+1 to being a big splitter, coming for sticker, and not regretting it. That being said I'm pretty sure that omg, vamedic03, and I are an unrepresentative sample. I'd say if your goal is public interest fork for which LRAP / IBR will cover you, it's a great choice. If you have any decent scholarship, it's a great choice. If your goal is biglaw, it's a great choice but there's more risk. There are people here who wanted big firm jobs, made the choice to take out loans based on getting big firm jobs, and are having a very hard time getting big firm jobs. That can't be swept under the rug.

A few years ago 80%+ could probably land big firm gigs without breaking a sweat, and then I'd say it was a financial no-brainer. The risk is much more real now, but more than half of my 1L section (a fairly random grouping) have big firm worked lined up for their 2L summer, and a substantial portion of the rest either 1) never wanted big law or 2) are on course to do something else cool / worthy of the investment.

The more you've thought about what you want AFTER law school (in terms of costs, geography, and difficulty of obtaining) the more sense UVA makes sense, but that comes down to soul searching and whether or not any law school is worth going to. If a person wants to practice law and has a realistic (if understandably vague) understanding about the current legal market, UVA is worth the (insane) sticker price, but it won't turn out roses for everyone.

Morgan12Oak wrote:Any thoughts on Federal Income Tax with Yin? Is this considered a "law review/big law" type GPA-killer class?

Yin got somewhat harsh reviews at first (he's fairly new at UVA*) but much much better reviews recently. He seems to really care about teaching, and actually was numerically one of the best last semester IIRC. I've heard he allows no laptops and the meeting time is painfully early, and I have also heard the exam has a word limit. He is unique in some ways as a professor in that he has a lot of real world experience - he was the Chief of Staff for the Joint Committee on Taxation, which makes him a total super star. Er, to the extent the tax world produces super stars

I think tax is thought of as a hard LS course (probably because The Code is the size of two phonebooks before regulations or case law) but it's definitely not in the sphere of courses one expects the clerkship gunners to flock to (which would be legislation, fed courts, conflict of laws, administrative law, anything taught by a handful of big name profs, etc.).

*Edit: Turns out he's not new at UVA at all, he's just freshly returned

Last edited by thesealocust on Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Morgan12Oak wrote:Any thoughts on Federal Income Tax with Yin? Is this considered a "law review/big law" type GPA-killer class?

Yin got somewhat harsh reviews at first (he's fairly new at UVA) but much much better reviews recently. He seems to really care about teaching, and actually was numerically one of the best last semester IIRC. I've heard he allows no laptops and the meeting time is painfully early, and I have also heard the exam has a word limit. He is unique in some ways as a professor in that he has a lot of real world experience - he was the Chief of Staff for the Joint Committee on Taxation, which makes him a total super star. Er, to the extent the tax world produces super stars

I think tax is thought of as a hard LS course (probably because The Code is the size of two phonebooks before regulations or case law) but it's definitely not in the sphere of courses one expects the clerkship gunners to flock to (which would be legislation, fed courts, conflict of laws, administrative law, anything taught by a handful of big name profs, etc.).

Thanks. I'm just trying to get my class schedule in order (last minute I know) and trying to put myself in the best possible position for grades. Though I hear at the end of the day, as long as you are avoiding the aforementioned classes, they are all the same anyways.

Eyetalian wrote:I am torn between schools on the east coast like Duke and UVA and schools on the west coast like Berkeley and UCLA. I live in NJ now but would like to work in Cali.

What are the west coast employment/recruiting prospects like for UVA students? Do a lot of LA firms come to campus?

There are so many CA/West Coast people at UVa that you will have a hard time beating them out for the CA jobs. If you have only tenuous connections to CA (e.g., "I like it"; "I vacationed there"; "My uncle lives there"), it will be very difficult to get a CA job at OGI unless your grades are LR-level or close to it. Outside of OGI, the firms that do not visit the school probably will not take a chance on investing in a flight risk.

The downside to your situation is that even if you go to Berkeley or UCLA, those CA firms will view you the same way. I had absolutely no luck with VA firms largely because I had no connections. If you want to work in CA, your grades will matter more than the location of your school. If you have the grades needed to overcome the firms' reservations, you'll be looking at the top firms in CA--most of which come to UVa. The advantage of going to Berkeley or UCLA, then, is marginal.

In a better economy, I would have told you to go to Berkeley, which would be enough to show your interest in the area. But now it's not.

Eyetalian wrote:So you're saying that I won't be able to get a job in CA if I go to Berkeley or UCLA??? Those firms will be afraid that I will return home to work?

It can be overcome--by grades, LR, interview skills--but yes, they will take your lack of connections seriously. I'm not saying you won't be able to get a job in CA--and if it's you top priority, then do whatever you can to give you an advantage--but if I were you, I would keep in mind that firms with limited space and hundreds of applicants are going to have their choice of who they think will be their best investment. And that includes whether they think the applicant will stay with them long term.

It is entirely possible that you will go to Berkeley, have average grades, and be 1 of 20-40 interviewees for each CA firm at OCI (half of whom are from CA or the West Coast). When a firm has 15 spots, and 40 choices from your school alone, you need to ask what makes you stand out. The fact that you're not from CA is a negative, not a positive, because they will be worried you will prefer to go back home in 2 years. It happens more than you think.

Edit: I'm not warning against you going to Berkeley or UCLA as much as am I warning you not to expect a good CA job just because you do go there.

Hi, first of all, I'd like to thank you for all the interesting and insightful answers!

I'm a 0L with a question.

Joint-degree program1) Do you know people who are doing joint-degree programs with the law school? especially those with a program outside of UVA (i.e. MBA at Georgetown)

2) Do you know what the UVA law policy on or attitude towards doing a joint-degree program with an institution that is not UVA-affiliated? I have acceptance from a good MBA program - the school is very lenient/flexible towards doing a JD/MBA program with any law school as long as law school allows that (and I have heard people at the MBA program who did create a JD/MBA joint-degree program with other law schools).

3) Financial aid: I was lucky enough to get some scholarship from UVA. In the letter, they say it's $ per year. Is scholarship applied towards the tuition on semester-level or annual level?

pulandasu wrote:Hi, first of all, I'd like to thank you for all the interesting and insightful answers!

I'm a 0L with a question.

Joint-degree program1) Do you know people who are doing joint-degree programs with the law school? especially those with a program outside of UVA (i.e. MBA at Georgetown)

2) Do you know what the UVA law policy on or attitude towards doing a joint-degree program with an institution that is not UVA-affiliated? I have acceptance from a good MBA program - the school is very lenient/flexible towards doing a JD/MBA program with any law school as long as law school allows that (and I have heard people at the MBA program who did create a JD/MBA joint-degree program with other law schools).

3) Financial aid: I was lucky enough to get some scholarship from UVA. In the letter, they say it's $ per year. Is scholarship applied towards the tuition on semester-level or annual level?

Thanks in advance!

1. I know one person doing a JD/MBA, both at UVA. I don't know of anyone doing a joint degree somewhere else (I vaguely knew someone who was studying business at UVA and was getting a Master's in something in W&L).

2. You'd want to talk to Admissions/SRO (although please don't talk to SRO until after they post Fall 2010 grades).

3. It should be applied on a semester basis.

Thanks!

Yeah, I figured I would need to talk to Admissions / SRO. (what does SRO stand for? Student Registrar?)

pulandasu wrote:Hi, first of all, I'd like to thank you for all the interesting and insightful answers!

I'm a 0L with a question.

Joint-degree program1) Do you know people who are doing joint-degree programs with the law school? especially those with a program outside of UVA (i.e. MBA at Georgetown)

2) Do you know what the UVA law policy on or attitude towards doing a joint-degree program with an institution that is not UVA-affiliated? I have acceptance from a good MBA program - the school is very lenient/flexible towards doing a JD/MBA program with any law school as long as law school allows that (and I have heard people at the MBA program who did create a JD/MBA joint-degree program with other law schools).

3) Financial aid: I was lucky enough to get some scholarship from UVA. In the letter, they say it's $ per year. Is scholarship applied towards the tuition on semester-level or annual level?

Thanks in advance!

I know someone doing a joint masters at another school; however, it's an international affairs masters that's not offered at UVA.

I know several UVA JD/MBA's who like the program. However, the most successful JD/MBA's I know have very distinct and discernible reasons for obtaining the MBA (i.e., they aren't just adding it on). Unless you have a very specific reason for wanting the MBA as well, I'd hold off. That said, I think the Darden generally ranks the same or higher than Georgetown. If you don't get into Darden before starting law school, you can apply as a 1L.

pulandasu wrote:Hi, first of all, I'd like to thank you for all the interesting and insightful answers!

I'm a 0L with a question.

Joint-degree program1) Do you know people who are doing joint-degree programs with the law school? especially those with a program outside of UVA (i.e. MBA at Georgetown)

2) Do you know what the UVA law policy on or attitude towards doing a joint-degree program with an institution that is not UVA-affiliated? I have acceptance from a good MBA program - the school is very lenient/flexible towards doing a JD/MBA program with any law school as long as law school allows that (and I have heard people at the MBA program who did create a JD/MBA joint-degree program with other law schools).

3) Financial aid: I was lucky enough to get some scholarship from UVA. In the letter, they say it's $ per year. Is scholarship applied towards the tuition on semester-level or annual level?

Thanks in advance!

I know someone doing a joint masters at another school; however, it's an international affairs masters that's not offered at UVA.

I know several UVA JD/MBA's who like the program. However, the most successful JD/MBA's I know have very distinct and discernible reasons for obtaining the MBA (i.e., they aren't just adding it on). Unless you have a very specific reason for wanting the MBA as well, I'd hold off. That said, I think the Darden generally ranks the same or higher than Georgetown. If you don't get into Darden before starting law school, you can apply as a 1L.

Thanks for the prompt response. Sorry for confusion - I was just using Georgetown as an example. I'm a MBA-bound who wants to complement that with law school education. I think I have a pretty focused reason for going for law and MBA degree. It's good to hear that they are people who're doing a graduate study outside of UVa - it certainly shows that UVA law is flexible!

You guys think it would hurt you for OGI if you take seminar classes during 2nd semester of 1L? I have one 4-unit elective and one 2-unit elective, not sure if I should be taking 2 4-unit classes instead.

TigerBeer wrote:You guys think it would hurt you for OGI if you take seminar classes during 2nd semester of 1L? I have one 4-unit elective and one 2-unit elective, not sure if I should be taking 2 4-unit classes instead.

TigerBeer wrote:You guys think it would hurt you for OGI if you take seminar classes during 2nd semester of 1L? I have one 4-unit elective and one 2-unit elective, not sure if I should be taking 2 4-unit classes instead.

Employers don't care . . . but, seminars can hurt GPA's.

What do you mean that seminars can hurt GPAs? Do you mean in cases where the seminar is one that gives out 90% B+s and you're above a 3.3?

Also, when you say that employers don't care, is there a limit to that? If my electives were all kind of wishy-washy sounding classes, that wouldn't put me at an advantage against someone who took accounting/finance and corporations (I pretty much just picked 2 classes that sound business-y, clearly I am a noob who doesn't know anything)?

TigerBeer wrote:You guys think it would hurt you for OGI if you take seminar classes during 2nd semester of 1L? I have one 4-unit elective and one 2-unit elective, not sure if I should be taking 2 4-unit classes instead.

Employers don't care . . . but, seminars can hurt GPA's.

What do you mean that seminars can hurt GPAs? Do you mean in cases where the seminar is one that gives out 90% B+s and you're above a 3.3?

Also, when you say that employers don't care, is there a limit to that? If my electives were all kind of wishy-washy sounding classes, that wouldn't put me at an advantage against someone who took accounting/finance and corporations (I pretty much just picked 2 classes that sound business-y, clearly I am a noob who doesn't know anything)?

Seminars tend to give a lot of B+s, and doing well in them requires different skills than doing well on an exam does, so yes, if you're aiming for a GPA above a 3.3, you want to be careful before taking seminars as a 1L. Courses basically don't matter for OGI. You can use your course selections to show a commitment to a particular area of law, but that's by no means necessary. If for whatever reason you're interviewing for a job later on (as a 3L, say), and all of your courses are things like "Feminist Opinions on Climate Change," that will probably raise some eyebrows, but for now it doesn't matter.

I'd be a lot more wary of taking a normal class that gives C's rather than a one hour seminar that gives B+s. 1 hour of a B+ isn't going to do much damage (or provide much assistance) to your GPA regardless of what it is. 3-4 hours of a C is deadly no matter what your GPA is.

On another note, what is wrong with this school when it comes to releasing grades? This is absolutely ridiculous.

TigerBeer wrote:You guys think it would hurt you for OGI if you take seminar classes during 2nd semester of 1L? I have one 4-unit elective and one 2-unit elective, not sure if I should be taking 2 4-unit classes instead.

Employers don't care . . . but, seminars can hurt GPA's.

What do you mean that seminars can hurt GPAs? Do you mean in cases where the seminar is one that gives out 90% B+s and you're above a 3.3?

Also, when you say that employers don't care, is there a limit to that? If my electives were all kind of wishy-washy sounding classes, that wouldn't put me at an advantage against someone who took accounting/finance and corporations (I pretty much just picked 2 classes that sound business-y, clearly I am a noob who doesn't know anything)?

Seminars tend to give a lot of B+s, and doing well in them requires different skills than doing well on an exam does, so yes, if you're aiming for a GPA above a 3.3, you want to be careful before taking seminars as a 1L. Courses basically don't matter for OGI. You can use your course selections to show a commitment to a particular area of law, but that's by no means necessary. If for whatever reason you're interviewing for a job later on (as a 3L, say), and all of your courses are things like "Feminist Opinions on Climate Change," that will probably raise some eyebrows, but for now it doesn't matter.

thanks, that helps.

one last question (hopefully): will employers be similarly indifferent to whether you're taking 14 or 16 units?