GMT dates can generally be trusted, as an impact occurred in 3114 BCE: the climate collapse shows up in tree rings and one fragments impact is described in"The Book of the Celestial Cow" which covers the founding of first dynasty of Egypt with the unification of the 2 kingdoms of Upper and Lower Egypt.

"5 It has been tentatively read by Luis Lopes (2003) as PALAW, “lake” or “ocean,” a reading that does not appear to have enduredfurther scrutiny amongst scholars, probably because the iconography of the logogram suggests a stream, river, or ford, more than alake or ocean (Stuart 2005:75; Marc Zender, personal communication,March 16, 2006).

"It is difficult to explain the coexistence of this purported “lake” logogram with the well known naahb’ (nab’i/NAH-b’i)expression, which also means “sea.”

"In my opinion, the “water-band” logogram represents a noun or nominal root, for this is what its presence in collocation F5 of the Temple XIXPlatform suggests (na-ka-?-wa-AJ). As Stuart (2005:76) has mentioned, this expression appears to be parallel to that of E6, whichconsists of a compound noun (a verb-object combination) plus an agentive suffix –aj, pointing to the fact that the “water-band”logogram performs in these contexts the same syntactic functionas the glyph for “fire” (K’AK’)."

[Not that difficult to read in the context of an impact tsunami, particularly the one that destroyed the "wooden people".]

"Among the Maya groups that left behind written testimonies during the Posclassic and Colonial periods,we find different accounts that revolve around the existence of a flood that wiped out the previous world andallowed for the creation of a new cosmological order.

"With the K’iche’, for instance, this flooding was produced by Uk’u’x Kaj (“Heart of the Sky”), or Juraqan, Mother and Father of the Gods, in order to annihilate the race of the men of wood (Recinos 1984:94-98; Christenson 2003:85-90).10

"Bartolomé de las Casas (1967,II:507) also mentions that amongst the Q’eqchi’ people from Verapaz, “there was news about a flood and the end of the world, and they called it Butic, which means deluge of many waters and also judgment,11 and sothey believe that another Butic is yet to come, which is another flood and judgment, not of water, but of fire,which they say has to be the end of the world, in which all creatures will fight each other […].”

"A similar passage is contained in the Relación de la ciudad de Mérida (De la Garza 1983, I:72), which confirmsthe belief in successive floods of water and fire 12 as well as a caiman that symbolizes the flooding and the earth:'They had also news about the fall of Lucifer ["Lucifer" is actually Itzamna,the cosmic serpent, a comet, was always understood by the Catholic priests as the "Devil".] "and the Flood [of Noah, for the Catholic priests] , and that the world shall end by fire., And in order to signify this they performed a ceremony where they painted a caiman that meant the Deluge and the Earth, upon which caiman they made a great pile of wood and put it on fire, and after it was turned into live coal, they flattened it and the main priest passed barefooted over the live coal without being burnt, andafter him everybody else who wished also passed, understanding by this that it was the fire that shall finish them all.

[Impacts into water cause tsunamis, while impacts into land cause fires.]

"For the Yukatek Maya, the flooding was caused by Ajmuken Kab’ [AH MUZEN CAB] (“He Who is Buried Underneath the Earth”) and by the B’olon/ ti’ K’uh (“The Nine Gods”), telluric forces that outraged the thirteen gods of heaven [the heavens]and robbed them of their insignia (Roys 1967:99-100).As a consequence of this, THE SKY FELL and, according to Landa (in Tozzer 1975:135-136), the four B’aah Kab’ escaped the destruction[BA CAB = off from the Earth]

Maybe because of this, the word B'’AAH KAAB’ IS WRITTEN ON PAGE 74 OF THE DRESDEN CODEX (Figure 9), [I guessed correctly.]a passage traditionally interpreted as the destruction of the world caused by a flood (Thompson 1993:214-216; Davoust 1997:256-257; Schele and Grube 1997:198-199).

[Thus while the experts can read the glyphs, they can not understand what they are trying to say, the "words" in other words,because they can not accept the existence of recent steroid and comet impact events - oh well]

"Streams of water descend from the jaws of a pluvial caiman and from a pair of eclipse glyphs that it carries below its body. According to Karl Taube (1995:72), the expressions “BLACK SKY” (B2: IK’/CHAN-na) and “BLACK EARTH” (C2: IK’/KAB’-b’a) that appear in this scene area possible reference to the destruction of the world.

[Either impact dust loading, or directional colors.]

"In Michael Coe’s (1973:14) opinion, this topic was picked up on page 32a of the Madrid Codex (Figure 10),where another black deity, which has been identified as Zimmerman’s God Z (Zimmermann 1956:164; Bricker 1997:21; Sotelo Santos 2002:165-166; Hernández and Bricker 2004:295-296), appears holding his weapons under a sky band from which rain is pouring.

[I think it may be safe to say that the Madrid Codex did not come from Texcoco,but more likely from some city on the Gulf Coast.]

"We notice that the god grasps a spear, two darts, a shield, and a spearthrower. A SNAKE, which probably represents lightning (see Taube, 1997:19-22; Miller and Taube 1997:106), seems to tear a hole in the celestial band.

[Often times among many early peoples lightening and thunder are understood in terms of impact events.For example, in North America, in one set of beliefs thunder is the sound of the Thunders protectors fighting off impactors,]

"It is well known that the scene of the flood precedes the New Year pages of the Dresden Codex (pp. 25-28),where amongst other ceremonies, the erection of trees in the four corners of the world can be observed.As noted by Taube (1995:72-73), the account of the flood also precedes the New Year ceremonies in Landa’s Relación,and the cosmological myth about the erection of world trees in the Chilam Balam books of Chumayel, Maní, and Tizimin, which confirms the basic idea expressed on the platform of Temple XIX of Palenque, in the sense that the flooding unleashed a process of cosmic destruction and renewal.

"An important passage contained in the Chilam Balam books of Tizimín and Maní describes how the flooding was preceded by an eclipse and caused by a pluvial and celestial caiman, 'whose head was severed in order to build the new cosmological order out of its dismembered remains. [impactor dust load]

"I quote the version of Chilam Balam of Maní contained in the Pérez Codex:[In the reign of 13 Ahau and 1 Ahau were the days and nights that fell without order, and pain was felt throughout the land.Because of this] Oxlahun ti Ku [the Thirteen Gods] and Bolon ti Ku [the Nine Gods] created the world and life; there was also born Itzam Cab Ain [Iguana Earth Crocodile]. [Ah Mesencab] turned the sky and the Petén upside down, and Bolon ti Ku raised up Itzam Cab Ain; there was a great cataclysm, and the ages ended with a flood.

"The 18 Bak Katún was being counted and in its 17th part. Bolon ti Ku refused to permit Itzam Cab Ain to take the Petén and to destroy the things of the world, so he cut the throat of Itzam Cab Ain and with his body formed the surface of Petén (Craine and Reindorp 1979:117-118, brackets in original).17

[So it look to me like we have an original creation account, a description of the flooding of the Peten by the Holocene Start Impact Events,elided with a proto-historical account of the destruction of the "wooden people".Now if I could only work the dates in the Chilam Balam texts.It was very frustrating to not be able to get to Austin.]

"Taube (1995:70, 73) has pointed out that the myth of the decapitation and dismemberment of the Itzam Kab’ Ahiin caiman is suspiciously similar to the nahuatl version contained in the Histoyre du Mexique (Garibay 1979:108), which narrates the manner in which Tezcatlipoca and Quetzalcoatl [comet] chopped up the body of the Tlaltecuhtli monster, and with its dismembered body parts, formed the world.

There was a nice exchange on Aztlan list in 2009,but everyone missed the role impact events played in the peoples' world views.Mike Rugieri, who moderates Aztlan list, has a real problem accepting the existence of recent comet and asteroid impact events.

Some of the issues raised in the discussion of this matter areexplored in Timothy Knowlton's 2004 dissertation (Tulane Univ.), "Diaologism in the Languages of Colonial Maya Creation Myths."

For those that don't have access to Timothy Knowlton's dissertation, an updated version will be published in the next year by U. of ColoradoPress under the title: "Maya Creation Myths: Words and Worlds of the Chilam Balam"

Re: [Aztlan] Water over the worldWednesday, November 4, 2009 5:27 PMFrom:"donald raab" <@yahoo.com>To:"Paul Sullivan" <@verizon.net>Cc:Aztlan@lists.famsi.orgI've read with interest the various discussions about 'water over the world". Even if the actual translation is literal it is good news, There could NOT have been 4 destructions of the world because we are still here.

[Destructions and creations of the world depended on the points of local views. But in point of fact, mankind as species nearly went the way of the dinosaur,reaching an estimated 50 people at one point. - EP] > .......................................................

Dave Hixson raises an important question about the meaning of the /il/ infix in the expression, /ha-il-yokol-cab/ or /hay-il-yokol-cab/.

It's a relational term. If in this expression "ha" means water, then the expression would be "the water of the world," even as in modern Yucatec, /ha-il-a-w-ich/ means "the water of your eye," or "tears." The presence of the relational infix inclines me against reading this a pertaining to water ("the water of the world"?), but, rather, /hay/ or destruction -- i.e. "the destruction of the world." That reading is reinforced by the appearance of a related expression, /noh hail cabil/, "great destruction of the world" (not "great water of the world") in the books of Chilam Balam in conjunction with the slaying of Itzam Cab Ain.

Some of the issues raised in the discussion of this matter are explored in Timothy Knowlton's 2004 dissertation (Tulane Univ.), "Diaologism in the Languages of Colonial Maya Creation Myths."

No,Linda Schele determined that the flood glyph was conneccted to the Venus glyph on page 113 on the Caracol Stela 3.9.9.18.16.3 (Dec. 24. 631.) of the Star Wars booklet from the Maya Meeting in 1994.

The dripping elements are from the nova instead.

Dea

[Dea is a died in the wool Velikovsky fan ansd friend of the late Linda Schelle. I never read any of Velikovsky's nonsensical work, and have no intention of doing so,but send those interested in it to Leroy Ellenberger. - EP]

This would have been my translation of haiyokocab as well. Except for the extra /i/ inserted into the word.

I would have expected, based upon standard Maya root formation that there would have been a consonant or a glide before or in place of the /i/.

/ha/ /'i[l]/ /yoko[l]/ /cab/

A quick look through the Cordemex resolved this question for me, as there is in fact a word "ha'il" (with the glottal stop between the vowels). This term is glossed as "acuatico, aguadija, secrecion".

Without that glottal stop, I don't think one should ignore that /i/ as possibly changing the meaning of this term.

Therefore, while I still think Michael's transcription of the various roots within this term are absolutely correct, I do caution that this seems to assume an insertion of a consonant between the first two vowels, or the the omission of the second vowel.

Perhaps there is a linguist on the list who could explain the placement of this /i/, since I welcome any corrections to my understanding of Maya orthography.

-Dave

David Hixson"Nothing more useless than a bored archaeologist"-Douglas Adams

Forwarded Message: Re: [Aztlan] Water Over the EarthRe: [Aztlan] Water Over the EarthMonday, November 2, 2009 7:24 PMFrom: "Michael Grofe" <@gmail.com>To: aztlan@lists.famsi.org

Hi Barb, Elaine and Prudence,

I submitted my message before I saw all of yours, so my apologies for the redundancy.

Barb, is it possible that we have here a pun for both /ha/ as 'water' and/hay/ as 'destruction' over the earth?

Bolles' reading of /hay/ as 'flatten' would seem to be semantically related to the root 'stretch thin, make flat', yes? I also found an entry he has about /hai/ as 'of or pertaining to water', but this seems to be a contraction from /hail/:http://www.famsi.org/reports/96072/h/hah_hakzic.htm

Prudence, the iconography in the "Star War" glyph certainly is suggestive of this 'water over earth' destruction by flood - albeit with the EK'star/Venus sign included. The current tentative reading of this collocation, proposed by David Stuart (1995:265, 311–13), is /hub'/, meaning 'fall, collapse', and elsewhere as 'destroy, knock over'. However, as far as I know, the only clues we have regarding the reading are a commonly infixed /yi/ that can replace the KAB' component, or follow it as a suffix, whereas other examples have a /ya/ suffix. I found one example on the now famous Tortuguero Monument 6, G4 which contains both the /yi/ and the /ya/ as suffixes following the whole version of the "Star Wars" glyph that includes the KAB' component. The /-yi/ would seem to be a completive/past tense form, though it may tell us that the root does have a final /-y/. The /-yi-ya/ combination is less common, but it may read 'since it was destroyed/attacked'.

> From: "Barb MacLeod" <@austin.rr.com>> To: <Aztlan@lists.famsi.org>> Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 13:55:37 -0600> Subject: Re: [Aztlan] Water Over the Earth> Here's a bit of information about the root /hay/ in Yukatek Maya:>> It is historically /h/-initial rather than /j/-initial, according to the Motul Dictionary, and thus it is not cognate with /jay/ meaning 'thin', 'stretched out'. The Motul entry is <haycabal, haycabil>: 'destruicion o asolamiento y diluvio general con que fue destruido y asolado el mundo'.>> Other Motul entries such as <haay cimi u alakob> 'todo mi ganado y mis aves se murieron' suggest that it does not refer specifically to flooding but> rather to general destruction and widespread mortality ('gran mortandad').

> However, there seems to be a persistent association with destructive floods.> In the Cordemex (p. 190) under <hayah> one finds multiple examples> suggesting that /hay/ is an intransitive root (<hayi winik>) and is> transitivized with causative /-(e)s/; it also forms compounds with verbs and> nouns (<hay kimil>, <hay kab>, also on p.190) suggesting an attributive> function, and at times it behaves as a noun, as in Tozzer's form> <haiyokocab>, analyzable as /ha(a)y yok'ol kab/ 'destruction over the earth'.>> Thompson is correct in his understanding of the simpler terms <haycabal> and <haycabil>, which can be analyzed as ha(ay)-kab-il/-al> 'earth-destruction' plus an abstractive suffix producing '(the general concept of) earth destruction'.>> As for any epigraphic references to floods, we have of course the scene on p. 74 of the Dresden Codex depicting what has been thought to be a great end-of-world flood. The terms 'black sky' and 'black earth' appear in the text above, which opens with an unknown verb that may be "watery".

Perhaps someone has deciphered it?>> And on pages 68-77 of David Stuart's (2005) The Inscriptions from Temple XIX at Palenque there is discussion of a primordial crocodile sacrifice featuring another undeciphered "watery" verb, referring in this case to the flowing blood of the beast. Perhaps this may be a flood reference, but the verb in question is followed by 'u-CH'ICH'/K'IK' -le: /'u-ch'ich'el/k'ik'-el/ 'his blood'.>> Barb MacLeod

> Also, it might be helpful to look at Erik Valazquez Garcia's "The Maya Flood Myth and the Decapitation of the Cosmic Caiman" found at the> Mesoweb website:> http://www.mesoweb.com/pari/publication ... lood_e.pdf,> where he discusses the Temple XIX passage that Barb references, as well as other passages that discuss floods and the flow of blood.>> Elaine Schele

> > In 1907, Tozzer recorded a story near Valladolid, Yucatan in which there is a narrative of four successive creations and their destructions by floods. In writing of the initial creation, he notes, "This first epoch was separated from the second by a flood called _haiyokocab_ (water over the earth)."> >> > Tozzer, Alfred (1907) A comparative study of the Mayas and the Lacandones. Arch. Inst. Am. Rep. of Fellow in Am. Arch., 1902-05, N.Y.> > (The quote is cited in Tozzer 1941, ff. 633, as from pp. 153-4).> >> > In "Maya History and Religion," Thompson speculated that "haiyokocab" was "comparable to the terms _haycabal_ and _haycabil_ used in the Books of Chilam Balam" (1970: 341).> >> > 1) What is the specific etymology and meaning of "haiyokocab"?> > 2) Is it a typical name for a flood or a name for a special kind of> > flood?> > 3) Was Thompson correct about comparable terms in the Books of Chilam> > Balam?> > 2) Is there any epigraphic evidence for related terms in pre-Contact> > literature?> >> > Thanks!> >> > John Hoopes> >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> From: "Prudence M. Rice" <@siu.edu>> To: aztlan@lists.famsi.org> Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 11:23:11 -0600> Subject: [Aztlan] Water over earth>> So could this phrase be the meaning of the so-called "star wars" glyph that shows droplets over an earth sign?>> Dr. Prudence M. Rice> Professor of Anthropology and Distinguished Scholar> Associate Vice Chancellor for Research, and Director, Office of Research Development and Administration> Southern Illinois University

My question was really about the possible long-term continuity of a significant trope. In Classic glyphic texts we see a Venus sign with water over a toponym, like Seibal or Naranjo. Could the term registered in Colonial-period prose and myth as "water over earth" (without specifying a particular place) be a continuation of the same concept (whatever it is).

Pru

Dr. Prudence M. RiceProfessor of Anthropology and Distinguished ScholarAssociate Vice Chancellor for Research, and Director, Office of Research Development and AdministrationSouthern Illinois University CarbondaleCarbondale, IL .......................................................

Forwarded Message: Re: [Aztlan] Water Over the EarthRe: [Aztlan] Water Over the EarthSunday, November 1, 2009 1:55 PMFrom:"Barb MacLeod" <@austin.rr.com>To:Aztlan@lists.famsi.org

Here's a bit of information about the root /hay/ in Yukatek Maya:

It is historically /h/-initial rather than /j/-initial, according to the Motul Dictionary, and thus it is not cognate with /jay/ meaning 'thin', 'stretched out'. The Motul entry is <haycabal, haycabil>: 'destruicion o asolamiento y diluvio general con que fue destruido y asolado el mundo'.

Other Motul entries such as <haay cimi u alakob> 'todo mi ganado y mis aves se murieron' suggest that it does not refer specifically to flooding but rather to general destruction and widespread mortality ('gran mortandad'). However, there seems to be a persistent association with destructive floods. In the Cordemex (p. 190) under <hayah> one finds multiple examples suggesting that /hay/ is an intransitive root (<hayi winik>) and is transitivized with causative /-(e)s/; it also forms compounds with verbs and nouns (<hay kimil>, <hay kab>, also on p.190) suggesting an attributive function, and at times it behaves as a noun, as in Tozzer's form <haiyokocab>, analyzable as /ha(a)y yok'ol kab/ 'destruction over the earth'.

Thompson is correct in his understanding of the simpler terms <haycabal> and <haycabil>, which can be analyzed as ha(ay)-kab-il/-al 'earth-destruction' plus an abstractive suffix producing '(the general concept of) earth destruction'.

As for any epigraphic references to floods, we have of course the scene on p. 74 of the Dresden Codex depicting what has been thought to be a great end-of-world flood. The terms 'black sky' and 'black earth' appear in the text above, which opens with an unknown verb that may be "watery". Perhaps someone has deciphered it?

And on pages 68-77 of David Stuart's (2005) The Inscriptions from Temple XIX at Palenque there is discussion of a primordial crocodile sacrifice featuring another undeciphered "watery" verb, referring in this case to the flowing blood of the beast. Perhaps this may be a flood reference, but the verb in question is followed by 'u-CH'ICH'/K'IK' -le: /'u-ch'ich'el/k'ik'-el/ 'his blood'.

In 1907, Tozzer recorded a story near Valladolid, Yucatan in which there is a narrative of four successive creations and their destructions by floods. In writing of the intial creation, he notes, "This first epoch was separated from the second by a flood called _haiyokocab_ (water over the earth)."

Tozzer, Alfred (1907) A comparative study of the Mayas and the Lacandones. Arch. Inst. Am. Rep. of Fellow in Am. Arch., 1902-05, N.Y.(The quote is cited in Tozzer 1941, ff. 633, as from pp. 153-4).

In "Maya History and Religion," Thompson speculated that "haiyokocab" was "comparable to the terms _haycabal_ and _haycabil_ used in the Books of Chilam Balam" (1970: 341).

1) What is the specific etymology and meaning of "haiyokocab"?2) Is it a typical name for a flood or a name for a special kind of flood?3) Was Thompson correct about comparable terms in the Books of Chilam Balam?2) Is there any epigraphic evidence for related terms in pre-Contact literature?

Also, it might be helpful to look at Erik Valazquez Garcia's "The Maya Flood Myth and the Decapitation of the Cosmic Caiman" found at theMesoweb website:http://www.mesoweb.com/pari/publication ... lood_e.pdf,where he discusses the Temple XIX passage that Barb references, as well as other passages that discuss floods and the flow of blood.

Elaine Schele

On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 1:55 PM, Barb MacLeod <@austin.rr.com> wrote:> Here's a bit of information about the root /hay/ in Yukatek Maya:>> It is historically /h/-initial rather than /j/-initial, according to the Motul Dictionary, and thus it is not cognate with /jay/ meaning 'thin', 'stretched out'. The Motul entry is <haycabal, haycabil>: 'destruicion o asolamiento y diluvio general con que fue destruido y asolado el mundo'.>> Other Motul entries such as <haay cimi u alakob> 'todo mi ganado y mis aves se murieron' suggest that it does not refer specifically to flooding but rather to general destruction and widespread mortality ('gran mortandad'). However, there seems to be a persistent association with destructive floods. In the Cordemex (p. 190) under <hayah> one finds multiple examples suggesting that /hay/ is an intransitive root (<hayi winik>) and is transitivized with causative /-(e)s/; it also forms compounds with verbs and nouns (<hay kimil>, <hay kab>, also on p.190) suggesting an attributive function, and at times it behaves as a noun, as in Tozzer's form <haiyokocab>, analyzable as /ha(a)y yok'ol kab/ 'destruction over the earth'.>> Thompson is correct in his understanding of the simpler terms <haycabal> and <haycabil>, which can be analyzed as ha(ay)-kab-il/-al 'earth-destruction' plus an abstractive suffix producing '(the general concept of) earth destruction'.>> As for any epigraphic references to floods, we have of course the scene on p. 74 of the Dresden Codex depicting what has been thought to be a great end-of-world flood. The terms 'black sky' and 'black earth' appear in the text above, which opens with an unknown verb that may be "watery". Perhaps someone has deciphered it?>> And on pages 68-77 of David Stuart's (2005) The Inscriptions from Temple XIX at Palenque there is discussion of a primordial crocodile sacrifice featuring another undeciphered "watery" verb, referring in this case to the flowing blood of the beast. Perhaps this may be a flood reference, but the verb in question is followed by 'u-CH'ICH'/K'IK' -le: /'u-ch'ich'el/k'ik'-el/ 'his blood'.>> Barb MacLeod>> *************************************************> Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 11:59:34 -0500> From: "Hoopes, John W" <@ku.edu>> Subject: [Aztlan] Water Over the Earth> To: <aztlan@lists.famsi.org>>> In 1907, Tozzer recorded a story near Valladolid, Yucatan in which there is a narrative of four successive creations and their destructions by floods. In writing of the initial creation, he notes, "This first epoch was separated from the second by a flood called _haiyokocab_ (water over the earth).">> Tozzer, Alfred (1907) A comparative study of the Mayas and the Lacandones. Arch. Inst. Am. Rep. of Fellow in Am. Arch., 1902-05, N.Y.> (The quote is cited in Tozzer 1941, ff. 633, as from pp. 153-4).>> In "Maya History and Religion," Thompson speculated that "haiyokocab" was "comparable to the terms _haycabal_ and _haycabil_ used in the Books of Chilam Balam" (1970: 341).>> 1) What is the specific etymology and meaning of "haiyokocab"?> 2) Is it a typical name for a flood or a name for a special kind of flood?> 3) Was Thompson correct about comparable terms in the Books of Chilam Balam?> 2) Is there any epigraphic evidence for related terms in pre-Contact literature?>> Thanks!>> John Hoopes> .......................................................

Forwarded Message: Re: [Aztlan] Water Over the EarthRe: [Aztlan] Water Over the EarthSunday, November 1, 2009 10:29 PMFrom: "Barb MacLeod" @austin.rr.com>To: Aztlan@lists.famsi.org

Hi, Elaine,

Indeed, this paper by Erik Velasquez Garcia is excellent, and I should have mentioned it as well, but was headed out the door to the airport. It's well worth further thought, particularly as John Hoopes has raised the question of whether *any* post-contact sources referring to a flood, including Landa, are untainted with Christian doctrine.

Velasquez-Garcia's paper makes the best case thus far for a pre-contact Maya flood/destruction belief, so perhaps we can have a fruitful conversation about his ideas.

My contributions to the discussion are more likely to be linguistic and epigraphic.

Barb MacLeod

*******************Also, it might be helpful to look at Erik Valazquez Garcia's "The Maya Flood Myth and the Decapitation of the Cosmic Caiman" found at the Mesoweb website:http://www.mesoweb.com/pari/publication ... lood_e.pdf,where he discusses the Temple XIX passage that Barb references, as well as other passages that discuss floods and the flow of blood.

To answer the first part of your question, the etymology of /haiyokocab/ in Yucatec is fairly straightforward, and precisely what Tozzer gives as "water over the earth", though /yokol cab/ also refers to 'the world':

As for your other questions, under the /yokol/ entries, you can also seethat /yokol cab/ refers to 'the world', so a flood over the whole worldwould indeed seem to refer to these mythological events, rather than to ordinary flooding, which would be /chup cabil/ or /bul cabil/:http://www.famsi.org/reports/96072/ch/chunb_chuy.htm

Regarding Thompson's association between /haiyokocab/ and /haycabil/, they may be related in terms of their reference to mythological world destruction, but not necessarily by flood. Bolles gives a definition of/haycabil/ as "destruction of the world, mostly through hurricane. From hay= flatten and cab = world.":http://www.famsi.org/reports/96072/h/hay_heancil.htm

I'm not aware of any mentioning of either of these exact words in the inscriptions, though the flood narrative from the Palenque Temple XIXplatform, south side, is most likely related. There is a repeated, undeciphered glyph in this text (F4 and F5) that refers to a deluge of blood following the decapitation of the Celestial Caiman. See Erik Velásquez García's article about this and other flood narratives, including the scene on Dreden pg. 74 and the Chilam Balam texts:http://www.mesoweb.com/pari/publication ... lood_e.pdf

> In 1907, Tozzer recorded a story near Valladolid, Yucatan in which there> is a narrative of four successive creations and their destructions by> floods. In writing of the intial creation, he notes, "This first epoch> was separated from the second by a flood called _haiyokocab_ (water over> the earth).">> Tozzer, Alfred (1907) A comparative study of the Mayas and the> Lacandones. Arch. Inst. Am. Rep. of Fellow in Am. Arch., 1902-05, N.Y.> (The quote is cited in Tozzer 1941, ff. 633, as from pp. 153-4).>> In "Maya History and Religion," Thompson speculated that "haiyokocab"> was "comparable to the terms _haycabal_ and _haycabil_ used in the Books> of Chilam Balam" (1970: 341).>> 1) What is the specific etymology and meaning of "haiyokocab"?> 2) Is it a typical name for a flood or a name for a special kind of> flood?> 3) Was Thompson correct about comparable terms in the Books of Chilam> Balam?> 2) Is there any epigraphic evidence for related terms in pre-Contact> literature?>> Thanks!>> John Hoopes

Diego de Landa en la Relación de las Cosas de Yucatán hablando de los Bacabob dice:They said that they [the bacabob] were four brothers whom God places, when he createdthe world, at the four points of it, holding up the sky so that it should not fall. They also saidof these Bacabs that they escaped when the world was destroyed by the deluge (Tozzer 1975:135-136).

13 AhauWas the posting of the burden of the katunTo the people of Emal,As well as Hol Tun [holtun - port of] Zuyua,As well as Tihosuco.

In the moon it occurredAt Zalam Koh CheilIn the burden of Tihosuco [The Katun was seated at Tihosuco.]

There occurred the suffering of the Can [Heavens] Uls.There occurred the painting with indigo.[?]There occurred the suffering of the Can Uls:There before the plaza of Can Ul,Which was also the removal,The stacking of the burden [the re-seatang of the katun]Here at Valladolid,

Just within the beginning of the dark of the moon, or else just at its completion.For numerous are the burdens of the mountaintop:The seventh in the year of painless deathPillars will be seated:The finishing of the burden of the Katun.

Here then it is customary to have seven honey tamales –That is seated in the heart of the island in Cozumel.

[From what Bolles notes, apparently, there was another Cozumel Island off the North East coast of the Peten, with a harbor on the mainland.Bolles notes on toponyms are outstanding.]

This is the arrival and the end of the word of the sun priest Uah,who is the measurer of the four pacesUnder the priest of [Ah] Muzen Cab and Za Bac Na,which completes the lordship of the thirteen lords.

1 Ahau Is the day for it,When they will join each other:The rising sun and moonAnd night then comesThe down from the 13 GodsFor the 9 Gods,Who are then born and created.Then is born Itzam Cab AinCutting the pyramid of the sun and the world.Then the sky is divided,Then the land is raised,

And then there beginsTHE BOOK OF THE 13 GODS.

Then occurs the great Itzam Cab Ain.The ending of the world,The fold of the Katun.But they did not agree:the 9 Gods;And then will be cut the throat of Itzam Cab Ain.Who bears the country on his back.

That is Uoh Puc by name –For they didn’t bear their right names –To tie the stone face [mask] and return the lordships..In 11 AhauThe arose the priest of [Ah] Muzen CabAnd tied the faces [masks] of the 13 Gods,But they didn’t know their names.“The Holy, ““The Remote,”These are the names they called themAnd they also didn’t show their [own] faces to them either.

At last It dawned,And they didn’tAlso on account of ValladolidAnd they didn’t know their goingOr their coming, and then spokeThe 13 Gods to the 9 Gods:“Bring down the fire.Bring down the rope.Bring down the stonesAnd the trees.”Then came poundingOf sticks and stones.And then appearedThe 13 GodsAnd beat their faces,And they were spat on and snatched away,

The four year bearersAnd the 5 priest Za Bac;And the quetzals were taken and the blue birds [bpth cometary ferences],Crushing the Zip,Crushing the Top,And wrapping the seedsOf the first nine steps which wentTo the thirteen levels of heaven.

Then was cut the membraneand the nose of the skeleton.Then went the heart,On account of the 13 Gods.

But they didn’t know what was going.The heartOf the moon there is dropped flat.

And the fatherless, the miserable, and those without spouses or living relatives,And those that don’t have hearts then began to rotBy the margin of the sand,By the margin of the sea.One torrent of water occurred,Which was released by the yearbearers.That was the clearing of heavenAnd also the clearing of the landsFor the period oppositeThe fold,KillingYoungest sons.That is the fold of the katun cycle;

3 Oc is the time it arrived here.1 Cimi is the time that endedThe word of the returned katun.

The four gods, the four Fathers of the Land, That is their flattening of the landWhen the lands have been flattenedThen there returnsThe red Imix tree …[and on through the four colors of the trees of thee four Ba/Cabs.]

1) First, you have the memory of the Holocene Start Impact Events, and the flooding of the Peten.The death of the cosmic alligator (not caiman),whose skin forms the land and whose blood forms the water.

For those of you without a spare $40,it has real nice 14C calibrated cores and excavations:

This impact mega-tsunami [and you can tell it was one by its force]had a very serious effect on the relations between the Nahuatl priests and the Maya based priests.In closing this worknote, I also need to note that impact mega-tsunamis can also be highly directional, if caused by a tangential impactor.Another item to note is the simultaneous impacts of multiple fragments can occur.

Thanks to the University of Bonn for making available free copies of the 5th conference papers on early Yucatec writings.It is interesting to watch both Gussenheimer and Harada take up Marxist, er, "Social Functionalist" approaches to the Chilam Balam texts, and how they politely avoid confrontation in favor of mutually supportive methods.

Neither of them mention Caso's pioneering work with the Northern texts using those techniques.

While Gussenheimier rejects a 1544 first translation date, Harada demonstrates it convincingly by locating the agents.

To review, essentially what the Spanish conquistadors had done was kill off the local kings and take their place.The underlying "Princes" were kept in place, and now would serve their new Spanish overlords.The "Princes" had to compete for their positions in turn.At 1544, it was also necessary for the Spanish conquistadors to know both the lands, and any inter-tribal conflicts they could use, to extend their control and to obtain maximum profit.The priests needed to know the local religion in order to carry out conversion to the Catholic faith.

What neither Gussenheimer nor Harada do is take the heart sacrifice and seating the tun of 1561-1562? into consideration for working the local calendar correlation problem, although Harada has a far better sense of its social function.

At the time of my first survey, the only tool I had available were the hieroglyph translators and writers gross protestations of the Catholic faith. There was no means available was to ascribe those either to the translators, initial writers, or to later editors.

"Holtun Itza" should read "Harbor of Itza", following Bolles.

For the Mayan peoples, there were two paddlers in the canoe, one of whom was the ahau can, keeper of the Ah May Can (caan).and of the Ah May Kin (kin).

I am of the opinion that there was only of one Halach uinic,who was THE Chilam Balam.

I suspect that sometime in the future a native Chinese writer is really going to be able to tear the hell out of the analysis of Mayan hieroglyphic.

Usually people believe what they want to believe until reality intrudes.

Of coursem for historical purposes nothing beats contemporary documents, if they can be 1)read and 2) understood.

My working hypothesis is that what was fundamental to Mayan cosmology, beliefs, and magical (religious) practices was the "Partitioning Event" , what has been viewed as the separation (hence "partitioning") of the land with the heavens (cab from caan).This "Partitioning Event" even has its own glyph, previously read as tz'oc, but now read as ch'oc, I seem to recall.

It may be observer bias on my part,but it seems to me that these "Partitioning Events"would better be viewed as Impact Events.

As I read in translation, the Palenque insciptions contain the following information:

16 June, 3122 BCE - The First Maize Revealer Partitioner is born 7 December, 3121 BCE - Birth of Lady White (?) 13 August, 3114 BCE - Image made visible at Closed Sky, the First Three StonePlace; Event for The First Maize Revealed Partitioner 5 February, 3112 BCE - The First Maize Revealed Partitioner enters the sky, Prepared/Dedicated the Raised Up Sky Place in the North Set in motion the Raised Up Sky Heart8 November, 2360 BCE - Birth of the Red Dwarf(?) Partitioner25 October, 2360 BCE - Birth of Sun-eyed Torch, The killer of the kings in the White House, the White Bone House, the ?? of the heavens, who with fire closed the eye of the Sun-eyed Lord Sun; “arrived” (struck) at Matawil 21 October, 2360 BCE - Birth of G1 7 September, 2325 BCE - A white headband was closed for White?17 February, 2325 BCE - Lady White conjured up the gods at Matawil

23 July, 690 CE - Some significant contemporaneous event occurred, thought by some scholars to be a planetary conjunction.

These ts'oc/tz-uk "partitionings" seem to me to be related to impact events. Now the Rio Cuarto impact event may be set exactly at 2,360 BCE based on tree ring studies, and note also the climate collapse ca 3112 BCE:

--- Matthew Salzer <msalzer@ltrr.arizona.edu> wrote:> Dear Ed,>> I saw your question that Henri posted on the tree ring forum. In my recently> constructed upper forest border bristlecone pine chronology from Sheep Mtn., in> the White Mtns. of California, there is a growth decline beginning at 3111 BC> that is consistent with the effects of a large explosive volcanic eruption and> associated cooling from reduced solar radiation receipts. It has been> suggested that an asteroid impact would cause a similar effect. I'm unaware of> any other evidence for an eruption or impact at this time.>> The largest event that shows up in my chronologies> is in 2036 BC.>> Let me know if you have any questions,

> best,> Matt Salzer

Further, the Campo de Cielo impact (at "Matawil") has now been radio carbon dated consistent with 2325 BCE.

Were the Gods of the Night comets? Or was it the "partitioners" themselves?

Usually people believe what they want to believe until reality intrudes.

The opening Long Count on the temple’s inscription is 5.0.0.0.0 12 Ajaw 3 Sak (1143 BC!), later followed by 7.10.0.0.0 3 Ajaw 13 Pax (157 BC). The ten reliably placed dates of the entire text are given here, with a brief description of their associated events:

Where "PE" stands for '"Partitioning Event".It is clear that the first White Owl Jaguar is not a mortal being, a person, as no one lives for 1700 or so years.I wonder if White Owl Jaguar is related to Lady White from Palenque?And then later some individual either claimed his powers or saw him again?

Usually people believe what they want to believe until reality intrudes.

Here is the information from my original survey:abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/ce010702.htmextracts concerning the tale of Ah Musen Cab (The Man buried Under the Ground)from the Chilam Balab texts:

AN ACCOUNT OF THE IMPACT MEGA-TSUNAMI AND BRIEF EXPLANATION OF THE RELIGION

from The Codex Perez and the Book of Chilam Balam of Mani, page 118Translated to English with notes by Eugene Craine And Reginald ReindorpUniversity of Oklahoma Press, Norma, 1979

It is unclear from the statements of Craine and Reindorp whether the parts in brackets are new readings, restorations from other copies, or their own additions to the text.

“[In the reign of 13 Ahau and 1 Ahau were the days and nights that fell without order, and pain was felt throughout the land. Because of this] the Thirteen Gods and the Nine Gods created the world and life; there also was born Itzam Cab Ain (The Spirit of the Earth Crocodile, the Milky Way - see Schele, Maya Cosmos, page 97,-epg).

“[Ah Mesencab (glossed by Craine and Reindrop as the Four Bacab, but the Musencabs are shamans, see below )] turned the sky and the Peten upside down, and the Nine Gods raised up Itzam Cab Ain (the Spirit of the Earth Crocodile).

“There was a great cataclysm, and the ages ended with a flood. The 18 Bak Katun was being counted and in its 17th part.

“The Nine Gods refused to permit Itzam Cab Ain (the Milky Way) to take the Peten and to destroy the things of the world, so he (?) cut the throat of Itzam Cab Ain (the Spirit of the Milky Way) and with his body formed the surface of Peten...

“[Ah Mesencab (again, glossed by Craine and Reindrop as the Four Bacab, but see below)], the one who laid waste to the Earth, rose up in the Katun 11 Ahau and bandaged the face of the Thirteen Gods (this appears to be bad translation of “ put (a) mask(s) on ”), but they did not know his name and they were told he was called Father, Son, and Holy Ghost [an obvious Hispanic insertion]. When the Thirteen Gods told them fire, stones, and clubs came down.

“He took the green buds, large and small gourd seeds, wrapped them up with the Nine Dz’acab ” (These have been identified as either gods, creators, conjurors, priests, steps, the Lord of the Nine Generations, the Nine Doctors - see Munro, 1982, p. 46, f. 888 and Schele, 1993. Most likely they are simply the well attested Mayan hallucinogens.), “and [...]

“They did not know that the heart of the tubercule (tuber=manioc?) was gone. After the evil sons and daughters were buried, although alive [they had no hearts], and those who were on the beach were buried between the waves of the sea.

“In this katun, on the day 3 Oc, an avalanche of water came, and on the day 1 Cimi, everything came to an end. It was said that four gods, four Bacabs, were the ones that destroyed the Earth. (The Bacabs held the sky off of the Earth.)

“After this cataclysm the Red Imix (=Alligator:Munro,1986;=Milky Way:Schele, 1993) Tree was erected, for it is one of the supports of heaven and the sign of the dawn.

“This one (east) is the Bacab who turned aside. (The tsunami came from the east.)

“Kan Xib, the father, planted the White Imix (Milky Way) Tree to the north, and Zac Xob Chac says that this is a sign of destruction. The Black Imix (Milky Way) Tree was planted to the west of Peten for the pixoy to sit upon. The [...] planted the Yellow Imix (Milky Way) Tree to the south of Peten. The Green Imix (Milky Way) Tree (The hallucinogenic ceiba tree.) was planted in the middle of the earth as a record of the destruction of the world. Since then [...] has established his gourd, his bowl, and his mat.” (These last are signs of office.).

ANOTHER COPY OF THE 1150 BCE MEGA-TSUNAMI ACCOUNT

from The Book of Chilam Balam of Tizimin: The Ancient Future of the Itza, translated and annotated by Munro S. Edmonson, University of Texas Press, Austin, 1982, page 45 et seq

“In 11 Ahau, then arose the Priest of Muzen Cab, and tied the faces of the Thirteen Gods, but they did not know their names. “The Holy”, “The Remote”, these are the names they called them. And they also did not show their faces to them either. At last it dawned, and they did not know their going or their coming,” (This is a comment either on the state of religious knowledge at that time or at a later time. The meaning is unclear.)

“And then spoke the Thirteen Gods to the Nine Gods: “Bring down fire,” (This is most likely the impact detonation.) “bring down the rope”, (This is most likely an impact plume.), “bring down stones and trees.””

“Then came the pounding of sticks and stones.” (This is the impact blast.)

“And then appeared the Thirteen Gods, and beat their heads and flattened their faces, and they were spat on and snatched away. (This is an account of the destruction of the Zoque (“Olmec”), who were “spat upon” with a mega-tsunami.)

“The Four Year-bearers” (Munro later (1986) translated “cangel” as “four changers” instead of as “year-bearers”; but as will be seen below, the cangel are astronomical.) “and 5 Za Bac,” (Munro translated this as “Soot Head”, an obvious impactor reference.) “and the Quetzals were taken, and the Bluebirds.” (These seem to be totems used thoughout the surviving literature in reference to two population groups.)

The shamans rituals are established next, with the preparation of the hallucinogens followed by the heart sacrifice.

“Crushing the Zic, crushing the Top, and wrapping the seeds of the first Nine Tz’acab, which went to the Thirteen Levels of Heaven.

“Then was cut the membrane, and the nose, of the skeleton. Then went the heart, on account of the Thirteen Gods. But they did not know what was going.” (Either a comment on the current state of knowledge or on the anethesitic effect of the drugs.)

“The heart of the Moon there is dropped flat. And the fatherless, the miserable, and those without spouses or living relatives, (Sacrificial victims came from these populations.) “and those that don’t have hearts, then began to rot, by the margin of the sand, by the margin of the sea.

“One torrent of water occurred, which was released by the Year-bearers.” (Once again, the “Cangel”, something astronomical, see below.)

“That was the cleaning of heaven, and also the cleaning of the lands for the period (of time) opposite the fold (of the katun), killing the youngest sons. That is the fold of the katun cycle, 3 Oc is the time it arrived here. 1 Cimi is the time that ended the word of the returned katun. The four gods - the Four Bacab (Sky-Bearers) - that is their flattening of the land.”

What follows is the description of the Bacabs, the Sky-Bearers, interlaced with the then current Spanish execution of their five priests.

“When the lands have been flattened, then there returns the Red (east) Imix (Alligator=Milky Way) Tree, that is proceeding to pass the four. That is the sign of the flattening of the land; that is the toppling of the Tree of the Fathers of the Land, called the East Priest Xib Yuy.

“Then there returns the White Imix (Alligator=Milky Way) Tree to the north; he is called the North Priest Xic, the sign of the flattening of the lands.

“Then also returns the Black Imix (Alligator=Milky Way) Tree to the west country, the sign of the flattening of the lands, that is the Black Imix Tree, seating the West Priest Tam Puc the Weak.

“Seating the Yellow Imix (Alligator=Milky Way) Tree to the south of the country, the sign of the flattening of the lands, seating the South Priest Oyal Mut.

“Then is seated the Green Imix (Alligator=Milky Way) Tree in the middle of the lands, the reminder of the flattening of the lands. Piled in its place is the whole of the existence of this katun.”

A BRIEF SYNOPSIS OF THE 1150 BCE MEGA-TSUNAMI ACCOUNT

also from The Book of Chilam Balam of Tizimin, pages 40-41:

(A Lord’s Celestial Interpreter finishes tranlsating one account of creation from hieroglyphic to roman letters, and begins working on a copy of another part of it, which includes the tale set out above.)

“...This is the arrival of the end of the word of the Sun Priest of Muzen Cab and Za Bac Na, which completes the lordship of the Thirteen Lords (Gods).

“1 Ahau is the day for it, when they will join with each other: the rising Sun, and Moon, and night.

“Then comes the dawn from the Thirteen Gods, for the Nine Gods, who are then born and created.

“Then is born Itzam Can Ain (the Spirit of the Milky Way), cutting the Pyramid of the Sun and the World.

“Then the sky is divided (from the Earth by the four Bacabs), and the land is raised.

“And then there begins The Book of the Thirteen Gods.

“Then occurs the great flooding of the Earth.

“Then arises the great Itzam Cab Ain (Spirit of the Milky Way)

“The ending of the word (the book?): the fold of the Katun: that is a flood which will be the ending of the word of the katun.

“But they did not agree, the Nine Gods; and then will be cut the throat of Itzam Cab Ain (the Spirit of the Milky Way) who bears the country upon his back.

That is Uoh Puc (?) by name, for they didn’t bear their right names - to tie the stone face, and return the lordship.”

This last sentence refers to the tying on of a ritual mask, and by doing so they would be re-establishing the old rituals and return their local leaders to power.

ANOTHER ACCOUNT OF THE IMPACT MEGA-TSUNAMI,CONTAINED IN AN ACCOUNT OF ONE OF THE LAST PERFORMANCES OF THE RITUAL,WITH CATHOLIC DISCLAIMERS

from The Book of Chilam Balam of Chumayel: Heaven Born Merida and Its Destiny, translated by Munro S Edmunson, University of Texas Press, Austin, 1986, page 152 et seq

“It is very necessary, the path that is the introduction to the heart. This is the tun period, when it was shaped by our Father the Remote.

“This is the taking of the occasion: this is the bal-che (?+tree) ceremony, as we honor Him here. We, the rulers spread in many parts, worship them, the true Gods.

“There they are as tuns, the established representation of the True God, our God, our Father, who is God the Father of Heaven and Earth, the true God.

“However, the first gods were leperous gods, finished is the word of their worship. They have been done in by the benediction of the Father in Heaven. Then it ends, the redemption of the tz’oc (tz’uk = partitioning of Earth and Heavens = impact event - epg) is over, (by) the twice born life of the true God, the true Dios. When they sweetly prayed to heaven and earth, that put an end to the gods of you Mayan people. Shattered is the belief in your gods then.

“This is the account of the land at that time. That is because it was written there, because it would not have happened at the time of the making of these books. These are the thousand words here for the examination of the Mayan people here, who may know how they were born and (how they) settled the land here in this country.

“In 11 Ahau, that was when there began the Muzen Cabs (some kind of priests) to tie the faces of the Thirteen Gods - and they did not know their true names, for their older sisters and their engendered sons, their offspring, and those who are not grown: perhaps even their faces and their voices are gone. The dawning of the land they did not know about either, the going and the coming.

“and then there were finished the Thirteen who are Gods, by the Nine who are Gods.

“They then brought down fire (impact detonation), they then brought down the rope (symbol of the impact plume), they then brought down stones and sticks, then came the beating with sticks and stones.” (the impact blast)

“And then were finished the Thirteen who are Gods; and so their heads were beaten, and their faces were flattened (by the impact blast), and then their faces were flattened, and then they were forgotten, and then they were also carried away (by the mega-tsunami).

“And then were planted the four cangel (heavenly bodies, see below), together with the Soot Heads. Then was created also the Quetzal and the Blue Bird.

“And then was created the placenta of breast plants, and the heart of breast squash, and breast pumpkin, and breast beans, the wrapping of the seed of the First Nine Steps (these are most likely the hallucinogens).

“Then they went to the thirteenth (13th) level of (the) heaven(s), and so then were established his membranes, and his nose, his skeleton here in the world. So then went his heart, because of the Thirteen who are Gods. But they did not know his heart was to be a plant.

“And then they all arrived, even the fatherless, and the suffering poor, and the widows; the living and those without hearts.” (This probably describes the classes of people from which sacrificial vitctims were selected.)

[THE TSUNAMI IS DESCRIBED HERE, AND THE “CANGEL” ARE DESCRIBED]

“And they began to wait for it: the direction of the thatch grass, the direction of the sea. The deluge of water, a storm of water, then reached the hearts of the Four Cangel, who radiated in (the) heaven(s), and also radiated on the land. Said the Four who are Gods, the Four who are Fathers of the Land: “This water shows them to their faces. Then let us finish the flattening of the lands.””

(The “Can”in Cangels has commonly been interpreted as “four”, but perhaps given this passage reading “Can” in its sense of “heavens” might make sense: the four heaven changers, the planets or something else?. The Bacabs now intercede.)

“The South Priest Xib Yuy then bore the North Alligator (Milky Way) Tree in the north. And then he bore the Entrance to (the) Heaven(s), the sign of the flattening of the lands. That is the North Alligator (Milky Way) Tree, said to be carried.

“And then he bore the West Alligator (Mikly Way) Tree to the seat of the black-breasted weaver bird.

“And then he bore the South Alligator (Milky Way) Tree to the sign of the flattening of the lands to seat the yellow-breasted weaver bird.

“And was seated the South Priest Xib Yuy, and the South Priest Oyal Mut. And then he bore the Center Alligator (Milky Way) Tree to the middle, signifying the flattening of the land.

“It is seated. Its being raised established the town. And the same when the return of the katun is fulfilled.”

Usually people believe what they want to believe until reality intrudes.

Now its a problem of locking the 52 year counts to absolute time,and identifying the ethnonyms and toponyms.It is also possible that the various mixtec number counts may contain quipu like records,as they vary in their colors, and breaks and bends in their strings.

Usually people believe what they want to believe until reality intrudes.