37 comments:

Lana
said...

Does this law really stem from self-hatred or from hatred of religion? There's a difference. You can love yourself as a Jew but hate those who practice the religion.The real tragedy is that Moron is actively destroying the little bit of unity we achieved after the crisis of the summer.

Lana: A major precipt of Judaisim is "Love your neighbor as yourself."

What does it mean to "love yourself as a Jew" -- if you target and imprison people who want to increase Jewish religious practice? What meaning is there to being "Jewish" if it's devoid of ALL religious experience?

"Hating those who practice the religion" is about as "un-Jewish" as anyone can get...

Jameel- You wrote, 'What meaning is there to being "Jewish" if it's devoid of ALL religious experience?'

That is exactly the point of secular Zionism, the point upon which the state of Israel was founded- Judaism as a race, not as a religion.Although I personally disagree with this idea, you can't ignore the fact that this is what the secular left believes. Therefore it is possible to be Jewish and not religious; in fact, to them, it is preferable.

For him to get up and propose a law like that is shocking in it's indictment of him as a hater of religious zionism. What would be more shocking - to see this law get passed.

Either way, it's amazing that the lawmakers can focus on such "important" issues as religious outreach while these lawmakers are investigated for such trivial matter as rape and mishandling of the war.

Is this so bad? I mean, do we want to do kiruv with little kids? The kiruv may cause major problems for them in terms of normal family development. Perhaps kiruv for them should wait till they are older.

Rav Shechter once told us a story, that a divorce ended up with the (nuts) mother being religious and the (sane) dad not religious, and he said the child should go with the dad: first you have to be normal, then you can be frum.

On the other hand, maybe you are right. I mean, these kids are bombarded constantly with anti religious sentiments and ideas, perhaps getting some pro-religious experiences by kiruv people is a good thing....

I understand that he doesn't want people to persuade the young ones. But when a Jew teaches another Jew, they are trying to give them what they need to know so they will know how to nourish their neshamah when they are older.

It's obvious that the whole point of this proposed "law" is to be able to prosecute Dati/Chareidi parents as a pretext for other ideological grounds. After all, raising a "frum" child involves making said child more religious.

I could even see the Supreme Court upholding this law as a way of removing children from homes that "someone" considers "unsafe" for young impressionable children.

OTOH, it could just be that somehow Chaim Oron is simply Mel Gibson's lost twin brother.

If a non-observant teenager were to attend Bnei Akiva activities, and then decide, based on what he/she experienced and learned, to become shomer Shabbat -- then Oron's proposed law would send the Bnei Akiva youth leaders to prison.

As the religious percentage of the Jewish population continues to rise, you can expect to see more and more panicked responses such as this one from the likes of Oron. Israel's elite is full of self-haters of this ilk, who have no compunctions about imposing despotic, anti-democratic measures as a way of stemming the free flow of ideas that they dislike.

Jameel, thanks for the heads-up, as always. From my post, "Hypocrisy, Thy Name is Meretz:"

Back in 1989 or 1990, the Jerusalem Report ran a feature on a new program sponsored by the “Movement for Secular Humanistic Judaism,” called the “Irgun L’Chozrim L’she’ila,” or “the organization for returnees to questioning.” Then as now, the Jerusalem Report wasn’t known to be especially pro-religion, and the article practically fawned over this wonderful new group.

What the “Irgun” did was offer charedim free shelter and help them understand things like the bus system, so they could get jobs. For those of us who don’t look upon charedim as benighted simpletons, this should already raise a red flag. But here’s the more salient detail: the soon-to-be-ex-charedim interviewed were all fifteen or sixteen years old.

This was an organization not content to merely “influence” minors—it actively assisted them in running away from home. Meretz, far from condemning their efforts, actively collaborated with the Movement for Secular Humanistic Judaism at the time.

Israel sounds like it is going down the same misguided path that America has been going down for the past 40 years. The eradication of religion and American values and culture has not served America well.

elchonon--Did the article say why so many Israeli students want to work in the U.S.? I kind of don't understand that. In America working abroad is generally viewed (with a few exceptions) as hurting your career growth. Also, a lot of the Israelis working here seem to be working at jobs that are beneath their level of education, probably because their English, while good, isn't good enough. Do Israeli students realize that?

i don't think it is fair to say that religion in israel is being eradicated. the religious were never a majority in the new yishuv and if anything my impression is that the reglious are growing.

i'm also not sure if you can make an analogy between america and israel and the religious/secular divide is much sharper in the latter.

even if israelis are working beneath their education here (and many by the way are not), they still make more $ and have more opportunities for advancement than they would in israel (sorry jameel). what is funny is that look down on in israel as avodah shechorah they are willing to do here in america.

how many religious jews are actually enticed by the Movement for Secular Humanistic Judaism and other similar groups? are they really a threat?and if they are, don't blame them, blame the communities that their "converts" come from. religion in israel, as in america, is a marketplace. individuals assisted by the Movement for Secular Humanistic Judaism et al probably had issues with religous life to begin with that were being responded to properly. they simply see secular life as a better alternative.

i feel the same way about missionaries in america who prey on uneducated jews. it is not that the missioanries are pulling jews away from judaism. these jews did not feel anything holding them there because the community was negligent.

i posted on hillel, which assists ex-haredis, at http://agmk.blogspot.com/2006/09/haredim-and-hillel.html

good analysis and comparison. But does Chaim Oron really care what the people who would contact him think? His constituents are worried about their children being returned to teshuva not the other way around...

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