You want to put fear in the heart of anyone who has any desire to see the Catholic Church as something other than a blood curdling monstrosity.

You present a disembodied arm and call it the Body.

It is the worst kind of false witness. I call it as I see it: It is evil.

Oh, puh-leeeeze.

Get over yourselves. I say this with love.

I recognize that Orthodox moral teaching is relative, but for us ALL false witness is evil.

LOL. Do you include the False Decretals under that rubric?

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

The Catholic Church offers the Eucharistic sacrifice to the Father, through the Son, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

That she does.

As for the Vatican, it offers its masses for "the Holy Father," through his authority, by the power of "the Petrine office." Or so it claims.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

You want to put fear in the heart of anyone who has any desire to see the Catholic Church as something other than a blood curdling monstrosity.

You present a disembodied arm and call it the Body.

It is the worst kind of false witness. I call it as I see it: It is evil.

Oh, puh-leeeeze.

Get over yourselves. I say this with love.

I recognize that Orthodox moral teaching is relative, but for us ALL false witness is evil.

LOL. Do you include the False Decretals under that rubric?

It is enough to deal with what is here before us.

You are tagged this morning.

You bear false witness.

So you claim, but can't offer proof. Now that's false witness.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

St. John the Merciful: We Ought Never Commune From Heretics Another thing the blessed man taught and insisted upon with all was never on any occasion whatsoever to associate with heretics and, above all, never to take Holy Communion with them, 'even if', the blessed man said, 'you remain without communicating all your life, if through stress of circumstances you cannot find a community of the Catholic Church. For if, having legally married a wife in this world of the flesh, we are forbidden by God and by the laws to desert her and be united to another woman, even though we have to spend a long time separated from her in a distant country, and shall incur punishment if we violate our vows, how then shall we, who have been Joined to God through the Orthodox faith and the Catholic Church - as the apostle says: "I espoused you to one husband that I might present you as a pure virgin to Christ" [2 Cor 11:2] - how shall we escape from sharing in that punishment which in the world to come awaits heretics, if we defile the Orthodox and holy faith by adulterous communion with heretics?'

'For communion', he said, 'has been so called because he who has communion has things in common and agrees with those with whom he has communion. Therefore I implore you earnestly, children, never to go near the oratories of the heretics in order to communicate there.'

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

The Catholic Church offers the Eucharistic sacrifice to the Father, through the Son, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

That she does.

Yes. The liturgies in my Church are offered to the Father, through the Son, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

You apparently have a different system through the Synod, I think you said.

no, but we in the Catholic Churhc do have a different system than that of the Vatican as described by your supreme pontiff, quoted at length above.

« Last Edit: November 17, 2010, 12:49:10 PM by ialmisry »

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

That's funny, because the opposite assertion is what we see around here all the time.

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

The Catholic Church offers the Eucharistic sacrifice to the Father, through the Son, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

That she does.

Yes. The liturgies in my Church are offered to the Father, through the Son, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

You apparently have a different system through the Synod, I think you said.

no, but we in the Catholic Churhc do have a different system than that of the Vatican as described by your supreme pontiff, quoted at length above.

You have become Catholic? That is wonderful. When did you come into communion with His Holiness, Pope Benedict XVI?

« Last Edit: November 17, 2010, 01:14:00 PM by Papist »

Logged

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

The Catholic Church offers the Eucharistic sacrifice to the Father, through the Son, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

That she does.

Yes. The liturgies in my Church are offered to the Father, through the Son, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

You apparently have a different system through the Synod, I think you said.

no, but we in the Catholic Churhc do have a different system than that of the Vatican as described by your supreme pontiff, quoted at length above.

You have become Catholic? That is wonderful. Whend did you come into communion with His Holiness, Pope Benedict XVI?

Your supreme pontiff Benedict XIV exposion on the import of the commemoration we fully agree with. (It's a shame you do not). As such, no DL which comemorates "His Holiness, Pope Benedict XVI" is a eucharist of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

It is interesting that you do not commemorate a supreme pontiff when the office is vacant, and to commemorate someone when the office is vacant would seem to be as bad as commemorating the wrong guy. When the office of primate of an autocephalous Orthodox Church is vacant, the Holy Synod of that Church is commemorated. That we do not commemorate the Holy Synod of the Patriarchate of the West is telling.

Of course, Rome is in the diptychs, as Bishop Siluan of Rome commemorates the Patriarch of Bucharest and All Romania.

So no, unfortunately "His Holiness, Pope Benedict XVI" providing the basis for the Ultramontanist communion of its heretical ecclesiatical community which is communicated not by consecration of bishops by the Holy Spirit but by appointment of them by the Vatican (does heretical communion have an ontological reality?) and acceptance of office of supreme pontiff, he is not in Catholic communion.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

The Catholic Church offers the Eucharistic sacrifice to the Father, through the Son, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

That she does.

Yes. The liturgies in my Church are offered to the Father, through the Son, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

You apparently have a different system through the Synod, I think you said.

no, but we in the Catholic Churhc do have a different system than that of the Vatican as described by your supreme pontiff, quoted at length above.

You have become Catholic? That is wonderful. Whend did you come into communion with His Holiness, Pope Benedict XVI?

Your supreme pontiff Benedict XIV exposion on the import of the commemoration we fully agree with. (It's a shame you do not). As such, no DL which comemorates "His Holiness, Pope Benedict XVI" is a eucharist of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

It is interesting that you do not commemorate a supreme pontiff when the office is vacant, and to commemorate someone when the office is vacant would seem to be as bad as commemorating the wrong guy. When the office of primate of an autocephalous Orthodox Church is vacant, the Holy Synod of that Church is commemorated. That we do not commemorate the Holy Synod of the Patriarchate of the West is telling.

Of course, Rome is in the diptychs, as Bishop Siluan of Rome commemorates the Patriarch of Bucharest and All Romania.

So no, unfortunately "His Holiness, Pope Benedict XVI" providing the basis for the Ultramontanist communion of its heretical ecclesiatical community which is communicated not by consecration of bishops by the Holy Spirit but by appointment of them by the Vatican (does heretical communion have an ontological reality?) and acceptance of office of supreme pontiff, he is not in Catholic communion.

How can the Catholic Pope not be Catholic? Silly you. You are always so confused about reality.

« Last Edit: November 17, 2010, 01:20:24 PM by Papist »

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

That's funny, because the opposite assertion is what we see around here all the time.

Although I think it's more "ironic" than "funny." Perhaps it's just because I'm a relative whippersnapper in the culture wars around these parts, but I haven't observed (YMMV, of course) what you describe.To charge someone with bearing false witness and being evil (and by extension an entire Church) based on an internet discussion does seem to be a little over the top.

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"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

That's funny, because the opposite assertion is what we see around here all the time.

Although I think it's more "ironic" than "funny." Perhaps it's just because I'm a relative whippersnapper in the culture wars around these parts, but I haven't observed (YMMV, of course) what you describe.To charge someone with bearing false witness and being evil (and by extension an entire Church) based on an internet discussion does seem to be a little over the top.

I am sorry you feel that way. But it is an evil to distort another person's reality in order to insist that it is, in itself, a distortion. You walk away believing that you've accomplished something and that your hands are clean. But they are not and all that has been accomplished is an evil act.

If Orthodox faithful have to lie about the Catholic Church to make Orthodoxy true...well...where do you suppose that will lead?

That's funny, because the opposite assertion is what we see around here all the time.

Although I think it's more "ironic" than "funny." Perhaps it's just because I'm a relative whippersnapper in the culture wars around these parts, but I haven't observed (YMMV, of course) what you describe.To charge someone with bearing false witness and being evil (and by extension an entire Church) based on an internet discussion does seem to be a little over the top.

Elijah didn't say that Isa or the EO Church were evil. She said that Isa's actions (bearing false witness) were evil. Do you deny that bearing false witness is a sin?

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"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Like is the case on most of the threads on Orthodox-Catholic Discussion, I question what any of the back and forth here has to do with the original topic of the OP. ISTM that this happens with most questions posted here. Sorry if I am out of line in complaining.

The Catholic Church offers the Eucharistic sacrifice to the Father, through the Son, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

That she does.

Yes. The liturgies in my Church are offered to the Father, through the Son, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

You apparently have a different system through the Synod, I think you said.

no, but we in the Catholic Churhc do have a different system than that of the Vatican as described by your supreme pontiff, quoted at length above.

Not by much is it different. You don't sign off on your liturgical translations. Your priest and parish do not. Your bishop does not.

Actually, the bishop does. I remember some adjustments being made in the Diocese of the Midwest in the Holy Week and Paschal liturgical translations a decade or so ago.

Quote

The synod, without the Patriarch, does not.

The Metropolitan with the Holy Synod does. It doesn't involve the Patriarch or the Holy Synod of Antioch, as they do not speak English as their language, and the Archdiocese has autonomy/self rule on these issues. Btw, on Arabic texts, we adopt the ones approved back home.

The Ecumenical Patriarch is not involved at all.

Quote

You only ever show part of an image and say to your confreres "See the distortion?..."

You don't even show part of an image. You tell us to trust your word on what it looks like, we don't need to see it with our own eyes. We are supposed to walk by your faith, not our sight.

The links are provided. If they want to see more, they are quite free. That included your confreres, if they want to open their eyes.

Quote

Yes. We see the distortion and you create it using bits and pieces of the truth.

Just mustard seeds. But is funny you say bits and pieces, given the complaints on the length of my posts.

Quote

It is false witness

So you keep saying and won't start proving.

Quote

and false witness is an evil act

Then commence with providing the evidence and proof of your accusations. Otherwise

Quote

and only can have evil as its outcome.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Like is the case on most of the threads on Orthodox-Catholic Discussion, I question what any of the back and forth here has to do with the original topic of the OP. ISTM that this happens with most questions posted here. Sorry if I am out of line in complaining.

You are not out of line at all. I don't think Katherine of Dixie is out of line either for that matter.

It is the nature of this Forum and what is tolerated and what is not. There is indeed room for improvement.

As the most Ancient and Orthodox of Churches (the Acoe's third Patriarch Mar Abris was a relative of Jesus, it was custodian of the most ancient Icon of Christendom the one you constructed all your icons from , Peter came to it first in Seleukia according to King Abgar's letters to Narses, and built the first physical building of a church for it, and Saint Thaddeus evangelized it first than anybody else, the Assyrian Queen Helena of Adiabene ruled all Jews outside Jerusalem which were the first Christians, ie: apostle of the circumcised) the Assyrian Church of the East believes that it is against the command "Let the little Children come to me" not to give the Eucharist to other Christians baptized in the name of Trinity and thinks this argumentation is all flawed and minimalistic, if only you all would read a book on the state of the Church prior to the first council of Ephesus and all the groups in a phone book which appeared after that date you would see what I am talking about.

I am profoundly troubled by reading the things Orthodox are saying on Roman Catholics here - unleavened bread...then why don't you use Holy Malka which was given by Saint John to all the Churches as the proper form of leavening? Why did you allow tyrants to say this was superstition and not preserve this tradition? You accuse the Latins of doing this, apply the same standard. "Ultramontanism"...then why does your "ecumenical Patriarch" call himself first among equals and tried to take over or hand over to his subjects foreign churches as "canonical territories" (ie: the ROC managed to convince one small Assyrian Church to join it and bulldozed the oldest liturgy in the world and subsituted it for Saint John Chrysostom's liturgy, that is wrong). Your Bishops also changed the definition of what a Bishop is! According to your reasoning you cannot consecrate the Host or perform sacraments as well (not that I believe this)! The whole talk on "the Greek says this" in particular makes me troubled, the most ancient semitic Churches (Syriac Orthodox, Maronites, ACOE) hold as their canonical text the Aramaic which our Lord spoke. You think this text was lost, you are wrong and the refusal to give up on this text by the said Church's proves my point (it was by the way forbidden to teach Greek in first century palestine to pious Jews). Purgatory...then why did Mark of Ephesus according to Fr. Popovich supposedly teach that God placed you in Hell until prayers and liturgy being celebrated for the deceased fished you, payed you out (sounds like purgatory to me, and I haven't even gone into tollhouses and such which emphasize even more the pay aspect). The True belief of the ancient Church (making use of the ancient language and culture of our Lord) we have preserved can be read in the last few chapters of the Book of the Bee by Mar Shleimon of Basra. You call the RCC heterodox for having 21 councils it calls ecumenical but you have 7 and the Oriental Orthodox have only 3, and the ACOE only agreed to Nicea, Constantinople I (2). You say those who prevented their beliefs from being corrupted are "Nestorian" but you give the benefit of a doubt on so called heresy to those who's "Pope" gave you a Saint (Flavian). Ylou know what I'm talking about. Is this not wrong? Why do you blame others for the same mistakes you commit ? Pull the plank out of your own eyes O Pharisees ! Thank God your hierarchs can see all this and decide prudently.

What a fascinating and thought provoking post. I would love to read up more on your Church.

It would be nice if ialmisry could actually post a coherent thought instead of just posting a large wad of quotes every time we ask him to explain something.

The purpose of it is to accuse and obfuscate rather than explain and clarify. You have also noted by now that there are very clear language issues, so one would not care to make that even more apparent by trying to compose original note, etc.

As I said earlier, if it is necessary for Orthodox believers to distort the realities of Catholic life and ecclesiology then that cannot but speak badly for Orthodoxy. Is Orthodoxy really that weak? I don't think so but apparently there are those who are afraid.

The Catholic Church offers the Eucharistic sacrifice to the Father, through the Son, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

That she does.

Yes. The liturgies in my Church are offered to the Father, through the Son, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

You apparently have a different system through the Synod, I think you said.

no, but we in the Catholic Churhc do have a different system than that of the Vatican as described by your supreme pontiff, quoted at length above.

You have become Catholic? That is wonderful. Whend did you come into communion with His Holiness, Pope Benedict XVI?

Your supreme pontiff Benedict XIV exposion on the import of the commemoration we fully agree with. (It's a shame you do not). As such, no DL which comemorates "His Holiness, Pope Benedict XVI" is a eucharist of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

It is interesting that you do not commemorate a supreme pontiff when the office is vacant, and to commemorate someone when the office is vacant would seem to be as bad as commemorating the wrong guy. When the office of primate of an autocephalous Orthodox Church is vacant, the Holy Synod of that Church is commemorated. That we do not commemorate the Holy Synod of the Patriarchate of the West is telling.

Of course, Rome is in the diptychs, as Bishop Siluan of Rome commemorates the Patriarch of Bucharest and All Romania.

So no, unfortunately "His Holiness, Pope Benedict XVI" providing the basis for the Ultramontanist communion of its heretical ecclesiatical community which is communicated not by consecration of bishops by the Holy Spirit but by appointment of them by the Vatican (does heretical communion have an ontological reality?) and acceptance of office of supreme pontiff, he is not in Catholic communion.

How can the Catholic Pope not be Catholic? Silly you. You are always so confused about reality.

My question was when do we, as RCs, offer up the Holy Eucharist or celebrate the Sacrament of Confession, or any other Sacrament for that matter, in the name of the Pope? I don't recall the Pope's name being brought up when any of the Sacraments are celebrated save for a brief mention of him in the Mass.

Oh, I see. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

^ So then Isa, you don't have a meaningful answer to Wyatt's question? That's what I thought.

Still don't see how this means that the Euchrist is "offered in the name of the Pope."

But hey, why bother with the facts, right? You have Latins to bash. lol

So once moe: So then Isa, you don't have a meaningful answer to Wyatt's question? That's what I thought.

Commemorating the Pope does not mean that the Eucharist is being offered in his name. Another swing and a miss for you Isa.

So, I have to ask once more: So then Isa, you don't have a meaningful answer to Wyatt's question? That's what I thought.

^ So then Isa, you don't have a meaningful answer to Wyatt's question? That's what I thought.

Vatican issues final text of the Roman Missal, Third Edition, for the Dioceses of the United States of America

you might want to argue with his holiness:

Quote

EX QUO (On the Euchologion) Pope Benedict

Encyclical of Pope Benedict XIV promulgated on 1 March 1756. To the Archbishops, Bishops and Other Clerics, Secular and Regular, of the Greek Rite Who Enjoy Favor and Communion with the Apostolic See.

It is said in addition that no discussions on restoring unity were ever begun without the acceptance of the prior condition that the commemoration of the Roman pontiff should be included in the sacred liturgy, nor was a union which had been agreed on regarded as complete until the previous condition had actually been put into effect. The clear result of all this is that the Latin and Greek churches agree in recognizing and affirming that the commemoration implies a profession of due subjection to the Roman pontiff as head of the Church, and of a willingness to remain in the unity of the Church. On the other hand the omission of this commemoration signifies the intention of steadfastly espousing schism.

and, in contrast to the unconsecrated bishop elect confirmed by the Vatican's fiat, no consecrated bishop is to be commemorated if he does not submitt to the Vatican (called 'schismatic') or teach the Vatican's dogmas (called 'heretical'):

Quote

First Admonition-Commemoration of Bishop and Patriarch

18. Now follows the second part of this first admonition which, as was mentioned above, obliges the Greek priest during Mass, after praying for the Roman pontiff, to pray for his own bishop and his patriarch if they are Catholic. For if either is or both are schismatic or heretic, a commemoration should not be made.

^So then Papist, you don't have a meaningful question to your supreme pontiff's answer? That's what I thought.

So to answer your question "How can the Catholic Pope not be Catholic?" The Catholic Pope is Catholic

The original Pope, given that title before Rome appropriated it to itself.

And it is just that, only a title, just like Patriarch, Metropolitan and Archbishop in the Catholic Church. It carries dogmatic implications neither in the ecclesiology of the Catholic Church nor the Orthdoox episcopacy.

Yes, I'm aware the Vatican has twisted the definition of self-absorbition into defining Catholicism as submission to its supreme pontiff, but we stick with the definition that St. Ignatius and all the Fathers used:

Quote

See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.

Not the bishop nominated by some supreme pontiff (who nowhere appears), but the local bishop consecrated by the Orthodox episcopate to unite his flock into the unity of the Catholic Church. The unity of the Catholic Church depends neither on communion with Pope Benedict XVI of Rome nor acknowledging the Orthodox bishop of Rome, Siluan, as Pope.

So, as you supreme pontiff Benedict taught, the head of your ecclesiastical community, being in schism from the Catholic Church and teaching heretical dogmas contrary to the Orthodox Faith, should by no menas be commemorated during the divine services. If follows from that, that their should be no sharing of sacraments.

« Last Edit: November 17, 2010, 02:57:13 PM by ialmisry »

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Go try to pass a counterfeit $100 bill at the bank and tell us how "the senseless bickering and one upmanship" goes.

<<John 4:33>>"You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know."

Btw, the "dead men's bones" we are full of-the relics of the saints upon which we celebrate our sacraments, are quite clean.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

10. One Body. In his Commentaryon the 17th Chapter of St. John’s Gospel,St. Cyril of Alexandria argues that the unity of the Church, modeled on the unity of Father and Son and realized through the gift of the Spirit, is primarily formed in us through the Eucharist in which the disciples of Jesus share:

For by liturgically blessing (eulogōn) those who believe in him into a single body – namely, his own – through sacramental participation, [Christ] has made them completely one body with himself and with each other. Who, after all, could divide, or alienate from natural unity with one another, those who are bound through the one holy body into unity with Christ? For if ‘all of us partake of the one loaf’ (1 Cor 10.17), all of us are formed into one body. It is impossible to divide Christ. That is the reason that the church is called the Body of Christ, and we are individually his members, as Paul understands it. For since we are all united with Christ through his holy Body - which we take, one and undivided, into our own bodies - we owe our own limbs more to him than to ourselves… How, then are we all not clearly one [Cyril goes on to ask] in each other and in Christ? For Christ is himself the bond of unity, existing at the same time as God and as a human being…. And all of us who have received one and the same Spirit – I mean the Holy Spirit – are blended together, in a certain way, with each other and with God… For just as the power of his holy flesh forms those to whom it comes into a single body, in the same way, I believe, the one Spirit of God, who dwells in all of us undivided, brings us all to a spiritual unity (Comm. on John 11.11 [ed. Pusey 2.735-737]).

Conscience holds us back from celebrating our unity as complete in sacramental terms, until it is complete in faith, Church structure, and common action; but conscience also calls us to move beyond complacency in our divisions, in the power of the Spirit and in a longing for the fullness of Christ’s life-giving presence in our midst. The challenge and the invitation to Orthodox and Catholic Christians, who understand themselves to be members of Christ’s Body precisely by sharing in the Eucharistic gifts and participating in the transforming life of the Holy Spirit, is now to see Christ authentically present in each other, and to find in those structures of leadership that have shaped our communities through the centuries a force to move us beyond disunity, mistrust, and competition, and towards that oneness in his Body, that obedience to his Spirit, that will reveal us as his disciples before the world.

The Catholic Church offers the Eucharistic sacrifice to the Father, through the Son, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

That she does.

Yes. The liturgies in my Church are offered to the Father, through the Son, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

You apparently have a different system through the Synod, I think you said.

no, but we in the Catholic Churhc do have a different system than that of the Vatican as described by your supreme pontiff, quoted at length above.

You have become Catholic? That is wonderful. Whend did you come into communion with His Holiness, Pope Benedict XVI?

Your supreme pontiff Benedict XIV exposion on the import of the commemoration we fully agree with. (It's a shame you do not). As such, no DL which comemorates "His Holiness, Pope Benedict XVI" is a eucharist of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

It is interesting that you do not commemorate a supreme pontiff when the office is vacant, and to commemorate someone when the office is vacant would seem to be as bad as commemorating the wrong guy. When the office of primate of an autocephalous Orthodox Church is vacant, the Holy Synod of that Church is commemorated. That we do not commemorate the Holy Synod of the Patriarchate of the West is telling.

Of course, Rome is in the diptychs, as Bishop Siluan of Rome commemorates the Patriarch of Bucharest and All Romania.

So no, unfortunately "His Holiness, Pope Benedict XVI" providing the basis for the Ultramontanist communion of its heretical ecclesiatical community which is communicated not by consecration of bishops by the Holy Spirit but by appointment of them by the Vatican (does heretical communion have an ontological reality?) and acceptance of office of supreme pontiff, he is not in Catholic communion.

How can the Catholic Pope not be Catholic? Silly you. You are always so confused about reality.

My question was when do we, as RCs, offer up the Holy Eucharist or celebrate the Sacrament of Confession, or any other Sacrament for that matter, in the name of the Pope? I don't recall the Pope's name being brought up when any of the Sacraments are celebrated save for a brief mention of him in the Mass.

Oh, I see. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

^ So then Isa, you don't have a meaningful answer to Wyatt's question? That's what I thought.

Still don't see how this means that the Euchrist is "offered in the name of the Pope."

But hey, why bother with the facts, right? You have Latins to bash. lol

So once moe: So then Isa, you don't have a meaningful answer to Wyatt's question? That's what I thought.

Commemorating the Pope does not mean that the Eucharist is being offered in his name. Another swing and a miss for you Isa.

So, I have to ask once more: So then Isa, you don't have a meaningful answer to Wyatt's question? That's what I thought.

^ So then Isa, you don't have a meaningful answer to Wyatt's question? That's what I thought.

Vatican issues final text of the Roman Missal, Third Edition, for the Dioceses of the United States of America

you might want to argue with his holiness:

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EX QUO (On the Euchologion) Pope Benedict

Encyclical of Pope Benedict XIV promulgated on 1 March 1756. To the Archbishops, Bishops and Other Clerics, Secular and Regular, of the Greek Rite Who Enjoy Favor and Communion with the Apostolic See.

It is said in addition that no discussions on restoring unity were ever begun without the acceptance of the prior condition that the commemoration of the Roman pontiff should be included in the sacred liturgy, nor was a union which had been agreed on regarded as complete until the previous condition had actually been put into effect. The clear result of all this is that the Latin and Greek churches agree in recognizing and affirming that the commemoration implies a profession of due subjection to the Roman pontiff as head of the Church, and of a willingness to remain in the unity of the Church. On the other hand the omission of this commemoration signifies the intention of steadfastly espousing schism.

and, in contrast to the unconsecrated bishop elect confirmed by the Vatican's fiat, no consecrated bishop is to be commemorated if he does not submitt to the Vatican (called 'schismatic') or teach the Vatican's dogmas (called 'heretical'):

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First Admonition-Commemoration of Bishop and Patriarch

18. Now follows the second part of this first admonition which, as was mentioned above, obliges the Greek priest during Mass, after praying for the Roman pontiff, to pray for his own bishop and his patriarch if they are Catholic. For if either is or both are schismatic or heretic, a commemoration should not be made.

^So then Papist, you don't have a meaningful question to your supreme pontiff's answer? That's what I thought.

So to answer your question "How can the Catholic Pope not be Catholic?" The Catholic Pope is Catholic

The original Pope, given that title before Rome appropriated it to itself.

And it is just that, only a title, just like Patriarch, Metropolitan and Archbishop in the Catholic Church. It carries dogmatic implications neither in the ecclesiology of the Catholic Church nor the Orthdoox episcopacy.

Yes, I'm aware the Vatican has twisted the definition of self-absorbition into defining Catholicism as submission to its supreme pontiff, but we stick with the definition that St. Ignatius and all the Fathers used:

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See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.

Not the bishop nominated by some supreme pontiff (who nowhere appears), but the local bishop consecrated by the Orthodox episcopate to unite his flock into the unity of the Catholic Church. The unity of the Catholic Church depends neither on communion with Pope Benedict XVI of Rome nor acknowledging the Orthodox bishop of Rome, Siluan, as Pope.

So, as you supreme pontiff Benedict taught, the head of your ecclesiastical community, being in schism from the Catholic Church and teaching heretical dogmas contrary to the Orthodox Faith, should by no menas be commemorated during the divine services. If follows from that, that their should be no sharing of sacraments.

You still haven't provided any evidence that the Eucharist is offered in the name of the Pope. Sorry Isa. No dice. Your failure at EO apologetics and anti-Catholics attacks is monumental.

Logged

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

It would be nice if ialmisry could actually post a coherent thought instead of just posting a large wad of quotes every time we ask him to explain something.

The purpose of it is to accuse and obfuscate rather than explain and clarify.

The purpose of it is to substantiate and document, making it clear what your magisterium explicitely teaches and explaining its implications.

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You have also noted by now that there are very clear language issues, so one would not care to make that even more apparent by trying to compose original note, etc.

Alll we have gotten are "original notes": nothing, besides your posting of Fr. Lev's article on the IC, but personal opinion rather than official statements.

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As I said earlier, if it is necessary for Orthodox believers to distort the realities of Catholic life and ecclesiology

Of course, being Orthodox, we preserve the realities of Catholic life and ecclesiology. That you cannot cite your magisterium to back you up isn't our problem.

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then that cannot but speak badly for Orthodoxy.

and the running away from "magisterial" statements: what does that say?

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Is Orthodoxy really that weak?

Orthodoxy founded the universe. Is the Vatican's statements over the centuries so weak that you fear to cite them?

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I don't think so but apparently there are those who are afraid.

You all are the ones afraid of citing your magisterium. Obviously, we don't have that fear.

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

34. That this Mystical Body which is the Church should be called Christ's is proved in the second place from the fact that He must be universally acknowledged as its actual Head. "He," as St. Paul says, "is the Head of the Body, the Church. [43] He is the Head from whom the whole body perfectly organized, "groweth and maketh increase unto the edifying of itself." [44]

35. You are familiar, Venerable Brethren, with the admirable and luminous language used by the masters of Scholastic Theology, and chiefly by the Angelic and Common Doctor, when treating this question; and you know that the reasons advanced by Aquinas are a faithful reflection of the mind and the writings of the holy Fathers, who moreover merely repeated and commented on the inspired word of Sacred Scripture.

36. However for the good of all We wish to touch on this point briefly. And first of all it is clear that the Son of God and of the Blessed Virgin is to be called the Head of the Church by reason of His singular pre-eminence. For the Head is in the highest place. But who is in a higher place than Christ God, who as the Word of The Eternal Father must be acknowledged to be the "firstborn of every creature? [45] Who has reached more lofty heights than Christ Man, who, though born of the Immaculate Virgin, is the true and natural Son of God, and in virtue of His miraculous and glorious resurrection, a resurrection triumphant over death, has become the "firstborn of the dead?" [46] Who finally has been so exalted as He, who as "the one mediator of God and men" [47] has in a most wonderful manner linked earth to heaven, who, raised on the Cross as on a throne of mercy, has drawn all things to Himself, [48] who, as the Son of Man chosen from among thousands, is beloved of God beyond all men, all angels and all created things? [49]

37. Because Christ is so exalted, He alone by every right rules and governs the Church; and herein is yet another reason why He must be likened to a head. As the head is the "royal citadel" of the body [50] -- to use the words of Ambrose -- and all the members over whom it is placed for their good [51] are naturally guided by it as being endowed with superior powers, so the Divine Redeemer holds the helm of the universal Christian community and directs its course. And as to govern human society signifies to lead men to the end proposed by means that are expedient, just and helpful, [52] it is easy to see how our Savior, model and ideal of good Shepherds, [53] performs all these functions in a most striking way.

10. One Body. In his Commentaryon the 17th Chapter of St. John’s Gospel,St. Cyril of Alexandria argues that the unity of the Church, modeled on the unity of Father and Son and realized through the gift of the Spirit, is primarily formed in us through the Eucharist in which the disciples of Jesus share:

For by liturgically blessing (eulogōn) those who believe in him into a single body – namely, his own – through sacramental participation, [Christ] has made them completely one body with himself and with each other. Who, after all, could divide, or alienate from natural unity with one another, those who are bound through the one holy body into unity with Christ? For if ‘all of us partake of the one loaf’ (1 Cor 10.17), all of us are formed into one body. It is impossible to divide Christ. That is the reason that the church is called the Body of Christ, and we are individually his members, as Paul understands it. For since we are all united with Christ through his holy Body - which we take, one and undivided, into our own bodies - we owe our own limbs more to him than to ourselves… How, then are we all not clearly one [Cyril goes on to ask] in each other and in Christ? For Christ is himself the bond of unity, existing at the same time as God and as a human being…. And all of us who have received one and the same Spirit – I mean the Holy Spirit – are blended together, in a certain way, with each other and with God… For just as the power of his holy flesh forms those to whom it comes into a single body, in the same way, I believe, the one Spirit of God, who dwells in all of us undivided, brings us all to a spiritual unity (Comm. on John 11.11 [ed. Pusey 2.735-737]).

Conscience holds us back from celebrating our unity as complete in sacramental terms, until it is complete in faith, Church structure, and common action; but conscience also calls us to move beyond complacency in our divisions, in the power of the Spirit and in a longing for the fullness of Christ’s life-giving presence in our midst. The challenge and the invitation to Orthodox and Catholic Christians, who understand themselves to be members of Christ’s Body precisely by sharing in the Eucharistic gifts and participating in the transforming life of the Holy Spirit, is now to see Christ authentically present in each other, and to find in those structures of leadership that have shaped our communities through the centuries a force to move us beyond disunity, mistrust, and competition, and towards that oneness in his Body, that obedience to his Spirit, that will reveal us as his disciples before the world.

10. One Body. In his Commentaryon the 17th Chapter of St. John’s Gospel,St. Cyril of Alexandria argues that the unity of the Church, modeled on the unity of Father and Son and realized through the gift of the Spirit, is primarily formed in us through the Eucharist in which the disciples of Jesus share:

For by liturgically blessing (eulogōn) those who believe in him into a single body – namely, his own – through sacramental participation, [Christ] has made them completely one body with himself and with each other. Who, after all, could divide, or alienate from natural unity with one another, those who are bound through the one holy body into unity with Christ? For if ‘all of us partake of the one loaf’ (1 Cor 10.17), all of us are formed into one body. It is impossible to divide Christ. That is the reason that the church is called the Body of Christ, and we are individually his members, as Paul understands it. For since we are all united with Christ through his holy Body - which we take, one and undivided, into our own bodies - we owe our own limbs more to him than to ourselves… How, then are we all not clearly one [Cyril goes on to ask] in each other and in Christ? For Christ is himself the bond of unity, existing at the same time as God and as a human being…. And all of us who have received one and the same Spirit – I mean the Holy Spirit – are blended together, in a certain way, with each other and with God… For just as the power of his holy flesh forms those to whom it comes into a single body, in the same way, I believe, the one Spirit of God, who dwells in all of us undivided, brings us all to a spiritual unity (Comm. on John 11.11 [ed. Pusey 2.735-737]).

Conscience holds us back from celebrating our unity as complete in sacramental terms, until it is complete in faith, Church structure, and common action; but conscience also calls us to move beyond complacency in our divisions, in the power of the Spirit and in a longing for the fullness of Christ’s life-giving presence in our midst. The challenge and the invitation to Orthodox and Catholic Christians, who understand themselves to be members of Christ’s Body precisely by sharing in the Eucharistic gifts and participating in the transforming life of the Holy Spirit, is now to see Christ authentically present in each other, and to find in those structures of leadership that have shaped our communities through the centuries a force to move us beyond disunity, mistrust, and competition, and towards that oneness in his Body, that obedience to his Spirit, that will reveal us as his disciples before the world.

OOOoooo! A quote! Let me first get over the shock before replying.

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

34. That this Mystical Body which is the Church should be called Christ's is proved in the second place from the fact that He must be universally acknowledged as its actual Head. "He," as St. Paul says, "is the Head of the Body, the Church. [43] He is the Head from whom the whole body perfectly organized, "groweth and maketh increase unto the edifying of itself." [44]

35. You are familiar, Venerable Brethren, with the admirable and luminous language used by the masters of Scholastic Theology, and chiefly by the Angelic and Common Doctor, when treating this question; and you know that the reasons advanced by Aquinas are a faithful reflection of the mind and the writings of the holy Fathers, who moreover merely repeated and commented on the inspired word of Sacred Scripture.

36. However for the good of all We wish to touch on this point briefly. And first of all it is clear that the Son of God and of the Blessed Virgin is to be called the Head of the Church by reason of His singular pre-eminence. For the Head is in the highest place. But who is in a higher place than Christ God, who as the Word of The Eternal Father must be acknowledged to be the "firstborn of every creature? [45] Who has reached more lofty heights than Christ Man, who, though born of the Immaculate Virgin, is the true and natural Son of God, and in virtue of His miraculous and glorious resurrection, a resurrection triumphant over death, has become the "firstborn of the dead?" [46] Who finally has been so exalted as He, who as "the one mediator of God and men" [47] has in a most wonderful manner linked earth to heaven, who, raised on the Cross as on a throne of mercy, has drawn all things to Himself, [48] who, as the Son of Man chosen from among thousands, is beloved of God beyond all men, all angels and all created things? [49]

37. Because Christ is so exalted, He alone by every right rules and governs the Church; and herein is yet another reason why He must be likened to a head. As the head is the "royal citadel" of the body [50] -- to use the words of Ambrose -- and all the members over whom it is placed for their good [51] are naturally guided by it as being endowed with superior powers, so the Divine Redeemer holds the helm of the universal Christian community and directs its course. And as to govern human society signifies to lead men to the end proposed by means that are expedient, just and helpful, [52] it is easy to see how our Savior, model and ideal of good Shepherds, [53] performs all these functions in a most striking way.

10. One Body. In his Commentaryon the 17th Chapter of St. John’s Gospel,St. Cyril of Alexandria argues that the unity of the Church, modeled on the unity of Father and Son and realized through the gift of the Spirit, is primarily formed in us through the Eucharist in which the disciples of Jesus share:

For by liturgically blessing (eulogōn) those who believe in him into a single body – namely, his own – through sacramental participation, [Christ] has made them completely one body with himself and with each other. Who, after all, could divide, or alienate from natural unity with one another, those who are bound through the one holy body into unity with Christ? For if ‘all of us partake of the one loaf’ (1 Cor 10.17), all of us are formed into one body. It is impossible to divide Christ. That is the reason that the church is called the Body of Christ, and we are individually his members, as Paul understands it. For since we are all united with Christ through his holy Body - which we take, one and undivided, into our own bodies - we owe our own limbs more to him than to ourselves… How, then are we all not clearly one [Cyril goes on to ask] in each other and in Christ? For Christ is himself the bond of unity, existing at the same time as God and as a human being…. And all of us who have received one and the same Spirit – I mean the Holy Spirit – are blended together, in a certain way, with each other and with God… For just as the power of his holy flesh forms those to whom it comes into a single body, in the same way, I believe, the one Spirit of God, who dwells in all of us undivided, brings us all to a spiritual unity (Comm. on John 11.11 [ed. Pusey 2.735-737]).

Conscience holds us back from celebrating our unity as complete in sacramental terms, until it is complete in faith, Church structure, and common action; but conscience also calls us to move beyond complacency in our divisions, in the power of the Spirit and in a longing for the fullness of Christ’s life-giving presence in our midst. The challenge and the invitation to Orthodox and Catholic Christians, who understand themselves to be members of Christ’s Body precisely by sharing in the Eucharistic gifts and participating in the transforming life of the Holy Spirit, is now to see Christ authentically present in each other, and to find in those structures of leadership that have shaped our communities through the centuries a force to move us beyond disunity, mistrust, and competition, and towards that oneness in his Body, that obedience to his Spirit, that will reveal us as his disciples before the world.

Thank you for sharing this Elijah Maria.

Logged

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

10. One Body. In his Commentaryon the 17th Chapter of St. John’s Gospel,St. Cyril of Alexandria argues that the unity of the Church, modeled on the unity of Father and Son and realized through the gift of the Spirit, is primarily formed in us through the Eucharist in which the disciples of Jesus share:

For by liturgically blessing (eulogōn) those who believe in him into a single body – namely, his own – through sacramental participation, [Christ] has made them completely one body with himself and with each other. Who, after all, could divide, or alienate from natural unity with one another, those who are bound through the one holy body into unity with Christ? For if ‘all of us partake of the one loaf’ (1 Cor 10.17), all of us are formed into one body. It is impossible to divide Christ. That is the reason that the church is called the Body of Christ, and we are individually his members, as Paul understands it. For since we are all united with Christ through his holy Body - which we take, one and undivided, into our own bodies - we owe our own limbs more to him than to ourselves… How, then are we all not clearly one [Cyril goes on to ask] in each other and in Christ? For Christ is himself the bond of unity, existing at the same time as God and as a human being…. And all of us who have received one and the same Spirit – I mean the Holy Spirit – are blended together, in a certain way, with each other and with God… For just as the power of his holy flesh forms those to whom it comes into a single body, in the same way, I believe, the one Spirit of God, who dwells in all of us undivided, brings us all to a spiritual unity (Comm. on John 11.11 [ed. Pusey 2.735-737]).

Conscience holds us back from celebrating our unity as complete in sacramental terms, until it is complete in faith, Church structure, and common action; but conscience also calls us to move beyond complacency in our divisions, in the power of the Spirit and in a longing for the fullness of Christ’s life-giving presence in our midst. The challenge and the invitation to Orthodox and Catholic Christians, who understand themselves to be members of Christ’s Body precisely by sharing in the Eucharistic gifts and participating in the transforming life of the Holy Spirit, is now to see Christ authentically present in each other, and to find in those structures of leadership that have shaped our communities through the centuries a force to move us beyond disunity, mistrust, and competition, and towards that oneness in his Body, that obedience to his Spirit, that will reveal us as his disciples before the world.

OOOoooo! A quote! Let me first get over the shock before replying.

What would be more shocking is if you were to actually engage the text, rather than play liguistic acrobatics.

Logged

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

3. The Church was born of the paschal mystery. For this very reason the Eucharist, which is in an outstanding way the sacrament of the paschal mystery, stands at the centre of the Church's life. This is already clear from the earliest images of the Church found in the Acts of the Apostles: “They devoted themselves to the Apostles' teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers” (2:42). The “breaking of the bread” refers to the Eucharist. Two thousand years later, we continue to relive that primordial image of the Church. At every celebration of the Eucharist, we are spiritually brought back to the paschal Triduum: to the events of the evening of Holy Thursday, to the Last Supper and to what followed it. The institution of the Eucharist sacramentally anticipated the events which were about to take place, beginning with the agony in Gethsemane. Once again we see Jesus as he leaves the Upper Room, descends with his disciples to the Kidron valley and goes to the Garden of Olives. Even today that Garden shelters some very ancient olive trees. Perhaps they witnessed what happened beneath their shade that evening, when Christ in prayer was filled with anguish “and his sweat became like drops of blood falling down upon the ground” (cf. Lk 22:44). The blood which shortly before he had given to the Church as the drink of salvation in the sacrament of the Eucharist, began to be shed; its outpouring would then be completed on Golgotha to become the means of our redemption: “Christ... as high priest of the good things to come..., entered once for all into the Holy Place, taking not the blood of goats and calves but his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption” (Heb 9:11- 12).

4. The hour of our redemption. Although deeply troubled, Jesus does not flee before his “hour”. “And what shall I say? 'Father, save me from this hour?' No, for this purpose I have come to this hour” (Jn 12:27). He wanted his disciples to keep him company, yet he had to experience loneliness and abandonment: “So, could you not watch with me one hour? Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation” (Mt 26:40- 41). Only John would remain at the foot of the Cross, at the side of Mary and the faithful women. The agony in Gethsemane was the introduction to the agony of the Cross on Good Friday. The holy hour, the hour of the redemption of the world. Whenever the Eucharist is celebrated at the tomb of Jesus in Jerusalem, there is an almost tangible return to his “hour”, the hour of his Cross and glorification. Every priest who celebrates Holy Mass, together with the Christian community which takes part in it, is led back in spirit to that place and that hour.

“He was crucified, he suffered death and was buried; he descended to the dead; on the third day he rose again”. The words of the profession of faith are echoed by the words of contemplation and proclamation: “This is the wood of the Cross, on which hung the Saviour of the world. Come, let us worship”. This is the invitation which the Church extends to all in the afternoon hours of Good Friday. She then takes up her song during the Easter season in order to proclaim: “The Lord is risen from the tomb; for our sake he hung on the Cross, Alleluia”.

5. “Mysterium fidei! - The Mystery of Faith!”. When the priest recites or chants these words, all present acclaim: “We announce your death, O Lord, and we proclaim your resurrection, until you come in glory”.

In these or similar words the Church, while pointing to Christ in the mystery of his passion, also reveals her own mystery: Ecclesia de Eucharistia. By the gift of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost the Church was born and set out upon the pathways of the world, yet a decisive moment in her taking shape was certainly the institution of the Eucharist in the Upper Room. Her foundation and wellspring is the whole Triduum paschale, but this is as it were gathered up, foreshadowed and “concentrated' for ever in the gift of the Eucharist. In this gift Jesus Christ entrusted to his Church the perennial making present of the paschal mystery. With it he brought about a mysterious “oneness in time” between that Triduum and the passage of the centuries.

3. The Church was born of the paschal mystery. For this very reason the Eucharist, which is in an outstanding way the sacrament of the paschal mystery, stands at the centre of the Church's life. This is already clear from the earliest images of the Church found in the Acts of the Apostles: “They devoted themselves to the Apostles' teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers” (2:42). The “breaking of the bread” refers to the Eucharist. Two thousand years later, we continue to relive that primordial image of the Church. At every celebration of the Eucharist, we are spiritually brought back to the paschal Triduum: to the events of the evening of Holy Thursday, to the Last Supper and to what followed it. The institution of the Eucharist sacramentally anticipated the events which were about to take place, beginning with the agony in Gethsemane. Once again we see Jesus as he leaves the Upper Room, descends with his disciples to the Kidron valley and goes to the Garden of Olives. Even today that Garden shelters some very ancient olive trees. Perhaps they witnessed what happened beneath their shade that evening, when Christ in prayer was filled with anguish “and his sweat became like drops of blood falling down upon the ground” (cf. Lk 22:44). The blood which shortly before he had given to the Church as the drink of salvation in the sacrament of the Eucharist, began to be shed; its outpouring would then be completed on Golgotha to become the means of our redemption: “Christ... as high priest of the good things to come..., entered once for all into the Holy Place, taking not the blood of goats and calves but his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption” (Heb 9:11- 12).

4. The hour of our redemption. Although deeply troubled, Jesus does not flee before his “hour”. “And what shall I say? 'Father, save me from this hour?' No, for this purpose I have come to this hour” (Jn 12:27). He wanted his disciples to keep him company, yet he had to experience loneliness and abandonment: “So, could you not watch with me one hour? Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation” (Mt 26:40- 41). Only John would remain at the foot of the Cross, at the side of Mary and the faithful women. The agony in Gethsemane was the introduction to the agony of the Cross on Good Friday. The holy hour, the hour of the redemption of the world. Whenever the Eucharist is celebrated at the tomb of Jesus in Jerusalem, there is an almost tangible return to his “hour”, the hour of his Cross and glorification. Every priest who celebrates Holy Mass, together with the Christian community which takes part in it, is led back in spirit to that place and that hour.

“He was crucified, he suffered death and was buried; he descended to the dead; on the third day he rose again”. The words of the profession of faith are echoed by the words of contemplation and proclamation: “This is the wood of the Cross, on which hung the Saviour of the world. Come, let us worship”. This is the invitation which the Church extends to all in the afternoon hours of Good Friday. She then takes up her song during the Easter season in order to proclaim: “The Lord is risen from the tomb; for our sake he hung on the Cross, Alleluia”.

5. “Mysterium fidei! - The Mystery of Faith!”. When the priest recites or chants these words, all present acclaim: “We announce your death, O Lord, and we proclaim your resurrection, until you come in glory”.

In these or similar words the Church, while pointing to Christ in the mystery of his passion, also reveals her own mystery: Ecclesia de Eucharistia. By the gift of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost the Church was born and set out upon the pathways of the world, yet a decisive moment in her taking shape was certainly the institution of the Eucharist in the Upper Room. Her foundation and wellspring is the whole Triduum paschale, but this is as it were gathered up, foreshadowed and “concentrated' for ever in the gift of the Eucharist. In this gift Jesus Christ entrusted to his Church the perennial making present of the paschal mystery. With it he brought about a mysterious “oneness in time” between that Triduum and the passage of the centuries.

and by extension

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9. The Eucharist, as Christ's saving presence in the community of the faithful and its spiritual food, is the most precious possession which the Church can have in her journey through history. This explains the lively concern which she has always shown for the Eucharistic mystery, a concern which finds authoritative expression in the work of the Councils and the Popes. How can we not admire the doctrinal expositions of the Decrees on the Most Holy Eucharist and on the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass promulgated by the Council of Trent? For centuries those Decrees guided theology and catechesis, and they are still a dogmatic reference-point for the continual renewal and growth of God's People in faith and in love for the Eucharist. In times closer to our own, three Encyclical Letters should be mentioned: the Encyclical Mirae Caritatis of Leo XIII (28 May 1902),5 the Encyclical Mediator Dei of Pius XII (20 November 1947)6 and the Encyclical Mysterium Fidei of Paul VI (3 September 1965).7

The Second Vatican Council, while not issuing a specific document on the Eucharistic mystery, considered its various aspects throughout its documents, especially the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church Lumen Gentium and the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy Sacrosanctum Concilium.

3. The Church was born of the paschal mystery. For this very reason the Eucharist, which is in an outstanding way the sacrament of the paschal mystery, stands at the centre of the Church's life. This is already clear from the earliest images of the Church found in the Acts of the Apostles: “They devoted themselves to the Apostles' teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers” (2:42). The “breaking of the bread” refers to the Eucharist. Two thousand years later, we continue to relive that primordial image of the Church. At every celebration of the Eucharist, we are spiritually brought back to the paschal Triduum: to the events of the evening of Holy Thursday, to the Last Supper and to what followed it. The institution of the Eucharist sacramentally anticipated the events which were about to take place, beginning with the agony in Gethsemane. Once again we see Jesus as he leaves the Upper Room, descends with his disciples to the Kidron valley and goes to the Garden of Olives. Even today that Garden shelters some very ancient olive trees. Perhaps they witnessed what happened beneath their shade that evening, when Christ in prayer was filled with anguish “and his sweat became like drops of blood falling down upon the ground” (cf. Lk 22:44). The blood which shortly before he had given to the Church as the drink of salvation in the sacrament of the Eucharist, began to be shed; its outpouring would then be completed on Golgotha to become the means of our redemption: “Christ... as high priest of the good things to come..., entered once for all into the Holy Place, taking not the blood of goats and calves but his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption” (Heb 9:11- 12).

4. The hour of our redemption. Although deeply troubled, Jesus does not flee before his “hour”. “And what shall I say? 'Father, save me from this hour?' No, for this purpose I have come to this hour” (Jn 12:27). He wanted his disciples to keep him company, yet he had to experience loneliness and abandonment: “So, could you not watch with me one hour? Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation” (Mt 26:40- 41). Only John would remain at the foot of the Cross, at the side of Mary and the faithful women. The agony in Gethsemane was the introduction to the agony of the Cross on Good Friday. The holy hour, the hour of the redemption of the world. Whenever the Eucharist is celebrated at the tomb of Jesus in Jerusalem, there is an almost tangible return to his “hour”, the hour of his Cross and glorification. Every priest who celebrates Holy Mass, together with the Christian community which takes part in it, is led back in spirit to that place and that hour.

“He was crucified, he suffered death and was buried; he descended to the dead; on the third day he rose again”. The words of the profession of faith are echoed by the words of contemplation and proclamation: “This is the wood of the Cross, on which hung the Saviour of the world. Come, let us worship”. This is the invitation which the Church extends to all in the afternoon hours of Good Friday. She then takes up her song during the Easter season in order to proclaim: “The Lord is risen from the tomb; for our sake he hung on the Cross, Alleluia”.

5. “Mysterium fidei! - The Mystery of Faith!”. When the priest recites or chants these words, all present acclaim: “We announce your death, O Lord, and we proclaim your resurrection, until you come in glory”.

In these or similar words the Church, while pointing to Christ in the mystery of his passion, also reveals her own mystery: Ecclesia de Eucharistia. By the gift of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost the Church was born and set out upon the pathways of the world, yet a decisive moment in her taking shape was certainly the institution of the Eucharist in the Upper Room. Her foundation and wellspring is the whole Triduum paschale, but this is as it were gathered up, foreshadowed and “concentrated' for ever in the gift of the Eucharist. In this gift Jesus Christ entrusted to his Church the perennial making present of the paschal mystery. With it he brought about a mysterious “oneness in time” between that Triduum and the passage of the centuries.

and by extension

Quote

9. The Eucharist, as Christ's saving presence in the community of the faithful and its spiritual food, is the most precious possession which the Church can have in her journey through history. This explains the lively concern which she has always shown for the Eucharistic mystery, a concern which finds authoritative expression in the work of the Councils and the Popes. How can we not admire the doctrinal expositions of the Decrees on the Most Holy Eucharist and on the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass promulgated by the Council of Trent? For centuries those Decrees guided theology and catechesis, and they are still a dogmatic reference-point for the continual renewal and growth of God's People in faith and in love for the Eucharist. In times closer to our own, three Encyclical Letters should be mentioned: the Encyclical Mirae Caritatis of Leo XIII (28 May 1902),5 the Encyclical Mediator Dei of Pius XII (20 November 1947)6 and the Encyclical Mysterium Fidei of Paul VI (3 September 1965).7

The Second Vatican Council, while not issuing a specific document on the Eucharistic mystery, considered its various aspects throughout its documents, especially the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church Lumen Gentium and the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy Sacrosanctum Concilium.

and then by further extension

Ut unum sint

9. Jesus himself, at the hour of his Passion, prayed "that they may all be one" (Jn 17:21). This unity, which the Lord has bestowed on his Church and in which he wishes to embrace all people, is not something added on, but stands at the very heart of Christ's mission. Nor is it some secondary attribute of the community of his disciples. Rather, it belongs to the very essence of this community. God wills the Church, because he wills unity, and unity is an expression of the whole depth of his agape.

In effect, this unity bestowed by the Holy Spirit does not merely consist in the gathering of people as a collection of individuals. It is a unity constituted by the bonds of the profession of faith, the sacraments and hierarchical communion.10 The faithful are one because, in the Spirit, they are in communion with the Son and, in him, share in his communion with the Father: "Our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ" (1 Jn 1:3). For the Catholic Church, then, thecommunion of Christians is none other than the manifestation in them of the grace by which God makes them sharers in his own communion, which is his eternal life. Christ's words "that they may be one" are thus his prayer to the Father that the Father's plan may be fully accomplished, in such a way that everyone may clearly see "what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things" (Eph 3:9). To believe in Christ means to desire unity; to desire unity means to desire the Church; to desire the Church means to desire the communion of grace which corresponds to the Father's plan from all eternity. Such is the meaning of Christ's prayer: "Ut unum sint".

10. In the present situation of the lack of unity among Christians and of the confident quest for full communion, the Catholic faithful are conscious of being deeply challenged by the Lord of the Church. The Second Vatican Council strengthened their commitment with a clear ecclesiological vision, open to all the ecclesial values present among other Christians. The Catholic faithful face the ecumenical question in a spirit of faith.

The Council states that the Church of Christ "subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him", and at the same time acknowledges that "many elements of sanctification and of truth can be found outside her visible structure. These elements, however, as gifts properly belonging to the Church of Christ, possess an inner dynamism towards Catholic unity".11

"It follows that these separated Churches and Communities, though we believe that they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and value in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church".12

11. The Catholic Church thus affirms that during the two thousand years of her history she has been preserved in unity, with all the means with which God wishes to endow his Church, and this despite the often grave crises which have shaken her, the infidelity of some of her ministers, and the faults into which her members daily fall. The Catholic Church knows that, by virtue of the strength which comes to her from the Spirit, the weaknesses, mediocrity, sins and at times the betrayals of some of her children cannot destroy what God has bestowed on her as part of his plan of grace. Moreover, "the powers of death shall not prevail against it" (Mt 16:18). Even so, the Catholic Church does not forget that many among her members cause God's plan to be discernible only with difficulty. Speaking of the lack of unity among Christians, the Decree on Ecumenism does not ignore the fact that "people of both sides were to blame",13 and acknowledges that responsibility cannot be attributed only to the "other side". By God's grace, however, neither what belongs to the structure of the Church of Christ nor that communion which still exists with the other Churches and Ecclesial Communities has been destroyed.

Indeed, the elements of sanctification and truth present in the other Christian Communities, in a degree which varies from one to the other, constitute the objective basis of the communion, albeit imperfect, which exists between them and the Catholic Church.

To the extent that these elements are found in other Christian Communities, the one Church of Christ is effectively present in them. For this reason the Second Vatican Council speaks of a certain, though imperfect communion. The Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium stresses that the Catholic Church "recognizes that in many ways she is linked" 14 with these Communities by a true union in the Holy Spirit.

You still haven't provided any evidence that the Eucharist is offered in the name of the Pope. Sorry Isa. No dice. Your failure at EO apologetics and anti-Catholics attacks is monumental.

Your canons promulagated by your supreme pontiff (and posted here by me here), the liturgics promulgated by your supreme pontiffs (and posted by me here), and the interpretation by your supreme pontiff Benedict XIV (and posted by me here), are clear enough for any reader to look. As your supreme pontiff told those of us who submitted to him

Quote

the commemoration implies a profession of due subjection to the Roman pontiff as head of the Church, and of a willingness to remain in the unity of the Church. On the other hand the omission of this commemoration signifies the intention of steadfastly espousing schism

Answered by Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy at the Regina Apostolorum Pontifical University

...the intercessions of the first two Eucharistic Prayers contain the expression "una cum" — "together with N. our Pope and N. our Bishop" (although the same Latin expression is translated differently in the two prayers). This "together with" is not just a praying-for but a praying-with by which we are united through the celebrating priest to the bishop and through him to the Pope and the universal Church.

The General Instruction of the Roman Missal, No. 149, addresses this point:...Because ecclesial unity is formed through the pope...

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

10. One Body. In his Commentaryon the 17th Chapter of St. John’s Gospel,St. Cyril of Alexandria argues that the unity of the Church, modeled on the unity of Father and Son and realized through the gift of the Spirit, is primarily formed in us through the Eucharist in which the disciples of Jesus share:

For by liturgically blessing (eulogōn) those who believe in him into a single body – namely, his own – through sacramental participation, [Christ] has made them completely one body with himself and with each other. Who, after all, could divide, or alienate from natural unity with one another, those who are bound through the one holy body into unity with Christ? For if ‘all of us partake of the one loaf’ (1 Cor 10.17), all of us are formed into one body. It is impossible to divide Christ. That is the reason that the church is called the Body of Christ, and we are individually his members, as Paul understands it. For since we are all united with Christ through his holy Body - which we take, one and undivided, into our own bodies - we owe our own limbs more to him than to ourselves… How, then are we all not clearly one [Cyril goes on to ask] in each other and in Christ? For Christ is himself the bond of unity, existing at the same time as God and as a human being…. And all of us who have received one and the same Spirit – I mean the Holy Spirit – are blended together, in a certain way, with each other and with God… For just as the power of his holy flesh forms those to whom it comes into a single body, in the same way, I believe, the one Spirit of God, who dwells in all of us undivided, brings us all to a spiritual unity (Comm. on John 11.11 [ed. Pusey 2.735-737]).

Conscience holds us back from celebrating our unity as complete in sacramental terms, until it is complete in faith, Church structure, and common action; but conscience also calls us to move beyond complacency in our divisions, in the power of the Spirit and in a longing for the fullness of Christ’s life-giving presence in our midst. The challenge and the invitation to Orthodox and Catholic Christians, who understand themselves to be members of Christ’s Body precisely by sharing in the Eucharistic gifts and participating in the transforming life of the Holy Spirit, is now to see Christ authentically present in each other, and to find in those structures of leadership that have shaped our communities through the centuries a force to move us beyond disunity, mistrust, and competition, and towards that oneness in his Body, that obedience to his Spirit, that will reveal us as his disciples before the world.

OOOoooo! A quote! Let me first get over the shock before replying.

What would be more shocking is if you were to actually engage the text, rather than play liguistic acrobatics.

The last part is actually how it works, the Orthodox diptychs, as it seems even the Vatican's authorities admit:

Then, as now, the names of all the autocephalous bishops are commorated in the ditpychs of their peers: despite what he goes on to say, the four patriarchs were commemorated by the Pope of Rome.

and, in contrast to the unconsecrated bishop elect confirmed by the Vatican's fiat, no consecrated bishop is to be commemorated if he does not submitt to the Vatican (called 'schismatic') or teach the Vatican's dogmas (called 'heretical'):

Quote

"The names of the eastern patriarchs have never been pronounced by the Roman church nor for that matter by any Latin church."

An outright contradiction of himself, let alone a lie.

contrast this with the commemoration of infidel rulers

engage =/= rubberstamp

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

26. For the joy and edification of everyone, We would like to review with you, Venerable Brothers, the doctrine on the Mystery of the Eucharist that has been handed down, and that the Catholic Church holds and teaches with unanimity.

Re-enactment at Heart of Doctrine

27. It is a good idea to recall at the very outset what may be termed the heart and core of the doctrine, namely that, by means of the Mystery of the Eucharist, the Sacrifice of the Cross which was once carried out on Calvary is re-enacted in wonderful fashion and is constantly recalled, and its salvific power is applied to the forgiving of the sins we commit each day." (12)

28. just as Moses made the Old Testament sacred with the blood of calves, (13) so too Christ the Lord took the New Testament, of which He is the Mediator, and made it sacred through His own blood, in instituting the mystery of the Eucharist. For, as the Evangelists narrate, at the Last Supper "he took bread, and blessed and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, This is my body, given for you; do this for a commemoration of me. And so with the cup, when supper was ended, This cup, he said, is the new testament, in my Blood which is to be shed for you." (l4) And by bidding the Apostles to do this in memory of Him, He made clear that He wanted it to be forever repeated. This intention of Christ was faithfully carried out by the primitive Church through her adherence to the teaching of the Apostles and through her gatherings to celebrate the Eucharistic Sacrifice. As St. Luke is careful to point out, "They occupied themselves continually with the Apostles' teaching, their fellowship in the breaking of bread, and the fixed times of prayer." (l5) The faithful used to derive such spiritual fervor from this practice that it was said of them that "there was one heart and soul in all the company of the believers." (16)

New Offering of the New Testament

29. Moreover, the Apostle Paul, who faithfully transmitted to us what he had received from the Lord, (17) is clearly speaking of the Eucharistic Sacrifice when he points out that Christians ought not take part in pagan sacrifices, precisely because they have been made partakers of the table of the Lord. "Is not this cup we bless," he says, "a participation in Christ's Blood? Is not the Bread we break a participation in Christ's Body? . . . To drink the Lord's cup, and yet to drink the cup of evil spirits, to share the Lord's feast, and to share the feast of evil spirits, is impossible for you." (18) Foreshadowed by Malachias, (19) this new oblation of the New Testament has always been offered by the Church, in accordance with the teaching of Our Lord and the Apostles, "not only to atone for the sins and punishments and satisfactions of the living faithful and to appeal for their other needs, but also to help those who have died in Christ but have not yet been completely purified." (20)

34. The few things that We have touched upon concerning the Sacrifice of the Mass encourage Us to say something about the Sacrament of the Eucharist, since both Sacrifice and Sacrament pertain to the same mystery and cannot be separated from each other. The Lord is immolated in an unbloody way in the Sacrifice of the Mass and He re-presents the sacrifice of the Cross and applies its salvific power at the moment when he becomes sacramentally present— through the words of consecration—as the spiritual food of the faithful, under the appearances of bread and wine.

Various Ways in Which Christ is Present

35. All of us realize that there is more than one way in which Christ is present in His Church. We want to go into this very joyful subject, which the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy presented briefly, (30) at somewhat greater length. Christ is present in His Church when she prays, since He is the one who "prays for us and prays in us and to whom we pray: He prays for us as our priest, He prays in us as our head, He is prayed to by us as our God" (31); and He is the one who has promised, "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, I am there in the midst of them." (32) He is present in the Church as she performs her works of mercy, not just because whatever good we do to one of His least brethren we do to Christ Himself, (33)but also because Christ is the one who performs these works through the Church and who continually helps men with His divine love. He is present in the Church as she moves along on her pilgrimage with a longing to reach the portals of eternal life, for He is the one who dwells in our hearts through faith, (34) and who instills charity in them through the Holy Spirit whom He gives to us. (35)

36. In still another very genuine way, He is present in the Church as she preaches, since the Gospel which she proclaims is the word of God, and it is only in the name of Christ, the Incarnate Word of God, and by His authority and with His help that it is preached, so that there might be "one flock resting secure in one shepherd." (36)

37. He is present in His Church as she rules and governs the People of God, since her sacred power comes from Christ and since Christ, the "Shepherd of Shepherds," (37) is present in the bishops who exercise that power, in keeping with the promise He made to the Apostles.

38. Moreover, Christ is present in His Church in a still more sublime manner as she offers the Sacrifice of the Mass in His name; He is present in her as she administers the sacraments. On the matter of Christ's presence in the offering of the Sacrifice of the Mass, We would like very much to call what St. John Chrysostom, overcome with awe, had to say in such accurate and eloquent words: "I wish to add something that is clearly awe-inspiring, but do not be surprised or upset. What is this? It is the same offering, no matter who offers it, be it Peter or Paul. It is the same one that Christ gave to His disciples and the same one that priests now perform: the latter is in no way inferior to the former, for it is not men who sanctify the latter, but He who sanctified the former. For just as the words which God spoke are the same as those that the priest now pronounces, so too the offering is the same." (38) No one is unaware that the sacraments are the actions of Christ who administers them through men. And so the sacraments are holy in themselves and they pour grace into the soul by the power of Christ, when they touch the body. The Highest Kind of Presence.

These various ways in which Christ is present fill the mind with astonishment and offer the Church a mystery for her contemplation. But there is another way in which Christ is present in His Church, a way that surpasses all the others. It is His presence in the Sacrament of the Eucharist, which is, for this reason, "a more consoling source of devotion, a lovelier object of contemplation and holier in what it contains" (39) than all the other sacraments; for it contains Christ Himself and it is "a kind of consummation of the spiritual life, and in a sense the goal of all the sacraments." (40)

You still haven't provided any evidence that the Eucharist is offered in the name of the Pope. Sorry Isa. No dice. Your failure at EO apologetics and anti-Catholics attacks is monumental.

Your canons promulagated by your supreme pontiff (and posted here by me here), the liturgics promulgated by your supreme pontiffs (and posted by me here), and the interpretation by your supreme pontiff Benedict XIV (and posted by me here), are clear enough for any reader to look. As your supreme pontiff told those of us who submitted to him

Quote

the commemoration implies a profession of due subjection to the Roman pontiff as head of the Church, and of a willingness to remain in the unity of the Church. On the other hand the omission of this commemoration signifies the intention of steadfastly espousing schism

Answered by Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy at the Regina Apostolorum Pontifical University

...the intercessions of the first two Eucharistic Prayers contain the expression "una cum" — "together with N. our Pope and N. our Bishop" (although the same Latin expression is translated differently in the two prayers). This "together with" is not just a praying-for but a praying-with by which we are united through the celebrating priest to the bishop and through him to the Pope and the universal Church.

The General Instruction of the Roman Missal, No. 149, addresses this point:...Because ecclesial unity is formed through the pope...

And the documents don't say that Eucharist is offered in the name of the Pope. The are offered in communion with him and the all of the Bishops, but not in his name, as if the Pope is the only real priest. I really don't understand why you are being dishonest.

Logged

"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

As the most Ancient and Orthodox of Churches (the Acoe's third Patriarch Mar Abris was a relative of Jesus, it was custodian of the most ancient Icon of Christendom the one you constructed all your icons from , Peter came to it first in Seleukia according to King Abgar's letters to Narses, and built the first physical building of a church for it, and Saint Thaddeus evangelized it first than anybody else, the Assyrian Queen Helena of Adiabene ruled all Jews outside Jerusalem which were the first Christians, ie: apostle of the circumcised) the Assyrian Church of the East believes that it is against the command "Let the little Children come to me" not to give the Eucharist to other Christians baptized in the name of Trinity and thinks this argumentation is all flawed and minimalistic, if only you all would read a book on the state of the Church prior to the first council of Ephesus and all the groups in a phone book which appeared after that date you would see what I am talking about.

I am profoundly troubled by reading the things Orthodox are saying on Roman Catholics here - unleavened bread...then why don't you use Holy Malka which was given by Saint John to all the Churches as the proper form of leavening? Why did you allow tyrants to say this was superstition and not preserve this tradition? You accuse the Latins of doing this, apply the same standard. "Ultramontanism"...then why does your "ecumenical Patriarch" call himself first among equals and tried to take over or hand over to his subjects foreign churches as "canonical territories" (ie: the ROC managed to convince one small Assyrian Church to join it and bulldozed the oldest liturgy in the world and subsituted it for Saint John Chrysostom's liturgy, that is wrong). Your Bishops also changed the definition of what a Bishop is! According to your reasoning you cannot consecrate the Host or perform sacraments as well (not that I believe this)! The whole talk on "the Greek says this" in particular makes me troubled, the most ancient semitic Churches (Syriac Orthodox, Maronites, ACOE) hold as their canonical text the Aramaic which our Lord spoke. You think this text was lost, you are wrong and the refusal to give up on this text by the said Church's proves my point (it was by the way forbidden to teach Greek in first century palestine to pious Jews). Purgatory...then why did Mark of Ephesus according to Fr. Popovich supposedly teach that God placed you in Hell until prayers and liturgy being celebrated for the deceased fished you, payed you out (sounds like purgatory to me, and I haven't even gone into tollhouses and such which emphasize even more the pay aspect). The True belief of the ancient Church (making use of the ancient language and culture of our Lord) we have preserved can be read in the last few chapters of the Book of the Bee by Mar Shleimon of Basra. You call the RCC heterodox for having 21 councils it calls ecumenical but you have 7 and the Oriental Orthodox have only 3, and the ACOE only agreed to Nicea, Constantinople I (2). You say those who prevented their beliefs from being corrupted are "Nestorian" but you give the benefit of a doubt on so called heresy to those who's "Pope" gave you a Saint (Flavian). Ylou know what I'm talking about. Is this not wrong? Why do you blame others for the same mistakes you commit ? Pull the plank out of your own eyes O Pharisees ! Thank God your hierarchs can see all this and decide prudently.

What a fascinating and thought provoking post. I would love to read up more on your Church.

Go try to pass a counterfeit $100 bill at the bank and tell us how "the senseless bickering and one upmanship" goes.

<<John 4:33>>"You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know."

Btw, the "dead men's bones" we are full of-the relics of the saints upon which we celebrate our sacraments, are quite clean.

If I worship at a Catholic Church one day and the next I worship the same God and his son Jesus at the Orthodox Church , you who condemn that is the counterfeit bill or you will see that when you are judged by your divisiveness . Jesus said "Blessed are the Peacemakers , and the Meek".

« Last Edit: November 17, 2010, 05:44:53 PM by Sinful Hypocrite »

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The Lord gathers his sheep, I fear I am a goat. Lord have mercy.

"A Christian is someone who follows and worships a perfectly good God who revealed his true face through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth.“

Thank you Wyatt, You are like an oasis in the wilderness. God bless you my friend.

Maybe if you hadn't wandered out of the Land of Milk and Honey, you wouldn't be lost in the wilderness in need of an oasis.

Beware of mirages.

You are the most lucky and blessed sinner ,to never feel lost in a world of hate. You are never chased out of the temple by an angry mob like Christ , maybe you are a prophet in your village?

No, I"ve been threatened with death by Muslims in the Muslim world as I dare to prefer the Son of God over their "prophet." So while you have enjoyed it seems the luxury of fuzzy feelings, I've had to grap hold to the Rock on which I stand.

You know I had not made a point of it but you brought it up here that the reason you are that way is you have to deal with Muslims all around you. Forgive them and try not to become bitter as we all have our tests. I can say that this came to me as to why you are so adamant when I saw the Arab Orthodoxy by your Profile,but did not want to disrespect your ethnicity before you brought it up, but as I grew up in Greek orthodoxy near Chicago and we are not taught or exposed to such vehement disagreements or nonacceptance of our neighbors beliefs.Jesus said to love our neighbors as ourselves is what you seem to need help on as far as trying a little more, as we all fail.

Logged

The Lord gathers his sheep, I fear I am a goat. Lord have mercy.

"A Christian is someone who follows and worships a perfectly good God who revealed his true face through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth.“

10. One Body. In his Commentaryon the 17th Chapter of St. John’s Gospel,St. Cyril of Alexandria argues that the unity of the Church, modeled on the unity of Father and Son and realized through the gift of the Spirit, is primarily formed in us through the Eucharist in which the disciples of Jesus share:

For by liturgically blessing (eulogōn) those who believe in him into a single body – namely, his own – through sacramental participation, [Christ] has made them completely one body with himself and with each other. Who, after all, could divide, or alienate from natural unity with one another, those who are bound through the one holy body into unity with Christ? For if ‘all of us partake of the one loaf’ (1 Cor 10.17), all of us are formed into one body. It is impossible to divide Christ. That is the reason that the church is called the Body of Christ, and we are individually his members, as Paul understands it. For since we are all united with Christ through his holy Body - which we take, one and undivided, into our own bodies - we owe our own limbs more to him than to ourselves… How, then are we all not clearly one [Cyril goes on to ask] in each other and in Christ? For Christ is himself the bond of unity, existing at the same time as God and as a human being…. And all of us who have received one and the same Spirit – I mean the Holy Spirit – are blended together, in a certain way, with each other and with God… For just as the power of his holy flesh forms those to whom it comes into a single body, in the same way, I believe, the one Spirit of God, who dwells in all of us undivided, brings us all to a spiritual unity (Comm. on John 11.11 [ed. Pusey 2.735-737]).

Conscience holds us back from celebrating our unity as complete in sacramental terms, until it is complete in faith, Church structure, and common action; but conscience also calls us to move beyond complacency in our divisions, in the power of the Spirit and in a longing for the fullness of Christ’s life-giving presence in our midst. The challenge and the invitation to Orthodox and Catholic Christians, who understand themselves to be members of Christ’s Body precisely by sharing in the Eucharistic gifts and participating in the transforming life of the Holy Spirit, is now to see Christ authentically present in each other, and to find in those structures of leadership that have shaped our communities through the centuries a force to move us beyond disunity, mistrust, and competition, and towards that oneness in his Body, that obedience to his Spirit, that will reveal us as his disciples before the world.

OOOoooo! A quote! Let me first get over the shock before replying.

Now back to this.

Going over the original document, my first question was whether this was a joint statement, or the Vatican's participants. Going into that might get this thread even more off the issue of sharing sacraments, so I might tackle that elsewhere.

As for what was quoted, we of course to not object to Pope St. Cyril's quote, but it is off point: he is speaking about the unity of the Church, not reuniting Churches (plural). Which underlines what is the crux of the problem "now to see Christ authentically present in each other." No Orthodox Church should be in the business of viewing ecclesiastical communities not in communion as the authentic body of Christ. Hence a waste of time and effort about agreements about the validity of the Vatican's sacraments: "Conscience holds us back from celebrating our unity as complete in sacramental terms, until it is complete in faith, Church structure, and common action."

"find in those structures of leadership that have shaped our communities through the centuries a force to move us beyond disunity, mistrust, and competition, and towards that oneness in his Body, that obedience to his Spirit, that will reveal us as his disciples before the world." The emphasis on "structures of leadership" have been the undoing of all the "unions." Bishops can sign agreements, but the Orthodox Faithful know that the patriarchs under the Vatican receive the pallium from there to reflect its theology, that the Vatican's priests cannot marry and know that a whole theology has been built up to justify that, that the Vatican's infants cannot be chrismated and whole theology has been built up to justify that, etc. (Prevous issues, like language, use of unleavened bread, etc. have been mooted somewhat). Then the whole Vatican II Novus Ordo and its abuse.

At point efforts would be better rewarded in coordinating common action from what is common in faith, e.g. against abortion, redefinition/devaluation of marriage, charities etc. and see if or when that leads to Church structure.

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth