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I just stumbled upon this bit of data from the Daily Show and I'm having a hard time finding solid facts about the whole thing.

From what Jon Stewart said the don't ask, don't tell bill was mixed in with a few other bills that were not appealing therefore when you voted for the things the voters didn't want they were also upholding that policy because there was no other choice.

Something like that... Does that happen a lot where bills big people in congress don't like wind up in sort of a mass bill with a ton of other things that are undesirable and somewhat offensive / conservative / liberal?

I just stumbled upon this bit of data from the Daily Show and I'm having a hard time finding solid facts about the whole thing.

From what Jon Stewart said the don't ask, don't tell bill was mixed in with a few other bills that were not appealing therefore when you voted for the things the voters didn't want they were also upholding that policy because there was no other choice.

Something like that... Does that happen a lot where bills big people in congress don't like wind up in sort of a mass bill with a ton of other things that are undesirable and somewhat offensive / conservative / liberal?

People whining about Don't Ask Don't Tell are even stupider than the policy itself. What's so hard about lying and just saying you're straight? They gonna test you by dangling dicks and boobs in your face to see which gives you a boner? You're willing to kill, lying about your sexuality shouldn't be a problem.

I don't see why they don't just start up a gay brigade, like they had those black fighter pilots in WWII. then they government can get like a competition between everyone to try and make their side the better soldiers and stuff.

I just stumbled upon this bit of data from the Daily Show and I'm having a hard time finding solid facts about the whole thing.

From what Jon Stewart said the don't ask, don't tell bill was mixed in with a few other bills that were not appealing therefore when you voted for the things the voters didn't want they were also upholding that policy because there was no other choice.

Something like that... Does that happen a lot where bills big people in congress don't like wind up in sort of a mass bill with a ton of other things that are undesirable and somewhat offensive / conservative / liberal?

From what I understand, politics blows. :\

This happens in every country.

Important bills and budgets cuts get muddled in together with a bunch of other mundane ones in the hopes that no one will notice.

We just had 20 million from the budget that was meant for ECE in NZ. Not even the union knew until someone found out by accident.

Does anyone else think that the ending of this policy will cause a mass exodus (and severe under-recruitment) from the military as the uneducated homophobes (most of the people I have met that were lower rank military fall into this category) leave because they don't want some "Homo" looking at their "Johnson" while in the shower? I'm not supportive of that point of view, but I see it happening. At least with DADT, these guys didn't KNOW that the guy guarding their ass was possibly admiring it.

Now, I think there will be a good possibility that they'll get so caught up in that aspect that they'll forget that they are supposed to be killing the "bad" guys.

I don't think there will be any changes at all. I really don't see the recruitment/enlistment numbers going down, either. If a person wants to serve in the military, they're going to do so regardless of DADT. Before it was repealed, they were still gay people and everyone knew that. The only thing that's changed is people don't have to lie about who they are.

At least with DADT, these guys didn't KNOW that the guy guarding their ass was possibly admiring it.

Just because the military will no longer have a policy pertaining to sexual orientation doesn't mean people are just going to jump up and scream "I'M GAY!!!!" The military is still an organization full of meatheads and good ole boys, I doubt everyone is going to be making announcements. Just because saying your gay is allowed doesn't meant its in a persons best interests to do so.

I don't think it will change much, that whole contract thing keeps people from just up and quitting. Maybe some people who are openly and obviously gay will take the opportunity to get their college paid for through the army, but probably nothing major will change.

But as an update, DADT was ruled unconstitutional by a federal judge in California. The judge then ordered an injunction, meaning she ordered the Pentagon to end the policy. The DoJ has requested that the judge rescind the injunction, though they haven't formally appealed it. They have less than sixty days to do so now. The Pentagon has ordered the end of DADT, but has also strongly recommended that gay servicemen and -women to still keep their orientation a secret.

The Samurai, Sparta and Thebes, the aforementioned Royal Navy. Quite a few military cultures had a strong homosexual component.

Thats a ways back. I wouldn't really take it as precedent that todays military is similar in any way. The Roman Senate also had a strong homosexual component, but I wouldn't suggest that the Senate has proportionally more gays than the general population.

The Samurai, Sparta and Thebes, the aforementioned Royal Navy. Quite a few military cultures had a strong homosexual component.

Thats a ways back. I wouldn't really take it as precedent that todays military is similar in any way. The Roman Senate also had a strong homosexual component, but I wouldn't suggest that the Senate has proportionally more gays than the general population.

Whatever. You wanted examples, you got them. The Samurai class was abolished about 100 years ago, and the Royal Navy is still in operation. I didn't invent the quote attributed to Churchill "Don't talk to me about naval tradition. It's nothing but rum, sodomy and the lash".

It doesn't seem to be a stretch of the imagination to understand the attraction of a lifestyle emphasising fitness and youth of the (predominantly male) body, as well as life in close quarters.

Also, overt homophobia and related punishment never prevented homosexual acts to take place. In fact, they can even be the expression of an ambiguous interest. Just check out how many anti-homo religious leaders got caught doing what the precisely condemned.

The Samurai, Sparta and Thebes, the aforementioned Royal Navy. Quite a few military cultures had a strong homosexual component.

Thats a ways back. I wouldn't really take it as precedent that todays military is similar in any way. The Roman Senate also had a strong homosexual component, but I wouldn't suggest that the Senate has proportionally more gays than the general population.

Whatever. You wanted examples, you got them. The Samurai class was abolished about 100 years ago, and the Royal Navy is still in operation. I didn't invent the quote attributed to Churchill "Don't talk to me about naval tradition. It's nothing but rum, sodomy and the lash".

It doesn't seem to be a stretch of the imagination to understand the attraction of a lifestyle emphasising fitness and youth of the (predominantly male) body, as well as life in close quarters.

Also, overt homophobia and related punishment never prevented homosexual acts to take place. In fact, they can even be the expression of an ambiguous interest. Just check out how many anti-homo religious leaders got caught doing what the precisely condemned.

Entering the American Military can be extremely risky for homosexual males. I just don't see enough entering service to outweigh the percentage of gays in the general population. Maybe in other countries, I don't know.

I don't know if it was local or national news, about some gang hate criming a gay dude. And as part of them punishing him, they fucked him. WTF is up with that?? You're giving him what he wants and doing what you're saying you're against! It's preposterous beyond my comprehension!

I don't know if it was local or national news, about some gang hate criming a gay dude. And as part of them punishing him, they fucked him. WTF is up with that?? You're giving him what he wants and doing what you're saying you're against! It's preposterous beyond my comprehension!

Its actually not that uncommon. I believe it goes with the whole theory that most gay bashers are hating what they don't understand/what they really are.

I don't know if it was local or national news, about some gang hate criming a gay dude. And as part of them punishing him, they fucked him. WTF is up with that?? You're giving him what he wants and doing what you're saying you're against! It's preposterous beyond my comprehension!

Its actually not that uncommon. I believe it goes with the whole theory that most gay bashers are hating what they don't understand/what they really are.

I can get that. I've never heard of a story where they actually had sex with them though. it's usually just them beating them to death. maybe they all had sex with them and this was just the first one i heard it actually reported.

I don't know if it was local or national news, about some gang hate criming a gay dude. And as part of them punishing him, they fucked him. WTF is up with that?? You're giving him what he wants and doing what you're saying you're against! It's preposterous beyond my comprehension!

Its actually not that uncommon. I believe it goes with the whole theory that most gay bashers are hating what they don't understand/what they really are.

I can get that. I've never heard of a story where they actually had sex with them though. it's usually just them beating them to death. maybe they all had sex with them and this was just the first one i heard it actually reported.

More than that. One of my advisor was a Clinical psychologist in the Navy. He has seen tons of openly gay men in the military. San Diego/ Hillcrest is full of gay military men from Coronado or Camp Pendleton. It's not a joke.

San Diego/ Hillcrest is full of gay military men from Coronado or Camp Pendleton. It's not a joke.

Oh, I know. When you live in a gay enclave, you tend to forget that not everyone is gay. Totally happened to me when I lived in Hillcrest.

If you're hanging at Rich's, or Pecs, or the Brass Rail, or #1 On Fifth... and using the populace as your representative sample, your natural conclusion would have be that 99.9% +- .03% of all males are homosexual. I'm not a statistician, and you - as a scientist - know way better than I that it balances out when you a. look at a larger sample, and b. factor in standard deviation, n'est-ce pas?

I read somewhere (probably the WSJ) that the average cost of discharging a soldier under DADT is something like $64,000 a pop. Considering what a massive budget deficit we have, and how defense is the major contributor for it, that alone should be enough of an argument to get rid of DADT.

San Diego/ Hillcrest is full of gay military men from Coronado or Camp Pendleton. It's not a joke.

Oh, I know. When you live in a gay enclave, you tend to forget that not everyone is gay. Totally happened to me when I lived in Hillcrest.

If you're hanging at Rich's, or Pecs, or the Brass Rail, or #1 On Fifth... and using the populace as your representative sample, your natural conclusion would have be that 99.9% +- .03% of all males are homosexual. I'm not a statistician, and you - as a scientist - know way better than I that it balances out when you a. look at a larger sample, and b. factor in standard deviation, n'est-ce pas?

No tuffy, according to my advisor who was Navy psychologist, it's about 3/10. And these guys who are stationed here are lucky because the city is tolerant and they have Hillcrest where they can safely "come out."

I read somewhere (probably the WSJ) that the average cost of discharging a soldier under DADT is something like $64,000 a pop. Considering what a massive budget deficit we have, and how defense is the major contributor for it, that alone should be enough of an argument to get rid of DADT.

How in the world does it cost anything to fire someone, let alone 64 grand? Do they give them a 64 thousand dollar severance package or something? Because if they do, I'll join the army and then say I'm gay just to get the money.

I think I'm going to go to the Marine recruiting center in White Plains tomorrow to interview the servicemen and -women about DADT, then try to submit it to the Purchase magazine. I'm generally curious what they think, not that it will change my support for repealing DADT.

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