Yeah. I testing you right now. Tell me the number/color/animal/rock/or imaginary comcept I am thinking of and in which language you are unfamiliar with I am thinking of it in.

Too bad, I already know you are going to fail at this test. Then I am going to blame your relatives.

Have them beg me for forgiveness for you failing such a wonderful test.

« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 01:15:44 PM by Hatter23 »

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

Testing them for what? Obedience? How long were they to be tested? What would have happened if they passed the test assuming that the test ended at some point? Why did god see fit to condemn all of humanity because these two failed his test? Making humanity suffer the consequences because of two people's mistake seems quite harsh and batshit insane.

So keeping things simple-God creates everything, god knows everything that has/is/will happen.God creates the Garden of Eden, Adam, Eve, the tree, the apple etc.God then must already know every possible variable and outcome for the situation.God then gets annoyed when the outcome he already knew actually happens.Many years later he sends himself to earth to sacrifice himself to himself to somehow balance the books.Just does not seem to add up.

Usually tests are a measure of learning, achievement or skill. What was being tested there? And after a test you get to review the results so you can do better. In what way did that happen?

If this really was a test, why were the consequences permanent? Why did the fruit actually change them? Why not just say an ordinary tree was The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil for test purposes? Did it really need to be the TKGE?

And why were they punished for failing the test? Does anyone test their kids by placing a cookie jar in the middle of the living room, tell them not to eat cookies and then ground them for life when they do? You'd have to be some kind of lunatic to do that.

And why did yhwh not just undo the effects and have a "teaching moment"? He's omnipotent, right? He could have gotten the sin out just by willing it.[1] He could have sat down with Eve and her slow witted mate and explained what they did wrong. "Sorry, you two. You are not ready to have moral judgment. I should not have let the snake in here, but I really need you guys to listen to me. We'll work on that for a while. Until then, I'll just keep that Tree some place you can't reach. Got it? Okay. Now, go play."

The whole thing is crazy whether you take it literally or figuratively.

An alternative explanation is yhwh was actually evil and wanted his new people to not have moral judgment, ever. He actually had evil things in store, and if they gained moral judgment, they would not go along with his villainous plans. If that is so - and that makes a heck of a lot more sense to me - then the snake saved them and Eve is a courageous, smart hero.

Adam and Eve were apparently programmed from their creation with knowledge. They did not go through the normal rearing process. In essence they were programmed from the moment of their creation. Of course this may well imply that they had all the knowledge needed to understand what death was, what lying was, and so on.

But I do take exeption to the concept of God giving a test. God gave a verbal input and got exactly the response he expected. The test implies you have some doubt as to the outcome. I think a more appropriate statement would be that god programmed and then used Adam and Eve to achieve the exact results he expected.

"Sorry, you two. You are not ready to have moral judgment. I should not have let the snake in here, but I really need you guys to listen to me. We'll work on that for a while. Until then, I'll just keep that Tree some place you can't reach. Got it? Okay. Now, go play shag."

^^^ Here - I fixed that for you... that would have kept them out of trouble with that tree for a good while. I'm assuming he had not given them their respective nasty parts at that point, otherwise, they would not have been playing with talking snakes...

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If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving their god is. - neopagan

That's right. The story makes it sound like before they ate the fruit, A and E were playing naked volleyball or hide-and-seek in the garden like innocent, if overlarge, children on a field trip. Smooth and sex organ-less as Barbie and Ken. And white, if medieval painters are to be believed; however, they do not appear to have suffered from sunburn.

Then they eat the fruit and whambo! Porn-star-sized parts appear and after banging themselves into exhaustion, they rush to hide their nakedness under some leaf clothes like embarrassed adolescents.[1]

Later that night as they contemplate their fall and the resulting eternal damnation of their entire species, Eve was heard to ask Adam, "Do these leaves make my butt look big?"

Another thing I have never understood... why did A and E suddenly care they were naked? Were they afraid a dinosaur would see them? That's why I think their magic naughty bits "grew" after they ate the fruit... suddenly, they had something different they thought god did not know about.

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If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving their god is. - neopagan

The thing about that which has always puzzled me is that why, if being naked is a sin (or, at least, something to be seen as shameful), why would Yahweh have created them that way to begin with? Is it only when you are seen by someone other than your mate? Did they sew the fig leaves together to keep Yahweh from seeing them, or to cover themselves from each other also? And, come to that, if Yahweh is omniscient and omnipresent (though he didn't seem to be back in those days anyway, but that's a whole other issue), where is the shame in his seeing you naked either, given that you are bound to be in that state at least occasionally?

The "naughty bits", we can assume must have been there, at least visually, unless A&E did not have functioning digestive systems either...Maybe it was just Adam's that "grew"

The "naughty bits", we can assume must have been there, at least visually, unless A&E did not have functioning digestive systems either...Maybe it was just Adam's that "grew"

Why would they have originally needed functioning digestive systems? What comes out of the body was vile to YHWH... so why would any of those things be incuded originally? Besides, they did not even need to eat, since they were not going to die or even be hungry... yet somehow Eve fell for some fruit and a snake (visual pun there somewhere)?

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If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving their god is. - neopagan

Another thing I have never understood... why did A and E suddenly care they were naked?

That was a narrative device to show they gained moral knowledge. After eating the forbidden fruit, they could tell right from wrong. And thus, were ashamed of their uncovered bodies.

Being naked is seen as immoral in the OT. After the flood, when Noah gets liquored up and passes out butt naked, his sons have to cover him up walking backward, lest they glimpse his buns. Other places this is demonstrated too. And it is why jews to this day use a sheet with a hole in it to have sex.[1]

Which begs the question, why would a good god create them that way? Further evidence yhwh was an evil deity...

Just had to check out the sheet thing. I think I heard this growing up in black communities where people believed it was practiced by Orthodox Jews. And it is not true. Evidently Jewish sex is supposed to be pretty hot. Who knew? http://www.snopes.com/religion/sheet.asp

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When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

Yes, many a begged question in all that... I also like dipshit YHWH asking, "Who told you you were naked?"My guess would be the gazelles or those pesky unicorns.

Leave the unicorns out of this. It was clearly the cud-chewing rabbits.

Wascally wabbits.

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"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

This is a good one too - wish I'd remembered it, as it would have been handy on several occasions. I would have said that he was asking if one of the other gods (the ones he was consulting about these creatures he was making in their image a few days earlier) had ratted him out. I gotta admit though, I like your answer better, and will use it if the opportunity presents itself. Thanks!

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"Tell people that there's an invisible man in the sky that created the entire universe and the majority believe you. Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure." ~George Carlin

This is a good one too - wish I'd remembered it, as it would have been handy on several occasions. I would have said that he was asking if one of the other gods (the ones he was consulting about these creatures he was making in their image a few days earlier) had ratted him out. I gotta admit though, I like your answer better, and will use it if the opportunity presents itself. Thanks!

It has been likened to a parent asking a child about misbehavior, even though they full well know the child is at fault, so that's a non starter.

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

Yes, many a begged question in all that... I also like dipshit YHWH asking, "Who told you you were naked?"

the answer I get is that yhwh was talking down to them, like a parent to his children. Because right before that, yhwh cannot even find them and has to ask, "where the heck are you guys?" But of course yhwh already knew, because we have to presuppose that people always thought yhwh was GOD and was omnimax, so this is just yhwh dealing with children. and then he kills them.

Another thing I have never understood... why did A and E suddenly care they were naked?

That was a narrative device to show they gained moral knowledge. After eating the forbidden fruit, they could tell right from wrong. And thus, were ashamed of their uncovered bodies.

Which means Yahweh, the only moral being in the universe at that point, was looking at their naked bodies and knowing it was wrong, but unable to help himself.

Maybe that was why he set up the deliberate fail - so they'd go put some clothes on so he wouldn't have to look at them. Mind you, he then kicked them out of the house and drew the curtains to be left alone with his bank of memories.....

Yeah, sure. And they are the Chosen People, and their god is the greatest ever, and they built the pyramids... Their self agrandizing knows no limits.

Studs.

Seriously, though. What would be their basis for comparison?

All the shiksas and schwartzas they fool around with before they marry the nice Jewish spouse?

Muslims say that Islamic sex is pretty hot, too. I am sure that it can be-- but again, what is the basis for comparison? We had a Muslim guy here a few years back who argued that Muslim women feel pleasure without the need for any external organs. So you might as well have the genitalia removed before marriage....

There are circumcised men who say that it doesn't bother them that they had something snipped off. Does make you wonder why god stuck all these parts on that he just would require people to cut off later.

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When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?