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Author
Topic: Rough kissing (Read 25889 times)

I have been fretting about a kissing incident which happened a while back. I have read the revised lessons but I would really appreciate expert intervention to help calm my worries. Normally I wouldn't think twice about kissing, but the guy kissing me had quite a bad technique and his teeth were sort of chewing on/pulling at my lips. I remember feeling cross because I was not enjoying it and put up with it for a short while.

As far as I am aware I did not bleed but I am unsure as to whether this guy had any bleeding in his mouth. I am guessing that for there to have been any significant risk, there would have been visible or tasted blood. I have become more anxious since he has not tried to dispel my concerns.

You absolutely did not have a risk of hiv infection through kissing, deep, rough or otherwise. Not one person has ever become infected through kissing in the 25-plus years of this pandemic and you will not be the first.

Sexually speaking, hiv is transmitted through unprotected anal or vaginal intercourse and very, very rarely through giving a blowjob. And that's it.

Use condoms for intercourse and you will avoid hiv infection. It really is that simple.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Thank you for your speedy response. I guess I am just concerned about the potential for blood to blood contact in the mouth - would this have to be a significant amount to have any real risk, given that the mouth is a poor environment for the virus to survive in?

Would the saliva still protect me if I ended up with dents and maybe some blood on my lips? I'm not sure if I was able to lick my lips because I was taken back by the whole experience!

Thank you both for the top notch advice. You do a fantastic job

Ste x

Yup, saliva would retain it's inhibitory effect even if you had cuts and blood on your lips. But even without the saliva, HIV just isn't transmitted through cut lips and the like. It's transmitted through unprotected anal and vaginal sex because those activities provide the sort of environment that a fussy virus like HIV demands for it's transmission. Kissing just doesn't make the grade as far as HIV is concerned.

I'm back again with a few mild concerns (all related to kissing with a different person) which I hope you can help me with.

1) Kissing while having a small fresh cut on the gum under my tongue (possibly not bleeding)2) Kissing while having a mouth ulcer (bottom of inside lip near gums)3) Kissing a friend goodbye; her face turned quickly and the sharp end of her hooped earring stabbed my lip slightly (I don't know how!)

Of course, I cannot be sure whether any of these people were bleeding in their mouth (or ear lobe), though I'm guessing that the risk in any of these cases is quite low.

Considering that I have torn up the internet looking for HIV related stuff, I have not seen anything saying kissing can cause HIV that isn't written by some right-wing kook. I think the facts say you are perfectly safe.

But I know how hard it is to give up worrying about something, the facts in my case say the same thing, but I'm still terrified! But I have to say...you've got nothing to worry about.

I know exactly what you mean.. I find that I can be more rational and logical about a situation as an outsider, but when it is a personal situation combined with anxiety then it's a whole new ball game. At the moment I am attending counselling sessions at my local clinic, and am finding the experience valuable so far.

Oh and thanks for the feedback guys, I am aware that kissing is as safe as it gets really, though the possibility of blood (particularly in the third point) just got me alarmed.

Just read on another reputable site that it is possible for HIV transmission to occur through ear piercing if a studio does not take proper steps to disinfect/clean their equipment etc. Was just wondering how this could be the case if potentially contaminated blood is exposed to air and other factors. I am just concerned about the third incident above, where I got stabbed in the lip by the sharp end of an earring which a friend was wearing at the time (ok, I know it's not quite the same as ear piercery).

I appreciate that she was wearing the earrings all evening and probably did not even have blood on them (new skin would have grown round the earlobe?) Any feedback much appreciated.

What you described it not an HIv risk at all. I am rather surprised that you'd even consider it.

It's sort of like wondering if the McNuggets you ate will give you bird flu.

Logged

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

Thanks for the reassurance, you're a star I guess I'm just stacking up minor exposures, possibly through guilt... like recently when a guy I know frottage'd me (lol). He was briefly rubbing against my exposed behind in his soccer shorts, but as memory would have it, I have started to ask 'what if' there was actually any insertion - no matter how shallow or if for a second. Anyhow, I remember touching him straight away and he felt dry; but I have realised that much of my anxiety at the time was due to not being in control and only just testing negative before the incident.

Hope you're doing good. Well I've spent a few months now trying to make sense of my last concern, and whether there was in fact any risk. I am told that there was no risk 'as long as there was no insertion' but to recall what actually happened is very difficult - especially when you bring feelings such as anxiety into the mix. I'm going on my memory of sense, in that I can remember moderate pressure for a short while. Also, would the shorts have prevented any fluids getting through? I am pretty sure that they were dry afterwards, but there's always the slippery 'what if..'

The most recent concern I've had - and okay I've read quite similar posts on here - is that I was kissing this guy the other week and I remember tasting something when I swallowed. After a few hours of getting home, I tried to convince myself this was a bit of blood (if it was blood then I'm sure it was not mine) and I had sore raw lips at the time, which I remember pulling at with my teeth earlier on. Five days later, and I developed a smooth clear/red patch on the side of my tongue - which has added to my concerns. I'm pretty sure it's nothing to worry about, as I have a cold at the moment, but can't think what it might be. It tingles slightly when I think about it and there are some small bumps/sharp buds on it. I will see my doctor soon if it doesn't sort itself out.

Sorry for the scattered points, I hope you can pick them out in your response (which I hope and look forward for)

If this guy managed to get his penis inside of you, through soccer shorts, then believe me buddy, you would have known it. You'd know if something entered your anus unless you happened to be in a coma at the time.

You have not had a risk of hiv infection. No way, no how. And as we have repeatedly told you, kissing is NOT a risk for hiv infection. I've been kissing my man for over seven years and he remains hiv negative.

If you cannot put these fears, that have no basis in the science of hiv transmission, behind you, then I suggest you get yourself some counseling. You don't have to let this anxiety rule your life.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

You and your fellow moderators are stars. The counselling is a slow work in progress but my doctor is wonderful - I am finding it a useful investment of time and would highly recommend it to other 'worried wells'.

Stick with working with your doctor, Ste. It may not offer the "instant gratification" and magic cures which are what pretty much everyone seems to want these days.

But I would encourage to stay with it and to put in the effort because it can really pay off. There are likely to be other issues around the one which originally brought you to see a professional and it's worth the journey to get those things sorted out.

I completely agree with you - in fact the main issue which I thought was the root of my troubles was only one factor; there were others which have been brought to the surface, stemming much further back. At first I doubted just how useful the sessions would be, so I think it's important to just be open minded and patient.

I'm back again, sorry! I'm feeling quite anxious but it's probably because I do not know if I will be able to see my lovely doctor again until the new year As recall would have it, I am now starting to wonder whether having a mouth ulcer in addition to raw lips would be a cause for concern when kissing, keeping in mind that I am still dwelling on the possibility of blood from this guy's mouth.

I can appreciate that kissing is generally no risk for HIV as the mouth is a poor environment for the virus, but if there was blood in this person's mouth and if I had an ulcer, would this change anything? I'm trying to convince myself that the specific situation is not so unique (out of all the kisses going on around the world, some are bound to involve bleeding and mouth sores, surely).

Thanks for your response. I know I'm being pedantic here, but when you say kissing is still no risk even with an ulcer 'or' a little blood, does that include blood from someone else possibly getting into my mouth 'and' coming into contact with my mouth ulcer? I guess I am just trying to understand why it is no risk.

Sorry for keeping on guys - any contributions most gratefully accepted.

I've just spoken to a friend (devil's advocate) and have started to get panicky again. I realise what you are saying about saliva, but would it still protect a mouth ulcer? Also, what if there was more than 'a little blood' (which I find hard to quantify anyway) - would this change the risk much?

How common do you think it is for people to kiss with an ulcer and be exposed to someone else's blood? I cannot get to see my counsellor for almost two months now so maybe that's making me panic, so I really rely on you guys at the moment.

Thanks for your input on this issue RapidRod, I'd also like to hear from Andy or Ann (please).

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Thank you for your response. I'm not sure if I made myself clear when I mentioned saliva - first, would it prevent blood from someone else's mouth finding an entry point in my ulcer? (I'm not concerned about their saliva, of course). Also, even if there was more than a bit of blood, even with the ulcer, would there only be a small risk at best?

I'm sorry, I realise I am like a broken record - please can you just clarify these two things for me. I blame the friend for throwing me off balance with his theory that I had a risk and should test.

When you kissed this person you're so worried about, was their mouth dripping with blood? Had you just punched them in the mouth? No? Well I'm telling you there wouldn't have been enough blood present to pose a risk.

I'm not sure if I made myself clear - you did NOT have a risk of hiv infection through kissing. No way, no how, no, no, no! NO! NO RISK. Kissing - no matter what sort of spin you want to put on it - is NOT a risk. Got it?

Keep this up and you will earn yourself a time out to encourage you to get some counseling to discover why you cannot let this go.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

It's me again, this time with something slightly different - I think I've got over the whole kissing thing now I was just hoping that one (or more) of you could clear something up for me.. I know mutual masturbation is as safe it gets on the sex scale, but am unsure whether there would be any risk if semen came into contact with the flesh towards the stem of my thumbnail, as one side of the nail seems to dent inwards leaving the skin raised above. I was not too concerned at the time because there were no visible cuts otherwise.

Also, would there be any risk if any of his semen (on his or my hand) came into contact with my penis? Obviously I cannot recall whether this even happened, but I remember seeing semen there - possibly precum, as I didn't go past 'the point of no return'. Any feedback much appreciated.

When we say that mutual masturbation is no risk, we are fully aware that semen will come into contact with various areas of the participants skin, including fingers and penises. We are fully aware that there might be papercuts and hangnails and masturbation abrasions present on the skin. None of this puts you at risk for hiv infection.

Mutual masturbation is not a risk for hiv infection, no ands, iffs or buts about it. No risk.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

This will probably sound crazy but I've been dwelling on it since it happened at the weekend. Some guy was all over me like a rash, we were topless, and eventually he started chewing/nibbling and licking my nipples with his lips covering the area (effectively creating an airlock). Wouldn't have been so bad if I actually enjoyed it!

Anyway after a few minutes of this, and feeling sore, I managed to escape to the bathroom. The skin/nipples looked red raw, broken and dented: on the verge of bleeding, as there seemed to be a tiny speck or two of blood. Of course, it is likely that I was only exposed to a lot of his saliva, but I'm concerned about bites and the possibility of blood to blood contact.

Please could you wonderful people tell me whether this was a risky scenario, and if not, give an explanation. Thanks

Secondly, saliva is not infectious and you were not at risk in any way shape or form no matter what happened. Read the lessons. Rough nipple biting/kissing is not a route for HIV infection. The skin is a VERY effective barrier as well as the virus is pronounced in saliva and saliva actually has enzymes that break down the virus.

Seriously, read the lessons. It doesnt work this way.

« Last Edit: April 03, 2007, 03:23:13 PM by ACinKC »

Logged

LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safelyin a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT ARIDE!!!

I think that us 'worried wells' struggle to infer and/or deduce from information in the lessons and relate it to our specific concerns... it often needs a more personal and direct touch, so thanks for taking the time!

I am pleased that you highlighted the skin as a very effective barrier (and in another post) with multiple layers. So assuming that he did have bleeding in his mouth, perhaps gums, then the quality or quantity of the virus (if it existed) would not have been sufficient.. am I right? I fully appreciate what you say about saliva.

I'm sure I read before that HIV has been known to transmit through human bites, but am now under the impression that this is extremely unlikely and the only way into the bloodstream through the skin is with needles and deep bleeding cuts. Please feel free to correct me or add anything else!

I don't understand why we must always assume that the other person is #1 BLEEDING on you and #2 that if they are they are HIV+. In your case he could have been bleeding profusely from all of his gums and it wouldnt make a difference.

YOUR SKIN IS THE BARRIER. I know of no case of HIV transmission through a human bite.

Logged

LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safelyin a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT ARIDE!!!

Something slightly more general now if that's okay. I've read in a few places (not here, however) that mutual masturbation is safe unless there are sores or abrasions on the head of the penis. It does concern me slightly because I have a small bump on mine (but have had full check ups since).

I find this assertion hard to believe because, first and foremost, we are consistently informed on this site that mutual masturbation is not a route of HIV transmission. I am happy to go with the understanding that any infected fluids will not survive (or be infectious enough) outside the body, and that if they should make contact with such sores then it is not going to be direct contact. That's the rational thinking, anyway.

Is it only during sexual (vaginal, anal, oral) intercourse that cuts and abrasions - in this case, on the penis - can increase the risk of HIV infection? Maybe this is where I am getting confused.

Thanks for the responses, I just needed some clarification. I know not all information on the web is accurate, but it does tend to play devil's advocate with my mind.

I am still getting help (though it may not seem like it lol) and the anxiety is not as bad as it used to be. What's more, I am still resisting the urge to test after each and every incident, which I guess is a step forward.

Just a quick problem for you if that's okay.. I was with a guy and we were both in our underwear. He was heavily pre-cumming and pressing up against me. His fluids would have come into contact with my underwear and possibly my penis - it's just hard to know whether this would still count as innocent enough body rubbing given that he would not allow any air between us!

He was quite forceful, persistent and even arrogant! I did not feel comfortable with the situation, so I know why I'm focusing on the finer details. Is there any HIV risk or otherwise here for this specific situation?

ST, you've been hanging around here long enough to know the kind of incident you have raised this time is absolutely not a risk for transmission. (Re)Read the transmission lesson as Rod has suggested for a refresher on the basics.

Once again this is about feelings and fears which have no basis in HIV science. HIV is a fragile virus which requires the kind of receptive setting that unprotected anal or vaginal intercourse provides. Mutual masturbation, with or without clothing on, frottage and other common sexual play are not risky behaviors. Period. End of story.

Just a quick problem I hope you can help me with. Was with a guy and we were kissing for a while (I've gone back to being more comfortable with it when it's something I want to do). All of a sudden, he noticed his finger was bleeding so he sucked it for a while. We didn't kiss again immediately, but we did kiss a short while after (mainly closed mouth but did feel his tongue at one point). My lips were sore and raw but I'm not sure whether they would count as cuts.

I'm guessing (well hoping really) you'll help me to see that this is nothing to worry about. I am trying to find reassurance in the following features: * blood wasn't coming from his mouth (he was sucking blood from his finger)* blood would have been exposed to air and, if infected, weakened by saliva in his mouth* we did not kiss immediately so if the blood was infected then it would have become less (or lost its) infectiousness?* despite my sore lips, I was not dripping with blood

Once again you are worrying needlessly. His having sucked his finger when it was bleeding was not a means of storing up HIV+ blood in his mouth waiting for you to be kissed and thereby infected. Naw, that's just your head going to town again.

Kissing is NOT a risk for HIV transmission. Period. End of story. Your own saliva has naturally inhibitory elements against HIV even if there was blood present in his mouth.

Andy: thanks for your last response - it really helped to highlight my irrational thinking and paranoia. I am trying to keep my posting on here to a minimum as I can appreciate just how much time you all devote to this site.

Quick scenario for you guys really. Mutual masturbation with a man, he ejaculated on my tummy without much warning. I was not quick enough to cover myself with my hand, and so some of his cum came into contact with (the head/tip of) my penis, both as he came and when my penis accidentally flopped back onto my tummy. Sorry to be graphic!

I hope you will be able to help / advise me of any risk as usual. Many thanks.

No problem about being graphic. It actually helps in knowing specifically what happened. Sperm on the surface of skin including your penis is not a risk for transmission. You've been coming here long enough to know that. Unfortunately you seem to go from experience to experience without stopping to apply what you've been told (and hopefully learned) from previous exchanges.

The only real risks sexually are either unprotected vaginal or anal intercourse. Everything else is no risk or only risky theoretically, which means in the real world of HIV infection doesn't happen that way. That's a pretty simple and clearcut guide for you to go by.