Is paleo community running on fatism?

I'm quite dedicated to the paleo movement, to the health benefits, and the science behind. I love evolution, I am interested in a lot of things connected to all of that.

But I am also very strong opponent of blaming or judging fat people. I am a supporter of the "Health at Every Size" movement, and against the constant media crazy against any kind of fat visible under a microscope.

Just about an hour ago I was very happy to see the Surgeon General mini-youtube (you may see it here, on my blog) in which she announced emphasis on health, and positive conversation about the issues of obesity. She also mentioned that we can be healthy at any size.

I welcomed it with relief. Finally the end of crazy obsession with fighting obesity, where everyone feels free to share opinions on fat person's health, diet, exercises, philosophy, morals, will power and ability to be honest or do work well, after only shortly seeing her/him on the street/tv show/photo. This is injustice and a horrible way to teach about health and healthy nutrition.

When I saw the entry about this lady on Free the Animal post, I was happy to join, naively expecting similarly positive reactions. The nasty jokes, epithets and name calling shocked me. Almost all the commentators joined the choir. I found it snotty, arrogant and very judgmental.

Is that the norm? Is fat hating so typical in paleo community? Do we really still judge person's skills, knowledge, experience, intelligence, competence and variety of other traits needed for such position by the looks? Did the fact that she is a fat woman (even though to me she is rather chubby than fat or "obese") helped the attack? Was it really so enjoyable to join the male choir of low jokes about "General Ding Dong"?
I know nothing about her health. I've seen many photos of women in her age from hunter gatherer communities who were similarly chubby, rounded.
The same as I know nothing about the health of some random skinny stranger. Would that person be more qualified just because he/she happened to be skinny?

ETA: "Healthy at any size" means: be HEALTHY at whatever size you are, not "ANY SIZE IS HEALTHY". It means focus on health, human worth and dignity, not size. Don't obsess with dieting, fads, excessive exercising or guilt for the looks, but make sure you feel healthy, your body works fine, you eat healthy things, and the weight will adjust.

Mini-Rant:
As an overweight person who has an extremely hard time losing weight, even while on Paleo/Primal, I am appalled at the judgmental attitudes and cruelty of some in the Paleo community.
It's a fact that some people, (especially women over 40,) who eat low-carb/Paleo/Primal WILL STILL have a hard time losing weight, even if their diet is perfect and even if their activities line up with Paleo principles.
This could be due to a broken metabolism, thyroid issues, yo-yo dieting, or some other health problem that they don't share with you, so don't assume it's because they are lazy and

The idea of what is 'normal' is changing. Watching a TV programme about the 60s there was a scene on the beach and everyone - I mean everyone - was what we would now call skinny. That does not mean they were healthy of course and I think people should have more muscle than they had. Similarly in the Perfect Health Diet there is a picture of a 'fat man' who used to tour with a freak show in the late 19th century and people paid money to look it him. No-one would give him a second glance today. I don't believe in blaming or abusing fat people - the issue is the system.

"n a way, maybe SAD fat people are the lucky ones, since they at least have smack-you-in-the-face obvious evidence of un-health, with very motivating lifestyle benefits to be had by going paleo."
I think that point is bang on. It is a heck of a lot more challenging to convince people who are "thin" to change their lifestyle. But the best convincing that any of us can do is do lead by example.

Just because she is an M.D. should we automatically assume she knows more about the metabolism of obesity? The mere fact that so many doctors prescribe more carbs for for overweight or diabetic people screams loudly that they know little (or forgot much) about basic human metabolism and biochemistry.

Resistance training has little to no effect on VO2 max, there are many VO2 max nonresponders because of the genetic component, and some other stuff. I couldn't find a peer-reviewed article off-hand, but there's this...http://www.sport-fitness-advisor.com/VO2max.html

VO2 max is WAY increased by long distance running, cycling, or skiing. It is only moderately increased by more paleo activities like walking, hiking, moving moderately sized object, and playing light sports. I don't think it's a great indicator of fitness with regard to us paleos, because how often would cavemen approach maximal oxygen consumption? Not as often as Greg Lemond or Steve Prefontaine. Running isn't life, being happy with pleasant moderate movement is more reflective of paleo life.

High intensity exercise... Any exercise really leads to a good VO2. It wilm determine fitness, where the a1c more diet. A cortisol/adrenal test to round it out then. Overall health is going to include diet and aerobic health... I think excessive cardio is real, but in the same thread alot of paleo use it to be lazy.

At the risk of being argumentative again...VO2 max?? That's a marker of aerobic fitness, not overall health. Unless there truly aren't better markers of overall health, it doesn't seem like a great one. Chronic cardio leads to incredible VO2 max! My VO2 max is probably at an all-time low.

I do take anti-anxiety and anti-depression meds. I wish I could get off them. I will when I can, but for now? I am so happy what the meds did for me, and I am not going back to what my life was like two and more years ago. Body heals slowly, I was abusing it for over thirty years, I can't expect miracles. My asthma also didn't go away, just yet. I would prefer to pay the producer than die of asthma attack, but feeling superior and righteous.

Couldn't agree more with that. I believe that is the crux of the issue. We as the paleo community are unable to determine whether or not any other person is eating a healthy diet trying to improve themselves just by their appearance be it skinny or obese. As a health community we should welcome others not ridicule them.

I think the paleo community is way better than most people, because we at least aren't blaming the fat people for being gluttonous/lazy, instead we feel sorry for them. Try reading the comments on any online news article about obesity, those commenters can get *nasty*. Richard's commentary pales in comparison, in my opinion.

contentious indeed, it's my strong opinion and I'm sticking to it. Patrik already responded how I would about your pill comment. I'm 100% in the fix the cause camp, it's why I eat paleo... If I just wanted to lose weight and not be healthy. Pills can supress my appetite... Won't fix the problem. I say the same for Most everything under the sun. Humans are incredible self healing machines when we don't gum up the works

And I sure hope commentors would have the liberty to argue against Stephen's original point: "With the exception of acute illnesses that result in immediate harm, I'm vehemently opposed to pills. The mitochondrial, metabolic, and hormonal Damage resulting can't be any better for you than bad food." (Nothing against you Stephen--its a very contentious issue!)

Whoah whoah...this is NOT for argument's sake. Nobody said pills have to cure or prevent disease--See the previous few comments. My aunt's mom has been schizophrenic since she was little, and would not be able to function without pills. My friend was born without a thyroid and needs pills. I have a bleeding disorder and need stuff in case of emergencies. My job is reviewing meta-analyses of medical treatments. There are, luckily, many things that pills work quite well for, compared to alternatives.

Kamal, I think BMI is fine for reasonably large cohorts, crummy for individuals... can we agree on that? As in, I resent getting my BMI measured for health insurance incentives whereby my premiums would be lower if my BMI were lower. Why can't they just measure my deadlift and my 500m rowing time?

@Kamal -- C'mon...you know as well as I do, pills do NOT work "quite well" for either cancer or schizophrenia. They treat the symptom, not the cause. Can pills help and provide a tremendous amount of relief or help a person cope? FUCK YES! But again, they aren't working "quite well" in terms of curing or preventing. That is why both you and I think Paleo as a paradigm makes sense.
Last thing, your contributions ARE VALUED but please (pleasepleasepleasepleaseplease) refrain from being argumentative for argument's sake.

It doesn't look like I summarized or repeated your comment, that I'm aware of. Nobody at my workplace eats paleo, and they are all MD/PhDs. They all have much much MORE knowledge about obesity than I do, but just didn't put the pieces together when it comes to their own diet. If that's what you were getting at, then my apologies for recapitulating.

Read more: Is paleo community running on fatism? - Paleo Hacks.com
It doesn't look like I summarized or repeated your comment, that I'm aware of. Nobody at my workplace eats paleo, and they are all MD/PhDs. They all have much much MORE knowledge about obesity than I do, but just didn't put the pieces together when it comes to their own diet. If that's what you were getting at, then my apologies for recapitulating.

It doesn't look like I summarized or repeated your comment, that I'm aware of. Nobody at my workplace eats paleo, and they are all MD/PhDs. They all have much much more knowledge about obesity than I do, but just didn't put the pieces together when it comes to their own diet. If that's what you were getting at, then my apologies for recapitulating.

Patrik- that depends on what the field is. As a physician, Regina probably knows more about the metabolism of obesity than paleohackers, but less about the practical effects of diet on obesity. So even though she knows more about obesity-related genetics, illness, etc, that knowledge may be held back by dogmatic belief in the status quo.

I don't agree with the tone of Nikoley. I most certainly don't agree with his vehemence in the comments section. But I'm surprised anyone would think this woman is chubby and not fat. The people who are this fat here in Iceland, are extremely uncommon, even if we're getting fatter every year.

Jae-- Stephen specifically used the term "obese status", meaning a BMI of over 30. He did not say chubby or fat, indicating a fatness level. It is one thing to discount BMI because ripped dudes have low bodyfat. It is another thing when Fedor is considered, who is not only technically obese, but has quite a bit of extra fat. And Stephen, Fedor doesn't bulk or cut, he just always looks like that.

Hey Stephen-Aegis--cancer is a chronic illness that pills work quite well for. Schizophrenia is another one, and there's hundreds more. Pharmacologists are helpful in ascertaining the benefits and risks of specific medications, while internet folks aren't so great at it.

@Kamal: sometimes I think you argue for the sake of arguing, without adding much to the discussion. Few people here think BMI is a useful measure of anything. @Nicole, at the risk of this devolving even further, someone needs to photoshop our beloved SG's face onto Fedor's body....

@Yoannah -- your edit to "healthy at any size" is simply back-peddling. That is NOT how most (overweight) people take it to mean. They mean that one can be overweight and be considered healthy. Again, this is simply trying to make normal an unhealthy condition. Sorry, I am sticking to my guns on this one.

@Stephen, the guy on the left is considered by many to be the greatest fighter who has ever lived.
http://www.google.com/m/search?site=images&gl=us&source=mog&client=safari&hl=en&aq=f&oq=&aqi=g1-k0d0t0&fkt=934&fsdt=7993&q=fedor+vs+arlovski#i=0

BTW one last thing on this -- I get "nutrition advice" from the various healthcare admins and such at the doctor's office. Typical SAD: low-fat, whole-grains. These admins tend to be overwhelmingly overweight. I am sure they subscribe to the self-serving notion that they are healthy at any/every size.

@Yoannah -- "I assume she's got knowledge beyond what I can ever get in this field." --- you would be wrong. She is a political appointment and very much subject to the ag lobby's influence. You know MUCH MORE than her.

That should have been "that" rather than "than" in the penultimate sentence above. BTW, I am including the Brits & Irish in the English speaking group. You can always spot the Brits as the guys will invariably be wearing a soccer jersey. That is not an insult, I was wearing a USA soccer jersey myself on Sunday, the day that so many Americans were wearing their cities' NFL jersey.

I edited to explain more, but the "Health At Any Size" doesn't mean that any size is healthy, but rather that you should focus on being healthy, whatever your size is. Instead of focusing on weight (and possibly lowering it with fad diets and dangerous fasts) you focus on eating healthy, and the weight will follow.

Read more: Is paleo community running on fatism? - Paleo Hacks.com
That should have been "that" rather than "than" in the penultimate sentence above. BTW, I am including the Brits & Irish in the English speaking group. You can always spot the Brits as the guys will invariably be wearing a soccer jersey. That is not an insult, I was wearing a USA soccer jersey myself on Sunday, the day that so many Americans were wearing their cities' NFL jersey.

That should have been "that" rather than "than" in the penultimate sentence. BTW, I am including the Brits & Irish in the English speaking group. You can always spot the Brits as the guys will invariably be wearing a soccer jersey. That is not an insult, I was wearing a USA soccer jersey myself on Sunday, the day that so many Americans were wearing their cities' NFL jersey.

Thank you for your comment, it really shows the dangers of social stigma and oppression of body image. One can easily fell into a constant cycle, where the body loses any control or balance. It's hard and difficult to get back to health and figure out what is the healthy, optimal body shape for you. And it may be very different to someone else's.

I just got back from Disney World where you do get to see people from around the world. The English speaking adults were generally split into two distinct types: the fit ones that were there to run in the Halloween 5K or the Wine & Dine 1/2 marathon or the obese ones. It struck me that there were not than many in-betweeners. The non-english speaking adults were a mixed bag but generally less obese.

That's what made me so annoyed. There was nothing about "eat your grains" or "fat is evil". the fact that she mentioned "fun" when generally it's shame and imposing guilt that's spread... it was a relief to me to hear. No reason for personal attacks.

Read "Good Calories, Bad Calories" and you'll see a lot of data that shows that very little of obesity is caused by an inability to control ones apetite. The book is long, but very worth the time investment to read.

I see it, Nicole. I grew up in affluent areas of New Jersey and ended up moving to Iowa 28 years ago. There were noticeably more obese people out here, even back in 1982, and the situation has only gotten worse.

Yeah BMI is worthless, I'm overweight by bmi standards now with visible ribs/abs because I carry alot of muscle now. Let's see test results, A1c, cholesterol etc on these healthy fat people, because I'm a doubter

30 pounds of flab might not look so bad on someone with a more developed physique, but on my tall, muscularly scrawny body, it was an innertube around my waist, spilling over my belt. It reflected both a complete lack of exercise and a poor diet... nothing beautiful about that.

I think a lot of you don't see just how fat Americans are. If you live in a big city, someplace that leans very athletic or if your area is full of affluent people, you might not realize just how fat the vast middle of America really is.
The children are particularly alarming, and the parents really need to understand they are hurting their kids. I think a lot of them don't want to change anything *they* are doing, so they just decide their kid's fatness is genetic.

I agree that doctors and health professionals should prolly be representative of what they say a healthy lifestyle is. For example my mother's GI doctor is obese. Seriously. Like, beachball style. I hate to sound like a jerk but i think if aliens landed or someone from anytime time period other than our own were to see this situation i think they'd be quick to see the irony/hypocrisy/general silliness. Ill take my health advice from athletic, generally healthy-looking AND acting people, thanks.

I'm ok with focus on health message, she comes across as, it's ok to be SAD. Her message does not clearly convey health first to me, but more, don't pick on fat people , focus on fun. She needs to post up proof that she's healthy herself OR state that she's working on it too. My main problem with her message is that it becomes an excuse: The SG says I'm healthy even tho I'm fat because I walk once a week and eat whole grain bread!!!

I have nothing against fat people. I have everything against poor diet and even more against, it's ok to have poor diet as log as you're having fun. I'm sorry to hear you went thru that. I got the fat comments , including the derision of why don't you exercise more even when I was. The ignorance of diet needs to be fixed. People are beginning to forget what healthy looks like. No offense but I'm glad you found paleo, vegetarian skinny is just as scary as SAD fat on health to me. Eat some meat!

Oh and vegetarian... Is NOT healthy at all. Even the gluten free vegetarians are eating corn, crap grains, legumes and ugh soy. These are not healthy. These will make you think you're eating right by SAD however while you end up overweight and sick.

Is the first losing weight while eating healthy? And is this Paleo healthy or SAD healthy? I know plenty of people who eat SAD healthy, I used to be one o them, complex carbs veggies lean meats whole grains. I was 285lbs. When I switched to paleo healthy... Amazingly it ALL dropped off and now my abs show... I exercised before, could run and play sports, bu I was 285 and not "healthy".

Get of the meds if at all possible. Both of you. Everyone. Pharma is Not Good for us. With the exception of acute illnesses that result in immediate harm, I'm vehemently opposed to pills. The mitochondrial, metabolic, and hormonal Damage resulting can't be any better for you than bad food.

I do feel sorry for very fat people because I know they are getting the wrong information. Your typical very fat person (and I live in the Appalachians in a small rural town - I see a lot more of them than most of you) is not telling me what to do.
If the Surgeon General is going to get up there and tell me what to do? She has it coming. Seriously.

I do know overweight, healthy and pretty happy adults. One I guess could be called "obese". She is trying to live healthy, cook at home, eat her veggies and complex carbs. She walks a lot, tries exercising and generally is very active. She has pretty positive outlook, is very energetic and has good blood work and heart health. The other overweight as well - one is vegetarian, but very active, working at farm with no health issues whatsoever. Could they be healthier and leaner on paleo? probably. Do I think they know nothing about nutrition? NO.

Exactly! I feel some people have the close minded neophyte zealotry, feeling superior for "seeing the light", as if it made them better in some way.
I can't understand this level of human ugliness toward another human.

"Health at any size" doesn't mean eat, indulge, don't move, do whatever you want and ignore the facts. it means FOCUS ON HEALTH, the weight is secondary.
I've been on low-carb since January, paleo since April I think. I haven't lost anything. I am not obese, just rounded here and there (also consequence of anti-anxiety meds) and now I am on PSMF in hope to push the weight loss a bit. I didn't drop off the wagon earlier on, b/c my focus was on HEALTH, not weight.

I have nothing against being angry with the system. I know I am whenever I see another "healthy" advice in whatever media outlet, or I see my friends who are struggling with obesity embracing low-fat veganism as new gospel, because that's what other friend told them is working... The confusion, misleading in addition to individual genetics, illnesses, predispositions, environmental factors etc., simply is too much to navigate for many, even when they are trying.
I didn't find her looking unhealthy. I don't know her. I assume she's got knowledge beyond what I can ever get in this field.

@Kamal: ABP beat me to it, I Challenge their "healthy" status.
I don't challenge that they might be trying or are on the road to success. I challenge that they humans do not naturally store excessively.

Thank you for telling your story and giving us all a window into where you are coming from. I hope you don't feel embarrassed for long and realize that we all have a story that has brought us here, either weight or health issues, or both. Some people get quick results in weight loss on this woe but for many it is a slow process and we may still be overweight a long time while we are healing. I had clicked your profile before to see if you had a blog, wanting to understand your point of view by finding an "about me". Sometimes you sound like a vegan and sometimes not, know I know why.

Thank you for sharing. I know it took a lot of courage. I am/was in a very similiar position, and God knows that emotional issues took it's toll.
Since my health is not yet optimal, I often wonder if I should even give out health advice. Your story and thoughts have given me a new perspective.

While I like the aesthetic of a fit body, I would never think someone who was 30 lbs overweight looked "disgusting", any more than I would think a middle aged person with greying and receding hair and some wrinkles looked disgusting. I think beauty has a little more variety than that, and I think your wife has issues.

Also, FWIW, I don't think the US Surgeon General should be criticised for her size - we don't know anything about her particular health needs, etc. But she certainly deserves heaping criticism if she is espousing the Conventional Wisdom without any significant scientific backing. Listen to her, don't just look.

I lost 14kg being low-carb and then primal. It took 9 easy months. I then gained it all back in just under two months, despite making no change to my diet. The probability is that a drug I was on for a month messed with my hormones and turned me into a fat-storing machine, even though I was technically maintaining a caloric deficit. So I'm fat again, but I'm perfectly paleo & hopefully healthy. People probably look at me & think I have no effing clue about health, when I probably know more than pretty much everyone I know. But this size may be my 'correct' composition for health. Don't judge.

Melissa, I don't think anybody is advocating gratuitously bashing fat people who are doing everything they can to fix the problem. The target of the bashing here, though, is the US Surgeon General. She is perfectly positioned to learn and educate people about the truth, but all she does is issue platitudes congruent with the conventional wisdom that is making many of us fat and even more of us sick. The US SG is not a "civilian" in this battle.

@Stancel --- Paleo is about health. Proper weight/body composition are a function of health. Per Stephen's comment above: Proper weight is an awesome side effect of good health.
"Health at Any/Every Size" is politically correct propaganda BS meant to normalize poor health.

You don't know any obese and healthy humans? I know probably 20-30 of them. Also, there's mixed martial artists, football players, etc that are quite healthy with a BMI over 30. There were also a few obese regular folk up in their 70s who were family friends. That being said, it does significantly increase the risk of chronic disease.

You'll probably lose weight on paleo, but it will take time. I have several close friends who are paleo and "fat." Hopefully they'll lose, but damage takes time to mend and in the meantime I'm hoping people won't judge them based on that.

"In fact, it implicitly contradicts why one would bother to eat Paleo. Sorry."
I thought the focus of paleo was health, not losing weight. There are plenty of diets for that besides paleo. Paleo is not the only diet you can lose lots of weight on.

22
Answers

Speaking as another shrinking fatty, I think it's perfectly valid to heap scorn on the Surgeon General. We don't hate fat people, we hate the system that made them/us that way. Most of us have been badly harmed by the SAD, and the Surgeon General is part of the system that promotes it.

The fact that the SG is "chubby"/fat/obese and still giving the same old advice just adds some irony, and a little more evidence of how wrong she is, making it more fun to disparage her. And yes, Nikoley is a loudmouthed asshole (not that there's anything wrong with that). I think you'll find a lot of that amongst those of us willing to defy the conventional wisdom.

It doesn't look like I summarized or repeated your comment, that I'm aware of. Nobody at my workplace eats paleo, and they are all MD/PhDs. They all have much much MORE knowledge about obesity than I do, but just didn't put the pieces together when it comes to their own diet. If that's what you were getting at, then my apologies for recapitulating.

I have nothing against being angry with the system. I know I am whenever I see another "healthy" advice in whatever media outlet, or I see my friends who are struggling with obesity embracing low-fat veganism as new gospel, because that's what other friend told them is working... The confusion, misleading in addition to individual genetics, illnesses, predispositions, environmental factors etc., simply is too much to navigate for many, even when they are trying.
I didn't find her looking unhealthy. I don't know her. I assume she's got knowledge beyond what I can ever get in this field.

Read more: Is paleo community running on fatism? - Paleo Hacks.com
It doesn't look like I summarized or repeated your comment, that I'm aware of. Nobody at my workplace eats paleo, and they are all MD/PhDs. They all have much much MORE knowledge about obesity than I do, but just didn't put the pieces together when it comes to their own diet. If that's what you were getting at, then my apologies for recapitulating.

Patrik- that depends on what the field is. As a physician, Regina probably knows more about the metabolism of obesity than paleohackers, but less about the practical effects of diet on obesity. So even though she knows more about obesity-related genetics, illness, etc, that knowledge may be held back by dogmatic belief in the status quo.

It doesn't look like I summarized or repeated your comment, that I'm aware of. Nobody at my workplace eats paleo, and they are all MD/PhDs. They all have much much more knowledge about obesity than I do, but just didn't put the pieces together when it comes to their own diet. If that's what you were getting at, then my apologies for recapitulating.

Just because she is an M.D. should we automatically assume she knows more about the metabolism of obesity? The mere fact that so many doctors prescribe more carbs for for overweight or diabetic people screams loudly that they know little (or forgot much) about basic human metabolism and biochemistry.

@Yoannah -- "I assume she's got knowledge beyond what I can ever get in this field." --- you would be wrong. She is a political appointment and very much subject to the ag lobby's influence. You know MUCH MORE than her.

You know I wrote a whole new long answer detailing my entire life experience with weight but erased it. It really is a very crazy story. Seriously, you're going to think I'm making this sh*t up. I'm always hesitant to talk about it because it gets me very emotional but I've decided to write it again. This only deals with weight aspect of my life.

I'm 21, male, 5'9'', 180 lbs. When I was 5, I transitioned from a normal weight for my age and slowly became more overweight and obese. In elementary school, I was lying about my weight but it was obvious to the other kids I was a behemoth. Imagine being 180 lbs (my weight now!) in elementary school. It was not fast food or school lunches that did this to me, but binge eating at home. Eventually, I got over 200 lbs. I must have been 220 lbs at this first peak of my weight. I was 13 when I put myself on a strict low-fat diet, and 14 when I became a vegetarian and a vegan. I was losing weight and feeling happier with myself than ever. I later left my strict low-fat veganism behind and ate more nuts in my diet, peanut butter became part of my daily diet.

This happiness soon ended. Suddenly I was "too skinny". I started to hear people ask me in my face if I was anorexic or bulimic. The answer was always the truth, No. You know you really see how supportive people really are when you become "too skinny". All they want to do at that point is fatten you up. And that's exactly what they did to me.

Not only did my mom secretly lie to me about the anti-depressants I was taking actually being appetite stimulants (I wonder if any medical professionals were complicit in this, or encouraged it...hmm, I need to get some legal revenge) she began to shove junk food in my face yelling at me to eat it. I was forced to go to therapists where I was weighed and made to feel guilty for being myself!

After all this pressure, or maybe it was the appetite stimulant, or both, I jettisoned my health views, and fattened up like a prize pig. I was still very much an ethical vegan, so as long as the calories weren't from an animal, I didn't care. I soon became addicted to hummus , which I ate with copious amounts of pita bread. Then margarine became another addiction, which I added to everything. I could eat a whole tub of cashews in a sitting. This binge eating was all in addition to the copious amounts of food I was eating. I was also not exercising as I learned to concede to their demands that I not exercise, being so skinny and all. Really, I think of it as the old me being brutally murdered (in a mental sense) and then resurrected into a zombie state. I'm still in recovery from the physical and emotional damage that I did to my body, mind and my health. Sure, they started to say I was eating too much, but I had already been brainwashed. I wanted to eat like that, but I don't consider it's my fault. If someone pushes you off a cliff, and you keep falling, it's not your fault if you keep falling.

In the beginning, I did look healthy, less emaciated, less like Skeletor. That was only temporary as the weight climbed up. Within a couple years I had gone from 117 lbs (with a BMI of 17) to 285 lbs (with a BMI of 42). I had lost 100 lbs, and gained back 165. So much for the anti-anorexic witch-hunt crowd wanting me to become "healthy". Anorexia is a behavior not a number, and my experience as a falsely accused anorexic proves that.

It gets worse. I suffered simultaneously from malnutrition and overeating. My digestion was horrible. I vomited after eating more than once. I skipped school, because I was severely depressed, but also because I had developed incontinence and had difficulty keeping myself from having to go to the bathroom. I went from a A & B student to mostly F's and D's. I was skipping school so much, that I eventually just dropped out of high school. Seriously, becoming fat again ruined my life.

That went on for a few years until I was 20, January 2009, I put myself on a diet again, and I've lost 100 lbs, most of that lost on a vegan diet.

I stopped being a vegan in March of this year. I'm still dealing with weight, body image issues to this day. During my weight loss last year I experienced many episodes of anorexia, bulimia, and binge eating. Even now when I am at a more modest weight, I've hit a plateau and I often think about starving myself. But the reason I haven't gone full blown anorexic is because I hate the pain of hunger too much, and I don't like the idea of being malnourished of essential vitamins and minerals.

If anyone here should learn anything from my story, it's that as someone who was both very fat and very thin, I know how stupid people can act to you. Granted, I felt much better even when people were giving me sh*t for being skinny. What didn't feel good was the pressure to eat junk food and over-eat, what didn't feel good was becoming fat. I would like it if I could do it all over again, and gain muscle instead of fat. I definitely felt worse being fat. I have my own idea of what being attractive is and I measure myself up to it. Fat people like I was hate themselves way more than anyone else hates them. Being thin isn't as bad, but I do think it is oppressive how people who are thin or become thin are treated. I don't think people should be treated like that for being any size.

Most of the pain in my life has come from me being fat. I did not accept myself. I do not consider the physical health issues of being overweight to be nearly as concerning as the mental and emotional damages one feels having to deal with the stigma of being one of the fat ones. Seeing attractive people wherever you go. Overeating becomes your routine, or your comfort in emotional hell. Can you imagine if on top of that, someone decides that they are being "good" by shaming fat people to thinness? The number one reason fat people do not want to exercise is because they are worried what people will think of them. It's not because they are lazy!

Seriously, instead of being all angry at fat people you need to have a heart. I support Health At Every Size movement. I personally do not agree that being fat should be encouraged, but I feel that it shouldn't be subject to massive scorn and bigotry either. I support people who have decided to value their own self-worth as a human being despite of being "too fat".

That's it, I bared my soul. I'm being 100% honest and truthful. I just feel so embarrassed getting it off my chest.

Thank you for sharing. I know it took a lot of courage. I am/was in a very similiar position, and God knows that emotional issues took it's toll.
Since my health is not yet optimal, I often wonder if I should even give out health advice. Your story and thoughts have given me a new perspective.

I have nothing against fat people. I have everything against poor diet and even more against, it's ok to have poor diet as log as you're having fun. I'm sorry to hear you went thru that. I got the fat comments , including the derision of why don't you exercise more even when I was. The ignorance of diet needs to be fixed. People are beginning to forget what healthy looks like. No offense but I'm glad you found paleo, vegetarian skinny is just as scary as SAD fat on health to me. Eat some meat!

Thank you for your comment, it really shows the dangers of social stigma and oppression of body image. One can easily fell into a constant cycle, where the body loses any control or balance. It's hard and difficult to get back to health and figure out what is the healthy, optimal body shape for you. And it may be very different to someone else's.

Thank you for telling your story and giving us all a window into where you are coming from. I hope you don't feel embarrassed for long and realize that we all have a story that has brought us here, either weight or health issues, or both. Some people get quick results in weight loss on this woe but for many it is a slow process and we may still be overweight a long time while we are healing. I had clicked your profile before to see if you had a blog, wanting to understand your point of view by finding an "about me". Sometimes you sound like a vegan and sometimes not, know I know why.

Get of the meds if at all possible. Both of you. Everyone. Pharma is Not Good for us. With the exception of acute illnesses that result in immediate harm, I'm vehemently opposed to pills. The mitochondrial, metabolic, and hormonal Damage resulting can't be any better for you than bad food.

I do take anti-anxiety and anti-depression meds. I wish I could get off them. I will when I can, but for now? I am so happy what the meds did for me, and I am not going back to what my life was like two and more years ago. Body heals slowly, I was abusing it for over thirty years, I can't expect miracles. My asthma also didn't go away, just yet. I would prefer to pay the producer than die of asthma attack, but feeling superior and righteous.

Hey Stephen-Aegis--cancer is a chronic illness that pills work quite well for. Schizophrenia is another one, and there's hundreds more. Pharmacologists are helpful in ascertaining the benefits and risks of specific medications, while internet folks aren't so great at it.

And I sure hope commentors would have the liberty to argue against Stephen's original point: "With the exception of acute illnesses that result in immediate harm, I'm vehemently opposed to pills. The mitochondrial, metabolic, and hormonal Damage resulting can't be any better for you than bad food." (Nothing against you Stephen--its a very contentious issue!)

BTW one last thing on this -- I get "nutrition advice" from the various healthcare admins and such at the doctor's office. Typical SAD: low-fat, whole-grains. These admins tend to be overwhelmingly overweight. I am sure they subscribe to the self-serving notion that they are healthy at any/every size.

@Stancel --- Paleo is about health. Proper weight/body composition are a function of health. Per Stephen's comment above: Proper weight is an awesome side effect of good health.
"Health at Any/Every Size" is politically correct propaganda BS meant to normalize poor health.

"In fact, it implicitly contradicts why one would bother to eat Paleo. Sorry."
I thought the focus of paleo was health, not losing weight. There are plenty of diets for that besides paleo. Paleo is not the only diet you can lose lots of weight on.

Whoah whoah...this is NOT for argument's sake. Nobody said pills have to cure or prevent disease--See the previous few comments. My aunt's mom has been schizophrenic since she was little, and would not be able to function without pills. My friend was born without a thyroid and needs pills. I have a bleeding disorder and need stuff in case of emergencies. My job is reviewing meta-analyses of medical treatments. There are, luckily, many things that pills work quite well for, compared to alternatives.

contentious indeed, it's my strong opinion and I'm sticking to it. Patrik already responded how I would about your pill comment. I'm 100% in the fix the cause camp, it's why I eat paleo... If I just wanted to lose weight and not be healthy. Pills can supress my appetite... Won't fix the problem. I say the same for Most everything under the sun. Humans are incredible self healing machines when we don't gum up the works

You'll probably lose weight on paleo, but it will take time. I have several close friends who are paleo and "fat." Hopefully they'll lose, but damage takes time to mend and in the meantime I'm hoping people won't judge them based on that.

Melissa, I don't think anybody is advocating gratuitously bashing fat people who are doing everything they can to fix the problem. The target of the bashing here, though, is the US Surgeon General. She is perfectly positioned to learn and educate people about the truth, but all she does is issue platitudes congruent with the conventional wisdom that is making many of us fat and even more of us sick. The US SG is not a "civilian" in this battle.

Also, FWIW, I don't think the US Surgeon General should be criticised for her size - we don't know anything about her particular health needs, etc. But she certainly deserves heaping criticism if she is espousing the Conventional Wisdom without any significant scientific backing. Listen to her, don't just look.

@Kamal -- C'mon...you know as well as I do, pills do NOT work "quite well" for either cancer or schizophrenia. They treat the symptom, not the cause. Can pills help and provide a tremendous amount of relief or help a person cope? FUCK YES! But again, they aren't working "quite well" in terms of curing or preventing. That is why both you and I think Paleo as a paradigm makes sense.
Last thing, your contributions ARE VALUED but please (pleasepleasepleasepleaseplease) refrain from being argumentative for argument's sake.

I lost 14kg being low-carb and then primal. It took 9 easy months. I then gained it all back in just under two months, despite making no change to my diet. The probability is that a drug I was on for a month messed with my hormones and turned me into a fat-storing machine, even though I was technically maintaining a caloric deficit. So I'm fat again, but I'm perfectly paleo & hopefully healthy. People probably look at me & think I have no effing clue about health, when I probably know more than pretty much everyone I know. But this size may be my 'correct' composition for health. Don't judge.

"Health at any size" doesn't mean eat, indulge, don't move, do whatever you want and ignore the facts. it means FOCUS ON HEALTH, the weight is secondary.
I've been on low-carb since January, paleo since April I think. I haven't lost anything. I am not obese, just rounded here and there (also consequence of anti-anxiety meds) and now I am on PSMF in hope to push the weight loss a bit. I didn't drop off the wagon earlier on, b/c my focus was on HEALTH, not weight.

When I see very fat people, I feel sorry for them. They have been fooled but the so called experts into living and eating in ways that destroys their metabolisms. Then when they get fat, the same 'experts' blame them for having lack of willpower. Then when they try to do anything about it, most of the experts tell them to do more of the same. Is it any wonder that so many people are fat!?!

Of course, once people are addicted to sugar and garbage, and their brains are half fried, it's even harder for them to see past the so called experts and realize the real problem. And everywhere, society constantly tempts them to go back to the societally accepted way. I recently met this one guy who said he did great eating a low carb diet and lost lots of weight easily, but then everyone told him it was 'the heart attack diet' and he was scared he would get sick if he continued eating that way. Most people in society are just not going to spend 500 hours reading research articles and then have the chutzpah to tell all the 'experts' to go suck an egg. Instead, they will listen to those who are supposed to know something intelligent. So when I see a fat woman up there spouting bull about health, I can't help but see her as another borg drone that got sucked into the system. She is doing what she was brainwashed to believe is correct.

I think those who feel hate and animosity towards fat people are just people who themselves carry a lot of hate and animosity inside them and are looking for an excuse to let it out and have fun at someone else's expense. There are people everywhere that are full of hate and animosity and that includes some in the paleo community. It doesn't mean that paleo people are like that. It only means that all kinds of people are involved with paleo, including some that are like that.

I think the paleo community is way better than most people, because we at least aren't blaming the fat people for being gluttonous/lazy, instead we feel sorry for them. Try reading the comments on any online news article about obesity, those commenters can get *nasty*. Richard's commentary pales in comparison, in my opinion.

I do feel sorry for very fat people because I know they are getting the wrong information. Your typical very fat person (and I live in the Appalachians in a small rural town - I see a lot more of them than most of you) is not telling me what to do.
If the Surgeon General is going to get up there and tell me what to do? She has it coming. Seriously.

Thin does not equal healthy, first of all. Even if you were thin and eating the SAD before discovering paleo, you were just as ignorant (literally speaking, not as insult) as a fat person, and simply genetically lucky that your un-health didn't manifest as adiposity.

In a way, maybe SAD fat people are the lucky ones, since they at least have smack-you-in-the-face obvious evidence of un-health, with very motivating lifestyle benefits to be had by going paleo. The perpetually thin SAD'er can continue under the delusion that he is healthy since he doesn't gain weight, albeit chronically deluded about the source of his psoriasis, acne, cancer, parkinson's, etc.

Additionally, while everyone is ultimately responsible for his own choices, SAD fatties are legitimately victims (as are thin people) of a governmental-agricultural-scientific hegemony that is constantly giving them terrible and contradictory advice and then blaming them when it doesn't work. Fatties deserve sympathy, kindness, help, education, and encouragement.

"n a way, maybe SAD fat people are the lucky ones, since they at least have smack-you-in-the-face obvious evidence of un-health, with very motivating lifestyle benefits to be had by going paleo."
I think that point is bang on. It is a heck of a lot more challenging to convince people who are "thin" to change their lifestyle. But the best convincing that any of us can do is do lead by example.

Jae-- Stephen specifically used the term "obese status", meaning a BMI of over 30. He did not say chubby or fat, indicating a fatness level. It is one thing to discount BMI because ripped dudes have low bodyfat. It is another thing when Fedor is considered, who is not only technically obese, but has quite a bit of extra fat. And Stephen, Fedor doesn't bulk or cut, he just always looks like that.

Is the first losing weight while eating healthy? And is this Paleo healthy or SAD healthy? I know plenty of people who eat SAD healthy, I used to be one o them, complex carbs veggies lean meats whole grains. I was 285lbs. When I switched to paleo healthy... Amazingly it ALL dropped off and now my abs show... I exercised before, could run and play sports, bu I was 285 and not "healthy".

At the risk of being argumentative again...VO2 max?? That's a marker of aerobic fitness, not overall health. Unless there truly aren't better markers of overall health, it doesn't seem like a great one. Chronic cardio leads to incredible VO2 max! My VO2 max is probably at an all-time low.

High intensity exercise... Any exercise really leads to a good VO2. It wilm determine fitness, where the a1c more diet. A cortisol/adrenal test to round it out then. Overall health is going to include diet and aerobic health... I think excessive cardio is real, but in the same thread alot of paleo use it to be lazy.

Kamal, I think BMI is fine for reasonably large cohorts, crummy for individuals... can we agree on that? As in, I resent getting my BMI measured for health insurance incentives whereby my premiums would be lower if my BMI were lower. Why can't they just measure my deadlift and my 500m rowing time?

Yeah BMI is worthless, I'm overweight by bmi standards now with visible ribs/abs because I carry alot of muscle now. Let's see test results, A1c, cholesterol etc on these healthy fat people, because I'm a doubter

I do know overweight, healthy and pretty happy adults. One I guess could be called "obese". She is trying to live healthy, cook at home, eat her veggies and complex carbs. She walks a lot, tries exercising and generally is very active. She has pretty positive outlook, is very energetic and has good blood work and heart health. The other overweight as well - one is vegetarian, but very active, working at farm with no health issues whatsoever. Could they be healthier and leaner on paleo? probably. Do I think they know nothing about nutrition? NO.

Resistance training has little to no effect on VO2 max, there are many VO2 max nonresponders because of the genetic component, and some other stuff. I couldn't find a peer-reviewed article off-hand, but there's this...http://www.sport-fitness-advisor.com/VO2max.html

Oh and vegetarian... Is NOT healthy at all. Even the gluten free vegetarians are eating corn, crap grains, legumes and ugh soy. These are not healthy. These will make you think you're eating right by SAD however while you end up overweight and sick.

@Stephen, the guy on the left is considered by many to be the greatest fighter who has ever lived.
http://www.google.com/m/search?site=images&gl=us&source=mog&client=safari&hl=en&aq=f&oq=&aqi=g1-k0d0t0&fkt=934&fsdt=7993&q=fedor+vs+arlovski#i=0

@Kamal: sometimes I think you argue for the sake of arguing, without adding much to the discussion. Few people here think BMI is a useful measure of anything. @Nicole, at the risk of this devolving even further, someone needs to photoshop our beloved SG's face onto Fedor's body....

@Kamal: ABP beat me to it, I Challenge their "healthy" status.
I don't challenge that they might be trying or are on the road to success. I challenge that they humans do not naturally store excessively.

You don't know any obese and healthy humans? I know probably 20-30 of them. Also, there's mixed martial artists, football players, etc that are quite healthy with a BMI over 30. There were also a few obese regular folk up in their 70s who were family friends. That being said, it does significantly increase the risk of chronic disease.

VO2 max is WAY increased by long distance running, cycling, or skiing. It is only moderately increased by more paleo activities like walking, hiking, moving moderately sized object, and playing light sports. I don't think it's a great indicator of fitness with regard to us paleos, because how often would cavemen approach maximal oxygen consumption? Not as often as Greg Lemond or Steve Prefontaine. Running isn't life, being happy with pleasant moderate movement is more reflective of paleo life.

Maybe I missed something but I don't think anything she said in that video Richard posted has anything to do with diet and nutrition. She was talking about healthcare reform.

In the video you posted on your blog she said "eat nutritious foods, exercise regularly, and have fun doing it". I think that is a good message.

She may be overweight but everyone in America is not thin. If fat people can't talk about nutrition because they are fat then that's a terrible attitude. Some fat people are trying to lose weight and be healthy and lost weight, but they're still overweight but they still have wisdom to share.

What about the super skinny gamer nerd that plays World of Warcraft, never gets any sunlight, and subsists on a diet of Mountain Dew and Cheetos. Being skinny only means you are skinny. Plenty of skinny people keel over and die and get sick.

That's what made me so annoyed. There was nothing about "eat your grains" or "fat is evil". the fact that she mentioned "fun" when generally it's shame and imposing guilt that's spread... it was a relief to me to hear. No reason for personal attacks.

"Do as I say, not as I do" does NOT fly for a government anointed health authority. She needs to walk the walk AND talk the talk.

I think that allowing people who are very overweight to believe that "everyone in my family is 'big'" (so it's genetic) is really harmful.

I'm concerned that fat "acceptance" is just going to result in people never finding out what really is a healthy lifestyle. Because the conventional wisdom doesn't work for weight loss, they might never look beyond that and instead just figure that's the way they are.

Carrying 10-15% over your ideal weight is no big deal. Some studies show those people have very favorable health outcomes, and I think that a lot of unhealthy obsession can go into getting off that last bit of weight anyway. Saying that people who are more than 25% over their ideal weight are just as healthy as those folks? I really don't think so.

I agree that doctors and health professionals should prolly be representative of what they say a healthy lifestyle is. For example my mother's GI doctor is obese. Seriously. Like, beachball style. I hate to sound like a jerk but i think if aliens landed or someone from anytime time period other than our own were to see this situation i think they'd be quick to see the irony/hypocrisy/general silliness. Ill take my health advice from athletic, generally healthy-looking AND acting people, thanks.

Free The Animal is known for being pretty rugged in his commentary. I love reading his site, but I take it for what its worth. He doesn't hide it. If you listen to interviews with him, or just read him regularly you'll see that he admits that he is cursey, loud, opinionated, etc. I got no prob with it, in fact I think its just about the only paleo-related blog that carries that vibe. I am constantly happy to find that most paleo blogs are very happy, supportive types.

Overweight, while not necessarily preventing one from being healthy, is not ideal. As long as we have a government that is going to try and tell us how to lead a healthy life, overweight should not be sold as merely another bodyshape. The ideal, if there is going to be one, should probably be a slim one. Slim is the way, all other things being equal, we all start out as humans and is most likely the body shape that will allow the healthiest life to be lived.

The following may come off a bit arrogant but sometimes I would like to scream to the bulk of the US population, ???cmon people, have some pride!??? I mean, look at old photos from pretty much anytime: civil war pics, WWI pics, WWII pics, even pics of your parents in the 60s perhaps ??? we looked good! Now look around you. What a shame. Nonstop comparison is prolly not the healthiest thing to do psychologically but it can fuel you in the right direction. I have traveled the globe and just feel that it is plainly obvious the difference between most of us here in the US and most of the people around the world: SIZE. Using that comparison just a little bit as fuel for the fire, and holding ourselves to a higher standard can have benefits, too. Walk tall, walk proud. This doesnt mean be a dick, just means be happy and confident in who you are and what you are showing to the world.

The idea of what is 'normal' is changing. Watching a TV programme about the 60s there was a scene on the beach and everyone - I mean everyone - was what we would now call skinny. That does not mean they were healthy of course and I think people should have more muscle than they had. Similarly in the Perfect Health Diet there is a picture of a 'fat man' who used to tour with a freak show in the late 19th century and people paid money to look it him. No-one would give him a second glance today. I don't believe in blaming or abusing fat people - the issue is the system.

Wow. I read the post and all the comments, and Richard Nikoley is a f***g idiot. Didn't he used to be quite chubby himself?

And as far as I can tell, he is just good at aggregating other people's paleo ideas and being a decent writer. Now it appears that he feels his transformation has given him the liberty to be a mean-spirited jerk. Well, most paleo bloggers seem like nice guys/girls: Mark Sisson, Stephan Guyenet, etc...

Also...her job is not Obesity Doctor General. To tag her as a hypocritical role model is not quite logical. I used to work at an obesity clinic, and some very knowledgeable people with great positive influence, who happened to have trouble controlling their appetites, attended sessions there. Your looks do not dictate everything.

Exactly! I feel some people have the close minded neophyte zealotry, feeling superior for "seeing the light", as if it made them better in some way.
I can't understand this level of human ugliness toward another human.

Read "Good Calories, Bad Calories" and you'll see a lot of data that shows that very little of obesity is caused by an inability to control ones apetite. The book is long, but very worth the time investment to read.

I think that it really depends on the Paleo person. Basically, I see obesity as being caused by our horrendously unnatural diets and lifestyles, and see the obese, of which I used to be one, as victims of a dysfunctional food culture rather than as weakwilled or [insert epithet here].

We're really only beginning to get a grasp on how unhealthy modern life is, and with so few people being aware of this fact, and most of the rest tuned into the conventional wisdom or Oprah and Dr. Oz, I really can't see the point in abusing fat people; you might as well blame pre-Copernicus Europeans for thinking that the Earth was flat, or people in the 1950's for not realizing that tobacco was bad for you.

I have definitely been disheartened by the derisive, pretty much mean name-calling I've encountered at times in the context of the online paleo community - of those who are not perfectly lean - i.e. "fatties", etc. Even if someone looks overweight, they could be eating paleo, and slowly losing weight - that is, on their own paleo path toward health, fitness, and leanness.

Those in that state of flux - or those who are overweight but curious to learn more about the paleo way of eating - could easily be discouraged from continuing with paleo and feel alienated because of these words.

My beef with the Surgeon General is that she represents the pinnacle of the conventional wisdom of the health and nutrition community. They will continue to "study" the role of fat and insulin in the diet, but carbs will always be a significant part of those diets. Why don't they do a large, controlled Lo/Zero carb study? What are they afraid of?

I think as the top public health official, she is deserving of a lot of ire directed her way. Maybe some of the personal invective goes over the top, but I think we are all frustrated that the scientific evidence is so plain, and the Paleo hypothesis is clear, so why isn't it being legitimately tested? We see people we care about living overweight, but malnourished, lives, yet we feel like charlatans when we try to talk about an alternative, because we speak against the weight of government, the medical community, the media, etc.

I think Richard Nikoley has a habit of venting anger about issues by attacking individuals. It's a way for him to illustrate his point.

In this example he's pointing out that a person in supposed authority over a countries health is not healthy herself and is endorsing something he believes to be wrong (healthy at any size or whatever it's called).

I have to agree with him on both points

The problem is that in the English speaking countries (US, Canada, UK, Australia etc.) being fat is the new norm. The SG says it herself 2/3rds of adults are overweight or obese and 1 in 3 children. That's insane. I think you've been living in the US for too long because that woman is not chubby she is fat.

I'm the last person to be lecturing others on how to live a healthy life-style but I can quite clearly see how a paradigm is growing in the English speaking countries where being fat is seen as normal. See things like the 'Dove Campaign' about 'real' women.

I don't think it's ok to make fun of people, or deliberately try to hurt them. But on the other hand it's not ok to sweep a problem under the carpet with this 'healthy at every size' and fat = chubby and obese = fat 'new-speak'.

That should have been "that" rather than "than" in the penultimate sentence. BTW, I am including the Brits & Irish in the English speaking group. You can always spot the Brits as the guys will invariably be wearing a soccer jersey. That is not an insult, I was wearing a USA soccer jersey myself on Sunday, the day that so many Americans were wearing their cities' NFL jersey.

I just got back from Disney World where you do get to see people from around the world. The English speaking adults were generally split into two distinct types: the fit ones that were there to run in the Halloween 5K or the Wine & Dine 1/2 marathon or the obese ones. It struck me that there were not than many in-betweeners. The non-english speaking adults were a mixed bag but generally less obese.

That should have been "that" rather than "than" in the penultimate sentence above. BTW, I am including the Brits & Irish in the English speaking group. You can always spot the Brits as the guys will invariably be wearing a soccer jersey. That is not an insult, I was wearing a USA soccer jersey myself on Sunday, the day that so many Americans were wearing their cities' NFL jersey.

Read more: Is paleo community running on fatism? - Paleo Hacks.com
That should have been "that" rather than "than" in the penultimate sentence above. BTW, I am including the Brits & Irish in the English speaking group. You can always spot the Brits as the guys will invariably be wearing a soccer jersey. That is not an insult, I was wearing a USA soccer jersey myself on Sunday, the day that so many Americans were wearing their cities' NFL jersey.

I see it, Nicole. I grew up in affluent areas of New Jersey and ended up moving to Iowa 28 years ago. There were noticeably more obese people out here, even back in 1982, and the situation has only gotten worse.

I think a lot of you don't see just how fat Americans are. If you live in a big city, someplace that leans very athletic or if your area is full of affluent people, you might not realize just how fat the vast middle of America really is.
The children are particularly alarming, and the parents really need to understand they are hurting their kids. I think a lot of them don't want to change anything *they* are doing, so they just decide their kid's fatness is genetic.

No, I don't think the paleo community is running on fatism. Nikoley might be, however. His post and his responses to comments were openly, nakedly hostile. In my experience, most paleos really resent the CW (and the harm it has caused) and really want to educate people in order to help them help themselves. And that attitude is inherently compassionate.

That kind of compassion is a virtue. But sometimes people elevate a virtue to a vice. Too often compassion becomes dogmatic, and denigration replaces persuasion. You see this in politics all the time, i.e. "if you disagree with me you just don't get it, you're a [insert pejorative here]." This is polarizing, and virtually eliminates any chance of having a real meeting-of-the-minds conversation.

But at the same time we have to recognize that excessive body fat is simply not a marker of good health. Obesity, diabetes, cancer are running rampant in our society. These "Diseases of Civilization" have reached epidemic proportions and our health authorities and all of their fellow travelers seem powerless to help us. They have recommended diet after diet, and bad food after bad food, all to no avail. In fact, they've made everything worse. And after utterly failing to get to the bottom of all this, now they simply give up and tell us that excess body fat is ok? There are many people struggling to lose weight out there, in fact it's quite common. I was one of them. Let's not give up on them by enabling the very people who have (probably unwittingly and in good faith) made it all worse. And let's not confuse common with normal.

It makes sense to me that there would be fatism in the paleo community, considering that so many of us made the journey back to normal weight and good health. Personally, I was never huge, but 30 pounds of subcutaneous fat hanging off an otherwise skinny body was not pretty. When I'd lay on my side in bed, my stomach would sort of flow out onto the mattress. My wife told me right to my face that I looked disgusting, and she was absolutely right. I understand where Richard Nikoley is coming from, but I have mixed feelings about that blog entry. On the one hand, I completely agree with him. On the other hand, I think he's needlessly cruel.

30 pounds of flab might not look so bad on someone with a more developed physique, but on my tall, muscularly scrawny body, it was an innertube around my waist, spilling over my belt. It reflected both a complete lack of exercise and a poor diet... nothing beautiful about that.

While I like the aesthetic of a fit body, I would never think someone who was 30 lbs overweight looked "disgusting", any more than I would think a middle aged person with greying and receding hair and some wrinkles looked disgusting. I think beauty has a little more variety than that, and I think your wife has issues.

I wholeheartedly agree that as a community we have to strive to not be so quick to judge the overweight or obese they may in fact be working on their problem. But I don't believe with the "the healthy at any size" movement that you mention I believe that their is a healthy size and body fat percentage for people and it is unhealthy to be obese or "over-fat". Those people that fall into those unhealthy Body Fat % categories should do what they can to get down to a healthy weight and once they reach that weight they should maintain a healthy lifestyle (diet and exercise). The paleo community as a health oriented community is bound to have criticisms of people who are show the obvious signs of bad health such as obesity. I believe the issue at hand is making our criticism more constructive and less destructive. Being skinny does not = health, but being obese is an indicator of bad health.

I edited to explain more, but the "Health At Any Size" doesn't mean that any size is healthy, but rather that you should focus on being healthy, whatever your size is. Instead of focusing on weight (and possibly lowering it with fad diets and dangerous fasts) you focus on eating healthy, and the weight will follow.

Couldn't agree more with that. I believe that is the crux of the issue. We as the paleo community are unable to determine whether or not any other person is eating a healthy diet trying to improve themselves just by their appearance be it skinny or obese. As a health community we should welcome others not ridicule them.

Beyond the bad information pushed by the FDA Food Pyramid, there is a socio-economic element to weight. Poor Americans are likely to fat Americans because the cheapest foods are full of subsidized corn and sugar. Lets not forget this: personal problems, when widespread, become public issues.

From the song 'Everybody's free (to wear sunscreen)' (lyrics) by Baz Luhrmann

I guess we, in the paleo community, all at one moment stumbled upon the paleo principle, weather it was by a friend, by actively searching the net, or by 'inventing' the paleo principles yourself.

And since an evolutionary view of the human organism is such a strong one, we probalby all had similar feelings when we know someone with health and/or weight problems: 'if only he/she would adapt a paleo lifestyle...'. Maybe even stronger feelings, maybe even wanting to preach about ancestral health.

And indeed, sometimes it is depressing to see many health professionals (who have a duty to know) in bad shape and overweight. And it certainly makes me anger knowing that sometimes people give ill advice because of commercial interests.

But you can only hold people responsible for their actions, if they are aware of the responsibility and are educated about them. And that's where we got lucky. We stumbled upon the paleo principles.

So I think we should not point to the obese. We should raise awareness. And lead by example. And hope that we can reach a certain tipping point. Bottom up r-evolution.

Re the SG, remember who's really in charge of all things having to do with official government positions on nutrition: ADM, Con-Agra, Monsanto, et al collectively called "Big Ag." That they receive enormous subsidies to produce their junk commodity crops yet still wield this kind of power will always be baffling to me.

I think that one point, that Yoannah is trying to make is their is a difference between:
-Being healthy whatever your current size is
-Any size can be healthy

For me, the idea of being healthy whatever your current size is acceptance. That is the first part of change. Once there is acceptance, then true, lasting change can occur. Accepting where you are starting from is not the same as saying that is the ideal and healthy size.

I think a slogan that we all can get behind is: "Be healthier." No matter what your lifestyle is right now, there are ways that all of us can be healthier.

And let's keep in mind that having a healthy body is not only the food we put in our mouth or how we exercise our body but the toxins we expose ourselves to.

Let us lead by example (not through lecturing or demeaning others) and just *emphasized text*be healthier*emphasized text*.