LW... quick question cause I really have no clue... is the GED a federal level thing? Or will each state have different rules?

He talks about it and plans on getting it and if there is a written element then we need to do this now. He is one of the smartest people I know. But as you can imagine, what with the ADD and the anxiety... he tests terribly.

If he is in good shape academically, as it sounds, this is probably a cakewalk for him. The GES is 5 tests: math, reading, writing, science, social studies. The math goes up through basic algebra, the science and social studies are more reading comprehension than anything because the answers to the questions can all be found in the question or a reading passage or similar.

Math and writing are the parts I spend most time on with students just because those are the hardest after being away from school. If his math and grammar are solid, this will be a snap for him.

The Steck-Vaughn books are what we use because they prepared the current test. If he can do well on the practice exams in those books, he is good to go. He doesn't need classes or anything like that.

We use the individual subject books, not that one, but I'd recommend that one as a good starting point. If he breezes through the practice tests, he can sign up to do the official test. If not, it will let him know what to focus on, which is math for most people. The most challenging part of the math exam is the brutal time limit.

Also, while he still has valid disability accommodations, they will have to honor them! If he waits until he no longer has them, it's a painful process to get them for the test.

Again, scare him with the new test! It sure has me scared. I do not know how our students will pass the new test as it really seems unreasonably difficult and demanding. I've seen some sample questions and I don't think my current high school seniors would have an easy time either. We should be trying to help more people, not weed them out, for forks sake.

_________________"This is the creepiest post ever if you don't know who Molly is." -Fee"a vegan death match sounds like something where we all end up hugging." -LisaPunk

TRS is in Seattle's APP program. That's the "accelerated progress program," so, yeah, he's in the accelerated progress program program. He's been in it since 1st grade. He starts middle school (6th grade) next year, and because he scored above the threshold on Seattle's so-called MAP test, he could go into algebra next year or regular 8th grade math. Algebra is the tougher one.

Mrs. Face and I (and parents of other prospective 6th grade algebrats*) went to a meeting with the principal and some teachers. They reminded us about all the adjustments in store for these kids and let us know that algebra might not be the best fit for our kids. Lots of work, lots of pressure, lots of difficult middle school stuff, and with this more difficult class added to the mix, we might be overloading the kids. Some kids can handle it, some can't. The adjustment to middle school is a soft landing for some kids and a hard landing for others.

Now, TRS is a smart cookie. I have no doubt he could handle the tougher material. But he is not a self-starter. He is not an independent kid who's up for any challenge. He gets frustrated easily and he's prone to anxiety. And if a sixth-grader takes algebra, by the time they're done with their sophomore year in high school, they've finished calculus. At which point, they've still go two years of math in front of them. They can do Running Start for two years (going to a community college for a class every day, or whatever, for college credit). And even if they're in sixth grade, their algebra grades count. They go on their official transcripts. (Because it's like 9th grade material? I don't know. I don't really get it.)

So while we're listening to the teachers, we're both thinking, "He should go into math 8, not algebra. Let's not sabotage this kid." After the meeting, Mrs. Face stuck around to talk with TRS's current teacher. She said TRS was one of the few kids in her class who she thought should be in algebra.

I'm confused. It seems to me that the risk of putting him in a class that's just too much for him is greater than the potential reward. TRS has a natural facility with numbers. He grasps new mathematical concepts easily. But he's not a real "math kid." He claims not to enjoy math class, and it's not like he's always challenging himself to take on more and more difficult material. So what would he really be missing by waiting until 7th grade to take algebra.

Oh, but if his best friend takes algebra he says he'll want to. I don't think that's enough of a reason. I don't think it's up to him, but that only makes it harder.

*I am awesome.

Toby is in pre-algebra this year. He will start algebra next year and then geometry. At the end of each year, he has to take an end of course exam and pass it to get high school credit. I will be a contrarian and suggest that the work load in middle school is huge compared to elementary school. I think cutting him a break and letting him adapt to middle school would be best.

_________________A whole lot of access and privilege goes into being sanctimonious pricks J-DubDessert is currently a big bowl of sanctimonious, passive aggressive vegan enduced boak. FezzaYou people are way less funny than Pandacookie. Sucks to be you.-interrobang?!

How are they teaching algebra? Here, middle school kids do part one in 7th grade and part two in 8th grade, so the pace isn't stressful. If its all in one year, I'd also say its probably not a great idea.

In the two part method here, they move slowly enough and the workload isn't really more than regular math, it's jut less busy work for the kids who "get it."

You could also contact the actual teachers and ask about homework etc. Actually, I'd really recommend that. They know who is successful and how much work it entails.

ETA: I'm thinking I don't understand here, this would go on high school transcript? As a GRADE? Or just a pass/fail? I'd be so against a middle school grade following any kid around. Here, they have to take the state test at the end of the year to get the credit, but the worst that happens if they dnt pass is they retake algebra in 9th.

_________________"This is the creepiest post ever if you don't know who Molly is." -Fee"a vegan death match sounds like something where we all end up hugging." -LisaPunk

TRS is in Seattle's APP program. That's the "accelerated progress program," so, yeah, he's in the accelerated progress program program. He's been in it since 1st grade. He starts middle school (6th grade) next year, and because he scored above the threshold on Seattle's so-called MAP test, he could go into algebra next year or regular 8th grade math. Algebra is the tougher one.

Mrs. Face and I (and parents of other prospective 6th grade algebrats*) went to a meeting with the principal and some teachers. They reminded us about all the adjustments in store for these kids and let us know that algebra might not be the best fit for our kids. Lots of work, lots of pressure, lots of difficult middle school stuff, and with this more difficult class added to the mix, we might be overloading the kids. Some kids can handle it, some can't. The adjustment to middle school is a soft landing for some kids and a hard landing for others.

Now, TRS is a smart cookie. I have no doubt he could handle the tougher material. But he is not a self-starter. He is not an independent kid who's up for any challenge. He gets frustrated easily and he's prone to anxiety. And if a sixth-grader takes algebra, by the time they're done with their sophomore year in high school, they've finished calculus. At which point, they've still go two years of math in front of them. They can do Running Start for two years (going to a community college for a class every day, or whatever, for college credit). And even if they're in sixth grade, their algebra grades count. They go on their official transcripts. (Because it's like 9th grade material? I don't know. I don't really get it.)

So while we're listening to the teachers, we're both thinking, "He should go into math 8, not algebra. Let's not sabotage this kid." After the meeting, Mrs. Face stuck around to talk with TRS's current teacher. She said TRS was one of the few kids in her class who she thought should be in algebra.

I'm confused. It seems to me that the risk of putting him in a class that's just too much for him is greater than the potential reward. TRS has a natural facility with numbers. He grasps new mathematical concepts easily. But he's not a real "math kid." He claims not to enjoy math class, and it's not like he's always challenging himself to take on more and more difficult material. So what would he really be missing by waiting until 7th grade to take algebra.

Oh, but if his best friend takes algebra he says he'll want to. I don't think that's enough of a reason. I don't think it's up to him, but that only makes it harder.

*I am awesome.

If he at all wants to try the harder class, I'd strongly encourage you to give it a chance...and act like you think he can handle it. He sounds a lot like how I was about math at that age, and in my case, the decision was kinda made for me that I would go into the "regular accelerated" class instead of the "advanced accelerated" class. It seemed like a logical choice at the time, since like TRS I wasn't that into math and I wasn't always pushing myself to go above and beyond, and I was in that place of sorta starting to get overwhelmed with school, etc. etc. But actually what it meant was that I was separated from my friends, all of whom went on to the "advanced" class, and instead of getting the message that my parents and teachers believed in me and my abilities, I got the message that I wasn't really very good at math. So I stopped trying at all. By the end of the school year my "math skills" had deteriorated so much that I was "diagnosed" with a "learning disability" (I don't have any such learning disability!) and that was basically the end of my math education. It just...ended, at grade 8.

So, of course you shouldn't base your parenting decisions on my parents' parenting decisions ;-) But as counterintuitive as it may seem, it sounds like it might be sabotaging him even more to put him in a less advanced class, especially if that would separate him from his friend. If his teacher thinks he can handle it, and he feels like you think he can handle it, that may do a lot more to ensure his success than putting him in a math class that's "easier". If it really doesn't work out, it's probably more possible for him to go back to an easier class later on than it would be for him to jump into a harder class if he's not happy in the easier class.

_________________Man, fork the gender card, imma come at you with the whole damned gender deck. - Olives Did you ever think that, like, YOU are a sexy costume FOR a diva cup? - solipsistnationblog!FB!

Huh, that's interesting. When I was in middle school we did pre-algebra in 7th grade. 8th graders were placed in algebra unless they needed to repeat pre-algebra. I found algebra pretty easy as a gifted student, so I'm sure he can handle it!

_________________"One time I meant to send a potential employer a resume, but I accidentally sent them a bucket of puke!

I forgot to mention that Toby's gifted program moves kids up to the more advanced math if they are breezing through the easier class. That might be an option as well.

But a lot of parents forget that their kids will be working for most of their life. They push them too hard to work too much while they are young. You need time to be a kid.

_________________A whole lot of access and privilege goes into being sanctimonious pricks J-DubDessert is currently a big bowl of sanctimonious, passive aggressive vegan enduced boak. FezzaYou people are way less funny than Pandacookie. Sucks to be you.-interrobang?!

I agree that kids need time to be kids, but every kid is different and lots of kids experience learning as fun rather than work, especially if they are doing well at the subject. I do think its a nice vote of confidence for TRS though, and I would be hesitant to say no if he wanted to do it.

_________________My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.

Yeah, it's surprising how things have changed since I went to school (but I'm old). In my school, the accelerated math did pre-algebra in 6th grade, algebra in 7th, and then for some reason still totally unclear to me they let more people into the class and then dicked around doing the same stuff again in 8th grade (I wasn't held back or anything, it was that the class got 2x as big and covered a lot of the same algebra material again for reasons I've never figured out!).

I did geometry in 9th and then changed schools to a NCSSSMST high school, where I (along with the plurality of other students, probably) started a 3 semester pre-calc and 3 semester BC calc sequence. (At my home high school it would've been a year each of advanced algebra, pre-calc, and (AB?) calculus). There were definitely people though who got to my high school (started in 10th grade) that went straight into calculus or even had done calc and did just fine.. but we had a lot of extra electives (multivariable calc, diffeq, etc) to keep people busy!

I say you can never run out of math, and some of my favorite math courses are ones I never would have run into had I waited to take basic calculus until, say, college. Like abstract algebra especially!!

Part of me is not super in love, though, with the idea of just making the age kids learn certain types of math be younger and younger. I wonder whether the understanding is still there. I'd rather see enrichment done with more theoretical and, say, recreational math topics.. instead of spending all of 7th grade (for me) factoring binomials. Maybe TRS would enjoy mathletes? It's so different from the kind of stuff in math class that he might really enjoy it.

I forgot to mention that Toby's gifted program moves kids up to the more advanced math if they are breezing through the easier class. That might be an option as well.

But a lot of parents forget that their kids will be working for most of their life. They push them too hard to work too much while they are young. You need time to be a kid.

This is wise. Shae's program does the same thing. There are actually 2 levels of "gifted" maths in each grade for middle school and lots of kids are adjusted up and down smoothly if needed.

I think the most important thing is whether TRS feels like he wants to do the higher level or not, if he's worried about it, then that's the stress that you may want to avoid. I always thought we should move through the stress, but sometimes, it's better to just give them what they can handle at a time. (stress wise, not workload wise)

I am generally encouraging of kids to take a tougher class if they think they can - you're spending 30+ hours a week in school, it'll be much more engaging if you're being challenged. But I think you should also look at whether that will mean a corresponding increase in homework - it's all well and good to have a more challenging school day, but the fact that kids are expected to basically work a full time job and then bring work home is absolutely not okay to my mind - I wouldn't want to add to that craziness. And it doesn't sound like you think he *wouldn't* be challenged in Math 8. So, yeah. I think the stress/time commitment/homework piece is the biggest one.

Also, educationally, I do not think it is of any benefit to take math earlier. Especially since most of the kids that I used to teach math to in high school, in advanced classes, could barely deal with a fraction or basic factoring or a little graphing while they were being asked to solve rational equations (and other such examples). Going faster did not help them, it just meant they weren't fully equipped to deal with new material. I went to a college that focused on engineering and the physical sciences and the kids who got there without having taken calculus first did just as well as the ones who got there with two years of calculus under their belts. It was of zero benefit to me to have taken two years of college math (and gotten college credit for it) within my physical sciences major.

Maybe take a step back and take a long view? Either class he takes is going to be accelerated. A sixth grade child going into 8th grade math is not some sort of step down. He'd be doing calculus by the end of high school which many people never do at all, ever, in their entire lives. Is there a good reason to put him into the algebra? What other interests and activities does he do? I think there's a real tendency to push 'gifted' kids to do heavy book work in schools but there are other things to learn and do that are equally important that get glossed over by parents trying to race their kid to the academic top. He might be able to handle the work load but he might rather be working on making an alien comic or something. Or playing pool or soccer or learning to knit. How bad is his anxiety? Does it affect his school work now? That can be super tough for a kid who is still learning their coping mechanisms. And since you live in a large city, I would imagine there are opportunities that you could find if it turns out he wants to be a number theorist and in two years wants to take all the math all the time.

_________________Panda With Cookie If I get caught as a fugitive eating chain pizza, its going to be Pizza Hut. -linanilanil

How bad is his anxiety? Does it affect his school work now? That can be super tough for a kid who is still learning their coping mechanisms.

Good point.

My initial thought was to agree with lavawitch that perhaps the more accelerated class might be a better social fit. I know that I had problems with anxiety in school which sometimes hurt my grades, so the school would put me in regular rather than honors classes, and it was actually much rougher for me in regular classes. I pretty strongly identified as a nerd, basically, and that just wasn't acceptable in the regular level classes like it was in the honors classes. The increased social anxiety was much worse for me than the stress of more difficult courses.

Here it's fractions, basic geometry (area, volume, Pythagorean theorem), simple ratios, square roots. Some other stuff, but it's mostly bullshiitake since the kids all use calculators and therefore never develop any kind of number sense. They do some stuff like tessellations too. I don't think they introduce negative numbers until algebra, but I could be wrong on that.

_________________"This is the creepiest post ever if you don't know who Molly is." -Fee"a vegan death match sounds like something where we all end up hugging." -LisaPunk

I forgot to mention that Toby's gifted program moves kids up to the more advanced math if they are breezing through the easier class. That might be an option as well.

But a lot of parents forget that their kids will be working for most of their life. They push them too hard to work too much while they are young. You need time to be a kid.

This is wise. Shae's program does the same thing. There are actually 2 levels of "gifted" maths in each grade for middle school and lots of kids are adjusted up and down smoothly if needed.

I think the most important thing is whether TRS feels like he wants to do the higher level or not, if he's worried about it, then that's the stress that you may want to avoid. I always thought we should move through the stress, but sometimes, it's better to just give them what they can handle at a time. (stress wise, not workload wise)

I should mention that we had history day projects, science fair projects, papers to write, assigned reading, drum practice, band rehearsal, and so forth. Some nights it can be 2 hours of homework and we try to never wait for the last minute. Toby's in advanced math but it's his favorite subject. I would not have let him take it on otherwise. There are plenty of nights with anxiety because some piece of homework is left to be finished.

_________________A whole lot of access and privilege goes into being sanctimonious pricks J-DubDessert is currently a big bowl of sanctimonious, passive aggressive vegan enduced boak. FezzaYou people are way less funny than Pandacookie. Sucks to be you.-interrobang?!

I am mostly philosophically opposed to homework. Some small exceptions like reading, chemistry, physics, and math. As a teacher, it is my job to plan my days to include a solid mixture of new material, review, practice, and hands on so they don't need lots of out of class homework. If I must assign something, I tell kids to put in a solid, real 15 minutes, then stop. Talk to me if it took longer. This is super rare. I give a minimum of 3 weeks for any project, always give a little class time, and give benchmarks for pacing out the work so nobody is up until 3am the night before, plus don't expect them to spend more than a total of 2 hrs max)

Our students wouldn't do homework anyway, but even if they would, admin is mostly on board the no homework rule.

When I was in elementary school and in gifted classes, I would often have 4-6 hrs homework and we got in trouble if it wasn't completed. I was a fast worker too! We had no family life. Then we moved to,an area with crappy schools where I was effectively bumped back 4+ yrs in material and I hated school ever since.

If homework is too much, parents should absolutely make them,selves heard about it!l!

_________________"This is the creepiest post ever if you don't know who Molly is." -Fee"a vegan death match sounds like something where we all end up hugging." -LisaPunk

I forgot to mention that Toby's gifted program moves kids up to the more advanced math if they are breezing through the easier class. That might be an option as well.

But a lot of parents forget that their kids will be working for most of their life. They push them too hard to work too much while they are young. You need time to be a kid.

This is wise. Shae's program does the same thing. There are actually 2 levels of "gifted" maths in each grade for middle school and lots of kids are adjusted up and down smoothly if needed.

I think the most important thing is whether TRS feels like he wants to do the higher level or not, if he's worried about it, then that's the stress that you may want to avoid. I always thought we should move through the stress, but sometimes, it's better to just give them what they can handle at a time. (stress wise, not workload wise)

I should mention that we had history day projects, science fair projects, papers to write, assigned reading, drum practice, band rehearsal, and so forth. Some nights it can be 2 hours of homework and we try to never wait for the last minute. Toby's in advanced math but it's his favorite subject. I would not have let him take it on otherwise. There are plenty of nights with anxiety because some piece of homework is left to be finished.

Yes! All of the classes, sports and extra circulars just really add up. Shae did advanced in all of his classes all through middle school, but this year he took the lower level advanced math, still labelled advanced but not math team.

If homework is too much, parents should absolutely make them,selves heard about it!l!

Yes! I don't know why more parents don't complain. The teachers usually don't agree with tons of homework either. Sometimes it's coming down from some strange authority or simply tradition that THEY MUST HAVE HOURS OF HOMEWORK but really no one that is actually an expert in teaching and learning thinks that tons of homework is useful. If homework is impacting your quality of life after school, complain! Schools will listen to complaining parents.

Here it's fractions, basic geometry (area, volume, Pythagorean theorem), simple ratios, square roots. Some other stuff, but it's mostly bullshiitake since the kids all use calculators and therefore never develop any kind of number sense. They do some stuff like tessellations too. I don't think they introduce negative numbers until algebra, but I could be wrong on that.

So maybe TRS has already seen most of that stuff, or could pick it up really quickly if he had to drop back to the 8th grade math class.

I agree with the people who've been concerned about a good social fit. When I was in high school I decided to take some summer classes in math, and I found that while the math was stuff I needed to learn, it was taught with such low expectations because the rest of the people in the class were community college students who were only getting to "advanced algebra" material *after high school*, and so I was beyond bored by the pace of the class. It was clear that most of them were just not capable of thinking mathematically. And while I was able to skip a semester back at high school the next fall, I had really missed a lot because my high school, surprisingly enough, taught the material at a much more advanced/in depth level than a community college. I would say having TRS in class with other smart kids is more important than whatever they're studying.

Things just got bad again. Flames was awful all week. She scammed me out of some money. Then she read a page of my journal where I was complaining about her scamming me out of some money (actually a fairly large amount, which she is supposed to pay back now,) and went ballistic. I was out. Returned to an email about how I have no right to call myself a mother--because no real mother ever would talk bad about her kid! and she knows I want her to fail and how (last foster parent) hated her, too, but at least told her to her face, on and on. How she's not going to have anything to do with me anymore, she's not part of my family, she's never going to ask me for anything, she's going to succeed just to show me, you get the idea. I don't think she has any intention to move out, so I'm not sure what having nothing to do with me will look like. I tried to talk to her last night, but she stayed locked in her room and just turned the music up. I sent some emails about how reading my journal was a huge violation, that I have the right to privacy, and the right to work out my thoughts and express anger, and none of that means lack of love. Just got more hostile emails in return. I don't know. At this point, she's 18, I'm ready to let her stick to the not talking to me thing. fork, it's a break. See where things are in a week. I'm not willing to live indefinitely with a hostile stranger in my basement tho, so she needs to think about how she wants to relate to me.

If homework is too much, parents should absolutely make them,selves heard about it!l!

Yes! I don't know why more parents don't complain. The teachers usually don't agree with tons of homework either. Sometimes it's coming down from some strange authority or simply tradition that THEY MUST HAVE HOURS OF HOMEWORK but really no one that is actually an expert in teaching and learning thinks that tons of homework is useful. If homework is impacting your quality of life after school, complain! Schools will listen to complaining parents.

I should note that much of the homework Toby is assigned is related to larger projects. (They break them down into steps. Part of the goal is to teach them to be organized and to teach them study skills.) It's rarely due the next day. Part of his homework includes 30 minutes of reading a night and 20+ minutes of drumming. If he works ahead and stays on top of things, it's very manageable. If he waits, his anxiety is triggered and he's miserable. I see this as teaching him important skills for life in general.

BUT if he were really into a sport or something else that took a ton of time, I might not have put him in the school. I picked the school that met his needs, not the one that I would have chosen for me. That is the best thing you can do for your kid.

_________________A whole lot of access and privilege goes into being sanctimonious pricks J-DubDessert is currently a big bowl of sanctimonious, passive aggressive vegan enduced boak. FezzaYou people are way less funny than Pandacookie. Sucks to be you.-interrobang?!

Things just got bad again. Flames was awful all week. She scammed me out of some money. Then she read a page of my journal where I was complaining about her scamming me out of some money (actually a fairly large amount, which she is supposed to pay back now,) and went ballistic. I was out. Returned to an email about how I have no right to call myself a mother--because no real mother ever would talk bad about her kid! and she knows I want her to fail and how (last foster parent) hated her, too, but at least told her to her face, on and on. How she's not going to have anything to do with me anymore, she's not part of my family, she's never going to ask me for anything, she's going to succeed just to show me, you get the idea. I don't think she has any intention to move out, so I'm not sure what having nothing to do with me will look like. I tried to talk to her last night, but she stayed locked in her room and just turned the music up. I sent some emails about how reading my journal was a huge violation, that I have the right to privacy, and the right to work out my thoughts and express anger, and none of that means lack of love. Just got more hostile emails in return. I don't know. At this point, she's 18, I'm ready to let her stick to the not talking to me thing. fork, it's a break. See where things are in a week. I'm not willing to live indefinitely with a hostile stranger in my basement tho, so she needs to think about how she wants to relate to me.

I'm so sorry, Friday. It sounds as if the regular teen impulsiveness is ramped up in Flames' case. You are doing good work and I hope that Flames' appreciates it. How is brother-of-flames doing?

_________________A whole lot of access and privilege goes into being sanctimonious pricks J-DubDessert is currently a big bowl of sanctimonious, passive aggressive vegan enduced boak. FezzaYou people are way less funny than Pandacookie. Sucks to be you.-interrobang?!

That seems to follow the pattern of her acting out when she gets caught doing something wrong and throwing it back on you. I bet she'll come around but she'll have to come to terms with her own poor behaviour first. Perhaps enjoy the silence.

I do like the part where she says you want her to fail. So much so that you took in a troubled teen and brother, set up banking for her, gave her space, helped navigate high school, helped set longer term goals, provided basic needs and stability and shelter which she hasn't had before and flipped your own life over in order to help a stranger. Damn you and the vast expanse of your heart!

_________________Panda With Cookie If I get caught as a fugitive eating chain pizza, its going to be Pizza Hut. -linanilanil