Comments on: Missionary Philistinismhttp://www.nine-moons.com/?p=123
Fri, 26 Jun 2015 09:36:09 +0000hourly1http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.1By: alamojaghttp://www.nine-moons.com/?p=123&cpage=1#comment-334
alamojagWed, 13 Jul 2005 21:20:33 +0000http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=123#comment-334One way that learning a little about the culture helped me in Korea was the idea of ancients writing on sheets of precious metal. in some cultures, including much of the US, that idea is far fetched. In Korea, there is a collection of writings on precious metal in the National Museum.
One way that learning a little about the culture helped me in Korea was the idea of ancients writing on sheets of precious metal. in some cultures, including much of the US, that idea is far fetched. In Korea, there is a collection of writings on precious metal in the National Museum.
]]>By: Steve (FSF)http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=123&cpage=1#comment-333
Steve (FSF)Mon, 11 Jul 2005 00:04:12 +0000http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=123#comment-333Rusty and Steve H,
Thanks guys. Perhaps I am overstating things, but I really don't think so. Rather than threadjack, I'll draft a post for Mormon Open Forum tonight.Rusty and Steve H,
Thanks guys. Perhaps I am overstating things, but I really don’t think so. Rather than threadjack, I’ll draft a post for Mormon Open Forum tonight.
]]>By: Steve Hhttp://www.nine-moons.com/?p=123&cpage=1#comment-332
Steve HSun, 10 Jul 2005 09:47:28 +0000http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=123#comment-332I think the big thing I agree with here is the recurring comment about where we draw lines. I've lived in Hawaii for 2 years. I've spent a good deal of time since I've been here trying to read about Hawaiian culture. I've learned some of the language. Despite this, I can still do some dumb things in inter-cultural situations. There's just a lot to know and very little time to know it. Ideally, we'd have more native missionaries who really know the places they are serving, but we don't for now, so we make do.
The other consideration is that most 19-year-olds are not going to read Borge or anyone else. And if they do, it's not really going to raise awareness all by itself. When I teach, for instance, Things Fall Apart, by Chinua Achebe, to a class of about 20 students, perhaps 2/3 will read the book if I quiz them and hound them, and that's quite a short novel. Another third will simply assume that the book is interpretable in terms of their own cultural framework. Others will misinterpret the work in other ways because they just aren't trained in reading. A few will really get it--and by that I mean they will really latch on to the idea that they are dealing with something substantially different from what they are used to--from what they know. Of course, we could intensely train them for the two years, and in the end, most of them would much better understand the culture. This, however, would be a substantial dsitraction, I think.
Steve (FSF)
Do you know when you use words like "don’t give a rat’s ass" about people that your audience cares about, you generally turn them off and they don't listen you you? Just a rhetorical tip.I think the big thing I agree with here is the recurring comment about where we draw lines. I’ve lived in Hawaii for 2 years. I’ve spent a good deal of time since I’ve been here trying to read about Hawaiian culture. I’ve learned some of the language. Despite this, I can still do some dumb things in inter-cultural situations. There’s just a lot to know and very little time to know it. Ideally, we’d have more native missionaries who really know the places they are serving, but we don’t for now, so we make do.
The other consideration is that most 19-year-olds are not going to read Borge or anyone else. And if they do, it’s not really going to raise awareness all by itself. When I teach, for instance, Things Fall Apart, by Chinua Achebe, to a class of about 20 students, perhaps 2/3 will read the book if I quiz them and hound them, and that’s quite a short novel. Another third will simply assume that the book is interpretable in terms of their own cultural framework. Others will misinterpret the work in other ways because they just aren’t trained in reading. A few will really get it–and by that I mean they will really latch on to the idea that they are dealing with something substantially different from what they are used to–from what they know. Of course, we could intensely train them for the two years, and in the end, most of them would much better understand the culture. This, however, would be a substantial dsitraction, I think.
Steve (FSF)
Do you know when you use words like “don’t give a rat’s ass” about people that your audience cares about, you generally turn them off and they don’t listen you you? Just a rhetorical tip.
]]>By: NFlandershttp://www.nine-moons.com/?p=123&cpage=1#comment-331
NFlandersSun, 10 Jul 2005 03:21:04 +0000http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=123#comment-331Well, I totally agree with everything you just said, Geoff. I agree that the cultural part isn't the most important element of missionary preparation, just the most neglected.
I also agree with your point about the social skills of 19-year-olds (see the first two sentences of the original post). These kids need all the help we can give them (I know I sure did).Well, I totally agree with everything you just said, Geoff. I agree that the cultural part isn’t the most important element of missionary preparation, just the most neglected.

I also agree with your point about the social skills of 19-year-olds (see the first two sentences of the original post). These kids need all the help we can give them (I know I sure did).

]]>By: Geoff Jhttp://www.nine-moons.com/?p=123&cpage=1#comment-330
Geoff JSun, 10 Jul 2005 03:03:00 +0000http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=123#comment-330I actually didn't have any objections to your ideas in the post, Ned. As RW and John C. noted, some good local reading can be very helpful. I was responding more to the general implication that the missionary committee of the church was dropping the ball by not putting a lot more effort into culturally training the missionary force. Cultural training is important, but I suspect we would all agre that it is not the <i>most important</i> thing a missionary needs training on.
I might add that <i>a lot</i> of these missionaries are socially retarded back home as well. (If you don't believe me have the missionaries over for dinner -- odds are pretty high you'll get at least one well-meaning social oaf.) Why should we expect them to be suddenly socially graceful in a foreign culture?I actually didn’t have any objections to your ideas in the post, Ned. As RW and John C. noted, some good local reading can be very helpful. I was responding more to the general implication that the missionary committee of the church was dropping the ball by not putting a lot more effort into culturally training the missionary force. Cultural training is important, but I suspect we would all agre that it is not the most important thing a missionary needs training on.

I might add that a lot of these missionaries are socially retarded back home as well. (If you don’t believe me have the missionaries over for dinner — odds are pretty high you’ll get at least one well-meaning social oaf.) Why should we expect them to be suddenly socially graceful in a foreign culture?

]]>By: NFlandershttp://www.nine-moons.com/?p=123&cpage=1#comment-329
NFlandersSun, 10 Jul 2005 02:44:58 +0000http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=123#comment-329I think we'll have to agree to disagree, Geoff. The point isn't to "impress locals," it's to more fully understand and engage with the people. It's about learning to respect and love the culture and the people (which I suspect is a big problem in a lot of foreign missions).
The Lord may use the weak and simple, but that doesn't mean we send missionaries out with no language training. There's nothing wrong with preparation.
The bottom line for me is that there are too many missionaries out there who may love the people they directly teach, but have no respect for the culture. Maybe I'm wrong and this is merely a Latin American mission phenomenon, but I doubt it. It is my contention that we can help this through education, and help the missionaries become better. I think we can all agree on that goal, at least.I think we’ll have to agree to disagree, Geoff. The point isn’t to “impress locals,” it’s to more fully understand and engage with the people. It’s about learning to respect and love the culture and the people (which I suspect is a big problem in a lot of foreign missions).

The Lord may use the weak and simple, but that doesn’t mean we send missionaries out with no language training. There’s nothing wrong with preparation.

The bottom line for me is that there are too many missionaries out there who may love the people they directly teach, but have no respect for the culture. Maybe I’m wrong and this is merely a Latin American mission phenomenon, but I doubt it. It is my contention that we can help this through education, and help the missionaries become better. I think we can all agree on that goal, at least.

]]>By: kristen jhttp://www.nine-moons.com/?p=123&cpage=1#comment-328
kristen jSun, 10 Jul 2005 02:38:27 +0000http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=123#comment-328Ok, so you don't want to do an inter-library loan? Here's a few more ideas for you; 1. Find some local Argentinians (there is often a local club)and pick their brain for a few hours. 2. I know that the Argentine mission is a rare one so this might be difficult (note the sarcasm) but you just might be able to find someone in your ward/stake who has gone on a mission there. I'm sure they would be more than happy to bore you to tears about the Argentine people and culture.
I'm not against continual learning and I know that I'm not going to learn everything I need to know about a native people until I interact with them but it just seems silly to pass the buck on this to the missionary committee, mission presidents, etc when there is so much that a missionary can do on his own to prepare himself.
Someone earlier talked about how the GA's aren't concerned with fixing the problem with jerk missionaries. Don't you remember the letter that went out to the church that basically said, if you're a jackass just stay home?Ok, so you don’t want to do an inter-library loan? Here’s a few more ideas for you; 1. Find some local Argentinians (there is often a local club)and pick their brain for a few hours. 2. I know that the Argentine mission is a rare one so this might be difficult (note the sarcasm) but you just might be able to find someone in your ward/stake who has gone on a mission there. I’m sure they would be more than happy to bore you to tears about the Argentine people and culture.

I’m not against continual learning and I know that I’m not going to learn everything I need to know about a native people until I interact with them but it just seems silly to pass the buck on this to the missionary committee, mission presidents, etc when there is so much that a missionary can do on his own to prepare himself.

Someone earlier talked about how the GA’s aren’t concerned with fixing the problem with jerk missionaries. Don’t you remember the letter that went out to the church that basically said, if you’re a jackass just stay home?

]]>By: Geoff Jhttp://www.nine-moons.com/?p=123&cpage=1#comment-327
Geoff JSun, 10 Jul 2005 02:20:08 +0000http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=123#comment-327I'm with Don on the overall subject (and of course Steve FSF is dead wrong). The purpose of a mission is to preach faith in Christ, repentance and baptism -- not to impress locals with cultural skills. If there were racists in Roasted Tomatoes' mission, isn't that a problem with charity rather than cultural training? If a missionary doesn't truly love the people he teaches no amount of cultural training or savvy will make up for that. However, if a missionary is humble and preaches by the spirit and loves the people, no number of cultural missteps will impede the success of that missionary. That is why the focus of the missionary program is on the inner missionary and not the outer missionary. God makes it clear that he wants <a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/1/23#23" rel="nofollow">the weak and simple</a> as his missionaries – that is why we send out our 19 year old goofballs in the first place. If God wanted slick and culturally savvy missionaries he wouldn’t send this bunch out.I’m with Don on the overall subject (and of course Steve FSF is dead wrong). The purpose of a mission is to preach faith in Christ, repentance and baptism — not to impress locals with cultural skills. If there were racists in Roasted Tomatoes’ mission, isn’t that a problem with charity rather than cultural training? If a missionary doesn’t truly love the people he teaches no amount of cultural training or savvy will make up for that. However, if a missionary is humble and preaches by the spirit and loves the people, no number of cultural missteps will impede the success of that missionary. That is why the focus of the missionary program is on the inner missionary and not the outer missionary. God makes it clear that he wants the weak and simple as his missionaries – that is why we send out our 19 year old goofballs in the first place. If God wanted slick and culturally savvy missionaries he wouldn’t send this bunch out.
]]>By: NFlandershttp://www.nine-moons.com/?p=123&cpage=1#comment-326
NFlandersSun, 10 Jul 2005 02:01:45 +0000http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=123#comment-326Kristen, while your suggestion of an inter-library loan is interesting, I don't think it's very realistic. The mission sends us a list of the things we need. Why can't it tell us the name of a book we all should read before showing up? I think your insistence that we should learn everything we need to know before showing up at the MTC (with no guidance, no less) is a little strange. We're there to study. Let us study culture and literature as well as the scriptures.
Also, it would help to read a lot of this stuff in the native language, something we can't do until we've been out in the field a while. I think the learning process should be a continual one.Kristen, while your suggestion of an inter-library loan is interesting, I don’t think it’s very realistic. The mission sends us a list of the things we need. Why can’t it tell us the name of a book we all should read before showing up? I think your insistence that we should learn everything we need to know before showing up at the MTC (with no guidance, no less) is a little strange. We’re there to study. Let us study culture and literature as well as the scriptures.

Also, it would help to read a lot of this stuff in the native language, something we can’t do until we’ve been out in the field a while. I think the learning process should be a continual one.

]]>By: kristen jhttp://www.nine-moons.com/?p=123&cpage=1#comment-325
kristen jSun, 10 Jul 2005 01:29:37 +0000http://www.nine-moons.com/?p=123#comment-325Roasted Tomatoes, You're right, if the missionaries are acting like doofeses then the mission president should have some type of education for the missionaries.
Your other point about not having study time is pretty weak. You will find time for what is important to you. Maybe you can just go late to the 3rd farewell beach bonfire with your high school buddies.
As for where to go for info, in the pre-internet age you could write, call, get in touch with embassies, UN etc. I did this for a high school project.
Now with the internet not only is it quick but there is a ton of information out there. I was going to go to Zimbabwe and found a lot of information from a British website about behaviors, travel areas, etc that weren't ok. I found that in about 2 minutes of research.
Of course there is always your local library, if they don't have the info you need they can order it from another library.
There is so much information out there I just think it's a cop out to lay the blame at the feet of any one but the misbehaving missionary.Roasted Tomatoes, You’re right, if the missionaries are acting like doofeses then the mission president should have some type of education for the missionaries.

Your other point about not having study time is pretty weak. You will find time for what is important to you. Maybe you can just go late to the 3rd farewell beach bonfire with your high school buddies.

As for where to go for info, in the pre-internet age you could write, call, get in touch with embassies, UN etc. I did this for a high school project.

Now with the internet not only is it quick but there is a ton of information out there. I was going to go to Zimbabwe and found a lot of information from a British website about behaviors, travel areas, etc that weren’t ok. I found that in about 2 minutes of research.

Of course there is always your local library, if they don’t have the info you need they can order it from another library.

There is so much information out there I just think it’s a cop out to lay the blame at the feet of any one but the misbehaving missionary.