Beta PvE impressions. The feel of the game is... Very much like a generic MMO.

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Here's another important difference. In WoW, you are NOT rewarded for doing for doing the quests out of order. So I have to pick apples when it's time to pick apples, and I get no reward for killing the mobs that stand in my way. And then the very next quest is to kill the mobs I just finished killing.

Sure. But the main point is that if the actual content is fun to do, it doesn't (shouldn't) matter if you get rewarded for it! Think of why GW1 was ofter more fun than the usual: You had a goal on the other side of the map or whatever, and it was usually easy as hell once you got there. But between you and that goal was a ton of obstacles that you only got very small and mostly meaningless rewards for. But it was still fun - even though you only got rewarded for the end part. That's why various WoWtards/grindmonkeys on this very forum insisted that missions and quests in GW1 were still "kill X of Y" quests in disguise, because you had to do that to finish the mission - but it's not true. Instead of those enemies being the objective of what you were doing, they were opposing what you were doing.

That is also why farming is so boring. Not because it is grind, but because the content you are going though is the objective. Funny how that works, right? But if rewards were fun, farming would be the most fun thing there is.

Originally Posted by Alaris

This is true. You can level up doing dungeons entirely, which imo was a better if slower way to do it.

That's not even what I mean. Repeating dungeons is grind too if you do it to collect xp. You can do the quests you want, skip basically anything that feels grindy, press ahead to areas ranged above your level and generally just play around. The thing is though that your leveling will be extremely slow compared to the people who do grind, and you will die a lot. It's not efficient at all. But it is possible.

Originally Posted by Alaris

Yeah, but, honestly I don't even notice the progress bars when I play GW2 (aside for weapon skill grinding, that is annoying). It might change later, but for now it's like I don't even know what I am getting as reward, and I don't even care. I just want to go out there and do stuff.

They pop up with a sound and they sparkle. They are really hard to miss.

Technically, grind exists whether you enjoy it or not, and whatever the reason you engage in it. It's just an aspect of game design.

As for progress bars in GW2, you're right, I did notice them after completion! That's the best kind of progress bars, the ones you don't care to keep an eye on while they get filled up.

Yes, grind exists even if you enjoy it, but that has nothing to do with what I said. There are non-grindy quests in WoW. Though you can't level efficiently by doing only those quests.

Re progress bars: Not in this case, sorry. The effect of them is still that once they are filled up, you have no reason to keep doing whatever was filling them in.

On average, giving a relatively tangible award for some thing, even some thing that the person (player) thought was fun, will make it seem less fun, and will reduce the intrinsic motivation of doing it more/again. Basically, there's a shift away from "doing it because it is fun" to "doing it because I get rewarded".

Re progress bars: Not in this case, sorry. The effect of them is still that once they are filled up, you have no reason to keep doing whatever was filling them in.

Like I said, in my case it doesn't matter because (1) I was just doing random stuff around anyway, and I kept doing so, (2) when something gets finished, something new starts anyway and I tend to get engaged in that, and (3) it's not like I even knew what I was supposedly doing to fill the bar in the first place.

The bar could have been hidden deep in the UI for all I cared, similar to the daily stuff that gave chests, I still have no clue what triggers them and I certainly don't care atm to find out.

Like I said, in my case it doesn't matter because (1) I was just doing random stuff around anyway, and I kept doing so, (2) when something gets finished, something new starts anyway and I tend to get engaged in that, and (3) it's not like I even knew what I was supposedly doing to fill the bar in the first place.

So you were just milking cows for fun and then when the progress bar filled up and you were like "wow where did all this endorphin come from?" you just went on milking cows for fun? mm k

Access to special items that gave incentive to doing DEs for more karma.

An element requiring completion if you are going for 100% zone completion.

A guaranteed activity for when you first enter an area, even if there are no DEs going on.

An opportunity to add a wider range of mechanics into activities that may not fit well with DEs.

One Renown Heart I did involved finding statues that asked a riddle, and gave multiple choice answers to pick. You had to finish enough riddles to complete the renown heart.

Another Heart involved choosing between several activities, to help clear an area of obstacles. I could find branches to burn in a fire, use grenades at wasp nests in trees, use timed explosives to clear tree stumps, or find and wake up workers who would then chop trees. I did a little bit of anything I could find that raised the progress bar, and felt it was a nice mix of casual options.

And then there was even a Renown Heart that involved using a bug jar to capture bugs and feed them to cows. It was a timed goal where an NPC would give me a certain type of bug to look for, and then I had pick up a jar and find that bug and use the right bug jar skill to capture it. Then find the right type of cow that liked that bug type and use another bug jar skill to feed the cow. The NPC had different timed goals depending on how confident you were that you could do it fast enough.

DEs were far more cooler, as you didn't need to be there when they started, or even stick around until completion. Plus they involved working with lots of other players. But the Renown Hearts offered sometimes very interesting options when I needed a break from DEs.

Access to special items that gave incentive to doing DEs for more karma.

I did not play a lot of heart quests during the BWE, I did that during press beta. I did not have the impression then, that a lot offered items for karma back then. Most of the time they just stood there, waiting for the event to reset. :/
But perhaps more rewards were included in the BWE.
There were only two I could remember: The commander in the fort south of Svanir's Dome sold me a necklace (which was the only jewellery item I ever got during the whole weekend) and somebody I can't recall gave me a mining pick which had a better chance of uncovering rare materials (we did not need to buy tools during the press beta, so this thing was better)

Gorani's Guild Wars legacy & the Kurzick Poet NPC in GW1
* Member of [GWO] & The Zoo Crew * Everything about the Elementalist on the forums *
Gaile Gray: "See Gorani's post, I note several ideas that might be doable and that seem very logical."

So you were just milking cows for fun and then when the progress bar filled up and you were like "wow where did all this endorphin come from?" you just went on milking cows for fun? mm k

Yes, except replace milking cows for "killing stuff" and "interaction with the environment", and also the bar being filled up provided no endorphins, fighting stuff did.

But that is incompatible with your views that someone might play a game for fun, so feel free to think I am deluded and actually addicted to grind. Incompatible with data as that might be, at least it's compatible with your worldview, and so it should reduce the tension created by inconsistencies between data and your worldview.

You walk into an area, there are the following quests available from a NPC:
- Kill 10 bandits
- Collect 10 apples
- Move 10 crates from A to B

Game example 2:
You walk into an area where you can participate in an event consisting out of:
- Kill bandits
- Collect apples
- Move crates from A to B

Now, please explain to me why example 1 is a boring grind, while example 2 is so much fun. Keep in mind that you will be doing either example the same amount of times.

Because in example 1 I HAVE to do the three things in order so it's more like:
1) kill 10 bandits
2) collect apples (while killing bandits without getting credit)
3) move crates (while killing bandits, no credit of course)

In example 2 I do what I feel like doing at the time. You may not believe this but sometimes I like to kill mobs, and sometimes I just want to collect some apples. Often this changes on the spot "I'm bored of killing let's go collect something". In example 1 I don't have that option. In example 2 I do, which removes the grind of doing all 3 things in a specific order. That makes option 2 non-grindy because it doesn't force gameplay upon me.

It's a bit like girls. They all like to put out, but they don't want you to force it on them. I like playing mmo's but I do not like it when they force their content on me. GW2 doesn't force content upon you if you don't want to play it. Just go play something else, even within the same heart, another heart, an event, dungeon or story.

Yes, grind exists even if you enjoy it, but that has nothing to do with what I said. There are non-grindy quests in WoW. Though you can't level efficiently by doing only those quests.

My grandfather was a third generation farmer, several of my uncles still have large farms. I used to help at many farms, both livestock and grain. In hearts, when I see a hungry cow, I feed him. The cow gave red hearts indicating he was fed, which is, to me, enough of a reward. I stomped some wurms since that's the natural thing for me to do on a farm. I ignored the raiding bandits since I didn't care about fighting. Heart completed without looking at the objectives. I even continued a bit because it's a heart with a very natural feel to it. I never even cared about the XP or karma. When I walked past the farm later in the beta, I always just gave a bit of food to the cows before walking on.

In WoW I also liked fishing and cooking a lot. There's nothing like walking to a lake after midnight, throw out your line and just chill by the water. Fishing in WoW gave me enough of an illusion to make it feel real, so I could just hang back and relax. Of all the things I ever did in WoW, I liked fishing the most. Often 2 other people were at the same spot. No talking, just chilling. I've sat next to level 30 horde while I was 60, but I left him alone. Most people whined about the fishing grind. I really liked to just use it to chill ingame.