tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post2370155467061138070..comments2019-09-15T04:36:24.674-05:00Comments on Althouse: What "privileges" would Barack Obama give to the Guantanamo detainees?Ann Althousehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comBlogger90125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-74536978539095108402008-06-20T13:43:00.000-05:002008-06-20T13:43:00.000-05:00If Obama gets elected president, within the first ...If Obama gets elected president, within the first few days in the oval office, he's going to call the Justice department about the detainees in Guantanamo. Someone will show up with a bunch of spooks. They'll drop a stack of folders on President Obama's desk. He'll start reading. He'll shit his pants and that's the last we'll hear of putting the detainees on trial.<BR/><BR/>(At one point, even Obama will surely ask; "Why didn't we just shoot these bastards?" To which the correct response would be: "Because of you and your liberal friends.")Joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04450897654318345683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-67707341493873089372008-06-19T23:25:00.000-05:002008-06-19T23:25:00.000-05:00Hmmm.@ former law student"So you support Hamas's c...Hmmm.<BR/><BR/>@ former law student<BR/><BR/>"So you support Hamas's continued detention of Israeli Cpl. Gilad Shalit? Are you an anti-Semite?"<BR/><BR/>There was no formal declaration of war when Shalit was kidnapped.<BR/><BR/>So don't be a dumbass.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1882736817482322102008-06-19T23:12:00.000-05:002008-06-19T23:12:00.000-05:00Hmmm.Ok that's a question. What precisely are the...Hmmm.<BR/><BR/>Ok that's a question. <BR/><BR/>What precisely are the rules of evidence for one of these detainee habeas corpus clown shows?<BR/><BR/>Is the evidence presented required to adhere to normal US evidence laws?<BR/><BR/>Seriously. Are we going to be seeing a C.S.I. Sadr City??Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-55569033971796491282008-06-19T23:03:00.000-05:002008-06-19T23:03:00.000-05:00Hmmmm.@ garage mahal"Being able to challenge your ...Hmmmm.<BR/><BR/>@ garage mahal<BR/><BR/>"Being able to challenge your detention in front of a neutral judge will result in lost cities? I see this mentioned every time this subject comes up - can someone connect the dots on exactly how this could happen for this old dhimmi?"<BR/><BR/>How will the detainee challenge the detention? By referencing and using the evidence that the US has, which might include highly classified and/or sensitive information. So then we're in a situation where the information might be valuable enough that it cannot be revealed.<BR/><BR/>In which case the detainee is set free to kill again.<BR/><BR/>Another possibility is that the evidence is challenged on the basis of the current rules. Is there a formal *chain of evidence*? How is this tracked? Without such a chain could it be argued that the evidence could be tainted?<BR/><BR/>What if there isn't any physical evidence but only testimony? By a US soldier? Who died in subsequent action? Now there's no witness.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-75239858640195315762008-06-19T21:46:00.000-05:002008-06-19T21:46:00.000-05:00garage mahal said... PogoWe know there are terrori...<I>garage mahal said... <BR/>Pogo<BR/>We know there are terrorists in the world who wish us harm. My question is how giving a suspect the right to challenge their detention to a neutral judge after being picked up (the vast majority not even apprehended by U.S. forces) will result in mass death and destruction of U.S cities.</I><BR/><BR/>The problem is you have criminal justice trained and experienced lawyers now put in a position of seeing what <B>crime</B> and enemy soldier has done that could justify holding them under habeas. Under those rules, we would have had no criminal case against almost all the of the 400,000 Nazis held in the US. They comitted no crime - unless you think that volunteering or being involuntarily drafted (most of the soldiers who technically only 2-3% had Nazi Party membership) and serving your nation or cause under arms is a criminal offense.<BR/><BR/>Being caught with a machine gun out of uniform is not a crime - it is a violation of rules that will lose you POW status and make you subject to execution, but not a crime. Nuremberg did not consider Germans they caught who had gone past enemy lines and did spying or sabotage (inc. blowing up civilians) as war criminals, but as heroes. Just as Allies considered our own OSS agents, Soviet partisans, Yugoslav guerillas.<BR/><BR/>In a habeas hearing, what civilian crime could the German POWs be held on? The thousands of German and Italian civilians in N Africa that worked alongside troops doing vital technical and service functions then captured with the rest? The involuntary draftees. Would the judge at the time, armed with the <I>Boumediene</I> SCOTUS declaration of judicial civilian supremacy over the legislative and executive branches in a war and jurisdiction over all zones "controlled by US military" been forced to release them back to Germany? What if 100 of the POWs were civilians that worked for Messerschmitt on fighter plane engines, combat cannons and optic sights captured by US forces in Tunisia? Would it be proper for those "innocent civilians" to be let go back to the German aircraft works in Munich because they "committed no crime, yet are held captive??"<BR/><BR/>***************<BR/>My sense is that Obama has begun digging himself a deep hole as champion of "rule of law" (meaning judicial supremacy over the other two branches in matters of war) and as spokesmen for terrorist rights. So it will be fun to see him dig deeper, and, perhaps as President, confronted by angry relatives of soldiers or US civilians killed by people he encouraged be released back into Jihad.<BR/><BR/>The larger issue, beyond Obama, love of enemy rights, and the deaths this decision may cause is the Judiciary itself.<BR/><BR/>It has grown mad with power, and like the Jewish Sanhedrin of scholars and jurists, seeks to dominate over the People, their leaders, their laws cast by representatives. They wield their Constitution as the final word. Spoken and interpreted only through them, of course. Just as the Sanhedrin sought to club down the rest of Israel with their word being final in Mosaic Law and Talmud - only to weaken Israel for conquest.<BR/><BR/>They listened so hard to hysterical Leftists saying Bush was "shredding the Constitution" while doing at best a smidgion of what Washington, Adams, Franklin, Lincoln, Wilson, FDR, Truman, JFK, LBJ, and Nixon did - that to get HIM, they did their own shredding of the Constitution and the idea of co-equal branches operating in balance. <BR/><BR/>In a better world, (right after the 2nd American Revolution)one in my dreams - matters like affirmative action, Kelo, abortion, arbitary allocation of judicial mandates, elected officials conduct of war, how long death penalty appeals would be permitted, and equal rights in child custofy hearings would be voted on by The People. Energy, public works, and environmental matters would be decided by vote on projects after reasonable debate<BR/>- not by 10-30 year long "legal processes of the courts to decide all such matters". Corrupt officials would face swift and certain punishment, including one stroke of a rattan can or bullwhip for each 10,000 bucks they ripped off businesses or individuals of.<BR/>Dual citizenship would be banned, no birthright citizenship for illegal spawn, and the Borders would be controlled with no lawyer allowed to intervene.<BR/><BR/>After the Revolution, if I had my say, we would resurrect the guillotine and the public would be allowed to cheer as the people that helped drag America down were drawn to their fate in tumbrels.<BR/><BR/>Tom Delay, George W. Bush, Ruth Ginsburg, David Souter, most ACLU lawyers and nearly the whole 8th Circuit. Teddy Kennedy for mass immigration and his real crimes long covered up. His son Patrick just to stop the bad seed from infecting future generations. A 1 of 10 decimation of the Yale Law School faculty where social progress and the necessary bypassing of Democracy is the agenda, not educating people on law and Justice.<BR/><BR/>(PS - Over in Europe, the Irish just did a blow to unaccountable lawyers and EUcrats by voting down the idea that the will of the people in nations no longer matters. A vote on "Enabling Acts" that said most political matters will be decided by "experts and objective professional lawyers and public servants ruling Europe from Brussels. Only in Ireland were the Ruling Elites not able to block a vote by The People after the Fiasco of the Dutch and French public voting down the proposed EU Constitution. And the Irish, who fought centuries for their freedom from other Powerful, unaccountable Euros, came through.)Cedarfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00602418702398818596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-4521551572355131322008-06-19T20:32:00.000-05:002008-06-19T20:32:00.000-05:00According to news reports about 30 of those who ha...<I>According to news reports about 30 of those who have been released have resumed their fight against us.</I><BR/><BR/>more precisely as I understand it, we have recaught or killed 30 of those released in our older catch and release program.<BR/><BR/>Whose to say what many of the other 500 are doing?The Drill SGThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16394309533144027391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-78299438024082945912008-06-19T20:19:00.000-05:002008-06-19T20:19:00.000-05:00Simon, if you haven't already, you should read Tri...Simon, if you haven't already, you should read <A HREF="http://www.ejectejecteject.com/archives/000129.html" REL="nofollow">Tribes</A>Fenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16734571593963330215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-14288739566994400562008-06-19T20:11:00.000-05:002008-06-19T20:11:00.000-05:00amba said..."[Simon said 'as callous as this may s...amba said...<BR/>"<I>[Simon said 'as callous as this may sound, isn't it so that the people who want to handle this as a law enforcement exercise live in the cities that are the prime targets for the next attack? And so, isn't this a self-correcting problem, for the most part?'] Hey Simon, for the sake of ten just men will you save the city? You're tougher than God, man.</I>"<BR/><BR/>If it were up to me, Amba, yes I would - but a whole bunch of the folks living in those cities keep telling us that they don't believe they're in any danger and keep blackballing us and saying how how we're brownshirts and fascists because we want to take measures that may save their asses. At a certain point, sympathy starts to run cold, you know? At what point do you quit trying to help someone who doesn't want help and who brands you as unamerican for even trying?Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10065798213115341398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-21010914230402609552008-06-19T19:33:00.000-05:002008-06-19T19:33:00.000-05:00For the sake of millions of men, I will let the ci...For the sake of millions of men, I will let the city fall.Fenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16734571593963330215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-50967174928089186882008-06-19T19:06:00.000-05:002008-06-19T19:06:00.000-05:00as callous as this may sound, isn't it so that the...<I>as callous as this may sound, isn't it so that the people who want to handle this as a law enforcement exercise live in the cities that are the prime targets for the next attack? And so, isn't this a self-correcting problem, for the most part?</I><BR/><BR/>Hey Simon, for the sake of ten just men will you save the city? You're tougher than God, man.ambahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12042450225428891273noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-89874251202492978132008-06-19T18:50:00.000-05:002008-06-19T18:50:00.000-05:00Obama is imprecise about everything he says, and t...Obama is imprecise about everything he says, and the MSM lets him get away with it. That is the secret of his success. <BR/><BR/>Regarding the detainees at GITMO, even if they are not gulity of any crime, it seems to me that they should be held until they no longer pose a threat. According to news reports about 30 of those who have been released have resumed their fight against us. When I was a boy there was a prisoner of war camp where my elderly uncles worked as guards. The Germans in those camps weren't accused of crimes, but they were not released until the war was over. It appears to me that many like Obama regard the Constitution as a suicide pact.James Williamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18191610333762378070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-3501798420982119832008-06-19T18:09:00.001-05:002008-06-19T18:09:00.001-05:00Roger J said...I doubt that some of the tenderhear...<I>Roger J said...I doubt that some of the tenderhearted souls on this board would approve of my approach--but it would be much more effective.</I><BR/><BR/>2 in the chest and 1 in the head?<BR/><BR/>or alternatively just one 120mm DU APFSDS?The Drill SGThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16394309533144027391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-78134882451346105122008-06-19T18:09:00.000-05:002008-06-19T18:09:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.The Drill SGThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16394309533144027391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-46968984824775292592008-06-19T17:21:00.000-05:002008-06-19T17:21:00.000-05:00Now, I'm just a lowly law-layperson, but I thought...Now, I'm just a lowly law-layperson, but I thought one big purpose in the tribunal procedures that Congress put together (and that the SCOTUS just shot down as inadequate) was to keep detainees out of the US judicial system. You see, the way I look at it, bringing someone into the US courts but not giving them "full privileges" only serves to muddy up the judicial system and what is and isn't allowed therin. If an individual isn't to be given "full privileges" then they should be kept out of the US judicial system if for no other reason than to preserve the integrity of that system.submandavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15950457116215345788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-5416724070534853022008-06-19T16:42:00.000-05:002008-06-19T16:42:00.000-05:00What's interesting about all of this-like a bad ca...What's interesting about all of this-like a bad case of cancer-is;<BR/><BR/>If the Marines in Lebanon,if the military at the Khobar towers, and on the USS Cole, and those guarding the embassies at Kenya and Tanzania been treated like <I>full</I> US citizens-and <BR/><BR/>IF-the the USS Cole and embassies had been treated as US Sovereign territory we might not have come to this "fine" mess.<BR/><BR/>The end result being you have a "moving target" of what should be considered as US territory.<BR/><BR/>When you want to prosecute terrorism in order to respond to the deaths of US military it's-something less than.<BR/><BR/>However, when you are worried about the "rights" of our enemies somehow it's <I>all</I> the full blown US of A.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-41382156644291561192008-06-19T16:15:00.000-05:002008-06-19T16:15:00.000-05:00FLS, could you please enlighten me as to just when...FLS, could you please enlighten me as to just when was the several American soldiers who were captured in Iraq taken before a tribunal and just how has their respective POW status worked out? Did I just miss their hearings? Each were leitimate combatants and entitled to GC protections as they did meet the tests. Each of the US soldiers certainly carried their GC identification cards on their person. Might I inquire as to why Human Rights watch hasn't bothered to investigate the treatment of these captured soldiers? <BR/><BR/>Since one party has clearly not complied to the GC then why should we now feel the need? Might I suggest that Rule 303 now be applied.Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11415427249898754955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-2522169752466316562008-06-19T16:09:00.000-05:002008-06-19T16:09:00.000-05:00Joe Veenstra,Iraqis aren't held in Guantanamo (unl...Joe Veenstra,<BR/><BR/>Iraqis aren't held in Guantanamo (unless they were captured in Afghanistan). All Iraqis detainees are held in Iraq under an entirely different structure than the Guantanamo "enemy combatant" designation. <BR/><BR/>So whatever we're doing to find terrorists in Iraq, it has no bearing on the liklihood that we're holding innocent civilians in Guantanamo.Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03537538068431912959noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-40211111804511595912008-06-19T16:05:00.000-05:002008-06-19T16:05:00.000-05:00I doubt that some of the tenderhearted souls on th...<I>I doubt that some of the tenderhearted souls on this board would approve of my approach-</I><BR/><BR/><I>I'd</I> approve.<BR/>Hell, I wouldn't even ask what it was.Pogohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00124201866124646626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-76805953034377529682008-06-19T15:56:00.000-05:002008-06-19T15:56:00.000-05:00This old soldier agrees with the other old soldier...This old soldier agrees with the other old soldier about law enforcement as a counter terrorism strategy--batsh*t crazy.<BR/><BR/>I doubt that some of the tenderhearted souls on this board would approve of my approach--but it would be much more effective.Roger J.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12639676792043324100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-28267868008630174382008-06-19T15:38:00.000-05:002008-06-19T15:38:00.000-05:00What process is due? What rights can they enforce?...<I>What process is due? What rights can they enforce? And he doesn't tell us</I><BR/><BR/>The problem is that the DTA was struck down, and the DTA provided for plenty of rights. The DTA is the process that is due.Mortimer Breznyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16964027337144379262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-41316652775363383202008-06-19T15:21:00.000-05:002008-06-19T15:21:00.000-05:00"And why is he saying "privileges" and not "rights..."And why is he saying "privileges" and not "rights""<BR/><BR/>Read Harry Frankfurt's essay "Bullshit" and you'll be on track to coming up with the answer.PrestoPundithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02562042392964282677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-54949998067341127232008-06-19T15:06:00.000-05:002008-06-19T15:06:00.000-05:00So you support Hamas's continued detention of Isra...<EM>So you support Hamas's continued detention of Israeli Cpl. Gilad Shalit?</EM><BR/><BR/>Shalit was a uniformed soldier with an identifiable chain of command and, presumably, a Geneva Conventions ID card. Apples, oranges, etc.<BR/><BR/>Not that it frankly matters, since Hamas is going to hold Shalit whatever you, I, Ann, Obama, or the US Supreme Court thinks about it.Ofc. Krupkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02703990784067028508noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-48462717431316043542008-06-19T15:02:00.000-05:002008-06-19T15:02:00.000-05:00Can anyone say obfuscation?Yes - Obamafuscation.FW...<I>Can anyone say obfuscation?</I><BR/><BR/>Yes - Obamafuscation.<BR/><BR/>FWIW, here is <A HREF="http://congrecord.liberatedtext.org/habcorp/060927/cr27se06-247_obama.html" REL="nofollow">a link</A> to Obama's 2006 Senate statement explaining his opposition to the Military Commissions Act, where he discusses the issue of habeas rights for Gitmo detainees. <BR/><BR/>Tom MaguireTomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16823001650326197645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-13414989755598519952008-06-19T14:51:00.000-05:002008-06-19T14:51:00.000-05:00FLS:I would also like to point out that while Clin...FLS:<BR/>I would also like to point out that while Clinton was unable to capture Bin Laden in the two years remaining in his term, W. was unable to capture Bin Laden in the seven+ years he's been President. Thus W. is roughly four times the weeny Clinton was.<BR/><BR/>Let's see, World Trade Center gets bombed in '93 Clinton is president from 1993 to 2001....How long is that?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-43764968731778356612008-06-19T14:15:00.000-05:002008-06-19T14:15:00.000-05:00former law student has left a new comment on the p...former law student has left a new comment on the post "What "privileges" would Barack Obama give to the G...":<BR/>"<I>[If prisoners of war are detained for the duration of hostilities because if they escape or are released, they will rejoin the fight, do] you support Hamas's continued detention of Israeli Cpl. Gilad Shalit?</I>"<BR/><BR/>The premise of the question makes what strikes me as either a category error or a quite novel claim -- viz., that a private organization can take and hold prisoners of war. I know no precedent for that. Historically, hasn't it been that <I>only</I> nation-states have been deemed competent to do that? Because Hamas is a private actor rather than a nation-state, it seems to me that its detention of Cpl. Shalit is simple kidnapping, not the taking of a prisoner of war. If Hamas had legitimately achieved political power in Lebanon, however, and committed the state of Lebanon to a declared war with Israel, in pursuance of which it had detained Cpl. Shalit as a prisoner of war, that could conceivably be within the traditional compass of the taking and keeping of PoWs.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10065798213115341398noreply@blogger.com