Tokyo fuhrer Shintaro Ishihara’s manga ban is coming into effect, and the first 6 books to be officially condemned as “unhealthy literature” have been revealed, along with the reasons why they have been selected – which range from “incest” to “sex at a school.”

All the manga to be banned will have to be sold as 18+ or not at all, which as has already been seen constitutes a de facto ban as the only retail channels available to them as a result are the ones used for hardcore ero-manga, which the banned titles most certainly are not:

“Oku-sama wa Shougakusei” by Seiji Matsuyama:

A gag manga based on the premise that Japan’s birth rate falls so low that the government has to lower the legal age of marriage to Islamic levels. The 24-year-old protagonist finds himself married to a 12-year-old girl, and various suggestive though not explicit delusions ensue.

Siblings Aki and Sora fall in love and begin a physical relationship. The manga is sexually explicit but also deals with the emotional turmoil the relationship causes in the pair.

The author has already reported that his publisher has cancelled a reprint and there is little hope of the manga becoming available again.

Reason for ban: “Incest”

“Kareshi Sharing” by Yashi Natsuba

A pair of female twins fall out after one steals the boyfriend of the other, who apologises by suggesting they “share” her boyfriend. Though the art is cute, the content is quite explicit, as might be expected of BL.

Reason for ban: “Rape, incest, gang rape”

“Koibito 8-gou” by Makoto Ojiro

A suspenseful and erotic tale in which a journalist works to expose a masked man who has been sexually assaulting women.

Reason for ban: “Rape”

“Midori no Kisetsu” by Maakou

A collection of eight short stories by a long-time bishoujo mangaka, three of which contain themes of incest.

Reason for ban: “Incest, sex at a school”

“Hanahiyori” by Q-tarou Hanamizawa

A compilation of seinen love comedy stories, erotic but hard to consider extreme.

I’m not afraid to say that, for 4 out of these 6 mangas, I understand Ishihara’s point of view. “Banning” is perhaps pushing the limit to far, but this kind of mangas needs to have strong warnings.

Though, I regret that the moral rules in Japan are nowadays stricter than they used to be two centuries ago. And this is linked to why I don’t understand the blame thrown on “Aki Sora” and “Midori no Kisetsu”.

(In contrast, I don’t understand how is this possible that “TLR Darkness” and “Kagaku na Yatsura” are not already “censored” because of being TOO gratuitous.) These are my independent own thoughts!

Okay first of all, If he’s gonna ban rape on a EROTIC MANGA MEANT FOR THE FUCKING ADULT AUDIENCE THEN WE SHOULD BURN THIS FUCK WITH FUCKING FIRE.

i’ve seen some Rape in shounen/seinen manga not intended for the mature audience, take for example that Karate minoru something manga, at Chapter 34, Some macho homosexual shows up and goes around raping guys, not just ONE victim, but around 4-6, and THEY SHOW THE GUYS LAYING ON THE GROUND HALF-DEAD WITH THEIR ANUSES AND DICKS BLEEDING. WHY THE FUCK DIDN’T ISHITARD BAN THAT ONE? INSTEAD HE BANS SHIT THAT IS ALREADY CLASSIFIED AS MATURE? YOU FUCKING KIDDING?

While they are going too far, I understand Ishihara’s rationale. Shoujo Manga in particular has turned out to be a particularly adverse influence amongst teens (who are not very bright) aged 10-16. Details of the terrible ban aside, is it not reasonable for there to be a clearer demarcation between adult content and kid’s stuff

” Furher Ishihara ” is a fitting title cause he’s definitely a sick sick dictator for causing the ban of aki sora. I would not be susprised that all of the creators retire from the industry in protest.

“the content is quite explicit, as might be expected of BL”? Is BL more explicit than normal ecchi? I don’t really read BL or ecchi manga but I find this hard to believe. When it comes to stuff like this, it’s male readers who are more interested in sex and nudity, whereas female readers are more interested in gushy romance (making broad assumptions here, I know).

Say what you will with Aki Sora, it was fairly tame with almost nothing shown “on panel” (except maybe the orgy which may as well have shown it all, including the defloration), but some of these other ones are like whoaaa.

Book-banning sets a bad precedent wherever it’s practiced, but I’m having a hard time feeling bad that most of this shit has to go. Believe it or not, there was a time not too long ago where anime and manga had stories, characters, and plotlines instead of “SUPPLEMENTAL TITTIES EVERYWHERE LOL XD”. It would sure be a shame if mangaka had to be reduced to putting some thought into their work again.

Honestly, I am a big fan of Angel Sanctuary and that has incest… It’s got a really good story to me… it scares me sometimes that something someone can consider so sick can also be so beautiful! Ok… maybe it scares me what SOCIETY considers so sick can be so beautiful.

Regarding comparisons to Nabokov’s novel, Lolita. That may not be the happiest comparison. Lolita was refused publication by mainstream publishers and had to be published by a third-rate publisher in France that basically published cheap smut. Also, despite receiving critical acclaim, it was quickly banned in England and France. Several years later, it was published in the United States. Today, of course, it is widely studied and is considered one of the top novels in history. (Source: Wikipedia)

For those who don’t know the reasons for banning these manga are inappropriate reasons.

Oku-sama wa Shougakuse I’ve read and it doesn’t have child rape.

Midori no Kisetsu I haven’t picked up but judging from the wild reaction its probably due to misinterpreting that it has school sex in it. And even if it does, it would be implied like 90% of the other romance mangas out there. -_-;

Hanahiyori I’ve also read it. It’s funny and the thing is it’s not really sex at school. You don’t see anything and its no worse than To-Love-Ru.

Don’t these ban-happy politicians know that by banning a book or other piece of art from being sold they cause it to be propagated across the internet? For proof as to why censorship is self-defeating, just look at the case of the 2006 Mohammed cartoons. The original paper had them removed, but now the images are all over the internet. Or, for a more relevant case, just look at Rapelay. It was banned from being sold in stores, but now downloading it has become incredibly easy. Pretty soon, we’re going to see download sites advertising these titles with slogans like “The manga books the government doesn’t want you to read.” The chances that this law will end up biting the government in the ass are pretty much inevitable now.

You know what’s great about manga? That IT IS NOT REAL. It’s just like games… THEY ARE NOT REAL. That’s what’s really fun, because common people can distinguish between fantasy and reality… apparently this old asshole can’t.

While he’s banning all these manga, he’s probably banging one of those little children right now, I wouldn’t be surprised one bit. >.> I hope they don’t ban Kodomo no Jikan… As a female, I actually like that manga.

this should just change the name of deadman wonderland to ishihara’s wonderland just to fuck with him it would be hilarious caz when i first seen that show i was like whoa this is what ishihara’s perfect vision of japan is

Remember postal 2? probably not, it was a horrible game which hardly anyone bought at first. then there was a huge debate on TV about the violence and racism in the game… the next day the sales started to skyrocket.

So when will he finally ban condoms as they get in the way of the ‘sexual intercourse’? Will it be after or before he bans everything related to the said act? Japan is going towards a strange future with… fucking rainbows coming out of a monkey’s ass while having sex without any condoms on a monocycle while listening to lady gaga and eating raw wasabi… or something like that.

Not really, but this is the abridged version of the average human thought process, regarding ‘prohibited’ content. It doesn’t matter how heavy handed any manga/anime bans get, people will find a way around it.

Someone should create a page to directly donate mangaka with paypal and just download it illegaly, then pay directly to author. If it is now officially banned, they should make it public for free, and ask for a donation.

It is generally a good idea to just make mangas freely available and ask for donations. Don’t have any data at the moment, but for most authors this method would be more profitable than traditional publishing in my opinion.

Why? well yesterday I watched a show that I thought might be amusing, and in less than 10 seconds it’s like holy crap (turns down volume level), and through out the show ‘does Ishy even know about this show?’.

I later realized it was an OAV and thus not aired in the usual fashion. No idea how it is marketed. The show in question is Koe de Oshigoto.

I thought the show was funny, but the thing is, it was moronically easy to obtain off the internet.
Lesson learned, you can just fucking forget preventing kids from watching it Ishy baby.

Manga with maybe pooooosibly questionable content or concepts, just get over it you of the under adult age category, you will need to buy your fix online and not at the local store.

All Ishy has done, is maybe hurt retail a bit more.

So what if it is pushed into the 18+ category, do you think anyone really needs to care? Suck it up authors, sell online or shut up.

No they wouldn’t hell i’m pretty sure even that “how to fuck kids” book didn’t get banned here. We have a VERY odd concept of such things in the US. Hell even the chris handley stuff was all loopholes and technicalities since the supreme court OUTRIGHT stated that loli is legal.

I doubt it. I lost all hope in the Japanese, in so may ways and for so many reasons. I guess I’ll either have to adapt to what survives of the industry, or merely conform myself with old works that have already ended. Sad, oh so sad.

There will eventually be a protest about this at some point, and the Tokyo government will have to deal with it. One of the best ways to help is there be an international petition to abolish this close minded ban.

Who the hell are you to say their not proper, that’s why certain genres and themes exist, the fact that you don’t like them doesn’t change a thing.

Fetish hungry? If that’s what you like to call the plots of the manga stated above then my boy you shouldn’t even be reading anything of Japanese.Just proves that every time you see an ecchi title all you do is FAP and ignore the word bubbles.

Hear hear, these mangas need to be banned along with filthy pornography like Mass Effect. I never played the game or read any of these books, but I hear they’re dirty! They’re corrupting our youth and preventing them from having our integrity.

Did you all forget they setup the Anime Contents Expo to protest Ishi’s Tokyo Anime Festival? The potential number of no shows got TAF canceled. But after the Earthquake hit, everything was put into a mode of “self-restraint”, and it was ACE canceled as well.

No you’ll just be disappointed cause I see it Jap’s Otaku(or other fans for that matter) are to afraid to come out of their own rooms to do anything. I guess for Jap fans anime and manga just isn’t something worth getting all exited about. Hope they do repeal this law, the poor mangaka

When in doubt stick to the second cousin rule. also I hate it when there is that 1 couple left on earth repopulate bullshit it’s not sound because of incest. However 2 couples having 4 kids could work but if Male A has only girls and Male B has 3 girls 1 boy things get criss crossy and weird like Male B having sex with Female A etc. etc.

That isn’t true – incest can lead to highly debilitating genetic diseases in the offspring.
(I’m just as much against the ban as everyone else, but brandishing falsehoods to support the cause isn’t going to help anyone.)

I hereby declare that all women older than 35 should not be allowed to marry, have sex or have kids – for if they have kids, it is much likelier that they might have down syndrome. Further, they will not have the ‘energy’ to raise their kids correctly.

If it is not unlawful for them to do so in your area, if they attempt to have kids then we should all spit on the old ugly hags, kick them out of our social clubs and hate them in general nevertheless.

Well, they do eventually give up after coming to terms with the fact that I will not change for them. I know inherently that they only mean well, I know that they they aren’t consciously trying to use me for purely selfish reasons, but still, it is nevertheless troublesome when they always try and enter my life and change me with their expectations, their endless expectations, then quickly leave when they realise that I won’t.

I am nought but a boy, but I have been harassed all my life with these endless expectations. Am I not allowed to waste my life playing mmo in peace?

Do so at your own peril sir, for you will be murdering the man that will one day save the world! However, in the end, really, I am quite willing to die for all of you guyses sins. Death will allow me to finally escape the endless harassment, the endless expectations forced upon me by all the women that want to have babies with me.

If only you would be willing to kill me in a less painful way of course (might I recommend nailing to a cross – it would be a death fitting a man of my calibre).

I hereby declare that all people that do not meet requirement X should not be allowed to marry, have sex or have kids – for if they have kids, it is much likelier that they will be Y which in turn will slow down the ‘progress’ of the human race.

If it is not unlawful for them to do so in your area, if they attempt to have kids then we should all spit on the inferior humans, kick them out of our privileged social clubs and hate them in general nevertheless.

I hereby declare that all alcoholics should not be allowed to marry, have sex or have kids – for if they have kids, it is much likelier that they will be brought up in such a way that would harm their ‘growth’ which in turn will harm the very fabric of society. Further, they will not have the ‘energy’ to raise their kids correctly.

If it is not unlawful for them to do so in your area, if they attempt to have kids then we should all spit on the worthless bastards, kick them out of our social clubs and hate them in general nevertheless.

I hereby declare that all parents that weigh more than 100 kg should not be allowed to marry, have sex or have kids – for if they have kids, it is much likelier that they will be obese and prone to depression which will harm the very fabric of society. Further, they will not have the ‘energy’ to raise their kids correctly.

If it is not unlawful for them to do so in your area, if they attempt to have kids then we should all spit on the fat bastards, kick them out of our social clubs and hate them in general nevertheless.

Wouldn’t matter even if you were talking incest in real life. I know MANY people who have or had incestuous relationships with their parents, siblings or other ‘close’ family members, and it didn’t harm them.

Hell, some of them even have children from those relationships, and those children are 110% normal.

Incest that results in offspring is a form of close inbreeding (reproduction between two individuals with a common ancestor). Inbreeding leads to a higher probability of congenital birth defects because it increases that proportion of zygotes that are homozygous, in particular for deleterious recessive alleles that produce such disorders.[51] Because most such alleles are rare in populations, it is unlikely that two unrelated marriage partners will both be heterozygous carriers. However, because close relatives share a large fraction of their alleles (e.g., 50% for siblings or parent/offspring combinations, 25% for first cousins), the probability that any such rare deleterious allele present in the common ancestor will be inherited from both related parents is increased dramatically with respect to non-inbred couples. Contrary to common belief, inbreeding does not in itself alter allele frequencies, but rather increases the relative proportion of homozygotes to heterozygotes. However, because the increased proportion of deleterious homozygotes exposes the allele to natural selection, in the long run its frequency decreases more rapidly in inbred population. In the short term, incestuous reproduction is expected to produce increases in spontaneous abortions of zygotes, perinatal deaths, and postnatal offspring with birth defects.[52] HM Slatis [53] showed a significant delay in time to first pregnancy in first-cousin marriages as compared with unrelated individuals in the same population. A 1994 study found a mean excess mortality with inbreeding among first cousins of 4.4%.[54] A study of 29 offspring resulting from brother-sister or father-daughter incest found that 20 had congenital abnormalities, including four directly attributable to autosomal recessive alleles.[55]

“1. Do not kill someone unless they are trying to kill you.”
Doesnt explain hundreds thousands of murders every year.

“2. Do not physically injure someone unless they are trying to physically injure you or you both consent to that attempt, such as in a sports arena.”
I don’t know where you are living, but some people are sadists and love to injure others for a few cheap laughs.

“3. Do not steal from someone unless it is your last choice between you and death.”
If I go by the moral basics that guys like you have, people browsing this website read manga online and download movies, thus are stealing. Thus: why the hell are you here?

“4. Do not force someone to do or not do something that they do not or do wish to do, regardless of age, unless they are breaking one of the first two rules, causing an imminent and immediate danger of physical injury to someone else without that person’s permission or damaging property not their own.”
There is an instition that has this as their job description. It’s called the police, and many a police (wo)man is a corrupt bastard breaking the rules themselves.

“Outside of those 4 true morals? Stuff everything else.”
Nonsensial blabber to show you can make “intelligent” conclusions.

Interesting 4 true morals. I disagree with the fact those are the only ones that should be considered as ‘true’ though.

From what you’ve listed, causing extremely severe psychological injuries through traumas/mindfucks (and no physical damage whatsoever) on another human isn’t ‘truly immoral’ then? Those can end up being far worse than not-extreme physical injuries, nay?
We aren’t at a stage where we can assume animals cannot manage such psychological damage to another of it’s kind/others. Who knows how fucking scared a mice might be if he saw a shitload of cats running for him and barely manage to run away? I’d figure its instinct of survival would start dictating it to go out less and less if such events would continue to happen.

I wonder what else could be pointed out that’s missing.

And incest is fine as long as contraception is used. It’s not fine if you get a physically/mentally affected child with a sibling as a result of thinking it’s perfectly safe though. Of course, normal couples can have those too, but wasn’t there something like a higher chance for incest couples having such a child? Or is that simply scientific reports edited for anti-incest propaganda use?

How does incest relate to being animals? Of course it doesn’t since that is just one of the bullshit remarks people like you use to give make something a negative that isn’t. I hate people like you since you just try to hurt people to make yourself feel good. You probably are against things like incest (that doesn’t hurt anybody) but support murder (which does) through war.

You may be trolling but for completeness’ sake:
“Morale keep us from being animals.”

1) You mean “morality” not “morale”.
2) We are all animals, that’s a scientific fact.
3) Animals are not bad and in fact many do all sorts of things we classify as “moral” in humans, like not hurting each other, killing babies, etc. This varies between species and between specimens. A lot even practice altruistic self-sacrifice and avoid inbreeding.
4) Animal behaviors are not bad by default. Is sleeping bad? Is eating bad? You need to criticize specific behaviors.

I also forgot to mention that the (so called) scientific evidence against conception through incest is total bullshit. I’m not saying it isn’t true but the problem is it applies to all births and not just births through incest. I would go into this (so called) evidence but most people here wouldn’t understand it.

1. Do not kill someone unless they are trying to kill you.
2. Do not physically injure someone unless they are trying to physically injure you or you both consent to that attempt, such as in a sports arena.
3. Do not steal from someone unless it is your last choice between you and death.
4. Do not force someone to do or not do something that they do not or do wish to do, regardless of age, unless they are breaking one of the first two rules, causing an imminent and immediate danger of physical injury to someone else without that person’s permission or damaging property not their own.

that’s irrelevant. it’s free publicity that matters.
with enough of that, it’ll be way more easy to just slap an R-18 mark on them, rework the content in order to make it fully sexually explicit, and then sell them that way.

The double-edge sword of bureaucracy is that any changes often takes hella lot of time to implement. You don’t just write it down in paper and hope it’ll immediately be gazetted: It needs to get agreement from various other agencies at most top levels, person-in-charge of which, if he has any credibility, would read the fine print before he scribble his signature down. The act of even looking at the document for starters can take weeks and months since it arrives on their desks because they also have other shit to attend to(speaking from working experience).

So, Google all the titles you can remember and download them while they’re still plenty around, because you might not see it ever again.

No even they have to understand that KissxSis isn’t considered incest since they are step siblings just highly ecchi, goddamn it it was my first manga that I’ve ever read and got me to read other mangas and if it is banned I it would truly hurt me T-T

I don’t know. One of those bullets said the reason was for sex at school which even if it isn’t explicit it’s damned close. I just hope they keep banning more and more so eventually it pisses enough people off to get the bans repealed and Ishihara kicked out of office somehow.

If Ishihara were to ban anime and manga completely I’m gonna ill him.
If he managed to get that ban to work in America then I’m gonna…well I can’t describe it just know Ishihara will beg me to kill himwhen I’m done with him.
I’m dead fucking serious this fucking asshle better not succeeed

If they’re smart, people will just open something like “Tokyo Banned Bookshops,” and start selling all of the titles specifically affected by the ban. If a few copies end up in the hands of their former underage readers… “Woops.”

Immediately upon the release of the BAN – sells of all titles are stripped clean off the ranks and tables as sells EXPLODE!!!
eatSHITbara declares victory for you see, they be all off the shelves now!
..until reprints by savvy publishers happen to SAVAGE profit as those too fly off again.
ahem.. FUCK YOU WITH A THOUSAND PIGS eatSHITin’ obara!!!!!!!!

Japanese “ban” only the porn, while Americans “ban” anything that is going to be used as porn. Because let’s be honest. They may not have a +18 tags on them but boys are going to end up fapping at them, and that’s healthy.

The hypocrisy here is that the stores have no trouble selling smut that people masturbate to EXCEPT if it is made clear what it is for.

I guess it kinda like how most people masturbate but never talk about it. But it really shows that people need to open up a little. The books aren’t changing, just the classification is.

Of course part of the problem is needing an ID to buy this stuff. Alas, when are we going to realize that adolescents have strong (and in fact the strongest) sexual needs and need some form of release?

That is only because America is much more conservative with sexual themes than Japan. In Japan, as long as you don’t have actual smex in the thing, they are usually allowed to be sold as under-18 mangas.

Gantz Is gonna be finishing soon and has recently been selling more than 10 million each issue. If he did ban it, I’d love to see the protests of people lining outside his government building in gantz cosplay…

Violence? They brainwash kids with power rangers and ultraman from the get go. At least they are not like USA where if you show one tit all hell breaks loose, but showing someone getting neck broken, stabbed, blown up or shot up is totally fine.

I was thinking the same thing. >.> <.< (Yep…. girls read Gantz too. XD) Plus Gantz has massive sexual stuff too… o-o; If you haven't read it and want to or missed a lot ignore the next part: Kurono doing that girl in the hallway? Kishimoto almost getting raped to begin with? Butterdog? I think that sex crazed guy doing aliens and the getting a large bug excited is very…. disturbing to many people—! I love to read Gantz. What rule will they break next in society’s rule book? :3

Funny bit is i have NO problems with some of the sickest shit in manga but my own head is so good at creating images books affect me more. So yeah at least in case he’s doing the reverse of what should be done. Curse i’d NEVER scream censor and i even enjoy that sick shit in text as well.

I agree that sex with minors as is in okusama wa shougakusei and incest should be banned altogether. However guys, the manga on this list isn’t BANNED as you say it is, it’s still available to buy. So why are you complaining?
School sex is ok because schoolchildren do have sex, however it should only be from middle school onwards. none of this shougakusei stuff

Except that they KNOW it means publishers will stop producing the manga because their sales will not be enough to cover it. That little R18 logo is enough to kill the sales so they essentially did a backdoor ban of Manga they don’t like.

“A compilation of seinen love comedy stories, erotic but hard to consider extreme.”
so incest, rape, child rape isn’t extreme Mr.sankaku writer? you must be pretty fucked up or is child rape not extreme in japan i hear Japanese are pretty fucked up perverts that also make unsafe cars and gaming networks.

Sure, there’s that, and back in the days when people would buy porn in magazines, do you think everyone wanted to get them at a news stand, convenience store, or porn shop? By cutting out the ones who don’t think “alright – time to go porn shopping!” they’re dramatically slashing the sales.

Not impossible, but it would require a lot of things to work. Beyond the stores expressing enough of an interest to make such a stand, there would need to be a publisher looking to pick up these deserted non-h adult manga. Would be pretty cool, but not easy.

@anon 06:37
The problem is stores won’t, especially ones that refused to hold R18 titles to start with. Keep in mind we have to think about the Japanese shame mentality here as well, how many publishers who have never published something considered pornographic, suddenly, and without changing anything, suddenly is now publishing a dozen R18 titles due to a new law re-categorizing them. They would drop the R18 titles to stop the sales of other manga from going down due to the boycott they would receive for having adult material under their label.

4:39 are yopu a fucking retard, “if they are adult only, they ain’t worth reading ?” what kind of dumb little shit are you ? a mature theme for adults is not worth reading ? go back to your church and take your morals and shove it up your ass.

Maybe living in the country with the strictest youth protection laws in the whole Western world has clouded my common sense, but I don’t really see this as an industry-destroying problem if all stores have to do is create separate rooms, ID checks, and whatever else is needed to keep selling their ‘unhealthy’ fiction.
Yes, it’s bullshit that sex and violence are being used as a scapegoat for one man’s personal vendetta, and I can also see all the negative impact this restriction will have on Japanese culture and economy, but it could be worse. Think actual confiscation of artwork and literature containing unhealthy ideas, and prohibition of creating any fiction that glorifies a punishable act of crime.

I highly doubt that was just a ‘database error’ you retard considering what they’ve been slowly doing for quite a while now – if I am wrong, then who cares, I have the right to be ignorant you ignorant faggot.

Also you are implying that there is only one form of democracy. Also, it is not the will of the majority that makes the rules; your a faggot if you believe that shit.

Finally, don’t read it then you faggot, but don’t be so retardedly arrogant as to spout of your retarded ‘not worth reading’ shit then you worthless faggot.

Since you hate it when ‘ignorant bastards spout shit’ I assume you know that the Amazon ‘ban’ of Yaoi was really just a database error and not an actual…oh, wait.

It’s called democracy, and yeah, it sucks some times. But it is the will of the majority that makes the rules. And they’re not banned, they’re just now marked as adults only. If they can’t sell them being marked adults only, then they probably aren’t worth reading in the first place.

Wait, so ‘ban’ isn’t actually a ban? Just a limitation they must be sold to 18+? Hell, that doesn’t sound nearly as bad. It reminds me of when I was in highschool and a friend bought a copy of Urotosukidoji and had to get parental consent because it was restricted. His parents gave the okay and we were all introduced to the world of naught tentacles.

Stop applying your American mentality to the Japanese publishing industry. Those series will CEASE TO BE MADE. The authors of those manga need something to eat too. They won’t continue to work on something that doesn’t get them enough money to live. The end result is the same as a ban. Worse even: if it’s just banned you can still get it illegally. But you can’t get a manga that hasn’t even been made in the first place.