Urbn:So, no property tax, no interest on the loan/lease, no recycling police (is that really an issue anywhere?), no farmland, a demand that everyone stores at least a year's worth of a food/supplies (but many of the housing sizes would never be able to accommodate that), and they will be off the grid (does that include trash, too?)...

This place is going to look like the slums of Brazil or India within 5 months at full occupancy...

And that's assuming they last that long before getting harsh lesson in the importance of sanitation systems when a lot of people live in close proximity.

Target Builder:Urbn: So, no property tax, no interest on the loan/lease, no recycling police (is that really an issue anywhere?), no farmland, a demand that everyone stores at least a year's worth of a food/supplies (but many of the housing sizes would never be able to accommodate that), and they will be off the grid (does that include trash, too?)...

This place is going to look like the slums of Brazil or India within 5 months at full occupancy...

And that's assuming they last that long before getting harsh lesson in the importance of sanitation systems when a lot of people live in close proximity.

If the Citadel actually happens, I think the producers of one of those hoarders shows will be able to make an entire season out of it

Target Builder:Urbn: So, no property tax, no interest on the loan/lease, no recycling police (is that really an issue anywhere?), no farmland, a demand that everyone stores at least a year's worth of a food/supplies (but many of the housing sizes would never be able to accommodate that), and they will be off the grid (does that include trash, too?)...

This place is going to look like the slums of Brazil or India within 5 months at full occupancy...

And that's assuming they last that long before getting harsh lesson in the importance of sanitation systems when a lot of people live in close proximity.

Yeah, regular cholera and typhoid outbreaks will keep opening up housing for new, company town "tenants"

Three: Every able-bodied Patriot aged 13 and older governed by this Agreement shall annually demonstrate proficiency with a handgun of choice by hitting a man-sized steel target at 25 yards with open sights at the Citadel range. Each Resident shall have 10 shots and must hit the target at least 7 times.

So, this is what they consider "proficient" with a handgun. A stationary target, from 25 yds, the size of a human, and you need to hit it 70% of the time. Heh.

Three: Every able-bodied Patriot aged 13 and older governed by this Agreement shall annually demonstrate proficiency with a handgun of choice by hitting a man-sized steel target at 25 yards with open sights at the Citadel range. Each Resident shall have 10 shots and must hit the target at least 7 times.

So, this is what they consider "proficient" with a handgun. A stationary target, from 25 yds, the size of a human, and you need to hit it 70% of the time. Heh.

Well if they use ICF then any fire in a housing unit would typically stay in it. I'm assuming since they're big on the minuteman concept a fire alarm would summon all the locals to act as volunteer firemen. The only issue would be equipment. I assume that would be bought through charity sale events like the BSA and other organizations do.

Bennie Crabtree: HAHAHA the walls on their fort design are out of date for repelling even an 1812 artillery attack. This is why history degrees are important, people.

It seems like it's not designed to keep the gov't out. More to keep control of people getting in. Most everyone doesn't have access to artillery. So I'm thinking they're going for a transient crime free community. Sorta like west of here in Slidell where most of the auto theft crime is caused by people coming into the city from outside of it.

Subtle_Canary: The defenses seem based around keeping out roaming bands of neer-do-wells after the 'inevitable' collapse of civilization. Has nothing to do with stopping a full military assault.

Three: Every able-bodied Patriot aged 13 and older governed by this Agreement shall annually demonstrate proficiency with a handgun of choice by hitting a man-sized steel target at 25 yards with open sights at the Citadel range. Each Resident shall have 10 shots and must hit the target at least 7 times.

So, this is what they consider "proficient" with a handgun. A stationary target, from 25 yds, the size of a human, and you need to hit it 70% of the time. Heh.

Farmer's market but no farms, firearms museum but no shooting range or hunting ground, and they seem to be preparing for an invasion by Vikings rather than building any sort of actually useful defensive structures... This seems ill-conceived.

Also, when did the rifle become the icon of American liberty? Surely the flag, or the bald eagle, or SOMETHING ranks higher than the rifle in terms of national symbolism. If not, we're really farked.

That looks more like a prison/work campIMEAN HAPPY CAMPS, than anything else.

Euell Gibbons:Way too many people here care way too much about how others decide to live their lives.

If consenting adults want to check themselves into a company town/slave labor camp/indentured servitude, let them...but there's a lot of talk about children on that site and that's where it turns decidedly uncool. How's that for 'liberty' being forced to shoot at human shaped things all through your childhood before you're an adult and can choose this for yourself? Or being 'educated' by barely functioning paranoids?

Well if they use ICF then any fire in a housing unit would typically stay in it. I'm assuming since they're big on the minuteman concept a fire alarm would summon all the locals to act as volunteer firemen. The only issue would be equipment. I assume that would be bought through charity sale events like the BSA and other organizations do.

Bennie Crabtree: HAHAHA the walls on their fort design are out of date for repelling even an 1812 artillery attack. This is why history degrees are important, people.

It seems like it's not designed to keep the gov't out. More to keep control of people getting in. Most everyone doesn't have access to artillery. So I'm thinking they're going for a transient crime free community. Sorta like west of here in Slidell where most of the auto theft crime is caused by people coming into the city from outside of it.

Subtle_Canary: The defenses seem based around keeping out roaming bands of neer-do-wells after the 'inevitable' collapse of civilization. Has nothing to do with stopping a full military assault.

Lost Thought 00:More than likely they will forget how to feed themselves, and then throw a hissy fit when the nearest megamart does accept barter

Nah. They'll have their emergency seed kits to last until they forget to rotate crops for a few years. And enough wild game to last one season until they over-harvest because they just like shooting stuff.

The comment about the recycling police made me wonder what their plan is for garbage removal. Burn it or bury it I guess.The thing about modern cities is that we take for granted garbage service, sewers, and water treatment. These people will likely suffer from every disease you could die from in Oregon Trail.

El Dudereno:Lost Thought 00: More than likely they will forget how to feed themselves, and then throw a hissy fit when the nearest megamart does accept barter

Nah. They'll have their emergency seed kits to last until they forget to rotate crops for a few years. And enough wild game to last one season until they over-harvest because they just like shooting stuff.

The comment about the recycling police made me wonder what their plan is for garbage removal. Burn it or bury it I guess.The thing about modern cities is that we take for granted garbage service, sewers, and water treatment. These people will likely suffer from every disease you could die from in Oregon Trail.

El Dudereno:Lost Thought 00: More than likely they will forget how to feed themselves, and then throw a hissy fit when the nearest megamart does accept barter

Nah. They'll have their emergency seed kits to last until they forget to rotate crops for a few years. And enough wild game to last one season until they over-harvest because they just like shooting stuff.

The comment about the recycling police made me wonder what their plan is for garbage removal. Burn it or bury it I guess.The thing about modern cities is that we take for granted garbage service, sewers, and water treatment. These people will likely suffer from every disease you could die from in Oregon Trail.

Diptheria was my favorite!

/Also, those seed kits are pretty useless without farmland to plant them in.

El Dudereno:Lost Thought 00: More than likely they will forget how to feed themselves, and then throw a hissy fit when the nearest megamart does accept barter

Nah. They'll have their emergency seed kits to last until they forget to rotate crops for a few years. And enough wild game to last one season until they over-harvest because they just like shooting stuff.

The comment about the recycling police made me wonder what their plan is for garbage removal. Burn it or bury it I guess.The thing about modern cities is that we take for granted garbage service, sewers, and water treatment. These people will likely suffer from every disease you could die from in Oregon Trail.

While this bills itself as a walled off city, it will most certainly be more akin to a neighborhood/town. I imagine waste disposal and sewage will be treated like in any suburban development.

Here's the nifty things from a utility perspective. Since it's a planned community, they can set sewage, water, and telecom lines in a planned matter so it'll be cheaper to maintain and provide better service. With the right telecom planning they could all end up with faster internet than 90% of America.

One of the things I don't like about myself is the hope that a massive earthquake destroys this place and they get to discover how effective their 30 caliber penis substitutes are to deal with a natural disaster. You need clean water, you say? Just shoot holes in the ground, Jesus and Jefferson will guide you.

It has a post office. I thought they hated the government? Why would they avail themselves of government services? If they're so bootstrappy, why not start their own Pony Express or something? No mooching off my tax dollars! *harumph*

No credit or background checks, a lifetime lease, free guns, in a fortress in the middle of nowhere. Anyone else see "Meth Lab World" developing here? Maybe get one of those 10,000ft homes inside the walls with 1 acre. Grow pot in the back yard (just say it's hemp for rope...), cook meth in the 10 x 30 workshop and live the, erm, high-life in your 10,000 ft home inside the fort. If anyone asks what you're doing in your workshop, just calmly "Preserving Liberty" and reach for your AR15.

When the feds show up, just close the gate and wait for the black helicopters.

El Dudereno:Lost Thought 00: More than likely they will forget how to feed themselves, and then throw a hissy fit when the nearest megamart does accept barter

Nah. They'll have their emergency seed kits to last until they forget to rotate crops for a few years. And enough wild game to last one season until they over-harvest because they just like shooting stuff.

The comment about the recycling police made me wonder what their plan is for garbage removal. Burn it or bury it I guess.The thing about modern cities is that we take for granted garbage service, sewers, and water treatment. These people will likely suffer from every disease you could die from in Oregon Trail.

Actually, it seems like the bigger issue may be transportation. All traffic is forced to the perimeter road. Though you have the option of going left or right from any point to arrive at any other it will cause traffic jams near popular areas such as the gate. Parking near the commercial areas would be problematic.

Mrbogey:Here's the nifty things from a utility perspective. Since it's a planned community, they can set sewage, water, and telecom lines in a planned matter so it'll be cheaper to maintain and provide better service. With the right telecom planning they could all end up with faster internet than 90% of America.

Yes I'm sure companies will be lining up to do business with some nutjobs in a walled compound.

Mrbogey:El Dudereno: Lost Thought 00: More than likely they will forget how to feed themselves, and then throw a hissy fit when the nearest megamart does accept barter

Nah. They'll have their emergency seed kits to last until they forget to rotate crops for a few years. And enough wild game to last one season until they over-harvest because they just like shooting stuff.

The comment about the recycling police made me wonder what their plan is for garbage removal. Burn it or bury it I guess.The thing about modern cities is that we take for granted garbage service, sewers, and water treatment. These people will likely suffer from every disease you could die from in Oregon Trail.

While this bills itself as a walled off city, it will most certainly be more akin to a neighborhood/town. I imagine waste disposal and sewage will be treated like in any suburban development.

Here's the nifty things from a utility perspective. Since it's a planned community, they can set sewage, water, and telecom lines in a planned matter so it'll be cheaper to maintain and provide better service. With the right telecom planning they could all end up with faster internet than 90% of America.

A faster way to update their geocities websites and post pictures of themselves in banana hammocks next to their arsenals. Great.

Mrbogey:El Dudereno: Lost Thought 00: More than likely they will forget how to feed themselves, and then throw a hissy fit when the nearest megamart does accept barter

Nah. They'll have their emergency seed kits to last until they forget to rotate crops for a few years. And enough wild game to last one season until they over-harvest because they just like shooting stuff.

The comment about the recycling police made me wonder what their plan is for garbage removal. Burn it or bury it I guess.The thing about modern cities is that we take for granted garbage service, sewers, and water treatment. These people will likely suffer from every disease you could die from in Oregon Trail.

While this bills itself as a walled off city, it will most certainly be more akin to a neighborhood/town. I imagine waste disposal and sewage will be treated like in any suburban development.

Here's the nifty things from a utility perspective. Since it's a planned community, they can set sewage, water, and telecom lines in a planned matter so it'll be cheaper to maintain and provide better service. With the right telecom planning they could all end up with faster internet than 90% of America.

They can do a lot of things--smart things, thoughtful things, forward-thinking things. You know who usually avoids smart, thoughtful, forward-thinking approaches to modern life? The target audience for places like III Citadel. Do you really think they'd BRAG about "no recycling police," phrasing it in exactly that stupid way, but have a modern, efficient, well-planned and comprehensive waste management system in place? The answer...is no.

My 8th grade social studies class did a project on creating a planned community once. That thing had more thought and expertise put into it than III Citadel appears to.

LoneWolf343:Wait, so they have a huge space for a gun factory to produce weapons they expect to become illegal...who will they be selling the guns to? Themselves?

This is just one of a planned trade network* of walled nutbowls. Each will specialize in producing one needed good: guns, ammo, flags, patriotic hats, inchoate rage, and so forth. When America That Was descends into fiery chaos due to slightly better-regulated healthcare, these bright stars will form the new American constellation.

Teufelaffe:Granny_Panties: Lady Beryl Ersatz-Wendigo: FTFA: Physical preparedness to survive and prevail in the face of natural catastrophes - such as Hurricanes Sandy or Katrina - or man-made catastrophes such as a power grid failure or economic collapse.

Do you get a great many hurricanes in Idaho?

Probably not, but a few might have imaginary friends like scarecrows, lions, tin men, and flying monkeys.

Raharu:Twelve: Violations of this Agreement will result in review by an arbitration panel consisting of Citadel Residents with appropriate and proportional disciplinary action taken. The most severe disciplinary action may include the loss of Lease and expulsion from the community.

Thirteen: All Citadel Citizens agree to accept dispute resolution by an arbitration panel in the event a problem that cannot be resolved between residents.

Those will be the sort of people who are fundamentally incapable of cooperation in any way. I foresee much violence in the community.

NeverDrunk23:They will turn it into the exact oppressive society that they constantly claim to protest and fear the government will turn into.

So:1) a bunch of these nutters voluntarily remove themselves from the rest of society2) they serve as an example to some people that are considering this sort of idea, changing some minds in the process3) delicious irony shall be feasted upon by the rest of us... and we'll share with each other... cuz we's teh soshulizts....

Mrbogey:El Dudereno: Lost Thought 00: More than likely they will forget how to feed themselves, and then throw a hissy fit when the nearest megamart does accept barter

Nah. They'll have their emergency seed kits to last until they forget to rotate crops for a few years. And enough wild game to last one season until they over-harvest because they just like shooting stuff.

The comment about the recycling police made me wonder what their plan is for garbage removal. Burn it or bury it I guess.The thing about modern cities is that we take for granted garbage service, sewers, and water treatment. These people will likely suffer from every disease you could die from in Oregon Trail.

While this bills itself as a walled off city, it will most certainly be more akin to a neighborhood/town. I imagine waste disposal and sewage will be treated like in any suburban development.

Here's the nifty things from a utility perspective. Since it's a planned community, they can set sewage, water, and telecom lines in a planned matter so it'll be cheaper to maintain and provide better service. With the right telecom planning they could all end up with faster internet than 90% of America.

They didn't even plan for enough farmland to feed even a small fraction of these families; I sincerely doubt they've planned anything nifty for any other practicality. They put more thought into what age someone should be able to shoot headshots at 70% than they did anything around the day to day logistics of this community.

NewportBarGuy:Oh Jesus. Now that I actually read that... Wow. Yes, keep them all in one place, please. Proceed.

This is the new exploitable opportunity. This isn't the only "planned community" gearing up to become a bizarre little entrenched settlement, and the asking price to get in something like this is very steep.

Don't Troll Me Bro!:So:1) a bunch of these nutters voluntarily remove themselves from the rest of society2) they serve as an example to some people that are considering this sort of idea, changing some minds in the process3) delicious irony shall be feasted upon by the rest of us... and we'll share with each other... cuz we's teh soshulizts....

I'm okay with this

I just feel sorry for the collateral damage they'd do; family members, children they'd take out with them, delivery men or police they'd kill for daring show up at their fortress of derpitude, etc.

FormlessOne:NewportBarGuy: Oh Jesus. Now that I actually read that... Wow. Yes, keep them all in one place, please. Proceed.

This is the new exploitable opportunity. This isn't the only "planned community" gearing up to become a bizarre little entrenched settlement, and the asking price to get in something like this is very steep.

Just follow the money, and see where it goes.

Easy; the firearm manufacturer who came up with this whole idea, who coincidentally has a firearms factory in a town where the residents are required to own firearms. I'm sure they'll get a sizable amount from selling their concrete corporate houses that the residents get to pay to finish, as well. Oh, and the money laundering with those fancy "Citadel Coins".