This blog is intended to discuss on the needs for Muslims in Malaysia to analyze on what they had been taught for these many years – that it is in accordance with Islam to establish an Islamic State.
Let me show to you that this is a fallacy, a distortion of facts and evidence. In other words - lies.

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Wednesday, May 14, 2008

I have been busying myself in Malaysia Today lately. Politics interests me a lot but at present I am more inclined to be quiet on this topic. There is a lot of deals going on at the backstage at this moment so I am not going to spoil the fun.

However, the popular topic of religion, Islamic state vs Secular state interest me deeply. I have been engaging one regular commentator in MT who goes by the nick cabearth.

'What Malik Imtiaz and Haris Ibrahim is doing is to try to impose limitation normally imposed by secularism on all religion.'

Now how many of Muslims out there heard this from Ustadzs before?

Often. And in some cases, always.

These Islamists reasoning is simple. According to them, Secularism impose limitation on religion, or ad-deen which is defined as way of life, thus Secularism is, in cabearth's word, "100% contradictory to Islam." Their conclusion is this, Muslims need an "Islamic State" to 'properly' adhere to the tenets of religion.

Does it?

So I pick up the challenge and argue with him, in which till this article is written, no rebuttal came from him yet. If he did in different website, please do highlight it to me.

My argument;

1. Islam is made up out of so many sects (Mazhabs) and school of thoughts. We have Sunni, Syiah and Wahabi. And under them we have many Mazhabs, such as Syafie, Maliki, Hanafi for the Sunnis, Jafariyah, Imamiyah for Syiah. And under one Mazhabs, we have different school of thoughts.

2. Let's take Malaysia as an example. The proposed 'Islamic State' by the local Islamists is based on Syafie rulings.

3. Among the criteria of this effort is this, the Syariah Law which is going to be enforced would be based on Syafi'e rulings (Mazhab Syafi'e)

4. When this happen, it means that Syafi'e ruling would be enforced upon all Muslims regardless of their Mazhab.

5. Islam is not equal to Mazhab Syafi'e. Those who follows other Mazhabs are also Muslims.

6. When the Syafi'e rulings are enforce upon the followers of different Mazhabs, it means that the proposed 'Islamic State', which is actually a 'Syafi'e State', is in actual fact pose limitation on Islam.

Case study : The Ruling of marriage.

In Syafie's ruling, a single Muslim lady must have the permission of her father before she can enter into any marriage. The father as a 'wali' have a final say. In some school of thought in Mazhab Syafi'e, the father can even marry the daughter to anyone he pleases without the permission or knowledge of the daughter and the marriage is legally recognized and binding on the lady.

In Hanafi ruling, it is completely different. A single Muslim lady is recognized as independent and can make decision on her own completely. She can choose to marry whomsoever she pleases and she does not need to get permission from anyone. The father does not have any legal right to prevent the marriage. Even if her father protest, she could go on with the marriage without any hassle.

The Malaysian Syariah Law on marriage is based on Syafi'e ruling. The bride would need to get permission from her father to enter into marriage.

The question now is this, what if there is a Muslim lady from the Hanafi sect, who wants to get married to a man whom she chooses but unfortunately her father does not agree to her choice?

In her own Mazhab, she could carry on with the marriage without any hassle. The state will automatically marry her with the man of her choice. And the marriage would be legally recognized.

But in Malaysia, she would be forced to accept Syafi'e ruling. She would have to obtained permission from her father. All of this is against the decree of the Hanafi's.

Enforcing the ruling of one particular Mazhab on to the followers of different Mazhabs clearly imply one thing, an 'Islamic State' pose a clear 'limitation on Islam' by discriminating other sects.

Syafi'e is not equal to Islam.

Secularism 101 for dummies

The main contention among the fundamentalists is this; secularism limits religions and thus it is anti-religion.

This is as good as saying that Islam is equal to Mazhab Syafi'e.

The truth is there is no one single secular concept for all. Secularism itself varies in principles and practices and this is manifested in the different nations throughout the world.

Take secularism in France and Sweden for example. We have a clear example what constitute a hard secularism like in France or a soft secularism in Sweden.

I still remember few years ago, there were some hue and cry from the Islamists over the ruling that no French public schoolchildren should be allowed to wear anything that symbolizes religion such as hijab for Muslims, crosses for Christians and etc.

This incident is used by Islamists as evidence that secularism limits religion.

They got it all wrong.

In 2004, a court in Sweden sentenced an Iranian man to pay Mahr (Islamic dowry) to his Iranian wife in a divorce case. The man accused his wife of infidelity . In the decision, the court decided that since both the plaintiff and defendant are Iranians, the court will then adopt the Iranian law (in this case Syiah's Sharia Law) in its ruling.

Sweden is a secular state. It disestablished its state religion way back in 2000. But it is well known that Sweden is adopting a soft secularism approach. And the court case is an example of Sweden trying its best to promote multiculturalism and tried to accommodate the rulings from different traditions.

We should ask whether Malaysian Syariah Court or rather Malaysian Syafi'e Court would be as accommodating to the Syiah's as the Swedish court.

The Malaysian Syafi'e Court only cater the needs of Muslims from Syafi'e sect. It discriminates other sects by enforcing rules from Syafi'e on Muslims from other sects. With this in mind, how does a secular state limits religion more than an Islamic State?

Conclusion

1. Secularism limits religion is a sweeping statement. There are many types of secularism.

2. Any Islamic state, Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia (and maybe Malaysia in future) limits Islam itself by enforcing ruling from certain Mazhabs only on all Muslims regardless of their mazhabs affiliation.3. The claim that Syariah Law is to cater the needs of Muslims is therefore FALSE. The existing Syariah Law, or more appropriately should be call Syafi'e Law, will only cater the needs of Muslims from the Syafi'e sect while discriminating other Muslims from different Mazhabs.4. In comparison between Sweden and the present Malaysia, the secular Sweden is more accommodating to Muslims compared to Malaysia.

5. Since secular Sweden is more accommodating to Muslims from different mazhabs compare to Malaysia, which is more Islamic in nature? Malaysia or Sweden?

28 comments:

For one who is learning about Islam, this is most fascinating and educational.

I have observed that those who argue for the commonly practiced norms of Islam often use arguments that are built on weak foundations. Those arguments are good for reinforcing the convictions of those who already believe but usually fail to convince anyone who thinks otherwise.

I believe the Qur'an, properly translated, can stand on it's own and needs no supporting argument. Laws and customs that are Quranic in nature will be readily accepted because they will naturally appeal to a sensible mind.

"syafi'e court is forced down the throat of every Muslims regardless of their mazhabs."I was under the impression that as far as the JAKIMs are concerned syafi'e mahzab = Islam, & that all other traditions are "ajaran sesat".

'..As such the issue of jurisdiction over other mahzabs do not arise..'

Not the issue of jurisdiction. But the issue of respecting minority rights to practice what they believe.

If they can't give an equal rights to the minority mazhabs which are part of the Sunni community, what more to say those who are non Muslims or those who are deemed as heretic such as the Syiah?

The exertion of supremacy over minority is nothing new in Islamic world. For example, during the Caliphates dynasties non Muslims cannot build taller houses than Muslims, they cannot hold significant position in the government, joining army is out of question and etc.

These steps, in Al-Ghazali words, is necessary to show Islamic supremacy over non believers.

I will show you the reference later on, since the book is at my home town.

So the question is, now what? Supremacy of Syafi'e over other mazhabs? So where does it put the non Muslims? Maybe at the lowest rank or maybe equivalent to slaves.

We will have an undeclared caste system if we were to run this country theoretically.

With this in mind, I retaliate my support for a full fledge secular state in Malaysia.

Good rational argument. You can add to that, if the western world had not had Secularism as the basis of their state, Islam would not be practiced so openly in those countries. Would those wanting Malaysia to be an Islamic state want these western coutnries to go back to being Christian states that probably will refuse to allow Islam to prevail as it is today? I am sure the Islamists are thankful for the secular nature of their adoptive countries that has allowed them more freedom that even the Koran has ever envisaged for them. Indeed in the west they can be Muslims because that is what they believe in and want to be. Whereas in Malaysia, they really got no choice but have to be. Doesn't mean they want to be.

We have a composition of approximately 60% Muslims and 40% non Muslims.

Please do remember that if only 1/3 of Muslims agree that Malaysia should be a secular state, then Malaysia would only be a full fledged secular state.

Comments from non Muslims regarding secularism are usually not appreciated or not taken seriously even how sensible it is. No thanks to the local Mullahs.

With this in mind, as a Muslim who believe in the Quran and Sunnah, I am obligated to show openly my support for a secular state.

It is not easy to undo what the Mullahs had done for the past 30 years or so. And Malays and the rest of Malaysians don't usually read long articles except those who are very critical so I intend to write in shorter and simpler terms.

You hit the nail right on the head Alhadee, too many times have I heard from Muslims (even well educated ones) that divine laws cannot be contraindicated or tampered with. But who makes such laws?? Men! Jurists are also fallible human beings and they interpret the laws from holy scriptures in the light of their times and through the Arab cultural lens.

In the past Islam allowed slavery and men to have sex with slaves and concubines but such a practise would be totally abhorrent today so apparently God's laws can change. IIRC according to Imam Shafie female circumcision is wajib but Muslims today would be hard pressed to justify such a practice as being healthy for girls. So laws are there but they are not divine eternal unchanging statutes.

Hei Pervert..this is for you to constipate on.Put it up if you have balls!!

We start the day with a snippet from AP, something not found in Malaysiakini and certainly not in the People's Parliament!

By SELCAN HACAOGLU, Associated Press Writer Tue Jul 15, 2:08 PM ETANKARA, Turkey - Turkey's Islamic-rooted government was elected last year with a huge majority, continues to bask in popular support — and will probably fall within a month.

Well and good.. ah what a triumph for good old democracy u might say.. but whoa there when you get to this part of the same article. Impartiality of the judiciary certainly alive and kicking here unlike in Bolehland :

The strange state of affairs is not due to any internal revolt or opposition threat, but to a case before Turkey's Constitutional Court that seeks to ban the Justice and Development Party on charges of undermining secularism.With the court stacked with members of the secular elite, many Turks expect to see their democratically elected government booted out.The consequences could be grave for Turkey's bid to join the European Union and for stability in this NATO member of 70 million people that strategically straddles Europe and the Middle East.Foreign investors could be unsettled, and political gridlock would halt crucial reforms. Perhaps most importantly, such a radical step would trigger questions in an already leery EU about whether Turkey is the mature democracy it portrays itself to be.

and all the hoo -ha is over this... rings a bell somewhere PAS?:The indictment cites the government's effort to lift a ban on Islamic head scarves in universities and other measures meant to expand the rights of devout Muslims in the educational system, as well as attempts to shut down pig farms and restrict alcohol advertising on TV.Now, this is the interesting part or rather fart:But some observers, including EU leaders weighing Turkey's membership bid, are beginning to consider the AKP as better for democracy than the secularists, whose intolerance of religious symbolism is seen as running counter to liberal values. In turning the principles of Ataturk into a rigid orthodoxy, the secularists have shown a strong authoritarian streak that sits ill with the nation's ambitions to join the European bloc. And their nationalism has led them to bridle at most EU demands for reform. By contrast, the government has been credited with maintaining the political and financial stability seen as critical to bringing about reforms needed to revive the nation's EU bid, including curbing the military's say in politics and expanding free speech.and poor common man, what chance do thou have except to bleat :"AKP represents a pathway to freedom for the people," said Osman Yuksel, a 41-year-old shop owner. "Closing the AKP would be wrong and will not solve any problems. I do not think AKP is a threat to secularism. That idea is just a fixation of the military."for in the end when push comes to shove, dem liberals certainly will not have any qualms of defending the status quo. Majority and popularity be damned! (shades of 79 trying to wrest power from 140, dont you think? .......back out there somewhere in the global boondocks):Still, any attempt to relax the state's uncompromisingly secular stance in this 99 percent Muslim country has long been met with strident protests from the urban elite as well as the army — which has staged three coups amid civil strife or political turmoil since the 1960s.to get the unexpurgated version, click this link http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080715/ap_on_re_mi_ea/turkey_political_crisis;_ylt=AvIvULRPGU3f5IeBYOhbqlWs0NUEwell, this is not the first time, it has happened .. remember how Necmetian Erbakan was manouvred out a few years back and his Refah was the precursor to the Justice and Development Party:A faction of moderate conservative members within the now-banned Welfare Party, known as Yenilikçiler, or in English, the Reformist faction, formed the Justice and Development Party on August 14 2001.,(source :Wikipedia) and jumping jeepers.. i bet even the sodomy prosecutors cant beat this one:The prosecution supports this ban with "evidence" it has lifted from Google. (source : Wikipedia under Justice and Development Party)And when you have the same ol story in democracies elsewhere.. remember FIS and Abbas Madani in Algeria in the 80s and 90s, the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt in the 1950s and the demonising of Obama in the US of A ....... Jangan Tak Pandang Belakang..ya ..do you hear me PAS?whither the theology of liberal - secualrism and its poodle,Democracy?..... i wonder my dear buffalo.

and for good measure, this is what your farmhand (u know who) sodomised from his website before banning me.... liberal konon! my shit!:

To the fiendish mendicant alhadee

Act 1 scene 2

Stage directions : Enter Revert holding a staff and a roll of toilet paper on which are scribbled two questions. He stops at where Alhadee is meditating in a bathrobe and begins …..

(imploring) verily thine intellectual fart is awesome!! Ah surely…. as the repository of wisdom, thou art able to answer my puny questions. After all, who am I but a mere shadow beneath your glorious Sun. Thou who knoweth all, even the intricacies of the Sunnah and Shia. O master, indeed the knowledge of the seven seas resideth within your keyboard nay.. your revered fingertips. Art thou so callous not to fulfil my whimsy? Perchance i am too tiny nay ....miniscule.. to beget your attention. Oh woe upon me....where doeth i seek the answer to my little imbroglio if verily wise Alhadee rejecth my queries... woe upon me… for verily only he is blest with knowledge of the anthill.

Alhadee (straining): Ummmmmmmm ..uh

Stage Directions : Getting no response, Revert shakes the staff, a skull atop the staff rattles as he speaks …..

(in anger) O pedant Alhadee, thou art the brain of the scum. Thou are the flea of fleas, the mangy dog skulking the alley of decadence. Verily, thou art the king of duplicity and the prince of sophistry. Thou art the father of evasion and the fiend of deception. And whence thou wander the streets of knowledge, thought and reason flee in haste .Looketh thou, how justice and humility cringe in fear and how bile and vitriol cavort in delight to embrace thyself?. A pox…. nay a double pox on you…..alhadee for verily, thou art the phantom of menace and the thief of wisdom!!.

Stage Directions: Exit Revert (teeth gnashing) while Alhadee disrobes and reveals to the audience that he had been meditating on a mound of s _ _ _! (fill in the blanks, Alhadee)

Hei Pervert, read this (together with my commentary),constipate upon it and publish it if you got the balls that is?:

We start the day with a snippet from AP, something not found in Malaysiakini and certainly not in the People's Parliament!

By SELCAN HACAOGLU, Associated Press Writer Tue Jul 15, 2:08 PM ETANKARA, Turkey - Turkey's Islamic-rooted government was elected last year with a huge majority, continues to bask in popular support — and will probably fall within a month.

Well and good.. ah what a triumph for good old democracy u might say.. but whoa there when you get to this part of the same article. Impartiality of the judiciary certainly alive and kicking here unlike in Bolehland :

The strange state of affairs is not due to any internal revolt or opposition threat, but to a case before Turkey's Constitutional Court that seeks to ban the Justice and Development Party on charges of undermining secularism.With the court stacked with members of the secular elite, many Turks expect to see their democratically elected government booted out.The consequences could be grave for Turkey's bid to join the European Union and for stability in this NATO member of 70 million people that strategically straddles Europe and the Middle East.Foreign investors could be unsettled, and political gridlock would halt crucial reforms. Perhaps most importantly, such a radical step would trigger questions in an already leery EU about whether Turkey is the mature democracy it portrays itself to be.

and all the hoo -ha is over this... rings a bell somewhere PAS?:The indictment cites the government's effort to lift a ban on Islamic head scarves in universities and other measures meant to expand the rights of devout Muslims in the educational system, as well as attempts to shut down pig farms and restrict alcohol advertising on TV.Now, this is the interesting part or rather fart:But some observers, including EU leaders weighing Turkey's membership bid, are beginning to consider the AKP as better for democracy than the secularists, whose intolerance of religious symbolism is seen as running counter to liberal values. In turning the principles of Ataturk into a rigid orthodoxy, the secularists have shown a strong authoritarian streak that sits ill with the nation's ambitions to join the European bloc. And their nationalism has led them to bridle at most EU demands for reform. By contrast, the government has been credited with maintaining the political and financial stability seen as critical to bringing about reforms needed to revive the nation's EU bid, including curbing the military's say in politics and expanding free speech.and poor common man, what chance do thou have except to bleat :"AKP represents a pathway to freedom for the people," said Osman Yuksel, a 41-year-old shop owner. "Closing the AKP would be wrong and will not solve any problems. I do not think AKP is a threat to secularism. That idea is just a fixation of the military."for in the end when push comes to shove, dem liberals certainly will not have any qualms of defending the status quo. Majority and popularity be damned! (shades of 79 trying to wrest power from 140, dont you think? .......back out there somewhere in the global boondocks):Still, any attempt to relax the state's uncompromisingly secular stance in this 99 percent Muslim country has long been met with strident protests from the urban elite as well as the army — which has staged three coups amid civil strife or political turmoil since the 1960s.to get the unexpurgated version, click this link http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080715/ap_on_re_mi_ea/turkey_political_crisis;_ylt=AvIvULRPGU3f5IeBYOhbqlWs0NUEwell, this is not the first time, it has happened .. remember how Necmetian Erbakan was manouvred out a few years back and his Refah was the precursor to the Justice and Development Party:A faction of moderate conservative members within the now-banned Welfare Party, known as Yenilikçiler, or in English, the Reformist faction, formed the Justice and Development Party on August 14 2001.,(source :Wikipedia) and jumping jeepers.. i bet even the sodomy prosecutors cant beat this one:The prosecution supports this ban with "evidence" it has lifted from Google. (source : Wikipedia under Justice and Development Party)And when you have the same ol story in democracies elsewhere.. remember FIS and Abbas Madani in Algeria in the 80s and 90s, the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt in the 1950s and the demonising of Obama in the US of A ....... Jangan Tak Pandang Belakang..ya ..do you hear me PAS?whither the theology of liberal - secualrism and its poodle,Democracy?..... i wonder my dear buffalo.

and this which was sodomised from his blog by your farmhand bedfellow (u know who) before he banned me. liberal and free konon! my shit:

To the fiendish mendicant alhadee

Act 1 scene 2

Stage directions : Enter Revert holding a staff and a roll of toilet paper on which are scribbled two questions. He stops at where Alhadee is meditating in a bathrobe and begins …..

(imploring) verily thine intellectual fart is awesome!! Ah surely…. as the repository of wisdom, thou art able to answer my puny questions. After all, who am I but a mere shadow beneath your glorious Sun. Thou who knoweth all, even the intricacies of the Sunnah and Shia. O master, indeed the knowledge of the seven seas resideth within your keyboard nay.. your revered fingertips. Art thou so callous not to fulfil my whimsy? Perchance i am too tiny nay ....miniscule.. to beget your attention. Oh woe upon me....where doeth i seek the answer to my little imbroglio if verily wise Alhadee rejecth my queries... woe upon me… for verily only he is blest with knowledge of the anthill.

Alhadee (straining): Ummmmmmmm ..uh

Stage Directions : Getting no response, Revert shakes the staff, a skull atop the staff rattles as he speaks …..

(in anger) O pedant Alhadee, thou art the brain of the scum. Thou are the flea of fleas, the mangy dog skulking the alley of decadence. Verily, thou art the king of duplicity and the prince of sophistry. Thou art the father of evasion and the fiend of deception. And whence thou wander the streets of knowledge, thought and reason flee in haste .Looketh thou, how justice and humility cringe in fear and how bile and vitriol cavort in delight to embrace thyself?. A pox…. nay a double pox on you…..alhadee for verily, thou art the phantom of menace and the thief of wisdom!!.

Stage Directions: Exit Revert (teeth gnashing) while Alhadee disrobes and reveals to the audience that he had been meditating on a mound of s _ _ _! (fill in the blanks Alhadee)

Hey, alhadee (no, thank you I won't give you a salam). I just want to request a thing. What about you show us the success(es) of Secular States in promoting perfectly Islamic values. So I would consider to join you for MMFSS! For now, MMFSS to me is Malaysian Muslims for Sodomized State. Thehehe.

From my personal experience, I never discovered love in Islam in all my years living in a Muslim country. Because practise of faith was automated, enforced, blind without question.

Not until I started life in a free, secular and democratic country that I started questioning my faith and reasoning certain concepts and rituals, when Islam started resting in my heart. I can now see love and compassion in Islam, totally internalised.

See, we can't do this in Malaysia for fear of being rejected, ridiculed and branded. Shame.