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I wish I could go into more detail - I cannot - but I am aware of one event when Ueshiba Morihei, at the height of his powers, was humbled by another martial artist. (No, I'm not talking about his first youthful encounter with Takeda Sokaku, or Sagawa Yukiyoshi's account of grabbing Ueshiba's arms and rendering him unable to move). For those who are curious, I will not say more, and I don't want to engender a "twenty-questions" side-track on the thread. I'm simply raising this point because I've heard very creditable evidence that puts paid to the idea that Ueshiba was an "invincible warrior."
Hagiography undermines study. There is no doubt that Ueshiba Morihei was widely respected among both military and martial arts practitioners in Japan. This idea, however, that there was a general consensus that he was the greatest martial arts practitioner of his time is simply not true. As I pointed out earlier, there were many eminent practitioners who were not that impressed.
Dan Rubin teased me that I'm still Dueling with Osensei. Absolutely right. I'm interested in who he was and what he could really do. Not the martial arts equivalent of "lives of the saints."

Putting aside brain injury and mushrooms, neither of which are necessary anyway, could Ueshiba have been one of the many millions of people who experience synesthesia? Sure, why not? One of my friends just revealed to me that she was blessed with this condition - and described in detail what colors she perceived when she heard various sounds.
Frankly, this thread is getting side-tracked on the subject, so let's bring it back to center.
1. Most people who are healthy who describe synesthesia, talk about either the aesthetic wonders of the experience, how distracting it is, or in some cases, savant skills (different numbers have different colors, enabling one savant to calculate at astonishing speeds). I do not recall ever reading about synesthesia contributing to physical abilities.
2. This discussion pre-supposes that Ueshiba was out-standing, in the sense that his skills surpassed those of any and all - thereby needing a special beyond human power. Most of Ueshiba's skills were not unique to him. The one's that were beg a question - are they merely fantasies that his students - and he - told? Or did he have paranormal powers as well? So, perhaps we can break down his 'powers." He could evade attack of even multiple individuals, and grab like a vice, and break your bones if he chose. Certainly, these are skills held by many. He had a high level of skill in "aiki" - (there, that was quick) - but he was not alone in this. Others equaled or surpassed him, both in Japan or elsewhere. Some, however, questioned his skills then and now. Kunii Zen'ya of Kashima Shin-ryu publicly derided Ueshiba and aikido. On of my own teachers stated to me that Ueshiba's sword work was inept, citing the way he did Yokokiuchi (striking a bundle of sticks). "When done properly, you strike one point every time. Eventually, the sticks are broken through, but the bark, except for that one point, is untouched. Ueshiba-san just whacked away like he was doing exercise." The magic accounts - seeing beams of light, Shioda's claim that Ueshiba had soldiers fire at him and he dodged the bullets and ended up behind them, the atemi Ueshiba allegedly did to a top judo man, crippling him forever. Interestingly, Shioda was a source of a lot of these. Another example would be Terry Dobson's account of attacking him full force and finding himself wafted up in the ionosphere, gazing down at the azure ball of the earth, and then falling through the atmosphere BOOM! - to "awake" on the tatami, with Ueshiba gazing, amused, in his eyes, or the calling up of the malevolent kami that sickens Mariye Takahashi I must say, my favorite was the time the uchi-deshi asked Ueshiba if he could teleport and he materialized at the top of the stairs and they asked him to do it again and he got mad and said that it took ten years off his life (and I can't help wondering how many years each practice rep pared away). Nonetheless, these stories are beyond aiki stories - and it's either a case of "where there's smoke, there's fire," or "smoke and mirrors."
IF such things exist, then one would be required to undertake esoteric training. Ueshiba is not the only one of whom such things have been described. I've heard of other budoka who also, allegedly, had paranormal powers. So, for those interested in such, mikkyo, shamanistic practices, lots of mushrooms - something extra is required.
However, the first two items - "aiki" included - are, by all reports, a matter of meticulous practice, good teaching and hard work.
No brain damage required.
Ellis Amdur

A lot of misinformation about O'Sensei comes from embellished accounts of his feats. I believe most of these accounts are fictional in some part. However, like most myths and legends, there are kernels of truth that exist in each account and it is those kernels from which we need to extract probable truths. I think Occam's Razor applies often in most of these accounts.

For example, is it more likely that Ueshiba Sensei was able to calculate with incredible precision projectile range? It would explain much more than just seeing bullets... Michael Jordan used to shoot free throws with his eyes closed. When asked why he said he could see the basket and where to shoot whether his eyes were open or not. What about hitting a baseball, tennis ball? I certainly cannot return a 120mph serve.

For example, is it more likely that Ueshiba Sensei was well-conditioned from his overly physical life. I know several farmers who are strong, lean, and well-conditioned as the result of their chores. I also know several athletes who are well-conditioned from their sports. O'Sensei was conditioned over a number of activities. It does not suprise me in the least that he was strong, fit, and athletic (wasn't there a stry about hitting a hole-in-one the only time he played golf?).

There are far too many valid reasons that both satisfy Occam's Razor and are consistent with the truth kernels that thread through several stories about O'Sensei. But, I think the [convenient] position of O'Sensei as a supreme being removes the pressure (and expectation) of aikido people to achieve a skillset in aikido that is envied by peers in other martial communities. I think in searching for truth we need to keep a neutral perspective and understand that O'Sensei did not live in the Matrix.

There is more than one power category when talking about Ueshiba. (I leave aside all the spiritual "myths")

1. The first is purely muscular. Ueshiba at his best before he met Takeda. The muscle power driving farming, carpentry, etc for most of the world. But, somehow, I doubt that this is the kind of power that Iwata Sensei, or Ellis for that matter, are focused.

This kind of power is mentioned by either Sagawa or some of his students. I had to give up power to get power. Sagawa could toss people like rag dolls when old but couldn't open a jar of food. Etc.

This kind of power can be used for MMA, BJJ, wrestling, and some jujutsu where muscle along with timing can replicate "hard within soft" or the radial tire analogy of rubber around steel.

2. Internal Power. No, not aiki. This is a power level generated by structure and frame and an internally built body. It is force generated from very little distance (if any). Even this can be divided into categories using "ground", "store and release", "whip", etc. Not all work the same but each can generate various levels of power depending on how well (i.e. the right training) the person has trained. This can be the power to snap bones.

3. The third ... for lack of a better term, let's call it aiki as learned from Takeda. This "power" of aiki can be generated between human bodies but not between a human and an inanimate object. It's best summed up by the Daito ryu men saying that aiki is making the other person do what you want ... but in a way that manifests softness without the requirement of timing. Power over another person in appropriately matching energy that comes out as ghosty feeling, running into a mountain that isn't moving, just being moved without a choice, etc. This is the true hard within soft, the rubber over steel, etc. all the way to completely soft and ghosty without resorting to timing.

#1 is fairly easy to accomplish, most people can attain it without tremendous effort, and it's something that a lot of martial artists have experienced. It isn't the kind of power that made Ueshiba famous.

#2 and #3, IMO, are what Takeda taught. He blended them together to create a very different martial body that most other martial artists didn't comprehend, but knew instantly in a hands-on experience that it was the "Holy Grail", if you will.

#2 alone wouldn't have done a whole lot of impressing. Yeah, someone has power, but so what? Given a good jujutsu man, or a good fighting man, try using that IP in a dynamic encounter against them. IP alone isn't going to impress 90%-100% of the time. Maybe half the time. Good jujutsu or fighting men will flow around with timing, sensitivity, and skills to negate a lot of openings to use IP, especially some of the slower IP generating methods.

#3 alone might have impressed people. Considering that the ghosty feeling and the being controlled would amount to creating a whole lot of martial openings for strikes and throws. But, that isn't the only thing we read about Ueshiba. As Ellis' article notes and as some of the students noted, Ueshiba had power in his grip. Ueshiba felt like a jolt of electricity at points in his life. He had juice and used it.

Can you separate out #2 and #3 from the aiki men? IMO, no. Not them (others, perhaps). They integrated both and used it in a "fighting" manner, with and without weapons. It was the combination of both that made other high ranking and skilled martial artists take note of them.

But, just how far did Ueshiba take those skills? Unfortunately, I don't have any answers for Ueshiba. Just all the myriad of articles about him.

I don't see what you mean. He did instruct H2H at the Imperial Naval Academy. In other words, he was respected at the highest levels of the military.

I mean beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.

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Also, from the clip, it's not very good because it opens when the action has just passed and you can't well tell what anyone is doing.

But you have just said: "Yet there's a famous video of Ueshiba allowing several MPs to try to take him and he disappeared from their grips with ease." What happened?

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However, I can see that most of those guys are very big and if you look at them in the following scenes, they all look in good shape. But one thing we do know: their job was go out and drag in unruly US fighting men who had just recently been at war. So, though they may not look like much, they are big and they were arresting fighting men for a living.

Yes, they were big but arresting untrained (in hand to hand) drunken sailors/grunts for a living doesn't make one an authority on unarmed martial arts. BTW, the war was won by brave men with guns, not by superior wrestling skills.

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Also, there are the written accounts by the men in that group and by others who observed. I believe one of those MPs was Robert W. Smith,

I wish I could go into more detail - I cannot - but I am aware of one event when Ueshiba Morihei, at the height of his powers, was humbled by another martial artist. (No, I'm not talking about his first youthful encounter with Takeda Sokaku, or Sagawa Yukiyoshi's account of grabbing Ueshiba's arms and rendering him unable to move). For those who are curious, I will not say more, and I don't want to engender a "twenty-questions" side-track on the thread. I'm simply raising this point because I've heard very creditable evidence that puts paid to the idea that Ueshiba was an "invincible warrior."

Ellis,

I was thinking of that story when I said that no one was known to have stood successfully against Morihei.

Still, in all those years…never to have encountered anyone who could give him pause, especially in a culture of such extreme martial values as Japan...it would seem, with a little thought, to be unlikely. Of course, Takeda must have been stronger or Morihei wouldn't have followed him. So there's one. Maybe Sagawa--go ahead and count that as two...And then there's this one other person whom I will believe bested Morihei simply on your very credible word.

So three people seem to have "gotten over" on Morihei in his many decades among Japan's toughest. That's still dang good.

Actually, Mochizuki Sensei openly said that he often gave Morihei "a hard time" in randori and Morihei supposedly said, "Minoru, I constantly have to change my techniques because of you!"

A sword with no nicks may well be a sword that was never used.

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Ellis Amdur wrote:

As I pointed out earlier, there were many eminent practitioners who were not that impressed.
Dan Rubin teased me that I'm still Dueling with Osensei. Absolutely right. I'm interested in who he was and what he could really do. Not the martial arts equivalent of "lives of the saints."

When I read "The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail" and first encountered the idea that Jesus might well have been married and had children, it shook me up, but then I thought, in a way, that makes him far more real and still doesn't prevent his serving the functions I understood him to serve.

If Morihei had never encountered anyone anywhere near his level, that sounds like PR. And again, I've wondered (even speculated) about what would have happened had he gone up with Mifune or Toku Sampo.

Still, he was way up at the top of the mountain with only a few other men at that time in history. They were all great and all of them were far above the level that most people ever had or ever would reach.

Thanks for mentioning that.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

[quote=Jon Reading;263787](wasn't there a stry about hitting a hole-in-one the only time he played golf?).[/indent]
The one where the rays of golden light came out of the hole afterward?

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Jon Reading wrote:

There are far too many valid reasons that both satisfy Occam's Razor and are consistent with the truth kernels that thread through several stories about O'Sensei. But, I think the [convenient] position of O'Sensei as a supreme being removes the pressure (and expectation) of aikido people to achieve a skillset in aikido that is envied by peers in other martial communities. I think in searching for truth we need to keep a neutral perspective and understand that O'Sensei did not live in the Matrix.

I was thinking earlier of someone's comment that the Japanese martial artists were more impressed by Ueshiba's visions and psychic abilities than his martial power, which point I protested.

I think that's true, however, of American aikidoka. To my knowledge, the earliest American aikido men were judoka and jujutsuka who were looking for a more effective martial art and they found it with Tohei (in general). No doubt they were fascinated by the other stories as well, but their primary purpose was martial.

As years went by, though, people with no martial interest at all became drawn to aikido because of the "woo woo" aspects and I think those people and the students that follow them have become (I would guess) a mass majority.

Still, Morihei Ueshiba provided something that has been an incredible source of enrichment for my life, both physically and philosophically, so I will always be grateful to him (and Sokaku Takeda and Minoru Mochizuk, et al), no matter, ultimately, that they were still humans.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

But you have just said: "Yet there's a famous video of Ueshiba allowing several MPs to try to take him and he disappeared from their grips with ease." What happened?

I think there is a better or more complete version of that or similar incidents. Anyway, did you see any of the MPs get hold of him--or keep standing when they did?

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote:

Yes, they were big but arresting untrained (in hand to hand) drunken sailors/grunts for a living doesn't make one an authority on unarmed martial arts. BTW, the war was won by brave men with guns, not by superior wrestling skills.

Well, they went up against whoever they had to. And I think any soldier who had come through the war was going to be pretty tough. I also would not disdain anyone who had no formal training as being a push-over--especially not an experienced combat veteran from the US Navy, Army or Marines. I'm not saying they or the MPs were gods, but they weren't stumble bums. Any MP serving in post-war Japan must have been a handful and I doubt many of today's (American) black belts would find them easy to handle.

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote:

I can't believe R.W.Smith was one of those MP's. Check your sources.

That's from memory of things I've read. I think I did say, "I believe Robert Smith was among them" (approximately). But, actually, I think he was. In fact, I'm thinking he was the guy Ueshiba threw once with shiho nage. I don't know.

Best wishes.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

I believe that Mr. Smith writes a good bit about his history in Martial Musings.

Never read that. Maybe I've seen excerpts. Is he also the one who wrote as "Gilbey," all these ridiculous farcical adventures in martial arts?

As for the film clips of the MPs, I've only seen bits of that and most of what I'm familiar with came from people's writing about the event and about the film clips. And as to that, Mifune taught judo for the Air Force after the war, so he could probably have done a similar thing with the MPs. I just know it's way beyond what anyone I currently know could do. Except maybe Dan Harden or Mike Sigman. Or someone who is like 6'5" or something....

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

I think there is a better or more complete version of that or similar incidents.

Maybe. Can you reference it?. Something with more substance than "I think"?. Let us check your data.

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Anyway, did you see any of the MPs get hold of him--or keep standing when they did?

- Ueshiba is outside the circle of attackers when the movie starts. The group of MP's has been obstructed by Ueshiba students.

- Demo of slow paced shihonage with compliant MP who clearly lacks even basic judo landing skills. Look at his left arm.

- Demo of kokyu-ho/nage. MP has no posture even before Ueshiba starts, founder's deshi clashes with MP and he falls like a sack of potatoes.

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Well, they (the MP's) went up against whoever they had to. And I think any soldier who had come through the war was going to be pretty tough. I also would not disdain anyone who had no formal training as being a push-over--especially not an experienced combat veteran from the US Navy, Army or Marines. I'm not saying they or the MPs were gods, but they weren't stumble bums. Any MP serving in post-war Japan must have been a handful

It seems those hardened MP's weren't invited to that demo.

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and I doubt many of today's (American) black belts would find them easy to handle.

Surely, but we're not talking about the Mcdojoization of martial arts in the USA

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That's from memory of things I've read. I think I did say, "I believe Robert Smith was among them" (approximately). But, actually, I think he was. In fact, I'm thinking he was the guy Ueshiba threw once with shiho nage. I don't know.

This is what you wrote:

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Also, there are the written accounts by the men in that group and by others who observed. I believe one of those MPs was Robert W. Smith, who was a contemporary of Donn Draeger's...

The probablility of Smith being one of those men is very, very, very remote. I suggested to you to check your sources, but Ellis did it for you.

It seems to me you're reaching conclusions about Ueshiba's power based in mixed and unnacurate memories of things you've read or watched some time ago filtered by your mental frames. Don't worry, I do the same.

Anyway, who were the skilled budoka Ueshiba defeated in hand to hand combat? Names? Places? Circunstances?

Was Ueshiba respected by his peers or we have a case of tatemae at its best?

Maybe. Can you reference it?. Something with more substance than "I think"?. Let us check your data.

Nope. That's it. As I said elsewhere, I've read purported eyewitness accounts and people's descriptions of the video. There are many such videos of Ueshiba escaping mass attacks of that sort. But we did see him demonstrating on individuals. And think of Shioda's handling of Robert Kennedy's bodyguard--a huge guy, as well. I'm thinking Ueshiba could do pretty much anything his student, Shioda, could.

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote:

- Ueshiba is outside the circle of attackers when the movie starts. The group of MP's has been obstructed by Ueshiba students.

Yes. That's not a great clip. Notice that I didn't post it. I don't know if there are others. But it does show Ueshiba on a rooftop surrounded by US MPs. So can you give me reason to doubt the descriptions that he easily evaded them?

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote:

- Demo of slow paced shihonage with compliant MP who clearly lacks even basic judo landing skills. Look at his left arm.

Well, even people with advanced judo degrees tended to have a bad ride from folks like Takeda, Sagawa and Ueshiba. I don't think he was trying to kill them.

Second, remember what he said when he was asked to demonstrate for the Emperor? The real technique kills the attacker with a single blow. Every demonstration he ever did was therefore "a lie".

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote:

It seems those hardened MP's weren't invited to that demo.

Again, you can't guess how able those men were. It was quite common for highly trained men to look awkward around Ueshiba. Very common.

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote:

Surely, but we're not talking about the Mcdojoization of martial arts in the USA

Well, Demetrio, I was being polite. What I really meant was "Western" black belts--and I don't mean cowboys, but those outside Japan. Even if a combat vet didn't have hundreds of hours of hand-to-hand training, every minute of it was aimed at total domination (usually by death) of the opponent. Whereas with all gendai budo there is a certain amount of "play" involved (thus the terms "aikido player" and "judo player"), whatever training those MPs had included no element of play. Moreover, they learned some really sneaky and dirty material. And you might never guess their ability just to look at them.

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote:

The probablility of Smith being one of those men is very, very, very remote. I suggested to you to check your sources, but Ellis did it for you.

Well, is that a game changer for you? What if it was or wasn't Smith? In the link Ellis posted, they tell Smith he would not be able to take the ukemi for O Sensei's throw--and he was a highly experienced judo man...

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote:

It seems to me you're reaching conclusions about Ueshiba's power based in mixed and unnacurate memories of things you've read or watched some time ago filtered by your mental frames.

Not at all, Demetrio. I reached my conclusions about Ueshiba's power by training with his direct students, feeling their irresistible power and knowing that they were his students and had never reached his level. I remember how they talked about him, as if he were as far above them as they were above me. They had real ability and Ueshiba was far beyond them.

All I'm doing here is casually commenting on various trivia of film clips and demos, none of which has great weight in and of itself.

Of course, if I were going to make scientific claims about any of it, I would go to more trouble to document exact statements and cite exact sources, none of which is necessary in making casual, conversational, non-scientific comments.

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote:

Anyway, who were the skilled budoka Ueshiba defeated in hand to hand combat? Names? Places? Circunstances?

I don't believe he is recorded to have had any actual fights to the death with anyone. But he did teach hand-to-hand combat at the Imperial Naval Academy and to police throughout Japan. And there are some events recorded where people challenged him and went away humbled. Do you think Tenryu's opinion is meaningless? Ueshiba also accepted a challenge and ended one man's career because he simply let him go when he threw him, instead of holding on and controlling the man's fall. And they say he felt really bad about that, so he quit doing that kind of thing.

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote:

Was Ueshiba respected by his peers or we have a case of tatemae at its best?

Let's see…Sokaku "loved him best" of all his students. Tenryu was humbled when he simply grabbed Ueshiba's arm. He taught experienced military men at the Naval Academy...

But I guess you're right. All those people really knew they could beat him at any time. They just let him hang around because he was old and had nowhere else to go.

Err....make that "old and brain damaged and had nowhere else to go."

David

Last edited by David Orange : 08-30-2010 at 08:22 PM.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

David, I'm not going to adress your last post because I feel you are not going to change your mind nor you change mine, but

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Of course, if I were going to make scientific claims about any of it, I would go to more trouble to document exact statements and cite exact sources, none of which is necessary in making casual, conversational, non-scientific comments.

Well, when you tell me who the guys were who bested Morihei or who thought he was a slouch, I'll be glad to hear that, too.

Ask Ellis. As I told you before, I'm out.

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Until then, all I've heard from you is hearsay and unsupported statements.

Quid pro quo.

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Just remember that Tadashi Abe thought he could beat Ueshiba Sensei with one punch, and what Mochizuki Sensei told him.

If Mochizuki sensei remembrances were correct after 40 years of the event, he downed Abe (a young aikido newbie at that time) with a kick. Big deal, a judo/karate/aikijujutsu expert beating an untrained kid.

If Mochizuki sensei remembrances were correct after 40 years of the event, he downed Abe (a young aikido newbie at that time) with a kick. Big deal, a judo/karate/aikijujutsu expert beating an untrained kid.

Yeah, but the point is, Abe was certain that Ueshiba didn't have the goods. And what kind of expert could Mochizuki have been since he learned from Ueshiba, who was not a respected teacher, by your accounts.

As yet, you've never given any real examples of anyone who could beat Morihei. You've just contradicted all my statements and mere contradiction is not an argument.

But don't let me keep you. I know you have better things to do.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

I wish I could go into more detail - I cannot - but I am aware of one event when Ueshiba Morihei, at the height of his powers, was humbled by another martial artist.

Not trying to tease an identity out of you, but I do have one question: "Was it just a better martial artist or a better martial art?"

Did some koryu guy beat Ueshiba's daito ryu with deeper, more martial principles, or did someone simply catch Ueshiba out as a better fighter at that particular moment? Was it real superiority or a fluke? (okay, that's really more than one question, but we're not being scientific here, are we? I'm not going for twenty questions or to figure out a name.)

After all, Sagawa said that he was able to stop Sokaku Takeda's aiki age once and he apparently said that he once did the same to Ueshiba once. So was it the man or the art (or both) that failed in this incident?

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

A shiho nage on a beginner and kokyu ho with two ukes? I've done those things countless times, and I certainly don't have any special power.

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David Orange wrote:

Again, you can't guess how able those men were. It was quite common for highly trained men to look awkward around Ueshiba. Very common.

But Morihei's students don't look awkward? It looks like typical aikido ukemi. You do realize that what you are seeing in that clip is cooperative practice. Look at how much better Morihei looks with his own students, while the awkward beginner is actually "harder" to throw. Nothing out of the ordinary there.

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David Orange wrote:

But it does show Ueshiba on a rooftop surrounded by US MPs. So can you give me reason to doubt the descriptions that he easily evaded them?

As for the move as the clip starts, that was undoubtedly the one Morihei liked to do where the uke encircle him then attack simultaneously and he enters behind one of them ending on the outside of the circle. What's interesting is that one of those MPs had good instincts and actually followed Morihei and ended behind him!

Guess that's at least four losses. No one's perfect…

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki

Some, however, questioned his skills then and now. Kunii Zen'ya of Kashima Shin-ryu publicly derided Ueshiba and aikido. On of my own teachers stated to me that Ueshiba's sword work was inept, citing the way he did Yokokiuchi (striking a bundle of sticks). "When done properly, you strike one point every time. Eventually, the sticks are broken through, but the bark, except for that one point, is untouched. Ueshiba-san just whacked away like he was doing exercise."