May will now have to look to the opposition for votes, meaning the UK will not really leave the EU.

They will become UKlingons.

White_Unifier

-1

#3

Re: Split over Bexit....Chaos in UK.

Jul 9th, 2018

Quote: Originally Posted by justlooking

More important is David Davis resigning as Brexit Secretary.

May will now have to look to the opposition for votes, meaning the UK will not really leave the EU.

They will become UKlingons.

Of course chaos reigns. The referendum question itself was not even clear so it was doomed to chaos from the start.

Hoid

+1

#4

Re: Split over Bexit....Chaos in UK.

Jul 9th, 2018

Quickly becoming a 3 Stooges short.

Curious Cdn

Conservative

#5

Re: Split over Bexit....Chaos in UK.

Jul 9th, 2018

Left side of the IQ bell curve versus the right side .

White_Unifier

-2

#6

Re: Split over Bexit....Chaos in UK.

Jul 9th, 2018

Any intelligent Brexiteer would have voted remain even if for no other reason that the referendum question was poorly worded. He would just have hoped for a more clearly-worded referendum later but certainly would not have voted leave without any indication of what that would mean.

Hi Walter.

Last edited by White_Unifier; Jul 9th, 2018 at 10:59 AM..

Hoid

+1

#7

Re: Split over Bexit....Chaos in UK.

Jul 9th, 2018

what a ridiculous waste of time and money

You would think there would be something worthwhile these people could be doing.

Walter

#8

Re: Split over Bexit....Chaos in UK.

Jul 9th, 2018

The UK will leave the EU.

White_Unifier

-1

#9

Re: Split over Bexit....Chaos in UK.

Jul 9th, 2018

Quote: Originally Posted by Walter

The UK will leave the EU.

Maybe, but probably only resulting from a more clearly-written future referendum.

Walter

+2

#10

Re: Split over Bexit....Chaos in UK.

Jul 9th, 2018

Quote: Originally Posted by White_Unifier

Maybe, but probably only resulting from a more clearly-written future referendum.

They’ve already voted on a clearly understood referendum.

Hoid

#11

Re: Split over Bexit....Chaos in UK.

Jul 9th, 2018

How can you conduct national economic policy by referendum?

How can the Brexit be a referendum but the manner of and the replacement for Brexit not be a referendum?

It was an ill-considered bit of populism that will haunt these poor shop keepers forever.

White_Unifier

#12

Re: Split over Bexit....Chaos in UK.

Jul 9th, 2018

Quote: Originally Posted by Walter

They’ve already voted on a clearly understood referendum.

Stay or leave with no clear indication of which of the myriad alternatives. Did the leave option on the ballot indicate whether 'leave' meant the Norwegian, Swiss, Turkish, or Canadian model or whether it meant returning to already-established WTO rules or adopt unilateral free trade or something else? The 'leave' option was as clear as mud.

Given the confusion, it would not surprise me if the UK government decides to interpret the leave option as narrowly as possible to adopt the Norwegian model for now but then calls a new more clearly-worded referendum later to decide between the Norwegian model or unilateral free trade or some other alternative.

Curious Cdn

Conservative

#13

Re: Split over Bexit....Chaos in UK.

Jul 9th, 2018

Quote: Originally Posted by Walter

The UK will leave the EU.

California will leave the USA.

coldstream

+2

#14

Re: Split over Bexit....Chaos in UK.

Jul 9th, 2018

I actually find it encouraging that there are still some real, principled nationalists is Britain who believe in real, hard borders and are not interested in some kind of apparent Brexit which leaves the UK as member in all but title of the EU.

Britain might be in a more flexible position than it gives itself credit for. Dave Davis and Boris Johnson are assuming the May compromise essentially will be a platform for the EU to gradually re-entangle the UK inextricably into the EU 'Customs Union', borderless community and Court of Justice with its principles of free movement of people, goods, services & relativistic legal dictates.

But it should have escaped no ones notice that the EU is not a monolith. Its is fracturing internally from its margins inwards under intense national, religious and moral tensions. The UK might be left as a sovereign nation again in the ruins of a disintegration of the EU regardless of the Brexit agreement.

Last edited by coldstream; Jul 9th, 2018 at 01:18 PM..

White_Unifier

#15

Re: Split over Bexit....Chaos in UK.

Jul 9th, 2018

North Korea presents a perfect example of how borders affect a state's economy.

Curious Cdn

Conservative

#16

Re: Split over Bexit....Chaos in UK.

Jul 9th, 2018

Quote: Originally Posted by White_Unifier

North Korea presents a perfect example of how borders affect a state's economy.

Yeah, one side is rich, the other side is poor. There are lots of Brits who believe that Europe will suddenly become poor when they leave.

White_Unifier

-1

#17

Re: Split over Bexit....Chaos in UK.

Jul 9th, 2018

Quote: Originally Posted by Curious Cdn

Yeah, one side is rich, the other side is poor. There are lots of Brits who believe that Europe will suddenly become poor when they leave.

And between the two Koreas, which has the more open borders?

From what I've read, pretty much every British economist agrees that Brexit will cause short-to-medium-term pain no matter what (unles they adopt the Norwegian model which would be a light version of Brexit) and that the only way for the UK to counter the long-term damage of a hard Brexit would be through unilateral free trade. The only real difference between the economists is whether staying in the EU or unilateral free trade would benefit the UK more in the long term, so there's a bit of a draw between those two options. No serious UK economist as far as I know is proposing anything other than either staying in the EU or adopting unilateral free trade.

Even if we assume that the long-term benefits of unilateral free trade outweigh those of remaining in the EU (and the jury is still out on that one), we still have to question whether those gains would outweigh the short-to-medium-term pain of leaving enough to make it worthwhile.

Probably the preferred option for the UK would be to remain in the EU and to just keep pushing for the EU as a whole to adopt unilateral free trade or at least allow individual member-states to do so from within the EU.

OpposingDigit

-1

#18

Re: Split over Bexit....Chaos in UK.

Jul 9th, 2018

The only thing keeping Britain afloat is the financial sector in downtown London. The rest of the country is Kaput. What does Britain manufacture other than military equipment? There is no oil left in the North Sea. How can the manufacturing sector succeed if all the energy required is imported? The only reason Thatcher looked good was because the North Sea oil came on stream. Japan has the same problem as Britain when it comes to energy. Plus; Fukushima is still steaming away since 2011 with no end in sight which is contaminating the complete island.

If Britain leaves the EU, the financial sector will collapse.

Last edited by OpposingDigit; Jul 9th, 2018 at 02:30 PM..

Serryah

Free Thinker

+1

#19

Re: Split over Bexit....Chaos in UK.

Jul 9th, 2018

Cue Blackie coming in with reports of BS in 3... 2... 1...

Walter

#20

Re: Split over Bexit....Chaos in UK.

Jul 9th, 2018

Quote: Originally Posted by Curious Cdn

California will leave the USA.

When is the vote?

White_Unifier

-1

#21

Re: Split over Bexit....Chaos in UK.

Jul 9th, 2018

The UK could come out of Brexit reasonably well with a proper plan, but unfortunately its only plan was to leave with no idea what to replace it with.

Hi Walter.

I predict that the present government will either sign something similar to the Norwegian model or cancel Brexit and call a new clearer referendum. even if it adopts the Norwegian model, this would probably lead to a second referendum anyway. either way though, the leave option will be more clearly worded to end all ambiguity on the matter.

Last edited by White_Unifier; Jul 9th, 2018 at 03:03 PM..

Hoid

#22

Re: Split over Bexit....Chaos in UK.

Jul 9th, 2018

Quote: Originally Posted by Walter

When is the vote?

very shortly.

a I lean towards the yes.

Curious Cdn

Conservative

#23

Re: Split over Bexit....Chaos in UK.

Jul 9th, 2018

Boris quit and has run away to join the circus.

White_Unifier

#24

Re: Split over Bexit....Chaos in UK.

Jul 9th, 2018

Quote: Originally Posted by Curious Cdn

Boris quit and has run away to join the circus.

I assume he has some basic level of education. From what I've gathered, he's expressed the desire for the UK to have the power to negotiate its own trade deals. That essentially means the Canadian model. So why does he not just say so but be honest about the fact that that will deny the UK tariff-free access to the UK market and will still impose a need on the UK to negotiate trade deals with other countries too which will take much time.

While I'd be open to unilateral free trade as a way to accelerate trade deals (which would be essential to compensate for the loss of tariff-free access the EU market), the Canadian model that he seems to be proposing would be disastrous for the UK.

To put it simply, if the UK wants to truly break away from the EU while minimizing the long-term damage (the short-to-term is inevitable), then the only option I can see is unilateral free trade since the UK would need to compensate in a major way to compensate for the loss of tariff-free access to the EU market. Sorry, UK, but you can't have your cake and eat it too.

Ocean Breeze

Free Thinker

#25

Re: Split over Bexit....Chaos in UK.

Jul 9th, 2018

Quote: Originally Posted by Curious Cdn

Boris quit and has run away to join the circus.

Fulfilling his FIRST career choice. Politics was just a side gig. and preparation for the real circus. ...

Last edited by Ocean Breeze; Jul 9th, 2018 at 05:35 PM..

White_Unifier

+1

#26

Re: Split over Bexit....Chaos in UK.

Jul 9th, 2018

Quote: Originally Posted by Ocean Breeze

Fulfilling his FIRST career choice. Politics was just a side gig. and preparation for the real circus. ...

Now I get it. He was trying to stop other EU clowns from competing with him?

Curious Cdn

Conservative

#27

Re: Split over Bexit....Chaos in UK.

Jul 9th, 2018

Quote: Originally Posted by White_Unifier

I assume he has some basic level of education. From what I've gathered, he's expressed the desire for the UK to have the power to negotiate its own trade deals. That essentially means the Canadian model. So why does he not just say so but be honest about the fact that that will deny the UK tariff-free access to the UK market and will still impose a need on the UK to negotiate trade deals with other countries too which will take much time.

While I'd be open to unilateral free trade as a way to accelerate trade deals (which would be essential to compensate for the loss of tariff-free access the EU market), the Canadian model that he seems to be proposing would be disastrous for the UK.

To put it simply, if the UK wants to truly break away from the EU while minimizing the long-term damage (the short-to-term is inevitable), then the only option I can see is unilateral free trade since the UK would need to compensate in a major way to compensate for the loss of tariff-free access to the EU market. Sorry, UK, but you can't have your cake and eat it too.

One thing that hurts the UK (and the USA) in their trade relations are their relatively muscular currencies. High valued Sterling and Greenbacks favour purchasing but not selling. If you are big and self-sufficient like the United States is, it probably doesn't matter if you sell much overseas but the British are not in that situation. Their goods and services are too expensive to sell overseas when the sweetheart deals with the EU come to an end.

Trump is going there for "trade negotiations" with the Brits but they are in for a bit of a shock. The US is selling, not buying. The Brits need to sell, not buy but they compete against the US in their output. Trump has zero interest in reciprocity. The Brits will find no help, there.

Ocean Breeze

Free Thinker

#28

Re: Split over Bexit....Chaos in UK.

Jul 9th, 2018

Quote: Originally Posted by Curious Cdn

One thing that hurts the UK (and the USA) in their trade relations are their relatively muscular currencies. High valued Sterling and Greenbacks favour purchasing but not selling. If you are big and self-sufficient like the United States is, it probably doesn't matter if you sell much overseas but the British are not in that situation. Their goods and services are too expensive to sell overseas when the sweetheart deals with the EU come to an end.

Trump is going there for "trade negotiations" with the Brits but they are in for a bit of a shock. The US is selling, not buying. The Brits need to sell, not buy but they compete against the US in their output. Trump has zero interest in reciprocity. The Brits will find no help, there.

talk about timing too. Having to deal with Trump while they are in a bit of a crisis. He will be meeting the queen too. (bet she just can't wait