---EDITOR'S NOTE: This is a transcription of the original thread by PlzBreakMyCampaign, found here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11714).---

I have staged a coup of the Why Tier X's are in Tier X series of threads (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5070.0) with a complete list. My hope is to free JaronK the burden of now a 3rd and a maybe 4th 'tier system for classes' thread. This will save the discussion of tiers themselves for the tier thread. Concern over specific classes can go here.

Let me know if I am missing any non-variant base class in 3.5 (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10871.msg371678#msg371678). I intend to include them all.

I do not claim to intimately know or play each class. The work I have done is completely at the mercy of the boards and my be changed, so please try to keep indignation to its lowest. Any balance concerns are considered after the dirty handbook fixes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3288.0).

You will notice that the upper tiers are casters. If you are looking for all casting classes, feel free to look here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8664.0).

Finally, I will try to keep up with the discussion and add mention about specific class features when needed; hence the two posts per tier.

Coloring Key for optimizing the base classes:Too simple or too few options: It is just about as powerful or weak as it is going to be even after optimization so it's not worth the effort. For low tier classes this means you can't stretch it into higher tiers as easily. For upper tiers its nice that you probably won't suck that much even if you are fairly new.Some complexity, some options: You get out what you put in. Heavy optimization won't be as obvious as blue colored, but it will be noticable. Consider this normal 'stretchiness' to go up or down a tier dependent on the build and player. JaronK noticed that optimization bumps up or down a tier - two for classes on the edge or with more extensive cheese. This is normal.Too complex or too many options: You get more than what you put in. You really need to understand how this class works. For high tier classes this is bad because you can't start cold and be the epitome of tier 1. For lower tier classes this is actually a good thing because if you try, you can pull it up more than normal. However it might be frustrating to get past the learning curve.

Displayed in groups of 2:6&5: 30.6% with NPCs, 25.8% without4&3: 48.6% with NPCs, 51.5% without2&1: 20.8% with NPCs, 22.6% without

Results:The mode is Tier 4 which JaronK suspected might be the 'default' level of power a PC should have, followed by Tier 3. Notice that when NPC classes are considered Tier 3 and 5 tie for second place, making us even more sure that Tier 4 is truly the norm. Tier 6 and 1 have the same number of outliers when NPC classes are considered, which is good because each is considered 'broken' albeit in opposite manners. Furthermore the mostly non-casting Tier 5 makes up a greater chunk than the all full caster classes of Tier 2, perhaps indicating greater hesitation with 9th level spells and powers.

WotC just discovered the best flavor in the game. "Quick let's screw up the mechanics!" They said to one another.

The main problems are with the mechanics of truenaming. There is no reason for the Law of Sequence to exist. It's like demanding Sorcerers may not spam fireball (You can't cast that! The fireball from last turn is still burning!)

The Truenaming check for items and creatures should NOT be x2 CL or CR. Where you succeeded at level 1, you will fail at level 20.

Can do some fairly neat things, but its simply not worth the effort. If you need to abuse polymorph or an item familiar to function, well, that's a problem.

You have some awesomely fluffed PrC options. Too bad you will still suck when you take them.

(click to show/hide)

Dead levels: 3,4,5,11,12,16,18,19.Progression: A Lexicon of the Evolving Mind every level, one of the Craft Tool every 4 starting at 7 (but 1 at 4), one of the Perfected Map every 4 starting at 8Class Features: Known personal truename, knowledge focus, truename research, Knowledge focus, Bonus recitation feat, see the named 1/day, knowledge focus, sending, knoweldge focus, bonus recitation feat, speak unto the masses, say my name and I am there

Samurai (without Imperious Command)Why its Defunct:

The best part is not being this class - falling and being a Ronin is this class's best schtick.

Code of Conducts are bad. Except this class is so bad, breaking the CoC is actually good.

Decent class skills - except you probably are dumping int to intimidate or smite and damage with your sucky weapons.

Class features that act as feats are not psy-ref'able. Even then your improved and greater TWF (for sucky weapons) comes too late anyways.

PrC's:Exotic Weapon Master: 1 level gets the Exotic Blow ability, which is very solid PA damage.Ronin: Mentioned earlier.Kensai: The Samurai is one of the few classes with all Kensai class skills, and the oath of service meshes well with the samurai's vow. It's not THAT exciting, but it is a very flavorful class, and choosing your own weapon enhancements is a lot of fun.Knight Protector: This will make you more of a tank, though none of the features are awesome (as a sidenote, you gain Tower Shield proficiency without knowing any other shields!)Knight of the Iron Glacier (FB): C'mon. It already requires EWP: Bastard Sword, and you KNOW you want to ride a giant rhinoceros!Bloodstorm Blade (TOB): First, it requires MCing into warblade, which is better than samurai. Second, it will let you change your EWP: Bastard Sword to any other weapon - and the same should apply to your other subpar feats that specify only a bastard sword and short sword. Besides, throwing weapons as a full melee attack is just awesome. -Akalsaris

Not sure what WotC thought the monk's role should be besides 'awesome'. I mean look at all those progressions with no dead levels! (http://www.minmaxboards.com/file:///G:\Users\ATAHUA~1\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.gif)

The chasis is wrong for a meleer. You don't have full BAB, so don't expect to hit anything without severe optimization.

Your unarmed damage isn't great thanks to exotic weapons, but you can go king of smack if you severely optimize. Too bad you still won't hit

Dinky AC bonus for your MAD, naked self. Like the above, everyone can have this without the t5 ickiness thanks to a monks belt. It's like core was trying to invalidate the monk class.

Your speed is an enhancement bonus, so everyone and their mother can do better without wasting precious ECL. What are you going to do with it anyways? Note that spring attack is a trap.

Little bonuses here and there aren't class features. They are feats. You have paladin-like immunity to diseases, so now you can't become a lycanthrope. Awesome.

You can heal yourself some and slow fall. Its a good thing you spent levels on this rather than petty cash!

Spell Resistance that you can't turn off is cool. Nothing like missing that heal or buff!

Your mild maneuverability of improved evasion, 1/day dimension door, and level rounds/day etherealness are what casters got a long time ago, assuming they even care to blow the money on the ring. Usually, it isn't that important.

Poison immunity, and tongues come too late and don't get me started on a fort save ability that doesn't work on the cool types anyways.

Abusing aging penalties comes too late to be useful and being an outsider with sucky DR is not a capstone, no matter what WotC thinks.

Mass Staredown is mildly cool with Imperious Command. Unfortunately, Zhentarium Fighter does it better (Swift Action, so you can still attack), and the Dread Pirate and Scarlet Corsair PrCs both provide far superior versions of this ability.

Samurai 10 with the Fearsome Armor enhancement (DoTU) and the Imperious Command feat can do the double intimidate 4 levels sooner than normal, and send foes cowering for 1 round first. Of course, at that level a Zhentarim fighter with that armor can do a triple intimidate.

(click to show/hide)

Dead levels: see above, though you might as well use the web enhancement (http://dead%20level%20http/www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x) while your at it.Progression: see aboveClass Features: see above

NinjaWhy it Doesn't Do its Job Well:

Same problems as the monk on AC bonus. Doesn't even stack without optimization

Sudden strike is the retarded cousin of sneak attack. See the rogue entry and then try to imagine it sucking more.

Ki is so flavorful. Quick make it suck! Trapfinding has the same problems rogues face

The ghost abilities are pretty cool, I admit. Its the real thing that makes you a ninja. Abuse it before your niche fades.

Great leap doesn't worth with a medium load and your spider climb isn't even really a spider climb.

The Ghost Mind ability can be bypassed so easily, its worthless

Ghost sight is only 15 levels too late compared to a warlock. That's not much, is it?

Congratulations, your speed boost isn't enhancement. Too bad you get less than the monk so it evens out.

No tumble restrictions. Okay that's good anti-melee stuff. And for the teleporting casters?

Dancer's Strikes involve blowing a standard action to gain it for only 5+cha rounds. Raise your hand if you like action penalties to be effective in combat! Don't get excited about that (any) either; you merely pick one unchanging type.

You can water walk three levels after the cleric has been doing it.

Pounce is cool. Too bad the barbarians did it ten levels ago.

An AC debuff is okay but this ability only matters if your allies are stupid enough to proc a lot of AoOs. Otherwise +4str or +4dex is better.

A fly speed is good. It competes well with those 9th level spells, huh?

What makes a dip? A dip is taking a few levels in another class in order to grab a bonus feat or other useful class feature before continuing to your main classes.

What stops a dip? Taking a few levels stops being a dip when a character can't get anything out of each level is simply 'waiting' for a class feature further down the line. This is what single-classed characters do, especially in wait of the best abilities from 17-20.