Menexenus

Plato
*******The Project Gutenberg Etext of Menexenus, by Plato*******
#23 in our series by Plato
Copyright laws are changing all over the world, be sure to check
the copyright laws for your country before posting these files!!
Please take a look at the important information in this header.
We encourage you to keep this file on your own disk, keeping an
electronic path open for the next readers. Do not remove this.
**Welcome To The World of Free Plain Vanilla Electronic Texts**
**Etexts Readable By Both Humans and By Computers, Since 1971**
*These Etexts Prepared By Hundreds of Volunteers and Donations*
Information on contacting Project Gutenberg to get Etexts, and
further information is included below. We need your donations.
Menexenus
by Plato
Translated by Benjamin Jowett
March, 1999 [Etext #1682]
*******The Project Gutenberg Etext of Menexenus, by Plato*******
******This file should be named 1mnxns0.txt or mnxns10.zip******
Corrected EDITIONS of our etexts get a new NUMBER, mnxns11.txt
VERSIONS based on separate sources get new LETTER, mnxns10a.txt
This etext was prepared by Sue Asscher <asschers@aia.net.au>
Project Gutenberg Etexts are usually created from multiple editions,
all of which are in the Public Domain in the United States, unless a
copyright notice is included. Therefore, we do NOT keep these books
in compliance with any particular paper edition, usually otherwise.
We are now trying to release all our books one month in advance
of the official release dates, for time for better editing.

Please note: neither this list nor its contents are final till
midnight of the last day of the month of any such announcement.
The official release date of all Project Gutenberg Etexts is at
Midnight, Central Time, of the last day of the stated month. A
preliminary version may often be posted for suggestion, comment
and editing by those who wish to do so. To be sure you have an
up to date first edition [xxxxx10x.xxx] please check file sizes
in the first week of the next month. Since our ftp program has
a bug in it that scrambles the date [tried to fix and failed] a
look at the file size will have to do, but we will try to see a
new copy has at least one byte more or less.
Information about Project Gutenberg (one page)
We produce about two million dollars for each hour we work. The
fifty hours is one conservative estimate for how long it we take
to get any etext selected, entered, proofread, edited, copyright
searched and analyzed, the copyright letters written, etc. This
projected audience is one hundred million readers. If our value
per text is nominally estimated at one dollar then we produce $2
million dollars per hour this year as we release thirty-six text
files per month, or 432 more Etexts in 1999 for a total of 2000+
If these reach just 10% of the computerized population, then the
total should reach over 200 billion Etexts given away this year.
The Goal of Project Gutenberg is to Give Away One Trillion Etext
Files by the December 31, 2001. [10,000 x 100,000,000=Trillion]
This is ten thousand titles each to one hundred million readers,
which is only ~5% of the present number of computer users.
At our revised rates of production, we will reach only one-third
of that goal by the end of 2001, or about 3,333 Etexts unless we
manage to get some real funding; currently our funding is mostly
from Michael Hart's salary at Carnegie-Mellon University, and an
assortment of sporadic gifts; this salary is only good for a few
more years, so we are looking for something to replace it, as we
don't want Project Gutenberg to be so dependent on one person.
We need your donations more than ever!
All donations should be made to "Project Gutenberg/CMU": and are
tax deductible to the extent allowable by law. (CMU = CarnegieMellon University).
For these and other matters, please mail to:
Project Gutenberg
P. O. Box 2782
Champaign, IL 61825
When all other email fails try our Executive Director:
Michael S. Hart <hart@pobox.com>
We would prefer to send you this information by email.

.
Mac users.
*BEFORE!* YOU USE OR READ THIS ETEXT
By using or reading any part of this PROJECT GUTENBERG-tm
etext. This site lists Etexts by
author and by title. and even if what's wrong is not our
fault.******
To access Project Gutenberg etexts. So. even if you got it for free from
someone other than us. among other things.com. or subscribe here. and includes information about how
to get involved with Project Gutenberg..set bin for zip files]
GET GUTINDEX.net/pg. This
is one of our major sites. please email hart@pobox. use any Web browser
to view http://promo. It also tells you how
you can distribute copies of this etext if you want to.unc. like most PROJECT GUTENBERGtm etexts. use FTP or any
Web browser to visit a Project Gutenberg mirror (mirror
sites are available on 7 continents. e. agree to and accept
this "Small Print!" statement. typing works better. .net/pg). this "Small Print!" statement
disclaims most of our liability to you. you must return it with your request.
for a more complete list of our various sites.ALL [to get a listing of ALL books]
***
**Information prepared by the Project Gutenberg legal advisor**
(Three Pages)
***START**THE SMALL PRINT!**FOR PUBLIC DOMAIN ETEXTS**START***
Why is this "Small Print!" statement here? You know: lawyers. You could also
download our past Newsletters.
To go directly to the etext collections. mirrors are listed
at http://promo.
ABOUT PROJECT GUTENBERG-TM ETEXTS
This PROJECT GUTENBERG-tm etext.99]
GET GUTINDEX.
They tell us you might sue us if there is something wrong with
your copy of this etext. If you received this etext on a physical
medium (such as a disk).g.edu
login: anonymous
password: your@login
cd pub/docs/books/gutenberg
cd etext90 through etext99
dir [to see files]
get or mget [to get files. do NOT point and click.
Example FTP session:
ftp sunsite. you can receive
a refund of the money (if any) you paid for this etext by
sending a request within 30 days of receiving it to the person
you got it from. GUTINDEX. If you do not. is a "public domain" work distributed by Professor
. you indicate that you understand.?? [to get a year's listing of books.

INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO INDIRECT.
[1] the Project (and any other party you may receive this
etext from as a PROJECT GUTENBERG-tm etext) disclaims all
liability to you for damages. set forth
below. [2] alteration. INCLUDING BUT NOT
LIMITED TO WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A
PARTICULAR PURPOSE. and you
may have other legal rights. If you received it electronically. If you received it
on a physical medium. including legal fees. this means that no one owns a United States copyright
on or for this work. EXPRESS OR IMPLIED.
. a defective or damaged
disk or other etext medium. apply if you wish to copy and distribute this etext
under the Project's "PROJECT GUTENBERG" trademark. including
legal fees. Hart through the Project Gutenberg Association at
Carnegie-Mellon University (the "Project").
Some states do not allow disclaimers of implied warranties or
the exclusion or limitation of consequential damages. Among other
things. Defects may take the form of incomplete. OR FOR BREACH OF WARRANTY OR CONTRACT.
officers.
LIMITED WARRANTY. such person may
choose to alternatively give you a second opportunity to
receive it electronically. transcription errors. so the Project (and you!) can copy and
distribute it in the United States without permission and
without paying copyright royalties. costs and expenses. Despite these efforts.
If you discover a Defect in this etext within 90 days of
receiving it. you can receive a refund of the money (if any)
you paid for it by sending an explanatory note within that
time to the person you received it from. inaccurate or
corrupt data. a computer virus. EVEN IF YOU GIVE NOTICE OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES.
To create these etexts. the Project's etexts and any
medium they may be on may contain "Defects". PUNITIVE
OR INCIDENTAL DAMAGES. Among other
things.
THIS ETEXT IS OTHERWISE PROVIDED TO YOU "AS-IS".Michael S.
INDEMNITY
You will indemnify and hold the Project. and [2] YOU HAVE NO REMEDIES FOR NEGLIGENCE OR
UNDER STRICT LIABILITY. CONSEQUENTIAL. members and agents harmless from all liability. Special rules. a copyright or other
intellectual property infringement. ARE MADE TO YOU AS
TO THE ETEXT OR ANY MEDIUM IT MAY BE ON. and
such person may choose to alternatively give you a replacement
copy. modification. its directors. that arise directly or
indirectly from any of the following that you do or cause:
[1] distribution of this etext. so the
above disclaimers and exclusions may not apply to you. the Project expends considerable
efforts to identify. DISCLAIMER OF DAMAGES
But for the "Right of Replacement or Refund" described below. NO OTHER
WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND. you must return it with your note. cost
and expense. or computer
codes that damage or cannot be read by your equipment. transcribe and proofread public domain
works.

29. Royalties are
payable to "Project Gutenberg Association/Carnegie-Mellon
University" within the 60 days following each
date you prepare (or were legally required to prepare)
your annual (or equivalent periodic) tax return. EBCDIC or equivalent
form by the program that displays the etext (as is
the case. royalty
free copyright licenses.
WHAT IF YOU *WANT* TO SEND MONEY EVEN IF YOU DON'T HAVE TO?
The Project gratefully accepts contributions in money. although tilde
(~).
DISTRIBUTION UNDER "PROJECT GUTENBERG-tm"
You may distribute copies of this etext electronically.or addition to the etext. compressed. and every other sort of contribution
you can think of. with most word processors). or by
disk. OCR software.
including any form resulting from conversion by word processing or hypertext software. or agree to also provide on request at
no additional cost. or proprietary form. book or any other medium if you either delete this
"Small Print!" and all other references to Project Gutenberg. You may however. Money should be paid to "Project Gutenberg
Association / Carnegie-Mellon University". If you
don't derive profits.
[2] Honor the etext refund and replacement provisions of this
"Small Print!" statement. and
does *not* contain characters other than those
intended by the author of the work. when displayed. but only so long as
*EITHER*:
[*] The etext.04. for instance. OR
[*] The etext may be readily converted by the reader at
no expense into plain ASCII.
scanning machines. fee or expense.
[3] Pay a trademark license fee to the Project of 20% of the
net profits you derive calculated using the method you
already use to calculate your applicable taxes. distribute this etext in machine readable
binary. alter or modify the
etext or this "small print!" statement.93*END*
.
OR
[*] You provide. this
requires that you do not remove. and additional characters may be used to
indicate hypertext links.
or:
[1] Only give exact copies of it. is clearly readable. Among other things. no royalty is due.
if you wish. or [3] any Defect.
*END*THE SMALL PRINT! FOR PUBLIC DOMAIN ETEXTS*Ver. public domain etexts. a copy of the
etext in its original plain ASCII form (or in EBCDIC
or other equivalent proprietary form). mark-up. asterisk (*) and underline (_) characters may
be used to convey punctuation intended by the
author. time.

Further. and
some of them omit the name of the dialogue from which they are taken. Phaedo. and to the forger or imitator. such as epistles or panegyrical
orations. or binding. are also of doubtful credit. And several of the citations of Aristotle omit the name of Plato. and the name once appended easily obtained authority. the 'literary
hack' of Alexandria and Athens. and in the next generation Aristotle. An unknown writing
was naturally attributed to a known writer whose works bore the same
character.
Antisthenes. which
have a taste of sophistry in them. while there is no instance of any
ancient writing proved to be a forgery. or even of distinct titles. again. those.
It seems impossible to separate by any exact line the genuine writings of
Plato from the spurious.
Prior.
general considerations which equally affect all evidence to the genuineness
of ancient writings are the following: Shorter works are more likely to
have been forged. A
. or in which a motive or some
affinity to spurious writings can be detected. Euclid. are all said to have
composed dialogues. however.au>
MENEXENUS
by Plato (see Appendix I)
Translated by Benjamin Jowett
APPENDIX I. for the Alexandrian catalogues of a
century later include manifest forgeries. than longer
ones. Aeschines.This etext was prepared by Sue Asscher <asschers@aia. or to have received an erroneous designation. or the ring of a later age.
Greek literature in the third century before Christ was almost as
voluminous as our own. Even the value of the
Aristotelian authority is a good deal impaired by the uncertainty
concerning the date and authorship of the writings which are ascribed to
him. or which seem to have
originated in a name or statement really occurring in some classical
author. The only external evidence to them which is of
much value is that of Aristotle.
or printing. and some kinds of composition. which combines excellence with
length.net. and without the safeguards of regular publication. or the
slighter character of a rhetorical exercise. are more liable to suspicion than others. the Gods did not grant originality or
genius. in attempting to balance the evidence for and against a
Platonic dialogue. and mistakes of names are very likely to have occurred. A really great and original writer would have no object in
fathering his works on Plato. we must not forget that the form of the Platonic writing
was common to several of his contemporaries. to the enquiry about the writings of a particular author.

or
inconsistency of thought.
have an inferior degree of evidence in their favour. such as the Parmenides and the Politicus. under
their own names. There is another portion of them. and a
frequenter of the groves of the Academy. and (4) accordance with the
general spirit of his writings. of (3) great
excellence. both of internal and external
evidence. Nor must we forget that in all his numerous citations from
the Platonic writings he never attributes any passage found in the extant
dialogues to any one but Plato. or they may have been the writings of some contemporary
transferred by accident to the more celebrated name of Plato.
Sisyphus. and also (4) in harmony with the general spirit of the Platonic
writings. They may have been
supposed by him to be the writings of another.g. the Phaedo. e. although in the case of
really great works. which though in many cases sufficient. the
Laws. or of some
Platonist in the next generation who aspired to imitate his master. or inferiority of execution. There may be also a possibility that Aristotle was mistaken. Those writings which he cites without mentioning Plato. and
in the use of words. namely. is of inferior value. in the formation of sentences. For who always does justice to himself.g.
or may have confused the master and his scholars in the case of a short
writing. the Phaedo. the Funeral Oration. or who writes
with equal care at all times? Certainly not Plato. And lastly. e. Some difference of style. which (2) is of considerable length. Demodocus. say the Protagoras or Phaedrus with the Laws.
Proceeding upon these principles we appear to arrive at the conclusion that
nineteen-twentieths of all the writings which have ever been ascribed to
Plato.
including the Epistles. the Epinomis. To a later Platonist. we may remark that one or two
great writings. Not
that on grounds either of language or philosophy we should lightly reject
them. which on grounds. But the testimony of Aristotle cannot always be distinguished
from that of a later age (see above). can hardly be considered decisive of their
spurious character. may be partly or wholly the compositions
of pupils. are still more defective in their external
credentials. if his earlier writings are compared with his later
ones. are undoubtedly genuine. who exhibits the
greatest differences in dramatic power. e.g. They may have been written in youth. or possibly
like the works of some painters. during the last twenty years of
Plato's life. De justo.. But there still
remains a small portion of which we are unable to affirm either that they
are genuine or spurious. Or who can be expected
. Indeed the greater part of the evidence
for the genuineness of ancient Greek authors may be summed up under two
heads only: (1) excellence. those again
which are quoted but not named. which are wholly
devoid of Aristotelian (1) credentials may be fairly attributed to Plato. the Axiochus.
These considerations lead us to adopt the following criteria of
genuineness: (1) That is most certainly Plato's which Aristotle attributes
to him by name. especially when we remember that he was living at Athens.
on the ground of (2) length. the Hippias. The
Memorabilia of Xenophon and the Dialogues of Plato are but a part of a
considerable Socratic literature which has passed away. the dialogues rejected by the
ancients themselves. And we must
consider how we should regard the question of the genuineness of a
particular writing. and has various degrees of
importance. and (2) uniformity of tradition--a kind of
evidence. this is not credible. Eryxias. etc. De virtute. but this is inconceivable about a more important work. if this lost literature had been preserved to us. (3) excellence.tendency may also be observed to blend the works and opinions of the master
with those of his scholars. we are able with equal certainty to reject. the difference between
Plato and his imitators was not so perceptible as to ourselves.

On the other hand. In reference to the last point we are doubtful. The resemblances
or imitations of the Gorgias. and was. Mem. in the satirical reasoning upon Homer. Moreover. Mem. Though a very clever and ingenious work.
From the mention of 'Hippias' in the singular by Aristotle. to invent. and of
a First and Second Alcibiades. and casting a
veil over the gloomier events of Athenian history. The funeral oration of Pericles is expressly mentioned
in the Phaedrus. the upholders of the
genuineness of the dialogue will find in the Hippias a true Socratic
spirit. they will urge the authority of Aristotle. the Lesser Hippias and the Funeral Oration are cited
by Aristotle. or as the
Second Alcibiades seems to be founded upon the text of Xenophon.
The dialogues which have been translated in the first Appendix. they will compare the Ion as being akin both in subject and
treatment.
intended to rival that great work. who
was also a careful student of the earlier Platonic writings.
The motive or leading thought of the dialogue may be detected in Xen. and to a certain extent in the Parmenides. It exhibits an
acquaintance with the funeral oration of Thucydides. and they will detect
in the treatment of the Sophist. the Menexenus or Funeral Oration. but in the
Protagoras. perhaps. as well as of
political and literary transition? Certainly not Plato. A
similar taste for parody appears not only in the Phaedrus. the Lesser Hippias
does not appear to contain anything beyond the power of an imitator. but in his citation of
both of them he seems to be referring to passages in the extant dialogues. traces of
a Platonic authorship. in the same
manner that the Cleitophon appears to be suggested by the slight mention of
Cleitophon and his attachment to Thrasymachus in the Republic. the First
Alcibiades.' That no conclusion is arrived at is also in
accordance with the character of the earlier dialogues.. in the Symposium. and is interesting
as supplying an example of the manner in which the orators praised 'the
Athenians among the Athenians.
are the Lesser Hippias. the first in the Metaphysics. or merely following the argument
'whither the wind blows. Protagoras. and Euthydemus. more may be said in favour of the genuineness
of the Hippias than against it. and cannot therefore be tested by a comparison of the other
writings of Plato. On the whole. cannot with certainty be adduced on either side of
the argument. the mere existence of a Greater and Lesser Hippias. like the speeches in the
Phaedrus. in an age of great intellectual activity.
Neither of them are expressly attributed to Plato. and the
Theages by the mention of Theages in the Apology and Republic. whether the author is asserting or
overthrowing the paradox of Socrates. whose earlier
writings are separated from his later ones by as wide an interval of
philosophical speculation as that which separates his later writings from
Aristotle. and this may have suggested the subject. the
oration itself is professedly a mimetic work.
and there is no similar instance of a 'motive' which is taken from Xenophon
in an undoubted dialogue of Plato. which have been
observed in the Hippias. and which
appear to have the next claim to genuineness among the Platonic writings. the latter in the Rhetoric. The satirical opening and
the concluding words bear a great resemblance to the earlier dialogues.' falsifying persons and dates. we may perhaps
infer that he was unacquainted with a second dialogue bearing the same
name.
The Menexenus or Funeral Oration is cited by Aristotle. the proper place of the
Menexenus would be at the end of the Phaedrus.
. If genuine. does to a certain extent throw a doubt upon
both of them.to think in the same manner during a period of authorship extending over
above fifty years. as
in some of the other dialogues. in
the reductio ad absurdum of the doctrine that vice is ignorance. Of these.

At
the same time. For the disparaging manner in which Schleiermacher
has spoken of this dialogue there seems to be no sufficient foundation. can be fairly doubted by those
. The three dialogues which we have offered in the Appendix to
the criticism of the reader may be partly spurious and partly genuine. and to their inimitable
excellence.--that is an alternative which must be frankly
admitted. that their genuineness is neither proven nor disproven until further
evidence about them can be adduced. Nor can we maintain of some other dialogues. We know. if we exclude the works rejected by the ancients themselves
and two or three other plausible inventions. the lesson imparted is simple. The motive of the piece may.
The nature and object of these semi-Platonic writings require more careful
study and more comparison of them with one another. perhaps. has the greatest merit.To these two doubtful writings of Plato I have added the First Alcibiades. than they have yet received. the Timaeus. and with forged
writings in general. And we are as confident that the
Epistles are spurious. it is to be compared to the earlier writings of
Plato. nor at any other. though not verified by the testimony
of Aristotle. and
is somewhat longer than any of them. and (3) considering that we
have express testimony to the existence of contemporary writings bearing
the name of Alcibiades. such as the
Parmenides. on the other hand. too. The traditions of the
oral discourses both of Socrates and Plato may have formed the basis of
semi-Platonic writings.
On the whole. that
Alcibiades was a favourite thesis. of all the disputed dialogues of Plato. some of them may be of the same mixed character
which is apparent in Aristotle and Hippocrates. as that the Republic. There may have been
degrees of genuineness in the dialogues themselves. they
may be altogether spurious. may be genuine. and in many respects at variance with the Symposium in the
description of the relations of Socrates and Alcibiades. before we can finally
decide on their character. Like the Lesser
Hippias and the Menexenus. and Politicus. we are compelled to suspend our judgment on the
genuineness of the extant dialogue. do we propose to draw an absolute
line of demarcation between genuine and spurious writings of Plato. but should say of some of
them. and (2) in the absence of the highest marks
either of poetical or philosophical excellence.
seem never to have been confused with the writings of his disciples: this
was probably due to their definite form. be found in that passage of
the Symposium in which Alcibiades describes himself as self-convicted by
the words of Socrates. We do not consider them all as genuine until
they can be proved to be spurious. They
fade off imperceptibly from one class to another.
which. Nor. But the writings of Plato.
can we exclude a bare possibility that some dialogues which are usually
rejected. although the form of them
is different. unlike the writings of Aristotle. not a twentieth part of the writings which pass under the
name of Plato. (1) In the entire absence of real
external evidence (for the catalogues of the Alexandrian librarians cannot
be regarded as trustworthy). though greatly overbalanced by the weight
(chiefly) of internal evidence in their favour. and that at least five or six dialogues
bearing this name passed current in antiquity. that no considerable objection
can be urged against them. as there are certainly
degrees of evidence by which they are supported. and the irony more
transparent than in the undoubted dialogues of Plato. such as the Greater Hippias and the Cleitophon. and the Sophist. and are attributed to
contemporaries of Socrates and Plato. and the Laws are
genuine.
Neither at this point. as is often maintained and still more
often implied in this and similar discussions.

to whom in the Phaedrus Plato shows a strong antipathy. is evidently intending
to ridicule the practice. and the legendary history of Athens. But Plato. was the
shortness of the time allowed them for preparation. and is in
the manner of Plato. an event occurring forty
years after the date of the supposed oration. conformed to a regular type. falls very far short of the
rugged grandeur and political insight of the great historian. and of how much better he
might have written in his own style.
is careless of such anachronisms. The war of Athens and Boeotia is a war of liberation. The Menexenus. The fiction
of the speech having been invented by Aspasia is well sustained. and the like. and though suggesting some interesting questions to
the scholar and critic. The taking of Athens is hardly mentioned. In his rivalry with the
latter. That twentieth debatable
portion scarcely in any degree affects our judgment of Plato. and at the same time to show that he can beat the
rhetoricians in their own line. They
began with Gods and ancestors. The effect produced by these grandiloquent orations on
Socrates.
who were more honoured than the friends of others (compare Thucyd. The writer seems to have wished to emulate
Thucydides. notwithstanding the anachronism which puts into her
mouth an allusion to the peace of Antalcidas. as we find in Lysias.
The Menexenus has more the character of a rhetorical exercise than any
other of the Platonic works.
the Athenians gave back the Spartans taken at Sphacteria out of kindness-indeed. if we may form a judgment from the three which are extant
(for the so-called Funeral Oration of Demosthenes is a bad and spurious
imitation of Thucydides and Lysias). either as a
thinker or a writer. he is
entirely successful. like Shakespeare.who are willing to allow that a considerable change and growth may have
taken place in his philosophy (see above). is truly Platonic. which
seems to contain the germ of the idea).. But Socrates points
. The orators had recourse to their
favourite loci communes.
The author of the Menexenus.
MENEXENUS
by
Plato (see Appendix I above)
Translated by Benjamin Jowett
INTRODUCTION. The Menexenus veils in panegyric the weak places of
Athenian history. and the far slighter work of Lysias. in the age of
Isocrates and Demosthenes the Athenians were still living on the glories of
Marathon and Salamis. which are not supposed to strike the mind
of the reader.
though not without real Hellenic interest. one of which. whether Plato or not.
Such discourses. we democrats are the aristocracy of
virtue. but he is not equal to Thucydides. as in the Phaedrus he may be supposed to
offer an example of what Lysias might have said. to
which succeeded an almost equally fictitious account of later times. the only fault of the city was too great kindness to their enemies. The
Persian war usually formed the centre of the narrative. is of little importance to the general reader. who does not recover after having heard one of them for three
days and more. These are the platitudes and falsehoods in which
history is disguised.

and Plato. Plato. Without violating the character of Socrates. whether
original or imitated may be uncertain. the well-known words. are problems which no critical instinct can determine.--to praise them among the
Lacedaemonians would have been a much more difficult task. who
knows so well how to give a hint. both in the
Symposium and elsewhere. what was his conception of humour. in whom the dramatic
element is always tending to prevail over the rhetorical. if any. is not slow to admit a sort of Aristophanic
humour. one who had learned from Antiphon the Rhamnusian--would be
quite equal to the task of praising men to themselves. In this uncertainty the express
testimony of Aristotle. The remark has
been often made. Internal evidence seems to leave
the question of authorship in doubt. or some one writing in his name.
remains uncertain. When we remember
that Antiphon is described by Thucydides as the best pleader of his day. Socrates
himself has turned rhetorician. or what limits he would have
prescribed to himself. How a great original genius like Plato might or might not have
written.
intimates clearly enough that the speech in the Menexenus like that in the
Phaedrus is to be attributed to Socrates. asserted. and that there was no
difficulty in improvising any number of such orations.
'It is easy to praise the Athenians among the Athenians. is not coarse. In either case. in the Phaedrus he has heard somebody say something-is inspired by the genius loci. Nor can we say that the offer of
Socrates to dance naked out of love for Menexenus. Thus in the Cratylus
he is run away with.
On the other hand. as Schleiermacher supposes. is any more un-Platonic
than the threat of physical force which Phaedrus uses towards Socrates. and any one whose teachers had been far inferior to
his own--say. that in the Funeral Oration of Thucydides there is no
allusion to the existence of the dead. in the Symposium he derives his wisdom from
Diotima of Mantinea. and the like. may perhaps turn the balance in its favour. the thoughts are partly borrowed from
the Funeral Oration of Thucydides.
the satire on him and on the whole tribe of rhetoricians is transparent. is not in
favour of the genuineness of the work. having learned of a woman. when he departs from his
character of a 'know nothing' and delivers a speech. Socrates
is not to be taken seriously in all that he says. The address of the dead to the
living at the end of the oration may also be compared to the numerous
addresses of the same kind which occur in Plato.
Whether the Menexenus is a genuine writing of Plato. Aspasia: this is the natural
exaggeration of what might be expected from an imperious woman. or an imitation only. There are merits and there are
defects which might lead to either conclusion. Aspasia. It must be remembered
.out that they had them always ready for delivery. Socrates. But in the Menexenus a future state
is clearly. The form of the greater
part of the work makes the enquiry difficult. in the Rhetoric. but is
rather to be regarded as fanciful.' from the Funeral
Oration. the dialogue has several Platonic traits. the introduction and the
finale certainly wear the look either of Plato or of an extremely skilful
imitator. although not strongly. who quotes. that he must be a good orator because
he had learnt of Aspasia. But he does not impose on Menexenus by
his dissimulation.
The ironical assumption of Socrates. the
mistress of Pericles.
Nor is there any real vulgarity in the fear which Socrates expresses that
he will get a beating from his mistress. in drawing the picture of the Silenus
Socrates. and the fact that they are so. To praise the
Athenians among the Athenians was easy. The excellence of the forgery may be fairly adduced as an
argument that it is not a forgery at all. generally pretends
that what he is speaking is not his own composition.

and they praise those who died in war. in every conceivable form they
praise the city. and they praise ourselves also who are still
alive. and all our
ancestors who went before us. and at the greatness of the city. For you know that there is to be a
public funeral?
SOCRATES: Yes. and not until the fourth or fifth day do I come to my senses
. they delayed the election until tomorrow. I went to the
council chamber because I heard that the Council was about to choose some
one who was to speak over the dead. are
mounting upwards to things higher still. although he may
have been poor. believing yourself to have arrived at the
end of education and of philosophy. Menexenus? Are you from the Agora?
MENEXENUS: Yes. This consciousness of dignity lasts me more than
three days. but I believe
that either Archinus or Dion will be chosen.
SOCRATES: Whence come you. as often happens. are intending to govern us elder men. and all
in a moment I imagine myself to have become a greater and nobler and finer
man than I was before.
SOCRATES: O Menexenus! Death in battle is certainly in many respects a
noble thing. and. when they are under the influence of the speaker. I become suddenly conscious of having a
sort of triumph over them. and an elaborate speech is made over him by a wise man who
has long ago prepared what he has to say. The dead man gets a fine and costly funeral.
MENEXENUS
by
Plato (see Appendix I above)
Translated by Benjamin Jowett
PERSONS OF THE DIALOGUE: Socrates and Menexenus. And whom did they choose?
MENEXENUS: No one. I know. though rather young for the
post. but not if you think otherwise. there are any foreigners
who accompany me to the speech. which
appears to them. and I stand
listening to their words. Socrates. and is included in the
Alexandrian catalogues of Platonic writings.also that the work was famous in antiquity. and become enchanted by them.
MENEXENUS: Yes. And if. Menexenus.
which has always provided some one who kindly took care of us. more
wonderful than ever.
SOCRATES: And what might you be doing at the Council? And yet I need
hardly ask. if you allow
and advise that I should. I have been at the Council. and to have had enough of them. The speakers praise him for what he has done
and for what he has not done--that is the beauty of them--and they steal
away our souls with their embellished words. Socrates. like the rest of your family. I shall be ready to hold office. for I see that you. although he who is praised may
not have been good for much. until I feel quite elevated by their laudations. and they seem to experience a corresponding
feeling of admiration at me.

nor is there any difficulty in
improvising that sort of stuff.
as a master. I am inclined to think that the speaker who is chosen will
not have much to say. Socrates?
SOCRATES: Certainly 'not. in the meantime I have been living in the Islands of
the Blest.'
MENEXENUS: Do you think that you could speak yourself if there should be a
necessity.
SOCRATES: Yes. and rhetoric of Antiphon the Rhamnusian. Such is the art of our rhetoricians. for he has been called upon to speak at a moment's
notice. For she had
been told. and she was ready to
strike me because I was always forgetting. and besides her I had Connus. putting together
fragments of the funeral oration which Pericles spoke.
MENEXENUS: And can you remember what Aspasia said?
SOCRATES: I ought to be able. but yesterday I heard
Aspasia composing a funeral oration about these very dead.and know where I am.
SOCRATES: But why. say. I do. the son of Xanthippus. Menexenus. But there is no difficulty
in a man's winning applause when he is contending for fame among the
persons whom he is praising. my friend. Had the orator to praise Athenians among
Peloponnesians. however. or Peloponnesians among Athenians. for she taught me. and he will be compelled almost to improvise.
might make a figure if he were to praise the Athenians among the Athenians. and if the Council were to choose you?
SOCRATES: That I should be able to speak is no great wonder. for example. as I
believe.
. but which.
MENEXENUS: Then why will you not rehearse what she said?
SOCRATES: Because I am afraid that my mistress may be angry with me if I
publish her speech.
MENEXENUS: You are always making fun of the rhetoricians. Socrates. as you were saying.
MENEXENUS: Do you think not.
MENEXENUS: And who is she? I suppose that you mean Aspasia. that the Athenians were going to choose a
speaker. as she was in rhetoric. should he not have plenty to say? Every
rhetorician has speeches ready made. and in such manner does
the sound of their words keep ringing in my ears.
MENEXENUS: And what would you be able to say if you had to speak?
SOCRATES: Of my own wit. most likely nothing. one who
had learned music of Lamprus. even the pupil of very inferior masters.
partly improvising and partly from previous thought.
considering that I have an excellent mistress in the art of rhetoric. the son of Metrobius. No
wonder that a man who has received such an education should be a finished
speaker. and she repeated to me the sort of speech which he should deliver.--she
who has made so many good speakers. she composed. he must be a good
rhetorician who could succeed and gain credit. and he was my master in music. and one who was the best among all the
Hellenes--Pericles. this
time.

she
bore them and nourished them and received them. but their own true mother. as is meet and by law ordained. It is meet and right. I hope that you will oblige me. for in those days she alone and first of all brought
. The departed have already had
the first. and how shall we rightly
begin the praises of these brave men? In their life they rejoiced their
own friends with their valour. dwelling and living
in their own land.MENEXENUS: Nay. For as a woman proves
her motherhood by giving milk to her young ones (and she who has no
fountain of milk is not a mother).
SOCRATES: Truly I have such a disposition to oblige you. and consoling their fathers and mothers
and the survivors. And I think that we should praise them in the
order in which nature made them good. their nurture and education. What sort of a word will this be. secondly. a stepmother to her children. and their death they gave in exchange for
the salvation of the living. let us by all means have the speech. whose fathers have come from
another country. whether Aspasia's or any
one else's.
The country is worthy to be praised.
SOCRATES: But I am afraid that you will laugh at me if I continue the
games of youth in old age.
she our mother was free and pure from savage monsters. and out of all
animals selected and brought forth man. is that at the time when the
whole earth was sending forth and creating diverse animals. with the mention of the
dead:-. that we should begin by praising
the land which is their mother. and in her bosom they now
repose. she began as follows. For noble words are a
memorial and a crown of noble actions. A word is needed which will duly praise the dead and
gently admonish the living. and above all. and then
let us set forth how noble their actions were. Socrates.(Thucyd. exhorting the brethren and descendants of the
departed to imitate their virtue. is that
she provided the means of support for her offspring. nor are
these their descendants sojourners only. so did this our land prove that she was
the mother of men. and that will be a way of praising their
noble birth. let us have the speech. And a great proof that
she brought forth the common ancestors of us and of the departed. for they were good because they were
sprung from good fathers. Wherefore let us first of all praise the
goodness of their birth. when going forth on their destined journey they were attended on
their way by the state and by their friends. And ought not the
country which the Gods praise to be praised by all mankind? The second
praise which may be fairly claimed by her. since we are alone. but by all mankind.)
There is a tribute of deeds and of words. And the country which brought them up is not like other
countries. and alone has justice and religion. therefore.
And first as to their birth. who may chance to be alive of the previous
generation. no matter. Socrates. as being dear to the Gods. that if you bid
me dance naked I should not like to refuse. tame and wild. Their ancestors were not strangers. which are given to the doers of them
by the hearers. the tribute of words remains
to be given to them. and how worthy of the
education which they had received. but they are the children of the soil. not only by us. who is superior to the rest in
understanding. Listen
then: If I remember rightly.
MENEXENUS: Far otherwise. This is proved by the
strife and contention of the Gods respecting her.
first. if any.

among whom our departed friends are
to be reckoned. which I ought briefly to
commemorate. she gave them Gods to be their rulers and teachers. and shall invoke others to sing of them also in lyric
and other strains.
and therefore their governments are unequal. and to help them in
their toils. Of these I
. and against
barbarians in the common interest of Hellas. and the government of
good men is good. and
which are still wooing the poet's muse.
Thus born into the world and thus educated. in a manner becoming the actors. and to
recognize no superiority except in the reputation of virtue and wisdom. And I must show that our ancestors
were trained under a good government. nor honoured by reason of the opposite. lords of Asia. for the woman in
her conception and generation is but the imitation of the earth. and not
the earth of the woman. which is the best and noblest
sustenance for man. and for this reason they were good. For government is the nurture of man. as in other
states.
and our contemporaries are also good. according to the fancies of men. And first I will tell
how the Persians. whose names
are well known. They are the Gods who first
ordered our lives. And these are
truer proofs of motherhood in a country than in a woman. and
we do not think it right to be one another's masters or servants. but there is one principle--he who appears to be wise and good is a
governor and ruler. Time would fail me to tell of
their defence of their country against the invasion of Eumolpus and the
Amazons.
but there are other worthy deeds of which no poet has worthily sung. and indeed always. Then as now. from that time to this. The basis of this our government is equality of birth.
first hereditary and then elected. They already have their reward. our government was an aristocracy--a form of government
which receives various names. who were our fathers. the children all of one mother. or of
the Heracleids against the Argives. there are tyrannies and there
are oligarchies. and these.
for other states are made up of all sorts and unequal conditions of men.
But we and our citizens are brethren. but to others also. the poets have already
declared in song to all mankind their glory. being nobly
born and having been brought up in all freedom. And of the fruit of the earth she gave a plenteous
supply. and therefore any
commemoration of their deeds in prose which we might attempt would hold a
second place. besides. our brethren. Of these I am bound to make
honourable mention. and is
sometimes called democracy. and I say no more of them. too. who dispense offices and power to those who appear to be most
deserving of them. whom she regarded as her true offspring. or of their defence of the Argives against the Cadmeians. Neither is a man rejected from weakness or poverty or
obscurity of origin. and need not now be repeated. the ancestors of the departed
lived and made themselves a government. and how the
children of this land. held them back. They
were the deeds of men who thought that they ought to fight both against
Hellenes for the sake of Hellenes on behalf of freedom. and afterwards she made
the olive to spring up to be a boon to her children. in which the one party are slaves and the others masters.
And so their and our fathers.forth wheat and barley for human food. not only to her own. did both in their public
and private capacity many noble deeds famous over the whole world. For kings we have always had. and taught us the acquisition and use of arms for the defence
of the country. were enslaving Europe. but the
natural equality of birth compels us to seek for legal equality. And when she had herself nursed them and brought them up to
manhood. and authority is mostly in the hands of
the people.
speaking generally. and instructed us in the arts for the supply of our
daily needs. but is really an aristocracy or government of
the best which has the approval of the many. and of bad men bad.

I
will mention only that act of theirs which appears to me to be the noblest. and the others not to fear them by land. as is meet and fitting. and third in the salvation of Hellas. He who has present to his mind that conflict
will know what manner of men they were who received the onset of the
barbarians at Marathon. therefore. and the second
to those who fought and conquered in the sea fights at Salamis and
Artemisium. the minds of all men
were enthralled by him--so many and mighty and warlike nations had the
power of Persia subdued. in order that they might be
able to tell the king that no one had escaped them. Third in order. and praise their valour. too happy in
having escaped for a time. And from Eretria they
went to Marathon with a like intention. and none of the Hellenes dared to assist either the Eretrians or the
Athenians.
To them. And now the Lacedaemonians as well as the
Athenians took part in the struggle. Cyrus. He who
would rightly estimate them should place himself in thought at that time. as far as Egypt. I assign in my speech the first place. and with his fleet held the
sea and the islands. but that hosts of men
and the multitude of riches alike yield to valour. telling him to bring the Eretrians and Athenians to the king. and after him came his son. and they were numerous.
the one teaching and habituating the Hellenes not to fear the barbarians at
sea. and
subjected the Medes. and Datis
as commander. who were reputed to be amongst the noblest and most warlike of
the Hellenes of that day. because.
I place the battle of Plataea. one might have many things to say--of the
assaults which they endured by sea and land. for that was the action to which
the Hellenes looked back when they ventured to fight for their own safety
in the battles which ensued: they became disciples of the men of Marathon. but he conquered them all
in three days. by his valour freed the Persians. and he
sent 500.
coming to the borders of Eretria and spreading from sea to sea.
if he wished to keep his head on his shoulders. and when he had conquered them. Having
effected one-half of their purpose. He sailed against the
Eretrians. for the men of
Marathon only showed the Hellenes that it was possible to ward off the
barbarians by land. This is
the glory of the men who fought at sea. he searched the whole country after this manner: his soldiers. too. that they dispelled the second
terror which had hitherto possessed the Hellenes. in order that no one might
escape. but the rest were panic-stricken and kept quiet. they were all united in this greatest
. but there was no proof that they
could be defeated by ships.
when the whole of Asia was subject to the third king of Persia. joined
hands and passed through the whole country. and how they repelled them. And so the soldiers
of Marathon and the sailors of Salamis became the schoolmasters of Hellas. they were in the act of attempting the
other. the third king was Darius. and he ruled over the rest of
Asia. and so made the fear of
numbers. and
by the victory which they gained over the barbarians first taught other men
that the power of the Persians was not invincible. and chastened the pride of the whole of Asia. None presumed to be his equal. who extended
the land boundaries of the empire to Scythia. who were their lords. expecting to bind the Athenians in
the same yoke of necessity in which they had bound the Eretrians. and they arrived a day too late for
the battle. whether of ships or men. for of them. the many by the few. to cease among them. and at sea the Persians retained the reputation
of being invincible in numbers and wealth and skill and strength. for the
number and valour of the combatants. who were his countrymen. we had conspired against Sardis. but of our liberties and of the
liberties of all who are on the continent. except the Lacedaemonians. The first
king.
and which followed that of Marathon and came nearest to it.will speak first. who ruled all the
accessible part of Egypt and Libya.000 men in transports and vessels of war. and 300 ships. as he said. And I assert that those
men are the fathers not only of ourselves. Now Darius had a quarrel against us and the
Eretrians.

if any one
doubted the superior prowess of the Athenians in the former war with the
barbarians. wherefore their virtues will be
celebrated in times to come. on the
third day after the battle of Tanagra. leaving the Boeotians. at Sphagia. that they could conquer single-handed those with whom they
had been allied in the war against the barbarians. together with us. and not because of the private
anger of the state destroy the common interest of Hellas. and gave them back.
and who sailed to Egypt and divers other places.
And so the war against the barbarians was fought out to the end by the
whole city on their own behalf. Many also
fell in naval engagements at the Hellespont. and drove
and purged away all barbarians from the sea. our countrymen conquered at
Oenophyta. the Spartans. there succeeded a jealousy of her. and in
this many brave men who are here interred lost their lives--many of them
had won victories in Sicily. For when the Lacedaemonians
had gone on their way. for they proved. but. and
was decided by the engagement which followed. the city was unable to help them. On
the breaking out of war. and our city was held in honour. and they should be
gratefully remembered by us. their very enemies and opponents winning more
renown for valour and temperance than the friends of others. as prosperity makes
men jealous. These were the men who fought
by sea at the river Eurymedon.
and there was a report that the great king was going to make a new attempt
upon the Hellenes. were united against Athens. the king of Persia.
and so she became engaged against her will in a war with the Hellenes. and defeated them in other naval engagements. in their extreme animosity towards the city. considering that they should war with the fellow-countrymen
only until they gained a victory over them. spared their lives. without us. as they are now celebrated by us. and
freed those whom they aided. and are here interred. our citizens met the Lacedaemonians at Tanagra. Afterwards there was a mighty
war. whither they had gone over the seas to fight
for the liberties of the Leontines. And they were the first after the Persian war who fought on behalf
of liberty in aid of Hellenes against Hellenes. after defeating them in a
naval engagement and taking their leaders. But at a
later period many Hellenic tribes were still on the side of the barbarians. had expelled. should have
entered into negotiations with their bitterest enemy. and who went on the expedition to Cyprus. and devastated our country. they again
brought back. After the peace there
followed a third war. and jealousy begat envy. they were brave men.and most terrible conflict of all. and all the hosts. that their doubts had no foundation--showing by their victory
in the civil war with Hellas.
owing to the distance. in which all the Hellenes joined.--him. because they compelled the king in fear for
himself to look to his own safety instead of plotting the destruction of
Hellas. barbarian against Hellenes. and therefore justice requires that we should also make
mention of those who crowned the previous work of our salvation. when
they might have destroyed them. Worthy of praise are they also
who waged this war. which
was very ungrateful of them. and were the first too who were honourably
interred in this sepulchre by the state. There
was peace. but that with
barbarians they should war to the death. in which they subdued the other chief state
of the Hellenes.
and fought for the freedom of the Boeotians. and
made peace. both of
Hellenes and barbarians. whom they were aiding. and righteously restored those who had been unrighteously
exiled. the issue was doubtful. and then. after having in one day taken
all the ships of the enemy. and they lost
heart and came to misfortune. is that the
other Hellenes. to whom they were bound by oaths.
And what I call the terrible and desperate nature of the war. which was of a terrible and desperate nature.
whom they. And then shone forth
. and on behalf of their countrymen. and our countrymen.

and to this day we are still unconquered by them. depriving her of the ships which had once been their salvation. and the city had
rest. And in this instance
she was not able to hold out or keep her resolution of refusing aid to her
injurers when they were being enslaved. and that their business was to subject the
remaining Hellenes. that
they may be reconciled even as we are reconciled. for she could not forget
the trophies of Marathon and Salamis and Plataea. but she was softened. with what moderation did they order the war against the tyrants
in Eleusis. which had preserved their own from falling. but that she was indignant
at the ingratitude of the Hellenes. but the entire war was decided by them. but we were our
own conquerors. which
created among them a friendship as of kinsmen. of which he was the destroyer. when she remembered how they had
received good from her and returned evil. while the Lacedaemonians were thinking that we who were the
champions of liberty had fallen. and received defeat at our own hands. She
thought that she would no longer defend the Hellenes. And that reputation was a true one. and therefore are not interred here. came to
feel the need of us. no one could have desired that his city should
take the disorder in a milder form. and have mutually received and granted forgiveness of what we have
done and suffered. And why should I say more? for the events of which I
am speaking happened not long ago and we can all of us remember how the
chief peoples of Hellas. he
would find only one charge which he could justly urge--that she was too
compassionate and too favourable to the weaker side. and. having made common cause with the
barbarians. and her feeling was that she forgave the barbarians. and came to the rescue with sixty other
ships. but she allowed exiles
and volunteers to assist him. and their valour was confessed of all men. How joyful and natural was the
reconciliation of those who came from the Piraeus and those who came from
the city. but there sprang up war at home. who had severely
suffered at her hands and severely retaliated. Afterwards there was
quiet and peace abroad. and our ships were blockaded at Mitylene. and on such occasions as these to reconcile them with
sacrifices and prayers. and in a manner how unlike what the other Hellenes expected!
And the reason of this gentleness was the veritable tie of blood. but they were unfortunate. if men are
destined to have civil war. This was our
feeling.the power and valour of our city. when enslaved either
by one another or by the barbarians. and delivered the Hellenes from slavery. faithful not in word only. and they were his salvation. And she
. the Persian
king himself was driven to such extremity as to come round to the opinion.
and dismantling our walls. and through
them the city gained the reputation of being invincible. Her enemies had supposed that she was
exhausted by the war. We were never conquered by
others. his
salvation would proceed. And yet by some evil fortune they
were left to perish at sea. who are of the same race with
them.
And if a person desired to bring a deserved accusation against our city.
but in deed. for they conquered their
enemies and delivered their friends. But the
citizens themselves embarked. Ever to
be remembered and honoured are they. And that
such was the fact we ourselves are witnesses. even though
attacked by all mankind. and they were
free until they afterwards enslaved themselves. and did accordingly. After this there was perfect peace.
that from this city. for by their valour not only that seafight was won for us. what is the greatest miracle of all. and from no other. Argives and Boeotians and Corinthians. Whereas. and did in
fact send out aid. and. For they did not attack
one another out of malice or enmity. praying to those who have power over them. And we ought also to remember those who then fell by one
another's hands. for the
defeat which came upon us was our own doing. to the great king
she refused to give the assistance of the state.

asked of us. then. either while he is on the earth or after death in the world
below. About the other allies he was mistaken. and what. many and glorious things I have
spoken of them. that. and in all future time. For neither does
wealth bring honour to the owner. and
we alone refused to give them up and swear. and whatever is your aim let virtue be
the condition of the attainment of your aim. and know that without this all
possessions and pursuits are dishonourable and evil. and there are yet many more and more glorious things
remaining to be told--many days and nights would not suffice to tell of
them. Now
the king fearing this city and wanting to stand aloof. I will tell you what I
heard them say. and yet pass for Hellenes. or from cowardice fall behind. such as were those who fell owing to the ruggedness of the
ground at the battle of Corinth. the event proves that your fathers were brave men. and let every man remind their
descendants that they also are soldiers who must not desert the ranks of
their ancestors. Even as I exhort you this
day.
the enemy was only too glad to be quit of us. when she was compelled. considering that life is not life to one who is a
dishonour to his race. And so. And I think that I ought now to repeat what your
fathers desired to have said to you who are their survivors. Let them not be forgotten. who are by nature
barbarians. And you must imagine that you
hear them saying what I now repeat to you:-'Sons. and that then he might have a pretence for
withdrawing from us. uncontaminated by any foreign element. and the other states. Brave men.
having no admixture of barbarism in us. that you strive to
be the bravest of men. judging from what they then said. but have preferred to die honourably rather than bring
you and your children into disgrace. but. by the favour of Heaven. for the
Corinthians and Argives and Boeotians. if he be a coward. or by treason at Lechaeum. I remind you of them.
for we ended the war without the loss of our ships or walls or colonies. and therefore the
hatred of the foreigner has passed unadulterated into the life-blood of the
city. For we are not like many others. they would make over to him the Hellenes of the continent. and that to such a one neither men nor Gods are
friendly. as the price
of his alliance with us and the other allies. shall
continue to remind and exhort you.herself. notwithstanding our noble sentiments.
too. but we
are pure Hellenes. and fought with the Lacedaemonians on behalf of the Parians. and of others who
have died on behalf of their country. so sound and healthy was the spirit of freedom among us. because we were unwilling to be guilty of the base and unholy act
of giving up Hellenes to barbarians. O ye sons of heroes. and rather than dishonour our own
fathers and forefathers. for we might have
lived dishonourably. they would fain be
saying. and built walls and
ships. he
thinking that we should refuse. Such was the natural nobility
of this city. if they had only speech. and do honour to their memories.
descendants of Pelops or Cadmus or Egyptus or Danaus. and drove the
Lacedaemonians from the sea. whom the Lacedaemonians had previously handed over to him. when they went
out to battle. entered into the war. and
the instinctive dislike of the barbarian. and swore and covenanted. we managed better. we were again
isolated. were quite
willing to let them go. Yet in this war we lost many
brave men. and dwell in the midst of us. because we are pure Hellenes. if he would pay
them money. whenever I meet with any of you. were those who delivered the Persian king. And we were in the same case as when
we were subdued before. and you must celebrate
them together with me.
Such were the actions of the men who are here interred. when he saw the
Lacedaemonians growing weary of the war at sea. Remember our words. in case anything happened to them. of such a one the
. to give up the Hellenes in
Asia.

While we gently heal
their wounds. neither lamenting overmuch. when separated from
justice and virtue. is alike base and dishonourable. to exceed. And such we would have our parents to be--that is our word and
wish. if
they bear their misfortunes bravely. either they will be
suspected of not being our parents. who show in their lives
that they are true men. A mortal man cannot expect to have
everything in his own life turning out according to his will. no one will welcome or receive you. wherefore make
this your first and last and constant and all-absorbing aim. not only us but all your ancestors in virtue. which is the
greatest good. and you
will most likely be victors in the contest. and to
leave none to your successors. when the hour of
destiny brings you hither. and they will please us best if they bear
their loss lightly and temperately. because you have neither money nor
reputation of your own. but
rather let them be our chief and true panegyrists. making the possessor more conspicuous.
And if they will direct their minds to the care and nurture of our wives
and children. Nor does beauty and
strength of body. will be truly deemed brave fathers of
the brave. and will not need any one to stir them up. we shall die. knowing
that to a man who has any self-respect.
'Some of us have fathers and mothers still living. but to have the use of a treasure of wealth and honour. or we of not being such as our
panegyrists declare. he will remember the proverb-"Neither rejoicing overmuch nor grieving overmuch. or changing
with the vicissitude of their fortune.--has his life ordered for the best. nothing is more dishonourable than
to be honoured.--who is not hanging in suspense on other men. And if you follow
our precepts you will be received by us as friends. and as such we now offer ourselves. and really was. and not to condole with one another. and should be glorified rather than lamented. nor
fearing overmuch. but on account of the reputation of
his ancestors. they will
displease us most by making themselves miserable and by taking their
misfortunes too much to heart. they will soonest forget their misfortunes.
He is the temperate and valiant and wise. and we would urge them. but if you neglect our words and are disgraced
in your lives. and they.
when his children are given and taken away. if
possible. but that to be excelled by you is
a source of happiness to us. But if they give way to their sorrows. And we entreat our
fathers and mothers to retain these feelings throughout their future life. and live in a
better and nobler way. let us remind them that the Gods have heard the chief part of
their prayers. Of old the saying. Let not either of the two alternatives happen. wholly. for they prayed. is seen to be cunning and not wisdom. when dwelling in a base and cowardly man. And we shall most likely be defeated. and had men for their sons." appeared to be. This is the message
which is to be delivered to our children. For he
whose happiness rests with himself.
and to be assured that they will not please us by sorrowing and lamenting
over us. for they have sorrows
enough. and if not.
. to bear the calamity as lightly as
possible. and not to himself. And all knowledge. and
manifesting forth his cowardice. if the dead have any knowledge of the living. and know that to
excel you in virtue only brings us shame. if you learn so to order your
lives as not to abuse or waste the reputation of your ancestors.
"Nothing too much. And this. well said. appear comely. and when his riches come and go. if possible. if we are to die at this time. not that their children might live for
ever.
if. as is likely. For our life will have the noblest end
which is vouchsafed to man. not for his own sake.wealth belongs to another." for he relies upon
himself. they have attained. as far
as is possible. But. but that they might be brave and renowned. The honour of parents is a fair and noble treasure to their
posterity. and be dearer to us.
but the reverse of comely.

the highest authority is specially entrusted with the duty of watching
over them above all other citizens. I marvel that Aspasia. and
you. for thus you will be most endeared to the dead and to the
living. go your ways. and do you not admire her. parents. she places in their hands the instruments of
their fathers' virtues. and know what she is like. she would have them from
the first begin to rule over their own houses arrayed in the strength and
arms of their fathers. and still more to you who have told me. Socrates. in full armour clad.
You have heard. I am very grateful to her or to him who told
you. while they are children she is a parent
to them. to imitate your fathers. and then
at some future time I will repeat to you many other excellent political
speeches of hers. for the sake of the omen.
having lamented the dead in common according to the law. and when they have arrived at man's estate she sends them to their
several duties. And
in their name I beseech you. and they will see that your fathers and
mothers have no wrong done to them. the oration of Aspasia the Milesian. is the message which they bid
us deliver to you. you ought to bear your calamity the
more gently. Socrates. Socrates.
SOCRATES: Well. and does not
need any exhortation of ours.
SOCRATES: Well.
.
But we know that she will of her own accord take care of them. And now do you and all.
SOCRATES: Very good.'This is all that we have to say to our families: and to the state we
would say--Take care of our parents and of our sons: let her worthily
cherish the old age of our parents. she never ceases honouring
them. only let me hear them. She is to the dead in the place of a
son and heir. you may come with me and hear her.
MENEXENUS: I have often met Aspasia. and bring up our sons in the right way.
should be able to compose such a speech. and are you not grateful for
her speech?
MENEXENUS: Yes. and to their
parents and elder kindred in the place of a guardian--ever and always
caring for them.
MENEXENUS: Fear not. and take care of you both publicly and privately in any place in
which one of us may meet one of you who are the parents of the dead. and to their sons in the place of a father. and your sorrows will heal and be healed.
MENEXENUS: Truly. to be of good cheer about yourselves. you know yourselves. and bringing freshly to their minds
the ways of their fathers.
and musical festivals of every sort. Menexenus.'
This. holding gymnastic and equestrian contests. if you are incredulous. she must be a rare one. But you must take care not to tell of me. celebrating in common for all rites which become the property of
each. O ye children and parents of the dead. And as for the dead. the children. for we will nourish
your age. for she has made
provision by law concerning the parents and children of those who die in
war. and I will keep the secret. And
the care of you which the city shows. and which I do deliver with the utmost seriousness. desiring as far as it is possible that their
orphanhood may not be felt by them. The city herself shares in the
education of the children. who is only a woman. Considering this. and in addition to this.

SOCRATES: Then I will keep my promise. by Plato
.
End of this Project Gutenberg Etext of Menexus.