It just works is a joke. The last verison of itunes had several problems for people that had large libraries. Everytime Apple puts out a patch you have to pray to god you don't need a reinstall of the entire OS because OSX is not smart enough to backout updates. You download a bad patch from Apple your are stuck doing an Archive and Install. Its a joke.

What are you an ex pc user from 1970? I haven't had a virus in about 7 years. OSX can't even remotely network as well as Vista. Maybe your just not smart enough to know how to use a PC.

I like to have options like if I want to use a certain driver my entire computer is controlled by what Steve Jobs wants me to run. If I want to back something out I can without doing an entire reinstall of my OS. Apple puts in a patch and its bad which many times they are your pretty much screwed until they get around to figuring it out.

My iTunes library is almost 1 TB and in 2 years I use leopard, by the way never reinstalled it after I bought, came home and installed it on my Mac, I never had a single issue with iTunes or other updates. If something goes wrong I will just revert to latest Time Machine backup.

I have an iPhone with the latest software and Snow Leopard. I have NOT been infected, and neither has my company. So where is the problem? Could it be Exchange??? Isn't that piece of software from Microshaft??? The same company that thinks OS crashes is a feature, and an open barn door, it the height of security???? Maybe people and companies should stop using MS products, thats if they want a productive workforce, efficient, working network, without hidden IT costs, with an army of techies at the end of the line, in India. If not continue to buy mediocre overpriced software from MS.

Seeing as how you can build a fine PC running Windows 7 for about $600, while the lowest end iMac starts at $1100, I wouldn't get into a debate over who is "overpriced" xD. But I digress, in case it flew over your head, the guy was making a joke. Don't look now, but Snow Leopard has been *gasp* 'infected' by Microsoft Exchange! Run for your lives!!

Point to me exactly where Microsoft said that "crashes [are] a feature." Considering I've been abusing my Windows 7 RC machine for about three months now and haven't experience any stability issues [edit: outside gaming, nVidia's fault], I'd say Microsoft has been working pretty hard cleaning up Windows and making a fine product. And it is a fine product - no two ways about it.

You want to know why businesses aren't adopting Macs on a regular basis? I'll let you in on a little secret.... Macs are difficult to learn.. I know, shocking words, but its true. Most business people barely understand a computer enough to get through the work day, and that's on machines they've been using all their lives. We've all seen it. Pop a long-time Windows user in front of a Mac for the first time, and watch as they become frustrated at being unable to do even the most basic tasks.

"I'm pressing control c, but its not copying the text!"

There was an article released about a week ago about CIOs refusal to adopt Macs in the workplace. One reason being the 'hidden costs' of lost productivity as everyone has to learn their way around the new OS, new software, and the inevitable compatibility problems. On the other hand, the stability and power management features in Windows 7 make the costs of upgrading practically pay for themselves.

Again, its all about taste. What your preferences are. If you don't mind spending a premium for a machine with amazing benefits, but some trade-offs as well, go with a Mac. If you are on a tighter budget but still want a decent computer, go with a Windows 7 PC.

Nothing! That's actually what's made the Mac useful to me - its ability to run Windows alongside OS X.

I'm just tired of people talking about the Mac like its the holy grail wonderbox of happiness. Fact is, I've had more Finder/Safari/iTunes crashes on Leopard than I ever have on Windows 7, but then again, nVidia's graphics drivers haven't been optimized for the OS yet, leaving me with many random freezes and lockups while playing my games under Windows.

These things are just computers - all of them. They have their strengths and weaknesses. Perhaps one has an edge over the other, but the degree of fanboyism from both sides is startling and uncalled for.

As much as I dislike Microsoft and all that they stand for, I hope the Zune is marginally successful. Not because I aspire to ever get one, but simply to keep Apple on their toes and keep price pressure on the iPod. Competition, and all that...

right. by your logic, microsoft should have been putting out marginally successful products for at least 20 years now.

APPLE is its own competition. they continue to innovate in spite of the competition, continue to raise the technological bar. everyone else is scrambling to catch up.

Nothing! That's actually what's made the Mac useful to me - its ability to run Windows alongside OS X.

I'm just tired of people talking about the Mac like its the holy grail wonderbox of happiness. Fact is, I've had more Finder/Safari/iTunes crashes on Leopard than I ever have on Windows 7, but then again, nVidia's graphics drivers haven't been optimized for the OS yet, leaving me with many random freezes and lockups while playing my games under Windows.

These things are just computers - all of them. They have their strengths and weaknesses. Perhaps one has an edge over the other, but the degree of fanboyism from both sides is startling and uncalled for.

After I'v switched from Windows XP SP2 in 2006 I can honestly say that Mac with Mac OS X both Tiger and Leopard is a wonderbox of happiness to me. Really honestly.

right. by your logic, microsoft should have been putting out marginally successful products for at least 20 years now.

APPLE is its own competition. they continue to innovate in spite of the competition, continue to raise the technological bar. everyone else is scrambling to catch up.

First of all, there has been much innovation in the technology world that Apple has *not* done, so I wouldn't word it as though everyone's been sitting on their hands and knees for the last few decades.

Second, what's wrong with that? If everyone else "catching up" means better products across the board, why the hell not? I love the iPhone not because its an amazing device, but because it has inspired a boon in the mobile computing market. I'm looking forward to a day not long from now, where nearly every manufacturer has a device to fulfill every niche purpose the market demands for on the store shelves.

If I have Apple to thank for the upcoming Android explosion, I will certainly thank them from the bottom of my heart ^_^!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Povilas

After I'v switched from Windows XP SP2 in 2006 I can honestly say that Mac with Mac OS X both Tiger and Leopard is a wonderbox of happiness to me. Really honestly.

And you know what, that's perfectly fine. I purposefully avoid anything before Windows 7 in any of the machines I own now, and I would recommend all others to do the same.

Windows 7 won't be enough to compel long-time Mac users away in droves, but I will certainly say that it is, by far, the best version of Windows ever made. You should give it a try, I think you'd like it.

And you know what, that's perfectly fine. I purposefully avoid anything before Windows 7 in any of the machines I own now, and I would recommend all others to do the same.

Windows 7 won't be enough to compel long-time Mac users away in droves, but I will certainly say that it is, by far, the best version of Windows ever made. You should give it a try, I think you'd like it.

I was using latest beta. Clearly it's way better than Vista or XP, but for me after using Leopard for two years I very much like Mac OS X UI and how simple it is and I can work faster with Spaces and Expose also Quiclook. It's in my blood now I love my Xbox 360 it's a fine game console though hardware could be less faulty.

Okay, how about another history lesson. Remember IBM? They were the top dogs in the industry long before Microsoft had its reign. People laugh and point at Windows 95 as Microsoft's attempt to "catch up" to the rest of the world. Apple was laughing hysterically at Microsoft at the time, making fun of little facts like "Oh, now they can support long-format names, like we have been doing for 10 years."

No one had taken Microsoft seriously until Windows 95, and do you know why? Obviously someone liked it, because it fulfilled what the technology industry needed at the time in the consumer market, far superior to anything Apple or anything else had at the time.

Edit: I don't like defending any company based on its past or present history. Vista was atrocious, and Windows 7 is amazing. Just like Tiger was a mess and Leopard is terrific. If a company makes a good product, who cares about its past? Hell, Apple's OS 9 was utter crap. Are you telling me I should judge the company today based on something they made 10 years ago??

A little historical annotation:

MS and Apple were both viewed as guys in a garage or dorm room companies by corporate America which was 90% + of computing back in the day when the home PC market had barely begun. Actually MS wasn't viewed as anything as it lacked any compelling products and bought its DOS after meeting with IBM. So tiny MS got its foot in the corporate door via being blessed by IBM for its PC.

And the public perception of IBM, not MS, made IBM become the home computing standard as well as it could piggy-back off the business and productivity software for the PC. Which marginalized the in most ways superior Apple II,

Apple, well actually SJ against the wisdom of his own board, viewed a mouse-driven GUI as their ticket back into the game. MS had early and continuing access to the Apple API's as Apple believed having Office Apps would be critical, and this and other factors led to MS foisting its firt attempts at GUI's pasted on top of DOS (I think bits of it still are!) into a corporate and following home market which didn't take Apple seriously as a corporation (and it had no corporate sales force or support footprint) - while MS skills were carried everywhere by Big Blue's entire staff.

Right up to and even past the point that MS stabbed IBM's OS2 to death, Julius Ceasar style as it also began to destroy most of its original ISV's like WordPerfect, dBase, Lotus, etc.

So it wasn't Win '95 love, rather corp America's lack of a perception of a viable business-class alternative (the Mac debuted with a "goodies" item on the main menu), and fears about Apple's viability were getting into full swing where they'd stay for over a decade even as Apple placed all its marketing and design eggs into the home and niche markets. And even today, at least from the outside, A, Inc. seems ambivalent about just how and how much it wants to approach-attack-embrace-serve-ignore-nibble at the Enterprise and SMB markets. Interestingly it may be the iPhone that finally gets them in over the transom, with the home market leading the business one in this next wave of computing

Just giving a little context....

Also, if Tiger's a mess, ya can't prove it by me. I'm still using and loving it on my iBook, though of course I'd like all the new widgets. My jump will be right over Leopard to SL when I finally give in and buy the next rev MB Pro....... ....and my brief, brief look at Win 7 didn't convince me Vista's atrociousness is entirely a memory.

I was using latest beta. Clearly it's way better than Vista or XP, but for me after using Leopard for two years I very much like Mac OS X UI and how simple it is and I can work faster with Spaces and Expose also Quiclook. It's in my blood now I love my Xbox 360 it's a fine game console though hardware could be less faulty.

Expose and Quicklook I can do without, but I sure to miss Spaces. I'm a little shocked that Microsoft, nor third party vendors, have taken a lesson from Apple and made a decent virtual desktop application for Windows. I'm slowly learning to cope without it, but yeah, its definitely a killer app in Leopard.

Put it this way, if you find yourself using Windows as some point, whether at work or at a friend's place, you'll wish it were Windows 7 for sure. For a Windows OS, its the best thing there is.

One word: History.
Windows 3 was pretty good, but those were simpler times.
Windows 9X and XP Home should not have been unleashed on the world without security measures. I believe they thought it too complex an issue for an average user, and chose to ignore the issue. Very arrogant.

The Windows 95 interface was nice, but they pretty much copied what Silicon Graphics was already doing.

I'll believe they can write good software when I see it. Windows 7 is being hyped now. Maybe they have been pushed by Apple. Nothing wrong with competition, Microsoft just isn't used to it!

Because - unfortunately - no one really competes with them.

To compete with someone, you do need to be in the same league... and neither OSX nor Linux, with their respective market shares, are in the same league.

You are incorrect. They are successful because Windows users decide to use them. Over 90% of ipods and iphones are synced to Windows systems.

Not sure how to respond to the if Windows was never invented. What I can say is I still doubt Apple would have been the OS leader seeing in 30 years they still haven't been able to come up with a decent Office Suite. Also if Apple really wanted to cater to the market they would have opened up their OS a long time ago. Clearly they can not manage all the hardware option out in the world like MS can.

Steve Jobs is one of the biggest protection freaks in the world.

There is a point here.

One of the reasons for iPod popularity is in the fact that Microsoft didn't put much of an effort into media players before, thus making a lot of space for Apple, even within their own backyard.

If anyone else managed to grow strong with different platform - say, Commodore with Amiga - no one can say what would happen. Maybe Commodore would have successful line of their own media players, thus minimizing Apple's success?

As it is, I think it is safe to say Microsoft is responsible for iPod success, though more for not competing with Apple than for not preventing Apple from populating Microsoft's market.

Your just one of those people that believe you are elite because you use an Apple product which is the single biggest downfall to Apple.

Not sure what is so funny the fact is if it wasn't for Windows users ipod sales would drop 90%. All you have to do is look at PC market share and anyone can come to the conclusion that without Windows users Apple product growth would be very limited.

I never said the ipod or iphone was a bad product, which is why Windows users use them. The Zune most likely never took off because it came to the market too late, after Apple had already been around a long time in that market. Its not rocket science. I know guys like you hold onto ipod sales for dear life because its the only thing Apple had lead in for 30 years.

I one of those elite..stop assuming mate, as Yuusharo so clearly stated and I agree, I am person who is loyal to the BEST product, not because it is Apple. I do like Apple has a company, but if the product stinks, I would not buy it.

Btw: Who said you said anything about iPod being a bad product. Take time to read replies, do not get emotional and start ranting, believing in your head that this is personal attack on you or MS. I do attack MS but not because it MS, but for some of the bad product decisions and lack of innovation in some areas.

If you read the forum ( look for reply #24) carefully, I actually told someone to review Zune HD, since if I had not invested so much time/money in iPhone, I would consider the product.

come lets not get carried away here, MS were the ones that were sued for their internet browser behavior, which affected numerous companies.

MS still has a great lead on Apple when it comes to killing competition, but I understand your point.

... And good old US of America used to exterminate their native inhabitants, yet today it is considered one of the most democratic countries on this planet.

Yes, MS was really nasty 10+ years ago, but 10 years in IT is distant history.

Today, Apple is much more extreme in dealing with competition and restricting their own users in every possible way than Microsoft is, and we are living in today.

As an iPhone user, I really like device - really like it - and software is greatly thought of and executed for mobile device, but I keep thinking iPhone could have been so much more without Apple's paranoid enforcements, just as it is. In fact, after just 3 weeks of having it, I'm already considering an option to jailbreak it.

... And good old US of America used to exterminate their native inhabitants, yet today it is considered one of the most democratic countries on this planet.

Yes, MS was really nasty 10+ years ago, but 10 years in IT is distant history.

Today, Apple is much more extreme in dealing with competition and restricting their own users in every possible way than Microsoft is, and we are living in today.

As an iPhone user, I really like device - really like it - and software is greatly thought of and executed for mobile device, but I keep thinking iPhone could have been so much more without Apple's paranoid enforcements, just as it is. In fact, after just 3 weeks of having it, I'm already considering an option to jailbreak it.

I think I did say I understand his point, so what was your point about my post??

Exactly. I don't like MS any more than the next person here. I feel they have poor business practices. However, when they do make good products (and yes, it DOES happen), then I praise those products. I also don't like Apple for their business practices (being very anti-competitive and closed) but when they have a good product, I'll praise it too. I like the hardware in the iPod Touch and think the device is wonderful. I however hate the OS and its limitations it puts on the hardware.

But yeah, if MS were to release the App, I'm sure people would do exactly as you said, install and delete without trying JUST to give MS a One Star... which has the effect of nothing against the company they hate so much.

BTW, after reading your other posts on the matter, I'm very glad someone have views like me around here.

I think you and yuusharo are my two never-known-about-separated-at-birth twin brothers

When you look up the word Bulls**t, it says "see Microsoft". PC users are full of BS. Can't handle the truth. Carry on using your bloated Windows (a copy of OS X), 8 billion viruses (uniquely Windows only), malware (windows only), crashes, file incompatibility, software incompatibility, even certain MS products aren't backward or forward compatible. The huge extra cost in staff wages to run networks, solve IT problems etc. iTunes is still nearly 90% of what it was when it was originally released. So not sure where you get bloatware from. It just works, unlike 90% of MS software. If Windows and Ms Office aren't bloatware, I don't know what is.

Last time I was checking, list of incompatible OSX software was pretty substantial. Hardly any smaller than Vista incompatibilities.

iTunes is horrible bloatware, and it even doesn't do some simple basic tasks any half-decent media player should do - like monitoring media folder. If I could sync music on my iPhone with WMP, I'd switch in a split second. If I could sync iPhone apps with something else, iTunes would be immediately uninstalled and its sorrow remains purged with Crap Cleaner.

Yes, I loath it that much, unfortunately have to use it because Steve-o said so. \

Last time I was checking, list of incompatible OSX software was pretty substantial. Hardly any smaller than Vista incompatibilities.

iTunes is horrible bloatware, and it even doesn't do some simple basic tasks any half-decent media player should do - like monitoring media folder. If I could sync music on my iPhone with WMP, I'd switch in a split second. If I could sync iPhone apps with something else, iTunes would be immediately uninstalled and its sorrow remains purged with Crap Cleaner.

Yes, I loath it that much, unfortunately have to use it because Steve-o said so. \

Good to hear personal experiences, but anyone can provide actually factual data of precenatge of people are not satisfied with iTunes, since I could not found it any place on internet.

which OSX are you refering to Panther, Tiger, Leopard or Snow Leopard ? Can you link, where your saw that list? (i.e., OSX (which one) vs Vista).

It just works is a joke. The last verison of itunes had several problems for people that had large libraries. Everytime Apple puts out a patch you have to pray to god you don't need a reinstall of the entire OS because OSX is not smart enough to backout updates. You download a bad patch from Apple your are stuck doing an Archive and Install. Its a joke.

What are you an ex pc user from 1970? I haven't had a virus in about 7 years. OSX can't even remotely network as well as Vista. Maybe your just not smart enough to know how to use a PC.

I like to have options like if I want to use a certain driver my entire computer is controlled by what Steve Jobs wants me to run. If I want to back something out I can without doing an entire reinstall of my OS. Apple puts in a patch and its bad which many times they are your pretty much screwed until they get around to figuring it out.

If you are running weekly backups via Time Machine or Carbon Copy, then archive and install is non-issue. Of course, maybe you're not smart enough to figure that out on OS X (Sorry, but after reading the "Maybe your just not smart enough to know how to use a PC", that had to be done). Like most everything else with computers, these "issues" are normally user related IMO.

Last time I was checking, list of incompatible OSX software was pretty substantial. Hardly any smaller than Vista incompatibilities.

iTunes is horrible bloatware, and it even doesn't do some simple basic tasks any half-decent media player should do - like monitoring media folder. If I could sync music on my iPhone with WMP, I'd switch in a split second. If I could sync iPhone apps with something else, iTunes would be immediately uninstalled and its sorrow remains purged with Crap Cleaner.

Yes, I loath it that much, unfortunately have to use it because Steve-o said so. \

I agree with "souliisoul". Provide some links next time or expect to be called out for "BS".

One of the reasons for iPod popularity is in the fact that Microsoft didn't put much of an effort into media players before, thus making a lot of space for Apple, even within their own backyard.

If anyone else managed to grow strong with different platform - say, Commodore with Amiga - no one can say what would happen. Maybe Commodore would have successful line of their own media players, thus minimizing Apple's success?

As it is, I think it is safe to say Microsoft is responsible for iPod success, though more for not competing with Apple than for not preventing Apple from populating Microsoft's market.

So what is your defense for Microsoft losing market share in the mobile market, especially since the release of the iPhone? I see where you are coming from and company like Microsoft can't be counted out of anything, but your logic seems bit flawed.

You must be the only PC user, who knows how to use one. 99% of PC users don't, thats why call centers around the world are full of an army of staff, just to answer simple questions, like how to switch it off.

My company doesn't use PCs, because they are crap, not even for accounts. And never will. And I thought this was a MAC forum, not a PC one. You obviously don't know what you are talking about, since neither MS or Apple were around in 1970. One big dumb-ass PC User.http://forums.appleinsider.com/images/smilies/lol.gif

In what way has Microsoft tried to kill competition illegally? That's a pretty bold statement.

You haven't been paying attention then.

AARP code to made it appear that Windows 3.1 would not load under the superior DR-DOS of the time. When Windows tried to load, it detected if it was MS-DOS or not but looking at the location of code pages. If different from MS-DOS, it would terminate and provide a bullsh*t error message implying that it would not work with DR-DOS. That is the single biggest reason why MS started up the development of Windows95. Before then, MS made more money selling two products. First, they sold DOS, then got people to fork over for Windows 3.1. DR-DOS was faster than MS' product, more stable, and cheaper. More proof that the better product rarely survives an attack by a monopolist.

It's binding agreements with nearly every OEM which still are unchallenged. All the OEMs live in fear of Microsoft. Dell, for example, really can't sell machines without Windows and so Dell makes sure they keep Microsoft happy because Acer would love nothing better than to see Dell unable to ship Windows. Just using the two as an example. This is why you cannot buy a consumer-level machine from nearly every single major OEM *without* Windows on it. This is the basis for the "Microsoft tax".

I think you need to learn how to read my illiterate friend, Apple was formed on April 1st 1976, not 1970. I don't expect PC users, to know facts or figures, they never can read them properly, to busy calling call centres for help.

The ('s) means they were started within that decade. I didn't say the exact date was 1970 I said it was in the 1970('s). Get a clue.

If you knew half of what I know about IT you would be in good shape.

Obviously you don't know too much as Steve and Billy boy never worked together, MS produced its first product for the Mac, not for PCs, as Windows didn't exist until several years later. And regarding the 1970(s), you picked it up wrong from another PC fanboy who stated 1970 and not the 1970(s), you need the clean your glasses.

[QUOTE=extremeskater;1495812]Steve and Bill have actually worked together on many issues. In fact Steve Job hired Bill Gates to code . I believe he was paid 38,000 at the time.

You are clearly just some angry fanboy that no one can debate. When you get down to looking at a typo your really reaching.

I didn't comment on the last one because it was totally irrelevant and stupid to bring a TV debate about their years in the IT industry, the war isn't over, are you really that naive??? Apple and MS are at each others throats, but it seems Apple is the one winning lately. Only PC users argue over stupid points, Mac users just get on with working, and not calling call centres for help.

PC users can't have a debate amongst themselves, let alone with Mac users. I 'm not an angry fanboy, I just love my Mac. It appears PC fanboys like you can't take it. Do you have you PC tech call centre on speed dial???

What can't we take? I have never understood that comment. I am a Mac user and a PC user. The point is these are tools not something to fall in love with. I have been using a Mac for almost two decades that hardly makes me an Apple basher.

What I don't like is people like you because your attitude is the reason why people think all Apple users are assholes. When people like you use terms like Microshaft or Windoze it just makes you look like a idiot.

And to act like Windows users are jealous is a total joke. Like they can't walk into their local Apple store and buy any product there?

I would love for more PC users to go there and be educated and buy Apple stuff.
You can swap a few hardware items actually. Any good Apple tech guy would know this.
Apple does not control all the drivers.
There are thousands of 3rd party software, for Macs.
MS gives you what they want and you are stuck with it.
Like MS doesn't have a monthly virus warnings, and take forever to fix the numerous bugs in windows.

Its hard running a business of 150 people from my parents basement, but what do you know?? Very little, boy do you know how to make assumptions, sweeping statements, talk the same crap that comes from your diapers. You are the ASSHOLE, because you are a PC tech guy.

As much as I dislike Microsoft and all that they stand for, I hope the Zune is marginally successful. Not because I aspire to ever get one, but simply to keep Apple on their toes and keep price pressure on the iPod. Competition, and all that...

Apple did, in fact, create the whole iPod culture without any pressure or competition from MS, or anyone else for that matter, so I don't think we have to worry about Apple getting complacent. That's not part of their DNA. I think sales of products is what drive prices.

Blowing out another person's candle does not make our candle burn brighter - author unknown

The only user upgrade you can do is ram we know this. That isn't exactly high tech. Any other upgrades would void your warranty. We also all know this.

Yes Apple controls all your drivers. If you want to change versions of your video card driver please let me know how you would do that. We both know you can't.

Thousands? If you go to this little webside call apple.com you will find under 200 total. You are dreaming.

MS has nothing to do with third party software or drivers. Get a clue what you are talking about.

Just because you have 150 people in your Sims game doesn't mean they work for you. And your mom bringing you down lunch doesn't mean she is your assisant....LOL.

Didn't you know you can swap hard drives, optical drives, video cards, as well as RAM without the warranty being effected. There you go, a free education on things Mac. After 33 years in business, you think Apple only has 200 apps!!!!! What a moron you are. Keep on taking those pills, crack etc. I got at least three 3rd party updates without Apple's help or control, recently. Back to answering those PC users problems, added bug features for you boy. You are number 4,167 in the queue, our idiot PC tech guy will be with you, when ever he learns not to talk out of his arse.