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I agree with both of y'all. the point I was trying to make is this, Todays mechanics and techs would be looking for another job if they really had to find out what was screwing up, instead of just changing part after part until the problem was fixed! Please don't misunderstand me TB I'm not refering to you! I'm just saying we should start teaching the people just starting something other than how to change parts. Pretty soon the way things are going, if a system leakes out enough refrigerant to cause a problem we're gonna have to replace it!

It's a beautiful day friends, just watch some idiot screw it up!

Build a man a fire, and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he's warm the rest of his life!

I agree with both of y'all. the point I was trying to make is this, Todays mechanics and techs would be looking for another job if they really had to find out what was screwing up, instead of just changing part after part until the problem was fixed! Please don't misunderstand me TB I'm not refering to you! I'm just saying we should start teaching the people just starting something other than how to change parts. Pretty soon the way things are going, if a system leakes out enough refrigerant to cause a problem we're gonna have to replace it!

That change will also be forced by the MARKET.

When people refuse to replace a system due to a repairable problem, it WILL require a guy with more knowledge than the "residential sales specialist."

At that point, the man with experience and knowledge will be more in demand than the New Sales Guy.

In fact, the experienced man is already more valuable, and that's good for "us."

I've done some research on wages, and I have specific numbers on mechanic wages.

Let's say you made $21.00 per flat rate hour in 2000 for a major full service nationwide repair company.

In 2006, that rate should have risen to $24.59 in order to keep pace with inflation, let alone, be an actual "raise in pay."

Auto repairs are usually based on book hours and its not unheard of for techs to accumulate 24 "hour credit" in a shift.

Retail price of $75-100 per book hour in my area and I believe they earn commission pay as opposed rather than straight hourly pay.

I personally distinguish mechanics from technicians. Former is someone who is essentially paid to turn wrenches. Second is for someone who is paid for applying what they know(taking customer complaint, and coming up with sound solution without unnecessary parts).

If you have two separate repairs but with substantially overlapping major work they may still charge much more than actual labor time and they call those "easy money". For example, labor cost on changing manifold gaskets when it has to come off anyways to replace the spark plugs.

The company I surveyed that was paying $21.00 in the year 2000 had only raised their top rate to $23.00, a deficit in purchasing power of $1.59 an hour for the flat rate mechanic.

Overcharging is a better wording than overpaid. You know that one quickie lube chain known for cheating customers. While the said morally bankrupt company shall remain unnamed, they make a better utilization of fixed cost and can allocate them over more customers so they can provide service for less as well as their supplier network that gives them volume discount. They know their game. Normal price is like $20 when its got some traffic, but they drop the price to $15 when all their bays are open.

They might actually be losing money at $15 but losing less of it than sitting empty, because the payroll time clock keeps ticking even during those idle hours.

Something I hear on this forum is "its time to raise your rate" in response to increasing overheat. While they're free to raise it, customers are free to shop around too. Competitors who have better utilization of resources can have a higher margin while having a lower rate simply because their lower price point increases volume so you can allocate expenses across more customer base.

When you look around on Craigslist, you'll find side auto mechanics who'll work from their garage wanting more per hour than they get paid at their day job. So they're putting themselves in the position of charge $30 and get 0 hrs vs charge $20 and get 2 hrs. Money is hard to come by and I'm not wasting it in something that I don't believe to offer a fair return on investment.

Being a mechanic is not what it used to be, just like the residential HVAC tech is now as much a salesman as he is a tech. Sad, but true. When it is cheaper to build a unit than it is to fix it, parts and system replacement rules the marketplace.

It's a compounding of lowering cost due to decreased cost of manufacturing (automation means better consistency and less defect) and increasing retail repair rate charged makes repairs obsolete in this market place.

Someone can be good at their work, have pride and all those warm fuzzy thing but horrible at running the business and vice versa.

When people refuse to replace a system due to a repairable problem, it WILL require a guy with more knowledge than the "residential sales specialist."

At that point, the man with experience and knowledge will be more in demand than the New Sales Guy.

In fact, the experienced man is already more valuable, and that's good for "us."

I agree completely with what you're saying, but what I'm saying is if our training programs keep turning out less and less skilled parts changers, by the time someone does get fed up with with "throw away" central systems, there wont be anyone left with enough experience and knowledge to fix the system. That is if you will still be able to get any parts. I also agree that the experienced man is, always has been, and always will be more valuable. But remember if someone is more valuable, their labor costs more, and it'll be the same difference then as it is between now and 20 years ago. Most people just aren't gonna pay the extra cost. They just want to be cool/warm again the cheapest way possible.

It's a beautiful day friends, just watch some idiot screw it up!

Build a man a fire, and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he's warm the rest of his life!

Auto repairs are usually based on book hours and its not unheard of for techs to accumulate 24 "hour credit" in a shift.

Retail price of $75-100 per book hour in my area and I believe they earn commission pay as opposed rather than straight hourly pay.

I personally distinguish mechanics from technicians. Former is someone who is essentially paid to turn wrenches. Second is for someone who is paid for applying what they know(taking customer complaint, and coming up with sound solution without unnecessary parts).

If you have two separate repairs but with substantially overlapping major work they may still charge much more than actual labor time and they call those "easy money". For example, labor cost on changing manifold gaskets when it has to come off anyways to replace the spark plugs.

Overcharging is a better wording than overpaid. You know that one quickie lube chain known for cheating customers. While the said morally bankrupt company shall remain unnamed, they make a better utilization of fixed cost and can allocate them over more customers so they can provide service for less as well as their supplier network that gives them volume discount. They know their game. Normal price is like $20 when its got some traffic, but they drop the price to $15 when all their bays are open.

They might actually be losing money at $15 but losing less of it than sitting empty, because the payroll time clock keeps ticking even during those idle hours.

Something I hear on this forum is "its time to raise your rate" in response to increasing overheat. While they're free to raise it, customers are free to shop around too. Competitors who have better utilization of resources can have a higher margin while having a lower rate simply because their lower price point increases volume so you can allocate expenses across more customer base.

When you look around on Craigslist, you'll find side auto mechanics who'll work from their garage wanting more per hour than they get paid at their day job. So they're putting themselves in the position of charge $30 and get 0 hrs vs charge $20 and get 2 hrs. Money is hard to come by and I'm not wasting it in something that I don't believe to offer a fair return on investment.

It's a compounding of lowering cost due to decreased cost of manufacturing (automation means better consistency and less defect) and increasing retail repair rate charged makes repairs obsolete in this market place.

Someone can be good at their work, have pride and all those warm fuzzy thing but horrible at running the business and vice versa.

I am astounded at how incorrect you are.

A mechanic is not paid to turn wrenches. He is paid to diagnose, recommend, and properly repair a complex automotive system.

Maybe where you live it is different. Maybe it's like that in Cuba. A lot of simple cars there.

No one can accumulate 24 hours of pay in a day. Customer approvals and availability of parts prevent that.

Your pricing example is 100% wrong. A retail hour is the cost of EVERYTHING. The building, the utilities, the insurance, just like a labor hour in HVAC.

If someone is charging you to remove gaskets in addition to the book rate for an intake manifold, I have one recommendation: report that shop to the state attorney general. Using flat rate software to overlap labor is illegal, and it is not "easy money," it is theft by deception.

The payroll clock does NOT run during idle time for a flat rate mechanic. Period. There is no commission in a flat rate shop.

Get you facts straight. Please.

The decrease in wages is due to a downward pressure on the cost of labor. No one wants to pay what our labor costs here.

Not even us.

Raising rates is a great idea. Instead of increasing the number of customers to try to achieve an economy of scale which most shops simply cannot do, the higher rates eliminate the customers you don't want. You need to purge the bottom 10% of your business, especially in auto repair, because those are the customers that take up more time, have the most complaints, and decrease your profit per visit. This must be done on a five year basis, according to a top industry consultant. Chain shops cannot to it, because it can look like discrimination, but a smaller shop can tell a customer, "I can get you in next month." That's usually all it takes.

Review my post. Less money, in terms of real purchasing power, is being offered. FOR THE SAME WORK.

This means our labor value is decreasing, as it is being forced lower by our own policies and the willingness of those in other nations to work for a lower lifestyle.

So, yes Virginia, we are pricing ourselves, as a nation, out of the labor market.

Anti-DIY, Ok so you're saying that if I have a problem with someone else's system I can get on here and get any help I need, but if I have the same problem with my own system, I'm just SOL as to getting help here? That makes about as much sense as a football bat! I agree this forum shouldn't help the avg joe try to fix his heat pump, But why can't we help other members in our buisness fix their own heat pump? (I just used heat pump as an example!) Now, I've said what I have to say on the subject, and I'm done. Believe what you want, but refgrigeration, is refrigeration! from a water cooler that only holds 8 oz. to a big chiller that holds 1000 lbs., they work on the exact same principle.

I agree completely with what you're saying, but what I'm saying is if our training programs keep turning out less and less skilled parts changers, by the time someone does get fed up with with "throw away" central systems, there wont be anyone left with enough experience and knowledge to fix the system. That is if you will still be able to get any parts. I also agree that the experienced man is, always has been, and always will be more valuable. But remember if someone is more valuable, their labor costs more, and it'll be the same difference then as it is between now and 20 years ago. Most people just aren't gonna pay the extra cost. They just want to be cool/warm again the cheapest way possible.

Shall I show my crystal ball? Okay.

Poorly trained guys who don't know how to fix systems, but who are able to relate to the NEXT generation of customers (after I and many others here have assumed room tremperature...) and promote themselves using "social media" (aka self aggrandizement) will sell new systems at rock bottom rates, because everyone will know everything about the business of everyone. Fewer and fewer talented people will enter the field.

Then we will be importing talented people from second world and third world nations who have worked hard, learned to do with less, and who are capable of repairing complex systems, and THEY will be the future generation of workers. Give them 30 years, and the same phenomena will happen to their grandchildren. At that point, everything will be disposable, because only the computers and their repairmen will have the knowledge needed to build or fix anything.

Read Toffler's Future Shock. He visited my dorm at NYU to talk about his then-new book.