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blake,
set up is typically hip pocket or reverse hip pocket(i can never keep them straight). ex. throw long bird left to right. set short bird to the left of line to long bird and left of line to long gunner. then throw short bird left to right "into hip pocket" of the long gunner. when run as double the dog picks up go bird(short bird) and is sent to the right of the "old fall" on line to the memory bird(long bird).

imho, start wide and teach the concept. work the concept "tighter" in increments, over time so that you are sure the dog understands his mission. be careful of the wind when setting up initially to keep success high and temptation down. sooner or later as you work tighter and introduce an "unfavorable wind" as fishduck described you will get the opportunity to handle your dog(pressure), possibly stop give a verbal "no" and handle(more pressure) and possibly eventually a collar correction(which we all know you are dying to do)

I agree totally that if you feel like you have taught it and your dog has a lack of confidence, salt the area with birds and get your bird boy to help get the dog out there. Nothing succeeds like success.

that's why i'm leaning towards the "burn em to get em out of there" method.

As fishduck (I believe it was him) mentioned, you have to be careful with this. You can create a dog that will not run through a an fall, which can cause difficulties, as well as run a bananna line. I prefer to teach this concept. It's easier than teaching it once they are doing the bananna...

I agree totally that if you feel like you have taught it and your dog has a lack of confidence, salt the area with birds and get your bird boy to help get the dog out there. Nothing succeeds like success.

You can also salt the area with bumpers... black would work on the ground.

rainmaker: i guess somehow you took that two old falls on saturday and a few a month or so ago to mean alot? i'm talking out of a 100 or so derby training marks 6-10 at most. and actually most have come while running as singles rather than multiples

Well, if it isn't a lot, then what's the problem? Sounds normal to me, just keep training consistently, vs looking for a quick fix for a problem that isn't a problem. Something like burning a dog out of an area can really, really do more harm than good in the long run. Your dog is 15 months old? Returns to old fall 6-10% of the time? Not worth the risk, IMO.

....... we went a few weeks without seeing it and saturday it popped up under a scenario he shouldnt have trouble with.

you know blake,
something that has not been mentioned. if a dog suddenly fails at a task you are sure it knows. First look round and see if maybe something in the background or the lighting or some distraction. Like in the Lardy Tapes Mike says if the dog does something odd don't burn, look around.
Then if nothing is odd in the field. How is the health of the dog? Is something wrong? If a Bitch, is she in heat? If a dog, is a bitch in heat 'round? Teeth, poop, bugs? How is the dog?
and dogs will be dogs you know?

edit- think back to these 4 switches. do you keep a log? what did they all have in common?

Last edited by Ken Bora; 06-11-2013 at 09:50 PM.

"So what is big is not always the Trout nor the Deer but the chance, the being there. And what is full is not necessarily the creel nor the freezer, but the memory." ~ Aldo Leopold

"The Greatest Obstacle to Discovery is not Ignorance -- It is the Illusion of Knowledge" ~ Daniel Boorstin

you know blake,
something that has not been mentioned. if a dog suddenly fails at a task you are sure it knows. First look round and see if maybe something in the background or the lighting or some distraction. Like in the Lardy Tapes Mike says if the dog does something odd don't burn, look around.
Then if nothing is odd in the field. How is the health of the dog? Is something wrong? If a Bitch, is she in heat? If a dog, is a bitch in heat 'round? Teeth, poop, bugs? How is the dog?
and dogs will be dogs you know?

edit- think back to these 4 switches. do you keep a log? what did they all have in common?

noting wrong with the dog (male). all males in the other guys truck. background was a non factor as we were running from top of a large mound.

only factor we havent had a lot of experience in was hay bales (this was time i didnt get a correction in) bird boy at 10 oclock 250 throwing angle left back behind a 2 foot tall rice levy. go bird was at 2 oclock throwing flat left. he switched completely before bird boy saw us waving arms. right when it was time for a correction (50-75 yards AOF 10 from go bird fall) bird boy got his attention.

the other time (did get correction) running from a mound was on a water setup. go bird (2 o clock 75 yards total 25 yard swim) bird boy was on peninsula throwing to tip of point angled close to straight back. memory mark was at 10 o clock 150 yards total 75 swim flat left on up slope of a mound.

shorten overall distance of marks? or throws? throws were 15-20 yards from BB Shorten the distance to the mark. Increase the distance of the throw from the BB. All flat throws. You want the dog confidently running to a fall that he knows the location of and he quickly finds.

we were using ducks but point taken. to me in our daily training with bumpers its harder to mark even the white bumpers because they are small in comparison to ducks It might be late but you want the dog looking for the bumper, duck with his eyes when he gets there, you can use the big white bumpers but you probably don't need to if you're in relatively short cover.
singles have been what we throw all week. on weekend training with a group i usually allow this for memory setups. in a week he probably gets 20-25 singles and 5 doubles If he confidently "pounds" those 20-25 singles you're doing great. If not help him to be successful. Let him see the throw that is separated from the thrower (flat) and easy to find once he gets there.

point taken. i would consider us in the mid-late levels of transition.

John Lash

"If you run Field Trials, you learn to swallow your disappointment quickly."

"Field trials are not a game for good dogs. They're for great dogs with great training." E. Graham