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Nun So Blind

From top: The former Master of the National Maternity Hospital, Dr. Peter Boylan; NMH chairman Nicholas Kearns and From left: Kay Connolly, Chief Operating Officer of St Vincent’s Hospital, Minister for Health Simon Harris TD and Dr Rhona Mahony Master, National Maternity Hospital with a model of St Vincents University Hospital.

This morning on RTÉ Radio One’s Today with Sean O’Rourke the handover of the ownership of the National Maternity Hospital to the Sisters of Charity was discussed.

Rhona Mahony, Master of Holles Street, and Nicholas Kearns, chairman of the National Maternity Hospital defended the decision and addressed criticism from former Master of Holles Street Dr Peter Boylan

Sean O’Rourke: “The concern over the ownership and governance of the new National Maternity Hospital to be located at St Vincent’s Hospital at Elm Park, continues to grow. The new Minister for Health, Simon Harris, has said the hospital will have complete clinical, financial, budgetary and operational independence, however on Morning Ireland earlier, the former Master of the National Maternity Hospital, Dr Peter Boylan, said that in his view it’s inappropriate for the State to invest 300 million Euro of taxpayers’ money into a new maternity hospital that would have a strong religious influence.

With me now in studio are the current Master of Holles Street Dr Rhona Mahony and the Chair of the Hospital Board or he’s de facto the Chair, former President of the High Court Nicholas Kearns who both represented Holles St in the negotiations with St Vincent’s Hospital. Good morning to you both, you’re both very welcome to the studio. First of all, Mr Kearns, are you surprised by the controversy that has engulfed this move .. several weeks, a couple of months after it was announced?”

Nicholas Kearns: “Very surprised. In Holles Street we are surprised and disappointed in particular by Dr Boylan’s late intervention in such a public way in this whole matter, it’s very difficult for us to understand, he’s a serving member of the Board, a board which voted by an overwhelming majority to approve this agreement, this is in a sense nothing new, the idea of moving to the campus in Elm Park has been there since 2003, through all these years that followed Dr Boylan has been working in the hospital up to his retirement last year, the proposal has been there, nothing has been changed, when these latest round of negotiations began in 2016 we spent up to six months battling for exactly the kind of independence and safety of the ethos and practice of Holles St we could possibly obtain and we are satisfied and I am satisfied, Sean, as a lawyer that the arrangements we have put in place for independence are legally accurate and sound.”

O’Rourke: “And that agreement, has it been published?”

Kearns: “The full terms of it have not been published, this was an exercise conducted on a confidential basis throughout by [workplace mediator] Kieran Mulvey.”
O’Rourke: “At this stage might help if the whole thing was published and put out there and people could decide.”
Kearns: “In effect, the Minister has disclosed the key elements in these reserved powers and I was frankly surprised that people are not reassured by the binding nature of these reserved powers, can I just run through them quickly? Firstly, as one of the main objectives for the agreement it provides that under this arrangement the new company, the hospital in Elm Park, will provide a range of health services in the community as heretofore, such operation and provision to be conducted in accordance with the newly agreed clinical governance arrangements for the National Maternity Hospital at Elm Park by providing as far as possible by whatever manner and means from time to time available for the health happiness and welfare of those accepted as patients without religious or ethnic or other distinction and by supporting the work of all involved in the delivery of care to such patients and their families or guardians including research or investigation which may further such work. Now just very quickly the reserved powers and then I’ll stop.

The Reserved powers guarantee 1. the clinical and operational independence in the provision of maternity gynecology obstetrics and neonatal services without religious ethnic or other distinction in the hospital at Elm Park and the provision of medical, surgical, nursing and midwifery and other health services at Elm Park in accordance with strategic planning in relation to the development of other health services in the future, in accordance with developing best practices and all financial and budgetary matters as they relate to the National Maternity Hospital will remain under their control.

Just one last point… it’s very important because sight is being lost of this somewhere in this furore which as I say happened very late in the day after the planning application has been lodged months after this agreement was finalized in November, the annual SLA with the HSA is to be agreed, the annual service level agreement with regard to budgets and staffing Mastership model is to be retained and so….”

O’Rourke: “Rhona Mahony as Master of Holles St, the National Maternity Hospital, are you entirely happy with the arrangements made for this?”

Mahony: “Absolutely To put it at its simplest there’s a triple lock in place to guarantee autonomy and independence in the clinical services we deliver. First of all the Mastership is retained so you will have the Master as you do today who will oversee the day to day operations of the hospital, you have an entirely independent company, an entirely independent board that is solely dedicated to the provision of maternity, gynaecological and neonatal services and that board sits over the reserved powers which again absolutely guarantee clinical independence, so let’s be really clear about this Sean, at the moment in Holles St we provide services to women, these include contraception we have about 5 terminations of pregnancy every year under the Protection of Life Act because women will otherwise die, this will continue in the new hospital, this clinical independence is absolutely copper fastened.”

O’Rourke: “So can I ask you then, what about the six months of negotiation why was it necessary to bring in Kieran Mulvey? What was all the row about then?”

Mahony: “This was if you like a new departure, we’ve never had two hospitals come together, remember we are two voluntary hospitals, we have independent boards we have different practices as well, we are a maternity hospital we had to negotiate, we are the first hospital to negotiate the unique arrangement that will allow each hospital maintain the integrity of their services but will also allow for the collaboration of their services so that the patient will benefit, so let’s come back to the patient and I think you know we’ve heard so little about the patient in the last few days, I operate in a hospital that delivers 9.000 babies every year, it’s a tertiary hospital that cares for the sickest women in this country and for the sickest babies in this country, we are delivering this care in an infrastructure parts of which date back to the 1700s, we are shoehorned into a building that was never meant to be a hospital, it is totally unsuitable and it brings with it operational risks we have opportunity to build a hospital for women and infants that is state of the art, purpose built and will sit in a campus that provides purpose built tertiary, surgical, medical and diagnostic service, now let’s think about this if this doesn’t go ahead and we’re going to mix this really important critical development for women with the redress scheme, will we be punishing women further in this country by interfering and getting into the way of building a hospital that is so urgently needed for women?”
O’Rourke: “Now just on that point, seeing as Rhona has raised it, Nicholas Kearns, did the question of the appropriateness or otherwise of making this agreement with the Sisters of Charity in the context of their still not having fulfilled their promises and obligations under the Redress Scheme, did that enter the negotiations at all or was it in any way a consideration and if not why not?”
Kearns: “No it wasn’t considered, we were focusing entirely on the move and believe me the number of issues that arose in that context are legion, this is a very serious issue, you’ve raised a very serious one for those affected by past historic events.”
O’Rourke: “And it’s about accountability in the view of many people who feel very strongly about that.”
Kearns: “I agree but in terms of this particular project this never surfaced as an issue and frankly it is an issue to my way of thinking that runs separately and distinctly from the provision of a maternity hospital on the site out there.”
O’Rourke: “We might come back to that later if we have time but I just want to go back to something Peter Boylan said on Morning Ireland, the influence of the nuns’ ethos, now you say you’re satisfied but he raised the question about ethos and let’s here’s what he said and you might like to respond to it.”

[plays recording]
Peter Boylan: “Her [Sister Agnes Reynolds, of the Sisters of Charity who sits on the board of the St Vincent’s Healthcare Group] statements today when you pick it up and you read it is seems as if she’s speaking on behalf of, she’s assuming that Vincent’s in fact own the National Maternity Hospital, she seems to be speaking on behalf of it and that’s the future if this deal goes ahead as it is.”

Audrey Carville: “And what’s wrong with that because there will be people listening to this this morning and wondering what’s wrong with that?”

Boylan: “What’s wrong with that is that the State is investing 300 million of your money and my money in a new maternity hospital and it’s inappropriate that that hospital should have a strong religious influence, particularly from the Catholic Church with all its bad history in relation to women.”

Carville: “But they have denied on previous occasions that a Catholic ethos affects what work they carry out?”

Boylan: “Well, that’s incorrect. They can’t do vasectomies for example in St Vincent’s Hospital, which their chairman didn’t seem to be aware of, indeed, they can’t do female sterilizations, now in a practical sense that doesn’t cause difficulties because there are other places that do them, but when it comes to issues like abortion and IVF and so on which are directly contrary to the nuns’ beliefs and that’s fair enough, they have their beliefs, they are entitled to be protected but why on earth do they own or why do they want to own a maternity hospital.”

O’Rourke: Yeah, that’s Peter Boylan referring to Sister Agnes who is quoted in the Irish Times today, she’s a member of the Order concerned, the Sisters of Charity and on the question of whether they would influence the medical care provided, she says she can’t make a judgment on this, he makes the point, that is okay for now but down the road because the Catholic Church plays a long game this will come back effectively to haunt you…”

Mahony: “Yeah, well let’s be very clear I am speaking on behalf of the National Maternity Hospital today, I have been directly involved in the negotiation and I understand the agreement which is backed up by really sound legal advice so let me be really clear, first of all I am really surprised that the Chairman of the Institute of Obstetrics and Gynaecology would be so misleading on radio this morning as to suggest the nuns would be running the hospital, this is not true, to suggest that this hospital would run under Catholic ethos, this is not true,

When the National Maternity Hospital moves to the Elm Park campus it will be an independent hospital, an independent company with its own independent board dedicated solely to the provision of gynaecological ,maternity and neonatal services, the services we provide at the National Maternity Hospital at the moment are absolutely protected under the reserved powers, we will continue to precise contraception we will continue to terminate pregnancies to save the woman’s life, we will continue to deliver excellence in health care and the ethos will be excellence in clinical care, it will not be any religious etho.s”

O’Rourke: “Yes but to ask the questions in specific terms which Peter Boylan posed earlier on there will be abortions and terminations?”

Mahony: “Yes, under the current law.”

O’Rourke: “Yes, but the law may very well change in the next year, 18 months or thereabouts. Will there be abortions on request maybe for social reasons if that’s what allowed?”

Mahony: “The National Maternity Hospital will continue to practice according to the law of this country, it will continue to practice within the interests of our patients, we have our patients at the centre of our concerns at all times and I’m telling you Sean we need a new maternity hospital for women it’s a disgrace, a disgrace that the three Dublin maternity hospitals in this country are in such poor repair, that no one has interfered before this, for the last two decades we have been trying to build a proper hospital, women and women deserve a hospital that is purpose built for them that is appropriate, that provides the appropriate care for women and babies because we look after very sick women, we look after very sick babies and I think they deserve the best of care.”

O’Rourke: “On the questions, Nicholas Kearns, that were raised by Peter Boylan, he says if it still is the case that abortions allowed it will be the first Catholic owned hospital in the world where this is allowed?”

Kearns: “I think what he said was the agreement is the first of its kind which in terms of preserving the ethos of Holles Street makes that particular provision but I think that’s something the negotiators on both sides both Vincents’ and Holles St can take considerable pride in. This was a unique situation, it required a unique solution and it got it in this agreement and I would like on behalf of the hospital to dissociate itself from the criticism made of the St Vincent’s chairman this morning on the radio I think that was totally and wholly inappropriate and uncalled for.”

O’Rourke: “Well I don’t know whether he was accurate or otherwise in saying that the chairman didn’t appear to be aware that you couldn’t have sterilization in St Vincent’s. I don’t know if that was true or not.”

Mahony: “This will not be St Vincent’s Hospital, it is going to be its own maternity hospital with a public and dedicated board. When we come back to ownership the ownership of a public hospital is really neither here nor there, it is control and delivery of services within that hospital which is important. I couldn’t care less who owns my hospital building but I really care that I have control of the service that I deliver and that I can give clinical care to women as is appropriate.”

O’Rourke: “Who’s going to be on the board, Mr Kearns. It’s a nine member board, who nominates?”

Kearns: “Well, NMH will nominate their four reps on the board and Vincent’s will nominate their four on the board.”

O’Rourke: “4 and 4 And the chairperson will be?”

Kearns: “And the chairperson will be an international expert in obstetrics, that doesn’t necessarily mean someone coming from overseas but somebody who is recognized internationally.”

O’Rourke: “I want to go to a second clip from Peter Boylan where he suggests, in fact, that this is an arrangement that you have bee forced to accept.”

Boylan: “But I think that they have been backed into a corner really effectively by the Minister who has effectively said this is the deal either the hospital is owned 100% by Sisters of Charity and the company owning it is owned 100% by the Sisters of Charity or its not going to happen.”

Carville: “The Minister says in tweets again, he hasn’t done an interview on this yet but he has tweeted that they will have no role in the provision of health care in this hospital.”

Boylan: “Well Sister Agnes who will be one of the shareholders owning it, and effectively on the board, disagrees with this and she’s said so. I think Sister Agnes’ comments have exposed the while thing completely, and I think Holles Street were left with little choice, They need a new hospital the women of ireland need a new hospital, it’s a superb design, it’s a wonderful design but the the structure is completely wrong and it’s just unacceptable that the State that our money be given to the Sister’s of Charity to build a hospital worth 300 million.”

O’Rourke: “Your response, Mr Kearns.”

Kearns: “Again this reflects my surprise, I only learnt last night that Dr Boylan intended to appear on Morning Ireland this morning because neither I nor the Master were consulted in any way about this by Dr Boylan who as I previously pointed out is a serving board member of Holles St.”

O’Rourke: “Did he bring any of the concerns to the Board that he outlined this morning?”

Kearns: “Oh yes, throughout this six month negotiating period the negotiating team were reporting back at monthly intervals to the Board and that continued right through to the voting process within the Board and as I’ve indicated there was an overwhelming majority in support of final agreement.”

O’Rourke: “Okay, but as he says the Catholic Church plays a long game, it might be okay for the first few years or so but another chairperson, a wolf in sheep’s clothing may occur.”

Kearns: “Can I answer that in another way. How many vocations do we have in ireland every year? How many nuns are there currently left Is every priest and every nun automatically regarded as suspect or somehow prejudiced in some very negative way, I feel this is really astonishing.”

Mahony: “Sean there’s a triple lock, there’s the Mastership system, there is an independent board, there is an independent company, and there’s the Minister who also holds a special share this means that he guarantees the autonomy and the independence and there are the reserved powers. Can we get real about this, can we look at what will be achieved by the move? At the moment I operate a hospital on Merrion Square, it’s a very beautiful part of Dublin but at three o’clock in the morning when I have a major hemorrhage I do not have direct access to interventional radiology, I do not have access to the whole gamut of surgeons and medical doctors that operate in Vincent’s, when a patient is dying or is critically ill we transfer her in ambulance down Merrion Road to St Vincent’s Hospital ,that will all change and we will be in a campus that will offer a breadth and depth of service that is the future of modern health care, the stand alone model of a maternity hospital delivering tertiary care is not the way forward.”

O’Rourke: “Is Peter Boylan right when he said look you know effectively look you were told if you want your hospital this is how it has to be they have to own it 100%?”

Mahony: “We had to come up with an agreement that protects the integrity of both hospitals On the one hand we require independence to give the care that we want to give and that includes contraception and termination of pregnancy and we have achieved that, we have absolute operational and clinical independence, we also have to integrate into a larger campus, this will be of such enormous benefit to women and no one is looking at what women will achieve here, the access to all of the diagnostics the medicine and surgery. St Vincent’s Hospital and the National Maternity Hospital have worked together for years, about 70% of our doctor appointments are actually shared between the two hospitals, we have collaborated for many years and there are many women alive today because of the collaboration, this is absolutely the way forward to deliver modern 21st century healthcare, it is not the way forward to continue to stay in a dilapidated building that cannot provide the facility for modern care so are we really going to misinform people and are we going to suggest that because we are moving to a campus, it is owned by the nuns, it’s been owned by the nuns since dot, that is factually correct but we will be an independent company operating entirely independently clinically and I think we really need to get behind this hospital and get it built because the risk that women are enduring and the privation and the poor condition that women are enduring in this country is a disgrace we don’t need is misinformation and what we don’t need is scaremongering and what we don’t need is completely inaccurate information and what we don’t need is this attack on the bonus who will not be involved in delivery of gynaecological or neonatal care.”

O’Rourke: “What’s in this for the nuns, Nicholas Kearns, because as it’s being presented across the desk to me this morning they effectively have sold everything the Catholic ethos may stand for in Catholic owned hospitals?”

Kearns: “Well I can’t obviously speak for the nuns but just to go back to finish off the point I was trying to make earlier about the remarks that appeared in paper today from one of the nuns from the order…”

O’Rourke: “Sister Agnes, yes.”

Kearns: “To which Dr Boylan attached so much importance, he mentioned on the radio he only picked up the paper to read this story, it formed the backbone and substance of his interview, I wonder what would he was going to say by way of concerns if he hadn’t read the paper this morning, he was already booked to come on the programme.”

O’Rourke: “Well he obviously had his concerns, you say they were known, that was a particular point that, if you like bolstered his argument that this was something that needed to be treated with the deepest suspicion…”

Kearns: “Yes but he’s putting a particular construction on what was said which I wouldn’t share quite frankly.”

O’Rourke: “We’ve heard about and Kathleen Lynch put the point to Mary Wilson yesterday we’ve heard of things like golden shares before but it didn’t keep Aer Lingus in state ownership, what does it actually mean?”

Kearns: “Well it means effectively that the Minister has power to ensure that these reserved powers are fully enforced and upheld and either side can have resort to the Minister under the Agreement to ensure that these powers are upheld and the reserved powers provide for that intervention with the Minister.”

Mahony: “We really need to balance the actual risk that I experience every single day in my hospital versus all this imagination, all this speculation all this misinformation so I would suggest that we take a long hard look at actual risks that face women and babies every day in this country and I would suggest that they need to be in a sophisticated tertiary referral campus that will provide the breadth and depth of care that patients deserve.”

O’Rourke: “And was consideration given in the course of the negotiations to, you would obviously know this both of you, to the idea of trying to buy the site from the religious order maybe at a nominal price or maybe even asking them to donate it?”

Kearns: “That was never on the table as an element in the discussions.”

O’Rourke: “Right. Any reason why you wouldn’t have sought that.”

Kearns: “Well it was never on the table, let’s put it that way, it was not put on the table or made available to put on the table.”

Mahony: “But I mean the ownership, this is effectively a public hospital, the ownership of a public hospital that is 100% under the control of an independent entity is really not the point to be fighting here, the point is that we provide a hospital for women and babies and that we have 100% control over the clinical services provided in that hospital That is where our focus should be and I suggest the focus continues to be the women and babies in our care.”

O’Rourke: “Are you concerned that this controversy could delay if not derail the plans for that hospital?”

Mahony: “I think if people step back and think about it and think about women and think about infants I think they will come behind this project. For so long now women and babies have had a raw deal in Ireland we have an opportunity now to redress this balance and provide women and babies with a state of the art hospital, why would we not do that?”

O’Rourke: “Can I put to you some of the texts that are coming in: people, the public do not believe automony is or will be vested in the Board, they’re asking why the nuns are so adamant in wanting sole ownership?”

Kearns: “They own the property, they own the property.

O’Rourke: “And then we get a 300 million Euro asset at today’s price built on it and they own that too. Does not that seem you know sort of questionable in your view?”

Mahony: “Hang on, that’s a little simple. The State is the person or if you like the party who will be investing in this hospital and the State will protect their investment in all the usual ways to grant agreements and lease agreements and all the rest of it.”

O’Rourke: “But it does seem extraordinary, you’re going to put a 300 million hospital on this piece of land and you didn’t even seek to buy it?”

Mahony: “The land, the ownership of the land is not my concern, my concern is control of the hospital in which I will be delivering care. I own Holles Street…”

O’Rourke: “But, I don’t mean in any way to trivialize what you do, but if you run a hotel for instance you’re running it or managing it, you’d want to be pretty sure that your control over it was fairly reliable and if you didn’t own the site on which it was built I’m not sure the Bank Manager would be too pleased?”

Mahony: “Sean, that is why you have grant agreements and lease agreements. This is effectively a public hospital so the ownership is slightly moot, the important thing is the services delivered there, the nuns cannot sell the new NMH when it arrives there the nuns will not control the new NMH board and the nuns will not control clinical care that is given to women and infants. Now can we come back to why we are doing this and can we please come back to the risk that faces women and babies in this country every day and can we just be proportionate as to these risks…”

O’Rourke: “Matters have come before you, Nicholas Kearns, and your colleagues on the High Court and above that level as President of the High Court on the Supreme Court as well, on far less sums, and is it possible that down the road now this may be in the land of fantasy or imagination, but it has been suggested that there could be some big American or international service provider that might want to buy St Vincent’s and they would have a constitutional right to sell it and then compensate the Minister at today’s prices?”

Kearns: “Anything’s possible in the future but you could speculate endlessly about what’s going to happen in the future. I mean, I mentioned earlier the declining numbers in religious orders, are there going to be any nuns?”

O’Rourke: “I don’t know if this is an international order but there may be people in Sri Lanka or there may be recruits in the Phillippines.”

Kearns: “If you don’t mind Sean, this just underlines the artificial aspect of the furore that is taking place.”

O’Rourke: “Hold on a minute, you’re talking about an international organization.”

Mahony: “Sean, you’re talking about an independent entity with an independent board, the directors of the Board are charged like any Board with doing the best they can for that company there will be the Mastership system and there is a share held by the Minister and an independent board, there are sufficient safeguards in place to ensure that this is an independent hospital it will not be St Vincent’s hospital it will be an independent hospital delivering maternity gynaecological and neonatal services and the only criteria for that will be excellence in clinical care. The ethos will be excellence in clinical care.”

O’Rourke: “Okay, just one other question because maybe I’ve more immediate concern if 300 million Euros of State of tax payers’ money going in there in terms of who has access I mean will there be equal access for public as well as private patients, will there be special arrangements for private patients?”

Mahony: “Sean. There is no private obstetric hospital in Ireland. We see any patient who comes through the door and we are one of the few hospitals that does not have an excess problem. You may have noticed we don’t have trolleys and we don’t have waiting lists because women deliver their babies and the babies come when the babies come so that’s not possible we have there are peaks and troughs in how we deliver care and actually we have a very complicated…”

O’Rourke: “Will the consultants using this be able to promote private practice using this private practice promoted by the state?”

Mahony: “There is no private obstetric hospital in the country.”

O’Rourke: “There are people who have private practices as genealogists and obstetricians. I mean, will this facility be available to them?”

Mahony: “Of course. The current arrangement tin this country is that there is private care and there is public care and Nothing will change on that, nothing will change on private/public health care until the government changes policy, this hospital is not going to…”

O’Rourke: “So private patients will be advantaged here as against public patients?”

Mahony: “Why?”

O’Rourke: “Well that’s the way the system works, we have a two-tier system.”

Mahony: “Why would they be advantaged In the design of this hospital, in this hospital each patient will have a single room and their own bathroom and that’s really what women need when they have a baby, in Holles Street we have the Merrion wing built by Peter Boylan back in the 1990s for private patients which is significantly nicer than the public arrangements at the moment, in this hospital all women irrespective of whether they are private or public will have the best of facilities and that’s how it should be.”

O’Rourke: “And there will be no advantage in having private health insurance or paying privately?”

Mahony: “That’s not a matter for individuals, that’s a matter for me to make sure that any patient whoever they are who comes through the door of the hospital gets the best possible care and that’s what I’m concerned with.”

O’Rourke: “Okay, well, look, thank you both for coming in, Nicholas Kearns Deputy Chair of the Board of Holles St, Rhona Mahony, Master of Holles St, thank you both for coming in.”

exactly what you just said & I think this has caught them out big time.

I heard Boylan this morning he was clear and careful with his words, he almost sounded like a whistleblower, street-wise.

I think Mahony is caught up in something underhanded here and has been trying to get the thing built for so long now is probably blinded by the type of desperation where she’d sell her granny. at least I really hope that’s what drives her (& not some darker force)

Mahony is just like the rest. Remember this is one of the maternity hospitals where the “masters” spied on pregnant women and racially profiled them and then provided unscientific data to the government to provide the basis for a disgusting and racist referendum that saw kids born here of foreign parents denied Irish citizen ship. If you know where Mahony works, go an take a massive big black Guinness turd on the bonnet of her car.

So typically Irish – whenever women are abused or exploited there’ll be another Irish woman making excuses for the abusers. No, not Breda O’Brien – Rhona Mahony. But hey, she has an expensive hairdo, wears high heels and makes 250KK a year, so she’s a role model for girls and so gets away with it.

You can’t trust religious orders. They’ve spent decades flat out lying and using “mental reservation” to get away with it.. They’re abusers and liars, and have no place in a 21st century medical facility where they’d rather kill women than give them contraceptives.

Look at how many questions they didn’t answer above.
And the reference to the agreement, supposedly overseen by lawyers, but not published.
Publish it. If it’s an agreement, then publish it. No decisions until we, the people that will be paying for it, see the agreement. Is that too much to insist on?

thanks for transcribing this…
couldn’t the National maternity hospital be owned by the nation?
nice dodge at the end.everyone will have a room but only those shelling out a few grand get all the tests and multiple consultations with and delivery by actual gynaecologists and obstetricians.

Don’t let this be turned into a religious issue because sneaky Simon will pull some stunt to keep the show in the road.
No state assets should be given away, particularly to an organisation who profited from slavery.
In fact the monies they used to establish Vincent’s hospital I’m the first place were in all likelihood made from slavery. How can anyone in government condone and actively support this?

Can’t disagree with you there, real. Can I share a sad, but true tale with you which seems ‘off topic’ but actually isn’t? In childhood I suffered from fairly extreme bullying, both in the UK and here at home. I was a tall, strong, kid – but had an unusually sweet and passive nature. Because of this I received beatings that were well beyond ‘childsplay’, resulting in actual damages. Want to hear how the problem was eventually cured (in both countries)? My tormenters eventually hurt me so much that I lost it, and beat the living sh….out of them. We’re still talking about kids here. What happened? Complaints were made to my parents – I got parental hidings! – but guess what? The bullying stopped. I view this as an allegory – Irish People = me. Bullies = Successive Governments and ‘the Golden Circle, which includes the Church’. People power is in its infancy here – keep charging boys.

I’m sorry you had such a tough childhood Sheik, I think many of us can empathize with you on that. I like your allegory in that I have been astonished over the past few years at how passive Irish people are in relation to the BS that this and the previous government have engaged in. With the exception of the water protests the government has had free sailing while presiding over a country with a broken healthcare system, a corrupt police force and a discriminatory education system to name just a few issues. Hopefully this hospital issue will be a wake up call to Irish citizens that they need to be more active in holding this government to account.