In a future life, once OWOL has been corrected from her belief of a narrow-minded God of Xians alone, we can expect to see her reincarnation log in to a even more futersitic B'net as AWTL ("All ways to the Lord"), instead of OWOL. Since I trust God, I know it can very well happen that she will be more tuned to the truth.

I will conclude my posts to you Jerry, by rebutting your initial posts which states" EC's think humnanity is spiritually dirty. And tell you that while, you think that evangelicals think humanity is spiritually dirty, that is an incorrect interpretation of what evangelicals think and believe. Evangelicals believe that the Bible is the only source by which God speaks to humanity and that it alone is inspired by God and inerrent. With that being said: the God of the Bible values human beings. People matter to God. Even though by our own nature, we rebell against God and his will, he still loves us. He desires to have a relationship with us but because of our sinful state the relationship is broken. Because of our sinful state we are undeserving of hell. But because of the (agape) love of God and the Sacrificial death of his Son, hell isn't the only option. For those who choose it, heaven awaits. We have to have someone mediate between us and God. Before Jesus, the preists would mediate. But now Since the eternal sacrifice of Jesus Christ has passed, he becomes our 1 and only mediator. Trusting in His work on the cross, instead of your own abilities is what restores the relationship between you and God, and that faith is how God deems us righteous. That is because when we trust in Christ the Righteousness of Christ is imputed to us. Because God is Holy (pure goodness) he cannot tolerate any form of sin and Christ becomes the sin barrier between us and God to those willing to Trust in him. There is no blind check list, no living multiple lives and dying multiple times because you failed to do whatever it is that you were supposed to do. There is no karma (God waiting to zap you because you failed to learn lessons from the past, that you don't even know what they are, ect.. (that would be hell IMO. Forced to live and die with no explanations as to what, when, where or how--that's not fair) But God created a way that is not based on personal merit, but rather on Faith in his Son Jesus Christ that is fair and equitible for everyone. He did that not because he had to, but because he wanted to. And he chose to do it because humans matter to God. That is it in a nutshell. If we were spiritually dirty as you so claim then God would keep quite, like he does in the eastern religions.--possibly even have an endless cycle of births and deaths where god decides to zap you with another life and death with no explanations as to why, where, how

In 20 AD for example, except for a handful of humans, your EC god provided no inkling of a explanation to 99.999999........9999999 % of humans who happend to be non-EC that he would fry them for eternity just for being non-Xians.

In 20 AD for example, except for a handful of humans, your EC god provided no inkling of a explanation to 99.999999........9999999 % of humans who happend to be non-EC that he would fry them for eternity just for being non-Xians.

Arjun[/QUOTE]

Arjun,

What are you talking about? the Christian faith did not even exist in 20AD. Christ was not even crucified until about 27 AD at the age of 33.

My opinion of fairness is to come up with a plan that does not depend on personal merit Arjun.
Faith in Christ does exactly that. and it is a lot better than the plan that you embrace: living and dying multiple times because you failed to fulfill a check list that you don't even know what that is, and heaven or onness with God cannot even be achieved until that list is completed and god is satisfied--talk about cruel and unusual.--especially if you are the poor sap that ended up being born in Africa, drink tainted water, and have flies crawling all over your nasty self. And your placement in life is determined by your actions in your previous life. And you are blind to the reasons why you are in that position anyway. Tell me arjun--Why is Bill Gates where he is, and why are you where you are? If past lives and reincarnation is true? What answers can you give us to help solve humanities problems? Your selected type of worship arjun, offers no hope for us humans, offers no direction, offers no real purpose in life. I would rather spend all eternity in hell because then I would at least know where I stand with God. You don't even know what your god thinks of you, if you are valuable to him, you know nothing about what your god thinks or what he feels where you are concerned--let alone the rest of humanity. But if that is the god you choose to worship then more power to you, I guess...especially if you realize that the Christian view of redemption means that rejection of God's one and only Son means eternal damnation for your soul. At least with the Christian faith we know where we stand with God, we know that there is a hell (a place of eternal torment) and we know how to avoid it.: IOW what God requires of us. (faith in Christ.).. Which is more than I can say for your religion.

>> OWOL: What are you talking about? the Christian faith did not even exist in 20AD. Christ was not even crucified until about 27 AD at the age of 33. .<<

Well make it 40AD if you will. The point remains exactly the same. Your EC god is the supreme master of the "no explanation for frying humans in eternal hell" department.

>>OWOL: it is a lot better than the plan that you embrace: living and dying multiple times because you failed to fulfill a check list that you don't even know what that is,<<

Umm..considering the fact that compassion, love, peace etc are Universal human values found independent of religious beliefs, as per the perspective of Karma one gets to God from all faiths. Your EC god on the other hand is bent upon hoisting a bouncer named JC on his doors who kicks innocent people to hell just for honestly selecting a faith the EC god has a infiriority complex about.

>> and heaven or onness with God cannot even be achieved until that list is completed and god is satisfied--talk about cruel and unusual.--especially if you are the poor sap that ended up being born in Africa, drink tainted water, and have flies crawling all over your nasty self. And your placement in life is determined by your actions in your previous life. And you are blind to the reasons why you are in that position anyway.<<

yes your EC god definetly owns us all a explaination as to why he will further torture such unfortunate folks for ETERNITY in his frying pits just for choosing a non EC religion for example. I mean did he not get enough of a high by sending 6 million Jews to his eternal frying pits even after they had already been through Hitler's ovens ?

>>OWOL: Tell me arjun--Why is Bill Gates where he is, and why are you where you are? If past lives and reincarnation is true? <<

Umm..I may be a happier man than Bill for all we know.. I have nothing against him though.

EC god has absolutly no explanation as to he judges each human with no consideration of the diverse human experience he himself places them in.

>>OWOL: What answers can you give us to help solve humanities problems? Your selected type of worship arjun, offers no hope for us humans, offers no direction, offers no real purpose in life. I would rather spend all eternity in hell because then I would at least know where I stand with God. You don't even know what your god thinks of you, if you are valuable to him, you know nothing about what your god thinks or what he feels where you are concerned--let alone the rest of humanity. But if that is the god you choose to worship then more power to you, I guess...especially if you realize that the Christian view of redemption means that rejection of God's one and only Son means eternal damnation for your soul. At least with the Christian faith we know where we stand with God, we know that there is a hell (a place of eternal torment) and we know how to avoid it.: IOW what God requires of us. (faith in Christ.).. Which is more than I can say for your religion <<

If there be a living hell OWOL, it looks like you are the only one living in it.
As for me..I am free..

"PC wrote: Well hum OWOL, what do you think - seeing as you are still here too?

OWOL: I think we are given just 1 life to live, and that we are born exactly when we are supposed to be born, we live a specified amount of time and then we die to live eternally in heaven or hell, depending on who our faith was in when we died. If our faith was in Christ, then we go to heaven. If our faith was in ourselves and our own abilities then we go to hell."

And I respond: That's a rather limited view of life and death. What alternatives did you consider during that ten year plus reign of intensive world religions studies that you purportedly employed?

"PC says: It does not matter whether I gain heaven this time or the next time, the bottom line is: I will get there just like you and Charles Manson and Hitler will get there.

OWOL: Your statement above is contrary to those of Jesus. Jesus clearly teaches that we have just one life to live. The bible states very plainly It is appointed for a man to die but Once, and then the judgement.

And I respond: Is it really contrary to what Jesus taught, or is it simply contrary to those who wrote about Jesus? Hum. I argue the latter since it is a well-known fact that Jesus wrote absolutely nothing. Maybe you are referring to my comment being contrary to what Paul wrote - yes maybe that's it.

"OWOL: So on whose authority do you speak?"

And I respond: Lol. Subtle is SO smart --- he must be a seer or something. For....he prophesied that you would ask this question.

Of course I speak on my own authority. The question should be: upon whose authority do YOU speak OWOL? Go ahead .... let all the newcomers know who it is you speak FOR!! Don't dilly dally now.....

"PC says: What is your explanation of the poor hungry folk in your backyard?

OWOL: Good question. thank you for asking. My explanation is that we are a sinful, self centered, me first, race of people."

And I respond: Maybe you are, but don't think that you are speaking for the rest of us.

"OWOL: As long as we are doing everything for our own glory we will always have the poor with us. As proof of that I will submit to you that the fact is Money= Power= self Glorification. Becoming Rich and/or achieving fame is the #1 goal of ungodly Americans and those affected by western culture such as yourself. the second part of the explanation is that we will have the poor with us always--as Jesus said. The third part of the explanation is the sheer amount of waste that is created by the sinful human race is out of kilter. Because of the enormous ego's and the need for more and more stuff. The by product of that is that the hoarding of stuff we consume without regard to others results directly in some unfortunate people going without things that are necessary. Unfortunatly the small minority of regenerated Christians does not represent a large enough number to completely aleviate hunger. Unless the entire world banns together, with the One True God at the helm, we will never ever alevieate hunger. And that will never happen because all people care about in general is themselves. This is called the sin of Idolatry. having other gods before God, even if that god is yourself or money as in the case of the Rich Young Ruler (Luke, Chapter 10)"

And I respond to that lengthy sideways answer: Do you think that individuals are responsible for their own individual status in life or not? All this "sinful humanity" chatter makes me question your apparent disconnect with the intensity of this issue.

"OWOL: How much suffering would there be, Purple crow if everyone took on the role of Humble servant, and constantly strived to serve the needs of others the way Jesus did? Purplecrow? Would you be willing, Purplecrow, to go down to your local shelter and wash the dirty, stinky, feet of the homeless the way Jesus washed the feet of his disciples?. Think about the magnitude of that. Here was God in the flesh, washing the feet of the disciples."

And I respond: I find this question comes more often from those who have never taken the time to do such community service - for it does not include anywhere near the washing of "dirty, stinky, feet of the homeless". In fact, the statement alone shares that the concept of caring for the homeless is quite foreign to you.

Take the time to sit next to one of those 'stinky' people OWOL, and see what they can teach you about your own mortality. See what they can teach you about God and life. See then where you stand -- whether facing that homeless person with their head on your shoulders and their hands wrapped in yours --- or whether its with your back to them as you hop skip and jog out the door in order to maintain your own 'little' reality.

"OWOL: How about those babies that die of AIDS? What did they ever do, in thier past lives to ever deserve this?

PC responds: Who knows other than God?

OWOL: Your justification for this falls under the cruel and unusual punishment. I would ask how you could possibly worship a god like this, but being a pagan, you gladly worship gods who demand child sacrifices, regardless of culture from the east to the west says a little something about the fact that you hold human life with little regard."

And I respond: Your knowledge of what Paganism is speaks volumes toward that supposed ten years of intensive religious studies you claimed to have performed. And btw --- I do not send people to hell after one life, or after cycles of rebirths -- that is God. I have 'faith' that Gods way is the best way, you can question It all you want. I bet God has something in store for those who risk such a venture.

"PC says: God is as fair as God wants to be; it is not for me to judge God.

OWOL: But you certainly have no trouble judging the God of the Bible. So the next time you throw out venom, I will gladly point you back to your own words: It isn't for me to judge God."

And I respond: Venom - what venom? Stay on track with what is actually said or not said OWOL.

"PC:Perhaps it is because I socialize with people who do not care to tame their tongue or control their actions.

OWOL: You know what they say: Bad Company Corrupts Good Character."

And I respond: That's exactly correct OWOL. We agree!!

Btw, how's your husband doing?

"OWOL: Is it fair of god to expect you to be able to accomplish heaven without first telling you what is required? Where is your check list of to-do's? Why hasn't your god given you one? is that fair?

PC responds: Yes it's fair of God to do whatever It wishes whenever It wishes without having to explain Itself to poor humble ole human me.

OWOL: Glad you agree that God doesn't have to clear things with you before he does things.. Therefore If God decided to count righteousness as those who believe in his one and only Son, and condemn the rest, it is totally and completely fair. Since God can do and will do whatever he pleases."

And I respond: And, if God decided to count the righteousness as those who reach It in a state of perfection after cycles and cycles of purification --- then it is totally and completely fair. Since God can do and will do whatever IT pleases.

Your selected type of worship arjun, offers no hope for us humans, offers no direction, offers no real purpose in life. I would rather spend all eternity in hell because then I would at least know where I stand with God.

What the problem seems to be here, OWOL, is that you're trying to fit karma and rebirth into your paradigm. It's like comparing apples and oranges. The Eastern concept of God is not at all like the Abrahamic religion's concept of God. When you say "I would rather spend all eternity in hell because then I would at least know where I stand with God" it's sounds like you're saying "I would rather eat this rotten apple rather than that healthy orange because at least I know where I stand." (Not knowing anything about oranges.)

In the East, God is the Source of All, but it/he/she is not a judgemental God. Life is considered a process, not a proving ground. In Christianity, et al, God is separate and distant from his creation. In the Eastern religions it is all One, there is no separation, only illusion.

So you can't really judge arjun's or my beliefs because you have a totally different frame of reference. You're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole....and that's why it seems 'illogical' to you.

[QUOTE=lookingforinsight;31345][I]
....In the East, God is the Source of All, but it/he/she is not a judgemental God. Life is considered a process, not a proving ground. In Christianity, et al, God is separate and distant from his creation. In the Eastern religions it is all One, there is no separation, only illusion.

...........

So you can't really judge arjun's or my beliefs because you have a totally different frame of reference. You're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole....and that's why it seems 'illogical' to you.[/QUOTE]

Good point Looking.

I fail to see why God would choose eternal seperation from something he himself created...
To do so shows a God thats not in command..a God prone to tantrums simillar to a 2-year old toddler who repeatedly throws his toys and food on the floor..

In my view, a time will come for each soul to see the illusion of seperation shred away and to experience the oneness with the divine.

Well, I guess that depends on your definition of smart. He's probably a guy who is of average intelligence..about 100 IQ points.

Purplecrow: he must be a seer or something. For....he prophesied that you would ask this question.

OWOL: That is because I always ask this question. I have asked him this question more times than I can count. Unbelievers always say they speak from their own authority which I find funny because they have no authority when it comes to spiritual matters. In fact the majority of humanity has no authority what so ever. They can do nothing aside from move forward in time...they can't move backward, can't move sideways, can't call back the cup of coffee they just spilled all over the floor, back into the cup, they can't raise the dead, can't cure cancer, they can't control the weather, they can't walk on water, they can do nothing. They live and they die. Outside of that they have a very limited capacity to control a few things around them but that's abou
tit.

PC said: Of course I speak on my own authority.

OWOL: see what did I tell you...maybe I am the psychic...LOL!

PC: Maybe you are, but don't think that you are speaking for the rest of us.

OWOL: I think that the majority of the human race are like that. In our natural state we are self centered, selfish, me first race of people. We do not naturally do things for the Glory of God. We do them for the Glory of ourselves.. Because we want people to recognize the wonderfulness of us...Oh look at me, aren't I wonderful! Stars are like that, and we all want to be just like them, to one degree or another. Whose your favorite star, purple crow.? Who do you admire?

PC said: Do you think that individuals are responsible for their own individual status in life or not?

OWOL Of course. I also think that status is a form of idolatry. Like I said: we all want to be something, and we want to be recognized by our peers because we are so wonderful!!!! The things we do, are for our glory, not God's glory. And I would say that is especially true for atheists/agnostics. Since they believe there is nothing greater outside of themselves.

PC said: I find this question comes more often from those who have never taken the time to do such community service - for it does not include anywhere near the washing of "dirty, stinky, feet of the homeless". In fact, the statement alone shares that the concept of caring for the homeless is quite foreign to you.

OWOL: Thanks for side stepping the question. How about answering it now, instead of gazing into your crystal ball.

PC: Your knowledge of what Paganism is speaks volumes toward that supposed ten years of intensive religious studies you claimed to have performed. And btw --- I do not send people to hell after one life,

OWOL No , you just practice paganism which has a history of hienous forms of worship like child sacrifice in every pagan culture from the east to the west.

PC: Btw, how's your husband doing?

OWOL: why do you ask?

PC: And, if God decided to count the righteousness as those who reach It in a state of perfection after cycles and cycles of purification --- then it is totally and completely fair. Since God can do and will do whatever IT

OWOL: OK, well. first of all define perfection, as your god defines it and then compare that to your definition of perfection. I would like to hear your explanation of this.

LFI said: The Eastern concept of God is not at all like the Abrahamic religion's concept of God.

OWOL: I know, the eastern concept of God is more abstract, uncaring, "it", who does not know personally the name of every human being ever born. he is not the Alpha not the Omega, nor is he the beginning or the End. . Where the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, has a Title: Elohim, a personal name: Yahweh/Yeshua/Jesus which transliterates to Yah in the role of Savior. Jesus was/is the eternal Son of God. He has been with God since the beginning. The Word of God made flesh (John 1:1) and is involved personally and intimately with His group of people. He is a God who is cares about the human race and seeks to be intimately involved with them in a relationship, where the eastern god is an unknown god. It could be anything. --a couple of sticks in my backyard for instance. If you want to put your trust in an unknown god then be my guest. I prefer one who has actually demonstrated that he loves, and cares, and wants to be intimately involved with the human race.