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There were plenty of people here who didn't know where Firmino fit for a LONG time after he got here.
There are plenty of people who would have called you insane 14 months ago if you would have suggested Lallana would be our best presser and balling winning midfielders at this club.
Virtually everyone on earth thought Klopp was insane going into a season with Milner at LB.
Simon Mignolet was a dead man walking going into this summer.
Up until about a month ago, most people here couldn't figure out why we bought Gini Wijnaldum - 90% of the posts on him had differing variations of "what is the point of Gini" to them.

If you want to go ahead and make grand proclamations about giving up on a very talented and highly rated 23 year old German International because he is having an off season that started and set up very badly for him from the start, be my guest. But you will only have yourself to blame when you eventually look like a complete dolt because you decided you wanted to just give up on a player like that working under Klopp. But don't worry....you won't be alone feeling right stupid about it all.

Firmino always showed he was capable of amazing things.

Lallana always had the technical ability and work rate but not the finishing touch, just needed moulding for our side.

Agree with Mignolet and Milner, although Milner can do every position.

Gini has been here half a season and been good at times.

The difference is Can has been here nearly 3 years and has had a few good months. Granted he played at CB for a bit of that time.

I want nothing else but to be completely wrong about Can, but I just don't believe he has what it takes in terms of how he plays and how Klopp wants us to play.

The data show that when one of the two is in MF, we do well. When both play, we don't.

This is without a doubt the simple issue with that position.

And the problem with not addressing the Mane departure is you end up taking the lazy solution of putting Lallana wide where he is so much the lesser player he normally is, and then you basically put 2 sort of clones to each other in midfield both doing the same things and not doing the same things.

My endless frustration with not being proactive and brave and ambitious with the transfers is you start moving pieces around to plug a leak here which immediately sparks a leak elsewhere and then another, and then another and all of a sudden you just created a whole lot more questions because you didn't make the obvious solution to the first problem you had.

You literarily cannot have a midfield of Hendo, Can and Gini unless you are going out to try to win a game 1-0 against a top 4/5 team. Otherwise, its just pointless.

And the problem with not addressing the Mane departure is you end up taking the lazy solution of putting Lallana wide where he is so much the lesser player he normally is, and then you basically put 2 sort of clones to each other in midfield both doing the same things and not doing the same things.

My endless frustration with not being proactive and brave and ambitious with the transfers is you start moving pieces around to plug a leak here which immediately sparks a leak elsewhere and then another, and then another and all of a sudden you just created a whole lot more questions because you didn't make the obvious solution to the first problem you had.

You literarily cannot have a midfield of Hendo, Can and Gini unless you are going out to try to win a game 1-0 against a top 4/5 team. Otherwise, its just pointless.

Lallana always had the technical ability and work rate but not the finishing touch, just needed moulding for our side.

Agree with Mignolet and Milner, although Milner can do every position.

Gini has been here half a season and been good at times.

The difference is Can has been here nearly 3 years and has had a few good months. Granted he played at CB for a bit of that time.

I want nothing else but to be completely wrong about Can, but I just don't believe he has what it takes in terms of how he plays and how Klopp wants us to play.

My point was...we have debated Firmino's best position for how long since he arrived here? How many times have you had people question if he can be relied upon to be your main striker, or do you only use him there for certain tough games, or do you play him in the 10, etc etc?

My point was...when Klopp arrived here, Lallana was weak, timid, could get bounced off a ball by mine and your grandma and Klopp turns him into this super workman machine that wins the ball better than just about any midfielder in the league.

My point on Milner isn't that he couldn't play in midfield or wide right/left, my point was no one here thought you could hand him the LB position for a whole season.

I happen to agree that Can's best position is as a 6. The only time he has played in that position was last season when even you admit he was very good for us once he got into and settled into that position. My point is, am sure as hell not going to judge him off the season he played for Rodgers in that ridiculous 3 at the back formation, and am not going to give up on him at age 23 this season coming off an injury start and not being played in his best position. My point is, we have seen plenty of players under Klopp go from what looks like a hopeless case to wait a minute, we might have a really good player here on our hands. That's what am trying to say about Can.

Everything is just lethargic with him at present. Simple passes he's making look difficult and coupled with losing the ball in situations you wouldn't expect.

He's just become a bad player basically.

Shadow of the player he was and I wouldn't be against moving him on if a club happen make advances.

To be fair he played well against the scum but the main issue was Lallana playing up front and us playing 3 midfielders at home which was not required against Swansea as we were always gonna have more of the possession.

Frustrates me to no end. I appreciate trying to be conservative with the owners money or trying to give the players you already have a chance to be the solution to your problems. But at some point, confidence or over-confidence in one-self can peter over the line too much and start to hurt you.

Rafa was a brilliant tactical mind but while he never had the ability to produce the type of football Klopp can, I always loved his sense of urgency to addressing glaring needs. He wasn't going to do things the hard way just to prove to you that he is so brilliant that he can. He would rather go out, get the player, THEN show you how good he is a tactical mind.

I just don't want Klopp to in any way start to give people reason to make comparisons to Wenger in that particular department of wanting to do it the hard way.

Yeah it's a strange one... He has zero confidence and he does look like he doesn't know exactly what he is supposed to be doing... I blame Klopp for that because obviously you have a player that has talent but is obviously not being coached up well enough... They need to find a role for Can and have him stick with that... I feel he might be being told to do too much

Out of those 70 games, did you miss last season when he was playing in the holding position and was easily one of our more influential better players the last half of last season? You saw how we missed him when he went down injured and then the effect he had when he came back. This is the first time in his career you could fairly attribute a bad season to him and it's not like it isn't understandable. Worst thing for him was missing out the build up and then start to the season...he's never quite gotten on track consistently. But then again, he's only 23 and already you hear people like the guys on the Anfield Wrap openly talking this week about how Can is 23 and we can already tell he isn't going to have a great career.

Mind you, this is the same crew who when Henderson was 23 were coming up with 7000 creative excuses for why Hendo just needed time, was still growing, was still learning various positions, was still trying to get out of under Stevie's shadow. Hendo is 26, and up until Can got injured earlier this season, no one here could tell you what Hendo's best position was - plus he was a Godawful footballer. Anyone who remembers the Burnley game and the time in and around those games will remember what a complete mess of a player Henderson was. But yet the same people who jump on Can's back now saying he doesn't have a position - what were you saying about Hendo then? You could get whiplash trying to keep up with the double talk on some of these players.

I think you are overstating how 'good' he was last season, Snippes .. of all the games he has played for us, I can count on one hand the games where I have thought "This lad has something about him, what a great game". Like Liverdinner said, we need specialists and Can, sadly, is anything but. I am not solely blaming Can for todays miserable midfield showing though - Henderson and Wijnaldum are just too similar in what they bring to CM and - again sadly -neither of them bring anything special. Those 3 in combination is an absolute nightmare that offer us very little .. not in terms of providing protection to our back four, nor enough in providing impetus to our attacking players.

Our CM just has not progressed from last season at all .. and that is concerning.

I think you are overstating how 'good' he was last season, Snippes .. of all the games he has played for us, I can count on one hand the games where I have thought "This lad has something about him, what a great game". Like Liverdinner said, we need specialists and Can, sadly, is anything but. I am not solely blaming Can for todays miserable midfield showing though - Henderson and Wijnaldum are just too similar in what they bring to CM and - again sadly -neither of them bring anything special. Those 3 in combination is an absolute nightmare that offer us very little .. not in terms of providing protection to our back four, nor enough in providing impetus to our attacking players.

Our CM just has not progressed from last season at all .. and that is concerning.

Why do we even play with 3 central midfielders? What kind of self inflicted nightmare is that?

I think you are overstating how 'good' he was last season, Snippes .. of all the games he has played for us, I can count on one hand the games where I have thought "This lad has something about him, what a great game". Like Liverdinner said, we need specialists and Can, sadly, is anything but. I am not solely blaming Can for todays miserable midfield showing though - Henderson and Wijnaldum are just too similar in what they bring to CM and - again sadly -neither of them bring anything special. Those 3 in combination is an absolute nightmare that offer us very little .. not in terms of providing protection to our back four, nor enough in providing impetus to our attacking players.

Our CM just has not progressed from last season at all .. and that is concerning.

So let me ask you this Moany One.... What is there to do? I feel like we are just stuck with the mediocrity and just have to hope for the best because the club certainly is not going to buy... We are in trouble

That's what I said in the post match thread and I hadn't even seen the game at that point.

Why the **** would we? What is the point? What is the third one doing?

All 3 are negative players who can barely defend and most certainly can't attack. Two of them (Henderson and Wijnaldum) mostly don't want the ball and the one who wants it all the time (Can) doesn't have the qualities to have it.

So what exactly is the point? Surely if you have the option of fielding 2 mediocre players instead of 3 you'd choose the former?

There were plenty of people here who didn't know where Firmino fit for a LONG time after he got here.
There are plenty of people who would have called you insane 14 months ago if you would have suggested Lallana would be our best presser and balling winning midfielders at this club.
Virtually everyone on earth thought Klopp was insane going into a season with Milner at LB.
Simon Mignolet was a dead man walking going into this summer.
Up until about a month ago, most people here couldn't figure out why we bought Gini Wijnaldum - 90% of the posts on him had differing variations of "what is the point of Gini" to them.

If you want to go ahead and make grand proclamations about giving up on a very talented and highly rated 23 year old German International because he is having an off season that started and set up very badly for him from the start, be my guest. But you will only have yourself to blame when you eventually look like a complete dolt because you decided you wanted to just give up on a player like that working under Klopp. But don't worry....you won't be alone feeling right stupid about it all.

That was down to BR not using him properly .. not to mention Klopp when he uses Firmino out wide. When it comes to Can, if DM is his strongest and most natural position (and I am far from convinced that is the case) then why isn't Klopp playing him there? Why play him in an arbitrary midfield position that he is not suited to, and where he is continually found out? Makes no sense.

All 3 are negative players who can barely defend and most certainly can't attack. Two of them (Henderson and Wijnaldum) mostly don't want the ball and the one who wants it all the time (Can) doesn't have the qualities to have it.

So what exactly is the point? Surely if you have the option of fielding 2 mediocre players instead of 3 you'd choose the former?

Not a clue.

Watching them all now occupy similar pointless spaces and move the ball sideways and cautiously.

Surely Origi or Sturridge up front instead of an additional midfielder would be more useful? Heck, even Ojo on the win would be more useful. We might actually see someone run past his marker since 2009 at Liverpool.

Why do we even play with 3 central midfielders? What kind of self inflicted nightmare is that?

I can understand us playing with 3 midfielder in certain games (Swansea at home wouldn't be one of them though) IF each of them offers us something different, and they understand how to play in tandem to highlight each others strengths. Playing 3 central midfielders who all do the same thing - especially at home against a team like Swansea - makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. When I saw the line-up before the game, I said to my wife "WTF is Klopp doing putting those 3 together in there?" .. Not knowing anything about football, she just grunted and carried on reading her book.

That was down to BR not using him properly .. not to mention Klopp when he uses Firmino out wide. When it comes to Can, if DM is his strongest and most natural position (and I am far from convinced that is the case) then why isn't Klopp playing him there? Why play him in an arbitrary midfield position that he is not suited to, and where he is continually found out? Makes no sense.

It's Can's favoured position, but Klopp clearly doesn't fancy him in that role.

I can understand us playing with 3 midfielder in certain games (Swansea at home wouldn't be one of them though) IF each of them offers us something different, and they understand how to play in tandem to highlight each others strengths. Playing 3 central midfielders who all do the same thing - especially at home against a team like Swansea - makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. When I saw the line-up before the game, I said to my wife "WTF is Klopp doing putting those 3 together in there?" .. Not knowing anything about football, she just grunted and carried on reading her book.

It's still an upgrade on Ejaria and Stewart. My God, that is the most painful thing I've seen in a while.