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Territorial Waters

Ireland would like to advance a motion to discuss an international agreement for territorial waters, territorial seas, contiguous zones, and areas of maritime responsibility. Ireland would like to propose a treaty defining an international standard in this area.

(I think most people claim a 12-mile zone at this time, but perhaps we should put it into writing?)

RE: Territorial Waters

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
Ireland would like to advance a motion to discuss an international agreement for territorial waters, territorial seas, contiguous zones, and areas of maritime responsibility. Ireland would like to propose a treaty defining an international standard in this area.

(I think most people claim a 12-mile zone at this time, but perhaps we should put it into writing?)

For ease of simplicity, I'd like to offer up a suggestion which is rather too long to post here. (Yes yes, it's early for a treaty for the 1940s, but I don't really see anything in there that couldn't be proposed in 1940 rather than 1980...)

Quoted

Chinese proposal for the definition of Territorial Seas :

The ships of all states (whether coastal or landlocked countries) have the right of innocent / free passage through the territorial sea.

Meaning of passage:
"Passage" means the passage through the territorial sea for the purpose:
a) traversing that sea without entering the internal waters or entering harbor or port facilities outside internal waters; or
b) to enter or leave the internal waters or to enter or leave such harbor or port facilities.

The passage must be continuous and expeditious. The passage concludes, however, a stopping and anchoring, but only insofar as this is part of the normal shipping,
or force majeur or an emergency situation, or to render assistance to persons, ships or aircraft in danger or distress.

Meaning of innocent / free passage:

1. Passage is innocent so long as it doesn't affected the peace, good order or the security of the coastal state. Such passage shall be in accordance with the
rules of international law.

2. The passage of a foreign ship shall be considered prejudicial to the peace, the order or security of the coastal State if it is in the territorial sea engaged in one of the following activities:
a) Threat or use of force against the sovereignty, the territorial integrity or political independence of the coastal State
b) an exercise or practice with weapons of any kind;
c) an act aimed at collecting information on the loss of the defense or the security of the coastal state;
d) any act of propaganda aimed at affecting the defense or the security of the coastal state;
e) the launching, landing or taking on board of aircrafts;
f) the launching, landing or taking on board of military equipment;
g) the loading or unloading of any commodity, currency or person contrary to the customs and other tax laws, immigration or sanitary laws and regulations of the coastal state;
h) a deliberate, serious pollution
i) Fishing activities;
j) Research or survey work;
k) an act which is interfering with any communication system or other facilities or installations of the coastal State;
l) other activities that are not directly connected with the passage.

Submarines and other underwater vehicles
Submarines and other underwater vehicles have to travel surfaced inside the territorial sea and have to show their flag.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "parador" (Nov 24th 2010, 9:49pm)

Don't have time to review it in detail, but that looks to me like a short form of the UN Treaty language. I'll look it over tomorrow or so and comment, but at first glance I saw nothing too objectionable...

Well, aside from the note that you're using the term "territorial sea" to refer to "territorial waters." There is a major difference between the two terms, though many of the restrictions should be the same...

It's also just a proposal, which can be certainly improved and developed.

Uuuupppssss yes, you are completely right. There is of course a big difference between both terms. I meant of course "territorial waters" with my term "territorial sea". But that happens when English isn't the native language

I edited this to reflect the use of Territorial Waters rather than Parador's original use of Territorial Seas, which refers to a separate concept in the Law of the Sea.

There are additionally a number of exceptions arranged by international agreement - Bruce pointed out the Copenhagen Convention to me as an example.

Quoted

Irish edit for the definition of Territorial Waters:

The ships of all states (whether coastal or landlocked countries) have the right of innocent / free passage through territorial waters.

Meaning of passage:
"Passage" means the passage through the territorial sea for the purpose:
a) traversing that sea without entering the internal waters or entering harbor or port facilities outside internal waters; or
b) to enter or leave the internal waters or to enter or leave such harbor or port facilities.

The passage must be continuous and expeditious. The passage concludes, however, a stopping and anchoring, but only insofar as this is part of the normal shipping,
or force majeur or an emergency situation, or to render assistance to persons, ships or aircraft in danger or distress.

Meaning of innocent / free passage:
1. Passage is innocent so long as it doesn't affected the peace, good order or the security of the coastal state. Such passage shall be in accordance with the
rules of international law.
2. The passage of a foreign ship shall be considered prejudicial to the peace, the order or security of the coastal State if it is in the territorial sea engaged in one of the following activities:
a) Threat or use of force against the sovereignty, the territorial integrity or political independence of the coastal State
b) an exercise or practice with weapons of any kind;
c) an act aimed at collecting information on the loss of the defense or the security of the coastal state;
d) any act of propaganda aimed at affecting the defense or the security of the coastal state;
e) the launching, landing or taking on board of aircrafts;
f) the launching, landing or taking on board of military equipment;
g) the loading or unloading of any commodity, currency or person contrary to the customs and other tax laws, immigration or sanitary laws and regulations of the coastal state;
h) deliberate, serious pollution
i) fishing activities;
j) research or survey work;
k) an act which is interfering with any communication system or other facilities or installations of the coastal State;
l) other activities that are not directly connected with the passage.

Submarines and other underwater vehicles have to travel surfaced inside territorial waters and have to show their flag.

Exceptions:
- The Great Belt in the Danish straits remains under the Copenhagen Convention of 1857.

The only problem I can see is Hong Kong.
Surrounded by Chinese waters its possible with the 12 mile limit that HK and Macau could be cut off from International Waters and then these rules imposed upon to seriously hamper RN transit.

If some kind of guaranteed channel to and from Hong Kong and Macau to international waters can be arranged then Britain may back the proposal. China may instead wish to gaurantee use that the right of innocent / free passage will be kept.
As we've done a deal with the Philippines it should put China's mind at rest. The recent plans and neogiations with China fell through and nearly resulted in a serious incident. Any deal must be done through the LoN under full international scruinty.

Quoted

Originally posted by Hood
The only problem I can see is Hong Kong.
Surrounded by Chinese waters its possible with the 12 mile limit that HK and Macau could be cut off from International Waters and then these rules imposed upon to seriously hamper RN transit.

Actually, that's a good point. How was it solved IRL?

I suppose that like the Copenhagen Convention, an exception should be written for such cases; perhaps stating that a corridor of some sort must remain through territorial waters if another nation's territory is otherwise enclosed.

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine

Quoted

Originally posted by Hood
The only problem I can see is Hong Kong.
Surrounded by Chinese waters its possible with the 12 mile limit that HK and Macau could be cut off from International Waters and then these rules imposed upon to seriously hamper RN transit.

Actually, that's a good point. How was it solved IRL?

I suppose that like the Copenhagen Convention, an exception should be written for such cases; perhaps stating that a corridor of some sort must remain through territorial waters if another nation's territory is otherwise enclosed.

I tend to agree. The British-Filipino agreements creates a corridor between the claims by both nations in the Sulu Sea to try to keep conflict at a minimum. A statement like the one you recommended is very reasonable IMO.

Quoted

Originally posted by Hood
The only problem I can see is Hong Kong.
Surrounded by Chinese waters its possible with the 12 mile limit that HK and Macau could be cut off from International Waters and then these rules imposed upon to seriously hamper RN transit.

If some kind of guaranteed channel to and from Hong Kong and Macau to international waters can be arranged then Britain may back the proposal. China may instead wish to gaurantee use that the right of innocent / free passage will be kept.
As we've done a deal with the Philippines it should put China's mind at rest. The recent plans and neogiations with China fell through and nearly resulted in a serious incident. Any deal must be done through the LoN under full international scruinty.

Or just have a 12 mile counter-claim around Hong Kong. That should have a nice, wide, and clear corridor.