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When I first read it I thought Oliva was saying Gardy should be in the Hall.....haha. As for Oliva, I don't think he makes the cut, but if you're a Twins fan it must be puzzling to see Puckett in and him out.

It helped that at the time of his election, we had yet to learn the sorid details of Puckett's personal life. Puckett had 2,304 hits and at 35 looked on pace to make 3,000 when his career suddenly ended. His last two seasons were the strike shortened 94&95; but he averaged 204 per 162 games in those seasons.

Oliva, by contrast, had injuries that slowly ended his career (similar to Mattingly) but was able to slightly prolong his career with the DH

I'm with DL from MN, Miñoso is the best candidate on the Golden Era ballot

Why would it be puzzling to see the better of the two players be the one in the Hall of Fame?

I don't see Puckett as clearly better. They both put the ball in play a lot, Puckett leading the league in hits four times and Oliva five, but Oliva won three batting titles to Puckett's one. Oliva also led in doubles four times, whereas Puckett's other black ink comes from one season of RBI (and two in total bases to Oliva's one). Oliva has almost twice the black ink as Puckett, 41 to 22, and leads in grey ink as well. Top five seasons of OPS+ with at least 500 PA's:

Elaborate--do you mean Expansion Era guys like Grich or guys like Trammell and Raines who are still on the BBWAA ballot?

Both. I hear more campaigning for the Oliva/Hodges types than for either of these modern groups (outside of BTF, of course).

The VC has pretty much picked the bones clean of every era prior to the 70's, and the vast majority of the best players not in the HOF are those currently on the ballot right now (even excluding the steroid snubs). IMO those are the players people should be putting the most time and effort into getting elected.

The VC has pretty much picked the bones clean of every era prior to the 70's, and the vast majority of the best players not in the HOF are those currently on the ballot right now (even excluding the steroid snubs). IMO those are the players people should be putting the most time and effort into getting elected.

I mostly agree with you. Most of my top 10 guys I support are from the seriously overlooked Expansion Era or are currently on the ballot (Grich, Hernandez, Dwight Evans, Whitaker, Trammell, Raines, McGriff) The only real exceptions are Minnie Miñoso from the Golden Era ballot & Joe Start and Harry Stovey from the Pre-Integration ballot who I each feel have pioneer credit that helps put them over my personal HOF line

Only about 100 games, but nearly 1,000 PAs: Oliva was used a lot as a pinch-hitter late in his career.

Kirby also has a huge narrative advantage. Maybe it shouldn't mean much (or at least as much as it does), but for the HoF it does matter.

1987, Game 6 1991, spending his whole career with the Twins, the sudden end to his career (not in his prime, but it sure looked like he had more left) - all that combines to form a push that Oliva just doesn't have.

Well put, Bitter Mouse. Not many careers ended so suddenly like Puckett's and he likely would've been afforded the opportunity by the Twins to make 3,000 hits had he continued playing at a decent level. What's interesting is whether or not he would've made the HOF had the SI article about his private life come out before he was voted in

Intruging table, Dan G. Nice to see Miñoso at the top of the hitters despite losing some time to integration and the unofficial quota. As the eighth post-integration black player and first black Latino, I think pioneer credit pushes him well over the top. It will be interesting to see who gets the votes since Santo (who got 15 of 16 possible votes) is no longer on the ballot

Pierce is #1 for the pitchers on the table, I'm not sure he's quite HOF but he definitely belongs on the ballot

I mostly agree with you. Most of my top 10 guys I support are from the seriously overlooked Expansion Era or are currently on the ballot (Grich, Hernandez, Dwight Evans, Whitaker, Trammell, Raines, McGriff)

Do you not support any of the Bagwell, Piazza, Biggio, Mussina, Schilling, Walker, Edgar, Kent group?* Or did you not include them cuz you think they still have a good shot at eventual BBWAA election? I think Biggio and Piazza will be for sure, probably Bagwell, and maybe Mussina and Schilling. I don't think Walker, Edgar, or Kent have much hope.

* I didn't include the steroid guys since they're a whole nother argument.

#19 - Good list. And it basically shows what I already suspected - unless you want to give Minoso the type of extra credit others have mentioned (and that's entirely reasonable), pretty much everyone with even borderline HOF credentials who played from the 60's and earlier is already enshrined. There's not a 55 WAR player in the entire bunch.

The last 40 years are getting shafted.

Edit: Oops, missed the "living" part of the disclaimer. Basic point still applies, though.

Do you not support any of the Bagwell, Piazza, Biggio, Mussina, Schilling, Walker, Edgar, Kent group?* Or did you not include them cuz you think they still have a good shot at eventual BBWAA election? I think Biggio and Piazza will be for sure, probably Bagwell, and maybe Mussina and Schilling. I don't think Walker, Edgar, or Kent have much hope.

I do support each of those players with the exception of Kent maybe but didn't include them since I feel many of them get a fair amount of attention and my focus is to write articles or make comments on guys who I feel are overlooked and have little chance of getting in and need a spotlight on their candidacies. Walker, Edgar, and Kent do have steep uphill roads though, while Raines has less steep a climb

12: I think WAR makes it quite clear the fat guy was not the better player. Oliva played a plus RF, Puckett a poor CF. Regardless of the similarity in offense, superior defense makes up any positional difference.

I think WAR makes it quite clear the fat guy was not the better player. Oliva played a plus RF, Puckett a poor CF. Regardless of the similarity in offense, superior defense makes up any positional difference

That's a reasonable opinion, but WAR sees Puckett's career overall as more valuable defensively than Oliva's. It's complicated by most of the dWAR difference being due to Oliva's years at DH. Basically, WAR doesn't see either one as being a good outfielder after age 32. But WAR would suggest that in their defensive primes, Puckett was better. From age 24 through 32, Puckett's at 3.3 dWAR and Oliva at -0.4. That's a good CF (and in his youth, outstanding) against a very good RF, and WAR does see the CF as having more value.

A lot depends on the definition of "better" and what one thinks of the DH "penalty" in WAR. But both were good at their positions for a while and then declined quickly; it's not like Oliva was obviously better overall.

3 pitchers are ahead of Pierce ( the 4th starter on the All Presidents team), but none have a compelling case.

Pierce is certainly behind Walter/Randy Johnson and Grover Cleveland Alexander but closer to Whitey Ford than you'd think. President Pierce's pWAR (Presidental WAR) wasn't nearly as high as Billy Pierce's pItcher WAR though

I think WAR makes it quite clear the fat guy was not the better player.

If you're limit your ballplayer evaluatin' to just prime, I guess you could make that argument. But Puckett had a career worth 50.9 WAR while Oliva put up 43.0 in a career of a similar length (all things considered), so WAR has, at least, some mixed feelings on the subject.

30: To clarify, I'm arguing who was the better player, not who had the better career. Obviously one can say Puckett had a better career as he stayed healthier, longer, despite having a short career, for a HOF anyway. But peak Oliva is just as good as peak Puckett.

30: To clarify, I'm arguing who was the better player, not who had the better career. Obviously one can say Puckett had a better career as he stayed healthier, longer, despite having a short career, for a HOF anyway. But peak Oliva is just as good as peak Puckett.

That's fair, but it was first brought in the context of why one is in the Hall and the other not, so the better career of Puckett is significant.

Both Oliva and Puckett came close to but were unable to pick up the MVP award

It'll be interesting who the HOF puts on the Golden Era panel as voters since Carew has said he's a voter and will lobby for Kaat & Oliva. Maybe Miñoso will have Reinsdorf to support him while maybe Hodges gets a Lasorda or a Koufax on his side

Tiant and Campaneris are hurt by having careers that could either be classified as Golden Era or Exp Era

David, it was really a series of knee injuries. Oliva initially had trouble with the knee in the mid-sixties, when he suffered torn ligaments. But the surgery on the knee seemed to do the trick, and he really din't have trouble until 1971, when he re-injured the knee while trying to make a diving catch. He suffered cartilage damage and also had bone chips that needed to be removed.

Oliva had surgery, but it didn't "take," so he had to undergo a subsequent surgery. By now, his knees were really in bad shape.

I would imagine that in today's game, with today's medical advancements, he would have had a better chance of recovering from that knee surgery. But he had such chronic problems with his knees that it's quite possible that his career still would have been shortened significantly.

Really a shame, because from 1964 to 1971, he was a Hall of Fame-caliber player, a better all-round player than either Carew or Killebrew.

Minnie Minoso is really deserving of a "Rich Lederer" style push this year but instead of convincing a hundred writers we only need to convince a handful of committee members. He's coming into this year with over 50% support from the last vote. I've tried to convince a couple White Sox blogs of taking up the cause but without any results so far.

Miñoso collected 9 of 16 votes on the last election, which left him just three votes shy of the required 75%. With Santo (who picked up 15 of 16) off the ballot, Miñoso could very well be the candidate who picks up the extra votes and gets in. If nothing else, the fact that he is almost 89-years old creates a sense of urgency around his candidacy.

As far as support for Miñoso, DL from MN, Chris Fluit, and myself each take part in the MMP elections (we are currently on 1956) and see Miñoso as an overdue candidate who should already be in Cooperstown. While some of the Sox blogs may not be jumping to research and support an old-time Sox player, Miñoso does have very vocal support from Sox owner Jerry Reinsdorf and the Chicago Tribune has been supportive towards his cause too. Hopefully, he will have Reinsdorf or a voter on the panel who pushes his worthy HOF case to the rest of the voters

That tilde in Miñoso bothers me. BITD sportswriters and typesetters in the US didn't know from tildes, and so he was always "Minoso"; but even his own autobiography spells the name without the tilde, so I wonder. It's an unusual spelling, not that I have any desire to tell the man how to spell his name :)

Minnie Minoso is really deserving of a "Rich Lederer" style push this year

I absolutely agree with this.

Normally, I’m all about promoting the best candidates for election to the Hall. I depart from this when it comes to very old, living candidates who seem likely to be elected eventually.

Minnie Minoso is going to be elected to the HOF sooner or later. He is. When you give him integration credit his numbers are in the company of the very best players that the VC could elect. Then consider the rest of his resume, as a pioneer and an ambassador for the game, and it’s crazy he’s not in already.

So GET MINOSO ELECTED WHILE HE STILL HAS BREATH to give a speech. What they did to Ron Santo was despicable. Let’s hope the Hall can avoid treating Minoso the same way.

Minnie Minoso is really deserving of a "Rich Lederer" style push this year but instead of convincing a hundred writers we only need to convince a handful of committee members. He's coming into this year with over 50% support from the last vote. I've tried to convince a couple White Sox blogs of taking up the cause but without any results so far.

I'm always surprised that this site has never become a breeding grown for several posters coming together and forming a Rich Lerderer type campaign for Miñoso, or say Grich, or someone like Whitaker, Dw Evans, or Simmons. No complaints just it surprises me we don't see that here

So GET MINOSO ELECTED WHILE HE STILL HAS BREATH to give a speech. What they did to Ron Santo was despicable. Let’s hope the Hall can avoid treating Minoso the same way.

So, so true. Really I'm not a caps and bold type person but I agree with this WHOLEHEARTEDLY. I still have yet to watch Santo's widows induction speech because it is meaningless to me to see him not be there to deliver it. I certainly hope Miñoso gets the chance, my guess is he'll steal the show, even if most fans of say Randy Johnson, Biggio, and Pedro (who I think will be elected next year) won't have an idea of who he is