We will have three lower level independents Army and BYU are different.
BYU and Army have tradition and TV deals that make independence easier.
If five more schools would join Liberty ,U Mass and NMSU it could work long term.

So my question is what is the cost difference to compete with these three schools.
I am assuming the olympic sports will stay in their current conference so football is the only added expense. I doubt the Montana schools would be kicked out of the Big Sky. The MVFC schools already play in separate conferences UC-Davis would be the same. Maybe the CAA would kick out JMU maybe not.

(02-17-2017 02:19 PM)MJG Wrote: We will have three lower level independents Army and BYU are different.
BYU and Army have tradition and TV deals that make independence easier.
If five more schools would join Liberty ,U Mass and NMSU it could work long term.

So my question is what is the cost difference to compete with these three schools.
I am assuming the olympic sports will stay in their current conference so football is the only added expense. I doubt the Montana schools would be kicked out of the Big Sky. The MVFC schools already play in separate conferences UC-Davis would be the same. Maybe the CAA would kick out JMU maybe not.

Liberty is an anomaly when it comes to FBS finances. You can't compare them to JMU, NDSU or any other top FCS school because Liberty can basically print money for the football program where the others can't. The only way a current top state ran FCS school moves up is with a conference invite so they can have access to CFP and conference media money. Unless (and that's a NO for now) the Sun Belt wants two new FCS schools then independence for state FCS schools would be almost impossible.

Wichita St may be an exception if they feel an invite to a better conference could come in the next few years they may take the chance.

Excuse my ignorance, but aren't there several FCS institutions that already operate at similar budgets to many of the Sun Belt, MAC, and C-USA schools? Especially recent call-ups like Charlotte, Old Dominion, Coastal Carolina, etc.

(02-17-2017 02:59 PM)YNot Wrote: Excuse my ignorance, but aren't there several FCS institutions that already operate at similar budgets to many of the Sun Belt, MAC, and C-USA schools? Especially recent call-ups like Charlotte, Old Dominion, Coastal Carolina, etc.

People keep repeating "FBS is too expensive" like it's Gospel, but I'm very familiar with the numbers for Idaho and even without any CFP or FBS conference money Idaho will still lose considerably more money as an FCS school than it would as an FBS Independent.

For the Montanas, who've already basically maxed out the revenue in their markets, maybe it doesn't make sense to go FBS without a conference. But in many other places it may be actually be a better financial decision to go FBS, conference or no.

(02-17-2017 02:59 PM)YNot Wrote: Excuse my ignorance, but aren't there several FCS institutions that already operate at similar budgets to many of the Sun Belt, MAC, and C-USA schools? Especially recent call-ups like Charlotte, Old Dominion, Coastal Carolina, etc.

NMSU will only survive 2 or 3 years as an Indy. After that, count them out of the group.

FBS Independence works for large, wealthy private schools (i.e. BYU, Notre Dame, Army and now Liberty).
UMass will eventually need to find a conference. Even then, ND needs the ACC schools and BYU needs the MW for scheduling and interest for their fans. Liberty will have some SB members who played them not to long ago to help as well as a few CUSA members for some regionals games.

(02-17-2017 03:12 PM)MWC Tex Wrote: NMSU will only survive 2 or 3 years as an Indy. After that, count them out of the group.

FBS Independence works for large, wealthy private schools (i.e. BYU, Notre Dame, Army and now Liberty).
UMass will eventually need to find a conference. Even then, ND needs the ACC schools and BYU needs the MW for scheduling and interest for their fans. Liberty will have some SB members who played them not to long ago to help as well as a few CUSA members for some regionals games.

Several top FCS schools do not have any troubles getting to play P5 schools. Look at Eastern Washington? The past couple of years, they played 2 P5 FBS conference teams a year from the PAC 12. I do think they could set up a schedule alliance with both the PAC 12 and the MWC if they go to FBS. Even if some of the CAA and MVFC could find schedule alliances with FBS schools as well with the Southern and Southland schools. I could throw OVC as well. Those 6 conferences at the FCS is the top conferences of the FCS level.

(02-17-2017 02:59 PM)YNot Wrote: Excuse my ignorance, but aren't there several FCS institutions that already operate at similar budgets to many of the Sun Belt, MAC, and C-USA schools? Especially recent call-ups like Charlotte, Old Dominion, Coastal Carolina, etc.

Operating at the same level of weakest FBS teams is not really the test--nor should it be. It could be argued that those lowest level programs should be in jeopardy of being removed from FBS rather than serving as the bar to reach FBS status.

Liberty is a unique case. Tons of money sloshing around indicating they are more than capable of financially supporting an FBS program. They have adequate facilities. The real clincher for them is that their controversial religious beliefs likely would prevent them from ever getting an FBS conference invite. It could be easily argued, at least in Liberty's case, that the conference invite requirement was an effective religious test. That's a argument with significant merit and a court case the NCAA would likely lose. It was a battle not worth fighting. Losing it would possibly destroy one or more portions of the FBS-FCS firewall. Granting a waiver to Liberty leaves the firewall in place. It might still get overturned if challenged, but Im sure the thinking was the next school to file suit likely wont have near the legal case Liberty had.

The Sun Belt has asked members to play only one money game a year.
Their conference revenue is the CFP so two money games for NMSU equals SBC revenue with one money game.
The problem is scheduling enough games that would not be a problem with a group of independents working together.
Montana and NDSU sometimes play up for 500k that would change to 1.3 million.
That 800k difference from one game which could be two games make up the cost difference.
For Montana or NDSU it would mean no D2 games a money game that pays more and a tougher but manageable schedule.
I guess it really depends on who moved up.
For Montana this below vs SUU ,UNC or D2 schools
Idaho,NMSU,MSU,NDSU,SDSU,U Mass and Liberty would be an improvement as far as yearly schedule.
Add two money games two G5 H&H and an old FCS rival for most of the schools.

(02-17-2017 02:59 PM)YNot Wrote: Excuse my ignorance, but aren't there several FCS institutions that already operate at similar budgets to many of the Sun Belt, MAC, and C-USA schools? Especially recent call-ups like Charlotte, Old Dominion, Coastal Carolina, etc.

Operating at the same level of weakest FBS teams is not really the test--nor should it be. It could be argued that those lowest level programs should be in jeopardy of being removed from FBS rather than serving as the bar to reach FBS status.

That's right. If a school wants a waiver of the conference-invitation rule, they should have to show that they have the resources to survive in FBS long-term as a football independent.

Having a budget that's one dollar more than that of some established FBS conference member — who has 8 or 9 guaranteed conference football games each year — is nowhere near enough to justify a waiver allowing a school to transition as an independent.