1) I think there's a difference between "Witch trials are the perfect setting for a LaytonxAA crossover" and "Witches and real magic totally work in Layton/AA." While AA has spirit channeling and Layton has Luke talking to animals, neither has magic to the extent of Labyrinthia.

While Fey magic is a big part of AA (or the original trilogy, at least), it's nothing more than a plot device--there's only a single case in the entire franchise that relies on it (and before you say "what about 2-2," that only relied on the idea/belief of spirit channeling)--so I think there'd definitely be a difference between having magic in the sense of spirit channeling in AA, and then real magic to the extent it's present in PLvAA.

I also think there's a fine line between being "a little less serious" and "HEY LET'S ADD REAL MAGIC TO TWO COMPLETELY SEPARATE FRANCHISES OUT OF NOWHERE" xD

2) If you look at each individual case, they're very AA-ish, but the overarching story as a whole is very Layton-ish, I think, and I also understand not giving the entire story to AA.

also c'mon, it's not like either franchise is known for having subtle villains

You're right, the game didn't have to half a mediocre cast just because it was half-Layton, and it would've been great if it only took the best of each franchise, but like I said before I think it's a bit unfair to criticize it basing it on the full AA standard when it's half Layton.

(Actually I thought Espella and Storyteller were fine. Espella wasn't character of the year or anything, but I thought her self-loathing, persecution, and sacrifice was enough. Darklaw and Barnham were definitely subpar, and it's unfortunate because to fix them all they really needed was something for Darklaw to do in case 2 or 3 and something for Barham to do in case 4.)

Spoiler:

1). Well, if we use the famous BP method of dividing AA cases by "mystery" and "story", then there's only one AA case in which spirit channeling is involved in the mystery. It's pretty essential in 1-4, 2-2, 3-5, and arguably 1-2. My point is, though, I would've had an easier time believing in magic then the ending we ended up getting. I can't guarantee that the ending would be better (the world will never know) but I think it's safe to say the ending would have less plot holes

And judging from the beginning, magic was definitely going to be real during the making of this game, meaning that Takumi and Level-5 were totally ok with magic existing in both universes

2). A big part of the cast being mediocre can come from mob examinations, I think. When focusing on one witness at a time, you can characterize that witness more. It was more played for laughs in this game (I also want to bring up that Level-5 didn't do a great job localizing the names. The puns have absolutely no subtlety. Lettie Mailer? C'mon now...)

Espella was just boring. I didn't hate her. i didn't love her either. I didn't really have a problem with the quadrio wanting to protect her because they're all pretty good natured. I hated The Storyteller. I can sympathize with his plight of just wanting to have his daughter speak to him again, but he ruined so many lives at that cost. Plot holes aside, the ending is also a mess in other regards. Barnham and the Judge sent so many innocent lives to fiery deaths. The witches didn't actually die, but shouldn't it bother them that they were ok with it when they thought it was real?

I actually want to bring something about Darklaw. When the time came to ask who rang the bell, I chose Eve (erm...the cat). There are a lot of times in the series where it seems like a little kid actually did kill someone as a result of an accident and they turn out to be innocent (so no surprise that Espella was innocent). There are also a lot of fans who say that they want the series to take a risk and have the kid be guilty (Ema being a notable one, as some people think the case would be better if she was the one who killed Neil as it would add moral ambiguity). I don't have a problem with Darklaw being the killer, but I don't really like the execution of it. The goal of the trial was to alleviate the trauma from Espella and we ended up doing that (or not. She tried to kill herself) but we just took it from her and put the burden on Darklaw

It's a bold move by the game for sure, but Darklaw just ends up shocked and sad....and then we leave. We just pack our bags and have Darklaw deal with the trauma of over a hundred people (including her mother) dying a horrible death at her hands. If Ema was guilty of SL-9 in 1-5 (but Gant was guilty of murdering Goodman), the ending would still have a lot of heart to it and leave the player with a feeling of hope. The ending of PLvAA just kind of made me feel shitty on the inside. Not just for Darklaw, but for the townspeople as well. T&T had a sad ending, too, but the ending felt more bittersweet (plus, the end credits song accompanying those feelings ). The ending to PLvAA felt a little underdeveloped. Everyone basically said, "Good luck with those traumas, Darklaw!" and that was that. No doubt Espella is also going to feel terrible for convincing Darklaw to go up to the tower in the first place

Nurio wrote:

A bit late to the party, but...

Spoiler:

Did you know your eyes have a permanent blind spot each? Yet we never notice it because our brains automatically fill in that missing information the eyes don't see. I assume it's the same with the invisible machines. They don't see anything where the machines are, so their brains automatically fill in the 'shadows' by extending the background behind it.

Spoiler:

I actually did learn that from vsauce. What you're talking about isn't the same thing. Hypnosis is different from extending the saccade (that's impossible). And even if you are right, they should still see the shadows or bump into the machines

My point is, though, I would've had an easier time believing in magic then the ending we ended up getting. I can't guarantee that the ending would be better (the world will never know) but I think it's safe to say the ending would have less plot holes

Spoiler: Well, allow me to give my two cents.

I don't think the game would avoid plot holes with magic any more than without. Yes, the explanation given is as stupid as it is unfitting, but you've suggested yourself that hypnotism could have been a viable option instead. That is, though the citizens were 'hypnotized' into their fake lives, it wasn't the main reason they succumbed to the illusion.

But, just consider if there had been real magic. Where would it have come from? Why would it be limited to females? And most importantly, why would it be focused upon the residents of a single city? Now, I know Godzilla attacks on Japan (mostly Tokyo) seem to be a favorite for the creature, but if the witches were real, Takumi could have expanded on this premise a lot further than he did. Instead of Layton only fighting with robot knights, we could have had him battle live dragons! And witches. All with his fencing techniques. And Nick can object with giant blue fingers or something.

I think the dev team were serious about making this crossover, not as a parody, but simply a tribute. They wouldn't want to push that boundary.

Quote:

Spoiler:

2). A big part of the cast being mediocre can come from mob examinations, I think. When focusing on one witness at a time, you can characterize that witness more. It was more played for laughs in this game (I also want to bring up that Level-5 didn't do a great job localizing the names. The puns have absolutely no subtlety. Lettie Mailer? C'mon now...)

But it's Layton! They're always blatant with the puns! D:

Quote:

Spoiler:

Plot holes aside, the ending is also a mess in other regards. Barnham and the Judge sent so many innocent lives to fiery deaths. The witches didn't actually die, but shouldn't it bother them that they were ok with it when they thought it was real?

Spoiler:

They didn't think about it very much. In fact, I'd think they were pretty relieved that their jobs were a bunch of hooey.

That said, I don't really care for Barnham because he's portrayed as the cool, sneaky guy with a plan, but in the end, he didn't really accomplish anything. All for the sake of making Layton look even cooler and sneakier with a working plan.

Quote:

Spoiler:

The ending to PLvAA felt a little underdeveloped. Everyone basically said, "Good luck with those traumas, Darklaw!" and that was that. No doubt Espella is also going to feel terrible for convincing Darklaw to go up to the tower in the first place

Spoiler:

I'll concede here. They don't seem to take the whole responsibility thing very seriously, and even her dying dad ends up with a cure, so everything's alright.

Even as a Layton game, the ends were all tied up a little too easily. At least 5-5 had blatant GS6 promotion. This game isn't suited to have a sequel.

Quote:

Nurio wrote:

A bit late to the party, but...

Spoiler:

Did you know your eyes have a permanent blind spot each? Yet we never notice it because our brains automatically fill in that missing information the eyes don't see. I assume it's the same with the invisible machines. They don't see anything where the machines are, so their brains automatically fill in the 'shadows' by extending the background behind it.

Spoiler:

I actually did learn that from vsauce. What you're talking about isn't the same thing. Hypnosis is different from extending the saccade (that's impossible). And even if you are right, they should still see the shadows or bump into the machines

Spoiler: Ooh, you wanna hear my theory?

I actually believe that there have been cases of people running into these machines. However, as part of the government cover-up, all witnesses of such incidents were removed, and their memories erased with a single ringing bell. And hallucinogens. Followed by smelling salts. Thus, no one who had a suspicion would have kept it with them.

Except for Barnham, but he's a special exception.

The home of the Gyakuten Saiban vs Ace Attorney blog: http://gyakutengagotoku.tumblr.comVarious official AA stuff translations currently in the works.Updated to include tributes and more to the Yakuza game series. I'm forever trapped in karaoke hell.

I actually did learn that from vsauce. What you're talking about isn't the same thing. Hypnosis is different from extending the saccade (that's impossible). And even if you are right, they should still see the shadows or bump into the machines

Spoiler:

Oooh! You mean the actual shadow that the machine would cast on the ground! I thought you meant shadow, as in what a Labyrinthian would 'see' in place of pure black. Yeah, I have no rebuttal to that.

I don't have a problem with Darklaw being the killer, but I don't really like the execution of it. The goal of the trial was to alleviate the trauma from Espella and we ended up doing that (or not. She tried to kill herself) but we just took it from her and put the burden on Darklaw

I don't think the game would avoid plot holes with magic any more than without. Yes, the explanation given is as stupid as it is unfitting, but you've suggested yourself that hypnotism could have been a viable option instead. That is, though the citizens were 'hypnotized' into their fake lives, it wasn't the main reason they succumbed to the illusion.

But, just consider if there had been real magic. Where would it have come from? Why would it be limited to females? And most importantly, why would it be focused upon the residents of a single city? Now, I know Godzilla attacks on Japan (mostly Tokyo) seem to be a favorite for the creature, but if the witches were real, Takumi could have expanded on this premise a lot further than he did. Instead of Layton only fighting with robot knights, we could have had him battle live dragons! And witches. All with his fencing techniques. And Nick can object with giant blue fingers or something.

I think the dev team were serious about making this crossover, not as a parody, but simply a tribute. They wouldn't want to push that boundary.

Spoiler:

Well, "magic is real" isn't really a plot hole. As long as you can follow rules established in the universe of a story, then everything is ok. Since Layton and Nick travelled to a different universe, a new set of "rules" could be written. However, since the end of the story reveals that they never travelled to a different universe in the first place, the explanation we got from the magic did end up breaking some rules of the PL and AA universes, in my eyes at least

The questions you bring about real magic are ones I was pondering throughout the game and thought would be revealed in the final trial (besides it being limited to a single city. I just figured the single city was the only world that existed in the book that Layton and co. entered). I'm sure these are questions that could've been pursued had that been the route Takumi took, as he did spend a good deal of time with the history of the Fey clan

I think it does say a lot that Takumi felt magic being real was ok (and not pushing a huge boundary) for quite a long time (long enough for the opening cutscenes to be animated). Whether it was changed because he backed down, Level-5 decided against it, or other reasons, I think it says more that Takumi has a better grasp on what would be ok in the AA universe than the fans

Quote:

Spoiler:

They didn't think about it very much. In fact, I'd think they were pretty relieved that their jobs were a bunch of hooey.

That said, I don't really care for Barnham because he's portrayed as the cool, sneaky guy with a plan, but in the end, he didn't really accomplish anything. All for the sake of making Layton look even cooler and sneakier with a working plan.

Spoiler:

Well, they'll have plenty of time to think about it now. Barnham has a long boat ride home by himself with only his thoughts. I'm sure the thought will pop in his head and say, "Oh, God...what have I done?"

And Barnham accomplished tons! He snuck into a room and then was revealed to be the culprit through a simple puzzle!

Quote:

Spoiler:

Even as a Layton game, the ends were all tied up a little too easily. At least 5-5 had blatant GS6 promotion. This game isn't suited to have a sequel.

Eh. Lots of games/movies that I thought didn't need sequels have surprised me (999, BTTF2, Terminator 2). I wouldn't be surprised to find out if people were opposing GS2 saying that the first game was better as a standalone (though, I didn't care because I just wanted more mysteries).

There are worst games to choose for a sequel and I won't mind having another adventure with this crew. Though, I'd prefer Ace Attorney vs. Ghost Trick

Well, "magic is real" isn't really a plot hole. As long as you can follow rules established in the universe of a story, then everything is ok. Since Layton and Nick travelled to a different universe, a new set of "rules" could be written. However, since the end of the story reveals that they never travelled to a different universe in the first place, the explanation we got from the magic did end up breaking some rules of the PL and AA universes, in my eyes at least

The questions you bring about real magic are ones I was pondering throughout the game and thought would be revealed in the final trial (besides it being limited to a single city. I just figured the single city was the only world that existed in the book that Layton and co. entered). I'm sure these are questions that could've been pursued had that been the route Takumi took, as he did spend a good deal of time with the history of the Fey clan

I think it does say a lot that Takumi felt magic being real was ok (and not pushing a huge boundary) for quite a long time (long enough for the opening cutscenes to be animated). Whether it was changed because he backed down, Level-5 decided against it, or other reasons, I think it says more that Takumi has a better grasp on what would be ok in the AA universe than the fans

Spoiler:

It's not a plot hole by itself, but given that the Layton games have always been about revealing "magic" or "time travel" to be hoaxes, it might not sit right with some people to include something that wasn't revealed to be disguised parlor tricks or mirages or advanced ancient alien technology. It's also why in the original release, there is absolutely no mention of Maya's spiritual powers, in-game or in DLC. Obviously, being a spirit medium could cause some confusion between her and the witches, but I don't think that was the only reason.

And just so you know, spirit channeling and "magic" are two completely different matters. They only share the category of "non-science". :3

Quote:

Spoiler:

Well, they'll have plenty of time to think about it now. Barnham has a long boat ride home by himself with only his thoughts. I'm sure the thought will pop in his head and say, "Oh, God...what have I done?"

And Barnham accomplished tons! He snuck into a room and then was revealed to be the culprit through a simple puzzle!

When the DLC episodes come out, you'll see how much has changed within a year in that city.

Spoiler: DLC

Not much at all. But at least Barnham gets to work as a baker's apprentice without pay. What goes around comes around, indeed.

Quote:

There are worst games to choose for a sequel and I won't mind having another adventure with this crew. Though, I'd prefer Ace Attorney vs. Ghost Trick

I don't think it'd be a vs title. Takumi wouldn't want his two different games to be at odds with one another. He loves them as one big family. even though it was his idea to kill off Nick and have Sissel become prosecutor

The home of the Gyakuten Saiban vs Ace Attorney blog: http://gyakutengagotoku.tumblr.comVarious official AA stuff translations currently in the works.Updated to include tributes and more to the Yakuza game series. I'm forever trapped in karaoke hell.

The 3rd case was my favorite because A It had a witness who actually helped instead of lying, B the fact that it was a suicide was a nice touch. C Maya's "death" created sooooooooo many feels TTwTT and finally THIS MOMENT.I mean good god LOOK AT LUKE'S FACE!!! That's trauma inducing shit right there!

"Follow Your heart out of the darkness! Stand up and rise from the ashes! Back to the start, far from the madness. Come alive again! Break off the chains of hesitation! Your voice will be your salvation! Look to the light of liberation waiting at the end!"

The 3rd case was my favorite because A It had a witness who actually helped instead of lying, B the fact that it was a suicide was a nice touch. C Maya's "death" created sooooooooo many feels TTwTT and finally THIS MOMENT.I mean good god LOOK AT LUKE'S FACE!!! That's trauma inducing shit right there!

Spoiler:

In the game, it was amazing drama.

But to be honest, out of context, that screenshot makes me LOL. It looks like an old campfire tale gone wrong.

The 3rd case was my favorite because A It had a witness who actually helped instead of lying, B the fact that it was a suicide was a nice touch. C Maya's "death" created sooooooooo many feels TTwTT and finally THIS MOMENT.I mean good god LOOK AT LUKE'S FACE!!! That's trauma inducing shit right there!

Spoiler:

In the game, it was amazing drama.

But to be honest, out of context, that screenshot makes me LOL. It looks like an old campfire tale gone wrong.

Spoiler:

IKR? Call me sick or wrong all you want that was fucking hilarious!

"Follow Your heart out of the darkness! Stand up and rise from the ashes! Back to the start, far from the madness. Come alive again! Break off the chains of hesitation! Your voice will be your salvation! Look to the light of liberation waiting at the end!"

It takes three hours and thirty-seven minutes for Professor Layton to meet Phoenix Wright in a game titled Professor Layton vs Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney. +1 sin.Nah, I'm not CinemaSins.

So, for the most part, I did enjoy playing through this game. While some parts felt a bit easy, the difficulty did feel more natural than Dual Destinies. I also liked that Phoenix felt a bit more competent throughout the trials, but Maya wasn't really helping until the final trial.

Of course, there are things that were just groan-worthy. The apparent deaths of Layton and Maya weren't really fooling me, because you'd have to be a fool to kill off a main character in a crossover.

To be honest, most of the characters weren't really that memorable. Espella didn't have much fleshing out, while Barnham probably could have been replaced with Eve without much major difference. Yeah, some of them have their funny moments, but that's all. Not much character in them. And of course, the punny names. *sigh* Carmine Accidenti? Really, game? How are we supposed to take that with any sense of seriousness at all? It makes me wonder if he purposely changed his name just so he could be in a car accident.

But that ending, though. Layton games always had ridiculously unsatisfying explanations for endings, but at least they didn't last for two hours Seriously, the last two hours were just a dump of explanations.

Despite this, I still found this game to be an enjoyable experience. I look forward to starting the special episodes.

EDIT:

JesusMonroe wrote:

Spoiler:

I actually want to bring something about Darklaw. When the time came to ask who rang the bell, I chose Eve (erm...the cat). There are a lot of times in the series where it seems like a little kid actually did kill someone as a result of an accident and they turn out to be innocent (so no surprise that Espella was innocent). There are also a lot of fans who say that they want the series to take a risk and have the kid be guilty (Ema being a notable one, as some people think the case would be better if she was the one who killed Neil as it would add moral ambiguity). I don't have a problem with Darklaw being the killer, but I don't really like the execution of it. The goal of the trial was to alleviate the trauma from Espella and we ended up doing that (or not. She tried to kill herself) but we just took it from her and put the burden on Darklaw

It's a bold move by the game for sure, but Darklaw just ends up shocked and sad....and then we leave. We just pack our bags and have Darklaw deal with the trauma of over a hundred people (including her mother) dying a horrible death at her hands. If Ema was guilty of SL-9 in 1-5 (but Gant was guilty of murdering Goodman), the ending would still have a lot of heart to it and leave the player with a feeling of hope. The ending of PLvAA just kind of made me feel shitty on the inside. Not just for Darklaw, but for the townspeople as well. T&T had a sad ending, too, but the ending felt more bittersweet (plus, the end credits song accompanying those feelings ). The ending to PLvAA felt a little underdeveloped. Everyone basically said, "Good luck with those traumas, Darklaw!" and that was that. No doubt Espella is also going to feel terrible for convincing Darklaw to go up to the tower in the first place

Can I just say I agree with every word in this post?

"It's never too late to learn that growing old doesn't have to mean growing up. Stay curious, stay weird, stay kind, and don't let anyone ever tell you you aren't smart or brave or worthy enough." -Stanford Pines, Gravity Falls

Sooooo, I just got through the game, and while I'm sure my points have been said in various posts on the board, I still do want to put in my two cents.

Spoiler: Entire Game

So, I had been really hyped for the game, because I really love Ace Attorney, and I've heard great things about Professor Layton, so this seemed like it was gonna be good. And for ~15 hours of my playthrough, I thought it was a very solid game, with some small issues here and there, which I'll get to in a minute. Then I reach the end. All the plotholes and such have already been discussed, so I'm not going to go in depth there, but lets just say this. The ending doesn't make sense sure, but I'd be willing to forgive the ending, if it hadn't thrown everything about the story told up to that point away.

From my impression of Professor Layton, being the first game with Professor Layton in it I've played, and from speaking with a friend, Professor Layton seems to be concerned simply with finding the basic truth of the situation, while Phoenix Wright is more about human action, the consequences of their actions, and what drives those actions. So Phoenix Wright is more character-based, which makes sense for a game simply about crime, so when a large chunk of the PL vs AA story was told through the lens of the trials, making it more based around the characters being driven to commit horrible actions. The ending of that solved the mystery, in what seems to be a much more Professor Layton style, but it throws away the character elements so essential to not only Ace Attorney, but the trial mechanic itself.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, the end became not about "Who did it, and why?", but "How?", especially when we were figuring out which little kid was the one who rung the bell. The ace attorney player inside me doesn't really care, as it was just a simple childish mistake, that had no culpability either way. I didn't feel good proving that Darklaw was the one who rung the bell, instead we just shift immense trauma and blame to someone who made a truly honest mistake, not knowing the consequences.

So that's it about the ending, but I do want to say, a few things about the character writing earlier in the game seem off. Many people have mentioned how they got "the feels" when Phoenix broke down about Maya, especially when the music box Turnabout Sisters came on (so beautiful), but to me, the way Phoenix acted just seemed... well out-of-character. Maybe I'm remembering him wrong, but he was always the man who sure, showed emotion, but never moped around, instead making sure he got things done, and well, he was moping around hard then. Phoenix seemed on the verge of giving up, and that just seems so foreign for me. There were a few other tiny parts where the characters just didn't seem like themselves, but otherwise it wasn't too bad.

Last off, I just want to comment on the music. Sure its not very original, but every song was really well done, especially the remix of Won the Lawsuit!~The First Success, the original being probably #2 in the entire series for me, and the credits theme was rather nice.

Overall, well made game, that just falls apart in the ending, and it really ruins it for me. (Maybe because I'm playing this as an Ace Attorney fan, since it does seem that those who have more experience with Layton seem to be okay with it all)

Of course, there are things that were just groan-worthy. The apparent deaths of Layton and Maya weren't really fooling me, because you'd have to be a fool to kill off a main character in a crossover.

Spoiler:

I would personally say this still had shock value. Of course it wasn't in the way of "Oh no! I can't believe they're dead!" but more in the way of "What!? How are they even going to explain this!? Maya literally burned to death right in front of us, and Professor Layton was literally turned to gold right in front of us!"

OK, I didn't think the giant plot twist was that bad. I have played the entire Layton series, after all.

The end was a little deflating, but the beginning through the middle of the game was awesome and I was full of hype. It was a great game and I'd like it if Layton and Wright could meet again, but if not, that's fine.

....Was I the only one who thought that Bezella the witch was going to be Eve the cat? I felt like that would be a pretty crazy plot twist but then it turned out magic didn't exist...

I wonder if it's possible if Eve the cat is actually Sissel from Ghost Trick. I kept imagining the cat using ghost tricks and confounding Layton and Wright to no end.

OK, one last thing, it's hard to believe but this is technically the final Professor Layton game. Even though that "Layton 7" thing is coming eventually, I don't think the Professor is going to be involved... or at least, the crew of voice actors for the series was told that this was the end. I do wonder what will happen to the Layton series. I would be alright if this was the last game, but something tells me it isn't.

Want to play my custom-made Ace Attorney case made on Ace Attorney Online? (you must be using Firefox to run it)Turnabout Destiny

....Was I the only one who thought that Bezella the witch was going to be Eve the cat? I felt like that would be a pretty crazy plot twist but then it turned out magic didn't exist...

Spoiler:

The possibility did cross my mind. Espella kept going on about how Eve was a faithful friend, so I wondered if it could just be a cover for Bezella. After all, an innocent bird tricked Luke into opening a window so that a witch could abduct Bezella (or at least, that's what LOOKED to be the case. Could've just been a mix of an innocent bird and a witch using the night to her advantage). Who's to say another animal wasn't keeping its eye on Espella? Even though that turned out to not be the case...

I kind of scratch my head every time I see the complaint that characters are weaker in PLvPWAA because it uses mob-cross examinations and the majority of the cast are Layton like caricatured characters.

I mean, c'mon, they have much more characterization and involvement than any other boring NPC in the other Layton games. I always skip the optional dialogue in Layton games because I've found after a couple of times you realize the side-characters are completely one-note and flat and they don't have anything interesting or funny to say for the most part. In PLvPWAA a lot of the derp characters actually had more substance to them.

And don't you come and say that you think Phineas Filch is a better character than Emeer for example. Phineas can pretty much be summarized as *steals possession* "Oh, Cat's outta the bag, run for the hills!", he was a really flat character. Emeer actually does stuff that makes him more entertaining at least.

I just think that at least if you compare Dual Destinies to this game, lots of characters even in the DLC episode of DD talk like broken records. They all have one or two lines that they just keep repeating and I always thought it made them seem less real. That's what I like about PLvPWAA. It takes the uninteresting Layton esque characters and gives them actual personalities and they feel more real to me than in an official Layton game.

Not arguing that Lettie Mailer or alike are that deep. But try comparing them to controversial ones like Mike Meekins and Spark Brushel, and you'll see they're actually every bit as substantial, so in that sense Takumi really just took the PL characters and made them more like our usual witnesses.

They had more substance than PL characters but less than AA characters (even including AJ, which was the absolute worst game for characters IMO)

Takumi often rides the line between a character being annoying and funny with certain characters, but I did think Emeer was golden and WAAAAAAY better than Oldbag or Larry. I burst out laughing every time he appeared and was waiting for him to be the 11th member of the vigilantes

The major characters are more my problem. The main quadrio was fine (special mention to Phoenix and Luke) but comparing this game to Dual Destinies, Barnham doesn't hold a candle to Blackquill, Darklaw is worse than Aura, the Storyteller is worse than Fulbright (might not be the best comparison), and I even thought Espella was worse than Athena

Regarding eccentric witnesses, I thought Dual Destinies did a pretty good job. Characters had more of an identity, I thought. Norma Deplume doesn't just talk about writing books, for example. Scuttlebutt isn't just a reporter in a box. Rimes isn't just a rapper. Way better than someone like Lettie Mailer, who has no identity outside of her job

The major characters are more my problem. The main quadrio was fine (special mention to Phoenix and Luke) but comparing this game to Dual Destinies, Barnham doesn't hold a candle to Blackquill, Darklaw is worse than Aura, the Storyteller is worse than Fulbright (might not be the best comparison), and I even thought Espella was worse than Athena

I definitely agree with this. One thing though, comparing the Storyteller to Fulbright probably isn't a good comparison because the Storyteller really isn't a villain, or at least he's like every single Prof. Layton antagonist-an anti-villain. I was expecting this from the start that he wasn't evil because it was a PL game.

Want to play my custom-made Ace Attorney case made on Ace Attorney Online? (you must be using Firefox to run it)Turnabout Destiny

I definitely agree with this. One thing though, comparing the Storyteller to Fulbright probably isn't a good comparison because the Storyteller really isn't a villain, or at least he's like every single Prof. Layton antagonist-an anti-villain. I was expecting this from the start that he wasn't evil because it was a PL game.

That's true. The Storyteller and Blackquill would probably be a better comparison, but Barnham and Blackquill is a better comparison than that so...

The closest the Storyteller comes to a DD character is Damian Tenma, and he's not even a major character

Way better than someone like Lettie Mailer, who has no identity outside of her job

Daw, don't go hatin' on poor Lettie. Sure, she can really screech and all (actually, it's more obvious in the Japanese version; her signature call in English was pretty cute), but she's a sweet soul. By endgame, she and Jean become pretty good friends.

Besides, just because a character doesn't have much development doesn't make said character bad. It's only when a character is expected or meant to have development (aka the main characters) but doesn't that makes it bad writing. Any sort of development for minor characters is merely icing on the cake. And adding too many plot-central details to sugarcoat a main character can have just as bad of repercussions. Cakes need icing, but not too much, or they become less of cakes and more of frosting. Too much frosting can cause cavities and high blood pressure; not good for people. (And yes, I'm still talking in analogies to story writing. Cavities are plotholes, and the high blood pressure is forced suspension of disbelief.)

But now I'm hungry for cake. Maybe I'll just stick with cookies...

The home of the Gyakuten Saiban vs Ace Attorney blog: http://gyakutengagotoku.tumblr.comVarious official AA stuff translations currently in the works.Updated to include tributes and more to the Yakuza game series. I'm forever trapped in karaoke hell.

Quite frankly, I was disappointed.That's not to say I didn't still have a lot of fun with it.Seeing the Layton characters interact with the AA characters was pretty cool. I very much enjoyed the segments that had Layton standing in court. At the same time, though, suspension of disbelief only got me so far with this game.

Spoiler:

The "not being able to see pure black" thing I felt was really weak. I seriously cannot believe there is all that machinery in the town and no one ever bumped into anything or a bird never perched on it or anything like that. Especially with the bell tower. That thing was HUGE and in the center of a town square. I was also very heavily bothered by Espella's suicide attempt. I felt like the game didn't give that the weight it should have had. They caught her and suddenly she was all better? All of the things happening in her mind to cause her to make that jump have just vanished? Nahhh

The game definitely excelled in making me feel like I was playing both a Layton and an AA game, though it did tend toward Layton a bit. I never really felt like one side was taking too much precedence over the other. Though, I did feel like they innovated a lot with AA (multiple witnesses, limited evidence, the ability to compare testimony, the witness reaction feature), while the gameplay on the Layton front felt fairly weak. The puzzles were almost all incredibly easy. I don't have a lot of experience with Layton games, but from what I've played, the puzzles were fairly weak.

The court segments had a nice bit of challenge, however. It certainly didn't feel as easy as Dual Destinies. Though, from an AA standpoint, I never felt any huge "A-HA" or "OH WHAT" moments. It all felt fairly predictable.

In the end, I don't regret playing it, and I think if you're a fan of both series, go for it, but I don't know if I'll replay it.

I've visited this site for many years, but this time I felt like I needed to make an account just to express my opinions about this game.

I'd like to state some things about the Ace Attorney style of gameplay.

Spoiler:

Being a huge fan of both games, I have to say this feels like another Layton game, with Phoenix Wright segments glued together, which isn't bad. There are several things I loved they combined, such as the "play button" in the lower screen, as it has always been in every single AA game. So when I first saw that button while playing as Layton, I was like "wow.... this feels odd.... but it's amazing!". Also, the first instant that Espella starts to talk, one can notice the distinctive sound that is always used in the AA games. Until the moment, I hadn't realized that only the characters that belong to the Layton franchise have their own "text sound" from previous Layton games. So I loved how each franchise maintained their iconic sounds.

It was nice seeing how the exclamation marks were added to the game as opposed to the gauge, as it made feel the AA segment "classic", but I have always liked the gauge system, it is more fair with minor errors.

A nice addition too was being able to use hint coins in trials, and they came specially handy when one was at one mistake to lose the case, but I felt that they didn't allow the player to really think thoroughly about the contradictions in the statements. I guess this was aimed for the more casual players that might have been playing the Layton games.

I also loved how new shouts were added, such as "Welcome" and "Hang On!", not to mention the references to a parrot being a witness and the ladder/step ladder debates.

Having "logic" excluded of the trials was great, since it allowed other ways of proving things and showing contradictions, such as the gems of the scpeters or using pieces of testimony as evidence against other statements (this part reminded me of the usual Layton puzzles where the player needs to find out who is saying the truth or who is lying)

What I disliked a lot is that during the trials one can't advance testimony previously read. I don't remember since which game this feature was added, but for me it's something that comes naturally, so when I found out that I couldn't fast forward the text I felt a little frustrated, specially because at first I thought that Phoenix and Maya talked VERY slow, having a lot of pauses, as well as the other characters that had AA text speech sound effect.

Also, when the characters smash the table during the courts, the screen does not shake as in other games, so I felt like Phoenix wasn't pounding hard enough his desk.

And how come Phoenix's badge is never shown in the Court Record as evidence? That is also a trademark of the AA games. Some character profiles were ommited as well in the courts, because yes, maybe they weren't necessary at all, but it is well known that any character that steps into court or is relevant to the case gets his own profile listed in the profile section of the Court Record.

To be honest, having multiple witnesses at the time is one of the best gameplay mechanics that has been added to the franchise. In the last case, having all those Vigilantes standing in court was hilarious and extremely messy. I thought an individual profile was going to be added to the profiles list for every Vigilante, but they just put together all into a single one. I felt that like being a little bit lazy. Some cases have had more witnesses and at those times it wasn't a problem having each witness listed individually.

The thing that truly disappointed me was that Phoenix wasn't able to use his Magatama (this is one of the gameplay elements that fascinates me, being able to break through people's minds by unlocking their psycho locks) . I know that if the game was based around the first AA, Phoenix shouldn't have had that tool yet. But the thing that was even more disappointing was that Maya never used her powers. I thought that maybe at some point Mia would appear in the game, adding some paranormal elements to the world of Professor Layton, where everything is never what it seems to be and in the end everything has a rather exteremely impossible but logical answer. It would have been nice if magic really existed after all....

I love Professor Layton, I truly do, but it would have been nice to see him being mistaken for once) just like in the original teaser trailer of the game), and there is no better person to point a contradiction than Phoenix. Layton as a prosecutor wasn't memorable and that causes me a lot of pain, but at least they had a showdown at some point.

I know I may have pointed a lot of complaints about the gameplay mechanics of the AA parts, but the cases in the game were incredible, they had lots of funny parts and having at some point believing that magic truly existed was a nice twist into the world of Phoenix Wright as well.

And how come there was no Jingle after every chapter and before saving?!!! That's why I feel this is a Professor Layton game with AA mechanics added.

When I finished it I had conflicting thoughts, I felt like chapters Prologue-5 were great and had that magical feel that I wanted the game to have, but chapters 6-Epilogue sort of "betrayed" the expectations I had for the game because of the plot twist and overall direction the plot was going. I guess the first part just felt more Ace attorney while the second one was more Layton.

However, the more I remember about the game the more I like it. In the past week it's gone up from "OK" to "Good" to "Great" in my head, up to the point where I'm actually thinking about replaying it (Something that I rarely do with games). I feel it could be the writing that's dragging me back into the game, or maybe the music.

Gameplay-wise I loved the mob cross examinations, the overall chaos in the second witch trial and the first part of the final trial was hilarious. The idea of magic is also great but I feel like it was a bit under-used, overall the only thing I think this game needed was another witch trial at some point in the plot since I think the game had great ideas and characters that just weren't used very often.Layton is still Layton though and the puzzles were a good way to pass the time, albeit being easier than the previous games (Which I don't really mind).

I beat the game in only 19 hours, much less than what I expected, but those are 19 hours I'd happily replay.

Just finished it. Layton vs. Wright is now my favorite game. No complaints. Tons of things I could go on and on about absolutely loving...

Spoiler: Potentially Spoils Everything

To start with the gameplay, the game felt like a crossover, because that's what it was. I enjoyed it from the beginning, and enjoyed it until the end. That's because the game is fun. I've played Ace Attorney games and Layton games before this, and both were previously all-time favorites, so I'm not exactly a neutral reviewer, but if you like puzzles and thinking the game can't disappoint you that much. We can try to talk about hypotheticals that could make some people enjoy the idea of the crossover even more, but when it comes down to it the game had the themes of an Ace Attorney game (awesome courtroom battles, examining crime scenes... oh did I mention Maya being accused of murder and cross examining a parrot?) and a Layton game (solving puzzles, being a gentleman... uncovering giant secrets that involve an entire town, more puzzles, so many puzzles). I had a blast "investigating" from Layton's perspective, and the trials were so unique and set apart from your typical cases because of all the quirks in Labyrinthia. That's probably one of the reasons I can vouch for not only my personal enjoyment but also the quality of the game. Given that this is a combination of two games, rather than trying to accomplish EVERYTHING that either game series could, it instead focuses on all of the innovative things that would not be possible otherwise. You would never have to base your logic and arguments around magic and the laws of witchcraft in a typical Ace Attorney game. I cannot see the Professor coming back after supposedly being turned to gold and temporarily serving as an inquisitor in your usual Layton game. The fact that the sections of one type of gameplay wouldn't stand alone against the main series may be partially why some people don't like it as much, but I'm looking at it as a whole and don't think I could have enjoyed it any more than I already did.Well unless I got 135 hours of gameplay out of my first runthrough instead of 35 hours, but I doubt that could have happened :P

As for the plot, I'm sure there are different experiences for different people, but I don't think I'm going to stop thinking about this beautiful story for a long time. It more than lived up to the famous, intricate, moving events that Layton and Phoenix have been a part of before, in my opinion. The idea behind it was exciting, and with the amazing setting and characters, I don't know what is better. Sure, Labyrinthia isn't a "normal" place, but I for one wish so badly I could actually visit there. Not exactly sure why, it just sort of stuck with me. Okay, so not every character is as 3 dimensional as the 3DS screen they show up on, if you know what I mean, but most of them are likable to a certain degree, and have that essential Capcom flair of humanity that stands out so much in the main Ace Attorney games. Something incredibly unique is that the game doesn't actually have any absolute "villians." This didn't come to mind as I was playing the game, but it's definitely notable. Everyone has personalities, and crime and deception is simply them acting on what they believe in. The overarching plot was the best god damn experience I can remember from any plot in a videogame. I'm sure there are better ones, and ones with equally as much emotion and artwork in them, but this one in particular left a lasting effect for me. If you're reading this even though it's marked as spoilers, you've probably already played the game, so I don't think I need to go much in depth on what it was. Why did I like it? For one thing, I just LOVE thinking, and solving themes, and all of the intellectual nuances that lead me to playing this type of game in the first place. The fact that the overarching plot itself is "part of the puzzle" seems to work perfectly in how it is presented. I think I liked it so much because it revolved around really interesting things, like people and what they care about... their secrets... and overall just who they are. People in this game aren't defined by their actions, it is almost as if their actions are defined by them. They fit. It is essential not only to the story but to the feelings that the story create inside of us (or at least me). Moments like when Jean reads the suicide note, and Phoenix's core shattering after the "loss" of Maya... there is something very real about them. This isn't just because it's some "big" or "emotional" event. If I just described the idea of them to someone who hadn't played the game that just doesn't have any effect. It's ultimately because of how the story is presented, and who the characters are.

This brings me to my final point: Espella. A selfless character who cares about others. Sounds kind of general and safe, right? As the story progresses though, this is clearly not the case. When I was reading a bit of this thread, I was shocked (and a bit upset... I'm explaining why) to see that some people actually complained that her character was "too nice" and "stereotypical." She really isn't, though. What makes Espella more than that is how her selflessness affects her. To say the least, her selflessness is a virtue that is also a hazard. it is at an unhealthy level. I don't think I should go into too many details, but I am the same way. There have been several points in my life where I ran into serious problems because of extreme thoughts that gave no consideration to myself. Ever since the witch trial in the game where Espella tried to get herself thrown into the fire just because she believed it would be best for everyone else... this game was special to me. I can honestly say that I haven't seen any other game character portrayed with such an astonishingly real (to me) relation to this side of living for others that isn't all as good as the trait makes it sound. I like to believe that if I were in Espella's circumstances, believing I could end problems in the way she tried to, I would have enough in me not to do what she did... but I cannot guarantee I wouldn't. Finding someone like this in an already amazing tale of emotion and thought... for me anyway, it just brought the entire work of art to an even more immersive feeling of appreciation and experience.

Oh, gosh, this thread exists! I actually played through PL vs AA a while back, and now I can put down my thoughts. MUAHAHAHAHA!!!

Spoiler: Spoiling the whole game

So, first of all, I gotta gush here. I love the music and the cut scenes and MAYA!!! They made hint scenes and hidden puzzles much, much easier to find, as well as traveling, which I liked. Some complain about the puzzles being too easy *ahem* my sister *ahem*, but I honestly didn't have a problem with that. As someone who loves puzzles, but sucks at solving them, I found the difficulty here to be just about right for me. The first puzzles kicked my butt pretty hard (like I said - I suck at puzzles), the ones in the middle gave me some trouble, but not much, and finally, by the end, I was able to solve all the puzzles without help and I felt I overall improved at puzzle solving, much like Phoenix Wright does, no doubt. I think the curve is just about right on the Laytonian aspect for newcomers.

The witch trials were a lot of fun, though sometimes it was difficult to tell what to do next. Not because I didn't know what to say, but because I didn't know how the game wanted me to present it. I was grateful to have the option of using hint coins during trials, even though I only had to use them rarely. Pressing multiple people was a great mechanic, I thought. Although I was as frustrated as Phoenix sometimes when the scientific stuff we have did not exist there. When Layton turns to gold and then Maya falls into the fire, I was shocked they went in that direction. I knew they both had to be okay, but then...Phoenix is all yelling at Barnham, and then....The Sisters Ballad plays on the music box, and waaaah! I cried. Twice.

I liked all the characters just fine, including Espella, the Storyteller, Darklaw, and Barnham. I wouldn't put any of them at the top of my list for best Phoenix Wright characters or best Professor Layton characters, but they are enjoyable.

And now we come to the part where I have the biggest complaints: the ending. The plot twist that magic doesn't really exist and the whole town has a bunch of machines that produce magic and they can't see them because of them being pure black? I totally buy it. Sure, there are holes with that idea, but hey, Professor Layton has had even harder to digest plot twists at the end in the past (and I only played the first three games). What did bother me, though, was that Barnham was just...forgotten. That whole ending trial, he's in prison. And I'm playing through like, "Yeah. Yeah. This is all fascinating stuff, but where's Barnham?" How does he find out the truth, anyway? Does Darklaw just go up to him after the trial is over and say, "Sorry for locking you up. Oh, by the way, magic isn't real and I'm actually responsible for the Great Fire." And then he just pops up at the end and gives you a boat ride like nothing happened. I would have just liked to see more from him. It seems to me like he could have legitimately had a lot of personal growth while he was locked up as a traitor, or even afterward. But nope, it's just never addressed.

And Darklaw being responsible for everything was...tragically predictable. Espella didn't do it and Darklaw was the only other one there. I think someone else earlier in this thread already encapsulated it the best.

Darklaw: I am responsible...for everything. My father's death...all the lives lost in the fire...it's my fault. Phoenix and co.: Well, good luck handling all that grief! We're going back to London now! Repair the town and everything in our absence, m'kay?

Still, though, I love this game to pieces. I think some opportunities were missed for some of the characters to grow or develop more, and every once in a while, I was ahead of the game (like I am in most Phoenix Wright games) and had to adjust to go at the game's pace, but I forgive these flaws in a heartbeat. The game gave me legitimate feels when Layton turned to gold and when Maya fell into the fire. The soundtrack was wonderful. The characters were memorable (though much of the cast would not be in my favorite characters list for either franchise). The cut scenes were fantastic! The voice work was all marvelous. And it was all so pretty! It's easily the best game I've played this year and would make it onto my list of my favorite games of all time, if I made such lists.

Yeah. Although I praised the game to death, I will say I completely agree with you as far as the way the ending handled Barnham and Darklaw

Spoiler: The Ending

Except for the idea that everything was Darklaw's fault. Sure she was the one to ring the bell, but when it comes down to it, Espella and Eve were both innocent children who just happened to get involved in a large mistake. I'm not saying Darklaw isn't going to have trouble coping with the painful entirety of truth that was revealed, but she has many people to help her though this rough aftermath and I believe in them to show that everything is okay. There wasn't exactly a better scenario for helping her that could involve Layton and Wright given their situations.

...Speaking of their situation though... isn't that essentially a government-aided program being used for kidnapping?Not that there's anything wrong with a government-aided program being used for kidnapping I mean Labyrinthia is hella rad and all

Yeah. Although I praised the game to death, I will say I completely agree with you as far as the way the ending handled Barnham and Darklaw

Spoiler: The Ending

Except for the idea that everything was Darklaw's fault. Sure she was the one to ring the bell, but when it comes down to it, Espella and Eve were both innocent children who just happened to get involved in a large mistake. I'm not saying Darklaw isn't going to have trouble coping with the painful entirety of truth that was revealed, but she has many people to help her though this rough aftermath and I believe in them to show that everything is okay. There wasn't exactly a better scenario for helping her that could involve Layton and Wright given their situations.

...Speaking of their situation though... isn't that essentially a government-aided program being used for kidnapping?Not that there's anything wrong with a government-aided program being used for kidnapping I mean Labyrinthia is hella rad and all

Hmm...

Spoiler:

I actually also kinda agree on Darklaw here. I also want to add that hearing you did something wrong years upon years ago is much less bad than living with guilt all these years from childhood. Imagine the difference between thinking your whole life that you were responsible for such a tragedy, or only just learning you were responsible for it years ago. I agree both are shocking and traumatizing, but I'd argue the latter is less so.

What did bother me, though, was that Barnham was just...forgotten. That whole ending trial, he's in prison. And I'm playing through like, "Yeah. Yeah. This is all fascinating stuff, but where's Barnham?" How does he find out the truth, anyway? Does Darklaw just go up to him after the trial is over and say, "Sorry for locking you up. Oh, by the way, magic isn't real and I'm actually responsible for the Great Fire." And then he just pops up at the end and gives you a boat ride like nothing happened. I would have just liked to see more from him. It seems to me like he could have legitimately had a lot of personal growth while he was locked up as a traitor, or even afterward. But nope, it's just never addressed.

Agreed 100%! While I'll rant for hours about plot holes in the ending, I really think I could have forgiven them all if not for this.

I would tell you if i could but i have had this game for over a month now, and I have not played it yet. It's still sitting with it's original shrink wrap on my nightstand. lol. i'll get around to it i think.

Yeah. Although I praised the game to death, I will say I completely agree with you as far as the way the ending handled Barnham and Darklaw

Spoiler: The Ending

Except for the idea that everything was Darklaw's fault. Sure she was the one to ring the bell, but when it comes down to it, Espella and Eve were both innocent children who just happened to get involved in a large mistake. I'm not saying Darklaw isn't going to have trouble coping with the painful entirety of truth that was revealed, but she has many people to help her though this rough aftermath and I believe in them to show that everything is okay. There wasn't exactly a better scenario for helping her that could involve Layton and Wright given their situations.

...Speaking of their situation though... isn't that essentially a government-aided program being used for kidnapping?Not that there's anything wrong with a government-aided program being used for kidnapping I mean Labyrinthia is hella rad and all

Well, I think I phrased that part of my post poorly. What I meant was...

Spoiler: The Ending

Of course not everything was Darklaw's fault. It wasn't her fault the bell was there despite the danger, or that neither she nor Espella were told the truth when it came to that bell. What I meant was that everyone just kinda leaves after the truth is revealed, when I think one additional scene could have made all the difference. Say they talked to Eve a bit more when she was vulnerable after discovering the truth (I think someone as strong as Darklaw should have had a little more vulnerability, and this would have given her that element), or they witnessed Barnham being released from prison (which might have fixed the biggest problem I have with the whole game). The Phoenix Wright series is great with the additional scene after discovering the truth and making such scenes poignant. I would have loved to see that in this game, but it didn't happen. I consider it a bit of a missed opportunity is all.

Took me 24 hours, and damn it was enjoyable. Never played a Layton game before, so I was hoping the puzzles wouldn't turn me off early. Where did this guy learn his fighting skills from? I was really enjoying the new multi witness testimonies. I wish there were more evidence, making contradictions to easy. There needed to be more refills on HP. I had to do the last three chapters on 1 shield left. I really didn't like the how the game ended, I think keeping the magic would made for a better ending, but thats just me. I love the quadro, and damn was I tearing up when they got separated. Overall I'd say its my fourth favorite phoenix wright game, and I can't wait to replay it.

While the ending confused me, the rest of the game was very enjoyable. Of all of the Ace Attorney games I've played (if you consider this one) this one had me laughing out loud the most, thanks to the main four and the judge.

While the ending confused me, the rest of the game was very enjoyable. Of all of the Ace Attorney games I've played (if you consider this one) this one had me laughing out loud the most, thanks to the main four and the judge.

The last trial needed a refill of your shields.

I was a bit confused at why they added AA 1's old penalty system, since the game would've benefited far better with the new one, but oh well.

This game was down right hilarious though, and I agree with you that this made me laughing the most, the humor was just right.

Although I feel as if it was a Layton game with Phoenix Wright elements instead of an equal balance, Phoenix, Maya, and the court segments seemed like they were tacked on.

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