FADO07 wrote:Just wanted to survey the collective wisdom of TLS on a tough question:

I have marginal T-14 numbers (17x, low 3 GPA) and think I could probably muster at least one T-14 acceptance, though probably at sticker. I've got no interest in biglaw, and could probably get some money at a T30. Thinking gov or public interest, and know that I might need to rely on an lrap.

Does it make sense to shoot for T-14 at full boat and plan to rely on lrap, or should I shoot for a large scholarship?

I know this is personal question, but I appreciate your help.

edit: for title

if the T14 has a good LRAP that's probably the best bet, but there's always the risk that you change your mind or don't get a PI job. I think T14 is tcr overall, here.

if by low 3.0 you mean lower than 3.3, then you probably only have a great shot at the splitter friendly T14 like NW... you could easily strike out at the T10.

I wouldn't pay Cornell sticker for PI/gov jobs, but they are an exception: a ridiculously pricey school, outside of major urban areas (which are hubs for the jobs you want, and for a lot of those jobs externing during the school year could be a major benefit... something you may not be able to do in Ithaca, but something you could for sure do in Chicago or DC.)

Last edited by Borhas on Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

NYC Law wrote:I don't see why you wouldn't go to the T-14. You'd have better chances of getting a job and the debt load won't really matter since you'll be using IBR + LRAP. Most T-14s have better LRAP programs anyway.

Noval wrote:If you go to a T-14(Or any Law School in general) paying sticker, BigLaw will be your only option left equivalent to a "good job".

But if BigLaw is your goal, the better ranked your school is = the better your odds are to get a job there, but you'll still have to work your ass off in 1L to "stand out" of the crowd.

Tell yourself that the market is shit, and a "good job" in Law, BigLaw or not will require you to go to a good school and do well from there, if possible, at the lowest possible cost.

Do everything to NOT pay sticker.

Don't trust the Canadian. He knows not of what he speaks.

Considering many T14's are still managing 40-60% in the worst legal economy in recent memory to NLJ250 firms, I doubt you have to stand out. He also completely misses the boat on LRAPs. Do not do EVERYTHING not to pay sticker if you have to go to a school with a high debt load cutoff for an LRAP with a decent scholarship over a school with a great LRAP at sticker.

Fuck that, more than half of your stats are ass pulled and nothing else, unless we talk about a Top 5 or Top 6, paying sticker is still a pretty damn bad idea, LRAP or not, but if you're a gambler you can always do it american-style and then open another JD Underground website.

Noval wrote:Fuck that, more than half of your stats are ass pulled and nothing else, unless we talk about a Top 5 or Top 6, paying sticker is still a pretty damn bad idea, LRAP or not, but if you're a gambler you can always do it american-style and then open another JD Underground website.

With your numbers and goals I'd consider the GW binding early app w/full tuition. WUSTL will get you goodo money and they place decently into midwestern gov jobs. Illinois gives splitters decent money too. Those will be your best T30 options, if you have WE you have a good chance at NU sticker and depending on what 17x and low 3 mean your other options are probably going to be GULC and Cornell (though neither of those are guaranteed). GULC places well into gov plus has a pretty good LRAP. If I had your priorities that GW full tuition thing is what I would try for first (though you may have eto be invited to apply im not sure) and GULC would be my second option.

Noval wrote:unless we talk about a Top 5 or Top 6, paying sticker is still a pretty damn bad idea

I like how you insinuate that Columbia and Chicago are decent at sticker yet schools like Northwestern, Michigan, Virginia, etc are magically somehow a "pretty damn bad idea."

+1. Look at employment stats. Sure, there's a bit of a difference between the T6 and the rest of the T14, but it's not that big. The reality is that anything other than HYS is similarly risky at sticker, with the possible exceptions of Cornell and Georgetown.

OP, as someone pursuing public interest, I made the decision that T14 is worth it for me because of the superior LRAP. If I end up in a PSLF-qualifying job, I'll actually be paying less for T14 at sticker than I would have at a lower-ranked school with a scholarship.

NYC Law wrote:I don't see why you wouldn't go to the T-14. You'd have better chances of getting a job and the debt load won't really matter since you'll be using IBR + LRAP. Most T-14s have better LRAP programs anyway.

OP, I find this advice pretty bad. Currently, you might think that paying sticker for a T-14 and using their "better" LRAP upon graduation is a good idea; but three years from now, you might wish that you would have taken the money at a T25 which provided you with greater job flexibility (because of having minimal debt). So if I were in your shoes, I would apply to a wide range of schools, see which school(s) give you the best scholarships, and then decide.

In my opinion, outside of HYSCCN (and their admissions departments would laugh at my application), I think paying 200k for a law degree is a terrible investment.

Noval wrote:unless we talk about a Top 5 or Top 6, paying sticker is still a pretty damn bad idea

I like how you insinuate that Columbia and Chicago are decent at sticker yet schools like Northwestern, Michigan, Virginia, etc are magically somehow a "pretty damn bad idea."

+1. Look at employment stats. Sure, there's a bit of a difference between the T6 and the rest of the T14, but it's not that big. The reality is that anything other than HYS is similarly risky at sticker, with the possible exceptions of Cornell and Georgetown.

OP, as someone pursuing public interest, I made the decision that T14 is worth it for me because of the superior LRAP. If I end up in a PSLF-qualifying job, I'll actually be paying less for T14 at sticker than I would have at a lower-ranked school with a scholarship.

I just find it funny that Cornell outperforms every T14 in NLJ250 placement with the exception of Chicago, yet people still bash it on here...

Look at the NLJ250 stats for previous years and you'll see why. Cornell's performance in 2010 was a result of NYC's recovery relevant to other major markets. Its performance in 2010 is not indicative of its true placement power.

I just find it funny that Cornell outperforms every T14 in NLJ250 placement with the exception of Chicago, yet people still bash it on here...

Look at the NLJ250 stats for previous years and you'll see why. Cornell's performance in 2010 was a result of NYC's recovery relevant to other major markets. Its performance in 2010 is not indicative of its true placement power.

I just find it funny that Cornell outperforms every T14 in NLJ250 placement with the exception of Chicago, yet people still bash it on here...

Look at the NLJ250 stats for previous years and you'll see why. Cornell's performance in 2010 was a result of NYC's recovery relevant to other major markets. Its performance in 2010 is not indicative of its true placement power.

so why didn't other NYC schools do better than cornell?

Because Columbia and NYU have more students that self-select into clerkships and public interest.

And I wasn't bashing Cornell. It's a great school with great employment prospects. But it (along with Georgetown) tends to lag a bit behind the rest of the T14. Not a lot, but enough to make it slightly riskier.

I just find it funny that Cornell outperforms every T14 in NLJ250 placement with the exception of Chicago, yet people still bash it on here...

Look at the NLJ250 stats for previous years and you'll see why. Cornell's performance in 2010 was a result of NYC's recovery relevant to other major markets. Its performance in 2010 is not indicative of its true placement power.

I'm not quite sure I understand your argument. Are you stating that you believe that Cornell's 2010 performace outperformed it's true placement power in a decent/stable economy? Or are you stating that Cornell's 2010 performance was indicative of it's performance in a decent/stable economy?

Are you also suggesting that NYC's recovery is much stronger than other markets becuase I'm not sure that I agree with that statement. I've read in other threads that students at some T14's were told not to shoot for NYC because it was actually recovering slower than other markets. If that's the case, it could be possible that Cornell's grads snatched up some of the other jobs that students from other T14's were told not to shoot for. That [u]could[u] account for Cornell's excellent 2010 performance.

I just find it funny that Cornell outperforms every T14 in NLJ250 placement with the exception of Chicago, yet people still bash it on here...

Look at the NLJ250 stats for previous years and you'll see why. Cornell's performance in 2010 was a result of NYC's recovery relevant to other major markets. Its performance in 2010 is not indicative of its true placement power.

so why didn't other NYC schools do better than cornell?

Because Columbia and NYU have more students that self-select into clerkships and public interest.

And I wasn't bashing Cornell. It's a great school with great employment prospects. But it (along with Georgetown) tends to lag a bit behind the rest of the T14. Not a lot, but enough to make it slightly riskier.

Yep, you got me. I was hoping you wouldn't notice that I will be attending a law school other than Cornell and am therefore unable to make accurate or objective judgments based on available data. Damn your sleuthing powers.

Yep, you got me. I was hoping you wouldn't notice that I will be attending a law school other than Cornell and am therefore unable to make accurate or objective judgments based on available data. Damn your sleuthing powers.