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Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

The Ring

1. If neither Gandalf, Galadriel or Elrond had the power to destroy the Ring is it possible that Sauron through the knowledge of crafting learned certain secrets unknown even to the rest of Istari/elves and thus crafted a Ring with a potential of generating power that the average reader is underestimating?

I mean, since Sauron knew of the power of the Valar, he knew that if he did enough damage to middle earth they would sooner or later come and deal with him. He must have had that in plan since his entire existence is made of centuries of intelligent and cunning planning, is it possible that through the Ring he would in time grow ever more powerful, even powerful enough to stand some chance against them?

2. If the elves were already on the way to leave Middle Earth, why not take the Ring to the Undying lands and give it to the hands of those who probably had the power to destroy it instead of risking a "1% chance of success hobbit commando mission"?

Is this an indication that Sauron's sorcery, being of opposite nature than the rest of the immortals of his time, dabbled into things that the Valar did not had interest in or overlooked and thus learned knowledge that was unknown to none but him?

Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

Originally Posted by Marius Marich

2. If the elves were already on the way to leave Middle Earth, why not take the Ring to the Undying lands and give it to the hands of those who probably had the power to destroy it instead of risking a "1% chance of success hobbit commando mission"?

Is this an indication that Sauron's sorcery, being of opposite nature than the rest of the immortals of his time, dabbled into things that the Valar did not had interest in or overlooked and thus learned knowledge that was unknown to none but him?

IIRC was Gandalf himself who suggested not to send the Ring to Valinor during the Council; I can't remember the words exactly, but the general sense was "It belongs to ME and they will never accept it"

Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

Two quite connected questions.

The lore and craftmanship of the One was beyond what any other knew in ME, but crafting Great Rings could be done with right input (Tolkine states in LotR foreword that if someone claimed the One and crushed Sauron Saruman would found enough lore pieces to complete his own skill to make a Ring of his own to figh the new ruler of the One).
The Ring enabled Sauron greater control over the essences of Earth, thus made him stronger than he usually was (but not weaker than before without It - just weaker than when he has It).
But it was just a weak replication of what Morgoth already had done with the entire Earth, which is why it is refered to as Morgoth's Ring.
However the point for bot these fellows was to gain control, and that lust is evil - that others who presumably could do the same, like Aluë, did not is presumably a matter of intent, not knowledge or skill.
Could Saruman for example create a the One? Possibly, but it required a lot of essence to be put into the Ring and perhaps Saruman still had to little power to give? Unknown.

The Ring could not make him equal to the Valar, and if he tried they would kick him to pieces. Sauron was ell aware that he could not compete with them.T
hat's why he during the Second Age first started to rule when he belived Middle-earth was abandoned.

Seeing the desolation of the world, Sauron said in his heart that the Valar,
having overthrown Morgoth, had again forgotten Middle-earth; and his pride grew
apace.
- Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

He further knew he had to destroy the Númenóreans appeared bond to the Powers; and that Aman was removed from Earth after Númenor sank was to him the evidence he had won - he had separated Men from Eru and the Valar completly - thus all of Middle-earth was his for the taking and he had nothing to truely fear from the Valar any longer.
His actions and plans are thus not to be percived as any plan taking the Valar into considerations:

He probably deluded himself with the notion that the Valar (including Melkor) having failed, Eru had simply abandoned Eä, or at any rate Arda, and would not concern himself with it any more. It would appear that he interpreted the 'change of the world' at the downfall of Númenor, when Aman was removed from the physical world, in this sense: Valar (and Elves) were removed from effective control, and Men under God's curse and wrath. If he thought about the Istari, especially Saruman and Gandalf, he imagined them as emissaries from the Valar, seeking to establish their lost power again and 'colonize' Middle-earth, as a mere effort of defeated imperialists (without knowledge or sanction of Eru). His cynicism, which (sincerely) regarded the motives of Manwë as precisely the same as his own, seemed fully justified in Saruman. Gandalf he did not understand. But certainly he had already become evil, and therefore stupid, enough to imagine that his different behaviour was due simply to weaker intelligence and lack of firm masterful purpose.
- Myths Transformed; VII; i

Sauron was a matter for Men, and remaining ELves if the chose, to solve:

'Then if the Ring cannot be kept from him for ever by strength' said Glorfindel, 'two things only remain for us to attempt: to send it over the Sea, or to destroy it.'
'But Gandalf has revealed to us that we cannot destroy it by any craft that we here possess,' said Elrond. 'And they who dwell beyond the Sea would not receive it: for good or ill it belongs to Middle-earth; it is for us who still dwell here to deal with it.'
- Elrond, FotR; The Council of Elrond

Nonetheless the breaking of Thangorodrim and the extrusion of Melkor was the end of 'Morgoth' as such, and for that age (and many ages after). It was thus, also, in a sense the end of Manwë's prime function and task as Elder King, until the End.
He had been the Adversary of the Enemy
It is very reasonable to suppose that Manwë knew that before long (as he saw 'time') the Dominion of Men must begin, and the making of history would then be committed to them: for their struggle with Evil special arrangements had been made! Manwë knew of Sauron, of course. He had commanded Sauron to come before him for judgement, but had left room for repentance and ultimate rehabilitation. Sauron had refused and had fled into hiding. Sauron, however, was a problem that Men had to deal with finally: the first of the many concentrations of Evil into definite power-points that they would have to combat, as it was also the last of those in 'mythological' personalized (but non-human) form.
- HoME 10; Myths Transformed VII; iii

Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

I see,

Considering that with Numenor falling into pride and sin by Sauron's instructions Men were separated from the Valar, I understand their lack of interest in their suffering. But what of the elves still living in Middle Earth, or more importantly the Avari who show no indication or wish to sail West...ever?
I am simply boggled that such a force of good would just stand by looking as their child landmass burned.

That is why I show interest in this particular question, I presume Sauron as extremely intelligent because of his lust for controlled organization and patience(which I see as a main sign of wisdom in real life also), and knowing he witnessed how miniscule his power and essence is in comparison to the beings that destroyed his even more powerful master, I can't stop but wonder and conclude that he had an ace up his sleeve that noone knew about but he had no chance of using for he was destroyed before he had the opportunity to face the supreme immortals of the West.

Personally, I like to think it is the Ring, that there is something else within it apart from his creation. I simply can not see Sauron as some suicidal maniac that plans to burn Middle Earth to the ground and then laugh as the Valar sink and then raise from the sea the entire Arda and start again.

I'm really rusty on the lore because it has been some years since I read Tolkien's, and I was a kid back then. I have a shipment of every single page ever published by the man and his son arriving next week so I started "interesting" myself in this "stuff" again

Colfax WA, neat I have a barn and 49 acres - I have 2 horses, 15 chickens - but no more pigs

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Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

The Ring enabled Sauron greater control over the essences of Earth, thus made him stronger than he usually was (but not weaker than before without It - just weaker than when he has It).

I think the evidence such as it says JRRT felt S was lessened w/o the ring - below his original pre-ring status.

As my favorite unreliable witness says...

"This is the One Ring that he lost many ages ago, to the great weakening of his power. He
greatly desires it – but he must _not_ get it.'" (LOTR Shadow of the Past)

Now obviously this can capture two different ideals either he was S+R and is now just S, but I think in fact w/o the Ring he is S-(some unknown).

Consider Sauron cannot find the Ring, he at first does not even know it exists [Which I think implies that in fact neither Sauron nor Celibrimbor really have/had a complete grasp of what they made]. Since Sauron cannot feel the Ring all the time I would argue that is strong evidence that the power he put into is in fact largely severed from him in a real way if he does not have it.

Also it is interesting that unlike her brother Galadriel wins directly or indirectly her magical conflicts with S-R, but of course you argue it is G+R(3) that wins. However Sauron w/o the ring is very passive and does miss things. He fails to notice Gandalf's spy mission and unlike the the First Age (one time) , the Second (at least three times) he never dares a stand up fight in the Third Age. I find that important, especially when the opposing field was far more limited by the time of the War of the Ring.

This logic is also supported by The Return of the Shadow

"- but without the Ring he is still shorn of much power, He put into the Ring much of his own power and without it is weaker than of old [and obligated to lean more on servants]. Of old He could guess or half see what were the hidden purposes of the Elflords, but now he is blind..." (HoME)

Again I know I rag on G, but the White Lady says the same in the LOTR.

edit:

I also think the loss of the ability to take a fair form after the fall of Numenor is an indication that Sauron of the Third Age is less than he was - he was going the Morgoth route to some extent.

Last edited by conon394; February 26, 2013 at 09:01 AM.

IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

@ Marius

The Valar had restricted mandate to act, and as in quote in last post after Morogth was defeated it really was not their job any more; Sauron was not Morgoth. The Children could not defeat Morgoth, but they could defeat Sauron, and they did so 4-5 times (depending on how to count), and on at least 2 occasions they could have had him killed but screwed it up.
Men and Elves should not needed the Valar's help, and in the cases Valar in history acted was when Morgoth had taken the control of the world first two times and utterly defeated good Elvish and Man resistance the third and last. So bitter was the situation never against Sauron.
Men had to face Sauron, it was their test (my underlining);

He [Manwë] must have grasped with great clarity what even we may perceive dimly: that it was the essential mode of the process of 'history' in Arda that evil should constantly arise, and that out of it new good should constantly come. One especial aspect of this is the strange way in which the evils of the Marrer, or his inheritors, are turned into weapons against evil. If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reestablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth, without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction. And in the meanwhile, Men, or the best elements in Mankind, shaking off his shadow, came into contact with a people who had actually seen and experienced the Blessed Realm.
In their association with the warring Eldar Men were raised to their fullest achievable stature, and by the two marriages the transference to them, or infusion into Mankind, of the noblest Elf-strain was accomplished, in readiness for the still distant, but inevitably approaching, days when the Elves would 'fade'. - Myths Transformed VII; iii

The logic is reasonable, but it is a reversed logic to that, that is the case presented to us;
Sauron did not dared to try to take over Middle-earth because he had a chance [by cunning or device] to counter the Valar - he dared to try to take over Middle-earth because he belived he never would have to counter the Valar.
What did he belive about the End of times then? DId he not belive Eru and teh Valar would at last come and purge Arda Marred? No, he actually did not, because if Eru changed his mind the Music would not apply:

He [Sauron] probably deluded himself with the notion that the Valar (including Melkor) having failed, Eru had simply abandoned Eä, or at any rate Arda, and would not concern himself with it any more.

EDIT:

Only Eru may or can alter the 'Music'.
- Myths Transformed VII; iii

The idea of Sauron as a maniac destroying Middle-earth has no ground, where do that come into the picture?
That was Melkor's intention in the beginning however (but that changed, as I seems to have had made my mission to point out hehe, since Melkor came to like being a tyrant king over subjects)

I recomend you lay your hands on HoME 10 and in it read Myths Transformed, that will grant you the best info on the matters

@ conon'
I see your point but I will maintain my stance, and that because I do not percive there's a contradiction here.
Sauron is less powerful than when he had the Ring, because the Ring enhanced his powers, but that do not mean without the Ring he is less powerful than before he had the Ring.
It is a device, a 'machine'. To put it blunt: an man can walk but not fly. Entering an airplane the man can fly, being able to travel a greater distance than when he had not the airplane. If he leave the airplane he can no longer fly and cross that distance, but it do not mean he can not walk still.
With the difference that Sauron's airplane if crashed would make him die due to essence put into it haha
EDIT: By which I do not try to claim you have to be wrong, simply that I do not belive you are right, which are different things ^^

I do not deem the fact that Sauron could not percive the Ring as a factor weither one embrace either perception

Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

Then I suggest you begin with Silmarillion, to get a complete coherent story from the creation until the LotR - the books that make up History of Middle-Earth will present you texts generally faaaaaar from that haha

Then check Unfinished Tales, which will prepeare you for the HoME series, in which I recomend you jump between books depending on current topic of interest, as few manage to go form page to page trough 12 volumes of very diverse and sometimes obsolete content

Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

Hi all had a question for anyone.

I play lord of the rings online and I am looking to rename my elf, I wanted to do a proper lotr name for him. He is from lothlorien and I was hoping for a reference or something to possible names posiblities [cant be major characters from books] for a elf from lothlorien. Also if possible the meaning of names/words for elves as well ty.

Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

Originally Posted by Cyclops

As a matter of fact, Tolkien invented some languages, and the rest is a back story to that.

I think that is a truth with modification. No doubt at all the world would never been developed, or at least not developed alike what we got if it was not for the lingustic matters (I have no real interest in languages but due to his entusuastic lingustic history those chapters and notes are a joy to read; consider HoME now), so I'd say it is reasonable to sum it up so, but his first creation in the mythos is the Fall of Gondolin - and here my memory turn blanc; had he started to create any Elven languages then? Did he not start on such first after?
(by which I mean the Elvish ones, not language in general)

Originally Posted by total relism

Hi all had a question for anyone.

I play lord of the rings online and I am looking to rename my elf, I wanted to do a proper lotr name for him. He is from lothlorien and I was hoping for a reference or something to possible names posiblities [cant be major characters from books] for a elf from lothlorien. Also if possible the meaning of names/words for elves as well ty.

There exist fairly few known names from Lórien, of which some are used elsewhere as well, as they were much influenced by their western Sindar kin, and Noldor who spoke Sindarin.
Known ones are:

Amdir (king; died during Last Alliance)Amroth (king after Amdir; drowned)Celebrían (female name, Galadriel's daughter and Elrond's wife)HaldirMalgalad (presumably another name for Amdir, that was abandoned)Mithrellas (female name, one of Nimrodel's maidens; "foremother" to prince Imrahil of Dol Amroth)Nimrodel (female name, beloved by Amroth)Orophin (Haldir's borther, also boarder guard)Rúmil (Haldir's borther, also boarder guard)

Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

Smeagol was calling Deagol his love. Is that some old timey thing, or um......you know.

Also, was the ring so powerful as to make Seamgol become homicidal, or was he just an ass to begin with?

Sméagol killed Deagol (his cousin) out of greed for the Ring. there's no real history about Gollum before he obtained the ring that im aware of, but im certain we can assume that the Ring was calling out to Gollum and drove him mad with rage when Deagol tried to claim it for his own. So, yes, the Ring is powerful enough to cause people to turn on eachother and even attempt murder (Boromir might've very well tried to kill Frodo for the ring as well, had he gotten the chance at Amon Hen.)

Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

Smeagol's craziness is a mix of factors. His murder, his greed, the Ring's own corruption, and sheer isolation that he lived. Even without the Ring, if he had murdered someone for, say, normal gold, and done all he did, like living on his own, distrusting everyone, he wouldn't have lived as long, but he'd still be fairly insane even so.

Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

See Letter 210 from June 1958 where Tolkien's comments on the film 'treatment' of The Lord of the Rings, a.k.a a film script made by a guy named Zimmerman.

(...)
4. Here we meet the first intrusion of the Eagles. I think they are a major mistake of Z, and without warrant.
The Eagles are a dangerous 'machine'. I have used them sparingly, and that is the absolute limit of their credibility or usefulness. The alighting of a Great Eagle of the Misty Mountains in the Shire is absurd; it also makes the later capture of G. by Saruman incredible, and spoils the account of his escape. (...)

15. Time is again contracted and hurried, with the effect of reducing the importance of the Quest. Gandalf does not say they will leave [Rivendell - Ngugi] as soon as they can pack! Two months elapse. There is no need to say anything with a time-purport. The lapse of time should be indicated, if by no more than the change to winter in the scenery and trees.
At the bottom of the page, the Eagles are again introduced. I feel this to be a wholly unacceptable tampering with the tale. 'Nine Walkers' and they immediately go up in the air! The intrusion achieves nothing but incredibility, and the staling of the device of the Eagles when at last they are really needed. It is well within the powers of pictures to suggest, relatively briefly, a long and arduous journey, in secrecy, on foot, with the three ominous mountains getting nearer.
(...)

Beside such story telling aspects, as well as credibility matters (which I deem as mainly a point that Eagles are not taxis), the most credible in-world reason would be, not described, that they as servants of Manwë were not allowed to interfere as creating a solution for the Children.
There's this again (my underlining):

He [Manwë -Ngugi] must have grasped with great clarity what even we may perceive dimly: that it was the essential mode of the process of 'history' in Arda that evil should constantly arise, and that out of it new good should constantly come. One especial aspect of this is the strange way in which the evils of the Marrer, or his inheritors, are turned into weapons against evil. If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reestablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth, without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction. And in the meanwhile, Men, or the best elements in Mankind, shaking off his shadow, came into contact with a people who had actually seen and experienced the Blessed Realm.
In their association with the warring Eldar Men were raised to their fullest achievable stature, and by the two marriages the transference to them, or infusion into Mankind, of the noblest Elf-strain was accomplished, in readiness for the still distant, but inevitably approaching, days when the Elves would 'fade'.
- Myths Transformed VII; iii

If it was not for the long travel much good would not come to pass. Théoden would not been liberated nor Ents roused, meaing Saruman would broken Rohan, Aragorn would not been king of Gondor, the Corsairs would remained etc. From the evil good came as well, at a price but yet well bought; a fate which the Eagles are not allowed to try to short cut around

Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

Originally Posted by Ngugi

I think that is a truth with modification. No doubt at all the world would never been developed, or at least not developed alike what we got if it was not for the lingustic matters (I have no real interest in languages but due to his entusuastic lingustic history those chapters and notes are a joy to read; consider HoME now), so I'd say it is reasonable to sum it up so, but his first creation in the mythos is the Fall of Gondolin - and here my memory turn blanc; had he started to create any Elven languages then? Did he not start on such first after?
(by which I mean the Elvish ones, not language in general)

There exist fairly few known names from Lórien, of which some are used elsewhere as well, as they were much influenced by their western Sindar kin, and Noldor who spoke Sindarin.
Known ones are:

Amdir (king; died during Last Alliance)Amroth (king after Amdir; drowned)Celebrían (female name, Galadriel's daughter and Elrond's wife)HaldirMalgalad (presumably another name for Amdir, that was abandoned)Mithrellas (female name, one of Nimrodel's maidens; "foremother" to prince Imrahil of Dol Amroth)Nimrodel (female name, beloved by Amroth)Orophin (Haldir's borther, also boarder guard)Rúmil (Haldir's borther, also boarder guard)