Are there any Nikaya Suttas that support khanikavada (theory of momentariness)?

I am not asking about suttas on general impermanence; I am already aware of them. I am interested in suttas that talk about (or at least give hints) about momentariness (impermanence at its extreme)? I know Abhidhamma talks about it but I don't know if any Nikaya Suttas do.

---The trouble is that you think you have time------Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe------It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

I do believe that Ven Dhammanando had something to say on the subject: Are there any Nikaya Suttas that support khanikavada (theory of momentariness)? Mostly, I would say that one will not get much support for the idea here, but I'd ask Ven D about it.

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++++++++++++++++This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

There is freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning. If there were not this freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning, then escape from that which is birth, becoming, making, conditioning, would not be known here. -- Ud 80

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

tiltbillings wrote:I do believe that Ven Dhammanando had something to say on the subject: Are there any Nikaya Suttas that support khanikavada (theory of momentariness)? Mostly, I would say that one will not get much support for the idea here, but I'd ask Ven D about it.

If I am not mistaken, Ajahn is returning to his mountain locale and may not be online again until November.Robertk may also be of help.kind regards,

Ben

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

tiltbillings wrote:I do believe that Ven Dhammanando had something to say on the subject: Are there any Nikaya Suttas that support khanikavada (theory of momentariness)? Mostly, I would say that one will not get much support for the idea here, but I'd ask Ven D about it.

If I am not mistaken, Ajahn is returning to his mountain locale and may not be online again until November.

Bummer.

.

++++++++++++++++This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

There is freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning. If there were not this freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning, then escape from that which is birth, becoming, making, conditioning, would not be known here. -- Ud 80

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

Yes, he mentioned on his facebook page last night. Though I am not sure exactly when he is going. He could have already gone for all I know.kind regards,

Ben

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

---The trouble is that you think you have time------Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe------It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

Since Sam has asked for references from the suttas which support the notion of momentariness, I am moving this topic into the Classical Theravada Forum. To keep this topic tightly focused, for the purposes of discussion only sources from the Nikayas are considered authoritative.Thanks for your cooperation

Ben

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Thanks everyone for your replies and for the links.Cooran's link to past discussion and the book (thesis) is very useful.

Thanks robertk for Guhatthaka-suttaniddeso which, as pointed out by tiltbillings in the past thread, is a commentary. But I think it is authoritative as it is a part of Nikaya. I hope there might be similar others that talk about impermanence close to momentariness, suttas preferably.

Can I ask a question. When you're asking about "momentariness" are you asking in relation to "atomized" moments?

atomized - past participle, past tense of at·om·ize (Verb)Verb: Convert (a substance) into very fine particles or droplets.Reduce (something) to atoms or other small distinct units.

... and by doing so, designating that which is delineable, bounded, and inherently differentiated and separated from other atomized moments?

Metta,Retro.

"When we transcend one level of truth, the new level becomes what is true for us. The previous one is now false. What one experiences may not be what is experienced by the world in general, but that may well be truer. (Ven. Nanananda)

“I hope, Anuruddha, that you are all living in concord, with mutual appreciation, without disputing, blending like milk and water, viewing each other with kindly eyes.” (MN 31)

Can I ask a question. When you're asking about "momentariness" are you asking in relation to "atomized" moments?

atomized - past participle, past tense of at·om·ize (Verb)Verb: Convert (a substance) into very fine particles or droplets.Reduce (something) to atoms or other small distinct units.

... and by doing so, designating that which is delineable, bounded, and inherently differentiated and separated from other atomized moments?

Metta,Retro.

Hello retro,

I am open to all usual definition of "momentariness" as found in Theravada (including "atomized" moments as you stated above).

Personally, I like to think momentariness as the instant process of being "on" and "off" (rising and falling) of individual discrete units in no time (or maybe in "Planck time"). The discrete units are identical (as long as they have the same underlying causes) but are disconnected in the sense that the previous unit does not directly cause the next one; although they are connected indirectly because they have the same underlying causes. These underlying causes themselves are in the process of momentary existence as described above.I am not sure if my idea of momentariness is usual in Theravada, and I could be wrong, but I have reached this conclusion by pondering on the Buddha's words, and inferences from physics, and ideas from Vipassana tradition over years.

Last edited by SamKR on Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. ...

But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another.

SamKR wrote:Thanks everyone for your replies and for the links.Cooran's link to past discussion and the book (thesis) is very useful.

Thanks robertk for Guhatthaka-suttaniddeso which, as pointed out by tiltbillings in the past thread, is a commentary. But I think it is authoritative as it is a part of Nikaya. I hope there might be similar others that talk about impermanence close to momentariness, suttas preferably.

The idea that it is part of the Commentaries and not an actual sutta seems to have come from the translators innocent use of the word 'commentary' when describing Sariputta's exposition. If , in his preface, the modern translator had instead used the word "exposition' it would have been clearer.So just to stress again, IT IS A SUTTA and not part of the Atthakatha (commentaries).

SamKR wrote:Thanks everyone for your replies and for the links.Cooran's link to past discussion and the book (thesis) is very useful.

Thanks robertk for Guhatthaka-suttaniddeso which, as pointed out by tiltbillings in the past thread, is a commentary. But I think it is authoritative as it is a part of Nikaya. I hope there might be similar others that talk about impermanence close to momentariness, suttas preferably.

The idea that it is part of the Commentaries and not an actual sutta seems to have come from the translators innocent use of the word 'commentary' when describing Sariputta's exposition. If , in his preface, the modern translator had instead used the word "exposition' it would have been clearer.So just to stress again, IT IS A SUTTA and not part of the Atthakatha (commentaries).

Thank you for the clarification, Robert and thanks also for sharing the sutta.kind regards,

Ben

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.” - Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:in mountain clefts and chasms,loud gush the streamlets,but great rivers flow silently.- Sutta Nipata 3.725

“Bhikkhus, I do not even know of one other phenomena that is of the nature to quickly change as the mind, so much so, bhikkhus, that to give an example of this quickly changing mind is not easily done.” (AN.1. 41-50)

But what may be helpful to the discussion is that an understanding of Dependant Origination and the middle-way will lend to an understanding of momentariness through causal processes. The Kaccānagotta Sutta (SN. 12.15) comes to mind with its alalysis of simple right-view, where rather than attaching to the extremes of ‘everything exists’ (sabbaṃ atthī’ti) or ‘everything does not exist’ (sabbaṃ natthī’ti), one proceeds with an understanding of the ‘Dhamma of the middle’ (majjhena … dhammaṃ) viz. DO.

But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another.

Mike

To say that mind by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. is far far from talking about momentariness, as some take it to mean, that trillions of cittas rise and fall every second.

I do believe in a sort of momentariness. When we read every letter, then every split second there is different object of the mind - and thus the mind.

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."