First, I wanted to complement you on your new avatar, http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/image.php?u=27393&dateline=1226026107 it's really sweet. Did you get it from some of your kinfolk in W.Va.? In light of your newfound sensitivity, I was wondering what you thought of these posters being placed on D.C. Metro stations and busses?

Personally, I agree Christmas is becoming a bit too commercial, though I'm not sure an aetheist ought to care. And I thought the black Santa idea was genius, since so many of the residents of our nation's capitol think of Obama as a jovial Santa bearing gifts. What do you think?

Here's a link to the article http://www.myfoxwfld.com/myvoicedc/2008/11/12/humanist-holiday-ads-stir-religious-debate/#more-2250

YardleyLabs

11-16-2008, 05:34 PM

I appreciated the campaign...but then I am a humanist.;)

Hoosier

11-16-2008, 06:13 PM

Looks like hell is gonna be crowded.

K.Bullock

11-16-2008, 08:30 PM

Edwords said the purpose isn’t to argue that God doesn’t exist or change minds about a deity, although “we are trying to plant a seed of rational thought and critical thinking and questioning in people’s minds.”

The group defines humanism as “a progressive philosophy of life that, without theism, affirms our responsibility to lead ethical lives of value to self and humanity.”

Yeah ....whatever. "Edwords said the purpose isn’t to argue that God doesn’t exist or change minds about a deity, although" . What a bunch of B.S. .

These statements always remind when people say. I am not racist ..but. As if their qualification of the opinion they are about to give cannot be defined by it's obvious intent.

Any rational, intelligent person can see what their agenda is. They hate anything that brings other people joy. If they truly felt alone and disenfranchised during the holiday (holy day) season, they should get a cat. Are they putting up anti-ramadan posters to thwart the islamic holy days ....no. Are they protesting the Taoist hungry ghost festival ...no.
Just Christianity and Christianity alone do they have a problem with. Why?

I find it hilarious that these atheists, the same ones that claim there is no God, are so mad at Him. How can you be so angry with someone who isn;t there? I thought atheists and agnostics valued rational thought..

Here is peak into the minds of these Humanist "freethinkers" as defined by their hero and Hitler's, ... Friedrich Nietzsche. It is a paper from Berkeley of all places on the influence of Nietzsche's writing on humanist religion. BTW they hate it when you call their spiel religion. Especially when they are trashing yours.

http://econ161.berkeley.edu/tceh/Nietzsche.html

There was some ground for this appropriation of Nietzsche as one of the originators of the Nazi Weltanschauung. Had not the philosopher thundered against democracy and parliaments, preached the will to power, praised war and proclaimed the coming of the master race and the superman--and in the most telling aphorisms? A Nazi could proudly quote him on almost every conceivable subject, and did. On Christianity: "the one great curse, the one enormous and innermost perversion... I call it the one immortal blemish of mankind.... This Christianity is no more than the typical teaching of the Socialists." On the State, power, and the jungle world of man: "Society has never regarded virtue as anything other than as a means to strength, power, and order. The State [is] unmorality organized... the will to war, to conquest and revenge... Society is not entitled to exist for its own sake but only as a substructure and scaffolding by means of which a select race of beings may elevate themselves to their higher duties... There is no such thing as the right to live, the right to work, or the right to be happy: in this respect man is no different from the meanest worm." (Women, whom Nietzsche never had, he consigned to a distinctly inferior status, as did the Nazis, who decreed that their place was in the kitchen and their chief role in life to beget children for German warriors. Nietzsche put the idea this way: "Man shall be trained for war and woman for the procreation of the warrior. All else is folly." He went further. In Thus Spake Zarathustra he exclaims: "Thou goest to woman? Do not forget thy whip!"...) And he exalted the superman as the beast of prey, "the magnificent blond brute, avidly rampant for spoil and victory."

BTW the movie Golden Compass(which I am sure will be out again soon) was an agnostic humanist response to C.S. Lewis' Narnia. The writer of Golden Compass Philip Pullman is also heavily influenced by Nietzshe. So here again is an example of another quiet movement out to subvert American tradition in particular America's Christian tradition.

Ignorant hypocrites one and all.

Merry Christmas ,
Kevin

YardleyLabs

11-16-2008, 09:02 PM

Yeah ....whatever. "Edwords said the purpose isnít to argue that God doesnít exist or change minds about a deity, although" . What a bunch of B.S. .

These statements always remind when people say. I am not racist ..but. As if their qualification of the opinion they are about to give cannot be defined by it's obvious intent.

Any rational, intelligent person can see what their agenda is. They hate anything that brings other people joy. If they truly felt alone and disenfranchised during the holiday (holy day) season, they should get a cat. Are they putting up anti-ramadan posters to thwart the islamic holy days ....no. Are they protesting the Taoist hungry ghost festival ...no.
Just Christianity and Christianity alone do they have a problem with. Why?

I find it hilarious that these atheists, the same ones that claim there is no God, are so mad at Him. How can you be so angry with someone who isn;t there? I thought atheists and agnostics valued rational thought..

Here is peak into the minds of these Humanist "freethinkers" as defined by their hero and Hitler's, ... Friedrich Nietzsche. It is a paper from Berkeley of all places on the influence of Nietzsche's writing on humanist religion. BTW they hate it when you call their spiel religion. Especially when they are trashing yours.

http://econ161.berkeley.edu/tceh/Nietzsche.html

BTW the movie Golden Compass(which I am sure will be out again soon) was an agnostic humanist response to C.S. Lewis' Narnia. The writer of Golden Compass Philip Pullman is also heavily influenced by Nietzshe. So here again is an example of another quiet movement out to subvert American tradition in particular America's Christian tradition.

Ignorant hypocrites one and all.

Merry Christmas ,
Kevin

Personally, I try not to make too many generalized assumptions about people's religions. I've known and worked with Christians ranging from deeply religious evangelicals to atheists attending Christian churches out of habit. In every group I've met people who were truly loving and joyful and people who were mean and hateful. I can say the same about people I know who are Jews, Hindus, Muslims, and even atheists. Branding someone based on their label is the worst form of prejudice because it prevents you from ever discovering what the person is actually like. In my church, you are as likely to hear readings from the Koran or the Vedas as from the Bible. However, I have never once heard the readings of Nietzsche. For what it's worth, about 1/3 of the members of my church identify themselves as Christian, 1/4 identify themselves as atheist or agnostic, and the rest identify themselves with a wide range of differing religious traditions.

K.Bullock

11-16-2008, 10:25 PM

Personally, I try not to make too many generalized assumptions about people's religions. I've known and worked with Christians ranging from deeply religious evangelicals to atheists attending Christian churches out of habit.

Cool, so then it would be a big deal if I started putting posters up about how humanism played a role in Hitler's regime. And is responsible for one of the most depraved atrocities of the 20th century. ...see where I am going?

In every group I've met people who were truly loving and joyful and people who were mean and hateful. I can say the same about people I know who are Jews, Hindus, Muslims, and even atheists. Branding someone based on their label is the worst form of prejudice because it prevents you from ever discovering what the person is actually like.

Agreed soo... what's up with the posters? Why would you support singling out a group based on a broad generalization? Why are our symbols and traditions so offensive?

In my church, you are as likely to hear readings from the Koran or the Vedas as from the Bible. However, I have never once heard the readings of Nietzsche. For what it's worth, about 1/3 of the members of my church identify themselves as Christian, 1/4 identify themselves as atheist or agnostic, and the rest identify themselves with a wide range of differing religious traditions.

You have that right, and I would defend your right to practice your religion in peace. That's your business. ....right?

So why is it acceptable to attack Christians?

*unrelated i think...but still out of curiosity. Are Unitarians Monotheistic?
And if so , by Unitarian Universalist, does that mean that you see One God in all religions? Does that explain the use of several holy books in your church?

*edit Today at 07:33 AM. I beat you to it* :)
To quote the Rev. Marta Flanagan, "We uphold the free search for truth. We will not be bound by a statement of belief. We do not ask anyone to subscribe to a creed. We say ours is a non-creedal religion. Ours is a free faith."

Although we uphold shared principles, individual Unitarian Universalists have varied beliefs about everything from scripture to rituals to God.

likely to hear readings from the Koran or the Vedas

Hmm ...so who kills the Halal beef? And do they come back as a beef ? If so, is it possible that they knew the person that they are now eating as halal beef? If this takes off, our war with terror could be over.;) just kidding it is getting late.

Uncle Bill

11-17-2008, 11:25 AM

There was a time I wore a shirt that said " GOD IS DEAD"...Nietzsche Under which it said "Nietzsche is dead"...GOD Of couse the later was confirmed in 1900.

BTW Jeff. Are you serious in calling what you attend a church? Sounds more likely to be a cult gathering. But then, whatever gets a tax exemption.....

UB

Buzz

11-17-2008, 12:23 PM

I think my signature line applies here.

Marvin S

11-17-2008, 01:22 PM

I think my signature line applies here.

While Jon Stewart is funny - to a point - he does not wear well - so would not use something he said as the standard. But I will try to present an analogy.

Everyone's probably somewhat familiar with the BELL CURVE. The peak is the center of everyone's knowledge. You notice it is not a sharp peak but is more gradual with a known high center.

Now comes the good part - those to the left of that peak on the BELL CURVE are considered inferior regarding cognizant abilities & those to the right of that peak are considered superior regarding cognizant abilities. While many of the forum posters fall into that gradual transition on either side there are also those who are far below that either side.

That's the analogy? The left other than Jeff have very little original posting, instead preferring to rely on canned responses from uninformed sources while the right actually do respond with original thought. Disclaimer: I don't always agree with what is posted by the right but it is original and indicates a thought process.

Everyone have a nice day! It looks like the prevailing sentiment by the POTUS elect (left side of the BC) is to bail the automakers & the unions out for their looting of the American consumer. I would have preferred to see bankruptcy declared. The airlines did it & are operating fairly well now in a very volatile market place.

achiro

11-17-2008, 01:29 PM

While Jon Stewart is funny - to a point - he does not wear well - so would not use something he said as the standard. But I will try to present an analogy.

Everyone's probably somewhat familiar with the BELL CURVE. The peak is the center of everyone's knowledge. You notice it is not a sharp peak but is more gradual with a known high center.

Now comes the good part - those to the left of that peak on the BELL CURVE are considered inferior regarding cognizant abilities & those to the right of that peak are considered superior regarding cognizant abilities. While many of the forum posters fall into that gradual transition on either side there are also those who are far below that either side.

That's the analogy? The left other than Jeff have very little original posting, instead preferring to rely on canned responses from uninformed sources while the right actually do respond with original thought. Disclaimer: I don't always agree with what is posted by the right but it is original and indicates a thought process.

Everyone have a nice day! It looks like the prevailing sentiment by the POTUS elect (left side of the BC) is to bail the automakers & the unions out for their looting of the American consumer. I would have preferred to see bankruptcy declared. The airlines did it & are operating fairly well now in a very volatile market place.
You may have a point there Marvin. A good example is Hannity and Colmes. The libz will hammer Fox as bias using Hannity as an example, when someone says there is a counter named Colmes on the same show, they have some sort of negative comment toward him as if he is inferior somehow at his job. The funny part is that Colmes delivers the same talking points that we hear from all of the dims, including the ones I see posted on these, and many other, forums. :confused:

Hoosier

11-17-2008, 03:47 PM

So which side of the curve do you think the acorn folks were going after? The funny thing is blacks consistently score 10 to 15 points lower on IQ tests and any effort to find out why is shot down as racism. It's common knowledge that the first step in solving a problem is identifying the problem. I believe keeping a group of people thinking they can't make it without government help is racism in its purest form. You can't convince people that some external force is keeping them down and then expect them to work their way out of it. Liberals are the racists. My take on The Bell Curve.

Tremayne
\

K.Bullock

11-17-2008, 04:38 PM

So which side of the curve do you think the acorn folks were going after? The funny thing is blacks consistently score 10 to 15 points lower on IQ tests and any effort to find out why is shot down as racism. It's common knowledge that the first step in solving a problem is identifying the problem. I believe keeping a group of people thinking they can't make it without government help is racism in its purest form. You can't convince people that some external force is keeping them down and then expect them to work their way out of it. Liberals are the racists. My take on The Bell Curve.

Tremayne
\
Actually the reasons blacks continue to score lower is known. It is because they predominantly inhabit the poverty stricken zones of our cities.
Besides ill equipped schools and a sub-standard learning environments, have you ever tried studying on an empty belly? How about walking home from school past a spot where someone was shot last week. Throw in drugs, pregnancy rates and everything else that comes along with poverty and it is a wonder anyone from a minority school district ever succeeds.

Your allusion to their mental capacity is incorrect. Poverty precludes these kids from sharing in the same cultural experiences and norms that our kids take for granted. The tests for I.Q. and proficiency sometimes include things that these kids have not been exposed too.

BTW what are you basing that number on? I couldn't find it.

Edit* Reading back through the thread what does what you are posting have to do with anything anyway? You just felt like asserting your "superior intellect" against disadvantaged kids today?

Steve Amrein

11-17-2008, 05:04 PM

Actually the reasons blacks continue to score lower is known. It is because they predominantly inhabit the poverty stricken zones of our cities.
Besides ill equipped schools and a sub-standard learning environments, have you ever tried studying on an empty belly? How about walking home from school past a spot where someone was shot last week. Throw in drugs, pregnancy rates and everything else that comes along with poverty and it is a wonder anyone from a minority school district ever succeeds.

Your allusion to their mental capacity is incorrect. Poverty precludes these kids from sharing in the same cultural experiences and norms that our kids take for granted. The tests for I.Q. and proficiency sometimes include things that these kids have not been exposed too.

BTW what are you basing that number on? I couldn't find it.

Edit* Reading back through the thread what does what you are posting have to do with anything anyway? You just felt like asserting your "superior intellect" against disadvantaged kids today?

If you were in a situation like that would you not spend every minute trying to get away from or out of it ??
BTW our inner city school kids get breakfast and lunch on the state. To bad you cant use school vouchers and get into a decent school. BTW I know a inner city school principal and over 90% of his time is spent on security and behavior problems of non participating parent(s). If you also use statictics it likely safer in Iraq, Iran and Afganistan than alot of inner cities. I think our far town may have 1st place in murder rates locked up for the second year in a row.

K.Bullock

11-17-2008, 05:16 PM

If you were in a situation like that would you not spend every minute trying to get away from or out of it ??
BTW our inner city school kids get breakfast and lunch on the state. To bad you cant use school vouchers and get into a decent school. BTW I know a inner city school principal and over 90% of his time is spent on security and behavior problems of non participating parent(s). If you also use statictics it likely safer in Iraq, Iran and Afganistan than alot of inner cities. I think our far town may have 1st place in murder rates locked up for the second year in a row.

Again you answered your own question as to why test scores are lower.

If you were in a situation like that would you not spend every minute trying to get away from or out of it ??

When you were a kid could you just up and leave? You were talking about kids scores right? Try to think a little before posting.

And again what does this have to do with the topic?

YardleyLabs

11-17-2008, 05:31 PM

Cool, so then it would be a big deal if I started putting posters up about how humanism played a role in Hitler's regime. And is responsible for one of the most depraved atrocities of the 20th century. ...see where I am going?

Agreed soo... what's up with the posters? Why would you support singling out a group based on a broad generalization? Why are our symbols and traditions so offensive?

I am hard pressed to understand what part of either the poster or the accompanying story represents an attack on Christianity. The poster says "Why believe in God. Be Good for Goodness Sake". I don't see that as an attack.

Personally I am a non-theist. My belief is not an attack on Christianity or any other theist religion, it is simply my belief. Stating my belief publicly is no more an attack on Christianity than your stating a belief in God would be an attack on my beliefs. With respect to Nazi Germany, I believe you will find that most of the Nazi hierarchy attended Christian churches and most of the churches either supported or failed to challenge Nazism. That does not mean that those religions support Nazism, only that believers in any faith are ultimately human and can do very stupid and sometimes evil things.

With respect to the "symbol" of Christmas, that has been secularized for more than a century. It is without doubt one of the two favorite holidays in my extended family of Christians and non-Christians (the second being Thanksgiving).

You have that right, and I would defend your right to practice your religion in peace. That's your business. ....right?

So why is it acceptable to attack Christians?

*unrelated i think...but still out of curiosity. Are Unitarians Monotheistic?
And if so , by Unitarian Universalist, does that mean that you see One God in all religions? Does that explain the use of several holy books in your church?

Unitarianism was historically monotheistic and rejected the notion of Jesus as a manifestation of God as a violation of that monotheism. Universalism was historically a Christian religion that believed (to simplify greatly) that God was simply too good to condemn anyone to hell. Both churches evolved in parallel ways and merged in 1961. Today the Unitarian-Universalist church expresses no creed. Rather it focuses on a shared set of principles:
[From the UUA Website]
"
There are seven principles which Unitarian Universalist congregations affirm and promote:
The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part."Members of UU churches have many beliefs. These are viewed as individual beliefs that may or may not be right for all. Writings from different religious traditions are read because each religion is viewed as an effort to find meaning in life and as such contains some inherent truth. Most UU's would reject the notion of any one religion being "correct" while the others are "incorrect".

As I noted before, I am a non-theist. I would not generally call myself an atheist. For the most part, I think that belief (or non-belief) in God is irrelevant. What counts is how you live the life you have been given. If you live a good, caring, charitable and ethical life, then in my mind you are a good person. If there were a God capable of creating all the miracles that envelope our lives every day, I cannot imagine that God condemning such a good person regardless of that person's beliefs. In the same manner, if you live a life of selfishness, intolerance, and cruelty to others, I cannot imagine a God that would not condemn that life regardless of the individual's beliefs.

However, my personal beliefs are just that. Other members of my church may or may not share them. That does not affect our common commitments which include, for me, going to church in a few more minutes where I will tutor homeless children for the evening as I have for the last five years. At least half the tutors there will be high school students, college students, and other adults who come from throughout the area and are not affiliated with our church. As I have for years, I will also distribute portraits that I have taken of these kids so they can take them "home" (typically a shelter, a motel, or other temporary housing) to their parents. I believe that it's important for these kids, as with any others, to know that they are beautiful.

http://jeffgoodwin.com/homeless/david.jpg

BTW Jeff. Are you serious in calling what you attend a church? Sounds more likely to be a cult gathering. .....

UB
Yes, UB, I am very serious, but that doesn't mean I can't have a sense of humor. If what I belong to is a cult, it is one that also claims as members many of our nation's founding fathers, and one that has been around for as long as Christianity.

Steve Amrein

11-17-2008, 05:31 PM

Ahhh so its ok to sleep in class or not study I see it someone elses fault.

Marvin S

11-17-2008, 05:58 PM

So which side of the curve do you think the acorn folks were going after? The funny thing is blacks consistently score 10 to 15 points lower on IQ tests and any effort to find out why is shot down as racism. It's common knowledge that the first step in solving a problem is identifying the problem. I believe keeping a group of people thinking they can't make it without government help is racism in its purest form. You can't convince people that some external force is keeping them down and then expect them to work their way out of it. Liberals are the racists. My take on The Bell Curve.

Tremayne
\

The Bell Curve was a study of poor white trash in general because the population studied was generally made up of those people. It was not a study of any race.

While I am a fiscal conservative, I am also an individual that believes everyone deserves a fighting chance to be the best they can be. The welfare mentality & the mentality of government schools has created a monster. Many lack the necessary credentials to determine correct & wrong, just witness the bailout mentality of our politicians. GWB started it, now the donkeys are going to carry it to an art form.

30+ years ago I was on a School Board in a district experiencing major growing pains with a very small tax base to draw upon. When looking at sources of revenue to accomodate students I suggested in open forum that the district look at charging some sort of impact fee to help us through those times. The press grabbed that, the Dems of which I was not one turned it into an art form. Every government agency charged a substantial fee to cover schools, roads. water, sewer, parks, etc. Housing was wonderful, & there was no end in sight. Which by itself would be not a bad deal if it were invested in infrastructure, but it is invested in non value items like large salary increases & cadillac benefits. & now they are whining because their goose that laid the Golden Eggs is dead. Isn't that too bad?

But back to race, I know & admire the public serving lifestyle of many in this world irregardless of race. These people are not necessarily in public service (an oxymoron), but come from all walks. They are not necessarily individuals of perceived stature, many are ordinary folks like I believe myself to be. I know there are a lot of bigots out there, but that's their issue, I'm not in that camp.

Hoosier

11-17-2008, 06:20 PM

Actually the reasons blacks continue to score lower is known. It is because they predominantly inhabit the poverty stricken zones of our cities.
Besides ill equipped schools and a sub-standard learning environments, have you ever tried studying on an empty belly? How about walking home from school past a spot where someone was shot last week. Throw in drugs, pregnancy rates and everything else that comes along with poverty and it is a wonder anyone from a minority school district ever succeeds.

Your allusion to their mental capacity is incorrect. Poverty precludes these kids from sharing in the same cultural experiences and norms that our kids take for granted. The tests for I.Q. and proficiency sometimes include things that these kids have not been exposed too.

BTW what are you basing that number on? I couldn't find it.

Edit* Reading back through the thread what does what you are posting have to do with anything anyway? You just felt like asserting your "superior intellect" against disadvantaged kids today?

I think I know a hell of a lot more about poverty then you'll ever know. I was raised in a shack out behind a church. When we moved out they fixed it up and turned into a storage shed. Every winter the water would freeze up, and we would carry what we needed from neighbors houses. I went hungry a lot. After paying rent on that shack my mother would have about $16 a month to buy cloths, toiletries,ect. My dad left her when she was pregnant with me, and never helped one bit, and was never to be herd from again. The house had a junk yard on one side on one side and a dumpster service on the other. No one in my family ever talked to us about the importance of education or hard work. In our neighborhood the first few days of the month was party time. The people called the 1st day of the month taco day. If you walked around the neighborhood on the first 5 or 6 days of the month all the adults were drunk, stoned,ect. On about the 10th they were at your door trying to sell you the meat they had bought earlier in the month or their food stamps for .50 cents on the Dollar. My friends sold drugs in the 5th grade sometimes to their parents. I qualified for free lunch at school, but after about 4th or 5th grade was to embarrassed to take it.
I also know what it's like to work my way out of that crap. I started stocking sheetrock after school when I was in 10th grade. This was for $3.00 an hour when minimum wage was $3.35. This was for an uncle. He then gave me a job hanging drywall for the same wage. Once I learned enough to go out on my own I did. Once I started making descent money by running my ass off 12 to 15 hours a day. My wife started collage after 7 years out of high school, and got an electrical engineering degree. She was also raised poor with no help from family. She now manages around 35 engineers for a medical devices company.
To answer your question I got my info from data from a study by Harvard psychologist Arthur Jensen. This was also a discussion we had in psychology class about The Bell Curve, and how when you bring it up your a labeled a racist. To be honest I brought it up to test that and see how long it would take for someone to jump down my throat

Tremayne

By the way the Jenen also did a study where Inuet (spelling?) people out scored whites on IQ tests and no one complained about that.

Captain Mike D

11-17-2008, 06:48 PM

It's common knowledge that the first step in solving a problem is identifying the problem. I believe keeping a group of people thinking they can't make it without government help is racism in its purest form. You can't convince people that some external force is keeping them down and then expect them to work their way out of it. Liberals are the racists. My take on The Bell Curve.

Tremayne
\

And that right there is the absolute truth!!

Steve Amrein

11-17-2008, 06:54 PM

Coshocton, OH

Demagraphics

As of the census[4] of 2000, there were 36,655 people, 14,356 households, and 10,164 families residing in the county. The population density was 65 people per square mile (25/km≤). There were 16,107 housing units at an average density of 29 per square mile (11/km≤). The racial makeup of the county was 97.35% White, 1.09% Black or African American, 0.17% Native American, 0.32% Asian, 0.03% Pacific Islander, 0.20% from other races, and 0.84% from two or more races. 0.59% of the population were Hispanic or Latino of any race. 29.4% were of German, 23.4% American, 11.6% English and 9.3% Irish ancestry according to Census 2000. 93.9% spoke English, 2.4% German and 1.5% Pennsylvania Dutch as their first language.

Certainly a hotbed of diversity I see how actually living in a urban setting could give one insight of the effects of dealing with urban living.

John Kelder

11-17-2008, 07:20 PM

Back to the original post , Reminton has the only avatar with birds in it that aren't in a dogs mouth or about to get shot . Isn't that just wrong ?

Hoosier

11-17-2008, 07:24 PM

You know he could have had flying penises.

Tatyana

11-17-2008, 07:47 PM

Besides ill equipped schools and a sub-standard learning environments, have you ever tried studying on an empty belly?

Yep, but instead of blaming my environment for the problems, I actually studied hard. Plus, mom and dad weren't stupid either and passed along some good genes.

Sometimes I find it hard to believe I came from there. (Bad pic, as I was really jet lagged).

K.Bullock

11-17-2008, 08:46 PM

I think I know a hell of a lot more about poverty then you'll ever know. I was raised in a shack out behind a church. When we moved out they fixed it up and turned into a storage shed. Every winter the water would freeze up, and we would carry what we needed from neighbors houses. I went hungry a lot. After paying rent on that shack my mother would have about $16 a month to buy cloths, toiletries,ect. My dad left her when she was pregnant with me, and never helped one bit, and was never to be herd from again. The house had a junk yard on one side on one side and a dumpster service on the other. No one in my family ever talked to us about the importance of education or hard work. In our neighborhood the first few days of the month was party time. The people called the 1st day of the month taco day. If you walked around the neighborhood on the first 5 or 6 days of the month all the adults were drunk, stoned,ect. On about the 10th they were at your door trying to sell you the meat they had bought earlier in the month or their food stamps for .50 cents on the Dollar. My friends sold drugs in the 5th grade sometimes to their parents. I qualified for free lunch at school, but after about 4th or 5th grade was to embarrassed to take it.
I also know what it's like to work my way out of that crap. I started stocking sheetrock after school when I was in 10th grade. This was for $3.00 an hour when minimum wage was $3.35. This was for an uncle. He then gave me a job hanging drywall for the same wage. Once I learned enough to go out on my own I did. Once I started making descent money by running my ass off 12 to 15 hours a day. My wife started collage after 7 years out of high school, and got an electrical engineering degree. She was also raised poor with no help from family. She now manages around 35 engineers for a medical devices company.
To answer your question I got my info from data from a study by Harvard psychologist Arthur Jensen. This was also a discussion we had in psychology class about The Bell Curve, and how when you bring it up your a labeled a racist. To be honest I brought it up to test that and see how long it would take for someone to jump down my throat

Tremayne

By the way the Jenen also did a study where Inuet (spelling?) people out scored whites on IQ tests and no one complained about that.
If you had a point I must have missed it somewhere ...sorry.

K.Bullock

11-17-2008, 08:57 PM

Coshocton, OH

Demographics

As of the census[4] of 2000, there were 36,655 people, 14,356 households, and 10,164 families residing in the county. The population density was 65 people per square mile (25/km≤). There were 16,107 housing units at an average density of 29 per square mile (11/km≤). The racial makeup of the county was 97.35% White, 1.09% Black or African American, 0.17% Native American, 0.32% Asian, 0.03% Pacific Islander, 0.20% from other races, and 0.84% from two or more races. 0.59% of the population were Hispanic or Latino of any race. 29.4% were of German, 23.4% American, 11.6% English and 9.3% Irish ancestry according to Census 2000. 93.9% spoke English, 2.4% German and 1.5% Pennsylvania Dutch as their first language.

Certainly a hotbed of diversity I see how actually living in a urban setting could give one insight of the effects of dealing with urban living.

Racial diversity has little to do with poverty. This is Appalachia. You didn't happen to catch the mean household income did ya? And by the way the test scores as compared to more affluent areas of the state ...you guessed it ....lower, and the kids are mostly white. Again you have made an excellent point. :)

K.Bullock

11-17-2008, 09:30 PM

I am hard pressed to understand what part of either the poster or the accompanying story represents an attack on Christianity. The poster says "Why believe in God. Be Good for Goodness Sake". I don't see that as an attack.[/QUOTE]

To me it is one of a hundred this time of year. it is a CHRISTmas poster...

Personally I am a non-theist. My belief is not an attack on Christianity or any other theist religion, it is simply my belief. Stating my belief publicly is no more an attack on Christianity than your stating a belief in God would be an attack on my beliefs. With respect to Nazi Germany, I believe you will find that most of the Nazi hierarchy attended Christian churches and most of the churches either supported or failed to challenge Nazism. That does not mean that those religions support Nazism, only that believers in any faith are ultimately human and can do very stupid and sometimes evil things.
In their defense ...they would be shot if they were openly hostile to Nazism as it was, many were executed for secretly resisting.

With respect to the "symbol" of Christmas, that has been secularized for more than a century. It is without doubt one of the two favorite holidays in my extended family of Christians and non-Christians (the second being Thanksgiving).

Can't argue much there, commercialized is more like it though.

Unitarianism was historically monotheistic and rejected the notion of Jesus as a manifestation of God as a violation of that monotheism. Universalism was historically a Christian religion that believed (to simplify greatly) that God was simply too good to condemn anyone to hell. Both churches evolved in parallel ways and merged in 1961. Today the Unitarian-Universalist church expresses no creed. Rather it focuses on a shared set of principles:
[From the UUA Website]
"
There are seven principles which Unitarian Universalist congregations affirm and promote:
The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part."Members of UU churches have many beliefs. These are viewed as individual beliefs that may or may not be right for all. Writings from different religious traditions are read because each religion is viewed as an effort to find meaning in life and as such contains some inherent truth. Most UU's would reject the notion of any one religion being "correct" while the others are "incorrect".

As I noted before, I am a non-theist. I would not generally call myself an atheist. For the most part, I think that belief (or non-belief) in God is irrelevant. What counts is how you live the life you have been given. If you live a good, caring, charitable and ethical life, then in my mind you are a good person. If there were a God capable of creating all the miracles that envelope our lives every day, I cannot imagine that God condemning such a good person regardless of that person's beliefs. In the same manner, if you live a life of selfishness, intolerance, and cruelty to others, I cannot imagine a God that would not condemn that life regardless of the individual's beliefs.

However, my personal beliefs are just that. Other members of my church may or may not share them. That does not affect our common commitments which include, for me, going to church in a few more minutes where I will tutor homeless children for the evening as I have for the last five years. At least half the tutors there will be high school students, college students, and other adults who come from throughout the area and are not affiliated with our church. As I have for years, I will also distribute portraits that I have taken of these kids so they can take them "home" (typically a shelter, a motel, or other temporary housing) to their parents. I believe that it's important for these kids, as with any others, to know that they are beautiful.

Sometimes I find it hard to believe I came from there. (Bad pic, as I was really jet lagged).

Great story. None of us have any excuse.

K.Bullock

11-17-2008, 11:16 PM

Learning with an empty belly. Been there, done that. Am stronger for it. Wouldn't change a thing. Didn't whine about it.
I guess that is what I am missing ..just who exactly is whining about it?

Julie R.

11-17-2008, 11:30 PM

Actually the reasons blacks continue to score lower is known. It is because they predominantly inhabit the poverty stricken zones of our cities.
Besides ill equipped schools and a sub-standard learning environments, have you ever tried studying on an empty belly? How about walking home from school past a spot where someone was shot last week. Throw in drugs, pregnancy rates and everything else that comes along with poverty and it is a wonder anyone from a minority school district ever succeeds.

Your allusion to their mental capacity is incorrect. Poverty precludes these kids from sharing in the same cultural experiences and norms that our kids take for granted. The tests for I.Q. and proficiency sometimes include things that these kids have not been exposed too.

BTW what are you basing that number on? I couldn't find it.

Edit* Reading back through the thread what does what you are posting have to do with anything anyway? You just felt like asserting your "superior intellect" against disadvantaged kids today?

Actually Hoosier is correct; there have been several studies that have shown that on average blacks do test lower on IQ tests than whites across the board. Here is a link to one http://www.slate.com/id/2178122/entry/2178123/

But if you choose to fight the evidence, here's what you're up against. Among white Americans, the average IQ, as of a decade or so ago, was 103. Among Asian-Americans, it was 106. Among Jewish Americans, it was 113. Among Latino Americans, it was 89. Among African-Americans, it was 85. Around the world, studies find the same general pattern: whites 100, East Asians 106, sub-Sarahan Africans 70. One IQ table shows 113 in Hong Kong, 110 in Japan, and 100 in Britain. White populations in Australia, Canada, Europe, New Zealand, South Africa, and the United States score closer to one another than to the worldwide black average. It's been that way for at least a century.

Now bear in mind this is an article written in Slate which is hardly a bastion of conservative thinking.

...head measurement had been discredited as Eurocentric pseudoscience. In fact, it's been bolstered by MRI. On average, Asian-American kids have bigger brains than white American kids, who in turn have bigger brains than black American kids. This is true even though the order of body size and weight runs in the other direction. The pattern holds true throughout the world and persists at death, as measured by brain weight.

Finally, I do see the point Hoosier was trying to make, which is that no one race has a monopoly on poverty and disadvantage. Maybe, instead of dismissing as racist such studies, we should explore more and find out why traditional teaching methods are such abject failures on a subset of society.

Maybe big college teacher Remington can chime in with some words of wisdom....

K.Bullock

11-18-2008, 01:12 AM

Actually Hoosier is correct; there have been several studies that have shown that on average blacks do test lower on IQ tests than whites across the board. Here is a link to one http://www.slate.com/id/2178122/entry/2178123/

You said several ...I don't see one. Did you read the article you linked to? It was debunked by a whole barrel of scientists..
And that was a blog ... A blog.
Under "works cited" where would you put that?

Now bear in mind this is an article written in Slate which is hardly a bastion of conservative thinking.
oh ok

Finally, I do see the point Hoosier was trying to make, which is that no one race has a monopoly on poverty and disadvantage. Maybe, instead of dismissing as racist such studies, we should explore more and find out why traditional teaching methods are such abject failures on a subset of society.

Maybe big college teacher Remington can chime in with some words of wisdom....

Stick a fork in this one I am done. Thanks

Hoosier

11-18-2008, 10:46 AM

The reason I brought up The Bell Curve is this. I was talking to a friend who is a psychology professor at a local collage. We were talking about race relations and he told me that it's such a hot issue you can't even discuss the numbers. He has taught straight out of the text, and been accused of racism. The Bell Curve book was written using data from research by Arthur Jensen. The gap in scores narrows some in similar economic conditions but doesn't go away. To ignore the problem and call anyone who wants to address it ignorant or racist does nothing to solve it. Reactions like that only make the problems worse. I'm not saying I'm genetically superior to anyone. What I am saying is if you can't even discuss it the problem will remain along with the gap in income and social class. We've been trained to immediately jump on anyone with a view other then what's PC.

And your right this probably was off subject.

Hugs and Kisses
Tremayne

YardleyLabs

11-18-2008, 11:15 AM

The reason I brought up The Bell Curve is this. I was talking to a friend who is a psychology professor at a local collage. We were talking about race relations and he told me that it's such a hot issue you can't even discuss the numbers. He has taught straight out of the text, and been accused of racism. The Bell Curve book was written using data from research by Arthur Jensen. The gap in scores narrows some in similar economic conditions but doesn't go away. To ignore the problem and call anyone who wants to address it ignorant or racist does nothing to solve it. Reactions like that only make the problems worse. I'm not saying I'm genetically superior to anyone. What I am saying is if you can't even discuss it the problem will remain along with the gap in income and social class. We've been trained to immediately jump on anyone with a view other then what's PC.

And your right this probably was off subject.

Hugs and Kisses
Tremayne

The reality is that this debate has been around for a long time. One is stuck with a few facts. First, no one has ever figured out good ways to differentiate between the effects of biology (nature) and the effects of environment (nurture). Second, the variations within groupings are much greater than the variations between groupings. Third, differences in IQ test performance are of limited value in explaining differences in ultimate economic performance.

The thing best predicted by IQ testing is performance on similar tests, not performance in life or the economy. On balance, I think the question is off topic. More importantly, it is irrelevant for almost any discussion that is not purely academic. I see little to suggest that white males, who are clearly stupider than white females and Asians of any sex (based on IQ tests), have suffered from their lack of brain power.;-)

Hoosier

11-18-2008, 12:05 PM

If the Christian coalition put up signs saying "Why believe in Allah" we wouldn't hear the end of it. It would be beaten to death in the media, and by our liberal friends as radical Christian fundamentalist stepping on poor minorities. We should be more accepting,blah, blah, blah. It's this double standard that's gotten old. I think you have to be evil to put something like that up.

YardleyLabs

11-18-2008, 06:30 PM

If the Christian coalition put up signs saying "Why believe in Allah" we wouldn't hear the end of it. It would be beaten to death in the media, and by our liberal friends as radical Christian fundamentalist stepping on poor minorities. We should be more accepting,blah, blah, blah. It's this double standard that's gotten old. I think you have to be evil to put something like that up.

With all respect, I see more commercials for Jesus than I do for toothpaste and breakfast cereals combined. Half (a slight exaggeration) of those tell me I will damned for eternity if I don't accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior. The advertisement cited at the beginning of this thread is certainly less hostile and infinitely less likely to be seen than what I see daily. In fact, it's ironic that I never would have heard of this ad without this forum and I suspect that the poster wouldn't have seen it without republication by someone else.

Marvin S

11-18-2008, 07:11 PM

The reality is that this debate has been around for a long time. One is stuck with a few facts. First, no one has ever figured out good ways to differentiate between the effects of biology (nature) and the effects of environment (nurture). Second, the variations within groupings are much greater than the variations between groupings. Third, differences in IQ test performance are of limited value in explaining differences in ultimate economic performance.

The thing best predicted by IQ testing is performance on similar tests, not performance in life or the economy. On balance, I think the question is off topic. More importantly, it is irrelevant for almost any discussion that is not purely academic. I see little to suggest that white males, who are clearly stupider than white females and Asians of any sex (based on IQ tests), have suffered from their lack of brain power.;-)

I read this & I read it again & couldn't believe you would say this. The ;-) does not validate nor excuse your last statement, nor the statements preceding.

In my working career in private industry I worked with 2 separate demographic groups: Underground Miners & a demographic that consisted of some of the better Engineering Graduates of accredited universities. There is a major difference in case you missed it. Smarter people make smarter choices, it is only in government where the standards are low that someome can get by faking it.

What I have found is all groups are wired differently. You might read the study on autism published a few months ago in Scientific American. It's very interesting.

Hoosier

11-18-2008, 07:17 PM

With all respect, I see more commercials for Jesus than I do for toothpaste and breakfast cereals combined. Half (a slight exaggeration) of those tell me I will damned for eternity if I don't accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior. The advertisement cited at the beginning of this thread is certainly less hostile and infinitely less likely to be seen than what I see daily. In fact, it's ironic that I never would have heard of this ad without this forum and I suspect that the poster wouldn't have seen it without republication by someone else.

I doubt those adds throw an insult at another religion before they try to recruit you.

Tatyana

11-18-2008, 07:25 PM

What I have found is all groups are wired differently. You might read the study on autism published a few months ago in Scientific American. It's very interesting.

I would also highly recommend Chapter 5 of Steven Leavitt's Freakonomics (though the whole book is wonderful and worth reading).

YardleyLabs

11-18-2008, 07:36 PM

I doubt those adds throw an insult at another religion before they try to recruit you.

I'm missing the insult. The ad says "Why believe in a god? Be good for goodness' sake." How is that more hostile than "The end is near. Accept Jesus as your savior or be damned. Eternity lasts forever."

YardleyLabs

11-18-2008, 08:05 PM

I read this & I read it again & couldn't believe you would say this. The ;-) does not validate nor excuse your last statement, nor the statements preceding.

In my working career in private industry I worked with 2 separate demographic groups: Underground Miners & a demographic that consisted of some of the better Engineering Graduates of accredited universities. There is a major difference in case you missed it. Smarter people make smarter choices, it is only in government where the standards are low that someome can get by faking it.

What I have found is all groups are wired differently. You might read the study on autism published a few months ago in Scientific American. It's very interesting.

Marvin,

I'm not sure what parts of my statement you are questioning or the basis of your questions. Wikepedia notes that:

"The American Psychological Association (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Psychological_Association)'s report Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ#cite_note-Neisser95-14) states that IQ scores account for about one-fourth of the social status variance and one-sixth of the income variance. Statistical controls for parental SES eliminate about a quarter of this predictive power. Psychometric intelligence appears as only one of a great many factors that influence social outcomes."

By virtue of the luck of my birth, my schooling, and my employment, I have spent most of my life in environments where IQ's that were less than 3 standard deviations above average were considered to be a little slow. However, the smartest and most successful boss I ever worked for barely made it through a 4th rate college and worked hard to do it. What he had was drive and great judgment and that trumped raw intelligence every day.

At 14 he worked part time emptying bed pans. At age 21, with his IQ of about 115, he was CEO and part owner of a NYSE $400 million temporary staffing company at a time when that qualified as Fortune 500. He sold that and bought a bankrupt environmental assessment laboratory that he turned into one of the top ten engineering consulting companies in the world before selling it to retire at the age of 40. He surrounded himself with smart people and I was happy to be one of them. Most of us understood completely why he was boss. Two of the smartest arranged the buyout that made my boss very wealthy. The two geniuses who engineered the takeover drove the company into bankruptcy within a year.

Brains take many forms. IQ is just one of them and not necessarily the most important.

Fire N Ice

11-18-2008, 09:33 PM

Hi everyone, I've read this entire thread. I don't want to particularly comment on the religious aspect but the leaning of the conversation about race and such. I was wondering how you all felt about a question I had. This past presidential election voters by percentage were whites 55% for McCain, whites 45% for Obama. Blacks 95% for Obama %5 for McCain. Without getting into the fact that Blacks are predominately registered as Democrats lets present a different scenario. Lets say this election involved the last Democraticlly popular Bill Clinton versus Obama. My contention is that the vote would be virtual identical as far as the black vote. Thus leading to ask who is more racist. My belief is that this country will never be considered unracist when/if the black vote under those cicumstances were split equally as the white vote was for McCain. Just curiuos how you all felt.
Not looking for a fight just possible viewpoints.

John Kelder

11-19-2008, 07:31 AM

Hi everyone, I've read this entire thread. I don't want to particularly comment on the religious aspect but the leaning of the conversation about race and such. I was wondering how you all felt about a question I had. This past presidential election voters by percentage were whites 55% for McCain, whites 45% for Obama. Blacks 95% for Obama %5 for McCain. Without getting into the fact that Blacks are predominately registered as Democrats lets present a different scenario. Lets say this election involved the last Democraticlly popular Bill Clinton versus Obama. My contention is that the vote would be virtual identical as far as the black vote. Thus leading to ask who is more racist. My belief is that this country will never be considered unracist when/if the black vote under those cicumstances were split equally as the white vote was for McCain. Just curiuos how you all felt.
Not looking for a fight just possible viewpoints.

Your observation is correct.

Hoosier

11-19-2008, 11:21 PM

Hi everyone, I've read this entire thread. I don't want to particularly comment on the religious aspect but the leaning of the conversation about race and such. I was wondering how you all felt about a question I had. This past presidential election voters by percentage were whites 55% for McCain, whites 45% for Obama. Blacks 95% for Obama %5 for McCain. Without getting into the fact that Blacks are predominately registered as Democrats lets present a different scenario. Lets say this election involved the last Democraticlly popular Bill Clinton versus Obama. My contention is that the vote would be virtual identical as far as the black vote. Thus leading to ask who is more racist. My belief is that this country will never be considered unracist when/if the black vote under those cicumstances were split equally as the white vote was for McCain. Just curiuos how you all felt.
Not looking for a fight just possible viewpoints.

I wouldn't know I don't see color. I see everyone as clear, odorless, and tasteless. I live in the new America

John Kelder

11-19-2008, 11:35 PM

I wouldn't know I don't see color. I see everyone as clear, odorless, and tasteless. I live in the new America

I wouldn't know I don't see color. I see everyone as clear, odorless, and tasteless. I live in the new America

Is the new America you live in without racial predudice be it people of non color predudice of people of color or people of color predudice of people of non color. My question is hypothetical. If Bill Clinton were to have been allowed to run after 8 years for re-election ( no such thing as party affiliation) and with voters having the full knowledge that he is a two term president, would the black vote in your opinion have been the same.

zipmarc

11-20-2008, 01:31 AM

I wouldn't know I don't see color. I see everyone as clear, odorless, and tasteless. I live in the new America

Which bubble is that? :rolleyes:

K.Bullock

11-20-2008, 05:19 PM

Actually, there was a very lengthy Newsweek article about this exact topic in 2005. I don't have the time to look it up because I am at work right now, and even if I did, I don't care enough about this topic to waste my time. Just providing a source that everyone who is curious about this subject can reference if they are so inclined.

Under "works cited," I would put Newsweek under "magazines"

To put this in perspective. My post was in response to another turrets like post that made a statistical claim about a large group of people. All I said was that the underlying factors for those numbers did not support what was claimed .

Anyway to illustrate what I was saying:
http://sitemaker.umich.edu/salas.356/files/table_of_scores.bmp
http://sitemaker.umich.edu/salas.356/more_money__better_grades

Notice as the percentage of poverty goes up the scores go down. Strongly suggesting that environment is a factor.

If you believe that and take these numbers into consideration:

What are some of the characteristics of officially poor children in America?
Poverty is especially prevalent among black, Latino, and American Indian children.
Child poverty nationwide, by race, 2005
Enlarge

Figure 2: Child poverty nationwide, by race, 2005

* 35% of black children live in poor families. In the 10 most populated states, rates of child poverty among black children range from 20% in New Jersey to 43% in Ohio.
* 28% of Latino children live in poor families. In the 10 most populated states, rates of child poverty among Latino children range from 20% in New Jersey, Florida, and Illinois to 35% in Texas.
* 29% of American Indian and 11% of Asian children live in poor families (comparable state comparisons are not possible due to small sample sizes).
* 10% of white children live in poor families. In the 10 most populated states, rates of child poverty among white children range from 4% in New Jersey to 12% in Georgia.

http://www.nccp.org/publications/pub_684.html

This could explain and seems to suggest why blacks would score lower on proficiency tests than whites. Economics.

To suggest that genetics or racial inferiority plays a role ( as has been suggested) based on a conversation with a friend or a Newsweek article. Reveals more about the intelligence of the person making the statement rather than the kids.

Hoosier

11-20-2008, 06:01 PM

The research
http://www.indiana.edu/~intell/jensen.shtml

My point about not being able to discuss without being jumped on
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_n23_v46/ai_15988903

Jeff - I don't have a lot of faith in those whose results are hard to measure. Though they may be very intelligent, they remind me of economists, only citing those areas where their conclusions fit the result.

By virtue of the luck of my birth, my schooling, and my employment,

All my fellow 4th graders in Jacobus School, Sanborn County, SD also received engineering degrees, 1 attaining a Doctorate in Geological Engineering. We were taught by a lady who had graduated from HS that spring & spent 12 weeks in Normal School that summer. Is that something that is a quotable statistic - I don't think so,

We were all dirt poor, the only thing that was common is our parents (in my case - grandparents) were as responsible as you could be in the early '40s.

The chance of a person of higher IQ rising above their environment is greater than it is for those not endowed with that tool. In reverse, the chance of a person attaining a higher station because of their environmental circumstance is higher because they are learning from a stable atmosphere. JMO

with his IQ of about 115,

That IQ will get you a teaching position in many K-12 programs. It is a fairly standard IQ of the K-12 establishment.

Now, we could discuss MENSA, the brightest 1% who in general do not use the gift they were given, why's that?

Fire N Ice

11-20-2008, 07:07 PM

There is no doubt that scholastic tests scores are socio-economic. Regardless of color. No grand statement of fact being revealed here.
I chose to pose my question on this thread rather than start a new one because discussion dealt with subject matter of race. My question has nothing to do with IQ, test scores or the like. If Presidential elections were held like a high school election, everyone same pot primary, top two to general, and term limits nonexistent would the black vote have fallen out the same Obama versus any president of your choosing (after allready having served) Washington, Lincoln, Roosevelt, Reagan, Clinton whomever. I contend IMO that it would. Thoughts?

Hoosier

11-20-2008, 07:22 PM

There is no doubt that scholastic tests scores are socio-economic. Regardless of color. No grand statement of fact being revealed here.
I chose to pose my question on this thread rather than start a new one because discussion dealt with subject matter of race. My question has nothing to do with IQ, test scores or the like. If Presidential elections were held like a high school election, everyone same pot primary, top two to general, and term limits nonexistent would the black vote have fallen out the same Obama versus any president of your choosing (after allready having served) Washington, Lincoln, Roosevelt, Reagan, Clinton whomever. I contend IMO that it would. Thoughts?

I think the vote is gonna go to who ever is gonna give them the most. The democrats have historically been that party. That been said if the republicans had ran a black canadate against say Bill Clinton they would have gotten a lot more of the black vote then the 5% or so they got in this last election. J.C Watts anyone. What happened to him. Loved that guy.

Fire N Ice

11-20-2008, 07:25 PM

I think the vote is gonna go to who ever is gonna give them the most. The democrats have historically been that party. That been said if the republicans had ran a black canadate against say Bill Clinton they would have gotten a lot more of the black vote then the 5% or so they got in this last election. J.C Watts anyone. What happened to him. Loved that guy.

Now, we could discuss MENSA, the brightest 1% who in general do not use the gift they were given, why's that?
Think of the smartest person you know. Would you want to work for that person. The person I know with the highest IQ sits in meetings playing around with and braiding a ball of yaks hair. All the while rocking like a psycho.

I think Obama 95% black vote and 45% white. But thats just my opinion. I could be way off. If acorn were involved it could be 102% of both. Don't really think you can answer a question like that.

Fire N Ice

11-20-2008, 07:40 PM

Think of the smartest person you know. Would you want to work for that person. The person I know with the highest IQ sits in meetings playing around with and braiding a ball of yaks hair. All the while rocking like a psycho.

LOL!!!! dude aint it the truth. Not a stitch of common sense!

Fire N Ice

11-20-2008, 07:43 PM

I think Obama 95% black vote and 45% white. But thats just my opinion. I could be way off. If acorn were involved it could be 102% of both. Don't really think you can answer a question like that.

Me too. Same numbers. But like you said Acorn could screw up my whole theory and really try and register all voters!

YardleyLabs

11-20-2008, 07:54 PM

Jeff - I don't have a lot of faith in those whose results are hard to measure. Though they may be very intelligent, they remind me of economists, only citing those areas where their conclusions fit the result.

An interesting statement given that this whole thread has become a discussion of how psychometric tests with limited proven applicability can explain why income seems to unduly follow racial lines. Having done a fair amount of economics as part of my graduate work, I became used to models that were capable of explaining 80% or more of observed variance. IQ, by contrast, has coefficients of variance closer to .3. I thought that an APA criticism of a psychometric test was pretty appropriate. In my experience, the biggest critics of IQ tests come from among those who administer them. They are useful in many ways, but need to be handled with care.

All my fellow 4th graders in Jacobus School, Sanborn County, SD also received engineering degrees, 1 attaining a Doctorate in Geological Engineering. We were taught by a lady who had graduated from HS that spring & spent 12 weeks in Normal School that summer. Is that something that is a quotable statistic - I don't think so,

We were all dirt poor, the only thing that was common is our parents (in my case - grandparents) were as responsible as you could be in the early '40s.

The chance of a person of higher IQ rising above their environment is greater than it is for those not endowed with that tool. In reverse, the chance of a person attaining a higher station because of their environmental circumstance is higher because they are learning from a stable atmosphere. JMO

I would agree if you amended your comments to refer to "smart people". My problem is that I think IQ measures only certain dimensions of intelligence. That's one of the reasons we see so many non-starters in organizations such as MENSA -- they tend to lack common sense and drive and fall in love with their own test scores instead.

That IQ will get you a teaching position in many K-12 programs. It is a fairly standard IQ of the K-12 establishment.

Now, we could discuss MENSA, the brightest 1% who in general do not use the gift they were given, why's that?
See above.

Marvin S

11-20-2008, 07:55 PM

I chose to pose my question on this thread rather than start a new one because discussion dealt with subject matter of race.

Mike - I think most agree with your statement, that's why no answers. & the subject of race, most are uncomfortable with making statements that can be misconstrued.

What I would ask is "Why would a demographic vote En Masse for a party that does not want to see their children get a fair shake?" The D's know they have the black vote but they need to be careful that they don't make the Teachers Union unhappy or they will be drummed out of office. Hence, minimal opportunities for the children stuck in bad schools to leave that environment. TMO

Joe S.

11-20-2008, 08:04 PM

What I would ask is "Why would a demographic vote En Masse for a party that does not want to see their children get a fair shake?"

Of course you would, Marv. The question that should be asked is "What is wrong with the Republican Party that it can only attract 5% of a given demographic?"

It is easy to blame the color of the skin of the voters. It is much more difficult for the Party Leadership to take the good long look in the mirror and see real problem...and then have the courage to take their party back.

Ray Charles Can See The Problem And He Is Blind And Dead Regards,

Joe S.

Fire N Ice

11-20-2008, 08:06 PM

Mike - I think most agree with your statement, that's why no answers. & the subject of race, most are uncomfortable with making statements that can be misconstrued.

What I would ask is "Why would a demographic vote En Masse for a party that does not want to see their children get a fair shake?" The D's know they have the black vote but they need to be careful that they don't make the Teachers Union unhappy or they will be drummed out of office. Hence, minimal opportunities for the children stuck in bad schools to leave that environment. TMO

Marvin it is true that teachers unions are in the bag for the Dems. So your saying that teachers unions protect bad teachers, and vouchers are unavailable for removal of those students by parents whom although unlearned scholasticlly have the good common sense to deire their child better than they had, but are unafforded the opportunity because of the system?

Marvin S

11-20-2008, 09:13 PM

Marvin it is true that teachers unions are in the bag for the Dems. So your saying that teachers unions protect bad teachers, and vouchers are unavailable for removal of those students by parents whom although unlearned scholasticlly have the good common sense to deire their child better than they had, but are unafforded the opportunity because of the system?

I say the entire system is bad, just not the teachers, though some may be. Leadership is all important. They've done the experiment several places & really helped those children, but are then shot down by the Teachers Union leaders. Polly Williams in Milwaukee, the Quakers in the Southern states are limited examples.

If you have an interest in race, read some of the books by Thomas Sowell, an economist who happens to be Black, Conservative & very intelligent. The books are a good read. He talks of Dunbar HS, Washington, DC prior to the welfare mentality & how a 1st class institution was driven into mediocrity by the system.

I for one believe there to be no race based lack of mental capacity. I see to many intelligent individuals of all races. Though I do believe initiative to better oneself may be because of ingrained perceptions.

Marvin S

11-20-2008, 09:23 PM

Of course you would, Marv. The question that should be asked is "What is wrong with the Republican Party that it can only attract 5% of a given demographic?" Joe S.

Lib Speak - Why don't you make your party like ours & then we can compete on the give aways? We are there & it's not working. There has not been an acceptable Republican running since Goldwater. We only vote for the Elephants because the Donkeys are much woooooorse.

Now I'm speaking of the children, our future leaders, should'nt we try to make them productive? I will stick by my original statement which I have taken the liberty of including.

What I would ask is "Why would a demographic vote En Masse for a party that does not want to see their children get a fair shake?"

Fire N Ice

11-20-2008, 10:58 PM

Of course you would, Marv. The question that should be asked is "What is wrong with the Republican Party that it can only attract 5% of a given demographic?"

It is easy to blame the color of the skin of the voters. It is much more difficult for the Party Leadership to take the good long look in the mirror and see real problem...and then have the courage to take their party back.

Ray Charles Can See The Problem And He Is Blind And Dead Regards,

Joe S.

Joe my observation has nothing to do with party politics, thats my point. My observation is limited to the fact that when racism is spoken of in this country that a most typical response to racism is that is people of non-color being racist of people of color. This election serves to me to say that the people of non-color chose a person of color by a margin of 45% to 55% a colorless vote. Whereas the black vote was not colorless. So I proposed the hypothetical. IMO if Ray himself would have run those numbers would have been the same. Racism would only seem to me to be unpresent if the day comes that the identical election were to occur and the black vote were to be equally colorless.

Hoosier

11-20-2008, 11:01 PM

Joe my observation has nothing to do with party politics, thats my point. My observation is limited to the fact that when racism is spoken of in this country that a most typical response to racism is that is people of non-color being racist of people of color. This election serves to me to say that the people of non-color chose a person of color by a margin of 45% to 55% a colorless vote. Whereas the black vote was not colorless. So I proposed the hypothetical. IMO if Ray himself would have run those numbers would have been the same. Racism would only seem to me to be unpresent if the day comes that the identical election were to occur and the black vote were to be equally colorless.