Good vs. Evil: There's No Such Thing

I'm quite exhausted from politicians and religious people talking about evil in regards to foreign affairs (particularly Islam), and propelling this idea that there is some kind of eternal struggle between good and evil in the world.

I think as humans, we're preoccupied with opposites, forgetting there is a spectrum contained within polarized concepts. Good vs. evil permeates our legends and movies. History is viewed through the lens of culture, and humans generally have a real problem with moral ambiguity.

I recently saw a fascinating video on the theory of how the universe first started to expand (the origin of space and time). During this birth, there was only matter and anti-matter in a struggle. Matter ended up dominating just enough to allow the universe to continue forming as it has over the past 13.7 billion years.

I wonder if this neutral struggle for dominance is ingrained in the human subconscious somehow, birthing a meme of good vs. evil. Various cultures (and religions) tend to view good and evil in very different lights. It's relative to cultural attitude rather than moral absolute.

Yes, there are dangerous people in the world, that pose a threat to our safety and our way of life. There are dictators, serial killers, terrorists, criminals, extreme religious leaders and corrupt politicians. As members of civilized society we don't condone murder, rape, slavery, genocide, theft, and so on. These are things that we choose to oppose and dismantle in our societies because they violate human rights.

I think it's absolutely lazy and irresponsible to blame the atrocities of the world on some invisible (and not empirical) force of evil, because such a force can't be truly understood, studied, and effectively combated.

I think we'd be much better off realizing that people take action because of what they think and believe in. Terrorists believe what they're doing is good for their country (and many times for their god). Serial killers have very good reasons (if you understand their thought process) for murdering their victims. The acts that result in such tragedy are obviously not to be condoned, but ultimately it's a process of warped thinking that drives people to do horrible things, not an invisible force.

The universe is indiscriminate in tragedy, and ultimately indifferent in human affairs. When we make foreign policy decisions (and really any other public policy decision) we must look at it rationally, trying to understand the motives of those who try to violate essential human rights. No invisible presence of good or evil (aka God and Satan) should be considered in these affairs. They are imaginary.

With an increasingly Christian military (evangelicals are proselytizing all over the place) and people of faith in public office, we must be wary of the consequences of superstition in relation to our freedoms, our national security, and ultimately our lives. Be afraid of superstition and irrational thought, not of an invisible force of evil in the world.

139 comments:

Absolutely! FFRF's Free Thought Radio this week had a program that was all about the that the gun sights on many of the U.S. military rifles in Iraq and Iran have scripture verses engraved on them by the corporation that makes them under a multi-million dollar government contract.

The troops refer to these as "Jesus rifles" and "the fire of God". As the story breaking, it inflames those in the Islamic world who raise the whole "Crusade thing" and "our god versus your god" and "good versus evil" issue.

Dualistic (or binary) thinking is pervasive throughout our society. I believe it is nothing more than intellectual laziness at best, or worse, a block against true understanding. The world is easier to expain if all is right/wrong, black/white, evil/good, right/left dualities.

This simplistic view discounts all shades of gray plus the entire color spectrum, ergo, most conditions of reality. I think, explained as such, it is evident why dualism is employed by the adherents of dogma. If only two conditions exist, nothing else need be known nor explained.

I prefer my world panchromatic and full grayscale, it is more interesting.

The Holy Bible was written by men divinely inspired and is God's revelation of Himself to man. It is a perfect treasure of divine instruction. It has God for its author, salvation for its end, and truth, without any mixture of error, for its matter. Therefore, all Scripture is totally true and trustworthy. It reveals the principles by which God judges us, and therefore is, and will remain to the end of the world, the true center of Christian union, and the supreme standard by which all human conduct, creeds, and religious opinions should be tried. All Scripture is a testimony to Christ, who is Himself the focus of divine revelation.

Man is the special creation of God, made in His own image. He created them male and female as the crowning work of His creation. The gift of gender is thus part of the goodness of God's creation. In the beginning man was innocent of sin and was endowed by his Creator with freedom of choice. By his free choice man sinned against God and brought sin into the human race. Through the temptation of Satan man transgressed the command of God, and fell from his original innocence whereby his posterity inherit a nature and an environment inclined toward sin. Therefore, as soon as they are capable of moral action, they become transgressors and are under condemnation. Only the grace of God can bring man into His holy fellowship and enable man to fulfill the creative purpose of God. The sacredness of human personality is evident in that God created man in His own image, and in that Christ died for man; therefore, every person of every race possesses full dignity and is worthy of respect and Christian love.

Salvation involves the redemption of the whole man, and is offered freely to all who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, who by His own blood obtained eternal redemption for the believer. In its broadest sense salvation includes regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification. There is no salvation apart from personal faith in Jesus Christ as Lord.

A. Regeneration, or the new birth, is a work of God's grace whereby believers become new creatures in Christ Jesus. It is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit through conviction of sin, to which the sinner responds in repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Repentance and faith are inseparable experiences of grace.

Repentance is a genuine turning from sin toward God. Faith is the acceptance of Jesus Christ and commitment of the entire personality to Him as Lord and Saviour.

B. Justification is God's gracious and full acquittal upon principles of His righteousness of all sinners who repent and believe in Christ. Justification brings the believer unto a relationship of peace and favor with God.

C. Sanctification is the experience, beginning in regeneration, by which the believer is set apart to God's purposes, and is enabled to progress toward moral and spiritual maturity through the presence and power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in him. Growth in grace should continue throughout the regenerate person's life.

D. Glorification is the culmination of salvation and is the final blessed and abiding state of the redeemed.

Election is the gracious purpose of God, according to which He regenerates, justifies, sanctifies, and glorifies sinners. It is consistent with the free agency of man, and comprehends all the means in connection with the end. It is the glorious display of God's sovereign goodness, and is infinitely wise, holy, and unchangeable. It excludes boasting and promotes humility.

All true believers endure to the end. Those whom God has accepted in Christ, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never fall away from the state of grace, but shall persevere to the end. Believers may fall into sin through neglect and temptation, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, and bring reproach on the cause of Christ and temporal judgments on themselves; yet they shall be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.

A New Testament church of the Lord Jesus Christ is an autonomous local congregation of baptized believers, associated by covenant in the faith and fellowship of the gospel; observing the two ordinances of Christ, governed by His laws, exercising the gifts, rights, and privileges invested in them by His Word, and seeking to extend the gospel to the ends of the earth. Each congregation operates under the Lordship of Christ through democratic processes. In such a congregation each member is responsible and accountable to Christ as Lord. Its scriptural officers are pastors and deacons. While both men and women are gifted for service in the church, the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture.

The New Testament speaks also of the church as the Body of Christ which includes all of the redeemed of all the ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.

Christian baptism is the immersion of a believer in water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is an act of obedience symbolizing the believer's faith in a crucified, buried, and risen Saviour, the believer's death to sin, the burial of the old life, and the resurrection to walk in newness of life in Christ Jesus. It is a testimony to his faith in the final resurrection of the dead. Being a church ordinance, it is prerequisite to the privileges of church membership and to the Lord's Supper.

The Lord's Supper is a symbolic act of obedience whereby members of the church, through partaking of the bread and the fruit of the vine, memorialize the death of the Redeemer and anticipate His second coming.

The first day of the week is the Lord's Day. It is a Christian institution for regular observance. It commemorates the resurrection of Christ from the dead and should include exercises of worship and spiritual devotion, both public and private. Activities on the Lord's Day should be commensurate with the Christian's conscience under the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

The Kingdom of God includes both His general sovereignty over the universe and His particular kingship over men who willfully acknowledge Him as King. Particularly the Kingdom is the realm of salvation into which men enter by trustful, childlike commitment to Jesus Christ. Christians ought to pray and to labor that the Kingdom may come and God's will be done on earth. The full consummation of the Kingdom awaits the return of Jesus Christ and the end of this age.

Great article. (Also very well written and clear.) Indeed this good vs. evil notion is ingrained somehow.

Whether this arrives from the matter and anti-matter aspect within the forming universe or not, or just simple conditioning through those cultural trends (tribalism - us against you - we're good and you're bad - god is on our side and against you - was a long held survival trait of early humans and remains today), assuredly the notion plays a role in our thoughts towards others (and their cultures).

Reminds me of the nature vs. nurture discussions regarding crime and tendencies within certain segments of society. In the end, we should be more discerning of our thoughts. Too many will indiscriminately kill as long as they think this pleases god - and they have been conditioned to feel they are.

But when one refers to god and Satan specifically, this refers to primitive religious texts that have shaped (through indoctrination and fear) this universal struggle of the forces of good and evil and have molded those so emotionally needy of religious structure, a thought system adherent to such wayward assessments.

Indeed, in the biblical narrative, god admits (several times with pride) that he creates this evil. Religious doctrine holds that this is god's way of sorting out who will loyalty conduct themselves according to his word (which is a preposterous notion worthy of a separate discussion) vs. who will not. So these two eternal forces (both created by god - the alleged good one) and the evil of Satan battle relentlessly.

Ironically, even per the biblical text, Satan never harmed anyone directly, while god murders both directly and indirectly, a number in excess of Hitler, Stalin and Attila combined. Yet, god (Yahweh) is the good one. Its forced logic and tellingly of internal matters with such believers.

Such adherents are captive by their own flawed thoughts.

Brings to mind a rock song titled "Captive Honor." The song continues with "Captive honor ain't no honor." Lyrics: "Battles without for barriers within Where evil lives and evil rules... And when you kill a man you're a murderer, Kill many and you're a conqueror, Kill them all...oh you're a god! Your Honor, we find the defendant guilty! On all counts for crimes against all humanity."

Just where does the killing of the innocents get lost in the thirst for bloodshed all in the name of good...ironically against the evil? Yet, humans are still like this today. If I had a nickel for every time I have heard someone say that "we (America) should just nuke the whole Middle East and end it all..." I would be able to feed all of Haiti myself.

Even in our movies, as producers, writers and directors will confirm, we NEED our bad guys to give the hero someone (something) to conquer. We're still slaying our dragons; we're just putting different faces and names upon them.

Thank goodness I was able to swing getting the day off today. This is too good to miss!

1. The Bile is NOT the inerrant word of God. It was written and inspired by Man. It IS errant, very errant.

2. It is not perfect, but rather dehumanizing, degrading, and many other things.

3. It has many HUMAN authors, but there is no God that is it's author.

4. It has many errors and contradictions.

5. It is NOT truth or salvation, but rather a source of misery for much of human kind because it is dehumanizing and degrading.

6. It's principles are that which other humans judge others, not some supreme being.

7. It is full of superstition, pagan gods (even Moses has a volcano god), and rewritten mythology.

8. It is a testimony to nothing but myth and superstition.

9. You can throw out as much scripture as you like, but that does not change the fact it is rewritten mythology, set to a specific culture, errant, written by Man, and inspired by Man. BTW, I can also throw out just as much scripture too. Anyone of us here could, if we wanted to do so.

Here's two for you, from the Gospel of Thomas:

Saying 3. Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you.

When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty."

Saying 77. Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained.

Split a piece of wood; I am there.

Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."

Gospel of the Egyptians:

"Three powers came forth from him; they are the Father, the Mother, (and) the Son, from the living silence, what came forth from the incorruptible Father. These came forth from the silence of the unknown Father. "

Sounds very familiar, doesn't it?

"Then the great Logos, the divine Autogenes, and the incorruptible man Adamas mingled with each other. A Logos of man came into being. However, the man came into being through a word.

He gave praise to the great, invisible, incomprehensible, virginal Spirit, and the male virgin, and the thrice-male child, and the male virgin Youel, and Esephech, the holder of glory, the child of the child and the crown of his glory, and the great Doxomedon-aeon, and the thrones which are in him, and the powers which surround him, the glories and the incorruptions, and their whole pleroma which I mentioned before, and the ethereal earth, the receiver of God, where the holy men of the great light receive shape, the men of the Father of the silent, living silence, the Father and their whole pleroma, as I mentioned before. "

Again, very familiar, IF you understand it. You should read that whole Gospel of the Egyptians, for to do so is to be enlightened about the source of your mythology. Then read the Coffin Texts and the other Egyptian texts.

Gospel of Mary Magdalen:

Saying Chapter 4: 22) "The Savior said, All nature, all formations, all creatures exist in and with one another, and they will be resolved again into their own roots.

23) For the nature of matter is resolved into the roots of its own nature alone.

24) He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

Now that is very pantheistic if I ever saw it. You can find these texts at www.gnosis.org I suggest reading more than just your little book, because you maybe enlightened from where it came from.

I also suggest reading the Bhagavad-Gita and other religious texts. It might be a REAL meme buster for you to do so. Unless you are scared. I wouldn't want to ruin your little dream world after all.

Have you ever heard of a demiurge? Get a clue, DaveJ. You are a blind man fumbling around an elephant. Deluded, and self-righteous too, as Bruno said.

For every piece of scripture you quote, I have one just like from the older Egyptian, Babylonian, and Syrian texts- where most of the midrash of your book comes from. It is nothing BUT rewritten mythology set to a specific culture. I think I covered a few already, but if you want something from the Coffin Texts... I have that too. In the end, your god is nothing but the sun, anthropomophasized.

WebMDave, Please get rid of this delusional lying for Jesus spammer, before I go nuts on him showing him where all his salvation texts and alike come from. I have a few older Egyptian texts that talk about the very same thing, that I could throw out at him too. He has no clue that the various texts he throws out are nothing but previous texts from previous older sources, as well as sun worship.

He's a sun worshiping, delusional, spammer, Bruno. I had no clue that his animistic sun, which is anthropomorphasized into humanoid could do anything. Last I check it did nothing but drive people to insanity. I do hope Dave gets rid of him and soon, before I pull the Egyptian Coffin Texts and other texts that show him "The light, the way, and the truth" (also in the Coffin Text and it is the sun/Horus)

As evidence of this internal (deeply flawed) NEED to believe, just witness this DaveJesus lost lot. He is incapable of any rational discussion nor could he even comprehend the topics of matter here. He simply posts these things because he feels he must to showcase have his own deep beliefs towards protecting his fragile being and, he requires others to witness his intoxication to validate these emotionally programmed beliefs.

He knows nothing of what he spouts. Its pure faith intoxication, just as if he were guzzling this right out of a bottle - like the drunkard whom cannot deal with life any other way. Worse, he feels he may be scoring points with his deity by flowing his pious addiction.

He's deeply in the sauce and can only cut and paste text he's fetching elsewhere because he has no wit about him that can rise above the stupor he's in and even dream of speaking intelligently towards same. (Like a street corner drunk that will chatter anything to get the attention (money) you may grant.)

There is your scope of many things, including Baptism, Eucharist, anointing and more.

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhlalpha.html

Nothing new under the Sun there either and I have all those books, as well as the Gita and other religious texts in my library. Many much older than you Bile and say the SAME THING and tell the SAME MOTIFS! And have many other Apocalyptic stories, because it is a genre of literature, not prophesy or fact.

Get a clue. Research the origins and history of your religion. It is nothing but more mythology, as well as pagan sun worship.

I agree. All he can do is spew out what he has been told and what he was told to read on each and every subject, but he has never ventured outside of any of that and has become close-minded, as well as blind to reality.

Since davejesus prefers to proselytize and quote scripture, rather than contribute something of value to the discussion, I've reported every one of his comments, because they should be considered spam (I'd encourage other users to do the same).

I really don't understand why quoting scripture is even a tactic that Christians use. Since I don't believe in the bible (as I'm sure many here don't), I'm not really sure what effect quoting scripture is suppose to have on me, other than it being totally obnoxious.

Somehow, they think by quoting the bible, that non-believers will be compelled by its beauty and flawless logic and become mesmerized by the text, as if we had not seen these words of "the holey babble" before.

They feel if they can force their own intoxication from the narrative, that somehow we'll get a whiff of the brandy. This is telling of the bible believer - that's why they're capable of believing - because they cannot filter ration for themselves. They're sheep who needs the Sheppard and are angry at us because we do not.

Indeed these types are obnoxious, but they know no better and lack any sense of self dignity to progress beyond this state. Intoxication stupor.

Good idea bretp. I also reported every off-topic comment by today's troll.

He's a "hit and run" coward who cannot allow his beliefs any intelligent scrutiny or debate. Nor can he express any lucid thoughts of his own, hence his need to cut and paste. What a pathetic existence, lacking original thought!

This is an excellent post. I wonder if we think in absolutes partly because our very first training is absolute. "This is a no-no. This is a good girl."

And all throughout school, our behavior is regulated by "acceptable-not acceptable" standards. Our tests are "true/false", our grades are pass/fail, our teams are us v. them. . .I can see how we fall into a good v. evil sort of thinking pattern.

Americans United for church-state separation has filed a law suit about this proselytizing in the AirForceAcademy. The culprits who initiated this flagrantly unconstitutional practice can be traced to Colorado Springs, which is the Mecca for fundamentalists. Am United, with FFRF & the ACLU are in the vanguard of the struggle against the Jezuz freaks.

Forgives us of what? Waking up to the truth? Of doing our own thinking?

Dude, you sound like some robot that's just spewing what its been programmed to say. Do you have any original thoughts of your own?

Look davejesus, we've all been where you are at and showed the same, if not more, enthusiasm for the faith that you are demonstrating. We BELIEVED IT!. WE EMBRACED IT! WE PREACHED IT! WE LIVED IT! But, alas, we came to our senses and realized that it is all a delusion meant to control and keep people in true existential darkness. The light they claim is actually more darkness meant to keep you from seeing the truth of your own existence.

The religious establishment wants you davejesus to not think for yourself or have your own identity. Even the leaders that preach this stuff don't really believe this stuff but because they make their living off of it they keep on because it's profitable.

davejesus, you are, i'm sure, a decent fellow but come on over to reality and just let go of the existential security blanket that is your religion. You will find a world filled with human delights that couldn't even begin to compare with any promised eternal rewards.

NOW Davejesus is the time to live cause once you die, its over. Once those eyelids shut for the last time, that will truly be the end of you. So, get rid of all this deluded religious nonsense and come live davejesus.

What a pity that Davejezuz spent all that time reading Emperor Constantines fairy tales put together at Nicaea, 325CE. Emperor Cohnstantine would be delighted that his dictum "Make them to astonish" would still be reflected seventeen hundred years after HE created Hesus Krishna. But Connie would be sore disappointed that his creation did not have the effect of eliminating wars in his empire.

Chucking catechism at people is an unlikely evangelistic tool, and a fairly blunt one I might add. But kudos on originality. Most people suppose that their heart felt testimonies are more effective than straight up theology. I do have to ask though, why won't you engage anyone? I feel like this is a particularly odd way to win hearts and minds. Oh, and ineffective.

Thank you. :) I intend to be good, esp when up against a delusional Fundie. That was why I originally studied it all. I knew what I was doing when I set out on my journey of studying religion and mythology. I also knew exactly what would happen for me, because I've heard it from so many other students of theology and alike. There is nothing like studying the subject to become un-delusional, no matter how strong that delusion maybe.

Oh busted! lol Don't know how you do it, webdave, but your good at being an internet sleuth. :)

Such a shame few people document their sources, esp when they copy and paste. At least I try to make sure I document my sources when I do a copy and paste job and it's all right there too- in book and net form (if possible).

So, I've noticed. Makes you wonder if any of them went to college even. IF they had, they would have the saying, "Document, document, document" well ingrained into them. One cannot support their thoughts without back up documentation and citing their sources.

I have not yet had a chance to read about the origins and history of xtianity stuff but if only 1/2 of what I have read on the internet is true, there is no way I can ever return to xtianity.

I know I can hear the xtian response to the pre-existing stories is that they are a precursor to/a forshadowing of jc. I say this because I have heard it from the pulpit before. How does one counter this precursor/foreshadowing assertion from xtianity?

IMO, I can't see how it is a precursor if they do not believe in Horus, Zeus, Mithra, Krishna, etc. Such a statement demands the question, "Then why don't you believe in the gods that precede God/Jesus? And why don't you talk more about the Joshua cult that had doctrines much similar to yours? And what explains all the other Apocalyptic stories before John's?" Such a statement brings, to my mind, a whole slew of questions such as those.

My Mum keeps putting little "holy" pictures of jesus underneath my mattress "just in case". So I know exactly where this person is coming from. They beleive that if they force this crap down your throat you will somehow be "inspired" to come back, and act like a labotomised zombie once more, so that you can be controlled by their lies.

listen, we all understand what you are trying to do. however, your head is too far up you own a$$ (and by a$$ i mean religion). You do not understand that there is nothing about christianity that is original, true, or plausible. Do some research jerkoff, everone else on this website has more knowledge of religion than you do. Now why don't you go get full of the holy spirit (and by holy spirit I mean c@ck).

I agree that they are wrong, but relativism is not right either. It is my belief that evolution has enstilled in us certain values that are positive to us and eachother, otherwise it would have been difficult for humans to have become what we are now if we thought killing was okay 10,000 years ago. Morality is one of those areas that nobody has a 100% for sure answer, so christians fill that gap with god. We thinkers fill it with reason. LOVE ALL EX-XTIANS AND THIS WEBSITE. GO US!!!!!

You are so full of nonsense, davejesus! What on Earth is "divinely inspired"? Just men imagining that they were inspired by something "up there", or deliberately deceiving uneducated masses in exchange for power, money or both.

If you really believe what you say then you are indeed, deluded. There are only 2.1 billion Christians on the planet, leaving 5.6 billion who do not follow or believe what the buybull says.

Does your imaginary god judge the 5.6 billion people who have never heard of him or the buybull? What gives your nasty, viscious, imaginary Yahweh, the invention of gypsies, the right to have any say in the lives of those who don't believe in him?

davejebus: "God, in His own time and in His own way, will bring the world to its appropriate end."

Interpreted: Some unknown thing, in some unknown way, will commit some particular unknown act, and everyone should fearfully strive to prepare for The Great Unknowable.

While I accept unknowing (in certain terms) as part of the human condition; your ilk have made a religion of unknowing a Hypothetical Unknown, e.g., you bask, hyper-value and venerate your skill in being ignorant.

Albert Einstein: “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.”

You should print off the following and put it under your Mum's pillow. she might stop believing in Jesus if she can see that Jesus was just a recycled Mithra who was a Persian god 600 years before Jesus.

So we should look up all those quotations in the Bible as if this would be research? Who cares? Who said the writers of this book were divinely inspired? Where's the evidence for that? Saying 'so and so' from this or that church told me this is proof of nothing. Remember where you got this belief? Did God talk to you personally and tell you to believe this? No, your parents or a church did - people.

Going under various names, this is a class of human beings which is susceptible to delusion at both individual and group levels. It is a requirement of membership that the new member undergo a symbolic and voluntary lobotomy when agreeing to suspend both disbelief and ratiocination in favour of blind obedience to dogmata for the truth and provenance of which no empirical evidence exists.

Evidence of delusion at the level of the individual is available in the form of the daily “Quiet Time” which all believers are expected to perform. This practice consists of between 30 and 60 mins spent daily, preferably in the morning, directing vocal or sub-vocal requests, pleading and urging at a ceiling in the vain hope that a putative ruler of the whole universe is going to alter his plans for the universe at the behest of the self-centred believer.

Evidence of delusion at the group level was, initially, difficult to discover as the original adherents of the Jewish Zombie creed were timid people who tended to hold their eclaves in secret, lest they be persecuted for their delusion. In our own times, evidence is available freely and indeed, it is broadcast both live and recorded on many “god” channels via various television transmission media. Those who attend the event thus broadcast can be seen declaring their belief that cheap conjuring tricks performed by, in come cases, convicted fraudsters are instances of the laws of the universe being put into abeyance and overturned by their putative god at the request of millionaire shamans. Anyone who lacks access to the televisual media may, at various times during the week, take a short walk and observe the faithful exercising and strengthening their delusions under the direction of a wannabe millionaire shaman, who leads them in into donation to prevent him having to work for a living.

It is apparent that the believer preys upon the vulnerable in order to “lay up treasure in heaven”, which appears to be some sort of make-believe Brownie Point System. There is evidence, though anecdotal, to suggest that the delusion is also spread by a virus which carries the xian meme. There are two innoculatory methods: to become infected and to leave the delusion behind, OR to get a good education and learn critical thinking skills. Of the two, the latter is recognized as the less painful and traumatic of the two courses.

Both options are still available to davejesus, though his does appear to be a severe case of self-reinforced delusion which is often the most difficult type. May reason and education fall upon him with such force that he is woken from the dream, foreswears “copy-and-paste” and has, for the first time in a long, an original and rational thought.

Personally I refuse to believe in flaws concepts like 'good' or 'evil'. Xians and other large religions (and, of course, politicians) often use it to justify forcing things onto people, you know; oh we've got to put the xians into government so they have God's direction on matters because otherwise evil will triumph! We've got to suppress other people's rights and force our morality on them because we're good and anything else is evil!

"Various cultures (and religions) tend to view good and evil in very different lights. It's relative to cultural attitude rather than moral absolute."

This is definitely true, traditional Western culture holds 'good' and 'evil' as locked in a never-ending battle. Traditional Eastern culture sees one as completing the other, they need each other to exist, as points of reference to compare and contrast and see what is 'good' and 'evil'. IMO Eastern philosophy is far more correct.

Let's imagine a hypothetical situation where xians have made a 'wonderful' society just like they want, bible law rules, everyone is xian and lives according to that oh-so-important Word of God. The more fervent xians look round, there's no one they can rant at about how wrong their life is now. So what would they do? Invent a new evil. Suddenly, it is now immoral not to read the bible once a day, anyone who doesn't will go straight to hell! Oh no! So after they've rooted out these horrid heretics who don't read their bibles once a day, they look around, all's good no? No! God's work is waiting! Anyone who doesn't go to church once a day is also a vicious blasphemer! Get rid of them? Good, because now anyone who even reads a newspaper that gives a neutral (and therefore non-xian) view, is also a disgusting apostate! And so on ad infinitum, until we're left with only a handful of zealous xians who will eventually find fault between themselves.

This is why I don't believe in christianity's silly 'xian=good, non-xian=evil', because deep down, we WANT evil to exist, so we can point at it and say, "we're not like that, ergo we're better". Without evil, there's no good, without good there's no evil, and since both are abstract ideas based solely on your own point of view (one man's freedom is another man's terrorist) there is no reason to use them to make any decision or judgement in the real world (not that fantasy world fundies live in where everyone is black & white and God is never wrong).

Ha ha i would be happy if she stopped talking to me, frankly i have been through enough over the years to just ignore it.I have threatened to print stuff off and put it under her mattress if she ever does that again, she asked me what, i said "you'll see" then let her mind wander as to what i might possibly do.It was amusing to watch her come up with things i might put.

Not, at least, until he apologizes for the unjust way he has mythically treated his creation.

Until your mythical god admits to screwing up his creative efforts AND to blaming us, then your mythical god stands no chance of being considered a mythical being worthy of any loving attention from us.

The great white shark has a better set of altruistic attributes than does your mythical god.

Wait a minute. How can you forgive or not forgive something that is mythical? I'm sorry, but I say put such things on the people who have these mythical concepts and not on the mythical concept itself. Can you really blame Zeus for something and then not forgive or forgive that god? Seems just plain silly to me. No insult intended Glebealyth. Could it be one needs to decide whether or not to forgive the humans who act out of these god concepts?

I don't like using the word "evil" either. I try to avoid it, personally. I'm not too found of "good" and "bad" either, but sometimes we make good choice and sometimes we make bad ones. Then there are times we just make choices.

Absolutely true, there is hope! and i want to say this coz all of us should know one truth, that many people in the world have not known God but started judging the Bible and the lives and teachings of the so called Christians & other religions as well. the basic problem is the confusion of what to believe and what not to, when there are lots and lots of so called religious texts available to fool everyone to the core!

God is not a delusion just because you cannot see Him or you don’t know Him... God exists, whose reason for existence is in Himself, and the Bible helps to know that he exists and loves us to the fullest and even if the Bible is proven to be wrong (which is absolutely impossible). God cannot be proven wrong or a delusion and the reason is, Bible is cannot be the scale to know whether God exists but it helps you by offering you hope.

When Adam, Hanok, Noah, Abraham, Issac, Job, Moses believed in God there was no Bible in existence but it was written describing the acts of God in the lives of them that trusted the Lord, so that we can be encouraged and established in Faith.

all those things have been written for us to know how God works in each of our lives. My dear ones who gave up your faith, God is an ever loving Father, even if you don’t want to believe. My dear ones please know that you still have time to turn to God and that’s before you could take your last breath...

It is true, you have the right to choose whatever you wish to but just take a minute to think, if you die and what you believe is true, there is no problem at all but what if, your belief is proven false and you have to face the judgment of God and if there is no second chance.

Please, please turn to God, don’t try to reason things from something written again, first go to God call him for when He spoke to Abraham He did not give Himself any name... Call ‘God’ and He will respond to you, ask Him to help with your disbelief (even if you don’t want to accept this, please)...

My only interest is to let you remind that God loves you, k if you like the word, God, then, the ever living, the supreme, the almighty, the above all, loves you and He cares for you... Turn to Him... :)

Hi there jizz-usKing-o-Kings. Welcome to our humble cyber-home, you jackass.

I was once a very fanatical christian zealot just like you. Even did a little missionary work on the inter-tubes myself. Yep, I was fouling up the bandwidth with bullshit much like what you just wrote.

I'll tell you what really killed christianity for me. Jesus and the Holy Spirit used to visit me regularly. But then this one time I walked in my bedroom, and I guess they didn't hear me coming, 'cause I caught the Holy Spirit giving Jesus a Dirty Sanchez. Not to judge or anything, but I decided right then and there I didn't need that kind of nastiness going on in my house.

How many of them here in this community, believe your reason for quitting your faith life???

I would surely believe your reason but i would surely suggest that you should have made things clearly by testing what you have seen and then taken a decision, that would be appreciated for sure...

And you know something Juan, it would have been the best thing in your life, if you ever have had an encountered with Christ, the one who gave you life by giving His life to you, your life would have been changed rather transformed... Jesus loves you...

Cause, i myself, an example for the change that Christ brought in me... let me share a few of my life’s moments with you... I was born and brought up in a Christian family, i was attending the Sunday school from 3 years of age... and i grew up to be the one who won most of the Bible quiz competitions in the church and in the city... so thru that i hope you can see my life to be in the word of God or the Bible rooted well and that in the Christian community was a good level and within the standards of Christianity but the saddest thing was that I never knew God apart from the Christian teachings… I grew up to a person with no happiness and I engaged in street fights and all the stuff like that… but there came a day when I encountered Christ in my life and that changed my life completely and today I can tell you that Bible did not change me but Christ did and word of God then became real to me and in my past I knew not who God was, being a Christian, and now I know who He is and what He can do in my life… it has never been the same, after that… After all, that is God who is in me. I know it, Juan, until you get to know who God is, you cannot deal with it properly… And there is surely a way to know Him and that is through prayer and submission and faith…

If you have done some Christian Missionary work, that was good but that will not help you know who God is… Anybody can do that without knowing why or expecting some thing good to come into their life… but knowing God in person is the best thing… how wonderful it is to see the Lord and experience His presence in our life, all the time… He was, is and will be the never changing… if he spoke to some one, in the past, He will also speak to you… He leads me everyday… He will lead you too, just pray that God will help you out of that wrong thinking and that will transform your life… You can do the real missionary work, now knowing why!!! All glory and honor be to God alone… Amen

I was once a lay minister, but I studied religion and any god concept I had disappeared. Belief and disbelief are not choices. One cannot force themselves to believe what their learning has taught them to be pure mythology and tribal thinking.

My only interest is to let you remind that God loves you, k if you like the word, God, then, the ever living, the supreme, the almighty, the above all, loves you and He cares for you... Turn to Him... :)

Right - he loves you and cares for you, but if you don't turn to him he'll torture you for all eternity. And it'll be your fault - he has no choice!

Daffy for Jeez is truly a disappointment. At least JKK used his own words (I could tell by the poor grammar and writing skills.) . I am a regular visitor here and on the forum and i actually enjoy a Xtian rant when it shows some kind of originality and the poster shows some willingness to engage at least. My question for daffy is, "Does you god approve of stealing someone else's work and representing it as your own?" (BTW, congrats on the people above who actually found the source!)

When is a Xtian poster going to answer some of the questions i would really like to ask them? If we were created in god's image, does that mean he also poops once a day? Maybe only on Sunday? (Holy Crap!) Did Mary have a holy orgasm when the HS impregnated her? Did JC's parents ever spank him growing up? Why didn't any contemporary author, like Philo, notice all those miracles in the NT. And speaking of miracles, why were so many of them so, well, petty for lack of a better word? Any Xtian that would like to help me on these and many other questions i have feel free to respond.

Now let me ask you one more thing why did they (Jesus & Holy Spirit) stop coming to you???

I am talking to you or everyone else about the true living God not some nonsense, Juan, whom i have met, experienced and am living by His grace, everyday... Now there are two options that is - 1) what i have experienced and am sustaining in is true or 2) your experience which was momentary and seen never again is true... Cause both of them cannot be right at the same time... think of it and answer... Christ is the one who gave His life for you and me and for evryone to bring to life thru His Sacrifice on the cross...

According to the Bible and the truth, it was through one human that sin entered mankind and was cursed and it was thru one man, Jesus Christ, that forgiveness is granted to each of us... and when you experience Christ and His love you will know that... you have experienced religion and not Christ, May God speak to you and reveal unto each one of you, whoever seeks him, amen.

And finally let me tell you this, all of you in this community, the day you feel completely helpless and left behind and when you give up completely and if there is a last breath left in you and you are convicted at that moment, please turn to God, He will not condemn you, even after all that you have spoken against him by killing your conscience..., he will take you in, He loves you, my dar brothers and sisters God loves you so much...

May God bless, lead, guide and be with everyone who wants to get back to God... Amen, in the name of Jesus...

Now let me ask you one more thing why did they (Jesus & Holy Spirit) stop coming to you?

It didn't stop. I still have the neurological experiences you call the H.S. What you are talking about is pure neurology and I experience that feeling in nature, with a hug from a compassionate and caring friend, music, relating to other animals, such as my pets, or any other sense or senses that is stimulated by some sort of external stimuli like what I have mentioned.

There is nothing abnormal about such experiences because they are part of the human condition. The only difference with these neurological experiences is how one labels it. You label it Jesus/Holy Spirit, but I call a spade a spade and call it a neurological experience.

However, if you actually see things during these times, there might be a psychological problem involved- such as psychosis, a hallucination, or what have you. The more you do to increase these feelings, such as fasting, the more profound the neurological experience.

However, the bottom line is, what I once called "God" and what you call the Holy Spirit, I learned while getting a psychology degree, is purely neurology. Just because I don't have a belief in any god of religion, does not mean I don't have that experience/feeling anymore.

I suggest doing some scientific research, particularly in neuro-psychology/neurology, on this subject. You will find that such experiences/feelings are not just seen in only the religious. We just label them differently because we are not religious and do not have a god concept.

Good response. One thing I remember is feeling the HS during church, where I would get goose bumps sometimes listening to the music. Still have that one regularly, most recently while watching a Stevie Nicks concert on PBS.

During my psychotic breaks, I would see crosses in the sky, hear trumpets blowing, and other assorted nonsense. Those experiences don't happen to me now, I would guess because of antipsychotic meds. It further reinforces my belief that "prophets", whether they be the ones who wrote parts of the Bible or their modern-day counterparts, were/are complete schizo's.

JKK: "God is not a delusion just because you cannot see Him or you don’t know Him... God exists..."

Prove it, JKK. You may *not* use the Bible to do so. You must provide a body of physical evidence that can be tested in any laboratory in the world, and which yields similar results to multiple experiments.

"...but what if, your belief is proven false and you have to face the judgment of God and if there is no second chance."

You, sir or madam, are bullying us by proxy. Your behaviour here is despicable, but not in the least bit surprising from someone who worships a mythological über-bully.

What vwe have here is a dialog of the doorknob deaf. For all the good we have done in relieving the jesus freaks of their delusions, we might have just as well have used cuneiform hieroglyphics in our endeavor to get-across to them our reasons for dis-belief. They will continue to believe in their invisible, imaginary friend, & we're wasting our time.

Wonderful, Not if you dont believe in Him but when you deny His grace, it is not unbelief which will take you to hell, but the denial of the grace through Jesus Christ... You dont remain in delusion brother... For everyone is in sin, but Christ has come for everyone, the worst of the sinners, save us from the eternal damnation... And so now you dont perish in the hell for your sins but you perish in the hell, only if you deny the grace of God, thru Jesus Christ... Hope you understand that... God bless you...

Many of our ancestors didn’t know about many things in the Universe, which came into light within the past few years... Until then they did not know if they existed... so for them they were false or myth but in truth they were existing!!! In the same way, God is always there, doesn’t need your belief for Him to be living!!!

And also when you asked for a test in the laboratory, you know that, you would not conduct the test/s!!! You simply would believe, what somebody else would have tested, may be the one of your kind/belief!!!

But with God it is not like that, it is all about you, where you have to do the testing, in your way and not which is suggested by someone else… So in what way would you want to test the Lord, first confirm that… Naturally, the maker tests the made, but now, the made want to test the maker!!! No problem, you can to the fullest.

No worries the creator will stand for the test, but do understand, try to test Him in His range, if you cannot, you can try your range too… He can and He will stand for your test without any doubt…

You cannot see the bacteria with your naked eye. And if you want to believe that bacteria exists it will not become visible to you, you have to go to it to see it… In the same way, if you want to test God, first believe that He exists and now start your test… Try and use your Spiritual sense, put to death till date… Try and get back!!! All the very best to you… and May God bless you know Him not thru the Bible but from within yourself… Amen…

Listen, JKK, you know in your heart of hearts that we will never convince you that God doesn't exist. We didn't seek you out to ruin your faith. You came to us. Please respect that you are visiting a place that does not belong to you.

You wouldn't get into an argument with a rabbi at a synagogue or with monks at a buddhist temple, would you? No, I'm sure you respect the deeply held convictions about the parts of the world that are essentially unknowable. Respect us and our deeply held convictions.

You know how politics and religion are a no-no as polite dinner conversation? It's because if you aren't absolutely sure what the other person thinks/feels about the subject you are likely to step on some toes. When you came to a site called "EXChristian" The thoughts and feelings of the users therein should have been abundantly clear. Why are you deliberately stepping on toes? You may have had the best intentions but the fact is you've left our feet bruised and battered by your stomping.

"God is always there, doesn’t need your belief for Him to be living!!!"

I doubt that very much. Again, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that your god exists.

"And also when you asked for a test in the laboratory, you know that, you would not conduct the test/s!!! You simply would believe, what somebody else would have tested, may be the one of your kind/belief!!!"

JKK, I have a science background. I know enough to look at the raw data, follow the experiments, and determine for Myself whether it all makes sense. Given the correct equipment, I could probably perform the experiment Myself. No faith is required.

You, however, are dependent on faith because you have no actual data. If you had evidence you would have provided it, rather than claiming that we had faith, too. (That, by the way, is the logical fallacy of tu quoque and does nothing to bolster your argument.)

"You cannot see the bacteria with your naked eye."

That's why we have microscopes. There is, however, no scientific instrument currently available for detecting or measuring gods or other such woo-woo.

"Try and use your Spiritual sense, put to death till date… Try and get back!!!"

WTF is a "spiritual sense", other than someone believing because they want to believe? (And get back where? I'm where I want to be.)

I agree that they are wrong, but relativism is not right either. It is my belief that evolution has enstilled in us certain values that are positive to us and eachother, otherwise it would have been difficult for humans to have become what we are now if we thought killing was okay 10,000 years ago. Morality is one of those areas that nobody has a 100% for sure answer, so christians fill that gap with god. We thinkers fill it with reason. LOVE ALL EX-XTIANS AND THIS WEBSITE. GO US!!!!!

Absolutely! FFRF's Free Thought Radio this week had a program that was all about the that the gun sights on many of the U.S. military rifles in Iraq and Iran have scripture verses engraved on them by the corporation that makes them under a multi-million dollar government contract.

The troops refer to these as "Jesus rifles" and "the fire of God". As the story breaking, it inflames those in the Islamic world who raise the whole "Crusade thing" and "our god versus your god" and "good versus evil" issue.

Dualistic (or binary) thinking is pervasive throughout our society. I believe it is nothing more than intellectual laziness at best, or worse, a block against true understanding. The world is easier to expain if all is right/wrong, black/white, evil/good, right/left dualities.

This simplistic view discounts all shades of gray plus the entire color spectrum, ergo, most conditions of reality. I think, explained as such, it is evident why dualism is employed by the adherents of dogma. If only two conditions exist, nothing else need be known nor explained.

I prefer my world panchromatic and full grayscale, it is more interesting and beautiful.

The Kingdom of God includes both His general sovereignty over the universe and His particular kingship over men who willfully acknowledge Him as King. Particularly the Kingdom is the realm of salvation into which men enter by trustful, childlike commitment to Jesus Christ. Christians ought to pray and to labor that the Kingdom may come and God's will be done on earth. The full consummation of the Kingdom awaits the return of Jesus Christ and the end of this age.

The first day of the week is the Lord's Day. It is a Christian institution for regular observance. It commemorates the resurrection of Christ from the dead and should include exercises of worship and spiritual devotion, both public and private. Activities on the Lord's Day should be commensurate with the Christian's conscience under the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

Have you ever heard of a demiurge? Get a clue, DaveJ. You are a blind man fumbling around an elephant. Deluded, and self-righteous too, as Bruno said.

For every piece of scripture you quote, I have one just like from the older Egyptian, Babylonian, and Syrian texts- where most of the midrash of your book comes from. It is nothing BUT rewritten mythology set to a specific culture. I think I covered a few already, but if you want something from the Coffin Texts... I have that too. In the end, your god is nothing but the sun, anthropomophasized.

As evidence of this internal (deeply flawed) NEED to believe, just witness this DaveJesus lost lot. He is incapable of any rational discussion nor could he even comprehend the topics of matter here. He simply posts these things because he feels he must to showcase his own deep beliefs towards protecting his fragile being and, he requires others to witness his intoxication to validate these emotionally programmed beliefs within himself.

He has no pride nor humility. He knows nothing of what he spouts. Its pure faith intoxication, just as if he were guzzling this right out of a bottle - like the drunkard whom cannot deal with life any other way. Worse, he feels he may be scoring points with his deity by flowing his pious addiction.

He's deeply in the sauce and can only cut and paste text he's fetching elsewhere because he has no wit about him that can rise above the stupor he's in and even dream of speaking intelligently towards same. (Like a street corner drunk that will chatter anything to get the attention (money) you may grant.)

As evidence of this internal (deeply flawed) NEED to believe, just witness this DaveJesus lost lot. He is incapable of any rational discussion nor could he even comprehend the topics of matter here. He simply posts these things because he feels he must to showcase his own deep beliefs towards protecting his fragile being and, he requires others to witness his intoxication to validate these emotionally programmed beliefs within himself.

He has no pride nor humility. He knows nothing of what he spouts. Its pure faith intoxication, just as if he were guzzling this right out of a bottle - like the drunkard whom cannot deal with life any other way. Worse, he feels he may be scoring points with his deity by flowing his pious addiction.

He's deeply in the sauce and can only cut and paste text he's fetching elsewhere because he has no wit about him that can rise above the stupor he's in and even dream of speaking intelligently towards same. (Like a street corner drunk that will chatter anything to get the attention (money) you may grant.)