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NDP / Dobbin: "Who will stop Stephen Harper?"

I think all parties have a tendency to focus too heavily on tactics and winning seats. And I think that focus is regularly reflected in babble discussions. There are any number of discussions out there consisting primarily of people hyperventilating at the prospect of replacing the Liberals as the official opposition. If that were to actually happen, it would entail the NDP becoming a more centrist party, like the provincial NDP.

In other words, my definition of success is not an NDP government, it's a better educated, more progressive Canada. With a more politically aware populace, governments of any stripe are not going to be able to get away with the stuff Harper has been pulling.

Now certainly the 2 can go hand in hand but the tactics-focused approach isn't going to get us there.

While Harper is undoubtedly aware of the Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh- a precursor of the old Testament, he may have intentionally ignored the Legend of King Enmebaragesi, and the King's abuse of power.

IN AN EARLY SUMERIAN LEGEND ABOUT KING ENMEBARAGESI OF KISH. IT IS SAID THAT HE SOUGHT COUNSEL AND SUPPORT, FROM THE ORACLE, ABOUT INVADING THE NEIGHBOURING LAND OF URUK, THE ORACLE SANCTIONED THE INVASION, AND HE INVADED THE NEIGHBOURING LAND OF URUK, NO ONE DARED CHALLENGE HIM AND FEW QUESTIONED HIS ACTIONS;

SOME TIME LATER, KING ENMEBARAGESI OF KISH AND OF URUK AGAIN SOUGHT COUNSEL AND SUPPORT, FROM THE ORACLE, ABOUT INVADING THE LAND OF LARSA, THE ORACLE AGAIN SANCTIONED THE INVASION AND HE INVADED THE LAND OF LARSA; SOME DARED TO CHALLENGE HIM AND SOME QUESTIONED HIS ACTIONS BUT THEIR WISE COUNSEL WAS NOT HEEDED;

THEN THE NEXT YEAR, DELUDING HIMSELF INTO THINKING THAT HE WAS ALL-POWERFUL, KING ENMEBARAGESI OF KISH OF URUK AND OF LARSA AGAIN SOUGHT COUNSEL AND SUPPORT, FROM THE ORACLE, ABOUT INVADING THE NEIGHBOURING LAND OF UR, THIS TIME THE ORACLE STATED THAT IF YOU INVADE UR, THE GREATEST LEADER WILL PREVAIL. ASSUMING THAT THE GREATEST LEADER WOULD BE HE, AND HE WOULD BE KING ENMEBARAGESI OF KISH OF URUK OF LARSA AND OF UR - AND HE WOULD RULE OVER THE MAJORITY OF KINGDOMS IN SUMERIA. HE INVADED THE LAND OF UR, BUT THIS TIME EVERY ONE CHALLENGED HIM AND QUESTIONED HIS ACTIONS, AND THIS TIME ANOTHER LEADER BECAME THE GREATEST LEADER AND KING ENMEBARAGESI LOST ALL POWER

(FROM A CUNEIFORM TABLET UNEARTHED NEAR THE ANCIENT ARCHAEOLOGICAL SITE OF UR, PLACED IN THE MUSEUM OF ARCHEOLOGY IN BAGHDAD AND DISAPPEARED DURING THE 2003 INVASION OF BAGDAD, BY THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA )

Caveat: in the absence of a relevant Fable, Parable, Allegory or Legend, it is incumbent upon one to invent a legend to describe the fall from the abuse of power.

The Dobbin school propose the oddest sort of political strategy: That the way to move Canadian political discourse to the left is for the only party on the left to marginalize itself so that the right wing duopoly can continue in power unmolested.

The Dobbin school propose the oddest sort of political strategy: That the way to move Canadian political discourse to the left is for the only party on the left to marginalize itself so that the right wing duopoly can continue in power unmolested.

Dobbin's "vision" is pure blindness.

Yep exactly.

It is the same vision that the BC NDP 'Brain Trust" is invoking. Talk liberal to try and get elected do not under any circumstances let any voter believe you are anything but a centrist. Murray is merely trying to get the federal scene to where the BD NDP is. A right wing party and a liberal/centrist alternative. In neither case does social democracy or socialism get discussed only wishy washy solutions that are designed to not rock the boat to much for our masters.

So, Kropotkin. Can you explain to me how having a duopoly of two right wing parties will do more to advance left wing ideas?

You complain that BC has a duopoly of "right" and "liberal centrist." What you and Murray propose for Canada is a duopoly of "right" and "right."

If you think that such a duopoly will advance progressive ideas, you are utterly deluded.

Malcolm where did I ever say I thought Murray's approach would advance any left wing ideas. I merely pointed out it will lead to the BC experience were the party that has supplanted the "liberals" has refused to talk about social chance as a matter of principle to attract upper and middle class voters. They have been doing that for three elections and the only really noticeable trend is a steady decline of voter participation.

It is hard talking about BC politics because with the names of the two parties being Liberal and NDP one might think the discourse takes place on the left of centre of the spectrum but is hardly the case. We actually have a Chicago School party and a federal Liberal style party in the Rae Dosange mold. I am actually worried that ideas like Murray's will lead to less discourse about socialist solutions as it has in BC, Sask., and Man.

I believer that Murray's solution means that the most left wing ideas that get looked at are small l liberal views. This has clearly already happened in BC.