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Hello Steve,Thanks for your formatting suggestion. Something like this could possibly be done after we've completed and have our main category titles a bit more "set in stone". Eventually all this could be contained in an online database to make it easy and flexible to "access" in many different and dynamic ways.

We'd have to get a database expert (volunteer) to help us set it up, but I'm sure it could work very quickly and efficiently that way, especially for adding and editing all the entries.

Currently we want to populate our initial list with more content options.

Thanks again and welcome to JPF!Michael

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself. -- Johann Sebastian Bach

I like where this is going and from my novice point of view I liked what you did in your 5.05pm post yesterday where you inserted a plain english description if the purpose of the site.

Speaking from my frustration, having a list of links is very helpful, having another writers/artists comments about it's usefullness is invaluable. I spent many hours on sites that were not helpful or I didn't understand their role in this business.

Maybe once the list is finished we could start discussions about the pros and cons of each of the links with comments from members who have used them and the results they witnessed.

CoolMaybe once the list is finished we could start discussions about the pros and cons of each of the links with comments from members who have used them and the results they witnessed.

Steve,Yes, I think that's were this could be heading. It will be a "living, breathing" resource to help artists at all levels (hobbiest to pro) decide which resources will be the most useful for them. It will be a powerful tool to help everyone along!

Best,Michael

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself. -- Johann Sebastian Bach

Longevity is one key issue. I want to make sure that everyone understands that the links being compliled here are NOT being endorsed by us at this time. We're in the very first stage of a process that will first identify the leading options in various categories (or at least the ones we (meaning the team of volunteers) are most aware of) and then once we have a core of resources to start with, we'll next move on to learning about (or in some cases where others are familiar, getting myself up to speed) and then deciding if those folks are people we want to talk to about working together or in other cases that there's a need for a better solution that perhaps we can fill ourselves.

Getting back to longevity, I certainly think that is important, but not solely the reason to support or decline support to a given resource. Interestingly enough, to date, ALL of our current community partners have not only been around a long time, but they're also leading their fields in what they do. (CD Baby, TAXI, Disc Makers (with a nod to Oasis who are also great folks), Muses Muse, Song U and the Future of Music Coalition. We've been very fortunate to have chosen the right people to associate ourselves with to date. But we think the time might be right to open ourselves up to some new folks, some new models and services (because there's no longevity to be found in many new areas of services and resources) and because we want to expand the services and programs we can offer and since we're 100%, we need some partners who can offer financial support to help keep things like the music awards and roadtrips going and who in turn will benefit from our support and efforts to educate our members about who they are and what they do, especially in the case of a new service or model that can't rely on a long and trusted reputation to win folks over.

We already have one company in mind to bring into the fold which is doing something realitively new and seems to be low risk and big return in nature for the community. Hopefully when we move forward it will lead to some additional new partners. JPF has grown so large and demanding that it's clear we need the right partners to keep growing and to also improve the things we're already doing. So although we're not endorsing the lists of links and resources above, our hope is to pick 1 or 2 partners to work with going forward, OR, in lieu of that, we hope to form our own solution to the needs of our members in that area.

We now return you to our regularly scheduled compilation of resources.

An FYI, part of our new site redesign will already include step by step instructions on how to achieve a variety of tasks and reach a variety of goals. So you're on the track but a bit ahead of the engine still. We're pretty methodical and careful about this kind of stuff and right now we're just gathering info. But I appreciate your suggestion and you're certainly on the same page as we are in that respect.

Brian,I just added the Songwriter's Market: http://www.songwritersmarket.comto the "Publications (books, newsletters, magazines, etc.)" category. I know you've been writing articles for them, so I'm sure it will be a quality resource for JPF to recommend.

Since our posts have grown (2 pages now), I'm wondering if we can move/continue our master list to a "pinned" area for easy access and viewing? For example, it could be posted at the top of the Mentor topics page or wherever. Then I can 'copy and paste' the list code over there when ready. What do you think?

Thanks,Michael

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself. -- Johann Sebastian Bach

You could add the "Canadian Song Depository" managed by the Songwriters Association of Canada. It's a way to register your songs and get a certificate of the same. You do have to be a member of SAC to use it. I find it a good way to register if I have only one or two songs to register at one time.

Re: Copyright.You could add the "Canadian Song Depository" managed by the Songwriters Association of Canada. It's a way to register your songs and get a certificate of the same. You do have to be a member of SAC to use it. I find it a good way to register if I have only one or two songs to register at one time.http://www.songwriters.ca/SRV30.php

Thanks Vikki!Its been added.

Regards,Michael

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself. -- Johann Sebastian Bach

Michael, keep updating the main section on this post and then I will update the overall pinned post at the top of the forum. Just let me know when we need to update it. (Not for every little change.. just after there's been significant updates).

Do you think that every setion should have a simple "do this or don't do this " reponse ( before listing ) ? Most listed are trusted industry resorcoues, but I think the problem lies on the differentiaton between "certified" industry and "could be dodgy".

I added everything except the general advertising associations. If we list those we'll have to start listing every ad agency in town as well. I think we want to stay focused on resources that specialize in Music Industry products and services, whereas general services like ad agencies and online ad services (e.g. Google Ads) are not music industry specific enough.

Same goes for web hosting services. For example, you could use Godaddy.com to save money on your web site hosting, but they won't "cater" directly to your needs as an artist or band, though they might be helpful. There would too many of those to list, so I suggest we stay focused on "core" music industry oriented services.

In any case, I added all your other suggestions and went as far as rearranging some of our categories to now include: Composer & Songwriter Associations, Performance Rights Organizations and Recording Software.

Previously we had "Songwriters Associations" but have added the keyword "Composers" to include all varieties of music and songwriting (with lyrics) composers.

Best regards,Michael

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself. -- Johann Sebastian Bach

Hi Michael there was a thread I posted a while back called useful freebie programs. Folk posted quite a few comments and suggestions as to what software and programs to use. Maybe worth taking a look if you have a minute. I'm sure some should be added to your list.

Michael, keep updating the main section on this post and then I will update the overall pinned post at the top of the forum. Just let me know when we need to update it. (Not for every little change.. just after there's been significant updates). Thanks, Brian

Ok Brian, here's the update:Currently we have 25 primary categories running from "Booking Assistance" down to "Search Engines" with a total of about 150 listings entered.

In the last week I've been able to do quit a bit of "fine tuning" to clarify each unique category. A week ago we had about 21 categories, but since then we've added several more to accomodate some potentially helpful and relevant resources. In the process a few things got "shuffled" around, but I like the way it's taking shape. Any input or specific suggestions will always be helpful!

If you like, you can update this overall post sometime tommorow, which will be February 1st. From then on you can choose to update either weekly or monthly as needed. The main thing is that we SAVE our master list because we've got a lot of input, thought and hours into it so far, so we'd hate to lose anything. I suggest both of us copy and back up the list [source code] from time to time. That way we are double backed-up and double safe in case anything happens. I'm creating a "fresh" backup copy today!

Regards,Michael

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself. -- Johann Sebastian Bach

Hi Michael there was a thread I posted a while back called useful freebie programs. Folk posted quite a few comments and suggestions as to what software and programs to use. Maybe worth taking a look if you have a minute. I'm sure some should be added to your list.

Hello Big Jim!Ok, sounds like it could fit with our current "Recording Software (recording, editing, production, etc.)" category. If you would, please review the best suggestions from that post and list them here. You know where the post is (I don't) and you're already familiar with the discussions, so I'll ask that you to bring back a summary and post your recommendations here.

If we get a lot of software that's outside of the "recording, editing and production" scope, we could try adding a more general software category, for example: "Musician's Software" or "Software Resources for Musicians" or something like that.

Thanks for offering any assistance!Michael

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself. -- Johann Sebastian Bach

Well.. this is still stage 1. Stage 2 will be sending teams of volunteers to check out the web and the sites themselves and come up with plusses and minuses. Since in a majority of the cases here, we don't have official lines of dialog or proven histories with many of these folks so we should collective look into each. We want to be able to recommend these resources to newbies and veterans alike and know we aren't sending them down the wrong path as best we can (obviously it's impossible to know 100% how a company will turn out, but we should make a sincere effort to check them out BEFORE partnering with or endorsing them). In addition, if we find that no companies really do it "right" or good enough for our tastes, we'll put thought into whether or not we could do that task on behalf of our members directly. We have some tech partners who are open to good ideas and business models and love the work we are doing. If we can't partner with someone great, then maybe we can do it ourselves and cut out the middle company and help fund JPF's free programs at the same time.

...if we find that no companies really do it "right" or good enough for our tastes, we'll put thought into whether or not we could do that task on behalf of our members directly. We have some tech partners who are open to good ideas and business models and love the work we are doing. If we can't partner with someone great, then maybe we can do it ourselves and cut out the middle company and help fund JPF's free programs at the same time. Brian

Brian,I think that would be an excellent idea, even if you end up using an smaller (edited) list or not. In other words, I bet you can find a good "mix" of both, so that a general list can be posted "courtesy" of JPF while a more specific service (or group of services) can be offered directly through JPF!

It would really make sense if you can work with a few willing "tech partners" with the right kind of business models.

From a entrepreneurial perspective, in the end it really comes down to developing the right "business model" to fit the right service and marketing needs. This is a priority that should lead any technical or even financial considerations. Having the right biz plan usually wins the day.

Michael

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself. -- Johann Sebastian Bach

Quite agree. Perhaps we could put up a list, and next to the sites which we know are pretty solid put an asterix ( *) along the lines of "JPF endorsed".

Good marketing, and good partnering do no-one any harm and can be of financial benefit to everyone overall. I don't know your busines model, so won't comment further.

Michael - the reason I have all these links, is that I had to go out there and find them myself, about a year or so ago. It took literally months to find what I was looking for, so if we can gather all that information together, and present it in an easy to use format, it would be a great gift to the songwriting community in general.

Might be beneficial to list resources to help folks navigate the major music hub activities if they are planning a visit there. This is Barbara Cloyd's synopsis of open mic venues in Nashville...http://www.barbaracloyd.com/writersnight.htmjust happened to pop in on this thread, awesome work that's been going on here...Moker

Moker,Ok, good one! Maybe we can add a new category like: "Showcase Events"This could include industry conventions, open mics, road rallys, festivals and similar "showcase" opportunities, etc. What do you guys think?

Michael

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself. -- Johann Sebastian Bach

--The best place in LA to buy acoustic instruments, especially guitars - the biggest selection, too!-- The best in customer service - Their employees really know what they are selling-- The best repair shop-- a historic performance venue - everyone you have ever heard of has performed there

Emily,Thanks, MacCabe's Guitar Shop has been added under the "Musical Instruments & Supply Retailers" category. If this list gets much bigger, we'll have to sub-list all these shops by Country, State and major city, etc. I'm sure there must be 1,000's of these shops around the U.S. alone. My, my... what are we going to do with them all!?

On the other hand, we can also try creating two lists; one for strictly online (internet-based) services and another for "brick & mortar" (physical) services. But a lot of companies these days will cross-over by having both a physical and digital (online) presence. I think the "bounderies" are blurring as the internet gets more popular.

Thanks for any other suggestions!Michael

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself. -- Johann Sebastian Bach

Thanks so much, Michael. I suggested McCabe's because it is not at all like most music stores. It has incredible history and integrity, as well as the best guitar acoustic selection I've seen, and it is a well known performance venue. I personally think it is quite rare these days to have the type od customer service that you see at McCabe's! I wouldn't suggest just any music store

Brian and Michael... Because of folks Like Sub and Mike D...,I wondered if we should include demostudios.....at various price ranges, knowing that not everyone can afford a higher priced studio? Gator Hole also comes to mind.

Brian and Michael... Because of folks Like Sub and Mike D...,I wondered if we should include demostudios.....at various price ranges, knowing that not everyone can afford a higher priced studio? Gator Hole also comes to mind. best...Kaley....

Kaley,Ok, might work, but it would only make sense to sub-divide by price range if we had a fairly large (or growing) quantity of listings with a built-in search & sort mechanism.

For example, if we only have 2 or 3 listings, there's not enough data to bother sorting from lowest to highest price range, but if we have dozens or hundreds of listings, a "search & sort" system would be the best way to go.

Ideally the listings would be contained in an online database with an admin. control panel to add, edit and/or delete the various listing entries. On the "front end" it will be easy for buyers/musicians to search and sort the listings. For example, they can search by country, state, city, zip code and also search/sort by service price range.

I don't have the knowlege (yet) to set this up, but it would probably involve some PHP with MySQL database. Once set up it would be fairly easy for one of us (Brian or volunteer) to administer and maintain.

Michael

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself. -- Johann Sebastian Bach

You list the attributes of what you get for the money. A price range (it's sort of a "Good, Better, Best" type of thing) and then list a couple trusted resources for each. But I'd also like to go a step farther. If we're going to send these studio's business, we should either get a piece of that action or some other "in kind" payback. I think that's only fair. In the end, I want to create similar relationships in each category. It's not that we're only looking for money, but I think we should have mutually beneficial relationships and it's about time we had some funding to really upgrade what we can offer to our members. If someone wants to profit from the community, they should give back in some tangible way as well. That's what our community partners all do now.

Yea Brian, I think that'd be great!The more of these community "partner" connections you have, the better for everyone! Ultimately it brings more choices for all of us artists while also "spreading" the costs of running this huge organization among a number of cool service providers. Rather than depending on only three major sponsors, you could have potentially dozens "bread & butter" sponsors, thereby keeping the cost down to something very reasonable like "x" amount per month or year for the basic program.

Obviously not every business out there will spend $200 per month on every program that comes along, but maybe they can afford that much per year for a highly visible and effective program such as you could provide them here on JPF. That could work out to less than $20/month (or whatever...) which should attract a lot of interested business services.

Regarding the recording studio price ranges, you could show from 1 to 3 dollar signs which designate something like this:

Price range legend:$ = Basic concept demos for a quick start. Prices will range up to $200 per project.

I think the prices are too low. More likely $200 and under for inexpensive. 600 and under for moderately expensive. And over 600 dollars for very expensive. I'd never suggest anyone spend over $1000 dollars for a demo or even a finished master these days. There's just too many less expensive options. The exception would be if you wanted a large number of live musicians, then the prices obviously could go up. (like an orchestra etc.)

I think the prices are too low. More likely $200 and under for inexpensive. 600 and under for moderately expensive. And over 600 dollars for very expensive. I'd never suggest anyone spend over $1000 dollars for a demo or even a finished master these days. There's just too many less expensive options. The exception would be if you wanted a large number of live musicians, then the prices obviously could go up. (like an orchestra etc.)Brian

Ok Brian, I adjusted it and reposted using your suggested pricing range. Anyway, it was just the idea of using the little "$" signs!

Michael P.S. $$$$ = Record with the London symphony orchestra and/or high profile (famous) band, director or conductor of your choice!

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself. -- Johann Sebastian Bach

Also, keep in mind that we haven't really vetted out many studios. I am familiar with Sessionplayers and Waymo and of course Mike and Mike. But I have no knowledge of anyone else, the quality of their work or the fairness of their prices.

Yeah, funny about the 4 big $$$$ signs! And I know what you mean about needing to properly "vet out" these resource opportunities. I can usually tell alot about a company by looking at their basic biz plan, what they're offering, how much they charge and how they are conducting their business.

I think they'll be some great opportunties when all the right "winning combinations" come to play. Can't lose if it's a "win win" for everyone.

Michael

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself. -- Johann Sebastian Bach

I think the prices are too low. More likely $200 and under for inexpensive. 600 and under for moderately expensive. And over 600 dollars for very expensive. I'd never suggest anyone spend over $1000 dollars for a demo or even a finished master these days. There's just too many less expensive options. The exception would be if you wanted a large number of live musicians, then the prices obviously could go up. (like an orchestra etc.)

Brian

Brian,This is VERY accurate and makes complete sense for online work, perfect..

Michael,Glad you see having hundreds or thousands of listings for choices is a bad idea. One reason is endorsement. The more you open up the more crap you let fly in, the more nonsense you have. Stand behind a few places with complete confidence and thorough knowledge mixed with experience. Then little by little your list can grow.

When people start complaining about the services we list here AND THEY WILL that's life, think about people in stores... could you imagine trying to defend or stand behind hundreds or thousands of sites we came across and endorsed.

You want to be able to be relaxed and assured whatever problem anyone has it is 99% guaranteed to be fixed and resolved, and know that it was not the fault of the Service probably just a customer who could not be satisfied even if George Martin produced there song You do not want bad experiences to reflect upon your organization. Basically we should know all the worms in the can that we've opened. lol This being the more non industry lesser known ones of course......................................................................................

When the times right I would be happy & without bias to check out other demo/music services for JPF. They fly through our boards year after year and I have checked them all out. Decent deals or Schemes, or whatever, they can't fool this New Yorker lol..I know how it works inside out sideways and backwards. Mike D knows as well. Of all the services recording is one of the touchiest and troublesome. Only song plugging and legal services to the industry would be worse.

I know you guys know I try to give all I can here on the boards by helping it's members in many ways, if I get my health back even half way to normal I will build up work again, this time enough to make a fair deal and monetary contributions to the JPF on s regular basis.Any place that makes business from here should do something for the organizationin any way they can. If it's less personal efforts than it should be more financial efforts or both.

Again unbiassed, If I was only here to make money I would have been gone a long long time ago. I know it sounds really sappy but I care about so many people here and I won't allow anyone to hurt them.

I'll let you guys get back to it, dont mind me I'm like 80% pure emotion!

Yep, would have to agree. Endorsing a product is relatively easy. Endorsing a service can be a nightmare. There are many whose expectations and lack of knowledge on the subject could lead to major headaches. Same with endorsing vocalists, it's really a matter of personal preference. I'd have a real good think about this one before proceeding further.

Hello Everybody, My name name is Phil Dalmolin from San Antonio Texas, Iíve been playing drums for over 30 years and with some of the top names in country music. Johnny Bush, Fiddliní Frenchie Burke, Barbara Fairchild,Adolph Hofner and the Pearl Wranglers, Bobby Flores, Clay Blaker and The Dixie Chicks to name a few.

I get many calls from frustrated songwriters in their own home studioswho canít get loops or programmed drums to sound right or even come close on traditional blues or country music (even most rock). Thatís because heart and soul canít be imported into your living music tracks like so much data. Blazing hot machine chops and nifty cool beat patterns written and programmed with the intentions of selling drum machines are not what makes your song great. Real drums that are played by a musician and support the music in your song is what's needed. If you produce your own music in your own home studio, go check out my website.

Hello Everybody, My name name is Phil Dalmolin from San Antonio Texas, I've been playing drums for over 30 years and with some of the top names in country music.

Real drums that are played by a musician and support the music in your song is what's needed. If you produce your own music in your own home studio, go check out my website. RealStudioDrums.comHappy recording!

Hello Phil,Ok, your service has been added. Thanks for dropping in and posting a "straight forward" message about your service. Maybe on your next post you can give us a quick intro about your price range (or packages, etc.) and what your normal procedure and turn-around time is.

Please keep in mind that though you've been added to our list, it is only a temporary "work sheet" to gather a variety of considered listings. Later we'll have a team of JPF folks (founder, researchers & volunteers) decide on the most appropriate and reputable services to work with. Meanwhile, thanks again for your interest and participation on these boards and perhaps with the nearest JPF chapter in your area.

Michael

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself. -- Johann Sebastian Bach

Hey Michael,In regard to the $$$$ standard, it's my understanding that the Sydney Symphony Orchestra is available for hire, basic cost $10,000 per day plus extras.

Do you think we should list them? I'm sure we could have a whip around for the next big project that comes up.cheers, niteshift

Yo Geoff!$10,000 per day is one thing, but the real quesiton is, "how many days will a typical recording take"?

So, are you serious about adding the "SSO" to our list?Is this resource for "plain folks" or more for the "rich & famous"?

I'm starting to wonder how L O N G this list could get if we try to include every major city and town band and symphony orchestra that wants to offer their recording services. It could be done, but might require a special format which should probably be managed from an online database. (IMHO)

Nothing added yet, just thinking about our options. Michael

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself. -- Johann Sebastian Bach

No, just kidding you on the listing front mate. That's the real deal from what I understand. Man, you can see why those film dudes rack up masive bills in their production. And of course, that's not including the sound stage, and.......catering.

Just wanted to provide a comparable example of what things actually cost. I would stick to the reasonable, and the expected, but it's not so bad to have an idea on the high side of town also, it just helps to put it all in perspective.

Hello everyone!The last week has involved lots of excitement with the new JPF / OurStage community partnership. After things settle down a bit, maybe we can continue here with adding some more services & tools resources. So far we've got about 150 listed, so it will get harder to make new suggestions that are both good (reputable) and are not already listed.

Here's some categories that could use some help with new listing suggestions:

CD/DVD ManufacturesWe have 4 listed. Any others?

Digital DistributionWe have 4 listed; does that cover it?

Entertainment AttorneysNot even one suggestion yet, so I'll suggest this one:Don Passman - http://www.donpassman.comI've read his book and I know he has his own law practice, but right now I can't find his main home-page for that. Please post if you find it or others you might recommend.

Independent A&RWe only have two listed. Any other suggestions?

Internet Radio/Streaming BroadcastWe've got only 3 listed; any more?

Let's try to focus on these for a while since they have the least listings (so far) compared to all other categories.

Thanks!Michael

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself. -- Johann Sebastian Bach

Under Entertainment Attorneys: Several years ago...I offered up a blurb about the Dickinson School of Law.....now called...Penn State The Dickinson School of Law...They still offer FREE Entertainment Law Counseling.here is the link...if you and Brian feel it's a worthy addition.sincerely,kkhttp://www.dsl.psu.edu/clinic/artsports.cfm

Thanks Kaley, been added!At the very least, it might give artists some "clues" about what they need (or don't need), and then if more work is involved which the school doesn't cover, I'm sure they'll get some useful referrals.

Because it's free, I'm thinking their practice may be limited due to time and budget constraints, and most attorneys who volunteer their time like this probably hope to "earn" some referrals for larger, more involved projects. All around, nice resource!

Michael

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself. -- Johann Sebastian Bach

Hi Kaley!Yes, I'm aware of this one and I think it's a good one!They've been around since 1895, that's over 112 years!

I think this would be a great resource for at least several reasons:1. For songwriters what want to check out various publishers in the process of trying to place or "shop" their music.2. For musicians (vocalists or instrumentalists) that need publisher's contact info for licensing and usage clearance, etc.3. For indie publishers that may consider joining the MPA and getting their publishing company listed their, not to mention the various specialized resources the MPA may offer it's member publishers.

It should probably go under Music Organizations, since it's an "association" and might also have a non-profit status.

Thanks!Michael

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself. -- Johann Sebastian Bach