But this is exactly why I wanted you to continue...because there was something going on in there.

Thank you.

From the very beginning you have put yourself out there...expressed what you are feeling regardless of the repurcusions. You are supportive to everyone, caring...

As males...this process is so difficult. Not only does society resist the idea that a male can be victimized...we are assaulted with accusation, inuendo about the "liklihood" that we will offend.

As a survivor it is assumed that we can not or do not posess the ability to distinguish between thinking a thing and acting on it. We are raised to believe that the only acceptable emotion is anger.

That sucks. All of it...and it complicates the process.

So...you have history with being manipulated, history with the repurcussions and the way it destroys lives. Friends who have been entraped and certainly from your posts experience with the devastation that follows the decision some one makes to take their own life.

I understand now what you are saying and why you are so passionatte about this issue.

shadowkid
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
MemberMaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437

bryan your honesty is totaly cool and i think we have taken this discussion as far as it can go ,thanks for letting me ramble on about it and thanks for being so clear about why it might upset you . i'd rather talk about something else than cause anybody]to be triggerd ,good thread guys adam

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its not hard to fall when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

3 convictions in the last two years? this is acceptable to you? perverted justice got 320 last year .

Exactly. It is not about protecting anybody, only getting results. A large number of convinctions does not prove that immoral, unethical groups like Perverted Justice is effective. It only demonstrates that their tactics succeed in getting the incriminating statements they want.

Quote:

if you have the stomach for it ,go to perverted justice website and read the chat logs...read it before you say somebody got lured in .

I have read their chat logs. All I can say is that just because Perverted Justice behind the veneer of "protecting" child does not change its volunteers' clearly perp-like behavior. I would never allow any volunteers from that groups or others like it anywhere near a child.

_________________________
Every day I die again, and again Iím reborn/Every day I have to find the courage/To walk out into the street/With arms out/Got a love you canít defeat/Neither down nor out/Thereís nothing you have that I need/I can breathe/Breathe now - U2

I think the show is also an example of horrible journalism, where the journalist violates every rule of true journalism, by involving himself in the story.

I don't watch this show much -- and I will say, the people they catch mostly seem like creeps. But in fact, they aren't catching those who are actually rapists -- and many that they catch seem to have a strange mental illness, in which it seems like they showed up, knowing what it was, possibly because they wanted to see themselves on TV.

I wonder if there are examples of people who were mentally ill, or mentally handicapped (i.e. very low IQ) who they played mind games with, long enough that they got them to respond in a way they wouldn't have in normal life.

That said, most of the guys are probably real creeps, on the verge of doing something very bad.

But that doesn't excuse the "good guys" from violating the constitution, using entrapment techniques, colluding with renegade journalists, etc.

I also think the fact that they do little to nothing to educate people about the laws in the areas they are doing the stings, shows a desire for show-biz, and a lack of desire for educating the public about what the law is regarding this behavior.

I think the tactics used have actually resulted in many lost convictions, i.e. prosecutors failed to press charges, because of lack of evidence that would hold up in court.

I also noticed that in a recent episode, half of the people pled innocent.

In everyday life, very very very few people pleed innocent to any crime.

If half of these guys pleed innocent on some of these shows, it is because the lawyers are wise to some serious legal faults in the tactics used in the stings.

That said, most of the guys are clearly nasty individuals who at the very least, need serious mental health treatment, at the very least.

But I wonder what real progress could be made if rather than spending so much money on the cameras, cameramen, etc, they spent this money testing rape kits against prisoner/offender DNA samples, to catch those who have already raped?

Oprah had a show several years ago, that exposed that while many police agencies are out spending their budgets chasing down marijuana, etc they are failing to spend funds needed to test these rape kits. Victims submit to these procedures, and many times they are just stored and never used.

A lot of time and money in law enforcement is used in chatrooms, etc approaching people who are NOT INTERESTED in illegal underage stuff.

I believe law enforcement has actually gone into gay community meetings, meetings of law abiding adults, and approached people with entrapment. These things don't work 99.999 times, because the people are rational adults, and aren't interested in the stuff being offered...but it nonetheless hurts their self esteem

I personally don't even go into chatrooms because of this. Several times years ago, I saw this stuff, and received messages like that - where people were identifying themselves as under age (15) and asking to get together for sex. I said I wasn't interested. I didn't know if I was personally being targeted (paranoia told me I must be being personally targeted - counselors said it was probably part of a larger sting in the area, and that the fact I wasn't interested shows I'm a good person)But I think it could have been to go after gays.

Of course this could also have been a real person that age, but I doubt it - because I saw this type of stuff happen several times - sometimes with very similar wording, and I think it was some sort of sting trying to entrap consenting gay adults. Of course they probably do this in hetero chats too

But I could see how someone who wasn't interested could be harassed by this.I found myself questioning why it happened, why me, etc, at a pretty young age, in my early and mid 20s, seeing those messages, I felt targeted. I didn't fall for their game, their entrapment, and I know well the laws, and respect them and wasn't looking to meet anyone that wasn't of age. -

But as a victim, who didn't really realize I was at the time,and at that, myself a victim of child rape (I was molested when I was young) the fact that they were approaching people who had no interest, like myself, was in a way victimizing innocent people like me -- by sending weird chat messages.

But these people doing these stings have no appreciation for the fact that they could be victimizing many people, who have no interest in their sick insinuations -- just by sending strange messages in chat rooms or by instant messenger.

They don't care that they could be hurting or victimizing adults.They are walking a very fine line, between trying to help the public, protect kids -- and doing the opposite by violating the law themselves, disrespecting our constitution, attempting to entrap people.

But it shows that either I was being targeted, or someone was casting a wide net, trying to entrap random people, probably the latter.Of course, I also stopped talking to people in chat rooms because I ran across several people who seemed like they were looking to victimize adults too - and I didn't want to be harmed by some creep. Online chats are dangerous places.

The problem with this technique though is that it is wrong - and if taken to an extreme could entrap innocent people.

By the way, I heard that with the catch a predator show they sometimes only provide PARTIAL tran>

shadowkid
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
MemberMaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437

i wanted to post this message from a former well respected member of this site who got so fed up with this protect the perp bullshit that he left

Researching boylovers? For gods sake, they should be fucking shot. How about research into what the victims want? Not what you offer, what we actually want? You dont give a shit do you? You offer 1 sized shoe and if it doesnt fit we have to walk barefoot.

This is morality and ethics gone mad with political correctness.

We come here for help, you want to tie us here, you want us to be weak and do what you say, to feel sorry for ourselves and woe is me, pity pity....

Well it doesnt fit with me, so I will be leaving forthwith.

Early next year I will be setting up my own site based in the UK ( which will have all that is offered here except WE WILL be able to fight back, it will be actively encouraged.

We will even teach you how to do so safely and legally so when you go to bed at night you can sleep easily knowing that you've done your bit.

Take it to them, dont sit back and wait for the next boy to be raped or murdered and then say "oh its a fucking pity that, what a bad man he is"

Try and stop it before it happens, heap on as much pressure, educate, spread the word.

please understand that this is not aimed at ms or the peope in charge ,it is just to show that we DO NOT HAVE TO BE MEEK AND MILD VICTIMS FOREVER.

Edited by shadowkid (08/24/0707:34 AM)

_________________________
its not hard to fall when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

Very confusing message. Don't know if it was directed at my post or the others.

In my post, I was pointing out that by violating the constitution, engaging in entrapping type of operations, not providing full "evidence" they are actually losing cases.

I myself am a victim of rapists, when I was a child. I do not think any rapist should get off the hook.

But I don't think resources should be wasted spending countless thousands of work hours in chat rooms - while ignoring rape kits with DNA evidence from people who were raped.

Now, as for the comment "going after boy lovers" not sure what this refers to, possibly someone else's comments.Consenting gay adults in a public chatroom, who are seeking to chat with other consenting gay adults, are not "boy lovers", if you are referring to underage boys.That's homophobia at its worst, trying to confuse pedophiles with gays.

Most pedophiles go after young girls, and by definition are going after underage people.

In the USA it is not illegal to be a homosexual, or a bisexual or a heterosexual for that matter. Sex is not illegal.

Sex with underage people, namely under the age of consent, or raping people is illegal.Law enforcement needs to go after rapists. And when victims come forward, especially right after an incident, and a hospital and the victim goes to the trouble of collecting forensic evidence (rape kit) the victim should be confident that the information is used.

But in many cases it is not. It sits on a shelf for lack of budgeting, while money is wasted on fruitless stings that go after those who haven't committed a crime.

I see nothing politically correct about making this point.

The catch a predator series is very very controversial here in the USA.

It is also controversial because it pulls would be predators into a particular area, from far away places like a magnet. There is actually an uproar about that angle too. People afraid that it may bring rapists to their neighborhood.

The predator series as far as I know, mostly deals with heterosexuals anyway. Men going after what they believe are young girls, underage.

To the extent that they catch people who have this intention, that may be a good thing - but they do waste a lot of law enforcement resources chasing after people who ultimately get off free because prosecutors don't find enough evidence for a case.

Again, while those who were raped are sometimes put on the back shelf.

Now, as for what I said about public internet chatrooms and entrapment. What I've seen is that it is random harassment of law abiding citizens. I've heard of this happening to heterosexuals as well.

If they approach someone online, who isn't engaged in anything illegal, they are wasting resources and victimizing that person.

There is no legal constitutional basis for this in the USA, nor is it morally correct.

If they are simply targeting homosexuals -- or heterosexuals for that matter, who are looking to meet other consenting adults...then they are violating their duties and the freedom of democracy.

Clearly, they could simply watch these rooms and go after anyone asking for something illegal or underage.

Now, if you, or the subject of the post you repeated, believes that consenting adults seeking other consenting adults, who happen to be homosexual, should be researched, then that idea is fanatical at best. And it would show a severe prejudice at that. It is also anti-democratic, and in violation of laws and court rulings in the USA (and the UK for that matter, where homosexuality is not illegal either)

Perhaps you were only referring to people going after underage people, under the age of consent. In that case, of course they should stop that activity. Just don't cast a wide net.... that victimizes people who aren't engaging in that activity.

Period.

Again, though, not sure about the post, because Catch a Predator mostly deals with men going after young girls.

Why is it that they don't go after all those rapists in the Catholic (and other) churches? If they raided those churches, and secured the hidden files, with notes of the coverups for the past 30 or 40 years, they'd find a wealth of information on priests and ministers who raped children and are still in positions of authority.

I am a victim of these sickos.

I also happen to be gay.I have a long term relationship with a very loving man. And our relationship has been damaged by memories of the fact that I was raped as a child.

What Shadowkid has done is quote an earlier post from a member here who rebelled against the 'protect the perp' mentality. I don't think it was directed at anything in your previous post.

I'm sensitive to the politically correct fuck-ups that seem to give these perverts more options than they deserve. But I'm also sensitive to the abuse of the consitiution which was designed to protect us all from the minions of our government, who in the name of righteousness feel that the end always justifies the means. I DO NOT agree with that philosophy.

As I said before, I think PJ is a double edged sword; if the guys who show up for their 'date' with an underaged kid were entrapped, enticed, lied to, cajoled, whatever... I don't care. If they would do it then they would do it elsewhere and they are predators. I say shame on them and they deserve what they got. Is it decietful? Yes. Is it productive? Yes, but less so than other means would be. Is it moral? Well, I've seen 14 yr old boys and girls flirt like you wouldn't believe, and I've always shut them down in the strongest possible way... but they are out there, exploring their sexuality and finding their power. The illusions that PJ uses to lure it's victims are not as rare or uncommon as one might think. So if these guys took the bait... I think it's fair to say that they would have taken the bait from a REAL 15 yr old...

It's not a perfect world, and it's a shame that a TV show that feeds the public's purient interests is the only way to finance this kind of sting operation. But I don't want them to have free reign; that's what the lawyers are for. Surely there must be a better way, but for the time being this is one way.

IMHO

Lazarus

_________________________
"That which does not kill us, surely makes us stonger." - Neitsche

shadowkid
WARNING from ModTeam, September 2013: user "Shadowkid" was exposed as a hoaxer. His entire online persona and stories of sexual abuse were fiction. We encourage you not to become emotionally concerned by anything you see in any of his posts. Thank you
MemberMaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 2437

question?when did this turn into anything having to do with people being gay!!!!!!!!!!!!! no that has nothing to do with this and it sounds like heterophobia to me,heh dont hear that word very often do we? i am not gay ,but i lived with a gay couple for over a year . after my abuse and it was the only safe place i had ,so no this has nothing to do with being gay . also perverted justice does do the same sting using a boy. its a misunderstanding to think pj just goes to a town and sets up a sting ,its law enforcement that requsts their help! all the post i copied is for is to show that there are survivors who are not sitting on their ass waiting for somebody else to do something ,anything to stop child abuse. they are activly trying to help .and no body thats an upstanding citizen is going to get caught up in this. also it does not violate anybodys rights ,its been proven in court repeatedly, what d a is gonna use eveidence thats not leagal?im gonna go out on a limb here and just say that due to the severity of my own personal abuse ,i cannot fathom anybody thinking busting these sick bastards is wrong . i just dont get it,he broke my fucking fingers!raped me for 97 days day and nights, tried to beat me to death! so yeah i dont care what it takes i dont care if its leagal cause the only other alternitve is to just hunt them down and blow them away,and other than going to prison i see nothing wrong with doing that either!

_________________________
its not hard to fall when you float like a cannonball - damien rice

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