Posted
by
timothy
on Saturday December 22, 2012 @09:55PM
from the throw-him-into-the-pond dept.

An anonymous reader writes "It may be hard for Facebook HR infrastructure to keep up with the rapid growth of the company, so scheduling and performing Skype screening interviews with the prospective new developers appears deteriorating into disorderly jumble. In a blog post, a recent candidate for a development job at Facebook has shared his excruciation at coordinating and then having this preliminary interview, pointing out the unhelpfulness of HR staff at Facebook during all stages of the process."

The way I look at it (along with every other free social network type thing) is that you grow it as long as you can, and then when it starts to level off (because you either don't provide enough value to expand beyond your niche, or in the case of Facebook, just about anyone who could get on is already on) you figure out ways to monetize that captive audience.

Facebook is only different from Myspace, Friendster, Sixdegrees and so on in that they were able to appeal to a broader audience and sustain the growth for much longer. It will plateau, and it will fade away just like all the others, but it will take much longer from peak to irrelevance (I'd say roughly 8-12 years) because that many more people were there at the peak.

It was ALWAYS the strategy for Facebook. It's the strategy for *any* social service that doesn't charge the user base. If someone is running a free, for-profit service and don't plan to monetize the user base, then they are an idiot and the investors who gave him or her money to burn are idiots too. I think Zuckerberg is scum of the earth, but he's certainly not an idiot. His plan was always to sell his users like cattle.

HR is always a bunch of ass-sucking sycophants. That is true in every industry. Never count on meeting an intelligent person is HR. And NEVER count on them as an ally -- they are there for the company, not you. They ONLY time they might take your side is (if they are capable of understanding you) when you explain to them their managers have fucked up so badly, they will likely lose a lawsuit.

I have had only 2 major experiences with HR departments in my professional life. The first one claimed "they" were eager to help me in a dispute with my managers... then ended up stabbing me in the back.

The HR department (different company) I dealt with after that, however, I have to say was friendly and helpful.

I had an HR drone haggle me so much in response to the money issue that when I was hired, my manager appologized that he wouldn't be able to pay the agreed rate. The HR person put down a number lower than the lowest range for the position. I was given a $2000 raise before I even started. There's no reason for the HR person to have haggled me down so low, when the range was was well above the ranges we were talking. I'd been offered a job before, only to have it disappear when I asked for too much (then found a similar job for more elsewhere, so no great loss), so I was concerned about that again, so I was realistic but not pushy. Then he talked me down $10,000, implying that my initial number was too high, when it was still at the low end of the range, and he talked me down to a number lower than they could pay.

The only good thing is that I'll get many years of raises before I'm close to the position ceiling. I spent 7 years at the pay ceiling in a previous job I held for 8 years. Not even inflation raises there.

Another place I worked, I met the HR recruiter my first day, the first contact I had with him. Turns out I was hired in the back door, the IT department doesn't use HR because HR is incapable of screening IT professionals reliably.

All this talk of pay ceiling and being haggled down doesn't sound like a reasonable way to sell your services.

I make sure that any potential employer is in the right ballpark before I go to interview. No point in wasting anyone's time if the numbers don't stack up. After all, they already have a resume, so they know what I am capable. The interview should then be about making sure it is accurate, and that we are a good cultural fit for each other.

I make sure that any potential employer is in the right ballpark before I go to interview.

The new position was still a 25% raise over the old position. And the initial money talks start before the hiring manager sees resume.

IMHO you need to man up and not treat prospective employers as holding all the cards.

A job I had a few years back, I was desperate for a job, so I took the first offer. They knew I might be desperate, but didn't push it. But, when they knew I wasn't desperate (I had a job with them, now I could look at my leisure, rather than lose my house), they gave me a $10,000 raise at my 30 day review. Before I left, I found out that I was, for a time, the second hig

Currently taking my old work through Tribunal process due to incompetent HR.... Says it all really. Lovely company, wonderful people - but HR? Incompetent from the start, and at the end, and at most points in the middle

What is the critical thinking flaw? I've worked multiple places where the pay bands are set in stone, and you get raises up to a point, but never above the band. Some places are even statutorily set out that way. I had a teacher in high school that made about 20% more than her pay cap, so she'll never get another raise. She managed to be above the pay cap when the cap was lowered, and the district didn't cut any pay above it. If she started a few years later, she'd never have hit that pay level. For t

I see how that turned out kind of funny, even though it wasn't meant that way. I quit that first job, and the position I took after that was with a company with no HR department. The other one I mentioned was some years later.

I even take issue with the term Human Resources. Resources in an office context are computers, filing cabinets, copiers, etc. I'm a person, not a fucking resource! If management places people in the same category as furniture, then no wonder these companies are such god-awful places to work.

I even take issue with the term Human Resources. Resources in an office context are computers, filing cabinets, copiers, etc. I'm a person, not a fucking resource! If management places people in the same category as furniture, then no wonder these companies are such god-awful places to work.

Yes, you are a resource -- a source of profit that is to be exploited as hard as possible for as long as possible, to extract as much value for the company as possible; then discarded and abandoned at the first instant you no longer provide profit.

You are not a human being to them, because they are not human beings. They are management drone units. You are work drone unit. Nothing more. It's just business.

The thing that really gets me is that the word "resources" feels like staff are a commodity: all drones are the same component, necessarily interchangeable, and if you need more done then you hire more drones and/or hire more expensive drones.

In reality, acknowledging the individual strengths (and addressing the individual weaknesses) of the real people working for an organisation is one of the biggest motivating factors there is. In contrast, and counter-intuitively to some people, just offerin

When your boss or Finance or whoever wants to impress the shareholders with cost reductions

I think you found the problem right there: management should be impressing the shareholders/private owners by generating good returns. You can do that by reducing costs, or you can do it by generating more revenues, or both. But you can only reduce costs so far and still get the job done, while if you do a good job the increase in revenues can be almost unlimited in many industries.

In my experience, the kind of management team who think of their staff as interchangeable components and understand their busin

HR was introduced to stop the development of unions and handle unions where they already existed. A pseudo management limbo if you will. Anything else they now have on their plate they fail at miserably. The biggest downfall is not understanding they should be an internal customer service oriented department like IT or facilities.

HR are the modern-day equivalent of the secretary who is there to save the ass of her completely incompetent boss, simply by virtue of the fact that she knows how to keep a todo list and just gets her job done without thinking too much.

I beg to differ. I've been hired at two different companies in my career where the HR staff did an amazing job of getting an offer to me in a hurry and arranging the meetings I had to have to get those offers. Now, that's two instances over a couple of decades, but it only takes one counter-example to disprove your claim.

On the side of the company? Not in my experience. HR is not on anyone's side. They are there to prevent hiring, as near as I can tell. In every organization I've ever been in, they seem to see their job as blocking you from getting hired, or if you're on the other end, preventing you from hiring the people you need.

HR Is full of the prom queens and football captains who everyone loves but who have no idea what they're doing at actual work, so you put them in HR, so they have a career but never actually touch a customer project.

This should come as no surprise though. In these modern times of recession and people being made unemployed due to robots it really is a buyer's market and employers can pull as much "shit" as they like and still have a queue of people outside the door looking for jobs.

This should come as no surprise though. In these modern times of recession and people being made unemployed due to robots it really is a buyer's market and employers can pull as much "shit" as they like and still have a queue of people outside the door looking for jobs.

A queue of desperate people. The good people will never put up with this shit and get jobs through their own personal network that bypasses HR. Ask any manager who needs to fill a slot about the quality of people they get from HR. And I have not gotten a job through traditional means for about 20 years.

Mainly because HR has wormed it's way into companies via legislation...Sarbanes/Oxley, various harassment type legislation, etc. They seem themselves as some great service and necessary but everyone knows that they are just idiots. If you're lucky the only time you will ever hear from HR is the day you are hired, benefits enrollment and the day you quit.

This should come as no surprise though. In these modern times of recession and people being made unemployed due to robots it really is a buyer's market and employers can pull as much "shit" as they like and still have a queue of people outside the door looking for jobs.

A queue of desperate people. The good people will never put up with this shit and get jobs through their own personal network that bypasses HR. Ask any manager who needs to fill a slot about the quality of people they get from HR. And I have not gotten a job through traditional means for about 20 years.

I do not know why companies still put up with this...

I don't know in what kind of organization you work, but in most large companies you can't go about hiring people without following the official process. Many times when I had good candidates in my network I had to tell them to send their resume to HR - event trying to get them together with the hiring manager for a coffee would possibly jeopardize their application.

I don't know in what kind of organization you work, but in most large companies you can't go about hiring people without following the official process. Many times when I had good candidates in my network I had to tell them to send their resume to HR - event trying to get them together with the hiring manager for a coffee would possibly jeopardize their application.

In the UK it's quite common for companies to offer bonuses to staff for introducing suitable candidates in order to get recommendations. If I introduce someone who is taken on and gets through the six month probation period, I get a four figure bonus (the first figure is quite small, admittedly!). I think that's partly because it's a lot cheaper than using agencies, who typically charge a high percentage of the first year's salary.

in most large companies you can't go about hiring people without following the official process

I was hired by a very large company two years ago. My hiring process was essentially backwards: I did a 'phone interview with the VP first where he did most of the talking, was told I'd got the job and then spoke to to the HR person. The HR step was just a formality; she'd already been instructed to hire me.

Personal connections always beat the official process.

That must be indeed a very large company if "the" VP took the time to make a phone interview. I guess he then told the CEO all about you and together they pressured the head of HR to bypass the typical hiring process while they were all waiting for they turn to use the microwave in the break room.

Indeed, it's very hard to weed out complainers in an HR process, but they are enormous drains on productivity, even one slip and you can be toxic to a potential employer if they are expressly trying to minimize problem employees.

I've had to work with a few of those over the years, one who was an old codger that refused to use e-mail and demanded an office in an area only accessible via stairwell (not allowed because students (i.e. customers) with mobility issues could never get there), and refused t

Surely the difficult thing is figuring out whether the complaints are valid?

I don't want to hire someone who is going to make mountains out of molehills and whine about every little thing [he said slightly hypocritically, having probably been guilty of that plenty of times himself in his early career]. But on the other hand, if there is a real problem, even a small one, that is unnecessarily interfering with someone's ability to get the job done or their satisfaction with how they do it, then I want to hire

I'm not sure about a stream of minor complaints from each new starter. I think this can so easily become "we did it differently at my last place" and you need some experience of how it works at the new place too before you can start fixing it. There will be low hanging fruit that's immediately obvious on their first day but given you've managed to avoid burning the place down so far, it's not as if you're sitting around waiting for your new hires to tell how it's done.

But you would hire someone who gets so upset over a few minor communication issues? Doesn't sound like a guy who can cope well under pressure to me.

I don't mean to insult anyone, but that describes most developers I have met. Not all, but most.The dependence on technology and inability to route around problems astounds me at times.

As for this guy, when I read the summary, I thought "butthurt kid". After reading more, I would add a couple more adjectives. Neither of which would be "flexible" or "result oriented".[b]It does not matter[/b] whether HR are idiots or not. It's [b]your[/b] job to get the job done despite such setbacks. If you aren't will

Seriously. Why should we care about this guy's complaints in the least?

I've had job interviews in the past that left me with a bad opinion of a company... and know what I did? Hint: Whining about it online wasn't it. I chalked it up to experience and thanked my lucky stars I figured it out before working there. In the few cases I got an offer from them, I politely declined.

I'm tempted to complain about "kids today", but the grass is in pretty sorry shape right now so I don't care if they're standing on it.

Yep. Sounds like this was a student who got his first taste of the real world. I'm not at all sorry for him. A few more experiences like that and he'll probably adjust his attitude to the realities of life outside his dorm.

- Email problems with the HR drone
- Skype call interview organised for a time not convenient for him
- Network issues during the call

Certainly we can ignore the network issues... but I think he is wrong there anyway. If the interviewer had simply called back 5 minutes later, the call would very probably have taken a somewhat different route.

But as for those other two? Not so fast!

He didn't have "email problems" with the HR drone. He showed a very clear pattern of negligence.

As for the actual scheduling, he also showed a persistent pattern of negligence.

That's not the same as a simple mistake or foulup here or there. The pattern seemed pretty clear to me.

And all cellphones (literally every one I've ever owned or examined) have speakerphone. They stopped listing it as a feature even for most "feature phones" a few years ago, because it's like advertising a car as possessing adjustable seats or automatic dome lights or some such. Not actually required, but you won't see anything that doesn't have it.

it seems if the problem is stress, i would consider reaching out to a social support network and/or a counselor. i can only tell you that many people have survived much worse, and even discovered shards of happiness along the way. good luck.

It was horrendous. Not the best speaker at the best of times, it was a total flop over video. The format made it hard to read body language and get a feel for where the interview was going, the lag made it a PITA with people talking over each other and also made it hard to read how the discussion was going. In the end, though I was well qualified for the position, I realized I had not made a single good case for why they should hire me. Naturally, I didn't get a call back and I couldn't blame them. I would avoid doing it again in future if at all possible.

from the rant:"I've been using the best Internet connection available -- the wired LAN at the Israel Institute of Technology. (To give an impression of its network infrastructure: the Institute had been allocated two of the handful Israeli class-B IP ranges.) On the day of the interview, I've made a test call to a friend in Israel (some 120km away from the Institute), to confirm that the call quality is perfect. Nevertheless, when the interviewer called me, I couldn't hear him properly"

Does he have any idea how the internet works? Just because you have a good connection to another part of the country does not mean you get good connection to the rest of the world.

That part sounded to me like someone who doesn't know much about networking trying to sound cool. The size of your network allocation has nothing to do with how well you can get bits halfway around the world.

I don't think this guy understands much about how corporate networking works. If he's a developer, I suppose he doesn't need to, but maybe he could check into details before writing:

"isn't it worthwhile for Facebook recruiting to prepare for such a case, and make the interviewer able to switch to a different Facebook IP range, to give Skype routing a second chance?"

Yeah, um, I don't know of *any* company that would set up their HR staff for such a scenario. And this interviewee doesn't seem to understand how Internet routing works. Assuming the particular Facebook HR office is BGP multi-homed, the Facebook NetOps staff would have to determine what IP address the interviewee is connecting with and then modify BGP local-preference for that AS number to use a different ISP outbound. Or, have two networks with different outbound ISPs available at every desk with staff trained to switch between them.

It would be utterly ludicrous to do something like this for an interview.

What's surprising is they didn't try another option like Google Hangouts. Perhaps as a Facebook competitor, it isn't an option. Did the interviewee not have a speakerphone? He mentions being unable to both type and talk... I think they solved that problem in the 1980's.

And this interviewee doesn't seem to understand how Internet routing works.

But it's a university with two class Bs... Don't you get it? They're fucking PRO there in Israel. (pardon my french). Don't bother with that BGP stuff, he obviously doesn't know what it is, nor why Facebook isn't going to bend over backwards to accomodate him.

Did the interviewee not have a speakerphone? He mentions being unable to both type and talk... I think they solved that problem in the 1980's.

The speakerphone would've picked up the "Whaa Whaa Whaa" from the whaaaaambulance on his blog.

Don't get me wrong, but the following passage was telling:

My interview was finally scheduled three weekdays in advance, leaving me in fact one day to prepare, because I've already had plans for the other weekday and the weekend.

Why didn't he prepare in advance? If he knew it was coming any time soon, why not brush up on it in advance? Why wait until the company says "Well, next week" and bitch about having to cancel his plans, which he eventually doesn't do.

So allow me to simply summarize the entire blog in an all too familiar onomatope: Waaaaaaah

Yeah, they were a week late to a 3 month interview. If I were having a CS test 3 months out, I'd "study" spread out over that time to be ready on the day. Usually a few days delay would be more a benefit than hindrance. He sounded like he wasn't going to take any effort until he had a firm date. With that level of inflexibility, I think Facebook is better off without him.

"isn't it worthwhile for Facebook recruiting to prepare for such a case, and make the interviewer able to switch to a different Facebook IP range, to give Skype routing a second chance?"

Yeah, um, I don't know of *any* company that would set up their HR staff for such a scenario. And this interviewee doesn't seem to understand how Internet routing works.

Ah, yes, an elaborate, yet effective, ruse. Not always the best of interview strategies, but anyone can memorize a zen koan or simple code writing exercise. How many can stay unfrustrated while they become a skype super-node mid interview? I wonder how much MS charges for the new clandestine screening process feature? I'm impressed.

Given all that potential difficulties why would a company like Facebook, which lives and dies on the Internet and surely understands its complexity, use something as unreliable as Skype for an interview?

I use phones, in fact I set up a land line just for my last job search so that this would not be an issue. The reliance on Skype for something like this is a poor choice.

I was confused in reading the write-up. If the interview was scheduled three months in advance, why did he say that he only had one day to prepare for the "CS" style interview? Where did this "December Interview Preparation Tips" come from? Only partial bits of data are given, none of which support the poster's side of the story.

And what phone were you using that didn't have speaker phone capabilities? Nearly all land line phones do that, as well as all mobile phones. Skype crap happens all the time, even on perfect connections. You roll with it. And, if you can't, then you'll likely have problems in a technology company.

In summary, this reads as: "HR department had too many applicants and I slipped between the cracks for scheduling, then I bombed my interview but it really wasn't my fault. Really!"

And what phone were you using that didn't have speaker phone capabilities? Nearly all land line phones do that, as well as all mobile phones.

Huh? None of mine do, and damn few of the others that I am familiar with, especially outside of businesses. Mobile phones, yeah, but that assumes you can do a Skype call with a computer link from a mobile phone. Can everybody interface their desktop/laptop with their smartphone? (I wouldn't know, I've got a dumbphone.)

The HR rep told him in October that his interview would be in December and he procrastinated prepping until he knew the exact date. Yet he bitches about not having enough time to prepare? Also, I don't understand why he couldn't type and talk at the same time if they ended up having to use a phone call for audio. All cell phones have a speaker phone function and if he was using a landline he could've held the phone to his ear with his shoulder.

His whole blog post is just a giant whine-fest. If he can't handle the stress of the unknowns in an interview then how can he expect to handle the stress of working at a fast-paced company like Facebook?

Many share their good and bad interview experiences with {Google, FB, MS, Apple etc} on a daily base. Why is this one getting any extra attention?

Because Slashdot figured out years ago that in order to monetize the use base, they needed to keep people coming back as often as possible, and in order to do that they need stories.

Unfortunately, most of the original and competent editors are long gone, and the current batch of editors posts pretty much anything they receive (additionally, many digg-level intellects now have accounts here to vote on the firehose, perpetuating the editors' mistaken belief that we want this crap).

If you have difficulty expressing yourself in front of others for whatever reason (stage fright, for instance) consider joining Toastmasters [toastmasters.org].

It's a club for people who want to learn to speak in front of an audience. It's got branch clubs all over the world, so there's probably one near you. They meet twice a month (more or less - depending on the club) and have a nominal yearly dues.

After about two years of going you start to "get the hang of it" and become more relaxed and fluent when talking to groups.

If you think you might get a Skype interview and if you have trouble with presentations, you should check them out.

Some free opportunities for public speaking and talking with strangers (without being the crazy person bothering people on the street)

- Go to a local town government meeting and talk about something during the public speaks out portion.- Volunteer to help out at some local event.- Join meetup groups with events that involve "show & tell" or "lightning talks"- Go to a flea market or farmer's market and have a conversation with the vendors about the products they're selling.

+1 to this, I was the president of the local chapter at my school for a while, and it's really a great experience to at least give a few speeches, even if you don't ascend though all their speeches.
I don't know if this is applicable to every chapter, but the impromptu speeches we had near the end of our meetings were another awesome experience, and they're only about a minute long on a topic drawn at random. I'd say these are probably the single best source of experience in getting out in front of a crowd

Recruiter sitting at his desk with his head in his hands and a half-empty bottle of cheap Scotch nearby, just waiting for the axe to come down. The phone rings. He picks it up to stop the noise and
"Hello, Facebook recruiting. I think you have the wrong number."

"No, I'm looking for a job at Facebook."

"Hey, that's great, my first one since...uhh you do know Facebook already had the IPO, right? I tried not telling people that but the boss got mad."

Have you heard the idealistic crap that spews out of that place? I'd say it's a bit too late for them to avoid hiring wusses. If people weren't so damned ignorant about what Facebook is doing or had at least some inkling of what a company like Facebook could do with the results of continuous surveillance of their lives, they'd quit using it. Indeed, I sometimes wish that someone would hurry up and dox those people at Facebook who continue to insist that privacy as a concept, theirs excepted of course, is ou

Human Resources is not usually a leadership group: they're following practices set forth by the company's management. If they're scheduling events 3 months in advance without an actual date, and setting the date in the last week at their own convenience and not the convenience of the job candidate, that means the problem is a policy one above the pay grade of the individual HR person. A job interview is always a two way process: let this be a strong hint that you'd be merely a cog in a very big machine.

The author is a whiny brat. People need jobs right now. He fills an entire page bitching about the scheduled time of his interview.Sometimes, management wants you, and HR is there to ensure you will pursue no matter what. This may not have been thecase in this instance, but regardless, dude needs to grow the fuck up.

Here are his 3 complaints;

1. Scheduling issues2. Lack of time to study for an entry test3. Issues using Skype

First, just because they ask you for times, doesn't mean they can always honor them. Hell, I get 1 hr with my boss a week. It's called work, get used to it.

Second, you are complaining that the scheduling didn't give you time to study for something you should know like the back of your hand? Companies on the size and scale of Facebook don't need fresh out of Uni candidates. They need people that can get the job done, and know their trade.

Third, issues happen with VOIP, since you will always be at the mercy of the intermediary nodes in the path between point A and point B. The OP proposed a solution that was the most ridiculous I had ever heard in my entire life. He asked about using a different network (i.e., IP range) for the call to take place on. He didn't ask about using a land line, or cellular instead.

Long story short, he is a prime example of why many college kids can't find work. All expectation, and no social value.

I was all eager to read the article and nod in disgust at Facebook's incompetence, but after reading a bit, I have to say, "Grow up, crybaby!"

Do you have many candidates that know three months in advance their available timeslots? Do you expect all these timeslots to remain reserved for the three months, until the interview is finally scheduled?

Boo hoo hoo! It's called living life as an adult. Sorry you're used to not having to plan future commitments. If the interview is so important, keep your day open, kid!

My interview was finally scheduled three weekdays in advance, leaving me in fact one day to prepare, because I've already had plans for the other weekday and the weekend. Do you have many candidates who can prepare for a CS exam in one day? Or do you expect them to be ready to abandon their plans at zero notice?

Boo hoo hoo! If preparing for the interview is so important to you, cancel your precious "plans". How is their HR supposed to know you have a keg stand to appear at over the weekend?

In the one day that I've had available, I've been reading up like mad, and still obviously I couldn't prepare as well as I'd like to. The feeling of coming to a CS exam unprepared builds up the lack of confidence during the interview, and contributes to the stress -- as if the stress from the important interview itself wasn't enough.

Boo hoo hoo! I don't know my shit like I should, so I'm going to have to "cram" instead and try to sound smarter than I am! This is really stressful and hurts my feelings!!

Then comes the punch: the coding exercise during my interview didn’t involve any intricate algorithms or data structures, none at all, just robust coding. Exhausted and stressed by the rushed preparation, turning out useless, I was so perplexed -- as if I’ve not only come to an exam unprepared, but after all to a wrong exam.

Boo hoo hoo! I couldn't guess what my interviewer would ask me, which is sooooo unfair, and I wasted a lot of time trying to fool them!

Both Amazon and Google led me around by the nose for a month or two (Amazon was the worse) during the interview process, constantly coming up with new people I had to interview with, most of whom were completely unrelated to the job I was trying to get. Facebook, incidentally, was much more straightforward. I ended up not going to any of the big companies, though.