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It will be a lot better than SWTOR for sure, that can be seen easily from gameplay footage already, so it won´t fail as hard as SWTOR.

SWTOR was not made betting hard on KOTOR fans or Console players playing it. They were targeting the MMO market as a whole. TESO is not only betting on TES fans but also console players while making a game that isnt actually targeting either. They aren't even targeting the MMO market as a whole because of its centered design piece.

This isn't TES designed around an MMORPG world. This isn't an MMORPG designed around a world. Its a MMORPG world designed around centered PvP. The PvP is the focus, everything else is just fluff leading you there. And there isn't one of the three catagories that the game focuses on the majority of, TES player, Console player or MMORPG player that is PvP "focused".

Some TES players also play PvP based games. Some Console players play PvP based games (fewer play pay per month PvP games) and how many MMORPG players play PvP focused games?!? A small amount.

Now add in the fact that the TES games have far outsold the KOTOR games and you end up with a formula that points to TESO needing to far outperform SWTOR to not be seen as a failure. Anything less than 5 million in sales will be seen as a weakening of the IP and seeing as how the standalone games retain a million+ players for YEARS it will also need to retain a large amount of subscribers since its an MMO. There is more at stake with corporations making MMOs now, if they don't have a game that performs the entire company ends up taking a hit for it especially one like Zenimax whos board has been tossing around the idea of going public. They cant afford to have a poor performance right now.

I say Del or Altman will lose their position in less than a year after release with Dominguez being behind it since he is the money behind it all. The company has many power players in it and heads will roll with the game being so bad for the IP.

"People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

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For console ES fans this will be just like paying for DLC, which is usually $20. Every ES fan I know has all of skyrims DLC which is what, close to 6-7 months sub time, but for 10-15 hours of content each?

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Originally posted by Vutar

I hope every MMORPG made for consoles dies a horrible death, losses more money than any other games in history, and generally just sucks. Maybe then devs will stop trying to design derp fests that are completely designed for the lowest common denominator so that "hey we can put it on console!"

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Originally posted by Loktofeit

I am curious if Forbes is aware how much some of these blogs affect their brand simply because people consider them "a Forbes article". The name Forbes seems to give undue weight to what is basically just a blogger that happens to write on their site.

The Forbes name did affect my perspective significantly, and I'm forced into rethinking that position.

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You know what sucks about this. More people will read and comment on this thread than they did in the one where someone gave out good information in the game. The views on this thread already are twice what some of the others are which are based on game content.

This article was by someone who doesn't even play MMOs trying to tell us what will fail and their only reason - because its a sub game and SWTOR was also an MMO. Wow, what an uncanny resemblance. You going to tell me someone that hasn't played these games knows more about the players inside them than YOU or ME. If you have played MMOs for years you know a whole hell of a lot more about the people playing them than someone who just looks at a game box does. You've spent countless hours with them both the players and the games.

For those who go out of their way to have buddy conversations in the thread - every point that has been brought up and dismissed with evidence is all going to get squashed behind people chit chatting and artificially bumping the thread but burying relevant information. The cynic in me wonders if they are doing it on purpose because they don't use any snipping of the original posts, they just keep making long quotes to amuse themselves when they start jawjacking back and forth.

We really do need a comment + and - system on this forum to bump or push away posts because paging just hides things. Once something gets to over 10 pages only the strong will go through all 10 to pick out the goodies.

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Originally posted by Carl132p

Originally posted by Doogiehowser

Originally posted by Carl132pLeave it to mmorpg.com to be completely taken in by ESOs crap. Everyone who's played beta including myself know that the combat is GOD AWFUL and the quests aren't any good either. Those caves you love to explore in skyrim? full of turds running around slaying everything the second it spawns. The cool little mini stories that come with quests? not cool in the least, more annoying than anything.

So you are trying to tell us who haven't played the game that we should just take your word for it and start believing that game is awful?

Sorry but i like to make my own opinions and decisions. Obviously not everyone is going to like the game, which is expected and is a very natural thing. And i don't think you are in position to speak on behalf of 'every one' who has played the beta.

I AM in that position because NO ONE, who has experienced how poorly done the combat is, comes away saying man that was really well implemented. Your melee swings do as much damage as an auto attack in a normal mmo which leaves you sitting there stock still in front of a mob swinging away like an idiot because there is not point to moving around. Sometimes the mobs charge up a power attack and a big obvious box tells you to hit them, which causes a stun, then they sit there and get pummeled some more, but definitely don't die because your hits do nothing. Blocking doesn't actually block the attack, not only does the mob not respond to you blocking, you don't respond to you blocking and you take some damage for it. Whatever awesome combat the videos have lead you to believe is here is definitely not here, and again, the quests are shit. Have fun collecting ten more bear asses for the millionth time.

I really doubt you knew all the thousands of beta players on a personal level where they expressed their displeasure regarding combat with you. So like i said earlier you are not in a position to speak on their behalf.

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'-Jesse Schell

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Originally posted by greenreen

This article was by someone who doesn't even play MMOs trying to tell us what will fail and their only reason - because its a sub game and SWTOR was also an MMO. Wow, what an uncanny resemblance. You going to tell me someone that hasn't played these games knows more about the players inside them than YOU or ME.

Thanks for the typical post by those defending the game. Toss out everything you cant refute and focus on one small part of it you can.

Not once has anyone defending this game pointed to one thing in the game that is remotely innovative. Its just another MMORPG that brings nothing new to the genre other than its a new MMO, the very thing that has caused so many games to fail over the last 7 years.

"People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

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Well it just goes to show that Forbes will let almost anyone right for them these days. I say that as someone who is NOT expecting great things out of ESO. However almost all of this guys conclusions are off base and nothing more then trying to project his own personal preferences onto the entire hobby as a whole.

The only well founded point he had was concerns about the size of the budget (if the unsubstantiated rumor was true). Concerns about a bloated budget are a valid from a financial standpoint because it raises the bar on what the game has to get in returns in order to have been considered a worthwhile project. Leaving aside any considerations of whether it was a good or bad game, that's why TOR was considered such a disaster for EA because with such a hugely bloated budget, far beyond any previous MMO, it really did need to get the sort of subscription base to rival WoW to be worth the investment in it. Had TOR been built for 30 million instead, no would have really considered it much of a cautionary tale from a financial standpoint.

Console gamers have nothing to do with it. The MMO gamer pre-ordered their game, paid extra to play it before it was released, shelled out for the CE, and agreed to a monthly fee. To add insult to injury, they willing paid for the expansions, too.The MMO gamer has time and again told the industry "I have no familiarity with history, no concept of the difference between hope and reality, and absolutely no end to my wallet if you tell me over and over the words that I want to hear - that the game is made for me, that the features will revolutionize gaming, and that it is all based on my personal feedback."After all, that is exactly how the past three years of MMOs have been sold, and it is the entire sales pitch for the Steam Early Access games, all of which start with "get involved with this game as it develops." Why? Because the buying patterns of the PC gamer have proven for well over a decade that there's money in doing it.

But it's 100% the devs fault. They should be better people and just know the customer has no self control.

Why?

Do you really think Damonvile was serious, lizard? ;)

Argh. I cannot keep up with the people who are always being serious and saying what they mean from the people who always use satire or the people who are always sarcastic. It's too much. So, how about that Encyclopedia Brown? I think his most awesome case was witnessing a schoolyard fight in 4th grade and staying calm enough to notice that the boy who got punched in the chest didn't get his glasses broken, thus Solving The Case!

There was one about a Civil War sword that blew my mind because the answer was obvious and I completely missed it.

I thought that about every single case I didn't solve myself. Of course, I also cheated and read the books in the library, and when it came time to solve the case in class, I already knew the answers. :-)

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Originally posted by JJ82

Originally posted by greenreen

This article was by someone who doesn't even play MMOs trying to tell us what will fail and their only reason - because its a sub game and SWTOR was also an MMO. Wow, what an uncanny resemblance. You going to tell me someone that hasn't played these games knows more about the players inside them than YOU or ME.

Thanks for the typical post by those defending the game. Toss out everything you cant refute and focus on one small part of it you can.

Not once has anyone defending this game pointed to one thing in the game that is remotely innovative. Its just another MMORPG that brings nothing new to the genre other than its a new MMO, the very thing that has caused so many games to fail over the last 7 years.

Go look at what I typed earlier in the thread - I've given plenty of reasons why this game has it going on. You picked the wrong poster to accuse of not leaving evidence behind.

Oh, don't want to be bothered to read all 13 pages, then you just reinforce exactly what I said, we need a damn rating system on these comments so that ones related to the topic can be top of mind instead of buried by doom or bromance comments.

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Originally posted by JJ82

Originally posted by greenreen

This article was by someone who doesn't even play MMOs trying to tell us what will fail and their only reason - because its a sub game and SWTOR was also an MMO. Wow, what an uncanny resemblance. You going to tell me someone that hasn't played these games knows more about the players inside them than YOU or ME.

Thanks for the typical post by those defending the game. Toss out everything you cant refute and focus on one small part of it you can.

Not once has anyone defending this game pointed to one thing in the game that is remotely innovative. Its just another MMORPG that brings nothing new to the genre other than its a new MMO, the very thing that has caused so many games to fail over the last 7 years.

I know of one. You get to play in Tamriel. That should be more than enough for the remaining players this game will have. Much like SWTOR. People living out their fantasies fighting with lightsabers.

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Originally posted by Anireth

Originally posted by Rylah

But more importantly it seems that this person didn't get the meaning of "F2P", which means that you either pay or grind your ass off and are STILL excluded from certain "premiums". Everybody seriously playing will anyways get the item-shop equivalent of a subscription and if such a thing is not available then the combined cost of things you buy in the mall is usually equal or even exceeds a subscription fee.

Thats not true at all. The better F2P games, like DDO or Vindictus allow "serious" playing them without spending much or even any money. In DDO you might want to buy some of the bigger packs, but if you like to play several characters etc., you'll earn enough points without even trying. In Vindictus, you only get an actual advantage if you sell NX for gold, and that is just taking trading to another level with the way it works.

You may also not have noticed that most P2P games do not cover everything with the subscription fees. It starts with the game itself, continues with every expansion, and they still have a cash shop that sells everything from costums over exp-buffs to unique mounts.

"Not true at all" is not true at all. Of course I didn't mention ALL f2p models, otherwise this would have been a veritable booklet. There are some games with a payment model which isn't flat in the face nagging, bitching and excluding like SWTOR. My favourite example here is TSW. They make you want to buy the issues with good stories and the rest is fluff, even the xp, ap whatever boosters, since the game is in no way competitive.

The second point might be that we have a differing interpretation of "serious gaming".

Of course I have noticed that a couple of subscription games (P2P is misleading) try to get additional return on their investment with cash shops and I find that quite apalling. It just looks greedy and should - if they really HAVE to introduce idiotic items like sunshades and bikinis into a high fantasy game - be craftable or otherwise obtainable ingame.

But all this is beside the point of the OP. TESO will not fail because of subscription models or whatever, but only if it is a bad game (which I don't know). And it will be successful when the players feel they get their money value back in entertainment.

The best thing about subscriptions though is for me that it keeps a lot of people out of a game I never ever wanted to play with in the first place. Which is mostly but not exclusively the self entitled crowd who cannot understand that making games is an expensive business and not a thing created for their free and unlimited leisure and where the developers and producers better jump at their tiniest whim.

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Originally posted by greenreen

Originally posted by JJ82

Originally posted by greenreen

This article was by someone who doesn't even play MMOs trying to tell us what will fail and their only reason - because its a sub game and SWTOR was also an MMO. Wow, what an uncanny resemblance. You going to tell me someone that hasn't played these games knows more about the players inside them than YOU or ME.

Thanks for the typical post by those defending the game. Toss out everything you cant refute and focus on one small part of it you can.

Not once has anyone defending this game pointed to one thing in the game that is remotely innovative. Its just another MMORPG that brings nothing new to the genre other than its a new MMO, the very thing that has caused so many games to fail over the last 7 years.

Go look at what I typed earlier in the thread - I've given plenty of reasons why this game has it going on. You picked the wrong poster to accuse of not leaving evidence behind.

Oh, don't want to be bothered to read all 13 pages, then you just reinforce exactly what I said, we need a damn rating system on these comments so that ones related to the topic can be top of mind instead of buried by doom or bromance comments.

You did not give a single innovative thing about this game. Once again, reinforcing what I said. We don't have a rating system because of posters like you. Fanboys will really shutdown the forums then with their group mentality of "they must saying only good things or attack attack attack".

"People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

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I know of one. You get to play in Tamriel. That should be more than enough for the remaining players this game will have. Much like SWTOR. People living out their fantasies fighting with lightsabers.

A setting is not innovation nor does it retain a large amount of players, every single game that failed is an example of that. the fact you used that as your example shows how little the game is bringing to the genre.

"People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

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I know of one. You get to play in Tamriel. That should be more than enough for the remaining players this game will have. Much like SWTOR. People living out their fantasies fighting with lightsabers.

A setting is not innovation nor does it retain a large amount of players, every single game that failed is an example of that. the fact you used that as your example shows how little the game is bringing to the genre.

On this scale for the IP, I would argue that maybe it is. Also I was only giving one reason that might be good in making this title not fail completely.

You say "large amount of players". I believe the game doesn't need nor will it have a large amount of players.

I'm saying that the people who will stick with the game will do so thanks to the setting. Not thanks to any innovation. Which indeed I've seen none of to write home about.

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Originally posted by JJ82

Originally posted by greenreen

Originally posted by JJ82

Originally posted by greenreen

This article was by someone who doesn't even play MMOs trying to tell us what will fail and their only reason - because its a sub game and SWTOR was also an MMO. Wow, what an uncanny resemblance. You going to tell me someone that hasn't played these games knows more about the players inside them than YOU or ME.

Thanks for the typical post by those defending the game. Toss out everything you cant refute and focus on one small part of it you can.

Not once has anyone defending this game pointed to one thing in the game that is remotely innovative. Its just another MMORPG that brings nothing new to the genre other than its a new MMO, the very thing that has caused so many games to fail over the last 7 years.

Go look at what I typed earlier in the thread - I've given plenty of reasons why this game has it going on. You picked the wrong poster to accuse of not leaving evidence behind.

Oh, don't want to be bothered to read all 13 pages, then you just reinforce exactly what I said, we need a damn rating system on these comments so that ones related to the topic can be top of mind instead of buried by doom or bromance comments.

You did not give a single innovative thing about this game. Once again, reinforcing what I said. We don't have a rating system because of posters like you. Fanboys will really shutdown the forums then with their group mentality of "they must saying only good things or attack attack attack".

Hold still. Take this slower. I said this game was doing innovative things? Don't put words in my mouth. You quoted me using innovative. It wasn't my claim.

I said it was doing things better than another game with some of the same core in PVP.

I also compared the strength of the IP having just come off a high of 20 million sold as compared to Star Wars coming off a failed MMO with Galaxies, the two are not in the same lifecycle. This IP is on a high tide, not on a low swing. It hasn't closed down one version of its MMO because it failed to satisfy players and made changes they didn't like until they left then finally shut down the game to build a new one. Direct comparison of the two IPs is foolish. I gave links to funding showing that the company is not in a state to be ashamed of monies spent because it has monies earned. Those comments are directly related to the Forbes article proving that the forecaster made no effort to be aware of gaming at all - only looked at two games and said - must be the same. Why oh why didn't they choose to compare the game to WOW which is also a sub game - ahhhh because of free to play. Their genuine reason for an opinion. See beyond the word to the heart. This person is convinced a sub game can't succeed, that's all it is.

Another post someone complained that combat was not the same as their other game. I suggested to them that yes, the game is going to be different. It's based on Skyrim combat - even the game devs themselves say the game won't be for everyone. Is that innovation if people don't find it familiar?

If you want to know what they have that's innovative. I would say the user interface is improved in some ways starting with Skyrim. It's not all over the screen. There is less of it. One of the biggest problems I have in any MMO is - where do I put the chat - I've got not place for it because of all my other UI elements !

How about that every player in the game can stealth. It's not a skill relegated only to a class or race. Every single player can stealth.

No more cooldowns on skills. That may not be innovative but it's certainly rare. Same with gear - you can wear any type of gear you want. If you want to wear heavy armor and use magic - no one is stopping you. Like anything there are tradeoffs or else there wouldn't be different gear types at all.

Their auctioning system is going to be unique - it's not global and is more reminiscent of older games and frankly scares the crap out of me. I deal in the markets a lot but what if I don't fit in with a popular guild and what if I have to spam chat to sell goods etc.

But I know one thing - with a sub game I will have a voice, I can make comments on the forum and ask for improvements and they might just implement them.

I haven't read two tons on the game yet but less than a few weeks of playing Skyrim I noticed that this game was not cookie cutter. The controls are a little different and they do favor a key press tactic of a clicker but they also conform to clicking. Now, are these controls innovation or not - guess that's for you to decide.

I would not call what I've seen the same old same old. It has some re-used concepts but it is trying other things.

I would not count this horse out of the race especially with a weak argument like - it's a sub game.

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Thanks for the typical post by those defending the game. Toss out everything you cant refute and focus on one small part of it you can.

Not once has anyone defending this game pointed to one thing in the game that is remotely innovative. Its just another MMORPG that brings nothing new to the genre other than its a new MMO, the very thing that has caused so many games to fail over the last 7 years.

Go look at what I typed earlier in the thread - I've given plenty of reasons why this game has it going on. You picked the wrong poster to accuse of not leaving evidence behind.

Oh, don't want to be bothered to read all 13 pages, then you just reinforce exactly what I said, we need a damn rating system on these comments so that ones related to the topic can be top of mind instead of buried by doom or bromance comments.

You did not give a single innovative thing about this game. Once again, reinforcing what I said. We don't have a rating system because of posters like you. Fanboys will really shutdown the forums then with their group mentality of "they must saying only good things or attack attack attack".

Hold still. Take this slower. I said this game was doing innovative things? Don't put words in my mouth. You quoted me using innovative. It wasn't my claim.

You replied to my post stating that no one defending the game pointed to one thing innovative with a response that states that I need to read your previous replies........So now you are taking the next typical step of those defending this game, arguing to argue.

You had no reason to even reply to me since you are not actually targeting anything I am saying.

But its nice to see you are admitting the game isn't bringing anything new or advancing the genre at all, that its just another MMORPG clone.

"People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

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I know of one. You get to play in Tamriel. That should be more than enough for the remaining players this game will have. Much like SWTOR. People living out their fantasies fighting with lightsabers.

A setting is not innovation nor does it retain a large amount of players, every single game that failed is an example of that. the fact you used that as your example shows how little the game is bringing to the genre.

I haven't played it yet, but from some of what I'm hearing there are things like block not RNG, based on what I'm seeing. There are skills, but it sounds like you need to physically block them. Not ground-breaking, but not entirely uninnovative.