Author
Topic: Pizza Secrets by Beverly Collins (Read 32133 times)

scott123

...for a whole two hours. I watched the orientation and then walked out. As I sat there watching the video, all I could say to myself was "THIS is how corporations defile art. This is how big business chews up and spits out culture."

My job was actually to refine delivery maps (by hand!) and general preopening operations, but I made a lot of pizzas because I could. This was early '80s with commissary everything, and conveyor ovens, but we made some good pizzas, for ourselves if not for the customers.

I make Pizza for fun, not for competition and not commercially. I don’t need a 4 minute pizza cooked on the most thermodynamic surface know to man. When entertaining, I like my guests to have fun and join in on the Pizza making experience with a nice glass of wine in their hands. I have never had a guest ask me if I could make a 4 minute pizza like Scott123 on the Pizza making forum.

I grew up in NY City and for 65 years I love all the NY Style pizza’s you can purchase at places like Ray’s ( and all the other Ray’s), Grimaldi’s, Lombardi’s, Di Fara’s. If you need to lecture someone on what a NY Style pizza is – please take it somewhere else. When I need to consult with the Pizza Police, the above locations aren’t bad for starters. They all make great Pizza but there are differences in every one of them. In fact if you asked each one of them they will give you a reason why their Pizza is different than the competition and why their pies are rated the “Best in the World”

My thanks to everyone for their lively "On Topic" comments and book recomendations

RE: FibraMent – it can handle 1400+ degrees with an "EVEN" heat and I can crank my oven up to 700 degrees. I also like to bake breads, pies, you name it, and I find that my Fibrament cooking surface does a great job of “evenly” cooking anything that goes in my oven.

I know you are not a fan of FibraMent but for informational purposes to those who may be interested in a cost effective way to put out a very good baking product, I have attached an article from: Breadtopia

The FibraMent line of baking stones were developed by Illinios entrepreneur Mark O’Toole to meet the needs of professional bakers. Prior to FibraMent, bakers options were limited to ceramic and clay products that baked unevenly and cracked easily. FibraMent has become an industry standard for the baking industry and now is also available to home bakers seeking to duplicate the joys of hearth baking in their own kitchens.• FibraMent bakes great pizza, breads and bagels every time.• FibraMent NEVER needs cleaning. Simply brush excess crumbs off the baking stone.• Comes with a ten-year warranty.• FibraMent customer support is only a mouse click or phone call away.• FibraMent is safety tested and certified by NSF International, the widely recognized and respected independent certification organization for public health and safety.• Easy to follow baking instructions are provided.• FibraMent stones are designed for gas, electric and convection ovens, and also outdoor barbeque grills.• Stones available to fit most oven and outdoor grill sizes• FibraMent never needs to be removed from your oven.• FibraMent is a minimal long term investment which returns optimal results.

FibraMent Q & A:

1. What is the composition of FibraMent?FibraMent is made from a proprietary blend of heat resistant and conductive raw materials approved by NSF International for use in baking ovens.

2. What size FibraMent Baking Stone should I buy?When measuring your home oven, allow approximately a one inch opening on each side of the stone for proper air movement.

3. Can I lay a sheet of aluminum foil over the FibraMent Baking Stone to keep it from staining?Yes. The aluminum foil will not alter FibraMent’s baking properties. However, all baking stones are porous and will darken over time. Additional benefits of using aluminum foil are: thermal shock will be minimized and excess moisture will be prevented from contacting the stone.

4. Can FibraMent be used in wood burning ovens and outdoor patio grills?Although FibraMent has a 1500°F continuous use operating temperature limit, it cannot be exposed directly to flame. The flame diverter that comes with our barbecue grill stones must be used.

5. Some bakery publications have recommend baking on quarry tile. How does FibraMent compare to quarry tile?Quarry tile does not have the heat transfer properties necessary for quality baking. It is not engineered for baking oven temperature applications. Quarry tile becomes brittle after it has been heated and does not provide an even bake.

6. Can FibraMent be placed directly on a heating element in electric ovens?No. Nothing should be placed on the element. Setting baking stones or pans on the element restricts the heat flow. This gradually decreases the efficiency of the element until it fails.

7. Do you provide FibraMent similar to the HearthKit’s that are available?Yes, and you do not have to spend that much money. FibraMent is not only used as a baking stone. Our commercial accounts use FibraMent to line their oven ceiling and walls. For home ovens, place one baking stone on the wire rack at the very bottom of your oven. This will be your baking surface. Use a second FibraMent stone as the ceiling by placing on the wire rack above. Adjust the height of the wire rack so it’s immediately over the foods you are baking. Since we have greatly reduced the ceiling height of the oven, and are redirecting the heat back down on the items we are baking, wall inserts are not necessary. Our tests show using this method improves the bake quality.

8. Do thicker stones improve baking performance?Thermal conductivity or heat transfer is independent of thickness. Baking stones provide direct bottom heat to your food items. Thickness of the stone does not change the heat transfer rate.For baking stones to work properly the heat must be conducted evenly. Some baking stones conduct heat too quickly while other stones conduct heat too slowly. FibraMent’s heat transfer rate is 4.63 Btu.in/hr.sqft.°F tested to ASTM Standard C177-95. This is the ideal heat transfer rate. Thicker stones (1″, 1 1/2″ and 2″) are primarily used in commercial ovens where additional strength and recovery times are required.

9. Why don’t you supply a wire serving rack with your pizza stone?Baking stones should be left in the oven. Food bakes at temperatures over 200°F. FibraMent will stay above 200°F for at least thirty minutes after it’s taken out of a 400°F to 500°F oven. You do not want your food to continue to cook after it is taken out of the oven. Also, you will probably burn your fingers trying to take a slice of pizza off the hot stone.Serving the pizza will also become a problem. You will not harm FibraMent by cutting your pizza directly on the stone but you will dull your cutting instrument very quickly.

10. Can I leave my baking stone in the oven during the cleaning cycle?Baking stones are porous and absorb anything that comes in contact with it. It’s best to take the stone out of the oven when it goes through the cleaning cycle. You can leave the stone in the oven if you prevent any foreign residue from dripping on the stone.

11. When I baked my last pizza some sauce and cheese spilled onto the stone. How should I clean it?Take a dry rag and wipe off as much of the residue as you can. Use a rubber spatula to remove any stubborn spills. Be careful not to damage the surface of the stone.You can also bake-off the heavy spills. Instead of turning the oven off when you are through baking, turn it up to the highest temperature setting for 60 to 120 minutes. This will charcoalize the residue spilled onto the stone.Remember baking stones naturally darken and discolor over time with use (stone pictured here is 5 years old). The grease and toppings that drop on the stone actually improve the baking properties. This seals the surface of the stone and minimizes the chance of dough sticking to the surface.

12. Why is it necessary to predry/temper the stone?Since baking stones are porous they absorb moisture. Moisture turns to steam at 212°F. If the moisture is forced out of the stone too quickly it can develop cracks. This is why a slow, gradual temperature increase is so important.Even if we predried the stone at the factory it would pick up moisture during shipment to you. To ensure there was a nominal amount of moisture in the stone the predrying process would have to be repeated.

13. When I opened the carton I noticed some chips on the edges. Should I be concerned?Due to the inherent nature of the raw materials used in FibraMent, the edges may have some small chips. These areas do not affect the baking properties of FibraMent.

14. Some baking stone suppliers state their material absorbs moisture during the baking process. Is this the case with FibraMent?Baking stones provide even, direct heat from the bottom of the stone. Consistent thermal conductivity ensures that the toppings and dough finish baking at the same time. Baking stones do NOT draw moisture out of the dough. Rather, good quality baking stones bake through the dough at a even pace. It’s hard to imagine a stone heated up to 600°F can absorb moisture. Moisture evaporates very quickly at those temperatures.

I have never associated Tom Lehmann in my thinking with the big chains. Actually, Tom Lehmann is a friend of the small mom and pop independent pizza operator. He may consult for the chains although I don't ever recall his discussing that anyplace where he writes. So, I tend to doubt that he does consulting work for them. In reality, they don't even need him. They have large staffs of research people and food scientists. Tom is sometimes asked for advice by people who want to copy or mimic a big chain dough, but he usually doesn't come close to what I would consider a good clone, just based on what I know of the chains' products. Where the independents and chains have the most commonality is in the use of conveyor ovens. Most of the oven switches by independents is from deck ovens to conveyor ovens, not the other way around, and the trend toward conveyor ovens is accelerating. All of the big four chains use them, but even smaller chains that once used deck ovens have largely switched over to conveyor ovens, such as Buddy's, Jet's, Home Run Inn, Round Table and even some Chicago area deep-dish operators.

I will concede that Tom will sometimes promote the use of the PizzaTools hearth and cloud type disks for making the NY style in a conveyor oven, for which such disks were designed, but that is usually in response to requests from operators for advice in doing so. And Tom will usually mention that there are some models of conveyor ovens that are best suited for use with the hearth/cloud type disks, mainly the so-called fast bake ovens.

I've been using a Fibrament stone in my kitchen oven for several years with very good results baking bread. But this morning I tried something for the first time. Instead of the Fibrament stone, I baked Tartine loaves on a layer of 1.5" refractory tiles. These are designed for good heat conduction and the difference in oven spring was dramatic. My Tartine loaves are usually flat on the bottom, but these were completely rounded at the edges, very little of the bottom in contact with the tiles. Hard to know exactly because Tartine loaves are too wet to scale, but I'm guessing a 25% increase in volume compared to baking on the Fibrament.

Lots more testing to do, but I'm leaning towards the position that there are better (and less expensive) solutions than Fibrament.

John, you make some of the best looking Neapolitan pizzas this forum has to offer. I would probably be the one who'd be intimidated

Now, if you started going around telling people that you're expert on NY Style pizza and have a recipe that guarantees the 'Best Pizza Anywhere' using a fibrament stone and a screen, then not only would I recommend not having me over for pizza, but I'd highly recommend avoiding me completely- because you and I would have a big problem.

Scott, I'd love to have the opportunity to cook a pie for you someday. I'm not going to claim to be an expert in anything, nonetheless I will make you a pretty darn good pie (probably not the "best pizza anywhere” though I will claim that if it will work you up enough to come to Texas ), and I will make with KAAP and cook it on a Fibrament stone.

CL

Logged

"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza." Craig's Neapolitan Garage

I bought a Fibrament stone last year hoping for a better crust on my New York Pies. I dropped 80 or more bucks with shipping, and experienced rude customer service. I was optimistic when I got the stone, but was very dissapointed with the results. A flat, pale crust at 550. Frustrated, I resorted to oven tricks, baking at 650 on my cheap Pizza Gourmet 20 year old firebrick stone. The oven spring was magical, and the family gathered around the oven, mesmerized by the puff and heat. The pie was great, with open, airy crumb and near char on the crust. The smoke alarms and worried looks on my wife's face steered me away from oven tricks. Half inch steel at 530 gives me the 4 minutes pie my family loves. No tricks, no alarms. 40 bucks for the steel. Pizza heaven. This forum is a treasure trove. I have seen no reference in print that approaches the level of expertise and support this forum offers. Scott 123 brought me where I wanted to go. I am a believer!

I'm pretty sure that if I played around with a fibrament stone, I could make some pretty good pizza with it. But some materials will only get you so far and some materials are better than others. The folks in this forum spend massive amounts of time, energy, and effort to find out the differences between ingredients, materials, techniques, ovens, what have you. When it comes to stones and baking matierials, Scott123 IS the forum expert. Not some guy that has an axe to grind with Fibrament specifically.

Take the advice if you are ready for it. If you are happy with what you are making, then that's all that matters. But if you care to know the differences and and improve your game then take the FREE advice that is given. Do your own experiments and I'm pretty sure you will come to the same conclusion, that Scott knows his stuff.

Scott can be passionate/opinionated at times but who here isn't? I appreciate that about him...immensely. We don't have to agree on everything, but there is one thing I know. I have learned a ton from Scott and continue to do so.

As a matter of fact, I don't happen to agree with a lot of the forum experts on a lot of things, but I can always learn something from them to make my pizza better.

I am curious. Without naming names or anything like that, can you give a few examples?

Peter

Just some general ideas I've read in old posts. I haven't heard too many lately though.

-NP (styled) pizzas can't be made in the home oven.-00 ONLY works at high temps and a sub 2 minute bake.-caputo 00 flour is the best flour for making pizza. -VPN method is the only way for making true NP pies-spiral mixers and wfos are required to make great pizza. (I don't think I've heard anyone come out and say this but I get the feeling this is the general sentiment). -HG flour makes chewy products

It's not that I completely disagree and I can definitely see where and how some ideas get propagated. I just don't completely agree either. My point was really more or less, that we can all learn from eachother even if we don't agree on everything.

Just some general ideas I've read in old posts. I haven't heard too many lately though.

-NP (styled) pizzas can't be made in the home oven.-00 ONLY works at high temps and a sub 2 minute bake.-caputo 00 flour is the best flour for making pizza. -VPN method is the only way for making true NP pies-spiral mixers and wfos are required to make great pizza. (I don't think I've heard anyone come out and say this but I get the feeling this is the general sentiment). -HG flour makes chewy products

I'd add these to this list of things I've read on this forum more than once that I personally disagree with:- KAAP and KABF are garbage- Cold fermentation makes a better pizza- The lust for HG flour

CL

Logged

"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza." Craig's Neapolitan Garage

scott123

I'd add these to this list of things I've read on this forum more than once that I personally disagree with:- KAAP and KABF are garbage

The 'experts' say this? Really? I thought is was just me

Seriously, though, while I have no specific axe to grind with Fibrament, I've got a chip on my shoulder the size of Mount Rushmore when it comes to KA. About a decade ago, KA completely robbed me of 2 years of my pizzamaking life (by selling gummy inferior bread flour) and I will never forgive them for it. I've seen the pizzas people make with KA now and it's obvious that it's a different, quality product, but... out of every KA pizza I've ever seen (and I've seen hundreds), there is a distinct trend towards less oven spring, especially with amateur bakers. More importantly, I've never seen a KA pizza that had a particular trait that couldn't be recreated with traditional pizzeria flour. Peter talks a lot about KA's 'tight specifications' and 'careful wheat selection,' but I sincerely believe that KA is no superior to any of the better pro flours and thus does absolutely nothing to deserve the higher price. So maybe 'garbage' might be too strong of a word. A better description might be 'Larger learning curve flour sold by price gouging bastards.' How's that?

Craig, it may require some slight tweaks in hydration, but if Gold Medal AP flour (or Heckers, if you can get it) can't perform as well as KAAP, I'll eat my hat

I have always viewed the "tight specs" commentary as serving two purposes. The first has to do with the fact that King Arthur does not mill its own flours. So, really the only control it has over its millers is to specify the specs that are to be followed to insure as much as possible a consistent product. The second purpose is marketing and allows King Arthur to boast about its tight specs (as well as being unbleached and unbromated). I once spoke with a technical person at Bay State Milling who at the time was one of the millers for King Arthur. He mentioned the tight specs that they had to follow but he then went on to say what a great marketer King Arthur was. It was almost like he was in awe of King Arthur's marketing prowess.

I like the King Arthur flours personally and buy them despite the higher price. Where I live, the KAAP and KABF are sold at the same price, so I usually get the KABF for most of my doughs. I am not a fan of the high prices charged for the KASL and many of their other specialty flours that, for the quantities I would want to use, must be purchased directly from KA, and with stiff shipping charges tacked on to boot.

...for a whole two hours. I watched the orientation and then walked out. As I sat there watching the video, all I could say to myself was "THIS is how corporations defile art. This is how big business chews up and spits out culture."

It's hard not to defile art when your goal is to make as much money and have as many "restaurants" as possible. Anytime food is turned into a commodity, quality goes to crap.

scott123

Peter, I'm in 'awe' of King Arthur's marketing prowess. I'm actually a little bit more in awe because of my belief that they're selling regular flour at upscale flour prices while still completely dominating the home baker market. This isn't just a naked emperor, but an emperor, naked, running down the street and screaming at the top of his lungs.

I think Reinhart played a big part in this, but as far as 99.9% of home bread bakers go, the concept of buying anything other than KABF is ridiculous.

Scott, I picked out Heckers and Gold Medal not because they're intrinsically better or worse than other AP flours, just because they're the first thing that popped into my head. I see AP in almost the same way that I see HG. It's all pretty much the same (within each respective protein point). The one exception would be Walmart AP, and I say this not from direct experience, but because almost every single walmart product I've ever purchased has been defective in some manner. I'm actually using up some AT right now by blending it with WM, and it's been treating me very well, but I still reserve the right to trust Walmart about as far as I can throw them.

To be fair, the King Arthur KAAP and KABF have higher protein contents than most competitive brands, at least the ones that I can find on the supermarket shelves of the stores where I shop. Whether the higher protein content of those flours justifies their higher price is hard to say. That is a question that each user has to answer.