Here it is compared with Puretrak Talent.
The stitched edges are only on the sample I got, the final one won't have that (I could do a very subtle stitch if people think it would be a benefit though).http://i.imgur.com/4mVASB3.jpg

Could you PLEASE consider making the mousepad 50x50 instead of 50x40? I rest the whole arm on the pad with the elbow on one corner, and there isn't a single mousepad with a shape that i find comfortable, i'm currently using a setup with two close qcks to fix this.

Other than that, are side buttons still only on the left side? That's a big "fuck you" to left handed gamers, and considering that the shell is already symmetric, and side buttons on both sides are pretty much a standard for many brands, i don't see the reason for this.

Other that that, great job, i wish you all the luck possible and i swear one of these days i'm gonna register to this site, sorry for anonymous.

Seems good, everything seems just perfect about this mouse, the only thing i worry about is the teflon mouse feet, i mean the mouse is small, it's 68g, it's gonna slide super fast with teflon mouse feet, so this might be very hard to actually control that, maybe it's just personal, did you try the mouse in a game like cs ?

How about Linux and Mac? Can we get atleast a command line interface or something? Assuming the mouse is otherwise compatible and only the settings software thingy is Windows only. Maybe clarify that in the OP.
Also wanted to say that it seems you've done great job with this mouse and I can't wait for the release...
Btw will you sell spare mouse feet (for replacement when they get worn out)? Maybe an option to include some with the mouse when shipping?
Oh and how does the wheel button compare to WMO? Does it have more tactile feel?

Heres some pics of another WMO mod I made, I made it really fast so its not perfect, but in the video you can see its not that hard to do. I just have to edit the vid together and I'll upload it. But the mouse is working fine, all buttons, scroll wheel and sensor. If I was going to actually use it as my main mouse I would have tried a lot harder and been a perfectionist, but I wanted to show you can get good results without having to try too hard.http://i.imgur.com/4MWgCyG.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/ESWGunN.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/WUFCZYh.jpg

From what I remember the mouse has unstable Hz and malfunction speed because of the LEDs. The performance is better with the LEDs turned off.

You can get a better score with Enotus if you only swipe a few times. When you swipe a lot the malfunction speed will be lower on the test. It is closely tied to the Hz displayed on the program. At least from what I recall.

how does the sensor fair on colored surfaces, as i see you have opted with the 3090, which happens to be the same as the G400s im using atm, and this mouse doesn't fair well on my puretrak talent white (skips alot).
i was hoping to get myself an artisan shinden/shindenkai which is that hybrid of hard top cloth pad, and also happens to be white (or orange if i get the kai), so im wondering if there will be tracking issues as this mouse uses the same sensor... or is the skipping caused by some other factor?

I haven't tested it on a white pad, but from using it on white paper it seems to lower the LOD a lot, but I'll get a white pad to test. It really seems like if the G400s has problems then this will too though.

Hi bst, I'm currently a pro-gamer playing CS:GO and I like your development so far. I have a few questions though:

- When will the shop be opened for the public to purchase an order?
- Coming from IME 3.0, will the aurora fit, or be even better in that aspect? (other than sensor)
- Will you release something a similar mice to the IME 3.0, or maybe the PCB inside, so that people could use it on the above-mentioned mice?

Yes I do, but that is entirely a different topic and I'd rather not shed any details here.

I'm asking merely because the development (to me) has been quite interesting and I've tried other mice such as ec1 evo, deathadder and nothing comes close -- other than the sensor. (subjective, of course)

They are only based in the UK (about 15 minutes drive from me), so all the mice have to be sent from there (it doesn't mean returns have to go back there though). Its a flat rate of 6 GBP / 7 EUR / 9 USD (that means for any amount of items, the price will be the same).

The service is Royal Mail signed for:
In the UK: "Aims to deliver next working day including Saturdays".
EU: "Aims to deliver in 5 days"

International (including USA): "Aims to deliver in 5 days"
Because Ninox Ltd. isn't registered for UK sales tax (it doesn't need to be until it reaches about 70,000 turnover), it means that people in other countries would have to pay their tax when the mouse enters their country. Because of this, I will discount international sales back to excluding tax prices. Which makes the price of the mouse $39.99. If you're lucky you won't have to pay any tax, and will get it for the cheap price, but I just don't want the unlucky ones to be out of pocket.

I tested this service with the beta testers - it worked fine and as advertised. The only issue was that delivery took some time for Eastern European countries, iirc h8m3 (in Russia) took about 2-3 weeks to get his mouse. But in these cases I don't think using a courier like UPS/Fedex etc will make much difference, its just the way it is (actually we tested it and it didn't, but h8m3 might be able to remind me). Also most couriers won't even deliver to Russia :(

The other fulfillment centre has more of an international network:http://www.tollgroup.com/
But in all honesty I'm not sure about it, since the prices and times for delivery aren't exactly terrible by sending from the UK. I have to consider the headaches it would cause to have stock in multiple locations (its probably better for in the future...). I'm just waiting for an email from them today. These are about 45 minutes drive from me.

I didn't want to use amazon in the end. Their postage service is the same, and I wanted a company which is near who I can talk to any time and visit them easily if needed, and they are simply more flexible.

I think the prices will stay as I just wrote, but I just wanted to explain the final process I'm going through at the moment and how it works. Hope it helps and isn't too confusing!

I didn't want to use amazon in the end. Their postage service is the same, and I wanted a company which is near who I can talk to any time and visit them easily if needed, and they are simply more flexible.

Isn't that losing a ton of potential sales based on a non-economical factor?

Well, delivery to Russia isn't any of those services fault, it's pure retardness of russian customs and national post operator aka Russian Post which is the local operator for Royal Mail. Some services like parcelforce use local national EMS service which is usually faster than Russian Post, but overall can be delayed at customs too. Other couriers like Fedex/DHL/UPS got their own local service and own customs queues which usually makes them the fastest and the most stable but at the same time the most expensive way.
Luckily it's getting better lately than it was in 1st half of the year.
Was at least 1 month for all Russian Post items due to customs jam, EMS was suffering nearly like that aswell, the only way to receive anything fast was fedex/dhl/ups. Btw I received your mouse via fedex in 5 days so it helped ;p
But currently local EMS(only parcelforce for UK i guess) delivery also takes maximum 1 week, recently got 1 international EMS order in 4 or 5 days, same as Fedex. Usual Royal->Russian post is also better than it was, though still rather slow - around 2-3 weeks, but it has never been any faster ;d Still it would be nice if you just make several options like royal mail and parcelforce so some people have a choice, lost my irc logs but if I remember right you have both these options available there.

I made another WMAurora earlier today >:)
The last one I started to mess around with and I went a bit too far, I didn't record it quite as well as I thought I could, and also I wanted to make the process for the scroll wheel easier.

This time I used a DVD case, the spine is exactly the right width to lock into place with some double sided tape or superglue. Its really well locked in. In the video I scroll it violently and shake the mouse around (without its top cover on) and it stays put, and clicks fine every time. Later on I'll record some QL games with it.

So I'm really confident, if you can get a dremel (rotary tool) with the bullet shaped attachment, and you have a spare DVD case, this mod will take you hardly any time at all and will be as stable as a "real" mouse. Also you don't have to mod the PCB at all, so if you get bored you can put it back into the Aurora shell any time.

uh, its a good thing only 1 side at a time works. it would be annoying as fuck if all buttons worked at the same time...

the fact that its a small mouse isnt a flaw, thats just personal preference. it also tracks perfectly on my qck+. i did hear someone say it skipped when on 60cm/360 and using large sweeps, but who the fuck plays like that anyway?

so technically it has no flaws for 99% of the gamers; all comes down to do you like the grip or not :)

First of all, only being able to use 2 buttons at once is not seen as a good thing for everyone. Many people only want a 3 button mouse, but more of us would never buy a mouse with less than 5 buttons. Then there's the other extreme of those mmo mice with a whole keypad on the mouse, which I would also probably never buy.

Secondly, the point was that you cannot functionally switch to the other side even if you wanted, as the switch also switches the functionality of the two middle buttons.

Also, I didn't mention all the flaws in the FK, there are others like possible (depending where a person naturally grips the mouse) weight imbalance towards the back when used in fingertip grip. "Pixel walk" (inaccuracy) when moved slowly in the desktop environment.

And the mouse is not just "a smaller mouse". There are plenty of small mice that are still able to be palm gripped even by people with large hands. It's the particular contours of the mouse.

The WMO is a small mouse. The FK is significantly thinner than even the WMO.

First of all, only being able to use 2 buttons at once is not seen as a good thing for everyone. Many people only want a 3 button mouse, but more of us would never buy a mouse with less than 5 buttons. Then there's the other extreme of those mmo mice with a whole keypad on the mouse, which I would also probably never buy.

You have the capability to press the right mouse buttons with your pinky, while aiming in battle? Impressive :>

Secondly, the point was that you cannot functionally switch to the other side even if you wanted, as the switch also switches the functionality of the two middle buttons.

Is considered a feature, not a problem, to most.

Also, I didn't mention all the flaws in the FK, there are others like possible (depending where a person naturally grips the mouse) weight imbalance towards the back when used in fingertip grip. "Pixel walk" (inaccuracy) when moved slowly in the desktop environment.

Havent had this experience myself, who knows I could just be lucky.

And the mouse is not just "a smaller mouse". There are plenty of small mice that are still able to be palm gripped even by people with large hands. It's the particular contours of the mouse.

The WMO is a small mouse. The FK is significantly thinner than even the WMO.

Well, if you buy this mouse under the premise that you are able to palm grip it perfectly like a WMO, I think you might of made a mistake. It's measurements clearly are different, and its meant to be fingertip/claw gripped I believe (unless very small hands, then palm). For those with large hands I can agree to not buying this mouse; The fact that its fairly slim would mean you would have to cup the mouse (like touching your thumb and pinky and holding that for as long as you are gaming), so playing like this with somewhat of a deathgrip means hand cramps. I'm still considering switching to an EC2 Evo, or similar.

So again, Maybe I am lucky, but I have no technical issues with this mouse. Its made for the hardcore gamer and does what its supposed to do. I like it and can see why it would be popular.
Im not trying to sell this mouse or anything btw, just curious as to why people have these issues and I dont :P

middle finger on the right mouse button, ringfinger on the edge/side of the mouse, pinky for stability on the rightside. i literally cannot touch the right side buttons unless i wanna let go of the mouse to do so :D

Does that mean that it's not as far up (close to the cord) as on the WMO? :( If it isn't (like LITERALLY EVERY modern otherwise good mouse alsdhfgladgh) I assume the WMO case mod would solve that, so I hope it's as easy as you say and look forward to the video \:D/

The sensor reads an amount of counts per inch, for example 400, that then translates to 400 pixels (dots) per inch on the monitor. So at 400 DPI all it means is this: 1920 / 400 = 4.8 inches to get from one side of the screen to the other. By using a higer DPI, eg 800, it just makes that distance smaller (2.4 inches).

Mice have more chance to "skip" pixels at higher DPI because they have to get so many more counts from an inch, its easier to make a mistake - when it reads the surface it can think that you have moved the mouse in a direction which you didn't (people call it jitter or ripple).

600 (wide) x 500 x 4mm. I changed it since people wanted a larger size. The thickness I couldn't decide on... 4mm seems like it should be alright for most, its not too far one way or the other.
The price is £9.99 if bought on its own.

Looks cool. 600x500 is too much though, I think. Make it closer to 500x400 and it's gonna fit on somebodys table and still be large enough =) I like that it's large but that might be a little too much.

While finishing the website I was thinking of calling the mouse mat "Atmos" and then using the time of day thing to denote the colour. The reason why is because its just easier to organise as a product.

Also thinking of getting rid of the orange and blue version and instead having the colours like this:
Noon - White
Dusk - Dark red
Night - Black

And sizes:
Standard: 450x350x4mm
XL: 600x500x4mm

= 6 SKUs, compared to 4 previously, so not too bad.

So for example a full name would be:
Ninox Atmos Dusk XL

Does it sound ok to everyone? I think I'm narrowing it down now.

The mat factory had some problems earlier in the week with a typhoon, so I've had to wait longer :( They sent me some new materials to try yesterday though, I'll test them with the sensor and choose the best one. If none are any good I'll go with the original one though.

I like the idea of having 1 name and then subsection names just for color purposes.

This is good because usually a completely differently named mousepad should have a unique feel. But since they all have the same feel, just have them under 1 official line name.

The orange and blue mousepads and names were kind of cool but I don't know how many gamers would get them. For me I'd get a black and red. Black for aurora combo, and red for zowie. I've heard white pads have some problems, so I never buy white/other colors.

For the website, you better had looked around at all the other gaming/peripheral websites.

You don't need to copy, but it's a good idea to take what works and then adjust it to your own website.

I tried to buy a japanese glass mousepad (supposedly better than icemat) but the website was so fucking terrible that I didn't trust it.

I mean if the mousepad was legit and extremely baller, I would never know because the site looked too cheap and scared me off.

Also some guy posted something about sponsoring EVIL since he doesn't have a sponsor and sending him your mouse for dreamhack winter. Just an idea, Quake doesn't get much exposure... but who knows. Evil could be a solid #1 to take that tournament, especially with bloodrun in the map pool.

Sk has rapha
zowie has cooller
Ninox has Evil.

Next mouse could be EVIL signature design, all for cheap. Just a couple flights for quake events (which there are next to none)

Wow it's crazy that you put those cheap prize for suchs super quality stuff, it's easily the double with steelseries, razer etc and the quality is just not that good, what's the secret, you're just taking a very small earnings for that :3 ?

Anyway, you really deserve respect for all the process of this build, i will buy one for sure and i hope the sell are gonna be good.

Also if I make the mouse £50 or something, then it works out that I lose a lot of potential customers, so I think its better to price it lower and sell more, and get more interest and happier customers as a result.

Razer and Steel Series do a lot of R&D for their products. They heavily market their brand and products by sponsoring events, players and teams. All of this costs a lot of money. So they have to charge higher prices. If they didn't charge you that price there wouldn't be as many tournaments. Since BST doesn't do this and doesn't have a massive staff (like established companies) he can charge less.

I always hear Razer has bad build quality, but I have not experience any such thing. Same for Steel Series. Most mice companies have about the same quality products overall. They tend to use the same factories and the same components.

I'm guessing they just don't have the same economies of scale as steelseries, logitech and Razer. They're pretty small scale I think, with availability usually pretty bad (as was the case for their FK for awhile after it was released).

I know it seems a bit dicky of them to have so much profit on one sale, but that is because the common view of business is upside down, namely that a company takes some more or less rigidly priced inputs, transforms them and charges an exorbitant price.

What I think is the proper way of understanding it is that Zowie delivered you a product which you valued at more than 67$ but only took 15-20 dollars' worth of labour and capital. Of course that implies that there's much wiggle room for guys like bst and Ninox to come in and, first of all, bid away resources from Zowie by offering more for inputs and also offer a similarly good product (in the view of the consumer) and charge a bit less. As a guy potentially on the lookout for a mouse, I am very happy.

Also, does the mouse feel larger or the same size as a logitech g100s/G1/mx300 (g100s is actually narrower in the front)? Also how stiff exactly are the switches? Which mouse would you compare them to?

If I play at 1280x960 (I like a 4:3 aspect ratio) what is the ideal windows sens (in the drivers) or any other thing I have to change in the mouse drivers? Ive never used drivers with WMO (the default windows ones) and do I really benefit from playing higher than 400 dpi?
Also, is it stable at 1000hz? thats one of the main reasons for the mod. The WMO internals are too old for 1000hz without risking it.

it's probably more stable at 1000hz than the WMO is, but the difference between 500hz and 1000hz is 1ms and almost unnoticeable. the ideal windows sens is default.

the biggest difference is the sensor. unless your sensitivity/accel is very high, you're probably getting negative acceleration on the WMO because the control speed is so low. if you do have a very high sens then you start needing more than 400 DPI (you can test it here http://www.funender.com/quake/mouse/index.html)

the other reason i'd upgrade is that the WMO doesn't have omron switches. to me the WMO has a stiffer, less tactile feel and probably a measurable click delay.

Im using 3.4 and 0.25 accel, I use the slider mouse sens thing on the 6th position in the driver, I dont know if this affects QL sens or not, I just use it because the default position is too slow for windows (for moving the cursor around that is)

edit: Ok I just realized 6th position is windows default. So what do I put in "windows multiplier?"

if 1, then I get a ver low dpi, like 200something, which I guess it means 400dpi is best for me ?

With that sens and mid-high accel there is no way you'll hit the malfunctioning speed. while the Aurora looks like a great mouse, the Avago A3090 sensor it uses doesn't have any advantages over the MLT04 sensor in your WMO that will benefit you except not needing to overclock the usb port manually. While both sensors are great, I've always felt that the MLT04 is slightly more precise and has lower levels of angle snapping/prediction (which isn't necessarily a flaw, more a matter of preference) and I think that together with its shape its been so highly regraded for this long. So unless your problem is specifically the malfunctioning speed, it's debatable which is actually the better sensor.

Unfortunately and quite surprisingly, optical sensor technology haven't really evolved at all over the past 10 years. There are gaming mice which are literally 10 years old that are just as precise and even reach the same max tracking speeds as the best optical gaming sensors on the market ATM, Logitech mx300 for example. While the Aurora looks like it's going to be a great mouse in its own right, I just don't think its worth it as a WMO upgrade unless you use extremely low sensitivity (50cm/360+) and are constantly hitting the malfunctioning speed.

do you have any kind of proof that the MLT04 is more precise? I've always found it quite squirrely myself compared to Avago sensors (though none so far have had the lack of flaws that the MLT04 does).

Also, attempting to presume whether or not a person can hit max tracking speed based solely on sensitivity and accel will usually be wrong anyway. Players hand speed can vary even with the same sens/accel (though granted not by much). I have high sens/accel myself, but I can still quite easily hit the max tracking speed. 1.5 m/s is not fast, or sufficient either way.

AND don't forget that bst made a point about a sensors responsiveness being based on more than just its model name. The Aurora's sensor may very well be more precise than the same sensor in other mice.

The MLT is using its hardware limits. The 3090 chooses to use a lot of software to create more DPI and to add angle snapping. What do you think will be more precise, the hardware way or the software way? We know for the best sensor response you stick to the hardware capabilities. Also the MLT feels smoother because it has higher frames than the 3090.

I would use the MLT all the time if it could do at least 2 times the malfunction speed. At least I can still use it because the sensor will still track when you hit the maximum, the 3090 does not do this.

I flick a lot, quick fast flicks for moving not only shotting. Sometimes i've seen some weird behaviour... like I flick to the left and it keeps turning to the left for a while, really weird. I switched to another WMO and i havent seen this problem again for a while tho.

It's the only reason I'm not rushing to buy one immediately myself, although admittedly, we are in the minority here (except all the kinzu v1 users who hit insane LG but most of them aren't even aware of angle snapping).

Personally I find this a big let-down as originally it was supposed to be a feature that could be enabled/disabled through the drivers before the SROM was changed.

Thanks for the info, but is the fee still flat if I order 2 or more mice?
And also about the mousepad, will there be a bundle with the mouse, I'm looking for a new single color mat and thought why not yours.

You could maybe find someone who would do it, but it would cost quite a lot (few hundred dollars). If you can get the MCU from a mouse, you can resolder it back onto any PCB you like, as long as you get the circuit the same it should work. All the other components could be new, if you wanted. If you choose a simple PCB maybe it wouldn't be so difficult (but it would still be expensive for a mouse). I've never done it before but it should work in theory.

Congratulation that looks realy good. I'll make sure to grab a couple of thoose.

I still hope you concider one day to make it even lighter. I don't know how but maybe delet side buttons and make the plastic structure thiner or w/e, use something lighter i dunno :P I always wondered if it was possible to make the pcb 10 times smaller, basicaly nearly just the place for the sensor and that's it, but i know there is the buttons and stuff, could be realy thought to do. etc.

I received some mouse mat samples yesterday, they aren't the full samples but just a collection of small ones to test colours and materials.

Heres what I chose from them for the final spec:

- A cloth material which is very silky, and feels the same in both directions. It almost doesn't feel like cloth because its so smooth (its different to the previous mat I received from them).

The tracking is very good in both quality and max speed. Also good with the mouse turned at an angle.

The initial movement is very good imo, but at the same time it doesn't feel out of control. It feels really good with small and fast movements, because it doesn't get "sticky" and cause the mouse to jump around.

They only sent me two other smooth materials, one was the same as I had before, and the other was a rougher version of it. I think the smoothest one I chose is nicer than both of them.

Honestly its the nicest material I've used, but maybe theres some other pad out there with it, its not a secret material or anything. But I'm glad I got them to send me some new samples, or I wouldn't have known about it.

Here is a photo next to a QcK and a Talent just to give an idea of the weave. I use a grey mat so it could be seen more clearly:http://imgur.com/36wzF46

- I tried different colours but it doesn't make a huge difference, although theres only so many I can try. The differences seem to be like this:
Grey / black / blue / green: Medium LOD
Red = Highest LOD

Grey was a bit lower LOD than black, but by a very small amount.

I think most likely I'll only order black (Night) and red (Dusk) ones for now, because it keeps it simple, the names are nice, and they're the best looking (imo). They cover both kinds of LOD as well.

- A rubber base which grips to the desk, which is medium-hard (pretty sure its the same rubber as the QcK). Not much to say about it really, its flat and grippy, gets the job done :) There were some other types but either they were too soft, or not grippy enough.

- Sizes (just to recap):
Large: 450x350mm
Huge: 600x500mm
I have to confirm the depth with the factory, its the last thing I'm unsure about. If anyone feels like voting I've made a poll here:

Next step is to get some final samples, but I'll put them up for pre-order even though I don't have photos, because I probably won't get the samples before the site is up, but hopefully I can explain it well enough to make do for a few days!

"same in both directions" oh man, that's so good! I'm starting to hate my goliathus speed just cause it has so different tracking depending on how you place it on the table...

Also it seems like you have some difficult time choosing color versions. So what I'd suggest you is getting black and some other one, just to make diversity - nothing more (just like you said Nigh and Dusk would be great, cause making too much choice could be even worse than making one mousepad in one color). Anyway I wouldn't order anything else than simple black/grey.

Also in the future you might wanna make some of special versions, like Quake, CS, Starcraft (or maybe one with esr logotype and jamerio quotes :c) layers and stuff, so ppl from specific groups would be interested.

4mm thick is perfect, everyone shall be okayish with it, don't worry.

You're going so much in the right direction with BST stuff, bst.)) Wish you all best with this brand - it might go crazy good if well controled.

I prefer the surface of the supermat to the qck. The qck surface was inconsistent for me. At first it felt perfect, then it started to feel slippery after a few days so I returned it. From what I hear from others it wears down progressively and gets grippier and grippier.

Thing is there's a established product with those specifications, available everywhere and with a better brand reputation. No idea why he would want to compete against the QCK heavy when he might as well don't.

Having a mouse pad like a square has little benefit. Not many people like such a pad, nor do they have space for such a shape. In a FPS there is no need for that shape, I can see if you are playing a flying game.

Offering many colors allows the user to tune the LOD for their particular mouse. For instance Zowie mice have such a low LOD some users will want to increase the LOD with a red pad. Whereas users that use the DeathAdder 3.5G may want to use the gray. It's better than stacking mouse feet -- as you know doing that takes the sensor out of the design specs.

Not only does color change LOD it can change the frame rate of the sensor. Offering a blue and gray pad that will increase the sensor performance, yet slightly increasing the LOD, is a nice option. Offering red and black initially is great. Maybe you can stock up in this decreasing order: black, red, blue, gray, white.

Is the gray the same color as the cable of the white Zowie mice? It would be appealing if it was. It maybe appealing if the blue was like the color of the LED for the older Razer mice. Although, performance should be the deciding factor not color matching to mice. The red could be closer to the wavelength of the LED (as shown in the spec sheet) for the best performance.

If the price was great I would buy a large: black, red, blue, gray and (maybe) white.

I would prefer as thin as possible. Because why do u need a cushion under your mouse?
And also it seems thinner pad edges live a longer life due to the fact that they are lower and get rubbed against less - at least that's my observation, maybe someone more knowledgeable can enlighten me if I'm wrong.

If you have such a noticeable flaw in your table you can just fix it, or if it is so major that a small fix wont help, just use a thin piece of plywood, sheet of metal or a strong piece of cardboard under the pad...

If you're traveling via air to lan, you might receive some questionable looks going through customs with those objects. Furthermore, certain mice have the ability to create indentations in desk surfaces.

Via air, that sounds like a bigger LAN event already, I don't believe the organizers would use desks with such noticeable flaws (?)
Here is my take on it: if it is noticeable you wont fix it with 6mm of mousemat, if it isn't noticeable why would you need 6mm mat?

Didn't know about creating indentations to the desk, but by the sound of it, it seems that a softpad would cause too much friction or wear out the fabric/feet fast(er)? (if I understood correctly)

I read/hear all these reasons why people prefer thicker pads, I just don't see the logic in it =/
- Okay, maybe if you have a really small mouse and you don't use claw grip for it your wrist can benefit from the soft and thick pad, but then again why would anybody use so small mouse for a longer period of time that they would have to buy a thick mousemat (given they don't own it).

Of course I have, also I am playing with Roccat Sense (2mm) right now =/
Padding can be useful, sure I don't disagree, I just don't find it useful in gaming.
I don't play with a brick nor have I played with a full metal mouse, but stopping a "100g piece plastic" isn't too hard, if noticeable at all. I would rather have as little friction as possible.
Let's see what the majority of people want and go with it, I'm just stating my opinions ;)

Agree and mouse glide on thin pads feels better, almost like hard pad. Less rubber also means cheaper pad.
Rubber cushion is only good for princesses with delicate skin and people with post ww2 tables.

Using a laptop doesn't exactly allow for a mousepad underneath and I'd rather not cut it, especially if it has an anti-fray edge around it.
But I guess I can always buy a separate mousepad if I decide to buy this mouse.

It should be pretty durable, but I don't know for sure because I haven't had these pads long enough. But the last pad I had from them is still like new, and I used it for a few months.

I tried to rip the edges up on one pad and it ripped the rubber before the glue came away, so its stuck together very well.

I think because the mat is so smooth, and the rubber is firm (so the mouse feet don't sink in much) the lower friction should help it last longer than a rough/soft mat. The material itself looks good on close inspection, its not fluffy or frayed. So overall I think the quality is good and it should wear well. Its just my impression of it, but I can say for sure that its definitely not bad quality.

I wish this could be available already, i have no mouse left for gaming, this is obviously the best mouse i can get, i can't even get a WMO, they are so hard to find in France unless you buy one for 25/30euro which is just ridiculous.

Erm, that velocity was an A3050 in aurora shell, although some people also got a smaller shell which is somewhat pcb-compatible, you can probably ask some spare one from bst, I guess he's not planning to release it anymore(note that you have to solder a lower profile wheel encoder to fit the pcb into that shell)

Its on hold, maybe never to happen, since its not that much different to a G100S. I just don't know if that many people would want it. I would prefer to make mice with brand new shells. But maybe in future I would make something to replace the Aurora (like a version 2), which has a way to remove the side buttons, which would make it a lot like the Velocity.

How much bigger is the aurora in comparison to the g100s or G1 (the g1/mx300/g3 are slightly bigger)? I saw the dimensions of the mouse, but those don't mean much if you aren't taking the shape into consideration, since the feeling of the size can vary significantly depending on how flat/low/etc the shell is.

Hmm a bit hard to explain. I done some comparison photos with the RX250 which is similar to the G1 here, if you haven't seen them before:http://www.erasem.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=2
The RX250 feels a bit bigger, but only in a very subtle way - the sides are straighter and it is taller at the back (slopes down less).

Hmm, never tried the RX250 before but thanks for letting me know. If you could perhaps make some comparasion pictures between the g1/g100s/rx250/aurora that would be helpful, but I'm sure you're busy and most likely don't have the time for it.
guess the only way for me to find out would be to try it =)

BTW, do you by any chance have any of the old beta versions of the aurora with an A3050 sensor left over that you can sell? I know that technically speaking the A3090 is the better sensor of the two, but there is something about 'bulkier' and slightly less responsive feeling of the A3050 that I personally like.

Edit: One last question, Would it by any chance be possible to port Aurora PCB in a kinzu v2 (or original kinzu)?

How stiff is the mouse wheel? I plan on getting this as my next mouse, but if the scroll wheel is like Steelseries / some Razer(Deathadder 2013) I may have to mod it to be stiffer. Reason being I jump with the scroll wheel and with certain mice(I'm assuming Omron as well) it does so without my consent. I would really prefer not to mod the mouse though, some feedback would be greatly appreciated.

My current mouse is the Zowie FK which I never have the problem, although the notches aren't too consistent.

Edit: On the mice that I had troubles with I was forced to use mwheel down instead of my preferred mwheel up, due to mwheel down being harder to accidentally activate.

Sounds like he's just bad to me. I jump with scroll and I like a loose wheel like the deathadder for comfort of using it often and I don't have a problem with accidentally hitting it. I see that they're both 24 step TTC wheels - do you have anything more specific for the model or resistance? I'm going to get an aurora, hopefully I'll like the wheel.

The default resistance is 14-40gf.cm, which they class as "standard lighter force". You could also see it as 27±13gf.cm.

Overall you could say its a light-normal feeling, you could get an extreme of 14 or 40 when you buy a mouse with this encoder, but mostly they'll be closer to 27.

I could ask for them with the light force (14-26 / 20±6) , but then they would all be very light, maybe too light for some people. Also usually they have some really high order quantity for going outside of the default.

Heres the full list of options, but they don't sell anything but the 14-40 off the shelf, so they aren't 'free' options ;)

Sounds good. It'll probably feel a bit stiffer because it looks like a smaller wheel diameter, but not by too much. This wheel has lasted me 5+ years of spamming the hell out of it so it's pretty durable. There's about a step worth of loose space when moving between up and down notches now, but I don't mind.

How many buttons does it have? Can these be reprogrammed? Is there going to be a software package? Macro's? DPI/HZ adjustments? Profiles?

Just got myself 2 g400s' to try out the ADNS-3090, it's one of the best sensors I tried yet. But both mice do have a little quirk though - when I set the dpi rather high (2000+), the cursor starts to act quite jittery during slow diagonal movements. Only 800dpi seems to be flawless (supersmooth), lowering the dpi also introduces slight jitter (even at 700dpi) during slow diagonals, but not as much. Tried on various mousepads. 1000Hz achieves smoothest results, jitter is slightly worse at 500Hz. It's very acceptable though, I'm generally a nitpick and test on a CRT (way less obvious on an LCD because of blur).

It surely beats the Sentinel Advance II I had before, the sensor in that one had all kinds of issues.

I ordered a Roccat Kone Pure Optical which also uses the ADNS-3090, I'm hoping the jitter issue is not a fault of the sensor but rather one of Logitech. I will test it in the same way.

How are the Huano White 3Ms? Tactile, nice feedback? The sidebuttons on the G400s are pretty good, but I'm definitely no fan of the dpi buttons (don't register while pressed softly, mushy click), and the wheel is pretty bad as well (not accurate, scroll sometimes registers before click, hard to press).

Yes, I read it too quickly and skipped over some vital parts in my enthusiasm.

I took some time this time, found out the info on the buttons but still am not sure about the software package, what the driver does exactly and what features/customizations will be available (can dpi be manually set? In what steps? Does it allow for software profiles? Can the polling rate be set manually like on the steelseries, 960Hz for example? etc.).

Also still curious about how those Huano White 3Ms perform, I think the advance II might have had those as well. If that's the case, they should be pretty good (way better than the dpi buttons on the G400s).

It allows software profiles, you need to keep the software installed to switch between them. You can save one profile to the mouse, which includes everything you set in that profile (eg, dpi steps, macros assigned to buttons, etc).

DPI steps are 400 / 800 / 1600 / 3200 / 4000

USB polling rate options are: 125hz / 250hz / 500hz / 1000hz

The Huano White 3Ms are nice, they have a tactile and crisp action. They aren't quite as good as Omrons for repetitive clicks, but are very good for DPI and side buttons.

Just realized I might not have been clear with my definition of 'manually'.

I should have asked if I can set other values for both dpi and polling rate aside from the predetermined default steps.

The G400s allows me to set the dpi manually in steps of 50dpi for example, but also has some predetermined steps which are the default.

So to be clear, as I understand it now, the Aurora will support only the steps mentioned above, nothing inbetween. I guess I'm out of luck if I like 2000dpi for some games then, but I can work around that.

I'm still not sure about profiles :)

Are they linked to executables, meaning automatic detection based on which game is running, or would I need to either press a profile-switch on the mouse or open up the software often?

I think the link-to-exe method is the most convenient, like on the G400s. Never have to think about it after setting it. Downside is that the driver software must be running to be able to detect the exe, but I'm cool with that.

Have you checked if a manually set polling rate actually works? In my experience, steelseries mice have had trouble getting a stable polling rate at all. So setting the rate to say 857 or whatever was pure illusion. Yes the software enabled you to do it. But what showed in the software wasn't real.

The Steelseries I had reacted to the settings, but wasn't as precise as I would have liked it to be.

For example, Setting the pollingrate at 960Hz and the max I got returned was 969Hz or something (required wild input, the rate fluctuates depending on the amount of input - as with other mice). Set it to 1000Hz and I got 999Hz max in return.

The CM Sentinel Advance II had multiple settings lower than the default 125Hz (like 100 and 60 I believe), but the lowest it actually accepted was 125Hz (settings didn't do anything lower than that).

1000Hz is good, I'm not really worried or anything but would be a lovely extra to see manual adjustments.

I think more DPI-options are of more importance. 1600-3200 is a pretty big step.

I love people who get overenthusiastic over new products. I have a BRAND NEW product, I´ts not even on the market yet. Buy now it will almost have hit the stores but if you send me 150 euros I will send it to you.

Just got the Roccat Kone Pure Optical, and man, jitter during diagonal movements is WAY worse with this mouse than it is with the G400s, so unfortunately I think it might be an actual issue with the sensor.

Are there any alternatives to the ADNS-3090?

Despite the horrible mousewheel and DPI-buttons, I'll stick with the G400s for now, until the Aurora is released.

Drawn at 1000Hz, default sensitivity (6th notch, or whatever the driver has as midpoint).

The G400s performs acceptable at higher DPI settings, the Kone Pure Optical does not. Both exhibit jitter to an extent, gets worse the higher the dpi are. Both use the ADNS-3090.

Played around alot with dpi, driver sensitivity and windows sensitivity for ages, but no matter what the combination, results on the Roccat were always unaccceptable.

Used the best mousepad I have (cloth gaming pad, other mice perform best on this one. Tried others - worse results).

Didn't have this with the CM Sentinel Advance II, which isn't optical. Smooth lines at every dpi. However, it stuttered when direction was suddenly reversed (prediction error I think), had a bit of lag and had trouble moving one pixel at once using higher dpi settings.

The lines you drew with the Aurora look good, but I'm curious how it performs at 2000+ dpi. If it can manage to avoid jitter, that'd be great. If it performs the same as the G400s, that'd be pretty good as well.

I don't have the new software for this version of the Aurora I'm using at the moment, so I couldn't use 3200 DPI, but here is 4000:http://i.imgur.com/O7otWDV.png

Don't worry too much about high DPI, the only reason there are mice out there with over 2000 DPI is because of a misconception that its necessary. Its just because companies know that a lot of people think higher DPI means more precision.

All 4000 DPI means is that the mouse cursor will move 4000 pixels with 1 inch of movement. But it isn't so easy to do that when you consider that in one square inch it must be able to read 16 million unique areas in order for it to have perfect tracking. So thats why 4000 DPI looks so bad at today's relatively low resolutions - its really going to be used mostly when people have displays like 8000x4000px (it will feel like a 1000 DPI mouse does at 1080p then, and any jitter will look 4x smaller on those displays, and be 4x less important because everything will be 4x bigger so you can still see things).

I think people mostly use higher dpi settings to compensate for games lacking proper pixel accuracy at default sensitivity (skipping too many pixels at minimal input). Solution is to turn ingame sensitivity down and dpi setting up. Never needed anything higher than 2000dpi so far.

I forgot to say that tracking is from the Ninox Atmos mouse mat, I don't know if it'll track as well on the mouse mat you're using. So it can't be seen as a direct comparison - those other mice might track just as well on the Ninox mat :)
(What one were you using btw? Maybe I can post the results from that if I have one).

I see what you mean about the sensitivity in some games, sucks that people are forced to do that :(

I used an Ozone Gaming Gear Gamers' Environment, I don't think it's very well known or reviewed often. Also have a couple of nonbrands lying all over the place, one of them glass, got a QCK Heavy and an old Everglide. The QCK is kaputt (burns). Still got some areas left on it where I can test on, but it's not practical to actually use it. The Everglide and glass ones are too icey, I prefer a cloth-like mat (slight resistance). Aside from some of the sloppy nonbrands, jitter performance is about the same on all the higher grade ones.

I favor The Ozone, despite being a couple of years old. Judging from the info, the Ninox Atmos looks about the same in the material department, so I'll probably get me a couple of those as well when released.

i don't think we have been trolled, i just think that the expectations has been so high that most people have been let down over and over again. and the fact that bst has never been able to keep a single promise since he first promised a release 2-whatever years ago doesn't make it better. people stop caring eventually. i came to the point where i cba checking this thread. i will do the same this time and take a look in another 3-4 months out of curiosity.

Good afternoon. Will there be a future opportunity to display DPI mouse through the driver below 400 DPI? For example 250 DPI. This is an extremely important opportunity for me, because I play on a low sensitivity (52 cm/360), but try to use the same sensitivity in 3D shooters and Windows desktop for an effective workout in Missionred. Therefore, changing the mouse sensitivity through its driver is the only possible way for me (sensitivity in Windows is always 6/11 ). Ninox Aurora became interesting to me right away, as soon as I saw it, due to its shape, weight, and the sensor. But the inability to set DPI below 400 for driving me all the benefits of the mouse to nothing.

Please don't release this mouse with the 4000 DPI Avago 3090 firmware. It is vastly inferior to the 3500 DPI firmware and just introduces massive levels of mouse smoothing that shouldn't be in any gaming mouse. I posted in detail about it here:

"The Aurora doesn't have that problem, so it can't be down to the 4000 DPI A3090 SROM.

I don't have a Savu or Kana V2, so I don't know what they're like."

If you have any interest in trying a Kana V2 or Savu, whether it be for comparison to help in development, or use, or whatever, I can send you basically a brand new one of each. Both only used for a few hours if you want to send me an Aurora sample (don't care if it's new or used)

The Kana V2 cost me $100 alone to get shipped to the US, and the Savu was around $50. Can even send you a Krait 2013 with them if you want. Both it, and the Kana v2 aren't available in the US.

I guess I can sign an NDA or whatever to not defame the mouse if it does indeed have the same smoothing problem.

I'm currently not a potential customer for this mouse after seeing the smoothing in all Avago firmware over 3500 DPI in the last 3 mice I've purchased: Savu, Kana v2, Krait 2013 (same sensor as deathadder 4g).

There's my thread for BIOS & Windows optimization for mouse response, so you can see I'm pretty picky about this stuff:

I've read your post on overclock.net and i have to say, some motherboards such as GIGABITE had real problems regarding 3D performances dunno why. I noticed it when FarCry 2 came out a few years ago, i made test with multiple motherboards CPU and other hardware, the problem was coming from the GIGABITE motherboards. Dunno why.

Other than that you prove nothing with your thread and it looks realy just complet paranoid, while back in the days when i detected that problem with GIGABITE motherboards (was the P35 and or P45 series iirc) i could see it while ingame with fps decreasing drasticaly and very specific software benchmark for 3D.

DPC Latency checker will show flawless green line with or without all the craps you mentionned ON or OFF, just saying.

Give some evidences first...

edit : you do realise the latency in DPC is in 0.001 of a second? All you can feel is placebo, lol. Also RAM latency numbers are in NANO seconds all you can feel there is placebo too.

Is the mouse's internal sample frequency controllable or is it fixed to something like 1000 Hz? I mean the frequency it updates the usb endpoint data cache where the PC reads it at whatever Hz you clocked your usb line to. Those 2 are not the same, which I hope you know. Just worried.

edit: or rather, I'm curious if / how much variance there is between mice and if they've thought about even having more than say 100 or 125 position updates on them. Do the engineers play it safe and just make the mouse have tons more updates than the PC could ever request or what.

Getting it day 1 before everyone else I think.
Also going on Quake Live and other games and showing off "Hey guys I got a new mouse, the one BST made, u jelly? I know u all mad, say it. Admit it. Pls?"
In a nutshell being someone like a hipster?

I got some photos of the mouse mat samples yesterday:http://i.imgur.com/XU5joIr.jpg
Unfortunately they made a mistake with the black ones. Can you tell what it is? :/http://i.imgur.com/zN44j6I.jpg
They're going to remake the black ones.
I really emphasized that logo thing in the emails and even the file names but still! Its like platting fog sometimes.

Bottom right logos are not great. The Artisan pads have a logo there, I can feel a horrible change in glide as the mouse passes over it. Artisan claims you wouldn't feel it, but I do. A logo on the top corners is a better idea because you don't often use that area like you do the bottom.

If you don't have a large table you will be using the lower area of the pad. If you used the top portion your arms will be stretched out or you will be very close to the monitor. You need to have some room for the monitor.

Also in FPS games you are more likely to be moving the mouse downwards than upwards. Right handed people are more likely to move pass the edge of the right side of the pad than the left, because their keyboard is blocking the mouse on the left..

I don't know where you get the idea that majority of right handed people use the left of the pad.

i set my pitch/yaw appropriately so i dont need to drag it up or down for miles in awkward fashion.

also i think you need to reset your mouse position more often, it avoids reaching the edges of ur pad, and allows you to be ready with proper aim at all times :)

that said, everything you said is reverse for me :P

long arms, i use alot of my desk. mouse on the top left ish side of the pad (like only a few CM to the top/left from the center). its only an issue when i forget to reset my mouse near the center of the pad and i have to look left... like alot :>

i use accel. that said, when i did use low ish sens and made large sweeps i still never ended up at the bottom right of my pad... that'd mean i have to go off the pad with my wrist, i guess i just dont do that.

The factory said they dyed the logo in, so it shouldn't feel any different to the rest of the pad. Also its thin and positioned low down, so the sensor on most mice will never be low enough to read from that area.

It needs to be done with a soldered switch to get true results. To many factors without doing so. Also need to have USB hubs with 1000Hz set through driver on the OS.

Every time the firmware is changed the latency changes. So the test can be irrelevant for the retail mouse and after firmware updates later in its life.

Why not have the factory create a program similar to that Mouse Speed Test program? Get the signal as direct as possible per mouse instead of requiring another mouse to compare. Have it store the results, calculate the average and create graphs with other mice tested. They probably have something like that already. It would be a nice program for people to test mice and firmwares.

Eventually you will be grateful to him for taking his time. Developing electronics (especially hardware) is not simple. Where the other companies (SS, Zowie, Razer) failed, he will probably succeed, that is NOT RELEASING AN INCOMPLETE PRODUCT. Incomplete meaning it has flaws or outright design defects (bugs, hw defects etc...).

When you have waited for years for your MX300 replacement, it really does not matter how long it takes now, as long as the mouse is absolutely perfect, and I have my hopes really high for Aurora.

You do have a point though, he's taking his time, but it would be nice if he gave us at least weekly status updates, especially now that the estimated release date is so close.

With SS rival just released with the 3310 sensor why would anyone pay $44 for an OEM Shell mouse using old sensor (3390). With the 3310 sensor being far superior to the 3390 it's only time before every major brand starts switching to it. If BST sells the mouse for $35 I think all the other major mouse brands will have a hard time competing against the aurora. With the 3310 being the new staple for gaming sensors it would be only right to put it in the velocity and any future mice from BST.

It's less about the sensor, but about the implementation. Rival seems to have smoothing which people don't like. Companies always do this, implement features they think the user needs, which the sophisticated gamer does not like.

Aurora is designed with the demanding gamer in mind, so it may deliver in performance more than Rival, despite the older sensor, because of the software and implementation.

As for the shell. It may be OEM and nobody really likes it, but it is nearly identical to the legendary MX300 shape, which is a good shape.

Also, Rival weights a ton and has an ergonomic shape. Shape and weight are one of the most important elements in choosing a mouse, so in no way does the Rival make the Aurora obsolete.

The only fanboys here are those who try to help SS or Razer sell more mice. The fact that a decade old mouse (WMO) is still considered one of the best mice out there for gaming speaks volumes about achievements of other mouse companies so far. Sensor performance has not improved much (if at all), instead we have a market filled up to the brim with so called features noone needs. Did someone really ask for

Noone. Yet things like this are what many companies believe to be the next step for an input device called pc-mouse. Add to this the fact that marketing has taken over with flashy lights, voiced announcements for DPI changing ("4000 DPI!!!!" screaming from your speakers, thank you Roccat!).

Maybe BSTs will fail. Maybe he won't deliver. But hell, looking at the hole fucking rest of the companies he's the only one right now walking uphill not downhill. And as long as that does not change, I hope the wait will be worth it.

Hahaha! Yes I almost shat my pants when I heard that Roccat voice when switching DPI, laughed afterwards. Luckily you can turn it off. The drivers even came with some kind of ridiculous achievement system.

All those people thinking that new = always better, are they retarded or something? 3390 is next to perfect sensor, perfect accuracy, 0 problems etc. You cant be better then then something perfect. It was proven so many times during recent decades that new technology that is forced on industry by big companies, can be worse then what already existed once. Look at 'laser sensors' which were supposed to be the 'future of progaming mice', where are they now? remember GODLY crt monitors with 160-200hz (i use a 200hz right now and laugh at ppl buying 144hz 2ms input lag lcd shits called 'gaming monitors' for 400$+ while there are still crts out there in good condition being sold for under 50$. Its all about marketing bullshit that most people just eat and think that they the most expensive new equipment to own. In reality, Most of the gaming accessories (not talking about pc parts okay) were already made PERFECT back in the days, and what is being made right now is WORSE then what was been made before. This rule applies to mice - old avago 3390 is perfect sensor and i cant imagine improving it really since there is nothing to improve, just need some new sensor technology (not laser) which will bring something completely unheard of to beat avago 3390. Same about mechanical keyboards made back in the days - they are still the best right now, same about crts - they are still FAR ahead of even most contemporary lcd bullshit with high ms input lag.

So you're quite excited in your fifth post, so I suggest that we keep things cool and chillzZz, do you agree? Well you don't have to of course, but then discussions will be a lot better if we keep it cool.
So you are not totally right or totally wrong. But because of your hatred towards the industry, and people, you totally got everything wrong. Again you should stay calm man, what's wrong :)?

If you had read this thread and the previous one (part one), you should have seen that BST has a different approach. First of all you started saying "big companies". BST does not own a huge corporation with stock holders as you might be thinking. I won't explain you everything because it's written all over ESR what he does and what is his situation as an entrepreneur. Also BST never claimed anywhere that his products will be far better than anything that existed until now as far as I remember. He is giving customers an alternative. It is not easy for everyone to get an hand on the old "perfect" mices for instance, or even some new ones. It can also be too expensive in the end for some people depending on their location.

About the CRT monitors, I love them, I still have one. But you can not stay back in the past. Flat monitors are great because they are not heavy and they are not taking that much space, also there is the power consumption problem, if it's whether or not eco-friendly. Investing in thinner monitors is great for people like me who loves managing their environment, and some other people might even have more reasons. One day, if the market does not slow down the progress too much, we will reach the point where CRT monitors will not have anything better at all. I think that the technology to surpass CRT is already here, but it's just too expensive, if I'm not wrong.

So yes the obsolescence being controlled and programmed, the thirst for the profit, etc is somehow a brake so we can't replace our dear CRT monitors with something that completely destroys them yet technically, but it's not as bad as you think.

It sounds a bit like you can't live your life normally if you don't have your CRT anymore, which I believe is not true. Try it.

And by the way, I don't know where you live, but the price of the Ninox Aurora is seriously low, to me at least, and as I can see many people on this website.

You can stick to what always worked great for you, nobody will hate you for that, nobody SHOULD NOT criticize you for doing that. But man, some people open their minds a bit more, and try new stuffs. If you can afford it, if you can take the risk to try something different, if you don't mind, then what's the problem?

When they came, they cost 3x the price of a better CRT and their only selling point was size/weight (power savings were laughable due to price, and still are esp. now that people buy 27" and larger LCDs which take more power than my CRT).

So what happened here was a decision to stop production of a superior product to concentrate on making inferior but much more expensive product, then gradually improve it to sell more models, because the previous tech was simply too good already.

They're progressing of course and I'd say they're at a place CRT's were in the 80s. 10 more years and we'll see panels with viewing angles and speed and maybe without the horrible corner bleed that makes me cringe so hard. Another 10 years and even cheap models would be passable, but by then, some another display tech will be invented to repeat the history (OLEDs? flexible panels? Actual holographic displays?)

Of course I can live without a CRT. But it's not like a natural disaster that just happens and no one can do anything about it (which is when argument like yours applies). It's actual people changing the market for worse on purpose, to make more money in the course of decades. That's not ok.

In mice there were at least some decent models through the years, so you could get a good non-WMO but more expensive. In displays it's nothing like that.

Yes but when flat panels were new on the market you had to be really crazy to switch during that time, it took me years before getting one, and even then I never used it 100% of my time. My argument about being whether or not capable to overcome the fact that CRTs are not that necessary anymore, I brought it for today's situation! About the market, yes it's people who worsened the current state, however the people can also better it! Many people who feel hatred towards these huge corporates don't understand the logic of profit. As customers many only see suppliers as people who follow their needs (which is not wrong) and ONLY THAT (which can be wrong). I'm not pro or against any side here (I feel like you put me on the capitalist side), I tried to explain him there is not really any reason to feel the way he did: you need to change business models, the market globally, or the mentality that reigns in general as I said in another post. Also, in the last part of the post you replied to, I kinda told him that he has the choice, if he did not then I'd understand his rant completely, if he can keep the good and old tech so go ahead and do that, it's fine! :)

if he can keep the good and old tech so go ahead and do that, it's fine!

If he didn't have the choice, then he would have to use something he doesn't want to, he doesn't like to. Is there an authority that prevents him from using a CRT? No. There is only the fact that companies ceased their production that can be seen as "bad" for him, but since we can still find them in second hand stores, etc, it's not like he does not have the choice.

exactly, thanks for correcting, my bad!
also what are you talking about zb0t, have you even read what i typed out there? if anything, my message supports what bst does in every part of it, and when i talk about money and technologies gamers dont want, i am talking about not what bst does, but what the big companies like razer, logitech and others do - all they do is marketing and think about getting more money, without doing proper producs. Quality of mices is seriously low atm, bad cords, shitty sensors, strange (to say the least, look at those 10+ button mouses) design decisions etc.

I'm gonna fuck quit and stick with my WMO, i think i prefer the shape anyway, the mousepad and the mousefeet still interest me but idk, he post this thread the 5 october and according to him he should have give some news/photo about samples, we should have seen some review to i think but nothing happened 2 months later and he didnt give a sign of life since some time now..........

I find funny how every year in this very same dates people have an urge to buy stuff, even without discounts and even if those aren't potential xmas gifts. Or in other words, a months difference doesn't matter.

I have put a WMO pcb in a old logitech mouse shell, which is the same as aurora, and it seems i feel more control in cs with the classic WMO, probably because i palm the WMO lol.
(the shape is really identical, even the inside and the way of open it, 1screw and clip on the front)

I think Cooler Master are going to be the next company to bring out a 3310 over the 3090. That is if they can hurry up and finish their firmware development.

I don't think Razer will offer a 3310, at least not any time soon. Nor do I think Logitech will offer a 3310 in their G400. Zowie might offer the 3310 in their mice after they fix all the issues with their mice first.

You can tell when there's something to it. Look at all these posts its not trolling constantly . Its peoplenot working on a great product for the community. I'll definitely check this out as the reviews are good

I'm still so depressed that the Velocity was cancelled. It would have been the God Mouse for those of us with a fingertip grip. But I guess the Aurora will just have to do, if it ever comes out that is. By the time it does, gaming with a mouse and keyboard will be dead and I will be in my 30s.

Should Aurora do well, there might be a chance for a revival of Velocity.

Although I'd hope that if Aurora becomes a financial success for BST, that he develops an own shell and offers that same shell in two size variants - the normal size for palm/claw and a small size for claw/fingertip. Both sporting the ADNS-3310 sensor.

Considering how long people have been using their WMOs or the IME3.0s, simply because they work well, regardless of how old they are, I see no real reason for bst to jump on a new sensor for the sake of it being a new sensor.

I'd like to see bst reusing the sensor and firmware of the Aurora for a palm-grip shell mouse for those who palm grip.

Taking the likes of the WMO as an example again, the 3090 is more than good enough to stand the test of time. Take the working formula --> reappropriate it for a different product aimed at a different demographic --> profit. Look at the FK/AM/EC2 eVo, for example. Maybe slap some extra buttons for macros and market it towards MMO players.

If bst were to make a followup product on the same platform but with tweaks to the shell/buttons/switches/etc., it's possible we'd get a followup product with a shorter development time, and a bigger crowd using the Ninox brand.

I can totally see the Aurora being used a decade on from now, provided it's as good as the hype surrounding it, and I don't have a reason to doubt it, either.

A single sample of a single model is hardly statistically significant.

I intend no disrespect, but a single mouse cannot be representative of the sensor.

As well as that, while your experience was a negative one, and it is in fact as valid as a positive one, it is still a personal account, which merely indicates that the mouse did not work for you. For the average user, it may not have been something even remotely noticeable, for a top-tier player, it may simply be something to put up with, as the pros outweigh the cons (WMO for Rapha, for example).

Whatever the case, I was driving at the point that people have been using various mouses with quite significant 'issues' for years, and have simply put up with them, writing it off as the character of that mouse (neg accel for WMO, hardware accel for the Kinzu, very specific operating window for G100s, etc.). There's nothing to say that the vastly superior sensor of the Aurora cannot be in demand as long as that of the WMO.

**EDIT** Forgot to put this in before I hit 'submit'. Not trying to start a shitstorm or come off as some passive-aggresive asshole. This is honestly what I think. =)

If you add the smiley at the end it will never look so bad. What would the internet be without smileys? Think about it! Sometimes to avoid the confusion I also add "haha/hihi", I think it works even better! By the way before I read your edit I didn't think you were mad.

Edit: writing this post made me chuckle a little, because how silly people takes everything the wrong way online!

Had a massive fight today, shit mood, no motivation, but if Maximillian is in a shit mood as he's reading my response to him, he might take it the wrong way, and damnit I can't stand for that! xD

That's the weird thing: I'm fucking enraged as I'm typing that post, yet I go out of my way to both, come across as neutral as possible as I have no beef with the guy, and state that in as overly-obvious fashion as possible to avoid misunderstanding, all the while knowing that it's only the internet, and people are perfectly capable of shrugging online arguments off anyway.

He probably was told that the 3090 is being discontinued. He has to start over again using the 3310. So expect to wait another 3 years. This is why you never tell anyone about your product before it actually exists. =P

For those of you who don't know. Avago shutdown their sensor business. They sold/licensed their technology/product to PixArt. PixArt then created the 3310 using Avago's framework. This is the sensor that will be in future mice that aren't laser mice. There is already two products being sold with this sensor. It appears CM Storm is also going to unveil some future 3310 products very soon.

The 3310 could be much better than the 3090 would ever be. The pin layout is different, a slight increase of FPS, angle tuning / angle snapping options, increased accuracy potential, power optimization, internal oscillator, updated DSP and more. Downside: it looks like the pin layout is going to increase PCB size, increasing the total weight of mice. I don't even think it was necessary to have so many pins for the 3310.

I hope this 3310 sensor isn't reaching these crazy 4+ m/s malfunction speeds because it is relying on angle snapping rather than total frames captured. I like angle snapping as an option, not a requirement. If that is the case the 3090 will be better in this area. No one wants to be stuck with a angle snapping reliant sensor for 5-10 years.

I don't understand why he wouldn't bother updating us on what's the situation if he visited the site.
It's much better to be honest with your consumer base then to leave them confused; especially if things aren't going as planned and set-backs occur.

Rockin' an M305 until this comes out ._. Otherwise I'll most likely get a Zowie FK. I'm assuming a G400s is too big for my hands + I heard the cord really sucks... Also not used to playing with a full palm grip.

It takes at least 2 weeks to get a shipment from China to the port. It would not be unusual if it took 4 weeks to receive shipments. This does not include shipping to your door from the retailer.

Manufacturing a small batch takes 4 weeks or more. Unless they have large molds or have been making parts early.

It's been about 2 weeks since BST logged in and his last post was Nov. 14. The last time he updated his newsletter was March 25, 2013.

It's odd when the new PMW3310DH came out he went silent. This whole Ninox Aurora situation is odd. It does not take this long to bring out an OEM product, it doesn't take this long to develop a new product. There has been at least 5 new mice released and 2 new sensors developed before this Ninox product.

I agree, this shouldn't have taken that long, even with all the factory back and forth.

I actually had the though, that perhaps he changes the sensor on the Aurora to the 3310 and thus the delay. Honestly I wouldn't mind, as I intend to use the mouse for some time if it turns out to be good. Better future proof.

This mouse looks great in most aspects, good size, low weight, good sensor, reasonable price etc.

The one thing I'm unsure about for me personally is that the mouse looks narrow at the back. I've always preferred mice with a "wide ass", my previous mouse was abyssus and I'm using ime 3.0 atm. I've never used a wmo but it looks like a "wide ass" mouse aswell :]

It's hard to tell for sure from pictures but it's my impression from what I've seen.

The market is not the same as when the mouse was announced. Back in 2011 there were very few good alternatives and brands, whereas now it's more a matter of preference since lots of mice work (almost) flawlessly and don't take more than two years to finish a product..

Question is what actual available mice out there, that combine that shape, that weight, good optical sensor, good (omron) switches and not overpriced? Tell me and I buy it at the instant!

You know, it is 2014 and since 2011 I still have not the mouse that I truly want, and I don't really see anything like the Aurora on the horizon, yet.

That is why I am looking at Cooler Master, because chances are their next optical (beside the Spawn "reboot") may be worth looking into.

Razer? Not with Synapse, no way.

Roccat? Overpriced and over the top, but if they come up with something close to as described above, given their product quality, than I might budge, though I don't see it coming, because they'll rather come up with something over the top.

SteelSeries? There is always something about their mice that they screw up, KanaV2 had the single side buttons, Rival is large and heavy, etc. I gave up on them.

Mionix? Overpriced.

Zowie? Weird dpi, lens, switches...

So who do you think will give us the mouse we want? I don't see many options.

He took years to perfect the implementation of the previous sensor (since 2011), and if that info is true now he is working on a sensor that very few have experience on and isn't as documented as well.

In other words, this new delay is because of the previous delays, most probably the finished product won't be as good and nowhere near the first announced release date. If what you wrote is true I call vaporware already, as it isn't the same product at the expected time/moment.

To be honest I have no interest on a keyboard if he doesn't have the knowledge to make one, just like happens with the mousepad. Seems like this company is roccat 2.0.

Well, I suspected that the new sensor might be in place, and the reason for delay. For product longevity it makes sense and I'd appreciate to have a better mouse and can wait longer because of this, but if it is true, than it would have been best if the developer himself wouldn't have ceased communication.

As for the Velocity and keyboard, I'd rather wish he invested into making a custom shell for the Aurora, but that probably wouldn't be a good business decision, best to release more OEM products at lower price.

Wouldn't it be still worth-- considering the entire development history and where the mouse is right now-- to go all in, call it the Aurora LE, release a small batch of however many thousand sensors can be bought at this stage, and then proceed the work on the Velocity/Aurora V2 with the 3310.

I mean the mouse is practically complete, and while the unlimited supply of old sensors is no longer available, one would cut the losses and release the Aurora in a limited capacity to have *something* out there. Hell, the demand/supply would be worth it alone.

he wrote that his A3090 was working perfectly already with its firmware.
i don't know if it's reasonable to go through all the sensor adjustment again, with the delay the mouse already has at this time, just for 50 dpi increaments(while it had native 800DPI step and halfed from this 400DPI, which should't feel noticably worse in reality).

Sure, but once you make the mistake and inform people too soon, you should stick with it and not stop in the middle of things. I mean, all it would take is a post "Sry, nothing new yet." every month. Instead bst set a release date, then (supposedly) changed plans and told nobody. Not good.

No, but he basically announced this thing 2 years back. No matter what you post, if you're going to stop posting you should at least say so. Otherwise people will start making assumptions. In general that's not a good thing :)

Can someone please outline what the differences are between the 3090 and 3310 sensors? I don't see the point of using the 3310 even for longevity, the 3090 was perfected and will do well for everyone who will buy this mouse. The 3310 could be worked on later, after this one is released. The delays are a pity because this mouse fit every damn criteria for me. "If it ain't broke why fix it" applies here.

yeah i know, was just wondering whether any one of you were willing to depart from their 3050 specimen in exchange for some.. uh money. :D or would that be breaking the rules in the "testers contract" hehe?

If you are looking to sell your product in Europe, just PM with your contact information. We are a German company and we have partnerships with large e-stores/stores, we also resell on our websites and we have a big end-user database.
good opportunity for you

Story of a friend: "I am Indian I work in America I married a Russian I work with Africans, our customers are Asians, we live next to Mexicans, we spend vacations in New Zealand, my TV is Japanese, our babysitter is Brazilian (hue), our cook is French, my kid dates a Swedish girl." I think he can be French and work for a German company!

There are so many trade agreements between France and Germany nowadays, corporates, businessmen who live around the borders, who work for German/French or German or French companies, or not specially around the borders, also in the big cities, I mean... yeah. Why trolling? é_è

[00:26:33] * nyshak slaps bst around a bit with a large trout
[00:26:35] * nyshak slaps bst around a bit with a large trout
[00:26:37] <_ash> feaJz
[00:26:38] * nyshak slaps bst around a bit with a large trout
[00:26:43] <nyshak> beating a dead horse!
[00:26:45] <nyshak> :D

The fact that nobody was asked to let the coins roll (pre-order and the like) before the mouse is actually released, was the only thing that made me not believe in a Troll, but I'm not too sure now.

Anyway, even if this ends up being a hoax, I don't feel fooled, because I was just waiting passively. Waiting is no expense.

Only problem I am left with is the fact that there is no other mouse with that shape, side buttons and that sensor. G100s, but it has no side buttons, but I need those, because I use them in every game that I play and browsing.

when you're dealign with companies 12 hrs ahead of you, with no oversight of how things work + you're a small fry buying the fraction of the units they likely deal with on a daily basis you're gonna g et shit on quite a bit. if the progress becomes hopeless he'll say so. you can assume there's just nothing to report until then.

Yeah, but if you set an ETA and then not even inform people of it's delay and generally stop communicating with people awaiting your product in any way it's quite obvious people would call it 'dead' sooner or later.

If he hadn't got anything new to say he could at least come online for 15 seconds, type in 'new ETA 2016 cu then' and log off.

Seeing as the mx300 is 3x its usual price (60 or 90 bucks) and there are still a few 100 - 1000 units around. I wonder what the aurora should be rated at price wise, as there are only like 6 - 10 (beta) units around ;P

yea well, was hoping for some reviews after the "beta testing" launch, but there was only 1 review where the author even states he prefers the G100s.. weird, maybe the aurora wasn't as good as people expected. sensor position? performance? who knows.

"If you experience such a thing with it then the problem is on your side." Now that's some steam forums type of response.
There's nothing on my side that can influence the latency of mouse sensor.
Im just sensitive to input lag and have some mice with adns-3060 and 3080 which are instant, g100s is not as reponsive, same as all new mice which push more dpi that sensor's image array can handle efficiently.

Yeah I wasnt correct there, but he was comparing G100s and aurora and preferring "smoother" feel of g100s.

I made it sound a little over exaggerated, its probably noticeable to 5 ppl in the world, maybe around g400 latency, dunno for sure, got weary of plugging mice to compare.
Im just tired of some part of sensor tracking being ruined by dpi race.

So what's the plan: never return to the site and to QL as a mapper, post and do stuff with another nickname and never talk about this, explain why it failed or just come back and pretend it never happened?

people were crying because no ETA, people were crying because no news, people were counting down the fucking days until the mouse THEY WANT is NOT released and now they're jumping up and down "I told you so I told you so I told you so"

yeah I guess that's the only thing you can draw from this, better than nothing, right ?

the guy isn't a total nobody who took pre-orders and ran, he has money invested in this. nobody has infos, but it's so trendy to declare something "dead" like quake or reborn or anything you actually have to WAIT and see what happens

you probably all own several and currently have one you're satisfied with (or you're really shit at picking stuff)

how should I know ? how's that a problem ? it's not some kind of brand new technology revolutionizing how we play video games

you'd think he's selling e-crack the way you're all hanging around here waiting for something, ANYTHING

jamalz come in here with some rumor about a new sensor being used, no quote, no source, nothing -> people all believe him and are up in arms

uh, yeah, ok... granted the situation could have been dealt with had bst came in with some news, but that mob mentality gives you an insight into people's level of desperation for a simple input device (one they already possess)

people's attitude here is typical, just because you MIGHT buy a product he's making in his spare time, dealing with all sorts of issues and industries on the other side of the planet and so just because you could be a client, you feel entitled to go all cynical and impatient from the comfort of your house. what, are you an investor ? are you some sort of CEO asking why he's wasting your time and money on this wild goose chase that is a "perfect mouse" ?

this isn't the customer service, this is one of the (apparently) few forums he posted in to keep people in the loop when he had time. every time he's gone silent, it was because he encountered an unforeseen issue with the mouse/driver and was trying to fix it. now, it's been some time and his ETA (like reporters asking when kobe is coming back from his latest injury, because we NEED to have a set date, he'll come back when he's on the court) has come and gone, so what ? give it some time and see if he comes back, at least a couple of months, what do you have to lose ? a click once a month if you've bookmarked the thread ?

just because he's selling something doesn't mean he owes us anything

and for the usual haters who can't understand how anyone can side with the antichrist : no, I'm not bst in disguise, I won't get a beta sample or a mouse for free and I don't ride his cock

While that is true put yourself in his position. Bst advertised this as the second coming....in 2011, this is about the 15th deadline not met and he just disappears (reads but doesn't write).

I've written the following way too much, but one more doesn't hurt: the market is different from then. Nowadays there are plenty of great mice from logitech and zowie, among others, so buy that instead of waiting yet another year.

yeah but then again this would be the only scenario i could think of, why i would suddenly stop talking to anyone, if i was him. I mean its unlikely that he died away, as he still seems to lock in from time to time, as people reportet. And if it wasn't him, and someone hacked him, why not make a big troll post at least? xd

I recently picked up a Mionix Avior 7000. It is significantly heavier and bulkier than WMO/FK/G100s. Having said that, the sensor performs very well in terms of tracking and max speed. It's hard to tell how much 'smoothing' it has because it is in such a different weight class than the mice I generally prefer. I look forward to seeing the Pixart pmw3310dh implemented in a smaller/lighter shell.

For something that's just like this however I remember posting on the other thread that another company released a mice with the exact same shell and sensor. Was it two years ago? Time flies by when things don't get done.

I-rocks - same shell with avago 3050. Solution ? Buy it and mod = bst gaming mouse. But there is one problem. U cant buy all irocks products even via alliexpres, and i dont know which shop respect shipping to europe

No.
Its like saying buy the g1 and mod it. Just to much work. What PCB u want to put in it? Ninox Aurora would have been awesome for its shell (of course) but also for it's tweaked and optimized firmware. 4000 DPI 3090 variant with (as bst stated) only little smoothing.

Zowie released a refresh of the FK, but if I am not mistaken this is still the 3090. Since the 3310 is supposedly better, maybe we will see a new Zowie product soon. I'd like an AM / FK without a custom lens so that the DPI steps are more common and the tracking speed is higher.