About the statistics thing ... *sigh* You're right.
Can't say I didn't try though. ^_^
Respectively perfected styles do provide more light of certain things. But I can't agree that above average well-roundedness isn't an accomplishment. Single talented-ness gets too familiar after a while, to me. I'm at the point now where I'm tired of an annoyingly large amount of music that I listen to. And as you complimented me on, I have good taste, and listen to TONS of music. Pretty much everything, above and below the surface. It's just because a lot of artists can only deliver in or two ways with any sort of effectiveness. I'm wanting more; And now, that "more" is manifesting itself in the form of multi-talented individuals and artists, like Lupe.
And yeah, I know what the music hunt is like. I find a new artist I like every day. But there are only so many sounds that one venue of communication can have though. That's been my criticism of these "artists who perfect their respective styles" throughout this entire argument. They get old, faster.
As far as Lupe winning by default because he's different; well that brings us back to my belief in you thinking he's sub-par at certain things. That because there is no one to compare him to, then there's a possibility that he might suck, which just isn't true.
I've been comparing him to a lot of specialty rappers. He's better than a lot of dudes at what they specialize in. But the thing is that he's like that across the board. Maybe not Thee best at everything, but mad competition nonetheless.
Do you see my point?
That's why he's special. I'm not putting him in a class of his own because he is the only one of his kind. I'm putting him in his class because he's one of Many kinds, and pretty darn good at most of them.

Hip-Hop isn't based on statistics. So no, Lupe is not the Kobe of the Hip-Hop world. There isn't some factual evidence we can reference when we compare artists, to say who's better.
Anyways, I think the term "Quality > Quantity" comes into play for me here. Lupe definitely does many things, I just rather listen to a bunch of different artists who perfect their respective styles, rather then 1 artist who is decent at all of them.
And I love all kinds of music, which is why I don't mind the "inconvenience", I guess you can call it, of searching out other artists who do different things exceptionally, rather than just settling for 1 artist to simply meet my minimal requirements.
But I do believe a lot of people like Lupe simply for the reason they haven't heard many like him. Most rappers don't touch on a lot the topics he does so, there really isn't anything to compare the quality of his music to. Therefore, even if it was complete shit, it wouldn't matter because compared to everything similar (Which, there is none), it is the best out. Transformers would be a masterpiece, classic of cinema if it was the first movie ever made.
Anyways, emotion is hardly the only reason I listen to music, I just don't excuse Lupe's flaws, or try to pretend they don't exist. He's far from a perfect artist. Which is why I try not to get into convo's with fans of specific artists, because they feel they have to defend any criticism of them, and believe they must explain to everyone why he's "the best" or better than everyone, to justify them being a fan I suppose.
And no offense, I don't go for all that "Left brain / Right Brain" crap to excuse, criticize or praise an

Lupe is the epitome of both (relevant) Intelligence and Imagination. I take care of the emotion myself.
That's why he's impressive. That's why he's one of the best of all time to me.
He's like the semi-polymath of Hip Hop.
You don't just act as if that means nothing.
It's like, you may not like Kobe, but he's the best in the game right now whether you like him or not. Period. Personal preference doesn't take that away from him.
Lupe is the Kobe of the Hip Hop world.

@ NINJA
For me, Lupe is just something I've never heard before, and don't hear from anyone else.
Not like you're curious, but here's why I listen to Lupe ::
-Vastest set of the most accurately utilized metaphors and references of any rapper ever. IMO.
-Best (logical) personification / reverse-personification rapper ever. Stays on topic all while also.
-Best, to me, at carrying a large number of different things through an entire track allowing each to surface, relate, and then resurface, all while amidst the other elements.
-Massive arsenal of diverse flows, rhyme schemes, and wordplay. Top tier for sure.
-Socially conscious, considerate and positive over-all, yet not corny or cliche.
-Has been on the other side of his own hustle before. Was good at rapping about that too...
-Is very simultaneous; which is his "Wow!" factor. It's not only "How did he do that!?", but more like, "How did he do that ALL AT THE SAME TIME?!?"
So yeah, I like him for all the cerebral stuff. Not because I want to feel smarter, but because it's the other end of the spectrum; it's an extreme.
Personally, anyone who can do something that no one else can do (within reason), and be pretty good at a lot of other things, well that person needs to be recognized.
Right & Left Brain Lyricism = Lupe. Period. It's crazy to act like he's not great.
I guess I'm just not so impressed with emotional stuff is because that's not the only reason I listen to music. I allow music to affect me in every way that it possibly can. Evoking emotion is one. Taking me on an entirely sane, yet skillfully insane mental quest, all while staying within one realm of intention is another.
And to me, both are on the same echelon.
Not like this is how I literally think about music, but there's ::
Intelligence
Imagination
Emotion
Like you said, there are rappers that can do certain things better individually. But none can do them simultaneously at the level that Lupe can. No one's even close.

I'm not much a fan of Pac.
And as for Lupe being a legend or competing with other legends, I don't think that's possible at this point. Not only because I never use that term, but also cause someone that high of stature in music, for me, would ONLY be there because of the Music itself.
I'm not a big fan of potential, Lyricism and and all that only goes so far. I am a fan of the final product. I'm not so much a fan of artists and rappers, as I am of music itself. Which means, my favorite artists are my favorite artists because they have released many albums/ lots of music that I enjoy a lot. Not because they appeal to the pseudo-intellectual inside me, but because they've done remarkable things with the music they created.
Lupe hasn't made an album I even consider "Great" yet. Both his albums are just short, and I like his mix tapes a lot, but when compared to cohesive works like albums they can't really compete. Plus, again, because very little of his stuff really touches me. I think he's a clever artist, who has dope wordplay, covers a lot of themes and concepts etc, but his music doesn't appeal to me like a lot of my favorite artists.
He's well rounded, and he's pretty consistently "Good" I'd say. But when it comes down to it, I don't like judging rappers, so much as I enjoy a good album, or cohesive piece of material. So I'd take an artist who can just make music I can vibe to, over an artist who merely impresses me with his complexity, any day. And more so than that, I'd take an artist who blends vibe, atmosphere, delivery, wisdom and all these things into his/her work.

And just one more thing.
I was conversing with someone once about Hip Hop, naturally Lupe came up. Tupac was brought up too. Apparently, I had the audacity to suggest that Pac was amazingly over-rated; went on to say that I preferred Lupe. Went even further to say that it would be shame for Lupe to not go down in history as one of the best ever, because he's one of, if not the most brilliant dually cerebral and imaginative rappers of all time.
My co-conversationalist responded by saying ::
Lupe = Epitome of the Mind
Tupac = Epitome of the Heart
Pac wins.
Thoughts?

@ NINJA
Agreed.
Let's go in a different direction, finally. ^_^
I have a couple of questions I've been wanting to ask you. If you don't mind my asking.
*Why do you personally listen to Lupe?
*Which elite qualities or talents Does Lupe have, IYO?
*What single trait do you believe could be added to Lupe''s arsenal in order to establish him as an undeniable legend in Hip Hop? If any.
*Void of legacies, hype from having died, classic albums, production, all that extra stuff, If we're looking at an artist solely for their ability with words and all that they can "do" with them ~ Which artists are, IYO ,"better" than Lupe?
Just curious.

The consideration difficult for most people? Not even remotely. It all just comes back to Lupe's inability to properly express his theme in certain cases.
It'd be hard to be considerate to someone who says "These starving kids in Africa are like giraffes, they must be properly nourished our they'll die. Help contribute and keep the giraffes alive."
So what, people are too lazy to derive an emotional response?
It's an artists job to express their ideas fully in such a case. Otherwise it's just an incomplete work. In which case that's the artists fault, not the listeners.
Leaving the emotion up to the listener is like leaving the story up to the listener. Imagine a freakin 3 minute track with a beat and a guy crying, but no words... Sure if people were "considerate" enough they'd feel sorry for the guy, but realistically speaking, without knowing why he's crying, there's only so much sympathy you can have.
It's the same with having a story or words, but no personality. I can only feel so bad for some douche bag I hate, or for some random person I'm not familiar with, until I really get to know them, at which point, sure if there's something wrong I'm gonna feel for them.
Joe the hobo gets ran over by a car and I'm possibly shocked and concerned. My mother gets hit by a car and it's got a completely different impact on me.
So in no way am I saying these tracks don't have SOME impact on me. I can certainly sympathize with these scenarios TO AN EXTENT. But not to the extent I can with other, better expressed imo, works.
I hardly listen to Gotta Eat and feel the threat of greasy food is a danger to me. And I hardly feel really sorry for child soldiers by listening to Little Weapon.
There are other works that peak my interest in the subject to a much higher extent. Lupe's tracks just aren't them. and that alone tells me it's not that i don't have compassion, it's just those songs aren't doing the best job.

@ NINJA
You're repeating yourself because you haven't been responding to what I've been saying. You've been picking out bits and pieces that lead us back to something you've already said. But the only reason why you're even able to do that is because I've been RESPONDING TO YOU. You're leading yourself in circles. But I said this earlier...
I never said he was the best at all he did, just really good.
It's not so much the difficulty, but the consideration. The consideration is what's difficult for most people. And that consideration is commendable.
You keep insinuating that for the most part people take away a sense of intellectual pride from Lupe's complexity, which is false. I haven't been saying Lupe's complexity is good for your IQ, and that IQ music is better. I've been saying that PEOPLE ARE TOO LAZY TO LISTEN and then derive an emotional response other than the one portrayed by the artist.
It goes back to the "Make your own Plate!" reference I made earlier.
Some chefs make the food, and then make your plate for you.
Others make the food and let you choose what you want to eat. That particular meal is all there, and everything can be eaten. But he's just not going to make you eat what he puts on your plate. You have the freedom of making your own plate. You're still bound to what was made and how it was made, but the freedom is there.
Lupe is the latter, metaphorically.
It doesn't make for less because it's not one specific way. Direct, personal narration grants a single option.
You asked which is better, engagement or technical difficulty.
Well, it's not that black and white. And Lupe certainly isn't solely a technically skilled rapper.
Like I said, the emotion is there. You just have to put yourself in another person's shoes, instead of having someone else put you in their shoes, or simply having someone else tell you about your own shoes.
You're taking my literal words at face value and not thinking about what I'm actually saying.
Not cool.

"It really does seem like you're saying Lupe doesn't do a that good of a job at what he does do though, which IMO, isn't true."
no, I'm just saying that, he isn't the best at them. There are others that execute these things better. So he is good, but he doesn't really f*** with the best in any aspect.
And here is why our opinions probably differ so much...
"it's because what he does is factually and psychologically more difficult"
I don't care how difficult something is, especially when it comes to music. Making things overly complicated doesn't mean they are better, it just means they are harder to understand. Which again, if you want to feel smart about learning something, instead of just taking something away from the music, then I'm sure one would be all for that.
It's harder to rap while holding your tongue and spitting everything backwards, that doesn't translate to a better quality of music though, especially in specific setting, and certainly not to getting your point across more effectively. Again, if the track is all word play and novelty and what not that's all cool, all the better.
"ANYONE can talk about their self. Even if it is emotional, it's nothing special.
NOT EVERYONE is even open-minded enough to understand what other people are seeing and feeling, let alone express or articulate any of it."
I don't know how this even came up? Most rappers that I'm referring to do just as good of jobs relating other points of views as well as their own. Still though, I don't think one could possibly give as deep of narration on something they aren't personally familiar with, as something they have experienced, or something that hits close to home. But this leads back to the "difficulty" factor. What's better, something more engaging, or something more technically "impressive".
Eh, but I feel like I've been repeating too much already this convo. No sense is re-iterating my points repeatedly.

@ NINJA
Yeah, I kinda saw that from the jump, but I wanted to give you more time to explain yourself.
It really does seem like you're saying Lupe doesn't do a that good of a job at what he does do though, which IMO, isn't true.
I never said that Lupe's third-person story-telling was as emotional as any legitimately executed first person tracks. I've simply been pushing the near-fact that Lupe does what he does well enough for it to really not be an issue that he isn't a "first person rapper".
And when I said he's more impressive, it's because what he does is factually and psychologically more difficult, which is commendable from a stance of generosity and understanding.
ANYONE can talk about theirself. Even if it is emotional, it's nothing special.
NOT EVERYONE is even open-minded enough to understand what other people are seeing and feeling, let alone express or articulate any of it.
In ALL of those songs you listed, there is a solid vantage point from which a scenario is being told.
A vantage point grants perspective.
Perspective grants an understanding.
Understanding grants the opportunity to react.
Reactions are acted upon emotions.
But people want the emotion up front, all the time. They're going off of presentation over product. They aren't LISTENING. That's the issue with mainstream media. As long as something can sound good, it doesn't matter what it is, they'll listen to it. Because of HOW IT IS, not WHAT IT IS. And that is severely closed-minded.
The same goes for emotion. Just because a situation isn't delivered with emotional precision doesn't mean there is less emotional value.
Lupe doesn't give bad presentations of a great product. He's not monotone or carelessly demeaning of anything he speaks on. He gives good presentations of great products.
Where he lacks first hand experience, he makes up for with vivid portrayals. And WELL.
Like I said, I see your point. But you're being closed-minded, which really isn't a viewpoint worth defending.

I should add too,l I think it partially has to do with his production, and hooks and other song writing aspects as to why his tracks don't have as strong an impact. I think dude is a nice rapper, but he's a flawed artist, and makes flawed music. (I can't even recall off the top of my head a decent hook by the guy. I'd really have to pull up my media player and read through the list)

A lot of songs, especially those on his albums like
Little Weapon
Gotta Eat
Sunshine
Just Might Be Ok
Intruder Alert
Most of the "The Cool" concept tracks
Heck honestly, the only tracks on his albums that I would say have a real connect like, Hurt Me Soul, He Say She Say (Which I thought could have been better), and maybe like Kick Push II. possibly Hip-Hop Saved My life, though I didn't think that song was all that great either.
Definitely only a limited few that come close to the level of expression of something like "All For You" by Little brother or "Cold Hearted" by Blu. And the other guy said it right, it doesn't have to be about the artist for it to work. Quite a few tracks not about the artist specifically work, Brenda's Got A Baby included. It doesn't have to be about that person, for it to be personal, or there to be that personal attachment.
The connect isn't just with the listener and the music, it's also with the music and the artist (Which a listener should be able to hear in the music). You don't have to be in love with History, students, or teaching to teach a history class in school. But you can definitely tell when a teacher truly loves what their doing, or has that personal attachment to their work.
But hell, even Lupe's actual personal tracks like "Fighters" don't compete with other great personal tracks imo.
And I disagree with:
"Lupe's ability to literally BE anybody in any situation is remarkable. Period.
MUCH more so that someone's ability to tell you about themself."
"BEing" someone is much more then talking in first person. And none of Lupe's concept/themed tracks even come close to expressing the level of personality or emotion in the characters he's pretending to be, like so many great tracks with artists "talking about themselves".
I dunno, I guess I'm just less impressed with this aspect of Lupe then you guys seem to be.

DATKID, you described what I've been trying to say perfectly.
I ain't trying to hear about one nigga all the damn time neither. Isht gets old. One person can only go through so much.
Lupe's ability to literally BE anybody in any situation is remarkable. Period.
MUCH more so that someone's ability to tell you about themself.
I really don't want Lupe to be like that one person who always finds a way to make everything about them. AS IF!
@TW89
Yeah, Lupe's already said Lasers will be a concept album. Just not so literal.
"Lasers" = nerdy yet interesting spin on "Losers"
He's prolly gonna put is in "that one kid"s shoes. Should be dope.
Unless you were "popular" in high school or some anti-climactic, meaningless isht like that, you should be able to relate...

@ NINJA
Not to sound forward, but I really don't appreciate how you're focusing on small portions of what I've been trying to say and then taking them all the way to the extreme.
Regardless of how you're looking at what I said, I never even hinted at Lupe draining all emotional context out of his subject matter, only leaving us with a setting.
*Lupe rap's from other peoples' points of view a lot, whether it be a real person or a cheeseburger. He never simply describes a situation without a main character's vantage point; and to say that he does, which you did here...
NINJA :: "I can describe the trashy looking vacant home down the way, and tell you there's some poor people living there. Then you can apply any back story you want to the situation.
^ That's what Lupe does. And it lacks personality."
Well, it's simply not true.
Yes, yes, you are right that it is quite "disconnected", but most everything is still there. Just not the cracking in the voice and randomly elevated syllables.
But then again... The Cool was full of Lupe literally taking the role of different things and themes.
So was Food and Liquor...
Wait, NINJA what the hell are you even talking about?! I've NEVER been like "Wow, Lupe is just so far away from the emotion in this song."
Sure, since he lends himself to other people's situation form time to time, he may not have that experiential capacity, but he makes up for that with spaciously and vividly descriptive lyrics, which is the next best thing. Like I said, people need to learn how to use their imagination instead of always demanding that things be so direct. It's so young-minded and dependent.
*"Got-dammit, All The Food Is Right There! MAKE YOUR OWN FRIGGIN PLATE!! lol
But seriously, I guess I just need you to post an example of this great disconnection you've been experiencing.

Although if any song is like this then its cool: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uyl3xGL0Rg
"I fell back to earth where electric sheep feed on the astro turf
I surf the network, and my skin turns silver"

I have no problem with Creativity and Imagination, they just have to be put to use in the proper situation. And I'm not even saying I don't like Lupe's metaphorical tracks or anything like that, I do think they are clever as hell. And a different approach no doubt.
I just don't think Lupe is > every other rapper in every category because he does things differently. Cause in certain circumstances, his method isn't the greatest to employ. It's not bad... It's just not always the MOST appropriate.

So what we learned was... Lupe can describe a setting well...
I can describe the trashy looking vacant home down the way, and tell you there's some poor people living there. Then you can apply any back story you want to the situation.
^ That's what Lupe does. And it lacks personality.
Or I can tell you a story about an elderly homeless man I once had a conversation with, and how he told me about all the s*** he's been through in his life.
^ That is what rappers I like do
Unless you are personally living something to be able to put a description into context, the only other way to truly appreciate certain circumstances is to live it through some one else's eyes.
I've never fought in the Vietnam War... and I can read a text book about it, or listen to a fictional story set in it, but I'm not truly going to understand what it's like unless I've been there, or I can gain somewhat of a better understanding if someone who fought in it talked with me about his experiences.
Of course, Lupe could make a track about it, a likening it to a cheeseburger... But that is truly the definition of "Disconnected" to me. It just lacks personality.

It's like...
*Personal and Raw = One, Maybe two meanings and ways to look at something.
*More impersonal with tweaked imagery = Limitless interpretation with only a situation as the guide.
Freedom is a great thing.

@ NINJA
I see what you're saying.
And following your point, I'm posed with this question ::
What is it exactly that Lupe does?
To me, he uses... passive personification.
But, but... to me that isn't a disconnect.
Call me crazy, but I don't need an artist to literally generate the emotion for me. I don't necessarily need to feel that they are pouring themselves on the track in an emotional sense for me to feel the emotion myself.
For me, Lupe laces a situation, (imagery, metaphors & personification, all that) ultimately leaving me with a roster of things I could interpret; intentionally. To me, it's not unorganized jibberish, just vastly considerate and applicable subject matter that doesn't force itself on you in any single and particular way.
That's just my intake. Sorry to reiterate, but I just don't need an artist's literal emotion for a song me to understand or appreciate the emotional context. Because it Is there, just not in it's rawest, "This is exactly what happened and How I felt about it" form. Lupe's much more flexible than that.
I don't know. To me, being able to relay a raw situation isn't difficult or amazing. It's potentially boring. Emotional and able to be greatly appreciated yes, but such leads to regurgitation of the same types of emotions and perceptions, leaving no room for creativity.
That's what I like about Lupe. He makes This = That. You just have to use your imagination; something way too many people don't have nowadays...
*Summarily :: Intelligence + Imagination + Emotional subject matter (void potentially guiding and limiting personal emotion) = Lupe
*Not to say personal stuff is bad; But a world where I'm being forced to see things through others people's eyes only All the time IS the definition of limitation.
IMO.

It has nothing to do with him talking about other people. Tons of rappers do story telling tracks and reference other people, and I can still feel and connect with them. I think Prophecy said it best, Lupe treats everything as a project. I swear I'm just reading a Wikipedia article every time I listen to one of his themed or concept songs. It feels like the dude just read a text book on something, and decided to make a track about it.
Lupe being personal doesn't have to do with him talking about himself. But for most rapper, and this is also a reason why they aren't talking about a whole lot of s*** around the world and stuff they don't really know of, but most rappers stick to things that they've had experience with, and has effected them emotionally, so when they put it in song (and depending how good of a "lyricist" they are to express it) you can feel exactly what they are talking about.
When Lupe talks about s***, it's metaphors and references and all that, but there really isn't any emotion. So sure I have to "decipher" what the hell he's saying, but then that leads me back to one of my original points, that it ends up being novelty. Instead of me vibing to a track, or being inspired by something, I just get more of Lupe's "cleverness". Dude could be talking about a mother murdering her child to f***in... save it from being tortured and humiliated or some crazy emotional s*** like that, and you would still be smiling because you "finally figured out what he was talking about, and it was so smart".
I dunno, maybe that is just the intellectual person with no souls definition of emotion lool. It's gotta be coded so that when they finally get the message (and it's lost all its impact) they can feel smart.

@ AREJAE
I agree with you whole-heartedly.
This has actually been my understanding of Lupe ever since I started listening to him.
*He just doesn't talk about himself much. He is a person of the people, for the people. Not a single person, only accessible to those with a similar story to his own. Which I find impressive, and slightly more commendable.
But over time, people have resorted to calling any higher interpretation of anything that transcends beyond an initial reaction, (which is actually necessary with Lupe anyway), pompous...
So pretty much, my attempts to decode Lupe for people that don't give him a chance make me look asinine, and Lupe look exaggerated or excessive.
Sad.
But like you said, none of this is a bad thing. Lupe's just ahead of his time. Hopefully people will catch up.
*Actually... Fugg it, I would even go as far as to call those who refuse to listen to Lupe's depiction of OTHER PEOPLE'S STORIES (that may not directly correlate to their own) selfish. ~ "Oh, he's not talking about himself, and I can't get into this other person's story. Lupe you're so passive!"
Yeah, sounds kinda selfish to me...

Lupe Fiasco is not like other rappers. So there for he doesn't use the same formula another rapper would use. The only other rapper I've heard that I had to actually research words to understand the lyrics is Aesop Rock. Crazy lyrics. I think that emotional connection is in his word play. You have to really research his lyrics and let it travel in your head to feel it. The problem is hardly anyone will do research to understand the deeper meaning in lyrics. That's the only problem i see in what he does and it's not necessarily a bad thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0SuQrUcytU best lupe song ever. i remember back then, i heard this song once on some background music, and then i was searchin for this for such a long time, and when i found it it became my favourite song

it sucks cuz I almost feel like its too late for him to do that personal shit, because that is what rappers do on the first album, their debut, which is why most rappers best(or close to it) albums are their first(college dropout, bth, illmatic,reasonable doubt) cause thats when they're the most real, have nothing to lose, and can let it all out. Once they get on to their 2nd, 3rd, and 4th album they know have fans, critics, and other artists to impress, not to mention having to keep their label happy with sales which leads to more commercial friendly songs. Saying this I already feel Lasers is going to be an amazing album but its still going to missing that one thing as a whole. Lasers will be Lupe's most feature friendly album yet.
some songs that actually give me that 'personal' feeling is hurt me soul, coming where from where im from, coulda been, theme music to a drive by, and even say and he gets the girl.

And yes, definitely impersonal. And yeh he can "tell a story" and spit a bunch of facts but, even more rarely do I feel he ever sets a true scene, has the proper atmosphere, or really makes me feel what he's talking about.
Also has to do with his delivery too though, which I don't personally think is so hot.