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It's interesting how Spiritual Energies respond to negative emotions; perhaps negative emotions generate "negative" spiritual energies, which remain in the body and perpetuate such feelings? It makes sense that Spiritual (mental) energies are intimately tied to one's mental state, and the Uchiha would naturally be the most sensitive to this, as they possess the greatest energies.

I think that's the reason that Itachi and Shisui were able to handle their Mangekyou through hardship and not suffer the same out-of-control fate that Madara/Obito/Sasuke do... they had something to moderate their feelings, a higher conviction. Itachi was able to see the bigger picture, and could resolve himself to live/die for that as long as Sasuke at least was spared. Shisui believed wholeheartedly in the village, and wasn't bound by his clan or his own circumstances. Madara/Obito/Sasuke all obsess over their losses and are completely ignorant of everything else, or view everything else as meaningless or at the very least inferior to their personal objectives.

Basically, the Uchiha need to have the discipline to control their own emotional state (and thus truly control every aspect of their Sharingan) unless they want their eyes/emotions to rule them.

Basically, the Uchiha need to have the discipline to control their own emotional state (and thus truly control every aspect of their Sharingan) unless they want their eyes/emotions to rule them.

I think that they would have been doing that, if it wasn't for that favorable side effect/symptom, that you get much stronger from it. If it was just your power letting/wasting it out (like with Bijuu power), but it really gets stronger from those feelings. Having a clear and calm mind allows Naruto to better control his Bijuu and Senjutsu powers, it makes him much more effective and thus stronger. With Sasuke, it's the other way around, the more his mind is clouded and berserk, the greater his power becomes, even his chakra reserves for specific type of jutsu seem to grow with it, so not only his jutsu get stronger, but he can even cast more of them.

I think that we have seen a symptom of what Tobiram spoke in the last Itachi vs Sasuke fight, where Sasuke's eyes, influence by fear and pain of his eye being stolen, have boosted his Normal Sharingna, to the point that he was able to break out of Itachi's Tsukuyomi (at first I thought that it might have been thanks to CS2 strengthening his kekkei genkai and natural energy disrupting his chakra, but that might not have been the case, seeing as Tsukuyomi is an instant finish jutsu). This shows just how much they are influenced, to the point that they can beat a superior doujutsu with their lesser one.

I have always thought that when Tobi and Oro were saying that Sasuke's eyes will have greater power and will become stronger than Itachi's, they meant that he had a greater potential, but in truth, it was because Sasuke's emotions were always more on the loose and potent than Itachi's, that his eyes would become stronger than his brother's.

I actually think that if Sasuke could train and master his hatred at the Waterfall of Truth, he would be able to control his Mangekyou without letting his hatred consume him. It's a little like how Naruto's anger unlocked his Bijuu power, except Sasuke "willingly" goes on his rampage. There's no real third party, it's just his own out-of-control chakra fueling his emotions fueling his chakra (and so on).

I actually think that if Sasuke could train and master his hatred at the Waterfall of Truth, he would be able to control his Mangekyou without letting his hatred consume him. It's a little like how Naruto's anger unlocked his Bijuu power, except Sasuke "willingly" goes on his rampage. There's no real third party, it's just his own out-of-control chakra fueling his emotions fueling his chakra (and so on).

I don't think the Waterfall of truth still exists. As a matter of fact, I'm not sure Kumo Gakure even exists anymore, it's probably just part of a Crater of Lake. Lake Juubi!

I am not perfect andI defy you to prove otherwise Growing Old Gracefully is an Oxymoron ... Mostly Moron !

So what you are saying is: We saw the real fully-powered Hashirama? And in a real battle with the Rama-brothers not being ET, the explosive tags would have hit them? I cannot agree, I seriously do not believe that Sarutobi would have been able to place the tags on them. Having seen how quickly Itachi can move and place clones, there is no way this cheap trick would have worked. Or do you deny that Oro's ET-Hashirama was weaker than the real one?

with et the rama-bros (im sensing more episodic rivalries and hijinks with the kin gin bros the manga will keep secret) lol "rama-bros"

anyway, if you have ever had to wake up from a long sleep due after a hard shift of back-breaking labor or sports.. even your little niece or nephew could jump on your bed and totally pwn you before you regain all your senses.. so imagine being dead for generations after serving an honest finality to your last moments and finding yourself back to living realm with no sense or idea what the heck is happening as you struggle to find out answers.

sarutobi was already postured for battle and had a very advantageous initiative against the rama bros. not only that, sarutobi had already drew the line in the sand and committed his whole being to the high stakes.

oro's personality limitations aren't just mind control. for something like that to be effective it must operate like a genjutsu or a seal that fuses with genjutsu. basically, it's a hostile system that disrupts the chakra and probably nervous system to ensure or block activity and intention. its also pissible that edo bodies are subject to fluctuations in quality. kabuto showed us that et bodies can be prepared as an improvement and augmented. what's to say that an et body couldn't be like a cheap serbian donkey cart while others are golden chariots? the bodies regenerate from wounds automatically but are they guaranteed to withstand the actual level of a godly shinobi's power wielding? there are actual physicality determined attributes, i find it hard to believe any body would behave exactly for the soul in the same manner as the original and lets not forget, we still haven't gotten the actual answer to the et summoned's chakra limitations (infinite?) just too many unoroven variables.

lastly, the et rama-bros, with souls momentarily dazed and confused from a slumber lasting generations and hurriedly shoehorned into a vessel of impure world senses long grown unaccustomed to and having personalities dulled makes their battle performance EXACTLY like the sannin fight that followed. when tsunade was asked by oro to fix his arms and jiraya stepped in for the escalation to 3 way battle, the 3 sannin each had a certain drawback and handicap that severely affected their power and ability. while oro had to fight through proxy, tsunade and jiraua's setbacks had clearly impacted their personalities (drunk/psychological disruption from phobia). point is, with those setbacks we saw three legendary shinobi offer a thoroughly disappointing performance that eluded their legendary status but at a later point we see them at full power with everything on the line, totally blowing away what we previously thought was above their limit. jiraya battling pein, tsunade toe to toe with madara (arguable but you get the lount)..s

et, imo, when summoning into a mind tagged vessel that dampens personality and dulls the will power with command override; it's going to cause setbacks more severe than what the sannin had to deal with. every indication is that the rama-bros were nowhere near full power and as zero said, operating with their will of fire already passed on. nothing on the line for them so that's another significant limitation.

to give credit where it is due, sarutobi was a right full beast even at his old age! he had a better understanding of the context of the fight, a handle on the abilities of his former mentors while they knew not just how much he developed. he even acted audaciously by using the ultimate trump at the time, dead demon seal.

even with mind tags, it is proven that there is resistance and struggling against it, further distracting the et shinobi and affording them motivation to stand down.

I have always thought that when Tobi and Oro were saying that Sasuke's eyes will have greater power and will become stronger than Itachi's, they meant that he had a greater potential, but in truth, it was because Sasuke's emotions were always more on the loose and potent than Itachi's, that his eyes would become stronger than his brother's.

That's true, but I am not convinced Itachi was weaker than Sasuke. He spared him during their fight, was undoubtedly ill (although that may just have been a trick to make him look even stronger), and he did not have the EMS. Even during Itachi's and Sasuke's fight against Kabuchimaro, Sasuke didn't look stronger than his brother.

Originally Posted by knife eater

anyway, if you have ever had to wake up from a long sleep due after a hard shift of back-breaking labor or sports.. even your little niece or nephew could jump on your bed and totally pwn you before you regain all your senses.. so imagine being dead for generations after serving an honest finality to your last moments and finding yourself back to living realm with no sense or idea what the heck is happening as you struggle to find out answers.

sarutobi was already postured for battle and had a very advantageous initiative against the rama bros. not only that, sarutobi had already drew the line in the sand and committed his whole being to the high stakes.

oro's personality limitations aren't just mind control. for something like that to be effective it must operate like a genjutsu or a seal that fuses with genjutsu. basically, it's a hostile system that disrupts the chakra and probably nervous system to ensure or block activity and intention. its also pissible that edo bodies are subject to fluctuations in quality. kabuto showed us that et bodies can be prepared as an improvement and augmented. what's to say that an et body couldn't be like a cheap serbian donkey cart while others are golden chariots? the bodies regenerate from wounds automatically but are they guaranteed to withstand the actual level of a godly shinobi's power wielding? there are actual physicality determined attributes, i find it hard to believe any body would behave exactly for the soul in the same manner as the original and lets not forget, we still haven't gotten the actual answer to the et summoned's chakra limitations (infinite?) just too many unoroven variables.

lastly, the et rama-bros, with souls momentarily dazed and confused from a slumber lasting generations and hurriedly shoehorned into a vessel of impure world senses long grown unaccustomed to and having personalities dulled makes their battle performance EXACTLY like the sannin fight that followed. when tsunade was asked by oro to fix his arms and jiraya stepped in for the escalation to 3 way battle, the 3 sannin each had a certain drawback and handicap that severely affected their power and ability. while oro had to fight through proxy, tsunade and jiraua's setbacks had clearly impacted their personalities (drunk/psychological disruption from phobia). point is, with those setbacks we saw three legendary shinobi offer a thoroughly disappointing performance that eluded their legendary status but at a later point we see them at full power with everything on the line, totally blowing away what we previously thought was above their limit. jiraya battling pein, tsunade toe to toe with madara (arguable but you get the lount)..s

et, imo, when summoning into a mind tagged vessel that dampens personality and dulls the will power with command override; it's going to cause setbacks more severe than what the sannin had to deal with. every indication is that the rama-bros were nowhere near full power and as zero said, operating with their will of fire already passed on. nothing on the line for them so that's another significant limitation.

to give credit where it is due, sarutobi was a right full beast even at his old age! he had a better understanding of the context of the fight, a handle on the abilities of his former mentors while they knew not just how much he developed. he even acted audaciously by using the ultimate trump at the time, dead demon seal.

even with mind tags, it is proven that there is resistance and struggling against it, further distracting the et shinobi and affording them motivation to stand down.

To be honest, Madara didn't look "momentarily dazed and confused from a slumber lasting generations" after he had to stand up against the five Kages, so I am having trouble to follow your thesis. But I'll give you that one: You are really trying hard to explain inconsistencies Kishi is actually still about to explain. I don't buy it, but I'll grant you nine out of ten for effort. You aren't getting paid by him, are you? ;-)

That's true, but I am not convinced Itachi was weaker than Sasuke. He spared him during their fight, was undoubtedly ill (although that may just have been a trick to make him look even stronger), and he did not have the EMS. Even during Itachi's and Sasuke's fight against Kabuchimaro, Sasuke didn't look stronger than his brother.

To be honest, Madara didn't look "momentarily dazed and confused from a slumber lasting generations" after he had to stand up against the five Kages, so I am having trouble to follow your thesis. But I'll give you that one: You are really trying hard to explain inconsistencies Kishi is actually still about to explain. I don't buy it, but I'll grant you nine out of ten for effort. You aren't getting paid by him, are you? ;-)

madara had a telepathic link to his caster, kabuto, who could immediately explain the scene and allow a much soonet realized assessment.

to be fair, madara was expecting his revival, he died in anticipation of rinnei tensei. his soul temporarily departed with that expectation ingrained and his period of slumber was dramatically less than the rama-bros. not only that, he wasn't woken with an immediate assault on his personality or will. the moment of exiting the coffin is crucial moment regarding initiative and madara had every advantage the rama-bros lacked. don't forget, some of the et shinobi in the war were initially behaving according to their last moments before death. it's easy to understand madara would not be confused and quickly assume his battle posture. hashirama and tobirama were revived by oro after they had already surrendered their life without expectations of returning.

even with this et, the hokages were momentarily confused and this was the second time around for the ramas. i dont see any inconsistencies in regards to this except with each edo tensei we see new variables and factors at play that alters the caster 's participation and control as well as the power levels of the et shinobi fluctuating, often at the discretion of the caster. kabuto infused his edo tensei with sage chakra and condiderably boosted zabuza's power while he resisted.

I actually think that if Sasuke could train and master his hatred at the Waterfall of Truth, he would be able to control his Mangekyou without letting his hatred consume him. It's a little like how Naruto's anger unlocked his Bijuu power, except Sasuke "willingly" goes on his rampage. There's no real third party, it's just his own out-of-control chakra fueling his emotions fueling his chakra (and so on).

Thts an interesting thought I hadn't even considered,

Originally Posted by paulbee

I don't think the Waterfall of truth still exists. As a matter of fact, I'm not sure Kumo Gakure even exists anymore, it's probably just part of a Crater of Lake. Lake Juubi!

The Jyuubi hit the Shinobi HQ not the Cloud village located further north or the turtle where the Falls exists which is near the coast.

Well I suppose the turtle is closer to the Shinobi HQ but I'm not sure how close.