Trouble logging in?We were forced to invalidate all account passwords. You will have to reset your password to login. If you have trouble resetting your password, please send us a message with as much helpful information as possible, such as your username and any email addresses you may have used to register. Whatever you do, please do not create a new account. That is not the right solution, and it is against our forum rules to own multiple accounts.

I can't find the picture of the mysterious guy. Suzaku will die but in the end I think Code Geass will have a happy ending. It better. I can't suffer the depression after watching Chrno Crusade and then Air and then another sad anime will kill me.

Since I didn't want to clutter the "Overall Impressions" thread. We moved this discussion between wingdarkness and me that started on page 5, here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

No, a leaders' responsibility is to lead...This isn't just some symbolic leadership where you fight for some guy that died a hundred years ago....This is current tactical and strategic prowess that was instilled and presented to his allies which convinced them to join his fight (along with his principles and charismatic campaign)...This isn't a sandlot showdown after class between the 5th graders and the 6th graders for control of the candy-drive...This is a war where the cost of defeat is enslavement and ultimately death to all who opposed Britannia...These people believed in and are counting on Zero's strategy to win them a fight that never seemed possible before his appearance....Once you commit to the fight you're committed...

That's like a General in Iraq who planned a signature battle to end a pivotal stage in the war and when it's time to fight he leaves his men, no rhyme, no reason, no exit strategy, no commands that he promised to give to them when the time was right...Do you think the reason this general left means anything to those in the field who are dying because that leadership has been betrayed?

Somebody who is gonna jump ship and leave me and my brothers to die, with no warning, with no thought of our partnership to fight this battle together at the deciding point of the battle...If that's the type of leader you are, I'll sincerely pass on your type of leadership...

Yeah, but a General in Iraq WON'T have some personal agenda as the sole reason for fighting. And that personal agenda is only held by that one General. A General in Iraq will have the backing of his people. His fellow countrymen. He will be supported by them. Because he rose to the position of General through hard work and determination.

Zero, he has an agenda that only a few people know about. He isn't supported by his own flesh and blood. He is supported by "foreign" people that he just picked up, and they just picked him as their leader.

As a traditional leader, Zero sucks. But he isn't a traditional leader because he was instantly brought up into a position of power, unlike other leaders who have worked for their position.

Quote:

That analogy is very flawed...Nunully is just some crippled girl in a wheel-chair she doesn't have the power to create policy nor will she be pictured on the Dollar bill...Again her whole presence is symbolic to this fight...Her connection is that of a personal one with Zero, a personal connection none of his solders know about...The mullet blasters under Georgey-boy understood John Hancock, Thomas Jefferson, etc., and their status in the building nation...For Washington to go and protect them would have a practical meaning to it, unlike Zero just disappearing with no message, response, or instructions to a fighting force depending on his intricate planning...He also has the power of Gaess which tips the scales even more than some mere mortal being the leader...

Okay, an analogy doesn't have to be perfect. And the analogy was only bad in one point. The fact that Zero has a personal agenda only known to him and that Washington didn't.
But, the whole point of that was to say that his actions to save his sister aren't selfish and actually practical. Because Nunully is his reason for fighting. Just as the Independence of the US was the reason for Washington to fight.

Quote:

Hmm...I not quite sure, I mean I've never had a Gaess in my eye-socket that can control people ...Maybe I would have sought out one of my commanders and Gaessed-Them and given them some instructions to follow or some strategy to exit, or SOMETHING besides leaving them ALL TO DIE! Remember the minute Nunully was proved kidnapped Zero made NO EFFORT to instruct his fighting force, NOTHING...You are willing to give him a pass on this I simply am not (Not when you are the leader who created this entire scenerio)...I'm looking at this from the perspective of those in the field..All those bloody and dying solders we saw going "WTFBBQ??-ZEROOOOOOOOOOO!!!"near the end of the last ep...To save Nunully and to lose the entire future he tried to create for her is again double the loss...I was just disappointed, as a leader, he did nothing but abandon his men...Surley he could have done more than what he did and still attempted to go after his sister in some form...Using the power of the Gaess if need be...

They why are you criticizing his actions? He should do something better. But what? You don't have the answer and yet you are asking that he think of something better than what he did. And besides it's going to be the same scenario even if he used his geass on someone to make him the leader. People are still going to say, "WTF, he abandoned us. But at least ????? is in charge." But who's going to follow Zero anymore? His future would have been lost then.

As a human being, which Zero still is, emotions cloud judgment. It's something that happens quite a lot of times. Therefore, if someone very precious to you was kidnapped. Wouldn't you instantly go find that person despite the circumstances?

To continue, are you that cold? You criticize him for his actions there, but are you that different that you would do something different? Imagine the emotions that are coursing through Zero's mind. Can you make a sound, logical decision with those emotions that overwhelm you?

(Note: I'm viewing you, as a watcher. Not from the perspective of those in the field. Just a watcher of the show that is criticizing.)

Yeah, but a General in Iraq WON'T have some personal agenda as the sole reason for fighting.

My point is from the soldiers' perspective...It doesn't matter whether it be a personal agenda or some such other...All the soldiers know is that they are fighting a battle heavily based upon the instructions of their leader and he's nowhere to be found...While waiting for that planned out battle instruction they are dying and being overwhelmed by the opposition...

Quote:

But, the whole point of that was to say that his actions to save his sister aren't selfish and actually practical. Because Nunully is his reason for fighting. Just as the Independence of the US was the reason for Washington to fight.

You can't sweepingly compare a human life to the liberation of an entire society...By your comparison if Zero were Washington during this time he would STILL leave his fighting force to save his sister and in this case the US would fail to get independence because he chose his sis over the goal of liberating the US... You see how re-shaping that analogy still doesn't work? Lulu isn't just some rouge solider or department head, he's the top of the pyrimid...Without his instructions and strategies to command his men they cannot win, and as exhibited by the episode it is a complete catastrophe for them not to get his instructions and//or strategic aid...

Quote:

They why are you criticizing his actions? He should do something better. But what? You don't have the answer and yet you are asking that he think of something better than what he did. And besides it's going to be the same scenario even if he used his geass on someone to make him the leader. People are still going to say, "WTF, he abandoned us. But at least ????? is in charge." But who's going to follow Zero anymore? His future would have been lost then.

4tran put it well in the other thread,

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4tran

There were a lot of things that Lelouch could have done to make the situation more favorable. To start with, he could have tried to delegate responsibility by raising a tactical commander and an operational commander so that the entire movement wouldn't fall apart in his absence.

These are my sentiments exactly, not that 4tran would say he agreed with me, lol...

He did NOTHING! How cold is he to sell out an entire society based on the principles inwhich his sis was the inspiration? Heck yeah better IS better, because "something better" is the difference between night and day if "better" means giving those guys a fighting chance as opposed to basically no chance...Lulu is too smart not to have any contingencies planned...He simply snapped once his sister was taken and he lost all association with the plan he created because of his sister...That's not good leadership at all...He took on the mantle of Zero, he should own up to it...

Quote:

As a human being, which Zero still is, emotions cloud judgment. It's something that happens quite a lot of times. Therefore, if someone very precious to you was kidnapped. Wouldn't you instantly go find that person despite the circumstances?

To continue, are you that cold? You criticize him for his actions there, but are you that different that you would do something different? Imagine the emotions that are coursing through Zero's mind. Can you make a sound, logical decision with those emotions that overwhelm you?

This is not a question of emotions (Although Zero has been shown many times to make logical or sound decisions under diress)...I do sympathize with his situation, but because he totally snapped and did nothing to help his followers he failed as a leader which was my original point...He turned his back on his supporters with no realization of how they would die fighting for his beliefs and the beliefs he inspired in them...Now the show isn't over and I suspect they'll pull something outta their backsides to not make it a total loss for team Zero, but as of now his lack of any action besides searching for his sis bothered me...Hell I would have Gaessed Suzaku and told him to help my soldiers if it came down to that...This is indeed a case where something would have ben better than nothing...

You can't sweepingly compare a human life to the liberation of an entire society...By your comparison if Zero were Washington during this time he would STILL leave his fighting force to save his sister and in this case the US would fail to get independence because he chose his sis over the goal of liberating the US... You see how re-shaping that analogy still doesn't work? Lulu isn't just some rouge solider or department head, he's the top of the pyrimid...Without his instructions and strategies to command his men they cannot win, and as exhibited by the episode it is a complete catastrophe for them not to get his instructions and//or strategic aid...

Well Zero isnt even Japanese so why would he give a hoot about the liberation of Japan when Nunally's possibly in danger, not to mention Nunally is his Raison d'etre. What was Zero's reason for fighting in the first place? To make the world a safe place for Nunally to live in. Liberating Japan was no doubt just a stepping stone. Wouldnt it be foolish if Zero manages to liberate Japan but something happens to Nunally?(worst outcome:death)

Quote:

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

4tran put it well in the other thread, These are my sentiments exactly, not that 4tran would say he agreed with me, lol...

He did NOTHING! How cold is he to sell out an entire society based on the principles inwhich his sis was the inspiration? Heck yeah better IS better, because "something better" is the difference between night and day if "better" means giving those guys a fighting chance as opposed to basically no chance...Lulu is too smart not to have any contingencies planned...He simply snapped once his sister was taken and he lost all association with the plan he created because of his sister...That's not good leadership at all...He took on the mantle of Zero, he should own up to it...

Nunally isn't just an inspiration, she is the most important reason why Zero's been fighting all this while. Besides there was no way Zero could have considered the possibility of Nunally being abducted to some remote island (teleport ftw?) especially since the OoBK had already secured Ashford Academy. Regarding why Zero did not raise a tactical commander in case he was MIA, it was because up till now Zero has been leading every OoBK battle and he did not consider the need to run off in the middle of a battle. I'd say that Nunally is Zero's weakness, just like Euphemia is to Cornelia.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

This is not a question of emotions (Although Zero has been shown many times to make logical or sound decisions under diress)...I do sympathize with his situation, but because he totally snapped and did nothing to help his followers he failed as a leader which was my original point...He turned his back on his supporters with no realization of how they would die fighting for his beliefs and the beliefs he inspired in them...Now the show isn't over and I suspect they'll pull something outta their backsides to not make it a total loss for team Zero, but as of now his lack of any action besides searching for his sis bothered me...Hell I would have Gaessed Suzaku and told him to help my soldiers if it came down to that...This is indeed a case where something would have ben better than nothing...

Nunally's basically the world to Zero, hence his anxiety upon news of Nunally's abduction. If the person most dear to you is missing and in possible danger, first thing you would want to do is to personally confirm his/her safety. Leading his tropps to victory was probably the last thing on Zero's mind at that point of time. Erm and regarding geassing Suzaku, he already got geassed so its a no go

Chudley - When you make a pact with people to fight toward a certain goal together you just can't turn your back on them when it becomes inconvenient and call yourself the leader of a rebellion...Simple as that...And to do this at the most critical "win-lose" juncture of the battle, it's just not defensible...

Quote:

Leading his troops to victory was probably the last thing on Zero's mind at that point of time

And that's what I'm objecting too...You can't lead and totally disregard your entire fighting force for anything...Again he did NOTHING...If your gonna search for Nunully, call a commander, bark out some last second orders, don't just let everyone DIE...Everyone who believed in you...everyone who believed in the world you wanted to create for Nunully..Just let them all die because your going thru an emotional crisis?? If you were on that battlefield fighting for Zero the explanation you just made would mean nothing to you...

Chudley - When you make a pact with people to fight toward a certain goal together you just can't turn your back on them when it becomes inconvenient and call yourself the leader of a rebellion...Simple as that...And to do this at the most critical "win-lose" juncture of the battle, it's just not defensible...

As stated from my earlier post, Lelouch became the leader of a rebellion in order to create a better world for Nunally. Do you honestly think his true purpose was to liberate Japan? Sure liberating Japan was what he promised the OoBK, however it was just a stepping stone to his goal. Furthurmore, Lelouch already made it clear to us in episode 25 that he is fighting for Nunally's sake and with Nunally gone, what's the reason for all his fighting up till now?

Quote:

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

And that's what I'm objecting too...You can't lead and totally disregard your entire fighting force for anything...Again he did NOTHING...If your gonna search for Nunully, call a commander, bark out some last second orders, don't just let everyone DIE...Everyone who believed in you...everyone who believed in the world you wanted to create for Nunully..Just let them all die because your going thru an emotional crisis?? If you were on that battlefield fighting for Zero the explanation you just made would mean nothing to you...

You said that a commander cannot lead and totally disregard his troops for anything, yet you failed to consider the fact that Nunally is Zero's Raison d'etre. This is code geass, where this man Zero is fighting a war against Britannia for his sister's sake, not for Japanese liberation. The fact is that in Zero's eyes, the OoBK and Japanese liberation amount to nothing compared to Nunally. Besides if you were an OoBK member, would you place all your hopes, beliefs and trust into a man whose face you have never seen before, a man whom you know aint Japanese and a man whose true agenda is unknown? I certainly wouldnt, but this is anime and thats what the OoBK did and as much as I hate to say it, they had it coming.

You can't sweepingly compare a human life to the liberation of an entire society...

Quite true. However, this is exactly what Lelouch does. For him, the liberation of Japan is little more than a means to an end, and that end is far more important than those means. Given his character, it was certain that he would choose his sister over the fate of the Black Knights.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

These are my sentiments exactly, not that 4tran would say he agreed with me, lol...

Why would you say that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chudley

Well Zero isnt even Japanese so why would he give a hoot about the liberation of Japan when Nunally's possibly in danger, not to mention Nunally is his Raison d'etre. What was Zero's reason for fighting in the first place? To make the world a safe place for Nunally to live in. Liberating Japan was no doubt just a stepping stone. Wouldnt it be foolish if Zero manages to liberate Japan but something happens to Nunally?(worst outcome:death)

You and wingdarkness are arguing about two different things: you're talking about how Lelouch thinks, while wingdarkness is talking about how Lelouch should behave if he were a proper leader. You're both correct since Lelouch is too selfish to be a proper leader.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chudley

Besides there was no way Zero could have considered the possibility of Nunally being abducted to some remote island (teleport ftw?) especially since the OoBK had already secured Ashford Academy. Regarding why Zero did not raise a tactical commander in case he was MIA, it was because up till now Zero has been leading every OoBK battle and he did not consider the need to run off in the middle of a battle.

That's a weak excuse. Since he leads from the front, it's quite possible for Lelouch to catch a bullet; in which case everything that he fought for would be for naught. More prosaically, he could have simply been rendered incommunicado; and as we say, without direct guidance from their leader, the Black Knights are sort of useless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chudley

I'd say that Nunally is Zero's weakness, just like Euphemia is to Cornelia.

I don't think that that comparison is correct. Without Nunally, Lelouch wouldn't even be fighting in the first place, and the entire situation would be sort of moot.

__________________

The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won...

That's a weak excuse. Since he leads from the front, it's quite possible for Lelouch to catch a bullet; in which case everything that he fought for would be for naught. More prosaically, he could have simply been rendered incommunicado; and as we say, without direct guidance from their leader, the Black Knights are sort of useless.

Yea he leads from the front, in his Gawain that is capable of flight and has overpowered cannons to boot. Any incoming missiles and aerial attacks are pretty much useless in front of the Hardron cannons. Before episode 25, the only other knightmare frame capable of aerial combat was Lancelot and Zero already had plans for it. With Lancelot out of the picture, i could very well say that the chances of Gawain getting shot down were close to nil. If you discount Nunally's abduction (which was completely unexpected), Zero would have stayed till the end and led the OoBK to victory (yea even after Orange enters the picture).

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I don't think that that comparison is correct. Without Nunally, Lelouch wouldn't even be fighting in the first place, and the entire situation would be sort of moot.

My point here is that for Euphemia, Cornelia would be willing to go to extremes. Just like how Lelouch had no qualms abandoning the OoBK for Nunally. Remember how Cornelia sacrificed all her air troops just to lure Zero in (so that she can personally exact revenge on him)? I'm sure that if Cornelia was in Lelouch's shoes and Euphemia was the one abducted, she'll do exactly what Lelouch did.

Yea he leads from the front, in his Gawain that is capable of flight and has overpowered cannons to boot. Any incoming missiles and aerial attacks are pretty much useless in front of the Hardron cannons. Before episode 25, the only other knightmare frame capable of aerial combat was Lancelot and Zero already had plans for it. With Lancelot out of the picture, i could very well say that the chances of Gawain getting shot down were close to nil. If you discount Nunally's abduction (which was completely unexpected), Zero would have stayed till the end and led the OoBK to victory (yea even after Orange enters the picture).

In-universe, the characters aren't supposed to know that they're protected by act of plot. In war, people don't die just because they make mistakes, but because they're just in the wrong place at the wrong time. In a realistic universe, being in a powerful machine like Gawain is little protection since such high-value targets tend to attract the most enemy fire as well. And of course, even something as simple as a broken communications antenna could render Lelouch incommunicado.

Moreover, the point of being a leader is to prepare for different possible outcomes, and that's something Lelouch certainly didn't do in not nurturing subordinates. Just because that hadn't bit him in the butt yet hardly excuses such a serious lapse. As a historical note, just about all renowned leaders also managed to surround themselves with excellent subordinates.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chudley

My point here is that for Euphemia, Cornelia would be willing to go to extremes. Just like how Lelouch had no qualms abandoning the OoBK for Nunally. Remember how Cornelia sacrificed all her air troops just to lure Zero in (so that she can personally exact revenge on him)? I'm sure that if Cornelia was in Lelouch's shoes and Euphemia was the one abducted, she'll do exactly what Lelouch did.

Why do you say that? Cornelia sacrificing a unit in order to take down the enemy's indispensable leader is a very sound military tactic - there's nothing at all extreme about it. And Cornelia has been in Lelouch's shoes; Euphemia was captured when those terrorists took the hotel hostage. However, the only extreme thing that she did there was to accept Zero's help.

Besides, my argument is that Nunally is far more than Lelouch's source of weakness; she's largely his source of inspiration as well. In classical terms, she'd be his muse.

__________________

The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won...

In-universe, the characters aren't supposed to know that they're protected by act of plot. In war, people don't die just because they make mistakes, but because they're just in the wrong place at the wrong time. In a realistic universe, being in a powerful machine like Gawain is little protection since such high-value targets tend to attract the most enemy fire as well. And of course, even something as simple as a broken communications antenna could render Lelouch incommunicado.

Moreover, the point of being a leader is to prepare for different possible outcomes, and that's something Lelouch certainly didn't do in not nurturing subordinates. Just because that hadn't bit him in the butt yet hardly excuses such a serious lapse. As a historical note, just about all renowned leaders also managed to surround themselves with excellent subordinates.

Why would you say that being in Gawain is little protection? It probably has the highest survival rate among all the OoBK knightmare frames. Not to mention it can friggin fly and has hadron cannons that can render aerial attacks useless, thats how Zero & Karen were able to escape from numerous Sutherlands at Kamenijina island. If Zero was in a Burai or Gekka, his chances of demise are way higher.

Regarding your 2nd point, the reason why the OoBK are in complete disarray is due to two unforseen circumstances. 1)Nunally's abduction puts Zero out of the picture. 2)Ougi(vice-commander), who could have taken over Zero, was shot at the command post, thus putting him out of the picture as well, hence why the OoBk are in deep sh*t. Who says Zero doesnt have excellent subordinates? Todo and Kallen are extremely capable fighters, Diethard handles tasks efficiently and provides valuable information to Zero, Ougi serves as his vice-commander. 1 major difference between renowned leaders and Zero is that the former truly fights for their country while the latter fights instead for a loved one, hence why renowned leaders nurture successors while Zero pretty much does things his own way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Why do you say that? Cornelia sacrificing a unit in order to take down the enemy's indispensable leader is a very sound military tactic - there's nothing at all extreme about it. And Cornelia has been in Lelouch's shoes; Euphemia was captured when those terrorists took the hotel hostage. However, the only extreme thing that she did there was to accept Zero's help.

Besides, my argument is that Nunally is far more than Lelouch's source of weakness; she's largely his source of inspiration as well. In classical terms, she'd be his muse.

Just a unit? The Gawain went like PEWPEW 360 and took out every single one of the air supplies. That ain't a sound military tactic at all, sacrificing so many people (yea you dont think the planes are unmanned right? Sunrise should have depicted people dying here) just so that Zero may fall for the bait (plan wasn't guaranteed to work). Furthuremore, when Zero arrived at the place, only Cornelia was waiting for him. Does that sound logical? If you were anticipating the enemy's leader, would you lie in wait with only one gloucester? Absolutely not, considering Cornelia doesn't even know the fighting capabilities of Gawain. In regards to the JLF incident, what happened to the principle of no negotiations with terrorists? Lol the moment Zero said he'll save Euphemia, Cornelia pretty much went with him. Both scenarios showcased Cornelia being clouded by her emotions and going to extremes. (If these aint extremes I dont know what is)

I do agree with you that Nunally is largely Zero's source of inspiration as well as his weakness.