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The fact remains that CTHD came out at a time when the wuxia genre had minimal to zero presence outside of its Asian markets (And the geeks like us in other areas) so ranting about the attention it got is unwarranted. CTHD simply worked for American/European audiences while maintaining the principles of the genre the best it could. And something it doesn't get any credit for is the level of polish the film got - made possible by a higher budget and Ang Lee's pulling power - had a reverse flow back towards Hong Kong.

The examples you listed are superlative examples of genre and are few and far between - although I disagree about the Fong Sai Yuk films as I think they're awful. The vast majority of wuxia films are awful wire-fu actioners pretending to be wuxia films. The 90s were prime example of this and the absolutely fucking shite ones that came out during the early days of CGI/early 00s were scraping the bottom of the barrel.

CTHD went a long way to respecting the genre again.

Yeeeeeah if two absolutely stellar comedies with some of Cory Yuen's best choreography count as "awful" to you I don't think we can be friends. :P Also, the vast majority of wuxia films...? I'm not sure how to parse that. Are you one of those people who think wire-work is an automatic black mark against anything? In which case your opinion is bad and you should feel bad. Not to mention I'm not sure what could possibly make up this vast tide of '90s awfulness you're talking about - I'm not denying Hong Kong/China/et al made some truly terrible movies, just I can't instantly think of fifty thousand terrible films that would remotely qualify as wuxia. Sarcasm aside, please, enlighten me - I read about/watched/reviewed Asian flicks for years, but it's not like I saw every film or was especially brilliant at writing about them - although seriously, Christ, if you don't like Fong Sai Yuk I think martial arts isn't really the genre for you. :)

(And I mean that in all seriousness; I could see why someone wouldn't enjoy Peking Opera Blues, but if they called it bad because of those qualities I could argue forever on how they were flat-out wrong to do so. It's goofy, wacky, low-budget and jumps between tonal extremes without warning, but it's also smart, funny, brilliantly choreographed and edited, and Tsui Hark plainly knows exactly what he's doing - every single one of those tonal shifts sees him totally committed to making it work, not just throwing slapstick in for the lulz or drama for cheap shocks or whatever. I don't think Fong Sai Yuk clears that same bar but I seriously think the same point can be made - it can seem jarring to foreign sensibilities but it's plainly not just throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks.)

Anyhow. I appreciate what CTHD managed to do: it's still a mediocre film that's entirely style over substance which was praised for things it didn't remotely accomplish by people who plainly didn't know what they were talking about, and I've seen nothing in the fourteen years since to make me seriously reconsider my stance.

It started six months too early and had to spin its wheels to wait until the post-Cap2 status quo was established. Most of my complaints with the tone of the show make sense in light of this movie and, from what I have heard, the show has actually been getting decent (possibly even good) over the past month or two.

I've heard the same and that the post-Cap 2 episode is the best one so far. You might be onto something.

Originally Posted by Serenegoose

is how Black Widow has a completely unforeshadowed gadget for every plot difficulty they might encounter.

I think you could make an argument that a lot of them are foreshadowed by S.H.I.E.L.D. as an agency having an answer for everything, but there was only one thing I took 'issues' with, the grappling hook to swing under the bridge. Inverted commas because it was too awesome for me to care. I agree on the whole, the film took itself as seriously as it needed, which is something I think the MCU has done an excellent job of doing thus far, a really commendable effort.

Originally Posted by gundato

But in both cases, I doubt either would be interesting for a non comic reader. None of the characters shown are particularly well known outside of comics.

I know the main point you were getting at is slightly different, but consider this; Marvel has been able to successfully get into cultural acceptance a god who wields a hammer based off of Norse mythology, alien invasions, a genetically enhanced super human whose name and design couldn't be more patriotic if it tried in a time where fondness for the US overseas isn't exactly stellar and by the end of a year, a gun-toting raccoon. If anyone is going to make non-comic fans aware of the potential in what is shown, it's going to be Marvel.

Which, again, makes me bloody wonder what on earth DC is doing with all its goodies.

Also, it might seem obvious, but I just went to see Captain America 2: Captain Is The Highest Rank. Who'd've thought? And it was really, really great! What a complete turnaround after the first Cap film. I just only wish I had remembered it was half term and going during the day was a stupid, stupid decision.

Have you heard how he got the voice-over work for it? It's great. Something along the lines of when GotG was announced, he posted on Facebook saying that he had been contacted by Marvel, as a joke, to suggest he was in the film. They then did actually contact him as a result of his post and offered him the voice work for Groot. So there you go, Vin Diesel showing you how to get a job - pretend like you do already and then you'll be offered it!

I know the main point you were getting at is slightly different, but consider this; Marvel has been able to successfully get into cultural acceptance a god who wields a hammer based off of Norse mythology, alien invasions, a genetically enhanced super human whose name and design couldn't be more patriotic if it tried in a time where fondness for the US overseas isn't exactly stellar and by the end of a year, a gun-toting raccoon. If anyone is going to make non-comic fans aware of the potential in what is shown, it's going to be Marvel.

I'm still concerned Guardians may be a bit too "out there" (even for comic book readers, DnA's run was kind of "out there"), but yeah.

My main point though is that, when I saw Thanos at the end of Avengers it gave me a bit of happy in the pants. When one of my friends saw him, it was just "Oh, that looks interesting" and no real interest beyond there.

Which, again, makes me bloody wonder what on earth DC is doing with all its goodies.

Insisting on rebooting the same two characters over and over and over again?

That is actually an interesting point. Iron Man, Cap, and Thor are Marvel's "big three" in-universe, but they were basically completely unknown outside of comics (until the movies). The REAL "big three" are Wolverine, Spider-man, and a team-up between Wolverine and Spider-Man (in large part because of the cartoons over the decades).

DC/WB meanwhile focus on their two core characters (who, admittedly, are insanely well known) at the cost of just about everyone else. And when they DO try to branch out, they do it stupidly (Green Lantern was a perfect opportunity to have "The first superhero movie with an african american lead that hasn't been hunted down by the IRS in the past decade". Instead, they went with a mixture of Hal Jordan and Guy Gardner... Also, they wasted Ryan Reynolds who should never have been allowed near a "serious" role but would have been a perfect Wally West-Flash).

Admittedly, DC got screwed by the Nolan films. They were REALLY REALLY good, but they aren't world builders. The House of Mouse started the current wave with plans to at least build on every movie (I forget if they had Avengers planned before or after Iron Man did so well, but the movie definitely had the right hooks). But constantly failing to reboot Superman is their own damned fault. Especially since that is the one character who they DON'T need an origin movie for.

Have you heard how he got the voice-over work for it? It's great. Something along the lines of when GotG was announced, he posted on Facebook saying that he had been contacted by Marvel, as a joke, to suggest he was in the film. They then did actually contact him as a result of his post and offered him the voice work for Groot. So there you go, Vin Diesel showing you how to get a job - pretend like you do already and then you'll be offered it!

Yeah. I may not like most of the movies he is in, but Vin Diesel is indeed awesome. And of all the hollywood actors who claim to be "one of us", I have no doubt in my mind that he really is the kind of guy who plays D&D and loves video games and comics.

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I'm still concerned Guardians may be a bit too "out there" (even for comic book readers, DnA's run was kind of "out there"), but yeah // My main point though is that, when I saw Thanos at the end of Avengers it gave me a bit of happy in the pants. When one of my friends saw him, it was just "Oh, that looks interesting" and no real interest beyond there. //That is actually an interesting point. Iron Man, Cap, and Thor are Marvel's "big three" in-universe, but they were basically completely unknown outside of comics (until the movies). The REAL "big three" are Wolverine, Spider-man, and a team-up between Wolverine and Spider-Man

The trailer for GotG that ran before Cap 2 earlier seemed to have enough people interested from audience reaction. It is out there, but they've laid the way quite well. As for Thanos, well, I have no idea who it is, but I think that even if the name holds no weight to you, a being that is living in space and commands various armies and is hunting various artefacts, with only one causing mayhem on Earth, is probably going to make you be interested when necessary for the future.

For your list, I'd add Hulk. Whilst films might not have done the character much favour, he's definitely remained in the cultural memory. Big green dude who sheds his clothes and yells "Hulk smash!"? Easy enough to remember!

Yeeeeeah if two absolutely stellar comedies with some of Cory Yuen's best choreography count as "awful" to you I don't think we can be friends. :P Also, the vast majority of wuxia films...? I'm not sure how to parse that. Are you one of those people who think wire-work is an automatic black mark against anything? In which case your opinion is bad and you should feel bad. Not to mention I'm not sure what could possibly make up this vast tide of '90s awfulness you're talking about - I'm not denying Hong Kong/China/et al made some truly terrible movies, just I can't instantly think of fifty thousand terrible films that would remotely qualify as wuxia. Sarcasm aside, please, enlighten me - I read about/watched/reviewed Asian flicks for years, but it's not like I saw every film or was especially brilliant at writing about them - although seriously, Christ, if you don't like Fong Sai Yuk I think martial arts isn't really the genre for you. :)

(And I mean that in all seriousness; I could see why someone wouldn't enjoy Peking Opera Blues, but if they called it bad because of those qualities I could argue forever on how they were flat-out wrong to do so. It's goofy, wacky, low-budget and jumps between tonal extremes without warning, but it's also smart, funny, brilliantly choreographed and edited, and Tsui Hark plainly knows exactly what he's doing - every single one of those tonal shifts sees him totally committed to making it work, not just throwing slapstick in for the lulz or drama for cheap shocks or whatever. I don't think Fong Sai Yuk clears that same bar but I seriously think the same point can be made - it can seem jarring to foreign sensibilities but it's plainly not just throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks.)

Anyhow. I appreciate what CTHD managed to do: it's still a mediocre film that's entirely style over substance which was praised for things it didn't remotely accomplish by people who plainly didn't know what they were talking about, and I've seen nothing in the fourteen years since to make me seriously reconsider my stance.

Corey Yuen's best choreography work was on Dragons Forever, In the line of Duty 2, Shanghai Express and Eastern Condors; not the Fong Sai Yuk films. Hell, even No Retreat, No Surrender 2 was pretty great action wise. Admittedly the Sai-Yuk films are fun dialogue wise but the action is terrible with an over reliance on flying around and not actual fighting. It also commits the crime of not actually showcasing Jet Li's skills unlike in the Once Upon a Time in China series (Upto 3, all the ones after that are woeful).

Peking Opera Blues is a wonderful piece of work as are many other gloriously silly but wonderful films from the 80s - Zu Warriors from the Magic Mountain comes to mind in particular. As for the awful films I was thinking about are the likes of The Storm Riders and the ilk it spawned.

And i'll take your view about what genre is meant for me under advisement.

Corey Yuen's best choreography work was on Dragons Forever, In the line of Duty 2, Shanghai Express and Eastern Condors; not the Fong Sai Yuk films. Hell, even No Retreat, No Surrender 2 was pretty great action wise. Admittedly the Sai-Yuk films are fun dialogue wise but the action is terrible with an over reliance on flying around and not actual fighting. It also commits the crime of not actually showcasing Jet Li's skills unlike in the Once Upon a Time in China series (Upto 3, all the ones after that are woeful).

See, I'll hang my head here like a good little boy and admit I haven't seen a single one of those. ^_^; I still think you're coming across like one of those people who just doesn't care too much for aerial wirework - I like grounded, "real" fighting but I have no problem with flying around if it's done well, which is one reason I criticise CTHD because I really don't think it was. And I like FSY enough - I just put my old DVDs back on to check I wasn't romanticising it - that I struggle to think of any film that could make me think the action in either was sub-par. But at the same time, however much I'd agree or disagree with you overall, there's a ton of HK movies I know are extremely well-regarded that I haven't seen, so seriously, I'll stick those on my list.

(No argument over The Storm Riders, though. Ew.)

(Also, EDIT: If you're wondering why I haven't seen stuff like the films you mention, I only got into Asian cinema around the time of Infernal Affairs, and while I tried to play catchup, I was somewhat hit and miss about it.)

Whilst reading a little more than I should have, I'm led to believe the headphones/music plays a bigger role than might initially seem. Thor 2's was apparently hastily thrown together. Even without knowing that, you could tell watching it.

Whilst reading a little more than I should have, I'm led to believe the headphones/music plays a bigger role than might initially seem. Thor 2's was apparently hastily thrown together. Even without knowing that, you could tell watching it.

Yeah, I AM a comic book fan and even I found the Thor 2 one to be pretty shitty.

And the headphones thing just felt like a "Oh, yay, he is hip and modern" while letting them segue into a musicy montage.

And mostly what I was getting at is just that, for a normal person, they are basically trailers/ads. They may boost a bit of hype, or they may just be the same as if we saw Clark Gregg before Coulson existed. So I can see how some people may be willing to skip (not me though, I sit there until my vision is yellow tinted).

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Yeah, I AM a comic book fan and even I found the Thor 2 one to be pretty shitty.

And the headphones thing just felt like a "Oh, yay, he is hip and modern" while letting them segue into a musicy montage.

And mostly what I was getting at is just that, for a normal person, they are basically trailers/ads. They may boost a bit of hype, or they may just be the same as if we saw Clark Gregg before Coulson existed. So I can see how some people may be willing to skip (not me though, I sit there until my vision is yellow tinted).

He's not hip and modern. The headphones and the walkman are from his own time. The fact that some guys and gals in flannel shirts might listen to it ironically makes no difference to why it makes sense that Starlord would have a walkman with Hooked on a Feeling on cassette.

Even with how crazy GOTG is I see it doing well just because it's another big movie from Marvel and until they release one thats really bad, every Marvel movie is going to do well at the box office between now and whatever comes after that movie.

"Halo is designed to make the player think "I look like that, I am macho sitting in my undies with my xbox""

Nóż w wodzie (Knife in the Water) by Roman Polański. It was his debut and his only movie he made in Polish language.
The communists hated this movie, so Polański had to left Poland, because he wouldn't be able to make another film there.Nad rzeką, której nie ma (you can loosely translate it as "By the river, which doesn't exist") by Andrzej Barański. It's another Polish movie and it's one of the best I've ever seen. I don't know if it was released outside Poland, but if you have a chance to watch it, do it, especially when you like nostalgic movies.

See, I'll hang my head here like a good little boy and admit I haven't seen a single one of those. ^_^; I still think you're coming across like one of those people who just doesn't care too much for aerial wirework - I like grounded, "real" fighting but I have no problem with flying around if it's done well, which is one reason I criticise CTHD because I really don't think it was. And I like FSY enough - I just put my old DVDs back on to check I wasn't romanticising it - that I struggle to think of any film that could make me think the action in either was sub-par. But at the same time, however much I'd agree or disagree with you overall, there's a ton of HK movies I know are extremely well-regarded that I haven't seen, so seriously, I'll stick those on my list.

(No argument over The Storm Riders, though. Ew.)

(Also, EDIT: If you're wondering why I haven't seen stuff like the films you mention, I only got into Asian cinema around the time of Infernal Affairs, and while I tried to play catchup, I was somewhat hit and miss about it.)

Keep in mind the films I listed are out and out action movies; the only exception being the Once Upon a Time in China films which are wonderful wuxia movies based on Wong Fei-Hong (Probably China's greatest modern day folk hero). The first film in particular is an excellent watch.

I'll point you to these two posts for more martial arts/wuxia films to check out:

Few things: the plot made no sense. None of it. SPOILERS: so the alien sentenced the humanity to death because they are killing the planet. Hokay. I can live with this idea. What does not make sense is that he will kill off humans and all life at the same time. so in order to save the planet from us he would kill the planet. Also if he already decided to kill us off why would he land in the middle of Manhattan and then ask to speak to UN? Finally the end: he gave his message that if we want to live on Earth we need to stop fucking it up. and then turned off electricity on the planet. how the hell are we supposed to follow his message if a)the message was delivered to a random woman in desolated NYC b)no way of spreading it around the world. c)turning off our machines will result in increased damage to environment while we fight to survive.

plot holes and stupid decision would make this a silly movie.

but they had to put an annoying kid in the main role. the hell? do people actually enjoy seeing whiny kid messing stuff all the time, being jerk and just nuisance to everyone? Every single scene with him was cringeworthy.
also retarded us government officials... unfortunately that's probably truth in television as I can totally see american government trying to attack an UFO just because it violated their airspace and illegally parked in their park.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I think Kubrick was outdone. The other Lolita, from 1997, is in some case superior to his version. Quilty goes from loveable rogue to a disgusting pervert and Humbert looks even more pathetic.
Dolores gets to be the main character, manipulative and provocative, but at the same time childish and immature.
It's also much more risqué, and downright uncomfortable at times. There's a lot of innuendo and a comedy side that wasn't explored in Kubrick's film.

Well you could get away with a lot of stuff in 1997 that Kubrick couldn't get away with in fact he was banned with what he had in it so it kind of makes sense. But I actually think that experience probably made him into a better director and lead him into the more art house direction, he wanted to say all this stuff and to outright say it would have gotten him banned so he put a lot of the deep themes in the weird direction and acting he would use.

He's not hip and modern. The headphones and the walkman are from his own time. The fact that some guys and gals in flannel shirts might listen to it ironically makes no difference to why it makes sense that Starlord would have a walkman with Hooked on a Feeling on cassette.

Yes, Phishey is correct, you see (spoilers?): Starlord left Earth when he was a child. He probably had only whatever he was carrying with him at that time. The walkman may be one of the few ties he has back to his home (though where he would get batteries for it is beyond me).Just a guess based on his modern origin from the comics. Exact opposite of hip and modern.

Keep in mind the films I listed are out and out action movies; the only exception being the Once Upon a Time in China films which are wonderful wuxia movies based on Wong Fei-Hong (Probably China's greatest modern day folk hero). The first film in particular is an excellent watch.

I'll point you to these two posts for more martial arts/wuxia films to check out:

Make sure you absolutely watch Zu Warriors from the Magic Mountain. It was a direct influence on the brilliant Big Trouble in Little China. There's a few more I can list when i'm done with work.

I do appreciate the thought, but I'm not quite that out of touch. ;-) I know who Wong Fei Hong is (I get the joke at the start of Fong Sai Yuk), I've seen/I own all three of the original OUATiC movies, and I've seen the original Zu Warriors (as well as the "sequel", God help me). And yeah, I looked up all the ones you mentioned just now, so I note they're "Plot? Was there a plot?" films.

EDIT: Heh, while you clearly know your stuff - I've seen a few of the films you namecheck in your older posts, but not all - again, you do come across as more of a GOD DAMN KIDS, SWANNING ABOUT ON THEIR HIGH WIRES, IN MY DAY FLYING WAS FOR THE BIRDS type. :P No argument on avoiding the older US editions for the most part, though. Christ, I'd love to buy more foreign cinema (of any genre) on iTunes et al - I've sold a couple of hundred DVDs because I got fed up with having so many discs around and I couldn't afford to keep adding to my collection at the same rate. But digital in the UK has next to nothing, rental or purchase. :(