misread the question and put 'the citadel' as the answer. then i thought... you know what? the citadel is reaper tech and is probably working for 'them' now. lots of peeps there complaining of headaches, warnings on the citadel broadcast system regarding hearing voices, and the clincher...........baileys haircut..yowzers.

I'm inclined to think Harbinger's laser because that makes the most sense to me.

I don't really feel like it starts at the mako crash. I mean, it could, but... The thing is, the only reason I would believe this is because it would explain away the Normandy pick-up.

But that would be more because i want to believe that it isn't happening, not because I actually think it isn't happening. But it could be either, really.

Reminds me of way back when I believed indoctrination, but I also believed Shepard was actually on the Citadel, for the simple reason that I didn't -want- to believe that the Reapers hadn't been defeated, and that the game had no real ending.

I think think is probably the reason for most now thinking it's the crash. I think what we need to do is acknowledge that the EC isn't meant to be canon, as it's clearly nothing but a way to silence the loud complaints, as it addressed the unimportant issues, but no main ones. And given that it doesn't affect IT either way, it's not self-serving to call it non-canon. Remember that it has a time limit for download after all. A long one, but it's there and that's odd. It's nothing but a means to buy Bioware time.

I think I've put the nail in the coffin on that idea that the dream starts at the crash though, or as much as we can do that with IT stuff. We all know that the end of the game is made out of two missions: "Priority: Earth" and "Citadel: The Return". What we didn't know, and Banshee just found this out, is that the transition between missions is not between when Shepard enters the beam and when he comes out in the dead body tunnel as one would expect it to be. The transition between missions is getting lased by Harbinger, that's where "Priority: Earth" ends and "Citadel: The Return" begins. "Citadel: The Return" is all a dream and is all of the dream.

There's also an autosave created the moment you make your choice/the cutscene starts. You can't reload it without modding and you can't fail or do anything at all from that point on. There is literally no reason whatsoever for this save if no content will ever come after it.

About that:

I always knew the new mission started at the laser. It always makes an auto-save there, and it never gets overwritten for me. (Unless I started doing missions again after being dropped off right before Cronos again after the ending)

So, that auto-save when you shoot the tube, whatever it does, it does not overwrite my Harbinger-laser save. I always use that one to replay the end of the game.

So either the destroy-save doesn't happen for me, or it saves something else.

But the fact that the save happens when you make your choice doesn't necessarily mean anything. The endings are long, if you have a crash, at least you won't have to play alllllll the way from Marauder Shields again, but you can just watch the ending from the moment you made your choice.

EDIT: Arg, I'm confusing the auto-save with the option to replay the mission. That's a whole other save entirely.

Silly me.

I stand by my comment that it doesn't have to be anything else than a savepoint in case of crash. In fact it auto-saves constantly during the Citadel parts.

_________________"A good leader is someone who values the life of his men over the success of the mission, but understands that sometimes the cost of failing a mission is higher than the cost of losing those men." - Anderson

i feel that it happened during the during and didn't stop when he woke up, probably becuase he never did. Firstly because this happens during/after the romance scene, and i think that is when any human would be most vulnarable to mental alteration. also because after that is when things start to get strange, i mean the citedel is 'kidnapped' and of course all the dicey events of priority:earth. maybe i'm wrong, but who knows? i'm also going to start an indepth anylisis of this soon (if i can find the time.)

Not sure if I posted this in this thread already, but a while ago I checked out the crash, and I noticed that:

There is NO fade to black when the crash happens. The lights in the truck go out because of the crash, but you can still see Shepard's silhouette in front of the the doorway, moving. There's no gradual fade, nada. It's bang, lights off.

What's the relevance of this? Well, this means that the crash no longer seems to be a starting point that makes sense. What people saw as a cinematic transition, isn't a cinematic transition. There simply is no fade to black.

So that makes the crash as a starting point a pretty random moment suddenly.

_________________"A good leader is someone who values the life of his men over the success of the mission, but understands that sometimes the cost of failing a mission is higher than the cost of losing those men." - Anderson

DoomsdayDevice wrote:Not sure if I posted this in this thread already, but a while ago I checked out the crash, and I noticed that:

There is NO fade to black when the crash happens. The lights in the truck go out because of the crash, but you can still see Shepard's silhouette in front of the the doorway, moving. There's no gradual fade, nada. It's bang, lights off.

What's the relevance of this? Well, this means that the crash no longer seems to be a starting point that makes sense. What people saw as a cinematic transition, isn't a cinematic transition. There simply is no fade to black.

So that makes the crash as a starting point a pretty random moment suddenly.

You're right, looking at the video it's actually a cut to black (or at least a cut to a very dark scene) rather than a fade to black.

However, if the hallucination starts at the beam, it doesn't explain how the Normandy managed to arrive all of 3 seconds after Shepard called for it. Joker managed to extricate the Normandy from a pitched space battle, enter the Earth's atmosphere and screech to a stop in 3 short seconds. The Normandy's not even hot from re-entry.

I think in the original cut, Harbinger's Beam made the most sense as the start point, but I think Bioware may have actually decided to move it further back to the crash in the EC. That way they wouldn't have had to worry too much about generating new plot holes with the ludicrous Normandy pick up, as they knew they could hand-wave those away as part of the dream.

DoomsdayDevice wrote:Not sure if I posted this in this thread already, but a while ago I checked out the crash, and I noticed that:

There is NO fade to black when the crash happens. The lights in the truck go out because of the crash, but you can still see Shepard's silhouette in front of the the doorway, moving. There's no gradual fade, nada. It's bang, lights off.

What's the relevance of this? Well, this means that the crash no longer seems to be a starting point that makes sense. What people saw as a cinematic transition, isn't a cinematic transition. There simply is no fade to black.

So that makes the crash as a starting point a pretty random moment suddenly.

That's just the typical fade to black of ME3.It happens really a lot (for instance when you are dancing with Jack in Purgatory and on other occasions). I wouldn't rule it out totally.

Well, it's surely before entering the Citadel, considering it makes no sense for Anderson to be there. And considering the ECs new, stupid Normandy landing scene, I'd say the cut to black Mako crash is were it all starts.

Just because the Normandy pick up scene is kind of ridiculous, doesn't necessarily mean that the illusion started here.

People want it not to be really happening, but that does not mean it's the truth. More like wishful thinking.

It's very hard to say. I'm personally more convinced by the white dream halo when the laser hits.

_________________"A good leader is someone who values the life of his men over the success of the mission, but understands that sometimes the cost of failing a mission is higher than the cost of losing those men." - Anderson

DoomsdayDevice wrote:Just because the Normandy pick up scene is kind of ridiculous, doesn't necessarily mean that the illusion started here.

People want it not to be really happening, but that does not mean it's the truth. More like wishful thinking.

It's very hard to say. I'm personally more convinced by the white dream halo when the laser hits.

I'll put my hand up and admit to the underlined. I'd breathe a sigh of relief if that daft pick up scene can be written off as some febrile dream, it's much like literal Synthesis in that regard.

They may not originally have intended the hallucination to start there, but when they were shuffling things around for the EC, they may have looked at that cut to black and thought "Well, it's not a proper dream transition as previously established, but we need to shoehorn in that bloody goodbye scene somewhere, so it will have to do."

Eryri wrote:You're right, looking at the video it's actually a cut to black (or at least a cut to a very dark scene) rather than a fade to black.

However, if the hallucination starts at the beam, it doesn't explain how the Normandy managed to arrive all of 3 seconds after Shepard called for it. Joker managed to extricate the Normandy from a pitched space battle, enter the Earth's atmosphere and screech to a stop in 3 short seconds. The Normandy's not even hot from re-entry.

I think in the original cut, Harbinger's Beam made the most sense as the start point, but I think Bioware may have actually decided to move it further back to the crash in the EC. That way they wouldn't have had to worry too much about generating new plot holes with the ludicrous Normandy pick up, as they knew they could hand-wave those away as part of the dream.

My thoughts exactly. The Mako crash is almost a throwaway scene. I mean, there is no explanation of what hit them, how they got out, how bad are the injuries, nothing. It transitions so quickly, we have no time to wonder what happened, leaving the player ripe for trickery. The scenes that follow feel like a dream (more like a coma). They are a direct continuation of what Shep expects to happen, like his mind didn't miss a beat. We immediately see everyone standing outside ready to go. Our nemesis Harbringer appears and blocks us from our goal. Shep charges down the middle of an open area with no cover. Everyone around him is vaporized, even his squad mates (unless he has high EMS, which may boost his optimism and explain why something he hopes for actually happens). The Normandy appearing shortly after he wishes them to fits a dream state perfectly, as does Harbringer's reluctance to shoot them. Then Shep gets hit by "teh lazor", yet he survives. This is explained away far more easily if it is a dream, rather than Harby setting his phazor to stun (though that's still quite possible). The breath scene also fits into this perfectly. Shep wakes up right where he was when he fell/crawled/was thrown from the Mako wreckage.

What keeps me from dismissing the beam option is the white halo DD mentioned. That has indicated a transition in mental state in the past. Also, from the Mako crash scene itself, there is nothing to indicate it was catastrophic to the point where Shep would be badly wounded and his armor damaged. Shep is just off balance and thrown forward like the Mako ran into something. Plenty of reason to think he may have smashed his head and fallen into a brief coma, but no context for the injuries shown in the breath scene.

While that would have a certain logic, I doubt I would be the only person upset to find that the entirety of ME3 was a hallucination. That would be a bit too much of a mind screw even for me.

Gonna vote other in a second...I buy into arrival only in the sense that Shep's perception of the world around him was definetly altered after his expierence on that asteroid...I wouldn't go as far as saying that all of ME 3 was a full blown hallucination, but I think that there is enough to question that you could argue that the very first thing we see in ME 3 could very well be a hallucination.

_________________Renegade Shep's response to Starbinger the Reaperbieber stating that destroy would wipe out all synthetics:

I just can't see it being the Mako crash. It's just a repetition of what happens on Tuchanka. There's really no suggestion whatsoever that any dream or hallucination starts there. I think the Mako crash theory probably came retrospectively as players tried to imagine how it might all make sense, as it allows squad farewells but negates the EC Normandy landing. Wishful thinking imo.

The fade to white sequences make sense. Bioware are suggesting possibilities of dream states here. Laser beam, entering the conduit, Magic Elevator.

For me the bizarre elements leading up to the elevator (Kaidan Ash bodies, human reactions to Steve death, old mission memory repetitions) are somewhat hallucinatory (Shepard losing mental control). But Shepard is still awake.

The other possibility is imo Cronos - either at the beginning, where Shepard also finds convenient holovids of Cerberus actions, or at the end, when there's a proper fade to black before the TIM scene (note how your squadmates won't follow you up the ramp here either).

As for Restrider's diagram... either E or F i guess... the whole normandy crash landing and repair does seem very dream / purgatory-like...

People really need to stop saying EC was only for shutting people up. Honestly, it's undeniable the EC adds some great bonus evidence to IT so this claim is clearly wrong. The EC parades as a fan service, but because their working on a reveal or even if just to throw some bones to ITers, they also add in a bunch of stuff either to support IT or to get ready for the Reveal.

Even without the EC, claiming harbinger toned the lazors down does not get rid of the piles of dead bodies and other such indoctrination hallucinations. Fact is the last moment there was any shred of normalcy was at the M77 crash and after that even without a universe law breaking Normandy pickup scene, things still are nowhere near Reality.

_________________Life is chaos itself. Organisms appear and evolve as a mere byproduct of thermodynamics.

Welcome to a universe made up of many universes, enter prisoner 092993 of a tiny blue dot.

Selim Bradley wrote:For me, it starts at Harbinger's laser making contact with Shepard. Everything before that can be logically explained.

Piles of dead bodies are almost certainly one of those things Bioware intended players to catch wind of... after all it was one of the very first things noticed. No, most of the stuff has no explanation. Shepard shouldn't even be able to stand next to a beam that melts every other person in a millisecond. Speaking of which, there is suddenly an infinite army on our side...

_________________Life is chaos itself. Organisms appear and evolve as a mere byproduct of thermodynamics.

Welcome to a universe made up of many universes, enter prisoner 092993 of a tiny blue dot.

Selim Bradley wrote:For me, it starts at Harbinger's laser making contact with Shepard. Everything before that can be logically explained.

Piles of dead bodies are almost certainly one of those things Bioware intended players to catch wind of... after all it was one of the very first things noticed. No, most of the stuff has no explanation. Shepard shouldn't even be able to stand next to a beam that melts every other person in a millisecond. Speaking of which, there is suddenly an infinite army on our side...

The piles of bodies are there because the Reapers are sending humans, alive and dead, up there to be harvested. Harbinger sees Shepards use to them alive, hence te indoctrination of in the first place, so "sets lasers to stun" or in this case critically injure. And as for the infinite army, that is a combination of you having the entire galaxy there to fight and gameplay mechanics(they know people will take different lengths of time to reach the event location so set the animation on loop, not expecting people to stand there for hours).

As I already said, the cut to darkness in the M77 crash happens a lot in ME3 when a scene ends and the next scene is in the same level (examples would be Jack dancing in Purgatory for instance). Does this prove anything? No. But I would not count it out as a possibility.

I really liked the idea someone posted at the dawn of time (-> beginning of these boards or maybe even in the MKIII, where I just posted the IT variations chart).

He suggested that Shepard was unconscious in the M77 or around it, due to the crash obviously. The scenes happening after that were Shepard in a hallucinatory state, but without any influence of Reapers/Harbinger.Once Harbinger lands in the game, this means that Harbinger (or any other Reaper) is starting to get a foothold in Shepard's mind. The run to the beam would then be Shepard trying to wake up, essentially reaching the beam being the moment he wakes up.Being hit be the laser then turns this into an indoctrination hallucination and it is basically classic IT.

I know that there is no real evidence for this interpretation (apart from the lunacy of the Normandy pick-up scene, the piles of bodies and maybe the laser not evaporating Shepard). But I think it has some elegance.

Selim Bradley wrote:For me, it starts at Harbinger's laser making contact with Shepard. Everything before that can be logically explained.

Piles of dead bodies are almost certainly one of those things Bioware intended players to catch wind of... after all it was one of the very first things noticed. No, most of the stuff has no explanation. Shepard shouldn't even be able to stand next to a beam that melts every other person in a millisecond. Speaking of which, there is suddenly an infinite army on our side...

The piles of bodies are there because the Reapers are sending humans, alive and dead, up there to be harvested. Harbinger sees Shepards use to them alive, hence te indoctrination of in the first place, so "sets lasers to stun" or in this case critically injure. And as for the infinite army, that is a combination of you having the entire galaxy there to fight and gameplay mechanics(they know people will take different lengths of time to reach the event location so set the animation on loop, not expecting people to stand there for hours).

First off all the bodies are the same, and laziness is not a legit answer if we believe IT. Seriously, I hate when IT supporters hold views that contradict their own point of view. Bioware may have been pushed for time, but such an extreme level of laziness would be seen in many other ways. Yet the only possible examples, are actually what we consider evidence for IT not laziness.

_________________Life is chaos itself. Organisms appear and evolve as a mere byproduct of thermodynamics.

Welcome to a universe made up of many universes, enter prisoner 092993 of a tiny blue dot.