johnryan51:Food production went up in Ireland during this time. They were starved, it wasn't a famine.

Exactly. And the Irish people got more help from the Sultan of Turkey than the English government. What was in short supply were the cheaper food products that the lower classes were dependant on.IIRC, one Irish politician at the start of WW1 would not vote on war against Turkey. He said that as long as one Irishman remembered what happened in the famine, Turks should at least have one friend in the west.

Oh, and identifying centuries-old pathogens is in no way highly beneficial to numerous social and life sciences.

One of the greatest historical/archaeological/biological mysteries is the Athenian Plague. We know the bacteria responsible for bubonic plague; the debate with the Black Death is localizing the origin point of the mid-14th century strain. We have no real idea of what caused the plague to spread in 430 and again in 427-26 BCE, but it was likely a major factor in the Athenians losing the Peloponnesian War.

UNC_Samurai:Oh, and identifying centuries-old pathogens is in no way highly beneficial to numerous social and life sciences.

One of the greatest historical/archaeological/biological mysteries is the Athenian Plague. We know the bacteria responsible for bubonic plague; the debate with the Black Death is localizing the origin point of the mid-14th century strain. We have no real idea of what caused the plague to spread in 430 and again in 427-26 BCE, but it was likely a major factor in the Athenians losing the Peloponnesian War.

Stop changing the subject, this is about hating the English for being total assholes and letting my people starve just cause they had this idiot notion that by helping people in down times that they was going to make them dependent on them forever and be welfare queens more or less.

KellyX:Stop changing the subject, this is about hating the English for being total assholes and letting my people starve just cause they had this idiot notion that by helping people in down times that they was going to make them dependent on them forever and be welfare queens more or less.

KellyX:UNC_Samurai: Oh, and identifying centuries-old pathogens is in no way highly beneficial to numerous social and life sciences.

One of the greatest historical/archaeological/biological mysteries is the Athenian Plague. We know the bacteria responsible for bubonic plague; the debate with the Black Death is localizing the origin point of the mid-14th century strain. We have no real idea of what caused the plague to spread in 430 and again in 427-26 BCE, but it was likely a major factor in the Athenians losing the Peloponnesian War.

Stop changing the subject, this is about hating the English for being total assholes and letting my people starve just cause they had this idiot notion that by helping people in down times that they was going to make them dependent on them forever and be welfare queens more or less.

You're talking to someone whose paternal ancestors were Hessian mercenaries. I celebrate St. Patrick's Day by remembering how my ancestors got paid to beat up your ancestors.

KellyX:UNC_Samurai: Oh, and identifying centuries-old pathogens is in no way highly beneficial to numerous social and life sciences.

One of the greatest historical/archaeological/biological mysteries is the Athenian Plague. We know the bacteria responsible for bubonic plague; the debate with the Black Death is localizing the origin point of the mid-14th century strain. We have no real idea of what caused the plague to spread in 430 and again in 427-26 BCE, but it was likely a major factor in the Athenians losing the Peloponnesian War.

Stop changing the subject, this is about hating the English for being total assholes and letting my people starve just cause they had this idiot notion that by helping people in down times that they was going to make them dependent on them forever and be welfare queens more or less.

Hey the English did offer a modest proposal to fix all the Irish's problems, stop trying to blame the English.

KellyX:Stop changing the subject, this is about hating the English for being total assholes and letting my people starve just cause they had this idiot notion that by helping people in down times that they was going to make them dependent on them forever and be welfare queens more or less.

To be fair you probably mean Russell and the Whigs rather than the English as a whole - Peel and the Tories during the initial year or two of the famine tried various things to help (imported grain from the US, and later canceled the Corn Laws originally implemented to keep cheap imports from undermining British agriculture, etc.) It was only really when the Whigs took over with their belief in their laissez faire, libertarian ideals that things went from bad (but generally survivable) to disastrous.

ShadowKamui: Hey the English did offer a modest proposal to fix all the Irish's problems, stop trying to blame the English.

Precisely, the Irish should count themselves lucky, the Indians suffered far worse due to English mismanagement.

Did you mean that Irish-Americans should stop bleating about the wicked English because they're all living on land that was taken from the Native Americans with far worse cruelty, and will never be given back, and that therefore the Irish-Irish should shut up and thank god they weren't instead colonised by Americans?

xria:To be fair you probably mean Russell and the Whigs rather than the English as a whole - Peel and the Tories during the initial year or two of the famine tried various things to help (imported grain from the US, and later canceled the Corn Laws originally implemented to keep cheap imports from undermining British agriculture, etc.) It was only really when the Whigs took over with their belief in their laissez faire, libertarian ideals that things went from bad (but generally survivable) to disastrous.

One of the more amusing tidbits in The Difference Engine, Sterling and Gibson's alternative history from 1991, was a paragraph from a Irish peasant waxing rhapsodic about the fleet of ships full of corn that Prime Minister Byron sent to Ireland during the famine.

Sidoko:ShadowKamui: Hey the English did offer a modest proposal to fix all the Irish's problems, stop trying to blame the English.

Precisely, the Irish should count themselves lucky, the Indians suffered far worse due to English mismanagement.

Did you mean that Irish-Americans should stop bleating about the wicked English because they're all living on land that was taken from the Native Americans with far worse cruelty, and will never be given back, and that therefore the Irish-Irish should shut up and thank god they weren't instead colonised by Americans?

/confused

Seriously dude, don't edit posts to misquote people

Also read a freaking history book, Sonneillon was talking about the East India Company and the British Raj

Did you mean that Irish-Americans should stop bleating about the wicked English because they're all living on land that was taken from the Native Americans with far worse cruelty, and will never be given back, and that therefore the Irish-Irish should shut up and thank god they weren't instead colonised by Americans?

/confused

Having reread my original post I can see why my wording has confused, but I didn't mean the Native Americans, I actually meant the people who live in India. There were a series of famines during the 19th century partly due to British mismanagement and partly due to droughts that killed millions.

theorellior:Not to say that other factors were involved, but it was my understanding that the potato blight basically destroyed just about every bed of potatoes within a week in the affected areas.

It was a perfect storm of conditions really. Forced land locations, prevention of replanting in unaffected areas, the change in policy preventing grain and corn imports from outside the country, etc...

xria: To be fair you probably mean Russell and the Whigs rather than the English as a whole - Peel and the Tories during the initial year or two of the famine tried various things to help (imported grain from the US, and later canceled the Corn Laws originally implemented to keep cheap imports from undermining British agriculture, etc.) It was only really when the Whigs took over with their belief in their laissez faire, libertarian ideals that things went from bad (but generally survivable) to disastrous.

Exactly. Hit the nail on the head. It was ideological "the free market will sort everything out" attitude that was to blame, whereas the Tories - being more patrician - did not have a kneejerk response to charity.

theorellior:One of the more amusing tidbits in The Difference Engine, Sterling and Gibson's alternative history from 1991, was a paragraph from a Irish peasant waxing rhapsodic about the fleet of ships full of corn that Prime Minister Byron sent to Ireland during the famine.

I liked that too. In fact if you've ever studied British history from that period the book is a trove of good stuff. The historian in me condemns it as what if history at it's most blatant wishful thinking where the nerd in me goes "fark yeah!"

Sidoko:This text is now purple: Sonneillon: Precisely, the Irish should count themselves lucky, the Indians suffered far worse due to English mismanagement.

The Irish were smart enough to ally with the Americans.

You mean that Irish-Americans helped to wipe out the Indians and permanently steal the whole of North America so maybe they should either quit the self-righteousness or get off that stolen continent?

/still confused

We get it. You are confused. Figure out when people are talking about Native Americans or people residing in the country of India and you can rejoin the conversation on an adult level.

Now, Native Americans had allied with the British in many ways. Some Native Americans fought along side with the British and helped British trade in northern MI. That may have played a hand in Americans not being all too nice to them later. The British did not in anyway helped them, now did they? Be careful who you ally with.

lack of warmth:Now, Native Americans had allied with the British in many ways. Some Native Americans fought along side with the British and helped British trade in northern MI. That may have played a hand in Americans not being all too nice to them later. The British did not in anyway helped them, now did they? Be careful who you ally with.

The role of the War of 1812 and the prior colonial wars in the American mindset during the later Indian Wars is often ignored. There was a lot of pent up anger on the American frontier about the Native American role in the French&Indian Wars, the Revolutionary War, and the War of 1812. Perhaps opposing the Americans during three consecutive losing wars wasn't the greatest idea when their French and British allies abandoned them (and the continent) after 1812.

By 1813, the Indians weren't just in the way -- they were an active enemy nation on the border.

ethics-gradient:It was only really when the Whigs took over with their belief in their laissez faire, libertarian ideals that things went from bad (but generally survivable) to disastrous.

Exactly. Hit the nail on the head. It was ideological "the free market will sort everything out" attitude that was to blame, whereas the Tories - being more patrician - did not have a kneejerk response to charity.

IdBeCrazyIf:Just a giant whirlwind of shiat contributed to those conditions.

Well, now I've done some online reading, and that was an enormous clusterfark and no mistake. Most people shy away from calling the British response a genocide because they didn't *really* want to kill all those Irish.

Sidoko:This text is now purple: By 1813, the Indians weren't just in the way -- they were an active enemy nation on the border.

Damn those Injuns for resisting rape, murder and permanent theft of their homeland.

What they did to each other prior to the Europeans getting there or choosing losing sides in trade wars isn't anyone's fault but their own. The Aztecs' horrendous mistreatment and wars of conquest against their neighbors are why they lost to the Spanish and their native allies.

So drop the noble savage act, and save the crying for the ones that actually got screwed like the Cherokee.

ShadowKamui:What they did to each other prior to the Europeans getting there or choosing losing sides in trade wars isn't anyone's fault but their own. The Aztecs' horrendous mistreatment and wars of conquest against their neighbors are why they lost to the Spanish and their native allies.

So drop the noble savage act, and save the crying for the ones that actually got screwed like the Cherokee.

So you don't give a damn about genocide. Fine. Then stop bleating about a famine.

Sidoko:ShadowKamui: What they did to each other prior to the Europeans getting there or choosing losing sides in trade wars isn't anyone's fault but their own. The Aztecs' horrendous mistreatment and wars of conquest against their neighbors are why they lost to the Spanish and their native allies.

So drop the noble savage act, and save the crying for the ones that actually got screwed like the Cherokee.

So you don't give a damn about genocide. Fine. Then stop bleating about a famine.

ShadowKamui:Sidoko: ShadowKamui: What they did to each other prior to the Europeans getting there or choosing losing sides in trade wars isn't anyone's fault but their own. The Aztecs' horrendous mistreatment and wars of conquest against their neighbors are why they lost to the Spanish and their native allies.

So drop the noble savage act, and save the crying for the ones that actually got screwed like the Cherokee.

So you don't give a damn about genocide. Fine. Then stop bleating about a famine.

What point of Cherokee do you not understand?

I'm glad of your sympathy for the Cherokee. I look forward to your sympathy for every other native nation.

Sidoko:ShadowKamui: Sidoko: ShadowKamui: What they did to each other prior to the Europeans getting there or choosing losing sides in trade wars isn't anyone's fault but their own. The Aztecs' horrendous mistreatment and wars of conquest against their neighbors are why they lost to the Spanish and their native allies.

So drop the noble savage act, and save the crying for the ones that actually got screwed like the Cherokee.

So you don't give a damn about genocide. Fine. Then stop bleating about a famine.

What point of Cherokee do you not understand?

I'm glad of your sympathy for the Cherokee. I look forward to your sympathy for every other native nation.

Why should I feel sympathy for the ones wiped out by wars w/ the Iroquois?

Or should I feel bad for the Aztecs who invaded what it now Mexico City, brutally oppressed the locals and then lost when the remaining locals teamed up w/ the Spanish and revolted against them? Granted said locals then got stabbed in the back by the Spanish a few years later but that's a different story

Simply put you have no clue of actual history and just want to use the idiotic noble savage myth to go bashing Europeans