Yes and no. The Locker injury sucks and we've lost some close games. But I hope we don't give him the benefit of the doubt. A LOT is his fault and he's had 3 chances, likely never getting us into the playoffs. Good riddance, I hope.

If you read my post and "poor Munch" is what you got out of it, maybe you should stick to coloring books.

"These guys are not doing as we wanted" and Webster signed them, ultimately you can't blame munch for that because he isn't in charge of signing these under performing players. That sounds like Munch is at a disadvantage to me....poor munch.

I dont mind discussing but dont cherry pick my posts to try to make a point.

I don't know what you mean concerning cherry picking, you posted it, I'm commenting on it.

But hey, if you are happy with our center (the one who is benched), and our two guards production this year... more power to you. Personally, I hope they get a LOT better.

This is the whole premise of my argument, I'm saying that if these players are under a competent coaching staff, maybe they would not be under performing to this level. It's one thing if a player here or there is making a mistake, but when you see poor play across the board, there may be something else going on beyond the player letting us down.

BTW, who chose to start "the one who is benched"? All I heard the entire offseason was that Munch wanted him in there and not Velasco because he liked Turner's "nastiness."

I'm not happy with the players across the board under performing, however I don't think the reason they're under performing is because we simply chose the wrong guys. Like I said, under an able coaching staff, I don't believe there would be widespread under performance.

If you are in the "you cant question any moves Webster makes" camp... enjoy it.

Talk about reading comprehension. Show me where that was said....

Of course there are instances where he, in fact, misses on a player. Again, when you complain about poor play from the majority of the players that we brought in, you seem (to me anyways) to read that as us choosing the wrong guys. I believe that to be a signaling originating from a much larger problem going on. I do not believe Webster and Munch brought in roughly 30 new players and missed on 25 of them.

Our number one problem going into this off season was the offensive line and rebuilding it. So far that has failed. I blame that on the players, the coaches, and the person who drafted/paid them. And Ill throw in our scouting staff as well.

You can blame it on whomever you want, however the blame does not fall on everyone equally. You simply cannot divide the blame in equal parts, especially if the entire team is not playing well, the majority of that blame is on the coaching staff. And the majority of the blame within the coaching staff falls on the HC.

Your reading comprehension sucks.

Did you not see the 3 times I mentioned moving on from Munch in the same exact post you quoted?

Like I said cheery picking.

Did you see in my post where I told you that you didn't want to move on from Munch?

Im going to tell you this one more time, because apparently you missed it the first time around.

I think we need more talent on this roster and until we get it, we will never be where we want to be, regardless of who our coach is. Our talent level concerns me. Potential be damned, we need to see it on the field.

Sure, I'd like to see more talent at spots as well, but I think they did an admirable job with the guys they brought in. Munch was absolutely raving over Levitre, Warmack, Walker, Pollard, etc. And rightfully so, they're talented players. They had a plan to sign these guys and they executed it, it hasn't translated on the field yet, but you know why I don't think it's panned out on the field. I think we can be a hell of a lot better with the players we have now. Specifically concerning making the playoffs, I think there was enough talent there to make the playoffs.

Absolving players for horrible play. Just what we need more of. Those fumbles, drops... yep... all on Munch. Maybe we can hold onto Britt, with a new coach he may be awesome!!! Lets keep paying 10 million a year for CJ, all he needs is a better coach. While we are at it, can we bring in a new coach so that Warmack will not get out muscled so often too?

What are we going to do, keep cutting players incurring 75% roster turnover every year? Should that not tell you there's something wrong on a larger scale. The league isn't designed to continuously cut and replace players when they get "out muscled".

When it's become a theme for three years, I look at the HC as bearing the most responsibility for the team playing poorly. After firing and hiring numerous coaches, moving on from players and making attempt after attempt to add high priced free agents and high draft picks, we still see across the board poor play. That's when I look at the constant, when everything else has changed drastically in an attempt to improve, there's one constant here. He's not shown the ability to form an identity, form and implement an affective system, and make adjustments during games. He's had three years, and we are still talking about missing an identity, that's his responsibility.

Perhaps, probably, whatever. Its simple to see what the problem is imo. We need more talent, and coaches who can get more out of the talent we do have.

Agreed

I dont see what the problem is with holding players accountable for their play. But according to you, we brought all the right players in so I understand why you can only see coaching as the problem.

Doesnt mean you are right though.

There's nothing wrong with holding players accountable, but that's not my job, that's the job of the HC. Like I said earlier, I'm of the opinion that we've brought a lot of talent aboard this off season. Most of those free agents did well with their previous team, that's why we signed them.

I don't care who's right or wrong. I want to win, and if Munch wins, he's done his job.....he hasn't done that. They added players to this team like never before, he had a big hand in acquiring them, he seemed very happy with the new guys. He talked about how the team executed it's plan to perfection during the off season. I'm of the opinion that there are no more excuses for him.

That was the consensus before the season began and rightfully so. I assumed everyone, including the owner, understood that the team on occasion would incur dropped passes and fumbles (every team does).

I do not believe Webster and Munch brought in roughly 30 new players and missed on 25 of them either.In my opinion i think most of the problems on this team are related to the coaching staff.First Munchak should've never let Lowery go and thats why special teams is not working as well as it did in years past.Also Reynaud should've been let go way earlier than when he actually was cut due to miscues that kept happening in the return game.

There are several besides Kaczor we also have Parlavecchio wasn't this guy a part of the special teams coaching before he went to linebackers? Jerry Gray has also been underwhelming and of course we can't forget Lowgains running the offense or Bruce Matthews who hasn't done nothing with the offensive line.The only ones i'd keep out of the whole staff would be Jefferson,Croom,Williams.

I do not believe Webster and Munch brought in roughly 30 new players and missed on 25 of them either.In my opinion i think most of the problems on this team are related to the coaching staff.First Munchak should've never let Lowery go and thats why special teams is not working as well as it did in years past.Also Reynaud should've been let go way earlier than when he actually was cut due to miscues that kept happening in the return game.

There are several besides Kaczor we also have Parlavecchio wasn't this guy a part of the special teams coaching before he went to linebackers? Jerry Gray has also been underwhelming and of course we can't forget Lowgains running the offense or Bruce Matthews who hasn't done nothing with the offensive line.The only ones i'd keep out of the whole staff would be Jefferson,Croom,Williams.

I don't know what you mean concerning cherry picking, you posted it, I'm commenting on it.

What I originally meant was that you took what I said, and seemed to make it sound like I was saying "poor munch"

It really doesnt matter. On to the rest

This is the whole premise of my argument, I'm saying that if these players are under a competent coaching staff, maybe they would not be under performing to this level. It's one thing if a player here or there is making a mistake, but when you see poor play across the board, there may be something else going on beyond the player letting us down.

BTW, who chose to start "the one who is benched"? All I heard the entire offseason was that Munch wanted him in there and not Velasco because he liked Turner's "nastiness."

I'm not happy with the players across the board under performing, however I don't think the reason they're under performing is because we simply chose the wrong guys. Like I said, under an able coaching staff, I don't believe there would be widespread under performance. [/

Of course there are instances where he, in fact, misses on a player. Again, when you complain about poor play from the majority of the players that we brought in, you seem (to me anyways) to read that as us choosing the wrong guys. I believe that to be a signaling originating from a much larger problem going on. I do not believe Webster and Munch brought in roughly 30 new players and missed on 25 of them.

My MAIN issue is the offensive line. I believe the defense is playing a hell of a lot better than last season, even though they should be doing better. I blame Gray and Williams for that. The only blame I, personally, can put on Munch is the fact that he hired them.

That being said.... its very difficult for me to believe that two hall of fame linemen, produce such a crap line. Who knows...maybe that is the problem and I am completely ignorant here... but its damn near impossible for me to believe that 2 HOF linemen, dont know what they are doing when it comes to the line.

This would be a completely different team... even with the QB situation, if our offensive line lived up to 80% of its hype coming in.

Talk about reading comprehension. Show me where that was said....

I comprehended, I just put words in your mouth that time.

Sure, I'd like to see more talent at spots as well, but I think they did an admirable job with the guys they brought in.

I actually agree with this 100 percent, and defended the entire organization for their efforts in another post. Every time I think of the fail... it always comes back to the offensive line.

I don't care who's right or wrong. I want to win

In the end, this is the same thing I want. We just differ on why we believe its not happening.

That was the consensus before the season began and rightfully so. I assumed everyone, including the owner, understood that the team on occasion would incur dropped passes and fumbles (every team does).

Although I agree with this, you cannot drop passes in the end zone, and give up plays on special teams like we have, and be a winning team. There have been some growing pains, with both Munch and Loggains... but..

Okay its late and my memory is worse than usual right now.

I think we can all agree on a few games... KC, Seattle, and Houston are all games we should have won. A dropped pass here, Reynaud going retarded there, ect. In the Jags game, that was a turnover loss. You cant turn the ball over (what was it.. 4 times?? Maybe 5??) and win a game. Its rare that it happens. (I still need to watch the Indy game, I only caught the first 2 TD's and went to take care of prior arrangements.

I dont think coaching issues made Britt drop an easy end zone catch, I dont think its a coaching problem that Reynaud became Reytard (although here, he could have been pulled earlier.. he did fix that problem, but a little late. Not only that, look at what has happened with others.... maybe the coach/staff knew there wasnt much better on the team... but thats beside the point) I dont think coaching was there when a ref made a retarded call against a scrambling QB. I dont blame Loggains for running CJ up the middle, because CJ is the one who kept bouncing it inside. I dont blame the coaching for Battle completely missing a winning TD because he has no vision. (and he has played very little since then too) In each and every one fo those cases, Munch has done something about it, except the CJ fumbles.

The reason why I have not joined the "I hate Munch" bandwagon, is because the coaches had us in position to win each and every one of those games. If INDIVIDUALS do their job, and they make the catch/not fumble/not give up free points because of special teams..... then we are 7-3 and people on this board are talking about Munch in a completely different way.

Sure, we (hopefully) can find a better coach. However when I watch these games, I feel like it is the players letting me down, and not the coaching (even though that could improve)

What I originally meant was that you took what I said, and seemed to make it sound like I was saying "poor munch"

It really doesnt matter. On to the rest

My MAIN issue is the offensive line. I believe the defense is playing a hell of a lot better than last season, even though they should be doing better. I blame Gray and Williams for that. The only blame I, personally, can put on Munch is the fact that he hired them.

That being said.... its very difficult for me to believe that two hall of fame linemen, produce such a crap line. Who knows...maybe that is the problem and I am completely ignorant here... but its damn near impossible for me to believe that 2 HOF linemen, dont know what they are doing when it comes to the line.

This would be a completely different team... even with the QB situation, if our offensive line lived up to 80% of its hype coming in.

I comprehended, I just put words in your mouth that time.

I actually agree with this 100 percent, and defended the entire organization for their efforts in another post. Every time I think of the fail... it always comes back to the offensive line.

In the end, this is the same thing I want. We just differ on why we believe its not happening.

Although I agree with this, you cannot drop passes in the end zone, and give up plays on special teams like we have, and be a winning team. There have been some growing pains, with both Munch and Loggains... but..

Okay its late and my memory is worse than usual right now.

I think we can all agree on a few games... KC, Seattle, and Houston are all games we should have won. A dropped pass here, Reynaud going retarded there, ect. In the Jags game, that was a turnover loss. You cant turn the ball over (what was it.. 4 times?? Maybe 5??) and win a game. Its rare that it happens. (I still need to watch the Indy game, I only caught the first 2 TD's and went to take care of prior arrangements.

I dont think coaching issues made Britt drop an easy end zone catch, I dont think its a coaching problem that Reynaud became Reytard (although here, he could have been pulled earlier.. he did fix that problem, but a little late. Not only that, look at what has happened with others.... maybe the coach/staff knew there wasnt much better on the team... but thats beside the point) I dont think coaching was there when a ref made a retarded call against a scrambling QB. I dont blame Loggains for running CJ up the middle, because CJ is the one who kept bouncing it inside. I dont blame the coaching for Battle completely missing a winning TD because he has no vision. (and he has played very little since then too) In each and every one fo those cases, Munch has done something about it, except the CJ fumbles.

The reason why I have not joined the "I hate Munch" bandwagon, is because the coaches had us in position to win each and every one of those games. If INDIVIDUALS do their job, and they make the catch/not fumble/not give up free points because of special teams..... then we are 7-3 and people on this board are talking about Munch in a completely different way.

Sure, we (hopefully) can find a better coach. However when I watch these games, I feel like it is the players letting me down, and not the coaching (even though that could improve)

I agree with most of what you are saying; and yes it is ultimately the players who are letting us down. Have you noticed that sucessful NFL coaches have players that are "all in." It's that idenity and attitude that a head coach must instill in his players and coaches that makes the difference. Players who perform half a$$ on the field are just reflecting the culture and values of their team. The fact that they are allowed to do it is my problem. It's a symptom that we have watched for three years. We heard players on our team calling out our half a$$ players . . . why isn't the coach doing it ?

I feel our first "identity" died when we realized that Palmer was not going to force a young QB into a complicated offensive system.

Then Munch wanted us to be a power running team.... with a revamped line and a power back to compliment CJ.

Then the line sucked, CJ sucked, and Green sucked. cant have an identity when you dont have the pieces.

A hammer won't build a house for you, but you need one to build a house. Our coaches are suppose to take the players they get and work them into their schemes to execute on the field. We the other team is beating us on the field the coaches are suppose to make adjustments and modify their plans and schemes to overcome the other team. It is a game long process.

When you spend three quarters trying to run it up the middle and failing, it is dumb to try to run it up the middle in the fourth quarter. When the plan isn't working you have to be able to adapt and change as the games requires. If you don't, like the Titans, your players will feel frustrated and will loose interest as they continue to fail. If the players don't believe in the plan and scheme they will give you a half a$$ effort.

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