Christians must cooperate to help the persecuted Church, Pope tells Patriarch

Pope Francis, pictured on Saturday, expressed concerns for Christians persecuted in the Middle East

I am aware that you are deeply concerned for the situation of Christians in the Middle East, he tells Patriarch of Constantinople

Pope Francis has called for increased cooperation among Christians to protect religious freedom and the right to promote Christian values in society without discrimination.

In a message delivered on Saturday to Orthodox Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, he said there is “an urgent need for effective and committed cooperation among Christians in order to safeguard everywhere the right to express publicly one;s faith and to be treated fairly when promoting the contribution which Christianity continues to offer to contemporary society and culture”.

The pope’s message was carried to Patriarch Bartholomew by Cardinal Kurt Koch, president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, who led a Vatican delegation to Istanbul for the feast of St. Andrew the Apostle, the patriarchate’s patron saint.

In his message, Pope Francis also called for continued prayers and greater dialogue in efforts to bring peace to the Middle East.

“I am aware that you are deeply concerned for the situation of Christians in the Middle East and for their right to remain in their homelands,” he wrote the patriarch.

“Dialogue, pardon and reconciliation are the only possible means to achieve the resolution of conflict,” he wrote. “Let us be unceasing in our prayer to the all-powerful and merciful God for peace in this region, and let us continue to work for reconciliation and the just recognition of people’s rights.”

Pope Francis wrote that many Christians in many parts of the world still experience discrimination “and at times pay with their own blood the price of their profession of faith.”

He noted that 2013 marked the 1,700th anniversary of the Edict of Milan – a proclamation of tolerance of Christianity throughout the Roman Empire, which is often seen as a symbol of the first affirmation of the principle of religious freedom.

The edict “put an end to religious persecution in the Roman Empire in both East and West, and opened new channels for the dissemination of the Gospel,” he wrote.

“Today, as then, Christians of East and West must give common witness so that, strengthened by the spirit of the risen Christ, they may disseminate the message of salvation to the entire world,” the pope said.

Pope Francis also mentioned the upcoming 50th anniversary of the historic encounter in Jerusalem between Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras, the meeting in 1964 that set the stage for Catholic-Orthodox reconciliation and dialogue.

“God, the source of all peace and love, has taught us throughout these years to regard one another as members of the same family. For indeed we have one Lord and one savior,” the pope wrote.

In his address to the Vatican delegation in Istanbul, Patriarch Bartholomew said he believed Pope Francis “will constitute a renewed inspiration for the common journey of our two churches toward the world in order that we may assume social and moral initiatives for the consolation of humanity, which is suffering from diverse global crises.”

He underlined the importance of joining the pope for his expected visit to Jerusalem in 2014 to commemorate Pope Paul’s meeting with Patriarch Athenagoras. Meeting in Jerusalem would usher in a new season of ecumenical dialogue, Patriarch Bartholomew said.

Ecumenical talks have not been very productive so far, the patriarch said, because they mostly have been “monologues where each side presented its own positions and arguments.”

Future dialogue must “discern the teaching of the Lord and his apostles, as this was experienced and witnessed by the common patristic theology of the undivided church.”

Pope Francis also wrote in his message that he wished “to pursue fraternal relations between the Church of Rome and the Ecumenical Patriarchate” and build upon “the depth and the authenticity of our existing bonds.”

In his recent apostolic exhortation, “Evangelii Gaudium” (“The Joy of the Gospel”), the pope wrote about the important things that already unite many Christians.

“If we really believe in the abundantly free working of the Holy Spirit, we can learn so much from one another,” he wrote, for example, “in the dialogue with our Orthodox brothers and sisters, we Catholics have the opportunity to learn more about the meaning of episcopal collegiality and their experience of synodality.”

Pope Francis said the presence of Patriarch Bartholomew at the 2012 Synod of Bishops on new evangelization was “a true gift from God and a precious Christian witness.”

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Joshua Speed

Fix your awful fractured Novus Ordo modern Mass, Pope Francis. The Orthodox do not like your modern Liturgy.

NatOns

True, but many ‘Orthodox’ in New Rome and Third Rome do not like Rome .. even if they like Pope Francis.

‘Pope Francis said the presence of Patriarch Bartholomew at the 2012 Synod of Bishops on new evangelization was “a true gift from God and a precious Christian witness.”’

God Bless Our Pope, and give strength to those who witness to Christ with him – as a true gift from God.

prakash

Yes they do not like Latin and what is your point?

Julian Lord

Patriarch Bartholomew is officially visiting our Archdiocese later this month — sadly, I don’t think I’ll be here for the occasion.

Gandolf

Religious cults persecute people by use of shunning and excommunication. They split up families causing depression .Mistreat some ex members so very badly ,they end up committing suicide.

So hopefully Pope Francis cares enough to also want to help protect these sorts of people’s right to also have some more religious freedom.This sort of suffering and persecution has been left to continue onward ,for very many generations now already. And Christians worldwide cared to do very little about it.

Sadly it will take a certain amount of “regulation” of religion, to ever achieve this freedom.

The thing is. The act of upholding human freedom, doesn’t mean people should necessarily be allowed to just do what ever they want. Does it

For instance . To help uphold humans right to continue to live healthy happy lives , on our roads. There is also the need to have “certain amounts” of regulation. Such as speed regulation . Regulation of the vehicles road worthiness . And so on

Religious practice is no different. Just allowing people to do what ever they want. Doesn’t necessarily help uphold freedom. Does it

Dave

Well, now I understand why I can’t get a permit from the county for human sacrifice.

Gandolf

That would be murder Dave.

Wikipedia suggests persecution as “the systematic mistreatment of an individual or group by another individual or group. The most common forms are religious persecution, ethnic persecution and political persecution, though there is naturally some overlap between these terms.”

While wikipedia might not be known as top dog, within academia. Its still ok for reference

Besides.

The Mirriam webster dictionary defines persecution as

1.the act or practice of persecuting especially those who differ in origin, religion, or social outlook

2. the condition of being persecuted, harassed, or annoyed

So seems persecution isn’t defined as death, Dave.

See the thing is this. If Christians are not prepared to help draw the line a little more closer to where religious persecution “starts”. Then they cant be all so surprised. can they. When it suddenly gets way out of hand ,and goes far too far.

You allow such nastiness to have ability to continue to prevail . You’ll also need to reap of some of that what you helped sow

As an atheist . I got to be honest and say, i like the new Pope. I grew up among religious persecution within a religious cult .Many others and myself personally experienced the full extent of the ongoing harm cause by this form of religious persecution.

This new Pope seems to have a real honest heart.

That’s whats really most-needed within this world today , Dave .

Dave

I cannot entirely follow your line of reasoning, nor what sort of regulations you seem to think religion needs. My quip about human sacrifice was simply to illustrate that the law does in fact regulate religious practice. Likewise, those guilty of persecution and discrimination are subject to the law–though most legal systems, unlike Webster, would not define ‘the condition of being annoyed’ as persecution–a few weeks ago a pair of Jehovah’s Witnesses buzzed my door until my children were woken from their naps and crying, which was very annoying, but I would not call it persecution.

I can readily sympathise with people who have experienced persecution, as my own family are refugees from an atheistic state, my father was a victim of torture and many members of my wife’s family, who are from the Ukraine, were victims of the Holodomor. Naturally I have a particular revulsion when those of my own religion, Christians and Catholics, have harmed others.

Hope

In Argentina just a week ago, there was a horrendous attack on young men who were trying to protect the Cathedral in San Juan. The men who stood peacefully praying, were spray painted, harrassed, spat upon and taunted by several lesbian women many of whom were topless and who performed the most obscene acts in front of these courageous young men. These attacks have been going on for a number of years in Argentina but they seem to be getting worse. This too is persecution of Catholics. What does the Pope have to say about what is going on in his own country. Perhaps he has said something but I didn’t hear anything yet…we have to pray for all those who are persecuted for their faith most especially in the Middle East and Africa but now also in other countries where people are facing open and hateful persecution for their beliefs for simply upholding the values of life.

Gandolf

Dave the law may regulate religious practice as far as regulating against murder. As you pointed out with regards to your quip about human sacrifice .Yet the law does not regulate the right of religion to continue to persecute people.

I agree with you that the Jehovah’s Witnesses scenario you spoke of , would be annoyance rather than persecution.

There is a number of Christian domination’s worldwide who are still actively involved in splitting up family. Using excommunication of family members, and enforcing act of separation and shunning, as a way to try and enforce their faith back upon people.These extremist closed groups have strict rules in place, that enforce church family, to need to treat any excommunicated family members, as if they were dead.

This goes way above mere annoyance. And causes certain humans to need to experience extreme harm.Our health systems have to try their best to repair the damage.

The form of religious separation and shunning they enforce. Is indeed the use of systematic psychological torture . Without violence.

Part of the ongoing hatred of Christianity . Has its connection’s in history, to persecution applied by Christians trying to enforce their beliefs on people. And some of this lingers on.

I can even provide links online to help prove how this form of persecution still exists, if you wish.I wont do so , because i do not wish to clog up this thread.But there is plenty of evidence available online . For people interested in finding out about it .

Sadly for many generations now , too many people have just far preferred to turn a blind eye to it.

My point is if Christians continue to help allow extremist groups within Christianity to retain the right to include forms of “persecution” as part of their religion. Then we have good reason to expect there will also be certain people who will begin to really dislike ,and may even want to persecute Christians in return.

The general uprising we see against Christianity that exists worldwide at this present moment in time. Is due in part to Christians, having “helped” allow certain groups of Christians, to have the continued freedom to cause harm to people. In a number of cases, causing extreme harm.

Christians worldwide “help” allow this harm to continue . When they don’t take any personal action themselves, toward having it stopped.

Gandolf

Maybe prayer is a good idea. But more action is also whats always been needed.Had more action been taken “earlier”, against act’s of persecution. This sort of situation might have been prevented

I’m an atheist. Yet i don’t agree with the way these folk were spray painted,harassed,spat upon and taunted. I don’t like seeing or hearing about it.

However there is still reasons why these people might react in the way they do. Fact is, these people may honestly feel like religion in the past,or present, has actively persecuted rights of gay folk.

In the past when slavery was still an ongoing issue . In the end, black people reacted in anger, retaliating against the persecution they felt they had experienced.

Much the same situation apples here.

Gandolf

Comment edited . This comment that has been edited, was mistakenly posted, when using email to format another comment.

Not a hope in Tartarus of that happening. Pope Bozo has now shown that clown masses are OK – here’s the proof:

“The scourge of clown masses has led inevitably down that slippery slope to … a clown pope.
The Trads are right. All is lost. Never mind the image of Francis
embracing the disfigured man that has gone viral and inspired so many.
This is what we need to worry about…”

## Despite the sarcastic dismissal of Traditionalist concerns, the report is very revealing. Some of us think that mucking up the Liturgy matters one Hell of a lot. I can barely wait until we have a Catholic Pope – it cannot be too soon. I’m sick of:

Popes who play Bozo
Papal contempt for the Sacred Liturgy
the hypocrisy of Papal complaining about liturgical abuses while committing them
the “here today, gone tomorrow” Nu Mass
the making of the Mass into an endless succession of shocking surprises
the turning of Catholic priests ordained to offer the Eucharistic Sacrifice into Protestant pastors
the collapse of Catholicism, aided and abetted by the Popes & other bishops
Papal substitution of their own fantasies for Sacred Tradition
Papal pan-religionism
Papal puking on Sacred Tradition
jacuzzi-like pools in churches
glass altars
the Papal reversal of Summorum Pontificum.
propaganda lies from Papal yes-men
pornography-loving bishops
bishops who profane their cathedrals by allowing Muslim or Protestant rites
the denial of the Gospel to the Jews
Goddess-worshipping nuns
bishops who cosy up to the EUSSReich
bishops who shift paedo priests from parish to parish
cardinals with boyfriends
Italian bishops who suck up to characters like Andreotti or Berlusconi, then throw them over when they become inconvenient
The heresy that claims the Jewish Covenant is not superceded
Hebrew Catholicism – which is just a Church-approved form of syncretism
the pathetic attempts of the Papacy to pretend we are living in a period of renewal
the unwearying lies of Paul VI and many of his subordinates that the Old Mass was no longer to be offered. And JP2 wanted to to canonise the man !
the destruction of the missions
the wilful confusion of missionary work with dialogue.
ARCIC and its heresies, & the pre-meditated deceitfulness of those who composed the documents
the corruption of the Church by pseudo-ecumenism
the pseudo-apologies & hypocrisies of JP2
the Balamand Agreement
the heresy of JP2 that the Orthodox schismatics are part of the Church of Christ

With zombies, Judases & fantasists like the Popes since & including J23 in charge, no wonder the CC is falling apart.

And the Neo-Caths struggle desperately to pretend that Orgoglio’s uncanonical, unjust & wicked denial of liberty to offer the Old Mass in the FFI was in accord with Summorum Pontificum – even though the author of SP, a former Pope, called Orgoglio’s action a “wound”. Such is Papal good faith & constancy. Rome’s Nu Religion of Man – a step down from the Revolutionary Goddess Rason, adored on the high altar of Notre Dame – is constant only in its changefulness.

Dave

I have no doubt what you are talking about exists. But I very much doubt more than a very small minority of Christians of any sort regard ostracism, shunning or psychological torment anything but abhorrent, let alone help or encourage such techniques of social control. The trouble is that, although it is easy to see how practices cause harm, it is very difficult to find workable solutions to stop them from occurring–the social and legal difficulties involved are huge.

Gandolf

Quote Dave : “But I very much doubt more than a very small minority of Christians of any sort regard ostracism, shunning or psychological torment anything but abhorrent, let alone help or encourage such techniques of social control.”

Quote Edmund Burke : “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.”

You know Dave, you might even be a little surprised how many will still actively use it . To some degree . Unless you personally happen to be caught up within one of these extremist groups yourself. You may not even know that much about how many extremist Christian groups actually exist

Lets look at this from another angle .Lets say “just for interest sake” , that if Islamist’s “were not” actively involved in opposing Islamist extremists persecution of Christians. Would this be helpful ? to the plight of persecuted Christians . Or would it be more likely to help encourage ? Islamist extremists.

I would totally agree that its “not easy” to find solutions . But still , we need ? to at least try.

Little doubt, back in times passed, people might have also discussed the “social and legal difficulties involved ” in trying to stop ongoing-acts of human sacrifice from happening too , right ? . Yet somehow they managed to find ways to attend to it.

You do? realize “the social difficulty” is “huge” too . If these faith abuses would continue to remain unattended.

You understand ? , that part of the “back-lash” we see happening against Christianity these days. Must surely be, at least , “partly” due to these ongoing faith abuses having been continually overlooked.

The world needs a good example set, of how to go about attending to ongoing faith abuses.At the root of the problem.Otherwise Matthew 7:5 would ? apply . Do you? think

I’d really love to know what Pope Francis thoughts are on this subject

I guess jihadists would use the same arguments as your US sponsored friends

Dave

It is not a matter of good men doing nothing, via Burke, but good men lacking the capacity, in a legal and practical sense, to stop religiously motivated ostracism and psychological control. Again, such things are terrible, but you still have not put forth what you propose as a solution?

First of all shunning is not in of itself considered an unlawful act. It is not against the law to refuse to talk to a family member. And while the legal situation differs from country to country, it is commonly accepted that religious organisations, like any organisations, have the right to expel members and enforce discipline. In certain cases, some common law countries will review whether or not a religious group has followed their own regulations in administering discipline and might reverse an religious group’s decision if it does not conform to their own prescribed rules, but that is about it. Notably in America, even that sort of interference in religious discipline is very unlikely to be taken because of the protection of the First Amendment. It is also very often the case that the victims of religious abuse and ostracism themselves consent to the punishment they receive, which makes the uncovering of abuse, let alone prosecuting very difficult. Where action can be taken, it is generally limited to liability, such as claims made against business losses, or just maybe damages to familial relationships or spousal alienation. That is, depending on the country, one might be able to recover fiscal losses incurred as a result of such treatment. It is not clear how one could formulate a law that would prevent religious groups from punishing people who engage in such actions, without impinging on guaranteed rights and freedoms. It is not that such cult behaviour and religiously-motivated abuse it ignored, it is that there is no means of affecting an adequate solution. In some non-democratic countries you could ban and suppress such groups, which might work, but in a modern democracy that is not going to happen.

Thomas Poovathinkal SSP

“Ecumenical talks have not been very productive so far, the patriarch
said, because they mostly have been “monologues where each side
presented its own positions and arguments.”

Our Pope in the beginning of his Peterine ministry spoke of the Church being “self-referential”. Inward-looking, closed in on oneself, compund-bound, in-breeding, occupied with itself, selfish, a law unto itself – all perhaps mean the same thing showing the depths to which the decent has taken place. WE ALL, all Churches, need to REPENT and believe in the Good News and enter the KINGDOM OF GOD leaving aside the tradition and example of the Pharisees.

Thomas Poovathinkal SSP

“monologues”, one’s own “positions and arguments” in favor of the self as against GOD THE TRUTH.

Thomas Poovathinkal SSP

Let us forget LATIN and go back to the Language of Jesus the Lord and his very PERSON, Pope Francis please. The environment of the Lord, and all things about him will descend on us.

Thomas Poovathinkal SSP

???

Gandolf

Interesting discussion Dave . And thanks for keeping it civil . Its massive to be able to discuss an issue like this with a theist , without it getting too-personal . Cheers for that !

You know , i’m pretty sure it never used to be an illegal act either, to incite hatred. In the UK for instance . Up until the racial and religious hatred act 2006 , came in . So i don’t see how the “non-democratic” suggestion, can even be applied

Would you suggest ?, that the religious hatred act 2006 , was arrived at by some means that were “non-democratic”.

Secondly you say “interference in religious discipline is very unlikely to taken because of the protection of the First Amendment”

Yet in regard to the first amendment . Evidently . In 1878, the supreme court was first called to interpret the extent of the Free Exercise Clause in Reynolds v United States, as related to the prosecution of polygamy under federal law. The Supreme Court upheld Reynolds’ conviction for bigamy, deciding that to do otherwise would provide constitutional protection for a gamut of religious beliefs, including those as extreme as human sacrifice.

I agree . That to not regulate would be to (help allow) a gamut of religious beliefs .

So lets just cut to the chase. Its pretty obvious ? isn’t it . That the human right to have total freedom of religion is an untenable option. And in any real honest truth of the fact . No such thing as “freedom of religion”, even exists

You seem to ask of me, to provide detailed information of how such measures would even be applied. IE quote: “you still have not put forth what you propose as a solution?”

I simply don’t even see good reason, for my need to provide any such in depth details here .When my point remains, that its obviously been able to be achieved already . In a “number of instances” too.

Unless you can prove that freedom of religion “cannot” be regulated. Then why ? would i even have any reason to need to point out how it can actually happen. My point is thus already proved, simply in the fact, that certain amounts of regulation of religion ,can be shown to already exist.

The finer details of how it would actually be done . Would seem to be a moot point ,for the moment, within this limited discussion happening here on this page right now. To try and cover all aspects here, would be to do a great disservice to the subject in question.

You also said “First of all shunning is not in of itself considered an unlawful act. It is not against the law to refuse to talk to a family member”

Yes i agree .Its impossible to enforce speaking terms between family members. But surely its a whole different kettle of fish ,when its a religious “group” , “systematically” involved in using cover of religious-freedom, as a form of tyranny. Actively involved in (inciting family members) to need to shun and separate from each other.

You cant tell me that this is the same thing as one family member deciding entirely on their own steam, to choose to not speak to another family member.

I suggest . Maybe we need to cut to the chase about this Dave. This is a whole different situation.

The “systematic” act of “inciting members” to need to shun and separate . Is comparable to inciting need of hatred (re the religious hatred act 2006)

I don’t expect us to agree on this . But i would like to see you be able to show where i’m wrong.

You said “It is not that such cult behaviour and religiously-motivated abuse it ignored, it is that there is no means of affecting an adequate solution.”

I still maintain, that you have failed, to be able to prove why this is so (IE: “no means of affecting an adequate solution”) . And i also maintain that many religious folk, do indeed , seem to choose, to prefer to ignore this situation of ongoing “systematic faith abuses”. Whether they do so, “by intent” ,or otherwise. Is beside the point.

They seem to have convinced themselves, that religion remains unregulated . Yet its easy to tell this is obviously wrong.

Gandolf

The Pope also has a good sense of humor. And supports red nose day . A fund raising event

Whats so bad ? about that

Dave

A few points:

I do not understand the nature of your inferences about the Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006. What I said about the First Amendment in America is perfectly correct: the courts in America do not in practice interfere with disciplinary measures, such as shunning, in regards to religious communities, for example the Amish or Jehovah’s Witnesses. Rightly or wrongly, that is a fact. The prosecution of polygamy, which is a crime, is irrelevant.

“No such thing as “freedom of religion”, even exists”
On the contrary, freedom of religion exists as a defined principle in national and international law.

“You seem to ask of me, to provide detailed information of how such measures would even be applied. IE quote: “you still have not put forth what you propose as a solution?””
A general, vague or broad suggestion would be welcome. You are not obliged to solve all the world’s problems in a single post.

”Unless you can prove that freedom of religion “cannot” be regulated. Then why?”
Of course, freedom of religion is subject to legal regulation. But shunning, religiously motivated ostracism and such methods of social control are not in themselves crimes and no one to date, in spite of considerable legal debate, has formulated an acceptable law which would stop such practices from occurring, whilst respecting established and guaranteed rights and freedoms.

“The “systematic” act of “inciting members” to need to shun and separate . Is comparable to inciting need of hatred (re the religious hatred act 2006)”
Morally both are wrong. But while the latter is prosecutable under the law, the former, unless a specific crime has been committed, is not.

“I don’t expect us to agree on this . But i would like to see you be able to show where i’m wrong.”
In numerous counties, there have been legal challenges to groups such as the Amish, Scientologists and Jehovah’s Witnesses and various cults which use ostracism and other methods as a means of social control over members and as a means to persecute ex-members. The matter has been discussed from a number of legal perspectives. So far, no one has devised a law which will end such practices—I cannot demonstrate that nobody will ever be able to formulate such a law in the future anymore than I can prove that a cure for the common cold will never be found. But I cannot myself find a solution for either, and to the best of my knowledge, neither has anyone else. I do not see, in a practical and legal sense, that it would be possible to legally differentiate between situations where religious groups are exercising their legally recognised and guaranteed right to chose their own religious community members and cases where such a guaranteed right is enabling the abuse and persecution of members or former members. That is not to say that I regard such practices as anything less than abhorrent, only that I do not perceive how to affect a solution. If you disagree then I only wish you all the luck in the world in finding a solution. It is not that I “choose, to prefer to ignore this situation of ongoing “systematic faith abuses“, it is merely that I have no more means of preventing them, than I have of preventing the common cold. There is a considerable difference between indifference and incapacity, between ignoring something and being unable to stop it from happening.

m parker

This persecution of Christians we hear so much about today in the Middle East, is being perpetrated by those following a faith that permits them to do so.They are reading words which are allegedly from a divine source, which tell them to violently subjugate those who do not believe as they do, to enable their faith to be “proclaimed over all religion” Unless this fundamental fact is acknowledged and exposed in full measure, this persecution will continue unabated, and indeed will spread its cancerous roots to further afield, as has been evidenced within in the U.K.recently,and not so recent.
The need to expose the hostile verses held within the pages of this faiths alleged holy texts, which drives this persecution to exist in the first place, is of the utmost importance,and long overdue, and will in due course alert those ignorant of how this faith operates in reality to change things for the better, eventually. When you have teachings which tells its adherents to be severely hostile towards those who do not share their belief, to be the ONLY faith, then it is only common sense that this will manifest itself into hostile actions, as it has done so since its inception.
It is to be hoped for then, that all sections of society including Christian Church’s will take the initiative, to enable this exposure to take place, not to do so will make those who do not, complicit in the slaughter taking place now, and in the future.

Julian Lord

The Christ most likely was a fluent speaker of Latin, given that He grew up to be (among other things) an artisan worker in a Roman Bath Town, Market Town, and Garrison Town.

Otherwise, the lingua franca of 1st century Palestine was of course Greek, as evidenced for starters in the language of the Gospels.

Gandolf

My reference to the Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006 . Is merely to show “an instance” of where society can make moves to try and address personal/social problems , happening between people. If society can move to address those who choose to incite religious hatred . Then there would seem to be no reason that society couldn’t also move to address those whom would choose to incite harmful faith abuses

Yes i agree that ” America do not in practice interference with disciplinary measures, such as shunning, in regards to religious communities, for example the Amish or Jehovah’s Witnesses.” .

You go on to say “The prosecution of polygamy, which is a crime, is irrelevant.”

I do not see it as being irrelevant . Just the fact that “prosecution of polygamy” actually occurs .

1. Proves that “freedom” of religious practice is indeed a fallacy
2. Prove that certain religious practices can indeed be deemed illegal
3. Proves that more laws could obviously also be invoked that could then help protect humans against serious faith abuses

You said “On the contrary, freedom of religion exists as a defined principle in national and international law.”

But this contradicts what you have written.
1 First you admit that the practice of polygamy is a crime that is deemed illegal (you might be likely to also admit the ancient religious practice of human sacrifice ,is deemed illegal also too)
2 Next you suggest “freedom of religion exists as a defined principle in national and international law”

Both these claims cannot be totally correct , can they ?.

This links in with what i said previously . That religious folk seem to have “convinced themselves”, that religion still remains unregulated .As if its a honest fact .

If “i were” asked to provide a general, vague or broad “suggestion” as to how such regulations could be put into practice. For starter’s i would suggest that all interested parties, from the different domination’s, could first gather together to discuss these issues in great depth. To see what ways there might be,that such issues could be dealt with. I’m not the type of person who wishes to become the instigator of draconian law. I would far prefer that religious folk moved forward, to try and find ways to fix these issues, themselves.

1.This could happen . If enough religious folk chose to get behind it .

2.”In my opinion” . In time to come . It will surely need to happen anyway . Whether religious folk would care to help make it happen, or not. Simply because , there is too much extremely harmful practices remaining within certain religious practices. To allow it to continue forever.

The difference between outcome of 1 and 2 . Is 1 can help show how religious folk care to help fix these issues. Where is 2 will tend to show how they don’t seem to care enough to help fix extreme harm still happening within certain religious practices.

Im not trying to be nasty in saying this. I’m just giving a honest opinion of how this looks publicly.

You said “The matter has been discussed from a number of legal perspectives. So far, no one has devised a law which will end such practices”

We do often publicly see plenty of evidence of “christian groups” active in rallying politician’s and government, with regards to gay marriage , abortion ,euthanasia issues etc.Yet it seems we never ever see ? any public evidence of Christian groups actively involved in trying to address these issues of ongoing faith abuses. For instance , i doubt you could provide links ? which could show evidence of Christians getting publicly involved in addressing this faith abuse issue.

I doubt that this does the Christianity movement , public relation , any real favor . In fact i’m quite sure it actually causes the Christian movement , very much harm.

It would seem to me to be of little use,for Christians to be pointing to scripture that may suggest that in the end times all nations will hate and persecute Christians . When Christians would seem to almost help allow good reasons, for Christians to be hated.

When i publicly see Christians involved in trying to address ongoing faith abuses . As in often seeing news of it on TV , and reading about it often within new papers , and online etc .I will then be willing to accept that Christians have indeed demonstrated how they honestly tried to address these issue of faith abuses .

I don’t accept that Christians can prove how they really attempted to address faith abuses. We would all see and experience at least some real evidence of it , if they actually had . (As we do with other social issues . ,abortion,gay marriage ,euthanasia ,etc)

Anyway . I think you and i might have just about covered all we can cover here . I’ve pretty much said all what i have to say. I will let you wrap-up this discussion , within your reply. But once again i would like to thank you for the civil form of constructive discussion iv’e experienced .

James M

“Pope Francis has called for increased cooperation among Christians to protect religious freedom and the right to promote Christian values in society without discrimination.”

## In principle, excellent – the only question is, what does he mean by “religious freedom and the right to promote Christian values in society without discrimination”

Many other Christian bodies are, even in principle, anti-abortion. It is very pleasant to be to say that some of them manage to be both theologically strongly Protestant, and as opposed to abortion as any Pope could desire.

I would like to see much more done by Catholics to help non-Catholics persecuted by non-Christians, as in India, China, & elsewhere.

“If we really believe in the abundantly free working of the Holy Spirit, we can learn so much from one another,” he wrote, for example, “in the dialogue with our Orthodox brothers and sisters, we Catholics have the opportunity to learn more about the meaning of episcopal collegiality and their experience of synodality.”

## Agreed. It really should not be necessary for this to be necessary.

James M

If there is only one true Faith, and if it is revealed by God, and if it supposed to be spread to the entire world, Muslim antagonism to all other religions is a sacred duty. It would be a great sin for a convinced Muslim to tolerate any false religions. This is after all pretty much how OT Saints like Moses, Elijah, Josiah & the Maccabean martyrs thought. There in no room, in God’s country or God’s world, for ungodly teaching.

Muslims have the right idea – where they are mistaken, is in identifying Islam as the religion revealed by God. They ought to be Catholics, as the CC is the One True Church. It should be needless to say that the True Faith can be properly spread only by means that reflect the Character & Mind of its Divine Founder.

## This is close to persecution, and is profanation of a cathedral. It serves the bishop right for “host[ing] [a] syncretic “commemorative liturg[y]” because of the Kristallnacht of 1938 in the German Reich” – see separate repor[t] “Young Catholics protest against “misuse” of the Cathedral of Buenos Aires for Jewish “commemorative liturgy””:

## ISTM that a bishop who profanes a cathedral freely, or does not rebuke bishops who do, cannot complain when others profane his cathedral against his will. Why should others care a jot for the sacred character of a Catholic cathedral or a Catholic Liturgy, when bishops not only perform or tolerate heretical or syncretistic rites, but do so in Catholic cathedrals ? I have sympathy for the bishops concerned – they went begging for these profanations, and now they have what they wanted; my sympathies are for the much-enduring Catholic faithful.

Dave

Very nice chatting, adieu.

“But this contradicts what you have written.
1 First you admit that the practice of polygamy is a crime that is deemed illegal (you might be likely to also admit the ancient religious practice of human sacrifice ,is deemed illegal also too)
2 Next you suggest “freedom of religion exists as a defined principle in national and international law” Both these claims cannot be totally correct , can they ?.”
I am not sure where you think there is a contradiction. It should be very easy to find information on ‘freedom of religion’ as a legal principle on the internet, if you really don’t believe me that it exists. Freedom of religion does not entail freedom to break the law.

“Yet it seems we never ever see ? any public evidence of Christian groups actively involved in trying to address these issues of ongoing faith abuses. For instance , i doubt you could provide links ? which could show evidence of Christians getting publicly involved in addressing this faith abuse issue. ”
You could look up the ‘Anti-Cult Movement’ on the internet and quickly find many Christian groups that claim to do just that. In my view, such Christian groups are undesirable: any group working against religiously motivated abuse should be religiously unaffiliated. If one is going to challenge seriously religiously motivated abuse, the last thing one wants it to be accused of using such challenges as a way of promoting one religion over another.

Jon Brownridge

James – Catholics like you we do not need. Your comments are a disgrace and your shameless sacking of the Holy Father is despicable.

m parker

“It should be needless to say that the True Faith can be properly spread only by means that reflect the Character & Mind of its Divine Founder.”

Agreed, Jesus was a man of peace whose message changes people for the better, reflecting the Character & Mind of its Divine Founder.

“It would be a great sin for a convinced Muslim to tolerate any false religions.”
Indeed, that is why he is commanded not to tolerate them, but to fight those who do not believe as he believes, until such time as they do.
Hence the proliferation of persecution of Christians, and others seen throughout the world today.

Carla

The catholic church MUST demonstrate its strong support for persecuted Christians all over the world.
THANK YOU POPE FRANCIS for this initiative.
Yesterday I watched on TV a film about the horrible persecutions of Christians in southern Sudan. The bishop looked into the TV camera, asking “where are you, all the Christians in the world”? And:”WE FEEL ABANDONED” And: we ask ourselves: “what is going on”?
Then, at the end, I saw the date of this film:2001!!!!!!! And they still feel abandoned.
I have tried to make our German parish priest mentioning their plight(in general) but he categorically refuses to utter the Word “persecuted christians”.
This is very, very disturbing.