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Now I'm the one who's not sure if we watched the same show/played the same game or not. Do you even read 4chan threads? There are always trolls yeah but then there's also lots of actual discussion in those threads, with some people who actually know what they're talking about. (hint: the ones who just say "Sakura a slut/shit" aren't the ones who know what they're talking about)

As for Yandere Sakura I'd have to go back again to make 100% sure on the wishing that Rin weren't there to take up Shirou and his time. But her method of "keeping him safe" at least, was by killing pretty much everyone around him, which is generally seen as Yandere by most.

The "gratuitously beating up Rider" by the way, is what is known as a Tsukiyomi (or however you spell it) and literally any character can lend itself to this part of a joke and it's not something that anyone usually takes as part of the character's character unless they repeat it really often against one person (see: Tsunderes)

Your last point cherry, I've already pointed out one instance of in the game, as much as it may have been deserved or there being nothing wrong with feeling sorry for yourself in that situation it's still something she does. That and the same scene can be seen as an extension of her feeling like she deserves the punishment she gets, just switch the "because I'm beatiful" for whatever her actual reason was, I forget what it was.

Not sure why you're calling me silly for saying she got an entire episode to herself, because she definetly did. I never said she got a lot of screentime, heck I said she was the closest of any of the heroines to the role of side character.

Now I'm the one who's not sure if we watched the same show/played the same game or not. Do you even read 4chan threads? There are always trolls yeah but then there's also lots of actual discussion in those threads, with some people who actually know what they're talking about. (hint: the ones who just say "Sakura a slut/shit" aren't the ones who know what they're talking about)

Yeah, sure there are sometimes, but that doesn't mean what they say is automatically valid. 4chan can be a hive mind sometimes.

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As for Yandere Sakura I'd have to go back again to make 100% sure on the wishing that Rin weren't there to take up Shirou and his time.

I certainly don't recall that. But, even if that was true, it doesn't make her Yandere.

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But her method of "keeping him safe" at least, was by killing pretty much everyone around him, which is generally seen as Yandere by most.

Erm, no it wasn't. At no point does she ever do that.

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The "gratuitously beating up Rider" by the way, is what is known as a Tsukiyomi (or however you spell it) and literally any character can lend itself to this part of a joke and it's not something that anyone usually takes as part of the character's character unless they repeat it really often against one person (see: Tsunderes)

Well, perhaps, but the entire episode seems to be pretty anti-Sakura. It's glorifying her abuse, for one thing.

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Your last point cherry, I've already pointed out one instance of in the game, as much as it may have been deserved or there being nothing wrong with feeling sorry for yourself in that situation it's still something she does.

When have you?

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That and the same scene can be seen as an extension of her feeling like she deserves the punishment she gets, just switch the "because I'm beatiful" for whatever her actual reason was, I forget what it was.

The reason is the general self-loathing that results from being abused for years. Which is why I don't think that that replacement is at all funny. It just totally trivialises horrific abuse.

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Not sure why you're calling me silly for saying she got an entire episode to herself, because she definetly did. I never said she got a lot of screentime, heck I said she was the closest of any of the heroines to the role of side character.

I'm calling you silly because what you said is, whilst technically true, did not in anyway support the argument you were making. She is not a side-character in Nasu's work (regardless of what you might think), whereas she is in CP, which demonstrates their general opinion of her.

I said she was the most side character-y of the heroines, and don't even try to debate that one it's flat out true, where is Sakura in Fate and UBW? Off screen that's where. Saber and Rin? In every route a heck of a lot more. Heck Saber and Rin nearly beat out Sakura (or maybe they do) for screentime in her own route due to her being bedridden for forever.

You don't think the replacement is funny, sure, just about everyone else did. My previous oint about her looking for attention was her whining to Kirei by the way.

I dont think the episode was neccesarily anti Sakura, I mean think about it, how many things in Phantasm are to be taken seriously? (in terms of actions taken, not the character themselves) Lancer doesnt in fact die every three seconds in FSN, Caster (probably) doesnt act like a housewife, etc. But at the same time they're all based on things in the game such as Lancer always dying pretty quick and/or offscreen, Caster being beyond devoted to Souchiro, etc. Which is why when we finally get back to my original point, that Caren probably acts somewhat like she does in CP, someone who enjoys smacking Lancer with wads of cash and then makign an apparition of Kirei above her, would be perhaps not as strong as in CP but still hinted in there like maybe screwing around with people's heads, or putting them in bad situations and such rather than pulling a Kirei and outright trying to torture and kill them.

And you're going to tell me that "If only x wasn't there, if only x didn't exist I could have my bf" isn't Yandere? Really?

I never said 4chan was auto valid either, heck if I said that I take it back, I just refer to specific anons as 4chan because it sounds less stupid than "this one guy who I don't actually know the name of but he was totally telling the truth" If by hive mind you mean jumping onto a joke and making "memes" out of them then sure, but a lot of them dont always beleive jokes like that and are just going for reactions from people (obviously some do)

And Sakura was certainly trying to kill Ilya, a person Shirou showed her was important to him and not tryign to kill him at all to "keep him safe"

Spoiler:

Can we just leave it there? I'll tell you right now I don't like Sakura anywhere near enough to hold a drawn out conversation about her for a lot longer

Illya seems upset in the Tiger Dojo for not getting a route (Sakura gets it instead).

But Illya is getting her own show instead where she gets to have the harem.

True, but the Ilya route would probably have been cooler (than the first 2 parts anyway, the third is pretty damn awesome) would have been cool to see some Mind of Steel (everyone always assumes that was the route Shirou went Archer, and damn if that wouldnt have been cool)

I said she was the most side character-y of the heroines, and don't even try to debate that one it's flat out true, where is Sakura in Fate and UBW? Off screen that's where. Saber and Rin? In every route a heck of a lot more. Heck Saber and Rin nearly beat out Sakura (or maybe they do) for screentime in her own route due to her being bedridden for forever.

I wouldn't call Sakura a "side-character", but I would agree she shows up less, particularly in the first two routes. However, that does not in any way justify or explain the way she's massively under-used in CP.

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You don't think the replacement is funny, sure, just about everyone else did. My previous oint about her looking for attention was her whining to Kirei by the way.

That was when she was dark, and I don't recall her "looking for attention" then anyway. She was talking to Kirei because she was fighting him.

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I dont think the episode was neccesarily anti Sakura, I mean think about it, how many things in Phantasm are to be taken seriously? (in terms of actions taken, not the character themselves) Lancer doesnt in fact die every three seconds in FSN, Caster (probably) doesnt act like a housewife, etc.

Sakura is treated a lot less sympathetically than most, though.

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But at the same time they're all based on things in the game such as Lancer always dying pretty quick and/or offscreen, Caster being beyond devoted to Souchiro, etc. Which is why when we finally get back to my original point, that Caren probably acts somewhat like she does in CP, someone who enjoys smacking Lancer with wads of cash and then makign an apparition of Kirei above her, would be perhaps not as strong as in CP but still hinted in there like maybe screwing around with people's heads, or putting them in bad situations and such rather than pulling a Kirei and outright trying to torture and kill them.

Except that Sakura was nothing like what she's like in canon, so that demonstrates that it is entirely possible they've got it wrong. In particular, I think that CP plays on the perceptions of the character (particularly those of the author) rather than the actual nature of the character, and Sakura is perceived as Yandere even though she's not.

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And you're going to tell me that "If only x wasn't there, if only x didn't exist I could have my bf" isn't Yandere? Really?

Not massively, no. People do lament issues with their relationships.

But, even if it were in a general case, in the specific case Sakura is in it is not, because Rin is important to her in her own right, and she has considerable issues over Rin for a very good reason. Further, her worry was not Rin taking Shirou but Rin killing Shirou. That's very different.

Plus, like I said, it never happened anyway, so the point is totally moot.

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I never said 4chan was auto valid either, heck if I said that I take it back, I just refer to specific anons as 4chan because it sounds less stupid than "this one guy who I don't actually know the name of but he was totally telling the truth" If by hive mind you mean jumping onto a joke and making "memes" out of them then sure, but a lot of them dont always beleive jokes like that and are just going for reactions from people (obviously some do)

Well, see, again, one anon on 4chan is not necessarily going to be right. They have opinions, yes, but so do I, and I am just as knowledgeable as they are if not more so.

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And Sakura was certainly trying to kill Ilya, a person Shirou showed her was important to him

When? At what point does Sakura attempt to kill Ilya?

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not tryign to kill him at all to "keep him safe"

Again, when?

The shadow is not Sakura. It's linked to her, yes, and acting on her subconscious thoughts, but it's not her and she isn't responsible for the actions it takes. Further, even the shadow never attempts to kill Shirou, at least not specifically. It might attack him once or twice, but only because it's hungry.

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Spoiler:

Can we just leave it there? I'll tell you right now I don't like Sakura anywhere near enough to hold a drawn out conversation about her for a lot longer

Yeah, well, I do, so....

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Originally Posted by Spamamdorf

True, but the Ilya route would probably have been cooler (than the first 2 parts anyway, the third is pretty damn awesome) would have been cool to see some Mind of Steel (everyone always assumes that was the route Shirou went Archer, and damn if that wouldnt have been cool)

Ilya's route wouldn't have been Mind of Steel, MoS Shirou betrays Ilya just as much as he does Sakura. Also, it's not Archer's past either, Archer stuck to and believed in his ideal of saving everyone to the end, MoS Shirou has already abandoned it. A post-MoS Archer wouldn't have the same issues with the way he ended up as a Counter Guardian.

For the mind of steel thing, I specifically said that that's what people think it would be, not that it actually would, it's usually based on the scene where Archer loses to Berserker because he doesnt want to hurt Ilya that people think this. And it wouldn't be Shirou as Archer, just Shirou on his way to becoming Archer.

And now I see why we have such differing views on Sakura, you don't think her shadow version counts as her while I count it (I mean after all. Shadow just so happens to never really go after Shirou, Sakura's shadow version as well while she threatens Shirou once or twice she never really goes through with it and it looks like she wants to scare him away from danger) heck I think Kirei straight up tells her that her shadow version is quite a bit a part of her as well (and before you tell me "but Kirei lies all the time" there's no reason for him to lie to her when he made it obvious he gives no ****s what happens to her during their conversation (which leads on to the attention point, she wasn't just trying to fight Kirei since he pretty much says "stop talking to me I really dont care let's just fight and get it over with" and she keeps going anyways going all "you don't understand" until he has to tell her again he doesn't give a f***.

Now, you telling me that you most likely know more and are more right than a guy you havent even met is what really gets me laughing here, that's more than slightly wrong. There's always someone smarter, who knows more, and you're not even saying that you're smarter than the average anon, but smarter than most everyone who thinks that they know a thing or two about FSN and gets down to actually have discussions about it more or less everyday.

The rest I'm going to kind of disregard because at this point we're really just going in circles with the "Sakura is a Yandere" "no she's not" buisness, I'll just say she displays some of what she does in CP in a more subdued and far fewer in between fashion, and that most every other character is played more or less straight leaving it more than likely Caren is at least close to her CP incarnation in a few ways and we'll call it a day I hope.

For the mind of steel thing, I specifically said that that's what people think it would be, not that it actually would

Sure, doesn't make them any less wrong.

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it's usually based on the scene where Archer loses to Berserker because he doesnt want to hurt Ilya that people think this.

You mean the scene that distinctly doesn't happen in the MoS route...?

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And it wouldn't be Shirou as Archer, just Shirou on his way to becoming Archer.

Yeah, I gathered that. It's still wrong....

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And now I see why we have such differing views on Sakura, you don't think her shadow version counts as her while I count it (I mean after all. Shadow just so happens to never really go after Shirou, Sakura's shadow version as well while she threatens Shirou once or twice she never really goes through with it and it looks like she wants to scare him away from danger)

I never said the shadow never had any connection to Sakura, but she is not directly responsible for its actions.

Spoiler for the nature of the shadow:

The shadow is Angra Mainyu seeping out through Sakura. It acts based on her subconscious and Zouken's instructions (presumably filtered through her subconscious). It acts mainly on subconscious desires like "I'm hungry" and "must obey Zouken", as opposed to her higher functions, which include things like morality. So, whilst it does demonstrate some aspects of her character, like not wanting to harm Shirou and a certain amount of resentment for Rin, it does not demonstrate anything fundamental about her as a person.

If the shadow was released through Rin, it would act in much the same way as it does through Sakura, which is to eat people to feed its hunger. The only difference would be in the preferences.

But, even if you do count the shadow, Sakura still doesn't count as "Yandere". The shadow attacks indiscriminately, and even Shirou isn't entirely safe.

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heck I think Kirei straight up tells her that her shadow version is quite a bit a part of her as well (and before you tell me "but Kirei lies all the time" there's no reason for him to lie to her when he made it obvious he gives no ****s what happens to her during their conversation (which leads on to the attention point, she wasn't just trying to fight Kirei since he pretty much says "stop talking to me I really dont care let's just fight and get it over with" and she keeps going anyways going all "you don't understand" until he has to tell her again he doesn't give a f***.

Actually, you're confusing the shadow with Dark Sakura. The two are not the same.

Spoiler for the shadow and Dark Sakura:

The shadow is Sakura's subconscious being twisted by Angra Mainyu, whereas with Dark Sakura she has regained some level of conscious control. However, Angra Mainyu is still heavily influencing her, making her prone to follow darker impulses and boosting her darker emotions.

Even so, though, what Kotomine saying, is, as usual, bending the truth to suit his own ends. The game makes it explicitly clear when Sakura turns Dark that her consciousness has changed. It actually says as much, in almost those exact words. Normal Sakura is still there, but Angra Mainyu is over-writing her and taking control of her body and mind.

It's also noticeable that, for all she's supposed to be "evil", Dark Sakura doesn't actually do very much that would fit. She kills a grand total of three people, all of whom were basically self-defence and all of whom were scum. Her attempts to fight Rin were basically a shout for attention rather than a real desire to hurt her (she just wants Rin to acknowledge her as strong and a worthy sister), and she even allows Rin and Shirou to live when she could easily have killed them.

The only person she would have intentionally killed if she had the chance is Ilya, and that's no different from the intentions of any other master who desired to win the Grail War. Even Rin would probably have done that if she'd not known the Grail was corrupted and hadn't met Shirou.

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Now, you telling me that you most likely know more and are more right than a guy you havent even met is what really gets me laughing here, that's more than slightly wrong. There's always someone smarter, who knows more, and you're not even saying that you're smarter than the average anon, but smarter than most everyone who thinks that they know a thing or two about FSN and gets down to actually have discussions about it more or less everyday.

No, I'm not, I'm just saying that I know more about FSN than the average anon because, unlike them, I have been discussing it for three years or so.

I don't know what exactly you're getting from 4chan, but in general I do not find it a trustworthy source of information, not least because you have no idea if the guy speaking has the foggiest clue what they're talking about, or has even played the game.

But, more to the point, "some guy on 4chan said so" is not a valid reason to believe something without question. I am certain I know more than most people on 4chan, although not all of them, and I have no reason to believe this guy you are talking about was doing anything other than talking out of his ass.

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The rest I'm going to kind of disregard because at this point we're really just going in circles with the "Sakura is a Yandere" "no she's not" buisness, I'll just say she displays some of what she does in CP in a more subdued and far fewer in between fashion, and that most every other character is played more or less straight leaving it more than likely Caren is at least close to her CP incarnation in a few ways and we'll call it a day I hope.

I do not think that is true, though. From what I can tell of CP her characterisation there is very different from her real characterisation, particularly in "her" episode. The Yandere stuff I can buy because, whilst she isn't one at all, she does get flanderised into one quite a lot and I can understand why people do that. But the whole "I like being abused because it makes me special" thing is just rubbish.

I have no idea what you're even on at this point, of course the Ilya and Archer scene I mentioend didnt happen on MoS? Because MoS was just an idea, something people wanted to happen but hasnt happened yet? No freaking duh that scene wasn't on it?

And now I can see why you're claiming to be so knowledgeable, you're a bit of a self important guy seems to be the issue. You're first ad third points you can't just say so simply clear cut, they're wrong. Unless you're from the future you dont know what's on the Ilya route that didnt happen you cant say anyone's musings are straight up right or wrong, you can say one is more likely than another, but you dont actually know what the heck was on it, so stop trying to pretend you know if a guy's guess about something that didnt end up happening is right or wrong.

Your point on talking about FSN for several years is also pretty hilarious to me, because all of that works exactly the same way the other way around, how the heck am I supposed to know if you have any idea what you're talking about? How do I know if you've played the game? "some guy called Cherry told me" isnt a valid reason to beleive anything either and I don't know if you're just talking out your ass either. Oh sure I could go back through your posts because you're not an anon, but that doesnt mean any of those old posts aren't you talking out your ass either. The average anon who again, I specified as one of the ones who was a)in a thread talking about it b) not being a troll and trying to get discussion going and c) has played the game since they use specific quotes and scenes from the game to back up their points, these are the ones I'm talking about talking to, the ones that you say, "Yes I'm almost definetly smarter than them, I'm sure no one at all played the game at the same time I did and went onto the biggest anime board on the internet to talk about it and still do so today, no siree I'm the only one"

At this point I already made my "last" hopeful "let's leave it at that" type post and don't care enough about Sakura or whether you know something or not to keep going through it, if we were discussing someone interesting like we started with Caren, then maybe but all this back and forth over Sakura? Ehhh....

I have no idea what you're even on at this point, of course the Ilya and Archer scene I mentioend didnt happen on MoS? Because MoS was just an idea, something people wanted to happen but hasnt happened yet? No freaking duh that scene wasn't on it?

It also wouldn't happen if Archer were MoS Shirou, because MoS Shirou does not care about anything other than stopping the war. If he's willing to murder the girl he loves in cold blood he ain't going to risk the world dying to protect Ilya.

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And now I can see why you're claiming to be so knowledgeable, you're a bit of a self important guy seems to be the issue. You're first ad third points you can't just say so simply clear cut, they're wrong.

If you know anything whatsoever about the story you absolutely can say that.

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Unless you're from the future you dont know what's on the Ilya route that didnt happen you cant say anyone's musings are straight up right or wrong, you can say one is more likely than another, but you dont actually know what the heck was on it, so stop trying to pretend you know if a guy's guess about something that didnt end up happening is right or wrong.

No, but I know enough about MoS Shirou to say for certain that he would not end up on an Ilya route. Aside from the fact that he quite explicitly rejects her in heading down that path, MoS Shirou's intentions are to just end the war, which means killing all the other masters.

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Your point on talking about FSN for several years is also pretty hilarious to me, because all of that works exactly the same way the other way around, how the heck am I supposed to know if you have any idea what you're talking about? How do I know if you've played the game? "some guy called Cherry told me" isnt a valid reason to beleive anything either and I don't know if you're just talking out your ass either. Oh sure I could go back through your posts because you're not an anon, but that doesnt mean any of those old posts aren't you talking out your ass either.

Yeah, well, I can at least actually put forward evidence and sensible argument, which is more than you have at any point managed to do.

And, like you said, at least you can go back and look at my previous posts. You can't do that with an anon.

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The average anon who again, I specified as one of the ones who was a)in a thread talking about it b) not being a troll and trying to get discussion going and c) has played the game since they use specific quotes and scenes from the game to back up their points, these are the ones I'm talking about talking to, the ones that you say, "Yes I'm almost definetly smarter than them, I'm sure no one at all played the game at the same time I did and went onto the biggest anime board on the internet to talk about it and still do so today, no siree I'm the only one"

That doesn't mean they know what they are talking about, and since what they're saying is outright wrong I can assure you they don't.

You can believe whatever you want to believe, but I have provided plenty of evidence for my viewpoint, whereas all you have managed is "well, some anon told me" and "well, obviously they're the same despite the whole game demonstrating they're not".

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At this point I already made my "last" hopeful "let's leave it at that" type post and don't care enough about Sakura or whether you know something or not to keep going through it, if we were discussing someone interesting like we started with Caren, then maybe but all this back and forth over Sakura? Ehhh....

Location: Where there are no mallets or tentacles.... and the female cast of Tenjou Tenge is mine, all mine!

Age: 32

All this over a difference of opinion, just show the guy a let's play, so he gets accurate info, and honestly, not give a crap about Sakura haters. It is a waste of energy talking to someone who takes opinions on 4chan seriously without checking himself, especially when "facts" presented are often hilariously out of context and doctored for character bashing.

You can hardly talk about over-reacting to a difference of opinion....

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It is a waste of energy talking to someone who takes opinions on 4chan seriously without checking himself, especially when "facts" presented are often hilariously out of context and doctored for character bashing.

See, unlike you, I feel that it's better to actually point this out to the guy rather than ignore him. And, unlike you, I also don't expect everyone to be a carbon copy of me, and unlike you I also do not treat people like shit when they actually think for theirselves rather than blindly obeying me even when I do not have a clue what I am talking about.

Dang it Avalon, you c(XD LOL)-block Shirou and Reinforce, but don't protect his mind in other ways? What is wrong, you woman?
Friendship, be made! Magical power, gather! Starlight Breaker.... this world!

Yeah. I guess she's more progressive than Tokiomi (who hates using printers...)

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Dang it Avalon, you c(XD LOL)-block Shirou and Reinforce, but don't protect his mind in other ways? What is wrong, you woman?
Friendship, be made! Magical power, gather! Starlight Breaker.... this world!

I don't think Rin generally uses much in the way of technology, for the same reason as Tokiomi. Magi just use magical alternatives, although I think Rin is somewhat less of an "ordinary" magus than Tokiomi was, and also has less access to the alternatives.

However, whilst "Rin is bad with technology" is a common parody, I'm not entirely sure if it's actually canon. I don't think it ever shows up in any of the unambigiously canonical works (Carnival Phantasm doesn't count).

Dang it Avalon, you c(XD LOL)-block Shirou and Reinforce, but don't protect his mind in other ways? What is wrong, you woman?
Friendship, be made! Magical power, gather! Starlight Breaker.... this world!

I'm confused as to which version of the Light Novel I'm playing. I heard there was an Updated Re-release on the Playstation that had extra content, voice acting but no H Scenes. The version I'm playing doesn't have the extra content I've heard about (particularly an extra ending in the Fate Route) but it does have full voice acting (in every thing but the H Scenes?). So am I playing some kind of combination of the two that doesn't include the extra ending for some reason?

You only get the extra ending after completing all three routes. And the voices were ripped from the PS2 version and patched into the PC version. You'll notice the voices turn off when the H-scenes start for this reason.