1) It's a proc to gain avoidance - overall fairly unreliable.
2) Not denying that but the gains are minimal especially with high vengeance levels
3) Which is fairly pointless in an aoe situations because BB being a 1-rune ability makes it near impossible to spend all runes anyway.

Nothing in this would be a "thanks to his build" - an optimized build for bats would focus mostly on avoidance / stamina defensive wise and on crit dps wise.
And no matter what gearing strategy you follow solo tanking this fight a dk is kind of questionable not only due to how we're bad at surviving add damage but also because it's hard to pick up adds while tanking the boss. Paladins are insane for this because they can outthreat healers on hps and actually have the tools to aoe tank without giving up too much survivability.

I'm not against following a dps focused mind-set in fact I'm doing that myself it's just I feel that some things are unreasonable and do you more harm than good solo tanking Tortos on progression being one of them. What I am against is advocating an unreasonable way of gearing without having any experience to back it up.

This is what I meant by reading comprehension.

He's not talking about solo tanking Tortos. He's talking about solo-killing the bats.

---------- Post added 2013-05-08 at 01:11 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Cookie

The point is that he can cheese more vengence with more defensive stats, which coupled with the fact that FC/haste adds relatively little damage probably means that the sturdier build ends up doing more damage to them.

I'm not saying he can cheese more vengeance with wearing DPS gear and using a DPS runeforge (by deliberately taking damage like standing in fire), I'm saying he's already doing that simply by forgoing traditional tanking gear/runeforge because he is already taking more damage this way.

The dragons' flame sealed my fate. The world of the living can no longer comfort me.

He's not talking about solo tanking Tortos. He's talking about solo-killing the bats.

Which isn't possible to do in a timely manner unless he's tanking Tortos as well. Dks are horrible bat tanks to start with (apart from kiting), bat tanking with a focus on dps stats is just stupid since it'll have a slim impact on his dps output but make him even worse for the job.

I'm not saying he can cheese more vengeance with wearing DPS gear and using a DPS runeforge (by deliberately taking damage like standing in fire), I'm saying he's already doing that simply by forgoing traditional tanking gear/runeforge because he is already taking more damage this way.

Learn how vengeance works, it's pre mitigation damage so him wearing dps gear and dps runeforge doesn't cause him to get more vengeance at all.

This is what I meant by reading comprehension.
He's not talking about solo tanking Tortos. He's talking about solo-killing the bats.

Oh I saw that but solo tanking the adds also leads to you dealing almost all of the damage anyway so there's nothing special in that. I think you're lacking in comprehension of the consequences solo tanking has. And yes one of them being a significant dps increase through high vengeance, which.... devalues Strength a lot and allowing your to deal a significant part of the raid's dps.

Originally Posted by Hellkung

I'm not saying he can cheese more vengeance with wearing DPS gear and using a DPS runeforge (by deliberately taking damage like standing in fire), I'm saying he's already doing that simply by forgoing traditional tanking gear/runeforge because he is already taking more damage this way.

Except as someone already posted above there are only few things that increase vengeance by removing damage reduction - basically everything you get from gear ,skills (except for physical damage reduction through armor afaict) or raid members does not affect your vengeance levels. Things that do affect vengeance levels are not applying the physical damage debuff (stupid and pointless as a dk) and avoiding encounter specific damage reductions (like at the first boss in HoF).

And there we are back at my statement:

What I am against is advocating an unreasonable way of gearing without having any experience to back it up.

Which isn't possible to do in a timely manner unless he's tanking Tortos as well. Dks are horrible bat tanks to start with (apart from kiting), bat tanking with a focus on dps stats is just stupid since it'll have a slim impact on his dps output but make him even worse for the job.

Learn how vengeance works, it's pre mitigation damage so him wearing dps gear and dps runeforge doesn't cause him to get more vengeance at all.

Let's just clarify, the guy who replied to Reniat was/is from a 10 man guild, I'm suspecting a normal 10 man guild because that's the comparison that was made. 25H was mentioned, 10 man HC was not.

It's acually very possible to do, not every single time they spawn (most of this depends on the amount of vengeance you get) but I've done it myself. On normal they have 1.8 mill HP which is absolutely nothing, I don't even have to mention the plethora of abilities we have for burst AOE, not to mention DRW for double diseases (double everything), his strategy might have a small impact towards his DPS compared to vengeance, but it helps and this isn't about how he's suddenly bad for the job because he's not stacking avoidance instead, the difference between a good DK and a bad one is proper CD management, that's why we have so many of them

And you're saying DK's are awful bat tanks, they might as well be on HC but on normal tanking the bats is laughable, worst case scenario you've got a 6 sec stun in RW.

Each time you take damage, you gain 2% of the unmitigated damage taken as attack power for 20 sec.

This doesn't mean he will necessarily get more vengeance out of the situation, that's completely random, it means his vengeance will be more consistent because he's not focusing on mitigation.

---------- Post added 2013-05-08 at 10:00 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Nillo

Oh I saw that but solo tanking the adds also leads to you dealing almost all of the damage anyway so there's nothing special in that. I think you're lacking in comprehension of the consequences solo tanking has. And yes one of them being a significant dps increase through high vengeance, which.... devalues Strength a lot and allowing your to deal a significant part of the raid's dps.

Except as someone already posted above there are only few things that increase vengeance by removing damage reduction - basically everything you get from gear ,skills (except for physical damage reduction through armor afaict) or raid members does not affect your vengeance levels. Things that do affect vengeance levels are not applying the physical damage debuff (stupid and pointless as a dk) and avoiding encounter specific damage reductions (like at the first boss in HoF).

And there we are back at my statement:

Your first bit about the consequences of solo tanking is of no value, because we were never talking about solo tanking, this is a discussion about a Blood DK pushing out enough DPS through multiple sources for him to be able to solo the vampiric cave bats on 10 man normal.

Read my previous post if you're still interested in trying to comprehend that there's progression points where people start outgearing content and go for more of a hybrid style of tanking.

The dragons' flame sealed my fate. The world of the living can no longer comfort me.

1) And you're saying DK's are awful bat tanks, they might as well be on HC but on normal tanking the bats is laughable, worst case scenario you've got a 6 sec stun in RW.

2) This doesn't mean he will necessarily get more vengeance out of the situation, that's completely random, it means his vengeance will be more consistent because he's not focusing on mitigation.

1) They are as long as you're at least somewhat progressing the fight because they heal up a lot whenever you dip below 350k hp and RW's cd is higher than their duration

2) and you still have no clue how vengeance works...

---------- Post added 2013-05-08 at 12:27 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Hellkung

3)Your first bit about the consequences of solo tanking is of no value, because we were never talking about solo tanking, this is a discussion about a Blood DK pushing out enough DPS through multiple sources for him to be able to solo the vampiric cave bats on 10 man normal.

4) Read my previous post if you're still interested in trying to comprehend that there's progression points where people start outgearing content and go for more of a hybrid style of tanking.

3) And since solo killing them is 100% about solo tanking the boss, because you'd otherwise be far from the dps you need to kill them that is indeed a vital part of this discussion.

4) Whatever I give up arguing with people who haven't even left the LFR levels and need to outgear the content they do by about 1 item tier.

Public Service Announcement: If you want to discuss semantics so bad do it in PMs. We get both your points, if you feel you need to educate each other please do it in PMs. This won't do any good to the topic at hand and will only lead to personal attacks.And we are not going to have that.

1) Vengeance is unaffected by mitigation. No armor, HP or shield has an effect on vengeance.
2) If you are "outgearing" and "farming" content, who the heck cares if you start doing it naked while backpedaling?
3) If you want to talk about maximizing DpS in a specific situation then be specific when starting the talk about the situation.

For maximizing survivability haste CAN be viable up to where you are able to push out a Death Strike every 5 second, because your shield and selfheal is affected by the damage taken over 5 secs. Once you're able to do this, from a survivability point of view, you are only gaining dps and getting worse at eating damage.

Originally Posted by vep

Are you really looking for logic in a game that sends you dragons via the mail service?...

I get that it would not be better than Mastery, Mastery is still the best Mitigation stat for Paladins. Haste is just better as a whole because its ability to keep SoTR up more. But Parry/ Dodge are absolute shit for Paladinds. So Haste/Mastery is the way to go. So would this be true for DK's but instead go Mastery/Haste?

Good to know you're psychic and found out what my guild's progression is.

I'm done too, this is textbook closed-minded.

No need to be psychic since you posted your armory a few times and the one we were talking about has just had his first kill on Tortos normal...

What is? You mean warning people not to follow someone who uses an unreasonable gearing strategy just because he ranked very high with an unreasonable strategy on said encounter.
Again I have nothing against people cheesing dps rankings when overgearing encounters that they've already killed I just don't like that he's advocating his far from optimal gear/talent choices.

---------- Post added 2013-05-08 at 02:07 PM ----------

Originally Posted by DPA

For maximizing survivability haste CAN be viable up to where you are able to push out a Death Strike every 5 second, because your shield and selfheal is affected by the damage taken over 5 secs. Once you're able to do this, from a survivability point of view, you are only gaining dps and getting worse at eating damage.

Wrong - at this point you're running into diminishing returns on mastery, but that's about it (= you still gain more overall healing) and there are a few exceptions to that as well:
Even at more than 1DS/5s you can still stagger DS in a way that allows you to gain a full heal if needed
If you're in a situation where you're mostly doing minimum heals you're not losing out on anything by doing more than 1 DS/5s.

---------- Post added 2013-05-08 at 02:14 PM ----------

Originally Posted by schwank05

I get that it would not be better than Mastery, Mastery is still the best Mitigation stat for Paladins. Haste is just better as a whole because its ability to keep SoTR up more. But Parry/ Dodge are absolute shit for Paladinds. So Haste/Mastery is the way to go. So would this be true for DK's but instead go Mastery/Haste?

Ya the problem is that paladins have close to 100% scaling with haste and don't run into diminishing returns (unless at fairly high latency levels), because there's almost no way to get a 100% ShoR uptime and all their self heals scale with Vengeance as well as haste.
With dks there are quite a few issues with haste: Diminishing returns on DS (since it scales with damage taken rather than Vengeance), diminishing returns on haste itself due to gcd issues (paladins don'T have that because their gcd goes down as well) and AMS screwing with RP generation regularly.

For haste to be good for DKs we'd need a way to burn excess runes/runic power which right now is only DRW and that's on a 90sec cooldown.

No need to be psychic since you posted your armory a few times and the one we were talking about has just had his first kill on Tortos normal...

What is? You mean warning people not to follow someone who uses an unreasonable gearing strategy just because he ranked very high with an unreasonable strategy on said encounter.
Again I have nothing against people cheesing dps rankings when overgearing encounters that they've already killed I just don't like that he's advocating his far from optimal gear/talent choices.

Then you must have the wrong armory in front of you. We just killed Twin Consorts and are almost done with Lei-Shen, ready to start HC progression. My item level is 521, wearing 3 pieces of tier (would use the gloves if the 4-set wasn't garbage) and it is only at this point where I have personally switched out to RC instead of BT and ROTFC instead of SSG. Most of the mastery on plate being accompanied by haste has never bothered me this tier and the same goes for my paladin co-tank. At this point the need for a 'emergency' DS is simply no longer needed in my opinion (save for maybe Horridon, but his rampage lasts so incredibly short with good DPS, not even great), whenever I do dip low, I pop a CD to get out of the danger zone.

So you can think of me as a LFR hero all you want, I have absolutely no interest in trying to come off as if I always know what I'm doing, there's tons and tons of incredibly smart DK's on this forum. It was just wrong to see you bashing a person who you accuse of advocating his way of playing, which if you read this bit again;

I agree with you as a 10M main tank, I use trinkets that proc for STR and use rune of fallen crusader + haste after mastery and soft caps. I have very little loss in mitigation and my DPS sky rockets, I solo the bats on Tortos thx to this build. But ofcourse, it all comes down to the Raid's Eco system, In our raid, we constantly run with 3 heals, so they don't mind tanks doing this.

He never really did. He simply shared what works for him (agreeing with Reniat), in his raid, with his amount of healers. I didn't mean for this convo to get heated,

So I will stop here, before this thread derails any further.

Have a good day!

The dragons' flame sealed my fate. The world of the living can no longer comfort me.

I tried it on ptr i had a massive Mastery increase and the uptime of the trinket was 24% after ~7 minutes on dummy... I had to use PvP gear so the rest of my secondaries was pretty low around 1.8k crit and 2.1k haste

You can go yourself and try the trinket on ptr just go the the vendor in Niazua Tempel and change the gear filter in the vendors corner.

Edit: I took a look on the armory of a poster above...http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...elare/advanced Let say he remove the Zandalar trinket he'd have 2339 crit and 5965 haste and the proc would then be 2*(2339+5965)= 4678+11,930=16,608 Mastery on the proc + the base mastery of 9592 whice would end him of at 26,200 mastery rating Thought the negative thing is during the 10 sec of the proc you'd have 0 haste and 0 crit.

p.s Don't hate if i'm just wrong lol wanted to share my stupid idea. Also sorry if this is the wrong place to post this.

crit > haste ?

i've been going hit/expsoft>crit>haste with what little dps gear i have (about 5 dps (lfr/normal) pieces, and 2 <= 489ilvl crappy trinks), and the results seem pretty good so far... i end up with ~9% haste and 21% crit raid buffed. this is basically a mix of main set/ offset dps gear (still using tank runeforge).

i'm wondering if crit is actually the better stat over haste when going for maximum tank dps. i've been trying to haste softcap at 10%, and going the rest all crit on my offset dps tank gear. has anyone else tried crit>haste for tank dps'n? did you find it better?

That's a fundamentally flawed premise, the idea of a Paladin's haste stacking is that their buff from Shield of the Righteous is a flat damage reduction buff, it does not vary at all except in uptime, and more haste increases it's uptime.

Haste does increase the theoretical uptime of Blood Shield, as eventually you'll get enough DS/min to where you can always have one ready before the shield drops off. Most DKs are already there on the baseline 20% rune regen from Improved Blood Presence, the issue is that Blood Shield isn't a static damage reduction buff like SHoTR is, it's a variable absorb bubble that's increased by - you guessed it - Our Mastery.

Ergo the entire premise is dead on the starting line, because it's already verifiably pointless.

mastery starts capping as early as 200% (for the good dk's/horridon type fights) up to anywhere over 270% mastery (bad dk's/soft hitters). lets pretend that stacking haste as the very top stat IS flat out bad. therefore the argument is not haste vs mastery, but haste vs Mit/avoid/hit. it's ok that you think it is "Verifiably Pointless" without understanding the basic theory, but make sure you consider what is being argued before calling it worthless. most top dk tanks are making the switch already for some/most fights in tot. meanwhile haste is easily a comparable stat to avoidance even for those of you/us who don't want to risk looking like you actually have no idea how the class works.

also, it's another alternative gear set that isn't terrible when it's not ideal. for example: trying to tank all of ToT in a full avoidance set is.... not good on most fights, and terrible on some (at least trash becomes a joke). full mastery is great on most fights (aside from a couple, and it's still ok for those). full stam is silly on most fights, but great on a couple. the argument is that having a haste set is fine in most situations, including progression (for example Lei Shi, a boss that most tanks struggle with would be wrecked by haste dk tanks, whereas mastery and avoidance are completely 100% useless aside from the adds).

i have slowly started making a haste set and i am a full convert (and soon my gear will be converted too), my healers have no complaints, i almost always outheal the other dk tank in the raid and i am one of the top dps in the group (if not top). and what happens if my haste set isn't cutting it on progression? i switch to one of my other four sets of gear.

any tank that isn't switching gear/glyphs/talents for certain fights, isn't pushing the limits of their class for their raid, or is dismissing theorycrafting due to faulty logic, is not worth their raid's time and certainly doesn't belong in a thread about high end theory crafting.

as for comparing a paladin to a dk, paladins don't work without vengeance. sacred shields are small, wog's are small, SoI is small. the number of sub par pallies trying to play a haste build that get two shot on the pull is mind blowing. same goes for a dk tank that doesn't understand what they are doing. playing a haste build means not just spending runes for a rotation (face? meet keyboard!), but gaming runes, watching swing timers/avoids, tracking SoB stacks to maximize a bit lower mastery or avoidance for a drastic increase in the number of slightly smaller death strikes. these are things you should be doing already, but most dk's can get away with because of how ridiculously op dk's are without any understanding of how basic class or game mechanics work.

- - - Updated - - -

@ Nillo: Conversion?!

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by DPA

For maximizing survivability haste CAN be viable up to where you are able to push out a Death Strike every 5 second, because your shield and selfheal is affected by the damage taken over 5 secs. Once you're able to do this, from a survivability point of view, you are only gaining dps and getting worse at eating damage.

as long as you are just barely capping blood shields, the DS cap would be.....never popping a shield. (hypothetically). a DS doesn't ignore the damage calculated by other DS'....

standard boss swing is 2 or 3 sec, and most dk tanks can easily game 8-9+ DS/min without any haste at all. (8.33sec regen)

i have 16.5% haste on my dk a sit at a comphy 7.0x sec regen. and still cap blood shields regularly. i game 12-13+ ds/min and have no problem surviving or tanking 10/12 bosses in tot in mostly haste gear. i would love more haste gear so i can completely eliminate the need for blood runes in my survivability rotation and keep them for utility/DS delay instead.

Last edited by Mr.Pineapple; 2013-07-27 at 07:03 AM.
Reason: FiXXersLeGramerslololol

Ask yourself a question: 'How have I made the world a better place today?'.

If your answer isn't legitimate, or meaningful: TRY HARDER - YOU ARE FAILING AT RL!

The new simc tmi scoring had some interesting developments recently and Mendenbarr made an actionlist and did some early rough sims. This is of course simc, and a very new module at that to take it cum grano salis. Anyway, looking at the weights after a sim, it seemed like haste actually had some sort of merit here:

i'm wondering if crit is actually the better stat over haste when going for maximum tank dps. i've been trying to haste softcap at 10%, and going the rest all crit on my offset dps tank gear. has anyone else tried crit>haste for tank dps'n? did you find it better?

It is better, but is more of a stretch survivability-wise. I like to stick with the str/crit dps trinkets for most fights. Otherwise I've found gearing with a nice balance of mastery and haste on dps gear an optimal change in 10H at least. Sometimes I take out more mastery for haste than usual when mastery loses some of it's value because of magic damage and when dps can be a huge help (council and megaera). On another note, the dps 2 piece has a nice perk of more uptime on a death pact-able pet on top of the dps.

The new simc tmi scoring had some interesting developments recently and Mendenbarr made an actionlist and did some early rough sims. This is of course simc, and a very new module at that to take it cum grano salis. Anyway, looking at the weights after a sim, it seemed like haste actually had some sort of merit here:

Yea I used stuff like "some sort of merit" instead of "survivability" for that reason specifically. Though it probably could be argued that for blood dk's especially, smoothing damage could be a pretty good deal. Going to be cool though seeing how this tool evolves with a top notch tank and theorycrafter making stuff like this for it.

You can't think about haste as being a #1 stat for Blood DK's like it is for Prot Paladins, that is just not the case. Going for 20% haste unbuffed is the sweet spot which gives you about 32% haste in raid. That allows you to maximize DPS and survivability while not being RP/Rune/GCD capped at all.

Beginning DK's should definitely go Mastery heavy, and lower geared DK's should too. Until you hit about 8k mastery you shouldn't even consider touching haste and at that point you want to start building to increments of haste as you improve your gear, aka get 5% haste while keeping 8k mastery. Then go for 10% haste and 9k mastery. Then try to get to the 20% haste mark when you are able to hit 10k mastery as well and from there it's really just all stam/mastery and maintain 20% haste.