Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

NO C-14 IN COALhttp://beforeus.com-C-14 dating is generally accurate to within 150 years, or up to 250 years.-Most results are rendered invalid by absorption, leaching, cosmic radiation, and a proven varied rate of decay.-Balloon soundings show that much more C-14 is still being formed than is decaying. This could be so only if the process had BEGUN RECENTLY. Dr. Cook calculates an age for our atmosphere of no more than 10,000 years. -REASON FOR DISCREPANCIES: A PAST COSMIC DISASTER-Plants and animals did not absorb any radiocarbon 14 before the Disaster, Because the band of moisture filtered the rays out before they ever reached the nitrogen in the earth’s atmosphere. That’s why scientists found no C14 in the coal.

Evidence of Civilization Destroyed by Global CataclysmCITY 6,000 FEET UNDER THE SEA-In 1965 a research vessel, "Anton Brunn", was investigating the Nazca Trench, off Peru. At a depth of 6,000 feet a photograph revealed huge upright pillars and walls, some of which seemed to have writing on them. In other nearby locations, apparently artificially shaped stones lay on their sides, as though they had toppled over.

ARTIFACTS UNCOVERED1-In Western Australia in 1975, water drillers near Perth struck a concrete wall 30 feet below the surface.

2-At Aix-en-Provence, France, from 1786 to 1788, coins, stumps of columns and other worked stones, were discovered 50 feet down, below eleven beds of compact limestone.

3-At Blue Lick Springs, Kentucky, underground, below the remains of a prehistoric mastodon, was discovered a pavement of cut-stone tiles.

4-In the autumn of 1868, in a strip of coal mine near Hammondsville, Ohio, at 100 feet below ground was found a large, smooth, slate wall covered with inscriptions similar to hieroglyphics, in lines about three inches apart. Crowds flocked to see, but the slate soon crumbled and the writing was destroyed.

5-In November 1829, in a quarry twelve miles northwest of Philadelphia, at a depth of 69-70 feet below ground, a block of marble was found, which bore an indentation containing the raised alphabet characters 'I' and 'U'. Two years later the discovery appeared in an illustration in the American Journal of Science, vol.19, p.361.

6-In Omaha, Nebraska, about 130 feet underground, coalminers found a carved slab of rock with diamond shapes. In the centre of each diamond was an engraving of a human face (Omaha Daily News, 1897).

7-In 1928 in coal mine No. 5, near Heavener, Oklahoma, at a depth of two miles, miners encountered a wall composed of 12 inch cube concrete blocks polished so that all six sides acted as mirrors. About 100 to 150 yards further down the shaft, the same wall or one very similar was uncovered. That part of the mine was then filled up.

8-Coal was NOT laid down 300 million years ago, but very recently, after civilized man.

9-Huge stone cities, very ancient, with paved streets and tall pyramids choked with forest, have been sighted in the Amazon jungle. climate was more temperate and the rivers drained a fertile area. their alphabetic letters were Phoenician and Greek, 3,000 to 4,000 years ago. the whole Amazon basin was a shallow inland sea that existed AS RECENTLY AS 1200 BC. People wall-papered their houses with thin sheets of beaten gold. The people had fine features. They used gold coinage and operated fleets. Their buildings were of shining white stone. Their cities boasted magnificent plazas, paved streets, ornamented temples, round-topped pyramids, mansions and fountains. They erected lighthouses and used lenses and reflectors, the elements of the telescope. And the cities were walled against the sea of the Maranon (the Amazon Sea). According to native traditions, they used a light source akin to our electric bulb.- South America was well known in antiquity. Before the jungle took over, it was resplendent with great cities. Many ancient traditions speak of an advanced culture which flourished thousands of years ago to the north and west of the Brazilian highlands. Books of wonderfully executed paintings and hieroglyphics have been found among naked Panos savages of the deep Peruvian forests near the gorge of the Ucayle, in the Amazon headwaters, in the eighteenth century. The Indians explained that the books, handed down, contained a history of events in the days of their ancestors. The pages of fine cotton, in external appearance resembling modern quarto leaves, were bound with a cover, glued together and fastened by agave threads. One of these ancient books was acquired by Fray Narcissus Gilbar and sent to Lima to be inspected by P. Cisneros, compiler of a periodical called El Mercurio Peruano.

Maps show Antarctica firstly free of ice, secondly, the centre of Antarctica beginning to fill with ice (rivers and fjords being shown where today mile-thick glaciers flow) and thirdly, Antarctica after it had become mostly covered in ice. The U.S. Hydrographic Office declared one of these maps to be over 5,000 years old (Gray, Dead Men’s Secrets, pp.24-30). Similar ancient maps show Greenland before it was covered in ice; glacial actions in the Baltic countries; and northern Europe being covered by the Ice Age glaciation’s furthest advance. They were recording it as it occurred! The map illustrates this interesting fact: Before the final tearing apart of the continents, the Ice Age had begun.[It apparently took very advanced civilization to produce the ancient maps below. The ones handed down were likely copies, but they're nonetheless usually very accurate.]

From the various astronomical references in the Book of Job, different astronomers claim to be able to calculate the time in which Job lived, 2200-2100 BC (Miracle in Stone, pp.203-206). In his Ice Age book, Job recorded that “the waters [of the sea] harden like stone, and the surface of the deep [ocean] is frozen” (Job 38:29,30).

The Zeno map, drawn in 1380 outlines the coasts of Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Scotland, as well as the exact locations of islands. Greenland is shown free of glaciers. Unknown rivers and mountains have since been located in 1947-1949.

The Camerio map of 1502 was formed on a spherical grid.

The Zauche map of 1737 shows Antarctica free of ice. it is shown as two islands. Also shown are islands of the Mid-Atlantic Ridge.

Another map drawn in 1531 by Orontius Fineus indicates that the centre of Antarctica was beginning to fill with ice. It shows rivers and fjords.

The Mercator chart of 1569 depicts only the Antarctic coast uncovered by glaciers.

Another, copied in 1559, the Hadji Ahmed map shows Antarctica and the Pacific coast of the United States with the land bridge that once existed between Siberia and Alaska.

The Andrea Benincasa map (1508) indicates that Northern Europe was being covered by the Ice Age glaciation’s furthest advance.

The Iehudi Ibn ben Zara map of 1487 shows remnants of glaciers in Britain And islands in the Mediterranean and Aegean Seas, now under water.

The Hamy King chart (1502) indicates northern Siberian rivers emptying into the Arctic Ocean now all under ice. It also shows glacial actions in the Baltic countries. What are today huge islands in Southeast Asia are shown on this map joined to land as they once were. The map even shows an ancient Suez Canal!

Ptolemy’s map of the North depicts a glacial sheet advancing across south-central Greenland; and at the same time it shows glaciers retreating from northern Germany and southern Sweden.

The Orontius Fineus map has Antarctica drawn too large, although mountains and other details are accurately presented.

The Gloreanus map (1510) shows not only the exact line of the Atlantic coast of America from Canada to Tierra del Fuego, but also the whole length of the Pacific coast.

The King Jaime World Chart (1502) shows the Sahara Desert as a fertile land with large lakes, rivers and cities.

The Dulcert map of 1339, tracing from Ireland to the Don River of Eastern Europe, shows great precision.

The Hydrographic Office of the Navy verified an ancient chart called the Piri Reis map, that goes back more than 5,000 years. It contains the following:1. The correct locations of South America, Africa, the Caribbean, Spanish, African and South American coasts and even isolated areas, like Cape Verde Island, the Azores, the Canary Islands, as well as topographies of the interiors. 2. The coastline of Queen Maud Land in Antarctica with islands and bays now below the Antarctic ice sheet and a mountain range undiscovered until 1952.3. The Isle of Pines, Andros Island, San Salvador, Jamaica, the mouth of the Amazon and the island of Morajo.4. Greenland, shown as three islands [as it was before glaciation].5. Every mountain range in northern Canada and Alaska.

Dating Methods Inaccuratehttp://beforeus.com-Henry Faul admits: MOST of the ages obtained by the lead/thorium method DISAGREE with the ages of the same minerals computed by other lead methods (Henry Faul, Nuclear Geology). Age estimates on a given geological stratum by different radiometric methods are often quite different. A skeleton from California was estimated at 70,000 years old (by partic acid racemization) (World Archaeology, vol.7, 1975, p.160). In 1981 this age was revised to 8,300 to 9,000 years (by uranium dating) (Science, vol.213, 28 August, 1981, p.1003). In 1983 samples of the same skeleton were dated at 3,500 to 5,000 years (by radiocarbon dating) (Science, vol.220, 17 June, 1983, p.1271).

-In eight separate tests, scientists dated samples of rock – and arrived at ages of 160 million to 3 billion years. These specimens, from Kaupelehu, Hualalai Volcano, Hawaii, were later found to have formed in a lava flow only 168 years earlier, in 1801. (Science, vol.162, p.265. Journal of Geophysical Research, vol.73, p.4601. American Journal of Science, vol.262, p.154).

-Muscle tissue from beneath the scalp of a mummified musk ox in Fairbanks Creek, Alaska, was dated at 24,000 years; hair from a hind limb of the same animal was dated at 7,200 years.

-[Ice cores] In 1942, during World War II, some war planes landed in Greenland. In 1990, they were found covered by 263 feet of ice in 48 years! 263 feet divided by 48 years is ice growth of about 5.5 feet per year. Divide 10,000 feet by 5.5 and it's 1,824 years for ALL of the ice to build up.Note: those planes did not sink into the ice, due to pressure on the ice. The ice had grown OVER them. (http://www.thelostsquadron.com). Cardin saw Many hundreds of layers of ice… dark – light – dark – light, above the airplane. That’s not summer and winter. It’s warm – cold – warm – cold. You can get ten of those in one day. Yet, the scientific elite was still calling them annual rings in 1998 (Scientific American, February 1998, p.82).

Radiometric Dating: Epic Failurehttp://rkbentley.blogspot.com/2014/11/radiometric-dating-epic-failure.htmlMt. St. Helen's erupted in 1980. As far as volcanoes go, it was a rather tame eruption but it was one of the larger ones to happen in this generation. Because of its size and occurrence in our lifetimes, it's been the subject of much scientific inquiry. Dr. Steven Austin, a creationist and PhD geologist, collected rock samples formed in the eruption and had them tested using the potassium/argon dating method. The results on different samples gave ages between .35 (+/- .05) and 2.8 (+/- .6) million years. The known age of the rocks was 10 years old.

These Geological Features Yield Ages of About 4,000 Yearshttp://beforeus.com-INLAND LAKES: lakes of the Great Basin; Albert and Summer lakes in Oregon; Owen Lake in California; Lake Agassiz, the largest glacial lake in North America-RIVER DELTAS: The deltas of the Nile, the Volga, the Mississippi and Bear River on the Alaska-British Columbia border-WATERFALLS: Niagara Falls, Horseshoe Falls, Upper Great Gorge, Niagara River bed-CORAL REEFS: Great Barrier Reef in Queensland, Australia, Pandora Reef-TREES: Sequoia; New Zealand’s Coromandel Peninsula, giant kauri; Bristlecone pine-OLDEST DESERT: Sahara Desert{In 1999, the Potsdam Institute for Climate Research, in Germany said the Sahara Desert is only about 4,000 years old (originating around 2000 BC) (July 15, 1999. Geophysical Research Letters).}-OTHER NATURAL FEATURES: Magnetic reversals, varves, coal, canyons, dense jungles, rock strata, fossils and so on (http://www.beforeus.com/shopcart_ebooks.html).-DATING OF CHINA-DATING OF ROYAL GENEALOGIES [of several European Nations]

EGYPT: Egypt’s monuments themselves do not begin their records before the 19th dynasty. The Byzantine chronicler Constantinus Manasses wrote that the State of Egypt had already lasted 1663 years, [since] 2188 BC. Egypt was anciently known as the land of Khem (i.e. Ham [son of Noah]). Menes and Hermes were two of Ham’s sons. HERMES (CUSH) WAS FOUNDER OF EGYPT’S RELIGION. Chaldean was a diplomatic language in Egypt. “Her”, in Chaldee, is “Ham”, or “Khem”, “the burnt one”. The Egyptian god HOR-us (the sun) is “Her” (“the hot or burning one”). Her-mes means the son of Her (Ham).

DATING OF ATLANTIS: The Azores, of volcanic origin, consist of red, white, and black rock, and contain hot and cold springs, as mentioned by Plato regarding Atlantis. ... If Solon had erroneously translated the symbol for 100 as 1,000, The two symbols in Cretan script are almost identical. Instead of 9,000 years, we would have 900 years before Solon. The disaster would have occurred about 1500 B.C. If the size of the plain were reduced by a factor of ten, to 34 by 23 miles, it would approximate closely the size of the plain of Messara on Crete. An ancient history book, the Oera Linda Boek, dating primarily from AD 803, but added to for 500 years, bears this postscript: “written in Liuwert (Ljuwert) in the 3,499th year after Atland (Atlantis) sank, or 1256, the year of the Christian reckoning.” This historian placed the sinking of Atlantis in 2244 BC (Alec Maclellan, The Lost World of Agharti. 1982, p. 186).

WHAT THE TOLTECS REMEMBERED ABOUT HISTORY: In the sixteenth century, the native Mexican chronicler, Ixtilxochitl in his Relaciones penned a history based on all available pre-Conquest records and legends. ... The Flood came “after the world had existed for 1,716 years” (Francis Hitching, World Atlas of Mysteries. 1978, p.165). This is only a 60 year variation from the figure given in the King James Bible. (Genesis chapter 5)

FLOOD DATE ALSO DEFINED: The Flood ended in 2344 BC. The Great Pyramid independently confirms this date (Stewart, The Mystery of the Great Pyramid, pp 17-19). The star group Aquarius is featured in the astronomy of the Pyramid. Ancient peoples associated AQUARIUS with the waters of the GREAT FLOOD. The pyramid measurements incorporate the length of the new, post-Flood 365¼ day year, and NOT the pre-Flood 360 day year.-The ancient Chinese, Babylonian, Roman, Mayan, Indian and Egyptian calendars were 360 days long. But later, every nation changed its calendar.- DATE OF THE FLOOD - ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE RECORD: We start from a known date in history, the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar in 586 BC. [Make that 399 BC per Dating2 file.] add the years of the kings of Judah after Solomon which totalled 345. 586 + 345 = 931 BC. Solomon reigned for 40 years, his first year was 970 BC. In the fourth year of Solomon’s reign he began to build the house of the Lord (1 Kings 6:1) = 967 BC, the 480th year from the Exodus. 967 + 480 = 1446. From Abraham’s call to sacrifice Isaac until the Exodus was 430 years. The portion of this sojourning spent in Egypt was only 260 years, from 1706 to 1446 BC. The beginning and ending dates of the Great Flood was around 2345 to 2344 BC. 2345 = 1446 + 970 + 931 + 586.

Something Hit the Earth (See http://newgeology.us)AXIS RECOVERY (4,355 YEARS): summer solstices at Stonehenge, Amen Ra, Eodoxus show an exponential curve of recovery of the earth’s axis after a sudden change. The earth’s axis had once been almost upright, but it had suddenly changed to a 26½ degrees tilt, from which it had been wobbling back to its present mean tilt of 23½ degrees (Science Magazine, May 15, 1970). Dodwell concluded that something "struck" the earth at that time, 2345 BC.

GLOBAL CLIMATE WETTER FOR CENTURIES AFTER THE FLOODIn the Middle East prior to 1000 BC large forest trees covered especially the higher elevations. Israel and Jordan supported a wild animal population not unlike that of North Africa. Similar evidence exists for North and South America, Asia and Australia (Jonathan Gray, The Corpse Came Back, chapter 20). And the transition from ice age to the present desert environment took place between 2250 to 2000 BC. (See Appendix 1.)

“SCHOLARS” SABOTAGE ANCIENT DOCUMENTS: The Turin Papyrus was prepared during the late 18th Dynasty of the Pharaohs and included lists of all the kings of every dynasty of ancient Egypt through to the 18th Dynasty. This papyrus was found during a temple excavation in the 19th century. The King of Sardinia carefully preserved it and entrusted it to some “scholars” at Turin for translation. The “scholars” destroyed or hid most of it, apparently because it proved the “LONG dynastic” history of Egypt to be UNTRUE!-The Palermo Stone contained a similar list. “unapproved researchers” can have access to only a few fragments. It is obvious that the stone was broken recently.

Lloyd wrote: Egypt was anciently known as the land of Khem (i.e. Ham [son of Noah]). Menes and Hermes were two of Ham’s sons. HERMES (CUSH) WAS FOUNDER OF EGYPT’S RELIGION. Chaldean was a diplomatic language in Egypt. “Her”, in Chaldee, is “Ham”, or “Khem”, “the burnt one”. The Egyptian god HOR-us (the sun) is “Her” (“the hot or burning one”). Her-mes means the son of Her (Ham).

Where does all this come from?? My understanding is that "Khem" refers to the black soil left behind by the flooding of the Nile.

DATING OF ATLANTIS: The Azores, of volcanic origin, consist of red, white, and black rock, and contain hot and cold springs, as mentioned by Plato regarding Atlantis. ... If Solon had erroneously translated the symbol for 100 as 1,000, The two symbols in Cretan script are almost identical. Instead of 9,000 years, we would have 900 years before Solon. The disaster would have occurred about 1500 B.C. If the size of the plain were reduced by a factor of ten, to 34 by 23 miles, it would approximate closely the size of the plain of Messara on Crete. An ancient history book, the Oera Linda Boek, dating primarily from AD 803, but added to for 500 years, bears this postscript: “written in Liuwert (Ljuwert) in the 3,499th year after Atland (Atlantis) sank, or 1256, the year of the Christian reckoning.” This historian placed the sinking of Atlantis in 2244 BC (Alec Maclellan, The Lost World of Agharti. 1982, p. 186).

The erroneous-translation-by-a-factor-of-10 idea was invented to prop up the ridiculous theory that Plato's Atlantis was the tiny Mediterranean island of Santorini. Plato's proposed location for Atlantis (i.e. in the vicinity of the Azores) and time of its destruction (i.e. circa 9600 BCE) make complete sense in light of the geological evidence.

Plato's proposed location makes sense owing to the fact that Azores Plateau is located at a 3-way intersection of the North American, Eurasian and African tectonic plates. During the Ice Age, the huge ice sheets covering northern Europe and Canada would have pressed down on the glacier-covered areas of the Eurasian and North American plates respectively; this pressure would have caused isostatic rebound in the non-covered parts of those plates, both across the plates and by channeling magma pressure down the Mid-Atlantic Ridge toward the aforementioned 3-way plate intersection. At the same time, the African plate was (and still is) pushing northwards into the Eurasian plate. The combined effects of these geological pressures would have been sufficient to raise a highly fertile but unstable landmass of a size comparable to modern-day Turkey (as per Plato's description), primarily composed of the Azores Plateau.

The African plate was actually being forced to push into the Eurasian plate in a twisting north-eastward fashion, because the Azores Plateau was acting as an obstacle to the northwestern part of the plate; this "twisting" meant that the northwestern part of the African plate eventually started to pull away from the Eurasian plate, resulting in a loss of geological pressure critical to keeping a large Atlantic island above sea level.When the European and North American ice-sheets started to melt towards the end of the Pleistocene, the previously glaciated areas of those continents started to undergo isostatic rebound, resulting in a corresponding subsidence of the previously unglaciated parts of their respective plates as well as a loss in pressure being channeled down the Mid-Atlantic Ridge towards the Azores Plateau. In other words, Atlantis was hit with a geological triple-whammy (isostatic rebound, loss of channeled pressure down the Mid-Atlantic Ridge, and the twisting movement of Africa) about 12,000 years ago, causing the large island to sink beneath the ocean surface in a geological instant. Over the next 10+ millenia the former island continued to subside more gradually (but still very quickly in geological terms) to its present level, hence Plato's reference - based on much older accounts - to a "shallow muddy shoal" rendering the Atlantic Ocean "impassable" in the general area where Atlantis had formerly stood.

Noah's Son Ham in Egypt & Destruction of AtlantisWhere does that come from?, Pi asks. From Jonathan Gray at http://beforeus.com, I think. So does the theory on Atlantis. Your theory on Atlantis sounds plausible too, but Gray's theory seems a little better supported so far.

After the Cataclysmhttp://beforeus.com(Note to Kevin: No, I don't think I accept much of Hancock's ideas, just some of them.)-NOAH'S ARK. The Great Pyramid’s latitude (30 degrees 00 minutes north) is precisely an “ark’s length and height” south of the remains of Noah’s Ark (39 degrees 26 minutes north) in Turkey (Persian Triangle Mystery).-[ANCIENT] GLOBAL EXPLORATION AND SETTLEMENTSurviving today are portions of ancient world maps drawn by surveying parties before, during and after the Ice Age (See Appendix 2). At least two - the Piri Reis and Reinal - were based on a circular projection with the focal point in Egypt.(a) the Great Flood (2345 to 2344 BC),(b) the founding of Egypt (2250 to 2188 BC) and(c) the Great Pyramid (2144 BC)-EGYPT.“INCH” AND “CUBIT” LINK. In Egypt, the royal cubit of 20.6 inches is well known. The British inch is derived from the pyramid inch. One pyramid inch equals 1.0011 British inches, one 500-millionth part of the earth’s polar axis. The royal Egyptian cubit and the inch have a relationship called the Golden Ratio.-A wreck in Turkey, believed to be the Ark, has seven examples of this .618 ratio (Jonathan Gray, The Ark Conspiracy, Chapter 8). The pre-Flood cubit used in the Ark was taken to Egypt to become the royal Egyptian cubit. It was Mizraim, Noah’s grandson, who founded Egypt.-The Great Pyramid accurately stands in the centre of the land surface of the earth as it NOW exists and marks both the longitude and latitude at which there is more land and less sea than at any other coordinates on earth. -WHY WERE THE PYRAMID’S BUILDERS FORGOTTEN? 1. THE BUILDERS WERE NOT EGYPTIAN. 2. HISTORICAL ACCURACY WAS NOT A PRIORITY. 3. AMID ENVIRONMENTAL TRAUMA, MUCH CULTURE WAS FORGOTTEN. There was a sudden, dramatic drop in the human life span, as recorded by the ancient Chinese and the Hebrews (See The Corpse Came Back, chapter 18). Much earlier knowledge was quickly lost. The few Flood survivors, although bringing with them knowledge from the pre-Flood world, were too few in number to put most of it to practical use immediately. Population growth was rapid, so Two hundred years was all it needed [to re-establish civilization].-BABYLON. -Sumerian tradition preserved two lists of “kings” who reigned before the Flood. One contained eight names, as does the family tree of Cain, [and] the other ten names, as does the family tree of Genesis 5. After Alexander the Great had defeated Darius in 331 BC, he journeyed to Babylon and his scholars learned about the 1903 years of astronomical observations from the Chaldeans of Babylon. That placed the founding of Babylon at 2234 BC (Martin Anstey, The Romance of Bible Chronology. 1913, p.92). This is uncannily close to the biblical date for the Tower of Babel (c. 2244 BC).-TIAHUANACO.Titicaca, at 12,000 feet altitude, is the highest navigable lake in the world. 4,000 years ago Titicaca was on sea level. At 11,500 feet, a whitish streak runs along the side of the mountain range for over 300 miles, composed of the calcified remains of marine plants, formerly on the seashore. In fact, many lakes up in the Andes region are completely salt. A watermark of salt along the Titicaca lake shore now runs at an angle to the water level. On the beach of this lake high in the mountains, there are seashells as well as traces of seaweed. Even today, various sea creatures (including sea horses) survive in the lake. Only a few intermediate surf lines can be detected, so the elevation could not have proceeded gradually.-Traces of a sizeable city lie at the southern side of the lake. Of 400 acres of ruins, only about ten percent have been excavated. endless agricultural terraces, now abandoned, rise as high as 18,400 feet above sea level, and continue up under the snow. Such an abundance of cornfields must have supported a huge population. After the disaster, the populace lay buried in gullies that had become mass graves, covered by silt.-The remains of an ocean quay is known as the Puma Punka, near the stadium of Tiahuanaco. One of the construction blocks from which the pier was fashioned weighs an estimated 440 tons. One wharf is big enough to take hundreds of ships.-The Subterranean Temple, the Kalasasaya [and] the Akapana are precisely oriented to the cardinal directions of the PRESENT DAY. Tiahuanaco’s buildings are not oriented to the pre-Flood axis, but are exactly oriented to the compass points of today’s post-2345 BC world, with its new axial tilt. The depictions among the ruins of Tiahuanaco of numerous now extinct animals are readily explainable.-The construction and use of reed boats on Lake Titicaca are identical to the reed boats of ancient Egypt. Many of the building blocks in Tiahuanaco are held together by large copper clamps shaped like an I. Others (now dismantled) were held together by silver rivets, similar to the Egyptian ruins on Elephantine Island on the Nile. Copper trepanning instruments of Tiahuanaco (for opening the cranium) were identical to those used by the Egyptians – as were the methods used! They point to direct contact between Tiahuanaco and ancient Egypt, as contemporary civilizations. A French engineer came upon an ancient carved rock hidden by dense jungle close to a river, which recorded the journey of an early Egyptian priest to what is now Bolivia (the land of Tiahuanaco). The inscription gave directions to silver and gold mines.-Mountain Forming Witnessed.Various tribes of the Americas witnessed new mountains being raised and others flattened (Karl Brugger, The Chronicle of Akakor. 1977). A recent example was during an earthquake off the northern tip of Sumatra on December 26, 2004, the sea bottom in the Straits of Malacca uplifted almost 4,000 feet in only about 3 minutes. The depth was cut from 4,060 feet to 105 feet (Star newspaper, Kuala Lumpur, January. 13, 2005, quoting a report in the shipping journal Portsworld). Sonar images from British navy ship HMS Scott showed the massive uplift of a large area 10 kilometres wide and up to 1.5 kilometres high (4,800 feet plus).

Hey Lloyd,I'm happy to join this discussion of catastrophism, a subject I've spent a few decades studying. For newcomers to the forum or this thread, I taught Science and Math for nearly 40 years and am now [semi] retired. I graduated in early 70's from the Univ of Washington with major in Earth Science and minor in Math.

My first inroad into catastrophism was in a geology class, where the principles of [standard model] stratigraphy were laid out. I learned [first confusedly, then to my amazement] that based on the alleged "law" of superposition, and given the "flatness" of major sedimentary formations worldwide, there must have been hundreds of millions of years of mountain-building followed by long epochs of erosion, leaving the world's topography pretty much flat, and that this repeated itself dozens of times in the long geologic history of the earth. This of course led to the standard model conclusion that deeper strata were ages older than those found closer to the surface. Exceptions to this rule were explained by fanciful flights into "overthrusting", inverted sedimentary sequences due to folding, faulting and other gradual processes... I questioned, where is the evidence for these long epochs of geologic activity, or current examples of these processes at work today? The answer: this is the missing story found in the hiatal periods between the strata. Without this missing data, the geologic history becomes a story of repeated massive episodes of flooding on a worldwide scale.

About this same time I also studied under a famous paleontologist, who unlike any of my former teachers actually laid out the evidence for evolution so clearly as to demonstrate the regular pattern and preponderance of missing transitional forms throughout the fossil record, I was appalled. My question: If different phyla/classes/families of animals [and plants, etc.] supposedly evolved slowly and gradually through time, shouldn't most of the fossils be of the transitional types? The answer: conditions for fossilization are very rare geologically speaking, so we only have a small sampling of the evolutionary story [this was Darwin's enigma and continues to the present... the missing story of change happened [quite conveniently] during those hiatal periods between the strata. But there are millions of fossils found in museums all over the world, often used to try to thwart genuine challenges to the concept of evolution [more specifically macro-evolution]... why is it that the vast majority of those fossils are identifiable by currently existing groups of animals [and plants, etc.]? There are more variations within families of organism existing today than there are transitional features found in [supposedly billions of years of] the fossil record! So without this missing data, the fossil record becomes one of not change, but of mass destruction/extinction of creatures in the past. Natural selection, well documented as it is as an information reducing process based upon [not producing] variation leading ultimately to speciation and extinction, no longer holds as a mechanism for phylogeny.

Putting these two dilemmas together, I realized that the extant evidence actually points to catastrophic events predominating the geologic history of the earth. I started by questioning the presumptions of radiometric dating, not the least of which is that without knowing the initial conditions of the parent elements, the ratio of daughter elements is inconclusive at best. I began to research catastrophism, encountered Velikovsky early on; began reading some of the early creationist materials, and questioning the years of educational training as a kind of brainwashing... I've since come to question pretty much all of earth history as a habit of thought, joining conclusions to their logical premises, recognizing that in science, as in other systems of thought, one's conclusions stem [however logically or not] from one's assumptions, which I prefer to term "faith base". For example, if one assumes that the initial state of naturally occurring uranium were that of 50/50 mixture with lead [isotopes do not help this dilemma], as is observed throughout the earth and solar system, then a natural conclusion would be that the earth was very recently formed. Though inspired by Velikovsky and some of the early creationists, I now look askance at some of their work, and have developed a hybrid historical geology framework that recognizes the possibility of the earth being relatively "young" and having a relatively recent cataclysm or series of flood events on a global scale. Earth Science is a great framework for this, as the sciences of astronomy, meteorology, oceanography, and geology are so interwoven in their scope and interdependent in mechanism.

As to biblical reference, I find the record to be well-documented and exceptionally useful taken at face value, in the framework of the original languages, and interpreted in the light of Hebrew/Chaldean culture. I find that the Bible's detractors have an agenda to push, and that there is no fundamental struggle between the biblical record and science, only between metaphysical and naturalistic/materialistic premises; and that when all the evidence is taken into account [and subjected to vigorous review] one can use the biblical record along side of archaeology and other sciences to construct a valid framework for Earth history. From this finding, I constructed a 20-hour seminar in catastrophic earth history which I've presented on several occasions. Since this is the Electric Universe forum, I will simply add that many of the premises of the Saturn theory conflict with my views, but some do not... many of the alternate representations mentioned in this thread are harmonious with my thinking, and some are not... I am open to questions, debate, dialogue, and to changing my mind, and hope to contribute and grow from the ongoing discussion of this thread topic.

Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.

Just have to say that I graduated in Earth Sciences at Flinders Uni here in Adelaide, doing applied maths and computer modelling in the early 70's. And I nearly completely agree with all that webo has written.

Well, I'm eager to hear what you guys disagree with from what I've posted here and what your reasons are for disagreeing. I consider what I've posted as mostly very plausible. The info is mostly from Jonathan Gray at beforeus.com and other sites. He mentioned that the Earth appeared to have gotten hit by something some 4,000 years ago, which moved its axis from 90 degrees, the vertical axis position, to 26 1/2 degrees less than 90 and which has more gradually come back to its present position of 23 1/2 degrees less than 90. I don't think Gray mentioned what might have hit the Earth at that time, but that's where Mike Fisher comes in with his newgeology.us site. He determined what did hit us and where and how big it was and that it broke up the supercontinent, producing rapid continental drift. Webb has said that rapid continental drift too some months to move the continents to near their present positions, but Fisher says it took only 26 hours. I think Fisher is closer to the truth, but I'd like to hear why you think it took a few months, Gordon. Fisher thinks the impact and continental drift occurred about 10,000 years ago, but I don't know what he bases that on. I think it probably happened 4,300 some years ago, as Gray has said, which comes from several sources, but mainly the Bible. I don't think there is an inerrant Bible and I wouldn't count on the very first Bible having been inerrant either, but the present Bible seems to be nearly inerrant, despite the errors.

Jonathan Gray has a big database on very ancient information. However he seems to be into planet X and not Velikovsky, although I have not read his books. A decade or two ago I wrote to him about his view that the constellations were named after an ancient prophecy foretelling the coming of a Deliverer. I wrote that virgin birth, serpents, goats, etc, were actually seen in the sky in those positions and that is why all parts of the world gave the same name to these positions in the sky. He wrote back but dismissed this idea and that was our last communication.

Although his evidence for an ancient pre-catastrophe civilization is spectacular, his thoughts on the mechanism of the cataclysm leave me cold, although, again, I have not read all of it. But well worth looking into. Cheers, Mo

Jesus, Born of a Virgin (Virgo?)Mo, that's interesting info about the constellations having been named after images seen in the ancient sky. I got the idea a few years ago that the biblical prophecy that the Savior would be born of a Virgin might have meant that he would be born in the Sign of the Virgin, because I read at that time an interesting article online that gave good reasons to believe from the Bible that Jesus was born on or about September 11. And I knew that that's in the month when the Sun is in Virgo. As soon as I realized it was Virgo I got the idea that that might be what was meant by being born of a Virgin. I still consider it possible that his mother was actually a virgin, since science should be able to accomplish such a feat eventually too, since there is already asexual reproduction. But I'm inclined to think it was referring to the sign of the Virgin.

Then I found material online that said that the biblical prophecies about End Times describe what will be seen in the sky at that time and someone used sky chart software to see when those descriptions might occur. Here in my notes are what was found._The Signs of the Book of Revelation-Amos 4:13,5:18-20,8:9 refers to a solar eclipse that would happen in the end times-Rev. 6:12 solar eclipse and lunar eclipse in Jerusalem [will occur] on August 2 and August 16, 2027 A.D.-Revelation 12:1 the sky over Jerusalem [will show]:-the constellation Virgo is standing on her head; the moon is under her feet; Virgo is clothed in the sun-Mars symbol of male sex is located where Virgo’s womb would be[These will occur] over Jerusalem at sunset on August 5, 2027 -Revelation 12:5 a clear description of the birth of Jesus Christ

So that reference to Virgo, the Virgin, reinforced my suspicion that the virgin referred to the Constellation, Virgo.

Lloyd, consider this about virgin birth. A planet or moon that was just a point of light in the sky interacted with another planet that was bigger or more electrically active. During the interaction the double layers of both bodies lit up and as they drew apart these double layers remained lit up.

So viewed from Earth a body in the sky would have lit up suddenly and then another body would have appeared to come out of that body. And because the double layers are probably thousands of Kilometers from their planet it would be very noticable and the story would be of a virgin birth. So that part in the sky would have this virgin birth associated with it. And cultures all around the world would have the same interpretation.

So the virgin birth in the bible was already an old story from many different cultures as are most of the stories in the bible. Like a whale looks like a comet, etc. So whether there was an actual Jesus or not most of the stories related to Jesus are ancient stories.

As for biblical prophecies I think that they are only old stories too, describing ancient events. Sure there is accurate history and the Christ represents consciousness, or more accurately experiencing, and there are associated teachings but the ancient stories were extremely significant to the writers, as they are to us because they point to the terrible survival situations our ancestors went through, and the associated inherited epigenetic changes.