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On reading the Reblitz book, I learned that good hammer technique is to put the hammer on the pin so that the handle is parallel and away from the string at about a 5 o'clock position. He says " you'll have the least tendency to bend the pins as you tune" this way.

He goes on to say you should have your elbow firmly resting on the piano so that as a right handed person pushing will tighten the string.

Now, I do have a simple student type tuning hammer but doing what Reblitz suggests means that the handle of the hammer does not end up being high enough to clear the board above the keys ( sorry, don't have the term for it)

So, I guess I have two options. Put the hammer at a different angle with the handle pointed away from the keys

or buy another hammer or tip extension. Of course my 'student' hammer has a 2 1/2 inch tip screwed on to the handle.

So, my question for you guys:

Do you use Reblitz's technique? If so, how do you extend up over the 2 1/2 inch height of the wood between the keys and the pin block?

I have searched extensively the various tuning hammers, I'm just not sure if this is really that important to do it from the above mentioned angle.

I use a different technique to tune. I hold the hammer with the handle away from me, pointing towards the tail, maybe at around one or two o'clock.

I pull to raise the pitch, and push to lower.

... diff'rent strokes ...

That is called "flag-poling", and bends the tuning pin. It also ovals out the top of the hole in the pinblock. There's a whole lot to know just to manipulate the pin and the lever. In fact, "Different Strokes" is just one of the books written on the topic.

Thanks for your all your concerns about my piano. The point is that I want to do the best for it. Learning to tune it is just an extension of being a musician and making my piano my own. So, if you are too worried, it's fine, I understand.

Anyway, it sounds like you guys agree with Reblitz. What sort of hammer do you use to get over the wood then?

Neil, why don't you at least hire a professional tuner for the first tuning. Watch, discreetly from a distance and try to pick up some of the answers to your many questions. Then you can observe some of the techniques for yourself.

Though the Reblitz book is a fine source, much of what is in there is not current practice. I'm not sure I'd agree at all with the tuning hammer technique you described. Certainly not the way I position the lever.

It's OK. I have a tuner who does an fine job. If i get too lost with this, I'll just give him a call( and I imagine pay him extra for the extra work ) I have hired two different tuners. But I wasn't thinking about this detail when they were here. On the other hand, I don't recall either of them having a hammer that would extend over the wood opposite the strings. How about this? Anyone in Seattle want to come give me a tuning lesson? Yep, I'm sure I can call the local guild or one of my tuners. I know there is a sizable learning curve here. I'm happy to do my homework though.

You missed the point - it is you who should be worried.Learning to tune pianos is not necessarily an extension of musicianship. It is a craft all by itself and takes years to master.Your enthusiasm is a good start and I am certain that you can learn if you want to invest the time and effort required to properly learn the necessary skills. There is a great PTG chapter in Seattle - I would suggest that you attend a meeting and meet the pros - it would be a demonstration of your desire to learn then you can connect up with someone willing to help - a much better approach to this imho.Purchasing a student hammer was your first mistake, using it to turn pins on a BB would be another.

This is my path, this is what I intend to do, it's my piano, I really didn't expect this to end up being about me. In the end though, it's all about me because this is my dream just like it was your dream to become a tuner.

Bottom line, everyone starts somewhere. And I didn't miss anyones point. I really think on the contrary there was only one person here that actually answered my question

I have wanted to learn to tune pianos for over thirty years. At this point even if I ended up totally destroying my beloved Mason Hamlin it would be worth the fact that I had the courage to try to do what I wanted to do. After all, my life is about trying to improve and learn, not about protecting what I happen to be fortunate to own.

Always mystifies me the barriers people try to put up. I respect you or what you have learned to do. Frankly though, I have plenty of brains to do the same, and so I will.

Buy a better hammer with an extension. Resting your elbow is not as important as pulling the hammer straight in the same plane as the pinblock otherwise you will bend pins. I like to keep the handle about the 2-4 o'clock position. Small movements produce the results you want. Too much movement and you add too much tension and will break a string. Sounds like for you, though, that would just be another learning opportunity.

You do have an exquisite piano. Proceed, and be cautious and deliberate. Use all resources you can. This forum, books, dvds, consult with your tech, etc. I admire your desire to learn.

I don't know very many techs who push on the handle to raise the pitch, if any. I and others I know pull the lever from about 1-3 o'clock, depending on pin position. Pushing on the pin to tighten it offers virtually zero control for me. I was always taught "12 o'clock, give or take a couple of hours."

The point is, you want to turn the pin, not bend it. Bending it, as Cy says will cause damage to the hole.

I have a couple of occasional customers who do a creditable job of tuning their own pianos. Like you, they seem to be intelligent and sincere in their quest for knowledge. It isn't rocket science, but it does take a fair amount of practice to get proficient enough to be pleased with your own results.

This post illustrates a problem that comes up again and again with DIY tuners. If a question is asked that reveals a woeful lack of basic knowledge it becomes very difficult to make suggestions that will not insult the questioner.

Inevitably the original poster takes to insulting the technicians, and very little is gained on either side.

DIYers, take some courses. Get some mentoring. That's really the best course.

Buy a better hammer with an extension. Resting your elbow is not as important as pulling the hammer straight in the same plane as the pinblock otherwise you will bend pins. I like to keep the handle about the 2-4 o'clock position. Small movements produce the results you want. Too much movement and you add too much tension and will break a string. Sounds like for you, though, that would just be another learning opportunity.

You do have an exquisite piano. Proceed, and be cautious and deliberate. Use all resources you can. This forum, books, dvds, consult with your tech, etc. I admire your desire to learn.

Thanks Alan,

So, it sounds like your hammer position is normally perpendicular to the string. And I get what you are saying about trying to keep the torque in the same plane as the pin movement.

This gets to the central issue I wonder about and which Reblitz has me concerned about. Because if I buy, say, a four inch long tip for my current hammer to get over the wood above the keys, it just seems that the longer tip may put more bending force into the pin. I suppose, similarly, too much angle used may do the same thing.

In other words, my thought is that the shorter the tip the better for minimizing pin bending forces. In looking at the available levers, it appears that many lever makers do seem to keep that part of their lever short.

In any event, it just sounds like I need to ignore Reblitz's advise ( parallel to string, handle away ) on this one.

I did read a whole thread from last year here about levers. It sounded to me like you all have your faves.

I had some fun last night checking out some of the pricey tuning levers. I especially liked the Fujan or maybe the Jahn. Problem with all that is I wouldn't know in detail how to configure such a purchase. To some extent thats what I'd like someone's advise on if they care to write about it.

This post illustrates a problem that comes up again and again with DIY tuners. If a question is asked that reveals a woeful lack of basic knowledge it becomes very difficult to make suggestions that will not insult the questioner.

Inevitably the original poster takes to insulting the technicians, and very little is gained on either side.

DIYers, take some courses. Get some mentoring. That's really the best course.

I'd be happy to take back whatever you may have thought was insulting in any of my posts David. As I see it, everything I have said was a statement of my position.

I have read many posts recently where long time piano tuners are taking issue with each other, so apparently even after years in the field, there is plenty to discuss, argue about, whatever.

On the other hand, sure, I can see there would be plenty of reasons an experienced tuner might role their eyes at my post. That's fine, I can handle it.

On this particular subject though, as I am apparently finding out, there seems to be at least some divergence of opinion, and especially from what Reblitz said in his book.

I suppose if this is just too elemental to be interesting to you, why not just move on to the next post? Like I said before, this just happens to be where I'm at right now. Sure, if and when I can find a teacher, that sounds good to me.

I really do respect your profession and find it amazing that people can count 4.5 or whatever beats in 5 seconds. Takes a long time to learn. So I'm at the beginning of my journey

I don't know very many techs who push on the handle to raise the pitch, if any. I and others I know pull the lever from about 1-3 o'clock, depending on pin position. Pushing on the pin to tighten it offers virtually zero control for me. I was always taught "12 o'clock, give or take a couple of hours."

The point is, you want to turn the pin, not bend it. Bending it, as Cy says will cause damage to the hole.

I have a couple of occasional customers who do a creditable job of tuning their own pianos. Like you, they seem to be intelligent and sincere in their quest for knowledge. It isn't rocket science, but it does take a fair amount of practice to get proficient enough to be pleased with your own results.

I don't know very many techs who push on the handle to raise the pitch, if any. I and others I know pull the lever from about 1-3 o'clock, depending on pin position. Pushing on the pin to tighten it offers virtually zero control for me. I was always taught "12 o'clock, give or take a couple of hours."

The point is, you want to turn the pin, not bend it. Bending it, as Cy says will cause damage to the hole.

I have a couple of occasional customers who do a creditable job of tuning their own pianos. Like you, they seem to be intelligent and sincere in their quest for knowledge. It isn't rocket science, but it does take a fair amount of practice to get proficient enough to be pleased with your own results.

Be cautious, have patience.

Dave offers sound advise...

Yes, I like Dave's advise. I do think it would be interesting to hear from a tech about what might have happened to Arthur Reblitz's method and the apparent fact that very few current tuners use it. ( edit; yes, I see Dave said pushing to tighten doesn't give him the control he wants, to paraphrase)

I can't imagine that using a student hammer will actually damage a piano. If anything, the student hammer will take the bigger beating due to its cheap material and construction. Has anyone of us here actually damaged a piano using a student hammer?

And using an extension lever is entirely unnecessary. The important thing is to have a hammer that has a clear path, is tall enough, and is comfortable to use.

I gave up extension hammers years ago due to their heavy weight. I'll never buy one again. Using a rigid, light-weight hammer allows you to feel the pin and the string better. You are much better connected to the string and you have much less fatigue to deal with. A pear-shaped handle is best. I use a Jahn non-extension pear handle.

And 'flag poling' is extremely effective for fine tuning - if done correctly. It settles the string and the pin at the same time. It increases speed and accuracy for a skilled tuner. The tuning pins are being twisted as you tune the piano. Learn to use the twisting to your advantage. Holding the hammer parallel to the strings gives the best advantage for this.

This technique does not harm pianos. I have been tuning some pianos now for almost 30 years and the tuning pins are still very tight.

The previous suggestion to hold the hammer at 12:00 give or take an hour is a perfectly fine place to start. If your body needs a better position in order to accomplish the task, that is an individual adjustment that the technician determines for himself.

The most important issues are that you listen - LISTEN - to the piano and feel the string and tuning pin as you adjust the strings. It takes months or years to get the coordination down to a fine skill. When you can tune a piano from start to finish in about an hour, and manage to lock in the frequencies with good stability, it is a very satisfying feeling to have.

For those of us professional tuners with hundreds of satisfied clients (who try other tuners only to come back to us again and again), we experience a lifetime of confirmation that our skills are the correct ones to use. After several decades, we learn that our technique delivers the best possible results without harming the piano.

Start with the student lever if you want to. Buy a better one if you're going to continue your quest to become a skilled tuner. But don't expect perfect results unless you become a full time tuner and are willing to devote years to hone your craft.

In all cases it is not the hammer that does the damage.When poor quality is combined with inexperience the risk increases dramatically.Always buy quality. I have 4 hammers and for each I have all tip sizes and extensions available. Neither is a Faulk or Fujan.There will never be one hammer tip combination that fits all situations.

I came across a cheap hammer with a bad tip that left ridges on the tuning pins. Yes, there are hammers that can damage pianos.

That makes sense.

My first student hammer was kept in the workshop and used from time to time while my good hammer was in my tool kit in the truck.

I continued to use the student hammer for chip tuning and non-tuning work in the shop. It never damaged pins, but eventually the tip failed. It literally cracked wide open and became worthless. I kept it and showed it at a PTG meeting in Denver.

Exhibit 1 - A cheap tuning hammer that fails after 20 years of use. We got a kick out of that one.

Before I bought my first grand piano about 4+ years ago, a 1915 M&H A, I had a Japanese upright for about 15 years. I knew absolutely nothing about tuning a piano. The upright had a Pianocorder as well as the M&H A. That Pianocorder was playing the the grand every day, and the piano would not stay in tune for very long...so I called the pro-tuner in..he did a great job.....a few weeks later, piano was not in tune, for my ear. I asked him about learning to tune, in fact he suggested it after he came back to tune it again and again. I bought an ETD and with a little help from him, started to tune. 4 1/2 years later, I have broken only 1 string, and it was on a friends upright that had all rusty stings, and it was the last string in the treble....lol...murphy's law.

I have found the most difficult thing to master is the pin-setting.....To get those pins to not wander. Thank heavens for the improvements in ETD's, otherwise I might not have been able to do it on my own. I plan to take some lessons from the pro's to get this pin setting better.

I use a Fujan hammer most of the time.

For those not familiar with my postings, here are a few of my tunings on my 1925 Mason & Hamlin BB. They are not perfect, but they are pretty good considering I am not a pro-tuner.

I am not a tuner (yet). But like you I am bound and determined to learn. Personally, I think using some basic common sense with a basic understanding of leverage (ie incorrectly used leverage of the hammer can damage a pin) will keep you safe from any chance of doing any damage. Piano's seem to be pretty solid instruments, from what I can tell. You already mentioned the importance of moving the hammer and the pin in the same plane. That with very small movements should get you the results you wants WRT chnaging the pitch / beats slightly. As far as the technical side of guessing beat rates and setting the temperment ... well ... theres no quick and easy road there. I think I have seen most of the YouTube vids on tuning now and have bought several books on it. I am fortunate in having a junker baby grand to hone my (lack of) skills on. I wish I could get someone to tutor me for an hour or two for 100 bucks on tuning, it would be money well spent!!

It was my understanding that you should have some play between the hammer and the pin (ie not a super snug fit) so that you can kinda rock the hammer while setting the pin? It also makes small movements of the pin easier and more accurate? Maybe a tech can confirm this technique.

Just out of curiosity will you be using an ETD to start your tuning?. I am using TuneLab (free download) as a training aid and just out of curiosity. It's kinda cool, but I want to be an aural tuner with the ETD as a backup. Tuning is an interesting field with no end to perfecting it. I am gonna take the plunge and do the Randy Potter course starting in the new year.