I look at the top defenses in the league, we have players that match up with their talent.
But we are missing that Stud and a good DC...lol

I think the scheme could be so much better. We don't use Ayers enough blitzing. He was in Luck's face that 2nd half when rushing...

I think every game he lines up at DE he gets a sack. Might just be my imagination but everytime I've noticed him at DE rushing, he ends the game with a sack...

Bottom line i think we need more Dlineman. We are stocked at DT with Martin, Marks Casey, Clayton and Klug. The last two are replaceable. But at DE we basically have Morgan and Wimbley. We could use another guy there before DT.

But you don't pass on a guy like Lotulelei. We have basically 1 starter at DT(Casey) and a bunch of rotation guys.

I'll say Star would be the exception. He seems to be a ....well.. "Star" lol

Everyone else from what I've seen so far, and I haven't looked hard, seems to be the standard top rated DT that could end up being just another guy in the NFL...._________________Proud member of the DARK SIDE. I've embraced Mike Murlarkey as my Head Coach.

I look at the top defenses in the league, we have players that match up with their talent.
But we are missing that Stud and a good DC...lol

I think the scheme could be so much better. We don't use Ayers enough blitzing. He was in Luck's face that 2nd half when rushing...

I think every game he lines up at DE he gets a sack. Might just be my imagination but everytime I've noticed him at DE rushing, he ends the game with a sack...

Bottom line i think we need more Dlineman. We are stocked at DT with Martin, Marks Casey, Clayton and Klug. The last two are replaceable. But at DE we basically have Morgan and Wimbley. We could use another guy there before DT.

But you don't pass on a guy like Lotulelei. We have basically 1 starter at DT(Casey) and a bunch of rotation guys.

I'll say Star would be the exception. He seems to be a ....well.. "Star" lol

Everyone else from what I've seen so far, and I haven't looked hard, seems to be the standard top rated DT that could end up being just another guy in the NFL....

I still think it's ridiculous this is even a debate- there are certain positions in the NFL where having more talent is always worth it.
WR is one of those positions- and, as I pointed out (and was subsequently ignored by the people saying we should go CB)- we didn't know how good Britt would be coming back from his injury. We still don't. And taking a WR to grow with our young QB is also a very, very good idea.

You know what position is equivalent on defense? Passrushers. Not corners. We have two good starters, and a wealth of young talent behind them. Mouton has one bad game where they constantly lined up Reggie Wayne, one of the best WRs over the last decade, in the slot against him, and suddenly we should draft a corner #1? That's just freaking stupid. So, so, so stupid. Let's not wait on Senabaugh, or Campbell to develop? Let's just throw Verner solely into the slot and then have him signed away in a year? He's played damn well all year, inside and out. Is he better playing the nickel spot? Well yeah, but he's also an above average outside corner. And SOMEONE WILL PAY HIM FOR THAT.

And yes, I think our zone scheme is currently bad. But it's bad because..... WE DONT HAVE A CONSISTENT PASH RUSH. BECAUSE WE HAVE TWO DEs PLAYING 90 % OF OUR SNAPS. Morgan and Wimbley both played very well yesterday, but did we have any rush going by the 4th quarter? No, because they were bone tired and couldn't explode off the ball anymore. Unless we fire Gray, we're staying with the zone scheme. So if you want that scheme to be successful, you need a consistent, strong pass rush, and a stud MLB. We have that MLB when McCarthy is healthy, but no depth behind him. We have a good, and improving, pass rush, but no depth, no rotation, and thus we suffer heavily in the 4th. Every damn game this year, our defense falls off dramatically late in the game.

Oh, and PS- McCourty and Verner looked fantastic when we went bump and run against the Lions. So did Mouton (he's huge, physical, and fast). McCourty and Verner are both very physical corners, but neither have top end speed. A pure man coverage system would see them drop off, but bump and run works really well for them.

And no, CB does not look like it will be BPA. This year's class of DE doesn't have a standout #1 like in years past, but it has at least 5, if not up to 8, 1st round prospects. We'll be drafting around 10-20, it appears, and I think there will be 4 players in that range that are better prospects than Morgan when we drafted him. Werner looks amazing, both DEs from Alabama look amazing, Okeafor looks amazing. Jarvis Jones and the Mingo from Ala will be drafted by 3-4 teams, but there are another 4 1st round 4-3 DEs available.

I would take Montgomery, Werner, Okeafor, and Damontre Moore before I would take Milner. Milner may be a great prospect, but it just isn't even close to a need. It's the exact opposite of a need. I would also take Chance Warmack and Barrett Jones before Milner. And Star Loutoei.

If all of those guys are off the board? Then sure, take Dee Milner. But he is not such a better prospect than any of those guys so far that we should consider taking him over them. All of these guys fill a much bigger need for our team than Milner, and all of them are close enough to Milner as prospects that the need is way more important.

Please explain to me why we need Jarvis Jones. I could understand if we played a 3-4 but we dont. Jones would get manhandled if he played DE for us. Ayers is one of our best defensive players(not saying much but still) and we're not replacing him. So where does Jones play? He's not playing WLB because he'd bet manhandled in coverage. My order would be.......

Cuz i think he would instantly be our best pass rusher at DE and plus we have been playing 3-4 some and i think in the future that is what we will be, plus he has most talent and i myself do not think he gets manhandled AT ALL and Ayers isnt that great at tackling, i love him but i think we are biased about all our defensive players, none of them are pro bowl level, McCarthy is our best player and i believe Jones would instantly be our best by far, thats my explanation for you_________________

Non of are defense tackles are playing like crap casey gets pushed around same with every other one we have. Casey would be a great complement to a guy like star. I see defensive tackle as a bigger need than defensive end when teams like the colts can pound the ball up the middle you know you have a problem. We can sign a good back up defensive end free agent. The fact is are defensive tackles now cant control ylthere gaps we need a guy that will demand double teams on every play freeing up casey klug wimbley Morgan and martin look how good tony brown looked when he was playing next to Haynesworth compared to when he wasn't. Plus it would free up are linebackers to make more plays. I just want a guy who can collapse the pocket and can dominant against the run and who is nearly unblockable one on one is that to much to ask for?

I don't get the need for a 1st round DE. You admit that our starters are legit starters, that we only need depth so they can get rest, yet we have to spend our first round pick in order to get that. Wimbley and Morgan are both young pass rushers we aren't going to be drafting their replacements just yet.

I am in agreeance with everyone that we desperately need depth at DE. I just don't believe it needs to be found in the first round. Pass rush specialists can be found easily in the 3rd-5th rounds and I think we should be taking at least two DEs out of those two rounds.

Ryan Mouton is NOT a suitable corner. He is not starting caliber talent in the NFL and never has been. Doesn't matter what he did against Reggie Wayne, he has been terrible in every game this season. The Colts just found a way to magnify it in 3 WR sets on third down. In the NFL today your nickelback should be considered a starter with as many snaps as theyre going to be playing in a single game.

If Sensabaugh cannot beat out Ryan Mouton as the nickelback then I don't know why I'm supposed to have high hopes for him. The only corner in the league that couldn't beat Mouton for a spot just so happened to be on the Colts. Campbell is a great athletic talent, but if he was capable of being a starting outside corner they would have used him as such this year as they said they were going to in the offseason and preseason.

If someone comes in and replaces Mouton and plays well, then great. But, I've watched Mouton consistently be a bad player since his rookie season. Whether it was fumbling punts on special teams or basically gift wrapping first downs for the oppositions offense.

A lot of people on this forum like to believe that the people we take in the later rounds have high promise because the coaches talk so highly of them, but they never make it on the field. So they have high hopes for them next season. But what ever happens to them? It's always the same thing._________________Jason McCourty
Wesley Woodyard

Wimbley and Morgan have both been good, and are getting better as the season goes on. I'm in agreement with TitanSS, while we need depth, I wouldn't use a first round pick on a DE, barring there being some kind of once in a lifetime prospect there. At this point I'd rather stick with Wimbley and Morgan, maybe bring in someone like Israel Idonije from free agency or draft a DE in the 3rd or 4th round.

Right now, my biggest needs would be:

1. Safety
2. Guard
3. Center(though this could go away if Velasco continues to peform at the level he's been at the past 4 or 5 weeks)
4. CB

it's such a weird season because it seems as though we have so much talent everywhere on our defense and yet we are the worst defense that this city has ever seen. I think we for sure need a safety. No question. Period. After that however, it gets a bit confusing. I just think we need talent on our defense. I think in the top 10 we can get that. I hesitate to say pick an O-lineman that early because when you are there you have to go with a game changer. But personally I think the thing we need the most is to fire Gray and start over with someone that understands NFL offenses a little bit better. There is too much talent for this team to be this historically bad and i'm convinced there is someone out there that can harness Casey, McCarthy, Verner and McCourty, Wimbley, Morgan, etc._________________

Hmmm.
Well for one, Defensive Ends are not meant to be every down players- they should rotate. #2 Corners are every down players- putting someone ahead of Verner means Verner only sees the field in nickel packages. #3. Defensive Ends, when rotating, play better during their time on the field, since they actually get time to rest. #4. Team after team has proven that extra passrushers is never a bad idea (See Denver, Giants, San Fran, Philly, Seattle, Houston, etc. etc.) #5. Even a rotational depth player can make a huge impact at DE (Shea McClellan in Chicago, whoever the heck San Fran took last year that had 15 sacks). #6. Corners do not work the same way. You get a new guy, someone sits on the bench.

Next- Are you freaking high? You expect a 4th round rookie to come in and beat out a 4th year player for our nickel spot? Mouton had one terrible game against a hall of fame WR. Did Cortland Finnegan start his first year? Samari Rolle? Sure, some corners started their first year, usually because they were 1st round picks on a team with no corners. Mouton is a very solid 3rd corner, and you're high as heck if you think he's "terrible and not NFL caliber".

And once again, we play a ZONE scheme. A PASSRUSHER will help our ZONE SCHEME far more than a 1st round CORNER. Mouton is also playing a ZONE SCHEME. He gets an area. He tries to defend that area, and makes sure that if someone catches it near that area, he tackles them.

Finally, this is just stupid. Verner has fantastic metrics at any website you go to, and made the PFW mid-season ALL PRO team. Just because he'd be "better" in the slot doesn't mean he's not excellent on the outside. He'd be the best nickelback in the league if all he played was nickelback. But he's still playing like a top 15 CB.

Finally, if anyone is suited to be a rotational player on our Dline, it's Wimbley. Having a 1st round pick that can essentially split time with Wimbley would do wonders (because Wimbley is bad against the run, and would be far fresher on rushing downs).

Also, take into account our offense. With Hass back there, we're doing a lot better in TOP because we focus on setting up the run and short passes. But a big play offense will essentially always have a lower TOP, and thus, having fresh legs on the Dline is way more important. Look at Manning with the Colts- against any playoff caliber team, they would still likely win, but their TOP would be bad.

CBs have to run a lot, but they don't need to be explosive- that's aerobic conditioning. Defensive line players need to be explosive- that's a function of muscle fatigue. A skewed TOP really hurts Dline players- which is what we should have when Locker comes back, since the focus will be far more about big plays downfield and big runs coming from spreading the defense out.

Finally- are you freaking serious about "let's give up on sensabaugh, since as a rookie he couldn't beat Mouton out for the job?" Sensabaugh is raw, and athletic. He didn't play for the highest level of team in college. But then again, neither did Finnegan. Or Cary Williams, (a 7th round pick of ours who we somehow let get away and is now starting for the Ravens, and keeping Jimmy Smith, a 1st rounder, on the bench). Or Verner, for that matter. Not to mention, AGAIN, we play ZONE. You can toss high pick corners into man, since they don't have to do anything but play corner. But in a zone scheme, you have to know your responsibilities and areas on a whole wide range of scheme and playcalls. There's a much sharper mental curve.

So yeah, I'm out of this thread. A 1st round CB would be a gigantic waste considering our #2 is already one of the best #2s in the NFL, and we've got reams of young talent developing. Defensive End is a clear weakness, having a 3rd high level end is never a waste, and in a zone scheme with a fast scoring offense, fresh legs and rotation are incredibly important. Plus, safety and linebacker depth are also way more of a problem for us too. It's just dumb to think spending a 1st rounder on a CB makes any sense given our defense. It is literally our deepest and best position.

Hmmm.
Well for one, Defensive Ends are not meant to be every down players- they should rotate. #2 Corners are every down players- putting someone ahead of Verner means Verner only sees the field in nickel packages. #3. Defensive Ends, when rotating, play better during their time on the field, since they actually get time to rest. #4. Team after team has proven that extra passrushers is never a bad idea (See Denver, Giants, San Fran, Philly, Seattle, Houston, etc. etc.) #5. Even a rotational depth player can make a huge impact at DE (Shea McClellan in Chicago, whoever the heck San Fran took last year that had 15 sacks). #6. Corners do not work the same way. You get a new guy, someone sits on the bench.

Next- Are you freaking high? You expect a 4th round rookie to come in and beat out a 4th year player for our nickel spot? Mouton had one terrible game against a hall of fame WR. Did Cortland Finnegan start his first year? Samari Rolle? Sure, some corners started their first year, usually because they were 1st round picks on a team with no corners. Mouton is a very solid 3rd corner, and you're high as heck if you think he's "terrible and not NFL caliber".

And once again, we play a ZONE scheme. A PASSRUSHER will help our ZONE SCHEME far more than a 1st round CORNER. Mouton is also playing a ZONE SCHEME. He gets an area. He tries to defend that area, and makes sure that if someone catches it near that area, he tackles them.

Finally, this is just stupid. Verner has fantastic metrics at any website you go to, and made the PFW mid-season ALL PRO team. Just because he'd be "better" in the slot doesn't mean he's not excellent on the outside. He'd be the best nickelback in the league if all he played was nickelback. But he's still playing like a top 15 CB.

Finally, if anyone is suited to be a rotational player on our Dline, it's Wimbley. Having a 1st round pick that can essentially split time with Wimbley would do wonders (because Wimbley is bad against the run, and would be far fresher on rushing downs).

Also, take into account our offense. With Hass back there, we're doing a lot better in TOP because we focus on setting up the run and short passes. But a big play offense will essentially always have a lower TOP, and thus, having fresh legs on the Dline is way more important. Look at Manning with the Colts- against any playoff caliber team, they would still likely win, but their TOP would be bad.

CBs have to run a lot, but they don't need to be explosive- that's aerobic conditioning. Defensive line players need to be explosive- that's a function of muscle fatigue. A skewed TOP really hurts Dline players- which is what we should have when Locker comes back, since the focus will be far more about big plays downfield and big runs coming from spreading the defense out.

Finally- are you freaking serious about "let's give up on sensabaugh, since as a rookie he couldn't beat Mouton out for the job?" Sensabaugh is raw, and athletic. He didn't play for the highest level of team in college. But then again, neither did Finnegan. Or Cary Williams, (a 7th round pick of ours who we somehow let get away and is now starting for the Ravens, and keeping Jimmy Smith, a 1st rounder, on the bench). Or Verner, for that matter. Not to mention, AGAIN, we play ZONE. You can toss high pick corners into man, since they don't have to do anything but play corner. But in a zone scheme, you have to know your responsibilities and areas on a whole wide range of scheme and playcalls. There's a much sharper mental curve.

So yeah, I'm out of this thread. A 1st round CB would be a gigantic waste considering our #2 is already one of the best #2s in the NFL, and we've got reams of young talent developing. Defensive End is a clear weakness, having a 3rd high level end is never a waste, and in a zone scheme with a fast scoring offense, fresh legs and rotation are incredibly important. Plus, safety and linebacker depth are also way more of a problem for us too. It's just dumb to think spending a 1st rounder on a CB makes any sense given our defense. It is literally our deepest and best position.

You were out of the conversation the moment you said you thought Ryan Mouton was a good corner. I've watched him play since his rookie season. Was happy when he was injured and couldn't play an entire season, although I would never wish injury on anyone. And I've seen him be consistently terrible in every game he's been in this season. Not only against Reggie Wayne. Wayne just exploited it and basically pointed it out to everyone, but he has been that bad all year.

Don't get me wrong, he is great from a tackling standpoint. But he has to be our worst coverage corner on the team, including the rook.

Never said I gave up on rookies 8 games into their first season, just don't hold high as high of hopes for mid and late round draft choices as others here do. We have a rookie defensive end on our team in Scott Solomon who has yet to see the field. Have you given up on him? It's the same thing except he hasn't been as over-hyped as guys like Campbell who everyone on this bored pulls an Al Davis and gets hard for him because he's tall and he's fast.

Just because Verner would play inside in nickel packages doesn't mean he has to come off of the field in base formations. We need to play more 3-3-5 anyway. With 3 wide receiver sets commonly used and most teams attacking through the air I look to see 3 corners on the field a lot more commonly throughout the next 5 years. The NFL is ever changing, why not be one of the first ones to make the change for once?

You don't draft depth in the first round. Period. Situational pass rushers are found throughout the entire draft. And I very much agree with you that we need at least two more as depth behind our starters.

Contrary to what everyone seems to believe our pass rush has been there all season. But, we play in a [inappropriate/removed] zone coverage scheme in which quartbacks don't have to wait anywhere close to 4 seconds to get rid of the ball. But again you are right, our pass rush does tend to fade late into the game, which is where our mid round draft picks spent on pass rushers come into play._________________Jason McCourty
Wesley Woodyard

Last edited by TitanSS on Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:22 pm; edited 2 times in total

And you used the Giants as an example, who have drafted two corners in the first round since 2007, and a second rounder in 2005. They have 3 DEs that you can probably name and the only reason they look so good is because they have people who can actually cover behind them.

But no need to take it personal. You have your opinions and I have mine. Agree to disagree._________________Jason McCourty
Wesley Woodyard

I think it's become painfully clear that we don't have a dominant prescense in the middle. Casey is stout against the run, and Marks and Martin look to provide decent/good rotation depth... a pocket collapser up the middle is desperately needed.

Morgan and Wimbley have been pretty dominant at times... but the stats don't show that. When getting pressure from our ends, all opposing QBs have to do is step up in the pocket since the interior is getting no push whatsoever. If there was that collapse or even indentation up the middle, Wimbley and Morgan's sack numbers would be higher... and turnovers could possibly be higher as well if QB's weren't able to step into their throws on every attempt.

Its clear to me now that a penetrating UT is priority #1... and its not even close.

I think it's become painfully clear that we don't have a dominant prescense in the middle. Casey is stout against the run, and Marks and Martin look to provide decent/good rotation depth... a pocket collapser up the middle is desperately needed.

Morgan and Wimbley have been pretty dominant at times... but the stats don't show that. When getting pressure from our ends, all opposing QBs have to do is step up in the pocket since the interior is getting no push whatsoever. If there was that collapse or even indentation up the middle, Wimbley and Morgan's sack numbers would be higher... and turnovers could possibly be higher as well if QB's weren't able to step into their throws on every attempt.

Its clear to me now that a penetrating UT is priority #1... and its not even close.

I noticed this in the Pittsburgh game. We would have brought Roethlisberger down numerous times had the middle of our line collapsed the pocket.

Star is supposed to be this type of player, but I have yet to watch one of his games. If he isn't there are the other DTs worthy of the pick? If yes then I'm on board._________________Jason McCourty
Wesley Woodyard

I think it's become painfully clear that we don't have a dominant prescense in the middle. Casey is stout against the run, and Marks and Martin look to provide decent/good rotation depth... a pocket collapser up the middle is desperately needed.

Morgan and Wimbley have been pretty dominant at times... but the stats don't show that. When getting pressure from our ends, all opposing QBs have to do is step up in the pocket since the interior is getting no push whatsoever. If there was that collapse or even indentation up the middle, Wimbley and Morgan's sack numbers would be higher... and turnovers could possibly be higher as well if QB's weren't able to step into their throws on every attempt.

Its clear to me now that a penetrating UT is priority #1... and its not even close.

I noticed this in the Pittsburgh game. We would have brought Roethlisberger down numerous times had the middle of our line collapsed the pocket.

Star is supposed to be this type of player, but I have yet to watch one of his games. If he isn't there are the other DTs worthy of the pick? If yes then I'm on board.

I think there are some other DTs, but they are most likely Mid/Late 1st, 2nd quality. I think Star is the only blue chipper.._________________Proud member of the DARK SIDE. I've embraced Mike Murlarkey as my Head Coach.