\
My friend who read "Dangerous In Diamonds" just recently maintains that Castleford is a villain and I have never understood why she would think that. His drinking and whoring hurts only himself. Unlike many rakes he doesn't go after virgins and he isn't one of those borderline rapist romance heroes either. But my friend says his seduction of Daphne is villainous. I don't see it. Maybe because I have read so much worse in "seduction techniques" when the hero is trying to get the heroine into bed. Sure, Castleford is sly and manipulative but those traits are not enough to make someone a villain IMO.

I have read this book twice. Once because I read a review here and saw it lauded on the board. And again after reading the first three before it.

I guess I've read worse, too. And, having seen Daphne in the other books, defending her friends, I can believe that, if she REALLY wanted to ditch him, she could have confided in her friends, who would have made him go away.

HE doesn't know her secret. He's not using that particular secret (trying not to spoiler this <g>) against her. He always knows that, if she complains to their mutual friends, he'll probably get crap for it, and have to give up.

Truly, though, I would not recommend reading this book to anyone who hadn't read the first 3. It is definitely not a read-alone.

And, I have to say that the destroying of the bed is one of the better bromance scenes I've read.

Judy

Oh, yes, this is definitely not a book you should read as a stand-alone, not with all the other characters from the other books showing up again - plus you would miss all the outrageous behavior of Castleford in the previous books, especially the first one, hehe.

I found some of the scenes between Daphne and Castleford very funny - like when she finds out that he is writing a book and she is all impressed. And then he tells her that he is penning an "expert" guide to the brothels of London - which he sees as a public service: saving his randy fellow men from inferior whores, lol.

And no, Daphne was no wilting flower. She was attracted to Castleford and that's why she allowed his advances. Had she been repulsed you betcha he wouldn't have gotten anywhere with her.

I found some of the scenes between Daphne and Castleford very funny - like when she finds out that he is writing a book and she is all impressed. And then he tells her that he is penning an "expert" guide to the brothels of London - which he sees as a public service: saving his randy fellow men from inferior whores, lol.

And no, Daphne was no wilting flower. She was attracted to Castleford and that's why she allowed his advances. Had she been repulsed you betcha he wouldn't have gotten anywhere with her.

And, then, of course, when Castleford continues to try and write his tome, he feels like he's a vicar casting judgment because he no longer is totally into it. I don't know. Some of the clues to his change are subtle, and this is one of them. I liked the book.

The one that I can remember without taking time to really think about it is Johnny from One Summer by Karen Robards. I know that Anne Stuart's books usually had anti-heroes but I don't remember them reforming by the end of her books._________________Linnae
Life Begins After Coffee

The one that I can remember without taking time to really think about it is Johnny from One Summer by Karen Robards. I know that Anne Stuart's books usually had anti-heroes but I don't remember them reforming by the end of her books.

I don't consider Johnny reformed - just a survivor who'd been victimized. He's an abused kid who winds up railroaded and wrongfully convicted of murder and is raped in prison. He gets out 10 years later and is basically stuck in the town that screwed him over and still treats him like dirt. If he didn't have a chip on his shoulder he wouldn't be human. I liked that he was able to get something out of his time in prison but didn't consider that reformation, just taking advantage of an opportunity during unjust circumstances. I really liked that he had no intention of remaining in that town when the book is over._________________"My safe word is monkey"

I have to agree with Lillian and others about Castleford. It's not that I think he's particularly bad; I just didn't believe in his reformation.

I thought that Liz Carlyle did a good job with Nash in Never Lie to a Lady. In the first three or four chapters, I asked myself how in the world she was going to change my view of Nash. But by the end, I totally believed his reformation.

It's the same way with Kinsale's book My Sweet Folly. The hero was tough to believe in at first, but he won me over eventually.

Probably the ultimate worst hero to have the best reform is The Dedicated Villain. Rolly in his book after previous books being the villain starts off with being this anti-hero who is really interested in scheming and kind of the Han Solo of ok I'll save the world if I have to attitude. But the turn around is swoon worthy.

Laura Kinsale's Flowers From the Storm. The beginning I expected to hate the hero but ended up just loving him to pieces._________________Romance my favorite reading pastime.

So is Kleypas' from Devil in Winter but he's starting to look like a juvenile delinquent in comparison to these guys.

.

Have to agree with this. I didn't find Sebastian from Devil in Winter a particularly bad or villainous hero at all. I like my heroes a bit more dark and tortured. Even Derek Craven from Dreaming of You surpassed Sebastian IMO.

I'm doubting their hearts were much involved. He appealed to their libidinous desires and they got what he promised. From what I recall he didn't offer more and he didn't pressure, coerce or stalk women into capitulating. He is quite honest about his desires and intentions. He's physically beautiful, sensual, charming and attentive which is what makes him a temptation but being deliberately tempting is not the same as being ruthless. It might not be fulfilling or be hollow in the long run for the women and him but he wasn't making false promises. Similarly even though his seduction of the heroine is deliberate she knows this is all it is (though not the true reason) and she is still greatly tempted.

OK, I haven't read this book but if it's not one of those wallpaper historicals populated with 21st characters, the sort of seduction described sounds pretty ruthless in and of itself. Valmont from DANGEROUS LIAISONS was an out and out villain because he exploited society's repression of female desire for his own pleasures - not caring and even delighting in the consequences for those women he literally ruined. Just because they consented doesn't mean that it wasn't exploitation and coercion albeit of a different sort. And doing something with the purpose of ruining someone else, even if you tempted them into colluding with it, is pretty damn villainous.

PWNN wrote:

My candidate for best written reformed villain - how "reformed" is up for debate though I do believe in the HEA - Edith Layton's marvelous Duke of Torquay in The Duke's Wager. Now this is a true anti-hero that played ruthless hard ball. He gets the heroine fired believing her to be a part of the "game" but even when he realizes she's not he doesn't offer to help but rather pursues and hounds her - hoping she'll turn to him as a last resort and become his mistress. He not only plays on her desires but her financial and social weaknesses. He's a very wicked man.

I completely agree. The only thing that made it palatable is just how emotionally strong the heroine is - otherwise, it would have just been unreadable. However, what's amazing is that Layton really makes you feel the spiritual sickness of the life of a true "rake"- and makes you understand why he both torments and also falls for the heroine. I don't don't think THE DUKE'S WAGER is really all that romantic either - I see it as more of a fascinating character study to be honest. Still, he's up there with Sebastian from TO HAVE AND TO HOLD in terms of a hero who is so incredibly balanced between darkness and redemption that he could have easily gone the other way.

Another recommendation is Freddie from Balogh's DANCING WITH CLARA which is probably the most realistic portrayal and reformation of a rake that I've ever read in romance. Amazing book which I've reread so many times yet am always in tears by the end.

Sebastien from DEVIL IN WINTER and Castleford are rather meh for me to be honest as I can hardly remember them. And I agree with PWNN that Johnny from ONE SUMMER is in no way a "bad boy" - he's about as much as a bad boy as Patrick Swayze's character in DIRTY DANCING..._________________"Socialism to help sick people - bad.
Socialism to help billionaires - good."

The Papers of Henry Laurens: October 10, 1771 to April 19, 1773 - Google Books Result
books.google.com/books?isbn=0872493857...Henry Laurens, Philip May Hamer, George C. Rogers, Jr. - 1989 - Biography & Autobiography - 784 pages
The Anecdote of General Scott, tho a Severe ill natur'd Performance of some revengeful Pen, is a strong ... John Scott (1725-1775) had visited SC in 1769. ... 6, 1770, he had married Lady Mary Hay, daughter of the Earl of Erroll, the ... in flagrante delicto at Barnet near London. General Scott divorced her on Dec. 18, 1771.

I was just reading Sutherland: A Fighting Clan by Malcolm Sutherland (Avon
Books, London, first pub. 1996), in which the author mentions Capt. James
Sutherland, 5th Lord Duffus, "who can only be described as a scallywag (see
footnote 140)." The author goes on to say "he died a bachelor and the Duffus title passed, not without dispute, to his cousin, Sir Benjamin Sutherland Dunbar of Hempriggs."

James, 5th Lord Duffus, born 8 June 1747 at Skibo, was the eldest son of
Capt. Eric(k) Sutherland of Duffus, by his wife and cousin, Elizabeth,
daughter of Sir James Dunbar (lst Bart.) (formerly Sutherland). The title and
dignity of Lord Duffus were restored to James by Act of Parliament on 25 May 1826, his grandfather having been attainted after the 1715 Jacobite uprising.
James served first in the 68th Foot, which was in Jersey in 1763 and in
Antigua in 1765 to 1767. He appears in the AL as "Ja". His Ensigncy was taken over in April 1767 and he was placed on half-pay until Augtust 1768. The 26th and 36th Regiments of Foot served in America. McGregor says James retired on 27 January 1772 and in AL 1772-1826 he is listed as being on English half-pay in the 106th Foot. At one time James was the lessee of Barrogill Castle (now the Castle of Mey in the possession of Queen Elizabeth, the Queen Mother).
The lease expired in 1786. Between 1792 and 1799 James was the factor of the Earldom and Bishopric Estates in Orkney and a tenant of the Bu of Burray. He was regarded by the Orcadians as tyrannical and oppressive and he forced tenants of the Estate to build dykes for him at the Bu of Burray.

Although he eloped with Mary (nee Hay, daughter of James, Earl of Errol),
wife of General John Scott of Balcomie, who divorced her in 1771, James
abandoned her and died unmarried, at Harley Street, London on 30 January
1827. He was buried in Marlyebone Church on 7 February 1827.

General Scott was the Colonel of James's regiment. He was a celebrated
gambler whose luck was so phenomenal that "as rich as Scott" became a
by-word. It is said that Scott won the hand of his first wife, Lady Mary, in
settlement of a gambling debt owing to him by her father, the Earl of Errol.
A graphic description of Lady Mary's elopement is given on the reverse of a
letter dated Edinburgh 12 October 1771 from Gregory Grant to James Grant of Grant (SRO: GD248/50/2/50). "Captain Sutherland of Duffus has been at his cousin and very best friend, General Scott's house in Fife some days (at the) latter end of last month and, without any previous particular suspicion,
eloped with Lady Mary Scott on Wednesday 2nd of this month at 3 o'clock in
the morning. They passed here about 10 o'clock that forenoon and slept in the same bed for 3 or 4 hours at Durham that night. The General, with some
gentlemen of the Law etc., set out from hence at 10 o'clock the same night .
. . The poor unfortunate infatuated Lady with her wretched gallant most
foolishly stopt on Friday's night within 10 miles of London, at Barnet, where
the General came up with them before midnight . . . The General got into
their bedroom so as to see the Captain in his shirt who, without a rag on
him, jumped out of the window and has not been heard of since." The General and his wife had been married only since November 1770. The Process of Divorce is dated 18 December 1771.

In his Will James acknowledged 10 natural children (CSSS Newsletter, December
1985), one of whom appears to have been Margaret, daughter of Anne Dunnet of
Orkney (CSSS Newsletter, December 1984). However, according to Orkney
tradition James may have had as many as 60 illegitimate children. It is said
that the factor's stick and coat at the farmhouse door was a sign to the
farmer that he had better keep out of his own house.

In his old age, James was reputedly haunted by the prospect that
half-brothers and sisters might marry each other in ignorance of their
relationship (Private Correspondence: W.P.L. Thomson). Although referred to
as Lieutenant James Sutherland, it is probably James, Lord Duffus who
received a civil pension of 100 pounds per annum (as did his father, Erick
from 29 April 1769 until at least the second quarter of 1802 (Le Livre Rouge
-- Pensions in England, Scotland and Ireland by P.G. McCallum (1810),
Dodsley's Annual Register (1801) and PRO: T36/10). It is likely that Cadet
Eric of the Madras Infantry was one of the illegitimate sons.

So, Barbara, your ancestor is the progenitor of most of the Sutherlands in
Orkney!

--Lois Sutherland Wark
Las Cruces, New Mexico

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Duffus
The title Lord Duffus was created by Charles II in the Peerage of Scotland on 8 December 1650 for Alexander Sutherland. He was a descendant of the 4th Earl of Sutherland, who fell in battle in 1333. The title is now extinct, although there may be male-line Sutherlands descended from earlier lairds of Duffus.

In 1734, the 3rd Lord was attainted and the lordship was forfeited. His son Eric tried but failed to get a reverse of the attainder. His son James Sutherland of Duffus got the attainder reversed, and was restored to the lordship as 4th (titular 5th) Lord Duffus on 25 May 1826. The last two Lords Duffus were also Baronets, of Hempriggs in the County of Caithness (3rd and 4th). The lordship became extinct on the death of the 6th (titular 7th) Lord Duffus on 28 August 1875.
Contents
[hide]

The two branches of Clan Sutherland most closely related to the Sutherland Earls, or Clan Chiefs, were the Lairds (and later Lords) of Duffus and the Lairds of Forse. The Duffus Lairds descended from Nicholas (or Nichol) Sutherland, only brother of William de Moravia, 5th Earl of Sutherland (d. 1370), and younger son of the 4th Earl. The other surviving branch, the Forse Lairds, stem from Kenneth Sutherland, only brother of Robert de Moravia, 6th Earl of Sutherland (d. 1427). Duffus is outside the country of Sutherland. So also is Forse, which is in Caithness.
[edit] Lords Duffus (1650)

Alexander Sutherland, 1st Lord Duffus (d. 1674)
James Sutherland, 2nd Lord Duffus (d. 1705) who had issue four sons (Kenneth, 3rd Lord, Sir James Dunbar, 1st Baronet and two others) and one daughter.
Kenneth Sutherland, 3rd Lord Duffus (d. 1734) (attainted and forfeit 1734) for his part in the 1715 uprising. He fled to Sweden, where he married a Swedish lady, Christina Sioblade, by whom he had:
Eric Sutherland, 4th Lord Duffus (1710-1768) (not restored, but counted), married his first cousin Elizabeth, third daughter of Sir James Dunbar of Hempriggs, 1st Baronet by his wife Elizabeth Dunbar, daughter and heiress of Sir William Dunbar of Hempriggs, Baronet.[1] They were parents of the 5th Lord Duffus, another son (who died issueless), and three daughters including an eldest daughter Elizabeth, wife firstly of Captain Alexander Sinclair, son of Sir William Sinclair of Keiss; secondly Charles Sinclair of Olrig (by whom one son and one daughter) and thirdly, in 1772, the Reverend James Rudd, rector in Yorkshire.[2]
James Sutherland, 5th Lord Duffus (1747-1827) (restored 1826), who died unmarried. He eloped in December 1771 with the seventeen-year-old Lady Mary Hay, the daughter of the Earl of Enroll, Hereditary Lord High Constable of Scotland, and the wife of Major-General John Scott; she was divorced by her husband, Sutherland's colonel at the time. He abandoned her, never married, and recognized ten illegitimate children in his will. However, he is said to have at least sixty illegitimate children.[3] The barony was claimed by the nearest heir male (and also by the 5th Lord's nephew):
Benjamin Dunbar, 6th Lord Duffus, 3rd Baronet of Hemprigss (1761-1843), grandson of Sir James Sutherland-Dunbar of the 5th Lord Duffus[4] This man, together with his son, unsuccessfully petitioned the House of Lords in 1838 to be granted the title and the seat in the House of Lords, but the petition was not acted upon. (A challenge was mounted by the Rev. Eric Rudd, apparently the sole surviving nephew of the late 5th Lord.[5] He was the son of Elizabeth Sutherland by her third husband Rev. James Rudd (d. 23 February 1827, aged 83)[6] He was succeeded de facto by his son:
George Sutherland Dunbar, 7th Lord Duffus (1799-1875) (extinct 1875) used the title of 7th Lord Duffus, but was also known as Sir George Dunbar of Hempriggs, 4th Baronet.[7]

[edit] See also

Earl of Sutherland
Dunbar Baronets

[edit] Notes

Information on the Lords Duffus was obtained in part from The Peerage which is incomplete, from the Sutherland history (below), and from Elinor Glyn (1955), a memoir by her grandson Anthony Glyn. Glyn and her sister Lucy, Lady Duff-Gordon were born Sutherlands, descended from David Sutherland, Laird of Cambusavie, allegedly a son of Alexander Sutherland, a younger brother of the Jacobite 3rd Lord Duffus, who is described in The Scots Peerage as having died without issue. The fact that the 6th Lord Duffus inherited in 1827 over the now Canadian Sutherlands who sold their estates in the 1770s to the Earl of Sutherland probably means that the relationship was more distant, or if the same, that the Laid of Cambusavie was illegitimate.
[edit] References

^ The Scots Peerage. Also see "The Lost Lordship of Duffus"
^ A Rev. Eric Rudd, son of Elizabeth Sutherland by her third marriage, unsuccessfully claimed the lordship of Duffus around 1838. The son of Elizabeth Sutherland by her second husband Charles Sinclair died in 1772, and there were also three daughters (per The Scots Peerage) of whom Finella Sinclair, later Mrs Cullen, was living in 1772, when she inherited an estate from her deceased brother. These daughters of course would fall behind their half-brother Rev. Eric Rudd in succession to heirs whatsoever. The second daughter of Eric, de jure 4th Lord Duffus, was Charlotte, mother of the 12th Earl of Caithness Thepeerage.com lists Charlotte as elder, but The Scots Peerage states that she was the middle daughter.
^ "Re: [SUT] Capt. James SUTHERLAND" SCT-SUTHERLAND-L Archives, 17 February 2002, quoting a story from Sutherland: A Fighting Clan by Malcolm Sutherland (Avon Books, London, first pub. 1996). The author describes James as "a scallywag (see footnote 140)." [pp. 174-175] The author goes on to say "he died a bachelor and the Duffus title passed, not without dispute, to his cousin, Sir Benjamin Sutherland Dunbar of Hempriggs." The discrepancy between Anthony Glyn's romantic version of an unmarried couple living together and producing ten children together and this version is immense.
^ Anthony Glyn (1955) mistakenly says that the 6th Lord Duffus was son of the sister of the 3rd Lord Duffus; he was in fact grandson of the younger brother of the 3rd Lord.
^ 'House of Lords Journal Volume 64: 15 May 1832', Journal of the House of Lords: volume 64: 1831-1832 "Duffus Peerage, E. Rudd's Petition respecting", pp. 208-210. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=19313 Date accessed: 15 March 2009.
^ The Gentleman's magazine, Google Books, Retrieved 15 March 2009.
^ One source "The Lost Lordship of Duffus" claims that due to the Rudd challenge, the 7th Lord never used the title, and chose to be known as a baronet. This however is contradicted by thepeerage entry on the 7th Lord.

Shinjinee
View profile
More options Mar 15 2009, 10:27 am
I was reading Anthony Glyn (a baronet)'s memoirs of his maternal
grandmother Elinor Glyn (yes, she of the tiger skin!). Lots of
aristocratic connections there - her lovers included Lord Alistair
Innes-Ker (yr brother of the duke of Roxburghe who married May Goelet
and who were grandparents of the present duke) and Lord Curzon (the
very superior person). What was interesting was his mention of the
family legends about the patrilineal ancestry of his grandmother and
great-aunt Lucy Duff-Gordon, nee Sutherland.

Glyn claimed that the family traces its line back to a Laird who was
forced to sell his lands in the 1700s. Nothing surprising there. That
the Laird was apparently son of a younger son of a Lord Duffus, but
the Scots Peerage has him dying unmarried. Isn't the Scots Peerage
generally fairly accurate on these points? I would assume that if he
was a son of a yr son of Lord Duffus that he was illegitimate or the
marriage was not quite up to the mark.

Glyn then mentioned the romantic story of James 4th or 5th Lord Duffus
(5th if we count his father Eric) who eloped with the newly married
Lady Mary Scott, wife of General John Scott of Balgonie. He left ten
natural children with his mistress/ lover who were unable to inherit
naturally. Which led to the Dunbar of Hemprigg family (patrilineally
Sutherland at that point) claiming the lordship in 1827 and a counter-
claim by the 4th/5th Lord's nephew Rev Eric Rudd.. a petition before
the House of Lords and a counter-petition by Rudd in 1838. The
lordship of Duffus is believed extinct since 1875 (the last Sutherland
Dunbar baronet dying unmarried), but there may be collateral
Sutherlands in the Duffus family.. which is where Elinor Glyn and Lucy
Duff-Gordon's father may come in. (He died in 1864).

After checking out this interesting family - Sutherland of Duffus -- I
thought that the name of John Scott of Balcomie sounded familiar. Aha!
Three daughters - two married to eldest sons of peers, and one to a
rising politician. Familiar? No less than Henrietta Scott, wife of the
4th Duke of Portland; Lucy Scott, first wife of Lord Doune, later 10th
Earl of Moray; and Joan Scott, Viscountess Canning. But their mother
wasn't Lady Mary Hay but Margaret Dundas, with impeccable Scottish
establishment connections.

So where is Lady Mary Hay? A little digging and I got the whole sad
story. Wife of James Hay, 15th Earl of Erroll by his first wife (who
remarried and had sons by his second wife). Married off in November
1770 to the rich General John Scott of Balcomie, who made his fortune
in India and via gambling, in lieu of a gambling debt owed by her
father - at the age of 16. The stuff of historical romances... And
unfortunately, she fell for a captain in the regiment of which her
husband was colonel - one Captain James Sutherland of Duffus of the
24th Foot XII. They ran off in December 1771, spent two-three nights
together, were caught in flagrante delicto by the chasing husband (the
seducer jumped out of the window nearly naked), and the silly lady was
abandoned.

The husband promptly divorced her, and apparently equally promptly
remarried, and left three daughters. He died 1775 and left an
interesting will requiring his daughters's husbands to take the name
Scott in addition to their own if they wanted to enjoy the estates.

I was just reading Sutherland: A Fighting Clan by Malcolm Sutherland
(Avon
Books, London, first pub. 1996), in which the author mentions Capt.
James
Sutherland, 5th Lord Duffus, "who can only be described as a scallywag
(see
footnote 140)." The author goes on to say "he died a bachelor and the
Duffus
title passed, not without dispute, to his cousin, Sir Benjamin
Sutherland
Dunbar of Hempriggs."

James, 5th Lord Duffus, born 8 June 1747 at Skibo, was the eldest son
of
Capt. Eric(k) Sutherland of Duffus, by his wife and cousin,
Elizabeth,
daughter of Sir James Dunbar (lst Bart.) (formerly Sutherland). The
title and
dignity o

The one that I can remember without taking time to really think about it is Johnny from One Summer by Karen Robards. I know that Anne Stuart's books usually had anti-heroes but I don't remember them reforming by the end of her books.

Yeah, I don't think the typical Anne Stuart "hero" really reforms at the end so much - it's more that he meets the one woman who will put up with him. Though I sure wish a lot of her heroines were stronger: Like the heroine of BLACK ICE - omg, what a moron that girl is!

St. Aubyn in "London's Perfect Scoundrel"? Rake/bad boy. He doesn't go to Parliament. He has no friends and makes fun of the ones he did have. He's mean to orphans. But, he's not a villain. He's self-centered and just doesn't GAS.

Judy

Boy, am I glad this thread popped up again and that you posted this book, Judy. Just recently I've been thinking about which book had the woman and the orphans, the disinterested nobleman, and the cellar scenes.
Thanks!

My candidate for best written reformed villain - how "reformed" is up for debate though I do believe in the HEA - Edith Layton's marvelous Duke of Torquay in The Duke's Wager. Now this is a true anti-hero that played ruthless hard ball. He gets the heroine fired believing her to be a part of the "game" but even when he realizes she's not he doesn't offer to help but rather pursues and hounds her - hoping she'll turn to him as a last resort and become his mistress. He not only plays on her desires but her financial and social weaknesses. He's a very wicked man.

Oh, what a marvelous book. I found a reasonably priced copy online, and stayed up very late last night (or early this morning) reading it. Thank you for the recommendation. Jason Edward Thomas, Duke of Torquay, is an unforgettable anti-hero. He was surprising and fascinating in all aspects - from his actions to his physically "slight" stature and his hoarse, whispery voice.

St. Aubyn in "London's Perfect Scoundrel"? Rake/bad boy. He doesn't go to Parliament. He has no friends and makes fun of the ones he did have. He's mean to orphans. But, he's not a villain. He's self-centered and just doesn't GAS.

Judy

Yes, exactly! I re-read this one this past weekend and enjoyed it all over again. Thanks!