but the tax payer is still out the money. if that's how you define paying it back.....

would you have been as happy for the banks to pay back taxpayer loans with taxpayer loan money? that makes no sense. that's like taking out a second mortgage to pay off the first. you are still in debt....except in this case, it's just the rest of us left with the debt.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

GM got a total of $52 billion from the U.S. government and $9.5 billion from the Canadian and Ontario governments as it went through bankruptcy protection last year. At first the entire amount of U.S. aid was considered a loan as the government tried to keep GM from going under and pulling the fragile economy into a depression.

But during bankruptcy, the U.S. government reduced the loan portion to $6.7 billion and converted the rest to company stock, while the Canadian governments held $1.4 billion in loans.

The automaker hopes to repay the remaining $45.3 billion to the U.S. government and $8.1 billion to Canada via a public stock offering, perhaps later this year. The U.S. government now owns 61% of the company and Canada owns roughly 12%.

Thats how the government got into owning business in the US. Not a good thing.Thats 73 percent of a company owned by governments.

It looks like a good reason to never let them fail,we have too much invested. :-\

I agree with you Buzz, you are presenting the facts, not just propaganda.

Fact is the government DOES own a large part of these companies and saved MILLIONS of white collar, and blue collar jobs. All the heads of the autos said they would be forced into liquidation due to the credit crunch created by the bank criminals without a source to credit. Liquidation means no more domestic auto industry and everybody out of job.

With the government loans, the autos were able to go into bankruptcy INSTEAD of liquidation. When a company goes bankrupt, the people holding the debts in the old entity are given large chunks of equity in the new entity with hopes of making a profit when the company issues stock to the public. Called recapitalization. Our tax payer loans got recapitilized into equity.

If the government wasn’t forced to sell off our equity position on a fixed time table, there is a descent chance we would make money off the stock. However if you tell the Wall Streeters up front you are going to be unloading shares constantly for the next year, the odds are the stock prices keep getting pushed lower by the constant selling pressure. Such has been the case :(

With the government loans, the autos were able to go into bankruptcy INSTEAD of liquidation. When a company goes bankrupt, the people holding the debts in the old entity are given large chunks of equity in the new entity with hopes of making a profit when the company issues stock to the public. Called recapitalization. Our tax payer loans got recapitilized into equity.

nope, sorry. the bailout of the auto industry kept them from bankruptcy. if they had been allowed to file, they could have redone those legacy costs and union wage costs that were the biggest drag on the bottom line. this is the reason obama stepped in. it saved the unions bottom line at the expense of the tax payer.

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Fact is the government DOES own a large part of these companies and saved MILLIONS of white collar, and blue collar jobs. All the heads of the autos said they would be forced into liquidation due to the credit crunch created by the bank criminals without a source to credit. Liquidation means no more domestic auto industry and everybody out of job.

companies go out of business. that's life. people still need cars. cars would still be built. by what right does the government take the money of tax payers and decide which businesses will live an die?

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

It was an American company in the 80s, and 90s.Taken over by Daimler in the late 90s and owned by the Germans until 2007.In 2007, private equity fund Cerberus bought out the Germans and thought they stole the company for a dime on the dollar.

Now here’s where it get’s interesting for our conspiracy loving crowd…

Do you remember who the Chairman of Cerberus International was at that time???

"It is not a field of a few acres of ground, but a cause we are defending, and whether we defeat the enemy in one battle, or by degrees, the consequences will be the same." -Thomas Paine

Some will have you believing that Marx or Lenin muttered these words (and perhaps they did at some point) but it was a favorite hero (Paine would've kicked Welch's butt) of the John Birchers (who can never resist corrupting his message for their own misguided purposes). Is it any surprise that the KOCK Brothers Daddy was a founder of JBS?????

"Power to the people" All of them! If anyone thinks anyone on Wall-Street cares about you or your concerns and should not be closely regulated and monitored, you're a fool or a tool and neither has any value in a 'free' society, but since we're America, you're welcome to stay :-D

I have a friend who flew bombers during WWII. He has a saying that is fitting for these times "You know you're on target when you start getting alot of flack."

Based on some of the content of these posts some of you must believe OWS is right on target, even those who disagree (whether they care to admit it is something else) or condemn their actions.

I get the feeling that some of you never use our highways, that you regularly run lights and stop signs, consider the USMC, Army, Air Force and Navy as useless Government entities, don't need protection from predatory lenders, don't care if the water coming into your homes is safe, or the food you buy from the local grocer isn't contaminated with some foreign substance that can/will eventually kill you. After all, these are all controlled by Government entities.

Don't like the direction our Government is heading, or that it does too much or costs too much. Then do something besides just bitching or blaming (some might actually learn something by getting involved :shock:). I also get the feeling that some think they've never needed any government assistance (or simply won't admit it) but I feel an epiphany is coming their way once those services are NEEDED.

We'll all see some paradigm shifts taking place then, heh 8-)?

thomas

« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 10:26:54 AM by T Beek »

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"Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who say they've found it."

But we want to keep it as small as possible. Mr. Bush grew it in the name of defense, and now Mr. Obama is growing it in the name of...of...I'm not sure why but it is definitely a step toward socialism.

Paradigm shifts? Toward what...making a giant entity even bigger? We can't afford to run the government that we have, what makes you think we can afford to make it bigger? We need massive cuts, but we're getting massive increases in spending.

Here's my deal: I'm willing to pay more in taxes. But there needs to be some effort to balance, not just cutting the increase in spending, otherwise it is throwing good money after bad. If there aren't massive cuts, I'm going to fight tax increases tooth and nail.

That means that many government programs that we can't afford need to go.

At the current rate, we will be Greece in 10 years or less. But that will be ok, it is only rich people that the government owes money, right?

nope, sorry. the bailout of the auto industry kept them from bankruptcy. if they had been allowed to file, they could have redone those legacy costs and union wage costs that were the biggest drag on the bottom line. this is the reason obama stepped in. it saved the unions bottom line at the expense of the tax payer.

Kathy, you're just making it up now. :roll: Chrysler DID file bankruptcy in April, 2009. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/01/business/01auto.html The union workers DID takes pay cuts. And the reason the union survived at all is that they put their retirement fund on the line to finance the company and bring it back out of bankruptcy. GM also went through bankruptcy.

There was an attempt to keep the companies functioning without bankruptcy, but that would have required the bond holders to agree to a write-down of their debt. They refused so they lost everything in bankruptcy court.

"In order to avoid a future that will be painful for us all, we need a present that will be painful for a few." -Jon Stewart (for 10 years voted the most trusted man in America).

And for those already well-off, well how tough will it be to finally accept some responsibility for benefiting off the backs of the rest of the country/world? They should have to bleed too. The 150,000 or so multimillionaires (the 1%) can easily afford it and most pay a lesser tax rate then I ever had to running 'real' small businesses, especially when all deductions and benefits (entitlements) for the wealthy are included. One less mansion, one less car or boat, oh my, for your country and fellow citizens. They are a selfish bunch though :shock:. Its hard to feel sorry for the greedy :roll: or their tools anymore, sorry.

But its time once 'again' (that's right folks, none of these shenanigans are new, just the methods have changed) for the rich to get off their merry-go-round and join the rest of us on the roller coaster (or is it the temple of doom?) 'they' helped create and continue to benefit from.

The rich always make $$ from crisis, that's why they create them in the first place as any student of 'American peoples' history can explain. If they don't figure it out for themselves soon there are some among us who are willing to take back by violence I'm afraid. My hope is that they come around, but I'm not holding my breath, they still feel too safe.

thomas

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"Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who say they've found it."

isn't it amusing that the same people who are supporting occupy and singing their praises, condemn the tea party. one group has managed to destroy property, attract and engage in crime, rape women, interfere with commerce, cost cities millions, and generally stink up the place. the other group has done just what has been suggested here; get involved and make demonstrable changes in the system

what's the difference? liberals are attracted to an emotional message even when the message is unintelligible. those folks may be confused, but THEY CARE, and caring is EVERYTHING! besides, the libs in power don't really want an organized and successful move for change. they want a group that they can use, but not a group that can force them to do anything.

so here is the thing: when you go to town and can't get to the business that you want because of OWS folks, remember THEY CARE. can't use the park because they trashed it, not to worry, THEY CARE, police run out of money because they spent it on overtime at OWS protests? it's ok. the OWS people....THEY CARE.

put that in your head and it will be easier to deal with them.....until spring when they are reconstituted by the unions/communists and engage in the violence that we all know is coming......because THEY CARE.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

And for those already well-off, well how tough will it be to finally accept some responsibility for benefiting off the backs of the rest of the country/world? They should have to bleed too.

this is curious thinking to me. first you assume that people are wealthy because they took for others. then you assume that it's ok to take what they have and give it to others. why is theft ok?

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

"One less mansion, one less car or boat, oh my, for your country and fellow citizens."

And that is 100 less jobs. So that money can go to the government to one more overpaid bureaucrat. Because the government knows better than those people. You did know, didn't you, that the number of highly paid government officials has skyrocketed in the last four years? That the ratio of people on the payrolls of government has skyrocketed in comparison to the PRIVATE sector? You know...that sector where people are responsible for themselves? Taxes that go into government sectors that have no production, no growth, just dead end money holes.

How about....

If the rich people spent MORE lavishly with new houses, boats, cars, paying local sales taxes and creating thousands of new jobs to pay people with an income that will pay taxes as well? Creating dynamic growth, fueling increased tax collections.

You understand economics, so that should be pretty evident.

But then they have and we have-not, and that isn't fair because the poor people feel bad.

Really scads? I think we've already got enough cars in the world don't yo?. We certainly have enough EMPTY houses.

Sorry but I assume nothing Kathyp. For such a self-proclaimed student of history you've clearly missed the mark . My opinions are mostly based on personal experience, not someone elses. Maybe I can suggest some alternative reading? They won't be on any JBS 'approved' list though :-D

You obviously know very little about what OWS is about and even seem to deny there are former tea party members within their ranks. Who do you work for :? :-D

For the record, the so-called 'tea party' has never camped out on the concrete or even held a rally much longer than a day that I'm aware of, yet they somehow attracted people like Dick Army, the KOCK brothers, and a handful of other 'rich' families. That doesn't make anyone just a little suspicious?

The fact is, the Tea Party is loosing people while OWS has been gaining numbers. Turns out OWS is the movement some tea partiers thought they were joining when they joined w/ the Tea Party. I've personally talked with several former TP folks who felt disenfranchised by all the $$$ influencing TP policy and agendas.

Some imply OWS has no focus. Hello? They're called Occupy Wall-Street! There's a clue. For now, protest is enough and its diversity is actually a strength not a sign of weakness. If some care to remember their American history, it took years to develop our own Constitution, evolving from an amorphous and disjointed movement from the very beginning. All they really wanted at the beginning was to be treated better by King George. Hmmm.

Some also imply they are making a mess where ever they are. Anne Coulter called them a "flea Party" as if she actually knows anything at all about it :roll:. Well democracy is messy (and clean ups create jobs :-D. If some of you actually participated more you'd know that there is an ample amount of self-policing going on at OWS sites, but go ahead, believe what you are told to believe, its easier.

These fellow American citizens, who're only practicing and participating in democracy through 'direct action' are as patriotic as any service member (in fact many occupiers are brother and sister veterans from WWII to Afghanistan/ Iraq).

This OWS movement is not about left-right ideologies as the media (and their owners) would have you believe, but is about top down reality.

Its primary focus is pointed directly at the narcissistic greed of today's financial and corporate elites who've turned their backs on Americas's majority and purchased our government wholesale through corporations now masquerading as "people." Some folks spell justice "J-U-S-T-U-S" Guess who?

If that's what we as Americans really want (and many here seem to want just that), well its what we've already got, no use in debating any longer, the corporatist/plutocrats/conservatives have already won and there seem to be plenty who are willing to continue doing their bidding for them as exampled repeatedly within this thread :'(. We may as well just go on home.

You know, some people believe that slavery never really ended in this Country, just a change in the delivery system. Example; The slave owners no longer have to house and feed (care for) the slaves anymore. However, they (the well-off) are still very dependant on us providing them with more slaves though :roll: Make more slaves :lau:

thomas

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"Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who say they've found it."

Most of the cars in the world are not driven by the 1%. And when they use the car for a year and sell it, somebody in the 99% benefits. And the empty house are not unoccupied by the 1%. And those houses that those people couldn't afford and lost through foreclosure (and probably didn't lose any money on)? They're purchased by those who can afford them (from the banks at a huge loss) and rented back to the people so they have housing.

I can tell you that around here, when the housing bubble popped, a lot of people were still employed on some huge houses that take years to build. Helped a LOT of people out. Now that it is reaching the bottom, those huge houses aren't being built anymore, since the rich ARE feeling what everybody else does.

Now those rich are putting it back into the business, and THAT is helping people out.

Yeah...let's stop that from happening by intercepting more of that money and giving it to the government.

OWS - If there was one or two ideas - reform the fed, reform the mortgage system (starting with fannie mae), stop some of the corruption - then yes, there is a lot of common ground there. But it doesn't stop there. It goes on - soak the rich! Pay for our college! Free love! The only people who can stay there are the ones without any responsibilities in life. Rabble gathers. Parks are trashed. People are raped and murdered.

Teaparty? People with responsibilities, families. You are right - sure can't be camping out, especially when they are actually paying for all the services used.

Yeah, the road less traveled is always filled with unknown pitfalls, but the fact is most the planet's people think Americans are the 1% and no, the reality is that most of them 'don't' own cars, much less homes, but they all want them :). And they all deserve them, no offense intended but the worlds big enough. We need to decide whether we are also big enough is all.

Scads You bring up an important, if seldom acknowledged point of the economic crash that we're still paying for (while the rich continue to benefit using their twisted version of Smith's capitalism;

'If I make money it mine, if I loose money its yours.'). How long are the rest of us suppose to just accept that?

As Scads said, while the housing BOOM was going it was great, wasn't it? Locally, the four little (100-200 acre) lakes closest to me in Northwest Wisconsin went from being almost empty of any development to an average of 45 homes (over half are now empty and/or for sale). Everyone around here had work, the locals had more competition than ever. That competition has all since moved away now and the locals are back to 'repair/remodel' jobs if lucky and most of those homes sit vacant. Boom or Bust, the rich always do well.

Money flowed all around while many clearly felt a noose tightening around their necks as fast as housing prices were increasing. Some people got seriously rich. I started hearing about the possibility of this current mess in the early 90's (had one of those cushy Government jobs some of you complain about, riiighttttt :?)

There were plenty of smart people out there sounding the alarm for those listening, but....why pay attention to all that when there's "all that money." Man, we can't just stop being stupid can we? We have to get that money while we can, right? Therin lies one of capitalisms great myths, the myth that we all can be rich if we just leave the already rich alone. But the fact is, whether we regular citizens do well or not makes little difference to those with plenty. The game is rigged, they're the house man, they NEVER loose.

Need I say more? Man, I hope not cuz this is exhausting and I've got CongressPersons and Senators AND Presidents who are anxiously waiting for my letters and phone calls ;).

This topic could continue for days w/out any serious discussion, debate or allowance for challenging others thoughts or opinions, nothing more is possible it seems. It always seems to digress.

I must have a hole in my head for even getting started here. Unfortunately, This what happens as it first gets cold and I'm bored and not yet acclimated. Time to go do something :).

thomas

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"Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who say they've found it."

If the rich people spent MORE lavishly with new houses, boats, cars, paying local sales taxes and creating thousands of new jobs to pay people with an income that will pay taxes as well? Creating dynamic growth, fueling increased tax collections.

You understand economics, so that should be pretty evident.

LOL. We know what Voodoo economics is when we see it. Bush Jr pretty much proved Bush Sr was RIGHT when it comes to economics!