June 24, 2012

Judging from the talk on the convention floor, one would hardly know that they had experienced a huge defeat this month in their effort to recall Wisconsin’s governor, or that they faced lawmakers and voters across the country who have grown increasingly unsympathetic to public sector workers....

At most they're saying, they lost in Wisconsin because they were outspent, says Gary Chaison, a professor of industrial relations at Clark University, but "It would have been much more encouraging if they said, ‘We lost because we are out of touch with the public.’ They don’t understand that in hard times, everyone must sacrifice."

Numerous studies have shown that wages for public sector and private sector workers are not far different. One analysis found that government workers with college degrees tend to have lower wages than private sector workers with similar educations, while those without college degrees tend to do better than their private sector counterparts.

But public employees generally have more generous health and pension plans. In a report this month, the Bureau of Labor Statistics said state and local workers averaged $26.85 in wages an hour, with compensation totaling $41.16 an hour when pensions and other benefits are included.

Designing the pay package like that is a way to keep the public from seeing how generous it is. What happened in Wisconsin was a new transparency. Something most people hadn't noticed became the focal point, as Scott Walker and the GOP legislature selected, for budget cutting purposes, exactly the item that people hadn't really noticed. It wasn't about cutting salaries or firing public workers, so when they protested, they were yelling about something that looked rather lavish to other citizens... which made them sound out of touch and entitled.

“I wouldn’t write off labor unions just yet. Their obituary has been written frequently over the past 70 years,” said Harley Shaiken, a professor of labor studies at the University of California, Berkeley. However, “the status quo for them is untenable,” he said. “Unions will require imaginative, bold leadership going forward.”

But at the convention, AFSCME voted for Lee Saunders as their new president, and he's saying:

“We have to be as politically active as we can possibly be in the 2012 elections at the national, state, local, school district level because there are a lot of people out there who want to hurt this union and who want to hurt you,” he said. “We have to be organized to fight back.”

I think they are looking at the overturning of the Ohio SB5 union reform as the standard, whereas that was actually an outlier. I hope they stay clueless and real public union reform keeps rolling along everywhere else. It's long past time to correct this.

I read an interesting article the other day that posits that the Imperial Federal government is entering the uncharted territory of "zero sum spending." It suggested that instead of dividing the pie as usual (the parties fighting over only how much each constituent received), in this age of "limited resources" government will now be forced to pay only Peter or Paul - something neither party is particularly adept at.

The Unions haven't gotten this memo - the taxpayers understand the memo.

While we can't say of the public sector unions that they are entirely at fault for pricing themselves out of existence (the entitlement mentality is also to blame), as was the case with the private sector, their hard Left radicalism, born of the 60s, has accelerated the issue.

What is lost on the public sector unions minds is that the private sector taxpayers are realizing that they are going to get hit with higher taxes to pay for public sector workers pay, benefits and pensions, taxes that will provide them with not benefit at all. Worse still the private sector taxpayer is seeing in Obamacare an attempt to reduce their earned benefits, see the coming Social Security reductions, their principal retirement plan that they contributed to for an average of 40 to 45 years while the public sector gets to get pensioned off after only 30 years. Are they that stupid or blind that the private sector taxpayers wouldn't notice or willingly accept becoming indentured servants to the public sector mandarins?

No, sounds like a guy trying to make a bunch of money and then lock in a retirement before it's too late.

BTW I had dinner with a bunch of people who did not know, had never heard, that public employees are forced to pay dues and that upwards of 80% of those dues go right back to the pols who "negotiated" their pay.

If people make bad career choices thats their problem, not the taxpayers. As long as they get paid they are owed nothing more than the private sector workforce.Public servants aren't draftees, they can quit anytime of their choosing. Nothing is stopping them from going into the private sector if they think they can get better pay and benefits, most won't because most can't.

Hardly anyone ever mentions one of the major reasons why the health care costs were so high for the public sector in WI - the massive overcharging for the union sponsored health plan that was mandated by contract. In Milwaukee alone, Barrett managed to use the ability to get competitive bids to save $19 million annually on health care costs for the same plan with a private insurer and balanced the city budget. Why do you think he never even mentioned the union reforms in the recall - because it worked so well it even saved his ass.

The only governmental units that ended up with budgetary problems were the ones where the unions forced new contracts to be signed before the reforms were passed. They were stuck with the overpriced union insurance.

And this was only for non-essential personnel. I wonder what similar union goodies are in the contracts of the really powerful police and firefighters' unions.

Has anyone added up the total savings statewide on the health insurance? I'd sure like to see that analysis.

And while they're at it, how about we see what this union price-gouging is costing nationwide. I'll bet that's a major source of the hundreds of millions of dollars they throw at Democrats exclusively every election cycle to get a friendly "management" to "negotiate" with.

The real test of whether public workers are overpaid, underpaid or paid just right is how many of them leave voluntarily for jobs in the private sector. If Walker's reforms were so unfair to public employees, they must be leaving the civil service in droves, right?

Unions, in many cases, are led by the children and grandchildren of former stellar union leaders. These offspring are the beneficiaries of nepotism and temd to be incimpetent and lack vision. Hence, unions have not adapted to a chsnging world. Here in Philly, the UCFW is led by Wendell Young III, the carpenters union is led by a son of a former president and there are a few others I can't think of at this time.

Here in Philly, the average SEPTA worker [transit system] has a gross salary of $90,000 and that is a 20% increase from 2008 in the midst of a recession. If / when the voting public grasps this simple fact, they will be pissed.

Here in Philly, the average SEPTA worker [transit system] has a gross salary of $90,000 and that is a 20% increase from 2008 in the midst of a recession. If / when the voting public grasps this simple fact, they will be pissed.

AJ, it's the people in the 'burbs (Main Line, etc.)that are going to have to raise Hell about that. They're the ones who need the Paoli Local et al. to escape the Schuylkill.

PS I remember Wendell Young.

I also remember several transit strikes that made my life ever so much fun. I can't weep very much for the poor, benighted transport workers.

the private sector taxpayers are realizing that they are going to get hit with higher taxes to pay for public sector workers pay, benefits and pensions, taxes that will provide them with not benefit at all.

1) public workers pay taxes and buy things like houses, clothes, food and school supplies. Private sector are not the only ones supporting the economy. Boo Hoo.2) Do without any public sector workers, who are of "no benefit." See how you like it.

Worse still the private sector taxpayer is seeing in Obamacare an attempt to reduce their earned benefits, see the coming Social Security reductions

So employer/employee-funded "earned benefits" and Social Security are good? Which side are you on? Looks like you just jumped horses in the stream there when it suited your interest.

BTW I had dinner with a bunch of people who did not know, had never heard, that public employees are forced to pay dues and that upwards of 80% of those dues go right back to the pols who "negotiated" their pay.

I'm tired of the emotional blackmail from the left. This isn't about teachers, firefighters and police. This is about economics, budgets and unfunded liabilities.We cannot afford to give government unionists whatever they want.

You would think they would want to be fair and join in the shared sacrifice. You would think they would welcome the transparency. After all, Obama campaigned on transparency. Turns out transparency is a bitch.

What I don't get is: If paying public workers less is better for the state, why aren't YOU voluntarily asking for a pay DECREASE to help the company you work for? They would be much better off! They could hire more people if you weren't such a narcissist! Are you too selfish? Greedy? Lazy? Corrupt? Thug? Radical?

Althouse? How bout working for half what you work for now? Throw us a lifeline!

"If you want public workers to make sacrifices when times are tough then you ought to be in favor of giving them raises and bonuses when the economy is booming."

The bonuses that I gave my employees were in return for extra effort or good results due to their actions. The public employee unions have made merit pay illegal. Why would you give a bonus for doing nothing extra ?

Wow Leslyn! I had no idea you had it so hard! Now, instead of worrying about it once a week, for 2 years think about this. I've been a carpenter for 35 years. Somedays I have work, somedays I don't. There have been WAAAY more don'ts the past few years. And, as a benefit of unlimited illegal immigration, the average pay of a carpenter hasn't gone up in those 35 years. A carpenter avaraged $14 an hour 35 years ago, today it averages $14 an hour. Ohh, starting pay is $8. I can build a house from the ground up, everything, and I do not do good work, I do great work.

Now, factor in a depressed housing market, and rampant unemployment. How many openings are there for over 50 carpenters with bad knees, multiple hernias, and hard of hearing (no hearing protection when I started).

Now try to imagine, I know it's hard for you but try, how I feel about democrats(and republicans I admit, but dems are worse) who lead the charge to eff up the housing market, and promote illegal immigration? Try to imagine the anger that burns in my heart for Zero giving millions of illegals amnesty.(as I said reps did it too, if anything I despise them even more).

And you worry you MIGHT get fired from a government that hasn't fired it's buggy whip inspectors?

Please...

Ps.

Before it's suggested, I tried changing careers. Got my cdla and drove a truck for 1/2 year but my hearing combined with my apnea to get me medically dq'ed. Didn't like the people I worked for so I ain't crying over that.

@ Carnifex: the father of one of my daughter's best friends is a carpenter. Her parents were telling me that in better times he pulled 40-50 hours a week, never less than 40 hours in a 5-day workweek, at his regular job. Now, some weeks he does 30 hours in a 4-5 day workweek. So, he has been doing side jobs on Saturdays & Sundays to get to at least 40 hours in a week - if he's lucky he might get 50 hours by working 7 days. Playing havoc on the family: 3 young kids, the wife works 3rd shift, and the kids are missing out on quality summer family time.

How many Public Sector Workers put in 40-50 hours at straight time over a 7-day period?

Some of their kids elementary teachers make $80,000 a year over a 9-month period. They get all summer to spend with their kids. And most of them are out of the school within a 1/2 hour of dismissal. Same lesson materials are used every year, so there isn't much time needed for after-hours lesson planning either. Get paid personal days off during the school year too.

These people used to have an Obama sticker on their car, but I'm sure they voted for Walker in the recall.

2) The notion that someone in the private sector needs to force his/her company to give him/her better benefits instead of reducing public sector employee benefits is childish logic.

3) Leslyn? The MAJORITY of unions dues goes to supporting democrat politicians, whether you think so or not.

4) As to your comment that that 'firefighters and police' endorced Walker. Yes, a minority did but the well over 80% of those unions endorced Barrett, something you should know.

5) The truth is that some state employees *have* gotten screwed. No raises for the past few years for the rank and file while people with senority got bumps. Were they and the teachers have really been taken advantage of is in having any raises go to reduce insurance premiums instead of in their pocket, but again, the union administrators are to blame for that.

Merit Pay and Motivation in the Public Workforce: Beyond Technical Concerns To More Basic Considerations: s article examines the influence of workplace participation and job enrichment in promoting employee motivation. Using data gathered from a panel survey of public employees in Washington state, the authors found workplace participation and job enrichment to be more salient determinants of public employee motivation than merit pay. They also suggest that the adoption of a participative performance appraisal system may even improve employee attitudes toward compensation. http://rop.sagepub.com/content/7/2/54.abstract.

State employees to receive $24 million in merit pay Posted on 11 May 2012. http://arkansasnews.com/2012/05/11/state-employees-to-receive-24-million-in-merit-pay/.

The merit system owes its start in Alabama to a determined effort to generally ... personnel.alabama.gov/Content.aspx?.

An analysis of data The Associated Press obtained through an open records request showed Wisconsin agencies have handed out more than $765,000 in bonuses and merit raises this year to nearly 220 employees.

Former Democratic Gov. Jim Doyle suspended a program in 2008 that allowed state managers to give employees bonuses or raises to keep them from leaving or to equalize their pay. Most unionized state workers weren't eligible for that program, however. Walker's program, in contrast, covers almost all other state employees. http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/walker-reinstates-bonuses-despite-budget-shortfall/article_3d9e5de4-8b0f-11e1-affa-001a4bcf887a.html.

@ Tiger: Were they and the teachers have really been taken advantage of is in having any raises go to reduce insurance premiums instead of in their pocket, but again, the union administrators are to blame for that.

And they got double-screwed, because the "reduced" premiums they were paying were actually "inflated" premiums going to the WEA Trust plan, which was charging above market rates.

Do without any public sector workers, who are of "no benefit." See how you like it

If they are of "no benefit" I wouldn't miss them at all. If they are of "no benefit" why are they even employed anyway? What the hell are they doing if they are not providing a benefit.

With the possible exception of police and fire departments and in our area the road crews who plow the snow, pretty much all public sector employees, including teachers (who are among the dumbest people on earth) do not provide a benefit.

I'm tired of the emotional blackmail from the left. This isn't about teachers, firefighters and police. This is about economics, budgets and unfunded liabilities

Truly. The lefts wants to scare us and try to put a guilt trip on us. Boo hooo. The teeeeechers will be laid off. OMG we are all gonna die if we have less police. In reality no one wants to have "LESS EFFECTIVE" police and fire protection. We just want to have AFFORDABLE services.

What I don't get is: If paying public workers less is better for the state, why aren't YOU voluntarily asking for a pay DECREASE to help the company you work for?

Because I have no interest in my company doing better, except insofar as it redounds to my benefit?

In private sector unions, the employer is the stockholders, and the union is organized against them. It is accordingly entirely possible when the interests of the employers and the union clash, the public interest might be on either side, since neither side is directly aligned with the public. Thus, figuring out what regime of laws best serves the public interest is complex, and may well include extensive rights and privileges for unions.

In public sector unions, the employer is the general public, and the union is organized against them. It is accordingly impossible that when the interests of the employer and the union clash, that the public interest is on any side except that of the employer, which is the public. Thus, figuring out what regime of laws best serves the public interest is simple; smash the unions flat so they can't possibly oppose the public interest.

My company has been profitable 2 years out of the past 10. And those 2 years werent exactly booming profits.

Meanwhile, the school district I lived in built a brand new elementary school about 15 years ago when times were running good, and has now asked for money in a referendum 3 out of the last 4 election cycles, despite my property taxes going up every single year. And the teachers of this school district rushed through a contract before Act 10 guaranteeing them 2% pay increases.

Im sorry, I dont feel one bit sorry for these assholes complaining now that they've been pulled away from the taxpayer tit. Why? Because they dont care at all about us in the private sector, except when they want to ask for more money in referedums or tax increases.

I also know that it's because small communities cannot support a paid department. When they can, they do

I am quite certain the City of Troy, Michigan, with 80,980 people and a median household income of $79,000, could support a paid fire department if it wished. Nonetheless, they still have a volunteer fire department, which is not backed up by a county department. And it seems to work out pretty well for the 22nd safest city in America.

"4) As to your comment that that 'firefighters and police' endorced Walker. Yes, a minority did but the well over 80% of those unions endorced Barrett, something you should know."

Tiger. Milwaukee Police and Fire, West Allis P & F, and the State Patrol endorsed Walker for Governor.Milwaukee P&F are by far the largest such union in Wisconsin.

Although Act 10 protects the State Patrol (the supt is the Fitzgerald bros daddy) and municipal (read: Milwaukee) P&F from additional benefits contributions, the State Patrol and West Allis P&F threw their support to Barrett in the recall.

In the private sector, those have Grievances Degrees probably get pay less than those working in MickyD.

Also missing: the govt workers who are dissatisfied with their pay could get a private sector job if they are qualified. But the private sector workers could seldom get a govt job unless they are "connected".

Who "rushed through" the contract, and how did they do it? Don't you have a schoolboard there to deal with "these assholes"?

Thats the favorite liberal line when talking about schools...taxpayers are supposed to stay out of school matters. Leave it up to the "school board".

Well, all but 2 members of the school board signed the Walker recall petition. So why dont you tell me how that turned out. This is exactly what is talked about when we say there are union people on both sides of the negotiating table.

People like you on the left need to start coming out of denial. Public sector workers in this state just got a huge slap in the face from voters in this state. Its up those union folks to actually listen to that slap, and respond accordingly.

AJ Lynch said... Here in Philly, the average SEPTA worker [transit system] has a gross salary of $90,000 and that is a 20% increase from 2008 in the midst of a recession.

The average SEPTA salary in Philadelphia for 2012 was $51,000. http://www.simplyhired.com/a/salary/search/q-Septa/l-philadelphia%2C+pa.

Wages for a bus operator start from $14.12/hr to $15.28/hr., depending on assigned location. All starting wages increase annually by 10% for the first four years. After four years, the top hourly rate ranges from $23.55/hr. to $25.47/hr., depending on location. http://autohire.careershop.com/septajobs/JobSearch/JobCenterViewCndt.asp?JobAd_Id=865364.

Dust Bunny Queen said, to "Do you think the real estate bust has anything to do with your property taxes?" Only if you go to the trouble to have your property re-assessed at a lower value. Or if you are buying a home at the lowered market value.

Appraisal is simple and not very expensive, and can be submitted for a reassessment. It might be financially worth your while.

But my point was that lower property values result in less taxes collected, so tax rates may go up to make up the difference.

Do you think the lowered property tax revenues from the real estate bust will have an affect on the ability to pay ever higher salaries and benefits to public workers? Ever higher. :) Isn't that what your voting has been ensuring will not happen?

Also, the RNC says 617,000 public jobs have been lost, including 265,000 of those teachers you hate. "Trickle-down economics" will ensure that you see some relief that way, right? (bwaa haa haaa!)

The Farmer claimed that in good times, govt. employees don't get raises and bonuses.

A few minutes websearch, focused on San Jose showed that "disability retirement" was going to people that could still work. Retirees were getting "bonus" pension checks. Pension benefit costs to the city had tripled over a decade, at a time when revenue had only risen 20%. As a result, the City of San Jose had budget deficits for ten years in a row, all because of the cost of municipal employees. Voters approved bond issues for a police substation and four new library branches, and they were built -- but never opened, because the City's budget was too strained to staff them.

The article that Ms. Althouse quotes says "the Bureau of Labor Statistics said state and local workers averaged $26.85 in wages an hour", which corresponds to a pay of $55,848.00 annually. That figure is more than the median household income in the U.S., more than twice the median individual income in the U.S.. The bloated benefits come on top of the fifty-six large per annum, and we haven't even begun to discuss "double dipping."

The fact is, over the past fifty years, govt. employees have had their wages and benefits go up faster than inflation, and faster than the average in the private sector. So cut the crap, lefties, please?

I think the "bold, imaginative" leadership's first move is going to be some kind of giant inflatable rat. That's what the academic meant.

Next: Sabotage.

Unions don't do givebacks voluntarily as any actual student of the labor movement would know. They are waiting for a bailout, or for the taxpayers to come to their senses and "take out those sons of bitches."

There is, of course, an opportunity for an equitable solution which leaves most workers still in a better situation than most of us in the private sector. But the unions, institutionally, can't go there, never have, never will. It's the story of the scorpion.

Leslyn, you are wrong that "it is untrue" that 80% of union dues go to political donations. The union rep in sworn testimony in our case asserted just that, and the judge reduced our non-member fees to 80% of what they were previously.

I know you're going to throw a bunch of links and quibbles at that statement, so rather than assert the 80% for every union, I will just say that a huge preponderance of the collected fees go to politicians.

And I see no reason that most govt workers need to be unionized, except to lock in the steady stream of money back to the pols "donated" by a privileged class of employees.

"Upwards of 80% of those dues go right back to the pols who "negotiated" their pay."

I'm confused. This statement says dues go to those who "negotiate" "pay." Your last post says the dues go to politicians. Which is it? I'm not counting union stewards and officials who are directly involved in employer-employee negotiations as "politicians." Are you?

three in 10 workers who have what those in the business call a DB plan these days.

DB programs in the private sector frequently bear little or no resemblance to traditional pension plans like those enjoyed by public sector employess. They are typically not bottomless lifetime pension benefits.

leslyn, I've only worked for one company during my 25 year professional career that offered what was call a "defined benefit" plan. This amounted to a yearly contribution that equaled 3% of my yearly salary. The contribution would cease when employment was terminated. There were no additional contributions once the worker retired. The plan was discontinued during the economic downturn in 2009.

"This amounted to a yearly contribution that equaled 3% of my yearly salary. The contribution would cease when employment was terminated. There were no additional contributions once the worker retired."

Aren't all plans like this? My Wisconsin plan is. How would an employer continue making contributions for someone who is no longer employed, or after they retire?

leslyn, "in public employment the unions "negotiate" with the legislature for pay increases for employees. They in turn receive campaign donations from the unions." "They" presumably meaning legislators.

Maybe they negotiate differently in California.

I think you are just a sloppy writer who prefers not to be accountable for it and enjoys gratuitous snide remarks. So back atcha.

No. Some pension plans pay a percentage of salary earned during an employee's peak earning years. These payments continue for the lifetime of the employee. Sometimes the payments continue for the life of the spouse should the employee die first.