<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Yuri Snisarenko:<B>DPasek, thanks for your contribution as a Chen practitioner... The basic exercise in Chen stile you usually start with is elementary rotation of the arm(s) in front of your body. In this exercise you are supposed to get the basic idea of what chansi jin is. I would describe the chansi jin as a spiral movement of the hand. In some sense it goes "around" along your arm. The feature of this kind of spiral movement is almost constant</B> rotation of the hand in process of arm circling. Once you get the idea of this spiral movement of the hand you may learn and try to do beginning movements of the form launching this kind of hand turning in them. Almost all movements from the Chen style are designed so that this spiral turning would go freely...</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yuri,

Since this is a Yang style forum I don’t want to go too deeply into Chen style, but what you stated is pretty good. The basic chansijin exercises are an excellent way to understand the spiraling energy within the various circles that the arms make. This spiraling (as I understand it) is more than simply rotating the arm inward or outward, although that is a part of it. The form then is sort of like stringing together various ways of performing these spirals within circles. The similarities between the chansijin basic exercises and the form are especially clear when practicing the laojia (old frame) yilu (1st routine) [which is the most similar to Yang style].

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Anderzander:<B> Louis had mentioned his understanding was rooted in his physical experience - so I looked at mine to better understand what he meant.

Nothing more really.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Stephen,

I've been thinking about your approach. Meanwhile I recalled what I know about Cheng Manqing style and Yang Jianhou style and I suppose I came to understanding. I think that stuff is slightly different from Yang Chengfu style, hence there was a little 'debate'.

[This message has been edited by Yuri Snisarenko (edited 03-08-2006).]

This discussion seems to force us to investigate this tricky topic more deeply. But after hearing all the opinions we still have some ambiguity. There are some reasons for that. The question is knotty. The way of using nominal designations is changing. Just look at word "jin". It's used in different contexts – for example, for tuishiou techniques and for body mechanics. And that's not only cases. So maybe the subject just needs more time and facts.

Yesterday I looked into Wei Shuren's book "Yang shi taijji quanshu shu zhen", Volume 5. It seems that his style is Yang Jianhou's branch. It looks somewhat differently to Yang Chengfu style (more round) and its theory contains some unique elements. In one place he uses term "nei chansi" ("inner silk reeling") but I am not sure about the context because of my insufficient Chinese.

I would be very thankful if someone translates some moments from his roushou demonstration. When he speaks "wo zuo" in the beginning what did he do? Does that "zuo" mean "to walk" from the Wang Zongyue's classic?

As I understood he asked his partner to use force in gongbu and to stand firmly. Then he uproots his partner despite the resistance. What is he talking about during that? How does he explain his actions? What he uses?

[This message has been edited by Yuri Snisarenko (edited 03-08-2006).]

I have found the understanding of taiji concepts tend to be different based on the social and educational context. The 'scholar' as in Lutang is more conservative though still noting hard work and 'uprightness' all strengthen 'qi'. The unschooled tend to tow the line since they have no reference and inclination molds their consciousness.The university graduate (end of Qing/post Qing period may be more revolutionary in view while still holding to some of the more conservative aspects and ging out on his own with his theory of how and why.

Most of Yang style exposition was stated to be expounded by Wu Yuxian and when the 'breakup' of the styles occured (differentiation), each ran with that view of the time. Supposedly the Wu's gave face to Yang but as Yang was becoming proprietary, Wu went to Zhaobao (Qingping) for clarification!

My own teacher can do the same things this is my take on what he saying not really understanding Chinese.

People talk of peng jin, in this case the other is using peng or being full. The teacher is able to barrow this and redirect it. The other can not change nor dose he have any feeling. Not being able to change or feeling, he can not know when the yi has passed through him, not knowing this he can not change and so is pushed off or moved by his own actions.

Think of a circle and look at the teacher, his force or jin has already passed through the other from under him. No matter how much force he uses to stay there, it gets reflected back at him. nothing to do with deep stances or being stronger. I feel the silk reeling is the winding of qi and intent through the body not to be confused with li or force derived from simple compressing or twisting of the muscles as many chen stylist that I meet seem to feel it is. The idea of peng being the number one point in yang style I would say is also mistaken maybe food for other postings.

Again a great video I should post some my own teacher, maybe at a later date. Much can be learned from this. Basically he is showing that the idea of maintaining a space automatically puts one in the position of resistance. If the student was empty, with out mind this would be much better he would not be moved or at best would be very hard to.

He would not be moved because there would be no place to apply force to, any and all places would and can change.

In the clip when he says "wo zou" or "ni zou" he means 'I'll go' 'you go', which is to say I'll push, you push. I'll check it out a bit more later and perhaps supply some translation. At first glance my inclination is to say the student's bow stance is wrong - he should lean forward. But I only looked at part of it once, could be more going on.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by bamboo leaf:I should post some my own teacher, maybe at a later date. Much can be learned from this. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For the last couple of days I studied the first clip more closely and yesterday tried to imitate the actions of the master with my push hands partner. It was pretty funny thing! Because when occasionally I could apply it I wanted to laugh – so easy it was. The master uses AN vs PENG in the specific way - he changes under the pressure and dissolves it into the ground. I would suggest to study his body mechanics and try it. If you get it and apply it against your partner even once it will give you a nice feeling to the rest of the day!

Now I see why in some styles people consider peng to be just a beginning.

[This message has been edited by Yuri Snisarenko (edited 03-11-2006).]

I found a website with some exerpts from a Chinese wushu magazine article in which Yang Zhenduo answers several questions, including a question about “chousijin.” Note that the term was used by the questioner, and not introduced by Yang. He calls it “a kind of description of taijiquan’s neijin.” He mentions the phrase “yun jin ru chousi” (move jin as though drawing silk) in his answer.

Taijiquan’s drawing-silk jin is a kind of description of taijiquan’s neijin. Because the movements of Yang style taijiquan are slow and gentle (huanman rouhe), they resemble the emiting of silk from a silkworm—slowly and gently coming forth, the jin/li is continuous and unbroken, the speed is even (junyun), without any phenomenon of suddenly going more quickly or more slowly. When doing taijiquan, you must pay attention that the rate of speed is evenly distributed (junyun), firm and steady, and you must pay attention that you fangsong. When you achieve true fangsong, along with and in integration with the content of the other requirements of taijiquan, threaded from joint-to-joint, this naturally produces neijin. When the neijin comes out evenly and gently (junyun xuxu er chu), not hurried or slow, it then produces the result of “moving jin as though drawing silk” (yun jin ru chousi).

In his answer to the following question in the interview, he mentions that Chen style had fast and slow and Yang Luchan and successors made form practice all slow for various reasons. Unless we assume that "yun jin ru chou si" post-dates Yang Luchan (unlikely), this explanation of the phrase as even-ness and slowness is something of a back-formation. This is by no means to criticize what he said, but it would appear that later generations are re-interpreting this phrase.

Actually, re-reading his reply, he is kind of vague about whether 'slow and even' is really the heart of 'yun jin ru chou si'. He mixes that up with all the other requirements and then pronounces the result like 'drawing silk'.

In the answer to the following question he says the fast parts were removed to allow greater appeal to old and young, weak and strong, etc. So is slow and even for mass appeal or because it is an underlying principle? There is even a contradiction between Yang Zhenduo's explanation that it is like the way the silkworm emits silk and the explanation others give about not pulling too hard so as not to break the thread but hard enough to keep it taut. Somehow I find the explanation of chousi as 'even and slow' rather unsatisfying.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by JerryKarin:In his answer to the following question in the interview, he mentions that Chen style had fast and slow and Yang Luchan and successors made form practice all slow for various reasons. Unless we assume that "yun jin ru chou si" post-dates Yang Luchan (unlikely), this explanation of the phrase as even-ness and slowness is something of a back-formation. This is by no means to criticize what he said, but it would appear that later generations are re-interpreting this phrase.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Greetings Jerry,

By most accounts, the text that the phrase appears in, Shisan shi xing gong xinjie, was written by Wu Yuxiang (1812-1880). Wu Yuxiang first learned taijiquan from Yang Luchan, so this might indicate that the phrase, and perhaps the concept of ‘yun jin ru chousi’ post-dated, or was contemporaneous with Yang Luchan (1799-1872).

Is there any written evidence of “chansijin” prior to its occurence in Chen Xin’s book, written in the early 1900s?