Officer Safety . . .

If it is reasonable – justifiable – for a cop to base every interaction with a citizen on the presumption that the citizen might be a threat to his “safety,” isn’t the reverse all the more reasonable? That a citizen should assume the worst when confronted by a cop?

After all, a cop is known to be armed – and not merely with a gun. He possesses the authority of the state and with it, a far more relaxed standard for using gross and disproportionate violence against a citizen. He can do things to you legally – without fear of repercussions that no ordinary citizen would dare to do – and to which, moreover, the ordinary citizen is legally obliged to submit.

Is it not enough to make a citizen fear for his safety?

Consider:

You are driving along, on your way home. You glance up in the rearview and notice there is a big white sedan just inches off your bumper. Cops do this for a reason – to intimidate a prospect.

Then all of a sudden, flashing strobe lights and loud sirens – the purpose of which is also to intimidate. To instill fear.

Now you are aware that an armed stranger is demanding you stop your vehicle – god only knows why.

But you do know – having read about it last week – that another armed stranger subjected another motorist who’d apparently done nothing more than commit a minor moving violation to repeated forced anal probing, forced enemas and a forced colonoscopy. You know, moreover, that this was not an isolated, one-time incident (see here) but rather, has become a fairly common practice (affirmed by the Supreme Court, which has ruled that citizens are subject to strip searches – at the discretion of the cop – after having been detained for almost any “violation,” including minor traffic offenses).

Your mind rolls over the YouTube videos you saw the other day. The Tazerings, the head-kickings, the slamming of slightly built, middle aged women into concrete benches.

You wonder: am I going to be next?

And you are afraid.

It is absolutely reasonable to be afraid of cops these days. To dread them, in fact.

Far more so than for them to be afraid of us. They represent an increasingly lawless, unaccountable authority that does just what it pleases to anyone it likes. Hardly a day goes by without an absolutely appalling case of egregious over-use of force cropping up on YouTube or LiveLeak. These videos give the lie to the stories cops used to tell – and which were hard to contest – that their victims “resisted” or (lately) presented a “threat” to “officer safety.” Instead, we see the truth: Video doesn’t lie. The spectacle of a fellow citizen being cold cocked by a cop three times the victim’s size – and for no justifiable reason. Just because he can.

We are powerless in the face of this authority. One need not even violate a law to become the object of law enforcement. Merely to be out in public is enough to put one in peril of any random cop’s bad mood. Or outright sadism. Of late, they openly state that “the law” doesn’t matter (as, for example, in the case of people held at gunpoint who did nothing more than openly carry a firearm in full compliance with open carry laws in their state; see here). Cops do whatever they like – and we are expected to Submit & Obey.

Yet they are afraid of us!

We are expected – no, legally required – to be supine and accepting. To give them the benefit of every doubt – even to the extent that it places our own lives or those of our families in extreme jeopardy.

It is laughable – and pathetic- at the same time. These “heroes” – quaking in their body armor, high-capacity, military-grade semi-automatic pistols strapped to their hips – shivering with trepidation at the prospect of dealing with an argumentative soccer mom, scrawny teenager or senior citizen who refuses to “comply.” These beefy tough guys stewing in steroids – with their buzz cut hair and dark sunglasses who see “threats” everywhere.

One almost feels sorry for them.

Of course, these alleged “threats” to their “safety” are really nothing more than less-than-immediate deference to their authority. That’s what arouses their ire, these sad little big men.

And women, too.

It ought to be the other way around, of course. Cops – those charged with enforcing the law and endowed with the legal authority to use force – should be afraid of citizens. Or rather, they ought to be afraid of the consequences of abusing their authority. They ought to be obliged to give us the benefit of every doubt. To put their “safety” at risk, if need be – for the sake of ours.

Is that not, after all, what “heroes” are supposed to do?

But of course, they are not heroes. They are enforcers. Members of the most violent gang in the country. It is a hard thing to come to grips with, intellectually – after a lifetime of immersion in fairy tales about serving and protecting. But our guts have long known the truth of the thing. Who among us feels safe when they see a cop car inches off their bumper? Or a cop, period? Who invites them to their home? Wants them around? Feels comfortable in their presence?

Our minds are finally catching up with our guts.

More and more of us are coming to realize that any interaction with a cop could be a life-changing (or even life-ending) experience. That it is in no way paranoid to harbor the fear – given what’s happening all around the country – that any of us could be next.

As this dawning awareness percolates, I expect pushback. Because you can only push people so far. When someone’s scared – and for good reason – unpredictable things can happen.

Cops, more than anyone, ought to understand this.

Sow the wind – reap the whirlwind. . . .

Throw it in the Woods?

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Tomas, your comment started out real fine, it made sense, but then it slowly drifted downhill, deep down into statist valley.

Tomas wrote, “laws do not have enough teeth in them” … “There needs to be laws to deal with those whose behavior escalates […] over time”

The Law Is Dead

“The Law died because she had to in order to make room for what Bastiat called “legal plunder” which “destroys for its own profit, and in different degrees amongst the rest of the community, personal independence by slavery, liberty by oppression, and property by plunder.” ” …

“As the disruptive histories of state planning and regulation reveal, efforts to impose order by fiat often produce disorder, a phenomenon whose explanation is to be found in the dynamical nature of complexity. In the words of Terry Pratchett: “Chaos is found in greatest abundance wherever order is being sought.” …

Rothbard, I meant that particular stalking law didn’t have enough teeth for the situation, i apologize for any confusion i may have caused. The current stalking law and penalty guidelines as written applied for the other stalker that was up for indictment, but not so the other deviant who is wayyyy out there. That situation Started out innocently, then progressed to showing up at odd hours, followed by getting upset if she didn’t pay enough attention, then following her around town, verbal/written abuse when she interacted with other males, then later threats against her and daughter, then the verbal/written threats of death and dismemberment (over 7000 via email alone), along with threats of necrophelia while her daughter would be made to watch. Chasing her car, etc… All this increased in frequency and threat level over the course of almost 3 years.

Personally, this lunatic needs to be stoned at the city gates. That situation will only end when one of them is dead unfortunately. I hope the victim has a gun, she will need it when this guy gets out of prison. This is the case I referred to regarding that this particular law needs to have more teeth. Perhaps it should be its own law of escalating stalking. 1-10 yrs in jail will not discourage this guy. He called her from jail when he was picked up on the current charge as icing on the cake.

I do realize there are way too many laws that have criminalized the normal, I don’t even want those on the books, let alone make them more onerous.

Really, it’s not the particular law or case that is at issue.
Your premise seems to be: the grand jury system generally works, ‘we’ just need more and better laws in certain situations.
You try to make a distinction between laws to combat true criminals vs. criminalizing the normal. However; I don’t think it works that way. Just to start it off, any amped up laws wouldn’t apply to cops who do the same behavior as part of their job.

The laws we have, have only made things worse (i.e. 1-10 yrs in jail will not discourage this guy. He called her from jail) so what makes you think even more laws (the death penalty for stalking? whatever someone else decides ‘stalking’ is?) will effect change for the better without creating chaos, unintended consequences, misery, and spread far beyond the boundaries in which it first starts from, such as, for example, with the original intent of swat teams?

As for solutions, now?
She should move. That’s an option.
If she could afford it, hire a bodyguard.
The system, the cops, and more laws ‘with teeth’ will not protect her.
The solution is not in making a better monster through reform.
It is still a monster.

Is the grand jury a part of a justice system, or part of a penal system?

Consider this:

“The point is that justice has to do with righting actual wrongs that have been done to people, not enforcing laws, which means enforcing the will of the politicians, which means nothing more than being the brute squad for the king, as in old times.”

I think everyone is assuming I have an intent that laws protect people, without exception. With regards to the single law I think needs ramped up penalties; the stalker needs kept away from polite society for a long time. Sure, he called her from prison, but how does that equate to the prior, aggressive behaviors. Right now he is a snarling dog held in a cage. He cannot kill her, or attempt to kill her right now. As I said before, this guy should be put out of is misery, but that isn’t an option right now. Best option is to let him grow old in prison. Is a system of justice where appropriate punishments are meted out not a good idea? Granted, I realize that the current system is corrupt, venal, and to a large extent, self serving. Like all things in life where humans are involved, if there is no morality in the person, there will be no morality in their output.

I do regret some of the drug offenses we forwarded for prosecution, a lot of those were just free will w/ no harm to anyone.

Bevin, Regarding police having no obligation to protect you. Not news to me. Police are there to assess the damage after it is done IMO. I don’t like the slipping through the cracks that this thug did. Further, seems this poor girl reported this previously and it took some media exposure to finally get the cops to charge this guy (this is another item to explore once all those involved have testified). Regarding the criminal justice system problems, I don’t have any solution to that, other than reset. Vigilante justice is,just a bad label given to citizens taking out the trash themselves. Government doesn’t like the competition (after all, where would all these drones work if we just took care of it ourselves?)

Epautos, always good debate. Maybe I should put my original post on the daily kos and see how the conversation goes? I suspect no one will link to Lew Rockwell.

Without conventional monopolistic government asserting a transcendant, overriding “authority” on all matters pertaining to justice, one could “take the law into one’s own hands” and wreak havoc on such an offender, and not be stopped by “The Government” the way one is today.

Today, you shoot a home invader and “The Government” throws you in a cage, and lets the home invader sue you for “damages.”

I recently served on a grand jury. One case of “making terrorist threats”. A arrested suspect threatened a police officer with killing him and his family. Fine, no problem. There is another case we want to add a charge of making a terrorist threat to, in this case the suspect threatened a stalking victim (and her daughter) with violence, in such vile language I won’t repeat it. When asking the DA, he didn’t see the need to add that charge. Seems the system, from my limited perspective, want to trump up charges when things occur against police, but citizens, not so much. FYI, I informed the grand jury that we can add the charge, even if the DA doesn’t like it. IMO, the grand jury system generally works. I had my doubts prior to this experience, given all the crap I’ve heard, but in my experience anyways, the vast majority of cases had merit, and the ones that didn’t, or didn’t have sufficient evidence, were dispensed with by the grand jury in short order. A few folks brought their individual preferences to the table, but by and large, a lucid group of individuals. I also learned a lot about criminal behaviors:
1. People on meth do stupid things. Repeatedly.
1a. If you run, don’t run to your relatives residence where they are growing pot outside and inside of the trailer (of course it is a trailer).
1b. Don’t cook meth in a trailer park. With kids in the trailer. While pregnant. Yeesh.
2. Don’t give police a fake name, or ID. They have these things called computers in their car, and it takes 30 seconds to figure out that you are lying.
3. For some reason, cars driven by people doing things they shouldn’t don’t have tags on them. In lesser numbers, their cars don’t have lights on, stop signs and traffic signals are ignored, etc…
4. From what I saw, there are a fair amount of women in abusive relationships, that won’t get away from their abuser for the most part.
5. There are sick people in this world.
6. Prisoners do dumb things.
7. If you live in the hood, and smoke pot, don’t do it in public.
8. Certain hotels are hotbeds of drugs and illegal activities. One hotel came up 8 times in our indictments. Police said it is on their normal route.
9. If you steal a car, make sure it has gas.
10. If you are picked up by police, and they ask your name, and you give them a false name: when the cop asks you, a few times “are you sure that is the name you want to give me?” This means he already knows your real name and is trying to not have to charge you with obstruction in addition to your other pending legal issues.
11. Attention shoplifters, especially at Walmart: don’t run, you are just making a misdemeanor into a felony for the most part. Just take your medicine when caught.
12. Most crime occurs in a relatively small part of town, in our case anyway.
13. Stalkers, some of these guys have way too much free time.
14. Anti stalking laws do not have enough teeth in them, IMO, for some of these predators. There needs to be laws to deal with those whose behavior escalates (becomes more threatening) over time, especially when these psychos are focusing solely on one victim.

This one should be from The Onion, but, frighteningly, it’s not. Cops shoot at an unarmed man. They miss and hit two bystanders. The unarmed man is charged with assault for causing the bystanders to be shot!!!??? The cops are on paid vacation, of course, while their intended victim is facing 25 years in the graybar hotel for their crime. Un-fucking-believable, even in the USSA.

Cops are the enforcement arm of the Mayor’s office, the City Council, sometimes the State Government’s offices. While the mayor and the city council may seem shocked at the actions of cops, it’s the mayor and the city council that allow, condone, and even desire these activities of cops.

“Most of these “boys in blue” have serious mental issues and become cops for
the power it gives them.”

I’ll bet you’re right. I’ve seen videos of cops just going completely berserk over some very mild words from non-cops. The ones who flip out like that sho’nuff have issues.

There’s a video linked in one of the recent posts here that shows a cop flipping out and beating on a guy who said something to him like “hey, you don’t have to get all in my face. I’m a soldier…US Army”

The cop hollers back at him, “Well, I’m a MARINE” and beats the guy down. That NG or Reserve veteran cop who killed the kid who was carrying a BB gun shaped like an AK is apparently about 9 different kinds of fucked up in the head, too.

Just because being a cop is a “dangerous occupation” doesn’t give them an excuse to act like goons and thugs. There’s lots of dangerous occupations out there, ones that are much more dangerous than being a cop. Try being a pizza delivery driver in a large city like I was. You get to go to all kinds of “hood like” neighborhoods and Section 8 housing projects. It’s especially fun at night. I was a much easier target for bad guys than any cop was, at least everybody KNOWS that cops have guns. (They didn’t know I carried a derringer in my pocket. Fortunately I never had to use it.) To my surprise, I found that most people were pretty nice, even in the real bad neighborhoods. Yes, it was somewhat of a dangerous job, but I didn’t get all paranoid about everybody like these steroid freak cops do. They must really be brainwashed and be of very low intelligence, otherwise they’d have a real job. Sounds to me like they can’t handle their emotions too well, like they have mental problems or something, they don’t think rationally like the rest of us do. If they can’t handle it, then they’re in the wrong line of work. It’s kind of like working a construction job with dangerous equipment, which I’ve also done. People would ask me “Doesn’t some of that stuff you work with scare you?” I always answered; “If you’re scared of it, then you shouldn’t be doing it.”

You and Mr Grigg have just made me more paranoid than I already am. Cops give me the jeebers most of the time.

Last week I pulled into the Thriftway for a gallon of milk on the way home and Wallah! in the rearview mirror was the local police with their lights a flashing. A young lady cop came up and tapped on my window. In my rear view mirror was a young boy cop standing kind of passively by my tail gate. When I rolled down my window I said “What can I do for you maam?” She said that they pulled me over for not wearing my seat belt.

Been on a steady diet of Rockwellian anarcho/paranoia for about 6 years now. The second she said seat belt I flew into a Godamn Mother Fucking SonofBitchin screaming cussing rage. I told them that the seat belt laws were originally secondary laws and they had slid the slippery slope into primary laws. I told em they served and protected nobody but the local establishment and I didn’t need them protecting me as I could protect myself just fine. I called em tax parasites, and they ought to rethink their career paths as totalitarian monsters and go get a real job. The whole time I was interlacing GD MF SOB and a steady stream of obscenity’s like Ralphie never even thunk. What was funny was they both just stood there and took it. I gave her my Godamn Insurance Mafia card and my Godamn State permission slip. She brought me back a 10 dollar ticket and then I proceeded to rant about how it wasn’t just about safety but control, conditioning, and revenue. Then I told em to go catch some real GodDamned criminals and quit fucking with a guy trying to buy a Godamn gallon of milk. They forgot to have me sign the ticket. So, I must have had some effect.

Anyhow, all said and done I felt guilty for being so profane as both were probably younger than my son. I also felt bad because I got a Google Ron Paul sticker on the back of my truck. I ain’t the man Ron is and I know he would never swear like that. I was also relieved that I had made it to Bonner Springs and it was not the Kansas City Kansas Cops that had pulled me over as I’d of probably got tazed and beaten.

Wrong, Revo. Here in Victoria it is, get this, a sparkling hefty nigerian tax scam fee of $289, paid to the lying politician of your choice [just jokin], indexed to inflation every SIX months. And say goodbye to 3 of those 12 points on your license!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Naw, just politely ask them whether they-and-or-theirs would like HIV or hepatitus the next time they get near a healthcare professional…be it the doctor/dentist/allergist/etc…or even the pharmacist doing flu shots at the corner Walgreens, Rite-Aid, or CVS. Hmmm.

I got pulled over a month ago. Me: Why did you pull me over?
Him: You don’t have a front license plate.
Me: Well, that is a pretty serious violation. You should hurry up and write me a ticket. Now why did you really pull me over?
Him: Stunned look for about five seconds. As he slowly recovered he said no, really it is against the law not to have one.
Me: Stare at him.
Him: I am letting you go with a warning. Do you have any weapons in the car?

Our neighborhood hires some Sheriff’s deputies to patrol privately.
One of them–a newbie–pulled me over a few weeks ago about my expired slave tag registration.

When he got out of his car he did this hilarious tactical-walk, hugging closely to my bumper, then sidling along the driver’s side of the car before stopping behind my window. I said “Hey, you don’t have to get all tactical and act scared; I’m a peaceful person.” He stuttered a little and said something about “safety.”

I whipped out my license and unconstitutional CHL; he asked if I had a weapon. I said “I’m hurt–of course I have a weapon, this is Texas!”

He relaxed visibly and laughed. We spent five minutes talking about the virtues of various Glocks and parted ways.

I know they’re tax parasites, thieves, brigands, highwaymen–and more often than not actual conscious criminals.

But the few who still have a conscience and are human beings, we need to recruit to our side–quickly. The young military guys in my karate class are more aware than 90% of the general population. One of them has quit, another is waiting 18 months for his term to complete. YES, I know–parasites, killers, brigands, redcoats, etc.

But they’re experienced in combat, they know about the NWO, they know the government’s illegitimate…if/when the shooting starts, won’t it be damned useful to have knowledgeable tacticians on our side?

@meth – I know one PD officer that I think acts like an adult. He is an Iraq vet and complains regularly about his juvenile co-workers and corrupt stat-seeking bosses. Beyond him, no. They are robots who will do what they are told.

Gary,
Logical question, how can the children also be robots?
As I recall, trying to get ALL the kids to do the same thing was usually an exercise in futility… 😉

I think you mean, there’s a fusion of the worst elements of each:
Robotic obeyance of orders, robotic adherence to their dogma without regard to common sense…
Combined with child-like abandon, “immortality” complex (or God complex), no fear of results (can’t think in terms of response to actions or long-term results. Long term = 10 minutes or so); and the viciousness and sadism inherent in the uncivilized brute-child, similar to a child psycopath who tortures animals for fun.

Bad mix – no wonder so many police act like animals. They can get away with it, and they don’t think people will (eventually) come gunning for them.
Nor do they care about THAT scenario.

Ed, I have a little insight on that shitstorm scenario. It can often go something like this “Hey, did you see how that old boy looked at me when I said —–?”, Uh huh. “What do you think he was thinking?” “It ain’t good as I see it”. “Yep, me too”.
I never realized how many crooked, duplicitous sumbitches there are you meet every day till I started trucking. I just don’t think in the rip-off way but I must be in fairly shy company. I have made totally innocuous statements and people would give me a look and then proceed to screw me as hard as they could. It sometimes takes a long while to even remotely figure out what they were thinking. I finally realized so many people I knew and dealt with were always looking for the backside of everything. I still can’t think that way and realized it’s hardwired, not something that will change in you. It’s what makes a cop a cop and a thief a thief and commonly both in the same body.

A group of the world’s wealthiest and most powerful men, who are themselves tied into law enforcement agencies and criminal underworlds alike, and who also control the international media with their billions, have devised the ultimate entertainment for themselves – simply referred to as “The Tournament” – which takes place at intervals of every seven or ten years.

“Contestants” volunteer, but due to the nature of the tournament are some of the toughest or craziest individuals on the planet – they are expected to kill, and only the last surviving combatant will win the cash prize of £10 million offered by William Randolph Hearst. The men and women running the tournament not only view it as entertainment, but also bet high stakes on the outcome.[4]

For each tournament, combatants are selected from the world’s special forces, serial killers, athletes, trained contract killers and assassins. The last combatant standing receives not only the cash prize, but also the glory and reputation of having the title of World’s Number 1, and which itself carries the legendary million-dollar-a-bullet contract killing price tag. Each of the contestants carries a tracking device, embedded under their skin, allowing the observers to monitor their movements, and the contestants to track each other. The tournament lasts twenty-four hours, and if no-one has won, then the tracking devices will explode.

The mayhem which takes place is passed off as natural disasters, terrorist outrages, accidents, or put down to rampages committed by lone madmen. The unsuspecting towns where the tournament takes place are randomly selected, and the public never know of its existence. This year, the latest tournament has come to Middlesbrough, a town in the United Kingdom – the country with the most prevalent mass surveillance in the world – so that the events of the tournament can be easily followed and recorded through the ever-present CCTV as well as satellite surveillance.

It’s ironic. Socialists love to resort to coercion to “bring people together.”

Cue: Hillary’s “It takes a village” drivel.

In fact of course, coerced “togetherness” in its myriad forms, including racial quotas, affirmative action, income redistribution, yadda yadda, will only have precisely the opposite effect.

It can only generate resentment, hostility, hatred, and sabotage any spontaneous goodwill among men that would have otherwise arisen as a by product of voluntary, mutually beneficial social and economic interaction.

There will of course be toxic personalities in any society, even market anarchist ones. But I feel certain that our coercion based society manufactures the sort of mutual suspicion you spoke of.

On Hillary and her ilk and the resentment they stir up against themselves, her kind of toxic personality is safer if they would stay out of government. If Hillary was just a private citizen, the resentment she arouses in others would result in shunning, or maybe a mild ass-whipping. Somebody mught want to pull her hair or something like that.

Once one of her kind gains any authority, the resentment they arouse is the more deadly kind. I’ve seen so many people commenting online about her who expressed the desire to kill her in some painful fashion. I can’t fault them for their feelings.

Ed, I came to understand those who are looking to take advantage of you in any way are the very people who think everybody thinks like them. They don’t understand honesty. It’s lost on them. Speak what’s in your heart and they’re trying to figure what sort of scam you’re trying to pull. All too often the very people you ‘think’ you have common interests with are simply plotting to take you any way they can. You think someone is brought up right but it’s only after they prove you wrong you imagine things must have been much different than you observed. It’s weird too.

Police have a on job death rate 1/2 that of average Americans. Leading cause is car accidents. That they are Looters in the fact that their entire income cis derived from government theft from others and that much of their equipment is paid for by further looting as with violations and Civil Forfeiture it can be interpreted that they are enforcers and have your worst interest in mind when you are forced to interact with them. Everyone should read Boston T Parties excellent “You and the Police”. Never talk to a cop especially if you are innocent . PS they are allowed to lie by law just like congress and presidents.

Great article and so true. Today I fear my government and its Police state more than any external threat. Our founders warned us about the enemy within and our government has turned the war on terror inwards. The fact that a cop standing 6’5″ tall weighing 250 lbs can claim he actually fears an elderly woman and grandmother and then proceeds to taze her because she said she was leaving the station, proves beyond a shadow of doubt that the police and those who gave them the authority, pose the biggest threat to a free nation (which is long gone now).

We are seeing the infancy stage of a 21st century version of the Chekas who were deployed in the Soviet Union in 1917.

Anyone remember that incident in California where cops shot a 13 year old kid carrying a fake rifle?

I was discussing the case at work (I’m an ER nurse) and was HORRIFIED to see my fellow professionals argue that “you weren’t there. The cop was justified in shooting the kid”. Pointing out that “kid wasn’t pointing the rifle at anyone.” and “Kid didn’t open fire” and “cops barely gave him any warning” didn’t deter them. It was the same “You weren’t there. You don’t know”.

Even shooting an unarmed CHILD doesn’t seem to bother them one bit.

I think of this story everytime I wonder how in the hell could all those medical people participate in violating that poor man with multiple enemas and a colonoscopy! I feel ‘tainted by association’.

Hi Spook. This is why I only discuss “other than work things” with a few select individuals. Just because you/I work somewhere and see things clearly doesn’t mean our co-workers do. It’s sad really. If these cops did feel threatened they wouldn’t have rolled up on the kid. They would have kept a safe distance and used their megaphone. I believe they saw a weaker target and took advantage. Similar to my 60lb dog going after a 10lb dog or other small animal.

Christ, you’d think the guy would choose something a little harder to shoot down! He’s the best-behaved progressive I’ve met because he knows he can’t win in that crowd. Probably helps that we’re all armed, too.

Guess I’m lucky to have fallen into this gig.

Seems like there’s a strong libertarian streak in most programmers; it’s a systems thing. We spend all day thinking through how the systems we write work, what the consequences are, what the boundaries are and how the pieces interact.

Take that mindset and apply it to politics and economics and the truth becomes self-evident pretty fast.

I remember that story about the kid, and your coworkers responses are disgusting, but not surprising. That’s still how the general public feels about mainstream media stories. If the propaganda machine doesn’t blatantly tell them what to think of something (or only offer two different viewpoints that people “must” side with) then the sheeple public will recite it and not think twice. It’s just like the sheeple publics in the books “Farenheit 451”, “1984”, and “Brave New World”.

Also, Mossad Ayoob is a cop, plain and simple. There are a lot of youtube preppers who are cops and former cops and it is funny and disgusting to watch them speak about some freedom, then go on and on about the “good” members of government. It’s really simple: anyone who works for the government is a part of the problem, no matter what mental gymnastics they try to play to convince themselves and others that they are “good”… if people see the government as corrupt, they should do everything they can to not support it, and that can start as easily as quitting their bullshit government job and getting a real job like the rest of us. They think that because they are within government they can play both sides of the fence because they’re cowards.

You don’t go far enough with the “anyone who works for the government is part of the problem” stuff.

UNDERSTAND THIS!!!

EVERYONE who receives ANY check/benefit/pay/consideration/tax-deferment/welfare/ssi/section-8/obamaphone/etc from ANY local/regional/state/federal/etc entity of “government”…..

EVERY ONE…

CAUSES, ENCOURAGES, and INCENTIVIZES the government to continue its LOOTING.

Put another way, if the government serves up cups of babies blood and people take the cup and drink it…eventually those same blood-suckers will have THEIR children/grandchildren/great-grandchildren BLOODLETTED.

Which is why this whole sorry mess is the people getting what the people voted for…good and hard.

The mental contortions and acrobatics to defend the totally indefensible; what a cop-sucking boot-licker he is! Dear God I feel sick just having read it–because I fear the millions of others who “think” in exactly the same way.

These god-damned idiots and their normalcy bias, their cowardly clinging to their neat little Gunsmoke world and its sordid noble lie underbelly, are leading us all into a hell of their passive-aggressive creation.

So keep telling yourself the lie, Massad. Convince yourself. Massage the lie, polish the turd until your hands are covered in shit.

To a friend, I made the statement that “especially in this case, police should be held accountable for anything that happens once they take a person into custody as they are claiming power and authority over you and removing your ability to control your own destiny.”

“You weren’t there. You don’t know”. A friend spewed this nonsense in defense of his assertion that the cop acted properly.

Neither asking “Were you? Do you?”, nor pointing out that his statement had nothing to do with my initial stated premiss, made any impact and he continued to bleat on about how he ‘knew’ the cop acted appropriately.

The unbelievable part is that this is the same person I had to bail out of jail and take to the doctor for the beating he received from the police over a roach in his car ashtray. Of course, because it happened to him, the police were in the wrong.

It’s fucking hopeless, people are simply too narcissistic or ignorant of reality. Bring on the life ending comet, let nature try again.

Exactly. I see that over and over again. It’s my ‘those bad people over there’ theory. People expect law enforcement and laws to restrain those bad people over there but not them, not the good people. They are conditioned to selective enforcement. It won’t happen to them but the laws are needed to be used on people who deserve it. But now ‘good people’ are getting selected. How they react is odd…. it’s always a bad cop, a mistake, they go to the media like that too… it’s just an error. The media often ‘fixes it’ extending the perception. See the system ‘works’. The delusion goes on.

I have written quite a bit about cops over the years. (For example- http://blog.kentforliberty.com/2013/10/cops-are-cowards.html)
One of the most hilarious responses from the cops or copsuckers goes along the lines of: “Just wait until you call the police to come save your worthless butt and then see how you feel about cops!” Yeah… there’s no situation so awful it can’t be made worse by inviting a badge-monkey to join. No thanks.
You might enjoy this video I made:

If they are “inches” off your bumper, they are already in violation of the Law – just tap your brakes and make them hit you …. they are at fault for following too closely.
If anyone asks, a cat ran out in front of you … tell them to prove it didn’t, no ever sees cats anyway.

While the job of a police officer can occasionally be dangerous, for the vast majority of time it isn’t. In fact as occupations go, they aren’t even in the top 10 of jobs that have the highest rates of injury or death on the job. Not even in the top 10. Farmers have always lead the list followed by dock workers, pipe fitters, construction workers, and even firemen. There is no reason these guys need to go around like poopy-pants bed wetters shaking in their boots every time they interact with citizens. Look up the list and keep it in your pocket to show an officer the next time he/she complains how dangerous the job is. If they don’t like their job they should quit and do something else.

My cousin, who was as good as a brother when we were growing up, is now a cop. I used to think he’s one of the good ones. He has ascended in the department to Captain (the fact that they use military type rank is telling) and is in charge of training for all the cops. Their behavior belies my notion that he’s one of the good ones because he’s obviously training them in the doctrine of “Us vs. Them.” He has expounded to me the holy mission that he thinks they’re on and they put themselves in harms way to keep me safe and that “membership has it’s priveleges.” I have told him that the reason cops have a dangerous job is because they continue to do things that make people want them dead. Although most of the family bows down to his badge, I cannot respect what he does. We don’t get along as well as we used to.

Of course, when push comes to shove, we’re not powerless. We lawful citizens outnumber criminal cops* by at least 100 to 1, and though they have more high-tech weaponry, we have more arms in total. My take is that citizens are eventually going to get fed up with being treated like chattel by the criminal gang in blue. When that happens, the results won’t be pretty, and cops will have no one but themselves to blame (which won’t, of course, stop the marauding idiots from screaming, yet again, what “victims” they are).

I make this prediction not because I’m hoping for violence, but because I’m hoping that cops (and courts) will get a clue before America devolves to one-on-one armed confrontations. So far, of course, the thugs show no signs of doing anything but digging in their heels and getting MORE lawless day by day. I’m surprised that citizens have tolerated it to the extent they have, but it cannot and will not last forever.

*I include in the term “criminal cops” ALL policemen/women, because they ALL either commit serious crimes themselves or cover up for other cops who do. And they ALL enforce illegitimate laws, which no one has an obligation to tolerate.

I’ve already made the calculation that it’s worth “eluding” – that is, running from a cop – whenever you’re driving (or riding) faster than 80 MPH because in my state, anything over 80 is an automatic “reckless driving” charge. That is a major bust – mandatory court appearance and strong likelihood you’ll lose your driving “privileges” for at least a few months, as well as be fined exorbitantly by the state and then screwed royally by the insurance mafia when they find out about it. You’re looking at the very real prospect of several thousand bucks ripped from your backside.

This provides a strong incentive to go for it – and we’re only talking about financial incentives.

With ass rape now an entirely reasonable fear, the incentive to flee – or even fight, if it comes down to it – has been ratcheted up significantly.

It’s bad news for all concerned – but cops are too dumb to realize it and the politicians think they’re immune from blowback.

“How do you fight a man without fear? You put the fear BACK INTO HIM.”
re: Daredevil, the man without fear.

Politicians aren’t even Daredevil…
And they are FAR more vulnerable, since as a rule they use their position to get “things” (and get away with things) the rest of us wouldn’t think of – we’re just not that twisted.
Not just minor fetishes, but – prostitution and drugs are the big two, followed closely by tax evasion. (Parking tickets and such are so mundane we won’t bother with them.)
You also hear about cover-ups for murder now and then. How many are never noticed?

Politicians need to be considered frontline troops as well. Cops are the Grunts, if you will; Pols would be the NCOs.
Bilderberges, Trilaterals, all those types – essentially all big industry moguls, like the Bankers, but also people like Billy Gates, UN “diplomats” (One of THE WORST offenders in almost every way of vicitimizing humans – sex slavery, promotion of war, starving people to death, sending bad vaccines to developing countries, ensuring dictators stay in power, supplying arms to despots, “educating” children in the agitprop swill we believe in the US [promoting the same problems to take root elsewhere]… That’s just off the top of my head. They drag behind on anything that would help their fellow man, but race ahead on everything that’s going to harm others…)

We have allowed “Economic Man” to flourish since Caine and Abel.
Remember who killed whom: Cain – the FARMER – killed Abel, the herder.
The “peaceful, community-based farmer” is a myth. The “peaceful Vegetarian” is the first murderer….

And who did he kill, but the meat-eater….

Wolves realize they are being hunted, and then hunt the hunter. Vegetarians aren’t good hunters… And when it’s out int he open, it’s easy to deal with the predator (vegetarian), who is doing everything “for the good of mankind” – and thus never even hears his conscience, because it’s silent. He is acting as God’s Chosen (Obamessiah). He is selfless (doing all his murder and oppression “for the Father[land]”)… and if he fails, it is because the forces of “evil” [that’d be US] can’t see what’s “good” or “right.” If we were only as “generous” and “Moral” as this individual, we’d live inside the laws all the time.

This of course ignores the fact that, if we WERE that perfect, there’d be no NEED for laws – not even the Big One (Golden Rule, and it’s corollary), let alone the Ten Commandments. Or Roman Law, or the Code of Hammurabi, or even the Constitution, let alone Bill of Rights, let alone all the law since then.
It is the “imperfection” that drives these people.
Yet it is the imperfection that makes us human, and makes us beautiful.

Quick example: One of the prettiest girls I knew had a chipped tooth. One of her front incisors had been broken.
Normally, something like that would make me look the other way – but with her, it was that imperfection that made her HOT. She was pretty, of course – but almost too good, too sweet. The imperfection made her attractive in a way that would be impossible with perfect teeth.

Anyone else notice that the heavier girls tend to have better personalities? I don’t mean (what passes for) BBWs, just the girl who deosn’t have that hourglass shape and 20% body fat. (20% for women is about minimum safe healthy range.)

(“BBW”s tend to be obese these days – as in, the morbidly obese look thin by comparison. WTF?)

[Politicians] use their position to get “things” (and get away with things) the rest of us wouldn’t think of – we’re just not that twisted. Not just minor fetishes, but – prostitution and drugs are the big two, followed closely by tax evasion.

I’m certainly not going to defend politicians, who are all murderers, thieves, and control freaks, but unless I’m misunderstanding you, you’re listing prostitution, drugs, and tax evasion as vices. They’re all illegal, and I definitely don’t want government thugs getting away with breaking laws that we mere mundanes will be reamed for, but I don’t consider honest prostitution (service rendered for remuneration given), responsible drug use, or evading the taxes of the criminal government to be vices.

Many things are “vices” by my evaluation – in my case, my vices are the gym, Starbucks coffee, and women.
The gym, I like lifting – to the exclusion of a lot of other activities – leaving me somewhat strong, but big, slow, and still fat. (I’m doing a lot wrong.)
Starbucks, too expensive to be an ongoing vice – and bad both for health, and because of their politics. (Like whether I carry a weaon or not is any of their business. And if you know how to kill a person with your bare hands, are you a weapon, and should leave yourself at home when you partake of their coffee? Maybe we draw the line at knives? Do they allow police in? All rhetorical, of course.)

Women, well – candy-coated cyanide, we wake up after it’s too late.
Most men who accomplished anything of note did it before getting married, and I understand why – woman is BEYOND a vice. You don’t pay the prostitute for the sex, but to LEAVE afterwards.

Now, your point still stands – that things can be used safely in moderation, and perhaps I called out behaviors that I shouldn’t really be worried about – but the double standard is a horror, and should be acknowledged, and dealt with.
If it’s good for the King, it’s good for me.
If it’s NOT good for me, it’s probably NOT good for the King, too.
For the religious, that could be extended to Christ’s admonishment, “Pick up your cross and follow me.” It could even be literally what’s necessary.

We’d have parallel meaning to my commentary if Christ were the executioner: THEY can do as they wish, while WE pay the price, up to and including death.
THEY are the Kings, we are the serfs who live and die at their whim.
Q.V. Japanese Samurai Sword-testing. (A Samurai could legally kill a peasant for an affront to the Samurai’s honor.)

As for prostitution, like drugs, never done it. But I see no reason to outlaw it. If she wants to, and he wants to, why interfere? Not like Marriage the Institution is worth much these days – FOR THE SAME REASON, Government’s nose is too far up everyone’s anal sphincter – and it shouldn’t be part of the deal.

The difference between him buying her a fancy dinner or a fur coat, and a prostitute taking dollars is – the prostitute admits she’s after money. The “lady” may well renege on the sex end of the deal, and we men are supposed to suck it up.

Drugs? I used to have issues with it. In some ways, still do: I am VERY against the addiction aspect, and aiding the addiction is an issue. Enslaving others to a substance (money, say) is the same, regardless of the substance. But use, by itself? Not a big deal, as long as you don’t harm others. No different from drinking in your home.

As for taxes, they are theft, so I have a BIG issue with evading taxes – because it’s only of value to the TRULY wealthy (and powerful) to avoid the tax payments. If we all suffer, the revolution comes faster. If WE are the only ones to suffer, then THEY owe us – taxes at the least.
If it costs me $1500 to get back $1500 in taxes – I’m breaking even. I’ll go to H&R Blockheads and do my taxes for $50, and hope. For someone who brings in $250,000 (salary) + bennies ($50K, call it) + lifetime security detail (Costing probably $100K/year) + lifetime pay security – and that’s WITHOUT anything on the 1099 or (whatever the third filing option is, I forget how it’s done) – for them, even if they spend $15K – they’ll avoid taxes on $50K or more, easily. and then they have contacts who can make life miserable for anyone who digs… So they are audit-proof.
That’s just Salary and Imputed Income. Hitlary brought in $450K recently – for _A_ speaking engagement. SINGULAR.

Wish I could make that much – IN A YEAR.

I think vices are only an issue when you get to the point they dominate your life. If you control the vices, like smoking – it can be used to better your life. Like candy – if you eat candy occasionally, it’s good. If you eat it all day, every day, you won’t have time to regret – your teeth and body will decay out from under you. If you hit 3 prostitutes a day, you’ll likely die of something – exertion, if nothing else. 😉

Make any sense at all? 🙂 I’m tired today (Back in the orifice) and want nothing more than to jump on a bike and ride west. Might even stop when the engine gets wet…

As of 1-Jan-14, the state of Illinois is making 26 over punishable by 6 months in jail and/or some big fine. Now that wouldn’t sound so horribly bad if the speed limit were say 70 or 75mph or 80mph…. but in Illinois we still live in the NMSL era. Some limited access highways, even interstates, are posted with 45mph speed limits. That’s right, 71mph on a limited access highway at 2am with nobody around is 6 months in jail. Life altering penalties for doing something that isn’t even remotely risky let alone a real crime.

“As of 1-Jan-14, the state of Illinois is making 26 over punishable by 6 months in jail and/or some big fine. Now that wouldn’t sound so horribly bad if the speed limit were say 70 or 75mph or 80mph…. but in Illinois we still live in the NMSL era. Some limited access highways, even interstates, are posted with 45mph speed limits. That’s right, 71mph on a limited access highway at 2am with nobody around is 6 months in jail. Life altering penalties for doing something that isn’t even remotely risky let alone a real crime.”

One must wonder, why would anybody with any respect for individual liberty ever reside or even drive through Illinois? After all, Illinois has graced us with Lincoln, Daly and Obama. Illinois is a festering swamp of tyranny and has been for a long, long time. When the grand experiment finally fails, what was Illinois should contain all the tyrannical detritus of failed state worship….sort of like quarantining the people infected with a plague.

I don’t advocate, for both practical and principled reasons, that people should start taking violent acts against LEOs, bureaucrats and pols. That time may come, but it must be preceded by generic violence against large groups or it has no hope of succeeding. That said, anybody who is not prepared in terms of food security, arms and ammo and a plan will simply perish rapidly when the SHTF.

People have mentioned Unintended Consequences but folks could also benefit from reading Black Arrow…..fun fiction, and of course flawed but what the heck. Finally, when people give me the same tired old shit about not voting, I simply reply that I’ll vote when the PTB put forth a referendum making politicians, and all government employees legal game animals, with a bounty rewarded based on possible harm to human liberty that the pol or govemp could do in their daily positions. I’ll guarantee that such an approach would solve a passel of problems in a single month…..

I don’t know what its like elsewhere, but here in Communist Minnesota, running from the bad guys is now a FELONY. If you resist officer friendly, you will lose all your “privileges”. Good thing I gave up caring long ago and learned to fight dirty!

Felony evasion, and I think it’s universal. I know NJ and NY have that.

Think of it this way: The more felons you have, the fewer people who can legally own guns.
You also destroy their entire bloodline, by making the next generation more likely to engage in criminal activities (can’t get “legit” jobs as easily with a conviction on your record).
As an example, I’m in IT. Performance Engineers aren’t usualy trusted with sensitive data anyway (if you have proper safeguards and security.) I’m OK with that – makes sense, you scramble information, you get the whole thing to work. It’s volume of actions, not details, that matter. If John Smith isn’t John Smith, we don’t care.

But with a criminal conviction (felony) on my record? Especially for “hacking”? I can’t work any more. I have limited skills outside of IT.

So, to put food on the table, I either turn to crime, or work whatever low-end job I can get.
Think this through: How many people are essentially DOA in the job market because of this sort of crap?
Doesn’t affect those in politics, of course, but nothing ever does. They are immune from our problems, and don’t understand we don’t ALL have paid security staff.

Excellent point Jean. I saw a lot of hard working people get turned away from low end gas station jobs (I used to do maintenance at gas stations) just because of a felony. Not to mention, when they get thrown in jail for months because of their bullshit DUI or joint of weed (that they thought they could admit to having to get a more lenient punishment…) they lose their current job, can’t pay their bills, and their credit score goes in the toilet. A felony conviction AND a bad credit score? Time to attempt to make a living “illegally”… And, of course, that’s exactly what the government wants…so they can have an excuse to build more prisons and enslave more people.

The core problem is not cops … but loss of the ‘Rule-of-Law’ in America.

Rule-of-Law demands that everyone is equal under the law — and that absolutely nobody is ‘above’ the law. Yet it’s painfully obvious that cops, judges, prosecutors routinely conduct themselves above & outside the laws that are strictly enforced against ordinary citizens.

This bizarre legal concept is known as total or partial “immunity” before the law, for most of the ‘government’ people in the American “justice” system. It is a direct contradiction & violation of the Rule-of-Law.

These “immunity protections” were invented out of thin air by American judges (government legal bureaucrats), with no basis whatsoever.
Originally, judges just granted themselves immunity to normal laws in the conduct of their official duties — but that gradually extended to cops, prosecutors, and all sorts of government officials. How convenient — those enforcing the law exempt themselves from the law.

If the laws applied equally to everybody– the abusive-cop problem would go away. Fix the core problem… not the symptom.

Everyone cannot be ‘equal’ under the law. Those who administer the law will always be ‘ more equal’ You cannot ever make that not so. Get rid of government, get rid of law and establish voluntary community covenants. Nazi Germany is a perfect historical example of ‘ rule of law’.

Bobby, Ed, yall hit the nail on the head. As much as Joe wants to paint himself as another victim, it don’t fly with me. How many countless victims of his have had their lives and livelihood cut short by him and his cohorts? So he didn’t personally shoot someone or use the DA’s office to rob them? I’m not impressed by his ‘turn or heart” so to speak involving LEAP. I know some of those dicks. I don’t intend to give them a bye now that they’ve “seen the light”. Fuck ’em, I saw the light as a teenager trying to keep from being a statistic for LBJ’s war on ‘communists”. It’s always some thing or some person but the truth is, it’s always some asshole who wants to steal from his fellow man to line his pockets.

“Everyone cannot be ‘equal’ under the law. Those who administer the law will always be ‘ more equal’ You cannot ever make that not so. ”

Exactly.

That’s why I stopped invoking “The Rule of Law” as something just and fair.

It is sold as something that can be just and fair. But the reality is that it never can be. The structural arrangement of law enforcers vs. law abiders precludes it from being so from the very the get go.

It is basically like a ball game played by two teams, but the members of one team are also the referees.

Statutory law and conventional monopolistic government is structurally defective, and eventually leads to something like the current Amerikan police state.

Cops may not be the “core problem” or the root cause but they are the first line of defense for those who are at the root of the problem. For all intents and purposes, cops are THE problem. The tyrants can’t exercise any form of tyranny without their guard dogs. Cops are their guard dogs.

It happened to a woman who was in Britain in July 2012 attending a training course for Ryanair whom she worked for. She suffered a panic attack, and called the police, who placed her in a psychiatric facility.

When she asked to be allowed to return to her hotel, she was instead put in restraints and committed to the facility against her will. Justice Mostyn then gave social workers authorization to forcibly deliver the baby she was carrying at a nearby hospital while she was unconscious.

It’s incidents like this that have to be punished by old-school community justice. Her relatives, or young single boyfriend, need to step up and hunt down the functionaries responsible for this.

Step One: get the baby back
Step Two: ensure the actors can’t act again
Step Three: get out of Dodge.

I can’t see any other path. This one happened in the UK, but our CPS is every bit as rapacious–and the statistics are horrifying. Kids in CPS “care” are seven times as likely to be sexually abused, two-thirds are on psychotropic drugs (kids as young as three on anti-psychotics)…

Right now my two clearest “you will not pass” lines are my kids and my guns. Come for either one, and it’s ON.

The half kidding part is that of nobody wants to see people victimized.

The half serious part is that however indirectly, they created their own victimization.

Anyone who supports the system of government that is in place, actively by “voting” or passively by not rejecting the very concept of “government,” has contributed, however unwittingly, to government’s existence and atrocities.

“Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard.”
– H. L. Mencken

What is someone supposed to do if someone in their family is murdered? I’m not kidding here, I’m dead serious. Yeah, the system is screwed up, but are people supposed to just let people get away with murder if they don’t manage to stop them when they first attempt the deed?

What’s a market anarchist to do in a situation like this? The market can’t handle it right now, because government is actively preventing it from doing so.

History has shown the viability of this, too; the best example of a pure libertarian system in actual practice was medieval Iceland. If someone killed your brother, you’d take care of it, or enlist your protection service. You could “sell” the bond to a service and they’d hunt the guy down, etc.

As I see it, everyone would enroll in the protection, arbitration, and reputation agencies of their choice. You’d contractually agree to the terms–laws, regulations, terms of service, etc. There would be cross-agency arbitration of course. The basic laws would come straight out of Natural Law via Common Law, because those are the only laws that are truly laws, anyway.

There would be variations of course. But I think Neal Stephenson’s Snow Crash and The Diamond Age give a very good sketch of what such interlocking private concerns would look like.

I remember how glad I was to read about the medieval Icelandic Republic, aka Icelandic Commonwealth.

Learning that bona fide market anarchism actually worked, in real life, for three centuries, and not just in theory, is what turned the trick. It is what finally convinced me to reject minarchism totally and cease treating market anarchism as a desirable but possibly infeasible ideal.

Looking back, I realize I shouldn’t have needed it. A priori logic should have been sufficient to confirm that the market counterparts could work, therefore would work.

Just goes to show how formidable a psychological obstacle Cognitive Dissonance can be.

Bevin, Methylamine, that Iceland example is seriously distorted. Not only was there a serious original sin in setting it up from the Norse wiping out the previous inhabitants (mostly Irish monks), but also there was a continuing oppression in the form of slavery that lasted for a fair while (genetic and genealogical studies have shown that today’s Icelanders are descended from Scandinavia in the male line, but half or more from Ireland in the female line; the slaves mostly came from Ireland, either directly or via slaves brought from earlier island settlements like Orkney, Shetland or the Faeroes). It’s like the freedom of the Cossacks resting on their collaboration in a larger repressive structure.

I agree with everything you said there. The market should replace the government. Period, full stop. Although I do not claim to be an expert on how this could work, I absolutely agree with it. My problem is not how justice could be provided without government. And its pretty clear that the government doesn’t provide much justice anyway.

What I’m asking is, what do you do NOW.

Say a family member gets murdered. Right NOW there are no free market alternatives to the police. There should be, but the government doesn’t allow them. So… if somebody gets shot by armed robbers in your house, what else are you gonna do but call the police? And if, heaven forbid, those officers decide to do something to you rather than hunt down the perpetraitors, how are you in any way responsible for that?

Then–what do we do NOW? If my family were killed and I was less than certain the miscreants would be caught and killed…sorry scratch that. I am certain they will not be caught and killed in a timely fashion, and that even if they are, others will be victimized to pay for their lengthy multiple trials and incarceration.

If I were certain of their identities I’d kill them myself. Hiring someone is too risky. The system is too broken. Yes–that makes me a “vigilante”; but when the system is this broken I won’t have my dignity and sense of justice insulted.

OK… vigilante justice… I get what you’re saying. I understand why you’d resort to that. But obviously there’s a huge risk of getting charged for murder yourself by the authorities. Not to mention that the person never got to stand trial (Which is exactly the problem I have with the Seal Team Six assassinating Bin Laden, he was probably guilty but he nonetheless had a right to a trial.) If the murder is going to be legally let go, like if a coop murders someone, I’d be a little more sympathetic, but I have a hard time with vigilante justice when it comes to a potential murderer that actually CAN be punished by the system.

Now, personally, if one of you went before a court for vigilante killing someone who murdered one of your friends or family members, and there was a reasonable degree of certainty that the person you vigilante killed was guilty of murder, I’d vote to acquit you. But I don’t think its fair to say that someone who takes a different “Less bad” action and calls the cops in that situation “deserves what they get” if the officer is on a power trip that day. I don’t think that’s fair. I doubt more than 1% of the population would stand with me and acquit yo if you did something like that, and even for me my moral opinion is somewhat mixed, leaning negative. Personally, I’d seriously consider vigilante justice if it was a murderer who was legally protected. Maybe even a lesser crime. If my mom or some other woman who is in close relation to me was strip searched by those cops in Texas, I’d seriously consider doing something. But personally, if the crime actually is illegal and will actually be dealt with in court (ie. “mundane” murderers) I would probably call the police. I’m no fan of them, but it seems like a less bad option than throwing my life away through vigilante justice or letting the murderers go. Is there a chance that it would backfire for me? Yeah, there is. Would I really blame a fellow market anarchist for doing something different? Nope. Would I prefer private justice systems? Of course. chooose to walk around Yemen or Pakistan while being a 16+ male you somehow “deserve” to get drone bombed.

I am of course looking at the most understandable of scenarios in which a libertarian might call the cops here. If Bevin were talking about someone who called to report his neighbor because he was smoking marijuana or breaking a local fireworks ordinance, I’d be more inclined to agree with what he posted. But he didn’t say “People who report victimless criminals” he said “People who call the cops”. Period. No conditions. And that, with all due respect, I cannot agree with.

I personally would not call the cops. Because I have come to understand the reality of law enforcement (and the court system) in modern-day America. It is corrupt, capricious – and can very easily turn on you. I do not look to police for protection. Nor to the courts for justice.

Those who do are free to so choose, if that is their wish.

Any person who is victimized – whether by a common thug or one in a government costume – has my sympathy.

But having taken the red bill a long time ago, I no longer have any illusions about the true nature of the system.

David asked, “I would probably call the police. I’m no fan of them, but it seems like a less bad option than throwing my life away through vigilante justice or letting the murderers go. Is there a chance that it would backfire for me?”

An Italian woman was forcibly sedated and had her child taken from her womb by caesarean section without her knowledge or consent.”

This represents a fine example of why I’ll never again willingly set foot on English soil. And, the English people are to blame for putting up with this shite…..they’ve sheepishly put up with it for decades….if one wants to see the future of the U.S.A., have a glance and England…..

I wonder if iodine deficiency could partially explain why cops (and cop apologist) are, the way they are?

“There is major evidence that most Americans are
presently eating too little Iodide to suppress the
development of minder kinds of mental dysfunctions
such as our current epidemics of attention deficit
disorders, depressions, drug dependencies, obesity, and
wide-spread failures to fall and stay faithfully in love with
our mates. ” …

I’ve been taking a good general multi-trace-mineral supplement for a few years. I also started our family on Real Salt; it’s the American equivalent of Himalayan sea salt…full of good trace minerals and iodine.

About six months ago I started on a standard iodine/iodide supplement, and a couple of weeks traded that for nascent iodine.

You’ll be amazed at the mental clarity and overall improvement in wakefulness and vigor.

Once I started the trace minerals and iodine, I dropped even more fat weight without trying.

The dirty secret is that iodine isn’t just for your thyroid gland; there are dozens of tissues, mostly glandular, that need the stuff. Okinawans who get plenty from their seafood/seaweed diet suffer much less prostate, breast, and colon cancer than we do.

Here’s another scary thought: the government used to recommend iodine in the salt and bread. It still does for salt; but in bread, they took the iodine out and replaced it with bromine! Check your bread; last I looked at standard grocery-store bread it contained “brominated wheat flour”.

Now for the fluoride in the water–first used by the Soviets and Nazis in prison-camp water to induce docility in the prisoners.

Now look at the periodic table–yep, fluorine, bromine, and iodine are all halogens and guess what else? Yep, the body is none too finicky; if it’s starved for iodine, the receptors will accept substitutes…bromine and fluorine.

There’s a term for kids who are brain-damaged at birth and early childhood by hypo-thyroidism; it’s called cretinism, and it’s a permanent disability.

So why are the elites so keen to put anti-iodine halogens in our bodies?

Crikey… thanks for the update on bromine. Thank Elvis, we’ve been shunning mass-produced/processed food of any type for several years. And our well water has no fluoride. Perhaps that’s why I’m “selfish” and “angry”!

I need to take more days off. Marinating at EPAutos the last few days has done wonders for my mental health!

I don’t know much about bee pollen, except that it’s a good source of B vitamins and helps with allergies–especially if it’s locally sourced.

Other than that, nothing.

Of all the actions I’ve taken to take my health back and remove myself from the “health care” system, the absolute best has been going primal. I remember we had a thread on this…you’re eating primal too right? I’m not fanatical about it; I eat yogurt and some other “off-program” stuff. But I avoid wheat and other grains like the plague they are.

I wonder if the Romans knew what wheat does to people? The opiate-like effect, the stupefying effect of carbohydrates? Panem et circenses

Whey protein, coconut oil, iodine, trace minerals. Eggs out the whazzoo. Grass-fed beef…I hooked up with a rancher at our local farmer’s market. The stuff’s unbeatable.

meth, we went primal too. I fear I still get gluten in beer though. Having said that, I have gone back to basics, switched to Wild Turkey. That’s my evening thing allows me to ameliorate pain, allows sleep. I need to make my own beer. Some black beers would be considered health food without the alcohol. I have no problem drinking black beer without alcohol, just nobody makes it. A week ago we made a ham pot pie with asparagus, cream of chicken and cream of mushroom soup, mushrooms( used the water off the mushrooms instead of milk), chunked up ham, onion, garlic, jalos(sauteed the last three), and supposed to have drop biscuits so I used rice flour and the drop biscuits were great. I’ll use that drop biscuit recipe again the next time I just gotta have some.

Wheat in Roman times was different than today’s wheat. Today’s wheat is some man made cross breed that is good for mechanical farming and supposedly has negative features for people who eat it.

I have trouble with wheat, rye, etc being generically bad since people have eaten these things for a very long time but the issues people are having fairly recent. IMO it has to be something with the industrial food system rather than grains generically.

Although since I pretty much stopped eating rye (hadn’t eaten much wheat for years) I can wear my old 34″ waist pants again. No mood/mental improvements though.

BrentP, no long grain wheat left now. It’s all a short stalk cross developed for the starving masses in the 60 and 70’s. Wheat’s never been that good for you but the wheat we have now really isn’t. Had my pants slide off recently, a good thing.

The pre-1960’s varieties still exist. Have an acquaintance who is arranging to bring a shipping container full back from Italy. In Italy, a couple hundred feet of altitude changes growing conditions enough that the new hybrids never gained a foothold.

He has farmers waiting to plant the stuff. The awareness is growing and the pent-up demand might reverse the trend eventually.

Even the big chain supermarkets now have whole aisles dedicated to non-GMO stuff.

I routinely discuss the issue with friends and family – and more of them are coming around all the time.

The last time I ate a store-bought (corn-fed beef) steak, I literally felt ill afterward. That never happens when I eat a steak that came from a grass-fed cow. I get the same ill feeling when I eat wheat.

My body is literally telling me in no uncertain terms that certain “foods” are bad news!

Me2, you’re right on there. It’s much worse than what most people think. The FDA is part and parcel(new head, old honcho from Monsanto)with big pharm, big ag, just one big collusion to dupe the public…..or those who might think they’re keeping up but don’t dig deep enough.

First, ask them what is in a McNugget. Then have them explain what each of the non-chicken ingredients is and it’s effect on humans. About here is where they usually excuse themselves as some not-to-be-missed-yet-repeated-14 times-a-day life changing bit of fluff is on the idiot box. That or get angry about ‘how dare I criticize their parenting!’. No rebuttal or investigation, just indignant self-pity.

Clearly mindless spoon-fed entertainment is of far more importance than the nutrition of their offspring.

TPTB will take your kids for homeschooling, not following the ‘food pyramid’, prepping, following alternate health regimes……..

But serving toxic low nutrition crap to toddlers…… hey, that’s fine.

We live in a world where shooting someone for not ‘buckling up for safety’ is accepted so I should not be surprised.

Garysco, FTFTFH’s(fuck ’em and feed ’em fish heads) I’ll take 3 fingers of 100 proof bourbon on the rocks with water or soda or neat, whatever’s fastest, and the biggest container you have with the blackest ale you have…..or just a big boilermaker and be done with it. I think I found my european counterpart(didn’t say it was pretty) here:

Garysco, you’d have to drive 200 miles to find a bar when I grew up. My dad didn’t really drink. I spect my mama wasn’t too happy to find I was just like her family. I don’t remember if I took my dad to a bar or he took me the first time but I was grown in any count. My dad was the office manager of an elec co op so every salesman who came by brought booze, just the way it was back then, and dad didn’t drink so it built up into a huge bar my inlaws gave hell. About 14 I figured it all out after being a bartender for the family for years. Seems like a lot of my good friends were bartenders so I got an inside look of what other people had to do that didn’t always apply to me. Of course as a stranger in a bar I learned like everybody else. I don’t know this is one of the things a guy necessarily gets taught, just learns, school of hard knocks.. My mama, I swear, keep a bottle of Scope in the pickup….so this is for all your girlfriends? Yep, it was, a Scope bottle full of vodka with food coloring and the girls did like it. Hey, after a hard day hauling hay, working cattle, feeding hogs, it was a good break so says my grand-daddy. Funny story, one grandpa sold home brew to the other who was the sheriff although it was before either was my grandpa.

@8 – Oh ya. Back in the 50’s, 60’s and some of the 70’s it was pretty simple. Booze, grass, heroin, a little LSD for the hard core hippies, stealing your parents “mothers little helpers” (Secobarbital) and chemically correct amphetamines (made without drano and other current DEA forced chemical substitutes to quick brain and body rot aka: meth).

I never particpated directly after watching my friends turn zombie on the stuff. I always went for the good scotch and high octane brandy (cognac).

My aunt & uncle owned a big country western bar in Anaheim near Disneyland. I Learned bar tending and had lots of fun until I realized the girls that went there came with pre-built attitudes, were tired of their husbands, or were totally screwed up regulars.

Sea salt does not have a significant amount of iodine, unfortunately. If you do not have access to plenty of ocean fish and seaweed, a supplement is vital. The very best I’ve found is here. http://www.wellnessresources.com/products/iosol_iodine.php Simple drops that can be taken easily in a small glass of water.

“The most basic of all facts about brainwashing: In the entire history of man, no one has ever been brainwashed and realized, or believed, that he had been brainwashed. Those who have been brainwashed will usually passionately defend their manipulators.”

“It would also appear possible to create high fidelity speech in the human body, raising the possibility of covert suggestion and psychological direction…Thus, it may be possible to ‘talk’ to selected adversaries in a fashion that would be most disturbing to them.”
Secretary of Defense William S. Cohen, Defense Viewpoint, December 1, 1998″

“The USDA’s plot to deceive consumers over “raw”
The mandatory almond fumigation requirement is seen by health-conscious consumers as not merely bizarre, but downright fraudulent. That’s because the USDA’s regulations allow fumigated and pasteurized almonds to be labeled “raw,” thereby intentionally deceiving the consuming public and instantly destroying consumer trust in the labeling of all almonds.” …

I can pretty much guarantee that unless you grow/raise the food yourself or from a very trusted source, it contains a lot of stuff that isn’t labeled. Or is labeled deceptively, like when you see “no preservatives” on the label but when you read the ingredients you see “spices” or “flavor additives”…

My personal “nail in the coffin” to food regulations is the fact that raw milk is outlawed, even when it is sold within a “members only” (private) business.

“They” don’t want us to know that if we just ate and drank naturally produced things, without unnecessary chemicals added to it, the epidemics of illnesses we now see (cancer, diabetes, mental illness, etc) would go away very quickly.

It’s the same reasoning behind keeping marijuana and other drugs illegal. “We” are forced to buy it from government licensed (taxed) manufacturers who either adulterate the product with chemicals, or charge ridiculous prices to cover the overhead that is required to meet the government’s regulations.

So why are the elites so keen to put anti-iodine halogens in our bodies?

Maybe I’m wearing a tinfoil hat, but I sometimes wonder why good old sodium chloride, an absolutely essential nutrient, has been demonized by the government. Until I discovered salt pills, I suffered terribly whenever I exerted myself in the heat. Along with physical symptoms, I was a mush mentally. After using salt pills, I worked outdoors in the summer heat of Los Angeles (admittedly not the worst the nation has to offer, but reasonably hot).

Apparently for whatever reason I have a particular need to consume fairly large quantities of salt compared to the average person, but nobody can survive without it, and recently even the CDC admitted there’s no benefit in reducing salt:

I’m not real sure the decades-long (and still continuing) push for reduced salt consumption has been done for nefarious reasons; occasionally even the government undertakes initiatives with good motives, but I can’t help but wonder…

Thanks for mentioning fluoride. I am very thankful for a good well and no ‘city’ water. How does chlorine fit into that halogen group. There’s a lot of that in ‘public water supplies’ as well.
BTW, well water is not a failsafe against fluoride. Maybe here, but I have nephew born in Morocco who has major fluorosis of his teeth due to naturally occurring fluoride in the water over there.

I use to respect cops. Now, having read stories about excessive corruption and abuse over the last 20+ years, I despise them and no longer feel any sympathy when any of them if they dies “in the line of duty.”

I know (and see) a lot of guys – not cops – who emulate the “high and tight” look. It’s very hip to Look Cop. Which is why I do all I can to look not-cop.

Funny thing, too, about the rest of it:

Some of them are strong – but few are fit. Most are just fat.

There are a few who work out at my gym. Two state cops in particular. They’re probably mid-late 20s, early 30s. They look/act like guys I knew in high school: Lots of macho posing, loud noise making. Funny thing is, they’re not very strong. I’m not a hulk, but I get a big kick out of deliberately working out right next to them – wearing my uniform of thrashed cammo pants (literally held together with duct tape in places) a paint/coffee/oil-stained old shirt, unshaved and my long hair all over the place… pushing more weight than they can deal with, without the grunting and posing.

The local PD would use our downtown range to “qualify.” I put qualify in scare quotes because if their shooting “qualified,” then it’s no wonder cops “spray and pray” when gunning down kids with BB guns.

Yep, it’s really a commonly recognized fact that many cops are shitty marksmen. There are exceptions, I know but most cops exhibit little talent for shooting and they’re total strangers to fire discipline.

When you hear of some poor guy being mowed down by 5 or six gunshot wounds, you can bet that several cops sprayed 100+ rounds all around him.

Amen. At the ranges where I go, you’ll see them out there once in a while. Even in street clothes it’s obvious who the cops are; they’re strutting around like their dicks are dragging on the floor.

They pose like idiots when they shoot. Totally unnatural stances; it’s like watching mime pantomiming what you’re supposed to look like When You’re At The Range. And the targets? Safest pieces of paper in the world. It’s really sad.

I’m working on my multiple-shot groupings. I do triple-taps–two in the chest, one in the head. Usually I can get ten rounds at ten yards in six seconds; feels like an eternity but I’m going for accuracy.

The cop in the next lane last time I was out was emptying his 9mm into the chest at seven yards. One or two in the 10-ring, and the classic recoil-anticipation pattern–every round after than low and left. An embarrassing showing.

The average engagement distance for cops is seven yards, and they miss 82% of the time. 82%! That’s about five out of six. No wonder they hit nine bystanders in that New York shootout a while back.

‘Course doesn’t matter for them; but god help you or me if you defend yourself and hit a bystander. YOU don’t have a gang behind you to extort settlements for the bystanders.

@meth – You don’t mean the NYPD gang that couldn’t shoot straight and shot a couple of bystanders do you? Or the most recent shooting of a tourist bystander is Times Square do you?

Sho’nuff, since the 80’s when they got the stacked magazine Glocks and (excuse me here) barely able females, accuracy, speed and target acquisition has gone out the window. No more bullseye, just hit the “bottle” at 7-25 yards.

Recently my hoodlum pals took me to a very nice big indoor range in Fresno. There were two off duty locals there on the line. One was what I would call a fair shooter, the other one scared the crap out of me. Couldn’t hit his target very often, but sent some rounds toward mine. He finally gave me the evil eye because I kept srtaring at him.

Ed, I have been stomped, cut, shot at, in a bad accident, stranded in really bad weather but at no time did I ever need a cop. I’ve been given a bad round of shit for being beat to shit. I never admitted anything, said I missed a step and fell down. They eventually got a good laugh of how I must have fallen. FTFTFH’s.

Don’t beat me up until you let me explain. I did 20 years in law enforcement and accrued hundreds of arrests for everything from violations to murder. I did my career NOT from a chair (desk jockey) but out in the field. Any job out there that hires huge amounts of people in a VERY delicate position such as law enforcement (think TSA) will have to lower its standards. I witnessed this same exact circumstance in the Marines and my current job. Most departments can EASILY survive and prosper utilizing a tiny fraction of the personnel they currently employ, but they do NOT. The preferred method is to reduce salaries/standards (think political correctness) and hire an army of personnel.

With that said comes the disaster…….

You tell unqualified inexperienced people (officers) that its their responsibility to control EVERY aspect of peoples lives. You tell the officers that if they make a mistake its their fault and their careers will suffer so its best to arrest everyone. You give the officers unjust “minimum productivity” goals and threaten them if they do not comply….or fire them. You create an absurd “war on whatever” drugs, prostitution, gambling etc…..and unleash the dogs to fill the quotas.

I’m a proud member of L.E.A.P for this very reason. Law Enforcement Against Prohibition.

I forgot to add the “war on terra” . Now anyone at a moments notice can be labeled a “terrist” (terrorist) and be invaded arrested and incarcerated without due process. All because someone/anyone does not like you. And remember boys and girls…..all because the supreme court says so.

It goes deeper even than that, Joe.Why do you think those conditions were created in the first place?
The War on (some) Drugs, aka The War on People and the 4th Amendment, was known to be a farce. The Rand Corp game-theoried it long before its roll-out; but they didn’t need to, any idiot with a modicum of economics understanding could see what would happen.

Drugs would increase in price; dealers would flock to the market for these outlandish profit margins; potency would increase; addiction would increase; rinse, repeat.

Darryl Gates instituted the first SWAT team in LA. Now, there are over 50,000 SWAT raids a year!

The continuing militarization serves two purposes:
1) pushing military tactics, training, and equipment onto the police along with federal authority to turn them into an effective occupying army
2) most importantly this militarization and occupation creates resentment and ultimately rebellion–and THAT will be the spark that starts the shooting war.

Boom. The Elites get what they want–cops getting shot, escalate cop intimidation, followed by more cops getting shot, followed by demonizing libertarians, patriots, constitutionalists, more cops getting shot, martial law.

You can see the scripting as clearly as the third installation of a Jack Reacher novel.

I wish it were that simple. I am young enough to think I can do “it” – and old enough to realize I don’t have the training or experience to do “it.” (Whatever “it” is – from paragliding to bungee jumping to storming the Bastille.)

Young enough to try, though, and not too worried about the consequences. At this point, I’ve been looking into the abyss… I live there, if you will…. 🙂

Hey, Joe.
I think I get where you’re coming from. Have you also joined CSPO? (Constitutional Sherriffs and Peace Officers). I did last week after I saw what they did in the florida case. The good guys are angry now, which means they are being goaded into action without thinking. But there will always be a place for men of respect as long as there is civilization.

There was a time when the American populace wouldn’t have tolerated so many atrocities, and it wasn’t all that long ago.

As the tyrant’s toadies love to chant…”9/11 Changed Everything.”

Yes it did.

Until you go back to that mega atrocity…until you recognize what really happened then….and who did it…..and how they capitalized upon it to destroy America….
YOU WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO UNRAVEL WHAT HAS HAPPENED SINCE.

Exactly right, Mike. It’s a litmus test for awakening.
My criminal-defense-lawyer friend, who is ABSOLUTELY one of us, and one of the brightest people I know…hell, he’s my kids’ godfather…still can’t accept 911.

We were talking on our way to the Appleseed shoot a few months ago and he asked “Why’s it so important to you?” I replied that it’s not important to ME, it’s important to HIM; because you have to fully embrace the monstrous nature of these people before you can properly frame your response to them.

If you understand it’s not just greed, it’s not just cui bono, it’s not just incompetence–it is focused, unrepentant EVIL that motivates these creatures, only then can you be fully motivated to defeat them.

My Mom’s finally coming around. It’s almost funny to watch; I had Ted Kaczynski-like thoughts until I came around to the same realizations as our revolutionary forefathers. Seeing my 71-year-old Mom railing against these psychopaths is quite amusing.

I had an acquaintance who’s son is a cop in a small city. She smugly assured me that all these “brutality” stories were mostly hype, gave me the “few bad apples” nonsense when I objected, and then the supposedly defining answer… “He just needs to know he’ll go home at the end of his shift.” I said most people have that goal and asked why it had to be mutually exclusive in relationship with cops. “Can’t we all go home safe?” She simply didn’t see the problem. And I’ve known lots of people (in California) who could watch these videos and STILL say those things.

I like to tell myself that my brother the cop wouldn’t do things like this; he’s a good guy, after all! But the truth is that I’m not so sure.

My brother the kid I grew up with knew better. But on the road from kid to cop, he became infested with power — the most damnable, destructive parasite there is. Long experience has shown that very few people indeed can resist it.

Your brother, like most cops, has friends and family who like him – regard him as a “good guy.” And in that context, he may well be. But what does his job – the work he does – consist of? Is it good? Can one be a “good guy” and do work that is oppressive, unfair – even arguably tyrannical and vicious?

It’s an odd thing.

Hannah Arendt coined the term, “banality of evil” to describe it. What she meant was that the average Nazi was not a foaming at the mouth maniac or a clinical sadist or rabid racist. He was rather a man with a wife and children whom he loved, friends who liked him… who also followed orders. If that meant (as an example) filling out the forms involved with regard to confiscation of people’s property, he filled out the forms. He may have sighed a little – but hey, what are you gonna do? He may also have stood guard at a camp during the day – and even felt sympathy for the prisoners. But he did his job. Orders are orders. The law’s the law.

The banality of evil was seen in the US during WW2. Japanese Americans were robbed of their property and imprisoned in “concentration camps” before the words were ever used by us to describe the horrors being done to Jews, Gypseys etc. in Europe. There were rubber-stamping statists who were more than happy to “follow orders”. Even going so far as having people literally kidnapped throughout Central and South America to be shipped to the states for internment! Yet more uncomfortable and inconvenient truths that Americans are all too ignorant of.

The fact that nearly eight times more innocent people die who come in contact with cops than cops dying on the job only goes to show that its far more dangerous being a mere mundane around these vermin than one of the badged bastards.

I have a glimmer of hope that those cops who are Christians and who actually take their faith seriously will eventually come to a point where they realize their job and their faith are incompatible. The example of the Nazis is actually a perfect illustration of that fact, to the extreme. I have no doubt that many cops are “good people” who wouldn’t deliberately abuse their power, but aggression rubber stamped by aggression is still aggression, and thus still immoral. I wish more people would wake up to that fact.

Any cop who helps enforce a random checkpoint, who threatens another citizen at gunpoint for not wearing a seatelt, who cages a person for “possessing” (or using or selling) arbitrarily illegal “drugs” – and so on – is by definition not “good people.”

Every single one of them faces a choice – a free choice – to not participate in such execrable, ethically unjustifiable actions. No one forces a cop to man a checkpoint or mulct others of their hard-earned dollars over “infractions” such as not wearing a got-damned seatbelt.

I refuse to believe in “good cops” for one simple reason…the GOOD cops aren’t arresting the BAD cops we see in the videos clearly performing illegal activities. So clearly even the GOOD cops believe there are 2 sets of laws…one for them and one for us, and this is the example that the clovers hold up for us to admire? HA!

I mean, go ahead…walk into a cop shop with a videotape of a guy breaking into a cop car and they’ll be all over that to make an arrest, but show 10 videos of cops breaking into a CIVILIAN’S car, and suddenly the crime isn’t important anymore. Same crime, same evidence, different responses…and that’s assuming you show it to a so-called GOOD cop!!!

So WHY again should we assume that good cops exist? They are just the asshole who won’t punch AND kick you when you’re down, and the lesser of 2 evils is still pretty evil.

How can one be “good” while doing bad things as a matter of course? And worse, by choice?

Remember: We are not talking about apprehending murderers, thieves and so on. Such comprises a small part of the typical traffic cop’s day. An incidental part.

Their day consists of harassing and collecting. Pulling people over at gunpoint for non-crimes and making them hand over money (theft at gunpoint). Or caging them for non-crimes such as possessing or using or selling various arbitrarily illegal substances. Or enforcing outrages such as eminent domain seizures of people’s land, confiscation of their rightful property without even the pretense of an “offense” having been committed (e.g., just taking cash from people because the amount they had in their possession was “large”).

No good man could look himself in the mirror and do these things on a daily/weekly basis – as the routine “work” of his profession.

That he is kind to his own kids and does not kick his dog in no way makes him a “good” man.

I’ve come to the logical conclusion that all cops are bad – by definition. Whether they are conscious of this is immaterial. No doubt, many believe in their hearts (and minds) that they are “good men” doing righteous work. It does not make it so. The average Nazi was not a frothing fanatic, either. He was a “good German” with a wife and kids who – in his own mind – believed he was doing the right thing.

Cops enforce laws. Just as the average Nazi enforcer did. Just like the East German Stasi did.

I’m just doing my job. The law is the law.

Most of the laws on the books (whether in Nazi Germany, post-war East Germany or the USA today) criminalize actions that involve no harm to other people or their property – and are therefore by definition not criminal. Yet cops threaten “offenders” at gunpoint regardless, forcing them to submit and obey, punishing them if they incline otherwise.

Now, the key point as regards cops in the USSA is they’ve opted to do this – to abuse their fellow human beings at the point of a gun.

They choose – freely – to do this. To get paid to do it.

That makes them very bad indeed.

Worse, in fact, than the average Nazi or Soviet or Stasi goon – since those guys literally faced the choice of doing as ordered or being thrown into a camp (or much worse).

Eric, I can’t really disagree with what you say from a logical perspective. I get frustrated all the time with people who simply are not willing to think logically.

But, is your average run of the mill cop who simply enforces the law really any worse than anyone else who supports those same laws? Why or why not?

Honestly, I have a hard time saying that a cop who is in oath keepers is morally inferior to your average person who doesn’t actually participate in, but completely favors, the war on drugs, war on terror, etc.

I’d be curious as to your thoughts along these lines. I know by a strict definition most people suck, but I think you have to make some distinction between the deliberately evil and the ignorant.

“But, is your average run of the mill cop who simply enforces the law really any worse than anyone else who supports those same laws? Why or why not?”

Yes, I think he is.

Because he took the conscious decision to enforce them himself. This makes him worse than the person who passively supports “the law.”

The cop actually threatens others – peaceful people – with violence. The “law supporter” can evade the violence that attends his support for “the law” because he’s not actually bullying people (or worse) himself. He can pretend that he is doing something good – like the liberal (or conservative) who touts “helping” people… with other people’s money.

In terms of legalism I get what you’re saying. let us imagine, for the sake of argument, that Ron Paul was elected President tomorrow, that he was a closet voluntarist this entire time, and that he could somehow magically disable the entire government immediately. Private courts were set up, who then began putting certain statists on nuremberg trial for their crimes that they committed despite having “legal” protection. Now, it probably wouldn’t be desirable to actually do this to every single person that enforced an unjust law at any point, but it would be justified. Let’s say it actually happened.

In that context, I would agree that a common citizen who voted for, or supported, a drug law (just an example, but it could be anything) is not guilty, and that a police officer who actually enforced such a law would be guilty. Because the former person simply spoke out in favor of drug prohibition, which wouldn’t be a crime in a libertarian society. Much like how the Westboro Baptist Church is rightfully not criminalized for advocating aggression against homosexuals, because they do not actually commit such aggression. But anyone who actually carried out what the WBC supports doing to homosexuals (Namely, executing them) would be guilty. I understand that. I agree with that.

I would make the same distinction, legally, in self-defense cases. If Person A shot a police officer in order to protect himself from being arrested for a drug crime, and Person B shot someone who said that he supports the cops who wage the war on drugs and that cops should arrest and lock up for life anyone who uses drugs, I would vote to acquit Person A for what he did, and I would vote not to acquit Person B for what he did. So, again, I agree with this distinction in a legalistic context.

In a moral context, I’m not sure I see it as much. I don’t really like the term “Good person” because I don’t really believe there’s such a thing, I don’t believe that there are any cops that are good people, or any non-cops that are good people. What I was referring to in regards to a “good cop”, which I put in quotations, was someone who tried to respect the rights of civilians, gave as much slack as he could get away with, and never went BEYOND what the law required him to do. What I mean by “good” in this context is really “less bad”, or, more accurate, “not knowingly doing evil.” So, why do they do it? Frankly, I think its exactly the same reason most people support them. Which isn’t OK, but again, I think the answer is really the same as it is for a civilian who supports those kinds of laws… education.

Now, eventually there may come a point where you have to defend yourself, regardless of the intentions of the person. If you have to, go ahead. Pragmatically it won’t end up well for you, but I don’t think its per say immoral (There’s a point beyond which I’d do this too, but I don’t yet know exactly what it is, and if I did know I probably wouldn’t post it online.) But I don’t think its fair to put ignorant cops in an “evil” category unless you put the ignorant people that support those actions in the same “evil” category. Maybe I only make that distinction because its easier for me, but I kind of feel like I need to. I know when I learned liberty for what it really was, I couldn’t go back. But then, I’ve always been a logical person. Even at 12 years old I knew the idea that giving up our freedoms because the terrorists attacked us “for our freedom” was absurd, and I appropriately opposed the Patriot Act. I was always skeptical of drug prohibition too, although it took me longer to gain true conviction in this regard. Foreign policy was the area I was a hypocrite in for the longest, and interestingly, its also the issue I feel most strongly about now. Frankly, and I’m sure you can sympathize with this, I just have a hard time with people who are unwilling to think rationally, which includes most supporters of the police, particularly the more unconditional supporters of the police.

Would you man a probable cause-free checkpoint? Threaten to cage someone for not wearing a seat belt? “Bust” some poor hurting-no-one-else victim who happened to be caught with arbitrarily illegal “drugs”? Provide muscle for eminent domain seizure of some old man’s home? Issue tickets that entail huge fines for “offenses” you know to be bullshit – because you yourself commit these same offenses (such as “speeding”) routinely?

Not me. I’d toss them the badge and tell them I signed up to keep the peace and go after criminals – people who’ve actually hurt someone else – and not this North Korean “law enforcement” stuff.

No, Eric, I wouldn’t do any of those things. But then, I don’t believe in those laws anyway. And not to get into this again, but I know where I’m going if I die, so I would willingly go to my death rather than do those immoral things.

Unfortunately, most people (cops or not) do not understand the issues the way you just (correctly) explained them.

maybe I’m just tired of getting called self-righteous. I get enough grief for my positions as is… lol…

That was kind of my point anyway. not all cops are the same. I wasn’t saying any of them were TRULY good. I mean, if there’s any cop somewhere who actually adheres to the NAP 100% of the time (I’ll even give allowances for any cases on which “orthodox” libertarians disagree with each other) I’d call him a truly good cop, but I don’t know if such a person actually exists.

I mostly agree with what you say here. My point about ignorance still stands, but I’m not sure how much that counts for. I think, if you say it counts for nothing, the logical conclusion would be that anyone who kills a current or former cop, for any reason whatsoever, is inherently justified. Would that be something you would hold to? Why or why not?

I think I asked you this before. I don’t think you answered (I’m not sure, I’ve stopped checking the email notifications box because it sends me an email any time ANY comment is made, not just one that is in reply to me, and I’ve gotten so many its overload… is there any way to get an email only when comments are made in response to you?) but… when exactly did you “wake up” to just how evil government is? Did you know any cops (personally) at that point? If so, how did your relationship with them change when you “woke up”? What about regular people who are not cops but who nonetheless completely support them?

At any rate, being confronted with the truth on anything is uncomfortable. Even for me I can only “advance” so much at one time. When you grow up with a conservative, relatively pro-police pro-military point of view… yeah you can imagine “waking up” was fairly difficult. Being a very logical person, it was easier for me than it is for most people. I can only imagine how the average person reacts to your statements about cops, if you ever make them to people who aren’t at least mostly awake. Have you lost any friends over this?

Oh, and don’t answer anything you don’t want to, I’m just curious how what you’ve dealt with corresponds with what I deal with.

Watching those two women violated was sickening to me. I could tell by her clear speech and proper use of English and manners that she was no more a criminal than you or me. The cops that searched them are no better than Gestapo when they feel it’s okay to violate their rights and subject them to extremely personal invasions. Notice the woman cop never changed gloves so she may have risked transferring STDs from one to another or even a simple bacterial infection. It was outrageous. Both cops and the department should be punished. This has gone way too far and yet I know some citizens will just see nothing wrong here.

eric, I should have sent in an article but here’s the synopsis. A few months back cops are called to a residence in Dallas where this guy who’s a few bricks shy of a load and has some physical problems too is outside unknown to his mom i think. He’s about 50 or so. He’s outside in the street spinning in a chair, just being a maroon. Cops get there and fairly quickly, one just blows him away his still in the chair with silly grin. Cops get back, make reports, man had weapon, lunged at cop, cop dispatches him. Problem was the video cam in the garage caught it all, easy to see guys never gets out of chair and no weapon. Now there’s charges pending on the cop. In response, last week the DIC(dick in charge)issues a statement to all cops involved in shootings Say nothing for 72 hrs so you and the rest can get your story(s) straight. DIC is completely unapologetic for this new policy and for the murderer cop. It must give residents of Dallas a warm and fuzzy feeling to see these badged murderers dry by.

And of course, if we ask, they’ll just give up their shiny toys, and go back to being helpful, right?
Because they’re comitted to equality and ensuring that we all get a fair shake and the benefit of the doubt. Right?

Whereas, if we make it obvious they may not come back from their shift… Or they may be CALLED TO THEIR HOME for a murder – They’ll not give up then, no – but we’ll all know what sort of animal they are, as they break down doors and kill innocent citizens, all in the name of “justice.”

Look, MY “plan” (More like a direction) is bad.
Yours is worse, as you want to use the “tools” of the system to repair the system – and it’s not broken! It’s working AS DESIGNED. The whole point is to subjugate you.

There is nothing wrong with your political system…
They control the horizontal…
They control the vertical…
Etc.

Cop abuse can happen anywhere, but I suspect it occurs much more frequently in big cities (where cops see the worst of people day in and day out) and remote areas (e.g., small towns where a few bullies become cops and grow power-mad). I’ve never seen or heard of anything like this in the many suburbs in which I’ve lived, and my interactions with police there have always been fairly cordial.

” I’ve never seen or heard of anything like this in the many suburbs in which I’ve lived,”

The biggest swath of suburbs around Richmond, Va are in Chesterfield county. The county is known locally as “Arresterfield county”. You may remember Brandon Raub, the combat vet who was arrested for his facebook posts and shuffled from mental facility to mental facility until his attorneys finally got him before a judge . That was done by Arresterfield county’s finest at the behest of the feds. It’s what they do best.

The cops there are vicious and greedy. Beatdowns are common. If you move into the Richmond suburbs, try for Henrico or Goochland counties.

Not necessarily…small town cops know everyone and know exactly what button’s to push, plus they’re the most bored and thus most likely to let their inner-prick out on people. On top of that they usually grew up together with the judges and the like so it’s all one big happy schoolyard clique mentality. Third problem is under funding and usually insecure because they’re under pressure to merge with bigger cop groups, so they have to try and prove that their existence is justified…even when it’s not.

Believe me, I’d rather deal with a city cop than a local cop anytime, and that’s having dealt with (and gotten reamed by) both.

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Eric started out writing about cars for mainstream media outlets such as The Washington Times, Detroit News and Free Press, Investors Business Daily, The American Spectator, National Review, The Chicago Tribune and Wall Street Journal.