If there is a problem that you've found with a move description, glossary definition or other attack-related (NOT SC RELATED) aspect of the ASB, this is the place to submit your proposals. In the past, we operated primarily under an open debate, but to keep the discussion more focused, we will be shifting to a proposal system. Additionally, we will now be doing the review once per month to allow us to tackle all the moves at once, and leave it open for a week to allow for discussion and review.

If you wish to submit a move for review, please post the following:

The current full description or rule (if applicable), highlighting any problem areas

The issues with the move (in bullet points or short paragraphs)

The proposed changes (please do not rewrite the moves yourself)

We will leave the discussion open, however, if the discussion diverts or gets out of hand, we reserve the right to freeze discussion on a particular move. Once the week has passed, we will review the discussions and perform the necessary rewrites. In order to keep the discussions readable, please clearly indicate the move you are discussing, preferably with quote tags so that we can follow the conversation. If you do not, we might miss your points.

We expect everyone in this thread to act civilly. Failure to follow these guidelines may result in banning from the thread and repeat offenses will result in potential loss of privileges.

We will open the thread for the first full calendar week of the month and close it the following weekend.

The current full description or rule (if applicable), highlighting any problem areas

Slack Off (NO) -- The user sits down and enters a lazy state in order to regain energy at a fast rate. The user will loll for about half a minute and will restore an extreme amount of energy if able to rest for the maximum time. Slack Off leaves the user feeling much more refreshed and energetic than Rest. The user may continue lolling in to the next round if applicable. Light, cumulative damage such as poison or weak draining moves will probably not interrupt the user, but sharper shocks may shock them out of their relaxed state, automatically ending the energy regain. Because the user is not fully asleep, they may be able to avoid slow moving attacks or adopt a defensive stance as needed, but they won't be able to attack while using the move.

The issues with the move (in bullet points or short paragraphs)

Super niche, and it is sad that it was made into a rest clone.

The proposed changes (please do not rewrite the moves yourself)

-Roost is better distributed, yet it serves dual purpose of health and energy. Can we do the same for this one a la roost?

The current full description or rule (if applicable), highlighting any problem areas
Rest (NO) -- The user settles down and goes to sleep in order to regain energy at a fast rate. The user will sleep for about half a minute, the same length as most rounds, and will restore x1.5 a Hyper Beam worth of energy if able to sleep for the maximum time. The user may continue sleeping in to the next round if applicable. Since Rest is self-induced sleep, it is somewhat deeper than average sleep, meaning that more damage is needed to wake the user, around heavy, and only sound moves such as Uproar that specialize in waking can disturb them. Rest may only be used once per Pokémon.

The issues with the move (in bullet points or short paragraphs)

It can do just a tad more, and after running it by Sneaze, he liked the idea.

The proposed changes (please do not rewrite the moves yourself)

Can rest reset the toxic ticker back to zero? That would be great for long term planning, and helps tame toxic just a smidge with the right set up.

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Subject 2: Dual Types rewrite attempt 2.0

The current full description or rule (if applicable), highlighting any problem areas

Muddy Water (GD/WT) -- The user shoots out a very powerful, but dirty, stream of water, which does considerable damage and might lower the opponent(s) accuracy if it hits in their eyes. Since it uses half Ground and Water energy, its type-effectiveness is slightly different, dealing super effective hits to Poison, Steel, Ground, Electric, Rock and Fire types, while being resisted by Water, Dragon, Grass and Bug types. The damage from Muddy Water will never be doubly effective or doubly ineffective against a single-typed Pokémon.

Sludge Wave (PO/WA) --The user issues a huge watery wave of toxic sludge, washing over the foe for significant damage. The large size of the wave allows it to hit multiple targets at once. This attack has a 10% chance of poisoning. Since it uses half Poison and half Water energy, its type-effectiveness is slightly different, dealing super effective hits to Fire and Fairy, while being resisted by Dragon, Ghost, Poison and Water. Steel types are considered resistant in the same way they resist moves such as Sludge Bomb. The damage from Sludge Wave will never be doubly effective or doubly ineffective against a single-typed Pokémon.

Flying Press (FT/FL) - The user leaps into the air, coming down on top of the target with its full weight, dealing considerable damage. Since this move is half Flying and half Fighting, its type-effectiveness is slightly different, dealing super effective damage to Normal, Fighting, Ice, Dark and Grass Pokeémon and resisted damage to Electric, Flying, Poison, Psychic and Fairy Pokeémon. The damage from Flying Press will never be doubly effective or doubly ineffective against a single-typed Pokeémon.

Dragon Rage (Various) -- The user summons a powerful attack which is dependent on the arena. If there is water present between the two Pokeémon, the user summons a spiral of energy, which is quickly sent at the opponent, sucking up the water in the arena to deal significant Water-typed damage for significant energy. If there isn't water, it's a large fireball which deals heavy damage in a mix of dragon and fire energy, dealing Super Effective damage on Bug, Grass and Ice-types and Not Very Effective damage on Fire and Fairy types. The fireball may be used in an aqueous environment, but the water version is arena-dependent.

The issues with the move (in bullet points or short paragraphs)

1)Potential for offtype abuse. There is a chance for some pokemon to use these moves 4 times.

2)Flying Press and Dragon Rage has a couple of typos with the word "Pokeémon"

3)The wording of Dragon Rage poses an ambiguity issue that I'm trying to get clarified.

The proposed changes (please do not rewrite the moves yourself)

1) Rework the bolded part so it only uses one offtype, lowering their potential use to only 2 per standard amounts. "Although it is a mixture of ground and water, it only uses ground energy" Ground/Poison/Fighting/Dragon should be their respective type energy. There is a quasi in game precedent for this with Flying Press alone; you can normalize the attack, electrificy, etc and it will always retain flying as its second typing. For ASB purposes, they no longer become spammable with this solution.

See I feel like these are inherently a bad idea. They're either ridiculously overpowered (Muddy Water) or total trash (Sludge Wave and Dragon Rage).

Flying Press should be done DT's way imo. It's the only balanced one and it would be following the way it works in the games and appears to work in the anime.

The rest, in my opinion, should be made their original types (Water, Poison, Dragon), and made like Freeze-Dry- Hit 1 type it normally wouldn't for SE. My suggestions would be Muddy Water hit Electric SE (as the former GL I assure you Electric is plenty good enough and doesn't need any help), Sludge Wave hit Fire SE, and Dragon Rage hit Ice SE. If deemed necessary, bump the damage down to Solid for all three and make it so the changed type chart only works when used by a mon with STAB.

Alternatively, make them actually work like they do in the games- Muddy Water can do considerable and drastically lower the opponent's accuracy especially if in the eyes etc, Sludge Wave could be a true and blue special Poison type attack to differentiate it from Sludge Bomb, Dragon Rage's fire ball form could be made into an attack that always does X (Significant?) Damage regardless of weakness, resistance, boosts and drops. Or it could be a Dragon-Typed Sonicboom clone.

Honestly the possibilities are endless but with the exception of Flying Press Dual type moves are just a bad idea and really ought be changed. I know this isn't Game Style Battling but these moves are incredibly unbalanced and idek if there's actual anime evidence for any of these.

The biggest reason why I have left Dual Types as they are is that I have yet to find a good middle ground where they are both not abuseable and still actually worth using over other attacks. However, some people have abused that fact and now we have swung back to where they are abuesable again.

I don't really like Snorby's idea because let's be honest it just turns them into shit moves (Sonicboom is literally the worst move in ASB). One type energy only is an interesting idea... until you consider the fact that Lickitung has Muddy Water. If you make it only use Ground energy, then you fuck over Water weaks by giving Lickitung the ability to use double the Water moves for free and vice versa. Same goes for Luchachu and Water/Grounds and the handful of Pokémon that genuinely benefit from having Dragon Rage.

So far I see no good options here and while I don't really like the status quo either I am not really sure what to do about this.

> Edit: Connor had the shared opinion that it should take full offtype for both types, which was my original proposal. Why is that not a food fix? Who suffers if it is done that way?

In what way would this move every be good to use if I'm say Quagsire or Tentacool? There's pretty much no benefit to use it over Earthquake or Hydro Pump or Sludge Bomb.

Yes there is for muddy water; it has a chance to blind, it can be ranged which most ground moves are not, and it has the potential to cause 3x. If you dont have the strategic opening, then dont use it at that time? Tenta family does not get another ground move, so some ground off type for two uses is more tamed than four assuming that you give it hp ground. Dual type moves are not a solve all move and should be used with some strategy in mind. We already agree that three is too much, and four is insane.

I personally like snorbys idea of making them work similar to freeze dry. If you drop the damage down to solid, your not going to be doing ground breaking amounts of damage, unless of course your hitting as a x3 so like snorbys proposed muddy water would hit a stunfisk x 3 and dragon rage would hit kyurem for x3 (lol). Even at x3 your only looking at 21minors if we change the strength to solid, and you could possibly leave the energy at considerable or significant to make it less spam efficient. This way it limits the range of Pokemon you can spam these attacks at and stops you from making your water pokemons hidden power ground and getting full offtype cause you have muddy water.

I personally like snorbys idea of making them work similar to freeze dry. If you drop the damage down to solid, your not going to be doing ground breaking amounts of damage, unless of course your hitting as a x3 so like snorbys proposed muddy water would hit a stunfisk x 3 and dragon rage would hit kyurem for x3 (lol). Even at x3 your only looking at 21minors if we change the strength to solid, and you could possibly leave the energy at considerable or significant to make it less spam efficient. This way it limits the range of Pokemon you can spam these attacks at and stops you from making your water pokemons hidden power ground and getting full offtype cause you have muddy water.

A la Freeze Dry is not something I like. Full dual type is much more practical and plays a heavier role than just one type. You have to consider dual type mons before using. There is an array of questions you need to ask before you squad someone with a dual typed move that you plan to use.

Well then you would also have to do that for freeze dry, which is one of the main benefits of the move in the first place. When you think about it though it isn't really that broken allowing it to hit 3x. Electric types have stab to hit water types using muddy water. Ground types have stab to hit poison types using sludge wave, ice types have stab to hit dragons using dragon rage. That's if we decide to do it as a freeze dry variation.

Anyway there are literally no special poison attacks right now (Could be wrong if something like Belch or Venoshock was changed when I wasn't looking) so that would give Sludge Wave a very solid use. Blindness is a fun tool to work with and honestly differentiates Muddy Water from the slew of water attacks that have no secondary effect. It'd be a cool middle ground between brine's secondary effect and water gun's power, for example. And making Dragon Rage an attack that always deals Heavy (for example) Damage regardless of resistance/opp's defense boosts/user's attack drops makes it an incredibly useful move imo.

Really, when you look at the mon that learn these moves, they'll all have some use: Muk/Swalot etc would love to have a Poison move that breaks through reflect, Goodra/basically any water lacking Water Gun would like a straight up spammable STAB move stronger than Water Pulse, and either proposed version of Dragon Rage imo has a lot of utility on virtually any mon under the right conditions.

Everything I could say about Freeze Dry has already been said by myself or someone else so no further comment there.

I honestly don't see a major problem with either of Snorby's suggestions (lol biased?) and I can't say I completely understand the stigma attached to Freeze Dry-esque moves, especially in attempting to give a move a niche, but I'm sure you have your reasons, Jeri, so I won't push that.

THAT BEING SAID
I do have an idea

I really need to get the right words for it though and it's too late today to really do that so I might edit my idea into this post tomorrow but it's probably an okay idea? idk I'm tired

EDIT: Aw screw it I'll just bounce some ideas off the wall and if I have my HUGE EPIPHANY I'll edit it in but for now this is all you get

Okay so I think that if you're worried about people abusing different type charts with unlimited offtype or whatever, you might be able to make it a limited amount of uses for Pokemon that don't naturally get both types while simultaneously not having it contribute to levels of offtype a Pokemon would start off with OR draining the offtype. Alternatively, make it full offtype for Pokemon that share one of their types with the move (i.e. Sludge Wave) but not the other, and then make it different for if it's completely offtype for the Pokemon (i.e. Dragon Rage on a Grass type or something).

If you're not really worried about people with different type charts, then just make it the type it is in the game (Water Muddy Water, Poison Sludge Wave, Dragon Dragon Rage), keep the weird type chart to keep it niche, and call it a day, but I guess you are worried about that.

I would definitely be writing the ability to cause x3 properly out of these moves whenever I make any changes.

This is a severealy bad idea and is the kind of thing that will contribute to making them absolute shit. Do not do this, seriously. The moves should be usable and not shit. Right now, you feel they're a bit too abusable (which they arguably are, slightly), going too far in the opposite direction would be far worse.

The best compromise would really be to make them take 2/3 their power level from each energy pool, and/or have some note somewhere that access to Muddy Water et al as the only moves of their offtype doesn't grant as much type energy as a purely-typed move.

I would definitely be writing the ability to cause x3 properly out of these moves whenever I make any changes.

I dislike this idea, could please clarify why? Im inclined to take your opinion if you explain your rationale at the very least.

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I was meaning to include poison moves,but I forgot! Thank you Snorbs

The current full description or rule (if applicable), highlighting any problem areas

Sludge Bomb (PO) -- The user fires a few large round 'bubbles' of sludge at the target. The bubble itself becomes hard in mid-flight, then explodes on contact like a tiny bomb. The sludge inside is very reactive, which is cause for the explosion. They can be fired either in a tight cluster or spread out to hit multiple targets. Each bomb deals moderate damage, and if most or all hit, it deals significant damage. The sludge is highly toxic, and has a 30% chance of poisoning the foe.

Belch (PO) - The user lets out a strong burp, sending forth a massive bubble of toxic goo. The bubble then floats towards the foe, exploding on contact. Any Pokémon hit by the bubble will suffer major damage.

Sludge (PO) -- The user fires a large mass of sludge at its target that splatters on contact, dealing solid damage. The sludge has a high chance (~30%) for poison on contact.

The issues with the move (in bullet points or short paragraphs)

The way we interpret these moves leads me to believe that they are all physical projectiles.

Cubic Reflect/Light Screen are becoming an emerging trend because they are really good to set up at any time a trainer gets a chance. Poison lacks ASB physical/special diversity for some reason, where the strongest special move is Venoshock under the opponent being poisoned. Can we fix that?

I'm not saying change all three versions, but it would be nice to have Belch be completely special with similar stipulation to bubble minus the fragility. That would add a nice balance.

Sludge Bomb still has my wonderful suggestion: globally special and less explosive for non poisons with a smaller chance to poison (probably 10% to mirror the game's effect), and an additional poison exclusive physical option with more explosive properties while retaining the great 30% chance to poison. Why serve dual purpose for Sludge Bomb just for poisons? Not all poisons get Belch or Sludge.

Sludge: If the above two are fixed, there is no obligation to change the status quo on this one. Though, as it stands barely anyone uses this move because of its low distribution to begin with. It could get the viscous vs non viscous format of Sludge Bomb that I mentioned above which could help poisons with diversity.

I'll throw in that I have in many cases seen people ref Acid (Spray) and even Venoshock as blocked by Reflect. Additionally, Smog usually doesn't deal Poison-typed damage. So really in the minds of many refs right now we only have 1 special Poison attack, and it does less damage than even HP Poison.

If we aren't gonna change any Poison moves that a currently physical projectiles to special attacks then I hope at the very least the ones who get reffed both ways will be clarified to be special.

I just typed up this big long explanation post and promptly lost it so here's bullet points.

Misunderstood on the x3, I don't love that it can do x3 but I can't really stop it, we need to make it explicit that all this effectiveness doesn't stack if you're weak against both types

Snorby's idea is the most balanced but boring, also just avoids the problem

Freeze-Dry version is interesting but feels arbitrary

Forcing them to pull from both slots might just be what we have to do, but i'd like to see Snorby's version as well, maybe we can do STAB versions that can be used without the extra energy and have a fun effect instead

>Poison moves

Yeah Sludge Bomb being physical is sort of a weird holdover. We should probably change it. I'll look at these a little more closely when discussion is over.

>Slack Off

I feel like when I rewrote this it served some kind of better purpose. I don't really like Health restoration on this one and I think that energy restoration would be a better niche. I'll probably just make it a better version of Rest that you can more easily control and break from so you can use a move to control your exhaustion a little better.

Toxic damage builds up overtime. If a trainer were to rest around ticker 5, and reset it back to 0, then it is something the toxic'ed trainer can recover from and not let toxic become a run away train. It requires sacrifice and set up since the pokemon resting becomes a sitting duck that might quack via sleep talk, but even then the opponent can be smart and stand behind the resting pokemon to avoid an aimless attack.

No, I understand why you would want it but that is not actual good justification for me to do it.

I rewrite moves to make them more balanced or interesting, not to fix people's pet peeves or give them get out of jail free cards to strategies they don't know how to outplay.

Well granted everyone should walk around with apost!aromatherapy and apost!heal bell for their own benefit, but eh. I guess you are right, that would be too much hand holding. Still, Slack Off feels underwhelming because it is no better than rest with its current incarnation, despite it being a niche move with low distribution.

Could it get a mind altering effect where the pokemon becomes either apathetic, or neutral minded? I dunno, the current version has very little usability of difference over rest. If you were the user Jeri, why would you use the current version of slack off? You probably see something that I don't at the moment.