Sunday, May 14, 2017

“After doing it about the third time, I asked [Aviles] what his problem was, was it hearing or learning?” joked Valentine. “And afterwards it was like this major – and I said it with a loud voice, I might have even used an expletive or two to get my point across – but afterwards, three or four of the guys came in and said how Mike was in his locker and his head was down and he felt so bad and I had to apologize because I hurt his feelings and embarrassed him. I thought that was rather interesting. … I absolutely apologized, but I didn’t totally get it.”

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So let me understand the premise of the article. David Ortiz makes a bunch of classless, unnecessary (although I guess you have to slam someone to help sell your book even if you happen to already be very wealthy) remarks about Booby Valentine, Valentine responds politely without any criticism in return, and Valentine's response is then described as "while sounding reasonable on the surface....arrogant, narcissistic, unapologetic, obtuse."

So here we have another media member who dislikes Valentine and thus has a prearranged agenda writing a story which takes Ortiz's slurs and uses them to take yet another swipe at Valentine.

Nah. You are just failing to own and recognize your biases and subject position--just like Valentine is, assuming that he actually said, "I totally didn't get it." #3 sums things up pretty well.

Yeah, me and Valentine. But not Ortiz, of course. His remarks typify the class persona he showed when he screamed at official scorers when they had the temerity to call an error. Perhaps your biases are the ones that are showing.

I do not remember learning that the backpedaling shortstop never says anything and that the OF is the only player in that situation that will say "I got it."

I don't either.

If the OF hears the IF calling for it, that might tell him that his own play is harder, so he won't call off the infielder.

I think Rickey! is referring to if both players are calling for it. In that case, the IF defers to the OF, etc. Any other way is too complicated. You can't expect the SS to be running after a popup hit up the middle and also try to figure out if there is a 2B close enough that you call it, or if there is an OF close enough that won't call it. You always call it, then defer if you hear the OF, but keep shouting if you hear the 2B.

Just to be clear, at the time Mike Aviles was entering his 10th professional season of baseball, and was doing something he's been doing instinctively for all that time, and AFAICT was the accepted practice*, and the players had his back for the same. And then Valentine coaches him not to, and after three times of instinctively calling for the ball Aviles is confronted by Valentine yelling, essentially, "Are you deaf or just ####### stupid?" (Reconstructing from Valentine's present-day comments, with loudness and profanity added in per his recollection.)

And in response to Ortiz's comments on the situation, Valentine explains how his way is how everyone does it, and ever did it, and everyone knows it. And he took umbrage when the players told him Aviles deserves more respect than that. So, yeah, let's see, arrogant, unapologetic, obtuse? Sure. Maybe not so much narcissistic in this case, so, yeah, Boston media went way overboard with citing the one thing Valentine has been criticized for at every stop in his career but didn't show in this specific set of comments.

* If, as Valentine said, "In baseball – not in Bobby Valentine’s baseball, in all of baseball – the person who runs in for the ball calls for it. The person who runs out for the ball says nothing," I'd think that would be easy to prove. I mean, a quick Google search on baseball instruction should yield far more examples than counterexamples, right? Instead, everything I saw said the LF has priority over the SS, and that both should call for it, but it's on the SS to listen for the LF and the LF to ensure he's heard. That fits with my recollection of MLB convention. Nowhere did I see any suggestion that a player intending to catch a ball should not call for it, which is what Valentine was coaching Aviles to do. It wasn't a comprehensive search, but it's enough to put the burden back on those making the claim that Valentine's way is an all-of-baseball way, which is Valentine and... who?

I do not remember learning that the backpedaling shortstop never says anything and that the OF is the only player in that situation that will say "I got it."

It's a weird thing for V to harp on, but it's Bobby Valentine, so "harping on weird ####\" is sort of expected. There are usually at least three people yelling something on a in-betweener fly ball like that; the two players who think they have a shot at it, and the infield captain who is supposed to start yelling off the guy with the worse angle. That said, the generally agreed upon rule of thumb there is "the guy coming in on the ball always has the best angle," and is thus the deferred player.

An outfielder coming in on a ball that he's going to get to always has the best angle and line of approach. The SS should always give way, and yes, shouldn't be shouting BALL BALL BALL if it's going to require an over the shoulder basket catch. He continues to make that play until he hears the OF call him off.

On pop flies on left side of the infield, the SS is king. 3B should go back on those until he hears SS or LF call him off. 2B has the ball on pops down the 1B/short RF line. SS always takes precedent over 2B up the middle. C takes balls up the pipe unless a true infielder can get there instead. The pitcher should never, under any circumstance, field a ball that is not hit back at him on a loop or a line.

The pitcher should never, under any circumstance, field a ball that is not hit back at him on a loop or a line.

Which has always been a stupid ####### absolute. Pitchers shouldn't be calling off other infielders, for sure, but if the pitchers in the best position to catch a pop-up near (or, more meaningfully, on) the mound, he damn well ought to catch it.

There are very, very few popups that there's any need for the pitcher to make a play on, though. 98% of the time either the 1B or the 3B has plenty of time to walk over and field a popup hit in front of the mound, and the SS or 2B a popup hit behind the mound.

There are very, very few popups that there's any need for the pitcher to make a play on, though. 98% of the time either the 1B or the 3B has plenty of time to walk over and field a popup hit in front of the mound, and the SS or 2B a popup hit behind the mound.

I don't know about 98 percent, but yes there aren't many. But there are some, and having the first baseman charge in and have to run up the mound to field a pop-up rather than having the pitcher stay on the mound and catch it is absolutely absurd. There's no logical reason for it.

But there are some, and having the first baseman charge in and have to run up the mound to field a pop-up rather than having the pitcher stay on the mound and catch it is absolutely absurd. There's no logical reason for it.

The logical reason for it is the twin sibling of "why we should have DHs." Pitchers train to pitch. They don't train to hit or field. Yes, for the most part, they're going to figure out pop flies, but if you have a real defender with a real defender's glove available, get the specialized worker out of the way and let the player make the play.

I think everyone probably knew the list in 22, it's Valentine's version, that apparently includes that infielders should literally not ever audibly call for a ball, that the rest of us haven't heard of.

EDIT: Also, assuming Valentine is right, this is a rule that is routinely violated, probably hundreds of times per season. You'll see an in-between pop-up, the SS is going out and calling for it, then hears/sees the outfielder coming in calling for it, and the SS peels off to give the OFer the ball. This is something that happens all the time.

The logical reason for it is the twin sibling of "why we should have DHs." Pitchers train to pitch. They don't train to hit or field. Yes, for the most part, they're going to figure out pop flies, but if you have a real defender with a real defender's glove available, get the specialized worker out of the way and let the player make the play.

It's stupid. Pitchers field ground balls, line drives, throws from the catcher, tosses from the first baseman. They can't hit, but catching the ball is a core competency.

The pitcher is not on the mound any more than an infielder is, when he finishes delivering the pitch, though.

He's not on the rubber, but he's still on the dirt. And even if he weren't, so what? The pitcher is right next to the mound. The first baseman has to charge in, and then navigate the mound as he's got his eyes locked on the ball.

It's fine as a general rule on plays that can be fielded easily by either player. But as an absolute, it's batshit insane.

I think everyone probably knew the list in 22, it's Valentine's version, that apparently includes that infielders should literally not ever audibly call for a ball, that the rest of us haven't heard of.

Again, it's Bobby V. It's crazy, weird, arrogant, almost certainly poorly delivered to his players, and technically correct. The SS *shouldn't* be calling the ball on pops behind him. But because the SS is almost universally defensive captain of the INF and his instinct is to take everything he thinks he has a chance to get to, virtually every one of them *do* call the ball, even when it's behind them.

That's why we see so many shorstops calling off second basemen on pop-ups hit directly at them.

It's stupid

Okay. I mean, it's more or less the entirety of the way the best of the best of baseball players and teams have run things for the game's entire history to date, versus you. So, yeah. Okay. "Stupid." If that's what you need, man.

Okay. I mean, it's more or less the entirety of the way the best of the best of baseball players and teams have run things for the game's entire history to date, versus you. So, yeah. Okay. "Stupid." If that's what you need, man.

Crossposted from another thread:
Lots of players complained when chewing tobacco was banned from the dugouts. They're not the brightest bulbs, it turns out.

Crossposted from another thread:
Lots of players complained when chewing tobacco was banned from the dugouts. They're not the brightest bulbs, it turns out.

I deny your equivalency between chaw and professional managers and players just refusing to make the best play and give themselves the best chance to win. If the pitcher had the better play, they'd make the play. It's the same reason 3B come in and call off catchers on straight-up-the-pipe flies in foul ground. The player coming in from the longer angle has the better read on the ball than the player standing directly underneath the thing. Every single time. It's the same reason the outfielder(s) next to the guy playing the ball hit right at him are always (supposed to be) yelling "IN!" or "BACK!"

Okay. I mean, it's more or less the entirety of the way the best of the best of baseball players and teams have run things for the game's entire history to date, versus you. So, yeah. Okay. "Stupid." If that's what you need, man.

You're just gonna keep running down argument until you find one that sticks, huh?

Nah I'm with SoSH on this one- it's a good guideline in general, but not always the smartest play. We've all seen the 1st baseman come flying across the diamond, knocking the ball of the heel of his glove into foul territory. Or even the comical, if rare, thing where the ball drops between the four fielders, as the pitcher stands 10 feet behind the play.

And frankly the idea that baseball players, managers, and teams needlessly stick to tradition isn't a controversial one, is it?

I once saw a Double-A game end on a bases-loaded popup in the bottom of the 10th which the pitcher, catcher and third baseman surrounded, stood around a couple seconds, and watched drop to the ground perfectly between the three of them. That was fun.

I once saw a Double-A game end on a bases-loaded popup in the bottom of the 10th which the pitcher, catcher and third baseman surrounded, stood around a couple seconds, and watched drop to the ground perfectly between the three of them. That was fun.

That's exactly why players adhere to that rule so stringently: It's a good guideline in general, and by "general," it's the smartest play nine times out of ten (and even on that tenth one, the play's made anyways). Defense is hard, but it's made a lot easier if everyone agrees to, and sticks to, certain rules.

Every once in a while, sure, a ball bounces off the heel of a glove, but the vast, vast majority of the time those outs are made without incident or notice. Just because it happens once in a while doesn't mean players are dumb.

On pop flies on left side of the infield, the SS is king. 3B should go back on those until he hears SS or LF call him off.

Except that you say the SS should never call for it because he should be waiting to hear the LF to call him off. So if the LF doesn't have a shot at it, and the SS and 3B are quietly waiting to hear the LF, then both the SS and 3B are going for it without calling for it. And that's the fundamental thing calling for it is supposed to prevent.

Every coach except one, at every level, that has gone on record with this says each player who is going for the ball should call for it, and then the priority order you laid out determines who yields and who doesn't. The exception is Bobby Valentine, who says not just that the SS should never call for that ball, but that everyone in baseball everywhere knows this is correct. Even if the former were technically correct, the latter is very, very wrong.

Speaking of which ... didn't the Yankees play a pitcher at first base for one inning in a game a week or so ago? First batter hit a popup to first base. Pitcher (playing first base) botched it terribly and it fell untouched (I think foul). I am not taking sides in this very important debate, but it is pretty obvious that pitchers (in general) are not great at catching popups and that having a protocol for another fielder (say the first baseman) take charge when a popup goes towards the mound is a good idea (except when the first baseman is really a pitcher).

Wow, you really nailed me. I wrote down instead of through. You still haven't offered a logical explanation, on the other hand.

Pitchers don't field pop-ups because pitchers don't field pop-ups. But conventional wisdom once had managers routinely bunting with their No. 2 hitter in the top of the first, intentionally walking the 8 hitter before the pitcher in the bottom of the second, and still has managers failing to use their closer in a tie game in extra innings of a road playoff game. It may be conventional, but it ain't always wise.

That's exactly why players adhere to that rule so stringently: It's a good guideline in general, and by "general," it's the smartest play nine times out of ten (and even on that tenth one, the play's made anyways). Defense is hard, but it's made a lot easier if everyone agrees to, and sticks to, certain rules.

There's no reason pitchers can't simply fit in that hierarchy Sam listed earlier before he went and got all stupid. But there's another rule that's worked exceedingly well through the generations - if the ball is hit to you, you field it, not someone else. This is the single exception to that rule, on what amounts to a play that any big leaguer can make. And it makes no sense. It's introducing complexity and potential confusion (who should field a pop-up hit directly at the pitcher - the third baseman, first baseman?) on a play that's inherently quite simple.

By all means, allow the first baseman or third baseman to call off the pitcher on a pop-up hit between them. Or the middle infielders on one hit behind him. But at the mound or in front, where the first and third basemen may very well be playing well back, and the catcher should be the last choice on your hierarchy (due to initial vantage point, a mitt less designed for catching pop-ups and the equipment he's wearing), the pitcher should be expected to field the ball. You expect him to do that on grounders and line drives and taking throws from the first baseman while trying to beat a runner coming up behind him.

In Game 1 of the 2013 World Series, just this kind of pop-up dropped between several Cardinals players in a two-run second inning. If Adam Wainwright wasn't conditioned to take himself out of the play immediately, the ball is caught.

Except that you say the SS should never call for it because he should be waiting to hear the LF to call him off. So if the LF doesn't have a shot at it, and the SS and 3B are quietly waiting to hear the LF, then both the SS and 3B are going for it without calling for it.

A pop up that the SS and 3B are calling for is rarely a pop up that the SS and LF are convening on. Stick to the stats, man.

It's obviously admittedly rare, but it's so perfect that we were just discussing this a month ago.

jmurph Posted: May 15, 2017 at 04:22 PM (#5455840)
Nah I'm with SoSH on this one- it's a good guideline in general, but not always the smartest play. We've all seen the 1st baseman come flying across the diamond, knocking the ball of the heel of his glove into foul territory. Or even the comical, if rare, thing where the ball drops between the four fielders, as the pitcher stands 10 feet behind the play.