This is the same presentation Steve has been making for years. I watched it at Bimmerfest maybe five years ago. There are some truths to what he is saying but the devil is always in the details and he glanced over the various application specific details that allow piggybacks to provide the same or improved reliability compared to their flash tunes.

It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

The exact same can be said about piggy's.. if the builder doesn't know what to do/the limits, you have a blown/bad running motor.

To a degree as you're influencing factory programming, not changing it. Factory DME tuning requires far more skill. It isn't even close honestly.

Originally Posted by Flinchy

and what do you mean?.. the N63 doesn't have DME access, hence no turbo upgrades?? :/

Programming the ECU and full control are two different things. We are just getting to the point now where the S54 can have a factory DME tuned turbo. It takes someone with major skill to pull that off. Plugging in a piggy won't accomplish it.

$30k for a Stroked BMW engine would be reasonable here in Australia lol. I build evo engines that are $35k and 2000hp 2JZ drag engines that are around $80k. You guys have it too good there hahaha

You could probably build a stroked S54 for <$20-$25k? haha

$8200 for a 3.4 or 3.5 stroker from VAC.. another $10k in work and misc parts?.. sounds good to me

2000hp for $80k is also pretty cheap imo, and probably similar to over in the states... things like titan motors cost the same no matter where you get them.. that is to say, $$$$$$ haha... 2j's have such a huge following over there though, however the base cars cost way more.... and same for said built evo.. 2.4 stroker or something? those things are stout and make insane power, regularly see 800-900whp out of them, i think $35k for that is also a bargain haha.

Originally Posted by Terry@BMS

This is the same presentation Steve has been making for years. I watched it at Bimmerfest maybe five years ago. There are some truths to what he is saying but the devil is always in the details and he glanced over the various application specific details that allow piggybacks to provide the same or improved reliability compared to their flash tunes.

Yeah i find it strange that instead of taking the high road and going for a better product.. he takes the low road and largely baselessly attacks the competition.. because he's losing.

Originally Posted by Sered

I'll bet money right now that given full DME control, that there's quite a few tuners out there that would blow away Dinan. Hell, the N54 world they already can using the Cobb and that's still not full control.

Dinan's products are overrated and overpriced. The only thing that it tells me is someone was dumb enough to pay big money for mediocre gains.

Well the n54 is pretty decently controlled at least? not as full as it could be i guess, yeah, but they're constantly finding/trying to find new tables that are useful at least haha

To a degree as you're influencing factory programming, not changing it. Factory DME tuning requires far more skill. It isn't even close honestly.

Programming the ECU and full control are two different things. We are just getting to the point now where the S54 can have a factory DME tuned turbo. It takes someone with major skill to pull that off. Plugging in a piggy won't accomplish it.

I can't agree with that, but fair enough.. again with the proviso that manual hex editing is definitely in it's own league of skill... but comparing say JB4 vs cobb tuning, you can't say the JB4 is a simple piece of gear to develop?

Well, yeah that's true.. even the piggies for the *63 motors aren't fully developed though

$8200 for a 3.4 or 3.5 stroker from VAC.. another $10k in work and misc parts?.. sounds good to me

2000hp for $80k is also pretty cheap imo, and probably similar to over in the states... things like titan motors cost the same no matter where you get them.. that is to say, $$$$$$ haha... 2j's have such a huge following over there though, however the base cars cost way more.... and same for said built evo.. 2.4 stroker or something? those things are stout and make insane power, regularly see 800-900whp out of them, i think $35k for that is also a bargain haha.

Yeah i find it strange that instead of taking the high road and going for a better product.. he takes the low road and largely baselessly attacks the competition.. because he's losing.

Well the n54 is pretty decently controlled at least? not as full as it could be i guess, yeah, but they're constantly finding/trying to find new tables that are useful at least haha

The only GOOD side is that if the dealer installs it your backed up by them and THATS all you get. I called them for a tune for my DIESEL and they were like deer in head lights. And never came thru for us. ONLY JB RENNtech Evolve and now Ecotune for the US Version Diesel.

Dinan is overpriced, but it is conservatively engineered and is warranted. No one else does that.

And he is 100% correct about native code vs. parasitic piggybacks feeding false sensor readings to the DME.

Sorry guys, but his company knows more than most of us.

Who else is supplying engines in DP that supports BMW tuning?

I would argue that you do not have total control over the DME unless you have the source code, or a whitepaper on it. DME does a lot of modeling vs referencing tables, which is why those who are flash tuning still don't have full control.

It totally agree with Steve Dinan about the piggybacks. They are just patches, no matter how advance they seem to be, they are way inferior to the logic of properly modified calibration softwares. An example, a piggy back can claim world record hp on Dyno, since a stock DDE/ME/ECU will never allow to exceed engine limitation (but it can be changed!). All this world record dynos w/piggyback, you have to question it in real world varied driving conditions, and long-term testing to ensure consistent drivability and engine durability. And, the worst part... piggyback would just develop exclusively on a chassis Dyno and go straight there to ends customer. For more advanced pigggyback, if check engine lights come on, they would just erase code. It's like it doesnt want you to know the reality what's happening.

Why I never see ALL piggyback owners leave it on car & take it to service when they have an engine issue caused by installed item? It's because it's like having warranty fraud. Ask, how BMW NA how many engine got caught with failures from a piggyback vs. a properly tuned calibration.

No they don't. The ability to flash the ECU and completely control the ECU are two different things.

I hope you are drinking.

If one can flash the DME, then one has control of the DME. To flash it is to program it, for better or worse. Adding on a system that gives altered sensor reading is not controlling it, only an attempt to fool it. And it only affects the sensor signal intercepted. A flash can alter everything and anything.

If one can flash the DME, then one has control of the DME. To flash it is to program it, for better or worse. Adding on a system that gives altered sensor reading is not controlling it, only an attempt to fool it. And it only affects the sensor signal intercepted. A flash can alter everything and anything.

Sticky is correct. I'm curious, what kind of experience do you have flash tuning the MSD80/1 DME?

If one can flash the DME, then one has control of the DME. To flash it is to program it, for better or worse. Adding on a system that gives altered sensor reading is not controlling it, only an attempt to fool it. And it only affects the sensor signal intercepted. A flash can alter everything and anything.

You don't know what you're talking about.

Writing to the ECU does not mean you can do whatever you want with the ECU. We would have had stock DME turbo kits for the E46 M3 the day people could flash the ECU then and that was over 10 years ago.

However, he also is given full control of those ECU's through BMW Motorsport.

Steve is claiming in that Smoking Tire podcast posted early today, that Dinan spends $600k on hacking software a year. He has 6 people on his staff that spend all day hacking. He gave an arbitrary time to hack an ecu of half a year.

Steve is claiming in that Smoking Tire podcast posted early today, that Dinan spends $600k on hacking software a year. He has 6 people on his staff that spend all day hacking. He gave an arbitrary time to hack an ecu of half a year.

That is absolutely true on the street cars.

He hires Cal Tech engineers, gives them the best equipment, and just brute forces his way in there.