SordidEuphemism:dwrash: Lets see, RCC has pretty much integrated every native religion it possibly could as it spread... hence it has many sects of made up shiat, and the every present cult of Mary (which was based on Artimis that was granted perpetual virginity after she gave birth.. sound familiar?) Then you have all the praying to the saints and such (which is just a continuation of the Roman Pantheon of Gods.. just the names of changed).. then you have the fact that they seem to think that when you go to heaven you aren't human anymore and you become part of the devine.. (I guess its how Mary does her multitasking at the speed of the fastest computer in the world now).. etc. Then you have the black, brown, white, arian, etc Mary's and baby Jesus (I guess it depends on whereever you are born).. then you have transubstiation in which they crucify Jesus again and cannibalize him...etc. The RCC is WAY out there.

Read the catechism? Nah. I'll just base my understanding of Catholicism on the fringe elements I've read about online.

Dude, none of that is fringe, it's just the official church answer to questions most believers try to never ask.

I'm not going to claim it's worse than scientology, but the symbolic cannibalism is mainstream dogma, it just seems mean because I'm using a word you don't like to describe it.

TheBigJerk:SordidEuphemism: dwrash: Lets see, RCC has pretty much integrated every native religion it possibly could as it spread... hence it has many sects of made up shiat, and the every present cult of Mary (which was based on Artimis that was granted perpetual virginity after she gave birth.. sound familiar?) Then you have all the praying to the saints and such (which is just a continuation of the Roman Pantheon of Gods.. just the names of changed).. then you have the fact that they seem to think that when you go to heaven you aren't human anymore and you become part of the devine.. (I guess its how Mary does her multitasking at the speed of the fastest computer in the world now).. etc. Then you have the black, brown, white, arian, etc Mary's and baby Jesus (I guess it depends on whereever you are born).. then you have transubstiation in which they crucify Jesus again and cannibalize him...etc. The RCC is WAY out there.

Read the catechism? Nah. I'll just base my understanding of Catholicism on the fringe elements I've read about online.

Dude, none of that is fringe, it's just the official church answer to questions most believers try to never ask.

I'm not going to claim it's worse than scientology, but the symbolic cannibalism is mainstream dogma, it just seems mean because I'm using a word you don't like to describe it.

I'm not denying transubstantiation is a teaching, so my apologies if it seems so. I was not addressing that item specifically, but instead referring to many of the other items which are vanities embraced by sects or splinters. When someone says 'RCC' they should really limit themselves to the official doctrine.

Multi-ethnic Jebus: Not an official teaching. Saints are gods: Not an official teaching - they are intermediaries and speak to the head honcho on the faithful's behalf. Any miracles a saint works is through the divine power granted from god. Splitting hairs? Perhaps, but the church is rather rabid about this. Cult of Mary: Mary is recognized as the mother of god in the Catholic church, but is otherwise a super-saint. Becoming divine upon entering heaven is also not taught, indeed, the faithful are told their bodies will be given back to them, perfected, at the end of the world.

And so on, and so forth. Me, I don't put any weight to any of this, but it doesn't really help one's argument to cover it in inaccuracies. This is why you won't see me discussing the fallacies of Buddhism -- I'm not knowledgable.

You can go to thirty different ones across the entire nation and though while technically you are getting the same burger, in each one its going to be just a little different. The parish model was the worlds first franchise operation.

Head_Shot:Magorn: dwrash: Head_Shot: dwrash: As with all Cathlolics... they exist in a state of self dilusion that what they are doing is what God wants them to... they couldn't be more wrong.

THIS....BUT APPLIES TO ALL RELIGIONS

Pretty much.. but the RCC is at the apex of totally made up shiat.

Please, son you ever taken a course in comparative religion? Scientology has that prize locked the fark down, followed by Mormonsim (since DNA kinda disproves its central thesis) , then we have any number of cargo Cults, the Cult of St. Narco, followed by Druid and Wicca" (love you guys but ain;t a damn thing historical about either one), Then you got to get by LaVey's Church of Satan, and Free Masonry before you get into a three way tie between Hindusm/Buddhism/and Catholicism

Where does the Church of the SubGenuis fit in?

The One True and revealed Church of Bob on Earth? It's either them or the schismatics from the Church of the Holy Farking Shiat.

RexTalionis:Technically, wouldn't he be a cleric as opposed to a wizard?

Yeah, he'd be a high-level Cleric.

I think they implied in some AD&D 2e sources that the Catholic Pope and the Patriarch of Constantinople would usually be equivalent somewhere around a 13th to 15th level Cleric (The Castle Guide, and some of the Historic Reference series), which generally fit with how powerful and rare characters of those levels were supposed to be in 1e and 2e AD&D (15th level druid was the leader of all the Druids in the world, the leader of all Assassins was 15th level, and Monks had a single 17th level Monk as the highest level one in the world).

In any case, if he's high enough to do an exorcism, he's got to be at least 9th level, since Dispel Evil (the spell that is the equivalent of an Exorcism, since it can force out possessing spirits and banish demons & devils) is a 5th level spell and from 1st through 3.5 editions that comes at 9th level. Then again, 9th level was usually the threshold for being a Bishop (according to those same above-mentioned sources).

TheBigJerk:Magorn: dwrash: Head_Shot: dwrash: As with all Cathlolics... they exist in a state of self dilusion that what they are doing is what God wants them to... they couldn't be more wrong.

THIS....BUT APPLIES TO ALL RELIGIONS

Pretty much.. but the RCC is at the apex of totally made up shiat.

Please, son you ever taken a course in comparative religion? Scientology has that prize locked the fark down, followed by Mormonsim (since DNA kinda disproves its central thesis) , then we have any number of cargo Cults, the Cult of St. Narco, followed by Druid and Wicca" (love you guys but ain;t a damn thing historical about either one), Then you got to get by LaVey's Church of Satan, and Free Masonry before you get into a three way tie between Hindusm/Buddhism/and Catholicism

It's as historical as Catholicism. Just because the RCC's made-up stuff is OLD and was written-down for longer doesn't make it any less made up or any more historical than the made-up stuff now or any better than the stuff that had to be pieced back together from what the RCC hadn't burned and purged.

Made up, is arguable, but Historical? By simple virtue of the fact that they've been in operation for 2000 years, they do get to claim their traditions are, by defintion, historical. And as people have pointed out, early catholicism was a great preserver of ancient pagan traditions that stretch back millenia before that) Modern WIcca and druidism stretch back only to the beginning of the 20th century when some folks with a heavily romanticized view of history tried to 're-create" the ancient religions according to their modern sensibilites. Catholicism, while is certainly revises itself, does maintain ancient beliefs that would have seemed perfectly rational to a citizen of the roman empire circa 100 ad or so, but rather wig us out today (transubstantiation for one)

Magorn:TheBigJerk: Magorn: dwrash: Head_Shot: dwrash: As with all Cathlolics... they exist in a state of self dilusion that what they are doing is what God wants them to... they couldn't be more wrong.

THIS....BUT APPLIES TO ALL RELIGIONS

Pretty much.. but the RCC is at the apex of totally made up shiat.

Please, son you ever taken a course in comparative religion? Scientology has that prize locked the fark down, followed by Mormonsim (since DNA kinda disproves its central thesis) , then we have any number of cargo Cults, the Cult of St. Narco, followed by Druid and Wicca" (love you guys but ain;t a damn thing historical about either one), Then you got to get by LaVey's Church of Satan, and Free Masonry before you get into a three way tie between Hindusm/Buddhism/and Catholicism

It's as historical as Catholicism. Just because the RCC's made-up stuff is OLD and was written-down for longer doesn't make it any less made up or any more historical than the made-up stuff now or any better than the stuff that had to be pieced back together from what the RCC hadn't burned and purged.

Made up, is arguable, but Historical? By simple virtue of the fact that they've been in operation for 2000 years, they do get to claim their traditions are, by defintion, historical. And as people have pointed out, early catholicism was a great preserver of ancient pagan traditions that stretch back millenia before that) Modern WIcca and druidism stretch back only to the beginning of the 20th century when some folks with a heavily romanticized view of history tried to 're-create" the ancient religions according to their modern sensibilites. Catholicism, while is certainly revises itself, does maintain ancient beliefs that would have seemed perfectly rational to a citizen of the roman empire circa 100 ad or so, but rather wig us out today (transubstantiation for one)

To be fair, transubtstantiation wigged out the Romans too. Hence the feeding of members of the cannibal cult to lions.

Magorn:Made up, is arguable, but Historical? By simple virtue of the fact that they've been in operation for 2000 years, they do get to claim their traditions are, by defintion, historical. And as people have pointed out, early catholicism was a great preserver of ancient pagan traditions that stretch back millenia before that) Modern WIcca and druidism stretch back only to the beginning of the 20th century when some folks with a heavily romanticized view of history tried to 're-create" the ancient religions according to their modern sensibilites. Catholicism, while is certainly revises itself, does maintain ancient beliefs that would have seemed perfectly rational to a citizen of the roman empire circa 100 ad or so, but rather wig us out today (transubstantiation for one)

Uh-huh, so because Catholicism is younger (but doesn't have a gap) and because it's ancient traditions are creepier to today's sensibilities than the ancient traditions resurrected by the older (but with a big gap) pagan religions...Catholicism has more gravitas? And let's be fair here, I'm pretty sure the Romans were creeped out by symbolic cannibalism too.

This is like that time I was trying to get a straight answer out of this guy called "nimbo1" who claimed that Protestants were WRONG because they were new and made-up, but Judaism (which was older) was WRONG because they'd lost their way, somehow.

UrukHaiGuyz:Magorn: TheBigJerk: Magorn: dwrash: Head_Shot: dwrash: As with all Cathlolics... they exist in a state of self dilusion that what they are doing is what God wants them to... they couldn't be more wrong.

THIS....BUT APPLIES TO ALL RELIGIONS

Pretty much.. but the RCC is at the apex of totally made up shiat.

Please, son you ever taken a course in comparative religion? Scientology has that prize locked the fark down, followed by Mormonsim (since DNA kinda disproves its central thesis) , then we have any number of cargo Cults, the Cult of St. Narco, followed by Druid and Wicca" (love you guys but ain;t a damn thing historical about either one), Then you got to get by LaVey's Church of Satan, and Free Masonry before you get into a three way tie between Hindusm/Buddhism/and Catholicism

It's as historical as Catholicism. Just because the RCC's made-up stuff is OLD and was written-down for longer doesn't make it any less made up or any more historical than the made-up stuff now or any better than the stuff that had to be pieced back together from what the RCC hadn't burned and purged.

Made up, is arguable, but Historical? By simple virtue of the fact that they've been in operation for 2000 years, they do get to claim their traditions are, by defintion, historical. And as people have pointed out, early catholicism was a great preserver of ancient pagan traditions that stretch back millenia before that) Modern WIcca and druidism stretch back only to the beginning of the 20th century when some folks with a heavily romanticized view of history tried to 're-create" the ancient religions according to their modern sensibilites. Catholicism, while is certainly revises itself, does maintain ancient beliefs that would have seemed perfectly rational to a citizen of the roman empire circa 100 ad or so, but rather wig us out today (transubstantiation for one)

To be fair, transubtstantiation wigged out the Romans too. Hence the feeding of members of the cannibal cult to li ...

Hey, just because some watery tart lobbed a scimitar at you is no basis for a form of governance!

Here's the thing about Mary-worshippers, so you've got your "history" involving Jesus and saints and miracles as True Facts™ and you've got your "It's my faith and I believe it so you have to respect that"™ arguments and that's fine. I may not particularly RESPECT it but I can let it slide. It's a faith. Live and let live until you're starting trouble (again). My snidery will be low-key.

That same rule has to apply to the scilons, the modern witches, the "Islam was practiced by Adam and Eve" (no really, Muslims believe that) gang and the reptile people. Your god is old? Her goddess is older. You make fun of their religion for changing over time with "revealed" whatzits? Same applies to praying to the holy dragon.

Silverstaff:In any case, if he's high enough to do an exorcism, he's got to be at least 9th level, since Dispel Evil (the spell that is the equivalent of an Exorcism, since it can force out possessing spirits and banish demons & devils) is a 5th level spell and from 1st through 3.5 editions that comes at 9th level. Then again, 9th level was usually the threshold for being a Bishop (according to those same above-mentioned sources).

Catholic exorcism generally requires approval by a bishop, so that's more or less consistent.

Magorn:dwrash: Head_Shot: dwrash: As with all Cathlolics... they exist in a state of self dilusion that what they are doing is what God wants them to... they couldn't be more wrong.

THIS....BUT APPLIES TO ALL RELIGIONS

Pretty much.. but the RCC is at the apex of totally made up shiat.

Please, son you ever taken a course in comparative religion? Scientology has that prize locked the fark down, followed by Mormonsim (since DNA kinda disproves its central thesis) , then we have any number of cargo Cults, the Cult of St. Narco, followed by Druid and Wicca" (love you guys but ain;t a damn thing historical about either one), Then you got to get by LaVey's Church of Satan, and Free Masonry before you get into a three way tie between Hindusm/Buddhism/and Catholicism

This post is fair neither to cargo cults, nor to LaVeyan Satansim.

1) Cargo cults were based on actual observed phenomena, unlike other religions, which consist entirely in made up bullsh*t. Maybe the primitive islanders got it wrong, but they sure as hell looked up in the sky and saw giant f*cking birds dropping valuable loot out of the sky. Please don't insult these primitive empiricists by comparing them to other religionists. They had a real foundation for their beliefs.

2) In his Satanic Bible, LaVey admits straight up that his "religion" is bullsh*t, consisting in silly rituals aimed at fooling stupid people into giving away sex and money. He might be prosecuted for fraud, but it's pretty hard to make that case when his "Bible" says straight up there is no God or devil, and that his "spells," if they have any effects at all, have only psychological effects. Please don't insult this honest man by comparing him with the hucksters from other religions who've perpetrated actual fraud on countless millions throughout world history.

Magorn:dwrash: Head_Shot: dwrash: As with all Cathlolics... they exist in a state of self dilusion that what they are doing is what God wants them to... they couldn't be more wrong.

THIS....BUT APPLIES TO ALL RELIGIONS

Pretty much.. but the RCC is at the apex of totally made up shiat.

Please, son you ever taken a course in comparative religion? Scientology has that prize locked the fark down, followed by Mormonsim (since DNA kinda disproves its central thesis) , then we have any number of cargo Cults, the Cult of St. Narco, followed by Druid and Wicca" (love you guys but ain;t a damn thing historical about either one), Then you got to get by LaVey's Church of Satan, and Free Masonry before you get into a three way tie between Hindusm/Buddhism/and Catholicism

Minor point: the Pacific cargo cults were worshiping actual tangible beings; of all the religions on your list, theirs had the best chance of getting what they prayed for...and actually succeeded, in some cases, albeit by accident rather than prayer.

Last Man on Earth:Magorn: dwrash: Head_Shot: dwrash: As with all Cathlolics... they exist in a state of self dilusion that what they are doing is what God wants them to... they couldn't be more wrong.

THIS....BUT APPLIES TO ALL RELIGIONS

Pretty much.. but the RCC is at the apex of totally made up shiat.

Please, son you ever taken a course in comparative religion? Scientology has that prize locked the fark down, followed by Mormonsim (since DNA kinda disproves its central thesis) , then we have any number of cargo Cults, the Cult of St. Narco, followed by Druid and Wicca" (love you guys but ain;t a damn thing historical about either one), Then you got to get by LaVey's Church of Satan, and Free Masonry before you get into a three way tie between Hindusm/Buddhism/and Catholicism

Cargo cults shouldn't even place. Yes, they're an extremely strange justification, but at least the phenomenon they're trying to justify actually exists and is observable. That alone puts them above most other groups.

PunGent:Magorn: dwrash: Head_Shot: dwrash: As with all Cathlolics... they exist in a state of self dilusion that what they are doing is what God wants them to... they couldn't be more wrong.

THIS....BUT APPLIES TO ALL RELIGIONS

Pretty much.. but the RCC is at the apex of totally made up shiat.

Please, son you ever taken a course in comparative religion? Scientology has that prize locked the fark down, followed by Mormonsim (since DNA kinda disproves its central thesis) , then we have any number of cargo Cults, the Cult of St. Narco, followed by Druid and Wicca" (love you guys but ain;t a damn thing historical about either one), Then you got to get by LaVey's Church of Satan, and Free Masonry before you get into a three way tie between Hindusm/Buddhism/and Catholicism

Minor point: the Pacific cargo cults were worshiping actual tangible beings; of all the religions on your list, theirs had the best chance of getting what they prayed for...and actually succeeded, in some cases, albeit by accident rather than prayer.

Hey, you know what's better than cargo cults? Ancestor worship.

At least you know the people you worship are real and are directly responsible for your birth.

PunGent:Magorn: dwrash: Head_Shot: dwrash: As with all Cathlolics... they exist in a state of self dilusion that what they are doing is what God wants them to... they couldn't be more wrong.

THIS....BUT APPLIES TO ALL RELIGIONS

Pretty much.. but the RCC is at the apex of totally made up shiat.

Please, son you ever taken a course in comparative religion? Scientology has that prize locked the fark down, followed by Mormonsim (since DNA kinda disproves its central thesis) , then we have any number of cargo Cults, the Cult of St. Narco, followed by Druid and Wicca" (love you guys but ain;t a damn thing historical about either one), Then you got to get by LaVey's Church of Satan, and Free Masonry before you get into a three way tie between Hindusm/Buddhism/and Catholicism

Minor point: the Pacific cargo cults were worshiping actual tangible beings; of all the religions on your list, theirs had the best chance of getting what they prayed for...and actually succeeded, in some cases, albeit by accident rather than prayer.

Isn't that how most current religions formed, though, by people worshiping some elemental force or other until their simple faith is co-opted by a ruler with an agenda? Praying to the sun, ocean, thunder, or river gods is no sillier than the cargo cults. It's the combination of time and accumulated dogma that makes modern religions sound so wacky.

crappie:AverageAmericanGuy: If you were a demon and wanted to possess someone, why would you do it anywhere near a place that your immortal enemy hangs out? Wouldn't it be better to possess someone in Asia?

Of you haven't noticed, only religious people get possessed.Same with stigmata...only super religious people.

TheBigJerk:Here's the thing about Mary-worshippers, so you've got your "history" involving Jesus and saints and miracles as True Facts™ and you've got your "It's my faith and I believe it so you have to respect that"™ arguments and that's fine. I may not particularly RESPECT it but I can let it slide. It's a faith. Live and let live until you're starting trouble (again). My snidery will be low-key.

That same rule has to apply to the scilons, the modern witches, the "Islam was practiced by Adam and Eve" (no really, Muslims believe that) gang and the reptile people. Your god is old? Her goddess is older. You make fun of their religion for changing over time with "revealed" whatzits? Same applies to praying to the holy dragon.