Tuesday Music Session Tomorrow 20:30 · The White Hart, 184 St Philip's Road, Sheffield S3 7JS Shared to Acoustic Power LikeShow More ReactionsCommentShare Comments Richard Miles Richard Miles I would not be interested in going to a venue where people read the words. LikeShow More Reactions · Reply · 9 hrs Edit Neil Cardwell Neil Cardwell Oddly enough the gentleman who you refer to in your insidious, bigoted comment has been a professional entertainer for many years. He has more material committed to memory than you could probably dream of knowing. However, were this not to be the case ...See more LikeShow More Reactions · Reply · 7 hrs Remove Richard Miles Richard Miles my comment is only my opinion, there is no point in being insulting. I have made a living as a professional folk singer since 1974 so your unpleasant comment is wide of the mark, I have no wish to go to sessions where people read notes, I am sure that ...See more Introduction Hi, I am Dick Miles. I have been singing and playing music since I was 13. My special love and interest is traditional music and the conc... DICKMILES.COM LikeShow More Reactions · Reply · Remove Preview · 7 hrs Edit Neil Cardwell Neil Cardwell Richard Miles at least you have adopted an appropriate first name. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but it isn't always necessary to share it. Particularly when the opinion is negative and prejudiced. I wouldn't be interested in your website and I doubt that anyone else would be after you have made public your introspective, pompous attitude LikeShow More Reactions · Reply · 6 hrs Remove Richard Miles Richard Miles My opinion is positive I believe that performing with words is not necessary and insulting to an audience, it looks to me as if musicans /singers have not bothered to learn the words before they perform, if someone cannot be bothered that is an insult to the audience, therefore your club would not appeal to me, I am not prejudging anything ,I have seen two photgraphs of different performers at your club using words while performing, on that basis i would not wish to attend your club, there is nothing introspective about it or pompous. The only person who is being rude or negative or pompous is you, you cannot accept that people might not want to come to a club where performers appear to be not bothered about learning words.

So on the mudcat cafe facebook page, I posted that I would not be interested in attending A Club run by Neil Cardwell in Sheffield [Red Deer] because I do not like to attend clubs where people are reading from words. I was then subjected to insults, a very strange way to promote a Folk club.HERE IS THE UNEXPURGATED VERSION OF INSULTS.Tuesday Music Session Tomorrow 20:30 · The White Hart, 184 St Philip's Road, Sheffield S3 7JS Shared to Acoustic Power LikeShow More ReactionsCommentShare Comments Richard Miles Richard Miles I would not be interested in going to a venue where people read the words. LikeShow More Reactions · Reply · 9 hrs Edit Neil Cardwell Neil Cardwell Oddly enough the gentleman who you refer to in your insidious, bigoted comment has been a professional entertainer for many years. He has more material committed to memory than you could probably dream of knowing. However, were this not to be the case he would still be made welcome. The only people who are not welcome at our sessions are self centred, egotistical idiots who have an over inflated opinion of their own abilities. So perhaps it is fortunate that you would appear to live so far away. LikeShow More Reactions · Reply · 7 hrs Remove Richard Miles Richard Miles my comment is only my opinion, there is no point in being insulting. I have made a living as a professional folk singer since 1974 so your unpleasant comment is wide of the mark, I have no wish to go to sessions where people read notes, I am sure that I am not alone in that view, because somebody does not wish to attend your session it does not follow that they are egotistical self centered idiots.As you do not appear to know me how can you possibly state that the person in the photograph has more songs committed to memory than me, here is my website www.dickmiles.com Introduction Hi, I am Dick Miles. I have been singing and playing music since I was 13. My special love and interest is traditional music and the conc... DICKMILES.COM LikeShow More Reactions · Reply · Remove Preview · 7 hrs Edit Neil Cardwell Neil Cardwell Richard Miles at least you have adopted an appropriate first name. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but it isn't always necessary to share it. Particularly when the opinion is negative and prejudiced. I wouldn't be interested in your website and I doubt that anyone else would be after you have made public your introspective, pompous attitude LikeShow More Reactions · Reply · 7 hrs Remove Richard Miles Richard Miles My opinion is positive I believe that performing with words is not necessary and insulting to an audience, it looks to me as if musicans /singers have not bothered to learn the words before they perform, if someone cannot be bothered that is an insult to the audience, therefore your club would not appeal to me, I am not prejudging anything ,I have seen two photgraphs of different performers at your club using words while performing, on that basis i would not wish to attend your club, there is nothing introspective about it or pompous. The only person who is being rude or negative or pompous is you, you cannot accept that people might not want to come to a club where performers appear to be not bothered about learning words.

"If you check out the Mudcat Facebook site Anglogeezer all will be explained, basically its Dick being Dick" Basically I am letting an organiser know that I do not agree with an aspect of their club policy, That particular organiser then indulges in insults and invective, which seems to be a strange way of promoting his club, to put up photographs of several people reading songs from books is honest but only likely to appeal to certain people, what is often caled dumbing down. Unlike many other professional performers I do not believe in keeping quiet about issues that i think important [for the sake of maintaining a reputation of being mr nice guy]such as trying to improve standards in folk clubs and particularly singers clubs. It would be much easier to never speak out about the decline in standards in some singers clubs.

At my regular club (Sharp's) we occasionally have someone reading the words. In one case it was a brand new song written by that singer, and that somehow seemed somewhat more acceptable, though of course one could argue that even in that case he should have waited until he had learnt it. In other instances I disapprove strongly -- but then I disapprove of a few other performances for one reason or another, but too few to spoil the evening as a whole.

If reading the words is commonplace at a certain club, then like Dick I would not wish to go there.

Dick, with respect, the topic of words/no words has been aired time and time again on this forum - and with the usual spectrum of viewpoints.

The problem here is that you're bringing a personal tiff on Facebook to this forum. You're perfectly entitled to post whatever you want on Facebook, but why bring the resulting sets of invectives here? Most of us won't care.

I quite often find myself at odds with Dick, but on this occasion (though I don't think he has articulated his point very well here), I agree with him totally If you haven't had time or can't be bothered to learn a song before you perform it publicly - you shouldn't Singing it to a group of mates as a work in progress is different, but to an audience....... ? Not as far as I'm concerned - is shows disrespect for the song, its maker and the audience, and it doesn't do the reputation of the music any good Folk clubs may be run by amateurs but there is no place for an amateurish approach Jim Carroll

Hello Dick. I hope your Fastenet weekend went well. Always too much to do in June but I hope to get there one day.

I agree that it's great to give feedback. But it can come over as hurtful rather than helpful. I think it would be a shame if Neil stopped doing this and all the folky things he organises.

If it had been me I would have preferred a private message with a friendly approach and some constructive criticism. Maybe suggest the photo could be improved by some judicious cropping, or better still a photo of a singer in passionate unhindered flow, and a couple of reasons why you avoid clubs or singarounds where people use words and notes.

As stated above, this has been discussed numerous times. To pick up one point:In one case it was a brand new song written by that singer, and that somehow seemed somewhat more acceptable, though of course one could argue that even in that case he should have waited until he had learnt it. Yes, but . . . if the song is topical, delaying performing it until it has been learnt would miss the point. Similarly, taking the time to learn it, while it has a very short "shelf-life" seems wasteful.

Also (one of the usual replies): Are choirs & orchestras being unprofessional by requiring to have copies of the music?

Dave the Gnome, I did not indulge in insults or invective I said QUOTE "I would not be interested in going to a venue where people read the words." Dave the Gnome Polshaw, what on earth are you talking about.

As a person who has been interested in Folk Music for a great number of years both listening and also performing on a semi professional basis i find it strange that some people who perform do not learn the words. I cannot see how you can give a true picture of your performing ability when doing this. I know that when i started singing i always learnt the song and i did not know any other way. I realise that when starting out it is a very nervous experience, and having the words with you is a great safety net When i used to practice a song i used to not only do it at home but when walking to work and also going to the shops. I also think that people who go to folk clubs and sing with words might just need a bit of encouragement from other club members and the organiser to release the talent that is there but needs to come out more fully.

Alan Conn. Classical music is very different,firstly the performers have rehearsed many times with the words or music they also play/sing following detailed instructions and sometimes very long items. I agree with JimCarroll lNot as far as I'm concerned - is shows disrespect for the song, its maker and the audience, and it doesn't do the reputation of the music any good Folk clubs may be run by amateurs but there is no place for an amateurish approach Jim Carroll

IMHO Professionals, semi professionals etc. I would expect to know their material. Most of the clubs around me however, the floorspots are using words, possibly tablets for lyrics. I do not find this disrepectful to the authors, the fact someone engages with a certain song suggests they have clear respect for the art. This is a HOBBY for many people who have busy lives, jobs, grandchildren, allotments etc. and i would rather see them join in an evening by doing this than see many events close if lyric learning became a requirement. Better from a crib sheet than an excruiating 3-4mins of trying to remember the lyrics/order of verses - which fret the capo goes on - use notes please! Myself, I like to learn the words so i can hopefully give a strong performance, but then I'm in a bit deeper than many floorspots ( no allotment or grandchildren - yet ).

When did you ever see "knows all their material by heart" as a selling point on a concert flyer?

To most of the potential audience it's irrelevant.

I think the only time I've ever seen the issue come up in a concert review was in a Time magazine review of Jacob Lateiner doing the premiere of Elliott Carter's Piano Concerto - he used a score even after rehearsing it to the exclusion of any other music for six months. The reviewer's comment was along the lines of "as well he might", even though this is unusual for a concerto soloist - he didn't fault Lateiner at all.

Rule No 1 of Debate in public. If the original posting is made by a fool don't argue, some people might not know the difference.

Rule No 2 The argument can never be fool proof because fools are ingenious.

Rule No 3 Fools usually have a hidden agenda. (Like I'm not respected enough so I'll take my revenge on you all because I should be considered indispensable to the Folk scene)

Rule No 4 If you point out to a fool that he is foolish, prepare for him to squeal like a pig, try and say you are the fool not him post all his gigs on mudcat to prove how successful he thinks he is.

Rule No 5. Fools tend to stick together so prepare for further criticism. Prepare for foolish logic like you know a lot about fools therefore you must be one, or people who read the words in Folk Clubs are lesser mortals than me because I am ever so special and misunderstood. I've been around a long time and I deserve your adoration, where are you all?

Rule No 6 Fools end up hurting themselves. ( OK Here comes the self righteous outburst from you know who...read it and refer to the rules above might be fun) Then again it might go very quiet...

"Just another thread attempting to turn folk music into dogma." If having enough respect for your material to learn to play or sing it, I'm glad I left it when I did Folk song lost its most devoted supporters when the performances became "close enough for folk song" Now it seems to be reduced to amateurism for audiences who don't give a toss I cannot think of another art form that doesn't apply standards - but maybe working people's music doesn't rate as an art form - my mistake Jim Carrll

Well the wonderful Polly Bolton ALWAYS had her words on a music stand for good reason, as do I'm sure, many singers - aha, so does international artist Richard Shindell, so I really cannot understand this schholboy arrogance!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Strange how the rules seem to be different for poetry when compared against song. Les Barker has always had a book in his hand when I have seen him perform (not that he ever looked at it). Poetry please on the Beeb always has people reading the words rather than reciting them. I am convinced that some people can get just as much emotion into a song using words that they are reading as compared from words spoken from memory, but it is not every song and not every person.

If Dick did not want the gig in Sheffield, all he had to do was tell the organiser so and, privately, why not.

Why he has to turn it into yet another "I AM DICK MILES AND I KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT FOLK AND IF YOU DO THINGS I DO NOT APPROVE OF I WILL MAKE MYSELF LOOK AN ARSE ALL OVER MUDCAT" I do not know....nor do I really care. If I were a Folk Club organiser (and thank the Lord I'm not, sir) Dick Miles would be at the top of the list of people never to invite.

I quite like winding the idiot up. He's so full of himself he never fails to take the bait. I'd love to put a notice outside one of his gigs DICK MILES- BACK BY POPULAR PRICE and watch him squeal. (Then go home in case I heard him trying to sing)

I don't see any value in this thread. I should have deleted it as soon as Dick started it. If you'd like to continue the discussion of memorizing lyrics, pick one of the threads in the crosslinks listed above - and don't mention Dick Miles. Thread closed. -Joe Offer-