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Not another person begging for "group dependant MMO". No thanks. I won't play it.

But we do need to return to the sandbox games. I'm sick to death of the pvp and themepark focused games.

What is the point of an mmo if you can eaily solo the content? Why not just play a single person rpg, for that sort of play style it would be a massively superior product, at leat if you pick a good one.

Raph Koster of SWG (and other games) design fame said in a recent video that MMOs, in the mold of what they originally were, are no longer being made. And haven't been.

He called what is being made these days "SPG games in shared space" (or words to that effect).

And I strongly agree.

What is lacking are things like player interdependency, social hubs/functions, real functioning economies, and allowing for multiple playstyles.

That is what most of these "1-month wonders" that MMO makers are putting out have been sorely lacking.

Thing is, for the person looking for a good, well made sandbox-ish game (and who doesn't like EvE), there is nothing out there.

And there is very little hope either, on the horizon we have DF whatever, made by the same clowns that put out the first one as a buggy, exploit riddled mess, and Archage, which if it ever comes out in the West will have a cash shop, and that is something that has no real place in a sandbox MMO.

So, no, there is not a whole lot out there for people looking for that.

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Yeah, we need a true MMO. A game that translates the great experience of pen and paper into a computer game. So far have nothing been even close (and only a few with UO in the lead did even try).

But difficulty is not what makes a true MMO, even if I prefer more than what we seen in games lately.

I'd love to see something that brings that pnp feel to a graphical MMO. I'm starting to think it isn't going to happen though. While I don't kid myself, I am probably going to give Neverwinter a shot just to see what the community can do with the ugc tools, if ever a community was destine to make something interesting it was the NW players.

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there "were" alot of good MMO's out there but as always the creators get greedy and ruin the game by releasing content that we dont need.

For example of some good MMO's ruined by company gettign greedy..

Rohan BloodFued: YNk came out with Epic weapons and litteraly killed the game.

Grand Fantasia: They made fortification increase without increasing the dificulty of make the mobs stronger therefore all u need is a little cash and you can solo the whole game and no need for a healer or tank.

Luminary Rise of goonzu: not much i can say bout this game. it was a social political game that was ruined by the players itself.

i mean i can go on and on but, there is never gona be one game that not gonna get ruined by a greedy company wanting more money. there are other way of getting more moeny with out ruining the game. examples:

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Oh my, if only I had the funds, I'd give you your MMO. It would have a massive world. It would take real time weeks to cross on foot. So most people, unless they become adventurous would rarely go beyond the confines of where they started in the game. That is not a bad thing. There would be plenty to do within the area you start within the game. There would be no classes. No levels. It would be skill based(limited of course). Stats based(limited here as well). Your stats and skills would define what you can and cannot do. A player with low str is not going to be wearing platemail and weilding a huge arse sword for instance. I think I would take the basic game of Mount and Blade(keep the combat and archery as is for the most part) and then make a hybrid online persistent world based on a medieval setting. There would be quest of sorts - but nothing like we see in todays MMO's. Your actions would have an impact. For intance...

Let's say you are part of a growing village. It requires resources to stay healthy. You as a player can do a number of things to help keep the village healthy - either by being a farmer - or by hunting - maybe fishing. As long as you do your part and provide to the health of the village - it'll grow and become stronger. You may have to fight off brigands from time to time. Maybe even go on caravan duty to protect a cities caravan from bandits. Maybe wolves are raiding farms and killing livestock. You as a player would need to go hunt them down. There would be endless possibilites for you the player to partake of. Who knows...you might even one day live long enough to see your village become a city and that city beome the capitol of a kingdom and you it's King or Queen. How cool would that be?

So my game would be like Mount and Blade - crossed with Age of Empires - and Skyrim, but be an MMORPG through and through.

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"We DO need. A somewhat hard mmo. One that relays on the guy next to you having a hard time soloing too. A game that joining a guild means something, and helps the players progress as a team. Make a friend that you click with?....Add him to your friends list....It's all about survival in a hard world."

Don't we already have Darkfall for this? I mean seriously...No sorry. I'm being semi sarcastic. Well Shadowbane wasn't really sandbox-ish (was it?) but I wish .. really wish that it went open source specifically to sort this kind of dilemma. Won't happen though. Actually something did happen. Wait what? Like every MMO...

Look... To me it doesn't matter which old school title we came from. It's not the game mechanics. It's not the rulesets, level/map/world design, skill trees, class stats' modifiers bla bla bla. It's the players. New or old. Warped expectations. That's all and that's the fucking problem.

F2P. P2P. Don't matter. Waste bandwidth for gigabytes of the installer. Set game + forum accs. Waste time from char/class customizations. Go out look at NPCs, maybe look at global chat and then figured "OK maybe I'll solo this 1st 20..". Or maybe 1 time paid for an acc, waste time + bandwidth again for the installer. Rinse. Repeat. Oh? It's good? OK I'll pay for next month again.

For example the previously mega "Why can't I solo in a MMO?" debacle. It's simple. Right intention. Wrong genre. Grey wanted to be seen in black or white. Went for about hundreds of pages that thread iirc.

Newer generation of MMO players are primed, optimized and desensitized in a Twitter-rage, iChat, Whatsapp, Facebook environs and thinks that a 10Mb bigger file to their phones'or tablets' Dungeon Hunter 3 installation is an unnecessary addition w/o even making the effort to read changelogs or comprehend why. It's socializing in acronyms and abbreviations. It's not even a proper verbal exchange with correct spellings. We have kids right now who can't even form proper sentences to hang onto their dear lives on manual essays. This phenom irks the older player base while the young uns are just too plugged in and out to even be bothered. Older players should have naturally exercised just enough years-forged patience nonetheless...but the lot of us choose to ridicule, isolate and/or just ignore the community factor.

This is now. Progress we like it or not will always be a moving target. MMO publishers' idea/symbol of a community stat are the sales stat. Smaller/indie devs maybe. Overall everyone, their paid girlfriends and expenses need to be well funded. Preferably long term.

When you try to get into something with proportionate positive:negative ratio whilst lacking control over the negative, it will be negative.

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Originally posted by ZigZagsI think what the OP needs is to give the new Darkfall a chance once it comes out. That was one of the hardest MMOs I played since UO

Thank you for your concern for the us that would like mmo's back Zig.

However I would like to back myself up a bit by saying that both I and many of us would like harder, not full hard. Just something that works better with a community. A game that is risky to leave that safe haven of a city town or outpost. An mmo that can be played solo when your just not in that kind of mood to talk chat or group every minute of play. But one that AS YOU LOG IN FRIENDS ARE ALREADY ASKING IF YOU CAN HEAL TANK OR DPS, or simply play together because your not selfish.

An mmo where you know the environment, all the fun features because you know all that already. BUT your logging on to be part of, feel needed. Like UO, EQ, EQ2,Vanguard,Vanella WoW,EvE,D&D Online, LOTRO. I'm absolutely sure there is a full market for games like this, They just need to be made better by 2012 standards, AND VERY IMPORTANT NEVER GO F2P. This kills the communities too. Who is Paying ?...Who is not ?...Who is gimped because they never paid a cent....How can someone really trying to progress know who they are trying to play with.

What would be nice :

I'm sorry, I don't think a single voice could be of any help to developers, BUT if mmorpg.com could set up some sort of voting system, and pass there findings on to developers, they may take some advice.....BECAUSE DEVELOPERS ARE ACTING ON THERE OWN IN MAKING EASY MODE. They think everyone loves WoW's easy mode !!!

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Originally posted by ScotWe could try and sort the funding out on Kickstarter, only need 20 million dollars, about 16 million pounds, easy. :D

this >>> http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2012/09/project-eternitys-all-star-effort-to-revive-the-classic-pc-rpg/ ~ Arcanum I want that back soooo bad. But this is OT. And if even with them street cred, they got as of now $2,168,211 pledged of $1,100,000 goal it doesn't seem that easy. I would have thought it's double that by now.

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Originally posted by delete5230

What we need is an old school mmo. In other words we need an mmo that is hard.

We DON'T need. Dungeon finders, cross realm nothing,Dynamic events with auto group, story telling that other social people can't get involved,cinematic that pulls players away from the game for 3 minutes when in groups....This stuff is bull crap...Bottom line.

We DO need. A somewhat hard mmo. One that relays on the guy next to you having a hard time soloing too. A game that joining a guild means something, and helps the players progress as a team. Make a friend that you click with?....Add him to your friends list....It's all about survival in a hard world.

SOMETHING THAT MAKES YOUR HART POUND, BUT WITH FRIENDS,IT CAN BE DONE. This is an mmo !....I don't know what you call all this crap we have now. GuildWars 2 in a nice game. Well made, tons of features. BUTT is still a disappointment as a sociable mmo. It's too easy, no chatting, no social, no guild or friends dependent. It's almost hard to call it an mmo depending on how you look at it ( yes and no ).

I for one would like ( my opinion ) An old school mmo with no auto features, yet nice graphics. An mmo where the developers promise to not ever screw it up and make it easy mode. A game where developers can concentrate on making the world larger, more exploration, more dungeons and raids . Always working on coding to make the game run better. What I would like to see ( my opinion ) is the opposite of SWTOR, with its shallow game play yet a bunch of crap cintamatics and cut seens that takes away from grouping and game play.

Darkfall Unholy Wars is comming. And it has all and more of those you are asking ;)

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Quirhid

No it was pulled from an earlier discussion and of course it's a made up number. I was pointing out the fact that an older sandbox style game would be more designed to keep people for a longer period than those coming out now designed, intentional or not, for short stays.

A smaller playerbase that grows over time is more beneficial to a developer IMO because they can project for updates and expansions focusing on the game and not thier finances.

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Originally posted by AeliousQuirhid

No it was pulled from an earlier discussion and of course it's a made up number. I was pointing out the fact that an older sandbox style game would be more designed to keep people for a longer period than those coming out now designed, intentional or not, for short stays.

A smaller playerbase that grows over time is more beneficial to a developer IMO because they can project for updates and expansions focusing on the game and not thier finances.

Buy hey, +1 for meaningful discussion amiright?

You could've just said that instead of pulling out numbers and whatnot. The crux is that from the investor standpoint, not only do the "short term games" pay out much faster but they are more lucrative overall. Even if a "long term game" can attract the critical mass of players to survive, it is hard to predict or ensure it will last long enough to make similar or greater profit.

Sandboxes are already riskier because while players can make the game, they can also break it.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky

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Option A: Roll out the same old shit in a different skin for a quick turn over and profit. Rinse and repeat.

Option B: Try take the hard road and make the kind of game that is notoriously difficult to do right, whilst having a smaller and more vocal/opinionated audience to try and sell to.

I've always been an advocate of sandbox games and I've actually spent money supporting/playing them. But whilst it is clear that some of us need a "true mmo"(sic), for the main part, a lot of the dev/publisher teams certainly do not.