I keep hearing people saying their guilds are replacing them because they are Warriors. I have one piece of advice.

Get better; better players will do more dps.
Get a new guild: if you are actually playing at an expert level, you'll beat the lazy rogue or DK next to you who isn't. It's more difficult but doable. Yet another reason 25 > 10.

Glyph of Raging Wind increases dmg of WW after RB; it has always been an AOE dps increase for Fury.

I think your referring to the new Glyph of the Raging Whirlwind (yeah, real original name huh?) which causes: "Whirlwind gives you 15 rage over 6 sec, but for that time you no longer generate rage from autoattacks."

It's crap sadly. Fury DPS revolves around quickly stacking Meat Cleaver stacks and cleaving with RB; this glyph gives 15 rage / 6 seconds, and we can passively generate more than that through auto attacks and Bloodthirst over 6 seconds.

I keep hearing people saying their guilds are replacing them because they are Warriors. I have one piece of advice.

Get better; better players will do more dps.
Get a new guild: if you are actually playing at an expert level, you'll beat the lazy rogue or DK next to you who isn't. It's more difficult but doable. Yet another reason 25 > 10.

Not only that...unless you're at a "SUPER HARDCORE HEROIC RAIDING" level and your guild is pushing for world firsts...

Why would they bench a player who shows up regularly, and gives decent damage? Fury isn't THAT far behind other specs(Though it is behind), or atleast not far enough behind to bench a good player over on progression...

"If they brought a mage instead they'd do X more dps!"
Yes. And? If they kicked the DK and replaced him with a mage it'd be the same. Or kicked the hunter. Or the shaman.
But why would you, if you aren't in a race?

It's a lot like Shamans in early T11, actually. We're behind, but not "OH GOD I'LL NEVER GET A RAID INVITE" behind.

Good warriors are an asset to any raid team. You wouldn't just show a good player the door and say "CYA MATE. GL"

Um so when you and I were working out raid comps for heroic progression Im sure "Jace why o why don't you play a rdps" come up a few times. FYI finally got those 9/9 gold CMs done after your non mdps group from 5.0 would't consider me... Good times

I agree a Warrior that can pull good numbers while avoiding as much damage as possible and using ALL of his utility to a high standard is very usefull to any team. These things may seem minimal but during progression can really help out:

1. Dropping skull banner inline with the raids CDs or following on from another warrior's if you have multiple.
2. Dropping Demo Banner and using Rallying Cry when assigned by the strat and if not assigned watching your raid frames to make best use of them.
3. Using Shield Wall and/or DBTS and/or Def stance to soak/reduce damage ie Heroic Lei Shen.
4. Taunting and using DBST when a tank dies, no res left and you are 1% from a kill.
5. Interrupt god with Pummel and Distrupting Shout.
6. Kite adds around with Piercing Howl ie Heroic Elegon.
7. Many more situational things we can do which I have ran out of time to list.

The 5.4 changes to Shattering Throw and Vigilance Focus will also make them more useful to the raid.

Um so when you and I were working out raid comps for heroic progression Im sure "Jace why o why don't you play a rdps" come up a few times. FYI finally got those 9/9 gold CMs done after your non mdps group from 5.0 would't consider me... Good times

I agree a Warrior that can pull good numbers while avoiding as much damage as possible and using ALL of his utility to a high standard is very usefull to any team. These things may seem minimal but during progression can really help out:

1. Dropping skull banner inline with the raids CDs or following on from another warrior's if you have multiple.
2. Dropping Demo Banner and using Rallying Cry when assigned by the strat and if not assigned watching your raid frames to make best use of them.
3. Using Shield Wall and/or DBTS and/or Def stance to soak/reduce damage ie Heroic Lei Shen.
4. Taunting and using DBST when a tank dies, no res left and you are 1% from a kill.
5. Interrupt god with Pummel and Distrupting Shout.
6. Kite adds around with Piercing Howl ie Heroic Elegon.
7. Many more situational things we can do which I have ran out of time to list.

The 5.4 changes to Shattering Throw and Vigilance Focus will also make them more useful to the raid.

thats the "problem" for me, it kinda feels like fury is pushed back to be a tool for others :P - i'll never be able to use my banner @execute range, well in 25m progression that is.

Not only that...unless you're at a "SUPER HARDCORE HEROIC RAIDING" level and your guild is pushing for world firsts...

Why would they bench a player who shows up regularly, and gives decent damage? Fury isn't THAT far behind other specs(Though it is behind), or atleast not far enough behind to bench a good player over on progression...

"If they brought a mage instead they'd do X more dps!"
Yes. And? If they kicked the DK and replaced him with a mage it'd be the same. Or kicked the hunter. Or the shaman.
But why would you, if you aren't in a race?

It's a lot like Shamans in early T11, actually. We're behind, but not "OH GOD I'LL NEVER GET A RAID INVITE" behind.

Were in a position where we have 11 persons in our raidgroup that shows up regularly, and all play at a compareable level and are geared equally (generally we perform around 90-95% of our simmed average for a patchwerk fight on megaera, and are generally doing enough dps to rank top 200 on WoL. To bad we are running with no logs though). However even for a "just finishing" heroic guild, the raidleader has to ask himself the question "what set up will allow us to kill this boss easiest?". I am, as a warrior the auto-sit. Period, the worst part is i understand why! If the raidleader choose to include me over anyone else, he is wasting progress time, he is wasting 9 other persons time just to include 1 person that unfortunatly have a really really weak spec.

The only fight i am not an autosit for is 1 tank fights, yet... unfortunatly our progress raidleader is also os dps... sooo i sit for his offspec role as well cause he is the raidleader. Simply said i am the least viable class for ANYTHING. There is nothing i can do better than the other classes, nothing. There is no argument about this, any class from our dps line up is stronger and more viable for anything progress related. Basically because they have been homogenized to a point where they from our setup are either:
a) Ranged with extreme dps and cooldowns (mage+lock autoinclude! Hunters a bit lower on damage but can also solo dat aoe damage and provide every raidbuff available)
b) ranged with decent damage and cooldowns (boomkin + elemental! almost autoinclude since... ranged)
c) melee with extreme cooldowns and dps (rogue autoinclude for the melee spot)...
and tada...
d) melee with iffy cooldowns and mediocre dps (dps warriors, you really want to make it harder for yaself dont ya?).

It's not even that they want to sit me as a person, cause we are as i said equal in terms of skill and play our classes at a compareable level. it's just that if we are only missing like 3-4% more damage to not hit a soft enrage during progress (Da, lei shen, will etch), another person that can solo soak (lei shen, will of the emperor, elegon etch) and i could go on... it will be the warrior that is asked to sit, cause we are without a doubt the weakest class at our current incarnation.

So your guild would always auto-sit the one DPS class with Demo banner, Rallying cry, new vigilance (Pain sup), Crit banner (maybe not so strong in 10 man)? I'm sorry but to me the reason so many warriors are sitting out, is because people are reading the whine threads instead of looking at the class. We bring a lot to the table. You could even argue that having 2 interupts (pummel, shout) or mass spell reflect is a plus.

Yes Lei Shen is special because you want people who can solo soak, but for the rest? Next patch arms will be the superior AOE spec in the game, and Fury will still have a very good burst AOE (BS even 60 sec cooldown now). Either your raidleader is simply not looking at the facts, or you're not playing your class to its full potential. Some classes do more damage but often at the cost of fewer raid cooldowns. Rogues have smoke bomb as their only raid utility, mages have.... hmm, hunters bring nothing if you have buffs covered. See where I am going?

It's not even that they want to sit me as a person, cause we are as i said equal in terms of skill and play our classes at a compareable level. it's just that if we are only missing like 3-4% more damage to not hit a soft enrage during progress (Da, lei shen, will etch), another person that can solo soak (lei shen, will of the emperor, elegon etch) and i could go on... it will be the warrior that is asked to sit, cause we are without a doubt the weakest class at our current incarnation.

If it wasn't for the fact that more than one Melee DPS in 10m is garbage for most fights, I'm surprised the hunter isn't sat. Unless you happen to have a very good one.

Sure you're not getting sat so your RL doesn't have any loot competition for his OS? Since he is apparently always in and the switch hitter!
Seriously though, this is one real reason I really like 25m better, and wouldn't raid in a 10m with 11 consistent people.

One person will always end up sat more often than the others, and if its happening to you consistently, I guarantee you be falling behind on gear which means you won't have a chance at doing competitive DPS anyways. Not to mention experience, etc. The few times you do get in, its no wonder your lagging behind.

Oliria; Trust me, we know what a warrior brings. Since our rooster includes 3 very good ms dps warriors. That our raidleader is tank is mainly due to a tank leaving the guild our third dps warr joined late and lacks gear. We recruit players, not classes. What i am talking about is prioritization during progress.

Crit banner in 10 man is a bigger individual dps gain for you currently than for the raid in a 10 man setting (even without 4set), this was extensively proven on us wow forums.
Raid cooldowns, yeah we dont have enough cooldowns in the raid... 2 more will... oh wait we can pretty much chain cooldowns for abilities that come with 45 seconds in between to infinity just based on the healers. It's a nice luxury but it is not enough to warrent our inclusion for a raidspot when we lack personal surviveability, you cant use a raidcd to help the team when youre dead cause you couldnt solo or handle an unforeseen circumstance without an external that the tank needed. (I will say this was worse when def stance was 15% due to pvp issues, but still not good enough)
Double interrupts, yeah we used em for farm. However they worked well from the prot side as well though, which was done during council progress along with the pala tanks almost infinite interrupts.
Mass spell reflect, hmmm yeah... if they forget to remove an ability from the "can't be reflected cause i am a boss monster lol" like on ahoo'ru that might lead them to bringing us untill blizzard fixes the bug.

For 5.4 our presence will be much better due to vigilance being usable on tanks on heavy hitting fights, yes. We might be brought for a very good external in that case, as it stands now most of the times you will need to ask the tank to cancel it, pop shield wall+defensive stance while giving him the external or be killed in the process. Demo banner doesn't work on enviromental damage which is it's major downfall, and why it is generally considered a pretty bad raidcooldown compared to most other raidcds. If they moved it from from a demoralizing banner to a moralizing banner with a buff on players in range it would be infinitely stronger although 10% DR still lacks substantial + virtual max health to be "really worth it". Rallying cry is a good cd, and especially in 25 mans in top guilds are chained towards the end of the fight to prolong the time before you die to the soft enrage (if any). But they still arent worth the losses you get compared to the rest.

Archimtiros; yes, i am sure. He always sits himself for me as soon as it is farm (if he is dps for the fight), he is raidleader for progress only (and whenever he doesn't need to sit) and very good at it as well. His dps offspec is a good 20 ilvls below mine at this point, so absolutely not lootwhoring. Please note i am talking about PROGRESS, not farm. We rotate for farm and usually it is not a problem to get a rekill even if we swap out a ranged (most often the boomkin) or the rogue for me. But limiting yourself during progress to an obviously "weaker" choice is just idiotic and bad for guild morale, since you will be more prone to silly wipes due to "missing" class mechanics or low % wipes due to a lesser possible damage output, which could have been avoided if you just brought the overall stronger class in the first place.

Our hunter is very good as well, as i said we all perform around 90-95% of our class theoretical max on megaera (which is the closest we get to a patchwerk fight). ofc we can all sometimes perform above 100% of the theorethical (especially the lock when he is demo on fights) due to the nature of the rppm trinkets, but in general our performance on 99,9% uptime fights perfectly reflect simulationcrafts ranking of our dps on a single target fight (ofc this changes with assignments, amount of adds and so forth). What the hunter always (and i mean always, since he can bring bloody everything) brings is the missing raidbuff/debuff.

Dps warriors supply -12% armor and stam or ap... hunters autoinclude ap + better buffs, druids/prot warrs give -12% armor faster and more reliably without giving up substantial rage/dps time, disc priest is the current allstar of the 10 man team healing setup and brings the stamina buff. So what does a warrior bring to a 10 man team? Again, nothing. At best 1 decent raidcooldown, but the trade off is just not worth it at all in the 10 man setting.

Ps. for all intents and purposes i am only talking about heroic raiding. I was also in on our lei shen kill due to higher execute damage than the boomkin and to avoid to much clutter around the boss in p3, for some reasons 2 melee in p3 made that fight easier for us. Although during early progress when i mainly subbed for the rogue since he had a couple days off, you could tell the huge difference it made to how you need to setup the intermission phases since i can't solo anything...

What the hunter always (and i mean always, since he can bring bloody everything) brings is the missing raidbuff/debuff.
Dps warriors supply -12% armor and stam or ap... hunters autoinclude ap + better buffs, druids/prot warrs give -12% armor faster and more reliably without giving up substantial rage/dps time, disc priest is the current allstar of the 10 man team healing setup and brings the stamina buff. So what does a warrior bring to a 10 man team? Again, nothing. At best 1 decent raidcooldown, but the trade off is just not worth it at all in the 10 man setting.

You forgot 4% physical damage taken debuff? Either your hunter supplies this debuff or you supply this debuff, everything else is covered by your other classes, as far as i see it. Since you got no monk healer 2 melee should be viable for most of the fights, so I assume that the hunter does a chunk more dps than you?

Yes I meant gearing up during progression.
Progression gearing is the most important, gear during farm doesn't mean jack.

And no offense intended (honestly), but I don't believe that you all are doing "90-100% theoretical dps". Earlier you said you were just finishing up H ToT. Through valor upgrades and drops along the way alone over this time, you should exceed the dps/gear requirements for the fights, so the fact that you would have killed the boss if the Warrior did an extra 5% that the Rogue would have done is moot. You already exceed the gear, what needs to be fixed is mechanics to survive longer and/or playstyle to put out more damage on an individual level. I'm not talking about the top 10 world who kill the boss in mostly T14 gear.
Tying into that; you said that your players were ranking "top 200 on WoL". I mean... WoL only HAS 150 ranking spots per spec +75 if you are premium. Ranking top 50 would generally be considered doing very good DPS, 100+ is well.. competitive with the masses at best. Would take look at Raidbots to see the actual ranking vs peers.

I'm not trying to belittle you, you are in a tough situation, a situation that many people are in, especially in 10m. But the reasoning isn't completely valid.

TLDR: Some class/spec is always going to be worse than another. Next tier it could very well be your Rogue complaining that he isn't as strong as the Warrior and gets sat, there is no changing that. The solution is either to be in a guild that will take you because you are reliable, likeable, friend, etc; or to play better than the raiders to the left and right of you.

Edit: Will agree with the part about progression, stronger class means less likely to have a mechanical wipe; but at the level of raiding you are doing, you should meet that threshold through gear/upgrades anyways.

Gogromar I understand your problem. But there are tons of other specs in the exact same situation, I don't believe this has much to do with being a warrior. It's probably more the fact that you're the second warrior on a 10 man team, so you bring nothing new. Monks complain about the same thing, that they bring nothing to the raid. Rets, DKs, Ferals, Enhance all have their own problems of "not being brought" to a 10 man raid. Too many specs for only 5-6 spots, thats the real issue.

I know 10-man is far worse of than 25-man. The same issue many face with not being brought for Lei Shen, is completly backwards for me. I am ALWAYS brought for Lei Shen heroic, because we use the mass spell reflect tactic for diffusion chain in P3. We need 2 warriors, 2 DKs and 2 Locks always. Dark Animus they need me partly because I tank one of the small adds until second Anima absorb, and partly because we need raid cooldowns (not healing cooldowns) for all Interupting jolts. A warrior cover 2 jolts alone, no other class can do that.

I totally understand your problems, but they are related to YOUR raid setup. There are plenty of setups where warriors are brought, while others are being sat. That's the nature of 10-man raiding. This obviously only apply to absolute top end guilds, who aim for world top20 rankings while being undergeared. For anything else you can basicly run almost any setup in 10-man, and still do perfectly fine.

Sry about that, cant get used to them changing to 150 spots. Still used to them having 200 global ranks instead of the 150 ranks per region, top 150 at this point in progression is pretty decent in general. Mainly due to top 50 generally being ends of a spectrum of possible damage possibilities, on top of playing above average -> great. (eg. getting 70% crit on average even though you only have 35% on char etch, having 80% uptime on a 20% uptime rppm trinket and so forth) Great players will ofc figure more often in the top 150, but even average players can easily get there just based on pure luck. As an example: personally i have a dps parse from primo (rng damage fight of the century) where i got bad buffs (crit x1, haste x4 and mas x2 haste x3, optimal at the time would have been crit x1, stats x4 or crit x1, stats x3 and mas x1) and ends up at 273k dps due to a lineup of procs during the sub 20% burst resulting in cs into 4x 1,7mil executes (which at the time would have been nr 2 WoL score). The main reason for top 150 being decent at this moment of progress (near end) is that people should have equaled out on gear and everyone has had a fair shot of getting a "good rng" shot at the fight, during early progression i agree with your statement though.

Yes, we highly exceeds the dps requirements for most fights in tot when we progressed on them. Our progress also depends on other stuff, as the guild doesn't throw away real life and for this tier had some rooster changes at the start of 5.2. The current line-up performs as described, believe it or not. Compared to raidbots as you said, for 10 man heroic vs average of every parse (they were very low, lots of people getting boosted through at this point), we exceed them by far. For heroic 10 we are all very near or exceeding vs average for top 100 parses (in general, rppm trinket procs can ofc punish or elevate you as they please). However both of these things are out of the scope of the discussion at hand and i wont defend them further as it reverts the discussion from "where will warrior be next patch" to "Oh but you're just being sat because your guild is evil". It was merely an example of why we need a buff or more defined niche instead of being a jack of every mediocre trade (and in melee), master of absolutely nothing.

Your example is relevant during will of the emperor progression i was sat despite warrior being the superior damage at the ilvl simply because the guild i was in at the time needed another solo soaker for the rotation to work and be safe. This seems fairer to me, as having less surviveability and/or less utility and/or not being ranged should equal higher damage (that i ended up being in on the 1st kill anyway and forcing us to kill 1 orb every 3 minutes is irrelevant :-P). However that is not the current tradeoff, and people keep trying to defend it with our "socalled" utility. Yes for 5.4 we get a slight utility buff in an external which *might* help, but it is in no way a prudent enough buff since we still lack in the utility and damage department by far comparing to most, if not all the other classes at hand. Oh well, atleast with the deep wounds buff any forced downtime will be a *little* less painfull... *sigh

Read a blue post somewhere, that even said that with 100% safe uptime, melee dps should rightfully be the highest DPS. Limitations in one area should entail possibilities in another. Which also reflect the warrior design as we, much like the paladin, have abilities that does pretty much everything in the game... it's just theyre all (except a very few) currently pretty bad compared to skills from other classes that have less limitations than we do.

Hence in 5.4 the only right spot for a warrior during progression, assuming an equal distribution of skill and gear in your guild, will still be on the bench.

Random ramble:
Another more detrimental way to the game design for allowing/forcing more melee on fights, would be to turn their mechanics on their head and have some that says "targets 2 random DPS melee specialized classes" and if that target isn't meet it targets several additional people or tanks or... whatever to very big raid pain! This would be the exact opposite of what theyre doing with most of the abilities that basically read "spread out at range" to not share dmg, chain and so forth which implies you need to have ranged/healers that can spread AT range and often a minimum number as well. (baleroc 25 hc is a decent example of a mechanic that attempted this, even though the melee one could be hogged by ranged as well...)

Yeah, Im sorry, but this honestly looks more like a player issue than
anything. Warriors (fury) scales pretty decently. And passing on gear is just silly unless it's a BiS item for another or if it's BiS for u.

And I don't understand the issue? If you REALLY wanted to do good dps u'd go fury and if ur guild allows u to stay arms they really can't take raiding very seriously.

I was under the assumption warrior had the worst scaling in the game, next to hunter, and that their damage revolved heavily around their weapons particularly fury.
Without decent weapons you hit like a wet fish, no?

I'm looking at Logs and certainly warriors are underpar when being compared with rogue, enhance, ret, feral. It is also my opinion that Warriors are the dogshite bottom of dps on live, maybe I'm wrong...?

Anyway playing them on ptr with t16 they seem to be pretty fucking op, hitting a raidboss dummy with 525 pvp weapon full t16 and ilvl 525 offparts (boots, neck, rings, waist, bracer, cloak) and the SoO trinkets equipped I'm doing 1mil execute crits and 150-160k sustained dps, while mr arcane mage in similar gear is a good 10k dps behind.