Jesus tap-dancing Christ, I just saw "Expelled," Ben Stein's documentary detailing the 'persecution' of the intelligent design argument in the global scientific community.

A few gems:

1) A cartoon featuring Dawkins ["Come on, Mother Nature, work your magic!"] attempting to best 250 slot machines in a row (representing the approximately 250 proteins necessary for a self sufficient molecule), subsequently losing and pouting amidst the giggles of the intended audience.

2) An extensive argument against Darwinism on the basis that belief in such things inevitably leads to Nazi eugenics (includes a guided tour of the Hadamar Clinic!).

3) A delightful wrap-up montage of the Berlin Wall coming down as a handful of I.D. supporting science figures wax inspirational about one day being able to cross over from the metaphorical East Germany of scientific ostracism into the self-contained elite circle of closed-minded, anti-inquiry scientists who subscribe to the questionable consensus of natural selection...and what a glorious day it shall be.

...Hallelujah!

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mpawluk wrote:

OzzyApu wrote:

So if you'll be fucking chicks with Manowar condoms, does that really mean that Manowar is fucking your chick?

Would it kill people to make nice unbiased feature-length documentaries?

I was going to watch this, as in my ignorance I thought for ONCE we were going to have a film that actually had a look at the state of science today and be a reasonable discussion on evolution and intelligent design in general, and maybe a look at the relationship between science and religion without being a soapbox for either side. Obviously it was too much to ask, and I should've known better after Farenheit 9/11 and the like.

...I thought for ONCE we were going to have a film that actually had a look at the state of science today and be a reasonable discussion on evolution and intelligent design in general, and maybe a look at the relationship between science and religion without being a soapbox for either side...

You ARE talking about the ID crowd here y'know... Reasonable and unbiased aren't really in the vocabulary.

I can understand why people get all worked up but remove the "Intelligent" (a subtext for God in ID) and you do have some interesting, albeit controversial, cosmological arguments. Barrow and Tiplers 'Strong Anthropic Principle' states that the Universe must have parameters such that life can exist and no less than John Wheeler (sadly now RIP) proposed the 'Participatory Anthropic Principle' whereby observation brings the universe into existence (he argues this can be inferred from quantum mechanics and given that he is one of the absolute giants of 20th century physics I won't try to disagree). These are, of course, theories and currently untestable and very different from ID but unfortunately can be tarred with the same brush.

Essentially the paper provides an argument based on quantum mechanics for how beneficial mutants can arise in a non-random fashion. Roger Penrose has proposed a similar argument for the acquisition of consciousness. All very controversial but all involve a clear 'design' principle.

Ben Stein believes in Intelligent Design?? And he made a documentary film about it?

This isn't the same Ben Stein from Win Ben Stein's Money, is it? I mean, that guy was so fucking smart!

Yup. Depressing, isn't it?

NO YOU LIE!

WHY DO YOU LIIIEEE!??

Bueller? Bueller?

Yes, it's the same guy. One of the most hilarious things about the movie is that the hardcore religious right loves it, and they don't even realize he's Jewish. *snigger* Which means he doesn't believe in Jesus. *louder snigger* Which means, according to their beliefs, he's going to burn in hell.

Also, the makers of the movie are being sued for copyright infringement. Check it out.

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The_Beast_In_Black wrote:

In the interests of fairness, Japan is not allowed in any ridiculousness contests.

Anyway, I'm really stupid. Intelligent design - survival of the fittest, right? Ben Stein is REFUTING it in this movie? I remember there being a thread on it when this first was announced, but I don't remember what was going on.

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gomorro wrote:

Yesterday was the birthday of school pal and I met the chick of my sigh (I've talked about here before, the she-wolf I use to be inlove with)... Maaan she was using a mini-skirt too damn insane... Dude you could saw her entire soul every time she sit...

Anyway, I'm really stupid. Intelligent design - survival of the fittest, right? Ben Stein is REFUTING it in this movie? I remember there being a thread on it when this first was announced, but I don't remember what was going on.

"Survival of the fittest" is a popular euphemism for natural selection. Ben Stein is advocating Intelligent Design and mocking evolution, as well as claiming that it was instrumental in the Holocaust. He never defines what Intelligent Design is, and of course not present any evidence. There is no science in this movie; it is a propaganda flick and should be taken roughly as seriously as Michael Moore's trash.

Anyway, I'm really stupid. Intelligent design - survival of the fittest, right? Ben Stein is REFUTING it in this movie? I remember there being a thread on it when this first was announced, but I don't remember what was going on.

Intelligent design=Creatonism, which Ben Stein supports.

Survival of the fittest=Darwinism (in essence), which Expelled is supposedly trying to refute. From the trailer, I got the sense that it wasn't anti-Darwinism per se, but apparently that's not the case.

Ok thanks Scourge and Osmium. Now I remember which side I'm on. However, why what's so intelligent about the design of Creationism?

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gomorro wrote:

Yesterday was the birthday of school pal and I met the chick of my sigh (I've talked about here before, the she-wolf I use to be inlove with)... Maaan she was using a mini-skirt too damn insane... Dude you could saw her entire soul every time she sit...

You ARE talking about the ID crowd here y'know... Reasonable and unbiased aren't really in the vocabulary.

When I first heard about Intelligent Design, I thought it was some sort of happy middle-ground between atheistic and theistic views regarding evolution. I didn't think it was going to be basically creationist propaganda masquerading as science.

Anyway, I'm really stupid. Intelligent design - survival of the fittest, right? Ben Stein is REFUTING it in this movie? I remember there being a thread on it when this first was announced, but I don't remember what was going on.

"Survival of the fittest" is a popular euphemism for natural selection. Ben Stein is advocating Intelligent Design and mocking evolution, as well as claiming that it was instrumental in the Holocaust. He never defines what Intelligent Design is, and of course not present any evidence. There is no science in this movie; it is a propaganda flick and should be taken roughly as seriously as Michael Moore's trash.

This is all Michael Moore's fault. Propaganda films are becoming the new trend. I found one in a store that was pertaining to some environmental thing and it was hosted or narrated or otherwise supported by Leonardo DiCaprio.

Modern people are now as easily swayed as the masses in Nazi Germany or the masses in Communist Russia. Just make a film and everybody suddenly thinks it's factual.

Anyway, I'm really stupid. Intelligent design - survival of the fittest, right? Ben Stein is REFUTING it in this movie? I remember there being a thread on it when this first was announced, but I don't remember what was going on.

Because they're both funny, dude. My DVD shelf is mostly action movies, gangster movies and TV series, with a bit of sports and comedy though not much comedy. I also think that in some 140 DVDs, I've got 4 that are rated lower than a 15. Hence why this drivel belongs between the two - though I rather like Anchorman and so putting them side by side would offend the mighty Ron Burgundy.

_________________Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing._________________
Robots drank my beer.

Ahh the good old Holocaust strawman. It's like Francis Galton never existed.

It's sad that people don't like any elements of science that doesn't put humans, or life in general, on a pedestal. Looking at some religious nutters, I wonder whether the cerebral cortex is actually a good thing, sometimes.

Sir_General_Flashman wrote:

When my dad was a kid evolution wasn't even challenged, why the fuck does it have to be now. It's proven to me, especially after going to the Galapagos.

Yeah but if you go parts of the Deep South in America, some people clearly didn't evolve. What reason do they have to believe in evolution?

Ahh the good old Holocaust strawman. It's like Francis Galton never existed.

It's sad that people don't like any elements of science that doesn't put humans, or life in general, on a pedestal. Looking at some religious nutters, I wonder whether the cerebral cortex is actually a good thing, sometimes.

Sir_General_Flashman wrote:

When my dad was a kid evolution wasn't even challenged, why the fuck does it have to be now. It's proven to me, especially after going to the Galapagos.

Yeah but if you go parts of the Deep South in America, some people clearly didn't evolve. What reason do they have to believe in evolution?

Ahh the good old Holocaust strawman. It's like Francis Galton never existed.

It's sad that people don't like any elements of science that doesn't put humans, or life in general, on a pedestal. Looking at some religious nutters, I wonder whether the cerebral cortex is actually a good thing, sometimes.

Sir_General_Flashman wrote:

When my dad was a kid evolution wasn't even challenged, why the fuck does it have to be now. It's proven to me, especially after going to the Galapagos.

Yeah but if you go parts of the Deep South in America, some people clearly didn't evolve. What reason do they have to believe in evolution?

Have you been to the American south?

I did say "parts of". I should say 'bible belt' regions, if that's any better. My post was partially in jest.

Ahh the good old Holocaust strawman. It's like Francis Galton never existed.

It's sad that people don't like any elements of science that doesn't put humans, or life in general, on a pedestal. Looking at some religious nutters, I wonder whether the cerebral cortex is actually a good thing, sometimes.

Sir_General_Flashman wrote:

When my dad was a kid evolution wasn't even challenged, why the fuck does it have to be now. It's proven to me, especially after going to the Galapagos.

Yeah but if you go parts of the Deep South in America, some people clearly didn't evolve. What reason do they have to believe in evolution?

Have you been to the American south?

I did say "parts of". I should say 'bible belt' regions, if that's any better. My post was partially in jest.

Gotcha. I'm actually listening to the interview with one of the guys who made this joke of a film right now.

I find it funny that there are actually people out there who think there is an atheist conspiracy to keep creationism out of science. There are plenty theists who are scientist and even biologists, but they must be in on the conspiracy too

I find it funny that there are actually people out there who think there is an atheist conspiracy to keep creationism out of science. There are plenty theists who are scientist and even biologists, but they must be in on the conspiracy too

They would probably say such people aren't real Christians

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Agonizer wrote:

My views may be extreme, and you may not agree with them. That's your perogative. At least I'm a cum dumpster.

I find it funny that there are actually people out there who think there is an atheist conspiracy to keep creationism out of science. There are plenty theists who are scientist and even biologists, but they must be in on the conspiracy too

"It's all Satan's work! He is in charge of the secret Illuminati that controls the world, the Pope is his puppet! The endtimes are nigh!

The music industry is directly under the control of Satan, who uses it to spread subliminal witchcraft and nasty curses to the youth through pagan drum beats! It turns you into a vampire!"

I wish I was joking when I say this, but I've seen those exact claims made many times.

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gomorro wrote:

Fortunately the seminar started and when it finished, I runed away like if Usain Bolt were about to rape me.

Wow, reading the comments on the IMDB board for this movie is so stupid. Most of the topics are why are you so close minded evolution is only a theory, if you really wanted to disprove it you would prove it. Arghh it makes me so angry.

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red_blood_inside wrote:

I forsee a new metal style called Death-Grind-Power-Ranger-Potter of the rings, and its kvltnes and tr00ness will be beyond this world

Don't bother, it's an intellectually dishonest film, and mostly likely preaching to the choir anyway. I too am listening to the interview with Mark Mathis - and it's stunning how he evades pertinent questions, makes leaps of logic, engages in ad hominems and claims ignorance all at once. He could be a frigging lawyer, not an associate producer of a numbskull movie.

I find it funny that there are actually people out there who think there is an atheist conspiracy to keep creationism out of science. There are plenty theists who are scientist and even biologists, but they must be in on the conspiracy too

Its the oldest trick in the conservative book. Accuse your opponent of something that you're actually guilty of, then when they retort with the truth, act like they're childish and stealing your idea. George W. Bush has been doing this for years. You'd be surprised how often it works. It short-circuits peoples brains or something.

I find it funny that there are actually people out there who think there is an atheist conspiracy to keep creationism out of science. There are plenty theists who are scientist and even biologists, but they must be in on the conspiracy too

Its the oldest trick in the conservative book. Accuse your opponent of something that you're actually guilty of, then when they retort with the truth, act like they're childish and stealing your idea. George W. Bush has been doing this for years. You'd be surprised how often it works. It short-circuits peoples brains or something.

Don't try to veer this into a left-vs-right conversation. Conservatives are hardly the only hippocrites.

I certainly don't want it to be a left vs right thing either. There is an atheist 'right' discourse as well as a religious 'left' one. To think it only applies vice-versa is a very ethnocentric concept, used only by those who can only communicate in rhetoric.

I find it funny that there are actually people out there who think there is an atheist conspiracy to keep creationism out of science. There are plenty theists who are scientist and even biologists, but they must be in on the conspiracy too

Its the oldest trick in the conservative book. Accuse your opponent of something that you're actually guilty of, then when they retort with the truth, act like they're childish and stealing your idea. George W. Bush has been doing this for years. You'd be surprised how often it works. It short-circuits peoples brains or something.

Don't try to veer this into a left-vs-right conversation. Conservatives are hardly the only hippocrites.

Just pointing out their tactics. I have at least as much contempt for liberals. In this case though, we happen to be talking about the right's hypocrisy only because we're talking about ID.