Thanks to George Antony for those comments regarding the teaching of
modern Hungarian history in the recent past. And it's true, as you point
out, that the Horthy era and the WWII years were not exactly white-washed in
the historical pictures taught in schools and so on. Which, as you go on to
say, may have contributed to the decline of the traditional nationalist
appeal. But I wonder if what you were talking about is exactly what the
idea embedded in the term means. I should say up front that I don't know
much from study, and nothing from experience, about the teaching of Hungarian
history in "People's" Hungary--but since, as George suggested, there was a
strong ideological motive behind the critical picture of the previous decades,
isn't that a little more like the way East Germany dealt with its past? If
the East German state could somehow magically become the inheritor of all the
progressive traditions of the German nation, including Luther and especially
Thomas Muntzer, was the depiction of Hungarian history under the "old regime"
also a way of blaming it all on the ruling classes, the gentry, the discredited
class enemies, with of course the subtext that it was "their" fault and thus
not something requiring much soul-searching or understanding, or "mastering"
by those being taught?
I'm only asking questions, because this is an issue that interests me from
selfish personal professional aspects. How typical a depiction of things was,
for example, the movie "Cold Days"? That seemed to me (having of course to
depend on the subtitles) relatively free from the kind of ideological loading
that the East German example mentioned above used to provide an escape route
from facing up to the past.
Anyway, just some meanderings...
Sincerely,
Hugh Agnew

>Istvan,>>Just out of curiosity - why do you spell your last name with a double s?>I have never seen that form of "Sipos" before.
To
I never thought about that! I guess for the same reason some people spell
Smith as Smyth. I really don't know, but I'm not the only one with such
spelling. I've found one guy on CompuServe with last name Siposs. He was
born here but his parents are Hungarian. Maybe related.
Istvan

on 7 Oct eloquently remembers the martyrs of
Arad. The following on the same general topic may be of interest:
The noted Swiss-Hungarian historian, Peter Gosztonyi recently published
a well documented history of political retribution in Hungary from the
time of Franz Josef (aftermath of the 1848 revolution) through Janos
Kadar. [Peter Gosztonyi, A Magyar Golgota, Szazszorszep Kiado es Nyomda
KFT, Budapest 1993.]
The following table, based on data from the book and ancillary sources
speaks for itself. As Gosztonyi states, the Kadar-Munnich-Morosan clique
has the ignominious distinction of having executed more Hungarians than
Haynau, Horthy and Szalasi combined.
Regime Dates Est. Executions Notes
______________________________________________________________________
Franz Josef 1849- 123
Bela Kun 1919 590 (1)
Miklos Horthy 1919-1944 68 (2)
Ferenc Szalasi 1944-1945 60 (3)
Rep. Hungary 1945-1947 189
Matyas Rakosi 1947- 400 (4)
Janos Kadar 1956- 600 (5)
(1) An interesting historical footnote is that the internationally known
Hungarian intellectual Gyorgy Lukacs is implicated in some of the
executions.
(2) Vigilantes murders raised the total number of victims to an
estimated 600. The number 68 refers to Royal Court Proceedings.
(3) Estimate only. Data from all prisons is not available. Figure does not
include deportation of Hungarians to German concentration camps
or atrocities commited after the German occupation by fascist gangs.
(4) It should be noted that between 1945 and 1949 55,000 persons and
1949-53 23,000 persons were imprisoned without the benefit of judicial
proceedings. According to Tamas Berecz between 1952 and 1955 1,136,434
people were "under investigation".
(5) Other sources give much larger numbers.
The following, freely translated from p.218ff of the above cited work,
puts the Kadar regime in proper historical perspective. Gosztonyi starts
with Kadar's famous proclamation in the name of the Revolutionary
Worker-Peasant Government of November 4, 1956 whose third point promised
"....the government will not tolerate that workers be persecuted under
any pretense for participation in the most recent events."
"Nice promise?
It is only that Janos Kadar completely ignored his own words. With this
attitude, he planted a whole forest of gallows in Hungary.
Following 1956 the retribution assumed the form of a bloodbath. Judges,
loyal to the party, just to name a few, included Ferenc Vida, Jozsef
Domonkos, Ferenc Nezval, Jozsef Tutsek, Endre Gratz, Istvan Gyepes from
December 1956 until the fall of 1961 sent 22,000 people to jail. About
400 of them were executed, including young girls...And Janos Kadar
didn't know anything about it? Recalling that Kadar was the interior
minister under Rakosi, he only cared for the "goal" and not the people.
..He was the leader of his country, he could have set aside the
punishments. He did not do it. The amnesty of March 21, 1963 was only
done with clenched teeth. Not of his own volition but because of pressure
from Russia, to make it easier for the American-Russian agreement. Even
after the "great amnesty", he tolerated that hundreds would remain in
jail...We know of young persons (Janos Puchert, Jeno Dalmadi) who were
only let out in the seventies.
Even those who were let out remained pariahs of the People's Republic,
third class citizens. Regardless of their profession, for decades they
were only allowed menial jobs, like buiding roads...their children were
barred from universities...they were not allowed to go abroad, even in
the 1980's it was a special priviledge to visit the CSSR.
Kadar knew all of this. If he had not known this, the "good king Janos"
was already senile in the 1970's.
I'm proud that when in the seventies it became fashionable in the West
to write of Kadar as a successful politician, his questionable
friendship with Willy Brandt, I did not succumb to the temptation...
For me, Janos Kadar, until his death remains the executioner of the
participants of Hungary's fight for freedom of 1956. Such persons who,
in view of his special position in the eyes of Moscow, could have
prevented, if he wanted to, the bloodshed caused by the "justice
system", as this was done in Czechoslovakia. For Kadar, the only thing
that was important was ideology and the use of power. I don't think
that he read the letter from Haynau to Marshall Radetzky, dated August
1849. In there the foreign executioner writes that "I'm going to restore
order in Hungary in such a way, that the rebellious Hungarians will not
raise their hands against the House of Habsburg..." Kadar did something
analogous, the only difference was that "the court" was not in Vienna,
but in Moscow."
---------------------
C.K. Zoltani

Csaba Zoltani wrote on 4 Oct 1994 12:14:49 EDT
>> Re: News of the refusal of the Slovak> authorities to permit a plaque> to be placed in the town of Szenc in> memory of Janos Esterhazy who was the only> member of the Slovak Parliament to vote on> May 12, 1942 against the deportation of the> Jewish population.>>> On 15 Sep 1994 20:54:53 -0400 George Frajkor >> writes:>> >Hungarian archives after the war showed that Esterhazy was a paid> >agent of the Horthy government.>>> The following may be of interest:>> 1. On January 21, 1993 the Russians rehabilitated Janos Esterhazy. Under> the seal of the Office of the Attorney General and the IG of the Armed> Forces and signed by N. Sz. Vlaszenko, document #Sz.: Zuv-9563-54 states> in part that>> It is hereby certified that Esterhazy Janos, citizen of> Czechoslovakia, born in Ujlak in 1901, was arrested without cause> on June 27, 1945.....and sentenced to ten years in a labor> camp....>> Esterhazy Janos was rehabilitated according to the Russian> Federation's "Political Terror Victim's Rehabilitation Act"> of October 18, 1991, paragraphs 3 and 5....">
I also don't know why he was in Soviet camp. If he was guilty he
should have been prisoned in CS.
> 2. The letter from Simon Wiesenthal to Dr. Peter Samko, chief judge of> the City of Pozsony (Bratislava), also published in the UJ SZO, May 5,> 1993. In his letter Wiesenthal strongly defends Esterhazy and offers> witnesses on his behalf. (See the article in UJ SZO, June 6, 1993, on> the testimonial of the Schlesinger family of Pozsony, saved by> Esterhazy.)>
Simon Wiesenthal also told that former Slovak president Tiso (1939-45)
was not on 'his' list of war criminals. But it isn't your business
and I haven't that article - sorry.
> 3. Jan George Frajkor also writes, on the same topic on 21 Sep 94:> ... [deleted]>>> According to the austrian Illustrierte Neue Zeitung, Esterhazy's> compatriots requested that the Order of Masaryk be awarded to Esterhazy.> However, President Havel sent the request to Pozsony (Bratislava)> stating that he is not competent to deal with Slovak affairs. The> austrian newspaper continues:>> "The Slovak fascists united with the Hungarian ex-communists to stop
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I don't know about whom you (or your newspapers) told. Can you tell me,
please, some names - who were those Sk fascists.
Your newspapers is probably prejudiced.
> the rehabilitation of Esterhazy. The fascist leaning part of the Slovak
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The same. About what media did you tell?
> media claimed that Esterhazy carries part of the blame for the break-up> of Czechoslovakia. That is, he is responsible for what they themselves> (the Slovak nationalists) advocated. In addition, they claimed that> Esterhazy was a paid agent of Horthy and his favoritism of the Jews was> only expressed in words. This story contains only a miniscule kernel of> truth in that Hungarians living in Slovakia received financial aid from> Hungary. This was publicly known.>> The timing of the campaign against Esterhazy was no coincident. It was> the 50th anniversary of the deportation of the Jews from Slovakia. The> followers of Tiso wanted to steer attention elsewhere..... This campaign> intimidated President Havel who put the request for the awarding of the> Order of Masaryk on hold. But the friends of Esterhazy did not give up> the fight.">> 4. Interview with Dr. Peter Samko, the judge in charge of reopening> Esterhazy's case, published in the newspaper UJ SZO, April 26, 1994.> Samko admits that according to some expert witnesses Esterhazy was not> ^^^> (contrary to the assertions of Jan George Frajkor, see above) "a paid> agent the of Horthy government".>>> C.K. Zoltani>
Csaba , J. Esztehazy was one of Magyar 'leaders' those partook
in the breaking of CS. In Magyar view - he helped to free
Magyar territory. Why do you think Slovaks should rehabilite him?
I sent my contribution about J.E. some weeks ago with subject
Janos Eszterhazy.
Can you reply to it? Because I think it's in contrast with your
articles.
Jozef Simek

Fair comments! I simply did not put much thought into my words before
writing them. I agree that all perspectives are important to such
discussions, and, really, I don't feel that most contributions to
the gypsy discussion have been chauvenistic. I sit corrected.
Jennifer

Tibor Asztalos writes:
> There was an official celebration in Budapest.>> The list of those who did not take part:> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^>> Arpad Goncz the President>> Gyula Horn the PM>> Zoltan Gal the chairman of the parliament
Did this break tradition? Either of the post-89 or post-WWI type?
--Greg

>i hope i am not in danger of a churchillian misunderstanding here, but i>would hope that any serious liberal would answer: "hold on there, you>bigotted bastard! what the hell do you mean by 'inferior culture and>habits'?"
Please follow the thread! The discussion started a while back with my
referencing a 20/20 or 60Minutes segments 2-3years ago on the problems
caused by Gypsies in several Western european countries. The segment
documented several Gypsie groups or clans teaching their children to
pick-pockets tourists as a source of income - the adults sent the kids
out to pick-pockets tourists. That is what I refered to as an unacceptable
cultural trait. I did not try to paint the whole culture as inferior, just
the trait(s) which are obviously unacceptable, like teaching your kids that
it's right to steal from those who have what you want. Who would have thought
there would have been objection to that, even among the liberal set!
The point was to use a clear and practical example of a negative cultural
trait, to make the point that there is such a thing as a negative cultural
trait - that is how this got started. If you want to argue that it's ok
to teach you kids to steal, if that is past of your culture, go right
ahead.
Paul

ibokor wrote:
******************************************************************************
writes:
>Rebecca Tracy wrote:>>>Because Romani people originally came from India, much of the underlying>>culture is based upon a caste system. Therefore, non-Roma are considered>>ritually unclean, and this causes problems with group interaction. It is>>difficult to maintain caste norms when you must work and live among>>"unclean" people.>>Thank you Rebecca for the honest most "defenders of the weak" on this>list haven't shown. I wasn't aware of this belief by the Roma, but>it is a clear example of an unacceptable idea people of all political>ideas can agree on. It doesn't make Roma bad people, and certainly
doesn't
>make them good people, but it is an idea held by people of that culture>which is wrong in the eyes of Europeans. Imagine that, a negative
cultural
>attribute! Shocking that the world is not like the image shown at the>'It's a Small World After All' ride at Disney Land. Can we agree that
this
>belief is not worth defending as part of Roma culture in Europe? At the>same time, I'm sure therare folks on the list who will defend this too.>>Paul .
that is a novel view on "europeans". the caste system is alive and well
in europe, albeit not equally in all nations. many european countries are
still monarchies: spain, the united kingdom, belgium, the netherlands,
denmark, sweden, norway, luxemburg, liechtenstein, monaco. they support
aristocracies with systemic privileges. even countries which are no longer
monarchies sometimes retain the aristocratic classes, such as germany,
where the extent of the privilege is not as great, but the entitlements
the vestige of previous days of glory.
the caste system takes different forms. in switzerland, republican or not,
not all citizens are equal, with distinctions highly correlated with, for
example, one's native language or origin. it is not unusual to hear there
that "a foreigner always remains a foreigner", even after obtaining
swiss citizenship. the same is true of the "pakis" and "chinks" in the
united kingdom, or the "turks" in germany.
in your eurocentic megalomania, you seem to have ignored the fact that
hungarians seem to originate, linguistically and historically from a
region as remote from the europe you cherish as the gypsies, and seem to
have arrived on the scene not too far apart in time.
it would indeed be interesting to see what european culture would be like
if all extra-european influences were removed as foreign. for a start,
look at "typically european food". what wuld be left if extra-european
foods were to be removed from the european diet?
no potatoes, no tomatoes, no paprika, no grapes, no tea, no coffee, no
garlic, no lemons, no peaches, no oranges, no pepper, no spaghetti, no
wine, no maize. need i go on?
******************************************************************************
You, as usual, have demonstrated that you are only too willing to
slur details to avoid acknowledgeing a distinction which you do not
accept. Yes Hungarians have likely arrived in Europe from Asia, however
they were the first to settle the area (at least that is one of several
competing theories). By now it should be clear that what I oppose is
the destruction of indiginous European cultures and ethnic groups by significan
t
influences forced on it from outside. You likely would have no objection to
protecting the cultures of native people living in a poor region of the world,
such as Africa or Asia (Tibet for example), but that zeal is lost when Europe
culture is at risk. Not very consistant.
In the case of the Gypsies, the point was made and supported with a reference,
that what is considered criminal behavior in Europe, is taught as appropriate
in traditional Gypsie culture, and that this is a clear example of a cultural
characteristic not worth defending. Your analogy between Gypsies and Hungarian
s
as both not native to Europe, and that therefore Hungary should accept Gypsie
culture as-is, is inconsistant since the Gypsie trait refered to above is
rejected by all European cultures. Conveniently ignoring that prevents
sincere discussion. In fact, all Europeans migrated there from someplace,
and have created many cultures, with common threads among them. Creating the
'native' culture is the right of the first inhabitants, and protecting
that culture is also their right. If this were not true, and native inhabitant
didn't have any special rights to the land they occupy, then the preservation
of any culture is a worthless pursuit, regardless of the physical wealth of
the peoples. Would you say it is not worth while to protect Native American
culture, for example? I wouldn't.
>it would indeed be interesting to see what european culture would be like>if all extra-european influences were removed as foreign. for a start,
Cultures learn from each other, and take what they need, and what they see as
beneficial. The difference is in going overboard in forcing acceptance
of an immigrant culture (that which came after the first settlers), or in
forcing neighboring peoples to merge, as in Yugoslavia, where several countries
were glued together to make on big one. Cultures may evolve naturally, but
foring that change on the native people is objectionable. If in fact the
Gypsies arrived in what is now Hungary, near the same time the Magyars did,
before country borders were defined (there is no better time to stop the clock
that I can think of) they they would be considered as native as any peoples,
though I would like to see more confirmation that they did arrive so long ago.
Just as with the Serbs now, and the Germans during the world wars, the Gypsies
would be expected to behave according to some basic accepted norms. Being a
poor people does not free them from tat responsibility. How can anyone deny
that?
BTW: The European caste nonsense you mentioned is irrelivant, and orders of
magnitude different than the Roma caste system (as described by Rebecca Tracy,
a
Roma herself).
>Can we agree that this>belief is not worth defending as part of Roma culture in Europe?>Paul
I didn't think so.
Paul

>group in Paris that steal. Michel Noir, Bernard Tapie, and the PR are not>gypsies, yet they have stolen millions of Francs from the pockets of the frenc
h
>people. I don't believe that where any Gypsies in the US congress that>were behind the Post Office scandal.
Again, the point has been missed! The parents and cultures of Michel Noir,
Bernard Tapie, and the US congressmen in question did not teach them it was
ok to steal. Once discovered they were all very embarressed. Not so with
the Gypsies in the 60 Minutes piece previously mentioned.
>If we were all logical people we would have adopted Esperanto>a long time ago.
Probably would save a lot of discussion :-)
Paul

>> What is the basis of the Romanes language? Does it still contain eastern>The core of the language is a basic vocabularly drawn, originally, from>Sanskrit. That amounts to about 3000 words in most dialects. It is, at this>point in time, very similar to modern Hindi. On top of that is a lot of word>borrowings, many from Persian and many more from Rumanian & Hungarian. There>is, as of 1980, a standard orthography, and a large number of publications>in Romanes have appeared over the years. So, it is *beginning* to be a>written language. It's probably got about 20 million native speakers (of a>wide variety of dialects) worldwide.>>Rebecca Tracy>OSU Slavic & East European Studies>e-mail
Rebecca,
I've read that Sanskrit, along with several other languages spoken by only
a few people in the Middle East, are thought to be the closest to the
Indo-European, among those languages still alive today. Have you come
across anything on this in your studies?
Paul

>"chauvenistic quacks"!, whoa those are harsh words! Certainly there has been>a bit of overexageration of the Gypsie problem, but there is some truth behind>the stories Paul has brought up. My family has a farm in Bourgogne that was>robbed by a band of Gypsies. Certainly there are many decent, educated Romas>in the world, but there are still too many that disrupt society. I do not>believe that this is the result of inferior genes, it is simply the resultof>poverty, gypsy culture, and yes discrimination.> Programs such as the one tried in Hungary to house and educate the Romas>need to be improved and enlarged. Stricter punishment of parents who force>their children to steal are needed. Most importantly more Rebeccas are needed
Agreed - Hurry for Rebeccas, hurry for Rebeccas, ... (no sarchasm intended, jus
t
silliness).
>for productive cultural pride. However "chauvenistic quacks" sounds like yet>another silly PC term. All opinions need to be heard in order to come up>with real solutions. Even those opinions that are ill-founded, (perhaps even>mine). That's my two Forints worth...marc
As the "chauvenistic quack" in question, I'd like to point out no one has
offered to dispute the 60Minutes story I referenced, and there have even
been some acknowledgements, as offered by marc (thank you, Marc) that there
is truth to what I have written. Contrary to some of the posting in
opposition to mine, I never suggested the Roma are inherantly bad. Just that
they do some stuff that should not be accepted, and that stuff is a part of
their culture (not their genes). And yes, all/most/many cultures teach stuff
that are wrong, and that was the whole point. Another example would be (boy I
hope I don't get stampeded again :-) ) female circumcision done in Africa
or foot-binding in China. At least those of us in the West consider this
mutilation, though these things are part of the cultures. Am I a
"chauvenistic quack" for calling thses things "mutilation"? Would/should these
things be allowed if immigrants to Europe/America insist on continuing these
practices? These might be harder to argue against since the victim are within
those cultures, as opposed to the Gypsie stealing victims documented in the
60Minutes story, who were not Gypsies, but part of the dominant cultures.
Anyone wanne try arguing in favor of foot-binding or female circumcision?
Paul

>I've read that Sanskrit, along with several other languages spoken by only>a few people in the Middle East, are thought to be the closest to the>Indo-European, among those languages still alive today. Have you come>across anything on this in your studies?>>Paul
I've come across similar musings in my linguistic forays. Frankly, I'm
somewhat skeptical of historical linguistics, but if the indo-european
languages arose from the Indian peninsula as is speculated, it makes sense
that Sanskrit is the basis for a lot of the child languages. Clearly, if we
look at the similarites among "indo-european" languages, a fair amount of
vocabulary can be directly linked with Sanskrit.
And then there's Hungarian. The amount of borrowing from magyarul into
romanes is significant, so it is an interesting example of a very compound
language. I guess it all goes to show that language, if not people, is
flexible enough to adapt to the needs of what surrounds it.
Rebecca Tracy
OSU Slavic & East European Studies
e-mail

Paul writes:
>In the case of the Gypsies, the point was made and supported with a reference,>that what is considered criminal behavior in Europe, is taught as appropriate>in traditional Gypsie culture, and that this is a clear example of a cultural>characteristic not worth defending.
One point of contention, Paul. There is no part of "traditional Gypsy
culture" that says it is okay to steal. I will grant that there are Roma
theives, just as there are Magyar theives and Irish theives and Jewish
theives. But it isn't a cultural tradition. Those that teach it to their
children are despised by those of us who live honorable lives. Stealing
violates Romaniya (traditional Romani culture) as well. And it only serves
to stain the reputation of the majority of Roma who are good people.
Rebecca Tracy
OSU Slavic & East European Studies
e-mail

Rebecca Tracy wrote:
>One point of contention, Paul. There is no part of "traditional Gypsy>culture" that says it is okay to steal. I will grant that there are Roma>theives, just as there are Magyar theives and Irish theives and Jewish>theives. But it isn't a cultural tradition. Those that teach it to their>children are despised by those of us who live honorable lives. Stealing>violates Romaniya (traditional Romani culture) as well. And it only serves>to stain the reputation of the majority of Roma who are good people.^C
Accepted - I sit corrected, but we do agree that there is at least
a considerable faction of Roma who do teach stealing is ok to
their kids, and that this cultural trait should be denounced.
The point I was making was that, yes there are Magyar theives and
Irish theives and Jewish theives, but this is not taught as part of
culture to be aceepted, whereas among some Roma it is. No need
to get rid of Roma folks, but there is a need to make some changes.
Do we agree? I think we do, anyway.
Paul

I wrote:
>>>One point of contention, Paul. There is no part of "traditional Gypsy>>culture" that says it is okay to steal. I will grant that there are Roma>>theives, just as there are Magyar theives and Irish theives and Jewish>>theives. But it isn't a cultural tradition. Those that teach it to their>>children are despised by those of us who live honorable lives. Stealing>>violates Romaniya (traditional Romani culture) as well. And it only serves>>to stain the reputation of the majority of Roma who are good people.^C
Paul answered:
> Accepted - I sit corrected, but we do agree that there is at least> a considerable faction of Roma who do teach stealing is ok to> their kids, and that this cultural trait should be denounced.>> The point I was making was that, yes there are Magyar theives and> Irish theives and Jewish theives, but this is not taught as part of> culture to be aceepted, whereas among some Roma it is. No need> to get rid of Roma folks, but there is a need to make some changes.>> Do we agree? I think we do, anyway.>> Paul
Yes, those Roma who steal and, worse, who teach their children that it is
part of beign Roma to steal should be denounced. My point was that this is
*not* a part of "traditional" Roma culture.
Rebecca Tracy
OSU Slavic & East European Studies
e-mail

In the bad old days (pre 1989) there was a special detail in the Budapest
Police named the "Gypsy detail". Its members were not Romas, but they
spoke the language and knew the culture. Of course, they were disbanded
because they were not politically correct. I read an interview about
them, and one officer stated:
When a Gypsy says "I am innocent", he merely means that "I have not
killed a man."
They use of the language, or the concept of innocence differs from that
of the dominant culture and this leads to misunderstandings.
I must say, if you go to Hungary, and speak to the people, there is such
a loathing of the Gypsies that it curdles the blood. It is totally
unrelieved by liberal angst or guilt, it cuts accross all age groups, all
income levels and all educational levels. If you read Hungarian, just
sample the Gypsy jokes on MOKA, submitted by post-graduate academics.
Tom

Greg wrote about the national day of mourning
There was an official celebration in Budapest.
The list of those who did not take part:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Arpad Goncz the President
Gyula Horn the PM
Zoltan Gal the chairman of the parliament
the list of those who took part:
A state secratary as representative of Arpad Goncz (who participated a
conference of lawyers)
Gyorgy Keleti minister of defence as representative of the government
Maria Korodi deputy of the chairman Gal
**********************************************
The prime minister was not there even if:
> On October 6th, 1849, the Austrians also executed in Pest Count> Lajos Batthya1ny, the former Prime Minister who had, however, counted on
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THE FISRT PM of HUNGARY
Best wishes: Tibor Asztalos SZEGED