I hope we can change the government before it fails. When it fails there will be anarchy till a new government can be established, with much
hardship/killings/etc. IMO its easier to fix something rather than replace it, but since we have given the PTB total reign it may be too
difficult...who knows?

Communism--Socialism--Capitalism

communism everyhting is public, socialism some private and some public property, capitalism almost everything is private property(including the
government itself).

America and europe have become state capitalists which is the most decadent stage of capitalism, which is the most decadent form of elitism. Its all
about me, never you....and lots of materialism and debt!

I think the mainstream version of socialism is fraudently skewed to look identical to communism, aka too far left. I do NOT approve of marxism
anymore than I approve of leveraged buyout, state capitalism or just plain capitalism for that matter.

Extremes are always bad because they focus on the needs of the few rather than the needs of the many.

I hope we can change the government before it fails. When it fails there will be anarchy till a new government can be established, with much
hardship/killings/etc. IMO its easier to fix something rather than replace it, but since we have given the PTB total reign it may be too
difficult...who knows?

What makes you think anarchy will be worse than what we have now? If you're really a socialist, I don't understand how you can feel so warm and
fuzzy about the state.

Unless you're just a statist idealist who is simply a soi-disant socialist?

Not trying to offend you just wondering why you trust the govt so much.

communism everyhting is public, socialism some private and some public property, capitalism almost everything is private property(including the
government itself).

You are a ``socialist `` right? Can you please be more explicit about your meaning of socialism? The way I understand it is that socialism is the
collectivization of the means of production. A socialist ``nation`` would imply that all of the means of productions which exist within its borders
would have to be collectivized, or nationalized, does that fit with your meaning of socialism?

America and europe have become state capitalists which is the most decadent stage of capitalism, which is the most decadent form of elitism. Its all
about me, never you....and lots of materialism and debt!

There is no such thing as ``state capitalism``. The two terms, as I understand them, are incompatible. the U.S and EU are heavy interventionist
economies at best.

What makes you think anarchy will be worse than what we have now? If you're really a socialist, I don't understand how you can feel so warm and fuzzy
about the state.

Unless you're just a statist idealist who is simply a soi-disant socialist?

Because any government is better than no government. At the end of the day someone always needs to make decisions and even wrong decisions are
usually better than no decisions.

Not trying to offend you just wondering why you trust the govt so much.

I do not trust any government for the sake of being called a government. I specifically do not trust a capitalist government that is a registered
corporation in the state of delaware.

You are a ``socialist `` right? Can you please be more explicit about your meaning of socialism? The way I understand it is that socialism is the
collectivization of the means of production. A socialist ``nation`` would imply that all of the means of productions which exist within its borders
would have to be collectivized, or nationalized, does that fit with your meaning of socialism?

The means of production should be nationalised; banking, oil and gas exploration/production, schools, museums, parks, military, electricity,
telephone, mass transportation, water and anything else that is considered a necessity and used by most people. Those things are not privileges to
make a buck off imo!

Everything ELSE can and should be private. I am against mass production and automation, pro-protectionism to USA economy. I think its time
factories return to the usa and europe. and tell the bankers to go screw themselves since "we" will have the money supply. People used to take pride
in hand made merchandise and its time to repeat that. Less materialism=better quality+higher wages

There is no such thing as ``state capitalism``. The two terms, as I understand them, are incompatible. the U.S and EU are heavy interventionist
economies at best.

You understand wrong friend! There is no conflict but it sounds funny at first....I know. Look at the wikipedia article to find out the definition
and it should ALL make sense.

The means of production should be nationalised; banking, oil and gas exploration/production, schools, museums, parks, military, electricity,
telephone, mass transportation, water and anything else that is considered a necessity and used by most people. Those things are not privileges to
make a buck off imo!

Just some things should be nationalized? Things that you think people need, basically just expanding state provided services, no?

Everything ELSE can and should be private. I am against mass production and automation, pro-protectionism to USA economy. I think its time factories
return to the usa and europe. and tell the bankers to go screw themselves since "we" will have the money supply. People used to take pride in hand
made merchandise and its time to repeat that. Less materialism=better quality+higher wages

How would you ``return`` factories to the U.S? ``"we" will have the money supply`` You mean the govt will have control of the money supply? Not us,
since we have no control over the govt. With less technology to make goods, the more hours people will have to work. Higher wages indeed, but also
higher priced goods, meaning the poor and unfortunate won't be able to afford much. Does that sound like a fair trade off in your opinion?

ETA: Not saying that high wages are bad, just saying that high wages without tech would make prices skyrocket, but technology allows employers pay
higher wages while keeping prices low.

You understand wrong friend! There is no conflict but it sounds funny at first....I know. Look at the wikipedia article to find out the definition and
it should ALL make sense.

Just some things should be nationalized? Things that you think people need, basically just expanding state provided services, no?

Yes and yes.

How would you ``return`` factories to the U.S? ``"we" will have the money supply``

I would put high tariffs on all american brand products produced overseas. Then I would put smaller tariffs on chineese and russian brand merchandise
imported into the usa and europe. The whole idea is not to stop trade between nations, but to make it as balanced and fair as possible.

Protectionism is necessary and only a global capitalist would think otherwise. I am not necessarily against globalism as such, I am against
unbalanced trade and a capitalist world order.

You mean the govt will have control of the money supply? Not us, since we have no control over the govt.

First of all I would appreciate if you would organise your thoughts into seperate paragraphs, since it would make replying much easier. Now that we
got that out of the way I will proceed debunking your nonsense...

Who is the government and who is us??? Why do we not control the government?

With less technology to make goods, the more hours people will have to work. Higher wages indeed, but also higher priced goods, meaning the poor and
unfortunate won't be able to afford much. Does that sound like a fair trade off in your opinion?

A certain amount of technology is necessary, but extensive automation is not. Millions of people(consumers are workers and vice-versa) have lost
their skilled jobs to robots and computers. The reason for this, in case it is not obvious, is to cut down on labor costs so the company can show a
higher bottom-line, which means more dividends/stock splits/higher stock price.

The economy is tailored around wall street investors and/or private investors. It is NOT tailored around workers and/or unions. Socialism and
communism favors the latter! Higher wages means people will have more to spend, more jobs, less unemployment payments by the state/federal
government, more taxes collected, etc.

WIN-WIN all around. With your views, employer(s) wants to pocket everything and pay out the least, its LOSE-LOSE for the economy.

State capitalism has various different meanings, but is usually described as a society wherein the productive forces are controlled and directed by
the state in a capitalist manner, even if such a society calls itself socialist.[1] Corporatized government agencies and states that own controlling
shares of publicly listed firms, thus acting as a capitalist itself, are two examples of state capitalism. State capitalism has also come to refer to
an economic system where the means of production are privately owned and the state exerts considerable control over the allocation of credit and
investment. State capitalism is a term that is also used (sometimes interchangeably with state monopoly capitalism) to describe a system where the
state is intervening in the markets to protect and advance the interests of Big Business. This practice is often claimed to be in sharp contrast with
the ideals of both socialism and laissez-faire capitalism.[2]

Its probably not the best article you can find on the topic but at least it goes over the basics and you can research the rest on your own. I wish I
had unlimited time, but unfortunately I do not!

I would put high tariffs on all american brand products produced overseas. Then I would put smaller tariffs on chineese and russian brand merchandise
imported into the usa and europe. The whole idea is not to stop trade between nations, but to make it as balanced and fair as possible. Protectionism
is necessary and only a global capitalist would think otherwise. I am not necessarily against globalism as such, I am against unbalanced trade and a
capitalist world order.

Somehow this will magically make factories reopen in the U.S? The only reason the U.S has sustained trade and current account deficits for so many
years is because of government intervention, via the fed and other central banks.

1st: The fed promotes unsustainable consumption by keeping interest rates low, which has helped U.S citizens borrow in order to buy foreign goods.

2nd: This excessive money creation has also prevented prices from dropping relative to Chinese prices, which has prevented the Chinese from having
greater purchasing power in order to buy U.S goods.

Trade quotas, tariffs, domestic tax policies, etc all have zero effect on trade. Trade is determined by monetary flows, but because monetary flows
have been distorted because of these government interventions trade is unbalanced.

Even if the U.S had high tariffs, trade quotas, lax business taxes and regulations, while the rest of the world practiced free trade, but had
extremely high business taxes and a ton of regulations, the trade balance would stay the same, due to government intervention in monetary flows.

First of all I would appreciate if you would organise your thoughts into seperate paragraphs, since it would make replying much easier. Now that we
got that out of the way I will proceed debunking your nonsense...

O.k.

Who is the government and who is us??? Why do we not control the government?

The govt isn't a person, it's a criminal institution that has a territorial monopoly on force and law, it maintains its monopoly through violence,
extortion and slavery. I'm not too sure why you would want to be associated with an institution like that.

A certain amount of technology is necessary, but extensive automation is not. Millions of people(consumers are workers and vice-versa) have lost their
skilled jobs to robots and computers. The reason for this, in case it is not obvious, is to cut down on labor costs so the company can show a higher
bottom-line, which means more dividends/stock splits/higher stock price.

Going by that logic no one should be driving cars, since the car made the charioteer lose his job. Technology frees up workers to attempt more
productive economic ventures bringing about longer term efficiency and prosperity. In the immediate sense you could say that it increases
unemployment, but in an indirect sense, there is an increase in employment because of lower marginal costs.

The economy is tailored around wall street investors and/or private investors. It is NOT tailored around workers and/or unions. Socialism and
communism favors the latter! Higher wages means people will have more to spend, more jobs, less unemployment payments by the state/federal government,
more taxes collected, etc.

In order for the state to provide the services you want taxes would need to be awfully high, meaning people ``won't`` have much money to spend and
since wages would be artificially high goods and services would be artificially high too. How would anyone be able to afford anything?

WIN-WIN all around. With your views, employer(s) wants to pocket everything and pay out the least, its LOSE-LOSE for the economy.

The employee wants to make money, the employer wants to make money too, he also wants to keep his company afloat. Employers must figure out the right
balance of spending, on total costs, average total costs, average variable costs, and their fixed costs. It's all part of the delicate operation of
running a business. It's not exploitation, companies must make a profit or they go bankrupt.

State capitalism

It's funny that the wikipage you linked to primarily focuses on capitalism even though it explicitly states that the cause of ``state capitalism`` is
state intervention. The state creates the monopoly, initiating state capitalism. Statism seems to be the problem to me, technically though, wouldn't
your version of socialism be considered state socialism?

The only reason the U.S has sustained trade and current account deficits for so many years is because of government intervention, via the fed
and other central banks.

Actually the government is a registered corporation in the state of delaware. How many times does this need repeating to be believed? Check out file
number 2193946 with department of state. It was incorporated 04/19/1989 and is listed as "UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, INC".

1st: The fed promotes unsustainable consumption by keeping interest rates low, which has helped U.S citizens borrow in order to buy foreign
goods.

Wall street is all about riding the bull market STARTING FROM THE BEAR MARKET...when prices are rock bottom. Boom-Bust helps consolidate wealth for
savvy speculators. With no bubbles how can you take advantage? Think about it!

2nd: This excessive money creation has also prevented prices from dropping relative to Chinese prices, which has prevented the Chinese from
having greater purchasing power in order to buy U.S goods.

Yes inflation causes prices to stay high since money loses its value in relation to goods and services.

I can't speak about all the central banks but the ECB keeps the Euro relatively stable and high compared to the USA Dollar. The current echange rate
is about $1.50 to 1 Euro. This is bad for exporting european goods and great for importing american goods.

Trade quotas, tariffs, domestic tax policies, etc all have zero effect on trade. Trade is determined by monetary flows, but because monetary
flows have been distorted because of these government interventions trade is unbalanced.

WRONG! Exchange rates is only one aspect of world trade, the rest is trade quotas and tarriffs.

Even if the U.S had high tariffs, trade quotas, lax business taxes and regulations, while the rest of the world practiced free trade, but had
extremely high business taxes and a ton of regulations, the trade balance would stay the same, due to government intervention in monetary
flows.

It seems as though you are desperate to cling to your "monetary flows" theory as THE EVERYTHING THEORY!

And there is no such thing as balanced free trade because developed economies always take advantage of developing economies. Its called imperialism.
Imperialism is not just armies/navies attacking foreign lands, its all about exploiting their resources.

The govt isn't a person, it's a criminal institution that has a territorial monopoly on force and law, it maintains its monopoly through violence,
extortion and slavery. I'm not too sure why you would want to be associated with an institution like that.

So all governments are criminal institutions according to you or is it just the american government? What the mexican and guatemalan governments?

I never cease to be amazed by the libertarian-anarchy mentality. Its like trying to have a basketball game without any refeeres. If the government
is bad you fix it, not dish it away.

Going by that logic no one should be driving cars, since the car made the charioteer lose his job. Technology frees up workers to attempt more
productive economic ventures bringing about longer term efficiency and prosperity. In the immediate sense you could say that it increases
unemployment, but in an indirect sense, there is an increase in employment because of lower marginal costs.

Absolute BS and you know it!

In order for the state to provide the services you want taxes would need to be awfully high, meaning people ``won't`` have much money to spend and
since wages would be artificially high goods and services would be artificially high too. How would anyone be able to afford anything?

Well you can't collect taxes from someone making $7.25 an hour, neither can you collect taxes from someone on welfare/disability/unemployment. More
jobs overseas and over-automation means more people go on unemployment and the state pays them, not the other way around.

The rich don't pay that many taxes anyway. They make up 5-10 percent of americans and ship their money to tax heavens or find some other loopholes to
take advantage of. The middle class pays the bulk of the taxes in dollar amount.

The employee wants to make money, the employer wants to make money too, he also wants to keep his company afloat. Employers must figure out the right
balance of spending, on total costs, average total costs, average variable costs, and their fixed costs. It's all part of the delicate operation of
running a business. It's not exploitation, companies must make a profit or they go bankrupt.

Its not about avoiding bankruptcy with capitalism, its about greed and being a millionare. The american dream!

It's funny that the wikipage you linked to primarily focuses on capitalism even though it explicitly states that the cause of ``state capitalism`` is
state intervention. The state creates the monopoly, initiating state capitalism. Statism seems to be the problem to me, technically though, wouldn't
your version of socialism be considered state socialism?

edit on 2-7-2011 by Rockdisjoint because: (no reason given)

Yes I am for state socialism, not state capitalism. When america becomes a sovereign nation once again(hopefully) it will work for the people.
Business is great and you need money to survive but artificial personas should have less privileges than natural personas. Corporations are anonymous
shells usually related to business ventures.

Actually the government is a registered corporation in the state of delaware. How many times does this need repeating to be believed? Check out file
number 2193946 with department of state. It was incorporated 04/19/1989 and is listed as "UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, INC".

I don't see what any of that has to do with what we're talking about, but yes the U.S is a corporation -- a bankrupt one at that.

Wall street is all about riding the bull market STARTING FROM THE BEAR MARKET...when prices are rock bottom. Boom-Bust helps consolidate wealth for
savvy speculators. With no bubbles how can you take advantage? Think about it!

Where do you think the WallStreeters get the money from? The Fed, and who created the Fed? The Govt.

WRONG! Exchange rates is only one aspect of world trade, the rest is trade quotas and tarriffs.

No, I am not wrong you're just denying history, just look at the effects of previous tariffs. Tariffs would do nothing to balance trade, they will
only make the cost of living increase.

It seems as though you are desperate to cling to your "monetary flows" theory as THE EVERYTHING THEORY!

It's not just a theory, it is pretty self-evident. If Chinese citizens could afford to buy our goods we could manufacture and sell to them to Chinese
citizens.

And there is no such thing as balanced free trade because developed economies always take advantage of developing economies. Its called imperialism.
Imperialism is not just armies/navies attacking foreign lands, its all about exploiting their resources.

But capitalism isn't a zero-sum game, when two parties trade they both benefit. The only reason the average Chinese person isn't rewarded for his/her
work is because of their govt, not free trade. I'm also assuming you're talking about their labor, you could be talking about other resources though.
If so please state them.

So all governments are criminal institutions according to you or is it just the american government? What the mexican and guatemalan governments?

All of them. Govts by their definition are criminal and violent, you can not claim a monopoly on something [especially force] and still claim to
support natural rights.

I never cease to be amazed by the libertarian-anarchy mentality. Its like trying to have a basketball game without any refeeres. If the government is
bad you fix it, not dish it away.

Huh? Me and my friends play basketball without referees all the time, and we have a lot of fun doing it. You can't fix the govt, people have been
trying to fix govt for thousands of years, people that still think fixing the govt is possible are obviously insane. Your entire post consist of
problems created by the state and your only solution to these problems is more statism, because you think your statism would be better than their
statism.

Well you can't collect taxes from someone making $7.25 an hour, neither can you collect taxes from someone on welfare/disability/unemployment. More
jobs overseas and over-automation means more people go on unemployment and the state pays them, not the other way around.

The rich don't pay that many taxes anyway. They make up 5-10 percent of americans and ship their money to tax heavens or find some other loopholes to
take advantage of. The middle class pays the bulk of the taxes in dollar amount.

I'm not really understanding what you're saying here. How would the state provide the services if it didn't collect taxes?

Its not about avoiding bankruptcy with capitalism, its about greed and being a millionare. The american dream!

Is that is why all those small businesses went out of business? 60% of the jobs that were lost in this depression were in the small business sector,
those greedy capitalist that wanted to live the American dream employed a majority of the people in this country. That doesn't seem selfish at all to
me.

Yes I am for state socialism

State socialism is a contradiction in terms, state ownership is not societal ownership. If one man -- the president controls the means of production,
that isn't the same as the community owning the means of production. Where would your utopia emerge?

Corporations are anonymous shells usually related to business ventures.

And who creates these corporations? The state -- corporations by definition are just extensions of the state. Strike the root, not just one of the
many branches.

Actually the government is a registered corporation in the state of delaware. How many times does this need repeating to be believed? Check out file
number 2193946 with department of state. It was incorporated 04/19/1989 and is listed as "UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, INC".

I don't see what any of that has to do with what we're talking about, but yes the U.S is a corporation -- a bankrupt one at that.

It more-or-less proves that USA is being run as a private and for-profit corporation rather than a nation of sovereigns. The 14 trillion defecit
means someone is removing money from the public supply chain and using it for his/her personal gain. 2.3 trillion missing from the pentagon, 3
trillion given to financial institutions to offset damages from derivative investments, etc.

Wall street is all about riding the bull market STARTING FROM THE BEAR MARKET...when prices are rock bottom. Boom-Bust helps consolidate wealth for
savvy speculators. With no bubbles how can you take advantage? Think about it!

Where do you think the WallStreeters get the money from? The Fed, and who created the Fed? The Govt.

And the FED itself is a religious corporation where the IRS(another corporation) collects funds. spends what it wants via the treasury and then
pockets the rest as profit. The IRS is a general private corporation, meaning for profit.

WRONG! Exchange rates is only one aspect of world trade, the rest is trade quotas and tarriffs.

No, I am not wrong you're just denying history, just look at the effects of previous tariffs. Tariffs would do nothing to balance trade, they will
only make the cost of living increase.

How would they make the cost of living increase? First of all it would slow down the importation of goods/services into america and second it would
substantially reduce the need for capital gains/income taxation. Two birds killed with one stone!

It seems as though you are desperate to cling to your "monetary flows" theory as THE EVERYTHING THEORY!

It's not just a theory, it is pretty self-evident. If Chinese citizens could afford to buy our goods we could manufacture and sell to them to Chinese
citizens.

During communism in china, people made less and spent less. Now with pseudo-socialism and the global capitalists investing heavily there, there
standard of living has risen but still it is not up to par with us meaning american/european merchandise is overpriced versus asian merchandise.

We cannot control the chineese government because that is up to the chineese citizens to assert their will on their government if they believe they
have a say. Fact of the matter is american and european multi-national corporations co-operate with the pseudo-socialist chineese government to keep
wages rather low and standard of living below par.

What we can control is our own government and ask that tariffs be put on american brand merchandise produced overseas. Asian brand merchandise would
also have tariffs but to a lesser extent.

And there is no such thing as balanced free trade because developed economies always take advantage of developing economies. Its called imperialism.
Imperialism is not just armies/navies attacking foreign lands, its all about exploiting their resources.

But capitalism isn't a zero-sum game, when two parties trade they both benefit. The only reason the average Chinese person isn't rewarded for
his/her work is because of their govt, not free trade. I'm also assuming you're talking about their labor, you could be talking about other
resources though. If so please state them.

The only thing that should be evident is that cheap merchandise cannot compete with expensive merchandise even in a bull market and much more so in a
bear market with 20% unemployment!

So all governments are criminal institutions according to you or is it just the american government? What the mexican and guatemalan governments?

All of them. Govts by their definition are criminal and violent, you can not claim a monopoly on something [especially force] and still claim to
support natural rights.

Natural rights and freedom are dellusional concepts pushed forward by anarchists. It is more delusional than slavery. The military has a chain of
command, the government has a chain of command, corporations have a chain of command, families have a chain of command, the church has a chain of
command, schools have a chain of command, etc.

I never cease to be amazed by the libertarian-anarchy mentality. Its like trying to have a basketball game without any refeeres. If the government is
bad you fix it, not dish it away.

Huh? Me and my friends play basketball without referees all the time, and we have a lot of fun doing it. You can't fix the govt, people have been
trying to fix govt for thousands of years, people that still think fixing the govt is possible are obviously insane. Your entire post consist of
problems created by the state and your only solution to these problems is more statism, because you think your statism would be better than their
statism.

You obviously don't understand what government is, nor what it should be! Rules of the jungle means the strong get their way over the weak; case in
point the lion eats zebra, the shark eats smaller fish, etc. A weak corporate goverment, as defined by state capitalism, means corporations are too
big and too powerful and they exert too much influence over the citizenry. From a legal perspective only, it means artificial person is more powerful
than a natural person.

Well you can't collect taxes from someone making $7.25 an hour, neither can you collect taxes from someone on welfare/disability/unemployment. More
jobs overseas and over-automation means more people go on unemployment and the state pays them, not the other way around.

The rich don't pay that many taxes anyway. They make up 5-10 percent of americans and ship their money to tax heavens or find some other loopholes to
take advantage of. The middle class pays the bulk of the taxes in dollar amount.

I'm not really understanding what you're saying here. How would the state provide the services if it didn't collect taxes?

You should ask the rich that question because they have a mental block when it comes to taxation.

Its not about avoiding bankruptcy with capitalism, its about greed and being a millionare. The american dream!

Is that is why all those small businesses went out of business? 60% of the jobs that were lost in this depression were in the small business sector,
those greedy capitalist that wanted to live the American dream employed a majority of the people in this country. That doesn't seem selfish at all
to me.

Small business always becomes a victim to big business with state capitalism because government helps the powerful become more powerful and the weak
go out of business or at best get bought out at pennies to the dollar.

Yes I am for state socialism

State socialism is a contradiction in terms, state ownership is not societal ownership. If one man -- the president controls the means of production,
that isn't the same as the community owning the means of production. Where would your utopia emerge?

I already stated state socialism is the direct opposite of state capitalism. You keep confusing the two, just like wikipedia does. When the USA
government is incorporated we have state capitalism and thus it works primarily for big business, whereas with state socialism the soverign government
works for the sovereign people.

Corporations are anonymous shells usually related to business ventures.

And who creates these corporations? The state -- corporations by definition are just extensions of the state. Strike the root, not just one of the
many branches.

edit on 8-7-2011 by Rockdisjoint because: (no reason given)

In a pure captialist enviroment everything is privately owned, including the government. Corporations are the main branch of capitalism! DUH
MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Very interesting OP, my guess for the next crash would be October 2011. If it accure, the world will get in 2012 with a crisis that could distabilise
world peace. Maybe TPTB promoted 2012 fear because they are leading the world right into chaos and if so every one will beleive it's our destiny
instead of understanding that it's TPTB that pushed us into this apocalyptic era.

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