(15-05-2015 05:56 PM)Szuchow Wrote: From my standpoint sin is idiotic concept as it's offence to imaginary tyrant and/or harm done to real person, i.e. sin is not going to church and harming others. But sure Shoah certainly is bad, though calling it sin doesen't change anything.

As for William Lane Craig it's bullshit. One who is indoctrinated may believe such nonsense but to any sensible person Shoah is definite proof of benevolent god being nothing more than fairy tale.

On what basis are you delivering judgment? It cannot be foreknowledge, that is, you don't know what greater evils God might be forestalling by allowing other, lesser evils. It cannot be omniscience or even omni-benevolence, because I have a $1 U.S. that says if you insist all suffering is evil, you have caused someone before to suffer intentionally before.

But are you imply[/i]ing that if we can find evidence of Jesus/God stepping in to end events like the Shoah, that such is sufficient evidence that God cares for us?

On basis of seeing your bullshit for what it really is - trying to weasel god you believe in from responsibility. And yes, certainly god permitted Shoah to happen to avoid greater evil. It appears omnipotence isn't what it used to be. Also calling Shoah lesser evil (if only potentially), well I'm impressed.

As for proof - no, it would be only a good start. Shoah is sadly only one of many tragedies.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

(18-05-2015 10:22 AM)jennybee Wrote: Why would a loving God want to hide himself from anybody? Why set up the world to look as though no God exists and then turn around and torture people for eternity for not believing in Him? If this is really the case--is this omnipotent being truly the definition of Love?

Why would a loving person hide from a loving being? How does a love relationship "work" when one partner curses the other, refuses to read their letters and documents sent to them, and holds anger/enmity against the other?

I loved God as a Christian. I have never cursed God and I have read *his* book from cover to cover many times over. I have even read other books that try and make sense of his words--ones written by scholars from both sides of the spectrum. I had problems figuring out his word as a christian and it wasn't from lack of believing/trying. Why would a good god make it so hard for anyone to make sense of what is found in the pages of his book?

(18-05-2015 10:26 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote: Why would a loving person hide from a loving being? How does a love relationship "work" when one partner curses the other, refuses to read their letters and documents sent to them, and holds anger/enmity against the other?

I loved God as a Christian. I have never cursed God and I have read *his* book from cover to cover many times over. I have even read other books that try and make sense of his words--ones written by scholars from both sides of the spectrum. I had problems figuring out his word as a christian and it wasn't from lack of believing/trying. Why would a good god make it so hard for anyone to make sense of what is found in the pages of his book?

Cause he want to test your faith, after all

Quote:Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.

Or cause he don't exist. I think it's somewhat more plausible explanation

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

I'm sorry if it seems coldhearted, but I'm attempting to sort for you the intellectual problem of evil from the emotional problem of evil. I recognize that all victims of the Shoah will be compensated in the world to come, and all perpetrators of the Shoah will be punished in the world to come.

What you are really doing is making a statement that you know (by what special knowledge, I'm uncertain) that no suffering is good at any time, for any reason. Was the effort of the Allies to end the Shoah good, then? Of course it was--which means you believe in a concept of just war. There were Jewish allied soldiers and Gentile friends who died to put Hitler and Tojo down. Their kin felt their suffering had real, objective meaning.

And once you demonstrate your own special knowledge and omniscience, you can sit in judgment over an omniscient, omnipotent being. Till then...

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.

I'm sorry if it seems coldhearted, but I'm attempting to sort for you the intellectual problem of evil from the emotional problem of evil. I recognize that all victims of the Shoah will be compensated in the world to come, and all perpetrators of the Shoah will be punished in the world to come.

Really, can you prove they will be compensated in the world to come? Can you show us this world in which they are compensated, but not merely "promised"? Can you show us the world in which they'll be punished?

(19-05-2015 10:10 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote: What you are really doing is making a statement that you know (by what special knowledge, I'm uncertain) that no suffering is good at any time, for any reason. Was the effort of the Allies to end the Shoah good, then? Of course it was--which means you believe in a concept of just war. There were Jewish allied soldiers and Gentile friends who died to put Hitler and Tojo down. Their kin felt their suffering had real, objective meaning.

If you think WW2 was just about saving the Jews, then you have the wrong idea about that war.

(19-05-2015 10:10 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote: And once you demonstrate your own special knowledge and omniscience, you can sit in judgment over an omniscient, omnipotent being. Till then...

Once you demonstrate that there is an omniscient and omnipotent being, then we can talk about what special knowledge he has.

Just remember, God and Satan are playing a game where God lets Satan fuck with us to try to get us to be reasonable. That way God can reward the crazies who will believe wild, far-out fairytales, with eternal heaven, while all reasonable and rational people are sent hell where they belong.

I think God, not Satan, gave us the background for science, logic and evidence. I think Satan is delighted when Christians are anti-science or when non-Christians worship science instead of the Creator.

I also think, and this is the Bible's stance (unless you have a different interpretation?) that God hides Himself from skeptics and reveals Himself to all who are wanting... more.

Funny how you begin each claim with "I think". Come on now Q, when are you going to realize that until you can provide evidence that god and satan exist, and that you know exactly how they operate and think, you look like a silly and childish fool.

Christians should embrace more science, non-christians should have less emphasis on science and embrace the creator so satan is not happy - you are loony man! What a shame that you believe this and encourage children to believe this. Nothing but speculation, imagination, and lies. Once again you are a liar.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —

I'm sorry if it seems coldhearted, but I'm attempting to sort for you the intellectual problem of evil from the emotional problem of evil. I recognize that all victims of the Shoah will be compensated in the world to come, and all perpetrators of the Shoah will be punished in the world to come.

What you are really doing is making a statement that you know (by what special knowledge, I'm uncertain) that no suffering is good at any time, for any reason. Was the effort of the Allies to end the Shoah good, then? Of course it was--which means you believe in a concept of just war. There were Jewish allied soldiers and Gentile friends who died to put Hitler and Tojo down. Their kin felt their suffering had real, objective meaning.

And once you demonstrate your own special knowledge and omniscience, you can sit in judgment over an omniscient, omnipotent being. Till then...

No, we are sitting in judgment on the fictional character in a storybook.

Once you demonstrate some evidence of the actual existence of that character in reality, then the discussion can become meaningful.

Until then, it's just sound and fury.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.

I'm sorry if it seems coldhearted, but I'm attempting to sort for you the intellectual problem of evil from the emotional problem of evil. I recognize that all victims of the Shoah will be compensated in the world to come, and all perpetrators of the Shoah will be punished in the world to come.

What you are really doing is making a statement that you know (by what special knowledge, I'm uncertain) that no suffering is good at any time, for any reason. Was the effort of the Allies to end the Shoah good, then? Of course it was--which means you believe in a concept of just war. There were Jewish allied soldiers and Gentile friends who died to put Hitler and Tojo down. Their kin felt their suffering had real, objective meaning.

And once you demonstrate your own special knowledge and omniscience, you can sit in judgment over an omniscient, omnipotent being. Till then...

You recognize? You are just indoctrinated into believing that some sort of justice await in afterlife. It's nothing more than fairy tale.

As for suffering of the Jews it served no higher meaning, they suffered cause Nazis wanted them to suffer. You just try to weasel god you was indoctrinated to believe in from responsibility.

And you can prove that such being exist. Until then...

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.