I did a search and found some info on this and am re-asking the question
because I am looking for some possibly some new opinions on this.:dunno:

So if this is a horse beaten to death for you just don't reply don't mean to irritate anyone.

thanks all

Japle

12-13-2011, 09:24

Sure, why not? If you can conceal a main gun, you probably have some room for a BUG.

I carry my XDm 3.8 9MM on my right side and a P3AT in my left front pocket. That way, there's a gun available to each hand.
If I'm close to people I don't know and have no reason to trust, I just put my left hand in my pocket on the .380. It makes for a fast, sneaky draw.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y145/Japle/Guns/XDmJPointandP3AT.jpg

RYT 2BER

12-13-2011, 09:29

If you can do it, I guess it isnt a problem... I do not however feel the need to... One is enough for me

BamaBud

12-13-2011, 09:32

One for each hand ALWAYS. Never know how someone/something can "trap" your hand(s).

And a hand in the pocket, gripping the BUG, doesn't tip anyone off. A lot less than a hand on main weapon in holster.

xmanhockey7

12-13-2011, 10:13

Def carry a BUG. One thing I like about shoulder holsters is the ability to draw with my right or left hand.

up1911fan

12-13-2011, 12:32

I carry either a Ruger LCR or LCP in my left front pocket. Glock on the right hip.

Lt Scott 14

12-13-2011, 12:48

Yep, if you have a BUG, why not carry? Weak side draw is a good defense if your main CCW is not available. Faster than a mag change, or speedloader anytime. Check Mas Ayoob, or Jim Cirrilo's publications if you have any second thoughts. Your life is entitled to the best tools to survive in this world.

up1911fan

12-13-2011, 13:02

Yep, if you have a BUG, why not carry? Weak side draw is a good defense if your main CCW is not available. Faster than a mag change, or speedloader anytime. Check Mas Ayoob, or Jim Cirrilo's publications if you have any second thoughts. Your life is entitled to the best tools to survive in this world.

While I do carry a BUG, I don't think it's any faster to drop the primary, draw the BUG from the pocket with the support hand and either fire or transfer the the dominant hand than it is to do a mag change.

Shootinbil

12-13-2011, 13:54

I carry 2 S&W J frame 638 and 49 one in my front pant pocket ( right side) and one in my coat pocket ( right side). In black hawk pocket holsters.

But seriously. Why not carry two BUG's? Three? A backup makes sense when you are LE or Mil and your weapon is a first line tool. As a civilian your pistol is at least your third or fourth line of defense. At that level carrying yet another gun is pointless.

Clay1

12-13-2011, 18:47

wasn't it Clint Smith that said 2 is one and one is none?

I recall his quote as: One is none, two is OK and three - "now you have something".

freeride88

12-13-2011, 19:13

I carry a backup on duty, but rarely off-duty. Frankly, I just don't have the pocket space for a backup, with the wallet, badge case, cell phone, knives, keys, etc.

collim1

12-13-2011, 19:33

I carry a BUG on duty. Rarely carry one off-duty. I do carry a spare magazine off-duty.

nursetim

12-13-2011, 20:40

Illegal in nm.

Clutch Cargo

12-14-2011, 14:16

I've carried up to 3 at one time.

tuica

12-14-2011, 14:27

Really! - My G36 (45ACP - Big Bullets!), that I have on my hip as I type this in the dangerous County Library might be viewed by some as not adequate defense or even counted as none? What neighborhoods do y'all travel through? And how many gunfights per week? Not trying to be too critical - but one can sometimes take any concept to a unreasonable level. Have a safe and Merry Christmas.

1. You probably don't need a gun much
2. If you do, you probably won't shoot it.
3. If it is a some financially motivated crook, deterrence with one gun probably works.
4. But what if you get into a really intensive critical incident - and this does happen:

a. You can't get at your dominant gun - injury or grabbed. Ever notice how folks get shot in the gun hand in FOF?
b. Your primary bellies up. Happens all the time in matches, so it's a possibilty.

Thus, the bug is for the screwup in a really intensive incident. Not the waving a gun at a mugger at a distance who flees.

You decided the risk level you want to deal with. You probably don't need a gun at all.

But if you get into a serious fight - do you want to be prepared for the screwups? There are quite small bugs that probably won't impact you much. Yes, they don't have MEGABLASTER stopping power for that meth head, zombie, giant football coach who is love with you.

I suggest a NAA 22 S minirevolver (that's joke - I have one). A 380, J frame, small 9 - they work. Do I always carry one - no - that's my risk analysis or lack there off.

But my point is to drop the dangerous neighborhood silliness. Once a gun fight starts, by definition all neighborhoods are dangerous. If yuppie moms or denizens of some crappy part of town are attacking - that's dangerous.

Cream Soda Kid

12-14-2011, 16:01

Yes, I believe it’s wise to carry a back up gun. There are many good reasons to do so.

Many here at GLOCKTALK will tell you it’s unnecessary, many will tell you it’s a good idea.

I do because what if you lose your primary weapon in the course of a fight? A back up gun could save your bacon. I don’t see a down side to having a back up.

xmanhockey7

12-14-2011, 16:04

Carrying a BUG can be argued the same as why would you carry a gun in the first place. Rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

OctoberRust

12-14-2011, 16:16

He was talking about 1911's. :whistling:

But seriously. Why not carry two BUG's? Three? A backup makes sense when you are LE or Mil and your weapon is a first line tool. As a civilian your pistol is at least your third or fourth line of defense. At that level carrying yet another gun is pointless.

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

IhRedrider

12-14-2011, 16:48

But seriously. Why not carry two BUG's? Three? A backup makes sense when you are LE or Mil and your weapon is a first line tool. As a civilian your pistol is at least your third or fourth line of defense. At that level carrying yet another gun is pointless.

I hope you are kidding or just haven't thought this out. Do you really want to live where ANYONE'S, much less a LEO's FIRST line of defense is a gun. I thought LEOs are suppose to be held to an even HIGHER standard of conduct then a non-LEO. I guess with that line of thinking, it explains a lot of bad conduct by bad LEOs. And before anyone jumps in with wrong assumptions. I am NOT saying that all LEOs are bad, only some. The unfortunate thing is, the bad ones are the ones that stick out and give all LEOs a bad name. So the only thing I would say to the good LEOs is, if you are doing nothing to weed out the bad LEOs, then you deserve the bad reputation they give you.

1. You probably don't need a gun much
2. If you do, you probably won't shoot it.
3. If it is a some financially motivated crook, deterrence with one gun probably works.
4. But what if you get into a really intensive critical incident - and this does happen:

a. You can't get at your dominant gun - injury or grabbed. Ever notice how folks get shot in the gun hand in FOF?
b. Your primary bellies up. Happens all the time in matches, so it's a possibilty.

Thus, the bug is for the screwup in a really intensive incident. Not the waving a gun at a mugger at a distance who flees.

You decided the risk level you want to deal with. You probably don't need a gun at all.

But if you get into a serious fight - do you want to be prepared for the screwups? There are quite small bugs that probably won't impact you much. Yes, they don't have MEGABLASTER stopping power for that meth head, zombie, giant football coach who is love with you.

I suggest a NAA 22 S minirevolver (that's joke - I have one). A 380, J frame, small 9 - they work. Do I always carry one - no - that's my risk analysis or lack there off.

But my point is to drop the dangerous neighborhood silliness. Once a gun fight starts, by definition all neighborhoods are dangerous. If yuppie moms or denizens of some crappy part of town are attacking - that's dangerous.

I agree, good post.

Guns fail. I have seen it time and time again on the range. Glocks, Sigs, Beretta's etc..Sometimes reliable guns jam. Bad mags and ammo are most common cause.

bustedknee

12-14-2011, 21:35

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d98/leflers/NAA.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d98/leflers/Stinger.jpg

happyguy

12-14-2011, 21:44

While I do carry a BUG, I don't think it's any faster to drop the primary, draw the BUG from the pocket with the support hand and either fire or transfer the the dominant hand than it is to do a mag change.

The New York reload made a lot of sense when everyone was carrying revolvers. It's not quite the same since most of us now carry semi-auto's. But having a gun available to the off hand isn't a bad idea in my book.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

happyguy

12-14-2011, 21:48

One time I carried a SW 442 J-Frame at 2:00, a G19 at 4:00, a G23 at 8:00, a G26 at 10:00 and a P3AT in my right rear pocket, just to see if I could pull it off.

All weapons were accessible and concealed but if I had fallen in the swimming pool I would have surely drowned.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

Lord

12-14-2011, 22:32

Illegal in nm.

Irrelevant in context.

xmanhockey7

12-14-2011, 22:53

Illegal in nm.

My understand is you can carry a BUG but you'll have to OC to have that option.

barth

12-15-2011, 01:18

Urban legend or not.
The notion you may draw a second gun faster than reload,
or clear a jam, makes sense to me.

My 11.6 oz J-Frame carries like it's not even there - till I need it.
https://www.t-mobilepictures.com/myalbum/photos/photo10/40/6d/2f91bc77e62d__1310338634000.jpeg

Warp

12-15-2011, 02:09

If I could easily carry a BUG, I would. Since I can't, I don't. If you can, go for it.

NEOH212

12-15-2011, 03:59

I don't normally carry a second gun with me but I have nothing wrong with the concept. Two are better than one! :wavey:

PlasticGuy

12-15-2011, 09:06

I can see a lot of merit in carrying a back up on duty. My primary issue gun is a rifle, and I always have a handgun as back up. If my primary was a handgun, I'd have another on me as a back up.

That said, I very rarely carry a second gun when I'm not working. My primary weapon on my own time is awareness and avoidance. I do carry a mid or full sized handgun in a full power caliber at all times, make sure it can be accessed with either hand, and almost always have at least one spare magazine.

Gray_Rider

12-17-2011, 19:19

I carry a BUG almost everytime I go out armed. Sometimes a 2nd BUG or additional magazine. I have carried four guns on occasion, to see if it could be done comfortably, and unnoticed. If you ever get into deep hot water, an extra gun (or two), couldn't hurt. Another reason I carry more than one, is to give to my wife when we are out together or to leave with her if we are to be separated say during a shopping trip.
Nice to be able to leave her with a gun if she is waiting in the car with my son and, say, I have to return to the store. I'm still armed. We have an understanding. If something dangerous comes up, she is to leave me behind if I cannot get to the car with her and my son in time. Her first duty is to get my son (and herself) to safety. If need be, I will cover her retreat, and deal with the threat as best I can.

Gray_Rider
Deo Vindice!

Unreconstructed.
Lest we forget....

Bill Lumberg

12-18-2011, 07:09

Bushflyr is correct. I wouldn't call it pointless, but definitely a bit contrived for ccw. He was talking about 1911's. :whistling:

But seriously. Why not carry two BUG's? Three? A backup makes sense when you are LE or Mil and your weapon is a first line tool. As a civilian your pistol is at least your third or fourth line of defense. At that level carrying yet another gun is pointless.

Darkangel1846

12-18-2011, 10:09

Hello

I did a search and found some info on this and am re-asking the question
because I am looking for some possibly some new opinions on this.:dunno:

So if this is a horse beaten to death for you just don't reply don't mean to irritate anyone.

thanks all

If you think you need a bug, then carry one....thats the answer.:wavey:

Glotin

12-18-2011, 13:49

I'll occasionally carry my LCP in my left front jacket pocket in lieu of an extra mag. It's not at all inconvenient to me... so why not?

I also live in an urban area in the 3rd most dangerous state that can get less than friendly at night. (No, I can't move)

I think a BUG is a great option.

What if I'm pushed up against a wall and thus unable to draw my primary?
What if my right arm is for whatever reason unavailable?

The notion that "What I carry is exactly right and anything more is ridiculous and anything less is stupid" is childish at best and clearly short sighted.

doktarZues

12-18-2011, 14:02

The chance of needing a gun is close to zero. The chance of needing a gun and your primary fail (assuming it is properly tested and maintained) is close to zero.

"Get injured and you can't draw your primary"? Surrre.. We could be an antfarm experiment from an alien civilization and we could start preparing for the beam up to our home planet Zircon tomorrow, too (hey, it could happen).

(CloseToZero * CloseToZero) = ReallyCloseToZero

(Cause U, please ME, equals US, I know my Calc-U-Lus)

I really thing BUGs for the vast majority of people and situations is superfluous by a wide margin.

Glenn E. Meyer

12-18-2011, 14:13

To each his or her own.

The risks are real. We all just decide what level to accept.

If one adds up the total time of your life, the percentage of time you need a gun is close to zero also for the average human.

So is the average amount of time you need the fire department or a cardiac surgeon.

Misunderstanding of statistics is strong in the gun world - young Jedi!

It is when you get into the low probability branch of a civilian gun fight that then you want to worry about your gun failing (well maintained guns do fail in manners that can't be predicted - shoot alot and see), you get shot in the primary hand (all the time in FOF), you are in close quarters (again - see FOF).

So my take is that you probably won't need a bug but those who view those who carry one reasonable one as silly are themselves, just posturing.

It's the insulting tone rather than the rational discussion of the risk that makes their comments not productive. I'm sooo much smarter than you and you are nutty.

doktarZues

12-18-2011, 14:14

Carrying a BUG can be argued the same as why would you carry a gun in the first place. Rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

Flawed. One that is serious and responsible about personal safety, with their wits about them, can argue and win that point all day long (that it's better to have a gun and not need it). Using that login toward a BUG becomes superfluous and could easily put you into an infinite sequence of preparedness requirements. Mind you, these threads typically revolve around "every day carry." E.g., If I was a cop, or if I had to go work on rental property in a really bad neighborhood, I'd consider grabbing a BUG that day.

Do I want to carry gun to be able to defend my life if necessary? Yes
Do I want a reserve parachute if I'm jumping out a plane? Yes
Do I want to carry an extra gun around every day because my primary (which has been sufficiently confidence tested) might fail? No

All my opinion of course.

xmanhockey7

12-18-2011, 14:54

All my opinion of course.

Of course. If you don't want to carry a BUG don't carry one. For me I see no reason not to. If I'm carrying in a shoulder holster I put a pocket gun in my front right pocket and it's one of those things where I forget that it's there. Doesn't weigh me down doesn't interfere with anything.

steveksux

12-18-2011, 15:05

I sometimes carry a bug in weak side pocket. I don't think I'll ever need two guns. Doubt I'll ever even need just one. But if I need one, I'm just not sure which one, which hand would be free at that moment. Being able to draw from strong side with weak hand isn't impossible, but I don't think its likely to be successful in close quarters in a struggle. It seems more like a good way to hand a pistol to the guy attacking you. Works better if you're behind cover and strong side is injured. You need time and distance to pull it off.

Sometimes strong side is occupied fending off an attack, or injured in the process or an initial surprise attack. I have had my G19 malfunction, but that was my fault for putting off maintenance, not really worried about that.

You can also put a hand on the bug in your pocket if you think something fishy is going on without arousing suspicions or creating a scene that can't be undone like reaching for a holstered firearm on your hip does.

I don't think stuff goes down the way you expect. Assuming you'll always be able to get to the primary quickly under any likely attack scenario seems to be more unreasonable to me than carrying a BUG. I think of it more like an alternate rather than a backup. Way more likely to grab the BUG as the first option if it ends up being used. The odds against actually needing both are truly astronomical.

But I'm a computer guy, not a cop or a gunslinger, so what do I know. First rule in computers is always have a good backup... :tongueout::rofl:

Actually that's the 2nd rule. First rule is never store your resume with your system backups. If you can't restore your system backups, you're gonna need the resume...

Randy

John Rambo

12-18-2011, 15:08

The real question is:

Do you need a BUG for your BUG?

steveksux

12-18-2011, 15:09

The real question is:

Do you need a BUG for your BUG?Of course, that goes without saying.

The BUG for your BUG is your primary. If you didn't have a primary, your BUG wouldn't be a BUG, by definition. If you don't have a primary, your BUG is your primary. :tongueout::supergrin:

Randy

happyguy

12-18-2011, 15:11

The real question is:

Do you need a BUG for your BUG?

If you have too many BUGs you might need to call ORKIN.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

Glenn E. Meyer

12-19-2011, 11:03

One does not get into an infinite loop of increasing preparedness if one understands reasonable risk analysis. Just because you carry a gun at all, doesn't mean you have to carry an infinite number of weapons.

It means that you are preparing for a gun fight and if you are in that branch, do you prepared for a reasonable risk NOW that you are in the fight.

Those risks, reasonably could be:

1. Gun or mag failure
2. Close up, can't get to primary - of course, folks have such awesome situational awarness that no one gets close to them - haha.
3. Gun hand disabled and bug on other side.

These three are seen in real life and in force on force. Thus, it's not stupid or nutty to carry a bug. Do we always - No - because we are lazy or play the odds.

Should we set the criterion level with 2 bugs and body armor. That runs up against inconvenience costs vs. risks. Your choice. But one Bug isn't that inconvenient.

cowboy1964

12-19-2011, 11:10

Most people can't even be bothered to carry a spare mag for their main; they're not going to carry a BUG.

When was the last time you heard about a CCWer actually NEEDING a BUG? I suppose it could happen but I have yet to hear of a case. I know someone will say "well you might be the first....". Well there is a chance I could empty four mags and still run out too. One can get into endless scenario cherry picking.

Glenn E. Meyer

12-19-2011, 11:27

Missed the point. To each his own.

John Rambo

12-19-2011, 12:07

Most people can't even be bothered to carry a spare mag for their main; they're not going to carry a BUG.

When was the last time you heard about a CCWer actually NEEDING a BUG? I suppose it could happen but I have yet to hear of a case. I know someone will say "well you might be the first....". Well there is a chance I could empty four mags and still run out too. One can get into endless scenario cherry picking.

Oh no. You're in for it now, brother!

PAGunner

12-19-2011, 20:51

I carry a BUG usually, but I don't feel uncomfortable not carrying one. Some people think you're nuts for carrying a BUG, hell other people think you're nuts carrying 1 gun, IMO do what you want, if you feel comfortable carrying a BUG, then do so, if you feel like you're walking around like you're Arnold Schwarzenneger in Commando ready to storm an Island as a 1 man army, then don't do it.

Oh and sometimes I carry an extra mag for my main gun AND a BUG. Or sometimes I carry just a BUG, or Just a main gun, or my main gun and extra mag. Whatever I feel I can carry comfortably I carry, if my attire doesn't allow me to comfortably carry something, then I don't.

PAGunner

12-19-2011, 20:59

The chance of needing a gun is close to zero. The chance of needing a gun and your primary fail (assuming it is properly tested and maintained) is close to zero.

I'm not exactly sure where brevard county is, but come to south Florida and your chances of needing a gun with all the 3rd world zombies walking around is much higher than close to zero. I can count 6 people that I knew growing up, maybe higher than this, but 6 who were murdered up in NY, that needed a gun but did not have 1. Where their chances of needing a gun close to zero also? Maybe I need to move to the town you live in, might give me a different perspective on things, but unfortunately we live in a violent world.

Glotin

12-19-2011, 21:32

Most people can't even be bothered to carry a spare mag for their main; they're not going to carry a BUG.

When was the last time you heard about a CCWer actually NEEDING a BUG? I suppose it could happen but I have yet to hear of a case. I know someone will say "well you might be the first....". Well there is a chance I could empty four mags and still run out too. One can get into endless scenario cherry picking.

I've heard of it.

Just because you haven't doesn't mean anything.

Warp

12-19-2011, 21:36

When was the last time you heard about a CCWer actually NEEDING a BUG? I suppose it could happen but I have yet to hear of a case.

You've never heard of a case where the gun jammed or malfunctioned?

happyguy

12-19-2011, 21:37

Most people can't even be bothered to carry a spare mag for their main; they're not going to carry a BUG.

When was the last time you heard about a CCWer actually NEEDING a BUG? I suppose it could happen but I have yet to hear of a case. I know someone will say "well you might be the first....". Well there is a chance I could empty four mags and still run out too. One can get into endless scenario cherry picking.

Google Lance Thomas.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

Warp

12-19-2011, 21:40

Google Lance Thomas.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

You mean the jewelry store employee who was robbed multiple times and defended himself with several firearms he had sitting at various locations behind the counter?

argy1182

12-19-2011, 22:04

Do whatever you like...I don't have the need for one.

happyguy

12-19-2011, 22:10

You mean the jewelry store employee who was robbed multiple times and defended himself with several firearms he had sitting at various locations behind the counter?

That would be the gentleman.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

Hour13

12-19-2011, 22:42

Google Lance Thomas.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

+100 If anybody hasn't read this story, check it out. Incredible.

Way beyond what 99.9% of us civilians will likely ever run into, but (still!)living proof that .1% is still something.

Amazing guy, able to keep cool in insane situations. And in the end, made a difficult decision, in order to keep innocents safe.

I personally don't carry a BUG on me. Half the time, I don't carry a spare mag(I know, I know). But there's a mag in my glovebox. And though I try to avoid 'em, if I know I'm going to a questionable area, I have a bare bones 7+1 shortened 12ga that I toss in the car.

KCHORNS

12-19-2011, 23:02

I don't go anywhere that more than 1 gun or 5 bullets are needed. :rofl:

Glotin

12-19-2011, 23:06

Cowboy1964:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZ29lGSPPV8

Massad Ayoob; one of his reasons for carrying a BUG: "The second gun certainly gives you fall back if the primary jams, breaks, is taken from you, is knocked out of your hand, etc, etc. We've documented a great many cases where that has happened."

45 Cal

12-20-2011, 09:10

The Lance Thomas story was impressive. I'm not sure I'd have stayed as long....thinking after the first 3 robbery attempts, I'd opt for a nice little shop in the suburbs.

Personally, I can see the logic with carrying an additional weapon. The only real hang up that I can see, is that a lawyer would make the argument that you were looking for a fight. Sometimes even caliber selection will make a person look like a vigilante. If the defendant in a self defense shooting is carrying a 44 Magnum instead of a 9mm, lawyers will make an issue of it. I don't agree with them doing so....I'm just saying they will. Carrying an additional weapon, especially if the second weapon is the weapon used, can complicate things legally.

I personally try to avoid pulling the gun (as most of us do) I go for non-lethal force first (only when possible). Sometimes my primary weapon is a stun-gun or a retractable baton.

If the attacker has a gun however, I'm dropping his ass.

JEEPX

12-20-2011, 09:27

Sure.
A Kahr P9 IWB with a spare 8 round magazine, and always a Ruger LCP in my front pocket.

I had an M4 jam on me in the service. It was the only weapon I had. A buddy saved me.

I like the quote
One is none, two is one.
Sent from my DROID2 using Xparent Cyan Tapatalk

ZRiz19C

12-20-2011, 09:48

No reason for me to carry a BUG, so I don't.

Glenn E. Meyer

12-20-2011, 13:03

Never ending debate. Quite boring - isn't it by now. No reason to carry a gun. No reason to have ammo. No reason to eat breakfast - whatever.

The pro and cons are known. Most are protected by never being in a shots fired incident.

SCmasterblaster

12-20-2011, 13:49

I DO NOT carry a BUG. It is enough trouble to carry my G17. Whenever I go to the VA Hospital (at least twice per week) have to disarm myself completely. I am reduced to my 1.5-inch Spyderco folder. Six years in the USN doesn't matter, and neither does 20 years of safe G17 CCW. I carry an extra magazine for my G17, but I don't suppose that I'll need it with the initial 17 rounds of +p+ JHPs (9x19mm).

Gray_Rider

12-26-2011, 20:15

[QUOTE=SCmasterblaster;18312850]I DO NOT carry a BUG. It is enough trouble to carry my G17. Whenever I go to the VA Hospital (at least twice per week) have to disarm myself completely. I am reduced to my 1.5-inch Spyderco folder. Six years in the USN doesn't matter, and neither does 20 years of safe G17 CCW. I carry an extra magazine for my G17, but I don't suppose that I'll need it with the initial 17 rounds of +p+ JHPs (9x19mm).[

Thanks for your service SCmb. Your Glock 17, so stoked, should be a nasty surprise to those foolish enough to preturb you. I haven't been to many really dangerous places, but I have been by myself in the dark a few times when, shall we say, the icy hand danced on my spine. The .38 Snubbie in my coat pocket felt VERY comforting when the wind came a-whistling-down-the-pike as it were. The P32 in my front pants pocket assured me if the Snubbie went dry, the dance wasn't over....

Had I a Glock 17, maybe.........

My snubbie would have been my back up! :cool:

God bless. A long Rebel yell out to you! And Deo Vindice!

Gray_Rider

writwing

12-27-2011, 16:15

Hello

I did a search and found some info on this and am re-asking the question
because I am looking for some possibly some new opinions on this.:dunno:

So if this is a horse beaten to death for you just don't reply don't mean to irritate anyone.

thanks all

Personally I think it is over kill. Should you get a prosecutor looking to make political hay, its one more point against you.

xmanhockey7

12-27-2011, 17:17

Personally I think it is over kill. Should you get a prosecutor looking to make political hay, its one more point against you.

Really? Most states have protection against this as long as it's a legitimate SD shooting. If you're worried about a prosecutor then you really should just stop carrying a gun. They CAN try to make any argument against you.

Applying first aid:
If you do............"You must have felt bad about shooting that guy."
If you don't........."You clearly wanted this guy dead!"

Carrying hallow points:
If you do............."HP bullets are designed to kill ladies and gentlemen. The military can't even carry these type of bullets. And yet this man was!"
If you don't.........."Full metal jacket rounds are the same kind of bullets that the military uses! They can penetrate through jackets and other things well.I also have experts who say people shouldn't carry FMJ because they can over penetrate and yet the defendant carried those rounds."

How many other examples do you want?

Z28ricer

12-27-2011, 21:58

Really? Most states have protection against this as long as it's a legitimate SD shooting. If you're worried about a prosecutor then you really should just stop carrying a gun. They CAN try to make any argument against you.

Applying first aid:
If you do............"You must have felt bad about shooting that guy."
If you don't........."You clearly wanted this guy dead!"

Carrying hallow points:
If you do............."HP bullets are designed to kill ladies and gentlemen. The military can't even carry these type of bullets. And yet this man was!"
If you don't.........."Full metal jacket rounds are the same kind of bullets that the military uses! They can penetrate through jackets and other things well.I also have experts who say people shouldn't carry FMJ because they can over penetrate and yet the defendant carried those rounds."

How many other examples do you want?

Either of those take just a second to poke holes in fast.

1st, dont, he attacked me, wasnt going to get close enough for him to do it again.

2nd HP's, they minimize the risk of the bullet passing through and hitting someone else.

Have I carried a bug ? Plenty, am I right now or have I lately ? nope, will I again ? yes.

I've typically ankle carried my G27 or G33 as a bug to my 1911, though for me they've proven a bit heavy and cause me issues due to a knee injury.

Eventually i'll get the scandium/Ti s&w 360 and see if that doesnt work well as a replacement.

Its another one of those things, that isnt going to hurt to have if you've chosen properly, and is only likely to benefit you.

harrygunner

12-27-2011, 22:38

I add a J-Frame in an ankle holster when I'm driving long distances.

In my opinion, traveling is more dangerous than being in town. In a strange city, you may not know that a highway exit leads to a bad area. You are more likely to get lost and perhaps, encounter a bad situation. You'll spend more time than normal at gas stations, rest areas, motels, etc. So, I add a "BUG".

TX58

12-28-2011, 08:35

I recall his quote as: One is none, two is OK and three - "now you have something".

Actually, I think (think) it was "One is none, two is one and three is just a darn good time." :supergrin:

nikerret

12-28-2011, 08:56

I carry a backup on duty, but rarely off-duty. Frankly, I just don't have the pocket space for a backup, with the wallet, badge case, cell phone, knives, keys, etc.

I carry a BUG on duty. Rarely carry one off-duty.

These two^

Most people can't even be bothered to carry a spare mag for their main; they're not going to carry a BUG.

And this one for off-duty.

I don't even own a second magazine for my P3AT.

My off-duty is always a P3AT or a Glock 27, unless I'm carrying a backpack. Then, I carry the P229 (I like the double action since it's not on my person).

I don't carry spare mags for the G27 or the P226, ever.

Only time I carry spare mags is for my primary duty weapon, while on-duty.

My theory is:
Carrying is a hassle and i'm carrying less, not more.
Having a firearm is better than none.
If I need one, I'll be damn glad I had something

I do have a tendency to have more guns readily accessible.

steveksux

12-28-2011, 09:24

You mean the jewelry store employee who was robbed multiple times and defended himself with several firearms he had sitting at various locations behind the counter?That's the guy. He didn't have or need a BUG.

He had them hidden around the store, not on him.. :tongueout::rofl: Not on him, its not a BUG...

I don't recall now, did he even carry a gun on him at all, or were they all hidden behind the counter? Maybe he didnt' even have a primary! :tongueout::whistling:

Randy

Ryobi

12-28-2011, 09:29

Massive overkill for permit carry (not at all similar to "duty" carry), but if it's legal, and it makes you happy, carry a backup gun. As long as it's in a proper holster, it's not hurting anything.

1. You probably don't need a gun much
2. If you do, you probably won't shoot it.
3. If it is a some financially motivated crook, deterrence with one gun probably works.
4. But what if you get into a really intensive critical incident - and this does happen:

a. You can't get at your dominant gun - injury or grabbed. Ever notice how folks get shot in the gun hand in FOF?
b. Your primary bellies up. Happens all the time in matches, so it's a possibilty.

Thus, the bug is for the screwup in a really intensive incident. Not the waving a gun at a mugger at a distance who flees.

You decided the risk level you want to deal with. You probably don't need a gun at all.

But if you get into a serious fight - do you want to be prepared for the screwups? There are quite small bugs that probably won't impact you much. Yes, they don't have MEGABLASTER stopping power for that meth head, zombie, giant football coach who is love with you.

I suggest a NAA 22 S minirevolver (that's joke - I have one). A 380, J frame, small 9 - they work. Do I always carry one - no - that's my risk analysis or lack there off.

But my point is to drop the dangerous neighborhood silliness. Once a gun fight starts, by definition all neighborhoods are dangerous. If yuppie moms or denizens of some crappy part of town are attacking - that's dangerous.

My lifestyle (patch wearing biker) causes me to be in possible holstile situations on a regular basis. You can NEVER be too well armed.

FireForged

09-10-2012, 20:39

wasn't it Clint Smith that said 2 is one and one is none?

I agree that the mantra of redundancy but I believe that a great many people take it too literal.

One is not none.. One is better than none because if you have one then you can use one until you have none.

The same people so repeat the mantra (2) is one and (1) is none are the same people who coined the term... Army of one. :dunno:

Schlitz

09-10-2012, 20:46

You need to draw the line where you feel comfortable. Like someone has already mentioned, if you're staying out of trouble and bad areas, you probably won't even need one gun. If you do hit the crazy odds that you need your primary, what are the odds that you'll need a 2nd? And if you really believe for everyday carry you need two, why not carry a 3rd? a 4th? If you feel the need to carry two just save the time and sling a draco over your shoulder and duct tape a 2nd 30rd mag upside down to the loaded mag.:supergrin:

Glockbuster

09-11-2012, 13:00

My lifestyle (patch wearing biker) causes me to be in possible holstile situations on a regular basis. You can NEVER be too well armed.

There is absolutely no evidence to support this, unless you are in law enforcement-

Civilians seldom need one gun. If it is used it is not fired much. How many civilian shootings have you heard of or researched where the victim ran dry or needed two guns ?

Chris Chris

09-11-2012, 13:25

You can also put a hand on the bug in your pocket if you think something fishy is going on without arousing suspicions or creating a scene that can't be undone like reaching for a holstered firearm on your hip does.

I don't think stuff goes down the way you expect. Assuming you'll always be able to get to the primary quickly under any likely attack scenario seems to be more unreasonable to me than carrying a BUG. I think of it more like an alternate rather than a backup. Way more likely to grab the BUG as the first option if it ends up being used. The odds against actually needing both are truly astronomical.

Randy

THIS... this is why a BUG in a weak side pocket is a fine idea. You can have your hand wrapped around the grip of a gun (mine is a tuned Taurus 85 .38 with Speer 135 Gold Dot +P) and be totally inconspicuous... just someone with the normal 'nonchalant hand in the pocket' gesture.

Far different than making the obvious movement to place a hand on a hip holstered handgun... yet the snubby in your hand may either solve the situation, or allow you to reach your primary.

In the Real World, it's smart.

RussP

09-11-2012, 15:12

This is where we begin... I don't think stuff goes down the way you expect.Assuming you'll always be able to get to the primary quickly under any likely attack scenario seems to be more unreasonable to me than carrying a BUG.Okay...I think of it more like an alternate rather than a backup.Called "Plan B"...Way more likely to grab the BUG as the first option if it ends up being used.Far different than making the obvious movement to place a hand on a hip holstered handgun... yet the snubby in your hand may either solve the situation, or allow you to reach your primary.

In the Real World, it's smart.Personally, been there, done that.

Clutch Cargo

09-11-2012, 18:25

There is absolutely no evidence to support this, unless you are in law enforcement-

Civilians seldom need one gun. If it is used it is not fired much. How many civilian shootings have you heard of or researched where the victim ran dry or needed two guns ?

Do you have cause to interact with 1% motorcycle clubs on a regular basis like I do? Law enforcement has nowhere NEAR the amount of time with them as I do. There is no evidence, as club business is just that - club business.

To me "civilian" is a non-patch wearing person.

John Rambo

09-12-2012, 06:33

THIS... this is why a BUG in a weak side pocket is a fine idea. You can have your hand wrapped around the grip of a gun (mine is a tuned Taurus 85 .38 with Speer 135 Gold Dot +P) and be totally inconspicuous... just someone with the normal 'nonchalant hand in the pocket' gesture.

Far different than making the obvious movement to place a hand on a hip holstered handgun... yet the snubby in your hand may either solve the situation, or allow you to reach your primary.

In the Real World, it's smart.

:rofl: Brother, this thread left 'The Real World' a long time ago. I don't think talking about hiding a gun in your hand so you can fight your way to your hip to draw a different gun happens much in 'The Real World'...unless, I dunno, did MTV make a The Real World: Gunslinger yet?

Glockbuster

09-12-2012, 06:47

Do you have cause to interact with 1% motorcycle clubs on a regular basis like I do? Law enforcement has nowhere NEAR the amount of time with them as I do. There is no evidence, as club business is just that - club business.

To me "civilian" is a non-patch wearing person.

Are you unique to this situation ? Have others in this same position ever needed even one gun ? Shots fired ?
If it is so dangerous, I would consider other options before two guns. I would stay away from that sort of potential trouble.

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Clutch Cargo

09-12-2012, 11:28

Are you unique to this situation ? Have others in this same position ever needed even one gun ? Shots fired ?
If it is so dangerous, I would consider other options before two guns. I would stay away from that sort of potential trouble.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

Security is always a concern and most MCs are good at it. To maintain proper protocol, we have no choice but to be in certain places. That keeps the respect level up and maintains good relations.

Chris Chris

09-12-2012, 12:24

:rofl: Brother, this thread left 'The Real World' a long time ago. I don't think talking about hiding a gun in your hand so you can fight your way to your hip to draw a different gun happens much in 'The Real World'...unless, I dunno, did MTV make a The Real World: Gunslinger yet?

Actually, Rambo, I have been in several situations where I was approached by people whom I would not invite into my home, or willingly associate with. The situation, as we used to say when I was involved in LE, was 'looking hinky'.

Reaching under my shirt to place a hand on my strong side holstered M&P 9c would have been obvious and overt. It might have escallated the situation. My hand on a snubby, casually in my pocket, was comforting.

That, and my demeanor, sunk through to the undesirables. They recognized it for what it was and left with nothing more than a few jabber-jabber comments.

From the angle at which they approached me, they would have been on both sides (and in one case where it was three.. in front, as well). Tactically they had me in a position where my strong hand could have been neutralized. But, there wasn't a darned thing they could do about that left hand already in my pocket.

They were predators, and understood that this wasn't going to be as safe a strike as they preferred.

No historonics, no drawn guns, no shots fired. Incident closed. A casual observer would not even have realized what just took place.

In today's environment... that is Real World. Have you been there lately?

Rex G

09-12-2012, 12:27

I do not quote mantras, nor do I even subscribe to the "BUG" terminology; I just tend to carry two guns, and don't fret over such things as which one is primary. I do tend to wear one on my "strong" side hip, to facilitate a reflexive draw. A broken mainspring inside a revolver back in the 1980s taught me that anything can break, and since then, a second gun as been comforting.

I will say, early on, that I am not trying to convert anyone to the multi-gun lifestyle. We each have our comfort zone. We each choose our salvation. Each weapon is a big responsibility; more weapons means more responsibilty.

To get one disclaimer out of the way, I do wear a police badge for a living, but the second gun is just as comforting off the clock as at work; perhaps more comforting, as when off the clock, I do not have the police radio that allows me to instantly call for help, without dialing, and speak directly to the cavalry that is riding to my rescue, nor the mobile computer that lets me summon help by pushing one button, with a locator system that lets the dispatcher see my location by both GPS coordinates and street map, nor am I likely to be armored, nor carrying a variety of less-lethal options.

To get another disclaimer out of the way, I have fired a decisive defensive shot during a lethal force incident, the ultimate reality check!

I am functionally ambidextrous, actually tending to perform finer, skilled tasks lefty and larger, more gross skills rightie. Drawing and firing handguns is one of those activities that tends to meet in the middle, for me. It is normal for me to position one gun for optimal
access to the "support" hand. Accessibility options are good! Accessibility can also be tailored to varyng body positions, such as one rig being optimized for a draw while seated, and another being optimized for a draw while standing.

Carrying two guns can be more comfortable, from a phyical standpoint, all else being equal, as the load is balanced, or at least spread round a bit. When I have, on occasion, strained lower back muscles, a balanced load has seemed to reduce the likelihood of a spasm occurring. The benefits of a spread and/or balanced load are always there, of course, lessening fatigue.

I am lazy, and a procrastinator. It is often easier to carry another gun or two than to dial the combination on the big safe.

If one is hit by incoming gunfire, it may strike one's gun hand, or the weapon itself. A second gun can potentially mitigate this situation. Reading a detailed account of the 1986 FBI shootout in southern Florida provides several examples of back-up guns being used, and/or agents being in need of a second weapon, but not having one, to their cost. One need not be an FBI agent to be hit in the area of the hands or arms.

I have not read all of the posts in this thread, so I may well be repeating what others have said, but I am not parroting anybody. My post reflects my experience with second guns, plus tidbits learned from others, since the mid-1980s. I have previousy posted, in similar language, all of my points here, in various forums.

John Rambo

09-12-2012, 12:35

Actually, Rambo, I have been in several situations where I was approached by people whom I would not invite into my home, or willingly associate with. The situation, as we used to say when I was involved in LE, was 'looking hinky'.

Reaching under my shirt to place a hand on my strong side holstered M&P 9c would have been obvious and overt. It might have escallated the situation. My hand on a snubby, casually in my pocket, was comforting.

That, and my demeanor, sunk through to the undesirables. They recognized it for what it was and left with nothing more than a few jabber-jabber comments.

From the angle at which they approached me, they would have been on both sides (and in one case where it was three.. in front, as well). Tactically they had me in a position where my strong hand could have been neutralized. But, there wasn't a darned thing they could do about that left hand already in my pocket.

They were predators, and understood that this wasn't going to be as safe a strike as they preferred.

No historonics, no drawn guns, no shots fired. Incident closed. A casual observer would not even have realized what just took place.

In today's environment... that is Real World. Have you been there lately?

And I put my hand on my IWB gun all the time when approached by undesirables - looks like I'm putting my hands on my hips. Or I stick my hand in my pocket if I'm carrying a pocket pistol. They never notice either of 'em.

And I put my hand on my IWB gun all the time when approached by undesirables - looks like I'm putting my hands on my hips. Or I stick my hand in my pocket if I'm carrying a pocket pistol. They never notice either of 'em.

Rambo (suitable name for what you post). I have not had to shoot anybody since I left the military 30 some years ago, after Vietnam. The fact that I haven't indicates that my preferred carry system works very well.

YMMV... but to me the best usage of a self-defense handgun is to not have to use it. If its presence, or hint of its presence, prevents a lethal force situation, you have done just fine, and that SD gun has done its job. If that presence is a hand in the weak side pocket, things worked well, and I don't mind the extra weight.

I may be in the minority here, but I would rather not have to shoot somebody. Even if I'm totally in the right, a lawyer is still going to get a chunk of my money that I feel I could better spend on beer, ammo, new guns, and pistol matches. Why give those bucks to a lawyer if I can avoid a shooting?

Isn't the purpose of a SD handgun to protect its owner from harm? If you can do that, in whatever manner, without actually having to fire a shot, did the gun not serve its purpose?

I think it does... at least, in the Real World...but YMMV.

tuica

09-12-2012, 13:54

No - I still have not yet moved to Libya, nor Egypt! Cheers.

Glockbuster

09-12-2012, 14:11

Rambo (suitable name for what you post). I have not had to shoot anybody since I left the military 30 some years ago, after Vietnam. The fact that I haven't indicates that my preferred carry system works very well.

YMMV... but to me the best usage of a self-defense handgun is to not have to use it. If its presence, or hint of its presence, prevents a lethal force situation, you have done just fine, and that SD gun has done its job. If that presence is a hand in the weak side pocket, things worked well, and I don't mind the extra weight.

I may be in the minority here, but I would rather not have to shoot somebody. Even if I'm totally in the right, a lawyer is still going to get a chunk of my money that I feel I could better spend on beer, ammo, new guns, and pistol matches. Why give those bucks to a lawyer if I can avoid a shooting?

Isn't the purpose of a SD handgun to protect its owner from harm? If you can do that, in whatever manner, without actually having to fire a shot, did the gun not serve its purpose?

I think it does... at least, in the Real World...but YMMV.

I have nothing against a BUG, especially one like the model 36 you recently acquired. Not that I think I will ever need a second gun, but a lot of times my BUG becomes my one and only primary, simply because it is always with me.:wavey:

JW1178

09-12-2012, 14:36

Oh my... Look where this thread has gone!!!

I used to carry my little NAA mini revolver .22lr even when carrying my G27 but that's hardly even a backup gun. When I NEED a backup gun, at that point my handgun becomes the backup to my rifle.

Chris Chris

09-12-2012, 15:12

Oh my... Look where this thread has gone!!!

I used to carry my little NAA mini revolver .22lr even when carrying my G27 but that's hardly even a backup gun. When I NEED a backup gun, at that point my handgun becomes the backup to my rifle.

And when will you know that you NEED a back up gun? Will it be out for an evening restaraunt meal with your wife/date? Or will it be walking through a mall? Or, maybe stopping off late at night at a convenience store for an item you need the following day but forgot to pick up during earlier shopping trips? Or, maybe checking into a motel late at night while on the road and parking in the dark?

Where will your rifle be then?

shadow_dog

09-12-2012, 17:18

I never have but I will after my experience last week. Let me explain. I have a KelTec P-32 that has been with me everywhere except work since 03/2006. Only time when it isn't is during the winter when I carry a larger caliber. But for spring, summer and early fall it's always with me. Every six months I shoot a couple of mags out of it to make sure it runs ok. I always have an extra mag with whatever I carry. Anyway, this past Sunday at the range it was time to shoot it. I fired one round out of it and it jammed tight with the slide locked back. I could not get the slide to release after that first shot. Took it home and disassembled and found nothing wrong. Don't know what happened. I did break a frame pin on disassembly and a new one is on its way from keltec. After this I am a believer in having a BUG now.

JW1178

09-12-2012, 17:45

And when will you know that you NEED a back up gun? Will it be out for an evening restaraunt meal with your wife/date? Or will it be walking through a mall? Or, maybe stopping off late at night at a convenience store for an item you need the following day but forgot to pick up during earlier shopping trips? Or, maybe checking into a motel late at night while on the road and parking in the dark?

Where will your rifle be then?

Chances are I will never have to use my weapon and the chances of me having to actually fire it against someone are even more rare. The probability of my G27 failing on top of that are so remote that well, I don't feel the need. If others do, all the more power to them. I don't carry a gas mask or keep a bio suite either. Besides, I can only carry so much gear. Areas where I am likely to get into a shoot out are places I don't go. I understand what you're saying but I can't be prepared for everything and anything.

JW1178

09-12-2012, 17:54

I never have but I will after my experience last week. Let me explain. I have a KelTec P-32 that has been with me everywhere except work since 03/2006. Only time when it isn't is during the winter when I carry a larger caliber. But for spring, summer and early fall it's always with me. Every six months I shoot a couple of mags out of it to make sure it runs ok. I always have an extra mag with whatever I carry. Anyway, this past Sunday at the range it was time to shoot it. I fired one round out of it and it jammed tight with the slide locked back. I could not get the slide to release after that first shot. Took it home and disassembled and found nothing wrong. Don't know what happened. I did break a frame pin on disassembly and a new one is on its way from keltec. After this I am a believer in having a BUG now.

Probably what happened the magazine wasn't in all the way and the shock of the round fired caused the magazine to come out of place just enough that the mechanism held the slide back as though the magazine was out or there was no more ammo in the magazine. Depends on how the kel tec works. Anyways, might want to step up to a better platform.

SCmasterblaster

09-12-2012, 18:10

I don't carry a BUG. I have 17 9mms in my G17 and 15 more in a BUMag.

Clutch Cargo

09-13-2012, 06:11

I don't carry a BUG. I have 17 9mms in my G17 and 15 more in a BUMag.

My five shot J frame is overwhelmed by those figures:exercise:

shadow_dog

09-14-2012, 17:24

Probably what happened the magazine wasn't in all the way and the shock of the round fired caused the magazine to come out of place just enough that the mechanism held the slide back as though the magazine was out or there was no more ammo in the magazine. Depends on how the kel tec works. Anyways, might want to step up to a better platform.

Mag was in all the way when this happened. I tried it with mag removed and it still wouldn't release. Have no idea what happened. As far as a better platform, I do have several other platforms, SA, Smith, Para, Steyr, CZ, Ruger, Glock, Walther, Arcus, Beretta, High Standard and even a much acclaimed Hi Point 45. I do own 6 KT's though. This was the first issue with any of the KT's.

Darkangel1846

09-15-2012, 10:49

Hello

I did a search and found some info on this and am re-asking the question
because I am looking for some possibly some new opinions on this.:dunno:

So if this is a horse beaten to death for you just don't reply don't mean to irritate anyone.

thanks all

Dude it comes down to what you feel comfortable with....if you need or even want a bug.... then carry one, what does it hurt?:wavey:

SCmasterblaster

09-15-2012, 10:53

[QUOTE=SCmasterblaster;18312850]I DO NOT carry a BUG. It is enough trouble to carry my G17. Whenever I go to the VA Hospital (at least twice per week) have to disarm myself completely. I am reduced to my 1.5-inch Spyderco folder. Six years in the USN doesn't matter, and neither does 20 years of safe G17 CCW. I carry an extra magazine for my G17, but I don't suppose that I'll need it with the initial 17 rounds of +p+ JHPs (9x19mm).[

Thanks for your service SCmb. Your Glock 17, so stoked, should be a nasty surprise to those foolish enough to preturb you. I haven't been to many really dangerous places, but I have been by myself in the dark a few times when, shall we say, the icy hand danced on my spine. The .38 Snubbie in my coat pocket felt VERY comforting when the wind came a-whistling-down-the-pike as it were. The P32 in my front pants pocket assured me if the Snubbie went dry, the dance wasn't over....

Had I a Glock 17, maybe.........

My snubbie would have been my back up! :cool:

God bless. A long Rebel yell out to you! And Deo Vindice!

Gray_Rider

Thank you for the kind reply. :cool:

Hugo R

09-15-2012, 11:18

I carry either a Ruger LCR or LCP in my left front pocket. Glock on the right hip.

Same here...G26/LCP. The LCP is in a Galco Pro 460, the little gun virtually disappears in my left front pocket.