Wehrmacht - New Commander Mod Official Discussion

Comments

@Andy_RE By the way, regarding the Forward HQ ability, the actual ability to retreat to the Forward HQ appears to not exist in game, as usually there would be a separate button for units to retreat to the Forward HQ alongside the normal retreat to HQ button (coming from my experience with the original ability before this preview mod in-game.) I don't know if that's a WIP or just a bug.

CP 0 Assault Grenadiers
Unit seem to Up, with same cost as Assault engineer it has allot less utility and can not get an early flamer while generally it is facing unit that are good close range

Compared to CP 1 Cav riflemen it has less utility and can upgrade to less firepower since they can get 2 Thompson +1 bar.

The upgrade comes really late and even then the units is UP for cost. Total cost is 306+60 mu yet the performance is far from that.

Suggestion:
Possible change could include some of the following:
Replacing sprint with "diversion" (Ostheer officer) then units could be more useful in working together with grenadiers defending them from enemy units the close in.

Model units after Cav riflmen allow 2 STGs upgrade.

Replace the individual upgrade with a global upgrade similar to bolster infatry and units after upgrade could come as 6 men.

Replace the unit with Panzer-Pionier unit modeled after USF Assault engineers.
Change vet bonuses to include a reinforcement discount.

One might need to change CP or cost after these changes.

CP 0 Forward supply Station
In game description say it can work also as forward retreat point while it does not seem so.

Ability is currently OP on certain maps, the difference in CP from the UKF one is also weird.
Suggestion:
Generally about this abilities I would suggest:
Building returns to full health once upgrade, maybe remove set of fire critical but increase damage from flame weapons.

Ability allow upgrade to building allow player to decide how much he want to invest.
For instance:
150MP/20fu gives you 2 engineer
100MP/10fu upgrade now add 2 more engineers
100MP/10fu upgrade now allow reinforcement

Specifically about Ostheer one could add a Reckon plane with single pass and the repair bunker.

CP 0 Panzer IV H
Moving unit to HQ was a good change.

Suggestion:
Imo one should modeling Panzer IV H after Sherman 76 with 2 firing mode HE and AP. The unit would be more useful.

The rear armor of the unit need to be increased.
Combat blitz should be replaced by blitzkrieg.

CP 2 (passive)Breakthrough Equipment
PG grenade seems useful

Pioneer upgrade seems to expensive investing 30+30-30+60 munition in 4 men pioneers seem to much especially compared to 5 men pioneer squad available to infatry doctrine the can repair 25% faster than normal engineers.

Satchel in a 4 men squad will probably have limited uses.

Destroy cover as a map manipulation ability is very strong.

Suggestion:
I would suggest the following:
merge the upgrade to minesweepers upgrade for repair speed and destroy cover
and to flamer for satchel so that they become available for no extra munition cost

Increase the Cd on destroy cover for all units maybe add 5 mu cost.

CP 15 Tiger Ace
The commander animation seem weird.

This unit does not seem enough to sell the commander.

Suggestion:
Have the commander appear only when spearhead is on, it will also make sense with extended vision.

I would either replace the unit or change the mechanism to be more interesting.

General:
The commander seem to be badly designed:
Repair available from pioneers, supply station and self-repair for Tiger. It is simply too much overlap.

Commander provides "superior" infatry, superior medium and Super heavy making the commander weaker in 1vs1 more powerful in 4vs4. From design point of view commander should get improve units is some area and not so many.

Suggestion:
One could test some of the following changes
Replace the Panzer IV H with the Panzer IV D modeled after T-34/76. That would allow players to afford both Panzer IV D and Tiger in 1vs1.

Replace the Tiger with Stuka/JP/hezter/luch or some other ability and redesign the Panzer IV H after Sherman 76. That would allow the Panzer to counter units like the KV-1, Churchill...that currently require building stug or Panther.

Replace assault grenadier with mortar HT that is currently inferior to the USF one, leaving the commander "weaker" in infatry but focuses on armor.

Another option would be to use the 6 men pioneer squad from the campaign.

The removal of the radio intercept to use Forward Supply Station was in my opinion pretty meh. Radio Intercept gave a unique part to the doctrine, giving me information about what the enemy was doing. I would remove the forward supply station and bring back radio intercept. I mean you have pioneers, the tiger ace also have a self repair ability (very useful)
and as for doctrine you have defensive doctrine with their repair bunkers (even though its more expensive).

Giving the Assault Grenadier squad leader upgrade a bonus was good, but I feel like if you gave them one stg 44 it would make them scale better into the late game.

@Kaizhur262 said:
The removal of the radio intercept to use Forward Supply Station was in my opinion pretty meh. Radio Intercept gave a unique part to the doctrine, giving me information about what the enemy was doing. I would remove the forward supply station and bring back radio intercept.

Radio Intercept was removed because it was broken for Ostheer and couldn't be fixed.
It had no sound and sometimes it would stop working.

I was voting for the good 1v1, 2v2 commander with 0 cp call-in infantry, tiger ace, and very good recon ability, I didn't vote for the commander which focuses on repairs in team games.

I just don't understand the reason behind swapping radio intercept (yes I know it didn't work properly) for the FSS.
I think it should be replaced with the other, good (or maybe even new?) recon ability like: early warning system, cheap recon plane, or maybe something similiar to the soviet spy network from partisan commander?

I think this commander already had enough repair abilities, you can upgrade pioneers so they can repair faster, and tiger ace has self-repair ability.

Costing no CP allows you to cap a critical strategic building as soon as 1:20 into the game! or 2:00 minutes into the game if you encounter the enemy infantry and it is preventing you from capturing a key territory point for you to rush your Forward Supply Station.

This will prevent enemy units from garrison inside buildings as they walk to the center of the map for the first time

The enemy will barely have around 20 to 25 Ammunitions by that time (nothing to deal against that building)

The Wermacht will be allowed to reinforce all his army very fast into the game while having them fighting on the frontline (almost no MP invested to capture territory since you can simply reinforce your 2 initial units while been in combat) Allowing you to built Ammo or Fuel Caches instead of recruiting a bigger army. Currently a very viable and cheesy strategy in Version 3.0

In 2v2s or with more players involved this ability becomes a nightmare to play against since everyone gets more income in less time

Allies will take so many more minutes to bring Mortars to try to deal with that rushed building (A Church, big houses or a small house in the base of cases)

This Forward Supply Station synergies extremely well with instant Assault Grenadiers call-in with Sprint costing only 10ammo. (Rush 2 or 3 territories and set your building for a free win, if fuel is rushed it gets worse)

Assault Grenadiers can rush a bunker next to the Forward Command Supply Station and upgrade it with healers for a complete OP combo, after forcing the enemy to retreat with their Sprint ability only costing 10 Ammo.

Suggestions:

Increase the CP required to 2 or 3 for this ability (As any other Forward Command/Supply station requires)

Increase the fuel from 30 to 35 or 40

Increase the cost of Sprint ability from 10 to 20, so they can't rush for fuel and territory very soon with this ability (10 Ammo ability cost for an instant 280mp call in infantry unit with close combat superiority is still a big advantage to force a retreat on any enemy standard infantry unit) Please this definitely has to be addressed as well.

The purpose of these changes is to prevent Allies players from rage quitting in less than 2 minutes into the game

Surviving with 2 units? That is only possible against a very bad player or AI. Most people will just circumvent that ''strongpoint'' and cap the rest of the map and with 2 units you cannot contest that. Therefore placing it as fast as possible isn't that smart.

Also it synergises mostly with vehicles which aren't that plentifull in the beggining of the match. But you know what is? Infantry. And Soviets get a forward HQ on 1CP (which isn't much at all and isn't 2 or 3 as you stated) which heals infantry. So if we are speaking about early game exploitation then we should also speak about Urban defense tactics commander and I don't see people crying out against that commander that much ...

@Mr_Ruin There are small maps where you will be able to secure an entire zone by rushing that tactic, the valuable thing about doing so is being able to replenish your troops during combat. Then combining it with bunkers.
Anyway, I stated what seems to be a bug because it requires no command points to deploy that building.

@Patrol_Omega Yep, it is definitely a BUG. It is supposed to be available from 1 CP but, it's currently available at 0 CP.

Mr_Ruin is right. The Soviet's Forward HQ is available at 1 CP, it reinforces and heals infantry plus, it has some combat buffs. The Forward Supply Station isn't nearly as good during the early game; in fact, a Wehrmacht player can get the same effect from a command bunker at a lower cost and without even waiting for 1 CP. Given that bunkers can be repaired and buildings can't, it's actually silly to get an FSS until you have vehicles (which will be later than 1 CP).

Aside from the bug, I don't really see a problem with this item (other than its lack of utility on maps with few buildings).

@PanzerFutz said:@Patrol_Omega Yep, it is definitely a BUG. It is supposed to be available from 1 CP but, it's currently available at 0 CP.

Mr_Ruin is right. The Soviet's Forward HQ is available at 1 CP, it reinforces and heals infantry plus, it has some combat buffs. The Forward Supply Station isn't nearly as good during the early game; in fact, a Wehrmacht player can get the same effect from a command bunker at a lower cost and without even waiting for 1 CP. Given that bunkers can be repaired and buildings can't, it's actually silly to get an FSS until you have vehicles (which will be later than 1 CP).

Aside from the bug, I don't really see a problem with this item (other than its lack of utility on maps with few buildings).

You've just said it by yourself, why does ostheer need that FSS if it can build reinforcment bunkers (with medics too) at 0 cp without spending fuel?

It wasn't supposed to be "I will repair all your tanks in 4v4 with my FSS and upgraded engis" commander. The reason why so many people voted for him, was radio intercept, and I'm sure that a lot of people are upset now because good recon ability got swapped for the ability with the totally different role.

If I want to help my team in repairs in 4v4, I would just take defensive doctrine, build engineer bunkers and place mg bunkers with paks to defend it

@WilhelmIX Just because I said I don't see a problem with this item, it doesn't mean I like it. However, I do understand why Radio Intercept was removed. I don't think it's good to have a broken item taking up a slot. The question is: what should replace it? Recon Overflight is in 6 other doctrines so, maybe Stuka Recon Pass could be used for a change.

Personally, I'd like to see a Forward Receiver Tower in its place - a structure that can be built (and destroyed) which acts in the same manner the Soviet Spy Network does (except that it can be countered by destruction). Some modded maps have them, such as the Hell's Highway map. It shouldn't be too hard to integrate an already-existing item into the game but, it's probably too much work at this late stage.

Honestly I think this commander needs some sort of munition dump, perhaps the old unused strategic bombing run from urban assault or something. Originally the Forward Supply station in the urban assault commander gave all your infantry an ability that let them manually retreat to the nearest building but you could still decide to retreat to base, but I didn't see that in game when testing.

Since the Ostwind is receiving great buffs to deal against infantry and AA, can this unit get its chances of bouncing AT bullets values reduced? It can bounce a lot of AT-gun damage ): Making it very hard for AT guns and any other 75mm tank unit out there hard to deal against it already, and now AT infantry will be mostly useless or insignificant against it.

Slightly reducing the front armor from this unit should still allow AT infantry to scratch the Ostwind being a unit that can be rushed early on. So the Ostwind doesn't turn out to be a must recruit triumph card for everyone. (Wer players now have no need to get a T1 or T2 HQ, furthermore information about this in the last paragraph)

Furthermore, if this unit is going to excel against infantry, and the buffed StuG III G is going to be better now as well, shouldn't the Ostwind penetration values be severely lowered? Makes total sense to keep the balance in order.

Panzergrenadiers

This is a really fearsome unit that already has Intel Bulletins available to boost its performance.
To be honest I might just swap to this faction with the recent buffs hahah sad but true. Rifle infantry stands no chance against them (all Allied main infantry) not even mgs as one Panzergrenadier squad can solo it.

On the positive side, Grenadiers will no longer require to be tone down, since this unit will replace them now.

Now that they will come to the battlefield so much sooner, would it be acceptable to increase its pop cap by one?

Observation Bunker

Fearsome commander with this new addition, but the creativity involved is something to be recognized and admired.

Bunker slight nerf: Allowing units garrisoned inside to only fire forward and not in all 360° directions.
I don't think it can be edited or accomplished but I had to propose it.

Final opinion

Games become more fun if you get a variety of weapons, armies, and strategies available, and not just everyone going for the same Must Pick to Win tactic (if you fail executing it then what else is left?). Something that happens in COH2 tournaments, especially on Soviet players going for the same Commander on every single 1v1 game.

Cool idea about the bunker but i think it should have a bit more sight. Maybe 50 or 60, since that's the point of making it. Another thing could be useful is to allow it to reinforce, but this adds muni cost. It would be 350/400mp with 60/90 muni. Another option to consider is an upgrade to medics or engineers(from okw UI), but can only pick one. The bunker can serve as an outpost in the front lines. If cut off, you cannot reinforce.

Now the problem with Wehrmacht is handling the good TDs the allies have since they lack a long range TD in their standard roster. You might say the pak40 is enough, but it isn't vs good players, since they use combined arms and not to mention all the buffs the Allies have to kill inf. The pak40 is weak vs explosives and infantry which the allies do not lack now. It's a cumbersome unit that only excels in open maps and if the enemy isn't using a variation of units. Sure the reduction in size might help the Stug a little but it won't do much since allied TD's have exceptional accuracy and it has low armor(140, compared with the panzer IV which is 180) so the unit cannot chase or attack since it would be easy penetrated. The only long range vehicle units for Wehrmacht are the Stug and the panther, so when an open map comes to play your obligated to pick the elephant in most matches which is a turn off. You have a large selection of commanders but you MUST pick the elephant because of the Allied TDs or be prepared to struggle in the late game as the enemy sends wave of veteran units and explosives again'st you. Okw at least handles a bit better in this situations since they get the jagdpanzer which is an excellent tank hunter to keep at bay the TDs.

Now you might say the 10 range difference ain't that much, but it IS. The panther had its armor reduced, so it cannot chase the TDs anymore without being shot like crazy. Now the jackson can survive more shots which is a pain to handle more than two. Sure panther is still decent in maps where there is a lot cover or if you can field a few(but its a hassle, now each is 18 pop). But like i said, in an open map you are facing soviet or usf it's a guaranteed choice to pick the elephant which in my opinion it should not. Commander picking must be by style or one that you love.

The way i see it the stugand Wehrmachts dilemmacan be lessen by either two choices:

Option 1:The stug pop is increased between 10 or 12. The far accuracy and penetration is reduced. Damage is also reduced to 100. Price is also increased 310mp, 105 fuel. Target size remains the same and rotation. Range is increased to 60. At vet 3 gains a bonus of damage of 60+. Rate of fire veterancy is reduced. Or leave the damage at 100 and the rate of fire remains the same.

Option 2: The stug is the same as vanilla except far accuracy and penetration is reduced, not to mention price increased(Maybe same as above). The only difference would be the range bonus is now an ability. Which is called Steady aim. This is gain by an upgrade that requires the last tier building. Can cost between 70/90 muni. The ability works like the spoting scope. While the unit is idle it gains a range increase by 10 and accuracy. If moving it will not take effect.

In the old days the Stug was decent when you spam the unit and it had an absurd rate of fire. But now when you do that it's useless. It cannot chase, it's clunky, low armor and average rate of fire. And do not forget the allied got buffed. IS-2 armor increased, SU-85 is super accurate and the jackson has more health(which makes a big difference). And so the stug became quite useless. Hell the SU-76 is more useful. It has 60 range and bombardment ability which is nice. Stug is a supporting unit, in my opinion it's not meant for chasing or breaking through. The idea is to accompany other units, to sit back and provide supporting fire. For me the target size should remain the same so it can lose to AT guns but find a means to buff it so it can be a decent TD which Wehrmacht desperately lack. Sure the pak is great but it's has too many weakness and trying to maintain one until late game is a real hassle.

TheOstwind buff is a welcome since the unit now has barely any use, gotta wait and see how it performs. As for the Panzergrenadiers i'm a little worried. They sit in a weird spot right now. They're good but not good. I like the idea you guys are proposing but the unit can be deadly if used well. Let's try the current changes, but the following changes can be also be done. Reduced starting received accuracy, it will instead be added with veterancy and at vet 3 reinforce cost is reduced(in late games when mp is short this units are a pain to reinforce).

That's all for now and can't wait to play the new commanders when the update goes live.

Tried the new patch.
Panzergranadiers -
1. You still need Grenadiers and PAK to fill in the gap. It is hard to survive early allies push with just Pioneers and MG42 untill the first PG Panzerschreck unlock. So PG will be more used in a composition, while not a spammable unit in 1vs1. I think this is a decent change.
2. Gewehr upgrade for 25 munitions is way too cheap. Please reconsider it like 40~50 munitions or so.
Pioneers -
1. Their 'Destroy cover' ability descriptions still say 'Royal Engineers'.

I feel like if they want early pgrens they should add the theater of war panzerbuche rifles you got as an alternative cheap AT sidegrade to x2 shreks and lock shreks behind later tech perhaps phase phase 2/3
The Panzergren's g43 is a downgrade in close-mid range which is why you changed it to 25 but I think that be a bit cheap.

@Thundrag said:
I feel like if they want early pgrens they should add the theater of war panzerbuche rifles you got as an alternative cheap AT sidegrade to x2 shreks and lock shreks behind later tech perhaps phase phase 2/3
The Panzergren's g43 is a downgrade in close-mid range which is why you changed it to 25 but I think that be a bit cheap.

with the G43 you are essentially paying munitions for a downgrade. for far DPS you always had grenadiers, the g43 was never worthwile on panzergrenadiers.

@Thundrag said:
I feel like if they want early pgrens they should add the theater of war panzerbuche rifles you got as an alternative cheap AT sidegrade to x2 shreks and lock shreks behind later tech perhaps phase phase 2/3
The Panzergren's g43 is a downgrade in close-mid range which is why you changed it to 25 but I think that be a bit cheap.

PTRS comes on six man squads which are good in all ranges and costs 60mun. You get 3 of them on that unit. Shrecks cost 100 munition which is with Ost harder to get and you get it on a four man squad which is easier to be killed.

Therefore Panzerbuche could get only 2 pieces on a costlier close range unit and that would be such a downgrade that what would be the cost for that ''upgrade''? 30mun? Which would end up with Ost either never using it or spamming it. And the goal of this update is to broaden possibilities, not decrease them.

PTRS comes on six man squads which are good in all ranges and costs 60mun. You get 3 of them on that unit. Shrecks cost 100 munition which is with Ost harder to get and you get it on a four man squad which is easier to be killed.

Therefore Panzerbuche could get only 2 pieces on a costlier close range unit and that would be such a downgrade that what would be the cost for that ''upgrade''? 30mun? Which would end up with Ost either never using it or spamming it. And the goal of this update is to broaden possibilities, not decrease them.

I was thinking more along the lines of a transition upgrade where its 50muni and then you upgrade to shreks for 50 replacing the x2 panzerbuches

Not a big fan of the Observation bunker, seems rather useless for the price, could rather be a cheaper but weaker radio station or given some other utility upgrades. as it stands it is more of a filler ability to not make the commander too good, also the field HQ seemes to be no less fitting that the bunker for 'strategic reserves'

A cheap upgrade requested to unlock Panzergrenadiers should be added to the initial HQ, similar to the British Forces mechanics to unlock certain units. The purpose of it is simply to delay the arrival of those great units into the battlefield, as they now have been moved to the main HQ.

> @Patrol_Omega said:
> A cheap upgrade requested to unlock Panzergrenadiers should be added to the initial HQ, similar to the British Forces mechanics to unlock certain units. The purpose of it is simply to delay the arrival of those great units into the battlefield, as they now have been moved to the main HQ.

They have that in the function of the battle phase system. It's nice that it's starting to see use.

About observation bunker:
Too expensive and perfomance is meh. As well i don't buy why "observation" bunker is concrete and has lower LOS than stock bunker equipped with MG42?
Imo that can be easily fixed: make it cheaper and reduce health at the same time, make it classical wood bunker with 150 mp+45 muni if performance is the same.
But performannce is really bad. This bunker has 2 abilities: showing units on tactical map for free is ok, but range is too little. Range for flaredrop is noncence. There should be very big cost-reducing of that flare drop or it should be like normal flare drop from OKW spec-ops doctrine. What the poin in investing 300 mp and 60 muni when we can invest the same number of munitions to have a recon plane?
And second thing about this slot in ability roaster: how this ability goes into line with others? How i should progress my game or build with that? We have now second assgren doctrine on release, but let's look at first one, the mechanized assault.
Every ability is what the "mechanized assault" is: u have mobile 5-man close range infantry, what is cheaper that pgrens and takes lower popcap, pgrens, pios with flamethrower or lmg42 grens in 250/1 are suuporting assgrens in early game, then stugE is supporting all your troops and tanks with indirect-like fire, call-in, which is not too cool but atleast cheap. Tiger in the end. Player see the ability roaster and understands what he/she is purchasing and how it will be used.
What is here, in "strategic reserves"? Assgrens? Ok. Satchels? Nice, finally. Smoke grenades? Meh, but ok. Better PIV, which allow to skip t3 and jump to t4? Perfect. Tiger ass? Well, dungeon-master on the field.
OBSERVATION BUNKER? What? Where i need it with this roaster? I play agressively, because i have tools for that. I drain manpower, because i am agressive. 300mp for what? For sitting and spectating?
Imo there should be a big buff, price reduce or (best idea) remove it at all. There is no need to invent the bicycle again, if radio-intercept cannot be fixed and placed there, let there be some kind of regular wehrmacht abilities: Stuka smoke bombs, panzer tactitian (actually, quiet weird, that tiger ass has no smokes, so this ability will fit well) or even mortar HT.
Something, what is useful, fits well literally into every doc (really, smoke bombs or panzer tactitian never were a lackluster).

The Observation Bunker was supposed to be a model used to represent a Forward Observation Post. Therefore, switching it for a different building that will not allow infantry to garrison inside might be more aligned with its concept.

After all, 200mp is now a very cheap price to spam flares with an enormous radius of sight as some YouTubers have already stated plus it gives a faction with bunkers another type of it. Something that this faction is not lacking at all.