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Why would you train a pure neijia? What is the disadvantage of learning something that is not fully neijia? Are the qualities of kuzushi on contact, technique arising naturally from a dantien-powered movement, non-telegraphed strikes, and powerful strikes with no wind-up characteristics of a neijia arts? If so, does this suggest that those qualities are watered down in systems that are not considered "neijia" in your eyes? If not, what is it about neijia that sets it apart from other arts that are not neijia? What besides those martial qualities I described above does neijia offer that pure non-neijia arts don't? How do you known that what Sam, Ark, or Dan does not offer what pure neijia offers and how do you judge this? What is about a neijia that makes you want to focus on it and not on the distractions?

Why would you train pure neijia? Because they are fascinating arts that I've been reading about for a long time, and the qualities you mention are attractive. I don't think no-wind up strikes are 'watered' down in non-neijia arts, they are just more powered by local muscle. One advantage of the neijia is that you can deliver significant power without having lots of muscle. But such strikes, done externally, certainly can work (and they are certainly easier to learn and use more quickly, two not insignificant advantages to the waijia). But if they are powered by local muscle (upper body muscle) rather than Dantien-controlled whole body power, all the time (check the requirements for taiji, bagua, xingyi movement), then they by definition aren't neijia. And one thing neijia masters say over and over is that if you want to get good at those arts, you have to go all in, re-training your body to move from the Dantien is hard, even harder if you're training it some of the time and training external arts some of the time.

Ark was actually quite disdainful of Dantien-powered movement when I saw him last (even though, as I mentioned, it was clear he sometimes used such movement). But it's not 'all Dantien all the time' with him, and again, that is one key definition of the neijia.

What makes me want to focus on the neijia? What makes me love Tim O'Brien novels? Just crazy like that, I guess. I'm an amateur, this is a hobby for me...they're fun and difficult in that way that all engrossing hobbies should be. If I were solely interested in defending myself or winning fights I'd still be doing muay thai and kali escrima.

Why would you train pure neijia? Because they are fascinating arts that I've been reading about for a long time, and the qualities you mention are attractive. I don't think no-wind up strikes are 'watered' down in non-neijia arts, they are just more powered by local muscle. One advantage of the neijia is that you can deliver significant power without having lots of muscle. But such strikes, done externally, certainly can work (and they are certainly easier to learn and use more quickly, two not insignificant advantages to the waijia). But if they are powered by local muscle (upper body muscle) rather than Dantien-controlled whole body power, all the time (check the requirements for taiji, bagua, xingyi movement), then they by definition aren't neijia. And one thing neijia masters say over and over is that if you want to get good at those arts, you have to go all in, re-training your body to move from the Dantien is hard, even harder if you're training it some of the time and training external arts some of the time.

Ark was actually quite disdainful of Dantien-powered movement when I saw him last (even though, as I mentioned, it was clear he sometimes used such movement). But it's not 'all Dantien all the time' with him, and again, that is one key definition of the neijia.

What makes me want to focus on the neijia? What makes me love Tim O'Brien novels? Just crazy like that, I guess. I'm an amateur, this is a hobby for me...they're fun and difficult in that way that all engrossing hobbies should be. If I were solely interested in defending myself or winning fights I'd still be doing muay thai and kali escrima.

JLB

Thanks for your answers.

"don't think no-wind up strikes are 'watered' down in non-neijia arts, they are just more powered by local muscle. " Interesting. I would say those who are in the non-neijia arts might that their strikes are not powered by "local" muscle. I think Ark, Dan, and Sam Chin would claim something like that. But I could be definitely wrong. I don't want to put words in their mouth. Maybe Dan can chime in? Dan would definitely say that his movements are dantien-powered. What do you have to say about that?

"Ark was actually quite disdainful of Dantien-powered movement when I saw him last (even though, as I mentioned, it was clear he sometimes used such movement). But it's not 'all Dantien all the time' with him, and again, that is one key definition of the neijia."

I have no comment on this besides some questions. In what context did Ark say this? Do you know in what moments Ark said that "dantien" movement is not efficient? And in your case, why would "dantien-powered" movement all the time be efficient?

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.

Why would you train pure neijia? Because they are fascinating arts that I've been reading about for a long time, and the qualities you mention are attractive. I don't think no-wind up strikes are 'watered' down in non-neijia arts, they are just more powered by local muscle. One advantage of the neijia is that you can deliver significant power without having lots of muscle. But such strikes, done externally, certainly can work (and they are certainly easier to learn and use more quickly, two not insignificant advantages to the waijia). But if they are powered by local muscle (upper body muscle) rather than Dantien-controlled whole body power, all the time (check the requirements for taiji, bagua, xingyi movement), then they by definition aren't neijia. And one thing neijia masters say over and over is that if you want to get good at those arts, you have to go all in, re-training your body to move from the Dantien is hard, even harder if you're training it some of the time and training external arts some of the time.

JLB

Thanks for the response. I had wondered what you had meant, too.

But, dantien controlled whole body power all the time? Are we saying that's the end goal of the art? As you said, it's hard training to accomplish. If so, then Ueshiba's aikido would be considered neijia. So would Takeda's Daito ryu. As would Chen Fake's student Hong Jungshen and his students, Li Chugong and Liu Chengde. So, those lineages would be neijia if the actual training was handed down to all students. There was a reason for the title, "indoor disciple". Takeda stated only to train a few in the secrets. How do we, then, label those arts where only a few were trained in the secrets, which dantien-controlled whole body power was most likely one? Do we then say that neijia is only a term for certain people, rather than the overall art?

the exchange between JLB and Ashe started to sound like those old kungfu movie. you know the ones where the lips moved then the sound catched up a few seconds later. ya, you know what i am talking about.

Master Yu-Se Ma-Ma (YSMM): your master kungfu no good! he no neigung! *lips moving...wait for it ...wait for it... there's the sound*

*flash back to various training scenes with guys kicking each other crotch...*

you know i could be the director for the next martial arts movie with title: Aikido - the internal stuffings with gravy and sweet potato pie. looking for starting roles and various grips (still have no idea what those poeople are gripping but i am sure we need them).

.. do we, then, label those arts where only a few were trained in the secrets, which dantien-controlled whole body power was most likely one? Do we then say that neijia is only a term for certain people, rather than the overall art?

Well, as far as labels matter this is tricky isnt it? If you consider that in the "neijia" this indoor stuff seems to be the norm rather than the exception. I dont know, it seems safer to let the label stay with the people who coined it and set store on it. The skill, the whole skill and the rabbit hole of how much is available to you seems to be a different level of conversation. Steal this technique is not going to be very conducive to generating a common understanding , a consistent one, or an unchanging one.

O sensei was continuously learning. He adapted things from other arts (lets not spin off into the old saw about Aikido not coming from DR). Wer'e trying to pin something that was being cooked in a long simmer to a fixed formula; a recipe that was always the same and never changed. I think that just confuses things.

the exchange between JLB and Ashe started to sound like those old kungfu movie. you know the ones where the lips moved then the sound catched up a few seconds later.

Yeah, little bit of drama, but for those have have known me for some time, I've always walked softly, but those days are done, it's time to make some noise. For those with ears to listen I'm ringing the bell, so if that means responding to sideways remarks from random dudes, so be it.

In that case whatever you're doing it doesn't seem to be improving your mood.

Wer'e having a discussion about internal strength parameters, hopefully improving the quality of the discussion a bit. Are you sure that this depends on you having the big stick? What if you're unable to manhandle some excellent athlete of the western kind? Does that mean you know nothing about internal strength?

In that case whatever you're doing it doesn't seem to be improving your mood.

Wer'e having a discussion about internal strength parameters, hopefully improving the quality of the discussion a bit. Are you sure that this depends on you having the big stick? What if you're unable to manhandle some excellent athlete of the western kind? Does that mean you know nothing about internal strength?

This started as a thread about discussing internal strength parameters according to Mike Sigman's parameters or so I'm inferring from the title. No one from ILC posted on this thread or added to it until Joe Brown decided to turn it into a "I'm going to call out who I don't think is deserving of the neijia title"

If you want to discuss the "parameters" as you'd like to define it then go ahead. But I could just as easily start throwing out names from Ueshiba, Tim Cartmell, Dan Harden, Sam Chin, etc - call bullshit on it and start an argument all based on my "validity" of sitting behind my computer and pointing to some other guy's blog.

In short, being a troll unfortunately still succeeds in getting the responses trolls seek.

Ashe's original response was an emotional one based on a statement about ILC and Sifu Chin that were derived from someone watching youtube videos. The comments about ILC didn't have any relevance regarding the topic of the thread other than to claim what ILC is 'not' but without any first hand knowledge or experience of the art, Sam Chin etc. - i.e. trolling and Ashe reacted.

Ashe then replies about it being a bit of drama. Your reply isn't getting back to the topic on hand to discuss dantien, ming men, spiraling etc.. just more of the same .. trolling..

discuss the topic, that's all I'm saying. If you want to make a determination about ILC then discuss and ask questions about how ILC is trained and what's in the system.

Reading Mike Sigman's blog just about everything outlined is part of ILC training as I know it..

Ashe btw is very humble, quite skilled and knowledgeable and I'm certain can really fight and apply his art, which I find to be extremely rare in the internal arts world.

Ok , fine. I'll bring it back on topic. If you disagree with JLB about the place of ILC in the internal arts, please start a thread on that.

Internal Strength might possibly allow you to beat me up. I dont think thats the differentiating point.
Its how you use your body. There are different levels to this; if you have mastery of all these things, all the more power to you (quite). If you want to help us poor non internal strength Aikidoka see the light, well thank you.

Joseph is a real person, not a fictional character here to goad you. I am real enough. I'm not interested in jerking your chain. Mike Sigman's blog posts have nothing in there that you dont do; great! I didnt know 1/10 of this stuff 10 years ago; and these blogs are putting out information that was not being shared openly before, at least where I could see them. They are good posts, informative and not appealing to claims of invincibility nor making threats to anyone.

Dont be so sensitive; people here are being told Aikido has nothing in it; and that we're all fools. Youre all getting emotional about not being acknowledged as the best of the best. Thats just downright silly.

Well, as far as labels matter this is tricky isnt it? If you consider that in the "neijia" this indoor stuff seems to be the norm rather than the exception. I dont know, it seems safer to let the label stay with the people who coined it and set store on it. The skill, the whole skill and the rabbit hole of how much is available to you seems to be a different level of conversation. Steal this technique is not going to be very conducive to generating a common understanding , a consistent one, or an unchanging one.

And the point you were trying to make is?

Quote:

Alfonso Adriasola wrote:

O sensei was continuously learning. He adapted things from other arts (lets not spin off into the old saw about Aikido not coming from DR). Wer'e trying to pin something that was being cooked in a long simmer to a fixed formula; a recipe that was always the same and never changed. I think that just confuses things.

Please list the arts that Ueshiba studied, took things from, and showed in some manner.

Please provide proof that Saito was wrong when he looked at the Budo book and stated that it was what Ueshiba taught him.

Please provide proof Ueshiba or his students stating that Ueshiba learned some martial art and then adapted it into his teaching.

Please start a new thread with the answers.

If you can't do those things ... then maybe it's your theories that are confusing things?

Mark, I said I didnt mean that Ueshiba was not primarily involved in DR.

Please prove that all the assertions where he went to someone and said "in Aiki we do it like this" were not about him exploring other things than DR.

What please are my theories?

Oh, and I meant in the first part , that saying aikido is neijia is just confusing things more. That is a word that means something specific, historically. Its like coming up with "Aiki self improvement" for psychology. It is not helpful.

This started as a thread about discussing internal strength parameters according to Mike Sigman's parameters or so I'm inferring from the title. No one from ILC posted on this thread or added to it until Joe Brown decided to turn it into a "I'm going to call out who I don't think is deserving of the neijia title"

If you want to discuss the "parameters" as you'd like to define it then go ahead. But I could just as easily start throwing out names from Ueshiba, Tim Cartmell, Dan Harden, Sam Chin, etc - call bullshit on it and start an argument all based on my "validity" of sitting behind my computer and pointing to some other guy's blog.

In short, being a troll unfortunately still succeeds in getting the responses trolls seek.

Exactly
Anything even *related* to that person in the OP usually turns into accusations and unsupported assertions. Now it involves people with little skill discussing whether or not..I or Sam..use dantian??
Hilarious.
Again, if certain people want to use certain untested mens assertions of what nejia is, I would ask what is HIS track record up against those vetted to have internal power by their very own definition.
I am uninterested in some western guys opinion of me unseen and untouched. I will take the very big dogs they have named...opinions.
Bowen might want to consider when discussing video, just..who... has been widely discredited for the way he moves by the very people he claims to be moving ....like.
I agree with Ashe that the parameters of the discussion are pretty funny right from the source material.

In that case whatever you're doing it doesn't seem to be improving your mood.

i'm actually very chill. being assertive is not the same thing as being an @$$h0l3.

one thing you'll never find me doing is speaking negatively of other arts or teachers, regardless of my personal opinions, if for nothing else than many of them are making their living from teaching, it's how they provide for their families, which is a much more important thing. you don't break someone else's rice bowl. it's basic wude.

at the same time ILC has something very special to share for those who are looking for it, so that's the reason for the firmness of my response. There's no more time to hide our light under a bushel so to speak, or for simply ignoring ill-informed comments. Sifu is 58 years old and he's not going to travel the world forever.

Quote:

Alfonso Adriasola wrote:

Wer'e having a discussion about internal strength parameters, hopefully improving the quality of the discussion a bit. Are you sure that this depends on you having the big stick? What if you're unable to manhandle some excellent athlete of the western kind? Does that mean you know nothing about internal strength?

well, as I stated in my earlier post

Quote:

because this type of power and skill is not just he result of one thing (i.e. dan tien), but the culmination / relationship between all the parts, like dan tien, ming men, huan yuan "energy", peng "energy", spiral force and tai chi and so on.

of course timing and spacing are another aspect, (i.e. timing and distance, range and body lines) so if the timing is off then of course you'll get smashed too no matter who you're messing with. it all factors in.

it's all spokes in a wheel. each spoke shares a relationship back to the center. The more spokes you have, the stronger the wheel, but you can't say any one spoke is most important.

Dont be so sensitive; people here are being told Aikido has nothing in it; and that we're all fools. Youre all getting emotional about not being acknowledged as the best of the best. Thats just downright silly.

my final reply on the personal non-topic detour.. I've never said anything about Aikido, I go and play with the Aiki/DR folks locally here all the time. Any issues I have with Aikido I discuss with the people local who I train with. No one in ILC is seeking or has sought acknowledgment of being the best of the best.

So you are asking us to refrain from using Chinese terms to describe the physical skills we're engaging in so as to not confuse the terms. That's cool.

I just find it interesting that people who never formally studied with DR guys with aiki skills but have gained skills in Chinese arts are now defining what "aiki" or "kokyu" (Japanese terms that point to a particular skill) is. Would you also ask these people to refrain from using Japanese terms so as to prevent confusion? If not, why not?

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.

"don't think no-wind up strikes are 'watered' down in non-neijia arts, they are just more powered by local muscle. " Interesting. I would say those who are in the non-neijia arts might that their strikes are not powered by "local" muscle. I think Ark, Dan, and Sam Chin would claim something like that. But I could be definitely wrong. I don't want to put words in their mouth. Maybe Dan can chime in? Dan would definitely say that his movements are dantien-powered. What do you have to say about that?

"Ark was actually quite disdainful of Dantien-powered movement when I saw him last (even though, as I mentioned, it was clear he sometimes used such movement). But it's not 'all Dantien all the time' with him, and again, that is one key definition of the neijia."

Hi Lorel
Thanks. No lengthy answer, I'm on a plane. I don't want to interfere too much with all the agendas popping up...
I have taught dantian driven movement for over twenty years.
"The hand doesn't move without the center/ the center doesn't move without the hand" ...is a teaching of Daito ryu. One that Howard and I both learned more than two decades ago. It is a specific teaching with specialized exercises solo and paired to learn how to,....activate...hara (dantian). Thus we find it hilarious to read internet personalities and their followers telling us we don't use dantian.

There is no need to engage these people. As you and many others know, I have crossed hands with the real experts...not bloggers. Maybe its meaningful that the experts...who actually had a lengthy one on one exchange...do not share the same opinions as those who have never laid a hand on me or seen me move.

"The hand doesn't move without the center/ the center doesn't move without the hand" ...is a teaching of Daito ryu. One that Howard and I both learned more than two decades ago. It is a specific teaching with specialized exercises solo and paired to learn how to,....activate...hara (dantian). Thus we find it hilarious to read internet personalities and their followers telling us we don't use dantian.

As far as I understand the devil is (as ever) in the details, i.e. what kind of connection is there between the hand and the dantien and what other body connections come into play?
Oh well, small chance we'll ever figure it out without doing a show-and-tell, but just wanted to throw in my 2 cents.