(26-05-2016 09:44 AM)onlinebiker Wrote: NOBODY in the USA is forced to work for peanuts.

It's a choice.

You seem to want to do away with choice - and make GOVERNMENT in charge of everyone's finances....

Well Comrade --- you may remember that didn't work out so well for the Soviets......

....

If you don't like "working for the man" -- start your own company.....

"The Man" did......

The only thing limiting you is your abilities (or more correctly, the lack thereof).

From whose perspective? Stop using the word "force"asshole, the bullying of the 1% writing all of our laws a majority of the time over the past 36 years has caused the wage gap to explode.

This isn't just about the poor, the middle class is also working longer for less and less because wages are not keeping up with the cost of living.

AND AGAIN FUCK YOU you selfish narcissistic asshole. Not everybody wants t be you. Workers are not there to fucking make you or anyone rich, workers are not numbers on a page, they are not tools. FUCK YOU because sooner or later assholes like you will learn, that you cannot keep exploding the pay gap.

Now fuckwad, nobody wants to end the private sector and nobody wants everyone to be poor to prove a loyalty oath. But you are a fucking asshole with your stupid fucking simplistic scripts thinking workers get a salary like a kid with an allowance and they should be happy with the crumbs you throw them FUCK YOU.

Ahem. I often disagree with onlinebiker myself, but you seem to be painting him as some rich business owner who doesn't give a shit about his employees. Last I heard, he's unemployed and doing his best to survive by his own wits and initiative. My argument would be that this is very hard to do. He may be up to the challenge, but not everyone is. If I didn't have a job, I'd be totally screwed.

But he certainly doesn't deserve the vitriol that you're spewing at him. He's on the same side of the "income gap" as you are.

(26-05-2016 05:39 AM)onlinebiker Wrote: What ever happened to paying what the market will bear????

There is a fundamental problem with your statement. The problem is it assumes the false premise that we are otherwise a free market economy. And, we most certainly are not. We massively subsidize all parts of the economy, both directly and indirectly. Our foreign policy and military budget is a giant subsidy for the oil industry. And, that doesn't include the tax subsidies we give the oil industry on exploration. And, that's just one example. But, we are anything but an actual free market. We influence the cost of everything. To then say "fuck those low wage people, let the market sort it out for them" is a total screw job.

That said, the $15 minimum wage is really a band aide and doesn't solve the fundamental problem, but I honestly don't have any better solutions.

Oh, and for those arguing that this is going to lead to more automation - I call bullshit. That has been happening anyway. Whether or not it speeds it up a little doesn't change the fact that the elimination of those types of jobs is a process that has been well, well on its way long before a higher minimum wage was proposed.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost

(26-05-2016 05:25 PM)BnW Wrote: Oh, and for those arguing that this is going to lead to more automation - I call bullshit. That has been happening anyway. Whether or not it speeds it up a little doesn't change the fact that the elimination of those types of jobs is a process that has been well, well on its way long before a higher minimum wage was proposed.

This is true, Jobs that can be automated, will be automated. It's only a matter of time. But when you incentivise automation by raising the cost of non-skilled labor over 100%, you are pushing this "eventuality" to become a "somewhat sudden reality".
i.e. if the cost of automation/maintenance is at around the same cost or cheaper than the cost of labor, why wouldn't a business do it?

Personally I prefer to interact with robots/computers/kiosks, so I have nothing against the shift.

Ultimately it is going to happen anyways, yes. I just don't see how making it happen sooner helps those people who will lose their jobs for it.

(26-05-2016 05:58 PM)Adrianime Wrote: But when you incentivise automation by raising the cost of non-skilled labor over 100%, you are pushing this "eventuality" to become a "somewhat sudden reality".
i.e. if the cost of automation/maintenance is at around the same cost or cheaper than the cost of labor, why wouldn't a business do it?

For big fast food companies and box stores, I doubt it changes much in terms of their timetables. It may make them move faster but I think McDonald's was well on their way towards ordering by touch screens. This certainly makes the business case for more automation look that much better, though. There is no disputing that.

It's the small business owners who really get hosed by this. Especially those who rely on high-school students. But, in general, a small business like a dry cleaner or a small grocery store is going to get completely hosed by this. With a company like McDonald's or Wal-Mart, food stamps become a kind of subsidy for them. Employees can afford to work there only because the government supplements their income. If that didn't happen, than they would have a lot more trouble finding people to work there for $7.50/hour or whatever it is they pay. But, the small business with just a few locations? They are not going to automate and not be able to afford this.

Like I said, it's a bandaid on a larger problem. Our economy has been hemorrhaging good paying jobs for decades. Our manufacturing base is mostly gone and it ain't coming back. And, there is no easy solution to that. We blame people on the bottom rungs of society for being lazy or not bettering themselves or whatever, but the reality is that we are sucking wind at every economic level but the top. And, those on the bottom can't find better paying jobs because they mostly don't exist.

It's a problem and this is not a solution. Not a long term one, anyway.

And, again - no, I don't have any good ideas on how to fix it.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost