NTRP Questions...

I was browsing through the forum and noticed a TON of misguided/false thoughts, claims, answers, etc about NTRP. I work for the USTA as a district NTRP Coordinator and thought that I would try and help to clear up any questions that players might have. It's crazy how many players call me in my district every year with statements/rumors that they think are fact when it comes to NTRP. I'm new to this spot and don't know if there is anyone else already doing this that works with USTA, but like I said, through a quick first glance I came across a lot of false info. So with that... please feel free to ask any questions that you might have and I'll try my best to check back frequently to provide answers... with what I am allowed to tell you of course :wink: Can't provide your rating to the hundreth, kinda want to keep my job.

Here's my first basic overview... I'm sure many of the more active players already know this but there are plenty that do not.

How NTRP works (basic explanation):
There is a table that contains the expected outcome (specific score) for every possible match up of players. If you are a 3.45 and I am a 3.30, you will be expected to win by a certain margin. For example’s sake, we’ll say that expected outcome is 6-3, 6-3. If you do win by that exact score, we will both receive a match rating that is the same as our start rate. Note: Start rates are the prior year’s ‘year-end rating’ or for self-rated players a 0.0. If you win the match 6-4, 6-4, I exceeded the expected result, so even though I lost, my rating for that match will be slightly higher than before (ex: maybe up .03). Your rating would drop the same amount for that match. If you win the match 6-2, 6-2, your rating will improve and mine will drop. These match ratings will be averaged to come up with our year-end rating.

There are hundreds of other variables that can also be considered. The algorithm for doubles is very complex, but basically will do the same thing as explained above, but using the average of the two people on the court to determine what the expected outcome would be.

Any player who participated in Championship levels (i.e. Districts, Sectionals and/or Nationals) becomes a Benchmark rated player. Also, anyone who is dynamically disqualified during the league season would become a benchmark. This does not indicate in any way, the level of the player. The rating calculation starts at the National benchmark level, down to Sectionals, down to Districts, down to the local level. Benchmarks drive the ratings for all other players. If you became a benchmark by advancing to Districts and I played against you during the regular season, that match would be weighted more heavily for me, so it could affect my rating more.

One myth that exists (among many) is that the position has an impact on your rating. This is completely false. It doesn’t matter if you play #1 singles or #3 doubles. It just matters who your opponent is since that will determine how you should do in that specific match. Another source of confusion is the assumption that winning means you will move up and losing means you will move down. If a player won every match by a margin that is less than expected, she could actually move down with an undefeated record. Likewise, a player who loses every match could actually move up if she lost by a closer than expected margin in every match. Often times, players’ ratings are moving small or large amounts, but within the level (not quite across the line to the next level).

The 3.5 level is from 3.01 up to 3.50; 4.0 is from 3.51 up to 4.00 and so on. It is possible for one player to have a terrific season and move up .20, but if she started at 3.24, that will move her up to 3.44 and she’ll still be a 3.5. A different player, who had a much worse season, could have started at 3.48 and moved up to 3.52; so she would be a 4.0 level player. If this part of it were transparent, I believe there would be far fewer complaints because players would be able to see that the system is working very well. Unfortunately, since this type of information could be misused by many players, USTA National still does not provide it.

Hopefully that will help you to understand some of the basics behind how NTRP works. Please let me know if you have any other questions.

Nice of you to offer this info! I for one am curious what the most common misinformation about NTRP is that you encounter. You mention a couple things in your post, but since you say there is a lot, I'd be curious what it is--both on this board and elsewhere in general.

Nice of you to offer this info! I for one am curious what the most common misinformation about NTRP is that you encounter. You mention a couple things in your post, but since you say there is a lot, I'd be curious what it is--both on this board and elsewhere in general.

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Again, I just browsed quickly so don't have exact specifics on this board but I did see someone mention that nothing except for USTA leagues (Adult, Senior, Super Senior) counts towards your rating, ie. no tournaments or local leagues. Any sactioned tournament definitely does go towards your rating and unless the local district has specifically opted out NTRP for a league, then they will count as well. USTA leagues are weighted slightly heavier however.

Also the points mentioned in the second post are the huge ones... win/loss record, position played, benchmarks being the top of level. You could be the lowest rated 3.5 possible, a 3.01, and have a benchmark.

Again, I just browsed quickly so don't have exact specifics on this board but I did see someone mention that nothing except for USTA leagues (Adult, Senior, Super Senior) counts towards your rating, ie. no tournaments or local leagues. Any sactioned tournament definitely does go towards your rating and unless the local district has specifically opted out NTRP for a league, then they will count as well. USTA leagues are weighted slightly heavier however.
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You may want to check your facts on thse statements.

Each section determines whether or not tournament count into NTRP calculations. Some count them into NTRP and some don't.

Each section determines whether or not tournament count into NTRP calculations. Some count them into NTRP and some don't.

Do open and age goup tourneys count? I thought they didn't?

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You are correct... Typo/unintentional omit on my part (happens a bit as you can see from the one in my user name). Sections/districts (some sections ultimately let the districts decide) have the option on what counts, however they must specifically opt out as the default is to include all tournaments/leagues. The vast majority of the 17 sections do use tournaments however.

Thank you for posting ... most of what you have said is not new to us. When these questions surface there are some misleading responses but the majority of folks get it right.

This is the first of two questions ... last year we had several folks elevated in early start ratings which in my section are posted in September. By Year-End, nearly everyone of those folks were subsequently returned back to their previous levels.

When other teams complained about how few bump-ups there were, our Section Coordinator said that our section's representative played poorly at nationals and our section used their discretion to "dial back" our ratings.

Just how much discretion does a section have in manipulating the year-end ratings of their section?

Besides the male - female debate ... a close second involves the self rate scourge.

The number one solution that comes up is limiting the availability of self rated players for the post season. I suspect that these decisions are made way above your pay grade ... but is there ever any discussion in the USTA about self rated players, other than to figure out how to get more of them into the system?

Again, I just browsed quickly so don't have exact specifics on this board but I did see someone mention that nothing except for USTA leagues (Adult, Senior, Super Senior) counts towards your rating, ie. no tournaments or local leagues. Any sactioned tournament definitely does go towards your rating and unless the local district has specifically opted out NTRP for a league, then they will count as well. USTA leagues are weighted slightly heavier however.

Also the points mentioned in the second post are the huge ones... win/loss record, position played, benchmarks being the top of level. You could be the lowest rated 3.5 possible, a 3.01, and have a benchmark.

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How far back in time do these calculations go? I played NTRP tournaments years ago, will that always effect my top secret rating even as I get older?

These are the kinds of statements that spread false information... There are 5 people in the country with access to the expected outcomes chart. So unless on of them gave you the information, which they aren't supposed to do then this has no proof

You are correct... Typo/unintentional omit on my part (happens a bit as you can see from the one in my user name). Sections/districts (some sections ultimately let the districts decide) have the option on what counts, however they must specifically opt out as the default is to include all tournaments/leagues. The vast majority of the 17 sections do use tournaments however.

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Well when you say that sanctioned tournaments definitely do count, but they actually don't in some cases, then there is nothing definite about it at all. The largest section in the USTA, the southern section, does not count them. That is not exactly a small exception (180,000+ members) wouldn't you agree?. Pacific Northwest also doesn't.

I am getting the picture that you know your local rules very well. The national picture I am not as sure.

Well when you say that sanctioned tournaments definitely do count, but they actually don't in some cases, then there is nothing definite about it at all. The largest section in the USTA, the southern section, does not count them. That is not exactly a small exception (180,000+ members) wouldn't you agree?. Pacific Northwest also doesn't.

I am getting the picture that you know your local rules very well. The national picture I am not as sure.

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I'm no expert on the Southern section, but #12 on this list disagrees with you. It looks out of date, but I'm not sure the rule would have changed to exclude NTRP tournaments from the national NTRP rating. That just seems illogical.

I'm no expert on the Southern section, but #12 on this list disagrees with you. It looks out of date, but I'm not sure the rule would have changed to exclude NTRP tournaments from the national NTRP rating. That just seems illogical.

1) I called myself out on that typo, everyone is quick to troll spelling online

2) that's completely fine be me, I don't need your approval. Not sure why anyone would pose as a USTA employee to provide false answers for LEAGUE tennis though.

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Hello LeagueCO, and welcome to AlGorhytm's internet, brimming with paranoia and the need for perfectionism--in others. I admire your courage and fortitude to wade into the murky waters here. I believe you stated you are relatively new to being a league CO so perhaps you will use this as a useful training tool to practice the situations that you may face under heavier fire someday, like having to disqualify Serena Williams for foot-faulting on match point at the USO.

You are in a great position to clarify the mysteries of the NTRP numbers game that are an endless source of Monday morning quarterbacking here. There's another brave fellow here, Woodrow, an umpire, who has been an invaluable source of edumacating us ignorant of the rules and lost tennis souls here. Now if we could only get Lindsay Crawford/Crawford Lindsay, from TW University, to make cameo appearances to tell us "It's not the violin, but the violinist", when it comes to smacking the fuzzy yellow sphere.

I would personally like to know how you feel Senior Age Group tournies fit into the grand scheme of USTA tennis, what you think of their future and how they interdigitate with NTRP league tennis--or don't?

You seem to have the cojones to stick around and I for one hope you do. LCO, just pretend you've time traveled and you're facing the Spanish Inquisition--they probably played some form of court tennis back then. It's a little know fact, that Christopher Columbus, was not really looking for the western passage to India in 1492, but instead exploring for rubber to make proper tennis balls (Dunlop Grand Prix) and rain-coats to keep dry in the stands at the USO.

I'm no expert on the Southern section, but #12 on this list disagrees with you. It looks out of date, but I'm not sure the rule would have changed to exclude NTRP tournaments from the national NTRP rating. That just seems illogical.
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Out of date

2012 regulations:

2.05A Applicability. The regulations in this section are applicable to the Adult, Senior, Super Senior, and Mixed
divisions. Players may appeal their NTRP rating in accordance with the procedures of the USTA NTRP Computer
Rating System and their State Appeal Procedures. Match results from NTRP Tournaments in TennisLink will NOT
be included in the 2011 year-end ratings.

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The main reason I could see for excluding NTRP tournaments is that people were using them as a means to manage their ratings i.e enter a couple tournaments near the end of the year and lose badly to make sure you don't get bumped.

I am not an expert on the Southern section or NTRP rating system either. But if you claim to be one- uh you better know what you are talking about or you won't have much credibility.

The main reason I could see for excluding NTRP tournaments is that people were using them as a means to manage their ratings i.e enter a couple tournaments near the end of the year and lose badly to make sure you don't get bumped.

I am not an expert on the Southern section or NTRP rating system either. But if you claim to be one- uh you better know what you are talking about or you won't have much credibility.

Roughly speaking, what type of numerical factor does the benchmark carry:

-for the player who is benchmarked by being on a team that will be in Nationals, does the player/team that is in Nationals automatically get bumped up?

-for the player (me) who beat this now benchmarked player...

we played this team twice in league. I beat two of their players in singles... so now I have wins vs two benchmarked players. How significant is this in factoring my chance for getting bumped up?

(Their first player was 4-3 in league, I beat him 6-4 6-3 and I think we both know I have his number if we play again. He went 2-0 in doubles in the ******* sectionals.

The second player "joined" the team late... wink, wink, nudge, nudge. He was 0-2 in league, I beat him 6-2 7-6 and I think he is gonna get a lot better quickly. I think because of his youth and tennis center connections it won't take long before he has a clear edge if we play again. He played singles 0-1 in districts, 1-1 in states, 2-2 in ******* sectional.)

edit: lol.... the word "M I D west" is forbidden? I understand the implication of it being a competitor to TW... but that funny

A few questions if you don't mind:
1) Couple years ago the ratings were adjusted (at least in Norcal) to more accurately reflect the ratings as in other locations. How was this done? Did everyone just get an extra fixed increase in their dynamic ratings?

2) My understanding is mixed results don't count as long as you have 3 adult league matches. So if I played 20 mixed matches with 2 adult league matches, I'd have a "M" rating based on all the mixed results. But if my friend played 20 mixed matches with 3 adult league matches, he'd have a "C" rating based on those 3 adult league matches and none of his 20 mixed would count. Is this right? If so, personally I feel that all results should count including combo, but weighted differently.

3) Why don't matches played with a full third set have that score count instead of just 1-0? Tournaments do it and a computer rating does take into account tournament results.

4) Will anything be done about self-rated players? They should get bumped up much easier.

I was browsing through the forum and noticed a TON of misguided/false thoughts, claims, answers, etc about NTRP. I work for the USTA as a district NTRP Coordinator and thought that I would try and help to clear up any questions that players might have. It's crazy how many players call me in my district every year with statements/rumors that they think are fact when it comes to NTRP. I'm new to this spot and don't know if there is anyone else already doing this that works with USTA, but like I said, through a quick first glance I came across a lot of false info. So with that... please feel free to ask any questions that you might have and I'll try my best to check back frequently to provide answers... with what I am allowed to tell you of course :wink: Can't provide your rating to the hundreth, kinda want to keep my job.

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This is the original post, how anyone can read any ill will into this is beyond me. I hope TWTT hasn't lost a valuable source of knowledgeable information. It seems the discrepancies are due to regional anomalies. I hope LeagueCO returns and understands the vast majority here welcome him/her.

Welcome to the forums and thanks for your valuable contributions leaugeCO. Don't let a few negative feedback dissuade you from posting. There are always detractors, and typically these folk are just more vocal than supporters. That's just human nature. However, know that there may be many, many more out there who lurk or don't post often but really value your insight.

I would like to know more about benchmarking. Members of my league team have been benchmarked at different levels during different seasons. For example, if I remember correctly (big if), we made it to 3.5 sectionals once, and a bunch of us were 4.0B (the next level) the next season. Another time, I think we made it to 4.0 playoffs or districts, and then some were benchmarked at 4.0B (the same level but B) the next season. How does that work? When do you become benchmarked at the next level vs the current level? Also, do benchmarked players continue to get dynamic NTRP ratings? If so, do they take effect the following season?

This is the original post, how anyone can read any ill will into this is beyond me. I hope TWTT hasn't lost a valuable source of knowledgeable information. It seems the discrepancies are due to regional anomalies. I hope LeagueCO returns and understands the vast majority here welcome him/her.

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I agree... people are so quick to try to discredit, come on back LeagueCO, use the ignore if you need to.

Reading some of the negative posts just furthers my theory that the sport of tennis has a disproportionate amount of people who are wired differently upstairs when compared to other sports.

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I agree. I used to play quite a bit of league softball. 15-20 years ago, the softball league fees were about $40 per season. I never heard anyone complain about how expensive the fees were. I never heard anyone talking about the administration of the leagues, and no one even knew who ran the leagues. I never saw anyone get into arguments. They just showed up and played softball and enjoyed it.

I started playing tennis about 12 years ago, and couldn't believe the constant whining about how expensive the fees are.....even though they are less than $35 per season. I couldn't believe the constant complaining about league administration, and was shocked when many captains would pick up the phone and call the USTA league coordinator at the drop of a hat. They treated the league coordinator as though he was a 24/7 on call service. Then when he answered a question they'd argue with him. (That LC is long gone now. I heard he quit tennis altogether and won't pick up a racquet anymore.)

As soon as I saw the OP's post I knew he'd get blasted by people trying to discredit him. I also noticed that a lot of the questions posted here can be answered by looking at the USTA national website, or most section websites. Very typical for tennis. Hardly anyone reads information made available to them.....they just ask questions.

Oh please. I count 21 people besides the OP who have posted in this thread and it looks like only two that I can see who criticized or called his or her authenticity into question (my guess is the OP is a woman fwiw) and those comments looked to be pretty mild to me.

I could say more on the subject but I'll drop it now. I wouldn't want Tom or any others of you who are so deeply offended at the OPs treatment to require hospitalization.

So still, leaugeCO, here are my questions to you as an LC and without you having to give any specifics:

how do you go about setting up the flights/leagues (I ask because we have two different philosophies in our area: some who purposely seek to distribute the slots while others have a "blind draw" approach)

what's the weirdest "grievance"/complaint you've had to deal with

what's the most common complaint you have to deal with

do you actually play yourself

what's the main thing you wish just regular players "knew" about how USTA works

if you were "in charge" of everything, what's the first thing you would change

if you could wave a magic wand over the tennis-playing population, what would you wish for

if you could wave a magic wand over the general population, what tennis-related thing would you wish for, and

finally, what motivates you to do what you do...i.e. being an LC

My hat's off to you for being an LC and being willing to post here. Like tennis tom, I tend to think your intentions are good (dare I say great), but some venerable TT posters have called a few things out. All good, I say. Just be careful in making gross declarations since USTA seems to be anything but consistent ATM. Hang with us, for the moment. We can be an entertaining bunch.

how do you go about setting up the flights/leagues (I ask because we have two different philosophies in our area: some who purposely seek to distribute the slots while others have a "blind draw" approach)

what's the weirdest "grievance"/complaint you've had to deal with

what's the most common complaint you have to deal with

do you actually play yourself

what's the main thing you wish just regular players "knew" about how USTA works

if you were "in charge" of everything, what's the first thing you would change

if you could wave a magic wand over the tennis-playing population, what would you wish for

if you could wave a magic wand over the general population, what tennis-related thing would you wish for, and

finally, what motivates you to do what you do...i.e. being an LC

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Those are good questions Angle Queen, I'd like to see the answers to them too! You compose a very nice post too, kudos.

I started playing tennis about 12 years ago, and couldn't believe the constant whining about how expensive the fees are.....even though they are less than $35 per season.

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Agreed, there's a lot of cheapskates playing tennis! I don't get it, the price of balls hasn't increased since I started playing fifty years ago, you can get them on sale for $1.99. I always have a new can in my bag and pull it out when I get to the court. There was an "old pro" this week in our rec group who is notorious for never opening a can. He proudly announces he just bought a case of Penns at
Costco. So we ask him to open a can, he says they're in the trunk of his car (a new Mercedes). We said we can wait 'til he gets them. I love it when they say they have a can--but it's in the trunk--or under their desk at work.