This is an interesting complexity here. John Coffin found that XMRV has immune suppressing agents on its envelop, thus preventing immune cells from killing it. Mikovits theorizes (or found) that XMRV-infected cells have antigens on their envelops, which tell immune cells to attack it. Even though this seems contradictory, it might actually be complimentary.

Think of an enemy agent purposely revealing itself and causing solders to attack, only to result in the soldiers being neutralized. The result being that more soldiers are sent in to attack. In the model, a very small number of XMRV "enemy agents" could overcome a larger force because they cannot be killed.

Thanks for this article, Cort. I always appreciate how you tie things together. I'm curious about this:

Interestingly, XMRV infection in primates has thus far not produced any visible symptoms - no fevers - no real suggestion of an infection

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How long had the primates been infected? Might it take time for visible symptoms to develop? Might it be that it is the opportunistic infections that cause the visible symptoms and fevers? Even knowing how different XMRV is from HIV, might it also be similar in taking time to develop into XAND? I don't think I've seen anyone addressing this.

Nice tying that together Andrew! that seems to be a great way for a virus to exhaust the immune system. Very interesting.

For sure that's true gracenote; it was just a couple of months plus I think we pretty much know there have to be cofactors with CFS - more people who have the virus are healthy than those who aren't- there must be something special about the people who get ill - that is, if XMRV turns out to be a significant factor.

I think the Primates not getting ill was not a particularly significant thing and I probably shouldn't have highlighted that the way I did.

This is an interesting complexity here. John Coffin found that XMRV has immune suppressing agents on its envelop, thus preventing immune cells from killing it. Mikovits theorizes (or found) that XMRV-infected cells have antigens on their envelops, which tell immune cells to attack it. Even though this seems contradictory, it might actually be complimentary.

Think of an enemy agent purposely revealing itself and causing solders to attack, only to result in the soldiers being neutralized. The result being that more soldiers are sent in to attack. In the model, a very small number of XMRV "enemy agents" could overcome a larger force because they cannot be killed.

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I read a chapter in a Time Life book of a few years ago on "The Immune System"--a chapter at the end of it on the nature and strategies of retroviruses which have so far been identified. This was pre-XMRV. The strategies retroviruses use for getting in, for concealing themselves, for commandering cells and for getting the immune system to fight itself or fight their battles for them were astonishing in their sophistication. I thought I was reading about techniques of espionage, counterespionage, misinformation and the like. I do apologize for having a weak memory for detail but my mind is good for picking up the patterns. Scientists are only just finding out all the skills and strategies retroviruses can use.

These life forms, or partial life forms, have learned to dance with the elements of our biological systems to give themselves life. They can do the salsa! I'm sorry; it is late at night....

=ladybugmandy;58289]hi all. cort wrote:
more people who have the virus are healthy than those who aren't"

my fog is really bad...could someone please explain how one can come to this conclusion?

thank you
sue

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Hi Sue, :Retro smile:

I think Cort was referring to the 3.7% healthy controls who tested positive for XMRV in the Science study. This gives an estimate of ten million people in the US who have the virus, but are not showing signs of ill-health. This outnumbers those who have CFS in the US.

Sue, I believe it's because the WPI study found that 3.7% of healthy controls were infected with XMRV. If you apply 3.7% to the US population I believe they say that translates to perhaps as many as 10 million people in the US infected with XMRV but showing no symptoms. I think it's about 1 million people in the US with CFS.

Sunny Gal,
Your numbers seem right. It certainly begs the question as to why other studies in the US and abroad have not found similar numbers in their CFS control cohort. You would think by including family members of CFS patients and those in close contact that number would increase. Provided there is a link between XMRV and CFS.