I've seen much excellent homebrew on Iyrauroth, the Wyrm of the Peaks, in the Candlekeep Compendiums and other places.

Before I decide which of it to use in my campaign, what to build on and and so forth, I'd like to get an idea if I'm missing any sources.

The Forgotten Realms Wiki article on Iyrauroth has a few nice little nuggets of lore.

Is there any canonical source about Iyrauroth, his descendants, his sister or other relatives, his lairs, his treasure, his deeds or other things that might relate to him that is not referenced on the FR Wiki?

I'm not much good at looking through Ed Greenwood's answers, as the Search function usually only turns up scroll for the whole year, which leaves hours of plodding manual searching. I understand some scribes have access to older answers in a more searchable format and might have an idea whether Ed has given us any lore on Iyrauth and his get between the 6th century DR and Iyrauroth being awakened by the Cult of the Dragon late in the 14th.

Is there any information on whether the other dragons who sought to slay the sixteen younger dragons of 'Iyrauroth's Get' in these centuries managed to get them all or whether some survived into the 1370s DR?

What about Mount Grimmerfang / The Hollow Mountain?

Is there any information on who laired there, if anyone, between the 6th century DR and until Iyrauroth returned there from the Thar around 1370 DR?

I will search through my notes and see if I can find where I got my info from.I do remember there were two Forging the Realms articles dealing with That, one of those dealt with Embrurshaille (Iyrauroth's sister). I don't think you will find any canon answers to what you speak. I had Iyrauroth searching for lots of magic to continue the ritual his sister tried to cast. I also had him practise a form of magic involving the bloodlines of powerful individuals (not a spellcasting type magic more like brewing potions but using individuals as the vials and bloodlines as the ingredients).

I think the Cradle of Monsters was one of the Forging the Realms article

I will search through my notes and see if I can find where I got my info from.

Thanks a lot.

quote:Originally posted by dazzlerdal

I do remember there were two Forging the Realms articles dealing with That, one of those dealt with Embrurshaille (Iyrauroth's sister).

Cool, thanks. I'll see if it was archived like the other one.

quote:Originally posted by dazzlerdal

I don't think you will find any canon answers to what you speak. I had Iyrauroth searching for lots of magic to continue the ritual his sister tried to cast.

Yes, that's likely, though, obviously, he seems to have slept for a lot of centuries.

quote:Originally posted by dazzlerdal

I also had him practise a form of magic involving the bloodlines of powerful individuals (not a spellcasting type magic more like brewing potions but using individuals as the vials and bloodlines as the ingredients).

Well, I'm considering a child or grandchild of Iyrauroth who might have laired in the Hollow Mountain while Iyrauroth slumbered beneath Thar.

If it's one of the original sixteen, it would be someone ancient to a wyrm, at minimum, as it's been 928 years since Iyrauroth and his get of sixteen were involved in the destruction of the Northkeep.

There must be some reason that neither the dwarves heir to Roldilar nor the orcs heirs to Vastar have reclaimed the mountain hold that served as the royal halls for both these kingdoms. Originally, I thought that Iyrauroth had curled up on the great riches that represent the royal treasury (and likely the possessions of a great many noble clans and powerful chiefs) of two kingdoms and had himself a nice, Smaug-like nap, but it seems that he was sleeping beneath the Thar.

So, why isn't there a dwarf hold beneath the Hollow Mountain in the modern Vast?

For that matter, why is it not the home to whichever orc chief is most powerful in the Vast at any given time, to give him an added symbolic significance?

My theory is that something else has claimed the Hollow Mountain, so that treasure hunters, explorers, archaeologists and heirloom seekers tend not to return. Eventually, dwarven elders started discouraging anyone from seeking what lies under the Hollow Moutain, leading to the situation reported in The City of Ravens Bluff, where only a few dwarven elders even know which mountain it is and they refuse to divulge it.

I'd like the halls to have been claimed by a younger dragon, one of the get of Iyrauroth, in his absence, but the reverence and fear felt by all of them toward their elder sire explained why the halls were instantly available when Iyrauroth returned from his slumber under the steppes of Thar.

And I have a theory about what that worthy was doing there all these centuries. S/he was breeding orcs, making a servitor race to rule the Vast in his/her name.

Eh, obviously in Iyrauroth's name if he still lived, honest, Granddad!

I think the Cradle of Monsters was one of the Forging the Realms article

Thanks. I'm not up on 4e and 5e sources, as I didn't have much interest in the distant future of the setting I was playing in. Occasionally, it seems that this causes me to miss a nugget of lore that applies to the 14th century Realms that my games are set in.

Me too. I've expanded and revised the wiki article, no new lore though. I'm not aware of anything more about Iyrauroth prior to 4e, while what comes after is a mystery to me.

I'd like to draw a connection between Iyrauroth and Throstulgrael/Velvet, a young black dragon lairing not too far away in the Flooded Forest, too close not to know of each other.http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/ThrostulgraelIn my game, Velvet's a troublesome younger son or grandson of Iyrauroth, who occasionally harasses a halfgold dragon PC with dragonspawn until I get a chance to use him properly. Iyrauroth might appreciate the PCs dragging him back into line or eliminating his Cult of the Dragon allies. There's an NPC halfblack dragon paladin of Bahamut, a mentor to the PC, who might be one of the brood.

I have the same PCs going to Mount Grimmerfang, but I'm not sure Iyrauroth's arrived yet, since I have other plans for the place.

As for what could have been there, the hanging plot hooks of 1370 DR in The City of Ravens Bluff suggest some stirred-up monsters and orcs, and deepspawn appearing in old ruins. Iyrauroth could've driven out more regular monsters infesting the Hollow Mountain when he arrived at about that time. Or perhaps your orc-breeder is using a deepspawn? :)

I'm not at my sources yet but I'm musing over Iyrauroth again anyway. To get his history you need to look up everything to do with Thar (although that nation was only a side project for him) so get hold of elminsters ecologies and the city of ravensbluff and the two Forging the Realms articles (which I will find tonight).

The short version is as follows.

Embrurshaille lived in the Thar region during the shadowed age of Netheril (and maybe before). She wanted to become more powerful and was working on a ritual to allow this, she was stealing large quantities of magic to fuel the ritual. She cast it, something went horribly wrong (not enough magic) and a huge chunk of land got drained of magic and life creating this great waste known as Thar (it also destroyed tyranthraxus body and turned him into a possessing spirit).

Iyrauroth comes to claim his sisters lake and her notes on the ritual and become obsessed with augmenting himself similarly, so he starts collecting magic, lots of magic.

The over kingdom of Thar is formed and they eventually come into conflict with northkeep. The ogres ask Iyrauroth to help and he agrees to send his children if the ogres give him an annual ransom. Iyrauroth also wanted to cull his troublesome children and get his hands on the flame of the north relic held in northkeep.

Northkeep falls but Thar cannot afford the repayments. Iyrauroth breeds and army of Dragon ogre orcs led by ologh who has the bloodline of the first ogre king of Thar.

Ologh becomes king of Thar and conquered vastar trying to get his hands on the annasherion for Iyrauroth. When it comes time to pay, Iyrauroth turns up and ologh tries to slay him(and nearly does). Iyrauroth spends the next few centuries recuperating.

Thar was only a side project though, a means to get more magic to cast his ritual. I'm pretty certain he has cast this ritual once successfully and his now effectively immortal, immune to the dracorage, and has many unique powers.He wants to cast it again and again to augment his power even more.

I don't know who these 16 at that you refer to but I'd suggest with his progeny that Iyrauroth kills them when they get to a certain age, maybe not overtly killing them but certainly sending them to get something that causes their or covertly releasing details of their whereabouts to adventurers. Iyrauroth will brook no threat to his power and dominion and that includes his children.

I don't think Iyrauroth slumbers like normal dragons. He is beyond normal dragons. The ritual attunes him to the weave (just like all dragons are attunes to the weave and thus get magical abilities, but he is even more attuned). He is not aware of it but I believe he is embarking on a path to becoming a weave anchor like the nether scrolls and the baetith who created them by merging with the weave. So at the moment he is resistant to many magics, has lots of unusual powers and is effectively immortal. He looks like a Dragon but that is just a shell, he has evolved beyond dragons.

Now what is in my grimmerfang. I think you are right and it is one of his children but I think it is the last of his children that he left there centuries ago, ologh.Ologh was of the bloodline of Vorbyx (an elder ogre, what ogres used to be before they were cursed to their current form, like the irda of krynn). He is also of the bloodline of Iyrauroth, and of the bloodline of the orc warlords of vastar. He is or was an incredibly powerful individual, bred and trained to destroy the ogre kingdom of vastar with his draconkin brothers.When Iyrauroth came to claim his treasure from Iyrauroth, ologh stood up to the Dragon (a huge great wyrm) and challenged him to single combat. The titanic duel collapsed the dwarven hall and severely wounded Iyrauroth (and killed ologh).

I think Iyrauroth had to retreat back to Thar and regenerate for a few centuries (something that hadn't happened to him in a long time). Meanwhile ologhs shattered body reanimated as some kind of unkillable undead monster that is trapped in the dwarven hold (the dwarves tried to reclaim it but had to seal it up because of ologh) until he finally slays Iyrauroth and claims the annasherion for himself.

At least those are the ideas I've been working on for Iyrauroth for some time.

I don't know who these 16 at that you refer to but I'd suggest with his progeny that Iyrauroth kills them when they get to a certain age, maybe not overtly killing them but certainly sending them to get something that causes their or covertly releasing details of their whereabouts to adventurers. Iyrauroth will brook no threat to his power and dominion and that includes his children.

Iyrauroth must have learned of his sister's demise in this way, for he almost immediately traveled from afar, with his many young (sixteen sons and daughters at that time), and seized her domain, taking over her many lairs (her own cavern and those of many lesser dragons she'd slain) in the Galenas and elsewhere.

Iyrauroth kept firm control and command over his progeny, and used them as an army, flying and fighting together to enforce Iyrauroth's will and defeat formidable foes. With them, he later destroyed Northkeep, and still later the ogre capital of Tharniir, shattering the ogre realm of Thar.

More than one of Myrmeen Lhal's draconic sources said that many dragons sought to covertly slay various of "Iyrauroth's get," and so reduce this army of dragons, long before the fall of Iyrauroth, so that Iyrauroth would not merely be replaced as commander by his most ruthless offspring. Several of the dragons Lhal spoke with believed that given time enough, Iyrauroth's progeny might well have found a way to harness "the magic still festering in Thar" and increase their own mastery of magic.

Iyrauroth is nowhere noted as destroying his progeny and it is clearly stated that he employs them as instruments of his will.

quote:Originally posted by dazzlerdal

I don't think Iyrauroth slumbers like normal dragons. He is beyond normal dragons. The ritual attunes him to the weave (just like all dragons are attunes to the weave and thus get magical abilities, but he is even more attuned). He is not aware of it but I believe he is embarking on a path to becoming a weave anchor like the nether scrolls and the baetith who created them by merging with the weave. So at the moment he is resistant to many magics, has lots of unusual powers and is effectively immortal. He looks like a Dragon but that is just a shell, he has evolved beyond dragons.

Well, there is no mention anywhere that Iyrauroth has transcended normal dragonic weaknesses and it is canonical in Cult of the Dragon p. 61 that he slumbered beneath the steppes of the Thar for many centuries, until awakened in 1369 DR.

Whether this slumber started in the 6th century DR or somewhat later, however, I have not found any canon confirmation for.

quote:Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Now what is in my grimmerfang. I think you are right and it is one of his children but I think it is the last of his children that he left there centuries ago, ologh.Ologh was of the bloodline of Vorbyx (an elder ogre, what ogres used to be before they were cursed to their current form, like the irda of krynn). He is also of the bloodline of Iyrauroth, and of the bloodline of the orc warlords of vastar. He is or was an incredibly powerful individual, bred and trained to destroy the ogre kingdom of vastar with his draconkin brothers.When Iyrauroth came to claim his treasure from Iyrauroth, ologh stood up to the Dragon (a huge great wyrm) and challenged him to single combat. The titanic duel collapsed the dwarven hall and severely wounded Iyrauroth (and killed ologh).

I think Iyrauroth had to retreat back to Thar and regenerate for a few centuries (something that hadn't happened to him in a long time). Meanwhile ologhs shattered body reanimated as some kind of unkillable undead monster that is trapped in the dwarven hold (the dwarves tried to reclaim it but had to seal it up because of ologh) until he finally slays Iyrauroth and claims the annasherion for himself.

At least those are the ideas I've been working on for Iyrauroth for some time.

I suppose that this isn't impossible.

Note, however, that it is canon that Ologh was consumed by Iyrauroth, so any undead abomination would be a ghost, specter or something similarly incorporeal.

I have to admit I took only the base of canon information and then ran with it.

The fact that Thar and the Vast are not filled with black dragons says to me that something is keeping the numbers under control. Iyrauroth committed large numbers of his kin to the destruction of northkeep and such battles are a perfect means to control the numbers. Such an event was nearly 1000 years ago which means if even a few of his children survived there should be 10 or so great wyrm dragons in the surrounding lands but I can find mention of only one and that appeared during the siege of Ravens Bluff. So I went with Iyrauroth culling his own children when they get too big an powerful (Embrurshaille hated other more powerful dragons being nearby so I expect a similar trait in her brother). But this is just supposition on my part and I am happy with him having a score or more adult dragons but nothing older than a few centuries.

I have a quote that says Iyrauroth slays Ologh and that he died in the jaws but it doesn't say he swallowed him. If I die in the jaws of a shark I might be missing a few chunks but still otherwise be whole and dead. But the manner of his undeath isn't important he was a powerful being and In the case of a violent death I'm expecting a spontaneous unique undead monster.

I had a look through my notes and couldn't find any other canon sources on Iyrauroth. There just isn't that much out there but that's what made him so interesting to me.

The fact that Thar and the Vast are not filled with black dragons says to me that something is keeping the numbers under control. Iyrauroth committed large numbers of his kin to the destruction of northkeep and such battles are a perfect means to control the numbers.

As far as I know, there have been a lot of black dragons in the area. Of course, a lot of them, as with other colours, have been killed in canon events such as the Flight of Dragons, the Time of Troubles and various novel and sourcebook events. Manshoon had a black dragon mount, for example, who was killed in some novel or another.

Of course, the fact that Ironfang Keep is between Thar and the Vast probably has a lot to do with dragons disappearing.

quote:Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Such an event was nearly 1000 years ago which means if even a few of his children survived there should be 10 or so great wyrm dragons in the surrounding lands but I can find mention of only one and that appeared during the siege of Ravens Bluff.

Most great wyrm dragons sleep for longer and longer, through centuries, until they are effectively comatose.

Iyrauroth's many centuries of sleep aren't unusual or even indicative that something happened to him. As he was a great wyrm in 400 DR, he's more than two thousand years old. The unusual thing is that something woke him in 1369 DR and he apparently stuck around instead of sinking back into slumber.

Faerun is presumably full of truly ancient sleeping dragons, slipping deeper and deeper into hazy senility, who may or may not wake up during the Rage (or it may prove too much for their ancient bodies and kill them).

Of the original sixteen, most were probably killed by the dragons mentioned as hunting them down. On the other hand, a clean sweep of them all would be remarkable. I'd expect that 80-90% success rate would be very good for the dragons and that would mean 1-3 of Iyrauroth's get still live.

Most likely one or more of: a) very well hidden, b) extremely far away from where anyone would expect to find them, or c) in a defensible location where not even a powerful dragon can get at them.

quote:Originally posted by dazzlerdal

So I went with Iyrauroth culling his own children when they get too big an powerful (Embrurshaille hated other more powerful dragons being nearby so I expect a similar trait in her brother). But this is just supposition on my part and I am happy with him having a score or more adult dragons but nothing older than a few centuries.

Edit: In light of the fact that canon says that male dragons remain fertile through the wyrm stage of their lives, Iyrauroth would have been infertile by the time he destroyed Northkeep in 400 DR, as he was described as a 'great wyrm' at that time.

That means that in the ordinary course of things, Iyrauroth can only have wyrm or great wyrm offspring, i.e. ones born some time before he became a great wyrm, which also means at some point before 400 DR.

I'm aware that some beings are exceptions to general rules. However, general rules would not exist of everyone was an exception to them. Unless there is a canon statement to the contrary, Iyrauroth is bound by the same constraints on dragonic lifespans and reproduction as other dragons. Not to mention the fact that Iyrauroth was asleep for centuries before 1369 DR, which means that even if he had magical assistance to remain fertile longer, he cannot have very young to adult dragonic offspring, because he was not around to sire any.

If Iyrauroth slumbered from 572 DR (or a century or two later, maybe) to 1369 DR, which the canon sources could be read as suggesting, then he cannot have offspring younger than Old, i.e. 601-800 years old, and that only if he had some magical assistance in siring them.

Any more distant descendants of Iyrauroth, such as grandchildren, great-grandchildren and even further removed descendants, who grew up during the centuries of Iyrauroth's slumber under Thar, will not have been indoctrinated to follow Iyrauroth personally.

Such offspring might have been taught to follow their parent or parents in a similar manner, but given that Iyrauroth's treatment of his get was noted as unusual for black dragons and that his offspring were hunted by other dragons, there are excellent reasons for expecting any offspring his children might have had to have grown up more typical of black dragons.

And for all of their lifetimes, there was no Iyrauroth, except as history told to them by their parents. These descendants would be more likely to avoid Iyrauroth than serve him, now that he has awakened. Especially if they considered his slumber permanent, which it is very likely that they did.

quote:Originally posted by dazzlerdal

I have a quote that says Iyrauroth slays Ologh and that he died in the jaws but it doesn't say he swallowed him. If I die in the jaws of a shark I might be missing a few chunks but still otherwise be whole and dead.

Sharks actually can't really eat people. It would make them sick.

Dragons, however, canonically can and do. Which means that if someone dies in their jaws, it would take something noteworthy to prevent consumption from occurring, in the natural course of things.

If a seal is mentioned as having died in the jaws of a killer whale, the natural assumption is that the seal was eaten. Ditto for dragons and anything smaller than a giant.

I've had a look through all my quotes and I can't find anything that states ologhs parentage so I must have made it up.

I'm certain he is of the blood of Vorbyx which should be pretty powerful in itself.

I reckon I got the idea of Iyrauroth as his parent from a description of the draconic orcs that Iyrauroth used to destroy the ogre kingdom of Thar and also from the dragons of faerun book which mentions a member of the cult of the Dragon cell in the galenas as having a member who is of the blood of Iyrauroth. I just joined all the dots as I saw fit because I wanted to have another practitioner of the new type of magic I created (bloodline magic), although I suspect I read the idea in one of Eds Dragon articles some time ago.

I like the shark analogy, it explains why there aren't many depictions of dragons eating humanoids. We have plenty of instances of dragons keeping livestock or stealing it off humanoids to consume and it seems a good source of conflict between the two race types (that and both have an equal hunger for treasure), but I never hear of dragons farming humanoids or eating entire villages. Perhaps eating intelligent life is unpalatable (much as it would be to humans if there were other sentient lifeforms on earth), perhaps humanoids make them feel sick (too fatty and rich), or maybe they just can't eat too many of them (like rabbit livers) because bits of humanoids are poisonous.

I'm certain he is of the blood of Vorbyx which should be pretty powerful in itself.

Is that from any of the Thar sourcebooks, an article online, Ed, Krashos or your own theory?

quote:Originally posted by dazzlerdal

I reckon I got the idea of Iyrauroth as his parent from a description of the draconic orcs that Iyrauroth used to destroy the ogre kingdom of Thar and also from the dragons of faerun book which mentions a member of the cult of the Dragon cell in the galenas as having a member who is of the blood of Iyrauroth. I just joined all the dots as I saw fit because I wanted to have another practitioner of the new type of magic I created (bloodline magic), although I suspect I read the idea in one of Eds Dragon articles some time ago.

That's fair enough and I'm leaning toward using dragon-blooded orcs in my campaign. I just wanted to read all the relevant sources before I made anything up.

quote:Originally posted by dazzlerdal

I like the shark analogy, it explains why there aren't many depictions of dragons eating humanoids.

Huh, I'd say there's plenty of mentions of it, both in general folklore and in the Realms in specific.

But, granted, humans are really bony, tend to carry inconvenient less-than-edible objects and in general make inferior sources of meat for a large creature than cattle, buffalo, elephants and all the other herbivores of the Shaar and other places.

I reckon I got the idea of Iyrauroth as his parent from a description of the draconic orcs that Iyrauroth used to destroy the ogre kingdom of Thar and also from the dragons of faerun book which mentions a member of the cult of the Dragon cell in the galenas as having a member who is of the blood of Iyrauroth.

Thanks for that. I just realised  the Wyrmsmoke cell is the same cell that woke up Iyrauroth circa 1369 DR (the previously unnamed cell was based north of Glister, in the Galenas, where the Wyrmsmoke cell is now described as being). Wearer of Purple Dalgar, "Blood of Iyrauroth", must have thought he'd be a big man waking up Granddad Iyrauroth and getting him to join the cult, but he had other ideas.

Thanks for that. I just realised  the Wyrmsmoke cell is the same cell that woke up Iyrauroth circa 1369 DR (the previously unnamed cell was based north of Glister, in the Galenas, where the Wyrmsmoke cell is now described as being). Wearer of Purple Dalgar, "Blood of Iyrauroth", must have thought he'd be a big man waking up Granddad Iyrauroth and getting him to join the cult, but he had other ideas.

That's nice.

The Wyrmsmoke cell has dragonic orcs and with Dalgar being called the 'Blood of Iyrauroth', it lends support to the idea that Iyrauroth or his get may have bred with orcs in the Thar.

Now that Iyrauroth has moved hundreds of miles south, to lair in the Hollow Mountain / Mount Grimmerfang, where would the Dragon Cultists concerned with him be based?

In my campaign, I had him get involved with some very important actions of the central leadership of the Cult. Iyrauroth did not accept the leadership of the Wearers of Purple, but he did condescend to ally with them, after a personal appeal by Sammaster First-Speaker, and a promise of certain artifacts and tomes of lore from the Master's Library on Iron Dragon Mountain.

After the dramatic failure of the attack on the Master's Library, Iyrauroth had been seriously wounded and blinded, fighting the archmages Sebastian Silverlocke and Martin MacGreggor (the latter in dragon form), as well as the PCs. He managed to fly off to his (relatively) nearby lair before he slipped into a deep, healing sleep.

I'm wondering who might know where his lair was to be found and try to convince the Wyrm of the Peaks that accepting the 'gift' of the Cult and becoming a Sacred One would cure all his wounds and give him magical vision.

In my campaign, the Wearer of Purple who originally found out about Iyrauroth's secret lair in the Vast, the necromancer Estrella Dreamheart, still lives, but has gone into hiding from the senior leadership, to avoid punishment for her disastrous leadership and strategy in being responsible for the attack on Iron Dragon Mountain.

Of course, with closest dragonic ally slain in the attack and most of her support network being Cult personnel, Estrella might well have determined that Iyrauroth's secret lair was her best potential hiding place, if she thought she could convince the Rage-added great wyrm not to blame her for his crippling wounds.

I know that the young black dragon 'Velvet', in the Flooded Forest, is supported by a Cult of the Dragon cell based either in Calaunt or in Kurth. If there is no canon information to the contrary, I'd prefer Kurth. 'Malachite', the green wyrm, lairs in the forests south of Mulmaster and is supported by a Cult cell in or close to Mulmaster.

I'd guess that the Mulmaster cell was more likely to mount an ambitious operation like trying to make such a truly ancient great wyrm as Iyrauroth into a dracolich. It's bigger, with factions that can have different goals, and it already has made contact with an older dragon, in 'Malachite'. The Flooded Forest cell in Kurth or Calaunt is involved with a much less powerful dragon and probably has limited resources in comparison.

Are there any other nearby Cult of the Dragon cells to the Hollow Mountain / Mount Grimmerfang?

I can only speak of the Vast in 1e, 2e, and 3e, but there are a few intriguing references to Cult activity there. Fortunately I took notes on it all and put the lore up on the wiki.

Circa 1350 DR, the Cult raided a barrow tomb in the Beluar's Hunt hills outside Kurth and disturbed a stag-horned lich. It did not go well for them. Given the proximity to Kurth, I suspect this was Velvet's cell, and might be why its numbers are low.http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Beluar%27s_Hunt

The Arch of Goolgog portal provides easy passage to the Battle of Bones, which lies close to the Cult base at the Well of Dragons. It's a forgotten portal, but they could rediscover it. The Cult wouldn't need a base in the Vast at all, if they can use the portal to cross back and forth.http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Arch_of_Goolgog

Well, I figure the Cult has to have a major base of operations, and since The Vast has no central government, its the perfect place for them to recruit and have 'training camps', and what-not.

Which brings me to this: The brood of Iyrauroth. From what little I see here, he doesn't seem to the type to kill-off 'useful tools', which is how he was using his progeny. I don't understand why his offspring couldn't have dwindled through normal attrition. Aside from adventurers, many were probably lost in attacks against superior foes (several up-and-coming kingdoms all around there, including Impiltur), and you also have the Cult of the dragon 'recruiting' in the region (so maybe a bunch of them became dracoliches), plus, when their 'big Daddy' took his long nap, a lot of them probably decided to seek their fortunes elsewhere (since normally, dragons don't all share a territory like that). Many of them probably went very far away - I don't know why you would think a 50-ton intelligent, flying engine of destruction needs to stay anywhere. It could very well be that half the existing black dragons in Faerūn (and beyond) could be descendants of his, just spread out all over.

Plus, other dragons would be a big problem. IIRC, there is a family of whites living in the Glacier of the White Worm, and just to the north on the great glacier there are many white dragons, not to mention blues and a few others. Once the leader was out-of-the-picture for awhile, and they fell to squabbling (as all dragons would), they would have made for easy-picking for older, more powerful dragons around.

And I am sure the Ogres themselves (not to mention other humanoids) probably put a dent in their numbers when they took over to begin with. Most ogres may be too stupid to do that, but the Thar ogres were bigger and smarter - superior members of their race. They built a kingdom, after all. They would have put up a good fight against dragons (and there are tribes of frost giants in the area as well, and giants love to fight dragons).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Well, I figure the Cult has to have a major base of operations, and since The Vast has no central government, its the perfect place for them to recruit and have 'training camps', and what-not.

True, in so far as the Cult needs wilderness lairs for its bandits or dragon-blooded humanoids, the Vast seems a fairish place to put them. Of course, they already have such lairs in the nearby Moonsea north and, of course, in Vaasa (though impassable mountains separate those from the Vast).

quote:Originally posted by Markustay

Which brings me to this: The brood of Iyrauroth. From what little I see here, he doesn't seem to the type to kill-off 'useful tools', which is how he was using his progeny. I don't understand why his offspring couldn't have dwindled through normal attrition. Aside from adventurers, many were probably lost in attacks against superior foes (several up-and-coming kingdoms all around there, including Impiltur), and you also have the Cult of the dragon 'recruiting' in the region (so maybe a bunch of them became dracoliches), plus, when their 'big Daddy' took his long nap, a lot of them probably decided to seek their fortunes elsewhere (since normally, dragons don't all share a territory like that). Many of them probably went very far away - I don't know why you would think a 50-ton intelligent, flying engine of destruction needs to stay anywhere. It could very well be that half the existing black dragons in Faerūn (and beyond) could be descendants of his, just spread out all over.

Plus, other dragons would be a big problem. IIRC, there is a family of whites living in the Glacier of the White Worm, and just to the north on the great glacier there are many white dragons, not to mention blues and a few others. Once the leader was out-of-the-picture for awhile, and they fell to squabbling (as all dragons would), they would have made for easy-picking for older, more powerful dragons around.

And I am sure the Ogres themselves (not to mention other humanoids) probably put a dent in their numbers when they took over to begin with. Most ogres may be too stupid to do that, but the Thar ogres were bigger and smarter - superior members of their race. They built a kingdom, after all. They would have put up a good fight against dragons (and there are tribes of frost giants in the area as well, and giants love to fight dragons).

I agree that Iyrauroth seems to have no motivation even implied in canon to slay his own get, at least not while they continue to obey him as his loyal tools.

I note that according to Myrmeen Lhal's research in Ed Greenwood's Forging the Realms article where a lot of the detail on Iyrauroth's early career is from, many other dragons sought to exterminate Iyrauroth's get, to weaken his power base. So add that to the above factors.

I can only speak of the Vast in 1e, 2e, and 3e, but there are a few intriguing references to Cult activity there. Fortunately I took notes on it all and put the lore up on the wiki.

Circa 1350 DR, the Cult raided a barrow tomb in the Beluar's Hunt hills outside Kurth and disturbed a stag-horned lich. It did not go well for them. Given the proximity to Kurth, I suspect this was Velvet's cell, and might be why its numbers are low.http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Beluar%27s_Hunt

The Arch of Goolgog portal provides easy passage to the Battle of Bones, which lies close to the Cult base at the Well of Dragons. It's a forgotten portal, but they could rediscover it. The Cult wouldn't need a base in the Vast at all, if they can use the portal to cross back and forth.http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Arch_of_Goolgog

I'll especially look into the Arch of Goolgog connection to the Well of Dragons, as that could be a very nice solution for the Followers of the Scaly Way trapped in Iyrauroth's lair.

Also, Asbras Hlumin sounds like a nice encounter. I imagine he's heard about Iyrauroth, but doesn't know how to find the lair. So he's waiting around in King's Reach trying to spot Cultists or someone else who seems to be headed there.

I think that at least one tribe of draconic humanoids ought to live there. I'm debating whether they ought to be orcs, hobgoblins or bugbears.

And, as the progenitor of the tribe of draconic humanoids, one of Iyrauroth's get is still living, hiding in the Hollow Mountain. S/he would be at least of wyrm age, by now, and is a bit of recluse, perhaps even to the point of agoraphobia.

What I know about Iyrauroth from canon sources is that he had already become a great wyrm in 451 DR, which makes him over 2,000 years old in 1373 DR. That means that he has spent a lot of time slumbering in the last centuries, but it might also mean that he's more powerful than a younger great wyrm would be.

Iyrauroth's sister Embrurshaile was magically powerful beyond the standard dragon, but we do not know to what extent, if any, her brother shared her magical might.

By the normal 3e/3.5 rules (which I'm using as short-hand for scribes here, not as the actual rules system at my table), Iyrauroth will know two 7th level spells and his get will know two 6th level spells. The highest level spells known by the dragons are kind of defining for their spellcasting abilities and threat. Does anyone have ideas?

From the feeling I get from the isolated mentions of Iyrauroth in the few sources he appears, I think he ought to be very good at keeping hidden, defending lairs and avoiding other dragons who are hunting him and his get. He probably ought to be fighting above his weight class in duels against other dragons, as otherwise it would not make much sense for such a wide variety of dragons to fear him and his offspring.

I think that his feat selection ought to be spread between metamagic feats that allow him to hide his lair for long periods even from advanced scrying and then combat feats primarily useful against other large, flying creatures. He doesn't really need feats to allow him to maximise his slaying capability against hordes of humanoids, largely because as a great wyrm dragon, Iyrauroth doesn't need any assistance in eating his fill from masses of humanoids.

3rd Ed had several different ways to make dragons of great age more than "just" great wyrms. Even 2nd Ed. had a couple (admittedly less interesting options). I'd suggest looking through that material and using one of the pre-designed templates.

3rd Ed had several different ways to make dragons of great age more than "just" great wyrms. Even 2nd Ed. had a couple (admittedly less interesting options). I'd suggest looking through that material and using one of the pre-designed templates.

I can easily make Iyrauroth more powerful in some way than 'just' a great wyrm. What I am looking for are opinions on a) whether he should be, in any way, different from 'mere' great wyrms, and b) How he has chosen to focus his learning, spellcasting and martial abilities in comparison with other wyrms of his age.

As an unmodified great wyrm black dragon, under D&D rules, he has something like 13 feats. How he spends them makes a major difference to what he can do, magically, martially and otherwise.

In GURPS, I'm not actually going to stat Iyrauroth with D&D Feats, but it's a guideline as to how much extra stuff other than his size, strength and being the equivalent of a 15th level Sorcerer to give him. Some D&D style Feats are just skills in GURPS, some are Advantages and others are super Powers. Yet others are combat options available to everyone, in which case one might reflect a character who has that Feat in D&D by making him slightly more skilled at a combat style which makes frequent use of that option.

As I said, I read the sources on Iyrauroth, slight as they are, as indicating that despite many great dragons considering him and his get a thread, he was not destroyed. As he is not especially famous for his ferocity in battle against humanoids*, I'm guessing that this means that he is cunning and knows a lot of magic that help him hide and secure his resting places.

*We know he slew Ologh the Overking of Vastar, but any great wyrm ought to be able to slay a single humanoid, no matter how politically powerful. Eating a king is evidence of royal tastes, not necessarily the ability to destroy armies of humanoids with ease, at least no more ease than any other great wyrm.

I'd suggest having him have a connection to an older timeline of the Realms. Associate him somehow with Netheril, Jhaamdath, Imaskar, etc. So much mystery, intrigue, and history with those now fallen nations. Well, I guess Netheril is back, but you know what I mean.

Best regards,

quote:Originally posted by Icelander

quote:Originally posted by The Masked Mage

3rd Ed had several different ways to make dragons of great age more than "just" great wyrms. Even 2nd Ed. had a couple (admittedly less interesting options). I'd suggest looking through that material and using one of the pre-designed templates.

I can easily make Iyrauroth more powerful in some way than 'just' a great wyrm. What I am looking for are opinions on a) whether he should be, in any way, different from 'mere' great wyrms, and b) How he has chosen to focus his learning, spellcasting and martial abilities in comparison with other wyrms of his age.

As an unmodified great wyrm black dragon, under D&D rules, he has something like 13 feats. How he spends them makes a major difference to what he can do, magically, martially and otherwise.

In GURPS, I'm not actually going to stat Iyrauroth with D&D Feats, but it's a guideline as to how much extra stuff other than his size, strength and being the equivalent of a 15th level Sorcerer to give him. Some D&D style Feats are just skills in GURPS, some are Advantages and others are super Powers. Yet others are combat options available to everyone, in which case one might reflect a character who has that Feat in D&D by making him slightly more skilled at a combat style which makes frequent use of that option.

As I said, I read the sources on Iyrauroth, slight as they are, as indicating that despite many great dragons considering him and his get a thread, he was not destroyed. As he is not especially famous for his ferocity in battle against humanoids*, I'm guessing that this means that he is cunning and knows a lot of magic that help him hide and secure his resting places.

*We know he slew Ologh the Overking of Vastar, but any great wyrm ought to be able to slay a single humanoid, no matter how politically powerful. Eating a king is evidence of royal tastes, not necessarily the ability to destroy armies of humanoids with ease, at least no more ease than any other great wyrm.