How Fellowship Memphis, Fellowship Associates, The Gospel Coalition, CBMW, Acts 29 and the Duggars Proved that Complementarianism Will Not Stop Abuse

I always thought that pastors and theologians who took the Bible seriously would show tremendous concern for issues surrounding abuse. It is evident to me that the entire Bible seems to stress the love of God towards the people He created. At the same time Jesus spoke out against any who claim to be leaders yet cause pain and suffering through a heavy burden of rules and regulations. In particular Jesus expressed great love for children who were relegated to unimportant positions by the religious leaders. If that was not so, the following would not have been said by Our Lord.

"If anyone causes one of these little ones–those who believe in me–to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Bible Gateway NIV Matt 18:6

People were also bringing babies to Jesus for him to place his hands on them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. 16 But Jesus called the children to him and said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 17 Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.” Luke 18:15-17 Bible Gateway NIV

Unfortunately, I have become increasingly concerned about the response of gospel™ churches to the issues of abuse. Most Christian would think that churches would place a priority on the welfare of children and spouses who need to be protected. Yet time and time again, I am disturbed by so called leaders who seem to stress the roles of gender as the most important issue of our day, even claiming that it will stop abuse in our churches.

Rick Trotter, employed by Fellowship Memphis (John Bryson, Bryan Loritts) was caught filming women in the bathroom at Fellowship Memphis. Allegedly, this was not reported to the police, the evidence was reportedly destroyed, the women were asked not to report this to the police and Trotter was fired and sent to rehab. Prior to this, they reportedly knowingly hired Pete Newman who would go to prison for abusing children at Camp Kanakuk.

Downtown Church (Memphis), Second Presbyterian)

Rick Trotter was hired by the church with the full knowledge he was a voyeur. Their sponsoring church, Second Presbyterian, under the leadership of Sandy Willson refused to get involved. Trotter was caught filming up women's skirts during church and was finally arrested.

The arrest should have happened the first time. No excuses from these dangerously naive pastors. They dropped the ball. Is it because Trotter was only filming women?

Fellowship Associates has another sex abuse situation which appears to have been mishandled.

The couple, identified only as “John and Jane Doe,” claim that on August 14, 2014; they came to Fellowship Bible Church in Brentwood, a Nashville suburb, for the regular service and left their two children in the care of the church’s children’s ministry. The following weekend, their three-year-old son, “Johnny Doe,” told his parents that he didn’t want to go to church. When his parents asked him what happened, Johnny told them a horrifying tale–a teenage boy who was volunteering at the church’s children’s ministry had taken him inside a bathroom and raped him.

The Does did what any parents would do–they stormed to the church to demand answers. However, the Does claim that church officials responded in the worst way possible. According to the complaint, church officials initially tried to say that Johnny had made the whole thing up, then tried to pressure his parents into not pressing charges against the teen. The Does also say that church officials suggested they might be better off attending one of Fellowship’s other two campuses in Franklin or South Nashville.

The church reportedly did not tell members of the abuse for almost one year! Then they tried to get the lawsuit dismissed. This church sounds like they are really, really concerned about victims….Thankfully, the judge refused to dismiss the suit. Yay, judge! If they won't stop doing this because of their faith, maybe they will if they lose money.

According to the lawsuit, the family's 3-year-old son was raped by a male teenage volunteer in a bathroom of Fellowship Bible Church of Williamson County during church on Aug. 24, 2014. The teenager pleaded guilty to aggravated sexual battery.

Family members left the son at the children's ministry while worshipping, but they weren't aware of the sexual assault until the next weekend.

The lawsuit claims the church urged the family to not pursue charges and asked it to attend another church campus.

It further states that the church "sought to hide the truth about the perpetrator pedophile and about the rape of (the 3-year-old) from other families.”

A local family has filed a $37.5 million lawsuit against a Brentwood church after their 3-year-old was sexually assaulted by a church volunteer.

According to a lawsuit filed Monday, the family's 3-year-old son was raped by a male teenage volunteer in a bathroom of Fellowship Bible Church of Williamson County during church on Aug. 24, 2014. The teenager pleaded guilty to aggravated sexual battery.

The family left their son at the Children's Ministry while worshiping, but they weren't aware of the sexual assault until the following weekend.

According to the lawsuit, the church allegedly urged the family to not pursue charges and asked them to attend another church campus.

It further states that the church "sought to hide the truth about the perpetrator pedophile and about the rape of (the 3-year-old) from other families.”

Why does it seem that Fellowship Bible Church in Brentwood, which is a member of Fellowship Associates, is responding to abuse in the same way as Fellowship Memphis? DNA, perhaps?

Here are some of the related groups who have ties to Fellowship Associates and their decidedly manly Authentic Manhood.

There is a loose connection between a number of the so named Fellowship Bible Churches. Fellowship Associates appears to be the linking group. Lots of these churches and the Associates have connections to the usual suspects.

Crawford Lorritts – his church is a member of Fellowship Associates and he is the father of Bryan Loritts
​Sandy Willson – the pastor of Second Presbyterian who refused to get involved in the 2nd hiring of Rick Trotter

Wayne Grudem claims that complementarianism guards against abuse. He maintains that his ideas on authority and submission don’t lead to abuse because he also emphasizes that men and women are equal in value:

(Grudem) "This created order is also best for us, because it comes from an allwise Creator. This created order truly honors men and women. It does not lead to abuse but guards against it, because both men and women are equal in value before God. (Biblical Foundations for Manhood and Womanhood, link 53)"

Continuing to quote Grudem

I strongly deplore any abuse of wives by their husbands and I believe the Bible teaches clearly against it. When pastors learn about abuse occurring in a home in their congregation, they have an obligation before God to seek to bring an immediate end to it, through direct personal conversation with the abuser, support of the abused, professional counseling, through means such as church discipline, protective personal intervention in dangerous situations, using law enforcement and other legal pressures, extensive prayer, and, if necessary, legal separation. Pastors also need to encourage their church members and attendees to tell someone in church leadership if abuse is occurring, so that appropriate means can be brought to bring an immediate end to it. Nobody in a leadership role in CBMW thinks that abuse within a marriage is justified by the biblical teachings about husbands and wives.

Wayne Grudem, Ph.D., Research Professor, Phoenix Seminary, and co-founder and past president of CBMW

Hold it right there, Wayne Grudem……

.I thought that you said that complementarianism does not lead to abuse. So why all the caveats about what to do when abuse occurs? Please read the entire post at Cry for Justice which cogently points out how all of those steps sound nice in theory but don't happen in reality in many complementarian churches. By the way, Grudem does not allow for divorce in the case of abuse as pointed out by the article.

Why complementarianism does not prevent abuse.

TWW has listed church after church which have experienced abused wives, children, and members within the "complementarian is the gospel answer" crowd. Let's take a look at the Duggars. They did it all correctly by chaperoning, homeschooling, no bathing suits, looking down when girl not dressed in long jeans skirts walk by, etc. They believed in the submission routine on the part of wives and children. It didn't work and their kids were abused by their brother. And there is a darn good reason why it doesn't work for the complementarian crowd either.

Abuse has nothing to do with acting out specific roles, refusing to watch R rated movies, keeping women keeping quiet in church, making sure boys play with trucks and girls play with dolls, etc. It is about mentally unbalanced individuals, some of whom are sociopaths, who crave using power to be in control. You can't cure them with good intentions or church discipline. They need to be turned over to the authorities.

9. Church discipline won't fix it and membership covenants will not prevent it.

10. Pastors and church leaders are not equipped to investigate it, make pronouncements on guilt or innocence and provide counseling to make the abuser "walk in repentance."

The shame of many complementarian groups

And that is why complementarian groups like TGC, CBMW, Acts29, Fellowship Associates, Authentic Manhood and people like John Piper, Wayne Grudem, Owen Strachan, Bruce Ware, and Mary Kassian are utterly useless in addressing abuse. Think of the support of SGM during the horrendous sex abuse scandals and remember Al Mohler's joke on CJ Mahaney's Google presence? Why do they never discuss the sex abuse scandals of their member churches? Every single one of these groups have enough to be ashamed of when it comes to the church's response to abuse. Every.Last.One.

For now, there is not a single group in this list that I could safely say is consistently responding appropriately to abuse. I hope I can be proven wrong in the future.

I am gratified to see that Dallas Theological Seminary will offer a mandatory course in preventing sex abuse. I hope more seminaries and churches will offer such courses along with understanding and preventing domestic violence. Until that happens, TWW will continue to point out abuse after abuse within these groups who think their theology will prevent violence. They are naive and potentially dangerous in their continued lack of thoughtful response in this area.

Wayne Grudem has a book signing next Monday evening at Phoenix Seminary. If someone were to go out there with a sign, what would be a good thing to say on it? Maybe “Complementarianism Doesn’t Stop Sexual Abuse of Children”?

Mark Driscoll is speaking on Thursday the 15th for the Arizona Christian Legal Society luncheon meeting. It is also meeting at Phoenix Seminary. I *do* plan on hitting the seminary sidewalk for that; I’ve already arranged to take the time off from work.

Comps are hell bent on making sure that their legacy lasts that they’re indoctrinating children in this theology. Making sure that little boys and little girls understand their God given roles and accept them without question helps to further along the agenda. Men are the heads and women are the helpers, that’s it, no questioning. And, don’t even begin to question your sexuality. That’s incredibly untrustful of how God designed you.

Comps are hell bent on making sure that their legacy lasts that they’re indoctrinating children in this theology. Making sure that little boys and little girls understand their God given roles and accept them without question helps to further along the agenda. Men are the heads and women are the helpers, that’s it, no questioning. And, don’t even begin to question your sexuality. That’s incredibly untrustful of how God designed you.

Here’s some background on Fellowship Associates. Fellowship Associates came about as a result of the success of Robert Lewis’ “men’s fraternity” curriculum (now also referred to as “authentic manhood”). Churches and college campus ministries nationwide began using it and men, especially young, naive college graduate types, became enamored with it. Robert Lewis and the other two founding pastors of Fellowship Bible Church, Little Rock AR (FBCLR) are fairly “normal” guys with “normal” families in the realm of contemporary evangelical christianity. none of their children were homeschooled, and they attended public schools or secular private schools. Their kids all went to division one universities and pledged mainstream sororities and fraternities (all of this is a really big deal in the south – i’m just trying to paint a picture that these are not quiverful / gothard type people). The three founding pastors all had seminary degrees, unlike your CJ Mahaney types. Robert Lewis actually attended Western Seminary in Portland OR so he has had a taste of the pacific northwest (significant, considering they were all raised in the Bible Belt and attended the University of Arkansas for their undergrad years). They realized that the men’s fraternity curriculum was very positively impacting young men, especially ones who had grown up with only single mothers raising them. their relationships with their dads were few and far between, and men’s fraternity showed them how to be a man. it filled a void. it met a “felt need,” to use the churchy lingo. the motto of men’s frat. is “reject passivity, accept responsibility, lead courageously, expect God’s reward.” as the popularity increased, the idea of a church planting agency came about. fellowship associates was created and the main program of it was a one-year residency training in pastoral leadership at fbclr. men would move, with their families, to Little Rock for one year to be trained by these “amazing pastors” at fbclr and then be commissioned to go out and plant churches according to the outlines of fbclr. Dave Furman of Redeemer Church of Dubai participated in this, as well as many more you can read about at the Fellowship Associates website. From what i understand, Fellowship Memphis came about when Mark DeYmaz, the student pastor of FBCLR at the time, wanted to receive the blessing of FBCLR to plant a racially / socio-economically diverse church in the heart of Little Rock (FBCLR is in the suburbs and caters to mostly white, upper middle class families). That church eventually became Mosaic Church of Central Arkansas, which you can look up, but DeYmaz did not receive the FBCLR blessing. They said, we love this idea, but we don’t love for you to do it in our backyard. DeYmaz said good riddance and started the church anyway. My understanding is that Fellowship Memphis became the church plant that was initially envisioned by Mark DeYmaz. Memphis was chosen because it was a city with a severely racially divided atmosphere, and it was just far enough away from Little Rock that it would not “compete” with FBCLR. I guess the reason i mention all of this is because Fellowship Associates has alot at stake. They cannot afford to pay (too many) lawsuits. What (i believe) started as a noble mission, has turned into a corporate powerhouse where the 1 percent has 99 percent of the power, just like on wall street. I believe that the only thing that will stop them is for people to come forward and tell their truth over and over again, to put it all over media and social media, and to stop attending and giving money to these churches. in the south, it’s so hard for people to stop supporting their church because it’s like a country club. you lose alot of friends if you speak up and speak out. but i’m finding that with my generation (x and millennials), we are not putting up with it. Once our parents’ generation dies out, churches are going to start dying out too (as long as we make sure our parents haven’t left their estate to their church LOL).

Protecting a doctrine over protecting real people is a sign of missing the mark spiritually, IMO. I seem to remember Jesus calling out a certain religious crowd about doing such a thing…

Nick posted this comment awhile ago. It was so good, I saved it.

Nick Bulbeck ‘ comment on The Wartburg Watch:
“But I came across a great quote on someone’s blog a few years ago. I’ve not been able to find it since, otherwise I’d attribute it, but the best I can do is say that I didn’t come up with this. It goes, as near as I can remember it, thus:
Where law is paramount, rules matter more than people; and Christians will hurt people in order to obey the rules. But where love is paramount, people matter more than rules; and Christians will break the rules in order to protect people.”

Where law is paramount, rules matter more than people; and Christians will hurt people in order to obey the rules. But where love is paramount, people matter more than rules; and Christians will break the rules in order to protect people.”

This reminds me of Christ healing on the sabbath and saying that if your ox falls in a pit on the sabbath, then by all means, you get it out. Of course, these groups don’t truly follow Christ.

They realized that the men’s fraternity curriculum was very positively impacting young men, especially ones who had grown up with only single mothers raising them. their relationships with their dads were few and far between, and men’s fraternity showed them how to be a man.

Interesting.

I wonder what the evidence for this is. I hear so many claims that groups or leaders are ‘changing peoples’ lives’ and so on but how does anyone really know?
I’m starting to feel as if 90% of what is said in the Christian world is just meaningless word salad.

Yes, I watched some of the Authentic Manhood videos with my husband. I did notice that “passivity” seemed to be considered the ultimate sin. My feeling watching it was that men may feel pressured to act decisively but unwisely.

The series was pathetically unscriptural, full of cliches and stereotypes, and loaded with logical fallacies. I just did not see anything of value in it. One close friendship with a mature, godly man would be worth more than the whole Authentic Manhood ball of wax.

Further, if they want to put together some sort of “motto” why not draw something out of the scriptures? Like the fruits of the Spirit maybe, or some things Christ actually taught? There is so much there that is being ignored. This is all just ideas and teachings of men.

I wonder what the evidence for this is. I hear so many claims that groups or leaders are ‘changing peoples’ lives’ and so on but how does anyone really know?

That’s just my observations from being around guys I knew from college who went through the curriculum. The void felt by fatherless men is definitely real and the m.frat. program addressed it. I’m not saying the approach is correct or that it is effective, but it was appealing to many men from this standpoint.

Where law is paramount, rules matter more than people; and Christians will hurt people in order to obey the rules. But where love is paramount, people matter more than rules; and Christians will break the rules in order to protect people.”

Yep. That was me, to a tee. After all, if God is eternally unchanging, Truth is absolute, the Law is the perfect reflection of God’s character, and we are depraved sinners, why shouldn’t we prioritize the rules over people? What’s more important after all?

I’m just glad I didn’t do more damage (by God’s grace) than I did before I realized the real truth…

“This created order truly honors men and women. It does not lead to abuse but guards against it, because both men and women are equal in value before God.”–Wayne Grudem
+++++++++++++++++++

i fail to see the logic.

The logic is this – a lot of TR types believe in sanctification by correct doctrine. Simply *believe* the right things, and proper obedience must follow, because God built the universe to function along His unchanging creation order.

The fact that this method totally failed in my own life played a huge part in my eventual departure from the TR world…

razorbackSally wrote:
They realized that the men’s fraternity curriculum was very positively impacting young men, especially ones who had grown up with only single mothers raising them. their relationships with their dads were few and far between, and men’s fraternity showed them how to be a man.
Interesting.
I wonder what the evidence for this is. I hear so many claims that groups or leaders are ‘changing peoples’ lives’ and so on but how does anyone really know?

One can have no doubt that they change peoples’ lives, and probably profoundly, the issue is whether lives are changed for the better or the worse.

No doubt a great number of young men with no father, or absent, indifferent or abusive fathers respond positively to somewhat older men slapping them on the backs and taking the role of surrogate dad, but in too many cases within pseudochristendom, the surrogate dad is opportunistic, cynical, looking to create a following and build themselves up into a Big Thing, and the young men just dying for some male attention are pawns in a larger game, not an end, a means that can be discarded like waste once they are no longer useful. They end up wounded again, worse than before.

Velour wrote:
Where law is paramount, rules matter more than people; and Christians will hurt people in order to obey the rules. But where love is paramount, people matter more than rules; and Christians will break the rules in order to protect people.”
This reminds me of Christ healing on the sabbath and saying that if your ox falls in a pit on the sabbath, then by all means, you get it out. Of course, these groups don’t truly follow Christ.

Velour wrote:
Where law is paramount, rules matter more than people; and Christians will hurt people in order to obey the rules. But where love is paramount, people matter more than rules; and Christians will break the rules in order to protect people.”
Yep. That was me, to a tee. After all, if God is eternally unchanging, Truth is absolute, the Law is the perfect reflection of God’s character, and we are depraved sinners, why shouldn’t we prioritize the rules over people? What’s more important after all?
I’m just glad I didn’t do more damage (by God’s grace) than I did before I realized the real truth…

I’ve been focusing on Grudem in several recent posts at A Cry For Justice.

The complementarian juggernaut continues to give us the SILENT TREATMENT.

no surprises there — that’s what they’ve always done.

People like Mary Kassian dismay me. She has written about how she has personally helped abused wives get out from dire situations…. yet she is still not doing anything to call the complementarian camp to account for their failure to do enought to teach male headship in a way that protects women from domestic abuse.

Now, which scandal should we address next…? It’s not a scandal so to speak but I think it is a key issue that promotes abuse. I would like to take a crack at it myself is the practical application of inerrancy in the real world in events like abuse. I would like to look at it from the Chicago Declaration.

http://www.bible-researcher.com/chicago1.html I find that we actually deal with almost all of our issues in this world using probability and relatively to the situation and not by absolute declarations. It will be based on my experience in the state institution and what I came to understand from those dear people. I promise it will be filled with potential categorical errors, emotionalism, frustration, and best of all the hope I have found again in Christ mainly because of blogs online and individuals sojourning outside the main camps.

Ken F. and others here have also been reading E.O. on these various topics.

Someone here – I don’t remember whom – recommended Reconsidering TULIP by Alexander
J. Renault. He was a Calvinist who started studying Eastern Orthodox Christianity for research. He ended up converting. It’s a gem of a book — 117 pages. So well reasoned!

Razorback Sally, thank you for the remarks on the history of men’s fraternity an its roots of association with Fellowship Bible of Little Rock (the mother ship). In fact, as you were describing the racially diverse church vision, I thought, “That sounds just like Mosaic.” It has been years since I thought about the connective roots from Fellowship Bible that Mosaic Church sprang from.

I am older than you but I am from that area and I remember when that was getting started. My husband and I were armpit deep in parenting little boys and he had neither the time nor the inclination for such things. I read books on parenting and we made our way together. We both parented. We disagreed sometimes. We compromised. Sometimes one of us “gave in” when we couldn’t find a compromise. We agreed more often than not.

Someone’s comment about the video series that admonished men to not be passive but lead courageously reminded me of something I saw at church one morning a few years ago. Young Mom walks into the building an heads to the nursery. She has her purse, Bible, diaper bag, and two year old on one hand. The other hand is carrying the infant in the usual unwieldy carrier. Where is Young Dad? Why, he is leading his family courageously. He is walking three steps ahead of them, carrying his travel coffee mug. When he was put on the elder board this past year, I knew I wasn’t the only one who had noticed the courageous way he leads his family.

Someone’s comment about the video series that admonished men to not be passive but lead courageously reminded me of something I saw at church one morning a few years ago. Young Mom walks into the building an heads to the nursery. She has her purse, Bible, diaper bag, and two year old on one hand. The other hand is carrying the infant in the usual unwieldy carrier. Where is Young Dad? Why, he is leading his family courageously. He is walking three steps ahead of them, carrying his travel coffee mug. When he was put on the elder board this past year, I knew I wasn’t the only one who had noticed the courageous way he leads his family.

Thanks for linking to my post on Wayne Grudem, TWW!
I’ve been focusing on Grudem in several recent posts at A Cry For Justice.
The complementarian juggernaut continues to give us the SILENT TREATMENT.
no surprises there — that’s what they’ve always done.
People like Mary Kassian dismay me. She has written about how she has personally helped abused wives get out from dire situations…. yet she is still not doing anything to call the complementarian camp to account for their failure to do enought to teach male headship in a way that protects women from domestic abuse.

Equality is best. There is no such thing as “headship” unless there is a body ship or arm ship and such. When someone is viewed as lesser in any way, it brings out the serious problems such as the ever subtle belief one does not need to listen to the deceived female who God says needs a “head” as in authority. That is a colossal interpretive lie. . Jesus Christ instituted NO mediators for women. All the one another’s are mutual. IOW, there is no way to teach male authority that is not in some way destructive to the “lesser” party. And we all know they define kephale as authority.

He was taught and affirmed as the spiritual VIP of his family. they want us to believe this translates into protection and carrying the heavy load of responsibility. I have seen the opposite in every comp church. Strange how it rarely works out that way unless the comps are operating as mutualist who wear the comp mask at church.

Women are constantly told that they just have not experienced the right type of comp man or that only her submission and prayers will make him a good one. IOW, Jesus Christ crucified and resurrected was not enough for the “Christian” husband.

“This created order truly honors men and women. It does not lead to abuse but guards against it, because both men and women are equal in value before God.”–Wayne Grudem
+++++++++++++++++++
i fail to see the logic.

It is bizarre. It is not unlike the illogic I saw on display at the Islamic booth at Worldfest. Manned by a young woman in hijab, the literature was all about Islam’s teaching on the “equality of women”. The literature was well done. A big promotional sign said, I love Jesus….because I am Muslim. A new recruiting tactic?

It made me think of all the bold lies of history that worked to the destruction of people. If it is declared bold enough, people believe it. Look at all the young men who were indoctrinated by Grudem for the last 20 years. When will people learn to question?

I have yet to meet a comp that does not insist women are considered equal. Now some Muslims are insisting the same?

“Wayne Grudem states that complementarianism will prevent abuse. He is wrong, dead wrong.”

one wonders exactly how this man defines ‘abuse’, when his system of ‘male headship’ is under-written by the assumption that ‘men’ and their privileges as ‘males’ trump the God-given dignity of their wives and children found in their free will, their moral consciences, and their ‘voice’ as human persons.

When you start with the understanding that a system you have built your empire on is NOT ‘abuse’ but ‘privilege’ by virtue of your male sex;
then the corollaries that follow that system cannot help but reflect its innate corruption.

The ‘male headship’ tolerance for ‘abuse’ is built into the original extreme system. So what do people expect will come from it anyway ????

The abuse continues. Scandal after scandal revealed. Driscoll invited to speak to Christian lawyers – irony there.
I don’t understand what people get out of going to church.
It really is an alternate universe to me.

Wayne Grudem has a book signing next Monday evening at Phoenix Seminary. If someone were to go out there with a sign, what would be a good thing to say on it? Maybe “Complementarianism Doesn’t Stop Sexual Abuse of Children”?

Young Mom walks into the building an heads to the nursery. She has her purse, Bible, diaper bag, and two year old on one hand. The other hand is carrying the infant in the usual unwieldy carrier. Where is Young Dad? Why, he is leading his family courageously. He is walking three steps ahead of them, carrying his travel coffee mug.

Where is Young Dad? Why, he is leading his family courageously. He is walking three steps ahead of them, carrying his travel coffee mug. When he was put on the elder board this past year, I knew I wasn’t the only one who had noticed the courageous way he leads his family.

God forgive us our foolish ways. I just hope this isn’t a description of a ‘quiverfull’ family scene, or that poor wife might end up as deranged as Andrea Yates . . . . that woman is being ‘led’ all right, right into hell on Earth.

I once saw a picture of Michelle Duggar grooming her husband’s hair …. she looked care-worn as though she had had little sleep or rest, but her lord and master was quite presentable. It was a very telling photograph. It said almost too much about something that sickens the spirit of all women who have any feeling for their put-upon sisters. I thought at the time, if Jim Bob was a REAL man, he would put his wife in the car and drive her to a beauty shop for the works and quit his preening at her expense.

When REAL MANHOOD in that terrible world of quiverfull male-headship is at its most destructive, we end up with the Andrea Yates and the Mary Winklers. Such are the sacrifices offered on the altars of the Golden Bull of Testosterone Idolatry.

“6. Reading through the CBMW site 100 times or making sure there are no soap bubble on a woman’s dishes will stop it.”

Dee is right. My father abused my mother. There would be periods of time when my dad would treat my mom well, but we never knew when he would go off the rails, or how long he would stay off the rails. My mom is a very shy, passive, “submissive” type of person, but that didn’t stop the abuse. There were occasions when my dad would claim that my mom didn’t rinse the dishes properly. He would throw a glass or a cup across the kitchen and hit her. If it wasn’t “soap bubbles”, it would be because she didn’t bring him a cup of coffee fast enough, or he left a pair of pliers laying on the ground beneath the tractor and the pliers were lost because she didn’t go out, find them, and put them in the tractor tool box for him ………. The list goes on. Anything to justify releasing his rage on her. We went to church. My dad: Saturday night wife beater, Sunday morning saint.

“Wayne Grudem claims that complementarianism guards against abuse. He maintains that his ideas on authority and submission don’t lead to abuse because he also emphasizes that men and women are equal in value:”

Bull, bull, and more bull. IMO, if a man has a case of “little man syndrome”, or even leans toward sociopathy, Complementarianism only feeds the monster and makes it grow stronger, more violent, and careen completely out of control! What do our churches do about it? They protect the abusers.

They seem to think they can just SAY ‘we don’t support abuse’ but what you do speaks louder.

Women are counseled to go home to abusive husbands. Women are told they are committing the ‘sin’ of passivity if they do not report to pastors to fix it (which they cannot do). Women are told they are not allowed to divorce. Women are not believed when they report abuse. Children are not believed when they report abuse.

Women are constantly told that they just have not experienced the right type of comp man or that only her submission and prayers will make him a good one. IOW, Jesus Christ crucified and resurrected was not enough for the “Christian” husband.

Well of course the right type of comp man would treat them well. That would be because the man is a good man, not because he is a complementarian. Resorting to that argument is admitting the practice of complementarianism isn’t helpful.

Bruce Ware says women are not made in the image of God, and their only purpose is to “glorify man”, and I’m sure he has a lot of comp followers.

If Bruce Ware is right, how can women have souls? In this line of thinking, wouldn’t woman clearly be just just another animal that God gave man dominion over? Some kind of china-doll-sex-slave/Labrador retriever/work mule hybrid?
What does it matter how women behave. Snort! We don’ answer to God, anyway. We only answer to men!

“Where law is paramount, rules matter more than people; and Christians will hurt people in order to obey the rules. But where love is paramount, people matter more than rules; and Christians will break the rules in order to protect people.”

Thank you, Dee and Deb, for continuing to focus on protecting people over protecting rules, “leaders,” theologies, and institutions.

This quote really sums up the situations you’ve described. We’ve seen it over and over – churches and “christian” organizations closing ranks and protecting their rules and institutions while, at best, ignoring victims or, at worst, actively working against victims. It’s almost impossible to understand how anyone can look at the life of Jesus and justify this behavior. Sadly, it makes me wonder if, for many people, maintaining their own power and authority is the ultimate goal.

If Bruce Ware is right, how can women have souls? In this line of thinking, wouldn’t woman clearly be just just another animal that God gave man dominion over? Some kind of china-doll-sex-slave/Labrador retriever/work mule hybrid?

That’s pretty much how it ends up, yes. And I believe a number of the subordinationists follow that line of reasoning.

Jacob Prasch had some great Youtube videos this summer taking these Calvinista types to task. He said they are the philosophical equivalent of Sharia. He also traces their worldview back to Augustine, who had a colored view of the world from his time in the Manichee cult.

He also goes on to describe their view of God as Platonic, coming from the Greco-Roman concept Augustine had, and not from the Scripture. Basically, they aren’t worshipping the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but I think we already knew that.

If Bruce Ware is right, how can women have souls? In this line of thinking, wouldn’t woman clearly be just just another animal that God gave man dominion over? Some kind of china-doll-sex-slave/Labrador retriever/work mule hybrid?

Like “Brown Sugah” during slave days — just human enough so it isn’t Bestiality.

“This created order truly honors men and women. It does not lead to abuse but guards against it, because both men and women are equal in value before God.”–Wayne Grudem
+++++++++++++++++++

i fail to see the logic.

Because there is none. It’s magical thinking. If we SAY we are not for abuse…if we SAY it protects women for them to know their place…then that will fix it all. Grudem even said if you take abuse to the pastor they will stop it. How does he think that will happen? It won’t.

Well of course the right type of comp man would treat them well. That would be because the man is a good man, not because he is a complementarian. Resorting to that argument is admitting the practice of complementarianism isn’t helpful.

Reminds me of “This time we WILL achieve True Communism! Because this time the RIGHT people (guess who?) Will Be In Charge!”

If Bruce Ware is right, how can women have souls? In this line of thinking, wouldn’t woman clearly be just just another animal that God gave man dominion over? Some kind of china-doll-sex-slave/Labrador retriever/work mule hybrid?

The void felt by fatherless men is definitely real and the m.frat. program addressed it.

I wonder if the way it filled the void was simply by connecting younger men with older and giving them attention? I don’t know enough about the program to know.

It seems like you could design something without this goofy ‘authentic’ label that put some sort of mentoring in place. I could see fatherless men appreciating the focused attention. But it seems like you could probably have the same results with a focused deer camp or fishing.

It seems like you could design something without this goofy ‘authentic’ label that put some sort of mentoring in place. I could see fatherless men appreciating the focused attention. But it seems like you could probably have the same results with a focused deer camp or fishing.

Some of the people I know involved with Celebrate Recovery have said they dealt with a lot of these issues beneficially. CR is still fairly based on the accountability model, but they do have a caveat that the information cannot be used outside the small group (such as by the church). They also take a total depravity approach which I disagree with, since I don’t believe in total depravity and know non-Christians who have successfully beat addictions.

Wayne Grudem has a book signing next Monday evening at Phoenix Seminary. If someone were to go out there with a sign, what would be a good thing to say on it? Maybe “Complementarianism Doesn’t Stop Sexual Abuse of Children”?

I do think faith and God’s intervention can certainly help beat an addiction

I do too, but sadly I now see some of this Christian counseling stuff as a red flag. This is from the celebrate recovery website: “Celebrate Recovery is a biblical and balanced program that helps us overcome our hurts, hang-ups, and habits. It is based on the actual words of Jesus rather than psychological theory.”

What is wrong with psychological theory? Why are Christians so weird about this? Working in mental health, this just makes people sound like they are ditching anything that is actually proven to help to me.

“I am ashamed of anyone who has eyes and still can’t see.” ― Kathryn Lasky, The Journey

As I’ve noted before, the host of complementarian groups you list would have no stage if they didn’t have an audience. I fault the followers as much as the leaders for allowing this cancer to spread. Jesus has a word for such folks “Don’t you understand or comprehend? Is your heart hardened? Do you have eyes, and not see, and do you have ears, and not hear?” (Mark 8:17-18). The blind leading the blind have fallen in the ditch together.

“Celebrate Recovery is a biblical and balanced program that helps us overcome our hurts, hang-ups, and habits. It is based on the actual words of Jesus rather than psychological theory.”
What is wrong with psychological theory? Why are Christians so weird about this? Working in mental health, this just makes people sound like they are ditching anything that is actually proven to help to me.

The last SBC church I was at encouraged people in CR to get professional help if they needed it. So I think it’s interpreted differently at different churches.

“Celebrate Recovery is a biblical and balanced program that helps us overcome our hurts, hang-ups, and habits. It is based on the actual words of Jesus rather than psychological theory.”

well, throwing out the psychiatrist’s presciption medication on the advice of a ‘Christian’ website will likely have profound effects, but I doubt that the ‘Christian’ website would want to be held accountable for them. People who suffer from mental and emotional illnesses are ALREADY very vulnerable, and when these ‘Christian’ organizations target them for control, and something goes wrong, these organizations need to be held responsible for undermining the professional care of those they have targeted.

When you get ‘know-it-alls’ online who have no humility, you can bet they are more in the business of ‘preying’ than ‘praying’. It’s the hubris and sanctimonious smugness that’s the give-away.

@ Velour:
I have heard that Rusty Yates is now being sued for divorce by his second wife. Just from his photographs, I figured he might not be the sharpest guy out there, and old habits die hard.

I remember how horribly people turned on Andrea Yates when it happened, with little or no compassion for her mental illness;
even where I worked, among an educated faculty, there were people who had no comprehension of her tragic actions as the result of a severe psychotic break. They wanted no mercy for her. I was always stunned by that. And yes, those people were openly ‘deeply religious’ and ‘deeply conservative’. (sigh)

The last SBC church I was at encouraged people in CR to get professional help if they needed it.

That’s good. I don’t think everyone needs medication (particularly if you have mild depression, things like exercise can be as effective as medication), and talk therapy or just group support can help a lot people. So I’m not anti-this program or anything.

I just think that whole ‘it’s not psychology so you don’t have to be afraid’ thing is problematic.

I mean…she murdered her children. I don’t think most people knew anything beyond that. All of this psychological break/husband/quiver stuff I only learned about recently.

Thing is, it was all over the news where we were at the time. I know certain parts of the country only listen to certain news sources, and certain radio shock jocks, so I don’t know how they spun the ‘not guilty by reason of insanity’ defense plea.

What I heard is that they went after her like it was a witch hunt. As soon as people in my area heard about the medications she had been on (heavy) and her suicide attempt, and her prior hospitalization, PLUS learning about her living in a renovated bus and home-schooling, with a new baby;
we put two and two together and figured it out.

I think that her story was told differently among certain news organizations, so maybe that is why you are now just learning about some of the facts of the tragedy.

I always ‘blamed’ her husband, but now I just think he was stupid and foolish, and in way over his head with a wife who had serious mental illness and was led by the wrong kind of ‘help’. God knows the truth of this terrible situation, but Velour is right about church ‘counseling’ that does not deal with real medical and psychiatric realities. The woman Andrea was victimized long before she drowned her babies, and those responsible for her victimization share in the guilt, although no one could foresee the nightmare that unfolded. The signs of her desperation were ignored, though.

My understanding is that Fellowship Memphis became the church plant that was initially envisioned by Mark DeYmaz. Memphis was chosen because it was a city with a severely racially divided atmosphere, and it was just far enough away from Little Rock that it would not “compete” with FBCLR.

I had heard part of this before. I believe that Fellowship Memphis started with good intentions. They were originally located in a racially diverse part of the city and had one location. Now they have switched to the multi-site model. All of their sites are in predominantly white/upscale areas of the city. Most of their “fellowship groups” meet in the whitest, richest neighborhoods of Memphis. I would be very curious to know the racial makeup of Fellowship Memphis now.

. yet she is still not doing anything to call the complementarian camp to account for their failure to do enought to teach male headship in a way that protects women from domestic abuse.

I’m a bit confused by this statement. This makes it sound like teaching male headship is fine, as long as it is taught the right way . . . the way that protects women from domestic abuse. This is exactly what the comp camp says they do. It is not their fault, after all, if there are rouge comps that don’t understand male headship. I simply don’t find male headship in scripture at all.

I’ve dealt with depression just about all my adult life. In my experience many people who don’t have problems with depression simply don’t understand those that do. The problem is when those people believe any problem can be solved by faith and assume positions of spiritual authority. I’m trying not to be judgmental because we all have our strengths and weaknesses, but I don’t know how someone can be a pastor without being especially compassionate.

Another problem is that many people seem to think psychiatrists and psychologists want to “cure” Christians of their faith. In my experience that isn’t true at all.

“I don’t understand what people get out of going to church.”
+++++++++++++++

it’s a unique experience. it’s social, but you don’t have to do anything.

you can sit in padded chair in a warm environment with lots of smiley people, all mm-hmm-ing and chuckling in sync, and just receive. no need to make eye contact or make conversation.

it’s God and spiritual, but you don’t have to do anything.

you can sit in said padded chair, listen to a speaker go on for 30 or so minutes with all the right voice inflections to match the right gestures (content is secondary), you can zone in and zone out, day dream, make that shopping list, think about how you want the afternoon to go. and then leave, feeling like you earned some God points to set you up good for the upcoming week.

It seems like you could design something without this goofy ‘authentic’ label that put some sort of mentoring in place. I could see fatherless men appreciating the focused attention. But it seems like you could probably have the same results with a focused deer camp or fishing.

Or taking them along to fix the single mother’s car, repair a neighbor’s roof, play with the grandchildren while your daughter and son-in-law have a date, clean up the neighborhood playground, mow grandpa’s hard, etc, etc.

Tree wrote:
Where is Young Dad? Why, he is leading his family courageously. He is walking three steps ahead of them, carrying his travel coffee mug. When he was put on the elder board this past year, I knew I wasn’t the only one who had noticed the courageous way he leads his family.

God forgive us our foolish ways. I just hope this isn’t a description of a ‘quiverfull’ family scene, or that poor wife might end up as deranged as Andrea Yates . . . . that woman is being ‘led’ all right, right into hell on Earth.

Sadly, this IS the quiverful lifestyle. When I was still married to my ex-husband he often went running on Sunday mornings and I was left at home to get the 5 children ready for church. Then he usually slept through the sermon.

I know certain parts of the country only listen to certain news sources, and certain radio shock jocks

I don’t know why you mention ‘shock jocks’.

The only news I saw was the basic national news and I didn’t exactly follow it obsessively. It was mostly ‘here is a terrible thing that happened’.

yes, a terrible thing happened . . . something that goes beyond ‘normal’ for a young mother in all ways that are reasonable …..

and THAT was a red light that there was more to the story that made it humane to reserve judgment until the mother’s mental health state was examined thoroughly

the horror of what happened …. yes,
but I look at the way some people viewed Andrea Yates and couldn’t see through to the causes of what she did . . . and so, without any comprehension of what mental illness plus stressors and a psychotic break can lead to,
these people judged HER as though she was in her right mind and competent to stand trial ….
these people ‘had hold of the wrong horror’ and could not see through the terrible results of something dreadful that led up to them

So it is with many who judge only on the surface of human situations without comprehension of the full story. It is not without reasons, that it is written that Our God alone can judge the hearts of man.

Our judicial system, at least, understands that mentally incompetent individuals are not fully responsible for what they do;
even if many of our citizens refuse to acknowledge this truth.

If Bruce Ware is right, how can women have souls? In this line of thinking, wouldn’t woman clearly be just just another animal that God gave man dominion over? Some kind of china-doll-sex-slave/Labrador retriever/work mule hybrid?

If Bruce Ware is right, how can women have souls? In this line of thinking, wouldn’t woman clearly be just just another animal that God gave man dominion over? Some kind of china-doll-sex-slave/Labrador retriever/work mule hybrid?

Wife Appliance. That’s the term you’re looking for.

When Caesar Augustus started enforcing Roman laws against adultery, sex slaves became very popular among Romans of means. Because slaves were household appliances and you can’t commit adultery with a household appliance.

When I was still married to my ex-husband he often went running on Sunday mornings and I was left at home to get the 5 children ready for church. Then he usually slept through the sermon.

You did not deserve that kind of ‘desertion’ and I know you must have experienced upset from that kind of treatment. Selfishn behavior on the part of men is the last thing any Christian organization should be celebrating. All this privileged ‘male headship’ nonsense is ridden through with a strong self-centeredness on the part of ‘the men’ that is so far from Our Lord’s own example of self-giving the Church is sent into the world to model.

something that goes beyond ‘normal’ for a young mother in all ways that are reasonable …..

Sadly, I see evil stories of women’s treatment of their children far too often. Of mens murder of their children. They are not all attributable to mental illness. This one was just more dramatic than most. But I know how your mind works on this, so I won’t go any further. I will say

Our judicial system, at least, understands that mentally incompetent individuals are not fully responsible for what they do;

This is why we have a justice system. That is good. Most people who casually hear an awful story in the news think ‘that is awful’ and then leave it to the courts, who they understand will hear more details and be able to hopefully make better judgments. And if they were on the jury, they would listen to the facts and base their decision on that.

What is wrong with psychological theory? Why are Christians so weird about this? Working in mental health, this just makes people sound like they are ditching anything that is actually proven to help to me.

The Psych Gospel According to L Ron Hubbard and David Miscavage.

Mainstream Psych is a threat to both Nouthetic Counseling and Dianetic Auditing.

“Tullian Tchividjian has remarried and is now working on a book.”
That was fast!! But maybe it was wasn’t if he had a relationship with said woman while married. I wonder . . . is she a good comp woman?

Mainstream Psych is a threat to both Nouthetic Counseling and Dianetic Auditing.

I guess just opening the bible and reading it and then claiming your counseling is affective is a lot easier than going to school for years, doing research studies, tracking depression/ptsd scores for improvement, prescribing and managing medication etc…

I guess just opening the bible and reading it and then claiming your counseling is affective is a lot easier than going to school for years, doing research studies, tracking depression/ptsd scores for improvement, prescribing and managing medication etc…

Pffft.
More importantly, glory and praise must be piled upon the men o’ gawd, and not some silly, useless bunch of trained professionals.

“Yes, I watched some of the Authentic Manhood videos with my husband. I did notice that “passivity” seemed to be considered the ultimate sin. My feeling watching it was that men may feel pressured to act decisively but unwisely.”
+++++++++++++

yes, this is the overriding conclusion and feeling.

a silly illustration: we love the county fair. i love disneyland. the last few times we’ve gone all together as a family, my husband is out in front of our pack, leading us on with all manner of purpose and energy. on a mission! the only missing was the machete to cut our path. (I said to myself, “hmmm, i see he’s put a leader hat on… alright, let’s go with it.”)

all we did was walk aimlessly, in circles (but with purpose, mind you).

i finally got out in front, pulled everyone aside, said, “ok, here’s what we’re going to do”…. i mean, i knew exactly what to do, where to go, how to do it to maximize everyone’s fun and make the most efficient use of our time (and big money spent to get in).

Where law is paramount, rules matter more than people; and Christians will hurt people in order to obey the rules. But where love is paramount, people matter more than rules; and Christians will break the rules in order to protect people.”

Yep. That was me, to a tee. After all, if God is eternally unchanging, Truth is absolute, the Law is the perfect reflection of God’s character, and we are depraved sinners, why shouldn’t we prioritize the rules over people? What’s more important after all?

I’m just glad I didn’t do more damage (by God’s grace) than I did before I realized the real truth…

You sound like the young man who takes me to task whenever I post a link to an uncomplimentary comp article. I don’t even know why he bothers. We left his church quite awhile ago. Is this his odd way of expressing love and concern, by calling us to repent and turn from our sin, and threatening us with the fact that we’re going to spend eternity in heaven with these other grim, abusive believers (and some lovely people, too, who were at that same church), so we should get on with the business of forgiving them, and get back into fellowship with them, and let go of past hurts, etc.

Believe me, I don’t dwell in the past, and I’m not hanging on to past hurts. But I certainly have no inclination to go back there and start grasping nettles again, either.

I have heard that Rusty Yates is now being sued for divorce by his second wife. Just from his photographs, I figured he might not be the sharpest guy out there, and old habits die hard.

I think Rusty works for NASA. (An engineer?) He’s probably very rigid. Being around an intractable guy, and he does strike me that way, wouldn’t be a joy.

I was one of those people who didn’t get Andrea Yates and I was very harsh on her.
Forgive me, Lord.

Now that I’ve had a tour of duty of a NeoCalvinist church, complete with the debacle known as “Nouthetic Counseling” (aka fools with no medical licenses engaged in the Unlawful Practice of Medicine, a crime in my state)

I do too, but sadly I now see some of this Christian counseling stuff as a red flag. This is from the celebrate recovery website: “Celebrate Recovery is a biblical and balanced program that helps us overcome our hurts, hang-ups, and habits. It is based on the actual words of Jesus rather than psychological theory.”

“Based on the actual words of Jesus”… There are so many wildly differing interpretations of the words of Jesus, what he meant, what his point was.

I feel sympathy for Andrea Yates because she was treated with Nouthetic Counseling (malpractice) instead of critically needed and bona fide medical care.

She actually did get some bona fide medical care… but then her husband required her to disregard the advice she got because it did not support his comp view. For one example, her psych had stressed that she should have no more children, that it would be dangerous to have children. But Rusty needed to have his quiver full. That meant she also needed to go off her medication, to have a safe pregnancy. He went through the motions of getting care for her but then ignored and disregarded it because he was the king of the castle (or bus, as the case may be). Maybe he thought he was “leading courageously” I don’t know.

No amount of ‘proper headship teaching’ can fix the stupid in a man like that.

Velour wrote:
I feel sympathy for Andrea Yates because she was treated with Nouthetic Counseling (malpractice) instead of critically needed and bona fide medical care.
She actually did get some bona fide medical care… but then her husband required her to disregard the advice she got because it did not support his comp view. For one example, her psych had stressed that she should have no more children, that it would be dangerous to have children. But Rusty needed to have his quiver full. That meant she also needed to go off her medication, to have a safe pregnancy. He went through the motions of getting care for her but then ignored and disregarded it because he was the king of the castle (or bus, as the case may be). Maybe he thought he was “leading courageously” I don’t know.
No amount of ‘proper headship teaching’ can fix the stupid in a man like that.

Thanks for filling me in on those details. It’s been awhile since she killed the kids in the bathtub. And in all honesty, it was so painful for me to hear about that I avoided the more detailed news stories.

I don’t understand what people get out of going to church.
It really is an alternate universe to me.

Some people will pay big money and jump through lots of hoops to get rid of guilt.

We stopped going to Sunday church at a point when we were connected with a couple of home fellowships, which met in the evenings. It took several weeks to not feel guilty, or at least out of place, sleeping in on Sunday morning. Then it takes longer to stop looking down on the other people you see around town on a Sunday morning, jogging, going to the store, and wondering, “Why are THEY in church?” Maybe judgementalism is the flipside of guilt.

elastigirl wrote:
“This created order truly honors men and women. It does not lead to abuse but guards against it, because both men and women are equal in value before God.”–Wayne Grudem
+++++++++++++++++++
i fail to see the logic.
The logic is this – a lot of TR types believe in sanctification by correct doctrine. Simply *believe* the right things, and proper obedience must follow, because God built the universe to function along His unchanging creation order.
The fact that this method totally failed in my own life played a huge part in my eventual departure from the TR world…

It took me a long time to connect those dots in what I was witnessing from that movement.. You state it perfectly: Sanctification by correct doctrine.

Yes, I watched some of the Authentic Manhood videos with my husband. I did notice that “passivity” seemed to be considered the ultimate sin. My feeling watching it was that men may feel pressured to act decisively but unwisely.

In fairness to some of these men, they have seen the problems that result from absent fathers who are men of good character. So I think it is true that many young men have no idea what “being a man” looks like. IMO this is a case of seeing a problem but jumping to the wrong solution.

I don’t think any Christian should be passive, whether male or female. The “solution” they are proffering is an artificial “manhood” that is certainly not Authentic. To make it an even sadder story, many young men are attracted to the older men who are teaching this and, IMO, look to them as surrogates in a way for their absent or ineffective fathers rather than looking for that healing in their new identity in Christ.

The real solution is to teach young men *and* young women to emulate Christ and his values and attitudes rather than the world’s. What the Usual Suspects have done is attempt to sanctify the world’s methods and attitudes. And that is worse than futile. It is destructive.

That, in a nutshell, is why I am so gravely disappointed in those who want to have a diverse church that looks like the Kingdom. Except at the leadership level. That is reserved strictly for males. One would think that people like Thabiti Anyabwile and Loritts family would get that at a very deep level.

No doubt a great number of young men with no father, or absent, indifferent or abusive fathers respond positively to somewhat older men slapping them on the backs and taking the role of surrogate dad, but in too many cases within pseudochristendom, the surrogate dad is opportunistic, cynical, looking to create a following and build themselves up into a Big Thing, and the young men just dying for some male attention are pawns in a larger game, not an end, a means that can be discarded like waste once they are no longer useful. They end up wounded again, worse than before.

Totally Reformed. The term’s probably a bit dated, but it was current when I was involved in that world. It designates someone who is fanatically devoted to Reformed theology and it’s application to life. It was used both as a descriptor and as an insult.

The abuse continues. Scandal after scandal revealed. Driscoll invited to speak to Christian lawyers – irony there.
I don’t understand what people get out of going to church.
It really is an alternate universe to me.

Those of us who grew up in decent churches have had a hard time with the encroaching authoritarianism and corruption. I grew up in churches that viewed the pastor as an employee, the lay people set the budget and voted on it every year with quarterly reports mailed out to each member. It was a different world. It wasn’t usually profitable or glamorous to be pastor.

I guess just opening the bible and reading it and then claiming your counseling is affective is a lot easier than going to school for years, doing research studies, tracking depression/ptsd scores for improvement, prescribing and managing medication etc…

According to my former cult, all that education and State sanction makes your help dangerous. You are trying to usurp the pastoral ministry. They actually say this in their literature:

“This same separation from the context of the Body now occurs with the pastoral ministry, as marriage counselors, family therapists, psychiatrists, psychotherapists and so on now provide the “expert” pastoral care for people’s minds and spirits. Instead of having an accreditation from God by signs and miracles (Acts 2:22), these new psycho-pastors have accreditation from the State. As more people stand unwilling to accept responsibility before God, they fall prey to these false pastoral ministries that do not confront people with their responsibility but primarily seek to absolve them of the guilt of sin.”https://homesteadheritageinfo.blogspot.com/2016/08/when-homestead-leaders-play-psychiatrist.html

It’s very twisted and dangerous thinking. No wonder they had their own version of Andrea Yates. A woman who doused her kids with gasoline and set them on fire.

siteseer wrote:
“Based on the actual words of Jesus”… There are so many wildly differing interpretations of the words of Jesus, what he meant, what his point was.
I found this extremely interesting.http://www.reasonablefaith.org/red-letter-gospels

It was a combination of factors over time. First, as I alluded to earlier, the whole “sanctification by correct theology” scheme was a total bloody failure in my own life. Second, I realized that most of the great theologians I admired were pastors first, theoretical theologians second – and that being a good pastor was more important. Third, by force of circumstances I had to interact with progressive Christians much more than I wanted to, and discovered that y’all are not satanists in Christian drag. 😉 Last but not least, I was very lucky (providentially – I’m still a Calvinist 😉 ) to get some good classes at RTS before the TRs purged the faculty – classes that taught me to see things much more Christ-centeredly than was good for an aspiring TR fanatic.

Tree wrote:
Where is Young Dad? Why, he is leading his family courageously. He is walking three steps ahead of them, carrying his travel coffee mug. When he was put on the elder board this past year, I knew I wasn’t the only one who had noticed the courageous way he leads his family.

God forgive us our foolish ways. I just hope this isn’t a description of a ‘quiverfull’ family scene, or that poor wife might end up as deranged as Andrea Yates . . . . that woman is being ‘led’ all right, right into hell on Earth.

Sadly, this IS the quiverful lifestyle. When I was still married to my ex-husband he often went running on Sunday mornings and I was left at home to get the 5 children ready for church. Then he usually slept through the sermon.

And I bet if you had mentioned any frustration or exhaustion, you would have been rebuked because it was *your* fault for not asking for help, and how is your husband supposed to know what kind of help you need if you don’t lay it out clearly for him and ask his aid (with the corollary being that you are obviously falling down on the job because you can’t handle it yourself, and, sigh, not only does he have to do the hard work of headship and supporting the family, but he has to pick up *your* slack in terms of home and children, as well).

“This created order truly honors men and women. It does not lead to abuse but guards against it, because both men and women are equal in value before God.”–Wayne Grudem
+++++++++++++++++++

i fail to see the logic.

If you sign on to the proposition that it’s indeed the Almighty’s “created order”, based solely on plumbing received at birth, well then yeah, the “so-called logic” fits together like clockwork…
If you don’t buy into the starting point (created order), you see it for the steaming pile of horse poo-poo that it really is.

And I bet if you had mentioned any frustration or exhaustion, you would have been rebuked because it was *your* fault for not asking for help, and how is your husband supposed to know what kind of help you need if you don’t lay it out clearly for him and ask his aid

If she had asked more than once, though, that would be nagging, which we all know is a cardinal sin.

Bridget wrote:
“Tullian Tchividjian has remarried and is now working on a book.”
That was fast!! But maybe it was wasn’t if he had a relationship with said woman while married. I wonder . . . is she a good comp woman?
I wonder …. how long before he cheats on her?

Maybe they will be on the cover of People magazine with excerpts from his big redemption story. (Wink)

And I bet if you had mentioned any frustration or exhaustion, you would have been rebuked because it was *your* fault for not asking for help, and how is your husband supposed to know what kind of help you need if you don’t lay it out clearly for him and ask his aid (with the corollary being that you are obviously falling down on the job because you can’t handle it yourself, and, sigh, not only does he have to do the hard work of headship and supporting the family, but he has to pick up *your* slack in terms of home and children, as well).

Divorce Minister wrote:
Protecting a doctrine over protecting real people is a sign of missing the mark spiritually, IMO.
Not only that. “Doctrine over person” is one of Dr. Lifton’s criteria for thought reform (affectionately known as “mind control”). In other words, it’s a sign you’re in a cult.

That is another dot I finally connected! Thanks to Brad Sargents work.

Wayne Grudem has a book signing next Monday evening at Phoenix Seminary. If someone were to go out there with a sign, what would be a good thing to say on it? Maybe “Complementarianism Doesn’t Stop Sexual Abuse of Children”?

How about something like this: “Complementarianism: Not Biblical, Not Effective, Not Even A Real Word!”

@ Refugee:
I’ve always smiled at those dads who walk around with their baby in that front baby-holder. Now THOSE are AUTHENTIC MEN. All children deserve dads like that, and all moms deserve husbands like that. But I guess ‘male headship’ forbids such behavior on the part of ‘authentic men’. It’s their loss. Bonding with their babies is something they can’t replicate later when the children are older. And the security that the baby feels is something so precious in a world where some ‘churches’ teach parents to beat their infants to ‘break their spirits’. God have mercy.

They are not all attributable to mental illness. This one was just more dramatic than most. But I know how your mind works on this, so I won’t go any further.

I doubt you understand my ‘mind’ and I don’t know you personally. I do think some people blog here under multiple names, but that doesn’t apply here as I give you the full benefit of the doubt.

Something to know about me:
I started out of college working for social services, and I can tell you ‘horror stories’ and no way was the parent involved anywhere near ‘normal’. And as a teacher over many years in the inner city, I had to report numerous cases of child abuse, usually to my direct administrator and the school nurse, and the counselor, who took it from there and called Social Services. I was required by law to report what I observed. I’m neither naive nor ignorant of what people can and have done to children, and on top of this, my family include a pediatrician, two pediatric nurse practitioners, AND a child psychiatrist (my cousin). I’ve heard it all.
The wisest words I ever heard from any knowledgeable person came from Dr. Rachelle Burleson, who told her husband Wade that ‘hurting people hurt people’.

It is NOT normal to abuse or hurt children or abuse animals, but our world sees a lot of this as a result of some VERY troubled people.

No, you don’t know how my mind works, and I’m not sure I even do, but feel free to judge me in your fashion. I’m a big girl. I accept responsibility for the way I come across to others. 🙂 No bad feelings on my part, LEA.

@ ishy:
I thought your ‘toon was very well done. At first, I wanted to say “hilarious!”–but considering how outrageous the actual anecdote is, I realize that it illustrates a monstrous reality in male-dominated churches today.

What I learn from this is that men are CONFUSED! So very, very confused.

This is why they should be in charge. Because of the confusion.

but they have cool fonts!

I like these helpful tips from the leader’s guide:

As men are arriving you could show sports clips from DVD collections or live broadcasts. No audio is necessary when you incorporate the next element.

Create a pop/rock mix of good secular music that men of all ages can identify with. The sound level should be on the verge of being too loud so the conversations are energetic. The environment should feel more like a men’s gathering than a Bible Study or church service.

If Complementarianism is so fabulously Biblical & wondrous where are the testimonies of men who previously were wife beaters telling of how it’s straightened them out as they realised the true value of their wives? Where are the Pastoral tales of when men like the one mentioned, heading into church in front of his over-burdened wife, being taken aside & reminded to help her & his children, who God has given to him as amazing gifts? I think it’s totally right that some men function well in Complemetarianism, I know some who do, because they are decent men & have read not only the verses in the Bible about headship, but those about loving your neighbour as yourself, & that funny little verse (what was Paul thinking?) about love not insisting on its own way.

I’m not into that way of thinking, as when I think of a person exhibiting REAL satanic evil, I think of them being ‘possessed’ and needing ‘the rite’ of exorcism.
I see most people who exhibit severely evil behavior as ‘troubled’, sick, disturbed, and often needing to be kept isolated from others because they are so very rabid and can do great harm in their condition.
Sin is different. People CHOOSE to sin. Mentally ill people are ‘non compos mentis’ and their reasoning processing is out of whack. When Rusty Yates spoke of his wife’s ‘sin’, it showed he had no comprehension of how sick she was, or of how her sickness interfered with her ability to think rationally and act accordingly.

You know, in the old days, mentally ill people were chained to walls in prisons and beaten. So were people who were profoundly retarded. I know that the history of the way both of these groups were treated. Even today, parents raising a ‘special needs child’ are sometimes confronted with some very aggressively ignorant and abusive attitudes from individuals who are not able to understand either on a humane level OR on an educated realistic level. That is something I know from my own experience.

We surely do have different perspectives, and that is not only ‘okay’ but it also adds something to the blog comments in diversity. It’s a good thing.

Velour wrote:
What happened to make you realize what you were doing wrong?
LOOOONG story. Let me explain…. no, is too much. Let me sum up.
It was a combination of factors over time. First, as I alluded to earlier, the whole “sanctification by correct theology” scheme was a total bloody failure in my own life. Second, I realized that most of the great theologians I admired were pastors first, theoretical theologians second – and that being a good pastor was more important. Third, by force of circumstances I had to interact with progressive Christians much more than I wanted to, and discovered that y’all are not satanists in Christian drag. Last but not least, I was very lucky (providentially – I’m still a Calvinist ) to get some good classes at RTS before the TRs purged the faculty – classes that taught me to see things much more Christ-centeredly than was good for an aspiring TR fanatic.

Thank you for explaining how your views changed.

I chose my screen name “Velour”, because our lovely blog queens Dee and Deb are sometimes called “Satin” (sic), “Daughters of Stan (sic)”. I decided to make myself into a fabric for the cause.

I heard about the purge of the moderate teachers. Sad and bad. I’m glad you got to learn from them while they were at seminary.

I think it’s totally right that some men function well in Complemetarianism, I know some who do, because they are decent men & have read not only the verses in the Bible about headship, but those about loving your neighbour as yourself, & that funny little verse (what was Paul thinking?) about love not insisting on its own way.

Complementarianism has always been around in the church, and I think historically in the SBC it was heavily balanced by free will missions theology to “reach the world”. There are decent and genuine non-Baptist Calvinists who practice “love your neighbor” in many ways.

The patriarchy crowd has taken Calvinist theology to the extreme, though. They don’t see much point in loving neighbors, because God will elect them or He won’t, and if they’re elected, they’ll show up in church eventually. I know a Calvinista church near me that is real big on foreign missions, but they totally ignore anyone local. Everyone I know who has visited there described it as “cold”, even those who didn’t know I knew all of them.

I think it’s totally right that some men function well in Complemetarianism, I know some who do, because they are decent men & have read not only the verses in the Bible about headship, but those about loving your neighbour as yourself, & that funny little verse (what was Paul thinking?) about love not insisting on its own way.

Then these good men are good in spite of ‘systems’ where ‘love’ is not a priority or ‘one of the Nine Marks of a healthy Church’.

I think it’s totally right that some men function well in Complemetarianism, I know some who do, because they are decent men & have read not only the verses in the Bible about headship, but those about loving your neighbour as yourself, & that funny little verse (what was Paul thinking?) about love not insisting on its own way.

I think it works fine if it is sort of more ‘technically/soft’ comp. If men are decent and actually love their wives and are selfless. I think an egal marriage with the same type of man would work equally well.

It doesn’t work if it oppressive to the wife, if she doesn’t have a say, if she isn’t respected. When you teach comp, though, THAT is the side of things that is taught. Men are not supposed to be telling women to submit or how to submit. Period. Men are supposed to be taking care of their selfless loving part and we know what love is because paul helpfully described it. Comp advice is unbalanced.

where are the testimonies of men who previously were wife beaters telling of how it’s straightened them out as they realised the true value of their wives

I don’t believe those exist and if I heard one I would honestly be quite suspicious.

I did spend a wasted few moments on the authentic manhood blog about all the many many ‘awesome men of god’ pastors who fell into deep sin (driscol, noble, a bunch of cheaters, etc). Summary: How did this happen, even though they’re so awesome? Remember all you can do is pray, don’t judge, and have grace. There are literally no other things to do. Because even David had problems. Let me tell you about the many times I cheated on my own wife, and she forgave me. Isn’t that great?

Beakerj wrote:
where are the testimonies of men who previously were wife beaters telling of how it’s straightened them out as they realised the true value of their wives
I don’t believe those exist and if I heard one I would honestly be quite suspicious.

Actually I just remembered one! The guy giving the marriage talk at Gateway a few months ago was apparently a ‘bad husband’ early in his marriage. I learned later this was code for abusive. But now he’s cool. According to him. Didn’t hear from his wife or anything.

What I heard is that they went after her like it was a witch hunt. As soon as people in my area heard about the medications she had been on (heavy) and her suicide attempt, and her prior hospitalization, PLUS learning about her living in a renovated bus and home-schooling, with a new baby;
we put two and two together and figured it out.

In 2001, social media was not as well developed. Most news is sound bite and us ignorant people not ‘in your area” mostly had only the 30 sec sound bite or headline story to go by. More information came out later for the ignorant ‘not in your area’ to understand better. It’s not like the major media reported their patriarchal association right off the bat.

The guy giving the marriage talk at Gateway a few months ago was apparently a ‘bad husband’ early in his marriage. I learned later this was code for abusive. But now he’s cool. According to him. Didn’t hear from his wife or anything.

I think it’s totally right that some men function well in Complemetarianism, I know some who do, because they are decent men & have read not only the verses in the Bible about headship, but those about loving your neighbour as yourself, & that funny little verse (what was Paul thinking?) about love not insisting on its own way.

Then these good men are good in spite of ‘systems’ where ‘love’ is not a priority or ‘one of the Nine Marks of a healthy Church’.

Like a lot of the main characters in Harry Turtledove’s In the Presence of Mine Enemies (about secret Jews in the Third Reich some fifty years after the Nazi global conquest). Germans or secret Jews, a lot of them come across as basically-decent people who have to live under an Evil System.

Totally Reformed. The term’s probably a bit dated, but it was current when I was involved in that world. It designates someone who is fanatically devoted to Reformed theology and it’s application to life. It was used both as a descriptor and as an insult.

i.e. More Calvinist than Calvin himself.
Like how the Taliban & Daesh are More Islamic than Mohammed.

I don’t think any Christian should be passive, whether male or female. The “solution” they are proffering is an artificial “manhood” that is certainly not Authentic.

An artificial “manhood” called Hypermasculinity similar to what the Nazis proffered to young German men some 80 years ago and what Taliban/ISIS/Daesh proffers to young Islamic men today. With special appeal to losers.

The wisest words I ever heard from any knowledgeable person came from Dr. Rachelle Burleson, who told her husband Wade that ‘hurting people hurt people’.

That is good as far as it goes, but I note that the quote did not say ‘only hurting people hurt people’.

The psychopaths among us hurt people but do not themselves hurt being lacking in empathy. And then there are the narcissists-which some say may be on the same spectrum. Some people with no malice but an overdose of stupidity sometimes hurt people. Some kinds of psychopathology do not seem to be accompanied by pain but people who suffer from it can inadvertently hurt other people. And there are the people who grow up in a social or family culture or religion which teaches them that certain kinds of persons deserve to be hurt and that somehow the people who do the hurting are pleasing God.

I do not see sufficient evidence to establish the idea that only hurting people hurt people, or that those who hurt people should be presumed to be themselves victims, absent a thorough evaluation of the person by competent professionals.

Where is Young Dad? Why, he is leading his family courageously. He is walking three steps ahead of them, carrying his travel coffee mug.

Oh, I’m sure young Dad was heading to a manly meeting, and in a rush because young Mom had delayed the family’s departure by changing a diaper. He had to be on time, but she had allllll daaaaaay to live out her appointed duties, no pressure and no rush.

Yeah, maybe we should start referring to extremists as right wing tips and left wing tips, since both are out flapping in the breeze. The part of the wing near the bird’s heart is usually working hard and forced to cooperate. 😉

Included in that company is John MacArthur’s Grace Community Church and its network of affiliated parachurch ministries including The Master’s College, The Master’s Seminary, and The Master’s Academy International. They’re committed to promoting female subordination through the false doctrine of the eternal subordination of the Son of God. Here’s TMS’s map of affiliated churches around North America. Try entering search parameters for other parts of the world and you’ll see their influence is very widespread.

“This same separation from the context of the Body now occurs with the pastoral ministry, as marriage counselors, family therapists, psychiatrists, psychotherapists and so on now provide the “expert” pastoral care for people’s minds and spirits. Instead of having an accreditation from God by signs and miracles (Acts 2:22), these new psycho-pastors have accreditation from the State. As more people stand unwilling to accept responsibility before God, they fall prey to these false pastoral ministries that do not confront people with their responsibility but primarily seek to absolve them of the guilt of sin.”https://homesteadheritageinfo.blogspot.com/2016/08/when-homestead-leaders-play-psychiatrist.html

This is a terrible mischaracterization of what counseling is and how counselors seek to help people!

@ Jack:
“I don’t understand what people get out of going to church.”
+++++++++++++++
it’s a unique experience. it’s social, but you don’t have to do anything.
you can sit in padded chair in a warm environment with lots of smiley people, all mm-hmm-ing and chuckling in sync, and just receive. no need to make eye contact or make conversation.
it’s God and spiritual, but you don’t have to do anything.

I understand and respect your experiences and viewpoints. However, plenty of churches have not turned into Sunday morning comedy/variety shows with a dress code and special training in hypocrisy. Or into me-Tarzan-you-Jane festivals of oppression.

There’s hope!

If you want to try out a church–and of course you don’t have to–look for a church that looks like a church, not a storefront. Check out their website and make sure it is in a human language, not jargon. Maybe post the names of some churches here and see if TWW folks know anything about them or their affiliations. Then drive past on a Sunday morning and make sure nobody from TWW is picketing. (That’s a love note to Mirele.)

My church has pews and an organ, new carpet but busted A/C, an annual business meeting with a fully disclosed budget, male and female lay volunteers and clergy, and the love of Christ.

Just recently, I was emailing with clergy about a local family with a new hardship. Although my email was a prayer request, an ordained female clergy member wrote back immediately and asked if she might anonymously offer $100 of her own funds to help the family. She doesn’t even know the family. This is the good Samaritan today.

“Totally Reformed. The term’s probably a bit dated, but it was current when I was involved in that world. It designates someone who is fanatically devoted to Reformed theology and it’s application to life.”
+++++++++

@ siteseer:
That doesn’t surprise me. The people who wrote that are masters at manipulating others through fear. They found news stories of people being admitted to mental institutions against their will, only to be released when the insurance money ran out.

They don’t just do this with mental health, but also medical care, home birth vs hospital birth, home education vs. public education.

Mentally ill people are ‘non compos mentis’ and their reasoning processing is out of whack. When Rusty Yates spoke of his wife’s ‘sin’, it showed he had no comprehension of how sick she was, or of how her sickness interfered with her ability to think rationally and act accordingly.

I do not remember the details of Andrea Yates, but I think there are mental disorders which render someone incapable of understanding right from wrong. There are also mental disorders in which the person is perfectly able to discern right from wrong but who chooses the wrong because it serves their perceived self-interest. That is evil, IMO, though I’m neither any kind of psy* or any kind of theo*. This is not a defense of Rusty Yates by any stretch, but I do think there are people who know but simply do not care who they hurt or the wreckage they leave in their wake.

I think you are correct. So, why not offer the real Gospel? I don’t mean that as a challenge to you but to the Gospel Glitterati. They are offering a false path to significance and fulfillment which only comes by realizing who we are In Christ.

I once saw a picture of Michelle Duggar grooming her husband’s hair …. she looked care-worn as though she had had little sleep or rest, but her lord and master was quite presentable.

That’s a matter of opinion. That hairstyle is so dated, just screams bad taste, flake, oddball, creep, the kind of man who has a perfectly fine name (James Robert) yet goes by the asinine “Jim Bob”. Like when I was a young man in the 1980s and you could generally the spiritually and emotionally constipated, full of self, pharisaical churches because the men proudly wore their hair exactly 30 years behind the times.

where is the “discussion” about his own friends and their seeming blindness to abuse in their own circles.

Just like Michelle and JB Duggar didn’t discuss Josh’s “mistakes” as they raked in the $$$$$ from their oh-so-wholesome “reality” TV show. And Josh went to work for the Family Research Council promoting “family values” while hooking up through Ashley Madison. Those dirty sins always take place among the “others.” It’s just not good marketing strategy to not only admit that your brand failed, but that it was never very effective to begin with. Just look for the New And Improved labels to assure you it WILL work this time. After all, people tend to forget over time. Just give it a few years. The media will move onto something else.

I guess just opening the bible and reading it and then claiming your counseling is affective is a lot easier than going to school for years, doing research studies, tracking depression/ptsd scores for improvement, prescribing and managing medication etc…

The SBTS Masters in counseling program only requires 7 courses in counseling. The balance of hours are primarily theology. I’m sure the 3 semesters of Systematic Theology more than makes up for any inadequacies when someone is doing marriage counseling and has only had one course on Marriage and Family. Do I need to say “sarcasm off”?

Well, 2016 is going to go down in the Parsons’ books as “one of those years.”

Today, at 6:30 AM we called EMS for my stepdad who is in both congestive heart failure (new) and increased renal failure. He has been admitted to a Duke Hospital. My mother than proceeded to develop a stress fracture of her foot and they put her in one of those ridiculous huge removable casts this afternoon. I spent the whole day at the hospital.

Please keep me in your thoughts as I continue to juggle the needs of my elderly parents. I know many of you are struggling in a similar fashion. Please know I think of all of you as I go through these times.

Good news-I found this great under eye brightener to cover the dark circles:)

I am one of those who thinks that SBTS’ program is abusive by design and genuinely wicked. Anyone who has had the opportunity to work with an abused spouse will quickly understand how I come to my conclusion. I see this as an area where SBTS is openly doing the work of the Devil.

FW Rez wrote:
The SBTS Masters in counseling program
I am one of those who thinks that SBTS’ program is abusive by design and genuinely wicked. Anyone who has had the opportunity to work with an abused spouse will quickly understand how I come to my conclusion. I see this as an area where SBTS is openly doing the work of the Devil.

Amen and Amen. And now it is in many churches as SBTS trained pastors use the same foundation for drive by counseling. I cannot warn people enough the ripple effects coming out of SBTS.

FW Rez wrote:
The SBTS Masters in counseling program
I am one of those who thinks that SBTS’ program is abusive by design and genuinely wicked. Anyone who has had the opportunity to work with an abused spouse will quickly understand how I come to my conclusion. I see this as an area where SBTS is openly doing the work of the Devil.

Wow. But I think you’re right. Especially if Lydia is correct and it is Grudems ST.

Was that the seminary where they got rid of the real social work program, or was that a different one?

The SBTS Masters in counseling program only requires 7 courses in counseling. The balance of hours are primarily theology. I’m sure the 3 semesters of Systematic Theology more than makes up for any inadequacies when someone is doing marriage counseling and has only had one course on Marriage and Family

Those dirty sins always take place among the “others.” It’s just not good marketing strategy to not only admit that your brand failed, but that it was never very effective to begin with. Just look for the New And Improved labels to assure you it WILL work this time. After all, people tend to forget over time. Just give it a few years.

@ dee:
Dee, I am so sorry. I am recovering from a rough 18 month stint of caregiving and deaths.The ” Peace that goes beyond understanding” was definitely there during those months, but it still takes a physical, mental and emotional toll. Be assured you are in my thoughts and prayers. It does get better with time, but there will always be bad days. Grief/Share was a big help to my husband and me. Take good care of yourself so you can take good care of others.

Good news-I found this great under eye brightener to cover the dark circles:)

There’s always a bright side. ; ^ )
Sorry to hear the news, Dee. Again, make sure you take good care of yourself. If you don’t do that, you can’t take care of those who need you and depend on you so much. These “authentic manhood” flakes could learn some lessons from you.

I assume that they used to have a program that led to licensing. I know that SEBTS and SWBTS replaced their real programs. But at least SWBTS has a homemaking major now.

I want a teaching position there! Basics, ya know? Don’t matter how pretty you set the table, for a roasted chicken dinner, if you can’t scald and pluck the rooster! I’ll show ’em how it’s done! — and then some!
Y’all think they’d take me? Bwahahaha!

W/r to Dee’s original post… This crowd has elevated “compartmentalization” ” doctrine” to their highest form of purity/works… That and neo-Calvinism…. Talk about idolatry…. Especially when they do not protect the abused/”weaker”….

“However, plenty of churches have not turned into Sunday morning comedy/variety shows with a dress code and special training in hypocrisy. Or into me-Tarzan-you-Jane festivals of oppression.

There’s hope!”
+++++++++++++

hi, friend. thank you for your kind-spirited words.

i’m very jaded. (although a certain proportion of that can be called ‘realistic’)

I’m sure there are a number of churches brimming with integrity and character. i would guess those churches would also be described as ‘simple’ — in a good sense of the word.

i honestly don’t think such churches exist in the town and environs where i live.

the catholic church here is just the best, though. so down to earth. and simple, humble. wanting to make a difference in the community in a low-key kind of way. no big advertising, marketing campaigns. no slick, image-conscious professional christians. not trying to gain market share.

i might go to mass, sit in the back, and just absorb it all. just absorb God/Jesus/Holy Spirit.

you’re in my thoughts, dee. i have similar travails (although not quite as vivid as yours!)

perhaps we can take comfort in knowing there’s a sisterhood and brotherhood all going through similar things. kind of like when one is awake at 3:00 in the morning with the weight of the world on one’s shoulders, it’s comforting to know that dotted around the country are many other tiny reading lights shining in dark bedrooms.

“This created order truly honors men and women. It does not lead to abuse but guards against it, because both men and women are equal in value before God.”–Wayne Grudem
+++++++++++++++++++
i fail to see the logic.

It’s meaningless because in practice, i.e.- real life – women are not equal.

Please keep me in your thoughts as I continue to juggle the needs of my elderly parents. I know many of you are struggling in a similar fashion. Please know I think of all of you as I go through these times.

Hey Dee. I’ve got elderly parents myself, so I can relate. Many prayers for you and your family!

So, I guess we shouldn’t expect them to ask Driscoll about the RICO suit pending against him…

The suit was recently dismissed without prejudice (meaning it can be refiled). The plaintiffs ran out of money to pursue it.

I understand why the plaintiffs brought the suit, but my understanding of civil RICO is that it’s very difficult to make the case stick, which is why I have not supported them in their efforts. I rather wish the state of Washington would have investigated where the money went with regards to the Mars Hill LLC corporation.

elastigirl wrote:
“This created order truly honors men and women. It does not lead to abuse but guards against it, because both men and women are equal in value before God.”–Wayne Grudem
+++++++++++++++++++
i fail to see the logic.
It’s meaningless because in practice, i.e.- real life – women are not equal.

It works like this: Right now, 10 U.S. Dollars is equal in value to 8.9 Euros. Suppose a man is represented by 10 U.S. Dollars and a woman is represented by 8.9 Euros.
If I drive to a U.S. Walmart, and try to pay for for a 10 dollar purchase with 8.9 Euros, what do you think will happen?
Yeah, that’s how equal in value, but not in roles works!
Women stay folded up and tucked away somewhere out of sight and out of mind, while the men are seen, used, and appreciated.

Update from Dee:
Well, 2016 is going to go down in the Parsons’ books as “one of those years.”
Today, at 6:30 AM we called EMS for my stepdad who is in both congestive heart failure (new) and increased renal failure. He has been admitted to a Duke Hospital. My mother than proceeded to develop a stress fracture of her foot and they put her in one of those ridiculous huge removable casts this afternoon. I spent the whole day at the hospital.
Please keep me in your thoughts as I continue to juggle the needs of my elderly parents. I know many of you are struggling in a similar fashion. Please know I think of all of you as I go through these times.
Good news-I found this great under eye brightener to cover the dark circles:)

In the case of any organisation that employs a significant number of people, there’s an easy way to tell whether they consider men and women to be of equal value.

Compare what they pay them.

After all, since we are fixing our hopes on an everlasting kingdom, and the fleeting mist of this world’s riches are deceitful and unimportant, a man of God will be only too glad to forego a salary scaled according to this world’s values. Paying men and women the same hourly rate is the least we can do as a token of our commitment to our equality in value, isn’t it? Paul himself bent over backwards to live out his own message in this area.

Moreover, perhaps we shouldn’t be giving any money to local churches at all. You don’t need money to tell someone about Jesus, or to lay hands on a sick person and heal them, or for the public reading of scripture. Rather, as Christians, perhaps we should give our money just to secular causes – famine relief, health, education, research, that kind of thing. It’s not that these things are “worth” more than local church, you all understand. They are equal in value. It’s just that they have different roles. In fact, by withholding all monetary and other material benefits from the professional clergy class, we can paint a beautiful picture of just how special and valuable they are.

@ dee:
Dee, sorry to hear of your difficulties. Will pray for you and your family members today and tonight. What you’re going through must seem like a long journey with no end in sight, but being there for loved ones is its own blessing, as by now you must realize.
Loved the ad about your ‘cute shoes’. 🙂
Can’t remember the last pair I had that were that cute, as now live in Berkenstocks or Walmart’s best six dollar sneakers (I just bought a RED pair for joy)

Eat well, drink plenty of good spring water, and get some vitamin smoothies. Get out for a long walk, or go for a swim. When you can, go out for a long lunch with a good friend. Go buy some good books and a box of beautiful chocolates. Put on some great music when you are driving and know that people appreciate all your good work for the many that have suffered abuse and are in need of help and a place to tell their stories. God love you, dear.

Update from Dee:
Well, 2016 is going to go down in the Parsons’ books as “one of those years.”

I am so sorry to hear this. You have been and continue to be in my prayers. I can somewhat relate as I am caregiver for my 90 YO mother who is rapidly succombing to dementia. Hang in there and don’t forget to take care of yourself

“This created order truly honors men and women. It does not lead to abuse but guards against it, because both men and women are equal in value before God.”–Wayne Grudem
+++++++++++++++++++
i fail to see the logic.

It’s meaningless because in practice, i.e.- real life – women are not equal.

I just noticed he said they are equal before God…God is not the one who is abusing. If they are not equal to men, what good is equal to God as concerns abuse.

Even their hatred of the word ‘egalitarian’ tells me something. The definition of the actual word is “of, relating to, or believing in the principle that all people are equal and deserve equal rights and opportunities.”

@ Lea:
I have always gotten the sense that they erroneously define egalitarian as Matriarchy.

The tactics of the French Revolution did not help the word, egalitarian. :o(

I really believe scripture shows us the importance of striving for mutuality. Those who don’t, who crave power, use others for power or think they are above the law show their true colors no matter what sort of syrupy language or rationale they use to mask it.

“Yet time and time again, I am disturbed by so called leaders who seem to stress the roles of gender as the most important issue of our day, even claiming that it will stop abuse in our churches.”

‘gender’ is now a topic in play in our country big time as we move towards November;
so maybe the ‘attitude’ in certain religious circles is merely a reflection of what half the voters in our country have been brought up to ‘respect’ (or disrespect)

I think the ‘gender’ issues connected with abuse of women in ‘churches’ and parachurch organizations is not seminal, but reflective of a much more deeply seeded misogyny. Best news of the week: FOX’s apology to one of its former employees who had been victimized by sexual harassment. Worst news of the week, a candidate for office who responded to reports of sexual harassment in the military with an extremely misogynistic statement.

Time to take another look at the congregations that support these abusive ‘churches’ and ask:
‘is the tail wagging the dog’? Are these ‘churches’ merely dishing out what the payees want to see and hear? People flock to them what talks their language, folks. It is written.

“3 For the time will come when men will not tolerate sound doctrine, but with itching ears they will gather around themselves teachers to suit their own desires.” (2 Timothy 4:3)

gender’ is now a topic in play in our country big time as we move towards November;
so maybe the ‘attitude’ in certain religious circles is merely a reflection of what half the voters in our country have been brought up to ‘respect’ (or disrespect)

Christiane wrote:
gender’ is now a topic in play in our country big time as we move towards November; so maybe the ‘attitude’ in certain religious circles is merely a reflection of what half the voters in our country have been brought up to ‘respect’ (or disrespect)

Horsefeathers.

Ha. I really wish we could leave politics out of it except insofar as it is unfortunate and distracting that supposed religious leaders keep trying to attach themselves to different political movements. I joined a liberal church and they are bad about it too sometimes.

This Danvers nonsense is 30 years old. It’s not really about current politics. I think they use the ‘trans’ and gay political part to try to push what they actually want, which is control over women.

@ Lea:
The comp world has been divided on this going back 20 years. We had a lot of fun with it a few cycles ago. The purists vs the opportunists. I think it only exposed the doctrine in ways they never imagined.

It only showed the real problem with comp/pat.

This time, opportunists within that camp are more concerned with keeping the oligharcical establishment where they think they can keep a seat –even in the back benches.

Again, focusing on gender as a group instead of the individual is short sighted on both sides.

Things are never either/or or black/White as some seem to think they are.

Perhaps of women is seen by some in the Church AND in the culture as a reasonable reaction to women who step out of their ‘place’.

Piper cautions women not to upset their husbands by daring to give them directions. My goodness, can you imagine a wife actually doing that? Of course, the husband is going to blow up at her, probably in front of others, just to nail down his ‘authority’ before witnesses to her folly, the stupid, stupid woman.

And yeah, women in the military report sexual harassment and the response is ‘What did these geniuses expect when they put men & women together?’

It’s about keeping people ‘in their place’. It’s about ‘control’, and abuse? ….well, what do expect when women open their mouths to speak, or pick up a gun to fight for their country in battle???

Misogyny is the larger problem. Abuse is ONE way some have seen as a ‘reasonable’ response to women stepping over the line that SOME men have drawn for them.

Political ???? Theological?
or maybe something wider in the culture, an ancient tension which finds its way into all the places where power and control are up for grabs and playing the ‘gender card’ is now being re-examined closely as still morally acceptable to decent human beings.

People flock to them what talks their language, folks. It is written.
“3 For the time will come when men will not tolerate sound doctrine, but with itching ears they will gather around themselves teachers to suit their own desires.” (2 Timothy 4:3)

Is that why you are a catholic? If not, then perhaps you might hesitate before implying that this is why conservative evangelical protestants are what they are.

@ okrapod:
Hi OKRAPOD
there are plenty of conservative evangelical people who don’t fit into the category or the ones I am referring to …. a lot of them come here to tell their stories and they have been in the ‘churches’ were the abuse has occurred and they are witnesses to it

the group I’m writing about are any and all who seek out and find a ‘church’ that follows their ‘standard’ of how women ought to be kept in their places …. and IF the women are considering ‘stepping out of line’, there are plenty of people like Piper who have some advice for them in order to help them NOT to antagonize or upset men

not quite sure if that covers your question, but let me know what is on your mind if it doesn’t

not quite sure if that covers your question, but let me know what is on your mind if it doesn’t

It was not a question, other than to ask if you were a catholic for political reasons.

There is a lot more going on in conservative evangelical churches than merely gender politics, just as there is a lot more in catholicism than gender politics-although women in their place might include no women in holy orders, which is the catholic position at this time. And, BTW, when the vatican made the proposal to anglicans that they had an option to convert, the issue at stake was a broad application of gender politics.

So I am saying two things. It is not correct to blame either protestants or catholics of whatever sort that the only thing which makes them choose a church is gender politics. Or, at least, I do not see it as a single issue matter. And I am saying that the pot should not comment on the condition of the kettle.

@ Lea:
I think if you want to get to the roots of the ‘abuse’ problem in the Church, we have to widen the lens a bit. Not even involving politics is wide enough. It’s even beyond that.

I’m saying the trouble in the Church is a reflection of something much larger. And there is this to think about, that even in the Church the ‘disorder’ is seen as a consequence (result) of the ‘fall’ and NOT something ‘prescribed’ by God in response to the fall:
” “domination” indicates the disturbance and loss of the stability of that fundamental equality which the man and the woman possess in the “unity of the two”: and this is especially to the disadvantage of the woman, whereas only the equality resulting from their dignity as persons can give to their mutual relationship the character of an authentic “communio personarum”. (Mulieris Dignitatem)

I think in order to deal with the problem in the ‘churches’, or at least to comprehend it, it might be necessary to take the boat out into deeper waters, to widen the ‘lens’.

Do we ‘tolerate’ in our culture that which we decry in one setting and permit in another, and then wonder why things don’t get better?????

Why not go after the basic attitude wherever we find it and CONFRONT IT???? I’m Catholic and I can go into my own Church and be honest about what is happening in ALL the areas where abuse has occurred and discuss how it can be prevented, and beyond that, how we can examine our own selves for our attitudes about ‘looking away’ in areas where we are told ‘not here’ or ‘don’t go there’.

This is one of those years where a LOT of people are questioning how we got to the place where we are at now as a country. It’s not just about politics, or the media, or the Church anymore. It’s bigger than that. And compartmentalizing may make us more comfortable but I question if that reason is good enough anymore to ‘look away’ in one area, and be against misogyny in another. (?) I raise the question. I don’t have all the answers, folks.

@ okrapod:
I thought that’s where you might be headed. No, I’m not in the faith for ‘political’ reasons, no. It doesn’t work that way. Not in my faith, no.
We can vote according to our own consciences and we do. In 2012, 51% of Catholic voted Dem. and 49% for the Republican candidate . . . that is a fairly good example of how we don’t ‘cluster’ around one political party.

I question if that reason is good enough anymore to ‘look away’ in one area, and be against misogyny in another. (?)

Politics is a much broader topic. People make choices based on a whole lot of things, most of it has nothing to do with sex or misogyny. You are trying to link it all to not just politics but a specific political party and everybody in it! That is what I object to. That leads into a whole bunch of other topics like economics, like foreign policy, like what the role of government itself should actually be, that are not relevant to this thread. Unless you want to talk about the kind of government that believes it should, like certain churches, be involved in every aspect of your life.

‘gender’ is now a topic in play in our country big time as we move towards November;
so maybe the ‘attitude’ in certain religious circles is merely a reflection of what half the voters in our country have been brought up to ‘respect’ (or disrespect)

What motives are you speaking of, and what groups are you implying that I attribute those motives to?
Take another look at what I wrote and don’t assume you ‘know my mind’ and can speak for me.

I read what you wrote. I am responding to it. When you speak of respect and attitude linked to politics, then linked it to why people in religious circles act as they do, you weren’t speaking of motives? Come on.

Do we ‘tolerate’ in our culture that which we decry in one setting and permit in another, and then wonder why things don’t get better?????

But things are better in the legal and equality of opportunity sense. What are we comparing it to?

Equality of opportunity always brings with it both evil and good in whatever category we are discussing. Females with power are not automatically better than males with power because they are female. Males are not automatically misogynist because they point out wrong doing by powerful females. That is tokenism. that is the typical group think. That is not a wider lens but a narrow one.

Even their hatred of the word ‘egalitarian’ tells me something. The definition of the actual word is “of, relating to, or believing in the principle that all people are equal and deserve equal rights and opportunities.”

…. and IF the women are considering ‘stepping out of line’, there are plenty of people like Piper who have some advice for them in order to help them NOT to antagonize or upset men

The same Piper who gets “the vapors” like a Victorian ingénue (though with fluttering hands instead of clutching pearls or fainting onto a fainting couch) when he is in the presence of “Muscular Women”? Need I say more?

@ Lea:
I’m not criticizing the choices a person makes as to what they support in one area and what they don’t support in another area. But I am asking folks to think about these choices in the light of a wider context if they can see the wisdom of doing that.

We all have to make conflicted decisions, and the process is neither easy, nor comfortable. We do the best we can. The wider context gives us more to think about and weigh, yes; but it also provides us with a chance for a more integral and personal choice.

Equality of opportunity always brings with it both evil and good in whatever category we are discussing. Females with power are not automatically better than males with power because they are female. Males are not automatically misogynist because they point out wrong doing by powerful females.

This time, opportunists within that camp are more concerned with keeping the oligharcical establishment where they think they can keep a seat –even in the back benches.

NOBODY is as on-fire for keeping those on the bottom on the bottom than those who are second from the bottom.

Like poor white trash in the Jim Crow south, rank-and-file of the Third Klan, whose only thing to brag about was their white skin. And the Planters and Boss Hoggs and Imperial Wizards used and exploited them to keep themselves on top.

Even their hatred of the word ‘egalitarian’ tells me something. The definition of the actual word is “of, relating to, or believing in the principle that all people are equal and deserve equal rights and opportunities.”

I don’t even think they know what it means. It’s a pure snarl word of duckspeak, just like “COMMUNIST!” to a Bircher or “FASCIST IMPERIALIST CAPITALIST!” to a Communist or “COLLECTIVIST STATIST MOOCHER!” to an Objectivist.

Tree wrote:
Where is Young Dad? Why, he is leading his family courageously. He is walking three steps ahead of them, carrying his travel coffee mug. When he was put on the elder board this past year, I knew I wasn’t the only one who had noticed the courageous way he leads his family.
God forgive us our foolish ways. I just hope this isn’t a description of a ‘quiverfull’ family scene, or that poor wife might end up as deranged as Andrea Yates . . . . that woman is being ‘led’ all right, right into hell on Earth.

To be fair, I want to say that this “Young Dad” is not the only picture of a comp dad I’ve seen, which is what made it so confusing to live in that culture. There *were* dads in our church who could be seen pulling a share of the load, like carrying in burdens, holding a fussy or active little one so a tired mom could actually listen to the sermon. (How I envied those other moms!) But then there were the others who didn’t seem to notice their wife’s struggles. Self-absorbed? Clueless? Unloving? (thinking of the “love your wives” verse that was paired with the “respect your husbands” that we regularly heard) Or maybe their definition of “love your wives” was limited to working hard to earn a living on a single income so the wife could stay home as she was “biblically” commanded to.

Some husbands seemed to limit their role to just that, actually, leaving almost all the household upkeep and car maintenance to the wife, in addition to the cooking, cleaning, child care, and homeschooling. And yet, being the sole source of income, with all that entails (everything hangs on you — the roof over your heads, the food on the table, the medical bills, transportation expenses — and if you hate your job, too bad. Can’t afford to quit. Hopefully you won’t get laid off or fired), is also stressful.

Regarding lazy spouses: I know I’ve heard complaints in two-income families about women going out to work and then coming home and doing all the housework, so it’s not limited to comp families. (I also knew a couple where the husband worked all day and then came home and did the housework, too, because his wife couldn’t seem to cope.) The families I’ve seen, from the outside at least, that seem to work best, is where everyone pitches in. But it’s got to be an attitude thing, because if it happens only because of nagging on the part of the more responsible partner (whether male or female), it’s just as exhausting and discouraging to live with.

i dunno…. i have zero tolerance for churchtalk, churchface, church body language, church social rules, church hypo-sexuality, church hyper-sexuality, church intolerance, church hypocrisy, church blindness to their own hypocrisy, church elitism, church politics, church format, church music, church decor, ….

Muff Potter wrote:
Nancy2 wrote:
These “authentic manhood” flakes could learn some lessons from you.
They’re unteachable. Ignorance is fixable, stupid doesn’t wanna.
Same with “I Can Do No Wrong” Righteousness.

Tell me about it! Have just exited an extended online debate with someone from the former church who could not believe our troubles were not because of our own sin — somehow the bullying that made our kids’ lives miserable was their own fault. In his view, it couldn’t be possible that the elders wanted to deal with our kids “just because” they wanted to go to a different church. No, there had to be some kind of terrible sin in their life that made the elders want to deal with them, and they wanted to leave and go to another, more tolerant church that wouldn’t confront their sin.

No, they just wanted to go to another church where they wouldn’t be bullied!

But this guy just couldn’t grasp that. It had to be their fault. It simply could not be the fault of the church or elders or elders’ bullying kids.

I’ll never forget a friend in high school who saw someone in the hall and was all ‘hey sugar/hugs /love you /mwah’ an then when she left said ‘I can’t stand her’. I have never been like that. If I can’t stand you, you’ll know it. I’ll be polite, mostly, but that’s it.

Lea wrote:
I just noticed he said they are equal before God…God is not the one who is abusing. If they are not equal to men, what good is equal to God as concerns abuse.
Pie in the Sky when you Die?
(Christianity lost a LOT when Fluffy Cloud Heaven replaced Resurrection of the Body and the Kingdom of God…)

Nope. The really rabid ones don’t even give women that. Women (in their eyes) will be eternally subordinate, even in heaven.

Well, I guess in a sense they’re in good company with Christ, the Eternally Subordinate Son.

elastigirl wrote:
churchface
Hee! I like this one.
I’ll never forget a friend in high school who saw someone in the hall and was all ‘hey sugar/hugs /love you /mwah’ an then when she left said ‘I can’t stand her’. I have never been like that. If I can’t stand you, you’ll know it. I’ll be polite, mostly, but that’s it.

I think I went to church with her! As a matter of fact, she was an elder’s wife.

i think it has something to do with rulesrulesrules and the concept of God.

generates ultimate fear and paranoia, which in turn stunts the free exercise of the creative mind. the creative, sensing, feeling mind is short-circuited if not turned off altogether. which leaves the only alternative of simply copying what others are doing. and what others are doing is simply responding to the stimulus of the loudest voices with the popular brand name.

To be fair, I want to say that this “Young Dad” is not the only picture of a comp dad I’ve seen, which is what made it so confusing to live in that culture. There *were* dads in our church who could be seen pulling a share of the load,

just to clarify… by “confusing” I was talking about those of us whose husbands were more like the apparently carefree “Young Dad” in the anecdote. We saw dads who didn’t seem to think that taking care of the children was limited to discipline at church, but carrying a car seat or holding two kids on his lap or bouncing a fussy baby in the back of the church, and we wondered — what were we doing wrong? We were told that the better we were at respecting our husbands, the more we’d be encouraging them to Christlikeness. Or something like that. It wasn’t necessarily spoken from the pulpit, but it was certainly ingrained in the culture. It was *our* fault (the wives and mothers) if we were overburdened.

Because, you know, Christ said his yoke is easy and his burden is light.

It was our fault. We just weren’t getting something right. We were doing something wrong. The formula is always right. You just have to do it right.

“We were told that the better we were at respecting our husbands, the more we’d be encouraging them to Christlikeness. Or something like that. …. It was *our* fault (the wives and mothers) if we were overburdened.”
++++++++++++++

what co-dependent bullsht imposed on you all. crickets of all kinds to the persons and bedrooms of those who required this of you.

a discussion, below, on interdependent vs co-dependent that i thought was helpful. (co-dependency is a little murky to me.)

I got a lot of different responses to my statement regarding what people get out of church. Thanks to everyone for their insights.

Here’s the rub, a lot of churches aren’t ok. Sometimes it takes going beyond even the website and Sunday sermons. I think it was “Eagle” who suggested looking in the church library. “Friend” has found a good church and good for them, there is always hope.
I think that we need to find a balance between faith and skepticism. It’s a balance that Dee & Deb appear to have.

I would say I am more on the skeptic side – I don’t have the surety that God even exists, let alone if he had a son or not. That’s probably why I find myself genuinely perplexed by the religion excercise. The irony is that I was a believer early in life, I just can’t seem to find my way back to that place
.
What I can say is that this blog provides a lot of food for thought.

Dee – take care of yourself as you go through your challenges. All the best.

@ refugee:
“We were told that the better we were at respecting our husbands, the more we’d be encouraging them to Christlikeness. Or something like that. …. It was *our* fault (the wives and mothers) if we were overburdened.”
++++++++++++++
what co-dependent bullsht imposed on you all. crickets of all kinds to the persons and bedrooms of those who required this of you.
a discussion, below, on interdependent vs co-dependent that i thought was helpful. (co-dependency is a little murky to me.)https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolution-the-self/201412/codependent-or-simply-dependent-what-s-the-big-difference

Wow. Lots of triggers in that article. But good food for thought.

Thinking further, it is those dads (the ones I saw holding two kids on the lap during a sermon, so the wife could actually listen and even take notes) who defend our old church to me, who are staunch defenders of complementarianism. Because somehow it is not leading to conflict within their own families, but harmony.

Therefore, along with the fact that it is a “biblical injunction,” makes it applicable (mandatory?) for everyone.

Thinking further, it is those dads (the ones I saw holding two kids on the lap during a sermon, so the wife could actually listen and even take notes) who defend our old church to me, who are staunch defenders of complementarianism. Because somehow it is not leading to conflict within their own families, but harmony.

Comp works more or less ok when the men are truly loving their wives in a non-selfish/self seeking way, respecting them, listening to them, etc…The people who defend almost invariably claim that their marriages are like that. Great.

The problem is when things go wrong. They have no answer to abuse, beyond saying it shouldn’t happen or that they will somehow fix it. And sadly, some of them focus on this leading thing, which isn’t actually biblical, so much that they never get into the love, or what that love is actually supposed to look like. What would these comp churches look like if instead of preaching on authority and submission, they preached incessantly on how men should love their wives, respect them, not hurt them, and then launch into the beatitudes and the fruits of the spirit? IF nothing else, that kind of preaching would probably not hurt someone. The authority preaching just reinforces and corrupts men who listen to closely.

@ Jack:
Some of the most decent people I know are where you are. I worked for one of them many moons ago. He was fair, just, generous, humble, loyal, compassionate, reasonable, etc. I used to tease him that he would make a great ‘real’ Christian. :o)

It was our fault. We just weren’t getting something right. We were doing something wrong. The formula is always right. You just have to do it right.

And that’s why the elders in your church are never to blame. This same attitude extends to the church environment. If you leave it’s because you’re not up to snuff. You just couldn’t meet the church’s high standards. The deficiency is in YOU. Or so they will tell everyone.

Regarding lazy spouses: I know I’ve heard complaints in two-income families about women going out to work and then coming home and doing all the housework, so it’s not limited to comp families. (I also knew a couple where the husband worked all day and then came home and did the housework, too, because his wife couldn’t seem to cope.)

I’ve seen this play out in real life. The woman my son married turned out to be a real piece of work. He did indeed have to do everything (housework, cooking cleaning, laundry) after his long workdays.
They’re now divorced and my son is a single dad raising his three kids alone.
Lydia and Gram3 are right, laziness and “me-ism” are not confined to any one particular gender, regardless of what the extremists on both ends of the spectrum want you to sign onto.

Misogyny is the larger problem. Abuse is ONE way some have seen as a ‘reasonable’ response to women stepping over the line that SOME men have drawn for them.

Political ???? Theological?
or maybe something wider in the culture, an ancient tension which finds its way into all the places where power and control are up for grabs and playing the ‘gender card’ is now being re-examined closely as still morally acceptable to decent human beings.

Certainly, it is a trait of the fallen nature, pretty much evident worldwide and in all ages. What one would expect is for the church to be an oasis where things are different, because in Christ there is no male or female, only believer. One is sadly disappointed to see the same fallen motivations and paranoia setting misogyny down as not just culture, tradition or habit but as theology- as God’s way, God’s holy design. As a woman, that is the huge disappointment in the church.

They’re now divorced and my son is a single dad raising his three kids alone.

Blessings on your son and your grandchildren as he raises them. Too many women have found illegitimate power in victimhood. To be clear, I am not talking about real victims but about people who put on the mantle of victim falsely because it gives them real power over people to use and abuse people. That false victimhood diminishes those women (or men!) who are true victims of abusers.

“What would these comp churches look like if instead of preaching on authority and submission, they preached incessantly on how men should love their wives, respect them, not hurt them, and then launch into the beatitudes and the fruits of the spirit?”
++++++++++

certainly sounds better.

but i can’t shake the feeling that it reduces to me to a political being.

i’m no longer an individual, a human being. i’m a being whose existence is recognized because of my relationship to someone else. i’m the pink pawn, and my job is to receive the action of the blue pawn… for his sake, for the viability of the church’s sake, for the viability of the pastor’s sake, for the bible’s sake, for the glory of god’s sake.

i’d just love for someone to cut through all the religious red tape and say, ‘people, practice acts of kindness (random & otherwise) and senseless acts of beauty. meeting adjourned.’

There are two very interesting posts on “The Mortification of Spin”. One dated today by Carl Trueman and one dated yesterday by Todd Pruitt.

Those were totally depressing to read. I really hope the names get named of these racketeers and bullies. CBMW is trying to clean up their internet theological crime scene, but I do not think it will work. I imagine Denny Burk has disciples who will do the dirty work for him so that his hands remain clean. A *real* leader would expose his disciples doing such. They bring great shame on Jesus’ name regardless of how much they crow that they are all about “spreading the fame of Jesus’ name.” Sickening.

Leslie wrote:
“There are two very interesting posts on “The Mortification of Spin”. One dated today by Carl Trueman and one dated yesterday by Todd Pruitt.”

Gram3: “Those were totally depressing to read. I really hope the names get named of these racketeers and bullies. CBMW is trying to clean up their internet theological crime scene, but I do not think it will work. I imagine Denny Burk has disciples who will do the dirty work for him so that his hands remain clean”
++++++++++++++++++++++

He did indeed have to do everything (housework, cooking cleaning, laundry) after his long workdays.
They’re now divorced and my son is a single dad raising his three kids alone.

Hi MUFF,
sounds like your son really loved his children and did what he could to take care of them …. I’m glad they are with him now although it must be very, very difficult for him to do everything alone …. God bless him in his struggles.

Here’s the rub, a lot of churches aren’t ok. Sometimes it takes going beyond even the website and Sunday sermons. I think it was “Eagle” who suggested looking in the church library. “Friend” has found a good church and good for them, there is always hope.

I found a great one too, but once I dscovered them, I had to look carefully at their website and sermons and articles on the Internet to make sure everything was kosher.

My bank account has been enjoying a sabbatical from these self-important religious professionals for quite awhile. These overworked religious professionals have *no* problem asking for volunteer work from people who are also overworked and stressed in the real world where people who ask for sabbaticals are laughed out of the room or fired. Life is good inside the bubble.

i’m no longer an individual, a human being. i’m a being whose existence is recognized because of my relationship to someone else.

That’s true. I think it would be better than what they are saying, though.

Obviously we are all supposed to be loving god and loving each other. We know what love is. That’s the most important thing, according to jesus. It should probably get a little more headspace in church.

I found a great one too, but once I dscovered them, I had to look carefully at their website and sermons and articles on the Internet to make sure everything was kosher.

I basically gave up on finding a Baptist or non-denom church that fit, and ended up in a reformed church, which I don’t really believe. But I think it’s a good church in the things that matter, I guess?

There are two very interesting posts on “The Mortification of Spin”. One dated today by Carl Trueman and one dated yesterday by Todd Pruitt.

Whoa. How pathetic, from Carl’s article, that ‘such vile attacks are part of the culture’!! Do these people have no sense of propriety, manners or shame? Clearly not. They feed on each other and become rotten to the core when you challenge them.

What would these comp churches look like if instead of preaching on authority and submission, they preached incessantly on how men should love their wives, respect them, not hurt them, and then launch into the beatitudes and the fruits of the spirit?

Tell me about it! Have just exited an extended online debate with someone from the former church who could not believe our troubles were not because of our own sin — somehow the bullying that made our kids’ lives miserable was their own fault. In his view, it couldn’t be possible that the elders wanted to deal with our kids “just because” they wanted to go to a different church. No, there had to be some kind of terrible sin in their life that made the elders want to deal with them, and they wanted to leave and go to another, more tolerant church that wouldn’t confront their sin.
No, they just wanted to go to another church where they wouldn’t be bullied!
But this guy just couldn’t grasp that. It had to be their fault. It simply could not be the fault of the church or elders or elders’ bullying kids.

Refugee, I am so sorry that your kids went through this and that as their parent, you have to endure the character assassination in addition to the harm done by the bullying.

The cognitive dissonance that makes it so hard for people to believe that their pastors/leaders would lie, unrepentantly sin, collude, etc. makes things twice as bad for any victims. The abusers get the benefit of the doubt and the victims get re-victimized.

I wish your average church goer knew the prevalence of narcissism in the pulpit and the typical lying that goes along with it. They might not be so sllllloooooow to consider the possibility.

“Obviously we are all supposed to be loving god and loving each other. We know what love is.”
+++++++++++

well, i think you & I do, as well as the TWW community, I would think.

i have my doubts about some theologians and the people who ingest their ideas (as if they were 5 hamburgers on an empty stomach, & weed to for recreation & to self-soothe). it’s like they’ve stared at the material for so long their brains have twisted inside out like a paper cup.

i think they’ve deprogrammed themselves or reprogrammed themselves into this weird belief system.

it’s like they’ve stared at the material for so long their brains have twisted inside out like a paper cup.

They look at the wrong things.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love takes no pleasure in evil, but rejoices in the truth.…It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails.

They would look at that list and the only thing they would see is the ‘endures all things’ and say women should endure abuse, because look! There it is!

Velour wrote:
I chose my screen name “Velour”, because our lovely blog queens Dee and Deb are sometimes called “Satin” (sic), “Daughters of Stan (sic)”. I decided to make myself into a fabric for the cause.
Oh, I wondered about your name, that is funny! A fabric for the cause

At my most recent 6-monthly check with the Forth Valley NHS Diabetes Squad (that’s not the formal departmental title, as you might perhaps have guessed), my 3-month average blood sugar level – and there’s an ingenious way to measure this – came back at around 6 mmol/l. This is not just within target; it’s within a standard deviation or so of what you’d expect from someone who isn’t diabetic. Whereas I’ve been diabetic for around 4 years; at the point of diagnosis, my levels were more than double that.

So, how do I do this? Well, it’s fundamentally a question of attitude. I don’t live with diabetes; it lives with me. I don’t know who first said that – I didn’t think of it myself – but I entirely agree with them. I have an almost obsessional aversion to out-of-range blood sugar measurements. By reading, asking, research and trial-and-error, I’ve developed a broad and deep understanding of what kinds of exercise do and don’t help. I’ve got my insulin dosages down to a fine art, again by trial and error. And here’s where the attitude really comes in. When I measure my blood glucose, and it’s high, I pretty much consider it a personal failure. And I don’t ignore it – I decide what to do differently about it. And if it doesn’t work, I don’t ignore that either – I try something else, until it does. When I need to ask advice, I don’t look for someone who’ll tell me it’s not my fault, I look for someone who knows what they’re talking about (fortunately, the Forth Valley Squad are pretty knowledgeable, and always available to field questions). So, sure, I take the positives from every little failure and grow from them – but first I have to accept failure.

That’s how you control Type 1 diabetes. It’s also how you control abuse in a church. Not by pretending it doesn’t happen and that, when it does, it didn’t really happen and it’s someone else’s fault anyway. Nor by casually hiring paedophiles and pretending your doctrine will protect you. But by ruthlessly forcing yourself to face up to the evidence when it tells you something you didn’t want it to.

That’s my own story. Many other Wartburgers could tell a better one. Preventing abuse isn’t impossible.

@ elastigirl:
Friend is from a mainline denom that would, imo, work for you – depending on the congregation. In the meantime, going to Mass at your local parish church sounds like a plan.

Thanks for jumping in, numo, and greetings to elastigirl.

I have at times gone to Mass at Roman Catholic churches, benefited from the liturgy, and experienced God’s presence. I wish that non-Catholics were still permitted to receive Communion in RC churches, but that would not stop me from going back. Of course, the Roman Catholic Church is still struggling with the huge problem of sexual abuse, and that will stop a lot of people from thinking about going. You might want to evaluate your local archdiocese’s actions in recent years.

But I think most on TWW will agree that there are no litmus tests. Some people persist in slugging it out at churches that they hope will improve. Some people can’t, or won’t, take it anymore. If God is everywhere, and if we have something like free will and sound judgment, I think we have the right to worship wherever we find God.

Jesus said, “See, I am sending you out like sheep into the midst of wolves; so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves” (Matthew 10:16). The passage foretells persecution of the Disciples, but I think it applies also to our own discernment as we just try to find a safe, sound place to sit with others on Sunday morning.

CBMW is trying to clean up their internet theological crime scene, but I do not think it will work. I imagine Denny Burk has disciples who will do the dirty work for him so that his hands remain clean”

PLAUSIBLE DENIABILITY.
Everyone fall on your swords so the Big Dog is not exposed/shamed.

Good post, Nick, about controlling diabetes…and also the issues in abusive churches.
I liked the part about attitude.

I did something to my foot and it’s swollen. So I have a compress of apple cider vinegar on it. It seems to be helping. I thought what you did…first I started to beat myself up, and then I changed gears and thought, “OK, I’ll have to figure this out and try different things until it improves.”

@ Jack:
Friend and I are not from evangelical backgrounds (e are both from liturgical churches), though I spent many years in the evangelical wilderness.

At any rate, while there are certain flaws in Friend’s denom and mine as well, it’s just… different. Very hard to explain in blog comments, unfortunately. Sometimes you have to go and just sit with things and see what’s happening.

One thing I know for sure: the denom in which I grew up lets people live their own lives, doesn’t treat them like stupid adult “children” who can’t be trusted to make decisions on their own. The kind of thinking and practices that so many of us have encountered (me, too) is rare to nonexistent, depending on where one looks. There might be *other* difficulties for those who think we are too “liberal,” but again, that varies from congregation to congregation. One parish might be something that makes you want to run away screaming, while another might feel like home. It depends, because both these denoms are pretty big tents, so to speak.

The cognitive dissonance that makes it so hard for people to believe that their pastors/leaders would lie, unrepentantly sin, collude, etc. makes things twice as bad for any victims. The abusers get the benefit of the doubt and the victims get re-victimized.

I wish your average church goer knew the prevalence of narcissism in the pulpit and the typical lying that goes along with it. They might not be so sllllloooooow to consider the possibility.

Most people do not get it until it happens to them.

And yet, it would be so simple to test, really, if anyone wanted to know the truth! Just start asking some questions, expressing some doubt. Play the devil’s advocate. And see what happens.

Velour wrote:
I did something to my foot and it’s swollen.
try icing the foot and keeping it elevated as much as you can

Thanks. I have the elevated part. I can’t stand the ice part. OK, I will do as you suggest and drag out the ice pack. (I don’t do ‘cold’ well. I’m a California native. If temp drops below 70 degrees, I put on a sweater.)

One thing I know for sure: the denom in which I grew up lets people live their own lives, doesn’t treat them like stupid adult “children” who can’t be trusted to make decisions on their own. The kind of thinking and practices that so many of us have encountered (me, too) is rare to nonexistent, depending on where one looks. There might be *other* difficulties for those who think we are too “liberal,” but again, that varies from congregation to congregation.

Things went generally well for me, a conservative Christian, at liberal churches. There always seemed to be a group of people who were like-minded conservatives with whom you could meet, they always seemed to congregate to the same Bible studies and meetings, and there always was a live-and-let-live attitude from the other parishioners and the pulpit (even though we might not have believed like most others the liberal church, we were allowed in a spirit of tolerance to practice our faith), as well as a refreshingly humble attitude from the pulpit (have never run into a malignant narcissist in a liberal pulpit. Am sure they exist, but never saw one) and a spirit of community and mutual submission. Can’t seem these days to walk into an evangelical church without being preached at from the pulpit by one whom for all the world seems to have no clue as to whom the one he’s allegedly preaching about really is.

@ Velour:
you can ice periodically, and remove the pack when it gets TOO cold . . . just try to do what you can and it will help to bring the swelling down (I hope)

if you don’t feel like dragging out the ice pack, then go to your freezer and get a bag of frozen veggies (peas work well) and use the bag like an ice pack …. it saves time and I know you are hurting, so this might be a better idea

take some pain meds (aspirin, whatever) and that also might help and YES, WE will pray for you who takes such faithful care of all of our prayer needs so well 🙂

My bank account has been enjoying a sabbatical from these self-important religious professionals for quite awhile. These overworked religious professionals have *no* problem asking for volunteer work from people who are also overworked and stressed in the real world where people who ask for sabbaticals are laughed out of the room or fired. Life is good inside the bubble.

I did something to my foot and it’s swollen. So I have a compress of apple cider vinegar on it. It seems to be helping. I thought what you did…first I started to beat myself up, and then I changed gears and thought, “OK, I’ll have to figure this out and try different things until it improves.”

There are two very interesting posts on “The Mortification of Spin”. One dated today by Carl Trueman and one dated yesterday by Todd Pruitt.

Thing that seems inexplicable is Todd’s post about how he took his critique down, he spoke about being in “hot water”, referred to those in power being a “racket”, all friends, willing to take down any opposition, he even made Godfather references. If he can be that blunt about those people on a public forum, why in the world would he take down his critique of Denny Burk? So he’s afraid to leave it up, as he claims he doesn’t have thick skin, but not afraid to absolutely lambast the ones who compelled him to do it? I don’t get this. Not that I doubt him, he sounds sincere, but I’d think if you were afraid of criticism, after writing what he posted yesterday, why oh why wouldn’t you be afraid of even more? I guess the neocalvinist world is an enigma to me.

And to consider the possibility that what he was reading about Trueman’s Mahaney episode was *not* necessarily an attack. I am a Trueman fangirl, but I was disappointed in the position he took on Mahaney’s fitness. I think it was an incorrect decision *and* I can understand why someone with a Presbyterian mindset might decide the issue on narrow grounds.

I wish that Todd and Carl would both consider that possibility, because that might lead to greater understanding all around. It is very hard to do that, especially when the issue hits so close to home. Pointing the finger at myself…

Yes, I don’t get that part either. If his criticism of Burk is legitimate (and I think it is) then leave it up and let people decide for themselves. IMO, taking down a post does not make it disappear. It does not increase clarity on the issues, and it does increase the noise in the discussion.

@ Gram3:
Denny Burk has shut down his ‘comments’ section on most of his latest posts. So, he either has no time to ‘moderate’ comments OR he just doesn’t want to have incoming criticism now that he is Prez over at CBMW. I don’t think he is a petty person, but taking on that new position likely has affected him somewhat. Maybe he just needs a bit of time-out to adjust to the new gig. ?

Not that I doubt him, he sounds sincere, but I’d think if you were afraid of criticism, after writing what he posted yesterday, why oh why wouldn’t you be afraid of even more?

Speculating is one of my favorite hobbies. I think it is somewhat likely that he received a credible offer he could not refuse because, if he refused it, he might find himself facing some disciplinary action. That’s my working hypothesis. Presbyterians can go to the mattresses just like Baptists. With Roberts Rules, of course. Or is it Robert’s? I need a ruling from the chair…

So, he either has no time to ‘moderate’ comments OR he just doesn’t want to have incoming criticism now that he is Prez over at CBMW

I imagine he and his interns are pretty busy scrubbing the CBMW website of inconvenient articles on ESS and Soap Bubbles and Sanctified Testosterone and such. And also trying to come up with a plausible grounding for Danvers now that ESS is off the table.

@ Law Prof:
I think there is also a clue lurking in “they are all friends with one another.” There is one Presbyterian among the T4g quartet. When the ESS thing blew up, I said to watch what Ligon Duncan says and does. We shall see what cover he provides for the others with the PCA study committee report. Because the conclusion has already been written, in my humble, female opinion.

Because Denny’s friends are Duncan’s friends who are Presbyterian. Once you get past the idea that the T4g guys really care about Presbyterian or Baptist doctrines all that much, it is easier to see that they really are an amalgamation with a totally different agenda. IMO and based on what we have observed, Big Eva (as Trueman calls it) or the Gospel Glitterati (as I call it) really only want to promote their own importance. And there is nothing about Jesus or the real Gospel in that.

And may the Lord spare him from the divorce shamers. Muff’s son has rescued those innocent children. People need to be aware that it is very, very difficult for a dad to rescue children from an abusive mother. Moms can get away with things that would land a dad in jail. I could never be a pediatrician or the like and see what they see. Some people who should know better cannot face the fact that a mother would do the things that some mothers do. Just like some people cannot face the fact that some pastors do what some pastors do, so they turn a blind eye or rationalize it away. Because she’s the mother! Because he’s our pastor! So, Muff’s son faced down some tough odds and got the kids out. Well done, Muff’s son.

Law Prof wrote:
Not that I doubt him, he sounds sincere, but I’d think if you were afraid of criticism, after writing what he posted yesterday, why oh why wouldn’t you be afraid of even more?
Speculating is one of my favorite hobbies. I think it is somewhat likely that he received a credible offer he could not refuse because, if he refused it, he might find himself facing some disciplinary action. That’s my working hypothesis. Presbyterians can go to the mattresses just like Baptists. With Roberts Rules, of course. Or is it Robert’s? I need a ruling from the chair…

I get that, but they’re willing to destroy him over the critique, but not willing to destroy him for basically calling them a bunch of mafioso? Try and help me make sense of this.

Burk’s foremost task right now is to re-write the theological and practical history of CBMW. He has problems with ESS and with Spousal abuse. Right out of the chute he put up articles about abuse and about how ESS is not necessary in order to support Danvers. Danvers is the Ten Commandments, and if you touch the Danvers Mountain, you die.

TThe purpose, IMO, of putting Burk back at CBMW is to divorce CBMW from Owen BHLH and Bruce Ware. Bruce Ware has way too much baggage due to his remarks at Denton Bible Church and ESS. Owen is Ware’s son-in-law. CBMW has given up on ESS because they have been refuted by trinitarian scholars from many traditions. But Todd Pruitt pointed out that Denny has himself promoted ESS in the JBMW. See also Rachel Miller’s takedown of the attempted revision of history at CBMW/SBTS regarding ESS.

So, Pruitt is unmasking the new narrative they are trying to push as the Big Tent Trinitarians who *NEVER EVER EVER* insisted that ESS was “always the orthodox position of the Church” whenever anyone questioned them on it. Pruitt and Trueman and Byrd and Miller are obstructing the advance of that narrative, and without that narrative, CBMW is ugly black toast. And there are a lot of legacies tied up with CBMW.

Velour wrote:
I did something to my foot and it’s swollen
Been there, done that. An epsom salt bath always helps me. I dump the whole bag in the tub and soak. Relief. It pulls the pain out and brings down the swelling.

@ Law Prof:
Neglected the main point of your question. IMO, the Syndicate does not care what anyone calls them. What they have not been able to endure, however, is facts and analysis and questions. Pruitt, with his mafioso remarks, is merely stating what Trueman has been saying for years about the Gospel Glitterati. They tried to tame Trueman at one of the T4g events (2012?) but that did not work.

When Pruitt says “hot water” I think he must be talking about disciplinary action which might affect his credentials.

Probably because it wasn’t ‘Scriptural’ enough for him? It didn’t line up with a ‘Biblical world view’?

That is the story, which Moore published in a tract that is given out to all new students. Of course, everyone in the school understood that it was a religious excuse to cover the fact that the school simply couldn’t afford to maintain accreditation.

Christiane wrote:
So, he either has no time to ‘moderate’ comments OR he just doesn’t want to have incoming criticism now that he is Prez over at CBMW
I imagine he and his interns are pretty busy scrubbing the CBMW website of inconvenient articles on ESS and Soap Bubbles and Sanctified Testosterone and such. And also trying to come up with a plausible grounding for Danvers now that ESS is off the table.

If you’re over there and see anything…save it on The WayBack Machine.https://archive.org/web/ [see the box on the right side of the screen when you’re on the website]

People here advised me that my former abusive church – Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley – would be scrubbing the internet and to start archiving pages on the Wayback Machine website and to take screen shots. That was good advice and it turned out to be true.

I recently emailed an elder and asked for a full financial refund of everything I ever gave them and for them since they lied to me about what they were about and I would have never become a member, or given money, had I known the truth. I also asked them to pay for an Italian cross to be sent to me, since the senior pastor (Cliff) and one of his women friends took “offense” to an Italian cross I had hanging in my living room. Rather the hateful woman did — she’s a former Catholic without a shred of boundaries or good manners (the kind of woman who runs her mouth and has a dumb opinion to share about everything). She gave me a lecture about ‘false idols’ for a beautiful piece of Italian art on my living room wall, my birthday gift, cost hundreds of dollars, had it for years and loved it.

I asked the senior pastor how to deal with her, since he knew her for years. He took her side, said he would be offended by it too, that I shouldn’t have it, blah, blah, blah. Under enormous pressure from him, I got rid of my own birthday gift in my own home!

I never walked in to their homes and conducted myself with that kind of breathtaking self-centeredness and uncouth behavior. I think they should each line up their favorite birthday gifts, most expensive, hundreds of dollars, stuff they like — and I’ll chose which one they each have to get rid of.

Bunch of nutcases. I wished I walked out then of that…gulag. It’s not a church.

I also asked in my email for the church to refund the good doctor whom they excommunicated and his wife their money, all of the nice books and DVDs he bought for the church lending library, and paying for the senior pastor to join him on a trip to meet the Rev. Billy Graham a few years ago at his log cabin home in North Carolina. The doctor and his wife accused the pastors/elders of lying about them, abusing them.

And I asked for a full refund for the woman that was our first church discipline case, because she thought they were nuts and left for a saner church.

I looked at this and read the two articles on the Mortification pf Spin. It’s good to see people within the movement question it and note the rotten fruit (the bullying, the attacks, etc). I particularly like the comment on how certain beliefs have been used to justify domestic abuse.

I copied this off of Todd Pruitt’s facebook page. I will freely admit I don’t know what this quote means. Can anyone explain it?

“Denny Burke on Philippians 2: “Paul argues here that in his pre-incarnate state, Christ existed as *theos*. Yet in this pre-incarnate existence, Christ Jesus did not seek to be like *theos* in every respect.”. It’s caused a stir in the comments.

Denny Burke on Philippians 2: “Paul argues here that in his pre-incarnate state, Christ existed as *theos*. Yet in this pre-incarnate existence, Christ Jesus did not seek to be like *theos* in every respect.”. It’s caused a stir in the comments.

Law Prof wrote:
Not that I doubt him, he sounds sincere, but I’d think if you were afraid of criticism, after writing what he posted yesterday, why oh why wouldn’t you be afraid of even more?
Speculating is one of my favorite hobbies. I think it is somewhat likely that he received a credible offer he could not refuse because, if he refused it, he might find himself facing some disciplinary action. That’s my working hypothesis. Presbyterians can go to the mattresses just like Baptists. With Roberts Rules, of course. Or is it Robert’s? I need a ruling from the chair…

I get that, but they’re willing to destroy him over the critique, but not willing to destroy him for basically calling them a bunch of mafioso? Try and help me make sense of this.

He went from criticizing a specific person by name to being shadowy and vague and calling burk a great gentleman.

Denny Burke on Philippians 2: “Paul argues here that in his pre-incarnate state, Christ existed as *theos*. Yet in this pre-incarnate existence, Christ Jesus did not seek to be like *theos* in every respect.”.

Denny’s ‘alternative view’ section mentions this:
” ‘Equality with God’ and
‘form of God’ might not be two
ways of referring to the same thing. ”

I was shocked to read that, as the implication is not in the realm of orthodox Christianity at all. Of course, I’m from a different tradition, but even then, the statement seems totally shocking.

I have often left on Denny’s comment section the caveat, “si comprendo, non est Deus” but just as often it was removed by ‘moderation’. Well, I tried to help at least. (sigh)

So he’s afraid to leave it up, as he claims he doesn’t have thick skin, but not afraid to absolutely lambast the ones who compelled him to do it? I don’t get this. Not that I doubt him, he sounds sincere, but I’d think if you were afraid of criticism, after writing what he posted yesterday, why oh why wouldn’t you be afraid of even more? I guess the neocalvinist world is an enigma to me.

If you’re over there and see anything…save it on The WayBack Machine.https://archive.org/web/ [see the box on the right side of the screen when you’re on the website]

People here advised me that my former abusive church – Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley – would be scrubbing the internet and to start archiving pages on the Wayback Machine website and to take screen shots. That was good advice and it turned out to be true.

I second this excellent advice. Anyone who is familiar with the site and the articles.

Leslie wrote:
There are two very interesting posts on “The Mortification of Spin”. One dated today by Carl Trueman and one dated yesterday by Todd Pruitt.
Thing that seems inexplicable is Todd’s post about how he took his critique down, he spoke about being in “hot water”, referred to those in power being a “racket”, all friends, willing to take down any opposition, he even made Godfather references. If he can be that blunt about those people on a public forum, why in the world would he take down his critique of Denny Burk? So he’s afraid to leave it up, as he claims he doesn’t have thick skin, but not afraid to absolutely lambast the ones who compelled him to do it? I don’t get this. Not that I doubt him, he sounds sincere, but I’d think if you were afraid of criticism, after writing what he posted yesterday, why oh why wouldn’t you be afraid of even more? I guess the neocalvinist world is an enigma to me.

Yes it is to me, too. Trueman has “critiqued” the celebrity Christian world without ever mentioning his part in propping it up for Mahaney. It’s like that did not happen or we don’t have all the facts yet we are “slanderers” for bringing it up, according to Pruitt.

I spent years around cowardly “pastors” like this in the seeker world. Of course he took it down. He threw Aimee under his bus by doing so, too, whether she admits it or not. So much for “comp” protection of women. It’s how these guys roll if they even want to keep their place…whatever that is. I have seen how the pressure works. It’s subtle but the message is clear. Not going along is a career killer. And so much of Christianity is basically a career climb these days. Being known. Having followers.

You know what I find confusing about this? They put higher standards on pew sitters that they themselves are not willing to model yet they make a living teaching Christ. I just don’t have the patience or understanding with it anymore.

And when Truman was tapped to prop up Mahaney–it was outside the Presbyterian ecclesiastical court world. Seems to me that would have caused him to ask even more questions about his “narrow” task.

Gram3 wrote:
I think it is somewhat likely that he received a credible offer he could not refuse because, if he refused it, he might find himself facing some disciplinary action.
What? Todd is Presbyterian but isn’t Burke Baptist? Why do you think Todd might face disciplinary action?

The joke here is that SBTS is the “real” Presbyterian seminary in town. I think the relationships (money, promotion) are so intertwined through para church orgs like TGC, T$G, CBMW, Crossway, LifeWay and seminaries that they affect careers across any denominational protections.

Lydia wrote:
Seems to me that would have caused him to ask even more questions about his “narrow” task.
Thinking out loud here . . . Do you think Truman was asked to help out with the Mahaney issue by “their” common friend Duncan? Isn’t Duncan part of T4G?

I have no idea. Trueman won’t tell people how it came about or even if he regrets being a part of it. Which I find telling and the reason he has no credibility with me even if I agree with his vague critiquing posts.

Leslie wrote:
Todd Pruitt’s Facebook page is worth checking out
I looked at this and read the two articles on the Mortification pf Spin. It’s good to see people within the movement question it and note the rotten fruit (the bullying, the attacks, etc). I particularly like the comment on how certain beliefs have been used to justify domestic abuse.
I copied this off of Todd Pruitt’s facebook page. I will freely admit I don’t know what this quote means. Can anyone explain it?
“Denny Burke on Philippians 2: “Paul argues here that in his pre-incarnate state, Christ existed as *theos*. Yet in this pre-incarnate existence, Christ Jesus did not seek to be like *theos* in every respect.”. It’s caused a stir in the comments.

It is Burk arguing a non point to try and make the Incarnate Christ into a lesser God in eternity past and future. That last part is very important. (Note they hardly ever mention the Holy Spirit) It’s the old salesman trick…get people agreeing. (I heard Burk preach on this years back. He was struggling to emulate Ware)

He mangles Phil 2. In fact, Phil 2 tells a different story. The Theos gave up Glory Himself and humbled Himself. Some translation use “grasp” like the ESV which alludes to Jesus Christ was not in control at all. The NIV says:

6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

The NIV seems to accept equality within the Trinity but Jesus did not use it. “He made Himself….”

They twisted a lot of proof texts to make Jesus a lesser God. Just think, 1 Corinthians 11 was their main go to passage to prove ESS! That tells most of what we need to know about that ridiculous teaching.

If you don’t name names, you cannot be accused of breaking the 9th commandment. That is what I think Pruitt is getting at. I think someone told him they were going to bring charges against him. Serious stuff if you are ordained.

And when Truman was tapped to prop up Mahaney–it was outside the Presbyterian ecclesiastical court world. Seems to me that would have caused him to ask even more questions about his “narrow” task.
</blockquote
That is a good point. I have wondered since it happened why Trueman agreed to take that task on because I cannot see an upside from his POV either for himself or for the church. And he does consider himself a churchman, from what I've read. Doesn't make sense.

And how long will it be before someone realizes that without ESS, the assumption that kephale means authority over no longer makes sense in 1 Corinthians 11? They may actually be forced to acknowledge Paul’s own conclusion to his own argument instead of trying to make Paul say what he never said. Nah, that’s not going to happen.

siteseer wrote:
And no names are named, so…
If you don’t name names, you cannot be accused of breaking the 9th commandment. That is what I think Pruitt is getting at. I think someone told him they were going to bring charges against him. Serious stuff if you are ordained.

Here is the irony of all this: Denny Burk can write and teach ESS/EFS but if Burk says publicly it is not EFS/ESS he is writing or preaching, that is to be the end of it.

From then on, if you dare say it IS ESS and why, then you are to be disciplined, shunned, booted off blogs, etc, etc by his protectors. I saw this exact thing for years in that movement over all sorts of things doctrinal and behavioral. It is extremely Orwellian.

These are guys that if they preach that it is raining on a sunny day you had best agree it is raining on a sunny day. That is how it works in their world. They are not to be questioned or second guessed. Todd was to accept Burks explanation and drop it.

Mohler knows he has a real problem on this one and will pull in every chit to shut it down from “Reformed” sources. He ignores the non Calvinists in the SBC who have brought it up. He swats them away like annoying flies or just makes a call and ruins them.

“Perhaps it is because I am obtuse but after reading Denny’s article several times I still cannot quite decipher his theology beyond his clear denial of the Son’s equality with the Father. In this he argues along with Grudem and Ware for an eternal state of subordination of the Son to the Father within the Godhead.”
——————

Todd describes the motives for Mort. of Spin’s pushback on ESS, as has been promoted at CBMW, the 2nd of which is:

2) It is damaging to the church. The theology of the eternal subordination of the Son (ESS/EFS) is found in lay-friendly theology books, marriage books, books for women, and even books for children. In the last two week I have heard from two women in my church who have spotted the errors in a book by a woman closely connected to CBMW. She is, I am sure, a fine woman who loves Jesus. But understandably she gets her theology from those theologians who lead the efforts at CBMW. As such she has drunk deeply from the EFS fountain and imbibed its errors. Now it is being passed along to others.

So once again pastors like me have to clean out the resources recommended to the women in our churches. We have to risk alienating wonderful people who grew fond of certain books and writers. We have to correct errant notions of the Trinity and complementarianism advanced in supposedly trustworthy resources. All this because a parachurch organization has chosen to teach a brand of trinitarianism which finds precious little support among evangelical systematic theologians and church historians. Worst of all, it finds no support in God’s Word. I hope CBMW will once and for all refute ESS/EFS. And I hope they will do so with the same vigor with which they have promoted it.

@ elastigirl:
So, this expresses what is thought to be the core of Denny’s departure from orthodoxy:

“Burk states his purpose near the front of the article:
My purpose here is to highlight the grammatical item in this verse and to briefly note its potential theological impact on our understanding of intratrinitarian relations. (emphasis mine)
He understands that his conclusion will have an impact upon the way the relations within the Trinity are to be understood.

His conclusion will surprise many:
The theological result is that “form of God” and “equality with God” should not be regarded as synonymous but as phrases with distinct meanings. Therefore, in Paul’s Christology “form of God” is something that Jesus possessed by virtue of his deity, while “equality with God” is not. In fact, “equality with God” is best understood as a role that Jesus refused to pursue so that he could pursue his redemptive work in the incarnation. (p. 33)”

Wow . . . that so goes against the ancient Councils which held that Our Lord Jesus Christ was BOTH ‘fully God’ AND ‘fully Man’

He ignores the non Calvinists in the SBC who have brought it up. He swats them away like annoying flies or just makes a call and ruins them.

It will be up to us non-connected peons to expose this. I’ve sent my penal substitution questions to about a dozen redormed ministries. A few have responded. None will answer the questions. But I am hoping they will make a difference anyway. I can get away with doing this because they have no leverage over me because I am not a paid minister. I’m not even an elder.

@ Christiane:
But you can see how his tortured erroneous explanation lines up with comp doctrine. Yet, he will insist he is affirming equality in the Trinity. This is why I think these guys are total deceivers.

Well, of course they will not answer your questions, impudent questioner. You make a good point that they have no leverage over us. The real question for a lot of young (and some older) pastors is: Why do you turn a blind eye to what is going on? Dissidents get disappeared, metaphorically. They do not want to teach. They want us to obey what they say, and they don’t particularly care whether there is a textual reason for what they say.

A lot of complementarians are in denial about the link between their gender teachings and abuse of girls and women.

A few months ago, Tim Challies went so far in his review of Ruth Tucker’s book (her book about how gender complementarianism played a role in the abuse of her by her last husband) to tell other complementarians not to bother reading that book.

Yet other complementarians scream and yell on other blogs and sites demanding hard proof in the form of stats and studies any time complementarianism is discussed in the context of abuse.

Not only does complementarianism give men prone to abuse an easy pass and ready-made justification for spousal abuse (or treating girls like trash), but their teachings set girls and women up to be tolerant of this mistreatment.

This (what I link to below) would fall under the umbrella of complementarian views and teachings, but some of your average complementarians would, at this juncture, like to say what the guy quoted in the post below is doing is “not true complementarianism.”

Oh, yes, it is. All complementarians cannot completely agree on what complementarianism is and how it should be practiced, but I bet you dollars to dough-nuts the pastor quoted below thinks of himself as a complementarian, or, he shares their interpretations of “male headship” to mean that the husband is a boss over the wife.

They realized that the men’s fraternity curriculum was very positively impacting young men, especially ones who had grown up with only single mothers raising them. their relationships with their dads were few and far between, and men’s fraternity showed them how to be a man.

I was discussing this on Julie Anne’s blog about two weeks ago.

I said over there, I don’t understand this odd obsession with some Christians thinking that boys need to be taught how to be men.

And secondly, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a similar Christian group cry and worry about girls raised by single fathers, and oh dear, how will those girls ever learn how to be women?

I’m also not seeing why they aren’t more concerned with helping kids become decent people, and maybe point them to Jesus Christ as an example? (As opposed to freaking out over gender-related issues, eg, how they will act as a man or woman)

People like Mary Kassian dismay me. She has written about how she has personally helped abused wives get out from dire situations…. yet she is still not doing anything to call the complementarian camp to account for their failure to do enought to teach male headship in a way that protects women from domestic abuse.

Not only that, but Kassian said this in a CT article published not too long ago:

….“I get really tired of people who argue that complementarianism leads to abuse or subservience of women. It mischaracterizes the complementarian position,” said Mary Kassian, women’s studies professor at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary…

He was taught and affirmed as the spiritual VIP of his family. they want us to believe this translates into protection and carrying the heavy load of responsibility.

I have seen the opposite in every comp church. Strange how it rarely works out that way unless the comps are operating as mutualist who wear the comp mask at church.

Women are constantly told that they just have not experienced the right type of comp man or that only her submission and prayers will make him a good one. IOW, Jesus Christ crucified and resurrected was not enough for the “Christian” husband.

That whole post was quotable, but I wanted to comment on the part I put in bold face.

For the most part, and certainly in the complementarian marriages I’ve seen in person, the husband’s “big responsibility” merely involves things like…

Being in control of the TV remote control, or the husband gets the final say if the married couple move across country or not.

If we’re talking about that kind of marriage, I fail to see how any of that is a heavy burden for a guy to carry.

My mom is a very shy, passive, “submissive” type of person, but that didn’t stop the abuse. There were occasions when my dad would claim that my mom didn’t rinse the dishes properly. He would throw a glass or a cup across the kitchen and hit her.

Exactly that.

A person who is unassertive and passive will either tend to attract abusers, exploiters, and assorted jerks, or, their passive, shy natures will keep them stuck in abusive relationships for a long time.

My mother was like that. Thankfully, my father was not physically abusive of her, but he could be somewhat emotionally abusive, in that, he would tease her until she cried, be too critical of her, etc.

My mother brought me up to think being passive and always sweet was proper behavior for girls/women (especially if one was Christian).

So, I went through life being a sweet, unassuming, passive person – which did attract bullies to me, consistently.

Not just men on dates, but I had female co-workers, bosses, friends, etc, take advantage of me too, in jobs, at school, and so on (getting me to do their work shifts for them on top of mine, etc.).

This stuff falls under the rubric of codependency – being passive and unassertive and so on.

Complementarianism encourages women and girls to think that being codependent is biblical and God’s will for females. It just keeps them stuck in harmful relationships or being on the receiving end of being exploited or used and abused.

Well of course the right type of comp man would treat them well. That would be because the man is a good man, not because he is a complementarian. Resorting to that argument is admitting the practice of complementarianism isn’t helpful.

It looks to me as though many of the guys who are laid-back and treat their wives well and like equals are egalitarian in practice and only complementarian in name.

There are a few well known complementarians who have noticed this and are dismayed by it, and even have tossed out getting rid of the word complementarianism altogether and just going with “patriarchy.”

I do too, but sadly I now see some of this Christian counseling stuff as a red flag. This is from the celebrate recovery website: “Celebrate Recovery is a biblical and balanced program that helps us overcome our hurts, hang-ups, and habits. It is based on the actual words of Jesus rather than psychological theory.”
What is wrong with psychological theory? Why are Christians so weird about this? Working in mental health, this just makes people sound like they are ditching anything that is actually proven to help to me.

I had clinical depression for many years, low self esteem, and I still deal with anxiety.

I used to try the spiritual only approach with those problems (read the Bible, pray etc), and it never stopped the depression, anxiety, and low self esteem.

One key thing is that these types of Christians don’t seem to realize is that the teachings of Jesus can be misunderstood or misapplied.

My mother meant well, she really did, but she always interpreted (mis-interpreted, I should say) the words of Jesus to mean that Jesus wants Christians (especially women and girls) to be doormats.

I had to un-learn that well into my adulthood, starting a few years ago. Most Christians teach that Jesus/ God/ the Bible teaches Christians (women in particular) to be little sweet doormats (be codependent).

I’ve not come across many Christian authors / psychologists / psychiatrists who speak out against this type of thinking.

They do exist, but they get drowned out by the paranoid Christians who are fearful of psychology and/or who take sola-scriptura to absurd lengths (trying to apply ‘Bible only’ views to mental health problems).

I mean…she murdered her children. I don’t think most people knew anything beyond that. All of this psychological break/husband/quiver stuff I only learned about recently.

I don’t know about the rest of the nation, but a lot of this information was in the local press at the time.

I used to live there when that story broke. I had to drive past Yates home every day on the way to my job there.

I had one co-worker who despised her for what she did to her kids, but I reminded him she was mentally out of it, and her family and in-laws knew and didn’t get her any help.

I’m all for holding people accountable when they do wrong, but the particulars in her case was such I don’t think she was fully culpable. I actually felt her husband and in-laws were partially to blame.

I’ve dealt with depression just about all my adult life. In my experience many people who don’t have problems with depression simply don’t understand those that do. The problem is when those people believe any problem can be solved by faith and assume positions of spiritual authority.

I understand. I had depression from childhood about into my late 30s. If I had a nickel for every Christian I heard on TV or in person or saw in a book tell me to just pray the depression away, or just read the Bible more, I’d be a multi-millionaire. (None of those spiritual approaches lifted the depression.)

Another thing I find really annoying verging on deeply insensitive and insulting are the Christians who depict depression (or grief from death of a love one) as being a form of “self pity.”

Years ago on the internet, before Facebook, when everyone was forwarding lame jokes around via e-mail, people were e-mailing a “Wife 2.0” joke, which sort of compared a wife to a computer’s operating system. I think there was also a similar joke about going from Girlfriend 1.0 to Wife 1.0 or something.

When Caesar Augustus started enforcing Roman laws against adultery, sex slaves became very popular among Romans of means. Because slaves were household appliances and you can’t commit adultery with a household appliance.

It’s sad how people come up with ways to skirt around morals or laws like that.

There are some Muslim groups that forbid extra-marital sex, which the men get around by taking temporary wives: they “marry” a woman for an hour or day, and after fooling around with her, they divorce. That is how they get around their religion’s prohibitions of extra-martial sex.

My sister’s ex-boyfriend’s mother had this happen to her once. She was sick (I forget with what), and another Christian told her God was punishing her with sickness. There are Christians who just assume if hardship comes your way, it MUST MEANT you surely did something to deserve it.

I had a Christian woman tell me once (after I confided in her I had depression), that I must “want” to be depressed.

No, can’t say as though I ever wanted it. I was desperate to be rid of it and saw shrinks for years, took medications for it, read books on how to get rid of it.

I see some Christians who think that way about mental illness – they think if you have something like depression that it’s a choice you are making, that you are choosing to have it.

Caroline Leaf does this thing every so often on her show. She bills herself as a Christian ‘neuro-scientist’ or some such, and she has a weekly TV show on TBN.

She will say every so often that people who have depression are choosing it. It’s such an insensitive comment and attitude. I can assure her that most people with depression are not “choosing” to be afflicted with it.

But then how can you smack them down with your Spiritual Superiority?
“It’s because YOU don’t spend Fifteen Minutes With The LOOOOOORD Each Morning!”
— Actual advice given me once, “Lord” actually pronounced with all-caps and multiple O’s

One other thing I wanted to say about that.

What is it with all the tele-evangelists I see who are into this morning stuff?

I’m always seeing them on TV talk about how you should take a cup off coffee and “spend some time in the Word with the LORD” – they always emphasize doing this stuff in the A.M.

I’m not a morning person, never have been.

I keep waiting for one of these guys to just once, advise Christians to pick any time of day they want, or choose the evening.

So many Christians are so cliched, they cannot even break away from the morning worship / “spend time with the Lord in the morning” (and it has to be with a cup of coffee!!) shtick.

She will say every so often that people who have depression are choosing it. It’s such an insensitive comment and attitude. I can assure her that most people with depression are not “choosing” to be afflicted with it.

For people this insensitive, the only understanding they could ever have for those who are depressed is if they themselves have it happen to them. The full treatment: bell-jar depression that ‘descends’ on them and has to lived out second by second in a suffering so intense that physical pain would be preferable. I don’t wish that on anyone, no. But for some to have ’empathy’, if they could experience one episode of that utter hell, they would pack up their smug know-it-all preaching and throw it into the dumpster.

Even post-partum depression can be deeply painful. And many, many women going through the sharp hormonal changes following the delivery of a child will experience this misery, some so severely they will need medication and therapy. I had it after the birth of my third child. Unspeakable suffering. Of course people don’t ‘understand’ unless it happens to them, but they don’t have to make the suffering of others worse by their ignorance and callousness, no.

And that sort of thinking did not help someone such as myself who was stuck in deep depression for many years.

I was a very sincere Christian. I was willing to look at any sin in my life, repent of it, and so on. And in spite of doing all that, the depression persisted anyway.

I had to read materials by Christian and Non-Christian psychologists who ultimately helped me ditch much of the depression.

The sort of world view you’re quoting from that site just does not work. If you are hurting bad enough -from depression or whatever it may be- you want results, and it won’t matter who or from where you get them, even if it’s from a *gasp* Bible-disbelieving atheist doctor.

I have no idea. Trueman won’t tell people how it came about or even if he regrets being a part of it. Which I find telling and the reason he has no credibility with me even if I agree with his vague critiquing posts.

Chiming in late, but I think when this all first went down I decided he may be under a gag order. Don’t know if it’s true or not. Maybe I just like Trueman’s style at times, and want it to be true.

These men have to stop playing these good ole boy games and start actually calling people out by name. They’ve done that a bit with the trinity, but what about all the other nonsense?

Being in control of the TV remote control, or the husband gets the final say if the married couple move across country or not.
If we’re talking about that kind of marriage, I fail to see how any of that is a heavy burden for a guy to carry.

On Sunday mornings, News Channel 5 out of Nashville, TN airs Cornerstone Church services (Maury Davis, pastor – convicted of murder many years ago) after the news. Yesterday, I was busy in the kitchen when Davis’ show came on, so I didn’t quit what I was doing to change channels (our kitchen, living room, and dining area is all one big, open room).
Davis caught my attention when he started talking about marriage ……. male headship, woman submit, men make the decisions, husbands will be held accountable on judgement day for leading their wives and families……

Yes, this was Sunday, Sept. 11, 2016.

I want to ask Davis a myriad of questions:
“Does this mean that wives who obey their husbands get a free pass? After all, the weight of EVERYTHING falls on the husband. He is the one who will be held accountable…….not the wife.
Do women have souls? The way you talk, God gave Eve to Adam like a parent gives a child a puppy and holds the child accountable for training the puppy and making it mind.
If you had a wife who had committed that murder instead of you, would God hold you accountable for the murder?”

I did a Google for “Caroline Leaf depression” and some of the things that turned up top of the list were videos by her with titles such as,
“Prayer Overcomes Depression – Dr. Caroline Leaf”

No. No it does not. Not for me, and not for a lot of other very sincere Christians I used to run into on support forums for Christians with depression (years ago).

One thing that adds to the pain of depression (which I personally don’t struggle with all too much as I once did) are Christians who tell you this very thing – if you just pray more, or have more faith, or toss yourself into charity work, you will be healed of depression.

None of that stuff works for most people who have depression.

It just makes you feel worse, when, after ten, twenty or more years of trying that Spiritual John Wayne approach, it does not work. You feel as though you are a failure.

Also, when you are in the thick of depression, you often feel as though God has left you and is very far away, and you are low on physical and mental energy. It is not easy to pray when you have depression. It’s also hard to concentrate on reading biblical passages.

True, this.
And these are among those times when this happens and we are not abandoned without the Comforter’s help:
” …. the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know how we ought to pray, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groans too deep for words.”
(Romans 8:26)

When Caesar Augustus started enforcing Roman laws against adultery, sex slaves became very popular among Romans of means. Because slaves were household appliances and you can’t commit adultery with a household appliance.

It’s sad how people come up with ways to skirt around morals or laws like that.

There are some Muslim groups that forbid extra-marital sex, which the men get around by taking temporary wives: they “marry” a woman for an hour or day, and after fooling around with her, they divorce. That is how they get around their religion’s prohibitions of extra-martial sex.

The game’s called “Beat the System”.

Attention

We are undergoing some remodeling. If things look very odd, just come back in a few minutes and they will likely be better. GBTC Really. 🙂

Over the next week or so we’ll be shoring up some deferred maintenance. So things will be messy. Just walk around the scaffolding and tarps laid out on the floors. And please don’t touch the walls. They may have wet paint on them.