Was World War 2 a necessary and ultimately just war?

There will always be war as it is the natural order of things. WW2 is no different other than it's global scale.
Politics, territory, religion etc, these are all just vehicles for war.
War is about opposites, love and hate, light and darkness, positive and negative, ying and yang.
Where there is peace there must also be war.
It really is that simple.

I quite agree with your assessment there, with just one point to add...

Had it not been for WW1 and WW2 (the latter especially), the British Empire would not have dissolved. It was only because of US insistence and the UN
Charter that we decolonised. Had we not fought to Wars to the point of annihilation, we would have had the strength and money to hold on to the
Empire.

This would have, most likely, led to a much better Africa as well, because it was largely down to Cold War meddling that the place is so fudged up
now. When we decolonised, we left behind democratic Governments which were then subverted by the Superpowers in their Proxy games.

Had the World Wars not happened, the most likely outcome would have been a Commonwealth Union, similiar to the EU today, but across the former British
Empire. These idea's were being seriously considered pre-WW1, with autonomous nations joined together under an Imperial Parliament.

phantom150
Very rarely are their ever 'genuine wars'.
Most times both sides forces want the same things (freedom and safety for their families), however power hungry leaders don't want to loose face and
want to maintain their egos.

The way Japan was forced into war through the US establishing embargo's and blocking Oil was disgusting, so was how they Japanese treated and
perceived other races, mainly the unspeakable things they did to the Chinese which they still deny.

The millions that have died due to Sunni vs Shiite Muslims is disturbing. Not to sound ignorant, for the most part they are the same not kill each
other and other religions over their tiny differences.

In order to say the US was wrong in their embargo on Japan, you would have to believe Japan was right in it's wars it was waging at the time.
Remember, at this time the US was not the power hungry, world police it is today. Leave that bias right at the door. The US was fully justified using
it's power that it did have, peacefully, to hinder the Japanese war effort, which was a goal that was more than noble for anybody with a heart. It
was also, peacefully, supporting the war effort against Hitler by supplying the Allies before actually entering into the war.

If we want to talk justifications, Germany had far more justification in it's launching of war on Europe, than Japan did on it's war against Asia.

The only way one could argue Japan was forced into war, is if you get into a really convoluted tale of blame, and go all the way back when the US
basically forced Japan to modernize. One could argue forcing Japan to modernize led to it's rise in power, which led to it's war against Asia, which
led to the US's involvement. But again, quite convoluted, and if that type of blame game is acceptable than nothing every done in the history of man
is ever wrong because you can always find a justification if you go back far enough.

Im Sorry James, i think leaving the Bias at the door needs to work two ways......

"supporting the war effort against Hitler by supplying the Allies before actually entering into the war."

that statement is only partially true, a whole heap of very prominent American companies directly intertwined with Government made a reasonable amount
of money supporting the Germans too, Ford, Coca cola, the Bush\rockafella oil crowd all managed to do ok out of keeping the US out of the european
war and supplying both sides.....

with that said i do not blame the US for making Japan enter the war, they were anxious to build an empire and had support of the axis powers in
Europe, it would have happened no matter what the US had done.

Back on topic... It is a difficult one, Hitler had visions of being a napoleon Type emporer, with avast Empire around him, he hated the Jews and any
less man (in his opinon) than the classic blonde haired blue eyed modern northern european, he openly persecuted everything that didnt fit this mold,
the Italians were increadibly racist, the japanese commited as horrendous and arguably (although not is as great numbers) more horrendous acts of
inhumane torture and experiments... for all these issue war was just, and would have always occured....

however, there is alot of information showing the same banking families and groups funding both sides, funding the numerous parties involved or being
directly connected to the companies that made a decent (if you can call it that) living from the war... as such i believe... where europe ended up in
the tails end of the 1930's a war was going to happen and it was a just war, genuine freedom fighting actually protecting the world... but could a
certain few who profited from war (and the rebuilding after it) have stopped it early by lifting financial and political assets from those who were in
charge of the war machine... i would say yes.....

I was more getting to the fact that, science and technology was starting to accelerate with the introduction of modern society. The A-Bomb was
inevitable, especially with the likes of Einstein and Oppenheimer around.

WW2 needed to happen, because 'the bomb' needed to be created by a western/white nation.

Racist? maybe..

But imagine if WW2 had not of occured, and Russia, germany, japan created the nuclear bomb.. then went to war using it like they were firecrackers.

I believe in destiny/fate.. WW2 was meant to happen for technology. WW1 was meant to happen to move the world past royalty and bloodline rule. WW3
will occur to rid the world of greed and self satisfaction.
Whats happening in the natural process of mans intelligence.

I know that there could be plenty of hidden things going on behind the scenes in any instance, but there are far to many people who take things and
blow them way out of proportion.

Hitler was pretty damn open about his intentions to destroy anyone and everyone that didn't fit his image of perfection. He wrote books about it, he
performed speeches about it. His countrymen knew, his soldiers knew it, the allies knew it.

Now, there is huge potential some of this may have been blown up by the allies to sound worse, but we have evidence in the actual death camps.
Millions of bodies, and yes the allies held their own POW/slave camps of their own in some areas, but they weren't quite on the order of Hitlers.

Canada had japanese POW's that were treated pretty badly, but they didn't intentionally round them up to destroy them. They were rounded up as
enemies.

Hitler Rounded up jews, gypsies, blacks, gays, enemies of his party, enemies of war, and treated them all the same. Fuel for the fires of his death
camps.

" by lifting financial and political assets from those who were in charge of the war machine... i would say yes..... "

and once Heir Hitler, found out u were thwarting his plan's,, for instance if your last name was Crupp?,, would it matter to Heir Hitler what your
name was?,, if he sent some SS too have a chat?

" i would say yes..... "

i believe u would .

edit on 11/12/2013 by BobAthome because: (no reason given)

Im not really talking about the people who were sitting across the room from him in the reichstagg i mean the large multi national companies and
bankers who didnt need to finance and provide assets could have prevented the growth of the Nazi's war machine, there were not that many SS just
kicking about washington and london offing people....

Quite right - The French provided some useful research too, but without things like the British/Canadian "Tube Alloys" project, the US would have
had to start from scratch. The Americans provided the money, for the most part and the buggers after the war then started getting real funny about
sharing the tech that we had given them.

In fact, had it not been for the Tizzard mission, the US would have been well behind in several fields. We had to bribe them with all our latest
gizmo's and gadgets to get them to help us fight Hitler.

I quite agree with your assessment there, with just one point to add...

Had it not been for WW1 and WW2 (the latter especially), the British Empire would not have dissolved. It was only because of US insistence and the UN
Charter that we decolonised. Had we not fought to Wars to the point of annihilation, we would have had the strength and money to hold on to the
Empire.

This would have, most likely, led to a much better Africa as well, because it was largely down to Cold War meddling that the place is so fudged up
now. When we decolonised, we left behind democratic Governments which were then subverted by the Superpowers in their Proxy games.

Had the World Wars not happened, the most likely outcome would have been a Commonwealth Union, similiar to the EU today, but across the former British
Empire. These idea's were being seriously considered pre-WW1, with autonomous nations joined together under an Imperial Parliament.

Very good assessment and I'd agree totally. Africa was far better of under the control of colonial powers. I'm not saying that's RIGHT or
ultimately how it should be, but it's better than the cluster-eff we have right now.

It's really sad how much of the world has been so devastated by the big boys playing their games. That's why it's so horrible when people are
ignorant of history. Look at the fallout from the coldwar (both figurative and literally) that we are discussing right now. It's awful. Now think
about the fallout in the future from today's ridiculous antics. I'm sure you already have many times, but unfortunately few in this world today do.
They don't seem to understand that today's events effect tomorrow. It's cliche for a reason, because it's so true. It seems like any cliche
concept becomes ignored, and thought silly for being so obvious, but because of this few people actually see it.

I was more getting to the fact that, science and technology was starting to accelerate with the introduction of modern society. The A-Bomb was
inevitable, especially with the likes of Einstein and Oppenheimer around.

WW2 needed to happen, because 'the bomb' needed to be created by a western/white nation.

Racist? maybe..

But imagine if WW2 had not of occured, and Russia, germany, japan created the nuclear bomb.. then went to war using it like they were firecrackers.

I believe in destiny/fate.. WW2 was meant to happen for technology. WW1 was meant to happen to move the world past royalty and bloodline rule. WW3
will occur to rid the world of greed and self satisfaction.
Whats happening in the natural process of mans intelligence.

I understand where you are going, when changing past events it's impossible to know how things would truly turn out. Maybe your absolutely correct,
or maybe the world would have simply been a better place where nuclear weapons were used as a small scale deterrent, not an offensive, potentially
civilization killing level we had in the CW and today.

We'll never know, but I agree with you, if we DO have to live in a world with nuclear backed superpowers, I'd rather be the first nuclear backed
superpower.

phantom150
Very rarely are their ever 'genuine wars'.
Most times both sides forces want the same things (freedom and safety for their families), however power hungry leaders don't want to loose face and
want to maintain their egos.

The way Japan was forced into war through the US establishing embargo's and blocking Oil was disgusting, so was how they Japanese treated and
perceived other races, mainly the unspeakable things they did to the Chinese which they still deny.

The millions that have died due to Sunni vs Shiite Muslims is disturbing. Not to sound ignorant, for the most part they are the same not kill each
other and other religions over their tiny differences.

In order to say the US was wrong in their embargo on Japan, you would have to believe Japan was right in it's wars it was waging at the time.
Remember, at this time the US was not the power hungry, world police it is today. Leave that bias right at the door. The US was fully justified using
it's power that it did have, peacefully, to hinder the Japanese war effort, which was a goal that was more than noble for anybody with a heart. It
was also, peacefully, supporting the war effort against Hitler by supplying the Allies before actually entering into the war.

If we want to talk justifications, Germany had far more justification in it's launching of war on Europe, than Japan did on it's war against Asia.

The only way one could argue Japan was forced into war, is if you get into a really convoluted tale of blame, and go all the way back when the US
basically forced Japan to modernize. One could argue forcing Japan to modernize led to it's rise in power, which led to it's war against Asia, which
led to the US's involvement. But again, quite convoluted, and if that type of blame game is acceptable than nothing every done in the history of man
is ever wrong because you can always find a justification if you go back far enough.

Im Sorry James, i think leaving the Bias at the door needs to work two ways......

"supporting the war effort against Hitler by supplying the Allies before actually entering into the war."

that statement is only partially true, a whole heap of very prominent American companies directly intertwined with Government made a reasonable amount
of money supporting the Germans too, Ford, Coca cola, the Bush\rockafella oil crowd all managed to do ok out of keeping the US out of the european
war and supplying both sides.....

with that said i do not blame the US for making Japan enter the war, they were anxious to build an empire and had support of the axis powers in
Europe, it would have happened no matter what the US had done.

Back on topic... It is a difficult one, Hitler had visions of being a napoleon Type emporer, with avast Empire around him, he hated the Jews and any
less man (in his opinon) than the classic blonde haired blue eyed modern northern european, he openly persecuted everything that didnt fit this mold,
the Italians were increadibly racist, the japanese commited as horrendous and arguably (although not is as great numbers) more horrendous acts of
inhumane torture and experiments... for all these issue war was just, and would have always occured....

however, there is alot of information showing the same banking families and groups funding both sides, funding the numerous parties involved or being
directly connected to the companies that made a decent (if you can call it that) living from the war... as such i believe... where europe ended up in
the tails end of the 1930's a war was going to happen and it was a just war, genuine freedom fighting actually protecting the world... but could a
certain few who profited from war (and the rebuilding after it) have stopped it early by lifting financial and political assets from those who were in
charge of the war machine... i would say yes.....

There were definitely some US companies that dealt with Germany, but I was talking more of a national level. Aid was sent from the US government,
where as dealings with germany were taken on behalf of private enterprise. Not a good thing either way though.

As far as Hitler, I never said he himself was just, or anything but a monster. But I feel the german people, the strength behind the war effort, had
just goals initially to regain their former territory and basically throw off the chains of debt placed upon them (last one sound familiar)

The Japanese had been in open war with China since 1937. All a part of their overall goal which they called "Hakkō ichiu" which roughly translates
to "Eight corners of the world under one roof". That is to say that they wanted to take complete control of all of Asia.

But China turned out to be a pretty tough nut to crack. So they turned their focus on other targets to build up their empire. It began on December 7th
and 8th of 1941. Almost simultaneously, the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor to shut down the US Pacific Fleet and invaded Thailand and Malaysia.

Meanwhile, Hitler started his crusade to reshape Europe in his own image in 1939. Overall, he had a similar goal. To unify Europe by force. If the US
had stayed out of both theaters of war and the Russians had somehow been defeated, it is a pretty strong possibility that he would have led his troops
to claim the entire continent, including the middle east. After that, he might have even gone after Africa.

The Germans and the Japanese probably would have tag teamed China until they finally failed. They might have even gone after Australia eventually.

Unification. Neither party would have ever stopped until they were forced to stop.

What I'm saying is that if the Germans had succeeded in total domination of Eastern and Western Europe and there were no longer a British
commonwealth, they would focused a larger bulk of their forces into taking control of the Middle East and Africa.

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