Comments:

31

Fusee

@ Karmic Equation #30: I appreciate your clarification but it does not change the fact that you seem to refuse to understand me and insist in saying that I use (first time) sex as a bargaining chip. I’m really tired of clarifying that I do not (if I did I would gladly say so, but as I repeatedly wrote in above comments, I do not, and I believe that it would be ineffective anyway given the non-substantial and impermanent nature of a “commitment”), and I suspect it will not help as you appear totally stuck on that conviction. So be it! I’m done : )

Thank you, Evan, for trying again @ 31. Being in the position of being misunderstood and falsely portrayed makes me understand the extent of your patience with people who simply refuse to understand your opinion or advice no matter how clear and detailled the explanation is.

“So holding out for a commitment is not to make a guy commit; it’s to scare away any guy who has absolutely no intentions of committing. That way, she doesn’t sleep with a man who will break her heart. It’s a protection mechanism to weed out players; it’s not a bargaining chip.”

I understand where you’re coming from and phrased this way I tend to agree with you more than I disagree.

The disagreement is that if a woman’s good-guy-dar and powers of observation work properly, she should have been able to identify the players (and pass them over) before she has to put in any effort into weeding them out. The players shouldn’t have gotten past her “he’s a player gate” to the point where she would even consider them for a relationship. If he does get past her defenses, then something else has already gone awry and whatever that something else is needs to be fixed first.

It’s all a matter of perspective. Your perspective, imho, unintentionally, puts a woman in “victim mode” — she needs to protect herself from being hurt; this protects her from being a victim of those player dudes. My perspective empowers women. If she thinks of giving [first time] sex as her super power (“bargaining chip” – but super power sounds so much better), would she really waste that power on unworthy men? I would bet not. Instead she would qualify the men better, i.e., make sure he’s consistent, make sure he’s kind, make sure he’s fill-in-the-blank, before she gives it to him. And when she does, it’s a choice she made as opposed a test he’s passed. How empowering is that? For both the woman and the man? He’s not being “shit-tested” and she’s making a proactive, not reactive, choice. She chose him and, if she qualified him properly, he should be good to her.

@Fusee 33

Not sure why you think we are disagreeing. Just because you don’t perceive what you’re doing the way I perceive, doesn’t mean that you’re not doing it the way I perceive it. OTOH, just because I perceive that you’re doing it that way, doesn’t mean you are. AND I’m not knocking for doing it the way I perceive you to be doing it. You’re doing it right, either way–my way or your way! We have no disagreement on the process. We’re just disagreeing on the *perception* of the process. My perception is that you empowered yourself.

What you’re not acknowledging, Karmic, is that not all women can handle the consequences of sleeping with men without commitment. Just cause YOU can doesn’t mean it’s as easy for other women.

So you think you’re using your flawless good-guy-dar, but other women have found that:

a) their good-guy-dar doesn’t work so well b) even if it does work well most of the time, she’d rather not be on pins and needles hoping that the man she slept with turns into a boyfriend. She set herself up for this feeling by sleeping with him without commitment.

So, just because YOU can date like a guy, sleep with someone, and not worry too much if it’s going to get serious (and I’m right there with you), since many women CAN’T pull this off, their best tool is to insist on commitment BEFORE sex. This doesn’t make them victims. It makes them smart because they’ve found a way to handle the emotionally dicey proposition of uncommitted sex.

Just got this email from a former Inner Circle client fifteen minutes ago. Here’s what she said:

“And waiting to have sex until exclusivity? My god, he made me think I made him wait a year, but I have to tell you, I think that was so important. And I can tell it made him think differently (better) about me because I made him wait. He recently invited me to spend Thanksgiving with him in Coronado at the family of one of his best friends; and told me he’s never invited a girl before to this.”

You may not need this, Karmic, but it’s incredibly effective AND empowering for women who don’t want to worry about what’s going to happen with the guy who just left her bedroom.

My “superpower” is not when I open myself up to physical intimacy for the first time, or any time for that matter.

My superpower consists in my intuitive ability of making my wonderful man feel so good about himself, life, and the prospect of a life with him and me together that he does not even think that much about sex anymore.

EMK – 35. I agree with you on that. Here is a statement made by a man I know “She was okay just to have sex with. But I really would not introduce HER to my family and friends”. Yes, some of us, myself included, can not do commitment-free sex. The sex act without love just becomes bonking and it is not enjoyable. This might sound really prudish but the truth is that, for certain women, having and sharing orgasms or pleasure just does not come (pardon the pun) without feeling safe in a relationship. Fusée 36 – He won’t think that much about sex any more? Hm. I believe you.

I’m a libertarian, so I don’t care what people do in their personal lives providing they don’t hurt anybody else. It is a well established fact that there are far, far (at least 7 times) more women seeking sugar daddy / baby relationships than men seeking these relationships. The whole thing is much more honest than your average gold digger who dates or even marries a guy for his money which happens ALL the time.

Look, I have never been in a sugar daddy / baby relationship, but life is too short for BS. And one thing I like about this is it cuts out the BS. There are tons and tons of women in LA where I live, who are aspiring models / actresses who are looking for some rich guy to sponsor them. Well, fine. Instead of pretending to like him and try to get him to fall in love with you and all this related BS, just be upfront and straightforward about what you want and expect. I frankly am SICK of seeing my friends manipulated into spending money on women with no return, and in some cases, even borrowing money, co-signing on loans with some hot woman, only to be rejected and stomped on, when he wasn’t good for any more money. If you are REALLY interested, let’s date. If you are NOT interested be upfront about that. If you ONLY want money, be upfront about that.

@ Adam #35“I’m a libertarian, so I don’t care what people do in their personal lives providing they don’t hurt anybody else.”

Snap! I’m a libertarian too.

“It is a well established fact that there are far, far (at least 7 times) more women seeking sugar daddy / baby relationships than men seeking these relationships”

Although I don’t doubt the veracity of this statistic I’d be curious to see its provenance…

“There are tons and tons of women in LA where I live, who are aspiring models / actresses who are looking for some rich guy to sponsor them. Well, fine. Instead of pretending to like him and try to get him to fall in love with you and all this related BS, just be upfront and straightforward about what you want and expect. “

Why would women “who are looking for some rich guy to them” handicap their goal by being upfront and straightforward about this?

“I frankly am SICK of seeing my friends manipulated into spending money on women with no return, and in some cases, even borrowing money, co-signing on loans with some hot woman, only to be rejected and stomped on, when he wasn’t good for any more money.”

Why do your friends spend/borrow to spend money on women for no return? Because they were “manipulated”? Come on.

“If you are REALLY interested, let’s date. If you are NOT interested be upfront about that. If you ONLY want money, be upfront about that.”

This sounds a lot like women here who complain about guys who only want sex not volunteering this information upfront. Why would men volunteer this information if it’s not in their interest to do so?

Adam, I disagree with your central premise. You seem to think that women should assume the responsibility for how men should spend their money, whereas I think grown men are fully capable of deciding how to spend it themselves. If your friends were mature adults they would stop blaming women, refuse to allow themselves be manipulated and swiftly move on once they see that there is no return.

It is all very simple. If a woman wants money, she should be upfront and straightforward about the fact she wants money and that is it. That is why I consider sugar babies, strippers and other sex workers as morally superior to gold diggers.

As to my friends, the one that co-signed the loan was engaged to the woman and they ended up getting married. He was really in love and the marriage lasted as long as his money did. When he hit a financial roadblock, the money dried up and she left. She was a master con-artist and I can see how he got taken in.

@ Adam #35.1.1“It is all very simple. If a woman wants money, she should be upfront and straightforward about the fact she wants money and that is it.”

Why should she though? Because you say so? The thing is, Adam, you don’t set the rules of what others should or shouldn’t do. All you can control is your own behavior. Therefore, it is up to you to determine whether she just wants money, not up to her to tell you that that’s all she wants.

It’s not even that hard to determine if a woman just wants money. Simply observing her behavior on a few dates should be sufficient to determine her character and motives.

“That is why I consider sugar babies, strippers and other sex workers as morally superior to gold diggers.”

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