Interview with Julia Nail Moss and Ernest Speck, 1988

INTERVIEW WITH:
DATE:
PLACE:
INTERVIEWERS:
THE INSTITUE OF TEXAN CULTURES
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM
Julia Nail Moss and Dr . Ernest Speck
May 9, 1988
Alpine, Texas
Bill and Precious Gregg
M: My name was Julia Nail and I married John M. Moss. And
I was born in Marathon , Texas.
BG: Marathon? Close by. And I 'm Bill Gregg, and you
identify yourself
PG: I'm Precious Gregg, Bill Gregg's wife, and Julia, I
think if you sit over here . Do you mind? Over on the sofa?
Be closer. Your voice is so beautifully soft, and we have
to be careful about that • . •
M: It is soft ... doesn't carry well.
BG: We're about to say something about the Hendrick's Place
down at Big Bend.
PG : The Nail place , Bill.
BG: Was it the Nail place? The Nail place, down at Big
Bend. Would you like to tell us about that?
M: When the Park first took it over, they ..• it was
labeled the Old Ranch. And that may ... I don't know
whether that's when you visited •.. did you just
PG: I didn't remember the name, Nail.
M: So they have added it recently.
BG: Oh, I see.
,~
MOSS 2
M: You know, in the beginning they wiped out all signs of
civilization there. That was their aim. And they kept
changing their goals, I expect.
PG: Well, to me it ws like a little oasis.
BG: It was definitely
M: And it was. It really was. Of course, it's nothing
like it used to be. Of course, it was all cleared off. All
that brush.
PG: Well, they had just the wall? Just the side of the
wall?
M: But they knocked it down.
PG: Oh, did they?
M: Yes, they did. It really ... I don't think ..• they
said it was structurally unsound, but I don't think that's
true at all. Not at the time. Of course, by now it would
have been . But that was just their policy at that time.
And now they're beginning to try to restore some of the ...
PG: ?
M: But it was al l cleared. Dad had ••• always had fields
where he grew feed or alfalfa or something.
PG: How big an a rea did it comprise? Was it acres?
M: Oh, yes. And I really don't know. But a good size
field.
PG: And it was in a low spot, so it would get the run off
of any water that came down.
M: They irrigated it for a time when he first .•• when
they first moved down there. And of course the tank ... he
MOSS 3
M: irrigated it from a dirt tank. And the orchard that he
planted .•• had quite a sizeable orchard.
PG: What time ... What year was that?
M: They moved •.• must have moved over there about he
came to this country in 1909. But he first lived on the
east side of the Chisos Mountains in ••. close to Dugout and
then later on, at Pine Canyon [called Nail Canyon at that
time]. And then he moved over to the west side, and I don't
know, must have been some time in 1914 •.. 1916, somewhere
along in there. I never heard ••. never really thought of
it ... you know, you don't think about these things when
you're growing up.
PG: No. And some people don't write dates, so ..•
BG: It's not important at the time.
M: No. You never dream that your parents ••• INTERRUPTION
IN TAPE.
M: I guess ..•
BG: It came up about a lot of the boy children seemed to be
dying, and we were curious if there was any connection
between that or happened to be listed that way .•.
PG: You lost a brother?
M: Yes.
PG: How old was he?
M: He was nine.
PG: Nine?
BG: And you said when he was small, you called him Tack
instead of Nail? Some of his classmates called him 'Bob
Tack.'
MOSS 4
PG: Please tell us some more now. He's got the recorder on
now ..
M: I've forgotten where I was.
BG: Well, we talked about the place down in the Big Bend
area .•. the old Nail place. And so, it certainly isn't
limited to Big Bend or any other one subject. We have both
sides of the tape, if you want to talk that long.
PG: Do tell us about the house and what you remember then.
Where you all played as children .•.
M: Well, the house was adobe, you know. It was in those
days
PG: Uh huh. Adobe brick .•.
M: You know, they didn't even have cars when they built
the house, so they had Mexican labor to build a house of
adobe, and it was just a two room house to start with , and
never was very fancy, even when we left there, but it was
comfortable. Cool , you know. And later on they added a
sleeping porch and a kitchen , out of lumber.
PG: Did it have a big mesquite tree for shade? Seems to me
M: No. There were lots of willow trees. See, it was
sub-irrigated. Water was very shallow. And so these trees,
I'm sure, had their roots down there. In fact, the pecan
trees that are still there, you know , they would be dead by
now if they didn't have some water, because nobody's watered
them the rest of the orchard died. The pecan trees
that are close to the well are still alive, and one of those
MOSS 5
M: pecan trees was a pecan planted from a pecan that
Mr. Townsend gave Daddy. It was one of the Jim Hogg pecans
from Austin. It was great. And the other one, Mrs. Hopkins
gave him. I think there's three trees there, but anyway,
maybe she gave him two. Gave him some peacns, and I don't
know where they came from •••
PG: Was that when Mr. Hogg was governor?
M: No. No. It was after his death. You know, he ... I've
forgotten the tale. He planted the .. , he wanted a walnut
at his head, was it? A pecan at his foot, and .•• (everyone
talking a once) the nuts were to be distributed around
the state. That's his ... There's a .•. I can't remember
the story, but it's •.•
PG: That's the backg round of his receiving one of them?
BG: I've never heard that before, but then my background is
Georgia. Precious is the Texan .
PG: Yes, I was born in Austin.
M: What was your great-grandfather's name?
PG: Ujffy . From La Grange.
M: I've read a lot about that area.
PG: There was a Judge Steele, and when Mr. Ujffy died, his
wife married Judge Steele, but then she was buried with my
grandfather, as Ujffy, in the cemetery.
M: That's interesting . I've read a lot about that area
because that's •.. my great-grandfather was one of Austin's
old 300 and he settled in that area. But ...
PG: How many children were in your family?
MOSS 6
M: Just the two of us.
PG: Just the two.
M: I was really just an only child.
PG: Well, you really got to work and help.
M: Well, of course, it was ... it was lonesome after my
brother died. I was still ... I was seven. But we had
close neighbors after the Wilsons moved to Oak Canyon • . •
about two miles away.
PG: How did you go to visit them ••• by horseback?
M: Horseback. Uh huh.
PG: What kind of horses did you all have? Were they wild
ponies that you tamed?
M: Oh, no. No. They were ••• there really weren't any wild
horses in the country at that time. But Daddy ... he liked
horses •.• he liked to raise horses. So we had quarter
horses. Of course, they were not , you know, race horses,
PG: No. You didn't need to race.
M: But he liked to raise horses, and he had grown up as a
farmer, so he really , I think that's ••• not many people
down in that area ...
PG: ..• And learned how to be farmers.
BG: Do you recall the first car that came .•. that your
folks had?
M: Yes, but I don't really remember when we got it. I
just •.. I was pretty small.
BG: Anything about it? Do you remember, perhaps, what kind
it was?
,
MOSS 7
M: It was a Model T.
BG: A Model T. That's strange. (laughter)
PG: Well, did you use wagons to transport things?
M: Before the cars , uh huh. But I can't remember that
period. I can remember going horseback, of course, but I
don't know when we got the car. But I was pretty small
then. My first recollections of going to town was ••. it
took all day. Or virtually al l day.
PG: Where was town? Hhich
M: Marathon .
PG: Marathon, oh, that would be quite a trip.
BG: Yes.
M: But you see, Marathon or Alpine had to be ..•
PG: Did your Dad have to build his own road to get to
Marathon?
M: Oh, yes .
PG: The road itself?
M: For many years.
PG: And that was a lot of rocks.
M: You'd just get out and build road as we went along.
And scotch up the hill .•. after we got the Model T. Of
course, I didn't do much scotching , but I remember the older
ones doing it.
PG: Do you remember weather very much? Did you have bad
storms that came down?
M: Not really. The only one time I remember that it
rained real hard,and water was so ..• came down by our house
, .
MOSS 8
M: so much that my mother opened the windows and let it
in, and that was a mistake but she thought it was going to
wash the adobes away, I guess. I don't know why. She was
frightened. And so it didn't do the floors any good.
PG: Or anything inside either.
M: And then after that, why, Daddy built a kind of a dam
PG: A wall.
M: ... to di vert the water from the house. Because we
were situated right under a hill. And I guess the water
just all came down in spots instead of spreading out.
PG: That's a beautiful spot, though. It's such a nice
green spot in the middle of the ... is it in the Chihuahuan
Desert?
M: Oh, yes.
PG: And here's this green spot with a house and a home and
growing vegetables, too.
BG: They kept the windmill working .•. that's why the
water's still flowing.
M: Yes, they have. But they haven't really made any
effort to water the ..• plants or anything ...
BG: No, no. Just the pipe, and there it is.
M: Which they needed to do for the animals.
PG: Oh, yes, keep water for them.
M: The ranch we had was a well- watered, as far as having a
lot of springs. They were not strong springs, but they were
enough, you know, f or the stock. Daddy always kept them
MOSS 9
M: cleaned out (the springs).
ES: Not now. Those springs are dry enough to stick a bed
in. Gee, it's dry.
PG: Do you remember how large an orchard it ws, because
there weren't too many fruit trees grown in that area, I'm
sure.
M: No, there were not. It seemed big to me. I know we
had huge plum trees, and some pear trees, and a lot of
peaches.
PG: Did you have any citrus ..• like orange? Or lemons?
M: No. I'ms sure they had tried it, but it's just too cold
for citrus.
BG: It makes a difference.
M: Now over in Fresno Canyon they used to have orange
trees, but that was quite a ways south, you know.
BG: When you all moved from there, where did you go? When
you left the ranch?
M: The in what's now the game preserve. It used to be
the old Walker Place. Otto Walker and the Walker family
lived in this country in the early days. And after that we
moved over to Chalk Draw, to the Schuler place •.• Noland
Schuler's place.
BG: That's still in Big Bend?
M: Yes. They didn't leave the Big Bend.
BG: Summer then was more inviting than it is these days.
Whoooeee.
PG: Well, we're just fascinated •.• (someone enters )
MOSS 10
PG: Ernest, welcome to the conversation. Can you think o f
anything we've not asked?
ES : Well , I haven't been around the whole time, but one of
the things that I'm curious about is since this is virtual ly
a treeless region, in a lot of ways, what did you do for
someth ing to burn in stoves , and what-not?
M: Oh, it's very plentiful. We burned mesquite.
ES: There's plenty of mesquite around.
M: Plenty of mesquite. Mesquite roots. Of course, you
have to hunt for it, you know. You don't know ...
ES : I think what happened was that after grazing ate up all
the grass, the droughts came after that, I believe, so up to
that time you had some grass and some trees.
M: Well, actually, it wasn't all that d i fferent . We had
droughts when I was growing up. And , you know, periods of
rain •.. peiods of drought ••. is just the way this country
is.
BG: Grass is all gone now. Mesquites too, unless you get
to an oasis, or old ranch ...
M: Well , you know , if you'll notice the mesquites are
always .•• they're just blooming now like crazy. Now, I
wondered about that.
PG: Do you know if the Indians had moved there first,
before your dad?
M: Oh, yes. There were lots of signs.
PG: they knew that there was water there.
M: Yes.
MOSS 11
PG: That was a spot that attracted people.
M: And about a mile from our house, to the north, was a
place that we called the Cottonwoods .•• there's still
cottonwood trees there. And springs. There's a little
house there. I don't know who built the house, but I'm sure
that my father and his brother ..• they were the ones that
built there originally I'm sure they lived there at
first until they got their house built.
ES: That area that's known as the Cottonwoods now, is it a
campground near Castelon?
M: No, I don't think so. This would have been just a mile
from our house, and there were lots of signs of Indians
there •.• the? flints. In fact, some things were dug
up there. I don't know exactly what was taken out. Ray
Miller used to do this for the Witte Museum. In fact, he
married a lady who worked there, Leona Worley, her name was.
And they dug some things there and took them, but I'm not
sure just what all was found ... arrowheads and
PG: Archaeologists have been very active, even north on the
Austin Highway, before they did that in San Antonio, they
found an Indian encampment.
M: There were several places where there were, you know,
Indians ••. Indian campsites that you could tell.
PG: Well, that must have been fun for you if you had
chances to roam around and find something.
M: Yes. That was one of our favorite pastimes. I still
like rocks.
MOSS 12
BG: I think we passed up a question that you had a while
ago. You mentioned about the mesquite trees blooming and
you said something about, "I wonder ••. "
M: Well, I just wonder how they can bloom so profusely in
such a dry spring when nothing else can grow. There may be
a reason for that. I thought maybe that would be the only
thing for the stock to live on during the dry season. I
don't know. That just came to my mind.
ES: What sort of cattle did you have?
M: Well, my father had black Angus when he moved to this
country. But that didn't do well. He was a small rancher
and everybody else had Herefords. So, unless you could sell
a carload, you see, of cattle of the same kind, nobody would
buy them. The buyers ..• Because they wanted to start a
herd, I guess.
ES: No, the buyers from a meat company.
at once)
(everybody t a lking
M: so he finally had to ..• had to start over and buy
Herefords. But he didn't think they did well in this
country, you know. They are subject t o a lot of diseases.
ES: I was wondering just when blooded cattle came in ... If
ranchers pretty well started with blooded cattle out here?
M: Here they did, I guess. Now, I don't know before 1900,
I suppose there were some
BG: .•• longhorn stuff?
M: I imagine. Mexico cattle, they're called.
ES: Well, what about ... you mentioned a while ago the ...
MOSS 13
ES: lots of Mexican labor ... or making use of them ...
Mexican labor a good deal ... what about any of the troubles
that went on in Mexico, did they ... ?
M: Well, I've heard .•. I don't remember any of that
but I've heard a lot about it. My father said that he went
to Glenn Springs on the day after the raid, I believe it
was. In fact, my mother's cousin had corne by and wanted him
to go down there with him that day, but he was busy and so
they went the next day, in time there was still some
shooting going on and looting. And he always laughed and
said, he killed a dog and shot a hole through a woman's hat.
He liked to joke.
PG: Which raiding group was that that carne up?
M: Well, that was Pancho Villa's men, they said. I don't
know. Surely he wasn't with them, but
PG: Well, they were chasing him for a long time, but they
never did catch him.
ES: I've always wondered •• there seemed to be •.. it's
certainly not a heavily populated area, yet there seemed to
be many more people living across the river.
M: At that time?
ES: And even now.
M: Well, there are a lot more people living on this side,
too.
ES: Yeah, but I mean, little villages and what not.
M: Yes. Well, there were a lot of little villages then,
you know. Water. I'm sure that's what drew the people that
MOSS 14
M: came here ... there was a little strip of dirt that was
good and water there, so I guess that's why all those
villages sprung up. I suppose.
PG: Was there any problem with crossing the Rio Grande into
Mexico? Did they ever ask for a visa or patrol the border
in those days?
M: Of course, there were a few but they were pretty
scarce. No , I'm sure they were never
never did unless we had reason to.
PG: To buy stuff over there?
of course, we
M: Uh huh. But ... usually to hunt for help .•. for l abo r
was the reason that you went to ••• the River.
PG: Do you remember or have any idea how much they paid the
workers just food and lodging?
M: Oh, they paid them a little something, but ...
PG: Just a small amount.
M: I don't ••.
BG: Everything was small compared to today.
M: You had asked about the house. I was going to tell you
that the house was built, you know, Mexican syyle, with the
beams in the ceiling and instead of river cane which was
used usually, we used sotol poles . But the logs in the
ceiling carne from the Chisos , in the basin. And they were
drug out by Mexicans and a burro, I think. You drug them
out, you know. They were long, long ••.
PG: That's a long haul from up there down to the valley.
M: Yes, it was.
MOSS 15
PG: They would have been well shined by the time they got
here. Do you remember how long those beams were?
M: I suppose the house was probably at l east 20 feet wide,
so they would have had to be at least 25 or 26 feet.
PG: And tell us again how many rooms it ended up being?
You said you had
M: Well, it started out two adobe rooms, and they added a
long sleeping porch and the kitchen ••. out of lumber.
PG: Was the kitchen separate from the house itself, or was
it enclosed
M: No, it was attached.
ES: Not one of those southern plantation ideas?
M: No . Not quite. It was pretty primitive.
PG: How warm was it in wintertime?
M: Very warm.
PG: Because of the adobe brick.
M: Yes, they are really the most comfortable houses in
this country, I think. Of course, they heated it with a
fireplace, and we did have a stove later on in the other
room, because I went to school on the ranch for three years ,
and so that was my school room •.. had a stove in it.
PG: Where did you go to school ..• you mean, right there in
the house?
M: I had a governess. It was during the depression years ,
you know. Everybody that lived down in that country had to
either have a place in town or you had to rent. And so we
rented part of the time, but then, as I said, fif th, sixth
MOSS 16
M: and seventh grade, I guess, when I had a teacher.
PG: Well, it's wonderful that we wanted to learn so much.
ES: Did she live at your house?
M: Yes. She just taught me ..• I was the only one.
ES: You were the only one, huh?
PG: She didn't bring any children from other families?
M: There weren't any. In those days. They didn't .••
there weren't that many people in the area; they didn't live
that close together, and it wasn 't as easy to drive from one
place to another as it is now.
PG: Was she a young person ••• an older person?
M: Well , I had three different ones actually. One was
the first one was very young •.• she was 17 ... and then the
last one was an older lady ... a very respected teacher who ,
I think she was the first person to get her masters from SuI
Ross. She had a Master's Degree and I don't know what we
paid her, but very little. And then later she taught the
Wilson children at their house.
ES: Let's see, you weren't in a one-room schoolhouse; you
were in a four-room schoolhouse , weren't you. ( laughter)
M: Yes. This woman was Florence Pope, and she taught the
Wilson chi ldren ••. and later on she taught in Terlingua and
in Monahans. There's a school and a street named for her in
Monahans. She was a wonderful teacher.
PG: Some people incredibly had pianos. I ' ve often wondered
how they ever carried a piano from Europe all the way to
Texas.
MOSS 17
M: My mother had one, and it .,. we often used to tell ...
my daughter has it now, but it's .•• it was pretty well beat
up, from bouncing all the way around in a wagon. But my
mother played, and tried to teach me, but I never wasn't
very musical.
PG: Somebody has to appreciate music. Then did you go off,
after your high school equivalent .•• did you go off to
college, then or did you go to home-making or just learned
at home?
M: Well, no, I went to SuI Ross. Let's see, I went three
years on the ranch and then I went a year in San Antonio .,.
stayed with some aunts ... and then I stayed with another
aunt in Marathon for I year; then my mother stayed with me
the last 2 years till I finished high school. And then I
came to SuI Ross. And then I •• , after a few more years,
then I went off to library school. That's what I did most
of my life.
PG: We love .• , I have a sister that's a librarian, and so
and my mother was on the library board in Austin for 40
years, and just loved it. She helped develop the auxiliary
stations •.. branches, that they had.
BG: Were you a librarian in this area?
M: Well, I was a cataloguer at SuI Ross for 24 years.
PG: That's what kept them straight. (laughter) So you
really have contributed to the ..•
BG: You've been in Alpine, then, for a fairly long period
of time.
M: Well, we lived in Brewster County ... well, not all my
MOSS 18
M: life, but most of it. Because we don't consider that
Marathon is that far removed you know.
BG: It isn't far at all.
M: But ... I worked in Del Rio for a time. I worked in
Washington D.C. during World War II, and later in
Philadelphia because I got my library degree there.
PG: Oh, you did.
BG: What I was really getting at is ... of course the span
of years we're discussing isn't all that much, in relation
to, say, a hundred years. Nevertheless, it was some time
ago when you were first here in Alpine, and I wonder if
there's anything interesting you can recall that's changed
now ... that's not the same as it used to be. Not like the
"good old days." Can you remember anything like that? A
movie house or anything at all?
M: WeLl, there are lots of things that have changed.
Basically I remember more about Marathon
changed.
BG: Well, all right. Marathon's close.
.how it's
M: Because they had a bank and a movie house and a dry
cleaners, and you know, there's just nothing there now, so.
BG: The fire came through •.. grass fire.
PG: And lots of fire trucks, too, so I imagine the
Volunteer Fire Department ...
M: Yes.
BG: That's interesting. Marathon, of course, it had to be
a town in those days, right? Now it's just two or three gas
MOSS 19
BG: stations.
M: Right.
ES: And the Gage Hotel.
M: The Gage Hotel. Of course , that's been there a good
while too, but not .•• I can pretty well remember when it
was built.
PG: Was that kind of the end of the railroad?
M: Oh , no, it was the middle, I guess .
ES: Seems to me the Gage was built in ...
M: '28, I believe.
ES: I was going to say, somewhere in the mid 20s or a
little later, yeah.
M: So I was ... I was born in 1921, so I can remember when
it was built.
PG: Did you go to birthday parties with the other children?
You talk about the Wilsons.
M: Well, on the ranch , no, not really. The fact is, I
don't remember going to that many birthday parties when I
was growing up. I don't believe they were as popular then
as they are now. Of course, we always celebrated with our
family birthdays, but ••.
PG: And did you gather the family together down on the Nail
Ranch?
M: Well, in the summer we had the family would visit ,
you know. I had two aunts that .•. well, one of them taught
in San Antonio and the other one kept house for her. And
every summer they would come home and visit around, you
know, with their brothers and sisters . They all lived in
MOSS
M:
PG:
M:
PG:
M:
area. And then my cousins would come sometimes.
and brighten things up?
Oh, yes. But there just weren ' t a lot of .•.
Social life?
Right.
20
PG: Well, I think the Chisos have always been a fascinating
part of Texas, and we keep being drawn back to it. And I
imagine San Antonio ... you were talking about San Antonio
with your teacher and glad to come in the summertime and
visit.
M: Of course, there was •.. when Mother and her brothers
and sisters came to this country there apparently were a lot
more people ... at least in the Chisos than there were
later on. There were several families and the ••• (?)
people, and they would have parties, and dances and
PG: Wonder why they left. Has it just too tough?
M: Well, I guess ••• I guess it was just too hard to make
a living. I don't know. I guess they came because they
liked it .•• liked the climate, but there were just too many
people .•. to make a living.
PG: To make a living.
M: I'm wondering how they managed to stay as long as they
did •.• that many families, close together .•. but they
would ride, oh, miles and miles to ... they would have a
dance, you know, at somebody's ranch, and they would pack up
their dresses in their saddlebags and take off, and stay all
night, you know ... dance all night ..• and •..
MOSS
PG: Where did they sleep everybody? At some of those
parties.
M: I don't think they slept ... the children were on
pallets, but
BG: Those pallets, I'm familiar with those.
21
M: You ' ve read ' The Virginian,' haven't you? For
instance, the baby that died? and that they changed the
children's clothes and their mothers mistook their children
.•. got home with the wrong children. That reminds me of
that because I can remember these times when we would sleep
on pallets, you know, just rows of children.
BG: My mother told about that in Lousiana. Pallets.
ES: Yep, I remember that, too.
M: Well , that's what we did here.
PG: That was a real slumber party ••. an early one. Well ,
having clothes you could pack up and still would have them
looking pretty must have been a real challenge.
M: Well, I don't know how pretty they were. They probably
were a little wrinkled when they got there. But I don't
suppose they cared about that.
PG: It was just the spirit of the ..•
M: Maybe they put the irons on, 'cause everybody used old
flat irons you know, and heated them on the stove.
PG: Some of them right here •.•
M: I have some, too.
PG: Did they have a fiddler who played? Or do you remember
what the music was?
M: I guess. I can't remember who they were, but I know
MOSS 22
M: that ..• and of course, sometimes my mother played the
piano, if it was at her house. And one time ... I don't
remember this, but I was told that my Uncle Waddy Burnham
whistled so they could dance.
BG: You'd need a good strong whistle. I never was able to
do that.
ES: I could, till the dentist got hold of me.
M: He ruined your whistle, huh?
PG: Close those teeth together. Did you always wear boots?
M: No. Actually , I never did. Never had a pair of cowboy
boots.
PG: Sandals?
M: No, you didn't wear sandals because ...
PG: Too open?
M: There were too many thorns.
PG: Some of the people corning up from Indianola, we were
told when we went to Panna Maria , that the women, like the
Polish women, had the higher skirts. They weren't the full
length to the ground and of course , they didn't get as
dirty. But they said also, corning through the carrizos,
that they stepped on the snakes and were bitten because they
didn't have the protection of the full length skirt. And
some of the kids who were barefooted, too, said they were so
busy looking up at the sky to see where they were going
through the tall canes, that they didn't realize that there
were rattlesnakes underneath. So , I was just thinking of
protection that maybe your shoes were higher just to protect
MOSS
PG: your feet. Not only from stickers but from snakes,
too.
23
M: Well , when I rode , of course, I always had ... I had
laced boots at one time.
PG: Oh, that was elegance .
M: Uh huh. But ... but we were careful, you know. That
was one of the first things they taught us, was watch out
for snakes. So •.. but it was stickers, I think, that
bothered us more than the ...
PG: And that would have been the deterrant to growing
grass, was the sticker grass.
ES: Did you ride side-saddle when you were a girl?
M: No. In fact, my ... I guess my mother did when she was
growing up •.. but after they came to this country , my
grandfather insisted that they wear •.. ride astride because
he thought it was so much safer.
PG: Oh, yes , you could really hold on so much better.
M: The side saddle was hanging up in the barn over there
at my grandfather's, but I never did see anybody ride it.
It disintegrated.
PGF: Often the wheels I wonder about the wheelwrights
because those wheels sure took a beating going across all
the rocks.
M: Yes, you have to be a pretty good blacksmith to be a
rancher.
PG: Did he have .•• was there a blacksmith in the valley
then that you would go to?
MOSS 24
M: No. My father was a good blacksmith. He had to learn
to do a lot of things. He had to be his own everything. He
was a pretty good carpenter and a good blacksmith.
BG: ... ? forge and all. Did blacksmithing on the place
himself.
M: That's what Daddy did. He had his own forge.
PG: Where did you go, like to a country store to get nails
or something like that? Was it •.• ?
M: We bought everything in Marathon. You had to ... you
did you had to make a list and go over it carefully,
because if you ran out there was just nothing you could do.
PG: Where did they come from originally? You said Europe?
Were they ... ?
M: You mean
PG: Your family.
M: Well, see, my great grandfather came with Austin. He
came from Tennessee. He was born in Kentucky. And then
moved to Tennessee and Texas in 1821 or whatever .•. '21, I
believe it was when he came. And my grandmother came not
quite that early, but her family came, I guess, soon after
the Republic. And my father's people my father was born
in Arkansas. So he didn't come until ... they came to Texas
around
'96 or
I don't remember ••. before the 1900s, probably
PG: People certainly did a lot of traveling in those days.
Bill was just saying how much his family had moved around.
M: Looking for better times, I guess, but I go back now to
MOSS
M: where they used to live, and I wonder why they ever
left •.. why they kept going till they came here.
25
ES: I thought about that. particularly one of my
grandparents, he moved to Texas from Illinois. Apparently
they had one of the rich blackland farms up there.
M: I've often wondered about that. Of course, I know my
folks were poor. They just never could accumulate anything
for some reason. But
PG: Join the crowd.
M: But you wonder, you know, at least the soil was better.
Now this grandfather was on the Colorado, right down there
where the land is good and .•. but he didn't want anybody
around him, and he kept moving up the Colorado River and
finally he died, close to Marble Falls. You know, it's
pretty country, but it's not nearly as good farmland as
(everyone talking at once)
M: But maybe he didn't like •.. I guess he didn't like to
farm. He said ... I guess he liked ranching better, and of
course
PG: Did he ever have sheep, as well as cattle?
M: Well, now this grandfather did (?) (telephone muffles
sound) I'm talking about here?
My father had goats when they were here. After Homer
Wilson came to the country and got rid of the coyotes and
the panthers, then you know, you could have goats. But
before that, it was just impossible.
PG: Well, we saw a lion or panther-type in Big Bend in the
MOSS 26
PG: Chisos ... run across one of the campgrounds.
M: It doesn't take too long. Because nobody bothers them
anymore.
ES: self .. • limiting because there's not that much.
M: Well, not anymore. They killed them all out. The
drought and the ...
ES: Hunting's not allowed, but I mean we don't have too
many of these panthers up there because there's just so many
deer.
M: Oh, but they're thick. There are lots of panthers.
They come all the way to Alpine. There are a lot of them
here that have come in through the park and game preserve.
BG: Interesting. If they're able to migrate, lucky for
them .
PG: What else can you think of?
ES: That was Gene Hendrick's secretary. He got sick so
he's had to cancel out.
PG: Too much celebrating in Austin.
ES: No. He •.• some medication he's taking •.•
PG: Oh, he reacted ••.
ES: Yeah.
PG: Oh, that's too bad. What did you do when you got sick,
down there? Your family had to have their own medicines
available •..
M: Fortunately, we didn't get sick too often. We weren't
exposed to a lot of germs, but yes, we did get sick, and you
just had to doctor yourself. My father was very ill with
MOSS 27
M: flu one time •. they thought he was going to die •••
but I was ••. that's when I was in town. Mother was living
on the ranch, and I was living with an aunt. But he just
got better.
PG: I think the will to survive sometimes is absolutely
remarkable, with some people, and you know you're up against
it, and you tough it out, and make it anyhow.
How many farmhands , or helpers , did he get ..• his
Mexican help?
M: well , we had a small place , so we didn't have .,. Daddy
used ...
PG: You didn't have a foreman or ••• ?
M: No. No. I think our place had about 22 sections , but
you can't run a lot of stock on ... you know, in this
country ... on that. Took a lot of time to ride it out, but
PG: Was it fenced in at all?
M: It was fenced with, you know, three strands of barbwire
fence around it, but after the Wilsons came, we put net
wiring on ••• at least south of us, and so that helped a
lot, because I can remember when Daddy used to have to ride
all the way to the river, you know, because the stock would
get out and fences would get knocked down and the horses .. _
well, particularly ... well, I had a horse too, that would
go back, but he was bought down there, so my horse always
went back home every time he could. But Daddy used to he
used to have to ride all the way to the river ••• you know,
it would take several days. He'd sleep out , eat at whose
MOSS 28
M: ever house he happened to come to.
PG: Did he make things like his own beef jerky to take on
the trips with him?
M: Daddy was not one ..• he wouldn't even carry ... he
never carried a canteen. He would just ..• there were
springs ••.
PG: Well, there was water available.
M: He knew where they were, and he would just .•. he
didn't carry food. He always said it made him thirsty
food, you know, when he was riding. So he would just eat
when he came to a place.
PG: What kind of clothing would he take? Something for
thunder storms and ..•
M: Yeah, he always carried a slicker on the back of his
saddle. And other than that, why ...
PG: And a gun with him too, in case he needed protection?
M: No, I don't think he ever did.
PG: Unless he had to shoot a rattlesnake. I think I'd
carry a gun for that.
M: He evidently had one with him when he went to Glenn
Springs that time, so maybe when they first came they did.
But when I remember, he never did carry a gun, unless he was
hunting.
PG: What kind of wild animals did you have .•. the deer?
Did the deer run on your property very much?
M: Oh, yes, we had many deer and Daddy killed bear in the
Chisos when they first came down here. I don't remember
MOSS 29
M: ever .•.
PG: Did you have a bear rug on your floor?
ES: Just a bare floor. (laughter)
M: Let's see, we had deer, and coyotes, and bobcats. I
have a picture of a bobcat that we •.. that a man killed on
our place. I was about 12 years old at the time, and this
bobcat ... we had him stretched out •.. and he was tall as
I. He was pretty good size. But that was about it.
PG: Quail?
M: Oh , yes.
PG: And wild turkey?
M: No wild turkey in the country at that time. That's a
recent ...
M: They're coming in now ...
PG: They're coming in now. We saw them crossing the road
on the way here to Alpine.
M: I think it's wonderful. 'Course some of them had been
brought in. I don't know exactly where these turkeys are
all coming from. But they are increasing.
PG: Well, we saw some goats on the outside of a fence, and
they had found a hole because they were on the highway s i de .
And there was nobody to notify, and I didn 't tell them at
Marathon. But it was between Langtry and Marathon on
that road, but the highway is excellent now. They have
built that road where you have access to your family ranch.
And that's how we went and walked down the pathway to the
old house structure.
MOSS 30
M: Yes.
PG: Is that the original pathway that you all used?
M: No, it's completely changed.
PG: Not the same at all?
M: Now that ••• part of the path .•. after well, you
noticed the windmill on top of a hill. That was a booster
mill that Daddy used water from our well on top of Buro
Mesa. We had a big galvanized steel storage tank close to
that windmill o n the hill and another one just like it up on
Burro Mesa. He piped water up there and then had, you know,
smaller tanks for the stock. So one of the things I did •.•
I had a place to swim right at the house that most of the
kids didn't have in those days.
PG: Oh, wonderful!
BG: a swimming pool in the backyard!
PG: The back acres.
M: There really wasn't any other place to swim except the
dirt tanks, you know, and they weren't .,. I swam in some,
but they weren't all that pleasant.
PG: Did you go down the river very much? We loved our raft
ride on the river.
M: Of course we didn't do any rafting in those days, but
fish •.• usually once every summer we'd go fishing. Believe
me, it was hot in the summer, but that was the only time we
could get away ... to fish. So we'd go down different
places •.. Santa Elena Canyon ... I remember going there one
time, and various other places on the river.
MOSS
PG: Do you remember seeing just torrents of water going
down the canyon? I don't know when your rainfall is
heaviest up here
31
M: I was never there. It would be in spring and late
summer, I guess. But I don't ... we'd never happened to be
there at those times.
PG: Well , I love to fish, but about all I catch is perch
M: We don't have any perch in the Rio Grande. But they
used to catch some b ig old catfish in there.
BG: It's amazing how fish can stay in a river despite the
freshets and the fl oods that rivers get. Still when it's
all done, there's s till fish around. They hold on to
something.
M: You wonder how they manage , don't you.
PG: Did you see turtles?
M: Yes, turtles and gars
END OF TAPE I, SIDE 1, 45 MINUTES.
SIDE 2.
BG: watching the machine, and it did not click and so
I'm afraid ·we l os t a lot •.. anyway, we're off and running
again.
PG: We'll talk about the cattle drives and the trucks .•.
pick-ups with them, too. would you just .•.
M: Well, of course you know the roads were so bad that,
you know, couldn't get the trucks in until after the highway
really, basically, when the Highway Department began to
MOSS
M: work that road. And that was after the park opened
about the time the park came into being. So that was
32
BG: In other words, it was always a trail drive, and not a
truck operation.
M: Right. Took about a week to get to town.
BG: Guess it did.
M: And usually the laborers ... family and neighbors ••.
would all get together and •••
PG : Would they add their cattle to your dad's cattle, so
they really would be t aking a large group?
M: Yes.
PG: I wonder how much money they got for a cow?
M: I couldn't tell you.
PG: You really wonder about all that hard work. I'll bet
those cattle didn't have much fat on them .
(all talking at once)
And that probably contributed to the physical
well-being, too. That they weren't so fatty. We worry
about cholesterol these days, and by the time they'd drive
them to market, there wouldn't be much fat left.
M: That's true. What we ate of course , we butchered
our own calves ... were grass-fed, you know. Sometimes
Daddy would fatten a hog ••• not very often, but
occasionally.
BG: Did you ever have a pig ••• a hog .• . as a pet? My
Mother said once she had a pet pig for a long time. It grew
up and followed her to school. She said it was just as good
MOSS 33
BG: as any dog at protecting her.
M: Well, I've herd that pigs, you know, are very smart and
that they make good pets.
ES: You know, if we raised ? how smart they are.
(laughter)
PG: Did you have chickens, too?
M: Yes. We always had chickens for eggs. In the back,
the chicken house ... the old chicken house is still there.
It surprises me because it looks .•. looked like it would
blow away when we still lived there, but it's still
standing. I don't know if you went down toward the
well, toward .•. west of the house. There was a fence
around this area, and a little shed there where the chickens
roosted.
PG: I hate to be rushed on things, and it was a bus trip,
where we had an allotted amount of time and at least we got
to walk around the old homestead, and the walls were up at
that time and the frame door. We went underneath there to
BG: pretty bad shape, but part of the walls were up.
And that door .•. frame door.
M: Well, actually, it's been that way for years because
they knocked the rest of it down . •. ? And what they did
with the logs, I don't know. I'd like to have had them, but
I didn't have any place to put them. You know.
PG: You couldn't get one as a memento, too. Life is
frustrating sometimes.
MOSS 34
BG: Where would you store 25 foot logs?
M: I don 't know. I couldn't figure that one out.
PG: Around the flower bed, I think.
(everyone at once)
BG: A fellow who had been a circus man, an acrobat, a nd he
had some of his circus paraphenalia, and he said there was
always a problem how to store it until they finally opened
the Hertzberg Circus Museum in town, so he could donate his
stuff to them as someplace to keep it.
PG: In case we missed that ..• about going to the dances
and what clothes you were taking, would you tell us again
about riding horseback when a neighbor had a dance.
M: Well, of course, I didn't do this. It was my mother,
father, in the earlier days would put their dress in the
saddlebag and take off, maybe 20 miles to the neighbor's
ranch where the dance was to be held. And I'm sure they all
probaby took food . Well, I don't know. I guess they
carried food if they could.
PG: If they had it.
M: Yes. And of course, the host prepared food and they'd
eat and dance.
PG: And you said your mother played her own piano if they
came to your home.
M: Yes. If they came to her house, she played the piano
for them to dance.
PG: I guess they danced outside then.
M: Well, .•.
MOSS 35
PG: There wasn't that much room in the house, was there?
M: Usually there were porches. I know ... I've seen .•. I
have pictures of where my grandfather lived, and that was
.•• they lived in Green Gulch when they first moved here ••.
Brewster County ..• and I told you that a lot of people were
living in the Basin at that time, and up Green Gulch and
around the surrounding area. So I ... they probably had
more dances there than anywhere else. And since she had the
piano too, I imagine, that was a .. they had a lot. They
had a porch ••. porches .•• front and back. The front porch
made an L, so there would have been a lot of room to dance.
PG: Was there a swing on the porch? Do you remember?
M: Yes. Oh, yes.
PG: Always.
ES: ... ? My mother •.. I don't recall whether she
played the piano, or a friend of hers but she said the
problem was being the girl who played the piano never got to
dance.
M: Well, that was •• yes, that was the problem. I can see
that.
BG: But I wonder if you heard your mother .•. remember
hearing your mother say anything about that?
M: I can't remember. I ... Daddy wasn't a very good
dancer. He was not musical at all. So maybe that helped.
PG : Did she sing to you too ... when she played?
M: Sometimes.
MOSS 36
PG: We're singing to our little grandbaby now. It's been
so much fun. She ' s 6 months old, and it's amazing what
music means to people. And it's just fun, because she's
caught on right away, and her little feet are kicking ...
M: six months
PG: So I imagine music probably ... I don't know when •..
working on a farm ... you had energy to play the piano. And
evidently it was at night after the children went to bed or
something .•• that you would have time. 'Cause most of the
time during the daylight hours, you were making jelly or
just doing something. Did you have the .•• oh, the bush
that has the berries on it right now? Lots of those? Did
she make jelly? [ Agarita ?
M: Yes. We didn't have any where we lived, not •.. but
over around Green Gulch, there were a lot. So
PG: You had your own fruit trees, though, so she'd be
processing those. What did she put them in ..• Did she have
j ars?
M: Glass jars. She would can hundreds •.• hundreds of
quarts. All year, you know, I really wonder how we ate it
all up. But she would give it away, you know,
PG: And they'd exchange. Somebody else had a different
kind of tree or ••. agarita jelly is what I was trying to
think about
M: That's good, but we didn't have .•. there were a few of
those. In fact, there are a couple of bushes down there
now, I noticed the last time I was down there. But not
enough to make jelly.
MOSS 37
PG: They say you don't stick your fingers in those. You
shake them out on a blanket or sheet or something
underneath.
M: 'Course we used to eat them, you know. Prowl around
and hunt for them, but
PG: What did you find that you liked to eat and chew on
when you went on your hikes? Were there little berry bushes
around that •.• ?
M: Well, cactus, you know ... in season, of course. It
didn't last too long. And petayas ••• those were about the
only edible things.
PG: I've often wondered who tested out the poisonous ones
and found out you weren't supposed to eat them.
M: I imagine children tried them all out.
PG: Yes.
BG: Swiss family Robinson had a monkey to check things out
on, but you didn't have monkeys .••
M: We didn't have a monkey. I imagine we were told which
ones not to eat ••. what to touch.
PG: Back to your mother and music. If you memorize music,
you can play it without looking at it, so at night when it
was dark she could play.
M: She played by ear a lot, too, so
PG: Well, a lot of people do ... and that's easy to dance
to.
M: At dances, I'm sure that's what she did.
PG: Did they discover oil down in that area at all?
MOSS 38
M: No.
PG: It was the springs that were your liquid gold.
ES: Much more important.
M: Uh huh. Yes, it surely was at that time. But some of
the water was not very good to drink.
PG : Did she boil it ••• most of the time .,. before you
drank it?
M: No. Our water was .•. well, I don't know if you noticed
my teeth. Too much chlorine in the water, you know. Of
course, we didn't know that at the time.
BG: Darkens them, but it sure prese rve s them.
M: Yes. I didn't have any cavities until I left the area.
PG: Well, that's true of a lot of Texas people. Their
teeth were excellent because their water had so many
minerals.
M: But it was soft water. It was , you know ...
BG: Soft water?
M: Pardon?
BG: Well water, but it was soft. Interesting. Well, well,
M: We thought it was good ... thought it tasted awful
good.
PG: Was it cool? Most of the time, coming up through the
springs ••.
M: Yes.
BG: Yes, the water you're used to tastes good. I remember
somebody who'd been in China Station in the old days •..
MOSS 39
BG: they always got the coolies to do the hard work, like
scraping the sides of the ship, and so forth ..• and on a
hot day on the river ... it got hot on the river he was
scraping away and probably got thirsty so they offered him
some water from the ship ..• distilled water ••• "Hm ••. no
good." Dipped in the river.
M: Better for him.
ES: Did you ever have electricty in your home?
M: No, we didn't. When I was about 10, I guess it was, we
got carbide lights. Before that, of course, we had coal oil.
And then at some point we used gasoline lanterns which gave
good light.
BG: Yes, they do.
M: Carbide was nice because it was more convenient.
BG: Less fire hazard.
M: It didn't give very brilliant light, but soft light.
BG: There were so few people, I doubt they ever ran
telephone lines down there. Not enough people to support
it.
M: After the raid on Glenn Springs, they ran a telephone
line down there, so there was a telephone at my
grandfather's house where my uncle was living at that time.
But I don't know that we ever used it. It was 15 miles from
our house to theirs, so if it was an emergency, we went on
to town. And then they didn't keep it in repair very long
either, after
PG: .,. the raid was over with.
MOSS 40
ES: Do you know about when Big Bend Telephone came into the
area?
M: Oh, it was much later.
ES: I know it was much later; I was just ...
M: I've got their book at home, but I don't know .•• but
I'm sure that would tell. Do you have a copy of that ...
Neville Hyanes's (?) book?
ES: No. I wasn't even aware that he'd done one.
M:
ES:
Yes. He did. Cecelia Thompson wrote it for him.
That was •.• I know he got rid of the museum before ...
Very intesting ••• this local telephone company which runs
lines out to the ranches, which of course, the man who owned
it had a little telephone museum .•• It was quite
interesting •.. Who did he finally give it to? ••. San
Antonio, didn't he?
M: I don't know. I really wasn't aware that ... I thought
he still had some of that.
ES: No.
M: Well, that's too bad he didn't keep it in the area.
PG: You have a museum here at Sul Ross, too, that I'd like
to see, too. We didn't have much time, but we were so
thrilled that we finally could get together and have a visit
with you and find out some more about this area. Because
we ' ve been back a number of times we've got three
children and they enjoyed it from the time they were in
grade school on up. So we've really watched it grow and
as I said .. your highway here has been worked on so well.
MOSS 41
PG: And the different volunteer groups who keep the streets
M: Did you go down toward Terlingua on ... through there?
PG: We did on a bus tour ... two years ago?
BG: Not quite ... getting close to it though.
M: They're improving that road. Of course, it's always
been so narrow ... it was a farm to market road ... when
they built it.
PG: Well, we went above the run of the water .. the
short-day 's trip, and picnicked midway down ... the raft
trip ... and one lady put her hand in her jacket and hit a
yellow jacket, and he's allergic to bees stings, and we just
happened to have his medicine with us, and the fellow took a
poultice ••• made a poultice of clay , and just put it on the
sting , to pullout the venom as much as possible, and then
she decided she'd take a dramamine tablet, and her wrist
stayed swollen quite a while , and her hand too it's a
good thing we had some kind of medication to work with. But
that was a beautiful road down to the river.
M: Where did you ••• where did you float?
BG: What do they call that village they've ••• a rich man
from somewhere invested in building up this resort place ..•
Lajitas ..• that's where we stayed overnight there. They
drove us up the river X miles and it was a half-day trip
from on the raft ... a half-day trip on the raft to where
they let us off to get back home.
PG: And we went to the old Indian place where they rounded
MOSS 42
PG: up cattle and/or horses and put them inside .••
BG: Rock fence.
PG: Yeah •.. a fenced area . And we walked into a canyon
and .•• to where that was ... and you could get high up on
one of the peaks, and look over the area. It was
fascinating, but it was a hideaway for the Indians to
escape.
BG: When the raiders came down from up here to down there
and raided the poor Mexican people .. , stole their horses
and so forth and they corralled them in there before they
came back up, across the river this way.
PG: Works both ways, evidently, on the river. Who takes
what. Well, it's a tough place to live. But it sure is a
beautiful and fascinating one.
M: Yes. It is pretty, I think. It's kinda harsh.
PG: Right now, we could tell you've had some rain because
on the way up here, verbena was blooming and the yellow
cactus and
M: I don 't know when it rained.
BG: When the grass on the shoulders is green ...
M: It's greener down there, around Terlingua, than
BG: Well, when we came from San Antonio on 90 •.•
PG: You know Langtry to Marathon .••
M: Was it green?
BG: Yes.
M: Well, maybe it's rained down there.
PG: So you may just have missed it and been on the fringes
MOSS 43
PG: of the so-called storm that I thought we were driving
into rain.
BG: The way they talked about it in San Antonio, we didn't
know if we'd even see you ~or the rain out here.
PG: So you missed it completely. Then you don't get rain
until August now?
ES: Well, we get rain all summer , but down there, I guess,
you say ...
M: Well , mainly. If we have a rainy season , it's in late
August or September or sometimes in the spring ••. sometimes
in June.
BG: Something like California •.• once a year.
M: 'Course it can rain, other times, but you just don't
count on it.
PG: No. I was watching the clouds, coming up •.. as we
drove here and it looked like a lot of turbulence.
M: I~ell, we have some good clouds, but a lot of wind.
think the wind just blew it away.
PG: Good for painters, but not for growing things.
M: Right.
I
ES: I remember when we went down ••. Easter , one time ••.
and .•• south of here on 118, and down just before Study
Butte, we had to wait for a creek to run down, and
unusual ... everybody told us how unusual it was for a creek
to be up in .•• oh, sometime in April .
M: Kinda early for creeks to be on the rise.
PG: So there's a lot of low-water crossings around this
area.
MOSS 44
M: They're about to do away with them, I think, or trying
to, but I noticed, I don't know if you went the Marathon
road, they've got so many culverts lined up there along
I don't know where they're going to put them all, but I
guess they think they know. And of course, we used to .•.
PG: Wait for them
M: Major creeks, of course, the Tornillo and the
Maravillas, where you had to sit and wait for hours for it
to go down.
BG: Low water crossing ... you have to think about that •. ,
because actually it's a high water crossing isn't it? The
high water, you don't cross. Low water, why, it's a low
crossing and there's water there .•. English language is
confusing. (laughter)
ES: Well, I've known days when I couldn't go to school
because I couldn't get across a creek.
M: You didn't mind that at all, did you?
ES: Naw ••• I'd rather go to school than work. Had to go
to the field. ..? plow. Always work to do around the
place.
PG: When you plowed a field, did you do it with a hoe? Is
that what you're talking about •.. or taking an animal and
working with a scythe or something? A plow.
ES: Well, we used a regular horse-drawn cultivator, but of
course, if it had been raining, it was probably too wet to
use that, and we'd have to get in the field. As I say, I
always worked around the house
MOSS 45
BG: Harness to mend •.. fences to mend
ES: And the interminable job on a farm or ranch of keeping
the fences up. And that many miles of fences ...
M: Digging post holes is no fun.
PG: Did your dad ride the 22 acres, to check his fence
lines?
ES: Sections?
PG: Sections.
M: Oh, yes, regularly.
ES: Riding fence was regular
M: Yes.
ES: Just like .•• ?
J: That's right. If you had a little rain too, you know,
the water gaps wopuld go and the cattle would get out and
you certainly had to check ..• well, you always had to check
You never knew when the fence would fall down for some
reason .•• something knock it over.
PG: Well, we have so many insects now that seem to eat so
many of the vegetables , and I've often wondered if it's
tough now with all the snails and slugs and all ... and
chewing things
M: We didn't have well, I won't say we didn't have any
I know Mother would sometimes put ashes or something
like that on her garden, but nothing ever bothered the fruit
trees. We didn't have any •••
PG: Insects that
M: Or borers or anything like that down at the ranch.
Never troubled by anything like that.
MOSS 46
PG: Well , that stand of asparagus, too. Your dad had to
get some asparagus from someplace. That was a good,
healthy-looking vegetable.
M: Well , I don't know how it survived all these years.
But they always had a garden.
PG: He had a green thumb.
M: Well, it was just a necessity in those days. You had
to have a garden because you didn 't have acess to fresh
vegetables.
PG: To survive.
M: Much of the time we didn't have fresh meat because we
couldn't keep meat in the summer •••
PG : I wondered if you smoked it.
M: I think he tried a time or two, but normally we didn 't
he'd hang it up in the winter and it would dry, and keep
for months like that. And then of course, we shared with
the neighbors, and so
PG: So if you butchered the whole animal you'd share it
usually with somebody else.
M: Usually. Of course, we had canned meats but that .•.
PG: They had to be packed in •••
BG: We certainly don't want t o overburden you with this
sort of thing. If you have something else you want to say,
we ' ve got more tape to do it on, but we also .•. we're
willing to call it quits anytime you ' re ready.
M: Well, I think I've told you everything I can think of.
PG: You've been charming, and we certainly have enjoyed
MOSS 47
PG: finding out what the good old days were like for you.
M: But it was fun.
PG: For the benefit of th person doing the transcribing,
that was Mrs. Moss we were interviewing. Dr. Speck ••. Dr.
Ernest Speck was in there a lot with his voice. My wife,
and I sometimes said something .. , Bill Gregg. It looks
like this is the end of the tape for this particular time.
So thank you very much •..
END OF SIDE 2, ABOUT 23 MINUTES.

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INTERVIEW WITH:
DATE:
PLACE:
INTERVIEWERS:
THE INSTITUE OF TEXAN CULTURES
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM
Julia Nail Moss and Dr . Ernest Speck
May 9, 1988
Alpine, Texas
Bill and Precious Gregg
M: My name was Julia Nail and I married John M. Moss. And
I was born in Marathon , Texas.
BG: Marathon? Close by. And I 'm Bill Gregg, and you
identify yourself
PG: I'm Precious Gregg, Bill Gregg's wife, and Julia, I
think if you sit over here . Do you mind? Over on the sofa?
Be closer. Your voice is so beautifully soft, and we have
to be careful about that • . •
M: It is soft ... doesn't carry well.
BG: We're about to say something about the Hendrick's Place
down at Big Bend.
PG : The Nail place , Bill.
BG: Was it the Nail place? The Nail place, down at Big
Bend. Would you like to tell us about that?
M: When the Park first took it over, they ..• it was
labeled the Old Ranch. And that may ... I don't know
whether that's when you visited •.. did you just
PG: I didn't remember the name, Nail.
M: So they have added it recently.
BG: Oh, I see.
,~
MOSS 2
M: You know, in the beginning they wiped out all signs of
civilization there. That was their aim. And they kept
changing their goals, I expect.
PG: Well, to me it ws like a little oasis.
BG: It was definitely
M: And it was. It really was. Of course, it's nothing
like it used to be. Of course, it was all cleared off. All
that brush.
PG: Well, they had just the wall? Just the side of the
wall?
M: But they knocked it down.
PG: Oh, did they?
M: Yes, they did. It really ... I don't think ..• they
said it was structurally unsound, but I don't think that's
true at all. Not at the time. Of course, by now it would
have been . But that was just their policy at that time.
And now they're beginning to try to restore some of the ...
PG: ?
M: But it was al l cleared. Dad had ••• always had fields
where he grew feed or alfalfa or something.
PG: How big an a rea did it comprise? Was it acres?
M: Oh, yes. And I really don't know. But a good size
field.
PG: And it was in a low spot, so it would get the run off
of any water that came down.
M: They irrigated it for a time when he first .•• when
they first moved down there. And of course the tank ... he
MOSS 3
M: irrigated it from a dirt tank. And the orchard that he
planted .•• had quite a sizeable orchard.
PG: What time ... What year was that?
M: They moved •.• must have moved over there about he
came to this country in 1909. But he first lived on the
east side of the Chisos Mountains in ••. close to Dugout and
then later on, at Pine Canyon [called Nail Canyon at that
time]. And then he moved over to the west side, and I don't
know, must have been some time in 1914 •.. 1916, somewhere
along in there. I never heard ••. never really thought of
it ... you know, you don't think about these things when
you're growing up.
PG: No. And some people don't write dates, so ..•
BG: It's not important at the time.
M: No. You never dream that your parents ••• INTERRUPTION
IN TAPE.
M: I guess ..•
BG: It came up about a lot of the boy children seemed to be
dying, and we were curious if there was any connection
between that or happened to be listed that way .•.
PG: You lost a brother?
M: Yes.
PG: How old was he?
M: He was nine.
PG: Nine?
BG: And you said when he was small, you called him Tack
instead of Nail? Some of his classmates called him 'Bob
Tack.'
MOSS 4
PG: Please tell us some more now. He's got the recorder on
now ..
M: I've forgotten where I was.
BG: Well, we talked about the place down in the Big Bend
area .•. the old Nail place. And so, it certainly isn't
limited to Big Bend or any other one subject. We have both
sides of the tape, if you want to talk that long.
PG: Do tell us about the house and what you remember then.
Where you all played as children .•.
M: Well, the house was adobe, you know. It was in those
days
PG: Uh huh. Adobe brick .•.
M: You know, they didn't even have cars when they built
the house, so they had Mexican labor to build a house of
adobe, and it was just a two room house to start with , and
never was very fancy, even when we left there, but it was
comfortable. Cool , you know. And later on they added a
sleeping porch and a kitchen , out of lumber.
PG: Did it have a big mesquite tree for shade? Seems to me
M: No. There were lots of willow trees. See, it was
sub-irrigated. Water was very shallow. And so these trees,
I'm sure, had their roots down there. In fact, the pecan
trees that are still there, you know , they would be dead by
now if they didn't have some water, because nobody's watered
them the rest of the orchard died. The pecan trees
that are close to the well are still alive, and one of those
MOSS 5
M: pecan trees was a pecan planted from a pecan that
Mr. Townsend gave Daddy. It was one of the Jim Hogg pecans
from Austin. It was great. And the other one, Mrs. Hopkins
gave him. I think there's three trees there, but anyway,
maybe she gave him two. Gave him some peacns, and I don't
know where they came from •••
PG: Was that when Mr. Hogg was governor?
M: No. No. It was after his death. You know, he ... I've
forgotten the tale. He planted the .. , he wanted a walnut
at his head, was it? A pecan at his foot, and .•• (everyone
talking a once) the nuts were to be distributed around
the state. That's his ... There's a .•. I can't remember
the story, but it's •.•
PG: That's the backg round of his receiving one of them?
BG: I've never heard that before, but then my background is
Georgia. Precious is the Texan .
PG: Yes, I was born in Austin.
M: What was your great-grandfather's name?
PG: Ujffy . From La Grange.
M: I've read a lot about that area.
PG: There was a Judge Steele, and when Mr. Ujffy died, his
wife married Judge Steele, but then she was buried with my
grandfather, as Ujffy, in the cemetery.
M: That's interesting . I've read a lot about that area
because that's •.. my great-grandfather was one of Austin's
old 300 and he settled in that area. But ...
PG: How many children were in your family?
MOSS 6
M: Just the two of us.
PG: Just the two.
M: I was really just an only child.
PG: Well, you really got to work and help.
M: Well, of course, it was ... it was lonesome after my
brother died. I was still ... I was seven. But we had
close neighbors after the Wilsons moved to Oak Canyon • . •
about two miles away.
PG: How did you go to visit them ••• by horseback?
M: Horseback. Uh huh.
PG: What kind of horses did you all have? Were they wild
ponies that you tamed?
M: Oh, no. No. They were ••• there really weren't any wild
horses in the country at that time. But Daddy ... he liked
horses •.• he liked to raise horses. So we had quarter
horses. Of course, they were not , you know, race horses,
PG: No. You didn't need to race.
M: But he liked to raise horses, and he had grown up as a
farmer, so he really , I think that's ••• not many people
down in that area ...
PG: ..• And learned how to be farmers.
BG: Do you recall the first car that came .•. that your
folks had?
M: Yes, but I don't really remember when we got it. I
just •.. I was pretty small.
BG: Anything about it? Do you remember, perhaps, what kind
it was?
,
MOSS 7
M: It was a Model T.
BG: A Model T. That's strange. (laughter)
PG: Well, did you use wagons to transport things?
M: Before the cars , uh huh. But I can't remember that
period. I can remember going horseback, of course, but I
don't know when we got the car. But I was pretty small
then. My first recollections of going to town was ••. it
took all day. Or virtually al l day.
PG: Where was town? Hhich
M: Marathon .
PG: Marathon, oh, that would be quite a trip.
BG: Yes.
M: But you see, Marathon or Alpine had to be ..•
PG: Did your Dad have to build his own road to get to
Marathon?
M: Oh, yes .
PG: The road itself?
M: For many years.
PG: And that was a lot of rocks.
M: You'd just get out and build road as we went along.
And scotch up the hill .•. after we got the Model T. Of
course, I didn't do much scotching , but I remember the older
ones doing it.
PG: Do you remember weather very much? Did you have bad
storms that came down?
M: Not really. The only one time I remember that it
rained real hard,and water was so ..• came down by our house
, .
MOSS 8
M: so much that my mother opened the windows and let it
in, and that was a mistake but she thought it was going to
wash the adobes away, I guess. I don't know why. She was
frightened. And so it didn't do the floors any good.
PG: Or anything inside either.
M: And then after that, why, Daddy built a kind of a dam
PG: A wall.
M: ... to di vert the water from the house. Because we
were situated right under a hill. And I guess the water
just all came down in spots instead of spreading out.
PG: That's a beautiful spot, though. It's such a nice
green spot in the middle of the ... is it in the Chihuahuan
Desert?
M: Oh, yes.
PG: And here's this green spot with a house and a home and
growing vegetables, too.
BG: They kept the windmill working .•. that's why the
water's still flowing.
M: Yes, they have. But they haven't really made any
effort to water the ..• plants or anything ...
BG: No, no. Just the pipe, and there it is.
M: Which they needed to do for the animals.
PG: Oh, yes, keep water for them.
M: The ranch we had was a well- watered, as far as having a
lot of springs. They were not strong springs, but they were
enough, you know, f or the stock. Daddy always kept them
MOSS 9
M: cleaned out (the springs).
ES: Not now. Those springs are dry enough to stick a bed
in. Gee, it's dry.
PG: Do you remember how large an orchard it ws, because
there weren't too many fruit trees grown in that area, I'm
sure.
M: No, there were not. It seemed big to me. I know we
had huge plum trees, and some pear trees, and a lot of
peaches.
PG: Did you have any citrus ..• like orange? Or lemons?
M: No. I'ms sure they had tried it, but it's just too cold
for citrus.
BG: It makes a difference.
M: Now over in Fresno Canyon they used to have orange
trees, but that was quite a ways south, you know.
BG: When you all moved from there, where did you go? When
you left the ranch?
M: The in what's now the game preserve. It used to be
the old Walker Place. Otto Walker and the Walker family
lived in this country in the early days. And after that we
moved over to Chalk Draw, to the Schuler place •.• Noland
Schuler's place.
BG: That's still in Big Bend?
M: Yes. They didn't leave the Big Bend.
BG: Summer then was more inviting than it is these days.
Whoooeee.
PG: Well, we're just fascinated •.• (someone enters )
MOSS 10
PG: Ernest, welcome to the conversation. Can you think o f
anything we've not asked?
ES : Well , I haven't been around the whole time, but one of
the things that I'm curious about is since this is virtual ly
a treeless region, in a lot of ways, what did you do for
someth ing to burn in stoves , and what-not?
M: Oh, it's very plentiful. We burned mesquite.
ES: There's plenty of mesquite around.
M: Plenty of mesquite. Mesquite roots. Of course, you
have to hunt for it, you know. You don't know ...
ES : I think what happened was that after grazing ate up all
the grass, the droughts came after that, I believe, so up to
that time you had some grass and some trees.
M: Well, actually, it wasn't all that d i fferent . We had
droughts when I was growing up. And , you know, periods of
rain •.. peiods of drought ••. is just the way this country
is.
BG: Grass is all gone now. Mesquites too, unless you get
to an oasis, or old ranch ...
M: Well , you know , if you'll notice the mesquites are
always .•• they're just blooming now like crazy. Now, I
wondered about that.
PG: Do you know if the Indians had moved there first,
before your dad?
M: Oh, yes. There were lots of signs.
PG: they knew that there was water there.
M: Yes.
MOSS 11
PG: That was a spot that attracted people.
M: And about a mile from our house, to the north, was a
place that we called the Cottonwoods .•• there's still
cottonwood trees there. And springs. There's a little
house there. I don't know who built the house, but I'm sure
that my father and his brother ..• they were the ones that
built there originally I'm sure they lived there at
first until they got their house built.
ES: That area that's known as the Cottonwoods now, is it a
campground near Castelon?
M: No, I don't think so. This would have been just a mile
from our house, and there were lots of signs of Indians
there •.• the? flints. In fact, some things were dug
up there. I don't know exactly what was taken out. Ray
Miller used to do this for the Witte Museum. In fact, he
married a lady who worked there, Leona Worley, her name was.
And they dug some things there and took them, but I'm not
sure just what all was found ... arrowheads and
PG: Archaeologists have been very active, even north on the
Austin Highway, before they did that in San Antonio, they
found an Indian encampment.
M: There were several places where there were, you know,
Indians ••. Indian campsites that you could tell.
PG: Well, that must have been fun for you if you had
chances to roam around and find something.
M: Yes. That was one of our favorite pastimes. I still
like rocks.
MOSS 12
BG: I think we passed up a question that you had a while
ago. You mentioned about the mesquite trees blooming and
you said something about, "I wonder ••. "
M: Well, I just wonder how they can bloom so profusely in
such a dry spring when nothing else can grow. There may be
a reason for that. I thought maybe that would be the only
thing for the stock to live on during the dry season. I
don't know. That just came to my mind.
ES: What sort of cattle did you have?
M: Well, my father had black Angus when he moved to this
country. But that didn't do well. He was a small rancher
and everybody else had Herefords. So, unless you could sell
a carload, you see, of cattle of the same kind, nobody would
buy them. The buyers ..• Because they wanted to start a
herd, I guess.
ES: No, the buyers from a meat company.
at once)
(everybody t a lking
M: so he finally had to ..• had to start over and buy
Herefords. But he didn't think they did well in this
country, you know. They are subject t o a lot of diseases.
ES: I was wondering just when blooded cattle came in ... If
ranchers pretty well started with blooded cattle out here?
M: Here they did, I guess. Now, I don't know before 1900,
I suppose there were some
BG: .•• longhorn stuff?
M: I imagine. Mexico cattle, they're called.
ES: Well, what about ... you mentioned a while ago the ...
MOSS 13
ES: lots of Mexican labor ... or making use of them ...
Mexican labor a good deal ... what about any of the troubles
that went on in Mexico, did they ... ?
M: Well, I've heard .•. I don't remember any of that
but I've heard a lot about it. My father said that he went
to Glenn Springs on the day after the raid, I believe it
was. In fact, my mother's cousin had corne by and wanted him
to go down there with him that day, but he was busy and so
they went the next day, in time there was still some
shooting going on and looting. And he always laughed and
said, he killed a dog and shot a hole through a woman's hat.
He liked to joke.
PG: Which raiding group was that that carne up?
M: Well, that was Pancho Villa's men, they said. I don't
know. Surely he wasn't with them, but
PG: Well, they were chasing him for a long time, but they
never did catch him.
ES: I've always wondered •• there seemed to be •.. it's
certainly not a heavily populated area, yet there seemed to
be many more people living across the river.
M: At that time?
ES: And even now.
M: Well, there are a lot more people living on this side,
too.
ES: Yeah, but I mean, little villages and what not.
M: Yes. Well, there were a lot of little villages then,
you know. Water. I'm sure that's what drew the people that
MOSS 14
M: came here ... there was a little strip of dirt that was
good and water there, so I guess that's why all those
villages sprung up. I suppose.
PG: Was there any problem with crossing the Rio Grande into
Mexico? Did they ever ask for a visa or patrol the border
in those days?
M: Of course, there were a few but they were pretty
scarce. No , I'm sure they were never
never did unless we had reason to.
PG: To buy stuff over there?
of course, we
M: Uh huh. But ... usually to hunt for help .•. for l abo r
was the reason that you went to ••• the River.
PG: Do you remember or have any idea how much they paid the
workers just food and lodging?
M: Oh, they paid them a little something, but ...
PG: Just a small amount.
M: I don't ••.
BG: Everything was small compared to today.
M: You had asked about the house. I was going to tell you
that the house was built, you know, Mexican syyle, with the
beams in the ceiling and instead of river cane which was
used usually, we used sotol poles . But the logs in the
ceiling carne from the Chisos , in the basin. And they were
drug out by Mexicans and a burro, I think. You drug them
out, you know. They were long, long ••.
PG: That's a long haul from up there down to the valley.
M: Yes, it was.
MOSS 15
PG: They would have been well shined by the time they got
here. Do you remember how long those beams were?
M: I suppose the house was probably at l east 20 feet wide,
so they would have had to be at least 25 or 26 feet.
PG: And tell us again how many rooms it ended up being?
You said you had
M: Well, it started out two adobe rooms, and they added a
long sleeping porch and the kitchen ••. out of lumber.
PG: Was the kitchen separate from the house itself, or was
it enclosed
M: No, it was attached.
ES: Not one of those southern plantation ideas?
M: No . Not quite. It was pretty primitive.
PG: How warm was it in wintertime?
M: Very warm.
PG: Because of the adobe brick.
M: Yes, they are really the most comfortable houses in
this country, I think. Of course, they heated it with a
fireplace, and we did have a stove later on in the other
room, because I went to school on the ranch for three years ,
and so that was my school room •.. had a stove in it.
PG: Where did you go to school ..• you mean, right there in
the house?
M: I had a governess. It was during the depression years ,
you know. Everybody that lived down in that country had to
either have a place in town or you had to rent. And so we
rented part of the time, but then, as I said, fif th, sixth
MOSS 16
M: and seventh grade, I guess, when I had a teacher.
PG: Well, it's wonderful that we wanted to learn so much.
ES: Did she live at your house?
M: Yes. She just taught me ..• I was the only one.
ES: You were the only one, huh?
PG: She didn't bring any children from other families?
M: There weren't any. In those days. They didn't .••
there weren't that many people in the area; they didn't live
that close together, and it wasn 't as easy to drive from one
place to another as it is now.
PG: Was she a young person ••• an older person?
M: Well , I had three different ones actually. One was
the first one was very young •.• she was 17 ... and then the
last one was an older lady ... a very respected teacher who ,
I think she was the first person to get her masters from SuI
Ross. She had a Master's Degree and I don't know what we
paid her, but very little. And then later she taught the
Wilson children at their house.
ES: Let's see, you weren't in a one-room schoolhouse; you
were in a four-room schoolhouse , weren't you. ( laughter)
M: Yes. This woman was Florence Pope, and she taught the
Wilson chi ldren ••. and later on she taught in Terlingua and
in Monahans. There's a school and a street named for her in
Monahans. She was a wonderful teacher.
PG: Some people incredibly had pianos. I ' ve often wondered
how they ever carried a piano from Europe all the way to
Texas.
MOSS 17
M: My mother had one, and it .,. we often used to tell ...
my daughter has it now, but it's .•• it was pretty well beat
up, from bouncing all the way around in a wagon. But my
mother played, and tried to teach me, but I never wasn't
very musical.
PG: Somebody has to appreciate music. Then did you go off,
after your high school equivalent .•• did you go off to
college, then or did you go to home-making or just learned
at home?
M: Well, no, I went to SuI Ross. Let's see, I went three
years on the ranch and then I went a year in San Antonio .,.
stayed with some aunts ... and then I stayed with another
aunt in Marathon for I year; then my mother stayed with me
the last 2 years till I finished high school. And then I
came to SuI Ross. And then I •• , after a few more years,
then I went off to library school. That's what I did most
of my life.
PG: We love .• , I have a sister that's a librarian, and so
and my mother was on the library board in Austin for 40
years, and just loved it. She helped develop the auxiliary
stations •.. branches, that they had.
BG: Were you a librarian in this area?
M: Well, I was a cataloguer at SuI Ross for 24 years.
PG: That's what kept them straight. (laughter) So you
really have contributed to the ..•
BG: You've been in Alpine, then, for a fairly long period
of time.
M: Well, we lived in Brewster County ... well, not all my
MOSS 18
M: life, but most of it. Because we don't consider that
Marathon is that far removed you know.
BG: It isn't far at all.
M: But ... I worked in Del Rio for a time. I worked in
Washington D.C. during World War II, and later in
Philadelphia because I got my library degree there.
PG: Oh, you did.
BG: What I was really getting at is ... of course the span
of years we're discussing isn't all that much, in relation
to, say, a hundred years. Nevertheless, it was some time
ago when you were first here in Alpine, and I wonder if
there's anything interesting you can recall that's changed
now ... that's not the same as it used to be. Not like the
"good old days." Can you remember anything like that? A
movie house or anything at all?
M: WeLl, there are lots of things that have changed.
Basically I remember more about Marathon
changed.
BG: Well, all right. Marathon's close.
.how it's
M: Because they had a bank and a movie house and a dry
cleaners, and you know, there's just nothing there now, so.
BG: The fire came through •.. grass fire.
PG: And lots of fire trucks, too, so I imagine the
Volunteer Fire Department ...
M: Yes.
BG: That's interesting. Marathon, of course, it had to be
a town in those days, right? Now it's just two or three gas
MOSS 19
BG: stations.
M: Right.
ES: And the Gage Hotel.
M: The Gage Hotel. Of course , that's been there a good
while too, but not .•• I can pretty well remember when it
was built.
PG: Was that kind of the end of the railroad?
M: Oh , no, it was the middle, I guess .
ES: Seems to me the Gage was built in ...
M: '28, I believe.
ES: I was going to say, somewhere in the mid 20s or a
little later, yeah.
M: So I was ... I was born in 1921, so I can remember when
it was built.
PG: Did you go to birthday parties with the other children?
You talk about the Wilsons.
M: Well, on the ranch , no, not really. The fact is, I
don't remember going to that many birthday parties when I
was growing up. I don't believe they were as popular then
as they are now. Of course, we always celebrated with our
family birthdays, but ••.
PG: And did you gather the family together down on the Nail
Ranch?
M: Well, in the summer we had the family would visit ,
you know. I had two aunts that .•. well, one of them taught
in San Antonio and the other one kept house for her. And
every summer they would come home and visit around, you
know, with their brothers and sisters . They all lived in
MOSS
M:
PG:
M:
PG:
M:
area. And then my cousins would come sometimes.
and brighten things up?
Oh, yes. But there just weren ' t a lot of .•.
Social life?
Right.
20
PG: Well, I think the Chisos have always been a fascinating
part of Texas, and we keep being drawn back to it. And I
imagine San Antonio ... you were talking about San Antonio
with your teacher and glad to come in the summertime and
visit.
M: Of course, there was •.. when Mother and her brothers
and sisters came to this country there apparently were a lot
more people ... at least in the Chisos than there were
later on. There were several families and the ••• (?)
people, and they would have parties, and dances and
PG: Wonder why they left. Has it just too tough?
M: Well, I guess ••• I guess it was just too hard to make
a living. I don't know. I guess they came because they
liked it .•• liked the climate, but there were just too many
people .•. to make a living.
PG: To make a living.
M: I'm wondering how they managed to stay as long as they
did •.• that many families, close together .•. but they
would ride, oh, miles and miles to ... they would have a
dance, you know, at somebody's ranch, and they would pack up
their dresses in their saddlebags and take off, and stay all
night, you know ... dance all night ..• and •..
MOSS
PG: Where did they sleep everybody? At some of those
parties.
M: I don't think they slept ... the children were on
pallets, but
BG: Those pallets, I'm familiar with those.
21
M: You ' ve read ' The Virginian,' haven't you? For
instance, the baby that died? and that they changed the
children's clothes and their mothers mistook their children
.•. got home with the wrong children. That reminds me of
that because I can remember these times when we would sleep
on pallets, you know, just rows of children.
BG: My mother told about that in Lousiana. Pallets.
ES: Yep, I remember that, too.
M: Well , that's what we did here.
PG: That was a real slumber party ••. an early one. Well ,
having clothes you could pack up and still would have them
looking pretty must have been a real challenge.
M: Well, I don't know how pretty they were. They probably
were a little wrinkled when they got there. But I don't
suppose they cared about that.
PG: It was just the spirit of the ..•
M: Maybe they put the irons on, 'cause everybody used old
flat irons you know, and heated them on the stove.
PG: Some of them right here •.•
M: I have some, too.
PG: Did they have a fiddler who played? Or do you remember
what the music was?
M: I guess. I can't remember who they were, but I know
MOSS 22
M: that ..• and of course, sometimes my mother played the
piano, if it was at her house. And one time ... I don't
remember this, but I was told that my Uncle Waddy Burnham
whistled so they could dance.
BG: You'd need a good strong whistle. I never was able to
do that.
ES: I could, till the dentist got hold of me.
M: He ruined your whistle, huh?
PG: Close those teeth together. Did you always wear boots?
M: No. Actually , I never did. Never had a pair of cowboy
boots.
PG: Sandals?
M: No, you didn't wear sandals because ...
PG: Too open?
M: There were too many thorns.
PG: Some of the people corning up from Indianola, we were
told when we went to Panna Maria , that the women, like the
Polish women, had the higher skirts. They weren't the full
length to the ground and of course , they didn't get as
dirty. But they said also, corning through the carrizos,
that they stepped on the snakes and were bitten because they
didn't have the protection of the full length skirt. And
some of the kids who were barefooted, too, said they were so
busy looking up at the sky to see where they were going
through the tall canes, that they didn't realize that there
were rattlesnakes underneath. So , I was just thinking of
protection that maybe your shoes were higher just to protect
MOSS
PG: your feet. Not only from stickers but from snakes,
too.
23
M: Well , when I rode , of course, I always had ... I had
laced boots at one time.
PG: Oh, that was elegance .
M: Uh huh. But ... but we were careful, you know. That
was one of the first things they taught us, was watch out
for snakes. So •.. but it was stickers, I think, that
bothered us more than the ...
PG: And that would have been the deterrant to growing
grass, was the sticker grass.
ES: Did you ride side-saddle when you were a girl?
M: No. In fact, my ... I guess my mother did when she was
growing up •.. but after they came to this country , my
grandfather insisted that they wear •.. ride astride because
he thought it was so much safer.
PG: Oh, yes , you could really hold on so much better.
M: The side saddle was hanging up in the barn over there
at my grandfather's, but I never did see anybody ride it.
It disintegrated.
PGF: Often the wheels I wonder about the wheelwrights
because those wheels sure took a beating going across all
the rocks.
M: Yes, you have to be a pretty good blacksmith to be a
rancher.
PG: Did he have .•• was there a blacksmith in the valley
then that you would go to?
MOSS 24
M: No. My father was a good blacksmith. He had to learn
to do a lot of things. He had to be his own everything. He
was a pretty good carpenter and a good blacksmith.
BG: ... ? forge and all. Did blacksmithing on the place
himself.
M: That's what Daddy did. He had his own forge.
PG: Where did you go, like to a country store to get nails
or something like that? Was it •.• ?
M: We bought everything in Marathon. You had to ... you
did you had to make a list and go over it carefully,
because if you ran out there was just nothing you could do.
PG: Where did they come from originally? You said Europe?
Were they ... ?
M: You mean
PG: Your family.
M: Well, see, my great grandfather came with Austin. He
came from Tennessee. He was born in Kentucky. And then
moved to Tennessee and Texas in 1821 or whatever .•. '21, I
believe it was when he came. And my grandmother came not
quite that early, but her family came, I guess, soon after
the Republic. And my father's people my father was born
in Arkansas. So he didn't come until ... they came to Texas
around
'96 or
I don't remember ••. before the 1900s, probably
PG: People certainly did a lot of traveling in those days.
Bill was just saying how much his family had moved around.
M: Looking for better times, I guess, but I go back now to
MOSS
M: where they used to live, and I wonder why they ever
left •.. why they kept going till they came here.
25
ES: I thought about that. particularly one of my
grandparents, he moved to Texas from Illinois. Apparently
they had one of the rich blackland farms up there.
M: I've often wondered about that. Of course, I know my
folks were poor. They just never could accumulate anything
for some reason. But
PG: Join the crowd.
M: But you wonder, you know, at least the soil was better.
Now this grandfather was on the Colorado, right down there
where the land is good and .•. but he didn't want anybody
around him, and he kept moving up the Colorado River and
finally he died, close to Marble Falls. You know, it's
pretty country, but it's not nearly as good farmland as
(everyone talking at once)
M: But maybe he didn't like •.. I guess he didn't like to
farm. He said ... I guess he liked ranching better, and of
course
PG: Did he ever have sheep, as well as cattle?
M: Well, now this grandfather did (?) (telephone muffles
sound) I'm talking about here?
My father had goats when they were here. After Homer
Wilson came to the country and got rid of the coyotes and
the panthers, then you know, you could have goats. But
before that, it was just impossible.
PG: Well, we saw a lion or panther-type in Big Bend in the
MOSS 26
PG: Chisos ... run across one of the campgrounds.
M: It doesn't take too long. Because nobody bothers them
anymore.
ES: self .. • limiting because there's not that much.
M: Well, not anymore. They killed them all out. The
drought and the ...
ES: Hunting's not allowed, but I mean we don't have too
many of these panthers up there because there's just so many
deer.
M: Oh, but they're thick. There are lots of panthers.
They come all the way to Alpine. There are a lot of them
here that have come in through the park and game preserve.
BG: Interesting. If they're able to migrate, lucky for
them .
PG: What else can you think of?
ES: That was Gene Hendrick's secretary. He got sick so
he's had to cancel out.
PG: Too much celebrating in Austin.
ES: No. He •.• some medication he's taking •.•
PG: Oh, he reacted ••.
ES: Yeah.
PG: Oh, that's too bad. What did you do when you got sick,
down there? Your family had to have their own medicines
available •..
M: Fortunately, we didn't get sick too often. We weren't
exposed to a lot of germs, but yes, we did get sick, and you
just had to doctor yourself. My father was very ill with
MOSS 27
M: flu one time •. they thought he was going to die •••
but I was ••. that's when I was in town. Mother was living
on the ranch, and I was living with an aunt. But he just
got better.
PG: I think the will to survive sometimes is absolutely
remarkable, with some people, and you know you're up against
it, and you tough it out, and make it anyhow.
How many farmhands , or helpers , did he get ..• his
Mexican help?
M: well , we had a small place , so we didn't have .,. Daddy
used ...
PG: You didn't have a foreman or ••• ?
M: No. No. I think our place had about 22 sections , but
you can't run a lot of stock on ... you know, in this
country ... on that. Took a lot of time to ride it out, but
PG: Was it fenced in at all?
M: It was fenced with, you know, three strands of barbwire
fence around it, but after the Wilsons came, we put net
wiring on ••• at least south of us, and so that helped a
lot, because I can remember when Daddy used to have to ride
all the way to the river, you know, because the stock would
get out and fences would get knocked down and the horses .. _
well, particularly ... well, I had a horse too, that would
go back, but he was bought down there, so my horse always
went back home every time he could. But Daddy used to he
used to have to ride all the way to the river ••• you know,
it would take several days. He'd sleep out , eat at whose
MOSS 28
M: ever house he happened to come to.
PG: Did he make things like his own beef jerky to take on
the trips with him?
M: Daddy was not one ..• he wouldn't even carry ... he
never carried a canteen. He would just ..• there were
springs ••.
PG: Well, there was water available.
M: He knew where they were, and he would just .•. he
didn't carry food. He always said it made him thirsty
food, you know, when he was riding. So he would just eat
when he came to a place.
PG: What kind of clothing would he take? Something for
thunder storms and ..•
M: Yeah, he always carried a slicker on the back of his
saddle. And other than that, why ...
PG: And a gun with him too, in case he needed protection?
M: No, I don't think he ever did.
PG: Unless he had to shoot a rattlesnake. I think I'd
carry a gun for that.
M: He evidently had one with him when he went to Glenn
Springs that time, so maybe when they first came they did.
But when I remember, he never did carry a gun, unless he was
hunting.
PG: What kind of wild animals did you have .•. the deer?
Did the deer run on your property very much?
M: Oh, yes, we had many deer and Daddy killed bear in the
Chisos when they first came down here. I don't remember
MOSS 29
M: ever .•.
PG: Did you have a bear rug on your floor?
ES: Just a bare floor. (laughter)
M: Let's see, we had deer, and coyotes, and bobcats. I
have a picture of a bobcat that we •.. that a man killed on
our place. I was about 12 years old at the time, and this
bobcat ... we had him stretched out •.. and he was tall as
I. He was pretty good size. But that was about it.
PG: Quail?
M: Oh , yes.
PG: And wild turkey?
M: No wild turkey in the country at that time. That's a
recent ...
M: They're coming in now ...
PG: They're coming in now. We saw them crossing the road
on the way here to Alpine.
M: I think it's wonderful. 'Course some of them had been
brought in. I don't know exactly where these turkeys are
all coming from. But they are increasing.
PG: Well, we saw some goats on the outside of a fence, and
they had found a hole because they were on the highway s i de .
And there was nobody to notify, and I didn 't tell them at
Marathon. But it was between Langtry and Marathon on
that road, but the highway is excellent now. They have
built that road where you have access to your family ranch.
And that's how we went and walked down the pathway to the
old house structure.
MOSS 30
M: Yes.
PG: Is that the original pathway that you all used?
M: No, it's completely changed.
PG: Not the same at all?
M: Now that ••• part of the path .•. after well, you
noticed the windmill on top of a hill. That was a booster
mill that Daddy used water from our well on top of Buro
Mesa. We had a big galvanized steel storage tank close to
that windmill o n the hill and another one just like it up on
Burro Mesa. He piped water up there and then had, you know,
smaller tanks for the stock. So one of the things I did •.•
I had a place to swim right at the house that most of the
kids didn't have in those days.
PG: Oh, wonderful!
BG: a swimming pool in the backyard!
PG: The back acres.
M: There really wasn't any other place to swim except the
dirt tanks, you know, and they weren't .,. I swam in some,
but they weren't all that pleasant.
PG: Did you go down the river very much? We loved our raft
ride on the river.
M: Of course we didn't do any rafting in those days, but
fish •.• usually once every summer we'd go fishing. Believe
me, it was hot in the summer, but that was the only time we
could get away ... to fish. So we'd go down different
places •.. Santa Elena Canyon ... I remember going there one
time, and various other places on the river.
MOSS
PG: Do you remember seeing just torrents of water going
down the canyon? I don't know when your rainfall is
heaviest up here
31
M: I was never there. It would be in spring and late
summer, I guess. But I don't ... we'd never happened to be
there at those times.
PG: Well , I love to fish, but about all I catch is perch
M: We don't have any perch in the Rio Grande. But they
used to catch some b ig old catfish in there.
BG: It's amazing how fish can stay in a river despite the
freshets and the fl oods that rivers get. Still when it's
all done, there's s till fish around. They hold on to
something.
M: You wonder how they manage , don't you.
PG: Did you see turtles?
M: Yes, turtles and gars
END OF TAPE I, SIDE 1, 45 MINUTES.
SIDE 2.
BG: watching the machine, and it did not click and so
I'm afraid ·we l os t a lot •.. anyway, we're off and running
again.
PG: We'll talk about the cattle drives and the trucks .•.
pick-ups with them, too. would you just .•.
M: Well, of course you know the roads were so bad that,
you know, couldn't get the trucks in until after the highway
really, basically, when the Highway Department began to
MOSS
M: work that road. And that was after the park opened
about the time the park came into being. So that was
32
BG: In other words, it was always a trail drive, and not a
truck operation.
M: Right. Took about a week to get to town.
BG: Guess it did.
M: And usually the laborers ... family and neighbors ••.
would all get together and •••
PG : Would they add their cattle to your dad's cattle, so
they really would be t aking a large group?
M: Yes.
PG: I wonder how much money they got for a cow?
M: I couldn't tell you.
PG: You really wonder about all that hard work. I'll bet
those cattle didn't have much fat on them .
(all talking at once)
And that probably contributed to the physical
well-being, too. That they weren't so fatty. We worry
about cholesterol these days, and by the time they'd drive
them to market, there wouldn't be much fat left.
M: That's true. What we ate of course , we butchered
our own calves ... were grass-fed, you know. Sometimes
Daddy would fatten a hog ••• not very often, but
occasionally.
BG: Did you ever have a pig ••• a hog .• . as a pet? My
Mother said once she had a pet pig for a long time. It grew
up and followed her to school. She said it was just as good
MOSS 33
BG: as any dog at protecting her.
M: Well, I've herd that pigs, you know, are very smart and
that they make good pets.
ES: You know, if we raised ? how smart they are.
(laughter)
PG: Did you have chickens, too?
M: Yes. We always had chickens for eggs. In the back,
the chicken house ... the old chicken house is still there.
It surprises me because it looks .•. looked like it would
blow away when we still lived there, but it's still
standing. I don't know if you went down toward the
well, toward .•. west of the house. There was a fence
around this area, and a little shed there where the chickens
roosted.
PG: I hate to be rushed on things, and it was a bus trip,
where we had an allotted amount of time and at least we got
to walk around the old homestead, and the walls were up at
that time and the frame door. We went underneath there to
BG: pretty bad shape, but part of the walls were up.
And that door .•. frame door.
M: Well, actually, it's been that way for years because
they knocked the rest of it down . •. ? And what they did
with the logs, I don't know. I'd like to have had them, but
I didn't have any place to put them. You know.
PG: You couldn't get one as a memento, too. Life is
frustrating sometimes.
MOSS 34
BG: Where would you store 25 foot logs?
M: I don 't know. I couldn't figure that one out.
PG: Around the flower bed, I think.
(everyone at once)
BG: A fellow who had been a circus man, an acrobat, a nd he
had some of his circus paraphenalia, and he said there was
always a problem how to store it until they finally opened
the Hertzberg Circus Museum in town, so he could donate his
stuff to them as someplace to keep it.
PG: In case we missed that ..• about going to the dances
and what clothes you were taking, would you tell us again
about riding horseback when a neighbor had a dance.
M: Well, of course, I didn't do this. It was my mother,
father, in the earlier days would put their dress in the
saddlebag and take off, maybe 20 miles to the neighbor's
ranch where the dance was to be held. And I'm sure they all
probaby took food . Well, I don't know. I guess they
carried food if they could.
PG: If they had it.
M: Yes. And of course, the host prepared food and they'd
eat and dance.
PG: And you said your mother played her own piano if they
came to your home.
M: Yes. If they came to her house, she played the piano
for them to dance.
PG: I guess they danced outside then.
M: Well, .•.
MOSS 35
PG: There wasn't that much room in the house, was there?
M: Usually there were porches. I know ... I've seen .•. I
have pictures of where my grandfather lived, and that was
.•• they lived in Green Gulch when they first moved here ••.
Brewster County ..• and I told you that a lot of people were
living in the Basin at that time, and up Green Gulch and
around the surrounding area. So I ... they probably had
more dances there than anywhere else. And since she had the
piano too, I imagine, that was a .. they had a lot. They
had a porch ••. porches .•• front and back. The front porch
made an L, so there would have been a lot of room to dance.
PG: Was there a swing on the porch? Do you remember?
M: Yes. Oh, yes.
PG: Always.
ES: ... ? My mother •.. I don't recall whether she
played the piano, or a friend of hers but she said the
problem was being the girl who played the piano never got to
dance.
M: Well, that was •• yes, that was the problem. I can see
that.
BG: But I wonder if you heard your mother .•. remember
hearing your mother say anything about that?
M: I can't remember. I ... Daddy wasn't a very good
dancer. He was not musical at all. So maybe that helped.
PG : Did she sing to you too ... when she played?
M: Sometimes.
MOSS 36
PG: We're singing to our little grandbaby now. It's been
so much fun. She ' s 6 months old, and it's amazing what
music means to people. And it's just fun, because she's
caught on right away, and her little feet are kicking ...
M: six months
PG: So I imagine music probably ... I don't know when •..
working on a farm ... you had energy to play the piano. And
evidently it was at night after the children went to bed or
something .•• that you would have time. 'Cause most of the
time during the daylight hours, you were making jelly or
just doing something. Did you have the .•• oh, the bush
that has the berries on it right now? Lots of those? Did
she make jelly? [ Agarita ?
M: Yes. We didn't have any where we lived, not •.. but
over around Green Gulch, there were a lot. So
PG: You had your own fruit trees, though, so she'd be
processing those. What did she put them in ..• Did she have
j ars?
M: Glass jars. She would can hundreds •.• hundreds of
quarts. All year, you know, I really wonder how we ate it
all up. But she would give it away, you know,
PG: And they'd exchange. Somebody else had a different
kind of tree or ••. agarita jelly is what I was trying to
think about
M: That's good, but we didn't have .•. there were a few of
those. In fact, there are a couple of bushes down there
now, I noticed the last time I was down there. But not
enough to make jelly.
MOSS 37
PG: They say you don't stick your fingers in those. You
shake them out on a blanket or sheet or something
underneath.
M: 'Course we used to eat them, you know. Prowl around
and hunt for them, but
PG: What did you find that you liked to eat and chew on
when you went on your hikes? Were there little berry bushes
around that •.• ?
M: Well, cactus, you know ... in season, of course. It
didn't last too long. And petayas ••• those were about the
only edible things.
PG: I've often wondered who tested out the poisonous ones
and found out you weren't supposed to eat them.
M: I imagine children tried them all out.
PG: Yes.
BG: Swiss family Robinson had a monkey to check things out
on, but you didn't have monkeys .••
M: We didn't have a monkey. I imagine we were told which
ones not to eat ••. what to touch.
PG: Back to your mother and music. If you memorize music,
you can play it without looking at it, so at night when it
was dark she could play.
M: She played by ear a lot, too, so
PG: Well, a lot of people do ... and that's easy to dance
to.
M: At dances, I'm sure that's what she did.
PG: Did they discover oil down in that area at all?
MOSS 38
M: No.
PG: It was the springs that were your liquid gold.
ES: Much more important.
M: Uh huh. Yes, it surely was at that time. But some of
the water was not very good to drink.
PG : Did she boil it ••• most of the time .,. before you
drank it?
M: No. Our water was .•. well, I don't know if you noticed
my teeth. Too much chlorine in the water, you know. Of
course, we didn't know that at the time.
BG: Darkens them, but it sure prese rve s them.
M: Yes. I didn't have any cavities until I left the area.
PG: Well, that's true of a lot of Texas people. Their
teeth were excellent because their water had so many
minerals.
M: But it was soft water. It was , you know ...
BG: Soft water?
M: Pardon?
BG: Well water, but it was soft. Interesting. Well, well,
M: We thought it was good ... thought it tasted awful
good.
PG: Was it cool? Most of the time, coming up through the
springs ••.
M: Yes.
BG: Yes, the water you're used to tastes good. I remember
somebody who'd been in China Station in the old days •..
MOSS 39
BG: they always got the coolies to do the hard work, like
scraping the sides of the ship, and so forth ..• and on a
hot day on the river ... it got hot on the river he was
scraping away and probably got thirsty so they offered him
some water from the ship ..• distilled water ••• "Hm ••. no
good." Dipped in the river.
M: Better for him.
ES: Did you ever have electricty in your home?
M: No, we didn't. When I was about 10, I guess it was, we
got carbide lights. Before that, of course, we had coal oil.
And then at some point we used gasoline lanterns which gave
good light.
BG: Yes, they do.
M: Carbide was nice because it was more convenient.
BG: Less fire hazard.
M: It didn't give very brilliant light, but soft light.
BG: There were so few people, I doubt they ever ran
telephone lines down there. Not enough people to support
it.
M: After the raid on Glenn Springs, they ran a telephone
line down there, so there was a telephone at my
grandfather's house where my uncle was living at that time.
But I don't know that we ever used it. It was 15 miles from
our house to theirs, so if it was an emergency, we went on
to town. And then they didn't keep it in repair very long
either, after
PG: .,. the raid was over with.
MOSS 40
ES: Do you know about when Big Bend Telephone came into the
area?
M: Oh, it was much later.
ES: I know it was much later; I was just ...
M: I've got their book at home, but I don't know .•• but
I'm sure that would tell. Do you have a copy of that ...
Neville Hyanes's (?) book?
ES: No. I wasn't even aware that he'd done one.
M:
ES:
Yes. He did. Cecelia Thompson wrote it for him.
That was •.• I know he got rid of the museum before ...
Very intesting ••• this local telephone company which runs
lines out to the ranches, which of course, the man who owned
it had a little telephone museum .•• It was quite
interesting •.. Who did he finally give it to? ••. San
Antonio, didn't he?
M: I don't know. I really wasn't aware that ... I thought
he still had some of that.
ES: No.
M: Well, that's too bad he didn't keep it in the area.
PG: You have a museum here at Sul Ross, too, that I'd like
to see, too. We didn't have much time, but we were so
thrilled that we finally could get together and have a visit
with you and find out some more about this area. Because
we ' ve been back a number of times we've got three
children and they enjoyed it from the time they were in
grade school on up. So we've really watched it grow and
as I said .. your highway here has been worked on so well.
MOSS 41
PG: And the different volunteer groups who keep the streets
M: Did you go down toward Terlingua on ... through there?
PG: We did on a bus tour ... two years ago?
BG: Not quite ... getting close to it though.
M: They're improving that road. Of course, it's always
been so narrow ... it was a farm to market road ... when
they built it.
PG: Well, we went above the run of the water .. the
short-day 's trip, and picnicked midway down ... the raft
trip ... and one lady put her hand in her jacket and hit a
yellow jacket, and he's allergic to bees stings, and we just
happened to have his medicine with us, and the fellow took a
poultice ••• made a poultice of clay , and just put it on the
sting , to pullout the venom as much as possible, and then
she decided she'd take a dramamine tablet, and her wrist
stayed swollen quite a while , and her hand too it's a
good thing we had some kind of medication to work with. But
that was a beautiful road down to the river.
M: Where did you ••• where did you float?
BG: What do they call that village they've ••• a rich man
from somewhere invested in building up this resort place ..•
Lajitas ..• that's where we stayed overnight there. They
drove us up the river X miles and it was a half-day trip
from on the raft ... a half-day trip on the raft to where
they let us off to get back home.
PG: And we went to the old Indian place where they rounded
MOSS 42
PG: up cattle and/or horses and put them inside .••
BG: Rock fence.
PG: Yeah •.. a fenced area . And we walked into a canyon
and .•• to where that was ... and you could get high up on
one of the peaks, and look over the area. It was
fascinating, but it was a hideaway for the Indians to
escape.
BG: When the raiders came down from up here to down there
and raided the poor Mexican people .. , stole their horses
and so forth and they corralled them in there before they
came back up, across the river this way.
PG: Works both ways, evidently, on the river. Who takes
what. Well, it's a tough place to live. But it sure is a
beautiful and fascinating one.
M: Yes. It is pretty, I think. It's kinda harsh.
PG: Right now, we could tell you've had some rain because
on the way up here, verbena was blooming and the yellow
cactus and
M: I don 't know when it rained.
BG: When the grass on the shoulders is green ...
M: It's greener down there, around Terlingua, than
BG: Well, when we came from San Antonio on 90 •.•
PG: You know Langtry to Marathon .••
M: Was it green?
BG: Yes.
M: Well, maybe it's rained down there.
PG: So you may just have missed it and been on the fringes
MOSS 43
PG: of the so-called storm that I thought we were driving
into rain.
BG: The way they talked about it in San Antonio, we didn't
know if we'd even see you ~or the rain out here.
PG: So you missed it completely. Then you don't get rain
until August now?
ES: Well, we get rain all summer , but down there, I guess,
you say ...
M: Well , mainly. If we have a rainy season , it's in late
August or September or sometimes in the spring ••. sometimes
in June.
BG: Something like California •.• once a year.
M: 'Course it can rain, other times, but you just don't
count on it.
PG: No. I was watching the clouds, coming up •.. as we
drove here and it looked like a lot of turbulence.
M: I~ell, we have some good clouds, but a lot of wind.
think the wind just blew it away.
PG: Good for painters, but not for growing things.
M: Right.
I
ES: I remember when we went down ••. Easter , one time ••.
and .•• south of here on 118, and down just before Study
Butte, we had to wait for a creek to run down, and
unusual ... everybody told us how unusual it was for a creek
to be up in .•• oh, sometime in April .
M: Kinda early for creeks to be on the rise.
PG: So there's a lot of low-water crossings around this
area.
MOSS 44
M: They're about to do away with them, I think, or trying
to, but I noticed, I don't know if you went the Marathon
road, they've got so many culverts lined up there along
I don't know where they're going to put them all, but I
guess they think they know. And of course, we used to .•.
PG: Wait for them
M: Major creeks, of course, the Tornillo and the
Maravillas, where you had to sit and wait for hours for it
to go down.
BG: Low water crossing ... you have to think about that •. ,
because actually it's a high water crossing isn't it? The
high water, you don't cross. Low water, why, it's a low
crossing and there's water there .•. English language is
confusing. (laughter)
ES: Well, I've known days when I couldn't go to school
because I couldn't get across a creek.
M: You didn't mind that at all, did you?
ES: Naw ••• I'd rather go to school than work. Had to go
to the field. ..? plow. Always work to do around the
place.
PG: When you plowed a field, did you do it with a hoe? Is
that what you're talking about •.. or taking an animal and
working with a scythe or something? A plow.
ES: Well, we used a regular horse-drawn cultivator, but of
course, if it had been raining, it was probably too wet to
use that, and we'd have to get in the field. As I say, I
always worked around the house
MOSS 45
BG: Harness to mend •.. fences to mend
ES: And the interminable job on a farm or ranch of keeping
the fences up. And that many miles of fences ...
M: Digging post holes is no fun.
PG: Did your dad ride the 22 acres, to check his fence
lines?
ES: Sections?
PG: Sections.
M: Oh, yes, regularly.
ES: Riding fence was regular
M: Yes.
ES: Just like .•• ?
J: That's right. If you had a little rain too, you know,
the water gaps wopuld go and the cattle would get out and
you certainly had to check ..• well, you always had to check
You never knew when the fence would fall down for some
reason .•• something knock it over.
PG: Well, we have so many insects now that seem to eat so
many of the vegetables , and I've often wondered if it's
tough now with all the snails and slugs and all ... and
chewing things
M: We didn't have well, I won't say we didn't have any
I know Mother would sometimes put ashes or something
like that on her garden, but nothing ever bothered the fruit
trees. We didn't have any •••
PG: Insects that
M: Or borers or anything like that down at the ranch.
Never troubled by anything like that.
MOSS 46
PG: Well , that stand of asparagus, too. Your dad had to
get some asparagus from someplace. That was a good,
healthy-looking vegetable.
M: Well , I don't know how it survived all these years.
But they always had a garden.
PG: He had a green thumb.
M: Well, it was just a necessity in those days. You had
to have a garden because you didn 't have acess to fresh
vegetables.
PG: To survive.
M: Much of the time we didn't have fresh meat because we
couldn't keep meat in the summer •••
PG : I wondered if you smoked it.
M: I think he tried a time or two, but normally we didn 't
he'd hang it up in the winter and it would dry, and keep
for months like that. And then of course, we shared with
the neighbors, and so
PG: So if you butchered the whole animal you'd share it
usually with somebody else.
M: Usually. Of course, we had canned meats but that .•.
PG: They had to be packed in •••
BG: We certainly don't want t o overburden you with this
sort of thing. If you have something else you want to say,
we ' ve got more tape to do it on, but we also .•. we're
willing to call it quits anytime you ' re ready.
M: Well, I think I've told you everything I can think of.
PG: You've been charming, and we certainly have enjoyed
MOSS 47
PG: finding out what the good old days were like for you.
M: But it was fun.
PG: For the benefit of th person doing the transcribing,
that was Mrs. Moss we were interviewing. Dr. Speck ••. Dr.
Ernest Speck was in there a lot with his voice. My wife,
and I sometimes said something .. , Bill Gregg. It looks
like this is the end of the tape for this particular time.
So thank you very much •..
END OF SIDE 2, ABOUT 23 MINUTES.