Is anyone else building a wolf guard terminator list? If so, what are your plans for it? I am actually considering running Logan Grimnar and 4 squads of terminators with 2 in landraiders....

Chumbalaya

09-30-2009, 11:44 AM

It's going to be like Deathwing, a handful of expensive models up against a full army. Outnumbered, outgunned, outmatched, but never out-awesome'd!

A mech Loganwing is going to be really expensive with a paltry handful of models. 2 Land Raiders are tough, but if that's your whole army they won't last long. You'll need to incorporate cheap, disposable units to back up your army and do the job if your Terminators get unlucky.

I really love the idea of Wolf Guard terminators with 1 wolf claw and a storm bolter...just seems more "Space Wolfie" than TH/SB or PW/SB. In any case what do you folks think?

Chumbalaya

09-30-2009, 09:38 PM

That's an awful lot of points sunk in fighty dudes on foot. You have no real answer to vehicles and are basically just rushing up the field hoping to make it. You won't. Any mobile army can hold you at arm's length and whittle your numbers down.

I like cyclones since they can knock out light armor and with Logan's Tank Hunters threaten AV14. But otherwise, combi-meltas and Wolf Claws are cheap upgrades I'd high recommend.

Confuddled

09-30-2009, 10:11 PM

That's an awful lot of points sunk in fighty dudes on foot. You have no real answer to vehicles and are basically just rushing up the field hoping to make it.
... …

I like cyclones since they can knock out light armor and with Logan's Tank Hunters threaten AV14. But otherwise, combi-meltas and Wolf Claws are cheap upgrades I'd high recommend.
Amen to that.

I’d also recommend a drop pod or three to give you a little more power projection.

That's an awful lot of points sunk in fighty dudes on foot. You have no real answer to vehicles and are basically just rushing up the field hoping to make it. You won't. Any mobile army can hold you at arm's length and whittle your numbers down.

I like cyclones since they can knock out light armor and with Logan's Tank Hunters threaten AV14. But otherwise, combi-meltas and Wolf Claws are cheap upgrades I'd high recommend.
Do you think that if I swap 3 of the assault cannons out for cyclones that I will have enough firepower to deal with tanks...(along with the TH and PF if I manage to close)

I would really like to keep the army all Termies...though I am not overly offended by the idea of adding a couple of Predators if I have to...like maybe drop 5 termies from the last squad and and a couple of basic Preds?

mkerr

09-30-2009, 10:29 PM

I just did an all Wolf Guard army in Apocalypse (Grimnar, Njal and 4 Landraiders full of Power Armored Wolf Guard) and it was pretty awesome. I missed the free weapons, but the extra attack was pretty sweet.

I've been toying with a Wolf Guard-heavy army that's mostly Terminators in Drop Pods (just for fun). This is pretty much off the top of my head, but it looks like fun. There's some complicated stuff in it, so I'll just show you where the extra Wolf Guard end up.

Notes: Instead of putting 5 Terminators in Drop Pods, I opted for 4 Terminators and 2 Wolf Guard in power armor. This let's me put the two combi-meltas on the power armor guys (and let them soak up wounds, if necessary).

Dirty Trick #1: To help me assign wounds, none of the Wolf Guard in Power Armor are "identical". One gave up his Close Combat weapon for the Combi-Melta and the other gave up his Bolt Pistol for the Combi-Melta. This let's me pile up wounds more effectively.

This also has my new favorite Grey Hunter squad build (9 Grey Hunters, 1 Meltagun, 1 MotW and 1 Wolf Guard with combi-melta and MotW). You'll notice no Power Weapon/Fist, but I do have two guys with Mark of the Wulfen, which gives me 2d6+2 S4 Rending attacks for 188pts. Not too shabby.

This army isn't going to win a lot of games (it's just doesn't have any staying power), but it's going to be a ton of fun on the board. If you can survive long enough to enjoy it, lol. :)

-- mkerr

Confuddled

09-30-2009, 11:13 PM

Do you think that if I swap 3 of the assault cannons out for cyclones that I will have enough firepower to deal with tanks...(along with the TH and PF if I manage to close)

Not really.

Its not just a matter of having the cyclones – the other problem is that there’s no guarantee that you’ll be able to bring all of them to bear on any given enemy tank.

In an ideal situation, each and every unit in an army would have the ability to engage enemy armour, be it at long range (lascannon, missile launchers), short range (melta weapons) or close combat (S8+ attacks).

As it stands, if you concentrate the cyclones, it makes it that much easier for the other guy to outmanoeuvre your army.

If you spread the cyclones out to extend your anti-tank threat envelope, there’s a chance that at least 1 cyclone is going to be out of range.

This can be especially difficult in the event that you run into an army with fast tanks.

Chumbalaya

10-01-2009, 06:43 AM

Do you think that if I swap 3 of the assault cannons out for cyclones that I will have enough firepower to deal with tanks...(along with the TH and PF if I manage to close)

Not really, but you'll have a better chance than no chance at all.

I like the idea of Drop Podding termies, it gets them close quickly and makes the most of combi-weapons and counter attack, but they can be countered like any other DP army (toss in a cyclone and you can give then ranged firepower most DP armies lack).

Adding Predators, Speeders, and Dread will help you dish out some extra pain at range, and they are fairly cheap so you don't lose out on much.

Confuddled

10-01-2009, 07:35 PM

… they can be countered like any other DP army
True, assuming you go all-out with the pods (which, presumably, is the definition of a drop-podding army).

On the other hand, if you’ve got 1-3 pods of Terminators dropping into the other guy’s deployment zone whilst 20 foot-slogging, cyclone-toting Terminators march straight down the middle, your opponent’s options are considerably more limited.

1) Layered meat-shields can still be a problem, but that’s always going to be a problem for such a small, elite army. On the plus side, having a couple of pods allow you Terminators to make a head start on the speed-bumps.

2) When it comes to holding troops in reserve, however, having a couple of Terminator-deployed pods can help a great deal.

Combi-meltas might have a relatively short range, but you’re still looking at a 12”-18” no-go zone around each Terminator cluster.

Back them up with the fire from their 20 foot-slogging brethren and the other guy’s movement options are a lot more limited.

Adding Predators, Speeders, and Dread will help you dish out some extra pain at range, and they are fairly cheap so you don't lose out on much.

1) Much better-protected unless you run into lance weapons.
2) Land Raiders give you the weight to literally drive through any meatshields the other guy might throw up.
3) Unless a Raider is destroyed, you’re always going to be able to shoot at least one anti-tank gun.
4) Having a small squad camping out in a Land Raider keeps them safe from just about any conceivable outflanking/deep-striking unit.

It depends on what you need. Generally in such an elite army I'd welcome the chance to include some cheap and disposable units like Predators, Speeders, Wolves, and Dreads. Adding more point sinks to an army of point sinks doesn't seem that worthwhile to be honest.

A couple units of WG dropping in would be useful, especially if you have mobile support to back them up.

Denzark

10-03-2009, 08:32 AM

I was actually thinking of doing a foot slogging Wolf Guard termie army also....something like:

logan, the all-termie squads as well as the dreadnought are planned to go up and personal (hopeing to kill at least half the enemies heavy tanks in initial drop'n'melta action) while the grey unter squad with the cycle stays back and babysits my objective.
with 21 terminators and a dreadnought I think I'm not that badly outnumbered (especially since I'm usually going to dig into heavy melee turn2) as other termie lists who rely on expensive landraiders.

the assoult cannons should help me deal with the remaining tanks (they are still amazing. even more if logan switches squads mdigame and makes one of them tank hunter!) as well as all sorts of infantry.

Sons of Russ

10-03-2009, 08:19 PM

As a long time Space Wolf player using the Deathwing rules and Tactica; this army has been a long time in coming!

I wanted to see how hard I could make a foot slogging terminator army. I think the SW codex makes it possible to compete against many of the tourney builds out there

A solid core of footslogging terminators, advancing in a phalanx. This is a list where Logan is worth every point, all but guranteeing counter attack, and juicing up his 10x man bodyguard with Tank hunters, Preferred Enemy and Stubborn once they start to lose their numbers...

The rest of the army is carefully selected units that plug the gaps and weaknesses inherent in a all-terminator list.

Landspeeders pop Landraiders, or hide out to turbo boost and contest pbjectives that cant be readily contested by the foot sloggers.

All heavy weapons designed to waste the opponents transports and mobility early on to retake the initiative.

If I can force them to footslog, I have the advantage.

Against static gunline, deploy in refused flank, all units can move and fire at full capacity. Use cover and RB's to block LOS to diagonal fire and overwhelm one flank of the enemy line while the other has little/ no targets.

It depends on what you need. Generally in such an elite army I'd welcome the chance to include some cheap and disposable units like Predators, Speeders, Wolves, and Dreads. Adding more point sinks to an army of point sinks doesn't seem that worthwhile to be honest..

Point!

That being said, I suspect its more a difference of philosophy – what do you expect to see across the table from you?

1) The way I see it, having cheap, disposable units is only really an issue if/when VP are a factor – the trouble with cheap, disposable units is that, well, they’re relatively easy to dispose of.

As such, I’d expect my opponent to plan accordingly – I’d expect him to have some means of dealing with multiple Chimeras/Rhinos/Trukks/skimmer transports in his army list. Assault cannon, autocannon in various configurations, deffguns and the like.

Guess what’s going to zero in on all those light/medium Predator, Speeders and Dreads? ;)

Once you bring AV14 into play, however, all those S6/S7/S8 guns are going to patter off your heavy armour (or Terminator suits) like a gentle spring rain – it doesn’t help that the most effective guns for killing AV14 are ALSO the guns that you’d want to use on Terminators.

In the meantime, you’d also have enough foot-sloggers (10 Terminators take up a LOT of space, especially at maximum separation) to keep the other guy’s pesky melta-weapons at arm’s length.

I’d agree, however, that the single biggest argument against taking a few big point sinks (3+ terminator units, 1-2 Land Raiders) as opposed to spreading out your firepower would be the popularity of Tau/Eldar/Dark Eldar armies (armies that scoff at AV14) in your neck of the woods.

Lerra

10-04-2009, 10:55 PM

it doesn’t help that the most effective guns for killing AV14 are ALSO the guns that you’d want to use on Terminators.

While this is true, anti-infantry and massed low strength guns can also do a number on terminators. I also play Deathwing, and on a point-by-point basis, I'm more afraid of massed FRFSRF guardsmen than most anti-tank shooting platforms.

I’m usually more worried about Ork shootas than Guard lasrifles, though.

However, the kicker here is range.

By the time lasrifles really come into play, well, the game is pretty much over...(well, ok, more like turn 4 , but definitely mid/late game.)

For the first couple of turns, however, the only fire I’m going to be receiving would be from anti-tank weapons in the 36”-48” envelope (the exception being troops deploying out of drop pods). At that range, I’d expect to see a lot more autocannon, multilasers, deffguns and missile launchers than lascannon.

And seeing as how the odds of actually inflicting significant damage on Terminators or Land Raiders with low-volume/high-AP weapons are fairly, well, low, what else should I shoot at?
;)

TSINI

10-05-2009, 07:44 PM

Maybe I can help by pointing out what I would take to counter your wolf guard armies.

as an IG player, i would bring (to a competitive game not a friendly)

vanquisher, for the few landraiders, executioners to place 3 plasma blasts down on slow footslogging termys, and medusas to blast ordinance holes in termys.

masses of infantry would fill in the points and FO chart, possibly backed up with a lascannon squad for anti-tank help.

when it comes to MEQ of anykind, I always load up on the AP1 and 2 weapons.

so my question to you is, if I were to take this, how would you modify your force to counter it? its a combo of battle tanks (so you need some good Anti armour) and horde infantry so you need to get your termys into assault early on in thegame to start clawing through the numbers.

(I have a small space wolves army and am actually very interested in your thread, I havent seen the new codex yet though, might have to invest soon)

Confuddled

10-05-2009, 08:27 PM

Its gonna be a bit of a slog, true.

That being said:

1) A squad or three of podding Terminators would be helpful - they’re there to:
a) Attempt an early kill on the key tanks.
MAYBE add a cyclone to the squad in case of a bad (backwards) scatter and/or really dense infantry screens to keep the pods outside of prime melta range.

b) Draw fire from the Guardsmen, and hopefully tempt the Guard player into a couple of friendly-fire incidents.

c) MAYBE have the drop pod generate cover saves for the units behind – depends on just how dense the Guard infantry screen is.

2) A Raider or two to stand off and:

a) Help keep the Terminators safe from Medusa/Demolisher blasts, along with any incidental sniping.

Granted, its risky, but Guard armies have the volume of fire AND enough spare hulls to generate cover saves that I just can’t afford to zoom around the midfield trading shots.

Incidentally, with regard to a Guard list, I’d actually go with Demolishers with plasma cannon sponsons and Hydras. Maybe a Medusa or two. Add Chimeras and about 70 (1 infantry platoon, 2 squads of Veterans) infantry models, with a scattering of autocannon and meltas.