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Topic: Job 1:6 - Satan Among the Sons of God (Read 3822 times)

It is not in the criticism that I oft times find the offense, it is in the obdurate, implacable tone. Not even an intelligently self formulated argument, simply a regurgitation of *most christians* say *so and so* therefore, it is truth. Quite lamentable ...

>>>You can also find further support for what I am saying in 2 Peter 2:4-6,<<<

I don't believe so.

2nd Peter 2:4-6

"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;"

Just as the angels of the 7 churches are actually the messengers of the 7 churches and not supernatural beings from heaven. Likewise, 2nd Peter chapter 2 is a warning about the [aggelos] or messengers of God that sinned before and were cast down to hell bound in chains of Darkness reserved to judgment. In other words, they have lost their possition, their estate as messengers of light and are now in darkness awaiting their judgment at "the Last Day."

>>>Tony, are you an Angel? Or as you claim, are you a messenger of god?<<<

All God's people are [aggelos], messengers of God. Just as Scripture very unambiguously declared that John the Baptist and others were.

Luke 7:27

"This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my [aggelos] before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee."

So unless you think John the Baptist was a angel fropm heaven, the point is proved. Likewise, it is God's people who were spirits in prison (1st Peter 3:19) that were set free by the death of Christ that they might minister unto salvation. It is God's people, these messengers of God, who were cast down and bound in spiritual chains of darkness because of their rebellion. Just as we saw the 7 [aggelos] of the 7 churches given a warning by God to repent or else. These aren't supernatural angels, they are the messengers or ambassadors of the church. So the answer is Yes, we are those messengers, spirits of just men made perfect and sent by the Spirit of God to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation? Some do that, and some others have left their first love. Some are as the parable of the bad steward who hid his talent in the earth (Matthew 25:25) rather than pay it forward. The fallen messengers of the church (Revelation 2:5), are those (like Israel before them) who just give lip service to being ministering spirits unto salvation.

1st John 4:1

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

So then, God's people are to believe only the ministering spirits that are of God, not the ones who labor for themselves and/or speak evil of these truths of Scripture. Because many spirits, many false prophets are gone out into the world to deceive even the elect, if that were possible. You can tell the difference because the messengers of God are spirits that lean upon the authority of God's word alone, rather than upon their own church traditions, assumptions, speculations and even deceit. Spirits like the Apostle Paul.

1st Corinthians 3:5

"Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?"

2nd Corinthians 6:4

"But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,"

These were made ministering spirits by Christ going to the cross to die for them, as the very context of 1st Peter illustrates.

1st Peter 3:19

"By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;"

Those spirits in prison were us before Christ set us free, that we might be ministers of God unto salvation. Do I worry that the "traditional" understanding of all these verses is often quite a bit different? Not at all. Interpretations belong to God. When someone shows me a Scripture that says John was an angel, not a minister of God unto salvation, then I'll worry that I'm adding to the word.

"nosce te ipsum"

Peace,Tony Warren"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

>>>Hi, I understand what you guys are saying, but who were the messengers that sinned and were cast down and blinded? Israel?<<<

Yes, they were God's collective people. His messengers (not angels) are spoken of as Israel. As for the how and why they were cast down, the same way God's people have been cast down from the start. Consider the context of the previous verses that lead up to this, as context is always important. The context is God's rebellious people on earth and their judgment. It's not about lying, pernicious, heretical angels in holy heaven that had an insurrection and are thrown to the earth.

2nd Peter 2:1-3

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."

And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not."

The context is of false prophets and teachers coming in among God's people and by counterfeit or false words speak against the truth, those whose judgment is pending. That's the context--and in this context it says in the next verse:

2nd Peter 2:4

"For if God spared not the messengers that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;"

i.e., because if God did not spare them, what makes one think He will spare the rebellious now. The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and also to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished (2nd Peter 2:9). God is declaring that because of these things He brought judgment upon His messengers. Both in Jude 1:6 and here in 2nd Peter God is alluding to His previous messengers who had rebelled against Him, and so incurred his retribution wherein they are now without their first estate of the kingdom, and are reserved or held [tereo] in chains of darkness until the judgment of the last day. Chains illustrate them being bound. Not at all unlike what God said to the [aggelos] or messenger (not angel) of the church of Ephesus of having fallen.

Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write:

Revelation 2:5

"Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."

There you have your proof of what God sees as a fallen aggelos or messenger. He's not talking to an angel, but the messenger of this church at Ephesus and He's saying that this messenger had fallen and He is warning him to repent and do the first works (because he had left his first love). That is the same human messenger of the church that God judges and will hold in chains of darkness, just as He had done to the previous messengers. Chains of darkness imply they are bound in their darkness unable to extricate themselves from it. i.e., Israel blinded. The judgment implies they await or are reserved to the final judgment of the last day.

John 12:48

"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."

"nosce te ipsum"

Peace,Tony Warren"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

>>>And I suppose they think the angel that John saw come down from heaven with the key was not an angel either..<<<

That is correct. I don't think He is an angel, I know that He is Christ, the Arch or Chief Messenger who came down from Heaven to fulfill the obligations of the Covenant, and He did bind Satan and bring about the Promised reign of God's Saints! It is done! Speaking of both Himself and Satan and illustrating this specific binding, Christ says:

Matthew 12:28-29

"But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house."

Christ is this one that came to bind the strong man. Satan is the strong man. We were the spoil that Christ seized from Satan by right of conquest. That is without question the meaning. The bigger point for you here is that Christ says, Satan had to be bound First, and then only could one spoil his house. So then, before Christ could set us free, Satan had to be bound. And if that is all true, the Kingdom of God had come and the saints reign in it as Kings and Priests unto God. It was because of this action of Christ. Meaning Revelation's illustration of the Kingdom of God coming and Saints reigning after Satan was bound, is illustrated in this parable. Satan was bound by Christ in order for Him to be able to seize those satan held in bondage (his prisoners, Christ's spoil). Thus this messenger of Revelation 20 is the Messenger of the Covenant (Malachi 3:1) and not an angel.

Hebrews 12:24

"And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel."

Jesus is a messenger, not an angel. The messenger (same word that is translated Angel) of the Covenant of Malachi 3:1 is the Christ. This is the Lord who has come to His Kingdom, and by whom the covenant was confirmed (Daniel 9:27) or made strong in ratification.

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>>>...despite the fact God's word says he was an angel? <<<

Aren't you the one who says we should stick to a very LITERAL Reading of God's word? Well, the "literal" reading of that word is Messenger (and translated that way throughout Scripture). I'm sure you know that a translation is often not the actual word, or the actual meaning.

[Young's Literal Translation] (Revelation 20:1)

"And I saw a messenger coming down out of the heaven, having the key of the abyss, and a great chain over his hand,"

Despite you saying God's word says this was an Angel, it actually doesn't "LITERALLY" say that. And it is clear this Messenger is Christ, who decidedly cannot be an Angel because He is the Lord

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>>>They can't keep twisting what the word says.<<<

That's just it! I'm not twisting God's word because God's word doesn't say he was an angel, it says he was a messenger come down from heaven. Man's translation calls Him an angel, but the truth is that it was Christ, and Christ is decidedly not an angel, He is the Chief Messenger, the Messenger of the Covenant, which is clearly Christ. The translation of the word in the old Testament as Angel is "again" the exact same word found here.

Malachi 3:1

"Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts."

The Messiah is the Lord here, the Messenger of the Covenant, the only Messenger who is mediator of the New Covenant. The word translated Messenger is [mal'ak], the exact same word that is translated Angel in the Old Testament. Or in the New Testament, was John the Baptist who was sent before the Lord an Angel? Was the Messenger of the Covenant (Christ) an Angel? So then we know for certain that the actual word translated Angel does not "mean" angel, it means messenger. How many times does one have to prove that fact!

Yes, you can decry the fact that in Revelation 20 the Messenger with the chain to bind Satan 1000 years is not an Angel, but Christ, however, that doesn't make this truth null and void. That Messenger come down from heaven and Binding Satan for the sake of the Nations/Gentiles is Christ. Not an Angel, but the Lord God, the Messenger of the Covenant which Malachi spoke of.

"nosce te ipsum"

Peace,Tony Warren"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

And you ask if my post sounds right? :Say_what: Literal cannot be symbolical, symbolic is something figurative, it's a representative of something else, not that literal thing. As a mountain is symbolic of a Kingdom. A symbolic Mountain is not a literal mountain, it is a metaphorical illustration. Claiming the symbolic is literal is like claiming when Christ called His disciples sheep, the disciples were literal sheep. To use your words, "...does that sound right to you?"

James 1:8

"A double minded man is unstable in all his ways."

A sound exegesis is found to be consistent and in harmony with the Scriptures as well as with rational thinking. It is not contradictory, not erratic or illogical. One who is divided in his own thoughts is conflicted or discorded in his thinking. In a word, his thinking is unsound, double-minded like going right and left at the same time.

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>>>Don't be fooled by the Amillennialists here. There are many ways to have your eyes opened.<<<

I'm sorry but that's wrong also. There's only one way to have your eyes opened. The Holy Spirit of God working through His infallible and authoritative word. We are not blinded or deceived because we are sharper or smarter, but because we are secured or sealed by the Spirit. Amillennialists can't seduce anyone with their eyes on Cjhrist. Neither can Dispensationalists, Preterists or anyone else.

1st John 2:26-27

"These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."

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>>> One is through reading, and another is free will.<<<

If one can have their eyes opened through reading, then why are there so many blind readers. In fact, the vast majority of those who read are blind. The Scribes and Pharisees were among the best readers of Scripture, and yet they remained blind. As for free will opening up one's eyes, the will is not free but in bondage to Satan. In fact it was Christ who delivered us from death through subjection to that bondage of the will.

John 8:36

"If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed."

Hebrews 2:14-15

"Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage."

The doctrine of free will opens no one's eyes, in fact it brings one into bondage and blinds them to the inescapable need for Christ to overcome our sin tainted will and do it all Himself, Sola Gratia. The will of God by grace alone.

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>>>The Reformed view puts you in a box that you have no power to escape from,<<<

The Reformed view of Predestination sets us free from what is our inescapable box, because it receives God's word that apart from the unmerited favor of God through Sola Christos, no one would be saved by their own free will. i.e., we would forever remain in that box, a slave to our own will. We can't talk our way out of the box, we can't cry our way out, and we sure can't work our way out. It's all by sola fide--not yours, but Christ's.

Ephesians 2:8

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

Not of your own alleged free will, but by the Sovereign will of God. Not by your own alleged faith, but by the faithfulness of Christ on your behalf.

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>>>...where angels are just human and falling stars are Christians. Does that sound right to you?<<<

With slight correction of your wording, pretty much. Yes, it sounds right to me. Where messengers are human beings in the congregation who will be cast down if they do not repent of their transgressions. Yes, where falling stars represent messengers of God (Revelation 1-3), professing believers falling away from the kingdom of heaven on earth in apostasy. Yes, that sounds right to me.

But symbolic actually being literal? ...now that doesn't sound right to me.

"nosce te ipsum"

Peace,Tony Warren"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

>>>Why do you think so many commentaries took a simplistic or rudimentary view of Revelation,<<<

Personally, the best answer I can give is that they simply didn't know how to deal with it. When you don't know something, and you're writing a commentary, you either go over it as briefly or as superficially as you can, or else you fill the void with supposition, conjecture and speculation. With most commentaries I have read on the book, we generally get a combination of both. I don't blame any commentator for not knowing how to understand the symbolism, however much of the widespread wild speculation and guessing is not helpful or justified. I would rather not write something about Revelation, than to write something based solely on speculation with no Biblical root, basis or foundation. I believe many good theologians "basically" chose to skip over or briefly cover Revelation for that reason. We should also remember, God reveals what He wants in His own time, not ours. At any rate, understanding Revelation is not from our own efforts, it is part of the gift of God.

Matthew 16:17

"And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

It wasn't the flesh, it was God who revealed this truth to Simon. Catholics, Muslims, Israelites, Charismatics aren't blinded because we are smarter than they are to see the light, or we study harder, or our teachers are more honorable, it is God who reveals His secrets to His people through the Spirit of Truth. Without it, man can understand very little. All praise and glory for Revelation goes to God who reveals secrets to His people.

John 3:27

"John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven."

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>>>...especially the obvious symbolic nature of it? <<<

It's not that easy, indeed impossible without God drawing and giving us to understand such truths. For example, we can look at Christ's parables to the Judaizers and wonder, with all their "Scriptural Knowledge" how is it they couldn't have known that Christ was the fulfillment of the prophesies, or that when He spoke of eating His flesh they didn't understand the Spiritual nature of the words. It's because they had Scriptural knowledge, but lacked Spiritual knowledge, or what is really the Wisdom of the Spirit. But the fact is, it wasn't given to them to know.

Luke 8:10

"And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand."

Look at Saul before he was regenerated. He knew Scripture intellectually, but he really had no spiritual knowledge of the word until that day he was on his way to Damascus and the Spirit of God came upon him unto Salvation. It was only then that the apoastle Paul came to knowledge of the truths of Scriptures that he had read so many times before without this revelation. I'm sure Paul was afterward wondering why He hadn't seen all this before in Scripture or why he had not understood these truths. The principle here is the same, everything in God's own time.

1st Timothy 2:6

"Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."

Just as this confirmation that even to the Gentiles is the mystery of God's perfect salvation revealed n its own time. And the apostle Paul himself once an adversary of it, has been appointed to this exact office through Revelation.

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>>>It seems strange.<<<

Yes, it does seem strange once we know something as truth, but it didn't seem strange when we ourselves were ignorant of the meaning of the symbolism. For example, it didn't seem strange to me that this is the way many theologians understood the war in heaven until many years ago when I actually began digging deeper into Scripture and questioning the eachings through comparing Scripture with Scripture (Acts 17:11) as the Bereans, and it was then that I came to the understanding that the word angel is actually messengers, that pregnant women don't float in heaven with stars on their head, that a big red dragon wasn't picking off and throwing stars to the earth, angels weren't doing battle with each other in Heaven and that a woman wasn't wearing the sun for a dress. Yes, it seems really silly now, but without the Spirit of truth moving one to a thorough and sound exegesis of the book, you really can't make hide nor hair of it. So I try and have humility when it comes to others understanding, since as Joseph declared, it is not in me, God gives the answer of peace. He does so to whom He will, and in His own time.

Isaiah 28:21

"For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act."

Judgment of His own people, His strange (peculiar, curious, unheard of, enigmatic, unexpected, mysterious, puzzling ) work. That's why the nation of Israel, and now the church, cannot believe it. Nothing new under the sun.

Selah

"nosce te ipsum"

Peace,Tony Warren"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

>>> Satan was kicked out of heaven in the war with Michael, the archangel.

Revelation 12:7 & 8"And there was war in the heaven: Michael and his angels went to war with the dragon. And the dragon fought, and his angels; and he prevailed not, nor was their place found any more in the heaven".

There you have where Satan was in heaven and kicked out. Start taking the Bible literally and you will see this. Drew is correct.<<<

George, Those who are afforded the great privilege of entering heaven to live and reign with God know the end of war. Because there is no war in God's Holy heaven and never has been, theologian's misunderstandings not withstanding. No war, No Dragon/Serpents with star smacking tails, no Evil and no wicked angels. No darkness, no deceit and no ministers of Satan masquerading as angels of light. All that is reserved in this habitation we dwell in now, unto the judgment.

If as Scripture says, nothing can enter heaven that defileth, neither works abomination, or that maketh a lie, how did the big Red Dragon/Serpent wind up there, when he was a liar and murderer from the beginning? Something to think about.

"nosce te ipsum"

Peace,Tony Warren"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Tony, can you explain your belief on where Satan comes from and when/where God created him?

Logged

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

>>>Tony, can you explain your belief on where Satan comes from and when/where God created him? <<<

Satan is a created spirit, but I don't know where or when. All we know is that he was preordained and came upon the scene to deal with mankind in the garden of Eden and has been active as the adversary with him ever since.

"nosce te ipsum"

Peace,Tony Warren"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. -Psalms 32:5"

Russell,Really, no need for the frustration ... when the general consensus of *most christians* is what some believers ascribe to as their truth, I daresay, it is a most calamitous affliction of the spiritual condition

True, no need for it, but that doesn't stop me from having it

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It is not in the criticism that I oft times find the offense, it is in the obdurate, implacable tone. Not even an intelligently self formulated argument, simply a regurgitation of *most christians* say *so and so* therefore, it is truth.

Again and again and again. Either that or "this author says" or "the minister of this church wrote." Again, as you say, no need for frustration, but still very frustrating that so many Christians constantly defer to man's words over God's word.

I f there is war everywhere else, what makes you think there cannot be war in heaven?

Yes, there is war everywhere ON EARTH, but NOT IN THIRD HEAVENwhere God is. Never was! In Revelation 12, the heaven as God defined it is the congregation where the woman, Israel dwells. This is where ManChild, Jesus Christ, was born..on earth. Not in heaven! Tony Warren has already explained this before. Try to read it again and compare with Scripture yourself.

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Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)