Boojum2k:100 Watt Walrus: But how about some suggestions from the gun owners instead of just shooting down (pardon!) everyone else's ideas?

Start basic firearm safety in elementary school. My parents had basic safety so ingrained in me that I don't even point toy guns directly at people, unless it is clearly a water pistol or nerf gun, and then only by specific intent. That doesn't mean hand the kids real guns, it means educate the children. Replace irrational fear with responsible caution, it'll eliminate a good number of accidental shootings. It's a fundamental right, our education system is failing to teach new generations how to exercise their rights responsibly, in more areas than just this one.

That would be awesome, but if jackasses get up an arms over sex-ed and even vaccinations for little Neveah and Brayden, gun class certainly won't fly. Basic firearm safety ought to be like learning to swim, it won't hurt you to learn-- and in fact could actually save your life.

Bonzo_1116:That would be awesome, but if jackasses get up an arms over sex-ed and even vaccinations for little Neveah and Brayden, gun class certainly won't fly.

Congressional act or court decision if needed, but parental feelings don't override basic constitutional rights. They also don't get to stop schools from teaching girls and/or minorities they have the right to vote, for instance. Any judge or ruled in favor of a complaint like that should be removed from the bench, preferably using a rail, some warm petrochemicals, and a bag of feathers along with the official impeachment and disbarring.

Boojum2k:Bonzo_1116: That would be awesome, but if jackasses get up an arms over sex-ed and even vaccinations for little Neveah and Brayden, gun class certainly won't fly.

Congressional act or court decision if needed, but parental feelings don't override basic constitutional rights. They also don't get to stop schools from teaching girls and/or minorities they have the right to vote, for instance. Any judge or ruled in favor of a complaint like that should be removed from the bench, preferably using a rail, some warm petrochemicals, and a bag of feathers along with the official impeachment and disbarring.

Judges can't compel a school to include something in its curricula, nor could training like that be mandated without some kind of out for objections of religion or conscience. Quakers and Jains would have an absolute shiat-fit, and rightly so. I think it would be good if maybe the county sheriff's office hosted classes for any interested citizen and their kids.

Bonzo_1116:Judges can't compel a school to include something in its curricula, nor could training like that be mandated without some kind of out for objections of religion or conscience. Quakers and Jains would have an absolute shiat-fit, and rightly so.

Wrongly so. No one would be teaching their kids to commit violence, they'd be teaching them the important safety considerations for a fundamental right. I don't think Southern Baptists can successfully argue that teaching their daughters that they have a right to vote violates their religion, now, can they? Same here. I suppose they could try not teaching it in private schools, but there'd probably be a clear case of violating the student's constitutional rights there.

Congress could certainly require it in the curricula, the courts would just be needed to shoot down the screaming mimis. The only difficult issue with it is that it's a long term solution that can work and doesn't advance a specific short-term political agenda.

Boojum2k:Bonzo_1116: Judges can't compel a school to include something in its curricula, nor could training like that be mandated without some kind of out for objections of religion or conscience. Quakers and Jains would have an absolute shiat-fit, and rightly so.

Wrongly so. No one would be teaching their kids to commit violence, they'd be teaching them the important safety considerations for a fundamental right. I don't think Southern Baptists can successfully argue that teaching their daughters that they have a right to vote violates their religion, now, can they? Same here. I suppose they could try not teaching it in private schools, but there'd probably be a clear case of violating the student's constitutional rights there.

Congress could certainly require it in the curricula, the courts would just be needed to shoot down the screaming mimis. The only difficult issue with it is that it's a long term solution that can work and doesn't advance a specific short-term political agenda.

Nope. DC only gets their preferences into local curricula by making receiving federal money contingent on them using a fed-compliant curriculum. There is no national law that requires kids attend school and learn the things Sentor X thinks they should.

People have zero "right" to be positively informed of bupkis, even if that information would be critical to the exercise of a constitutional right. The county registrar of voters doesn't have the right to force all citizens to sit through a 30 minute presentation on the voting process. They need to tell you truthful information when you come looking for it, but they are under no obligation to come find you and strap you to a chair and lecture you on it.

Those words get used to justify almost every restriction on rights. Terrorists in the world? Something has to be done, let's spy on our citizens! Let's grope and feel random passengers on airlines! Pervs stalk and abuse children, which is already a crime? Something has to be done, let's give teenagers a few years apart in age sex offender status for life! An inconsequential fringe group gets mouthy? Something has to be done!

Point taken. But how about some suggestions from the gun owners instead of just shooting down (pardon!) everyone else's ideas?

Callous:You said they are only good for killing humans. You also said you taught her how to use one. How many humans did the two of you kill? Or are they actually good for something other than killing humans?

You're making a very bad argument.

Yes, the reason he wants her to know how to use one is so that if the need arises, she will be able to use it to kill humans.

That doesn't mean that while learning basic shooting skills, they are shooting everyone they see.

Nina_Hartley's_Ass:100 Watt Walrus: Boojum2k: 100 Watt Walrus: But something has to be done

Those words get used to justify almost every restriction on rights. Terrorists in the world? Something has to be done, let's spy on our citizens! Let's grope and feel random passengers on airlines! Pervs stalk and abuse children, which is already a crime? Something has to be done, let's give teenagers a few years apart in age sex offender status for life! An inconsequential fringe group gets mouthy? Something has to be done!

Point taken. But how about some suggestions from the gun owners instead of just shooting down (pardon!) everyone else's ideas?

Bonzo_1116:I think the background check to filter out violent felons / wife beaters / people so crazy they've been legal judged incompetent is just dandy, and I wish there was a good way for the system that dealers use was available to the general public, so I could do a person-to-person transaction without going to the local gun store to do the sale. I also think that open carry is a whole lot less problematic than concealed carry, as it's obvious that you've got a gun so people are watching to see if you pull any stupid shiat. And the sort of folk you might pull stupid shiat on you are forewarned and hopefully decide not to bother. It's a deterrent.

With concealed carry, you don't know if the guy next to you might be packing and so it's not really a deterrent. And frankly, if folks are going to be walking around with concealed weaponry, I'd much prefer that people who do so are at least not nutbags, so I'd say that the minimum requirement for concealed carry ought to be the same background check you'd have to pass if you were buying a weapon in the first place. So a person that owns a gun that they didn't buy (inherited from a relative, say) they'd just get the background check and good to go to conceal carry.

I'm with you on open-carry, up to a point. How about some laws about how, what and where one carries?

A hand gun might be a good "daily driver." But it should be holstered and strapped, with the safety on - by law.

And how about reasonable restrictions for anything with more firepower? The laws would have to be written carefully, because were there ever actually a legitimate need for a well-regulated militia, such restrictions must not be used to deny 2nd Amendment rights. But for example, there's no legitimate reason to walk into a Jack-In-the-Box armed to the teeth. I'm not going to propose specific legislation here, but obviously the general, polite-society dictate of "don't be an asshole" isn't getting the job done with some gun owners.

Boojum2k:Start basic firearm safety in elementary school. My parents had basic safety so ingrained in me that I don't even point toy guns directly at people, unless it is clearly a water pistol or nerf gun, and then only by specific intent. That doesn't mean hand the kids real guns, it means educate the children. Replace irrational fear with responsible caution, it'll eliminate a good number of accidental shootings. It's a fundamental right, our education system is failing to teach new generations how to exercise their rights responsibly, in more areas than just this one.

Ingraining guns more deeply into the culture is not the way to go. It's a right to own firearms. It's not remotely a necessity, and I don't see much value in making people learn about them if they don't want to. I've been to a firing range several times, fired handguns, rifles, shotguns and an Uzi. I get why people enjoy guns, and I get why people think it's important for them to know and understand guns, their history, one's rights regarding guns, and the responsibility that comes with them. But I have zero interest in owning one, and I have zero interest in any children I may have learning about guns unless guns interest them especially.

Now, if you'd like to talk about basic firearm safety courses being something required of anyone who buys a gun, I'm with you 100%. In fact, how about that be a mandatory before you're handed the weapon?

Those words get used to justify almost every restriction on rights. Terrorists in the world? Something has to be done, let's spy on our citizens! Let's grope and feel random passengers on airlines! Pervs stalk and abuse children, which is already a crime? Something has to be done, let's give teenagers a few years apart in age sex offender status for life! An inconsequential fringe group gets mouthy? Something has to be done!

Point taken. But how about some suggestions from the gun owners instead of just shooting down (pardon!) everyone else's ideas?