Anders Behring Breivik and the hidden hate of ATS.

Excellent post...as a long standing atheist I support your views completely.... the part of the argument that really gets my goat is the whole "moral
exclusivity" issue..... christianity, (and in fact all religions, except budhism), seems to think that without membership of it's exclusive club we
humans are not capable of being morally upstanding citizens that care about others around us....... quick note..... moral fibre does not come
exclusively from religious teachings... the majority of it is common sense and can be worked out by thinking for yourself.... an alien concept to the
religious among us of course.... and a little scary, but believe me, we ARE responsbile for our actions.... all of them.....

It takes far more courage to be atheist than religious... to believe this universe is governed by chaos and random events takes courage.... yeah..
would be nice to have the safety net of religion, the emotional crutch on which to rely when things get tricky.... but this is no different, in my
eyes, to believing as a child that you have an imaginary friend that is always there for you and will always back you up..... something which we tend
to grow out of at about 8......

"Funny, if I told you that drinking yoghurt made you invisible, you would need all the proof in the world to believe me.... but I tell you that the
book next to your bed was written by a floating deity that created everything, controlled everything, and has complete control over your life.... you
don't seem to need any proof at all......" Sam Harris.

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes
I think that people should ditch the right/left bollocks, and all the other political ideologies which fall inside and outside these categories.

People should just form their own opinions on every relevant political subject, without the need to label themselves or ''fall in line'' with the
other elements of a political ideology which they choose to identify with.
Adopting a particular political wing/philosophy stifles critical and creative thinking on important issues.

I totally agree.... however the problem is that people like to label, they also like to be part of a group.

I posted this on one of the threads the other day

Originally posted by blupblup
I don't care for all that stuff.... I'm just a human being, I have no affiliations.... I don't ally myself with any particular school of thought
or ideology, I just think what I think and do what I do.... if there's a name for it, then cool... call it what you like, I just call it me.

And I stand by it.... people think just because you are anti war, like to help those less fortunate, don't have an issue with foreigners and don't
want to tell people how to dress or live their lives.... that you are a bad person.

That you are a left-wing nut?

I don't think of myself as left-wing, that may be what people like to throw around like some insult, that's cool... whatever..... But I really am
just a person, I have both left and right wing views... liberal views, conservative views... all of it, everyone does.... or they should, you adapt,
you listen to all sides and then make your judgement/decision... you empathise, you understand, you compromise.

That's what being human is.

Not picking a side and defending it against the other side.

Nationalism is a lot of the issue.... you're already thinking in terms of us and them and then it leads to xenophobia and racism

Then comes Tribalism, which is much like Racism....

All of these ideals that people hold dear and think of as traditional and decent.... it's just an illusion.

This whole sorry mess is just so ridiculous.

"Collective fear stimulates herd instinct, and tends to produce ferocity toward those who are not regarded as members of the herd." ~ Bertrand
Russell

After re-thinking my statement, I have concluded this:
You're right I am wrong.
So telling you that "Modern day left wingers" are not the same as before is wrong?
How is it that true Federalists and Democrats are long forgotten?
How about the Whig party?
Want to talk about Thomas Paine? (one of my favorite people) COMMON SENSE.
Some people don't have any common sense.
How about the Democratic-Republican party from late 1700's to 1800's?
How it was formed to oppose the Federalists'?
Know about that too right?
Southern Democrats and their opposition of anti-slavery and liberalism?
Geez that side of skid row never got their act together until the New Deal.
Then they called themselves "progressives".

Btw, I am using terms coined by the media.
I don't like using the words left-wing or right-wing....liberal or conservative.
At least from what I've been reading lately.
Because the "conservatives" aren't being very consevative.
Also it seems the liberals can't share either.

I digress.
We don't need hate coming from either side.
There should be no fighting amongst us.
But if you listen to the media in all it's glory, you will become an arguement.

After re-thinking my statement, I have concluded this:
You're right I am wrong.
So telling you that "Modern day left wingers" are not the same as before is wrong?
How is it that true Federalists and Democrats are long forgotten?
How about the Whig party?
Want to talk about Thomas Paine? (one of my favorite people) COMMON SENSE.
Some people don't have any common sense.
How about the Democratic-Republican party from late 1700's to 1800's?
How it was formed to oppose the Federalists'?
Know about that too right?
Southern Democrats and their opposition of anti-slavery and liberalism?
Geez that side of skid row never got their act together until the New Deal.
Then they called themselves "progressives".

Btw, I am using terms coined by the media.
I don't like using the words left-wing or right-wing....liberal or conservative.
At least from what I've been reading lately.
Because the "conservatives" aren't being very consevative.
Also it seems the liberals can't share either.

I digress.
We don't need hate coming from either side.
There should be no fighting amongst us.
But if you listen to the media in all it's glory, you will become an arguement.

Most of what you have just said is perfectly true but not explicit in your original post. Politics has evolved to the extent that most of the core
values held three centuries ago have disappeared (and yet arguably remain as relevant today as ever).

However there appears to be a common denominator in our thoughts - the danger of the MSM - NOTHING can be trusted from any source other than the
original text in today's world - It's sad because it means having to revisit things which you trusted others to have passed on diligently and
honestly - but that is the stage we have now reached.

As for 'Common Sense' - it remains one of the finest works ever written for it's particular time and need. You could argue that if you remove the
'British' from it and replace it with 'TPTB' - then every single word is as important and relevant today as it was then.

Seriously, if I could make a little forum for everyone in this thread to get together and talk on a regular basis, I would. It's so refreshing to
see some like-minded people here on ATS, that are fed up of the hate and the divisions.

You've all been so respectful in understanding my views, and commenting constructively. I really appreciated it.

I just wish the rest of ATS was as enlightened and positive as you lot are. Perhaps then we'd be able to examine conspiracies and sceptically
analyse claims and theories more often, and on a much more constructive basis. Have any of you noticed how the evidence hunting sceptics have
disappeared recently? Phage and others have all become very quiet. Now we know why....

For example - I'd love to examine the conspiracy angle of the Breivik events, but with so much hatred about right now, it's just not worth the
effort or the time.

I think you've missed the point of this thread, including most of the responses, and I don't mean that critically.

Have a re-read and see what you think once you've had a good look through.

The divisions aren't what is being discussed here - it's the need for reconciliation, and constructive discussion about things that could
potentially divide us in a violent fashion. I'm tired of this, and the fact that it's so prevalent on ATS. I think most others on this thread are
in the same boat as well.

I can be at times an absolutely goofy, over the top cheerleader for freedom of speech. That's something that's never going to change.

For one thing - it allows everyone to see exactly what they're dealing with. But more than that - it's everything - it is freedom

It's been pointed out numerous times here at ATS that freedom of speech is not guaranteed - it's not about freedom of speech - it's about
discussion. I have no argument with that - this is a forum. There are rules of conduct we all must follow, the whole point of it (you would think) is
to discuss these subjects intelligently. Back and forth.

Sometimes, it doesn't seem to be about intelligent back and forth when it comes to certain subjects. There are always a few people on either side of
these types of discussions that do a very good job of presenting their views, listening to the other views - and discussing them responsibly and
intelligently

But there is a certain amount of 'filler' in these threads. ATS, if not careful, comes fairly close to becoming a dumping ground for blatant
propaganda and bigoted rhetoric.

Trying to have an intelligent discussion about these sensitive issues is most times just like the 'intelligent' discussion going on in the video
posted above. It's all about the platform, the chance to spew - not at all about an intelligent exchange of ideas or information

As a registered conservative and life long atheist am I still allowed to post a comment?...J/K

It is important to remind oneself of the limitations the all too human trait of trying to apply an overly simplistic or obviously misfit label to the
complex and unfamiliar in an attempt to quantify the unknown or uncomfortable with familiar titles.

The problem I have is this.

ATS is NOT dealing with its' hatred. We all have it. I have it with my views about right-wing and religious people.

I believe hate is a very strong word.

Using ATS as an example, I disagree with some who post here, dislike a few and actually pity a very few (which could be as bad in its own way) however
I do not, and could not possibly hate anyone for any imaginable transgression I could in any way foresee anyone ever committing on an internet
forum.

This is my fear, I desperately want to let go of my hatred, as it's beginning to get to me. But I can't - because what if one day another Breivik
appears outside my door? I'm going to need every ounce of my hatred then. Where do we go from here?

I see from your Avatar you are from the U.K. which is an unfortunate detail in this particular instance.

There is an old American axiom passed down by the religious right from father to child in some parts of the country.

Simply put...

"God made man, Smith and Wesson made them equal"

No need for hatred of any kind, only the need for a half dozen 200 grain semi-wadcutter hollow points, an unencumbered trigger finger and the will to
live.

Originally posted by The Revenant
I just wish the rest of ATS was as enlightened and positive as you lot are. Perhaps then we'd be able to examine conspiracies and sceptically analyse
claims and theories more often, and on a much more constructive basis. Have any of you noticed how the evidence hunting sceptics have disappeared
recently? Phage and others have all become very quiet. Now we know why....

ATS used to be like that, but they sold out unfortunately.
They would rather have quantity over quality and from a business sense, I don't blame them... but it doesn't help those of us who want to discuss, who
want to get along and learn and challenge each other and have fun.

It's true.... you see racial hatred spouted everywhere, people inciting violence and hatred.... and it gets left where it is and nobody does
anything.... yet if someone makes a post saying that Hemp is the best resource for clothing and paper, then the threads get closed because of drugs
talk?

There are Muslim hate threads all through the Politics and Social Issues forums, but start a thread about a supposed Christian terrorist act, and show
frustration and fear about Christianity... and it goes into the RANT forum in BTS, supporting the idea that it's acceptable and understandable to hate
Muslims, but if you hate Christians, you're just ranting.

Spot on again...

Also freeborn made a good thread about a documentary/series about the life of Mohammed, was very interesting and a discussion ensued on the thread,
very interesting.

First, thanks for starting this thread as the same things have been bothering me as well. There was a thread about a month or so back (I can't find
the thread now but) it was a real "eye-opener" as to hate some on here feel. It was something about Mexicans migrating to the U.S. Some of the
responses were so vile, I was almost in tears. And the worse part some of the post were by self-proclaimed Christians. Things like electric fences,
crocodile filled moats, obstacle courses and such. It's so easy for some to sit in their ivory towers and fancy themselves above those who don't
believe as they do, look like them, or have an accent that's different. Honestly, some of the things I read about what "they" would do to fellow
human beings is just beyond sad. I just wish we could all co-exist and be respectful of each other, but I guess that will never happen.

Originally posted by 2012srb
All I see going on here is a call for suppression of ideologies.

No. I see it as a call for manners. Liberal & Conservative, Left & Right are genuine states of mind, and science is showing us that we may well be
hard-wired for those tendencies that we use to self-identify. Debate is good, but extremism is destructive. That should be a no-brainer, but when we
see media types exhorting their flock towards actual hatred of the other...well, folks ask how Rwanda, Bosnia, etc can happen.

I found myself in the odd position today of defending American right-wingers to my daughter, explaining that a lot of what comes out as unreasonable
treatment of their fellows is actually based upon constitutional concerns. Like, that it is not that they don't care about those who are less
prosperous and don't have health care, but that they feel it's against the constitution for the federal government to deal with it.

I know this because it was explained to me by some ATS members...I don't agree with it, but I now have a measure of understanding because a few of us
dropped the rhetoric and talked, instead. Good model.

I'm over politics. Too much arguing, lying and deceiving happening on both sides to actually know where you stand when you associate yourself with
the left or the right. Life is too short .The best thing you can do is be prepared for the worst and hope for the best.

This Psycho is a prime example of someone who allowed his thought process to be infected to the point of mental illness. He was consumed with hate. I
will say that associating him with french toast or pancakes does not make anyone who eats breakfast evil. People are smarter than that. He was just a
sick puppy, plain and simple.

Originally posted by blupblup
I don't care for all that stuff.... I'm just a human being, I have no affiliations.... I don't ally myself with any particular school of thought or
ideology, I just think what I think and do what I do.... if there's a name for it, then cool... call it what you like, I just call it me.

It looks like we share the same thoughts on this.

Come to think of it, we should give this political approach a name, form a group with people who share this same view point, and then react angrily,
indignantly and mockingly towards anyone who challenges or criticises our way of thinking.

Originally posted by blupblup
I don't think of myself as left-wing, that may be what people like to throw around like some insult, that's cool... whatever..... But I really am just
a person, I have both left and right wing views... liberal views, conservative views... all of it, everyone does.... or they should, you adapt, you
listen to all sides and then make your judgement/decision... you empathise, you understand, you compromise.

Same here.

That's another worrying side to the left/right divide. People who are caught up in it see you make one point, which they consider to be left or right,
and they go bulldozing in assuming that you must be a loony leftie or rabid rightie ! It's that uncritical thought process, and the eagerness to
pigeonhole and label others, which creates the incendiary ''us vs them'' mentality which is so worrying and dangerous.

Despite what people are saying about the supposed drop in the standard of discourse on ATS ( probably looking through rose-tinted spectacles ), I have
to say it's a lot better on this kind of thing than many other forums.

On some other forums which I frequent, when I post my views on one topic, half of them think I'm a reincarnation of Hitler, and then when I post my
views on another topic, the other half think I'm Lenin's lovechild.

In my view,
Leftism and rightism are both viewpoints,
these viewpoints change between different social strata.
So in effect we have proletariat leftism, proletariat rightism,
bourgeois leftism, and bourgeois rightism.

I'd say Mr. Breivik stems from a white aristocratic bourgeois right paradigm.
Culture and race are also factors as you can see.

In a nut shell, In his view, white culture is under threat of annihilation in Europe due to
multicultural policies. He views Communists as the perpetrators of
multiculturalism and immigrants as the invaders and destroyers of said culture.

He mentioned that only the future would understand what he has done,
I can explain to you what he means. He went in to a political leftist camp
and slaughtered countless innocent kids, why did he do this?
He believes that he has eliminated high profile leftist leader's kids,
hence preventing leftism from progressing in the future.
After all, we give the future to our children, we also pass along ideology.
So in effect, he justified his killings by rationalizing that he is saving
Norway by killing off future communist leaders.

That's his train of thought, as best as I can analyze anyways.

We can have very good conversations here on ATS,
I welcome any mental stimulation. I'm a centrist,
so I tend to argue against both rightists and leftists.

I think you are being taken by the propaganda. Yes I think you will agree the right has moved very far right and you probly scratched your head and
said I can see it but it seems nobody else can. Well thats where the right winng propaganda plays in. Fox news is part of the far right but they say
there fair and balanced which makes you think of the middle. They created a fake tea party and picked thee most far right possible to make them seem
in the middle. The put on Glenn Beck and he draws on his chalk board where he thinks the middle is and makes it seem all those people who seem so far
to the right are in the middle. Now you are starting to doubt your self if your in the middle or not because the right moved so far. Should you become
right wing to make it seem yyour in middle or should you be yourself and not be over come by propaganda and think and do what they want which is move
right.

And there is a new way of creating a political group and it does not have to do with finding people you agree with. Its a political group created by
people who hate the same person and they hide there views on anything except hate that person or that thing. Thats not a political group that is a
lynch mob of hate. The tea party was turned this way after it started by the Koch Brothers who had a agenda. That philosphy came from Ayn Rand.

Excellent thread. I do not have the education to write so eloquently as I'm sure some of you know by now. But the sentiments expressed are just how I
feel lately. So easy to hate and disrespect, as we see here, another internet forum. I've actually let it get to me a few times and realized I have
to learn to walk away as it were. Some threads IMHO are just hate filled chatter that leads to nowhere fast. That being said I still love coming to
this site regularly. Like everything in life, I believe in the yin and yang, the good and bad. Even the hate mongerers can sometimes teach us a thing,
even if nobody realizes until later.

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