The 60-Day DL Chopping Block

At the moment, the Yankees have eight players on the 60-day disabled list, which is the most I can ever remember them having at one time. Two of the 60-day DL guys are definitely done for the season (Joba Chamberlain, Colin Curtis), and one other almost certainly is (Damaso Marte). Given Brian Cashman‘s recent comments about Pedro Feliciano (“we don’t expect him back this year,” paraphrasing), the lefty makes it four players that are likely to stay on the 60-day DL all season. That leaves four players expected to come back during the season that will require a 40-man roster spot opening.

The first one is easy, since Reegie Corona (fractured arm) could just be removed from the 40-man roster when his time on the 60-day DL is up. He’s been on the 40-man bubble for over a year now. That leaves Phil Hughes, Rafael Soriano, and Eric Chavez, all of whom will probably be back right around the All-Star break, if not sooner. Something’s got to give and relatively soon, so let’s dig around the 40-man roster and rank some of the spare parts by how likely they are to be cut from the roster. Let’s go with a scale of one through five, with five being very likely to get the axe.

Buddy Carlyle, RHP
Friday’s game was basically a microcosm of the Carlyle experience. He was staked to a seven run lead to start the ninth, and he allowed the first three men he faced to reach base, two on walks. That’s just not going to cut it. Carlyle’s an older guy (33) with unspectacular stuff and extreme fly ball tendencies (35.1% grounders in his career), which doesn’t exactly scream “keeper.” No offense to Buddy, but guys like him literally grow on trees down in Florida, somewhere along I-4 between Tampa and Orlando. DFAbility: Five

Useful in moderation.

Chris Dickerson, OF
Dickerson is in the big leagues only because Chavez got hurt, and he’s been the quintessential defensive replacement/pinch-runner. Over the last 31 days, he has just four plate appearances (one double, three strikeouts) and zero starts, and he doesn’t figure to see much playing time anytime soon with Nick Swisher turning things around. We could lump Greg Golson in with Dickerson, since they essentially serve the same purpose and are both in their final option year. Dickerson is a lefty batter and has some more veteran presents, so maybe that gives him a little bit more of an advantage. Either way, he’s a guy that you can see serving a purpose down the stretch, especially when rosters expand in September. DFAbility: Two

Steve Garrison, LHP
A groin injury robbed Garrison of a month-and-a-half of the season, and he’s just now rejoining the Double-A Trenton rotation. He’s the only significant left-handed pitching prospect the Yankees have at the upper levels (aside from 20-year-old Manny Banuelos), so that alone is likely to save his job. Garrison also has a minor league option remaining for next year, and that works in his favor as well. I think he’s safe. DFAbility: One

Brian Gordon, RHP
Signed because the team needed a little pitching depth, Gordon has been nothing more than serviceable in his two starts and the Yankees even decided to use today’s off day to skip his turn in the rotation. I still think he’s a middle reliever at best, and frankly he falls into the Carlyle category of older fly ball guys with unspectacular stuff growing on trees in Florida. The only thing Gordon has on Carlyle is stamina; he’s stretched out and can throw 100 pitches if need be. That’s slightly more useful as the seventh guy/mop-up man in the bullpen. DFAbility: Three

Gus Molina, C
The Yankees only have three catchers on their 40-man, four if you want to count Jorge Posada as the emergency guy. Teams will usually keep that third catcher on the roster just in case, but the Yankees have Jesus Montero just a phone call away if they need a long-term fill-in. Gus is more of an up-and-down, short term guy. He’s not completely safe, but he’s also not the first guy on the chopping block. DFAbility: Three

"Now pitching for the Yankees, number forty-two, Lance Pandleton, number forty-two."

Lance Pendleton, RHP
As far as I’m concerned, Pants Lendleton and Gordon are interchangeable, at least in terms of expected results. Pendleton is a little younger and has more minor league options remaining, but they’re basically the same guy when you get down to the nuts and bolts of it. DFAbility: Three

Kanekoa Texeira, RHP
Mini-Tex is currently on the disabled list in the minors for an unknown reason, but that doesn’t really stand in the way of being removed from the 40-man roster. He was horrific in his short time with Triple-A Scranton (19 baserunners, 13 runs in 4.1 IP) but that could have been related to the injury for all we know. That said, the emergence of Hector Noesi and the somewhat surprising usefulness of Cory Wade make Texeira expendable. DFAbility: Four

* * *

It’s also worth noting that Justin Maxwell will miss the rest of the season after tearing his labrum robbing a homerun in Triple-A, so I suppose the Yankees could always activate him off the minor league disabled list, promote him to the big leagues, then immediately stick him on the 60-day DL to clear a spot. Maxwell, his agent, and the union will love that because he’ll get to collect a big league salary and service time when he otherwise wouldn’t. I just can’t ever remember a team, nevermind the Yankees, doing that. It’s worth a mention though. Jeff Marquez’s shoulder issue is another wildcard; if the injury is serious enough to require a 60-day DL trip, well there’s another spot. I suppose they could also release him, Amary Sanit-style. Until then, Carlyle and Texeira should be looking over their shoulders.

The one I feel sorry for is Maxwell. He was really mashing the ball this season and was starting to make more consistent contact when he got injured. Had 20 hrs I beleive. Hope he gets another shot next year.

http://bloggingfromthebleachers.com Aaron S.

While I agree with you, it’s worth noting that when healthy Maxwell is essentially just a third clone of the Dickerson/Golson type of player – some speed, defensive versatility to handle all three outfield positions, won’t get significant playing time.

It’s actually between the tweaker house, the trailer park, and a couple of Hooters.

MannyGeee

I was gonna go there, but I never know if I am beating a dead horse. then I remembered where I was… Beating of dead horses is encouraged in this establishment!

Ed

I would think Carlyle, Texeira, and Marquez are the first ones to go. I don’t think Marquez has any stronger grip on his roster spot than the other two. Carlyle is the only one healthy of the 3, and he can be optioned, so he’s probably the one most likely to stay.

I don’t see any reason to cut Pendleton unless they get desperate for spots. He may not have a high upside, but he’s at least pitched reasonably well – certainly better than the other bubble guys. He’s cheap and has 2 more options years after this, so I can see him bouncing between the majors and AAA for the next few years the way guys like Veras, Edwar Ramirez, and Abaledejo did a few years ago.

And Gus Molina isn’t anything to worry about. 3rd catchers are easy to find and they pretty much all suck equally. It’s quite likely they could release him and just resign him to a minor league deal. That happens frequently with 3rd catchers.

MannyGeee

And Gus Molina isn’t anything to worry about. 3rd catchers are easy to find and they pretty much all suck equally.

how dare you. dont you know who his brothers are? ROYALTEEEEEE

oh, wat? hes not one of ‘THOSE’ Molinas?

Ah well, fuck em, nice knowing ya Gus

IRememberCelerinoSanchez

“I would think Carlyle, Texeira, and Marquez are the first ones to go. I don’t think Marquez has any stronger grip on his roster spot than the other two.”

This.

I still don’t agree with the decision to claim Marquez in the first place. I know they were hoping he would be able to provide Noesi-like multiple innings of long relief, but unlike Noesi, Marquez can’t get anyone out. And he’s been mediocre at best the last four years in the minors. There is no basis to think he could have any success in the majors this year.

To me the first three to go are obvious: K-Tex, Marquez and Carlyle (and none will be missed).

Ed

I think they grabbed Marquez simply because he became available right at the same time they put Sannit and Joba on the DL. I think they also put some guys on the AAA DL then too. He was really just replacing one of the least important guys on the roster, so he didn’t have to be very good.

They’ve got a ton of guys on the DL, both at the ML and AAA levels. They need guys who can pitch in the majors, even if it’s just replacement level guys.

hardwired7

Nice post, Ed.

If they had one, I’d be clicking the ‘thumbs up’ button.

steve (different one)

Isn’t this exactly why you have someone like Gordon make what amounts (hoepfully) to 2 spot starts instead of adding a prospect to the 40 man?

This problem only gets worse is you promote Warren/Phelps then send them back down.

Pretty much. People get frustrated waiting for guys like Montero/Warren/Noesi/etc. to get their shot, but the goal is to let them develop in the minors until they’re as close as possible to finished products so that when you promote them and add them to the 25-man roster, it’s a permanent move and they never go back down again.

Obviously, that’s rare, but it’s still the goal. You’d rather have as few moving parts as possible. Wait until they’re both ready and needed, then promote them and make them big leaguers for life. If you only need a guy for a few weeks as a fill-in, use cannon fodder for that instead.

—————-

Sidenote on the Gordon v. Noesi/Warren/Phelps thing: I’m sick of the bashing the team has gotten over acquiring Brian Gordon. Cashman plucked a starter (in the midst of a lights-out AAA season) off of an opposing team’s organization for nothing but a prorated rookie scale contract. That fill-in starter then pitched 5+ innings of two-run baseball in a win over a fellow playoff contender.

For Cashman, the story has become “Why doesn’t he trust his minor leaguers?!?!” For the other 29 teams in baseball, the story would be “What a savvy move by a front office leaving no stone unturned” or “What a dream come true for a journeyman to contribute to a title run” or shit like that.

Only for the Yankees is the Brian Gordon story anything but a positive. If this happened to any other team in baseball, both Gordon’s subsequent poor second start/eventual demotion/DFA and the existence of any other prospects he displaced would be afterthoughts, and the only item to gain any journalistic traction would be the decisive and smart move by the club to pick up a useful piece for nothing and then use that piece successfully.

MannyGeee

For Cashman, the story has become “Why doesn’t he trust his minor leaguers?!?!” For the other 29 teams in baseball, the story would be “What a savvy move by a front office leaving no stone unturned” or “What a dream come true for a journeyman to contribute to a title run” or shit like that.

THIS!!!! If Theo had done this same move to fill in a couple spot stats for Bucholtz, the MSM would STILL be on their knees for him over it. Gammons woulda been juggling the balls and everything…

The BIG 3

Well, I don’t it’s “This!!!”

A team with a $200m payroll should not have to resort in using the Gordon’s of the world. It’s poor management. Even poorer after you consider they’ve been in this boat since Lee signed elsewhere.

I totally agree with your thoughts about the kids staying down until they’re ready. However, I don’t agree with Brian Gordan.

The Rays have a starter go down, they bring up Cobb.
The Sox have a starter go down, they start Wakefield or Aceves, or bring up Miller, or all three.

but the richest team in the sport has to import Brian fucking Gordan, who’s been released by pretty much every team in MLB? It’s not as if the entire starting rotation went down, you know. They lost Highes, they lost Colon. Losing two starters at a given point during the season should be expected, not unplanned for.

http://www.youcantpredictbaseball.com bexarama

Aceves got released by the Yankees. Auto-scrub!

(And I’m not sure why you are pining for a meh 40+-year-old, either.)

The BIG 3

I’m not pining for anyone. I’m simply making a statement about why proper pitching depth is important, and that Cash missed that boat this offseason.

Imagine how clusterfucky this season would be if Colon and Garcia didn’t work out? Holy shit.

Ted Nelson

That’s a huge contradiction…

A. Cashman failed to bring in pitching depth.
B. The pitching depth Cashman brought in has worked out great.

So you’re slamming Cashman for what would have happened if the pitching depth he acquired (Colon and Garcia) didn’t work out by saying that he didn’t acquire enough pitching depth to make needing the pitching depth that he acquired that did work out necessary. Did I get that right?

The BIG 3

No, I’m kinda smlamming him for not bringing in reliable pitching depth.

Wake is a known quality
As is Aceves
As is Cobb

At worst, they’re league average flotsam, whereas, at worst, Garcia, Colon and Prior never pitch.

Al Aceves is not “reliable” pitching depth. Al Aceves was available to the Red Sox for the same reason Bartolo Colon was available to the Yankees; they were both coming off of injuries.

They weren’t “reliable”, they were upside plays. Both of them.

This, again, is the disconnect. The Red Sox signing an risky upside play in Aceves is lauded as shrewd, savvy management; the Yankees signing a risky upside play in Colon is lambasted as a failure of foresight and planning.

http://www.youcantpredictbaseball.com bexarama

Also, yeah Tim Wakefield’s a known quantity… who put up an 81 ERA+ last year and negative bWAR. If that’s your fifth starter, you can probably win with that if you have a good offensive team… but that’s significantly below league average.

The BIG 3

Yeah, I guess Freddie doesn’t really belong in the board I put him. He is a known quality and he is actually better than league average, which begs a question: Was he hurt or something last year? Why weren’t other teams pining for his services?

MannyGeee

can you define known quality? is it a pitcher who is 40 and has not been good for 5 years? Or is it a guy who has had back problems for a couple of years running? OR is it a guy who has been in mid season form in Spring because he spent the winter in the DR league showing off his stem cell repaired shoulder? or is it a guy who put up 157 IP in 2010?

answer is NONE of them. Colon, Garcia, Aceves and Wakefield were all dice rolls. By and large, both teams got lucky with those guys so far this season

Colon, Garcia and Prior were signed with minor league contracts, ie, no other team really wanted them. For whatever reasons, much suckier teams chose to pass.

And yet, do you know what they are? They’re depth.

D-E-P-T-H.

Ted Nelson

The fact that other teams made bad decisions proves that they are smarter than the Yankees?

http://www.youcantpredictbaseball.com bexarama

Colon, Garcia and Prior were signed with minor league contracts, ie, no other team really wanted them. For whatever reasons, much suckier teams chose to pass.

The fact they worked out does not disprove my point, imo.

I still have no idea what your point is. I mean, you keep saying it’s that the team didn’t have pitching depth, when those guys are pitching depth. That every other team passed on them (or maybe they really wanted to be Yankees, like Garcia supposedly did IIRC) and the Yankees picked them up for depth should be a credit to them, not a detriment. Even if depth doesn’t work out, having it is generally pretty good.

The BIG 3

Come on. They are not acceptable depth for the NY Yankees. Two of the guys we’re talking of didn’t even pitch a ML inning last year.

Come on. They are not acceptable depth for the NY Yankees. Two of the guys we’re talking of didn’t even pitch a ML inning last year.

Neither did Alex Cobb, who you praised the Rays for bringing up.

Ted Nelson

How much better depth than Colon (post-stem cells… and remember Tony Pena was his manager in DWL so he saw Colon post-stem cells) and Garica could the Yankees have hoped for? How is that worse than having Aceves and Wakefield as depth when they are better than Aceves and Wakefield? How was Aceves any better known or less of an injury-risk than freaking Bartolo Colon and Freddy Garcia?

What’s the functional difference between Andrew Miller and Brian Gordon? There isn’t one. And yet you praise Theo for plucking Miller off the scrap heap and lambast Cashman for plucking Gordon off the scrap heap, all under the guise of the red herring that is “the $200M payroll”.

Again, proving my point. For other teams, it’s savvy. For the Yankees, it’s somehow a travesty.

The BIG 3

Bull, I’m not praising anyone. What I’m doing is not praising Cash (while you are).

BTW, Andrew Miller being 8th(?) on the Sox pre-season depth chart supports my point that it would have been nice if Cash did the same by signing Colon to be the Yankees 8th.

Go back and read what I wrote. I didn’t say anyone should praise Cashman for acquiring Gordon. I said people should stop shitting on Cashman for acquiring Gordon, because those complaints are fucking stupid and utterly disingenuous.

Ted Nelson

And also stop shitting on Cashman for his plan b behind Lee. Garcia and Colon have worked out about as well as any higher-priced guys I can think of, and at a fraction of the cost.

I can see saying the front-end of the Yankees’ rotation is weak… but depth? I think that’s holding up well.

MannyGeee

Google “Yankees Sign Kevin Millwood”… first article that comes up starts like this:

TAMPA — Are the Yankees hedging their bets before the cards are dealt? Or are they simply collecting insurance against a breakdown in the rotation?

The team on Friday signed veteran right-hander Kevin Millwood to a minor-league contract.

Now Google “Red Sox sign Kevin Millwood”… Yep, second article:

Seeking to add depth to their pitching staff, especially with John Lackey and Daisuke Matsuzaka on the disabled list, the Red Sox have signed Kevin Millwood to a minor-league contract, a major-league source has confirmed to the Herald’s Michael Silverman

So at $200M payroll its hedging your bets but at $165M its shoring up pitching depth? This(!!!) is TSJC’s point.

The BIG 3

You’re not being fair. My issue is that pitching depth was not addressed in a reasonable manner prior to the season beginning, which is entirely different than Epstein having to deal with Beckett, Dice, Buchholz and Lackey missing seasons, weeks and starts during the season.

Ted Nelson

You don’t really have any real point. Come on.

The Yankees have had to deal with Hughes and Colon missing starts during the season. They’ve had to deal with Brackman falling apart this season. Beckett and Buchholz have both given the Red Sox more innings than any Yankees starter other than CC.

Arguing that the Red Sox depth was better entering the season than the Yankees is utterly ridiculous. You’re insulting your own intelligence.

Ted Nelson

Forgot about Burnett over Becket in IP and Nova over Buchhdouche. Point still stands.

The BIG 3

Oh, so you are now forcing me to go to bat for the Sox? Way to go, slugger!

How is that any worse? How do the Yankees not have depth? Guys like Dice-K and Lackey having big names and large contracts doesn’t make up for how much they suck. Let alone guys like Doubront, Aceves, and Wakefield… who you have imagined as great depth when they’re all awful.

You are seriously listing Doubront’s MiLB IP as proof of his value as a pitcher, and I am out of my mind? Like 5 people here are arguing that you are out of your mind… but I guess you’re probably right.

Brandon Duckworth? Damn, what happened to this kid? I remember when he was coming up as a savior. Guess that never came to be.

I’m going to Epstein his deserved credit. He may have paid a shit-ton for it, but he takes this depth thingy damn seriously.

Ted Nelson

I totally disagree.

You keep saying that Aceves and Wakefield and Dice-K and Lackey are better depth than Colon and Garcia, even though they are worse pitchers… how does that work? How do you possibly rationalize that in your head? At least Lackey I can see believing will come-back (though apparently he’s admitted himself he’s got a degenerative arm issue that’s only going to get worse)… the others haven’t been good in a long while.

The Red Sox have a better top 3 than the Yankees maybe: Lester, Beckett, and Buchholz… younger and as good as or better than the Yankees top 3. Depth wise, though, I do not see your argument at all. Instead of just listing names you are impressed with, how about providing some stats to back them up. Stats that relate to performance and not work-load. Lots of AAAA starters have hundreds and hundreds of MiLB IP… that doesn’t make them any good.

The BIG 3

You keep saying that Aceves and Wakefield and Dice-K and Lackey are better depth than Colon and Garcia, even though they are worse pitchers

With Wakefield, I agree, but the others? come on. Lackey and Dice may not be any better than AJ, but surely you thought coming into this season that they had a better shot of being that good (or bad) than Colon. And Aceves is 28 coming off a back injury, whoop-de-whoop. And Hughes pitched 100 more IP than the year prior and Farnsworth is a must get in the trade market.

Ted Nelson

Different people expect different things coming into the season… Cashman (and his scouts and Tony Pena and whoever else) was right about Colon and Garcia. They have pitched well, yet you keep saying he didn’t do enough to get depth in the offseason. He got Colon and Garcia in the offseason. They have been great depth plays. Therefore, he got good depth in the offseason.

What I think as a fan is pretty irrelevant. I don’t scout other teams and leagues extensively. You are taking your opinion and the opinion of jounralists who are paid to write articles not to scout players… and saying that the preconceived notions of yourself and journalists and other fans are more important than either the thoughts of Cashman and his FO or what has actually happened to date in reality.

I didn’t expect Dice-K to pitch well this season, and I don’t think many people outside of New England did either.

I would never have signed Lackey to the deal the Red Sox did, no. Given that his arm is apparently only going to get worse with time, I sure wouldn’t trade for him either.

The BIG 3

Different people expect different things coming into the season… Cashman (and his scouts and Tony Pena and whoever else) was right about Colon and Garcia. They have pitched well, yet you keep saying he didn’t do enough to get depth in the offseason. He got Colon and Garcia in the offseason. They have been great depth plays. Therefore, he got good depth in the offseason.

That’s logical, except in this case of Gordon. After all, if proper depth was actually procured this past offseason, once Hughes went down, one of Colon and Garcia would have been promoted to the number 5 slot, and no one here would know jack shit about Brian fucking Gordon.

What I think as a fan is pretty irrelevant. I don’t scout other teams and leagues extensively. You are taking your opinion and the opinion of jounralists who are paid to write articles not to scout players… and saying that the preconceived notions of yourself and journalists and other fans are more important than either the thoughts of Cashman and his FO or what has actually happened to date in reality.
I didn’t expect Dice-K to pitch well this season, and I don’t think many people outside of New England did either.
I would never have signed Lackey to the deal the Red Sox did, no. Given that his arm is apparently only going to get worse with time, I sure wouldn’t trade for him either.

You are contridicting yourself when, on one hand you claim: “What I think as a fan is pretty irrelevant”, but on the other: “I didn’t expect Dice-K to pitch well this season”, and just like Beckett last year, “Lackey will suck too”.

This is what I think. When a GM like Cash or Epstein pays $15m/yr for AJ or Lackey, chances are best they both will be good starters for whatever reason. In the case of these two, year after year they churn out decently pitched games and have been proved effective pitching in the ALE (or at least once had). I have no problem with either of them. They are what they are, and either is better than an unreliable longshot.

Ted Nelson

“After all, if proper depth was actually procured this past offseason, once Hughes went down, one of Colon and Garcia would have been promoted to the number 5 slot, and no one here would know jack shit about Brian fucking Gordon.”

This is what happened. Colon replaced Hughes.

Gordon is a stop-gap for a 15-day DL trip. Colon tweaked his hamstring. He’s already throwing simulated games. If Colon gets hurt a week earlier or later maybe you don’t hear about Gordon or hear him starting somewhere else. He was just the guy who was available, and the Yankees felt he was a better guy to take starts than their other depth. Part of this is skill, experience, etc. and part of it is that he can now be ditched off the 40-man if he’s no longer wanted whereas Warren or Phelps cannot.

Gordon hasn’t done 1/2 bad against two of the top 4 offenses in baseball. He’s been as good as incredible depth pieces like Lackey or Sonnastine or Doubront or Wakefield would be expected to be in any two starts, let alone against the Reds and Rangers.

“You are contridicting yourself when, on one hand you claim:”

My intent was to say that what I think is irrelevant, but since you asked… here’s what I thought.

“I have no problem with either of them. They are what they are, and either is better than an unreliable longshot.”

You are completely ignoring that Lackey is literally on public record saying that his arm is shot and it’s only going to get worse the more he throws. I assume you aren’t aware of this since you are so blatantly ignoring it. His arm is no healthier right now than Colon or Garcia’s… it’s probably a lot less healthy if I had to give my irrelevant opinion.

The BIG 3

Gordon is a stop-gap for a 15-day DL trip

Yeah, Tommy told me that about about one million times already. But given this team’s depth, I’ll believe it when I see it. As far as I’m concerned, Brian fucking Gordon must pitch himself out of the rotation, which he’ll most definitely do anyway so this point is moot.

It’s as if people think that 200M means that the Yankees have 40 players on their roster all making 5M a piece, therefore every player on the roster should be a stud player.

It’s not an equal distribution; that money is concentrated where it will have the most impact (i.e., ARod, Tex, CC, Mo, etc.) We have a $200M roster to have a marked incremental advantage over other teams’ everyday players, frontline starters, and bullpen cogs. If you want the Yankees to also have an incremental advantage over other teams’ bench players, low-leverage middle relievers, and spare parts in AAA, the Yankees will need a $350M payroll, not a $200M payroll.

The BIG 3

If Cash didn’t have mL depth to rely on, which he apparently still doesn’t, how can he go into a season with the following depth chart:
CC
AJ
Hughes
Nova
Garcia
Colon
Igawa?

He has 7 quality starters, the chance to pick up another even better starter before the deadline, and Brian Gordon/Hector Noesi/Adam Warren/David Phelps/Dellin Betances/Carlos Silva options you’re choosing to overlook in favor of Kei Igawa in an attempt to build a strawman argument… So… all season would be my personal response.

The BIG 3

No, there’s no strawman there. I specifically added Igawa (somewhat sarcastically) because off the top of my head, he’s the only seasoned minor leaguer the Yankees have. In other words, I’m sick of promoting sub-200 IP minor league guys who aren’t ready, and subsequently fail. So they’re not depth.

A.) It’s “Gordon”, not “Gordan”.
B.) No, acquiring Gordon does not mean the initial depth chart was poor. It means when Gordon became available a few weeks ago, the team evaluated him and determined he’d be a good addition to the depth chart.

If I have a freezer full of hot dogs and I’m walking down the street, hungry, and someone says to me “Hey, would you like this hot dog I have? It’s free,” me taking and eating that hot dog I get for free on the street is not an indictment of the hot dogs in my freezer — good, bad, or otherwise. They’re unrelated, because they’re judged independently at different time-states and with different intentions.

Ted Nelson

Because you are lacking in knowledge of the Yankees prospects you will not call them depth? Your entire argument is flawed because it relies on your knowledge of MLB based on what you see and read. I know Aceves and Wakefield, so they are good. I read Andrew Miller is good, so he is good. Colon hasn’t been healthy is a while, so he is bad. I didn’t realize Garcia has been healthy and productive in

Noesi is already in MLB, he had 373 MiLB IP. Phelps has 467 MiLB innings. Warren has 286 MiLB innings, including 94 at AAA. Warren and Phelps were both NCAA veterans. Your own ignorance of the Yankees’ system is not an excuse for making bad comments.

The problem here appears to me to be your limited knowledge of MLB and the Yankees’ system. The Yankees need to leave their pitchers in the minors while also doing a better job of developing Tim Lincecums and Felix Hernandez’s who fly through the minors. Awesome. They need to have worse pitchers as depth because that’s the only way to have “real The BIG 3” depth. Awesome.

http://www.youcantpredictbaseball.com bexarama

Would you seriously rather have Igawa making ML starts than Warren or Noesi?

The BIG 3

Well, we’re going to have to agree to disagree than because, I happen to think that because Gordon was signed and then immediately brought in to pitch before:Millwood
Noesi
Phelps
Warren
Silva
he was, in fact, signed to be the 5th starter.

jsbrendog

If I have a freezer full of hot dogs and I’m walking down the street, hungry, and someone says to me “Hey, would you like this hot dog I have? It’s free,” me taking and eating that hot dog I get for free on the street is not an indictment of the hot dogs in my freezer — good, bad, or otherwise. They’re unrelated, because they’re judged independently at different time-states and with different intentions.

Well, we’re going to have to agree to disagree than because, I happen to think that because Gordon was signed and then immediately brought in to pitch before Millwood, Noesi, Phelps, Warren, and Silva he was, in fact, signed to be the 5th starter.

And what we’re trying to tell you is, he was signed to be the 5th starter for a week or two and because he was available for nothing but cash, stretched out and ready, pitching very well the time, and because he could be dumped at a moment’s notice when contingencies changed.

You’re trying to read way more into that than is necessary. You’re using that fairly innocuous happenstance of “Hey, could this guy help us out for two weeks? Yeah? Then we should sign him” to make grandiose statements about how bad of a GM Cashman is for getting into this “predicament” in the first place, despite the fact that the predicament is fairly commonplace and banal and most teams deal with it frequently and react in similar fashions, and they don’t get raked over the coals or picked apart for it.

Which is my original point, that for most teams, signing a 32-year old fringy journeyman off of someone else’s organization to make a two or three spot starts in relief of a guy on the 15-day DL and then disappear back into AAA is no big deal (or is even looked at favorably if that journeyman pitches well, as Gordon did) and only here is it an indictment of organizational failure or shortsightedness.

Aw, WTF. I exited the conversation because I’ve never been able to express myself very well in print, but I think my point is valid so I’ll give this one more shot.

Because you are lacking in knowledge of the Yankees prospects you will not call them depth?

No, because there isn’t a Yankee prospect that has been groomed properly for the bigs. Even Noesi has been placed in this Aceves-hybrid long reliever, spot starter role. Yes, he could be forced to start, just as Aceves has, but it’s not proper planning if he’s your 7th starter on the preseason depth chart (I refuse to acknowledge Millwood), and two of the guys above him are DL stalwarts, and nothing Nova had done suggested he could be relied upon.

Your entire argument is flawed because it relies on your knowledge of MLB based on what you see and read. I know Aceves and Wakefield, so they are good.

The crust of my argument is, regardless of how this season’s turned out, CC, AJ, Hughes, 3 perennially injured guys and a bunch of minor leaguers with very little experience backing them up, is not ‘depth’, it is sitting on a train track hoping the 3:50 breaks down.

You can if you want, but making the same argument about the Rays or Sox staffs is fanboy stuff, imo. Reliable equals CC, AJ and Hughes. If they break down, so be it, many pitchers do. Reliable is not, however, Colon, Garcia and Prior simply because they’ve proven they have a very hard time staying healthy.

Noesi is already in MLB, he had 373 MiLB IP. Phelps has 467 MiLB innings. Warren has 286 MiLB innings, including 94 at AAA. Warren and Phelps were both NCAA veterans. Your own ignorance of the Yankees’ system is not an excuse for making bad comments.

Point earned. I didn’t know that Phelps had so many innings in.

But Noesi I’ve already addressed, and Warren pitched A+ last year. Prior to this season, Warren had all of 2 seasons under his belt. No thanks.

The problem here appears to me to be your limited knowledge of MLB and the Yankees’ system. The Yankees need to leave their pitchers in the minors while also doing a better job of developing Tim Lincecums and Felix Hernandez’s who fly through the minors. Awesome. They need to have worse pitchers as depth because that’s the only way to have “real The BIG 3? depth. Awesome.

It’s entirely possible that because of the expectations in NY, these kids need more seasoning to gain the full confidence in their game they’ll need. I’m not a pro, a psychologist, nor have I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express lately, but over a decade of evidence indicates this might be true. I do know this, this rush shit that has occurred on Cash’s watch (not entirely blaming, just sayin’) has not worked, so relying on Noesi, Warren and B&B&B, to pull off some ML innings because Colon, Garcia and Prior all wound up lame, is not acceptable depth, imo, nor should they have ever been considered as such (nor were they, imo).

You want to add Colon, Garcia and Prior as depth? No sweat, great… perfect. This is what great org’s do, they find and develop long shots because they can afford to and they don’t need all their mL rosters to be made up of young upside. But they also don’t enter a season praying 2 of those long shots work out, and if they don’t, OMG! call up Betances, pronto!

Ted Nelson

“No, because there isn’t a Yankee prospect that has been groomed properly for the bigs.”

Based on what? You seem really into MiLB IP, but do you have any evidence there’s any correlation between MiLB IP and MLB success? I have no statistical evidence either way, but most stud pitchers rise quickly through the minors (especially if they’ve got 3 or 4 NCAA seasons under their belt)… so I’m not sure there’s any evidence to say that guys who pitch hundreds and hundreds more MiLB innings are better. In a lot of cases they are worse.

“Even Noesi has been placed in this Aceves-hybrid long reliever, spot starter role. Yes, he could be forced to start, just as Aceves has, but it’s not proper planning if he’s your 7th starter on the preseason depth chart”

Why is it proper planning for the Red Sox and not the Yankees?
Where’s your evidence that starting in AAA is better preparation to start in MLB than pitching relief in MLB?
Noesi isn’t starting anyway. Some people (Keith Law) think he should be, but he’s not.

“You can if you want, but making the same argument about the Rays or Sox staffs is fanboy stuff, imo. Reliable equals CC, AJ and Hughes. If they break down, so be it, many pitchers do.”

Again… what is the difference between Garcia and Colon’s injury record and Aceves’? How is Doubront reliable at anything but being bad? Where was Andrew Miller’s track record of success? Where is Andy Sonnanstine’s record of success? Where was Cobb’s MLB success before 2011 (he didn’t play in MLB before 2011)? Why are you comparing the pro innings of a 23 year old who came out of HS to a 23 year old who came out of NCAA?

It’s fanboy stuff to suggest that the Red Sox or Rays’ depth is way greater than the Yankees. They have stronger middles of their rotations, not more in depth. You could argue for their depth maybe, but could also argue for the Yankees. The Yankees are not clearly behind them.

“Warren pitched A+ last year. Prior to this season, Warren had all of 2 seasons under his belt.”

Because he went to college. Cobb did not. They are only a few months apart in age… It’s generally considered a good thing to reach AAA and do well after only one full season in pro ball… yet you’re spinning it as a bad thing.

Well… that’s what the Yankees did adn that’s why they are a great organization. They were not praying 2 of the 3 worked out. You may recall Garcia pitched well in 2010, but apparently you didn’t bother to pay attention to that. He wasn’t a long-shot at all. Since returning from shoulder injury for good… he’s been solid. Colon seemed like a long-shot, but you’re just ignoring that Tony Pena was his manager in DR and literally saw what he could do. The Yankees had A LOT more info on him than you or I. Prior? That was literally a shot in the dark… 100% a depth move. He was never, ever, ever brought in a starter. It’s crap like that which makes your arguments completely unreliable.
If Colon hadn’t worked out they wouldn’t have shit the bed. Mitre would have opened in the long-man role just like last season. They would most likely be worse off, but who knows how much worse?

Spare me the NYC pressure BS. No evidence at all. A few guys not working out amazingly by 25 is evidence of nothing.

Ted Nelson

Your argument also relies on Brian Gordon being incredibly awful… but he’s gone up against 2 of the top 5 offenses in baseball and the Yankees are 1-1 in his starts. That is not awful the way you’re making it out to be.

The BIG 3

Based on what? You seem really into MiLB IP, but do you have any evidence there’s any correlation between MiLB IP and MLB success? I have no statistical evidence either way, but most stud pitchers rise quickly through the minors (especially if they’ve got 3 or 4 NCAA seasons under their belt)… so I’m not sure there’s any evidence to say that guys who pitch hundreds and hundreds more MiLB innings are better. In a lot of cases they are worse.

Based on the sterling records of Hughes, Kennedy and even Joba turning into poo after they were rushed in, then rushed out, a few times on stretchers.

For as long as Brian Cashman has been GM, name one single pitcher, not just starter, who has made a name for himself in this town. If you name D-Rob, I swear, I will hunt you down and kill you in less time he’s been doing it. :)

Again… what is the difference between Garcia and Colon’s injury record and Aceves’?

You’re talking crazy again, but whatever. Colon and Garcia are both old and have spent more time hurt the past five years then pitching.

Spare me the NYC pressure BS. No evidence at all

How many years must pass before you start thinking there may be?

Ted Nelson

“Based on the sterling records of Hughes, Kennedy and even Joba turning into poo after they were rushed in, then rushed out, a few times on stretchers.”

But I can give you hundreds of examples of guys just as “rushed” who did great.

Look at Lincecum next to Joba or Felix next to Hughes.

“You’re talking crazy again, but whatever. Colon and Garcia are both old and have spent more time hurt the past five years then pitching.”

Garcia is right in line in age with the great AJ, Lackey, and Dice-K depth pitchers. He was hurt once. Once. He had shoulder surgery. It was a long round back. Since finally coming back for good with Chicago he’s done nothing but pitch. 213 innings in about 1.25 seasons.

Colon had stem cell surgery this offseason and Tony Pena was his manager in Dominican Winter League. Pena saw what he could do and told the Yankees. They didn’t take some blind shot in the dark on Colon.

The same FO that evaluated Colon and gave him the OK evaluated Ace and said no… how is he LESS of an injury concern based on what we fans know?

“How many years must pass before you start thinking there may be?”

Years of what? What evidence do you have? Like 2 or 3 examples of Javy and Carl Pavano? Every team signs FAs and makes trades that don’t work out… is the pressure always the cause? Is St. Louis so pressure packed that Ankiel lost his shit? KC so pressure packed Greinke had a break-down?
NYC pressure is a narrative.

The BIG 3

But I can give you hundreds of examples of guys just as “rushed” who did great.

On this team? really? Ok…go!

MannyGeee

does it hurt your arguement that 4 of those guys have had better seasons than John Lackey and his $82M contract?

might…

The BIG 3

No, but it hurts Epstein’s case that he knows more than shit about veteran pitchers.

Ted Nelson

Wait, wait, wait… I thought Epstein had done a great job of assembling depth with Aceves (5.14 ERA in 4 starts) and Wakefield (4.5 ERA in 9 starts), while Cashman had done an awful job with Colon (2.96 ERA in 10 starts) and Garcia (3.23 ERA in 13 starts). What happened to that argument?

The BIG 3

You know, Ted, I don’t think you appreciate it when the entire crowd jumps down your throat on an opinion you might have.

I contend that Cash didn’t address pitching depth in a reasonable manner this off-season. I don’t think that’s unreasonable criticism.

jsbrendog

but it is. it isn’t based in any reality and totally proes exactly what tsjc wrote that you replied to.

Ted Nelson

I don’t remember everyone jumping down my throat very often… usually one or two people at a time, because we disagree. I don’t mind it when people disagree with me.

People disagree both with your point and the evidence you’re using. People think your point is wrong: Cashman assembled good depth which has held them together as Hughes and Colon have missed time. People also think that your evidence that he did a bad job being the Red Sox is ridiculous. They have a lot of well known pitchers… but most of them stink.

http://www.youcantpredictbaseball.com bexarama

They have a lot of well known pitchers… but most of them stink.

I wouldn’t say “most” but pretty much. Praising the Red Sox for having Lackey at this point is kinda like asking what the problem with Derek Jeter leading off is because he’s Derek Jeter.

Ted Nelson

“I wouldn’t say “most” but pretty much.”

It sounds harsh, but I really think that’s the case.

Don’t stink:
-Lester
-Beckett
-Buchholz

Might not stink, but might stink:
-Miller
-Aceves

Do stink relative to role:
-Dice-K
-Lackey
-Wakefield
-Doubront

Yankees have a lot of starters who sort of stink too… just saying that the Red Sox immediately MLB ready starters mostly stink depending on what happens to Miller and Aceves going forward. Maybe some of their upper level guys exceed expectations, but can say the same for Warren, Phelps, etc.

http://www.youcantpredictbaseball.com bexarama

Oh, I didn’t realize you were talking all their depth, my bad. I thought you meant just the guys in their rotation right now. Also, I’d put Doubront in the “might stink, might not stink” category, but definitely move Bowden to the “stink” category. Bowden at this point is like a 10th starter, and if the Red Sox are using him to start, well, I’ll find it hard to criticize them because it must’ve meant something catastrophic happened to their rotation.

http://www.youcantpredictbaseball.com bexarama

not the pitchers in their rotation *right now*, the ones to begin the year (so that would include Dice-K and Buchholz and not Wakefield/Miller/Aceves/whoever else they’re using), my bad

The BIG 3

Well, Ted, you should go look at your prior depth chart then, to see how valid it is today.

Don’t stink:
-CC

Might not stink, but might stink:
-Garcia
-Gordon

Do stink relative to role:
-Hughes
-AJ
-Nova

Injured, as expected:
-Colon
-Prior

Will never, ever be called on to start in 2011:
Brackman
Warren
Betances
Banuelos

It’s a huge oversimplification and I said that the Yankees have a lot of guys who sort of stink. There are much better ways to analyze the rotations of these teams then that crappy list… I was just saying that it’s not like the Red Sox are super-rotation-number-1.

Right now Lackey has got a 7.4 ERA… the way he stinks and the way Burnett stinks are not comparable.

Dice-K has had an ERA of around 5 for 3 straight seasons. Again… he really, really stinks. Probably a blessing for the Sox he’s hurt.

Saying Colon was bound to pull a hammy is silly. He’s been hurt with the shoulder. His shoulder is fine this season to date as far as we know.

Hughes does not stink, there was something wrong with him. Not pitching doesn’t equal stinks.

AJ sort of stinks, but not like Dice-K and Lackey who are both in his salary bracket.

The BIG 3

it’s not like the Red Sox are super-rotation-number-1.
I never said that. As a matter of fact, if Beckett, Lester and Buchholz don’t continue to pitch real well, that team is pretty fucked, assuming the complete losses of Dice and Lackey.

Right now Lackey has got a 7.4 ERA… the way he stinks and the way Burnett stinks are not comparable.

Right now, I’d say that Lackey sucks for reasons far more ominous like his ERA. We can start with his elbow.

Dice-K has had an ERA of around 5 for 3 straight seasons. Again… he really, really stinks. Probably a blessing for the Sox he’s hurt

Dice may suck but he’s not worse than Epstein’s 6th and 7th options. Hurt he is, for sure, and disabled, he certainly is, but when healthy he cranked out a few good seasons. It’s not fair for us to call him a terrible number 5 starter.

Hughes does not stink, there was something wrong with him. Not pitching doesn’t equal stinks.
You should go look at the ERA+ of both Dice and Hughes when they were healthy. You’re inner fanboy is coming out when you call Hughes a good #3 starter and Dice a sucky #5.

Big Papi

Hi, this is a reply to the post above but it wont let me click the button

“I didn’t expect Dice-K to pitch well this season, and I don’t think many people outside of New England did either.”

trust me, not many people IN new england expected him to pitch well

jsbrendog

agreed. man i hate yankee fans.

Ted Nelson

Great points.

Gordon wasn’t even all that awful in hi 2nd start, when you consider he was going up against one of the best offenses in MLB. He got pretty well rocked, but that kind of start (5 IP, 4 ER) can happen to just about any starter. It wasn’t that awful… I think people remember it as more awful since Noesi got totally shelled, the Yankees scored only 2, and the final score was 10-2.
If the bullpen holds up, the offense scores its usual 5… Yankees win 5-4 or lose 5-6 or something and I’ll bet Gordon is also viewed a lot more favorably.

I’m not saying Gordon is any good, just that against the league average instead of two top 5 offenses he might be passable for a few starts.

The BIG 3

Brian Gordan was released by an inferior NL team because he apparently wasn’t considered one of their 7 best starters. Even if he pulls a Colon or Garcia, that fact remains.

Brian Gordan was released by an inferior NL team because he apparently wasn’t considered one of their 7 best starters.

False. Brian Gordon was allowed to exercise an opt-out he placed his contract in the event that a team offered him a spot on their active roster.

Brian Gordon was not “released” by an “inferior” NL team. The Phillies did not release Brian Gordon. Brian Gordon opted out of his Phillies contract. Do not distort the historical record to bolster your weak argument.

The BIG 3

Semantics.

Philly “released” him, which is the same thing as saying Philly couldn’t find anyone on their active roster who was less valuable than, now, the NY Yankees 5th starter.

JC Romero? Seriously? Baez? Did Gordon also have a clause where he could opt out if Philly chose to have him relieve, which he had done extensively?

Ted Nelson

Your logic elludes me.

Even if the Phillies (who happen to be the best team in baseball right now with a sick rotation… but I guess they’re “inferior”) were wrong about Brian Gordon, the fact remains that they were wrong? No one is calling Gordon amazing anyway, just passable. A stop-gap.

Even if the media was wrong about Colon… it doesn’t matter because the media said it? So what. What does it matter what they said?

Even if the media are wrong about Wakefield and Aceves and they’re both awful, it doesn’t matter because the media likes them?

Even if Lackey is beyond terrible, it doesn’t matter how much money the Red Sox pay him?

The fact that the media hypes certain players and bad-mouths others has nothing to do with reality. They are just commentators offering their opinion. Their opinions mean nothing more than yours or mine.

http://www.youcantpredictbaseball.com bexarama

Brian Gordan was released by an inferior NL team because he apparently wasn’t considered one of their 7 best starters.

a. he opted out because the team wasn’t gonna use him, he wasn’t released;
b. that NL team was the Phillies, who might be the best team in baseball;
c. he’s still probably better than Kyle Kendrick, who is just terrible. The Phillies letting him walk away without trying him out was probably not the wisest move.

he opted out because the team wasn’t gonna use him, he wasn’t released;

Again, this is not exactly true. He opted out because the Yankees offered him a major league job. He did not opt out because the Phillies weren’t going to use him or didn’t want him, he opted out simply because the Phillies alerted teams that one of their players had an opt-out and could be obtained and one of those other teams obtained him.

We have no evidence that says that the Phillies weren’t going to use him. The fact that they didn’t use him during the first three months of the year doesn’t mean they wouldn’t have used him at some point in the last three months. The fact that they let him exercise his opt-out without promoting him to the majors instead does not mean they didn’t like him as a pitcher and weren’t sad to lose him from their depth chart.

I know you’re agreeing with my larger point here, but I want all of us to be perfectly clear regarding the nature of how Brian Gordon ended up as a Yankee: He ended up a Yankee because he had an opt out and exercised it. It’s not a referendum on him somehow not being good enough to hack it in Philly or on Philly not intending to use him. He just had an opportunity elsewhere and took it, that’s all.

jsbrendog

the facts:

brian gordon was having an extremely good season in aaa.

brian gordon has an opt out if someone offers him a ml deal.

the phillies, figuring that oswalt and halladay and lee (2 of whom have history of back injuries) would never get hurt and who needs em (or not, if im ruben amarro jr i dont even know what im thinking), emailed all the other teams saying hey this guy is available if you want to offer him a ml contract.

the yankees went, ok you can start thursday.

brian gordon opted out

now, opinions:

this was a wonderful thing for the phiilies to do as an organization. they took care of a player they werent sure would get a shot with them even though it might hurt them in the long run, esp now with oswalt’s injury

any team that picked him up and gave him a start would be making a great shrewd move regardless of payroll because of how great a season he was having in aaa.

brian gordon kinda sucks at baseball and may be the stereotypical aaa player. but so was aaron small….

the phillies, figuring that oswalt and halladay and lee (2 of whom have history of back injuries) would never get hurt and who needs em (or not, if im ruben amarro jr i dont even know what im thinking), emailed all the other teams saying hey this guy is available if you want to offer him a ml contract.

Even that part probably isn’t true. I haven’t read Gordon’s contract, nor do I know Ruben Amaro personally, but I’ll bet dollars to donuts the Phillies informed the other teams to let them know about Gordon’s opt-out for one of two reasons:

A.) The Phillies were contractually obliged to inform the other teams about the opt-out and were thus informing teams of Gordon’s availability to avoid having a grievance filed against them
B.) It’s common courtesy to inform other teams when a player of yours under contract has an opt-out and is soon to be available for a claim, and Amaro failing to alert the other teams in baseball would set a bad precedent and possibly hamper his ability to make deals with other clubs and would damage Amaro’s reputation with players and agents for concealing from Gordon his opportunities with other clubs.

Oswalt/Lee/the health of Philly’s starters/Amaro’s desire to retain Gordon probably never factored into it. Gordon had an impending opt-out, and refusing to let other teams know about the impending opt-out and Gordon’s availability would be either a dick move on Amaro’s part or an illegal move on Amaro’s part.

This isn’t the Cold War here, it’s baseball. Ruben Amaro isn’t going to bug Gordon’s phone and intercept his mail to keep him from defecting.

jsbrendog

it wasn’;t impending. there was no date. it was the same then as it was in the beginning of the year. you are ours in aaa unless a team offers you an ml conmtract. that isn’t impending. it is all encompassing.

Brian Cashman spoke about the machinations involved in bringing the 32-year-old converted outfielder and 15-year minor-leaguer here to start today. The Phillies sent out a major-league-wide memo last week about Gordon’s availability because he had an opt-out at Triple-A coming on Wednesday and they had no room for him on the major-league staff.

Brian Gordon has floated from position to position, from team to team for his entire career. Sure, he might be an excellent starter. I just won’t bet on it, is all.

http://www.youcantpredictbaseball.com bexarama

Oh my God the bottom part of this is so true I cannot even express how true it is. I mean, the Braves were getting lauded for bringing up their prospects this year for spot starts… when their prospects were not good at all in the big leagues.

JobaWockeeZ

Another team got praise, who cares?

http://www.youcantpredictbaseball.com bexarama

Because like tsjc said, when another team does something it’s savvy, when the Yankees do anything it’s a desperate travesty. Even when that other team does something that actually isn’t too savvy.

jsbrendog

how does one get veteran presents….and are they like a gift bag? is there an ipad involved?