Jacob: So... at what point did you decide to play the very patient good guy?Edward: When I saw how much it was hurting her to make her choose. It's not usually this difficult to control. I can smother the... less civilized feelings I may have for you fairly easily most of the time. Sometimes I think she sees through me, but I can't be sure.

I stand by my original post. Also, Jacob mentioned that he had a plan, but Edward didn't (to be clear- a plan to fight to win Bella). If anyone was playing harder to get Bella, it was Jacob- not Edward. As Jacob says, "I'm not working with your advantages- advantages like her knowing she's in love with you."

Where do you see Jacob telling Edward about playing the nice guy, and Edward agreeing?

Also, your last paragraph confuses me. "By the way Edward was never OK with Bella going to La Push except when he was not able to be there himself to protect her." So... he was okay with Bella going to La Push when he was able to be there to protect her? But he couldn't be there due to the treaty...

And in my opinion, Edward does accept that Bella is safe going to La Push. As he tells Jacob (in a continuation of the quote above): "...We all have our moments of doubt. Mostly I was worried that she'd hurt herself trying to sneak away to see you. After I'd accepted that she was more or less safe with you- as safe as Bella ever is- it seemed best to stop driving her to extremes." (Emphasis mine.)

[color=#FF0000]Leavign Bella is by defintion an act of control, albeit not the best decision he is ever to make. I truly think his leaving is a knee jerk reaction that not all the Cullen's agreed with but did support for Edwards sake.Well how can you call an intelligent, selfless decision of loving someone more than anything, and by loving them so much it comes down to either you leaving or you staying and putting the person you love in more danger? I just don't see your way of thinking its just not logical. It took Edward days to make that decision because he was going to leave the best thing that ever happened to him. How is that controling when the person you love has blinders on? Did your parents tell you something that you didn't like but when you think about it now it was for your own good?[/color]

>diane771, I don’t see his leaving as an intelligent, selfless decision of loving someone more than anything. Rather, I see it as a selfish, self serving act that puts Bella in harms way. He was not able to deal with the situation anymore and just decided without her input to run away. Selfless, how on earth is his leaving selfless? Destructive, harmful and immature maybe but selfless, I just can follow that logic at all. Loving someone more that anything is about finding a way to make things work, not running away from hard times.

Yes my parent told me many things that I didn’t understand at the time. An old wise tail that holds water goes like this. From the ages of 14 to 24 your parents seem to be the stupidest people on the earth and from the age of 25 on they are simply brilliant.

Let us come to a straight out the book point that is not disputable. Edward is a bad guy. Yep, I said it. He states it often in Twilight; he admits he wanted to kill Bella on more than one occasion. He admits to murder. He commits grand theft. These are facts that are not disputable. I for one think his leaving Bella in NM a high crime. His selfish attitude nearly cost Bella her life to Lawrence and later to Victoria. It was only due to the fates that she lived at all. So, to me he is a bad guy, albeit with some good traits. I’m sure this section will get some responses. I look forward to seeing fact based opinions on this…

[color=#0000FF]Edward had killed people before, but he had changed, he never killed someone just for food, Don't you believe people can change?? Yes he told Bella that he wanted to kill her, to me that is a man who is honest enough to let them know how he feels, and yet she saw the good in him and said it didn't matter. Did he ever try and kill her? No ! A high crime as I said before if he stayed and something happened to Bella then you would be saying why didn't he leave after his own brother tried to attack her. So there is no way to please you, but Edward did the right thing and stop saying he left for selfish reasons that is just not true. Yes Laurant did come back and he would have come back anyway even if Edward was there. Since you say Edward was so controling I guess he would have been her 24 hr round the clock jailer and keeping her locked up so she couldn't be away from him, that way Laurant couldn't kill her. She fell for Edward first, she encouraged the relationship, he told her the truth about himself killing and all the dirty laundry, but it didn't matter to Bella so those are the facts Dark Knight. So what other "facts" are you going to tell me about Edward that I know or don't know about in your reading, and I do agree everybody has their opinions and Everybody see's their favorite character in a different light, and this is good and I mean not to demean your thoughts about Edward and Bella, but only show you my feelings and also facts that are in the book and what I stated are facts, I did state opinions of mine if Edward had stayed but the way you go on about how Edward was so wrong about leaving there are two sides to a coin.[/color]

Yes I think people can change but that does not relieve them of the acts they have already committed. They are personally responsible for their actions both good and bad. It’s about consequences and atonement you might be looking for here. Are you trying to talk to atonement when you speak of Edward?

I do see it as a high crime for him to leave for the one reason that his action caused such harm. diane771 you state, “So there is no way to please you,” well that’s not true. If he stayed and nothing happened to kill Bella from his mistake I would be satisfied.

You have to admit, Edward was around Bella nearly 24 hours a day with just a few exceptions. I would not call him a jailor but rather maybe a guard of sort, I believe she calls him her personal guardian angle. She would not have been in the meadow by herself if Edward had not left.

It’s mentioned in the books several times that Bella has poor judgement about her self preservation. Edward’s states something like, “Accident prone don’t cover it, more like trouble magnet.” I will admit that love has not bounds and that in this case it has blinders too.

diane771, you are welcome to think of Edward in anyway you like. That’s the fun of these discussions, seeing from alternative view points. I can only hope you didn’t get too hot under the collar.

The Dark Knight wrote:By this point in the series Edward has already given into her becoming a vamp and is just trying to by time for her not to miss too much out on being human. Remember he is under a deadline agreement that she has with Carlisle that he thinks he cannot change. He has the lemons and is just trying to make lemonade now.

I have never seen it that way. I still don't think he totally gave in to her being a vampire till it became a choice between that and death during the pregnancy. He always wanted her to have a full human experience (and I will always love the irony in how that worked out) and I think he still wanted to string her along for as long as possible in the hope that she would want to do more and more while still human. He had definite religious views that she was trying to change but I don't feel that she had succeeded by the time of her transformation. He transformed her for selfish reasons rather than any change of belief. He already new that he couldn't live without her again and this was his only alternative to that.

The Dark Knight wrote:By this point in the series Edward has already given into her becoming a vamp and is just trying to by time for her not to miss too much out on being human. Remember he is under a deadline agreement that she has with Carlisle that he thinks he cannot change. He has the lemons and is just trying to make lemonade now.

I have never seen it that way. I still don't think he totally gave in to her being a vampire till it became a choice between that and death during the pregnancy. He always wanted her to have a full human experience (and I will always love the irony in how that worked out) and I think he still wanted to string her along for as long as possible in the hope that she would want to do more and more while still human. He had definite religious views that she was trying to change but I don't feel that she had succeeded by the time of her transformation. He transformed her for selfish reasons rather than any change of belief. He already new that he couldn't live without her again and this was his only alternative to that.

Brumfondl, I can see your point. I think he was resigned it was going to happen but still held out hope that it would not. I liken it to, yah, I know the sun will be coming up in the east in the morning but maybe just maybe it will come up in the west instead. Kind of false hope that we sometimes give into.

First Dark Knight, I want to comment on the fact that you say that Edward was a bad guy and that leaving Bella was high crime. I couldn't disagree more. He was a vampire. It was in his nature to kill people. And still he resisted. He had a rebellious period, but who doesn't? I think what he did was admireable.And as for him leaving Bella...That can't be called a crime. He left her out of love. And you can't blame him for what happened when he was away. He couldn't know that Bella would be in the meadow alone and that Laurent would be there as well. he couldn't know that Vic would come back. He could only see bad things happening if he stayed. So going by that logic, he had to leave. This is like saying, if my boyfriend left me tomorrow and I got hit by a car on my way to work because he didn't drive me, than it would be his fault. Break ups happen, and people don't see the consequences of that. They have to leave it to fate.

The Dark Knight wrote:> I can’t argue that this maybe the point he finally came to this but when I re-read the chapter ‘The race’ he was making several statements that lead me to believe he had already decided to come back for her. It’s very hard to point a finger at anyone place in the book and say right here is when that decision happened. So you may be right but it happened in those few days for sure.

Yes, he was coming back. In my opinion Edward was a total mess while he was away. He even said that he was worse off than Bella, and that's saying a lot. He didn't spend time with his family, and he was generally unhappy. So I think he was trying to fight off the urge to go back, but he couldn't hold it for long. But even so, I don't think he made the decision to have Bella a part of his family at that point. I agree with Bromfondl on this one. Edward never really accepted that Bella would be come a vampire until it came down to either that or death. In my opinion, thats' when he realized that there were absolutely no other way. Before that, he still had hopes that he could change her mind. So I think that he wanted to return to Forks to be with her for the duration of her human life. It was a crazy idea, but that's what I think was going through his mind.

The Dark KnightThankfully ringswraith filled me in on the chapter in Eclipse. I don't have time to read it at the moment as real life gets in the way But I agree with his interpretation on this one. Edward didn't have a plan to play the nice guy. He just decided to lighten up and let Bella make her own choices. He saw that Bella was smart enough to make an informed choice as to whether she spent time with Jacob or not. And Edward made sure that he could see her off and pick her up.

> As I replied to ringswriath, I think he maybe wrong about the way he is remembering it. See my reply to him…Actually at that point they where engaged, so he didn’t fear Jacob winning anyway…

I did read you reply to rings, and his to you. And I still stand by my first opinion as well. Edward decided to let Bella go to La Push because he saw that having her go without him knowing would actually put her in more danger. And he also realized that Jacob was capable of protecting Bella. And I don't want to refer to it as "playing nice", I think he honestly wanted to "be nice" and do the right thing. That it wasn't part of some plan to make Bella his. And on top of that you have the fact that Bella was actually safer in La Push at times when Victoria was after her. So in my opinion, all this made him let Bella go to see Jacob.I know that they were engaged by the time of Fire & Ice. But Jacob made it pretty clear in the tent that he wasn't giving up. And somewhere in the back of Edward's mind was still the fear that maybe that would be better for Bella. So I don't think Edward was sure that he had Bella at that point, and certainly not when he saw how heartbroken she was after Jacob ran off.

The Dark Knight < Well if you’re going to leave out Edwards’s breaking point; we might as well leave out the point that he’s a vampire. To me they are huge factors that can’t be left out when looking at Bella and Edward’s relationship. Just for the record, I agree that Edward’s major motives are Bella’s safety, her happiness and then Edward & Bella forever, in this order. Well for the most part, there are a few places where they get a little gray at times which one comes first.

Of course I don't leave out the fact that he is going to kill himself if Bella dies. Edward says that several times in the saga, and he even attempts to do it in NM. So that is a major part of the love Edward has for Bella, and how their existences are stringed together. Cut one, cut both, like Bella said. But I wasn't talking about that in my previous point. Sorry if that didn't come through clear enough. That is his breaking point, no arguments there. The same as Bella has a breaking point for Edward dying. But in my opinion Bella has more breaking points than Edward has. Edward was capable of putting his own feelings aside, to do what he thought was best for her. He could leave. Bella never could, it would have broken her.

The Dark Knight Dovrebanen you say, “in my opinion, he would never manipulate her into anything.” I can not disagree with you more. The whole point to the chapter Compromise is about him manipulating her to get all of what he wants (the car, college and marriage). I’m not sure we can ever see eye to eye on this point if you think he is not manipulating her in this chapter…

Actually in Fire and Ice chapter he has already secured her hand. Also, I think he knows full well how Bella works, (her motives and her mode of operations). He is very clear. By this point in the series Edward has already given into her becoming a vamp and is just trying to by time for her not to miss too much out on being human. Remember he is under a deadline agreement that she has with Carlisle that he thinks he cannot change. He has the lemons and is just trying to make lemonade now.

I guess you and I put a different meaning into the word manipulation. Edward wanted her to marry him, and he hoped that it would delay her becoming a vampire. He would make love to her after she married him. Also a way of trying to delay. He wanted her to go to college..Trying to buy time. But Bella was fully aware of his intentions. She knew he didn't want her to rush into becoming a vampire. So I don't see it as manipulation, because Bella was fully informed on where Edward stood in the matter. She could make the choice to have Carlisle do it, or she could wait and Edward would do it. And he had promised. I find it only natural that he was buying time when he really didn't want his kind of life for her. And I think that Bella should realize that Edward needed a say in this as well.

Brumfondl wrote: He transformed her for selfish reasons rather than any change of belief. He already new that he couldn't live without her again and this was his only alternative to that.

He never wanted her to be a vampire. He changed her because she was dying. Anyone would do the same. And what about Charlie, what about Renee? If Edward didn't change her, she would be dead. What are they supposed to tell her parents? He had to think of the people she loved. Sure, he wanted her to live, so he could be with her, but thats small in comparison to the other reasons. Not many people would want to die at 18, with a child and a wonderful future ahead of them. And being that person that had control over her life at that point, would not want to throw it all away. Bella wouldn't want to die, and I think shes bloody thankful for what Edward did.I think changing her for his benefit was the last thing on his mind. Before the pregnancy, Edward did his best to prevent the transformation. I just don't see any selfishness in that.

^ by ForJazz"Theres a lot of like, feminist issues with the book. Like, 'Oh, she's so devoted to him' and well yeah, she's in love with him"- Kristen Stewart

Brumfondl wrote: He transformed her for selfish reasons rather than any change of belief. He already new that he couldn't live without her again and this was his only alternative to that.

He never wanted her to be a vampire. He changed her because she was dying. Anyone would do the same. And what about Charlie, what about Renee? If Edward didn't change her, she would be dead. What are they supposed to tell her parents? He had to think of the people she loved. Sure, he wanted her to live, so he could be with her, but thats small in comparison to the other reasons. Not many people would want to die at 18, with a child and a wonderful future ahead of them. And being that person that had control over her life at that point, would not want to throw it all away. Bella wouldn't want to die, and I think shes bloody thankful for what Edward did.I think changing her for his benefit was the last thing on his mind. Before the pregnancy, Edward did his best to prevent the transformation. I just don't see any selfishness in that.

What about them? If he had not changed Bella she would have died, there would be a lovely funeral and Renee and Charlie would have had closure and there would be none of the awkwardness with Charlie and the 'need to know' or the stringing along of Renee (cos we never find out what happens there). It would have been much easier on that front for Edward to have done nothing at all. Her parents already thought that Bella was extremely ill so death would have just been a logical, if unwanted, progression. Edward transformed Bella for HIM, not them. He finally realised that his choice was no choice at all. Bella knew she wasn't coming out of the pregnancy a live human and finally Edward had to come to the same conclusion and he did the only thing he could to keep her in his life. Everyt one else mattered not at all (ok cept maybe for Renesmee).

Brumfondl wrote: He transformed her for selfish reasons rather than any change of belief. He already new that he couldn't live without her again and this was his only alternative to that.

He never wanted her to be a vampire. He changed her because she was dying. Anyone would do the same. And what about Charlie, what about Renee? If Edward didn't change her, she would be dead. What are they supposed to tell her parents? He had to think of the people she loved. Sure, he wanted her to live, so he could be with her, but thats small in comparison to the other reasons. Not many people would want to die at 18, with a child and a wonderful future ahead of them. And being that person that had control over her life at that point, would not want to throw it all away. Bella wouldn't want to die, and I think shes bloody thankful for what Edward did.I think changing her for his benefit was the last thing on his mind. Before the pregnancy, Edward did his best to prevent the transformation. I just don't see any selfishness in that.

What about them? If he had not changed Bella she would have died, there would be a lovely funeral and Renee and Charlie would have had closure and there would be none of the awkwardness with Charlie and the 'need to know' or the stringing along of Renee (cos we never find out what happens there). It would have been much easier on that front for Edward to have done nothing at all. Her parents already thought that Bella was extremely ill so death would have just been a logical, if unwanted, progression. Edward transformed Bella for HIM, not them. He finally realised that his choice was no choice at all. Bella knew she wasn't coming out of the pregnancy a live human and finally Edward had to come to the same conclusion and he did the only thing he could to keep her in his life. Everyt one else mattered not at all (ok cept maybe for Renesmee).

I have to agree with Jadey. In my opinion Edward changed Bella because there was no other way. Was he supposed to let her die? Saving someone's life is never a selfish act in my opinion. And he saved her life, for her, for Renesmee and for Bella's family and his own family who also loved Bella. Of course he couldn't live without her. But he wouldn't have done that either. He already made arrangements with Jacob. He was going to let Jacob kill him if she died. I don't think Edward could ever face Charlie and Renee if he let Bella die, knowing that he could have saved her. It wouldn't be better for them if she died. They would have to struggle with that grief for the rest of their lives. At least now they would know that she was alive and happy. And she was in the end able to have some kind of a relationship with Charlie.At the point of Nessie's birth there was not other way, and Edward knew that, probably from early on in the pregnancy. So he had time to think about what to do. And of course there would never be any doubt in his mind if it came down to a direct choice between life and death. But in my opinion he didn't do it just for himself. He did it for everyone (including himself), because it was the only thing he could do. Had it not been a life threatening situation, Edward would have continued buying time because he didn't want her to join his world.

Brumfondl wrote: He transformed her for selfish reasons rather than any change of belief. He already new that he couldn't live without her again and this was his only alternative to that.

He never wanted her to be a vampire. He changed her because she was dying. Anyone would do the same. And what about Charlie, what about Renee? If Edward didn't change her, she would be dead. What are they supposed to tell her parents? He had to think of the people she loved. Sure, he wanted her to live, so he could be with her, but thats small in comparison to the other reasons. Not many people would want to die at 18, with a child and a wonderful future ahead of them. And being that person that had control over her life at that point, would not want to throw it all away. Bella wouldn't want to die, and I think shes bloody thankful for what Edward did.I think changing her for his benefit was the last thing on his mind. Before the pregnancy, Edward did his best to prevent the transformation. I just don't see any selfishness in that.

What about them? If he had not changed Bella she would have died, there would be a lovely funeral and Renee and Charlie would have had closure and there would be none of the awkwardness with Charlie and the 'need to know' or the stringing along of Renee (cos we never find out what happens there). It would have been much easier on that front for Edward to have done nothing at all. Her parents already thought that Bella was extremely ill so death would have just been a logical, if unwanted, progression. Edward transformed Bella for HIM, not them. He finally realised that his choice was no choice at all. Bella knew she wasn't coming out of the pregnancy a live human and finally Edward had to come to the same conclusion and he did the only thing he could to keep her in his life. Everyt one else mattered not at all (ok cept maybe for Renesmee).

I have to agree with Jadey. In my opinion Edward changed Bella because there was no other way. Was he supposed to let her die? Saving someone's life is never a selfish act in my opinion. And he saved her life, for her, for Renesmee and for Bella's family and his own family who also loved Bella. Of course he couldn't live without her. But he wouldn't have done that either. He already made arrangements with Jacob. He was going to let Jacob kill him if she died. I don't think Edward could ever face Charlie and Renee if he let Bella die, knowing that he could have saved her. It wouldn't be better for them if she died. They would have to struggle with that grief for the rest of their lives. At least now they would know that she was alive and happy. And she was in the end able to have some kind of a relationship with Charlie.At the point of Nessie's birth there was not other way, and Edward knew that, probably from early on in the pregnancy. So he had time to think about what to do. And of course there would never be any doubt in his mind if it came down to a direct choice between life and death. But in my opinion he didn't do it just for himself. He did it for everyone (including himself), because it was the only thing he could do. Had it not been a life threatening situation, Edward would have continued buying time because he didn't want her to join his world.

I agree with this person. I think that Carlisle was right when he said there was no other way. He said that since Edward had chosen that he couldn't live without Bella, and vise versa, that she had to be changed. He wasn't going to let her die. Letting her die was pretty much suicide in his case because we all knew that if Bella were to die that he would go back to Italy or some other place and end of getting himself killed. And when she was having the baby he wasn't just going to keep Renesmee and let Bella die, of course he was going to do everything in his power to save her. We all knew that was what Edward wanted for Bella but he knew she could do better and Bella wanted to be a Vampire more than anything, so in the sense they both wanted it more than anything. Plus Edward loves a chance to give Bella what she wants so this was another one of those opportunities. I always knew where the book was headed and i knew in the end she would become a Vampire because there was no way that Edward didn't love her enough to be a little selfish and change her. I don't think Edward would have kept buying time though because she would have eventually found a way to use her ability, when she was human; the ability where he melted under her fingers almost ( like with the marriage sex compromise), and he would have cracked and changed her.And plus he was going to do it in Eclipse anyways. I think it all worked out for the best.

They were not calling to me; they were letting me go, leaving me to the black universe I had wandered for so many lifetimes. It wasn't black at all, it was blue. Warm, vibrant, brilliant blue... i floated into it with no fear at all.Team Edward

The Dark Knight wrote:> As I replied to ringswriath, I think he maybe wrong about the way he is remembering it. See my reply to him…Actually at that point they where engaged, so he didn’t fear Jacob winning anyway…

The Dark Knight, the way you quote people is highly confusing. I can't tell when you're quoting someone or speaking for yourself, and so I only just now noticed this in one of your posts.

That's a very big assumption you make. And not one that I'm willing to take lightly. You've said yourself that these threads are for discussion; I am rather upset that you are calling my point of view on the matter "wrong." I've already acknowledged that my view differs from yours- that doesn't make it "wrong."

I've also put up another post on the matter, which I don't know if you've seen yet.