Sunday, April 8, 2007

MOP Comments (Page 5)

I am encouraged by most of the discussion that has occurred so far amongst the various blogs focusing on the Mosaic Of Pain and specifically this comments section. I know at times that it goes off on tangents and even sounds bitter and unkind but hope and pray that we are moving forward. I have had moments, several, where I wondered whether I was doing the right thing by allowing some of the comments and is this discussion even helpful. This process has been very difficult for those of us on this side of the issue and my guess it has been difficult for some on the other side of the issue. Sometimes it hurts to get better, to make things right.

I continue forward knowing that the website has provided us with some meaningful insights and I hope that continues. I also continue forward knowing that many have been hurt, some are being hurt and if nothing is done many will be hurt in the future. My hope is this pain would stop.

In the end we all know that truth prevails. Let's keep this in mind as we comment.

Administrative Note: Pease use a screen name/real name. This will help allow the discussion to flow and make more sense. Thanks!

117 comments:

Anonymous
said...

Got me thinking said...

After reading the last couple of days comments it got me thinking. I have worked with and in several non-profit organizations and typically what I have seen is that non-profit and for-profit organizations can work together. This is a very common practice. An example:

Income:McDonalds Corp makes hamburgers and sells franchise as it’s main source of income. Ronald McDonald Houses Organization is a non-profit for families with seriously ill children with it’s main income from donations via McDonalds Corp.

Benefits:McDonalds Corp. benefits on many levels with this relationship including letting its customers, vendors and employees know that it (McDonalds Corp.) cares about children by sponsoring Ronald McDonald Houses Organization. Profits rise considering people appreciate business that care society and not just for profits. Ronald McDonald Houses Organization benefits because it is being funded by a for-profit entity and does not have to depend on selling a products or service for it’s main source of income.

Dependency:McDonalds Corp. is dependant on the sales of its products/sevices and is not dependant on it’s charities. Ronald McDonald Houses Organization however is dependant on it’s corp. sponsors including McDonalds Corp.

Left over income:Both McDonalds Corp and Ronald McDonald Houses Organization bring in income. At various times throughout the year McDonalds reports it’s income and distributes it’s earnings (profits) amongst it’s shareholders. Ronald McDonald Houses also reports it’s income BUT uses it towards programs or must give it back to it’s donors. Ronald McDonald Houses accountants are not allowed to divide the left over income to its staff or board members due to it’s non-profit status.

Mosaic and McDonalds are obviously different but to help I have used this as an example to help you understand where I derive my questions.

Please let me know via this comment board if you believe any or all of these questions are unfair to ask of this organization. I believe them to be fair and may help bring some light to this issue to squash this or alert the membership that there is in fact a problem.

Some Questions about how Mosaic works with its for-profit companies and non-profit organizations:

1. What are the names of any for-profit and non-profit companies affiliated with Mosaic Church?

2. What are the names of any for-profit and non-profit companies affiliated with all of it's board members?

3. Who are the board members of Mosaic Church and any of the other non-profit organizations? Who are the paid staff of these organizations?

4. Who are the owners (share holders) of the for-profit companies? Who are the paid staff of these companies?

5. What other organizations (profit or non-profit) do these board members overlook, even if not associated with Mosaic?

6. Do any of these board members gain financially from these for-profit or non-profit’s?

7. Are the for-profit companies benefiting financially from Mosaic or the other way around, or both?

8. Non-profit’s board meet at minimum of once a year, which must include minutes, are the members of this organization given a copy those minutes?

9. Does Mosaic Church ever create situations where non-paid volunteers for the non-profit provides a service where the for-profit company generates income and thus a profit?

Thats all for now... I may have more once some of these questions are answered.

I agree that someone with real authority at Mosaic should answer these questions. A post here would be find or I am guessing Yvonne would accept the information via her email. I am open to recieving this info via email.

Optimus Prime said... Did Jimmys email have anything to do with MOP? Im confused.

April 13, 2007 10:15 PM

Jimmy Duke used to work for Awaken. After I posted that last comment, he sent an email to my address with the same offer to answer any questions I may have. He made an honest mistake about my relationship with my brother-in-law based on other comments he read here.

As far as answering any questions go, I will let everyone know how things turn out.

Near the village of Gevas in eastern Turkey, while shepherds ate their breakfast, one of their sheep jumped off a 45-foot cliff to its death. Then, as the stunned shepherds looked on, the rest of the flock followed. In all, 1,500 sheep mindlessly stumbled off the cliff. The only good news was that the last 1,000 were cushioned in their fall by the growing woolly pile of those who jumped first. According to The Washington Post, 450 sheep died.

Yes, this could be just as true for MOP. The only difference is that we have our heads up and are asking questions...

Anonymous said:Yes, this could be just as true for MOP. The only difference is that we have our heads up and are asking questions...

I'm not sure what you're implying here about the Mosaic volunteer staff, but when I clicked on the Our Daily Bread link you gave, I was led to this interesting reflection:

Jesus told a parable about the problem of not seeing our own faults. He said, “How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me remove the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the plank that is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye” (Luke 6:42).

Being able to see other people’s faults easily without ever noticing my own is not just an indication of hypocrisy. It can be a wake-up call that the problem in a struggling relationship may be me. Perhaps it’s my attitude that needs to change. Or I’m the one who needs to apologize. Maybe I’m the person who needs a humble spirit.

It’s a lesson some of us have to learn over and over. We can’t change others, but with God’s help we can change our own behavior. And when our attitude changes, it may seem as if others have changed as well. —Cindy Hess Kasper

As for the implications made by the person posting that story, I will leave them to answer. I on the other hand would like to ask you a few questions.

Does anything that MOP post cause you to stop and at least question? Question your words, actions and intent. Question those around you, question the leaders that are pastoring over so many. I started raising questions years ago when things just didn't look right, didn't sound right, or when someone wasn't treated right. I questioned it but didn't respond, didn't take action until I was hurt. Is this the place we must be in in order to respond?

Is there ever a place in your church for such questions. It's been my experience that there isn't a time or place to ask questions and have any real role in this church. Whom challenges Erwin? Only those walking out the door.

Have you gone to the elders, not just the ones on staff? Have you asked those that have left what their stories are? Have you read the many pages that try and express the pain. I guess for some it simply doesn't matter that there was so much hurt and it continues.

I believe it matters and I know that as truth continues to be laid out before us we will all understand a little better. Alot of the pain and hurt was done behind closed doors.

Please check out these videos. I believe it is basically the same message that is being communicated by Mosaic. I think it is a sad message because in order to become relevant to the world they have basically turned to mocking generations of "Christ Followers" whose own efforts at working out their faith in fear and trembling has become "uncool". My Great Grandfather was a Mennonite. Today's "Christ Followers" might mock his traditions and his style of worship, but he laid the groundwork for generations in my family. He may not have been cool or relevant, but he prayed for his family. Check out the videos and let me know what you think.

Interesting. I went on there and looked at all the clips. Then I started reading some comments:

# 15 diane Says:November 2nd, 2006 at 12:42 pm

There are a lot of good points in these videos and I got a smile from most of it. What I noticed most was in the first video the ‘Christ-follower’ didn’t have or recognize the ‘manual’..the Bible. Although there are times that religious study gets over-done, the core truths of Christ and his followers are in the Bible. God’s Holy word is what we need to keep us centered – Acts 17:11. How can we effective follow Christ and be His example to the world if we don’t know His teachings? Give the Christ follower a Bible.

#16 Julie Says:November 2nd, 2006 at 6:58 pm

Funny, but I would like the “Christ Follower” to be a little less arrogant & a little more loving. We can witness to people w/o having a self righteous attitude about it. What’s the old saying, “You catch more flies w/ honey than w/ vinegar?” (Hope I didn’t accidentally post this twice; I don’t think it went through the first time!)

These comments have nothing to do with MOP, other than the similar observations. I too have noticed the arrogance found in the "Christ Follower" - sort of a, "I am better than you." mentality.

Even the Mac Guy is more loving then the "Christ Follower" in those clips. : 0

Anonymous said... Rumor has it that one of Mosaic's elders was just forced to resign due his concerns over some of the issues that have been brought up on MOP. Anyone know any more about this?

May 1, 2007 2:20 PM

Anonymous,

That rumor is referring to my father, Pastor Robert Martinez, who recently resigned his position as an elder of Mosaic. He did not resign as a result of this or any other website but for reasons of his own related to Mosaic.

As you read through many of the questions on MOP concerning Mosaic's handling of finances, you might just become a little flustered and confused.

You will notice that there are a number of questions being asked from different perspectives and concerns. This alone can be disconcerting. Well, this has happened because Mosaic, as a non-profit organization has not been transparent in its non-profit dealings. They are practicing more of a "non-disclosure" approach to their finances. Similar to how a "for profit" corporation does.

This creates a greater curiosity on the part of those whom are just looking for clear answers to fairly asked questions.

On the other hand, Mosaic is led by a "cultural architect" so maybe this is why there is a CULTURE of non-disclosure.

Yes I have also heard another elder has or is about to resign. I believe there were 5 elders with at least 2 (possibly 3) that are not in agreement with Erwin and where he is taking this church.

For all those reading that have been so opposed to MOP because Erwin couldn't possibly treat people the way it's been said on these boards... we'll the one thing you may wonder is... where is the party. If Robert Martinez has just retired or resigned as an elder much less a staff person, where is celebration of his dedication to the church, to it's members. One would think there would be a huge celebration, food, music, testemonies... the works... or... umm... at least cake and ice cream from Costco after a service. Something...

We'll I guess Robert's work didn't mean enough to Mosiac BUT in another few years we will hear about how Erwin counseling programs have shaped our culture in some magical way. It's called HARD WORK Mr. McManus.

If Robert is gone and another on his way out I wonder whom is left to keep Erwin Accountable. Yes remember that is part of the role of being an Elder. The role isn't to be Erwin's main buddies. It isn't to meet once a year in order to keep your 501c3 (non profit status). It is to ensure this guy stays on the right course. Whom is doing that???

Anonymous said... Just because Robert Martinez retired does not indicate problems. Wasn't he of that age anyway?

May 6, 2007 10:27 AM

Anonymous,

I wrote about my father's situation at my blog, Solid Foods.www.solidfoods.blogspot.com

I'll assume you are new to these discussions and do not know what happened to my father.

When my father was asked to step down from his paid staff position he was actually a few months shy of his 65 birthday and due to recent changes in the rules governing the collection of Social Security benefits he would have had to wait even longer after his birthday to be eligible to receive assistance. In answer to your question, no; my father was not quite at the right "age" for retirement.

Don't be misled though by whether or not he was the "right age" for retirement, the important point is:

My father NEVER INTENDED to retire in the first place, he was ASKED to do it.

Last night I caught Mad TV and they did a skit on Survivor. It was called “Holy Wars”. The different teams were different world religions. Muslims, Christians, Jews and good ol’ wacky Scientologists. The challenge was to turn salt water into drinkable fresh water.

The Muslims didn’t care to do anything but blow up anyone that disagreed with them. The Scientologists were just crazy enough to convince themselves that they could drink salt water. The rub? You would think it would be a slam dunk for Christians, after all their leader once turned water to wine!

Unfortunately, with groups that market the message like the group in question, Mad TV had the Christian team led by a TV Evangelist asking the viewers to send in fresh water. Looks like we’re getting labeled in that way. : (

Yvonne,You've done a lot of reserch on Mosaic and Awaken, thank you. What is Eric Bryant's answer to all of the muddle info. on the Awaken site and the organizations who did not give Awaken permision to be on their website as organizations working cooperatively with them? Concerned Member

During the early days of the church that Mosaic came from (Church on Brady) there were a few who attended and were in the arts, but they were there naturally. Either they became Christians at that particular church or moved into the arts after becoming a member at Brady.

Erwin has a different model. He likes to come speak at your church, or have your talented members attend his conferences, where he will then "invite" them to become part of Mosaic. Essentially stealing from the fold.

Especially since Erwin has run off most of the original talent that was at Brady, he has chosen to now go after as many as he can acumulate in his one church. And he doesn't think there is anything wrong with this.

Anonymous said... Yvonne,You've done a lot of reserch on Mosaic and Awaken, thank you. What is Eric Bryant's answer to all of the muddle info. on the Awaken site and the organizations who did not give Awaken permision to be on their website as organizations working cooperatively with them? Concerned Member

May 7, 2007 12:20 PM

Concerned Member,

Eric Bryant has not responded to the last email I sent him. He has still not acknowledged my request to see "Awakens" (whichever organization that name currently applies to) documentation which I submitted on April 17, 2007.

According to the IRS website faq's:http://www.irs.gov/charities/article/0,,id=96430,00.html

"In general, exempt organizations must make available for public inspection certain annual returns and applications for exemption, and must provide copies of such returns and applications to individuals who request them. Copies usually must be provided immediately in the case of in-person requests, and within 30 days in the case of written requests. The tax-exempt organization may charge a reasonable copying fee plus actual postage, if any."

Also:

"Responsible persons of a tax-exempt organization who fail to provide the documents as required may be subject to a penalty of $20 per day for as long as the failure continues. There is a maximum penalty of $10,000 for each failure to provide a copy of an annual information return. There is no maximum penalty for the failure to provide a copy of an exemption application."

Eric Bryant has 10 more days to respond before the 30 day limit on my request expires.

I haven't heard anything further from the charities I contacted. They are aware of the Awaken website's use of their names but it is up them to decide what,if anything, they are willing to do about it.

I posted a few weeks ago, and want to say, I really appreciate all of your hard work right now. This whole thing makes me absolutely sick to my stomach. My husband and I are now strongly considering leaving Mosaic, because of the information you are providing here. Something definitely is not right, and although I only have listened to this side of the story, I really wish someone from Mosaic leadership would interact on this blog, rather than ignore it.

The financial concerns brought up here and on Yvonne's blog are big, in my opinion. I know I could try to talk to someone in leadership to get answers, but I'd rather see something here, in public eye, because SO MANY people are reading this blog from all over, they also need answers.

Even though I don't chat among you, I continue to watch your conversations everyday. What you're doing here is good, exposing truth in a church full of lies is important for those of us attending.

Why does MOP have to keep Mosaic accountable? Shouldn't Mosaic members or elders do this, what gives??

anonymous... I appreciate the question and believe if you continue asking questions either here or ask Mosaic Leadership (staff & elders and former elders) you may be quite suprised as to what you hear.

Most of us on this side of the fence know first hand the pain that this man has caused. I for one know that the average member has a much louder voice then I will have. It is my hope that one person will demand some answers of some of the pain that has been caused. Not being a member any longer my voice looks to some as bigger or unforgiving or spiteful.

The hope is that the average member of this church will stand up and hold this man accountable. For now we sense it is our duty to call for sincerety.

Ancient-Eastern artificers created beautiful statues from clay to be fired in a kiln, painted and sold. Occasionally, something would go wrong, leaving flaws in the finished product. Unscrupulous merchants would then purchase these flawed items at a vastly-reduced price, fill the gaps with wax and paint over them, and then ask the same price for them as for the perfect products. Advocates of best practice would attempt to counter the problem in the market-place by certifying with signs declaring their wares to be SINE CERA-'without wax': a claim for which credibility was strengthened by willingly displaying their products out of the shade - in the full heat of the sun. Disreputable dealers became 'shady characters' - lest the sun's heat should expose the fraudulent nature of their products.

----------------------------------------

There has been a call to those leading the church called Mosaic to be taken out of the shade and to be placed into the full heat of the sun. Current members, former members and outsiders (those never attended the church) are asking for this leadership group to be placed in the sunlight to be examined. Some are arguing that the method in which this call to accountability could or should have been handled different. They argue that there could have been more private meetings, more private discussions and more private correspondence. This approach has proven fruitless over many years, and has only caused even more pain to the wounded.

Considering this leadership group will not stand and be accountable, we must expose the truth for the church body to examine. It is time for the church to take action. The mission of Mosaic of Pain is as follows:

The primary aim of Mosaic Of Pain is to call for Repentance, Resignation and Restitution of the leadership group of Mosaic, specifically it’s elders and lead pastor Erwin McManus, considering the abuse of power, abuse of finances and the abuse of God’s word.

"The overall definition of someone with a narcissistic personality disorder is characterized by a combination of severe limitations in understanding other people and their feelings, as well as an excessive pursuit of what are called narcissistic supplies, such as admiration, attention, status, understanding, support, MONEY, power, control, or perfection in some form."

"At other times, the intimidation dynamic may be more overt, such as when the NPD person directly wields his authority by making continual refereneces to the differences in your positions of power, professional stature, status or MONEY."

"Use of MONEY: The narcissist pastor is very concerned about his own MONEY, about tithing, and about having MONEY to spend when he wants to."

"You will remember that the narcissist's need for attention, power, etc., are primary avenues of experiencing himself as a self. Therefore, MONEY is frequently experienced as a "self-object," meaning that it has for all practical purposes the significance of being as important to him as his arm or leg."

Quoting SD:I think it is a sad message because in order to become relevant to the world they have basically turned to mocking generations of "Christ Followers" whose own efforts at working out their faith in fear and trembling has become "uncool".

Has Erwin ever mocked a sincere follower of Christ? Or does he call out a culture of hypocrisy (which, sadly, Christians can often be) for what it is? It's a dangerous thing to link to a website completely unaffiliated with Mosaic and say, "Yeah, I think they're saying the same thing!" It's a rhetorical device called building a straw man, and while it's convenient for the purposes of demonization, it actually has no basis in reality.

Quoting anonymous:

Word has it another Elder is on his way out, too.

Really? Whose "inside ear" do you have?

Quoting anonymous:

The article at Apprising Ministries was more of the same expose' on a man (Erwin) that thinks he is somehow more relevant than Jesus.

Do you have a quote to back that up? Erwin is more relevant than Ken Silva, most likely, but since Ken delights in his irrelevance and call anyone who tries to be relevant apostate (and that goes for pretty much anyone who disagrees with him and his remarkably narrow definition of Christian), that's not really saying much.

Quoting anonymous:

On the other hand, Mosaic is led by a "cultural architect" so maybe this is why there is a CULTURE of non-disclosure.

Snide comments aside, are you a member of Mosaic? Have you personally experienced this "culture of non-disclosure"? Have YOU ever asked any questions about Awaken or Mosaic of the leadership? As a member of Mosaic, I have.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's pretty tough to make any kinds of demands when you're so busy calling for the heads of the church that you can't even see straight. I actually admire that Eric answered as many of Yvonne's questions as he did.

Quoting anonymous:we'll the one thing you may wonder is... where is the party. If Robert Martinez has just retired or resigned as an elder much less a staff person, where is celebration of his dedication to the church, to it's members.

Robert was offered just such a party. He declined. However, he has been publicly prayed for and thanked repeatedly at various leadership events for his tireless service to Mosaic.

Quoting anonymous:

Erwin has a different model. He likes to come speak at your church, or have your talented members attend his conferences, where he will then "invite" them to become part of Mosaic. Essentially stealing from the fold.

Really? Name five people he's "stolen."

Confused/Concerned Mosaic Attender said:I only have listened to this side of the story

If we're going to honestly talk about the truth, then it probably behooves us to get both sides of the story, doesn't it -- especially before you start referring to Mosaic as a "church filled with lies." According to whom? MOP? Don't let anyone deceive you -- this website and MOP have their own agendas -- neither of which, sadly, have anything to do with advancing the cause (or, for that matter, modelling the love, humility, and service) of Jesus Christ.

Cris said:For now we sense it is our duty to call for sincerety.

You're not calling for sincerity. You're calling for firings. And can anyone please tell me what the Biblical model for that is? Anyone? When can anyone outside a church come in and demand the firing of the head pastor, and be given any kind of legitimacy? That's before we even get into the Scripture of it all. Ken Silva sure couldn't come up with a single Biblical back-up for his "Apprising ministries" when he and I swapped emails. I can sure see thieves coming in to rob, steal, and destroy through this website -- so I guess that's one model -- but I'm not sure you guys want to be aligned with wolves.

Yvonne said (quoting the IRS):"In general, exempt organizations must make available for public inspection certain annual returns and applications for exemption, and must provide copies of such returns and applications to individuals who request them."

Which returns are legally open for public inspection? This statement seems to indicate that only some are. Are you positive you're asking for returns that are legally available to you?

Yvonne said:Eric Bryant has 10 more days to respond before the 30 day limit on my request expires.

Yes, because we all know how well ultimatums work. And are you positive you've even requested files that are actually available to you?

Yvonne said:I haven't heard anything further from the charities I contacted. They are aware of the Awaken website's use of their names but it is up them to decide what,if anything, they are willing to do about it.

After reading your website, I am shocked -- SHOCKED -- to find that Awaken mentions that they have worked with those organizations in the past. Nowhere does Awaken say those organizations are under Awaken; nowhere does Awaken say that they run those organizations. So I'm not really sure what controversy you're trying to create, Yvonne.

And I have NO idea what the comment about money has to do with Erwin. Have you guys ever met the man? Have you ever heard him talk about money in any way, shape, or form from the stage? Have you ever heard him talk about money privately? Do you know how generous he is with his resources? You do know this "million dollar mansion" he lives in is in Whitter, right, not Beverly Hills? You do know that it's used for ministry just about every day of the week, right? You do know the man is an author as well, right, and that even though his books will in no way ever be the best-sellers that Rick Warren's was (in part because Erwin isn't the writer Rick is), isn't he allowed to use his own money to buy his own jeans?

But hey -- don't let half-truths, biased perspectives, anger and bitterness get in the way of the straw man you're trying to create. Keep on biting and devouring, guys -- one day you will prove to be as tasty as Erwin is.

When you write, "Robert was offered just such a party. He declined." where did you get that information? You certainly didn't hear it from my father because he didn't DECLINE a party, what he said was "Not at this time."

My father didn't want to retire, he was forced to do it. Now I ask you, would you want a "party" under such circumstances?

You also wrote, Are you positive you're asking for returns that are legally available to you? YES, I am absolutely positive that the documents I have asked for are open to public inspection by anyone who asks for them. For a list of which documents are open to public inspection please see:

http://www.irs.gov/charities/article/0,,id=135008,00.html

In response to your comment regarding the time limit to respond to a request for such documents:

Yes, because we all know how well ultimatums work. And are you positive you've even requested files that are actually available to you?

This was not an "ultimatum" but a reminder that Eric Bryant will be subject to penalties for failure to disclose such information. This is how the ruling is worded:What are the penalties for failure to comply with the disclosure requirements, and who must pay them?

Responsible persons of a tax-exempt organization who fail to provide the documents as required may be subject to a penalty of $20 per day for as long as the failure continues. There is a maximum penalty of $10,000 for each failure to provide a copy of an annual information return. There is no maximum penalty for the failure to provide a copy of an exemption application.

http://www.irs.gov/charities/article/0,,id=135028,00.html

Am I wrong for warning Eric to take this seriously?

If you want to know more about the IRS disclosure rules regarding non profit organizations please go to:http://www.irs.gov/charities/article/0,,id=96430,00.html

"Anonymous," you wrote:

After reading your website, I am shocked -- SHOCKED -- to find that Awaken mentions that they have worked with those organizations in the past.

Which "Awaken" are you referring to?

Awaken Center for Creativity?

Awaken International?

or the newly created . . .

Awaken Humanity?

This is beside the point though, the point is that the "Awaken" webpage is not saying that it has "worked with" those organizations "in the past" but that it is working in "cooperation with" those organizations now. There is a huge difference between those concepts.

As I reported on my blog, these organizations understand the difference.

Nowhere does Awaken say those organizations are under Awaken;

The organizations you are referring to are listed under the "Awaken Humanity" banner on the "Awaken" webpage. At the very least this is confusing and could be interpreted as being misleading. At worst, it could be interpreted as deceptive because it implies that these organizations endorse Awakens activities.

. . .nowhere does Awaken say that they run those organizations. So I'm not really sure what controversy you're trying to create, Yvonne.

"Anonymous" this is the heart of the problem, nowhere does "Awaken" say that it doesn't run these organizations. Why are the web addresses for each charity not listed? Why is there a video clip of Emthonjeni but no mention of this charity's name in the text? Why is Awaken urging donors to make out their checks to "Awaken" when the L.A. Mission's policy is to have donor checks intended for them made out to the L.A. Mission?Why did Eric Bryant tell Yvonne Napoleon that he "had some money" for her charity, Neo Underground Railroad, and then never follow through on this?

Why is there so much confusion over so many things associated with Awaken?

"Anonymous", I didn't create this controversy, Awaken did it all by itself.

I have met Erwin McManus in person. I used to go to Mosaic. I was married at the Church on Brady and I served many years there in various ministries including the now closed "His Way" media center (Brady's Bookstore.) I was there when Erwin McManus accepted the "mantle" of leadership from Pastor Thomas Wolf.

I grew up in Whittier (in a gang area) and I can tell you this, the part of town that Erwin now resides in has always been known as the "rich" side of town. My husband works in Century City near Beverly Hills and the "Friendly Hills" area of Whittier is comparable to Beverly Hills in terms of its beauty and the size of it's mansions.

I don't begrudge Erwin his luxuries, as an author he is entitled to enjoy the fruits of his hard work and live wherever he wants to, drive whatever he wants to, and dress however he likes. I have no problem with his lifestyle.

I do think that as "president of Awaken" Erwin McManus needs to take responsibility for the "suspended" corporations that bear his name and clear up the confusion surrounding the latest incarnation of "Awaken" before it gets worse.

"Anonymous",

Snide comments aside, are you a member of Mosaic? Have you personally experienced this "culture of non-disclosure"? Have YOU ever asked any questions about Awaken or Mosaic of the leadership? As a member of Mosaic, I have.

"Anonymous", the entire second part of my blog, A Wake Up Call to Erwin McManus and Awaken, is entirely about the questions I asked leadership regarding Awaken and Mosaic. YES, I did "experience" this "culture of non disclosure" first hand and it was not pleasant.

I actually admire that Eric answered as many of Yvonne's questions as he did.

I'm not sure that the Mosaic/Awaken leadership would agree with you on this one since his answers are now "in writing."

Anonymous (with the pinned up anger, Many of the writers on this site have had the courage to write their names to their post. This has not been easy for anyone to write. We know Erwin very well. WE have heard his sermons, some of them a second time.

"Has Erwin ever mocked a sincere follower of Christ? Or does he call out a culture of hypocrisy (which, sadly, Christians can often be) for what it is? It's a dangerous thing to link to a website completely unaffiliated with Mosaic and say, "Yeah, I think they're saying the same thing!" It's a rhetorical device called building a straw man, and while it's convenient for the purposes of demonization, it actually has no basis in reality."

Who gives you or Erwin the right to call the church hypocrites. Shame on you and your pastor. Do you find this cool or "artsey"? Its not appropriate, or correct. Who has given your church that authority? Its mocking brother, painted how ever you like. Now I have written here and other places on my opinon of the Emergent church, which I shared with Erwin. This is a liberal movement that has slowly corroded the church. Erwin is just one representative. However he carries a large megaphone. One reason this site exist is to expose the misleading rhetoric of Erwin. Go back to the past comments and direct quotes. You wrote alot, you must love Erwin very much. I do as well. And that's why I have to write. I'll let my brothers and sisters respond to your other remarks. God Bless your brother in Christ --Jacob Aguilar

"Has Erwin ever mocked a sincere follower of Christ? Or does he call out a culture of hypocrisy (which, sadly, Christians can often be) for what it is?"

For starters:

McManus says:

And I can tell you when I began this journey in L.A. fifteens years ago I was just an attender at Mosaic. It wasn't called Mosaic then, it had a different name. It was called The Church on Brady, which actually had a legal name of "First Southern Baptist Church of East Los Angeles (audience laughter). That's a beautifully relevant name, isn't it? (audience laughter)

Annonymous from earlier today… thanks for your thoughts and questions. A question for you, why write without a name? Also, alot of your questions have been asked and answered in previous comments so it may be advantageous to read through the various blogs and sites.

I hope my words help you to understand where I stand on the issues.

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Word has it another Elder is on his way out, too.

Really? Whose "inside ear" do you have?

First, is this a question or are you being sarcastic? I can tell you that quite a bit of information is being brought out on the various sites that would not have be brought to light.

Secondly, unfortanatly, Erwin has proven to be an unsafe person concerning people that speak up or ask tough questions. I doubt anyone at this point is willing to “out” anyone who is a "inside ear". The pain for some is unbearable. Imagine for a moment we were right. Imagine what that would mean to your family, friends. Imagine what you will do this Sunday if you know you couldn't attend. This is a difficult process for most. Very painful.

Those members that don't quite see it our way but do want to ask questions have to be extremly careful about speaking out if they see a real issue, if they are confused, worried and what this all means. They realize there is a great devide on the two sides of this issue. They have communicated if they openly question the staff/elders they will be treated as someone whom is only bringing division.

These people include all levels of members at MOSAIC. People may not be speaking out yet but you should know they are reading and trying to make sense of all of this. Some are starting to ask questions. That is good news as I see that as the start of bringing out the truth.

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Snide comments aside, are you a member of Mosaic? Have you personally experienced this "culture of non-disclosure"? Have YOU ever asked any questions about Awaken or Mosaic of the leadership? As a member of Mosaic, I have.

I am a former member of MOSAIC and I can surely tell you this “culture of non-disclosure” has been happening for years. Examples include the way they discard staff, pastors, elders and members that don’t aline with Erwin as well as the Believe the Impossible campain. They give misleading, bad, partial, or no information regarding these issues. This has created a culture of “non-disclosure”. Yes I have witnessed this first hand.

Now considering Awaken, all I can say is it’s strange that you would think this is a problem. You as a member should be grateful that Yvonne is asking these questions. At the very least the leadership team will get it’s Awaken ducks in order. I don’t personally enjoy being held accountable either but I know it’s good for me, it makes me better. If what Yvonne is asking is not within her rights then there will be no penalties, right?

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I only have listened to this side of the story

If we're going to honestly talk about the truth, then it probably behooves us to get both sides of the story, doesn't it -- especially before you start referring to Mosaic as a "church filled with lies." According to whom? MOP? Don't let anyone deceive you -- this website and MOP have their own agendas -- neither of which, sadly, have anything to do with advancing the cause (or, for that matter, modelling the love, humility, and service) of Jesus Christ.

As far as “agenda”, it can be found here: Mission Statment . Did a someone tell you that our agenda is different than what has been stated? If so, please share.

As far as how “we” at times advance our cause I can tell you I ask God to lead me during this difficult processs. I fought this for quite some time, trying to move on but waves of pain continued to flow. I saw others hurt after me and it's getting worse. Admittingly we have at times sounded angry. Some take this and make accusations of “us” being bitter and hateful. Let me make this very clear and without shame. Some of us are angry. Very angry. Anger at times is good, often proper and is needed under certain situations. Although I am angry I personally have tried to be patient and work at presenting our “cause” one day at a time, brick by brick, revealing the truth that has been obstructed. Unfortunatly, I have seen a pattern in this pain. Often unless you experience the pain first hand it is difficult to see, difficult to grasp. I am ashamed to say until I saw it first hand I didn’t truly understand that there was a major problem, a pattern was being created. I sensed there was something wrong but the consequeces of me truly exploring this pain meant major loss to me, my family and friends. How could I have served under this man for so long, allowing him to hurt so many and I did nothing. I ended up face to face with that pain in the end.

This is the reason why I personally try and remain patient because I understand it is difficult for you to see. My only suggestions is to ask questions. Also remember that this isn’t one or two of us that has had an issue, although that should be enough. Read the various blogs and sites. There are dozens that have spoken up about their own pain.

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Cris said:For now we sense it is our duty to call for sincerety.

You're not calling for sincerity. You're calling for firings. And can anyone please tell me what the Biblical model for that is? Anyone? When can anyone outside a church come in and demand the firing of the head pastor, and be given any kind of legitimacy? That's before we even get into the Scripture of it all. Ken Silva sure couldn't come up with a single Biblical back-up for his "Apprising ministries" when he and I swapped emails. I can sure see thieves coming in to rob, steal, and destroy through this website -- so I guess that's one model -- but I'm not sure you guys want to be aligned with wolves.

Once again please read here : Mission Statment . My call for sincerety is in reference to the writing before the mission statement. In short, sincerty meaning to put Erwin’s actions into the light.

As far as biblical model, I am totally perplexed by this question. Are you telling me there is never a time for someone outside of a group to have a call for action? Please, are you thinking this through. Even if non of us saw this pain first hand there would, could and should be a call if there is something wrong. Are you saying you find no examples biblically where someone or a group of people is held accountable from “outsiders”? Please tell me you just didn’t think this one through.

Quoting Anonymous Has Erwin ever mocked a sincere follower of Christ? Or does he call out a culture of hypocrisy (which, sadly, Christians can often be) for what it is?

When Erwin openly mocks the the original name of the Church on Brady, The First Southern Baptist Church of East Los Angeles, as being "an incredibly relevant name", he offends people. There was a time when the words Southern Baptist on a church meant you were going to hear the Gospel preached there on Sunday morning. It is a proud heritage to have. When Erwin says his goal is to destroy Christianity and be a recatalyst for Jesus Chist, what does that say about how he views the body of Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit during the last 2k years of Church History? Have there been hypocrites among us? Have we ourselves (Erwin included) been hypocritical? Of course. Does Christianity itself need to be destroyed so that the work of Christ can finally move forward again? Does it take a new Cultural Architect to re catalyze the Gospel to make it more relevant?

Every generation has those who want to be a re catalyst for Jesus and they usually start by denouncing the previous generation as hypocrites or not authentic. "You may be a Christian, but I am an Evangelical Christian", or "I am a born again Christian", or the most recent iteration "I am a Christ Follower". Has Erwin mocked a sincere follower of Christ? I find it interesting that you prefer "follower of Christ" to Christian in your wording. Is the badge of honor that Peter, Paul, and countless millions wore unbecoming to you now in this current age? The question at hand is has Erwin mocked Christianity?

Brother Tom and Carol are sincere followers and servants of Christ. What do you call what he did to them? He outright misled the congregation about Brother Tom while his elders remained silent. He forced Carol Davis out and then praised her in front of the entire congregation as he implied that she was leaving of her own accord.

When Mosaic apologizes for the way they have treated the leadership base that built the body they hi-jacked, and return the building they stole and sold, then, maybe then some of this "rhetoric" can stop.

Quoting anonymous:we'll the one thing you may wonder is... where is the party. If Robert Martinez has just retired or resigned as an elder much less a staff person, where is celebration of his dedication to the church, to it's members.

Robert was offered just such a party. He declined. However, he has been publicly prayed for and thanked repeatedly at various leadership events for his tireless service to Mosaic.

Well, there you have it. That is the official Mosaic position. They wanted to give Robert a party, but he didn't want it...and oh yes he has been publicly "prayed" for. The code within groups like Mosaic - saying, "That individual has problems, we don't because we are praying for them."

There comes a time when being thankful means expressing thankfulness to others, especially those whom have been close to you and have impacted your life. I write this letter to express my gratefulness to God for how He brought us together and taught us how to embrace the meaning of fellowship as we served in our ministries. Many years have passed and some of us have traveled a road of many changes. Yet through all the changes and difficult times we faced together, it somehow made us stronger, drew us closer to God, and like the song we used to sing, “Bind us together Lord, bind us together, bind us together with love,” the bond and love we shared together gives me more reason to say thank you for being a part of shaping my life. As I was putting my thoughts together I paused for a moment to remember each one of you and those special loved ones who have gone before us to be with the Lord. I then began to reminisce and recall the spirit of unity and joy when we came together to celebrate and worship God. How I looked forward to the laughter and excitement of being together at every church function. The passage that came to me which best describes what I felt is Psalm 122:1…….

I was glad when they said to me, “Let us go to the house of the Lord.”

I can still remember my first day at work; I wore a suit, white shirt and tie and had no office but worked out of one of the children’s classrooms. Things certainly have changed. We had Sunday school classes, went to church on Sunday evenings, mid-week services, served in ministries on other nights and had business meetings once a month. Things certainly have changed. We sent out short term mission teams to serve churches across the world to help plant new churches, had numerous training and mentoring classes for all ages, and delivered food baskets on cold raining nights every Christmas. Things certainly have changed. Then there were those New Years Eve talent shows, family retreats and yearly “Day of the Congregation.” Wow, things really have changed. Though things do change we need not forget them or necessarily see them of no value now, but remember the fruits it produced from all of those wonderful experiences. I personally have many fond memories and certainly learned much from those valuable years.

As I have taken time to reflect on my journey of more then 28 years at Mosaic and God’s calling as a pastor for the past 24 years, my heart is filled with thanksgiving for the opportunity to serve Him and the Body of Christ. Again, things have changed. Having no thoughts or plans of leaving or retiring I was forced to make decisions I was not prepared for. The decision to retire me with no grounds for dismissal has certainly caused me and my family disappointment and grief. In the past several months there have been things said and done in Elders meetings, ministry meetings and private conversations which caused me to feel that I am in an unsafe environment. There have been attacks and accusations directed at me that are unfounded; many harsh and wounding words shared. From the last meeting it seemed these things would continue to occur. My heart was saddened as I have left those meetings perplexed and suspicious as to the reason for creating such turmoil in my life. I would not have expected such behavior from this leadership team and will continue to pray for resolution.

As many of you already know, I am no longer on the paid staff team and was retired after long months of negotiations. During the negotiations several proposals were presented to me which would have changed my employment conditions significantly. After considering the pros and cons of each proposal, I felt forced to accept a severance package that terminated my employment. In regards to any future role at Mosaic, due to the restrictions that were placed on me, I couldn’t see how I would be able to fulfill the passions that God placed in my heart. Considering all this, I found it very difficult to find a place to serve and be involved in the ministries of this church. I began to fear that if I remained in my role as an Elder and were to oppose or disagree with future decisions, it would only be seen as an expression of bitterness or vindictiveness and possibly divisiveness.

After three months and much to reflect on, the reality of being retired has set in. As I have spent time reading the scriptures and praying, it has become clear to me the direction for my future. It’s without saying that I owe much to you my friends who have supported me and made my journey at The Church on Brady and Mosaic the most memorable experience of my life. Thank you for being there for me and my family and for all the love you pour out to us. God has truly blessed me with so many wonderful memories. I want to extend a special thanks to all the ministries and directors whom I had the privilege and honor to serve with. The transition has been difficult but now I am at peace and sense God’s leading to move on.

It was an honor to serve you as a pastor and now with much sadness I am writing this letter to let you know that I have submitted my resignation as Elder to the Board of Elders of Mosaic effective as of April 2, 2007. This was a very difficult decision for my wife and I to face. The encouragement I lean on is to know that God is in control and I rely on the promises that “God knows the plans he has for me, plans for success and not suffering to give me a future filled with hope.” I will continue to live my life by the Word of God, to speak the truth and tell others of His love. I am committed to follow God’s call to serve those in need of counseling, to teach the Word and offer my services in times of crises. Now, these things certainly will not change. You will remain close to my heart and I pray that our friendship will not only continue but that you will know I will always be ready to serve you and be available whenever there is a need. May God’s rich blessings be upon you.

“Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain”. I Corinthians 15:58

Thank you Cris, Ruben, Robbie, Yvonne, Eddie, Frank and the whole gang at MOP. I know its been tough these few months. I think because of your dilligence and love for the family of God that Robert will be the last to be dismissed in the manner he was let go. Its funny how some are so offended that MOP is asking for Erwin's resignation and he hasn't had any problems letting people go at Mosaic and the other churchers he worked at. I guess you got ot stick at what your good at. And yes shame on you Mosaic. And how about the leaders that are currently at mosaic who have shared their concerns about Erwin. Its time to annie-up. A MOP Member

In looking back to the recent past at some of the comments made I thought I would comment now consideirng Robert’s letter helps shed some light on where he stands.

Below are some comments made in February from this blog, with a few of my thoughts added (I did some cut and paste therefore I added the date so that you could read it in context if you choose):

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February 22, 2007 7:31 AM Mosaic Of Love said...

2. Do you think Erwin works in a bubble? he has an elder board that he is accountable to for his decisions. Now, I suppose you could dismiss that and say that Robert, Enrique, Rick, etc are all brainwashed and controlled by the man himself (that would be all too easy). But assuming that isn't the logical case, then Robert, Rick, Enrique, etc. are all equally responsible for the actions you have described. Therefore, you need to call all of their characters into question.

Considering Robert’s letter, I don't think Robert was keeping Erwin accountable for Erwin's decisions. Erwin working in a bubble?… Bubble or Cone of Silence? Erwin simply doesn't like a culture of questions and accountability. Robert represented 25% of his accountability team. Is this not a cause for concern, if not, may I suggest that it is you whom is choosing to live in a bubble of denial.

Just add a little more pain to the heaping mound that Erwin serves.

More pain? Why order more pain?

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February 22, 2007 12:36 PM Mosaic Of Love said... …….• These people have refused to go public with their stories because they don’t feel it necessary to bring up hurtful information that puts many of these events in context (i.e. moral failures, painful marriage situations, etc.). But maybe that needs to happen?

People... don't you see the patterns of pain. Deflection at it's best. Robert touches on this issue…

In the past several months there have been things said and done in Elders meetings, ministry meetings and private conversations which caused me to feel that I am in an unsafe environment. There have been attacks and accusations directed at me that are unfounded; many harsh and wounding words shared. From the last meeting it seemed these things would continue to occur.

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February 23, 2007 1:23 PM Jimmy Duke stated:

… I know Robert Martinez, and I love him to death. I respect him deeply. When Robert is ready to speak publicly about his situation, he will, and I will listen. Until then, I choose not to comment on private conversations between daughter and father. But no matter what he says, I will always love him and support him in whatever way I can.

Jimmy… have you reached out to Robert? You wrote that in February, it's now May. I have to imagine you have spoken to him by now considering you love him so dearly. You used words like love, respect and support. I am glad that you are/will be doing this. Is he all that diffent then before. Did he sound bitter? Did he sound hateful? Did he sound like he wanted revenge?

If the primary goal of MOP is resignation from Erwin and the Elders, then everyone should be happy. What's up with the "God speed" comment from Eddie? Why is everyone suddenly defending him? Didn't Robert receive the same dose of medicine he once dispersed to Brother Tom? Robert was given no notice, no apology, and no forum to voice his protest. JUST LIKE BROTHER TOM! How I see it, it's 1 down and 4 more to go! You MOP people are starting to get soft.

If the primary goal of MOP is resignation from Erwin and the Elders, then everyone should be happy. What's up with the "God speed" comment from Eddie? Why is everyone suddenly defending him? Didn't Robert receive the same dose of medicine he once dispersed to Brother Tom? Robert was given no notice, no apology, and no forum to voice his protest. JUST LIKE BROTHER TOM! How I see it, it's 1 down and 4 more to go! You MOP people are starting to get soft.

TC"

TC,

MOP people are not a collective of people that sit around deciding how to proceed forward with all of this. It is a group of individuals that have been abused and discarded and this blog has allowed us to voice our concerns.

I love Robert Martinez, have gone on a number of short term mission trips with the man and worked in ministry with him for many years. I would pray that any Elder at Mosaic who attempts to oppose you people (the ones with hearts of stone, like you TC) I will pray for them and ask that God raise any Elder who attempts to change the status quo over there at Mosaic, that Elder be blessed. If he goes down in the midst of that attempt, I wish him and his "God's Speed".

Anonymous said... If the primary goal of MOP is resignation from Erwin and the Elders, then everyone should be happy. What's up with the "God speed" comment from Eddie? Why is everyone suddenly defending him? Didn't Robert receive the same dose of medicine he once dispersed to Brother Tom? Robert was given no notice, no apology, and no forum to voice his protest. JUST LIKE BROTHER TOM! How I see it, it's 1 down and 4 more to go! You MOP people are starting to get soft.

TC

May 11, 2007 12:21 AM

NO, TC, it was NOT the same thing.

(1)When Bro. Tom left he had already stepped down from leadership at Brady to pursue a new career at Golden Gate Seminary, in other words; he voluntarily left one PAID position and moved into another PAID position. Bro. Tom's livelihood was never an issue.

(2)Bro. Tom was NOT "asked to leave", for no reason, in fact; he wasn't even "asked to leave" exactly. What happened was that due to tensions between Bro. Tom and Erwin, the elders asked Bro. Tom to leave for a short "cooling off" period (a few months I believe) to give the congregation time to get used to seeing Erwin as the lead pastor. Once this was accomplished, Bro. Tom would be welcomed back.

Bro. Tom agreed to this proposal in writing but later had a change of heart and decided to leave Brady altogether.

There was never any malice intended on the part of the elders, they did the best they could under difficult circumstances.

Since then, my father has been in contact with Bro. Tom and they have made great progress in restoring their friendship.

If you really are concerned about Bro. Tom, please send your contact information or email address to yvonneneem@gmail.com and I will gladly forward it to Bro. Tom.

On the dismissal of Bro Tom, I dont lay serious blame on Robert Martinez or any other elder. I dont lay the blame at their feet for the same reason I dont publicly criticize any of the Mosaic leaders, both small group leaders or staff/elders (Greg Soohoo, Enrique, Rick, Dave Auda, etc.) Most of these are good people working at the behest of a man whose ego has got the best of him. Erwin McManus was behind the removal of Bro Tom and Carol Davis. To blame things on Robert is lazy and a distraction. You know where the buck stops and if you follow it you will see a trail of carcasses on the way. When people post silly comments like "Why is everyone suddenly defending him? Didn't Robert receive the same dose of medicine he once dispersed to Brother Tom" it shows lazy thinking, at best, and a compounding of a serious problem. The way Robert was treated was abusive. Why compound that abuse, TC, by asking us not to defend him? Shifting back to Bro Tom, he was maltreated, too, no question. Again, I blame one man for that and always will. Here were the conditions given to Bro Tom after he was ousted and he requested to speak to the elders:

1. Brother Tom had to go alone; he could not bring a witness. 2. Brother Tom would not be allowed to speak or address Erwin and the elders. 3. Brother Tom would not be allowed to tell anyone what was said to him.

Does that seem fair? No. Although you could make an argument that condition 1 was a fair condition because the witness, if chosen by Bro Tom, would most likely sway in Bro Tom's favor. So to alleviate that problem, why not pick a witness agreed to by both sides? Condition numbers 2 and 3 are ridiculous. Does Robert deserve some criticism for his role in Bro Tom's dismissal? I dont think so. We all know who called the shot.

I find it funny that in your original mission statement for MOP, you asked for the resignation of the current Mosaic leadership staff including the Elders and now that one of the Elders has resigned, you simply change your mission or added extra verbage. Wasn't Robert there at the original meeting where Bro Tom was asked to leave? waqsn't he standing right next to Erwin when they met? If it wasn't his idea, isn't he still responsible because he was the executive pastor and let it happen? Didn't he know Bro Tom for over 20 years? Where did that loyalty go? How can you put all the blame on Erwin? If this entire posting is about Erwin, then you should change your mission statement and stop taking jabs at Eric, Jimmy and the rest of the leadership at Mosaic. Don't get me wrong, I have read everything you are claiming and I am disgusted by the fact that none of the elders or erwin has responded. I understand if Erwin doesn't want to respond to Ken Silva or anyone else watching from the outside but you guys were "insiders". You served with him, broker bread with him, visited each others homes. I don't want it to seem like I am taking jabs at Robert but he was there when everything happened (Bro Tom, Believe the impossible, etc). Surely he must carry some of the blame? Good luck getting your answers MOP. We (many many members/staff) at Mosaic eagerly await the answers.

Your correct Mosaic leadership hasn't taken this site seriously. They've scrambled, but not humbled themselves to address the issues that have been brought out. MOP will continue and receive new members. We'll continue to wait and pray for Erwin to do the right thing. Now the world knows.

Concerning the addition of "(where responsible)" that addition to the mission statement went up two months ago, before Robert Martinez' announcement. Maybe the confusion is that it has not been amended everywhere on this site, Cris?

The bottom line is that Erwin will probably never humble himself or deal with these claims, it isn't in his nature. Thus, the leadership, e.g., voting Elders need to take these claims seriously now that all of this has gone public and they can now be held culpable for ignoring their responsibilities there at Mosaic.

Robert tried to deal with much of this for the past few years (many of us stayed and tried to work from the "inside" on much of this) but he was unable to see change and forced out.

Hi, I want to clear up a comment that was stated a few days ago. I am the niece of Robert Martinez and I led a trip overseas about a month ago. Yes, It was suppose to be a Mosaic trip, but I was asking some questions and concerns regarding Mosaic and they gave me 3 options: 1)to postpone the trip, 2)to find another person to lead the trip, and or 3)to go as a non-Mosaic team. I was not asked to leave Mosaic. I made my choice to leave Mosaic for various reasons. I was very saddened and disappointed on how Mosaic leadership responded to me. I felt like a business associate instead of a sister in Christ. I shared this with one of the leaders, but they did not fully understand. If there are any questions, people can email me : monnyy_r@yahoo.com blessings, Monica Ybarra

"In verbally defaming a ministry you risk speaking against an area in which the Holy Spirit is at work. I know that you do not respect Mosaic, but I would ask that you consider the possibility that the Holy Spirit is at work within the Mosaic community. You may not agree with methods, ideologies or formats, but as you trash this community, you speak against the very Spirit of God at work."

I dont get it. So Erwin is allowed to defame minstries and that is okay? He can belittle pastors and the Christian church in general and that is just hunky dory? But once you speak against his books and podcasts, you are going against the "spirit of God at work?" How ridiculous.

Isn't it interesting that on Wikipedia Erwin is credited for the following:

"McManus was employed in the late 1980s and early 1990s by the Southern Baptist Convention (Home Mission Board) to facilitate struggling churches in replacing "outdated" stagnant leadership teams with "younger" and "fresher" thinkers.

Seems like he has just systematically applied this learned behavior over the past decade to replace what he felt was "outdated stagnant leadership" at his own church. The catch? He ended up being the beneficiary of such.

Something that many do not talk about is Erwin's dislike for "foreign missions". When he says, "Mission is why the church exists." he is not referring to Matthew 28: 18-20.

Notice he does not say "missions"? That one little letter "s" being dropped has major meaning to McManus. He sees foreign missions as a threat to growing his church. His purpose is to grow the numbers, thus the tithe of his church. Erwin is comfortable with the idea of "short term" missions because those dedicated members will return shortly to their tithe of his church. Erwin believes far too much money is spent overseas.

Before the Mosaic loyal start defending his intentional emphasis on the "mission" of growing Mosaic’s tithe over foreign "missions", with their statements that Mosaic has more missionaries then most other churches; do some checking.

Many of the missionaries and countries that Mosaic says they have missionaries in are no longer with Mosaic. Nearly every single long-term missionary unit that was sent out in the surge of the 80's & early 90's have quietly left Mosaic.

And that is just fine with Mr. McManus and his local "mission" mentality.

Whoa! Anonymous, I think you are way off on this one. Did you or anyone else ever hear Erwin say that he does not like OVERSEAS missions? Your whole comment is entirely false. Mosaic does support missions. At one time Mosaic even had Joyce Chao as a full time liason between the church and the numerous overseas workers. This was a full time position. Also, i know for a fact that Mosaic was supporting Paul Richardson and his family financially in Indonesia. I think your comment about keeping people here for tithing purposes is way off. I agree with most of what MOP is trying to do. However, if you want to be taken seriously, slanderous comments like this will just give Mosaic members a good reason to ignore all the "sound" questions being brought forth on this site.

"Whoa! Anonymous, I think you are way off on this one. Did you or anyone else ever hear Erwin say that he does not like OVERSEAS missions? Your whole comment is entirely false. Mosaic does support missions. At one time Mosaic even had Joyce Chao as a full time liason between the church and the numerous overseas workers. This was a full time position. Also, i know for a fact that Mosaic was supporting Paul Richardson and his family financially in Indonesia. I think your comment about keeping people here for tithing purposes is way off. I agree with most of what MOP is trying to do. However, if you want to be taken seriously, slanderous comments like this will just give Mosaic members a good reason to ignore all the "sound" questions being brought forth on this site.

T.C.

Actually, yes I have heard, first hand, Erwin complain about the excessive amount that foreign missions costs. Erwin just doesn't feel that missionaries are effective and/or relevant. Yes, Mosaic, since it inherited a mission’s emphasis from The Church on Brady, does have a foreign missions emphasis, however that does not mean that Erwin likes it. Let’s go back to my original point: “Mission is why the church exists.” Why doesn’t he write, state and promote, “MissionS is why the church exists.”? It’s all semantics with McManus.

Concerning Joyce Chao, she inherited that role from Carol Davis after Erwin ousted Carol from Mosaic. No, Mosaic did not financially support the Richarsons. They were appointed through the International Mission Board of the Southern Baptist Convention, who supports all of their appointed missionaries.

You are dealing in what you have heard others say about this situation, I am reporting my first hand experiences.

As for “slanderous”: a malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report: a slander against his good name.

I've read a good amount of these post. The reason I didn't read it all is because it makes me physically feel sick seeing two sets of leadership argue. It's like a child that loves both of their divorce parents that seem to argue and not change.

Let's assume that everything on this Mosaic of Pain website was true. Let's assume that there is an Abuse of: Power, God's Word, and Finance. It really doesn't bother me.

Regarding the Abuse of Power. It's a sad truth, but many Christian just don't have much character. If you know somebody who attends seminary school, ask them this question. How many students in your classroom actually practice the second greatest commandment, "Love your neighbor as yourself?"

Regarding the Abuse of God's Word. I still haven't met two Christians that agree 100% on the interpretation of the bible. I figure as long as their core value is not going to end up to be an cult, their okay. Don't spend 99% of your time arguing with somebody who interprets 1% percent of the bible differently.

Regarding the Abuse of Finance. As long as the money is used for ministry and not for personal gain, I'm okay with it.

Let me tell you what really bothers me. Let me ask you this question. Imagine after you attended a church service, and somebody asked you what you thought of the service? How would you answer them?

Would you say you were entertained, you had good fellowship, or maybe you enjoyed the teaching?

Or would you say that after the service; somehow you became more in love with God. That you have a greater desire to seek God. The greatest commandment is to love God with all of our heart, mind, soul, and strength. If any church is not causing you to love God more, then there's a problem.

"I've read a good amount of these post. The reason I didn't read it all is because it makes me physically feel sick seeing two sets of leadership argue. It's like a child that loves both of their divorce parents that seem to argue and not change.

What if one of the posts you did not read reported something about what you said would be a problem, what would you do then? Also, you say none of this bothers you, but yet you say it makes you physically sick?

You also write something about "two leadership groups". That is not what MOP is about. There are not two leadership groups...it is about a number of God's people that were treated harshly. Some of them are requesting that the treatment from the one leadership group, that is in position, to stop acting in such a way.

I have been a regular attender at Mosaic for quite sometime now and I am ready to make a change. I love Mosaic's passion for the lost but I am looking for a church that has that passion but also has the courage to preach the truth. Can someone please make some recommendations.

It appears that Mosaic members know about Mop and many agree that Erwin is not the most humble guy around. And they think the theology may be off, and the finances are in question. But what I'm hearing in conversations and in posts is that the current members stick around for their friends and their life groups. And not the rumored free dominoes. Just a thought

It appears that Mosaic members know about Mop and many agree that Erwin is not the most humble guy around. And they think the theology may be off, and the finances are in question. But what I'm hearing in conversations and in posts is that the current members stick around for their friends and their life groups. And not the rumored free dominoes.Just a thought

So what you are saying is, the many would rather stay with the status quo, rather then rock the boat and ask questions or challenge the powers that be?

I have been a regular attender at Mosaic for quite sometime now and I am ready to make a change. I love Mosaic's passion for the lost but I am looking for a church that has that passion but also has the courage to preach the truth. Can someone please make some recommendations.

Kat

Kat, how about you seize your God given right, and responsibility to address the problems there at Mosaic?

Kat,Some excellent churches in the area are Gateway Community Church in Alhambra, Christian Assembly in Eagle Rock, Lake Avenue in Pasadena and Whittier Area Community Church in Whittier to name a few. You may bump into an old friend. Mop member

I have brought up the issue with an elder and a few people on paid staff. The overall consensus is that the leadership believes that they are following God's vision for them and that if I didn't believe in the vision, there were many other churches that can fill my need. Although it sounds harsh, they were actually very nice about it. I know a few others who have had "the talk" with someone in leadership and the outcome is always the same. I wish them the best and I will remain friends with a lot of people but I feel it is something I must do. It is a painful thing I must do and it is always hard making "new friends" at a new church but I have a deep sense of peace that I am doing the right thing.

Any more recommendations for churches to checkout? How about LA Dream Center? Hollywood Pres? Oasis on Wilshire Blvd?

“That is not what MOP is about, it is about a number of God's people that were treated harshly. Some of them are requesting that the treatment from the one leadership group, that is in position, to stop acting in such a way.”

I understand that there are many of God’s people that were treated harshly. I understand Matthew 18:15-17 states that ultimately the church needs to be notified of the harsh treatment. The thing I don’t understand is why is MOP not only notifying the church, but also notifying the whole wide world. Imagine if CNN news did a story on Mosaic church and Mosiacofpain.com.

If you personally asked me about what I thought of Mosaic church… I would tell you that I disagree with 80% of the way worship is done, I don't like 50% of the multimedia experience, and I’m not moved by 90% of the messages. I personally don’t know the pastor, but the stuff I read about him I don’t like him.

If you ask me what I thought of mosaicofpain.com….... I would tell you I disagree with your approach. Although your intentions are good, your material can end up on Los Angeles Times or CNN. Do you remember the story of David? Do you remember what David did after Saul sinned and was rejected by God as king. David would not touch Saul. Even after David was anointed and he knew he was going to be the future king after Saul, David still would not touch Saul, and still consider Saul the anointed of the Lord.

My personal Christian background including seeing a pastor that turned the congregation into an occult, a pastor who committed adultery, and a pastor who was charged with rape. So when I originally wrote “none of this bothers me” it’s because I’ve seen so much in my lifetime. I’ve been hurt and disappointed many times by Christians, just like many of MOP members have been.

If these accusations about the pastor is true, he needs to be removed. However, I JUST BELIEVE THAT GOD DOESN’T NEED MOSAICOFPAIN.COM HELP IN REMOVING THE PASTOR, GOD IS WELL CAPABLE OF DOING IT ON HIS OWN.

"It had been raining for days and days, and a terrible flood had come over the land. The waters rose so high that one man was forced to climb onto the roof of his house.

As the waters rose higher and higher, a man in a rowboat appeared, and told him to get in. "No," replied the man on the roof. "I have faith in the Lord; the Lord will save me." So the man in the rowboat went away. The man on the roof prayed for God to save him.

The waters rose higher and higher, and suddenly a speedboat appeared. "Climb in!" shouted a man in the boat. "No," replied the man on the roof. "I have faith in the Lord; the Lord will save me." So the man in the speedboat went away. The man on the roof prayed for God to save him.

The waters continued to rise. A helicopter appeared and over the loudspeaker, the pilot announced he would lower a rope to the man on the roof. "No," replied the man on the roof. "I have faith in the Lord; the Lord will save me." So the helicopter went away. The man on the roof prayed for God to save him.

The waters rose higher and higher, and eventually they rose so high that the man on the roof was washed away, and alas, the poor man drowned.

Upon arriving in heaven, the man marched straight over to God. "Heavenly Father," he said, "I had faith in you, I prayed to you to save me, and yet you did nothing. Why?" God gave him a puzzled look, and replied "I sent you two boats and a helicopter, what more did you expect?"

It seems God is using MOP as the rowboat. Who knows what he's going to do with the speedboat and helicopter.Just a thought

I would like to address the comments left by anonymous on June 20, 2007 9:35 AM

Anonymous,

It is far too easy to sit behind a mask of "anonymity" and accuse others, who have publicly identified themselves, of not following the biblical directive given in Matthew 18:15-17 but if you had actually read through the 5 pages worth of commentary here at MOP you would have already known that this approach was tried, not just once but repeatedly; all to no avail.

How can you bring such matters to the attention of a congregation if the LEADERS of that congregation use fear and intimidation to silence their critics?

As for the now classic "touch not thine anointed" defense, this passage of scripture is a commonly used defense employed by those involved in spiritual abuse. In this case, if you really think about it, is a silly defense: no one here at MOP is threatening to "physically harm" anyone in leadership at Mosaic. When David said he wouldn't touch Saul because he was "God's anointed", he meant he wasn't going to kill him!

By the way, CNN has already done a favorable piece on Mosaic but I quess it's alright with you if the secular media hands out good publicity but not bad.

Anonymous, I agree with you that God is perfectly capable of removing bad leaders on His own. I would like to remind you though that most of the time God uses people to accomplish His will. If it wasn't for the courage and convictions of people who were willing to speak out against such leaders, there would be far too many child molestors, rapists, embezzlers, tax evaders, con artists, cult leaders, etc. in this world who would still be getting away with abusing the flock of Christ because people were too afraid to confront the truth.

If it takes the attention of CNN, the L.A. Times or some other media heavy weight to finally get the attention of the Mosaic leadership, then what does that have to say to about them?

To the person who wrote the joke regarding the man, God, two boats, and the helicopter….. did you forget something? The person who died in the story was a moron. A Christian, but a moron also. Anyway, I hate it when that story is told with a "man" as the moron, how come the moron is never a female?

TO YVONNE,HERE IS MY REPLY. I WILL WRITE MINE IN CAPS JUST TO DISTINGUISH MY WRITING AND YOUR WRITING.

“It is far too easy to sit behind a mask of "anonymity" and accuse others, who have publicly identified themselves, of not following the biblical directive given in Matthew 18:15-17”

YOU DON’T NEED TO KNOW WHO I AM. ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW IS: I HIGHLY RESPECT YOU, CARE FOR YOU DEARLY, AND LOVE YOU UNCONDITIONALLY. IF I HAD TO VOTE RIGHT NOW FOR A LEAD PASTOR AT MOSAIC, I WOULD PROBABLY VOTE FOR YOUR FATHER.

“but if you had actually read through the 5 pages worth of commentary here at MOP you would have already known that this approach was tried, not just once but repeatedly; all to no avail.”

I READ THAT PART. MY INTERPRETATION OF THE BIBLE VERSE ENDS AT “TELLING THE CHURCH.” THEREFORE, AFTER YOU TOLD THE CHURCH WE JUST TRUST IN GOD THAT HE WILL TAKE CARE OF THE REST.

“How can you bring such matters to the attention of a congregation if the LEADERS of that congregation use fear and intimidation to silence their critics?”

I HAVE A HARD TIME BELIEVING THAT A HAND FULL OF LEADERS CAN INTIMATE A CONGREGATION OF SEVERAL THOUSAND.

“As for the now classic "touch not thine anointed" defense, this passage of scripture is a commonly used defense employed by those involved in spiritual abuse. In this case, if you really think about it, is a silly defense: no one here at MOP is threatening to "physically harm" anyone in leadership at Mosaic. When David said he wouldn't touch Saul because he was "God's anointed", he meant he wasn't going to kill him! “

INTERESTING INTERPRETATION…… 2 SAMUEL 1: 11-16 STATED THAT DAVID MOURNED, WEPT, AND FASTED AFTER SAUL DIED. IT ALSO STATED THAT DAVID HAD THE PERSON WHO CLAIMED HE KILLED SAUL STRUCK DOWN BECAUSE HE KILLED THE LORD’S ANOINTED.

“If it takes the attention of CNN, the L.A. Times or some other media heavy weight to finally get the attention of the Mosaic leadership, then what does that have to say to about them? “

YVONNE, IT APPEARS THAT OUR INTERPRETATION OF THE BIBLE DIFFERS IN THIS. I THINK ONCE THE CHURCH IS TOLD ABOUT THE SIN, WE STOP THERE. WE DON’T NEED TO TELL THE WHOLE WIDE WORLD.

I HAD A FRIEND THAT GOT HIS GIRLFRIEND PREGNANT. HE TOLD ME THAT HE WAS GOING TO MARRY HER BECAUSE HE GOT HER PREGNANT. I TOLD HIM THAT HE WAS WRONG FOR MARRY HER JUST BECAUSE SHE WAS PREGNANT. I TOLD HIM THAT IF HE WAS TO MARRY HER, IT HAD TO BE BECAUSE HE LOVED HER. AFTER SEVERAL MONTHS, HE TOLD ME THAT HE WAS GOING TO MARRY HER BECAUSE HE LOVED HER. AT THAT POINT, I SUPPORTED THE MARRIAGE.

YVONNE, IF YOU REALLY FEEL THAT GOD IS CALLING YOU AND MOP TO DO THIS, THEN YOU REALLY GOT TO PURSUE IT. (I PERSONALLY AM AGAINST MOP BECAUSE OF MY INTERPRETATION OF THE BIBLE, BUT I COULD BE TOTALLY WRONG.) EVEN IRWIN STATED SEVERAL WEEKS AGO THAT IT IS WRONG TO NOT DO SOMETHING WHEN YOU KNOW YOU SHOULD.

HERE’S A THOUGHT...PUT A BIG SIGN (ATTACHED TO A CAR SO IT’S LEGAL) THAT SAYS, “MOSAICOFPAIN.COM”. YOU SHOULD DO THIS BEFORE CHURCH SERVICE, THAT WAY ALL THE CHURCH MEMBERS COULD SEE THE SIGN. THE NAME MOSAICOFPAIN.COM IS CLEVER. IT’S VERY EASY TO REMEMBER. ALSO, THE NAME IS CATCHY; IT MAKES A PERSON REALLY WANT TO KNOW WHAT IS ON IT. I BELIEVE THAT IF YOU DO THIS, THE LEADERSHIP WILL HAVE TO ADDRESS THIS ISSUE IN FRONT OF THE WHOLE CONGREGATION. ALSO, I HOPE THAT THE ISSUE WILL BE SOLVED BEFORE IT GETS TO CNN OR LOS ANGELES TIMES.

YVONEE, YOU WILL EVENTUALLY FIND OUT WHO I AM. HOWEVER, RIGHT NOW IS NOT THE RIGHT TIME. JUST AS DARTH VADAR WAITED FOR THE RIGHT TIME TO REVEAL HIS IDENTITY, YOU WILL HAVE TO WAIT ALSO. FOR NOW, LET’S JUST REMEMBER TO LOVE THE LORD THE GOD WITH ALL THE HEART, MIND, SOUL AND STRENGTH, AND LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.

Next, I would like to say to Darth Vadar, you are consistent. Incorrect in your thinking, but consistent. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the entire world knowing about all of this. Where, please tell me, where in the Bible does it say that as Christians we should hide our sins or shortcomings?

Nowhere. That is "religiosity" in its purest form. I am not calling you a "religious" person, rather that type of thinking - by the way it is too often taught from the pulpit to keep ITS sin private.

Who cares if CNN, CBS, PBS, ABC, CBS, BBC, ETC.., finds out that a pastor and some of his leaders do not truly care for their flock. Oh my! What a shock that would be to the world! Old news DV, old news. Only Jesus can love His people and Shepard them the way they need.

And, oh yes a FEW can manipulate and intimidate the masses, need I go through the list? It happens all the time…as a matter of fact. There is this church of a few thousand in Los Angeles that it is happening to right now. One charismatic leader and the few leaders that choose to follow his leadership style are doing as we speak.

BTW, I completely agree with you on the “man” in the roof top thingy…geesh! Ladies can miss God's provision, too. Fortunately for us Yvonne isn't one of those!

Darth,Sometimes men, women and churches can be moronic. Being exposed to CNN is nothing compared to God's discipline. I'm grateful that he gives us so many chances to get it right. But some congregations stiffen that neck a little to long and then snap! But I know your aware of this oh mysterious one.Just a Thought

INTERESTING INTERPRETATION…… 2 SAMUEL 1: 11-16 STATED THAT DAVID MOURNED, WEPT, AND FASTED AFTER SAUL DIED. IT ALSO STATED THAT DAVID HAD THE PERSON WHO CLAIMED HE KILLED SAUL STRUCK DOWN BECAUSE HE KILLED THE LORD’S ANOINTED.

Could you explain to me what your point is about this scripture? I happen to agree with David's actions so I don't know what you're trying to say. It was wrong to "kill" Saul.

"Killing" is wrong. Nobody here is even thinking of "killing" anyone, we're just airing our legitimate grievnaces against a leadership group for the offenses that leadership has committed. There is nothing wrong with that.

Have you considered what happened between the apostle Paul and the apostle Peter in Galatians 2:11-14?Not only did Peter admonish Paul for his wrong actions but he did so both "to his face" and "in the presence of all." I ask you, if the apostle Peter was not above being held accountable by another leader, than why is it wrong to expect such accountability from the leadership of Mosaic?

DV, your "identity" is not important to me. I know it must be important to you however or else you wouldn't have mentioned it again. It is my personal belief that if I'm going to make a strong statement, I'm going to "own" that statement (take personal responsibility for my words) and sign my name to it. Why? Because this way I am holding myself up to the accountability of all those who read my words. Think about it, if you knew your words might one day show up on the front page of the Los Angeles Times, wouldn't you be a whole lot more careful about what you write?

Also, and this is just my opinion, I can't help but feel suspicious of people who post anonymously. I mean, if a person feels so strongly about an issue that they are compelled to respond, then why does that person take the precaution of posting "anonymously?" I can't help but think it's an effort to avoid the possibility of being held legally accountable for their words, more like a "drive by" tirade intended to hurt the feelings of the intended target rather an attempt at legitimate debate.

DV, I have written about the financial "irregularities" going on with Awaken. Since these issues involve independent charities outside the authority of "the church" (for example the Los Angeles Mission and Neo Underground Railroad) I feel it is highly appropriate to hold these issues up to public scrutiny. Even the issues involving the abuse of doctrine and authority should be made public because these issues affect more than just those who are currently attending Mosaic.

DV, your last paragraph regarding "revealing your identity" to me almost sounds like a threat. I've seen Star Wars many times and I remember that the scene where Darth Vader reveals himself to Luke is not exactly a pleasant experience for Luke. As for me, my trust is in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Yvonne

For the record: My father has never desired to be the lead pastor of the Church on Brady or Mosaic. Never.

Three strikes and you might be out. You wrote: "My personal Christian background including seeing a pastor that turned the congregation into an occult[sic], a pastor who committed adultery, and a pastor who was charged with rape. So when I originally wrote “none of this bothers me” it’s because I’ve seen so much in my lifetime."

Maybe some of that could have been stopped if there was a MOP calling attention to those warning signs that were obviously ignored?