Are you people serious...? Rogue burst easily rivals rets, warriors and hunters. I've been dropped by a rogue through defensive stance, shield wall and second wind in under 3 seconds from 70%-0.

Burst is NOT the problem with rogues. Mobility is. Retarded amount of set up is. Survivability MIGHT be. But NOT burst.

I mean, that's a fair point. But you gotta realize that because of the other huge problems - like mobility and setup - being able to line up that kind of burst is insane, and usually, you'll dance to force cooldowns even if you don't have everything lined up. This will make those dances even less effective.

The main point is that rogues need a good burst window - and when they don't have it - due to either mobility, set-up, or trinket nerfs, it makes them pretty useless.

Very funny. The blind 90 second and vanish 120 second changes were huge "unnerfs", but the net effect is still a buff. The shuriken throw change was also a definite buff in pvp.

OP, I was talking about this with one of my arena partners yesterday, and we think that overall, this is a buff to rogues and rogue teams. It is true that our kill cycle will be less potent, but the thing where EVERYONE'S kill cycle is less potent is likely the bigger deal. The only situation where this is dubious is solo pvp, and honestly a pve trinket might be a better call during some of those even before this nerf.

We'll see. I could be mistaken, but it really seems that taking bonus agility away from shadow blades is going to hurt us less than taking bonus strength away from skull banner / recklessness.

This has literally nothing to do with rogues. Also consider Trinket is now useable on every shadow dance.

Trinket is now useable on every shadow dance.

This is so big for us. Unless you were using every CD at the beginning of a fight hoping for a kill (and then dying if you failed to land a kill), this is so great. We become deadly swap machines every dance.

Very funny. The blind 90 second and vanish 120 second changes were huge "unnerfs", but the net effect is still a buff. The shuriken throw change was also a definite buff in pvp.

OP, I was talking about this with one of my arena partners yesterday, and we think that overall, this is a buff to rogues and rogue teams. It is true that our kill cycle will be less potent, but the thing where EVERYONE'S kill cycle is less potent is likely the bigger deal. The only situation where this is dubious is solo pvp, and honestly a pve trinket might be a better call during some of those even before this nerf.

We'll see. I could be mistaken, but it really seems that taking bonus agility away from shadow blades is going to hurt us less than taking bonus strength away from skull banner / recklessness.

In absolute terms, maybe, but if rogues don't have the burst to force a CD in a dance, then it really doesn't matter and it becomes a de facto nerf. EVERYONE's kill cycle will still be more potent than yours.

In absolute terms, maybe, but if rogues don't have the burst to force a CD in a dance, then it really doesn't matter and it becomes a de facto nerf. EVERYONE's kill cycle will still be more potent than yours.

I almost always get at least one CD from dance, though I need more than just that if my partner is controlled.

---------- Post added 2012-12-07 at 07:09 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Notos

While yes this will affect rogues more than other classes which rely on burst, saying "50% nerf" is flat out misleading.

Why do you think it would affect rogues more?

So during a warrior burst cycle, they enjoy a huge critical strike chance from recklessness. They also enjoy a huge critical DAMAGE buff from skull banner. So while their normal attack might have looked like, 15% 2x crit chance, 85% normal hit chance, for damage of 1.15 times strength, during reck they'll have like 65% 2.2x crit chance, 35% normal hit chance, for damage of 1.78 times strength. This means strength is about 50% better during that cooldown stack than normal.

It just seems to me like this will hurt classes that stack stuff up like that MORE than it will hurt rogues.

So during a warrior burst cycle, they enjoy a huge critical strike chance from recklessness. They also enjoy a huge critical DAMAGE buff from skull banner. So while their normal attack might have looked like, 15% 2x crit chance, 85% normal hit chance, for damage of 1.15 times strength, during reck they'll have like 65% 2.2x crit chance, 35% normal hit chance, for damage of 1.78 times strength. This means strength is about 50% better during that cooldown stack than normal.

It just seems to me like this will hurt classes that stack stuff up like that MORE than it will hurt rogues.

So, let's say a warrior can crit for 200k, but 40k of that is from the trinket. That's a 25% dps gain. Let's say a rogue can crit for 100k, but 20k of that is from the trinket. That's a 25% dps gain.

So now the rogue is crit'ing for 90k, and the warrior is critting for 180k. The rogue is less likely to force a CD than before. The warrior is equally likely. There are some ephemeral breakpoints in there where the amount of damage dished will or won't force a certain response, which will translate into an advantage.

I almost always get at least one CD from dance, though I need more than just that if my partner is controlled.

---------- Post added 2012-12-07 at 07:09 PM ----------

Why do you think it would affect rogues more?

So during a warrior burst cycle, they enjoy a huge critical strike chance from recklessness. They also enjoy a huge critical DAMAGE buff from skull banner. So while their normal attack might have looked like, 15% 2x crit chance, 85% normal hit chance, for damage of 1.15 times strength, during reck they'll have like 65% 2.2x crit chance, 35% normal hit chance, for damage of 1.78 times strength. This means strength is about 50% better during that cooldown stack than normal.

It just seems to me like this will hurt classes that stack stuff up like that MORE than it will hurt rogues.

Gotta agree with Verain on these issues. (Not trying to boost up your ego or anything) I think Verain's summaries have previously summed up what is inherently wrong with the rogue class, without relying on hyperbole, sensationalism or grabs for attention. While this change hits Rogues, I dont think it necessarily hits us as hard as some people are making it out...

---------- Post added 2012-12-07 at 07:36 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Stede

So, let's say a warrior can crit for 200k, but 40k of that is from the trinket. That's a 25% dps gain. Let's say a rogue can crit for 100k, but 20k of that is from the trinket. That's a 25% dps gain.

So now the rogue is crit'ing for 90k, and the warrior is critting for 180k. The rogue is less likely to force a CD than before. The warrior is equally likely. There are some ephemeral breakpoints in there where the amount of damage dished will or won't force a certain response, which will translate into an advantage.

I guess that's the best way I can explain it.

Ok, that's the best explanation I've seen supplied so far. I can see your points, but I'm not sure that keeping the trinkets in their current state is the solution. Obviously we would hope they would still balance Warrior CD-stacking and other classes as well, although it is likely they won't get to that until a later patch.

As an aside, I can't remember the last time I critted for anywhere close to 90k in PVP on my rogue.

I know people get heated about pvp, and burst damage (particularly rogues' and other current classes) is a sensitive subject, but COOL IT.

We're edging on trolling and flaming. Keep posts constructive and on topic, eh?

Personally I suspect this will be a net nerf for pvp rogues, since lack of burst, while not the prime issue, has been talked about, although giving sub the 1-minute proc for every SD is a plus. Assass/Combat will be hurting when it comes to trying to finish someone off. Other classes are seeing a bigger numerical nerf, but I think their burst is still quite dangerous without a trinket buffing it. Verain and Stede's last comments seem on to me.

it's not that bad. granted i've only run 1 bg since the trinket change but i still topped the charts in damage on my rogue...i also have the engineering glove enchant though so now i'm doing pretty decent consistent damage. as soon as trinket's gone, use glove enchant, when that's gone. almost time for another dance and trinket. =)

Heres another angle on this, Most pvpers are engineers which means the first dance got 5105 agi and then next 1920 then 5105 again. First this change hurts engineering for pvp, second it isn't really a boost getting the 2553 every dance when you had 5105 agi or 1920 agi before

Because the only source of damage you have is from that trinket right? It's a buff for rogues because you can use it with every shadow dance.

Yes, the only source of burst we have comes from trinkets. The Rogue class is the least bursty as well as the least mobile class in the game.

Shadow Dance is an ability of the Sub spec, which nobody uses for anything as it is inferior in both PvP and PvE. Assassination and Combat have got no Shadow Dance.

And no, it is not a buff for Rogues because it reduces our burst by 50%. We now get 50% less agility per activation.

NINJA TURTLES as the next playable WoW race/class combo. WoW has got Kung Fu Pandas, Pokemon and recently even Transformers in it, so I don't see how Ninja Turtles would be any less pathetic than current "WoW" is.