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People that wanted big law that didn't get it seem to be bottom of the barrel, or made serious mistakes in bidding.

That isn't pre-disaster time placement. People on TLS in 2008 weren't bullshitting when they said t14 = biglaw.

But 2008 was an anomalous year, wasn't it? It seems strange for a firm of less than 2,000 attorneys to hire 300+ SAs in a single year, as Skadden did just prior to the collapse. It seems like the big firms were kind of out of control with their hiring for a few years at the height of the bubble--just like they may have over-reacted with their layoffs and class reductions the past couple of years.

People that wanted big law that didn't get it seem to be bottom of the barrel, or made serious mistakes in bidding.

That isn't pre-disaster time placement. People on TLS in 2008 weren't bullshitting when they said t14 = biglaw.

But 2008 was an anomalous year, wasn't it? It seems strange for a firm of less than 2,000 attorneys to hire 300+ SAs in a single year, as Skadden did just prior to the collapse. It seems like the big firms were kind of out of control with their hiring for a few years at the height of the bubble--just like they may have over-reacted with their layoffs and class reductions the past couple of years.

It wasn't just 08. It was all the middle 00's. Before then I have no clue.

Either way, I think we are basically back to a new normal. There isn't going to be a hiring frenzy. But it doesn't seem like we are at 2005-2008 hiring. But for t14's that doesn't mean a whole lot. Mostly it seems like you just end up at a less selective firm than you might have in 2006.

This is probably why OCI at non t14 is still really fucking shitty. The number of SA slots is still low, but enough for the t14 to get their fill. Back in boom times they had to hire at Notre Dame because literally all the t14 who weren't autistic were already going to a firm.

People that wanted big law that didn't get it seem to be bottom of the barrel, or made serious mistakes in bidding.

That isn't pre-disaster time placement. People on TLS in 2008 weren't bullshitting when they said t14 = biglaw.

But 2008 was an anomalous year, wasn't it? It seems strange for a firm of less than 2,000 attorneys to hire 300+ SAs in a single year, as Skadden did just prior to the collapse. It seems like the big firms were kind of out of control with their hiring for a few years at the height of the bubble--just like they may have over-reacted with their layoffs and class reductions the past couple of years.

It wasn't just 08. It was all the middle 00's. Before then I have no clue.

Either way, I think we are basically back to a new normal. There isn't going to be a hiring frenzy. But it doesn't seem like we are at 2005-2008 hiring. But for t14's that doesn't mean a whole lot. Mostly it seems like you just end up at a less selective firm than you might have in 2006.

This is probably why OCI at non t14 is still really fucking shitty. The number of SA slots is still low, but enough for the t14 to get their fill. Back in boom times they had to hire at Notre Dame because literally all the t14 who weren't autistic were already going to a firm.

I'd say that as a whole, people here are at less preftigious firms than they would've gotten in 2008, if that's what's most important to them in a biglaw jerb.

however, i think the difficulty of getting a biglaw job period--i.e. salary-wise--is probably close to what it was pre-recession, if not on its way there.

Guchster wrote:I'd say that as a whole, people here are at less preftigious firms than they would've gotten in 2008, if that's what's most important to them in a biglaw jerb.

however, i think the difficulty of getting a biglaw job period--i.e. salary-wise--is probably close to what it was pre-recession, if not on its way there.

I don't think the ease of getting a job is the same. Because it seems like a lot of people are skating by with 1 offer, or having to hustle mass mailing. People with shitty grades are worse off because there isn't a huge demand for t14 jds. They have to show their worth somehow.

Though I think the chances of getting a jerb are within 10% of what they were, at the T14 at least.

But I think if you are willing to hustle smartly t14= biglawl with you don't have autism.

Anonymous User wrote:Your friend is dreaming unless she is thinking of working for free for a legal assistance organization. While there are a lot of stories flying around, it seems the 2L students at the lower ranked schools are having incredible difficulties landing a paying gig this year. I have loads of friends with good rankings SOL so far.

Amen. At a T2 and only the people in the top 15% or so or those with ties have paying good jobs. Everyone else is scrambling waiting for the few small firm positions that will likely open up in March or April.

Everyone I know who partcipated in EIW and did not limit themselves to a non-NYC market received an offer. Even the few who did limit themselves to other markets later managed to get offers although not necessarily in the target market.

Only people who I know who are still looking are those who chose not to partcipate in EIW and I do not know the real extent of their job hunting efforts at present.

NYU also, and my experience is very much the same. Every single person with whom I am even remotely acquainted has a job lined up. People openly talk about which firms they are going to (not in a bragging way, but in a comfortable way that indicates the assumption that pretty much everyone around them is set as well). I am on a secondary journal, and do office hours with 7 people. All of them have V20 and higher firms lined up. I am friends with a group of 8 or 9 transfers. Many have V10's, a few V20's, a V50. Hell, I know kids around median who are set with top firms. NYC certainly was the market to recover the fastest, and the top NYC schools are really reaping the benefits of it now. Can't wait to see if the stats confirm my observations when they come out in a year or 2. Perhaps my samples are a bit skewed (transfers, journal folks, etc. tend to always do well), but I think the overall vibe is very good here.

Anonymous User wrote:so is it the case that the hiring for t10s, at least, is back to the pre-recession level?

I would argue that for the T6, things are getting close to pre-recession levels. HYS were pretty much recession-proof already, so its not like they needed much recovery. And CLS and NYU are both in the strongest market that recovered the fastest. I'm sure Chicago did well to, as it always does due to its small size and the reputation in Chicago. Can't say with as much certainty for T7-T10, but for T6, I'd say things are starting to look good again for the most part.

InGoodFaith wrote:I always feel like whenever I see these threads, the people that went k-JD AND also have "subpar" grades (whatever that means) are the ones most likely in this position. Maybe that's just because I'm trying to convince myself that my WE is super important. Someone smack me if I'm wrong.

@ T7-T10, i know a student at median who got V20 coming from the right market, and I know someone who was ranked under the bottom 10% who got V150-V200 (not quite sure how). That being said, i would say about 20-25% of the 2Ls I talk to don't have anything lined up yet.. (private or public, paying or free).

I don't know how to answer how "below median" people did at my DNC, but I do know that most people have firm jobs lined up that wanted them. I would guess about 30% of OCI participants don't have anything. I am not going to assume they were all bottom half, but maybe they were.

InGoodFaith wrote:I always feel like whenever I see these threads, the people that went k-JD AND also have "subpar" grades (whatever that means) are the ones most likely in this position. Maybe that's just because I'm trying to convince myself that my WE is super important. Someone smack me if I'm wrong.

@ T7-T10, i know a student at median who got V20 coming from the right market, and I know someone who was ranked under the bottom 10% who got V150-V200 (not quite sure how). That being said, i would say about 20-25% of the 2Ls I talk to don't have anything lined up yet.. (private or public, paying or free).

InGoodFaith wrote:I always feel like whenever I see these threads, the people that went k-JD AND also have "subpar" grades (whatever that means) are the ones most likely in this position. Maybe that's just because I'm trying to convince myself that my WE is super important. Someone smack me if I'm wrong.

@ T7-T10, i know a student at median who got V20 coming from the right market, and I know someone who was ranked under the bottom 10% who got V150-V200 (not quite sure how). That being said, i would say about 20-25% of the 2Ls I talk to don't have anything lined up yet.. (private or public, paying or free).

People that wanted big law that didn't get it seem to be bottom of the barrel, or made serious mistakes in bidding.

That isn't pre-disaster time placement. People on TLS in 2008 weren't bullshitting when they said t14 = biglaw.

This is something I wonder about. Looking at Chambers, many firms have slashed their classed 50-75%. Admitting it was really fucking hard to find a job and lots of my friends still can't find work, exactly who was getting jobs in 2008? Even 100% of the T14s would fill all the historical summer slots that no longer exist.

Are you asking who outside the T14? Top 10% at most schools had a good shot.

I think we're at pre-boom levels. But I also worry that some firms (Cleary, DPW) have been binging themselves again.

Anonymous User wrote:OP here: if i had to guess, it seems like at my t10, about 25% or so are still looking and i know for a fact that a good number (have no idea %-wise) of 3Ls are still looking as well. All this seems to track pretty close what the posters above have been saying.

Can you break the range down more than T10? I'm at M and anecdotally I can only think of one person without a job. Even those that wanted secondary markets seem to have found them.

You're at M and you only know one person without a job?? I don't know who you know but that is NOT representative. There are a significant number of us without jobs.

Anonymous User wrote:OP here: if i had to guess, it seems like at my t10, about 25% or so are still looking and i know for a fact that a good number (have no idea %-wise) of 3Ls are still looking as well. All this seems to track pretty close what the posters above have been saying.

Can you break the range down more than T10? I'm at M and anecdotally I can only think of one person without a job. Even those that wanted secondary markets seem to have found them.

You're at M and you only know one person without a job?? I don't know who you know but that is NOT representative. There are a significant number of us without jobs.

I believe blowhard was referring to 2L's (he is a 2L). I'm sure the story is very different for 3L's. Anecdotally, pretty much all of the 2L's I know have something lined up for the summer, though several are at smaller firms or PI positions that don't lead to guaranteed long-term jobs.

Anonymous User wrote:OP here: if i had to guess, it seems like at my t10, about 25% or so are still looking and i know for a fact that a good number (have no idea %-wise) of 3Ls are still looking as well. All this seems to track pretty close what the posters above have been saying.

Can you break the range down more than T10? I'm at M and anecdotally I can only think of one person without a job. Even those that wanted secondary markets seem to have found them.

You're at M and you only know one person without a job?? I don't know who you know but that is NOT representative. There are a significant number of us without jobs.

I believe blowhard was referring to 2L's (he is a 2L). I'm sure the story is very different for 3L's. Anecdotally, pretty much all of the 2L's I know have something lined up for the summer, though several are at smaller firms or PI positions that don't lead to guaranteed long-term jobs.

Everyone I know who partcipated in EIW and did not limit themselves to a non-NYC market received an offer. Even the few who did limit themselves to other markets later managed to get offers although not necessarily in the target market.

Only people who I know who are still looking are those who chose not to partcipate in EIW and I do not know the real extent of their job hunting efforts at present.

NYU also, and my experience is very much the same. Every single person with whom I am even remotely acquainted has a job lined up. People openly talk about which firms they are going to (not in a bragging way, but in a comfortable way that indicates the assumption that pretty much everyone around them is set as well). I am on a secondary journal, and do office hours with 7 people. All of them have V20 and higher firms lined up. I am friends with a group of 8 or 9 transfers. Many have V10's, a few V20's, a V50. Hell, I know kids around median who are set with top firms. NYC certainly was the market to recover the fastest, and the top NYC schools are really reaping the benefits of it now. Can't wait to see if the stats confirm my observations when they come out in a year or 2. Perhaps my samples are a bit skewed (transfers, journal folks, etc. tend to always do well), but I think the overall vibe is very good here.

Anecdotal CLS follow up:

I know of only one person who does not have a firm job. Everyone else does, and it was fairly common in the fall to talk to other people about "where everyone is going for the summer." Although i did feel really bad for the 1 person i know who struck out when some people who didn't know asked him/her about the summer, and s/he replied 'still looking.' Although a few others I know, including myself, barely got by with only 1 offer (albeit myself and others got that 1 offer from different V30 firms).

Biglaw (defined as V100) seems guaranteed, with the majority going to V20 firms. that doesn't make it pre-recession in terms of the number of people going to the most prestigious firms, but pre-recession in the sense that it seems like a golden ticket to biglaw.

Everyone I know who partcipated in EIW and did not limit themselves to a non-NYC market received an offer. Even the few who did limit themselves to other markets later managed to get offers although not necessarily in the target market.

Only people who I know who are still looking are those who chose not to partcipate in EIW and I do not know the real extent of their job hunting efforts at present.

NYU also, and my experience is very much the same. Every single person with whom I am even remotely acquainted has a job lined up. People openly talk about which firms they are going to (not in a bragging way, but in a comfortable way that indicates the assumption that pretty much everyone around them is set as well). I am on a secondary journal, and do office hours with 7 people. All of them have V20 and higher firms lined up. I am friends with a group of 8 or 9 transfers. Many have V10's, a few V20's, a V50. Hell, I know kids around median who are set with top firms. NYC certainly was the market to recover the fastest, and the top NYC schools are really reaping the benefits of it now. Can't wait to see if the stats confirm my observations when they come out in a year or 2. Perhaps my samples are a bit skewed (transfers, journal folks, etc. tend to always do well), but I think the overall vibe is very good here.

Anecdotal CLS follow up:

I know of only one person who does not have a firm job. Everyone else does, and it was fairly common in the fall to talk to other people about "where everyone is going for the summer." Although i did feel really bad for the 1 person i know who struck out when some people who didn't know asked him/her about the summer, and s/he replied 'still looking.' Although a few others I know, including myself, barely got by with only 1 offer (albeit myself and others got that 1 offer from different V30 firms).

Biglaw (defined as V100) seems guaranteed, with the majority going to V20 firms. that doesn't make it pre-recession in terms of the number of people going to the most prestigious firms, but pre-recession in the sense that it seems like a golden ticket to biglaw.

Good to know that CLS is having a similar experience. Not surprised at all either. NYC was the fastest to recover, and this is where so many of the jobs are located. So you had to expect that CLS and NYU would be able to really reap the benefits. Really good time to be at either school right now, it seems. Your experiences sound exactly like mine at NYU, in that a V100 firm seemed essentially guaranteed for anyone with halfway decent grades, a good personality, and perhaps a bit of work experience (though I know many people who got good jobs without any WE). I think that when the data comes out in 2013 for our OCI in 2011, CLS and NYU will be very close to the top.

Anonymous User wrote: a V100 firm seemed essentially guaranteed for anyone with halfway decent grades, a good personality, and perhaps a bit of work experience (though I know many people who got good jobs without any WE). I think that when the data comes out in 2013 for our OCI in 2011, CLS and NYU will be very close to the top.

Anonymous User wrote:so is it the case that the hiring for t10s, at least, is back to the pre-recession level?

I would argue that for the T6, things are getting close to pre-recession levels. HYS were pretty much recession-proof already, so its not like they needed much recovery. And CLS and NYU are both in the strongest market that recovered the fastest. I'm sure Chicago did well to, as it always does due to its small size and the reputation in Chicago. Can't say with as much certainty for T7-T10, but for T6, I'd say things are starting to look good again for the most part.

With all the jobs that have been cut at big firms, why would you think that hiring is back to pre- recession hiring? It seems like all this data is anecdotal. Does anyone have actual data ? I know that somewhere there was a thread where people posted the size and school of the SA at their firm. I think that people without jobs tend not to post. In part, they dont post because they get comments that imply that it is their own fault they don't have a job.

I think if you are T20 or better, things are pretty good and the bulk of the classes have decent gigs lined up for the summer. For the lower tier schools, the picture is not so good. I would be surprised if 50% have anything decent lined up and are waiting for the few small and mid size SA positions that should open up this month and next month.

Anonymous User wrote:so is it the case that the hiring for t10s, at least, is back to the pre-recession level?

I would argue that for the T6, things are getting close to pre-recession levels. HYS were pretty much recession-proof already, so its not like they needed much recovery. And CLS and NYU are both in the strongest market that recovered the fastest. I'm sure Chicago did well to, as it always does due to its small size and the reputation in Chicago. Can't say with as much certainty for T7-T10, but for T6, I'd say things are starting to look good again for the most part.

With all the jobs that have been cut at big firms, why would you think that hiring is back to pre- recession hiring? It seems like all this data is anecdotal. Does anyone have actual data ? I know that somewhere there was a thread where people posted the size and school of the SA at their firm. I think that people without jobs tend not to post. In part, they dont post because they get comments that imply that it is their own fault they don't have a job.

The school year's not even over yet, so obviously, you can't gather any definitive data, but I agree. There's definitely a self-selection bias going on in this thread that paints a much rosier picture than even the OCI threads. People without jobs are unlikely to talk to other people about their situations, much less go on an internet message board to broadcast it to the world.

Of course people without jerbs are not going to talk about it much with all the egos and oneupsmanship that goes on. By reading the 3L threads I can only assume their problems are the same as the 2Ls - no jobs for many.