With the huge changes made to league, I have to seriously question why so many rights are given to players from the 'old league'. TELO has been calculated to give a better representation of a player's ability. Plus, TELO has been adjusted to 'punish' those that haven't played enough tournament games. Why not re-order this new improved league only according to TELO? Giving so many rights to players that won or lost league games to 'inferior' competition will give the new league the wrong lineup to start. Old league was dying due to multiple issues, and 6 spots in A and B seems too much. If I understand correctly, TELO already factors in previous league results. Why not use this adjusted TELO to start everyone off according to where they should be? And, if there has to be an adjustment for the old league with issues...2 spots with rights should be more than enough...

It just seems unrepresentative of what the new league is trying to accomplish.

I was one of the players asking for some places in the New League for players from Old League (not for me, I had my place without it).
I think that if Old League is dead, it's more the fault of the top TELO players that didn't play than the fault of the players that played.
But perhaps you're true, there should be less places, or/and replace :

Quote:

Group A will have:
*the best 10 players signing up from TELO 2p USA (Euro 2p for Euroleague).
*The last 6 players will be the signed up players with the better rights from the last season of League(Euroleague) that are not included in the other 10.
(Sequence of rights to be announced separately to avoid unformatting the rules, in next post)

Group B will have:
*the remaining best 10 players from TELO 2p USA signed up (Euro 2p for Euroleague).
*The last 6 players will be the signed up players with the better rights from last season of League/(Euroleague) that are not included in the first 10 of B or in the A division.

by something like that :

Group A will have:
*The 6 players with the better rights from the last season of League(Euroleague) (if they sign in)
*the best players signing up from TELO 2p USA (Euro 2p for Euroleague), completing to 16
Group B will have:
*The 6 players ranked from 7 to 12 from the last season of League(Euroleague) (if they sign in)
*the next best players signing up from TELO 2p USA (Euro 2p for Euroleague), completing to 16 (or 14)

I agree with Knockando. Would have been cruel if you played A in the Old League and have to start in C in the New League now. That sounds really unfair. It's not our fault that so many players didn't play yet.
And my personal point of view: If i had to start in a lower division now i would have quit the total League system.

I understand your position, but I think the "new league" concept has to be fair for everybody : someone like Marshall who played 9 or 10 seasons of League has no rights at all because he did not play the very last edition ? He will be sent in C, regardless of a decent TELO, of having climbed all the way up and of having decent results in League ?

What I also hear in the background is that the competition should be fair to start with for all the players who signed up : the new ones (who signed up for a good reason : League offers matches against players of your level) and the former league players.

I agree with Knockando. Would have been cruel if you played A in the Old League and have to start in C in the New League now. That sounds really unfair. It's not our fault that so many players didn't play yet.
And my personal point of view: If i had to start in a lower division now i would have quit the total League system.

Would be cruel if you played old league and won group A a couple of times and should play group C now if you didn't play the last season.

Would be cruel if you've been nr 1 in USA and 2P many many times over 7 years and it should take you until 2016 to reach group A, just because those who played season 13 have more rights than anybody else, even if we call it NEW League and start afresh.

There are a lot of reasons for interest in League waning in 2013 and also a lot of good reasons for new rules and we have a great list of people signing up for NEW League. I would like to play in a super strong group of 16 players that includes White Train, kostass, xbomanx, Patterson, Hecki and Rui.

Maybe the "Old" League slots should some how be filled with how well you did over all 13 seasons, not just the last season. If you want to reward the old league players, this would be alot more fair.

Not sure how you would do it. Some kind of point system. 5x the # of times in A, 4x # of times in B, etc. If you missed a season or 2, oh well, you just have less points (as it should be since you were less committed to league than other players). Then based on your points you get into the new league divisions.

Together with the start of registration of new league, it was published how the groups A, B, C1 and C2 will be built. So everyone could decide to sign up or not - knowing the conditions and in which group he/she might play.

Up to now there are more than 64 registered players, so the idea of how to build the groups didn't seem to be THAT bad. Why starting to discuss and changing things some days before start?
Same as Hecki I signed up, knowing I would play in B and not again have to start in the bottom group.

Regarding the amount of players in each group:
I would appreciate the same number of players in each group as fas as this is possible (If necessary 17 or even 18 players in each group).

If there will be more than 64/68/72 players and you want to divide into 5 groups, why not A, B, C, D1 and D2. I don't like the idea of 2 groups B1 and B2, making it very wide right under the top.

Hi all, I read all and thought about it... I am going for A,B1,B2,C1,C2... It is easier to manage passages from B to C and to have it wider close to the top is closer to my original vision. Division with maximum 16 players. I am traveling nnow. I wil post updated rules tomorrow night. Main idea: top 2 of each division gain promotion. No more radical enlgements for league rights but more Telo players in the two B divisions. More details tomorrow

A change is in all cases needed because there will be more players than expected (and it is a very good thing ), so we need at least one more group.
I agree that it isn't a good thing to change too much published rules, and it wouldn't be fair for a player who would be downgraded from published rules to new ones
Probably that 2 B groups should be the better choice...

In this case, I think adjusting the rules last minute won't hurt too much...especially considering the NEW league going forward. If we continue as advertised or take into account elka's idea, this becomes old league all over again. How many new players wanted to sign up for old league??? Not very many.

And I'm sorry, but if your TELO score is not close to those you will be playing with...you have no business being there. Starting a top 50 TELO player in C is a bit ridiculous.

If we have to honor all the previous league rights, I see the only solution is to have more people in B and create two B's. Drake, Truck and Sys have a point with needing an adjustment considering past league performances. So if a few of league 13's people need adjusting with their placement, I think it will further the good of new league going forward.

We have a chance to create a much better league than was previously used. Lets get this right to start with....

I think Qorlas, dea1, Sysyphus, Drake, Elric and I should discuss this and maybe allow 2 more days for the sign up deadline. That was the whole idea of having a "board" or what you may call it.

Not a good idea for Qorlas, dea, Sysy and Drake (Elric and I have been less involved) to each suggest new rules in this thread and add to the confusion. Alterations to groupings or rules should be a board discussion and I'm sure all that's said here will be taken into account.

I'm looking the have so many players to this new competitive already registered. I would also like to again send a thanks to Qorlas and his team who made this all possible. However, it should not be disregarded that are allowed to a lot of new players such as Anu, White Train, Truckerteller etc and I have therefore filed because of this competition for the new TELO be held regulations. Do not think it would have done a registration of these players, if you do not this great TELO system would have used as bait. This competition is an absolutely new competitive and has nothing in common with the previous one. The new TELO system in a league form should include games where the performance strength of all players is as close as possible to the other leg. I personally think, and a variety of other players, it is of great importance. Therefore, the players from the old competitive should get no additional laurels though its TELO point number for a league is not enough. I ask you in charge of this reconsideration to make a fair and reasonable for all decision, possibly vote on all players in order. this is better than if already registered players boycotting this competition. The offset of the start up date of 1 week could clarify much against it if in the right track back.

Alterations to groupings or rules should be a board discussion and I'm sure all that's said here will be taken into account.

Ok , since the discussion started, i want to add my 50 cents

Eihter you want to introduce the new TELO rating or not.
It was made exactly for a new start of seeding.
To give 6 wild cards to players, of those only one would show up in DIV A when the seeding would be done just based on the TELO, is too much for my taste.

If you want players just given places according to TELO, you might have considered to create a kind of TELO-tournament - but that shouldn't be called league.

League means after a season the top ranked players proceed to the next higher division and the lowest ranked players go down to the division below. So why not taking old-league rights into account? ... I can understand if the highest TELO-ranked player, who will be put into B due to these old-league rights won't be happy, (I think it's xbomanx at the moment and can even reach White Train or toutoune if all top-10 players sign in) but the rules have been published before registration, so you knew before.

dea1 schrieb am Sat, 04 January 2014 12:50

Whatever the benefit of a change would or would not be ...

I want to be able to rely on published rules not to be changed at last minute.

I don't understand why such discussions come up at last minute either ... time for contributions is when the rules are designed or at least immediately after they are published.

... and if you change the number ... where is the right place for a cut.

Thinking about what will be happening after 2 or 3 season: Some top players, who just had more bad luck than other top players might be changed from A to B. Their TELO might stay high having better matches in SPWC or NC or Fusion Cup. ... They won't be happy about going down to B ... or even might stop playing league ... and the NEW league might slowly become as old league has been in the end ... And then it will be time to create another new league? ... or just change it to another event:
TELO-tournament

... no I don't want to blackpaint things ... There are really nice changes in new League rules ... and I think you initiators did great work. Let's give it a try, whatever you decide about groupings ...

The panel members discussed the issues you brought up intensely.
We decided on a compromise that hopefully accommodates most of them.
We are aware that it will never be possible to get everything perfect - but we believe that's as good as it gets.
See the new setup of League groups and rules in the new thread "New League revisited - the final rules"

Here's the current preview of the League which is taking the updated rules (described >>HERE<<) and the League rights (described >>HERE<<) into account.
This is a preview for Division A, Division B and Division C.

The 4 Players who are benefiting from League rights in each division are placed at the top of the division. The remaining 12 players filling up a division are placed according to their Telo Rank. (the number by their name).

This preview is subject to modifications according to possible new registrations.
If you have any comment, please send a pm to any panel members (dea1, DrakeStorm, Elric - Sancerre, Qorlas, Sysyphus, Truckerteller). This thread is now closed.

Once upon a time there was a fantasy land, where all inhabitants played a strange game fanatically. They moved little trains to build routes and earn points. And they organized funny competitions and hard tournaments. One of it was called league, created by an eagle. Later a wise, scientific owl acted as tournament director.

They fought doggedly to win their division or at least to stay in it. One of the competitors was an old, grey wolf. He also loved this game and so he played the league from the very first season till now. In the penultimate season he could win division B, so he was in the top division and had to fight hard to avoid the relegation, because he fought unlucky sometimes. But he succeeded and was very happy.

Then the disaster started. A dark and scary dragon devastated the country and destroyed the league. He created together with his friends the TELO (terrific enslaving lame organisation) with a new ranking system. The wise owl tried to defend himself against the new system but the dragon was stronger and drove her near insanity. The owl promised to protect her faithful friends and posted that. The wolf was happy, he would keep his place in group A. But more and more opponents gathered, a warlockyphus and his wife leaned on the owl too. Their wish was to create elitist groups, only the best players should be promoted. They will play among each other, no need for them to play against weaker opponents.

After all, the owl had to cede, the new system won. New animals came into the top group, never seen before in the old league. The wolf was very sad. Where were the good, old times, when faithfulness and friendship were more important than ranking and points? Okay, it is a fairy tale and that is not the best bottom for wolves - usually they were killed, shot or sunk with flaggins in a font.

At least he kept his life and got a place in group B. Should he take it or sign off? A hard decision

Perhaps the grey wolf could take a night's sleep and hopefully realize that even though the Evil Dragon and his gimpy mignons have hurt the wolf's feelings, the League of extraordinary animals has actually more than doubled in size and the wolf will be able to make friends with many new animals in a stronger and bigger group than he was originally destined to play. Some credit is due to the Evil Dragon for creating more interest in NC, in League and in Fusion. French dragons may be stinky and ugly, but they can have some merits.

As for the so called elitist animals, most of them have played more than 10.000 games against weaker opponents, maybe the wolf can find it in his heart to support their desire to participate in the toughest catfight ever.

This Dutch donkey would certainly hope to see the wolf return for another story.

In general it is not very nice to change the rules afterwards, but I understand there were much more signups than expected.

However, imho the new seeding rules that were presented today are not a small change but are really quite different compared to the original ones.

original:
* The best 10 players signing up from TELO 2p USA (Euro 2p for Euroleague).
* The last 6 players will be the signed up players with the better rights from the last season of League(Euroleague) that are not included in the other 10.

new:
* The best 4 players signing up with the better rights from the last season of League.
* The best 12 players signing up from TELO 2p USA not considering the previous 4.

Going from 10/6 to 12/4 might reflect the larger than expected interest, but changing the order in addition makes for a big difference and goes very much against the original idea of the old League players staying in their seeded group (at least that is how I interpreted the original idea).

E.g. In the current sign-up, only 2 players (deep_blue and RMarkes) are in the first group A not on TELO, compared to 6 in the original rules.

I think the old League players should be taken into account as much as possible, and I propose to at least change the order of the seeding back to what it was (so first TELO and then the wildcards for League seeding).

Just my 2 cents.

p.s. about the league order seeding, it is not clear to me that B1 should be seeded lower than A6 or even A3, but that is another discussion..

Well, the key points seems to be: Is the new league an improvement of the old league (as many thought) or a complete new competition? Let me sum up some statements:Qorlas: Division A: all players having the right for Division A from last League season (if they sign in) and then filling up with TELO.
Division B: All players having the right for Division B from last league season (if they sign in and they are not already in A) and then filling up with TELO.
This is the result we should aim for to give something to both the players faithful to old league and to the top TELO players.So, Qorlas ment an improvement of the old league.

Drake: Maybe the "Old" League slots should some how be filled with how well you did over all 13 seasons. If you want to reward the old league players, this would be a lot more fair.Why not? A different opinion, but in the same direction.

Ommie: TELO has been calculated to give a better representation of a player's ability. Old league was dying due to multiple issues. Starting a top 50 TELO player in C is a bit ridiculous. We have a chance to create a much better league than was previously used.Totally different, no spirit of the old league.
Same thoughts from Xbomanx: Great TELO system. The players from the old competitive should get no additional laurels though its TELO point number for a league is not enough.Okay, lets have a look at the great TELO system.
I found the following players (in parentheses their TELO position): Super Chief (75), Gaialsaac (78), downerd (79), Sir1 (93), Olle Boll (112), DN (144), onyx puffin (171), solinfs (172), Tyrana (183), RFAD (188), Qorlas (195) Are you sure that Sir1 is a much a better player than RFAD? Strange, this system seems to work just for players with at least 30 results.

Knockando: I think that if Old League is dead, it's more the fault of the top TELO players that didn't play than the fault of the players that played. I agree that it isn't a good thing to change too much published rules, and it wouldn't be fair for a player who would be downgraded from published rules to new ones.Could be my words.

Hecki: It's not our fault that so many players didn't play yet. Bravo!

Dea: I want to be able to rely on published rules not to be changed at last minute. Good things need some time ...Also bad things ... We had rules before signing in. Why change it in the last minute?

Truckerteller: I would like to play in a super strong group of 16 players that includes White Train, kostass, xbomanx, Patterson, Hecki and Rui.Okay, you are a TD for the top players, but the weaker players need support too. It is really boring for them, that they only can play against each other. I see a danger that weaker players loose interest and stop playing tournaments. Is this in your interest?

Sysyphus: I think the "new league" concept has to be fair for everybody. This thread is now closed. If you have any comment, please send a pm to any panel members Do you fear our comments that you wanted to close the thread? It looks a little bit snotty, sorry!

Yaelka: Together with the start of registration of new league, it was published how the groups A, B, C1 and C2 will be built. So everyone could decide to sign up or not - knowing the conditions and in which group he/she might play. Up to now there are more than 64 registered players, so the idea of how to build the groups didn't seem to be THAT bad. Why starting to discuss and changing things some days before start? If you want players just given places according to TELO, you might have considered to create a kind of TELO-tournament - but that shouldn't be called league. Thinking about what will be happening after 2 or 3 season: Some top players, who just had more bad luck than other top players might be changed from A to B. Bravo, good points. Some players of group A will lose a lot of points in the league, maybe they are only able to play in group C or D afterwards. Will they continue league? My feeling says no!

Okay, you are a TD for the top players, but the weaker players needs support too. It is really boring for them, that they only can play against each other. I see a danger that weaker players loose interest and stop playing tournaments. Is this in your interest?

That is not at all my interest. Let's look at the current provisional pairings:

Luculupus, yaelka, Qorlas, OlleBoll, JenAck, DN: All these players get to play in a group that is far stronger than an Old League Season 14 would have presented them. Moreover, Season 14 would bring mostly the same opponents as the last 3 seasons with some 30+ participants. Same story for players signing in for group D1,2,3. Stronger and bigger groups.

Do you want strong opponents as you say, refreshment and a more intesting group or is it mostly important to be in the glorious group A ?

Lucullupus wrote on Mon, 06 January 2014 20:32

Hecki: It's not our fault that so many players didn't play yet. Bravo!

Neither is it the fault of those who haven't played yet that interest in Old League is at a low point. On the contrary, with more than 40 new players, it is actually quite clear that there was something wrong with the rules and set-up of the Old League and huge improvements have been made since.

Personally, I wanted to sign up for season 1, but since cheaters were allowed to join and even against a most obvious malignant case like monstarmaster, nothing was going to be done, I refrained from signing up. Unfortunately not a lot of people seemed to care, yet at the same time interest in NC was going down the drain for similar reasons. 2 years later, I had no interest in starting in group E,F,G,H or whatever.

I don't think I've earned it to be associated with an "elitist" stigma.

Do you want strong opponents as you say, refreshment and a more intesting group or is it mostly important to be in the glorious group A ?

Personally, I wanted to sign up for season 1, but since cheaters were allowed to join and even against a most obvious malignant case like monstarmaster, nothing was going to be done, I refrained from signing up.

No, group A is not so important for me, it is just the feeling that some things could be made better, fairer for all participants. As Ishamael wrote, nobody can understand, that the winner of group B has to persist in B while the second best climbs up to group A (btw. the direct match was won by the group winner 6:1). I will not sign off and give new league a chance in B as well, but if enough players will sign off and make a new improved "old league" I probably will change into the old system which I preferred. I tried to advance the opinion of weaker players, not just my opinion.
Do you have methods to avoid cheating? This would be wonderful!

You can check all my old forum posts in the past as they relate to monstarmaster, Neven Subotic, Denmark/NandoRafael, Deveric and his multiple accounts (Sorry Eric, no offense here), Nimbus2000/Hogwarts. All before "proof" or clarity was created.
A 100% record.

(...)Sysyphus: I think the "new league" concept has to be fair for everybody. This thread is now closed. If you have any comment, please send a pm to any panel members Do you fear our comments that you wanted to close the thread? It looks a little bit snotty, sorry!
(...)

I think it's unfair to devaluate the collective effort that 6 persons (4 mainly with the contributions of 2 others) made to write those new rules by comparing them to a fight between single opinions, with only one winning in the end.
If all the people that you mentionned voiced up in this thread, I think they all had a fair reason to do so and all had valuable arguments.

Also, I would have hoped that you noticed, as the result of a concertation, that my post in that thread is a part of a collective effort (with dea introducing the rules published afterwards by Qorlas).

I don't fear any comments, nor do I fer to take any responsibility or decision, nor do I fear to promote general interest over mine.
This thread was closed for the same reasons comments on rulings are not allowed, to let the emotion aside of the debate.

As an observer : it is hard to give tons of credit to the results of group B considering the weight of rulings in there. It's not the best basis for a seeding.

No, Sysy, I did not devaluate your efforts, but to change rules 2 days before the start of a competition is strange and unique. Just because few so called stars blackmailed the TDs with their sign in (only if their group A place is assured).
Imho the optic is not the best. Better would have been a voting between the two suggestions (12/4 or 10/6) or keep the old rules. Then everybody would have been happy. But to make new rules (I believe, that the TDs tried their very best!) in the last moment and to avoid responses with the words "The thread is closed now" is an impossible approach in my opinion. It is like the methods of a totalitarianism - we dictate, you have to obey. And I dont believe that you wanted to present the new league in that way. The work, the efforts of the TDs is great and we all have to thank you and your associates for that but it must be allowed to criticize in the few cases when we see necessity.

Yes, sorry Lupo, you DID devaluate some big efforts just about this "little" muddle to refine rules after the BIG success of registration for the NEW League !
And no, when I say "little muddle", I don't want to minimize this current case, but I still consider that the most important now is to see that number of players doubled from the Old League... that is great ! And maybe, Lupo, because you're not born yesterday, you could remember where we were 2 or 3 years ago (I won't enumerate the "big" troubles that we had at this period...).

So, of course, you're totally right : you have the right to criticize, you even have the right to think that things could be better for all participants... but that, to my opinion, I think it's not true. Just because you will never satisfy totally ALL participants !

And please, if you want to thank some people that just try to organize things, that are just volunteers, that of course won't do things always perfectly, please, don't use such harsh words like "totalitarianism", "elitist", "insanity" or "terrific enslavery ...".
Your fairy tale doesn't seem a fairer tale

Well, that discussion could have also happened by pm. That is not totalitarism yet .
Maybe yes, that thread had to stay open since an explanation is needed.

To be fully complete :

We 6 have different visions, like the posts in the forum suggest, but we tried to reach the best compromise and offer what's best for everybody.
Like for any other tourney.

Yes, there was bad communication overall from us (including me) to advertise the New league. Like most of players who signed up, we 6 had a different understanding of the rules in mind.

Yes, timing was really bad, not to say crap. Yes, that sucks to update rules right before the deadline. We had this in mind.
We designed rules for a model that would last more than one season. With the previous rules, the model would have probably died in its egg.

Revamping the League is not an easy task nor an easy decision to take, but the turnout let us think that the renovation/reset was really needed.

Ultimately, a compromise between TELO -which is used by Qorlas as a reference- and League was needed to give an incentive to new entries as well as to former League players.
In the first draft of rules, the voice of the former League players was, for good reasons, promoted -thinking that Old League players would be the majority among the sign-ups for the New League-.

With the excellent turnout, the Old League players have happened to be a minority now.
The concept of League in general, and not the first draft of rules, has helped to reach a 80-player turnout...
Top players voiced also their opinion, and players of intermediate levels have also righlty expressed their concerns.
While the new rules are still giving rights to a minority of players, new entries are now given also a fair treatment.

League could have also experienced a full reset based on TELO (it was for example my opinion before the first draft, but opinion that I certainly did not bring into the discussion for the updated rules). The owner of rights remain the only players with priviledges according to the New League rules.
Rights are now the same number as before, they are just used on 3 divisions instead of 2.

Well balanced groups still give a challenge to all players and ample opportunity for promotions to even bigger challenges.

I think maybe the problem is people don't understand there was not going to be a League 14.

I don't want to speak for anyone, but my impression was the following:

Qorlas was going to end league. Participation was low and TDing it was a bit of a headache.

I created TELO.

Qorlas liked it and thought it would be useful for seeding tournaments.

With this new toy, Qorlas had a renewed interest in TDing a New League.

To get more participation, Sysyphus asked people what kind of format would get them to play.

A bigger, longer League was born.

Qorlas wanted to bridge the old league with the new league and carried over some of the standings from League 13.

Much discussion ensued.

Rules were posted.

More discussion ensued.

Rules were altered.

Some people end up in a lower division than if old league continued, yet old league was never going to continue so really nothing to complain about.

Some people end up in a lower division than if there was a complete reset.

I assume most people signed up not knowing 100% what division they were going to be in. Most probably didn't even read the rules.

The only person who has any right to complain is Qorlas, if he is running a tournament with modified rules he doesn't agree with. But if he is ok with the current rule set, then everyone has the following options 1) play in this tournament, 2) don't play in this tournament, and whether you pick 1 or 2, you always have the option of creating your own tournament with your own rules.

There are alot of threads opened about the various topics (TELO, New League, NC, etc.) asking for input, or just answering questions and very few people post. I am sure the rules will change again before EURO-League starts, so if you want to be heard, speak now.

This would
1. pleasing more people (if this the intention of the rule change)
2. avoiding drifting towards the old league with a (too) big ladder (4 divisions now) which might lead to the same decrease of particpiants as before

If you add : Promotions only earned on the board, divisions filled up with rights won on the board only (TELO rights). We also offer an alternative to the flaws of the Old League, hoping that it's the good one.