January 13, 2015

I need advice and solutions on sleeping arrangements with cis and trans women (self.asktransgender)
submitted 11 hours ago by oogiewoogie

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I have a sensitive issue that I need some advice on. I belong to a growing LGBTQ club in my city that goes on out of town trips. I plan the rooms and accommodation for the ladies which involve shared beds, in rooms of 2 or 4.
I know many of the cis lesbians that go on these trips, and while they are supportive of trans rights, many of them are nervous being alone in a room as them, let alone sharing a bed. I am disappointed that transphobia exists even in the LGBT community but it does exist. Yes, I know our members need to be educated, but as you know, that will take time and not happen overnight. So please do not berate me on running a transphobic club.
We had a trans girl join us for the last few trips. When she first posted on our message board that she was trans and looking to share rooms, I got several e-mails from the cis women insisting that they were not comfortable being roomed with any trans women. To avoid any conflict, I have always shared a bed with her and have not had any issues.
However this year we have had another trans girl want to join us. I want to be as inclusive and non-discriminatory as possible, as that is the motto of our club. But my options were:

(1) We have a sign up webpage for trips. I could add a brief question on the signup sheet if they had problems sharing a room/bed with a trans girl, but that would go against our club’s non-discriminatory policy, and also draw attention to the fact that they are trans. Plus I am certain that the trans women would find it offensive as they are women themselves. I have done my own informal survey by working the question into a conversation, and I would say more than half the women would not want to share a room with a trans woman.

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(2) I could house the two trans girls together in the same bed, but that would also draw attention to the most obvious thing they have in common, which is that they are not cis. And even those that did indicate that they were okay sharing a bed seemed to do so with some dissonance. Plus the first trans girl was accustomed to sharing a bed with me and was expecting to do the same this trip.

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(3) I could assign it on a first-come-first served policy, but I will have to prepare for the fallback, and possibly even more embarrassment for the trans girl after we have left on the trip.

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(4) Many of the lesbians who go are often groups of 3 seeking a 4th. All it takes is for one of the three to say no and a trans girl cannot be included with them.

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Luckily for me this time, the 2nd trans girl dropped out due to work commitment issues and I did not have to worry about it this trip. However, our group is growing. We have several trans members which I am sure will want to make it out on a trip sooner or later.
How do I approach this sensitive issue in the future? I don’t want to hurt any of the trans girls but at the same time I also have to make all the members happy. I need advice and solutions. These rooms cost hundreds of dollars, partially sponsored by the club, and while I am trying to be inclusive, I really do not want to risk people dropping out over one person.

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53 commentsshare
all 53 comments
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[–]ske10523 y/o MtF ~20 months HRT | AMA 40 points 10 hours ago*
Whilst it may be up to individual choice as to who a person wishes to share a bed with, it does seem very inappropriate as you have already noted. In your position I would either make a blanket statement which states that everyone should accept transgender individuals sharing with others of the same gender as a condition of the trip, or exclude transgender individuals from your group entirely. Catering to these lesbians and avoiding disruption is of course the easiest way to deal with the issue, but I don’t see how giving into a transphobic view will make for an ethical group.
I would do a sign up with a very clear note that participants must be comfortable with transgender individuals, as long as their behavior is appropriate (as all attendees should adhere to). Perhaps you will lose some attendees, but it’s the only fair way to conduct yourselves without being transphobic. It would be unfair to exclude or make special cases for transgender members of your group, because it undermines their fundamental identity. I can’t think of much worse than having your identity invalidated by your peers actually – it’s a serious issue.
I’m sorry that you’re dealing with this difficult issue however. I can really appreciate how difficult it is to please everyone whilst doing the most ethical thing. In this case, considering this is a LGBT group, I would really ask you to do the ethical thing and not be ironically intolerant of people’s gender identity.
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[–]Wavooka 16 points 10 hours ago
This sucks. I don’t envy being in your position.
Did anyone mention why they were uncomfortable?
Do you think that this is a problem with ‘cliques’ or with something more substantial? Maybe you could make an effort to play matchmaker with a group of girls that are more tolerant?
Have you talked to the trans girls at all? Maybe they will be more gracious than the other girls are and agree to bunking together… Or maybe they’ll be made so uncomfortable by the fact that it seems like the others aren’t ready to accept them that they’ll choose not to come. (Which is technically a solution. I guess?)
partially sponsored by the club
I don’t mean to add to your problems, but to me the most problematic part of this situation is that the trans girls are presumably paying dues to an organization that can’t bring itself to treat them equitably.
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[–]oogiewoogie[S] 1 point 2 hours ago
There aren’t exactly that many gay women that go to these events. It is usually about 14-16, about 25-30 at most at the bigger events. It is pay per trip and there are no dues.
This is over generalizing, but many of the women are just uncomfortable with being close to someone who has/had a penis. That is what I got from my conversation with them. Some of the older ones are just not supportive of trans people period. Some are even afraid that they will make a move on them, as ridiculous as it sounds. There are some lesbians in the club that have never really encountered a trans person in their life and base it off their own judgement. Some think that they should be housed with the gay men and should have no issue with being with men, since she used to be one. I have tried talking to them, I cannot change their opinions overnight. My only hope is that their opinion will change as we start including more trans members and they have more time encountering them.
We do have a statement that says we are all inclusive. It is included in all the emails we send out at the time the trip is announced. The majority of the club consists of gay men and many of the gay men have indicated that they are not comfortable sharing with women straight or cis and vice versa, so many feel that it is okay to say no to trans bed partners too.
The trans woman that has gone on my trips has felt isolated as well. People do talk to her, but sometimes they don’t even use the correct pronouns. She politely corrects them but they make the same mistake again, clearly indicating that they see her still as a male. She takes it in stride, and is aware that transphobia does exist even in the LGBT community, but she is not a good orator and sometimes has trouble driving her point across or explaining herself.
Single beds are not always an option as many of the rooms do not offer single beds. And the trans women do not feel that they should pay more just because they are trans and want to feel included too. As for the clique mentality, it does exist heavily among lesbians – just step into any lesbian or gay club and you can see it.
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[–]Jenny_BlakePansexual-Transgender [score hidden] 37 minutes ago
As a young trans woman I would never attend such an event with your club after hearing how this trans woman was treated. Those women misgendering that trans women on purpose should have been removed from the event. Allowing these women to do this is passive approval.
My advice is make your club explicitly LGB only (you already are except in name) or tell these women causing problems to get over their irrational prejudices. Sure they might leave, but fuck them.
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[–]Chel_of_the_seatrans woman – 11 months HRT, full time, non-op 14 points 6 hours ago
I don’t want to hurt any of the trans girls but at the same time I also have to make all the members happy. I need advice and solutions. These rooms cost hundreds of dollars, partially sponsored by the club, and while I am trying to be inclusive, I really do not want to risk people dropping out over one person.
No you don’t, and you should. You’re running a safe space. People clearly not accepting on any real level don’t belong in one. They need to get onboard or leave.
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[–]harmony_Rose 8 points 5 hours ago
Agreed. OP’s post is nauseating. This kind of passive aggressive transphobia, especially when it is disguised as well-meaning, is in many ways worse than outright bigotry.
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[–]M-Christina(MtF)(21y) Pre-HRT (&Dutch) 12 points 9 hours ago
Get rooms with two single beds?
I personally would not be comfortable with sharing a bed no matter who it is.
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[–]DamnInternetIdiots 11 points 7 hours ago*
Let me ask you a simple question: Suppose the field trip was more general and included straight allies, or wasn’t LGBT themed. How would you respond to a request to exclude lesbians from the sleeping arrangements because some women were uncomfortable?
If you ask me a choice, I say option 1. It’s the most honest. I would phrase it exactly as such:
“Check here if you do not wish to have trans women in your sleeping arrangement.”
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[–]ellaCD24/MtF -6 points 6 hours ago
People would most likely not be calling straight women bigoted if they didn’t want to sleep in the same bed as lesbians or lesbians if they didn’t didn’t want straight women in the same bed.
I think there is far too much discrimination already without people having such a victim complex and jumping to extreme transphobia as the explanation for everything bad that happens to anyone trans.
People don’t seem to realize that jumping to those conclusions is just being terrible to people because other people have been terrible to them or people like them in other situations
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[–]purple-snow¿? 13 points 5 hours ago
jumping to extreme transphobia as the explanation for everything bad that happens to anyone trans
I’m not sure what your definition of transphobia is, but including all cis people while excluding all trans people seems to fit very neatly into mine.
I understand why sharing a bed might be an issue, but I’d have imagined that the people for whom it’s an issue would be a little more picky about who they share beds with. The idea that all cis women are safe (and desirable to share a bed with!) and all trans women are potentially dangerous is both absurd and highly insulting.
Nobody said ‘extreme’. Trans women probably aren’t weeping into their pillows en masse at the thought of not being able to go on this trip. It’s not terrorism. It’s just a shitty thing to do to go on a trip for LGBT women but specifically request that you aren’t forced to treat trans women as equals.
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[–]BetaPop 30 points 10 hours ago*
I think you should reevaluate your priorities. Would you still cater to these women’s irrational bigotry if instead of a trans woman it was a black or Hispanic woman? I really don’t think bigotry should be tolerated at all let alone catered to. Also “nervous being in the same room”? What group is this? If this is an lgbtq group and the trans girls are paying members I just cannot fathom how you’re trying to justify discriminating against them because of some bigots. Let them go join a TERF group somewhere else. Like seriously, you should just make it a lgb group if you’re going to take them seriously.
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[–]AndromedaPrincess 9 points 6 hours ago
Gotta go with this one. What are these cis women so afraid of? That a trans woman will rape one of them with her girly little estrogenized penis that is incapable of getting fully erect? Are we all just freaky sexual deviants or something? This is bigotry, there’s no way around it.
If I were you, I’d make it clear that your group has a very harsh anti discrimination policy. What these girls are doing is discrimination. They don’t like it? Tough. Maybe they don’t belong in a group that preaches equality. I mean, there’s a damn “T” right in “LGBTQ”, what the hell did they think they were signing up for?
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[–]aelia-lamia1 Year HRT 8 points 6 hours ago
You’re gonna have to make the call for yourself. Do you want to exclude people on the basis of them being transphobes, or on the basis of them being transgender?
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[–]-Enkara-Trans Anarchist 11 points 4 hours ago*
So it’s basically a transphobic club, but you’ve kept that a secret from trans attendee(s) by virtue of various logistical and social shenanigans.
I get this is coming out of a sense of caring or something, but that might suck when they find out that people they’ve come to know either see them as a threat (other folks) or as a liability (you).
Either be an openly transphobic organization or don’t cater to the transphobes, someone’s gonna get alienated.
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[–]patienceinbee…and that’s typical of you 10 points 9 hours ago
How do I approach this sensitive issue in the future? I don’t want to hurt any of the trans girls but at the same time I also have to make all the members happy.
I’ve heard this before in slightly different language: “we’re here to balance the rights of both parties … your use of the washroom is prohibited.” That was something from the year 1997, and it was cited as an example of employment discrimination.
This flavour of tyranny of majority against a marginalized intersectional life experience is precisely what prevents equity from ever getting a foothold. It artificially criminalizes and condemns the very people who need to be protected from peer discrimination, exclusion, and segregation the very most.
You approach the sensitive issue by informing that you’re not going to perpetuate a cisnormative marginalization of trans women from within a community of an intersectional experience (i.e., queerness) which has its own history of being marginalized, penalized, and criminalized by a wider heteronormative world. The master’s tools…
tl;dr: You’re accommodating women for these trips. Women are both cis and trans. Do not facilitate a manufactured hierarchy of greater women and lesser women, respectively, by segregating or excluding the latter because of their more marginalized treatment by cis people. If anything, you need to advocate for the latter.
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[–]ellaCD24/MtF -11 points 7 hours ago
Nothing you have said applies to sharing a bed. You can fight for equality and respect as much as you like but sharing a bed is just an entirely different issue.
I would put it on the same ‘tier’ of intimacy as sexual attraction (but obviously not related).
Would you call someone intolerant for not being sexually attracted to transwomen but still like CIS girls? Would you call someone racist for not being sexually attracted to certain ethnicities or preferring one over another?
I’m sure there are things you would feel more/less comfortable talking about or doing with either CIS/trans women. It doesn’t make you any less tolerant.
TL;DR: You don’t have to be an extremist to be the world’s #1 feminist.
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[–]Chel_of_the_seatrans woman – 11 months HRT, full time, non-op 9 points 6 hours ago
One, cis isn’t capitalized, it’s not an abbreviation.
Two, no, it really isn’t. As someone said above, would OP be seriously considering the issue if one of them said “I wouldn’t be comfortable rooming with a black girl”?
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[–]ellaCD24/MtF -7 points 6 hours ago
Sorry. I do know about the cis thing, it’s just an awful habit from talking about eastern former soviet countries (welcome to EU gaming politics)
I shouldn’t have used the race thing. As soon as I posted I had a feeling someone might bring up exactly what you just did which I agree with. It’s a poor comparison.
But honestly is there no difference in your life with cis/trans? You’re not any more comfortable talking about trans issues with transwomen than those cisgendered? There’s nothing you would do with one and not the other?
I just think its very unfair to call people intolerant for having preferences with regards to sex or gender with something so intimate and even if its ok with you that doesn’t mean everyone else has to be like you or be called a bigot
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[–]Chel_of_the_seatrans woman – 11 months HRT, full time, non-op 8 points 6 hours ago
This is an LGBT group. People who are going to reject the central premise of trans acceptance shouldn’t be welcome, simple as that. I’ll agree that with respect to the general public we have much bigger problems, but OP’s group can’t possibly be effective as an advocate when it’s not even safe internally.
But honestly is there no difference in your life with cis/trans? You’re not any more comfortable talking about trans issues with transwomen than those cisgendered?
Except insofar as trans issues and sex are concerned, no, not really. Those are the settings where trans-ness is actually a material issue: trans issues because of their life experience, and sex because of potential genital configuration and common hangups.
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[–]patienceinbee…and that’s typical of you 4 points 6 hours ago
This is an LGBT group.
Or perhaps in practice it’s a [LGBQ]C-only group and no one knows how to come right out and say so.
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[–]patienceinbee…and that’s typical of you 9 points 6 hours ago
Yeah. True.
I was thinking that if the cis women engaging in this transmisogyny don’t want to share a room with a trans woman member within their very own club, no less, then they can opt-in to a single-only room, so long as there’s a markedly higher fee charged to do that. Like double the fee, despite it being half the room (and solo at that).
Whatever additional revenue which comes in from those opt-ins can be redirected to the club’s budget for funding projects which help put a stop to cissexism and transmisogyny within their own ranks. If they want to wave that T in LGBTQ, yet ignore the inherent cissexism of that arrangement, then this remedial approach would be an way to put their money where their mouth is.
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[–]Mittins001 1 point 2 hours ago
I like this suggestion. If they won’t room with trans women then they shouldn’t get the priviledge of sharing a room to lower costs. When everyone signs up, have that option of “do not feel comfortable sharing a bed with a trans woman” and in a note below that, say that it will cost more because you will have to put them in their own room. Just say the arrangements are random, so my guess is they will not check that option and hope that they don’t get put with a trans woman. There’s always the possibility that they could get put with them, but if they want to share a room with anyone they have to be open to that possibility. I have a feeling they will learn to deal with their transphobia, rather than pay extra. And if they do get put with a trans woman I hope that they can learn to get along for the night and figure out there’s nothing to fear. Maybe they will gossip the first time it happens and they’ll find out from the person who was “stuck” with her that she’s really a nice person and like any other woman.
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[–]patienceinbee…and that’s typical of you 8 points 6 hours ago
TL;DR: You don’t have to be an extremist to be the world’s #1 feminist.
I will not apologize for holding the notion that women can exist in more than one kind of container.
Deal with your internalized transmisogyny. And I don’t mean that flippantly: unlearning our internalized cissexism and transmisogyny can take a tremendous amount of effort and time. It is, however, well worth it.
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[–]nancysbw41 yo trans woman, 1 1/2 years HRT 6 points 4 hours ago
I think you have three reasonable options.
Announce from the outset that we are an inclusive group, and that no cissexism or heterosexism will be allowed. End of story. Anyone complaining can be told that while their discomfort is valid, that acting upon it will not be allowed.
If someone approaches you as being uncomfortable with a roommate, they can pay the cost difference to have two single rooms, one for themselves, and one for their former roommate. You then apologize to the young woman for the behavior of the other member.
Close your organizaton. I’m serious. If you won’t stand up against anti-LGBTQ prejudice as an LGBTQ organization, you should close up shop.
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[–]oogiewoogie[S] 0 points an hour ago
It is an LGBTQ club consisting mainly of gay men. It’s 9:1 gay men:gay women. We go where the gay men go. Lesbians simply do not have the disposable income gay men have and giving them single rooms or single beds would drive up costs and shut out most of them it they weren’t sharing 4 to a room.
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[–]mrstalinIt’s Ms Stalin now 5 points 6 hours ago
I just wouldn’t cater to their bigotry, plain and simple. As a term for signing up in future trips, have them understand that trans women are women and any bigotry will not be tolerated under any circumstances.
When even LGBT groups become unfriendly, that’s when there’s a major problem. We are all fighting for equality, therefore there shouldn’t be inequality in our own ranks.
If these people are still being bigoted and causing a scene because of it after this solution, or if you want a workaround, tell them that if they want a group sponsored room, they must be ok with sharing a room with a trans woman. Otherwise, they will be free to pay for their own room, and you would be happy to forward them a schedule and give them a number to call so they may participate in the events planned and keep in the loop. This way, if they must be bigoted, it’ll be at their own cost and removes the transphobia from your policies. This may actually be the best way to accomplish this.
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[–]tammy93401trans geekbabe 5 points 3 hours ago
Honestly, I agree with the others that your best option is to plan your trips such that people don’t have to share beds at all. (And, if you’re worried about losing people, such a policy is bound to do that – I certainly would never go on a trip where I had to share a bed with someone I didn’t know, trans or otherwise.
I also disagree with your premise that you “have to make all the members happy”. You absolutely don’t have to do that, and although you’re choosing to try, I don’t think it’s actually possible to do that for any group of more than 3 or 4 people on a consistent basis.
But the real issue is this: If you have members who “are nervous being alone in a room as” a trans woman, your group is neither inclusive nor non-discriminatory. Your choices then are:
Acknowledge that your group isn’t inclusive or non-discriminatory, and that trans women are affirmatively excluded; or
Insist that the members of your group behave in accordance with the values of the group (ie, in a non-discriminatory way toward trans women).
You can’t have it both ways. You can’t claim to be inclusive and non-discriminatory and then behave in a way that’s not inclusive and is discriminatory. It feels from your words like you might be looking for a way to be non-inclusive and discriminatory without having to face the fact that this is what you’re doing, and I don’t think that works.
Being inclusive means being inclusive. Being non-discriminatory means being non-discriminatory. Whatever else anyone can say, there’s no way around that.
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[–]oogiewoogie[S] -1 points 2 hours ago
It doesn’t work out financially as there are sometimes no options as all rooms have double/queen beds and the costs of these rooms are sometimes over $400-500 depending on where we go and it keeps costs down. Lesbians unfortunately do not have the same level of income as gay men do.
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[–]NorthStar873919/MtF 7 points 8 hours ago
I find this especially odd because they’re lesbians. Don’t they realize that hetero women would do the same thing to them? And if they are already attracted to women and are willing to share a room with them (if they’re cis). So what exactly is the “danger” here?
Also, how long have these two trans women in question been on HRT / how well do they pass? Its unlikely you know the answer to that first one, I realize. Also before anyone jumps on me, im aware that this *shouldn’t” matter, but it obviously does.
Ultimately I would echo what others have said, you can’t set the awful precedent in an lgbt gtoup that this kind of discrimination is OK. If they werent willing to room with black women, would you “keep the peace” in that situation too? Especially if it was a racial equality group?
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[–]Leadrabbit 1 point 4 hours ago
well since you bring up the already attracted to women and looking for roomies, I think it may be a secret lgbt swingers club.
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[–]oogiewoogie[S] -1 points 2 hours ago
The first one that rooms with me actually has already had SRS surgery, a tracheal shave, and passes (in my opinion) except for the voice. She is in her 40s and has been on HRT for over 10 years. She is a lovely person. I thought she was a female when I first saw her until she spoke and revealed a deep voice. She says she has had voice surgery too but it did little to change her voice. I know this after sharing a room/bed with her and getting to know her. I am unsure of the other trans girl as I have not met her, and asking a trans person you have never met about what they have down there is extremely rude and irrelevant, as is pointing out that they have/haven’t had SRS to people that they don’t know.
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[–]ZoeyNoseRubs [score hidden] 51 minutes ago
I thought she was a female when I first saw her
She is female, trans women are female. The ignorant and bigoted idea that we aren’t women and female is the entire source behind all these cissexist misconceptions.
This whole group just sounds completely fucked up. Various members of the group misgender the trans women to their faces despite correction, that’s even worse than the bed sharing issue. Kick out the bigots or embrace the fact that the group is full of bigots and cater to the transphobes. If you go with the latter it’s probably better to just have a blanket ban on all trans people from joining.
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[–]Alyssa_B28 MtF (HRT 10/13/14 | FT 12/31/14)fart propelled cloud-princess [score hidden] 50 minutes ago
Promise Im not attacking you here but it seems like you have a lot to learn about what it means to be trans. The fact that you were leaning towards excluding trans girls from sleeping arrangements with cis women says a lot.
In this post alone, you talk about it being inappropriate to share that kind of information but literally just shared her medical history with all of us.
Not only that, but you said “i thought she was a female”. Is she not?
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[–]oogiewoogie[S] [score hidden] 39 minutes ago
The word here is “thought”. This was years ago. I too am new at interacting with trans people. I met her several years ago, coming from a country where you get arrested for being gay, let alone meet someone who was trans. I’m going to admit that I had the same apprehension when I knew I was going to share a bed with a trans girl but of course those fears were unfounded, especially after I got to know her.
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[–]sejhammer25, ftm, aspie, gay at home dad 4 points 7 hours ago
You might have to get tough with the first come-first served policy and set a confirmation date X days before each trip where a person is locked in and they owe their portion of the room fee whether they go or not. You might just have to explain your duty to non-discriminatory policy AND your duty to keep costs in line like you did here.
It sounds illegal to systematically room trans women separately! It’s one thing if your friend likes sharing a room with you and has that expectation at this point, but you need a clear policy that women room together, trans or cis.
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[–]patienceinbee…and that’s typical of you 5 points 6 hours ago
It sounds illegal, because it is deeply unethical, antisocial, and inhumane, but unfortunately it remains very legal in several places.
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[–]blazella 5 points 10 hours ago
they are being silly. we are girls…
just act like things are normal as they are. if any transphobe has an issue, they can be the ones left out.
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[–]nancysbw41 yo trans woman, 1 1/2 years HRT 3 points 4 hours ago
It should be noted that Title IX would prohibit this kind of discrimination in a public school. To me, sharing beds is too high of a degree of intimate placement at that age; many kids may be self-conscious of their bodies, or might be very uncomfortable sharing personal space. This might be a great opportunity to make everyone more comfortable.
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[–]LadySasha 2 points 3 hours ago
This may sound kinda dumb or over simplistic but if it’s LGBT then T should be treated the same as LGB.
I agree with the person who gave the straight/lesbian example. I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t stand for any homophobia so why is transphobia ok?
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[–]hoping4rein [score hidden] 55 minutes ago
Replace “trans” and “cis” with “black” and “white” and then your answer should be obvious.
Also, you aren’t going to expel transphobia by keeping cis people from experiencing what trans people are like.
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[–]oogiewoogie[S] [score hidden] 35 minutes ago
There are people of all races in the group and we have actually had our apprehension with racism as well. They are not as overt as the transphobia though. I am a POC myself. And believe it or not, as much as I wanna put race aside, it is mainly the black girls that have more of a problem with trans girls as they tend to be more conservative in their thinking.
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[–]harmony_Rose 2 points 5 hours ago*
By allowing this kind of transphobia you run a transphobic club. Period. And then you have the gall to come on here and ask for advice? This is your problem. Not ours.
I honestly think this is one of the most revolting posts ever put on r/asktrans. Seriously. It’s nauseating to think OP feels she is being compassionate by reaching out to trans people in order to ask our opinion on her own transphobia and bigotry. How OP was ever put in charge of any LBTGQ is insane. IF OP wants my advice she should tell her lesbian cis members to get out or learn to be human beings. Then she should apologize for bothering the trans community with her passive-aggressive, transphobic bullshit.
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[–]smellslikeahuman 2 points 4 hours ago
I just read up to the point where you justify transphobia in your club don’t ask for people to not berate you when you deserve it.
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[–]olivias1988MtF Dec ’13 E May ’14 AA 0 points 5 hours ago
I don’t think there is anything wrong with trying to cater to them, to a point. It sucks to have to do it ofc, but doing so might actually end up being a good thing. Everyone here pretty much has said screw the lesbians, which yea sure they are being unfair and if ultimately they do not change their position you should. However that is not really the best result.
The best result would be if you put a transwoman in with some of the other women who said they were OK with it. Even if there was dissonance. Then they can find that is actually fine, it was perfectly safe and any worries they had were overblown. Then maybe they won’t have a problem next time and maybe they will mention to others how problem free it was. Thusly reducing the level of bigotry.
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[–]tofuminx 2 points 6 hours ago
To OP I’m glad you’re making the effort to do this and I can’t imagine what I would do.
I do think the stance should be made clear that transwomen are women too and your group prides itself on inclusiveness. However, there is no reason to not allow choice for roomies unless the demands are totally unreasonable like having a OKcupid filter list of requirements.
Reasonable is something like if I had an ex who pops up in the same trip I wouldn’t want to be in the same room as well.
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[–]ellaCD24/MtF -1 points 5 hours ago
Well fuck me for thinking people have a right to choose who they want in their bed, right?
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[–]nancysbw41 yo trans woman, 1 1/2 years HRT 7 points 4 hours ago
No. You are arguing that someone should be able to reject a bed partner because they are trans when no other criterion of rejection is allowed. If the club allowed anyone to reject a bed partner for any reason, it would be perfectly fine to do so. But to allow someone to discriminate only on the basis of trans status is discriminatory
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[–]ellaCD24/MtF 0 points 4 hours ago
You should have control over who’s in your bed no matter how politically incorrect it is.
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[–]nancysbw41 yo trans woman, 1 1/2 years HRT 4 points 4 hours ago
You should have the right to your own bed, I agree. But you shouldn’t force people to share beds with some people and not others. You shouldn’t force anyone to share a bed, period

Yeah, and they are not all okay with sleeping in the same room with dudes, not just beds. Got it. Still sounds like it would be a lot less trouble just to go camping with your friends. But that’s just me🙂

But it’s primarily the black women who have a problem with it, being that black women are so “conservative.” Quelle horreur. I guarantee all the women have a problem with it, black women are simply the only ones with the ovaries to say so.

I didn’t read that far. Stupidly, I didn’t think it could get any worse. So, it’s not just older lesbians who have a problem with bunking-up with men, but “black girls” too, who ostensibly tend toward being “conservative” (what does this even MEAN?).

Gee, what about old-black-conservative-lesbians? How many stereotypes/misrepresentations can these bigots fit into one sentence before they completely give their game away? That’s probably why they slander and tear down women piecemeal, one demographic at a time.

I, in the last few days, admitted to being a lesbian. It was a strange and difficult admission. As a very new person whose thoughts are a bit confused, the idea of sharing a bed with anyone with a penis, I would strongly dislike. It wouldn’t matter how they identified, I just couldn’t.

I imagine that it’s probably the lesbians’ only option. The closure of lesbian bars and decline of lesbian-specific social groups has forced a lot of women into primarily gay male spaces, which stay open because men have the money. I know I certainly wouldn’t spend a lot of time at my local gay bar if there was any other option in my town.

But of course once the straight dudes move in the lesbians will leave these shared spaces too, and have absolutely nothing.

I love how a bunch of them can recognize how sharing a bed can be an intimate thing, even if there’s no sex involved – “I certainly would never go on a trip where I had to share a bed with someone I didn’t know, trans or otherwise”, to use one of their statements as an example. But then they can’t understand why women wouldn’t want to share a bed with someone with a dick (inside or outside) that they barely know. Their understanding always goes only so far: good for me, but not for thee.

In their zeal to claim how they’re not all perverts, and so women should be just fine with sharing a bed, they conveniently forget how many women have been sexually molested and assaulted. For many of us, this happened in our own beds. Where we thought we were safe. By someone we thought we could trust. But instead of having the intelligence and kindness to recognize that, the trannies make it all about their needs.

It’s the same old shit – guilt a woman into ignoring her own boundaries to give a guy what he wants. Take advantage of how women are raised to be “nice,” how we’re not supposed to hurt anyone’s feelings, and use that to get what they want. Tell me again how that’s not abusive or coercive, trannies?

Talk about enforcing compulsory heterosexuality! Oh yes, those lesbians just need to get over their irrational dislike of sharing beds with straight dudes, I mean, transwomen.

Also it’s interesting that many of lesbians in this club, despite mouthing trans-positive propaganda, obviously still KNOW that there is a difference between men and women, and that a man with a dick in a dress is not a lesbian.

And it’s so illuminating how practically gleeful many of these commenters seem to be about forcing lesbians to reprogram their own wants and desires.

I like how she settled on “trans girl” as the phrase to describe these dudes.

If 2 out of 14-16 members have members, that means 1/7 lesbians are women born trans or whatever? How can liberals not see that’s an absolutely huge number that makes you question the demographics of everything? If 15% of all lesbians were Ukrainian or something, people would wonder WTF is up?

“The first one that rooms with me actually has already had SRS surgery, a tracheal shave, and passes (in my opinion) except for the voice. She is in her 40s and has been on HRT for over 10 years.”

Sounds like someone with enough disposable income that he’s sharing for the fun of not being alone, rather than out of necessity.

Ugh. I had to take a break from reading those comments when I got to this one (which is standard trans-style woman-hating):

“What are these cis women so afraid of? That a trans woman will rape one of them with her girly little estrogenized penis that is incapable of getting fully erect?”

Ha ha. Women are such sissies. Fear of rape is, like, so hilarious. Especially when the potential weapon is so small and “girly.”

Actually, all the talk about penises, while not beside the point, are not the actually main point. The point is, they are MEN. The point is, even the lesbians who are tying themselves in knots not to be perceived as “transphobic” know that they are men. And they know that men can be very creepy, and that men do get off on women in ways other than trying to stick their dicks in them. Men are very creative in their violations of women’s boundaries — they can violate women with words and looks and touches — and there is NO reason on earth to think that men who have transitioned are any different.

Also, the question of HRT/medical transitioning is only relevant if this organization gatekeeps on that front. If they’re already letting transbians in, I highly doubt they’re asking for a note from a doctor.

I’m also pretty well convinced that the impotence from HRT is overblown and may even be a flat-out lie in many cases. And nothing’s stopping a bepenised transbian from taking a dose of Viagra if he’s determined to attack someone.

As you note, there are many other ways for men to sexually victimize women. It’s why castration is not a deterrent.

“I’m also pretty well convinced that the impotence from HRT is overblown”

I’m guessing obesity + age + porn exposure + paraphilia is what causes it, not hormones. But sicko comments about “defective girly penises” are fun and self affirming when you have a sissification fetish. And somehow a world that sees “misandry” everywhere doesn’t see fit to call these dudes out on it.

So ironic that those who insist on identifying as women seem to straight-up refuse to in any way identify WITH women…

No sympathy. No understanding. No fucking CONCEPT of why this would bother a real woman – (maybe because you’re NOT ONE – and because what you think makes a person a woman is straight-up shallow sexist bullshit, perchance?)

The trans werent even ASKED if they would share with each other, nor told that some may not want to share a bed w them. while Im sure plenty are hateful and would push boundaries just to do it, I am betting that many would just take it in stride.

But they aren’t even given the option to be understanding, because this woman has decided that saving trans feelings about their identity is so sacred that the trans cannot even be *asked* to accommodate the women.

It’s bad enough when trans push themselves where they shouldn’t be, but when the PC police push them into those places, it’s even worse. I cannot imagine if another woman was the one telling me to sleep w a trans like it or leave it.

Maybe she has encountered trans that harass, and that’s why she’s hesitant to ask even the most basic questions, but my bet is she wants to be super inclusive. To the point of excluding 14-40 lesbians, for ONE or 2 MEN. Typical.

Erectile dysfunction as a “women’s” reproductive “rights” issue.
The Reproductive Right to have an erect penis! LOL. It would be (is) hilarious, except these fucks are actually diverting resources from scant women’s clinics for their penis rights.

Freudian slip? If I were a woman, I’d not be in a hurry to join this club.

Enkara-Trans Anarchist said:

‘Either be an openly transphobic organization or don’t cater to the transphobes, someone’s gonna get alienated.’

Don’t agree with the language but he’s right, you can’t have it both ways. Make up your mind which demographic you are appealing to.

And generally speaking, my hackles rise at the thought of this club that requires members to share beds in the interest of ‘keeping costs down’: a twin room costs no more than a double, surely? $400-500 for a room sounds expensive (I defer to American posters on that score, obviously).

Over the years, I’ve shared rooms and beds with men and women, straight and gay (though predilections can shift surprisingly after a few sherberts) and consider myself lucky to have only been sexually assaulted twice; both times by men unsurprisingly.

I imagine, based both on my own experience and that of my peers that much of the hostility of ‘pretendbians’ toward women stems from the imagined horror of not being found attractive. It must be coming down to Earth with a bump, spending the first 20-30-40 years of your life thinking you’re the bees knees, treating women as slags – and I can’t help but sympathise, being a bloke – and then being treated with the same contempt: fucked and ignored; or just ignored.

Not being fancied is no fun; not being fancied and fucked anyway less so: but you’d think that experience would engender (no pun…) sympathy, wouldn’t you?

At least in the US, you can frequently get “double” rooms that have two “double” beds for the same cost as a room with one king bed. The double beds aren’t that big – 53 inches wide, or 26.5 inches per person. I get these when I travel with my children and the space is pretty intimate. For cost sharing, it means that you can put four people in one room, which would reduce the price considerably.

It must be a cruise. That’s the only thing that explains the high cost and inflexibility of the bed situation, along with having to go along with the men. Those ships mostly have rooms with double beds, and the beds are bolted down. It’s rare for lesbians to have the money to rent an entire ocean liner, so I think they are on the gay cruise with the guys.

[I almost pissed my pants I laughed so hard-]
If they don’t share beds with us, then no one gets to share beds.

Then they actually acknowledged that males make way more than females, and the actual women can’t afford a room on a typical woman’s salary, and some of them actually couldn’t grasp that because of their delusion that they are more oppressed than women.

and the rapey statement:

“The best result would be if you put a transwoman in with some of the other women who said they were OK with it. Even if there was dissonance. Then they can find that is actually fine, it was perfectly safe and any worries they had were overblown. Then maybe they won’t have a problem next time and maybe they will mention to others how problem free it was. Thusly reducing the level of bigotry.’

WTF?
Force the penis on them and make the others say it was ok. Even if there is ‘dissonance’.

dissonance from what? a rape? Why would women want to be forced to pay to have an unpleasant rapist in their room?

What is next for this trainwreck? will they say, “It’s OK, its just a violent child rapist we put in your room, and were all adults here.”

HELL NO. I would not be comfortable sharing a fucking BED with a man. (Trans “woman” with a penis? Sorry, dude. YOU’RE A DUDE.) Also, no way I would ever have the patience to put up with the abuse that these men hurled at the OP. Shit would go DOWN.

Is there such a thing as an honest, non-transphobic answer to that question? Snort!

I suppose the “older” lesbians can take a certain advantage in the disgusting ageism to which they’re subjected, and just open their mouths and let their answers fly without mincing words: “Because they are male — men, I say, because they are MEN!”

Why don’t the “trans girls” form their own club? I know, it wouldn’t be as much fun. You’re not invading anything. You don’t get the pleasure of pissing everyone off. You’re not the center of attention and worst of all you have to spend time with other “transgirls”.

They should pair up the pretendbians in the double beds and let them squirm. After a night of inhaling each other’s breath and begging the other one doesn’t get a hard-on I doubt they’d be calling their extreme discomfort ‘dissonance’.

This reads like a nightmare parody, which is exacly what trans cult-speak is like. Unbelievable, yet clever in the assumptions made which keep the lies going, which is of course that Lesbians who say no to men are bigots and need to be trained to unlearn common sense.

As bad as things have gotten, who thought it would ever be like this, where Lesbians are chastized for not wanting to be in bed with het men perving on them? “Transgirls?” Seriously? Have they not looked at the lurching pricks with their grotesque testosterone faces that no amount of surgery can hide?

Given how many trans dudes work in IT, it’s ironic that everyone in that thread is ignoring the obvious– online sign ups where people looking for a roommate share key details that might be off putting to strangers (passes out drunk, allergic to cigarette smoke, snores, has long, fleshy, spooge-producing mass between legs), and then allow people to make their own match, booking their own reservation in the block reserved by the organizer. Like adults. I belong to an online hobby forum, and members somehow manage this yearly without incident. Many book with people they know in real life, and a hardy (foolish) few book with people they’ve just met. No forum administrator intervenes. If you have traits people consider creepy, you just won’t get a roomie, and then it’s up to you to book a single if you really want to attend. But off course that would necessitate these dudes actually being honest about who they are, and dealing with the fact that 99.999% of people are deeply uncomfortable around them. It’s odd that a trip organizer would be taking it upon herself to decide who sleeps with whom. Even kids in high school get to make their own choice of roommate should their school do an overnight trip. Yet this group of adults has so infantilized themselves that they need someone else to force those bad lesbians to let them into their beds.

This would be great only IF they ID as trans. but we all know the odds of that. they will call themselves women, lesbians, or both. (Im guessing the T in the LGBT means T can be hetero or homo)
I can see it now- a lesbian joins to meet people, picks another lesbian from the list, and then gets stuck with a MAN.
Otherwise, good idea. If no one wants to be w you, buy your own room. Of course EVERY excuse not to sleep w someone is OK, except not wanting to sleep with penis…

I think the hotel choice is catering to the guy male majority of this club, as they tentend to be in a very high income bracket compared to lesbians (but probably not MTTs, given the number of engineers in that group). I find it interesting that the gay majority of this group isn’t being asked to lift a finger. If it’s okay for a current/former penis owner to bunk with a lesbian, why not with a gay man? Supposedly nothing is going to happen either way, given the true flaccid nature of trans peen. But the MTTs would miss out on the pillow fights, toe nail painting and hair braiding,as Teal Deer mentioned,. Clearly that’s justification enough, and out weighs any silly concerns a person might have about her own safety.

It’s interesting that the gay men being uncomfortable at sharing with lesbians doesn’t get themselves labelled as phobic and bigoted despite the fact that the likelihood of a lesbian sexually assaulting a gay man must be incredibly rare. Of course male preferences are real and rational, whereas women just have over-active imaginations. Could it be that these gay men know a dude in a dress when they see one and also don’t relish the thought of sharing a bed with a straight, male gender fundamentalist who’d probably be out beating up gay guys if he was more alpha?

It seems like the easiest way around all this is to say okay folks, we have this group rate here, you can reserve x y or z, you can have up to x number of people in the room, work it out yourselves. The idea that anybody owes it to anyone to room with them is coercive, the subject of trans doesn’t actually have to enter into it. I don’t see any benefit in encouraging people to room with strangers, and the more the organizer gets involved in such decisions the greater liability she and the organization have if someone gets attacked. The people who participate in this can actually work out an independent bulletin board if they want to mess around with rooming with strangers and it doesn’t have to be specific to this organization. Trans love to police people so create a structure that makes that more difficult, don’t play playground cop.

“Let them go join a TERF group somewhere else. Like seriously, you should just make it a lgb group if you’re going to take them seriously.”

Wait, we can do that? The men have finally given us permission? No death/rape/suicide threats this time? I’m skeptical.

“It should be noted that Title IX would prohibit this kind of discrimination in a public school. ”
Well, it should also be noted that this is not a public school and even if it were there are accommodations provided for both men and women. It’s just some men are angry that the meager accommodations afforded to the women aren’t offered up on a silver platter because they feel entitled to it.

It’s odd to see all the suggestions telling her to just openly run a trans-exclusive group, when we’ve seen what happens to women-only organizations or events as soon as the laydee-men see they aren’t welcome.

The whole thread of conversation is ridiculous, although not too surprising with all I’ve seen before. The “this sounds illegal” statement, answered with “not illegal, but unethical” is what really did my head in. How could refusing to share a bed with someone possibly be considered illegal or unethical, whatever the reason?

The OP in the thread stated the trans she’d roomed with had had bottom surgery, but we all know we aren’t “allowed” to ask about surgical status. So, in this case of Schrodinger’s genitals, these women’s safest course is to assume any trans “girl” is still intact, and take appropriate precautions.

Has Title IX protections already been litigated in this regard? I know California has blown open the barn doors in terms of forcing schools to house girls with trans girls and allow trans girls (regardless of Lupon/hormone status) to play on girls’ sport teams, but I’m finding it hard to believe the feds are already on board with that.

It seems to me that the only people being discriminated against with regards to bed arrangements are the lesbian women. The gay men don’t want to share a bed with trans and their choices are not called out as transphobic and they get their beds. The trans people don’t want to share a bed with gay men and they aren’t called out as bigoted, but are encouraged in prioritizing their desire to feel that they ‘pass’ as women over another person’s discomfort. So everyone can say who they DON’T want to share a bed with, except lesbian women. I can’t think of any woman I know who would feel comfortable with making someone else feel uncomfortable IN BED, just to prove a personal point. Women don’t do that to each other in a place that is so intimate–and not necessarily because they are being nice, but because it makes women uncomfortable to be in another’s intimate space when it makes the other person uncomfortable. That, however, is NOT true of many of the men I know.

The idea of being expected to share a bed with these men is leading to suicidal ideation….my vowels can barely be contained. Gay men won’t make them feel like laydees because these are straight male predators intent on killing our lesbian essence with their rapey syntax and their nasty soul destroying intrusion….this is lesbicide

“I can’t think of much worse than having your identity invalidated by your peers actually – it’s a serious issue.”

If they really can’t think of a lot of things worse than that…they really do lead a privileged life.

Also…why is it that women need to view MtT as 100% real women like any other, but if the two trans people have to share, then it’s exclusion. Exclusion from what? They’re both women, right? No different from any other, so what’s the problem? So women need to view them as 100% authentic women, but trans people are under no similar obligation to view each other as 100% authentic women. OK.

^Yes, this seems to be the case. Why are women being expected to provide free entertainment when they don’t want to be put in each other’s company to play ‘woman’?

The only exception is when they get together to organize an attack on women that puts them in power over women’s activities to get a sexual advantage, and they even get straight boys with sexual insecurities about females & MRAs to join in. Somehow, it is amusing to sexually frustrated men to ruin female groups when they don’t get sex. It replaces that conquer feeling when they are refused sex. It is a domination tactic. Males that stand up to the bulling, are subject to harassment for not following the male lead. It is an unhealthy type of socialization that follows a rule that what you can’t control other people sexually, destroy them. With women out of the way, children become targets and sacrifices for their sexual needs without a thought to their future.

The white elephant is the basis of all the shit women are being subjected to:, Men demanding that women not available to them, be forced to comply with their sexual fantasies in real life. It ain’t going to happen.

Women will just drop out of mainstream events, reorganize [by invite only] until it becomes safe for females to meet in public without men invading to demand free sexual entertainment from them.

It’s only the ridiculously privileged who are on about the pronouns all the time. All of us who have ever looked butch have been “misgendered.” Who cares? We have real concerns to deal with, like trying to just stay alive in a world of male violence. What I’d give to have pronouns be my biggest problem.

These people really can’t see how utterly insane they have become. We have gone past the “Emperor Has No Clothes” stage and ventured out into a parallel universe of political correct lunacy. If it weren’t so suffocatingly sexist, demeaning to women, pervy, and creepy, it would be hilarious. Women, and I mean all women, need to run, run , run away from these people as fast and far as they can because they don’t care about women. Respecting a woman’s personal boundaries means nothing to these people, and men who will shred, crap on, and willingly violate a woman’s boundaries time and time again are dangerous. Women know all too well that a man doesn’t have to rape or assault a woman to get off on getting into her space and violating her. I would characterize this arrangement as something akin to oppressive sexual harassment.

Moreover, it’s a fact that transgender identified males have raped women, and people who read this and other blogs know about Christopher, “Jessica”, Hambrook who identified as transgender just long enough to gain access to women’s shelters where he sexually assaulted homeless women. I’m freaking sure these people will do a thorough background check. I would feel safer sleeping out in the street next to a drunk wino than having to share a bed or motel room with Hambrook or registered sex offender Paula Witherspoon.

This sexist morons are too busy kissing ass, and bending over backwards to be politically correct that they don’t check to see: (a.) if he still has his penis, and (b.) if he is sex offender.

Apparently, it doesn’t matter if the transwoman still has his dick or not. They don’t bring up this delicate, taboo subject because they are too busy kissing ass. People would be surprised to discover how many still have their penis and testicles. Besides, as an earlier post pointed out, it’s highly unlikely that this person or organization is going to act as official gate keeper, and to actually check it out. They are too kowtowed into politically correct submission least they offend anyone to actually inquire as to whether or not he still has dick and balls. To even ask is considered insensitive and “transphobic”. Indeed, the way it works now with most “gender identity” laws, it’s discriminatory to even ask if he still has his penis and testicles. Or, it’s common for intact transwomen to act all huffy and offended and go on about, “my genitals are none of your business”. When they go on about “my genitals are none of your business” and how transphobic it is to ask, it’s a sure bet he still has his dick. If they expect to share a bed or bedroom with a woman, it is my business.

Even if they take female hormones, males can still get erections. Hormones might diminish the frequency or intensity, but it doesn’t completely eliminate erections. Yes, he can still get it up even if he is on hormones. So, a woman has to share a bed with a transwoman and notices something poking her in back. Gee, is that a flashlight, or what fu** is it. When a woman pays good money for a hotel room the last thing she wants to see is some strange guy with an erection walking around her motel room. I guess it’s not really an erection if the guy is wearing panties instead of boxers. Christ on a crutch, these people are freaking insane.

His junk works better than it did before! –

“In my case, with the right fantasy when solo or with the right scenario when with a partner, my junk works better than it did before. Like, seriously. There’s a very specific ritual that I go through to get there(basically, foreplaying myself), but once there, he works like a champ. The whole experience is affected by HRT, and certainly different than when I was on testosterone. Also, my libido hasn’t decreased one iota – the expression of it has changed. Yay, unicorn me”

Although the “(b.) If he is a sex offender” bit doesn’t seem to mean anything to the trans community, and we aren’t supposed to hold it against them, so long as they were caught while under their “deadname” and/or it was a “long time” ago, as the recent chatter about Allison Woolbert has revealed.

Having lived with a man who, years into the relationship, finally revealed he wants to be a woman and following him down the rabbit hole which is The Trans Community – I can assure you that sharing a bed isn’t the only invasive action to which those lesbians & bisexual females will be subject.

The voyeuristic creepiness of sharing any space with a male-born transgender cannot be overemphasized:

They study you constantly, memorizing your every move and gesture as a live training session for how they should act “as women”.

They question you repeatedly with how you would respond in “what if” scenarios, trying to either prove their Laydee Brain is real or trying to learn how a typical woman would respond/behave/react, as if we are all some homogenous cookie cutter creatures.

They excessively compliment you while denigrating themselves, waiting expectantly for your return compliment and false assurance that there is nothing wrong with their looks, clothes, voice, manners, etc.

They ask invasive questions about your childhood and youth, appropriating your girlhood for their own narratives.

Regardless the state of their penis, they are males. They are not females. And no woman should be shamed and coerced into sharing her life with them. That is gaslighting. It is psychological abuse.

Anyways, it quickly becomes apparent that the guy’s whole bigender schtick is a form of grooming his wife for his intended lifestyle autogynephilia. Not unlike the old intersex bee sting.

Of course the “scientific” reporter is a clueless hetero with no knowledge of the GLBT whatsoever and it all flies completely over her head: she swallows the whole thing hook line and sinker. But anyone in the trans or feminist communities will IMMEDIATELY clock his grooming gaslighting ass.

SPOILER ALERT: His wife eventually leaves him and he drops the whole routine and is “cured” by transitioning to “female”.

Check it out if you want- I’m quite sure it will give you a laugh (or maybe a post!).😉
x

What you describe happened to me. Went to a workshop on GLBT community organizing. When we did break out sessions on one-to-one interactions, I got paired with a MtT facilitator. Once he found out I was a lesbian, he was giving me “the look” and asking me to help him understand what woman-to-woman intimacy was “really like.” And following me into the bathroom to continue the “discussion.” Big freaking ICK. I have had nothing to do with this organization since then. And this MtT is still involved with them as a “trainer” (harasser) and whining about how hard transwomen have it.

Surprise surprise didn’t his laydee brain instinctively inform him about ‘ women on women intimacy ‘ or has he got psycholinguistic amnesia ? Was Following you into the toilet a study in phonetic urination? Rapey to say the least

“….sharing a bed isn’t the only invasive action to which those lesbians & bisexual females will be subject.”

I agree.
They will be a captive audience while the trannys preen and primp, hogging the bathroom (with the door open of course).
All their girly things artfully displayed on the vanities and their lingerie carefully arranged in the closet (with the door open of course). We can’t neglect giving the housekeepers a little visual treat while they pick up the pile of towels off the floor.
Your reason for being is to applaud and appreciate their time consuming little performances of grooming rituals ~ like loudly slapping on moisturizer over every inch of their freshly shaven, powdered, perfumed skin or delicately polishing their toenails on size 15 feet.
And if you fail to do so…
Well then, you can just expect a little pout, a little snit and perhaps a few tears.
They’ll find every reason under the sun to run around the place in their sexaaay nighties and kitten heels, a quick trip to the ice machine, an elevator ride to the parking lot for a forgotten item, insisting on answering the door for room service or simply draping themselves provocatively on the balcony.
Sounds like fun, huh?

When they use words such as “cis lesbians”, you know they are drowning in the Kool Aid. They bought into trans* thought speak hook, line, and sinker. There is no such thing as “cis lesbians”. There are only lesbians, and lesbians aren’t born with a penis. “Cis” means a person who doesn’t identify as transgender. According to trans* logic, there are “cis lesbians” and “trans lesbians”, and woe to the person who tells them otherwise. Did transgender activists ask women if they wanted to be called “Cis”? I never did like the word. It sounds too much like cyst to me. They have the audacity to say that women have “Cis Privilege” as if living in a misogynistic rape culture that constantly devalues women is some kind of privilege that woman laud over transgender people. Did they ask lesbians how they feel about males calling themselves “lesbian”? We know they basically told lesbians to screw you when they complained about the offensive “Cotton Ceiling”.

I argue that rewriting the very definition of lesbian is homophobic on its face. Lesbians are deeply emotionally, spiritually, and sexually attracted to women. If homosexuality isn’t based on same sex sexual attraction, then what is it based upon? Because the biology and anatomy are still different even after sex reassignment surgery, a male will never in a million years experience sexual pleasure exactly the way a woman does. It’s not going to happen. It’s an insult to the female sex, and lesbians in particular to say that transwomen (biological males) know how lesbians feel.

I hope the WhoIsCis blog doesn’t object to me posting a link to this article :

“Put words in my mouth, I’m Going to Spit Them Out”

by whoiscis

“With respect to Homosexuality: My belief, in accordance with the definition of homosexuality, is that homosexuality only exist between people of the same sex. Again, it’s a sex based term, and separate from gender. No male person is a lesbian and no female person is a gay man. As is often documented on this blog and on the FB page, there is a growing resistance to this definition of homosexual. Trans activist and their allies wish to broaden what “homosexual” means to include themselves in it. Indeed homosexuality exist among trans people.

When heterosexuals assert that they are homosexual, despite the reality of their biological sex ,they are engaging in assimilation tactics against homosexual people ,which ultimately will lead to the erasure of homosexuals and homosexuality.

Lets be clear though, date who you love, be happy in your love, I support you in your love, I just don’t support the co-opting of the terms “homosexual”, “gay” and “lesbian” , and as an actual gay person find these tactics incredibly offensive.”

A big part of what I hate about “cis privilege” is that much of it comes down to the fact that we don’t experience “dysphoria”.

How is that a “privilege”? Is it a privilege for me to be healthy when other people have cancer? In terms of how society views sick people, being healthy carries privilege in the sense that well people aren’t viewed as being a burden, but, just in the most basic terms of health vs. illness, there’s no privilege. It comes down to good luck vs. bad luck.

I’m not “privileged” for not having a mental disorder.

And transbians invading lesbian identity and lesbian spaces is exactly the same thing, to my mind, as when straight “cis” men message lesbians on dating sites.

From what I understand, some dating sites for lesbians lost all their legitimate members due to crap like this, men harassing lesbians because they fetishize lesbians and refuse to take “no” for an answer. Identity does not overrule the reality of male entitlement. A straight man who feels like a woman inside (whatever the hell that means) needs to back off. And the fact that many (most) won’t, not only demonstrates their maleness, but it also seems to be leading to the natural conclusion: all the actual lesbians abandon ship and all that’s left is a sausagefest.

The pretendbians are accomplishing something non-trans hetero men never did: driving real-life lesbian events underground. Which prevents other actual lesbians from finding them. They are bullying lesbians out of public life.

Lesbians can no longer announce or advertise public events, or organize.

Yes, women do absolutely have dysphoria, but we don’t get that dysphoria “treated” with plastic surgery paid for by insurance, and I’ve never heard a dysphoric woman claim that other women are “privileged” over her for not feeling it necessary to starve ourselves or otherwise mutilate our bodies (at least to the degree that dysphoric women are driven to do that, almost all women hate their appearance to some degree though).

The pretendbians are accomplishing something non-trans hetero men never did: driving real-life lesbian events underground. Which prevents other actual lesbians from finding them. They are bullying lesbians out of public life.

Lesbians can no longer announce or advertise public events, or organize.

*”(2) I could house the two trans girls together in the same bed, but that would also draw attention to the most obvious thing they have in common, which is that they are not cis. And even those that did indicate that they were okay sharing a bed seemed to do so with some dissonance. Plus the first trans girl was accustomed to sharing a bed with me and was expecting to do the same this trip.”

-but that would also draw attention to the most obvious thing they have in common, which is that they are_________.

This is what bothers me, if they don’t even accept each other as women, why do they put it on women, complete strangers, they don’t know to validate them? Shouldn’t the trans community be supportive and accepting of each other? Investing in effective treatments for depression[suicidal people are depressed].??

*”The majority of the club consists of gay men and many of the gay men have indicated that they are not comfortable sharing with women straight or cis and vice versa, so many feel that it is okay to say no to trans bed partners too.”

So it is OK for men to have a choice of not being housed with women in any form[because they are gay], but gay women[lesbians] don’t share this right?

And here was the reply on Black female solidarity that don’t want to bunk with [what is most likely] a white Trans:

*”By allowing this kind of transphobia you run a transphobic club. Period. And then you have the gall to come on here and ask for advice? This is your problem. Not ours.
I honestly think this is one of the most revolting posts ever put on r/asktrans. Seriously. It’s nauseating to think OP feels she is being compassionate by reaching out to trans people in order to ask our opinion on her own transphobia and bigotry.”

Maybe it is just me, but -It seems racist, sexist and offensive for a white born-male to imply that it is a civil right to buy a night in bed with three black lesbians on their vacation. That s really offensive and scary that men are looking for legal ways to occupy the private space and beds of women not interested in them.

And yet the OP stayed in the thread, giving no indication that she sees she is being verbally abused. In any case, I have my doubts about whether this whole thing is real or just creative writing. I have never heard of a $500 hotel room (or even a $89 hotel room) where you just can’t ask the management to roll in an extra cot. Come to think of it, I have barely heard of $500 hotel rooms at all, except high-end luxury suites in places like Aspen or NYC, which are not the kind of places you book for group trips.

It might be a more credible tale if the OP shared what the organization/event was. If it is creative writing and/or an attempt to stir up drama, though, that’s one way to delay being found out as a liar.

It made me wonder what kind of advice she thought she’d get by asking transgenders. Of course they’re gonna see any limitation on them as a horrible injustice and phobia. Did she think they’d come up with a cute little lottery or something?

I also kept wondering, why bother. Let them form their own groups. At most, provide a forum for them to advertise open beds. But simple solutions were not to be had when feelings were involved.

It’s an LGBT group. The men are the G. They have their own sleeping arrangements. The women are L. They have their own. So let the B’s and the T’s have their own. No double dipping in more than one group.

Cis lesbians? Wow you have not only drunk the kool aid, you went back for seconds. It is not transphobic to protect women. It is not transphobic to not want to share a bed with someone who is not a woman. The fact you are agonizing this is an indication of how women have internalized the misogyny and sexism that is fed to us since birth. Just because someone is trans does not mean they have the right to dictate what women will or should do. Insisting on doing so is an example of their male sense of entitlement and privilege being used to coerce women into doing as men say. Stop feeding into the trans nonsense.

“Wow you have not only drunk the kool aid, you went back for seconds.”

And thirds. And fourths. It’s all about the repetition and normalization of senseless and unpalatable ideas. While adult lesbians and all women and girls are being battered by trans ideologies, at least adult women, even as they struggle to protect their bodies and their spaces, have some psychological/intellectual defences against this abuse. It’s girls, teens, and young adult women I worry for the most.

Consider this typical Tumblr post, which is nearly identical to posts you can find almost any day of the week from a distressed young lesbian who fears she may be “transmisogynistic”:

“I feel extremely awful for saying this. But I’m a lesbian, and I often feel transphobic. If a woman who were trans were to want to persue a relationship with me, id have to decline. Having PTSD from rape (from a man with a penis), I’d never be able to love her fully nor accept her. Men terrify me most times and I know that a lot of lesbians feel this same way. Is this still transphobic?”

The replies she got were, of course, abusive and rapist. With one or two radical feminists rushing in to try to offer some protection and undo some of the damage.

Which brings us right back to woman-only spaces, which barely exist even on the Internet. Young women like this one really need other, more experienced women to witness what is happening to them — what is being DONE to them — in real time. To share survival strategies, feminist theory, thoughts, ideas and everyday emotional support.

Yeah, it’s here, and it’s out there, too, in a diffuse kind of way. But do you hear the terrible isolation and desperation in her voice?

In case people aren’t sure about the .gif (animated graphic), “Scissor Me Timbers”, it’s Mr. Garrison from South Park. It’s on youtube, and someone apparently made a .gif out of it. Mr. Garrison is the bald headed guy with glasses who got a sex change.

I love South Park, and liked the episode, “Mr. Garrison gets a fancy new vagina”.

Gallus, good choice of graphics. We have to laugh at all of this sh** or would we go crazy.

And other kinds of rape. Many of us will never be able to sleep in a house with male acquaintances in it, never mind strangers. Anyone who doesn’t understand why doesn’t understand what it’s like to live in this world as a female.

And Mr. Garrison also de transitioned too! Lol Hey🙂 Im a long time lurker here. But I couldn’t resist letting you all know that Mr. Garrison de transitioned too cause he missed his penis.
I guess with this post I am coming out as a gender critical feminist. I am a black female in my early 30s living in California. nice to meet you all🙂

Gallusmag, I’ve been reading genderr render and articles on radfemcentral for a year now. You are very brave. Please know that this whole everyone catering to trans nonsense is mainly an online thing. I’ve never met anyone in person who believes their women. Maybe that’s the way it is with blacks and Hispanics but yea I’ve never seen this madness until I started visiting mainstream feminist websites.

Unfortunately, it’s not just an online thing. It’s just louder and more widespread online. I know someone who had a coworker transition in his workplace, and the whole place was turned upside-down for him. The ladies’ room closest to his office had alterations done on the stalls to eliminate the gaps, and the women were told that he could use any of the women’s restrooms. If they had a problem with him being in the same restroom as them, it was up to them to leave. Everyone also got the pronoun and new name lecture, and during every meeting to prep the staff for the change (he took a week off when these meetings were taking place), there was a clear, underlying message that if anyone didn’t toe the line, they’d be fired.
It all happened very fast, too. He told management at the end of the week prior to his week off, and they had to scramble to figure out how to manage the workplace transition within a week.

re. Staci’s comment that no-one in real life suffers this nonsense – Sadly, you’re wrong, Staci. I briefly attended a supposedly ‘women-only’ drumming group. I was so excited about it: I really, really wanted to spend time making music with other women and lesbians, and was hoping it would help me with the problems I had at the time around social isolation and poor mental health. The person teaching was… you guessed it… a ‘transwoman’. [‘She’ was the only MtT there: big shock, right?] I made it through three meetings before realising that the whole thing was making me much more ill – I was actually disassociating throughout the meetings themselves, and then very unstable mentally for the next several days. So I stopped going. I emailed them to say that I wasn’t coming back because obviously their definition of ‘woman’ was different from mine – and they replied that *they didn’t know what I was talking about*. Bang goes another women’s (and lesbians’) space…

Yes they are Staci. The Atlanta Police Department just revised their SOP to be more accomodating to trans. Such things as pronouns and not using their “deadnames”. That sounds dangerous because no other criminals are allowed to use aliases. But get this, they will be searched by their gender, which means female officers will now be searching autogynephilic males who may well be aroused by the procedure. Even worse trans are still bitching because they had no input in the development of the SOP. Remember, these are well to do white males, they will always be taken seriously. Of course the cops know what time it is, but they’re willing to throw female officers under the bus to accomodate white men.

LOL forever at how your coworker is totes a woman but the management of your company understands the inherent risks and revamped the bathroom to compensate. But good on them for doing that and not just requiring women to be okay with a man invading their privacy.

On the Talk page for the Wikipedia article on Mr. Garrison, you can find choice remarks like

‘A trans person is considered to be trans both before and after their transition. She may not have been “out” as trans until recently, but she was still the same woman the whole time. She’s just living as a woman now, and has also had reconstructive surgery to fix her female body’

‘Mrs. Garrison is clearly a woman and currently identifies as such. Please read the articles on woman and transsexuality if you are still confused. Your edits show ignorance on the topic of gender. You shoud leave the gender spects of the article to people who actually understand how gender identity works, e.g. Alex and myself’

Since we’re on this topic, Season 3, Episode 16 (“Death by Tampon”) is also pretty funny. The boys become fascinated by feminine hygiene products but never really figure out what they’re actually for. They do, however, start using pads (except for poor Kenny…) and form a women’s spirituality group that meets in the treehouse. Cartman starts calling himself Goddess Silvermoon or something like that.

gawd, the male entitlement oozing from them…the thread starter all but says they deserve sex and they don’t care if they are really lesbian or not, they will piss all over ALL of the sections to get it.

I think my “peak trans” moment was when I was confronted with feminist sites/organisations putting forth the notion of the female body as inherently offensive (Hmm, where have I heard that before?). The worst part is how this is touted as cutting-edge feminist theory.

Where have I heard this before? Men declaring that Women’s bodies are too dirty or offensive for women or men to acknowledge. Men are the default human. Women are not allowed to develop a culture as actual human beings, or learn, or talk about their physical existence as humans, even with other women, because men don’t want to believe they exist as full humans. Did we go back to the 1890s?

Wow. If I weren’t already familiar with the selfishness of trans, I would find their comments back to the female organizer unbelievable. But, unfortunately, there comments are believable.
What trans don’t get, their desires don’t trump others rights. Nobody should have to share a room with someone they don’t want to, and the best thing for the trip organizer to do is post a list of people who are looking for room sharing partners, and then let them decide among themselves who they want to share a room with. Even if ones reasons for not wanting to share a room were superficial or ridiculous (and I certainly don’t believe this concerning transwomen, women have a valid reason for not wanting to share rooms with them)…..but at the extreme, even if their reasons were ridiculous, it is still their right not to share a room. And as this is ancilliary to the purpose of this club, it should not be held against anyone who doesn’t want to share a room with any other person.
Groups need to start standing up for the rights (ie right of privacy) of ALL their members, not just the desires (“I want to share a room with a non-transgender person who doesn’t want to share the room with me”) of a few of the members.