I think it pretty much comes down to what you like best. They all have brotastic rumors of causing cancer, strokes, growing a third eye, etc. But I have yet to read a study that looks like it could be applied real world usage. Personally, I like Splenda the best. But im a sweet and low kinda guy cause im cheap.

Splenda and many other artificial sweeteners have actually been shown to elicit an insulin response in the absence of carbohydrates...I believe the only one that did not do that was Stevia. Aspartame is certainly garbage and I would stay away from that.....10% of it is Wood Alcohol.
I would always try to stick with Stevia.

A lot of foods elicit an insulin response. Even protein powder will elicit an unsulin response. What difference does the insulin response make?

Well people stay away from regular soda because they think the sugar will cause an insulin spike and the sugar will be stored as fat...I was just pointing out that the same is true for most artificial sweeteners.

Gotcha. The insulin response to artificial sweetener is minimal at best (probably non-existent). But in order for anything to be stored as fat, it has to contain calories. An insulin response cannot trigger storage if there is nothing to store. Insulin is really only a very small piece of the fat storage equation as well. Really not worth concerning yourself over.

Gotcha. The insulin response to artificial sweetener is minimal at best (probably non-existent). But in order for anything to be stored as fat, it has to contain calories. An insulin response cannot trigger storage if there is nothing to store. Insulin is really only a very small piece of the fat storage equation as well. Really not worth concerning yourself over.

Im not sure which part of my post you are referring to. I dont think we need a reference for the fact that unless there are calories to be stored, then fat storage doesnt take place. That seems like common sense. And the calories in those sweeteners are minimal at best. If you are drinking a diet coke and insulin is somehow triggered, what does it matter? There are no calories in the coke to be stored.

Even when looking at a mixed meal where carbs, fats, protein, etc is present ......insulin is obviously going to be secreted regardless of the sweetener you use on the meal. And so what if it is? Our body is constantly storing and releasing fat. Trying to control insulin secretion is a futile attempt. If insulin is high at this moment.......it will be low in an hour from now. What matters most is the net storage of bodyfat and that comes down to calorie intake vs calorie expenditure. If you are counting calories as a bodybuilder would, concerning yourself with insulin is like worrying about whether you should use a chrome bar or gun-metal finish when doing squats. Its just irrelevant.

Insulin control is important if you eat by "feel" because insulin secretion has a lot to do with satiety. Most bodybuilders count their calories and macros and in that case, insulin secretion is a very minor issue.

On a bulk.....I might tend to agree with you more. But when you are in a calorie-controlled deficit, insulin is a very small player.

Insulin control is important if you eat by "feel" because insulin secretion has a lot to do with satiety. Most bodybuilders count their calories and macros and in that case, insulin secretion is a very minor issue.

On a bulk.....I might tend to agree with you more. But when you are in a calorie-controlled deficit, insulin is a very small player.

This goes against everything I have ever heard about being in a caloried controlled deficit and dieting. I have always heard levels of stable low insulin is the best environment for fat loss.

I personally use Erythritol/Inulin (glycemic index 0 and no effects on insulin or blood sugar,
also no stomach discomfort with this, the only sugar alcohol that doesn't do that)
to cook and make home made protein bars and such, and Z-sweet as sugar substitute.
This one too has zero glycemic load, no effects on insulin and zero cals

minus truvia, I would just rather stay away from most artifical sweeteners regardless of their little effects on insulin or damage on the body (aspartame). It would be like someone putting a little battery acid in my drink and saying ...its in such small amounts you wont taste it...it wont do anything to you. Would I drink it? No. haha just my personal preference. These sweeteners really haven't been out long enough to get really good studies on.

That's interesting. Could you tell something more about it? (legit question)

Originally Posted by fightbackhxc

This goes against everything I have ever heard about being in a caloried controlled deficit and dieting. I have always heard levels of stable low insulin is the best environment for fat loss.

Well, I hate to be bro-science buster, but it just aint true. When I first began bodybuilding I ate very consciously considering GI of the carb sources. I lost fat and had decent success. Following my first competitive season I started to associate with some guys that put the emphasis on food quantity and macro ratios......and COUNTING everything to the gram. And although some importance was placed on the micronutritional side of the equation, food source was the lesser issue for these guys. Glycemic index was not even on the radar and I watched the conditioning of these guys while they dieted on Pop tarts, protein cakes, frozen yogurt, etc. And they got RIDICULOUSLY shredded. Like striations so deeply cut in their ass, you can see them through their shorts. No joke. So....i decided to try paying closer attention to the details of weighing, tracking and measuring food and less attention to food source. I regularly diet on all kinds of "taboo, insulin-spiking" foods now and I found it doesnt make a lick of difference.

Why? First off.....insulin is a highly anabolic hormone. And the more time we can spend with insulin levels high while still losing weight, the better. Yes, i know this is absolutely contrary to what most people believe about dieting. But think about the fact that many guys purposefully TRY to spike insulin post workout. Why? Insulin is anabolic. The thing is that if I eat a mound of peeled white potatoes now (very high GI) my insulin spikes faster and further than if I had a bowl of oatmeal. But the flip side to the white potato is that the insulin comes down much faster and im back to a very low level before the oats would reach that baseline. So the spike of the low GI oatmeal is lesser but its also longer and more linear.

All that to say it "all comes out in the wash". Whether I allow insulin to spike and fall or allow it to remain more steady throughout the day, im still burning the same amount of fat. How much fat you burn depends on the difference between your calorie intake and calories burned. Thats it. Very simple. To further add to the arguement, as you lean out your body adapts and will moderate its blood sugar levels quite well. So, carb choice is even less of a factor as your insulin sensitivity improves. You take a bodybuilder at stage-ready lean-ness and blood sugar levels do not spike and fall to any great degree. They are pretty steady throughout the day regardless of food choice.

minus truvia, I would just rather stay away from most artifical sweeteners regardless of their little effects on insulin or damage on the body (aspartame). It would be like someone putting a little battery acid in my drink and saying ...its in such small amounts you wont taste it...it wont do anything to you. Would I drink it? No. haha just my personal preference. These sweeteners really haven't been out long enough to get really good studies on.

The difference is that battery acid is very toxic even in small dosages. There arent any legit studies (to my knowledge) showing any negatives to artificial sweeteners. Every study I have read has dosages given to rats that would be equivalent to eating a 5 gallon bucket of aspartame every day. Even water is toxic at a certain level. IMOP, art sweeteners are a great alternative to sugar when counting calories. Straight sugar is such a waste of calories when leaning out......I cant bring myself to use it while dieting. Not to say there is anything wrong with dieting on straight sugar.....its just not my preference.

Well, I hate to be bro-science buster, but it just aint true. When I first began bodybuilding I ate very consciously considering GI of the carb sources. I lost fat and had decent success. Following my first competitive season I started to associate with some guys that put the emphasis on food quantity and macro ratios......and COUNTING everything to the gram. And although some importance was placed on the micronutritional side of the equation, food source was the lesser issue for these guys. Glycemic index was not even on the radar and I watched the conditioning of these guys while they dieted on Pop tarts, protein cakes, frozen yogurt, etc. And they got RIDICULOUSLY shredded. Like striations so deeply cut in their ass, you can see them through their shorts. No joke. So....i decided to try paying closer attention to the details of weighing, tracking and measuring food and less attention to food source. I regularly diet on all kinds of "taboo, insulin-spiking" foods now and I found it doesnt make a lick of difference.

Why? First off.....insulin is a highly anabolic hormone. And the more time we can spend with insulin levels high while still losing weight, the better. Yes, i know this is absolutely contrary to what most people believe about dieting. But think about the fact that many guys purposefully TRY to spike insulin post workout. Why? Insulin is anabolic. The thing is that if I eat a mound of peeled white potatoes now (very high GI) my insulin spikes faster and further than if I had a bowl of oatmeal. But the flip side to the white potato is that the insulin comes down much faster and im back to a very low level before the oats would reach that baseline. So the spike of the low GI oatmeal is lesser but its also longer and more linear.

All that to say it "all comes out in the wash". Whether I allow insulin to spike and fall or allow it to remain more steady throughout the day, im still burning the same amount of fat. How much fat you burn depends on the difference between your calorie intake and calories burned. Thats it. Very simple. To further add to the arguement, as you lean out your body adapts and will moderate its blood sugar levels quite well. So, carb choice is even less of a factor as your insulin sensitivity improves. You take a bodybuilder at stage-ready lean-ness and blood sugar levels do not spike and fall to any great degree. They are pretty steady throughout the day regardless of food choice.

Except that insulin also inhibits fat oxidation. One reason LeanGains program is so effective is by maximizing the time the body is spent in fat oxidation and then eating the same amount of daily calories that we are aiming for in what Markus coined his anabolic feeding window.

Except that insulin also inhibits fat oxidation. One reason LeanGains program is so effective is by maximizing the time the body is spent in fat oxidation and then eating the same amount of daily calories that we are aiming for in what Markus coined his anabolic feeding window.

Im going to try and say this without coming off like a jerk. Because thats not my intention. Go back and read my post. I explained why a "spike" in insulin is irrelevant in a caloric deficit. Insulin is only one small piece of the incredibly complicated puzzle. Everyone puts such an emphasis on insulin. And they put the emphasis on only one part of insulin's role in bodily function.

Im going to try and say this without coming off like a jerk. Because thats not my intention. Go back and read my post. I explained why a "spike" in insulin is irrelevant in a caloric deficit. Insulin is only one small piece of the incredibly complicated puzzle. Everyone puts such an emphasis on insulin. And they put the emphasis on only one part of insulin's role in bodily function.

Certainly and I agree that there is much more to dieting then focusing on insulin and its role in the body, however, it does have an effect on fat oxidation which has been proven by studies and therefore cannot be considered as completely irrelevant. I don't think you need your diet to revolve around it though, which is what I think you're also saying. There are many factors that go into creating a more successful diet especially for contest prep. It isn't a single variable that defines all of your success but a combination of them all.

Certainly and I agree that there is much more to dieting then focusing on insulin and its role in the body, however, it does have an effect on fat oxidation which has been proven by studies and therefore cannot be considered as completely irrelevant. I don't think you need your diet to revolve around it though, which is what I think you're also saying. There are many factors that go into creating a more successful diet especially for contest prep. It isn't a single variable that defines all of your success but a combination of them all.

Agreed. ACtually, I think insulin control is much more important whilst bulking. When our bodies are walking that line between maintenance and overage, I think a steady control over insulin might keep the fire burning in our favor. While in a calorie deficit, I think its such a minor issue that its not even worth looking at. From my understanding of the role of insulin, personal experience and the experience of other elite level competitors, food selection and insulin control is just not worth spending the time over-analyzing. I get the same results dieting on oatmeal vs. low fat ice cream. The macros are the same.....I perform and look the same.

Agreed. ACtually, I think insulin control is much more important whilst bulking. When our bodies are walking that line between maintenance and overage, I think a steady control over insulin might keep the fire burning in our favor. While in a calorie deficit, I think its such a minor issue that its not even worth looking at. From my understanding of the role of insulin, personal experience and the experience of other elite level competitors, food selection and insulin control is just not worth spending the time over-analyzing. I get the same results dieting on oatmeal vs. low fat ice cream. The macros are the same.....I perform and look the same.

Yep. Hitting your optimal macros in the caloric range is definitely the most important of all factors. I tried a much looser food selection diet while still hitting my same macros and without exceeding my predetermined caloric range and found the results to be on par, which really helps make dieting easier.

Yep. Hitting your optimal macros in the caloric range is definitely the most important of all factors. I tried a much looser food selection diet while still hitting my same macros and without exceeding my predetermined caloric range and found the results to be on par, which really helps make dieting easier.

Very interesting how we all work differently.
I use to go for simple carbs pwo - I took in so lil carbs anyway
and because of the line of thought that you need fast cho pwo -
but even with that lil amount when I switched to oats instead I got def
leaner. I hated it, because I use to really enjoy my pwo shaker when it was tasting good..

Insulin control is important if you eat by "feel" because insulin secretion has a lot to do with satiety. Most bodybuilders count their calories and macros and in that case, insulin secretion is a very minor issue.

On a bulk.....I might tend to agree with you more. But when you are in a calorie-controlled deficit, insulin is a very small player.

The level of importance is debatable but to brush it off as "irrelevant" is down playing it quite a bit

If you take a individual and feed them 2000 calories worth of strictly WMS and than another individual and feed them 2000 calories of pure WPI.. are you saying at the end of the week both would have the same body composition?

Extreme? Yes but it illustrates a point..

An out of control insulin levels will lead to a myriad of health problems from raising your triglycerides, decrease HDL, cause your blood to be more prone to clots, walls of your arteries to thicken, decreased blood flow to the heart, inflammation, tells your kidneys to hold on to salt which leads to fluid retention, constriction of artery walls, high blood pressure, insulin resistance etc.. To look at the importance of maintaining stable insulin levels as only a fat loss goal is just naive.

Now this isnt meant to attack insulin at all as it is a very important hormone but constantly bombarding yourself with insulin leads to some very serious health problems. Same goes the other way as if you were able to get rid of all the insulin in your blood than you would loose its ability to store energy in the muscle. It is about a balance.

Originally Posted by AustrianOakJr

Well, I hate to be bro-science buster, but it just aint true. When I first began bodybuilding I ate very consciously considering GI of the carb sources. I lost fat and had decent success. Following my first competitive season I started to associate with some guys that put the emphasis on food quantity and macro ratios......and COUNTING everything to the gram. And although some importance was placed on the micronutritional side of the equation, food source was the lesser issue for these guys. Glycemic index was not even on the radar and I watched the conditioning of these guys while they dieted on Pop tarts, protein cakes, frozen yogurt, etc. And they got RIDICULOUSLY shredded. Like striations so deeply cut in their ass, you can see them through their shorts. No joke. So....i decided to try paying closer attention to the details of weighing, tracking and measuring food and less attention to food source. I regularly diet on all kinds of "taboo, insulin-spiking" foods now and I found it doesnt make a lick of difference.

The GI index is flawed. Not all low GI foods will illicit a low insulin response. In fact recent research has shown us the opposite. The GI index is based on the rate of carb absorption in the blood and attempts to correlate that to an insulin response. Even without that.. you dont think by carefully calculating and measuring every macronutrient of every meal it wont control insulin levels? Furthermore you have to consider that professional bodybuilders only one end of a spectrum of exercise and what they do doesnt necessarily apply to everyone else.

Originally Posted by AustrianOakJr

Why? First off.....insulin is a highly anabolic hormone. And the more time we can spend with insulin levels high while still losing weight, the better. Yes, i know this is absolutely contrary to what most people believe about dieting. But think about the fact that many guys purposefully TRY to spike insulin post workout. Why? Insulin is anabolic. The thing is that if I eat a mound of peeled white potatoes now (very high GI) my insulin spikes faster and further than if I had a bowl of oatmeal. But the flip side to the white potato is that the insulin comes down much faster and im back to a very low level before the oats would reach that baseline. So the spike of the low GI oatmeal is lesser but its also longer and more linear.

Yes insulin is a VERY anabolic hormone BUT it also functions as a storage hormone too. Insulin is not the only anabolic hormone involved in muscle mass development. IGF-1 (Insulin-like growth factor-1) has a more prolonged effect in muscle protein synthesis

Originally Posted by AustrianOakJr

All that to say it "all comes out in the wash". Whether I allow insulin to spike and fall or allow it to remain more steady throughout the day, im still burning the same amount of fat. How much fat you burn depends on the difference between your calorie intake and calories burned. Thats it. Very simple. To further add to the arguement, as you lean out your body adapts and will moderate its blood sugar levels quite well. So, carb choice is even less of a factor as your insulin sensitivity improves. You take a bodybuilder at stage-ready lean-ness and blood sugar levels do not spike and fall to any great degree. They are pretty steady throughout the day regardless of food choice.

Yes overall weight boils down to calories in vs calories out but body composition requires a lot more attention.

And to your notion that the body will "adapt" to its constant excess level of insulin is absurd! This leads to insulin resistant. What happens is your body starts to resist insulin's effects (the shuttling of nutrients) and this leads to your body in turn releasing even more insulin and as I pointed out earlier.. excess levels of insulin circulating the blood leads to VERY VERY bad things. What your goal should be is to work towards to a high amount of insulin sensitivity. Your insulin sensitivity will dictate your muscle:fat ratio example: a typical individual might bulk and gain at a 1:2 ratio. If said individual were able to increase their insulin sensitivity then this ratio could change to a 1:1 or even a 2:1 ratio of muscle:fat.

Again this isnt against the idea of spiking your insulin levels but against the downplaying of its importance. Some individuals, especially bodybuilders will benefit from an insulin surge

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates

If you take a individual and feed them 2000 calories worth of strictly WMS and than another individual and feed them 2000 calories of pure WPI.. are you saying at the end of the week both would have the same body composition?

Well, the fact that they are two different individuals and all they are eating is carbs......your example leads me to say no. But lets take your example and bring it into reality. Take your average bodybuilder at 180 lbs and put him in a 500kcal deficit per day. 200g protein/200g carb/ 55g fat. Typical diet numbers. Feed him nothing but sweet potato for his carb source for 3 weeks and then switch him to WMS for the next three weeks. For all practical purposes, it will make no difference in his fat loss. I will grant you that the wms does not contain the micro-nutrients and phyto nutrients that the potato has so that is why I would never base a diet on ONE carb source.

Originally Posted by JudoJosh

An out of control insulin levels will lead to a myriad of health problems from raising your triglycerides, decrease HDL, cause your blood to be more prone to clots, walls of your arteries to thicken, decreased blood flow to the heart, inflammation, tells your kidneys to hold on to salt which leads to fluid retention, constriction of artery walls, high blood pressure, insulin resistance etc.. To look at the importance of maintaining stable insulin levels as only a fat loss goal is just naive.

For the general public.....I agree whole heartedly that rapidly rising and falling insulin is an issue that leads to health problems. But this is a bodybuilding forum. I never said that someone "adapts to high levels of insulin". I was trying to say that a lean bodybuilder normally has very high insulin sensitivity. Insulin sensitivity is something that can be developed as you diet and train. A bodybuilder who is sitting at 4-5% bodyfat and is extremely active and healthy has very high insulin sensitivity meaning that his body requires a very small amount of insulin to process carbohydrates. It is almost impossible to make insulin spike to any significant degree eating a normal sized dieting bodybuilder meal. Most guys do not diet on more than 50-60g of carbs per meal. Its simply not enough food to elicit a huge insulin response. Even doubling that is not really an issue. Regardless of food choice. Keep in mind I am not advocating eating cotton candy as your only carb source.....I recommend a diet based in good, quality foods. But making a huge issue of GI of carbs is just not worth the time and effort for a competitive bodybuilder. Now if we are talking about the general public regularly eating out at McD's, binging on chips and soda.....then YES I AGREE! People like should begin focusing on proper diet to get insulin swings under control. That is a great place to start for general health and wellness. I also believe insulin control becomes more important as we hover near or above maintenance calories as we "bulk" or lean bulk.

I am not a "if it fits your macros" extremist. I dont sit around eating nothing but junk food all day and I understand very clearly the role insulin plays in processing carbs and storage of fats/building and repair of muscle. However, I have a low tolerance for general bro-science and bodybuilding dogma that says we need to restrict ourselves to certain foods for maximum results. Its just total BS. I eat a wide variety of foods from brocolli and chicken to popcorn and ice cream. And I can achieve striated glutes and feathered quads while doing so.

Im going to try and say this without coming off like a jerk. Because thats not my intention. Go back and read my post. I explained why a "spike" in insulin is irrelevant in a caloric deficit. Insulin is only one small piece of the incredibly complicated puzzle. Everyone puts such an emphasis on insulin. And they put the emphasis on only one part of insulin's role in bodily function.

Finally! Someone else gets it.

Managing one's diet based on insulin levels is a piss poor approach and here is why. Firstly, insulin's action on the body is not a binary effect, meaning it is not a simple on or off. It is very dependent on actual levels. So the question I ask to all the insulin management proponents is, 'how do you monitor you insulin levels?' (here's a tip, it is rhetorical). Insulin output is in response to energy balance between food intake and energy expenditure. These are things that you can measure or monitor so adjust one while holding the other constant till you find a combination that meets your bodyweight management goals.

Insulin's behaviour and effects make for a good discussion on general health and the diabetes epidemic but is not something to design a non-anabolic assisted diet around.

As far as the original topic goes, zero calorie sweeteners cannot illicit any significant insulin response because they contain zero calories. One of the effects of insulin is to pull glucose out of the blood stream. If these zero calorie sodas did indeed produce a significant insulin response, there would have been an epidemic of people becoming hypoglycemic. Take everything you read with a grain of salt.

as a lean individual those carb meals are ok due to rises and falls in leptin. leptin is a key regulator in thermogensis and satiety.

problem with heavier individuals theres some sort of resistance.

leaner individuals have lower circulating levels of leptin and when they have the carb meals it ignites the furnace so to say which is why when some people get leaner they switch from low carb to moderate carbs and they see improvement.

also in terms of insulin

300 carb is 300 carb low glycemic or high glycemic your going to release the same amount of insulin each way. just in different times.

and hes right insulin in a state where no calories are consumed wont do much harm at all. may even promote satiety to a degree,