Gamavor, we love you. But, don’t you think the above story belongs in under the subject topic of Mythology? Not any different from the legend of Noah having named Yerenan when he yelled “yerevats” and landed in Nakh-ijevan! Also remember when the “only begotten son/miatsin” descended/ejav/էջավ/ իջավ” upon “Ej-miatsin.Yes, we know that Plutarch and others have told Hannibal’s story. Which cable channel were his exploits documented and aired? The only thing they don’t tell us is which airline jet did he fly on. Survey the map below. Let us see how an army of 60,000 (another mythical number, like te vatsoum hazar zinvorner at Avarayr) and 10,000 elephants would travel 2000 miles west from what is today Tunisia, all the way to the Gibraltar, a 1000 miles north over the Pyarennies, another 1000 miles east, over the Alps, to Rome. Mind you, the legend does not say that he crossed the Mediterranean to Sicily etc. Lest we forget that some "odars" know more Armenian history than many of us. Just like the time when this highly educated (PHD History) African American woman, who upon learning that I was Armenian, brought up the story of Hannibal and his connection to Armenia, yet she ended up the story emphasizing the fact that Hannibal was an African.http://www.mytravelg...rranean-map.gifDid he have elephants like the one below?Dumbo, the flying elephant.http://www.elephantc...lies3/dumbo.gifTo not forget the 10,000 elephants in the Battle of Avarayr.To continue. When Hannibal did not get the help he hoped, he fled yet another 2000 miles to Armenia. Where, after a couple of days knew the geography and the military needs of his host country.??!!In all fairness. The above is such an entertainingly titillating bedtime story, not unlike the story of Noah who, according to legend was 500 years old during the flood, and that he built an ark to accommodate two of every species, yet to this day no one has told us where he bought the lumber, home Depot or Lowe’s,and where he got the electricity for his power tools.Do elephants fly? Pigs fly too! http://www.communica.../flying_pig.gifNo wonder nobody takes us and our so called “history” seriously.!!

The Romans have always had locally (in Syria) stationed Legions. If you browse the pages of Roman history you can find a lot of information. Here is some quote from Legio XII Fulminata:

QUOTE

By the time it was known that Vologases of Parthia was approaching with a huge army, Paetus' force was much reduced. Against better counsel, he led his understrength legions out to do battle in the open. "Then, after losing a centurion and a few soldiers he had sent in advance to reconnoiter the enemy's forces" he seems to have panicked, and ordered a hasty retreat to the camp. There he dispersed his already insufficient force in a series of outposts and detachments. The romans skirmished desultorilly, while Vologases attacked the scattered outposts in detail. Many men fought bravely against impossible odds, but the best and most courageous were the first to fall. Under such incompetent leadership and seriously short on supplies, the legions' morale shattered. Paetus pleaded with Corbulo, in Syria, to "come with all speed and save the standards and Eagles." But Corbulo moved slowly, wanting to make sure his rival, Paetus, was sufficiently discredited before he came to the rescue. Vologases assaulted the camp vigorously, "seeking to bring them to an engagement. But the men could hardly be dragged out of their tents, and would merely defend their lives, some held back by the general's order, others by their own cowardice." Paetus, meanwhile, entered feeble negotiations with the Parthian king. He finally agreed to leave Armenia, and swore before the Eagles that Romans would never return.

The legions' humiliation was complete. Even before they withdrew, the Parthians entered the camp unopposed. They took clothes, weapons, anything that took their fancy. "The soldiers were utterly cowed and gave up everything so as not to provoke a fight." Vologases made great piles of the bodies of the slain Romans and of the arms his army had captured, as testimony to his victory. Then he turned his back, and would not look upon the shattered men of the 12th and 4th legions as they slunk away. And they left quickly, 40 miles in a single day, Tacitus tells us, leaving their wounded behind to the mercies of the enemy. Corbulo, at last advancing to the rescue, came upon the refugees on the banks of the Euphrates. He ordered the eagles of his legions covered, so as not to witness the shame of the defeated. "His men, in true grief and pity for the lot of their comrades, could not even refrain from tears... pity alone survived, the more strongly in the inferior ranks." Later, when Corbulo led his legions back to Armenia to take revenge upon Vologases, neither Legio XII Fulminata nor Legio IV Scythica would accompany them. He judged that "from the loss of their bravest men and the panic of the remainder, (they) seemed quite unfit for battle." Both legions were sent back to Syria, in disgrace.

Once again a little caution and a hefty grain of salt are in order, before we lowers our vartiks and bare our behinds.Here is what the Britannica says;“Plutarch, c. 46-119 AD, (i.e c.=circa= on or about). Greek philosopher and miscellaneous writer, who from the 16th c. to early 19th was among the most popular of classical authors….”It goes on to say that, ever since then Plutarch has been treated not so much as an historian but an essayist, biographer whose main objective was to highlight the exploits of the Greeks and Romans and use them as a medium to aggrandize them, use them as models of integrity and morality to inspire the masses. In other words, and these are my words ”he was just a propagandist, not an eyewitness historian”. We will also notice that he lived some 300 years after the saga of Hannibal. (247-183 BC).Where did he get his stories from? How? And what were his objectives?According to Armenian sources, Khorenatsi does not mention Hannibal or his involvement in Artashat.Why?Had he not heard of Plutarch, did he dismiss him as an unreliably biased source?Once again, according to Armenian historians Plutarch is viewed with a jaundiced eye, to say the least he is not known for his armenophilia.One of many googles;http://www.livius.or...ch/plutarch.htm

Arpa, I agree about Plutarch. He is not very trusted in the history society even for description of events to which he was witness. The point of interest however was the transportation means and how exactly remote geographically regions have displayed certain cultural similarity. If you look at the map it takes not a very long shot to get from Italy to Armenia by the sea. Ah, the Sea! That's what Cicero exclaimed in one of his oratory, emphasizing the importance of the sea as a mean for exchanging ideas, culture and goods. Even by land, although a stretch for sure but still not impossible.

A dumbass turk one time in a different forum asked my how come Armenian have in their national cuisine mussel soup or mussel dishes, when they don’t have a sea. The scum-back didn’t know that Armenians were inhabiting the shores of three seas long before his Mongol ilk showed up in Asia Minor.

Whyis Kanan/Kanaan is still a popular surname of some Syrians, Lebanese/Paletinianis?Ohannes, look here, Canaanites and Phoenicians;http://hyeforum.com/...mp;#entry117787When I was only 8 years old , when our Sunday School teachers would tell us stories abot David and Goliath, Samson (Phoenician, Canaanite, ՜Փղշտացի/Palestinian, Gazan) and others idiots, I could not help but see pictures of Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck and other cartoons.And now. Let us talk about that other “mickey mouse” aka Korenatsi whose main mission was to hebradize/christianize?) our history, mythology and ancestry.And now, the entire world believes , specifically us, the Armenians that we are descendants of that idiot Noah, and that the Canaanites, the Phoenicians, the Philistines, the Palestinians, and eventually the Carthaginians were an anathema.That Book of Lies is assumed to be the most read . Can I have my say? Can we burn all those “books” (the so called Old Testament, not the New) and use them as a source of heat for freezing homes in Hayastan?If only I had my way, I would declare Khorenatsi the traitor of all times, who, in his fervor of an agent of that newfangled religion trashed our history in favor of thoae idiots of Abraham and David, either of which has yet to be historically and archeologically proven.

NEW YORK -- On November 15, Scottish architectural historian StevenSim presented a slide show and lecture about the remnants of theArmenian cultural heritage in Turkey, at the Diocesan Center in NewYork. The speech -- one of two Mr. Sim gave in New York (see thesidebar story) -- was an adjunct event of the "Armenian Monuments ofthe Nakhichevan Region" exhibition, which was concurrently on displayat Harvard University.

Mr. Sim's presentation showed how one dedicated individual can makean important contribution to preserving that cultural heritage. Hissearch for the monuments of historic Armenia has taken him, alone,into some remote and inhospitable parts of what is now Turkey andAzerbaijan.

His study of Armenian monuments had been ongoing for nine yearsbefore Mr. Sim ever set foot in present-day Armenia.

Anahit Ter-Stepanian, an adjunct art professor at Sacred HeartUniversity in Connecticut, who organized the November 15 event inconjunction with the Diocese's Krikor and Clara Zohrab InformationCenter, described "Sim's first encounter with Armenian buildings...when he was traveling around Turkey in 1984. He has visited Turkeyevery year since 1989, taking over 20,000 photographs, while exploringand documenting the region's surviving Armenian monuments. In 1999 hecreated a website on Armenian architecture, www.virtualani.org, whichreceives worldwide inquiries."

Ms. Ter-Stepanian continued her introduction by noting that theYerevan-based organization, Research on Armenian Architecture,sponsored Mr. Sim's 2005 trip to Nakhichevan to document theconditions of the region's Armenian churches. Mr. Sim also suppliedtestimony in 2006 to Charles Tannock, a member of the EuropeanParliament, that led to the passing of a European Union resolutioncondemning Azerbaijan's destruction of the khatchkars in Julfa. He wasinvited by Switzerland's Armenia Parliamentary Group to be a part of adelegation that met with UNESCO to protest the inactivity regardingthe destruction of the Julfa Armenian graveyard.

In his presentation, Mr. Sim first discussed the Turkish government'srecent restoration of the Church of the Holy Cross at Aghtamar. Hequestioned the quality of the reconstruction and showed how it did notmaintain the integrity of the original church. For instance, insteadof using the original type of lime cement, the restorers used ordinarycement, which is not long lasting and must be replaced in three to tenyears. The Turkish team also made fundamental changes that arecontrary to the ethics of restoration, according to Mr. Sim; he gaveas an example the stripping away of the original earthen roof andreplacing it with a pitched stone roof.

Mr. Sim's slides of last spring's Aghtamar re-opening showed scenesnow familiar to many Armenians: the gigantic red Turkish flag drapedon the front of the church; the thousands of Turkish-flag balloonsthat were released at the ribbon-cutting; a large sign reading,"Respect the History, Respect the Culture" -- even though the churchwas being presented as a museum, and is not allowed to function as anArmenian church.

Commenting on what he termed a botched restoration, with a low levelof workmanship and lack of understanding of Armenian architecture, Mr.Sim said: "If you can't preserve the original aspect of the buildingafter restoration, then it should not be restored."

He added: "Artifacts [like pottery or carved stone fragments] thatwere uncovered during the restoration have just been left lyingaround, to be lost or stolen; they should be preserved in a museum."

* Painstaking documentation

According to the last official list of Armenian buildings made by theArmenian Patriarchate in Istanbul in 1911, there were over 1,639parish churches, 700 monastic churches, and 210 monasteries in theOttoman Empire. The Patriarchate's figures did not include thehundreds of other Armenian Protestant and Catholic churches throughoutOttoman Turkey.

Mr. Sim has painstakingly documented the ongoing destruction of manyof these Armenian monuments. On Ktutz Island in Lake Van stands a14th-century church, St. Hovannes, which has been vandalized by Turkswho have scribbled their names on the walls. Near Ani there used to befive churches in the 10th-century Khtzkonk monastery, but in the early1960s soldiers from the local Turkish army base used dynamite to blowup the churches; only one survives today. Local vandals routinely tearup church floors searching for gold allegedly buried by the formerArmenian inhabitants.

Ironically, some churches that have been used as barns, mosques,gymnasia, or storage facilities have been better preserved. Mr. Simtold how the Church of the Apostles in Kars was used as a warehousefor petroleum in the 1930s. (It is now used as a mosque.) The16th-century Phirus Church near Lake Van is now a mosque -- eventhough Armenian churches typically face east, and mosques in theregion face south.

Mr. Sim has also visited monuments in more remote locations which arebetter preserved. Near the village of Terjan stand a pair ofsix-meter-tall, 12th-century khatchkars -- remarkably still standing.In Hayots Dzor -- the "Valley of the Armenians," home to the fortressof the legendary Haik -- there still stands the 17th-century nunneryof St. Marina, once a popular pilgrimage site dedicated to a youngwoman who lived a clandestine existence as a male monk.

Nevertheless, "It is distressing to return each year and see less andless," Mr. Sim lamented. "These monuments have no future withoutconservation. The seventh-century Church of Mren, the oldest survivingexample of an Armenian domed church, is in a border military zone andofficially people are not allowed to go there. It has a large crackand is severely damaged, and will collapse completely unless urgentrepairs are done," he said.

* Policies of neglect

"The Turkish government has a policy of neglect," Mr. Sim said, addingsurprisingly, "and Armenian organizations have the same policy ofneglect." He said he considered it "unrealistic" to hope that theseArmenian monuments might be reclaimed by the Armenian Church, andadvised Armenians to give money to the Turks who own these buildingsto encourage their ongoing maintenance.

Equally surprising, Mr. Sim said he thinks the monuments should notbe rebuilt, because the monuments themselves are also "Genocidesurvivors" which should be preserved as they are, so as not to destroythe evidence of the Genocide. (It would also be contrary to currentconservation practices to completely rebuild the buildings, he said.)

"There are still a lot of Armenian village churches, graveyards, andcastles to discover," Mr. Sim said. "It is a race against time. SomeArmenian with financial resources should try to preserve a fewchurches to set an example. For $100,000, five or six ancient churchescould be saved. Now there is massive urban development [in Turkey] andthere is little of Armenian origin left; most Turkish cities containfew buildings that are older than 50 years of age, regardless of howancient those cities are. After the founding of the Turkish republic,Turkey undertook a relentless drive to modernity, and because of thismost people in Turkey do not see any value in preserving old things.Armenians must act fast, because within 30 years there will be fewmonuments left to save."

In a question-and answer-session at the end of the presentation,members of the Armenian community expressed different views on whatcould be done to preserve the monuments.

Rachel Goshgarian, director of the Krikor and Clara Zorab Center,suggested that the Land and Culture Organization, which hadestablished building programs in Armenia and Artsakh, could start asimilar project in Turkey. She encouraged every Armenian to contributeto the upkeep of the monuments.

Mr. Ter-Stepanian noted, "The Armenian community is in a verydifficult psychological and emotional state. Is the need to preservethe Armenian cultural heritage a part of our values? What kind ofsupport do we give Armenian scholars and researchers?"

Hrand Markarian, who wrote a book about historical Western Armenia,Liturgy: Sound of Stones, said the monuments were confiscated under aTurkish law that declared them abandoned property, in defiance of thefact that they belonged to the Armenian Patriarchate in Istanbul; hesaid they were never abandoned and should therefore be returned. Healso questioned the decision of the Turkish government not to allowArmenian architects to work on the restoration of Aghtamar, but addedresignedly: "It is not easy to get through the legal quagmire ofTurkish laws designed to prevent Armenian ownership of Armenianproperties."

Mr. Sim replied to this point that an argument about abandonmentversus confiscation has no bearing on how to preserve the monuments;that most of the surviving disused churches are in private ownership;and that it was "a fantasy to ever expect them to be returned to theArmenian Church." He added that the preservation of churches "would bea threat if the current owners in Turkey believed that there was apossibility their property would be confiscated and given back toArmenians." The result would be to accelerate the destruction of suchmonuments.

In a brief post-lecture interview, historian Aram Arkun, a specialistin the Genocide period, said, "Saving these Armenian monuments is acomplex issue because Armenians don't have free access to theirbuildings, and Armenians who visit them are treated with suspicion.There are so many of them that the cost of renovation would be veryexpensive, especially when the border between Turkey and Armenia isclosed. Certainly, better Turkish-Armenian relations would help. ButUNESCO is not actively helping, and the likelihood is that many ofthese monuments will disappear."

He added: "Ultimately, one of the potential components of reparationsdemands for the Armenian Genocide -- if Armenians are ever in aposition to make them -- would be the return and restoration of thesemonuments."

Tourists familiar with Scottish heritage would be astonished to discover the possibility of famous Stonehenge been originated in Armenia, claiming the fact that the Armenian land is the real cradle of civilization.

Famous professor and world’s known specialist on stone monuments Gerald. S. Hawkins had acknowledged that Karahunj is 7,500 years old, which means that it is 3,500 years older than Scotland Stonehenge, older than Karnak in France and Newgrenge in Ireland. It may prove what some people already suspect that Armenia is the cradle of the civilization.

On the territory of 7 hectares, 223 huge vertical stones like soldiers stand on the hill, some with holes pierced in them. The rough- cut stones aligned irregularly for a purpose, 84 were found to have holes. Many unique astronomic instruments consisting of one, two or three Stones were identified and using these, many observations of the Sun, Moon and stars. It is commonly assumed to be an early observatory, the evidence of ancient astronomical culture in Armenia. These stones have been attributed with mystical and cosmic powers. The Armenian scientists in ancient times could accurately measure latitude, knew that the Earth was ball-shaped, had an accurate calendar, and many more.

The sight is beautiful and ancient, well worth the visit. Astronomers from Europe and the US are showing increasing interest in the complex, and several expeditions have already taken place. To compare Armenian Karahunj with Scottish Stonehenge visit Welcomearmenia.com for its unique images. For experience you can take guided tours to the ancient sophisticated observatory of Karahunj with 7Days... Armenian Travel Company. Multi-language guides will describe and explain the mystical meanings of the Armenian Zorats Karer, the oldest observatory of the world.

YEREVAN, May 26 (RIA Novosti) - Authorities in southern Armenia haveopened a 5,000-year-old prehistoric monument dubbed "the ArmenianStonehenge," but known locally as Carahunge, as a tourist site.

The monument, located some 200 km (124 miles) away from the capital,Yerevan, consists of over 200 shaped stones, some bearing smooth angledholes of 4 to 5cm in diameter, directed at different points at the sky.

"This territory will be developed for tourism," said Samvel Musoyan,deputy chief of the Armenian culture ministry's department forcultural heritage.

Funding has already been raised from the country's budget to developthe tourist site, build a transparent wall around the monument andfor maintenance and security of the site.

Following excavation of the site, it is believed to have servedsimultaneously as a temple of Ari, the ancient Armenian deityof the sun, a university and an observatory. According to recentarchaeological findings, the site could be used to define the precisename of sunrise and lunar phases and the day when a year began.

The fact that chips of transparent obsidian glass were found at thesite spawned the theory that the pre-historic dwellers, that inhabitedthe region, placed them inside the holes for magnification.

Though some scientists believe that Carahunge was built some fivethousand years ago, Armenian scientists argue that it is 7,500years old.

The more famous Stonehenge site located in the county of Wiltshirein southwest England is at least 5,000 years old and was declared aUNESCO World Heritage Site in 1996.

The structure comprises standing stones, believed to date back to2200 B.C. which are surrounded by a circular earth mound and ditchconstructed some 1000 years earlier. Its original purpose is unclear,but it is believed to have been used as a temple or an observatory.

Residents of Koti Village, Tavush Region accidentally discovered an ancient construction which is likely to have been a pagan or pre-Christian temple. As Governor of the village Felix Melikyan states it is more than 8 meters in length.

Local residents were afraid to dig it out as they might damage the monument. The Governor has addressed to the Armenian Institute of Archeology with the request to carry out excavations at the site.

Tourists familiar with Scottish heritage would be astonished to discover the possibility of famous Stonehenge been originated in Armenia, claiming the fact that the Armenian land is the real cradle of civilization.

Famous professor and world's known specialist on stone monuments Gerald. S. Hawkins had acknowledged that Karahunj is 7,500 years old, which means that it is 3,500 years older than Scotland Stonehenge, older than Karnak in France and Newgrenge in Ireland. It may prove what some people already suspect that Armenia is the cradle of the civilization.

On the territory of 7 hectares, 223 huge vertical stones like soldiers stand on the hill,some with holes pierced in them. The rough- cut stones aligned irregularly for a purpose, 84 were found to have holes. Many unique astronomic instruments consisting of one, two or three Stones were identified and using these, many observations of the Sun, Moon and stars. It is commonly assumed to be an early observatory, the evidence of ancient astronomical culture in Armenia. These stones have been attributed with mystical and cosmic powers. The Armenian scientists in ancient times could accurately measure latitude, knew that the Earth was ball-shaped, had an accurate calendar, and many more.

The sight is beautiful and ancient, well worth the visit. Astronomers from Europe and the US are showing increasing interest in the complex, and several expeditions have already taken place. To compare Armenian Karahunj with Scottish Stonehenge visit Welcomearmenia.com for its unique images. For experience you can take guided tours to the ancient sophisticated observatory of Karahunj with 7Days... Armenian Travel Company. Multi-language guides will describe and explain the mystical meanings of the Armenian Zorats Karer, the oldest observatory of the world.

Hi Sip! You, stonehead! I mean cheesehead. All of those "henges" are from the STONE AGE. Maybe Iron age Are we going in a full circle around, in this 21st century? Going back to the STONE AGE, better known as "SILICON"???

As a result of three weeks' diggings in the frontier Village of Koti associate member of the RA National Academy of Sciences (NAS), archeologist Aram Kalantarian and head of the archeology and ethnography institute of NAS, Ph.D. Suren Hobossian have discovered several churches and khachkars (stone-crosses) dating back to 6-7c., 12-13c. and 16-17c.

The diggings, performed with private funds, are presently discontinued. They will continue next year, when the Government invests funds from the State Budget.

http://hyeforum.com/...p;hl=archeologyԹՄԲԿԱԲԵՐԴ TMBKABERDԹմբուկ Բերդ**** Թումբ means “mound”/ հողակոյտ, as in "dam" against water: Does it sound like the English “tomb, pr. toomb” to mean “ceremonial burial place/monument” like the Armenian “շիրիմ”?More info and pictues needed!How about it SAS?See how, at times it is written as (Georgian? Vratseren?)“TmogvԹմոգվ/Tmovg Թմովգ”. Is it because some may have read the Ւ of ՈՒ as Վ, the "hyun" U as V?Also see;http://hyeforum.com/...showtopic=18670