@AceTrainer: Good point with the other pokemon. They're just not ones that i really use, so they didn't come to mind.
@Lawence Codye: Well, I think that dragon generally works best when they pokemon in question has a good movepool (of course, all other types are the same...) The only weakness to dragon is ice, which would be countered by the water, if i'm not mistaken. But then again, dragon is only strong against dragon, so some issues there...
The grass/dragon could be interesting. Definitely has some options. Some kind of nature spirit... could also make a good legendary, if done rite.

If a grass/dragon could be made a good legendary, i don't really see it becoming a starter

I really don't see a possibility for dragon to be one of the starters.

lol what if they went a completely different direction, as this is called black and white, maybe there's only two starters and depending on which one you pick, the story changes for you to be good or evil (in the end no matter what, you eventually becoming good) and the starters are Normal/Dark and Fighting/Psychic.

Even knowing that they have claimed this to completely renew the Pokemon franchise, let's not be too hasty in saying that it will be that radically different. After all, we've already had four generations with that pattern for starters.

Not to say that we need to keep the starters in the same pattern, but it's a great way to debut early some types work better over others (especially for the kids picking this up for the first time). That being said, it would be really cool to do something different, and to be entirely honest, look at all the possibilities... As for me, it doesn't matter. I'll still want to collect all the Pokemon anyway.

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I agree, if Dragon is to be a secondary typing for starters, give it to Grass. Be fair. Grass has enough weakness as is. It would benefit the most whereas combining it with fire is overkill.

Thank god you see my point AceTrainer!

rex09 wrote:

@Lawence Codye: Well, I think that dragon generally works best when they pokemon in question has a good movepool (of course, all other types are the same...) The only weakness to dragon is ice, which would be countered by the water, if i'm not mistaken. But then again, dragon is only strong against dragon, so some issues there...

Well, Dragon is not only strong against Dragon but is super effective against it so Water/Dragon's only weakness is Dragon which is too much for a starter & as AceTrainer said, Fire/Dragon really is overkill (especially for a starter), so if they were to even consider using Dragon as a secondary type for any starter they must be reasonable & give it to the Grass Type for more balance...

Ajit wrote:

lol what if they went a completely different direction, as this is called black and white, maybe there's only two starters and depending on which one you pick, the story changes for you to be good or evil (in the end no matter what, you eventually becoming good) and the starters are Normal/Dark and Fighting/Psychic.

This would be a bad idea cause the Fighting/Psychic's Fighting attack could easily do x4 damage to the Normal/Dark type but the Normal/Dark's Dark Type couldn't even do x2 damage to the Fighting/Psychic type which is just stupid...

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@ajit: hmmm, the good or evil thing could be interesting. but, i think it would be a little too intense to have to make big (even if they're only in a game) moral decisions for little kids (and some immature older ones).
@lawence codye: good points. i guess because of the lack of weaknesses/strengths/supereffectives for dragons, they may not be viable for a starter... but still, if you think about the way it might make the sprites look, one could be hopeful (since that's usually how i pick the starters the first time around anyway lol).
the fire/grass/water thing just makes a little more sense. of course, the secondary types are just there to spice things up a little bit. plus, you know how each game has a easy/medium/hard starter, based off of growth curve and gym types?? i think those are there to make the differences a little more distinct. plus, that adds a necessity for three different starters with different capabilities.

I think we can safely put up a list of types that should not be considered secondary.

Normal for obvious reasons.
Ghost, at least not for the early stages as it would be quite overpowered in the beginning.
Fighting, at least not for fire. It's over rated.
Dragon. If it will be, it has to go with Grass.
Psychic. I don't know. I just don't feel like having a part psychic starter. Psychic type pokemon usually have to have their own niche, and not combined with other types.

2ndary types on starters have FAR more to do with flavor than function - with the exception of poison on Grass Starters as many have pointed out grass is generally the weakest off the bunch.

I'm far more concerned with their abilities - "powers up x moves in a pinch" has never really been that cool an ability, as if you're in a pinch you have to cross your fingers and hope the other guy doesn't strike first... good luck with that.

I'm on record for asking for pickup be their 1st form ability - it is useful early game AND useful late game (for those who don't like to evolve their starters, like any given anime character... ). It's also a FUN ability, and has tangible results. 2nd and 3rd forms, I think, should have competative in-battle abilities, probably tailered to the starter, thematically. I think they should ballance these abilities, but I don't think that'd be too hard to do. For example, it would be relatively easy to give each starter a "IF YOU TOUCH ME, effect" ability - burn, poison, and... uh... sleep? All in all, these would be fair and far more handy than torrent and the like.
_________________________
My own personal preference is that we have a pair of games based off of "nature vs science" or "nature vs nurture", and you begin the game by choosing a fossil to reanimate - that is your starter. Say a velocerator plant, a snake/eel water, and a sabertooth cat-fire starter.
Then you should go next door for a "lecture" on pokemon and when you leave it turns out that your male starter (starters would all be male - fossiles should have a m/f type in this game) has been found holding an egg with a female 2nd or 3rd evolution of your teacher's starter pokemon. For example, if you picked the grass starter, you'd get a baby torchic with the egg move "egg hatch" (from your veloceraptor), where egg-hatch is a flying move that can be used out of battle to hatch eggs that are close to hatching). Your snake can have bred with a treecko and learns the egg move water-squirt, which can be used out of battle to water berry plants, and your fire-cub starter can have bred with a mudkip? to give you a mudkip that knows "excavate", a ground move that can be used in caves/tunnels to initate an under-ground-esque "mining" operation to find shards/stones/fossiles, and occasionally fight pokemon like diglett.

If this were the case you'd have the first set of starters which would be all new 3 evolution fossil/science starters, while the 2nd group of starters would be old starters you hatch from eggs and learn about egg moves.

Of course, I also want you to get a 3rd group of "evil" starters when you join Team Rocket early in the game, so you'd end up with 3 "starters"...

well, labarith, you bring up some good points. But don't you think some of that stuff would make it too easy?? i mean, we are called pokemon [i]trainers[i] for a reason. And i'm sure that the power up abilities aren't really that bad. but nonetheless, i see your point. Just, types are what are important in my opinion, as they affect what kind of moves and pokemon you need (if that makes sense). hmmm, i like the list of secondaries that shouldn't be secondaries, AceTrainer (even if they eliminate two out of three of my combos from earlier lol). They make sense. So, what, then, are they going to make the secondary types? (since they're probably already done with that)

well, labarith, you bring up some good points. But don't you think some of that stuff would make it too easy?? i mean, we are called pokemon [i]trainers[i] for a reason. And i'm sure that the power up abilities aren't really that bad. but nonetheless, i see your point. Just, types are what are important in my opinion, as they affect what kind of moves and pokemon you need (if that makes sense). hmmm, i like the list of secondaries that shouldn't be secondaries, AceTrainer (even if they eliminate two out of three of my combos from earlier lol). They make sense. So, what, then, are they going to make the secondary types? (since they're probably already done with that)

The way I imagine ballancing the 3 starters and 2-3 early "gift" pokemon I imagine is that Team Rocket has cut off the supply of pokeballs, so you can't catch new pokemon early on - until after you've jointed and then beaten them. However, there's no reason this needs to be the case - having one natural starter and one egg-starter won't hurt anyone in any given game - at worst, it'll make older starters easier to get, which is good for the game I think.
As for the power-up abilities - they're boring. And designed to be boring. I'd much ratehr have an in-game useful effect like pickup early on, THEN switch to generic and boring power-up abilities late game. Pokemon will ALWAYS have a tension between "in game-good", "in-battle-good", or "in-side-game good" (which I think side-games, like the pokathelon and the contests should be changed to add EVs to pokemon and/or experience points - so we can TRAIN while having fun), which is fine. All I'm saying is that if the starters have pickup, it'll lead to a lot more surprises for the new kid playing pokemon. "Wait, how'd my X come to hold a potion? AWESOME!"
As for types - sure, they matter. But they're usually not the main focus of the starter pokemon - sure, I'd like to see my velocertaptor grass guy become a flying grass psuedo legendary bird, but the fact that it's third evolution is a flying/grass type isn't what makes it a good starter, and shouldn't unballance it in any way. I think we'd all be happy with ANY 2nd type as long as it makes sense and doesn't disrupt the rock-papers-scissors aspect of the starters. At the end of the day we can't guess 2nd types until we know what the pokemon looks like, and even then it's often hit ormiss.

Like 6 or 7 years ago, me and my friend came up with an idea for a pokemon game. Instead of choosing from 3 pokemon, You only get to choose from the 1, but you could choose from 2 or 3 different items, that would somehow evolve the pokemon at a certain point in the game. Say, the Starter is Normal, but the three forms are Normal/Fire, Normal/Grass and Normal/Water. That's kind of dumb, but the concept was interesting. Then pokemon XD came out, and did exactly that, with Eevee.

Like 6 or 7 years ago, me and my friend came up with an idea for a pokemon game. Instead of choosing from 3 pokemon, You only get to choose from the 1, but you could choose from 2 or 3 different items, that would somehow evolve the pokemon at a certain point in the game. Say, the Starter is Normal, but the three forms are Normal/Fire, Normal/Grass and Normal/Water. That's kind of dumb, but the concept was interesting. Then pokemon XD came out, and did exactly that, with Eevee.

Well, the idea is that in the hand-held-game you'd run into other players w/ games. Having multiple starters was good for this, as it increased diversity early on and taught about weakness/strengths.

However, I've always liked the ability of getting an eevee-like pokemon early such that you could evolve it as you went on and increased diversity late in the game as well.

On a side-note, one thing I think the game needs is a "2nd team" system where you have a special 6 pokemon "2nd team" box that is used when you plug into the wii-corresponding game, or for certain areas/mini-games in-game. This would encourage you to get more pokemon and train more pokemon earlier. That is to say that you wouldn't only have one team, you'd have two teams - teams you could mix and match from, and the like.

Thu May 06, 2010 1:43 pm

Lawence Codye

Psypoke Maniac

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:17 pmPosts: 2512Location: With the 3 guides of time, deciding the fate of it...

@lawence codye: good points. i guess because of the lack of weaknesses/strengths/supereffectives for dragons, they may not be viable for a starter... but still, if you think about the way it might make the sprites look, one could be hopeful (since that's usually how i pick the starters the first time around anyway lol).
the fire/grass/water thing just makes a little more sense. of course, the secondary types are just there to spice things up a little bit. plus, you know how each game has a easy/medium/hard starter, based off of growth curve and gym types?? i think those are there to make the differences a little more distinct. plus, that adds a necessity for three different starters with different capabilities.

Okay...this is kind of void since before each gym leader there is always have been a wild pokemon that works well against them, always, but whatever...

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Sounds like the starter trio will be revealed as silhouettes on Pokemon Sunday this week, and revealed fully the week after or until Corocoro leaks sometime next week. For real this time! Hoping for a bird-based Grass starter and a dolphin Water starter.

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Thu May 06, 2010 4:32 pm

Lawence Codye

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Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:17 pmPosts: 2512Location: With the 3 guides of time, deciding the fate of it...

Sounds like the starter trio will be revealed as silhouettes on Pokemon Sunday this week, and revealed fully the week after or until Corocoro leaks sometime next week. For real this time! Hoping for a bird-based Grass starter and a dolphin Water starter.

Thank you for this Frost & yes, I will hope as well for the 2 starter species you are hoping for...as I kind of want them too...

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dolphins would be cool i wonder what they'll make the fire type?? hopefully something that hasn't already been done (turtles, for instance). a grass bird would be interesting. but, i guess we'll just have to wait and see.

@lawence codye: good points. i guess because of the lack of weaknesses/strengths/supereffectives for dragons, they may not be viable for a starter... but still, if you think about the way it might make the sprites look, one could be hopeful (since that's usually how i pick the starters the first time around anyway lol).
the fire/grass/water thing just makes a little more sense. of course, the secondary types are just there to spice things up a little bit. plus, you know how each game has a easy/medium/hard starter, based off of growth curve and gym types?? i think those are there to make the differences a little more distinct. plus, that adds a necessity for three different starters with different capabilities.

Okay...this is kind of void since before each gym leader there is always have been a wild pokemon that works well against them, always, but whatever...

Brock if you chose Fire had nothing to beat him.
I always had to level a Caterpie to evolve and learn Confusion.

I think they should bring this back, but make Water the "hard mode".

rex09 wrote:

i wonder what they'll make the fire type?? hopefully something that hasn't already been done (turtles, for instance).

However, I also hope they take a few completely new animals to use for the starters.
Dolphin really would be neat.
For grass maybe something that starts as a walking patch of grass, whose final evolution is a giant tree.
Haha, I'd love to see this.

dolphins would be cool i wonder what they'll make the fire type?? hopefully something that hasn't already been done (turtles, for instance). a grass bird would be interesting. but, i guess we'll just have to wait and see.

For crying out loud, can all the sheep on this forum stop begging for a dolphin just because someone did an unconvincing mockup w/ it?

You all know it would take some kid 2 seconds to ask how it can flop along beside you or fight on dry land. And yes, we know this is a "flavor problem" with many water pokemon - specifically those that look like fish - but there are strong flavor reasons for that NOT to be the first thing they think of.

Just because someone made a fake pokemon based on a dolphin doesn't mean everybody who wants a dolphin for the water starter based their wish on the fake.

Secondary types are there not only for flavor. I'm not saying it's more for function, just that it's not solely for flavor. It comes as both, but since this is an opinion thread, I think there's nothing wrong in putting secondary types for balance, because that would add more flavor if balance is placed, instead of one starter just owning the other easily. That is boring.

Grass starters that are of bird-like characteristics is somewhat weird, just like a grass starter being based purely on plant form. I mean the previous all had reptilian characteristics. Just saying.As for fire starters, I both suggested one that looks like a lion/saber-tooth and a terrapin (turtle relative) on the first or second page.

Just because someone made a fake pokemon based on a dolphin doesn't mean everybody who wants a dolphin for the water starter based their wish on the fake.

Secondary types are there not only for flavor. I'm not saying it's more for function, just that it's not solely for flavor. It comes as both, but since this is an opinion thread, I think there's nothing wrong in putting secondary types for balance, because that would add more flavor if balance is placed, instead of one starter just owning the other easily. That is boring.

Grass starters that are of bird-like characteristics is somewhat weird, just like a grass starter being based purely on plant form. I mean the previous all had reptilian characteristics. Just saying.As for fire starters, I both suggested one that looks like a lion/saber-tooth and a terrapin (turtle relative) on the first or second page.

1. Hyperbole
2. I don't dabble in opinion, I find that's a word soemone drops to avoid talking about the issues. All I'm saying is that 2ndary types on the starters are usually tied to their final forms via flavor, not so much "Hey, I need to ballance out this starter... let's make him a dragon too!".
3. Leaf Feathers. In case you missed it, I advocated a dinosaur-like first form, which is consistent with the past.
4. Good for you. I advocated it because I have a "you choose a fossil, it gets reanimated" theme. You?

I'm terribly sorry for everyone who's not Labarith right now, I usually try not to be an arse hole.

Labarith, how old are you, 9?
Any time you speak about anything, you're sharing an opinion.
What issues are there to avoid?
Why are you making this a debate?
This is a cartoon-styled Platformer Game we're talking about, in case you missed that.

If you don't want to dabble in opinion,
you can stop posting on forums and getting everyone's leaf feathers riled up while we share ideas on new starters.

okay, things are getting kinda heated in here...
personally, i like dolphins because they look cool. i mean, have you ever met someone who absolutely hates dolphins?? i haven't (that crap with the cove documentary doesn't count. they're just trying to feed their families.). i dislike turtles as a starter simply because it's been done twice; let's please move on.
@AceTrainer: that's what i've been saying all along!!! (not that i said it first, just i agree with the idea.). secondary types also influences looks, which is important!! and it's how i choose my starters the first time around anyways lol. so, secondary types chosen for balance and looks offered are the best choices, in my opinion.
alrite, for forms i want:
a shark water type (not to be reminiscent of , mind you; more of a great white than pirahna meets sunfish)
a forest spirit kinda thing for grass (like princess mononoke meets shiftry, idk)
a phoenix fire type (but then again, birds are also overrated... gah, this is difficult!!!)
the only one of those i'd be incredibly happy with is the shark. but with that one, dolphins are just as cool.

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Fri May 07, 2010 1:10 pm

Lawence Codye

Psypoke Maniac

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:17 pmPosts: 2512Location: With the 3 guides of time, deciding the fate of it...

I'm terribly sorry for everyone who's not Labarith right now, I usually try not to be an arse hole.

Labarith, how old are you, 9?
Any time you speak about anything, you're sharing an opinion.
What issues are there to avoid?
Why are you making this a debate?
This is a cartoon-styled Platformer Game we're talking about, in case you missed that.

If you don't want to dabble in opinion,
you can stop posting on forums and getting everyone's leaf feathers riled up while we share ideas on new starters.

You're solely confused on several things:
1. When you say something is "just an opinion", you MEAN to say that it is not true, or to cast doubt on it's veracity. "Grass is green" is NOT an opinion.
2. When people speak (well, when NORMAL people speak), they usually speak about objective, easily accessable facts. Indeed, to speak of anything that is inherently private is to NOT speak, it's to misuse language. I mean, if YOU are 9, I can understand you not understanding that inherently private languages are at leastly highly questionable, if not inherently incoherent, but not otherwise.
3. Finally, it always shocks me when people who FAIL to convince others that something is "just their opinion", they inevitably turn to the "It's not that important anyways! It's a kids/baby's/fun/not-serious/fantasy/etc., and thus - despite the fact I am indeed talking about it now - not worth talking about it.

FACT: We are talking about it, so unless you're "not right" in some mental or moral faculty, you assent it *IS* worth talking about.
FACT: We are discussing objective, coherent, concepts accessable to others by a shared language. To say "X is good" is to assert an objective, potentially verifiable assertion about X. To deny this is to misunderstand the role of language and to convey nothing.
FACT: When you say "it's only an opinion", you are trying to undermine the other person's position. You are flatly denying the above, asserting that you are infallible because you're "only" talking about an opinion, and any criticism there-of is inherently wrongheaded.

Now, if you want to type gibberish that isn't intended to convey anything, go right ahead. But if you use english words, don't fault others for interpreting you as if you were conveying coherent, publicly accessable concepts with meaning and purpose.

PS, next time you want to play captain cornholio, know who you're dealing with. Actually, better yet, don't.

okay, labarith and spoinkable, that was totally uncalled for. neither one of you is actually posting about the subject of gen.v starters. i know i'm not a moderator, but you guys should just pm that crap so the rest of us don't have to see it. kay??
now, @spoinkable: i was looking at my earlier posts, and what i meant by (turtles for instance) was that they had already been done. but i think i mistyped or something, so no biggie. now that it's been quoted, don't want to confuse people by editing it....
@lawence_codye: brock's easy, anyways. if you can train to a sufficient level, you don't have to worry much about it. of course, as you pointed out, it does learn metal claw, so he becomes easy for everyone.... to tell the truth, on frlg i didn't really notice the usual easy/medium/hard differences that are so distinctive.
whatever the starters are, i know we'll all live with it.... as long as there are no birds this gen (but that's just me, because i'm sick of blaziken and empoleon; great pokemon, but birds, turtles, and fighting types are overdone). shark water-type, saber-tooth fire type, and whatever grass type!! just to combine everyone's ideas.

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