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Larmuseau et al - Increasing phylogenetic resolution still informative for Y-chromosomal studies on West-European populationsNow, a set of recently published and newly developed Y-SNPs were optimized to characterize all Flemish Y-chromosomes belonging to haplogroups G, R1b and T. Based on this set, it was possible for the first time to observe a significant East-West gradient in the frequency of certain R1b Y-chromosomal lineages in addition to a previously announced North-South gradient."

It looks like they probably tested Z series SNPs and also L21. They seem to confirm not only the previously observed north=U106/south=U152 in Flanders, but also an East-West split. This could be a big deal, especially if it relates to a geographical tendency for L21 (west?) especially since P312(xU152) was second to U106 in R1b SNP frequency in their prior papers.

Berger et al - Tracking the Iceman’s scent by high resolution mapping of Y haplogroup G in Tyrol (Austria)A population sample comprising 3,713 specimens from men living in Tyrol was genotyped for 19 Y-SNPs by single-nucleotide primer extension. This set included the G2a defining marker P15. Preliminary results indicated that app. 11% of the Y chromosomes belonged to G2a. The spatial distribution of this Hg featured unexpectedly high densities within or near the Ötztal Alps. L91 and additional SNPs such as L32, L487, and L645 are increasing the resolution within G2a andwill refine this pattern.

[Rocca Comment] They will probably get down to the very lowest levels of G2a, but probably not far down with R1b

Mielnik et al - The history of Slavs in the light of Y chromosome and mtDNA variabilityY chromosome diversity was analyzed using a panel of 11 SNP polymorphisms (including M458 – so called “Western Slavic marker”) and 17 Y-STRs on 154 DNA samples from Ukrainians. These results were compared to previously published data from Slavic and non-Slavic populations...The overall picture of Y chromosome and mtDNA diversity in Central Europe corresponds well with origin and later expansion of Corded Ware European culture. Thus, we suggest that genetic continuity existed in Central Europe between Bronze Age and Middle Ages when the earliest Slavic tribes were described.

[Rocca Comment] An STR study that will likely not be of much value

Coia et al - Y chromosome variation in geographically and linguistically isolated populations from oriental AlpsIn this study, we have investigated the genetic structure of thirteen populations (for a total of 533 individuals) from the Eastern Italian Alps. These include six linguistically isolated groups - five German-speaking communities (among which Cimbrians from Luserna and Giazza, and the communities from Sappada, Sauris and Timau) and one Ladin-speaking group from Trentino. All samples were typed for 17 microsatellites (Y-filer profile) and 57 Single Nucleotide Polymorphisms in order to get an exhaustive overview of their Y chromosome variation and haplogroups composition.

[Rocca Comment] 57 SNPs is probably enough to get down to the U152/L21 level

[Rocca Comment] An STR study that will likely not be of much value. Unfortunate because this is where U152 seems to start to drop off and P312* takes off.

Karimnia et al - Forensic science applied on prehistoric remains - a nine fold burial of the 4th millennium BC raised questions about kinship, locality, and circumstances of deathMitochondrial haplotypes and haplogroups were identified by sequencing of the hypervariable segments I and II of the control region and by analyzing 22 diagnostic coding region single nucleotide polymorphisms.

[Rocca Comment] Unfortunately no Y-DNA, just mtDNA. Hopefully some cooler heads will put the brakes on this mtDNA-only testing soon in light of recent advances in ancient DNA testing that will probably yield Y-DNA results.

It seems they expanded the sample size from 393 to 533 and the April abstract only makes mention of the 17 STRs and not the 57 SNPs. Also, the co-author list is different. So, I'm assuming this is an incremental study to the one from April.

I'm looking forward to hearing more about the Flemish study, obviously L21 wasn't tested in previous studies and there was an awful lot of P312xU152, so it should be interesting. It would also help us fill in some more of gaps regarding continental L21 distribution.

In the Belgian and Noord-Brabant DNA-project they indeed tested the R1b-P312 SNP's for M529 (equivalent for L21?).37% of the P312*(x U152, SRY2627) were found to be R1b-M529+ (77/208).I asked for more information, but the project administration doesn't respond. They probably wait for the publication.

I also would like to mention that one person (0,1%) in the Belgian province of Limburg was found to be Hg A-M91.

Jean-Pierre.

Thanks for updated stats, the P312 (x U152, M529, SRY2627) still makes up a big chunk I'm assuming nothing like Z196 or DF27 were tested. It will be interesting to see what exactly the East <-> West gradient is, I'm assuming it might be to do with frequency of L21 been higher in west.

It's nice to finally see a figure for L21 out of that project. Eight percent is fairly substantial, and not too far behind U152 there. If I recall correctly, nearby in northeastern France, L21 rises to 10 percent and then increases steadily as one moves west.

I also would like to mention that one person (0,1%) in the Belgian province of Limburg was found to be Hg A-M91.

Jean-Pierre.

Jean-Pierre, that's great to hear as it was not originally tested and Larmuseau has not included L21 in any of his published studies. Hopefully this one will. Since you have access to the data, do you see any possible east-west cline based on L21 or U106 subclades?

I don't have access to the data. On 27 july there was a message on the Belgian and Noord-Brabant DNA-forum from prof. R. Decorte that Manfred Kayser in Rotterdam had tested more underlying SNP's, especialy under R1b, and that the results would be reported in september. He mentioned the detection of 37% M529 within P312*, and also underlying SNP's for the 7 Hg T-M70 results. No other SNP's were mentioned in that message, but I hope that R-L2 was also tested.My questions to the administrators have not been answered.

I also would like to mention that one person (0,1%) in the Belgian province of Limburg was found to be Hg A-M91.

Jean-Pierre.

So that is percentages of the entire tested Y population? That is very interesting. It looks (especially if further resolution of P312* was done) that the non-U106 R1b element is very eveny split up in Belgium. I didnt expect that. I actually thought U152 would be dominant. The very low SRY2627 is not something I really expected too. I makes me wonder if there is something very interesting about Belgian P312*. Is it true P312* or DF27 or a mix?

So that is percentages of the entire tested Y population? That is very interesting. It looks (especially if further resolution of P312* was done) that the non-U106 R1b element is very eveny split up in Belgium. I didnt expect that. I actually thought U152 would be dominant. The very low SRY2627 is not something I really expected too. I makes me wonder if there is something very interesting about Belgian P312*. Is it true P312* or DF27 or a mix?

Is this a Flemish sample or all Belgium?

Most samples come from the Brabant region. The U152 result is higher in those with French surnames (~16%) and lower in Flemish surnames. The opposite is seen with U106 and even more drastically.

I have a feeling Belgian P312* will wind up looking more like British P312* where some are DF27 but some are also of the boutique variety (L238, DF19, true P312**etc.).

I find the fact that L21 is nearly one in ten of Brabant men quite surprising. IF U106 is a late intrusion that has dimished the percentages of the rest then that is even more surprising as it indicates it may have once been significantly higher. It kind of shows to me that U152 diminishes from its Alpine peak in both a westerly and a northerly direction while L21 does the opposite.

I have a hunch that L21 in Belgium may have originally have followed this pattern with L21 higher in the north and U152 higher in the south. However, if that is true then L21 would have been in the zone where it would have been more diminished by U106 than U152 would have been. In the isles U106 seems to be the main diminisher of L21 and I have a strong suspicion the same is true on the continent. Perhaps L21 once was a big player on the seaways all the way to Scandinavia. U152 as a more dominant inland clade in west-central Europe may have been less effected by U106's biggest zone of impact.

Of course frequency and origin are different things. Its hard to say if L21 just had a NW trajectory from the more easterly parts of its range and pooled in NW France and the isles or if it originated in the west and moved up the rivers and coast heading eastward. The peak of L21X DF13 on the continent seems to suggest L21 spread from Atlantic France. They simply cant be derived from DF13 so that seems the logical conclusion. The big expansion of L21 seems to have been through DF13 which is also present in the L21XDF13 area and seems to totally dominate the rest of its continental range. So, it looks to me that L21 originated in Atlantic France with the variance dating suggesting a beaker origin.

L21* clearly originated in a a non-DF27 P312* lineage. So that to me is the next big question. Where is there a concenration of these lineages?

The number for L21 is 7.9%. There is a definate east to west cline with French speaking on the West having higher L21 and Flemish speakers on the east having lower L21 and higher U152 and U106.I understand the team is working on the SNPs downstream of L21, U152 and U106. Since they are using 1000 Genome data to build their tree this should be quiet detailed results.This should yield additional interesting insights into L21 when it is eventually published.

Increasing phylogenetic resolution still informative for Y-chromosomal studies on West-European populationsLarmuseau MH1,2,3,*, Vanderheyden N1, Van Oven M4, Kayser M4, Decorte R5,21UZ Leuven, Laboratory of Forensic Genetics and Molecular Archaeology, Leuven, Belgium2KU Leuven, Department of Imaging & Pathology, Forensic Medicine, Leuven, Belgium3KU Leuven, Department of Biology, Laboratory of Biodiversity and Evolutionary Genomics, Leuven, Belgium 4Department of Forensic Molecular Biology, Erasmus MC, University Medical Center Rotterdam, Rotterdam, Netherlands5Katholieke Universiteit Leuven; Laboratory of Forensic Genetics and Molecular Archaeology, Leuven, BelgiumAn increasing number of Y-chromosomal SNPs are becoming available besides the set of SNPs which were used to achieve the latest published phylogenetic tree of the human Y chromosome by the Y Chromosome Consortium (YCC) in 2008. Many Y-chromosomal lineages which are defined in this tree were mostly distributed in (Western) Europe due to the fact that most research projects are focusing on this area. Therefore the question arises if newly discovered polymorphisms on the Y-chromosome will still be interesting for Western Europeans on a population genetic level.To answer this research question, the West-European region of Flanders (Belgium) was selected as study area since its Y-chromosomal variation and distribution are well known in detail. In this region, more than 1000 Y chromosomes which were genotyped at the highest resolution of the YCC-tree were coupled to the in-depth genealogical data of the autochthonous DNA donors. Based on these data the temporal changes of the population genetic pattern within Flanders are well studied for the last centuries, and the effects of several past gene flow events were identified.Now, a set of recently published and newly developed Y-SNPs were optimized to characterize all Flemish Y-chromosomes belonging to haplogroups G, R1b and T. Based on this set, it was possible for the first time to observe a significant East-West gradient in the frequency of certain R1b Y-chromosomal lineages in addition to a previously announced North-South gradient. In this talk we will discuss therefore the informative value of recently discovered Y-SNPs for population genetic studies within Western Europe. The results suggest that an update of the Y-chromosomal tree based on new polymorphisms will give the opportunity to study population genetic patterns in more detail, even in an already well-studied region such as Western Europe.

The number for L21 is 7.9%. There is a definate east to west cline with French speaking on the West having higher L21 and Flemish speakers on the east having lower L21 and higher U152 and U106.I understand the team is working on the SNPs downstream of L21, U152 and U106. Since they are using 1000 Genome data to build their tree this should be quiet detailed results.This should yield additional interesting insights into L21 when it is eventually published.

Increasing phylogenetic resolution still informative for Y-chromosomal studies on West-European populationsLarmuseau MH1,2,3,*, Vanderheyden N1, Van Oven M4, Kayser M4, Decorte R5,21UZ Leuven, Laboratory of Forensic Genetics and Molecular Archaeology, Leuven, Belgium2KU Leuven, Department of Imaging & Pathology, Forensic Medicine, Leuven, Belgium3KU Leuven, Department of Biology, Laboratory of Biodiversity and Evolutionary Genomics, Leuven, Belgium 4Department of Forensic Molecular Biology, Erasmus MC, University Medical Center Rotterdam, Rotterdam, Netherlands5Katholieke Universiteit Leuven; Laboratory of Forensic Genetics and Molecular Archaeology, Leuven, BelgiumAn increasing number of Y-chromosomal SNPs are becoming available besides the set of SNPs which were used to achieve the latest published phylogenetic tree of the human Y chromosome by the Y Chromosome Consortium (YCC) in 2008. Many Y-chromosomal lineages which are defined in this tree were mostly distributed in (Western) Europe due to the fact that most research projects are focusing on this area. Therefore the question arises if newly discovered polymorphisms on the Y-chromosome will still be interesting for Western Europeans on a population genetic level.To answer this research question, the West-European region of Flanders (Belgium) was selected as study area since its Y-chromosomal variation and distribution are well known in detail. In this region, more than 1000 Y chromosomes which were genotyped at the highest resolution of the YCC-tree were coupled to the in-depth genealogical data of the autochthonous DNA donors. Based on these data the temporal changes of the population genetic pattern within Flanders are well studied for the last centuries, and the effects of several past gene flow events were identified.Now, a set of recently published and newly developed Y-SNPs were optimized to characterize all Flemish Y-chromosomes belonging to haplogroups G, R1b and T. Based on this set, it was possible for the first time to observe a significant East-West gradient in the frequency of certain R1b Y-chromosomal lineages in addition to a previously announced North-South gradient. In this talk we will discuss therefore the informative value of recently discovered Y-SNPs for population genetic studies within Western Europe. The results suggest that an update of the Y-chromosomal tree based on new polymorphisms will give the opportunity to study population genetic patterns in more detail, even in an already well-studied region such as Western Europe.

Is this paper available. What are the details of the clines in L21 in Belgium?

The number for L21 is 7.9%. There is a definate east to west cline with French speaking on the West having higher L21 and Flemish speakers on the east having lower L21 and higher U152 and U106.I understand the team is working on the SNPs downstream of L21, U152 and U106. Since they are using 1000 Genome data to build their tree this should be quiet detailed results.This should yield additional interesting insights into L21 when it is eventually published.

Increasing phylogenetic resolution still informative for Y-chromosomal studies on West-European populationsLarmuseau MH1,2,3,*, Vanderheyden N1, Van Oven M4, Kayser M4, Decorte R5,21UZ Leuven, Laboratory of Forensic Genetics and Molecular Archaeology, Leuven, Belgium2KU Leuven, Department of Imaging & Pathology, Forensic Medicine, Leuven, Belgium3KU Leuven, Department of Biology, Laboratory of Biodiversity and Evolutionary Genomics, Leuven, Belgium 4Department of Forensic Molecular Biology, Erasmus MC, University Medical Center Rotterdam, Rotterdam, Netherlands5Katholieke Universiteit Leuven; Laboratory of Forensic Genetics and Molecular Archaeology, Leuven, BelgiumAn increasing number of Y-chromosomal SNPs are becoming available besides the set of SNPs which were used to achieve the latest published phylogenetic tree of the human Y chromosome by the Y Chromosome Consortium (YCC) in 2008. Many Y-chromosomal lineages which are defined in this tree were mostly distributed in (Western) Europe due to the fact that most research projects are focusing on this area. Therefore the question arises if newly discovered polymorphisms on the Y-chromosome will still be interesting for Western Europeans on a population genetic level.To answer this research question, the West-European region of Flanders (Belgium) was selected as study area since its Y-chromosomal variation and distribution are well known in detail. In this region, more than 1000 Y chromosomes which were genotyped at the highest resolution of the YCC-tree were coupled to the in-depth genealogical data of the autochthonous DNA donors. Based on these data the temporal changes of the population genetic pattern within Flanders are well studied for the last centuries, and the effects of several past gene flow events were identified.Now, a set of recently published and newly developed Y-SNPs were optimized to characterize all Flemish Y-chromosomes belonging to haplogroups G, R1b and T. Based on this set, it was possible for the first time to observe a significant East-West gradient in the frequency of certain R1b Y-chromosomal lineages in addition to a previously announced North-South gradient. In this talk we will discuss therefore the informative value of recently discovered Y-SNPs for population genetic studies within Western Europe. The results suggest that an update of the Y-chromosomal tree based on new polymorphisms will give the opportunity to study population genetic patterns in more detail, even in an already well-studied region such as Western Europe.

Is this paper available. What are the details of the clines in L21 in Belgium?

Alan, Here is the reference to the paper. I don't have access to the database. I understand the detailed work on downstream SNPs is ongoing and not date is available for publication.

It occurred to me that L21, U152 and U106 map quiet well with the three kingdoms of the Holy Roman Empire ruled by Charles the Bald, Lothair and Louis the German following the death of Charlemagne.Lothairs territory was a narrow strip from Brabant to the Alps. Of course L21, U152 and U106 were born much earlier. It is also interesting to note that Brabant had a large influx of Spanish in the 16th C and was known as the Spanish Netherlands.It will be interesting to see if the study picks up traces of this period.

I understand the scope of the study is Brabant, not Belgium. Here is an extract.

"Now, a set of recently published and newly developed Y-SNPs were optimized to characterize all Flemish Y-chromosomes belonging to haplogroups G, R1b and T. Based on this set, it was possible for the first time to observe a significant East-West gradient in the frequency of certain R1b Y-chromosomal lineages in addition to a previously announced North-South gradient. "