LH was certainly not 'green' or 'wet behind the ears' in terms of his start at Macca in F1! Nevertheless, he did perform and certainly achieved more than was expected of him as a rookie!.Rosberg doesn't seem to have the same level of 'push' - if I can call it that - but like I said earlier, I think with a stronger teammate, he may find it helps him find that 'push' from within himself - and he could gain a lot from LH in the team? (certainly a darn sight more than he gained from schuey!) of course, this is all gassing cos we have nothing better to discuss until the cars take to the track in anger!

He had plenty of "push". In 2011 and 2012 Schumi was up 14-9 when both cars finished. In my view it would be about square by justice (Schumi had many retirements hence low points). What he didn't have was a good car.

I dislike all this "when both finish" argument. Schumi rammed his car into a few opponents over the last couple of years and they should be included in the record

LH was certainly not 'green' or 'wet behind the ears' in terms of his start at Macca in F1! Nevertheless, he did perform and certainly achieved more than was expected of him as a rookie!.Rosberg doesn't seem to have the same level of 'push' - if I can call it that - but like I said earlier, I think with a stronger teammate, he may find it helps him find that 'push' from within himself - and he could gain a lot from LH in the team? (certainly a darn sight more than he gained from schuey!) of course, this is all gassing cos we have nothing better to discuss until the cars take to the track in anger!

He had plenty of "push". In 2011 and 2012 Schumi was up 14-9 when both cars finished. In my view it would be about square by justice (Schumi had many retirements hence low points). What he didn't have was a good car.

I dislike all this "when both finish" argument. Schumi rammed his car into a few opponents over the last couple of years and they should be included in the record

Yes that's more or less what I said... he did that a couple of times when he was behind. I said by justice it should probably be about equal... a far cry from 2010...

I dislike all this "when both finish" argument. Schumi rammed his car into a few opponents over the last couple of years and they should be included in the record

That is very true. While I don't even remember the last time Nico rammed his car into an opponent.

It's also true that 9-14 cannot be described as domination. If Hamilton is even slightly better than 43 year old Schumi, which I personally think he is, then Nico will have a hell of a battle on his hands.

In Singapore Schumi was behind a whole loads of cars who cut the first corner, including Nico. More to the point is retirements like China, Canada where he was behind. But anyway it should be about equal, which brings us back to what I said above.

That's easy to say by looking at the scoresheets alone, but how many times have Nico and Lewis actually had a car that was more or less in the same level pacewise? I can only remember China 2012. Nico won.

_________________“I'm happy, but there's nothing to jump around about.”

That's easy to say by looking at the scoresheets alone, but how many times have Nico and Lewis actually had a car that was more or less in the same level pacewise? I can only remember China 2012. Nico won.

That's easy to say by looking at the scoresheets alone, but how many times have Nico and Lewis actually had a car that was more or less in the same level pacewise? I can only remember China 2012. Nico won.

Oooooo controversial! Lol

My term 'push' was intended to describe forcing the car almost beyond its capabilities. I'm sure I will be corrected if wrong, but I don't recall NR constantly pushing his car week in week out and driving like a lunatic to gain a couple of extra places. It's a bit like, once he was ahead of Schuey, he felt that it was job done, and would follow the leaders home? I fully accept he didn't have the machinery to do much more, but I don't see Hamilton taking the same attitude or tolerating that kind of attitude from the team. (this is somewhat different to say, nursing a wounded car home, or just cruising to safeguard a good points haul - which is something hopefully Hamilton has learnt by now!)

That's easy to say by looking at the scoresheets alone, but how many times have Nico and Lewis actually had a car that was more or less in the same level pacewise? I can only remember China 2012. Nico won.

Oooooo controversial! Lol

My term 'push' was intended to describe forcing the car almost beyond its capabilities. I'm sure I will be corrected if wrong, but I don't recall NR constantly pushing his car week in week out and driving like a lunatic to gain a couple of extra places. It's a bit like, once he was ahead of Schuey, he felt that it was job done, and would follow the leaders home? I fully accept he didn't have the machinery to do much more, but I don't see Hamilton taking the same attitude or tolerating that kind of attitude from the team. (this is somewhat different to say, nursing a wounded car home, or just cruising to safeguard a good points haul - which is something hopefully Hamilton has learnt by now!)

He couldn't push and drive like a looney for extra places, thats something I've been saying for ages.

As soon as the Merc was pushed the rear tyres went off. The Merc was the worst culprit for having to drive to a Delta to conserve tyres.

If Merc haven't solved their problems then Hammy will be in the same boat this year. Giving that extra push will only mean an extra stop or two. So basically last year for the most part the Mercs were in damage limitation.

That's easy to say by looking at the scoresheets alone, but how many times have Nico and Lewis actually had a car that was more or less in the same level pacewise? I can only remember China 2012. Nico won.

That's easy to say by looking at the scoresheets alone, but how many times have Nico and Lewis actually had a car that was more or less in the same level pacewise? I can only remember China 2012. Nico won.

Lewis had a gearbox penalty. The Merc was the class of the field at China. Don't think its a fair comparism

We will see how close they are come Melbourne. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Nico was quicker initially. Always rated him very highly

That's easy to say by looking at the scoresheets alone, but how many times have Nico and Lewis actually had a car that was more or less in the same level pacewise? I can only remember China 2012. Nico won.

Lewis had a gearbox penalty. The Merc was the class of the field at China. Don't think its a fair comparism

During their time in F1, with the exception of China 2012, Lewis has arguably always had a faster car. That's fair?

Moore wrote:

Yes and Lewis had a gearbox penalty... Oh dear.

No need to go all condescending and oh dearing on me. My point wasn't if Nico was better than Lewis on that weekend or not, it was simply just that it was pretty much the only time Nico has ever had a machinery to beat Lewis.

_________________“I'm happy, but there's nothing to jump around about.”

That's easy to say by looking at the scoresheets alone, but how many times have Nico and Lewis actually had a car that was more or less in the same level pacewise? I can only remember China 2012. Nico won.

Lewis had a gearbox penalty. The Merc was the class of the field at China. Don't think its a fair comparism

During their time in F1, with the exception of China 2012, Lewis has arguably always had a faster car. That's fair?

Moore wrote:

Yes and Lewis had a gearbox penalty... Oh dear.

No need to go all condescending and oh dearing on me. My point wasn't if Nico was better than Lewis on that weekend or not, it was simply just that it was pretty much the only time Nico has ever had a machinery to beat Lewis.

have you heard the phrases "falling on deaf ears", and "talking to a brick wall." I mean the above posters quoted no insults, but a lot of people would usually nitpick any observations about Lewis which aren't totally positive.

That's easy to say by looking at the scoresheets alone, but how many times have Nico and Lewis actually had a car that was more or less in the same level pacewise? I can only remember China 2012. Nico won.

Lewis had a gearbox penalty. The Merc was the class of the field at China. Don't think its a fair comparism

During their time in F1, with the exception of China 2012, Lewis has arguably always had a faster car. That's fair?

Moore wrote:

Yes and Lewis had a gearbox penalty... Oh dear.

No need to go all condescending and oh dearing on me. My point wasn't if Nico was better than Lewis on that weekend or not, it was simply just that it was pretty much the only time Nico has ever had a machinery to beat Lewis.

Apologies mate, wasn't necessary for me to add the oh dear.

Cheers for explaining yourself more though, wasn't too sure if I was getting the right message from your post.

Cheers for explaining yourself more though, wasn't too sure if I was getting the right message from your post.

Ok, that's cool.

Just so that we avoid any further confusion, I do think Lewis is a bit faster driver than Nico, when put into similar cars, but I think the margin could still be very small and Nico might very well start the season having the edge. I don't buy the whole "Rosberg doesn't have the extra push" thing at all. I think what Johnston said earlier in this thread was very accurate and I agree with that completely.

Fortunately, we don't have to wait for long to see how they compare against each other in equal machinery. That's why I think this year is very important for Nico, regardless of how competitive the car turns out to be.

_________________“I'm happy, but there's nothing to jump around about.”

Cheers for explaining yourself more though, wasn't too sure if I was getting the right message from your post.

Ok, that's cool.

Just so that we avoid any further confusion, I do think Lewis is a bit faster driver than Nico, when put into similar cars, but I think the margin could still be very small and Nico might very well start the season having the edge. I don't buy the whole "Rosberg doesn't have the extra push" thing at all. I think what Johnston said earlier in this thread was very accurate and I agree with that completely.

Fortunately, we don't have to wait for long to see how they compare against each other in equal machinery. That's why I think this year is very important for Nico, regardless of how competitive the car turns out to be.

I agree on them points, can't say I've ever said anything bad about Nico and have always thought he was an excellent driver. Will be great to see what he is like against a younger WDC.

That's easy to say by looking at the scoresheets alone, but how many times have Nico and Lewis actually had a car that was more or less in the same level pacewise? I can only remember China 2012. Nico won.

Lewis had a gearbox penalty. The Merc was the class of the field at China. Don't think its a fair comparism

During their time in F1, with the exception of China 2012, Lewis has arguably always had a faster car. That's fair?

Moore wrote:

Yes and Lewis had a gearbox penalty... Oh dear.

No need to go all condescending and oh dearing on me. My point wasn't if Nico was better than Lewis on that weekend or not, it was simply just that it was pretty much the only time Nico has ever had a machinery to beat Lewis.

have you heard the phrases "falling on deaf ears", and "talking to a brick wall." I mean the above posters quoted no insults, but a lot of people would usually nitpick any observations about Lewis which aren't totally positive.

So I'm not allowed to argue my point without being accused of "like talking to a brick wall". I'm not like that at all fella so leave out such ridiculous comments

I agree on them points, can't say I've ever said anything bad about Nico and have always thought he was an excellent driver. Will be great to see what he is like against a younger WDC.

I don't know but for some reason, while Nico is a good driver, he's been steadily falling into a pattern not so unlike that of Heidfeld. Highly regarded and thought to be quick by many people, experts and fans alike, but outside his one race victory has failed to really garner attention. In this league, drivers cannot afford to be complacent with good results, they must shoot for great results consistently. This attitude of "oh well we got the most out of the car as was possible" is all too easy for drivers to refer to. Alonso took a car that although not slow, was seemingly difficult to handle and the way he made the most of it was to continue to push hard throughout full race distances trying to find that extra tenth here and there, and though some luck was to contribute to his unexpected success, he never stopped pushing and THAT is what a driver the likes of Rosberg needs to do. We already know that Lewis has that same don't quit mindset and always pushes to the end so he might set a good enough bar with which to measure Nico's push throughout entire race distances. Nico has started many races quite strong and by the midway point begins to lose ground to those ahead which is when the cars usually go quicker due to lighter fuel loads. And I don't think it's fair to say it's been his cars every time because I find it impossible for every car he has driven to have near identical performance cliffs. There is still a bit of time left for him as he is well regarded and well liked by everyone in the sport, but if he wants to remain in the sport he needs to up his game. In this new era of F1, Heidfeld might just be the last we will ever see hold on to seats merely because he was well liked or experienced. Too many young up and comers with wads of cash waiting for their chance for seats and there is no shortage of cash strapped teams.

Truer words have never been spoken. The semi-romantic period is out out out. Comes only natural with this financial global crisis, nobody can afford to be nice anymore. In light of the recent status, Bernie's idea of a 40m...something...budget-cap does not seem to be such a bad idea. Because, the way things go, some teams are liable to jump ship before ending completely broke.

Now, back to business, so far Rosberg has the advantage over the first 2 testing days. At least he knows the old cars, whilst Hamilton didn't get too much of a chance to get acclimatised. But, that can be fixed in along run, I suppose.

I agree on them points, can't say I've ever said anything bad about Nico and have always thought he was an excellent driver. Will be great to see what he is like against a younger WDC.

I don't know but for some reason, while Nico is a good driver, he's been steadily falling into a pattern not so unlike that of Heidfeld. Highly regarded and thought to be quick by many people, experts and fans alike, but outside his one race victory has failed to really garner attention. In this league, drivers cannot afford to be complacent with good results, they must shoot for great results consistently. This attitude of "oh well we got the most out of the car as was possible" is all too easy for drivers to refer to. Alonso took a car that although not slow, was seemingly difficult to handle and the way he made the most of it was to continue to push hard throughout full race distances trying to find that extra tenth here and there, and though some luck was to contribute to his unexpected success, he never stopped pushing and THAT is what a driver the likes of Rosberg needs to do. We already know that Lewis has that same don't quit mindset and always pushes to the end so he might set a good enough bar with which to measure Nico's push throughout entire race distances. Nico has started many races quite strong and by the midway point begins to lose ground to those ahead which is when the cars usually go quicker due to lighter fuel loads. And I don't think it's fair to say it's been his cars every time because I find it impossible for every car he has driven to have near identical performance cliffs. There is still a bit of time left for him as he is well regarded and well liked by everyone in the sport, but if he wants to remain in the sport he needs to up his game. In this new era of F1, Heidfeld might just be the last we will ever see hold on to seats merely because he was well liked or experienced. Too many young up and comers with wads of cash waiting for their chance for seats and there is no shortage of cash strapped teams.

If the development of the car starts going backwards in relation to the front runners, no amount of "pushing" is going to give you a better finish...Rosberg would have just ended up making more pit stops to replace eaten up tires. I would say that he got about all he could out of the dog of a Mercedes last year. Winning a Formula 1 race is no small achievement...plenty of really good racers over the years never stood on the top step. If the car is decent, I think we will see some strong drives out of Rosberg (and Hamilton) this season. Just my 2 cents...

Notice I didn't say anything in regards to development. I was analyzing Nico's own performance throughout complete race distances. He tends to start out strong and hangs on to high places quite well, at times even coming close to setting fast laps and then by the midway point his own performance diminishes gradually. Towards the end of stints on tires his cars were surely chewing them up a great deal and it's understandable that his pace would drop off. However, upon hitting the track with fresh rubber, his pace never really goes back up to what it was earlier in the race. This has been the case for him with both the prime and option compounds. For instance, if he was able to lap on Softs at the beginning of races at say 1:18 on full fuel, then certainly after pitting for new soft rubber towards the end of races he should be significantly faster but he's generally only marginally faster. This is precisely why I compared him to Heidfeld.

I dislike all this "when both finish" argument. Schumi rammed his car into a few opponents over the last couple of years and they should be included in the record

That is very true. While I don't even remember the last time Nico rammed his car into an opponent.

Montreal pitlane in 2008?

Some people are so obsessed with jumping on Hamilton's back that they forget Rosberg did exactly the same thing.

Some people are so obsessed in trying to label other posters as being detractors of <insert driver name here> that they miss the whole point of the post and lose track of who was actually being compared to who.

_________________“I'm happy, but there's nothing to jump around about.”

I dislike all this "when both finish" argument. Schumi rammed his car into a few opponents over the last couple of years and they should be included in the record

That is very true. While I don't even remember the last time Nico rammed his car into an opponent.

Montreal pitlane in 2008?

Some people are so obsessed with jumping on Hamilton's back that they forget Rosberg did exactly the same thing.

Some people are so obsessed in trying to label other posters as being detractors of <insert driver name here> that they miss the whole point of the post and lose track of who was actually being compared to who.

I dislike all this "when both finish" argument. Schumi rammed his car into a few opponents over the last couple of years and they should be included in the record

That is very true. While I don't even remember the last time Nico rammed his car into an opponent.

Montreal pitlane in 2008?

Some people are so obsessed with jumping on Hamilton's back that they forget Rosberg did exactly the same thing.

Some people are so obsessed in trying to label other posters as being detractors of <insert driver name here> that they miss the whole point of the post and lose track of who was actually being compared to who.

And some people are so obsessed with labelling others as over-zealous Hamilton fans that they don't realise when others are backing up the point they've made by bringing up an incident that occurred 4 and half years ago.

The second point was supposed to be a random side point that I stuck down without much thought and wasn't intended as a dig at anyone in particular so I apologise if it appeared so.The intent of my post was to agree with you

So. Rosberg already quicker than Hamilton. But I think I know why that is. This is going to be a long read so bear with me:

Spoiler (click to show)

courtesy of ashley313

If you take into account both run a different car on their testing days, the time are not really to compare

It wasn't a different car. It was the same car with different bits on it. Who knows if one was actually quicker than the other though, only Merc will since they know fuel loads, tyre wear and brake wear etc.

So. Rosberg already quicker than Hamilton. But I think I know why that is. This is going to be a long read so bear with me:

Spoiler (click to show)

courtesy of ashley313

If you take into account both run a different car on their testing days, the time are not really to compare

It wasn't a different car. It was the same car with different bits on it. Who knows if one was actually quicker than the other though, only Merc will since they know fuel loads, tyre wear and brake wear etc.

So. Rosberg already quicker than Hamilton. But I think I know why that is. This is going to be a long read so bear with me:

Spoiler (click to show)

courtesy of ashley313

If you take into account both run a different car on their testing days, the time are not really to compare

It wasn't a different car. It was the same car with different bits on it. Who knows if one was actually quicker than the other though, only Merc will since they know fuel loads, tyre wear and brake wear etc.

Do you have inside knowledge working in Mercedes to know what Hamilton tested compared to Rosberg? (So many things would of been different, fuel load, tyres, duct, engine settings, set-up adjustments, part tweaks etc etc)

If you don't have inside knowledge then your just speculating on nothing but an uninformed opinion based on no logical facts, unless of course you can show the data to back up your theory from within Mercedes.