I know it sucks, but who would make a student loan that was dischargeable in bankruptcy? You'd have ten million students every year graduating with $160,000 in student loans, no assets, no income, and immediately declaring bankruptcy to get out of it. In a sense, no bank would ever loan that much money unsecured at a reasonable interest rate, unless the collateral is your future earnings.

- subsidize tuition in order to reduce the frequency/need for student loans- allow student loans to be absolved through bankruptcy- provide other means/ways/mechanisms to promote an educated population

However, in order to qualify for this program, as a student, you need to:

- present what essentially amounts to a "business plan" in order to qualify for a loan: - show how you intend to pay it back - justify your degree in terms of return on investment - research the "employability" of your degree - present a year-by-year plan including such things as expected income, loan repayment schedule, etc.- require that you maintain a certain GPA, or you revert back to the "old" system

What this will do is:- ease the way for people who actually plan for their future, and are serious about college- dissuade people from going to college for the sake of going to college- dissuade people from racking up massive amounts of debt in order to obtain an obviously useless (in terms of ROI) degree

e.g. If you really, really want that Gender Studies degree, you can pay for it on your own dime

dukeblue219:I know it sucks, but who would make a student loan that was dischargeable in bankruptcy? You'd have ten million students every year graduating with $160,000 in student loans, no assets, no income, and immediately declaring bankruptcy to get out of it. In a sense, no bank would ever loan that much money unsecured at a reasonable interest rate, unless the collateral is your future earnings.

//That's my understand of why that's how it has to be. Am I wrong?

Yes, but the solution isn't simply to make loans non-dischargeable, or else there would be no such thing as bankruptcy for any type of loan (which may or may not be the wet dream of every bank CEO, I don't know). Part of the solution is to cap the interest of the loans to a reasonable level, so that people might actually be able to pay it off in a reasonable amount of time without their debt spiraling out of control. Part of the solution is to stem the tide of rising tuition costs requiring more students to take out more and higher loans in order to afford to be able to get a degree, eventually leading to the cost of continuing education going down, not up. Part of the solution is for the vaunted and sacred job-creators to actually create some f*cking jobs so people graduating can find employment commensurate to their academic and technical knowledge/skills that pays a living wage. Student loan debt is a problem that needs to be tackled from multiple angles, most of which would require an immediate short-term cost but a huge long-term benefit to society. As such, it probably won't ever be solved.

Based on zero reliable evidence and a whole lot of hearsay about Doctors declaring bankruptcy during their residency to get rid of med school debt and then walking into 6-figure jobs, Congress decided to monkey with bankruptcy laws.

Maybe - just maybe - the proper solution to this isn't to force (and permit) huge loans to students with little ability to repay them, but to actually have government fund higher education appropriately, and exercise some control on the stupidly high cost of college.

- subsidize tuition in order to reduce the frequency/need for student loans- allow student loans to be absolved through bankruptcy- provide other means/ways/mechanisms to promote an educated population

However, in order to qualify for this program, as a student, you need to:

- present what essentially amounts to a "business plan" in order to qualify for a loan: - show how you intend to pay it back - justify your degree in terms of return on investment - research the "employability" of your degree - present a year-by-year plan including such things as expected income, loan repayment schedule, etc.- require that you maintain a certain GPA, or you revert back to the "old" system

What this will do is:- ease the way for people who actually plan for their future, and are serious about college- dissuade people from going to college for the sake of going to college- dissuade people from racking up massive amounts of debt in order to obtain an obviously useless (in terms of ROI) degree

e.g. If you really, really want that Gender Studies degree, you can pay for it on your own dime

While we're at it, smack companies who require college degrees for positions that have no need for the degree.

In the early '80s tuition and books were still affordable then te predatory GOP saw a cash cow for their cronies and created rackets where textbooks had to be bought new each semester regardless if content had changed or not and students' bank accounts needed to be raided because tax revenues no longer funded schools due to thinks like Prop 13 in CA.

Because students and other people saddled with student load debt do not have the balls in this country to stand up for what they farking believe in. Take to the farking streets. Make them hear you. You won't get change from a ballot box and you want get change from either major party.

My wife and I are no longer drowning. We drowned. We will never own a house. We will likely never be able to own a car, even a used one. The chances of me being able to find a traditional job ever again are slim. We exist on the lamb from our creditors, surviving only by humbly accepting the charitable food and shelter that is offered to us. We are beggars. I own only three sets of clothing, a hairbrush, and a toothbrush (and since my teeth and hair are falling out from lack of nutrition, even those things seem excessive). I only use the internet at the library, and when I do I only post to Fark because I don't want my creditors tracking me down. I never even use my real name for anything anymore. That man is dead- he drowned under a pile of debt.

Oddly, none of that is a complaint. The fact of the matter is that extreme poverty has taught me far more and enriched my life to a much greater degree than college ever did. It has taught me to shut off my responses to pain and hunger. It has taught me that my comfort only comes at the cost of someone else's survival. It has taught me humility and the need to show unconditional love and compassion wherever I go. It has given me clarity, perspective, and (dare I say it) some degree of wisdom. I get more out of nothing than the richest man gets out of everything he owns.

And so, I no longer struggle against my poverty. I accept it as not only the reality of the situation but as a blessing. I thank God every day for my poverty, and pray that He grants me the strength and wisdom to bear this blessing. Soon, my wife and I may head for a land where people are even poorer than we are now so that we may give to them and work to enrich their lives rather than our own. We desire greater poverty in our lives. It is only when we are free from the material distractions in our lives that we are finally able to see our path through life and what is truly important.

deanis:I honestly cannot recall being talked to about the impending debt of my student loans. I always knew I would have to pay them off, but I think everyone beginning college expects to have a pretty good job when they get out. The reality is that you get out, work an entry level shiat position within your field that barely covers the cost of living, then IF you move up the ladder you might be able to pay off some of your debt.

Also, with the price of tuition going up yearly, kids are these days are royally farked.

1. By law, you have to have signed a document spelling out in detail what you owe, including the real interest rate and the total cost of repayment.2. It sounds like a significant part of the problem is that workers have increasingly little power in the US job market which drives up qualifications required to get a job in the first place and drives down compensation, which is a problem that needs to be addressed separately from student loans.

Bankruptcy protections are not required for student loans.According the documents that my daughter received regarding her loans:1) She only has to start paying 6 months after finishing school.2) Here payments will not exceed 10% of her disposable income (after taxes and typical monthly bills, such as mortgage, rent, utilities, etc.). If unemployed, there are no payments.3) Loans are forgiven if not fully paid in 20 years.

Mikey1969:Because the reason that anyone can get a student loan is that the banks know it can't be discharged thru a bankruptcy.

If you're "drowning" in student loan debt, you're doing it wrong. I have never had a loan where it was so easy to put off payments. Forbearance or deferment, all I have to do is call, and i can get 6 months of not paying and not having it reflect negatively on my credit. Try that with a house, I've gotten forbearances for 2 straight years before.

You don't like to be "drowning" in student loan debt? Then pay your own way through college. Seriously, I don't understand how people can't figure out this One Weird Trick...

How adorably naive. Please tell me kind sir, how do I pay for my $19,500/semester med school tuition alone (mind you, and that's pretty cheap as far as medicine)? Get a job? And hope they don't find out because, shocking I know, we aren't aloud to work because of that whole not wanting you to fail out and them losing out on their revenue. Should I have saved up that much during undergrad? Please tell me a job that requires no degree that pays $60,000 a year. Should I have let Mommy and Daddy pay for it? Of course not, because people that think the way you do whine about that too. There's always the military, because it's reasonable to EXPECT someone to risk their life for pointless wars. Which would be fine if they'd accept me, unfortunately I have a pesky medical condition. I guess I should just actually "do some real, hard work" and be a plumber, getting off at the same time everyday, being able to enjoy a family, and sit back and watch some TV with a nice beer at the end of the day, and rest up and do something fun on the weekend. Instead, I'll be in a laid back, cushy job that requires me to work 60 hours a week with travel to several different hospitals, with maybe a Saturday or two a month to enjoy with the friends and family I probably won't have time for. Let's not forget pointless lawsuits!

fortheloveofgod:FarkedOver: The "evil" loan and the cost of education are hand in glove. They are both actors on the same stage performing for the same outcome; profit at the expense of those least likely to afford it. I understand this is the nature vampiritic nature of capitalism, which is why I have become increasingly more anti-capitalist

For all their douchebaggery, the Teabaggers are proving you wrong on that point. Primary challenges for any politician who doesn't represent them the way they want is certainly shifting the GOP position.

Perhaps if Democrats spent a little less time fussing about what the GOP are doing and tried holding their own representatives to account in similar fashion, rather than consistently retreating behind a 'lesser of two evils' defense, they might actually get somewhere.

HipsterTrash:Fark all of you, I make money to go to College. 1500 a month from the GI Bill for Active Duty service and 100% tuition is paid by my States National Guard. If someone wants to go to school for free there are ways to do it. You have to work to do it though, I know that all you liberal farking turds don't want to that though.

It doesn't even have to be the military if you're opposed to it.

It was my path but my point is and has been in this thread, there are opportunities for those who are willing to take unconventional paths. Maybe it's Americorps, (does that still exist?). Maybe it takes you longer than 4 years, maybe you work in a job you hate as motivation. Nobody owes you anything and certainly not a post secondary education.

There are shortages of qualified applicants for good paying blue collar jobs that don't require a 4 year degree. You're probably too smart for any of them right?

Wasn't disparaging at all. I'm sorry I made you clutch your pearls in outrage though.

And I encourage as many people as I can to take up a trade rather than going to college. But what happens when the blue collar fields are all filled? Do we just keep going from one bubble to the next?

I'm sorry you hate that people go to college instead of being factory employees just smart enough to work a machine

Willfully ignorant or just stupid?

I don't hate that people go to college, I hate that everyone is conditioned to believe that going to college is the only way to achieve prosperity. I went to college, I've worked in trades. I have moderate student loans, that I am PAYING which is what this thread was about.

Losers who've incurred debts they can't afford to pay back because they've been conditioned by their guidance counselor or some other 'authority figure' to believe it's the only way to get ahead.

There are many paths to prosperity in this country, if you can't see that then you should probably consider moving to some place like Best Korea, you'd probably find it to be Shangri-La.

First of all, I never accused you of believing that. And I personally don't believe that. My belief is that is what the capitalists want. An expendable populace only smart enough to serve the needs of the elite.

Nana's Vibrator:WhippingBoy:This is what liberal arts students tell themselves in order to sleep at night. Unfortunately, it's complete twaddle.Most useful degrees require that you take a fair amount of liberal arts electives. For example, in order to obtain my engineering degree, I essentially had to take the equivalent of 2 1/2 years of liberal arts credits. Liberal Arts are condiments, not the main course.

Whatever, dude. You might have spent countless hours studying metals or plastics or mechanics or whatever. If you're an engineer by trade right now, you're probably using about 5 hours per month on what you learned in college and the other 155+ hours per month chasing drawings or change orders or faulty production lines or machines or tolerance stackups because someone else never bothered to do it. Sorry to single you out, but even science or technical degrees are 95% "twaddle". Yes, it's that 5% that got you a job, but the bigger picture is the farce of a 4 year degree where afterwards we have careers and apply our degree in the most minimal of situations. That's what makes it twaddle.

/I'm a people person. I talk to the engineers!//I have a "science" degree and am disillusioned by the lack of connection between education and application.

I hold a BA in Philosophy and now I work as a software dev. A CS degree is a waste of time, its more about what you KNOW and what you can DO.

fortheloveofgod:If you couldn't afford the debt, then no, you never should have gone to college. You're looking for the answer in the wrong place. The evil is not in the loan, the evil is in the high cost of education. If education was priced at a reasonable level, the loan you had to take out would have been much smaller. Get to the root cause - the price of the education, not that evil loan that YOU agreed to.

The "evil" loan and the cost of education are hand in glove. They are both actors on the same stage performing for the same outcome; profit at the expense of those least likely to afford it. I understand this is the nature vampiritic nature of capitalism, which is why I have become increasingly more anti-capitalist.

FarkedOver:fortheloveofgod: Or, you could not have taken out the loan if you didn't agree with its terms.

Good idea. I should never have went to college. WHO CARES that almost every job offer says "4 year degree required."

If you couldn't afford the debt, then no, you never should have gone to college. You're looking for the answer in the wrong place. The evil is not in the loan, the evil is in the high cost of education. If education was priced at a reasonable level, the loan you had to take out would have been much smaller. Get to the root cause - the price of the education, not that evil loan that YOU agreed to.

The problem with student loans is the amount of money they provide without concern about whether the degree will be able to generate enough money to make reasonable payments. Instead of holding a debate to discuss discharging students loans, the debate should focus on establishing a formula that sets the maximum amount that can be borrowed when seeking a specific degree from a specific institution, based on earning potential of that specific degree.

No one should be able to qualify for student loans in the amount of $250,000 to attend a university so they can graduate with a degree that has an average income so low that they will not be able to make reasonable payments after factoring in living costs.

A $180,000 degree from Barry College is great, but maybe pursuing that degree at a costs of $30,000 at an in-state public institution is a wiser decision, especially if there is no difference in earning potential.

AccuJack:dukeblue219: dukeblue219: That's my understand of why that's how it has to be. Am I wrong?

I guess I should have RTFA first because it covers what I just said. Oh well.

Reality check: This is *Fark*. You're posting a response to the headline for an article without reading it.

Would you post internet reviews of cars based on the font used to write the text surrounding one picture of the car in an article online if the picture was photoshopped to look like it was in a funny location?

Chinchillazilla:AccuJack: If you don't know you want to go to college enough to pick something to study, then wait to go until you do know what you want.

Jesus, I wish someone had told me this in high school. I told my dad I wanted to wait and get my shiat together before I went to college, and he got all disappointed and judgmental, so off I went. Went for two and a half years before crippling anxiety and depression, stemming from not knowing what I wanted to do with my life, made me drop out. Now I have student loan debt and no degree. Awesome.

When I'm Queen of Everything all 18 year olds will have 2 years of national service.

AccuJack: If you don't know you want to go to college enough to pick something to study, then wait to go until you do know what you want.

Jesus, I wish someone had told me this in high school. I told my dad I wanted to wait and get my shiat together before I went to college, and he got all disappointed and judgmental, so off I went. Went for two and a half years before crippling anxiety and depression, stemming from not knowing what I wanted to do with my life, made me drop out. Now I have student loan debt and no degree. Awesome.

MythDragon:FarkedOver: Because students and other people saddled with student load debt do not have the balls in this country to stand up for what they farking believe in. Take to the farking streets. Make them hear you. You won't get change from a ballot box and you want get change from either major party.

Tatterdemalian:Because if they did, the universities would go belly up within a decade, and everyone would blame the banks for "predatory student loans."

Not all of them. There are a lot of schools that offer a good product at a good price. These schools have a career services department with a higher budget than the football team.

But the second tier private schools that have beautiful campuses, awesome dorms, great parties brah, and cost $50k a year? Well some of them will continue as finishing schools for the wealthy, but most will disappear.

FarkedOver:Because students and other people saddled with student load debt do not have the balls in this country to stand up for what they farking believe in. Take to the farking streets. Make them hear you. You won't get change from a ballot box and you want get change from either major party.

what_now:Except that liberal arts students are getting better jobs out of college because they are the only discipline that teaches critical thinking.

This is what liberal arts students tell themselves in order to sleep at night. Unfortunately, it's complete twaddle.Most useful degrees require that you take a fair amount of liberal arts electives. For example, in order to obtain my engineering degree, I essentially had to take the equivalent of 2 1/2 years of liberal arts credits. Liberal Arts are condiments, not the main course.

People often claim their bankruptcy is due to an unexpected medical cost or something similar, but nothing can unexpectedly force you into college. And while you can argue that people being screwed by payday advanced loans and the like are not smart or knowledgeable enough to know they are going to get screwed, college students are assumed to be at least semi-educated.

So, it is assumed you were smart and knowledgeable enough to know exactly what you were getting into, and the debt was completely voluntary. As such you are unlikely to get a lot of sympathy.

Limp_Bisquick:It would be a moot point if secondary education was affordable.

This is bullshiat. Get out and see the world for a few years, get off the parental tit so you can apply for financial aid based on your own income. You'd be surprised how much grant money is available when your income is under $20k per year. There ARE opportunities but you're already defeated by the impression it's too expensive. You can't always have it HOW you want it. If you want it bad enough you will find a way without saddling yourself with crippling debt. You will learn the meaning of SACRIFICE.

Or get into an apprenticeship program

This country has been conditioned to believe that the only way to achieve prosperity is through a bachelor's degree and now we have a shortage of skilled blue collar workers and a surplus of lawyers and unemployable "educated" youths.

High paying jobs as electricians, plumbers, millwrights and other fields go unfilled because they require hard work instead of expertise in Art History or whatever humanities program you completed at "Cal State Barstow", and entitled sh*tbags think the jobs are beneath them.

Also you start at the bottom and work your way up it's not "plumbers idol" where you're plucked from obscurity and showered with false praise.

I know mommy always told you you were special, but you're not. You need to get in line with everybody else.

AccuJack:As they *should*. Everyone has a right to pursue a college education. Not everyone should go, even those who can afford it. If you don't know you want to go to college enough to pick something to study, then wait to go until you do know what you want. Or go somewhere else like a technical school for post secondary study. Really, we need more trade schools that are cheaper/easier to get into in the US, and less 4 year colleges designed for only recent high school graduates to attend.

This. This right here.

When I'm made Queen of Everything it will be very very difficult to get into college and very very difficult to stay in college.

I remember reading an interview with Donald Trump a number of years ago in which he was explaining some of his financial situation which went something like this; "If you are some guy that defaults on a $200k mortgage, the bank is gonna come after you for the money you owe them. Basically, if you owe a bank $200k you're farked, but if you owe them $200 million, you're partners."

vernonFL:Because bankruptcy is an extreme last resort and most people would rather do everything they possibly could before declaring bankruptcy over student debt?

Hardly. There is nothing like racking up 100k of debt and just declaring bankruptcy, discharging the debt, and getting a job. Its no problem being able to rent a room when you are 23. Then, the new job starts paying you the big bucks and you are on easy street.

At minimum, if you discharge your govt student loan, you should not be eligible for a home to be backed by freddie. It would probably still be worth it to skip town on your 100k, but at least you would have to think about it. People would probably get around this one by having their parents buy the house and the kid makes the payments. Once the house is paid off. Parents simply quit claim. Now, none of the kids had to pay for college.

dukeblue219:I know it sucks, but who would make a student loan that was dischargeable in bankruptcy? You'd have ten million students every year graduating with $160,000 in student loans, no assets, no income, and immediately declaring bankruptcy to get out of it. In a sense, no bank would ever loan that much money unsecured at a reasonable interest rate, unless the collateral is your future earnings.

outdoorsman_jph:Student loans are a giant scam. Some of them have 10% origination fees, then charge you interest on top of this so you are paying interest on 110% of what you took out immediately. Compounding this over four years, you'll accrue over 43% of the value of the original 5k in interest. This part is usually left off of the financial aid paperwork or put in super small print. Also, given the state of mathematics education in this country, compounding interest is probably above the skill set of the average college student.

That's no longer the case. I don't know of any REPUTABLE student loans that have a 10% origination fee. If any such loans existed, they haven't since 2009.

The highest origination fee that I know of is the Federal PLUS loan, with it's brand new 4.024% origination fee. It went up from 4% even the last time Congress made good on it's promise to hold it's breath until the president stopped being so black.

dukeblue219:I know it sucks, but who would make a student loan that was dischargeable in bankruptcy? You'd have ten million students every year graduating with $160,000 in student loans, no assets, no income, and immediately declaring bankruptcy to get out of it. In a sense, no bank would ever loan that much money unsecured at a reasonable interest rate, unless the collateral is your future earnings.

//That's my understand of why that's how it has to be. Am I wrong?

Okay, so what you're saying is that we'd go back to responsible loan practices instead of just writing blank checks for ever-escalating higher education and maybe actual capitalist market forces might start to exert a bit of control over this part of our society infrastructure?

Student loans are a giant scam. Some of them have 10% origination fees, then charge you interest on top of this so you are paying interest on 110% of what you took out immediately. Compounding this over four years, you'll accrue over 43% of the value of the original 5k in interest. This part is usually left off of the financial aid paperwork or put in super small print. Also, given the state of mathematics education in this country, compounding interest is probably above the skill set of the average college student.