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Bad CPO Experience... Tuned, TD1

Looking for some thoughts/advice on what I should do here. I bought a <1YO 2014 CPO S6 over three years ago, and have been enjoying it ever since. I brought it in for the 21F2 recall (this was a few months ago now), and when I went to pick it up, I was told that the work wasn't done because the car had been flashed and is in a "TD1" state.

I've since confirmed with APR that the car is indeed tuned, and it was done 7 months before I owned it (so about 1 month after it was bought new). As far as I can tell, that means it never should have been sold as a CPO, and now I can't have the recall work done, and I effectively lose the rest of the factory warranty and the entire CPO warranty on what are surely the most expensive parts of the car.

I called Audi of America, and they say that it's between me and the dealer, and as far as they're concerned my warranty is void on the engine/transmission. (Way to stand by your customers there...)

I'm working with the dealership on some sort of resolution, but I'm not even sure what what I think is fair. Maybe a 3rd-party warranty (they scare me though) or some restitution for the price difference between CPO and non?

I think Audi not standing by the CPO warranty when clearly the dealership didn't properly do their part is the most frustrating. How is a consumer to know that the CPO warranty will turn out to be void through no fault of their own?

Anyway, just looking for some thoughts, and hoping maybe another set of eyes at Audi on this will result in a better outcome.

How in the world can an Audi dealer sell you a ("300-point inspection" or whatever) Certified Pre-Owned vehicle and not know it was flashed? Surely they ran diagnostics. Where is their documentation of the certification "checklist"? Did they give you a copy?

I am considering an Audi CPO myself, so reading this post is very concerning to say the least.

Looking for some thoughts/advice on what I should do here. I bought a <1YO 2014 CPO S6 over three years ago, and have been enjoying it ever since. I brought it in for the 21F2 recall (this was a few months ago now), and when I went to pick it up, I was told that the work wasn't done because the car had been flashed and is in a "TD1" state.

I've since confirmed with APR that the car is indeed tuned, and it was done 7 months before I owned it (so about 1 month after it was bought new). As far as I can tell, that means it never should have been sold as a CPO, and now I can't have the recall work done, and I effectively lose the rest of the factory warranty and the entire CPO warranty on what are surely the most expensive parts of the car.

I called Audi of America, and they say that it's between me and the dealer, and as far as they're concerned my warranty is void on the engine/transmission. (Way to stand by your customers there...)

I'm working with the dealership on some sort of resolution, but I'm not even sure what what I think is fair. Maybe a 3rd-party warranty (they scare me though) or some restitution for the price difference between CPO and non?

I think Audi not standing by the CPO warranty when clearly the dealership didn't properly do their part is the most frustrating. How is a consumer to know that the CPO warranty will turn out to be void through no fault of their own?

Anyway, just looking for some thoughts, and hoping maybe another set of eyes at Audi on this will result in a better outcome.

Thanks!

Hello,

Thank you for raising awareness on this particular topic as I'm sure that this has been extremely surprising and frustrating to learn of when you were bringing your vehicle in for a standard recall service. If possible I would like to gather some additional information from you to make sure the proper resources are being utilized within our organization to develop a resolution for you. If you can send me over a PM with your contact information I would highly appreciate it.

FiveFan, yeah, it is crazy to me, too. I do have the CPO checklist, and it is checked that it's free from "current or evidence of past after market modifications. (Free from chassis, body, electrical, or engine performance modifications; free from ANY chip or wheel and tire modifications. Dealer installed OEM accessories are acceptable)"

The person I talked to from AoA said that they do show it was scanned as part of the CPO process, and the modification didn't show at the time. She said maybe I had turned it on or something, and that's why it shows up now. Ignoring the fact that I didn't even know it was there, so I certainly didn't turn it on, it seems from what I can find online that it should show up if it's on or off unless the car had been flashed back to stock. I also looked up what's involved to turn it on/off, and it's definitely not something I would have accidentally done.

She also seemed to indicate that the dealer that told me it was TD1 (I bought it out of state, so not taking it where I bought it) had determined that when I had brought it in earlier for routine maintenance, but apparently never bothered to tell me.

As it stands, I'd certainly take the CPO status with a grain of salt. If it can be voided after the fact through no fault of the consumer's, it really has no value.

Hoping that the dealer who sold the car is not the same dealer that refused to perform the recall (claiming TD1)... It is true that dealers perform the CPO certification, but if the same dealer is claiming a car they sold as “CPO”, is not actually CPO, that starts to sound more serious. What is the value of a CPO certification? “...by false promise, amount exceeds...” Seems like the customer experience rep understands how serious this actually could be. Good luck - you probably won’t need it once everything is on the table...

Uncle Buck: I have no idea about what the CPU logs or whatever, but I'd certainly welcome Audi checking it out. I will say that I turned it on and off once I heard back from APR to verify that it was truly tuned, but I've never gone anywhere with it on. (Although the temptation has been there...)

easy_button: It's a different dealer anyway. I bought it a few states away and broke it in with a drive home. Other than potentially not telling me about the TD1 (which would have been nice to know at the time), the local dealer hasn't done anything wrong IMHO.

I do think it's a serious issue. If it had been a lot sooner after I got the car, I think I would have gone for my money back. I still think if I lawyered up, that could be an option, but it's also been a good car that I've really enjoyed, so I am leaning towards a more reasonable solution. Heck, if the dealer I purchased it from had followed up with some options last week like they said they would (now the guy is out this whole week to boot), this post probably wouldn't even exist.

Honestly, If I were you I would consult a lawyer if this is not resolved- your car's status is not restored to what you were promised upon purchase.

A dealer marking a car CPO effectively guarantees that it has been vetted to the satisfaction of Audi to provide said warranty at any dealer. If a different dealer catches another dealer's mistake and denies you; that is wrong. They need to notify AOA for guidance. If you can prove that car was sold to you CPO, and that it was tuned prior to your purchase, this should not be an issue. It's simply one that slipped through the cracks and that is not your problem. If they have an issue with restoring your CPO status at Audi- they should buy back your car and get you into something they can honor a warranty on.

I urge you to keep us informed of your outcome. I have been shopping for a CPO and between this and the other thread about google earth becoming obsolete on cars that will be less than 3 years old, I am having serious second thoughts.

I definitely will follow up here. I appreciate the advice I've gotten so far, and Vincenzo has been very responsive in our conversations. Unfortunately, so far it's sounding like restoring the CPO warranty probably isn't an option, but nothing is final yet, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed. Definitely seems like if a tune is such a bad thing that it can't possibly be overlooked as far as the warranty goes, then they really should do a better job of making sure it's not there.

I definitely will follow up here. I appreciate the advice I've gotten so far, and Vincenzo has been very responsive in our conversations. Unfortunately, so far it's sounding like restoring the CPO warranty probably isn't an option, but nothing is final yet, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed. Definitely seems like if a tune is such a bad thing that it can't possibly be overlooked as far as the warranty goes, then they really should do a better job of making sure it's not there.

There is absolutely no way they did not know the car was tuned. Well one, they did not actually perform the CPO checklist - they dump diagnostic data when you get an oil change... There is no way this can be “overlooked”; they either did not actually “certify” the car (and sold it as CPO), or they saw it was tuned (which prevents them from certifying it) and sold it as CPO anyway. Well, I guess there is magic.

Basically Audi just contacted the dealership and said they have to work it out with me. I still feel like this reflects poorly on Audi and how they stand by their customers and their CPO program. They just stress that the CPO is a warranty provided by Audi, and it's void with the tune. As to why it was CPO in the first place, that's up to the dealer, not them. I get that's probably legally true, but I didn't feel like I was buying an Audi <Dealer Name> CPO vehicle, it was an Audi CPO vehicle. It's a pretty big distinction in my mind.

The dealership says they found a 3rd-party warranty for $1500, but I'd have to drive down there for an inspection. Well, it's 1000 miles each way, so that's not happening. I asked about having it inspected locally, and they said they can look in to that, or they could just give me a check for the $1500. Since I'm kind of tired with this whole thing, and may sell the car in the next year anyway (and no more Audis for me, I guess), I countered with $2k and I'd be done. Well, heard back today that they won't do that... $1500 is their best offer. I feel like that's roughly half the premium I paid for the CPO vehicle, so I'm not really very happy with that. I guess I could try to go through with the warranty inspection, if I can do it locally, but first I'd want to verify that the warranty is with a reputable company, and that it actually would cover a vehicle that had been tuned.

Thoughts? I definitely feel like they'er trying to do as little as possible to get me to go away. Might make sense to talk to a lawyer, but that can get expensive, too. I thought I gave them a pretty easy out with the $2k offer, honestly.

I guess I'd definitely say buyer beware on a CPO from Audi in any case. Maybe take it to another dealer or mechanic you trust before purchasing, at the very least.

So sorry to hear this, and is unfortunate. It does reflect poorly on Audi and terrible to see that all they can offer is at the dealer level in a 3rd party warranty. Just sounds like you got burned.

Without getting too cynical, I'd be curious to see how many others have been harmed by CPO as you have. If I were in your shoes, I would call Hagen's Berman just to discuss the situation and see if they could help advise. I believe they are already suing Audi, so I'm sure they would take the call. Never hurts to ask for help. Sometimes lawyers take it just as personally, money aside. https://www.hbsslaw.com/

Thanks, I appreciate that referral. I wasn't really sure who to reach out to.

It's definitely an unfortunate and frustrating situation... It feels like the dealerships can just check the boxes on the CPO checklist to defraud the customer, with basically no repercussions from Audi, other than "you need to work it out," and oh yeah, in the meantime if anything goes wrong with the car, it's me on the hook, not them.

You are right on it now. That's exactly the issue. If AOA is marketing and setting in place a vehicle in that CPO warranty that can be used for deceptive sales practices, and then they keep dealers at arms length.... Dealers can abuse the spirit of the warranty, neglect to disclose or out right pass cars not worthy only to deny said warranty claims later on. Who is responsible?

At least let AOA and the dealer know you are planning to explore consulting a consumer advocate attorney at Hagens Berman on the matter. At the very least it's an escalation and could take the conversation to another level.

I can imagine the rep putting a note into the system, "customer noted Legal Action, Hagens Berman..."
Alarm bells go off and it escalates internally once someone above the rep sees it.
Then legal reviews "oh, well... we are already getting sued class action by them. Where does this come back at us? Can it? Can we resolve it instead" Or "bring it on!"
A bit of humor in there but that's how I play through that scenario in my mind. Honestly, if you do feel you are getting screwed please don't sit back and take it. At least consult an attorney. I would if I were you before I took that money for the warranty. By taking it you may be releasing the dealer from any further liability.

Sorry to hear of your challenges. I would be furious. It seems Audi should, at best, buy the car back from you and, at worst, offer you in cash the value of the CPO.

You may want to contact the state attorney general office of the state in which you purchased it. Heck, contact the attorney general office of the state in which you currently reside (it would probably only take printing off/copying email sent to the purchasing state's attorney general). Only after you have exhausted all of your options, would I take the scorched earth approach and write poor reviews of the dealership online and file a complaint with the BBB.

Sorry to hear of your situation, I think I have seen of 2-3 instances on this forum of people who found themselves in a similar position in discovering the CPO car they purchased was tuned prior to the CPO process. I am not sure how those situations ended up being resolved but you may be able to find those posts with a bit of searching.

Some APR tunes (depending on the vehicle and the APR options chosen) have the ability to be switched between a performance mode and a stock mode, in any mode the software should show up on a dealership level scan. If the car was completely programmed back to stock at an APR distributor then a subsequent dealership level scan may possibly not detect it.

Thanks for the advice, doughboy17... State AG seems like it might be a good idea.

Skyler@Achtuning, After I found out it had been tuned, I looked up the instructions for APR, and can confirm that it is still on there. It lets me switch between 4 programs, but I don't even know what program is assigned to what slot, so I've just left it on 1.

I did manage to find one instance where a person had this happen, and they got their money back plus any money they had put into the car after the purchase. The big difference there is that theirs was discovered in the first couple of months, not 3+ years later. Maybe that shouldn't change anything, but if I'm being realistic, it seems like it does. Maybe I'm too nice. ;)

I would ask the selling CPO dealership for the total amount of the CPO warranty, not just "1500.00". I am not certain of the cost, but I have been told at my local dealership that the CPO cost is 2800... plus what ever the car needs to bring into compliance. This cost was passed on to you in full, not in partial...

Keeping the conversation going here helps, as AoA does watch this forum. The home office telling the dealer to “work it out” at a worthy dealer translates into “make the customer happy”; at the other kind of dealer it means “get out of this as cheaply as possible”. Counter with asking for the 1500 check AND they pick up the tab for the 3rd party warranty. That really is the only fair thing to do. They do need a gentle reminder that you do have a legitimate fraud case which will cost them more than 3 grand... and it isn’t just a tort claim.

Skyler@Achtuning, After I found out it had been tuned, I looked up the instructions for APR, and can confirm that it is still on there. It lets me switch between 4 programs, but I don't even know what program is assigned to what slot, so I've just left it on 1.

If you ever need to find out you should be able to call APR with the VIN # or stop in at an APR distributor, Avalon Motorsport in Denver are good guys. In 99% of cases the stock program is loaded in position #1 but not always.

Keeping the conversation going here helps, as AoA does watch this forum. The home office telling the dealer to “work it out” at a worthy dealer translates into “make the customer happy”; at the other kind of dealer it means “get out of this as cheaply as possible”. Counter with asking for the 1500 check AND they pick up the tab for the 3rd party warranty. That really is the only fair thing to do. They do need a gentle reminder that you do have a legitimate fraud case which will cost them more than 3 grand... and it isn’t just a tort claim.

Im not a lawyer but that Lehto guy would be perfect for this. To me this sounds like a contract issue. The OP purchased a vehicle with a warranty. End of story. The OP did nothing to breach the terms of the warranty.

Im not a lawyer but that Lehto guy would be perfect for this. To me this sounds like a contract issue. The OP purchased a vehicle with a warranty. End of story. The OP did nothing to breach the terms of the warranty.

At a minimum, OP did not get what he purchased. It may actually be that he was defrauded. So frustrating the certain businesses/dealers are sloppy or criminal.

I’d want the cost of CPO back, plus 3 years’ “interest” at the pre-judgement rate for damages at a minimum!

Audi doesn't want to deal with you, the dealer offering you a third party warranty is a joke. Go to a lawyer and make Audi buy the car back. The car you bought wasn't the car you thought you bought. They're trying to screw you! You have 100% right to make them buy the car back. This wouldn't be a fight... They're in the wrong...

Thanks, Lehto does seem like he might be worth contacting about this. I think I've seen some of his posts on Jalopnik or something like that, although not recently that I can recall.

I've had the thought that buying it back could be a possibility.... I just wish it had been discovered way sooner. Maybe I'm too nice, and that shouldn't matter. It's been a good car in the time I've had it, but it's obviously the fear of what happens when something does go wrong, since it now doesn't have the warranty, and was presumably driven with the tune on by the previous owner.

It's just such a frustrating situation. It feels like something they should be bending over backwards to try to fix, but that definitely isn't happening.

Basically Audi just contacted the dealership and said they have to work it out with me. I still feel like this reflects poorly on Audi and how they stand by their customers and their CPO program. They just stress that the CPO is a warranty provided by Audi, and it's void with the tune. As to why it was CPO in the first place, that's up to the dealer, not them. I get that's probably legally true, but I didn't feel like I was buying an Audi <Dealer Name> CPO vehicle, it was an Audi CPO vehicle. It's a pretty big distinction in my mind.

The dealership says they found a 3rd-party warranty for $1500, but I'd have to drive down there for an inspection. Well, it's 1000 miles each way, so that's not happening. I asked about having it inspected locally, and they said they can look in to that, or they could just give me a check for the $1500. Since I'm kind of tired with this whole thing, and may sell the car in the next year anyway (and no more Audis for me, I guess), I countered with $2k and I'd be done. Well, heard back today that they won't do that... $1500 is their best offer. I feel like that's roughly half the premium I paid for the CPO vehicle, so I'm not really very happy with that. I guess I could try to go through with the warranty inspection, if I can do it locally, but first I'd want to verify that the warranty is with a reputable company, and that it actually would cover a vehicle that had been tuned.

Thoughts? I definitely feel like they'er trying to do as little as possible to get me to go away. Might make sense to talk to a lawyer, but that can get expensive, too. I thought I gave them a pretty easy out with the $2k offer, honestly.

I guess I'd definitely say buyer beware on a CPO from Audi in any case. Maybe take it to another dealer or mechanic you trust before purchasing, at the very least.

The same exact thing happened to me.

I bought a car CPO and luckily the next day I was noticing my seat memories did not work so i took it to a more local dealership to me where they advised me the car was TD1 and literally said to me, "Just so you know that means your powertrain warranty is void and we wont be paying for anything related to that."

The selling dealer offered to basically void the sale with no penalties (which I was not keen on bc I had traded a car to them that I couldnt get back... and I liked that car lol) or they could offer me an extended warranty.

I told them I wanted a fidelity warranty that was platinum just like the CPO is platinum and I wanted it for no less than 3 year / 36K miles to best mirror the CPO warranty.

They gave me that warranty....

I went this option because most all states require them to list the cash value of the warranty and they allow you to cancel the warranty at any time for a full refund of the cash value. Thats not something up to the dealership to approve or not. Its the law.

So I got the warranty that was woth $4600 and I cancelled it that day and got a check in the mail for $4600 after about 2 weeks. I ended up getting a 2 year old Audi S5 with 30K miles for 27 grand. A car that pretty much has a bullet proof drivetrain.

Keep this in mind. If Audis position on TD1 is that the car is “damaged goods” then why should you accept the car? According to their own logic they sold you a defective car, when your were expressly informed otherwise.

Thanks for sharing your similar experience, bhvrdr. It's crazy that this happens at all, let alone to multiple people. Scanning it for a tune should be a pretty foolproof process, I would think.

As an update, I talked with Vincenzo again yesterday, and it seems like this might actually be coming to a resolution that I'm happy with. I'll hold off on giving details until it has all been finalized, but I'm actually optimistic about how the situation will be handled for the first time. Fingers crossed!

Well, I got up today thinking maybe this situation would finally be resolved, but a couple of hours before taking the car in to be flashed back to stock to reinstate the CPO warranty, I was told that further research on their end determined that they wouldn't follow through with that offer, and my warranty remains void.

They claim the car was scanned as part of the CPO process in July 2014, and no tune was found. This is despite proof from APR that it was tuned 7 months before I bought the car. Apparently the tune was discovered at the 25k service (but not at 2 prior service visits), back in Jan 2016. Annoyingly, I wasn't notified of the TD1 status until last Oct, nearly 2 years later. So their take is that I had it tuned somewhere in between those services. When I dropped the car off at the local Audi dealer this morning, they seemed to indicate that they don't even scan it every time it's in, so that doesn't seem like a valid argument.

Also, based on the prior verbal agreement to flash it back to stock, I made a deal with the original dealer that was for less that I would have otherwise accepted. They haven't actually followed through yet, though, so I guess I could still not cash the check if and when it shows up, but it puts me in even more of an awkward situation.

I guess I need to pursue legal action at this point, although one thing that worries me is how do you prove a negative? I can't prove that I didn't have it (re?)tuned after I bought it, but I can at least prove that it was definitely tuned before I did. Part of me wonders if it's worth the hassle... I could just sell it and never look back at Audi again. It's frustrating though, because it is a great car. Anyone interested in a tuned S6 that was basically never driven with the tune on? ;)

Long story short, buyer beware. That CPO warranty can be taken away at any time, through no fault of your own. :(

What is up with Audi? They need to make this right. There has to be some data in the ECM that indicates the date of the tune installation. Regardless they are just being obtuse about this. They know you are right but they dont want to help you.

I’m not understanding how the entire warranty is invalidated...as Mr. Lehto puts it:

“Obviously, an aftermarket camshaft or a hopped up ECU won’t void the entire warranty on your car. The master cylinder failed? The blue tooth quit working? Unless there is a logical connection between the mod and the part or system that failed, you should be good to go.”

Maybe you're better off selling the car and running. Based on the threads about blown turbos with the 4.0TT motors on this forum.. I wouldn't keep the car w/o a warranty. It's stuff like this + the Google Satellite view bait and switch that has soured me on the brand. After 8 Audis over 15 years, I don't know that my next car will be an Audi.

Maybe you're better off selling the car and running. Based on the threads about blown turbos with the 4.0TT motors on this forum.. I wouldn't keep the car w/o a warranty. It's stuff like this + the Google Satellite view bait and switch that has soured me on the brand. After 8 Audis over 15 years, I don't know that my next car will be an Audi.

Volvo is looking pretty good these days. I’m not an SUV/crossover guy - but that new XC40 looks pretty sweet. Maybe Volvo is the new Audi.

Yeah, it's not 100% of the warranty voided, but anything that could be blamed on the tune, so most of the engine/transmission, which in my mind is where the big bucks for a repair are. They also won't do the recall work that's supposed to be to help prevent turbo issues, so that's great, too...

Volvo is looking pretty good these days. I’m not an SUV/crossover guy - but that new XC40 looks pretty sweet. Maybe Volvo is the new Audi.

I test-drove the new XC40 and loved it. A Volvo that's actually fun to drive, as well as safe and sensible - imagine that. Perfect city car, perfect for a one or two-person household with the occasional need for another passenger or two, and/or modest cargo needs. The cargo area is the same as the XC60 in length, and just 4" narrower. The 40 is way more fun to drive.

If we hadn't had a few nice days when I was driving around with the top down on my Z, which made me realize my convertible-loving days were not yet over, I would have ordered one. It's a winner, for sure.

I’m not understanding how the entire warranty is invalidated...as Mr. Lehto puts it:

“Obviously, an aftermarket camshaft or a hopped up ECU won’t void the entire warranty on your car. The master cylinder failed? The blue tooth quit working? Unless there is a logical connection between the mod and the part or system that failed, you should be good to go.”

Basic Magnuson-Moss coverage, they can't void a warranty because you installed an air intake unless they can prove the part caused the failure. Also it should be pretty clear to anyone as that quote states tuning an ECU should not and can not void any warranty coverage on a tail light or clearly unrelated system. It was stated by OP early that he was informed the warranty on the engine/trans is voided which is correct, the recall mentioned is specifically for the ECU. So no one has been refused warranty work on their BlueTooth for an ECU tune.

That said, a recall is not a warranty claim per se and the fact that a recall SPECIFICALLY admits a failure in the original equipment, meaning it was faulty before the tune, seems odd to refuse to perform the recall. This recall is also specifically for programing, not a part that could have worn or been damaged by the tune.

I would certainly press hard and long on the dealer that sold the car as a CPO to make this right since they basically committed fraud by selling you a product (CPO warranty) and then refusing to uphold it. It would be nice if AoA could exert some force on them but ultimately the dealer screwed the pooch and is responsible. If you can prove when the car was tuned (which it certainly sounds like you can) it's pretty open/shut legally unless they can somehow show that they DID scan the car before you bought it and confirmed no tune. It is true that they do not need to run a full scan at every service, but they certainly should do so as part of the CPO certification to avoid customer service nightmares such as this.

Originally Posted by audrobotic

Volvo is looking pretty good these days. I’m not an SUV/crossover guy - but that new XC40 looks pretty sweet. Maybe Volvo is the new Audi.

You are aware that Volvo has stated they will only sell EV and Hybrid vehicles starting in like 2020 right? Pass, I like to go on road trips, EVs are worthless and hybrid's are fakers with heavy toxic batteries with compromised performance (unless you spend $250k or so for a McLaren or Ferrari lol). I'm going out to Pike's Peak today, right around a 300 mile round trip, that means I'd either have to stay the night to recharge a worthless EV or get stranded on the highway outside of town on the return trip. Pass LMAO