Don’t Kill the Messenger

Feminism vs. transgenderism

This conversation is not an easy, but an important and necessary, one. Please bear with me as I introduce a subject that seems either politically incorrect or certainly forbidden. Some of you may not have even heard it. It involves individual choice, once a basic American principle that has morphed into the extreme control over our lives of late stage capitalism. For the sources of control. Just follow the money, if you are not doing so already.

First I want to underline the difference between gender and transgender. We all are assigned a gender at birth and it is based upon what sex we seem to be. Mistakes are made, but how many? According to the latest statistics, 700,000 individuals identify as transgender in the U.S. alone. They have no doubt that they were born into the wrong body and most will undergo hormone treatment and surgery to right that wrong.

I was one of the early feminist psychologists who brought forth the term “gender” in order to distinguish what was learned, even unconsciously, from what was determined genetically. That was an enormous first step, as every aspect of a human being was believed to be tied to sex. Everything from pink to blue blankets, dolls to trucks, were considered to be part of a biological predisposition. If you were a boy and you liked to dress up, then you were inevitably destined to be gay, a word that was whispered if spoken at all in the 1950’s. Instead, there were code words used that only those who were supposed to understand them and did. Very few individuals would “Come out of the Closet “ and, if so, at great peril

The development of the field of gender was designed to discover how much of these preferences were genetic and how much socialized from that first blanket. The field of gender is now 50 years old and has discovered much, including that sexual orientation cannot be changed by therapy or surgery or any other value based schemes. It is a given. The growing field of epigenetics does show clearly that the environment is quite active in turning off and on some genes, but not in altering basic sexual orientation.

On the cultural side, gay marriage has been legalized in many places in the world and gay people are just being given the opportunity to lead regular normal lives. These are simple human rights.However, gender was never meant to be interpreted as being in the"Wrong Body" or subject to medical treatment, which procedure began in the 1966.

Fluidity is possible. Sexual attractions that develop are possible. There're so many terms available rightness for sexuality that they soon must all morph into just that, sexuality of every imaginable kind.

Yet reinforcing the binary and demanding that one's body be altered to fit one's ideas is not scientific at all, but medical in the sense of following the money.This surgery which is now commonly available in white Western contexts is a way to make money for the medical establishment and for Big Pharma. Each of these 700,000 individuals, should they undergo the procedures, will spend several hundred thousand dollars, will suffer many side effects as there arena long term studies on the effects of a lifetime of hormones or the complex surgery involved.

Before White America and Europe existed, any indigenous cultures had the concept of three or even five genders and lived happily with these ideas. On virtually every continent throughout history, societies with more than two genders thrived. No one was cut or mutilated, as it was natural. No one profited from it in the range of billions of dollars.

My point is not only to support gender fluidity and nuance, but to question how the Western medical professions took hold of sexuality and enforced the binary so strictly that only by medical procedures that bring the human body into conformity with two sexes can this fluidity be permitted. The medical profession continues to enforce this binary to the cost of anywhere from $50,000 to hundreds of thousands of dollars for dangerous and not always successful genital mutilation and transformation of facial features.

I am not including in these costs a lifetime of taking hormones, which undoubtedly will be causing cancer and other illnesses in future generations. Who else is to benefit? This is similar to the promiscuous use of opiods in today’s society. These procedures have not been studied long enough even to tell us what the medium long term effect might be. Suddenly they became not only permissible, but forbidden to discuss. Most importantly, transgender people are mostly eager to reinforce the binary that Western White culture has forced upon us, reinforcing the extreme binaries and stopping the movement and behavior toward fluidity and exploration of nuance and preference of sexuality in favor of the rigid binary. This must stop.

I deny no one the right to live as they or he or she or ze wishes and to wear clothing and makeup and adopt culturally ascribed behaviors to express their gender identity. Each of us should have civil rights and human rights, but the medical professions must be held to a scientific and not financial standard.

The individual has every right to learn the nuances and practices of who they are. We are all different and those decisions should not be made for us by multi-billionaire capitalist medical and pharmaceutical companies . This industry did a fine job of replacing women as medical doctors in the past centuries. It must not be allowed to replace nature again.

Society has no reason to honor or humor delusional thoughts. A man who thinks he's Napoleon, a parakeet or a Chinese woman needs help for mental illness, not a new selection box on legal documents.
s?

And a man who thinks he's attracted to another man is delusional? As I've pointed out to you when you posted your same objection earlier, people do not actually believe they are physically the other gender by birth. So your deliberate misunderstanding is the only issue here, and you didn't even do a convincing job of playing dumb either.

Find something more constructive to do with your time than whining and bellyaching about gender fluidity. Your obsession on this alone says perhaps more about you than I may want to know.

Homosexuality was not referenced in my comment. A gay man understands he is a biological male.

wrote:

As I've pointed out to you when you posted your same objection earlier, people do not actually believe they are physically the other gender by birth.

They believe in their minds they are the opposite sex of the sex they were born. Genital surgery does nothing to alleviate the suicidal ideation these patients feel.

wrote:

Find something more constructive to do with your time than whining and bellyaching about gender fluidity.

If I don't comment, someone less qualified will, as you have proven.

wrote:

Your obsession on this alone says perhaps more about you than I may want to know.

I'm never going to pretend a dangerously-thin anorexic is fat to validate her feelings, or encourage a man to jump from a 4-story roof because he thinks he can fly. You're willing to defend mental illness--and have the rest of us play along with what is abnormal--rather than treat it. Sad!

Homosexuality was not referenced in my comment. A gay man understands he is a biological male.

It wasn't excluded either, and so my point stands 100% because it's all about what's in your mind. What one is attracted to is a mental thing, just as what one feels that one is in erotic terms.

wrote:

They believe in their minds they are the opposite sex of the sex they were born.

Actually you're wrong. Show me a quote from recent articles in this blog that say that. They don't. You just made that up off the top of your head. People generally aren't that stupid.

wrote:

Genital surgery does nothing to alleviate the suicidal ideation these patients feel.

Ah, so if they believe they need surgery, it suggests they don't actually believe they were born the other gender in biological terms. Please learn how to make a basic point without tripping over your own logic.

I'm never going to pretend a dangerously-thin anorexic is fat to validate her feelings, or encourage a man to jump from a 4-story roof because he thinks he can fly. You're willing to defend mental illness--and have the rest of us play along with what is abnormal--rather than treat it. Sad!

You've advanced the same inept analogy before. You're presenting patently circular arguments where the starting point is obviously already unhealthy, such as jumping off a roof. Gender self-identity is more like being gay in the sense that it's not obviously dangerous. But good job on your poor attempt to prove a point by begging the question, as the logical fallacy is called.

It wasn't excluded either, and so my point stands 100% because it's all about what's in your mind. What one is attracted to is a mental thing, just as what one feels that one is in erotic terms.

This little attempt at sophistry on your part is mediocre at best. Or do you really believe that all thoughts/beliefs automatically = reality?

wrote:

Actually you're wrong. Show me a quote from recent articles in this blog that say that..

It's possible you're simply not understanding. Gender dysmorphia by definition is the belief (delusion) that one has been born in the "wrong" biological body and that the patient believes themselves to be something other than what biology dictates, a definition which extends to race, height, weight, etc.

wrote:

Ah, so if they believe they need surgery, it suggests they don't actually believe they were born the other gender in biological terms.

You're making this way more complicated than it is. The gender dysmorphic believes s/he has the "wrong" genitals the same way an anorexic with ribs showing still sees a fat woman in the mirror.

wrote:

Gender self-identity is more like being gay in the sense that it's not obviously dangerous.

You're arguing that the transgender delusion is harmless. The high suicide rate among transgenders indicates otherwise. It's also harmful to society when it's forced to "pretend" with the force of law that biological reality is merely a social construct.

This little attempt at sophistry on your part is mediocre at best. Or do you really believe that all thoughts/beliefs automatically = reality?

I've already explained to you many times that what they believe is that they feel different from what they physically are, not that they physically are. Your repeated and childish attempts to reframe that to an obvious absurdity doesn't even rate as mediocre.

wrote:

It's possible you're simply not understanding. Gender dysmorphia by definition is the belief (delusion) that one has been born in the "wrong" biological body and that the patient believes themselves to be something other than what biology dictates, a definition which extends to race, height, weight, etc.

Actually, you're not understanding. So for example, biology does actually dictate (in the sense you mean it) that a man should be attracted to a woman. But many men do not feel that way. His genitals are designed to mate with a woman's genitals, yet he "disagrees" with that biological "dictate". And you might take note that just like your opinion on this matter, even medical experts also thought that homosexuality was likewise a "disease" and a "delusion" of some sort, and that with the proper education and therapy, it could be "fixed".

wrote:

You're making this way more complicated than it is. The gender dysmorphic believes s/he has the "wrong" genitals the same way an anorexic with ribs showing still sees a fat woman in the mirror.

Actually, you're making it way more complicated yourself. And you're also presupposing the argument in a circular way (again). To state that he believes he was born with the wrong genitals is really just an expression of the feeling that one feels different from the gender one is biologically. That's just a feeling, not a delusion any more than that a gay man feels attracted to other men. There was a time, as I pointed out, when that was also considered a "delusion" which required "therapy".

wrote:

You're arguing that the transgender delusion is harmless.

In many cases it is harmless.

wrote:

The high suicide rate among transgenders indicates otherwise.

Well, the suicide rate among gays was high when it was considered "sick". In fact, in some societies (today) not only are you more likely to commit suicide if you're gay, but the government will actually put you to death for being gay, if not being thrown off the rooftop summarily.

So, actually, it is people like you with your attitude that it's sick that in fact upsets people like this. So, in a way, you've forced your own conclusion.

wrote:

It's also harmful to society when it's forced to "pretend" with the force of law that biological reality is merely a social construct.

Uh, no. You suddently shifted the argument (again, and it's getting really tiresome). You're denying that one can feel like a different gender. You presumably would say one can only feel attracted to someone else of a either gender, regardless of biological dictate, but that doesn't apply to how you feel about yourself.

wrote:

You're trying to make a medical issue into a moral issue. It isn't.

Actually, you're trying to make a moral issue into a medical one, just as they did with homosexuals in the past. It isn't.

I've already explained to you many times that what they believe is that they feel different from what they physically are, not that they physically are.

That's what I've said, many times now. The difference is transgenderism is an abnormal mental condition you refuse to acknowledge as such.

wrote:

So for example, biology does actually dictate (in the sense you mean it) that a man should be attracted to a woman. But many men do not feel that way. His genitals are designed to mate with a woman's genitals, yet he "disagrees" with that biological "dictate".

The difference you're not understanding is a gay man is a biological male, and recognizes he's a biological male. A gay man is still a man. A man who thinks he's a woman is still a man. It's harmful to the trans-fellow to respect his delusion, just as it's harmful to agree with an anorexic she's fat.

wrote:

...even medical experts also thought that homosexuality was likewise a "disease" and a "delusion" of some sort, and that with the proper education and therapy, it could be "fixed".

You're making a false comparison. A gay man may inform others he's gay, a transgender man may inform others he's a woman. According to biology, the latter isn't, and never can be. Every cell in Bruce Jenner's body is still male no matter what he looks like.

wrote:

You're denying that one can feel like a different gender.

No, I'm not. That's the definition of gender dysmorphia. Where we disagree is you believe delusions are OK as long as they "harm no one," and you think if society was just tolerant of gender dysmorphia it, "wouldn't be a problem." But it IS a problem regardless of whether or not society shares the delusion.

Example: A woman who thinks she's a man becomes a soldier. She will still lack upper body strength and testosterone and will still have periods unless she takes massive amounts of drugs. Those are liabilities in the field.

Another example: a man who does nothing to change his appearance informs the government he's a woman, and is therefore entitled to government's affirmative action loans for women-owned businesses. In your model of reality, the man gets the loan. (He also gets the loan if he's White but declares himself Black, the next-level of crazy known as "trans-racialism").

The left is busily trying to rewrite reality itself, and Mother Nature isn't having it.

That's what I've said, many times now. The difference is transgenderism is an abnormal mental condition you refuse to acknowledge as such.

Actually, as I've pointed out many times, that's what they also said about being gay. They said being gay was an abnormal mental condition.

wrote:

You're making a false comparison. A gay man may inform others he's gay, a transgender man may inform others he's a woman. According to biology, the latter isn't, and never can be. Every cell in Bruce Jenner's body is still male no matter what he looks like.

You can't be that much of a dunce! You can't even make a cogent argument. Let's break down the analogy exactly symmetrically, so you have a chance of grasping where it fails.

If a gay man informs others he's gay, that's like a transgender man informing others he's transgender. See? You repeat the word in both cases. Grasping that? No problem there.

Furthermore, if you ask a gay man which biological gender he is, he'll say he's man. If you ask a transgender man which gender he is, he'll give you the correct biological answer. See how that works? He's not delusional at all. If he were delusional, he wouldn't get the operation right, because he'd be confused about his actual biological identity. Are you catching on?

wrote:

You're denying that one can feel like a different gender.

wrote:

Example: A woman who thinks she's a man becomes a soldier. She will still lack upper body strength and testosterone and will still have periods unless she takes massive amounts of drugs. Those are liabilities in the field.

A silly argument which I've already addressed. Furthermore, you know of course, that many women in top training could outfight men, just like a good number of women are taller than men?

As for periods and testosterone in your hilarously dated example, I'd say that hormones have gotten more men in trouble on the job than women. Few women have caused more misery and damage to their coworkers than the hormone induced sexual rampages of the likes of Bill Clinton, JFK, Bill Weinstein, Trump, and Roy Moore. When women have their hormone-induced periods, they hardly cause that kind of mayhem.

wrote:

Another example: a man who does nothing to change his appearance informs the government he's a woman, and is therefore entitled to government's affirmative action loans for women-owned businesses. In your model of reality, the man gets the loan. (He also gets the loan if he's White but declares himself Black, the next-level of crazy known as "trans-racialism").

That's a political problem, not a medical one, though I can see you're trying so so so hard to make it otherwise. It's the exact equivalent to not allowing gay men to marry and have benefits, etc.

wrote:

The left is busily trying to rewrite reality itself, and Mother Nature isn't having it.

Sure, the left may be going a bit far with their legal changes, but that's just a political matter you can favor or not, just like gay marriage.

If you ask a transgender man which gender he is, he'll give you the correct biological answer.

But he won't! A man doesn't refer to himself as a "man, only transgendered" he claims he's actually a woman (inside), and demands you refer to him as a "she" or be arrested (fortunately not the law...yet).

A woman soldier playing at being a man requires external chemicals which may or may not be in supply on a battlefield, thus, a SHE is a liability.

You can't have an answer to the political questions because there are none that make sense. "Wishing" to be something else erases your affirmative action causes.

But he won't! A man doesn't refer to himself as a "man, only transgendered" he claims he's actually a woman (inside), and demands you refer to him as a "she" or be arrested (fortunately not the law...yet).

If you ask a transgendered man what his biological birth gender is, he'd give you the correct answer, or he'd know he's lying. If he actually believed he was already the biological gender he'd like to be, he wouldn't have the sense to get the operation.

You really have so much trouble with that obvious logic.

wrote:

A woman soldier playing at being a man requires external chemicals which may or may not be in supply on a battlefield, thus, a SHE is a liability.

Actually, I guess you don't know that in many of those fields, they are making women pass the same training requirements as men. And you realize also that many women are in fact stronger than many men. Not only do some women weigh more and are taller than some men, but they are actually stronger. So it's all about the selection process. Your concept that women are misplaced simply because they're women is provably nonsensical merely by the fact that there is overlapping physical variation between the genders on all kinds of measures.

Why don't you sign up for one of the very common foot races in every American city and see what you can do? The participants these days tend to be 60% women, and sometimes even more than that in the half marathons, 10k's, and 5k's. Try running those, and you'll see that there are countless women who will beat the crap out of you on speed and endurance. Case closed.

that in most of the non-White world, like South Africa for example, being gay is no big deal and being trans is celebrated. I am assured by the New Yorker and the Huff Po, that the same is true in Iran and the UAE. Just ignore those acid attacks, stonings and folks being thrown off buildings. Those are white Trump supporters who are just trying to slander the open minded, tolerant locals. I am told that the US is the most racist and sexist and biased country on Earth, so it must be true. My gender studies professor told me so, and xe is never wrong. Gay pride is huge in Pakistan. Right?

In Iran they force gays and lesbians to transition under threat of imprisonment to make the gay go away. There's a whole lot more going on with this issue than 'being born in the wrong body' - a concept that in itself is unproven and makes no logical sense. Suffering from dysphoria doesn't mean that you're literally the opposite sex somewhere deep down inside. This issue is social and political, not biological. It's rooted in homophobia, sexism and sometimes sexual fetish. For example the multiple 'genders' that exist in some cultures are only ever available to males. Females are not allowed out of their pink prison. This is why girls and women in some cultures are forced to pretend to be boys or men just so that they can enjoy their basic human rights. Similarly, the majority of people who transition in the West are young women who are usually lesbian. Sexism, homophobia, peer pressure and the spread of queer ideology on social media are driving this phenomenom. It's clearly political and social, not biological. The argument that it's biological is unproven and can't even be explained without reference to harmful, sexist sterotypes that harm girls, women, gays and lesbians in particular.

In Iran they force gays and lesbians to transition under threat of imprisonment to make the gay go away.

OK so far.

wrote:

There's a whole lot more going on with this issue than 'being born in the wrong body' - a concept that in itself is unproven and makes no logical sense. Suffering from dysphoria doesn't mean that you're literally the opposite sex somewhere deep down inside.

And suddenly you're not that far from what you complain is the Iranian attitude about gays and lesbians. You're artfully mischaracterizing the concept so as to set up your own fake "logical inconsistency". I could just as well argue that gays and lesbians produce no natural offspring, so the concept is inherently biologically pointless, and therefore "goes against nature" -- all arguments out of the same dusty attic as yours.

Gay and lesbian sexual attraction exists, regardless of whether it serves any biological function. 'Gender identity' and the notion of being 'born in the wrong body' are theories based on the fact that some people experience dysphoria about their sex. It does not follow that they're therefore the opposite sex, any more than it follows that dysphoric anorexics are fat. There is no evidence for a male or female 'identity' that exists somewhere in the brain and that you can somehow get the 'wrong' brain in the 'wrong body'. You either are a particular sex or you aren't. This nonsensical idelogy is what actually erases homosexuality. Homosexuality is defined by sex. If you claim that 'gender identity' is what defines you as a man or a woman, then the logical conclusion is that homosexual attraction is now irrelevant. And this is actually happening in gay and lesbian communities where transwomen in particular are calling lesbians 'transphobic' for not considering sexual relationships with males who 'identify' as women. It's an inherently homophobic and sexist ideology, which would explain why conservative societies like Iran are so enamoured with it. In many cases it's the new gay conversion therapy.

Gay and lesbian sexual attraction exists, regardless of whether it serves any biological function. 'Gender identity' and the notion of being 'born in the wrong body' are theories based on the fact that some people experience dysphoria about their sex. It does not follow that they're therefore the opposite sex,

Nobody said they're the other sex -- you're just making that up so you have a target for your fake argument.

wrote:

any more than it follows that dysphoric anorexics are fat.

Wrong analogy. Women who want boob jobs don't believe they're actually women with big boobs born into a body with small boobs. You might say they are suffering from dysphoria about not being happy with their body, but that's a "judgement", not so much a direct medical fact, just like gays were deemed "sick" before and not now.

The problem with your theory is that you're making up a particular theoretical internal experience point of view to make your whole argument. If you want to be objective, you look at the external statements and results. A woman imagines a life with big boobs is what she wants to be. So to keep it objective, you observe that she says she wants a boob job, and she gets the operation. Changing one's sex is a bit more involved, obviously, and requires more discussion and assurance about the intent, but objectively isn't any different. So then you come along with your fake argument by trying to artfully word a woman's wish for having big boobs as "believing she is born in the wrong body with small boobs" and it's therefore a "mental disturbance", well, you've just made up your own fake strawman.

Your argument is transparently silly. Try harder.

wrote:

There is no evidence for a male or female 'identity' that exists somewhere in the brain and that you can somehow get the 'wrong' brain in the 'wrong body'.

Exactly, just like there is no evidence that gayness or straightness exists somewhere in the brain and that you can somehow get the "wrong" brain to be attracted to the wrong thing.

A woman getting breast implants is a woman getting breast implants. A man getting surgery to superficially look like a woman is a man getting surgery to superficially look like a woman. He is not a literal woman. Transwomen routinely claim that they are, and that even simply 'identifying' as a woman is enough to make them literally female. This is objectively false. Homosexuality is an objective fact. The evidence is that there are people who are gay or lesbian. There is no need to prove it with brain scans etc. because it's self evident, unlike a man who says he's a woman. Only homophobes would say that being attracted to the same sex is somehow wrong.

A woman getting breast implants is a woman getting breast implants. A man getting surgery to superficially look like a woman is a man getting surgery to superficially look like a woman. He is not a literal woman.

Exactly. A woman with breast augmentation is not literally a woman with larger breasts, but she looks that way and feels that way. Exactly the same for transgenderism. You're just trying so hard to make a distinction. Fail.

wrote:

Transwomen routinely claim that they are, and that even simply 'identifying' as a woman is enough to make them literally female.

A woman with breast augmentation might claim they're real, etc. Exactly what do you mean "literally a female". You just made up that phrase. No, if you asked them, what is your DNA, they should give the correct answer. If they do say "literally", which I don't think they do, and you just made it up, it would be in reference to their feelings.

wrote:

This is objectively false.

No it isn't if they're talking about their feelings. They're not claiming their DNA changed. Fail.

wrote:

Homosexuality is an objective fact.

Oh, so now mental states are objective, not "objectively false". You know, you're a real piece of work. Can't even keep your logic straight.

wrote:

The evidence is that there are people who are gay or lesbian. There is no need to prove it with brain scans etc. because it's self evident, unlike a man who says he's a woman.

No, he says he feels like a woman -- it's a mental state. A gay man says his preference is a mental state. There is nothing in his DNA that says it.

wrote:

Only homophobes would say that being attracted to the same sex is somehow wrong.

And so then only a transgenderphobe would say that it's "somehow wrong".

You have utterly failed to make the distinction. All you do is use different labels for the two. They are both states of mind when they say the "feel" such and such. And an operation further enhances it. And hormones actually have the effect to some degree. That's actually more objective than being gay, which is a purely mental thing as far as we can tell at this point.

"In Iran they force gays and lesbians to transition under threat of imprisonment to make the gay go away.

OK so far."

Wow, so, you're okay with mass murder? Sure you are not part of ISIS? Well, the bible does say to kill gays (Leviticus 20:13), so, being a good follower of the bible then?

" gays and lesbians produce no natural offspring, so the concept is inherently biologically pointless, and therefore "goes against nature"" THOUSANDS of species practice homosexual behavior. And yet the same species are still here.... huh...

As far as Trans goes... multiple studies have shown that the brain structure of a Trans matches the gender they identify with. They have known this as far back as 2013.

You're the one with the bad analogies. A woman getting breast implants is getting them to make herself have bigger breasts. She's not saying that getting breast implants literally turns her into something else that she clearly is not. She's just a woman with breast implants. Likewise people who are gay or straight are evidently gay or straight, ie. they are males or females attracted to the opposite sex. Their sexuality is self evident. Transgender people are not evidently what they claim to be, by definition. They are males or females who claim to be the opposite sex due to the existence of some inner 'gender identity'. There is no evidence for the existence of gender identity. The definition of gender identity itself relies not on medical science or a medical test, but on social stereotypes and gender roles that are inescapably sexist and homophobic. I'm not creating straw men. I'm responding to the claims of transgender people. I'm not sure what you're arguing to be honest. You seem to have gone off on a tangent about boob implants. Maybe you should try harder to stay on point. Although I understand that logical consistency and coherence is not the strong point of this ideology.

A woman getting breast implants is getting them to make herself have bigger breasts. She's not saying that getting breast implants literally turns her into something else that she clearly is not.

Actually, she believes she's turned into a woman with bigger breasts.

wrote:

She's just a woman with breast implants.

Oh, and you know what they actually think, all of them? That's a bit much to bank on. The external analogy remains the same.

wrote:

Likewise people who are gay or straight are evidently gay or straight, ie. they are males or females attracted to the opposite sex. Their sexuality is self evident. Transgender people are not evidently what they claim to be, by definition.

Actually, you goofed again. A transgender person will say he's transgender, or will at least recognize that they are such. A gay person will say he's gay. A transgender person will not believe theire DNA is actually different from what it was at birth. Your argument is a total fail.

You're the one who's going off on a tangent that it's their internal experience that's different, a subjective thing which you make up to fit your argument. Externally and objectively, there is no difference.

Lol. A woman who suddenly has larger breasts due to a boob job is still a woman. She just has bigger boobs due to the implant, regardless of what she thinks about them. And I'm going by what transgender people themselves say, and by the legal and medical definitions of 'gender identity'. That is that 'gender identity' can mismatch with sex, that 'gender identity' literally makes a man a woman or vice versa. Meanwhile the objective fact remains that transgender people remain the sex they were born as, and 'gender identity' is based in nothing more than sex stereotypes and roles, according to both the legal and medical definition. As for gays and lesbians they have no need to prove that they're gay or lesbian. Their sexual orientation is self evident. In regards to transgender people it is not self evident that they're actually the opposite sex. Their feeling that they are may be real, but their feelings don't prove what sex they are. Their bodies do. Science does. Sorry.

Lol. A woman who suddenly has larger breasts due to a boob job is still a woman.

You're confusing elements of an analogy to the original argument. Nobody suggested that a boob job would change the gender.

wrote:

She just has bigger boobs due to the implant, regardless of what she thinks about them. And I'm going by what transgender people themselves say, and by the legal and medical definitions of 'gender identity'. That is that 'gender identity' can mismatch with sex, that 'gender identity' literally makes a man a woman or vice versa. Meanwhile the objective fact remains that transgender people remain the sex they were born as, and 'gender identity' is based in nothing more than sex stereotypes and roles, according to both the legal and medical definition.

That's essentially correct. They don't actually believe that they are genetically of the other gender as you repeatedly incorrectly claimed.

wrote:

As for gays and lesbians they have no need to prove that they're gay or lesbian.

Actually, "coming out" is a big deal for many of them. But sure, if they say they're gay, everyone believes it. But that also applies to transgendered people. If they say they're transgendered, people believe them, except for doofuses like you who whine and complain about god knows what. If they're transgender they're transgender, and they can, in fact, prove it.

wrote:

Their sexual orientation is self evident. In regards to transgender people it is not self evident that they're actually the opposite sex.

Hey, doofus, you're having trouble thinking again. So let me review it again for you. They do NOT think they are actually genetically the opposite sex. They think they are transgendered. And they IDENTIFY as the other gender in society, and they actually FEEL that way, especially with hormone treatments, and actually sexually can FUNCTION that way because of an operation. Those are realities, whether you like it or not.

wrote:

Their feeling that they are may be real, but their feelings don't prove what sex they are. Their bodies do. Science does. Sorry.

You're really confused. I don't think any transgender person thinks their DNA changed. They know they're transgender. You seem to have a lot of trouble grasping a basic concept.

"Transwomen are women". Transgender people say this all the time. Its currently projected onto buildings in London in protest of women who speak the plain truth that women and lesbians are females, not men who 'identify' as women. "I identify as female" (or male) is precisely what transgender people claim. They literally claim to be the opposite sex. Where have you been? It's telling that all you've got is name calling. You have no coherent argument against the illogic, hypocracy and gross sexism and homophobia of this movement.