Water Street Slim, David liked the burrito. I didn't get his reaction on camera, though. He had the sweet potato burrito.

As for the editing, Anonymous, I mostly just cut out stuff that was off-topic. The full version is probably less interesting than you imagine. Lots of "turn here" and discussion of George Martin's role in The Beatles. Things like that.

And Other Anonymous, I'm sad I did not have the camera running when we spoke about David's impressions of the book Shoes Outside The Door. He told me that his opinions on the book are available in various articles he's put on cuke.com.

He feels, like I do, that the author of Shoes didn't really "get" what Zen was about. I'd suggest you seek out his other writings about it.

Hee hee, good point from Mr. Chadwick re the sexual ethics of monkeys and 'what's natural'.

It's really amazing the remnants of guilt that endure around sex in western culture, the insidious underlying stuff. Theoretically, with the increase in a humanistic outlook due to the therapy era, sex is seen as a basic human need, but it seems that there are some lingering doubts about this in our culture (speaking from my own experience, that is; but then I do live in the wreckage of 'Catholic Ireland').

Yes Harry, It is insidious underlying stuff.. It is not very hard to imagine how all of our behavior possibly grew out of our sexual urges. Because these urges just don't go away if ignored. They are just adapted into other urges. Sometimes socially acceptable and beneficial, sometimes not so much.

"Every fact is related on one side to sensation, and, on the other, to morals. The game of thought is, on the appearance of one of these two sides, to find the other: given the upper, to find the under side."

Wow - lots of comments. Let's see - I didn't mean to say that Eido's sexual history and all was just "sexual intrigue." I was talking about the sexual scandals overall. No, Eido, as I implied at the beginning, was over the top. This has been well established. My point was that, however wrong some sexual behavior on the part of people in the Buddhist world may have been, it gets a lot more attention than human behavior that causes more suffering to more people. I'm not even saying don't pay attention to all that but let us also pay some attention to horrors caused by or that might be caused by militarism, nuclear weapons, pollution, torture, poverty, destruction of the environment by various means, racism, sexism, war on drugs (read people), modern slavery, destruction of the middle class, your suggestions here.

Here's the link to the comment I made about the relative attention paid to sexual vs other misdeeds ending with a link to Bonobo Chimps everyday life. That comment etc is right at the top of the page of What Was New under 6-30-11. Enjoy.

http://www.cuke.com/new/new-2011a.html

I hope this one doesn't say I'm Unknown like the prior post. I think I'm doing it right now. - David Chadwick

OK. Back to the word "intrigue" with which I was intrigued. Turns out there's a case that it's an appropriate word to use even for Eido's shinanigans (Secret or dishonest activity or maneuvering). Intrigue comes from the Latin meaning "to entangle." In English it can refer to secret or illicit sex and also to the use of underhanded machinations and deceitful behavior. But while we're once again sucked into a discussion of sexual misconduct, say for the last two hours, about two thousand children have died from preventable, treatable causes.

Do you love your rusty, dented old wheelbarrow? How Wabi-Sabi of you! A philosophy of seeing and homemaking, wabi-sabi has its roots in Japanese Zen Buddhism, but it's all about the imperfection of dried leaves, rather than the perfection of a fresh cherry blossom.

Zen monks are like Catholic pREISTS except they rarely go after chindren

Mysterion's like a rabbi except he doesn't even play a shofar.Spare us yr superficial generalizations--examine some evidence and yll note that ...abuse is equal opportunity--WASP, cat. , jew, muslim, etc. --bdh.hindu as well

Thanks for the interview. I'll link to it on our sangha blog. Crooked Cucumber important book for me and now I'm ordering Thank You & Okay. Chadwick seemed like what I expected. And that's nice. And I'll also buy an extendable monopod.

Goodness. So many important issues to address, so little time. I can see why I don't have a blog. Yes I get back to Fort Worth and when I go I go for ten days or so. Was just there in June for two weeks to see mom, 97 and still going strong [go to what's new 8-13 on cuke.com for tribute to mother]and visit with friends. Stayed at Austin ZC one night. I'm also a Zen Failure in America, last winter/spring was a Zen failure in India . Do sit daily from five minutes to two hours. Last 7 day sesshin was in the Black Forest two years ago at Dharma Sangha's Johanneshof - Baker Roshi was gone so all lectures in German. Loved it. For answer to Suzuki humility, Wabi Sabi, speed, multi-task, etc cruise through cuke.com's extensive Shunryu Suzuki Index [linked from top of home page on top line of all those links} and shunrysuzuki.com lectures. Short answer - humble-yes (catches on to interdependence), very Wabi Sabi (coughed a lot in elegant soft simple robes, worked with rocks, had broken finger),speed-took it easy, never in hurry, would laugh at idea of multi-tasking, trinkets-no interest unless it was a bonzai he might steal from you. Gotta think about what would SHOCK. How's this - when his younger daughter hanged herself in a mental institution he didn't go back for funeral or tell her little brother (who lived in San Francisco) for at least six months. No aggies in family. For LSD comments see DC Writings on cuke.com go to Short Writings Psychoactivism, Practice and Intoxication, and Suzuki on drugs and Alcohol. That's all for now except on sex - how about making it where new students are told upon arrival that their teacher may try to seduce them, that research has shown that practice doesn't eliminate this urge or guarantee conformity to cultural norms or ethics etc and that it's up to them to resist the teacher if they want to and that if they do resist they'll get a gold star and be applauded at a general meeting. If they don't resist they can tell us all how the sex was unless they don't think that's appropriate. If they ask isn't that breaking the precepts they can be told that the precepts are for them to follow and for others to break and good luck. That's really all. Thanks and good luck (luck to me being something we create).

OK. Here's something I wrote about worldly desires recently which expounds further on this sex stuff. As you'll see it takes off from a Suzuki comment. He mainly was pointing out not to make a worldly desire out of Buddhism but I expanded the discussion to other desires. It's linked from What's New for 9-03-11 and is in Dchad Misc which links off of dc writings.

I'm sorry, but the dimensions issue I'll only reveal to a consenting female associate of this blog, not too young, and then I'd have to get permission from my mate and she might say it's okay but then I bet there'd be a price to pay in terms of what now is a fairly trouble free relationship. I will say that I have had a prostitute in Mexico City in 1965 call another one into our room to take a look [I'm putting stuff on cuke these days about Mexico and SA memories but am not including that item] and that my first wife, Daya Goldschlag, a body worker in Spokane who did workshops with the late and wonderful Darlene Cohen said that she could tell how big a man's member was by how confident he was in conversation.

Oh I forgot to put cuke.com as where What's New and Dchad Misc are in telling where that piece on worldly desires was. Is there a way to edit these comments? Also could add a comma to the next piece. But we can't keep meeting like this. Actually I need to finish a piece on Mexico City and maybe I should put that in there.

In 1952 Shunryu Suzuki’s wife, Chie, was murdered by a mentally disturbed Zen priest, leaving Suzuki roshi to raise their children alone. After bringing the children up and overseeing their education, in 1959 the Soto-shu assigned him to a temple in San Francisco which catered to a Japanese-American congregation, Soko-ji.

OK. I'm not coming back today. There are important, serious things to do. But I'll comment on a few of the previous since my last comment. No Suzuki wasn't left to raise his kids alone. His mother-in-law raised them - and the temple had a lot of people coming and going, some very close, like family. The kids all felt ignored by him. Like his next wife Mitsu would say, "Good priest, bad husband." (which could be extended to bad family man)

Mt. Baldy is Joshu Sasaki Roshi's place, the Rinzai teacher who came to LA from Myoshinji in the mid sixties and who's 104 now and still teaching. I have no opinion on that center. If you go there will be a Buddha there.

Gay Eyes at Brad? Oooh, yuck. I have been around gay men a lot of my life - my mother was into the arts. Pedophiles never bothered me. One taught me to masturbate and he was a cool DJ who let me hang out at the radio station in the mid fifties so I got to hear all the emerging rhythm and blues and Elvis before it was aired. But we didn't touch each other because I didn't want to (10-11). That would be yucky. I remember another businessman who came by to tell me what a great guy my recently deceased father was and then taking me (12) for a ride and showing me photos of naked women and saying to me that they really turn him on and if someone stuck a penis in his mouth right then he'd suck on it and I said that was interesting and can I go home now. Later when there was a big scandal about him having a homo sex and drug den for his diving champion students I just thought well, they're all post puberty and if they enjoyed it what's the problem? I wrote a letter to the most prominent Presby minister in town whom I used to play bridge with and thanked him for all the great conversations, steaks, and booze when I was a teenager and that I was sorry he was dying of AIDS. It was really my friend and bridge partner whom he was after but he couldn't get anywhere there. And then there was male nurse Uncle Carl, not really an uncle, but the first outwardly, proselytizing gay man I knew - and that was 63-65 when I was in town visiting. He turned us, young men and women, on to Carl Rogers, Milton Ericson, Harry Stack Sullivan. In his high pitched Texas drawl he'd say to me, "Oh please be my love. I can give you everything a woman can except for babies!" So many important early influences were gay men and gay men who were interested in young boys. I think they have a lot to offer and are misunderstood. People get so freaked out by all this and that seems to me a greater source of trauma than the drooling pedophiles. They continued to be a resource. I used to like to get rides from eager same sexers when hitching cause I'd get free meals and extra miles, even a place to stay. And they never were pushy. Just like me with women. I'd buy them meals and drive them places and salivate just hope they'd want to cuddle etc, if only out of pity. I roomed with Issan Tommy Dorsey for a couple of years at Tassajara and would stay with him when I went to the city and sometimes we'd kiss in front of guest students to freak them out. My ex Daya had an affair with the guy who gave him AIDS (before AIDS) and many people were concerned and I said she should be able to have a nice young toy boy if she wants.

And all Buddhists believe in reincarnation? I do but there are plenty who don't and it doesn't matter. I believe in do-it-yourself religion. I mainly believe that dropping belief is the key. The thing is to wake up to whatever is. I guess.

"...On sex - how about making it where new students are told upon arrival that their teacher may try to seduce them, that research has shown that practice doesn't eliminate this urge or guarantee conformity to cultural norms or ethics etc and that it's up to them to resist the teacher if they want to and that if they do resist they'll get a gold star and be applauded at a general meeting. If they don't resist they can tell us all how the sex was unless they don't think that's appropriate. If they ask isn't that breaking the precepts they can be told that the precepts are for them to follow and for others to break and good luck."

I too grew up amongst benders, but they did me, nor anyone I knew, no harm.

Aged about 12, I failed to be impressed by the erect adolescent penis presented to me in the toilets of Hebrew Classes by the resident willy-waiver. I recall thinking "He don't look Jewish!" (the boy, not the dick). I smiled politely and went my way.

When I joined the London Schools Symphony Orchestra at the age of 16, I encountered real grown up nonces -

The Conductor. A slim, 40-year old pipe smoking romantic with a taste for pretty mid-teen boys. He would fall in love and be tragically spurned. Usually.

The Woodwind Tutor. A large, highly educated bloke in his 50s who nevertheless had some success with younger boys. He had a mirrored bedroom ceiling, I was told by one or two lads who seemed to thoroughly enjoy the notoriety and perks of being one of 'Cave's bum-boys';

The Caretaker. An emaciated 50-something, always accompanied by a 11 or 12 year old male 'helper' whom he'd occasionally caress affectionately...the BEAST!

All these authority (father?) figures were well-known and generally tolerated by a large group of boys, girls, parents (to my knowledge, one or two mums expressed concern) and educators. Perhaps such predilections were/are expected among musicians/artists. The behaviour wasn't approved, just tolerated - as long, I guess, as it didn't involve non-consensual abuse.

"But it's ALL abuse! It's ALL non-consensual! How can a 12 year-old consent to being 'affectionately caressed'?" Well it didn't seem that way at the time. It all seemed pretty harmless - both to the participants and non-participants.

DC wrote:

People get so freaked out by all this and that seems to me a greater source of trauma than the drooling pedophiles.

I am no psychologist, but that's how it seems to me, too.

I, BTW, was never approached by the musical pervs. Has the rejection scarred me for life? Probably.

Mr. Chadwick, you can not deny thatsome human beings are damaged by these intrusions, and not beingEnlightened ( love saying that word), do not experience the seminalnor the semenal flow being betweenappendages of the One Self.

I think homosexuality/bisexuality are part of the darwinian evolutionary process. As revolutionary as it may seem the human as we know it now will become beyond queer. There is a reason that it feels wonderful to have ones prostate tickled and reasons that women that darn strap on to their groins are all just a trickle of whats to come...um er...cum? Say a word Chadwick?

Your casual if not nihilistic attitude regarding pedophilia embodies the problems of American "buddhism". Buddhist Im not but I doubt that's a traditional view,of any sect: that's a 60s, occultist view--a common misconception of the college stoner who thinks zen/eastern religions simply means hedonism , or a quasi-Freudian counseling. That's not it. Maybe try reading a bit of..Schopenhauer on east. religions. It's not a "tune into your bliss" or merely hedonistic thing, whatsoever. A rapist is headed back into the animalic realm or..pretas (or hell, in chr. terms). Charles Manson or Crowley or Mao are not enlightened .

Paedos of course don't mind being paedos. The children do, as do their parents (Or maybe you'd like to turn yr own kids over to the local sex offenders?) . Now, opposing molesters doesn't mean being a prude. Prop 8. should have been opposed. And some people argue for a lower age of consent,16 or 14--I don't really agree. But they make an argument of sorts and aren't saying rape minors (hopefully).

So like ,you're wrong-dead wrong--as are any who agree with you. Then Bay Area people are generally wrong about everything.

Welcome the present moment as if you had invited it. It is all we ever have so we might as well work with it rather than struggling against it. We might as well make it our friend and teacher rather than our enemy.

I was talking with Taigen Dan Leighton today about how so many people, especially Americans, and also American Zen people, put so much emphasis on sexual behavior, often emphasizing it above all else in the realm of ethics, not being so interested in destruction of the environment and mass murder by governments. Someone sent me an article on Ethics and Zen recently and it focused on the sexual misconduct of one person. I wrote back that, okay, that was not cool, but there's been more written about that than the Rape of Nanking. On the national front, a congressman has to quit because he tweeted his genitals while others continue who care nothing that millions loose their homes and jobs and get sick and die from a system that serves wealth over people, millions get thrown in cages for harmless acts, etc. Then I happened on this provocative video which I think puts the issue in a more clear perspective and sheds some light on natural love.

While you are correct the Weiner scandal was blown out of proportion, that's hardly the same as molestation is it Mysti. Bundy killed only 30 females or so. Whats that compared to Mao,etc.But still a serious crime.

Let's see. Took notes. Will break up into shorter comments.Caitriona Reed? - Never heard of her. She looks interesting. Will listen later.funny - so many of the posts have made me laugh. If you wrote something funny and I didn't comment rest assured it was because I was laughing and it was already way up there.drugs - I do no drugs or alcohol except for tea since 1994. Reached my limit. Exceeded it. No terrible memories but am much more clear and happy. But I think maybe all drugs should be placed in mountains for people to consume freely. That way the genes of those who can't handle them will disappear - like what has happened somewhat with alcohol in the West where now only about 5% can't handle it - says Andy Weil. Or maybe we should hide drugs and then only those who find them can take them - a continual treasure hunt. War on drugs it seems causes more suffering than drugs. I favor harm reduction approach. Also, everyone I know who got busted changed for the better but we're from the ruling class. It's harder on the poor and minorities.What's a Daya? - My first ex wife.

Alfred Korzybski - interesting. I've long applied some of his principles as have others I know. Best example is and I've suggested this to my sons when younger, don't say they're a jerk, say they acted in a jerk manner. Etc. And "I feel mad" seems better than "I am mad." (Notice I said "seems better" and not "is better."). I like his approach and think about it more these days.waive - I never knew. Thanks. Love stuff like that.Rajneesh - just been around his students and devotees. Read a bunch to paralyzed friend, stood at gate to Pune place last February with son Clay but it wasn't in our budget to go in. He's widely accepted in India as one of the great modern teachers - but they don't like to criticize gurus. I heard, "I don't judge" a number of times from people whom I asked what they thought of him. I tend to see him as a brilliant con man but I know and have met a lot of his close sannyasin whom I admire and who do not put him down. He didn't treat his neighbors well in Oregon and there were many bad social developments with his communities but he sure turned many on to seeking higher truth etc.Genpo Roshi - really? Hi.

anonymous - Is this one person?"can not deny that some human beings are damaged" - Right. Lots of things damage people. Just told my experience. But I know a woman who has permanent hip problem from being raped by her father when she was a baby, a friend whose uncle made her give him blow jobs when she was five, etc. Bad. Very bad. He went to jail and raped her when he got out. I wouldn't put him in a cement cell - to me that's torture. Maybe give him a garden to take care of that he can't get out of. I've known many people who had awful things done to them and don't condone any of it. But I wouldn't put adults in cages who try to seduce teenagers. I'm generally against locking people up unless they're dangerous. It seems to be a matter of balance. A guy here got forty years for putting his hand on a neighbor girl's thigh. A neighbor objected to lesbian couple because he was against sado-masochistic orgies. So much gets lumped together, the harmful and the harmless are not distinguished.

Gay Play - funny. I'd be in a gay play if the other males were played by females in drag, sort of the opposite of old English and Japanese theater.homo/bi evolutionary - Maybe. I don't know. In some cultures like India and China where there are so many more females than males I'm sure that encourages more gaydom and might lead to more open minds on this there. I never have understood why anyone cared.1000 Names of Vishnu - pedophilia - I agree with you. I'm not advocating anything, just saying that what I've been around wasn't much of a problem for me. I was a virgin till I was twenty and fairly shy with women till 22 when that all changed for sure. I advised my sons to put sex off as long as they could to keep life simple, but when Clay at 17 went from never having had a date to sleeping with his girlfriend every night we welcomed her in. I think there are more people in prison for sex crimes who are innocent than anything else. And so many of the guilty didn't do anything they should be locked up for in my opinion. Female teacher and teen student fall in love merits prison for her? Case by case. I think there's a lot of hysteria. I think if we broadened what we accepted and toned down the persecution that there would be less sex crime. I also think there should be easy access to sex of some sort for horny people, men mainly. Some get so frustrated. I love Thailand. Never saw any underage prostitutes though I've heard a lot about it in America. Not condoning that. There seems to be a lot of sex slavery in the world. That's bad and should be eliminated but I'd tend to think broadening legal sex possibilities would help. I know people who work in that field and would like to hear what they have to say. Harm reduction is the approach I'd tend to follow - reduce the harm from sex related behavior and from sex related laws and customs. I don't worry about it much cause I stick with my mate though I fantasize adulterously and love some of the Internet porn (though don't let it get to be a habit, practice some restraint) - tend toward what they call lesbian or women alone. I don't want to see those yucky men. Anyway, I'm no authority. May all beings be free.Seagal - really? Gassho.Gassho to all.

I don't like to get cops involved in anything, or Nancy Grace hysteria . But...let just say--if you knew what I knew regarding SoCal sex offenders (and Net as well)--think grown men abducting children under 12, etc-- you'd often get the cops/psych. people involved. Or even call Nancy. Not real hip--but thats the way it izz.

Yes I did comment on Antelope - "He didn't treat his neighbors well in Oregon and there were many bad social developments with his communities but he sure turned many on to seeking higher truth etc." Anyway, it doesn't matter. You're the only Buddha. All the rest are pretenders. They don't really even exist.

And 100 names of V - I could see chopping such a person up with an axe if I was involved with such a kidnapping situation. So that should be prevented like auto accidents and cancer. But I'm glad I escaped persecution for statutory rape I committed in the early seventies (with knowledge of the parents and community in hippie druggie times). One former mate I'll not name advocated chopping the genitals off men who'd had sex with their daughters but thought a movie she saw about a son and mother love affair was the most beautiful thing in the world. Anyway, people are nuts. This is psycho planet. Onward to sanity!

I read in David Chadwick's "Psychoactivism" article on Cuke.com that his father had been a reader in the Church of Christ, Scientist. I recently read Mary Baker Eddy's "Science and Health" and was very surprised to discover the similarities between her metaphysics and Advaita Vedanta. I have read writings of Vivekananda and Yogananda that attempted to force the square peg of Christianity into the round hole of Vedanta but did not successfully reconcile the massive differences between them. Mrs. Eddy succeeded where they failed only by rejecting several tenets of Christian dogma. I would rank Mrs. Eddy's writings in the same league as Shankaracharya's. I think it's a tragedy that most Christians have either never heard of Mrs. Eddy, have not read "Science and Health", or have rejected her metaphysics.

We won’t stop violence by dressing up in paisley frocks and sticking daisies in the barrels of AK-47s. Such action is still motivated by ego. It is based on the idea that I, Mr. Buddhist Pacifist, am better than you, you nasty Republican warmonger. The very same force that makes violence an unavoidable part of human life is the one that tries, through a different kind of violence, to overcome violence.

David, you're being baited with a quote from me (the thing about paisley frocks). Just so you know.

This is a weird and interesting thread now that David has joined in. He says addresses some topics that I generally avoid. I like David because he'll just say anything at all. That's how people ought to be, I think.

The reason I think we should be this way is because if we can get everything out in the open it becomes very clear exactly what we are. And that none of us are the ideal creatures we aspire to be or wish others would see us as.

But it can be dangerous. Sometimes people don't want to hear stuff and they will hurt you if you say things they don't want to hear. Thankfully, this is becoming less of a problem as time passes.

Before I go outside to do dirty work and feed sheep, yes Brad, I can see that having a blog would be dangerous. I can see what would be in store. At first people would be friendly and polite, then they'd start seeing the cracks in ones armor, then the ridiculing and berating would begin. I'd vainly try to defend myself and end up like a battered husband, head bowed, saying yes dear I'm sorry. Please forgive. Or maybe turn into a pathetic sponge for abuse saying whip me whip me. I deserve it.

That paragraph reminded me of Alan Watts who said Gandhi was violent - I loved Alan. He was brilliant. There's obvious truth in it. There are so many ways people express themselves - some are romantic and naive. I used to go write "hate" next to the "love" graffiti in the sixties. I don't know what will make people less violent. The Tao, maybe Lao Tsu, maybe Chuang Tsu (sp?) said to talk of peace is to encourage war, better to hide the weapons. It seems too late for that. Suzuki Roshi said there will always be war but I can't accept that. Maybe on the plains that have war there will always be war but there are I imagine plains with no war and so I visualize us being lifted there by prayers, intention, karma, futuristic elevators. Check out my song (song?) Screaming Mad on Music for a Comic Book Video

http://www.defusermusic.com/projects/mfcbv/mfcbv.htm

I now see that the link will stay if I just don't put the arrows around it - I think.

I wrote tons of songs about war and peace and still there's war. Gotta think of something new. I'm just glad that all phenomena is a non substantial reflection of a deeper, perfect, unborn realm. Or else we'd be fucked.

'Getting everything out in the open' is only really 'good for purpose', only really goes the way Brad suggests, if, in doing so, people are expressing some sort of genuine aspiration towards the truth.

More often people, me included, just want to hear the comfortable drone of our tired old voices and tread the well beaten and comfortable pathways that do not present the scary challenge of hitherto unfused synapse gaps.

In fact, like everything else, slack-jawing may just be another means of rehearsing and reinforcing our own personal pathologies if we don't make something of it.

Even when people who want to express a truth beyond their own comfortable sty sit down to write, I mean really go for it, they likely have to write a load of garbage before they find something approaching their true voice. Don't be discouraged by this. It's part of the process. But it's also something to work through.

One idea is that we can work on expressing a truer voice by habitually writing three pages of non-censored, non-considered blather every morning. I do it ('only three pages!' I hear you say in my case) and it is quite interesting (as a process that is, the writing is generally Howlin' Mad Murdock shit).

I'm the anonymous who put the quote by Brad up there. I've been thinking about it since I posted it.

Why did I do it?

I'm your basic average, decent guy. I seriously was foreseeing Chadwick saying something that possibly would be at odds at something that Brad has said and then I could sit back and.... whatever the fuck it is I could do. I really don't know what. Create mayhem? Post more meaningless, childish shit? Laugh to myself like a dork?

BTW, let's not forget we're on the Internet here... we're not really 'talking'. This is a point that Brad makes well about Buddhist teaching on the net (about it being inferior to seeing, hearing, smelling etc the other party in 'meatspace'), but he seems a bit blind to the point when it comes to his strident 'internet voice' as opposed to how he is and presents himself in real life. The same is true for big brave internet warriors like me and, I suspect, the anonytrolls who keeps us on our little toesies.

People seem more brave, and more reckless, when writing on the internet; it's likely due to us not being under the usual social/interpersonal inhibitors and perceived threats etc. That can be useful, and can be used I reckon, in Buddhist teaching and other applications, if it's observed and done well I suppose... now that's nearly tomorrows three pages of bullshit done.

Well taken, Harry. I also would add that I like to see reactions to off-the-wall or subservise crap. I guess that means I'm a troll. Whatever it is, there's something about subverting this whole online "talk" board.

An old friend of mine used to say of another friend of ours who was easy to wind up: "Spit on him and he will fizz".

I think 'spitting on people to see them fizz' is just a type of entertainment (very often not 'wholesome' entertainment, like The Walton's, for example), but maybe it also addresses our need to connect with others in some strange and convoluted way? Does it offer some form of empowerment?

I probably should think on it a bit. It seems at first blush to be more of a practical joke-type thing, which is what I've always gotten a kick out of in real life. You know, stir something up and then sit back quietly while it all unfolds.

As an example, I'll hang something totally random in a co-worker's office and then be behind my desk in my office as she reacts and puzzles out what the hell is going on. I never speak up or show any outwards signs of involvement, and it's never traced to me. (Did this very thing two days ago, in fact.)

But I don't know what in the hell is so funny about a practical joke anyway, should that have any relevance to the conversation here.

annoy mouse sed:"I think it's a tragedy that most Christians have either never heard of Mrs. Eddy, have not read "Science and Health", or have rejected her metaphysics."

At some level, metaphysics is reduced to "believe what is not apparent."

Conspiracies are like that.http://www.lovethetruth.com/false_religion/occult/all_big_religions.htm

I remember attending a conference in which a Christian Missionary gave a paper attacking cargo cults. Each and every argument he had used to 'dis' Jon Brum would equally apply to Jesus Christ - for exactly the same reasons. a.k.a. Jon Frum

Charles Taze Russell (founder of the Jehovah's Witnesses), Ellen G. White (founder of 7th Day Adventism), Mary Baker Eddy (the founder of Christian Science), and Helena Petrovna Blavatsky founder of Theosophy) were all metaphysicists out searching for their first clue. At that time Tarot Decks and Ouija Boards were in vogue. (That which is hidden is called 'occult.' An exampple is the lunar occultation of venus)

Wow. Who got that Wirt Norris name? Good for you. He was the realtor who came to see me a year or so after my father died and showed me pictures of naked women. I liked Wirt. He told me a lot about my father I didn't know. And he got away with turning on all those divers to pot (and maybe other drugs like coke - I don't know) and gay sex until not long before he died. But some of the boys got made at him when they were older.

No I haven't slept with Nina, Mitsi to me - I can't spell - wonder how Mitsy Mitsie is spelled. She and I are somewhat close though. We worked together at Greens and I remember taking her to a recording I did of a song I wrote called The Day I Jump off the Golden Gate Bridge. She had a pony tail and horn rimmed glasses and was funny. We've been in touch now and then through the years. I like her. I couldn't visit her in her LA home a couple of times because I had my son who was younger than 18 with me.

And something up above I wanted to comment on. I wouldn't characterize the SFZC as having had a corrupt power structure. That is somewhat true of times for any institution and I think the SFZC has done pretty well.