What about the ones who have no voice, the dead, the wounded, the homeless veterans? They don't really get a choice on American foreign policy. I don't think it's entirely unfair to speak for the ones who can't speak for themselves especially when they clearly can't define their argument for their occupation you really don't have to take the high road here.

Sure, no disagreement there.

I'm just saying that if you want an international coalition to end the Afghan war, the other major players on the world stage would be ready IMO.

Russia and China may have looked fondly (esp. Russia) on us wasting our resources there for a time, but now it's creating monsters in their backyards, when they each already have problems with Islamist terrorism; not to mention that if the US ever somehow managed to "win," neither Russia nor China would be pleased with US military bases deep in central Asia.

It would really be in everyone's interest to end this war (save perhaps Raytheon shareholders and the Miss Linzis of the world).

Last edited by r3volution 3.0; 02-12-2018 at 10:02 PM.

"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

I'm just saying that if you want an international coalition to end the Afghan war, the other major players on the world stage would be ready IMO.

Russia and China may have looked fondly (esp. Russia) on us wasting our resources there for a time, but now it's creating monsters in their backyards, when they each already have problems with Islamist terrorism; not to mention that if the US ever somehow managed to "win," neither Russia nor China would be pleased with US military bases deep in central Asia.

It would really be in everyone's interest to end this war (save perhaps Raytheon shareholders and the Miss Linzis of the world).

What about all the infrastructure that gets rebuilt, I am sure they have lots of interest. Plus the people collecting interest..

For that matter, if it's a real offer, it could still end his career. And if it's not, it might still be a golden opportunity, if he plays it right.

I still can't get past seeing the old photos of the Taliban in Bush's living room, having a nice little visit. Yeah, the Bushes are ostensibly oil men, and liable to try to network with anyone. But they still smell of CIA to me.

I'm coming around to the view that this is too significant to just ignore. But Rand Paul had better cover his ass ten ways from Sunday--physically, politically, publicity-wise, philosophically and everything else-ly. You can't barbeque the beef if you don't play with fire, but it's still a mighty good way to get burned.

So next time think a little more before just opposing something because I said it.

If he gets the sitting president's approval and covers himself as you said this could set him up with great publicity for 2020 or 2024, if DJTvsg refuses to cooperate it will make a great campaign issue for 2020 or 2024.

Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

Robert Heinlein

Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

Groucho Marx

I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

Linus, from the Peanuts comic

You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

Alexis de Torqueville

Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

I don't think he should do it based on the limited knowledge I have--he'll just be painted as consorting with terr-rists and it'll end his political career early. But I trust he'll make the right decision.

So next time think a little more before just opposing something because I said it.

If he gets the sitting president's approval and covers himself as you said this could set him up with great publicity for 2020 or 2024, if DJTvsg refuses to cooperate it will make a great campaign issue for 2020 or 2024.

Are you putting words in my mouth again? Prepared to eat them?

You said...

Originally Posted by Swordsmyth

It sounds like a good idea if he can either get DJTvsg's cooperation or if he runs and wins in 2020.

First, I don't believe the Taliban are interested in waiting two years and nine months. Second, I don't believe for a second, and don't know why you would believe, that Donald J. Trump values selling guns will cooperate. Clearly if the Taliban thought for a second that Donald J. Trump values selling guns' State Department was even capable of achieving peace, they wouldn't be needing Rand Paul. The idea that Rand Paul would go crawling to Donald J. Trump values selling guns to cover his ass is just stupid, because that will never happen. Waiting until Donald J. Trump values selling guns gets his fat ass reelected so it no longer matters if Rand embarrasses him, while American servicefolk and little brown children continue to get injured and dead, is even more stupid.

As for getting the American people invested in the peace talks, and covering Rand Paul that way, you didn't say anything of the sort, or there's a chance I might not have dismissed what you said at first blush. You simply said Paul should go to Donald J. Trump values selling guns to cover his ass, which is an amazingly stupid plan on the face of it.

As for you belatedly saying this could net Rand Paul gains for 2020, that's quite a flipflop from your original statement, in which you said letting people continue to die and get maimed in Afghanistan for over two and a half years while we all wait for Donald J. Trump values selling guns to get his fat ass reelected before sounding the starting gun was a viable option. Isn't it?

Got any more words you want to eat? If so, please proceed to stick them in my mouth also, and pretend like I said them too. Go ahead!

Originally Posted by angelatc

There's not a liberty lover on the planet who isn't called a liberal by the right, and a con by the left.

On the upside, if this somehow worked and peace broke out in that region thanks to Rand, he'd be a shoe-in for a Nobel Prize. A real earned award for actual peace, unlike the sham that Obama got years ago.

"There was madness in any direction, at any hour. You could strike sparks anywhere. There was a fantastic universal sense that whatever we were doing was right, that we were winning.

And that I think, was the handle. That sense of inevitable victory over the forces of Old and Evil. Not in any mean or military sense; we didn't need that. Our energy would simply prevail. We had all the momentum; we were riding the crest of a high and beautiful wave." ~ HST

I don't think he should do it based on the limited knowledge I have--he'll just be painted as consorting with terr-rists and it'll end his political career early. But I trust he'll make the right decision.

Yep. I wouldn't want Rand to try this, because even if it were real and he could be kept safe - people connected to our own government would be happy to see his plane crash, or might pay some "rebels" to kidnap him. The story seems to be based entirely on one twitter post from who-really-knows-who, so it's not real credible. Seems more like a planted story, which neocons would like to be able to bring up later, when Rand is arguing against being in Afghanistan.

Can't ya just hear Lindsey Graham and McCain already?

"Oh! Rand is BFF with the taliban! Rand wants us to "take marching orders" from the taliban! Rand is colluding with the taliban! We found some questionable emails and must have investigations! Rand must be questioned by the FBI! Rand is traitor to our great democracy!!! Rand Paul must resign!!!...

Yep. I wouldn't want Rand to try this, because even if it were real and he could be kept safe - people connected to our own government would be happy to see his plane crash, or might pay some "rebels" to kidnap him. The story seems to be based entirely on one twitter post from who-really-knows-who, so it's not real credible. Seems more like a planted story, which neocons would like to be able to bring up later, when Rand is arguing against being in Afghanistan.

Can't ya just hear Lindsey Graham and McCain already?

Lindsey Graham and McCain would be the worst ones to judge him- they actually have pictures of them with ISIS.

First, I don't believe the Taliban are interested in waiting two years and nine months. Second, I don't believe for a second, and don't know why you would believe, that Donald J. Trump values selling guns will cooperate. Clearly if the Taliban thought for a second that Donald J. Trump values selling guns' State Department was even capable of achieving peace, they wouldn't be needing Rand Paul. The idea that Rand Paul would go crawling to Donald J. Trump values selling guns to cover his ass is just stupid, because that will never happen. Waiting until Donald J. Trump values selling guns gets his fat ass reelected so it no longer matters if Rand embarrasses him, while American servicefolk and little brown children continue to get injured and dead, is even more stupid.

As for getting the American people invested in the peace talks, and covering Rand Paul that way, you didn't say anything of the sort, or there's a chance I might not have dismissed what you said at first blush. You simply said Paul should go to Donald J. Trump values selling guns to cover his ass, which is an amazingly stupid plan on the face of it.

As for you belatedly saying this could net Rand Paul gains for 2020, that's quite a flipflop from your original statement, in which you said letting people continue to die and get maimed in Afghanistan for over two and a half years while we all wait for Donald J. Trump values selling guns to get his fat ass reelected before sounding the starting gun was a viable option. Isn't it?

Got any more words you want to eat? If so, please proceed to stick them in my mouth also, and pretend like I said them too. Go ahead!

Here is how the conversation went:

Originally Posted by Swordsmyth

It sounds like a good idea if he can either get DJTvsg's cooperation or if he runs and wins in 2020.

Originally Posted by acptulsa

Yeah, sure it does. Let's go talk to the terrorists the CIA set up and Bush entertained before they were demonized in the mainstream media, and which the American public thinks is a homegrown enemy, and see if they don't help the mainstream media destroy our political career for doing it.

In short, let's walk into an obvious CIA trap.

Hell of an idea. Just brilliant.

Originally Posted by Swordsmyth

Yeah, it's SOOOO much better of an idea to refuse to negotiate a peace deal with the power most likely to control Afghanistan when we leave or are driven out, then we can stay there until further notice and lose more servicemen while killing more locals, why oh why didn't I think of that?

Originally Posted by acptulsa

Yeah, because a group with ties to the CIA offering to seriously talk peace with one of 535 members of a legislative body which never even declared war on the country in question is obviously a serious offer.

You were against the whole idea until you actually took some time to think instead of just rejecting my position.
You are the one who emphasized that Rand would have to cover himself politically, well unless or until he is president in 2020 or 2024 he MUST get DJTvsg's permission to engage in any such talks, if he didn't get the sitting president's permission he would be labeled a "traitor" who was "conspiring with our enemies".
If Trump won't sanction the talks the only thing Rand can do is use that as a campaign issue in 2020 or 2024, and the Taliban will be quite happy to talk us into leaving their country any time we are willing.

Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

Robert Heinlein

Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

Groucho Marx

I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

Linus, from the Peanuts comic

You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

Alexis de Torqueville

Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

Yeah, and since you brought it up, at least one of Ron Paul's former campaign guys was raided, and others arrested, when everyone knew that Rand Paul would be running for the nomination. The hearings were held off till campaign time.http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...56#post6585856

Yeah, and since you brought it up, at least one of Ron Paul's former campaign guys was raided, and others arrested, when everyone knew that Rand Paul would be running for the nomination. The hearings were held off till campaign time.http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...56#post6585856

Rand said in an interview in 2016 that he had been tapped by the Obama administration as well.

Yep. I wouldn't want Rand to try this, because even if it were real and he could be kept safe - people connected to our own government would be happy to see his plane crash, or might pay some "rebels" to kidnap him. The story seems to be based entirely on one twitter post from who-really-knows-who, so it's not real credible. Seems more like a planted story, which neocons would like to be able to bring up later, when Rand is arguing against being in Afghanistan.

Can't ya just hear Lindsey Graham and McCain already?

Yea, but they can and will do that kind of thing anytime Rand tries to do anything on foreign policy.

...e.g. the "general Paul" comments from Miss Linzi which precipitated this whole thing.

I don't know that pursuing this really gives them any more ammunition (once you jump in the pool, you can't get more wet).

"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

For that matter, if it's a real offer, it could still end his career. And if it's not, it might still be a golden opportunity, if he plays it right.

I still can't get past seeing the old photos of the Taliban in Bush's living room, having a nice little visit. Yeah, the Bushes are ostensibly oil men, and liable to try to network with anyone. But they still smell of CIA to me.

I'm coming around to the view that this is too significant to just ignore. But Rand Paul had better cover his ass ten ways from Sunday--physically, politically, publicity-wise, philosophically and everything else-ly. You can't barbeque the beef if you don't play with fire, but it's still a mighty good way to get burned.

Originally Posted by acptulsa

I can't help but feel it's a fool's errand. The U.S. government is highly unlikely to agree to any just settlement, and the U.S. media is highly unlikely to allow him to tell the people of this nation what went wrong when the talks fail. Where's his advantage in that?

If he could count on his father's legions to spread the truth of what went down, if he could communicate with us and we could shame the media for lying about it as we did when the media tried to make Ron into He Who Must Not Be Named, it would be a very worthwhile thing. The Court of Public Opinion is going to have to be a major player in this thing, if it is to amount to something.

Can he count on us? Are we still legion enough to have his back?

The government has no interest in peace. None. Zilch Nada. If the Taliban aren't just a CIA front, and they're serious about this, then Rand Paul is an excellent choice. And the reason he is, is us. We know Rand, we know he has character. We can vouch for him, we are experienced in shaming the media into telling the truth even when it doesn't behoove them to do so. We know how to make ourselves heard. We can help explain what their offers would mean for We, the People.

If he can't count on us, he might as well not go. He'd probably be wiser not to. But if he can count on us, this could be a major victory for the common citizens of the United States.

If you changed your mind again it isn't my fault.

Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

Robert Heinlein

Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

Groucho Marx

I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

Linus, from the Peanuts comic

You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

Alexis de Torqueville

Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it