Ray wrote:As for Marvel Winning this round there won't be any future rounds for either side to win because big theatrical releases are going the way of the dinosaurs and silent movies. DC and one chance and they're never going to get it again.

I wouldn't go that far. What I do see happening is studios becoming more reluctant to green light movies not based on established franchises or made by famous directors. You could argue that the so-called Blockbuster Era of Hollywood began in 1975 with Jaws and ended in 2009 with Avatar; today we live in what I call the Franchise Era. Big theatrical releases aren't going to disappear, but they're going to become more homogenized and less varied as studios focus on their most lucrative franchises at the expense of pretty much everything else. We already see signs of it today. Every major film studio wants to create some sort of "cinematic universe" like the one Marvel has out of the series they own the rights to, with varying results. The result of this approach is movies that (ideally) make a lot of money, but at the same time feel mass-produced rather than created as works of art in their own right. But because these movies are so popular, they prevent original movies from finding much success. And at the same time, small independent movies have turned out to be very profitable when released to streaming platforms.In other words, soon the only movies still getting theatrical releases will be the ones that belong to big franchises. And that's why WB isn't giving up on the DCEU, even though you'd think they would. To remain viable as a movie studio in the age of streaming movies and mega-franchises, they need a mega-franchise of their own. And that means continuing on with the DCEU.

Also, Ray, take a chill pill.

Life can seem a challenge. Life can seem impossible. It's never easy when so much is on the line.

Even if it means facing Divisive Retcons and Diminishing returns like the Fox X-Men movies did before the Disney Buy out?

I’ll escape now from this world, from the world of Jean Valjean, Jean Valjean is nothing now! Another story must begin!Avatar: "There's a Starman, waiting in the sky. He'd like to come and meet me, but he thinks he'd blow my mind."Phew, I’m not tense anymore… now I’m just miserable.People say "be yourself" but that's bad advice, if we were all to "be ourselves" many of us would stop wearing clothes. -Chuckman

If you're looking for an ongoing series without retcons, stay away from the X-Men, home of Portals to the Punch Dimension and guy a who is pretending to be Magneto pretending to be himself.

Frankly I think the X-Men are a model for how to handle continuity. The bad X movies didn't stop them from making First Class and Logan. No one said, "We can't make those good movies because of a thing that happened in those bad movies", they treated each one as an independent entity which has some things in common with the others.

Marvel is taking a somewhat riskier approach. They have to roll the hard six and either recast important roles as the actors quit/age out but keep the continuity the same, soap opera style, or see if they can age out those characters and shift the focus to others in their stable. If they're smart that's what they'll do.

the prophecy is trueThe wish for respectability, observed spiritual teacher Jiddu Krishnamurti, is the greatest deterrent to selfhood and progress.

Darkseid was originally going to be in JL before WB snipped him out of the movie with reshoots.

WB just isn't the best place for these characters to be. But thanks to corporations sitting on every IP in the odd event it can make money. They are never going to be sent to a studio that can do them Justice.

And the thing is I like Warner Brothers as a sstudio. A producer of my favorite movies of all time. But with the mess ups. They're never going to be able to get the DC characters right ever again even if they do reboot because the entire way WB setup is counterintuitive to that sort of multi connected cinematic experience.

I’ll escape now from this world, from the world of Jean Valjean, Jean Valjean is nothing now! Another story must begin!Avatar: "There's a Starman, waiting in the sky. He'd like to come and meet me, but he thinks he'd blow my mind."Phew, I’m not tense anymore… now I’m just miserable.People say "be yourself" but that's bad advice, if we were all to "be ourselves" many of us would stop wearing clothes. -Chuckman

Chuckman wrote:Marvel is taking a somewhat riskier approach. They have to roll the hard six and either recast important roles as the actors quit/age out but keep the continuity the same, soap opera style, or see if they can age out those characters and shift the focus to others in their stable. If they're smart that's what they'll do.

But Marvel is, to continue your metaphor, using loaded dice. No other company has Marvel's extra advantages, so their attempts at making a cinematic universe don't work as well.

Life can seem a challenge. Life can seem impossible. It's never easy when so much is on the line.

Marvel can't lose no matter what they do. Even if they did mess up the Goodwill they've built up will save the brand in the long term while other companies don't have any Goodwill at all especially Warner Brothers and DC.

I’ll escape now from this world, from the world of Jean Valjean, Jean Valjean is nothing now! Another story must begin!Avatar: "There's a Starman, waiting in the sky. He'd like to come and meet me, but he thinks he'd blow my mind."Phew, I’m not tense anymore… now I’m just miserable.People say "be yourself" but that's bad advice, if we were all to "be ourselves" many of us would stop wearing clothes. -Chuckman

Watching a Marvel superhero movie:“Hey, enjoy the movie. We’re really excited about what we’re dping with the characters. Tune in next time if you feel like it.”

Watching a non-Marvel superhero movie:“HEY GUYS, WE’RE TOTALLY MAKING A SEQUEL TO THIS FILM. LIKE, SERIOUSLY YOU GUYS. JUST LOOK AT HOW BIG THE SEQUEL IS GOING TO BE. I MEAN, WE’RE GONNA HAVE DOC OC, VENOM, DARKSIED, STEPPENWOLF, WHOEVER YOU WANT. WHATEVER YOU WANT. WE DON’T EVEN CARE HOW WE GET THERE. IT’S GONNA BE EPIC AT SOME POINT, WE PROMISE. EVENTUALLY. In the meantime, here’s a 5-minute scene where your favorite superheroes punch each other repeatedly in the dark, surrounded by a confusing plot.”

They HAVE to cram all that into their movies catch up to where Marvel is now if they want any hope of being able to compete. The bubble will pop if they took their time setting everything up gradually over the course of several years.

Marvel's success has made everyone else too self conscious to get it right.

I’ll escape now from this world, from the world of Jean Valjean, Jean Valjean is nothing now! Another story must begin!Avatar: "There's a Starman, waiting in the sky. He'd like to come and meet me, but he thinks he'd blow my mind."Phew, I’m not tense anymore… now I’m just miserable.People say "be yourself" but that's bad advice, if we were all to "be ourselves" many of us would stop wearing clothes. -Chuckman

Well, they FEEL like they have to cram. You’re right about Marvel making most studio heads too self-conscious to do it right anymore. I will counterpoint the idea that it can’t be done, though. Logan and Deadpool prove that you can still make a “one-shot” movie and still have it please all of the critics and thrill all of the audiences. And, to Chuckman’s point, it can do all of those things with little to no regard for continuity.

It’ll be interesting to see how well Black Panther does compared to Deadpool, actually. Both will be February releases of comic book IPs, both were expected to do well in the box office, but one will have a significantly lower budget than the other. (Mostly because it had far less superheroes.) Deadpool and Logan prove that audiences are not the ones saying “Oh, it doesn’t have 12 superheroes in it, nobody will watch it.” Only self-aware studio heads are saying that, and it’s to their own detriment.

Disney plays the long game. it's not just that they want you to buy the movie opening weekend, it's that they want your GRANDCHILDREN to be paying on opening weekend in 30 years when the Superhero genre comes back after a lull of a decade or so.

Side note. During the 'superhero lull' that starts in 2028 or so. I expect Disney to keep the Marvel brand alive by making 'Superhero but not really' movies to supplement this.

They've got a buttload of Cowboy characters, make an old west movie with one of them. You've seen westerns, now come see the MARVELtm western! You want a Jurassic Park Franchise that doesn't suck? Here's a Ka-Zar in the Savage Land movie with Dinosaurs! Want a scary movie? Here's a movie the Brood now that we've got the X-Men rights back!

While DC's stuck with it's thumb up it's ass for the next fifty years.

I’ll escape now from this world, from the world of Jean Valjean, Jean Valjean is nothing now! Another story must begin!Avatar: "There's a Starman, waiting in the sky. He'd like to come and meet me, but he thinks he'd blow my mind."Phew, I’m not tense anymore… now I’m just miserable.People say "be yourself" but that's bad advice, if we were all to "be ourselves" many of us would stop wearing clothes. -Chuckman

Warner Brothers is treating this like a bubble, that's why the movies they're making suck. Everything reeks of joyless, unplanned paint by numbers corporate thinking. They don't know how this kind of storytelling works and they don't care to learn or find someone who does to head the project, so they make a list of things that work (Nolan's name on it, Hans Zimmer, Goyer, Snyder, etc) and mash it all together. The movies don't stand alone, they're not their own thing. They have nothing interesting to add or say, and when they try it ends up contradictory and confusing.

The only reason Wonder Woman is so good is because it had to be its own thing. There are no previous Wonder Woman movies to pastiche, parody, reference, deconstruct, reconstruct, invert, subvert, or whatever, and she has the same advantage as Iron Man, in that most people probably have a passing familiarity from cultural osmosis but haven't made their mind up about her going into the theater.

the prophecy is trueThe wish for respectability, observed spiritual teacher Jiddu Krishnamurti, is the greatest deterrent to selfhood and progress.

I’ll escape now from this world, from the world of Jean Valjean, Jean Valjean is nothing now! Another story must begin!Avatar: "There's a Starman, waiting in the sky. He'd like to come and meet me, but he thinks he'd blow my mind."Phew, I’m not tense anymore… now I’m just miserable.People say "be yourself" but that's bad advice, if we were all to "be ourselves" many of us would stop wearing clothes. -Chuckman