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Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

Originally Posted by ocean515

It's apparent you missed one of the more important Traditions in AA, despite the years you claim you were involved in it.

They have no opinion on outside issues, including your experience with the program. As such, the only comments your likely to get will be from people who don't know any better, or don't have any experience with it, so I don't know how much ammunition your going to gather to throw back at your girlfriend.

Since your girlfriend thought you would benefit from such a program, I wish you well in dealing with whatever issue she thought you need help with.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

Originally Posted by Mustachio

I feel almost the exact same way and took issue with the "crutch" comment as well. The thing about being an addict is it makes you want to believe that you get it - "it" meaning everything about addiction. Unfortunately, everything is subjective and while it's fine to talk about your experiences (I appreciate anybody who is willing to admit to being or having been an addict) it's better to say "in my experience..." rather than something like "here's how it is..."

Like I said in my previous posts, there is no right and wrong. There is no cure. The vast, vast majority of addicts and alcoholics don't respond well to treatment. And the people who follow the most successful treatment plans, such as methadone maintenance for opiate addicts, are the most looked down upon. I am not an alcoholic but I have family members who are, and I've been to AA, and I can understand why somebody would not like it but we - and especially the addicts and former addicts - should not be slamming it.

Agreed. There is no "cure", there are only "treatments". You are right... most addicts remain active and no treatment really helps. But AA is one of the more successful ones out there. It certainly isn't for everyone, and there are people who do very well without it. But, as you said, slamming AA makes no sense, since it does have some effectiveness.

This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

Originally Posted by Navy Pride

You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.

Originally Posted by Wessexman

See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .

Originally Posted by CriticalThought

Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.

Originally Posted by ernst barkmann

It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

Originally Posted by radcen

In my previous post (#109) I pointed out a local AA-like outfit that gets assigned by the court to asses people's "need" for treatment. They also get to do the treatment, and pretty nobody ever gets a pass, so yes, I'd say there's a conflict of interest.

I will add that this court appointed status is the vast bulk of their business overall. They are legally classified as a non-profit, but in the real world they have to make enough of a "profit" to meet expanses, pay salaries (which is incentive enough to cause a conflict of interest, keeping oneself employed), and so on.

There are no salaries with AA. There is no one providing treatment. AA is a support group. "Treatment" indicates professionals providing this. That is not what is happening in AA. Courts assign people to go to AA meeting because they have seen it be helpful. AA really doesn't get anything out of it.

This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

Originally Posted by Navy Pride

You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.

Originally Posted by Wessexman

See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .

Originally Posted by CriticalThought

Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.

Originally Posted by ernst barkmann

It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

Originally Posted by AlbqOwl

While it is true that many have been able to get clean and sober without AA, it has been my experience that those who most criticize and/or disrespect organizations like AA are those who most likely to suffer from addiction or codependency and/or are in serious danger of relapse. There is no more efficient liar in the world than an addict or codependent--efficient at lying to themselves. And others. It isn't they intentionally set out to lie. It is just the only way they can continue in their addiction in peace or justify their feelings and behavior that is controlled by codependency. And to hear others speak of what they are lying about to themselves or others is just too uncomfortable or offensive for some to tolerate. That, plus a few really bad groups that don't reflect the core values of the program, is why most reject the program.

But in my opinion alcoholism and the other addictions are a real mental, physical, and spiritual sickness and it truly is a family disease. Codependency is not chosen by any who suffer from it, but very few, if any, who are in close contact with the addict will not have negative impact on their own mental, spiritual, and sometimes physical well being.

A good AA group and sponsor knows this, understands this, and, for those who are willing to give it an honest chance, can help people regain control of their lives without the substance(s) or activities (such as gambling) that they are addicted to.

AA is not the crutch. The substance or activity they are addicted to is the crutch. Without it they don't feel comfortable or normal. AA can help people live productive lives without the crutch.

This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

Originally Posted by Navy Pride

You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.

Originally Posted by Wessexman

See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .

Originally Posted by CriticalThought

Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.

Originally Posted by ernst barkmann

It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

Having an addict who recovered in my family I can safely say that there is only one way you recover an addict contrary to what all the sycophants will tell you. Cold turkey. That's the only way to have it work.

AA and things like it take a bunch of addicts and put them together. The absolute last thing they need. Addicts are weak humans. They empower their addiction by other weak humans making their addiction seem okay. AA meetings are full of rapists and user type people who understand this truth and abuse it. The last place any addict belongs is a place with other addicts. It's the same reason rehab centers full of addicts don't work. You have to cut out the other sick people from that weak persons life.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

Originally Posted by Ryan5

Having an addict who recovered in my family I can safely say that there is only one way you recover an addict contrary to what all the sycophants will tell you. Cold turkey. That's the only way to have it work.

AA and things like it take a bunch of addicts and put them together. The absolute last thing they need. Addicts are weak humans. They empower their addiction by other weak humans making their addiction seem okay. AA meetings are full of rapists and user type people who understand this truth and abuse it. The last place any addict belongs is a place with other addicts. It's the same reason rehab centers full of addicts don't work. You have to cut out the other sick people from that weak persons life.

This post demonstrates so much ignorance on addiction and recovery, it's hard to know where to start. When you put a group of people together, trying to be in recovery in regards to a certain issue, like addiction, what you often find is that they gather strength from each other. The support group model is well established and well researched as a successful modality for recovery and for assistance with a wide variety of issues. However, it IS important for those in a recovery group to be aiming towards recovery. If they are a group of folks who want to remain active addicts, then of course, the group will have the opposite effect of what is intended. Groups that I run for people who have various issues, MUST want to be in recovery in order to be in the group. Without that criteria, an individual could easily potentially poison the rest of the group.

This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

Originally Posted by Navy Pride

You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.

Originally Posted by Wessexman

See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .

Originally Posted by CriticalThought

Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.

Originally Posted by ernst barkmann

It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

Originally Posted by Ryan5

Having an addict who recovered in my family I can safely say that there is only one way you recover an addict contrary to what all the sycophants will tell you. Cold turkey. That's the only way to have it work.

AA and things like it take a bunch of addicts and put them together. The absolute last thing they need. Addicts are weak humans. They empower their addiction by other weak humans making their addiction seem okay. AA meetings are full of rapists and user type people who understand this truth and abuse it. The last place any addict belongs is a place with other addicts. It's the same reason rehab centers full of addicts don't work. You have to cut out the other sick people from that weak persons life.

I don't think that's fair at all. Rehab centers full of addicts don't work because they're full of addicts? I don't understand what that means at all. "Rehab centers" don't exist to cure addicts, they exist as a safe place for addicts to go through acute withdrawal under medical supervision, give addicts peers who understand them and can talk openly and honestly with them, and equip addicts with the knowledge and resources they may need to stay sober once they get out. That's it. It's not a secret that most people don't stay sober forever.

The cold turkey approach you're advocating does nothing but instill in people a sense of shame over their disease and the danger there is that they will continue to use drugs or alcohol secretly. It doesn't work any more than AA or maintenance therapy and you won't find a study in the world that says otherwise. What you're saying is statistically untrue. We have yet to develop a successful treatment for addiction, but when we do, it won't be called "cold turkey." That's a dumb, outdated idea and a John Lennon song, both of which I'm all too familiar with.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy

There are no salaries with AA. There is no one providing treatment. AA is a support group. "Treatment" indicates professionals providing this. That is not what is happening in AA. Courts assign people to go to AA meeting because they have seen it be helpful. AA really doesn't get anything out of it.

The organization I was talking about specifically was not AA, but "AA-like" in the sense they do treatment, counseling, and so on. I do not know if they were all volunteers, but they do have their own office space (3 or 4, actually), assigned counselors, assigned people to administer tests, etc., so I would imagine they have costs of some sort. They come off as more of a business, and less of a support group that meets in a church parlor.

Your point about AA specifically is well-taken, though.

Roy L. Fuchs: I'll tell you something. This country is going to the dogs.
You know, it used to be when you bought a politician, that son of a bitch stayed bought.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

Originally Posted by Ryan5

Having an addict who recovered in my family I can safely say that there is only one way you recover an addict contrary to what all the sycophants will tell you. Cold turkey. That's the only way to have it work.

AA and things like it take a bunch of addicts and put them together. The absolute last thing they need. Addicts are weak humans. They empower their addiction by other weak humans making their addiction seem okay. AA meetings are full of rapists and user type people who understand this truth and abuse it. The last place any addict belongs is a place with other addicts. It's the same reason rehab centers full of addicts don't work. You have to cut out the other sick people from that weak persons life.

This is just all kinds of wrong. Having addicts around other addicts who are working toward the same goal has worked many times over. Having people to talk to who are also working through it is very effective. Far more so than dealing with a bunch of people telling you to just quit doing drugs or drinking. Understanding and support go a long way toward helping someone over come their addictions.

“Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.”
― Stephen R. Covey

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

Originally Posted by Kreton

Understanding and support go a long way toward helping someone over come their addictions.

Actually that's not true.

Understanding is the last thing an addict needs. An addict will tell you they simply need more understanding forever. They're an addict. Cold turkey that person and get them away from that lifestyle and put them around strong individuals and they'll lose their addiction. Nobody ever lost an addiction through "Pampering the addiction".