you are not abstaining, you are not calculating an effect in cpitalist demand terms from your actions as an ndividual consumer. IN fact, just stop thinking about social change as something which comes via consumption.

Vegans are creating cultural change, you are part of a social movement which is fundamentally questioning animals role in society, food culture and all that obvious stuff. NOTHING can be achieveved as indiividual consumerist choices, so think of yourself as a part of a larger social movement and you can see how world has been changed before by similar movements.

We are doing brilliantly well - only against unrelistic expectations we fare badly - but compared to many other social justice single issues animal issues are progressing well.

And what exactly does that involve? You are upset at the way the world works, but you haven't put forth a realistic plan to solve the issues. And always keep in mind the Serenity Prayer:"God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,Courage to change the things I can,And wisdom to know the difference."

Hey, how many vegans have never hit that stage where they wonder about the point of it all? I certainly have.

I accept a lot of your points about the impact of you not eating animal products. Real change is going to happen when there are lot more vegans in the industrialised world. That means some of us have to do it as the first <.5% and lead the way.

Sometimes I think it has some similarities with other social movements. At some point in the 1950s a black man walked into a 'whites only' cafe in America and took a seat. he got attacked, and when the police arrived they arrested him. For years openly gay people in the west had the same problem.

I have massive respect for those first people who stood up and were counted, when they were in small numbers and faced big opposition. Look how much those two issues have developed since then. In many ways we're part of this.

So aside from not eating animals and theior products, it helps to be a 'good vegan'. Be healthy, be fit, be strong. Do a talk at your local school and get a 'vegan' tattoo on the best looking bit of your body. Know the basics so you can explain it to people. Make people damn good food. Look smug when you acheive a Pb. help that revolution along. Sure, it's going to be slow, but we do what we can.

You can see my training log if you're really bored: [url]www.veganfitness.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=16086&start=360[/url]

And what exactly does that involve? You are upset at the way the world works, but you haven't put forth a realistic plan to solve the issues. And always keep in mind the Serenity Prayer:"God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,Courage to change the things I can,And wisdom to know the difference."

Please watch it; it's short and I think it will change your perspective.

This is the plan:

1) Change your thinking. That is the most important thing anyone can do. 2) Tell everyone. EVERYONE. People may not accept veganism, but I bet you can explain a resource-based economy to them quite easily. (Resource-based = no factory farms, by the way.)

As individuals, that's all we can do. The thing that really angers me is that people don't seem to care about anything--especially themselves.

Also, one other thing--I tire of the vegan guilt trips people lay on omnivores. It doesn't work. The thing is: we're mammals. We consume. We have to accept that and move on. The best we can really strive for is the least impact possible. That means promoting the resource-based economy, which, on a large scale, is far more important than abstaining from meat, as it will bring about real change for the animals.

I apologize for the fragmented posts, but this stuff doesn't just come in neat packages.

I have some questions for you.

1) Do you use paper? Do you read papers, send greeting cards, use wrapping paper, read magazines, work in an office...?

Think about the old growth trees that the timber industry clear cut to get paper, or to plant tree farms to harvest it. Do you know what a tree is? It's a little ecosystem with many animals, plants, etc. on, in, and around it. Trees and plants are literally the sustainers of life on earth right behind water and the sun.

I ask you--what are you doing to stop the murder of the trees and all things associated with them?

This goes double for all the wood in your life--furniture, houses, decks, etc.

2) Do you use plastic? Styrofoam? Do you drive a car? What about metals?

Extracting fossil fuels from the earth does so much damage that it's hard to fathom. And that's before BP murders part of the Gulf of Mexico.

Blowing up mountains for your soda cans and aluminum foil, or the cell phones that you upgrade and throw out, or the TV you watch, or the computer that you're on now...

Those things all do TREMENDOUS damage to the earth, yet you are not abstaining from them, nor are you alerting people about the incredible destructiveness of the corporations that make them. For details on this, please see here: http://youtu.be/xAKr9YqPowQ

3) Do you have any idea how catastrophically one human hurts the world? Do you have children? Why do you not rally against them?

Those three points are just the tip of the iceberg, and every step in all of them involves displacing, exploiting, and murdering humans and animals. All of it. Every scintilla of civilization.

What are you doing to stop it?

Not eating animals is not the answer. Indigenous peoples ate animals, and were easily the most efficient people in history with the smallest carbon footprint.

Vegans have too narrow a focus. You need to broaden your perspective and realize that the entire system in place right now is rotten to the core. Factory farming, vivisection, etc. are all symptoms of this problem. By simply abstaining from animals, you may as well try to kick water uphill.

The thing most vegans fail to realize (see my point on indigenous people) is that we are mammals. We consume. Use toilet paper instead of leaves? Heat your house? Drive your car? Of course. Life today is not possible without these things. Our responsibility is to protect the landbase and the environment from which we take what we need. All of our diets--omni, veg, or vegan--are all unsustainable as they stand. They all murder and torture animals. As vegans, we may be doing less harm, but we still have oceans of blood on our hands.

I ask one more time, as I've yet to get a satisfactory answer: what are you going to do about it? What's happening today can only be described as ecocide. If it doesn't stop soon, there won't be any animals left not to eat.

Chris Vaughn wrote:Not eating animals is not the answer. Indigenous peoples ate animals, and were easily the most efficient people in history with the smallest carbon footprint.

Vegans have too narrow a focus. You need to broaden your perspective and realize that the entire system in place right now is rotten to the core.

People are not just vegans, only focusing on animal rights, but can reflect over, and do, lots of other things. One of the answers is to not use animals.

Indigenous people is not something to strive after simply because I don't believe that they has as high efficiency/footprint as you claim. And even if they did, them eating animals was not the cause of it.

kallefs wrote:People are not just vegans, only focusing on animal rights, but can reflect over, and do, lots of other things. One of the answers is to not use animals.

Indigenous people is not something to strive after simply because I don't believe that they has as high efficiency/footprint as you claim. And even if they did, them eating animals was not the cause of it.

Not using animals is pacifism, not activism. STOPPING the pain, suffering, and torture is the answer. Once again, refer back to my point about government subsidies. It's happening whether or not you use animals. The only way to stop it is to directly intervene, not passively stand by.

Indigenous people inhabited (and still do inhabit) this planet for thousands of years with little impact. We've been industrialized for a little over two hundred years, and it took only about 150 years to begin factory farming animals. It took even less to begin this war-like, throw away society.

So you tell me--thousands of years (including eating animals, which I never claimed was the reason for their small footprint) with the indigenous people, or a couple thousand leading up to a couple hundred with industrialization that has put us on the brink of ecocide?

While Chris has a fairly provocative approach, I think some of y'all seem to be missing the main point....

From what I have read, Chris isn't saying that he is planning to stop being vegan or that we should. What he is saying - and that I fully agree with - is that the majority of the problems that animals and our world are facing *are not* and *will not* be solved just by folks going vegan. That's just one piece of a bigger puzzle and just one step for folks to take. Good points to ponder and good reasons to keep challenging ourselves!

While I also generally advocate against humans making babies, the main issue is our levels of consumption, ie: the average person living a "western" lifestyle consumes far more than the average person in most countries. This is coming from a parent of 3 vegan & fairly eco-conscious kids, who now has a vasectomy too. I love my kids and I think all of us benefit from having kids in our lives. That said, if I could go back in time to do so I would get a vasectomy before I had kids & adopted, co-parented, etc instead.

I think, Chris, that maybe you assume that all vegans think that simply going vegan is the sole solution to all that ails the planet. This is not so. Being vegan is simply one small but important part of a MUCH bigger solution. I cannot even begin to imagine all the change that would be necessary to bring about harmony with our environment and the co-inhabitors of the earth, but I have a few ideas and I work towards those.

You make valid points, but do not discount the effect of growing numbers of vegans in society, especially since a large number of them are also environmentally conscious and active in many areas of reform. Change will not happen overnight. It might even be too little, too late. But as more and more become vegan, the IDEA of veganism and eliminating factory farms and the huge monocrop agriculture industry behind feeding those farm animals will also gain acceptance. Yes, I know that's only one small part of the whole problem. But it's still something that needs to be dealt with. I know that the same monocrop mass agriculture that feeds us is also disastrous. It's something I keep in mind when I shop for my food. Consumerism is a problem as well. I do what I can, as do many. Reduce, reuse, recycle.

While I agree that simply going vegan isn't enough, it's not accurate to say it's a waste of time. That's a defeatist attitude and will only serve to depress you even further and foster a feeling of futility. Make change how you can, encourage others to do the same. If all I can do is piss on a forest fire, I'll keep on pissing on it until I think of something else to do. I LOVE the Serenity Prayer. Read that again. Focus on what you CAN change and go change it. Your actions are but a small part. But still important, and still worthwhile.