"It is a lucky man who can say "I have lived in Herefordshire". That's where I grew up. And it is probably the most beautiful, unspoiled county in England and no one ever goes there. Still.

At the time, as a teenager, I thought it was ineffably boring. Now when I go back I see how lucky I was: surrounded by that intense loveliness. I could walk from my house to totally exquisite rural quietness, by the River Wye, in ten to fifteen minutes."

Anorak:

"Ditto my early life in a market town in the Lakes. Adore going back, despised it and everything about it as a teen."

The Lakes are, of course, sublime. The only problem is the tourists. But yes, it is amazing how one's perspectives change from teenhood to middle age. I would love a nice old house in rural Herefordshire right now.

I knew it! I checked to see the new thread hadn't gone up before I posted on the old one. I think my post triggered the publication.

Good evening, everyone.

(What I was asking was, how the Job Centre deals with people who live in a place where the first bus doesn't go until say 9.30am. How would anyone living in a place like that ever get to a typical day job? Assuming no car, of course.)

You've probably discussed this to death, and I haven't had time to read the threads (flying to Bordeaux tomorrow at 8am, UGH), but my God.

That advice from the AG, that the TMay deal is a calculated risk??? And the risk is that we might become a permanent vassal state of the EU??? A satrapy, a far flung imperial colony. that's the "calculated risk"?? Sure, vote for that, why not, then just hope for the best.

FUCK OFF

The deal is deader than the deadest thing in the Walking Dead. What next?

I think the risk is more we have to break cover from our holier-than-though reputation and just do what we want.

There are no deals whatsoever that the British people are obliged to tell their representatives to honor. If we get somehow entrapped in the EU we can just say 'Not for us thanks'. Who's going to object, or at least object so that we care?

I doubt that you'll look back on the above post with fondness.

That did actually occur to me after I wrote the post. If it comes to it, we are a sovereign nation, indeed we are not just a sovereign nation, we are the United Kingdom, godammit, so we can just say Fuck You and walk away from whatever. What is the EU gonna do? Invade? With broken German tanks and Guy Verhoefstadt holding a fly swatter?

Of course our Fuck You would lead to a trade war and be very nasty and probably very bad for our credit rating, but it would not be the end of days. We'd survive.

Nonetheless the phrase "calculated risk" when attached to the concept of perpetual vassalage is really not very good branding for TMay's deal. I cannot see how it passes.

The deal was already dead, they're just killing time until the meaningful vote and the next stage of this farce can begin, as various improbable things have to be considered and some promises, from Labour and the Tories, will either be proven true or to be a big pile of elephant dung.

Jon Craig of Sky suggested that six amendments will be taken by the speaker and one of them could pass, negating the vote on the deal. He did not say but as Nicola Sturgeon has again been with TM tonight, and Nicola wants a Norway deal, it could just be that is the amendment that will change the debate and should receive cross party support with all the SNP on board

Interesting. When do we get to see the amendments? Can they be tabled at any time through the MV debate?

"It is a lucky man who can say "I have lived in Herefordshire". That's where I grew up. And it is probably the most beautiful, unspoiled county in England and no one ever goes there. Still.

At the time, as a teenager, I thought it was ineffably boring. Now when I go back I see how lucky I was: surrounded by that intense loveliness. I could walk from my house to totally exquisite rural quietness, by the River Wye, in ten to fifteen minutes."

Anorak:

"Ditto my early life in a market town in the Lakes. Adore going back, despised it and everything about it as a teen."

The Lakes are, of course, sublime. The only problem is the tourists. But yes, it is amazing how one's perspectives change from teenhood to middle age. I would love a nice old house in rural Herefordshire right now.

Parliament has published a 52 page summary of the legal advice. Frothers and foamers of all stripes hate the deal already, which looks like failing by 200ish.What on earth is keeping the legal advice ?This is a true minority administration, not Blair's or Baldwin's huge majority. The Government needs to publish

"Herefordshire is more rural than Northumberland? As I said. Hexham JCP covers an area bigger than Herefordshire. And it is the only one."

It depends, of course, on how you define rurality. I think Herefordshire might be unique in England in having no high rise buildings (more than, say, ten storeys high), and no official length of motorway (unless you count the Ross spur (which some don't))

In other words its complicated. Northumberland would surely win on other metrics. Population density?

Parliament has published a 52 page summary of the legal advice. Frothers and foamers of all stripes hate the deal already, which looks like failing by 200ish.What on earth is keeping the legal advice ?This is a true minority administration, not Blair's or Baldwin's huge majority. The Government needs to publish

Jon Craig of Sky suggested that six amendments will be taken by the speaker and one of them could pass, negating the vote on the deal. He did not say but as Nicola Sturgeon has again been with TM tonight, and Nicola wants a Norway deal, it could just be that is the amendment that will change the debate and should receive cross party support with all the SNP on board

Benpointer

Interesting. When do we get to see the amendments? Can they be tabled at any time through the MV debate?

Big_G_NorthWales

Something is going on and it fits in with Nick Boles interview yesterday. No one can tell me that no 10 has not got a plan to announce on the deal falling

Not sure when we know about the amendments but it does seem a credible way round this mess

"Herefordshire is more rural than Northumberland? As I said. Hexham JCP covers an area bigger than Herefordshire. And it is the only one."

It depends, of course, on how you define rurality. I think Herefordshire might be unique in England in having no high rise buildings (more than, say, ten storeys high), and no official length of motorway (unless you count the Ross spur (which some don't))

In other words its complicated. Northumberland would surely win on other metrics. Population density?

There’s no motorway in Northumberland and I doubt there’s any high rise buildings either.

"Herefordshire is more rural than Northumberland? As I said. Hexham JCP covers an area bigger than Herefordshire. And it is the only one."

It depends, of course, on how you define rurality. I think Herefordshire might be unique in England in having no high rise buildings (more than, say, ten storeys high), and no official length of motorway (unless you count the Ross spur (which some don't))

In other words its complicated. Northumberland would surely win on other metrics. Population density?

Isle of Wight has no motorways and only one extremely short stretch of dual carriageway outside the hospital. And no buildings more than ten storeys high afaik

Jon Craig of Sky suggested that six amendments will be taken by the speaker and one of them could pass, negating the vote on the deal. He did not say but as Nicola Sturgeon has again been with TM tonight, and Nicola wants a Norway deal, it could just be that is the amendment that will change the debate and should receive cross party support with all the SNP on board

Benpointer

Interesting. When do we get to see the amendments? Can they be tabled at any time through the MV debate?

Big_G_NorthWales

Something is going on and it fits in with Nick Boles interview yesterday. No one can tell me that no 10 has not got a plan to announce on the deal falling

Not sure when we know about the amendments but it does seem a credible way round this mess

Let's take my village in Cumbria. The nearest job centre is in the nearest city - Barrow - some 21 miles away, a good 50 minutes along country roads by car, to be certain of getting there allow an hour, maybe a bit more to get there and find parking.

Walking - about 7 hours there - and 7 hours back. I'm sure HYUFD does those sorts of walks in a day regularly.

By bike - dunno - but say, over 2 hours, there and 2 hours back.

By public transport: well a walk to the local station is about 20 minutes and there is one train an hour which takes 45 minutes and then another walk or bus to the job centre. If the train does not come you're stuffed. There are no buses.

Some may have noticed that there were problems with Northern Rail this year. A big issue in Cumbria but not one which made it to the London-based papers. Who cares about unemployed rural Cumbrians after all.....

So easy peasy really......

About the only time I have really rooted for Corbyn was when he spoke up about rural bus services at PMQs - doubtless to the derisive condescension of many. But not me - because this sort of boring every day stuff, the minutiae of most people's lives, which can make life pleasant or tolerable or like an endless exhausting battle, is what matters to a lot of people.

And while I have no time for scroungers I do understand from my own life and that of people close to me that when you're down you need practical help not lectures and punishments and sometimes a little kindness does not go amiss not sanctioning people and then spouting statistics. What can seem easy to those of us who can cope can seem like an unsurmountable mountain to those who can't.

Yes people need to make an effort and develop a work ethic etc etc. Plunging them into poverty without thinking is not the best way to get them where you want them to be.

Oh - and apparently, according to HYUFD, working mothers need to get a non-working friend or relative to take their kids to school. Tough on those who don't have friends willing to get up at an early hour, travel to your house to take your kids to school or those whose nearest relative was their elderly and partly disabled mother.

HYUFD may be a splendid chap in real life but his latest comments exemplify why so many of us think so many Tories (a) don't live in the real world the rest of us live in; and (b) are heartless bastards, indifferent to the plight of those not like them.

Jon Craig of Sky suggested that six amendments will be taken by the speaker and one of them could pass, negating the vote on the deal. He did not say but as Nicola Sturgeon has again been with TM tonight, and Nicola wants a Norway deal, it could just be that is the amendment that will change the debate and should receive cross party support with all the SNP on board

Benpointer

Interesting. When do we get to see the amendments? Can they be tabled at any time through the MV debate?

Big_G_NorthWales

Something is going on and it fits in with Nick Boles interview yesterday. No one can tell me that no 10 has not got a plan to announce on the deal falling

Not sure when we know about the amendments but it does seem a credible way round this mess

"Herefordshire is more rural than Northumberland? As I said. Hexham JCP covers an area bigger than Herefordshire. And it is the only one."

It depends, of course, on how you define rurality. I think Herefordshire might be unique in England in having no high rise buildings (more than, say, ten storeys high), and no official length of motorway (unless you count the Ross spur (which some don't))

In other words its complicated. Northumberland would surely win on other metrics. Population density?

Isle of Wight has no motorways and only one extremely short stretch of dual carriageway outside the hospital. And no buildings more than ten storeys high afaik

As a die hard leaver who thinks May did a worse job of negotiating than if we'd sent Donald Duck, even I think this is starting to get silly. It's only a (probably ambiguous) legal opinion for crying out loud, not the holy grail. It's also not going to change a single mind no matter what it says - those who find it politically convenient to do so will either shout about it or rubbish it.

Let's just get on with the meaningful vote, and then we can either go off and lick our wounds or await plans B C and D from Downing Street.

"Herefordshire is more rural than Northumberland? As I said. Hexham JCP covers an area bigger than Herefordshire. And it is the only one."

It depends, of course, on how you define rurality. I think Herefordshire might be unique in England in having no high rise buildings (more than, say, ten storeys high), and no official length of motorway (unless you count the Ross spur (which some don't))

In other words its complicated. Northumberland would surely win on other metrics. Population density?

There’s no motorway in Northumberland and I doubt there’s any high rise buildings either.

Doesn't the A1 go straight through Northumberland, and is motorway on certain stretches?

I confess I have no clear idea. And I am happy to be corrected. They are both beautiful counties. Tho I personally prefer the soft fecundity of the south, and gentle, wild, rolling Herefordshire.

"Herefordshire is more rural than Northumberland? As I said. Hexham JCP covers an area bigger than Herefordshire. And it is the only one."

It depends, of course, on how you define rurality. I think Herefordshire might be unique in England in having no high rise buildings (more than, say, ten storeys high), and no official length of motorway (unless you count the Ross spur (which some don't))

In other words its complicated. Northumberland would surely win on other metrics. Population density?

There’s no motorway in Northumberland and I doubt there’s any high rise buildings either.

"Herefordshire is more rural than Northumberland? As I said. Hexham JCP covers an area bigger than Herefordshire. And it is the only one."

It depends, of course, on how you define rurality. I think Herefordshire might be unique in England in having no high rise buildings (more than, say, ten storeys high), and no official length of motorway (unless you count the Ross spur (which some don't))

In other words its complicated. Northumberland would surely win on other metrics. Population density?

Northumberland is curious. Over half the population live in the tiny corner south of Ashington and east of Morpeth. North of there and west, especially north of Hexham, and it is empty. Far more so than Herefordshire.

As a die hard leaver who thinks May did a worse job of negotiating than if we'd sent Donald Duck, even I think this is starting to get silly. It's only a (probably ambiguous) legal opinion for crying out loud, not the holy grail. It's also not going to change a single mind no matter what it says - those who find it politically convenient to do so will either shout about it or rubbish it.

Let's just get on with the meaningful vote, and then we can either go off and lick our wounds or await plans B C and D from Downing Street.

Sensible words all around. Not least because everybody's already talking about what the advice says or doesn't say without even seeing the full thing anyway, so it is not as though this is preventing talk of it.

"Herefordshire is more rural than Northumberland? As I said. Hexham JCP covers an area bigger than Herefordshire. And it is the only one."

It depends, of course, on how you define rurality. I think Herefordshire might be unique in England in having no high rise buildings (more than, say, ten storeys high), and no official length of motorway (unless you count the Ross spur (which some don't))

In other words its complicated. Northumberland would surely win on other metrics. Population density?

There’s no motorway in Northumberland and I doubt there’s any high rise buildings either.

Yeah, but Herefordshire has the SAS. If they say their county is the most rural, I'm not arguing with them. Ditto if they say it isn't.

"Herefordshire is more rural than Northumberland? As I said. Hexham JCP covers an area bigger than Herefordshire. And it is the only one."

It depends, of course, on how you define rurality. I think Herefordshire might be unique in England in having no high rise buildings (more than, say, ten storeys high), and no official length of motorway (unless you count the Ross spur (which some don't))

In other words its complicated. Northumberland would surely win on other metrics. Population density?

There’s no motorway in Northumberland and I doubt there’s any high rise buildings either.

"Herefordshire is more rural than Northumberland? As I said. Hexham JCP covers an area bigger than Herefordshire. And it is the only one."

It depends, of course, on how you define rurality. I think Herefordshire might be unique in England in having no high rise buildings (more than, say, ten storeys high), and no official length of motorway (unless you count the Ross spur (which some don't))

In other words its complicated. Northumberland would surely win on other metrics. Population density?

"Northumberland is curious. Over half the population live in the tiny corner south of Ashington and east of Morpeth. North of there and west, especially north of Hexham, and it is empty. Far more so than Herefordshire."

I'm sure that's true. Northumberland has a magnificent emptiness. And a grandeur, as well.

"Ditto my early life in a market town in the Lakes. Adore going back, despised it and everything about it as a teen."

The Lakes are, of course, sublime. The only problem is the tourists. But yes, it is amazing how one's perspectives change from teenhood to middle age. I would love a nice old house in rural Herefordshire right now.

My other half had exactly the same view as Anorak about his market town in the Lakes (maybe the same one?) when young. Now he adores the Lakes and has to be dragged away from the place.

So this is sub optimal for my bets on Geoffrey Cox or David Lidington succeeding Mrs May then?

Cox should point to May and say "She made me do it!"

Why is May getting the politics of this so wrong?

Actually I do not think she is. If Jon Craigs story tonight is true that there is a coalition of mps including Nick Boles and the SNP seeking to amend the deal to Norway , it is onlyby her going on and pressing the meaningful vote that will see this materialise.

Indeed if this happens I will be delighted as it will stop no deal and also another referendum

Iceland would welcome us and with Norway we would be 3 Countries wth our own coastal waters

"Herefordshire is more rural than Northumberland? As I said. Hexham JCP covers an area bigger than Herefordshire. And it is the only one."

It depends, of course, on how you define rurality. I think Herefordshire might be unique in England in having no high rise buildings (more than, say, ten storeys high), and no official length of motorway (unless you count the Ross spur (which some don't))

In other words its complicated. Northumberland would surely win on other metrics. Population density?

Isle of Wight has no motorways and only one extremely short stretch of dual carriageway outside the hospital. And no buildings more than ten storeys high afaik

"Herefordshire is more rural than Northumberland? As I said. Hexham JCP covers an area bigger than Herefordshire. And it is the only one."

It depends, of course, on how you define rurality. I think Herefordshire might be unique in England in having no high rise buildings (more than, say, ten storeys high), and no official length of motorway (unless you count the Ross spur (which some don't))

In other words its complicated. Northumberland would surely win on other metrics. Population density?

There’s no motorway in Northumberland and I doubt there’s any high rise buildings either.

"Herefordshire is more rural than Northumberland? As I said. Hexham JCP covers an area bigger than Herefordshire. And it is the only one."

It depends, of course, on how you define rurality. I think Herefordshire might be unique in England in having no high rise buildings (more than, say, ten storeys high), and no official length of motorway (unless you count the Ross spur (which some don't))

In other words its complicated. Northumberland would surely win on other metrics. Population density?

"Northumberland is curious. Over half the population live in the tiny corner south of Ashington and east of Morpeth. North of there and west, especially north of Hexham, and it is empty. Far more so than Herefordshire."

I'm sure that's true. Northumberland has a magnificent emptiness. And a grandeur, as well.

Bamburgh is stunning.

How can you forget my beloved Berwick on Tweed were I went to primary and grammar schools before leaving when I was 18

The EU is not without its own shenanigans. If they mean what they say they should be urgently preparing for no deal. Other than the belief they want a deal so bad they will massively compromise, I've not seen a reason why the EU would be so kind as to accommodate anything else. And anything else requires them to be accommodating.

The BBC's Hugh Schofield in Paris says more moderate members of the movement who said they would be prepared to talk are being shouted down by more extreme elements, and have been receiving death threats.

Let's take my village in Cumbria. The nearest job centre is in the nearest city - Barrow - some 21 miles away, a good 50 minutes along country roads by car, to be certain of getting there allow an hour, maybe a bit more to get there and find parking.

Walking - about 7 hours there - and 7 hours back. I'm sure HYUFD does those sorts of walks in a day regularly.

By bike - dunno - but say, over 2 hours, there and 2 hours back.

By public transport: well a walk to the local station is about 20 minutes and there is one train an hour which takes 45 minutes and then another walk or bus to the job centre. If the train does not come you're stuffed. There are no buses.

Some may have noticed that there were problems with Northern Rail this year. A big issue in Cumbria but not one which made it to the London-based papers. Who cares about unemployed rural Cumbrians after all.....

So easy peasy really......

About the only time I ha

Yes people need to make an effort and develop a work ethic etc etc. Plunging them into poverty without thinking is not the best way to get them where you want them to be.

Oh - and apparently, according to HYUFD, working mothers need to get a non-working friend or relative to take their kids to school. Tough on those who don't have friends willing to get up at an early hour, travel to your house to take your kids to school or those whose nearest relative was their elderly and partly disabled mother.

HYUFD may be a splendid chap in real life but his latest comments exemplify why so many of us think so many Tories (a) don't live in the real world the rest of us live in; and (b) are heartless bastards, indifferent to the plight of those not like them.

No, someone who believes unemployment benefits should go hand in hand with getting people ready for the world of work not as a handout.

If I was really handless I would advocate what the USA or Canada or Italy or Spain or Japan or Poland or indeed Norway does ie you cannot get any unemployment benefits at all unless you have made sufficient unemployment insurance contributions when in work and benefits are time limited, it is in those countries the foodbank for some really does become permanent.

The EU is not without its own shenanigans. If they mean what they say they should be urgently preparing for no deal. Other than the belief they want a deal so bad they will massively compromise, I've not seen a reason why the EU would be so kind as to accommodate anything else. And anything else requires them to be accommodating.

The BBC's Hugh Schofield in Paris says more moderate members of the movement who said they would be prepared to talk are being shouted down by more extreme elements, and have been receiving death threats.

Yes, whilst Emperor Macron struts round the globe lecturing anyone and everyone his country descends into anarchy. To think some on this site have been envious of the French being governed by the pompous out of touch Macron.

So let me get this right. The problem with the legal advice is that it suggests that there is a risk that under the backstop the EU can prevent the U.K. from leaving the customs union. Labour’s policy is to legally insist on the customs union being permanent.

"It is a lucky man who can say "I have lived in Herefordshire". That's where I grew up. And it is probably the most beautiful, unspoiled county in England and no one ever goes there. Still.

At the time, as a teenager, I thought it was ineffably boring. Now when I go back I see how lucky I was: surrounded by that intense loveliness. I could walk from my house to totally exquisite rural quietness, by the River Wye, in ten to fifteen minutes."

Anorak:

"Ditto my early life in a market town in the Lakes. Adore going back, despised it and everything about it as a teen."

The Lakes are, of course, sublime. The only problem is the tourists. But yes, it is amazing how one's perspectives change from teenhood to middle age. I would love a nice old house in rural Herefordshire right now.

Yes, the scene walking over the bridge towards Hereford Cathedral on a sunny day is sublime

OT Watching the news a nurse was murdered and her murderer has been sentenced to 17 years in jail. They were said to have had a three year 'affair'. Strange way to refer to it if neither of them were married or in a relationship with anyone else which i understand they weren't.

The BBC's Hugh Schofield in Paris says more moderate members of the movement who said they would be prepared to talk are being shouted down by more extreme elements, and have been receiving death threats.

Interesting to see so many PBers shilling for the vandalisers of the Arc de Triomphe.

The BBC's Hugh Schofield in Paris says more moderate members of the movement who said they would be prepared to talk are being shouted down by more extreme elements, and have been receiving death threats.

Interesting to see so many PBers shilling for the vandalisers of the Arc de Triomphe.

Frankly, the legal advice thing is ridiculous. The Attorney general provides legal advice to the Govt. if Parliament wants its own advice it can commission that for themselves. Legal advice is opinion, not fact. It is delivered for a client and that client is not obliged to act upon it or to make it available to others to influence their course of action.

Imagine if the Government were to go to court to try and argue a case that in some respects contradicted legal advice they had been given. If that legal advice could be forced into publication they could never win. And what if they had two contradictory versions of legal advice?

OT Watching the news a nurse was murdered and her murderer has been sentenced to 17 years in jail. They were said to have had a three year 'affair'. Strange way to refer to it if neither of them were married or in a relationship with anyone else which i understand they weren't.

She was engaged to someone else until not long before she was murdered.

I regularly use the very minor single track road past the abandoned quarry where her body was found - it gave me the creeps when I realised it was quite likely I'd driven past around the time the murderer was hiding the body!