Is it Mike? I mean, I know it is likely from that kind of breeding. But this is the problem of names and genes!!We have a phenotype and a genotype. And we have names for pehenotypes. I used to say" ONLY the breeder knows for sure". But I don't even say that any more as the 'newest generation' of breeders having run out of runway for breeding logical/rational expansion simply mixes koi now to make different hybrid looks.THIS then brings about a conversation we just had on another thread regarding oyagoi genetics as a line breeding or selective breeding effort and the reality of ALL NISHIKIGOI genetics potentially appearing in a spawn. The grand Punnett square if you will. When doitsu was brought into the selective programs it was rolled out systematically. When hikari was brought into selective breeding programs it was rolled out systematically. We were able to then use ZNA standards to determine:white base, black basepattern typematsuba and other scale appointments ( ornamental borders)sheen types and scale typesBut breeders are few to leave the system any time they want and as selective breeding roll outs are as scarce as hen's teeth, we see hybrids that produce mimics of other types.The doitsu fish really excel in this degeneration of logic.This fish identified as kikokuryu could very well be a bad example of the ideal. It is doitsu, it is black based and it is metallic. The ‘ kikokuryu’ being a metallic kumonryu. But a kumonryu is a specific type of Karasu. It is one with a pattern as key. This has gotten sloppy with any doitsu fish of black and white being called kumonryu. But if you are ZNA literate, you will know that pattern type tells us a great deal. As do appointments of pattern in tail and fins. So a doitsu black and white fish with lateral pattern and design rising from lateral pattern to form the nine points or clouds of kumonryu are key. If in metallic form in addition to pattern type we logically have a new fish called a kikokuryu. But as mentioned, poor culling, low consumer expectation and broad names have lead to where we are today. The addition of showa to the stew further battles pattern and the culls can be both beni and ki kokuryu. Now once upon a time, from another starting point we had-----1) Hi utsuri2) Then doitsu hi utsuri

I did a talk for the ZNA judges at the annual judges conference in which we discuss such things. The presentation I did was an introduction of Hikari types as two branches- the first from called Hariwake branch ( cross of two Hikari mono) and the second branch—the use of a Hikari mono with ANY existing variety. So we get metallic showa and metallic utsuri. And we get doitsu versions of other black based fish ( all going into Hikari utsuri – a very misunderstood class).

If you look at this fish we are calling Kikokuryu, you will see utsuri like wrapped pattern hints. You will also see very hi utsuri like streaking in the tail and front of pec fins. ( showa influence in breeding attempt at beni kikouryu? Maybe) or simply just a bad doitsu metallic hi utsuri. May main point here is not to argue for this fish being a Hikari Utsuri doitsu. But rather to say, the more we hybridize our nishikigoi, the more the master gene pool will be reintroduced after decades of separating these traits out and making them unique with actual names. Ask your local ZNA judge to discuss this further. JR

Hmmm. Yes, I see what you mean, JR. It has so little of the atmosphere of Utsuri, I did not focus on those points.

Before we make Zlat despondent over his Shusui being 'my Kikokuryu' or 'JR's Hikari Doitsu Utsuri' or 'something', I'll say that it has a decent zipper for this sort of metallic and will catch the eye of visitors to the pond. I would prefer it without the spot of red, but others will find that beauty spot endearing.

There is a lot of mixing of genetics in breeders' efforts to improve or come up with something different. I do not know if there is more of it occurring today than in the past. Perhaps it is a matter of better mutts being produced now than previously? There has to be some side benefits from the overall improvements in Nishikigoi.

There is purposeful mutt creation occurring among breeders, at least outside of Japan. A mix of doitsu, metallic, gin rin and bright colors can create a lot of marketable small tosai of no particular variety. Lots of odd, pretty, shiny and sparkling tosai around 4-5 inches in length that can be sold for under $20 is just what the pet shop trade wants. Within Japan, we have seen Gin Rin Hikarimuji getting produced, and selling well in the U.S. at prices over $500. A lot of promotion is now occurring for metallic Ochiba, a number of which are not particularly distinguishable from Hariwake, at least when tosai.

There is a desire to give a varietal label to every fish. Old photos from the 1960s show us that some varieties have so improved that what we would call a mutt today is actually what a variety first looked like when it was labelled. And, there are truly pretty mutts that we just don't want to suffer the ignominy of 'mutthood', so we rationalize a varietal label. Perhaps that is what I have done with this quasi-Kikokuryu?

BTW, I am not aware of Dainichi working with doitsu and metallic fish, nor with Kumonryu, so I'm dubious this is from Dainichi's breeding. If it is from Dainichi, it would seem more likely to be from Showa than from Kumonryu. Still, it has the 'feel' of Kikokuryu... at least to me.

Hmmm. Yes, I see what you mean, JR. It has so little of the atmosphere of Utsuri, I did not focus on those points.

when ever you want to determine atmosphere look to the nature of the pattern. Look for the wrap of sumi as opposed to the 'run' or lateral streak of sumi along the body. That fish has the wrap of sumi and also the tail - as I said they have put so much showa sumi into karasu now that the genetics converge with these hybrids.

Before we make Zlat despondent over his Shusui being 'my Kikokuryu' or 'JR's Hikari Doitsu Utsuri' or 'something', I'll say that it has a decent zipper for this sort of metallic and will catch the eye of visitors to the pond. I would prefer it without the spot of red, but others will find that beauty spot endearing. its a fish that can be entered in a koi show and be recognized as a variety but it is not a show fish in terms of standard or quality.

There is a lot of mixing of genetics in breeders' efforts to improve or come up with something different. I do not know if there is more of it occurring today than in the past. Perhaps it is a matter of better mutts being produced now than previously? There has to be some side benefits from the overall improvements in Nishikigoi.

I agree. The improvement angle of introducing gosanke for sure. But most small breeders can not afford the genetics needed to be competitive so they occupy that area of the fad maket where a new hybrid will sell well for a season or two. You will notice these fads at the shows where out of no where you see a ton of ochiba types one year and maybe kikusui another year. I miss those good kikusui by the way. And what ever happened to shiro bekko?? or Ai Goromo? ) I know someone who has an excellent ai gorormo!

There is purposeful mutt creation occurring among breeders, at least outside of Japan. A mix of doitsu, metallic, gin rin and bright colors can create a lot of marketable small tosai of no particular variety.

Spot on! And no question about it-- it is common genetics, dominate and easy to produce

Lots of odd, pretty, shiny and sparkling tosai around 4-5 inches in length that can be sold for under $20 is just what the pet shop trade wants. Within Japan, we have seen Gin Rin Hikarimuji getting produced, and selling well in the U.S. at prices over $500. A lot of promotion is now occurring for metallic Ochiba, a number of which are not particularly distinguishable from Hariwake, at least when tosai.

True, in many types you need the ornamental borders to develop ( scales aren't too developed in tosai ) before you can see the ticking on scale tips.
There is a desire to give a varietal label to every fish.

Very true! As you know, it is not like giving latin names to wild fish like African chiclids. I personally Like the ZNA way of low recognition until the fish is breed for a while and is established as a gene pool. But then again, hybrids have no gene pool to establish so I'll say this again--- in a ZNA show, there are three shows based on age/size and t=other shows based on lineage and not yet proven ( Kawari catch all).

Old photos from the 1960s show us that some varieties have so improved that what we would call a mutt today is actually what a variety first looked like when it was labelled. And, there are truly pretty mutts that we just don't want to suffer the ignominy of 'mutthood', so we rationalize a varietal label. Perhaps that is what I have done with this quasi-Kikokuryu?

BTW, I am not aware of Dainichi working with doitsu and metallic fish, nor with Kumonryu, so I'm dubious this is from Dainichi's breeding. If it is from Dainichi, it would seem more likely to be from Showa than from Kumonryu. Still, it has the 'feel' of Kikokuryu... at least to me.

I agree. check out my comments on certificates on the other thread. We see this the same.

Thank you for taking the comments as they were intended-- to help you see your fish better. It is a hard thing to have strangers review your fish and not get what is available elsewhere which is support and praise.
There are thousands upon thousands of koi in the world. Not all are great but each one has something to teach-- even it is what to look for in your next koi and what to avoid. There is no perfect fish! Just some that match the 'ideal' better than others. Part of the fun of koi is looking for the ideal in each fish. Best, JR

Here are the koi's that i bought , i don't think i have any female though.

Sizes are 1- 9.5" , 2- 11" , 3- 10.5 " , 4- 11" , 5- 13".

The Matsuba of the last picture was a female but it died 3 days ago of intoxication with a silicone that fell in the pond , the kumonryu and the karasugoi also got intoxicated but survived up to now since they are still recovering , the kumonryu was the worst with red skin and sunken eyes , all 3 were put in quarantine with melafix and salt but for the Matsuba it was only on the same day she died since when i saw being near the surface of the water and not moving it's then that i decided to put her in quarantine but she then died in less than a hour after that.

thanks for the updte on your selections.
sorry you had the mishap, most frustrating I am sure.
please toss the melfix, it "may" have some antiseptic quality for injuries, a big MAY.
but it also is an oil and I feel if is more likely to coat the gills and add to any troubles rather than help