Ian, the two cylinders are [fueling stations]. GFS = Gasoline Fueling Station? These are usually located equally in the catwalks around the flight deck on US carriers of the time. They would definitely be there as built.

I would imagine the reason for so many reproducers was the sheer noise during flight operations made it difficult to hear.

Looking forward to seeing the completed drawing.

EDIT: Not foam generators. I jumped in without checking. My bad.

Ian, the two cylinders are [fueling stations]. GFS = Gasoline Fueling Station? These are usually located equally in the catwalks around the flight deck on US carriers of the time. They would definitely be there as built.

I would imagine the reason for so many reproducers was the sheer noise during flight operations made it difficult to hear.

Looking forward to seeing the completed drawing.

EDIT: Not foam generators. I jumped in without checking. My bad.

Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:12 am

Ian Roberts

Post subject:

Re: Calling all USS Independence class (CVL) fans

Yes, well aware of the fact these are different ships and different time frames. I only have a few clear photos of Princeton, so I started looking at different ships to try to get an idea for what was being shown on the TFW plans. This has been helpful in the past to identify arrangements if a sister ship had the same configuration, but the subject ship has no clear photos or close ups. In this case I'm hoping someone can shed some light on this position on the ship to understand exactly what was located here on Princeton. I never fully trust drawings (even the TFW stuff) and always try to find photos to verify whatever I'm drawing, hence my difficulty here.

Yes, well aware of the fact these are different ships and different time frames. I only have a few clear photos of Princeton, so I started looking at different ships to try to get an idea for what was being shown on the TFW plans. This has been helpful in the past to identify arrangements if a sister ship had the same configuration, but the subject ship has no clear photos or close ups. In this case I'm hoping someone can shed some light on this position on the ship to understand exactly what was located here on Princeton. I never fully trust drawings (even the TFW stuff) and always try to find photos to verify whatever I'm drawing, hence my difficulty here.

Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:28 pm

DavidP

Post subject:

Re: Calling all USS Independence class (CVL) fans

you do realize the last date was Nov 6 1950 & 2 previous dates before that before you get Nov 8 1944 on that 1st sheet of the Booklet, don't you?

you do realize the last date was Nov 6 1950 & 2 previous dates before that before you get Nov 8 1944 on that 1st sheet of the Booklet, don't you?

Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:05 pm

Ian Roberts

Post subject:

Re: Calling all USS Independence class (CVL) fans

Another one for you guys - I'm stumped by what "G.F.S." stands for in the CVL-26 booklet of general plans (see attached).

Attachment:

unknown.png [ 286.08 KiB | Viewed 1793 times ]

This is in the forward-most area of the starboard galleries. The TFW plans of Princeton don't label anything in this location, despite the plans clearly showing some equipment in this location. The only thing that's actually labeled is the life ring with light - the rest is just drawn in without any labels (see below).

Attachment:

unknown (1).png [ 54.63 KiB | Viewed 1793 times ]

For what it's worth, the TFW plans of Princeton show this area with a venturi shield that isn't there in the January 1944 refit photos. I'm also doubtful of the "door" indicated on the TFW plans. Photos of Cowpens at the 1945 refit show very obvious firefighting gear in this location, but no door. This brings me back to the "G.F.S." in the BOGP from Monterey - any idea what this could be? None of the abbreviations in the BOGP explain what it is. Here is a photo from the Cowpens refit in 1945 (yes, I appreciate this is not necessarily representative of the fit of Princeton in 1944, but this is all I've got to go off ) Is the box bracketed to the bulwark on this position the sound "reproducer" mentioned on the BOGP?

From the above photo, it looks to me like this position was used for firefighting gear (I assume the rolled up hose on the hangar is a firehose). The two standing cylinders are new to me (this is my first time really digging in on a carrier) - but I assume these are related to firefighting (maybe pumps of some sort?) due to their proximity to the hose reel. I found this photo of CVL-30 postwar that seems to show a similar arrangement (any clarification on what this is would be really helpful):

Attachment:

cvl-30.png [ 57.42 KiB | Viewed 1793 times ]

Any help is, as always, much appreciated. To summarize my areas of confusion:

1) What is the "G.F.S." mentioned in the BOGP of CVL-26?2) What is located in the fwd most gallery position on the CVLs in general?3) What is the box bracketed to the bulwark in the photo of Cowpens attached? If it's a reproducer - can someone shed some light on why carriers have so many reproducers? I assume this is because flight deck operations require a lot of coordination but again, I'm an amateur when it comes to CVs...

Another one for you guys - I'm stumped by what "G.F.S." stands for in the CVL-26 booklet of general plans (see attached).

[attachment=3]unknown.png[/attachment]

This is in the forward-most area of the starboard galleries. The TFW plans of Princeton don't label anything in this location, despite the plans clearly showing some equipment in this location. The only thing that's actually labeled is the life ring with light - the rest is just drawn in without any labels (see below).

[attachment=2]unknown (1).png[/attachment]

For what it's worth, the TFW plans of Princeton show this area with a venturi shield that isn't there in the January 1944 refit photos. I'm also doubtful of the "door" indicated on the TFW plans. Photos of Cowpens at the 1945 refit show very obvious firefighting gear in this location, but no door. This brings me back to the "G.F.S." in the BOGP from Monterey - any idea what this could be? None of the abbreviations in the BOGP explain what it is. Here is a photo from the Cowpens refit in 1945 (yes, I appreciate this is not necessarily representative of the fit of Princeton in 1944, but this is all I've got to go off :) ) Is the box bracketed to the bulwark on this position the sound "reproducer" mentioned on the BOGP?

[attachment=1]unknown (2).png[/attachment]

From the above photo, it looks to me like this position was used for firefighting gear (I assume the rolled up hose on the hangar is a firehose). The two standing cylinders are new to me (this is my first time really digging in on a carrier) - but I assume these are related to firefighting (maybe pumps of some sort?) due to their proximity to the hose reel. I found this photo of CVL-30 postwar that seems to show a similar arrangement (any clarification on what this is would be really helpful):

[attachment=0]cvl-30.png[/attachment]

Any help is, as always, much appreciated. To summarize my areas of confusion:

1) What is the "G.F.S." mentioned in the BOGP of CVL-26?2) What is located in the fwd most gallery position on the CVLs in general?3) What is the box bracketed to the bulwark in the photo of Cowpens attached? If it's a reproducer - can someone shed some light on why carriers have so many reproducers? I assume this is because flight deck operations require a lot of coordination but again, I'm an amateur when it comes to CVs...

Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:51 pm

Ian Roberts

Post subject:

Re: Calling all USS Independence class (CVL) fans

Hmmm, let me try it by attachment -- see below.

Attachments:

Untitled-1.jpg [ 126.77 KiB | Viewed 1839 times ]

Hmmm, let me try it by attachment -- see below.

Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:33 am

DavidP

Post subject:

Re: Calling all USS Independence class (CVL) fans

your link does not work.

your link does not work.

Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:32 pm

Ian Roberts

Post subject:

Re: Calling all USS Independence class (CVL) fans

Gents - on page 15 of this thread Tracy White attached a photo of the forward 40mm gun tub and associated director on CVL-22. I'm working on a drawing of CVL-23, using the Floating Drydock "TFW" plans as a guideline, and can't decipher the structure under the forward 20mm tubs in this area. There appears to be a walkway under the tubs (this is visible in great detail on the 1945 refit photos of COWPENS), but the TFW plans show a confusing series of structures here. The plan views of this platform indicate it extending out from the Mark 51 director foundation to meet the 20mm tubs.

My question: did CVL-23 have the same arrangement as CVL-22 during this period? If so, I will draw this area based on Tracy's photo of CVL-22. If not I'm back to the drawing board

See here for the outboard profile segment in question on the TFW CVL-23 plan. I'm baffled by this truly.

Gents - on page 15 of this thread Tracy White attached a photo of the forward 40mm gun tub and associated director on CVL-22. I'm working on a drawing of CVL-23, using the Floating Drydock "TFW" plans as a guideline, and can't decipher the structure under the forward 20mm tubs in this area. There appears to be a walkway under the tubs (this is visible in great detail on the 1945 refit photos of COWPENS), but the TFW plans show a confusing series of structures here. The plan views of this platform indicate it extending out from the Mark 51 director foundation to meet the 20mm tubs.

My question: did CVL-23 have the same arrangement as CVL-22 during this period? If so, I will draw this area based on Tracy's photo of CVL-22. If not I'm back to the drawing board :)

See [url=https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/426426490364624907/607050068180074498/unknown.png]here[/url] for the outboard profile segment in question on the TFW CVL-23 plan. I'm baffled by this truly.

Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:18 pm

Richt03

Post subject:

Re: Calling all USS Independence class (CVL) fans

Hi out there. I am wanting to add the CVL Independence into my FLAT TOP board game by making her an excellent silhouette. Can someone out there please send me a line drawing in high resolution JPEG scan of the light carrier Independence? (The Squadron magazine might have a good line drawing of her; I purchased Squadron's "Carrier Escorts" book recently for this reason.)

I sure will appreciate this.

~ Rod H

Hi out there. I am wanting to add the CVL Independence into my FLAT TOP board game by making her an excellent silhouette. Can someone out there please send me a line drawing in high resolution JPEG scan of the light carrier Independence? (The Squadron magazine might have a good line drawing of her; I purchased Squadron's "Carrier Escorts" book recently for this reason.)

I sure will appreciate this.

~ Rod H

Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:18 am

Mike W

Post subject:

Re: Calling all USS Independence class (CVL) fans

DavidP wrote:

Mike, if the parts have not broken off, do you have a heat gun or a hand held hair dryer?

I have neither and both parts are snapped (I tried hot water). Dragon have been contacted.

thanksMike

[quote="DavidP"]Mike, if the parts have not broken off, do you have a heat gun or a hand held hair dryer?[/quote]

I have neither and both parts are snapped (I tried hot water). Dragon have been contacted.

thanksMike

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:30 am

DavidP

Post subject:

Re: Calling all USS Independence class (CVL) fans

Mike, if the parts have not broken off, do you have a heat gun or a hand held hair dryer?

Mike, if the parts have not broken off, do you have a heat gun or a hand held hair dryer?

Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:17 pm

Mike W

Post subject:

Re: Calling all USS Independence class (CVL) fans

Tracy White wrote:

OK, I thought I had copies of the "as launched" CVL-24 in high resolution but I had miss remembered. I do have a "good enough" shot from Rick Davis dated December of 1943. Early 1944 should be the same as the 1/350th CVL-23 Princeton, so you can use the instructions on this review of it as a bit of inspiration (this page). One difference is the small platform midway up the mast that has the searchlights and reproducers (speakers). Belleau Wood had the two reproducers that were on the port side overlooking the flight deck whereas the Princeton kit has a smaller platform with a single reproducer

Thanks for that! That should help. Now I just need to fix the warped parts!

thanksMike

[quote="Tracy White"]OK, I thought I had copies of the "as launched" CVL-24 in high resolution but I had miss remembered. I do have a "good enough" shot from Rick Davis dated December of 1943. Early 1944 should be the same as the 1/350th CVL-23 Princeton, so you can use the instructions on [url=http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/ships/cv/cvl-23/350-dr/dragon-review.html]this review of it[/url] as a bit of inspiration ([url=http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/ships/cv/cvl-23/350-dr/cvl23-Page-03.jpg]this page[/url]). One difference is the small platform midway up the mast that has the searchlights and reproducers (speakers). Belleau Wood had the two reproducers that were on the port side overlooking the flight deck whereas the Princeton kit has a smaller platform with a single reproducer[/quote]

Thanks for that! That should help. Now I just need to fix the warped parts!

thanksMike

Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:38 am

Tracy White

Post subject:

Re: Calling all USS Independence class (CVL) fans

OK, I thought I had copies of the "as launched" CVL-24 in high resolution but I had miss remembered. I do have a "good enough" shot from Rick Davis dated December of 1943. Early 1944 should be the same as the 1/350th CVL-23 Princeton, so you can use the instructions on this review of it as a bit of inspiration (this page). One difference is the small platform midway up the mast that has the searchlights and reproducers (speakers). Belleau Wood had the two reproducers that were on the port side overlooking the flight deck whereas the Princeton kit has a smaller platform with a single reproducer

OK, I thought I had copies of the "as launched" CVL-24 in high resolution but I had miss remembered. I do have a "good enough" shot from Rick Davis dated December of 1943. Early 1944 should be the same as the 1/350th CVL-23 Princeton, so you can use the instructions on [url=http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/ships/cv/cvl-23/350-dr/dragon-review.html]this review of it[/url] as a bit of inspiration ([url=http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/ships/cv/cvl-23/350-dr/cvl23-Page-03.jpg]this page[/url]). One difference is the small platform midway up the mast that has the searchlights and reproducers (speakers). Belleau Wood had the two reproducers that were on the port side overlooking the flight deck whereas the Princeton kit has a smaller platform with a single reproducer

Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:49 am

Mike W

Post subject:

Re: Calling all USS Independence class (CVL) fans

Tracy White wrote:

Independence and Princeton had a different arrangement than the others where one radar was on what looked like a saw horse platform versus a pole mast with a circular platform on the other ships - at least as launched. I'll be able to look over the differences more when I get home and have access to my high-resolution photos.

No problem! Annoyingly the forward hangar sides are badly warped outwards, so don't fit properly. Not sure how to fix that.

thanksMike

[quote="Tracy White"]Independence and Princeton had a different arrangement than the others where one radar was on what looked like a saw horse platform versus a pole mast with a circular platform on the other ships - at least as launched. I'll be able to look over the differences more when I get home and have access to my high-resolution photos.[/quote]

No problem! Annoyingly the forward hangar sides are badly warped outwards, so don't fit properly. Not sure how to fix that.

thanksMike

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:07 pm

Tracy White

Post subject:

Re: Calling all USS Independence class (CVL) fans

Independence and Princeton had a different arrangement than the others where one radar was on what looked like a saw horse platform versus a pole mast with a circular platform on the other ships - at least as launched. I'll be able to look over the differences more when I get home and have access to my high-resolution photos.

Independence and Princeton had a different arrangement than the others where one radar was on what looked like a saw horse platform versus a pole mast with a circular platform on the other ships - at least as launched. I'll be able to look over the differences more when I get home and have access to my high-resolution photos.

... there was the introduction of a new flight deck stain for carriers called #21 Flight Deck stain which began to be employed on the ESSEX class as they came into service in 1943. This color when newly applied exactly matched that of 5-0 Ocean Gray. This new stain was also used on the flight decks of INDEPENDENCE class CVLs and CVE classes in 1943 and into 1944. About mid 1944 there was the introduction of #21 Flight Deck stain (revised). This revised stain was (when newly applied) identical to 20B deck Blue (revised) and was a near match in service with the introduction in March 1944 of glossy Sea Blue, a new camouflage color for use on carrier aircraft.

I'm on my laptop and am limited to Navsource's CVL-24 page for now. There was a fairly systemic evolution to the mast that might enable you to use other ships photos to fill in the blanks. In early 1944 she would have had what I call the "Early" mast, which featured only a single yardarm to starboard and an angled/wedge truss structure forward, sort f like a stubby construction crane. This was cut off later and a more squared off appearance left. The earlier mast is shown in this photo of CVL-25 Cowpens (larger black & white copy available here). The later mast with a double yardarm and squared off front (as well as what the covered bridge actually looked like during war time) on the same ship is available here for comparison.

Would it have been pretty much the same a Independence? I have the Classic Warship book on that, so plenty of good pics.

[quote]... there was the introduction of a new flight deck stain for carriers called #21 Flight Deck stain which began to be employed on the ESSEX class as they came into service in 1943. This color when newly applied exactly matched that of 5-0 Ocean Gray. This new stain was also used on the flight decks of INDEPENDENCE class CVLs and CVE classes in 1943 and into 1944. About mid 1944 there was the introduction of #21 Flight Deck stain (revised). This revised stain was (when newly applied) identical to 20B deck Blue (revised) and was a near match in service with the introduction in March 1944 of glossy Sea Blue, a new camouflage color for use on carrier aircraft.[/quote]

I'm on my laptop and am limited to [url=http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/24.htm]Navsource's CVL-24 page[/url] for now. There was a fairly systemic evolution to the mast that might enable you to use other ships photos to fill in the blanks. In early 1944 she would have had what I call the "Early" mast, which featured only a single yardarm to starboard and an angled/wedge truss structure forward, sort f like a stubby construction crane. This was cut off later and a more squared off appearance left. The earlier mast is shown in [url=http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/022507.jpg]this photo of CVL-25 Cowpens[/url] (larger black & white copy available [url=https://www.history.navy.mil/content/history/nhhc/our-collections/photography/numerical-list-of-images/nara-series/80-g-k/80-G-K-00001/80-G-K-527.html]here[/url]). The later mast with a double yardarm and squared off front (as well as what the covered bridge actually looked like during war time) on the same ship is available [url=http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/022517.jpg]here[/url] for comparison.[/quote]

Would it have been pretty much the same a Independence? I have the Classic Warship book on that, so plenty of good pics.

... there was the introduction of a new flight deck stain for carriers called #21 Flight Deck stain which began to be employed on the ESSEX class as they came into service in 1943. This color when newly applied exactly matched that of 5-0 Ocean Gray. This new stain was also used on the flight decks of INDEPENDENCE class CVLs and CVE classes in 1943 and into 1944. About mid 1944 there was the introduction of #21 Flight Deck stain (revised). This revised stain was (when newly applied) identical to 20B deck Blue (revised) and was a near match in service with the introduction in March 1944 of glossy Sea Blue, a new camouflage color for use on carrier aircraft.

I'm on my laptop and am limited to Navsource's CVL-24 page for now. There was a fairly systemic evolution to the mast that might enable you to use other ships photos to fill in the blanks. In early 1944 she would have had what I call the "Early" mast, which featured only a single yardarm to starboard and an angled/wedge truss structure forward, sort f like a stubby construction crane. This was cut off later and a more squared off appearance left. The earlier mast is shown in this photo of CVL-25 Cowpens (larger black & white copy available here). The later mast with a double yardarm and squared off front (as well as what the covered bridge actually looked like during war time) on the same ship is available here for comparison.

[quote]... there was the introduction of a new flight deck stain for carriers called #21 Flight Deck stain which began to be employed on the ESSEX class as they came into service in 1943. This color when newly applied exactly matched that of 5-0 Ocean Gray. This new stain was also used on the flight decks of INDEPENDENCE class CVLs and CVE classes in 1943 and into 1944. About mid 1944 there was the introduction of #21 Flight Deck stain (revised). This revised stain was (when newly applied) identical to 20B deck Blue (revised) and was a near match in service with the introduction in March 1944 of glossy Sea Blue, a new camouflage color for use on carrier aircraft.[/quote]

I'm on my laptop and am limited to [url=http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/24.htm]Navsource's CVL-24 page[/url] for now. There was a fairly systemic evolution to the mast that might enable you to use other ships photos to fill in the blanks. In early 1944 she would have had what I call the "Early" mast, which featured only a single yardarm to starboard and an angled/wedge truss structure forward, sort f like a stubby construction crane. This was cut off later and a more squared off appearance left. The earlier mast is shown in [url=http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/022507.jpg]this photo of CVL-25 Cowpens[/url] (larger black & white copy available [url=https://www.history.navy.mil/content/history/nhhc/our-collections/photography/numerical-list-of-images/nara-series/80-g-k/80-G-K-00001/80-G-K-527.html]here[/url]). The later mast with a double yardarm and squared off front (as well as what the covered bridge actually looked like during war time) on the same ship is available [url=http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/022517.jpg]here[/url] for comparison.

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:02 pm

Mike W

Post subject:

Re: Calling all USS Independence class (CVL) fans

Tracy White wrote:

I only worked with Dragon on their 1/350th kits, so I'm not as familiar with the 1/700 offerings. If you mean this kit the enclosed bridge is wrong and looks more like what was installed during her later French Service (That said, I don't know if it's accurate even for that). Most looks mostly right, so it would mainly be a fairly simple rebuild of the enclosed bridge area - all flat shapes.

Thanks, that makes sense. There's two etch masts, so the next step is to work out which is which! I'm thinking of modelling her in early 44, as I've never modelled a ship in MS14, so I'll have to check out the radar and AA fit, although I suspect the kit is probably accurate enough in that way. Which flight deck stain would she have had in early 44?

thanksMike

[quote="Tracy White"]I only worked with Dragon on their 1/350th kits, so I'm not as familiar with the 1/700 offerings. If you mean [url=http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/ships/cv/cvl-24/700-dr/dragon-review.html]this kit[/url] the enclosed bridge is wrong and looks more like what was installed during her later French Service (That said, I don't know if it's accurate even for that). Most looks mostly right, so it would mainly be a fairly simple rebuild of the enclosed bridge area - all flat shapes.[/quote]

Thanks, that makes sense. There's two etch masts, so the next step is to work out which is which! I'm thinking of modelling her in early 44, as I've never modelled a ship in MS14, so I'll have to check out the radar and AA fit, although I suspect the kit is probably accurate enough in that way. Which flight deck stain would she have had in early 44?

thanksMike

Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:06 pm

Tracy White

Post subject:

Re: Calling all USS Independence class (CVL) fans

I only worked with Dragon on their 1/350th kits, so I'm not as familiar with the 1/700 offerings. If you mean this kit the enclosed bridge is wrong and looks more like what was installed during her later French Service (That said, I don't know if it's accurate even for that). Most looks mostly right, so it would mainly be a fairly simple rebuild of the enclosed bridge area - all flat shapes.

I only worked with Dragon on their 1/350th kits, so I'm not as familiar with the 1/700 offerings. If you mean [url=http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/ships/cv/cvl-24/700-dr/dragon-review.html]this kit[/url] the enclosed bridge is wrong and looks more like what was installed during her later French Service (That said, I don't know if it's accurate even for that). Most looks mostly right, so it would mainly be a fairly simple rebuild of the enclosed bridge area - all flat shapes.