Just to test the ever fluctuating opinions of these forum. Upon reading the Valk vs Sidious thread made a couple of years ago, people apparently ranked Valk at DE Sidious-level, or has that changed since?

Honestly, if you really wanted to piss on Failk's grave, you could argue zygote Sheev - or at least one of the younger versions of Sheev - beats him. There's a key line in the Darth Plagueis novel where Sidious muses he has grown "tenfold" over the decades under Plagueis' tutelage. If one interprets it as referring to the point when he first met Plagueis and was initiated into the Order of the Sith Lords, then the 17-year-old Sheev who wasn't even a Sith Lord was already one tenth as powerful as TPM Sidious.

If we scale TPM Sidious near Plagueis, who was able to influence every living organism in the galaxy with his telepathic powers, then we can assume Sidious to be capable of the same. Divide the number of organisms in the galaxy by ten and you get the amount 17-year-old Sheev could affect with his own powers, which is far more than Failkorion ever came close to impinging, and on a redonkulously wider scale too.

The only exposure to Sith teachings Sheev had had at that point was a few illegal texts he had acquired from the black markets, but a few random books shouldn't increase your power that much, and he notes how the tomes deepened his knowledge of ancient Sith history and taught him Sith philosophy with no mention of actual dark side powers, we can safely dismiss the impact they would have had on his development and focus exclusively on the scaling.

Although I'm not sure zygote Sheev who's still in the womb, unlikely to possess any conscious thought, could beat Failk, toddler Sheev or teenage Sheev certainly could if we go by the method I used earlier. Given that they're the closest to a zygote in terms of age, we can round the answer to zygote and vote for him in the polls.

@azronger: It's certainly possible to argue that TPM Sidious is capable of beating Valkorion, but this is going a bit too far, lol.

There's a key line in the Darth Plagueis novel where Sidious muses he has grown "tenfold" over the decades under Plagueis' tutelage. If one interprets it as referring to the point when he first met Plagueis and was initiated into the Order of the Sith Lords, then the 17-year-old Sheev who wasn't even a Sith Lord was already one tenth as powerful as TPM Sidious.

The line was more likely an inexact, hyperbolic measure Sidious used to highlight his wild growth rather than him confirming that he was, literally, ten times more powerful as a whatever-he-was-year-old than he was as a 17-year-old.

I don't know why you're interpreting that literally, at any rate.

If we scale TPM Sidious near Plagueis, who was able to influence every living organism in the galaxy with his telepathic powers, then we can assume Sidious to be capable of the same.

You misread the quote.

And so he had stretched out—indeed, as if invisible, transubstantiated—to inform every being of his existence, and impact all of them: Muunoid or insectoid, secure or dispossessed, free or enslaved. A warrior waving a banner in triumph on a battlefield. A ghost infiltrating a dream.

But ultimately to no end.

The Force grew silent, as if in flight from him, and many of the animals in his laboratory succumbed to horrifying diseases.

-- Darth Plagueis

The text doesn't say that he was able to inform every living being of his existence; it states that he set out to do so, and failed because the Force disobeyed his command. You could make the argument that the Force disobeyed him because it recognized his ability to impact the galaxy in such a manner, but that's implausible because he'd already performed a multitude of actions which would draw the Force's ire by that point such as unbalancing it artificially and manipulating the midichlorians. This attempt was probably the straw that broke the camel's back when it came to the Force's tolerance of Plagueis' antics.

The text even compounds this when it states that "many of the animals in his laboratory succumbed to horrifying diseases" - if the Force had only wanted to stop him from reaching out, why would it also kill the animals in his laboratory? Again, such a response was most likely prompted by the Force's recognition of the danger his quest for power posed; he was becoming too ambitious, and so the Force shut him down.

Do we have any confirmation that TPM Sidious wasn't the strongest Sith who ever lived until that period of time. There are evidences suggest that he was the strongest Sith lord who ever lived even in TPM. The difference between TPM / RotS should be minimum, not only that, now we know people like Maul and Kenobi gets weaker due to their old age, that should apply to Sidious too. Sidious's physical prime is obviously the TPM. Except for the clone body that he acquired in DE.

However, I'd say teenage Sheev has a chance. He blocked Plagueis' telepathic probing, which means Failkorion's telepathy will do bugger all against him. Plagueis, a far more powerful Force user than Failkorion, was buffeted by his fury, so teenage Palpatine's ability to resist Failk's telepathy and ability to stun a far more powerful Force user than Failkorion with his mere fury could scare Valkorion so much he'd die due to a seizure :)

It's certainly possible to argue that TPM Sidious is capable of beating Valkorion, but this is going a bit too far, lol.

Shitting on Failkorion never goes too far.

The line was more likely an inexact, hyperbolic measure Sidious used to highlight his wild growth rather than him confirming that he was, literally, ten times more powerful as a whatever-he-was-year-old than he was as a 17-year-old.

I don't know why you're interpreting that literally, at any rate.

Wait, so if the musings are hyperbole, then Sidious grew less than times more powerful over the decades, which means that the gap between 17-year-old Sheev and TPM Sidious is even smaller. You just argued against your own case, son.

The text doesn't say that he was able to inform every living being of his existence; it states that he set out to do so, and failed because the Force disobeyed his command. You could make the argument that the Force disobeyed him because it recognized his ability to impact the galaxy in such a manner, but that's implausible because he'd already performed a multitude of actions which would draw the Force's ire by that point such as unbalancing it artificially and manipulating the midichlorians. This attempt was probably the straw that broke the camel's back when it came to the Force's tolerance of Plagueis' antics.

The text even compounds this when it states that "many of the animals in his laboratory succumbed to horrifying diseases" - if the Force had only wanted to stop him from reaching out, why would it also kill the animals in his laboratory? Again, such a response was most likely prompted by the Force's recognition of the danger his quest for power posed; he was becoming too ambitious, and so the Force shut him down.

Or maybe what Plagueis was attempting was even more sacrilegious than suffusing the galaxy with the dark side or manipulating midi-chlorians, which happens to be exactly what the text states:

Still in safekeeping on Aborah were texts and holocrons that recounted the deeds and abilities of Sith Masters who, so it was said and written, had been able to summon wind or rain or fracture the skies with conjured lightning. In their own words or those of their disciples, a few Dark Lords claimed to have had the ability to fly, become invisible, or transport themselves through space and time. But Plagueis had never succeeded in duplicating any of those phenomena.

From the start Tenebrous had told him that he lacked the talent for Sith sorcery, even though the inability hadn't owed to a deficiency of midi-chlorians. It's an innate gift, the Bith would say when pressed, and one that he had lacked, as well. Sorcery paled in comparison with Bith science, regardless. But Plagueis now understood that Tenebrous had been wrong about sorcery, as he had been wrong about so many things. Yes, the gift was strongest in those who, with scant effort, could allow themselves to be subsumed by the currents of the Force and become conduits for the powers of the dark side. But there was an alternative path to those abilities, and it led from a place where the circle closed on itself and sheer will substituted for selflessness. Plagueis understood, too, that there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn't master through an effort of will. If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface.

The question of whether he and Sidious had discovered something new or rediscovered something ancient was beside the point. All that mattered was that, almost a decade earlier, they had succeeded in willing the Force to shift and tip irrevocably to the dark side. Not a mere paradigm shift, but a tangible alteration that could be felt by anyone strong in the Force, and whether or not trained in the Sith or Jedi arts.

The shift had been the outcome of months of intense meditation, during which Plagueis and Sidious had sought to challenge the Force for sovereignty and suffuse the galaxy with the power of the dark side. Brazen and shameless, and at their own mortal peril, they had waged etheric war, anticipating that their own midi-chlorians, the Force's proxy army, might marshal to boil their blood or stop the beating of their hearts. Risen out of themselves, discorporate and as a single entity, they had brought the power of their will to bear, asserting their sovereignty over the Force. No counterforce had risen against them. In what amounted to a state of rapture they knew that the Force had yielded, as if some deity had been tipped from its throne. On the fulcrum they had fashioned, the light side had dipped and the dark side had ascended.

On the same day they had allowed Venamis to die.

Then, by manipulating the Bith's midi-chlorians, which should have been inert and unresponsive, Plagueis had resurrected him. The enormity of the event had stunned Sidious into silence and overwhelmed and addled 11-4D's processors, but Plagueis had carried on without assistance, again and again allowing Venamis to die and be returned to life, until the Bith's organs had given out and Plagueis had finally granted him everlasting death.

But having gained the power to keep another alive hadn't been enough for him. And so after Sidious had returned to Coruscant, he had devoted himself to internalizing that ability, by manipulating the midi-chlorians that animated him. For several months he made no progress, but ultimately he began to perceive a measured change. The scars that had grown over his wounds had abruptly begun to soften and fade, and he had begun to breathe more freely than he had in twenty years. He began to sense that not only were his damaged tissues healing, but his entire body was rejuvinating itself. Beneath the transpirator, areas of his skin were smooth and youthful, and he knew that eventually he would cease to age altogether.

Drunk on newfound power, then, he had attempted an even more unthinkable act: to bring into being a creation of his own. Not merely the impregnation of some hapless, mindless creature, but the birth of a Forceful being. The ability to dominate death had been a step in the right direction, but it wasn't equivalent to pure creation. And so he had stretched out-indeed, as if invisible, transubstantiated-to inform every being of his existence, and impact all of them: Muunoid or insectoid, secure or dispossessed, free or enslaved. A warrior waving a banner in triumph on a battlefield. A ghost infiltrating a dream.

But ultimately to no end.

The Force grew silent, as if in flight from him, and many of the animals in his laboratory succumbed to horrifying diseases.

Regardless, eight long years later, Plagueis remained convinced that he was on the verge of absolute success. The evidence was in his own increased midi-chlorian count; and in the power he sensed in Sidious when he had finally returned to Sojourn. The dark side of the Force was theirs to command, and in partnership they would someday be able to keep each other alive, and to rule the galaxy for as long as they saw fit.

--Darth Plagueis

Just tell me that isn't the wankiest excerpt in Star Wars literature.

It isn't just a telepathy feat; Plagueis attempted to manipulate the midi-chlorians of every single living organism in the galaxy to bring about "the birth of a Forceful being." That is why the Force stopped him and killed all his lab animals, but it never intervened with his midi-chlorian manipulation again. So rather than being "the straw that broke the camel's back" or whatever, it was simply a feat that scared the Force itself shitless, so it decided to put a end to it. And indeed, if the Force was required to take such drastic action against him, that kind of in itself confirms Plagueis would have succeeded otherwise.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the level of power Darth Plagueis the Wise operates on. It's a level of power that allows him to outwill and frighten the Force itself; it's a level of power that allows him to achieve Force corruption, telepathy, and midi-chlorian manipulation feats of galactic proportions; and most importantly, it's a level of power that allows him (and TPM Sidious) to one-shot Failkorion tens of times over.

If 17-year-old Sheev is even one-tenth (or even more than one-tenth, as Slayne has ironically argued) of that, it's safe to say he's beyond Failkorion's paygrade too. After all, we have seen Force prodigies like Darth Zannah and Vitiate himself being far above fully trained Force users while they were mere children, and the likes of Darth Cognus rivalling peak Darth Bane without any training in the Force whatsoever, so it doesn't shouldn't be too outlandish to claim that someone with infinitely greater Force potential than any aforementioned characters would be more powerful than Failkorion as a teenager (for a quick comparison of Palpatine and Failkorion's Force potential, the latter was almost 1500 years old at his peak with numerous rituals and artificially gained power elevating him to his current position, and the former as of Dark Empire was… 96. That's younger than pre-Nathema Vitiate, for the record).

So if we round that to the closest of the poll options, zygote Sheev gets my vote.

It's certainly possible to argue that TPM Sidious is capable of beating Valkorion, but this is going a bit too far, lol.

Shitting on Failkorion never goes too far.

The line was more likely an inexact, hyperbolic measure Sidious used to highlight his wild growth rather than him confirming that he was, literally, ten times more powerful as a whatever-he-was-year-old than he was as a 17-year-old.

I don't know why you're interpreting that literally, at any rate.

Wait, so if the musings are hyperbole, then Sidious grew less than times more powerful over the decades, which means that the gap between 17-year-old Sheev and TPM Sidious is even smaller. You just argued against your own case, son.

The text doesn't say that he was able to inform every living being of his existence; it states that he set out to do so, and failed because the Force disobeyed his command. You could make the argument that the Force disobeyed him because it recognized his ability to impact the galaxy in such a manner, but that's implausible because he'd already performed a multitude of actions which would draw the Force's ire by that point such as unbalancing it artificially and manipulating the midichlorians. This attempt was probably the straw that broke the camel's back when it came to the Force's tolerance of Plagueis' antics.

The text even compounds this when it states that "many of the animals in his laboratory succumbed to horrifying diseases" - if the Force had only wanted to stop him from reaching out, why would it also kill the animals in his laboratory? Again, such a response was most likely prompted by the Force's recognition of the danger his quest for power posed; he was becoming too ambitious, and so the Force shut him down.

Or maybe what Plagueis was attempting was even more sacrilegious than suffusing the galaxy with the dark side or manipulating midi-chlorians, which happens to be exactly what the text states:

Still in safekeeping on Aborah were texts and holocrons that recounted the deeds and abilities of Sith Masters who, so it was said and written, had been able to summon wind or rain or fracture the skies with conjured lightning. In their own words or those of their disciples, a few Dark Lords claimed to have had the ability to fly, become invisible, or transport themselves through space and time. But Plagueis had never succeeded in duplicating any of those phenomena.

From the start Tenebrous had told him that he lacked the talent for Sith sorcery, even though the inability hadn't owed to a deficiency of midi-chlorians. It's an innate gift, the Bith would say when pressed, and one that he had lacked, as well. Sorcery paled in comparison with Bith science, regardless. But Plagueis now understood that Tenebrous had been wrong about sorcery, as he had been wrong about so many things. Yes, the gift was strongest in those who, with scant effort, could allow themselves to be subsumed by the currents of the Force and become conduits for the powers of the dark side. But there was an alternative path to those abilities, and it led from a place where the circle closed on itself and sheer will substituted for selflessness. Plagueis understood, too, that there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn't master through an effort of will. If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface.

The question of whether he and Sidious had discovered something new or rediscovered something ancient was beside the point. All that mattered was that, almost a decade earlier, they had succeeded in willing the Force to shift and tip irrevocably to the dark side. Not a mere paradigm shift, but a tangible alteration that could be felt by anyone strong in the Force, and whether or not trained in the Sith or Jedi arts.

The shift had been the outcome of months of intense meditation, during which Plagueis and Sidious had sought to challenge the Force for sovereignty and suffuse the galaxy with the power of the dark side. Brazen and shameless, and at their own mortal peril, they had waged etheric war, anticipating that their own midi-chlorians, the Force's proxy army, might marshal to boil their blood or stop the beating of their hearts. Risen out of themselves, discorporate and as a single entity, they had brought the power of their will to bear, asserting their sovereignty over the Force. No counterforce had risen against them. In what amounted to a state of rapture they knew that the Force had yielded, as if some deity had been tipped from its throne. On the fulcrum they had fashioned, the light side had dipped and the dark side had ascended.

On the same day they had allowed Venamis to die.

Then, by manipulating the Bith's midi-chlorians, which should have been inert and unresponsive, Plagueis had resurrected him. The enormity of the event had stunned Sidious into silence and overwhelmed and addled 11-4D's processors, but Plagueis had carried on without assistance, again and again allowing Venamis to die and be returned to life, until the Bith's organs had given out and Plagueis had finally granted him everlasting death.

But having gained the power to keep another alive hadn't been enough for him. And so after Sidious had returned to Coruscant, he had devoted himself to internalizing that ability, by manipulating the midi-chlorians that animated him. For several months he made no progress, but ultimately he began to perceive a measured change. The scars that had grown over his wounds had abruptly begun to soften and fade, and he had begun to breathe more freely than he had in twenty years. He began to sense that not only were his damaged tissues healing, but his entire body was rejuvinating itself. Beneath the transpirator, areas of his skin were smooth and youthful, and he knew that eventually he would cease to age altogether.

Drunk on newfound power, then, he had attempted an even more unthinkable act: to bring into being a creation of his own. Not merely the impregnation of some hapless, mindless creature, but the birth of a Forceful being. The ability to dominate death had been a step in the right direction, but it wasn't equivalent to pure creation. And so he had stretched out-indeed, as if invisible, transubstantiated-to inform every being of his existence, and impact all of them: Muunoid or insectoid, secure or dispossessed, free or enslaved. A warrior waving a banner in triumph on a battlefield. A ghost infiltrating a dream.

But ultimately to no end.

The Force grew silent, as if in flight from him, and many of the animals in his laboratory succumbed to horrifying diseases.

Regardless, eight long years later, Plagueis remained convinced that he was on the verge of absolute success. The evidence was in his own increased midi-chlorian count; and in the power he sensed in Sidious when he had finally returned to Sojourn. The dark side of the Force was theirs to command, and in partnership they would someday be able to keep each other alive, and to rule the galaxy for as long as they saw fit.

--Darth Plagueis

Just tell me that isn't the wankiest excerpt in Star Wars literature.

It isn't just a telepathy feat; Plagueis attempted to manipulate the midi-chlorians of every single living organism in the galaxy to bring about "the birth of a Forceful being." That is why the Force stopped him and killed all his lab animals, but it never intervened with his midi-chlorian manipulation again. So rather than being "the straw that broke the camel's back" or whatever, it was simply a feat that scared the Force itself shitless, so it decided to put a end to it. And indeed, if the Force was required to take such drastic action against him, that kind of in itself confirms Plagueis would have succeeded otherwise.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the level of power Darth Plagueis the Wise operates on. It's a level of power that allows him to outwill and frighten the Force itself; it's a level of power that allows him to achieve Force corruption, telepathy, and midi-chlorian manipulation feats of galactic proportions; and most importantly, it's a level of power that allows him (and TPM Sidious) to one-shot Failkorion tens of times over.

If 17-year-old Sheev is even one-tenth (or even more than one-tenth, as Slayne has ironically argued) of that, it's safe to say he's beyond Failkorion's paygrade too. After all, we have seen Force prodigies like Darth Zannah and Vitiate himself being far above fully trained Force users while they were mere children, and the likes of Darth Cognus rivalling peak Darth Bane without any training in the Force whatsoever, so it doesn't shouldn't be too outlandish to claim that someone with infinitely greater Force potential than any aforementioned characters would be more powerful than Failkorion as a teenager (for a quick comparison of Palpatine and Failkorion's Force potential, the latter was almost 1500 years old at his peak with numerous rituals and artificially gained power elevating him to his current position, and the former as of Dark Empire was… 96. That's younger than pre-Nathema Vitiate, for the record).

So if we round that to the closest of the poll options, zygote Sheev gets my vote.

What a load of moronic crap....

This part:

Drunk on newfound power, then, he had attempted an even more unthinkable act: to bring into being a creation of his own. Not merely the impregnation of some hapless, mindless creature, but the birth of a Forceful being. The ability to dominate death had been a step in the right direction, but it wasn't equivalent to pure creation. And so he had stretched out-indeed, as if invisible, transubstantiated-to inform every being of his existence, and impact all of them: Muunoid or insectoid, secure or dispossessed, free or enslaved. A warrior waving a banner in triumph on a battlefield. A ghost infiltrating a dream.

But ultimately to no end.

The Force grew silent, as if in flight from him, and many of the animals in his laboratory succumbed to horrifying diseases.

Taken from Star Wars: Darth Plagueis

- imply nothing more than utter failure on the part of Darth Plagueis to pull off that kind of feat - a non-feat in short.

The Force is not a sentient being with emotions: Force-users cannot frighten it or make it happy. You need to revisit the basics of the Force before you pass such silly verdicts.

The Force refers to a mysterious energy field produced by the living beings of the Star Wars mythos:

An energy field generated by all living things, binding the galaxy together.

Taken from Star Wars: The Dark Side Sourcebook

--

The Force simply is. It has existed as long as life has flourished in the galaxy, and will endure as long as the life remains. It has been called an energy field, and in many ways this is true, though it cannot be measured by conventional or technological means.

The Force have a Light side and a Dark side (an interpretation of its life-giving and life-taking properties), and this duality is the ultimate source of conflict throughout Star Wars history:

Taken from Star Wars: Force and Destiny

Taken from Star Wars: The Dark Side Sourcebook

--

Historians have recorded the role of Force-sensitive beings in momentous events since the earliest days of the Republic. Force users fought in many pivotal conflicts, from the ancient and nigh-mythical battles between the Jedi and Sith to the recent conflicts in the galaxy-spanning Clone Wars. They have counseled governments and led Empires. They have brought both strife and peace to the galaxy.

Taken from Star Wars: Force and Destiny

Force-users are in the position to influence the balance between Light side and Dark side through their actions:

Decide the future of the galaxy and determine the fate of your allies and enemies – your every action drives the galaxy closer to the light or dark side of the Force.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic

--

Taken from Star Wars: Force and Destiny

--

The light side and dark side are always present, constantly struggling for balance in the galaxy and within individual beings.

Taken from Star Wars: The Dark Side Sourcebook

--

He could sense the Balance tipping towards darkness, he could feel the Force shuddering with uncertainty and despair.

Taken from Star Wars: Fate of the Jedi: Vortex

Since living beings are the primary source of creation and sustenance of the Force on the whole, it isn't a big deal that they are able to influence the balance between Light side and Dark side of the Living Force through their actions.

Cosmic Force transcends normal conceptions of time and space on the other hand, and appears to have its own will:

Taken from Star Wars: Force and Destiny

--

And yet the galaxy has a fundamental mysticism that science cannot unravel. This power has always defied the attempts to skeptics to explain it away, and its influence is undeniable. Species and cultures have known this strange energy by a multitude of names, but the Jedi and Sith know it as the Force.

Taken from Star Wars: Force and Destiny

- but the Force does not oppose actions of a living being in direct manner:

The shift had been the outcome of months of intense meditation, during which Plagueis and Sidious had sought to challenge the Force for sovereignty and suffuse the galaxy with the power of the dark side. Brazen and shameless, and at their own mortal peril, they had waged etheric war, anticipating that their own midi-chlorians, the Force’s proxy army, might marshal to boil their blood or stop the beating of their hearts. Risen out of themselves, discorporate and as a single entity, they had brought the power of their will to bear, asserting their sovereignty over the Force. No counterforce had risen against them.

Taken from Star Wars: Darth Plagueis

The underlined part suggest absolute lack of counter from the Force during the course of that ritual. Similarly, the Force didn't kill Valkorion for creating a void around Medriaas and prolonging its existence for indefinite period, and the Force didn't kill Naga Sadow for causing a supernova. The Force responds to actions of a living being in passive ways, according to its own remote designs.

Sith might assume that they have out-willed the Force by nudging it closer to the Dark side but their assumption is misplaced. If Darth Plagueis and Palpatine had truly out-willed the Force with their ritual, they would have made it completely subservient to their cause, prevented birth of Anakin Skywalker and commanded it to stop the hearts of all Jedi across the Galaxy, but this wasn't the case. Their ability to influence the Force is/was far from being all-encompassing.

--- --- ---

As for the level of power Darth Plagueis operates on: he couldn't one-shot featless Darth Venamis in a fight, and he barely succeeded in defeating a group of assassins in another fight. He also failed to cheat death after Palpatine subjected him to his Force powers.

Not impressed.

Plot-devices are NOT a good way to evaluate personal strength of a character, period.

I will debunk moronic/illogical assessments of the reigning Sheevite at every turn here. Whether he reads or not, others will take notes sooner or later.

B/W:-

"I don't know for sure but I would imagine that there are no hard and fast lists about which Sith are the most powerful. "Most Powerful" would have lots of different variables to take into account. So it may be best to say that he was simply amongst the most powerful Sith along with Sidious and whoever else there may be. If you definitively say that one Sith was the most powerful then by definition any others that you create in the EU must be inferior so I doubt the continuity people make such absolutes about the powerfulness of the characters." - Leland Chee

"I don't know for sure but I would imagine that there are no hard and fast lists about which Sith are the most powerful. "Most Powerful" would have lots of different variables to take into account. So it may be best to say that he was simply amongst the most powerful Sith along with Sidious and whoever else there may be. If you definitively say that one Sith was the most powerful then by definition any others that you create in the EU must be inferior so I doubt the continuity people make such absolutes about the powerfulness of the characters." - Leland Chee

Even if we don't count Sidious' GOAT quotes, or that you don't think that he has better feats than Valkorion, you'd agree that his feats put him above the vast majority of characters in the mythos, no?

I will debunk moronic/illogical assessments of the reigning Sheevite at every turn here. Whether he reads or not, others will take notes sooner or later.

B/W:-

"I don't know for sure but I would imagine that there are no hard and fast lists about which Sith are the most powerful. "Most Powerful" would have lots of different variables to take into account. So it may be best to say that he was simply amongst the most powerful Sith along with Sidious and whoever else there may be. If you definitively say that one Sith was the most powerful then by definition any others that you create in the EU must be inferior so I doubt the continuity people make such absolutes about the powerfulness of the characters." - Leland Chee

You have been a member of KMC for 12 years, and a defender of Vitiate for over 6 years now. You have had all this time to convince everyone of how Sidious is trash and Vitiate is great, and the only thing you have done so far is make people mock and laugh at you. And they have laughed hard, believe me.

Do you genuinely believe people here will treat you any differently? Do you think you are going to revolutionize the mainstream hierarchies here, despite having over six years to do that on KMC to the result of Failkorion being ranked first beneath Luke Skywalker, then Palpatine, then Anakin Skywalker, Yoda, Darth Plagueis, and even Mace Windu by democratic vote a few months ago? You have literally achieved nothing on KMC and TOR characters are ranked lower than ever there, so do you genuinely believe you'll have an impact here? Not even trying to insult you, just curious.

"I don't know for sure but I would imagine that there are no hard and fast lists about which Sith are the most powerful. "Most Powerful" would have lots of different variables to take into account. So it may be best to say that he was simply amongst the most powerful Sith along with Sidious and whoever else there may be. If you definitively say that one Sith was the most powerful then by definition any others that you create in the EU must be inferior so I doubt the continuity people make such absolutes about the powerfulness of the characters." - Leland Chee

Even if we don't count Sidious' GOAT quotes, or that you don't think that he has better feats than Valkorion, you'd agree that his feats put him above the vast majority of characters in the mythos, no?

KMC is a troll fest at the moment (unfortunately), and those rankings do not hold any water (utterly subjective). Additionally, some members are active and others are not. I am not active on a 24/7 basis there either. Conversely, some people pay attention to provided arguments, others remain indifferent. Some of the quality posters there are known to rate Valkorion very high which matters in the end.

Some of my best experiences in debating are with KMC members Lightsnake (a Sheevite) and Nephthys (TORite) respectively; reason is that these two pay attention to the provided arguments, and ignore BS.

You consider yourself a debater but you do not do any justice to the character which you seem to champion so much! You are no Lightsnake or ShootingNova. You have introduced extreme levels of wanking in your arguments which are frowned upon by many (I can gather evidence if need be), yet you do not realize it. You are unable to debate merits of Darth Plagueis and Palpatine in a refined (and realistic) manner - you are lacking in ideas actually.

Those polls were rigged in large part (I vividly recall people deliberately down-voting Valkorion in them in 1 on 1 situations).

Palpatine's chances are slim in tackling a Force Wizard such as Valkorion under normal circumstances. The latter is swift in subjecting an opponent to a myraid of Force powers, leaving no room for the opponent to maneuver and recover. Palpatine is overconfident, and this would be his undoing. If Palpatine decides to goad Valkorion into striking him down, he is done for. If Palpatine draw his lightsaber, Valkorion will manage to capitalize and take him out in this situation as well.

Palpatine might stand a chance against Valkorion in a favorable setting (e.g. Byss) where the act of using a Force power is like an afterthought to him. I give you this.

Valkorion's defenses are not to be underestimated however; he remarked to the Outlander that even superweapons are not sufficient to stop him. Valkorion also have the potential to manifest after loosing his Voice, and take his opponent by surprise in this manner. Valkorion is able to perform raw telekinetic feats (collapse a structure/setting), spawn monsters (e.g. Monoliths), possess other beings and subject other beings to Force Drain powers while in formless state of existence - sufficient arsenal to overwhelm an opponent. Valkorion's spirit was able to consume Vaylin's essence when she was struck down, and Palpatine's spirit is vulnerable like a typical Sith spirit. So...there's that.

You consider yourself a debater but you do not do any justice to the character which you seem to champion so much! You are no Lightsnake or ShootingNova. You have introduced extreme levels of wanking in your arguments which are frowned upon by many (I can gather evidence if need be), yet you do not realize it. You are unable to debate merits of Darth Plagueis and Palpatine in a refined (and realistic) manner - you are lacking in ideas actually.

Don't expect anything from the troll who believes Dooku blitzes Maul and Kit Fisto can defeat Maul is no surprise.

@azronger: I legitimately don't know why it's taken me this long to get to your post lol. Anyway, better late than never.

Wait, so if the musings are hyperbole, then Sidious grew less than times more powerful over the decades, which means that the gap between 17-year-old Sheev and TPM Sidious is even smaller. You just argued against your own case, son.

Maybe I did, maybe I didn't. It depends on whether Plagueis' feat is all you're hyping it up to be.

Even so, to suggest that Sidious grew exactly tenfold over the decades off his word alone is patently absurd. I admit that "hyperbole" wasn't exactly the best word I could've used to convey my position, which is that the estimate is quite plainly inexact. There's absolutely nothing to back it up, and it's not like Sidious went and measured exactly his growth over 30+ years. As I stated previously, "tenfold" was simply a word Sidious used to highlight his wild growth over the decades rather than any real measure of his increase in power, and thus far you haven't offered any clear counter to that.

It isn't just a telepathy feat; Plagueis attempted to manipulate the midi-chlorians of every single living organism in the galaxy to bring about "the birth of a Forceful being." That is why the Force stopped him and killed all his lab animals, but it never intervened with his midi-chlorian manipulation again. So rather than being "the straw that broke the camel's back" or whatever, it was simply a feat that scared the Force itself shitless, so it decided to put a end to it. And indeed, if the Force was required to take such drastic action against him, that kind of in itself confirms Plagueis would have succeeded otherwise.

Let's not forget that Plagueis had two external dark side nexuses - one galaxy-wide, and one in his laboratory on Aborah, where he most likely attempted to perform the feat. Even if the Force stopped him because it feared his success, that doesn't discount the fact that he had major help - and we all know how you like to trash Vitiate for using nexuses.

After re-reading that section of the book, though, I came across a quote which pretty much vindicates my stance on the matter:

"The Force needs to be won over, especially in work that involves the dark side. It must be reassured that a Sith is capable of accepting authority. Otherwise it will thwart one’s intentions. It will engineer misfortune."

-- Darth Plagueis

Simply put, if the Force doesn't think you're capable of accepting authority, it will shut you down. It will thwart your intentions and it will engineer misfortune. Sounds familiar, doesn't it?

When it comes to the definition of "accepting authority", I think that one's rather clear: does your intent coincide with the will of the Force? If it does not, the Force will both thwart your intention (for example, flee from you) and engineer misfortune (for example, killing your lab animals). It's why Plagueis was able to extinguish a galaxy-wide light side nexus, and yet couldn't perform another action of the same galactic caliber in what presumably were the same conditions.

All we can draw from the above is that the Force didn't agree with what Plagueis was doing, so it shut him down. I don't know where you're getting it that the Force was even the slightest bit "scared" by what he was doing.

Hell, I'm not even sure that Plagueis could have achieved it when all it takes for the Force to flee from him was his intent simply not coinciding with its will, and not any terrifying prescience of success as we both thought.

Still ROTS. 17 year old Sidious is a better match for 10 year old Vitiate.

TPM Sidious still can't beat Valkorion and neither can Palgueis, who's only feat worth even mentioning in comparison to Valkorion is tipping the scale of the Force, which was done with prep, months of intense focus, the help of a nigh-equal in Sidious, a start accomplished by Tenebrous' master and a complete lack of resistance by the Force.

And any feats accomplished by Plagueis (and Sidious, for that matter) after that were only done via a galaxy wide darkside nexus far more potent than a normal one, so anyone complaining about Valks feats because "muh, Nexus" is a hypocrite.