23 February 2016

Left:
Language continuum: when two or more different languages or dialects merge into each other without a definable boundary.

Right:
Within the last 100 years, the increasing dominance of nation-states and their standard languages has been steadily eliminating the non-standard dialects of which these language continua were formed, making the boundaries ever more abrupt and well-defined.

Regional commissioner Van de Weide ascertained, that Frisian students were interested in the old-Germanic culture: "The Frisian core, which indeed promotes the ideas of Prof. Wirth is also very much pro-Hitler and pro-German; in general they are hostile towards the NSB*, because they see it as too specifically Dutch, too metropolitan and not folkish; they are thus more attracted to groups like Dinaso**."

Below a selection of earlier posts about Friesland, Frisians and the Frisian language, now and in history.

2015

Oct.15: Joachim Hoppers (1523-1576) was a Frisian lawyer and professor who
worked for the Spanish king (Philip II). He appears to have written
about Frisia's ancient history, but I have not found that text yet.
According to the "Chronique", he wrote that the Frisians stem from the
"High-Nordic peoples or Hyperboreans" and were the first to have received the secrets of writing.(...)
When Friso died, he left his travelling journal,
contracts, his covenant with various German cities,documents about the
division of Friesland, among other things. When his son Adel succeeded
him, he was said to have improved some of the written laws. Winsemius
(1586-1644) adds a note saying that this is questionable, as Tacitus
suggested that the Germanic tribes didn't read and write.

Oct. 27: Two fragments from article about this book (Pye, see right above):

... those Vikings, the Frisians before them and the Hanseatic merchants after them invented for themselves the conditions for modernity: international trade, money, credit, mathematics, law, the stock exchange, pensions and much else.
Mr Pye asks his readers to imagine a time before fixed national borders, when identity was not so much a matter of race, but of "where you were and where you last came from". The sea was a thoroughfare, quicker than rutted roads. It made it easy for "Scandinavians to be in York, Frisians in Ipswich, Saxons in London".
...
A central theme of this book is the re-invention of money and its role in the development of abstract, scientific and, eventually, secular thought. As a sea-trading people, the Frisians needed portable cash, not the gold and treasure of chiefs and kings, often hoarded and inert. They began minting silver coins, as a currency, an exchange.

Value became an idea, detached from the intrinsic nature of a thing. It could be calculated for different categories of goods, and more than that, it could be written down, arithmetically juggled, turned into ratios and equations. A new way of thinking was born, transactional and everyday, and yet with momentous philosophical implications.

Concerning the manuscript it is important, specially because Suffridus Petrus, de Scriptoribus Frisiae mentions in his introduction, that Friso left several writings, one of them a travel diary and biography; that he had written them in the Frisian language and with Greek characters, and that his successors wrote just like that, until the times that the Roman script became current in Germania.

He did not mention how or where he had learned about that (as was not his habit), but he can not have sucked that out of his thumb.

Something must have come to his knowledge of Frisian notes, from the times in which the Ovira Lindas wrote, and that travel diary (about the journey from India to Friesland) may be related to Ljudgert's diary.

Informations like this from Suffridus used to be considered as fabulations, but among those fabulations there may turn out to be more truth than was presumed. It is also acknowledged that Suffridus Petrus never lied, but that he would have copied from earlier sources.

"There are two kinds of people, that are most harmful for the practice of history: those who believe everything and those who believe nothing. The first present us anything they find, without sifting, ripe and green, plausible and improbable; but the second reject anything that at their own first sight seems to have no historical certainty. They cut all this out with a so-called skeptical trimming knife, that is often very blunt, or used very awkwardly by them."

To this M. de Jong adds the following comment:

The author [Binkes] does not hesitate to declare, that the unbelievers have harmed old Frisian history infinitely more than the naive believers.

On the same page dr. de Jong gives a similar quote from J.H. Halbertsma in "De Vrije Fries" #11 (1868):

"Frisian history to her great misfortune has mostly fallen in the hands of ultras, who either rigorously rejected the old sagas as worthless fiction, or accepted them as historical truth".

Page 74:

The only megalithic tomb ['hunebed'] of Friesland, that - as a memory of the Stone Age - would be much older than Adela, on the Van Swinderen estate in Rijs (Gaasterland), was destroyed immediately after its discovery in 1849, even before the archaeologist Dr. Jansen had heard about it.

And (paraphrased):

Dr. J.H. Halbertsma explained the phenomenon, that in Friesland so little antiquities are found:
The glory-addiction, that results in erecting monuments for oneself and others, was unknown to the sober and solid nature of the Frisians, as they chose to BE great, rather than APPEAR great.

Four tribes lived in the northern coastal area. The 'minor' Frisians lived west of the Flevo-lake in what is now North-Holland, and the 'major' Frisians lived in present Friesland. [...] More to the east, the Romans distinguished the minor and major Chauks: the first tribe lived in the provinces Groningen and Ostfriesland, the second between the mouths of Weser and Elbe. The names suggest at most a political division, as the four tribes shared the same economy, that was characterised by varied agriculture and trade on distant shores.

Many Latin texts show that the Romans had much difficulties navigating the North Sea.
The Frisians must have been excellent ship builders and navigators.

Nov. 21: Petrus Wierdsma (1729-1811), from unpublished notes, as quoted by Montanus Hettema in his experimental Frisian-Dutch dictionary of 1832.

Nowaday Farmers-Frisian, Old-Frisian and Anglo-Saxon are in my opinion the same language, the only difference being, some changes as caused by time, as is the destiny of all living languages.
If one would compare Old-Frisian to the current dialect of the Frisian farmers, one can clearly see the similarities. The nowaday dialect is specially supported by the work of Gijsbert Japiks, who on purpose, and to save the dialect, spelled according to it and not according to the old ways. One can read his own foreword about that.

According to Hettema, Newfrisian as spoken by 19th century farmers, was virtually the same language as the Oldfrisian of the known medieval lawtexts. He even dared say that this Oldfrisian was actually a much more pure variety of Frisian, than the Newfrisian of his time, because the latter had been bastardised in time by strange (Hollandic) influences. The consequence of this remarkable view was, that he wanted written Newfrisian to be based on historical Oldfrisian grammar and spelling.
The idea that languages were once more pure and had worn out in time was common in the 19th century, although of older humanist origine. Hettema shared this idea with important Dutch and foreign linguists like Jacob Grimm, Matthijs de Vries, Joost Halbertsma and Eelco Verwijs, to name just a few. (This view was abandoned later under the influence of Darwinism and other ways of thinking about evolution.)
[...]
In that time (certainly until 1875) Frisian had no certain spelling. Every writer used his own. One of them was Sytstra, who said: "To spell Frisian in strange letters is a disgrace", and he introduced an Oldfrisian spelling, the so-called 'Iduna-spelling'. The Frisians had to learn to become themselves again: Oldfrisians. [...] The introduction of the Iduna-spelling led to a readability problem, because most Frisian writers until then were used to spell phonetically, in 'Hollandic' letters. This resulted in a huge gap between spelling and pronounciation, because the latter could no longer be the criterium for spelling. Although Sytstra's spelling met with fierce criticism here and there, it was very succesful until 1862, when he and his comrade Tiede Roels Dijkstra both died.
In my opinion, the OLB-language originated from this extreme, archaizing stand. The lords purists must have been pleased, as the OLB-language is exactly what they were striving for. It's probably not a coincidence that in 1871 Hettema immediately accepted the book. Shortly before publication of the OLB, he was shown photo's of a few pages. Based on the script, he concluded that it could not be a really old text. Otherwise, he could only conclude that the language was 'the' Frisian (of all times), because the only difference he saw between Old- and Newfrisian was the way of spelling. He considered the OLB-spelling to be beautiful, fantastic, even better: "... the spelling... is, in my eyes, much more conform the old and most regular, and much better and orderly, than of those, who nowadays write the language; one would wish, that this spelling were reintroduced.

Oct. 27: From "The Frisian Society as frontrunner in museological understanding - 19th Century initiatives to musealization of folks-culture in Friesland" by Ad de Jong (2002)

The braiding of the hair in Hindeloopen, according to J.H. Halbertsma a tradition that was already described by Roman writer Tacitus, and that is characteristic for the free Frisians.
[...]
In two rooms [of the Palace of Justice in Leeuwarden] the Antiquarian Cabinet of Friesland was situated... [...]
In there the traditional garments from Hindeloopen were kept, that honorary member dr. Joost Hiddes Halbertsma (1789-1869), the famous Frisian linguist and literary man, had collected and donated to the Cabinet. [...]
Collecting traditional garments was still an unknown phenomenon in the rest of the Netherlands.
Halbertsma was intrigued by the culture of Hindeloopen. [...] His first notes date from 1820. [...]
The casques from Hindeloopen [...] were so capacious, that long braids could be rolled and placed under them, so there was no need to cut the hair. Halbertsma explained: "Because of those long braids the Frisian women were not just the women of a free people, but of the most distinguished women of the Germanic races; this in contrast to the unfree, who were forced by the old Germans to wear their hair short." With this Halbertsma made a direct connection between the Frisian popular culture and the description of habits of the old Germans by Roman writers. [...]
The Frisian Cabinet received many objects from folks-culture as a gift from Halbertsma, like garments and household goods, mostly from Hindeloopen.

July 17: The Puzzler, on 15 July 2011 - 12:10 AM, quoted and commented:

"... Their tentative existence in the 4th century is confirmed archaeologically by the discovery of a type of earthenware unique to 4th century Frisia, called terp Tritzum, showing that an unknown number of Frisii were resettled in Flanders and Kent...

The lands of the Frisii would be abandoned by c. 400 due to flooding caused by a marine transgression and laid empty for a century, when changing environmental conditions again made the region habitable. At that time settlers would repopulate the region and come to be known as 'Frisians'. Medieval and later accounts of 'Frisians' refer to these 'new Frisians' rather than to the ancient Frisii.
...
In the 3rd and 4th centuries the population of Frisia steadily decreased, and by the 5th century the population had dropped dramatically. The coastal lands would remain largely unpopulated for the next two centuries. When conditions improved Frisia would receive an influx of new settlers, mostly Saxons, and these would eventually be referred to as 'Frisians', though they were not necessarily descended from the ancient Frisii. It is these 'new Frisians' who are largely the ancestors of the medieval and modern Frisians." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisii

I think that's interesting - it's like the ancient FRISII disappeared from history and were replaced by another form of Frisian.

This is important indeed and it agrees with something discussed earlier; Albert Delahaye's theory that the western half of present 'the Netherlands' was mostly uninhabitable because of flooding between the Roman and the Frankish occupation. That is: in most of the first millennium AD.

Some toponyms of Westfriesland are strikingly similar to ones in Westflanders and Calais region (also think of Delahayes long list of "fries-" toponyms in that region). As Joël Vandemaele argued, some of what is described in the OLB (and its language) has more continuity in Westflanders (Belgium) than anywhere in the Netherlands (e.g. supposed Frya worship and the spelling of Frya itself ~ ~ ~ more research needed as Vandemaele did not provide sources for this).

Therefore, it's likely that the most significant e-migration from "ancient Frisii" (or Fryans) from what is now North-Holland, was directly southwards, while most of the re-migration in the late-first and early-second millennium also took place from here (Westflanders, NW-France).

Whether they re-migrated to Westfriesland/ North Holland because the land became more habitable again, or because they fled from the Christenings (and just reclaimed the land), I don't know. Probably it was a combination of this.

The 'Frisians' in what is now Friesland will be a more Danish/ German mix.

There is indeed quite a cultural difference between the Dutch province of Friesland (the nowaday 'real' Frisians), and the region Westfriesland in the province of North-Holland (*).

In the OLB and in the so-called fantastic Frisian historiography, Westfriesland is much more important than in the 'official' history. Medemblik would even have been the capital of 'old-Frisia'.

There's been many ancient archaeological finds in North-Holland, dating back thousands of years, but there is indeed no continuity. Not much happened during the first millennium AD.

That's the problem, and probably the main cause of why OLB is misunderstood and not taken seriously by mainstream science in NL.

(*) I'll mention two significant differences:

1) While "Friesland" has a long tradition of (orthodox) Bible-worship, in Westfriesland the church was never very powerful and churches started closing already in the late sixties.

2) While "Friesland" always had a strong 'nobility-culture' (dutch: "adel"); inheritance of accumulating wealth and power, Westfriesland did not have this (in the last few hundred years).

While OLB at first sight might be Frisian nationalistic, it's almost the complete opposite as it will be an uncomfortable read for both Frisian Bible-worshippers and Frisian nobility.

"The Firaesi (Latinization) or Phiraisoi (original Greek) are a people listed in Ptolemy’s Geography (2.10). ...
The Firaesi are not mentioned elsewhere in history"

Any kid with some knowledge of the Frisian history would see the obvious connection (Frisii = Firaesi / southern Sweden).

(added 2016 feb. 19:)

The Ancient Roman historian Claudius Ptolemy described, in his work Geographia,
the island of Scandia. This island, located to the northeast of the
Cimbrian penninsula (present day Denmark), is now known to be not an
island at all, but rather the southern area of the Scandinavian
peninsula: specifically, Sweden. The western area of Scandia was
inhabited by the Chaedini; the eastern region by the Favonae and
Firaesi; the northern region by the Finni; the south by the Gutae, and
Dauciones; and the central area by the Levoni and Hill-Levoni. (source)

April 9: One of the most important reasons why OLB is rejected by most Dutch scholars seems to be that the language is relatively easy to understand.

Since the oldest known texts in Dutch, Frisian, Saxon etc. are more difficult to understand, people assume, that anything older should be even more difficult than, or more different from our 'modern' language.

What they don't realize is that while the written history (written language) had been thoroughly destroyed in a few hunderd years of cultural genocide, the spoken language may have stayed almost the same for people who did not migrate and mix too much.

In the late Middle Ages, the only people who could read and write, had learnt this in Latin (not counting the few exceptions like Liko and Hidde, who risked their lives writing in the old language).

At some point they tried to write down the commonly spoken language (that was much older than Latin), but they had no more examples, they had to construct or actually reconstruct the spelling.

So instead of the evolution of language being linear or exponential (from very primitive to very advanced), it was actually more cyclic; at some point very advanced, and then as a result of wars, migrations and mixing of cultures, it became confused and partly forgotten, while later, in times of relative peace, it was reconstructed again.

Because of the similarities in the North-European languages, we can conclude that they must have had the same (or at least a shared) origin, much older than any known written source.

Nowhere ever have I seen one convincing example of "modern Dutch" in OLB that would prove that it cannot be as old as it says it is.

March 20: translated from website by Dr.W.Bruijnesteijn van Coppenraet, with some notes by me between [...]:

According to the usual theory, Frisia in the time of the Roman occupation was roughly the present Netherlands north of the old Rhinestream (the limes). Climatologically it was a regression period and a huge sweet water lake, Flevo or Almere [in OLB: "Flymar"], was in the centre. After the Romans left (ca.250 AD), and without doubt related to the increasing transgression, that wasted much of their lands, the Frisians moved their territory more to the in-lands: southwards with Zeeland and the river area [and Flandres?], east to the Weser (East-Friesland) and later (8th century) even up to Sleeswijk. (...) Neighbours were south the Franks and east the Saxons. The Frisians also founded a colony in Brittania, Northumberland, from where in the 7th and 8th century missionaries came to their old lands [mostly to Flandres?]. The Franks always hated the Frisians. Already ca. 574 the Frankish king Chilperik I was praised for his terror against the Frisians:

You are the terror of the far Frisians and Suevans,who are not only unprepared for war,but even ask for your protection.
(...)

The assumption that Utrecht already existed in the period 600-640 and was temporary in Frankish hands is based on quicksand. In 697 Frisia started to finally really fall apart and Frisia citerior, the southern part up to the Rhine, was taken by the Frankish Pepin II. Ca. 719 his successor Karel Martel crossed the old limes en marched up to the Almere. In 736 the same Karel Martel attacked the Frisians in the back with a fleet and by winning the "Borne battle" he occupied the area up to the Eems river. The remaining eastern area, already disintegrated and taken over by the Saxons, finally was taken by the Franks, together with all of the Saxon lands, between 770 and 800 by Charles 'the great'. The terms Frisia and Frisii remained in use, but now as a Christian people, submitted under Frankish rule. After a period of invasions by the Normans [attempts to free the Frisians?], the whole area of the Frisians, from Walcheren to Eems, was part of the "Imperium Danicum", the empire of the Vikings, during the second half of the 9th century, but this was under supervision of the Frankish emperor.
(...)
The highly indoctrinating traditional science, that has evolved from the primitive historiography of the late Middle Ages, often gives an unsatisfying view on the geography of our lands in the first millennium. At the other side, the vision of Albert Delahaye, who radically moved the geography to North France, is also far from satisfying. A "semi-traditional" view, that accepts that Delahaye went too far with his revision of the historical geography, but that also accepts that the Nether-lands in that area was subject to heavy transgressions and therefore mostly flooded, at least climatologically not habitable, is presented in publications by Kreijns and Pirson, Van Veen and Bruijnesteijn v.C.

Holland, slowly awakening under the name of Western Frisia, grew in
four centuries from a little countship in the delta of the great rivers,
lying along the borders of the sea, into a considerable region. In the
11th century one could not see any difference between a count and other
local rulers, and the territory of the count was not entirely
cultivated. The location of Holland in the centre of communication
lines, was strategically favourable with a view to its own commerce and
the control of alien trade.
...
In the 11th century Utrecht was very powerful. Owing to the location of
the city on the crossroads of the rivers the Vecht and the Old Rhine,
trading relations with England, the Rhineland and the Baltic could be
profitable. In politicis, the bishops could depend on the support given
by the German King. When the little Westfrisian countship strived for
independence - for instance by imposing an illegal toll on passing
mercantile ships to and from Utrecht - it seemed only a matter of time
before the elephant had crushed the gnat. But the attackers, together
with episcopal allies from Münster and Luik, lost the battle at
Vlaardingen in 1018 (because of waterbarriers and panic), and a
succeeding campaign in 1046. When in 1049 and 1061 two Westfrisian
counts died - the first was trapped in an ambush, and the second fell in
action - the end of the countship was in sight. Joined by Flemmish
forces, count Dirk V had to reconquer it entirely. But he was
successful. In 1101, the name 'counts of Holland' was used for the first
time. During the preceding years, the subregion 'Western Frisia' was
disengaged from the other part of the county. It would take tremendous
efforts to get it back.
...
From antiquity on, Holland and Western-Frisia had belonged to Frisia. At
the end of the 11th century, both regions apparently had grown apart,
probably because around 1064 the bishop of Utrecht had driven the counts
off the theatres of war in Holland. In 1132-1133 the warlike count Dirk
VI decided to solve in a military way the problem of avoiding the
autonomy of Western-Frisia. This was the start of a long series of
bloodshed and pillage, raids and expeditions. At least twenty of these
clashes emerge from the sources. They contain several constant factors.
The farmers in Western-Frisia adopted a military strategy: the kind of
warfare we survey with the word 'guerrilla'. They had an extra reason
for fighting, because fields and pastures were drowned by waterfloods
between 11-13th centuries. The Southern Sea, which drove the Western
Frisians away from the Eastern, came into being in this time.

For geophysical reasons most battles were fought in the surroundings of
Alkmaar. For almost 150 years Holland played into the hands of their
enemies, by only attacking them when the cattle were in stables, the
harvests cropped and the granary full. The knights did not dare to
invade Western-Frisia, because their horses were hindered by the many
ditches, brooks, lakes and wet soil. On account of these environmental
factors, the Dutch were trapped in many a Westfrisian ambush.

It was not until 1282 that Floris V defeated the Westfrisians, by means
of a fourfold military-strategical concept. He had castles built along
the border and then launched a surprise attack over the Southern Sea.
His offensive started while the cattle were in the pastures and the
crops in the fields, so that most of the Frisians were needed in their
farms. After winning the battle he consolidated his victory by building
compulsionary castles, according to a containment plan that was
developed with geometrical precision. Finally he helped his enemies in
their struggle against the sea, by means of well constructed and
maintained dikes as in Utrecht and Brabant. He let them have as many of
their ancient rights and customs as possible.
...
The count of Holland received an official confirmation of his rights on
(Eastern-) Frisia in 1165. Owing to the energetic support of both the
countal and episcopal claims, Barbarossa saw no alternative and devided
the region by a Salomon’s judgement. This condominium worked, as it
seems, rather well between 1165-1197 and 1204-1212. Market- and
tollrights and the endowment of goods and appointments were equally
divided. By frana and asega the bishop exercised his power; the count
worked by way of a zendgraaf, vice-comes or sherrif. Much less than in
Holland and rather less than in Sealand, the local nobility in Frisia,
the so-called hoofdelingen, became feudalized.

Nonetheless, they were willing to submit themselves to certain Dutch
claims. Ever since the reign of Floris V, Utrecht no longer demanded its
old rights persistently. In the year 1233 the Frisians in Franeker
lifted the count on a shield on condition that the local nobility would
not lose their allodia or receive their fiefs from him. Although they
acknowledged the Dutch sherrifs, they demanded that the office be held
only by people born in Frisia. The background of these conditions was
their fear of being oppressed by Holland, as clearly happened - in their
opinion - in Western Frisia, when Floris V erected compulsionary
castles.

Oct. 16: from "The Oera-Linda-Book in Germany and here" by Dr. M. de Jong (1939):

When we don't limit our view to the controversies that kept us busy here in Holland, we must admit, that the OLB begot a significance because of the war in Germany, that no one ever could have dreamt of. In the spiritual revolution, that occurred there in the last decennia and is still unfolding, it played an important role. The OLB has been the highlight of passionate discussions about national-socialist principles and philosophy. A model for living and history, women’s place in society, democracy and authority, pacifism, the Slavic East front, racial theory and the Nordic race, even the Jewish question, were discussed. It’s a remarkable fact, that the OLB seems to appeal to profound feelings, that the German people have developped in their fight against alien influences and in favour of their own Germanic culture. Science had already succesfully resisted against the Christian-Latin historiographic image of old-Germanic civilisation’s inferiority and of the blessings brought to the supposed barbarians by the Romans and the Roman Catholic church. The aureole of great-christener Charles “the Great” faded away. People hoped to find traces of their own old civilisation, their own spiritual heritage, even an original Nordic monotheism.

This now, many believed to find, in the footsteps of Herman Wirth, together with lots of other ancestrial heritage, in the OLB, specifically in the so-called Wralda-mysticism.

16 February 2016

... in pre-Christian Europe, and you understand that official contemporary history is dictated by the victors of the latest wars, the Oera Linda Book will be a treat.

Burning of Arian books at Nicaea (fragment ca. 825 CE)

The medieval Christian establishment is responsible for our oldest accepted sources by preserving or copying them. They were also known for destroying anything that they considered to be heretical. Even in our times, some opinions, beliefs, memories and facts are not tolerated. In Germany for example, historians and scientists (as well as their defending lawyers) have been jailed for questioning the establishment's version of what happened in the labour camps of the Third Reich. Their books have been burnt and banned.

Thanks to the internet and as long as it is relatively accessible, ever more people are educating themselves and coming to their own conclusions. What we have learnt at school, from documentaries or even from specialised mainstream literature often turns out to have an other possible perspective, that sometimes makes more sense. This "aha!"-experience is addictive. The more pieces of the puzzle fall into their right position, the more a real picture becomes clear, resulting in a more healthy world view, identity and belief system.

It is easy to imagine that the oldest texts that we have are only a fraction of what once existed. For not only have books and manuscripts been destroyed on purpose or by accident, much will have simply fallen apart, used to make fire, or be hiding in private or secret collections. When information is hidden to the common public, it is called "occult". When an occult source suddenly shows up in the public domain, it will be a threat to the cultural elite, so they will try to hide it again.

In the case of the Oera Linda Book, they were too late, since it was translated, published and widely discussed before they knew it. So what else could be done than have it ridiculed and intimidate scholars who dared to be interested in it? This happened in the 1870s in the Netherlands and was repeated in Germany in the 1930s, when it was once more declared fake and publication about the topic became forbidden. But Heinrich Himmler did take it seriously and had the OLB secretly investigated between 1936 and 1942.

After the war, in Germany the OLB was nicknamed "Himmler's Bible", which further discouraged academics to publicly doubt the dominating forgery doctrine. The most recent scholarly works were published in 2004 and 2006, a dissertation and new translation, that do not question or consider authenticity, but merely confirm the hoax theory, suggesting a religiously motivated conspiracy of vicar-poet Haverschmidt, linguist Verwijs and Over de Linden, who had owned the manuscript. My video demonstrates the weak spots in the official story.

This weblog contains language studies, forum discussions, translations, links and thought experiments. My current main priority is to make a new English translation that will be published together with a new transliteration and a facsimile of the manuscript. This way it will be easier than ever before to compare the translation with the original text and script. An index of names and key words will be added, as well as summaries, time lines and more. With this I hope to inspire other researchers, for the Oera Linda Book is way too great for the few of us alone.

[...] In Germany, a daily increasing movement of people can be observed, that turns away from Christianity and wants to return to the original Germanic and Aryan gods. This movement had been moderate, since many felt uncomfortable worshiping Wodan again. But now, Wirth has come with his "Hailbringer" and it is under this banner, that the anti-Christian Germans can somewhat decently unite if they want. The matter has become highly relevant, since the organisation of "German Christians" has emerged, its main aims still hardly being known. As far as this new initiative persues reformation of the Protestant church after National Socialist principles, it is of some interest. But it becomes sensational, when it aims at "purging" Christianity of all Semitic smut, for example by abolition of the Old Testament. [...]

13 February 2016

Looking back, I see how my attraction to hidden history started, when, as a teenager, I got into tracing my Westfrisian family roots and collecting old pictures. The thrill of discovery, the "aha!"-experience, learning things about my older ancestors, that could have been passed on through the generations and thus, helped me understand myself and my direct family.

Most striking is it, to learn how oral tradition does not always match up with recorded information. Even families have their versions of censorship and propaganda, often about little details, but sometimes concerning something more significant. It may have been silenced or changed on purpose, or subconsciously. The mind plays tricks on us and this can be helpful. Some things are better forgotten or made nicer, so we can move on.

But when a lie or suppressed rage keeps causing trouble, like a deep stuck splinter, it is better to face it and deal with it after all. What may have been a near fatal trauma several generations back, can now be something that we would frown about. But as long as it is not known and understood, it can keep nagging, cause nightmares, lead to distractive habits, or worse.

This principle is not only applicable to the individual and its family, but also to a whole tribe, a folk, a nation.

~

For a few years, I had been interested in Nordic mythology, when in 2005 I first heard about the Oera Linda-book (OLB). Someone had written a dissertation about it, having something to do with the Frisians and their supposed primordial mother Frya.

I bought "De Gemaskerde God" (the masked god) by Goffe Jensma, but when I read the summary, suggesting this OLB to be a 19th century joke, I put it on the shelf, where it would remain untouched for another four years. I wanted to read this OLB myself first anyway, before reading someone's opinion about it.
The subject had lost my attention, until in 2009 in a small bookshop in Amsterdam, I found Sura de Heer's translation that included the original text in a specially designed font.

Not with that name, but IMO "missionary priests of Sidon" (Sion?) could come close.

flashman7870, on 27 August 2015 - 09:53 PM, said:

Interesting
idea, but that would place the origin of Judaism in Phoenecia, which
considering the lack of mythological similarities between Phoenician and
Jewish religion beyond those names found across the Semitic world, that
seems unlikely.

kmt_sesh, on 12 September 2015 - 05:35 AM, said:

As
for the Phoenicians, [...] They were decidedly Semitic, of Canaanite
stock. Their own abjad (a consonantal alphabet) demonstrates this.

Some relevant OLB quotes conerning the Phoenicians.

1. Fonísjar priests = Gola = Sídon priests

(* I give the page number of Sandbach, but the translations here are (adapted) by me)

[060/23] (Sandbach p.85)THA GOLA. ALSA HÉTON. THA SÀNDALINGA.PRESTERA SÍDON.IS
the Gola, as the missionary priests of Sídon were called

2. About the relations between the Fryas and the Gola/ 'Fonísjar' (or:
how the Fryas felt about them) - Note these are only a few examples of
many more

[061/11] (Sandbach p.87)WAS THÉR HWA FON VS FOLK THÉR.ET ALSA ÀRG VRBRUD HÉDE THAT SIN LIF IN FRÉSE KÉM
THAN LÉNADON THA GOLA HIM HUL ÀND SKUL ÀND FORADON HIM NÉI PHONISJA. THÀT IS PALM.LAND
If any of our folk had messed up so badly that his life came in fear,
the Gola lent him refuge and took him to Phonisja, that is Palmland.

[201/24] (Sandbach p.243)ÀFTER NÉI NAM.ER TWÁ É.LANDA TO BERCH FÁR SINUM SKÉPUM.
ÀND HWÁNATH HI LÉTER ÛTGVNG VMB ALLE FONÍSJAR SKÉPA ÀND STÉDA TO BIRÁWANE THÉR.I BIGÁNA KV
After that, he [Áskar] took two islands to park his ships,
from where he later went out to plunder all the Fonísjar ships and cities that he could reach.

I
know very little about the Oera Linda Book, but is it not primarily
about the adventures of ancient Frisians? [...] I'm confused because,
despite the tales told in the OLB, the Frisians were and are a Germanic
people. They did not exist in the Early Bronze Age (c. 2200 BCE), unless
you all are referring to very ancient northern Europeans whose
identity, language, and culture are largely lost to us now. But
technically speaking, culturally and linguistically, the Frisians could
not be the same people.

Better would be to use the term proto-Frisians, as they are suggested to
have been a people from which the Frisians descend (and the Germans,
the Dutch, etc. - NW-Europeans). Obviously, the NW-Europeans will not
exclusively descend from these 'Fryas', as there have been other
influences.

Although there are no (other) written sources for this, the ancestors of
the NW-Europeans will have existed in the Early bronze age. Technically
speaking (culturally and linguistically), the NW-Europeans could have
descended from the people described in the OLB. There is nothing in the
OLB (or anywhere else, as far as we have seen in this thread) that makes
this hypothesis impossible.

Quote

You
use the term "Fryas." Is this not a derivation of the ancient Norse
goddess, or is it in reference to something or someone else?

This term is derived from the OLB itself. If it is authentic, it seems
like the Nordic-Germanic traditions that have Freya as a goddess are of
later date. OLB describes/ suggests several other cults that were
started by priesthoods, based on deified mortals (a.o. Minerva, Wodin,
Neptune, Vesta).

Frya would have been the last 'Folk mother' (sort of chosen queen) from
before a deluge, but the 'records' about this are more of a mythological
nature. OLB also has a creation myth in which "Frya" is one of three
primal mothers, namely the one of which the white race would have descended.

The name means "Free one" or "to set free", so it could also be that the people who
strongly identified with the concept of freedom, created this myth of their primal mother for
themselves.

Posted 24 September 2015 - 07:19 PM

Simply because it is so beautiful, and in the collection of the
Westfrisian Archive (Hoorn), where I spent too many hours of my
adolescence: Map of the world (1657) by Frederik de Wit.

Posted 28 September 2015 - 12:32 PM

I subtitled an old Dutch short film with many JOL symbols (6 spoke wheel). In the video it is called "six-star". => Separate post here.

Joachim Hoppers (1523-1576) was a Frisian lawyer and professor who
worked for the Spanish king (Philip II). He appears to have written
about Frisia's ancient history, but I have not found that text yet.
According to the "Chronique", he wrote that the Frisians stem from the
"High-Nordic peoples or Hyperboreans" and were the first to have received the secrets of writing.

In other words: When Friso died, he left his travelling journal,
contracts, his covenant with various German cities,documents about the
division of Friesland, among other things. When his son Adel succeeded
him, he was said to have improved some of the written laws. Winsemius
(1586-1644) adds a note saying that this is questionable, as Tacitus
suggested that the Germanic tribes didn't read and write.

This book was published in 1622, in the early years of the most terrible Thirty Years' War
(1618-1648), in which also the Dutch Republic took part. It is obvious
that the book partly was of political (propagandistic) importance,
specially since it was licensed by, and dedicated to the government.
Still, much can be learnt from it.

Posted 06 October 2015 - 06:51 AM

Van Gorp, on 05 October 2015 - 08:12 PM, said:

I think the right side to use is the one most people prefer to use when reaching out in the dark: the test-er.

Great associations VG, and plezant that you are back.
I can add this one: vin-geren = vin(d) - (be)geren

The Puzzler, on 06 October 2015 - 05:31 AM, said:

... rather than Latin, which test, testi and all the textile words come from.

These don't have to come from Latin.
Latin is a relatively new (writing) language, only overrepresented in our (relatively) old texts.

Page one of my new English Oera Linda
translation (experimental phase). I have decided not to stick to the
original wording, but make it a more easy read, with possibility of
comparing to transliteration and original manuscript. => see separate posts here and on http://aldfryas.blogspot.de/

My comment would be, the language seems a bit strange - why have
Fleeland? The OLB clearly says Flyland, if the translation is English,
it sounds strange.

We still have "Vlieland" which is pronounced "Vleeland". Verb FLY in OLB also means to flee, not to fly. See FLY.BURGH.

Quote

Werser
sounds a bit odd too, I've never heard it called that. It seems a made
up name that doesn't correspond with a Frisian name.

Werser is the current eastfrisian (NW Germany) name and closer to original than Weser.

My dictionary said "burg" is stronghold, which seemed better than Burgh
and burrough to me. But I will reconsider that and the other things you
wrote.

Posted 22 October 2015 - 08:49 PM

I reckoned that one of the main reasons why the OLB is not more
popular is, that the existing translations are not easy or pleasant
reads. Sandbach is a translation of Ottema's translation, it has long
oldfashioned sentences and many strange words. Interesting for experts,
but not for the more general public. The screenshots I posted earlier
still had many original names and words in italic, but in the full
translation of the first 7 pages, I had aimed at changing most of them
into easier words. It remains a dilemma sometimes, use the original
spelling, or an adaptation or even translation (of names or titles
mostly). I would for example not translate Wralda or Frya, just explain
in a footnote or introduction what the meaning is.

I think I will change Werser into Weser because there is hardly any
doubt that it is the same river. But Stavia or Medeasblik for example
might not be at the same location as our current Stavoren and Medemblik.
So I would leave them, but I turn Stavja into Stavia and Médéasblik into
Medeasblik. All those accents can be discouraging and the j in English
is uncommon at that place.

FLYBURGH, actually FLÍBURG/ -BURCH (and FLÍLAND):
p.63, translated as "the paths leading to our places of refuge"
p.87, untranslated: "On the other side of the Scheldt, at Flyburgt, Sijrhed presided"
p.93, idem: "went off with all his people to Flyburgt"
p.249, (USA FLÍ JEFTHA WÉRA) translated as "to the east of Liudwerd, lies our place of refuge"

The dutch word is "vlieden".

I will change "burg" into "burgh" again.

"Magus" was in my English dictionary and seemed to fit quite well. ("Magy" was not, but I could indeed leave it untranslated.)

For "FÁM" I doubted between "maiden" and "lady", but maiden i.m.o.
associates with "maid" and virginity. We say "burchtvrouwe" which is
more like Lady. I will reconsider.

BURGUM / BURGA are plural. Singular is only once with G only (BURGFÁMNA on p.151), usually CH or GH.
Yes indeed, sometimes authors are not consequent in spelling. I don't
think BURCH and BURGH have different meaning, they are just varieties of
the same word (many other examples of this phenomenon in OLB).

Thanks again for the feedback and compliment.

Posted 23 October 2015 - 09:58 AM

Thank you for the feedback, PT.

Yes, I also like the idea of Fleeland being a land of refuge for the 'Free-minded'.

Quote

Flyland in my view gives an impresion of a land infested with flies

I had not thought of that. It is indeed a good reason not to use that spelling.

"umbrought" - compare dutch "omgebracht", past perfect of "ombrengen",
this is a eufemism for "to kill". Later in the text, page 79-85 confirms
that she (last folkmother FRANA) was indeed killed.

"wrdon" - dutch "worden, german "werden" : to become (see context: they fell apart because they had become wet)
The comments of you both have been very helpful. I have changed
into "burgh" and "maiden", "Weser" and made some more improvements. I
hope all this will inspire some new discussion and insights.

Who wants to compare my draft translation so far with the one by Sandbach (1876) can look here

The Puzzler, on 22 October 2015 - 04:11 PM, said:

What's wrong with 'Magy'? I don't see a need to change it to Magus. It's not a Frisian word nor an English word.

We have gotten used to Fám, Magy, Flyland etc., but someone reading it
for the first time may get discouraged when it has many unfamiliar
words. But I agree, it's a dilemma. Until recently I tried to always
stay as close to the original words as possible. That I will present the
new translation right next to my transliteration and the fascimile will
make it very easy for the more curious readers to find the original
word and spelling. Also I will add foot or endnotes.

Posted 29 October 2015 - 09:49 AM

"Tread softly" is a good translation.
I have come to appreciate Sandbach more than I did. Some of his sentences cannot be improved or even equalled.
But when I can think of a solution that is different and just as good, I
tend to use that and not his, to provide the reader who knows his
already a fresh look.

Posted 01 November 2015 - 02:10 PM

Passing Time, on 01 November 2015 - 01:30 PM, said:

can
you be sure in this one though that Enoch , means enough , and that
they are not refering to the Enoch ( cheiftains name ) from page 1 .
saying that his burgh alone did not help the others ??

do i take it that from your jumping about with pages , that you consider the MS to be in the wrong order ?

No not the wrong order. In my final version I will probably keep the original, but I will note where the text continues chronologically. For many readers that may be easier and a more pleasant reading experience.

I think that for a new reader, it might be better to first read all
about the occurrences of 6th C. BCE, before diving in the mythology, the
more ancient histories and laws. That may just be to much of a
mind-stretcher, and confusing.

Quote

who do you think numbered the pages ?

Hidde, the last known copyist.

Quote

also note that you think Wr Alda means world .

Yes, but not only. Literally it means the most ancient one. Sometimes it just makes more sense to translate it as World.

Posted 02 November 2015 - 11:59 AM

A remarkable detail.

Adela advised:"I should farther recommend that you should visit all the citadels, and
write down all the laws of Frya's Tex, as well as all the histories, and all that is written on the walls, in order that it may not be destroyed with the citadels."

Then this is said:"Adela's advice was followed.
These are the Grevetmen under whose direction this book is composed:—
Apol, Adela's husband; [...] The towns Liudgarda, [...] are under his care."

Apollania writes about her burgh in Ljudgarda:"On the south wall the Tex is inscribed. On the right side of this are the formulae [FORM.LÉRE], and on the other side the laws"

But these were not copied into the original Book of Adela Followers, as Apollania writes:"The old legend [FORM.LÉRE] which is written
on the outside wall of the city tower is not written in "The Book of
Adela's Followers." Why this has been neglected I do not know; but this book is my own, so I will put it in out of regard to my relations."

It looks like Apol, Adela's husband and responsible for having the texts
of the burgh Ljudgara copied, did not think much of the FORM.LÉRA
(primal teachings about Wralda), or he left it out for some other
reason...
I know we can only speculate about why it was left out, but it is at least noteworthy.

Posted 12 November 2015 - 02:08 PM

The Puzzler, on 10 November 2015 - 03:10 PM, said:

BANNALINGA seems to equate to "long banished" with banna being banished and linga=lenga=lang = long

What
stays remarkable if we go along with OLB is the fact that a Jesus as a
Saint Isa in Kashmir is since some years in debate, only mostly not
ascribed as being born there.

It is possible that JES-US was one of the various names of Buddha and
that Isa (or whatever his name was) from Nazareth studied in Kashmir and
took or got "Jesus" as name, after one of Buddha's names. There are
also indications that he lived there after the crucifiction (that did
not kill him as he was taken off the cross in time and cured from his
wounds). There are good documentaries that argue for this and it is
clear that this would take away one of the main foundations of the
Christian doctrine.

Posted 22 November 2015 - 05:13 PM

Ca. 3000 years old intact skeleton found in Westfriesland (near
Westwoud) - West-Flíland in the OLB - of a woman (20-25 y.o., 1.60 m
tall) in former gravemound of which only the surrounding ditch was still
visible, 30-40 cm. under surface. The chalk-rich soil had preserved the
remains so well.

Sandbach:That seems very good judgment, said the priests; but if you mean that the plague is caused by our stupidity, then Nyhellenia will perhaps be so good as to bestow upon us a little of that new light of which she is so proud.

My provisory translation:"That is quite a statement," the priests said, "but if you imply that the plague is a result of our ignorance, then would Nyhellenia be so good as to live up to her proud name and enlighten us?"
(wordplay will be explained in a footnote)

It is implied here that HEL can be interpreted as light.

Posted 23 December 2015 - 12:01 PM

flashman7870, on 22 December 2015 - 07:21 PM, said:

I can't recall an instance of Wr-Alda being called "God"

"GOD" in OLB is usually an adjective, meaning good or perfect.
But sometimes it is also used as a noun, to mean "god". (Also: AFGODA: idols, 'off-gods'.)

p.35
NÉAN SÉIDE MIN.ERVA.
MEN IK NE KÀN NÉNE GODA THÉR ÀRG.DVANDE SEND.
[... ] IK KÀN ÉN GODE. THÀT IS WRALDAS GÁST.
MEN THRVCH THAM ER GOD IS. DVATH.ER ÁK NEN KWÁD."No," Minerva said, "since I do not know any gods that do evil, (...) I only know one 'god', that is the world spirit (or: Wralda's spirit), but because 'god' means good, he also does no evil."

I left some of the fragments untranslated, so you can have some fun with them yourselves.

[In the last week of December there was suddenly much activity on the forum. I only joined in again later. A new poster that I had corresponded with already, "FromFinland" is a specialist of the "Bock Saga" and comparing various traditions. With his permission, I will copy many of his posts here.]

FromFinland posted 28 December 2015 - 02:56 AM

zxc, on 24 December 2015 - 01:58 PM, said:

Are Finns Finnish

That is a good question. While study of the Over de Linden manuscript
has not happened at all from the Finnish point of view, it could
possibly be very valuable if it indeed spoke about Finnish peoples.
There exists few known old sources speaking of Finns, to which we must
also include Estonians and pre-Rurikid
Russians for we are more or less the same people racially, culturally
and linguistically. To an outsider, the matter of Finns in old records
can be somewhat confusing:

in Finnish language 'Finland' is Suomi and 'Finnish' is suomalainen

Norse
sources call Finns either by nation (Finland) or by geographical tribal
distinction of Kvens, Häme people, Carelians, Ålanders, Bjarmians and
so on

some Norse sources use term Finn
to refer instead to Lapps of the Lapland, who in turn are a people
culturally and racially distinct from Finns and Scandinavians

I personally study the Over de Linden
manuscript to see if it contains references to forefathers of my kin,
and am thus very happy for Jan Ott's work on a new translation.
I do not know with certainty if the manuscript is authentic (as opposed
to forgery) or if it is accurate (as opposed to unaccurate), though
same problem exists regarding to many other old sources of information.

FromFinland posted 28 December 2015 - 04:38 PM

Tony S., on 28 December 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:

Adel
was the name of four Frisian kings, and we can assume it was a popular
name among the Frisians, perhaps recalling a legendary sea king of old.

Recurring themes in royal naming are common in Europe, as previously mentioned by The Puzzler. Anglo-Saxons had Aethel, Frisians apparently Adel, late Swedish kings often had Erik or Eirik as given name. Recurring naming patterns in Finnish royal or leadership context are: I) nature and winter related names, some of which are Finnish surnames still today (Halla, Pakkanen); II) Tor-related names as in king Thorri/Iki-Tiera, princess Thora, dynasty of thurses/turisas/Iku-Turso; III) age related names as in Fornjot dynasty (forn = 'ancient') of Iku-Turso and Iki-Tiera (iki = 'of age', 'ancient') and in pagan songs:

In early times almost all the Finns lived together in their native land, which was called Aldland, and is now submerged.

Variation of this theme was included in a 1996 book written by Finnish
tour guide and former actor Ior Bock (1942-2010), according to whom he
was taught orally an old family saga between 1949-1969 by his adoptive
family of Rachel Boxstrom (1888-1976) and Rhea Boxstrom (1899-1984).
Namely, ice age was known in this bi-lingual family tradition as allt land is,
meaning 'all land ice'. It ended in a catastrophical way 8016 BC when
the warm water from Atlantic melted the huge ice blocks, resulting in an
ice slide destroying most of the Nordic lands in process, save for few
forefathers of the Nordic white race who survived and later on spread
outwards from the island of Gotland. Unfortunately, this family saga has
received very little academic interest and as of 2015 there doesn't
exist any deep studies of it.

Tony S., on 28 December 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:

Eastward our boundary went to the extremity of the East Sea

What is the East Sea on this context? Baltic Sea is called 'East Sea' in some European languages.

Tony S., on 28 December 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:

Opposite to us we had Britain, formerly Westland, with her tin mines. Britain
was the land of the exiles, who with the help of their Burgtmaagd had
gone away to save their lives; but in order that they might not come
back they were tattooed with a B on the forehead, the banished with a
red dye, the other criminals with blue. ... Saxmannen, because they were always armed against the wild beasts and the savage Britons.

If anyone desires to research the British aspect of this story, I recommend to have a look at Geoffrey of Monmouth's The History of the Kings of Britain and the traditions behind it.
They have it the other way around: Britain of Britons was a high
society of learning and culture, that was ravaged by barbaric Angles and Saxons.
This is a pattern where one's own culture is usually shown to be the
only true, right and proper way of life, typically under existential
foreign threat.

Tony S., on 28 December 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:

Aldland,
called by the seafaring people, Atland, disappeared, and the wild waves
rose so high over hill and dale that everything was buried in the sea.

In chapter XIII of The Norsemen the British historian Helene Adeline Guerber notes the following: "In the course of a walk along the sea-shore Odin once beheld nine beautiful giantessess, the wave maidens, Gialp, Greip, Egia, Augeia, Ulfrun, Aurgiafa, Sindur, Atla, and Iarnsaxa, sound asleep on the white sand." In addition, in Finnish language 'wave' is aalto.

Posted 28 December 2015 - 04:57 PM

New and returning posters welcome!
I thought the thread was dying, but it looks like we can breath some new life in it.
I don't have the inspirtation yet to reply to posts, although some of it
is very interesting, but today on a trip I made some pictures that I
think are fascinating.
It was in a small German village (Rimbach, Bornhagen) and shows how the 6
spoke wheel was integrated into the Christian symbology:

Both were taken at the same old tavern and I also saw meat hanging from a
tree there, which I heard is an ancient (prechristian) tradition around
yule/ midwinter (it shows that religious christian people still have
kept some of the much older ways):

Posted 28 December 2015 - 07:24 PM

Abramelin, on 28 December 2015 - 05:56 PM, said:

Hence it must be younger than the original etymology, and hence younger than, say, the 12th century

Your logic is flawed.
OLB has THJUD for people/ folk.
TWISK is another word, meaning between, like english (be)twixt, saterland frisian twiske.
Some examples:
TWISK ANNEN GRÉVET.MAN AND THA MÉNTE
TWISK THÀT BERCHTA EN BURCH BVWA
VPPA GRVND TWISK THA SÛDLIKA HÛSA
Nowhere it is suggested that TWISKLAND is THJUD.S.LAND.
Thy could roughly refer to the same area, and they could be related by association, but it proves nothing.

FromFinland posted 28 December 2015 - 08:52 PM

Tony S., on 28 December 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:

One hundred and one years after the submersion of Aldland a people came out of the East. That people was driven by another.

This reminds me of two parallels:

Authors of Wikipedia state: "Cited by the 4th-century historian Ammianus Marcellinus, Timagenes
(1st century BC) describes how the ancestors of the Gauls were driven
from their native lands in eastern Europe by a succession of wars and
floods."

Fridtjof Nansen's study on fate of the Finnish Bjarmians in Medieval times, page 140: "The
name of the Bjarmas themselves disappears after the middle of the
thirteenth century, when it its related that a number of Bjarmas fled
before the "Mongols" and received permission from King Håkon to live in Malangen fjord." (There is also stuff on Frisians starting right from page 147.)

In
order to facilitate the administration of justice throughout their land
it is related that the Frisians commissioned twelve of their wisest
men, the Asegeir, or elders, to collect the laws of the various families
and tribes composing their nation, and to compile from them a code
which should be the basis of uniform laws. The elders, having
painstakingly finished their task of collecting this miscellaneous
information, embarked upon a small vessel, to seek some secluded spot
where they might conduct their deliberations in peace. But no sooner had
they pushed away from shore than a tempest arose, which drove their
vessel far out to sea, first on this course and then on that, until they
entirely lost their bearings. In their distress the twelve jurists
called upon Forseti, begging him to help them to reach land once again,
and the prayer was scarcely ended when they perceived, to their utter
surprise, that the vessel contained a thirteenth passenger.

Seizing
the rudder, the newcomer silently brought the vessel round, steering it
towards the place where the waves dashed highest, and in an incredibly
short space of time they came to an island, where the steersman motioned
them to disembark. In awestruck silence the twelve men obeyed; and
their surprise was further excited when they saw the stranger fling his
battle-axe, and a limpid spring gush forth from the spot on the
greensward where it fell. Imitating the stranger, all drank of this
water without a word; then they sat down in a circle, marvelling because
the newcomer resembled each one of them in some particular, but yet was
very different from any one of them in general aspect and mien.

Suddenly
the silence was broken, and the stranger began to speak in low tones,
which grew firmer and louder as he proceeded to expound a code of laws
which combined all the good points of the various existing regulations
which the Asegeir had collected. His speech being finished, the speaker
vanished as suddenly and mysteriously as he had appeared, and the twelve
jurists, recovering power of speech, simultaneously exclaimed that
Forseti himself had been among them, and had delivered the code of laws
by which the Frisians should henceforth be judged. In commemoration of
the god’s appearance they declared the island upon which they stood to
be holy, and they pronounced a solemn curse upon any who might dare to
desecrate its sanctity by quarrel or bloodshed. Accordingly this island,
known as Forseti’s land or Heligoland (holy land), was greatly
respected by all the Northern nations, and even the boldest vikings
refrained from raiding its shores, lest they should suffer shipwreck or
meet a shameful death in punishment for their crime.

Solemn
judicial assemblies were frequently held upon this sacred isle, the
jurists always drawing water and drinking it in silence, in memory of
Forseti’s visit. The waters of his spring were, moreover, considered to
be so holy that all who drank of them were held to be sacred, and even
the cattle who had tasted of them might not be slain. As Forseti was
said to hold his assizes in spring, summer, and autumn, but never in
winter, it became customary, in all the Northern countries, to dispense
justice in those seasons, the people declaring that it was only when the
light shone clearly in the heavens that right could become apparent to
all, and that it would be utterly impossible to render an equitable
verdict during the dark winter season. Forseti is seldom mentioned
except in connection with Balder. He apparently had no share in the
closing battle in which all the other gods played such prominent parts."

The story is interesting for many reasons. Let's examine it more closely:

”twelve of their wisest men, the Asegeir, or elders”Ior Bock of Finnish Boxström saga had this to say on the topic, from his 1996 book page 19 with my translation:”Lag
… Twelve people sat together and formed the law. Law has a logic that
it follows. Law is in the vaner language [Finnish language] laki and
logic and means also a team such as footboll team. In team the law is
created.” And it just so happens, that in the Boxström saga it is the asers of South Finland creating the laws and maintaining the social norms.

”to collect the laws of the various families and tribes composing their nation”As Frisians consist of many tribes, it confirms this manuscript quote by Tony S.:

Tony S., on 28 December 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:

As our country was so great and extensive, we had many different names.

Secondly, laws and thus knowledge was kept
in family lines. To my mind, that sounds just like Over de Lindens of
Frisia, Wiliguts of Austro-Hungaria and finally, Boxströms and Raströms
of Finland.

”Accordingly
this island, known as Forseti's land or Heligoland (holy land), was
greatly respected by all the Northern nations, and even the boldest
vikings refrained from raiding its shores” Likewise, in Finnish context Helsinki was founded upon Helsingeå and in Boxström saga Hel of South Finland was indeed a 'holy land' (hel = heliga, 'holy') where only the Finns of aser cultural background lived.

”people declaring that it was only when the light shone clearly in the heavens that right could become apparent to all”Again, in Finnish context of the Boxström
saga it is highlighted how whole of the culture radiates from the sun
first to the ruling family of deciders and finally to the common people.
With the royal family members having symbolical roles of sun and moon,
the latter shining down the light from the first.

... Frisians commissioned twelve of their wisest men, the Asegeir, or elders ...

Just found out, this is a direct cultural reference to the Gladsheimr of the Æsiras described by authors of Wikipedia:

"Snorri states in Gylfaginning that Glaðsheimr is a meeting hall containing thirteen high seats where the male Æsir hold council, located in Iðavöllr in Asgard, near the hall of Vingólf where the Ásynjur goddesses gathered."

I
know people move about and that the old Finns may have been elsewhere
to the modern Finns, nevertheless, the map on the site I linked to above
seems to show that at the height of their (empire)? the borders stopped
at Denmark and this is of course short of Finland.

From Finnish and Nordic point of view it is the contact between the
Finns and Frisians that raises eyebrows in Oera Linda book, as everybody
knows that there have been for many centuries Germanic and Scandinavian
nations in between, and are still of today. My point was to highlight
the later Iron Age Finnish outreach in the Western Scandinavia, from
which it isn't anymore that far to the Frisian areas. If such things
were reality in Iron Age, surely the more earlier accounts told of in
the Oera Linda book could be precursors to that. (That is, they would
make a recurring pattern.)

Of course, we the selected few (
) here in this forum have read our sources of Caesar, Tacitus,
Monmouth, Over de Linden, Bock, Ganander and Norse sagas. Still, most of
those sources are not known deeply in modern
Nordic lands either by academics or history lovers amongst the general
population. And based on the reader listing at the bottom left corner of
this forum I suspect we have quite a few "lurkers" here who take
interest, even though they do not contribute in writing as such. That's
also why I took to represent information in a visual form, for some
people (like me) conceive information that way more easily than in
written form.

Ell, on 29 December 2015 - 10:02 PM, said:

This
certainly opens the possibility that the name Over de Linden refers not
to a tree, but to a 'castle'. (...)

And I shall again quote mr. Bock from 1996 (page 67), my translation:

"Castles and lines [linnat ja linjat]

The crown of Seppo
Ilmarinen is a crown of a fir tree, a 'fir's crown' that is. The leaf of
a palm tree and twig of a fir are similar in shape. In both grow
spikes, which symbolise "lines". In tropical times symbol of a king was a
palm tree leaf, and a fir twig in the arctic period. [...] Castle comes
from the word line. There were lines of different types [...] For this
Seppo's offering system there were hill forts [linnavuoria],
on top of which buildings were often erected. Seppo had a possibility
to leave [Aesir province of] Uudenmaa by going from castle to castle. As
not all people were allowed to come to Uudenmaa, for that reason for
example Kyrö castle [Olavinlinna]
was situated outside the Uudenmaa [...] Also Maija Ilmatar [queen's
title] could leave Uudenmaa by going from castle to castle. A line leads
to a castle"

Same book also goes on to highlight the meaning of the family trees (page 38) and includes a variant on the Norse story of Ask and Embla.

From Väinämöinen's (i.e. Odin's) moral code on a good living we can find the following detail:

Likely
this refers to Finnish folk practice of planting a tree at the exact
spot, where one saw an elf-spirit while dreaming as a part of a ritual
to check if a plot of land was suitable for building work. This clearly
pre-Christian ritual is known to be practiced in the later Christian
times, as it is represented in Elina and Maija Ranta's book Haltijoitten mailla, maahisten majoilla (WSOY 1996).

Posted 30 December 2015 - 06:12 PM

Abramelin, on 30 December 2015 - 05:17 PM, said:

This is the right etymology for Twiskland: Þeodscland/Þeodiscland/Theodiscland >> Twiskland

BTW so called 'folk etymology' may very well be just as old as what you call 'original' etymology.
In other words, our ancient ancestors may already have played with ambiguity and associative naming.

I think the alleged god Tuisco was made up to provide for the people who identified with living in 'Tuiscland'.
The Scandinavian version Tyskland may have come from 'twisk', while Deutsch and Dutch will come from thjud.

FromFinland posted 01 January 2016 - 03:05 PM

Ell, on 31 December 2015 - 11:47 PM, said:

Might this also be translated as "at the top of which lies the house"?

In this case, no - the tree is next to the house. This is confirmed by
the Finnish folk belief I mentioned in the previous post, again my
translation (Ranta 1996, p. 90-91):

"If
you got a permission from the land owner for building work, do not
raise your house at the exact point where the elf-spirit stood in your
dream, but plant there a tree instead. If it happens that you'll die
before making a testament, your heirs will find with the help of the
tree what was your wish. They must cast a ballot to have one person, who goes to sleep under the tree. The elf-spirit of the plot of land will come to the sleeping persons dream and tells, how you would have wanted the heirs to act on the inheritance."

The Boxström saga details the heathen
belief in elf-spirits and they are detailed as beneficial, as in
house-keepers taking care of the household animals and so on (Bock 1996,
p. 57). In this regard it parallels the Finnish folk customs still
practised in the 19th century countryside.

This
people have not even a name; but we call them Finns, because although
all the festivals are melancholy and bloody, they are so formal that we
are inferior to them in that respect. But still they are not to be
envied, because they are slaves to their priests, and still more to
their creeds. They believe thatevil spirits abound everywhere, and enter into men and beasts, but of Wr-alda’s spirit they know nothing. [...]

43. THIS WRITING HAS BEEN GIVEN TO ME ABOUT NORTHLAND AND SCHOONLAND[...]

Moreover, they believe in bad spirits, witches, sorcerers, dwarfs, and elves, as if they descended from the Finns."

Nowhere else in the OLB is land or lands spelled without a "d".
Once LÔNE is used separately, which was not translated by Sandbach, while Ottema had "laan" (lane).

I suspect that this is actually the same word as in the 'mining'
context. On wiki I read that ancient tin mining in Cornwall was not done
deeply in the earth, but in superficial streams (straight lines). So I
suppose that "tin lanes" and "silver lanes" would be a good alternative
to the existing translations. See fragments and original translations
below.

6 [048/08] O-S p.69BRITTANJA MITH SINA TIN.LÁNA. [...] WAS THAT LAND THÉRA BANNALINGABritain (...) with her tin mines (...) was the land of the exiles
Brittannie met zijne tinlanden (...) was het land der ballingen

I think -mines is better than -lands and thought this was an example of
Sandbach's translation being better than the ones by Ottema and Jensma,
but then why did he translate "silver countries" and not "silver mines"?

Apol posted 02 January 2016 - 06:42 PM

Regarding: LÔNA, LÂNA:Jan de Vries (Nederlands etymologisch woordenboek) and Douglas Harper (www.etymonline.com) explain Old Norse lön (plural: lanar) as ‘row of houses’, ‘way/road’, ‘barn’. Marius Hægstad and Alf Torp (Gamalnorsk ordbok med nynorsk tyding),
however, translate it as ‘elongated pile or heap’. It is undoubtedly
the same word in question, and ‘elongated pile or heap’ explains exactly
what it is about.

From Finland posted 02 January 2016 - 08:24 PM

Apol, on 02 January 2016 - 05:16 AM, said:

In
her time, Finda had also invented a script; but it was so high-flown
and full of frizzles and curls that the descendants soon had lost the
meaning of it. Afterwards they had learnt our script, by name the Finns,
the Tyrians, and the Krêkalanders.

If we do some little discourse analysis, it's easy to note how Finns are
listed as among the other eastern nations, which is in the geographical
sense true (see the attached map).

There is some disagreement whether the Central European Fennii are the
same as the Nordic Finns (like me). Pasi Ockenström lists in his book (Fenni vai ei 2010, title means 'Fenni or not' in English) some clues:

Central European Fennii:
- described very primaevel for their time, as confirmed by archeological
research of G. V. Styhov with iron tools replacing stone and bone items
not until the first centuries AD (!)
- described as wild and brutal ('feritas' by Tacitus), matching the later mention in Nestor's chronicle of backwardish and wild Severian people moving from the area of modern Poland to Russian areas
- Tacitus's description puts them in the approximate area of Belarus, where the topology matches regarding the mountains
- Fennii may come from fen, a bog or a swamp.

Nordic Finns:
- same technology level as neighbours, including metal tools and weapons
- always described as peaceful and military activity depicted usually either as of defensive or reactive in type (even the Norway episode presented as a rescue operation)
- lived always here as long as everybody knows and sources always put at the Nordic area
- likewise name Suomi may come from suo or 'swamp', suomaa 'swamp-land' amongst many other speculations.

Mr. Ockenström's conclusion is that the Central European Fennii may be a
separate people from the Nordic Finns. They are known to have
disappeared from the history scene by the Russia's Rurikid period when
their remnants moved to the Russian areas together with many other
Slavic tribes. That is, they as western migrants mixed up with the
native ethnic Finns of Nordic type and the few Scandinavian immigrants
of viking heritage. That Finn/Fennii is not a direct reference to
person's ethnicity and cultural background is confirmed also by the fact
that Lapps have sometimes been referred to as 'Finns' by Scandinavians,
whereas the Northern Finns living next to them were called Kvens (from
Kainuu and Kajaani) or Carelians, with the people of Southern Finland
being called Finns of Finland by same sources. Yet the Kvens and
Carelians are just as 100 % pure ethnic and cultural Finns, unlike the
Lapps of Lappland.

We may of course ponder if those Fennii of Tacitus were only a pitiful
remnant of once greater Fennii-tribe, and whether they and us the Nordic
Finns were merely different tribes of the same people to begin with:

Oera Linda book said:

They
divided themselves into two crowds. Each host went its way. From the
first part no word has come to us, but the other part fell afterwards
into our Skênland.

I'm personally not so sure as to what to make of this all, as names like
Finn are also known amongst the Scandinavians (popular viking name
Thorfinn), Irishmen (popular recurring king's name) and Frisians (again a
king's name). If you ask my opinion for the least likely scenario, it is the theory of Asian origins which is belied by studies on the distribution of blond hair and blue eyes.

Apol, on 02 January 2016 - 07:13 PM, said:

(...)Finda may possibly be identical with an old Wendic (“Findic”) mother goddess of pre-Celtic origin, named Vinda(Vindo, Uinda, Uindo, Uinde). (...) Vinda is closely related to the old mother and reindeer goddess Bovinda, who has roots back in the Neolithic age. It probably is about the same deity.
Bovinda did in turn probably originate in India, where we find Govinda as one of the many names for the Hindu god Krishna. The word is composed of go (‘cow’) and wind
(‘find’), meaning ‘cow finder’, i.e. ‘cow shepherd’, and which seems to
confirm that Finda means ‘to find’ – but in the significance of ‘to
find for protection’.

Posted 03 January 2016 - 11:42 AM

FromFinland, on 02 January 2016 - 08:24 PM, said:

I'm
personally not so sure as to what to make of this all, as names like
Finn are also known amongst the Scandinavians (popular viking name
Thorfinn), Irishmen (popular recurring king's name) and Frisians (again a
king's name). If you ask my opinion for the least likely scenario, it is the theory of Asian origins which is belied by studies on the distribution of blond hair and blue eyes.

Again, an excellent post. So much good stuff.
I think there has indeed been confusion about tribal names, which is also illustrated by the many names for Germany, see map:

Another thing to consider is that already in the earliest times, the Magí consciously mixed his blood with that of the Fryas:

pp.55-56 (Sandbach p.79)

Quote

When
Wodin returned, Magy gave him his daughter to wife. (...) His reign
lasted seven years, and then he disappeared. The Magy said that he was
taken up by their gods and still reigned over us, but our people laughed
at what they said. (...) but the Magy did just as he pleased, because
his daughter had a son by Wodin, and he would have it that this son was
of high descent. While all were disputing and quarrelling, he crowned
the boy as king, and set up himself as guardian and counsellor.

The negative feelings of the Fryas for the "Finns" may have been based
mostly on the Magí and his army (of "Finns") conquering ever more parts
of "Fryasland" (specially in the 6th c. BCE when the "Book of Adela
Followers" would first have been compiled), but most people simply
living in the lands that were ruled by the Magí (among which what is now
"Finland") may still just have been of original indigenous (blond and
blue eyed) stock.

Posted 03 January 2016 - 03:52 PM

Apol, on 03 January 2016 - 03:09 PM, said:

(...)The
part of Finda’s people against whom the Freyjans had such a grudge,
seems to have been largely the same peoples who in our time have adopted
Islam. It may thus appear that the European fear of Islam runs deep in
history – long before the raise of Islamism. On page 71/26-29 Greece is
conferred to Finda’s people, while the country today must be regarded as
conquered by Freyja’s culture. The border has been moved to neighboring
Turkey.»

I
think that Finda's people originally was the straight-black-haired
Asians, but that it all became mixed up after the natural catastrophe of
2193 BC. (...)

Yes, I agree. Very well said.

FromFinland posted 03 January 2016 - 04:38 PM

I'll continue again
in my research by comparison, first between Oera Linda book and the
Boxström saga, then the secord part between Oera Linda book and the
Norse sagas as another post.

I) This is a little comparative analysis between Oera Linda book and
Boxström saga (1996 book with my translations). First we have a piece of
text from the Oera Linda book:

Now We Will Write about the War between the Burgtmaagden Kalta and Min-erva,

And how we thereby lost all our southern lands and Britain to the Golen.

Near the southern mouth
of the Rhine and the Scheldt there are seven islands, named after
Frya’s seven virgins of the week. In the middle of one island is the
city of Walhallagara (Middelburg), and on the walls of this city the
following history is inscribed. Above it are the words “Read, learn, and
watch."

Let's tear it apart to see if it has any similarities to the Boxström saga:

"Near the southern mouth of the Rhine and the Scheldt there are seven islands, named after Frya's seven virgins of the week."

Pages 12 and 47:

Viapori [naval fortress
of Suomenlinna] was in our stories the Paradise Islands or the Sun
Islands. […] After the ice age here was Hel, a city of Hel. All of this
was destroyed the year 1050 [...]

At the great church of
Stockholm a paper was signed 16.7.1750, according to which Helsinki's
seven islands were to be made into Sveaborg [Swedish name for the
fortress of Suomenlinna]. That is, 700 years later, at 16.7 our old holy
islands were made to be a Sveaborg. That's why my mother [Rhea Boxström
1899-1984] got interested to find out what had happened at Viapori
[Suomenlinna], because for her it had been known as Odensö [Oden's
island] and Odensborg [Oden's castle] […] The central island of the
Hel's seven islands was Oden's island

I note that in the Boxström saga the islands are not named after the days of the week, but by other mythological names.

"In the middle of one island is the city of Walhallagara (Middelburg)"

Pages 40, 51 and 79:

At the middle of
Uudenmaa was a mountain called Listening Mountain, or Lyssnarberget. At
the middle of the Listening Mountain was a hole, the midpoint of the
planet […] It was Valhalla […] Hel was the centre point of the
Uudenmaa's aesir, that's why it was called Aas-Hel. Hel was […] a city.
It was the Midgården of the stories at the place of current Helsinki.
There existed a saying ”Hel stan var den heliga staden och vetenskap
från Hel var helvetet”, that is: Hel was a holy city and information
coming from Hel was ”helveten” [hell], or knowledge from Hel. […] val
means elections [as in 'validate'], hall a hall and a the aesir.

"and on the walls of this city the following history is inscribed"

Page 47 on Midgård:

A ring-shaped wall surrounded the towers

"Above it are the words “Read, learn, and watch.”"

Page 5:

My mother and my sister [Rhea and Rachel Boxström] have given this
mythology to me. They told stories and held discussions. Both of them
were in attendance, otherwise one coudn't speak of the matter. If one
made small mistake, another would correct it. […] When they told
stories, I was not allowed to say a word. Mother always said that one
learns better by listening than by speaking. Storytelling took place so
that one sat at the floor near the fireplace and at the light of the
candles.

Surely I am not the only one who sees the thematic connection here?

Second part of the research by comparison, this time between Oera Linda book and the Norse sagas.

II) We start again with a piece of text from the Oera Linda book, I have bolded the parts of interest:

When Wodin returned, Magy gave him his daughter to wife.
Whereupon he was incensed with herbs; but they were magic herbs, and by
degrees he became so audacious that he dared to disavow and ridicule
the spirits of Frya and Wr-alda, while he bent his free head before the
false and deceitful images. His reign lasted seven years, and then he
disappeared. The Magy said that he was taken up by their gods and still
reigned over us, but our people laughed at what they said. When Wodin
had disappeared some time, disputes arose. We wished to choose another
king, but the Magy would not permit it. He asserted that it was his
right given him by his idols. But besides this dispute there was one
between the Magyars and Finns, who would honour neither Frya nor Wodin;
but the Magy did just as he pleased, because his daughter had a son by Wodin, and he would have it that this son was of high descent.

This is a variation of a Nordic legend, as seen in Hélène Guerber's Myths of the Norsemen, chapters XIV and XVI:

”Odin bade Hermod don his armour and saddle Sleipnir, which he alone,
besides Odin, was allowed to ride, and hasten off to the land of the
Finns.
[…]
The most noted of these Finnish magicians was Rossthiof (the horse
thief) who was wont to entice travellers into his realm by magic arts,
that he might rob and slay them; and he had power to predict the future,
although he was always very reluctant to do so.
[…]
Rossthiof now began to explain the omens which his art had conjured up,
and he declared that the stream of blood portended the murder of one of
Odin’s sons, but that if the father of the gods should woo and win
Rinda, in the land of the Ruthenes (Russia), she would bear him a son
who would attain his full growth in a few hours and would avenge his
brother’s death.
[…]
Billing, king of the Ruthenes, was sorely dismayed when he heard that a
great force was about to invade his kingdom, for he was too old to fight
as of yore, and his only child, a daughter named Rinda, although she
was of marriageable age, obstinately refused to choose a husband from
among her many suitors, and thus give her father the help which he so
sadly needed.
[…]
His services being joyfully accepted, it was not long ere Odin—for it
was he—won a signal victory, and, returning in triumph, he asked
permission to woo the king’s daughter Rinda for his wife.
[…]
The prophecy of Rossthiof was now fulfilled, for Rinda duly bore a son named Vali”

It must be noted here that if this story has any connection whatsoever
to the real past, the Russia of Billing and Rinda here must surely be of
pre-Rurikid Finnish age. For example, name of the princess ”Rinda”
means 'breast' or 'chest' in Finnish (rinta). Such call-names are well known from Finnish heathen poetry, where a lady might be called for example 'tinchest' or 'tinbreast' (tinarinta) after her rich jewerly.

As the Magy of the Oera Linda book has a strong thematic connection of
the east, you'll surely see the parallel to Russia in Norse story above.
Overall this reminds of the story of Balder, of which we know both
legends of mythical type and the legends of more historical type.

I just realised that this very the same myth is buried deep also in the
Boxström saga, though it's a little more difficult to notice it at first
glance. Please follow me: here it's the Finland Swedish speaking Aesir of Uudenmaa (i. e.in the western
part of the old Finland), of whose prince bearing the family title of
Balder (not his given name) gets always his life companion and mother to
his children from amongst the Finnish speaking Vanir. The Vanir areas
being all the Finnish areas outside of South Finland, known collectively
by the names of Rosland and Karjala (i. e. the vast mass in geographic
and demographic sense being situated in the east).

The wife of Balder is a Van, or a Finnish speaking Finn, chosen from
amongst the most beautiful women of all the various Vanir lands
surrounding the land of the Aesir. The catch is, in this variant of the
story, the so-called Balder upon the 27th birthday of his twelth son by a
Van woman changes his family title from Balder to Per, or Väinämöinen
in Finnish language. And anybody with even elementary knowledge of Nordic mythos knows that Väinämöinen is the Finnish name for Odin.

It's just the same narrative of western Odin marrying an
eastern girl, of which Frisian, Scandinavian and Finnish variants we
have just seen here.

FromFinland posted 04 January 2016 - 03:53 PM

Apol, on 04 January 2016 - 11:21 AM, said:

Everywhere where land has submerged or become flooded, it has been termed "Atlantis" - by laymen as well as scientists.

Boxströms had this to say on the topic, page 69 of the 1996 book:

Lands that were covered
by ice during the Atlantis [ice age], have the 'land' in their names,
whereas tropical lands do not have such land-names. Lands under the ice
were Rosland [Russia], Vinland [Finland], Svealand, Daneland,
Frankenland, England and Holland, and for example Italy and Spain were
tropical. Thailand used to be called Siam.

Same book gives also altenate names for some of the nations above, such
as Svearike for the Svealand and Danmark for the Daneland. The way I
interpret this text and the book overall, is that it doesn't claim names
like Frankenland, England or Holland to have been already in use by the
end of the last ice age. It's more like that such naming system was
applied in general in Nordic lands to such nations known to have been
under the ice in the old times. The Boxströms claim that knowledge of
ice age was known in the Nordic lands (including the later Medieval
Christian period), which is not at all that odd to my mind, as a person
visiting any Nordic nation can witness for himself/herself the levelling
scraping-marks, that were left by the the receding ice blocks on the
bedrock like everywhere.

We know from history books that in the Finnish language Finland's old names were such as Suomenmaa ('Land of Suomi') and Saarenmaa ('Land of Islands', today an island west of Estonian mainland). Likewise, Russia was either Venäjä in short form or Venäjänmaa in long form. Old Finnish administrative divisions from historical times also used plenty of the word 'land', as in Turunmaa ('land of Turku'), Hämeenmaa ('land of Häme'), Ahvenanmaa ('land of perch', or Åland) and so on.

FromFinland posted 04 January 2016 - 06:01 PM

Passing Time, on 04 January 2016 - 11:30 AM, said:

are the Boxstrom saga's available on line?

Yes and no. I'll explain: The Boxström family saga as presented by the
Ior Bock has never been collected into one single book or documentary
film, containing the whole saga in its entirety. Instead, there are
several books by different authors, each of which tells something about
the saga. The most comprehensive book on the subject was published only
in the Finnish language in 1996. It is available online for ordering
or from most of the larger Finnish libraries, classified either under
'non-Christian religion', 'mythology' or 'folk poetry'. To date it gives
by far the best overview on the subject, altough even it doesn't
include all the elements or components of the saga. It should be noted
that it took 20 years to teach the entire saga to Ior Bock, so therefore
it would be hard to contain all this huge amount of knowledge into a
single book or tape recording.

Since 1996 some information has been published in Finnish language by
Ior's good friend and author Leo Nygren as several booklets of small
distribution, some of them currently out of print. These books are
likewise valuable as sources, though it's somewhat difficult to separate
from their contents the Boxström traditions, Ior's personal opinions on
matters or the authors personal opinions. This is not helped at all by
the fact that mr. Nygren - while being a good man in person - doesn't
have an academic background, with the result that IMHO his books can at
times be easy to read, but at other times irritating as hell to read.

In 1984 when Ior first spoke publicly about the matter, he was
interviewed and the tape recordings catalogued and stored by the Finnish
national authorities responsible for preserving the folklore, namely SKS and SLS.
All the while during the 1980s, 1990s and 2000s Ior was subject to
several televison appearances, some of which are as of 2016 available
online: 1986, 1991 and 2002.

Finland's National Board of Antiquities has catalogued
and commented on places relevant to the family tradition in question,
but it has been seriously lacking in scope. The rocky Balder's temple of
Sipoo is commented over there as "interesting from geological point of
view", while if taken literally is true, but IMHO is an understatement
of the century as per my own experience of that place. One doesn't need
to believe the Boxström saga to see for oneself, that the place is
seriously odd for a natural formation, including stone stairways for
starters.

At the same time, Ior's personal friends from all over the planet made
videos and audio records about the theme, some of which can be seen on
the internet and some others were thought lost, but have been
re-discovered recently in the 2010s. As all of this was a private hobby
effort after the initial recordings of 1984, there was no central place
where the information would be collected. North American Jim Chesnar has been the most active.
He knew Ior personally in the 1980s and is able to relate the story in
detail. His spelling of Finnish is better than his literary output,
where he makes few small mistakes, which is understandable as he doesn't
speak either Swedish or Finnish as his native language.

So to sum it up, the information is spread all over and large parts of
it are only in Finnish or Swedish. If you're able to understand Swedish,
Danish, Norwegian or Icelandic, this video from 1986 might be a good start.

Passing Time, on 04 January 2016 - 11:30 AM, said:

could the name Finn's have anything to do with the constant mention of the INN , in many of the saga's where Thor is mentioned ?

I'm not familiar with such a thing and couldn't find any relevant
information by googling. Could you explain a little more, please? The
ones I'm aware of are the Nordic male names of Thorfinn, Thor-like names
of the Finnish royals (Thorri and Thora) and one of the Thor's many
names Oku-Thor, that is Ukko-Thor from Finnish ukko 'old man' and ukkonen 'thunder'.

Passing Time, on 04 January 2016 - 11:30 AM, said:

have you ever read L.A.Waddell's The british Edda

No, I haven't. I'm aware of the book thanks to this great forum thread.
As I have currently several books to read, it may be realistic to say
that I might not even be able to read it this year. It's contents sound
interesting, though.

Passing Time, on 04 January 2016 - 11:30 AM, said:

where
he seems to think that the stories of Thor, Odin and Balder are copies
of older stories from probably Summerian times of Adam , Eve , Abel and
Cain , re-named for the Eddas , and then re-named and re-worked again
for the Arthurian Romances.........

Heer-Thor becoming Ar-Thor , Hother-us becoming Uther, Gewar King of Norway becoming Gewain , and his daughter
princess Nanna , being Arthurs Sister Anna , etc.. do you have any thoughts on this ?... regards PT

Sounds like the works of Laurence Gardner to my mind. As my interest is focused on the Northern European scene, I do not have much to say on these matters.

FromFinland posted 05 January 2016 - 03:37 PM

Passing Time, on 04 January 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

regarding the mentions of the INN in the so called by Waddell.... The British Edda [...]
any idea what the Inn was , and if it could have any connection to the F-inns ?

Ah, now I see what you referred into. I had a quick look at The British Edda, and I say wow, that for sure is some deep stuff! Over there Inn is used in the connection of the Od, or Odin in the full long form, and Thor:

Soul gave them Od(-am) o' the Inn (page 26)

Of all the dwarf tribes, and For Thor o ' the Inn, another. (page 47)

As I do not speak English as my first language, I had to check what the o' means and found out it means either of or on. Clearly Inn
isn't here a reference to a hotel or a tavern. PT, I can see your point
on it being a literary clue to the Finn or (F)Inn, as you would have
it. Norse male name Thorfinn does indeed fit that pattern, as do some
variants of the Norse mythos, where the heroes are from the Finnish
cultural background. However, as the source of the text is (I guess) The Poetic Edda, I would first think of the possibility that it refers to Ing, as explained by authors of Wikipedia:

Ing was first amidst the East Danes

[...]

In Scandinavian mythology, Yngvi, alternatively spelled Yngve, was the progenitor of the Yngling lineage, a legendary dynasty of Swedish kings

[...]

The element Ing(o)- was widely used in Germanic names from an early period

My guess is on the Inn referring to the house of the Ing or Ynglinga, the premium Swedish royal family. So in my view the original text says in the modern English "Odin of the Ynglinga family" and "Thor of the Ynglinga family".
As for Ell's take on the matter, I must confess I'm totally lost on
what he refers into. Ell, could you open it up for me, please?

Posted 05 January 2016 - 06:08 PM

Abramelin, on 05 January 2016 - 05:15 PM, said:

But
I also know that Thiudiskland developed into Twiskland (Frisians) and
Tyskland (Scandinavia), and it came into existence around the 12th
century.

How do you 'know'? Or better: why do you believe that?
It can be the other way around, or the names can have existed simultaneously.

Quote

in Westphalia they say Düsk instead of Deutsch. Sounds an awful lot like Twisk or Tysk, don't you think?

No, rather like Dütsk: Dütsch: Deutsch.

Quote

Nowhere before the 12th century is Germany called Thiudiskland

Neither is it in the OLB.

Posted 06 January 2016 - 11:31 AM

Othar, on 05 January 2016 - 06:13 PM, said:

Apol, did you notice that the ode to Frya ("Frya was white like snow ...") has twelve parts too?

Did you know that there are 12 femme-burghs in Freyjasland - according to page 5?

Nice, I had not noticed yet. I do not think it is just a coincidence.
BTW the Netherlands currently has 12 provinces...

Posted 08 January 2016 - 08:44 PM

Abramelin, on 08 January 2016 - 06:29 PM, said:

This is the etymological dictionary I used...

These threads have countless examples of failing 'official' etymology
and I have seen many cases of etymologists disagreeing on fundamental
questions among each other.
The dictionary you used assumes that "tiusche (lant)" is derived from
"theodisca" (and varieties), but provides no evidence or arguments.

edit to add: But even if it had provided evidence
for this, it would not have proven that "TWISKLAND" could not (also)
have been an ancient name.

Quote

You just don't want to see...

Don't imagine you know what I think or (don't) want. We've been there. Let's stick to the facts.

Quote

And it would be somewhat odd...

Things may be odd in your perception, but that does not make them impossible.
This is not a scientific approach.

As always until now, your argument boils down to "I just can't imagine that the OLB is authentic."
Many discoveries in the past could not be imagined by 'skeptics' until they were generally accepted (and 'obviously' true).

Posted 08 January 2016 - 08:50 PM

Abramelin, on 08 January 2016 - 06:53 PM, said:

... the name of the book is actually inside the OLB:...et bok thêra Adellinga

This makes "twiskland" an argument in favour of OLB's authenticity.
Tusen takk, Apol!

Apol posted 13 January 2016 - 11:10 AM

Othar, on 10 January 2016 - 02:46 PM, said:

Could be very interesting, but link does not seem to work and I can't find the book online. Can you check please?

This
is strange. I wasn't able to find again the book I downloaded a couple
of days ago. It seems like it has been removed from visibility.But, luckily, I found another edition (Andreas Duncker, Brunswick, 1656):

Joachim Hoppers (1523-1576) was a Frisian lawyer and professor who
worked for the Spanish king (Philip II). He appears to have written
about Frisia's ancient history, but I have not found that text yet.
According to the "Chronique", he wrote that the Frisians stem from the
"High-Nordic peoples or Hyperboreans" and were the first to have
received the secrets of writing.

The book chapter linked by
Apol mentions Zealand of Denmark and the East and West Götaland of
southern Sweden. Perhaps this Beowulfian landscape is the home of the "High-Nordic peoples"?

Edit: in the Boxström family saga it's the Dan (of three brothers Sven,
Dan and Fin), who moves to Denmark to establish a dynasty, that in turn
fathers all the continental Nordic white peoples of Central Europe (i.
e. Frisians, Angles, Saxons, Franks and such). As a source it emphasises
how the Central European heathen dynasties are all off-shoots of the
Danish line, unlike the people of the Scandinavian Peninsula (Sven's
people) and East Europe (Fin's people).

FromFinland posted 15 January 2016 - 04:01 PM

Ell, on 15 January 2016 - 12:24 AM, said:

I also suspect Sven, Dan and Fin to be identical with the Vé, Odin and Vili of Asgardian mythology.

The Finnish variant of the brother story beautifully entwines three stories known from other sources:

2. Story of Fornjótr the ruler of Gotland, Finland and Kvenland, for Sven, Dan and Fin were too from Gotland originally, before spreading out to found Nordic nations.

3 The story of Gutasaga. Attention Frisian readers: note the Greek connection over there!

It's good you Ell noticed the similarity to the Odin brotherhood of Vé,
Odin and Vili, and I must add here that the Austro-Hungarian Wiligut
family tradition, as relayed by officer Karl Maria Wiligut (1866-1946),
claimed descent from the Vili branch, whereas the Finnish Boxström
family tradition claims descent from the Fin branch.

Othar, on 15 January 2016 - 03:27 PM, said:

I would not know where to start

Perhaps you wrote in a rhetorical sense, but merely glancing at the
pages one sees that vast majority of the pages in question do not speak
of geographical or demographical matters. Some pages seem to have
something about Roman gods, and finally on the page 741 we have suddenly
three real-life Nordic place names in succession. Page 741 is the right
one, if you ask me.

Abramelin posted 16 January 2016 - 04:48 PM

I remember we disussed the word "bukja" not that long ago, but I only get search results from the 2nd part of this thread.

Anyway, everyone here was convinced that the translation should be "girl" or "little girl", based on "buik" = belly, and so on.
I , however, am convinced it should be translated into "little boy".

In short: the Lexicon gives us words (boike & bûke) that come very close to the OLB "bukja".

And watching a movie ("Elysium", a scifi movie with Jodie Foster and
Matt Damon) recently, I heard a South African, the 'bad guy' called
'Kruger' (played by Sharlto Copley), say the word "boykie" a couple of
times, when he and Matt Demon were beating the crap out of each other,
and Matt Demon - for those who don't know him - is not a girl, lol. An
interesting aside: one of the main characters in this movie, a woman, is
called "Frey".

"Where are you, boykie? Where are you?"
"Eh, boykie?"
"You've got some fire in you, boykie."

And in the English subtitles the word "boykie" is not translated, and in
italics (which is odd, because the producers were also South Africans).
South Afrikaans has retained a lot of archaic features of the Dutch language.

FromFinland posted 17 January 2016 - 01:50 PM

Tony S., on 28 December 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:

The priests are the only rulers; they call themselves Magyars, and their headman Magy. He is high priest
and king in one. The rest of the people are of no account, and in
subjection to them. This people have not even a name; but we call them Finns,
because although all the festivals are melancholy and bloody, they are
so formal that we are inferior to them in that respect. But still they
are not to be envied, because they are slaves to their priests, and still more to their creeds. They believe that evil spirits abound everywhere, and enter into men and beasts, but of Wr-alda’s spirit they know nothing. The Magyars affirm that they can exorcise and recall the evil spirits, and this frightens the people, so that you never see a cheerful face.

Here's alternative etymology for the Magy: in Finnish language mahti means
'might', but also on spiritual sense. Mr. Raimo Jussila, a licentiate
of philosophy, has the following to tell in his dictionary book Kalevalan sanakirja (Otava 2009), page 213:

As the first place amongst mythological Finnish heroes is held by
Odin-like old man Väinämöinen, known for his superb magician's skills,
the description of magy doesn't sound that off the mark.

Of course, it could just be a variant of the tribal name Magyar, in a bit similar way how a leader of a Germanic Hundertschaft was called Hunno, a dual status both for a civilian and military roles(as per the page 25 of J. O. Hannula's 1931 book Sotataidon Historia II).

FromFinland posted 17 January 2016 - 05:03 PM

As for whether Oera Linda book's Finns have any relations to the Nordic Finns, let see what Julius Krohn
had to tell in his book 'The heathen service of the Finnish kin'
(Finnish Literature Society, Helsinki, 1984, pages 35, 124-126, my
translations):

Everytime one went to
take a bath [at the lake], one had to take grain to the big stone of
Immonen. [...] Kirsti Toivanen had been for long the priestess of the
stone; through her the offers were laid and she told the people doing
the sacrifice the answers given by the elves. On the eastern beach of
the Vahvajärvi at Tikanmäki had been similar offering stone. When it's
priestess, the old hag, passed away the stone broke into several pieces.

In year 1534 arch-bishop Makarij, as has been mentioned earlier, complains that the tschudes [ethnic Finns] living in the Novgorod area have their own priests, which are called 'ballot casters' [arpojat], arbui, of whose chapels they bought sacrifices.

On one different
occasion, the Estonians cast a lot between a fat ox and just as fat
[Christian] priest, which they had seated on the ox's back. It's not
told in detail how it actually happened, only that the lot was cast on
the ox, which was immediately butchered. Possibly the same people's
elders who held the offer, also acted as warchiefs during a war, and as
judges during the peace.

Still in these days
[1894] there has remained recollections of sacrificial priests. To
Russwurm had one man in the Mihkeli parish of western Estonia told, that
he had once seen his grandfather to kneel down before a great stone
lying in a field. When he had inquired, what his grandpa was up to, the
grandpa slammed his hand on his ears and told to keep silent on the
matter, yet declared at the same, that they were descendants of a priest
family, of whose holy duty was to serve the old gods.

Of Estonian wise men, targad [tark = 'wise', tarkka = 'precise', 'sharp'], exists notes worthy of attention. According to Wiedemann they existed in different types: salt-targad or salt-speakers, word-targad or pronouncers, wind- and stone-targad, of which the latter were able to explain the lines in the chalk stone, and the mightiest of all, the so-called Mana-targad [Manala = 'underworld'].

Of Finnish sacrificial
priests hardly anything is know for the simple reason, that common
sacrifices have almost disappeared, save for eastern Carelia or Russian
side [of the border]. As we have discussed earlier of those female
priests, who in Leppälahti took the sacrifices, for other people too, to
the holy stones and told them the answers given by the elves.

As for the "but, like the Egyptians, they have priests and also statues in their churches", let's have Kaarle Krohn speak on the subject in his book 'Religions of the Finnish kin' (Helsinki 1915, page 209, my translation):

In the Estonia proper's famous sacrificial grove it's told of the missionaries to have felled "the made images and such ones".

In [Estonian island of] Saarenmaa it's mentioned that the [Christian] Germans upon conquering one castle threw out the picture depicting Tarapitha, or Thor.

The statues of Finn's are well known is Nordic sagas, which detail the adventures in the Finnish Bjarmaland or Risaland (Rysland, or Russia). There the Finns have rich statues for so-called Jomali, which means in Finnish 'god' (jumala). As told in the occasionally high-fantastic saga of Bosi and Heraud:

Here in the forest
stands a great temple. King Harek owns it, who rules here over
Bjarmaland. The god called Jomali is worshipped. There is much gold and
treasure. The king's mother, who is called Kolfrosta, is in charge of
the temple.

[...]

They came to the altar
where Jomali was sitting. They took the gold crown from him, set with
twelve gemstones, and a necklace, worth three hundred gold marks, and
from his knees they took a silver cup so large, that even four men could
not empty it. It was full of red gold. But the precious canopy, which
hung over Jomala, was worth more than the contents of three ships, the
richest to sail the Mediterranean Sea. They took it all for themselves.

Same statue of Jomali existed in 1026 A.D. when the historical person Torer Hund visited it in Bjarmaland. It's described as
being of propably wooden make and situationed in a wooden grove. It had
a thick and valuable neck chain and at it's knees it had a silver bowl
full of money. In addition the same garden-grove had a burial mound full
of treasures and was guarded by six guards at all times.

Apol, on 17 January 2016 - 02:31 PM, said:

It was certainly Ahmose I who was the pharaoh in 1551 BC. [...] No pharaoh had made military campaigns that far north in the Levant before.

While being a minor detail to the matter you write of, I must here relate that according to Jordanes the Gothic king Tanausis beat the pharaoh Vesosis' attack in the battle of river Phasis of modern-day Georgia. Name of the pharaoh Vesosis, or Sesostris, is believed to refer to Senusret III, who is in turn though to have reigned from 1878 BC to 1839 BC.

Jordanes claims to base his knowledge on written sources:

For myself, I prefer to believe what I have read, rather than put trust in old wives' tales.

Maybe, but on the other hand a 'boy' is pojke in Swedish (as Ell told) and poika
in Finnish. As words and names tend to become shorter in time, one
would suspect for the long form to be the one of a great age.*

The diminutive ending might still apply, as in flicka or 'girl', as opposed to the adult man/kvinna, which do not have the ykie/jke/ika-ending. (k -> youngster, n -> adult.)

(made bold by me, Othar:)

*Yes, I know the so-called linguists have their *PIE fantasies of the
exact opposite lineage, where *asterix words are invented to back up
made-up theories and the southern European known variants of the words
are always considered to be as of more ancient age, as if they were
somehow immune to the vast cultural changes known to have happened over
there. Totally unlike the Nordic part of the Europe, which has had
relatively little known genetical or cultural change since the end of
the last ice-age, and thus IMHO likely retains the most archaic worlds
still in use in the whole Europe.

FromFinland posted 20 January 2016 - 04:47 PM

Ell, on 20 January 2016 - 10:59 AM, said:

Alfabet
is also the Dutch spelling. Generally the word is considered to be
composed of the names of the first two letters in the alphabet, so I
would not attach too much value to alfernas beten: it appears to be a
bit of folk etymology. And might 'beten' perchance be related to the
English 'bit' instead? Little bits of spoken or written language?

I agree with the folk etymology. Interestingly it's a Nordic variant of the international theme. Wikipedia shares the Greco-Roman view, my bolding:

Plutarch, in Moralia,
presents a discussion on why the letter alpha stands first in the
alphabet. Ammonius asks Plutarch what he, being a Boeotian, has to say
for Cadmus, the Phoenician who reputedly settled in Thebes and
introduced the alphabet to Greece, placing alpha first because it is the Phoenicianname for ox
— which, unlike Hesiod, the Phoenicians considered not the second or
third, but the first of all necessities. "Nothing at all," Plutarch
replied. He then added that he would rather be assisted by Lamprias, his
own grandfather, than by Dionysus' grandfather, i.e. Cadmus. For
Lamprias had said that the first articulate sound made is "alpha", because it is very plain and simple — the air coming off the mouth does not require any motion of the tongue — and therefore this is the first sound that children make.

In the Boxström saga, it's the A B C D ..., so it's the second sound after A. They make alfernas beten, and the word alfer ('elves') is said to come from alla fer, or 'all cattle' (fä
in modern Swedish). It's represented as heathen folk faith in a good
custodian spirit that takes care of the household and cattle, especially
during the winter time. So it's more or less the same cattle etymology
as the Phoenician ox etymology. Interestingly, the bi-lingual Boxström
saga also claims that first human being Frei (or Sampo
on Finnish) was able to speak primaeval Nordic language (of A B C D E F
...) naturally and genetically, and teached it to his sister Freia (or Aino in Finnish) at the age of seven years:

"The language of Sampo was based on the human's natural sounds, which are created at the brains of all human beings." (Bock 1996, page 17, my translation.)

So, the Boxström saga in this respect has also the Plutarch's take
included within it. It will be interesting to see what the Frisian take
is on the matter. While it's common nowadays to think the North
Europeans learned the current system from Latin of the Medieval
Christians, there's evidence for a similar writing system being used in Europe at far more older times.

German bitte (and English please) might be connected to beten, as it's polite and socially conforming to say so.

Tony S., on 20 January 2016 - 01:25 AM, said:

How do we envisage the lamp, or foddik, "hanging" in the tower, and the configuration of the tower itself and its six walls?

Not an exact match, but something a bit similar is found in the Boxström
saga, where the aesir royals had a very special kind of stone tower.
The first floor had five corners, second floor had six corners, third
floor had seven corners and so on. I believe this refers to the inside
corners and that the outside wall was apparently circular in this
legend. Allegedly remnants of this tower architecture can be seen also
in the towers of the later historical times, namely those of the
Raseborg and Olavinlinna castles. This odd fractal-like architecture is
claimed to be a superbly resilient structural form, so it would be
interesting to get a real construction engineers opinion on it. One
'bell-tower' is detailed as covered in white chalk and one other as
"golden", or covered by countless small gold sheets. All of these were
allegedly demolished in 1050 A.D., followed by sinking of the
construction stones to the nearby sea by the spring of 1051 A.D.

Posted 21 January 2016 - 09:36 AM

Van Gorp, on 21 January 2016 - 03:06 AM, said:

For me the consensus goes as far as Salt-Athe carries the litteral meaning of Salt and Friend...

Athe could be translated as friend, but in my opinion allie (bondgenoot) is more accurate and fit every where it is used.
There is at least one example where ATHA and FRJUNDA are both mentioned, indicating that the words had different meanings.

page 26, point 7
TILTHJU WI ÁTHA ÀND FRJUNDA WINNA
in order for us to win allies and friends

It is also noteworthy that besides SALTATHA the term WÉRAR (defenders)
is used. These people were not paid and seen as more honorable, since
they did not fight for money, but for their land and their folk.

Not all that many documents from before that, are there?
And it may have been one of various spoken names before it became the main written name.

Posted 24 January 2016 - 10:12 AM

Ell, on 20 January 2016 - 11:16 AM, said:

I
also wonder about the walls themselves: were they stone walls or wooden
walls? If stone, archaeological remains might be found. But I rather
suspect / feel that the walls were made from wood.

Page 206, line 1, about the Frya's Burgh at Texland, during the reign of king Askar, that is shortly before our year zero:

NACHTIS WRDON THA FÁMNA UT.ÉRE BURCH DRÍWEN
ÀND OGTIN.S KVN MÀN FON THÉRE BURCH ALLÉNA ÉNE GLANDERE HÁPE SJAN.At night the maidens were driven out of the burgh and in the morning only a glowing heap was left of it. (literally: ...one could only see a glowing heap of the burgh.)

So at least the main burgh was made of wood (and other materials that
burn or melt), even in the most recent of described (in OLB) times.
(Apollania's burgh in Ljudgárda was made of baked bricks.)

(...) Anyway, the argument that a lack of archaeological remains would disprove OLB's authenticity is invalid.

As I have pointed out before, there are historical sources of there
having been (in the 13th century) a castle of the Dutch counts in the
Westfrisian village where I grew up, yet no remains of it have ever been
found (so far). Oral tradition is (as far as I remember), that the
villagers had hated it so much, that they took it apart to the last
stone.

But as for the 'Fryan' burghs, other explanations are also possible.

Posted 24 January 2016 - 09:43 PM

BTW Tony, I have seen many JOL-like windows in Friesland, for example this former church in Pingjum:

FromFinland posted 26 January 2016 - 10:38 AM

Tony S., on 25 January 2016 - 11:01 PM, said:

Given
that the tower is 90 feet tall, which is only slightly more than twice
42, we should not be imagining a tall, thin tower at all, but actually a
rather low, wide one. If the sides were more than 21 feet wide (they
cannot possibly be less, given the position of the attached houses),
this wideness is increased still further.

As for the holy fire of Van Gorp and Passing Time, let's see what
Austro-Hungarian officer Karl Maria Wiligut (1866-1946) had to say on
his family traditions, writing in 1935:

The institution of girls' schools developed out of the extremely ancient "Modranekth."2 [2
"society of maidens"] [...] So, for example, it came about that virgins
who were chosen as BURGMAIDENS had to conform special conditions. [...]

The corps of maidens
was organized in four groups, which are: The lowest group, the HEXAS
[witches], had as their duty the care and preservation of the eternal
flame and its kindling for purposes of signaling (by day with smoke, by
night with a bright flame)[*]. Fire was fetched from these women as a
part of certain ceremonies or ritual (Ara-Ryta] for the lighting the
hearth-fire of newly married couples. As a part of land-taking or new
settlement ceremonies, or when perhaps the hearth-fire had gone out,
fire was kindled from live coals from these eternal fires. The Hexas
were initiated into herbology in some tribes and communities in addition
to their service relevan to the fire. [...]

From this presentation of the basic division of the Maidenschaft
it is clear what a deep meaning the position of women had in past
times. In the clan she was the protector and irector of honor of men as
well as women. In the tribe she was the representative of high
idealistic flights of thought and the kindler of enthuasism for great
aims in the interest of the tribe and folk. [...]

Closely connected to
the cosmos, to the All and to God, and reflecting the rhytmic lwas of
these in her soul, she was the bearer of the whole of our tradition in
our prehistoric past. It was with this understanding that the education
of the female youth was designed. [The Secret King, translated by Stephen Flowers, 2001.]

* Such signaling reminds not only of the beacon ligh houses for the
sailors, but also of the Finnish hill fort system, where they were
situated according to archeologists so that they could alarm each other
by signal fire and smoke. This is seen in the story of Norwegian Saint Olaf, where he attacks Finnish coast called Balegard (as in English 'balefire' or Finnish palo 'fire'),
yet the heathen Finns succesfully evade him by withdrawing to inland,
and then after amassing their own forces make a counter-attack. This all
means that they likely had a foreknowledge of the impeding raid, as the
counter actions had been systematic and not haphazard or random in
style. Thus also the Wiligut story of signal fire makes sense in the
North European cultural context.

Apol said:

In
fact, I tend to believe that the Lamp must have been something like the
ancient so-called 'julleuchters', which have been found in different
places in Northern Europe

I don't know about you Scandinavians, but here in Finland we have this thing called joululyhty. In
the primary school we all children made ones. While they nowadays are
any lamps with small candles inside, the iconography of the German julleuchter (hearts, wheels, zigzag) is well known from folk wood art of all Nordic nations, including ours.

Posted 26 January 2016 - 07:46 PM

Tony S., on 26 January 2016 - 06:48 PM, said:

Do you have other quotes from any of his contemporaries that reference the OLB?

A well known contemporary referred to Wralda (quoted in various
spellings) on several occasions (translated from German and selfsensored
to avoid ban):

"Who observes and understands the process of selection
in nature, is at the core a believer (in a higher power). He is a
believer, because he knows there is an endlessly wise sovereignty above
us. The ancient Germans had a beautiful expression for that: Waralda; the most ancient." (date unknown)

"Atheism is the only world, or religious view that is
not tolerated within the [censored] [...] I have not tolerated an
atheist in the ranks of the [censored]. Every member has a deep faith in
God, in what my ancestors called in their language Waralda, the ancient one, the one who is mightier than we are." (date unknown)

(1942): "Today at [censored] funeral I intentionally
expressed in my oration from my deepest conviction a belief in God, a
belief in fate, in the ancient one as I called him - that is the old Germanic word: Wralda."

(1943): "... above us is an infinite wisdom. The Teutons had a beautiful expression for it: Waralda, the ancient. We may dispute how it can be revered and how in earthly terms it can be broken down into cults and varieties."

(1945): "The Most-Ancient ("Uralte") will protect us and particularly the brave/ good German people, and not let us perish."

FromFinland posted 26 January 2016 - 09:12 PM

Tony S., on 26 January 2016 - 06:48 PM, said:

Do you have other quotes from any of his contemporaries that reference the OLB?

No, unfortunately. Have you read Stephen Flower's English translation
published in 2001? If you have not, please do. In my humble opinion, OLB
addicts out here should check the Wiligut stuff, too!

While the Wiligut stuff has thematic similarities to OLB, the
overwhelming majority of the content is very different in nature. Same
words more or less describe also the link between the Wiligut and
Boxström family sagas: similar, but not an exact match. There is a very
good reason to believe, that at least the connection between the two
later sources may not have been due to purposeful copying, for there
existed a significant time gap of 17 years between their availability
here in Finland. And frankly, I doubt that the Wiligut stuff was much
known before the 2000s or Internet in the West Europe, either. While the
name and personality of mr. Wiligut perhaps were, along with the
Wewelsburg castle, the pre-historic contents of his writings and
articles do not seem to have been well known at all.

Posted 26 January 2016 - 09:15 PM

Tony S., on 26 January 2016 - 07:59 PM, said:

... what else do we know about him that justifies the assertion that is sometimes given that the OLB was his "bible"?

At least that
1) he had the OLB secretely researched until 1943 and
2) that in 1942 he had planned to have a splendor-edition made to give
to his "leader" as a present, but this was cancelled after the latter
had made a speech that was not favorable of things related to Atlantis
research.
(I can be more specific tomorrow, when I am in my library.)

A German emeritus scholar who collected almost all there is to collect
about this, offered to share his sources with me, but I won't have time
to indulge in them in the near future.

I also know now that one of the main reasons to publicly reject OLB as
authentic in '34 was, that it was politically inconvenient, because it
would suggest that "Slavic" peoples had already since ancient times
lived in areas that they wanted to claim for Germanics. This would have
been enough reason to delay admitting authenticity till after the war.

FromFinland posted 26 January 2016 - 09:41 PM

I'm aware of this anonymous "leader" having made a public speech where
he riciduled all those looking for ancient Germanic things for guidance.
To my knowledge, this "leader" was of a future-oriented type, and for
him the ancient pre-history had been a springboard to modern times, not a
great thing in itself. He for example considered the Greco-Roman
influence in the arts an integral part of modern European identity,
which could indeed be seen very well in the WW2 architecture of the
"must-not-be-named"-land.

Passing Time, on 26 January 2016 - 10:07 PM, said:

have you got a title for the wiligut book/s , and are they available in english?

As per the page 99, mr. Wiligut claimed that his family story were
allegedly carved in wooden boards in "linear script", which along with
other family documents perished in a 1848 fire in Ofen, or Buda today.

Some parts of the Wiligut story seem to be influenced Christian and
later historical times, which I also myself see in the the Boxtröm
family saga. This is not at all odd, for Germanic Christianity has roots stretching to the antiquity.
The 2001 book is important also for the 1997 interview of the Gabriele
Winkler-Dechend, which it contains. Lady Winkler-Dechend (1908-?) knew
mr. Wiligut personally and in addition to providing some additional
information also shoots down some unfounded rumours, such as that mr.
Wiligut allegedly had some parapsychological abilities.

Also this is a good place to inform the English readeship here, that Ior
Bock of the Boxström saga fame was asked in 2010 whether he was aware
of the Wiligut story, for it contains few peculiar similarities. The answer was no, which is to my mind believable, based on what we know both of mr. Bock's reading habits and his interests in general.

FromFinland posted 27 January 2016 - 04:16 PM

Tony S., on 27 January 2016 - 02:06 PM, said:

The Gutones were almost certainly the Jutes, of Jutland, and jute is
another word for amber. The Jutes, of course, are called the Juttar in
the OLB. They later migrated to England and settled in Kent, Hampshire
and the Isle of Wight.

In traditional Finnish, juutti means 'a Dane'. Pages 53-54 of J.R.R. Tolkien's Finn and Hengest (HarperCollins 1990) tell it could be also written eotena or eoten. Kristfrid Ganander, writing in 1789, has the Joter refer to Finns of the olden days. For more information, please see Fornjót, Oium, Reidgotaland, Jordanes and - interestingly - Gutians.

Tony S. said:

please feel free to have a look at my website in my sig

Tony, your website has been helpful for me when I study the OLB. I like
very much that you have not only put up the text online over there, but
have also put some though on the visuals (maps, fonts, colours) as
well. Its great we have not just one, but many sites (yours, Apol's,
Othar's, Abramelin's) that look at OLB from different points of view.
And if one of them goes offline for reason or another, we still have the
information available on somebody's website. Unfortunately this is not
at all the case with many other sources.

I have this pipe dream, that maybe someday we Europeans would have one website portal to a database, that would include all
such sources plus Tacitus, Caesar, Monmouth, sagas etc. in an easy to
use web interface, where one could see the original and the English
translations side by side. This would be of great help for students,
hobbyists, professional researchers and all. It would also include such
texts that may or may not be modern fabrications (like Hrafnagaldur Ódins, Book of Veles, Kolbrin bible etc.),
for one man's forgery is another's Bible, and we should not limit
information flow, just because of what we think to be authentic. The
largest obstacles is see now are possible copyright issues, which is a
shame as in the old European culture sharing is caring was very much the normal attitude in research and studies.

Apol posted 27 January 2016 - 04:19 PM
Here is a corrected map of the burg of Ljudgârda:

Posted 27 January 2016 - 04:31 PM

FromFinland, on 27 January 2016 - 04:16 PM, said:

The largest obstacles is see now are possible copyright issues, which is a shame as in the old European culture sharing is caring was very much the normal attitude in research and studies.

Indeed, in a healthy culture, where honor is valued higher than material
possessions, it would be no obstacle. If many people like someones work
so much, that they make use of it, this raises his honor and increases
his immortality.

Posted 30 January 2016 - 05:22 PM

Tony S., on 28 January 2016 - 11:33 PM, said:

Wewelsburg, Westphalia, Germany...

I actually only live a 1,5 hour drive from it and have passed by a few times, driving between my homeland and current home.
But the presumption that the place will have been fully hijacked by the invaders, kept me from visiting the site.
Interesting material indeed, Tony, this and what you PM'ed me.
It stimulates me to dive deeper into it as well.

Posted 30 January 2016 - 08:01 PM

Tony S., on 30 January 2016 - 05:51 PM, said:

It
would be very interesting if you could visit the castle one day,
perhaps taking some photos and describing your impressions. I don't know
what might still be found there, but at least we now have a better idea
of what we're looking for than any previous investigator. Symbols,
carvings, inscriptions, anything really.

suche / zoek / soek / sök / søk / søg / seek/ sykje

F R Y A ~ S K É D N I S E

the early speech of our fore-fathers

"The pure Friesic and easy wording of the Oera Linda Book must be most welcome to students of English and Saxon, as a widening of the now too narrow ground of the early speech of our fore-fathers." Wm. Barnes. Macmillan's Magazine,April 1877, p. 465.

Video Studies

Cornelis Over de Linden (1811-1874) Den Helder

Eelco Verwijs (1830-1880)

first scholar who studied the manuscript and confirmed its authenticity (1867) - later he withdrew this conclusion, probably to save his career

Jan Ottema (1804-1879) Leeuwarden

first translator and publisher of the 'Oera Linda Bok' (1872 & 1876)

the oldest production of European literature

"We may thus accept that we possess in this manuscript, of which the first part was composed in the sixth century before our era, the oldest production, after Homer and Hesiod, of European literature. And here we find in our fatherland a very ancient people in possession of development, civilisation, industry, navigation, commerce, literature, and pure elevated ideas of religion, whose existence we had never even conjectured."Dr. J.G. Ottema, 1871 (translation Sandbach)