Thank you for your post, however I did keep a copy of the PM I sent you, (as I do of all posts and PMs which I put up) we will have to differ over the actual words used, if you continue to insist on the version you have posted. But I simply copied the words from the PM and put them up as a post. But words are not the real reason for you joining this forum, are they???

It is clear that the children at the SES schools were seriously abused in many ways. These are not WORDS they are ACTIONS. These actions have been witnessed and confirmed by many people. There has been an Inquiry and much of it has been documented. This is the best reason to get involved with this forum - ACTIONS of others which have been verified as being wrong.

Also there is the question of the criminality of those actions by SES teachers at the children's schools. This was stated in the report, but it appears there will not be any court action. However, we know that real guilt is not to do with whether the CPS decide there is enough "evidence" for a case to be won , but it is to do with the facts of what happened witnessed by so many. I sense the injustice of this as it is my profession to deal with those people who break the law of this land, and to serve them with notices if I deem it is fit to do so.

You are one of those, who as a child was abused, leaving you with good reason to join this forum and seek to revenge in some way, or draw attention to those unlawful actions. But what has happened over the three or so years since you joined?

It would seem that the ammunition which you came with to fire at those actions has been exhausted. The people you sought to attack have been attacked and survived it. What to do now? If you now had no bad feelings in you due to the past - you would perhaps be just like anyone else - i.e. with no need to attack anyone. But it would appear you do still have bad feeling in you from those actions in the past. And quite rightly so - I would say -- especially as you have not yet got justice for what happened. I really wish I could help with that, but it is not the legal field in which I work, so I am not an expert in that subject.

So no justice yet !! So it seems the only option left for you is to attack someone else. Maybe not those who come on the forum who show they have similar complaints that you have. That would be unacceptable. So maybe attack those who come on the forum who show some positive attitude and try to help with giving information to help others. Or attack those who still support SES or philosophy in some way.

But you cannot attack the ACTIONS of those on the forum, as you do not know them, neither do you know anything about them. So the only option is to attack their WORDS in some way. And when a person comes on the forum who is still at SES you call him an "idiot." Just because you did not like the WORDS he put on the title of the new stream. It is as if, because he is at SES he is not really a person with human feelings like the rest on the forum. But when it appears he may have feelings after all, and he might be as human as all those others who were also once at SES but have since left, then you see that you have made an error to have called him an "idiot".

My dear GD is it not time to consider that this forum has served its purpose for you over the business of the ACTIONS for which you joined? And that to stay wasting your time picking holes in the WORDS of people you do not know, is far, far away from the reason that you originally joined??

Do you really know what benefit will come to you or anyone by attacking my WORDS? Do you know who you are attacking? How do you know whether or not I am a member of several British professional institutions recognised globally? How do you know whether or not I was, many years ago appointed by the Deputy Prime Minister's Office? and after a long enquiry into my person was given statutory powers to be a stand alone officer with the power to issue legal notices with no reference to any one else? How do you know what the subject of my Doctorate is? and whether or not I have been invited to Universities in Britain and Europe to give talks on that subject? How do you know whether or not I am considered to be a world authority on the subject of my Doctorate, for which I have spent 35 years of my life researching - practicing and writing a book about to inform others???

The truth is you do not know if any of these things are what I contribute to society. The above are just words written by me. You cannot know if they are true or false, as you do not know me. You can attack them as much as you like. Because we had a saying when I was at school. "Sticks and stones may break my bones - but names will never hurt me.!" I have lived by that saying all my life. And have never let the words of others upset me in any way. After all they are only WORDS. They are not ACTIONS and you know nothing of the actions for which I am responsible, and for which many thousands of people may have received real benefit.

The truth is I really sympathise with the situation of not getting justice for criminal ACTIONS done. And I am sure you had good reasons to delete/ edit the 20 or so posts which now read "XXX". As much as I have good reasons to edit any post where I have made a mistake in the words or consider that it is not beneficial to the subject of the stream to remain there in the original form.

If you really get the point of this post - you will perhaps consider calling a truce in your one sided battle. (i.e. only you will benefit from such a truce as I am not fighting) . Also I have no intention to launch a counter attack in the way that you have. I only seek to understand the errors of others - I have never seen any benefit in simply throwing abusive words at people - just because I did not like their WORDS.

Best wishes for the future.

Last edited by Dr.Alan on Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

SES - London 1964-1974 left due to SES interference with private life.

Thank you for your post, however I did keep a copy of the PM I sent you, (as I do of all posts and PMs which I put up) we will have to differ over the actual words used, if you continue to insist on the version you have posted. But I simply copied the words from the PM and put them up as a post. But words are not the real reason for you joining this forum, are they???

It is clear that the children at the SES schools were seriously abused in many ways. These are not WORDS they are ACTIONS. These actions have been witnessed and confirmed by many people. There has been an Inquiry and much of it has been documented. This is the best reason to get involved with this forum - ACTIONS of others which have been verified as being wrong.

Also there is the question of the criminality of those actions by SES teachers at the children's schools. This was stated in the report, but it appears there will not be any court action. However, we know that real guilt is not to do with whether the CPS decide there is enough "evidence" for a case to be won , but it is to do with the facts of what happened witnessed by so many. I sense the injustice of this as it is my profession to deal with those people who break the law of this land, and to serve them with notices if I deem it is fit to do so.

You are one of those, who as a child was abused, leaving you with good reason to join this forum and seek to revenge in some way, or draw attention to those unlawful actions. But what has happened over the three or so years since you joined?

It would seem that the ammunition which you came with to fire at those actions has been exhausted. The people you sought to attack have been attacked and survived it. What to do now? If you now had no bad feelings in you due to the past - you would perhaps be just like anyone else - i.e. with no need to attack anyone. But it would appear you do still have bad feeling in you from those actions in the past. And quite rightly so - I would say -- especially as you have not yet got justice for what happened. I really wish I could help with that, but it is not the legal field in which I work, so I am not an expert in that subject.

So no justice yet !! So it seems the only option left for you is to attack someone else. Maybe not those who come on the forum who show they have similar complaints that you have. That would be unacceptable. So maybe attack those who come on the forum who show some positive attitude and try to help with giving information to help others. Or attack those who still support SES or philosophy in some way.

But you cannot attack the ACTIONS of those on the forum, as you do not know them, neither do you know anything about them. So the only option is to attack their WORDS in some way. And when a person comes on the forum who is still at SES you call him an "idiot." Just because you did not like the WORDS he put on the title of the new stream. It is as if, because he is at SES he is not really a person with human feelings like the rest on the forum. But when it appears he may have feelings after all, and he might be as human as all those others who were also once at SES but have since left, then you see that you have made an error to have called him an "idiot".

My dear GD is it not time to consider that this forum has served its purpose for you over the business of the ACTIONS for which you joined? And that to stay wasting your time picking holes in the WORDS of people you do not know, is far, far away from the reason that you originally joined??

Do you really know what benefit will come to you or anyone by attacking my WORDS? Do you know who you are attacking? How do you know whether or not I am a member of several British professional institutions recognised globally? How do you know whether or not I was, many years ago appointed by the Deputy Prime Minister's Office? and after a long enquiry into my person was given statutory powers to be a stand alone officer with the power to issue legal notices with no reference to any one else? How do you know what the subject of my Doctorate is? and whether or not I have been invited to Universities in Britain and Europe to give talks on that subject? How do you know whether or not I am considered to be a world authority on the subject of my Doctorate, for which I have spent 35 years of my life researching - practicing and writing a book about to inform others???

The truth is you do not know if any of these things are what I contribute to society. The above are just words written by me. You cannot know if they are true or false, as you do not know me. You can attack them as much as you like. Because we had a saying when I was at school. "Sticks and stones may break my bones - but names will never hurt me.!" I have lived by that saying all my life. And have never let the words of others upset me in any way. After all they are only WORDS. They are not ACTIONS and you know nothing of the actions for which I am responsible, and for which many thousands of people may have received real benefit.

The truth is I really sympathise with the situation of not getting justice for criminal ACTIONS done. And I am sure you had good reasons to delete/ edit the 20 or so posts which now read "XXX". As much as I have good reasons to edit any post where I have made a mistake in the words or consider that it is not beneficial to the subject of the stream to remain there in the original form.

If you really get the point of this post - you will perhaps consider calling a truce in your one sided battle. (i.e. only you will benefit from such a truce as I am not fighting) . Also I have no intention to launch a counter attack in the way that you have. I only seek to understand the errors of others - I have never seen any benefit in simply throwing abusive words at people - just because I did not like their WORDS.

Best wishes for the future."Last edited by Dr.Alan on Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.SES - London 1964-1974 left due to SES interference with private life. Later found a True Teacher of Advaita Vedanta in India.

Dear GD,My apologies for not answering your last question, " So, where does lying and dishonesty fit in with the Shankaracharya Tradition?"

But unfortunately it may mean I need to refer to documents from ancient India - which I know you may have an aversion to. However, believe me or not as you like, but the ancient tradition does have integrity and has served real value to many millions of people in its proper form. Albeit, as we know, in the SES form it does not do that.

The Advaita Vedanta system of philosophy was inspired for the purpose of replacing lost virtues which may not be easy to get in the age in which we live. So first we will see what that means.

Vedanta is ancient - more so than even many modern Indians realise. The path for which it stands is governed by the moral, social, psychological and spiritual conditions in which human society has to survive. This path towards understanding life and the universe has four legs on which it stands. They are - in order - Austerity, Purity, Compassion and Truthfulness. The path cannot work without these four.

Human society can live under a variety of conditions, where one or more of these four legs are missing. Each person who wishes to travel on the path, needs to first realise what is missing in the society in which he or she is born. Thereafter the need is to make up the deficiency so that travel on the path is made possible with all four legs understood and practiced.

Indian philosophy encapsulates the above idea in the concept of the four ages of human society. These four ages altogether encompass many hundreds of thousands of years. But the important point as far as we are concerned here is, what is the difference in the four ages.

Satya Yuga, age of truth - All four legs are prevalent - hence the path is open to all.

Treta Yuga - The age standing on three legs. (Treta = three). In this age Austerity is the missing leg.

Dvapara Yuga - (Dva = two) here Austerity and Purity are missing. Therefore the path needs a two leg deficiency to be made up.

Kali Yuga - age of darkness. Here the only leg remaining is truthfulness. With the other three missing in normal society the balance is tipped too far away from the path, such that many will not even consider that there is any value in following it.

It is said that we have lived now in the Kali Yuga for about 5,000 years.

If any school ,which teaches Advaita Vedanta, is being in any way untruthful, then the last leg of support has been taken away. This means they literally do not have "one leg to stand on" in their claims and methods of teaching Advaita Vedanta.

The standards of truthfulness for the Advaita Vedanta path are higher than the world would apply, as they include omission of any detail as also being untruthful. i.e. in a court of law you would be held in contempt by making untrue statements but not by omitting to say something which you knew was material evidence. Also a defendant can tell untruths without the risk of being held in contempt. We must be more honest than all of these.

With the nine mistakes listed above in other posts, it is clear that SES are being very untruthful. So they have taken away the last leg of support which we have in this age, and there is therefore very very little chance that anyone following the SES method will reach a satisfactory end to their journey on the SES path.

The Advaita Vedanta system has been part of the whole communal and social fabric of India for thousands of years. If the same system is to take root in any other country it has to be by a careful and intelligent transplantation process. It cannot be uprooted and planted in a completely different environment and then be expected to work. To try and get an oriental plant to flourish in a different climate and in different soil, is better done by culturing seeds and nurturing them until they are strong and slowly become acclimatised. The method of using mass teaching combining western educational and religious institutional systems, has not proved to bring any real measure of success in the last 60 or more years. It is time for a major re-think for all those involved.

It is because the leaders have not fully experienced the whole path which they teach, with all the issues which that entails; that they are not in a position to guide their members fully into a situation of proper changes in the right way and for the right purposes. Hence, the concept of what Self-realisation is becomes arrested without them knowing that this has happened. Leading to a false concept of Self-realisation and the result that members think they know what it means based on the new feel and the changes which have come into their lives. This method may not create sustainable change for the good.

However, it would be true to say that if philosophy was taught in the same way as any other subject at any normal evening class, without asking participants to change their lives or commit themselves in any way, then most of the nine mistakes would disappear. This would leave the individuals to seek their own path when the time is right.

I hope this answers the very relevant question about truthfulness and the Shankaracharya Tradition. It is clearly just about the most important issue in the age we live.

SES - London 1964-1974 left due to SES interference with private life.

I found your post above about the ‘four legs’ of the Vedanta tradition to be very interesting. I wonder if you know anything about the contradictions the Hindu ancient text ‘The Laws of Manu’ poses to the ideal of ‘truthfulness’, since some of it concerns keeping people deliberately in ignorance, including in some cases deliberate deceit. The ideals from the 'Vedanta' tradition and this work do not seem to fit together to me. This work is mentioned on the MacLaren Foundation website, where it is stated that an aspect of the spiritual path that Leon MacLaren followed included ‘a disciplined lifestyle based on the Laws of Manu’. (Link to full quote: http://www.maclarenfoundation.net/articles2.htm). I wonder if you feel you could shed any light on this?

Dear Leonie,Where you say "since some of it concerns keeping people deliberately in ignorance" I presume you mean to say the Laws of Manu may say this and not the life style of MacLaren et. all. However, you do not say in what source you found this " keeping people deliberately" in. I looked at the site you gave ref to.

We have to be careful when using the word Hinduism in connection with Advaita Vedanta . Read my post dated 19th Jan on page two of this stream. The two are not the same thing at all. When religious types get hold of a valuable and /or powerful teaching, we know from history that this often gets into the hands of "lesser beings" as it were - those who either do not fully understand the language or want to use it for selfish ends --- or both of these things.

The whole purpose of the Shankaracharya Tradition is to attempt to avoid this, by setting up a system where selfish ends are not accepted in any way. It is a very difficult matter to control in this age, where there is a strong tendency to selfishness in most people. Believe me, it is a very very difficult thing for the human being to root out every iota of this from all thoughts, words and actions. Selfishness is very subtle. It can be doing good for others - but mainly because the doer of good gets a good feeling from it. Although we do not frown on such behaviour, we must admit there is a tinge of selfishness in it.

But it is also possible to do what you do, however good it may be for others, and however much praise others may give -- but with no change in ones own inner state, if there is no claim on the results etc.

"That person attains Peace who lives devoid of longing, freed from all desires and without the feeling of "I" and "mine". Bhagavad Gita chapter 2 verse 71

As far as I can find - there is no such reference to the matter you mentioned in the Laws of Manu. Perhaps you can let me know if you have a particular reference.

However, I should add that the Laws of Manu are not a feature of Advaita Vedanta or the Shankaracharya Tradition, per se. Although these laws (chapters 2 to 6) may include matters for the preservation of scriptural subjects (the Vedas), they do not lay down any behaviour for those who follow a particular spiritual path. They deal with the worship of gods etc. - but all these things are really aimed at providing better conditions and controls of the "secular" and social / economic life of the community as a whole. I say "secular" because this is a relatively modern concept of human society. A the time of Manu - there was no such distinction between the religious and other social sides of human communities. The Vedas as such do not have an Advaita (non-dual) aspect to them. They cover every aspect of human behaviour, education, religion, government etc. etc. but are not that helpful for those who seek liberation in the spirit from all these things including Self-realisation. For that we need to look into the clauses added at the end of the Vedanta documents = veda - anta. = (veda ends) these are called the Upanishads and are the experience and advice from souls who themselves became liberated and can therefore point us in the right direction.

Hope that helps.

Best wishes

Last edited by Dr.Alan on Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

SES - London 1964-1974 left due to SES interference with private life.

Be also careful of German philosophers. There are some good ones, such as Meister Eckhart and Jacob Bohme. Most of the others I find are more lost than MacLaren was. It is very tricky when we do not have an authoritative reading list. Hence, it is difficult to know who to take seriously and who not. But some German philosophers as much as German psychiatrists - are very lost souls when it comes to the matters of the human psyche which are not measurable with the five human senses.

The quote you give seems to be the opinion of a "learned" person - but it may not be able to be substantiated in real life - if you know what I mean. I usually fight shy of opinions as such - and look for authoritative texts which have a practical value in my life.

I say the above - because even if someone wanted to specifically study Advaita Vedanta -- there are many written works which will mislead you and confuse you. We should understand that the Advaita Vedanta system as taught by Shankara became modified by some other great teachers who followed after Him. This gave rise to at least two other main schools of Vedantic thought. They are the Vishisht-advaita or modified non-dual system and the Dvaita or dualistic system.

The Vishisht-advaita recognises that students cannot easily connect with there being only one reality. Hence it teaches that Ishvara (God), Jivatman (the individual) and the material world are all three real separate entities; yet Jivatman and the world are both part of, and dependent on, Ishvara. The Dvaita system however, teaches that these three entities are always and forever separate from each other.

These two systems and other variants of these, all call themselves Vedanta and use the same scriptures to prove their philosophy. This is not an incorrect way of teaching their systems. Hence, they use all the same Sanskrit terms to explain their way etc. giving many meanings to some Sanskrit words. The books and commentaries which have been written on these other systems do not always declare which system they are propounding. Therefore, it is confusing and non-productive for a student of Advaita Vedanta to read them for help on the path.

I have not had any need for studying the Laws of Manu - although I do have a searchable text of them if I need to find a reference. But I do not believe there is material in them which would support what the Germans have said. We need to know the particular upbringing of any author of books - so that we can try to discover what background that person has in their understanding of certain concepts - and hence their own interpretation of - not only the words they read - but also the words they use. The same applies to translators. This is why I always seriously research an authors background if I am going to take seriously what that person says. It is not easy to do - but we need to try and put on the mental cloak of the author when reading their books - unless of course we can question the actual author - or a line of authoritative people who are connected with the author. Books alone are quite dangerous in serious subjects. We must be careful with books. This is the reason for the Advaita Vedanta oral tradition - where all value in the books is backed by someone who has experienced all those things as well - and can point in the right direction.

best wishes

SES - London 1964-1974 left due to SES interference with private life.

So to recap - for those who read this far - who must have (A) accepted there is a truth. (B) accepted that it can be known and (C) accepted that someone knows it. But that they can't tell me and be sure that I would understand. So now what do I do ?? This is where the tradition of Arundhati Nyaya comes in.

Arundhati Nyaya tradition relates to a small, almost invisible star in the sky. But on a very clear night it is just possible to see it. A man, who knows which one it is, is supposed to show the star to his new wife sometime after the wedding on a clear night. But how is that possible? It is almost invisible and there are thousands and thousands of them up there on a clear night. Fortunately there is a traditional method.

You go on to explain this story....

I think this is really sweet! The point being as you explained it in your post (and in a PM to me) is that each 'seeker' can only see so far at a time, and it is the job of the spiritual Teacher to take that person forward towards the 'light' in a way that they can understand and experience for themselves - is that about right?

Like you say the Teacher has to be sure the 'seeker' (or 'disciple') is genuine, and the 'seeker' has to be sure the 'Teacher' is genuine too. This takes time. I found this relationship beautifully described in the Sufi mystic, Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee's, Teacher's book 'Daughter of Fire'. (Irina Tweedie was his spiritual Teacher).

Firstly, one will need to have to accept that Hindu Mythology is real, that the Puranas are real accounts of the times, that the Yugas exist and time is cyclic. None of these have yet been substantiated and therefore, you either believe them or not. If the Kali Yuga is 5000 yrs old then it began in 3000BCE. Findings in Egypt show burials dating back to 6000 BCE.The Australian Dreamtime is said to be at least 40,000 yrs old and tells the evolvement of Gondwanaland, the human species on it, the movement of the stars and planets and what happens to the human and animal spirits. Should this Mythology be dismissed as being more primitive than the Vedic one.

we all have to accept or not many things in our lives. Some need to be taken on trust until we find out for our selves.

There is one important thing you may have missed and therefore you may not have considered whether you need to accept it or not.

It is quite simply that some people find the philosophy subject interesting and beneficial in their lives.

You both do not find it of much interest - it seems. But this does not give you any position of authority in it - only puts you in the position of those who "Grumble and weep."

Perhaps you believe in the modern idea that it all began with a big bang - examine the scientists' explanation of that event. Then come to your own conclusion whether it is language bordering on madness and unbelievable stupidity - or maybe you think it makes sense. There was no one there to witness it by the way.

OR maybe you believe in the Higgs Bosun particle - which is so incredibly small and exists for the smallest period of time that anyone can imagine. Yet it is supposed to control our whole existence ??? Read the description of that as given by the scientists. Then come to your own conclusion whether it is language bordering on madness and unbelievable stupidity - or maybe you think it makes sense. There will never be anyone there to witness one of these things and hold it up to show another that it really exists - so that we can experience it for ourselves.

For those who are interested - which does not seem to include you two - Advaita Vedanta makes a million times more sense than modern scientific non-sense. Think about it. If you can.

But if you are not interested in Advaita Vedanta philosophy - no one said that it is compulsory to do so - and in my opinion you are not less than anyone who does take an interest. Maybe you should think along those lines a bit. i.e. we are all human beings taking an interest in things we like, and we should not denigrate others on the grounds of their particular interests.

Or you can carry on grumbling and weeping if you want. Your life is your choice - I respect that. Let others alone in their choice too. If you are proud to be a human being that is.

GD - if you want to see a really chaotic thread - look at the "PR man arrested -- " one.

SES - London 1964-1974 left due to SES interference with private life.

Dr Alan you can’t help yourself but make one of your arrogant, presumptuous and sweeping statements about people on this forum. You have no notion of what one believes in, follows or accepts. By your posts, you epitomize what goes wrong with some followers of Advaita Vedanta in that they become very ego centred. So one can’t question what you post here, you want to play the “King”; you are right, everyone else here is wrong. We have to accept ‘carte blanche’ everything you post, is that it? You can play the ‘King ‘if it makes you feel good and superior to others. Doesn’t Hamlet say: ." I'll have groundsMore relative than this—the play's the thingWherein I'll catch the conscience of the King."Reminds me also of Robert Bolt’s words in “A Man For All Seasons” when he has Thomas More saying:“Some men think the Earth is round, others think it flat; it is a matter capable of question. But if it is flat, will the King's command make it round? And if it is round, will the King's command flatten it? “