I've been looking into the same region as you (well hell, to be honest I don't know what region I HAVEN'T been looking into) and I think that if you are able to get in the 160s, you should be fine for admissions at most of the schools on that Midwest list, with maybes at UW and UM. I had a 160 in February and am hoping for 162+ for what we just took and I am applying to Case, Cincy, Mich State, UW, and UM. Highest bidder wins, unless I get in at UM.

edit: Notre Dame might be a toughie too... but seriously you should look at Cincy.

ashley12 wrote:I've been looking into the same region as you (well hell, to be honest I don't know what region I HAVEN'T been looking into) and I think that if you are able to get in the 160s, you should be fine for admissions at most of the schools on that Midwest list, with maybes at UW and UM. I had a 160 in February and am hoping for 162+ for what we just took and I am applying to Case, Cincy, Mich State, UW, and UM. Highest bidder wins, unless I get in at UM.

edit: Notre Dame might be a toughie too... but seriously you should look at Cincy.

ashley12 wrote:I've been looking into the same region as you (well hell, to be honest I don't know what region I HAVEN'T been looking into) and I think that if you are able to get in the 160s, you should be fine for admissions at most of the schools on that Midwest list, with maybes at UW and UM. I had a 160 in February and am hoping for 162+ for what we just took and I am applying to Case, Cincy, Mich State, UW, and UM. Highest bidder wins, unless I get in at UM.

edit: Notre Dame might be a toughie too... but seriously you should look at Cincy.

FWIW, I was admitted to Case with a 3.33 and a 159 last cycle.

Sweet, good to know. Mind telling any scholarship offerings? I like Case but it seems like such an oddity of a school. It's hard to get a feel for it.

ashley12 wrote:I've been looking into the same region as you (well hell, to be honest I don't know what region I HAVEN'T been looking into) and I think that if you are able to get in the 160s, you should be fine for admissions at most of the schools on that Midwest list, with maybes at UW and UM. I had a 160 in February and am hoping for 162+ for what we just took and I am applying to Case, Cincy, Mich State, UW, and UM. Highest bidder wins, unless I get in at UM.

edit: Notre Dame might be a toughie too... but seriously you should look at Cincy.

FWIW, I was admitted to Case with a 3.33 and a 159 last cycle.

Sweet, good to know. Mind telling any scholarship offerings? I like Case but it seems like such an oddity of a school. It's hard to get a feel for it.

I like U-Madison because you don't have to take the bar, it's not that expensive even without a scholarship, and it has a great rep in Wisconsin, at Wisconsin's big firms on down. 3.63/163 medians, so if you get at or over that LSAT median, you have a decent shot.

If you're a Michigan resident, Wayne will do just as well as State in almost everything. Wayne is in a better location (although I won't argue that Detroit is better than Lansing, you will have a much easier time finding a job in Metro Detroit than Mid-Michigan [with the possible exception of government]). Wayne's tuition ($25K/yr) is way better than Michigan State ($36K/yr), and it generally has a good reputation in Michigan and Metro Detroit. State isn't bad, but it's definitely still up-and-coming. You would be insane to go for sticker, but a reasonable scholarship would (and did) make me think twice.

msuz wrote:Background: 3.64 GPA, getting LSAT back in a week, not URM, will get no lower than 155 and probably no higher than 165. Looking to go into Criminal law to practice in Michigan or Chicago, but also open to other places in Midwest ie, Cleveland, Madison, etc.

I'm debt-averse, but I dont have huge undergrad debt so its not as big a problem for me as it might be for others. Schools on my list so far: DePaul, Case-Western, Michigan State, Wisconsin, Notre Dame, Illinois. For the last three, not sure if I want to pay sticker at a higher ranked school though. And hell, Ill probably throw in a UM app just for kicks if I get into the mid 160s on the LSAT. Also applying to local T3. Am I missing any obvious ones?

This is not exactly an obvious suggestion, but if you are not against attending a T3, as your post seems to indicate, I would definitely suggest looking into Cleveland-Marshall. Yes, it is a local T3, and a JD for C-M won't carry with it the national clout that a few of the schools you mentioned in your original post would, but I have worked in CLE with more than a few C-M grads and they have all been able to develop very successful Criminal law practices.

Having worked in the legal community for a few years in Cleveland, I can tell you that C-M is actually a very respected institution -- many of the large local firms are run by C-M grads, and most of the Cleveland Muni & Cuyahoga County Common Pleas Court Judges are CSU alumni. While CWRU does have more national recognition than C-M, locally the two are equally respected.

Additionally, why pay $40k+ a year to attend CWRU, when you could receive your JD from C-M for right around $20k a year? Especially when you consider that, based on your GPA and predicted LSAT performance, your actual tuition would most likely be substantially reduced by scholarship offers.

contrasisyphi wrote:This is not exactly an obvious suggestion, but if you are not against attending a T3, as your post seems to indicate, I would definitely suggest looking into Cleveland-Marshall. Yes, it is a local T3, and a JD for C-M won't carry with it the national clout that a few of the schools you mentioned in your original post would, but I have worked in CLE with more than a few C-M grads and they have all been able to develop very successful Criminal law practices.

Having worked in the legal community for a few years in Cleveland, I can tell you that C-M is actually a very respected institution -- many of the large local firms are run by C-M grads, and most of the Cleveland Muni & Cuyahoga County Common Pleas Court Judges are CSU alumni. While CWRU does have more national recognition than C-M, locally the two are equally respected.

Additionally, why pay $40k+ a year to attend CWRU, when you could receive your JD from C-M for right around $20k a year? Especially when you consider that, based on your GPA and predicted LSAT performance, your actual tuition would most likely be substantially reduced by scholarship offers.

Just something to think about.

If OP hits the high range of his LSAT, and if CWRU is giving out schollies in the same way as last year, he would be looking at a full ride or very close from them.

msuz wrote:Ok well I got my LSAT back, so I'll update my sitatuation. I got a 158, which I dont think is really indicative of my abilities, especially since I went from a diag of 144 to PTing 163 in only 2 months of studying. But here are my options, since I really want to apply this cycle;

1) Retake in December2) Apply to some of the local schools and go only if I get money

The thing is, even with a 158 I think I have a decent chance at some scholarship money to the local schools (MSU/Wayne), so I feel like I should test the waters. If Im going to have to end up taking out 80k in loans anyway Ill definately retake, but like I said before I have little undergrad debt so a couple thousand wouldnt hurt me too bad.

Even if I did retake and got closer to the 160-somethings, I doubt I would be eligible for any amount of scholarship money that would make schools like ND/CW/UI/DePaul worth it, especially since I wouldnt be able to apply until around January.

Again, only going to speak to CWRU specifically, but they were practically begging low 160s applicants to apply/attend pretty late into last year's cycle.

I don't think that there is any harm in applying now even if you plan to retake in December. It is unlikely that you'll see much action of your apps before then anyhow. You can always let the school know that you're retaking and they will generally put a hold on action on your apps until the updated score is in.

I would have to check the stats, but I think Iowa and WUSTL are almost certainly out as well.

msuz wrote:I recently read some of the thread about Illinois' former Dean and that whole scandal. Would retaking/applying there even be worth it?

I don't think Illinois has an app fee so just a $16 fee for reporting. You're probably out with a 158 there as well, but it doesn't cost much to apply so it may be worth it. I am of the opinion that the concern over the scandal will eventually die down and Illinois will regain some of it's marred prestige. I think it's worth re-taking if you're unhappy with the schools you'll be getting into. A couple months of studying > a couple decades of regretting you didn't give it another shot. But if you're happy where you'll end up, then screw it and happily attend. You're not gunning for biglaw or a prestigious clerkship so some of the advice on here doesn't apply to you as much.

It might be worth retaking to try to get more money, even if retaking doesn't change what school you end up attending. TLS, can an improvement from a December retake change the scholarship calculation?

TommyK wrote:msuz wrote:I recently read some of the thread about Illinois' former Dean and that whole scandal. Would retaking/applying there even be worth it?

I don't think Illinois has an app fee so just a $16 fee for reporting. You're probably out with a 158 there as well, but it doesn't cost much to apply so it may be worth it. I am of the opinion that the concern over the scandal will eventually die down and Illinois will regain some of it's marred prestige. I think it's worth re-taking if you're unhappy with the schools you'll be getting into. A couple months of studying > a couple decades of regretting you didn't give it another shot. But if you're happy where you'll end up, then screw it and happily attend. You're not gunning for biglaw or a prestigious clerkship so some of the advice on here doesn't apply to you as much.

Appreciate the candid advice. Im against a retake unless I dont get that much $. Im very against waiting another year to work on getting my LSAT to around 170 to have a shot at UM/UC/NW etc. If I did retake in Decemeber, Im betting the best I could do right now is mid-160s, which isnt good enough for those schools anyway. UofI would be the only one of the "top" schools Id have a chance at, but I recognize that Itd really be rolling the dice bc of the scandal AND the debt I would probably have.

I had to edit this post like 4 times, sorry.

Mid-160's would probably get you into Iowa, UIUC, probably IUB, Wisconsin, etc. But really - if you're going to do criminal law, you have to make the determination if it would be worth it. Go for the $$$, baby!

Well, pretty much anyone can get instate tuition if they choose to live in KY for their 1L year, so that's helpful. They also have a small class size of 125, and claim that means more people get to do journals and clinics-including judicial externships with the Sixth Circuit