theadmiral

Can you call it profiling If you call the cops when you see someone who doesn't frequent your neighborhood and you're the neighborhood watch? He lived in a gated community after all, I'd assume he knew most of his neighbors and seeing someone out so late at night who he has never seen before would ring an alarm.

You should read up on the case if you want to have a devils advocate argument. 7PM "So late at night"?

Hodgey.

Maybe it would of been a different outcome, but the only reason it made the news in the first place was because the media wanted to potray it as a white on black crime to get higher ratings.

To be fair, it is a fact that Zimmerman racially profiled Martin regardless of what actually happened in the confrontation after that.

Is it? I don't remember the case honestly. I only remember the media distorting his 9-11 call to make it sound like a racially charged event.

Thats what i remeber too. I recall them playing the tape where they thought Zimmerman said 'Coon' time after time after time. However dont remember the news saying that they where wrong and Zimmerman didn't say that, they just moved onto the next piece of evidence they thought would get Zimmerman into trouble.

Plus to be fair everyone profiles each other the first time we see someone.

Yeah, it is true, the media tried to make it worse. But he did call 911 because he saw a black person walking, and he did chase a guy for no reason after 911 told him not to. He had a history of being an overzealous watchman who failed to become a cop over and over again, and a history of calling 911 for stuff like that.

He was trying to look after his neighborhood and thought that Trayvon may of been a problem, the problem is that everyone made it a race crime when it wasn't. The races should of never of been an issue but everyone makes it a issue when there doesn't need to be one. Plus a operator told him to stand down not a police officer.

If a unkown black youth was in my neighborhood i would be suspicious, I think everyone would and people who say they wouln't are either lying or foolish.

Frank Brown

Can you call it profiling If you call the cops when you see someone who doesn't frequent your neighborhood and you're the neighborhood watch? He lived in a gated community after all, I'd assume he knew most of his neighbors and seeing someone out so late at night who he has never seen before would ring an alarm.

You should read up on the case if you want to have a devils advocate argument. 7PM "So late at night"?

Replace that with "in the evening", "at night", or "at the break of dawn", and the point would still stand. If you see someone you've never seen before in a tight-knit community, would you be suspicious or not?

theadmiral

Maybe it would of been a different outcome, but the only reason it made the news in the first place was because the media wanted to potray it as a white on black crime to get higher ratings.

To be fair, it is a fact that Zimmerman racially profiled Martin regardless of what actually happened in the confrontation after that.

Is it? I don't remember the case honestly. I only remember the media distorting his 9-11 call to make it sound like a racially charged event.

Thats what i remeber too. I recall them playing the tape where they thought Zimmerman said 'Coon' time after time after time. However dont remember the news saying that they where wrong and Zimmerman didn't say that, they just moved onto the next piece of evidence they thought would get Zimmerman into trouble.

Plus to be fair everyone profiles each other the first time we see someone.

Yeah, it is true, the media tried to make it worse. But he did call 911 because he saw a black person walking, and he did chase a guy for no reason after 911 told him not to. He had a history of being an overzealous watchman who failed to become a cop over and over again, and a history of calling 911 for stuff like that.

He was trying to look after his neighborhood and thought that Trayvon may of been a problem, the problem is that everyone made it a race crime when it wasn't. The races should of never of been an issue but everyone makes it a issue when there doesn't need to be one. Plus a operator told him to stand down not a police officer.

If a unkown black youth was in my neighborhood i would be suspicious, I think everyone would and people who say they wouln't are either lying or foolish.

I see unknown black youths in my neighborhood all the time and couldn't care less. Certainly wouldn't call 911.

Hodgey.

Maybe it would of been a different outcome, but the only reason it made the news in the first place was because the media wanted to potray it as a white on black crime to get higher ratings.

To be fair, it is a fact that Zimmerman racially profiled Martin regardless of what actually happened in the confrontation after that.

Is it? I don't remember the case honestly. I only remember the media distorting his 9-11 call to make it sound like a racially charged event.

Thats what i remeber too. I recall them playing the tape where they thought Zimmerman said 'Coon' time after time after time. However dont remember the news saying that they where wrong and Zimmerman didn't say that, they just moved onto the next piece of evidence they thought would get Zimmerman into trouble.

Plus to be fair everyone profiles each other the first time we see someone.

Yeah, it is true, the media tried to make it worse. But he did call 911 because he saw a black person walking, and he did chase a guy for no reason after 911 told him not to. He had a history of being an overzealous watchman who failed to become a cop over and over again, and a history of calling 911 for stuff like that.

He was trying to look after his neighborhood and thought that Trayvon may of been a problem, the problem is that everyone made it a race crime when it wasn't. The races should of never of been an issue but everyone makes it a issue when there doesn't need to be one. Plus a operator told him to stand down not a police officer.

If a unkown black youth was in my neighborhood i would be suspicious, I think everyone would and people who say they wouln't are either lying or foolish.

I see unknown black youths in my neighborhood all the time and couldn't care less.

Wow. Just leave your doors and windows open then if you are so trusting.

theadmiral

Wow. Just leave your doors and windows open then if you are so trusting.

You seem to be making a point that seeing an unknown black person in your neighborhood is more suspicious than seeing an unknown white person. That is exactly the way Zimmerman was feeling, which is why I said he profiled, regardless of who was at fault in the resulting confrontation.

John Smith

Maybe it would of been a different outcome, but the only reason it made the news in the first place was because the media wanted to potray it as a white on black crime to get higher ratings.

To be fair, it is a fact that Zimmerman racially profiled Martin regardless of what actually happened in the confrontation after that.

Is it? I don't remember the case honestly. I only remember the media distorting his 9-11 call to make it sound like a racially charged event.

Thats what i remeber too. I recall them playing the tape where they thought Zimmerman said 'Coon' time after time after time. However dont remember the news saying that they where wrong and Zimmerman didn't say that, they just moved onto the next piece of evidence they thought would get Zimmerman into trouble.

Plus to be fair everyone profiles each other the first time we see someone.

Yeah, it is true, the media tried to make it worse. But he did call 911 because he saw a black person walking, and he did chase a guy for no reason after 911 told him not to. He had a history of being an overzealous watchman who failed to become a cop over and over again, and a history of calling 911 for stuff like that.

He was trying to look after his neighborhood and thought that Trayvon may of been a problem, the problem is that everyone made it a race crime when it wasn't. The races should of never of been an issue but everyone makes it a issue when there doesn't need to be one. Plus a operator told him to stand down not a police officer.

If a unkown black youth was in my neighborhood i would be suspicious, I think everyone would and people who say they wouln't are either lying or foolish.

I see unknown black youths in my neighborhood all the time and couldn't care less. Certainly wouldn't call 911.

Hodgey.

Wow. Just leave your doors and windows open then if you are so trusting.

You seem to be making a point that seeing an unknown black person in your neighborhood is more suspicious than seeing an unknown white person. That is exactly the way Zimmerman was feeling, which is why I said he profiled, regardless of who was at fault in the resulting confrontation.

No.

Im making the point that if a UNKOWN person black or white, asian etc was in your neighborhood and was acting suspiciously you would watch him or her to see what they where up to. Thats all Zimmerman did until....................... well he killed him.

theadmiral

Plus the operator told him not to follow, not the police. The operator has no say over what someone should do or not, they aren't enforcers of the law.

Why even call then if you are advocating vigilante justice? I don't know. The place I live is 50 percent black, 30 percent white. Maybe I am well off on this. I see suspicious people all the time, you are aware, you look over your shoulder, but you certainly don't call 911/999 and then chase someone down with your gun and try to hold an innocent person against their will until the cops arrive.

If you were roaming around at night and some guy came up to you and told you that you cannot go anywhere until the cops arrive, what would you do? I'd tell him to f*ck right off and go about my business. And that is what the kid did - And then he got shot.

I think our situations are so different that it is hard to reach an agreement on this. If I lived in a quaint village where I knew everyone I may feel differently.

Plus the operator told him not to follow, not the police. The operator has no say over what someone should do or not, they aren't enforcers of the law.

Why even call then if you are advocating vigilante justice? I don't know. The place I live is 50 percent black, 30 percent white. Maybe I am well off on this. I see suspicious people all the time, you are aware, you look over your shoulder, but you certainly don't call 911/999 and then chase someone down with your gun and try to hold an innocent person against their will until the cops arrive.

If you were roaming around at night and some guy came up to you and told you that you cannot go anywhere until the cops arrive, what would you do? I'd tell him to f*ck right off and go about my business. And that is what the kid did - And then he got shot.

I think our situations are so different that it is hard to reach an agreement on this. If I lived in a quaint village where I knew everyone I may feel differently.

Maybe you would feel differently. I am not advocating what Zimmerman did but from what i remember Trayvon wasn't exactly the nice kid that the media protrayed him to be and didn't he also hit Zimmerman first. (I forget the detail of the case now)

theadmiral

Admiral, have you ever lived in a gated community where everyone knew each other on a first name basis?

I've lived in a gated building and I can say I knew my immediate neighbors and no one else, and my car windows got broken and tires slashed in that same gated building. Shrug. Also, the place Zimmerman was living had tons of apartments and I seriously doubt he knew everyone there on a first name basis.

Hodgey - Who hit who is up for debate and was not proven since Trayvon is dead, ZImmerman is alive, and there is only one side of the story to be told.

theadmiral

Bear in mind that he was part of the neighbourhood watch so he undoubtedly felt some responsibility.

This is true, but neighborhood watch has the duty to call 911 and inform people, not play police officer (when you've been rejected by the police force over and over again) and illegally detain innocent people. In fact, they are specifically NOT allowed to chase or detain anyone. They have no power to do anything.

The qualifications for being a watchman are literally to sign up with your homeowners association, nothing more.

Frank Brown

Admiral, have you ever lived in a gated community where everyone knew each other on a first name basis?

I've lived in a gated building and I can say I knew my immediate neighbors and no one else, and my car windows got broken and tires slashed in that same gated building. Shrug. Also, the place Zimmerman was living had tons of apartments and I seriously doubt he knew everyone there on a first name basis.

Hodgey - Who hit who is up for debate and was not proven since Trayvon is dead, ZImmerman is alive, and there is only one side of the story to be told.

Fair point, upon further observation those homes appear to be pretty large and for multiple families. And his home was pretty far from the location of the shooting.

theadmiral

And this goes back to my original point that people should leave Zimmerman alone as there is no proof that he killed Trayvon intentionally.

You are right, he was found not guilty, and I would have found him not guilty if I was on the jury.

If we are talking about probable scenarios though, we have an overzealous neighborhood watchman who failed to become a police officer, carrying around a gun, calling 911 on an innocent person, being told not to chase the kid, then chasing the kid, trying to illegally detain him, getting punched in the face because he got in over his head, then pulling his gun and shooting the kid to death . Then, exploiting a ridiculous law that exists in Florida that states that you can provoke or assault anyone as much as you want and if they fight back you can kill them. Just make sure they are dead so they don't have a side of the story to tell.

You also have a professor at a community college who testified he taught Zimmerman about stand your ground and that Zimmerman asked repeated questions about the loopholes and details of it.

Melchior

This is a guy who has repeatedly used violence and threatening behaviour, both prior and after his murking of Treyvon Martin.

The guy is clearly irresponsible and shouldn't have guns, but the Trayvon Martin debacle is a lot more complicated than "he was an innocent kid that got shot by this guy".

Meh, not really. If this happened anywhere else in the world Zimmerman would be in jail, no questions. He got off because gun-nut fantasists like the idea that if some black punk challenged them to a fight they could shoot him dead.

Hodgy, what the hell are you walking about dude? You live in a small community so if you saw a stranger you'd immediately call the police and follow them? Unless you live in a trailer park in the middle of nowhere I find it hard to believe you've never seen a stranger before.

Fact is, I've been to small towns (more like villages really) and gated suburban communities, and nobody has ever followed me around on the grounds that "I didn't belong." Because I'm white, perhaps?

The fact that an operator told him to stand down is irrelevant. He was still told not to by someone in a position to advise him. It's almost like following and trying to detain someone is illegal.

There was no racial element? Bullsh*t. There's no way he would have followed a white kid he'd never seen before on the grounds that he "didn't belong." You're kidding yourself if you think some blonde white kid in a varsity jacket strolling past would have prompted him to go "hey, I've never seen that kid before, he must be the one committing the burglaries, I'll call the cops and start chasing him right now."

Frank Brown

This is a guy who has repeatedly used violence and threatening behaviour, both prior and after his murking of Treyvon Martin.

The guy is clearly irresponsible and shouldn't have guns, but the Trayvon Martin debacle is a lot more complicated than "he was an innocent kid that got shot by this guy".

Meh, not really. If this happened anywhere else in the world Zimmerman would be in jail, no questions. He got off because gun-nut fantasists like the idea that if some black punk challenged them to a fight they could shoot him dead.

How is that? Most people, including the media, were on the side of Trayvon Martin. I don't see how gun-nut fantasists play a role here.

Chunkyman

. Then, exploiting a ridiculous law that exists in Florida that states that you can provoke or assault anyone as much as you want and if they fight back you can kill them

"Stand Your Ground" laws have nothing to do with the case. "Stand Your Ground" laws mean that you have no duty to retreat from a life-endangering aggressor. Furthermore, the SYG laws only have applicability to when you actually have to capability to retreat. Let's use an example: Someone starts knifing me in the stomach while I'm standing around in an open-area park. In a state with SYG laws, it would be legal for me to immediately use lethal force in self defense. In a state without SYG laws, I would likely have a "duty to retreat", meaning I would have to run away, and would only be allowed to respond with lethal force if the assailant continued to follow and attack me. If you are in a situation where you can't retreat (backed into a corner, on the ground with someone on top of you while your head is being slammed into concrete, etc.), it falls under basic self-defense laws.

This is why SYG laws were never brought up by either legal team, because it has no applicability to this case.

If this happened anywhere else in the world Zimmerman would be in jail, no questions.

It's so terrible I know. If only we could be enlightened and progressive like all the cool countries are doing by outlawing self defense and concepts like innocent until proven guilty.

theadmiral

So the position is you can chase, provoke, try to illegally detain, then shoot anyone to death as long as there are no witnesses, and you can say they attacked you first, then be innocent until proven guilty since no one exists to testify against you. (You killed the only witness).

That actually is the case, but I wouldn't be defending it. Still, you have to find the man not guilty based on the facts presented even though we all know what really happened.

Deadly force is not self defense if you got punched in the face once and are mildly bleeding. Still, innocent until proven guilty.

Chunkyman

So the position is you can chase, provoke, try to illegally detain, then shoot anyone to death as long as there are no witnesses, and you can say they attacked you first, then be innocent until proven guilty since no one exists to testify against you. (You killed the only witness).

That actually is the case, but I wouldn't be defending it. Still, you have to find the man not guilty based on the facts presented even though we all know what really happened.

Deadly force is not self defense if you got punched in the face once and are mildly bleeding. Still, innocent until proven guilty.

Why was he chasing him when he was told not to? To tell him to move along? Why was he ranting about "These punks get away every single time"? If we are following the Zimmerman assertion that he did not chase him and he was "Ambushed" for no reason, then you are right.

Melchior

It's so terrible I know. If only we could be enlightened and progressive like all the cool countries are doing by outlawing self defense and concepts like innocent until proven guilty.

Right, well, in reality the American judicial system isn't so accommodating towards self defense when guns and racism aren't involved. If Zimmerman had also been black, and stabbed Trayvon with a broken bottle rather than shooting him, he would definitely be in jail right now. The overwhelming majority of second degree murder cases play out exactly like this, though probably without the defendant first chasing down his assailant, and they tend to end with conviction. But this was a special case. It played into millions of right-wing Americans long held fantasy of "hey if one of those little black gang members tried to f*ck with me, I'd just shoot him" and they rushed to defend him. Florida is a red state so I'm sure the jurors felt the same way.

Also, outlawing self-defense? More like not extending the right to kill to people whose lives aren't even in danger. He killed a man to avoid getting beaten up. Should that be legally permissible? Can I end any fist fight with murder in your view? What if I don't use a sacred firearm, what if I smash a bottle over their face and then stab them in the neck with it? Is that still just me defending myself?