Not clear he's exactly right. For a single application, on the 18 month depreciation cycle, a $200 upgrade price is $11/month. For the first year on CC, an existing qualifying PS user will pay $10/month, and thereafter $20/month. So there is one year of cost protection, then the price about doubles. But we are getting all the new features as they come out in real time, and some other services. So the comparison isn't exactly apples-to-apples. But the bottom line remains that Adobe converts us to renters, puts us on a treadmill and takes more money from us - eventually. Whether enough people believe the value returned is worthwhile will determine whether this model works.

Don't forget about the 20GB cloud storage. You can really use this to store your images and not worry about onsite backup (he says with his voice dripping with sarcasm)!

Not clear he's exactly right. For a single application, on the 18 month depreciation cycle, a $200 upgrade price is $11/month. For the first year on CC, an existing qualifying PS user will pay $10/month, and thereafter $20/month. So there is one year of cost protection, then the price about doubles. But we are getting all the new features as they come out in real time, and some other services. So the comparison isn't exactly apples-to-apples. But the bottom line remains that Adobe converts us to renters, puts us on a treadmill and takes more money from us - eventually. Whether enough people believe the value returned is worthwhile will determine whether this model works.

I paid about $185 for my CS6 upgrade (shipped free!), so I think I was accurate enough to state "exactly". I agree that the comparison is not apples-to-apples: for the same price over the next year, we get access to new features and updates that we don't get to keep. And after that the price doubles for the same ephemeral product. The previous apple was MUCH tastier.

Oh and those super duper sale prices if you are a current owner? Yeah two big issues there. First, they ONLY apply IF you bought directly from Adobe for your current version. I don't know any one that has, we all get stuff on sales through stores or through association discounts at retailers like B&H. Second, those nifty discounts are ONLY for the first 12 months. They you get the full unlubed shaft.

As to LR5, it's up in the air if it will still be standalone or not. I saw this notice earlier today and had a chat with support asking just that, since the website has contradictory info on the subject. Direct from support, they don't know.

"Naveen: Hello! Welcome to Adobe Customer Service.Naveen: Hi Bryan.Naveen: May I please have your email address registered with Adobe?Bryan: bryan@bgpictures.comNaveen: Thank you for your email address.Naveen: I have reviewed your request.Naveen: I will be glad to check and help you accordingly.Naveen: Bryan, Lightroom 4 is available as a standalone product and also included in Creative Cloud Membership.Bryan: What about when 5 is released, will that be stand alone as well?Naveen: Sorry for the wait. Please do stay online.Bryan: okNaveen: Please allow me two minutes to check and help you further.Bryan: okNaveen: I'll be right with you.Naveen: I am sorry for the delay. Please allow me three more minutes to check and help you further.Naveen: Thank you for your patience and time.Naveen: I am sorry, we don't have any information about lightroom 5, whether the product will be sold as a stand alone product or only as part of the creative cloud.Naveen: The information will be available only when the product is launched.Bryan: Do you know if it will be released before the end of the sales going on right now for CC?Naveen: I apologize for any inconvenience that might have caused to you in this regard.Naveen: I am sorry we don't have any information about lightroom 5.Bryan: OK thanks"

Well it looks like we're mostly PS-only users here. We're more than a little shaded by this CC thing. But for somebody using 2 or more big applications, CC is a darned good deal! I wonder how many Adobe customers are multiple application users? One view is that single app users are underwriting multiple app users.

Oh and those super duper sale prices if you are a current owner? Yeah two big issues there. First, they ONLY apply IF you bought directly from Adobe for your current version. I don't know any one that has, we all get stuff on sales through stores or through association discounts at retailers like B&H. Second, those nifty discounts are ONLY for the first 12 months. They you get the full unlubed shaft.

As to LR5, it's up in the air if it will still be standalone or not. I saw this notice earlier today and had a chat with support asking just that, since the website has contradictory info on the subject. Direct from support, they don't know.

According to John Nack, LR5 will be available outside the Cloud. You'll even be able to buy it in a box. One ray of light in an otherwise dismal day.

I paid about $185 for my CS6 upgrade (shipped free!), so I think I was accurate enough to state "exactly". I agree that the comparison is not apples-to-apples: for the same price over the next year, we get access to new features and updates that we don't get to keep. And after that the price doubles for the same ephemeral product. The previous apple was MUCH tastier.

Well Rick, actually we do get to keep them as long as we continue to pay. It is a treadmill, no question about it; that said, for most of us, had we been able to remain on the old model we would continue to pay our $185~200 every 18 months - a voluntary treadmill. So when we get right down to it, in practical terms three things have changed: (i) we become renters, (ii) we pay more, and (iii) we get feature adds in real time instead of waiting 18 months for them. I'm ambivalent. The only downside I see apart from the eventual price increase is that the day I want to get off the treadmill (say because the incremental features just become less valuable than continuing to paying the rent), I shall have to revert to CS6 and lose the new features I had accumulated while renting. This is not good.

You're kidding right? The entire world economy is now completely dependent on ecommerce...internet ads? That's nothing...the US Congress is just now waking up to the fact this Internet thingie is big business...I think the Senate was to vote today on charging sales tax on all internet online sales...seems there were $225.5 billion in online sales in 2012, according to the U.S. Department of Commerce.

So, yeah, I think this whole Internet thingie is here to stay...

:~)

So how is Adobe to profit from internet sales tax with this subscription and cloud approach? PC sales have plummeted compared to mobile device sales which have increased substantially by comparison. How is Adobe products going to be used creating content (ads & web page design) on such small screens where ads often don't fit or are made difficult to see?

They sound like from that vague letter of theirs that they think their products are going to be used as social network tools or producing content that supports it. We're all going to be a bunch of happy online photo share and exchangers.

I still see from the tons of magazines at my bookstore and grocer the publishers must think the internet doesn't exist. They're still filled with volumes of ugly ads I can't stand looking at. How much of Adobe's market is comprised of servicing that media sector?

Yes I saw that page Rick, but like I posted...I JUST asked them...obviously someone/dept. doesn't know what they are talking about. I hope that would be be support, in this case. I would LOVE to just stay with CS6, I have ZERO reason to go to PS CC, and buy LR5 IF they add something good to it. I'm staying with 4 for now anyway, 5 beta is a joke.

Yes I saw that page Rick, but like I posted...I JUST asked them...obviously someone/dept. doesn't know what they are talking about. I hope that would be be support, in this case. I would LOVE to just stay with CS6, I have ZERO reason to go to PS CC, and buy LR5 IF they add something good to it. I'm staying with 4 for now anyway, 5 beta is a joke.

Just heard John Nack will be transferred to working in Adobe customer support.

So how is Adobe to profit from internet sales tax with this subscription and cloud approach?

You still don't get it...I mentioned the internet tax as proof that this whole internet thingie is the real deal with no "bubble" in sight, not to explain how Adobe was gonna make money. The whole ecommerce economic environment is huge and Adobe is just as interested in leveraging the internet as any company. You don't like the "cloud", don't do the cloud. You'll stuck at Photoshop CS6 for the foreseeable future (unless Adobe blinks or you buy a new computer that won't run it).

Yes I saw that page Rick, but like I posted...I JUST asked them...obviously someone/dept. doesn't know what they are talking about. I hope that would be be support, in this case. I would LOVE to just stay with CS6, I have ZERO reason to go to PS CC, and buy LR5 IF they add something good to it. I'm staying with 4 for now anyway, 5 beta is a joke.

I'd count on John Nack's page to be accurate. In my experience Adobe's Customer Service is usually not on the same page as the rest of the company -- and sometimes not even in the same book.

I'm trying to make sense of this from a corporation's perspective (no idea how much of Adobe's CS income comes from Corporations, really, but if anyone has leverage with Adobe, it must be them)...

If I'm a large, bloated corporation who is slow to upgrade my employees' OS versions due to all the legacy software I'm using that isn't compatible with the latest and greatest, and I'm paying Adobe $50/month per license (or whatever the corporate rate will end up being), and Adobe comes out with an update I can't upgrade to without millions of dollars of expense and months and months of effort, yet I'm paying for a subscription to a service I can't make use of, what is my reasoning for agreeing to this?

What do people feel about the viability of actual incremental feature support. There is a rhythm in software development and one cannot bang out quality features whenever you want. Not to mention testing efficiencies. So other than minor "JDI's" as Adobe calls them are we going to get major features more than every 18 months anyway?

I'm trying to make sense of this from a corporation's perspective (no idea how much of Adobe's CS income comes from Corporations, really, but if anyone has leverage with Adobe, it must be them)...

If I'm a large, bloated corporation who is slow to upgrade my employees' OS versions due to all the legacy software I'm using that isn't compatible with the latest and greatest, and I'm paying Adobe $50/month per license (or whatever the corporate rate will end up being), and Adobe comes out with an update I can't upgrade to without millions of dollars of expense and months and months of effort, yet I'm paying for a subscription to a service I can't make use of, what is my reasoning for agreeing to this?

Am I missing something?

Stephen, given how many corporations are still using Windows XP, I think you are onto something. But perhaps more of the companies focused on the graphic arts are on OSX 10.6 and above, where the cost of further updating is relatively low and PERHAPS less painful - on the whole.

I'm trying to make sense of this from a corporation's perspective (no idea how much of Adobe's CS income comes from Corporations, really, but if anyone has leverage with Adobe, it must be them)...

If I'm a large, bloated corporation who is slow to upgrade my employees' OS versions due to all the legacy software I'm using that isn't compatible with the latest and greatest, and I'm paying Adobe $50/month per license (or whatever the corporate rate will end up being), and Adobe comes out with an update I can't upgrade to without millions of dollars of expense and months and months of effort, yet I'm paying for a subscription to a service I can't make use of, what is my reasoning for agreeing to this?

Am I missing something?

Good point! I forgot about that angle.

Maybe Adobe will offer code tweaks on an individual basis for each corporations legacy software incompatibilities with incremental CC upgrades and existing hardware and download it from the Cloud account.

Oh and those super duper sale prices if you are a current owner? Yeah two big issues there. First, they ONLY apply IF you bought directly from Adobe for your current version. I don't know any one that has, we all get stuff on sales through stores or through association discounts at retailers like B&H.

Well then you need to widen your circle of acquaintances. I get mine via download from Adobe and I know a number of other people who do as well.

What direction for Adobe and its customers was that letter trying to communicate?

That the subscription model has been more successful than Adobe imagined. That the way dev used to work–giving birth after an 18 month gestation is problematic and doing both a perpetual and subscription version pair was unsustainable. That the way the whole industry in particular and society in general has moved to a whole new way of doing business and Adobe feels compelled to adopt and adopt their business model in a way it thinks will be good for the future. That Adobe doesn't want to piss off users, but they realize some people will not be happy about the cloud and they're very sorry, but their mind has been made up...no more perpetual and subscription licenses only.