well, thats way over my head! In terms of quantity...how do you cuantify chi? thats maybe one of the main reasosn why science is so reluctant to accept it existance. It imposible to measure it, put it under a microscope or dicect it. So I guess this question can only be answered by an experienced master or internal arts or chinese medicine. Why dont you foward your question to one of the yang family masters> theis answer, if posted here, would be an invaluable source of knowledge!

Just to be more clear in my conveyance, perhaps I gave the wrong impression. I am not seeking a method of quantifying Qi. I am moreover interested in the efficient use of energy, and how it works in Taijiquan.

Efficient Energy Management...

<<That's maybe one of the main reasosn why science is so reluctant to accept it existance.>>RVC

It has been method in China for a long time, as I am sure you are aware...but I realize it is a new concept in the Western world.However, it IS becoming more and more practiced in the form of accupuncture in medicine...It is becoming more accepted and employed...and discussed. But I fully understand what you imply.

<<It imposible to measure it, put it under a microscope or dicect it.>>

I don't know about microscopes...but there is a sensory quantum device which measures the pathways in the body, precisely as described by the Chinese millenia ago.

<<So I guess this question can only be answered by an experienced master or internal arts or chinese medicine.>>RVC

Yes, I believe these would be efficient sources for research of this subject, thanks for pointing in the right direction.

Thanks for showing an interest in my endeavors to understand "internal" ideas more fully.

I am in fact quite glad you prompted a more detailled explanation...

It has provided me an opportunity to rethink my order of logic and procedure.

Perhaps I should begin by attempting to confirm and define some of the more basic, fundamental ideologies before striking out beyond.

I find there are two separate issues...

1)TAI CHI WITH AN OPPONENT==========================

Interaction with an opponents energy.Using the opponents energy against him.Returning an opponents energy.

(This is what I have gleaned of TaiChi with an opponent. I am under the impression, perhaps wrongly, that we are not using our own energy...but moreover manipulating our opponents energy in different manners (redirection/dissipation).

But I have also heard terms such as storing Qi, accumulating Gong, releasing Jin etc...

2)WITHOUT AN OPPONENT, INDEPENDANTLY==================================== GAINING, STORING AND RELEASING ENERGY IN TAICHI, WITHOUT AN OPPONENT...INDEPENDANTLY.

Q:Gong...accumulation of skill???Q:Gong...accumulation of Qi???Q:Gong...accumulation of both skill and Qi???

Q:Gaining Qi??? Without an opponent???Q:Storing Qi???Q:Releasing Jin(processed Qi) without an opponent(Form practice using Fa-jin) techniques).

***Gaining and storing Qi, and releasing Jin independantly from an opponent???

I think it might be a good idea to try to explore and confirm these two issues...

Can anyone answer some of these questions?Shed some light, add some depth...Any comments?

Well, I only have a moment, but I'll take at whack at step one with the idea of expanding it, rather than answering the question directly, which I will glady try when I have more sufficient time.When I trained at my former training location, we trained push hands and wrestling with the idea that we would use our opponents strength against him, not our own. But in sparring it was usually up to us to provide the necessary energy for the strike. Now, that was never to say that if you were wrestling and could land a good, solid punch on him you couldn't, it was more along the lines of letting him strike first, accepting his incoming energy, then redirecting it back into him in the form of a strike.Can I use my own energy in a fight? Unequivacobly yes!The best defense is sometimes a withering, incapacitating, immediate offense. If you can tumble forward a few feet, come to your feet and slip a good solid punch or kick in through his gates and doors, you go. But this is not wrestling it's sparring. It's funny to me how many people don't appreciate the difference between these concepts.If you are not physically or only very lightly touching your opponent you are in "sparring" mode, long or medium throw range, here you use mostly your own energy for striking.If you are physically grappling your opponent you're wrestling, short throw range, and here you will mostly use his energy against him.Push hands is by definition almost always wrestling, very simple single armed push hands can also be sparring but aren't usually used that way for training. So most of the "martial" concepts discussed in TCC are wrestling concepts, the energetic and direct physical exchange of energies between two closely linked bodies. But why do we train for punches, kicks, throws, leaps, if part of TCC isn't to use some of our OWN energy during the exchange?How do you punch someone when you are sparring and not use your own energy? You're not in contact with the opponent, so how do you do this? So before we can have a discussion on the idea of "combat", we must really be specific about which type of combat we are discussing.

I knew I wasn't losing my mind, well, much more of it anyway.I went looking for the thread I had just made a rather lengthy posting on yesterday, and it was gone!But I poked around a bit and there it was.Yes, this is a much more appropriate location for this thread.

You wrote,<<How do you punch someone when you are sparring and not use your own energy? You're not in contact with the opponent, so how do you do this? So before we can have a discussion on the idea of "combat", we must really be specific about which type of combat we are discussing.>> Wushuer

Actually...I was trying to convey the opposite end of that spectrum. Which is why I transferred the thread to theory...

You said: ...before we can have a discussion on the idea of "combat", we must really be specific about which type of combat we are discussing.

I totally agree, so I'm wondering if you could define the terms you're using so that I'm on the same page.

Particularly, what do you mean by wrestling, and sparring?

You said: Push hands is by definition almost always wrestling

Never having wrestled, I don't understand it well enough to know what you mean--but when I've watched the sport, it looks like a lot of strength opposing strength (li), combined with a kind of listening energy waiting for the right moment to flip or pin your opponent.

I would say that except for the listening and understanding energy, it doesn't sound like push hands (as I am learning it) at all. That's why I'm trying to find out what you mean, since in my head, wrestling and grappling are very tied to external, hard, muscular force-using styles.

Sparring I think of as more free-style than push hands. Fighting without the intent to harm or maim. Not necessarily being in direct contact with the opponent at all times, but trying to "stick" to them/ with them anyway.

The inclinations in responses seem to be leaning towards Push Hands applications...

Whereas I am attemting to distinguish details of energy management techniques in Taijiquan WITHOUT a sparring partner...in form practice.

Again, I am possibly confounding Taijiquan with Qigong...

But in Taiji literature I have heard several references to storing Qi at the end of the form...which leads me to believe gaining and storing raw energy (Qi) is an integral aspect of form practice....Gaining and storing energy...In Taijiquan.

Kalomondin,I've been away a few days, just got back.Glad to help.First, understand that my knowledge of TCC theory and application is from the Wu family, not the Yang family. Even though the Wu family got their stuff from the Yang family, it has taken a bit of it's own path in the last 100 years or so.Wu style has a heavy emphasis on "wrestling", which was defined for me as any type of "fighting" in which the opponents are in actual physical contact. Push hands was "wrestling" because you were in close physical contact with your opponent. It was, and still is, called push hands (tuishou) but it was "defined", at least to me, as a wrestling type scenario."Sparring" was considered the type of combat where you are not actually, or only very lightly, in contact with your opponent. The kind of fight where you were jabbing or kicking at each other, but not utilizing Na. Maybe that would be how I would describe the difference, though not exact, it would be a good place to start.If you're using "Na" or controlling energy against your opponent, you're wrestling. If you're not, then you're sparring.A very, very elementary definition, but one that has enough of the original idea to help us out with what I meant.Heck, define them any way you'd like. Call them "pushing and shoving" or "punching and kicking", just so long as we recognize that there are different types of combat.Another good way might be, "how close are we?". Is this a long, medium or short throw range combat? Long throw, you're probably "sparring" where I come from. Medium can go either way. Short throw range is almost always going to be "wrestling". Hands on, or hands off? That might work too. Do you see the difference?Are you "grappling", "sticking", "adhering"? If so, you're most likely "wrestling". If you're just using listening energy to sense where he's going to go but aren't touching him, you're sparring.None of these were absolutes. You can be "sparring" one second and "wrestling" the next with no break in your flow or your principals of combat. However we tended to keep the two things distinct from each other for training purposes.I just like to know which one I'm talking about when discussing "combat" as the techniques are different.Hope that helps.