Re: <Spoilers> Ending doctors gone wild? This is not how science works...

@VampireSoap Actually, it's worse than that. They are BSing their way through this scenario, emotionally I mean. They are going to kill someone. They are going to kill a girl, who is seemingly innocent and deserves her life. They are doing so without having to speak with her. They NEED to rush her into surgery so that they don't have to have their guilt compound. All they've seen is Ellie lying unconscious. If she were to wake, show movement, and speak, then the doctors would never be able to cope with what they planned on doing. So, they have to rush and kill her straight away, so that after a few years they can move on.

In other words, the Fireflies are the worst monsters imaginable.

A better lie to tell Joel would be that Ellie has suffered too much internal damage from the near-drowning and is in a coma, likely to never wake. This would fit their criteria of rushing into the surgery, because they don't want to risk her dying of this drowning malady, and it would be a better deterrent in terms of upsetting Joel.

Re: <Spoilers> Ending doctors gone wild? This is not how science works...

@VampireSoap Actually, it's worse than that. They are BSing their way through this scenario, emotionally I mean. They are going to kill someone. They are going to kill a girl, who is seemingly innocent and deserves her life. They are doing so without having to speak with her. They NEED to rush her into surgery so that they don't have to have their guilt compound. All they've seen is Ellie lying unconscious. If she were to wake, show movement, and speak, then the doctors would never be able to cope with what they planned on doing. So, they have to rush and kill her straight away, so that after a few years they can move on.

In other words, the Fireflies are the worst monsters imaginable.

A better lie to tell Joel would be that Ellie has suffered too much internal damage from the near-drowning and is in a coma, likely to never wake. This would fit their criteria of rushing into the surgery, because they don't want to risk her dying of this drowning malady, and it would be a better deterrent in terms of upsetting Joel.

MaidenVelka wrote:@VampireSoap Actually, it's worse than that. They are BSing their way through this scenario, emotionally I mean. They are going to kill someone. They are going to kill a girl, who is seemingly innocent and deserves her life. They are doing so without having to speak with her. They NEED to rush her into surgery so that they don't have to have their guilt compound. All they've seen is Ellie lying unconscious. If she were to wake, show movement, and speak, then the doctors would never be able to cope with what they planned on doing. So, they have to rush and kill her straight away, so that after a few years they can move on.

That's a very good theory from a humanitarian perspective MaidenVelka. However, I don't think that's what happens in the game...Doctors usually aren't this emotional. And these Fireflies doctors probably have already done similar immoral things before...I just don't think it's guilt that moves them to cut Ellie open.

Re: <Spoilers> Ending doctors gone wild? This is not how science works...

Agreed, which is why I said it's the option of avoiding feeling any significant amount of guilt that helps motivate them. Even if they are moralless cutters, they will still feel some amount of guilt in killing a living person. Regardless if it is for a vaccine or not. If that living person is completely unconscious from the time they are brought into the hospital to the time they are doped with heavy anesthestia, then that guilt will be fractional, or, minimal. If that person wakes and reveals a personality, especially one that is so vibrant like Ellie, then that guilt will be large.

If Ellie had been presented with the option of death, she may have decided against it. The game never gave us that answer, and we'll never know. Had she told the surgeon that she did not want to die, his supposed moral code would be in complete jeopardy. Perhaps he would still be willing to break it but that, again, is where the guilt would surmount. Best to avoid it altogether, never wait for Ellie to wake, and kill her while she is unresponsive.

Avoidance of guilt by option of the easiest, least invested path.

I insist that anyone would feel some amount of guilt, because the game gives us the perfect example of a stone-cold badass retaining emotions in Joel.

Re: <Spoilers> Ending doctors gone wild? This is not how science works...

@conquerator3Haha, even if they lied and told Joel she was going to die anyway, he would probably still start killing them. He'd make his peace, be on his way out of the hospital, check his broken watch and realize that it's time to kill someone. It's his OCD!

Re: <Spoilers> Ending doctors gone wild? This is not how science works...

conquerator3 wrote:I am not a doctor myself but I'd assume in their time and condition it'd seem reverse engineer a vaccine from her brain is the.only option and from what I understand this'd kill her. Since they don't know any other option and they did not study her much... Well I guess they just were desperate but that is not an excuse.The old fashioned way is a good catch. From what I understand there is a 50/50 chance that the children will be healthy or immune... It might even be born infected for all we know I guess.But for what it's worth, she is 14 and she could have plenty of babies anytime... That is if she is fertile. There are artificial ways of course but they might not work.I mean theoretically speaking, Joel could take on that. I know nowadays it would be considered a rape but at given situation I am sure they'd come to terms and since it'd also mean Ellie surviving... Well it'd be acceptable me thinks... (nothing to do with rule 34)I am not sure If the man who'd impregnate her gets infected or immune though so... It's all for interpretation, obviously.Good thread though.

Dude...

Joel loves Ellie like a daughter. Why would you even theoretically think of that. **bleep**ed up man.

Re: <Spoilers> Ending doctors gone wild? This is not how science works...

conquerator3 wrote:I am not a doctor myself but I'd assume in their time and condition it'd seem reverse engineer a vaccine from her brain is the.only option and from what I understand this'd kill her. Since they don't know any other option and they did not study her much... Well I guess they just were desperate but that is not an excuse.The old fashioned way is a good catch. From what I understand there is a 50/50 chance that the children will be healthy or immune... It might even be born infected for all we know I guess.But for what it's worth, she is 14 and she could have plenty of babies anytime... That is if she is fertile. There are artificial ways of course but they might not work.I mean theoretically speaking, Joel could take on that. I know nowadays it would be considered a rape but at given situation I am sure they'd come to terms and since it'd also mean Ellie surviving... Well it'd be acceptable me thinks... (nothing to do with rule 34)I am not sure If the man who'd impregnate her gets infected or immune though so... It's all for interpretation, obviously.Good thread though.

Dude...

Joel loves Ellie like a daughter. Why would you even theoretically think of that. **bleep**ed up man.

Ok, I guess I am then... Thanks for clearing that up for me man! Go ask around, I am sure everyone will agree with you

OT - if you looked at it from this point of view - how many people her age that are healthy and did not try to kill them did they met? 1 who is no more... What if it was the only choice other than die? If you looked at it from a different point, perhaps you are the one who is wicked... I mentioned all that in my post anyway.

Re: <Spoilers> Ending doctors gone wild? This is not how science works...

Ok...I see your point, but if all the doctors ever want is "avoidance of guilt" like you said, don't you think they could induce a coma for a few days? You know, to keep Ellie "fresh" while paralysing her?

Re: <Spoilers> Ending doctors gone wild? This is not how science works...

A lot of people seem to be convinced that a vaccine would not have been possible...but you have to go by what the story is telling you and not what your head is saying would be possible in real life. In the game, the story tells you, through Marlene's confidence, that they could indeed produce a vaccine, and save mankind. Gamers got so attached to Ellie, that it's hard to believe that killing her would, indeed, be the saving grace.

Re: <Spoilers> Ending doctors gone wild? This is not how science works...

No offense meant TomatoDragon, but I don't think that was said in this thread at all. I may have missed it, but I know I never said such a thing. I'm 100% certain that the vaccine would have been real because, as you said, the game reveals to the player that it is.

This changes nothing with what I've said, and 'saving grace' is completely arguable. Saving a race of fiends that want to eat each other and rape a fourteen year old girl is not an act of grace. **** humanity.

@Vampire Yes, sure but, that isn't what I'm saying they are avoiding. If Ellie wakes at all, to learn of her fate or reveal that she is a living being with a personality, it makes it that much harder to kill her. Think about dropping a large rock onto a puppy (brutal, yes, but I feel the need to go this far). Someone tells you to do it, because it will save humanity. The puppy is just lying there, barely even breathing. You consider dropping the rock, knowing you are going to be upset for days and weeks, perhaps it will haunt you now and then for the rest of your life.

Then the puppy wakes up. It yawns, yaps a bunch and jumps up on to your leg, begging for attention. It's eyes are big and adorable, perhaps the cutest puppy you've ever seen, and it seems to be interested in you. Now drop the rock to smash it's little body into a gory mess, decidingly ending its life. It gets a lot harder.