104 comments:

I don't give a rodent's posterior that I'll get blasted for this, and called un-patriotic (which is actually true and a good thing if you ask me): this country sucks big time pig bollix. And the people forming these idiotic groups like the Tea Party are moronic, fearful cockroaches.

It's the 21st Century and countries such as Germany, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Denmark are well on their way to innovative, modern lifestyles (Germany just posted the LOWEST unemployment rate in three decades), while we regress to 17th Century nomadic, racist/homophobic crappy existence.

Good luck with that empire thing, Amerikkka. Lookin' good from all angles.

Erin, I agree: I've been massively disheartened at the level of 'civil political debate' (or at least what's supposed to pass for it) in the US. I'm now convinced that, as a country, you'd all much rather prefer to rely on blogs (however fringe, overtly opinionated or fact-free) for your 'news' - and when you add Fox to the equation, it's not hard to see why so many Americans are either confused or downright disorientated as a direct result of the deliberate misdirection and bias masquerading as 'news'.

The laws of thermodynamics dictate: nature abhors a vacuum, and will fill it. I'm now convinced that in the vacuum of any meaningful or actual news in the US, any old crank can fill it with partisan bullshit and a sizeable chunk of the people (for lack of any worthwhile counterbalance or perspective) will lap it up and take it as Gospel, regardless of how unsubstantiated or deliberately untruthful a claim might be (cf. The Tea Party). Alas, this indicates a complete lack of any form of critical thinking; it also illustrates an appalling case of attention-span deficit (vis-a-vis the Bush years).

It's a fucking tragic state of affairs, and no mistake - and I really struggle (given what the Bush years did to the US and the wider world) with all those who seek a return to a GOP-led House after the midterms; as they are like turkeys voting for Christmas/Thanksgiving.

Greetings Erin...This country is in a real mess at the moment because it is so widely divided and so very angry...For many years (administrations), the members of government has gone so far down trying to keep themselves in power...short term solutions for problems without thinking of long term effects...infrastructure falling apart...education lacking...so many people who want from the government and not enough who are willing to take responsibility for themselves...so little of the live and let live mentality...too many "do it my way" mentality...the two party system we have is so very corrupt...the most benign things are so very important...so very sad because this country was so good...yes, how to fix it...

These actions show us that people can be dickheads who also happen to be Repubs. They are not mutually exclusive. Do I disagree with most of what they believe politically? Yes. But this has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with being horrible people.

Sometimes all I have left is Molly Ivins. She survived the Texas legislature and managed still to laugh, and to write, and to "kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight." God bless 'er.

I'm not sure there are more ill-informed or problematic people than there have been before, but there is (I think) a lot more money invested in a concerted message, much shortened fuses to the powderkeg, and more consequences. That does make things worse.

Classic Molly: ""So keep fighting for freedom and justice, beloveds, but don't forget to have fun doin' it. Be outrageous... rejoice in all the oddities that freedom can produce. And when you get through celebrating the sheer joy of a good fight, be sure to tell those who come after how much fun it was!" I need me some of that.

People can certainly be mean. I'm not sure if you can make a case for which group, Dems or Repubs, is meaner but one of the meanest things I've heard was from a representative of the New Black Panther party who encouraged followers to "kill white babies". I'm assuming he's a Dem.

Bill, no way. I'm a citizen who pays his taxes, and I'm here to bitch my fucking 1st Amendment ass off. You do know what that says, right? Just checking...you know, Ms. O'Donnell had some trouble with that one. Deal with it baby.

Could it be that our President promotes some of this aggressive rhetoric and behavior? Referring to his opponents as "enemies" as he recently did with an audience of hispanics, certainly was getting down in the gutter. Not presidential, at best.

When you have seen a family member die of aids in front of your eyes, then comments like that of Mr. McCance are painful. I only hope that karma does exist and pays him an unfortunate visit. What an ASSHOLE.

Bill and Erin: I'm not sure the rhetoric will die away after the midterms - especially in House retaken by a Tea Party-driven-resurgent GOP.

Why would it? You've already seen two years' worth of the Party of No (GOP) making it a point of policy and honour to stymie just about every piece of legislation either Obama or the Dem's have brought to the floor. Why, when they've retaken and hold the whip-hand in the House, and reduced the Dem's number of seats in the Senate, would that position change?

Judy, above, mentioned: "[America's] standing in the world view...". Not being an American, but having lived and worked there, all I can say is that the rest of the world had an extremely hard time taking you, your politicians and your president seriously under the eight disastrous years of that hick functional illiterate, Bush jnr. We foreigners now wait, with not a little trepidation, to see what these worryingly uneducated, knee-jerk, sound-byte-driven Tea Party automatons will do when they ascend to seats in the majority party in the House.

cosmic: "...the rest of the world had an extremely hard time taking you, your politicians and your president seriously..."

Is the "rest of the world" happy about how fucked up they are? Do they love their immigration problems? Do they feel safe? Are they thrilled with the suicide bombers, drug cartel murders, etc.? Are they now sending back US dollars that we shower them with?Just curious.

Yeah, Joy wasn't even funny. I always give comedians a pass on their political views if they're funny like Daily, Mahr, Chris Rock. I like Dennis Miller too. But I don't think Joy Behar is very funny or very smart.

Cosmic Navel Lint...Exactly what I'm talking about...This country is falling so far behind while the rest of the world is moving forward...I don't know how so many people are becoming so backward and confused...Scary because I have to live with it...

There have always been assholes. They just never had so many options for making their views public.Even though I live in Tennessee I'm no Andy Jackson fan (See: Trail of Tears) However, his opponents in the election of 1828 called his wife Rachel a whore and she died shortly before his inauguration. Jackson blamed her death on his opponents.

I no longer believe meaningful change is possible through the current political process. But if you want to make a shit load of money, become a political consultant.

As for the rest of us we still have mass action as an alternative. A general strike a la the french would be a good place to start.

RJ: You can get La Raza, Acorn, SEIU, NEA and several other like minded groups to have a whine fest just like the French. Then you can get msnbc to lie about how many people attended. Then you can wait two days and see that absolutely nothing has happened except that Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton go some more face time on the networks that no one watches.

You no longer believe that meaningful change is possible through the current political process? Have you heard of the tea party movement?

Bill wrote: cosmic: "...the rest of the world had an extremely hard time taking you, your politicians and your president seriously..."

Is the "rest of the world" happy about how fucked up they are? Do they love their immigration problems? Do they feel safe? Are they thrilled with the suicide bombers, drug cartel murders, etc.? Are they now sending back US dollars that we shower them with?Just curious.

Hey Bill, is there actually a question or a point in any the above tirade, or is avoiding any form of national criticism your natural retort? Just appears like a 'ner-ner-ner-ner-ner' response. Nice attempt at deflection, but you just sound like your garden variety 'My Country: right or wrong' merchant; seemingly incapable of answering the criticism levelled at you in any other way than to toss back a spite grenade.

PS: this US habit of ending meandering non sequiturs with the now painfully clichéd "just saying", and "just curious" just illustrates the weakness of the position of the person using such a useless device. It fails as an instrument of sarcasm and can't even pass the entrance exam of satirical counterpoint.

Hey Bill, I noticed you were trolling for kneejerk responses by citing the played out youtube video of an idiot in Philadelphia spewing about killing white babies and crackers.

This fool was roundly denounced by thinking folks everywhere. He is no more a representative of any valid movement than are the fools who take him seriously. There were five all told in this "movement".

In my town we call em fakin jamaicans. They get all riled up but it is just more Kabuki theater of the poverty pimps.

Don't try to pass that goofy shit off as the meanest thing you've ever heard. WTF?, you live at Disneyworld? Or the mall.

Good comment on this video from politisite.com:

" I’d like to kill some Crackers too. Box of saltine crackers, light glazing of olive oil, toss in a zip lock back with ranch seasoning and crushed red pepper. Shake that bitch up and enjoy. You’ll be killing those Crackers all night."

3/4 of the jobs lost in Ohio over the last few years are do to outsourcing. The Dems proposed a bill that would give tax incentives to companies producing jobs here, while rolling back the incentives for sending jobs overseas. All of the Repubs voted against it. Last winter 7 Repub senators, including John McCain, proposed a bill called "pay-go" Any government spending must be paid for. As soon as Pres. Obama said he liked all Repubs voted against it. What is the #1 goal of the Repubs for the next two years? Job Creation? Economy? Infrastucture? No! According to Mitch McConnell: "To make Obama a one term president.

After spending a campaign and then two years making Pres. Obama out to be evil, satan, socialist, they can't compromise with him. No without their base thinking they are working with the devil.

How in the hell can people who vote against jobs for Americans do anything for this country.

Repubs will probably score big hits Nov. 2, buty if they keep on their same path 2012 will go Dem!

Hey Bill, I'm a state gov't worker and I don't have health insurance. So, your insinuating that I'm taking advantage of Obamacare is pretty much dead in the water. By the by, can you explain to me briefly (brevity rules my man) exactly what the fuck this 'healthcare bill" actually does for people? And how it's negatively affecting YOU? Because, from all the hours I've invested in reading the 1000+ pages, it doesn't do SHIT for anyone except Big Pharma--which is supported by the likes of you, I assume (note: ASSUME).

Also, Bill...stop and listen to the foreigners who basically are saying the same thing about perception in the world of the U.S. It's time to believe you're the greatest in the world, and figure out that we're part of a global economy. The U.S. is beginning to not matter anymore...watch China. Every time it farts, we panic. Why? Because they literally own us. Watch us bitch every other day on how they devalue their currency. We moan and bitch and throw tantrums.

This is the United States in the 21st Century. Ruled by a bunch of fucking illiterates with guns. The recipe for a world leader, indeed.

Check it out. All of those who have gone down with the ship, as their empire was declining, have screamed the loudest about how strong they were. History, yo. History.

The dude from Arkansas does an interview with Anderson Cooper...its posted to CNN. Unreal that he would say those things, but...fairly ballsy to be on national TV with AC a few days later.

BTW, it's not the bullying isn't the problem. Kids have been bullied forever. Not that bullying is ok, but as variables go, that one is pretty constant over time. What unreal to me is that kids have suicide anywhere in their worldview as an option. While blaming the media has become too easy an explanation for everything these days, there's prolly something to it in this case. Nonetheless, when an 11 or 12 year old takes their own life, we got bigger social problems than bullying.

But, my friend, take a look at your arguments. They are very thin and very angry. They are also very much akin to most of what we hear from the right these days. I walk 15-30 miles a week and I listen to politics the whole time.

I keep waiting for the smart righties.

But when you have George Will defending poor little-lost-girl Christine O'Donnell (and for the record, that Gawker "One Night Stand" bit sounds like TRIPE to me), why, that is saying something.

Per Videodude: Mitch McConnell's "get-Obama" agenda looks a lot like a lynching to me.

EOB, that Gawker piece is as shite as shite can get. I always half ass respected George Will (particularly in the 80s when his commentary seemed to have some sort of logic), but per the typical, cliched script: as he got older, he got more conservative, and somehow became dumber. And if not...if he's doing this out of party loyalty, he's even more of a moron than can possibly be fathomed.

In general, "conservative" sticks to, or aims to preserve the status quo. By that definition, I was never, and can never be one. I am not ever EVER interested in keeping the status quo; my ideas not only change with the amount of information and education that I gather as I live now into my 42nd year (my 31st here in this country), they NEED to change. They need to be elastic. I encounter different people with different experiences almost every day of my life; I cannot ever imagine stagnating and staying aligned with one set of beliefs. And that goes triple for religion.

Anyway...given the present climate in this country, and my career within the academic field (testing and formative assessment) I am truly sorry that my 6 yr. old daughter is being educated in this country's school system. Had I known what America was to become, I'd have never considered having her here, and instead emigrated.

Erin: You may consider my comments (arguments) to be "thin". I'm just doing off the cuff replies to what I read. It may be too late for me to "get smart" but when I read the thread I do understand the smarter comments. Most of them just don't ring true with me. As far as my remarks being angry; this just isn't so. I do detect some serious anger in the thread and won't mention names but it's pretty obvious. You're right about standing alone. Might just change my ID to Tillamook!

swine: I have no idea what the Obamacare bill is going to do. I was just making a bad joke about how you can treat your anger and anxiety. Also, I don't know if the USA is the best place on earth. It's just the best place (still) for me and my family. I have a few friends from other countries and they feel the same way about their homelands.

Hey, as an immigrant (legal) to this country and a naturalized citizen, let me ask a fair question. I had to take and pass a citizenship test to be part of this country and vote. Why can't we have one of those to all people who wish to vote. This way, I won't have to worry about dumbfecks pulling the lever and not having any idea how far Russia is or what the 1st amendment says. I am angry...I am angry at how glib this country has turned in the 30 years I've lived here.

Bill, you're right in that certain systems/countries work for certain people. This one worked for me from the years 1979-1995-ish. It certainly didn't work for me from years 2000-present.

I am fundamentally LESS concerned with the size of a government I am free to elect, than the political influence and daily life dominance of a multinational corporation intent on patenting life (see Monsanto and seeds) for example, and wiping out the competition...a corporation which tries to interfere and dictate my life, without me even being a shareholder.

During the healthcare debacle I just shrugged and laughed at the stupid slogan: "You don't want a politician to get between you and your doctor" when the reality was/is: A CEO OF A COMPANY gets in between you and your doctor every day. I'd rather have an elected politician than a CEO which most of us have no power to un-seat.

So you're right...this country no longer works for me and my family; unfortunately we have to hang out here until my kid is out of high school (and realistically college) before we can think about going to where we'd like.

Sad but true. I once loved this country and believed in it. That has evaporated over three decades. Fundamental decisions being made by this country have been atrocious and have put most of us in the poorhouse. And yet we never seem to learn. The banks HAD to bailed out--I know it sucks, but in a Central Banking system like ours (and most of the world's), that's the evil with which we have to contend. We have to bail out the parasites--because that's how we've set up our financial system. The Federal Reserve is a piece of shit. There's nothing Federal about it. It's a private bank. If you set up a central banking system and your banks begin to fail, you HAVE to bail them out. That's just the reality. I hate it as much as you, probably...but I understand that's the system.

It is an interesting thread and it shows that everyone is angry for one reason or another.

As much flak as Bill takes, I appreciate that he comes here and stands in the minority. I also appreciate the way people keep things polite no matter how much tempers flare--at least for the most part.

I detest the flame-fests I see on other sites, the vitriolic name calling. Also, when admin peeps just delete comments they don't agree with, I find that deplorable. Just ran into that on a rightie site.

It's not your, or my America, Erin (and hopefully not the America of everyone else). It's today's Republican Party, and the conservative movement that is fueling it.

Having said that, let me make what I think is a very important distinction between conservatism and the conservative movement, because I think there is a huge difference. In fact, it's almost the difference between night and day.

Conservatism is an honorable philosphy that goes back centuries, and I would dare say that many liberals and progressives might actually sympathize with some parts of it - especially personal responsibility and freedom, lower taxes, free markets, etc.

The conservative movement is, in my very humble view, a very cynical, divisive, and anti-intellectual movement whose primary aim right now is regaining and keeping power at almost any cost. Truth be damned.

Witness Mitch McConnell's moment of unintentional candor when he said he wants to be Senate Majority Leader in order to make President Obama a "one term president."

Witness Fox "News" becoming as bald a propaganda arm of the GOP as it's ever been (ie Murdoch donating millions to GOP candidates; four individuals thought to be GOP front runners in the 2012 currently employed as Fox "News" "Contributors."

Witness Fox "News," the GOP and the Tea Party's very tepid (to be kind) attempts to control extremists within their ranks (racially charged signs at teabagger rallies, a whole host of polticians and tea party leader espousing or tacitly endorsing conspiracy theorists such as the birthers, openly anti-Muslim rhetoric, etc. etc. etc)

The US has always been a deeply divided nation; it was founded through violent rebellion and in many ways came of age during the civil war. Considering the historical backdrop maybe its not so surprising that the national politics is so partisan.

I think that what's different now is that politicians no longer serve the people; they rule, and so they no longer engage in real debate, instead they chase headlines with displays of false-outrage in order to gain power.

Wow, lots of comments on this one already... I'll have to come back to read this a bit later.

We should build a wall across America. We'll call it the "Great Wall of America" and it will help separate the north from the south. Or, maybe the left from the right. Or, no... wait.. maybe it can go diagonally, and we can have a mix of the four extremes.

I like to think that I have a lot of tolerance, but it's easier to feign ignorance and pretend that I hate all people rather than make an attempt to be a good American. I feel shame for this country at times, and am shamed by it...

Maybe that's why I live at the southwestern most corner. It'll be easier to escape going this way...

The issue I have with "conservatism" is as you say, Hal: it goes back centuries. CENTURIES. Many many things are different now than hundreds of years ago. The notion of "competition" within capitalism is bollix. The aim of a corporation is not to compete--but to monopolize. Competition is good for the consumer, sure, but where's the competition when Wal-Mart moves in? Or Lowe's? Where's the competition when I drive a strip of road and see on either side no fewer than 4 gas stations, all with the same price per gallon of gas.

When people en masse realise that basically what we're looking at within capitalism is corporate domination, maybe we'll have a start to a sobering wake up. I don't know which system works best overall. For me, I have no issues with Socialism. Having said that, I will say: I'm pissed at paying as high taxes (for my income bracket) as my Canadian wife was paying back before we were married and she was living in Toronto (by the way, she was then in the same salary bracket I'm in now). Yet she was seeing so much more for her money.

I have no problems paying high taxes, if in return I see good infrastructure, good education, good social security, good healthcare. We're paying for shit right now. So, as a liberal socialist, I do understand/sympathize/even agree w/the people screaming for lower taxes. Because right now, as I'm paying out almost 30% of my gross, I see nothing being done with it. Financing bullshit wars in the middle east, financing a bulsshit "war on drugs" at home.

Anyway, maybe it's time to tweak our philosophies--since they're centuries old. I'm not one to follow anything for too long--as times (especially now) change quickly. So when the fucking Founding Fathers are telling me it's my god given right to own arms, I realize that they were dealing with English invaders roaming around, burning shit down. But I cannot, as a thinking man, apply that now in the 21st Century. Sure, I know it's too late and that many people will be armed to defend themselves; I'm just bringing up an example.

The Brilliant Founding Fathers also had slaves. I take what they wrote/set down w/a grain of salt. Sure, those were the times...but as a fairly cerebral person, I weigh the "owning slaves" issue when I look at the Constitution or what they wrote or what they set up.

We're all flawed; and this is exactly why I advocate staying loose, liberal, elastic, and not fearful of anything. We change with the times, and the times are speeding by quickly nowadays.

Bill, I don't think the conservative movement are horrible human beings. Heck, some of my best friends are conservatives. ;

Seriously, though, one good thing I can say about them is how amazing it is that it has been able to unify a lot of people and revive the GOP when many people reasonably believed it was on life support after 2008. And I'm sure there are a lot of decent, hard working people who are committed to it's goals. However - and I'm sorry to say this - that is outweighed by the cynicism with which it's leaders have done this. Conservatism has plenty of good ideas and strong arguments which should be able to appeal to people on it's own merits without appealing to people's baser instincts. Unfortunately, the movement has been hijacked by people whose behavior suggests they are concerned with regaining and keeping power first and foremost. Truth, facts, and logic be damned.

Bill: That can only be constructive if one of those instincts is understanding facts. But that isn't happening now. Facts and logic don't lead one to conclude that Obama is a secret Muslim, that he was born outside the US, that he is both a Marxist and a Fascist at the same time, that he is destroying the economy on purpose, that he is going to form a private army, that "Obamacare" will kill the elderly and other "less desirables," that he is a racist who "hates white culture," that there is a "Muslim problem," that the proposed Park51 Islamic Communty Center is actually a "Victory Mosque" scheduled to open on the tenth anniversary of 9/11, or any other conspiracy theory Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly, and other radio talk show hosts, as well as Fox "News" has advanced.

Hal: It's not conspiratorial that the adminsistrations economic policies are doing irreparable damage. It's not conspiratorial that the mosque is to be named the Cordoba Mosque. It's not conspiratorial that Obamacare will cost more than promised and that it will mandate rationing. It's not conspiratorial that every terrorist attack, since McVey, has been the work of Muslims. I guess ignoring the facts can lead you to an entirely different conclusion. Caution is an instinct I use often. I will give you eloquent, though.

RJ: It takes you a day or so to google your facts. If you were in a debate without access to the internet or reference material, you'd be weak. I'm not impressed. I'm here for entertainment and I'm never disappointed. We DO have a Muslim problem and NOT a Paz y Justica problem. Who has time to give every detail here? An impulse normally happens quickly. It's not your implulse control that you're losing. It's your temper. Ha! I like to reply quickly, off the top of my head. I admit that sometimes I miss some facts. So what. As long as E allows it, I'll continue to read, enjoy, comment.

Philbilly: We're commenting on a blog, not dueling. Don't worry. I don't carry. By the way. I liked the way you compared the dude saying "kill white babies" to somene eating (killing) soda crackers. Head in the sand much?

Bill: information to be sorted through, education, research, takes some time. It's ok to do that in order to construct a cerebral argument. I see your dig at "googling for 24 hours straight" analogous to "education is elitist." It's sad when the sentiment in this country about education is equated with elitism and separation. Even in my shitty almost third-world country of Romania education is coveted and valued. This country thinks it's elitist. This country takes pride now in being ill-educated, mis-informed. The tired old excuse for bad grammar and mis-spelling of words: "it's a typo." It's very sad.

When you threw out that dig about taking a day to google information, I just shook my head: you basically insinuated that it's a bad thing to actually pause, research, think, THEN make your argument. It's sad, but your attitude reflects what I find one of the ugliest sentiments in this country. And...coming from a communist country, I can categorically attest for the fact that un-educated masses are the easiest to manipulate and call to arms.

I won't suggest anything to anyone, but I truly hope that sometime in the future Americans will place value in education and the time invested in research in order to construct a logical argument.

Maybe another generation, but highly doubtful. Today's kids are being raised by parents fearful of Muslims, war, terrorism, who think it's worth announcing on Facebook or Twitter what's for dinner, or when they go have a shite in the bathroom. I don't hold mUCH hope for the kids coming up, but I do have some.

swine: it's not pracitcal, during a normal conversation, to say "wait. let me research that". And you call that "one of the ugliest sentiments in this country"? I find your exageration laughable. Also, I guess we have another muslim (excuse me. extremest muslim) terror plot to worry about with the parcel bomb situation.

Bill, I am referring to THIS argument, here. In writing. Not in real time conversation. You took a dig at the commenter for actually WAITING and researching before joining this conversation. Why is that a bad thing?

Anyway, if I want to witness cerebral debate, I'll turn to the dozens of encounters between Hitchens and the various people he's debated all over the country over the past decade or so, documented on youtube or in transcripts. That you find my alarm at this "let's get dumb and stay dumb and call educated people elitist" sentiment laughable, sort of definitively underscores my point, you know 'um sayin, shorty?

As far as this "new threat" is concerned, you can get your panties all up in a knot about it...this shit is here with us for. EVER. If you're truly concerned w/terrorism, you'd worry about some fucko going into your corner Safeway/Harris Teeter/Wal-Mart with a machine gun and taking out a handful of people. THAT is a real threat.

Having these TSA dudes who make 10 bucks an hour making me take off my shoes and justifying that as "keeping the skies safer" is a fucking joke dude. And a horrendous amount of money pissed into the wind. Money that this country doesn't have.

By the by, just to make it clear: I'm a liberal, yes, but I am pulling all the way for Congress to extend the Bush era tax cuts to families like mine (making $73K/year). We literally are living paycheck to paycheck now, and cannot afford to bring home $250/month less.

So, there you go; I'm a "fair and balanced" person. Nah...maybe not, but I am as logical and practical person as I can be at this time.

Erin: I'm not afraid. I am very appreciative, though, that this plot was discovered before more people were killed by muslim extremists.

Swine: I really like Chrisopher Hitchens. But, as you know, the Mensa Society or Organization, doesn't select our politicians. I think you and RJ would like that. I understand Hitchens is very ill. I know he doesn't want people praying for him but I wish him well.

Well done, Bill. You've recognized the specious technique of the strawman argument.

On head in the sand, I have specific and unusual insight into the way law enforcement works when dealing with whackjobs like Shabaz. I have lived and worked deep inside the most dangerous streets in America for decades. Nobody can tell me shit about the hood and how the poverty industry works. I have my own opinion on why Holder buried the investigation, and I'll keep it to myself.

All the hijacked planes, the attempted package bombs from Yemen, haven't damaged the US as much as the policies of the last 60 years of partisan lobby-bought administrations.Including Rumsfeld's mad rush to demonstrate "force transformation" using Iraq as a test bed. After the unraveling in 2006, force transformation was quietly abandoned as a strategy and Rumsfeld was sacked.We've been sold out across the board, the deal is done, and it dishonors all of the 9/11 victims and their families tobicker over this partisan bullshit.

Like it or not, it has been so easy to live and work in the US for most folks, they have been able to abdicate critical thinking. Witness the guy the other day I was speaking with. He made a crack about the French, and I told him that the French celebrate our Veteran's Day there across the country, with huge events in about 20 major cities, including Paris. They treat Allied Vets like royalty. He was astonished, didn't really believe me. But his knowledge of the "cheese eating surrender monkeys" came from the tube.

philbilly: I talk with lots of people but have yet to meet an adult who is not aware of France's gratitude toward the USA and the sacrifices this country made. That doesn't mean that one has to to appreciate some of the whimpy French ways.

Bill and Philbilly, I've not met a single American person who speaks overall favorable of the French. I really have no idea what Americans' beef with the French is...but I can say this: the French may very well be indebted to American allies (as they should), but they really don't give a rat's ass what WE think of them--especially in these times.

Their daily lives, overall, are much better, much more fulfilling than ours--they don't hold things such as granite countertops and stainless steel appliances important in quality of life And they dig the fact that we're baffled as to why they smoke, drink, eat cheese, desserts, eat fatty rabbit, and still live longer. It may have something to do with reduced amounts of stress, I don't know. I don't live there, but I'd love to. And also, a shitload of Frogs (that I know) don't even want to VISIT the United States, much less live here. Such an attitude surely cannot come from a people who loathe their own country (despite the massive strikes which, by the way, I totally respect--who the fuck wants to work 'till they're 67 yrs old and get a shitty "pension" of a bit over a grand a month? The Frogs got it right, although austerity measures will definitely pass there). The French may act outraged, but they love living in France. Benefits abound, despite austerity measures. At least compared to what we get. The life of a middle class family here ($50K/year or less) is quite shitty, if you ask me. There's nothing colorful about commuting to a crappy, low-paying, no benefits job (if you're lucky to have one), putting in 9 hours, commuting back, making some shitty dinner out of a box, and watching American Fucking Idol before you conk out. I'm stereotyping here, but you get the point. They call them stereotypes for a reason. With a few variations here and there, this is basically the lifestyle of every middle class person I've ever known in my 30 years of living here.

Given a choice between hanging out with the Frogs or the Yanks, I'm going with the former. Every Frog I've ever met has been well travelled, happy, well educated, and has a zest for life and for meeting people and experiencing the world, not ever encountered in the States.

The aim of the French is to work as little as possible, and go on holiday. I'm down with that man. I don't give a shit about big homes, fancy cars, lots of closet space, gigantic/modern kitchens, huge master baths, etc. etc. That's all crap anyway; ever see how they build those McMansions? Out of fucking plywood. They can keep their master suites made out of plywood for a million or two; I'm hopping a train and using up my Eurorail pass.

swine: I'm glad you brought up the fact that they don't give a rats ass what we think. You can put me in the camp that doesn't give a rats ass what they think of us. Are their daily lives much better and much more fulfilling than ours? Speak for yourself. I live in a great place, have a pretty big house, nice landscaping, have great neighbors (lots of limousine liberals actually), and it's very safe. The reason the French don't have the shit we have is because they can't afford it. They travel because they don't want to sit around in their crappy little apartments. they're just now running out of other peoples money and realiziing that they can't continue with the nanny government. I don't know who you hang out with but there are plenty of people around here who love France, the French, and everything franco. They still have their kids learn French in the charter schools. Your stereotyping, and mine, of the French and the Americans is ludicrous. I hear that train pulling into the station. All aboard!

Your big house and your nice neighbors don't necessarily mean "a nice lifestyle" to some people. I'm one of them. A nice lifestyle for me would be the opportunity and financial means to travel abroad every two months or so for about 10 days at a time. Everything else doesn't matter. My 1500 sq. ft. house does the same job as yours-- likely more efficiently (utilities). My "regular" countertops don't crumble when I cut shit on them, or cook on them. So the granite basically what? Looks nice? Costs more? What? My tiny closet serves the same function as your gigantic walk in. My clothes still hang there in an orderly fashion.

All the Europeans I know travel because they're interested, they're curious, they love to see art, eat foreign food, and they don't feel uncomfortable when they can't find the nearest Olive Garden or Macaroni Grill. All the Europeans I know (I have family in: Romania, Germany, Norway, as well as friends in: France, Switzerland, Germany, Italy, and Austria, and as far east as Japan) don't have crappy apartments...in fact many of them own single family homes, many of them are physicians, and all of them shun the typical American McMansion in favour of travel two or three times a year, 2 weeks or so at a time. They seem infinitely happier than all of my American friends and my American family.

My wife is a Canadian citizen who laughs at what we call "healthcare." The reason she and I are reluctant to go back to Toronto is because that fuckwad Stephen Harper is pushing to change Canada to what the U.S. is now. His hero is George W.

You may THINK the train is leaving the station, but you're wrong. Rail system in the U.S. sucks balls, and so ain't no train leaving for anywhere. Let me know when that ocean liner sails though; I got my trunks packed.

It's not conspiratorial that the adminsistrations economic policies are doing irreparable damage.

This is a legitimate argument. Some commentators (Beck, Limbaugh, to name two, but there have been more) have suggested, however, that this is being done on purpose, citing something called the "Cloward and Piven Strategy," which has been widely debunked, even by conservatives. That is the heart of conpiracy and fear mongering.

It's not conspiratorial that the mosque is to be named the Cordoba Mosque.

It may not be conspiratorial, but it is dishonest to call it a "mosque," because it is not a mosque. It's even worse to call it a "Victory Mosque," because that appeals to anti-Muslim fear and ignorance based on a grotesque distortion of history. It is true, however, that it was going to be called "Cordoba House," at first, and in response to the mostly manufactured outcry at the hands of people like Newt Gingrich, and a disgusting whackjob named Pamela Geller, it was changed to Park51. Fear won on that one.

It's not conspiratorial that Obamacare will cost more than promised and that it will mandate rationing.

Arguing that Obamacare may end up increasing costs is fair game. But citing "death panels" and rationing without acknowledging that private insurance companies have been doing this for a long time is also misleading and dishonest.

It's not conspiratorial that every terrorist attack, since McVey, has been the work of Muslims.

I will give a hat tip to RJ for detailing a list of terrorist attacks committed since OKC that were not the responsibility of Muslims. I will only add the skinhead who murdered three police officers in Pittsburgh, fearing they were going to take his guns away, the murder of George Tiller (see Bill "Tiller the Baby Killer" O'Reilly. Also see "Randall Terry"), and the Christian militia group in Michigan that had plotted to murder state troopers (I believe) thinking it would ignite a revolution, and were thankfully thwarted. I will also add militia groups like the Oathkeepers, who reach out to active duty military personnel and police, urging them to sign on to an "oath" that they will not follow unconstitutional orders...such as closing off cities and converting them into giant concentration camps. Really, that is one of their oaths. This and other orders they will not obey are here

I guess ignoring the facts can lead you to an entirely different conclusion. Caution is an instinct I use often. I will give you eloquent, though.

Caution is one thing. Irrational fear and outright paranoia are entirely different, and the conservative movement and it's willing accomplices in the Republican Party (Palin, Gingrich) and among the usual suspects (talk radio, Fox "News") have pandered to this in the most shameless ways imaginable.

Swine: I can see where some people might want to live in a cracker box and ride around on a crowded train for a couple of months. Seriously though, I have friends from Austria, Argentina, Mexico, Brazil, Bolivia,Iran and a couple other countries. Most of them (including the Iranian) love their countries but have either immigrated here or come here a lot. I love my country. But, I think I'll love it a little more on Nov 3.

Hal: I like your attempted fisking! But I'm not impressed when one uses the term "widely debunked" to drive their point home. You and RJ do have a fiskable point on the muslim terrorist issue but if you ask 10 people to name a terrorist group.. well you get my drift. Thanks for using the word fisk. I like it. I did have to look up the meaning though. I was sure it had a sexual connotation but was, thankfully, wrong. Finally, irrationsl fear and paranoia do not litter my life.

Hey Bill, aside from Austria, the countries in which your friends live (Argentina, Iran, Bolivia) have uh....SLIGHTLY different issues (political freedom, economic hardship) than the ones I mention. I can especially see why your buddy in Iran would want to emigrate here; the regime in Iran is not really much different than what Ceausescu had set up in Romania (people being oppressed, people disappearing, being killed by secret police, etc).

I have given you examples of daily life in Sweden, Switzerland, Germany, Norway, and you compare it with life in Bolivia and Iran. Do you not see the difference?

Again, this may be a difference in what's important to you and me in daily life. You may not recognize that. Your condescension when you talk about "cracker boxes" or "shitty apartments" reads particularly funny as Americans are losing their homes, their jobs, their families, and some their lives, literally.

As you tend to talk down to people whose priorities are different than yours, I am inclined to stereotype right back people like you.

But in a way, it's all right; people like you NOT travelling all around the world and instead sitting pretty in your large homes with your large flat screens watching football on Sundays, are a handful fewer typical, loud, fat Americans people like me have to deal with in airports or on flights.

So there ya go. Have a great life on your sectional couch dude. And don't forget to go to the State Fair and eat fried chicken shit on a stick. 'Cause you know, that's the ol' American way. Viva.

swine: LOL! I haven't been called fat, loud and condescending in a while. (btw, I did say I was inappropriately stereotyping) I just returned from the gym so I'm working on the fat thing. I guess I don't have friends from the correct countries? Don't all countries have "uh, slightly different issues"?

philbilly: right back atcha!

E: I had some rabbit once. It tasted like chicken. I liked it. But that's before I knew it was a french dish.

Bill, of course all gob-mints have issues; I just find it weird that I'm talking about lifestyles in Sweden/Finland/Norway/Denmark/Germany/France, and you come back at me with examples from Iran/Bolivia/Argentina. That's basically trying to compare diametrically-opposed fruit.

I would expect someone living under the ultra-conservative Iran clerical regime to wanna get the feck outta there.

Bolivia has been plagued by economic instability, wars (see the MNR, still active as a political party), and election fraud since 1951.

Life in Argentina even now ain't no picnic (remember the Falkland Islands war?), despite its status as a major non-NATO ally. It just recently got out of a major stagflation that lasted, I think from '75 to the late 90s. I know, I had a buddy who lived there, as well. In 2001 its economy basically collapsed and by '02 it defaulted on its debt and unemployment grew to over 25%. There are huge issues w/corruption both in gob-mint and private sector, so I see how people, overall, would want to come to the States, if given the chance.

I just can't figure why you're stacking those countries up to make your argument. Weird.

I hate to see this thread die. Swine: I don't know where, in the US, you live but, since you seem to be pretty unhappy, have you considered moving to a different part of the country? I think, for example, that you'd love the socialist tendencies here in California. Property values have really dropped and will probably drop further after today's election results. We're going to be really, really, green to! What do you think? I can recomment a good realtor.

Bill that IS funny. It's why I don't attend pinhead rallies of any kind.

I'll take a pass on CA; I briefly lived in L.A. in the early 90s and I couldn't stand people from that area. Based on friendships I have with people living in northern Cali and southern Oregon and the Seattle area, I don't reckon I'd like living there either. I don't dig extremists of any sort, left or right. I feel nervous in any place that is too homogeneous--again, left or right.

Presently I live in the Triangle Area of North Carolina--it's actually quite a nice mix of libs and conservatives, smart Phd types and rednecks, blacks and whites and latinos, asians, and Indians/Pakistanis/Afghani peoples. Out of the several metro areas in which I've lived (Wash. DC, Cleveland, Palm Beach, and Los Angeles) over the last 30 years, I find myself feeling quite comfy here.

"No nation is permitted to live in ignorance with impunity." --Thomas Jefferson: Virginia Board of Visitors Minutes, 1821. ME 19:408

Yeah, well, I voted today, always quick, no line, nice ladies with the little wet sponge dishes to help them flip throught the registration tomes. Which leads me to ax a question;"Where the hell were you people?"

At this current state of atrophy, I consider the act of voting primarily symbolic in terms of effecting the public well-being, the game is rigged bad and polluted by too much money. I'm not the least bit concerned with outcomes one way or the other in general because ultimately I control my fortune. I have access to lawyers, guns, land and money just like the fat cats. The true power of the US is all the little piles of cash the IRS gathers. We the working stiffs will be there while the money changers squander and the poverty industry metastasizes.Day in and day out, paying the fucking bills. And the sooner we retake control of the cash flow, the sooner we'll be back on track per the Constitution.

But shit man, people have died to be able to vote.

I know lot of people probably had legit reasons to blow it off, life sucks sometimes. But the rest ofya?

I rather like they typo of Newt having taken control in 1884--it's about the right place in history to jive with his beliefs and politics.

Meh, in any case...that "majority" in the house just means more entrenched gridlock.

Philbilly, I didn't vote, but it sorta sucks for you to call us douchebags...part of the rights given to me as a citizen is NOT voting.

Frankly, I'm no longer wasting my time with any of these fucking bozos--left or right, it's really all the same. The same way Obama couldn't pass shit through Congress when he had the majority, is the same way nothing of note will get done now. What makes us think shit will flow now?

In the current state of partisan politics, when a "majority" constitutes 51 or 52% or even 54%, not much will pass. Shit will be so watered down that it won't really affect any of us in the middle class.

I had a glimmer of hope 2 yrs ago, but not with Obama himself...with Congress. I truly believed Congress would compromise. Nyyyope. As expected, they closed ranks and circled the wagons even tighter.

To anyone who truly believes he/she makes a difference by voting, I am sad to say: you're lying to yourselves.

You don't own this country, multinational corporations do.

A better course of action would be to try to get yourselves into the upper echelons inhabited by CEOs, and then you'll have a start in actually influencing government.

The rest of us are schlubs who are lucky to be making our mortgage payments.

I vote because my generation demanded the 26th Amendment, and we got it.

I vote because of the blood shed for the 13th amendment.

I vote because black folks got the shit beat out of them by Bull Connor for defending their franchise.

I vote because one of my best friends, a true Liberal, marched with King and spent time in jail with him.

I vote because the racist self indulgent sons and daughters of those same black folks have forgotten, disavowed, that we whites were on their parents' side, and I love the snarling disdain and disrespect with which my big burly white ass is greeted when I lumber into my polling place, every fucking time. Right back atcha, homies, not going away any time soon, donchyaknow.

I vote because the racist self indulgent white sons and daughters of the Middle Class have their panties in a bunch because our President is a mulatto. A Christian American mulatto.

I vote because the franchise must be preserved until enough people return to their senses and take back the government.

And you're exactly right, we must sieze the helms of the corporations, by being the corporations. And driving the market with our consumptive choices. Make no mistake, this digital machine is more powerful than any gunpowder, and we haven't even seen the tip of that revolutionary iceberg yet.

So I'll cut you no slack on this, even as I really appreciate your insights.

I would have rather you walked in, wrote "Fuck You" on the ballot, and then had a whiskey.(21st Amendment)

I couldn't do that on the ballots in North Carolina. I wanted to vote and hand in a blank ballot (apparently, writing obscenities is a no-no in North Carolina and gets you in a bit of hot water w/the authorities), but the machines don't tabulate blank ballots, and wouldn't have counted the vote.

You vote for excellent reasons. I also choose not to vote for excellent reasons, as well. Sadly, the Progressives have lost one of their own, but I'm sure they'll do just fine without me.

On corporations: when American consumers realise how much power we have, and decide to show the boys in the boardroom by exercising it (not buying shit), we'll have a start.

But most, if not all people I know, in this country, aren't willing to give up ANYTHING. It's like, Americans have become the biggest pussies on earth. I'm Eastern European; we fucking did without heat in winter, or hot water (one day per week of hot water), without food...fucking Americans start giving out static when there's no milk at the grocery store, or when their AC unit conks out for 6 or 7 hours during July.

You can't possibly ask Americans to go without ANYTHING that's comfortable in their lives--so my dreams of influencing corporations as consumers are just that. Dreams.

This nation used to be tough as shit...people were strong, they got through the depression eating beans or bread. What the feck has happened? All we do now is whine when our cable goes out in a storm.

Swine: what would you propose that Americans give up to make them tougher. I hear what you're saying, that making it through tough times makes you tougher. The poorest people in the US have cell phones, color TV's, cable, emergency room health care, food stamps. I recently had a conversation with a 45 year old guy complaining about not being able to afford health care. He spends $300 a month on his cable TV programming and he, his wife, and his daughter, have cell phones and do lots of texting. Priorities! I've heard that the Turks are the toughest people. I really don't know but I do know lots of tough Americans who I would like to have on my side in a fight. I also know lots of generous Americans who give generously to other people and good causes. I know lots of Americans who are principled and don't bow to the pressure to get along and go along. Americans, in general are nothing like your description of them. We are a strong, honorable, generous Nation, particularly when we have a leader who reflects our principles without opology.

hey Bill what kind of a bizarre question is that: what do i propose to MAKE Americans tougher? i can't even begin to answer that. i don't propose anything...we've just gotten spoiled w/the shit we have. like you said, poor people live in outhouses, but have a fucking dish on the roof. yup, priorities, for sure. i never insinuated tough people are necessarily good at prioritizing...although, where i come from we had nothing, no choice, and so nothing to prioritize. we just made do and made things last longer. we had no choice between healthcare and an iphone.

anyway, may I ask, Bill how old you are? because my generation (i'm 41) is a piece of whining, Facebook-addicted, self-important, narcissistical horseshit.

i'd like to move to where you live, to have those people as my neighbours. i'm tired of all the whiny fucks in their early 40s.

swine: I think things have always been upside down for some segment of out population. It's what helps make life interesting. We all make judgements of others and it's not hard to find people to criticize.

Back to Erin's original post: 1. The Midland School District guy, resigned. 2. The Senatorial candidate, Angle, lost. 3. Rand Paul won. So, 2 out of 3 of Erin's points worked out the way, I imagine, Erin would have wanted.

I have 2 kids around your age. I was a very young parent (19). They both have families and are pretty solid citizens. They don't whine much, work hard, are compassionate, and have a diverse group of friends. I know many of their friends and see them often. I don't see them obsessed with facebook, well, maybe the single ones, but they are mostly concernced about their own families just like most of their parents were.

Bill, I have no doubt your kids and their fams are what you say--for true.

I do think it's funny how just about ANYBODY bitching about ANYTHING in the good ol' USA never admits to being part of the problems. It's always somebody else's kids, some other group of people, another ethnicity, etc.

Every one of us is the goddamn problem and every one of us needs to belly up to that reality.

Erin: My point is that I'm a problem for some people and others are a problem for me. I don't think I'm able to change people's perception of me but I do have some control over how I, and my family, treat others and see the world. I don't relate you your indictment and don't feel guilty about anything. If I did, I would do something about it, not just opologize to everyone who may be offended by something I said or did. I admit that I do bitch about things that others do but "bitching" is a god given right man! You bitch. I bitch. I know a few bitches! Maybe they need a new dildo.