...With that said, Rand has done some good things in the areas of fighting the Bush/Obama incursions into privacy,...

Rand's daddy didn't seem to mind the invasion of privacy thing when his top campaign consultant and financier built, funded and handed over the tools for the NSA's program to spy on US citizens in the first place...

Yeah Caputh, I thought you might like that one, and maybe even find it was interesting who it was written by.

Hi All...

In the 500 words of criticism of Rand Paul I posted from an article on the last page, sb above posted the ten words I put in recognizing a couple of good things Rand has done, (which is true, he did do them and so should be noted).

I want it to be clear that sb's quote of me above is not representative of my position on Rand Paul, I cannot support Rand and will continue to speak against him as well.

While on the topic of litmus tests, privacy and killing babies with bombs...

Do you find it a lesser evil that Ron Paul's single biggest campaign donor and political consultant, Peter Theil, who created, funded and implemented the tools that the NSA uses that with the result in the bombings that kill babies? You look the other way when it's your guy who is behind the baby killings?

Palantir's lord of data mining thinks privacy is sacred, even if his clients don't

In the public eye, security and data-mining company Palantir is a branch of the surveillance state, giving the FBI and CIA an inside line on our private lives. To CEO and co-founder Alex Karp, though, it's a tool that keeps users accountable while still helping catch terrorists and pedophiles — and a passion that now consumes most of his life. Brought on board by investor and longtime libertarian Peter Thiel, he struggles to defend Palantir but express his own privacy concerns...

His growing wealth has also made it impossible to be anonymous, especially as the company regularly figures in conspiracy theories and has proposed projects that clearly violate privacy...

Will the Pauls ever successfully distance themselves from allegations of racism? Since they first came to light in 2008, the controversies surrounding the publication of racist newsletters bearing Ron Paul's name has been well- analyzed and well- documented. Senator Rand Paul experienced similar scrutiny a couple of months ago when it was revealed that one of his aides was a talk radio host named "the Southern Avenger" who once belonged to a group advocating Southern secession. Even though the aide resigned last month, Senator Paul has repeatedly tried to defend himself from the controversy in the past couple of weeks.

Now, the Southern Poverty Law Center reports that the elder Paul will provide the keynote address at a week-long conference in Canada sponsored by the Fatima Center, described as "part of the radical traditionalist Catholic movement [and] perhaps the single largest group of hard-core anti-Semites in North America."...The Economist recently noted the historical association between libertarian movements and white identity politics in the United States. On the surface, this may sound strange since the philosophical core of libertarianism, the triumph of individual liberty, implicitly condemns the limitations imposed upon the individual by racial discrimination.

Yet in a country as triumphant of individual freedoms as it is scarred by the history of race, it may not actually be that surprising. The libertarian emphasis on limited government often echoes the state's rights rhetoric used to justify the neo-Confederate movements long associated with the last openly racist elements of American society....

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2013/ ... i-semitis/Ron Paul: His Son’s Jeremiah Wright... Last year marked his last futile run for the White House and he also decided not to run for reelection, formally ending his political career and informally passing the torch to his son. While Ron was widely regarded as something of a crank because of his extreme views about the Federal Reserve and foreign policy, albeit one with an impassioned following,...

But unfortunately for his son, the elder Paul has not retired from public life, meaning that his statements and associations are bound to raise awkward questions for his son. A prime example of this is provided by the Washington Free Beacon, which yesterday reported that Ron Paul will be a featured speaker at a conference run by a group with a record of anti-Semitism.

As the Beacon notes:

Former congressman and presidential candidate Ron Paul is scheduled to give a Sept. 11 keynote address at a conference sponsored by an anti-Semitic organization, the Southern Poverty Law Center reports.

Also slated to speak at the conference is the president of the John Birch Society, a fringe conspiracy-theorist group that was famously denounced by the late William F. Buckley. …

The Fatima Center’s publications have published columns criticizing the Pope for “kowtowing” to the “Synagogue of Satan,” argued that Jews are attempting to undermine the Catholic Church on behalf of Satan, and claiming that “Zionist billionaires” have been “financially raping” the Russian people. The organization also promotes New World Order conspiracy theories.

SPLC reports that the group’s leader, Father Nicholas Gruner, has attended Holocaust denial conferences. Gruner will speak prior to Paul at the Fatima conference, according to the posted schedule.

As the Beacon also notes, Ron Paul came under fire for publishing newsletters in the 1980s and ’90s with blatantly racist and anti-Semitic material,...

... Ron Paul will either have to cease and desist his extremist statements and associations or Rand will have to start giving him the same treatment Barack Obama gave Rev. Jeremiah Wright. The analogy in which a politician is asked how a longtime mentor and friend impacted his beliefs is quite apt. If Rand doesn’t back away from his father he will soon find that a media that will be out to get him (in contrast to their refusal to hold Obama accountable), as well as a suspicious Republican electorate that wants nothing to do with that sort of extremism, will sink an otherwise viable presidential run.

The Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC), in an article republished by the left-liberal Salon magazine, has issued another of its breathless alarms about “radical Traditionalist Catholics.” This one concerns an upcoming Fatima conference in Niagara Falls (September 8-13) featuring some 27 speakers, including Congressman Ron Paul, which will address, among other topics, the growing tyranny of the modern nation-state and the urgency of the Fatima message for both civic and Church leaders who are seeking peace and social order.

The screaming headline declares: “Ron Paul to be keynote speaker at anti-Semitic conference.” According to SPLC, the anti-Semitism is attributable to Ron Paul himself —an allegation based on old newsletters with which Paul was loosely associated many years ago whose content SPLC deems politically incorrect.

One “radical traditionalist” theme of the conference, quoted by the article, is “a return to sanity in the government of the world and the Church, for the two cannot be separated.”

“Another day, another amusingly hysterical bulletin from SPLC,” said Christopher A. Ferrara, one of the conference speakers. “Ron Paul is not even Catholic, but rather is speaking on secular themes related to the current political and economic crisis. Not every speaker at this conference is my cup of tea, but that is the whole point of the conference: to bring together people from Church and State, from all over the world, to discuss from different perspectives the moral, spiritual, political and economic crises threatening Western civilization.”

“This story is a perfect example of why SPLC has zero credibility, and why a condemnation by that far-Left group of loons has become a badge of honor among the growing number of decent people and groups SPLC has smeared,” Ferrara concluded.

The Southern Poverty Law Center is a hate groupApril 25, 2013By wcvarones

In the distant past, the Southern Poverty Law Center was once a legitimate civil rights organization.

Sadly, it is now a complete farce and a left-wing political machine, labeling everyone to the right of David Brooks a “hate group.”

Well, by its own standards, the SPLC is clearly a hate group, as domestic terrorist Floyd Lee Corkins admitted in a videotaped interview that he was inspired to shoot up the Family Research Council’s headquarters by the SPLC’s hate rhetoric.

For many years now, Focus on the Family (FOTF) has been one of the most respected and influential evangelical ministries in the country, and so it came as quite a shock when, earlier this month, FOTF’s traditional, pro-family views were deemed so extreme that TOMS Shoes founder Blake Mycoskie, himself a member of an evangelical church, decided to break ties with them. He stated, “Had I known the full extent of Focus on the Family’s beliefs, I would not have accepted the invitation to speak at their event.”

Prior to his apology, Mycoskie had been blasted for his association with FOTF, and a blogger on the radically leftist Daily Kos website complained “that Mycoskie and his company TOMS supports one of the quintessential hate groups, Focus on the Family, which was named as a Hate Group by the Southern Poverty Law Center.” Focus on the Family a “quintessential hate group”?

If it’s any consolation, FOTF is not alone. When Texas Gov. Rick Perry announced a stadium prayer event to be held on Aug. 6, he came under heavy and immediate fire, not just over an alleged violation of the separation of church and state, but also because he was cooperating with the American Family Association (AFA), another so-called hate group. Yes, the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) has branded the organization founded by Don Wildmon, best known for his calls for boycotts over morally offensive programming and advertising, as a hate group. (To be technical, the SPLC labeled them an “anti-gay group” but featured them on the same list with the other “hate groups.” Since then, the liberal media, almost without exception, has labeled the AFA an SPLC-designated hate group. And because the SPLC in the past labeled FOTF an “anti-gay group,” they too are considered to be on the SPLC’s hate group list.)

What is the SPLC’s criteria for such extreme charges? It claims that the groups in question (which include the Family Research Council and Concerned Women for America) knowingly disseminate false information and demonizing propaganda about lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people, as documented by them (I use the word “documented” lightly) in their report “10 Anti-Gay Myths Debunked,” published late last year.

And while the report itself is nothing new, what is new is that its findings are now coming to national attention through these recent events. And many people, rather than questioning the SPLC, are instead questioning these venerable family organizations. Perhaps it is time to ask this question: Is it the SPLC that should be designated a hate group? Are they the ones spreading false information and demonizing propaganda about other groups, thereby defaming their good names and placing them in the ranks of the KKK and neo-Nazis?

It should first be recalled that the actual SPLC report was terribly flawed, as I and a number of others pointed out. For example, based on the report, if you state that kids do best when raised by a mom and dad (as opposed to two moms or two dads), you are propagating a known falsehood. Or if you agree with the many therapists and psychologists who argue that a child’s upbringing and early-life experiences (including being sexually abused) play a major role in the development of his or her sexual orientation, you are propagating a known falsehood. The same is true if you claim that hate crime laws could lead to the arresting of pastors who criticize homosexuality (this has already happened in Sweden, England and Canada), or if you argue that it would be detrimental to the military to have gays serving openly. Yes, according to the SPLC, disseminating such views officially constitutes “hate.”

All of which begs the question: Is the SPLC, by its own criteria, the real hate group? It still carries weight in plenty of circles here in America, and so when it categorizes an organization as a hate group, many people of good conscience are influenced by that designation, one which is quite stigmatizing and destructive, as evidenced by the recent events involving FOTF and AFA mentioned above. Yet it is the leaders of the SPLC who are either irresponsibly attacking other fine organizations, or worse still, knowingly defaming them.

Who then deserves the title of “hate group,” Focus on the Family or the Southern Poverty Law Center? Who has been guilty of demonizing others and spreading hurtful, inaccurate information? Whose actions and words have been hateful? The record speaks for itself.

Though always left of center, the Alabama-based Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) once had a reputation as a fairly objective civil rights group. Founded by direct-marketing millionaire Morris Dees and partner Joseph Levin Jr. in 1971, the SPLC made important and honorable contributions to many of the historic civil rights gains of the 20th Century. According to its own materials, the SPLC was "internationally known for tracking and exposing the activities of hate groups."

Alas, "power corrupts," as it goes, and the SPLC, having amassed tremendous power and wealth over the years, has regrettably become corrupt to its core. By way of an ever-escalating wave of "us-versus-them" money-grubbing schemes, Today's SPLC has morphed into a far-left political activist outfit, famous for promoting a panoply of extreme liberal causes.

Ken Silverstein, writing for Harper's Magazine, addressed this untoward metamorphosis in 2000: "Today's SPLC spends most of its time — and money — on a relentless fund-raising campaign, peddling memberships in the church of tolerance with all the zeal of a circuit rider passing the collection plate. 'He's the Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker of the civil rights movement,' renowned anti-death-penalty lawyer Millard Farmer says of Dees, his former associate, 'though I don't mean to malign Jim and Tammy Faye.'

"The American Institute of Philanthropy gives the Center one of the worst ratings of any group it monitors," continued Silverstein. "Morris Dees doesn't need your financial support. The SPLC is already the wealthiest civil rights group in America, though [its fundraising literature] quite naturally omits that fact. ... 'Morris and I...shared the overriding purpose of making a pile of money,' recalls Dees's business partner, a lawyer named Millard Fuller (not to be confused with Millard Farmer). 'We were not particular about how we did it; we just wanted to be independently rich.'" (You say Fuller. I say Farmer. The two Millards say "call the whole thing off.")

So, what happens when a dragon slayer — paid per dragon head — runs out of real dragons to slay? Well, he invents new ones, of course. Gotta keep those sprinklers-a-sprinklin.' (According to Harper's, "Dees bought a 200-acre estate appointed with tennis courts, a pool, and stables." SPLC's 2008 Form-990 shows net assets of over 219 million at the beginning of that year. Yup, there's a spate to be made in the hate trade.)

Silverstein explains:

"The Ku Klux Klan, the SPLC's most lucrative nemesis, has shrunk from 4 million members in the 1920s to an estimated 2,000 today [year 2000], as many as 10 percent of whom are thought to be FBI informants. But news of a declining Klan does not make for inclining donations to Morris Dees and Co., which is why the SPLC honors nearly every nationally covered 'hate crime' with direct-mail alarums full of nightmarish invocations of 'armed Klan paramilitary forces' and 'violent neo-Nazi extremists...'"

So, sadly — shamefully, really — today's SPLC has become nothing more than a "non-profit" extension of the black helicopter, Huffpo-wing of the Democratic Party — a gaggle of partisan hacks bent on lining their pockets, defaming good people (along with the bad) and filling DNC coffers. (SPLC Director Mark Potok even doubles as a Huffington Post columnist. Seriously. They make it that easy.)

The real problem lies in the fact, however, that the SPLC holds itself out as an objective monitor of potentially violent or subversive hate groups. It presents to municipal, state and federal law enforcement, regular "intelligence files" and an annual "Year in Hate" report. Ostensibly, these reports contain facts — even actionable intelligence — aimed at helping law enforcement officials prevent and/or monitor potentially violent criminal activity.

Then? Perhaps. Now? Not so much.

In recent years the SPLC reports have been utterly tainted — weaponized and used against the leftist group's ideological and political adversaries. This is a despicable, bad faith abuse of others' good will, and of the SPLC's past reputation.

Case in point: Recently, the SPLC came under fire for comparing the "Tea Party" movement and other grassroots conservatives to "terrorists." Potok slandered "Tea Party" goers, suggesting that "they are shot through with rich veins of radical ideas, conspiracy theories and racism," and are widely linked to "hate" and "vigilante groups." Of course there are always a few nuts in any movement, but clearly Potok's intent was to defame tens of millions of patriotic "Tea Partiers," simply because he disagrees with them.

It was earlier reported that Janet Napolitano and the Department of Homeland Security relied upon similar reports by the SPLC in preparing the DHS' own slanderous — now infamous — "Right Wing Extremist" report. You may recall: it painted pretty much all conservatives with that broad, multi-colored brush of "domestic terrorism." (The report was later pulled, and Napolitano forced to apologize in shame.)

Even more recently, the SPLC launched another in a series of politically motivated attacks against a well-respected Christian organization. The group arbitrarily tagged as an official "hate group" Americans for Truth about Homosexuality (AFTAH).

AFTAH promotes biblical morality, opposes the radical homosexual activist lobby and publicly decries both violence and hatred against homosexuals or anyone else. Although it has been in operation for a number of years, the SPLC only recently labeled AFTAH a "hate group" after being pressured by the Chicago-based "Gay Liberation Network" to do so.

GLN is a fringe group of self-described Marxists and sexual anarchists best known for disrupting peaceful Christian gatherings with raucous, bullhorn laden protests. In a twist most ironic, GLN leader Bob Schwartz once threatened AFTAH founder Peter LaBarbera in front of witnesses, telling him that if the police weren't present at a rally, he would have pushed LaBarbera into oncoming traffic. ("Hate crime, anyone?" Love that "tolerance" and "diversity." Where's the SPLC when you need them?)

You can only cry wolf so many times before people begin to ignore you. Today, the SPLC's "hate group" reports have begun to resonate almost exclusively within a far-left echo chamber. Newsflash: Moveon.org wants Bush tried as a "war criminal," Charlie Sheen thinks the U.S. government was behind 9/11 and, yes, the SPLC has once again awarded its now meaningless "hate group" distinction to yet another conservative organization with which it is admittedly — in every way — both politically and ideologically opposed. Who would've thunk it?

Don't get me wrong. Again, in the past, the SPLC has actually done some good by identifying and monitoring real hate groups such as the KKK, neo-Nazis and Skin Heads.

But now, regrettably, the SPLC has traded in its limited usefulness for radical left-wing activism. It has become much like that which it previously sought to expose. Today it uses the very tactics employed by white nationalists and other bona fide hate groups to malign large groups of people whom the SPLC most decidedly "hates."

It's nauseatingly transparent. With empty, ad hominem attacks and pejorative "hate group" smears, the SPLC strives to politically marginalize its ideological opponents. It's a cynical "guilt-by-false-association" scheme, through which the SPLC hopes — in the public mind's eye — to equate Christians, "Tea Party" conservatives and other traditionalists to the KKK and neo-Nazis.

Still, in going after Americans for Truth, the GLN surprisingly betrayed its SPLC ally by publicly acknowledging SPLC's nefarious tactics. GLN boasted that this was the strategy all along. The Gay Liberation Network's stated goal in goading the SPLC to label AFTAH a "hate group" was to "help assist" in AFTAH's "political marginalization."

Of course, by kowtowing to an already deeply marginalized GLN; by so obviously abusing its once-respectable reputation; and by spending its last remaining political capital on such folly, the SPLC has only succeeded in further marginalizing itself.

But, as they say: What's good for the goose... Let's try it on for size. It's a "hate group," mudslinging good time! In exercise of the SPLC's trademark "I-know-you-are-but-what-am-I" criterion for arbitrarily determining "hate group" status, I hereby declare the Southern Poverty Law Center an "anti-Christian, anti-conservative hate group." There, it's official. Try it. It's fun!

But seriously, if AFTAH is a "hate group," then so is Liberty Counsel, Focus on the Family, Family Research Council, American Family Association, the Southern Baptist Convention and the Roman Catholic Church. Any group that observes and defends traditional sexual morality would have to be labeled such.

Heck, for that matter, so would the U.S. Armed Forces, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the FDA. These groups publically expose the undeniable medical and societal pitfalls associated with the homosexual lifestyle and, therefore, must be "hate groups," right?

Of course, like any bully, the SPLC only goes after those it believes it can push around. But really, it confers a badge of honor upon every legitimate Christian and conservative organization it so disingenuously mislabels "hate group." It's a tacit admission by the SPLC that these groups represent a political threat; that their activities undermine the SPLC's not-so-thinly-veiled, left-wing agenda. (Kind of like winning a conservative Grammy.)

Indeed, I can't speak for the many conservative and Christian organizations and ministries with which I'm associated. And of course I hate absolutely no one. Nonetheless, I'd like to officially request that the SPLC add my name to its spurious "anti-gay hate list." It's good for one's conservative and biblical bona fides."

(Hater Matt Barber hatefully sits on the hate-filled board of the official SPLC "hate group" Americans for Truth.)

The Singing Nuns are traditional Catholic Sisters, members of the Congregation of Mary Immaculate Queen. In other words, they wear their full-length blue habits all the time — not just on special occasions or when they are singing. Their motherhouse, St. Michael’s Convent, is located at Mount St. Michael, just north of Spokane, Washington.

What do the Aryan Nations, the Ku Klux Klan and the home of Spokane’s Singing Nuns have in common?

They’re all on the Southern Poverty Law Center’s map of “hate groups” in the Northwest.

Mount St. Michael, home to a Latin Rite or Tridentine Catholic church, school and convent north of Spokane, has been listed since 2006 by the law center as a radical traditional Catholic group and accused of anti-Semitic activities.

Last week, the law center released the annual update of its “hate map” of groups around the country, which includes an interactive, easy-to-use online graphic. Mount St. Michael is one of 16 organizations mapped for Washington, sharing the state listing with a potpourri of neo-Nazi, Klan, Christian Identity, black separatist, white nationalist and racist skinhead groups.

The Alabama-based watchdog organization defends the St. Michael listing, but it surprised one of its local allies and prompted one longtime critic to say the center was showing its political bias.

The Rev. Casimir Puskorius, pastor of Mount St. Michael, calls the listing “very unfair” and contends it’s a result of a liberal organization taking issue with the teachings of a conservative Christian group.

“We considered suing them, some years ago, but they have more resources than us,” Puskorius said.

In February a deranged domestic terrorist who shot up a conservative group’s headquarters in Washington DC, admitted he got his information from the far left SPLC.

The head of a controversial organization that critics describe as anti-Semitic defended his activism and questioned the facts behind the Holocaust one day after former Rep. Ron Paul was asked about participating in a conference organized by the group.

The Fatima Center, a “grassroots association of Catholic priests and lay people,” is hosting a conference in early September at which Paul will give the keynote address on September 11th. The organization has published articles claiming that Jews are attempting to undermine the Catholic Church on behalf of Satan and that “Zionist billionaires” are guilty of “financially raping” Russia’s people.

Father Nicholas Gruner, who runs the Fatima Center, rejected the allegations that his group was anti-Semitic in an interview with the Free Beacon on Friday.

“I object to the charges absolutely, no question about it,” Gruner said. “I am not anti-Semitic … I’m not against any particular people, race or nation because of their people, race or nation.”

However, Gruner added he is skeptical that 6 million Jews were killed in the Holocaust.

“What exactly is Holocaust denial?” Bruner said. “Are we talking about the six million Jews that are alleged to been killed by Hitler?”

“A question that nobody has been able to answer for me, is how can you have six million die, and have 13 million left, when you only had 13 million to start with?” Bruner continued. “I think it’s impossible. But you know, I’m open-minded. I’ll listen to somebody who can prove it otherwise.”

He also requested the spelling of Free Beacon Editor In Chief Matthew Continetti’s last name, remarking that “it sounds like an Italian name, is that right?”

Paul blasted his opponents for engaging in “demagoguery” and “falsehoods” in a Reddit discussion on Thursday after the Free Beacon reported he is scheduled to deliver the keynote address at the “Fatima: Path to Peace” conference on September 11.

Paul called the reports “disturbing,” though he also added that he had not read them.

Additionally, he suggested that his political opponents might be behind the criticism of the Fatima Center and indicated that he still plans to speak at the event.

“The article that came out yesterday is disturbing, and I have not read it yet, but the question is raised—exactly who is making the allegations,” wrote Paul, in response to a question about his scheduled speech. “I have not yet sorted it out, and it makes me uneasy, but frequently the opposition uses tactics which are pure demagoguery and falsehoods, so I’m looking into it.”

Bruner praised Paul to the Free Beacon, saying that he has “read [Paul’s] material for 20-years-plus.”

Paul previously came under fire anti-Semitic and racist newsletters published under his name in the 1980s and 1990s.

The idea that Catholics would have traditional prejudices toward Jews is just heinous, isn't it? Centuries of bullshit religious teaching about sin-forgiving saviors and special people of god couldn't have made people stupid, could it? After all, believing any crazy fucking thing you want and taking it very seriously is the core of The American Way.

How can two competing "truths" not clash, for Earth's sake? Everybody knows the Catholics stood helpless in the wake of Hitler's exterminations. They might have been next.

But, of course, we can't speak poorly of Jews because Jews are universally loved and if we don't agree with everything they desire we are against them and dirty anti-Semites. Jews are totally innocent victims of Christians and Muslims, and it isn't fair because Jews are not bigoted or racist, just ask any Arab.

The human race is going nowhere until we get past religious identity.

Ron Paul can speak at this conference if he wishes. It's called freedom of speech. History is written by the victors, we all know that. If someone else has a different version of events, let him speak also. If some one is a bigot or a racist or an anti-Jew, then let him speak also, so that we may know who they are. If someone sees a racist everywhere he looks, then let him speak...but if any of these folks keeps talking too long, tell them to shut the fuck up.

Well, I'm not sure: either statistics are not Mr Gruner's strength or has he has access to a different source that he doesn't reveal. With sincere apologies to those who detest statistics, I would postulate the following.

The Nazi estimate at the Wannsee Conference in 1942 (where the final solution is said to have been decided upon) for the European Jewish population was 11 million.

Now, the full scale holocaust (i.e. mass-gassings in concentration camps) had not yet begun although there had been numerous mass-shootings, particularly in the Ukraine and Baltic areas; this explains why e.g. Estonia is free of Jews in January 1942. However, they had not yet killed 2 million by this point in time.

Many historians agree that the Wannsee Conference from which the above statistics come, were the trigger for the systematic liquidation of Jews in Europe. Thus even by Nazi figures the entire Jewish population of Europe was approximately over 11 million. It must also be added that the Nazi figures also include 700, 000 Jews in Vichy France, which presumably includes overseas possessions as the generally accepted number is around 200,000. Also the number in unoccupied Europe is a guesstimate as they couldn't count all the Jews e.g. in the USSR, as the Soviets weren't about to give them figures.

The World Jewish Council's figures in 1933 (before the Holocaust) for Europe was lower, around 9.5 million.

Thus Gruner's 13 million number would appear to be in excess by around 2 million according to Nazi pre-holocaust figures and by 3 and a half million by Jewish figures.

If he is talking about world Jewry, I would be interested where he gets the figures as the Jewish estimated number for 1933 is 15 million.

As to his "simple question", I think there's a fairly simple answer:Censuses carried out in e.g. Poland in 1950 reveal the following: Jewish population 45 000 [3 million in 1942], What has happened to the Jews here? Now emigration from Communist countries was, at this point in time notoriously difficult, although I am sure some survivors of the camps did manage to emigrate. If they were emigrating, they can't have all gone to Israel as it only had a population of around 1 300 000 in 1950. What happened to an awful lot of Polish Jews?

I suppose you could always argue that the Communists artificially reduced their numbers as part of a Jewish plot.

Edited to correct incorrect maths - sorry!

_________________"I have learned from my mistakes, and I am sure I can repeat them exactly."

Last edited by Caputh on Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:32 am, edited 4 times in total.

Along with his racist and homophobic newsletters, his direct ties to and praise for leaders of white supremacist groups and holocaust deniers, his wacky religious fanaticism, his direct ties to the guy who built the system for the NSA's spy program used to invade the privacy rights of the civilian population, his acceptance of funding from said spying and hate groups and numerous speaking engagements at their meetings, his anti-Lincoln and Civil War era amendments to the US Constitution and his pro-war votes, Ron Paul ain't what his brainwashed minions of kooky cult followers are led to believe him to be.

There's more than enough adequately documented (cough) undeniably overwhelming a compelling evidence and proof to completely discredit Ron Paul from what his fan club has been thoroughly duped into believing.

Ron Paul spoke at the "Path to Peace Conference". The Remnant Newspaper ( national Catholic Newspaper) reports as follows...

"NIAGARA, Sept. 8 -- Despite a Southern Poverty Law Center attempt to derail the Fatima Center's "Path to Peace Conference" in Niagara Falls this week, the event went off without a hitch, and, in fact, attendance numbers exceeded the organizers' expectations.

During the run-up to the Conference last week, liberal newspapers and blogs, relying on a SPLC attack piece against the Fatima Center, initiated an all-out media blitz intended to dissuade the Conference's keynote speaker, Ron Paul, from attending the event. When Paul gave no indication of backing out, however, the media rhetoric began to border on the hysterical, with some reports even going so far as to accuse the former congressman himself of being an anti-Semite.

Dismissing the outrageous charge against the Fatima Center as nothing less than Catholic bashing during an interview on MSNBC, Dr. Paul proceeded to attend the Conference as planned, and in fact brought down the house on Wednesday evening with a powerful, hour-long speech that evoked frequent applause and was interrupted by several standing ovations.

"Jesus is the Prince of Peace," Paul reminded his audience, and together we must all "stand for peace," even with those who don’t share our religion or "agree with us on every issue."

The Conference boasted an impressive international roster of speakers and attendees, which included the Patriarch from Syria, several members of Parliament, bishops from all around the world, pro-life legends such as Joe Sheidler, politicians, newspaper publishers such as Michael J. Matt of The Remnant and John Vennari of Catholic Family News, Canadian media personalities, journalists with permanent accreditation at the United Nations and hundreds of distinguished guests.

When it became clear that Ron Paul would not be intimidated by the SPLC attack campaign, a few far-Left groups threatened on-site protests of the Conference. Those treats were taken seriously enough to warrant a police presence at the Scotiabank Convention Center in Niagara throughout the week.

In the end, not a single protester showed up and nor, for that matter, did anyone from the "outraged" liberal press-- an odd turn of events that left many attendees questioning if anyone in the media had ever actually taken the Southern Poverty Law Center's hysterical fear mongering seriously. After all, if the Conference were really organized by the “largest group of anti-Semites in North America" (according to the SPLC) why didn't a single reporter stop by to check it out? Obviously, there was never anything substantive to the SPLC's libelous charges, and the local media folks knew it.

In the above photo Dr. Ron Paul can be seen chatting with Fr. Gruner, who is seated next to His Beatitude Mar Ignatius Joseph III Younan, the Syrian Catholic Patriarch of Antioch, who flew in from Syria for the Fatima Center's Conference. Quite obviously the Fatima Conference was a major success, with the added dimension of having exposed the Southern Poverty Law Center as the proverbial little mouse that roared.

God bless Ron Paul and all of the speakers and dignitaries—Catholic and non-Catholic—who refused to be bullied by the SPLC, and instead came together for genuine dialogue and to send a powerful message of peace to the world at the very moment when peace is needed most."

In case you're wondering what the Fatima Center credo is, this is from their website...

"10 FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ABOUT FATIMA1. WHAT IS THE MESSAGE OF FATIMA?

The Message of Fatima consists of a number of precise predictions, requests, warnings and promises concerning the Faith and the world which were conveyed by the Blessed Virgin Mary to three shepherd children--Lucia, Jacinta and Francisco--in a series of apparitions at Fatima, Portugal from May to October 1917.

2. WHY SHOULD I BELIEVE THE MESSAGE OF FATIMA?

You should believe the Message of Fatima because:

(1) It was confirmed by an unprecedented public miracle, the Miracle of the Sun, which occurred at precisely the moment Lucia said it would. More than 70,000 people, including Masons, communists and atheists, saw the sun, contrary to all cosmic laws, twirl in the sky, throw off colors and descend to earth. The event was reported in newspapers around the world, including the New York Times.

(2) All of the Popes since the Fatima Miracle have recognized that the Message is authentic. Several Popes have gone to Fatima in person, including Paul VI, John Paul I and John Paul II. John Paul II said at Fatima in 1982 that "the Message of Fatima imposes an obligation on the Church."

(3) Many other miracles have been performed by God authenticating the Fatima Message as coming from Him, not only at the time of the Miracle of the Sun, October 13, 1917, but down the years to the present day, miracles of conversions and cures which science cannot explain by natural means.

(4) The Message of Fatima accurately predicted world events, which proves that it is a true prophecy.

3. WHAT DID THE MESSAGE OF FATIMA PREDICT?

The Message of Fatima accurately predicted in 1917 all of the following events which came to pass:

(1) the end of World War I;

(2) the emergence of Russia as a world power which would "spread its errors (including Communism) throughout the world ... raising up wars and persecutions against the Church";

(3) the election of a Pope who would be named Pius XI;

(4) the waging of a second World War following a strange light in the night sky.

The Message of Fatima also predicted that if the requests of the Virgin Mary at Fatima are not honored, many souls will be lost, "the Holy Father will have much to suffer", there will be further wars and persecutions of the Church and "various nations will be annihilated." The annihilation of nations predicted at Fatima has not yet occurred, but many fear that it will soon happen, given the growing immorality and corruption of the world.

4. WHAT DOES THE MESSAGE OF FATIMA REQUEST?

At Fatima Our Lady said that God wished to establish in the world devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Our Lady said that many souls would be saved from Hell and the annihilation of nations averted if, in time, devotion to Her Immaculate Heart were established principally by these two means:

1) the Consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary by the Pope together with the world's bishops in a solemn public ceremony, and

(2) the practice or receiving Holy Communion (and other specific devotions of about 1/2 hour in duration) in reparation for the sins committed against the Blessed Virgin Mary, on the first Saturdays of five consecutive months--a practice known to Catholics as "the First Saturday" devotion.

5. HAVE THESE REQUESTS OF OUR LADY OF FATIMA BEEN HONORED?

No, not entirely. A number of the Faithful practice the "First Saturday" devotion, but Russia has yet to be consecrated to the Immaculate Heart of Mary in a solemn public ceremony conducted by the Pope together with the world's Catholic bishops.

In 1982 the last surviving Fatima seer, Lucia, who is now a cloistered nun living in Coimbra, Portugal, was asked if an attempted consecration by Pope John Paul II had sufficed. She replied that it did not suffice, because Russia was not mentioned and the world's bishops had not participated. Another attempted consecration in 1984 likewise did not mention Russia or involve the participation of many of the world's bishops, and Sister Lucia stated immediately afterwards that this consecration, too, had failed to meet Our Lady's requirements.

6. WHAT DOES THE MESSAGE OF FATIMA WARN?

It warns that if the requests of Our Lady of Fatima for the Consecration of Russia and the First Saturday devotion are not honored, the Church will be persecuted, there will be other major wars, the Holy Father will have much to suffer and various nations will be annihilated. Many nations will be enslaved by Russian militant atheists. Most important, many souls will be lost.

7. WHAT DOES THE MESSAGE OF FATIMA PROMISE?

The Message of Fatima promises that if the requests of Our Lady of Fatima are carried out "My Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will Consecrate Russia to Me, which will be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to mankind."

8. ISN'T IT TRUE THAT THE CONSECRATION OF RUSSIA WAS DONE IN 1984 AND THAT THE "FALL OF COMMUNISM" PROVES THAT THE CONSECRATION WAS EFFECTIVE AND THAT RUSSIA IS NOW CONVERTING?

No, it is not true. We know it is not true because:

(1) On March 25, 1984, after the consecration of the world, Pope John Paul II said twice that Our Lady of Fatima's request for the consecration of Russia was not done.

(2) Soon after the attempted Consecration of 1984, which did not mention Russia or involve the participation of the world's bishops, Sister Lucia stated it was insufficient because it did not meet the requirements specified to her by Our Lady.

(3) Since 1984 the moral and spiritual state of the world has obviously grown far worse: In the past 14 years there have been 600 million abortions, and wars have broken out all over the world. Mercy-killing and homosexual acts have been "legalized". In Russia itself a new law has just been passed which discriminates against the Catholic Church and in favor of Islam, Buddhism, Judaism and the Orthodox churches which forcibly occupied Catholic parishes under the Communists. Thus it is clear Russia is not converted to the Catholic Faith as Our Lady of Fatima promised would happen if Her request was done.

(4) There have been very few conversions to Catholicism in Russia over the past fourteen years. In all of Russia today there are only 300,000 Catholics--much less than one percent of the Russian population. By comparison, after Our Lady appeared at Guadalupe, Mexico in the 16th Century, more than 7 million Mexicans converted from paganism to the Catholic Faith within nine years and Mexico became a Catholic country.

9. WHY IS THE MESSAGE OF FATIMA IMPORTANT TO ME AND MY FAMILY?

The Message of Fatima is important to you and your family because it involves the salvation of souls, peace in the world and, if the requests of Our Lady of Fatima are not carried out, the consequences are the annihilation of nations and the enslavement of all mankind under militant atheists of Russia.

10. BUT ISN'T THE MESSAGE OF FATIMA JUST A PRIVATE REVELATION WHICH NO CATHOLIC HAS TO BELIEVE?

No, it is not just a private revelation. It is a public, prophetic revelation given by the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God. It is not to be confused with "Revelation" or as it is also called, the Deposit of the Faith, which ended with the death of the last Apostle. But public, prophetic revelation must not be despised. The Virgin Mary's prophecy was confirmed by a public miracle and authenticated by a whole line of Popes. Also, its predictions have come true.

So, while belief in the Message of Fatima may not strictly be required of Catholics as an article of faith, one would be very foolish to disregard such an obviously authentic message from Heaven. As St. Paul taught: "Despise not prophecies, but prove all things; hold fast to that which is good." (1 Thess. 5:20-21) The prophecy of Fatima has been proven worthy of belief. We should not despise it, but rather hold fast to what Our Lady told us at Fatima."

I didn't (yet) read the article caputh provided above but the smear campaign against Ron Paul is a real low by the liberal establishment. I guess they are actually going after Rand at this point, the guilt by association tactic.

If the Miracle of the Sun actually happened, why don't more people know about it? Seems like something witnessed by 70,000 people would make the history books. From what I've read, the Church kept the prophecies secret until after they came "true".It's a spiritual-political gambit against atheists...nothing unusual about that.

The SPLC is an organization that has found a cash cow by suing people for discrimination. Once they started making money, everyone was suddenly a racist in their eyes.

A racist works openly to to express racist ideas and agendas. This Fatima group or Ron Paul are not actively promoting a racist agenda, so that makes them "not racists". What is in the individual heart cannot be known, and is really no one's business.

If the Miracle of the Sun actually happened, why don't more people know about it? Seems like something witnessed by 70,000 people would make the history books. From what I've read, the Church kept the prophecies secret until after they came "true".It's a spiritual-political gambit against atheists...nothing unusual about that.

The SPLC is an organization that has found a cash cow by suing people for discrimination. Once they started making money, everyone was suddenly a racist in their eyes.

A racist works openly to to express racist ideas and agendas. This Fatima group or Ron Paul are not actively promoting a racist agenda, so that makes them "not racists". What is in the individual heart cannot be known, and is really no one's business.

Slander, they name is Southern Poverty Law Center.

Nice to see you posting again, Rope. As a pro-Paul guy, I'd like to ask you for your take.

The second part of your post I will take as read. Let's accept, for the sake of argument, that both Paul and the Fatima Center are, as they claim, not racist or even anti-semitic.

However, the first part is still there. You (quite rightly IMO) appear to find the ideas of the Fatima Center a bit, er, odd. This rather poses the further question - what is Ron Paul doing addressing a bunch of Catholics whose ideas many (even some Catholics) would describe as faintly delusional?

There are a number of possible reasons IMO.

i) Ron Paul shares their beliefs.

ii) Ron Paul doesn't share their beliefs but was looking for a suitable forum to project an anti-war message - if so, I don't think he's been very successful as a) most non-Fatima members immediate reaction would be to ask themselves why he's associating with a bunch of screwballs b) most of the press seem to have ignored the conference.

iii) Ron Paul didn't know what their credo was when he held the speech.

My three points are, of course, complete speculation- do you have any alternative explanations/speculation?

_________________"I have learned from my mistakes, and I am sure I can repeat them exactly."

.....The SPLC is an organization that has found a cash cow by suing people for discrimination. Once they started making money, everyone was suddenly a racist in their eyes.

Can you substantiate this, or is it just your personal opinion? I think their aim is true. Their nonprofit status 501(c) paperwork is online, as are their federal tax forms.... a cursory look doesn't reveal income from suing people....

A rope leash wrote:

A racist works openly to to express racist ideas and agendas. This Fatima group or Ron Paul are not actively promoting a racist agenda, so that makes them "not racists". What is in the individual heart cannot be known, and is really no one's business.

Agreed about the heart. It is what it is. It wants what it wants. But, are you saying that making racist statements in public doesn't reveal the person's racism if he/she isn't actually pushing an overt agenda?

A rope leash wrote:

Slander, they name is Southern Poverty Law Center.

Again, I think the SPLC is an incredible organization, doing work that very few others do, if any. Can you provide support for this?

_________________Everytime we picked a booger we'd flip it on this one winduh. Every night we'd contribute, 2, 3, 4 boogers. We had to use a putty knife, man, to get them damn things off the winduh. There was some goober ones that weren't even hard...

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