I really didnt think id say this, but the 2minutes are really really nice.However i think we were cheated out of the range, as all the other tank CDs with setbonuses are allready 100yards, slightly to good imo.Atleast i get to progress on bosses now, since there would be no reason to use a paladin tank over a warrior/druid tank with 4set.Without the LFR gear, none of them has completed their 4set (as we didnt get them the normalmode gear as they allready had the LFR pieces)

I mean that the others automaticly get a 100yard range, while we have to live with a 30yard range on our aoe CD, sure with the 4set ours are 100yards aswell, but they actually gain a buff, we get a slightly reduced CD on ours that is in many cases worse anyway, especially with its duration.Not saying the 4set isnt worth it, just saying that compared to the other tank classes, ours is incredibly weak 4set.There seems to be real reason to choose a paladin over a warrior/druid given all have 4sets.Yes you get an extra bop, and you the CDs for the different classes are different, but not only in our favor.

I wouldn't call it weak, the 30yd range on Divine Guardian is really limited in situations where the raid isn't stacked and we also get 1min off the cooldown.Also I'd say it's a pretty big deal that our raidwall isn't tied to our personal shieldwall.

As for off-piece, shoulders imo, either H:Morchok or the 403 dps ones.

Our guild got 2 conqueror tokens so far (random is random but 90% of token drops as dk-rogue-mage-druid is so messed up) and i got both...One was for shoulders and i admit i got it by mistake (i messed up and swapped shoulder stats with helm ones in my mind,so i needed it...)

Now i need to find the less-awfull setup to work with (can't drop the shoulders for offset ones...My guild would kill me ) and i can't decide

All the character profile site keep going down,so i could as well not place anything here

Our guild got 2 conqueror tokens so far (random is random but 90% of token drops as dk-rogue-mage-druid is so messed up) and i got both...One was for shoulders and i admit i got it by mistake (i messed up and swapped shoulder stats with helm ones in my mind,so i needed it...)

Now i need to find the less-awfull setup to work with (can't drop the shoulders for offset ones...My guild would kill me ) and i can't decide

If you reforge the Parry to Mastery, then the CTC is still pretty good and you pick up a bunch of Expertise toward your DPS stats.

I figure in our 10man team, I usually don't die until DPS starts falling behind on adds or boss enrages or I just screw up massively. In this gear I still get almost complete CTC coverage with better DPS stats (Hit and Expertise). As we recover from the holiday boss and start pushing into heroics I plan on playing around with "DPS" stats to try and push my total damage output

Basically, you with offset legs rather than shoulders get mastery/stamina rather than avoidance. If we assumed 150 stamina = 100 mastery (the gem tradeoff), then its 285 mastery vs 341 avoidance, which is a trade you would make if following the cap CTC/stack stamina gearing strategy. The 174 expertise beats the 37 strength for threat too.

The t13 shoulders offer a socket more than the morchok shoulders.And since stamina is what really matters (atleast in the later fights) the tier shoulders outrank morchok shoulders (given you can access them both at the same ilvl)Spine shoulders are otherwise a good choice aswell (+100mastery +150critt +35sta vs 100parry + 200exp), they are even higher ilvl, problem is getting your hands on them, and i wouldnt go as far as prioritizing them over a dps as the upgrade from t13 shoulders arnt really that big.Not to mention once you are at the point of the shoulders beeing available to you, you have access to enough gear to block cap you without much effort.

At a 397 ilvl situation, tier shoulders + crafted legs win easily, problem is that morchok is so easy that you likely have access to the shoulders at that stage.But 397 tier shoulders will net you more stamina than 410 morchok shoulders cuz of that extra socket.

The t13 shoulders offer a socket more than the morchok shoulders.And since stamina is what really matters (atleast in the later fights) the tier shoulders outrank morchok shoulders (given you can access them both at the same ilvl)Spine shoulders are otherwise a good choice aswell (+100mastery +150critt +35sta vs 100parry + 200exp), they are even higher ilvl, problem is getting your hands on them, and i wouldnt go as far as prioritizing them over a dps as the upgrade from t13 shoulders arnt really that big.Not to mention once you are at the point of the shoulders beeing available to you, you have access to enough gear to block cap you without much effort.

At a 397 ilvl situation, tier shoulders + crafted legs win easily, problem is that morchok is so easy that you likely have access to the shoulders at that stage.But 397 tier shoulders will net you more stamina than 410 morchok shoulders cuz of that extra socket.

Treck wrote:But 397 tier shoulders will net you more stamina than 410 morchok shoulders cuz of that extra socket.

That's true, but there's also no heroic alternative for several of the other slots. I worked out the math back when Meloree and I were having this argument, and the most efficient configuration came from using T13H tier Head/Chest/Gloves/Shoulder and heroic Morchok shoulders.

<edit> Dug through my e-mail to find the discussion:

Meloree wrote:If you're wearing 4pc, shoulders are part of it (2 sockets) over gloves.

Theck wrote:Disagree. At 397 ilvl, perhaps. But there's no 410-ilvl glove option, and the valor at 397 is parry/exp.

410 Tier gloves are under-itemized on STR; they have 71 less STR than the 397-ilvl valor option. Net change by using the tier gloves:-71 STR, +69 STA, +93 Armor, +121 avoidance rating, -171 exp and +176 hit. I've assumed you stuff a Solid in both, so the tier is missing a socket bonus as well.

Heroic Brackenshell is over-itemized on STR slightly, but has dual avoidance stats. Net change from 410 tier:+39 STR, -75 STA, +214 avoidance rating, -226 expertise. Note that this is with epic solids in all sock

Combine those and you have the following net gain by using off-set shoulders and tier gloves:-32 STR, -6 STA, +93 Armor, +335 avoidance rating, +176 hit, -397 exp.

In other words, by choosing to use heroic tier shoulders and valor gloves to gain the extra gem socket, you're only gaining 6 stamina at the cost of 335 avoidance rating. I suppose you could use both heroic tier pieces, but then you're still only gaining 75 stamina at a cost of 214 avoidance rating, well below the gem exchange rate. And I don't think there are more attractive off-set pieces in the helm/leg/chest slots.

Meloree wrote:Damn wowhead for continuing to include the stuff that's in game files and doesn't actually exist. Damn them.

You lose 6 stamina by using the Morchok shoulders, but you gain more mastery (because both the Morchok shoulders and Tier gloves have higher single-stat values than the alternatives, thus more mastery via reforging), which means you can gem for more stamina to compensate.

Why would you ever use the 397 gloves over the tier gloves?So i dont see why they are even relevant to the discussion.Tier gloves are BiS no other option, Legs are BiS aswell, Head is BiS, and Chest is BiS, cant really argue on those 4 except legs might be discussable, but its about 100 sta differance.So the real topic is, do you use 4set with shoulders offset, or simply use 5x t13.And like you pointed out, its 75sta and some exp vs 40str and 200 avoidance rating, Im not sure what that ends up beeing post reforges.So id say if you are close but not really yet at block cap and need a little bit more, the Morchok shoulders are your best option, id still take the stamina over the avoidance and go with t13 shoulders for progress, but its pretty close.

Treck wrote:Why would you ever use the 397 gloves over the tier gloves?So i dont see why they are even relevant to the discussion.

If you were planning out your 4 pieces (for example, guilds who use DKP and have to bid/choose wisely), you'd want to know which 4 to get first based on your BiS setup. That affects which off-set pieces you pick up with valor, for example. That's how the discussion between Mel and I started, though only because he was assuming the 410 gloves in the game files were still an option.

Treck wrote:So the real topic is, do you use 4set with shoulders offset, or simply use 5x t13.

Fair enough, I thought you were suggesting using 4xT13 with shoulders and picking up a different off-set piece (gloves or legs). If the other four slots are already assumed, then it's a different question entirely, and one that potentially might warrant using 5xT13.

Treck wrote:So the real topic is, do you use 4set with shoulders offset, or simply use 5x t13.And like you pointed out, its 75sta and some exp vs 40str and 200 avoidance rating, Im not sure what that ends up beeing post reforges.So id say if you are close but not really yet at block cap and need a little bit more, the Morchok shoulders are your best option, id still take the stamina over the avoidance and go with t13 shoulders for progress, but its pretty close.

Just checking, and in my current gear set, I can get more net stamina by upgrading to heroic Brackenshell than with heroic T13.

The primary reason Brackenshell gives a higher benefit is because the excess dodge/parry still gives some CTC, while the expertise on the Tier shoulders does not. This means I can shift more purple/green gems over to blues (forgoing bad socket bonuses) while still maintaining cap.

This is one of the reasons it's dangerous to consider a single piece of gear per se (by itself). The extra socket on the tier shoulders seems like it should give you a clear stamina benefit. But that's only going to be true for certain gear sets. In fact, I'm certain we can find a gear set where the tier shoulders do "win" in the Stamina department, but that set requires more items with large mastery bonuses than I have.

You have the 4-set bonus already, so I don't see any reason for you to swap to the tier legs if they're a stat loss. Also, you should probably post this question in the gear check/advice thread! Keep the legs around until you get the Heroic Morchok shoulders.