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Okay, so from now, i must use kernel switches even if i want to adjust the audio settings in the system?

it sounds like this is temperary to avoid a bug that causes screen blanking (on page 2). I personally don't think having to add a kernel switch is a huge deal. and it's only to enable/disable radeon/hdmi.

Originally Posted by Geri

Quality of linux is sinking lower and lower with each new version. One step forward, 300 back.

funny, i'd personally have to say the opposite. in the last 3 years, things have improved drastically, in many ways ~ regarding the linux kernel specifically. That isn't to say, there isn't the odd issue/bug that crops up here and there. But even my older hardware is working better under newer releases ~ i run linux-rt (3.0-rt11), linux-ck (BFS/ck/BFQ) and a vanilla kernel 3.0 on various computers (old and new). in all cases 3.0 is better than previous releases of the various flavors of the linux kernel that i am using.

Originally Posted by Geri

Imho the kernel, the driver architectures, base API's, and the whole system should fully redesigned.

Cool. When are you going to start coding this 'new' operating system that you plan to call Gnu/linux?

it sounds like this is temperary to avoid a bug that causes screen blanking (on page 2). I personally don't think having to add a kernel switch is a huge deal. and it's only to enable/disable radeon/hdmi.

The best way to avoid screen blanking is to create stable drivers and base architecture on logical structures, and not to create boot switches to an operating system. .P

Originally Posted by ninez

funny, i'd personally have to say the opposite. in the last 3 years, things have improved drastically, in many ways ~ regarding the linux kernel specifically. That isn't to say, there isn't the odd issue/bug that crops up here and there. But even my older hardware is working better under newer releases ~ i run linux-rt (3.0-rt11), linux-ck (BFS/ck/BFQ) and a vanilla kernel 3.0 on various computers (old and new). in all cases 3.0 is better than previous releases of the various flavors of the linux kernel that i am using.

I see the opposite. I have several computers here, and linux, on all, getting worst. For example, linuxes after 2008 does not see my HDD properly (seagate *dontrememberthename*, 2x1666 cpu, amd chipset). Some versions even kernel panics from a hdd. Great. For example, my secondary computer, a notebook with p4 on 2 ghz - an Compaq evon1000v 's picture falls apart when linux boots, and the official fix is to write some config file over with some lines... Yes, this is how an operating system should work on a popular computer! Oh, this beautifull operating system still need config files to mount up the hdd's? My third computer is an old machine, with via chipset, around 300 mhz. The linux installers just starts to load, then the leds flashing and computer turns off. I tryed with 6-7 different distro, and all was did the same. I would not call this as ,,improvement''. :3

Originally Posted by ninez

Cool. When are you going to start coding this 'new' operating system that you plan to call Gnu/linux?

Right after some leader linux developers connects to me, and i recive enough money to create a brand new API design, and ideas, how to wrap the current design over the old, to ensure the compatibility.

Look at the android (thats also linux based) and its mutch better/cohesive/logical.

I am more and more dissapointed in linux. I like the linux kernel, and the distributions, but lets face it: linux is NOT evolving since 2001.

Users want simplyer, better, logical operating system, not an 1970 unix clone kernel, hacked together with scriptkiddies to make it to working form. Developers want stable apis and libraris, not this mess wich much more like an incohesive cobweb. From textfiles and mythical codelines of cthulhu.

The best way to avoid screen blanking is to create stable drivers and base architecture on logical structures, and not to create boot switches to an operating system. .P

Use Windows then.... Unix, Linux, MacOSX all allow you to use switches... and sometimes they can be very useful.

Agreed, stable drivers is always a good thing. But in the circumstance of a bug being present, it's really nice to be able to stop it from affecting you, with a boot flag, rather than complaining about it ... and rather than having to wait for a fix to come through on an update. It may be a compromise in the short term, but atleast it is there for people who may want or need it.

Originally Posted by Geri

I see the opposite. I have several computers here, and linux, on all, getting worst. For example, linuxes after 2008 does not see my HDD properly (seagate *dontrememberthename*, 2x1666 cpu, amd chipset). Some versions even kernel panics from a hdd. Great. For example, my secondary computer, a notebook with p4 on 2 ghz - an Compaq evon1000v 's picture falls apart when linux boots, and the official fix is to write some config file over with some lines... Yes, this is how an operating system should work on a popular computer! Oh, this beautifull operating system still need config files to mount up the hdd's?

edit /etc/fstab and stop whining! it takes 10secs (literally!). it's reality that with the majority or *nix systems, you might be required to configure something, yourself... and depending on the distro - you might be required to do more. About the HDD - that sucks, have you reported the bug upstream and provided a detailed bug report? you also say (later) that if someone was willing to pay you, that you could indeed re-design Linux - so what about debugging your problem and submitting your patch upstream? if you are capable of redesigning the whole OS - *you should be fully capable of fixing a problem with one driver*. - by what you say further down, this shouldn't even break a sweat, for a programmer as highly skilled as yourself!

Originally Posted by Geri

My third computer is an old machine, with via chipset, around 300 mhz. The linux installers just starts to load, then the leds flashing and computer turns off. I tryed with 6-7 different distro, and all was did the same. I would not call this as ,,improvement''. :3

...and what other steps have you taken, other than trying different ISOs? logging info? did you figure out the 'actual' source of the problem, or just try something else, and when that failed, then gave up? Ironically, this sounds like a circumstance where a boot flag, might have actually allowed the installer to work. (but obviously with out seeing logs it's somewhat hard to say).

Originally Posted by Geri

Right after some leader linux developers connects to me, and i recive enough money to create a brand new API design, and ideas, how to wrap the current design over the old, to ensure the compatibility.

how much code have you already contributed to the Linux stack?? because, right now it sort of sounds as if you are all talk, and just pissed off. I highly doubt anyone is going to pay you to rewrite Linux. How many OSes/kernels have you written, or contributed significant code to? what are your credentials? How often does Linus, Redhat, Novell, etc contact you directly for your great expertise, insights and design ideas? if not them, who comes to you for your expertise? can you point us to some of the amazing code / designs / applications who have written?

Originally Posted by Geri

Look at the android (thats also linux based) and its mutch better/cohesive/logical.

I don't know if i can really agree with that. Android is good - but for one, it only runs on a very small selection of hardware, and there is much less code to maintain (Android was what 1gig installed, the last time i updated my friend's ASUS tablet). two, i know lots of people who have ran into issues here and there with Android. three, Android is for smart phones and tablets - comparing it to a Desktop OS is a bit like comparing apples and oranges.

I am more and more dissapointed in linux. I like the linux kernel, and the distributions, but lets face it: linux is NOT evolving since 2001.

Users want simplyer, better, logical operating system, not an 1970 unix clone kernel, hacked together with scriptkiddies to make it to working form. Developers want stable apis and libraris, not this mess wich much more like an incohesive cobweb. From textfiles and mythical codelines of cthulhu.

Not evolving since 2001? lol. that's the funniest thing i've heard all day. Maybe you should actually go and refresh yourself on what linux was like back in 2001, have a look at many FOSS projects back in '01. Linux has matured quite a bit, there were many limitations back then, that i am not encumbered by now, way less support back in the day, nor were the applications nearly as good, etc, etc. i think you are being very overly dramatic

It sounds like *nix systems aren't for you, and you should probably just move on, instead if it isn't working for you - so why complain? - there is always Windows and Mac for people who don't like the commandline, don't want to have to edit config files, who want everything done for them, want 'simple' and who want that style of OS. I am a 'user', and i don't mind configuring my OS, in fact, i like to have the granular control over it. ...and there are distributions of linux that are quite popular that hold to the idea that the user is going to be expected to be directly invloved in setting up and maintaining the system. I think your idea of 'user' does not include many users within Gnu/Linux community.

but i do agree - obviously, developers want stable APIs and Libraries, this is an area that needs to be worked on, and that can be flaky. However, as far as libraries are concerned, developers can easily package in their own libs - there are applications that do this, in situations where they want a specific version and to not have breakage do to version changes. it's not a huge deal.

Thank you for your good answers, i found really entartaining to argue about this.

Originally Posted by ninez

Use Windows then....

Yeah, that is what i using. I also have Suse, but i will switch to another distro maybee.

Originally Posted by ninez

Agreed, stable drivers is always a good thing. But in the circumstance of a bug being present, it's really nice to be able to stop it from affecting you, with a boot flag

Yes, its good to avoid it, but communicating with drivers through boot flags with kernel mode drivers in an operating system, is the most laughable design flaw i ever heard. First, the communication itself. How about pressing a button on boot, and ban the driver on a simple graphics interface? However, this does not solve the main problem: passing parameters to DRIVERS to allow the normal operating of an operating system. Did the radeon developers even heard from control panels? They should really create one, and if somebody have an issue disables it on a nice graphics panel... This is a graphics driver after all...

Boot switches... jesus...

Originally Posted by ninez

edit /etc/fstab and stop whining! it takes 10secs (literally!). it's reality that with the majority or *nix systems, you might be required to configure something, yourself... and depending on the distro - you might be required to do more.

Users does not want to configure. Or at least, not such basic things. They want to use they computers: browse the internet, use facebook, put they usb hdd in to share they pictures with friends... they not want to understand operating systems. This is one of the biggest fail in the linux conception. To satisfy the demands of the users in 2011, config textfiles is not a suitable thing.

Originally Posted by ninez

About the HDD - that sucks, have you reported the bug upstream and provided a detailed bug report? you also say (later) that if someone was willing to pay you, that you could indeed re-design Linux - so what about debugging your problem and submitting your patch upstream? if you are capable of redesigning the whole OS - *you should be fully capable of fixing a problem with one driver*. - by what you say further down, this shouldn't even break a sweat, for a programmer as highly skilled as yourself!

I opened the source codes to fix the bug... after i figured out, what causing the problem, my hands slowly started to move into the direction of the keyboard... and i just started laughing. Becouse the code was so mutch flawed, i have been never seen so bad source code in my entry life. And as a ,,bad code'' i not mean that it used some wrong structuration, or was deceived, or just bad paradigms.. no.. the whole code - so the whole disc handling was based on multiple designing flaws. After i have realised, what i see, i have seen a mutch more funny thing: there was 2-3000 hdd handcoded into some parts of the driver to avoid this design flaw. Without this, linux kernel would just simply hang with this devices. Oh, basically the whole hdd handling is broken, in every part, including every simple C file. Not that is the strange that my hdd dont work. The strange is, that linux HOW is able to boot even?!
Oh and i dont fixed the code. I just closed the code, and removed linux from the system. Becouse i dont touch such things. You know, like a dieing dog, you have no chanche to save it, its blood trickling out, pus flowing out from the lower parts, its mouth foams... giving out strange noises...
you dont touch things like that either :P
only if somebody pay for you for it becouse you are a flayer...
but i am not a flayer, so i will not touch this doggie, called linux
i just look at it and i say: oh my god, you poor thing, what happended to you... wait, i go for my gun *partition delete, installer disc throw to garbage*

Originally Posted by ninez

how much code have you already contributed to the Linux stack?? because, right now it sort of sounds as if you are all talk, and just pissed off.

I am not a prophet, i dont want to save linux from the apocalypse. I just saying my oppinions. And they are true. BTW i never sent any code to linux kernel, and i will NEVER send any. I have cooperated with some developers back then for serious linux base apps, i even helped in some source codes for them (for example in Wine). But i did not wrote my name there. You know, there is some documents you dont sign
You know, why i would only touch linux if i would recive money for it? To compensate for my psychological injuries i would recive by watching the source code, as a solatium. But this will never happend, as you can guess :P

Originally Posted by ninez

Android is for smart phones and tablets - comparing it to a Desktop OS is a bit like comparing apples and oranges.

Yeah, they cannot be compared in some ways, but if you want to make a call, you dont need to write text configfiles at last...

Originally Posted by ninez

Not evolving since 2001? lol. that's the funniest thing i've heard all day. Maybe you should actually go and refresh yourself on what linux was like back in 2001, have a look at many FOSS projects back in '01. Linux has matured quite a bit, there were many limitations back then, that i am not encumbered by now, way less support back in the day, nor were the applications nearly as good, etc, etc. i think you are being very overly dramatic

Depends on, what we call, ,,evolve''.
I would not call this evolve. Windows 3.1 -> win9x is an evolve. Win 9x to Windows XP is an evolve.
Linux does not evolving. They painting new and better icons, they fixing some bugs, they adding new drivers... and thats all. They just rolling the bad, old, broken structures before them, like a scarab... No really novelty. Instead, the gworth of the incohesive source code resulting more and more problems in the distributions, for example, impenetrable and unnecessary dependency networks, based on outdated and designflawed old packages.

Originally Posted by ninez

It sounds like *nix systems aren't for you, and you should probably just move on, instead if it isn't working for you - so why complain? - there is always Windows and Mac for people who don't like the commandline, don't want to have to edit config files, who want everything done for them, want 'simple' and who want that style of OS.

Desktop linux distributions, such as ubuntu and suse, also meant to satisty they needs. To clickclick, automatism, happyness. However, they also full of this problems. This is a bad objection i think.

Originally Posted by ninez

I am a 'user', and i don't mind configuring my OS, in fact, i like to have the granular control over it. ...and there are distributions of linux that are quite popular that hold to the idea that the user is going to be expected to be directly invloved in setting up and maintaining the system. I think your idea of 'user' does not include many users within Gnu/Linux community.

Yes, becouse of this reasons, linux community canot grown. For now, it would be able to gain above 60% market share, if it would be usable. But its not rellay usable for the masses. See, i am a coder, and i also suck with it: what an average user would say? Who does not even know, what is a partition. Who want just to facebook... and hear musics... ,,oh sorry but you need to type texts to config files, and oh, if you got no sound, try to write this and this text when you boot, maybee it helps''... no, (s)he will uninstall it, and will probably drop the installation cd into the garbage - where it should be placed aniway.

Originally Posted by ninez

but i do agree - obviously, developers want stable APIs and Libraries, this is an area that needs to be worked on, and that can be flaky. However, as far as libraries are concerned, developers can easily package in their own libs - there are applications that do this, in situations where they want a specific version and to not have breakage do to version changes. it's not a huge deal.

At least, if you experiment what libraries should you use, you can do it. However, there is not even usable and correct documentation, how to do it - you should experiment it yourself, wich is very huge time, a developer maybee isnt interested to do like that to port his application to linux becouse of this.

Thank you for your good answers, i found really entartaining to argue about this.

Yeah, that is what i using. I also have Suse, but i will switch to another distro maybee.

i didn't realize we were arguing, i thought just having a converstion.

Originally Posted by Geri

Yes, its good to avoid it, but communicating with drivers through boot flags with kernel mode drivers in an operating system, is the most laughable design flaw i ever heard. First, the communication itself. How about pressing a button on boot, and ban the driver on a simple graphics interface? However, this does not solve the main problem: passing parameters to DRIVERS to allow the normal operating of an operating system. Did the radeon developers even heard from control panels? They should really create one, and if somebody have an issue disables it on a nice graphics panel... This is a graphics driver after all...

Boot switches... jesus...

they are common in many OSes and are handy to have. I've made good use of them in Unix, Linux and MacOSX. in a few situations, if they had not been there to exploit - i wouldn't have been able to fix a problem i was having... and a 'graphics panel' will not help you, if you cannot boot into the operating system to make the affected change required. that should be pretty obvious though...

Originally Posted by Geri

Users does not want to configure. Or at least, not such basic things. They want to use they computers: browse the internet, use facebook, put they usb hdd in to share they pictures with friends... they not want to understand operating systems. This is one of the biggest fail in the linux conception. To satisfy the demands of the users in 2011, config textfiles is not a suitable thing.

Tell that you Gentoo, Archlinux and many other distributions/communities. I am a user and i want to configure. why? because my system ends up being better than using the insane defaults of distro's like Ubuntu, Fedora and Suse. my system also ends up being exactly what i want, and behaves the way i tell it to.. So, you can tell you beef to Ubuntu/Suse, but don't generalize and assume that all linux users want no config files, etc. because lots do - which is my point.

Originally Posted by Geri

I opened the source codes to fix the bug... after i figured out, what causing the problem, my hands slowly started to move into the direction of the keyboard... and i just started laughing. Becouse the code was so mutch flawed, i have been never seen so bad source code in my entry life. And as a ,,bad code'' i not mean that it used some wrong structuration, or was deceived, or just bad paradigms.. no.. the whole code - so the whole disc handling was based on multiple designing flaws. After i have realised, what i see, i have seen a mutch more funny thing: there was 2-3000 hdd handcoded into some parts of the driver to avoid this design flaw. Without this, linux kernel would just simply hang with this devices. Oh, basically the whole hdd handling is broken, in every part, including every simple C file. Not that is the strange that my hdd dont work. The strange is, that linux HOW is able to boot even?!
Oh and i dont fixed the code. I just closed the code, and removed linux from the system. Becouse i dont touch such things.

if you could fix it, and didn't - than you have nothing to complain about. this just sounds like a lame excuse.

Originally Posted by Geri

You know, like a dieing dog, you have no chanche to save it, its blood trickling out, pus flowing out from the lower parts, its mouth foams... giving out strange noises...
you dont touch things like that either :P
only if somebody pay for you for it becouse you are a flayer...
but i am not a flayer, so i will not touch this doggie, called linux
i just look at it and i say: oh my god, you poor thing, what happended to you... wait, i go for my gun *partition delete, installer disc throw to garbage*

again, why complain then? you contribute nothing, (even though you claim you could fix the problems, easily). are you just trolling? it seems like it.

Originally Posted by Geri

I am not a prophet, i dont want to save linux from the apocalypse. I just saying my oppinions. And they are true. BTW i never sent any code to linux kernel, and i will NEVER send any. I have cooperated with some developers back then for serious linux base apps, i even helped in some source codes for them (for example in Wine). But i did not wrote my name there. You know, there is some documents you dont sign
You know, why i would only touch linux if i would recive money for it? To compensate for my psychological injuries i would recive by watching the source code, as a solatium. But this will never happend, as you can guess :P

Well, you certainly do seem to tout yourself as a 'god of coding' (which is above being a prophet) - you're too good to contribute, but not good enough to NOT complain. ~ could you provide links to some of this amazing code you write and/or commits to what you call 'serious linux base apps'. i'm having trouble taking your word for it. I also program a little bit, so it might be nice to have a look, for myself.

Originally Posted by Geri

Yeah, they cannot be compared in some ways, but if you want to make a call, you dont need to write text configfiles at last...

true, to some degree - but you might need to program the phone numbers into your contacts for quick access, which is essentially writing them into what are no doubt text files or something of the like. In fact, by the time you have typed all the various info into your typical contact list found on most devices (ie: phone # , name, address, etc) you have long been finished editng a config file.

Originally Posted by Geri

Depends on, what we call, ,,evolve''.
I would not call this evolve. Windows 3.1 -> win9x is an evolve. Win 9x to Windows XP is an evolve.
Linux does not evolving. They painting new and better icons, they fixing some bugs, they adding new drivers... and thats all. They just rolling the bad, old, broken structures before them, like a scarab... No really novelty. Instead, the gworth of the incohesive source code resulting more and more problems in the distributions, for example, impenetrable and unnecessary dependency networks, based on outdated and designflawed old packages.

that is simply not true. things do change, and there is far more than just bug-fixes. KMS, USB3.0 didn't exist in even early 2.6.xx and that is just 2 very small examples. Did you not just read about 'thunderbolt' coming to Linux - how is that not things moving forward? as far as dependencies and packaging. I've never had real dependency problems. ie: they are always easy to resolve, as for as impenetrable - i think YOU must be doing something wrong.... but i don't use Ubuntu or Suse, really. although i have. Something to remember as well, linux 'rolls' along, we don't have an xp, vista, then win7. i think you are expecting Linux to be Windows, and do everything the way Windows does, which is retarded.

again, Linux and *nix systems in general, aren't windows. if you prefer windows, then use windows. but stop whining like a little girl about it.

Originally Posted by Geri

Desktop linux distributions, such as ubuntu and suse, also meant to satisty they needs. To clickclick, automatism, happyness. However, they also full of this problems. This is a bad objection i think.

Ubuntu and Suse's goals may be to be point and click happiness, but i don't always think that is the case, and i also think that inherently using nearly all *nix systems, you tend to have to do more than just point and click - which was my point in the first place! and it's not an objection - but reality. That is also why i said, if that is not the experience you are looking for, than maybe Linux isn't for you.

Originally Posted by Geri

Yes, becouse of this reasons, linux community canot grown. For now, it would be able to gain above 60% market share, if it would be usable. But its not rellay usable for the masses. See, i am a coder, and i also suck with it: what an average user would say? Who does not even know, what is a partition. Who want just to facebook... and hear musics... ,,oh sorry but you need to type texts to config files, and oh, if you got no sound, try to write this and this text when you boot, maybee it helps''... no, (s)he will uninstall it, and will probably drop the installation cd into the garbage - where it should be placed aniway.

You're a coder, but also suck at it (using linux), and yet you say you could rewrite the whole thing? ya, right...LOL idiot. ;P I don't think Linux is ready for people who can't use a computer very well, to a degree. I think that the aim is user-friendlyness, for sure (for Ubuntu anyway), but Linux isn't just about a desktop OS that is competing with Windows, it's uses for reach beyond that. (everything from HPC, mobile industry, industrial applications, dedicated music hardware, servers, desktops, workstations, the list goes on).

Originally Posted by Geri

At least, if you experiment what libraries should you use, you can do it. However, there is not even usable and correct documentation, how to do it - you should experiment it yourself, wich is very huge time, a developer maybee isnt interested to do like that to port his application to linux becouse of this.

i think that entirely depending on the toolkits / libs you are using. Some stuff is very well documented, while some may not be. but you do have the choice to pick what you want to use. QT for example is very well documented. You really don't sound like a very knowledgeable skilled programmer/developer. more and more this seems to be apparent. Even hte most obvious stuff seems to be escaping you

Well yeah, i made a mistake, i sayd ,,i suck with it'' while actually linux sucks with the computer, even to load on some

I dont really want to answer you every points, i respect it (i also respect the oppinion of a suicide, who jumps out from the window ).

And no, i will not make links - i am not here, to enlarge my e-penis. The reality is that my success does NOT depends on the oppinions of the linux community. Linux community is not in a position to questioning me. My success depends only on the quality of my work, and the number of my costumers.

The success of the linux depends on the end-users. Oh and also on the developers ofc. And at the moment, linux does not have enough from both. Becouse the community, like you, think that adding a boot switch is evolving

I see the, ultimate argument on bugs is: then you should use different operating system. I am sure, this will attract additional millions of new linux users
And see? Thats alreday happend: i use windows in the 98% of my time.