People recognize that "roma" can be blonde. The trouble is when you see two adults who are black haired and swarthy skinned, with a little girl who has pale skin and platinum blonde hair. The logical assumption when the child doesn't look even slightly related to the adults is that they were either adopted or kidnapped.

simplicimus:adamatari: Well, the New York Times printed an article about how the Romani are primitive criminals, so I guess even getting gassed by Hitler wasn't enough to put them on the "unacceptable to hate publicly" list.

Seriously, if this was 1920 it would be the Jews and homosexuals, but somehow Romani still get shiat on this level? The Greek case is a perfect example - they explained the circumstances, which happened to be true, and yet it's been made out like they were trafficking in children.

I guess they should agitate for a homeland, so the next time they get genocided they can take a turn being in charge. Maybe Hungary.

I think it is part of Roma culture not to belong to any country. Apparently, they've been wandering for 1100 years and show no inclination to stop. On the other hand, they must have passports to cross countries, so I don't know how that works.

Apparently they are related to the Travellers people who can never settle anywhere because the guy who created the Nails that were used on the cross follow them.Look if you want to get out of your financial hell you obey the laws of the land, learn to cut back on the mega dresses and weddings, stop being such ass holes to your kids and women with your backwoods catholic traditions, get a job, get a home and start cutin' back on the baby making and get an education. Once you do that for a a generation or two you'll see people's attitudes change.

HotWingAgenda:People recognize that "roma" can be blonde. The trouble is when you see two adults who are black haired and swarthy skinned, with a little girl who has pale skin and platinum blonde hair. The logical assumption when the child doesn't look even slightly related to the adults is that they were either adopted or kidnapped.

What twins might look like.Genes can do strange things. Partly because we think skin colour is more important than the other features

jamspoon:HotWingAgenda: People recognize that "roma" can be blonde. The trouble is when you see two adults who are black haired and swarthy skinned, with a little girl who has pale skin and platinum blonde hair. The logical assumption when the child doesn't look even slightly related to the adults is that they were either adopted or kidnapped.

What twins might look like.[www.hoax-slayer.com image 383x250]Genes can do strange things. Partly because we think skin colour is more important than the other features

It's less fantastic when you consider the back story of the photo you posted: The information in the email is true and the photographs are genuine. The photographs depict fair-skinned Remee and dark-skinned Kian who were born in April 2005. The fraternal twins were born to parents Kylie Hodgson and Remi Horder from Nottingham, England. Both Kylie and Remi are of mixed race, with black fathers and white mothers.

It's extremely rare for two people with dark hair, dark eyes, and dark skin to produce a child who is a completely unrelated phenotype. If I have a baby with a woman who is also Scots/Irish and the child grows up looking pure Chinese, people will have some serious questions for us when we're out and about. You see genes are actually fairly predictable. Science works, biatches.

gfid:Cajnik: gfid: Do we consider Italians or Spaniards to be a separate race? Maybe you do, but I don't.

OTOH, I saw an image in a news story of a red headed girl with very pale skin who looked more Irish than anything else. She was supposed to be one of Maria's siblings.

Where do you draw the line when defining race? Are Americans a separate race from English people? Wait, are Americans even a race? There are Americans from Asia, Africa, South and Central America. Are you saying they aren't really Americans?

I just have a huge problem with race as a defining characteristic. Scientifically we're all humans. There really isn't much that differentiates a white person from a black person. There's even less that differentiates a Roma from a French person - not biologically anyway.

[i45.tinypic.com image 336x254]

Is that supposed to be funny? I don't know if you've ever actually met anyone outside of your own :"race" before. I suspect you haven't which is probably why you think it's funny to post pictures like that.

Trust me, Stephen Colbert is a farking moran. "Roma" is not a race. It's an excuse to live like gypsies and rob people of everything they can. We have some in the US too. They travel around and try to steal everything they can.

I have yet to see anyone in this thread even try to justify abandoning a 7 month old child.

===================

You don't know what you are talking about. The DNA evidence PROVES that the majority of people who self identify as Roma have origins in northern India and not Europe.

Gyrfalcon:gfid: Do we consider Italians or Spaniards to be a separate race? Maybe you do, but I don't.

The Roma consider themselves a different race. All the things you cite are because they are a distinct ethnic group and they prefer to keep it that way.

After Hitler got through with the Roma genocide, there were barely enough true Roma people to keep the bloodlines going, and they like being culturally and ethnically distinct from everyone, even at the expense of being considered criminals. As to why they don't "just assimilate", well, I guess you could say the same thing of the Jews or the Kurds. Why don't they just assimilate like everyone else?

How have Jews not assimilated into countries that would let them? They retain their own religion, but Jews have always assimilated culturally into other countries in every way that doesn't violate their relgion. Where ever they are able to, they are involved in the broader community, involved in politics, involved in interfaith projects, involved in charities. The clothes they wear or the way Jews cook in Italy is different than the way Jews in America or Spain or Israel. Southern Jews developed different culinary traditions than the ones who settled in New York. They always learn how to speak the local language in addition to any others they can speak.

adamatari:The Greek case is a perfect example - they explained the circumstances, which happened to be true, and yet it's been made out like they were trafficking in children.

You mean the 4th story they told the police turned out to be true. The first three were (1) she's our biological kid, no realli (2) my wife had an affair with some blond dude (3) something else fishy.

I heard a sympathetic reporter who visited the family on the radio today. She said when she got to the house, they told her to wait outside. She saw a bunch of children streaming behind the house carrying things from a neighbor's. After a while, they let her in to see the "little girl's room" which was obviously the only bedroom available for all the kids, but had been made up to look like only hers and filled with toys and stuff.

So, you know, when you constantly deceive people even after they have you dead to rights, you might expect them not to believe anything you say.

The whole, 'I can't afford a child, here random lady, you take her,' thing reminds me of the tragic case of Sylvia Likens from the 60s. Sylvia and her sister were "farmed out" due to poverty, and the foster parent abused her, starved her, and orchestrated her own and the neighborhood children into torturing her to death.Only this Roma girl is alive and no one is saying she was tortured.By the way I think the vivid red hair we are seeing in these pictures of Roma children is the result of henna dye. Henna is a plant-based dye that is believed to have protective powers. It is also not nearly as stinky and gross as synthetic hair dye; it can also strengthen the hair follicle. Maybe they caregivers are not trying to conceal the children. Red isn't exactly camouflage, is it?There are a lot of assumptions flying around about these 'poor little blonde girls.' I would rather we talk about systematic disenfranchisement of the Roma, educational failings, and rural poverty. That conversation could actually help a lot more children.

HotWingAgenda:People recognize that "roma" can be blonde. The trouble is when you see two adults who are black haired and swarthy skinned, with a little girl who has pale skin and platinum blonde hair. The logical assumption when the child doesn't look even slightly related to the adults is that they were either adopted or kidnapped.

Both my parents were dark haired but I was blonde as can be until my teens when it darkened out. This is just an excuse for the European Right to get some Roma hate going.

Fissile:ambercat: Gyrfalcon: gfid: Do we consider Italians or Spaniards to be a separate race? Maybe you do, but I don't.

The Roma consider themselves a different race. All the things you cite are because they are a distinct ethnic group and they prefer to keep it that way.

After Hitler got through with the Roma genocide, there were barely enough true Roma people to keep the bloodlines going, and they like being culturally and ethnically distinct from everyone, even at the expense of being considered criminals. As to why they don't "just assimilate", well, I guess you could say the same thing of the Jews or the Kurds. Why don't they just assimilate like everyone else?

How have Jews not assimilated into countries that would let them? They retain their own religion, but Jews have always assimilated culturally into other countries in every way that doesn't violate their relgion. Where ever they are able to, they are involved in the broader community, involved in politics, involved in interfaith projects, involved in charities. The clothes they wear or the way Jews cook in Italy is different than the way Jews in America or Spain or Israel. Southern Jews developed different culinary traditions than the ones who settled in New York. They always learn how to speak the local language in addition to any others they can speak.

===================

I'm guessing you've never been to New York? Do you know what the Hasidim are all about?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiryas_Joel,_New_York

The Hasidim are a small percentage of the Jews in NYC. Most have assimilated quite nicely. And Kosher delis are the best, hands down.

Dextro:I think I was angered by about every 5th or 6th post in this thread. It seems as though many of you aren't capable of reading comprehension or thoughtful dialogue. Why must such willful idiocy exist?

Nevermind, my question clearly isn't capable of being answered intelligently by this crowd.

A lot of the hatred towards the roma might be pure racism, but not all.

The romas lifestyle place them outside society. They have 10 or more children who don't go to school, they live of welfare, begging and crime.Let's not be naive, if you live like this people are going to resent you.

The jews on the other hand have alway integrated into society economicly, and have only placed themselves outside by their religion and diet, except when the law forced them to.

ambercat:Gyrfalcon: gfid: Do we consider Italians or Spaniards to be a separate race? Maybe you do, but I don't.

The Roma consider themselves a different race. All the things you cite are because they are a distinct ethnic group and they prefer to keep it that way.

After Hitler got through with the Roma genocide, there were barely enough true Roma people to keep the bloodlines going, and they like being culturally and ethnically distinct from everyone, even at the expense of being considered criminals. As to why they don't "just assimilate", well, I guess you could say the same thing of the Jews or the Kurds. Why don't they just assimilate like everyone else?

How have Jews not assimilated into countries that would let them? They retain their own religion, but Jews have always assimilated culturally into other countries in every way that doesn't violate their relgion. Where ever they are able to, they are involved in the broader community, involved in politics, involved in interfaith projects, involved in charities. The clothes they wear or the way Jews cook in Italy is different than the way Jews in America or Spain or Israel. Southern Jews developed different culinary traditions than the ones who settled in New York. They always learn how to speak the local language in addition to any others they can speak.

===================

I'm guessing you've never been to New York? Do you know what the Hasidim are all about?

Feel_the_velvet:We were moving a friend out of an apartment. Had a truck on the street. A Chicago cop came over and asked us some questions - said they were having a problem with gypsies posing as moving companies and stealing peoples' shiat.

This was in 2001.

Gypsies were still stealing peoples' shiat in 2001!

They are still around today. Those folks that fix roofs or re-pave your driveway? Yep.

Oldiron_79:Its not just gypsies, the europeans say terribly racist things about eastern europeans and middleasterners.

Good thing the US and especially Fark is so enlightened that saying terrible things about people from certain places is never known.

Oh, wait, Fark has a Florida tag and there are probably thousands of posts asking for a Texas tag or an Arizona tag. Why? Because we're so enlightened we think anyone who lives in certain other places is a dumbass idiot and probably racist too.

I know I've been highly critical of the "Roma" in this thread, but I do not do so because of where they came from or where they live. I do so because the only people who call themselves "Roma" flout laws and refuse to join civilized society.

I've seen people on Fark mock the Duggars because they had 18 or 19 kids, but at least the Duggars can support them even if they do accept help from donations.

This "Roma" family has 11 kids and they just decided to leave one behind because they couldn't afford her. There was no legal adoption. There was obviously no expectation that they'd ever see their 7 month old child again.

When I saw her father interviewed, he wasn't saying how much he wanted to see his daughter again. He was defending himself. He was basically saying he would't be living in such a shiathole if he had actually sold his daughter.

Someone who actually cared about his children would be asking how he could get to see his daughter again.

Maggie_Luna:Now replace Roma with Jew and you have a lovely pro-Hitler slant going.

Jews aren't a different race either. Those who practice the Jewish faith do define themselves as a culture but they also seem pretty white to me. Sure, some of them may have slightly darker skin (like Italians or Spaniards or maybe Arabs) but their culture isn't defined by living in camps and being nomadic and popping out 11 children and leaving one behind because they just couldn't afford bus fare for their 7 month old child.

What about the Roma that have integrated into European society? Are you saying there aren't any? Why do some of them cling to the lifestyle of the people involved in this story?

The Roma that have settled down and gotten jobs and blended into European society don't call themselves Roma anymore. I live in the US. I don't consider myself European anymore even though that's where my ancestors came from.

So maybe the authorities got it wrong, but still I don't understand how one can have 11 children and just decide to leave one behind because you can't afford it. What about the other 10 children? How did they get bus or train tickets back to Bulgaria?

Jews may think of themselves as a different race, but they're really not. They're human just like the rest of us. They're Jewish because of their faith and I respect that. I'm not going to tell them what they should believe.

Roma? Well, that's not a religion. It seems to be more of a lifestyle and when that lifestyle extends to human trafficking I'm going to object. Sorry.

Okay, I'll take a step back before I say something that gets me banned. All they had to do was go through a legal adoption process and all of this could have been avoided, but the "Roma" seem to want to live outside of the law.

gfid:Gyrfalcon: gfid: bud jones: ah, the roma. the last group it's ok for the eurotrash to be all racist about....

What race are they? They look kind of white to me.

Roma. Or Sinti. They are an ethnically distinct people.

Okay, stay with me here. From the news I've been seeing they look like they mostly have darker skin - you know maybe like an Italian or a Spaniard might have.

Do we consider Italians or Spaniards to be a separate race? Maybe you do, but I don't.

OTOH, I saw an image in a news story of a red headed girl with very pale skin who looked more Irish than anything else. She was supposed to be one of Maria's siblings.

Where do you draw the line when defining race? Are Americans a separate race from English people? Wait, are Americans even a race? There are Americans from Asia, Africa, South and Central America. Are you saying they aren't really Americans?

I just have a huge problem with race as a defining characteristic. Scientifically we're all humans. There really isn't much that differentiates a white person from a black person. There's even less that differentiates a Roma from a French person - not biologically anyway.

This is a cultural thing. I bet there are thousands if not millions of Roma who have assimilated into Europe. It's those that refuse to do so and have 11 children and just decide they can't afford their 7 month old baby and leaves them behind after they get done picking olives that define them as Roma.

WTF were they thinking when they had a baby they couldn't afford? They had already had 10 others. It's not like they didn't know how sex worked. I couldn't really afford to take my cat to a hospital last week. You know what? She's my cat. I said fark the cost, I'm not going to let her die without giving her the best medical care she can get first. That was just for a cat. How the hell does anyone do that to a 7 month old human being?

So they just decided that their 7 month old baby was expendable?

Hey, let's l ...

Now replace Roma with Jew and you have a lovely pro-Hitler slant going.

Danger Avoid Death:KeelingLovesCornholes: Danger Avoid Death: Cog Spinner: This reminds me of a National Geographic show or some other reputable show (Not Inside Edition, for fark's sake) that studied some nomadic tribes in Mongolia or Siberia, I forget which as it has been at least 10 years ago when I saw it, that had a few blonde headed/blue eyed kids here and there when everyone else in those tribes had black hair and brown eyes. Turns out scientists guessed it was because of the Vikings who...well...had a part in that. Viking DNA: the gift that keeps on giving.

Which reminds me of this famous National Geographic cover photo from 1985. I might still have this issue in a box somewhere:

She was Pakistani or afghan, can remember precisely but it certainly wasn't anywhere near this story. You should see her now *shiver*

She was an Afghani refugee living in a refugee camp in Pakistan, where the picture was taken, during the Soviet invasion and occupation of Afghanistan. Her name is Sharbat Gula.

==================

"Afghani is not an ethnicity. Afghanistan is the name of the country. The majority of Afghans belong to the Pashtun tribal group. Sharbat Gula is a Pashtun. This is what she looks like now.

HotWingAgenda:People recognize that "roma" can be blonde. The trouble is when you see two adults who are black haired and swarthy skinned, with a little girl who has pale skin and platinum blonde hair. The logical assumption when the child doesn't look even slightly related to the adults is that they were either adopted or kidnapped.

It didn't help their case that she wasn't biologically related to them and they had no proof of where she came from or how they got her.

Fissile:Non-passport holding Muricans, which make up the majority of Muricans, have no understanding of the gypsy problem in Europe. All Americans know about gypsies is what they've seen in popular media. Americans believe the gypsies are a group of people who wear colorful costumes and love to sing and dance, but are otherwise harmless.

First off, the gypsies ARE not Europeans, and DNA studies prove it. The gypsies originated in northern India, and wandered into Turkey. The gypsies entered Europe through the Balkans during the Turkish invasions of Europe. The reasons why gypsies are so despised in southern and eastern Europe is because they are an every present reminder of the humiliations various Europeans were subjected to under the Turks. Keep in mind that the the last of the Turks weren't ejected from Europe until 1908., which as European history goes may as well be last week.

Most gypsies have no intention of acting like Europeans. Their culture was set long before they got to Europe. They live the way they do, because THEY LIKE IT THAT WAY. During the communist years, the reds attempted to force the gypsies into permanent housing and met with little success.

As for blond gypos, they are rare, but they exist. It's common for gypsy women to work as prostitutes, many of them pimped out by their own husbands or other male family members. In recent years gypsy prostitutes have figured out a new way to make money. Get pregnant by a white customer and hope for a fair skinned baby which they attempt to sell to childless European or American couples.

Why do you use the term "Murrican" and try to come off so high and mighty and assume we know nothing about Roma?

Maybe you should learn some more about Americans and stop using terms which you intend to be offensive.

You probably don't know this, but most Americans are of European descent, but we are a diverse nation and many of of us roots in Asia, Africa and South America as well.

Non-passport holding Muricans, which make up the majority of Muricans, have no understanding of the gypsy problem in Europe. All Americans know about gypsies is what they've seen in popular media. Americans believe the gypsies are a group of people who wear colorful costumes and love to sing and dance, but are otherwise harmless.

First off, the gypsies ARE not Europeans, and DNA studies prove it. The gypsies originated in northern India, and wandered into Turkey. The gypsies entered Europe through the Balkans during the Turkish invasions of Europe. The reasons why gypsies are so despised in southern and eastern Europe is because they are an every present reminder of the humiliations various Europeans were subjected to under the Turks. Keep in mind that the the last of the Turks weren't ejected from Europe until 1908., which as European history goes may as well be last week.

Most gypsies have no intention of acting like Europeans. Their culture was set long before they got to Europe. They live the way they do, because THEY LIKE IT THAT WAY. During the communist years, the reds attempted to force the gypsies into permanent housing and met with little success.

As for blond gypos, they are rare, but they exist. It's common for gypsy women to work as prostitutes, many of them pimped out by their own husbands or other male family members. In recent years gypsy prostitutes have figured out a new way to make money. Get pregnant by a white customer and hope for a fair skinned baby which they attempt to sell to childless European or American couples.

jamspoon:Genes can do strange things. Partly because we think skin colour is more important than the other features

I was looking at the picture of the girl and her parents, ignore the skin color and it's obvious the kid looks like her mother.

Cog Spinner:This reminds me of a National Geographic show or some other reputable show (Not Inside Edition, for fark's sake) that studied some nomadic tribes in Mongolia or Siberia, I forget which as it has been at least 10 years ago when I saw it, that had a few blonde headed/blue eyed kids here and there when everyone else in those tribes had black hair and brown eyes. Turns out scientists guessed it was because of the Vikings who...well...had a part in that. Viking DNA: the gift that keeps on giving.

True story, friend did some consulting in Kabul back when no one did consulting in Kabul. He's blond blue eyed. He grew his beard out before he went, but said with that no one on the street gave him a second look. Essentially that part of the world is part of the old silk road, people have been migrating back and forth through there for thousands of years. You see every type of hair color and eyes.

Danger Avoid Death:Cog Spinner: This reminds me of a National Geographic show or some other reputable show (Not Inside Edition, for fark's sake) that studied some nomadic tribes in Mongolia or Siberia, I forget which as it has been at least 10 years ago when I saw it, that had a few blonde headed/blue eyed kids here and there when everyone else in those tribes had black hair and brown eyes. Turns out scientists guessed it was because of the Vikings who...well...had a part in that. Viking DNA: the gift that keeps on giving.

Which reminds me of this famous National Geographic cover photo from 1985. I might still have this issue in a box somewhere:

She was Pakistani or afghan, can remember precisely but it certainly wasn't anywhere near this story. You should see her now *shiver*

Capturing increasing national frustration with the Roma, a prominent story in the April issue of the popular magazine Paris Match showed eight pages of photographs of young Roma pickpockets brazenly targeting tourists at bank machines, Metro stations and museums like the Louvre.

But Roma advocates counter that if there is crime among some Roma, it is the byproduct of severe economic deprivation and social exclusion that allowed a minority of unscrupulous ringleaders to exploit poor people desperately eking out an existence on society's fringes.

12349876:gfid: And in the case from Greece, DNA proved it wasn't their biological daughter and there doesn't seem to be any documentation to back up their story of just helping out a young mother who couldn't care for her newborn daughter.

They found the mother of that kid in Bulgaria, also Roma. That mother in Bulglaria made the same claim, but authorities are suspecting there was a bit of a financial transaction too,

The girl was seven months old when they had to return to Bulgaria, and she said she could not afford to take the child with her.

Are you kidding me? How can you just decide that you can't afford a child that you brought into this world? I know everyone isn't as well off as me, but it does sound like a horrible choice to make and even if she couldn't afford to travel with her baby then, why didn't she try to get her back?

She's not saying she gave her child up for adoption. She's not saying she left her under the care of another family until she could get back on her feet. She's saying her daughter was too much of a financial strain to deal with.

WTF? She had TEN siblings? Seriously, WTF is wrong with these people. Do they not know about birth control? It's no wonder they just leave their kids where they drop under the care of people they hardly know.

I really do suspect there was a financial arrangement. "If she'd been sold, we'd have a much bigger house on 2 floors, not like this" said some guy who is presumably the father.

The part about 10 siblings and the quote from her presumed father is what I just saw on Sky News on TV, so no link, sorry.

And like I said before, what makes "Roma" people so special? They could easily integrate into European society, but instead they just cling to their caravans and pop out a dozen children and expect the government to care for them.

And then they give (perhaps sell, but no proof of that yet) their children away to other families?

I know it sounds sort of racist to say this although I'm not sure what "race" Roma people are, but it's no wonder why they're so hated.

And let's stop referring to them as 'people'. That's an insult to the rest of humanity.

Oh right, it's not an international news thread until the elegant pinnacle of civilized thought, LemSkroob, has shown up to call some ethnic group "savages" and such. Fark off, dude, your shiat is tired.

jamspoon:HotWingAgenda: People recognize that "roma" can be blonde. The trouble is when you see two adults who are black haired and swarthy skinned, with a little girl who has pale skin and platinum blonde hair. The logical assumption when the child doesn't look even slightly related to the adults is that they were either adopted or kidnapped.

What twins might look like.[www.hoax-slayer.com image 383x250]Genes can do strange things. Partly because we think skin colour is more important than the other features

One of my friends father is white and his mother is Filipino. Now he is blond haired, has blue eyes and white skin, but his two brothers and his sister look like your typical Filipino as far as skin, eye and hair color go. The only way that you can tell that he is related to all of them, at least his brothers, is that him and his brothers are the spitting image of their father in the face.

HotWingAgenda:It's extremely rare for two people with dark hair, dark eyes, and dark skin to produce a child who is a completely unrelated phenotype

Actually it's not. Virtually all the babies in my family are born with blonde hair and blue eyes, and sometimes it never goes away. But most of the time we end up giant hairy swarthy brutes with brown/auburn hair and green or brown eyes. And sometimes you won't know until you turn 10 years or more. My son in law is positively ape-like, and my one year old grandson is still blonde and blue eyed.

This reminds me of a National Geographic show or some other reputable show (Not Inside Edition, for fark's sake) that studied some nomadic tribes in Mongolia or Siberia, I forget which as it has been at least 10 years ago when I saw it, that had a few blonde headed/blue eyed kids here and there when everyone else in those tribes had black hair and brown eyes. Turns out scientists guessed it was because of the Vikings who...well...had a part in that. Viking DNA: the gift that keeps on giving.