The crying woman on the Orange Line, part II

A man who says he also watched the incident unfold explains why crying lady wasn't exactly Miss Innocent, that, in fact, she had been subtly tormenting the guy and an older woman she sat between from Downtown Crossing all the way into JP.

This woman proceeded to play her Nintendo DS, not with earphones on but with the system speakers set at a selfishly loud volume. To me this was becoming surreal and potentially escalating to a point of intentionally provoked confrontation. She seemed to be deriving great satisfaction from the discomfort she was causing those around her. If there was ever a way to instigate confrontation on the subway she was doing a great job. The gentleman to her right, no longer able to contain himself, said "Can you please turn that down?" To my utter excitement ( I admit it, I had front row seats and this was pure entertainment) She TURNED THE VOLUME HIGHER like a defiant, petulant child would, to purposely anger him. Subsequently, as though it couldn't get worse she physically shoved both her elbows into her neighbors in a blatant show of further undeniable violation of personal space.

Alison, who wrote the first post, replies (Note: That will bring up a copy stored here on UHub - seems somebody keeps getting the Craigslist version deleted).

Men do this to women, whether it's reported to Reddit or not. They typically don't do it to men and if they do, it's more of a confrontational way instead of whispering in her ear so she is shamed and doesn't feel she can be in a public space without being cowardly attacked. These guys know that if they did it out loud, there's the potential for someone to defend her. This way, they don't get confronted and they diminish her self esteem and trust in the rest of the people around her (no one defended me!). Neither is accidental. And it is misogyny because it is telling her she doesn't deserve to be in public unless she fits what he considers to be the allowable shape for a woman. He might have been more inclined to do it because of her behavior (which makes her an asshole too - just a different kind) but he's indicated he's that kind of guy and would have done it to someone anyway (nor was it his first time).

How do I know this - I got sick, went on medication and gained a lot of weight quickly while this was being diagnosed and figured out. I was walking an hour a day, working out 3 times a week minimum and eating at most 1200 calories a day (part of being sick). Very upsetting and disorienting on it's own. But if I went into a public space or god forbid, ate in public, I was whispered to as well. And I wasn't playing on my nintendo either.

If you want to know someone's true character, look at how they treat clerks, waiters, and people heavier than the norm. Eye opening.

It does not mean "confronting a person who squeezes two people by forcing their way into a seat not big enough for them, whips out a video game and plays it loudly, and when asked to turn it down, turns it up even louder."

tldr version: confronting someone for extremely anti-social behavior is not automatically misogynistic because they're a woman, just like a woman who confronts a man for something they're doing is not automatically being misandric.

So apparently the testimony of the first original CL-poster is more reliable than the other person? They're both...anonymous...craigslist...postings.

Or are you being sexist, and attributing one specific poster's comments more honesty because she's a woman? That there is misogyny and sexism against women does not mean that in one specific case, this particular woman is more honest or trustworthy.

How about the people on reddit and here who recognized the woman from the description of her behavior and described similarly asshole-y behavior?

You point out how much this woman was acting like a jerk to other T riders. That sucks...I hate it when people act like jerks on the T, or really anywhere. Here's the thing though, and this is really the main point that I need to make:

IT'S NEVER OKAY TO SHAME SOMEONE FOR THEIR WEIGHT.

So, you can use your weight to be a jerk, but nobody can be a jerk to you back. Right. Got it.

Psychic trauma begets psychic trauma. News at 11. She deserved to feel some amount of discomfort based on how she acted, if the observer's recounting is to be believed. I don't really care how it was delivered. He didn't punch her in the fat roll, he punched her in the mind. She actually elbowed him in the chest. Point goes to the gentleman, I believe.

While I despise to my core with the heat of a thousand suns rude and ridiculous people who exhibit the type of behavior described in the original rebuttal (the woman sitting on people, playing her game loudly, turning up the volume to antagonize), none of that gives someone the right to fat-shame her.

I agree completely with the original poster's rebuttal - the comment about losing weight is not constructive, has nothing to do with her rude behavior, and only serves to be mean and belittle her. It's about making her feel like shit about herself for being overweight, period.

I have no problem at all calling people out for rude behavior on the train, in fact I do it often (to no effect of course) myself, but there is no call for bringing weight into the matter.

More like "she sat in a seat when some pinhead asshole wanted to air out his balls" and got fatshamed for it.

I have a very average sized ass and have been called a "fat bitch" because I wanted to sit in my seat and have that seat to myself and not share half of it with a male stranger pushing me aside to bro sit.

Of course the obvious retort is: If I'm fat, then why are you the one who thinks you need more than a seat?

Note: this has happened far more than once. Women who insist on not sharing their seat with a man who doesn't fit or thinks he "needs" that room are "fat".

If it was a debate then yes, attacking her weight does not anything to the argument. It only seeks inflict some type of pain without any argument teaching what is wrong.

However, this wasn't a debate. It was some type of conflict where both sides allegedly were trying to just making each other day worse. You can almost say it was a battle of malice, but going from this Craigslist post, the person bringing up fat said it as a way to bring a negative consequence to her allegedly hostile actions.

You're right this would not make any argument. But then we have to take account that plenty of actions from sentencing law (despite much is structured to rehabilitate) breaking to merely grounding a child operate on the same idea. None makes any argument why an action is wrong, it just sets that so-so bad action means you get pained in some way.

From this story it sounds like the lady might have had some mental health issues, with which these two tough prideful Bostonians seemed to have none too much sympathy at 5:20 pm. Makes me glad I don't ride the T anymore during rush hour, quite honestly. As far as this one line from Alison's reply to the reply:

would a man say such a thing to another man? Would a woman say such a thing to a man?

I've definitely seen people, both male and female, comment on the weight of obese males in a derogatory way. Although it's still not nice.

Eating stinky fast food on public transportation. Not cool, man: not cool. Too many public-transit junk-horfers leave their trash behind, to boot, leaving a smelly echo of their rudeness for later riders to endure.

Can't say I find any of this second-hand accounting of bad public behavior particularly trustworthy, but neither do I find either side of this sorry story hard to believe. A shame more people aren't miserable human beings to strangers. Too bad it's a fallen world.

I think Steve Annear at Boston Magazine had it first. Dunno if he saw it on Jezebel or got it some other way. Then I linked to it. Then boston.com linked to it with that stupid headline. Sorry. it wasn't a stupid headline. It was a joke. The reporter who posted the thing for them is still very upset that I am taking that headline seriously when not only was it a joke, they told me it was a joke, and yet I refuse to apologize for being too dense to realize it was a joke.

Funny, I believe both of them, what a pathetic story, however. The gentleman's account is almost photographically accurate, so I believe his account, but I think it is also unnecessary to talk to a stranger about their weight. Interesting though on the T etiquette.

I am not huge but a middle-aged to aging 6 foot man. I never sit down on the empty middle seat if the two seats surrounding it are occupied because I am too big. However, if someone is sitting in the middle seat and the two seats on either side of the person is empty, I sit down on one of them, assuming the person will slide over to the empty seat, leving an empty seat between us. I don't consider myself rude doing this, but please correct me if you feel that is incorrect.

I get on and off at the end of the line when the train is usually less than half full. I see people put bags on empty seats next to them or sit in the middle as if they expect the car will not fill up, and it always does.

"would a man say such a thing to another man? Would a woman say such a thing to a man? "

Well, uh, YES they would. I don't know what makes "Alison" think this kind of rudeness is exclusive to males saying it to females. I've heard women calling men "chubbo", among other things. And just today I overheard a young woman on the T speaking into her cell phone "he'd be alright if it wasn't for his hairline..." Granted, she wasn't saying it to someone's face, but she said it. And a hairline isn't something that can be helped. Weight can be controlled in most circumstances.

after all, southie is home to a good many of island mentality and has played host to more than its fair share of isms and phobias in recent memory. And cars played a huge role in irrevocably altering the american landscape and eviscerating city and country alike.

It most assuredly is. A woman where I work was mad at the boss for basically being a jerk and she said (out of his earshot of course) "that bald headed bastard!". Now I'm sure the reason she was annoyed with him is because he is a dick and a terrible boss, not because he is follicle challenged. Likewise, I'm sure the guy on the T was more annoyed with the fat woman because she was an obnoxious jerk rather than the fact that she's a fatso. Although I have to wonder what the mad woman at work would have shouted about the dickhead boss if he had looked like Brad Pitt.

Would it have been better if he made fun of her haircut? Her clothes? Whether she wore glasses? The guy was pissed she was acting like an a-hole, he probably looked at her and saw she was overweight, and that's the first insult that popped into his head. I'd guess if you asked him today, he probably regrets it, but I can't say I wouldn't do the same thing of someone was purposely trying to antagonize me. I know I've called my brother a fatass a few times in his life when he's made me angry.

Shaming someone because of their religion.
Shaming someone because of their race.
Shaming someone because of their sexual orientation.
Shaming someone because of their weight.

One is not like the other: one pertains to behavior, the others pertain to essence.

It's entirely appropriate for someone who fails to manage his or her caloric intake, or who is addicted to nicotine or opiates, or who is a drinking alcoholic, to feel a certain amount of shame over the self-destructive behavior in which they engage. It is never appropriate for anyone to feel shame over his or her race, religion, or sexual orientation.

With that said, deliberately shaming a stranger over any of these, is obnoxious, rude, and uncouth. Responding rudely to rude behavior is never a good idea.

Showing that addiction, weight, etc. is less of a personal moral failure and more physiological/ neurological, or "essence".... Certainly as much or more than religion. We can't shame the Phelps clan for their religion?

If someone sits on my lap on the T. (has happened more than twice) and I say, "Excuse me Gigantor, I actually need that leg to WALK on when we get where I'm going. Is you're ass numb? You don't feel my leg under it? You also didn't see me sitting in the exact spot you put your ass? REALLY? How about get up and go sit somewhere where you FIT?"

I wish I had known I was shaming this guy. I mean I still would have said exactly what I said the way I said it but then I could have said,

"Now you've been SHAMED! So Don't sit on people and you won't BE shamed!"

That would have been great. By the way. I was texting and walked into a lady who called me a dickhead. I didn't feel shamed. I felt like a dickhead.

The difference between name calling and belittling an individual who doesn't understand how to conform to social norms for behavior being bullying or not depends on whether you are Nancy's relative.

Okay.

So it was therefore not bullying when my autistic brother was bullied mercilessly because he looked and acted funny because because he was a weirdo freak and shaming is acceptable when it isn't Nancy's nephew.

That's the sound of my point going right over your head. If I rewrite my post to be entirely in the 3rd person or in the 1st person would that make you feel better? I like to think that most people here read my post and realized that those were merely examples of the very big difference between shame and bullying.

I wasn't saying that bullying is limited to my nephew. You read it that way.

The original poster (which went viral to several online sites) really seems to be projecting (I also think she is one of the anons here) - it went from defending a woman who had been verbally assaulted by someone she then torn down this person via curse and generalization. Her follow up post to the rebuttal falls apart, talks about 'white guy entitlement' and fat shaming. I'm not saying she is a heavy non white person, but the tone of her posts are much more about her, than the woman 'insulted' or the guy who did it. It speaks volumes.

For what it is worth, as someone who rides the T every day (and has for two decades) I've heard people tell others to 'get the Hell out of the way!" or 'move their lard ass!' - these were usually women yelling at other people. Now, I could list a few incidents of race, age, etc, however, but the rudeness came in all shapes and sizes.

The real jerk is the poster, who got up on her high horse and decided to tear someone down on the Internet, and then obviously sent it around to sites that would sensationalize it, giving her attention.

Rude responding with Rude is not a great idea I agree, but turning into a whole anti man / anti white / fat is beautiful this guy deservers to die, is really wrong, and honestly, CL should remove her post.

Surprised that no one mentioned that her size was relevant to the fact that she was squishing those around her. The fact that she was too big for the space available made the comment more than just a dig at her shape.

The ladies response to the response is the worst, most enraging part of this entire thing. So this woman can be a complete and total asshole, and you can't call her fat? Pointing out that she's overweight is the same thing as making a racist remark? Uh, no. It's not. It's not even close to the same thing.

Being overweight is something that is preventable, and, frankly, should be prevented. It's something that should be judged in the same manner as smoking or drinking to excess. You'd have no problem with giving someone shit about choosing to ruin their health by smoking, why can't you do the same when someone is of an unhealthy weight?

FURTHER, pointing out that someone is overweight is not even in the same ball park as making a racial slur, a homophobic slur or making insensitive statements about someone being disabled. The difference here is that you have no choice what race you are, what your sexual orientation is or whether or not your disabled. You do have the ability to not be overweight. And if you're being a jackass, AND you're overweight, don't be surprised when someone points out the fact that you're an overweight jackass.

If someone is being an asshole, they should be called an asshole. If they're going out of their way to bother you and make you uncomfortable, you have every right to do the same.

Also, enough with this BS. Being overweight isn't the same thing as being African American, homosexual or disabled. It's not even close. Please tell me what kindergarten you went to that taught you that so I can make sure I never send my children there. Thanks.

Obesity is an epidemic in this country. It costs tax payers BILLIONS in heath care costs every year because people choose not to take care of themselves and maintain a healthy lifestyle and weight. It is literally the exact same thing as choosing to smoke cigarettes. You're choosing to do something that is provably unhealthy. Can you be addicted to food? Sure. Is it hard to not eat whatever the F you want? You bet. But you can also be addicted to nicotine, and it's pretty god damn hard to stop smoking too.

So please, stop pretending that being overweight is some sort of unassailable affliction. It isn't. It is literally a choice you make EVERY DAY to not be concerned about your health and well being. Period. And one of the biggest problems for doctors is that, when they tell their patients they're too fat, people like you and this bleeding heart writing these posts accuse them of "fat shaming." If you are overweight it is unhealthy. This is not a debatable point. Nearly every person on planet earth has the ability to NOT be overweight. That is also not a debatable point.

So please stop pretending that being overweight is the same as being of a certain race or sexual orientation. It's not, and to argue otherwise is ignorant.

... whether someone is seriously overweight due to "self-indulgence" or due to some medical condition. If the answer is no, then the charitable way to handle things (even if unwarranted in a particular case) is "don't blame". (Or is dumping on others so satisfying that you wouldn't want to give it up).

"So-- you can tell by a glance whether someone is seriously overweight due to 'self-indulgence' or due to some medical condition."

I was wondering when that old saw would come up. I would say it's a safe bet that 98% of the seriously overweight people one might see on the T are that way from their own unhealthy habits, rather than the small percent that have an actual medical condition. But that's the problem now. There is no PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY at all anymore. Where did that go? Eat too much? You've got a "medical condition". Drink too much? You've got a "disease". You're a big jerk? You are "socially impeded" or have "social anxiety". At some point people have to take responsibility for their actions.

is pretty much never appropriate, unless you're specifically criticizing a behavior that is specifically impinging on your life. And no, someone else's over-eating, or substance abuse problem, doesn't specifically impinge on you in the way that, say, forcing oneself into a space where one doesn't fit, or stealing your iPhone to feed a drug habit does.

With that said, the proportion of fat people who are fat due to a medical condition is just vanishingly small to the point of statistical insignificance.

Obesity was pretty scarce 50 years ago. So explanations resting solely on inevitable genetics don't pass muster, unless you posit that our genetic makeup has changed significantly in two generations. And there's no particular evidence that the prevalence of disease conditions that could lead to obesity has vastly increased, which leaves behavior as an explanation that fits the observable data.

Now, if you want to define overeating as a disease condition (not that far-fetched, since the latest edition of the DSM seems to define being really sad after the death of a loved one as a diagnosable disease condition), then of course you could argue that all obesity is the result of disease. But I don't think that's very useful.

How great that this story (and this thread) have all the worst aspects of no effort social justice in one place.

- Arrogant video game players
- movethefuckoverbro morons who think the way someone normally on the T is PATRIARCHY/OPPRESSION/something to do with men needing to air out genitals???? (surprised a picture wasn't included)
- fat acceptance lunatics that compare weight to race

The last is the root of the problem. I am sure she was waiting with baited breath to unleash her tumblr diatribe.

We just assume he said what he said without provocation? We assume Alison saw their entire day together before that encounter? How do we know she can dish it out but can't take it? Maybe the guy is a giant douchenozzle, but it's not like we have enough proof of anything.

You refer to her weight constantly and use descriptions like "average" to describe what you believe she is not. Do you see how you are reinforcing ideas of body normativity here?

Average has a real definition. If the woman didn't fit in a single MBTA seat, then she's not average. It's not a belief. It's a fact.

As for "body normativity", you know what I hate? Amusement parks. I love roller coasters, but I've allowed myself to get too out-of-shape to fit most of their harnesses (sad, but true). "I hate those bullies at the roller coaster manufacturers who make seats that reinforce body normativity so I can't have a good time!"

Do you realize how dumb that sounds? It's because it's dumb. Roller coasters, like MBTA seats, airplane seats, and most other public conveyances, are made to fit MOST people (in fact, I still fit in an MBTA seat without invading others' space). They have an inherent assumption of "body normativity" to maximize their usefulness to everyone as best they can.

We're fat, we're skinny, we're short, we're tall, we're nice, we're mean. And most of all we're judgemental and have been for tens of thousands of years. I'm thankful that I don't live in a Utopian world where everyone looks and acts the same, what a boring world that would be.

In most well-considered utopias, there exists communal sharing of resources, but in order to do so, each person has to perform their own roles in order to sustain the well-being of the society. Thomas More's Utopia, drawing from Plato's Republic, contains such a system. Such a system doesn't lend itself to everyone looking nor acting alike otherwise each person would be ultimately responsible for all of their life-sustaining roles. That would be more of a libertarian's utopia, however even in that extreme, not everyone will be as successful at sustaining themselves and the end result will be different looks and acts by every person you would see.

* - I actually took an advanced English/History course in college on the study of utopias.

Two wrongs don't make a right, but it certainly makes a difference that the guy was not unprovoked in what he said. It doesn't make what he said right, but if the woman was being an inconsiderate jerk on the train first, then I can understand why someone might say some unkind words to her.

There are at least two sides to every story, and reality is somewhere in between them.

1. It is okay to rudely comment on someone's appearance because Obesity Epidemic is Health Issue.

2. Shaming of weirdos who act oddly/antisocially and look weird/don't conform is not only okay but important because shaming makes them change! Unless, of course, they happen to be the weird acting, weird looking nephew of a certain poster, because he's autistic and that makes it bullying and you should just know that! Because!

3. If someone is being a rude asshole, that makes it open season for everyone to be a rude asshole because that gives them a right to be a rude asshole!

Attention starved "activists" will twist any situation into a publicity stunt despite their complete lies/hypocrisy and having their agenda rejected by the overwhelming majority of society. But hey, when you can't get a real job with real promotions then you have to settle for self-promotion.

Meanwhile over at BU, I haven't heard a peep out of the "Humanists" and other marginalized wackos about the disgusting man-shaming over at the DFP. I guess equality isn't really their agenda, it's incessant whining and special rights for the chosen few.

#3 is completely correct. If someone is being a rude asshole, then yes, it is open season for everyone to be a rude asshole to them. Based on this side of the story, she clearly was being rude on purpose. So she deserves to be treated with the same lack of respect that she gives others. Not sure why you think that is wrong.

Since it sounds like she was being a jerk, she deserved to be treated that way. Fat shaming does not cross the line any more than her increasing the volume of her game and elbowing people does. I really don't understand why people are claiming his response somehow went too far. If someone is purposely trying to piss off the people around them, then they should be able to handle it when someone dishes it back at them.

Saying his piece only when he knew he was about to exit. If what he said was legit, why not say it earlier, then stick around to defend the point? He knew it was a dickish thing to say regardless of provocation.