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Let darkness devil fruit aside I think Blackbeards physical abilities are far more than mihawk,shanks maybe even lucci (guess that we dont even know if shanks 2armed or 1armed while BB scarred him, If he beat shanks while he is 2arm'd that makes him 2x dangerous) he has an insane strength and endurance against many attacks (impaled from heart and still kickin) If darkness fruit limits his endurance (taking much more pain than a normal human) then he must be something god-like without the devil fruit..

Why would someone accepts the nullfying powers even if he is aware that he wont get a full logia-type defence? Also Blackbeard never used a direct harming darkness attack against Ace rather than pulling him to range which makes me think like BB seeing darkness as a shield only against devil fruits and using brute force for main attacks.He is probably the only people alive that can defeat both Logia and non-df characters without plans or finding weak spots...

Shankss, Blackbeard did scar Shanks when he had both of his arms. This was revealed in Luffy's childhood flashback because Shanks had already had those scars on his eye. So, just like you've said, the fact that Blackbeard has eaten the darkness fruit on top of being incredibly strong already will make him nearly god-like.

What I am really interested in finding out is the reason why Shanks and Blackbeard got into a fight in the first place. I have a feeling that Shanks might have some kind of history with the D's in the past. I am hoping that eventually Oda does show us a flashback about Shanks and Blackbeard that could help unravel this mystery between these two characters. What do you guys think about this matter?

This was revealed in Luffy's childhood flashback because Shanks had already had those scars on his

ah yea forgot that little detail
anyway can BB trying to reach full invulnerability before hunting One Piece or whatever his plan is? he is physically strong, can nullify devil fruits and now can avoid World Goverments bounty hunting because he is a shichibukai.He can now destroy everything on his path to Raftel and if anyone wants to stop him, they must prepare theirselves for WG's reply too

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What I am really interested in finding out is the reason why Shanks and Blackbeard got into a fight in the first place. I have a feeling that Shanks might have some kind of history with the D's in the past. I am hoping that eventually Oda does show us a flashback about Shanks and Blackbeard that could help unravel this mystery between these two characters.

all D's might be related to civilization destroyed in lost history.A Blackbeard vs Shanks flashback can be really great so we can see what kind of weird weapon Blackbeard used on shanks to scar like that Guess all will be explained with Dragon and his revolutioneries...

For some reason, I see some serious foreshadowing happening between Blackbeard and Shanks. Shanks has played the role of a harbinger in his confrontation with Whitebeard. He has already told Whitebeard that Blackbeard is rising in power and that it is only a matter of time until he attempts to dethrone Whitebeard. He also pleaded Whitebeard to call Ace back because he fears the consequences that will occur as a result of Whitebeard's actions. Now that Blackbeard has become a shichibukai, all three of the world powers are going to be adversely affected as hinted by Kuma. When this happens, I think Shanks is going to have to take matters into his own hands since Whitebeard, being the obstinate individual he is, would not listen to him. Subsequently, I think Shanks is going to try to look for Blackbeard himself and deal with him. He does have a personal vendetta with Blackbeard and probably wants to get revenge for the most painful injury he has received to date, his three scars.

On a side note, this is wishful thinking on my part, but if Shanks does confront Blackbeard again I hope Blackbeard pounds him into the ground. I am a huge Blackbeard fan and I really want a lot of his ambitions to become a reality in the story of One Piece. No offense to the Shanks fans out there.

Blackbeard's power seems truly great. Physical prowess to withstand even the harshest of close and mid-range blows (not to mention a thick but flexible (i.e. fat ) hide that lets him more easily absorb blows) and of course a Devil's Fruit power that gives him minor control over gravity and major control over the blocking of other's Devil Fruit Powers (a truly destructive force against Logia users). But, with everything we have seen so far, the possibilities of the current Luffy defeating him are not that bleak.

Luffy's greatest physical power (power defined here is the raw strength that Luffy has - the damage his blows give his foes) is not the flurry of blows he can deliver, nor is it his amazing ability to absorb blows (though both are huge factors to his strength); his greatest power is his momentum. (His greatest power is really his imagination and ability to come up with new and unique attacks with his limited rubber abilities, but that is an overall power; the greatest single aspect of his strength is momentum.) Momentum is product of the mass and velocity of an object and as momentum increases so too does the force of...wait, I do not need to give a physics lecture here. Suffice to say, Luffy has a built in strength modifier for all of his attacks for the simple reason that all of his attacks can stretch away from his body and then snap back to their starting positions. The extra momentum that is added to his attacks makes him a deadly foe to Blackbeard who has a power to only block attacks when he is actively holding his oponents. A large attack (like any Gear 3 attack or his various Bazooka attacks) is intrinsically strong, but adding the momentum that Luffy's rubber abilities gives his attacks, you are looking at an attack that increase in power by every meter that his arm/leg/head is stretched from his body.

Now, it could be possible that if Blackbeard does get a hold of Luffy while his attack is being stretched , Luffy's power will be nullified. But, knowing how Oda likes planning out Luffy's strengths, it is also entirely possible that Luffy's arms, while they will stop stretching, will still spring back to their original position (to visualize: Luffy starts his Bazooka attack, but then Blackbeard grabs a hold of Luffy's head; while Luffy feels the power in his body drain, his arms, since they are stretched so far away from him, react differently, they instead snap back to their starting position and consequentially perform the duty that Luffy sent them out to perform: Hit Blackbeard). If that is the case, Luffy would be one of the few Devil Fruit Users that could actively continue to attack Blackbeard while still being held. This, of course, does not take into account the gavity/black hole acttacks that Blackbeard posses, but, as I mentioned earlier, I am only trying to make the fight less bleak for Luffy (i.e. raise Luffy's percentage of survival and possible victory).

(I should also mention that Luffy and Miss Valentine (Mr. 5's partner) are the only two active users of momentum for all of their attacks. I can not remember any other One Piece Character that actively used momentum to the same level as these two characters.)

A very well written post there james3wk. A lot of the things you mention about Luffy (momentum being his greatest strength) are certainly plausible explanations as to how he would be able to defeat Blackbeard. But I am almost certain that we have yet to see the full extent of Blackbeard's abilities. Blackbeard is a man who was strong enough to scar Shanks, one of the four emperors, without a devil fruit ability. I am very intrigued as to how exactly he managed to give Shanks three cuts over his eye. It is very probable that he used a weapon to inflict such a wound, but I think there is more to it than just that. Besides his devil fruit, I think he probably fights in a way that is not conventional. I don't think that he is simply your average typical brawler. When Blackbeard fought with Ace, Blackbeard was clearly holding back because he still wanted to keep Ace in a stable enough condition so that he could accept his proposition to join his crew. Because of this situation, Blackbeard fought very defensively. If you meticulously examine that fight carefully, you will notice that Blackbeard remained stationary throughout the whole fight until the very end when he challenged Ace's solar emperor move (correct me on this attack name if I am wrong). Moreover, in every instance where Blackbeard's gravity vortex sucked in Ace, the fire logia's ability was nullified upon physical contact with Blackbeard. This had an adverse effect on Ace in which he became a regular strong human with no momentum properties that Luffy has whatsoever. In essence, close direct hits from Blackbeard were a good way of fending off Ace's assaults.

Now if Blackbeard is to fight Luffy (most likely an inevitable event), I think he would take a different approach as to how he would combat Luffy. It is evident that Blackbeard is no ignorant fool when it comes to being knowledgeable on different devil fruit abilities. After all, he even researched the exact devil fruit he wanted by studying the book and consequently knew all of the advantages and drawbacks of many other fruits. Having said this, Blackbeard would probably know how Luffy's devil fruit works and how its "momentum" could prove to be a lethal weapon to him. Upon using his gravity vortex, I don't think he would want to stand there and take that risk of receiving a very damaging blow from Luffy in exchange for hitting Luffy as well. On the contrary, I think he would take a more offensive approach against paramecia users in general. My reasoning for this strategy is because it is feasible for Blackbeard to actually hit paramecia users by normal means without having to grab hold of them. Also, we have yet to see Blackbeard use his darkness powers in more creative and innovative ways. For all we know, it is possible that Blackbeard could use his gravity powers to propel himself so rapidly towards his opponents and use that "momentum" against them. This is all speculation on my part. I am not trying to refute anything you are saying. I just think that Blackbeard would fight differently against paramecia, logia, and zoan fruit users.

Also james3wk, Bellamy can be considered a "momentum" user as well with his spring spring fruit abilities. He used his spring sniper and spring hopper moves on Luffy off of houses, floors, etc. It was the recoil from these different contact surfaces that gave him that momentum.

A very well written post there james3wk. A lot of the things you mention about Luffy (momentum being his greatest strength) are certainly plausible explanations as to how he would be able to defeat Blackbeard. ...

Thanks for the reply. I actually agree with you and all of your points. I wanted to offer up a possibility for Luffy surviving an encounter against Blackbeard for the simple reason that everyone seems to view the fight as a foregone conclusion just from Blackbeard's seemingly simple battle against Ace. As much as you are a fan of Blackbeard, I am just as much a fan of Luffy . So, I wanted to even the odds, even if it was just by a small margin. Though, I do like the idea that Luffy would be one of the few with the ability to fight Blackbeard becuase of the properties of his Devil Fruit ability (much the same as Luffy's body being made of rubber added to his defeat of Enel, Luffy would have a similiar boast in a fight with Blackbeard helping to even the odds of the fight). But, as you said, he has probably developed different attacks for different abilities. Whatever the case, the fight will be fun, even if we probably will not see it for a 100+ chapters .

Also, I completly forgot about Bellamy. Your right, he is another fighter that uses momentum to increase the force of his attacks. I guess I forgot him because he was knocked out in one punch .

/agree with James3wk but Luffy could beat Blackbeard only with help from sb else example Monkey D Dragon,Whitebeard...or if he uses anothe gear :S but his fight with Blackbeard will be awesome in my opinion...

/agree with James3wk but Luffy could beat Blackbeard only with help from sb else example Monkey D Dragon,Whitebeard...or if he uses anothe gear :S but his fight with Blackbeard will be awesome in my opinion...

If you are talking about Luffy right now in the story, then yes I do agree with you that he would need assistance from someone else to beat him. Currently, Luffy is no where near Blackbeard's level. I personally would not want to see another gear being used to contend with Blackbeard because I feel that Luffy has done everything he could do with his gears. I don't want the gear power ups to be analogous to the super saiyan forms from Dragon Ball Z. Luffy's gears can only take him so far in strength and it is clear that he is going to have to improvise new techniques to make him on par with the more powerful future opponents to come. Chopper even stated that Luffy can not keep using his gears in future battles because of the detrimental effects that they cause on his body. The gear power ups will not suffice as the story progresses because the opponents are only going to keep getting stronger.

I have a theory about Blackbeard concerning his placement in the world powers of One Piece. At the moment, Blackbeard's placement in the shichibukai is quite awkward. He is the only warlord that doesn't have an animal theme, although this may be tentative for now. Because of this eccentricity, he seems like he just doesn't fit in with the rest of the warlords because his theme conflicts with that of his faction. This conflict leads me to believe that he is not going to be a warlord for the whole remainder of the story. Blackbeard's theme of color coincides with that of the four emperors.

In the "general discussion on the new world and four emperors (manga)" thread, I talked about the themes of the world powers so far. Considering the colors that Shanks and Whitebeard represent so far (Red and White), it seems likely that this pattern of colors is based on the four symbols in a chinese legend. I did some research on wikipedia and these four symbols are known as: Azure Dragon of the East, Vermillion Bird of the South, White Tiger of the West, and Black Tortoise of the North. The Azure Dragon represents the color blue, the Vermillion Bird represents the color red, the White Tiger represents the color white, and the Black Tortoise represents the color black. If the four emperors are indeed based off of these four symbols, then that means that either Kaidou or the other unknown emperor is the Black something. This could mean that the Black something is "fated" to be dethroned by Blackbeard. Also, if Blackbeard is to become an emperor, he would probably have a better chance of becoming pirate king and finding One Piece because his notoriety as an emperor would deter a lot of other pirates from competing with him. Besides, I find that having the title of emperor is more grand and fitting for a "D" character with high aspirations, such as Blackbeard, as opposed to having the title of warlord.

In conclusion, staying as a warlord permanently won't be Blackbeard's plan I feel. He is only using the World Government to exalt himself and diminish any opposition in his way. Once the "great incident" occurs, the world powers will be adversely affected, as foreshadowed by Kuma's premonition on Blackbeard's recruitment into the shichibukai, and his ulterior motives will be discovered by the World Government. Subsequently, the damage to the world powers will already be done and he will be able to make his ascension into a higher rank of power.

I was wondering, is it possible Cpt. Hina's Ori Ori Fruit or Foxy's Nora Nora Fruit would be able to affect Blackbeard (i.e. non-elemental projectile attacks like the Nora Nora Beam or Hina's ability to create manacles anywhere on her body)?

I was wondering, is it possible Cpt. Hina's Ori Ori Fruit or Foxy's Nora Nora Fruit would be able to affect Blackbeard (i.e. non-elemental projectile attacks like the Nora Nora Beam or Hina's ability to create manacles anywhere on her body)?

I don't see why they wouldn't be able to affect him. In spite of Blackbeard's darkness logia ability, he is still vulnerable to any kind of attack. So, yes those aforementioned abilities you listed would be able to affect Blackbeard. Unfortunately for Hina and Foxy, their attacks would be to no avail, for if they tried to do such a thing, Blackbeard would simply use his darkness to vanquish the effects of those techniques. Just like how Blackbeard used his darkness to extinguish Ace's flames, he would do the same thing to them. The power of nullification is one of the best attributes of the darkness fruit. It is probably for this reason why it is the strongest and most powerful devil fruit.

Actually, I would say that these are great support powers to have if a group were to fight Blackbeard. Foxy would provide great support especially, if he can slow Blackbeard down and let a strong character like Luffy or Chopper (not necessarily Luffy or Chopper, but someone of equal strength) to hit Blackbeard a few times, then back away, the kinetic damage multiplies once Blackbeard's time resumes normal speed. This would be devastating. And it need only work a few times, especially if the group works well as a team.

I don't think that Hina's powers would work, though. She requires direct prolonged contact, so I do not think her powers will work on Blackbeard.

Not to turn this into a "? v. Blackbeard", but how do we think Enel and Aokiji would stand up too Blackbeard. They seem to have the most powerful elemental powers introduced so far, even more powerful than Ace's fire element. Added to that, both their attacks and defense can be utilized in one blow. Aokiji need only touch the ground to effectively spread his ice to encompass Blackbeard and Enel can shove several 100 million volts of electricity down Blackbeard's throat, effectively messing up his reaction time. And even if Blackbeard was to launch his black hole technique, someone like Enel can, presumably dodge any attacks that Blackbeard may have (Blackbeard has always seemed to have faster hands than faster feet) with his Mantra technique.

Sorry if I keep coming up with versus posts, but I really want to test Blackbeard's powers.

Not to turn this into a "? v. Blackbeard", but how do we think Enel and Aokiji would stand up too Blackbeard. They seem to have the most powerful elemental powers introduced so far, even more powerful than Ace's fire element. Added to that, both their attacks and defense can be utilized in one blow. Aokiji need only touch the ground to effectively spread his ice to encompass Blackbeard and Enel can shove several 100 million volts of electricity down Blackbeard's throat, effectively messing up his reaction time. And even if Blackbeard was to launch his black hole technique, someone like Enel can, presumably dodge any attacks that Blackbeard may have (Blackbeard has always seemed to have faster hands than faster feet) with his Mantra technique.

Sorry if I keep coming up with versus posts, but I really want to test Blackbeard's powers.

Enel's and Aokiji's logia powers being more powerful than Ace's logia is up for contention really. There are a number of ways to argue each of the advantages these logia abilities have over each other, but I don't feel the need to get into the details. As for how Aokiji and Enel would fare against Blackbeard, I can see Aokiji doing well but Enel is not going to last very long against Blackbeard. Aokiji is very dangerous for the reason that he can disperse ice on any surface he touches, as you said. We also know that he does have good physical durability because he took a direct kick from an enraged Luffy that sent him up high into the air, but he didn't even get damaged. Enel on the other hand had a very difficult time with Luffy, without gear power ups mind you. It is evident that in spite of Enel's tremendous power from his devil fruit, he is one of those devil fruit users who relies too much on his abilities and doesn't train his body enough. Every hit that base luffy landed on Enel severely damaged him. Luffy was definitely far above his league in physical prowess. Imagine Luffy using gears on Enel; he could possibly take Enel out in one or two hits. Having said this, there is no way that Enel could stand a chance against Blackbeard. Once Blackbeard hits him, which he will because nothing can escape the darkness, it is game over for Enel. Enel would do worse than Ace because Ace at least trained his body quite well to take powerful hits, as acknowledged by Van Auger when he was watching the fight.

Enel's and Aokiji's logia powers being more powerful than Ace's logia is up for contention really. There are a number of ways to argue each of the advantages these logia abilities have over each other, but I don't feel the need to get into the details. As for how Aokiji and Enel would fare against Blackbeard, I can see Aokiji doing well but Enel is not going to last very long against Blackbeard. Aokiji is very dangerous for the reason that he can disperse ice on any surface he touches, as you said. We also know that he does have good physical durability because he took a direct kick from an enraged Luffy that sent him up high into the air, but he didn't even get damaged. Enel on the other hand had a very difficult time with Luffy, without gear power ups mind you. It is evident that in spite of Enel's tremendous power from his devil fruit, he is one of those devil fruit users who relies too much on his abilities and doesn't train his body enough. Every hit that base luffy landed on Enel severely damaged him. Luffy was definitely far above his league in physical prowess. Imagine Luffy using gears on Enel; he could possibly take Enel out in one or two hits. Having said this, there is no way that Enel could stand a chance against Blackbeard. Once Blackbeard hits him, which he will because nothing can escape the darkness, it is game over for Enel. Enel would do worse than Ace because Ace at least trained his body quite well to take powerful hits, as acknowledged by Van Auger when he was watching the fight.

While I am going to come right out and say Aokiji is probably more powerful than Blackbeard (just based on the powers we have seen both use), I believe that you are underestimating Enel greately. We do know that Lighning is considered one of the Legendary Elemental Fruits, so it is given a boost in rank that Ace's fruit has not been given.

You are forgetting Enel's teleportation (not actual teleportation, but still damn handy and fast), Mantra (some how is always able to see his opponents moves), and the fact that his electrical attacks were damaging to non-rubber humans. If Zoro can be laid out with 30 million volts, I am sure that Blackbeard will be given a pause with 200 million (which was the voltage of his final attack on Luffy). Added to that, if he were to fight Blackbeard in a storm (much the same as if Crocodile were to face someone in the desert) His powers would be multiplied exponentially. Mantra was partially in-effective against Luffy, becuase Luffy can attack a hundred time in a blink of an eye, and he can also lauch random attacks (as he did by bouncing his attacks off of a wall). Blackbeard has only two hands and two feet, and I doubt he uses his feet that often in a fight. It would be far easier for Enel to dodge Blackbeard, than for Enel to dodge Luffy. While both Blackbeard and Luffy can actively punch and hurt Enel, Blackbeard is still suseptible to Enel's eletrical attacks as well as Enel's Mantra abilities.

But, I will admit that Blackbeard would need only one punch to take Enel out.

I think, in the end, that The fight seems more even that either of us or probably willing to admit.

While I am going to come right out and say Aokiji is probably more powerful than Blackbeard (just based on the powers we have seen both use), I believe that you are underestimating Enel greately. We do know that Lighning is considered one of the Legendary Elemental Fruits, so it is given a boost in rank that Ace's fruit has not been given.

You are forgetting Enel's teleportation (not actual teleportation, but still damn handy and fast), Mantra (some how is always able to see his opponents moves), and the fact that his electrical attacks were damaging to non-rubber humans. If Zoro can be laid out with 30 million volts, I am sure that Blackbeard will be given a pause with 200 million (which was the voltage of his final attack on Luffy). Added to that, if he were to fight Blackbeard in a storm (much the same as if Crocodile were to face someone in the desert) His powers would be multiplied exponentially. Mantra was partially in-effective against Luffy, becuase Luffy can attack a hundred time in a blink of an eye, and he can also lauch random attacks (as he did by bouncing his attacks off of a wall). Blackbeard has only two hands and two feet, and I doubt he uses his feet that often in a fight. It would be far easier for Enel to dodge Blackbeard, than for Enel to dodge Luffy. While both Blackbeard and Luffy can actively punch and hurt Enel, Blackbeard is still suseptible to Enel's eletrical attacks as well as Enel's Mantra abilities.

But, I will admit that Blackbeard would need only one punch to take Enel out.

I think, in the end, that The fight seems more even that either of us or probably willing to admit.

I don't think I am really underestimating Enel, but rather I think that people greatly overestimate Enel. People treat him as if he is in the top tier in the One Piece universe just because of his lightning fruit, but the fact is that there are characters that could easily defeat him. To advocate this claim, Luffy mentioned that there were pirates on the blue seas that would be able to defeat Enel. When Luffy made this assertion, he only probably knew of two people personally that could lay Enel to waste. These two people were probably Shanks and Vice Admiral Garp. But since Luffy knew that his adventure towards becoming the pirate king would only keep on getting more arduous, he implied that there would be more powerful opponents he is unaware of than Enel in the near future.

What do you mean exactly that Enel's fruit is one the legendary ones, thus giving it a boost over Ace's fruit? The logia devil fruits in general are the rarest in the One Piece universe. If any devil fruit is to have a boost over all other devil fruits, it is Blackbeard's darkness fruit because it is considered the most evil and powerful.

Regarding Enel's incredible speed, he still cannot get away from Blackbeard no matter what. His mantra didn't help too much against Luffy, so I don't think it will be to any avail either against Blackbeard. As for Enel's lightning attacks, I will admit that they can greatly hurt Blackbeard. However, Blackbeard took Ace's fire lances right to the heart and he still shrugged it off. Hence, Enel's lightning is not going to be enough to finish off Blackbeard.

Regarding Enel's incredible speed, he still cannot get away from Blackbeard no matter what. His mantra didn't help too much against Luffy, so I don't think it will be to any avail either against Blackbeard. As for Enel's lightning attacks, I will admit that they can greatly hurt Blackbeard. However, Blackbeard took Ace's fire lances right to the heart and he still shrugged it off. Hence, Enel's lightning is not going to be enough to finish off Blackbeard.

Lightning effects the heart, but it mostly effects the brain, slowing down reaction times and causing you to ultimately slow down. Blackbeard is not fast on his feet, even if he has fast hands, he only has two and mantra gives you the ability to see through attack patterns. In many respects, Mantra is similiar to the pre-time skip Sharingan, in the respect that it can help track and decipher attack patterns. If Blackbeard can not hit Enel, and there is no reason to assume he can, then Enel can continue to blast and attack Blackbeard.

I agree, one sharp blow from Blackbeard would knock Enel out, but I am not sure if Blackbeard can actually hit him. It would take effort, more so than with Ace, in my opinion. That is why I said the fight was fairly even. Blackbeard may be able to take the attacks, but if he can not deal out damage in return, then he would be defeated.

btwm I went to the chapter that Robin talked about Enel power, and I see where I got the wrong impression of Enel's power (it's the Goro Goro fruit, right)? I misremembered what Robin said. I thought she said that he was a user of a legendary fruit, rather she simply said that he has the power of a lengadary logia (the class was legendary, not the fruit itself).

Lightning effects the heart, but it mostly effects the brain, slowing down reaction times and causing you to ultimately slow down. Blackbeard is not fast on his feet, even if he has fast hands, he only has two and mantra gives you the ability to see through attack patterns. In many respects, Mantra is similiar to the pre-time skip Sharingan, in the respect that it can help track and decipher attack patterns. If Blackbeard can not hit Enel, and there is no reason to assume he can, then Enel can continue to blast and attack Blackbeard.

I agree, one sharp blow from Blackbeard would knock Enel out, but I am not sure if Blackbeard can actually hit him. It would take effort, more so than with Ace, in my opinion. That is why I said the fight was fairly even. Blackbeard may be able to take the attacks, but if he can not deal out damage in return, then he would be defeated.

The problem here is that Enel cannot attack at a distance forever. If Blackbeard uses his gravity vortex, Enel will be sucked in and he will have to contend with Blackbeard at close range. This will be a completely undesirable situation for Enel, for as we both have agreed, Blackbeard will take him out in one hit when this happens. Also, about Blackbeard not being fast on his feet, do we really know this? He chose to stay stationary throughout the entire fight just to demonstrate what his abilities were like. We haven't seen what he fights like when he goes on the offensive. You have to remember that Blackbeard was prepared to take the risk of still being vulnerable to damage before he consumed his darkness fruit. This must mean that he is very confident in his physical abilities and that he had already taken into account the possibility of having to fight logia users on his pirate expeditions. If he wasn't able to withstand the powerful effects of logias, he would not have eaten the darkness fruit.