I think this is an interesting article and I think it worth emphasizing the point that pictures are enhanced when they provoke some sort of emotion in the viewer.

But, I also think that in 3D it should be possible to admire a model for its own sake, i.e. its shape and form, proportion etc. without feeling that it must necessarily be textured, put into scene, tell a story or whatever.

Expose 1 does have one or two models that are not textured and in a way I don't think the car (and architectural) renders that appear are intended to evoke any particular emotion, except maybe admiration for their realism and the skill that has gone into doing them. I hope that Expose 2 will also have a place for such models and renders.

Best regards

Alex Rooth

Garma

10-27-2003, 02:00 PM

eyyy very good idea this forum. This one's gonna be one hell of an inspiration source for me.

consider me subscribed :D

Hexodam

10-27-2003, 02:03 PM

This is definetly a forum I will get new wallpapers off :D

one thing, I doubt that many will actually post here to begin with so it would be great if mods would move extremely inspiring and well done works from the wip forum to this one, just to get this one started

MarkSnoswell

10-27-2003, 02:06 PM

This is THE place for people to hone their skills in creating truly stunning imagery -- images that have great artistic and commercial value!

It will get every bit of attention that I can give it to help people hone their skills. Dramatically improve the appeal of your work -- and you stand a way better chance of getting published in in film, TV and of course books like EXPOSÉ 2.

Mark

JDex

10-27-2003, 02:09 PM

Ahh great... another freaking forum for me to spend too much time checking... no really this is a great idea and I hope that it helps to improve the "art" of my work and the community as a whole. Good idea Mark!

JHarford

10-27-2003, 02:11 PM

excellent should be an invaluable resourse

OrcOYoyo

10-27-2003, 02:11 PM

I hope there will be a lot of input soon wherefrom i can learn to improve my pictures =)
Good idea, I hope people will use it a lot

iwask

10-27-2003, 02:12 PM

hey Mark I agree more with you

I'm sorry I make a mistake.I know your meaning now.
Thank you for your idea and help,MARK ;-)

MarkSnoswell

10-27-2003, 02:15 PM

Hi .. I hope you're all starting by reading the article and not just jumping in and engaging your mouths before brains ;) ...

mmm hehe cool, I was wondering what that maintanance break was, happening at this time of night in Australia... ;)

I'm really looking forward the seeing the new images and reading the comments in this forum (/me subscribes in anticipation), it's sounds like a great way to get some variation from the mostly technical style of critiques in the forums ;)

(hey, it'd be cool if there was a button or something to move your thread in between the forums to try and control the type of feedback you received for different stages of the work... so you could work on technical aspects of a model in the WIP or focussed critique forum, and then move the thread over to here for more artistic crits).

hmm, and the way the main CGTalk page has been recatagorised looks neat too ;)

leigh

10-27-2003, 02:29 PM

I'm greatly looking forward to seeing the work submitted here for critique :)

Please bear in mind that this forum, like the Focused Crits forum, will be heavily moderated - the purpose of this forum is to make great work even more fabulous, so that means no rabble, guys!

Now let's make some art :D

orvski

10-27-2003, 02:32 PM

lately i have been running out of good ideas and been wondering why i haven't been creative. after reading this article of yours i realized that i have been stuck in that technical world (oh man i gotta makesomething that looks really cool hdri this and global gi that)...but i always had no idea what to make...and NOW after reading this, at this moment, alot of ideas just sparked in my head.. i have written them and drawn them on paper already..but i just want to say thank you for that intro article, because it opened up my creativity again. :)

SoulSurvivor

10-27-2003, 02:35 PM

Great idea to create a forum, which gives you the time that you
can express your feelings.I agree with evreyrthing.

Bliz

10-27-2003, 02:53 PM

Seems like a good idea to fight the 'Hey, you just press some buttons on that computer and pretty pictures come out'mis-conception but I'm a bit confused - is there a forum order we should be posting images to get critiqued? What I mean is, is it o.k. to post an image on this forum without first posting it anywhere else on cgtalk or would you rather people submitted the picture to 'focused critiques' first to get the tecnical issues ironed out?

I assume once it's been through this forum, a piece would go to it's relative 2D or 3D 'Finished Works' forum?

And another question (sorry, just trying to get this stuff clear in my head) will front page plugs come from this forum or just the 'finished works' forums?

Basically what I'm getting at is will this forum and the 'finished' forums operate in parallel and independant to each other or serially as part of a process.

I think that's it for today.....=]-

aurora

10-27-2003, 02:55 PM

This is perfect timing and will be of great use for all of us working on the Alienware contest!

MindShell

10-27-2003, 03:01 PM

personally i think how a single given artist expresses him/her self in thier work is a form of art in it self. thus making this forum really bleek but it will help some no doubt so by all means go forth with it.

interesting idea.

MarkSnoswell

10-27-2003, 03:04 PM

Originally posted by Alex_Rooth
Hi Mark
...
But, I also think that in 3D it should be possible to admire a model for its own sake, i.e. its shape and form, proportion etc. without feeling that it must necessarily be textured, put into scene, tell a story or whatever.
Alex Rooth

True -- there is a place for sheer technical excellence, no question... but that's not in short supply. It's the very soul of the image we are concerned with here. It's all about how an image reaches out and says something to the viewer.

Even the most technical images can be enhanced when presented with the correct "mood" lighting, and in the right environment. I should post an example of some architectural images and note the things you can do to make even these quite evocative!

Equinoxx

10-27-2003, 03:06 PM

See, this is exactly why I love CGTalk,always trying to improve upon itself in order to help users advance themselves into creative and, more important, Solid artists.

This is definitely gonna be the Forum where I am gonna post my latest project which a select few have allready seen{ey leigh ;)]

also, that article alone made me rethink one or two things about my final still.

excellent guys.

big thumbs up.

Yves

mattregnier

10-27-2003, 03:09 PM

So how's this forum going to differ from the "focused critique" section. I mean that was started with great intents and then after being around for 6 months, posts like "dude that's awesome" or "whoa r0x0rs dude" are still the norm. People don't post 3/4 views, wireframes, or even software the piece was created in. We get submissions like a website and the author chooses still not to say what they want critiqued. Did that forum serve it's purpose?

But I have just seen the answer to the problems addressed with the Focused Critique forum, and here it is, just make another forum, call it a snappy name and say you'll moderate it heavily...

Really guys, I think we just need to crack down on these people who don't follow rules, a little warning here/there just doesn't cut it anymore.

Any suggestions?

Leonard

10-27-2003, 03:09 PM

Originally posted by Bliz
is there a forum order we should be posting images to get critiqued? What I mean is, is it o.k. to post an image on this forum without first posting it anywhere else on cgtalk or would you rather people submitted the picture to 'focused critiques' first to get the tecnical issues ironed out?

I assume once it's been through this forum, a piece would go to it's relative 2D or 3D 'Finished Works' forum?

And another question (sorry, just trying to get this stuff clear in my head) will front page plugs come from this forum or just the 'finished works' forums?

Hi Bliz,

Questions questions questions!

1. is there a forum order we should be posting images to get critiqued?
A. It depends on what sort of critique you want. For general critiques on WIP, post in the WIP forums. Evocative focuses squarely on creating imagery that expresses emotion. So the type of crits you'll get here are the "big picture" type crits - not really delving into the technical details of how to do it with a particular software package.

2. I assume once it's been through this forum, a piece would go to it's relative 2D or 3D 'Finished Works' forum?
A. That is up to you. Mark's intention for this forum is to raise the overall awareness in the community for creating this type of imagery, and we hope that people who take part in this forum will improve by leaps and bounds. We also hope that this will generate some awesome artwork for EXPOSE' 2 and beyond.

3. will front page plugs come from this forum or just the 'finished works' forums?
A. Front page plugs come from anywhere on the forums.

L.

Leonard

10-27-2003, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by mattregnier
So how's this forum going to differ from the "focused critique" section. I mean that was started with great intents and then after being around for 6 months, posts like "dude that's awesome" or "whoa r0x0rs dude" are still the norm.

But I have just seen the answer to the problems addressed with the focused critique forum, and here it is, just make another forum and say you'll moderate it heavily...really guys, I think we just need to crack down on these people who don't follow rules, a little warning here/there just doesn't cut it.

Any suggestions?

Hi Matt,

This is really the first part of a new process that we hope will raise the level of professionalism on CGTalk. Although some of us abhor the fanboy posts, a recent poll that we did revealed that about 50% of CGTalkers actually liked them.

The temporary solution is that the Serious Critique forums will be for serious, focused discussions and appraisals on work, while the general WIP/Critique forums are more generalised forums, which we will clean up shortly.

The core difference between Evocative and the Focused Critiques is that Evocative homes in on one core aspect of the art - that is emotive expression - which we found was extremely lacking in the 1400+ EXPOSE' 1 entries. Evocative is a macro level forum where suggestions and critiques will be made on a high level rather than the nitty gritty technicalities.

Hopefully that clears up any misconceptions about what this forum is about.

Leonard.

JamesMK

10-27-2003, 03:31 PM

This is an excellent idea that will most likely raise the bar for critiques as well as the artwork being 'processed' herein - if everything works out.

This macro level property of art is what it's all about in the end. I also strongly believe that people will never be able to excel in their work until they have transcended beyond the technical aspects of 3D in particular.

Looking forward to see how this develops.

sasquatch

10-27-2003, 04:00 PM

Oo, somewhere to hide from the dread phrase WIREZ PLZ. This has arrived at a good time for me; I'm in the early stages of a new project that'll benefit no end from some critical input.

Finally a chance to critique ideas and intentions rather than bleedin' polygons. ;)

Garma

10-27-2003, 04:33 PM

oh by the way does someone know good books or a couple of websites about this stuff? The article was great but too short ;) I've had some of this in college but i'd like to know more about it.

BRUTICUS

10-27-2003, 05:09 PM

im working on an animation for my thesis project. I've done most the models and have done the storyboards. Would it be a good idea to post my storyboards and maybe get tips as to the emotion that should be portrayed before I start animating?

mattregnier

10-27-2003, 06:23 PM

Originally posted by Leonard

Hopefully that clears up any misconceptions about what this forum is about.

Leonard.

Leo-

Thank you for the detailed explanation. I do wish you all luck in this new endeavor, and I know the benefits will greatly outweigh the complications.

-Matt

Tim Deneau

10-27-2003, 06:25 PM

Awesome, I'm excited to see where this forum goes.

Critiquing storyboards is a good idea.

Atwooki

10-27-2003, 07:48 PM

Phew!

About time, and what a great idea, Mark!!!

CGer's aside, this should help pry open the redundant 'third eyes' of the (non)admiring masses.....

Atwooki

E.T

10-27-2003, 07:56 PM

Great idea!
I think this Forum is very much needed.

None of my clients are interested in the technical stuff behind a picture.
They dont care if i modelled all of swedens population from a torus, or if i imported them from poser.

What matters to them is: what does the picture communicate?
Does it communicate?

I used to be an Art Director (Advertising) and when i bought photograpy, illustrations or for that matter pure 3D, i tended to not go for technically perfect stuff.
Anyone can with time/practice/talent become technically skilled.

What sets the great artists apart from the merely good ones seems more intangible.

So i really hope this could be the place to post pitcures that are almost there.

Morganism

10-27-2003, 07:57 PM

Ah, this is excellent. It will be a great partner to the focused crits forum.
Great idea Mark.

gmask

10-27-2003, 08:00 PM

Originally posted by Mark.Snoswell
True -- there is a place for sheer technical excellence, no question... but that's not in short supply. It's the very soul of the image we are concerned with here. It's all about how an image reaches out and says something to the viewer.

Even the most technical images can be enhanced when presented with the correct "mood" lighting, and in the right environment. I should post an example of some architectural images and note the things you can do to make even these quite evocative!

Mark,

Do you think this forum can enhance more abstract work as well as representative and environmental works?

Atwooki

10-27-2003, 08:13 PM

gmask highlights a couple of important points here....
the examples shown are obviously NON-abstract, and while homour is perhaps difficult to get across in the abstract form, emotiveness most definitely isn't.

Atwooki

Side_FX

10-27-2003, 08:27 PM

I am down with the forum. My skills could always be helped

adrencg

10-27-2003, 09:15 PM

Originally posted by DanDiaz
Howdy everyone,

In a nutshell, Evocative is a serious, focused critique forum for everyone to learn how to present or 'evoke' emotion in your existing artwork.

Dan

Don't shoot the messenger, but this kind of stuff can't be taught.

Mike

GrantMan

10-27-2003, 09:29 PM

I'm really looking forward to seeing this thread develop. Many artists, including myself, put much too much time into the style or detail of a piece, without realizing the importance of the emotions the viewer might experience when they see it.

Once again CGTalk proves it's above the rest. It's like schooling without tuition. Thanks for bringing the experience of so many great artists together for all of us to be inspired and learn from.

imphead

10-27-2003, 10:57 PM

Don't shoot the messenger, but this kind of stuff can't be taught.

I disagree. Understanding and evoking emotion in a piece, especially since that emotional connection is a vital component of the all important bridging device that art is, is simply a matter of looking further than simply creating an image.

Art is at it's core simply and bridge between artist and viewer. The strength of the connection made is reliant on any number of factors, including but not limited to technical execution of the piece, subject matter etc. That coupled with the interests and experiences of the viewer goes to establish the strength of the connection. Emotional content is just another factor that helps bridge that gap.

Emotion also happens to be one of the basest communicators we as humans posses. We can, without the use of higher forms of communication like language, gauge a person's mood or more to the point emotional state with but a glance. Add to that, the socio-biological component of empathy, (Based on the idea that as a societal animal we must understand and share the emotional states of other individual components of a society so the society may survive as a whole.) ergo, emotions cross many many more boundries than things like subject matter and technical execution do, making emotional content a stronger commuicator than most other elements of art. That being said, there are in fact broad elements, colors, compositional tricks etc. that can be used to specifically direct a person's emotional state.

Take for instance the color red. Red gets our attention solely because of the fact our blood is red. We're biologically hard-wired to respond to red as a survial trait. Society has used that little quirk in our make-up to astronomical degrees. Stop signs, fast cars, lipstick, advertisments, even governmental movements, all have used the color red solely because it's such an arresting color to the human race.

What about underpainting? Every wonder why sepia is the color of choice? Because it creates a warm color-palette throughout the image and we as humans associate "warm" with "alive" (Ruddy cheeks, red nose, warm lips.) and we as humans are attracted, again because we are a social animal, to other living things. Use a cool underpainting and the painting looks "dead" or unattractive.

What about numbers? Today's society is ruled by numbers, yet they're so common they tend to fade into our subconcious. Add a number to a piece and you've established identity or importance, created intrigue in the painting and interest in your viewer.

These are not mysterious tricks, or unlearnable traits. It's simply a matter of first understanding the way the mind works, then using that knowledge to better your art. I call it "Thinking before creating" or more simply the "Why" of art and for those that want to learn it's one of the most powerful tools in your tool box.

This forum is a brilliant torch for those that wish to bring so powerful an element into their work. Bravo Mark and Dan and bravo cgtalk for not only seeing the need but also taking the initiative to make it happen.

You can better believe I'll be here, preaching and teaching.

Brian

fabriciomicheli

10-27-2003, 11:21 PM

Nice idea!

Art is feeling. :)

Icarus

10-27-2003, 11:26 PM

Fantastic Read,
i really hope this new forum will bring out some truly awsome tallent and works.. (even better then before)

I Wish All Good Luck, and Really Hope they can get out of the forum that they want to.

AJ

10-28-2003, 12:00 AM

I think artistic critique is nothing but a good thing. It's a shame that such analysis needs it's own forum, (i.e - more and more segregation), but such is the way of things!

I do wish that you hadn't made all of your examples Exposé related. You'll have to forgive my cynicism (again!), but your article does read a little like "we need you to give us more artwork for our next book - buck up your ideas!"

MarkSnoswell

10-28-2003, 12:09 AM

Round up time:

gmask -- Yes, there are many basic skills and tricks that can be applied to any image to improve it's impact no matter what the content of the image is -- character based, abstract, technical or environment. Certainly there is always the underlying story that the image is meant to convey -- "why the heck was this image made to begin with? ... does it achieve those goals?" Just making people focus on that alone will often improve wheir work.

Arwooki -- Yes, emotions are hard. Soon I will add a bit of a challenge here to see who can portray a single word like bliss, impatience, annoyance, disgust, amusment, coy, sly, betrayal, pious, pouting, etc... Not easy at all! BUt of you don't know what you are trying to achieve then you will never get there -- and there are ways (and reference material) to achieve these things.

imphead -- right on :) ... there is a *lot* that can be taught. Both on the analysis and creative side. This has nothing to do with personal style. It's all about building on the natural talent you already have.

Zhalktis

10-28-2003, 07:13 AM

Great idea! This forum is just what the CG industry's been missing lots of years already. :thumbsup:

Hopefully it'll help artists to produce works full of emotions. Who knows... Maybe the wide masses will start saying "wow... that's art" instead of (along with) "oh, that looks like real". :)

Annuostivix

10-28-2003, 07:27 AM

How excellent, I think this is a good idea also. I think that you could never ever put enough emphasis on this particular aspect of artwork, that's great that you have had a look at current art work and decided to have a go with this forum. It will no doubt help a lot of people, including myself :)

I am considering entering some artwork, to give this forum a test drive ;) Hopefully it will put the fourm to good use.

About the fanboy stuff... Cgtalk is just as cool with people who say roxors and stuff, because it's definitely a positive message. Sure half of it comes from people who think almost anything roxors, but it's better than "That sucks" sort of things :) I'm by no means encouraging lots of it though, I'm a firm believer that focused opinions are more helpful than DUDE, THAT RO><ORS! hehe.

roxory forum idea anyhow :D

Atwooki

10-28-2003, 09:26 AM

imphead:

Art is at it's core simply and bridge between *artist and viewer. The strength of the connection made is reliant on any number of factors, including but not limited to technical execution of the piece, subject matter etc. That coupled with the interests and experiences of the viewer goes to establish the strength of the connection.
That would be design & craft......

Emotional content is just another factor that helps bridge that gap.
Now it has the possibility of becoming 'Art'

including but not limited to... is this legal talk?

*replace with the appropriate noun of your choosing..

Atwooki

iwask

10-28-2003, 09:30 AM

hey Mark

I'm sorry I make a mistake.
I know your meaning now.
Thank you for your idea and help,MARK.

Protoplasma

10-28-2003, 10:37 AM

First off all I`d like to congratulate the cg-community to this great new forum.
I read the article by Dr. Snoswell and the FAQ`s but one point is unclear to me. As I understand, this forum`s critique should help to maximise an artwork`s impression on the viewer. I am developing a new corporate design at work for another company and this job is the most important one i ever had yet.
Corporate design LIVES by the feelings of a viewer / customer. they (most) instinctively decide whether the want to start a business connection or not.
So, the effect is most important.
And that is my question: Is EVOCATIVE the right place for me to discuss about the cd`s development or not ?
As i said - this job is really important and i can`t even say if i can post everything. If its not the right one please don`t feel offended and delete the post.
thanks in forward

colkai

10-28-2003, 11:37 AM

I think this is an excellent idea.

Whilst there is no doubt, I find technical help useful, the "final push" for me is how to make an image 'feel right'.

Turning a nice 'product' shot of a room, into an atmospheric one.
The room becomes homely, or sinister based on the mood.

Looking forward to seeing how it pans out.

Wonderer

10-28-2003, 12:04 PM

Great! it's that what was missing on CgTalk, feeling been portrait is the goal of every one called artist, and if it was easy, the front page would be thumbnails only.

shadowrover

10-28-2003, 06:16 PM

Hehe, sorry, but from my experience, corporate design lives by how much money was pumped into marketing and branding. And I have serious doubts about any design being able to pull a shrewd businessman into a business connection on its own merit. Of course you can always find a sucker who would be impressed with a letterhead, but that doesn't sound like the audience you are going for.

Don't let marketing people tell you they failed because the logo you designed wasn't "emotional" enough. Kick them in the balls for me if they do and tell them to work harder next time :)

Just pay attention to basic color theory, proportions, and common sense marketing principles and your designs will turn out just fine.

As a very simple experiment, try this: pick up any corporate design (brochure, letterhead, etc) from a company you don't know and never heard of before and see if you get a strange emotional "pull" to give them your money and do business with them. :)

I rest my case.

- Shadowrover

shadowrover

10-28-2003, 06:48 PM

Oops, forgot to mention, if you really want that account, find out anything you possibly can about the tastes of the decision-maker: what car he/she drives, clothes, what he/she likes and dislikes. Design accordingly. You can't please everyone and no matter how sound your designs are it's all going to boil down to your potential customer liking your work.

Welcome to the wonderful world of corporate design, where he who has the biggest wallet is the one who will make or break your design.

There, now I can't be accused of being unhepful. :)

Best of luck,

- Shadowrover

Boone

10-28-2003, 07:19 PM

I applaud CGTalk for the creation of this forum.

For too long, CG has been judged on Technical skill alone. If the work produces an emotion - then it has served it's purpose.

Let the good-times roll!

imphead

10-28-2003, 07:47 PM

That would be design & craft......
True they are, but they still go towards making a connection. Things like tilting the camera, destroying tangents layering elements, picking colors, etc. are all important aspects of creating an image that is attractive to look at, outside of being emotionally moving. My point was that the emotional content of a piece is an important, oft times over looked, aspect of making good art.

Now it has the possibility of becoming 'Art'
Even without the emotional content, it's got a "possiblity of becoming art". However without the emotional push it's got far less chance of becoming a powerful, moving and effective piece of art.

... is this legal talk?
No, it's a conjunction.

*replace with the appropriate noun of your choosing..
Okay... *potato-sack.

muckywetnoodle

10-28-2003, 09:04 PM

Good idea!

Agent D

10-28-2003, 09:19 PM

Man, I'm gone for a day and what do I miss? (Not like studying for that test helped much)

I think it's great that you made this forum, and it will certainly help out all of us. What many people complaining here seem to forget, is that you can submit your image to more than one gallery, and focus on different aspects of the image in different threads.

Great job, guys! This one is going to fun to browse as well...

zionlocke

10-28-2003, 11:06 PM

this will be my favorite forum for my future works! i love how cgtalk thinks of everything!

Xilica

10-28-2003, 11:52 PM

oh HELL yes

Xilica

10-28-2003, 11:52 PM

oh HELL yes

MarkSnoswell

10-29-2003, 12:27 AM

Originally posted by Protoplasma
First off all I`d like to congratulate the cg-community to this great new forum.
...
Corporate design LIVES by the feelings of a viewer / customer. they (most) instinctively decide whether the want to start a business connection or not.
... And that is my question: Is EVOCATIVE the right place for me to discuss about the cd`s development or not ?
...
thanks in forward

Yes you can post here -- but, you would have to give quite a bit of contect about your customer, the market they are in, the current image fassion for the market and what their goals are.

Actually -- its really far more a design excercise than an artistic endeavour... because... In corporate work you are really heavily constrained by all the factors I just mentioned. .. and worst of all is (often) an uneducated and unresonable client who thinks they know more than anyone else when in fact they know far less.

gnarlycranium

10-29-2003, 06:55 AM

And here I was just a couple days ago starting a thread in General Discussions talking about how CGtalk is all technical and never gets into the emotional/creative side of things... I was starting to feel not only truly saddened that it was so left out, but actually afraid to mention those aspects of my own work, since there seemed to be no place here for it to be appreciated...

No more! Now this is what I'm talkin about! Boo-yah!

Soulstorm

10-29-2003, 09:57 AM

Though I really enjoyed the extremely well-written article, I think i'm pretty much the only one who thinks this is a bad idea. You mustn't seperate emotional/evocative art from just a well rendered 2d paiting or 3d model. Sure i agree that the two are totally different, but if you're gonna make an entire forum for it you're pretty much only gonna get angsty teens trying to be deep, and often with poorly made art (sorry if i sound a bit elitist there). I wonder if anyone agrees with me on this, and even if anyone actually reads until this page instead of just commenting to say its a great idea.

iwask

10-29-2003, 01:33 PM

Originally posted by Soulstorm
Though I really enjoyed the extremely well-written article, I think i'm pretty much the only one who thinks this is a bad idea. You mustn't seperate emotional/evocative art from just a well rendered 2d paiting or 3d model. Sure i agree that the two are totally different, but if you're gonna make an entire forum for it you're pretty much only gonna get angsty teens trying to be deep, and often with poorly made art (sorry if i sound a bit elitist there). I wonder if anyone agrees with me on this, and even if anyone actually reads until this page instead of just commenting to say its a great idea.

I read your article carefully

But I think Mark's idea was good.

Garma

10-29-2003, 01:48 PM

Originally posted by Soulstorm
Sure i agree that the two are totally different, but if you're gonna make an entire forum for it you're pretty much only gonna get angsty teens trying to be deep, and often with poorly made art (sorry if i sound a bit elitist there).

Got your point and I think it's true, but well, we kindly suggest going back to the drawing table and the modelling room because the mistakes interfere with the mood of the picture, and they will go back and we live happily ever after.

No problems so far. And then we have the stunning art that is technical outstanding but lacks a feeling, the emotion. That's what this forum is for. If we can make those pieces perfect by adding emotion I guess we accept the other pieces that come with it.

cheers

SketchPad

10-29-2003, 03:10 PM

First off - Great Idéa! I'm really looking forward to this forum.

BUT....

I'm a bit worried about it, because it could end up as another "focused critique" where everyone
basically are silent, not saying a thing.

What I've seen over time here is that those who get's helped are either the extreme-beginners or the absolute professionals.

There are a certain tendency to comment on works with "easy-to-spot" errors
and of course fan-boy commenting on the fantastic work.

Now...while there's nothing wrong with that at all, one can wonder what happens to the mid-range posts.
It seems like deserted abandon-land where they can't come any further because noone
has anything to say, it's not good enough to make the better artists "bother" to help
and it's too good for the rest to point out basic technical errors.

Example - some images & works & w.i.p's I post - rarely or ever gets any feedback at all - that is HUGELY frustrating because
one feels that one doesn't know where to take it from there.

I've been thinking - MAYBE the above has something to do with
the expression of the images alone, perhaps they really are
so BORING that no-one has anything to say.

In fact - if things are boring - I'd LOVE to know, and especially
getting feedback on how to improve that so it'd be more
interesting.

God I'm excited about this new forum, I really *hope* that
this is what can PUSH things forward.

Great initiative!

/SketchPad

fluorovision

10-29-2003, 07:29 PM

I think too much partitioning can be bad.

What's the difference between a critique and a 'focused' critique?

Every piece of art 'evokes' some emotion to some extent. This all seems very subjective and uneccessary. I can appreciate why conveying emotion is important - I just don't think watering down the boards like this is a good idea.

How is someone to know if their piece is 'evocative'? Maybe it's very evocative to them. Will we be voting on what's 'evocative' to determine once and for all a homogenized list of standard emotional responses from humans?

Sounds kind of Orwellian to me.

Garma

10-29-2003, 08:36 PM

Originally posted by fluorovision
What's the difference between a critique and a 'focused' critique?

Fanboy comments are critique in a way. But not focused.

I'm a bit worried about it, because it could end up as another "focused critique" where everyone stays silent

Dude I consider "focused critique" the best forum around. BUT because people need time to really take a look at your wip the response can take longer. But response there is, certainly, and focused! I've learned a big deal about modelling chars there from my wipthread in the FC. It just takes longer. I've seen people posting there, wait for an hour and then reply: "no comments? :/" that's what I call impatience.

gnarlycranium

10-29-2003, 09:28 PM

Originally posted by Soulstorm
Though I really enjoyed the extremely well-written article, I think i'm pretty much the only one who thinks this is a bad idea. You mustn't seperate emotional/evocative art from just a well rendered 2d paiting or 3d model.
These things already HAVE been separated, around these forums... because at the moment, the emotiona/evocative aspect of pieces is being almost completely overlooked in favor of technical crits. The idea isn't to separate the two, but to make a spot for the stuff that's being missed, to encourage it.

Sure i agree that the two are totally different, but if you're gonna make an entire forum for it you're pretty much only gonna get angsty teens trying to be deep, and often with poorly made art (sorry if i sound a bit elitist there). I wonder if anyone agrees with me on this, and even if anyone actually reads until this page instead of just commenting to say its a great idea.
That's your opinion. And yes, it does happen, but not all the time.

Only some people appreciate discussions on the emotions in an art piece, and other folks will just roll their eyes at it-- that's how it goes. If you don't like it, and if detailed discussions on subjective, emotional topics aren't your thing, you can post your work elsewhere.

MarkSnoswell

10-29-2003, 11:00 PM

Originally posted by Soulstorm
... You mustn't seperate emotional/evocative art from just a well rendered 2d paiting or 3d model. ...

Its not about separation of anything. Its about getting people to think about and improve an important aspect of their work that often gets too little attention by a significant percentage of "digital artists". The wide availability of digital painting tools and computers is a fantastic thing for budding digital artists. However there is a tendency to focus on technical issues (which do need to be mastered) when there should be at least a simillar, if not greater, attention paid to artistic skills (that would get taught in various fine arts schools) that relate to the subject regardless of how it is "rendered" (2D, 3D media, style - whatever).

Ziye-Liu

10-30-2003, 10:35 AM

Yes, you know this is really what I wanted!
Art!

dreamz

11-09-2003, 11:50 AM

i think this is a good way for emotionaly charged artist to show their stuff, i trully dig this forum, and i will be pleased to contribute, cheers, Tania

http://www.angeltowns.com/members/dreamz/

Blacka

11-09-2003, 01:27 PM

Great Idea :)

This forum is exactly what I need! I am still developing my artistic skills, and now I will be able to have a more wholistic learning process; in other words, art skills as opposed to techinical skills. With the avaliability of computers and other technology virtually anyone can make 'art'. This forum I believe will show people the difference between technical and artistic work.

Kanga

02-06-2004, 04:42 PM

Finaly!!!!

The one absolute most important thing rears its ugly head. When you have got over the technical wonder of it all we are back to square one. I have been illustrating for 20 years and have experienced the evolution from the computer being a huge machine you never saw (punched holes in a card, a week later get a card back with other holes punched not having a clue what the holes meant) to the most awsome story telling tool imaginable. Now we get back to the essence!

There is so much crap out there. You see stuff that is technically dazling but revolting in content, and stuff that is technical crap but brilliant. I guess if you only want to make brilliant models or scripts then this forum won't be of interest and you would go to the 'Focused crit' place (don't get me wrong there is also a place for that).

I am principally interested in character design and animation, but as an industrial designer I don't balk at doing architectural, vehicle or mechanical design and visualisation to feed me before I get discovered by Pixar :) 'Dang it all' the damn thing has to COMMUNICATE! I can't sell a building or a bolt if I can't bridge the gap twix the design and the viewer.

Thankyou
Thankyou
Thankyou

I found a home!

Greetings Kanga

Emiliano

05-16-2004, 01:23 AM

Very Good Idea !!! Congratulations. This new forum has lot of potential to us, who are looking to improve the "inner content" of each picture or animation. I think that the emotion that every work provoques is the esential thing. Techy stuff are only see by profesionals, but emotion is something that reaches every person and mades the real impact, the ones who stay in your mind. Cheerz

LisaT

05-21-2004, 05:36 AM

Thanks first for the article, Mark, and for drawing attention to the issue...

Second, as far as I can see, this forum *builds* us, as the CG community, as digital artists, so thanks to Mark an anyone else who contributes to this forum as intended for sharing your expertise to take our art to the next level.

As the article says, the Evocative forum is about bringing the evocative or emotional element to works that would otherwise be a bit flat or 'lifeless' despite being well executed in a technical sense and perhaps even being aesthetically pleasing, but lacking the 'zing factor' (or ability to evoke emotion) that would make people really want to let their eyes linger...

So this forum is a great complement to technical forums, not duplicating what's already there or a place where people will be posting works lousy in technical execution.

Thirdly, having seen and read about the stunning and evocative images spawned by the Alienware Challenge earlier this year, hopefully CGTalk will run a challenge that focuses on making digital artwork evoke those complicated kinds of emotions on the last page of Mark's article.

t3logy

10-20-2004, 11:53 PM

I read the requisit article, was impassioned, inspired, impressed. Got here, and now wonder, what happened to such a great idea. No artwork submitted, no discussion. Lots of early "good idea" posts but very little if any real substance.

Is this a viable forum or no? I appreciate the evocative focus, identify with sentiments of the founder of this thread/thread, but wonder, what happened, and why it has failed to generate participation.

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