How the grip rests in your hand

Even though I have seen the terms “pistol grip” and “hammer grip” used to describe how the racquet rests in your hand, I’ve been told that not everyone is on the same page with them. I just wanted to host a little talk about the two most popular ways to hold the tennis racquet, as seen below.

First of all, if “pistol” and “hammer” are not official terms for the two most common ways the racquet is held in the hand, then what are? I definitely see where pistol and hammer came from, the only difference really is just the index finger. My knuckles are lined up the same exact way for both grips, I hold the same part of the racquet, the only difference is the index finger.

I naturally hit a “pistol” grip SW forehand, but I recently have been trying to change where I hold the grip - now I'm holding it (at least trying to) further down the racquet so that the pinky is flush or close to flush with the base of the butt cap. I have no problem using the pistol grip at this hand position, but this week I gave the hammer grip a try. It is more than easy to feel the difference. At first, it felt like my pointer finger had been amputated, so the balance of the racquet instantly changed a lot and that effected my timing. I do think that I got used to it a bit after a while, and since I am focusing on increasing the utilization of the SSC in my stroke, I think I felt an increased "looseness" in my wrist on forehands. I imagine it's because the area of how much my hand extends throughout the grip (because of the pointer finger) was decreased (and positioned lower on the grip) which decreased the wrist's and/or hand's ability to get in the way, therefore increasing the angle of how far the racquet would naturally bend back. Has anyone experienced this?

I saw that toly was creating figures of how the pistol grip uses the spread out index finger as leverage, can someone please go into detail on that? How it works, the advantages/disadvantages, etc.

Thanks Toly. I have seen those posts and what I was referring to above were your figures with Roddick (I believe) serving and using a pistol grip. Do you have any different information when it comes to that grip and forehands, or are the physics, characteristics, and outcomes the same? I am mainly trying to find out how the extended index figure changes the stroke.

Thanks Toly. I have seen those posts and what I was referring to above were your figures with Roddick (I believe) serving and using a pistol grip. Do you have any different information when it comes to that grip and forehands, or are the physics, characteristics, and outcomes the same? I am mainly trying to find out how the extended index figure changes the stroke.

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There is big difference between Taylor hammer grip and your grip because he keeps his finger knuckles parallel to handle’s axis. That’s why a wrist ulnar deviation cannot reduce pronation beta angle (β) less than 30°.

Let’s talk about hard topspin FH with semiwestern/western grip. Pros apply actively pronation and wrist ulnar deviation. If ulnar deviation reaches the minimum of β and this angle is zero, due to pronation they could have very high probability to frame the ball. Thus, they should keep this angle away from zero. Taylor hammer grip can provide that. It seems that Nadal uses this kind of grip and his hard TS FH is very reliable.

Toly, what is this hummer grip you keep talking about? It sounds kinda dirty/risque.

To to the OP: the differences that you show between the 2 grips is subtle. Most others would have a more significant difference. For most conventional grips, the racket handle would lie diagonally across the palm. With the fingers bunched together, players have the racket handle much closer to perpendicular to the arm and fingers. I am reluctant to refer to this as a hammer grip because way too many sources outside of TT refer to a conventional continental grip (diagonal orientation) as a hammer (or chopper) grip. How about if we refer to the perpendicular orientation as a baseball bat grip or something else?

There is big difference between Taylor hummer grip and your grip because he keeps his finger knuckles parallel to handle’s axis. That’s why a wrist ulnar deviation cannot reduce pronation beta angle (β) less than 30°.

Let’s talk about hard topspin FH with semiwestern/western grip. Pros apply actively pronation and wrist ulnar deviation. If ulnar deviation reaches the minimum of β and this angle is zero, due to pronation they could have very high probability to frame the ball. Thus, they should keep this angle away from zero. Taylor hummer grip can provide that. It seems that Nadal uses this kind of grip and his hard TS FH is very reliable.

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I see what you're saying with Taylor Dent's serve and the angle at contact that his grip forces him to have (btw, do you mean hummer or hammer?). But does he use the same grip positioning for his forehand (referring to his knuckles being all on the same bevel, not the conti grip)? And you are implying that Nadal DOES do this for his forehand, interesting. When I hold the grip with all my knuckles on the 4th bevel (SW fh), I find my thumb is in an awkward position resting between/on top of my index finger and middle finger. Also, the racquet handle does not fit as comfortably and/or as snug between my thumb and index finger. I am trying to find large size images of Nadal's forehand to see for myself, if you come across any that show it please let me know. You said that a beta angle of 0 degree should be avoided, and you are referring specifically to a forehand at contact? In your statement, is 0 degrees when the long axis of the racquet and player's arm are parallel to the ground? What other pros do you see using this grip positioning?

Even though I have seen the terms “pistol grip” and “hammer grip” used to describe how the racquet rests in your hand, I’ve been told that not everyone is on the same page with them. I just wanted to host a little talk about the two most popular ways to hold the tennis racquet, as seen below.

First of all, if “pistol” and “hammer” are not official terms for the two most common ways the racquet is held in the hand, then what are? I definitely see where pistol and hammer came from, the only difference really is just the index finger. My knuckles are lined up the same exact way for both grips, I hold the same part of the racquet, the only difference is the index finger.

I naturally hit a “pistol” grip SW forehand, but I recently have been trying to change where I hold the grip - now I'm holding it (at least trying to) further down the racquet so that the pinky is flush or close to flush with the base of the butt cap. I have no problem using the pistol grip at this hand position, but this week I gave the hammer grip a try. It is more than easy to feel the difference. At first, it felt like my pointer finger had been amputated, so the balance of the racquet instantly changed a lot and that effected my timing. I do think that I got used to it a bit after a while, and since I am focusing on increasing the utilization of the SSC in my stroke, I think I felt an increased "looseness" in my wrist on forehands. I imagine it's because the area of how much my hand extends throughout the grip (because of the pointer finger) was decreased (and positioned lower on the grip) which decreased the wrist's and/or hand's ability to get in the way, therefore increasing the angle of how far the racquet would naturally bend back. Has anyone experienced this?

I saw that toly was creating figures of how the pistol grip uses the spread out index finger as leverage, can someone please go into detail on that? How it works, the advantages/disadvantages, etc.

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As long as your not holding a continental on the forehand grip like many old school players and your hand feels like it's 'home' on the racquet - you're good! Sometimes coaches don't allow players to do what comes natural to them...Eastern.semi-western...and with little success they wind up giving up. And ya can't have that!

To to the OP: the differences that you show between the 2 grips is subtle. Most others would have a more significant difference. For most conventional grips, the racket handle would lie diagonally across the palm. With the fingers bunched together, players have the racket handle much closer to perpendicular to the arm and fingers. I am reluctant to refer to this as a hammer grip because way too many sources outside of TT refer to a conventional continental grip (diagonal orientation) as a hammer (or chopper) grip. How about if we refer to the perpendicular orientation as a baseball bat grip or something else?

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While I would still like Toly to answer, it feels much more natural for me to position my knuckles all on the same bevel if I imagine the handle is that of a baseball bat . I never have thought to hold a racquet like this, and this is common/how people (and pros) normally hold the racquet when their fingers are all bunched together? Then is the way I'm holding the racquet in the pictures (with bunched fingers + handle diagonal across the palm) like a grip hybrid...? I'm assuming it's uncommon if you're saying "With the fingers bunched together, players have the racket handle much closer to perpendicular to the arm and fingers."

As long as your not holding a continental on the forehand grip like many old school players and your hand feels like it's 'home' on the racquet - you're good! Sometimes coaches don't allow players to do what comes natural to them...Eastern.semi-western...and with little success they wind up giving up. And ya can't have that!

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True. I'm just trying to see/feel the differences, but during match play I will more than likely keep my index finger extended.

While I would still like Toly to answer, it feels much more natural for me to position my knuckles all on the same bevel if I imagine the handle is that of a baseball bat . I never have thought to hold a racquet like this, and this is common/how people (and pros) normally hold the racquet when their fingers are all bunched together? Then is the way I'm holding the racquet in the pictures (with bunched fingers + handle diagonal across the palm) like a grip hybrid...? I'm assuming it's uncommon if you're saying "With the fingers bunched together, players have the racket handle much closer to perpendicular to the arm and fingers."

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I think the finger, per se, doesn't really matter. It's more of a convenient indicator of handle orientation.

^^^ Nice pic.

Fwiw, I use the 1st on serve, forehand, and fh volley/slice. I use the 2nd for the 1hbh and bh volley/slice.

I would say that the 1st one if preferable for most strokes. Why do you think the 2nd one is?

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Scheepers slice serve.

It seems she employs pistol grip. Around contact, image 11, her arm and longitudinal racquet axis form straight line. As a result, arm pronation contributes nothing to RHS. I believe this is very bad technique.

This is flat serve.

Wrist ulnar deviation is locked, so the player doesn’t produce side spin.

There is question. How is he able to lock ulnar deviation? Answer – He utilizes hammer grip. His arm and racquet cannot be in straight line position and he can use arm pronation to maximize RHS.

IMO the best way to control wrist ulnar deviation is - we have to use our “wrist ulnar deviation muscles” actively to control motion dependent torque which is created by elbow extension. In case of flat serve we can use hammer grip, or hit with bent elbow, or both!!!???

IMO the best way to control wrist ulnar deviation is - we have to use our “wrist ulnar deviation muscles” actively to control motion dependent torque which is created by elbow extension.

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So for the serve you're saying both grips can have/lock wrist ulnar deviation, but the hammer grip does it (more?) naturally? Also, the guy serving has his knuckles lined up on one bevel but his index finger is extended...and you still consider this the hammer grip...so the names of the grips differentiate between whether the knuckles are on one bevel or not, not if the index finger is extended or not?

Here (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=5309329&postcount=124) i was confused about a few things - you were talking about the index finger as a fulcrum in a first class lever model despite saying that you cannot fully use a first class lever model since there is no gravity involved. So is figure 1 or 2 a more realistic model of the serve? Which one (more realistic or not) would produce an optimum serve? Can any of that information (on the effects of the extended index finger) be applied to a forehand (or 1H or 2H backhand for that matter)? You also said the index finger is generally extended because it increases torque. So in your opinion, is the hammer grip with an extended index finger the best service grip for serves (compared to the index finger not extended and/or using the continental grip)?

While I am now finding the input on the serve more interesting, I am mainly looking for how those figures can apply to forehands. Specifically, the differences of having an extended index finger and not.Plus, I (as well as SystemicAnomaly) am confused to why you would suggest the hammer grip is optimal for SW forehands (when you said "second one is better" in post 11, were you referring to the grip or the picture of the girl and the hummer? haha). If you meant the grip, can you elaborate why, since when you said "If ulnar deviation reaches the minimum of β and this angle is zero, due to pronation they could have very high probability to frame the ball. Thus, they should keep this angle away from zero," is that 0 degrees with the long axis of the racquet being horizontal or vertical? Were you still talking about the serve when you said this? I ask because if you were talking about the fh and meant vertical, I have never seen that so I don't think it's relevant, but if you meant horizontal, 9 out of 10 pics of pro forehands show they have the racquet horizontal at contact (and the other one is just off by a little bit).

So for the serve you're saying both grips can have/lock wrist ulnar deviation, but the hammer grip does it (more?) naturally? Also, the guy serving has his knuckles lined up on one bevel but his index finger is extended...and you still consider this the hammer grip...so the names of the grips differentiate between whether the knuckles are on one bevel or not, not if the index finger is extended or not?

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I’m russian & english is my 3rd language, so I have big problem with tennis terminology. Nevertheless, I think tennis slang has too much freedom for misinterpretation.
IMO if axis of racquet’s handle is perpendicular to the longitudinal axis of hand, I identify it as hammer grip.
If angle between these axes is around 45°, it is pistol grip.

Here (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=5309329&postcount=124) i was confused about a few things - you were talking about the index finger as a fulcrum in a first class lever model despite saying that you cannot fully use a first class lever model since there is no gravity involved. So is figure 1 or 2 a more realistic model of the serve? Which one (more realistic or not) would produce an optimum serve?

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From mechanics stand point it doesn’t matter, but you are not simple machine, so, pay more attention to figure 1 and maximize force applied to index finger. You also can spread this finger (or all fingers) to increase torque. These can amplify RHS created by arm pronation if you know how to control beta angle.
Question about gravity is not important.

I’m russian & english is my 3rd language, so I have big problem with tennis terminology. Nevertheless, I think tennis slang has too much freedom for misinterpretation.
IMO if axis of racquet’s handle is perpendicular to the longitudinal axis of hand, I identify it as hammer grip.
If angle between these axes is around 45°, it is pistol grip.

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No prob, I get what you're saying. It has nothing to do with the index finger, it's how the grip rests in your hand (just like from the title haha). I initially thought "pistol" was referring to the extended index finger, like it was on the trigger...

From mechanics stand point it doesn’t matter, but you are not simple machine, so, pay more attention to figure 1 and maximize force applied to index finger. You also can spread this finger (or all fingers) to increase torque. These can amplify RHS created by arm pronation if you know how to control beta angle.
Question about gravity is not important.

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I think I get what spreading out the finger(s) will do - it brings the fulcrum point closer to the middle of the racquet, which makes the racquet ever so slightly easier to swing. A radical example would be holding the racquet (with the same grip) at the butt and at the throat, it's easier to maneuver the racquet when holding it at the throat. In the same way, you are also able to pronate/supinate your arm around faster when holding the racquet at the throat. So while the fulcrum point will obviously not be at the throat when the index finger is extended, you're saying that every mm counts. How do I maximize force applied to the index finger, though?

Is the same beta angle that is optimal for the serve optimal for the fh? Is that why you recommend the hammer grip for both? I need to keep looking for fh grip pictures, especially of Nadal

While I am now finding the input on the serve more interesting, I am mainly looking for how those figures can apply to forehands.

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Let’s talk about straight arm FH with semiwestern/western grip and serve with continental grip. What are the major differences between them?
Serve:
1. The arm pronation creates ball’s speed. We can get maximum speed if beta angle is 90°, but there will be no ball’s spin.
2. The wrist ulnar deviation produces spin. We can create max spin if ulnar deviation has max angular range – from 90° to 0°. So, β should be 0° with pistol grip, but arm pronation will contribute nothing to ball’s speed.
Forehand:
3. The wrist ulnar deviation creates ball’s speed. If β = 0° there is max speed, but a little spin.
4. The arm pronation produces spin with max efficiency when β = 90° and locked wrist. So the wrist ulnar deviation will contribute nothing to ball’s speed.
Tennis strokes are always compromise between speed and spin.

"If ulnar deviation reaches the minimum of β and this angle is zero, due to pronation they could have very high probability to frame the ball. Thus, they should keep this angle away from zero,".

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Let’s compare Verdasco flat FH with Fish WW FH.

Verdasco uses wrist ulnar deviation extremely hard and gets max ball’s speed. The beta is near to zero. If he pronates, the racquet long axis draws a cone with sharp angle beta at vertex. Because beta is very small it would be very difficult to catch the ball. The efficiency of spin production would be almost zero. That’s why Verdasco, around contact, shouldn’t employ arm pronation to minimize framing.

Fish practically doesn’t use wrist ulnar deviation. Beta angle is near to 90°. The racquet long axis draws the disk and he can easily catch the ball. The efficiency of spin creation is max, but he loses a lot of ball’s speed.

No prob, I get what you're saying. It has nothing to do with the index finger, it's how the grip rests in your hand (just like from the title haha). I initially thought "pistol" was referring to the extended index finger, like it was on the trigger...

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I think that is the origin of the term "pistol grip."

However, this doesn't mean the finger is playing an active role. For many players the finger is just getting out of the way of the handle.

I think I get what spreading out the finger(s) will do - it brings the fulcrum point closer to the middle of the racquet, which makes the racquet ever so slightly easier to swing.

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It depends on the stroke.

Federer uses a pistol grip on his forehand, but I don't think he's using it to effectively "choke up" on the racket. There have been several analysts who have said that Fed basically holds the racket with his bottom two fingers. This makes a lot of sense given his stroke style.

On the other hand, I suspect a pistol grip on the fh volley does play a role supporting the racket for many players.

Toly you posted a picture of verdasco coming over a high short sitter and driving it down into the court for a winner, and fish driving a much lower waist height ball. They are two different shots. What is your point? Both players appear to be choking up on their grip a little? but not everyone does that. Players such as Federer or Borg are known for holding their racket a little lower than a Fish or Verdasco that choke up. But that is more personal preference.

I'm looking at your picture but I'm not seeing what you're talking about I guess. I just see 2 different shots. A high sitter, and a lower deeper waste height rally ball. If I was in Verdasco's position, I would come over that ball more. In Fish's position, I might drive the ball a little more. I certainly would not be in position to hit as an aggressive shot. Fish is capable of hitting putaways off of high sitters just like verdasco and everyone else on the pro tour.

Toly you posted a picture of verdasco coming over a high short sitter and driving it down into the court for a winner, and fish driving a much lower waist height ball. They are two different shots. What is your point? Both players appear to be choking up on their grip a little? but not everyone does that. Players such as Federer or Borg are known for holding their racket a little lower than a Fish or Verdasco that choke up. But that is more personal preference.

I'm looking at your picture but I'm not seeing what you're talking about I guess. I just see 2 different shots. A high sitter, and a lower deeper waste height rally ball. If I was in Verdasco's position, I would come over that ball more. In Fish's position, I might drive the ball a little more. I certainly would not be in position to hit as an aggressive shot. Fish is capable of hitting putaways off of high sitters just like verdasco and everyone else on the pro tour.

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Yes, this is exactly my point. FHs are absolutely different, that’s why players use absolutely different techniques.
In case of Verdasco flat FH it would be better to use pistol grip, but in case of Fish WW FH I prefer hammer grip.

I think I get what spreading out the finger(s) will do - it brings the fulcrum point closer to the middle of the racquet, which makes the racquet ever so slightly easier to swing. A radical example would be holding the racquet (with the same grip) at the butt and at the throat, it's easier to maneuver the racquet when holding it at the throat. In the same way, you are also able to pronate/supinate your arm around faster when holding the racquet at the throat. So while the fulcrum point will obviously not be at the throat when the index finger is extended, you're saying that every mm counts. How do I maximize force applied to the index finger, though?

Is the same beta angle that is optimal for the serve optimal for the fh? Is that why you recommend the hammer grip for both? I need to keep looking for fh grip pictures, especially of Nadal

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This is really very clear and understandable explanation, thanks.
About max force - unfortunately I know nothing about muscles. I think just pay a little bit more attention to index finger actions.

About max force - unfortunately I know nothing about muscles. I think just pay a little bit more attention to index finger actions.

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I was just asking about max force since you said "pay more attention to figure 1 and maximize force applied to index finger."

I think I get what you're saying about the beta angle as long as I understand where the angle originates. Based off what you're saying, I'm seeing that if you extend your arm straight out and hold a racquet, a beta angle of zero degrees means you are holding the long axis of the racquet so that it's continuing up/out perfectly in line with the arm. This requires wrist ulnar deviation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9F9HlSy27I but holding the position when the sound is triggered). Then the more the long axis of the racquet becomes perpendicular with your arm, the more the beta angle increases.

Now, these observations are coming from within a small apartment with a low ceiling at 3:30 in the morning, so there's a good chance I will note some differences when I actually serve tomorrow and try all the following: I am finding that when using a pistol grip so that the 1st knuckle and heel pad are on the 2nd bevel (my usual position and grip), my beta angle can range anywhere between 0 and 90, but between 45 and 90 degrees (closer to 90 degrees) the motion starts to feel less stable, and I imagine it would only get worse during actual contact (this may be because I don't make contact with more than 45 degrees so this would feel less stable/unnatural anyway). Using a hammer grip so that all the knuckles are on the 2nd bevel, I am finding it hard to see much possibility of hitting a flat serve. This grip seems to really close the racquet face, so if the grip is actually usable, I imagine it could produce killer spin. I'm looking at the Dent pictures and debating if his knuckles are down the 2nd, 2.5, or even 3rd bevel. If it's the 2nd and he hits flat, it's something that my current environment won't let me imagine.

So I am able to see and feel the grip and pronation differences (depending on the beta angle) for the serve you describe in post #25, as well as imagine how different the two serves will actually be. Then for the fh, in the picture I see that Verdasco is using wrist ulnar deviation to get a beta angle near zero and that pronating from this position will just turn the racquet face from facing forward to facing down, no WW motion ex. like you're turning a screwdriver. Pronation will essentially produce no brushing up on the ball from strictly this position. Now with Fish, I was having a hard time grasping everything at first, and it's because I don't lock the wrist on my fh, his arm is supinated in the picture (not wrist ulnar deviated, they look similar), and I have a not-so-drastic WW follow through (more around the left shoulder than around the left elbow). But with the wrist locked back (extending and making a 90 angle with the forearm) and contact way way out in front (because of his straight arm fh, hammer grip, and western grip), pronation will make WW motion ex. you're waving hi to someone.

With all that said, I can put together that the pistol grip has less WW-like pronation/follow through and the hammer has more WW-like pronation/follow through because the hammer has a greater natural beta angle (just like the serve, and just you said toly). Also, when beta is closer to 0, gravity forces wrist ulnar devation, but when it's closer to 90, it forces supination (which is why it was said that the hammer grip opens up the racquet more). Now, I do see a flaw with at least Fish's fh - if he NEEDS to lock his wrist back through the entire take back to contact, he gets no SSC...

Anyway, back to my original topic of question - the extended index finger. Unfortunately, I can not extended it much more than a hair away from my middle finger while using the hammer grip, so it doesn't look like I can fully utilize an increase of torque with an increase of WW-like pronation. I guess I will have to experiment and see which benefit is better for my game. Thanks toly for giving the thumbs up to my interpretation and example of the benefits of having an extended index finger

BTW, I will try to make a video of at least the forehand motions to see if I'm doing them correctly. I will probably do the serves as well

I'm looking at the Dent pictures and debating if his knuckles are down the 2nd, 2.5, or even 3rd bevel.

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Positioning knuckles on particular bevels to define type of grips is nonsense. Everybody has different hand size and different handle diameter. If you have huge/long hands, as Taylor, your knuckles inevitably move down to next bevel(s).

I have been working on grips lately. What I found is if on my slice, volley, serve and 2 hander (all conti), I go with a hammer grip, the racquet face is much more consistent. In fact, what I do is stay in a backhand grip during a rally, even though my forehand is my weapon. So both hands on the racquet - bottom in a conti hammer grip and top in an eastern, leaning towards semiwestern. This is the grip I am in between shots.

The only trick to to be able to switch to the semi for the forehand, but it's not that bad.

Damn, I changed from hammer to pistol (inspired by Federer I have to admit) some years ago, on both fh and bh. And I have been very pleased with the results for my fh, the most important/best change I ever made. But now I can see the idea in keeping hammer for the bh. It seems to give a more uniform angle to the racket head through the swing. Damn, back to the drawing board.

Edit: After trying, I do not need to go of the pistol grip in the bh. But I discovered that I need to let the thumb rest on the second finger. I have been experimenting with "pistolizing" the thumb (stretching it a bit along the bevels), but that is NOT a good idea, it makes the racket head angle inconsistant through the bh swing (for me anyway).

Yeah, but since I use two hands between each hit, it's an easy gripchange to 1hbh topspin backhands (Ebackhand), or slice (conti with a twist towards eForehand). I just gotta decide before the ball is hit.
It's heck having sooo many different grips. 3 just for serving.

I have been trying a whole lot of different grips lately, and even though I'm going to wait to discuss stuff after I get some better hitting sessions in (I need live people, not walls haha), I will say this - with the hammer grip, I can actually hit a Western forehand. I physically could not do it with my pistol grip, I don't know why. Is this common?

Also, relating to the Western grip and the picture of Fish above and my comment from before - if Fish needs to lock his wrist back like that, doesn't that eliminate any potential of utilizing the SSC? So is that a picture of the wrist locked, or is it a snapshot of sometime during the point in the SSC where the wrist is being snapped/pulled forward? I will have to slow-mo some video to see what he consistently does

"OK, 1 sec here. I'm seeing Fish with a pistol grip for the most part, not a hammer grip. So with that said, plus the fact that I'm seeing his hand not far under the handle on his forehand (I can't see where his knuckles are exactly, but they look between E and SW, not W), I can't imagine that any characteristics of his grip(s) are causing that high beta angle. If that is true, I can't see how he's not locking his wrist into the 90 degree position."

I WOULD have said that if I didn't look at some Federer forehands right after (Fish using a pistol grip and not a western grip are true, though). There are plenty out there that show the same beta angle as Fish's. Same with Verdasco. This leaves me to believe that it's (at least) a result of hitting a straight arm fh way out in front of the body while utilizing the SSC, but that it is situational based on how well in position you are and/or shot selection (toly's picture of Verdasco). Anyone else have an explanation as to why?

Even I, the greatest tennis player around (if only), have the ability to hit with that Fish position (on a good day )

That was from when Cheetah had me make a few adjustments to my strokes (video at the top of http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=7188988&postcount=51), and that shot in particular stood out from the rest, it just felt awesome. At the time, I was using a SW grip, pistol grip, and straight arm. You can see that at contact I have a very high beta angle, but believe me that shot had plenty of pace, I'd even say more pace than spin, so I'm not 100% sold on the 0 degree beta angle = max speed. I did not lock my wrist back, so this just goes with what I was saying above about Fed and Verdasco (and Fish), the SSC, and the beta angle being situational. On ground strokes, it's not as easy to control your beta angle as it is for the serve, where it should pretty much be totally under your control.

What does everyone think about what I said on the other page?
"when beta is closer to 0, gravity forces wrist ulnar devation, but when it's closer to 90, it forces supination (which is why it was said that the hammer grip opens up the racquet more)."

Or this. "Unfortunately, I can not extended it much more than a hair away from my middle finger while using the hammer grip, so it doesn't look like I can fully utilize an increase of torque with an increase of WW-like pronation." Does anyone hit with an extended index finger on a hammer grip?

What does everyone think about what I said on the other page?
"when beta is closer to 0, gravity forces wrist ulnar devation, but when it's closer to 90, it forces supination (which is why it was said that the hammer grip opens up the racquet more)."

Or this. "Unfortunately, I can not extended it much more than a hair away from my middle finger while using the hammer grip, so it doesn't look like I can fully utilize an increase of torque with an increase of WW-like pronation." Does anyone hit with an extended index finger on a hammer grip?

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Can someone comment on the stuff above?

I've been looking at this thread, and even though my main question has been pretty much answered (about the effects of an extended index finger on the fh), I feel like something is incomplete since we went down like 3 different topic paths haha. Like I said, the index finger path is pretty much solved, I'm not to worried about the serve path until I take the time to try everything out (I will say this, though - to me, hitting with my fingers bunched together but in a pistol grip feels just as good as when the index finger is extended on the pistol grip, I wonder why that is. I'm hoping for some good video weather soon!), but it's the beta angle topic that's stuck in my mind now. More specifically, the implication (or what I interpret to be an implication) that beta angle is predominantly to fully dependent on using the pistol or hammer grip. I'm just not seeing this as true. I do believe that the higher the beta angle between the forearm and the racquet, the more spin can be produced. But I think a high beta angle can be achieved by either grip.

Now, that's not saying that it's just as easy for both grip positions. Is it easier for one grip (pistol or hammer) more than the other to naturally get this high beta angle when using the SSC? Or maybe the key for either grip to achieve a high beta angle to make contact far out in front of the body? So unless there is a clear answer saying it's easier for one grip more than the other, I would lean toward it being making contact far out in front of the body, just like my modified tennis coach said way back when haha. I can't say it for sure right now bc im seeing a noticeable difference between how "far out" contact is made between straight arm and double bend forehands. In general, DB seem to be closer to the body, which makes sense since bending the elbow shortens the swinging radius and limits how far out they can actually swing. Yet, DB forearms can still get a plenty high beta angle. So maybe it's making contact out in front as far as your stroke technique will allow?

I think that's all I want to say tonight before I lose track of the main point haha

Positioning knuckles on particular bevels to define type of grips is nonsense. Everybody has different hand size and different handle diameter. If you have huge/long hands, as Taylor, your knuckles inevitably move down to next bevel(s).