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psychobabbling

After some initial doubt, I've for several reasons decided to start this topic. Most likely it will die a silent and unmourned death. We shall see.

First I want myself and the closet-sextourists to get out of each others' hair. I can't abide the fourletter words, the bad spelling, braggings and "I almost made it" stories, spiced with expressions like "hot babes" etc. On the other hand the !!!!WOW!!! types do not like words with many syl-lab-les, so here such is concentrated in one place, which they can avoid. In other words, the contributers to this topic can, without interference, bore each other to death, if we wish to.

Next: Having a soft spot for conspiracy theories I'm convinced, that not only anti-scammers read anti-scam sites, a lot of other groups do it also. The scammers themselves, agency representatives, ultrafeminists (just-hating-men-on-general-principles), chatters (having nothing to say, but doing it with many words) and those just curious. The possibilty of disinformation is real, but maybe it's possible to suppress it by being longwinded and circumstantial.

And last, the most important. Internet-dating is after all only one aspect of the the eternal "war of the sexes". To understand net-dating, I believe it's necessary to paint a broader background canvas. Say, are we just a bunch of grumpy querulants or is there really a difference between not being able to get along with your next-door childhood love and a FSUW? Where and what is the difference? Even without a computer, a different cultural background or alcoholism, Sue-Ellen could still be a conartist or pro-dater. Especially if she's good-looking.

I'm not completely sceptical about FSU dating (internet or not). In the last app. 18 years I've had three longer relationships (in the biblical sense) with SFUW, lasting alltogether 14 years. These relationships broke up for the same personal reasons, as any other relationships do. And I've had my share of scandinavian psychos. For me the question is the PROBABILITY of meeting "straights" or "bends" in each group.

So I invite for wievs on this. And I have a few proposals for background-basics:

I believe, that we like all other animals fundamentally are biological robots. We have a digestive system with two openings, a need to reproduce and to fight for a place in a predatory system. That's our startingpoint. But compared to other animals, we also have rather complex emotions and intellect. We have a possibility, individually or culturally, to be more than just reptile-brained. And different individuals/cultures/subcultures use this possibility in various degrees.

And I also suggest to sort out the differences between women and men. For the present bunch of probably half-machos it's maybe an idiotic question. But believe me, in this time of unisex, feminism, equal opportunities and so on, the issue has seriously, repeatedly and heatedly been raised, if there IS any difference (in spite of different plumbing and men's inability to get pregnant). I strongly support the idea, that women and men are almost different species, and as in any other contact with ETs, we need a lot of diplomacy to establish peaceful contact.

"I do my homework. I have "studied", if you call it that, this scene, read INS reports, FSU & US etc census pages, and more, and posted my findings on some forums. I think people should know the ground before jumping in head first."

That's what I meant by "understanding" you. Your homework and your conclusions. I did not make an analysis of your character or motives.
I respect good workmanship, when I see it (in spite of my playing fool sometimes).

We need this kind of putting light on the problem more than just
cool, chat-shorthand language warm air.

quote:We need this kind of putting light on the problem more than just
cool, chat-shorthand language warm air.

well, a proverb says: if you really want to ask the question, you must be prepared to hear the answer.
Most men just aren't.
They want the dream as agencies sell it and are open to discuss only trivialities, but ultimately hair must grow back and a dollar turn into a thousand.
Sorry, folks.
A good man i met on a forum seemed at first to take a reality check, but persisted in the end, was scammed again and ended in the news...go figure.

Hey Prometheus, I'm a bit surprised that you haven't popped in here more often. It's a great place to have an open exchange without fear of being bashed over the head and should you coose to use a few eight syllable words, no one will crisize you. Oh course, we leave our supercapes and tights at the door along with our millions and that spitting habit![)]

quote:FSU women are not better or worse than Western women.

This actually confirms what I have felt all along. Women are women. Yes, there are certainly going to be cultural differences, but the underlying beast is still basically the same no matter where she's from. I don't expect to go to Ukraine and find Donna Reid, June Cleaver, or even Lisa Douglas and as you say, part of the problem is that there are some guys who do expect to find this type of woman. Again, it's a matter of propoganda and salemanship to create and perpetuate this ilussion.

quote:Yes, there is a big difference.

As I read your post, it seems you mean there's a difference between the facade of FSU/MOB dating site women, but as I believe, NOT so much of a difference between "real" everyday FSUWs and the women of any western nation, with the exeption of the basic cultural differences?

quote:Truer words don't exist. But I guess PeopleS must have experienced something like this with his heroin ###**%& ex.

My personal situation is that I CAN have near infinite patience. Maybe too much??? I fully understand that I am going to meet a woman and not Betty Crocker. I also understand that there will be cultural differences that she will have to adjust to should all go well and it's decide that she will come to the US. I make no claims to be all knowing or all understanding, but I can foresee some of the future problems that may occur and have openly discussed them with "my girl".

I even wrote to her, basically trying to scare her about it. Our age difference... I've said before that she's only 25 and I'm 44 and that she's actually a few years younger than my targeted age group. I asked her if she was sure about it and she replied it doesn't bother her. She's graduating school and will have a degree in design, but as I told her it may be hard for her to find a job in her field, especially because her English isn't exactly fluent. She said she understands and won't become frustrated. Culture shock... she says she's prepared and knew what she was doing when she placed her ad.

I give credit for my thinking to ask these questions to what I've learned on these forums. She says she's ready, we'll know in a month and a half if that is true.

quote:well, a proverb says: if you really want to ask the question, you must be prepared to hear the answer. Most men just aren't.

A very true statement, except, I like to believe, here in this forum. I thank all of you for what I've learned.

Talking about similarities and differences, it's important to remember, that it's impossible to pinpoint such ideas down to individual level, in all details.

We are moving in an area of generalisations, approximations, statistics.

But starting with animals, I guess, that most would agree, that a human being IS different (physically and psychologically) from f.ex. a dog or Schroedinger's or Brunod's cat. There's something specifically special about cats, dogs and humans.

Then, inside the human species, you have men and women, with different chromosomes. We have blacks, pinks, browns, yellows and even the greens (said to be living inside the earth). Each group having their own special genetic characteristics. And a further subdivision into social cultures gives more diversion.

Each of all these groups have something, which is partly common, and at the same time special for that group. All the way down to the individual.

Most people, unfamiliar with scandinavian culture, would probably make a sweeping generalisation. And that is true in some respects. But there are also very big differences. The danish are the "latinos" of scandinavia, relatively speaking open and mercurial, the swedish are reserved, slow and fundamentally honest, the finish reliable, and the norwegians provincially nationalistic, charming in an innocent way.

You'll find the same situation if you pass the border from Latvia to Lithuania. And in USA, going from one state, race or subculture to the next.

It's the same in FSU and it's satellite countries. There's something which is distinctively slavic, different from chinese, caucasian etc. But then there is a big difference INSIDE this group. Russians are not the same as polish, indigenous ukrainians or Belarusians, though they share some characteristics.

And it is those common slavic traits I talk about, when I put out my opinions here. I've had contact with a cool, reliable, non-scamming belarusian woman, and also with scheming, sociopathic danish women. But still I feel it's possible to make generalisations.

It seems, that my last suggestion for a new psychobabble-topic hasn't been recieved with any great enthusiasm. So I'll try a new angle.

You often meet the opinion, that a very big part of the present FSU culture is based on the former political situation. Personally I'm not so sure of the extent of this theory. While Poland (from where I have a considerable part of my information), as far as I know never was a real SU state, it was nonetheless a satelite, and the Sovjet influence was strong, so it can give some clues.

After the fall of SU, you would see a distinct tendency in Poland. A strong positive attitude towards the west, and an openly negative attitude towards Russia. Often bordering on a hate, which can be compared to what some muslim countries or groups feel about USA. You will meet this dislike for russians everywhere in the indigenious cultures in the russian sphere of influence.

But at the same time, communism/socialism is still an influential political factor in some of these countries. For them socialism is not quite the same as the russian dominated sovjet. Some of my former polish friends/girlfriends are staunch socialists, but at the same time Russia/Sovjet haters.

For me all highly centralised ideologies, be they political, religious or economical, will very quick turn into "empires" with a constant need of expansion. The alpha males (or occasionally females) buy the support of the faithful supporters (eg army, secret police, propaganda makers etc) by sanctioning the plundering of other groups. The followers of such ideologies are told, that they do the right thing, because they are spreading the message of this god, this "correct" economical theory etc.

Before the Sovjet period, Russia was expansive in the name of the czar, in the Sovjet period in the name of Marx, and now, what will be the next??? Scamming export?

It is my theory, that this longtime standing status as "empire" have influenced the russian culture, down to the individual. The satelite populations around Russia often describe the average russian as haughty, arrogant and unreliable. This has some bearings on the cyber-dating situation. It could be, that the further you get away from the heart of the russian"enigmatic" soul, the bigger are your chances of success of a functional relationship.

This could sound, as if I'm a russian-hater. That's far from the truth, I have a great respect for many aspects of russian culture, and I love having contact with them. But there is a certain limit, which I personally wouldn't pass. Call it cultural differences, if you please, but I have some integrated ideas about how I want my life to function, as f.ex. paying my bills in time, following a general set of social agreements (whether I like them or not) and trying to treat other living beings with some respect. I'm not quiiiite sure, this would fit into the russian model.

quote:But at the same time, communism/socialism is still an influential political factor in some of these countries. For them socialism is not quite the same as the russian dominated sovjet. Some of my former polish friends/girlfriends are staunch socialists, but at the same time Russia/Sovjet haters.

Poland's territory was "partitioned" three times in the XVIII century; everybody got a slice of the former elective kingdom/commonwealth (famed philosophers Rousseau & Bonnot de Mably had been asked to suggest a model of constitution for the Polish-lithuanian commonwealth by count Wielhorski ). In 1921 the USSR invaded Poland, but when communist partisans emerged from the basements with paraphenalia, they found the French army instead.
I think in today's eastern Europe faith in "socialism" or communism, besides a few nostalgic people, is fostered by the very crooked nature of democracy.
"Peace" icon and "democratic martyr" Walesa in Poland (so iconic he received the nobel prize ) established a looting and crooked regime; as a result, the next election called ex-communists in power. Eltsin was another "democratic icon ", even if he had bombed the parliament; he established a crooked regime based on personal profit and was later evicted to make room for authoritarian Putin.

quote:The satelite populations around Russia often describe the average russian as haughty, arrogant and unreliable.

Such empires were "pacified zones"; we now understand the error americans made pushing for the dissolution of european colonial empires.
The latest trend & smartest idea Americans have is to occupy these countries on their own, ignoring they'll run out of funds or out of political viability very fast, while stirring unrest not even Hitler felt ready to face.
The above description can be applied to americans and any other "metropolitan" visiting "colonies" ( half Europe is still occupied by american military...for our own good, of course ).
I remember reading the case of French soldiers who blew a bridge in jest or something in Africa, botched it and killed many Africans but their only retribution was a reprimand.
We can find alike cases involving Americans, Russians and other "imperialists".
The "for your own good" rhetoric is getting stale, as the polemic between Russia and Estonia recently showed.
Estonia removed a USSR military monument as a symbol of the USSR invasion, and all Putin could say was rambling about "but we fought the Nazis and therefore our actions are non reprehensible".

Cit Ham:
"I think in today's eastern Europe faith in "socialism" or communism, besides a few nostalgic people, is fostered by the very crooked nature of democracy".

For sure, both considered as an intellectual description of political systems and by my personal knowledge of the individual post-socialists I've met in Poland, the phenomenon of socialism there can largely be described as discontention. The same people could possibly have been arch-conservatives in other political constellations.

I'm not swooning with delight either, when "democracy" is mentioned, but the long and complicated history of utopian dreams hasn't come up with the perfect answer sofar. Guess we'll have to live with democracy for a while yet.

The problem is, that in democracy the sheepwalkers will have their say also, and BEING sheepwalkers, they react exactly as if they are living in a centralised regime (dictatorship).

The old american protestsong comes to mind: "Our leaders are the wisest men, that's why we elect them again and again".

Though personally sympathetic to the idea of anarchy in theory (strong, free, personally responsible individuals), I'm convinced this is a pipedream. It has been tried in several versions, and it never functions.

Believe it or not, even I have had a short period as a "politician" being the initiater and boss at local level for a once growing liberal national party in Sweden. Half of the originally participating individuals were there, because they were opportunists. Another push towards my general misanthropic attitude. I left very fast.

But I do not think it would be fair or meaningful to go out public with an exclusive "woe" message. There are no gods or ETs fixing our problems. If we are not sheepwalkers (whom I consider a lost cause in most cases), the only thing we can do is to hang on to whatever decency, common sense, wisdom, moral or compassion we may have, and let it be a part of our lives. It DOES matter.

Maybe we don't see many big steps forward in the human community because of this, but the results, if such were to stop would be disastrous. The "good" people, trying communication, diplomacy, understanding, tolerance as they best can, are stemming the otherwise inevitable everybody-fighting-everybody.

Ofcourse the whole thing about "good" people doesn't mean anything to the powers that be. But "good" people are officially "role-models", and as such have certain possibilites, which even the common monomaniac dictator is reluctant to touch. If you behave OK to your neighbours and friends, you belong to a group, which as a whole is slightly immune from the AVERAGE deranged politician with a powersyndrom. Exceptions exist, such as Hitler, Stalin etc., but they will usually fight each other also, so "the inevitability of history" (as it's so poetically called) will eventually take care of them too.

Remember we do after all live in a predatory universe, we were not born with a guarantee for a happy life. If we want it better, we'll have to do it ourselves.

quote:But at the same time, communism/socialism is still an influential political factor in some of these countries. For them socialism is not quite the same as the russian dominated sovjet. Some of my former polish friends/girlfriends are staunch socialists, but at the same time Russia/Sovjet haters.

What actually took place in the SU, is an abomination of communism/ scocialism as prescribed by Lenin. In it's purest form, this scocio-econic-political philosophy actually sounds very enticing. Kind of Three Musketeers like... "All for one and one for all", but the thing here is that "all" must believe in it and follow the philosophy for it to work. Obviously, this wasn't the case.

Soviet communism was more akin to feudalism of 14th century England or France, thus the need for the KGB to scare the people back in line. There are many Russians who weren't very happy with the way the system was run. The people of the other FSU states have a gripe with a man long dead. Many Americans would have some pretty foul things to say to me for this next statement, but I think history has proven my point already.

Franklin Delano Roosevelt did as much to help create the Soviet Union as "Ucnle" Joe Stalin. At the end of WWII (in Europe, since the war continued in the Pacific theater), Churchill tried desperately to covince FDR that allowing Stalin's armies to occupy eastern Europe was a grievous mistake. It seems old "Whinny" was right in his assessment of the probable outcome of the occupation. He soon lost his job! FDR was a tired, dying old man with little fight left at this point and only wanted it all to end. He lost his stomach for it all, and his decicision made the SU.

George S. Patton, THE most tenacious, arrogant, self-confident, strong-willed, bulldog of a general this country has ever known, basically was fired for being so bold as to publically side with Churchill on the issue.

Still, the influence that life in these occupied states under SU control IS apparent. It's reasonable for there to be some dislike of the people who are perceived as those who are responsible for the occupation of what was once, and is once again a sovereign nation, though the hatred may be misplaced upon the people as opposed to the old regime.

As for democracy, it only works with the help of some socialist add-ons. Every individual has the "opportunity" to better him or herself and to strive to the highest level. Sounds good on paper. But, in the eariest days, scoial class limited many, and still their decendants struggle to overcome the difficulties that faced their great-great grand fathers.

Welfare and social security (programs that got their start during the FDR administration), help to alliviate some of the scocio-economic strife for the out of work and the elderly, but not all. Such scocial programs also breed those who find creative ways to "scam" the government out of free money.

Unfortunately, the "good" people don't have the political clout to accomplish squat! Jesus Christ couldn't get elected to town council spewing his peace and love message... "What's in it for me?"

Being a global community, as our communication proves, it would take massive changes in every government worldwide to effect change without military intervention, which would only lead to another dictatorship and oppression. Again, I refer to Lenin's communism. Such social harmony can only be realized should all agree of their own accord.

"though the hatred may be misplaced upon the people as opposed to the old regime."

I only refer to, what I heard in Poland. According to this, the individual russians often misused their positions of power, as is a common behaviour of any colonial military or civic personnal. But my impression is, that this hate goes much deeper and further back than just the SU period. Supposedly the germans should be equally abhorred, but they are slightly better tolerated than the russians.

"Welfare and social security (programs that got their start during the FDR administration), help to alliviate some of the scocio-economic strife for the out of work and the elderly, but not all. Such scocial programs also breed those who find creative ways to "scam" the government out of free money".

As you probably know, Scandinavia has some of the most developed public wellfare programs in the world. Which is very fine. But you are correct in pointing out the possibilities of scamming the system. For a while is was so bad here in Sweden and Denmark, that you openly could refuse taking a job at all (even when a suitable one was offered) and still get almost the same in dole as you had working. I know of people, who lived this way ten years or more, never lifting a finger.

"Unfortunately, the "good" people don't have the political clout to accomplish squat! Jesus Christ couldn't get elected to town council spewing his peace and love message... "What's in it for me?"

My point is exactly that; you can get things done, without sullying yourself with politics. Jesus (or his PR group) succeeded well, without him being a politician personally, didn't they? Also Buddha, Krishna and Lao-tzu (he actually was offered a political job, but turned it down). And these guys are rather wellknown. Politics isn't everything. Personally I have been relatively quiet, only a few newspaper interwievs and a couple of performances in radio and TV, but those projects I've been working on, have been growing silently and peacefully into major-interest-areas today. Absolutely not saying, I did this alone, but I was somewhat of a pioneer at local scandinavian level, and I've never made much noise. Things have a tendency to spread naturally, if they are functional.

"Again, I refer to Lenin's communism. Such social harmony can only be realized should all agree of their own accord".

Unfortunately this can be said of all utopian ideologies.

With no shame of being called elitist, I am convinced that sheepwalkers never create anything, when it comes to the point. They are just being manipulated, as even a majority of politicians are (told you I like conspiracies). The real players are those, who have real power. Moneypeople, religious leaders and dynasties with political connections. And they play the big chessgame of the world against their old opponents, the outsiders (=those who are immune to the indoctrination used on sheepwalkers).

quote:According to this, the individual russians often misused their positions of power, as is a common behaviour of any colonial military or civic personnal. But my impression is, that this hate goes much deeper and further back than just the SU period. Supposedly the germans should be equally abhorred, but they are slightly better tolerated than the russians.

I feel as though, as with any perceived oppressor, hatred by the oppressed will be shown to those who were the overlords. This hatred is then extended to the nation, and people of the oppressor as a whole. This hatred may multiply by the generations.

I look at the history of the US vs the USSR as an exsample of such histeria and propoganda, although fear, not oppression was the tool.

Now, as we have dispensed with the USSR, and begin to learn about the people, we in the US see they are not so different. However, because of the proximity and nature of the contact, it's understandable that the people of eastern Europe would hold such a grudge longer.

Also the fact of what you said about the individual, presents itself as the root of the whole USSR/ communist failure. As I said, and Lenin prescribed, there can be no individualism that exists without consent of the whole. Too many individuals took it upon themselves to do things for their own reasons, be they greed, glory. or some Freudian psychosis which was based in their hatred of their mother.

It's fairly easy to understand why the Russians would be hated above the Germans, since Germany invaded and destroyed these countries 60 plus years ago (and have since been rebuilt), but the USSR had been the oppressor for the past 50 or so years.

quote:My point is exactly that; you can get things done, without sullying yourself with politics. Jesus (or his PR group) succeeded well, without him being a politician personally, didn't they?

swede, as the story goes, Jesus got himself nailed to a cross for his efforts over 2,000 years ago and where are we all now for his sacrifice? The world revolves around POWER. Right and wrong play second fiddle, and I'm sure you know it. Sure the churches have some influence over their patronage, but politics is the worlds true "power" currency.

As the "lower scale" intellectual of our little group, I will once again refer to something I remember from a "Star Trek" movie which I feel is somewhat prophetic, and am sure was borrowed from some other greater philosopher, "The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few... or the one."

It's sad to say, but the needs, or the greed, of the few often determine the outcome for the many in our reality and these power brokers have done such a great job of selling themselves to all of us (worldwide) that it has become basically impossible to get rid of them for fear that all scocial kayos would ensue.

For ANY worldwide philosophy to exist, much more than a simple majority of the world's population would have to agrre, and that kind of world unity is not something we will see in our lifetimes without some form of divine intervention.

Now I propose to you a new traveler in our world... the "dreamwalker".