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Mini Pile - to 9 Pile Questions

hey there, its the rookie again with some questions. We are following along with Smartworks and I just wanted to clarify a few loose ends that I can't seem to find on the DVDS. We will begin mini-pile later this week and I want to make sure I am prepared.

1) is there an average time frame on that? still around 10 minutes per session?
2) The next progression if 9-pile. Are you to use pressure through that whole process and with each command?
a. Again what is the time frame on that?
b. Also when do you use start using “Back” (after he is getting it on fetch). The video starts with using it during the en route retrieve and then he uses it as the command.
c. Also do you use dead bird at that same time before?
d. The whole timing issue is VERY vague and VERY confusing for a rookie like myself so I apologize for asking the same question. But its better for me to have some understanding of the norm. Cobb picks up on these things very quickly.
3) Is the next step after this (LONG WAYS OUT BUT) pattern blinds?

1. Your session time will stay pretty much the same--10-15 min is plenty
2. You will not need to use pressure on every send in this pile work--use it sparingly and if the dog balks. You just have to make the decision on the pressure and when to use it. Again the same on the time spent on any one session. I would transfer to back as per the video--it begins during en route force. You can start going to back instead of fetch, work it in slowly to avoid confusion. I would not begin using dead bird for the cue until FTP--that is just the way I've done it.
3. You will go to force to pile after this initial pile work has been completed. Do you initial pile work (what you are calling mini pile) first. After that is solid and the repsonses are there you transfer to the larger pile that consists of 9 bumpers. It doesnt make a hill of beans how many bumpers are in the pile just so you know. This is your pile you will force to (FTP). Leave it in the same place every day--start just a few feet away and over time gradually move farther away until you reach 80-100 yds from the pile. You want the dog to show that it remembers the pile and show a desire to get there--that is where the force comes in. It may not be a bad idea for you to get some help with all of this so you can get it right.

I stopped using pressure, nick on collar, after the first few sesions of ftp (9 pile). I only use it when I get a refusal, but few and far between. As for changing of the terms you have to teach the dog the new term. This is accomplished by sending the dog with old term and then saying the new term, normally doesn't take to long for them to pick it up.

Hopefully Evan will be along to answer the questions directly related to his book/video, but will try to help...

Originally Posted by rspringer

hey there, its the rookie again with some questions. We are following along with Smartworks and I just wanted to clarify a few loose ends that I can't seem to find on the DVDS. We will begin mini-pile later this week and I want to make sure I am prepared.

1) is there an average time frame on that? still around 10 minutes per session?

Most of your training sessions will be in the 10-15 minute time frame, from here on out.

2) The next progression if 9-pile. Are you to use pressure through that whole process and with each command?
a. Again what is the time frame on that?
b. Also when do you use start using “Back” (after he is getting it on fetch). The video starts with using it during the en route retrieve and then he uses it as the command.
c. Also do you use dead bird at that same time before?
d. The whole timing issue is VERY vague and VERY confusing for a rookie like myself so I apologize for asking the same question. But its better for me to have some understanding of the norm. Cobb picks up on these things very quickly.

I also had Evan's books when I just started out, I also had Mike Lardy's manuals. I found that while Evan's was a little more reader friendly for the newbie, it also left holes where he assumed you knew what would happen OR assumed that it would go smoothly with your dog and you could move on. Of course this is not the case. I found that I got the most out of both books if, the night before I trained, I read BOTH manuals. Between the two of them they gave me the information I needed. Both books follow the same basic progression so they compliment each other just fine.
The only question I can weigh in on is "c" -- use of "dead bird." I learned with my first dog that I introduced this cue way too early. All of the yardwork and force the dogs experience is stressful, and if you introduce the term "dead bird" early on they quickly associate that with anxiety and you can get some funny behaviors later on. I'm not saying avoid it, I'm saying wait until you have put together MARKS and BLINDS during blind drills & pattern blinds to introduce the cue "dead bird." By then the dog should be running to known destinations in yardwork with confidence. Before this, use the word SIT to mean sit straight and look straight ahead, rather than "dead bird." JMO

3) Is the next step after this (LONG WAYS OUT BUT) pattern blinds?

Evan teaches a series of small pattern blinds before he gets into casting/single T. Lardy doesn't do this (you are all the way through double T before any pattern blinds are introduced). So the answer might be yes, according to Evan.
Best of luck,

hey there, it’s the rookie again with some questions. We are following along with Smartwork and I just wanted to clarify a few loose ends that I can't seem to find on the DVDS. We will begin mini-pile later this week and I want to make sure I am prepared.

1) is there an average time frame on that? still around 10 minutes per session?

Yes, generally speaking. Avoid formulas, especially those that dictate how much time or how many days a given dog needs to do something to be “done”. Train the dog you’re training.

Originally Posted by rspringer

2) The next progression if 9-(bumper) pile. Are you to use pressure through that whole process and with each command?

No, but how often you force is dog-to-dog. There are several important things going on during this drill, as the DVD states. All aspects of force fetch are assembled with your fundamental obedience tasks. In addition you cannot overlook the pressure conditioning that should be finessed here. That means you must force often enough, and with sufficient pressure to condition your dog to be stable and reliable under duress. That requires you to learn to read your dog. Don't constantly force, or at too high a level either. Just understand what your goals are as they are spelled out in the material

b. Also when do you use start using “Back” (after he is getting it on fetch). The video starts with using it during the en route retrieve and then he uses it as the command.

That’s because at that point you have established the ‘going’ as commanded response in association with applied pressure, so accepting a verbal command change is usually seamless. Again, feel this out and read your dog.

Originally Posted by rspringer

c. Also do you use dead bird at that same time before?

As soon as you begin training on pile work begin to insert that cue. It takes time for dogs to develop expectations associated with cues, so be consistent, and be patient.

Originally Posted by rspringer

d. The whole timing issue is VERY vague and VERY confusing for a rookie like myself so I apologize for asking the same question. But it’s better for me to have some understanding of the norm. Cobb picks up on these things very quickly.

As always, you can contact me anytime with whatever you aren’t clear about. The material is there, but when you’re new you don’t always just instantly grasp it.

Originally Posted by rspringer

3) Is the next step after this (LONG WAYS OUT BUT) pattern blinds?

Yes. But as Anney stated, we begin with very short easy ones, and progress sequentially into longer ones over time. Often by the time you’re solid on pile work and doing 3-handed casting & Mini-T your pattern blinds will have extended to well over 100 yards. It all grows together.

Are you using the books as well as DVD’s?

Evan

Last edited by Evan; 10-03-2012 at 04:04 PM.

"Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do under-whelms him, not overwhelms him." ~ Evan Graham“People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.”

Guys and Evan, thanks for the information. I think that helped out a lot. I totally get the time frame but since I have never done it I guess my question is do these items takes 5 days usally, 10 days, 15 etc, and I know that is hard. But, to have a base line or average would help me have some sort of idea as to the length.

Evan, I do not have the books, only the DVDs and you are correct its hard for my first time to understand some of those items but having you help is tremendous. HairyDawg has also been helping a lot via email!

"Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do under-whelms him, not overwhelms him." ~ Evan Graham“People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.”

Thanks Evan. We started fetch no fetch tonight and it went very well. I have now watched the mini-pile section at least 5 times with notes. So, I hope to start that either this weekend or early next week depending on how the next few fetch no fetch sessions go. ! Thanks,