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I want to play the arrangement by Egon Petri of the Bach Choral Prelude, "I Step Before the Throne, Lord"... (should pass muster as contrapuntal.)

I have a Manuel Ponce "Prelude and Fugue on a Theme by Handel" which is a bit more big chord and bass boomy, a la Busoni, (ergo perhaps not a winner for Poly), but it's by a less known composer who I think could merit some exposure here.

Ponce also has a Prelude and Fugue on a theme by Bach, for the Left Hand, which sounds more contrapuntal (contrapuntal harmony may occur more often in works for the left hand?). Not so big chord/bass boomy, and not as flashy as the Handel (ergo no recordings), but I think it's worth a go.

While googling found a paper: "Brahms’s Choral Music and His Journey to Contrapuntal Transcendence" by a Joseph Schubert.

Very interesting history: Brahms took up a serious study of "early music" with the Schumanns in 1853 and studied counterpoint with the Schumanns and Joseph Joachim, with whom he exchanged weekly counterpoint exercises. Supposedly this influenced his later works, especially choral and chamber music. Mr. Schubert lists piano works between 1854 and 1860 which he feels have more contrapuntal flavor: the 4 ballades, Schumann variations, Piano Concerto No 1, but also says: "The use of counterpoint, particularly canonic writing, can be found in virtually all of Brahms’s instrumental compositions, and was therefore a part of his style from, at the latest, 1851." In this context, he mentions the Eb RHAPSODY (which I play). What say (Poly? ?) is this a tolerable counterpoint/fugue foil?

More brainsturming: Found this: Variationen: “Mein junges Leben hat ein End”, by Jan Pieterszon Sweelinck (1562–1621) and it is very nice. This would be a "before Bach" counterpoint, history of, etc?

Re: Rachmaninoff. He has a (newly published?) Fugue in D minor, and the Bach violin Partita arrangement (wish I could play either but would take months++). My Bb prelude is not very counterpointy, however perhaps the D major prelude # 4 is (two intertwined voices, canonical)??

So I'm thinking Bach-Petri Choral Prelude (which would be enough), maybe Ponce: one of his "Preludes and Fugues" (leaning to the Left Hand), and something late: ie Brahms, Rachmaninoff, or (please please) a Chopin Etude. Would the c# min #4 Etude Wreck the Rectal???

Well, none of those pieces suggested are fugues or canons, except for the fugue parts of the Ponce works, so only those would qualify for my suggestion, but then again we don't have to do this my way.

If we do decide to do it my way, however, I will be happy to assemble a large collection of fugues from all time periods, to pick from at our leisure.

Ooo, can you post that list? Then people can see if anything catches their interest. Whether or not we have 2 full hours of uninterrupted fuguehood and canonization.

Keep in mind this is by no means an exhaustive list, although it did take me 45 minutes to write.

Pre-Bach

SweelinckFantasia ContrariaHexachord Fantasia

Buxtehude3 Fugues, BuxWV 174-176

Bach era

BachToo many to list. The 48 from the WTC, for starters, and there are dozens, if not hundreds, of miscellaneous organ fugues available in piano transcriptions. Then, there's anything from the Suites - same thing for Handel. Canon-wise, there are the 14 canons on the Goldberg ground - it would be very interesting if someone did that cycle. I could do it myself, if no one else. There are also the selections from the Musical Offering - some canon, some fugue - and of course the Art of Fugue.

ScarlattiG minor fugue, K30

Classical

MozartC major fugue, K394G minor fugue, K401

Clementi3 Fugues, Opus 5

BeethovenWe could use the Eroica fugue - not really the Diabelli fugue. I doubt anyone's going to volunteer to play the Hammerklavier fugue. There are also assorted posthumously published fugues in the Hess catalogue.

Romantic

Reicha36 Fugues, Opus 36

Schumann4 Fugues, Opus 727 Fughettas, Opus 126

ChopinFugue in A minor

BrahmsWe could use the fugue from the Handel Variations...I'm pretty sure there are also organ fugues in piano transcription.

RegerFugue from the Telemann VariationsFugue from the Bach Variations111 Canons in Two and Three Parts (quite a bit of material there!)Fughetta, Opus 44/8

Now that Tim and doctor S have posted these latest suggestions and armed with these extra ideas from Polyphonist I am also liking the idea of canons/fugues as an anchor for the recital, as long as it doesn't prevent other things from being played as well.

Well, if you feel like making fugues the theme, I can probably get the one in C minor from WTC I up to a listenable standard :P I remember dropping it, however, because I could never figure out when to bring out the 2nd counter-subject.

If the 4th french suite qualifies as being good counterpoint (it is sometimes canonic as well, think gavotte and gigue. Actually a lot of it is ), I'd be more than happy to work on it. As for the Rach stuff, I think it's a great idea. Lots of times the reason I love Rach is due to the polyphony and inner voices.

_________________________
FarisSelf-taught for around 3 years now. All advice welcome

Yikes, fugues are the bane of my existence. I've somewhat shot myself in the foot with this one. I typically avoid fugues at any and all possible times.

Oh well, I do have to say that 2 hours of fugues and cannons is a rather ridiculous program in my opinion. Although I'm not opposed to having a program centering around fugues, cannons, and polyphonically rich music, I think great care should be given not to make a program that gives the listeners a musical stomach ache due to the richness.

Mark_C
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 20323
Loc: New York

I wouldn't put it quite so strongly but it seems to me that something so focused and specialized (and it is!) should be reserved for perhaps a later edition of this new feature of the site, after it's been rolling for a while and has established itself and when maybe a bit of "spice" is needed, rather than the inaugural one. But the more modest version of this that was initially discussed -- i.e. contrapuntal works alternating with others -- seems like it could work great on all counts.

Ok, lol, maybe not quite so strong. When one considers the fact that one isn't being subjected to sitting through the entire program at once, then it's feasible. I just can't imagine going to a live recital with such a program.

I do think half a program of fugues and cannons can work in this instance. I do also think that the latter idea you mentioned, Mark, is a far better one.

Just so you know, this piano recital does not involve heavy artillery. We are talking about canons here.

I thought you Yanks don't go in for understatement?

_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

Heather, thanks for assembling this! Personally, I like both the repertoire as listed and the order of presentation. I will therefore proceed with polishing the Ravel and Schoenfield for recording next month.

So I see we're not going for anything in particular regarding a contrapuntal theme. In that case, why not just put the recital in chronological order. I don't think the chorale preludes should be first; better to have the French Suite take that position. I will be inserting a Schumann fugue somewhere into the recital as well.

So I see we're not going for anything in particular regarding a contrapuntal theme. In that case, why not just put the recital in chronological order. I don't think the chorale preludes should be first; better to have the French Suite take that position. I will be inserting a Schumann fugue somewhere into the recital as well.

It sure looks like a counterpoint themed recital with several fugues to me! To you, does 'theme' mean 'many pieces that have this characteristic' or 'absolutely no pieces that do not have this characteristic'?

French Suite first is fine.

What would be the rationale behind presenting pieces in historical order?

I'm used to programs in historical order mainly because it is the format of the RCM requirements - Baroque, Classical, Romantic, Late Romantic, 'Modern'. Some like to order a program according to keys but I don't know if that's something an audience actually will pick up on.

I could possibly also play a 2 part invention or a straight up Bach Chorale.

Mark_C
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 20323
Loc: New York

When I was a lad, which was about 300 years ago it was pretty usual for the pieces in a program to be more-or-less in chronological order. It seemed to me that this had changed in the last few decades at least to the point that there was no expectation that this would be so; the order seemed to be more on the basis of overall 'flow' or 'emotion' or 'structure'-- in other words, whatever would seem to make musical sense or narrative sense or dramatic sense. In any event, I'm quite sure it doesn't particularly go against anything if your order isn't chronological.

About what Vid said about doing it according to keys: I think that's quite unusual, except to the extent that it's not uncommon to group two pieces together (or maybe a few, but usually two) according to their keys.

BTW, FWIW, here's what was the order in my first recital, which was 42 years ago (and, need I say I wasn't any kind of pace-setter):