alan... wrote:...consciousness is more or less constant while the others come and go. unless asleep or anesthetized, consciousness is always present. heck some dream yogis and yoga nidra people would argue that consciousness is present even in non REM sleep and under anesthesia! so since this process is always happening, mustn't the others happen within it? without consciousness one could not experience any of the other things.

tiltbillings wrote:Toothache:1. There is form, i.e. the tooth as matter/hardness. 2. There is a painful feeling. 3. There is a sight-, touch-, pain- perception of the tooth. 4. There is by the way of volitional reactions: resentment at pain, fear of possible consequences, greed for physical well-being, etc. 5. There is consciousness, -- an awareness of all this.

So in this case No. 5 is mind-consciousness, but eye-consciousness etc occur at No. 3?

"I ride tandem with the random, Things don't run the way I planned them, In the humdrum."Peter Gabriel lyric

alan... wrote:...consciousness is more or less constant while the others come and go. unless asleep or anesthetized, consciousness is always present. heck some dream yogis and yoga nidra people would argue that consciousness is present even in non REM sleep and under anesthesia! so since this process is always happening, mustn't the others happen within it? without consciousness one could not experience any of the other things.

No. Viññāṇa is inconstant like other aggregates.

i'm confused. how can it be inconstant just like the others? i understand it is inconstant but it must have more consistency than the other four. you cannot be conscious of feeling without consciousness, nor anything else. consciousness is the only one that runs pretty much all the time unless asleep or dead (before rebirth or nibbana or whatever). consciousness is the light bulb and the other aggregates are the film strip and screen. without the light bulb you won't be able to make anything out, it will just be darkness. unless i'm missing something?

Maybe he just meant that consciousness is always changing, events of consciousness arise and pass away (or flow) all the time. So consciousness is inconstant, if there were no eye, or no forms, there would be no eye-consciousness and we all know that people can go blind. So eye-consciousness is inconstant in that sense too. The main thing is that all forms of consciousness arise dependent on conditions and if those conditions cease then consciousness will cease as well. Consciousness can't exist all on its own, it is a product of conditions just like everything else and because of that it will never be constant or permanent or reliable as I, me, or mine.

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. There he addressed the monks, "Monks, an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person might grow disenchanted with this body composed of the four great elements, might grow dispassionate toward it, might gain release from it. Why is that? Because the growth & decline, the taking up & putting down of this body composed of the four great elements are apparent. Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person might grow disenchanted, might grow dispassionate, might gain release there.

"But as for what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness,' the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it. Why is that? For a long time this has been relished, appropriated, and grasped by the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person as, 'This is me, this is my self, this is what I am.' Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it.

"It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another.

"The instructed disciple of the noble ones, [however,] attends carefully & appropriately right there at the dependent co-arising:

"'When this is, that is.

"'From the arising of this comes the arising of that.

"'When this isn't, that isn't.

"'From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.

"'In other words:

"'From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications.

"'From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness.

"'From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form.

"'From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media.

"'From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact.

"'From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling.

"'From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving.

"'From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance.

"'From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming.

"'From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth.

"'From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"'Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering.'

"Seeing thus, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with form, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception, disenchanted with fabrications, disenchanted with consciousness.[1] Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"

polarbuddha101 wrote:Maybe he just meant that consciousness is always changing, events of consciousness arise and pass away (or flow) all the time. So consciousness is inconstant, if there were no eye, or no forms, there would be no eye-consciousness and we all know that people can go blind. So eye-consciousness is inconstant in that sense too. The main thing is that all forms of consciousness arise dependent on conditions and if those conditions cease then consciousness will cease as well. Consciousness can't exist all on its own, it is a product of conditions just like everything else and because of that it will never be constant or permanent or reliable as I, me, or mine.

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. There he addressed the monks, "Monks, an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person might grow disenchanted with this body composed of the four great elements, might grow dispassionate toward it, might gain release from it. Why is that? Because the growth & decline, the taking up & putting down of this body composed of the four great elements are apparent. Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person might grow disenchanted, might grow dispassionate, might gain release there.

"But as for what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness,' the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it. Why is that? For a long time this has been relished, appropriated, and grasped by the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person as, 'This is me, this is my self, this is what I am.' Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it.

"It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another.

"The instructed disciple of the noble ones, [however,] attends carefully & appropriately right there at the dependent co-arising:

"'When this is, that is.

"'From the arising of this comes the arising of that.

"'When this isn't, that isn't.

"'From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.

"'In other words:

"'From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications.

"'From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness.

"'From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form.

"'From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media.

"'From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact.

"'From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling.

"'From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving.

"'From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance.

"'From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming.

"'From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth.

"'From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"'Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering.'

"Seeing thus, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with form, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception, disenchanted with fabrications, disenchanted with consciousness.[1] Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"

okay i hope some people are still reading this thread, i'm going to try to define them one more time for critique:

form: physical objects

feeling: painful pleasant or neutral.

perception: the six senses.

formations: the swirl of thoughts and ideas that we build, remember, create, and change.

consciousness: knowing, the light behind the projector.

when i look deeply i see all of the aggregates as utterly impermanent. no question at all, it's obvious. i think this is very in line with what everyone and the suttas say.

the only thing is i see a consciousness that never changes except when sleeping or dying. however this consciousness has no characteristics that are personal so it is not self. it is no different than a flame, it's certainly an action, but not a personal or permanent one. i have trouble seeing it as constantly changing as it is so impersonal! like a star, it certainly has a beginning and an end, you can't see them for half the day and they twinkle, but for the most part they are always there and yet they are still totally impermanent.

i suppose it goes from very wakeful to sleepy pretty frequently, i just feel like the raw consciousness is almost totally consistent. again though, i in no way am saying it is permanent, just that i have trouble seeing it as a constantly changing thing.

can anyone enlighten me? i mean in the sense of teaching me a new concept, not "enlighten me" as in get me to nibbana. although if anyone could do that it would be appreciated as well.

perhaps i should also ask: if one were to be adept at seeing consciousness as not self that should allow one to work back up the ladder in the opposite direction right? as opposed to the other way around, starting with form or trying to apprehend them all at once.

ugh, i think i'm going to have to dust off my "comprehensive manual of abhidhamma" and read it... it's just not as fun as the suttas...

anyone know if this would answer my questions? i've heard the abhidhamma is not totally in line with the suttas though...

Don't dust of your books, you won't find answers there. Books are about dhamma, they are not Dhamma themselves. And you want to see Dhamma. So instead, dust of your meditation cushion. Go sit down, see what the mind does and relax.

To see that consciousness is inconstant is one of the hardest things, but you can get a little flavor once external senses start to shut down one by one. Eye and nose consciousness (sight and smell) go first. Sounds and the body consciousness can also fade away. Only mind consciousness will be left and it will be silent and focused. Because that awareness is the only thing left, it becomes takes itself as object. For the first time, you are looking really at what's beneath all the other stuff that has occupied the rest of your life. By looking deeper and deeper, you may see that this mind is also empty... And then you come to some understanding through your own insight, which you won't ever find in any book, because you know it can't be put into words.

And take it easy. Be content with what you already know and what you already have.

Consciousness may mean various things in western psychology and philosophy. But In theravada, when we use the word consciousness we usually mean vinnana.There are six types of connsciousness, and three types of feelings. When one of the consciousness arises there is just that consciousness in that consciousness; when a feeling arises there is just that feeling in that feeling; there is no "you" in that consciousness or feeling.

And, a consciousness is just a consciousness, and a feeling is just a feeling. Each moment they have their own separate "existence" though they arise together and pass away. So a consciousness is not being conscious of any feeling; that consciousness is just being conscious in and of itself.

alan... wrote:consciousness is the only one that runs pretty much all the time unless asleep or dead (before rebirth or nibbana or whatever).

No single consciousness is running all the time, otherwise it would be constant for a certain period of time which would make understanding of anatta impossible. Consciousness arises and passes away, then arises and passes away... It happens so quickly that there is the illusion that it's the same consciousness and is constant. It is like what's going on in the physical objects: the particles constituting any physical object are changing rapidly each moment but we are not normally aware of such fundamental rapid changes; we are only aware of "upper level" changes which usually seem to be slow and gradual.

Consciousness may mean various things in western psychology and philosophy. But In theravada, when we use the word consciousness we usually mean vinnana.There are six types of connsciousness, and three types of feelings. When one of the consciousness arises there is just that consciousness in that consciousness; when a feeling arises there is just that feeling in that feeling; there is no "you" in that consciousness or feeling.

And, a consciousness is just a consciousness, and a feeling is just a feeling. Each moment they have their own separate "existence" though they arise together and pass away. So a consciousness is not being conscious of any feeling; that consciousness is just being conscious.

alan... wrote:consciousness is the only one that runs pretty much all the time unless asleep or dead (before rebirth or nibbana or whatever).

No single consciousness is running all the time, otherwise it would be constant for a certain period of time which would make understanding of anatta impossible. Consciousness arises and passes away, then arises and passes away... It happens so quickly that there is the illusion that it's the same consciousness and is constant. It is like what's going on in the physical objects: the particles constituting any physical object are changing rapidly each moment but we are not normally aware of such fundamental rapid changes; we are only aware of slow and coarse changes.

I believe your statements happen to be incorrect:

"'Consciousness, consciousness': Thus is it said. To what extent, friend, is it said to be 'consciousness'?"

"'It cognizes, it cognizes': Thus, friend, it is said to be 'consciousness.' And what does it cognize? It cognizes 'pleasant.' It cognizes 'painful.' It cognizes 'neither painful nor pleasant.' 'It cognizes, it cognizes': Thus it is said to be 'consciousness.'"

"Feeling, perception, & consciousness, friend: Are these qualities conjoined or disjoined? Is it possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them?"

"Feeling, perception, & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them. For what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one cognizes. Therefore these qualities are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them."

"Friend, these five faculties — each with a separate range, a separate domain, not experiencing one another's range & domain: the eye-faculty, the ear-faculty, the nose-faculty, the tongue-faculty, & the body-faculty — have the intellect as their [common] arbitrator. The intellect is what experiences [all] their ranges & domains."

Also, I would just like to point out that consciousness doesn't necessarily arise and pass away in discrete units, rather consciousness flows and is sustained by causes and conditions such as the eye, forms, contact and mind. As long as there is eye, forms, contact and mind to experience this then there will be eye-consciousness flowing. It doesn't make consciousness a self, just because a process is sustained as long as the conditions sustaining it are still there doesn't mean that it is permanent or that it has its own independent existence nor does it mean that it won't come to an end, because it most certainly will end as soon as the conditions sustaining it no longer obtain. Similarly with the other forms of consciousness. The idea of discrete units of consciousness is an unfortunate reification of the concept "consciousness" based on a poor conception of time in my opinion but anyway I digress.

Sorry if I came across as confrontational I just wanted to point out some potential/possible problems I saw and that I think are relevant for understanding the dhamma.

"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

Yes, I agree. My understanding is certainly incorrect in light of this sutta. Actually I read the sutta many times, yet I didn't remember it.

Thanks for pointing out. So, I take back the this portion of my post above:

And, a consciousness is just a consciousness, and a feeling is just a feeling. Each moment they have their own separate "existence" though they arise together and pass away. So a consciousness is not being conscious of any feeling; that consciousness is just being conscious in and of itself.

While, I would like to maintain understanding regarding the rest.

"Friend, these five faculties — each with a separate range, a separate domain, not experiencing one another's range & domain: the eye-faculty, the ear-faculty, the nose-faculty, the tongue-faculty, & the body-faculty — have the intellect as their [common] arbitrator. The intellect is what experiences [all] their ranges & domains."

The mind-consciousness is able to cover others ranges. (I don't like the translation "intellect consciousness" for mano-vinnana)

Last edited by SamKR on Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

polarbuddha101 wrote:Also, I would just like to point out that consciousness doesn't necessarily arise and pass away in discrete units, rather consciousness flows and is sustained by causes and conditions such as the eye, forms, contact and mind. As long as there is eye, forms, contact and mind to experience this then there will be eye-consciousness flowing. It doesn't make consciousness a self, just because a process is sustained as long as the conditions sustaining it are still there doesn't mean that it is permanent or that it has its own independent existence nor does it mean that it won't come to an end, because it most certainly will end as soon as the conditions sustaining it no longer obtain. Similarly with the other forms of consciousness. The idea of discrete units of consciousness is an unfortunate reification of the concept "consciousness" based on a poor conception of time in my opinion but anyway I digress.

Thanks for this point. I do not know in actual whether it is like a flow or discrete. But I cannot see it as a flow, and it is certainly arising and passing away. (Time is an illusion anyway.)

If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding: Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)

Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7

polarbuddha101 wrote:Also, I would just like to point out that consciousness doesn't necessarily arise and pass away in discrete units, rather consciousness flows and is sustained by causes and conditions such as the eye, forms, contact and mind. As long as there is eye, forms, contact and mind to experience this then there will be eye-consciousness flowing. It doesn't make consciousness a self, just because a process is sustained as long as the conditions sustaining it are still there doesn't mean that it is permanent or that it has its own independent existence nor does it mean that it won't come to an end, because it most certainly will end as soon as the conditions sustaining it no longer obtain. Similarly with the other forms of consciousness. The idea of discrete units of consciousness is an unfortunate reification of the concept "consciousness" based on a poor conception of time in my opinion but anyway I digress.

Thanks for this point. I do not know in actual whether it is like a flow or discrete. But I cannot see it as a flow, and it is certainly arising and passing away. (Time is an illusion anyway.)

can you explain how you do not see it as a flow and how it is arising and passing away please? this is a concept i'm struggling with.

Don't dust of your books, you won't find answers there. Books are about dhamma, they are not Dhamma themselves. And you want to see Dhamma. So instead, dust of your meditation cushion. Go sit down, see what the mind does and relax.

To see that consciousness is inconstant is one of the hardest things, but you can get a little flavor once external senses start to shut down one by one. Eye and nose consciousness (sight and smell) go first. Sounds and the body consciousness can also fade away. Only mind consciousness will be left and it will be silent and focused. Because that awareness is the only thing left, it becomes takes itself as object. For the first time, you are looking really at what's beneath all the other stuff that has occupied the rest of your life. By looking deeper and deeper, you may see that this mind is also empty... And then you come to some understanding through your own insight, which you won't ever find in any book, because you know it can't be put into words.

And take it easy. Be content with what you already know and what you already have.

With metta,Reflection

thanks. this question comes from the cushion. i noticed that very deep in meditation my conscious awareness is a constant thing. not in increments, it's like a candle flame, it flickers but does not start and stop.

And so, what's the problem? Wanting your meditation to be different than it is, is just adding a new desire, isn't it?It takes letting go to go deeper. That also includes letting go of ideas what you think you are supposed to experience.

reflection wrote:And so, what's the problem? Wanting your meditation to be different than it is, is just adding a new desire, isn't it?It takes letting go to go deeper. That also includes letting go of ideas what you think you are supposed to experience.

indeed, the deeper i get by letting go and also focusing more and more leads to deeper and deeper release of the "I".

it's off the cushion that i start to create a million formations like a labyrinth of questions.