Cutter wrote on Oct 20, 2012, 02:30:Yeah, but there are always gems in the city, Mash. It just takes work to find them. I grew up in East York - Donlands and Cosburn - so I know that area well - always been an east end boy and always will! I have a friend in Leslieville right now with a loft apartment in a house that's gorgeous and she pays $600 a month inclusive. So tack on another $100 for incidentals and the rest is gravy - less food obviously.

...

You in the wife interested in getting into the wine biz? Not making, but just growing grapes. Hell, maybe I'll kickstart a winery.

True enough on that one. There are gems, I grew up down londonish way. If you're lucky then you're lucky on finding stuff, back a few years ago though you were kinda stuck it wasn't a renters market as much as it is today.

I had a few friends out there in the patch a year or so back. Most work for the feds now though, my sister does as well. One of my other buddies works in provincial corrections up peace river way, as he puts it's the asshole of nowhere. Very nice and all that, as long as you don't mind -40C in the winter. Oh nice, PEC is pretty good. I'm not really interested in growing or making(too much of a pita in my book) I have considered beekeeping as a side job. One of my cousins does it now, but I have a friend who was right friendly with the folks at the Inniskillin winery at Niagara on the lake. She was a professional taster for 15 odd years for the LCBO, if I can get a hold of her I'll have her fire you off an email. And maybe she can put you in touch with them if you've got any questions.

Getting ahold of her might be the problem. Last I heard from her she was on her whirl-wind honeymoon tour of the world, and all that. Her and her hubby were planning on a 9mo tour before settling down out in BC. That was about 3 months ago when they left.

--"For every human problem, there is a neat, simple solution; and it is always wrong." --H.L. Mencken

And seeing as most couples with kids work that doesn't change anything.

LOL - if you think that having kids doesn't change anything financially then there's no way you have kids!

No I don't, but my point was that how many couples with kid(s) have one breadwinner - who only makes 2 grand a month. Jesus, if that's the case they shouldn't be having kids. Sell them off for scientific experiments!

"During times of universal deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act."

Yeah, but there are always gems in the city, Mash. It just takes work to find them. I grew up in East York - Donlands and Cosburn - so I know that area well - always been an east end boy and always will! I have a friend in Leslieville right now with a loft apartment in a house that's gorgeous and she pays $600 a month inclusive. So tack on another $100 for incidentals and the rest is gravy - less food obviously.

However my point was I have buddies working the trades in Alberta, Yukon etc. all making 100K plus a year but they bitch about their cost of living all the time. So it's really about the same as making 50 or 60 grand in the city. I'm fortunate because I don't have a family and make about 70k a year when everything is said and done - sometimes more, sometimes less, but usually more so it's the life of Reilly for me. So I know doing 2-3k a month - while not great - I still wouldn't be hurtin by any stretch.

My goal in the next few years is buying some acreage in Prince Edward County, living on it, and figuring out how to eke out an existence so I can do it. Not get rich mind you but just be comfortable. I'm thinking of planting vines for wine - as I'm a wine guy. Maybe some beekeeping, animal husbrandy on a small scale, that sort of thing. So long as I can own the property outright all I have to worry about is the property taxes which are next to nothing - for now at any rate - and Bob's yer uncle.

You in the wife interested in getting into the wine biz? Not making, but just growing grapes. Hell, maybe I'll kickstart a winery.

"During times of universal deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act."

Cutter wrote on Oct 19, 2012, 21:01:Yeah, but in that case we're talking about what's relative. I have buddies who work in the Yukon, the Oil Sands, etc. and make what most people consider huge bank but their cost of living is also absurdly high. It's not like it's cheap bringing in all those supplies. Take Toronto for example, poverty wage when adjusted for cost of living is $16 an hour. Way off from minimum wage. However, 2-3k per month ain't bad for anyone. You may not be getting ahead, but it's hardly poverty level even in any major city. You may not be living downtown in some sweet pad, but you're doing alright commuting from the burbs. The trick is - as always - finding the best value for your money. Hell, I'd love to live in the country but damn if I know how I could make a living out there.

Yeah, relative is a good point which is what I was trying for in my slightly drug induced state. Ah pain killers for the pain. But Fort Mac really isn't in the middle of nowhere perse, even Grand Cache and Grand Prairie aren't. My sister lives in GC, but milk is $8/4L there, and bread is $6/loaf. So she drives to GP for groceries every month and freezes everything perishable. What drives the cost is the fact that it's a coal mining town and the wages are high, so even if it costs low to bring it in. It's the cost that can be born. And I'm not even sure you can live on $16/hr in Toronto these days. 5ish maybe 6ish years ago when the ex and I were living off of Danforth and Broadview(about a 3min walk from the subway station) we were paying $1300/mo for a basement apt. Though I will say some of the fsking roach traps in that area...ugh. At least the house was nice.

I don't live in the country, but I live in a smallish enough community that it's just close enough to it. Small enough that people know you by face, and reputation but large enough that you've got all the amenities, or they're close by.

--"For every human problem, there is a neat, simple solution; and it is always wrong." --H.L. Mencken

Again it's relative to where you live and your cost of living. And seeing as most couples with kids work that doesn't change anything. If you're some cro-magnon who belives the wife's place is in the home and that's all you can make than that's your problem. I could be a billionaire and still tell you there's no way my wife wouldn't work. You carry your own water.

"During times of universal deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act."

jacobvandy wrote on Oct 19, 2012, 17:53:What the hell kind of diamond-encrusted palace are you living in if you consider 2-3k a month impoverished? I'm living in a very decent 2-bedroom apartment for $755/mo! If I had an extra 1-2 grand, I could eat whatever I want, finance a brand new car, and have a premium cable package with like 2000 channels! Sheeeit...

I can think of one for sure and that'd be oil patch money. At 2-3k a month unless you're living away from the patch, like in Grande Prairie and commuting in by plane to Fort Mac(fort mcmurray) and living on-site, you'll be living impoverished(there's a few other places away from the patch too). An example of how wacky prices are, the tim-tarts(girls and guys serving at tim hortons) make just under $18/hr which is enough to make ends meet.

Yeah, but in that case we're talking about what's relative. I have buddies who work in the Yukon, the Oil Sands, etc. and make what most people consider huge bank but their cost of living is also absurdly high. It's not like it's cheap bringing in all those supplies. Take Toronto for example, poverty wage when adjusted for cost of living is $16 an hour. Way off from minimum wage. However, 2-3k per month ain't bad for anyone. You may not be getting ahead, but it's hardly poverty level even in any major city. You may not be living downtown in some sweet pad, but you're doing alright commuting from the burbs. The trick is - as always - finding the best value for your money. Hell, I'd love to live in the country but damn if I know how I could make a living out there.

2k-3k a month with a wife and kids = struggling.2k-3k a month while single = LOADED.

“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” - Mahatma Gandhi

jacobvandy wrote on Oct 19, 2012, 17:53:What the hell kind of diamond-encrusted palace are you living in if you consider 2-3k a month impoverished? I'm living in a very decent 2-bedroom apartment for $755/mo! If I had an extra 1-2 grand, I could eat whatever I want, finance a brand new car, and have a premium cable package with like 2000 channels! Sheeeit...

I can think of one for sure and that'd be oil patch money. At 2-3k a month unless you're living away from the patch, like in Grande Prairie and commuting in by plane to Fort Mac(fort mcmurray) and living on-site, you'll be living impoverished(there's a few other places away from the patch too). An example of how wacky prices are, the tim-tarts(girls and guys serving at tim hortons) make just under $18/hr which is enough to make ends meet.

Yeah, but in that case we're talking about what's relative. I have buddies who work in the Yukon, the Oil Sands, etc. and make what most people consider huge bank but their cost of living is also absurdly high. It's not like it's cheap bringing in all those supplies. Take Toronto for example, poverty wage when adjusted for cost of living is $16 an hour. Way off from minimum wage. However, 2-3k per month ain't bad for anyone. You may not be getting ahead, but it's hardly poverty level even in any major city. You may not be living downtown in some sweet pad, but you're doing alright commuting from the burbs. The trick is - as always - finding the best value for your money. Hell, I'd love to live in the country but damn if I know how I could make a living out there.

"During times of universal deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act."

jacobvandy wrote on Oct 19, 2012, 17:53:What the hell kind of diamond-encrusted palace are you living in if you consider 2-3k a month impoverished? I'm living in a very decent 2-bedroom apartment for $755/mo! If I had an extra 1-2 grand, I could eat whatever I want, finance a brand new car, and have a premium cable package with like 2000 channels! Sheeeit...

I can think of one for sure and that'd be oil patch money. At 2-3k a month unless you're living away from the patch, like in Grande Prairie and commuting in by plane to Fort Mac(fort mcmurray) and living on-site, you'll be living impoverished(there's a few other places away from the patch too). An example of how wacky prices are, the tim-tarts(girls and guys serving at tim hortons) make just under $18/hr which is enough to make ends meet.

--"For every human problem, there is a neat, simple solution; and it is always wrong." --H.L. Mencken

Dev wrote on Oct 19, 2012, 18:58:This is a small project where the indie guy with no experience got in over his head.

The article is also incorrect on some points such as:

At this point, few of the myriad projects funded through Kickstarter have been completed.

MANY MANY kickstarter projects have been completed. Just because he's focusing on a few of the big video game projects from recently after double fine hit it big, means nothing about all the rest that happened year(s) ago. In fact, there's far more non-video game projects than video game projects from what I can tell, such as art, music, film, etc.

Using a single tiny $25k KS example (and a poor example at that, since they are still trying to work it out) to say ZOMG KICKSTARTER IS DYING! is about like the industry saying ZOMG PC GAMING IS DEAD because NPD says so.

This is my question. Not just for games but KS projects so far who have met their funding, what's the success rate. More specifically, what's the success rate not just initially but are they creating sustainable employment? It's one thing to actually get your project done and meet your obligations but what about after that - which is obviously the goal of anyone creating things beyond a one off like a game. Now that's some information I'm sure we'd all like to see.

"During times of universal deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act."

This is a small project where the indie guy with no experience got in over his head.

The article is also incorrect on some points such as:

At this point, few of the myriad projects funded through Kickstarter have been completed.

MANY MANY kickstarter projects have been completed. Just because he's focusing on a few of the big video game projects from recently after double fine hit it big, means nothing about all the rest that happened year(s) ago. In fact, there's far more non-video game projects than video game projects from what I can tell, such as art, music, film, etc.

Using a single tiny $25k KS example (and a poor example at that, since they are still trying to work it out) to say ZOMG KICKSTARTER IS DYING! is about like the industry saying ZOMG PC GAMING IS DEAD because NPD says so.

Beamer wrote on Oct 19, 2012, 11:34:"Investment" isn't quite right, either. Think a donation instead. An investment comes with a return. You're not getting a return with Kickstarter. Best case scenario you're saving 20% on a title.

If you look at it as a donation, then the best case scenario is you get a game for free. Not for a 20% discount. After I've supported the KS, I don't then again have to go buy it.

So you may be getting a discount (again, "may," I'm fairly certain FTL cost the same), but you're taking enormous risk.

If you back a game by "Billy and Karl Studios! We work on games in our spare time, d00d!", then yeah. If you back experienced studios, that risk is probably a whole lot less, though of course any of the Big Four (Double Fine, Shadowrun, Wasteland 2 and Project Eternity) may still collapse. I doubt it, though. These studios are in the hands of experienced guys who know what they're doing.

The game may not come out. It may come out having lost major features, including the entire SP campaign. It may come out buggy and broken. It may just suck.This is all risk you do not have when you purchase after launch.

True, but you do have another risk: That there is nothing to launch, and thus nothing to purchase if you don't back. Obviously some games are bound to make it anyway, whether you personally support or not, but if everyone starts thinking this way, the whole KS thing will collapse. We do run a risk that Project Eternity may not be the second coming of Baldur's Gate 2. On the flipside, had we not backed it, there would have NEVER BEEN a second coming of Baldur's Gate 2.

If you only look at the risk, then yeah, Kickstarting something makes no sense whatsoever. If you look at the benefit, that we can get the kind of games we've been wanting to play for the last decade and a half, but the big publishers only want you to play Call of Horseshit: Modern Cowshit 4, so we were never able to get them.

Considering it an investment just feels off. If you think of it that way, well, they're almost all awful investments and you'll get more putting the money you'd put into Kickstarter into Google stock this morning.

It's not an investment. I don't really know what to call it, to be honest, but you make an investment in something in order to make that money grow. Your money in a KS is never going to grow.

I've put upwards of $500 into a few of these. When it started it was fun. Name in credits? NPC? Awesome!These days I'll just go with the minimum, or go with a manufactured good that seems can't miss.

Yeah, I don't really care that much for my name in the credits. You'll see it once and go "holy shit, cool!" and then the list slides on, and the moment has passed, and you just realized you spent 50 bucks for those 3 seconds of "glory..."

Too much can go wrong, and the returns are terrible. FTL is hands down my game of 2012 right now, but what did I get for Kickstarting? And that was a very low-risk one as it was already in alpha/beta.

You got an actual game? Which you might not have gotten had you not KSed? Or you might have been able to buy it, but it'd have been less cool?

I'll typically read the resumé/bio of the developer(s) of a project thoroughly before deciding to donate (I skip that part for projects where the devs are industry veterans) in order to ascertain a project's practical long term viability. If there's no indication as to whether there exists any project management experience I tend not to donate or only donate a small amount. Vision and earning potential don't count for much if the project most likely won't reach completion.

To use an example, the project begun by the developer who worked on the original Ghost Recon ("Project Takedown" I think it was called) had a lot of things, both pros and cons, to consider. In the end, while it fell onto the high risk side I donated $15. In such cases I view it like buying lottery tickets: the likelihood of me getting what I want is small, so I only spend a little but I contribute because if I do "win" (getting a completed game that is fun) the payoff is orders of magnitude more significant than the risk.

“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” - Mahatma Gandhi

Is this the first sign of a Kickstarter bubble beginning to pop? The first in a long chain of shoes dropping as the crowd-funding dream slowly transforms into a nightmare? Or is it an anomaly, the rare exception to the rule?

No, it's the first sign that you should never support games by some dude who's working on it with a buddy. Only back experienced studios who know what the fuck they are doing, and who have proven they can get games out the door.

This really doesn't seem that difficult, but judging by the amount of money given to completely unknown people who "Will make some kind of game, and it will be all kinds of awesome!" (and that's all they say), it seems it either IS very difficult, or people are even dumber than I ever imagined.

So, yeah, sorry people who gave 28K to this. You really should have known better.

What the hell kind of diamond-encrusted palace are you living in if you consider 2-3k a month impoverished? I'm living in a very decent 2-bedroom apartment for $755/mo! If I had an extra 1-2 grand, I could eat whatever I want, finance a brand new car, and have a premium cable package with like 2000 channels! Sheeeit...