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with your duaghters well being at stake, you CAN and maybe should tell her what her daughters are saying...however perhaps letting your daughters know, or asking them if it would help might be a key piece in doing so.

Look if either one of my boys were feeling down because of my wife's actions, you can bet your assuptions I'm going to say something to her.

Now...how I say something to her depends on the lay of the land.

Remember Bills and Kids, still have to communicate with her about.

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Experience is a brutal teacher, but you learn. My God, do you learn. - C.S. Lewis

Frank....Your D's have to interact with WAW. So maybe you SHOULD interact with her, and show them an example of how to do it successfully, rather than avoiding it! You are setting the example, and they can't follow it. So they are lost.

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JeffThe poster formerly known as dry_heat

Me-49D 11/30/09S12,16,21,22Current:Wandering Poster 56-Take a step that is new...Where the Rockettes Play!

Frank....Your D's have to interact with WAW. So maybe you SHOULD interact with her, and show them an example of how to do it successfully, rather than avoiding it! You are setting the example, and they can't follow it. So they are lost.

There isn't any 'example' I could show them. I could talk to WAS every day and it would not have any bearing on how SHE chooses to interact with her daughters. She doesn't talk to me the way she talks to them. She wouldn't dare.

She is not parenting them, she is acting like a teenager and when she's with them she doesn't listen to their needs, but instead tries to tell them what to do. If they rebel she gets emotional and says things like "I don't know why you hate me so much!"

If she's feeling needy or lonely she leans on them. She'll call D18 and want to 'talk' and if D18 is out with her friends and can't talk then WAW will get angry or tell D18 that 'she obviously doesn't care any more since she won't talk to her'. These are actual comments from D18.

D14 says she will come in her room at the condo and want to talk to her while she is in the middle of something and if she doesn't want to talk, WAW will often get upset and start to cry, saying to D14 that she's being unfriendly or other nonsense. These things hurt D14 so she withdraws.

I could go on, but the bottom line is the issues with 'interaction' are issues of emotional pressure. The girls are put under a lot of emotional pressure by their mother to be there when she needs them. When they don't want to she guilts them.

All I can do is provide a 'safe zone' where they know that they won't be subjected to the same emotional pressure when they are with me. I don't 'avoid' her, I just have no reason to deal with her. I could tell her what the girls tell me but that would be a violation of their trust, which I will not do.

She needs therapy. Apparently OM is not adequate as a support person (surprise) so she seems to expect her teenage daughters to take on that role. They don't want to, nor should they have to.

This week has been a real eye opener. With WAW gone and unable to call for a week it's like some burden has been lifted from the girls shoulders. Today at lunch with D18 we had a nice discussion about various things and she said "Dad, it's so nice to talk to to you because you don't get emotional like mom. You have no idea how much pressure she puts on D14 and I when we see her. We have to be carefule what we say so we don't get her upset. She is an emotional wreck"

So, somehow the D's have to learn that they aren't responsible for WAW's happiness. Sort of like you had to learn the same thing. D18 can probably see it, it sounds like she does. A lot harder for D14.

Yuck.

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JeffThe poster formerly known as dry_heat

Me-49D 11/30/09S12,16,21,22Current:Wandering Poster 56-Take a step that is new...Where the Rockettes Play!

First things first, don't bow to false idols..it's a biblical thing for the chosen people.

Frank, dude you have been in your head for so long I think you have forgotten how to find your way back to the temporal lobe so you can get out.

If your STBX is saying some of these things to your kids and you are not doing anything about it, there is a problem. You have an obligation as their father to:1. listen to them2. Counsel them3. defend them

As their dad you do not get to pick and choose which of the 3 you want to do and when. You just do them all. If your STBX is laying guilt trips on them, they need to confront her and tell her to stop it. You have to teach your girls to stand up for themselves even if it is their mother. She sure as hell counseled them to confront your alcohol issues. One of teh few kudos I have given her. If your girls confront her and she continues the negative behavior, then it is your JOB and RESPONSIBILITY to confront her yourself and teach her that you will not tolerate emotional abuse of your girls.

I will also caution you on one other thing here as I am seeing some signs that are sending up some big asss red flags. You have teenage girls, and what are teenage girls great at???? Got it yet?????

tick tock tick tock.......

Thats right Frank, manipulation. Teenage girls can sense that dad seems to be a little more loving and supportive when they bitch about mom. Teenage girls can see that dad overlooks some things when the girls are "upset" by moms behaviors. Teenage girls understand that that playing the sympathy card on dad makes life work for them.

Be careful Frank, I know your a good dad, I get that you are being a concerned father, but I wonder if you may be getting played a bit here.

So, somehow the D's have to learn that they aren't responsible for WAW's happiness. Sort of like you had to learn the same thing. D18 can probably see it, it sounds like she does. A lot harder for D14.

Yuck.

Yeah, D18 can get / stay away from her when she's in these 'moods' since she lives with me. D14 is sort of stuck in the messes since she lives with mom most of the time.

Last night D14 just started venting some more about WAW, OM and just the lifestyle she is stuck in. She started getting down on OM because he is a gardener / landscaper and I found myself defending the profession, but not him, because I don't think she should be judging someone based on their profession. How weird is that?

What I've gotten out of her venting is that her mom will drop conversations with D14 if OM comes over, or will disrespect her needs in favor of his needs. She's not mean or angry, just disrespectful

Now, this is what's weird. During this venting I asked her how often these 'things' happen? She says that OM is hardly ever over when D14 is there. Most of these things happened 'months' ago.

So, she's been stewing for a long time.

During this vent her tone of voice wasn't so much hurt as it was angry / sarcastic. And after her vents she seemed a lot more relaxed.

Last night D14 and her friend and I went to see Astro Boy. It was a fun movie. Life is getting better. WAW will bw back tomorrow night.

If your STBX is laying guilt trips on them, they need to confront her and tell her to stop it. You have to teach your girls to stand up for themselves even if it is their mother.

It doesn't come across in my previous posts but they actually DO confront her, all it does is make the situation worse because she is lost in emotions.

As far as them confronting me about my issues, the big difference is that I'm capable of empathizing with them and their feelings so I actually FEEL bad. She doesn't.

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Teenage girls can sense that dad seems to be a little more loving and supportive when they bitch about mom. Teenage girls can see that dad overlooks some things when the girls are "upset" by moms behaviors. Teenage girls understand that that playing the sympathy card on dad makes life work for them.

Be careful Frank, I know your a good dad, I get that you are being a concerned father, but I wonder if you may be getting played a bit here.

I understand your concern. Let me state that they don't get any special privileges and I continue to enforce my rules.

D14 still has to get off the computer to do her homework even if she doesn't want to. In fact, the past few days she has been initiating homework time on her own and then coming to show me that it's done.

They don't get any passes that they didn't get before. IN fact, I enforce more rules than I did when WAW was here because I don't have her contradicting me. I'm much more strict than she ever was.