regarding spreading democracy... One time a few years back I tried raising chickens. I order 18 hens and 2 roosters, but somehow ended up with 4 roosters. They were fun, especially while they were all still chicks, but to get to the point... Having 4 roosters turned out to be problematic. They were terrorizing the hens (clawing all the feathers off their backs, biting, etc.) and I thought I could improve things by doing a little "social engineering".

I noticed which of the roosters was the most dominant and, since it was old enough for butchering, I took him out and made a meal of him. My thinking was as follows: If a gentler rooster were to be head honcho, things would be better for the hens.

What I found out was in the wake of power from the more dominant rooster, the next one became just as bad, if not worse. So I killed off that one, too. Same thing happened again.

The last of the roosters was different. I think if there was such a thing as an effeminate rooster, this one would be it. He was "hen-pecked" in the truest sense of the word. No balls. So, I was still in evil scientist mode (and we had, arguably, procured the chickens for meat as well as eggs), so I butchered this one, too.

The result? A new monster? No. I ended up with unfertilized eggs and chaos in the chicken yard.

My point?

Societies get to where they are over long evolutionary processes. An external force stepping in and trying to make instant changes will likely fail. We, as a democracy, became that way because of a chain of events that happened over time - from Roman democracies, to middle-ages Europe, through the reformation and age of enlightenment, Magna Carta, religious persecution and escape, John Locke and Blackman, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, etc..

To think we could go to another culture and inject the "democracy serum" seems to me to be some combination of childish idealism and arrogance.

That's not to say that we shouldn't try to encourage other cultures to benefit from what has been good in ours. But to think that we can bypass all the necessary cultural foundation work, and expect it to take root within a timespan in the annals of history that is the relative equivalent of a half-hour sit-com (and then complain that it's not working) is just plain lunacy.

Dan (who misses sitting out near his chicken yard at lunchtime)

Baltimore MD

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ok, treading back in political posting, god help me... It amazes me that there are those who actually believe that it is possible to 'change the mindset' of an entire nation, or nations. It amazes me that there are people who believe it is possible to 'spread' democracy across the entire planet, or that the entire planet even wants it spread to them. It amazes me that there are still people who believe that WMDs existed, or that this military action had any real basis in WMD, or that somehow Iraq posed an imminent threat to the US. The ability of one group of people, or of a government to extract blind faith from its constituents, is by far the greatest WMD in the history of the world. QUESTION YOUR LEADERS, HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE, and for god's sake, educate yourself. Ok..somebody please pull me out of this topic!!!

E Fallowfield PA

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continued..... Then do what we say. Look whats happenning in Sudan now, were it not for Collin Powell the UN would be sitting on it's ass twiddling it's thumbs saying this world is a wonderful place.

Miramar FL

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As for the UN. That institution has no backbone, they are like a dog that just bark and bark and bark.For the sake of world opinion we went to the UN,got them to pass yet another resolution(1441) for Sadam to comply.The UN said if he did not comply he would be in "material breach", Sadam thumbed his nose at them(>>>>not sure OIL FOR FOOD HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT<<<<<)and when time came for the UN to enforce it's own resolution it balked. So we only did what the UN said it was going to do.Now Koffi Annan is going around saying this is an illegal war. If this war is Illegal then the resolution was illegal.We have to take stand and say what we mean.

Miramar FL

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For all you doubting Thomases it took 50yrs for democracy to spead the Eastern Europe.All it takes is commitment,vision and deducation.This can be done with a united USA leading the world(not with John Kerry though he thinks we can contain the.....oops not sure what he thinks as a matter of fact not sure he knows what he thinks).It takes time and it needs someone who sees and understand the bigger picture. By the way curios...untill we are no linger dependent on foriegn oil the middleeast will always be a necessary evil(so to speak)

Miramar FL

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CuriousNew> "The difference between China and the Arab countries of the Middle East is that we are not seen by the average Chinese as taking advantage of them in any way. We are seen there as bringing Coke, McDonalds, Madonna and Cheers. Oddly, they like all those things."

Also you seem to forget(or you are selective in your memory)thet there was an Egyptian president by the name of Anwar Sadat who was killed by radical fundamentalist who opposed him making peace with Israel. The USA will always support Israel, the radical fundamentalist will always oppose her so unitll you change the mindset of the people of the middleeast you will always have strife and warand that begins with a democratic Iraq which will spead all around the region.

Miramar FL

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As for WMD it is sad that your memory is so short because had it not been for WMDs your primary lanuage would be RUSSIAN

Miramar FL

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CuriosNew,you seem to be very selective in your memory as for the UN is concerned. The UN did "aurthorise" the use of force against Iraq and did not have the backbone to follow up on that.It took vision and courage to do what the president. He led a charge that only the brave and the willing had the courage and foresight to see.