bobf

Light does both brother, by its brightness it blinds those under the law and set free those who beleive. Thus those who are yet in unbelief will stay there (unto this day) until the Day star arises in thier hearts. But again that does not mean the door is locked to the Jews for Paul goes on to say that if they stay not in thier unbelief God is well able to graff them back in.

But until "the Day star arises in their hearts" they remain in unbelief and that is the lock I am referrring to. This has nothing to do with Jews or Gentiles (at least for me)

I think I have already displayed that I believe there is no FREE WILL of man (which is why it is NOT noted in Scripture), and that in fact the WILL of man is IN BONDAGE, until it is MADE FREE by the WORD(John 8:32,36)

If something (man) is MADE FREE by the WORD, ...IT, by necessity of definition it is NOT FREE beforehand...

This means the ENTIRE HISTORY of His CREATION which was YET to come forth in TIME from its BEGINNING to its END (and which had yet to be created), ...was ALREADY spoken [DECLARED] in ETERNITY...

((((( sidenote: The END, ...IS... the BEGINNING -- Rev 1:8 -- I AM[eternal designation] the ALPHA, ...AND... the OMEGA [He ...IS... both simultaneously -- at the same "time"] ))))

2. Before He embarked upon "Creating" the FOUNDATION of the WORLD... The LAMB was "slain"... Why? Because this element [SAVIOR] was to be NEEDED concerning the "Creation" to come...

What does this mean? It means that the Creation which was DECLARED (but not YET created) by YHVH... was to need the redeeming death of CHRIST, within its TIME-BOUND History, in order that ALL within that HISTORY might be RECONCILED from having "chosen amiss" during that HISTORY...

3. THEN, ...GOD created TIME and within it, ...made a MAN, then a WOMAN, and in their creation, gave them the ability to "CHOOSE" (which we observe as ...a "will")...

4. ALL The "CHOOSING" they would DO while within TIME which GOD had placed them, had already been noted by the PRIOR DECLARATION of the End from the Beginning (see #1)

5. They then "CHOSE" to DISOBEY the COMMAND of GOD (ate of the tree of the [single] Knowledege of Good AND Evil)... (this, as I said had already been "declared" by the WORDS of YHVHIs 46:10-11 / Rom 4:17 ...prior to its occurence in TIME)...

This "MIS-CHOOSING", necessitated the LAMB to eventually be manifest in TIME, which had ALREADY been noted as SLAIN (see #1), ...according to the DECLARATION of the History of TIME made PRIOR to its creation...

6. The LAMB which was already, from ETERNITY, DECLARED to DIE in the course of TIME, ...died IN TIME... to redeem those who also by the DECLARATION of GOD, ..."CHOSE" amiss... as THAT DECLARATON stated they would...

7. TIME "unfolding", does NOT establish ETERNAL DECLARATION... It is the other way around... ETERNITY establishes the UNFOLDING of TIME... The WILL of GOD which IS ...IN... His DECLARATION, ...IS... continually...

BEFORE TIME's manifestation, DURING TIME's manifestation, ...and AFTER TIME has seen it's completed manifestation...

Is the issue what is the ultimate cause of the removing of unbelief, free will or God?

I think for some those are one and the same issue. For some, if "God is the ultimate cause of the removing of unbelief" then to them it means we do not have free will. For that reason, I avoid using the term "free wll" and just say "will". We always have a will and we always make choices. When God dispells unbelief in a person's heart he or she still has a will and is still making choices.

Quote

I believe Jesus answered this question.

Luke 11:21,22 21When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are safe. 22But when someone stronger attacks and overpowers him, he takes away the armor in which the man trusted and divides up the spoils.

How I see this is. The strong man trusted in the wrong armor, his free will, to protect his own house, and his possessions. God comes along, who is stronger, overpowers the strong man taking away the armor, his free will, in which the man trusted and divides up the spoils.

Amen.

Quote

We have a choice: Trust in our free will believing it to be stronger than it is, not that we don't have it as some want to believe, and in the end lose everything.

Or Trust in the Lord believing Him to be the Rock, a rock that never fails, and we are over comers in Him.

I agree again, but would have said "will" instead of "free will" just because I think it is less confusion.

Light does both brother, by its brightness it blinds those under the law and set free those who beleive. Thus those who are yet in unbelief will stay there (unto this day) until the Day star arises in thier hearts. But again that does not mean the door is locked to the Jews for Paul goes on to say that if they stay not in thier unbelief God is well able to graff them back in.

But until "the Day star arises in their hearts" they remain in unbelief and that is the lock I am referrring to. This has nothing to do with Jews or Gentiles (at least for me)

Bob..Im now at loss.mm..BUT im slow Christ is the DAY Star which Rises in all men unto belief, HE IS the Resurrection Unto LIFE.....the Lock are for those still bound by their unbelief ,.

JUST WHY isnt this to do with BOTH Gentile and Jew....?

He came to SAVE that was LOST, and that which was LOST was HIM...For mine Hes Hidden in the regions of ALL men, till TIME reveals that which was hidden behind the veil

« Last Edit: December 06, 2008, 10:27:32 PM by Taffy »

Logged

Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

YoungYuni

Willieh, I see what you are saying; however; claims you make are only your perceptions, not the actual reasons behind it. Whether or not God is more powerful than mankind, does not negate the fact all mankind has free will.

All I see is your attempt to confuse my position and others who think the same to some how have a position that we don't agree God's will is more powerful than our free will. I do not believe we are more powerful than God in anything, creation will never be more powerful than God who created it.

You should be in politics.

All I can think is you think free will means ultimate freedom and therefore do not believe it exists because we obviously don't have that. That is, in my opinion, a very narrow definition of free will which actually only exists in your vocabulary.

You should be a lawyer.

It is your choice to be in this thread making replies, a case of your free will. A moderator or administrator can delete lock this thread, delete your replies, and even your membership, a case of your free will being violated by a more powerful will.

I don't particularly want your words or positioning associated with what I believe in agreement or disagreement, so please do not reply to me again. Thank you.

bobf

The reason I used your post Bobf, is because I agree with what you are saying, not disagreeing.

I like what you stated here:....That is a better explanation.

We all still have a choice, to believe or not to believe. In the end, if we choose not to believe a stronger will will overpower us.

Amen.

Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

^^^ Those mountains are in the hearts of women and men. One set of mountains will be abased and the Lord's mountain will be exalted.

Isaiah 2:11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. 12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low: 13 And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan, 14 And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up, 15 And upon every high tower, and upon every fenced wall, 16 And upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures. 17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. 18 And the idols he shall utterly abolish.

The humbling of those mountains in our hearts leads to the exalting of the Lord's mountain and to salvation.

Luke 3:5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways [shall be] made smooth; 6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

I believe Jesus is saying something similar here, but as often is the case, Jesus states it in reverse order.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

[1] Jesus blinds (brings down) those who see (are lifted up in their mind and say "I see" or "I am righteoous" or "Look at me, what a glorius kingdom I have built for myself")[2] Jesus gives sight to the blind that He brought down.

Jesus locks people up in their own unbelief [1] so that He might have mercy on all [2].

God says He locks up all together in stubbornness (Romans 11:32).The majority of you say basically Paul is mistaken. God hasn't locked anyone up. God has opened the door!

Tony we are NOT saying Paul is mistaken, we are saying God locked them up in their own unbelief, here we agree with you, but we add that Jesus came to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, Lu.4:18-19

Remember Tony God did not lock them up in Romans Paul was explaining how and why they were locked up in the Old Testament under the LAW. Thus Jesus came to give sight to the BLIND and DELIEVER the CAPTIVES.

So as they were locked up in the Old Testament as scripture shows us and you believe the door is stilled locked to them today please explain then how some Jews are set at liberty?

For we read

Acts 14:1And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed.

Dear pneuma, that is not true. Of course God began to lock them up in stubbornness in Isaiah's day which both Christ and Paul attest to in their day in which the blinding continued.that was before Israel was cast away:Rom 11:15 For if their casting away is the conciliation of the world, what will the taking back be if not life from among the dead?

Paul showed a present reality of locking up here:Rom 11:30-31 For even as you once were stubborn toward God, yet now were shown mercy at their stubbornness, (31) thus these also are now stubborn to this mercy of yours, that now they also may be shown mercy."Paul was not writing about what was happening in the Old testament but NOW, in their day.

Quote

pneuma quoted: Romans 1:1616 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Thus we see that the Jew that believes is set free in Christ, thus the door is open by Christ, for Paul goes on to say

Dear pneuma, The remnant that God did not harden believed. But they did not believe because they excercised some sort of free will but due to God opening up their eyes, ears and heart. Paul makes a case in point that:Rom 11:4-5 But what is that which apprises saying to him? I left for Myself seven thousand men who do not bow the knee to the image of Baal. (5) Thus, then, in the current era also, there has come to be a remnant according to the choice of grace." So the rest God hardened according as it is written:

Rom 11:8 even as it is written, God gives them a spirit of stupor, eyes not to be observing, and ears not to be hearing, till this very day."

So we see, dear brother, that God locked up the rest in stubbornness and the remnant He was merciful to.

Quote

pneuma continueth: Romans 10:11-1511 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him(referring to both Jew and Greek as seen in verse 12) shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever (both of the Jew and the Greek) shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Tony's reply:But why do they believe on Him if they do? It is because they are the remnant God saved for Himself and whom God gave faith to be believing. They didn't just believe without God giving them faith as if they, out of some sort of free will believed without God first giving them faith.

Quote

pneuma continues:Paul then goes on to tell us how those who are locked up in their own unbelief come to call on the name of the Lord.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Dear pneuma, you are mixing up the scriptures and taking them out of context. Those who are locked up in stubbornness cannot possibly believe for they are not the remnant according to the choice of grace. They must await the Redeemer out of Zion and THUS ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED. All Israel has never been saved. Right now the nations are in God's grace. Israel is hardened UNTIL the complement of the nations enter (Romans 11:25).

Quote

pneuma wrote: And this all a prelude to Ro.11 were it is shown that the natural branch is gaffed back in V.23

And I s'pose you believe that is a free will response if they remain grafted in. It has to do with God's kindness, not free will. The natural brance will be grafted back in later in verse 11:25 once the complement of the nations enters. Until then they remain OUT.

Quote

Tony wrote: So, please, take your scissors and cut out Romans 11:32 because it does not agree with your theology. What God shuts no man can open. Man is not free to become unlocked from God's prison. Man must wait for the Redeemer.

[/quote]pneuma replied: Brother the REDEEMER has come.

Tony if the redeemer has not yet come for the Jews as you say then the Jews were correct in their belief that Jesus Christ was NOT their Messiah and they are correct to wait for Him( their Messiah) to come. Brother that is exactly what you are tell any Jew that might read this thread, that thier Messiah has not yet come but will come for them in the future. Please pray and think about that, and I hope I have not caused you any offence by my words.[/quote]

Tony's reply:Oh dear me. pneuma, pneuma, pneuma, I don't know where to begin. Of course the Redeemer came before Paul believed. Paul was writing after the Redeemer died and went up into heaven in Romans. In Romans the nations are now in God's favor and Israel set aside. Paul now writes years after Christ came and went that when the Redeemer comes out of Zion that ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED (that's future tense brother.) In the future, after Paul wrote that, the Redeemer will come and all Israel shall be saved.

Quote

So why is it so hard for people to believe God will save all? Because they can't until God gives it to them to believe.

Quote

pneuma replied: No one is arguing that Tony, but God has given and is giving them to believe by the preaching of the Gospel, both by His Son and by His sons. They are free just as we are if they but believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah. That why verse 23 states

And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Tony's reply: But they will continue to abide in unbelief UNTIL the complement of the nations enter which has not happened yet. There are still people being added to the body of Christ from the nations. Once that body is complete then Israel will be grafted back in to the olive tree.

Logged

Just because God says He will save all mankinddoes not necessarily mean He won't.

bobf

Bob..Im now at loss.mm..BUT im slow Christ is the DAY Star which Rises in all men unto belief, HE IS the Resurrection Unto LIFE.....the Lock are for those still bound by their unbelief.

I would say that the lock is their unbelief itself. God locked them up IN UNBELIEF.

Quote

JUST WHY isnt this to do with BOTH Gentile and Jew....?

Sorry. I did not word that clearly. What I meant was that it is the same for BOTH Jew and Gentile. When I said "has nothing to do with Jew or Gentile" I meant that being a Jew or a Gentile makes no difference.

1] Jesus blinds (brings down) those who see (are lifted up in their mind and say "I see" or "I am righteoous" or "Look at me, what a glorius kingdom I have built for myself")[2] Jesus gives sight to the blind that He brought down.

Nice post Bro...

am I reading correct betwen the Lines?

The Mountains are the High Places( Mind\heart) of Carnal man which will be MADE low,and HE WILL ESTABLISH his HIGH place within US...Anew mind and Heart.

The righteous In this case are again those of LAW, Noted By Paul as Filthy RAGS, or What I understand TO be SELF-righteousness.

Logged

Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Is the issue what is the ultimate cause of the removing of unbelief, free will or God?

I think for some those are one and the same issue. For some, if "God is the ultimate cause of the removing of unbelief" then to them it means we do not have free will. For that reason, I avoid using the term "free wll" and just say "will". We always have a will and we always make choices. When God dispells unbelief in a person's heart he or she still has a will and is still making choices.

Hiya!

Bobf, I disagree concerning your usage of thinking a will means the same thing as free will.

God does not have a choice in His Will. Everything God does, He will not turn from it. God does not have free will. He has an all powerful will.

The devil does not have a choice in his will. Everything the devil does, he will not turn from it. The devil does not have a free will. He has a deceptive will.

We have have a choice in our will. Everything we do, we can repent from it and change our mind. We have an free will.

A will does not mean there is choice, a will means a course of action and intent. Choice is what turns a will into free will.

All mankind has a choice, if there is choice then there is will with the freedom to choose, a will that is free to choose is called a free will.

So I do not see any confusion, there is a difference between a will and a free will. That is why it wise not to confuse the two terms.

Bob..Im now at loss.mm..BUT im slow Christ is the DAY Star which Rises in all men unto belief, HE IS the Resurrection Unto LIFE.....the Lock are for those still bound by their unbelief.

I would say that the lock is their unbelief itself. God locked them up IN UNBELIEF.

Quote

JUST WHY isnt this to do with BOTH Gentile and Jew....?

Sorry. I did not word that clearly. What I meant was that it is the same for BOTH Jew and Gentile. When I said "has nothing to do with Jew or Gentile" I meant that being a Jew or a Gentile makes no difference.

Blinded BY what is KNOWN to the be the FORM, those who lead the Blind Into a Ditch Rom 2.19

Thanks for clarify the second part

Logged

Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

bobf

Bobf, I disagree concerning your usage of thinking a will means the same thing as free will.

God does not have a choice in His Will. Everything God does, He will not turn from it. God does not have free will. He has an all powerful will.

The devil does not have a choice in his will. Everything the devil does, he will not turn from it. The devil does not have a free will. He has a deceptive will.

We have have a choice in our will. Everything we do, we can repent from it and change our mind. We have an free will.

A will does not mean there is choice, a will means a course of action and intent. Choice is what turns a will into free will.

All mankind has a choice, if there is choice then there is will with the freedom to choose, a will that is free to choose is called a free will.

So I do not see any confusion, there is a difference between a will and a free will. That is why it wise not to confuse the two terms.

Well, I have to say that you are the first person who has EVER given me an explanation of why they use the term "free" in front of "will" and I have asked many times -- I appreciate that.

But I still disagree. ;)

God has a will. God is righteous. That is the nature of His will. But God still makes choices. A choice is a selection among two or more alternatives according to one's will. God does that! God does not change His mind because God's mind is righteous and therefore has no need of ever changing.

Here is God making choices:

Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Acts 1:2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

I'm sure there are many more examples of God choosing (like Romans 9) but I'm in a hurry and have to go!

God bless, till later.

Logged

YoungYuni

If we happen to find someone end up in a pit, we have a choice to walk past them or help them out; if the devil happens to find someone end up in a pit, most likely he is responsible for why they are in there and walk past them; if God happens to find someone end up in a pit, He has no choice but to help them out.

When the disciples or apostles explain God having a choice, they actually make it clear that they are speaking in human terms because most of us are slow to understand. So yes there is the word, choice, used to describe an action of God's will but that choice had no freedom to detour from it. God's choice does not change the direction of his will, therefore no free will. If God had a choice to change His mind, then there is no hope for either you or myself in any Gospel that comes from such a God.

Our choice changes the direction of our will, therefore it is free will. A freedom of choice, therefore a freedom of will. We either are carried along to and fro like infants in the the snare of the devil's will for us, or we can come back to our senses and submit to God's Will for us.

Whereas our choice changes the intent and the course direction of our life, God's choice never changes the intent and course direction of His life.

There is more than plenty of Scripture which demonstrates this point. A person cannot just pick and choose what they want to believe and hope it is correct.

Hebrews 13:88 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

Numbers 23:1919 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

1 Samuel 15:2929 He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a man, that he should change his mind.

Mankind has the freedom to change their mind, the freedom to change their choice, the freedom to change their course of will, the will of mankind is what we know and call a free will.

the Bible tells us to choose good , we do not always obey and choose the good God is good , and pure and holy , Jesus came to make a way where we could meet in the new testiomony I see a will as being the same thing

these are opposing the will of God right here with their own will / desire !!!!!

Jhn 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father you DO will . He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell [you] the truth, you believe me not.Strong's G2309 - thelō θέλωTransliterationthelō Pronunciation

Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

This must have really driven the Pharisees wild. Well, we know it did.

64"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

65Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, "He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. 66What do you think?" "He is worthy of death," they answered.

Willieh, I see what you are saying; however; claims you make are only your perceptions, not the actual reasons behind it. Whether or not God is more powerful than mankind, does not negate the fact all mankind has free will.

FACT?

Show me ONE VERSE which SPECIFICALLY notes that MAN has a FREE WILL, YY...

Quote

All I see is your attempt to confuse my position and others who think the same to some how have a position that we don't agree God's will is more powerful than our free will. I do not believe we are more powerful than God in anything, creation will never be more powerful than God who created it.

If what you believe is the truth, then stand in it... I never try to convince anyone of anything... Until GOD reveals, you are where you are according to HIM...

If you feel CONFUSED, perhaps your position is not so "written in stone", as you might presently percieve...

I never stated this [in red above] YY... What I have stated is that GOD's WILL is in ALL THINGS...

ALL that takes place in human HISTORY had been DECLARED, before one second of it took place... (Is 46:10-11)

Quote

You should be in politics.

No thanks...

Quote

All I can think is you think free will means ultimate freedom and therefore do not believe it exists because we obviously don't have that. That is, in my opinion, a very narrow definition of free will which actually only exists in your vocabulary.

FREE WILL is the ability to decide something OUTSIDE of INFLUENCE... No man is IN this scenario, and no man makes decisions UNINFLUENCED...

Only GOD who has NO COUNSELOR other than Himself... can claim a WILL which is FREE of INFLUENCE... And it is in HIS WILL that FREEDOM is found...

Quote

You should be a lawyer.

Again, no thanks... ...I'm just a lowly and uneducated musician...

Quote

It is your choice to be in this thread making replies, a case of your free will.

No... I am only doing as GOD, before TIME and ALL within it was created, noted that I would... I choose, but only according to His prior DECLARATION of those choices...

Quote

A moderator or administrator can delete lock this thread, delete your replies, and even your membership, a case of your free will being violated by a more powerful will

FYI... I used to be a Mod here (been here over 4yrs)... and can tell you that NO ONE has the power you suppose, for the ADMINISTRATOR which appointed me, then removed me, is presently BANNED from this forum...

I have no "free will" that can be violated... I am living my life as was ordained by GOD before the world was...

Quote

I don't particularly want your words or positioning associated with what I believe in agreement or disagreement, so please do not reply to me again. Thank you.

Wow! You do not even know me, yet request that I do not communicate with you by reply? Hmmm... what are you so up in a wrinkle about?

This is a discussion forum... if you note a Biblical or NON-Biblical position (such as "free will") which I find is OPPOSITE to that which Scripture notes... then I retain the right to OPPOSE Your words... Don't mean nothin personal...

When I reply to any post, the reply is not just for the one to whom I am responding... it is for ALL that might read, to consider... If you do not agree with my response, ...I have no problemo -- widdat...

You are welcome to believe whatever you like YY...

If you like, I will abstain from addressing you (as above)... but retain the right to oppose the WORDS you have noted in any given post...

No offenses are ever intended toward you as a person, in my replies (don't even know you, why should I?)

Bobf, I disagree concerning your usage of thinking a will means the same thing as free will.

God does not have a choice in His Will. Everything God does, He will not turn from it. God does not have free will. He has an all powerful will.

This is your observation, but is contrary to what the WORD states...

GOD has no COUNSELOR... His only COUNSELOR is HIMSELF (Eph 1:11)... That which HE decides is best, is what is DONE...

He does not TIE His own hands... HE decides what HE decides in His Creation without any ADVICE, INFORMATION or INFLUENCE from another...

Which means that HIS WILL is FREE of ALL things EXTERNAL of HIMSELF...

If HE so chose... He could do other than HE does choose... WHO could do anything about it? Or who could challenge those decisions?

Fortunately for ALL of us, GOD is LOVE... and chooses according to the WORKINGS and DEFINITIONS of LOVE...

Quote

The devil does not have a choice in his will. Everything the devil does, he will not turn from it. The devil does not have a free will. He has a deceptive will.

There is no "devil" and that which is percieved as the "devil" has no "will"... the "devil" is ADVERSITY within the FLESHLY promptings of men...

Deception emerges from SELF...

As the Apostle John notes: (1 John 1:8)... and the Apostle James agrees: (James 1:14)

We do not need an external "devil" which decieves us... ADVERSITY to the command of GOD, is within us ...in the FLESH we reside in...

Quote

We have have a choice in our will. Everything we do, we can repent from it and change our mind. We have an free will.

No man CAN come to the WORD of GOD of his own "will" (John 6:44),

The WORD of GOD is that which MAKES MEN FREE (John 8:32,36)

Quote

A will does not mean there is choice, a will means a course of action and intent. Choice is what turns a will into free will.

Choice is interaction with OPTIONS which have been presented by EXTERNAL sources... the ability to exercise this "power" is given by the one creating the existence of those "choices"...

Quote

All mankind has a choice, if there is choice then there is will with the freedom to choose, a will that is free to choose is called a free will.

This is your presumption... YOU entitle a "will" which makes choices as "FREE"... and that remains a principle unnamed and unstated in the Scriptures...

That which IS stated in the Scriptures is that the WORD of GOD makes one FREE... for until the WORD of GOD ...MAKES... one FREE, then one is yet in BONDAGE or IMPRISONMENT apart from that FREEDOM...

Quote

So I do not see any confusion, there is a difference between a will and a free will. That is why it wise not to confuse the two terms.

The term "FREE WILL" is not Biblically based term... so it cannot be supported in or by the WORD of GOD...

There are many such UNBIBLICAL teachings which are taught in Christianity, that are based upon terminology that does not make an appearance in Scripture, rather...Are conclusions drawn from assumptions about the Scriptures, rather than the WORD establishing that conclusion as a teaching...

I've read some of this thread trying to catch up since I got preoccupied with Thanksgiving. We had out of town guests. At this point I must start at page 16 and read through to the end of 21 if I'm not to miss anything. It's such a chore! I just lack interest. Nothing so wrong about theory necessarily . . . I tried earlier to get it into the practical, to get specially whoever seems so self-convinced about either side of the freewill/Sovereignty debate to apply it to our real life situations and how their distinctive point of view helps us to come into the salvation of God. Forgive me if I don't get very involved while you who are interested continue describing what seems contradictory to each other. It is God that works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure for we are His workmanship.

I have been trying to consider how it may be understood from the lights on either side of freewill vs. Sovereignty that, after He resurrected, Jesus appeared only to those specifically chosen by Him. It was mentioned by Paul that there were over 500 men, the majority of whom were still alive when he was writing that could verify what he wrote. Since the Torah was against numbering the people it was customary to only count the men. That means there were 2 to 3 times as many who were witnesses to His ascension, 1,000 to 1,500 persons on that occasion who would be described as the chosen. This has been offered by various writers as the small number of those who were actual disciples of Jesus as distinguished from the large crowds He attracted in the days of His ministry prior to His death and resurrection.

My trying to catch up is primarily because I wanted to see if there were mentions of the fact that God's purpose for us is not a better place in death but victory over death. The phrase "go to heaven" never occurs in the Bible in relation to anything. According to Jesus, heaven and earth will pass away, though His word will remain. God's purpose is to bring forth the image and similitude of God in humanity. Where we are headed is into The Perfect Man, into the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. In the light from The Unveiling of this Image all things will be revealed. This Perfect Man is the inheritor of all things.

God existed without any environment and His sanctifying work is creating a man whose nature is not determined by where he is but arises from within, from that union in Divine espousals.

« Last Edit: December 07, 2008, 08:07:14 AM by reFORMer »

Logged

I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program! JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!! MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

There is more than plenty of Scripture which demonstrates this point. A person cannot just pick and choose what they want to believe and hope it is correct.

Hebrews 13:88 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

Numbers 23:1919 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

1 Samuel 15:2929 He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a man, that he should change his mind.

Mankind has the freedom to change their mind, the freedom to change their choice, the freedom to change their course of will, the will of mankind is what we know and call a free will.

Does the "term" free-will adequatly demonstrate what ultimatly happens within Gods will for us?

Explain the nature of our free will and our free choices if we cannot choose to reject God for all eternity.

Hello Paul!

We can choose to reject God for all eternity, but like sin was inevitable choice when we were created without the knowledge of good and evil; when we all have the knowledge of the truth in Christ it is inevitable that we will choose God.

We love Him because He first loved us. We chose Him because He first chose us. He reconciled us to Him through Christ, now we must reconciled ourselves to Him.

The term free will adequately demonstrates what ultimately God had planned for us within the course of His Will for all creation.

YoungYuni

I don't particularly want your words or positioning associated with what I believe in agreement or disagreement, so please do not reply to me again. Thank you.

Do not address me again, I do not particularly find your communication style appealing, sensible, civil or helpful. The way you phrase your responses leads to confusion of my statements. I will be reporting you to a moderator if you continue.

I think the issue here is not so much disagreement on the facts, but that we are using a different definition of "choosing". The definition I gave for "choosing" in an earlier post was "to select from two or more alternatives according to one's will". And in case there is any question of what I mean by "to select" I mean "to single out one alternative as the preferred alternative".

Here is a picture of "choosing" under this definition:two or more alternatives presented -----> will -----> one alternative selected

Under this definition, "choosing" has nothing to do with how consistent or decisive one's will is. If I love vanilla ice cream and hate chocolate ice cream such that I will always prefer vanilla, that does not prevent me from choosing between the two. I do not need to be wavering to be making a choice.

I agree that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. I agree that God does not lie or change His intention. But those do not prevent God from "choosing" under the above definition. Man's wavering between godliness and ungodliness I would call "double-mindedness" and is not a desirable aspect of man's will.

Under the above definition of "choosing", Is man's will and choosing free from external causes, especially from God?

Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

am I reading correct betwen the Lines? The Mountains are the High Places( Mind\heart) of Carnal man which will be MADE low,and HE WILL ESTABLISH his HIGH place within US...Anew mind and Heart.

That's exactly how I'm seeing it. Well put!

Quote

The righteous In this case are again those of LAW, Noted By Paul as Filthy RAGS, or What I understand TO be SELF-righteousness.

Yes, by "I am righteous" I meant those who are self-righteous. The pharisees are the prime example, relying on their superior law-keeping. But this sin can be commited apart from anything regarding law-keeping. If I believe that I am "better" or "more acceptable" to God due to anything about myself (like my will) then IMO I am guilty of the same kind of self-righteousness. Are we better than they? NO! We are what we are by the grace of God!

Also, I don't think those high places are limited to self-righteousness. For example, in Daniel 4, Nebuchadnezzar's high places were thinking himself to be self-majestic - He worshipped the work of his hands, thinking HE had built HIMSELF a kigndom. Meanwhile, the prodigal son's high places were his serving the lusts of his flesh.

So I think in the most general case those high places are any idolatry we choose to serve in place of doing God's will.

Here are examples where the high places are symbolized by the sun, moon, and stars:

Deuteronomy 4:19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.

Deuteronomy 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;

2 Kings 23:5 And he put down the idolatrous priests, whom the kings of Judah had ordained to burn incense in the high places in the cities of Judah, and in the places round about Jerusalem; them also that burned incense unto Baal, to the sun, and to the moon, and to the planets, and to all the host of heaven.

Jeremiah 8:2 And they shall spread them before the sun, and the moon, and all the host of heaven, whom they have loved, and whom they have served, and after whom they have walked, and whom they have sought, and whom they have worshipped: they shall not be gathered, nor be buried; they shall be for dung upon the face of the earth.

In judgment and in reaping, God causes those created lights to darken. God brings down the high places.

Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. 10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. 11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

Isaiah 24:23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

Ezekiel 32:7 And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. 8 All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD.

Joel 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: 11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

This darkening of the sun/moon/stars was completed within those upon whom God poured out His Spirit on the day of pentecost. Their mountains had been abased and God's mountain had been exalted within them.

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.