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Yeah I've encountered a similar problem. My general strategy with my necros vs bash is to try and break through with the ball and use my speed to stay out of blitz range ... On D I just try to play stall the cage and hope for an opening, but it's hit or miss. Or try and get them to score and score myself quickly, which usually doesn't work with just speed but agi3.

Yes, the low Ag is a killer even with dodge. Must be a way of doing it but while the zombies are excellent fodder you only have to lose a couple on the pitch and suddenly the Ghouls and Wolves are a lot more vulnerable. Harassing the ball works well sometimes but others it just leads to overcommitment. That said I think I've only successfully stalled a full cage once or twice, even if there's been a few forced rolls along the way. Tricky, doubly so now I've got a rookie wolf and ghoul to manage. Perhaps more surgical blitzing is called for, with frenzy it's often possible to break things up a little.

Originally Posted by somanyrobots

...My thanks to NieA7 for a terrific match! Very enjoyable, and challenging throughout. The dice broke slightly in my favor, especially in clutch moments (the werewolf-handoff and Nek's spectacular failure), which makes it even more impressive on NieA7's part that I barely scraped out a draw. I suspected at the start of the season that Tier 1 would be more than a match for me, and it appears to be true :).

'twas frustrating to be denied at the end by that turnover machine star player (two turnovers, one a 2+ lonered and one a double skull lonered), but in all honesty my second drive had come more than a little unstuck, I was lucky the wight was even in a position to score. 5SPP between the rookies, but surviving Snoozer's dorfs will be a challenge, hopefully Grinn can put a dent in them.

Originally Posted by Everblue

It's only a three game season! If you play your TV appropriately then you'll get promoted and be back towards the top again, and only have had to play three games against weaker teams. If you don't get promoted then your argument is defeated!

TV difference isn't so bad usually, though a better selection of star players would be nice. Still, tackle and guard are the really vital skills and there's hardly any stars with those even in the full CRP. I guess it comes down to the teams that have great skills but so-so stats, average skills and stats, and great stats but so-so skills - the latter will always do better at high TV, the former at low.

The seconds of my stunty matchups this season was a lot closer than the first, anyway. My entire strategy was to hurt the flings, and in order to do that, I tried to make sure every zon was standing next to one at the end of my turn. Then, hope for a failed dodge which, I'm fairly sure, never actually happened. Anyway we succeeded in pushing them into a 3 by 3 square and I thought "man this is going to be awesome" and fireballed it. Two badly hurt wasn't bad I guess, but I was envisioning every single player dying in a fiery maelstrom. Kapouille, startled into life, threw his remaining upright fling right to the touchline. 0-1! I received the ball and trundled slowly up the line to score at the end of the first half. 1-1!

We received a touchback for the second half, and inched up the left, looking furtive. Kapouille placed every single fling in an unbroken conga-line-snake-thing around my ball carrier, but I was able to knock her free with some excessive chain-pushing. The side effect was I was now pretty stuck near the sideline. One failed block later and Kapouille had the chance to just shove my carrier off the pitch, and totally did. The ball, clearly a zon supported, scattered directly to his touchline. Ah Ha Ha. He tried to pick it up, but shoved it off the pitch again, right next to one of my isolated linewomen who was trying to have a quiet smoke away from the action. Flings crumbled like a delicious cake and we were able to see out the remainder of the half, scoring on T16. The one-turner couldn't happen because of my AMAZING KICKING PROWESS, so it finished 2-1 to heroic Jim. Surprisingly close!

It's only a three game season! If you play your TV appropriately then you'll get promoted and be back towards the top again, and only have had to play three games against weaker teams. If you don't get promoted then your argument is defeated!

And anyway - you haven't played me yet! My TV is only 200 less than yours I think.

Quite. Nullís argument lacked validity last time but is even weaker now with the new format. Teams can now quickly find their natural level after dropping out briefly like Nullís mob. Good coaches who reboot or veterans who join up will quickly blitz through the divisions through good use of inducements rather than have to spend nine months slogging through easy mismatches in coaching ability. TV is a non-factor.

Bahahahahaha. Real, reliable mechanical bonuses are a non-factor? Inducements are either not reliable (anything and everything except non-loner Stars) or not condusive to the long-term development of a team (either by eating SPP or encouraging unfamiliar plays). Just because you can still win with inducements doesn't make them any less of a shitty band-aid.

Dropping powerfully built teams down amongst the fresher ones isn't unfair? They're better at winning AND killing. There's a double penalty of losing a game (and thus not being put into an appropriate tier next season) and losing your players because they can be hurt more reliably.

I'm not concerned about being dropped a tier - I'm not the best of players. I do however feel bad about playing coaches who, because of the nature of the league, suffer a massive penalty to their chance to win just because I fucked up. It wasn't fun when I was on the recieving end of powerclombers, and even though my team isn't built like that I know it's not going to be fun for my opponents.

And none of this addresses the problem of some teams being decidedly balanced towards a short or long league, with perpetual leagues inevitably favouring the latter, so you create a glass ceiling. The new format has lowered that ceiling, but it's also made it so the shards of glass that fall from it stab the squishiest people first.

I mean, Wolves are potentially incredibly powerful killers, and their claws slice open high AV, so if you're playing against bash it's going to involve a lot of surgical lupine strikes.

Guard's a killer for that though - if you don't get the knockdown on the first hit and there's a lot of guard about it's often two against for the second. Coupled with tackle on the dorfs it gets pretty hairy (that's why lizardmen tend to be a bit easier to deal with despite the strength, with less guard they're easier to set up for a Necro-style strike). Or at least that's what I've found to date, probably need to play a better positional game.

I'm OK with the structure as it is at the moment, I actually quite like mixed TV games on either side of the equation.

Still, tackle and guard are the really vital skills and there's hardly any stars with those even in the full CRP. I guess it comes down to the teams that have great skills but so-so stats, average skills and stats, and great stats but so-so skills - the latter will always do better at high TV, the former at low.

But you can get tackle and guard with inducements. Quite easy to forget that. You also only really need 1 or 2 tacklers in your team. The threat of it is just as important as it's actual effect.

But anyway - everyone has their own opinion on mixed TV. I personally seem to see particularly fast teams such as lizards doing extremely well at low TV. Apologies for banging on about it, but the OCC champion last season (250 team league in its 15th season) was 1800 TV lizards, who got chopped down to 1300 TV during the season. They are second this season, just behind a 2700 TV chaos team.

Nullk a majority on the net will fully support your positions. They will also say you should nearly always receive, norse are only viable at low TV, caging is a good plan A, always take the strength etc etc. BB groupthink is an ass, and all these things are demonstrably false.

RPS alone provides ample contrary evidence. The Divisions have been dominated by finesse and hybrid teams with bash not winning a title since the opening dozen games of the LE era. Since then every single title has gone to an AV7 or stunty reliant team bar one High Elf triumph. No claw player has ever featured in a title winning team, and I don’t think there has even been a POMBer. Dwarf, Chaos and Orc teams have rarely even reached the top flight with just the occasional season here and there. Only Laneford’s Nurgle have had a regular presence at the top and they’ve been bouncing around more than chasing the title.

You struggle against these teams. That doesn’t mean they are broken. You are weak with inducements but they work fine for coaches who know what they are doing. You say you are not the strongest of coaches; are these not simply weaker areas in your game rather than issues with BB?

Why do you think I can regularly get results with inducements? I’m no better than these guys. Well okay, I’m clearly stronger than some but I’ve also been doing it against the RPS elite like Jol, ‘hands et al. I’ve had the best part of a decade since inducements were introduced learning how to take maximum benefit. As with everything in BB if you put the effort in to learn what does and doesn’t work for you you’ll find inducements are far from a shitty band-aid. The essence of BB is controlling space. The coach who better utilises his 88 TZs will win most games. Everything else is gravy.

Clearly they aren’t or they wouldn’t be getting relegated that far in the first place. As for returning teams we’ve always had that issue but it is far less of a problem with the new format with the quicker journey back up the tiers.

Far from a negative I’d say it is far better. There is less time for new coaches to form bad habits and commit to bad builds before getting taught the error of their ways. New coaches will learn the value of getting key role players like a wrackler while their team is still young and easy to build. And of course it helps avoid the phobia of TV gaps when you face the normal sort of disparity you get in any perpetual league from the outset. These weak high TV teams are mainly inefficient TV wise thus giving an easier introduction into the use of inducements before you reach the authentic big boys. Bottom line these teams are down with the rookies for a reason.

Hey folks, just thought id let you admins know i dont think me and INinga132, am pretty sure the deadlines past, we had arranged to play our match on tuesday but sadly I had to work unexpectedley late at work to cover a colleagues shift. sorry to be a nuisance :)

I had a longer post where I picked apart what you were saying (I'm sure people who joined the league for fun are happy to know that I'm a shit player with a poorly built team and that they should get used to a winners-only balancing system that ignores both team development AND ELO at the same time), but as I realised that as it was almost all as caustic as that in-parentheses remark I'm going to stop myself from posting any more of it.

Better, more experienced, players can go further with less, fine. That's not the whole story though.

I think I'm quitting at the end of the season. This is getting beyond silly and I should really be the change I want to see.

Well I don't want to dive in to this sort of exchange too deeply, but I'm always happy to take on constructive criticism, and I really don't want to see people getting frustrated with the divisions due to the new structure.

Does the new structure mean bigger TV differences are occurring through the divisions? Yes, particularly in the middle tiers. Does playing a few games with bigger TV differences break the divisions? I'm not so sure. Admittedly, I've been the one giving away inducements to my opponents so far, so it's a difficult position to be in.

Have other people found it really difficult using inducements against teams 300-400TV higher than themselves, or do they enjoy the challenge? Personally, I lean on the 'it's part of the fun of the game' side. But I can understand some people feeling frustrated.

(Also, a quick reminder - you don't always have to hire star players - you can hire a journeyman and give him block or tackle or *something else* to help against the opposition - something I did a lot when playing as norse, who get great journeymen, so you can have a block/tackle player for 120k)

I'm sure people who joined the league for fun are happy to know that I'm a shit player with a poorly built team

Well as the guy playing you next, I'm glad to hear it :)

Since the restructure my performance has suffered badly. Pre-restructure my stats were 4 losses, 5 draws, 3 wins, with all but one loss in the first season and a steady trickle of promotions thereafter. After the restructure I took a pounding from a higher TV team which cost me two key players, and my stats became 4 losses, 4 draws, 0 wins. Now clearly there may be a number of factors here, so I'm not suggesting my plummeting performance is solely due to the new structure, but coincidence or not I'm finding I'm having a much harder time post-restructure. However, that also presumably means others are winning more.

Thinking back to when we were voting on the rejig, I commented that the system was going to produce more inequality in the teams and make newer teams more likely to lose, and new coaches less likely to stick around. I stick by the former, but I couldn't say whether it's affecting the overall league population.

This isn't meant to be a complaint about my league position, or a damning statement of the new structure, and certainly not an 'I told you so', but a record of my experience pre/post change. I might have lost my two veteran Tomb Guardians in the same game regardless, which appears to have been the catalyst of my downfall, but maybe my fall would have had more cushioning with a lower amount of more experienced teams dropping down with me.

I'd like to withdraw from the league and maybe reroll a new team next season or the one after.

I haven't enjoyed a game in a while and its becoming more of an unpleasant chore than something I look forward to.

Thanks

That looked like a rough experience yesterday (first turn kill, misfiring Wizard, failed dodge followed by a pickup by an opposing player), and from what you told me it was not the first time recently. I have to admit that I was looking forward to this return match (our teams already had a game a few seasons ago which resulted in a demotion for my Orcs) but this was just ... not the way games should be.