Although I thought Michael Moore could have been more eloquent in what he said, I am glad he did it. I love the irony of him getting a standing ovation when he received the award and the mixture of cheers and boos afterwards. It is overlooked that he was not simply speaking for himself but all the documentary film producers who all came on stage. The booing happened so quickly after he started to speak that I became very suspicious. When the camera panned the audience no one appeared to be that upset. Oh well..

It just seems odd that we are invading Iraq to bring freedoms to its people and then try to squelch those same freedoms in our own country. Michael Moore has always chronicled what is wrong with the military/industrial control of our country from "Roger and Me," to "Bowling for Columbine," to writing a New York Times bestseller called "Stupid White Men," it was clear that he was not going to walk on stage and say nothing. I think he added to fire to a proceeding that was pretending as though nothing was occuring outside the walls of the Academy Award theatre.

Michael said what he had to say. He was not censored. ABC TV LOVED the controversy!!!! >>> I think NOT! The booing must have been a conspiracy and the laughter at Steve Martin's joke must have been rehearsed. OJ and Robert Blake didn't do it. And the French are really our friends!

Michael/CleoHarvey--u go boy--Have we forgotten freedom of speech?The Dixie Chicks have been villified and yet the Pope just spoke out agst the war. Does anyone stop and think the courage it takes to speak up?Im ashamed that the liberals in Hollywood said almost nothing--what happened to Ms Streisand?Anyone remember how this country got started?And Michael Moore or myself in no way are disrespecting our brave soldiers. This backlash agst free speech and the NECESSITY of others being heard concerns me almost as much as the Iraq situation.

The Dixie Chicks.... I don't agree with them but they backpedaled, they Dixie Chickened out. They were paranoid that it might cost them a few more million dollars in record sales. NOW IT IS THEY THAT SOLD OUT!! Bought and paid for by the big record machine.

The protesters are not alone. There is NO backlash against free speech. It's all wide open every single day. Try that in Iraq.

Not everyone has to take an entertainment extravaganza to express their political views. However, it was allowed. It was not censored or bleeped out. But many in attendance thought that even in the Democratic Republic of Hollywood that it was out of place.

Did you see the look of the emotionless first 4 rows of Hollywood's beautiful people? They were on camera. They were frozen. There was nowhere to hide and they knew it. And so did ABC.

I PERSONALLY THINK THAT MICHAEL MOORE IS A JERK...THE KIND OF KID THAT ALWAYS HAD TO DO SOMETHING TOTALLY OBNOXIOUS AND DISGUSTING TO GET ANY ATTENTION AND RECOGNITION...ALBEIT NEGATIVE!!!...HIS "ROGER & ME WAS KIND OF CUTE (IN AN ODD WAY)...BUT HAVING INTERVIEWED ROGER SMITH ON NUMEROUS OCCASSIONS DURING MY NEWSCASTING DAYS IN DETROIT...ROGER WAS THE *PERFECT* TARGET FOR MOORE!!!...ROGER SMITH WAS ESSENTIALLY A "BEAN COUNTER" WITH A VERY BLAND PERSONALITY WHO FELT UNCOMFORTABLE IN CONFRONTATIONAL SITUATIONS...SO MICHAEL HAD HIS PATSY...AND PARLAYED IT INTO MAJOR BUCKS...AND THE SELF ANNOINTED SPOKESMAN FOR ANYONE WHO'S CAUSE...JUST OR UNJUST...WOULD IRRITATE THE STATUS QUO!!!...HAD MICHALE COME UP AGAINST A JOHN DELOREAN OR HENRY FORD 11...HIS ASS WOULD HAVE BEEN GROUND UP FOR HAMBURGER...AND WE NEVER WOULD HAVE HEARD FROM HIM...SO I GUESS THAT HIS GOOD FORTUNE HAS GIVEN HIM A PLATFORM TO SPEW HIS RHETORIC...AND LIKE DON KING SAYS..."ONLY IN AMERICA"!!!...STU

And so we see that the real definition of political correctness is that we can't criticize the war or the unelected president -- even though he continues to work day and night to abolish the right of choice, create a second-class citizenry, bring creationism to public schools and defund higher education for racial minorities.

And this after 9/11, when we were supposedly so united as a people...Ask yourself who the real cynics and exploiters are here, playing hardball politics while waving the flag and sending our young off to lose their lives.

And dont forget: the right to carry a concealed gun is much more important than the tight of free speech!

Well, this thread isn't about the rights of free speech or lack of it. The right to be armed or the lack of it, etc. As it has been said over and over again in various threads...say whatcha wanna !!! Or as George Clinton would say, "Think !! It ain't illegal yet!" So, Speak up !!! Say what's on your mine !!! THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS THAT MAKES THIS COUNTRY SO GOD GIVEN GREAT !!!! No one's holding a gun on you while you say whatcha saying - aimed right at your head. Got ya countries mixed up ??

This thread is about michael moore and Steve Martin's response to his "quips" on tv (personally, I agree with TD...Paul Justman should've been up there but that's history).

I'm glad that Steve said what he said. Let the Teamsters help michael in the trunk of his limo...I respect (in the loosest term of the word) the things that he said, but it was said without foundation and all speculation (surely, another can of worms will be opened).

In a world with Rush Limbaugh, we need a Michael Moore (and vice versa). They are both in the business of setting up exaggerated straw men of people who are on the other side of the political spectrum and then pointing to their straw men and saying how ridiculous they are. Being reasonable does not seem to get you an audience. I don't really have any use for either one of them, but I suppose they serve a purpose. They seem to be satirists passing themselves off as serious commentators.

NICE TAKE KEN...EXTEMEMISTS FROM EITHER END OF THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM ARE JUST THAT...EXTREME...AND RUSH LIMBAUGH'S CONTINUAL CLINTON BASHING IS JUST AS MISGUIDED AS MICHAEL MOORE'S LAMBASTING OF OUR CURRENT PRESIDENT ON AN AWARDS SHOW!!!...YES...THE CONSTITUTION DOES GIVE ANYONE THE RIGHT TO BE OBNOXIOUS...BUT LET'S AT LEAST RECOGNIZE IT FOR WHAT IT IS...OBNOXIOUS!!!...DOES THAT MAKE ME A "RADICAL MODERATE"???...STU

I MUST "FESS UP" TO THE FACT THAT I DO IN A WAY OWE A SMALL DEBT OF GRATITUDE TO ONE RUSH LIMBAUGH!!!...ABOUT FIVE YEARS AGO...I WAS ON THE MAIN THOROUGHFARE IN MY COMMUNITY HEADED FOR THE FREEWAY...WHEN I WAS LIT UP AND PULLED OVER BY THE CHP (CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL)...THE OFFICER...A JETHRO BODINE LOOKING CHARACTER WITH SUNGLASSES APPROACHED MY CAR AND TOLD ME THAT I WAS DOING 55 IN A 45 ZONE...AND PROCEEDED TO WRITE ME UP!!!...AS HE WAS WRITING...HE FLIPPED HIS CLIPBOARD TOWARD ME...AND ON THE BOTTOM WAS A BUMPER STICKER WITH THE WORDS..."RUSH IS RIGHT"!!!...HMMMM!!!...UPON GETTING HOME...I CALLED THE LOCAL CHP CAPTAIN AND ASKED HIM IF IT WAS PROPER FOR OFFICERS TO DISPLAY POLITICAL PROPAGANDA TO THE PUBLIC!!!...AFTER HIMMING AND HAWING...HE SAID PROBABLY NOT!!!...I THEN CALLED CHP IN SACK-A-TOMOTOES (SACRAMENTO)...AND SPOKE WITH TWO PUBLIC RELATIONS OFFICERS VOICING THE SAME OBJECTIONS!!!...THREE DAYS PRIOR TO MY COURT DATE...I AGAIN CALLED THE LOCAL CAPTAIN...AND TOLD HIM THAT THE ISSUE IN MY CASE WAS NOT GOING TO BE HOW FAST I WAS GOING...BUT THE POLITICAL VIEWS EXPRESSED BY HIS OFFICER WHILE ON DUTY BEING PAID BY THE TAXPAYERS!!!...COURT DAY...I SHOW UP...AND SHORTLY AFTER COURT WAS CALLED INTO SESSION...THE JUDGE ASKED EVERYONE WHO WAS THERE ON A TICKET WRITTEN BY THIS PARTICULAR OFFICER TO STAND UP!!!...ABOUT 12 OF US DID...AND THE JUDGE INFORMED US ALL THAT THE OFFICER WOULD BE UNABLE TO MAKE IT TO COURT...AND THAT ALL OF OUR TICKETS WERE DISMISSED!!!...THAT OFFICER...I UNDERSTAND...WAS TRANSFERRED TO NORTHERN CALIFORNIA TWO WEEKS LATER...CHALK UP ONE FOR THE "GOOD GUYS"!!!...STU

PS TO VANDELRON: WHILE I HAVE THE UTMOST RESPECT FOR THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND THE HIGH OFFICE OF THE POPE...MAY I RECOMMEND THAT THE POPE'S TIME WOULD BE MUCH BETTER SPENT WORKING TO ELIMINATE PEDIPHILES AND SEXUAL ABUSERS AND THEIR APOLOGISTS FROM THE MIDST OF THE CHURCH'S HEIRACHY RATHER THAN PONTIFICATING ON THE NATIONAL DEFENSE AND SECURITY OF THE UNITTED STATES OF AMERICA!!!...STU

THANKS KEN: WE ALL DESERVE A BREAK ONCE IN A WHILE...AND WHEN THE STUPIDITY OF THOSE CHARGED WITH ENFORCING OUR LAWS TAKES PRECEDENCE TO SUCH "MINOR" VIOLATIONS...I MUST ADMIT TO BECOMING EVER THE OPPORTUNIST!!!...GOTTA GO NOW...OR I'LL BE DOING 75 DOWN THE PARKWAY!!!...STU

Isn't it utterly ironic that with all the protests and all of the complaining and all of the lack of free speech accusations here that NOBODY seems to consider the Iraqi people. The new holocaust victims. The people with zero rights. What do the so-called peaceniks have to say about true oppression and brutal human rights violations? Oh I'm sorry, maybe we should negotiate some more.

You're right - what the hell. Let's DEMOCRATISE Iraq - nevermind that basic tenets of Democracy conflict with basic tenets of the Holy Qur'an. In fact , let's make Iraq the 51st State.

The "Iraqi people" that the previously unintereseted in human rights are so concerned about are not some monolithic tribe willing to be led around by the nose by some paternalistic great white missionaries. There are many factions ; however if the powers that be are sincere about free elections etc there is every reason to believe that the Ba'ath Party has the numbers to maintain power (this ain't Florida) . What then ? Recent events show that despite our leaders lip service , rehabilitation is not something that holds our interest . Afghanistan has reverted to a pre-Taliban 'Warlord'ism/gangsta rule situation and not one house - not ONE - even in Kabul , has been rebuilt with international assistance. This is the environment that led to the Taliban rise in power. But that's last years sh*t, right?

Even taking the cynical stuff out of the picture (Halliburton secures 4 billion to rehab sanction-ravaged refineries and deal with potential oil fires ; when did they start taking bids - '97?), comparing the lack of rights as we know them in Iraq to the Holocaust is way over the top. Maybe it's not a life you or I would prefer , but it's a life. Unilateral containment is the wave of the future - there are too many toys available to everyone to think that traditional war is the answer. I'd also hate to think what would happen to our troops if we were fighting a country with a REAL army. Of course I'm sure efforts at diplomacy would be a little less transparent if we were facing conflict with more threatening adversaries.

Thanks, Steve...too bad the facts don't always register the way the rah-rah-rah does. Of course I'm concerned about women's rights and voting and genital cutting in the world of Islam. It's the same thing when the far-right tries to take away Title IX and the right of choice from women here.

But hey, the right to buy more guns is the MOST IMPORTANT RIGHT IN THE CONSTITUTION, DON'T FORGET IT.

Despite tribalism and other factionalism, pre-Saddam Iraq was one of the more progressive Arab countries with one of the best educated populations. I'm not saying it fit any western ideal, but I do believe there is some seriously misleading stuff being posted here. Since we are so far afield of the forum's topic, though, I think I will take this opportunity to bow out of the discussion.

Ken - I agree - global politics gives me a gutache and even with all the misgivings I have with the current military undertaking, this forum is kind of a sanctuary away from that stuff. Of course I'm kind of drawing a blank coming up with intersting threads at the moment and I tend to think more about politics than what singer has the worst gum disease or whatever...hey, I know. The worst Tv News 'reporters' Let's see - Brian "how's my hair" Williams ! OR Bill 'do these pants make my butt look fat" Hemmer. Maybe Lester 'Clutch Cargo' Holt . Or Bill "Asshat" O'Reilly. And we should keep our eyes open for the future Playboy Pictorial "Babes of CNN" featuring Frederika "What Me Worry" WHitfield , Daryn 'stringy but tender' Kagan......I mean seriously do female journalists have to win beauty pageants or something to be reporters? I never see regular looking folks like Candy Crowley or Bobbie Battista anymore. Junk food for thought.......

You go BCNYC--no backlash against free speech?????????????then why are the Dixie Chicks banned on some station since one of them spoke out agst the war???Duh!!Believe me I remember the 60s and music protestors got play BECAUSE of their courage and protest--remeber Peter Paul and Mary, Edwin Starr,Crosby Stills Nash and Young,Eartha Kitt being banned from the White House for being agst the Viet Nam war and black listed --etc etc etc--now its considered un-patriotic to be a protestor.

To paraphrase a speech in Babylon 5's first episode - When it comes to Iraq I'm long past innocense and fast approaching Apathy.

Whether you agree or disagree about this war, everyone in this country has the right to his/her beliefs and to state them without fear of being killed or censored.

For me, Michael Moore put into words what I've been thinking for a long time. Was it appropriate for the show - probably not. But, I tell you what. Next election, I am going to re-register and vote. No longer am I a part of the apathetic, silent majority.

Not to dip back into this thread after bailing on it, but I should clarify that in my initial post I stated that Halliburton had the contract for post-war rehabbing - it's actually Kellogg , Brown and Root , a division of Halliburton and the contract at this time is for 1 billion dollars, not 4 as I stated. No biggy but I don't want to throw any mis-info out there.

By the way , essays , speeches and books by Ahmed Rashid are pretty informative ; particularly "Jihad ; the Rise of Militant Islam in central Asia" Ok, I'm out of the political thing

HEY GUYS: I LOVE YOU ALL...BUT THERE ARE TWO KINDS OF PEOPLE IN THE WORLD...THOSE WHO GET IT...AND THOSE WHO DON'T!!!...FROM ONE UNITED NATIONS RESOLUTION SIGNED IMMEDIATLY AFTER THE 1ST GULF WAR...PROCLAIMING THAT A CEASE FIRE...NOT TREATY...CEASE FIRE WITH IRAQ THAT GAVE THE IRAQI'S *15 DAYS* TO TOTALLY DISARM THEIR COUNTRY...OR THE CONSEQUENCES COULD BE A CESSATION TO THE CEASE FIRE (START SHOOTING AGAIN)...HAS NOW GONE ON FOR 12 YEARS... MORE TIME THAN WE SPENT FIGHTING WW1...WW2...KOREA...AND VIETNAM...*COMBINED* (AND THEY SAY WE HAD NO PATIENCE)... WITH RESOLUTIONS AD NAUSEUM...AND THE U.N. TAKING *NO* CONCRETE ACTION...ALL THE WHILE...THIS BRUTAL DICTATOR GASSES HIS CITIZENS...CONTINUES HIS BRUTAL ASSAULT AGAINST ANY KIND OF DISSENT... CONTINUES HIS QUEST FOR MORE AND BETTER WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION...THROWING U.N. INSPECTORS OUT OF HIS COUNTRY...AND EXPRESSING HIS *HATE* FOR OUR COUNTRY...LET'S SEE NOW...HATES US...HAS A PECHANT FOR THE "JOY" OF KILLING ALONG WITH HIS PSYCHO SONS...HAS WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION...HAS GIVEN HAVEN TO AL-QUEDA ASSOCIATE GROUPS TO SET UP TRAINING FACILITIES NORTH OF THE CAPITAL BAGHDAD...AND MURDERS AND STAVES INNOCENT IRAQI'S TO THE TUNE OF HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF MEN...WOMEN...AND CHILDREN!!!...IF ONE CAN SEE THE FOREST OF REALITY THROUGH THE TREES OF THEIR OWN POLITICAL PASSIONS...THEN WE ARE MAKING PROGRESS!!!...BUT THEN AGAIN...THERE ARE TWO TYPES OF PEOPLE...THOSE WHO GET IT...AND THOSE WHO DON'T...AND NEVER WILL!!!...PEACE...STU

HEY ALL: I THINK THAT KEN HAD THE BEST IDEA OF ALL...AND I'M PROCLAIMING A CESSATION OF MY CONTRIBUTIONS TO THIS PARTICULAR THREAD!!!...THANKS ALL FOR EXPRESSING YOUR THOUGHTS AND FEELINGS...I REALLY CAN'T SAY MUCH MORE TO CLARIFY MY POSITION...OTHER THAN GO BACK TO MY INITIAL PREMISE...MICHAEL MOORE IS A JERK!!!...I'M SURE THAT WE'LL ALL AGREE 95-PERCENT ON THE MUSIC!!!...STUBASS

Just my point...there's two kinds of people in this country...those with all the rights and those who don't get to exercise their rights...We can't be surprised when the hard-right politics of exclusion by Bush and the Republican Guard...ooops...makes many of us roll our eyes at his profession of how much he wants to "liberate" other countries -- when he's only liberating more guns and more tax refunds to campaign contributors at home. And rolling back the clock for women and minorities.

Michael Moore or anyone else should get a soap box and stand out on Hollywood and Vine to preach their beliefs...not on the Academy Awards. What has that got to do with being honored for a motion picture? Keep your opinions out of there. It's boring and who gives a crap. That outburst makes Michael Moore look like the jerk he is. Has anyone referred him for gastric bypass surgery?

Stu, I have no problem with what you said.... Its HOW you said it!..... ALL CAPS ! !

It makes my eyes bleed!

I have to copy and paste to a word doc just to get the full effect of your eloquence...and I do mean that sincerely.

As to the content of your last post... It was brilliant and to the point and I personally agree with you 100%.Well spoken Stu!

Someone here said that my comment comparing Saddam to Hitler was a stretch. And therein lies the rub. Some people think that he is just a wierdo bad guy. I don't. I believe that his torture and mass murder tactics are every bit as bad as Mr H. Saddam is the total embodiment of evil.

This isn't about oil! (Yet.. but stay tuned as there is ALWAYS someone waiting to exploit a situation)

I just have a simple question about free speech. Why is ok for the Dixie Chics to say what they want and then it is wrong for people to say what they want about the DC's. I believe that everyone, I mean even those flag burners, has a right to say what they want. I know that I seem narrow minded to a lot of people, but I am simple, so why is it wrong for people to ask to boycott the DC's concert. Don't they have the right to free speech. Just a question.

Bassn: Very good question regarding the Dixie Chicks. Probably the reason why some people feel it's wrong to call a boycott of their recordings is because those who are calling for the boycott are people who feel that our President's actions should never be questioned and that US citizens should stand by our country - wrong or right. Also to those who disagree with boycotts feel that a boycott equals censorship - another hot issue we Americans rally against. Finally, Country music has a large conservative listership which includes members of the Bush family - another hot point with those who are against a boycott of the Dixie Chicks.

I feel that everyone should have the right to express themselves and the right to disagree and even boycott. That's what makes our country the USA.