"But if you lived in a place where you work 7 days a week and still can't feed your family more than beans everyday and you're watching your kids grow up malnourished and uneducated, what would you do?"
what does that have to do with what is good for america?

The Indians (big generalization, includes many peoples) had a right to fight for their land, and to fight to keep others away. Many did, and lost. But at least they put up a fight, which is more than our government is doing; and unlike the Indians in the old days, our current government has the resources to easily win the fight if they so choose.

My family came to America around the turn of the last century because the people in eastern europe were killing jews.

My great grandmother came through Ellis Island and an immigration guy goes around and if he doesn't like the way someone looks, if they're too young, too old, too blonde, whatever, he makes a chalk mark on the shoulder of their shirt .

He made a chalk mark on my great grandmother and her kids. My great aunt, who was maybe 11 asked around and found out what the mark meant. And she erased the chalk marks.

So I guess my family -- which is full of college grads, attorneys, doctors, judges, teachers, even a nuclear physicist -- has been here illegally for over 100 years. ;-)

unless you are coming from a war torn country, or a devastated country (famine, etc.), thenyou should be go through legal channels. otherwise, you are making a joke of everyone else who does the proper thing.

Johnny99,
You're right. I've said numerous times that if I lived in Mexico and was making $.08 a day (or whatever) and I had to support a family while the US is just a hike to the north, I'd do the same exact thing they're doing. However, this really has nothing to do with the laws here in the states. Until those laws are changed and open borders becomes policy, they will continue to be law breakers and should be dealt with as such. Let fuckin Mexico fix their own problems.

JBraswell, your analogy was deeply flawed.
unfortunately, importing illegals here to do your dirty work has lots of negative effects on the rest of us, from people getting their vehicle smashed by drunk illegals without insurance, to the hospital payments for emergency-room healthcare that close hospitals and drive up health care costs for the rest of us.
seriously, get out of NYC for a friggin' second and look at what illegal immigration has done for the rest of the country. Answer is, jack shit.
if you're a anarchocapitalist your answer is fine, but if you are a minarchist, then it is just plain retarded.
A state that can't control the follow of foriegners into and out of it is no longer a state, for the same reason that when you are dying, you shit your fucking pants.
it's all about control of flow into and out of the organism.

I agree that Mexico needs to change. One of the reasons the US allows illegal immigration from Mexico is because it is in the US's best interest not to have a revolution in Mexico.

"unless you are coming from a war torn country, or a devastated country (famine, etc.), thenyou should be go through legal channels. otherwise, you are making a joke of everyone else who does the proper thing."

A lot of these people are coming from war torn Central American countries. Hurricane Mitch left hundreds of thousands of people homeless in Honduras.

And what those people go through to get here is fucking inhuman.

If you want to see your kids get an education so badly that you will endure robbery, rape, assault, starvation, dehydration, and a million other smaller indignities to get a job picking lettuce, I say fuck it, man, as soon as you cross the border you are a citizen. American needs people with that kind of balls.

really, i thought our country was a democracy? being that the majority of citizens want illegals out, illegal immigration is not a net benefit
Right on! I guess when the majority of our citizens thought niggers were worthless, that was okay, too!
I had to wait a few years and pay hundreds of dollars to get my wife legally in the country, why should these fucks be able to break the law by coming here and then demand rights?
This is one of the most inane arguments I hear put forth. Just because one person was put through a stupid process, they all should be, and we're never allowed to fix anything?
My, now, ex-wife had to wait to get in and we were fine with that because, call us crazy, we are law abiding.
Did your ex-wife support a family in a poor home country? If not, then how can you blame others for coming in here illegally, just because they didn't have the luxury your wife did?
seriously, get out of NYC for a friggin' second and look at what illegal immigration has done for the rest of the country. Answer is, jack shit.
I'm out of NYC, and according to just about every professional economist, they've done quite a bit more than jack shit.
A state that can't control the follow of foriegners into and out of it is no longer a state
Last time this issue came up, I outlined a perfectly reasonable scenario for you. A proper state has geographic borders within which it enforces the basic negative rights of anyone who is within those borders. I see no contradiction here.
100% wrong, it is a huge financial burden, if it wasnt for the 13 (million or billion, I forget) of untaxed income that gets sent back across the border and doenst get re-circulated, the U.S. might brake even, as it is, there is no benefit
You're simply incorrect, and you can't spell any better than most border jumpers.
what does that have to do with what is good for america?
What is good for America is for it to stand as a shining example of a what a nation should be, where a minimal government allows people to freely engage in whatever commerce they deem fit and with whomever they deem fit, a nation that doesn't take away rights because of the deluded demand for coddling from those who see themselves as privileged because of where they happened to crawl out of their mothers' snatches.

"A proper state has geographic borders within which it enforces the basic negative rights of anyone who is within those borders. I see no contradiction here."
and I poked several holes in that theory.
I have a right to proper restitution if someone damages my shit by their gross negligience. Justification, I have a negative right to have my shit left the hell alone, correct?
is that right being recognized by illegals or the government currently with regards to autos? not hardly.
I'm not going to even mention that invasions can be done just as well without guns in a representiative country, if the defender refuses to remove the invaders and the invaders can grab electorial rights, and that this is an actual military tactic that is being considered a possibly valid attack in asymmetric warfare doctrines.
I believe I said this on the last thread - if it was 14 million unarmed Islamists crossing our border, or 300 million unarmed Chinese Communist Party members entering the country on ships, we wouldn't even be having this conversation, we would actually kick their asses out.
what's wrong with those groups immigrating? They just wanna do bidness, right?
"where a minimal government allows people to freely engage in whatever commerce they deem fit and with whomever they deem fit,"
so are you going to provide board to the illegals you might hire? pay their health insurance? make sure they have car insurance? Pay for the bilingual education budgets? etc. etc. etc.
fuck no you're not, they are illegals, the whole reason someone would hire them is because they can't demand the same shit and same pay a citizen does legally.
if you aren't paying that shit, you are putting a financial burden on the rest of us in return for your cheap labor.
The most I may see are some lower prices for goods and services, but the business owners employing illegal will try to take as much of the savings as they can as profit, and try to stick the rest of us with the financial burden.
and sorry, but just saying "economists say" doesn't cut it. Who are these economists? Is there an interested party funding any of their research? Are they willing to state on the record that the average taxpayer saves more in reduced costs from illegal labor, than they spend in taxes on the various governmental systems the illegals are abusing?
the last time this came up, you cited a positively ridiculous study that didn't look at half the services that were being abused out of necessity by illegals due to their low wages.
I am all for free trade. I am all for legal immigration. We already have both systems established. Moreover, our legal immigration system is specifically designed to be scrupulously multicultural and fair - we accept certain amounts of immigrants from different regions of the world, in large part to avoid immigration backlash by balancing to ensure we do not get too many immigrants from one source.
Why are people from Mexico and Central America somehow special, that they should be able to violate these laws with impunity?
there are a fuckton of Africans in far worse shape than the Mexicans or Central Americans, if this is about charity, why don't we offer them a chance at citizenship?
And if this about charity, why aren't we solving the core fucking problem, which is that Mexico is an god damned economic basketcase?
Correct me if I am wrong, but don't remittances from Mexicans in the U.S. make up Mexico's single greatest source of income?
As a temporary tactic out of extreme necessity, that can be effective (see: Greek Cypriots), but it looks like a long term tactic.
Especially now that it looks like Mexican oil wells will be tapped out in 10 years....

"the USA paid Mexico $15 million dollars in 1853 for the land it took"
Anyone with a gun barrel pressed against their back would buy anything for whatever amount. Mexico had no choice. Obviously, your understanding of History is based on public schooling. I like how you worded yoour last few words, "it took." It's about time somebody said it in the right context.

I believe I said this on the last thread - if it was 14 million unarmed Islamists crossing our border, or 300 million unarmed Chinese Communist Party members entering the country on ships, we wouldn't even be having this conversation, we would actually kick their asses out.
LOL. I'm sorry, brother. This is the most realistic problem you can conjure up? I'll tell you what, just to rule this out, we'll make a special exception. If more than one million of them come over on a single boat, we can turn it away. Or how about, no more than two million from a single country in a single year? That would easily include all current immigration, but it would rule out these very realistic tactics you bring up.
if you aren't paying that shit, you are putting a financial burden on the rest of us in return for your cheap labor.
God fucking dammit...do you people even make an attempt to follow the dialogue?? Honestly, I respect your intelligence, RoR, but are you intentionally glossing over the facts already brought up in this thread? By best estimates, well over half of illegals pay income taxes and payroll taxes; they all pay sales taxes; they pretty much all pay property taxes. (Additionally, they will never see the associated social security money or any other benefits when they use the necessary fake documents.)
and sorry, but just saying "economists say" doesn't cut it. Who are these economists? Is there an interested party funding any of their research? Are they willing to state on the record that the average taxpayer saves more in reduced costs from illegal labor, than they spend in taxes on the various governmental systems the illegals are abusing?
Yes, it does cut it. When there is consensus by experts in a field, unless you have very powerful evidence to the contrary, you should adopt that point of view. The vast majority of economists agree that illegal immigration is a net positive to the economy, albeit a small one. Even Borjas admits this. The only segment of the population that MIGHT be harmed overall are highschool dropouts.
there are a fuckton of Africans in far worse shape than the Mexicans or Central Americans, if this is about charity, why don't we offer them a chance at citizenship?
Bring 'em. However, if you really wish to create distinctions, I feel that NAFTA countries should at least have free flow of labor if they're going to have free flow of capital.

"Mexico had no choice."
they could have chosen to stay on their side of the Texas-Mexico border, as a border incident coming from the Mexican side as a result of a wave of Mexican border-raiding bandits repeatedly hitting the border regions of Texas is what sparked the war..
not to say Polk wasn't spoiling for a fight and an excuse to invade, though.

"Or how about, no more than two million from a single country in a single year?"
and now let's compound that over a number of years.
correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't about 9-10% of the population of Mexico already live and work in the U.S.?
what happens when it's 15%? 20%? 25%?
you know damn well that if even 5% of U.S. population (15 million) moved into Mexico illegally there would be yanqui lynchings all over the place.
you also know how Mexicans enforce their own, retrograde border policy.
moreover, why are we suddenly admitting that countries have a right to control the movement of foreigners into their country?
what about open commerce?
"By best estimates, well over half of illegals pay income taxes and payroll taxes;"
that's already been questioned in this thread.
"The only segment of the population that MIGHT be harmed overall are highschool dropouts."
that group is a lot easier to officially ignore when you're the one with a bachelor's or grad degree.
why should we favor Central American middle-school-dropouts over American high-school-dropouts?
"(Additionally, they will never see the associated social security money or any other benefits when they use the necessary fake documents.)"
interesting, did not know about that.
"When there is consensus by experts in a field, unless you have very powerful evidence to the contrary, you should adopt that point of view."
lol, there was pretty strong consensus by economists in the Soviet Union that Marxist economics wasn't a crock of shit.
More fairly, before the re-emergence of free marketeers in the West, there was pretty strong consensus among economists that Keynesism cured all ills.
I feel that many economists have conflated "free trade" and "open borders" as if the two are inseperable and the success of the first ensures the success of the other. They aren't, and it doesn't.
moreover, let's talk social and cultural factors, which are mostly ignored by economists.
I don't particularly appreciate many illegals expecting people to speak to them and businesses to cater to them in Spanish in an English-speaking country.
I also am not happy with the fact illegals do not exactly have the best record on getting their kids educated and up a rung on the ladder. Most of the people leaving Mexico can get a perfectly passable, and state-paid K-12 education, and they're not bothering with it. I looked at a book for a Mexican middle-school science class - it actually looks better than the pablum we are feeding kids now in similar classes.
we haven't even finished fixing the fucking problems with the American black economic underclass yet, and they are fucking CITIZENS of long and honorable standing, and we're importing a whole new economic underclass, of which a good chunk is going to remain as an underclass?
this sounds like a really fucking bright idea in return for cheap lettuce.

"unless you are coming from a war torn country, or a devastated country (famine, etc.), thenyou should be go through legal channels."
so why should people who completely trashed their last country get to come here and trash ours?

"so why should people who completely trashed their last country get to come here and trash ours?"
I know you hate all kinds of immigration, so I'll tell you a story.
there was a Greek Cypriot teenager. one morning, he wakes up and has to evacuate with nothing but a duffel bag and the clothes on his back, because the Turkish Army invaded Cyprus in support of the Turkish Cypriots.
The Turkish Cypriots make up about 20% of the population of Cyprus at that time.
his entire family's possessions and landholdings were wiped out or stolen by the Turks, and he had to emigrate because there wasn't enough business left in the half of the island that was still Greek Cypriot.
he legally immigrated to the U.S., worked his ass off to get a PH.D in history, and is now a professor at a prestigious liberal arts college, where he taught a family member of mine Greek and Ancient History.
Other Greek Cypriots did the same thing all over the world, then came back to Cyprus.
He decided that America was now his home.
We could always use more immigrants like him.

and now let's compound that over a number of years
So, you're worried about China slowly amassing a 300 million person army over a 75-year period, all the while maintaining the loyalty of their emigrants who (somehow) won't instantly fall in love with their new life away from the dirty, Communist village?
you know damn well that if even 5% of U.S. population (15 million) moved into Mexico illegally there would be yanqui lynchings all over the place.
Why should I use the actions of backwards, irrational policymakers to inform my own policy? Who cares that Mexico does?
moreover, why are we suddenly admitting that countries have a right to control the movement of foreigners into their country?
My Libertarianism is not derived from Rockwellian absolutism. I remain, fundamentally, a utilitarian.
"By best estimates, well over half of illegals pay income taxes and payroll taxes;"
that's already been questioned in this thread.
Questioned? Only in the sense that someone just said he didn't believe it. I provided two sources for that estimate, and other researchers have reached similar conclusions. Find me something credible that seriously disputes this number; I'd honestly appreciate it.
lol, there was pretty strong consensus by economists in the Soviet Union that Marxist economics wasn't a crock of shit.
I remember when scientists believed in ether. They were wrong; hence, we should never believe scientists again??
Besides, your comparing consensus amongst a relatively small subset of politically 'motivated' economists to a broad consensus of economists not in front of a gun. It's completely different.
I don't particularly appreciate many illegals expecting people to speak to them and businesses to cater to them in Spanish in an English-speaking country.
Really? Is it REALLY that much of a burden to you that perhaps, oh, one time in your life you were delayed by thirty seconds in buying your morning coffee because the Mexican customer in front of you had a hard time talking to the cashier?
They don't 'expect' anything. They just come here hoping to get by, and if they can't do that, it's their problem, not yours.
Obviously you have never had to fill out anything more than a 1040EZ form for your taxes.
Hey, buddy, you pretty much got me pegged, except that I make well above average wage, am married, own a separate consulting firm, bought and sold real estate, and had dozens and dozens of deductions last year....except for all of that, you pretty much figured me out.
There is nothing minimal about our government. Do you live in fantasy land?
Yes, excellent point. Since our government is not currently perfect, we should immediately give in to the demands to make it worse.

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