'Sorry, I've Forgotten my Decryption Password' is Contempt of Court

TrueCrypt had that option. The only problem was that it's pretty obvious that there's something there when the volume size and the disk size don't match up at all. Between that and the secret volume being advertised as a feature, it wasn't exactly clever.

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I never really used it, but when I was reading up on the feature, the hidden partition was inside the decoy partition. The decoy partition would actually overwrite your secret partition if you filled it up. They couldn't even see if there was a secret partition or as even the free space was full of random noise or encrypted data. Granted this would work much better when your hidden data is very small compared to the decoy data, and I'm guessing that if guilty, this guys hidden data would take up a sizable space.

I never really used it, but when I was reading up on the feature, the hidden partition was inside the decoy partition. The decoy partition would actually overwrite your secret partition if you filled it up. They couldn't even see if there was a secret partition or as even the free space was full of random noise or encrypted data. Granted this would work much better when your hidden data is very small compared to the decoy data, and I'm guessing that if guilty, this guys hidden data would take up a sizable space.

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Sounds like an inception partition haha. I used TrueCrypts a few times, but since I was seeing the size problems, I stopped using it. It was a bit ago though so they might have made it better more recently.

As much as I like to see guys like this guy get punished. I like the 5th amendment a hell of a lot more. Based on the courts logic here if you really did forget the password to a device that the government wants access to you could basically end up sitting in prison for the rest of your life. This guy may be a shitty person but the court is dead wrong here they have no right to compel him to give information which may incriminate himself.

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Guy should find some expert witnesses that can attest to forgetting a password in the past. It shouldn't be too difficult.

Sounds like an inception partition haha. I used TrueCrypts a few times, but since I was seeing the size problems, I stopped using it. It was a bit ago though so they might have made it better more recently.

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Last I read, they stopped producing the software as apparently the FBI, CIA, NSA, or whoever was going to force them to put in a back door. This was maybe 2 or 3 years ago.

So if they are unable to crack the encryption or brute-force the password and he truly forgot his password, then that is a life sentence. There are murderers who have had shorter sentences, been released, and then murdered again. That has a traumatic effect on all friends and family of the victims. A person who only downloads and views child porn, does not create a victim. Yet there are times when they get longer sentences than murderers and sexual predators, sometimes even a life sentence. http://www.johntfloyd.com/child-pornography-sentences/
Where does the 8th amendment stand in all this?

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It creates a market for child porn and that's how victims are created. I'm all for not being able to force this guy to turn over a key and not being able to jail them for not providing it, but consuming child porn videos is not a victim-less crime.

Wait until some investment broker steals your life's savings and you need their records to prove it.

"Oopps It's encrypted"

I get this, I really do. I really do understand what many of you guys are concerned about. But it just always sounds to me like many of you don't think about the other side of the coin.

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Wait until it's me what? I wouldn't expect a judge to put an investment broker in jail for the rest of his life because he wouldn't decrypt a volume. Lets say that investment broker stole my 3,000$ dollars. Should he go to jail for the rest of his life, without a trial or jury because he ate the sticky note?

As much as I like to see guys like this guy get punished. I like the 5th amendment a hell of a lot more. Based on the courts logic here if you really did forget the password to a device that the government wants access to you could basically end up sitting in prison for the rest of your life. This guy may be a shitty person but the court is dead wrong here they have no right to compel him to give information which may incriminate himself.

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I disagree. I think the court has every right because they already have evidence and sworn testimony, he's already fucked. This guy will not go free if they don't get the drives decrypted, it will not save him. The difference will be how long the sentence is. Now if they didn't have a witness and if they didn't have other evidence then this Judge wouldn't be pushing him and his claim that he doesn't remember the password would stand because the Judge would not have reasonable cause to not believe him. But that is not the case.

The court is not wrong in this case and if things were different then the court would not have made this demand.

The Court can't ignore evidence and testimony in blind defense of the 5th. The 5th is not a bullet-proof shield.

Wait until it's me what? I wouldn't expect a judge to put an investment broker in jail for the rest of his life because he wouldn't decrypt a volume. Lets say that investment broker stole my 3,000$ dollars. Should he go to jail for the rest of his life, without a trial or jury because he ate the sticky note?

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If your life's saving is $3,000 you have a bigger problem.

If you are 75 and too old to work and he steals your $600,000 that you can not replace and destroys your financial security that you and your spouse worked 40 years for............................Now continue with your line of reasoning.

And the investment broker isn't facing jail for the rest of his life, he's facing jail or fines for whatever the court levies as his sentence, or Judgement if it's a civil case.

Contempt of Court charges are a separate thing, and if the broker is going to try and dodge punishment by abusing the 5th he'll sit in jail until he realizes that he might as well face the music, maybe he'll get time served.

You'd be surprised how many people have no savings at all, or at least negative net worth when savings and debt are added up.

The combination of increasing costs of living, increasing costs of real estate, and stagnating wage growth for all but the top few percent, mean that even if you don't include mortgages, a good quarter of the population has negative net worth.

To most Americans, the prospect of having anywhere near the amount investment experts say you should have in order to retire is enough to elicit uncontrollable laughter. Even without saving, most Americans are living paycheck to paycheck, and for the overwhelming majority it's not due to extravagant lifestyles.

Boomers are mostly OK, but a lot less so than they were before the fiscal collapse, but once the next generations start getting older and unable to work, we are going to have a MASSIVE geriatric poverty problem in this country, unless something huge changes.

You'd be surprised how many people have no savings at all, or at least negative net worth when savings and debt are added up.

The combination of increasing costs of living, and real estate and stagnating wage growth for all but the top few percent, mean that even if you don't include mortgages, a good quarter of the population has negative net worth.

To most Americans, the prospect of having anywhere near the amount investment experts say you should have in order to retire is enough to elicit uncontrollable laughter. Even without saving, most Americans are living paycheck to paycheck, and it's for the overwhelming majority, it's not due to extravagant lifestyles.

Boomers are mostly OK, but a lot less so than they were before the fiscal collapse, but once the next generations start getting older and unable to work, we are going to have a MASSIVE geriatric poverty problem in this country, unless something huge changes.

If you are 75 and too old to work and he steals your $600,000 that you can not replace and destroys your financial security that you and your spouse worked 40 years for............................Now continue with your line of reasoning.

And the investment broker isn't facing jail for the rest of his life, he's facing jail or fines for whatever the court levies as his sentence, or Judgement if it's a civil case.

Contempt of Court charges are a separate thing, and if the broker is going to try and dodge punishment by abusing the 5th he'll sit in jail until he realizes that he might as well face the music, maybe he'll get time served.

Now continue with your line of reasoning.

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My original line of reasoning is still in tact. If they have evidence (he didn't eat the sticky note) then he goes to jail for 10 years. If they don't have the evidence, (he physically burned the HDD) then we charge him with destruction/tampering of evidence (3 years jail... ish) Then additionally try to prosecute him with what we have for the theft. We don't put people in jail for life w/o a trial for the act of tampering with evidence.

You'd be surprised how many people have no savings at all, or at least negative net worth when savings and debt are added up.

The combination of increasing costs of living, increasing costs of real estate, and stagnating wage growth for all but the top few percent, mean that even if you don't include mortgages, a good quarter of the population has negative net worth.

To most Americans, the prospect of having anywhere near the amount investment experts say you should have in order to retire is enough to elicit uncontrollable laughter. Even without saving, most Americans are living paycheck to paycheck, and for the overwhelming majority it's not due to extravagant lifestyles.

Boomers are mostly OK, but a lot less so than they were before the fiscal collapse, but once the next generations start getting older and unable to work, we are going to have a MASSIVE geriatric poverty problem in this country, unless something huge changes.

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I've got a friend making low 6 figures and he's living pay check to paycheck and he's not a big spender. His house is modest (but it's on Long Island, but not very close to Manhattan) and he doesn't even have cable. I haven't asked how much he saves. He does have 3 fairly young kids (and rugrats are never cheap), but he's pretty thrifty. When his heater needed to be replaced (they use heating oil, if that matters), he did the entire job himself....still largely living pay check to pay check.

I've got a friend making low 6 figures and he's living pay check to paycheck and he's not a big spender. His house is modest (but it's on Long Island, but not very close to Manhattan) and he doesn't even have cable. I haven't asked how much he saves. He does have 3 fairly young kids (and rugrats are never cheap), but he's pretty thrifty. When his heater needed to be replaced (they use heating oil, if that matters), he did the entire job himself....still largely living pay check to pay check.

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Yeah, six figures is nothing these days if you live anywhere near a major city, especially if you have a family.

For urban living, even as a single person living alone, it can be tough to make ends meet at $100k

Wages usually go up as you get closer to cities, but nowhere near enough to compensate for the increased cost of living.

My original line of reasoning is still in tact. If they have evidence (he didn't eat the sticky note) then he goes to jail for 10 years. If they don't have the evidence, (he physically burned the HDD) then we charge him with destruction/tampering of evidence (3 years jail... ish) Then additionally try to prosecute him with what we have for the theft. We don't put people in jail for life w/o a trial for the act of tampering with evidence.

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He isn't in jail for life. He is in jail until he coughs up the password. It's in his court, or did you not understand this part of the contempt of court charges which are completely separate charges from what he is actually being tried for.

I've got a friend making low 6 figures and he's living pay check to paycheck and he's not a big spender. His house is modest (but it's on Long Island, but not very close to Manhattan) and he doesn't even have cable. I haven't asked how much he saves. He does have 3 fairly young kids (and rugrats are never cheap), but he's pretty thrifty. When his heater needed to be replaced (they use heating oil, if that matters), he did the entire job himself....still largely living pay check to pay check.

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I always have to ask, is he doing it all alone cause that is damned hard these days. I will admit that I am not in reasonably good position today solely on my own doing. My wife is a big part of our financial success. Who would have thought that a barber with a nine months schooling could top $60K a year. Before she started working we were on WIC and shit to subsidize my income cause an E-5 alone was poverty pay in the late 80's.

She started work at something that really paid and our financial life turned all the way around.

Cops don't convict ANYBODY. They arrest. (Or shoot...but that's a whole other can of worms. )

Prisons are NOT supposed to "reform". They restrict individuals' freedom of movement and association. That's a punishment. A whole lot of wasted time, money, and effort would be saved if our prisons would focus on the punishment aspect. Sure, have a reform system: but it only applies AFTER the punishment phase of the sentence is over. Right now, our broken system tries to do both.

Back OT: How can any court compel you to take an action which assists your prosecution?

If it's a safe and they want the key, pound sand. Or get a good drill. They want you to remember what you did on the night of the 12th? Spotlights, thumbscrews and hypnotists? C'mon. I would execute every pedophile out there and I STRONGLY aver that watching internet video of child porn is an act of evil and should be punished as severely as that meted out to individual(s) on the other side of the camera. However, if there is ample evidence that this individual engaged in pedophilia, then is there not ample evidence to bring charges without cracking his harddrive? If not, then with a warranted search, the state should be allowed to use any form of technology they can to decrypt this drive. But the state cannot compel an individual to assist. Okay, instead of "cannot", "should not".

He isn't in jail for life. He is in jail until he coughs up the password. It's in his court, or did you not understand this part of the contempt of court charges which are completely separate charges from what he is actually being tried for.

You line of reason is based on a wish, not reality.

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Who's to say he didn't forget his password? I reset a password on one site or another at least twice a month. Know why? Because I forgot the password. And yes I lost an encrypted volume before due to loss of password. I accessed it once or twice a year to store personal tax records. People forget things all the time, it happens.

Even if he did know it it also violates self incrimination. You don't need to tell prosecution things you know as products of the mind. This is why courts cannot compelling you to provide the combination to a safe. They are still free to try to get into the safe through alternate means, but you do not have to assist them in doing so.

Cops don't convict ANYBODY. They arrest. (Or shoot...but that's a whole other can of worms. )

Prisons are NOT supposed to "reform". They restrict individuals' freedom of movement and association. That's a punishment. A whole lot of wasted time, money, and effort would be saved if our prisons would focus on the punishment aspect. Sure, have a reform system: but it only applies AFTER the punishment phase of the sentence is over. Right now, our broken system tries to do both.

Back OT: How can any court compel you to take an action which assists your prosecution?

If it's a safe and they want the key, pound sand. Or get a good drill. They want you to remember what you did on the night of the 12th? Spotlights, thumbscrews and hypnotists? C'mon. I would execute every pedophile out there and I STRONGLY aver that watching internet video of child porn is an act of evil and should be punished as severely as that meted out to individual(s) on the other side of the camera. However, if there is ample evidence that this individual engaged in pedophilia, then is there not ample evidence to bring charges without cracking his harddrive? If not, then with a warranted search, the state should be allowed to use any form of technology they can to decrypt this drive. But the state cannot compel an individual to assist. Okay, instead of "cannot", "should not".

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So when Bernie Mac defrauds customers of billions and the evidence is encrypted tough shit right ?

The Judge, and it has been this way for over 200 years. The Judge decides and always has.

You do understand that if the drive requires an encryption password for usage and the computer the drive is attached to has log files showing that the drive was being used regularly every week for several months the Judge has every reason to not believe the man's claim that he forgot the password. ?

Need the password, used the password frequently, conveniently forgets it now. And he did say he "forgot it", he didn't say it was written down and destroyed or lost by accident.

The Judge, and it has been this way for over 200 years. The Judge decides and always has.

You do understand that if the drive requires an encryption password for usage and the computer the drive is attached to has log files showing that the drive was being used regularly every week for several months the Judge has every reason to not believe the man's claim that he forgot the password. ?

Need the password, used the password frequently, conveniently forgets it now. And he did say he "forgot it", he didn't say it was written down and destroyed or lost by accident.

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And who knows, maybe he had some smug look and a giggle as he said "oops I musta forgotten the password hehehehe".

Sure. Toss all those Constitutional safeguards out the window. I mean, the purpose is to nail the asshole, right? C'mon. We all know he's guilty...

To give the state the power to compel an action is to give the state the power to enslave.

Keep the hard drive, toss a monitor on the guy's ankle (since there's probable cause to arrest him, right?), and then decrypt the drive. If you cannot, then get a different warrant for his ISP. Then do that ol' detective work and find EVIDENCE which is USABLE in a COURT of LAW.

Of course, if all you want is some vigilante justice against a scumbag, that's cool, too. Just, who chooses who the scumbags are?

He isn't in jail for life. He is in jail until he coughs up the password. It's in his court, or did you not understand this part of the contempt of court charges which are completely separate charges from what he is actually being tried for.

You line of reason is based on a wish, not reality.

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Do you believe the suspect is capable of someday forgetting the password(s)? (the ruling said something about entering in three separate passwords to unlock his phone 6 and the app on it) The guy was apparently highly into encryption, so it would be interesting to see the complexity of those other passwords.

Reading the ruling is pretty interesting... https://regmedia.co.uk/2017/03/20/appeals_court_ruling.pdf "Doe’s sister testified to the fact that, while in her presence, Doe accessed child pornography files on his Mac Pro computer by means of entering passwords from memory." Also that his sister lived with him.

Do you believe the suspect is capable of someday forgetting the password(s)? (the ruling said something about entering in three separate passwords to unlock his phone 6 and the app on it) The guy was apparently highly into encryption, so it would be interesting to see the complexity of those other passwords.

Reading the ruling is pretty interesting... https://regmedia.co.uk/2017/03/20/appeals_court_ruling.pdf "Doe’s sister testified to the fact that, while in her presence, Doe accessed child pornography files on his Mac Pro computer by means of entering passwords from memory." Also that his sister lived with him.

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I do, I do think you are right, that it is possible. I am an Admin, I forget work passwords and I forget personal passwords. Sometimes it's more a case of forgetting which password is needed, I have so many to remember. I also sometimes "forget" a password and come back later and suddenly I remember what I couldn't remember before. Memory is funny that way. When going before a Promotion Board in the Army, the Army has an excepted way of stating this, "I can not recall the answer to that question at this time".

Innocent people get put in prison for crimes they didn't commit. Our Justice System is not perfect. But it is the one we have and it does rely on a jury of your peers and on the integrity of our Judges and even on lawyers if that doesn't scare you.

Some of you are very much strict adherents to the constitution, that document I swore my very life to protect back when I was really young and dumb. I know it doesn't always sound like I am a believer like yourselves but I am. But I also question myself and my beliefs because I have had my eyes opened, that I know things do change. The constitution changes as well and it is interpreted and reinterpreted all the time.

I challenge people here all the time and it's not just because I can't stand being wrong. Those who know me here will remember that I will admit when I am wrong, or at least when I accept that I am wrong. I do not fear being proven fallible. My ego is not so fragile that a mistake or error will shatter my world. But if I poke and push long enough, sometimes someone says things the right way, the way that makes me see something differently. Sometimes I help others see the other side of a coin.

Discussion is good. Questions are healthy, except in combat.

And if you guys weren't a good sounding board, I wouldn't be here checking myself and my beliefs for holes. Ideals are terrific and I believe that our country needs people who hold the ideals of our country in very high regard. But there is an old saying about being "blinded by your ideals".

Hold those ideals close to your hearts, but keep your eyes and ears open.

I always have to ask, is he doing it all alone cause that is damned hard these days. I will admit that I am not in reasonably good position today solely on my own doing. My wife is a big part of our financial success. Who would have thought that a barber with a nine months schooling could top $60K a year. Before she started working we were on WIC and shit to subsidize my income cause an E-5 alone was poverty pay in the late 80's.

She started work at something that really paid and our financial life turned all the way around.

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I don't think his wife is working right now. They've still got one kid that isn't in school. If she is working, it's a recent change. I'm suspect she'll go back to work once all the kids are in school.

I don't think his wife is working right now. They've still got one kid that isn't in school. If she is working, it's a recent change. I'm suspect she'll go back to work once all the kids are in school.

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It can be really tough on a single income, it was hard for us too.

For us though, there was this window where everything came together just right. The kids were old enough that the wife didn't have to watch them all the time. She got started working at something that pays decent. Investments in the Clinton years performed well. Later when the kids got even more expensive, I had retired from the Army and was working as a contractor and my own income increased greatly.

So there are windows of time when you might have opportunities. Look for them, take advantage of them if you can. I wish you all the best luck in this regard.

Wait until some investment broker steals your life's savings and you need their records to prove it.

"Oopps It's encrypted"

I get this, I really do. I really do understand what many of you guys are concerned about. But it just always sounds to me like many of you don't think about the other side of the coin.

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No, I do get it. You would like for laws and rights to apply as long as it benefits oneself. When it doesn't we should trample all over them because one wants the best outcome for himself and damn if he's not entitled to it.

OR

You would rather one innocent man go to jail than ten guilty ones go free.

Well it sure is great people's lives can be ruined and faits decided based on feelings and not provable facts.

No, I do get it. You would like for laws and rights to apply as long as it benefits oneself. When it doesn't we should trample all over them because one wants the best outcome for himself and damn if he's not entitled to it.
OR
You would rather one innocent man go to jail than ten guilty ones go free.

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No, you are not getting it at all. The system is what I would have work properly. That includes the rights of individuals and it includes the purview and power of the courts. It is not a one-way street.

This Judge is doing his job. If this guy thinks he's getting the shaft he can appeal and a higher court might hear the case if they think it's warranted.

In fact, if this guy does remember his password he could give it up today and get out of jail now, (if he is allowed bail), and appeal the entire thing later on. If another court rule's this Judge's actions as an over reach they would have to throw out all the evidence on the drives as a result.

You know this guy has standing right? He's a doctor, been a pediatrician for a long time. For a Judge to call his claim that he forgot his password untrue, that takes something more than it might someone else. The evidence must be significant enough to back the Judge's belief or he is risking himself making that call. Or did you think a Judge can do things half-assed without recourse and effect?

Now I will point this out again about this writer who didn't source his claims and only told part of the story. If you want to let his narrative convince you that something evil is afoot that's your choice.

But this Judge is doing his Job and part of his Job is to determine if someone is lying to the court. You can wish it weren't that way, but that is the way it is and it's the way it always has been here in the US.

No, you are not getting it at all. The system is what I would have work properly. That includes the rights of individuals and it includes the purview and power of the courts. It is not a one-way street.

This Judge is doing his job. If this guy thinks he's getting the shaft he can appeal and a higher court might hear the case if they think it's warranted.

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Just because it could be confirmed legal doesn't make it right. Lots of badthings have been made legal the past years.

In fact, if this guy does remember his password he could give it up today and get out of jail now, (if he is allowed bail), and appeal the entire thing later on. If another court rule's this Judge's actions as an over reach they would have to throw out all the evidence on the drives as a result.

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You can't seriously propose he shits himself royally only to hope for rectification later.

You know this guy has standing right? He's a doctor, been a pediatrician for a long time. For a Judge to call his claim that he forgot his password untrue, that takes something more than it might someone else. The evidence must be significant enough to back the Judge's belief or he is risking himself making that call. Or did you think a Judge can do things half-assed without recourse and effect?

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I KNOW the judge can't prove he has the password in his memory.

Now I will point this out again about this writer who didn't source his claims and only told part of the story. If you want to let his narrative convince you that something evil is afoot that's your choice.

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There is no need for a narrative or evil to make this case foul.

But this Judge is doing his Job and part of his Job is to determine if someone is lying to the court. You can wish it weren't that way, but that is the way it is and it's the way it always has been here in the US.

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I do not care for the judges feelings and that is all he has regarding the man's current brain content. To hold someone in jail without evidence is beyond awful. And that is all ignoring the fact that it shouldn't be possible to order anyone to reveal information that could lead to their imprisonment.

Go wish in one hand and shit in the other, one hand will be empty and the other full of .......

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Firstly, higher instances have yet to give their take on this. Secondly, laws aren't set in stone. Thirdly, if the law makes it ok to give judgement on unprovable feelings, we live in dark times indeed.

Firstly, higher instances have yet to give their take on this. Secondly, laws aren't set in stone. Thirdly, if the law makes it ok to give judgement on unprovable feelings, we live in dark times indeed.

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It's an assumption that any higher court is going to address this at all. If the man appeals, ummm, if he ever settles the contempt charge and returns to court, completes that and appeals. Then an Appeals court may say something different.

On any given day the law is what it is, on that given day. You are right, they are not set in stone and they are open to interpretation. But today, the way they are, this man is in contempt of court and will will remain until it changes.

And for your thirdly, perhaps I just don't get what you are trying to say. The Judge has only made one Judgement, and that is that the defendant is in contempt of court. That is not a feeling, it's a Judgement, and judges make judgements. And the Judge's judgement is not judging someone's feelings, provable or otherwise. The Judge believes, "I do not know why, this writer didn't go there", that the defendant is being untruthful claiming that he forgot his password. I don't know why, perhaps it has to do with evidence presented in court on how often the defendant accessed those hard drives and therefor how frequently he must have remembered his password previously.

I do not have the details at hand to accurately provide them to you, that you should know "why" the Judge didn't believe the defendant.

Maybe, since you claim the Judge is unreasonable, maybe you have the energy to try and dig up why the Judge found the defendant's claim false.

Not everyone the cops convict are actually guilty. I'd hope he gets his property back.

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It's been like.. 6 years, I believe, since the cops barged in and took all my stuff claiming I was downloading child porn using a program I never even heard of, much less ever had installed.. I was never even charged. Never got a damn thing back.. Last contact with them was about a month out, them telling me to quit calling them because they were busy. They seemed really pissed at me.

Talked to a lawyer and he said, nope you'll never get it back.. And implied if I kept calling and pestering them, they'd "find" something and I'd be screwed.

Sounds like an inception partition haha. I used TrueCrypts a few times, but since I was seeing the size problems, I stopped using it. It was a bit ago though so they might have made it better more recently.