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Rhinoplasty in Stockholm, Sweden: comments on the fine, straight and chiseled Nordic nose

Submitted by Admin on Sun, 05/20/2007 - 18:02

Igor Niechajev (I.N.) and Per-Olle Haraldsson (P.O.H.), two of the most active rhinoplasty (nose jobs ) surgeons in Stockholm, Sweden, described the ethnic profile of their aesthetic rhinoplasty surgery patients from 1985-1995(1). The patients were residents of Stockholm, Sweden. The ethnic breakdown is shown below.

About 48% of the patients were non-Nordic, whereas in 1994, non-Nordic inhabitants were 12.5% of the population in Stockholm, i.e., the non-Nordic inhabitants were six times more likely to undergo aesthetic rhinoplasty than the Nordic inhabitants. Stockholm inhabitants of Middle Eastern extraction were 3.1% of the population in 1994, and were thereby 17 times more likely than the Nordics to seek nose jobs. Overall, the ratio of men to women among the patients was 1:1.3, but among people originating in Russia, Poland, and the former Czechoslovakia, this ratio was 1:17, which the authors attributed to many Slavic women being mail-order brides and thereby very particular about looking good.

Here is the comment by the authors as to why the non-Nordics are much more likely to seek nose jobs:

Why are ‘‘foreigners’’ having their noses operated on much more frequently than the native Swedes? Has the government’s official immigrant policy failed? Many of our ‘‘foreign’’ patients speak flawless or almost flawless Swedish, seek or keep good jobs, but still feel that their noses are against them. They feel that people stare at them. Rhinoplasty gave such patients increased self-assurance. Many, of course, requested surgery because they just wanted to look better. Others have experienced that an un-Swedish name or look is a major obstacle in the job market. By changing their names and diminishing their noses many Middle Easterners desire a more European, ‘‘Italian’’ look, which is much better accepted
(see example of the 16-year-old Middle Eastern girl below).

Sweden has introduced probably the most generous immigration laws in the world. Our country is internationally active and in the forefront of the U.N., UNESCO, International Red Cross, and other similar organizations, fighting for human rights and considers itself a consciousness of the world. This international success has unfortunately not been followed by an abolition of petty discrimination on the home ground. Legislations could be changed over night, whereas a profound change of attitudes in the society takes many decades. A part of our study confirms the integration bluff in Sweden. In order to be accepted by the society many emigrees have to change their names and buy new noses.

The authors are probably trying to offer a politically correct explanation above but have let the pictures in their paper speak for themselves as far as the real reason is concerned.

The authors provided illustrations of how non-Swedish noses differ from Swedish/Nordic noses by showing pictures of common types of noses found among the non-Swedish groups their patients came from.

The following example is of a Finnish woman. Compared to Swedes, the Finns, on average, have wider and flatter noses. The rate of aesthetic rhinoplasty among non-Swedish Nordics was not higher than among Swedish Nordics.

The following example is of a Slavic woman. For technical terminology, refer to this diagram. In Slavic noses, the dorsum is wider and the nasal tip is bulkier with strong, well-structured alar cartilages. The nose tip is either upturned or prominent. The height of the dorsum may match Swedish norms or be a little less. The naso-labial angle is > 90 degrees.

The following example is of a Greek woman, illustrating a common type of nose in the Mediterranean region; before surgery (left) and after straightening her nose and shaving off part of the columella. “Typical for this region is an ‘‘eagle’’ profile with the high, convex dorsum, ‘‘hanging’’ columella, and a naso-labial angle < 90 degrees. On the frontal view the tip can have crescent appearance and the dorsum is narrow. Both skeletal and cartilaginous parts of the nose are strong and well developed. The skin is moderately thick.”

The following example is of a Levantine (Dinaric) nose commonly found in the area close to the Mediterranean coast, corresponding to the areas of modern Lebanon and Syria. These noses are large and have a nasoglabial angle less than 90 degrees. The dorsum is frequently high and arching. “The nasal tip is fine and narrow. Nose contour from root to tip is long, but the columella is overshortened, pulling the tip in and down.”

The following example shows an Iraqi Kurd before his surgery (left) and after making his nose straighter. He is illustrating a common nose type in the Eastern Middle Eastern region (Iraq, Iran): large, strongly built, naso-labial angle of <90° and possessing thick and oily skin. “The nasal tip is wide and heavy containing large alar cartilages and a well-developed subcutaneous fat layer.”

The following example shows a “perfectly assimilated” 16-year-old girl of Middle Eastern origin who straightened her nose (A, C show pre-surgery pictures) to acquire a straighter-nosed southern European look.

The authors also described an example of the extreme kind of nose job requests they get. The following picture shows a 19-year-old woman of Korean ancestry who arrived with a very European-looking mannequin and said that she wanted the nose seen in the mannequin. She was advised not to have surgery.

The authors also provided the picture of a Swedish patient that sought refinement of her nose:

So what is the reason why a greater proportion of non-Nordics seek nose jobs? What does one expect if they live among a people where fine, straight and chiseled noses as among the following Swedish males are often encountered?

In the pictures of Nordic noses below (click for larger images), note the prominence of the nasal bones (upper part of the nose) in side view even though the nose itself is feminine and not overall very prominent, and contrast them with the upper nose projection of the 16-year-old Middle Eastern girl shown above, which is not prominent enough for the surgeon to give her nose a Nordic look, i.e., the woman can at most settle for a straighter Southern European look.

In a nutshell, the pictures speak for themselves with respect to answering the authors’ question, “Why are ‘‘foreigners’’ having their noses operated on much more frequently than the native Swedes?” The authors are no doubt aware of this but obviously couldn’t say it in the paper. The answer to this question is not the domination of Swedish society by Nordics. Whereas Nordic Swedes are not particularly known to be a thin-lipped European people, I doubt that non-Europeans are generally enthusiastic about thinner European lips. Untanned Nordic skin is also likely too pale for many non-Europeans, certainly a greater proportion than the proportion that does not appreciate fine, straight and chiseled Nordic noses (probably close to zero percent among Middle Eastern and Mediterranean populations). In addition, Moslems often despise the gender egalitarianism and women’s rights situation in the Nordic nations, the best of its kind, and would consider it an abomination to adopt the secular elements of Western culture, yet have admiration for fine and chiseled Nordic noses. How is this mix of admired, more or less neutral and despised Nordic traits explained? Obviously some admired features are intrinsically admired, which is explained very well by the pictures above.

On the other hand, there are some non-Europeans who make their nose look more European and end up dissatisfied as a result of losing a sense of ethnicity(2).

Consider a common tendency among noses in South Asia (India), shown below, where the dashed line describes the straightening that some Indians seek.

Famous Indian beauty Aishwarya Rai has the gently hooked nose shown above.

A south Asian woman is shown below with a surgically Europeanized nose (A, B, C), but she sought another nose job, nose implants to be more precise, to restore her ethnic looks somewhat (D, E, F); click image for larger version.

Similarly, the following example shows a Jewish man who had had a nose job (A, B, C), causing him to lose a sense of ethnicity, whereupon he had a nose implant to make his nose more prominent, though he kept it straight (D, E, F); click image for larger version.

I can totally see why all the non Swedish paitients are the ones getting rhinoplasty in Sweden. Because it must feel odd and embarassing to be surronded by all those perfect Nordic nosed Swedes.
Also by the way not all Scandinavian people are thin lipped at all many have full lips. Aishwarya Rai has a beautiful front profile but her side is well bad not pretty at all.

Karri: I didn't say anything along the lines of the Scandinavians being a thin-lipped people. I said that Nordic Swedes are not particularly known for being a thin-lipped European people. Compared to Mediterranean populations, lips do get thinner as you move up north and northwest, but the Scandinavians have fuller lips and are not part of this trend. It is, of course, true that even among the thinnest-lipped European populations, you will find numerous full-lipped people.

I accept that aishwarya's face is not in the good porportion when compare to european women, but aishwarya is exotic beauty in any case do u think so? she has Indian feature but having blue eyes and that's stunning? just like a picture of shabatgula, the afghan girl from national geography.

Alina: Aishwarya may be the most beautiful woman in the world, but this does nothing to alter the fact that she has a hook nose. The camera angle and timing aren’t responsible for the hook nose. They just happen to capture the hook nose clearly, contrasting with the majority of her pictures, such as those posted by “Love Aishwarya,” where the hook is not obvious, barely obvious or digitally edited.

I'm not clear what point you're trying to make with the cut and paste article. I also know that you dislike entering the philosophical realm Erik but what is the perfect nose? Is there a standard somewhere from which you compare? Like the perfect kilogram weight kept in France?
People find flaws only in contrast. If their existed only one nose in the world then it would neither be malformed or perfect. That said it is
an interesting phenomenon from an anthropological viewpoint.

It saddens me to see the Korean girl bring the head of the mannequin to the surgeons. It is almost aesthetic fascism. A proud Prussian nose, as possessed by some of the subjects above, could easily be considered perfect or the norm depending on the society the owner inhabits. Whereas a button nose, or a straight nose undesirable. Although straight is always best as far as you're concerned Erik, eh?

Debra: The pictures speak for themselves. The article touches on the majority’s preferences. You can observe for yourself how many go from straight to hook nose and vice versa. On the other hand, note also the issue of ethnic looks. Sometimes people lose their ethnic sense if their nose ends up too Westernized, and are not too happy about it. So it isn’t being argued that Western/Northern European norms are better, period.

Well, you are calling her pictures as being edited. Well I suppose the billions of pictures of Aishwarya out on the web and her movies are not proof enough that her nose is feminine enough. I suppose all those million pictures and movies have been photoshopped and edited? Are you crazy? Or just biased towards girls with non existent noses especially if they have typical trashy blonde looks.

If you can call Aishwarya's nose as being hooked then your porn models have Miss Piggy noses.
Erik just accept that they are very common looking( you can finding them at the mall, at the bus stop) You see one, you have seen them all. You are making it even worse by reducing them to a sex object.

You took great effort to find one picture where Aishwarya was kind of grimacing so that you could prove your point.
If you grimaced you would probably look like a psycho as well.

All you are doing on this website is just defending yourself because every person who comes on here just gets pissed off with your ludicrous statements.

I do admit they are well researched but it is very obvious they are biased (and so annoying)I am a very patient person and nothing has annoyed me this much.

You haven't answered my question either. Let me see a picture of your mother, she must be pretty old and masculine by now as northern european women tend to be when they get older. And if you do criticise her, then I will admit that you might truly be unbiased. Have respect for other women.

I have been trying to figure out why do you have this homophobic, racist, paedophilic and ageist (yes it is against growing old) website?

Have you seen the movie American Beauty where the retired army major who is a gay basher turns out to be a closet gay in the end.
Are you a closet gay? Go and see a psychiatrist because hatred for gays is your own internal. It is quite obvious the problem is internal and you are frustrated.

Go and take a good look in the mirror before criticising others.

Are you unbiased? Are you suffering from psychological problems? Take my advice and see a psychiatrist. Go get yourself a girlfriend. Travel the world, experience other cultures and lastly stop living in your own little world. You need help my friend, desperately.

Erik : even the picture of aishwarya rai you posted,or any pictures of her on internet I do not see anything wrong with her nose really, it dosen't appear to be hook nose, even the picture you post above, the hook nose in my vision is the witch nose, the bridge is curl and I do not see the curve of aishwarya's nose bridge. her nose tip is fine, I even wanted to have the same nose tip like her.
aishwarya looks very stunning, her face reminds me of princess jasmin in arabian night. have u ever watch the movie she played " Umraojaan? and taj mahal? she looks very gorgeous on that, I like her eyes very much, have never seen any women got that beautifull eyes like her.
her eyes are clear light blue just like cristal.

Here the picture of her on movie umraojaan

well, awhile I searching the websit I happened find out this picture, I wish you do not wanted that all women in this world look feminine and submissive like this portait? but seems many of your glamour models are look like this erik??

Aishwarya’s nose IS hooked, what is it blind fans? It is so obvious, her columella is droopy like Paris Hilton's and her nostrils pointed downward. Indeed she has beautiful eyes, and looks good on the photo with GURU inscription, but she doesn't look that good on other photos and commercials, ergo, that photo IS EDITED. And with such WITCH NOSE she is by definition NOT THE MOST BEAUTIFUL WOMAN IN THE WORLD. But don't worry, she can afford rhinoplasty.

Yes, and her toe nail is a bit big as well! Oh my god she must be masculine then. What are you trying to prove!!!?? Aishwarya has got Witches hook nose. You are nuts! And I suppose the whole world has crowned her the most beautiful woman in the world because she is so frikken ugly.
She was crowned Miss World.
She was on Oprah. She was on Larry whatsisname and she was on vogue and harpers bazaar and every tabloid and every website just because of her nose. Are you a schizophrenic?
It is obvious you have deliberately chosen her pictures that highlight her nose that way and ignored all the other pictures just because she threatens you.

Why don't you put up your misshapen mug on here? Good grief your right eye is facing west and the left one is facing east. Your earlobes are asymmetrical by .0000000001%. You must be ugly then!!!!

Anyway I am just here because I am bored at work. Happy Valentines day too all you nutty people LOL.

Yeah, world is full of "crowned" freaks, who need to edit their mugs. But, it is true, they can't do it always. I typed "Aishwarya Rai", chose pictures searching and voila, on the first page, there were all the truth diclosing photos. Most of her photos show the same.
Wow, I am threatened by all the possibilities of deformations.
And I don't have to edit my photos.

Well, I posted the pictures of aishwarya that I find those pictures look close to what I've seen her on the movie such as Guru, hum dil chuke sanam or umraojaan. she looks very beautifull on those flims, I do not know how she looks like on commercial in your country but as I watch her in India flims, she looks just like she is in the pictures I post. aishwarya has a kind of international face, her face always changed into many styles depending on how makeup artists'd make up her face. and I like that, some flim she appears to look like mulatta woman with beautifull golden skin and then in another flim she looks like aryan woman in the north of India with pink skin tone and red hair, some flim she looks like arabian princess etc. depending on the make up artists.

At least I am not logging onto websites like this being nasty about someone's appearance. You know it has gone too far when someone calls Aishwarya and the supermodels freaks because of their own personal biases.

What bothers me is that and what bothers me is the fact that this website has crossed all logic and reasoning beyond its own in calling every supermodel, actress beauty queen names like transvestites, men in drag. I mean why do you waste your precious life on such a website defending nasty statements that don't serve any purpose. Your words dont change the fact that Aishwarya, Giselle, Heidi, Alessandra, Adriana, Jessica Alba are beautiful women earning millions and chased by straight men.

And to nasty people like you and Erik. Do you know what is a beautiful person?
True beauty is what radiates from inside. Beauty which has a positive effect on everything that it comes across. The goodness of a human being.

I am married, been in the modelling business even though I am petite (5 '5) before marriage. I know it because I am loved and appreciated by friends, family and even acquaintances not because my earlobes and finger nails is perfect
I am appreciated and liked because I try to be a good human being and I know that I can't change this world but I try and make it a better place by always being good to other people and telling people what is good about them and not focussing on superficial details.
If you don't get what I mean I am sorry you will learn this in a very painful way because life will teach you and it won't be nice.

Alina : I also guess erik, de wanderer and bron are help each other to make this site.

To erik : I know you tried to promote white women beauty? but I think you are not fair enough to judge the white are the most feminine. such as Giselle Bunschen, she is german? and then u said she dosen't has a typical classic european face? so u can not judge that white people are the most feminine and prettier than oher race.
yes, we are all know that small lips, big rounded eyes, light eyes and light hair, narrow face are pretty? but tis dosen't mean the other type of the face can not be pretty too. I look at someone such as aishwarya rai, I cann't tell u why I find she is beautifull, it just can not tell and do not need to measure her ears, breasts and her nose. overall of each branch on her face together just look pretty, awhile some woman may has small lips, small body, small waist and huge breats but dosen't look pretty at all.

zonneschijn:I certainly am not helping on this site, apart from commenting, and that is what everybody else has been doing. I am absolutely entitled to do so, since these women are promoting themselves and are receiving fees for that on account of their looks; but I know what I admire, find beautiful or wish for myself, and what I dislike, that is all what I've had been uttering. And I don't like to be imposed with beauty standards that defy my innate preferences.

I am sorry, but all the photos you posted only prove my notion, the prettiest thing on them is that blonde doll. And noone will change my mind, not you, not Alina, nor Erik.

Alina:
How nasty were you when you labelled average blonde girls looks as trashy, and their noses piggy.How much would your friends appreciate your human goodness if they knew you wrote that? Oh, maybe you don't even associate with people with such looks?

I am not in want of appreciation from my family and friends either, maybe because they know I speak the truth, not what I prefer to be the truth. And my friends themselves say if they have hooked nose, or bad skin, or anything; your raging is futile, people notice how "perfect" that "beautiful" celebrities are.

Yes, I did start out by calling people with pug noses as having pig noses but that was to contradict the people who said Aishwarya's nose was hooked witch nose. I don't think what I said was right and similarly I don't think that it is mature to call someone like Aishwarya a witch out of pure spite. It is absurd.

I am afraid I am not influenced by the sex and lifestyle of celebrities who are in and out of jail or rehab or court or drugs.
No thank you.
The difference between mine and your opinion is that you think it is right to call someone and tell them that they are ugly just because of your own insecurities.

While I think it is very wrong to call someone ugly, I would rather lie. It is called a white lie.

You are entitled to your own opinion as long as it doesn't hurt anyone's self respect. But once it does , it is no longer an opinion.

Well I have already stated that you do notice that this website is quite
racist( blonde women with nordic looks),
paedohphilic (girls who look barely 15),
ageist (you are comparing these girls to women who are in their thirties or forties even)
homophobic ( it blames all of it to transvestites and homosexuals, fashion is a gazillion dollar industry and not every fashion label has a gay designer)

Having said my 2 cents I think I have wasted enough time on this useless website.

for the weak english language that I have, but I think I quit understand what u do u mean. and I do not need to explain more than this to change the narrow conception that u have so I can only say to u.
please open your eyes more wider and spend more time to learn this world, and u will find out what u really love and can be die for is not the feminine in women. but it's her manner and character.
personally I do not like nordic look that much, such as blond hair, chubby cheeks, no eyelids etc. I always feel the blond hair is different from ordinary humen's hair. when I touch it I feel like I touch the pig hair ( it dosen't sleek and smooth like healthy dark hair) but even that I also do not againt as the author of this site seem afraid the blond people situation'd come into the crisis. and some blonde women are also can be cute too like sarah deborah uger, as same as some black women but with exotic light gray eyes I also find she looks stunning. but try to think? why this nature create a lot of dark hair people than blond? that's because dark hair and dark eyes are positive and healthy.

anyway, I prefer the elegrant women that look just like a princess, like aishwarya rai or natalie glaebova. I watched a lot of her movies and u can try find one such as "Umraojaan" or "taj mahal". she has delicated arms, hands and legs. her face is stunning and exotic. I find she isn't look like ordinary woman but portait or barbie doll.

I think the owner of this site already ashamed of propagating such twisted beauty. ( if he has some mankind blood enough) that's why he is gone and denie to answer on our questions, it's too blushing for him to return back, and defend ridicul on the opposite of sex that he find they are too elegrant toward him.

anyway thanks erik and all his disciples, for giving me the new kind of beauty logic. I used to determine beauty is in the overall of each women, different women have different beauty, some with dark skin, thick lips also can be pretty on their way. I do not think in reality u'd measure some woman's breasts, mouth, waist before u'll say she is pretty.

Alina:
Stop addressing me, I'm not interested in circumlocutory chatting with you, and revolving my arguments; I don't want to hurt your feeble feelings, but you act as if you have problems with short term memory.
I've already explained to you how hateful you are, and I can only append : also hypocritical.

Not tell a friend that she has bad teeth or skin? Rather assign her to ridicule and ostracism, that's very loving. You hypocrite.
Regarding deformities of nose , as I said, that is patent, and is needless to point at, if someone has any than he probably knows it; only blatant liars would deny what is obvious. Hooked nose is a hooked nose is a hooked...And no one around me find it a desirable feature to cherish on themselves, so I suppose, no sane person would cherish it on other ,except on someone beloved, (but that is not objective, right?).
If I've had not been provoked by your idiotic and idolatrous defending of Aishwarya, I would have not be writing anything on that matter, she was pretty otherwise, especially her bright, wide set eyes.

I think it's quite not right much, to say the disporportion things in other people. I actually see beauty in every women. for me, aishwarya nose isn't that terrible hooked witch. and even she'd has one I also do not determine that hooked nose is ugly. she is good looking in overall of her body, as I said before that beautifull is not just small lips, blond hair and narrow face. but beauty is overall of appearance looks not bad. all glamour models of this site are look not bad also but they are look not elegrant enough for being called "beautifull".

Beautifull women would not mean only feminine features. but the most important thing is "look good, attractive, almost of people find her beauty.

The girl u post looks fine, bron. u know I always find beauty in every women, but the fact is, which one is the most pretty and that's called beauty. personally, u know I think everyone know what's feminine and masculine. but will u believe or not? in my vision, I find the woman whom have also male look in her face and character is cute, mystery, interesting and provocateur.

And beautifull for me no need to measure their organs. for me “overall” is the most important.

By theorie, small lips, big eyes, narrow face seem to identify beauty. but as I said before that beauty can come into many ways.
I find blond hair and blue eyes are interesting too. but I do not want it on me because I think it looks too pale.( my personally tast I like elegrant thing) and I find blonde girls can make only one look for themselves. and that's princess, babydoll and tenderness. in real life u need more ordinary woman who can stay beside u, she is no need to be unrealistic porn star or princess. but smart, cheerfull and look good.

for the european girl I find audrey tautu and mylean farmer are terrific, modest looking, ordinary but cute.

the blondy, I find laura linney is nice.
but exotic, sexiess and beautifull in same time I find Aishwarya rai, Natali Glebova, Adiana lima and Suleyka miss puerto rico are.

oriental girls I find they are lovely too, gentle and innocent.

u see I find beauty in every one except she has pretending character such as winona ryders and kiera knightley I do not like their character much. but still I find they have pretty face.

I think that people find faces with similar features to themselves most atractive whatever race that person is, beauty is not link to a race or even conventional thinking, I really think it's the person who is beautiful or ugly, whatever there appearence is like.

This woman Aish, the actress- she is pretty in a striking, almost unreal way. Like one of those multicultural barbies that isn't quite white or black or oriental and so on, but has a mixture of qualities of all , some even incongruous, like the eyes- you don't expect to see light eyes in India. She's not very dark, but has a full mouth- like they took certain qualities from all cultures - as if it were a multiculti Pygmalion. I don't know what I would guess she was if I didn't know. Maybe would guess white and middle eastern or some kind of oriental and white- hard to say, but can say there are not many that have that 'mixture look' that is this complex. Or maybe I haven't seen that many lighter India Indians.Of course there are some things that are considered either beautiful in an aesthetic way- symmetry, proportion, and then things that are beautiful because they are unusual or rare.

Um... Nordic women accounted for 52% or 272 patients total. This is more than all the rest added up? How does this study prove your point? Also, Nordic women are known for higher nose bridges and longer noses in general. There have also been many studies done and it is proven that a white person becomes more attractive as they near Asian and visa verca. There are also many studies that indicate that mixed persons are most attractive especially with Asian because Asian features are most delicate. Eurasians are rated as the most attractive in many studies. When mixed with Asians there is a higher chance for average features. That is a nose bridge that is not as high as the caucasians, a face not as narrow, eyes not so close set,etc. The human brain processes averageness easier therefore averageness is considered more attractive. Also, Asians have the least testosterone than any other race and are more feminine than any other race. African American have the most testosterone, Caucasians are in the middle, Asians have the least.

Her nose is obviously not nordic. It so softer than a nordic nose. get over yourself.

A nordic nose also has the tendence to become convex. There are many middle eastern or indian women that have beautiful noses. In fact many times softer and more feminine than nordic noses. They are not in the minority either. Your arguments have no backbone and are clearly a reflection of deep issues. I question whether you have an inferiority complex problem that is manifested in putting down other ethnicities?

I'm sorry I just fail to see why most people prefer the "Nordic" nose. Her nose is too thin. Not to mention her face is too thin to be desirable and I see this trend in most nordic women. Her eyes are strange and cold. I was never a fan of blue eyes. They always looked a bit unhealthy to me. Lack of color in my opinion is least attractive in Nordic women. The light hair is alright, but it comes with light eyelashes and eyebrows. Darker eyebrows and eyelashes seem more "fertile" to me. Their lips are often too thin. From my experience they age badly. This is not to say all white European women age badly. Being myself white, I admit I am attracted to white women and they are my preference. I have traveled throughout Europe and I realized I prefer Polish or Czech women. They take care of themselves but they also have the facial bone structure and body structure to be attractive even if they don't take care of themselves. They too often have blonde hair, but I like it on them. They often have light eyes as well but they are never quite gray/light blue and often have more color in them.

Now Kim Kardashian is not my ideal woman. I am not a fan of the "exotic" dark hair and eyes etc. I think it is overdone and never was really attracted to women like this. However, I like her tan and if she was one or two shades lighter at least hair wise I would find her most attractive. Here is a picture of Kim at a very young age.

Now, here she is in her twenties. She developed to become a bit more mascunilized as most women do as they develop and later start to age. Her nose becomes thinner but notice still that her nose still appears a bit wider and youthful than your typical nordic nose. Although it is long it is still more desirable and softer looking.

I could not find a good picture of her sister Kourtney, but Kourtney has a nice nose as well.

Kate Winslet in my opinion is very feminine and beautiful. She has an extremely attractive nose. However, this is not within the European norms. Neither are her lips or far set eyes.

Britney Spears also has a nice nose and eye area. She is not within normal European norms either even though she too is technically English as are most Americans that originate from her home state.

I notice most "Nordic" celebrities express the desired nordic features but never to the Nordic "norms". It is interesting. The ideal "Nordics" people see in the media are never really how normal Nordics look is it?

Sorry, when I say European norms in the above posts I mean NORTHERN European norms. Also, to the person who posted about Charlize Theron you are wrong. She is not the poster child for Northern European women. You should go study some anthropology because you have no idea what you are talking about. Charlize Theron is of French and German decent. She is not 100% Nordic. Her French features are clear. Her face is rounder and this is not common among Nordic women. They tend to have more elongated faces as the woman above. Her nose is not as well defined as a Nordics person and her lips are not as thin. She is not the poster child for Nordic women.

Here are some examples of young Swedish women and men. They are not famous, just ordinary people. These photos were taken in well-known nightclubs in Stockholm. Fredrik Ljungberg is the only famous Swede among these.

I hope Erik will find the photos interesting. I don't believe you have many of Swedes/ Nordics on your site. I think these photos speak for themselves as to the beauty of the Swedes.

I'm not "impressed" with her looks. In fact, the ordinary Swedes I have posted here outcompete her. The Indians are not attractive to most Europeans, and the only thing that makes her appealing is the fact that she looks less ethnically Indian. It is her white qualities that appeal to us, not her Indian ones, and especially not the ugly Indian nose. I hope this clears it up.

What are you trying to prove? That Swedes look better than Indians? Aishwarya is not regarded as beautiful because of her "whiteness", In fact she had to struggle to turn famous like every other actress. If you go to Mumbai or Goa many clubs have attractive young things as well.

I am a dinaric according to the "sub-races" and I express many dinaric features. The hooked nose is def. one of them. Although I would say it actually is just bumpy not hooked. Now I am not 100% sure what dinaric is. Many anthropologists claim it is a mix between the alpine and mediterranean race. I think that this is accurate, however I question this because I notice alpines mixed with nordics are more likely to express dinaric features such as myself.My family on my mothers side which are basically of an alpine/mediterranean mix have nicer features than those on my dads side. My father is 100% German. We still have family in Northern Germany from his side. It is actually from my fathers side that I recieved my bumpy nose (just a straight nose with a bump on it). All my cousins on this side also have a bumpy nose. My mother's side of the family is not Nordic like my fathers but Dinaric. Her brother is the only person in the whole family that has a hooked nose. For some reason his daughter did not inherit it although I suspect perhaps her sons or someone will. What I am trying to say is
a) Contrary to popular belief most dinarics do not actually display a hooked nose or even big nose. Although this will be seen more commonly among the men, it is not as common as anyone would like to think

b)Dinarics in my opinion are more commonly of Nordic and Alpine mix instead of a Alpine and Mediterranean mix. I say this because my sisters and I have more "dinaric" features than anyone on my mothers supposedly dinaric side of the family. I would say they are close to dinarics but that my sister and I are the true dinarics and this is simply because of our Nordic features. Our Nordic features make us look more dinaric than my mothers side of the family.

c)Eric, Your picture of a Dinaric is inaccurate. A dinaric looks absolutley nothing like the man in that picture and even a classic hooked dinaric nose is not anything like in that picture. Please provide more accurate pictures of dinarics you can find them almost anywhere, there are tons.

Lastly, I admit I have a bumpy nose. My nose is almost exactly like the picture of the Swedish woman you posted who wanted nose refinement. I mean it is EXACTLY like hers except that my nose bridge is not nearly as high. I must admit if I could choose any nose I would like it would not be my own. However, it would not be a typical nordic nose either. Either way you are born the way you are born. I have no control over my genes or ancestry. I am what I am, and I am content with this. I don't understand why people go so crazy over this website. Eric is posting his conclusions to the data he studied. Whether he is right or wrong does not matter. I believe that no matter who you are and what you look like you should just do your best to get by in the world. I am very talented. I have an amazing singing voice, I am an artist and have created amazing drawings and paintings, I am athletic and very flexible. I can excel in anything from academics to the arts to sports. I doubt that my nose is going to get in the way of anything. It certainly has not gotten in the way of my ability to select and have which ever male I desire. Most importantly however, my nose and the way I look has nothing to do with me. When I die I will not be remembered by my nose or how I look. I will be remembered by my actions, beliefs, and the decisions I have made in my life. In the end whether one is Indian or Nordic they turn into dirt. We all die and all that is left behind is our legacies. What have you done in this life? What are your morals and values? How will you live on? I will live on through my choices regarding others!

Emily: I am sorry but you have self-esteem issues. I would advise that you please gain your self-esteem from your beliefs, morals, and values as a human being instead of the way you look. In only a decade you will start to age and you will no longer be an "ideal" woman as the younger women will take this role. Thank you.

Reading your insecure posting you seem to be the one with self-esteem issues. If you "don't really care" why bother writing here? Seems you are also dishonest. This is a site that deals with looks and femininity. By its very nature it is therefore superficial, and doesn't pretend to be anything else.

Now, I posted pictures of Swedish persons after reading comments here which I thought were entirely false. People can now see for themselves what nordics/ swedes look like. I don't intend to let false comments about nordics go unanswered. The truth is what matters, as on any issue, even when it apparently displeases some who are not so fortunate when it comes to looks.

If Aishwarya is only beautiful because she looks MORE Nordic and LESS Indian then why is she considered the most beautiful woman in the world? If Nordic women are soo beautiful than why doesn't the title go to a FULLY Nordic woman instead of to a kinda Nordic woman like Aishwarya? Please use some logic before you post stupid arguments. Not to mention that Aishwarya does not look Nordic at all. The truth is that Nordic women will actually on average have more mascunilized features. Nordic women need blonde hair and blue eyes to soften their features. The reason that few Nordic women with brown hair/brown eyes are around is because they died out as a result of sexual selection. The blonde haired blue eyed women got selected because for the most part the soft coloring balanced out the hard bone structure. There is nothing soft about a long straight nose, thing lips, long skull. Simple as that. Northeast Asian women for example would not be selected if they had blonde hair blue eyes. They have such soft features that the coloring might make them LESS attractive. Asians actually do have different hair colors and even eye colors, not blue, but light brown. These simply were not selected over the dark hair and eyes. Why? Because the dark hair and eyes balance out the feminine features of Asian women and even Asian men. Asians have less testosterone than Nordics. I am just using them as an example.

The truth is that Nordic features are only desirable when averaged out and mixed with other features that are non-Nordic. Fully Nordic features rarely turn out as good as "Nordic Enthusiasts" make them out to be. Central Europeans who express some Nordic features but other features as well are in my opinion far more attractive than pure Nords.

The truth is that your opinion is not shared by the majority of people. Nordics are widely regarded as the most beautiful of all. I have posted photos here of pure nordics, pure Swedes, not "averaged out" ones, so anyone here can form their own opinion, of course.

"If Aishwarya is only beautiful because she looks MORE Nordic and LESS Indian then why is she considered the most beautiful woman in the world?"

She is not. Just by some media. Surely not in Scandinavia where people often look extremely good, and prefer another type. In India, where people don't look good at all in general, she is considered very beautiful, of course.

"If Nordic women are soo beautiful than why doesn't the title go to a FULLY Nordic woman instead of to a kinda Nordic woman like Aishwarya? Please use some logic before you post stupid arguments."

You make me laugh. You have an almost white-looking woman who YOU say is the prettiest one..you prove MY point, without even realizing it. She has almost nothing in common with ordinary Indians as far as looks go.

" Not to mention that Aishwarya does not look Nordic at all. "

No. She doesn't have their refined facial features, oval face, straight nose or elegant and tall body, and she doesn't look typically Indian either. You can find beautiful women everywhere. My point is that ON AVERAGE, if you take 500 people in Mumbai and in Stockholm, and compare their looks, Swedish people win by a landslide. That's the simple truth. That's the interesting thing to compare - not movie stars and beauty pageants.

Swedish brunettes. You don't have to be blonde in order to look good if you are nordic. Sexual selection hasn't made good-looking brunettes extinct in Sweden. ;) Sometimes you have to laugh when you read some of the misconceptions about nordics written here.

Emily
Out of the Swedish women whose pics you posted honestly I only find 2 or 3 out of 10 of them good looking.
its quite clear you are using pictures of some of the worst looking Indians to make your point strong and your inferiority complex less painful.
If you think the Swedish women whose pictures you posted are better looking than Aishwarya Rai (actually I do agree her nose is not the best) all I have to say is that is your opinion.
Throughout India, in different areas, and the Middle East there are extremely beautiful women with large dark eyes and green eyes and blue eyes, gorgeous curled, thick eyelashes (much fewer examples of this exist among Northern Europeans) thicker more voluminous more playful hair than any Nordic who mostly have limp, lifeless hair. also coarse hair is not necessarily unmanageable. Having bigger noses doesn't necessarily detract from the beauty of a face as long as the nose suits the entire face. non-nordic women have round faces instead of oval??? and have broad and fat lips?? what the......I guess you haven't seen much of the world.
though I find some Nordic women cute, most strike me personally as too blonde, to pinkish or pale, too tall, too plain, most have colorless eyelashes and need excessive liner or mascara to improve their ghastly appearance.
So anyways Emily remember that opinions are opinions. aishwarya is in her mid 30s now and has changed a lot. She could be like every other mentally ill western celebrity and rush to the surgeon to correct any signs of aging from liposcution to botox to rhinoplasty, but she is so accomplished I don't thinks she feels the need to always look young and pretty.
I have yet to see a nordic woman become as famous and revered as she and I know this must upset people such as yourself who think you are more deserving of such fame and recognition.
as for erik maybe one day the fashion industry will bring more feminine, healthy looking women but it won't be because of anything you have done.

No. I used pictures of ordinary Swedes and ordinary Indians. From discos in Sweden and India (mumbai), respectively. Indians generally don't look at all like their Bollywood ideals. Nordics/ Scandinavians DO look like their own ideal since they are generally closer to the ideal of beauty than ordinary Indians. I don't have any inferior complexes, and projecting onto me your own insecurities won't make your point.

The fact is that Swedes are much more beautiful, on average, than Indians are, since Indian facial features, extremely round faces, brown-yellowish complexion, huge hooked noses and so forth is not the beauty ideal, not even among Indians, who try to look as white as possible.

Erik is right, they often do have plastic surgery performed on them in order to look less Indian/ ethnic, not only in Sweden but also in India. Saying so, and proving it by showing pictures of ordinary Indians - not movie stars - doesn't make me insecure, it makes me correct.

Another thing; People should stop attacking me personally, saying I must be this or that. It doesn't make your case, it only shows you cannot refute the argument. I could easily say that people attacking me personally are the ones with inferior complexes, and that they are only envious. Looking at the pictures I have posted of ordinary Nordics and of ordinary Indians people will have a fairly good idea what the truth is.

There are very good looking Indians, but they are less common. You won't find them immediately on the street in Calcutta. You WILL however find extremely good looking Swedes just by leaving your apartment in Stockholm. There IS a difference here, and those who refuse to face that fact are the ones who are envious and in denial, I think. Take 500 people in Mumbai..from the street..and take 500 people in Malmoe..from the street.. and there is no question as to who comes closer to their own beauty ideal, and who has the most beautiful people on average.

The article is about the nose, but the discussion has digressed into a lot of issues that are not related to the article. I have lots of comments to reply to, and I had better get around to replying to them or else the discussion will become worse. My first of a series of comments shall be about some misconceptions regarding Swedes and Indians that is not helping the discussion, which shouldn’t be here in the first place.

In this paragraph I will be specifically talking about white/Nordic Swedes. The only group in Sweden that is mostly blond comprises of children. Among adults, about 1 in 3 have some shade of blond hair. Most of the rest have various shades of brown hair and some have black or red hair. The frequency of blue eyes is probably around 55%, not all the same shade; the rest comprise of all other eye colors found in humans. Therefore, the chief characteristic of Nordic hair and eye color is its diversity, not the blond-blue-eyed combination, which only a minority of adults have.

The indigenous populations of Sweden comprise of different ethnic groups, the majority being the Hallstatt or Österdal Nordic type, which is especially prevalent in Southern Sweden. The Hallstatt Nordic is the reference standard for Nordic beauty. Therefore, pictures of ordinary individuals belonging to this ethnic group had best be sourced from Southern Sweden. In northernmost Sweden, one runs into the Saami or Lapps, a white-Asian mixed people. Cities like Malmo would not be a good place because lots of immigrants live here. Cities like Stockholm would be a valid choice but the problem of cosmopolitan cities is that they have their fare share of immigrants, and in the settings from which Emily’s pictures are drawn, a non-trivial number of whites will not be of the Hallstatt Nordic type, but see enough of these pictures and those who have not been to Sweden can figure out what Nordic white looks are about.

There is a lot of ethnic diversity in India, and if ordinary individuals from the best-looking group in Sweden, the Hallstatt Nordic, are offered as examples of the average attractiveness of Nordic Swedes, then it is only fair that ordinary individuals from the best-looking group(s) in India be shown to assess the average attractiveness of the better looking groups in India. It appears that Andrea has no idea about these people or she would not cite Mumbia and Goa as examples (both in central India) to counter Emily. The better looking Indians – by the standards of the Indians – cluster among the upper caste people and their equivalent in Northern India. Look at this collage, featuring upper caste Hindus, presumably from the Northern regions, and specifically note the ethnic characteristics. In this collage, all people shown are ordinary Indians, not models or actors. The images are not supposed to be representative, but my point will become clear shortly. These Indians will be found to be among the better looking ordinary Indians by Indians in general because their face shapes are closer to European norms and also because their skin is lighter, on average. These Indians will also be found to be among the better looking ordinary Indians by Swedes because their face shapes are closer to European norms – skin color will usually not be an issue for Swedes or Europeans in general.

The nice thing would be to come across pictures of large groups of Northern upper caste Hindus in ordinary settings, but there are some caveats here. Upper caste Hindus or their equivalents are a minority among Indians whereas the Hallstatt Nordic predominates in Sweden, especially the southern region. When a majority Hallstatt Nordic population absorbs a few people of other European ethnies, the average characteristics of the Hallstatt group barely change, whereas when a minority of upper caste Hindus slowly absorb the majority among which they live over a long time, then this minority changes significantly. Hence, it is not at all unusual to see upper caste Hindus with facial features more common among the lower castes and untouchables. The other caveat is that the Indian government has maintained an aggressive affirmative action program that provides jobs and high quality education to untouchables (many times the number of upper caste people) and miscellaneous low caste individuals. So in many settings, say, office settings, we will see these untouchables and other low caste people along with upper caste Hindus. See this picture of college students from a campus in Northern India. You can see some individuals of the more Northern variety (lighter skin, faces closer to European norms) along with others presumably disproportionately comprising of lower caste or untouchable descent or having more of these elements.

If Andrea – or anyone else – doesn’t believe me, I recommend befriending some upper caste Hindus from the North and asking them how much they appreciate the average looks of the Indians other than the Northern ones. Honest Indians from the central or south regions will acknowledge their admiration for the looks of upper caste Northern Indians and their equivalent. This is reflected in Indian movies and among Indian models. This would also be generally reflected among Indian beauty pageant contestants were it not for political considerations that often elevate the darker, more aboriginal-facial-featured women. These political considerations would be less successful in movies since the average consumer doesn’t have high regard for more aboriginal facial features. The Indian government has also been known to ban some advertisements for skin lightening creams, and there are lots of dark Indians who complain about skin color prejudice in India, even calling it racist. So, Andrea’s Mumbai or Goa example was a bad one, and her pictures of ordinary Indians are bad, too. Ordinary individuals from the most attractive group that Sweden has to offer – the Hallstatt Nordic – should be contrasted, if there is any such need, with ordinary individuals from the most attractive group that India has to offer – the upper caste Northern Indians and their equivalent among non-Hindus.

"These Indians will be found to be among the better looking ordinary Indians by Indians in general because their face shapes are closer to European norms and also because their skin is lighter, on average. These Indians will also be found to be among the better looking ordinary Indians by Swedes because their face shapes are closer to European norms – skin color will usually not be an issue for Swedes or Europeans in general."

Erik you are not as educated as I thought. Indians on average have a similair face shape to Nordic populations because they are a dolichocephalic ARYAN group of people. They had this face shape before any "Nordics" did. Before any people lived in any of the Northern areas of Europe. The ones with rounder/robust faces are obviously mixed Indians. Usually with Asians in the North just as in Sweden you have your Nordics mixed with the Asian type people there.

There is also an argument that mixture with Asian groups ON AVERAGE increases attractiveness in an individual. There are many scholarly articles written on this and much research that has obtained these results. After all your whole website is about femininity and as an ethnic group Asians ARE the most feminine. You cannot argue with this, it is simply fact. They have the least testosterone production most estrogen production than ethnic Caucasians or Africans. Africans produce the most testosterone and are most masculine. This is the result of adapting to a harsh environment like Africa. White people are in between. If you notice Asians are the least athletic on average than any other group instead relying on flexibility and mind over matter techniques rather than sheer strength, speed, etc. Notice that Asians often excel in sports such as gymnastics that requires much flexibility. They also are well known for marshall arts, etc. They break boards with concentration not muscle strength. They are not athletic they just have good control over their bodies. They are the most feminine race and therefore admixture with them often results in a very attractive female. You can argue all you want with this but the research is abundant. It is not true that people are most attractive to their ethnic norm. Someone that looks extremely white is not attractive. Women that look too white are not attractive. Women that look too Asian are not attractive. Women that look too black are not attractive.

Emily: The fact that you compare Asians to Neanderthals baffles me. Neanderthals were dolichocephalic. The Asian skull shape is the most distinct from the original Neanderthal skull. Northern Europeans and Africans have dolichocephalic skulls and they more closely resemble the Neanderthal skull. However, modern humans are more refined in terms of facial features. No one race truly looks like a neanderthal did and Asians are the farthest away from looking like a neanderthal. Please Emily educate yourself. Your assumptions are based on your observations which are not accurate. The pictures you posted of Swedish women all over the internet do not support your arument. I found very few that were feminine. Although Asians can have robust features,but only if you have an Asian that lives in a harsh environment or if they go to their extreme ethnic features. Similarly a Nordic with features to the extreme ethnic spectrum have robustity and are unattractive as well in these terms:

Overly long jaw/face
Robust long jaw in males and females
extremely wide and thin lips
Nose that is long and too thin
Close set dull colored eyes
Pink or white pale skin
Hair that is too light resulting in lack of defined eyebrows/eyelashes
Long lanky bodies with little breast tissue in females

Here is an example of "Nordic" features in the extremes.

Caroline Winberg:

Notice the discoloration of the eyebrows and skin with a pinkish tone. Notice the LONG skull and long face, the robust long jaw and yes with a long jaw LONG teeth. Notice the WIDE LIPS.Typically a woman with extreme Nordic features would be called a "horse face".

Here is Claudia Schiffer.

To me Claudia may be mixed with some Asian dna however obviously it is not very recent and she still has extreme NORDIC features. She has the typical "horse face" and wide lips, etc.

Whether it is the result of admixture or not, people do look better when they are NOT closer to their ethnic extremes. A Nordic with all the extreme Nordic features would be a robust tall looking horse face. An Asian with extreme features would have tiny eyes and a face much too wide. You get the point.

A Nordic woman with a face that is a bit wider but eyes that are a tiny bit farther set, teeth that are a bit shorter, lips that are a bit smaller and less wide, would be more attractive. She does not have to be mixed with Asian. There are many 100% Nordic people that are not mixed yet they are better looking because their features are not extreme in terms of their ethnicity. Most Nordic women do not have extreme features and are on average extremely attractive. However Emily, the ironic thing here is that many if not most of the women's pictures you post have extremely evident indications of mixture with Asians. The nose, and eyes are a giveaway!

"After all your whole website is about femininity and as an ethnic group Asians ARE the most feminine. You cannot argue with this, it is"

Very large, fat noses, broad, coarse and round faces, tiny breasts, buttocks and hips, and very short legs, are not features that make Asian women feminine or attractive. Neither is the typical brownish- or yellowish skin color. These typical features are sometimes even ugly to white people. Asians that Westerners do find attractive are the ones who look more caucasian and LESS Asian. They will have a more oval and narrow face with a smaller, more Nordic-looking noses, white skin without the unattractive yellowish- or brownish hue, larger breasts, buttocks and hips, and longer legs. Non-Asian men don't find the very often underdeveloped bodies of Asian women feminine.

"If you notice Asians are the least athletic on average than any other group instead relying on flexibility and mind over matter techniques rather than sheer strength, speed"

Being weaker/less athletic, and having a weak and underdeveloped body is not feminine, it is just..weakness. Most men find the underdeveloped bodies of Asians less attractive. Asian women's bodies often look like those of an adolescent - and not like women. Why are borderline pedophiles so often attracted to Asians, men who like cute little "girls" instead of women? Because Asian women look underdeveloped. Most Western men prefer the beautiful hour-glass figure of a white woman to the strangely weak and underdeveloped body of an Asian woman.

" They are the most feminine race and therefore admixture with them often results in a very attractive female. You can argue all you want with this but the research is abundant. It is"

Being good for race mixing is hardly an argument that proves that Asians are more feminine, it just means they are good for breeding with other races who are generally superior in looks. They have the femininity of an underdeveloped adolescent girl! In order to look like sexy, curvaceous and adult women they need to be mixed with other races, apparently.

"not true that people are most attractive to their ethnic norm. Someone that looks extremely white is not attractive. Women that look too white are not attractive. Women that look too Asian are not attractive. Women that look too black are not attractive."

A VERY white woman is often VERY attractive. I agree that very Asian- or black looking women generally are not. That is what sets Nordics and whites in general apart from the rest.

I live in Sweden. I see EXTREMELY good-looking Nordic people - pure Nordics - every day here. Women with beautiful and refined facial features, gorgeous eyes the color of the sea or the sky, silky and soft hair, often the color of gold and honey, long legs, slender and feminine bodies with hips and breasts that befit a woman.

Men LOVE pure Nordic women and come here from all over the world in order to see the famous Nordic women. Women in Stockholm, for example, are often "extremely white", as you put it, and many men regard these women to be the most beautiful on earth.

"Emily: The fact that you compare Asians to Neanderthals baffles me."

Some Asians do somewhat resemble Neanderthals. The pictures speak for themselves. You may disagree, but you are in a tiny minority if you say Nordics/ whites look more like Neanderthals than Asians or blacks do.

"Overly long jaw/face"

Only if you prefer round or square faces. Most white people do not.

"Robust long jaw in males and females"

Robust? No, not often in women. Well-defined, yes.

"extremely wide and thin lips"

Not so at all. Many have full lips, actually.

"Nose that is long and too thin"

For Asians, maybe, who often have huge and VERY broad noses. Of course the perfect Nordic nose is bound to cause some envy. ;)

"Close set dull colored eyes"

No, normal-set eyes, actually. Close-set eyes are in a clear minority. Again, you have absolutely no idea what people here generally look like. Eye color; clear, bright- or dark blue or green, the most amazing color of the sea, and anything BUT dull. Frankly, your comment is so full of inaccuracies that I suspect envy was the motivation for it.

"Pink or white pale skin"

Skin the color of cream, actually. Mix in a few peaches. Nordics also tan very well. The pale kind that doesn't tan - often followed by carrot-red hair - is NOT the typical Nordic skin. Sometimes you see a slight pinkish tone after exercise, or when blushing. Very sexy and attractive. Asian yellowish-white skin that doesn't show any sign of blood look like a serpent's belly. Dead - not alive. Men adore a woman who blushes. Guess what? A blush is pinkish.

"Hair that is too light resulting in lack of defined eyebrows/eyelashes"

Too light? LOL Ok, ask most men if they mind.

"Long lanky bodies with little breast tissue in females"

Give me a break. Tall and feminine bodies with long and elegant legs and normal- to large breasts. Asian women are well-known for their lack of feminine and shapely bodies, on the other hand, so any comparison will not be in their favor.

The pictures of the model you chose would have been relevant if she had been representative of the ordinary Nordic woman. She's the extreme kind of model that gay fashion designers love. I prefer pictures of ordinary, real women - people you can see every day in Scandinavia.

It is well-known that high-fashion models often are extremely masculine, and have hard, chiseled features. These models shouldn't be used as an example of a Nordic type of woman, simply because that is NOT what Nordic women generally look like.

I decided to check on this, and indeed, Caroline is one of THE most masculine and extreme models you could find. She is an exception, bordering on caricature, so using her is hardly fair, nor empirically correct. It's a shame that a negative agenda and/ or envy often cloud people's judgment. Of course gay fashion designers - who secretly must detest women - love these types of models. That is what this site is all about.

There are more appropriate examples of Nordic women among fashion models, but since the person using Caroline's photos wanted to give a false impression of the Nordic woman as some kind of uber-masculine freak, he or she ignored models like these. The incorrect stereotype with her extremely long and masculine face, square, hard jaw and skin that doesn't tan, is NOT what Nordic women generally look like. Those who are ill-informed, or have an agenda, often misrepresent the truth.

Here are Nordic fashion models that look more like women you see in Nordic countries. Don't expect to see great femininity in these women - just models who are better examples of the Nordic woman. The Nordic nose is of course also beautifully and correctly illustrated here.

Since we were presented with photos of an extremely masculine Swedish fashion model that purported to be some kind of representation for Nordic women I think we should take a look at Asian fashion models.

I found plenty of masculine women, and many that are VERY androgynous. It is common knowledge that there are many transvestites and transsexuals in Asia who work as prostitutes. It is so easy to change gender for Asians since women are often underdeveloped and men not very masculine, making the line between masculine and feminine and the sexes become more vague. When you look at photos of Asian models you cannot always tell what gender she is unless she's in full make-up.

Here are Asian fashion models. The most feminine women? Well, not in the fashion world. Asians are probably the most androgynous women on average, though.

Man or woman? The lipstick makes it more apparent.

Better-looking "whitish" Asian model.

Better-looking "whitish" Asian model.

Pure Asian-looking model.

Pure Asian-looking model.

Pure Asian-looking model.

Trying to look white for Vogue? Again we see the strange androgyny. With short hair these women would be anything BUT feminine. They would rather look like adolescent boys. Black hair can be very pretty, but to always see almost the exact same hair color? I love the range of hair colors in Nordic women.

Typical underdeveloped body of an Asian woman. Small hips and small breasts, small frame, androgynous face, and the strange yellowish-green hue often seen in Asians with fair complexion.

An Asian woman trying to look more white. Nose job and eye lid operations performed, most likely. These must be the two most common plastic surgery operations performed on Asian women and they are very popular.

Is it just by chance that you happened to pick extremely unattractive asian women?

Doesn't look androdgynous to me, a girl like that would make heads turn walking down the street.

She must make men vomit looking at her!

Emily, you are clearly a racist. The fact of the matter is beautiful women come from all over the world, in different shapes and sizes and while you try to state your opinions as though they are facts, unfortunately they are only OPINIONS. The asian women I posted do not have the hard angularity that some of the nordish faces you posted have, in fact they are soft and rounded. I can think of more occasions that a male friend has said he would love to bed an asian woman simply for the fact that they are petite, beautiful, and exotic. I myself am not asian but wouldn't mind looking like one of the more attractive ones.

White women are generally more feminine and attractive, look like ADULTS, and are less androgynous on average, than Asian women. Having a physical preference is not racist - it is personal taste, and it happens to be shared by most men.

By the way, round, flat faces without definition and character are not more feminine. That is a misconception. They look juvenile and underdeveloped - as if the maturity-process somehow stopped and the faces never really evolved into maturity. Femininity and underdevelopment are not the same thing. Very important to remember, unless men should be attracted to prepubescent girls. That is also exactly why Asian faces are not that appreciated by fashion designers. They are often flat, lack refined facial features, and are often strangely androgynous.

The point was that pictures of masculine Nordic fashion-models were used to make a false representation of the Nordic type. So I did the exact same thing when I posted pictures of extremely masculine, androgynous, round-faced and small-eyed Asian models. One extreme type equals another. That's how it is. The one choosing the bad pictures of Nordic models did the same thing and told us how ugly pure Nordics are, basically, yet we didn't see the racist card from you in that case. Gee, I wonder why?

By the way, the photos you chose don't in any way refute what I said. The first one looks like she's a prepubescent 12-year-old child. No breasts at all, totally underdeveloped body and yellowish-white skin without any life to it. Her facial features look disproportionate and she seems to have the mental capacity of a 7-year-old. Pedophile alert there, I would say.

The other one has ugly, short and fat legs and a flat "dollish", underdeveloped face with the same empty, idiotic expression. Her body does look more curvaceous thanks to the breast implants, but she is not a fair representation since most Asian women don't have that body-type at all. Most of them appeal to (Western) men who like adolescent girls - not adult women, since these women are often underdeveloped. Those men are also the sex tourists who flood Asia, naturally.

Attractive "Asian" women are often not 100% Asian. They are often mixed with whites, which makes them more attractive to Westerners.

Erika Sawajiri, Japanese model/actress. French/ Algerian mother.

11? No, 22.

Asians,

Asians often have very short legs, and short in proportion to the rest of the body.

Androgynous Asian men.

Androgynous Asian women.
There is little difference between males and females. Females are often not very feminine and males not very masculine. Their bodies often lack mature, adult "sexiness". To many Westerners they look underdeveloped, tiny and very alike.

Asian woman.

Japanese. Probably 100% ethnically Asian.

Pretty girls. Is the Asian girl the most feminine one? I think not, and surely not the most attractive. Even if she had been more feminine it's important to remember that attractiveness, and the strange, almost pre-adolescent femininity often seen in Asian women, are not always the same thing. Many Westerners find that kind of femininity somewhat distasteful - bringing to mind pedophilia.

Asians are well-known for their lack of buttocks. I don't even know if these are women but I think they are.

15? No, 26.

Many Asian women are not feminine at all. The attractive women we see in the media are often asian-white models.

Here we go again. Pictures of glamour models are NOT in any way representative for ordinary Asian women. They don't look like that. I could use only model pictures of Nordics but I did not. I posted many, many pictures of ordinary Swedes, Swdes you will readily see on the streets here, until someone started to trying to disprove me by posting photos of models.

You CANNOT use model pictures and say that that's what Asian women look like. The truth is that Asian women generally look like the ordinary women I showed you. So, you have to compare photos of ordinary women, or else I would have to start responding by showing only glamour model pictures of Nordics.

The truth is also that pure Nordics are often VERY beautiful, whereas pure Asians are NOT often that beautiful due to their round faces, HUGE noses, strange, small eyes, yellowish complexion and non'existing curves (no buttocks and breasts, and very short legs). That's why Asian- or even half-Asian model pictures are used as comparisons to ordinary Nordics. Give me a break.

I agree that Northern Europeans are more attractive, on average, than Asians... but if you think Asians have "HUGE noses" you're ignorant. Asians have the smallest nasal bones overall and don't have flared nasal apertures typically... which means they have narrow AND flat noses. Also many Asians do not have small eyes. There are many extremely good looking Asian people and judging from the amount of Asian fetishism in the western world I think a hell of a lot of Whites agree with that.

Well, you can define their noses in any way you like. Big or small, the fact remains that Asian noses are often unattractive to Westerners. They often have very broad noses with big nostrils and large, visible nose apertures. Saying they have "narrow" noses is intellectually dishonest since only the upper part is narrow and is followed by a very broad lower part.

It is mostly a matter of shape, I think. The shape of their noses make them strangely primitive and coarse.

I disagree when you say there are many extremely good looking Asians. Again, I'm not talking about models but ordinary people. They can sometimes have a cute, "doggish" face in a rather underdeveloped and flat kind of way, but their tiny and underdeveloped bodies often attract men who like adolescent girls rather than adult women. The sex industry in Asia cater to these men. Also, their eyes are almost always very unappealing to Westerners.

We see comparatively few of them in the media and in the entertainment industry here because people aren't attracted to them. I don't want to sound mean but sometimes the truth isn't very kind. Many Asians don't find whites appealing either, I suppose, so it goes both ways.

There are always exceptions. Since there are many, many Asians there will be those who look good also to Westerners, but more often than not these people will be of white/ asian mixture (often 50-50) - not 100% Asian.

Your repetitive posts seem to imply you are loosing sight of the ball,it is not the quantity of feminine women in a particular culture that is appreciated but the QUALITY of them just see how often erik changes his attractive womens section to appractiate this basic point. Although you can deem a particular type of nose shape or lip shape more desirable than another, it is ULTIMATELY the IMPRESSION that the OVERALL APPEARANCE leaves on the mind that is appreciated so with this in mind having a slightly malformed/hooked nose or any other feature does not necessirily detract from the overall attractivness, Erik labelled it as "appeal notwithstanding obvious, including serious, shortcomings" as in the example of Linda D with the malformed nose. It is not a fight against which culture has more feminine looking women than another, having more feminine women in a particular culture is beside the point it does not tell you anything about the quality of them. Femininity as Erik rightly says is the strongest correlate of beauty but is not the ONLY correlate i.e femininity is only part of the sum and not the WHOLE TOTAL of the sum, in the race for beauty everything counts hair,eye,skin colour,eye, nose shape etc.... and until we can OBJECTIVELY assess ALL these factore and come to a conclusion as to which are deemed more desirable we are only on the half way mark. Feminine women can be found in ALL cultures and is not EXCLUSIVELY a european trait. Certanly there are many feminine looking european women around but so what? why keep pointing it out? there are many feminine beauties outside of european culture too, theres no secret about it. Erik has established what femininity is. Why should we not compare the best looking feminine women from one culture to the best looking feminine women from another? Ordinary indivuals or galamour models does not change there physical apperance in any way unless they have had plastic surgery. How else do you expect to come to a conclusion about attractiveness? There is no point comparing masculine women with feminine women if your intention is to point out the feminine woman is more beautiful than the masculine women because erik has already established femininity as a strong correlate of beauty, your are merely going over old ground . You need to find the best looking feminine beauties from both cultures and as Erik says although you may not be able to objectively compare them on a fair basis you can certainly as Erik says find which one out of the two is deemed more attractive simply based on the judgement of a majority. So please cut down on your picture posting or send a link because its not making reading the site any easier.

"seem to imply you are loosing sight of the ball,it is not the quantity of feminine women in a particular culture that is appreciated but the QUALITY of them"

Really? Let's see.. England is well-known for its very attractive women. The English Rose can be absolutely beautiful. The problem is there are so few of them. A common complaint from men. They are very rare. When you visit a place in the hope of seeing beauty - whatever kind it may be - nature, architecture, arts, people..women..., you tend to go places where you stand a fair chance of experiencing and appreciating the things that interest you - not somewhere where you have to look long and hard. Sure, you might go to Denmark if you love lions. There is an animal park there that has some lions, but if you truly have a passion for them you would go to Africa, no?

Also, when it comes to quality, Nordic women are among the most beautiful on Earth. When it comes to quantity of them, well, take 500 people from the street in Stockholm and do the same thing in Hanoi or Tokyo, and you would see more very beautiful women within that random sample in Stockholm..and VERY beautiful ones at that. So, quality matters - and quantity does, as well. Pretending it doesn't is intellectually dishonest.

Those who have less beautiful women - and above all fewer of them - use your argument. To me it sounds more like desperation than anything else. It's like saying "we have a few very beautiful women here, but there are not that many of them, though. Island is another good example. There are few people, but an astounding amount of them are highly attractive - the very opposite of Asian countries where very few people are highly attractive, and the "quality" is low, on average, at least from the perspective of a Nordic.

This is of course my opinion, but I think it is shared by most Western men.

"Although you can deem a particular type of nose shape or lip shape more desirable than another, it is ULTIMATELY the IMPRESSION that the OVERALL APPEARANCE leaves on the mind that is appreciated so with this in mind having a slightly
malformed/hooked nose or any other feature does not necessirily detract from the overall attractivness,"

Of course it's the general impression of the overall appearance that matters. However, the general impression is dragged down by the many unattractive features these women possess. Sure, a very attractive woman who has a hooked nose is still very attractive, (unless that feature is so ugly that it totally destroys the impression) at least from some angles. However, a similarly attractive woman without that hooked nose would often be more attractive, since the hooked nose is a prominent feature that could distract and make the overall impression less favorable.

Also, I did address the "quality of femininity" in Asian women. That was THE very thing I was doing.

"Why should we not compare the best looking feminine women from one culture to the best looking feminine women from another?"

We could do that, as long as we are fair when we compare. Comparing half-asian glamour models to ordinary Nordics, or fashion-models to ordinary people, is not correct and does not give an honest picture. That was my point, which you would know if you had read what I wrote.

Also, comparing femininity doesn't favor Asian women since they are too underdeveloped and immature in their looks for Western taste. The very quality of femininity in Asian women was the thing I addressed in my comments here, and I think it is overrated, quite frankly. The more I looked at pictures of ordinary Asian women I found this to be true. Westerners are used to seeing pictures of (half)Asian models and they think that's what they look like. They don't..

True femininity is also linked to adulthood and to maturity. If you look like an adolescent kid when you are 26 it's not feminine - it's weird. That's why Western pedophiles flock to Asian countries. It is well-known that they look like young adolescent girls rather than adult women.

"How else do you expect to come to a conclusion about attractiveness?"

You don't compare models. You can always find very attractive models - and very masculine or feminine models - but they are not the people you will see when you visit a country. The live "impression" you will get - and the overall appearance of real people - is what you get when you see ordinary, "real" women of a country - not when you read a fashion magazine.

The quantity of attractive women a country has also matters in that you would feel utterly misled if you look at glamour pictures of Asian- and Indian models and go there thinking that's what they look like.

You wouldn't feel as fooled if you did the same with Nordic pictures since a LOT of people here look good in that way. Now, THAT'S What matters to men..darling.

The quantity of attractive women a country has also matters in that you would feel utterly misled if you look at glamour pictures of Asian- and Indian models and go there thinking that's what they look like.

Not that many people look at Indian women, there is no such thing as "brown" fever.
There are "Indiaphiles", but they are far outnumbered by the fans of East Asian looks.

I think these pictures could be of interest. The downside of "too much" femininity in a race is that Asian men generally don't look masculine compared to white men, for example. A common complaint from Asian men is that whereas white men are interested in Asian women, white women have little or no interest in Asian men.

The truth is that Asian men in general are not masculine enough. I have noticed that there is very little difference between the sexes, and that Asian men often look androgynous - or even feminine.

This Asian man wanted to look more masculine. The result is that he now looks like a white/asian mixture. He has had surgeries on virtually all parts of his face, apparently, including his forehead.

Although Emily hasn't responded to this discussion in about a month, yet, considering how revolting and extreme her comments are, I felt a need to comment.

Nobody, after going through the literature and reading this site long enough, would deny women with features shifted more towards a nordic look are considered more attractive, but the point of contention should be the idea of just how shifted towards nordic looks an innate standard of beauty would be. You seem to be of the opinion that anyone outside of this "nordic ideal" you worship is hideous.

Just look at your comments. You frequently refer to men attracted to asian women as "pedophiles".

"By the way, the photos you chose don't in any way refute what I said. The first one looks like she's a prepubescent 12-year-old child. No breasts at all, totally underdeveloped body and yellowish-white skin without any life to it. Her facial features look disproportionate and she seems to have the mental capacity of a 7-year-old. Pedophile alert there, I would say.

The other one has ugly, short and fat legs and a flat "dollish", underdeveloped face with the same empty, idiotic expression. Her body does look more curvaceous thanks to the breast implants, but she is not a fair representation since most Asian women don't have that body-type at all. Most of them appeal to (Western) men who like adolescent girls - not adult women, since these women are often underdeveloped. Those men are also the sex tourists who flood Asia, naturally."

You even try to assess their intellect via model photos. What the fuck is wrong with you? You even make an outright lie that the majority of east asian models so many western men are attracted to are mixed. Where the fuck do you get this from?

It should also be noted that the nordic body types you bespeak of can changely greatly from generation to generation, and unlike cranio-facial features are skin color, don't take thousands of years to change on their own and can't really be considered true ethnic features.

Either way, you provide almost shit evidence to support the idea of almost anything outside of your "nordic ideal" being so innately despised. All you do is pick numerous masculine looking asian models, dump photos of numerous average-looking swedish women, and dig up the most homely, ethnic looking asian women you can find. Besides, this discussion is largely about EAST ASIANS. And it's hilarious how you call east asian women's facial features "masculine"- regardless of their overall physical attractiveness in terms of facial features, it's BLINDINGLY apparent east asian women, on average, have much more gracile, softer facial bones than most other ethnic groups. That's simply tied to their low testosterone levels, which are universally correlated with facial femininity.

You even harp on about skin color, acting as if almost everyone despises any skin color that's not pale white among females. You even knock females who don't have blonde hair or green/blue eyes. Can you elitism?

Here's some asian women with typically east asian ethnic features- IE larger jaws and cheekbones, and relatively broader, larger noses. I don't think too many people would be turned off by these:

And here's something else, coming from this website- a survey of korean-americans and what sort of facial features they preffered. While they are shifted more towards northern european averages, they're clearly still very different from them, especially in the case of the nose, which is noticably larger, and much broader:

And, bare in mind this was just in average, from a people who are known to be extremely conformist and have very specific preferences for beauty.

The north american white woman average is on the left, the preffered korean is in the middle, and the average korean is on the right.

If it really were true that almost everything outside of your ridiculous "nordic ideal" was so innately despised, then so be it. But, I'm pretty sure that's quite wrong. If it were true, I would simply accept it, not embrace it like you do. Look at you. You flaunt this idea of a nordic ideal being preffered. You brag about it. You act like a little arrogant child about it.

You can abase yourself and insult me all you want to. This site deals with shallow issues such as beauty and physical appearance. So why are YOU here?

Femininity is not the same thing as arrested physical development, or women looking like pubescent girls. Sometimes the truth is not what you want to hear. It is still the truth. I am sick of the false information about Nordic women that I saw here in many threads. This bashing had been going on without ANYONE saying a thing, except Erik. Had I been negative towards Nordics you wouldn't have said a thing since my views then would have been in line with your preferred version of the truth.

Indians, blacks and Asians cannot get over the fact that the Nordic/Germanic white woman is the standard of beauty. How sad. I must be a terrible person for speaking the truth. Political correctness doesn't allow that, you see, while bashing of white women seems to be encouraged and is never criticized.

Asians are not most people's idea of beauty. With few exceptions they need to be mixed with whites in order to look truly attractive, as do Indians and blacks. A pure Nordic girl doesn't need black, Asian, Indian and slavic blood in order to enhance her appearance.

They need ours, apparently, or why else do they always show pictures of half-white models and actresses when they purport to show Asian, black and Indian beauty? Asians constantly remodel their faces in order to look less Asian, so what does that say about Asian beauty? An ideal face doesn't need a complete make-over in order to look like something it is not.

By the way, the girls you posted look like the ones pedophiles are attracted to, so I don't think they help your case in any way. The "little girl" stereotype is heavily underlined. I don't think women who look like they popped out from the womb in embryo form and never developed are feminine or attractive.

Emily wrote:"Indians, blacks and Asians cannot get over the fact that the Nordic/Germanic white woman is the standard of beauty"

You sound so desperate to convince us that we should have the same psychological preferences as you do, but you cannot force someone to believe in something they cannot feel. Just get over it and stop insulting people.

Personally, I find naturally tanned brunetes more attractive than plain Nordics. But I don't feel the urge to impose my preferences on others.

The facial structiure of thhese girls (see the link bellow), is much more attractive(in my opinion*), than the Nordic ladies posted above. Also, the guy on the photo is just perfect.http://www.imagebam.com/image/ce81b826836984

"You can abase yourself and insult me all you want to. This site deals with shallow issues such as beauty and physical appearance. So why are YOU here?"

Are you telling me this whole issue has no importance? And besides, why are you crying about being insulted when YOU'RE trashing virtually all non-nordics in existence?

"Femininity is not the same thing as arrested physical development, or women looking like pubescent girls. Sometimes the truth is not what you want to hear."

I know what femininity it is. And there you go comparing all east asian women posted here to "little girls". That must just be your own vitrolically biased, idiotic perceptions.

"It is still the truth."

If you had actually read a damn thing I said, I didn't deny women with facial features shifted towards a northern european average aren't universally desired. I just take qualms with your ridiculous assumption of almost ANYTHING outside of this mythical "nordic ideal" being lousy compared to it. That's exactly what you're doing.

"I am sick of the false information about Nordic women that I saw here in many threads."

And in my case, I'm sick of much of the false information spread about non-nordic women spread around here. You, though, seem to be going to an extremity by attacking the looks of virtually all non-nordic women.

"This bashing had been going on without ANYONE saying a thing, except Erik."

There's been plenty of nordic fetishists on this site.

"Had I been negative towards Nordics you wouldn't have said a thing since my views then would have been in line with your preferred version of the truth."

You assume too much. I'm against any of these idiotic ideals of racial beauty espoused in this kind of debate. You're just one type of extremist. For example, I've often seen people who go on about how poorly whites age compared to other races, attributing this almost entirely to their lower melanin levles, when this is due to innumerable other factors, such as facial fat loss rates etc. East asians have only slightly to moderately darker skin than nordics on average, yet they age almost as well as black africans.

"Indians, blacks and Asians cannot get over the fact that the Nordic/Germanic white woman is the standard of beauty."

Must be hard to get over something that doesn't exist. See, there's a difference between "shifted towards northern european norms" and "entirely within northern european norms". You're arguing for the insane former.

"How sad. I must be a terrible person for speaking the truth. Political correctness doesn't allow that, you see, while bashing of white women seems to be encouraged and is never criticized."

There's nothing wrong with speaking the truth. It just so happens you're full of shit. And you EMBRACE this idiocy. You act so hilariously arrogant, childish, snobbish and crude. You're despicable.

"Asians are not most people's idea of beauty. With few exceptions they need to be mixed with whites in order to look truly attractive, as do Indians and blacks."

Hahhaha, asians needing white admixture to look attractive? I've often heard people from your camp saying blacks need white admixture to look attractive, but never in the case of east asians. Where's your evidence for any of this bullshit?

"A pure Nordic girl doesn't need black, Asian, Indian and slavic blood in order to enhance her appearance."

Proof of this? I've provided concise anthropological evidence, from THIS VERY SITE, on how women considered attractive by koreans fall greatly outside of attractive white female averages. You just keep providing your own personal bial.

And you mention slavics as well? Slavs are pretty closely related to northern europeans. There's not much of a difference between the two physically either. You sure are one elitist little shit, aren't you?

"They need ours, apparently, or why else do they always show pictures of half-white models and actresses when they purport to show Asian, black and Indian beauty?"

"Asians constantly remodel their faces in order to look less Asian, so what does that say about Asian beauty? An ideal face doesn't need a complete make-over in order to look like something it is not."

And are these shifted so heavily within attractive northern european averages? Answer me. I've often seen people like you remark on the case of eyelid surgery among east asians, often ignoring how east asians barely had a preference, if any, for this prior to western contact, and how many east asians only have very partial eyelid surgeries overall.

"By the way, the girls you posted look like the ones pedophiles are attracted to, so I don't think they help your case in any way."

"Oooooh, only pedophiles would like girls like these!"

There you go again with your arrogant bullshit. Those women only had their faces showing, so pray tell, what looks so childish about them? I swear to god, I could probably throw as many attractive east asian women at you as possible, and you'd still be screaming they look like something a pedophile would go for.

"The "little girl" stereotype is heavily underlined. I don't think women who look like they popped out from the womb in embryo form and never developed are feminine or attractive."

Jesus christ. They look like babies to you? What would be a good-looking east asian woman to you, then? You're such a ridiculous asshole.

"In the beginning they look like this...

And that doesn't change much over time..."

I've already mentioned how testosterone differences account for much of the differences in femininity between whites and east asians. While having such low testosterone levels can cause a significant amount of population's women- and males as well- to look too pedomorhpic, this is a genetic trait that can change greatly over a period of a few generations, even within someone's life time, and thus can't be considered a true "racial average", such as the case of cranio-facial structure, skin color, hair color and structure, and eye color. It's pointless for you to mention this, as is the case of body proportions and other such physical differences.

Uh, yeah, and none of those nordic cheerleaders look attractive at all. At best, some of them are average- others are very homely, masculine, or have very asymmetrical facial features. While they're much alot better than those east asian cheerleaders, some whom look outright repulsive, those nordic cheerleaders aren't attractive either.

Remember, we've been talking about "ideals" the entire time here. You act as if the vast majority of nordic women fall within a racial ideal respective to their ethnic group. That's not even remotely true at all.

""You can abase yourself and insult me all you want to. This site deals with shallow issues such as beauty and physical appearance. So why are YOU here?""

"Are you telling me this whole issue has no importance? And besides, why are you crying about being insulted when YOU'RE trashing virtually all non-nordics in existence?"

No, I'm not telling you that. I'm telling you that the issues it deals with are by its very nature superficial. Flat out poster bashing is one thing, addressing the issues - beauty and femininity - is another. Try to understand the difference.

""Femininity is not the same thing as arrested physical development, or women looking like pubescent girls. Sometimes the truth is not what you want to hear.""

"I know what femininity it is. And there you go comparing all east asian women posted here to "little girls". That must just be your own vitrolically biased, idiotic perceptions."

No, it is what most Westerners see with their own eyes. The majority of people here don't like underdeveloped dwarfs with mongoloid traits, looking like pubescent girls when they are 25. Sorry but it is the truth. Asian women constantly emphasize the little girl look so I guess they don't mind the consequenses of that.

""It is still the truth.""

"..your ridiculous assumption of almost ANYTHING outside of this mythical "nordic ideal" being lousy compared to it. That's exactly what you're doing."

That's not my statement. Do not purport to speak for me. That's what they call a strawman, isn't it? To twist and distort the argument, making it something that is more easily refuted. Nice try. Spanish and Italian women can be very beautiful, for example.

""I am sick of the false information about Nordic women that I saw here in many threads.""

"And in my case, I'm sick of much of the false information spread about non-nordic women spread around here. You, though, seem to be going to an extremity by attacking the looks of virtually all non-nordic women."

What false information would that be? That Asian women generally look underdeveloped and that mongoloid features are not attractive to most people? LOL That is the truth. I'm not "attacking" all non-Nordic women, I describe the ones I find blatantly unattractive, and I also explain why.

Bashing Nordics will open the door for counter-arguments. If they can't take it they shouldn't bash Nordics, I guess. I see no reason not to state my opinion since everyone else here seems more than eager to do so. If it happens to go against your opinion, then that's too bad.

""Had I been negative towards Nordics you wouldn't have said a thing since my views then would have been in line with your preferred version of the truth.""

"You assume too much. I'm against any of these idiotic ideals of racial beauty espoused in this kind of debate."

This site deals with physical beauty and compares beauty so I suppose you could choose another site if the topic offends you. One could argue that you are usually against something because you fall short of the standard or don't measure up.

""Indians, blacks and Asians cannot get over the fact that the Nordic/Germanic white woman is the standard of beauty.""

"Must be hard to get over something that doesn't exist."

According to you it doesn't exist since you don't want it to.

""How sad. I must be a terrible person for speaking the truth. Political correctness doesn't allow that, you see, while bashing of white women seems to be encouraged and is never criticized.""

"There's nothing wrong with speaking the truth. It just so happens you're full of shit. And you EMBRACE this idiocy. You act so hilariously arrogant, childish, snobbish and crude. You're despicable."

Poster bashing when the arguments fail. Very impressive. I can tell the truth and still be the most terrible person on earth. It would still be the truth. Attacking the opponent never made anyone win an argument.

""Asians are not most people's idea of beauty. With few exceptions they need to be mixed with whites in order to look truly attractive, as do Indians and blacks.""

"Hahhaha, asians needing white admixture to look attractive? I've often heard people from your camp saying blacks need white admixture to look attractive, but never in the case of east asians. Where's your evidence for any of this bullshit?"

100% East Asians are often extremely unattractive to most Westerners. The mongoloid look is not attractive, it is disgusting and is in fact very much associated with a disease here. Thai and Vietnamese women for example can look good sometimes, East Asians..very rarely.

""A pure Nordic girl doesn't need black, Asian, Indian and slavic blood in order to enhance her appearance.""

"Proof of this? I've provided concise anthropological evidence, from THIS VERY SITE, on how women considered attractive by koreans fall greatly outside of attractive white female averages. You just keep providing your own "personal bial."

No, dear, I don't need proof when I say Nordics don't need admixture in order to look better. People know what I'm saying and the only one looking ridiculous is you. Regarding Koreans that is good news for their women. Tell them to stop their plastic surgery operations right away. LOL

"And you mention slavics as well? Slavs are pretty closely related to northern europeans. There's not much of a difference between the two physically either. You sure are one elitist little shit, aren't you?"

Slavic women are often too robust and have heavy facial features and a hooked nose. They benefit from Nordic blood, and the ones who look best are often those whose Slavic features are less prominent thanks to their Nordic genes.

Elitist, how so? Do I have to find Asians and Indians attractive and on the same level with white women in order not to be elitist?? What if I don't think that is the truth? Should I lie?

""They need ours, apparently, or why else do they always show pictures of half-white models and actresses when they purport to show Asian, black and Indian beauty?""

""Asians constantly remodel their faces in order to look less Asian, so what does that say about Asian beauty? An ideal face doesn't need a complete make-over in order to look like something it is not.""

And are these shifted so heavily within attractive northern european averages? Answer me. "

Not sure what you mean by that but Asians who have plastic surgery try to look like something they are not, namely more white and less Asian. Denying that is ridiculous. Go ahead, no one will believe you. Some of them will look Eurasian after surgery instead of pure Asian. Why is that if they adore their mongoloid features?

I have yet to see even one person who underwent surgery to look MORE Asian, black or Indian. The alterations made are always towards the Northern European/Nordic standard.

""By the way, the girls you posted look like the ones pedophiles are attracted to, so I don't think they help your case in any way.""

"There you go again with your arrogant bullshit. Those women only had their faces showing, so pray tell, what looks "

I think it's stupid to post photos of Asian women having the lolita look since it helps me prove my point. Their faces, to us, look like that of a 12-year-old when they are 25, and it's creepy. Understand? We are not Asians. We are not used to that and it freaks people out and turns on the pedophiles.

"I swear to god, I could probably throw as many attractive east asian women at you as possible, and you'd still be screaming they look like something a pedophile would go for."

Maybe they should try looking like adult women for a change, instead of catering to men who like the pre-pubescent/ pubescent girl look. That would help.

A Website with this content was bound to stir up hatred, so people, please do not be drawn in by it or suprised by your strong feelings towards another. Please see things for what they are. Why should we let people have such control that they can have us hating each other? There is a sense of self hatred and hatred of human life implicit in the ideas on this site. Why act upon it and speak of it as though it is true? Why allow it to get to us? There is room for everyone. everyone has a measure of beauty. We are all important and valuable. Everyone is loved by God. Sometimes people take their own points of view, i.e., the spurious intellectual theories disseminated on this website too seriously, so Emily and hffhgfgh, I pray you wont!

"No, I'm not telling you that. I'm telling you that the issues it deals with are by its very nature superficial. Flat out poster bashing is one thing, addressing the issues - beauty and femininity - is another. Try to understand the difference."
The topic of innate beauty standards IS an important topic because it concerns an issue with great social implication. I bash you because of how vitrolic you are. People like you deserve little respect.
"No, it is what most Westerners see with their own eyes. The majority of people here don't like underdeveloped dwarfs with mongoloid traits, looking like pubescent girls when they are 25. Sorry but it is the truth. Asian women constantly emphasize the little girl look so I guess they don't mind the consequenses of that."
Emily, YOU are the only one in this discussion who has been calling ALL examples of attractive east asian women here to look like "little girls", "barely changed out of the womb", "underdeveloped dwarves" etc. I would love for you to show the east asian women posted here to people other than yourself and see if they're as disgusted by them as you are.
"That's not my statement. Do not purport to speak for me. That's what they call a strawman, isn't it? To twist and distort the argument, making it something that is more easily refuted. Nice try. Spanish and Italian women can be very beautiful, for example."
You haven't stated it directly, but the way you act damn well implies it. Besides, you citing spanish and italian women does nothing to curtail your extreme biases, considering there's little physical differences between northern and southern europeans overall. That's why I said "barely anything".
"What false information would that be? That Asian women generally look underdeveloped and that mongoloid features are not attractive to most people? LOL That is the truth."
Again, if you ACTUALLY payed attention to my arguments, I already know that many east asian women look under-developed due to their lower testosterone levels, but this is not a major point of contention compared to cranio-facial features and skin color, since testosterone isn't a true "ethnic trait"- it can change greatly over a period of a few generations within a population, even in an individual's lifetime. I also know that extreme ethnic features of virtually all ethnic groups are considered unattractive as well- I'm simply arguing agains your insane idea of how almost anything outside attractive nordic features are reviled.
" I'm not "attacking" all non-Nordic women, I describe the ones I find blatantly unattractive, and I also explain why."
You frequently call most non-nordic women unattractive and ugly, and that this an innate preference. Is that not an attack?
"Bashing Nordics will open the door for counter-arguments. If they can't take it they shouldn't bash Nordics, I guess. I see no reason not to state my opinion since everyone else here seems more than eager to do so. If it happens to go against your opinion, then that's too bad."
So you fight extremism with more extremism?
"This site deals with physical beauty and compares beauty so I suppose you could choose another site if the topic offends you. One could argue that you are usually against something because you fall short of the standard or don't measure up."
This site isn't arguing in favor of a glorious "nordic ideal". I already showed you anthropological studies from THIS SITE showing how attractive korean women still fall greatly outside of the american white female average. If you want to see more, here's an example of their nostrils: http://www.femininebeauty.info/images/korean.7.jpg
The shift towards european features in this regard is minute. In fact, most people probably wouldn't notice it at a first.
Admittedly, I misinterpreted this same data piece to be using examples of "attractive" american white women- they're just "average" in this study. The american white woman depicted looks quite attractive from a general artistic standpoint, but then again, these illustrations aren't the best examples of what these people would really look like.
My point still stands on how this site greatly contradicts you.
"According to you it doesn't exist since you don't want it to."
You and I obviously have our own personal reservations, but I'm obviously more motivated by actual empiricism because I'm- *gasp* providing more evidence than you!
"Poster bashing when the arguments fail. Very impressive. I can tell the truth and still be the most terrible person on earth. It would still be the truth. Attacking the opponent never made anyone win an argument."
You really have a reading problem, don't you? I said there's nothing wrong with the truth. It's just your attitude that's the problem, and your piss-poor evidence.
"100% East Asians are often extremely unattractive to most Westerners."
And you have cites on this?
"The mongoloid look is not attractive, it is disgusting and is in fact very much associated with a disease here."
Wow, wonderful choice of words you have here. Asian features are "disgusting" and look "diseased". That's the same attitude nazi psychologists had when they pushed off the idea of mentally retarded whites having asian admixture. I'm not calling you a nazi, but it's interesting how much your attitudes align with such an archaic and dejected outlook.
"Thai and Vietnamese women for example can look good sometimes, East Asians..very rarely."
In my personal opinion, thai women are generally unattractive. Vietnamese women have significant chinese admixture and look more east asian than other southeast asians. I'm amazed you'd say east asians are less attractive than them. That attractive ones are a "rarity". So is this something you know as a fact among population preferences, or more of your own bullshit opinions?
"No, dear, I don't need proof when I say Nordics don't need admixture in order to look better. "
So an unattractive nordic female wouldn't look better with admixture from an attractive non-nordic female?
"Regarding Koreans that is good news for their women. Tell them to stop their plastic surgery operations right away. LOL"
This is your response to actual antropometric measures? Goddamn, you are dense. Really, really dense. Or just in denial.
"Slavic women are often too robust and have heavy facial features and a hooked nose. They benefit from Nordic blood, and the ones who look best are often those whose Slavic features are less prominent thanks to their Nordic genes."
I've never heard of this idea of slavic women having more hooked nose extremities than nordic women. Besides, overall facial robustness- IE, the size of the facial bones- has absolutely NOTHING to do with overall femininity.
"Elitist, how so? Do I have to find Asians and Indians attractive and on the same level with white women in order not to be elitist?? What if I don't think that is the truth? Should I lie?"
I call you elitist because you even attack the looks of ethnic groups who are extremely close to nordics genetically.
"Not sure what you mean by that but Asians who have plastic surgery try to look like something they are not, namely more white and less Asian. Denying that is ridiculous. Go ahead, no one will believe you. Some of them will look Eurasian after surgery instead of pure Asian. Why is that if they adore their mongoloid features?"
You're not sure. Try re-reading that again. I have NEVER, EVER denied the idea of attractive women of any race being shifted more towards attractive northern european norms. You act as if they have to be HEAVILY shifted towards attractive northern european norms to be considered attractive.
"I think it's stupid to post photos of Asian women having the lolita look since it helps me prove my point. Their faces, to us, look like that of a 12-year-old when they are 25, and it's creepy. Understand? We are not Asians. We are not used to that and it freaks people out and turns on the pedophiles."
There. You. Go. Again. All attractive east asian women posted here look like "children" to you, even if it's just their faces. Something "pedophiles" would go for. That's just your own extreme biases coming into play.
"Maybe they should try looking like adult women for a change, instead of catering to men who like the pre-pubescent/ pubescent girl look. That would help."
I guess showing you attractive east asian women is futile. They all look like little girls to you.

And many times they become even more beautiful mixed with Asians. I agree, I see more attractive Spanish or Italians than I do plain Nordics. Probably because Spanish and Italians resemble Nordics, but do not have the washed out features.

Here is: Ellen Adarna
She is a Spanish-Chinese-Filipina mix!

Does she look more white to you or Asian?

A: Asian

Does her Caucasian side add to her attractiveness:

A: No doubt!

Do her Asian features add to her attractiveness?

A: No doubt!

Can an 100% Nordic or Med or any white girl benefit from whatever she got Asian wise?

A: No doubt!

Can Asian women benefit from what she got from her Caucasian side?

A: No doubt!

Do you want a beautiful Indian woman?

Sanchita Chowdhury from Slumdog Millionaire
There are many attractive Indians in that movie. Some unattractive, yes. But many attractive!

NOT ADULT WOMEN but adolescent girls, I hope..to ones you showed here. Unfinished faces, mongoloid traits remaining, but higher nose ridge, white skin lacking life to it, instead with the greenish-yellow snakebelly color often seen. It lacks the translucency of the skin of whites. Hard eyes with the same color as usual, and the awful mongoloid shape. I'm sorry but it is not flattering to any face.

The black eye color, the mongoloid eye form and the flat nose is VERY often passed down to whites when you race mix. It destroys the white race and improves the Asian race at our expence. White genes are recessive and the dominant Asian genes will almost never entirely go away once introduced.

This is what your child with an Asian woman or man might look like if you are white;

Instead of this;

The ONLY way true Nordics can get these mongoloid traits WITHOUT the Asian admixture is by having a child with the serious disease called Down Syndrome.

Is that not strange? Isn't that odd?

The arrested, ball-like and unfinished face shape we see in Asians shows up in white people with this illness. To me it's an indication that many Asians indeed ARE unfinished and underdeveloped. They never mature into adulthood physically, except for being able to reproduce. They often remain childlike, with round, puffy, too large and broad heads (with poor profile development) in comparison to their bodies. They often have childlike figures and very short, tiny bodies their entire life.

White girl with Down Syndrome. What do her facial traits remind you of?

I'm not talking about HALF-ASIANS that Asians LOVE to post pictures of - FALSELY presenting them as Asians - I am talking about 100% Asians. The mongoloid in pure form - undiluted - without the borrowed feathers of white genes, or the plastic surgery magic that models and actresses there almost always use.

Nordics don't need Asians. Asians need Nordics to improve their looks. The proof lies in the fact that they always show photos of Asians mixed with whites. On their own they cannot compete unless they have operations (see picture above).

This actually doesn't matter to me. BUT, many non-whites seem to be awfully keen on promoting race mixing, ignoring what it does to the white race.

They want our genes to improve THEIR looks, since they don't like their mongoloid traits any more than you do, destrying our looks and, more importantly, our racial identity in the process. And THAT does matter.

It destroys a race that has recessive genes, and by that definiton, it is genocide.

Also, what you call washed out colors happen to be what most men dream of, including yours,....honey blonde hair, the color of the sun..eyes that are bright and sky blue, sea green, or gray like the clouds over a stormy sea. This is just envy rearing its ugly head. Most women of other races never have these colors and they are so full of envy that they don't even realize how transparent they are.

Also, something about Spanish and Italian women. If you for one second believe that that mixed race "woman" compares to a good-looking 100% Italian or Spanish woman who actually will look like an adult first of all, you live in a world far removed from anyone else. LOL LOL and LOL

You really want to promote race mixing, and the promotion failed miserably. You just cannot stand your own Asian mongoloid looks, can you? Well, we whites don't want it either so keep it, please.

The fact remains, who on earth wants to look like Asian mongoloids if they can help it? No wonder they want to race mix with us.

Actually, I'm sick and tired of the fake race mixing propaganda you people spew out, showing half-asian models who have had tons of plastic surgeries. What does that prove? Those people in no way whatsoever represent REAL, ordinary people of mixed race.

That is NOT what they look like. Most look like hell, actually, like the two REAL pictures of Asian/white mixed persons that I showed here. I'll find more of these pictures, more real people of mixed race, instead of the misleading propaganda pictures of models and actresses we are constantly presented with, unless it stops.

Emily,
"Also, what you call washed out colors happen to be what most men dream of, including yours,....honey blonde hair, the color of the sun..eyes that are bright and sky blue, sea green, or gray like the clouds over a stormy sea."

Who are you kidding!? I can show you tons of pics of Indians with real light eyes
So by your "definitions" these women/girls should be pretty?

Good enough? I can post many many more....Indians can also have eyes of different colors although majority have brown.

Emily,
"Also, what you call washed out colors happen to be what most men dream of, including yours,....honey blonde hair, the color of the sun..eyes that are bright and sky blue, sea green, or gray like the clouds over a stormy sea."

Who are you kidding!? I can show you tons of pics of Indians with real light eyes
So by your "definitions" these women/girls should be pretty?

Good enough? I can post many many more....Indians can also have eyes of different colors although majority have brown.

Men LOVE pure Nordic women and come here from all over the world in order to see the famous Nordic women. Women in Stockholm, for example, are often "extremely white", as you put it, and many men regard these women to be the most beautiful on earth.

Some of these people cannot accept facts, and that is their problem. They get too caught up in the race issue and blindly revert to ad hominem when in fact you are presenting evidence that happens to go against what they want to believe.

Thanks for remaining so persistent in this issue.
I was beginning to doubt the fortitude of white people.

Maybe if it was Black or Asian people who conquered most of the world and held power in different places for hundreds of years, economically and militarily, we would all be having discussions about whether people's features contained elements typically linked with being "black" or whether our skin was dark enough.

I see Emily has now gone off screaming about the "evils" of race mixing and how it promotes a "genocide" against whites. Nice to see your true colors. Looks like you're just some white nationalist scumbag.

"Sorry, I'm not going to waste my time going through that entire post, much less answer it."

WONDERFUL! I put out an actual response, and you ignore it. Nice intellectual honesty on your part, prick.

Listen you arrogant idiot.. I have said TIME AND TIME AGAIN how it is POINTLESS to focus on the extreme neotinic traits of many east asians, as these are tied almost ENTIRELY to testosterone differences, which are a TRANSIENT racial feature.

"Unfinished faces, mongoloid traits remaining, but higher nose ridge, white skin lacking life to it, instead with the greenish-yellow snakebelly color often seen. It lacks the translucency of the skin of whites. Hard eyes with the same color as usual, and the awful mongoloid shape. I'm sorry but it is not flattering to any face."

This is just YOUR opinion, as usual. Besides, I find it funny how you claim her skin lacks "life" to it, under your revoltingly elitist paradigram of nordic white skin being the ideal, when you can so BLATANTLY see she's blushing in her first picture. Besides, how can you argue the extreme nordic skin is intrinsically better than this? Many people would be put off by pale, snow-white, skin among nordics. To many, it reminds them of that of a corpse, that of a leper, that of bone, that of the diseased. I do not believe there is any intrinsic preference for any natural skin color among humans, but that is what many people can associate nordic skin with.

"The black eye color, the mongoloid eye form and the flat nose is VERY often passed down to whites when you race mix. It destroys the white race and improves the Asian race at our expence. White genes are recessive and the dominant Asian genes will almost never entirely go away once introduced."

Nobody naturally has black eyes, you fool. Many, many whites have brown or dark eyes, moreso than they do green, blue, or multicolored eyes. Are they a threat to the white race in this case?

"This is what your child with an Asian woman or man might look like if you are white;"

If an ugly white and asian mixed, then yeah. Nice to pull out the worst examples possible for yourself.

"The ONLY way true Nordics can get these mongoloid traits WITHOUT the Asian admixture is by having a child with the serious disease called Down Syndrome.

Is that not strange? Isn't that odd?"

There many finns with asiatic traits, like epicanthic folds, due to the extreme winter climates they evolved in.

"The arrested, ball-like and unfinished face shape we see in Asians shows up in white people with this illness. To me it's an indication that many Asians indeed ARE unfinished and underdeveloped."

Whites with down syndrome only superficially resemble asian facial features. Their eyelids are often deformed, droopy, wrinkled, and assymetrical, and their flattened facial profiles are as well. There are many physical deformities and genetic defects that can indicate racial traits from another ethnic group. Consider albinism. Whenever that pops up in a non-white ethnic group, what sort of racial trait does that recall? The white skin of northern europeans. Along with the blonde hair and blue eyes. And it seems as though that the darker the natural skin color of one who's afflicted with albinism is, the darker their albino skin is, along with their hair and eye color.

Consider this albino white man, who's skin is completely devoid of any coloration, and his hair is that of the elderly:

Their skin color is identical. Many people who've disparaged racial traits of whites call upon albinism. Look at the writings of black supremacists and black nationalists especially. They frequently believe the idea of whites being a sort of mutated albino race. Albinism is most common among africans, in fact. Albinos are universally despised among africans, despite having pretty much the same typical skin color as europeans. Do you know how albinos are treated in africa? They're often considered diseased. Cursed. Monsters. They're frequently the victims of discrimination, violence, even forms of cannibalism, as seen in tanzania, where albino body parts are being trafficed for use in local medicines.

They sure don't seem to like this nordic ideal you screech about.

White features superficially resemble albino ones, but do I go around thinking whites look like albinos, despite being white myself? No. And consider leprosy- that often frequently depigments the skin of people to the point of being white, yet do I go around thinking white people resemble lepers? No. I doubt many others do as well, outside of a superficial aspect. Nor would this typically attack their attraction to white features, and vice versa.

I don't go around thinking all the asians I see look like people with down syndrome. That association rarely enters my mind. Maybe thats just your problem.

"They never mature into adulthood physically, except for being able to reproduce."

YES EMILY. THERE ARE NO ASIANS WITH NON-PEDOMORPHIC TRAITS. ALL OF THEM ARE TESOSTERONE DEFICIENT.

"They often remain childlike, with round, puffy,"

You're focusing on a transient trait, once again.

" too large and broad heads (with poor profile development) in comparison to their bodies."

Goddamn, your arrogance is amazing. Robustness has NOTHING to do with pedomorphism. The more testosterone one has, the more enlarged their facial features will be.

"I'm not talking about HALF-ASIANS that Asians LOVE to post pictures of - FALSELY presenting them as Asians - I am talking about 100% Asians."

There you go again. WHERE THE FUCK IS YOUR EVIDENCE THAT SO MANY OF THE ASIANS POSTED SO FAR ARE MIXED? MANY of them are from, and live in, ASIAN COUNTRIES, which are VERY HOMOGENOUS. WHERE would all the mixes be coming from? You're a goddamn liar.

"The mongoloid in pure form - undiluted - without the borrowed feathers of white genes, or the plastic surgery magic that models and actresses there almost always use."

You bespeak of extreme racial traits. Are you saying there are NO extreme cranio-facial traits among nordics that are frequently disliked by many other ethnic groups? A previous poster mentioned quite a few, posting a nordic woman who looked like a barbie doll, without any plastic surgery, with facial features seldom seen in any other ethnic group typically, that was very unappealing. Your response to him was hilariously half-assed.

Your arrogance is fucking astounding. I'm amazed you can still continue in this discussion.

"They want our genes to improve THEIR looks, since they don't like their mongoloid traits any more than you do, destrying our looks and, more importantly, our racial identity in the process. And THAT does matter.

It destroys a race that has recessive genes, and by that definiton, it is genocide.

Do not contribute to it, please."

Oh my god. GENOCIDE. When a white person breeds with an asian, that's equivalent to murder? Don't you belong on stormfront or majorityrights, you lunatic?

"Also, what you call washed out colors happen to be what most men dream of, including yours,....honey blonde hair, the color of the sun..eyes that are bright and sky blue, sea green, or gray like the clouds over a stormy sea. This is just envy rearing its ugly head. Most women of other races never have these colors and they are so full of envy that they don't even realize how transparent they are."

Yeah, and many, many whites have black and brown hair, and brown eyes, moreso than ones with blonde hair or other colors. How do they factor into this? Are they a detriment to that wonderous nordic ideal?

"Washed out? Yes, in your dreams! If an Asian man could have any one of these girls he would drop any half-Asian or half whatever like a hot potato....unfortunately."

I'm sure you've been able to interview the hundreds of millions of asian men in the world on this, and how they'd go for these generally bland nordic women over anyone else, right?

"Also, something about Spanish and Italian women. If you for one second believe that that mixed race "woman" compares to a good-looking 100% Italian or Spanish woman who actually will look like an adult first of all, you live in a world far removed from anyone else. LOL LOL and LOL"

I happen to think that women is pretty attractive. Oh, what's wrong with me? Maybe there's alot dissent to your deranged ideals of beauty? Get the fuck out.

"Actually, I'm sick and tired of the fake race mixing propaganda you people spew out, showing half-asian models who have had tons of plastic surgeries. What does that prove? Those people in no way whatsoever represent REAL, ordinary people of mixed race.

That is NOT what they look like. Most look like hell, actually, like the two REAL pictures of Asian/white mixed persons that I showed here. I'll find more of these pictures, more real people of mixed race, instead of the misleading propaganda pictures of models and actresses we are constantly presented with, unless it stops."

You go Emily. You go girl. You go and show how all attractive east asian models posted here, or anywhere else, have white admixture, despite coming from asian countries. Do the impossible!

By the way, I'm surprised you haven't been arguing about the beauty of white males. Wanna know why that'd be an even greater excercise in futility than this? Because pedomorphic traits and derived traits apply much less for males than they do for females, along with innate beauty standards for males being vastly broader. Maybe you're intellectualy honest enough to not see the insanity in that.

Emily, black eyes do not exist. So far, you have presented only ignorance. Maybe because you are not content with yourself and that is why you are jealous of other women. Just accept the fact that there are many desirable non-nordic women on this planet and your men loves to mate with them. Now you need to take some time to chill out and stop being arrogant and self centered.

Nice troll comment. There are those who have eyes that are so dark that they appear black. Technically they may not be but visually they are, and that is why I called them black, since that's what they LOOK like.

No, men here don't "love" to mate with inferior-looking, underdeveloped, mongoloid Asian women. A few have to take what they can get when no Nordic women are available to them. If you have seen the men here who import these women, you would understand that they obviously have problems competing with other men who are socially, financially or physically more attractive men. In other words, they don't choose non-Nordic women unless they have to, and when they do it is a last resort when they have tried and failed with their own women.

I imagine the situation to be very similar in the US, for example, where men sometimes have to import women from Asia or Eastern europe since they can't sustain a relationship with one of their own kind..

Asians have to be content with the scraps of our dating table. There are always exceptions but generally that is the case. I'm not saying this to be mean but since some here try to paint a false picture they need to be corrected.

Boris Becker, David Beckham, David Bowie, Robert De Niro, Michael Douglas etc.(the list is too long!) are all very rich and powerful men, but they chose to be with non-nordic women. Do understand how your theory is blown-up?

It's good you finally realized that there are no black eyes. Keep it up!

That's perfectly fine with me. In fact, it works towards my benefit. You ignoring my detailed responses shows you for what you really are- a desperate, lying, shallow asshole who can't stand on their own.

"and those who have to resort to name calling and foul language are not worthy of anyone's time."

Ad hominems destroy any merit one's argument has. Perfect reasoning.

"Nice troll comment. There are those who have eyes that are so dark that they appear black. Technically they may not be but visually they are, and that is why I called them black, since that's what they LOOK like.

Technically there are no black eyes. Everyone knows that, honey. However, eyes that look black unless you expose them to a 500w halogen bulb are black to me."

Yeah, they don't. I agree. Then again, why are you focusing on asian women with a TRANSIENT racial trait? TESTOSTERONE CAN CHANGE GREATLY THROUGHOUT A LIFETIME, OR A FEW GENERATIONS AMONG A POPULATION. I've said this TIME and TIME again. You are so unbelievably DENSE.

"A few have to take what they can get when no Nordic women are available to them. If you have seen the men here who import these women, you would understand that they obviously have problems competing with other men who are socially, financially or physically more attractive men. In other words, they don't choose non-Nordic women unless they have to, and when they do it is a last resort when they have tried and failed with their own women."

Wow Emily, you've just diagnosed the psychology of millions of white women out there who like asian women. It's because they CAN'T GET good looking nordic women, who are a universal.

"I imagine the situation to be very similar in the US, for example, where men sometimes have to import women from Asia or Eastern europe since they can't sustain a relationship with one of their own kind.."

There you go knocking slavs again. The physical and genetic differences between the two groups are MINUTE. Why are so you revoltingly elitist?

"Asians have to be content with the scraps of our dating table. There are always exceptions but generally that is the case. I'm not saying this to be mean but since some here try to paint a false picture they need to be corrected."

You're not saying this to be mean, yet you constantly dance around the idea of it, and turn it into a racial political issue. When will you stop being so full of BS?

By the way, why haven't you gotten back to me on your sick lie about all of the attractive east asian women from east asian countries being mixes?

(1)
If you don't like to have kids with someone because of his/her looks, then don't. If you want to get people off of your back for thinking someone is too ugly for you, then you must do something other than hiding behind all this objective beauty and population genetics arguments, which aren't tenable and aren't relevant anyway. Ugly people have it bad all the time, whether getting help or looking for jobs; I doubt it would be as difficult for you to speak your mind.

(2)
No genes or phenotypes "belong" to any "race", and no one should be suggesting any evolutionary relations simply because of what happens when White males marry non-White females nowadays. The race concept is merely the co-occurence of certain features among people living in certain places. It doesn't exist beyond identifying a subset of people in a subset of regions in the world. Refer to point (1) and think of a White yet ugly person. No one, including Erik (this site IS about feminine beauty and not race right?), should have even brought up race and/or ethnicity.

(3)
You can communicate what you think (eg regarding the high-fashion industry), what you do (eg regarding choice of mate), without generalizing, even a little, about people. Because now they have to deal with not only being ugly, but also being whatever race and/or ethnicity, meaning you have made it worse for them.

(4)
Otherwise, for those of you who don't feel comfortable reading the rest of this site, feel free not to. If dating etc. definitely sucks for you because of your looks, then don't do it. If people were to blame it on your character, then make things clear for them (see part (1)--people like Emily would definitely help in this regard). I think that some sections here pointing out what affects beauty, at least in Erik's view, can be informative; just that all the unnecessary, untenable stuff should be removed.

"You can communicate what you think (eg regarding the high-fashion industry), what you do (eg regarding choice of mate), without generalizing, even a little, about people. Because now they have to deal with not only being ugly, but also being whatever race and/or ethnicity, meaning you have made it worse for them."

Just to clarify, there is nothing wrong with one's race and/or ethnicity. What I meant was that you shouldn't merge it with attractiveness, and that you shouldn't generalize. When I wrote my earlier post, I was half asleep hehe, so I'm now just making sure that no one misconstrues it.

Sure, it's probably true that some of these guys are losers and can't "find women" in real life, but then again I've seen many white (loser) men with fat and ugly white (loser) women, and these guys are no different.

Truth is, sometimes you can fall in love with someone of a different race. DUH!! I am a female of white background and I've fallen for men of Asian background before. I like exotic features, and some men also like exotic features in women.

He did NOT say that Aishwarya Rai was unattractive, ugly or in need of a nose job. All he said was Aishwarya Rai has a hook nose which is clearly evident from her side portfolio. Personally i feel when Aishwarya smiles showing her teeth, her hook nose becomes evident.

She does have a hook nose, just like other celebrities like Paris Hilton. Aishwarya rai has a really small hook nose, which makes her face look cute. However the majority of south indians/Sri Lankans with hook noses have large or long hooks, which are unattractive and this is the reason that many South Asians undertake nose jobs, to create a petite small nose.

He is not using Aishwarya as an example of a bad nose, he is merely pointing out the reason why many undertake rhinoplasty/nose jobs in India.

Racism is soooo 1900's! Your clearly an uneducated red-neck, who has nothing better to do then come on a website for "Nose Jobs" that feature "Ethnic Women" and then try an insult. Your truly retarded. You said "If eyes look black then they are black to me", your probably one of those idiots who thought Earth was flat and Jesus was caucasian.

Why don't you go back to your trailer and hurl abuses that nobody cares about?

I find it hard to believe your even a white person. I feel ashamed to even know a person like you exists. Don't worry, for all your racism, one day you will be born again, and you will most probably be born a black/ASIAN/african person who gets tortured for all the disastrous things you've done and said in this life. If not, it will come back to you a lot sooner in this life in another form and you will pay.

re Deepika:
I am a white American, and I far prefer Aishwarya to Deepika. Deepika is beautiful, but she just looks like a white chick with a tan. Aishwarya has a unique, exotic look and you can tell in her photos that she has presence. Deepika doesn't come across as having any more personality than the average woman.

your photos,
You keep using the same photos of beautiful Nordic women and unattractive Asian girls in thread after thread. It doesn't do wonders for your arguments.

"instead with the greenish-yellow snakebelly color often seen. It lacks the translucency of the skin of whites."

A darker complexion is one reason that Asian and Southern European women age much better than Nordics. Compare a 50 year old Japanese woman and a 50 year old Swedish woman and the Japanese woman will have fewer wrinkles and is likely to be slimmer. You say that Asian men would instantly snap up a Nordic woman if he could, but my Asian friends have told me that many Asian men believe that white women age faster and don't keep up their appearance after the first bloom of youth. And that they're likelier to be overweight.

"BUT, many non-whites seem to be awfully keen on promoting race mixing, ignoring what it does to the white race."

Here in America Asians and blacks are much likelier to object to interracial mating than white liberals. And since American liberals get a lot of their tiresome ideas from Sweden I seriously doubt white nationalists abound there. In fact Denmark and Finland have elected leaders that are far more hard-nosed about immigration and multiculturalism than Sweden.

Androgynous Asian men,
Swedish men are well-known for being more obsessed with their personal appearance than other European men to the point of being like women(see below). Sounds pretty androgynous to me. A Finnish man once told me that in Finland they say all Swedish men are gay (see yahoo link and scroll down). According to this poll (see below) Swedish men are almost the worst lovers in the world (second only to the Germans). Granted Americans are fourth but I never claimed that Americans were world leaders in beauty and sex appeal. One of the tacit aims of this website is to promote Nordics as the most feminine of women and the most masculine of men. But the reality is that among Swedes, at least, the women tend to be radical feminists and the men tend to be effeminate fops compared to Italians, Koreans and even the British. There's more to femininity and masculinity than looks.

"A darker complexion is one reason that Asian and Southern European women age much better than Nordics."

I have lived in Italy and I can personally testify to that being not true at all. On the contrary, the impression I had was that Southern European women look much more coarse and "little old lady" like much more frequently and earlier than Nordic women do. Since they are shorter and shubbier to begin with they tend to lose any girly looks quickly and can look matronly and very coarse early on.

Asian women do tend to look young longer than other women do, so I think that's a fair statement.

"Swedish men are well-known for being more obsessed with their personal appearance than other European men to the point of being like women"

I've never heard that ridiculous statement before. Since I'm Swedish I can say that it's not true. Ethnic Swedes aren't vain. They keep clean but they don't stay all day in front of a mirror. Italian men, on the other hand, are well-known for their vanity, so that would be a better example

I guess many who write here are Americans and therefore sometimes ill-informed about Europeans in general, both when it comes to looks and in regards to other matters.

"Since they are shorter and shubbier to begin with they tend to lose any girly looks quickly and can look matronly and very coarse early on."

Short women do tend to look older if they gain weight, but if they can keep the weight off they age much better. I've known many Italian women who kept their weight low and often looked ten years younger than their age. Slender black women also age extremely well. A translucent complexion, on the other hand, shows lines, discolorations, and wrinkles much earlier especially if they love outdoor sports. Not so bad if you can afford plastic surgery but most can't.

"I've never heard that ridiculous statement before. Since I'm Swedish I can say that it's not true. Ethnic Swedes aren't vain. They keep clean but they don't stay all day in front of a mirror. Italian men, on the other hand, are well-known for their vanity, so that would be a better example"

I agree with you about Italian men but they are also extremely bold about approaching women (far bolder than Americans or Brits) and that type of swagger is a very masculine trait. According to what I've read Swedish men are known for being very reluctant to make the first move (when sober). Now assuming there's truth in this it obviously wouldn't apply to every individual. Foreigners sometimes see a society far more clearly than do it's native inhabitants (see Alexis de Toqueville's insights about America). But I'll concede that I don't have experience with Swedish men so I'll remain agnostic on the subject.

FIRSTLY, YOU SAY THAT WHITE MEN THAT SLEEP WITH ASIAN WOMEN ARE LOSERS, SO I ASSUME YOUR TALKIN ABOUT THE "MINORITY" OF WHITE MEN WHO ARE APPARENTLY INCAPABLE OF SOCIAL INTERACTION AND COMPETING WITH OTHER MEN.

BUT THEN YOU GO ON THIS DEVIL RANT THAT ASIAN WOMEN ARE THE REASON YOUR RACE IS DYING??

AS A MAN, I PERSONALLY FIND EUROPEAN, WHITE, ASIANS AND INDIANS BEAUTIFUL. ALL FROM DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS AND ALL GORGEOUS IN THEIR OWN RIGHT. NOT ALL WHITES ARE PHYSICALLY ATTRACTIVE AND NOT ALL ASIANS ARE EITHER. EVERYONE, NO MATTER WHAT RACE HAS AN INDIVIDUAL APPEAL.

WHITE PEOPLE AREN'T GOING INTO EXTINCTION SO I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOUR CRYING ABOUT. THERE IS MORE THEN ONE RACE IN THE WORLD, AND WHITE PEOPLE WERE NOT THE FIRST RACE ON EARTH. I ACTUALLY THINK THAT YOU WANT TO LOOK LIKE ONE OF THOSE NORDIC GIRLS YOU POSTED, BUT SADLY YOUR PROBABLY MIDDLE-AGED, FAT, WITH A PIG NOSE AND HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO FRIENDS, THATS WHY YOU SPEND YOUR TIME ONLINE.

Here are a few more politically incorrect facts.
(1) The Europeans/ Northern Europeans (Sweden)who date non european women/men (asians in particular) are termed labelled as rejects/loosers/lower class etc... by this Emily character and her ethnic group/Europeans But these people are percieved as loosers/rejects etc...from a western perspective through western perception and a closer examination of western culture can easily give you the answer why. It is the western culture who reject them and not the non western culture it is the western culture/values/thoughts/principles/way of life/expectations etc.... which are so harsh in its conduct and treatment of its subjects that it is inevitable there are going to be europeans who are not able to match/fulfill the cultures/peoples expections. It is an inevitable consequence/result of the western culture/system and way of life that it will lead to this result i.e some europeans who cannot fulfull its expectations. You could not have it any other way even in you wanted it. Because western life places such high value and emphasis on appearance as compared to the majority of other cultures that there is soo much pressure on its subjects to conform to its expectations and the fact of the matter is not many can and it is these people that end up with non europeans because alot of non european cultures are more accepting/willing/tolerant and place lesser external emphasis (maybe internally its different) on appearance than the intolerant west that certain europeans who cannot fulfill the western expectations find comfort in other cultures who are less critical of them/expect less and are more willing to tolerate there appearance. This does not equate to mean that the non europeans/asians who accept these Europeans/Northern europeans do so on the basis of there looks or any admiration of there looks or becausee of any desire to take on white genes to improve there own looks but simple because they are more tolerant and although the subject of appearance is important to them they are more subtle and tolerant in there approach to it.
(2) As far as the south asian muslim girls go the very rare few there are with european men the fact is the south asian girls are simply taking the european men for a ride.
(3) As far as the south asian muslim men go the fact is thoose with the european women are with them because (a)they are after a green card or (b) to simply use the european women the way you use tissue paper and thrown it away/flush it down the toilet.
In both instances it is has very little to do with an admiration/desire for european looks.
(4) In south asia as far as the south asian mindset goes with respect to where fairness and beauty is concerned the fact is if in south asian you are fair skinned or are fair skinned and beautifull you will rarely ever hear "you look european" or "you look nordic" because as much as european/nordic beauty is admired the europeans are not the standard and never have been the standard against which the south asian mindset has compared fairness and beauty to and you only have to look so far as the Himalayan region of Northern kashmir to find your answer.
(5)As far as loosers and rejects go you could pretty much say that even in the south asian culture the south asians that date european men are considered as rejects/loosers etc for the simple reason that as far as Muslims/Muslim south asians go a Non-Muslim European and Muslim South Asian the issue would not even arise/it would not even be an issue.

I just stumbled upon this page and it grabbed my attention but I just have to thank Emily for banging in the truth about the average Asian.

I live in Vancouver, Canada, and went to a high school with over half the population being Asian. The whole Vancouver area is full of them. My point is on AVERAGE they are extremely ugly. My siblings and I always laughed at the school photos of them. They look retarded over half the time and then you get on the internet with them claiming they are the greatest looking women on earth.

I admit about 5% of them are GORGEOUS. Extremely rare and better-looking than most white women by far. They also usually are thin (and HAVE to be, if they put on any weight it never goes to good places). But most of them look like their faces were beat with a frying pan and then melted. Honestly, I find most of them difficult to look at.

I do feel kind of bad since they are some of the nicest and funniest people I know but, jeez, stop lying to people that never see Asians in real life and bashing white people (usually women).

We need masculine women to produce REAL men, and thanks to those women we can actually enjoy males who possess perfect masculine characteristics. I love musculine males and I will never be satisfied with anything that is less than a 100% pure men. Naturally, all true women feel this way- including me!

Observe the photo below; a composite of the faces of women with high estrogen levels on your left side and high low estrogen levels on your right:

The truth is that neither of those faces are really unattractive. However, one is clearly more attractive than the other, the one on your left. Now, this supports Erik's theory that feminine women are more attractive, a theory he has convinced me with.

Now, Erik has another theory that Northern European women seem to be more feminine and on average more attractive than any other European women and other races of women in general. However, I have to disagree and I want to use the photograph above as the reason why.

If you look at the feminine woman, her features are not typically Northern European but Central European. You could say there is a slight shift towards a Northern European look, but can I say SLIGHT! If you look at the other photo you can see the woman on the right has a more Northern European appearance overall than the woman on the left. She has a higher nose bridge, more defined chin, and less rounded face and cheekbones.

These are all features you will more easily find among Northern European women than central European women. I am not going to get into Southern/Eastern European women, as I feel they are more complicated. I will admit that it Southern/Eastern European women may be less attractive ON AVERAGE than Northern/Central European women. Why is up for debate.

Either way, if the Nordic nose is the perfect nose or if Nordic features are most attractive, this photograph doesn't seem to support that and tells a different story.

I would say Central European features with a slight shift towards Northern European features are most attractive. However, when I say Northern European I mean Germany,Ireland,England etc. I believe once you get into the Scandinavian countries the bone structure is different and in my opinion less attractive.