I believe Grom could beat Death Knight Arthas, but Lich King Arthas could beat Grom.

Agreeing with this. Grom "one shotting" Mannoroth was basically due to Mannoroth gloating and severely underestimating his opponents. He was already banking on Grom surrendering to the power and addictive qualities of the Blood Curse.

If World of Warcraft has taught me anything, it's that teaching a crowd something is far harder than teaching individuals.

Agreeing with this. Grom "one shotting" Mannoroth was basically due to Mannoroth gloating and severely underestimating his opponents. He was already banking on Grom surrendering to the power and addictive qualities of the Blood Curse.

Maybe but still he tried to parry Grom's relentless blow.

But anyway take into account that Grom was "cured" at the fight with Manoroth. If he was Fel, i dont think Manoroth would want to bother him.

And guys you also gota consider Manoroth was a Burning Legion General, equal in rank with Kil'jaedan and Archimonde. Kil'jaedan which created the Lich King.

And guys you also gota consider Manoroth was a Burning Legion General, equal in rank with Kil'jaedan and Archimonde. Kil'jaedan which created the Lich King.

Mannoroth isn't equal in rank with KJ and Arch. He is very high ranked, being the leader of all Pit Lords, but still not as high as them. In WotA, Mannoroth realizes Azshara is stronger than him, and that only Sarg, KJ and Arch could defeat her.

I think a fel Grom Hellscream would win. Despite the fact that I dislike the character a lot, I can't argue here.

In a 1vs1 fight Grom would win. In army versus army, the balance might tip in the Lich King's favor as he can raise the orcs that die. But 1vs1 it's Grom.

Let's put it this way. During the WC3 night elf campaign, Arthas fights Illidan. At that point they're evenly matched. Later on, Arthas does get some powers, but these powers relate to rasing the dead, so in a battle he'd still be as good as Arthas was with a sword plus some death knight tricks. He wouldn't have angry spirits of valkiries or lots of bosses before him, it would be just the Lich King in Arthas's body. On the other hand, Grom was already a battle hardened warrior, and he also got fel powers now. Alas, besides more strengh and stuff, we don't know exactly what these fel powers were, but he did manage to kill a demi-god. And yes, he and his orcs were outnumbered. I love the night elves, but that's the truth.

However, that said, Garrosh still isn't Grom. And Garrosh would still get his ass kicked by many.

And Grom did defeat Mannoroth by sacrificing himself, it doesn't look that much of a victory for who's the ''strongest'' if he ends up dead anyway

Grom didn't sacrifice himself, he likely didn't know Pit Lords blew up when you killed them. If Arthas had killed Mannoroth, the same thing would likely have happened to him, unless his Dreadlord-made armor protects him from fel energy.

It does not work that way. It was Kil'jaeden who created Lich King, but in WC3 he told Illidan to destroy Lich King as he grew too powerful to be controlled... and that was BEFORE merge with Arthas.

You say Grom killed Cenarius, but Lich King was also a god... even if there is no specific information in lore about it. The god of undead:
1) Lich King does not age - is immortal
2) he is worshipped ( by eg. Cult of Damned )
3) he has absolute power of one specific area ( undeath, death ) - in one quest in Icecrown you were to save crusader from lich king's plague, but Alextrasza's power nor Remulos ( son of Cenarius ) power could remove it. That's because it lied in Lich King's area - area of specific god - and no external power could influence it. The Naaru ultimately managed to save the crusader, but their power might be considered as being "opposite" to the Lich King - one neutralizes another.

Also, notice that you actually NEVER witnessed lich king's true power. Yes, he was defeated in Light's Hope, but there he was like Ragnaros fighting in water plane. On top of Icecrown Citadel, he freezed world most powerful paladin wielding most holy sword with one move of hand, and annihilated "most powerful fighting force this world has known" with one attack. Fordring actually never defeated lich king, but destroyed his weapon ( what he did with sword that could "turn undead to ash with slight touch" ). Lich King's own power trapped him inside the vortex and that's why players could defeat him.

So yes, duel between DW and LK would be much more interesting that LK vs Grom.

I think a fel Grom Hellscream would win. Despite the fact that I dislike the character a lot, I can't argue here.

In a 1vs1 fight Grom would win. In army versus army, the balance might tip in the Lich King's favor as he can raise the orcs that die. But 1vs1 it's Grom.

Let's put it this way. During the WC3 night elf campaign, Arthas fights Illidan. At that point they're evenly matched. Later on, Arthas does get some powers, but these powers relate to rasing the dead, so in a battle he'd still be as good as Arthas was with a sword plus some death knight tricks. He wouldn't have angry spirits of valkiries or lots of bosses before him, it would be just the Lich King in Arthas's body. On the other hand, Grom was already a battle hardened warrior, and he also got fel powers now. Alas, besides more strengh and stuff, we don't know exactly what these fel powers were, but he did manage to kill a demi-god. And yes, he and his orcs were outnumbered. I love the night elves, but that's the truth.

However, that said, Garrosh still isn't Grom. And Garrosh would still get his ass kicked by many.

Atleast you dont reply based on your hatreds.
Why would you dislike such an awesome character i dont know... a true Hero of the Horde.

---------- Post added 2012-12-20 at 04:00 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Rafoel

. Yes, he was defeated in Light's Hope, but there he was like Ragnaros fighting in water plane. On top of Icecrown Citadel, he freezed world most powerful paladin wielding most holy sword with one move of hand, and annihilated "most powerful fighting force this world has known" with one attack.

If you judge like that then in the last mission of Horde in wc3 campaign when you play with thrall and you gota save grom.
You cant kill him, his life drops but you cant kill him (he regens faster than your damage). No matter how many soldiers you have at him.

Atleast you dont reply based on your hatreds.
Why would you dislike such an awesome character i dont know... a true Hero of the Horde.

That's easy, I even pointed it out, because I love night elves So I dislike Grom because he was the enemy of the faction I like and didn't like some of his character personality(the part about let's drink demon blood again knowing what it did to him and his people for example). But that's my view on the matter.

Lich King by a country mile. Yeah Grom is a badass any one of my all time favourite warriors but there's no contest. Mannaroth is still just a puppet to KJ and Arch whereas the demon lords of the legion couldn't control the Lich King and founded his own army of killing machines. Frostmourne was KJ's greatest creation as well and I'm afraid Grom is fucked in this one.