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... I ... good afternoon and welcome to Opinion Journal why Mary Kissel ... we're told that Edward Snowden has more classified weeks to come ... about the National Security Agency's classify anti terror surveillance programs Brennan Center for Justice co director Elizabeth going to ... join me now from Washington ... Elizabeth died terrific piece in the op and pages of the law Street Journal ... I didn't but I'm a little confused you ... do you ... think that this program should exist ... at all or do you do you argue that it needs just better checks and balances ... at minimum ... in this program exists it needs to exist in a manner that's consistent with the law ... and that has a certain amount of public understanding of the of the nature of the program ... and the problem here is that ... there is a law that governs this kind of activity ... at and what the government is doing right well appears to go outside ... of what the law allows despite the fact that it has been signed off on ... by a secret court ... I and so the train upset that her supposedly being made that means ... at privacy and security ID made outside that the democratic process and defeats and public input ... so I was let let's talk about this checks announces so ... we know that members of Congress are briefed ... we know that the Pfizer court is is a point in their several judges on that court ... um what other checks and balances do you want on the program which is by necessity ... it has to be partially secret to be affected ... so he tells of programs like this do need to be ... at a secret ... and that doesn't mean that fundamental interpretations of the lot including things late ... in the government permitted to collect information first and dentistry relevance leader ... in things like that ... do not need to be a secret ... I'm the problem with the oversight that's in place now ... is that that we have a secret court ... and seek records generally don't work very well ... because there's only one party that appears in front of the court for the court is actually more likely ... to ... come is the wrong results and if it does come to the wrong result is to look chio there's no process for correcting ... an erroneous legal interpretation ... and also for variety the institutional reasons a up oversight of classifying heightened technical information ... and by intelligence committees in Congress and other committees in Congress ... I it tends to be very limited in its effectiveness is quite ... fond of but Elizabeth Smith vs Maryland the Supreme Court has said its ok to seize phone records ... the federal government's da is allowed to seize things like our our bank account details are credit card details ... they can collect our DNA I am at crime scenes ... of the year they're collecting many data ... I we a white given all these other things that they can collect and given ... the threat out there ... I you why does this go too far then ... the court held that some kinds of netted out and not necessarily all of them are being collected ... on don't fall within the four contended that the government doesn't need a warrant and probable cause to get them under the Constitution ... but then contraception and legislate some additional protections because Congress needed judgment ... that we value their privacy perhaps more than the fourth minute when able team to protect their privacy in these kinds of instances ... so when we say that the way I would say that that these programs they have on the onthe mm ah ... I'm not necessarily referring to the Constitution I am referring ... to the scene which is the live telling ... I guess we've got about a minute left in Torrance is so short there's a lot to discuss here ... um ... how how do we draw that line though ... I between owing to the target ... in not targeting any maybe you have to collect the mail mitigated in over the target ... if we get rid of this program are really narrowly Taylor is getting too many political open public checks and balances ... I it until we risk losing its ... effectiveness altogether or telling government ... if you wanna serve they'll people it's been a half to be more targeted in even more interesting ... well then there is no public evidence that Durata next collection of information ... is actually an effective way ... to look a terrorist what what happened in the standard that's been in place up until now ... it is a very low standard but that there needs to be some reason to believe that for some relevance to any kind of criminal or terrorist investigation before this information is collected so use a Modano yes there is us know who the terrorists are before you can target them isn't the point in the spur them to figure out who they are in the first place ... and not exactly EU may have a terrorist suspect and news that information to try and put it carries the SEC is talking to you ... and that can help you identify people who you did not know or even suspect ... average fares for the first place what you can see the state Mr said chemistry ... needed no reason to suspect a doll and look better when he's talking to Anna had an increase to help you anyway but we don't know that there's been a specific abuse yet you're saying there's a potential for abuse ... but depressingly my Dasani t going outside the perimeter is a little while Austrade there is an abuse but if compared to the IRS Lisbon that's a real abuse ... I mean if Mr Snowdon had had really the smoking gun but you thinking what are released ... I believe that he didn't really say something that's enuf of it is this not a smoking gun I think that the government violated the line using dragnet surveillance of every single American cellphone records ... that's the DVD on ... the day that Noah ... well it's a it's a complicated topic there are many different sides and I am so grateful income on the show the Brennan Center for Justice co director ... Elizabeth points in the ... region are up ten years in the pages the Wall Street