (and not very good) solution rather than contributing to the community effort to replace X.

I dispute it. I dispute the idea that dumping X will magically change anything. I dispute the idea that something else will be better. It's likely that features will get dropped on the floor because developers are out of touch with the real world. They have a 90s idea of the desktop to go with their 90s anti-X FUD.

I'm fine with an actual X replacement. Wayland and Mir aren't that. And Mir is the poster child for needless forking and fragmentation.