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Dear members,

In order to show respect towards someones wishes, regarding if they want to get surprised by the issue of the manga, that wasn't showed yet in the anime series, please place the proper "Spoiler" prefix on your thread, whenever you create one that contains any spoilers. If you do decide to post any spoiler at all, while creating the thread, in the drop-down box before the thread title, again, please make sure you selected "Spoiler" as the thread prefix.

Jiraiya was surprised someone beat him one on one, but all that tells us is that Hanzo was strong (which nobody is disputing), and he's surprised some guy he never heard of could beat him (especially with all the security precautions he took). It doesn't tell us much by itself. Since then, we've gotten alot more clarification on how strong Hanzo actually was, and it turns out he wasn't that great.

The idea he can beat Oro is literally laughable, ditto the other Sannin, and the only reason I don't mock the idea he can beat HirUzen is because he didn't see enough of him to be sure. I'd be inclined to take all 4 over him very clearly. What will Hanzo do when Oro summons the first 2 Hokage to kill him? Heck, apparently all Oro has to do is lock blades with him, after which he'll be helpless against Oro's non-seal based jutsu. So far all of the Sannin's summons look more impressive than Hanzo's does.

Those edos are some sh*t, idk if it was orochimaru or what
And i am a hashi and tobirama fan, but still it would be a good fight

Pretty sure from that hype hanzo could take the rest, jiraya knew he had SM but still thinks he is inferior and how do you know those dead body's were on the sannins side

We have no idea if those bodies were Hanzo's men or leaf men. And going off the manga (which is the only thing that counts really), we don't have enough info to give Hanzo much cred. All we really do know about that battle is that he fought 3 teen Sannin and lived. 3 Sannin who were nowhere near as strong as they'd later be.

That isn't especially impressive by itself, and it's alot less when we put it into context. Like the new info we got about Hanzo as the manga went on... how he lost to frickin Mifune for instance, and is unable to use ninjutsu without seals (wtf?!)

There's no evidence to support your opinion though. Which makes me disregard it. Just like I disregard people who argue some no name ninja we never heard of was stronger than Itachi... maybe he was, but I'll want some pretty good evidence before I buy it. You have none.

There's no evidence to support your opinion though. Which makes me disregard it. Just like I disregard people who argue some no name ninja we never heard of was stronger than Itachi... maybe he was, but I'll want some pretty good evidence before I buy it. You have none.

Bahahahahahaa!!!! Your entire thread is based off of your own assumptions on the situation and personal opinions on the measure of various ninja/samuri's strength.

Don't act like it's "evidence"

That said, I agree he is overrated by a lot of folks. But I also think you're underrating him. But again, it's up to opinion, so I'll respect yours if you can conjure the willpower to respect mine.

Why is it that people believe they are entitled to respect? You earn respect, it's not given automatically. Your opinion is not based on a reasonable analysis of the evidence, so it's uninformed and illogical... of course I don't respect it. Should I respect people who believe in the Santa too?

Why is it that people believe they are entitled to respect? You earn respect, it's not given automatically. Your opinion is not based on a reasonable analysis of the evidence, so it's uninformed and illogical... of course I don't respect it. Should I respect people who believe in the Santa too?

My opinion is just as valid as yours, you're just too ignorant to see it. Stop being so self-righteous.

I have noticed an alarming number of errors on this board, and I'm going to start trying to eliminate them so that people stop citing them as evidence for their theories.

The 3rd of these is that Hanzo of the Salamander was some amazingly awesome Shinobi. He wasn't.

Hanzo was a good ninja, no doubt there. And he had a great rep. But the more we've seen of him, the clearer it has been that he isn't anything special. The guys big claim to fame was that he fought evenly with the Sannin back when they were teenagers. This fight doesn't mean much though, because:
a) they were teenagers, who hadn't gotten nearly as strong as they would later. Tsunade didn't have her regen techniques for instance, Jiraiya doesn't seem to have Sage mode or the Rasengan (which hadn't been invented yet), Oro hadn't gone through numerous power ups from absorbing other host bodies, and adding their strength to his own, nor had he invented numerous techniques that would make him way stronger than Hanzo (like Edo Tensei). None of them seem to have had their summons available for the fight either (or were too tired to summon them). This brings me to the 2nd point,
b) We don't know the circumstances of the fight. For all we know the Sannin were exhausted from killing all Hanzo's men (see all the dead bodies visible in the fight?), and by the time Hanzo showed up they were in no condition to take him and his Salamander.

We're then left with a guy who lost to Mifune and ran away from kid Nagato, and whose name may have been "known by Shinobi all around the world", but who clearly wasn't as strong as readers of the manga first suspected he might be. There's no reason to think he could take any of the grown up Sannin individually, and dozens of other shinobi in the manga demonstrate clearly superior prowess. He's apparently useless when he isn't given time to weave signs either, meaning pretty much any decent Uchiha can own him (since they don't need their hands to use techs), just as they'd have owned Mifune when he tried to beat them with his "quick draw" sword skills. Indeed, lots of chatacters can do jutsu without seals (Rasengan, Oro's snake techs, Jiraiya's hair, etc). It's pretty embarassing really for a guy who was supposedly Kage level, but probably wasn't (unless you're comparing him to the lowest level of Kage possible, like Gaara's dad). It's also notable that he doesn't get put in the strong group, whose job is to hold off the armies advance, but is put in the crappy back-up ambush group. If Hanzo was that strong, Kabuto would have put him in the front lines with the resurrected Kage or Madara, which is where he'd be the most useful.

nah, they already had their summons diring that war, and Uncle Jiraiya had been training in sage mode since he was a kid.. (when he reverse summoned himself to myoboku.)

Did it state the Sannin were teens then?! I just honestly thoufh they were more like Kakashi's age which I feel would be closer to their actual prime.

Hanzo was a beast who effortlessly beat Mifune back when Mifune was actually young.

It was his dream of finding world peace that caused him to to into hiding....and as such he lost his inner Passion of his dream and his skills dulled. Because of this he was nowhere near his power in his prime. Also note he commited Sekkupu so that he couod be sealed.....Mifune didn't entirely win (though I'm sure he probably would have).

Hanzo was basically put up as an insanely strong shinobi....just because we never really saw him fight (and in his one fight it was a Hanzo that hadn't trained in probably several years, but was still a challenge despite that. He didn't even use any of his Jutsu really....

Also, Orochimaru didn't invent Edo Tensei which you mentioned he did (though I'm sure you simply meant he had not learned it). I am pretty sure Jiraiya was seen in the flashbacks as learning Sage Mode as a young boy. Orochimaru was even then being looked at by Hiruzen as a worthy candidate for Hokage except he lacked the whole will of fire thing (expirament issues).

Lastly why do you assume they are Amegakure Ninjas?! The text they stood behind the Sannin seems to me that they were Konoha shinobi. Also not Hanzo just fired off some Explosive tags...he didn't seem like the guy to go and butcher his own people

Did it state the Sannin were teens then?! I just honestly thoufh they were more like Kakashi's age which I feel would be closer to their actual prime.

Hanzo was a beast who effortlessly beat Mifune back when Mifune was actually young.

It was his dream of finding world peace that caused him to to into hiding....and as such he lost his inner Passion of his dream and his skills dulled. Because of this he was nowhere near his power in his prime. Also note he commited Sekkupu so that he couod be sealed.....Mifune didn't entirely win (though I'm sure he probably would have).

Hanzo was basically put up as an insanely strong shinobi....just because we never really saw him fight (and in his one fight it was a Hanzo that hadn't trained in probably several years, but was still a challenge despite that. He didn't even use any of his Jutsu really....

Also, Orochimaru didn't invent Edo Tensei which you mentioned he did (though I'm sure you simply meant he had not learned it). I am pretty sure Jiraiya was seen in the flashbacks as learning Sage Mode as a young boy. Orochimaru was even then being looked at by Hiruzen as a worthy candidate for Hokage except he lacked the whole will of fire thing (expirament issues).

Lastly why do you assume they are Amegakure Ninjas?! The text they stood behind the Sannin seems to me that they were Konoha shinobi. Also not Hanzo just fired off some Explosive tags...he didn't seem like the guy to go and butcher his own people

I guess that's just my opinion

Agreed. Thanks for explaining, I was too lazy to do so

Originally Posted by Sir Ichiraku

nah, they already had their summons diring that war, and Uncle Jiraiya had been training in sage mode since he was a kid.. (when he reverse summoned himself to myoboku.)

Also probable

And on the teenagers thing, Sasuke and Naruto are teenagers, and look where they are. Being a teen does not equal being weak. Though I agree they didn't have all their techniques at this point, but I'm sure they had a decent set.

I'll tell you what, I'll give you a chance. Explain to me how you think Hanzo would win a fight with any of those guys. Give me a play by play, or explain the sorts of techniques he would use to win. Remember, this is a guy who can be beaten by Mifune, who apparently has no way to use ninjutsu once he locks blades with someone, meaning all you've got to do is lock blades and then he's helpless.

I'll tell you what, I'll give you a chance. Explain to me how you think Hanzo would win a fight with any of those guys. Give me a play by play, or explain the sorts of techniques he would use to win. Remember, this is a guy who can be beaten by Mifune, who apparently has no way to use ninjutsu once he locks blades with someone, meaning all you've got to do is lock blades and then he's helpless.

How's about no.

Also, Mifune didn't lock blades to keep him from using seals, he just attacked relentlessly enough to keep Hanzo on his heals.

See, this is why you have no credibility. The evidence from the manga doesn't support you, and when pressed into explaining exactly how he could win, you can't tell us. Just that "you believe" he would... kind of like kids belief in Santa. I don't have to respect that, and guess what? I don't.

Hanzo didn't have time to make the seals. However most of the higher end ninja we see either have techniques they can do without seals (which is an advantage), or a way to circumvent or offset this shotcoming. Hanzo apparently has nothing except seals to attack with... seals, and a weapon. That's embarassing. Alot of Jounin I can think of would eat him for breakfast (Gai, Kakashi, etc, heck based on feats Yamato looks at least as impressive). There are literally dozens of ninja who look more impressive than this guy.

See, this is why you have no credibility. The evidence from the manga doesn't support you, and when pressed into explaining exactly how he could win, you can't tell us. Just that "you believe" he would... kind of like kids belief in Santa. I don't have to respect that, and guess what? I don't.

Hanzo didn't have time to make the seals. However most of the higher end ninja we see either have techniques they can do without seals (which is an advantage), or a way to circumvent or offset this shotcoming. Hanzo apparently has nothing except seals to attack with... seals, and a weapon. That's embarassing. Alot of Jounin I can think of would eat him for breakfast (Gai, Kakashi, etc, heck based on feats Yamato looks at least as impressive). There are literally dozens of ninja who look more impressive than this guy.

By your logic you have no credibility either since you base it all on your own assumptions.

Also, there have been plenty of other people explaining it, try reading their posts.

Anyhow, arguing with you is getting nowhere and will continue to go in circles since you accept only your own opinion. Even agreeing with you on certain points doesn't seem to help calm your antagonism.

Oh well. Good luck with the rest of your time on Narutobase. I'm done.

nah, they already had their summons diring that war, and Uncle Jiraiya had been training in sage mode since he was a kid.. (when he reverse summoned himself to myoboku.)

1) It's only the anime that supports these points. The anime isn't cannon.
2) Even if we pretend that it is cannon, it's still not very helpful. The summons do not appear fully grown in the flashback on the anime, and they did not use them against Hanzo (perhaps they didn't have enough Chakra left to do so). Lastly, while Jiraiya is shown to be training with sage energy since he was a kid in the anime, he could not achieve sage mode without the 2 elder frogs, who he did not have in this battle (for whatever reason)... remember, the sage mode in which Jiraiya becomes insanely more powerful? We don't even know if teen Jiraya could enter this state yet at all (even with help). So no, that doesn't help you much.

Originally Posted by KGB Kakuzu

Did it state the Sannin were teens then?! I just honestly thoufh they were more like Kakashi's age which I feel would be closer to their actual prime.

Well, based on the chronology and timeline, if they weren't teens, they were still a long way off their prime. Remember, Tsunade's invention of regen techniques took Oro by surprise years later, so she clearly didn't have them yet, while Oro and Jiraiya hadn't developed alot of techniques yet either, which have been noted in this thread already.

More specifically on the chronology, while I won't break it down here, this took place at least 3 years before Jiraiya returned to the village, which was back before Jiraiya had taken a teenage Minato as a student, trained him up, etc. Minato then grew up, became Hokage for at least several years, died, and then another 16-17 years passed. Remember also that the war the Sannin were in is described as having gone on for "years" even after Jiraiya's return. So without getting into all that timeline stuff, we're already talking about a period which at a bare minimum is 25-30+ years ago. That doesn't really matter though, so much as the fact that they clearly hadn't developed alot of the techniques and abilities that made them so powerful. And we don't know the circumstances of the battle (how tired were they, how much help did Hanzo get, etc).

Hanzo was a beast who effortlessly beat Mifune back when Mifune was actually young.

Nothing about the flashback suggests it was effortless. Mifune is a weak character compared to kage level characters anyway, I wouldn't be boasting about that, and certainly not when he got beaten by Mifune the next go around.

It was his dream of finding world peace that caused him to to into hiding....and as such he lost his inner Passion of his dream and his skills dulled. Because of this he was nowhere near his power in his prime. Also note he commited Sekkupu so that he couod be sealed.....Mifune didn't entirely win (though I'm sure he probably would have).

There is no indication he was "nowhere near his prime". All we get told is before he could beat Mifune (nothing to boast of), and now he can't (embarassing for any Kage level ninja). None of this establishes Hanzo as a kage level ninja.

Hanzo was basically put up as an insanely strong shinobi....just because we never really saw him fight (and in his one fight it was a Hanzo that hadn't trained in probably several years, but was still a challenge despite that. He didn't even use any of his Jutsu really....

His failure to use jutsu is a bad thing... because he wanted to use it, but apparently can't without seals. That's pretty pathetic for a kage level guy.

what makes you think they were teenagers? id say roughly minatos age upper 20's. also I believe it was stated that they were the only three that survived against hanzo so those bodies were leaf ninja all fighting hanzo at the same time with the sannin. mifune is the best samurai in the world who kept hanzo from weavit he was high kage kishi wrote it accept it man he spent decades not developing his skills and languishedng signs to use jutsu and hanzo actually resisted kabutos direct control to stab himself and allow his defeat. nagato was prime then still walking around and with a dragon statue that eats souls.

You know I would have repped you on a flawed yet well thought out thread until I started reading your convos with the commenters who debated, RESPECTFULLY, with you. Yuo haven't proven anything except that you can be a complete and utter butthole and a rude jerk.
Now to address the actual issue. I agree that some might overate him but you are indeed underating him and other warriors in the series/manga. Like most have pointed out The Sannin were most likely not teenagers if you want to go by the timeline you presented because by that timeline the Sannin woud only be in their 40s. And the fact that Tsunade is described as a much older woman it is safe to assume they are in their 60s. Also like others have pointed out age is irrelevent, Naruto and Sasuke are Kage level Ninja and they are 16 an 17 years old. Another thing that might not have been pointed out is that all the Sannin now are Kage level ninja and have been. But as you see there is more to being Kage than brute strength. Hanzo can pass a Kage level ninja in my opinion. (BTW everyone including you who weighs in on this can give nothing but opinion, because Kishi has not said directly whether or not he is or isn't.)
Very few people on here manage to piss me off. But you sir/mam, should think a little harder before you speak rudely to people. You don't have to agree. But you can respectfully agree to disagree. May I clarify that you don't have to respect one's opinion to address that PERSON in a respectful manner. It would've have been something if you were addressed in a certain way first, but you were the one who drew first blood. and Def + Rep to @Uchiha Josephus for keeping your cool despite this one's antics.
I'm sure I missed some more points that could've been made but this is what's on my mind for now.

You know I would have repped you on a flawed yet well thought out thread until I started reading your convos with the commenters who debated, RESPECTFULLY, with you. Yuo haven't proven anything except that you can be a complete and utter butthole and a rude jerk.

I'm not sure what thread you're reading... the one I'm reading contains numerous rude remarks directed at me. Not that I care. I don't mind people being a little aggressive or arrogant, provided they can back it up. None of these people can, which is annoying to say the least. Many clearly did not read my earlier posts, ignored or glossed over my replies, or didn't understand them. Quite a few admitted they couldn't be bothered reading them, and merely remarked that they "disagreed".

Now to address the actual issue. I agree that some might overate him but you are indeed underating him and other warriors in the series/manga. Like most have pointed out The Sannin were most likely not teenagers if you want to go by the timeline you presented because by that timeline the Sannin woud only be in their 40s. And the fact that Tsunade is described as a much older woman it is safe to assume they are in their 60s.

What?!!! We're given the age of the Sannin from Kishi. It's one of the only useful things from the external materials like the databooks. The Sannin are 50 at the opening of Naruto, and about 55-56 right now (Jiraiya having died at about age 54). How on earth could they be in their 40's when they fought Hanzo? We're told Jiraiya's age at the start of the manga was 50 by Kishi, and that was 12 years after the 9 Tails attack. Which brings Jiraiya to age 38. Then remember Minato had been Hokage for at least several years at the time, and several years before that he had trained Obito and Kakashi. Then factor in that Jiraiya trained Minato back when he was an academy graduate (which was at age 10, not 12 like Naruto, because he was a genius... again, this sort of timeline stuff is about the only reliable info we get from Kishi outside of the manga). And before he ever met 10 year old Minato, he was off fighting in the 3rd Shinobi World War, which went on for years unabated... and before that, he spent 3 years training Nagato. It was before all that stuff he fought Hanzo. So while it's possible Jiraiya was in his 20's still, the idea the Sannin were in their 40's is literally impossible, and they certainly hadn't reached their prime, because we know that some of their best techniques and skills and power ups happened after the battle with Hanzo (years after). Which makes the Hanzo fight pretty bad evidence of him being able to stand up to the Sannin.

But as you see there is more to being Kage than brute strength. Hanzo can pass a Kage level ninja in my opinion. (BTW everyone including you who weighs in on this can give nothing but opinion, because Kishi has not said directly whether or not he is or isn't.)

There's definitely more to being a Kage than brute power. Minato and Itachi are great examples of how you can be awesome without huge attacks or giant explosions. But before we give people the benefit of the doubt in this regard, we have to see some evidence of it. So far for Hanzo, we've got nothing to justify that sort of argument. He can't beat Mifune in a fight... something that dozens of other characters would effortlessly do. Characters who can't do jutsu without seals are fighting with a serious handicap, and need either a way to compensate for that, or some natural abilities that make it irrelevant. Hanzo appears to have neither.

I have noticed an alarming number of errors on this board, and I'm going to start trying to eliminate them so that people stop citing them as evidence for their theories.

The 3rd of these is that Hanzo of the Salamander was some amazingly awesome Shinobi. He wasn't.

Hanzo was a good ninja, no doubt there. And he had a great rep. But the more we've seen of him, the clearer it has been that he isn't anything special. The guys big claim to fame was that he fought evenly with the Sannin back when they were teenagers. This fight doesn't mean much though, because:
a) they were teenagers, who hadn't gotten nearly as strong as they would later. Tsunade didn't have her regen techniques for instance, Jiraiya doesn't seem to have Sage mode or the Rasengan (which hadn't been invented yet), Oro hadn't gone through numerous power ups from absorbing other host bodies, and adding their strength to his own, nor had he invented numerous techniques that would make him way stronger than Hanzo (like Edo Tensei). None of them seem to have had their summons available for the fight either (or were too tired to summon them). This brings me to the 2nd point,
b) We don't know the circumstances of the fight. For all we know the Sannin were exhausted from killing all Hanzo's men (see all the dead bodies visible in the fight?), and by the time Hanzo showed up they were in no condition to take him and his Salamander.

We're then left with a guy who lost to Mifune and ran away from kid Nagato, and whose name may have been "known by Shinobi all around the world", but who clearly wasn't as strong as readers of the manga first suspected he might be. There's no reason to think he could take any of the grown up Sannin individually, and dozens of other shinobi in the manga demonstrate clearly superior prowess. He's apparently useless when he isn't given time to weave signs either, meaning pretty much any decent Uchiha can own him (since they don't need their hands to use techs), just as they'd have owned Mifune when he tried to beat them with his "quick draw" sword skills. Indeed, lots of chatacters can do jutsu without seals (Rasengan, Oro's snake techs, Jiraiya's hair, etc). It's pretty embarassing really for a guy who was supposedly Kage level, but probably wasn't (unless you're comparing him to the lowest level of Kage possible, like Gaara's dad). It's also notable that he doesn't get put in the strong group, whose job is to hold off the armies advance, but is put in the crappy back-up ambush group. If Hanzo was that strong, Kabuto would have put him in the front lines with the resurrected Kage or Madara, which is where he'd be the most useful.

1) I don't remember the village of the bodies lying around on the battlefield were ever identified, so they could have been leaf shinobi that Hanzo had killed.

2) The only reason he lost to Mifune and Pain so easily is because he was out of shape from the paranoia he suffered (there was a whole chapter explaining it).

3) Not to mention that Hanzo wasn't even injured in the fight between the sannins.

Originally Posted by KGB Kakuzu
Did it state the Sannin were teens then?! I just honestly thoufh they were more like Kakashi's age which I feel would be closer to their actual prime.

Hanzo was a beast who effortlessly beat Mifune back when Mifune was actually young.

It was his dream of finding world peace that caused him to to into hiding....and as such he lost his inner Passion of his dream and his skills dulled. Because of this he was nowhere near his power in his prime. Also note he commited Sekkupu so that he couod be sealed.....Mifune didn't entirely win (though I'm sure he probably would have).

Hanzo was basically put up as an insanely strong shinobi....just because we never really saw him fight (and in his one fight it was a Hanzo that hadn't trained in probably several years, but was still a challenge despite that. He didn't even use any of his Jutsu really....

Also, Orochimaru didn't invent Edo Tensei which you mentioned he did (though I'm sure you simply meant he had not learned it). I am pretty sure Jiraiya was seen in the flashbacks as learning Sage Mode as a young boy. Orochimaru was even then being looked at by Hiruzen as a worthy candidate for Hokage except he lacked the whole will of fire thing (expirament issues).

Lastly why do you assume they are Amegakure Ninjas?! The text they stood behind the Sannin seems to me that they were Konoha shinobi. Also not Hanzo just fired off some Explosive tags...he didn't seem like the guy to go and butcher his own people

ItachiStyle you are a ******.
From Myth Busting #2 (You have no life)
"- Hirzen scored high in the databooks
There is no reason for us to treat the databooks seriously. They’re not written by the author, and are full of obviously ridiculous material. Ameratsu is not “as hot as the sun”, and Naruto isn’t dragonball Z, where power levels mean something. For heaven’s sake, the databook gives Oro the same Genjutsu score as Itachi (a 5), which is patently ridiculous. Nobody should be invoking the databook as evidence of anything, no more than non-cannon star wars material, or a bunch of fanfic really. The scores in the databook do not represent characters actual abilities (Itachi for instance owns Oro every which way on Genjutsu, yet has an equal score… ridiculous).
"

Yet in this topic, you use the databook to force feed the Sannin's age to everyone. The points you are trying to prove are pathetic, and you should get a job. Instead of being a dumbass your entire life. Look at how you talk to people. Fix yourself before you kiss yourself.