If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You will have to register
before you will be permitted to post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

5.56 / .223 brass difference?

I have 1000 rounds of once fired Winchester 5.56 brass. I know the difference between 5.56 and .223 loaded ammo, but I'm unaware of any difference in the raw brass. I do know that military (LC) brass is thicker and can increase pressure, but I'm talking about Winchester brass.

Is there any reason why I can't load the 5.56 brass to .223 specs and use it in my #10PH with it's .223 chamber??

I plan on using SB (small base) die for the first loading, then fire form and neck size after that.

Why small base die? That's only if you're shooting lever actions or some semi's. I've never had to use SB dies,even for AR's.I think it works the brass too much and shortens life.Just use regular FL sizer the first time and NS after that.

"An armed society is a polite society"
"...shall not be infringed" What's the confusion?

I have 1000 rounds of once fired Winchester 5.56 brass. I know the difference between 5.56 and .223 loaded ammo, but I'm unaware of any difference in the raw brass. I do know that military (LC) brass is thicker and can increase pressure, but I'm talking about Winchester brass.

Is there any reason why I can't load the 5.56 brass to .223 specs and use it in my #10PH with it's .223 chamber??

I plan on using SB (small base) die for the first loading, then fire form and neck size after that.

There is NO SPOON!!!
1)There is no difference in brass
2)I have the same book that says the brass is thicker, and pressures. Read #1
3) Winchester sold their brass cartridge business in 2007. So do you mean Winchester brass, or brass with the Winchester name? Again read #1
4) The specs are the same, Read #1
5)Small base dies are for when brass has been run through very loose, or Scalloped chambers, such as on some HK, and FAL autos. IME RCBS dies are at the LARGE end of the spec, and have had an issue along the way. With my standard Lee F/L dies, there has never been a need for the SB dies.
UNLESS you specifically buy special purpose brass, any difference is merely manufacturing tollerances.
If I could get the upload to work, I'd post capacities...

Only thing to really worry about is the crimp ring around the primer pocket. If the brass has that crimp you will have to cut it out.

cut it out or swage it out, the only other real difference is the headstamp. L C, W C C, and such are military and the commercial is stamped 223Rem. The newer true nato approved ammo will have the nato stamp on it, a + inside a o. You should try to keep it in lots with the same headstamp as there are differences between between lots of both military and commercial brass.

One of the changes made in 1967 to prevent jamming in the M16 rifle (case head separations) was to make mil-spec brass out of higher quality brass. This means you will not find a better or stronger .223 case for reloading than LC 5.56 brass.

After Winchester lost the contract to produce military ammunition at Lake City, Winchester sold off its brass manufacturing capabilities and now buys brass from the cheapest vendor to produce its Winchester cases.

I would LOVE to see any tangible evidence of that.
The "jamming" issues were a combination of things.
1) a "Least-costing" decision to change powder, AFTER the testing and contract was issued.
2) No cleaning equipment issued
3) addition of chrome lined chamber and bore.

I question the timing of "Winchester losing the contract" for operation of the LC plant, but the military buys from several sources regardless of that. Winchester sold it's powder production facility around 2000. They sold their brass cartridge business about 2007.

ATK has the contract to operate the Lake City Arsenal, and has been running the Radford Arsenal up until a recent JV with General Dynamics. It appears now at least, that the Lake City Arsenal is little more than an assembly plant; with components coming from various sources. As an example The gunpowder is coming from GD out of Florida.

I would LOVE to see any tangible evidence of that.
The "jamming" issues were a combination of things.
1) a "Least-costing" decision to change powder, AFTER the testing and contract was issued.
2) No cleaning equipment issued
3) addition of chrome lined chamber and bore.

I question the timing of "Winchester losing the contract" for operation of the LC plant, but the military buys from several sources regardless of that. Winchester sold it's powder production facility around 2000. They sold their brass cartridge business about 2007.

ATK has the contract to operate the Lake City Arsenal, and has been running the Radford Arsenal up until a recent JV with General Dynamics. It appears now at least, that the Lake City Arsenal is little more than an assembly plant; with components coming from various sources. As an example The gunpowder is coming from GD out of Florida.

darkker
You need to read more about the M16 rifle and the history of that time. The brass is a higher quality and it needs to withstand higher than normal .223 chamber pressures, 62,000 psi for the M855 round.

Ed i am just wondering just where the 62,000 psi comes from. Milspec is for 55,000 with the m197 high pressure test loads running 70,000 psi. the m855 is the highest pressure of any 5.56x45 load other than the high pressure. Except the restricted range plastic bullet loads most of the rest of the milspec loads are around 52,000 psi. All this is as of 1994 mil-spec. Maybe they have upped the pressure since then but the m855 is speced to run 3025 fps 78 feet from the muzzle. You can find all this info at everyspec.com.

Ed i am just wondering just where the 62,000 psi comes from. Milspec is for 55,000 with the m197 high pressure test loads running 70,000 psi. the m855 is the highest pressure of any 5.56x45 load other than the high pressure. Except the restricted range plastic bullet loads most of the rest of the milspec loads are around 52,000 psi. All this is as of 1994 mil-spec. Maybe they have upped the pressure since then but the m855 is speced to run 3025 fps 78 feet from the muzzle. You can find all this info at everyspec.com.

From TM 43-0001-27
The M197 is loaded to 52,000 cup
The M855 is loaded to 55,000 cup

Pressure measuring methods and readings
The following pressures are the same BUT are measured using three different methods.

Here is the specs taken from mil-spec sheet TM 43-0001-27. As you can see it clearly shows no matter how they measured it the M197 is a proof load and you have your figures wrong. There is a lot of hoopla out there about the 223 vs 5.56 and if you look at your graph you will see that even your 62,000 psi load in an uneven test didn't break the 60,000 psi mark. Also if you look it up copper units of pressure are always listed as cup and pounds per square inch are listed as psi That is an industry and world wide standard. Yes there are a lot of things people don't know abut the black rifle but there is also a lot of myth out there about it also.
Now we can let everryone make their own decission and get back to the matter of the brass being the same or different.

earl, if we use your guess work, what would the pressure reading be above if you converted 52,000 psi to cup. I'm wondering what you have to say because this pressure would be below the rated chamber pressure of the .223 and we wouldn't have the SAAMI interchangeability pressure warning for the .223 and 5.56x45 that came out in 1979. This warning came out because the Army gave waivers to munitions plants to exceed the standard pressure of 52,000 cup and allowed some ammunition to be loaded to 60,000 cup with some lots of powder.

Copper units pressure is still pounds per square inch because psi is what we use in the U.S.
When the transducer method came into use the pressure reading were labeled psi to differentiate between copper units pressure and the transducer method. BOTH readings are pounds per square inch but are measured differently just as the CIP pressure are when measured at the case mouth for military EPVAT testing.

On top of this if you would buy the book below and read it you wouldn't be questioning what I have written here about pressures and the higher standards for the 5.56 brass cartridge cases.

Below, my five gallon buckets of Lake City 5.56x45 cartridge cases made to higher standards than commercial cases, you can't see the third bucket of Remington .223 cartridge cases ready for reloading.