I hope for more traditional space battles

Plus, they showed the other side of the black hole and it looked like the Narada was coming through at least partially intact.

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It went through the black hole and back in time and created another alternate universe in which Nero hangs around for 25 years waiting to kill Kirk who had stopped him after he hung around for 25 years in a different universe from killing Spock who had failed to save his home planet in a different universe in the future.

No different than Kirk and Sulu continuing to fire on Chang's Bird of Prey after it was clearly disabled in The Undiscovered Country.

Plus, they showed the other side of the black hole and it looked like the Narada was coming through at least partially intact.

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It wasn't traveling through the black hole, the black hole was forming in the middle of the ship and was sucking everything to the middle.

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If you go back and look at the end scene, it looks like at least part of the Narada remains intact and still has lights on...

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That's what I thought I saw. This time, there were pieces of it flying around from the collision with the Jellyfish and then attack of the Enterprise, but the FX looked like it was going "through" the black hole just as it had done, before.

Further, if Kirk was firing on a dying ship, then that was bloodthirsty, for lack of a better word. I was under the impression he was firing on the ship to destroy it before it disappeared and then, God knows what happens to it. Yet another universe disturbed?

The only thing battle wise that stuck out to me as bad was Kirk and co. firing on the Narada after it was already 95% obliterated by the black hole.

It just didn't seem to fit well with what Starfleet people would normally do.

"You can't escape your going to die, but we will help you"

"I don't want your help"

"Okay, shoot them then".

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Civilization on brink of extinction:

"Please help us, we want to live!"

"Sorry, non-interference and all that rot.."

"Oh, very enlightened, never mind--AAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!"

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Quoted for fucking truth!

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You mean: "Quoted because it is at best only superficially similar to the situation it is being compared to and the person doing so hopes no one will be able to point out why it's really very different."

Personally I don't think the Prime Directive is always a good idea. In fact it is sometimes carried to extremes, probably just to generate conflict etc. But in those situations the whole point is: The characters involved don't think it is a good idea either!

In other words in those situations we have a battle of competing principles which, correct me if I'm wrong, are resolved in the "right way" in the end most if not all of the time. I.e. I don't think any race has been actually left to become extinct because of the PD, have they?

In any event, notice how this differs from the quick change of heart by Kirk (almost like he had no intention of really helping in the first place), where there is no competing principle and no debate at the time or afterwards, by anyone we are aware of. Certainly no offical mention of it. That's why I agree it "... just didn't seem to fit well with what Starfleet people would normally do."

No different than Kirk and Sulu continuing to fire on Chang's Bird of Prey after it was clearly disabled in The Undiscovered Country.

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In my view very different actually. Kirk and Sulu had no way of knowing how or to what degree it was disabled. All they knew for sure that they had done was render it visible. If they had let up for an instant the tables might have been turned. There was no time to contemplate their navels as was "arranged" in ST09.

Plus, they showed the other side of the black hole and it looked like the Narada was coming through at least partially intact.

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It looked like they were trying to depict a three dimensional effect in two dimensions. But clearly the actual centre of the black hole was in the centre of the ship. I mean if the rest of the Narada was in another universe at that stage, how did we see it by just going "behind" the black hole? Later on we see what really happened to Nero's ship. In fact notice how that shot differs from when the Narada first enters the alt universe. Ie. We don't see the "other half" of it. Just a black circle.

It wasn't traveling through the black hole, the black hole was forming in the middle of the ship and was sucking everything to the middle.

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If you go back and look at the end scene, it looks like at least part of the Narada remains intact and still has lights on...

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That's what I thought I saw. This time, there were pieces of it flying around from the collision with the Jellyfish and then attack of the Enterprise, but the FX looked like it was going "through" the black hole just as it had done, before.

Further, if Kirk was firing on a dying ship, then that was bloodthirsty, for lack of a better word. I was under the impression he was firing on the ship to destroy it before it disappeared and then, God knows what happens to it. Yet another universe disturbed?

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Well, if you look at the scene around 1:46:31, all that is left is swirling debris and a few explosions/flames. There are no discernible lights. In fact even in the commentary they state that: "I think it is crystal clear that the ship is being broken in to tiny little pieces". As far as I can see that's all that disappears "when the lights go out". While you could argue Kirk didn't know what would happen, he did know the black hole started inside the Narada this time.

So, a black hole that ignites in the centre of a ship doesn't really sound like the sort of thing a ship can "fly through" despite the ambiguous nature of red matter black holes in ST09. That and because it looks like Kirk is reacting out of anger at being turned down, I believe more was needed by way of explanation for the scene to come closer to "normal Star Trek behaviour". Fans attempting to defend the film might come up with an excuse of course but who else would bother? Most people would just assume that's how Starfleet personnel behave.

You mean: "Quoted because it is at best only superficially similar to the situation it is being compared to and the person doing so hopes no one will be able to point out why it's really very different."

You mean: "Quoted because it is at best only superficially similar to the situation it is being compared to and the person doing so hopes no one will be able to point out why it's really very different."

Personally I don't think the Prime Directive is always a good idea. In fact it is sometimes carried to extremes, probably just to generate conflict etc. But in those situations the whole point is: The characters involved don't think it is a good idea either!

In other words in those situations we have a battle of competing principles which, correct me if I'm wrong, are resolved in the "right way" in the end most if not all of the time. I.e. I don't think any race has been actually left to become extinct because of the PD, have they?

In any event, notice how this differs from the quick change of heart by Kirk (almost like he had no intention of really helping in the first place), where there is no competing principle and no debate at the time or afterwards, by anyone we are aware of. Certainly no offical mention of it. That's why I agree it "... just didn't seem to fit well with what Starfleet people would normally do."

In my view very different actually. Kirk and Sulu had no way of knowing how or to what degree it was disabled. All they knew for sure that they had done was render it visible. If they had let up for an instant the tables might have been turned. There was no time to contemplate their navels as was "arranged" in ST09.

It looked like they were trying to depict a three dimensional effect in two dimensions. But clearly the actual centre of the black hole was in the centre of the ship. I mean if the rest of the Narada was in another universe at that stage, how did we see it by just going "behind" the black hole? Later on we see what really happened to Nero's ship. In fact notice how that shot differs from when the Narada first enters the alt universe. Ie. We don't see the "other half" of it. Just a black circle.

If you go back and look at the end scene, it looks like at least part of the Narada remains intact and still has lights on...

Click to expand...

That's what I thought I saw. This time, there were pieces of it flying around from the collision with the Jellyfish and then attack of the Enterprise, but the FX looked like it was going "through" the black hole just as it had done, before.

Further, if Kirk was firing on a dying ship, then that was bloodthirsty, for lack of a better word. I was under the impression he was firing on the ship to destroy it before it disappeared and then, God knows what happens to it. Yet another universe disturbed?

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Well, if you look at the scene around 1:46:31, all that is left is swirling debris and a few explosions/flames. There are no discernible lights. In fact even in the commentary they state that: "I think it is crystal clear that the ship is being broken in to tiny little pieces". As far as I can see that's all that disappears "when the lights go out". While you could argue Kirk didn't know what would happen, he did know the black hole started inside the Narada this time.

So, a black hole that ignites in the centre of a ship doesn't really sound like the sort of thing a ship can "fly through" despite the ambiguous nature of red matter black holes in ST09. That and because it looks like Kirk is reacting out of anger at being turned down, I believe more was needed by way of explanation for the scene to come closer to "normal Star Trek behaviour". Fans attempting to defend the film might come up with an excuse of course but who else would bother? Most people would just assume that's how Starfleet personnel behave.

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Just think about it for a sec.

If you could travel through a black hole and end up in an alternate universe AND a black hole formed in the center of your ship you have two options if one were to travel through it.

Move forward - This would transport your aft section through the event horizon and to "elsewhere", but it would end up destroyed because your forward section didn't make the same trip. It's sitting where you were originally without it's ass end.

Reverse - This would transport your forward section through the event horizon and to "elsewhere" but it would end up destroyed because your aft section didn't make the same trip. It's sitting where you were originally without it's front end.

Starfleet has exceptions to the PD, especially when a planet has a valuable mineral or drug ("Friday's Child", "Code of Honor")

If I was in a battle in space, I would like to have a reasonable distance between my ship and the opposing ship. I would use that distance for maneuvers, for avoiding debris chipped off the other ship, and for avoiding getting caught in the gravity well of the other ship. I could see using drones to chip away at the defenses of the other ship.

If you could travel through a black hole and end up in an alternate universe AND a black hole formed in the center of your ship you have two options if one were to travel through it.

Move forward - This would transport your aft section through the event horizon and to "elsewhere", but it would end up destroyed because your forward section didn't make the same trip. It's sitting where you were originally without it's ass end.

Reverse - This would transport your forward section through the event horizon and to "elsewhere" but it would end up destroyed because your aft section didn't make the same trip. It's sitting where you were originally without it's front end.

Both courses would destroy both halves of the ship in both universes.

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Chuck 'er in reverse Trev. Oops.

Actually, going through that black hole (wormhole) seems like trying to put your finger through the hole in a doughnut you have already eaten. *

Starfleet has exceptions to the PD, especially when a planet has a valuable mineral or drug ("Friday's Child", "Code of Honor")

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Hmmm. Good point. Perhaps the involvement of the Klingons in the first one is some excuse but I'm not sure about "Code of Honor". It does seem strange they would stand so heavily on "principle" sometimes but not others? Well, unless we are both missing something (I haven't rewatched the ep)?

When a black hole is forming in the center of your ship, it will be crushed (see Vulcan). And if that blackhole does indeed lead to another time or another universe, all that will exit there is debris.

Actually, I have never heard of "Walla Walla Public School" before, but I imagine its very nice.

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X

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Not even the real meaning?

You do realise you are dealing with someone who has only just memorised what IIRC means (Oh dammit!)?

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My bad... WWJS = What Would Jesus Say, so I'm asking
WWPS... What Would Picard Say.

I mean those discussions about the prime directive and non-interference in alien cultures were frequent and heavy-handed, and kind of spelled out what Starfleet was 'supposed' to do.

Not that that ended up happening in many cases.

Now in the case at hand, here's a guy (Nero) who exterminated an entire world and wants to go down with his ship. He tersely gets granted his wish by a cocky Kirk and bereaved Spock and goes out in a hail of gunfire, so to speak.

I don't see the issue with what is typical or not in terms of Starfleet. Even a seasoned Kirk once said of the Klingons, "Let them die..."

My bad... WWJS = What Would Jesus Say, so I'm asking
WWPS... What Would Picard Say.

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Ah, thanks.

I mean those discussions about the prime directive and non-interference in alien cultures were frequent and heavy-handed, and kind of spelled out what Starfleet was 'supposed' to do.

Not that that ended up happening in many cases.

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Well I think in at least one case Picard would have gone along with the PD because it was supposed to be a greater, if nonsensical good, but he wouldn't have liked it (I think in the case I am thinking of they found a way around it). But even when carried to such extremes, it is not the same as actively helping your opponent on their way to oblivion. Nor do recent discussions make it seem reasonable that the Narada could have passed through the black hole as it would have to fly around a singularity that was already inside the ship. Well, according to the commentary, which agrees with what we see and what makes sense. The visuals may have been more ambiguous but we and nuKirk know how and where the black hole was ignited.

Also going from "offering" help to execution does seem morally "unusual" to me especially when he had the safety of his own ship to consider which could have been an out. It looked like they just wanted to have Kirk and Co at least contribute to destroying the Narada and didn't understand how questionable the situation they constructed was.

Now in the case at hand, here's a guy (Nero) who exterminated an entire world and wants to go down with his ship. He tersely gets granted his wish by a cocky Kirk and bereaved Spock and goes out in a hail of gunfire, so to speak.

I don't see the issue with what is typical or not in terms of Starfleet. Even a seasoned Kirk once said of the Klingons, "Let them die..."

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By "cocky Kirk" you are suggesting he is not ready to command a star ship and therefore not representative of Starfleet behaviour? Problem is, Starfleet don't agree.

Anyway, the Romulan commander in "Balance of Terror", didn't receive the same treatment from Prime Kirk (granted he was a bit more diplomatic), despite the fact that his only excuse was "following orders". Nero was at least deranged to some degree.

Moreover Prime Kirk's attitude towards the Klingons was understandable given his personal circumstances (which is unlikely to be the Starfleet line anyway), but he didn't actually let them die, much less abet their demise. That is all the difference in the world (if not the multi-verse) to me.

By the way, Nero didn't really want to go down with his ship. He just didn't want help from Kirk. Had a Romulan ship been handy however ... .

It's actually funny that this conversation is happening now. My boss was the Visual Effects Supervisor for Nemesis, and I was actually having a conversation about the film the other day with him. When it was brought back to Digital Domain to do the effects, after Blue Sky Studios did Insurrection, he was saying that he actually did want to change a lot of the, I guess I would call,"traditional" aesthetics of certain things. He mentioned changes to the Warp effect, and the transporter effect. They even wanted to have much more elaborate CG camerawork during the battle sequences. Whether or not this would have resulted in a more Abrams style aesthetic I don't know, but it interesting to see what might have been. The producers were evidently very keen of keeping with what had been seen before, so they ended going up with a much more familiar style, but there were a few tweaks they were able to do, such as the slightly different warping effect for the Enterprise.

It just didn't seem to fit well with what Starfleet people would normally do.

"You can't escape your going to die, but we will help you"

"I don't want your help"

"Okay, shoot them then".

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Yeah, I don't think we've ever seen Starfleet personnel behave that way before.

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Well if we have, I'm afraid the following isn't it.

"Give me your hand!"

......

"I... have had... enough of you!!!"

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In your example the Klingon was actively trying to take Prime Kirk with him to their deaths (he had even said as much while Kirk was reasoning with him earlier) whereas Nero was not even capable of hurting nuKirk (unless his plan was to keep him talking long enough for the black hole to get them all! ). In short you are left trying to equate "self defence" with "murder".