That gives the Yankees six starting position players (three infielders, two outfielders, and a catcher), two starting pitchers, and a player who almost certainly won’t throw another pitch for the team. ‘

Hughes, Logan, and Chamberlain will be tendered an offer, while Mitre and Moseley are less certain. I don’t expect the Yankees to tender an offer in either case, but they could try for something similar to what they did last year with Mitre. Still, it’s not all that likely.

Assuming Mitre and Moseley leave, that’s a starting pitcher and two relievers, with a combined salary ranging between $2 million and, say, $4 million.

The listed players total 16, and will make somewhere in the neighborhood of $145 million. If the Yankees want to stick with their $200 million ceiling, that means $55 million for the remaining nine players. They won’t divide it evenly, of course, but if Jeter and Mo come back at their previous salaries that’s then $20 million for seven players. Add Cliff Lee and they’re already over $200 mil with six players, including a starting pitcher, to go.

This leads me to believe that the Yankees will figure prominently into off-season headlines. They normally do, of course, but with the way their roster breaks down I’m sure that they’ll either be moving some players, or otherwise will be going well above their $200 million payroll goal. Either way, we’ll have a busy off-season in Yankeeland. I think everyone can deal with that.

Lot of this might be hot air from the press, but still. I know texas has high property tax but state tax.. right? given NY’s taxes wouldnt Lee earn more @ Texas even if the salaries were 20 Mill apart over the life of the offers

http://riveraveblues.com Mike Axisa

Endorsements, yo.

nathan

True, though he doesnt look like a good pitchman.

let’s c

Big Stein

those queer-eye-for-straight-guy people will give a primo make-over.

Big Stein

lee can earn more money via commercial endorsements.

vin

I really enjoyed this quote from Lee’s agent…

“She enjoys New York as much as anyone enjoys New York.”

Brian

yeah that struck me as tongue-in-cheek

Ed

Athletes pay taxes to the state they were playing in when the money was earned. Essentially half their salary gets taxed in the state their team is from, and half gets taxed by a bunch of other states. As a result, the state income tax difference is a lot less than you’d expect, and the state taxes can vary wildy from year to year based on how the schedule works out. It adds up to a lot less of a difference than you’d think it would.

nathan

Wow, that is something. You mean if an Inter league schedule calls for PHX, MIL, DEN — then Lee pays a tax to AZ, CO and WIS

Big Stein

Taxes are based on residency and location of commerce.

but if you do business in a state, even if you’re a non-resident, you do pay taxes on the business income earned in that state.

So for instance someone who lives in New York but conducts seasonal business in California, he/she will pay CA taxes on the business income derived in CA.

nathan

Interesting.

I would never have guessed that players would fall under that category.

No one is paying to see the GM. He rarely travels with the team, but when he does, he’s tangential involved. For example, NY isn’t gonna tax Theo for sitting in the stands and for talking to Francona before a game.

Marcus

I don’t think that is true at all. Do you have a source for that?

Does a traveling businessman have to file separate state tax returns to each state he does business in? It’s based on where you live. See Jeter, Derek:

The summary of how it works starts toward the middle/bottom with the paragraph starting ” This is how it works.”

first time lawng time

This is the problem I see for the Jeter situation.

If it were not Derek Jeter and this were any old short stop on another team that had the year he did, he wouldn’t be back.

I know he’s Derek Jeter and all and he’s had a great career, and while that’s important, I feel we shouldn’t be overpaying a 36 year old short stop who’s coming off his worst season ever, which could signify the start of a decline for him.

Xstar7

We shouldnt be overpaying him but were going to anyway. Dont be surprised if he signs a deal along the lines if 2-3 years and 35-40 million dollars.

http://twitter.com/dpatrickg Dirty Pena

Dont be surprised if he signs a deal along the lines if 2-3 years and 35-40 million dollars.

I’d be very surprised. Shocked, even. At how much lower that is than I expected him to sign for.

http://www.secondavenuesagas.com Benjamin Kabak

How about 3 years/$45 million? I’d set both of those numbers as the push for an over/under.

http://twitter.com/dpatrickg Dirty Pena

Maybe I’m just being pessimistic about it, but I think he’s getting a 4th year. All he has to do is point at Jorge.

http://twitter.com/dpatrickg Dirty Pena

Not that I’m saying it’s comparable, but to Mr. Jeter it might be.

first time lawng time

All he has to do is point at Jorge.

IMO Jorge provides more offensive value than Jeter does.

After watching this past year, I had more confidence in that something good would happen with Jorge up than with Jeter.

http://twitter.com/dpatrickg Dirty Pena

I don’t disagree but there’s a lot more factors at hand. Jeter isn’t going to go to the table with a list of his negatives in hand. He has leverage (much like Jorge did) in knowing the Yankees aren’t letting him go anywhere. Jorge has only put up 4.4 bWAR the past 3 years* and I’m sure Jeter can make a reasonable case that he can at least approach that. He can also go on about intangibles, captaincy, playoffs, yada yada yada. Theoretically, Cashman could destroy his arguments, but that’s the problem, his hands are tied.

*absolutely NOT meant to disparage Posada

first time lawng time

Yeah, that’s true. It’s just that if I had to choose between the two of them (ignoring defense and positions, pretend they’re DHes for the sake of offensive arguement) I’d take Jorge over Jeter.

Jete hits too many ground balls, lack of power (1 HR since June) , while Jorge gives you the threat to change the score of the game with a swing of the bat.

Only problem with Jorge is injuries.

BTW, I’m mainly looking at this past season’s numbers with Jeter. Also, I’m ignoring WAR and those numbers, because I’m just looking at what I see when I watch games.

Ted Nelson

But you can’t just ignore position. Jeter, even in his awful 2010 season, is one of the best hitting SSs in the league and does at least a respectable job at fielding the position (some might disagree, but he can field the position whereas Jorge cannot play SS). The Yankees have to also consider who they would replace Jeter with if they let him go, and there aren’t too many options. And they have to consider whether 2010 was the start of a decline or a fluke that he’ll bounce back from.

Anal Hershiser

Over – on both

Xstar7

He’s going to have to accept a considerable pay cut because to be honest, he’s a liability.

RL

He’s not going to HAVE to accept a pay cut. In fact, he may not even be asked to accept one.

Ted Nelson

Even if he is a liability, who are the Yankees going to replace him with? He had a terrible 2010 (for him), but even in that season he was one of the best hitting SS in MLB. The Yankees have some leverage on him in saying we’re not going to pay much above the market value (which is???), but he has some leverage on them in saying if I’m gone your new SS is Pena, Nunez, A-Rod, Cano, or whoever you can find via FA or trade… can you live with that? If the Yankees, say, have an offer on the table for a decent SS via trade that weakens Jeter’s position. If they’re really considering Pena v. Nunez… he might call their bluff. Then there’s also them just overpaying him or him just accepting less money, but I sort of hope neither happens and doubt it does to a huge extent.

FIPster Doofus

Agreed. I hate to come off as disloyal, given all that Jeter has done for the Yankees, but I’d rather just let the captain go than pay him some ridiculous amount of money. If only business could outweigh sentimentality in this instance. Or, better yet, if only Jeter would return to prior form. He’s 36 and coming off a career-worst season, though, so I’m not holding my breath.

Mister Delaware

Sure, but that ignores …

1. Major league SS, as a whole suck.

1a. There aren’t any better available free agents.

2. He was awesome in 2009. Chances are that was his last elite season, but there’s also a decent chance he’ll bounce back a bit from this year. A .350 wOBA would certainly work.

3. There is some value in not letting an icon walk. I don’t know what it is and I’m sure well less than many would believe, its still there.

FIPster Doofus

“1a. There aren’t any better available free agents.”

Would you rather have Jeter for some ridiculous sum or Juan Uribe for fewer dollars and years? They’re both pretty similar value-wise nowadays. The major difference: You don’t have to pay through the nose for Uribe.

Mister Delaware

Probably Jeter because of the potential upside. Uribe just had a great (relative) year posting a .322 wOBA, Jeter had his worst year as a pro at .320. Last year Jeter was at .390. If I’m betting on who is better for 2011, I’m betting Jeter. And the Yankees, and by extension you and I, don’t have to care if they pay $5MM more for an extra win or two. Its not like we’re picking Jeter over Lee, if Cashman wants both and both are willing to take the best offer, he’ll get both.

FIPster Doofus

Jeter has more upside at the plate, but Uribe – who is five years younger, fwiw – is a much better fielder and you’d likely win just as many games with him despite spending far fewer dollars over fewer years. Uribe’s cumulative fWAR over the last two years is 6.0. He’s certainly superior to most short stops, and is either equal to or better than the 36-year-old version of Jeter.

Jeter is ultimately going to be back, thus making my suggestion of letting him go and signing Uribe pointless, but I really don’t think it makes business sense to meet his demands.

Ted Nelson

Uribe has had a couple of good seasons back-to-back, but he was pretty awful for 3 seasons before that.

Mister Delaware

Also, I think an underrated part of the Yankees always winning a ton of games is their suck mitigation. Guys may disappoint relative to expectations, but they rarely flat out suck. Uribe has a far higher potential suck quotient than Jeter and the in season SS fix options would presumably either bare or prohibitively expensive.

FIPster Doofus

I’ll agree with you here. Uribe has been an offensive black hole throughout his career; relative to his position, though, he has had some decent years at the plate – including the last couple.

PS

Give him the Bernie Williams treatment?

Mister Delaware

Cashman: [hands Jeter electric guitar]

Jeter: “Why are you giving me this?”

Cashman: “You’ll see soon enough.

Adam B

We get that money back for Jeter, in the grand scheme of things 20 mill aint that much

JerseyDutch

If he was just any shortstop and management based his contract on his production numbers, he’d probably get $22 million for 2 years. Because he is Jeter and we know Cashman is keen to keep him happy, I’m guessing he’ll sign for something like $60 million for 4 years.

gc

Sooner or later people need to accept the fact that…

1) He IS Derek Jeter and not just any other shortstop on any other team, and

2) Cashman already referred to him as a “legacy player” and that more or less means the contract they give him will make him overpaid and probably for more years than people think he’s worth.

The sooner you come to grips with it, the better off you’ll be. Or you won’t, and you’ll just have plenty to gripe about for the next few years. Regardless, he ain’t going anywhere and they’re gonna be giving him a boat load of money for multiple years. Right or wrong, whether you like it or not, this is the guy who’ll be the Joe DiMaggio of the franchise decades from now, the King who enters the building and people shit themselves that they were so lucky to be there when he arrived. Always introduced last at Old Timers Games, always throwing out the first pitch at World Series games, his monument gleaming brightly in the sun at the Stadium. So enough with the “if he wasn’t Derek Jeter” nonsense. He is. And that affects all the circumstances going forward.

first time lawng time

I have accepted it, I just don’t like it or agree with it.

I just don’t think he needs to be paid a ton of money and screw up the payroll, given he’s gona be declining (if this past year is indicative of so)

RL

I have accepted it, I just don’t like it or agree with it.

You don’t have to agree with it. It’s not your money. And you’re just as likely to watch the Yankees if they don’t re-sign him, sign him to what you consider is an acceptable deal, or sign him to a deal you can;t stand. However there are other people that will buy plenty of “Derek Jeter” stuff. How many would buy “Juan Uribe” stuff?

first time lawng time

I have a question:

What does it mean if a player is eligible for arbitration?

You have to consider

The service time problem~! 3~6 years player should go arbitration. So their salary will increase each one.

nathan

I think it points to the 4th year of service.

The players cant contest their salaries for the first 3 years. Starting the 4th year they can take it to an arbiter (the max raise is governed by various factors) Shyam Das?

http://twitter.com/dpatrickg Dirty Pena

It means he’s accrued a certain amount of service time (usually 3 years) in which he made the league minimum (or close.) The year after he’s reached said service time, he and the team exchange figures (for a 1 year deal) of what each entity thinks the player is worth. Usually they settle somewhere in the middle or sign an extension, but if not, they go to a hearing where an arbitrator decides whether the player will get the amount he submitted or the amount the team submitted. It’s more complicated than that, but yeah.

You have to consider

Ghost of Scranton’s salary~!

http://twitter.com/dpatrickg Dirty Pena

He’s not on the 40 man roster, so his salary doesn’t count against the luxury tax.

Big Stein

I wonder how much ARod would be worth in today’s market.

Xstar7

2-3 years 35-40 million dollars. (for jeter at this point this is overpaying him but a contract like this would sound just right for A-Rod at this point in his career.)

Do you know why the excel sheet does not match up with the salary totals under each individual team on Cot’s?

http://twitter.com/dpatrickg Dirty Pena

They seem to match up to me. The spreadsheet is this year and the future, the list on each team’s page is this year and the past.

ZZ

According to Cot’s Yankee team page

A-Rod: $31 million
CC: $23 million
Teix: $22.5 million

http://twitter.com/dpatrickg Dirty Pena

Signing bonuses, I think.

ZZ

Yeah that’s it. They calculate it with signing bonuses distributed evenly over the life of the contract.

http://www.riveraveblues.com Joe Pawlikowski

Yep. That’s how MLB does payroll calculations.

first time lawng time

After looking at only this season and his age and ignoring his name, I would give (if anything) Jeter 1 year 7 million, and bat him 8th.

What the Yankees are probably going to do:
2 years 40 million with him batting first.

He could obviously have a bounceback year, it’s just that after this season, I have not enjoyed watching him play at all.

Sorry Jetes =[

nathan

If they escape with a 2 year deal that is a win-win

the $$ is irrelevant. They are not offering him less than 10 M (he might not even be worth that)

So the only win that the Yanks can get out of this is the years. 2-3 max

larryf

totally agree with ftlt. I like the way she thinks. Gardy leads off, Cano bats 3rd and Jeter bats somewhere but not in the first inning of every game. He “just wants to win”, right?

first time lawng time

He “just wants to win”, right?

Yeah. Which is exactly why he graciously changed positions when the defensively better short stop came…oh wait.

lol

gc

Now come back from Fantasy Land and examine the whole thing in context, dealing with who he IS, and not who he isn’t (some other shortstop on any other team). I hate to break it to you, but when his new contract is announced, you’re going to be disappointed, as will many people here. Right or wrong, let’s deal with reality. He’s coming back, will be overpaid, and will be here for multiple years.

larryf

You’re not breaking anything to us, we know what will happen too.

first time lawng time

Yeah I know. I was just giving my perception on the whole thing that’s all.

theyankeewarrior

Based on this year’s payroll, and the above numbers, I think it’s safe to say the Yankees will re-up everyone, (besides the Mitre/Moseley/Gaudain crew) sign Cliff Lee, and promote guys like Montero going into the Spring/Summer.

This keeps their payroll somewhere around the ~215M that it was in 2010, and allows them to decide what exactly it is they need throughout the season so they can make the appropriate moves (Wood, Berkman, Kearns etc.) at the mid-way point.

Let that pitching staff and the offense that scored the most runs in baseball get you to August before you decide who to give up/who to binge spend on besides the obvious:

Lee, Jeter, Mo, Pettitte.

http://www.twitter.com/tomzig Tom Zig

just to nitpick i think it would be:

CC, Lee, Pettitte, Hughes, AJ.

I think after what happened this year, they’ll try to minimize Burnett’s usage.

Xstar7

No If the Yankees sign Lee and pettite stays than it should be
CC Sabathia, Cliff Lee, Andy Pettite, AJ Burnett, Phil Hughes. Phil Hughes is good but should only be our # 5 starter if things go as planned.( let’s not forget how much run support he got this year.)

FIPster Doofus

Hughes > Burnett. Run support is irrelevant to this argument.

first time lawng time

Good AJ > Hughes IMO.

However, the only problem with AJ is consistiency.

If he has a bounceback year and Good AJ can consistently show up, then I feel he’s better than Hughes.

I have faith in AJ.

FIPster Doofus

Bad AJ is the current AJ. Hence, Hughes is unquestionably the superior pitcher as of now. If the old Burnett comes back, great, but I’ll believe it when I see it.

first time lawng time

I see your point.

The only thing that’s giving me a reason to belive AJ will bounce back is his talent and my faith in him. I don’t have any facts to back up my point other than:

2009 World Series Game 2: Never forget. That’s the real AJ.

Fact: I have faith in AJ Burnett.

Those arenn’t facts, but whatever.

FIPster Doofus

Hey, I like Burnett – he was solid in 2009 and key to the championship victory – but the current version of him is horrific. Obviously a return to form would be a significant coup for the Yankees’ rotation.

first time lawng time

but the current version of him is horrific

Agreed. But I, for no reason whatsover, have faith in him to have a good, maybe great, year.

I;m sure it’ll be better than this year’s.

Joe West’s Music Career

2009 World Series Game 5.

Also real AJ.

He is what he is.

Johnny O

This plus AJ’s Salary >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hughes’s salary. AJ gets the 4 spot by default. Right or wrong, that will play a part.

FIPster Doofus

Salary didn’t seem to play a factor this past season when Hughes got three postseason starts to Burnett’s one.

Xstar7

Ok but look. Unless In 2011 AJ wants to get DFA’d and become a midseason pickup for the Pittsburg Pirates(like Chan Ho Park) he’ll get his head straight and work with whoever the Yankees sign as pitching coach this offseason to fix the inconsistency problems he had last season. Putting him #4 in the rotation gives him an opportunity to pitch behind three great starters who should be in the rotation ahead of him but still a very good opportunity to prove himself. Putting him #5 in the rotation would pretty much be telling him ” AJ you suck so your going to be last in our rotation and your probably not going to be pitching in as many important games because we can’t risk you screwing up. Again.”

FIPster Doofus

“Unless In 2011 AJ wants to get DFA’d and become a midseason pickup for the Pittsburg Pirates(like Chan Ho Park) he’ll get his head straight and work with whoever the Yankees sign as pitching coach this offseason to fix the inconsistency problems he had last season.”

The difference is that getting rid of Park basically cost the Yankees nothing. You can’t say the same amount Burnett, whom New York is more than likely stuck with for the duration of his contract.

And I doubt Burnett’s mentality would be helped all that much by being named the fourth starter instead of taking his rightful place as the No. 5.

Xstar7

Trust me if the AJ bombs next year like he did last year they’ll find a way to get rid of him although it might not be as early as I predicted. And putting him fifth in the rotation would be a kick in the nuts to AJ even if he deserves it. AJ will definitely pitch 4th if Cliff Lee And Andy Pettite are in our rotation next year. And if one or both of them aren’t here than he’ll pitch third. The reason why? Because he’s getting paid more money than plenty of pitchers out there who are better than him and he needs to start earning it

http://www.twitter.com/tomzig Tom Zig

Not like it really matters. It only matters the first time through the rotation and in the playoffs. After the first time through, AJ and Phil won’t consistently be matched up against teams 4th and 5th starters.

As for the playoffs. Well we have to get there first and by then who knows who will be healthy and performing. So we’ll worry about that in 10-11 months from now.

theyankeewarrior

The concept of AJ pitching 3rd is to break up the lefties and give Hughes and Andy a break. They will, in all likelihood, be the 3 and 4 starters in October, but while you’re paying AJ Burnett 16.5M/yr, you might as well get something out of him.

AKA… break up our left handed studs and try and muster up a league average season while eating innings and dominating ne out of every 3-4 games you enter.

Who pitches 3rd in the rotation is utterly meaningless, other than

A) the fact that you may be sending out the same type of pitcher too many games in a row and letting lineups get comfy

and

B) it’s important to rest vets and young guns aka Phil and Andy

theyankeewarrior

ONE*** out of every 3-4

first time lawng time

If they sign Lee and Andy comes back, that is a very, very nice starting rotation.

I mean, you’ve got CC and Lee who are aces, Andy probably won’t be too bad (I;m only sayiing it like that because of age and injuries) AJ could have a bounceback year and Hughes is maturing.

If they don’t sign Lee and Andy retires, that’s not that great of a starting rotation. If Hughes can put hitters away and AJ has a bounceback it’s not too bad.

As for the lineup, with guys who struggled last year (tex, jete, arod) probably having bounceback years and the guys who made a djustments last year, that’s a pretty nice lineup.

But don’t assume that’ll happen. Guys could continue to decline, Gardy’s season could be an apparition, Cano/Swish/Grandy could fall off a cliff, Montero a bust, Lee doesn’t sign, Pettitte retires, Mo retires (is he a FA?, Bad AJ all year, Hughes can’t put hitters away.

That would really suck. That’s be September 2010 to an EXTREME!

I mean picture the ALCS games and entire September 162 games a year….

Xstar7

I don’t even want to think about that.

http://twitter.com/dpatrickg Dirty Pena

Plus what if CC needs Tommy John surgery, A-Rod decides to not wear a glove, and Dave Robertson joins a barbershop quartet?

That’s a pretty craptastic bench. And I don’t expect Aceves to contribute much next year. He’s got a pretty serious back injury.

theyankeewarrior

As for the bench, I’m sure they will pursue a SS/3B-type that could fill in for Alex and Derek (Bill-Hall style) but those guys are hard to find because they either want to start, or want too much money to suck.

Mick

Arod’s contract is disgusting. Posada’s is horrible too, but at least it’s only for 1 more year.

http://twitter.com/dpatrickg Dirty Pena

There’s no such thing as a bad one year contract.

theyankeewarrior

… if you’re the Yankees

http://twitter.com/dpatrickg Dirty Pena

A “bad contract” implies that the contract could potentially ruin a franchise’s prospects of winning for many years. So, just by definition there’s no bad one year contracts. Bad one year signings? Yes.

YankeesJunkie

Posada is at least an elite hitting catcher for one more year than can give the Yankees 2-3 WAR in 400 ABs.

vin

With Lee, Pettitte, Mo and Jeter all signed, the payroll will be around 215-220 mil.

I don’t really see where they can clear payroll. Their most tradeable (non arbitration or team controlled) players are also the best deals – Granderson, Swisher, and Cano. No team would touch Posada, ARod, Tex, CC, AJ, etc.

Outside of Lee and the re-signings, I see a pretty quiet offseason. I think Cash will be rifling through the CHoP, Thames, Winn Clearance Section once again.

I don’t think they can/should clear enough payroll to add Crawford or Werth… not when their needs are in the rotation. It’s Cliff Lee or trade for another big name.

I’ll repost this from yesterday, since its applicable:

They’re on the hook for 140 mil in ’11.
Figure 55 million for Mo, Jeter and Lee.
That’s 195.
4 mil to Igawa (doesn’t count against luxury tax),
5 mil for arbitration raises.
Another 1 mil for pre-arbitration raises.
That leaves us at 205 million.
If Pettitte re-signs, that would take the team to around 215. Maybe a bit more depending on how badly they want Andy to return.

Igawa is not on the 40-man, we are not counting his salary, it is a moot point.

He is basically out of sight out of mind when it comes to the Yankee brass, FO, fans and payroll.

Just Imagine they donated 40M to charity.

It’s gone. Poof.

vin

It’s still 4 million dollars. Of course if he was on the 40 man, it would be 5.6 million. Doesn’t mean it should be ignored.

gc

Is there any place where it was stated by Hal or Cash that they set a goal for $200M in payroll. You mentioned it a couple times and I haven’t heard any specific comments from those in charge. Just looking for clarification. Thanks.

Jerome S

Has there ever been a player who we were so certain that were going to get as Cliff Lee?
If so, did we get him?

Phishin’

I feel like this was how we were talking/acting about CC going into the 2008 Offseason, but I could be wrong

nathan

Carlos Beltran was a sure thing per the media until the FO didnt need him.

You never know, they have to check his injury history. He will be 33 next season coming off a season in which he had oblique strain and back issues (not his first). Its a classic ‘beware’ buy.

vin

Definitely CC… and to a lesser degree, AJ.

first time lawng time

Am I the only one that would not care if Jeter retired or even left to play for another team?

I don’t want to sound like a jerk, it’s just that he was disgusting to watch at the plate this season.**

**That’s merely my own opinion, I don’t have facts or numbers to back that up…Although this game really put me over the edge on him.

I’d care in the sense that seeing Jeter in another uniform would be tough; however, that option, IMO, is more palatable than meeting whatever his exorbitant contractual demands will be.

larryf

You are not the only one. We have a great offense without him (based on his performance this year) and he is not a good leadoff hitter and has below average range. The facts and numbers do not back you up but overpaying him for the next few years and watching him retire a Yankee is foregone and it’s going to be painful.

Hughesus Christo

“Without him” meaning top-10 WAR at the position even with his HORRIFIC defense, right?

When is the last time a good shortstop hit the FA market? Furcal? Do you see how much he got paid?

Hughesus Christo

If only we had a cheap young starter ready to slot into #5 after a stellar 2008 cameo and few years of development…

larryf

I think Nova was on a very short leash and will be an option for us if not traded. Wasn’t that Boone Logan who gave up a 3 run HR in Chicago when he came in to relieve Nova because of the 5th inning curse?

Hughesus Christo

Ivan Nova isn’t good. He has no “out” pitches and his control got exposed when scouting reports started circulating. Straight fastballs and a mediocre change/sinker thing ain’t gonna fly int he ALE it.

Hughesus Christo

in the ALE*

ZZ

Then what exactly is your scouting report on Joba Chamberlain at this point?

Hughesus Christo

Joba has K stuff at least, and he’s no benefiting from an absence of scouting reports.

ZZ

So his K stuff pitching in the bullpen translates to success as a starting pitcher in the AL East?

Hughesus Christo

Don’t tell anyone, but ’09 Joba wasn’t much different than ’10 Hughes.

ZZ

That’s news to me. Are you sure we are talking about the same players?

Want to elaborate?

Hughesus Christo

102 ERA+ v. 97 ERA+

Both 24

Similar issues with closing out ABs. Only one of those got messed with by his manager all season.

ZZ

Ah I see.

ERA+ The all ecompassing statistic that allows us to make definitive conclusions like Joba was not much different than Hughes.

Hughes didn’t have starts skipped this season?

Hughesus Christo

I’ll also posit that if the 09 Yankees had half the rotation blow up like the 10 Yankees did, Joba would have just pitched through September, put up better numbers overall, and been seen as “gritty” and a “true Yankee” for picking up the slack.

ZZ

That is quite a story you have there.

Hughesus Christo

I’m brining this up next chat. I have avoided the issue because of my feelings for Mr. Hughes, but let’s get real. An objective look at their respective seasons is going to tell you that they were pretty damn close overall. Run support and managerial dickery makes up almost all of the difference.

ZZ

I am not sure what a chat has to do with this?

You seem to be telling a lot of nice stories.

Getting real I never even considered Joba’s performance coming close to what Phil did this year until you started with all these crazy theories.

Joba failed and you’re drastically overstating the extent of his failure.

Phil flourished and you’re drastically overstating the extent of his success.

Phil in ’10 was better than Joba in ’09. Miles better? Not remotely.

YankeesJunkie

Ivan Nova is not bad either. He is #5 starter. No K pitch, but he still has enough of FB and okay off speed stuff to get Ks.

first time lawng time

I don’t get it, why don’t they make Joba a starter? Isn’t that what he was his entire career?

ZZ

Most relievers were starters at some point in their life.

Very few pitchers are built to be able to handle the rigors of starting in MLB especially on highly competitive teams.

Hughesus Christo

But Ivan Nova is, apparently.

ZZ

Who said that?

http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

I would have much less of a problem with Chamberlain in the bullpen if he was given more than a season and a half in the rotation to prove himself.

The Big City of Dreams

Yes thats what he was his entire career but the yankees feel that he is best served as a reliever. I don’t agree with that so I’ve given up talking about him starting for the yankees. With that being said they should trade joba since they don’t have any use for him

I should say “realistic/possible” dream team, with the players we could actually have.

http://twitter.com/kschmidt2 Kiersten

Raise your hand if you care what the payroll is.

first time lawng time

Hahha. I only care because the higher it is the more crap we have to hear from Mets fans/ non Yankee fans.

I’m not paying it…you know who is though?

A bunch of filthy rich guys…seriously 20 extra million is NOTHING to them. And if they bring back good players who will play better, you know what that means? More tickets, more fans, more merchandise, MORE MONEY.

Owners make a shitload of money off this stuff…something the media fails to acknowledge.

Poopy Pants

A bunch of people in Tampa just did.

http://twitter.com/dpatrickg Dirty Pena

The only possible reason I have for caring is if the Yankees get too out of control, the public outcry might force MLB to cave on a salary cap or something of that nature.

Jerome S

You have a good point. The 200 mil self imposed cap isn’t quite self-imposed. There’s just so much pressure from everyone else.
Barring that, it’s really not terrifically far out of the imagination to see the Yankees spending 250 million or greater.
Heck, I could see them outspending the Red Sox by a 2-1 margin by 2015.

first time lawng time

Do managers, players, agents even discuss “WAR” and that stuff with negotiations. I just can’t picture Brian Cashman even knowing what WAR is.

http://twitter.com/dpatrickg Dirty Pena

I can say with near certainty that he knows what WAR is. Does he use that specific statistic? No idea. He’d be doing a pretty pitiful job as GM if he willfully ignored something that might be giving other GMs an edge.

http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

I just can’t picture Brian Cashman even knowing what WAR is.

I’d be willing to bet my next paycheck that he knows what WAR is and is very familiar with it.

first time lawng time

Hahaha yeah I guess you’re right…I just think it’s so unknown, because I know very little about it lol.

My bad.

http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

Joke’s on you, anyway. My pay checks are tiny.

http://theyankeeu.com Matt Imbrogno

Re ’09 Joba vs. ’10 Phil above

Both had similar FIP-ERA gaps (.07 for JC, .06 for PH).
Hughes out FIP’d his xFIP by .08 points, Chamberlain was .26 higher in FIP than xFIP.
Joba struck out (barely) more per nine, but walked more (by a good margin).
Joba gave up 1.20 HR/9, Phil 1.28.
Joba had a better GB%.
Phil had a better tERA by a good margin(per FanGraphs).
Hughes bested Joba in OPSA by 100 points, which is his biggest advantage.

There’s an edge for Phil, but it’s not as big as we’d think.

Brian

i believe that Jeter will take a paycut, Cashman really cannot justify giving Jeter 20 million a year considering his diminishing production

If I told you that he’s paying him 10M per year for his actual production and another 10M per year for his brand recognition and his massive marketing boon to the franchise, would that make you feel better?

Brian

no but i could see it happening

dan

lee is getting 6 years at 25 per………..top that texas…………

The Big City of Dreams

‘If only we had a cheap young starter ready to slot into #5 after a stellar 2008 cameo and few years of development…”

Yea only if we had that guy on the team to pitch at the back end of the rotation. But hey we do have a middle reliever that comes in to games when the team is up or down by multiple runs because he can’t be trusted to pitch in a tight game

The Big City of Dreams

“Getting real I never even considered Joba’s performance coming close to what Phil did this year until you started with all these crazy theories.

Joba failed. Phil flourished.”

at the ages of 23-24 the kid is labeled as a failure especially in his first full yr as a starter wtf

rek4gehrig

I wish I was a Yankees baseball player. These guys are making serious money. Even Mitre..

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