JP Morgan analysts who met with top Apple executives note that the company's leadership views both its own iPhone 3GS and Amazon's Kindle Fire as devices that will attract customers to iOS as they "gravitate to more feature-rich experiences."

Moskowitz said he left the meeting "confident in our view that Apple can continue offering feature-rich, user friendly product experiences to sustain the companys above-peer revenue and earnings growth power."

Prior to the meeting, JP Morgan had increased its fourth calendar quarter iPhone sales estimates from 25 million to 28 million, while the firm "slightly lowered" its iPad sales estimates.

After meeting with Apple's executives, Moskowitz wrote, "our view is that the iPhone raise is reasonable and that our iPad trim might have been too cautious."

iPhone 4S sales not slowing, iPhone 3GS finding new customers

Moskowitz expressed the view that iPhone sales were not losing momentum, reiterating the view that iPhone 4S sales had not plateaued since the new model's launch.

The note also stated that Apple views the iPhone 3GS, its first free model, as "a good dynamic for the iPhone family," observing that while it is not a top seller, it is "introducing Apples products to a wider audience of customers."

Kindle Fire not pressuring iPad, may expand tablet interest

Regarding iPad sales, Moskowitz wrote that "Apple appeared confident in its position of strength in the tablet market continuing," adding that the company is not too concerned about low priced competitors.

"If anything, we think that Apple views the Kindle Fire as a device that stands to bring incremental consumers to the tablet market, and here, these consumers could gravitate to more feature-rich experiences," Moskowitz wrote. "In other words, we think that Apple is not seeing much pressure from lower-priced tablets, yet."

Moskowitz also commented on Apple's plans for its cash, noting that the company focused its cash discussions "around its investments in product pipeline, supply chain, and retail footprint," rather than entertaining ideas of a stock buyback or didivend payout.

"In our view, we think that the use of cash issue has received too much attention of late, due to investor concerns over slowing tablet sales," Moskowitz said, adding, "we expect that investors will begin to refocus on the revenue and earnings power of Apple once the December quarter is in the books and there are no signs of deteriorating sales momentum."

"If anything, we think that Apple views the Kindle Fire as a device that stands to bring incremental consumers to the tablet market, and here, these consumers could gravitate to more feature-rich experiences" Moskowitz wrote.

What?

If anything, Kindle Fire users will want to secure their Amazon media content (apps, music, books, apps, et al.) investments by moving on to more 'feature rich' Android devices like the Samsung Galaxy Tab or similar.... NOT Apple/iOS Devices.

It's completely nonsensical to believe that a Kindle Fire owner would just all of a sudden decide to toss much of the aforementioned content just to move to an IOS-powered iPad.

"If anything, we think that Apple views the Kindle Fire as a device that stands to bring incremental consumers to the tablet market, and here, these consumers could gravitate to more feature-rich experiences" Moskowitz wrote.

What?

If anything, Kindle Fire users will want to secure their Amazon media content (apps, music, books, apps, et al.) investments by moving on to more 'feature rich' Android devices like the Samsung Galaxy Tab or similar.... NOT Apple/iOS Devices.

It's completely nonsensical to believe that a Kindle Fire owner would just all of a sudden decide to toss much of the aforementioned content just to move to an IOS-powered iPad.

Well aren't you the genius. Since you can access amazon content on an iOS device your argument makes no sense. eBooks, there is an iOS Kindle app for that. Music from amazon, you can download directly into iTunes. Access the amazon marketplace, there's an Amazon app for that. And of course, Apple devices can access the website as well. No "tossing" required. Duh!

"If anything, we think that Apple views the Kindle Fire as a device that stands to bring incremental consumers to the tablet market, and here, these consumers could gravitate to more feature-rich experiences" Moskowitz wrote.

What?

If anything, Kindle Fire users will want to secure their Amazon media content (apps, music, books, apps, et al.) investments by moving on to more 'feature rich' Android devices like the Samsung Galaxy Tab or similar.... NOT Apple/iOS Devices.

It's completely nonsensical to believe that a Kindle Fire owner would just all of a sudden decide to toss much of the aforementioned content just to move to an IOS-powered iPad.

People are willing to break contracts worth up to $325 to get an iOS device, what makes you think they wouldn't dump a $200 dollar tablet to do the same?

"If anything, we think that Apple views the Kindle Fire as a device that stands to bring incremental consumers to the tablet market, and here, these consumers could gravitate to more feature-rich experiences" Moskowitz wrote.

What?

If anything, Kindle Fire users will want to secure their Amazon media content (apps, music, books, apps, et al.) investments by moving on to more 'feature rich' Android devices like the Samsung Galaxy Tab or similar.... NOT Apple/iOS Devices.

It's completely nonsensical to believe that a Kindle Fire owner would just all of a sudden decide to toss much of the aforementioned content just to move to an IOS-powered iPad.

Amazon's Android interface is a lot different than Samsung's, so casual users may not relate the two. In addition, typical android users don't buy apps so there is less money being wasted if they move to iOS. And there are ample Amazon apps for iOS.

People are willing to break contracts worth up to $325 to get an iOS device, what makes you think they wouldn't dump a $200 dollar tablet to do the same?

What's crazy about his post is he thinks "Kindle Fire owner would just all of a sudden decide to toss" it without any thought or planning to make their next tablet purchase fully featured upgrade.

These entry level tablet buyers are very likely to find that they just don't need a tablet, like the tablet experience (if Kindle Fire is bad), or want a more compete tablet experience. For this reason Amazon wil need to expand both their OS and the display size along with other engineering upgrades if thy want to keep many from jumping to the iPad with their next tablet purchase.

This bot has been removed from circulation due to a malfunctioning morality chip.

"If anything, we think that Apple views the Kindle Fire as a device that stands to bring incremental consumers to the tablet market, and here, these consumers could gravitate to more feature-rich experiences" Moskowitz wrote.

What?

If anything, Kindle Fire users will want to secure their Amazon media content (apps, music, books, apps, et al.) investments by moving on to more 'feature rich' Android devices like the Samsung Galaxy Tab or similar.... NOT Apple/iOS Devices.

It's completely nonsensical to believe that a Kindle Fire owner would just all of a sudden decide to toss much of the aforementioned content just to move to an IOS-powered iPad.

I agree with them. Windows forced me to switch to Macintosh... Even though I had tons of software designed for Windows - I had had enough. And I've never looked back.

Well aren't you the genius. Since you can access amazon content on an iOS device your argument makes no sense. eBooks, there is an iOS Kindle app for that. Music from amazon, you can download directly into iTunes. Access the amazon marketplace, there's an Amazon app for that. And of course, Apple devices can access the website as well. No "tossing" required. Duh!

...and of course all of those Android apps from that Kindle Fire that can so easily be run on iOS devices - Oh Wait!

People are willing to break contracts worth up to $325 to get an iOS device, what makes you think they wouldn't dump a $200 dollar tablet to do the same?

Because smartphones are largely considered near necessities by modern society (as communication devices, etc.), whereas tablets have yet to achieve anywhere near that status, instead looked upon more as luxury devices/toys.

...and of course all of those Android apps from that Kindle Fire that can so easily be run on iOS devices - Oh Wait!

I don't think kindle users invest in a noticeable portion of premium Android apps or Any Android apps at all. Chances are if you got a Kindle fire, you would only invest in books and other sort of readable medium, seeing that the whole marketing behind the thing is essentially pointing towards those features, which can easily be transferred to an iOS device.

I don't think kindle users invest in a noticeable portion of premium Android apps or Any Android apps at all. Chances are if you got a Kindle fire, you would only invest in books and other sort of readable medium, seeing that the whole marketing behind the thing is essentially pointing towards those features, which can easily be transferred to an iOS device.

Hmm, Actually... The "whole marketing behind" behind the Kindle Fire is that of a media consumption device, and said media includes "thousands of popular apps and games, including Netflix, Hulu Plus, Pandora, and more"

My personal Kindle Fire already has 100+ apps, some 65% of which are paid/premium apps, and I'm likely not the only one which such an app library on the Kindle Fire, given that it's so well-suited for running them.

...and of course all of those Android apps from that Kindle Fire that can so easily be run on iOS devices - Oh Wait!

Android-using cheapskates don't spend much money on apps, so they won't have very much to lose and besides most of the developers' apps offer a much richer experience on iOS devices. I don't think that every consumer that buys a Kindle Fire is cheap, though. Maybe they just want to experiment to see if they have use for a tablet and the Fire is a low-cost entry. Who knows if they'll notice the shortcomings of the Fire since maybe that'll all they need in terms of features. I'm all for the Kindle Fire if consumers are deciding to purchase that over the higher priced Android tablets running the latest hardware and Android OS. Too bad Apple doesn't come out with a $300 fully-featured 7" iPad to eat into Kindle Fire sales.

Hmm, Actually... The "whole marketing behind" behind the Kindle Fire is that of a media consumption device, and said media includes "thousands of popular apps and games, including Netflix, Hulu Plus, Pandora, and more"

So the apps Amazon prominently displays are the apps that are both subscription-based and available on iOS. You are just as awesome at making a point as you are not posting overly large pictures for no good reason.

This bot has been removed from circulation due to a malfunctioning morality chip.

So the apps Amazon prominently displays are the apps that are both subscription-based and available on iOS. You are just as awesome at making a point as you are not posting overly large pictures for no good reason.

The fact that you consider mere 640x840 pixel pics 'overly large' explains so much as to your obvious bitterness.

So the apps Amazon prominently displays are the apps that are both subscription-based and available on iOS. You are just as awesome at making a point as you are not posting overly large pictures for no good reason.

LOL I was thinking this too. All the apps are free. What's so hard about moving them to iOS?

The huge amount of publicity about the iPad and other tablets (Fire, Tab, Playbook, etc.) tends to validate the idea that a tablet has become a mainstream device. Users who previously thought they don't need a tablet (because they already have a laptop and a smart phone) may pause to reconsider.

The low price of the Fire may tempt them to have a look at tablets. When they check it out and read the reviews, a lot of them are going to see that the iPad is the market leader for many good reasons.

So the Fire might "kindle" their interest but the iPad may get their business after they do their homework.

As of this post, there are 3,689 customer reviews on Amazon about the product and 492 of said reviews are rated 1 star out of a possible 5 stars, respectively. That is over 13% of people who tried the Fire and gave it the worse rating. If one assumes the people who rated it 1 star returned the Fire, than it's an easy assumption to extrapolate about 13% of the 3.9 million Fires that were shipped were also returned.

So yes, there are a lot of potential customers who might want to try the Apple experience. Just as a side note, in contrast to the 13% disapproval rating for the Fire, 96% of customers were satisfied with the 4S, respectively.

Apparently I'm the only one here who has had DaHarder on ignore for years. Why must you all respond to him?
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Apple is absolutely right. People that buy the Fire will do so because they're not sure they really want a tablet, and aren't going to spend over $500 to get their first one. Once they realize that tablets are great....just not the one they own....they'll move on to something better. That something is called an iPad.

And the 3GS is a great device to keep around as its a phenomenal smartphone, and gets people into the iPhone game for the lowest price possible. So many people who would otherwise not spend $200 on any mobile phone, are getting the 3GS, finding out they can't live without it, and will eventually upgrade to another Apple iPhone.

As of this post, there are 3,689 customer reviews on Amazon about the product and 492 of said reviews are rated 1 star out of a possible 5 stars, respectively. That is over 13% of people who tried the Fire and gave it the worse rating. If one assumes the people who rated it 1 star returned the Fire, than it's an easy assumption to extrapolate about 13% of the 3.9 million Fires that were shipped were also returned.

So yes, there are a lot of potential customers who might want to try the Apple experience. Just as a side note, in contrast to the 13% disapproval rating for the Fire, 96% of customers were satisfied with the 4S, respectively.

Which means the Kindle Fire has a 87/B+ rating. Not bad. I still might get the Nook Tablet. Seems better.

Which means the Kindle Fire has a 87/B+ rating. Not bad. I still might get the Nook Tablet. Seems better.

Go play with them. In person. Make sure the way they feel - the movement between apps, the look of the apps, etc. are pleasant for you. Pick the one you like the feel of the most.

Same thing I tell people who ask me if they should pick Nikon or Canon. Even though I have Canon gear, it's mainly because I like the feel of it - the ergonomics, the menu layouts - just make more sense to me. But we all aren't the same. And now Sony and Olympus are making compelling systems too, so things change over time as well.

Blindly shopping by specs or reviews can help you narrow your choices down, but you really should go experience the devices before selecting one.

And even though $200 is less than $500, I don't know about you but it's still a substantial chunk of change

Go play with them. In person. Make sure the way they feel - the movement between apps, the look of the apps, etc. are pleasant for you. Pick the one you like the feel of the most.

Same thing I tell people who ask me if they should pick Nikon or Canon. Even though I have Canon gear, it's mainly because I like the feel of it - the ergonomics, the menu layouts - just make more sense to me. But we all aren't the same. And now Sony and Olympus are making compelling systems too, so things change over time as well.

Blindly shopping by specs or reviews can help you narrow your choices down, but you really should go experience the devices before selecting one.

And even though $200 is less than $500, I don't know about you but it's still a substantial chunk of change

Which means the Kindle Fire has a 87/B+ rating. Not bad. I still might get the Nook Tablet. Seems better.

Not true. There were a significant numer of 2 star ratings as well, and a bunch of 3's. Most of the 4 and 5 ratings were very terse with their descriptions, leading me to wonder whether these were just rapid entries made by Amazon employees. I don't know what you would consider a B+ rating when mapping from a scale of 1-5, but the most logical arrangement is..

5=A,
4=B,
3=C,
2=D, and
1=F.

(If the scale went from 0 to 4, we could use the traditional GPA mapping, but the scale is one-based, so this is the natural result.)

So it would seem that the Kindle Fire is struggling mightily to even average a "C". So you might want to reconsider your evaluation based on this data and line of reasoning.

Not true. There were a significant numer of 2 star ratings as well, and a bunch of 3's. Most of the 4 and 5 ratings were very terse with their descriptions, leading me to wonder whether these were just rapid entries made by Amazon employees. I don't know what you would consider a B+ rating when mapping from a scale of 1-5, but the most logical arrangement is..

5=A,
4=B,
3=C,
2=D, and
1=F.

(If the scale went from 0 to 4, we could use the traditional GPA mapping, but the scale is one-based, so this is the natural result.)

So it would seem that the Kindle Fire is struggling mightily to even average a "C". So you might want to reconsider your evaluation based on this data and line of reasoning.

Thompson

Wasn't people prasing that 96% of iPhone users are satsified when there's more components to it that we've been led to belive? 87% Satisfied. There.

I dread to think how much these returns and countless hours of customer support is costing Amazon - just adding to their costs.

Bear in mind that Amazon is selling these devices at a loss. hoping to make it up with sales of their media content.

But with razor thin margins of around 2% on content, they have to sell $50 of content to break even on every dollar lost on subsidising Fire.

Quite apart from the admin and other overhead costs of shipping out a loss making product, how much does it cost for a couple of hours support on each Fire to try and sort out the numerous deficiencies?

Even if it just $25 per hour of support x 2 hours = $50 per unit, that makes it necessary for Amazon to sell $2,500 worth of content just to cover support costs in addition to cover the losses to subsidise the Fire in the fist place!

I dread to think how much these returns and countless hours of customer support is costing Amazon - just adding to their costs.

Bear in mind that Amazon is selling these devices at a loss. hoping to make it up with sales of their media content.

But with razor thin margins of around 2% on content, they have to sell $50 of content to break even on every dollar lost on subsidising Fire.

Quite apart from the admin and other overhead costs of shipping out a loss making product, how much does it cost for a couple of hours support on each Fire to try and sort out the numerous deficiencies?

Even if it just $25 per hour of support x 2 hours = $50 per unit, that makes it necessary for Amazon to sell $2,500 worth of content just to cover support costs in addition to cover the losses to subsidise the Fire in the fist place!

1) Can we trust the rating system on Amazon? I know you can't trust them on the App Store. I assume anything high-profile is going to targeted more negatively than it would have had it not been made popular.

2) While the margins are indeed thin and I do think they are selling at a loss we have to consider two things: A) The $50 loss per device might not be accurate, and B) how much that loss per unit could have changed if the Kindle Fire is selling significantly better allowing for economics of scale to reduce the loss, perhaps even allowing the device to become a profit center for Amazon within a year at the current rate of adoption.

3) I'm just trying not to rule anything out as nothing is certain at this time. We'll know more after the holidays, especially after we see Apple's next tablet offering. If within a year Amazon increases better Kindle Fire OS platform by A) using a significant interest in updating the SW, and 2) announcing a larger Fire tablet then I think we can say the Fire is a success from Amazon's PoV to warrant that kind of push.

This bot has been removed from circulation due to a malfunctioning morality chip.

1) Can we trust the rating system on Amazon? I know you can't trust them on the App Store. I assume anything high-profile is going to targeted more negatively than it would have had it not been made popular.

Have you read the complaints in the reviews?

They appear pretty genuine to me.

Also bear in mind that you can only do a review if you have actually bought the product through Amazon.

I buy a lot of stuff from Amazon and find the reviews useful as to whether to buy or not.