DoomYoshi wrote:Why can't there be two World XLs? We already have many maps of the world.

Christmas is a good map. It is the only defensible special map.

Let's just say I'm on that list nobodies could give you .

@nobodiesI think it's rather silly to have members of the entertainment team unsupervised make these maps. Focus lies on "unsupervised", as they're not even experts at map making so they definitely need the feedback and help of at least some foundry regulars.I don't mind seeing them making maps in "semi" secret as long as not too many maps are being made this way, and that the end product is a good looking and enjoyable map.But in all honesty I don't see why they should make these maps in the first place! It's not really logical that the entertainment team handles special maps when we have map specialists that could handle it better.It's like putting CA's in charge of special events or tournament organizing, it just doesn't make any sense!

AoG for President of the World!!I promise he will put George W. Bush to shame!

thenobodies80 wrote:but look at my africa II map, done behind the scenes (just because there was a good cause to support) but with the collaboration of a small group of valid people, people who knows about maps.

you keep telling yourself that it won't make it true but you'll maybe get some peace of mind.the "good cause" excuse was used by all other "secret" map makers."hey it's for christmas, it's for a good cause""hey an easter map will make people happy so it's a good cause"

also while i agree your map is much better than crap like st.pattrick's day or christmas it's still far from being what it could have been had it been through a proper foundry process.the map was done behind the scenes and placed in final forge. this means that only minor tweaking will be done when in fact the map needs quite extensive work.

thenobodies80 wrote:Personally I've decided to not give my support in the development of new behind the scenes map

would have been nice to reach this decision before you actually gave your support and made the africa map.

“In the beginning God said, the four-dimensional divergence of an antisymmetric, second rank tensor equals zero, and there was light, and it was good. And on the seventh day he rested.”- Michio Kaku

Natty,if you want to listen mine advice, just leave foundry imediatly, remove your project and move away. You only talk to wall, and you only lost your nerves. Thenobodies are not person who are responsibile for this decision. If Admin decide ,then you can not change this . Admin have powers to do everything,even when this its against hes own rules(classic Art and all other secret maps), so dont expect that you can win in this case, no mather how much you are right. This is hes games,and hes field, and hes rules.Sad but true.

Well, I wasn't going to post here any more, but a couple more thoughts:

Why do we need an entertainment team to create special maps? If those guys really want to make maps, they should just go to the foundry and do it like the real mapmakers do. If we need some "surprise" maps, fine, create a special project for them... it seems to me like the only reason we get maps made by the entertainment team is because the entertainment team wants to feel useful.

Funny thing is, look at the most popular map on the site, Classic. When classic was revamped, the situation was completely different from what it is now. The revamp of classic map wasn't given to some secret clubhouse of the entertainment team, no, it was made by a mapmaker in the foundry. It started out as just another foundry map, World Cities, until it was decided that this map should be made into the new classic, and then it was developed as the new Classic map in the foundry like all the other maps.

If the atmosphere had been then what it is now, the maker of World Cities would probably have been told "hey, you have to stop making your map, we're going to make a new classic map and yours is too similar"...

What changed between now and then? The answer is obvious, lackattack no longer trusts the Foundry to create the best possible maps for the site, despite all the evidence showing that maps made outside the foundry are inferior in quality every time.

natty dread wrote:What changed between now and then? The answer is obvious, lackattack no longer trusts the Foundry to create the best possible maps for the site, despite all the evidence showing that maps made outside the foundry are inferior in quality every time.

I think that is pretty false analysis. If Lackattack no longer trusted the Foundry, he'd probably just shut it down, and I can't ever see him doing that.

We have only a small number of seasonal or special maps that were created outside of the Foundry, and this number will always stay low. And going forward, project maps will have a Foundry development period as well.

natty dread wrote:What changed between now and then? The answer is obvious, lackattack no longer trusts the Foundry to create the best possible maps for the site, despite all the evidence showing that maps made outside the foundry are inferior in quality every time.

I think that is pretty false analysis. If Lackattack no longer trusted the Foundry, he'd probably just shut it down, and I can't ever see him doing that.

We have only a small number of seasonal or special maps that were created outside of the Foundry, and this number will always stay low. And going forward, project maps will have a Foundry development period as well.

--Andy

why must their be project maps? would it not be better for the community if there were contest where people posted drafts and the map with the most votes received approval for development?

And by better for the community, i mean both the players who then get to decide what maps get developed if they so choose, and the map makers where the rights to make these maps is based on merit instead of something else. I don't see the justification to having some maps be developed privately even in seasonal maps...let alone non-seasonal maps.

There have been very few real project maps, which I see as different from Seasonal maps, though I can see how some would lump them all together. Project maps usually have a specific aim, in addition to the entertainment value (which is usually what a seasonal map strictly is) The Classic map is a great example of such a project map. The theme, some gameplay, and some graphics were solidified in the project stage before heading to the Foundry. We're essentially just following that example again for a special project. And we really have few such special projects!

natty dread wrote:What changed between now and then? The answer is obvious, lackattack no longer trusts the Foundry to create the best possible maps for the site, despite all the evidence showing that maps made outside the foundry are inferior in quality every time.

I think that is pretty false analysis. If Lackattack no longer trusted the Foundry, he'd probably just shut it down, and I can't ever see him doing that.

We have only a small number of seasonal or special maps that were created outside of the Foundry, and this number will always stay low. And going forward, project maps will have a Foundry development period as well.

--Andy

Well if World XL will be seasonal map,then this is totaly diferent thing.But then who will be crazy to create World XL to be seasonal map? Small number of seasonal maps? 10-15 maybe?For what i notice Natty can start creating WORLD XL, and in any moment someone fro madmins can jump and say "change this ,its will be similar to our map", and in this way Natty will dont have chance to finish map, because he dont know how this "project-seasonal map look".You realy need to alove Natty to get acces to this hiden forum, so that he know how need to work on hes map.

AndyDufresne wrote:project maps will have a Foundry development period as well.

you mean the beta period?

that's just a little more than nothing.nothing major is changed in beta.at most a few bonuses will be tweaked and some very minor graphic nitpicks will be solved.any problems that require a lot of work will be dismissed and not fixed.so basically the map is still 99% decided behind the scenes and the foundry's influence is minimal.

look at africa 2 map which is much much better than any other map ever made in secret.the impassables not only look bad/wrong/funny but they're also hard to spot properly. the connections are completely counter-intuitive and without bob there's a very high chance you'll make mistakes.so any subjective graphical flaws put aside, the map has a major problem. despite a very easy classic style gameplay, it actually manages to be a complicated map "thanks" to its poor design. i highly doubt thenobodies will start redesigning the map now to change this.the map will most likely remain as it is, people will play it now that it's new then once they see how it plays the interest in it will quickly fade away.

“In the beginning God said, the four-dimensional divergence of an antisymmetric, second rank tensor equals zero, and there was light, and it was good. And on the seventh day he rested.”- Michio Kaku

AndyDufresne wrote:project maps will have a Foundry development period as well.

you mean the beta period?

that's just a little more than nothing.nothing major is changed in beta.at most a few bonuses will be tweaked and some very minor graphic nitpicks will be solved.any problems that require a lot of work will be dismissed and not fixed.so basically the map is still 99% decided behind the scenes and the foundry's influence is minimal.

look at africa 2 map which is much much better than any other map ever made in secret.the impassables not only look bad/wrong/funny but they're also hard to spot properly. the connections are completely counter-intuitive and without bob there's a very high chance you'll make mistakes.so any subjective graphical flaws put aside, the map has a major problem. despite a very easy classic style gameplay, it actually manages to be a complicated map "thanks" to its poor design. i highly doubt thenobodies will start redesigning the map now to change this.the map will most likely remain as it is, people will play it now that it's new then once they see how it plays the interest in it will quickly fade away.

I'm slow, yes it's true...lok at austro hungary i think it took 2 years of my life to have it in the way i wanted it!Moreover I don't have much time in this period since I'm involved in some RL things and other stuff CC Related but I'm working on the map with the free time I have to fix the issue about the connections that are hard to understand ( i think you 're referring to bridges). So be patient I will solve the issues but not for the foundry, but for the players. I have no rush like many others in the foundry have to see the map quenched. Said that, i don' t think the map has a poor design,in fact many loves it for exaclty for that reason, but more a uncommon design, that is different.

I do NOT visit this site and I'm NOT Team CC anymore.All PMs are autobinned. If you need to contact me, you should already have a way to do it without using this site.Thanks to those who helped me through the years.

thenobodies80 wrote:I have no rush like many others in the foundry have to see the map quenched.

I'm not sure who is in a rush for it to be Quenched...

If there is a special project map, I think that a lot more than 3-5 people are needed to overview it. There are many different things in maps that many different people see and critique. A large part of the community thinks that maps begin at the BETA stage and don't look at a map until it gets to BETA and then jump in the thread with complaints. These complaints need to be addressed before BETA. This is the same with the special maps.

So, if there are going to be special projects, they either need to go through the foundry or give many foundry regulars access to the forum where a special project is going on. I think at least 20 people need to be involved in making a map. It's not just a single person for gameplay, graphics, and XML.

I do NOT visit this site and I'm NOT Team CC anymore.All PMs are autobinned. If you need to contact me, you should already have a way to do it without using this site.Thanks to those who helped me through the years.

thenobodies80 wrote:Some answers, I'll leave you natty for the final one, since you're the only one who really knows what we're talking about.

kylegraves1 wrote:

DoomYoshi wrote:.....Christmas is a good map. It is the only defensible special map.

+1

this make me laugh, i like that map but I know the "secrets" behind it, who draw the background picture, the names on the map, etc...In any case what you said sound strange to me because I can provide a long long list of people who find it horrible and hate it.This is a confirmation of the fact all maps have a reason and shouldn't be axed because there's always someone who like them.

I still think one of the presents should be named Doom since it is my favourite map

I will not stand for an America where reckless bankers and suicide bombers can make a mockery of our promise for tomorrow.

thenobodies80 wrote:Some answers, I'll leave you natty for the final one, since you're the only one who really knows what we're talking about.

kylegraves1 wrote:

DoomYoshi wrote:.....Christmas is a good map. It is the only defensible special map.

+1

this make me laugh, i like that map but I know the "secrets" behind it, who draw the background picture, the names on the map, etc...In any case what you said sound strange to me because I can provide a long long list of people who find it horrible and hate it.This is a confirmation of the fact all maps have a reason and shouldn't be axed because there's always someone who like them.

I still think one of the presents should be named Doom since it is my favourite map

natty dread wrote:Why all the secrecy and lack of transparency in the process? If they were truly confident in the quality of their work, they'd post their map right alongside mine in the foundry and let the community decide which one is better. Let the better map survive, not the one that has special protection... if I'd get beaten in honest competition, I'd be fine with that, but this is just wrong.

That sounds like a good idea. What's preventing the above suggestion from happening?

natty dread wrote:Why all the secrecy and lack of transparency in the process? If they were truly confident in the quality of their work, they'd post their map right alongside mine in the foundry and let the community decide which one is better. Let the better map survive, not the one that has special protection... if I'd get beaten in honest competition, I'd be fine with that, but this is just wrong.

That sounds like a good idea. What's preventing the above suggestion from happening?

i don't know who's making the secret map but if it's somebody with no map making experience he's probably afraid he'd lose in an honest competition.

also one other reason could be the fact that the admins want to make the map quickly and because the foundry nitpicks every little detail the process is slow so the admins are willing to cut back on quality to save time.you'd think they'd figure this strategy is a poor one since all quenched secret maps are crap ...

“In the beginning God said, the four-dimensional divergence of an antisymmetric, second rank tensor equals zero, and there was light, and it was good. And on the seventh day he rested.”- Michio Kaku