1 who says the correct gto response to someone chking back flops is to donk? In fact, gto strategy doesn't change depending on your opponent's strategy. So the fact that your opponent is chking back flops shouldn't effect your overall strat at all.

There is a reason that donk betting isn't a big part of a pure gto strat: c betting is generally correct. If your opponent wants to pass up the opportunity to do so, generally, that's good for you.

I'll also question any strat that narrows your range signifigantly while your opponent's range is still very wide. Think of the info you give up as an exchange. You are trying to give as little for as much as you can.

I'm going to decline to comment on what I think the propper adjustment is to this kind of play for a couple of reasons.

First, a lot of very good players use chk backs as a big part of their arsenal to exploit some of the misconceptions floating around in this thread.

Second, I've spent a ton of time and effort exploring this very topic through my own study and through talk with very good players. I don't really feel the need to give anyone on the planet a shortcut through this work.

Third, i've given you all you need to figure it out. You just need to read between the lines and think a little. Most of you will probably continue to play the same which is fine by me.

2 I've said before that donking can be an okay exploitative measure against bad players. But often these players can be exploited even more using other tactics.

Like I've said, I have more experience playing against this player type than most. So I know what I'm talking about here.

If we aren't actually going to discuss strategy on the poker forums, why do they exist? They're only for discussing the meh stuff, and the "very good players" get together in private and discuss the real strategies?

Right, wrong, or indifferent, your theories on the matter are unstated. You're basically putting out your reputation and saying, "I'm a lot better than most of you, but I'm not talking about how I'd actually play in these spots. Because my way is so much better than what was suggested, the current discussion is clearly worthless." You've got some buddies to back you up. As long as you and your discussion group are clearly the best players around, you've chosen a +EV course. Additionally are you the best theorists? As long as there is nothing to be learned from an open discussion, you've nailed it.

Honestly, I'm fine with the proposition that flop donking is a tool to be used against idiots. The tone of the discussion kind of gets me, though. I was around here when Abdul, Daniel, and a bunch of other real high stakes pros were discussing real poker on public forums. I assume it improved their games b/c they kept doing it; defending your ideas can often help make them stronger. The idea that modern internet players are terrified that people might learn their secrets is odd to me.

Is it the new mode that once a discussion gets to a certain level, it has to be off the forums and shared via IM? We'll just all use the forums to help out n00bs and maybe drum up some customers for our coaching business? I don't intend this to be a sarcastic shot at you. I know that you're probably in the majority for feeling the way your post indicates that you do. How do you feel about the forums? Is honest, open, and complete discussion of ideas -EV these days?

If we aren't actually going to discuss strategy on the poker forums, why do they exist? They're only for discussing the meh stuff, and the "very good players" get together in private and discuss the real strategies?

Right, wrong, or indifferent, your theories on the matter are unstated. You're basically putting out your reputation and saying, "I'm a lot better than most of you, but I'm not talking about how I'd actually play in these spots. Because my way is so much better than what was suggested, the current discussion is clearly worthless." You've got some buddies to back you up. As long as you and your discussion group are clearly the best players around, you've chosen a +EV course. Additionally are you the best theorists? As long as there is nothing to be learned from an open discussion, you've nailed it.

Honestly, I'm fine with the proposition that flop donking is a tool to be used against idiots. The tone of the discussion kind of gets me, though. I was around here when Abdul, Daniel, and a bunch of other real high stakes pros were discussing real poker on public forums. I assume it improved their games b/c they kept doing it; defending your ideas can often help make them stronger. The idea that modern internet players are terrified that people might learn their secrets is odd to me.

Is it the new mode that once a discussion gets to a certain level, it has to be off the forums and shared via IM? We'll just all use the forums to help out n00bs and maybe drum up some customers for our coaching business? I don't intend this to be a sarcastic shot at you. I know that you're probably in the majority for feeling the way your post indicates that you do. How do you feel about the forums? Is honest, open, and complete discussion of ideas -EV these days?

its not 2006 anymore, poker forums are now all about dick swinging / losing HU competitons.

If we aren't actually going to discuss strategy on the poker forums, why do they exist? They're only for discussing the meh stuff, and the "very good players" get together in private and discuss the real strategies?

Right, wrong, or indifferent, your theories on the matter are unstated. You're basically putting out your reputation and saying, "I'm a lot better than most of you, but I'm not talking about how I'd actually play in these spots. Because my way is so much better than what was suggested, the current discussion is clearly worthless." You've got some buddies to back you up. As long as you and your discussion group are clearly the best players around, you've chosen a +EV course. Additionally are you the best theorists? As long as there is nothing to be learned from an open discussion, you've nailed it.

Honestly, I'm fine with the proposition that flop donking is a tool to be used against idiots. The tone of the discussion kind of gets me, though. I was around here when Abdul, Daniel, and a bunch of other real high stakes pros were discussing real poker on public forums. I assume it improved their games b/c they kept doing it; defending your ideas can often help make them stronger. The idea that modern internet players are terrified that people might learn their secrets is odd to me.

Is it the new mode that once a discussion gets to a certain level, it has to be off the forums and shared via IM? We'll just all use the forums to help out n00bs and maybe drum up some customers for our coaching business? I don't intend this to be a sarcastic shot at you. I know that you're probably in the majority for feeling the way your post indicates that you do. How do you feel about the forums? Is honest, open, and complete discussion of ideas -EV these days?

I am in a study group, yes. Is it super secret? No. Do I hold back strategy on 2+2? No, not that my advice is that great or anything. Nothing personal against OTR, and I wasn't going to say anything. When I saw Doug's post, though, I just had to say +1. Also, I am afraid that the trend of withholding the "real" stuff is growing so it's not like he is unique in his view.

u guys are not serious right? If i were to spend countless hour studying and improving my game why the the f.uck would i spend days explaining a subject that is complicated for free. It not like a beginner subject where he can give a quick advise on.

out of all the high stake player he one of the people that actually still coach hu and at a decent rate. I remember a thread back when people were bashing him for coaching hu when it was "dying".

I mean yeah his post does have some ego in it but he pretty much give a quick answer to why it not advise to donk and you can go from there to figuring out why.

LOL at anyone thinking I don't contribute enough advanced strat posts to this or any other thread. Frankly I'm a bit insulted. Here are the facts: I coach and make videos well below my winrate, I post advanced strategy here and on DC, and I am willing to talk to pretty much anyone who IM's me with a question.

Honestly, I do all of this because I enjoy teachng. I realize this is -EV for me, but I've always considered myself a teacher first. This doesn't mean I'm going to tell you exactly what I'm going to do in any given situation. I don't find that to be a helpful teaching tactic. I try to give people the tools they need to figure it out themselves.

Also it's frustrating when I'm one of the only winning high stakes regulars who regularly post strat and hold back very little and still get posts like DougL's directed at me.

Anyway, that's what I thought I was doing here. I think if you look back at my posts you'll find that you can figure out what I think the correct course of action is here. You're all smart people. I'm going to treat you as such:

1. I don't think donking is usually correct against frequent chk backs.
2. I want my range to be as opaque as possible for as long as possible.
3. I want to take advantage of my opponents relatively narrow range vs. my wide range.
4. The pot is small because there was no c-bet.

All of that were in my original posts. If you don't think I've stated my theory straightforwardly enough, Doug, I don't know what to tell you. I think I have.

u guys are not serious right? If i were to spend countless hour studying and improving my game why the the f.uck would i spend days explaining a subject that is complicated for free. It not like a beginner subject where he can give a quick advise on.

out of all the high stake player he one of the people that actually still coach hu and at a decent rate. I remember a thread back when people were bashing him for coaching hu when it was "dying".

I mean yeah his post does have some ego in it but he pretty much give a quick answer to why it not advise to donk and you can go from there to figuring out why.

I've got no issues with OTR having ego; imo, he's got the chops to back it up. I think that there is a real question about the value of open forums. I quoted his post in specific, but it isn't like there aren't tons of people who feel the same, even 3/6 players. I'm not saying OTR is a jerk for feeling this way. From what I've seen, he's a really decent guy.

Quote:

If i were to spend countless hour studying and improving my game why the the f.uck would i spend days explaining a subject that is complicated for free.

I'm re-quoting this, because it is the heart of the matter. The only reason to do so as related to your EV would be that explaining it, that someone else might point out a hole in your thinking (and thereby allow you to improve), or because giving information away could raise your profile as a coach or celebrity (like Daniel did back in the day). Any one of those reasons can be a good one for you.

I assume that the main reason for anyone to post is to put their ideas out there, have them questioned, and improve their own game. I lurked for about a decade. I can tell you, I've learned a ton more in two years of active posting than almost 5x that much of reading. If you think that there are a lot of people who passively read who are getting just as much benefit as you are... you're mistaken. Now, 100/200 lurkers? I have no idea.

I'm going to decline to comment on what I think the propper adjustment is to this kind of play for a couple of reasons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnTheRail15

Also it's frustrating when I'm one of the only winning high stakes regulars who regularly post strat and hold back very little and still get posts like DougL's directed at me.

I'm not saying you're wrong for doing this, and I'm not saying you owe it to anyone to spoon feed poker strat. I was responding directly to the quoted bit. I've had this conversation with a number of people, and I'm honestly not sure where I stand. You did bring it up. We also had open discussion here about closed poker strat groups (La Peste, irrc), and I know I talk a lot more poker off the forums than on. Should this be the way we're doing it, for the good of the game? It is a fair question.

Even though I didn't state it, just gave a +1 to DougL's post, I feel I should follow up.

I definitely wasn't saying that you don't give back enough to poker OTR. Your videos are great and I have contemplated hiring you for HUHU, and still may if a +1 didn't insult you too much. It was all about the sentiment of holding back information, and nothing based on your contributions to the poker community.

Yea I agree with you with helping each other out. but there also tons of new post daily asking the same question on the same line. where if they just use a god damn poker stove and solve it on there own they would learn quicker. Also before there was no poker vidoes or training site so this forum is all you got for learning+plus a couple of books. so if people are serious they should subcribe to one of the site or get a coach.And I am not bashing anyone but when people ask for advise they always looking for a quick answer instead of how to solve it. free advise is not alway the best advice

What is your longrun wr? Maybe some of us blessed with wr 1.5BB/100+ are enjoying smaller swings...Are massively multitabling?
After 1.5 yrs of playing I just can't accept the fact that there will be 3 break even months in a row.