Linda and Ellen - happy to hear you found my description to be insightful. It feels good to be able to contribute back to a forum that has already taught me so much! Looking forward to continuing the discussion.

Here's my exploration of the whole Virgo archetype:Virgo symbolizes the impulse of each soul to become as self accurate as possible. In so doing, what's happening? It is not reaching a state of perfection that is attained by the any external behavior once or ever. The awareness reached is nothing other than the willing realization of a soul that it is playing a necessary role in the scheme of the totality of life. This awareness trumps the need to reach a state of perfection, as it keeps a soul in a state of humilty, surrender, and forgiveness. Through Virgo, a soul develops devotion to a constant bettering of it's own self awareness.

Something really interesting to note about the garden of eden myth: Before the "sin" in chapter 3, the bible says at the end of Chapter 2, "They were naked and were not ashamed." Then the serpent comes on the scene...Chapter 3 tells the story of the sin and the subsequent curse. Immediately after that, in the beginning of chapter 4, the bible says something that isn't very noticeable in the English language."And Adam KNEW Eve his Wife" Hebrew: "Adum YADAH et chava ishto" The word "knew" which is of course a sexual knowing in this context, has the Hebrew root "YaDaH". In the previous chapter, they ate from the tree of KNOWLEDGE of good and evil, the etz HADA'AT. The tree of knowledge in chapter 3 and the biblical knowing in chapter 4 share the same hebrew word for knowledge "YaDaH"...

This to me is an amazing clue in to the nature of the distortion.

Hi Ari, I find this really interesting. Would you mind elaborating on just what this clue reveals to you, ie, is it showing to you primarily that a cultural shift took place and that now this knowing, with the separation of spirit/body was seen as somehow sinful..? Is it relationship-based in that, originally, in our natural state, meaning came from relationship itself, but then, through distortion, we somehow cam to believe that meaning had to be found outside of relationship/outside of ourselves...etc...? I just want to make sure I'm understanding. Thanks a lot, Ellen

Note also the natural square between Sag and Virgo. Guilt about natural law. In this state of consciousness, a soul perceives itself to be innately flawed and actually deserving of constant suffering based on it's perceived nature as a sinner. The body itself is a sin. In chapter 3, immediately after eating the fruit, adam and eve covered up their nakedness with fig leaves. Suddenly they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and bad and they had "knowledge". Now sexuality was an act of "knowing". Now the body was something to be covered up. The natural isness of life was no longer experienced as they began to impose upon natural law all these "ideas" based on a complete distortion.

What I take from it, which is of course just my own thoughts on the matter, is that prior to eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil there were NO ASSOCIATIONS made with nudity and sexuality. As it says "they were naked and were not ashamed". Then after eating of the tree of knowledge, they suddenly "knew" what the body was, what sexuality was. What was this "knowing"? As implied by the fact that they covered up, that there is something about the body to be ashamed of. Prior to the eating of the fruit sexuality existed

Distorted Virgo correlates to the idea (square to Sag/Gemini) of inherent sinfulness. So they are kicked out of the garden of eden, and they sexually "knew" each other, then they gave birth to two sons, who themselves had a rivalry- one killed the other, which created more guilt (chapter 4 verse 13)... and so goes on the rest of the old testament... a book full of ideas and dogmas that we are "supposed to know".

So I just see that the sexuality was impeded by unnecessary intellectualization, based on a guilt and shame linked to their essential nature.

If I recall correctly, the patriarchy began towards the end of the age of Cancer, moving towards the age of Gemini. Actually, will someone confirm that? I don't have the measuring the night where the dates were listed with me.Ari Moshe

I think I understand what you are saying. But it brings up another question for me, and that is just how does EA understand the Garden of Eden myth? Does EA look at the myth simply as a signifier of the patriarchy? Or does it also look at the myth as an important allegory from which much can be learned? Or something else? In my post to you I had been thinking about it primarily as a story that revealed the patriarchy - a story that was imposing an idea from without. If I understand you correctly you are seeing the story as an allegory from which much can be learned about our current predicaments - that it is an intrinsically meaningful story. I am probably splitting hairs with this question, but it is something that I have wondered about since reading about the EA understanding of the Virgo archetype. I am not sure it changes anything with regard to the archetype, but I thought it was worth posting the question to see what comes up as the answer could potentially reveal subtleties about the archetype itself...

Here is a quote from JWG's Lucifer Workshop that may help shed some light on the "knowledge" that Adam and Eve became aware of as they were cast out of the garden:

"So – Lucifer in Pisces. The intent of evil is to keep the person away from Spirit or God – by creating the illusion that the meaning that they’re seeking is in this new manifestation of this or this or this.......So the antidote through Virgo is what?.......you could say mental discernment through Virgo."

Adam and Eve had been perfectly aligned with God in the garden (consciousness, Pisces). Lucifer tempted them with an illusion that separated them from the Spirit of God. Consequently they were cast out of the garden as a result of a separating desire. Being separate from God made them feel worthless and this crisis lead to analysis and self-knowledge through pain.

The patriarchy began to dominate women and Nature itself, creating man-made doctrines and beliefs. Virgo methods and techniques were necessary to activate the transcendent impulse so as to re-align with God, to make the process conscious and base it in reality. The transcendent impulse stimulates the principle of evolution through separating and returning desires. It became necessary to learn mental discernment, and to be able to see through the illusions that the patriarchy had created.

Here is a quote from JWG's Lucifer Workshop that may help shed some light on the "knowledge" that Adam and Eve became aware of as they were cast out of the garden:

"So – Lucifer in Pisces. The intent of evil is to keep the person away from Spirit or God – by creating the illusion that the meaning that they’re seeking is in this new manifestation of this or this or this.......So the antidote through Virgo is what?.......you could say mental discernment through Virgo."

Adam and Eve had been perfectly aligned with God in the garden (consciousness, Pisces). Lucifer tempted them with an illusion that separated them from the Spirit of God. Consequently they were cast out of the garden as a result of a separating desire. Being separate from God made them feel worthless and this crisis lead to analysis and self-knowledge through pain.

Hi Linda,

Thanks for this. So it seems that the answer to my quesion is really both - the story is intrinsically meaningful in that it shows us how we get fooled by evil and thus the need for virgo-type discernment. Yet it is also not meaningful, ie, it is also just a patriarchal distortion once it takes the turn of blaming Eve (women).

Ari, I know that Riane Eisler talks about the Cain and Abel story as a story that marks the transition between the matriarchy (hunter/gatherer) and the patriarchy (emerging agrarian culture. In that story "God" chooses Abel's offering - symbolic of the new agrarian (patriarchal) culture, but rejects Cain's (symbolic of the hunter/gatherer culture. (I read Eisler's book a long time ago so if I have the details wrong or am remembering the gyst incorrrectly, perhaps someone can step in and correct what I've written). Perhaps the same shift can be seen in the Garden of Eden story - the 1st part simply the retelling of an age-old wisdom story, while the last part throws in a patriarchal twist, misdirecting people w/ regard to the real meaning of it. That makes things clearer for me...

Peace,Ellen

The patriarchy began to dominate women and Nature itself, creating man-made doctrines and beliefs. Virgo methods and techniques were necessary to activate the transcendent impulse so as to re-align with God, to make the process conscious and base it in reality. The transcendent impulse stimulates the principle of evolution through separating and returning desires. It became necessary to learn mental discernment, and to be able to see through the illusions that the patriarchy had created.

VIRGO: An outline of the archetype in its empowered form, as an expression of the Natural Law of giving, sharing and inclusion

Virgo's element is Earth and its intelligence serves to bring about positive changes for the Earth and its inhabitants. Chiron's ruler is Virgo, so not only is Virgo a gate to higher consciousness of the outer planets, but it also is moving away from an egocentric orientation, the focus shifting from oneself to others/society.

Mutable in nature, Virgo desires to see change on all levels. It is quite an active energy, and with lots of mutable movement, it scans the environment, for progress cannot be made by simply standing still.

The intellect/sharp analytical mind is employed in the service of others by its ability to find the faults in any system and offer improvements. The desire for perfection would translate to a tool for mastering reality. This archetype would essentially be able to distinguish between illusion and reality.

Mercury (Hermes) is connected with the medical profession, with physical and psychological health. This is an obvious manifestation of Virgo in its empowered form, e.g. healing and alchemical skills, mental meditation work.

As an expression of the Natural Law of giving, sharing and inclusion, the Virgo archetype is truly sincere and humble (at-one-ment), going to any length to be of practical service to others.

The Virgo archetype correlating to its expression in Natural Law would include natural, holistic and alternative medicine fields, such as Chinese medicine, Ayurveda, homeopathy, acupuncture, naturopathy, nutritional-based therapies, herbal medicine.

My week is quickly becoming much busier than anticipated and I have a test next Monday so my weekend will be busy with studying. I am still intent on participating on this thread but I may not be able to contribute for a bit. I did read your 2 posts and am contemplating this whole question of Virgo's expression within the context of natural law. I find this challenging - hard to latch onto... But your posts were helpful. Hopefully others will be posting; I am hoping I will manage to find the time to at least pop in to read what others have posted.

I hope this thread acts as a catalyst for further exploration and study. Like you, I'm eager to learn more.

On the Capricorn archetype thread Deva said: .....the Sag archetype correlates with the need to become aware of our connection to the universe in a metaphysical/cosmological context. This underlying need gives rise to the nature of all sorts of belief systems (and also religions) that attempt to explain our connection to the universe. This is where the issue of interpretation comes into play (our belief system is the determinate to how any of us will interpret life itself). The point within this is that, by the sheer fact that Creation exists, there must be intrinsic natural laws that govern and explain the nature of Creation (natural laws that are self-evident in nature). These natural laws, of course, have nothing to do with man-made religions and the laws that are taught in such religions. The intent within the Sag archetype is to align with natural law in order evolve and grow past limited beliefs that are based on man-made laws (The sag archetype also symbolizes growth and expansion). This is why the sag archetye correlates with natural law.

I have more questions than answers!

Since Virgo squares Sagittarius, how does the Virgo archetype grow past limited beliefs based on man-made laws?How does the Virgo archetype express natural principles and laws demonstrated in nature? What is our natural relationship to the Earth?What are the natural laws governing our physical and psychological health?What are examples of natural guilt associated with Natural Law?What are examples of guilt associated with man-made law?What therapies would enable growth beyond suppressed natural instincts? (eg sexual function)How the Virgo step-by-step analytical approach to learning and problem-solving interacts with the intuitive basis of learning?How can intuited knowledge and information be communicated through Virgo?What inadequacies, lacks, shortcomings and faults will Virgo find in man-made law?How does Virgo deal with the Earth crisis philosophically?How can the Virgo archetype benefit and service the larger whole to bring about improvements?Since atonement is linked with guilt, what inferiority/ego humiliation could that lead to?What are the obsessions/compulsions of the Virgo archetype? (workaholism, food disorders)What is the natural role of Virgo within the matriarchal tradition?How have our natural desires as a function of natural law been conditioned/suppressed/distorted by religious/ideological belief systems?How we can see through Virgo eyes at the circus of the world, to find the Truth?How modern people avoid the psychoanalytical investigation of their natures?The obscenities taking place in the name of god and religion?The new age shams and gimmicks which are inauthentic versions of cleansing?

As an expression of the Natural Law of giving, sharing and inclusion, the Virgo archetype is truly sincere and humble (at-one-ment), going to any length to be of practical service to others.

Hi Linda, All,

My question: what exactly are the natural laws? Is the law of giving/sharing/inclusion all-emcompassing, or just one of a number of natural laws? I ask this because it is occurring to me that if I want to understand Virgo's natural expression, I need to know just what the natural laws are so that I can then consider Virgo within that...

Good question. I can only join you in asking it! As Deva said, the Sag archetype determines how we each interpret life. It is a growing and expanding dynamic.

Deva said: The intent within the Sag archetype is to align with natural law in order evolve and grow past limited beliefs that are based on man-made laws (The sag archetype also symbolizes growth and expansion). This is why the sag archetype correlates with natural law.

Here is something I found, but may be incorrect:

1. The Law of Mind.2. The Law of Correspondence.3. The Law of Vibration.4. The Law of Polarity.5. The Law of Rhythm.6. The Law of Cause and Effect.7. The Law of Gender.

I would like to know what are the Spiritual/Cosmological Laws of the Universe.

Virgo to Sag: To live morally and ethically in order to address the sicknesses/faults/imperfections of modern society and its man-made belief systems. To simply be honest and fair. To understand the diversity of life and beliefs. Diversity is a natural law. My perception of life is unique to myself.

Virgo opposite Pisces: To face the Truth of Reality, to break through the illusions, lies and confusion, and the compensations born out of them. To separate from falseness and align with spiritual values.

The Law of Cause and Effect: If the order of Nature continues to be violated with destructive practices and toxic psyches, would reap the evolutionary consequences.

Beyond Leo: The necessity to go beyond the inflation of the Leonian ego, the attitude of "I deserve," and the greedy hoarding and filling up on the resources of Mother Nature.

Projection: How psychic sickness is projected out there, onto others (self-righteousness), whereas it is a matter of taking personal responsibility and positive action for ones own life - and therefore healing of the collective.

Good question. I can only join you in asking it! As Deva said, the Sag archetype determines how we each interpret life. It is a growing and expanding dynamic.

Deva said: The intent within the Sag archetype is to align with natural law in order evolve and grow past limited beliefs that are based on man-made laws (The sag archetype also symbolizes growth and expansion). This is why the sag archetype correlates with natural law.

Here is something I found, but may be incorrect:

1. The Law of Mind.2. The Law of Correspondence.3. The Law of Vibration.4. The Law of Polarity.5. The Law of Rhythm.6. The Law of Cause and Effect.7. The Law of Gender.

I would like to know what are the Spiritual/Cosmological Laws of the Universe.

Hi Linda,

I remember somewhere JWG also talking about Magnetsism as with regard to created reality and also Projection (you mention this one in your next post but I wasn't sure how you were thinking of it. I usually think iof projection as a dysfuctional thing, but I remember JWG talking about projection as part of the reality of creation itself - God having had to Project itself outward..