Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

Is there a letter from Schlegelberger to Lammers in which 1going to have to brief the Fuhrer. Can we talk about it? 2A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Which document is this? 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think you must if you can -- I know it is 4difficult for you, but if you can help me a little as to 5where one finds that document? 6MR IRVING: I have only been given a very truncated version of 7the Schlegelberger bundle, I am afraid. 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: I see. 9MR IRVING: It will be in the Schlegelberger bundle, one of the 1025 pages, with a complete translation of that letter. It 11will be dated March 1942. I have provided your Lordship 12in that bundle with the complete translation of it. It is 13about a whole page letter. 14MR RAMPTON: I do not have the translation. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think it is page 13? 16A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Page 2 is the translation that I have got in J1. 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well done. We have found it. 18MR RAMPTON: It is the document with 155 at the top right 19corner and 371 at the bottom. 20A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 21MR IRVING: Would you agree with my brief gloss on it, that is 22Schlegelberger saying that he has read the report on March 236th conference, things appear to be brewing, someone is 24going to have to discuss this with the Fuhrer, can I meet 25you first? 26A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, not precisely. It is important to say that it says,

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1"My assistant has just briefed me on the result of the 2meeting of the 6th of the 3rd about the treatment of Jews 3and mixed race Jews". Then he goes on to say that there 4are decisions in preparation which he says are completely 5impossible, as you say. Then he wants to have a talk with 6Lammers about this because of this. Yes. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
Before the matter goes up to the Fuhrer, is that right? 8A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
"As the outcome of the talks is to form the basis for the 9decision of the Fuhrer, it would be urgently desirable for 10me to have a personal talk with you in good time about the 11affair". 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
Would you agree this helps us to narrow down the period 13when the meeting, the date of the memorandum? 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It is an indication, yes. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
Was there a meeting then between Schlegelberger and 16Lammers in consequence of this? Did Lammers write back a 17three or four line letter saying, sure, let us meet? 18A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
What date is that letter, please? 20A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That is 18th March, and Lammers says he is coming back to 21Berlin at the end of the month. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
At the end of March he is going to come back to Berlin? 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
He offers to meet Schlegelberger on this matter, whatever 25the matter is? 26A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, that is right.

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1Q.
[Mr Irving]
To which matter we will certainly come back, I assure 2you. 3A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It is pretty obviously a reply to the previous letter, 4which is about the treatment of Jews and mixed race Jews. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
So, on the balance of probabilities, the meeting between 6Lammers and Schlegelberger was some time at the end of 7March, or possibly running on into early April, as other 8historians suggest now? 9A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
Jaeckel suggested it may have been a meeting on April 1110th, which he has identified. 12A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
There is no point really quibbling one way about ten days, 14is there? We can accept therefore that, on the balance of 15probabilities, if the 1942 scenario is correct, this was 16when the meeting took place between Lammers and 17Schlegelberger? 18A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It looks like it, yes. There are other possibilities in 19this very uncertain document. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
So? 21A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That is one possible interpretation. We are dealing with 22matters of interpretation here. 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
So if we can accept this is a minute written by or 24dictated by Schlegelberger -- and that is an "if" -- then 25when he begins by saying, "Reichsminister Lammers informed 26me", he may very well, on the balance of probabilities, be

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1talking about something he has heard at the end of March 2or early April 1942? 3A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Indeed, yes. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
About the Hitler desire that the solution of the Jewish 5problem be postponed until after the war is over? 6A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
Does your Lordship wish to ask any further questions about 8the dating of the document? 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: No. If I may say so, you have put it very 10clearly. 11MR IRVING: Thank you very much. 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: May I just ask one question? 13MR IRVING: Yes. 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor Evans, is there anything (and 15I cannot remember) between the date when Lammers says, 16"Yes, we can meet", and the date, the assumed date, on 17the 1942 hypothesis of the Schlegelberger memorandum, to 18indicate what the discussions were? 19A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No. It follows from the -- it all follows from the 20meeting of March 6th. So there is -- it is an inference 21that the so-called Schlegelberger memorandum belongs in 22that period. 23Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
What I am really getting at, is there any evidence what 24the substantive discussion was about, whether it was about 25Jews generally or whether it was about Mischlinger -- 26sorry?

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1MR IRVING: That is what we are going to be dealing with in 2this part of the cross-examination, my Lord. 3A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It would appear that what we are calling a Schlegelberger 4memorandum is the indication we have that there was a 5meeting or to suggest that there was a meeting. 6MR IRVING: Now we will tackle the topic, Professor Evans. We 7will try to mutually and jointly arrive at some conclusion 8as to what was discussed in these deliberations. There 9were two meetings of importance early in 1942, were there 10not? There was the Wannsee conference on January 20th 111942? 12A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
And there was this follow up conference on March 6th 1942? 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
Both of them, effectively, chaired by the 16Reichssicherheitshauptamt, by Heydrich? 17A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
And with representatives of a not very high level from all 19the Ministries involved in the Jewish problem? 20A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
The Wannsee Conference, I do not think we need to look at 22in this context, unless you particularly want to make any 23comments about it? Your submission is, of course, that 24the Wannsee conference discussed the killing operations 25because Eichmann admitted this under interrogation, is 26that correct?