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It is not the same. As far as I understand, Ninjatrader has their own server at the CQG facility. Therefore I assume that they don't have the same redundant infrastructure as CQG, but I am not too familiar with their set-up. E.g., CQG separates real-time and historical data, thus further reducing latency.

CQG is arguably the best charting platform there is. You can do almost everything and their data is flawless. Their order routing is really good speed-wise, and you also have various "Smart Order" types. Connectivity with MATLAB and Excel via RTD. Functions like the Order Ticker and TFlow with Pre-Trade Analytics are quite useful. The Formula Toolbox makes it easy for non-programmers (like myself) to get started. The autospreader is supposedly very good, but I have not used it.

CTS is also rock solid, but it lacks some functionality such as ATM (pre-fixed targets for scaling), and I think their DOM "jumps" around too much. But it seems you can remedy those issues by wrapping Sierra Charts around it (?). Frankly, I'm surprised more don't use that combination. I assume it is because it's not that visually appealing as other options, but I prefer stability over aesthetics..
CTS offers great value. They even let you have access to their API for free. I have not used their historical data, so I can't comment on that.

Last edited by Lornz; September 11th, 2011 at 01:01 PM.
Reason: the agony of having English as a second language...

NinjaTrader can get unstable if the chart update interval goes below 200ms (5Hz). In fact, NinjaTrader only allows you to go as low as 100ms (10Hz). Some platforms update in "real-time" or at least much faster intervals. Sierra Chart, for the sake of comparison, allows refresh intervals of up to 40ms (25Hz); which, obviously, is much faster than NinjaTrader. Sierra Chart is also far more stable and resource efficient from my personal experience.

If your methodology does not rely on lightning fast data delivery, then you would probably be OK with most retail feeds and platforms. However, anybody that trades, in any capacity, should be concerned about stability. NinjaTrader does not have the best reputation in that arena. Let me put it this way: No professional trader (that I personally know) uses, or would use NinjaTrader. Just sayin....

It's ultimately up to the user to decide what suits them.

All this sounds like very subjective bias. Problems you are describing are non existent in real life situations as they are not backed by reality facts/needs. Look at your internet latency in ms (use ping for that) and you will see how many ms approx your feed is lagging (that's best possible scenario) plus processing delay of your PC. Even if you have strategy that places orders, meaning reaction to price data is "immediate" you will still have outgoing tcp/ip latency, not mentioning data server processing delay to accept you order. All that exceeds your 100ms for sure. And no so called professional rely on microsecond order deliveries, even on banks. They trade big blocks that take time to fill. That inventory lurks for long time in market, so even 1second delay to enter/exit means nothing. The only exceptional category of "professionals" are HFT robots, but AFAIK these do not use ordinary PC's and ordinary links to exchanges. These use custom hardware and custom chips to move orders and calculate logic.

Second, where did you get those funny HZ numbers for charting? It's obvious, that the faster 64bit pc you have the better it will crunch anything and HZ number will change. Even if we suppose that NT7charting code is slow running NT7 64bit on faster machine completely nullifies this delay. Usually not a chart but indicators on it lag and slow chart then. On fast machine you should be unable to differentiate any chart formation differences on any platform so where is problem then? I would like to see real life profiling information on chart speeds for NT7 vs MC, SC, I/RT, etc until then it's all marketing speculations. Btw. personally I got impression that "Professional" CQG trader is slower that NT7. And yes, I know a lot o professionals that use NT7.

Third I'd like to see person who is capable reading and reacting (taking orders) on 100ms chart. If you have strategy that trades at those speeds (would like to learn logic and scripting language of it ) your chart can show slower dataseries and strategy can use faster internal dataseries.

Last edited by andrewtrader; September 11th, 2011 at 09:56 AM.
Reason: typo

Talking about the chart display update interval of NinjaTrader is completely irrelevant.
OnBarUpdate() processes incoming ticks much faster and so does the DOM. The chart update interval is only used to to redraw the active charts for visual information. That is just the screen output.

Irrelevant to you, perhaps, but not to me as I often trade directly from chart information; bypassing the DOM. The chart speed differential between NinjaTrader, Sierra Chart, T4, and CQG Integrated Client, is observably different. Why limit one's self?

Why would I want to set a display update interval to 100 msec. I do not require that my chart updates 10 times per second. Trading is not a video game and I am not sitting in front of my screens with a joystick!

You are trying to impose your needs on me, and others here. If you don't need speed, fine. There is no need to imply that others can't make use of it.

A display update interval of 500 msec is more than enough.

For you, apparently it is 'more than enough'. Price moves a lot faster than 2Hz a healthy portion of the time, so I beg to differ.

Further reducing the display update interval draws on the CPU without any benefits, so why should I do that? I am not astonished that you run into stability problems.

I'm rather surprised, that you of all traders here, would insist there is no benefit to updating data faster than 2x/second. Again, 2Hz may be sufficient for you, but it certainly is not for all. Anyway, other platforms can handle faster update intervals perfectly well, why can't NinjaTrader? This is precisely my concern. NinjaTrader is not as stable as other platforms under higher demand. This speaks to me.

I understand that you and many others here use NinjaTrader, and obviously I have offended you, and undoubtedly others, (not at all my intent) so I will just go my merry way. Enjoy your NinjaTrader....

All this sounds like very subjective bias. Problems you are describing are non existent in real life situations as they are not backed by reality facts/needs.

The problems are evident, demonstrable, and readily observable.

Look at your internet latency in ms (use ping for that) and you will see how many ms approx your feed is lagging (that's best possible scenario) plus processing delay of your PC.

Ping is not a good way to measure latency. That is getting too far off topic, however, to explain why.

Even if you have strategy that places orders, meaning reaction to price data is "immediate" you will still have outgoing tcp/ip latency, not mentioning data server processing delay to accept you order. All that exceeds your 100ms for sure. And no so called professional rely on microsecond order deliveries, even on banks.

Do you think most professional traders, banks, or other instututional traders use NinjaTrader? No, they do not.

They trade big blocks that take time to fill. That inventory lurks for long time in market, so even 1second delay to enter/exit means nothing. The only exceptional category of "professionals" are HFT robots, but AFAIK these do not use ordinary PC's and ordinary links to exchanges. These use custom hardware and custom chips to move orders and calculate logic.

Second, where did you get those funny HZ numbers for charting? It's obvious, that the faster 64bit pc you have the better it will crunch anything and HZ number will change.

Where did I get those 'funny Hz numbers'? From basic arithmetic, my friend. NinjaTrader suggests an update interval of no less than 200ms (5Hz). They do allow users to adjust down to 100ms (10Hz), maximum. What does this mean? It means that they set the clock to update 5-10x/second. The processor cannot change that, regardless of its speed. By the way, 64-bit computing has nothing, at all, to do with the speed of a processor. If you are going to argue with someone, I highly suggest you come armed with requisite knowledge before doing so.

Even if we suppose that NT7charting code is slow running NT7 64bit on faster machine completely nullifies this delay.

Ummm, no.

Usually not a chart but indicators on it lag and slow chart then. On fast machine you should be unable to differentiate any chart formation differences on any platform so where is problem then? I would like to see real life profiling information on chart speeds for NT7 vs MC, SC, I/RT, etc until then it's all marketing speculations.

What marketing speculation? I've done the testing personally. If you want to see what I refer to, test the platforms that I have yourself.

Btw. personally I got impression that "Professional" CQG trader is slower that NT7. And yes, I know a lot o professionals that use NT7.

Impression? That's a bit subjective, don't you think? I live and operate in Chicago, arguably the commodity trading capital of the world. I do not know a single professional commodity/futures trader here who trades from NinjaTrader. Not one. NinjaTrader is not in the same league as CQG, sorry to say.

Third I'd like to see person who is capable reading and reacting (taking orders) on 100ms chart. If you have strategy that trades at those speeds (would like to learn logic and scripting language of it ) your chart can show slower dataseries and strategy can use faster internal dataseries.

When a chart updates at a limited interval, it necessarily, at times, must skip information to keep pace. The point is about limiting one's self. Why do it? If one has a choice between seeing as much information as possible, vs only some, why choose only 'some'? Many platforms outperform NinjaTrader in terms of both reliability and speed. NinjaTrader's instability concerns are widely discussed here and in other fora. If serious, why would anybody want anything less than the best for their money? The fact is, most go to NinjaTrader because its easily accessible and highly marketed. Many stay with NinjaTrader because they can share indicator after indicator with their peers. It is not because NinjaTrader is the platform of choice for professionals; because it isn't.

Lornz, I did compare CQG Trader (through AMP Trading) and CQG Integrated Client (through CQG directly) and observed no difference in visible latency, using their respective DOMs. I cannot at all, speak to the back-end of the implementation. Thanks for the information.

Also, the jumping on the CTS DOM of which you speak, is likely related to their buffering levels. You need their 'FastSmart/FastTrade' buffer to get the fastest data from them. This comes with the $200/mo package. The basic, $25 package, includes 'Normal/Smart' buffering which does filter DOM data. The Sierra Chart implementation uses 'FastTrade' which is unbuffered/unfiltered.

I agree on aesthetics vs performance. Sierra Chart, in particular, could be 'prettier', but it is very efficient and highly functional. It is also rather inexpensive.

I too am surprised more do not take advantage of it, as made obvious in my posts.

Lornz

It is not the same. As far as I understand, Ninjatrader has their own server at the CQG facility. Therefore I assume that they don't have the same redundant infrastructure as CQG, but I am not too familiar with their set-up. E.g., CQG separates real-time and historical data, thus further reducing latency.

CQG is arguably the best charting platform there is. You can do almost everything and their data is flawless. Their order routing is really good speed-wise, and you also have various "Smart Order" types. Connectivity with MATLAB and Excel via RTD. Functions like the Order Ticker and TFlow with Pre-Trade Analytics are quite useful. The Formula Toolbox makes it easy for non-programmers (like myself) to get started. The Autospreader is supposedly very good, but I have not used it.

CTS is also rock solid, but it lacks some functionality such as ATM (pre-fixed targets for scaling), and I think their DOM "jumps" around too much. But it seems you can remedy those by wrapping Sierra Charts around it (?). Frankly, I'm surprised more don't use that combination. I assume it is because it's not that visually appealing as other options, but I prefer stability over aesthetics..
CTS offers great value, though. They even let you have access to their API for free. I have not used their historical data, so I can't comment on that.

Sierra Chart, in its default form, is not the prettiest software ever conceived. It is highly configurable though, and can be adjusted to look rather appealing. That aside, it is quite efficient and fairly priced. It has been far more stable for me than NinjaTrader ever was, for my purposes. I believe it is coded only in C++. CTS T4, however, is coded in .NET/C++. I agree that the usability of Sierra Chart needs some work. It is not as intuitive as it could be.

dtman

I personally don't know about the server sided order or client side, but I will ask the president of AMP futures monday morning. I'm am interested in this Sierra charts that you talk about. I really don't know that much about it. If I understand some other forums correctly. Sierra is built on .NET. which is cool for C# programmers. However, the first and last time I used opened up sierra I felt like I was opening up an old windows 3.1 program. I didn't 'feel' it and as I recalled switching markets was way to long of a process for me. So I left it. I will definitely look at it again. Has it changed at all in the last 2 years?

Last edited by zer0; September 11th, 2011 at 12:53 PM.
Reason: added information

Also, the jumping on the CTS DOM of which you speak, is likely related to their buffering levels. You need their 'FastSmart/FastTrade' buffer to get the fastest data from them. This comes with the $200/mo package. The basic, $25 package, includes 'Normal/Smart' buffering which does filter DOM data. The Sierra Chart implementation uses 'FastTrade' which is unbuffered/unfiltered.
.

Ok, thanks for clearing that up. I've only used the $25 package as a back-up.

It's hard to beat the X_Trader DOM, though. Add CQG IC for charting, and you got the ideal setup for intraday discretionary trading (imo). If you can stomach the $4000 a month, that is... (I can't)

I am interested in how you trade to see the big differences you are talking about. I have only traded with NT, TS, SC and agree that SC is the most stable of those 3, but boy is it a pain to work with. TS is the most user-friendly, but slow and NT is the middle for me.

Never even heard of CQG, but will check it out. Seems interesting. I just look at how I trade and it would only impact me in very fast moving markets of which I tend to stay out. Very curious on how you trade to where it makes a substantial difference. I find that enlightening.

What does everyone think for the cqg feed provided through Ninjatrader. Is it just like the feed that CQG provides to its clients at $2100/month or what the difference?

They just about mirror each other. I use CQG Trader for my order entry via DOMTrader and I use Ninja for my charting. If your concern is simply the efficiency of order routing and execution without any special order types, I'm sure Ninja's DOM is just fine. If you're concern is latency, I doubt there's any difference really to hinder your trading ability. My preference for using CQG's DOM Trader is simply for the order types and features that are non-existent through NT.

I've used all sorts of platforms in the past including Bloomberg and I've found that my current combination of CQG + NT works perfectly for what I'm looking to accomplish while keeping my overhead fairly low (this is a business we're running). Hope this helps with your question.

My preference for using CQG's DOM Trader is simply for the order types and features that are non-existent through NT.

Can you list a few examples?

I'm using Sierra Chart DOM in combination with MultiCharts charting, and a little SC charting (for CDV). I really like their DOM for the most part, it lets me do what I want.

Mike

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