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Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

Well I know that the Korean Strats have revolved around a very coordinated system of lane switching that's bled over to NA teams a little bit, with some addition of aggressive early game tower taking.

The only strats I picked up from WE last night was a small amount of lane switching combined with some tricky early jungle invades and their late game Corki jungle farming.

Whereas obviously CLG.EU's strat has been super late game non-engaging farm fest, coupled with tons of stalling.

The way I see it all of these strategies need the kind of teamwork that isn't welcome in a game with randoms. The current lane-meta and favorite characters aren't going to change as a result of these matches as far as I can see, with the exception of maybe increased Maokai usage.

The only other thing I've seen is the usage of more aggressive AD-top laners (less bruiser), but I feel like Dyrus kinda popularized that with Kayle a while ago.

Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

I personally prefer CLG.eu's play style more, but there's no way you'll see stuff like that in your average solo queue match. One of the reasons the meta has likely stayed this long is ease of use for 5 random players to throw together a comp in a couple minutes. Any sort of replacement meta for the masses will need to be relatively simple to take any sort of hold.

Semi-ninja'd.

Last edited by Chess435; 2012-10-07 at 05:28 PM.

^~Cody T.~^

"I see now that the circumstances of one's birth are irrelevant; it is what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are." - Mewtwo

Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

What does that even mean?

There's nothing "wrong" with "the NA meta," and I don't think that it's particularly stagnant. That's actually kind of a funny thing to say considering that the only two teams who employed particularly "cheesy" tactics, so to speak, that diverged from the current meta were CLG NA and Dignitas. Teams like TSM and Curse actually play strategies that are quite similar to those of teams like M5 and Fnatic. It's not just some "NA meta" that caused the continent to get knocked out.

NA had a bad showing because NA has ****ty teams. CLG and Dig have had huge setbacks within the last year (the voyboy/crumbz/saintvicious teamswap was really only a win for Curse, in my opinion. Dignitas came out the worst for it) and neither have entirely come back from them. TSM made bad picks and got outplayed. The TSM vs Frost games were actually pretty enjoyable, and while TSM lost both I don't feel like they were "stomped" in anyway. They demonstrated that their teamfighting prowess is still some of the best in the world, but I felt like their picks, bans, and coordination in lane kind of left something to be desired. I still don't understand why Dyrus picked Darius into Jayce after Regi had already picked Karthus. I mean, come on. Kayle was open.

Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

Originally Posted by aethernox

There's nothing "wrong" with "the NA meta," and I don't think that it's particularly stagnant. That's actually kind of a funny thing to say considering that the only two teams who employed particularly "cheesy" tactics, so to speak, that diverged from the current meta were CLG NA and Dignitas.

I just feel the current meta (top bruiser, AP mage mid, vaguely tanky jungler, carry/support bot lane) is a bit boring, and, even when switched up, isn't as interesting as it could be. It's far from WRONG...it just makes a whole bunch of champions into rarely-used edge cases, which I find unfortunate.

Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

Maokai is already really popular, though. Tons of pro junglers play him, and nothing has really be innovated at the championships that you don't already see in solo queue.

Originally Posted by Djinn_in_Tonic

I just feel the current meta (top bruiser, AP mage mid, vaguely tanky jungler, carry/support bot lane) is a bit boring, and, even when switched up, isn't as interesting as it could be. It's far from WRONG...it just makes a whole bunch of champions into rarely-used edge cases, which I find unfortunate.

"Far from wrong" is pretty much exactly how I would describe it, because in essence is just revolves around placing champions into the roles with which they have the most synergy. That is to say, the "meta" is "put champions where they work best."

Bruiser top isn't necessarily part of the meta, and the champions that actually fill each lane are less important than the lane set-up in general.

Champions who are rarely-used edge cases more often than not are ignored because their design is lacking rather than their place in the meta. A solid 60% of the champion base has been picked or banned at the championships thusfar, and that's a strong showing.

Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

Originally Posted by aethernox

"Far from wrong" is pretty much exactly how I would describe it, because in essence is just revolves around placing champions into the roles with which they have the most synergy. That is to say, the "meta" is "put champions where they work best."

What Djinn is trying to say, I believe, is that he's not pleased with how very little diversity the meta allows for, which is a perfectly reasonable opinion to hold.

Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

If you haven't noticed, these games only served to further entrench the meta, but in a different way.

Look at the winning teams: TPA, CLG.EU, WE, M5, and AZF: What meta breaking picks or strats did they use? Nothing. CLG.EU is playing surprisingly standard, and m5, while their picks are not FOTM, they are all certainly strong, viable, and have seen tournament play.

What are these tourements emphasising? Frankly, things that can't and probably won't happen in solo queue. Lemme explain:

1) The Important of a good Level 1:
Watch these games, look at pro responses. Level 1 has become ****ing important. We are seeing teams literally claim all 4 buffs in a matter of seconds. I remember WCG 2010 NA Qualifers when CLG's jungle (Kobe24) had to actually duo lane with their mid laner because he couldn't jungle without level 2. Now junglers are getting super leashes while the top laner will take blue or red, port and return to lane, often without teleport (actually, that's another funny thing right: The only team to use Teleport is CLG, and they ... aren't doing it very well, yet the important of global ults, especially Karthus/Shen is ... very obvious).

2) The important of early game advantages via lane swaps and roaming: Dig has roam taric, and while it failed pretty terribly, it was a very poor attempt to mimic what other, better, teams are doing with aggressive lane swaps (double mid, double top, blue buff solo bot, etc). For the longest time now, players have known that 1-2 kills, especially in top lane or bot lane, can really snowball the lane. Before, people attempted to get these kills through a few carefully crafted, well executed ganks, primarily from the jungler alone. Now 3 man, or 4-5 man "ganks" happen all the time. Players show up, and they don't just kill: they push until the enemy responds. 1-2 kills can mean a team loses red, a tower and dragon. That's 4k gold, not including the actual kill and missed farm. Again: I don't see this as likely in Solo Queue. Obviously it will devolop, especially the ganking, but not the aggressive lane swaps. The need for communication and the ability to actually play a 2v1 WITHOUT hyper sustain and/or getting blue buff is... difficult. People used to 2v1 with heroes like Chogath and Galio, who usually built very tanky, had sustain, and usually took teleport. They also lane swapped all the time to prevent the enemy from denying their solo lane a lot. Now people just lane standard regardless and accept that the solos will end up behind in farm.

This isn't something I am likely to see in solo queue, at least at mid-low elo. Far too many players prefer to simply play standard and 1v1. The importance of wards in these sort of high roam, early-game intensive, is to such a degree that WE's support literally bought gold/10s and wards the 52 minutes of the original remake of Game 2 vs. CLG.EU. He probably bought 2x as many wards as your average team does at my elo, even in a ranked 5s, serious, environment. The point is: the idea of warding early and often doesn't exist and people play to that.

Lane swaps don't happen. Its too complicated. It requires too much communication. It requires a willing partner. It requires faith in teammates. None of this is the rule in Solo Queue. Its often the exception. Its a rare team that can execute even the most basic level 1 effectively, at least at my elo.

The META, by which I mean, a tank/bruiser jungle, a tank/bruiser/AP solo, an AP solo, and a support/AD duo remains intact. Even when it doesn't (IE Duo mid, solo top AD, which has happened occasionally) the support never gets farm and the jungler often favors support items (gold/10, wriggles, oracles, and aegis/shurelias) to carry items such as Triforce, Deathcap, Infinity Edge, etc. This is simply how the game is, and I don't see that changing.

The ONLY thing I expect to see out of what we are seeing at Worlds is maybe more roaming. Arguably, this has already happened. The days of "sit in lane for 20 minutes" are numbered. And while certainly I've played many solo queue games where that DOES happen, its more of a result of teams stalemating and refusing to teamfight because... honestly, I think most players in solo queue really enjoy laning (even in duo lanes... I think).

My point is: Surprisingly, World's only further entrenches so much of the meta that League is built on.

If, by some strange method, I have completely misread what you meant: please, explain to me what you mean by "the meta."

edit:

As for shaking up the meta: I hope we see some more experimentation from the regular players. Right now Voli/Kayle bot is the extent people would even reasonably go.

That's not even a reasonable lane... honestly. If you want a kill lane pick Corki/Ez/Graves and then pick Leona/Blitz/Taric/Sona. If you want kayle send her somewhere that doesn't get destroyed playing against 2 ranged heroes (If Kayle is able to effectively farm vs. a Corki+Sona lane then the Sona is terrible and the corki doesn't understand what harass is). If you want to play Voli you need to put him somewhere where having a point-blank ranged initiate spell doesn't hurt him: Ie not in a lane where practically every hero has a disengage (Vayne has 2, Corki has a massive one, Sivir has one, Ez has one, Graves has two . . . you see my point).

Again: The meta has remained very, very stable. What is evolving is not hero pick strats (these are ... largely the same: build team comps you are comfortable with that have as many "OP" heroes as you can possible get) but plays made in the game. People are beginning to exploit timing windows and "cheese" strats to gain a temporary advantage which can be used to create a permanent advantage.

Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

No further incidents of screen-looking were witnessed during this match.

The whole thing people have been up in arms about is Woong looking at the minimap -after- the restart.
Not that I want to see blood, but it's painfully clear they're trying to sweep their mess under the rug.
Eh, I'm just absolutely amazed that with the amount of money and planning going into this, these things were able to happen at all.

Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

I am rather disappointed that riot BUILT the stage (we have pictures of it in progress) and didn't include sound proof and "cheat" proof rooms. Even if ZERO teams had looked at the mini map the crowd gave several jungle ganks away with the general commotion caused by such events.

Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

I find it a bit odd since in at least some previous events, the stage WAS designed to prevent this. The teams were in booths and I remember one of the casters talking about how the players had three headsets - headphones for sound, noise-cancelling headphones over those, and then a headset around their neck with a mic so they could talk.

Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

Originally Posted by Nadevoc

I find it a bit odd since in at least some previous events, the stage WAS designed to prevent this. The teams were in booths and I remember one of the casters talking about how the players had three headsets - headphones for sound, noise-cancelling headphones over those, and then a headset around their neck with a mic so they could talk.

That might have been at MLG. MLG puts the teams into soundproof booths. I think the lack of booths was a calculated move to put the teams in a more visible and prominent position by not enclosing them.

Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

Originally Posted by Joran

That might have been at MLG. MLG puts the teams into soundproof booths. I think the lack of booths was a calculated move to put the teams in a more visible and prominent position by not enclosing them.

Obviously, that had some unforeseen issues.

Ah, yeah, mighta been. I don't really have an issue with the lack of soundproof booths, personally. Yes, the crowd will occasionally give away that's something's happening, but they don't give away what. So if you start flinching every time the crowd gets excited, you'll probably end up hurting your game overall. Just stick a curtain/sheet/something between the players and the giant screen showing the omnipotent view and you're good, in my opinion.

Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

Originally Posted by Nadevoc

Ah, yeah, mighta been. I don't really have an issue with the lack of soundproof booths, personally. Yes, the crowd will occasionally give away that's something's happening, but they don't give away what. So if you start flinching every time the crowd gets excited, you'll probably end up hurting your game overall. Just stick a curtain/sheet/something between the players and the giant screen showing the omnipotent view and you're good, in my opinion.

This reminds me in a MLG SC2 game where both players were about to do something to the other. One was about to make a push while deploying nukes as traps while the other was sneaking a huge drop into their opponents base. Both players were sneaking on doing these things at the exact same time and thought the huge crowd cheers were for what they were doing when, suddenly, they found themselves in a HUGE base race situation when they realized that each others armies had snuck into each others main. It was really entertaining to watch.

Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

The biggest danger of trying unconventional champion placements is that the rest of your team with sometimes just give up in champ select.

Like just recently I played a game were our support wanted to play as victor. I thought this was strange but ok, but out ADC tristana just totally gave up and started building tiamat.

Despite this we managed to gain a 10-5 kill advantage over the enemy team but our trist continued to whine and moan about her lack of support. Eventually we lost as the enemy team had alistar and singed and eventually became too tanky to kill as trist was our only damage aside from fizz.

Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

Hm ... cheating. I don't rightly know. It seems like it's mostly Riots fault for not making it impossible. Present a professional player with access to a credible advantage, and he will use it. End of story.

Different thing. I was at work all weekend, horrid 12 hours shifts. Can anyone provide a link to the matches? Or possible a selection of the best ones? =)

Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

The biggest danger of trying unconventional champion placements is that the rest of your team with sometimes just give up in champ select.

There's another big problem with unconventional selections, and that's that gaps are created in the team comp, and nobody is 'assigned' to fill the gap.

Best examples I can think of is when somebody decides that not playing a support means that we don't need ward coverage and playing an AD(Urgot, Talon) mid means we don't need magic damage on the team(This one's usually only a problem if jungle/top have already been picked as heavy physical champs). Sometimes, you get people who adjust for that, sometimes you don't.

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Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

The biggest danger of trying unconventional champion placements is that the rest of your team with sometimes just give up in champ select.

Like just recently I played a game were our support wanted to play as victor. I thought this was strange but ok, but out ADC tristana just totally gave up and started building tiamat.

Despite this we managed to gain a 10-5 kill advantage over the enemy team but our trist continued to whine and moan about her lack of support. Eventually we lost as the enemy team had alistar and singed and eventually became too tanky to kill as trist was our only damage aside from fizz.

This. 100%.

Apart from this is the Rage Problem. If you try something unconventional and it doesn't work, people are often more likely to start flaming/raging/blaming you and destroying the team. Sometimes this will happen anyways (mid loses lane, bot loses lane, all complain about the jungler, etc.), but sometimes doing something unusual will press people's "rage now" button.

Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

Originally Posted by Acromos

Hm ... cheating. I don't rightly know. It seems like it's mostly Riots fault for not making it impossible. Present a professional player with access to a credible advantage, and he will use it. End of story.

Different thing. I was at work all weekend, horrid 12 hours shifts. Can anyone provide a link to the matches? Or possible a selection of the best ones? =)

Here are all the matches. Couldn't make a selection of the best ones on account of only having watched about five.

Re: League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut

People who pick ADC and whine about the lack of support players are one of my biggest rages. It's pretty much a given that about 90% of League players don't like playing support, myself generally included. I'll do it if it needs done, sometimes, but I'm not great at it and I often don't enjoy it. I feel like anyone who picks a champ right off the bat has zero leeway to complain.