This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the FAQ and RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate and remove the ads - it's free!

Re: The Book of Mormon - Scientific Inaccuracies

HEBRAISMS
"Mark Twain called the Book of Mormon "chloroform in print," and the 1830 edition would similarly impress most modern readers.............The Book of Mormon shows all the signs of being a translation of an ancient Semitic record which has been translated into English by someone who had little skill in English grammar and phrasing. The sentence structure, word usage, and peculiar idioms of the original language have been nearly recreated in sometimes very awkward English phrases. Brother Tvedtnes concludes, "In most cases thus far investigated, Book of Mormon expressions which are ungrammatical in English are perfect Hebrew grammar."(2) Instances of Hebraic expression found in an English text are called Hebraisms. This paper will examine a number of Hebraisms that are found in the Book of Mormon. A more detailed discussion will be found in the references.Hebraisms in the Book of Mormon

Re: The Book of Mormon - Scientific Inaccuracies

NAMES IN THE BOM

From the Collected Works of Hugh Nibley, Vol.5, Part.1, Ch.2)Strange Names
The stamp of Egypt on Lehi's people may be clearly discerned in the names those people and their descendants. Hebrew and Egyptian names together make up the overwhelming majority and occur in about equal strength, which is exactly what one would expect from Mormon's claim that both languages were used among them (and which would certainly not be the case were Hebrew the only spoken language), but Hittite, Arabic, and Ionian elements are not missing. First, consider a few Egyptian names, setting off the Book of Mormon names (BM) against their Old World equivalents (OW).
Aha (BM), son of the Nephite commander in chief.
Aha (OW), a name of the first Pharaoh; it means "warrior" and is a common word.
Aminadab (BM), Nephite missionary in the time of the judges.
Amanathabi (OW), chief of a Canaanite city under Egyptian domination. This name is "reformed" Egyptian.
Ammon (BM), the commonest name in the Book of Mormon.
Ammon (Amon, Amun) (OW), the commonest name in the Egyptian Empire: the great universal God of the Empire.
Ammoni-hah (BM), name of a country and city.
Ammuni-ra (OW), prince of Beyrut under Egyptian rule. The above might stand the same relationship to this name as
Cameni-hah (BM), a Nephite general (Khamuni-ra (OW), Amarna personal name, perhaps equivalent of Ammuni-ra.
Cezoram (BM), Nephite chief judge.
Chiziri (OW), Egyptian governor of a Syrian city.
Giddonah (BM), a) high priest who judged Korihor, b) father of Amulek.
Dji-dw-na (OW), the Egyptian name for Sidon.
Gidgiddoni and Gidgiddonah (BM), Nephite generals.
Djed-djhwt-iw-f and Djed-djhwti-iw-s plus ankh (OW), Egyptian proper name meaning "Thoth hath said: he shall live," and "Thoth hath said: she shall live," respectively. On this pattern the two Nephite names mean "Thoth hath said I shall live," and "Thoth hath said: we shall live," respectively.
Giddianhi (BM), robber chief and general.

Djhwti-ankhi (OW), "Thoth is my life"; see above.
Gimgim-no (BM), city of Gimgim, compare Biblical No-Amon, "City of Amon."
Kenkeme (OW), Egyptian city, cf. Kipkip, seat of the Egyptian dynasty in Nubia.
Hem (BM), brother of the earlier Ammon.
Hem (OW), means "servant," specifically of Ammon, as in the title Hem tp n 'Imn, "chief servant of Ammon" held by the high priest of Thebes.
Helaman (BM), great Nephite prophet.
Her-amon (OW), "in the presence of Amon," as in the Egyptian proper name Heri-i-her-imn. Semitic "l" is always written "r" in Egyptian, which has no "l." Conversely, e Egyptian "r" is often written "l" in Semitic languages.
Himni (BM), a son of King Mosiah.
Hmn (OW), a name of the Egyptian hawk-god, symbol of the emperor.
Korihor (BM), a political agitator who was seized by the people of Ammon.
Kherihor (also written Khurhor, etc.) (OW), great high priest of Ammon who seized the throne of Egypt at Thebes, cir. 1085 b.c.
Manti (BM), the name of a Nephite soldier, a land, a city, and a hill.
Manti (OW), Semitic form of an Egyptian proper name, e.g., Manti-mankhi, prince in Upper Egypt cir. 650 b.c. It is a late form of Month, god of Hermonthis.
Mathoni (BM), a Nephite disciple.

Maitena, Mattenos, etc. (OW), two judges of Tyre, who at different times made themselves king, possibly under the Egyptian auspices.
Morianton (BM), the name of a Nephite city and its founder, cf. the Nephite province Moriantum.
Meriaton and Meriamon (OW), names of Egyptian princes, "Beloved of Aton" and "Beloved of Amon" respectively.
Nephi (BM), founder of the Nephite nation.
Nehi, Nehri (OW), famous Egyptian noblemen. Nfy was the name of an Egyptian captain. Since BM insists on "ph," Nephi is closer to Nihpi, original name of the god Pa-nepi, which may even have been Nephi.
Paanchi (BM), son of Pahoran, Sr., and pretender to the chief-judgeship.
Paanchi (OW), son of Kherihor, a) chief high priest of Amon, b) ruler of the south who conquered all of Egypt and was high priest of Amon at Thebes.
Pahoran (BM), a) great chief judge, b) son of the same.
Pa-her-an (OW), ambassador of Egypt in Palestine, where his name has the "Reformed" reading Pahura; in Egyptian as Pa-her-y it means "the Syrian" or Asiatic.
Pacumeni (BM), son of Pahoran.
Pakamen (OW), Egyptian proper name meaning "blind man"; also Pamenches (Gk. Pachomios), commander of the south and high priest of Horus.
Pachus (BM), revolutionary leader and usurper of the throne.
Pa-ks and Pach-qs (OW), Egyptian proper name. Compare Pa-ches-i, "he is praised."
Sam (BM), brother of Nephi.
Sam Tawi (OW), Egyptian "uniter of the lands," title taken by the brother of Nehri upon mounting the throne.
Seezor-am and Zeezr-om (BM), a depraved judge, and a lawyer, resp., the latter also the name of a city.
Zoser, Zeser, etc. (OW), Third Dynasty ruler, one of the greatest Pharaohs.
Zemna-ri-hah (BM), robber chief.
Zmn-ha-re (OW), Egyptian proper name: the same elements as the above in different order--a common Egyptian practice.
Zeniff (BM), ruler of Nephite colony.
Znb, Snb (OW), very common elements in Egyptian proper names, cf. Senep-ta.
Zenoch (BM), according to various Nephite writers, an ancient Hebrew prophet.
Zenekh (OW), Egyptian proper name; once a serpent-god.

Re: The Book of Mormon - Scientific Inaccuracies

THE NAMES IN LEHI"S FAMILY

"There is a remarkable association between the names of Lehi and Ishmael which ties them both to the southern desert, where the legendary birthplace and central shrine of Ishmael was at a place called Be'er Lehai-ro'i. 50 Wellhausen rendered the name "spring of the wild-ox jawbone," 51 but Paul Haupt showed that Lehi (for so he reads the name) does not mean "jaw" but "cheek," 52 which leaves the meaning of the strange compound still unclear. One thing is certain, however: that Lehi is a personal name. Until recently this name was entirely unknown save as a place name, but now it has turned up at Elath and elsewhere in the south in a form that has been identified by Nelson Glueck with the name Lahai, which "occurs quite frequently either as a part of a compound, or as a separate name of a deity or a person, particularly in Minaean, Thamudic, and Arabic texts." 53 There is a Beit Lahi, "House of Lahi," among the ancient place names of the Arab country around Gaza, but the meaning of the name has here been lost. 54 If the least be said of it, the name Lehi is thoroughly at home among the people of the desert and, so far as we know, nowhere else."-Nibley-see above link.

Another novel Book of Mormon name is Sariah, the wife of Lehi who lived in Jerusalem in 600 B.C. Scholars did not know that Sariah was an authentic ancient Hebrew name for a woman until long after the time of Joseph Smith. Jeffrey R. Chadwick explains in "Sariah in the Elephantine Papyri," Journal of Book of Mormon Studies, Vol. 2., No. 2, 1993, pp. 197-201 (the citation is from p. 196): The conjectural Hebrew spelling of Sariah would be s'ryh and would be pronounced something like Sar-yah. The skeptic might suggest that this name was an invention of Joseph Smith, since Sariah does not appear in the Bible as a female personal name. However, in a significant historical parallel to the Book of Mormon, the Hebrew name Sariah, spelled sryh, has been identified in a reconstructed form as the name of a Jewish woman living at Elephantine in Upper Egypt during the fifth century B.C.
The reference to Sariah of Elephantine is found in Aramaic Papyrus #22 (also called Cowley #22 or C-22) and appears in Aramaic Papyri of the Fifth Century B.C. [Arthur E. Cowley, ed. and trans. (Oxford: Clarendon, 1923), p. 67]. Although the language of the documents is Aramaic, A. E. Cowley specifies that the names are in fact Hebrew [ibid., xv]. Line 4 of C-22 lists the personal name sry[h br]t hws 'br hrmn [ibid., 67]. The probable vocalization is Sariah barat Hoshea' bar Harman, and the text means "Sariah daughter of Hoshea son of Harman." Cowley had to reconstruct part of the text, supplying the final h of Sariah and the initial b-r of barat, but the spacing is adequate, and the comparative context of the papyrus leaves little doubt that the reconstruction is accurate. The extant final t of barat assures us that the person was a daughter, not a son, and, after the letters b-r are supplied, there is only room for one additional letter--the final h of Sariah.

The only example of the name of Laman to be found anywhere to the writer's knowledge is its attribution to an ancient Mukam, or sacred place, in Palestine. Most of these Mukams are of unknown, and many of them of prehistoric, date. In Israel only the tribe of Manasseh built them. 56 It is a striking coincidence that Conder saw in the name Leimun, as he renders it (the vowels must be supplied by guesswork), a possible corruption of the name Lemuel, thus bringing these two names, so closely associated in the Book of Mormon, into the most intimate relationship, and that in the one instance in which the name of Laman appears. 57 Far more popular among the Arabs as among the Nephites was the name Alma, which can mean a young man, a coat of mail, a mountain, or a sign. 58 While Sam is a perfectly good Egyptian name, it is also the normal Arabic form of Shem, the son of Noah.

The name of Lemuel is not a conventional Hebrew one, for it occurs only in one chapter of the Old Testament (Proverbs 31:1, 4), where it is commonly supposed to be a rather mysterious poetic substitute for Solomon. It is, however, like Lehi, at home in the south desert, where an Edomite text from "a place occupied by tribes descended from Ishmael" bears the title, "The Words of Lemuel, King of Massa." These people, though speaking a language that was almost Arabic, were yet well within the sphere of Jewish religion, for "we have nowhere else any evidence for saying that the Edomites used any other peculiar name for their deity" than "Yahweh, the God of Hebrews." 55 (See "Reexploring the Book of Mormon" John W. Welch, ed. Chapters 66-67)

Re: The Book of Mormon - Scientific Inaccuracies

Originally Posted by laska

NAMES IN THE BOM

From the Collected Works of Hugh Nibley, Vol.5, Part.1, Ch.2)Strange Names
The stamp of Egypt on Lehi's people may be clearly discerned in the names those people and their descendants. Hebrew and Egyptian names together make up the overwhelming majority and occur in about equal strength, which is exactly what one would expect from Mormon's claim that both languages were used among them (and which would certainly not be the case were Hebrew the only spoken language), but Hittite, Arabic, and Ionian elements are not missing. First, consider a few Egyptian names, setting off the Book of Mormon names (BM) against their Old World equivalents (OW).

I quite disagree with your argument. The OT also translates several Hebrew expressions and Hebrew language structures from the Hebrew Tanach and Smith just copied them from these OT traslations.

About names. If Smith was not a plaguiarist, then he shouldn't use the Greek transliteration Jesus in his writings.

Please, allow me to explain.

The name of the son of God is YESHUA in Hebrew. This comes from the conjunction of two words: YAH, which is the contraction of the name of YHWH, and HOSHEA, which means "salvation".

You can find this name when Moses changed the name of his secretary Hoshea into Yahoshua. By contracting the name it became Yoshua, or Joshua as it is written in English.

The meaning of this name is "YHWH saves", or "Salvation of YHWH".

You can also find the name in the gospel of Matthew: "...for he (YHWH) shall save (Hoshua) his people from their sins."(Chapter 1:21)

You know that there is no other "saviour" but YHWH, it is in the OT that no other saves but him, the god of the bible.

So, having that the son "carries" the name of the father, the salvation still is from YHWH through his son who carries his name. This is why you still praying to YHWH "in the name of the son".

In Greek, the custom was to end the names of men with the letter "s", like Timaeus, Josephus, Elias, Jeremias, Zacharias, etc.

The name Yeshua (which is derivative of Yahoshua) was the Hebrew name of the son of god. But, the Greeks simply do not pronounced it that way. The Greeks transliterated the name Hebrew name Yeshua into the Greek Iesus.

This is how we have inherited the name Jesus today, from the Greeks.

But, by the narration of Joseph Smith, we can find that he did not transliterate it from Hebrew and neither from Egyptian, otherwise he should transliterate the name of the son of god as Yeshua or Yoshua.

As you pointed above, there are several names which have meanings in different languages, and for your information, the name Jesus means nothing in Greek.

In the past, some people used to believe that the name Jesus was a Greek "translation" of the Hebrew name Yeshua, but names cannot be translated, names can be transliterated only.

So, some people said that the Greek name Jesus means "Saviour", but, such is not true either, because in Greek, saviour is written as "sotter".

Then, we know by fact that Jesus is a Greek transliteratiion of the Hebrew name Yeshua.

Do we speak Greek? No. Did the ancient americans spoke Greek? By no means.

Then, we have the scenario that Mr Smith didn't copy such writings from the Hebrew, because the main name, the real important name doesn't fit in his claims.

We might consider his writings only if he used a similar name to Yeshua transliterated to the pronunciation of the ancient peoples of America, but, to say that the son of god appeared to those ancient guys saying that his name was the Greek "Jesus"...no way Jose.

The son of god had not the slightest reason to identify himself with such a Greek name, and neither with the title "Christ" as his "last name".

The worst gramatical error found in English is the name "JesusChrist". The proper way is Christ Jesus, or Jesus the Christ.

Christ is not his last name, Christ is a title. Like to say, President Bush, or Bush the President. You cannot say it as "BushPresident".

Re: The Book of Mormon - Scientific Inaccuracies

I love it. Comparing "scientific reasoning" to one's religious faith. May I suggest a more productive pastime, try leaping as high as you can until you touch the sky. Please let us know how it feels. AND DON"T WEAR GLOVES!!

Re: The Book of Mormon - Scientific Inaccuracies

I quite disagree with your argument. The OT also translates several Hebrew expressions and Hebrew language structures from the Hebrew Tanach and Smith just copied them from these OT traslations.

About names. If Smith was not a plaguiarist, then he shouldn't use the Greek transliteration Jesus in his writings.

Please, allow me to explain.

The name of the son of God is YESHUA in Hebrew. This comes from the conjunction of two words: YAH, which is the contraction of the name of YHWH, and HOSHEA, which means "salvation".

You can find this name when Moses changed the name of his secretary Hoshea into Yahoshua. By contracting the name it became Yoshua, or Joshua as it is written in English.

The meaning of this name is "YHWH saves", or "Salvation of YHWH".

You can also find the name in the gospel of Matthew: "...for he (YHWH) shall save (Hoshua) his people from their sins."(Chapter 1:21)

You know that there is no other "saviour" but YHWH, it is in the OT that no other saves but him, the god of the bible.

So, having that the son "carries" the name of the father, the salvation still is from YHWH through his son who carries his name. This is why you still praying to YHWH "in the name of the son".

In Greek, the custom was to end the names of men with the letter "s", like Timaeus, Josephus, Elias, Jeremias, Zacharias, etc.

The name Yeshua (which is derivative of Yahoshua) was the Hebrew name of the son of god. But, the Greeks simply do not pronounced it that way. The Greeks transliterated the name Hebrew name Yeshua into the Greek Iesus.

This is how we have inherited the name Jesus today, from the Greeks.

But, by the narration of Joseph Smith, we can find that he did not transliterate it from Hebrew and neither from Egyptian, otherwise he should transliterate the name of the son of god as Yeshua or Yoshua.

As you pointed above, there are several names which have meanings in different languages, and for your information, the name Jesus means nothing in Greek.

In the past, some people used to believe that the name Jesus was a Greek "translation" of the Hebrew name Yeshua, but names cannot be translated, names can be transliterated only.

So, some people said that the Greek name Jesus means "Saviour", but, such is not true either, because in Greek, saviour is written as "sotter".

Then, we know by fact that Jesus is a Greek transliteratiion of the Hebrew name Yeshua.

Do we speak Greek? No. Did the ancient americans spoke Greek? By no means.

Then, we have the scenario that Mr Smith didn't copy such writings from the Hebrew, because the main name, the real important name doesn't fit in his claims.

We might consider his writings only if he used a similar name to Yeshua transliterated to the pronunciation of the ancient peoples of America, but, to say that the son of god appeared to those ancient guys saying that his name was the Greek "Jesus"...no way Jose.

The son of god had not the slightest reason to identify himself with such a Greek name, and neither with the title "Christ" as his "last name".

The worst gramatical error found in English is the name "JesusChrist". The proper way is Christ Jesus, or Jesus the Christ.

Christ is not his last name, Christ is a title. Like to say, President Bush, or Bush the President. You cannot say it as "BushPresident".

Jesus is the name the vast majority of the modern world knows Him by, so personally I think it was wise to translate the name incorrectly in the BOM. Also there are 337 proper names in the BOM, 188 are not found in the Bible. The link below Nibley gives evidence that the BOM didn't just copy the names from the OT.Lehi in the Desert, Part I

Re: The Book of Mormon - Scientific Inaccuracies

Originally Posted by danarhea

Is the Book of Mormon, like the Bible, written by the hand of God through men, or is it only just invention of a man who deceived his flock? One only has to open the Book of Mormon and read it to find that the gross inaccuracies contained in the book show that this is not the word of God at all, and that Joseph Smith DID deceive his followers by writing fiction.

1) I Nephi 18:21 And it came to pass after they had loosed me, behold, I took the compass, and it did work whither I desired it. And it came to pass that I prayed unto the Lord; and after I had prayed the winds did cease, and the storm did cease, and there was a great calm.

-The compass was not even invented until 1800 years later.

2) I Nephi 8:25 And it came to pass that we did find upon the land of promise, as we journeyed in the wilderness, that there were beasts in the forests of every kind, both the cow and the ox, and the a$$ and the horse, and the goat and the wild goat, and all manner of wild animals, which were for the use of men. And we did find all manner of ore, both of gold, and of silver, and of copper.

-Cows and horses did not exist in the Americas at that time, and would not exist until 2000 years later, when Europeans brought them over.

I Nephi 4:9 And I beheld his sword, and I drew it forth from the sheath thereof; and the hilt thereof was of pure gold, and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine, and I saw that the blade thereof was of the most precious steel.

-Steel did not exist in the Americas until Columbus.

Enos 1:20 And I bear record that the people of Nephi did seek diligently to restore the Lamanites unto the true faith in God. But our labors were vain; their hatred was fixed, and they were led by their evil nature that they became wild, and ferocious, and a bloodthirsty people, full of idolatry and filthiness; feeding upon beasts of prey; dwelling in tents, and wandering about in the wilderness with a short skin girdle about their loins and their heads shaven; and their skill was in the bow, and in the cimeter, and the ax. And many of them did eat nothing save it was raw meat; and they were continually seeking to destroy us.

-The cimter is a curved sword, with the sharp edge on the convex side. None have ever been found by archaeologists studying the Americas.

Mosiah 7:22 And all this he did, for the sole purpose of bringing this people into subjection or into bondage. And behold, we at this time do pay tribute to the king of the Lamanites, to the amount of one half of our corn, and our barley, and even all our grain of every kind, and one half of the increase of our flocks and our herds; and even one half of all we have or possess the king of the Lamanites doth exact of us, or our lives.

-Barley did not exist in the Americas at that time.

Ether 2:3 And they did also carry with them deseret, which, by interpretation, is a honey bee; and thus they did carry with them swarms of bees, and all manner of that which was upon the face of the land, seeds of every kind.

-Honeybees did not exist in the New World until Europeans introduced them in the 1700's.

I am not a Mormon, but maybe when Joseph Smith was writing (translating) the Book of Mormon and that would come across information that he did not totally understand. Then he would use familiar ideas and words, simile, like Bees, Horses, Cow. to make situations and ideas more understandable to readers.

The Practice is common in our time. There are many modern versions of the Bible and there gross difference in verses and meanings of chapters from book to book. Writer alway say that they are only trying to make it easier to understand. What they are actually saying is that their version and understanding is better than mine or your understanding and verson of the bible.

It is possible that Joseph Smith was not aware that European Bees had been brought by colonists, or that horses and cows were brought by Spanish. I assume that when translating some thing, that one uses the language and ideas that one knows. I am not sure that it is important. Seems to me that it is the religious information and ideas that are important in the Book of Mormon.

Some Missionaries gave me a copy of the Book Of Mormon a few years ago, I guess I should read it to find out what the book of mormon teaches. Yet I am old, lazy and probably won't. It is obvious that you are quoting an online site, and not quoting your own experience. You should read the book of Mormon and then complain.

I am curious, Are you a Christian?? No need to answer.

Your scientific arguments are OK, but they only show that Joseph Smith lived in the 19th century.

European Bees were brought over true. But there were native bees, in the Western hemisphere. One native species is now called Killer Bees.

Re: The Book of Mormon - Scientific Inaccuracies

Originally Posted by rhinefire

I love it. Comparing "scientific reasoning" to one's religious faith. May I suggest a more productive pastime, try leaping as high as you can until you touch the sky. Please let us know how it feels. AND DON"T WEAR GLOVES!!

There is nothing worst than blind faith. People must at least learn in what are they believing.

Re: The Book of Mormon - Scientific Inaccuracies

Originally Posted by laska

Jesus is the name the vast majority of the modern world knows Him by, so personally I think it was wise to translate the name incorrectly in the BOM. Also there are 337 proper names in the BOM, 188 are not found in the Bible. The link below Nibley gives evidence that the BOM didn't just copy the names from the OT.Lehi in the Desert, Part I

Amazing. And he didn't left a note saying why he decided to use the Greek pronunciation instead of the Hebrew one of the name of the Messiah.

I guess that if he did that "in purpose" this dude Smith might have also changed several other parts in the translations of his famous plates.

Look, according to the bible there is "one name" to which the angels of heaven knee when is pronounced...and stuff like that. Excuse me but in "heaven" the Greek pronunciation might not be accepted but the Hebrew one, so, your prayers have no effect everytime you mispronounce his name.

Re: The Book of Mormon - Scientific Inaccuracies

Amazing. And he didn't left a note saying why he decided to use the Greek pronunciation instead of the Hebrew one of the name of the Messiah.-Conquer

Why are some of the place names in the BOM direct transmissions of Hebrew such Shazar and Nahom, and other place names translations, such as the land of Desolation. There is nothing improper in this, and it makes a lot of sense that the Messiah be translated into the expression that 99 percent of the English speaking world knows Him by.

Look, according to the bible there is "one name" to which the angels of heaven knee when is pronounced...and stuff like that. Excuse me but in "heaven" the Greek pronunciation might not be accepted but the Hebrew one, so, your prayers have no effect everytime you mispronounce his name.-Conquer

Dude, I doubt God is that small. My bet is clean hands and a pure heart has more sway in heaven then proper pronunciation. If not I have a hair lip friend that's in trouble .