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I know what I call internal. I just don't know what you guys are calling internal. Actually I'm not sure if you guys know what you are calling internal.

I will Gladly go see Dan if he's ever with in 300 miles of me. I think it would be fun, and trust me I'll report what happens.

Chris
You can do what I do? You've never met me, or have seen me move.
I take it you can do this
Stand with your feet parallel knees locked, amrms straight out in front of you with the elbows locked then have someone meet your hands while they stand in hanmi and have them push and try to walk forward, and -they can't even lift a foot. Have them try and throw you and depending on their level either can hardly move themselves or can't even lift a foot?
Resist a 200 pound man pushing horizontally and upward on your chest while you stand there not using any technique whatsoever?
Have sandans and better in Judo try to throw you while you stand there and not do anything to counter them but they can't throw you?
Knock people out with single punches
Please understand these are not done using any technique yet.
The power and skills in martial movement go up from there.

I watched your video. The men there exhibited no structure that I could see. In fact their movement showed a structure that was disconnected and highly compromised. I take it that the men in the video's on your site were your new students?
A man with actual internal structure would simply never move that way.

All due respect Chris, you entered in the discussion by stating it was likely you can do what I do.
If that was you in those videos, then you clearly have no physical understanding of structure yet, much less internal power in movement. You are doing Aikido on an external level. But I could then see why you think baseball and any other trained athlete has "great" internal power.
Again no disrespect, But unfortunately, it also clearly demonstrates that you don't know what you're talking about in these discussions yet.

Chris
You can do what I do? You've never met me, or have seen me move.
I take it you can do this
Stand with your feet parallel knees locked, amrms straight out in front of you with the elbows locked then have someone meet your hands while they stand in hanmi and have them push and try to walk forward, and -they can't even lift a foot. Have them try and throw you and depending on their level either can hardly move themselves or can't even lift a foot?
Resist a 200 pound man pushing horizontally and upward on your chest while you stand there not using any technique whatsoever?
Have sandans and better in Judo try to throw you while you stand there and not do anything to counter them but they can't throw you?
Knock people out with single punches
Please understand these are not done using any technique yet.
The power and skills in martial movement go up from there.

Think I have to agree with Dan. Many athletes have only a basic level of mind and body coordination. Sports psychologists I'm told often say things to sprinters such as 'think of the finish line' rather than where you are now on the track. This is pretty much the same as saying 'extend ki' in Tohei terminology. Why would they need to be told to do these things by psychologists if they were already doing them?

An interesting question for Dan. When you have this 200lb man push on your chest. Does he place his hand there and then push? Or do you allow him to walk three or four steps with 'intent' and then push your chest? Do you allow a slow steady push or is a good hard shove permitted? All valid questions I feel...

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr

Stand with your feet parallel knees locked, amrms straight out in front of you with the elbows locked then have someone meet your hands while they stand in hanmi and have them push and try to walk forward, and -they can't even lift a foot. Have them try and throw you and depending on their level either can hardly move themselves or can't even lift a foot?

Resist a 200 pound man pushing horizontally and upward on your chest while you stand there not using any technique whatsoever?

Honestly if what you guys think you are doing is so different and so powerful, why wouldn't top level athletes be doing it?

I'm not saying that what you are doing doesn't work. and I'm not saying it's not good. I'm just saying it's not unique, and not that uncommon.

However if you guys are talking about special tricks of leverage, and special little chi/ki "tests". And some breathing exercises and making chi circle your dan tien. Then no, top level athletes probably don't do/know those things. They probably don't know them because there are more clear and effective ways to gain the same things you are gaining.

Chris,
You really need to get out more.You simply are wrong in this. What is being talked about here is different and it is clear that you haven't trained with anyone who is operating on this level or you wouldn't be saying these things. This intends no disrespect but it's apparent from your posts that you don't know. I looked at the video you posted and, while the practice is useful, there's no evidence of solid hara, no real aiki going on there. Denying what is being discussed here and hanging on to your previously developed opinions will not allow you to get better.

I'm confused (but that is my perpetual state). Is MA about some some static body mechanic tricks, and why are they so hyped up in some 'internal' camps?

Justin,
I have to chime in here... martial arts isn't about tricks... but what is being discussed are not tricks, they are demonstrations. What is being demonstrated is the foundation for technique. If you have this foundation your techniques have tremendous power with seemingly little effort.

There seems to be little point in these discussions to have and endless doubting going on by people who have no idea about what is being discussed. It's just like the endless talk about Systema by idiots on Bullshido who endless opinions but no experience. When invited to come play, they say no because its fake and not worth their time... so they continue endlessly to maintain its fake without any experience of it.

I had a great friend at the first expo whom I encountered in the hall at one point. He was all in a huff and said that he had walked out of Angier's class becaues it was all bull****. I basically ordered him back in there with the express instruction to get his butt into the front row and not leave until he personally had gotten his hands on Angier Sensei. A couple of hours later he said to me, "Oh, thank you. You saved me from making a real ass out of myself."

To some extent these discussions illustrate the points being made by the "internal guys". When you can have a discussion with a bunch of Aikido folks and there are a substantial number who seem unaware of what these internal skills even are.... it's an indication that there's a lot of Aikido out there that's not very good very good and people simply haven't any idea what this stuff feels like. If they had, we wouldn't be having these discussions and Dan could stop worrying that Aikido people don't believe him.

We need to get past the "doubting Thomas" stuff and get to the who's got these skills, can they teach them, and how do I get access? stage of the discussion.

We need to get past the "doubting Thomas" stuff and get to the who's got these skills, can they teach them, and how do I get access? stage of the discussion.

I don't doubt. But I have to disagree with you in some respects. My opinion has always been that this stuff is present in a lot more aikido than many naysayers give credit. Including yourself.

Ki Society has them they are aikido. Ki Society Internationale (split off from Ki Soc in Europe), Ki federation of Great Britain led by Ken Williams, the longest serving aikido teacher in the UK. Aikido Yuishinkai under Koretoshi Maruyama Sensei (was the heir apparent to Tohei Sensei until he resigned in the early 90s). In addition to these there are a number of other independent ki soc derived organisations based in the US I forget the names of.

There are also people in the aikikai who were formerly students of Koichi Tohei (he was the chief instructor after all). Not to mention Yoshinkan. In the book Angry White Pyjamas IIRC Twigger descibes a senior Yoshinkan instructor who had 'mastered the secrets of aiki' and could be held by two ukes who were unable to lift him from the ground. This description was of what I would think of as a low-ish level weight underside ki test, i know it's lowish level because I can do it and I'm not a great master by a long stretch.

Also, there are people who post around here like Dan Harden and Mike Sigman who know what they're talking about, I'm sure there are many others on the fringes of aikido as well as within the art itself.

My previous question for Dan (in the previous post) was important because it relates to the various levels of 'ki tests' that exist in Koichi Tohei derived teaching. I asked him those questions because they will explain what it is he does (and others have witnessed him doing so I quite happily believe them and him), I'm guessing from his descriptions and those of others that it sounds like he's doing stuff at the equivalent level of shoden or maybe chuden in ki development (maybe higher it's not possible to say without meeting him), but that he applies it in different ways than are typically done in ki society circles (i.e. aikido waza, whereas Dan probably does Vale Tudo type stuff), and is probably in a lot better physical shape than many aikidoka (physical fitness and strength makes a difference, but not like you're likely to think it would IMHO).

Think I might have made it onto Dan's ignore list though

Regards

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr

Ki Society has them they are aikido. Ki Society Internationale (split off from Ki Soc in Europe), Ki federation of Great Britain led by Ken Williams, the longest serving aikido teacher in the UK. Aikido Yuishinkai under Koretoshi Maruyama Sensei (was the heir apparent to Tohei Sensei until he resigned in the early 90s). In addition to these there are a number of other independent ki soc derived organisations based in the US I forget the names of.

Oh, I was wondering where all their Europe dojo were. KNK Internationale, that's an important one to remember.

Other lineages that trace back to Tohei that I know of include Kokikai and Seidokan, and Suenaka-Ha.

Also Shin Budo Kai (maybe?). Imaizumi sensei is a direct student of K.Tohei sensei but I don't know if he kept ki-development in his curriculum.

One day I might compile a big list of all these Ki-based aikido ryuha... and either update wikipedia with it or put it on some public website.... and save another newbie the hours of bewilderment that I had to go through grokking all these ryuha.

One day I might compile a big list of all these Ki-based aikido ryuha... and either update wikipedia with it or put it on some public website.... and save another newbie the hours of bewilderment that I had to go through grokking all these ryuha.

Please feel encouraged to add to what's already in the AikiWiki here, if you wish:

Dan,
Where are you videos? I know I know, what you do is too secret. David Copperfield can do some amazing things too, but you never hear him talk about chi.

Ledyard.
You can check my teachers. They speak for themselves.

I hear lots of talk from all of you, but sure can't find an evidence of what you do. I put myself out there, because I believe in what I do. What do you believe in...besides inner net forums??

Actually, neither does Dan...
If you bothered to actually read the posts you could see Mike definining "Qi" as simply proxies for different physical and mental skills.
But even within those physical and mental skills you haven't said anything that suggests you understand what they are.

Care to comment on the quote I took from Dan? It should be fairly simple stuff, especially for a guy of your caliber

Dan,
Where are you videos? I know I know, what you do is too secret. David Copperfield can do some amazing things too, but you never hear him talk about chi.
I hear lots of talk from all of you, but sure can't find an evidence of what you do. I put myself out there, because I believe in what I do. What do you believe in...besides inner net forums??

Chris
I am certainly out there. In fact more than I have ever been. I just did another mini-seminar with visitors from right here at good ol Aikiweb. I keep doing them and showing things to folks interested in trainining. We're having lots of fun and getting in good aiki training.
Hope you are too.
Sorry I'm not a video guy.
So far here's what I see though

Internal arts as Aiki
My point has been consistent that these skills are the cornerstone of all that is aiki. I have demonstrated this to many who did not know me and did not agree. Most-just like yourself from right here.

1. Just about every person has taken the time to write back saying the same things. That the training is relevant to "their" Aikido. With most stating clearly it IS Aikido
2. Most have been ignored outright
3. Some have been insulted as acholytes
4. No one not one has been directly asked about how it relates to Aikido
5. There isn't much a person can really say is there. You'd have to now tell them all they're liers, or stupid. Or now the detractors are in the the wierdest puzzle of all- having to tell all of them THEY now don't understand Aikido either.

And thats just me!!
Now you have all the guys who trained with Mike over the years, and now Rob.

It's getting to look rather desperate on the detractors side. Even sad.
Good luck in your training though.

It's getting to look rather desperate on the detractors side. Even sad.
Good luck in your training though.

So what about those who don't count as detractors such as myself? People who have always believed that 'internal skills' are the bedrock of aikido? Why is it that you won't discuss these things with me? Why is it that you won't answer my questions about your 'internal skills'?

I don't doubt that you have them. I believe the testimony of those who have met with you and practiced with you. I just wonder what the true skill behind the hubris is. Why won't you talk about it? Why won't you answer this simple question:

When the 200lb man you described places his hand on your chest and pushes. Does he do this by slowly applying and increasing the force he exerts? Or does he place and shove you as if he was trying to put his hand on the wall behind you? i.e. push through you. Not push you?

Regards

Mike Haft

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr

My previous question for Dan (in the previous post) was important because it relates to the various levels of 'ki tests' that exist in Koichi Tohei derived teaching. I asked him those questions because they will explain what it is he does (and others have witnessed him doing so I quite happily believe them and him),
I'm guessing from his descriptions and those of others that it sounds like he's doing stuff at the equivalent level of shoden or maybe chuden in ki development (maybe higher it's not possible to say without meeting him), but that he applies it in different ways than are typically done in ki society circles (i.e. aikido waza, whereas Dan probably does Vale Tudo type stuff), and is probably in a lot better physical shape than many aikidoka (physical fitness and strength makes a difference, but not like you're likely to think it would IMHO).

Think I might have made it onto Dan's ignore list though

Regards

Mike

FWIW I don't ignore you I just don't like reading the insults and characterizations you pepper your posts with. Nor do enjoy responding to you as I see you as baiting me.
I also don't like debating on the internet with folks who clearly don't have equal skills arguing with me over what I can or can't do. It's boring, I have to be in the mood.

Uhm....your previous posts about tests like
"walking into me?"
Ooookay

How about 310 pound 6.3" MMA guy pile-driving into me one after another for half an hour. WIth me standing there?
Uhm...how about a Holy Cross defensive end trying to slam me into the lockers?
Uhm...Collegiate wresttlers trying to take me down?
Power lifters at the gym while I stand there looking at them?

Ki tests?
Lets see. Today at a mini-seminar with folks from right here I had guys pushing on my chest while I stood on leg and then went up on my toes.
Then pushing on my head with me on my toes on one leg, then pushing on my back in between my shoulders with me up on my toes. There were losts of people in the room.
We also showed a training method for "giving up" structure and being overcome backwards on one one foot. You are stretched out and ready to fall over with a fellow pushing you over on your chest. I had new guys learning how to recover from that. Then some repeat guys learning to handle moving attacks themselves.
I don't really see them as meaningfull. I like moving and fighting as a better test anyway

MMA
Lost track of fighting with takedown resistense, lock resistence, and power strikes and kicks.

Why not talk about

WHY????????????????
This stuff is in Aikido
WHY????????????????
Men who've trained with Ushiro, Mike, Rob or me keep coming back and training and they....claim it's relevant to aikido.
WHO????????????????
Can teach this stuff and pass it on.

I think that's more interesting then another debate over whether or not it CAN be done.

If you are not a detractor of point- then your continuing to engage me the way you do speaks for itself. Argue the skills and their relevance to Aikido, Mike. If you have yet another personal slight (like hubris) save it for P.M Like Jun asks.
There is nothing positive to contribute by continuing to insult me in almost every post.
Check yourself will you?
What positive contribution to the larger discussion of Ki in Aikido or Internal skills of Daito ryu in aikido would you care to further, based on my replies-WITHOUT- making personal comments about me?
Without using a single insult in a paragraph.
Try it.

I know Jun would appreciate it.

Why not try answering my own questions as you asked me to answer yours? Mine were more global and involve asking others. Ask those who have felt these skills in us? Try aiming your line of inquiry to those in your own art and what they think?

I don't understand what there is to "get" about that quote of yours.
It's a pretty basic, albeit it dramatic example of using (I'll use some fancy "internal" words for you) horizontal jing. I could go you one better then that and describe connecting to the ground to make upward force, or downward force; vertical jing.

The ground doesn't "make power", the ground only provides a stable platform to issue force from. There is a word for using it in ground applications its called "turning over".

FWIW I don't ignore you I just don't like reading the insults and characterizations you pepper your posts with. Nor do enjoy responding to you as I see you as baiting me.
I also don't like debating on the internet with folks who clearly don't have equal skills arguing with me over what I can or can't do. It's boring, I have to be in the mood.

If I have appeared to be baiting you, then I sincerely apologise. It was not my intention to do so.

I do feel that much of what you say is deliberately phrased to promote yourself and your abilities without answering the proper and worthwhile questions I sometimes put your way. I shall address each of your statements made below in the following spirit. Please note I do not doubt that you have these skills. I have only ever questioned your motivation in the way you present them here on these forums. I may be completely wrong about all of this but that is the nature of the internet and non-verbal communication, we both risk being misconstrued.

Quote:

Dan Harden wrote:

Uhm....your previous posts about tests like
"walking into me?"
Ooookay

How about 310 pound 6.3" MMA guy pile-driving into me one after another for half an hour. WIth me standing there?
Uhm...how about a Holy Cross defensive end trying to slam me into the lockers?
Uhm...Collegiate wresttlers trying to take me down?
Power lifters at the gym while I stand there looking at them?

Please define and describe "pile into me", perhaps it is an Americanism I may misunderstand.

When the 'Holy Cross defensive end tried to slam you into the lockers' (btw for the benefit of non-US people what is a Holy Cross defensive end?). Did you stand there and he simply bounced off you? Or did you use your hands to resist his movements? Did you move your feet?

Collegiate wrestlers try to take you down? Please describe this process and describe in detail how they attempted to 'take you down' including descriptions of where they placed their hands how they moved their feet and where you placed/moved your hands and feet.

Quote:

Dan Harden wrote:

Ki tests?
Lets see. Today at a mini-seminar with folks from right here I had guys pushing on my chest while I stood on leg and then went up on my toes.
Then pushing on my head with me on my toes on one leg, then pushing on my back in between my shoulders with me up on my toes. There were losts of people in the room.

These are standard ki Soc tests. Standing on one leg is in fact a test used for assessment of Ki Soc rank. The Ki Soc test of 'standing naturally' involves standing with feet shoulder width apart and having the heels rest lightly on the ground (effectively tip toes in terms of balance and execution of principle). From your above description above I too can say I have had people do these things to me. I do not claim to be able to do 'Ueshiba's aiki'. Please explain how the things you do are different from what I do when people test me this way when standing on one leg or on tip toes?

Quote:

Dan Harden wrote:

We also showed a training method for "giving up" structure and being overcome backwards on one one foot. You are stretched out and ready to fall over with a fellow pushing you over on your chest. I had new guys learning how to recover from that.

Please explain how this is different from how I teach people to 'recover posture when they get overwhelmed during a ki test', meaning that if I push on your shoulder and you allow your shoulder to move backwards by not stopping my ki from entering your body, you can recover your posture by moving from your centre and regaining control of your hips by doing so.

Quote:

Dan Harden wrote:

Then some repeat guys learning to handle moving attacks themselves.
I don't really see them as meaningfull. I like moving and fighting as a better test anyway

As do I

Quote:

Dan Harden wrote:

MMA
Lost track of fighting with takedown resistense, lock resistence, and power strikes and kicks.

I emphasize strikes and kicks less but I emphaiseze resistance as much as I can with my senior students.

Quote:

Dan Harden wrote:

Why not talk about

WHY????????????????
This stuff is in Aikido
WHY????????????????
Men who've trained with Ushiro, Mike, Rob or me keep coming back and training and they....claim it's relevant to aikido.
WHO????????????????
Can teach this stuff and pass it on.

I think that's more interesting then another debate over whether or not it CAN be done.

I have never debated with you that it can be done. I also believe that you personally have these abilities. I too have some of them. I am interested in a discussion of the extent of yuor abilities and I think this would be a worthwhile addition to the debate. I stated in a previous post in response to George Ledyard who I think can teach these things and I included you and Mike Sigman in this list. I think it is worthwhile to discuss who can do these things and to what extent they can do these things.

Your descriptions are vague, from my present point of view this seems deliberate and so I call it hubris and question your motivations. I am sorry if this causes you undue offense but it is a worthy point of debate. I would have absolutely no problem giving you a very public apology if needed.

Would you care to explicitly answer my questions in as much detail as possible? It may simply confirm that you are indeed as good as you appear to be based on statements from yourself and things people who have trained with you have said. It may also expose interesting things for you and your students to consider, exactly in the same manner as your statements here seem to be intended to encourage aikidoka to expand their own practice in accordance to the use of internal principles.

I am not baiting you. I am sincerely interested in understanding what exactly it is that you can do in terms of internal skills. I do not have all of the abilities you describe as they appear to be from your descriptions. I am very interested in learning more about this and I have the needed experience (and gumption too I think) that allows me to ask fairly intelligent questions concerning these issues (at least I like to think so I hope that you can prove me wrong via informed debate/discussion).

Regards

Mike Haft

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr

I don't understand what there is to "get" about that quote of yours.
It's a pretty basic, albeit it dramatic example of using (I'll use some fancy "internal" words for you) horizontal jing. I could go you one better then that and describe connecting to the ground to make upward force, or downward force; vertical jing.

The ground doesn't "make power", the ground only provides a stable platform to issue force from. There is a word for using it in ground applications its called "turning over".

Now if Dan would answer hafts question, all would be answered.

Sure it's basic, but that "basic" component is something 99% of people can't do. Kudos if you can, and my apologies if I misjudged you. I still have to disagree that top athletes do this kind of stuff.

The ground doesn't make power, I agree. It's more a metaphore.
OTAH, do have to agree with Dan that looking at the vids... whatever connections are in you or your students body aren't apparent.
A connected guy tends to have a different "look" when they move.
Course, if I'm wrong I'll be the first to man up and buy you a brew if we ever meet

I figured Tim would be using this stuff in his ground work though, I take it that's what he calls it?

Tim would likely be the first to tell you that Bjj guys do the same thing internal guys do.

I don't know what terminology you are using with "torque the insides".

I don't really care how my stuff "looks" on the outside. I just care if it takes little effort and has big results. It does.

That's a pretty big statement to make...
I've rolled with BJJ blacks over here that've never felt this stuff before. Maybe Pete can chime in on his experiences (who trained with the a4Mbar g0d Rickson Gracie himself back in the day? )
(I've got several good annecdotes involving Carlson Gracie having a run-in with some DRAJJ guy with a bit of this skill at a seminar )
Sure a lot of the good rollers they have great posture when they're on the ground, know how to use the kua(pelvic region) to balance themselves etc (its a wonder it goest to #"%t when they stand up), but using more complicated internal movements on the ground...I'd have to say I'm more skeptical on that.
I've never felt it before.

If I were you, I'd set a small portion within you that says maybe, just maybe you haven't gotten the whole picture yet

As for torquing the insides, put simply I mean, if you were to Torque the lower body connection (the arch running along the inside of the knees connected to the tailbone/mingmen and tanden) against the upper body connection (the cross that was mentioned), with the spine as the axis, you can get some pretty potent destabilizing power to put into kicks/strikes without any windup. You can wholly commit without committing. Has a bonus of bouncing strikes back to your opponent as well.

And as for your PM, there's no need to refer me to Tim's site, you decided to put yourself on the spot, so its probably best you try and answer what you do to the best of your abilities

Rob,
I told you about Tim's site because I'm not going to put words in the mans mouth, if you want to know about him, ask him.

If you want to know about me ask me. You said you "thought Tim would be using this stuff in his ground work", I told you to ask him.

As for me, I use this stuff in everything I do. It's good body use. It's also common and natural.

I'm always up to be proven wrong. But no one is stepping up to the plate to prove me wrong. I hear a lot of talk but that's it. Sure maybe there is a chance you all are doing something I don't comprehend. But it's not apparent to me in the videos I see of Akuzawa, or Ushiro, or your video's Rob. I don't see any of you doing anything unique.

If any of you get near me, I'll go see you. Other then that, I've trained with some great martial artists, and been in several fights organized and not, this is where my opinions stem from.

George.... not just in this thread, but in a number of other previous threads also, go back and count how many people are "already doing this stuff". Bear in mind that some of the people visiting with Dan also asserted they were "already doing this stuff". Not to disparage, but just to make an observation, the "Hidden in Plain Sight" part of a lot of this is affected by the fact that there are too many "full cups", not only in Aikido, but many other arts, as well.

Even though I felt completely sure that I knew within reasonable parameters what Ushiro Sensei was doing, I made the trip to go see, just in case there was something new that I hadn't seen. Even though I have worked out a many Ki-Society dojo's in the past (out of that same curiosity), I still went to see Shaner Sensei in order to see what he did. I picked up some useful items and thought-starteres. Even though Rob and I have corresponed on the internet, we still made long trips in order to check out each others stuff. We both picked up new ideas and perspectives. If you're really a martial artist and curious to keep improving, you make the effort. It's a waste of time talking to the people with cups that are already full..... but they're the same ones who came to dominate Aikido for too long and who put Aikido in a position where so many are saying "wait a minute.... something must be missing". It's not only Hidden in Plain Sight, it's Ignored When it's in Plain Sight.

I've never met the man who said that-who had a clue. In fact everyone every, single, one acknowledged they were dealing with something unknown to them. In and of itself-it proves you don't understand internal skills so you relegate them to what you see. You should go meet someone who instead of saying they got it-actually does.

FWIW Your fights don't prove anything other than you fought some people who fought back. Fighting is fighting. The best fighters in the world can be the best fighters in the world. and they don't have a clue about these skills either.
Good luck with your training.