I'm anti gun ownership but I would still use a gun in a movie
If people are too stupid to separate fiction from reality they they don't deserve a pocket knife.
(Peej, Wed 9 Jan 2013, 15:51,
Reply)

Agreed. There are people that believe that only the "elites" deserve to be protected by guns, like celebrities and politicians.
The reality, is that every life is sacred, not just the famous, rich or criminal.
(BrokenCoccyxdoesn't mind if you grope on, Wed 9 Jan 2013, 15:58,
Reply)

mine isn't,
it's not going to change the world my not being here.I can't think of anyone who's life is sacred off the top of my head.Can you give me an example?not meaning to argue, just curious
(HappyToastGroat froth, Wed 9 Jan 2013, 16:02,
Reply)

Oh, don't be such a fucking spastic.
You really are acting like a pathetic, spoilt brat. You're happy 30,000+ people each year are killed by guns in your country, as long as you get your toys to play with?You stupid fucking selfish cunt.
(Tab HunterMake this useless process end and so, begin again, Wed 9 Jan 2013, 16:04,
Reply)

You make a lot of assumptions in your rage. This started because white, middle class people were killed. Why are you not angry when thousands of black men, women and children are killed?
Why were you not outraged when the current US administration allowed assault rifles into Mexico, resulting in the deaths of thousands of brown skinned people and at least one federal agent?

Why are you not outraged that over 500 homicides happened in Chicago last year, to a majority of black victims, but also a place with the strictest of gun control?

You can fester and spew all you want. And you really cross a line when you accuse me of liking death. You would not survive a moment where I grew up. Yes, my life has been saved more than once by a gun. But the gangs and cartels will not disarm, no matter how many times you weep or wring your hands.

impressive introduction of the race card to try and deflect the argument
I think you'll find the general desire to remove guns is not referring to taking away rich Caucasian folks guns, but all guns, irrespective of colour of owner
(HappyToastGroat froth, Wed 9 Jan 2013, 16:16,
Reply)

My point is that where the most murders with guns happen are places where guns are illegal.
Maybe we should give the mother of a kid trying to avoid gangs the opportunity to prevent a home invasion that leaves her son dead and her raped.

You may not care about race, but I certainly do. Black men are disproportionately victims of homicide. The media seems to ignore such murders unless a white person is involved.
(BrokenCoccyxdoesn't mind if you grope on, Wed 9 Jan 2013, 16:21,
Reply)

more race based distraction tactics, you clearly don't have a leg to stand on
what if it was a white kid avoiding a white gang home invasionHow big a gun should that child be entitled to to defend himself against lets say 5 imaginary intruders?What if the kids attacking only have knives? should the kid put the gun away first or should he give them guns too to make things even?What if the kids attacking don't enter the property but shoot at it with a rocket launcher, should the poor kid (black or white) get government funding for anti rocket defences and maybe some rpgs of his own?

Race is not a distraction. Look at the statistics: non-whites suffer most. May not mean anything to you.
Why should anyone, black or white, have to suffer the trauma of a home invasion? If someone is using a knife, that is lethal force. I would shoot him because if you're trying to kill, you don't get to determine the response. (It's like the old movies where the tough guy got beat up by a karate dude and said that kicking was "girlie". The best practice is not to mess with another human to make yourself look tough or you could end up dead).

Again, if you can remove all guns from the world, guarantee that the cartels and gangs are disarmed and that the currently porous borders of the US will not allow any further gun transfers from profiteers in other countries, then we have a starting point.
(BrokenCoccyxdoesn't mind if you grope on, Wed 9 Jan 2013, 16:33,
Reply)

but almost all (if not all) of these guns are made in the United States.
the US has something like half of all the world's guns.
(Moon Girl Technologieshorrendous beanbag, Wed 9 Jan 2013, 16:37,
Reply)

But the guns that do the most damage among the cartels are not manufactured in either Canada or Mexico
Usually China, Bulgaria, or some other AK 47 hotspot.
(BrokenCoccyxdoesn't mind if you grope on, Wed 9 Jan 2013, 16:49,
Reply)

I'm trying to find out. I got this so far:
Is gun theft a part of the illegal gun problem? Yes, gun theft is one of the ways guns are diverted to the illegal market. The ATF reports that over 13,000 guns are lost or stolen from dealers nationwide each year. Estimates show that as many as 32% of crime guns are acquired through theft.5 6www.mayorsagainstillegalguns.org/html/about/faq.shtml
(Moon Girl Technologieshorrendous beanbag, Wed 9 Jan 2013, 16:57,
Reply)

Honestly I doubt my sanity posting that
...but the crime problems being highlighted (victim OR perpetrator) are because of deprivation and lack of opportunity ... not of race.

It just so happens that due to social ills and long-standing inequalities in the US (and UK) that non-whites are more likely to be born into deprivation and poverty.
(DinivanXHas stinging piss after drinking Pact Coffee, Wed 9 Jan 2013, 16:49,
Reply)

There are tomes written on that.
The claimed solutions for the social ills have only seemed to worsen the problem.
(BrokenCoccyxdoesn't mind if you grope on, Wed 9 Jan 2013, 16:52,
Reply)

You can mock, but I am active in my community and have worked in government to attempt to change it.
I harbor no illusion that my efforts are small, but I keep working at it.
(BrokenCoccyxdoesn't mind if you grope on, Wed 9 Jan 2013, 16:57,
Reply)

Well good luck to you,
I don't want to disparage your efforts and I think we in the UK lead relatively sheltered lives and don't really appreciate the sort of fear you encounter every day, nevertheless I don't think "more guns" is the answer to any of these problems.

Well thats because the solutions always come from outside the affected communities
If "Da Man" has fucked you over your entire life why would you listen to "Da Man" when he says he has a solution to "your" problem
(DinivanXHas stinging piss after drinking Pact Coffee, Wed 9 Jan 2013, 16:56,
Reply)

I tell you what they should do,
the next time they just print a shedload of money to give to the banks for being rubbish banks, they should just give it to poor people instead. They want more consumer spending, don't they?
(Moon Girl Technologieshorrendous beanbag, Wed 9 Jan 2013, 17:09,
Reply)

But you're not allowed to help them out of it,
because that would be COMMUNISM.
(Moon Girl Technologieshorrendous beanbag, Wed 9 Jan 2013, 16:53,
Reply)

dude
that's fucking lame. you're desperately trying to build a strawman by hinting that happytoast is racist. get a fucking grip. disagree with people but use proper arguments. you're an intelligent man and ought to know better
(tickle!, Wed 9 Jan 2013, 17:53,
Reply)

dunno
maybe they should just mandate that all guns be pink and sparkly, see how many people still want to look hard on the streets carrying one.
(Moon Girl Technologieshorrendous beanbag, Wed 9 Jan 2013, 16:23,
Reply)

Aye, but I do often think that
the reason Switzerland isn't so fucked up is that they must be doing something right socially.
(monkeonschmonkeon, Wed 9 Jan 2013, 16:57,
Reply)

You're right. I have no doubt that poverty is responsible for a high %age of violent crime, as is the ubiquitous firearms.
The two points are not mutually exclusive, however.
(Tab HunterMake this useless process end and so, begin again, Wed 9 Jan 2013, 16:56,
Reply)

Yes, but the
gun crime debate seems to come down to "Guns are massively to blame" vs "Guns are not to blame at all".

I can't help but feel it is more "Guns are a bit to blame".
(monkeonschmonkeon, Wed 9 Jan 2013, 17:08,
Reply)

It helps to kill lots of people in one go, anyway.
I reckon that I'd personally go for poison if I wanted to kill someone.

I always had a crap aim on Operation Wolf and would probably miss with a gun.
(monkeonschmonkeon, Wed 9 Jan 2013, 17:21,
Reply)

If I just wanted to kill a shed load of people,
I'd buy a big 4x4 second hand, take it to a busy shopping street, and mount the pavement.
(Moon Girl Technologieshorrendous beanbag, Wed 9 Jan 2013, 17:24,
Reply)

There are people, such as celebrities and politicians, who believe only the "elite" should be protected...

or

There are people who believe that only the "elite", such as celebrities and politicians, should by guns be protected?

If the latter, then I take issue with the definition of "elite".

But I don't think I get the point you're trying to make - Are you suggesting that gun control will only leave the "elite" protected?

If only the police and army have guns, will they only protect celebrities and politicians?
(TheAlmightyBeev, Wed 9 Jan 2013, 16:14,
Reply)

Many leaders in the US have armed bodyguards; their children go to school with armed bodyguards.
Celebrities often have armed bodyguards; their children go to school with armed bodyguards. I understand the rationale, but when they turn around and say that same privilege should not be extended to the common man, I think that is wrong. Their children's lives are not more precious than mine.
(BrokenCoccyxdoesn't mind if you grope on, Wed 9 Jan 2013, 16:18,
Reply)

But isn't there something rather odd
about taking the need and desire for an armed bodyguard as perfectly normal? Don't you see that it's possible that there's something deeply wrong with a culture in which anyone wants an armed guard, elite or otherwise?
(Enzymeis powered by sunlight, Wed 9 Jan 2013, 16:23,
Reply)

It is not normal; it is a response to reality. But, if you can guarantee that everyone will be disarmed, including cops and millitary, you might have a shot
But, with an administration that has repeatedly stated that it will not enforce borders and the amount of drugs, weapons and humans that are trafficked across it, there is a huge danger. All these things make a lot of money and want to protect it. They protect it with guns and that goes up and down the chain.

If guns are banned in the US and manufacture stops, that border will then become a larger highway to supply the criminal need.
(BrokenCoccyxdoesn't mind if you grope on, Wed 9 Jan 2013, 16:29,
Reply)

Eh?
Oh, bugger this. Talking about guns with you is like trying to engage with the speaking clock.
(Enzymeis powered by sunlight, Wed 9 Jan 2013, 16:38,
Reply)