WOMAN: Could you talk a bit more about
the role that sports play in the society in de-politicizing people? It seems to
me it's more significant than people usually assume.

That's an interesting one,
actually I don't know all that much about it personally, but just looking at
the phenomenon from the outside, it's obvious that professional sports, and
non-participation sports generally, play a huge role. I mean, there's no doubt
they take up just a tremendous amount of attention.

In fact, I have the habit when
I'm driving of turning on these radio-calling programs, and it's striking when
you listen to the ones about sports. They have these groups of sports
reporters, or some kind of experts on a panel, and people call in and have discussions
with them. First of all, the audience obviously is devoting an enormous amount
of time to it all. But the more@striking fact is, the callers have a tremendous
amount of expertise, they@have detailed knowledge of all kinds of things, they
carry on these extremely complex discussions. And strikingly, they're not at
all in awe of the experts - which is a little unusual. See, in most parts of
the society, you're encouraged to defer to experts: we all do it more than we
should. But in this area, people don't seem to do it - they're quite happy to
have an argument with the coach of the Boston Celtics, and tell him what he
should have done, and enter into big debates with him and so on. So the fact is
that in this domain, people somehow feel quite confident, and they know a lot -
there's obviously a great deal of intelligence going into it.

Actually, it reminds me in some
ways of things that you find in non-literate or non-technological cultures -
what are called "primitive" cultures - where for example, you get
extremely elaborate kinship systems. Some anthropologists believe these systems
have to do with incest taboos and so on, but that's kind of unlikely, because
they're just elaborated way beyond any functional utility. And when you look at
the structure of them, they seem like a kind of mathematics. It's as though
people want to work out mathematical problems, and if they don't have calculus
and arithmetic, they work them out with other structures. And one of the
structures everybody has is relationship of kinship -- so you work out your
elaborate structures around that, and you develop experts, and theories, and so
on. Or another thing you sometimes findin non-literate cultures is developments of the most extraordinary
linguistic systems: often there's tremendous sophistication about language, and
people play all sorts of games with language. So there are puberty rites where
people who go through the same initiation period develop their own language
that's usually some modification of the actual language, but with quite complex
mental operations differentiating it - then that's theirs for the rest of their
lives, and not other people's. And what all these things look like is that
people just want to use their intelligence somehow, and if you don't have a lot
of technology and so on, you doother things.

Well, in our society, we have
things that you might use your intelligence on, like politics, but people
really can't get involved in them in a very serious way - so what they do is
they put their minds into other things, such as sports. You're trained to be
obedient; you don't have an interesting job; there's no work around for you
that's creative; in the cultural environment you're a passive observer of
usually pretty tawdry stuff; political and social life are out of your range,
they're in the hands of the rich folk. So what's left? Well, one thing that's
left is sports-so you put a lot of the intelligence and the thought and the
self-confidence into that. And I suppose that's also one of the basic functions
it serves in the society in general it occupies the population, and keeps them
from trying to get involved with things that really matter. In fact, I presume
that's part of the reason why spectator sports are supported to the degree they
are by the dominant institutions.

And spectator sports also have
other useful functions too. For one thing, they're a great way to build up
chauvinism-you start by developing these totally irrational loyalties early in
life, and they translate very nicely to other areas. I mean, I remember very
well in high school having a sudden kind of Erlebnis, you know, a sudden
insight, and asking myself, why do I care if my high school football team wins?
I don't know anybody on the team. They don't know me. I wouldn't know what to
say to them if I met them. Why do I care? Why do I get all excited if the
football team wins and all downcast if it loses? Anti it's true, you do: you're
taught from childhoodthat you've got to worry about the
Philadelphia Phillies, where I was. In fact, there's apparently a psychological
phenomenon of lack of self-confidence or something which affected boys of
approximately my age who grew up in Philadelphia, because every sports team was
always in last place, and it's kind of a blow to your ego when that happens,
people are always lording it over you.

But the point is, this sense of
irrational loyalty to some sort of meaningless community is training for
subordination to power, and for chauvinism. And of course, you're looking at
gladiators, you're looking at guys who can do things you couldn't possibly do -
like, you couldn't pole-vault seventeen feet, or do all these crazy things
these people do. But it's a model that you're supposed to try to emulate. And
they're gladiators fighting for your cause, so you've got to cheer them on, and
you've got to be happy when the opposing quarterback gets carted off the field
a total wreck and so on. All of this stuff builds up extremely anti-social
aspects of human psychology. I mean, they're there; there's no doubt that
they're there. But they're emphasized, and exaggerated, and brought out by
spectator sports: irrational competition, irrational loyalty to power systems,
passive acquiescence to quite awful values, really. In fact, it's hard to
imagine anything that contributes more fundamentally to authoritarian attitudes
than this does, in addition to the fact that it just engages a lot of
intelligence and keeps people away from other things.

So if you look at the whole
phenomenon, it seems to me that it plays quite a substantial social role. I
don't think it's the only thing that has this kind of effect. Soap operas, for
example, do it in another domain ? they
teach people other kinds of passivity and absurdity. As a matter of fact, if
you really want to do a serious media critique right across the board, these
are the types of things which occupy most of the media, after all - most of it
isn't shaping the news about El Salvador for politically articulate people,
it's diverting the general population from things that really matter. So this
is one respect in which the work that Ed Herman and I have done on the media is
really defective - we don't talk about it much. But this stuff is a major part
of the whole indoctrination and propaganda system, and it's worth examining
more closely. There are people who've written about it, Neil Postman and others
- I just don't feel enough acquaintance with it to say more.