Below are my comments on the rules posted to the wiki last week. I will post these notes on the Yahoo Group as well so hopefully we can discuss them.

Please note that I feel that JOHN HAS DONE A WONDERFUL JOB ON THESE RULES! My comments below are merely things that we might want to consider for either this contest or the following contest. If any of my comments sound derogatory, it is purely by accident or is being miss read. I say this as sometimes it is hard to put the correct feeling behind written text and I do not want to be misconstrued.

Take care,
KJohn

Let's start with the general section, contest rules snippets are in bold while my comments are in italics.

ROBO O-GAMES

GENERAL COMPETITION RULES

1.) Contestants are limited to the use of Lego RCX robots ONLY. Further, the following parts limitations apply:
a.) One RCX Controller
b.) Up to three Motors
c.) Up to three Touch Sensors
d.) Up to three Light Sensors
e.) Up to one Lamp
f.) Up to thee Rotation Sensors

This is a bit limiting in the motor area as the club kits have plenty of motors. Perhaps we can limit motors to what can safely be connected to the RCX or the maximum number of motors available to club members via MVCC. I have to believe this is somewhere between 4 and 6.

8.) Once a robot has been "Checked-In" and assigned a number, the Contestant is not allowed to modify the robot, rebuild the robot, or reprogram the robot until after the Awards ceremony. During the competitions, a Contestant is allowed to select and run any and all programs loaded within robot's Controller. Further, at any time when the Contestant's robot is not competing, the Contestant may change the batteries in the Controller.

While it is perfectly acceptable to not allow assemblies to be added/removed during a given contest, what about manual level flipping of an existing part? That is, the robot has a level (or whatever) on it that is moved from position "A" to position "B" between O-Game sub contests. This is not clearly defined and should be allowed. What should not be allowed is adding pieces or removing pieces.

If you want to be really liberal, the robot can be reconfigured between contests, only using the parts that it MUST carry in every contest. There should also be a time limit of a couple of minutes for these changes to be made.

13.) Competition Officials may create, modify or abolish any of the rules at any time.

Under no circumstances should rules be changed close to a contest time. While the INTERPRETATION of the rules is up to the contest officials, it is unfair to the contestants to change the ground rules for a contest after substantial work has already been done.

RoboSumo Wrestling

Competition Rules

The Dohyo (Sumo Ring)
1.) The dohyo is a cylinder with a height of 1 inch and a diameter of 24 inches (including the border lines). The surface of the dohyo is made of selected grade wood that has been glued together, pressed, and sanded smooth. Its cylindrical surface is flat and smooth-painted with a nonglossy, black paint. The border line is indicated with a white-painted ring with a width of approximately 7/8 inch on the outside diameter of the dohyo. The dohyo interior is defined as the dohyo area surrounded by and including the border line. "On the border" is defined as being within the interior of the dohyo.

For future games I would suggest a larger ring as the size ring specified here limits the amount of "searching" one must do to find the opponent. Perhaps a 3 or even better 4 foot ring with a 1 foot cube robot. I would leave the weight limit alone as 1 Kg is plenty.

3.) The "starting halves" are formed when the first robot is placed on the dohyo, so that no part of that robot is touching the imaginary line, and any side of that robot facing the green diamond creates another "imaginary perpendicular line" with 90 degree right angles at the intersection of the two imaginary lines.

Umm, my tiny brain can't comprehend this completely. Does this mean that the robot must face the imaginary diameter line? You might want to simplify this by used two shorter brown lines like traditional Mini Sumo and make each contestant touch/be behind said line.

5.) The robot must be able to fit into an eight inch cube with a width of no more than eight inches, a depth of no more than eight inches and a height of no more than eight inches. Each robot will be measured at "Check-In" and may be re-measured at any time by the Competition Officials.

While this is OK for our first contest, it stifles what little creativity Lego Sumo has to offer. There is a reason that the height is unrestricted on regular Mini Sumo and robots are allowed to physically expand after a match starts. That reason is creativity, something we should encourage.

7.) Robot programming must be designed to begin action no earlier than five seconds after the Contestant presses the start button.

Typically the robot is required to give some form of countdown via a tone or flashing lights. This would be preferred to help make the judges job easier and avoid false starts.

9.) Contestants will be seeded in tournament brackets based on random selection by the Competition Officials during "Check-In."

While random seeding is fine you may want to switch to ranking against a dummy robot as part of the qualification. That is, each contestant is required to do a mock round of 3 matches against an immobile Lego dummy robot. Then the seeding would be top ranking contestant against lowest ranking contestant, 2nd top ranking against 2nd lowest, etc. This way a robot that the upper and lower brackets would fill in more evenly. You might also want to mention that this is a double elimination tournament.

24.) Starting to fall or breaking the plane of the dohyo is not considered out. Some portion of the robot must actually touch the exterior of the dohyo.

What happens of one contestant lands on top of another contestant and thus is not actually touching the area outside the dohyo? Usually this means the the contestant on the bottom has lost as he went out first.

This also begs the questions, what happens when both contestants fall outside the dohyo? IS the last one out the winner or is it a draw?

ROBO O-GAMES

QUADRATHLON

Competition Rules

OK, I've got to ask, what order are sub contests run in? All I saw was that RoboSpeed was last.

RoboLine

The Course
2.) The course will be laid out on a white background with a black-striped line within a rectangular region measuring 20 feet by 10 feet, at a maximum. No specific course pattern will be disclosed until the day of the competition when it is actually laid out on the floor.
3.) Black, vinyl, electrical tape will be used to create the lined-path. Line thickness may vary by as much as 1/8th inch due to tape stretching.
4.) Specifics about the lined-course are as follows:
a.) The course line is contiguous and forms a complete track. Thus, both the Start point and Finish point are at the same spot.
b.) No lines terminate.
c.) No lines intersect.
d.) No lines are "forked" or branch off into two directions.
e.) Turns can be expected with none exceeding 90 degrees.
f.) No obstacles will be intentionally placed along the path.

We need to specify the minimum radii for the corners. The Chibot line following contests use a minimum of 6" measured from the center of the line.

Also, can the robots be run in either direction and if so who chooses? It does make a difference depending on the course and if a robot does better with certain combinations of turns.

6.) The Contestant will place the robot in the Start position, so that no part of the robot is crossing the imaginary Start Line.

I would use a "real" starting line. If a black line is thought to confuse the robots, then perhaps either a very thing (1/16th") black or a yellow line could be used. The other option is to use an electronic timer which starts when you pass between it's sensor towers.

7.) The robot must straddle the black line, at all times, so that no two tires from the same axle (or imaginary, extended axle, if a full axle does not exist) are ever on the same side of the black line.

Umm, you might want to rethink this one. I would say that if the entire robot comes off the line, not just a single axle. Also, if the robot reacquires the line itself (i.e. without human intervention) then this should be allowed as the robot will have penalized itself by taking a longer route. NOTE: If the later rule is used you must penalize the robot if it takes a short cut. For example, if the robot turns too sharply for a corner and ends up bypassing part of it.

9.) Time will begin as soon as the Competition Official tells the Contestant to "go."

If we use an electronic timer, the time would begin when the robot first breaks the beam between the two sensor towers.

b.) Every time the robot does not straddle the black line - 3 seconds will be added to the lap time.

This is hard to enforce as a robot can come pretty close to almost going off the line without actually going off the line. It would be impossible to properly assess this type of penalty if a tricycle design is used as the leading wheel will most certainly come off the line. An easier to enforce approach was described previously.

RoboPush

The Course
18.) The course will be laid out on a white background with a black-striped Starting Line and 10 feet in a perpendicular direction will be a black-striped Finishing Line.

How wide are the Starting and Finishing Lines? What happens if you miss the finishing line?

19.) A cylindrical container (an 8 quart Kool-Aid mix container), measuring 5 inches high and 3 ½ inches in diameter filled with 10 rolls of pennies and seven sheets of 8 ½ inch by 11 inch paper weighing approximately 3 pounds will be placed on the edge of the Starting Line in an upright position.

RoboBowl

33.) A pin grid will be laid down at the start of the competition, and each pin will be marked on the lane with a small piece of tape. Each pin will rest on top of the taped marking and will be placed on top of each marking after every reset. (Each pin's center is 5 ½ inches away from its neighbor pin center within the grid.)

Not to be too picky, but the tape marking where the pins go should be yellow or very small like a 1/16th inch circle. The reason for this is that if you want the contestants to stop before hitting the back wall, they will need to detect the line and use it judge when to stop. If a pin marker is mistaken for a line (easy to do as the light sensors see a very small area) they may stop prematurely.

RoboSpeed

45.) The Start Line will be placed at one end of the floor. Forty (40) feet from the Start Line, the Finish Line will be placed. Both the Start Line and the Finish Line will be laid out with black, vinyl, electrical tape.

Hmm, 40 feet is pretty far for an RCX robot to travel without making an arc. In other words, what happens when the contestants go off course? What happens when two contestants collide?

You also need to specify how wide the Start and Finish Lines are if the contestants are expected to physically cross them.

46.) If the number of Contestants competing in RoboSpeed is greater than 10, the Competition Officials may break the races up into multiple groups and hold run-off races to determine which robots will be in the final heat.

How is the winner determined if two or more contestants cross the finish line at the same time? Will there be some sort of photo finish as several contestants could be within inches of each other especially if they get caught on each other.

48.) After crossing the Finish Line, the robot must slow and come to a STOP.

Is there any length in which they must stop or is just pressing the power button OK?

50.) The points leader will be placed in the center position of the Starting Line of the drag strip. The second Contestant in points will be placed on the leader's right while the third Contestant in points will be placed on the leader's left. Robots will continue to be lined up, in order, with those robots in the even positions going in order on the right side of the even-ranked Contestants and those Contestants in odd positions going on the left side of the odd-ranked Contestants.

How far apart are the contestants? Some of us wider folk will need at least a couple of feet (you can put me down for 30" ;-) so as not to be interfering with the other builders.

Champions of the Quadrathlon

53.) The points from all four events will be tabulated and the Contestants will be placed in points order with the most, in First Place, to the least, in Last Place. (Ties will be broken, based on the Contestants' points from the following competitions, in order as needed, RoboSpeed, RoboBowl, RoboPush, and then RoboLine).

This sounds good but perhaps we should award a certificate (can be printed on special paper on a laser printer in the lab) for each of the first three or four places and possible a "Best of Show" award for the most innovative design as determined by the crowd or voting amongst the contestants.

Let's start with the general section, contest rules snippets are regular, KJohn's comments are in italics, and min (Larry's) are in bold:

ROBO O-GAMES
GENERAL COMPETITION RULES
1.) Contestants are limited to the use of Lego RCX robots ONLY. Further, the following parts limitations apply:
a.) One RCX Controller
b.) Up to three Motors
c.) Up to three Touch Sensors
d.) Up to three Light Sensors
e.) Up to one Lamp
f.) Up to thee Rotation Sensors

This is a bit limiting in the motor area as the club kits have plenty of motors. Perhaps we can limit motors to what can safely be connected to the RCX or the maximum number of motors available to club members via MVCC. I have to believe this is somewhere between 4 and 6.

The club is maxed out on parts - we barely have enough motors for everyone to have 3. We would also probably be short on touch sensors and rotation sensors if everyone started requesting three. However, since there can only be four sensors connected to the RCX at one time ;-) then I don't think that will be a problem. I will NOT be surprised though if people start requesting all three motors. We MUST keep the limit to no more than THREE motors for this competition. The club could always purchase more for future events if we want to expand this…

8.) Once a robot has been "Checked-In" and assigned a number, the Contestant is not allowed to modify the robot, rebuild the robot, or reprogram the robot until after the Awards ceremony. During the competitions, a Contestant is allowed to select and run any and all programs loaded within robot's Controller. Further, at any time when the Contestant's robot is not competing, the Contestant may change the batteries in the Controller.

//While it is perfectly acceptable to not allow assemblies to be added/removed during a given contest, what about manual level flipping of an existing part? That is, the robot has a level (or whatever) on it that is moved from position "A" to position "B" between O-Game sub contests. This is not clearly defined and should be allowed. What should not be allowed is adding pieces or removing pieces.

If you want to be really liberal, the robot can be reconfigured between contests, only using the parts that it MUST carry in every contest. There should also be a time limit of a couple of minutes for these changes to be made.//

John L. has told me that any "shifting" will have to be done autonomously - we'll see if he posts a ruling.

13.) Competition Officials may create, modify or abolish any of the rules at any time.

Under no circumstances should rules be changed close to a contest time. While the INTERPRETATION of the rules is up to the contest officials, it is unfair to the contestants to change the ground rules for a contest after substantial work has already been done.

Since this is our first time writing rules, if things go horribly wrong in some event (no one finishes), then this clause allows for reconfiguration of the rules if necessary. I guess we could award zero points and move on…

RoboSumo Wrestling
Competition Rules
The Dohyo (Sumo Ring)
1.) The dohyo is a cylinder with a height of 1 inch and a diameter of 24 inches (including the border lines). The surface of the dohyo is made of selected grade wood that has been glued together, pressed, and sanded smooth. Its cylindrical surface is flat and smooth-painted with a nonglossy, black paint. The border line is indicated with a white-painted ring with a width of approximately 7/8 inch on the outside diameter of the dohyo. The dohyo interior is defined as the dohyo area surrounded by and including the border line. "On the border" is defined as being within the interior of the dohyo.

For future games I would suggest a larger ring as the size ring specified here limits the amount of "searching" one must do to find the opponent. Perhaps a 3 or even better 4 foot ring with a 1 foot cube robot. I would leave the weight limit alone as 1 Kg is plenty.

Agreed, we will vary future games along multiple dimensions

3.) The "starting halves" are formed when the first robot is placed on the dohyo, so that no part of that robot is touching the imaginary line, and any side of that robot facing the green diamond creates another "imaginary perpendicular line" with 90 degree right angles at the intersection of the two imaginary lines.

Umm, my tiny brain can't comprehend this completely. Does this mean that the robot must face the imaginary diameter line? You might want to simplify this by used two shorter brown lines like traditional Mini Sumo and make each contestant touch/be behind said line.

Yeah, I'm not really sure what this one means either

5.) The robot must be able to fit into an eight inch cube with a width of no more than eight inches, a depth of no more than eight inches and a height of no more than eight inches. Each robot will be measured at "Check-In" and may be re-measured at any time by the Competition Officials.

While this is OK for our first contest, it stifles what little creativity Lego Sumo has to offer. There is a reason that the height is unrestricted on regular Mini Sumo and robots are allowed to physically expand after a match starts. That reason is creativity, something we should encourage.

I would propose that a smaller volume forces MORE creativity - can't you make your great idea fit into a small package? ;-)

ROBO O-GAMES
QUADRATHLON
Competition Rules

RoboLine
The Course
2.) The course will be laid out on a white background with a black-striped line within a rectangular region measuring 20 feet by 10 feet, at a maximum. No specific course pattern will be disclosed until the day of the competition when it is actually laid out on the floor.
3.) Black, vinyl, electrical tape will be used to create the lined-path. Line thickness may vary by as much as 1/8th inch due to tape stretching.
4.) Specifics about the lined-course are as follows:
a.) The course line is contiguous and forms a complete track. Thus, both the Start point and Finish point are at the same spot.
b.) No lines terminate.
c.) No lines intersect.
d.) No lines are "forked" or branch off into two directions.
e.) Turns can be expected with none exceeding 90 degrees.
f.) No obstacles will be intentionally placed along the path.

//We need to specify the minimum radii for the corners. The Chibot line following contests use a minimum of 6" measured from the center of the line.

Also, can the robots be run in either direction and if so who chooses? It does make a difference depending on the course and if a robot does better with certain combinations of turns.//

Agreed on both counts

RoboSpeed
45.) The Start Line will be placed at one end of the floor. Forty (40) feet from the Start Line, the Finish Line will be placed. Both the Start Line and the Finish Line will be laid out with black, vinyl, electrical tape.

Hmm, 40 feet is pretty far for an RCX robot to travel without making an arc. In other words, what happens when the contestants go off course? What happens when two contestants collide?

How are non-finishers ranked? When are non-finishers ranked?

48.) After crossing the Finish Line, the robot must slow and come to a STOP.

Is there any length in which they must stop or is just pressing the power button OK?

Is there any penalty for not stopping? If not, why would I care that the rules tell me too? ;-)

Champions of the Quadrathlon
53.) The points from all four events will be tabulated and the Contestants will be placed in points order with the most, in First Place, to the least, in Last Place. (Ties will be broken, based on the Contestants' points from the following competitions, in order as needed, RoboSpeed, RoboBowl, RoboPush, and then RoboLine).

This sounds good but perhaps we should award a certificate (can be printed on special paper on a laser printer in the lab) for each of the first three or four places and possible a "Best of Show" award for the most innovative design as determined by the crowd or voting amongst the contestants.

What are the awards going to be? I can print color certificates (anyone want to design them?)

I can field a couple of your questions, but the rest is up to John, the master of all thing rule based. ;-)

Three motor limit - Damn club/school not buying 6 motors for every kit. Haven't you heard Lego is trying to make a profit this year? Buy as many extraneous / expensive parts as you can man! :-P
Seriously, this is fine, as I only have six motors (well 9 now that my RCX bundle from eBay showed up today ;-) which will be split between Lego Sumo and Robo O-Games.

Shifting / lever movement - Hmm, I was told flipping the robot over was OK. If part of the robot were hinged, then flipping it over would also reconfigure it. Sorry, not trying to be to sneaky here, it is just things need to be made clear as to the positioning / mechanical manipulation (not part swapping, but lever flipping or joint flexing) / lever activation of any robots mechanisms.

Package volume and creativity - Sorry, but I tend to think in big packages (genetics perhaps? :-) regardless of how much creativity is applied.

RoboSpeed non-finishers - I believe the rules stated that if no one made it to the finish line then the distance traveled would be used to rank the robots. What I would like to know is if missing the finish line (i.e. curving off to the side of it) means not finishing, then how do you rank a robot that went 50 feet to far vs one that hot the line in only 40 feet?
My suggestion would be to make the start and finish line go wall to wall, then plain old simple physics will force either crossing the finish line or stopping short.

Penalty for not stopping - I believe there is a penalty for not stopping, crashing your robot into the wall behind the track. ;-)

Three motor limit - Damn club/school not buying 6 motors for every kit. Haven't you heard Lego is trying to make a profit this year? Buy as many extraneous / expensive parts as you can man! :-P
Seriously, this is fine, as I only have six motors (well 9 now that my RCX bundle from eBay showed up today ;-) which will be split between Lego Sumo and Robo O-Games.

Shifting / lever movement - Hmm, I was told flipping the robot over was OK. If part of the robot were hinged, then flipping it over would also reconfigure it. Sorry, not trying to be to sneaky here, it is just things need to be made clear as to the positioning / mechanical manipulation (not part swapping, but lever flipping or joint flexing) / lever activation of any robots mechanisms.

We'll see what JLan has to say.

Package volume and creativity - Sorry, but I tend to think in big packages (genetics perhaps? :-) regardless of how much creativity is applied.

Ah, stop your whining about your size already… ;-)

RoboSpeed non-finishers - I believe the rules stated that if no one made it to the finish line then the distance traveled would be used to rank the robots. What I would like to know is if missing the finish line (i.e. curving off to the side of it) means not finishing, then how do you rank a robot that went 50 feet to far vs one that hot the line in only 40 feet?
My suggestion would be to make the start and finish line go wall to wall, then plain old simple physics will force either crossing the finish line or stopping short.

My bad, but when exactly do we determine their distance - how long do we wait to see if they cross the finish line?

Penalty for not stopping - I believe there is a penalty for not stopping, crashing your robot into the wall behind the track. ;-)

I checked with John at Monday's open lab re flipping the bot/levers/any kind of reconfiguration. His comment was the bot can run in any orientation but cannot be mechanically reconfigured whether it is via gravity, a lever or whatever (i.e. no hinged parts when you flip over though a rigid design is OK). It can reconfigure itself via program control though (e.g. via a motor).

Awards - What I was referring to was to use the paper with the fancy printing along the edges and we would just fill in the middle with text. If w had a club logo (you know, one with OUR name on it ;-) we could put that as a banner across the top. I'd be happy to pick up some paper if we want to do this. While I think EVERYONE should be recognized for just competing, those that fair a little better deserve some extra recognition.
While I was not referring to trophies for anything like that. Now that I think about it, it wouldn't be an awful idea (the certificates could be used for recognition of participation in that event). If someone feels that is desirable, I do know a trophy house that makes them from anything from about $5 for small to $15 for large if we want something with a little plaque on it. We used them in Cub Scouts a few years ago and they were very easy to work with.

The hard part on this is that we likely should have had a club vote on whether to approve funds for awards at the last meeting. The November 29 meeting will be too late to approve funding and still get trophies in time for December 1.