I went to Nesles today.

(to mods : I don't know how much of a political thread this one can be considered. I will take my chance. Feel free to do whatever you judge the best)

It's a small town in France were the biggest American military cemetary in Europe takes place.
I had an hour between 2 meetings, so I went there. I hadn't seen it for years, and it's still quite amazing.
I took a few pics, because I thought some of you may like to see it.

It's maintained by the American embassy. There are visits and so.
Land was given perpetuitly by the french government.
There are 6012 American soldiers buried there. All died in Europe during WW 1 & 2. 997 are unknown, meaning that their family doesn't even know where they ended.

Those days are quite sad and prone to aggression, both between Europe (especially France) and USA and eastern countries, so it's the kind of pic that should be shown from time to time as a reminder IMHO.

Please note that this is an American cemetary, but around the place I live at (north east of France, near every possible historical frontier), there are some like that for Frenchies, Italians, Dutch, Germans, Dannish, ...

It leads me to a few thoughts.

- War is a terrible thing for all camps, and it's a very easy to forget fact when you don't experience it.

- I will never be thankful enough to these poor guys who came from their homeland to defend a country they could care less about. They have my eternal gratitude and deepest respect.

- I will never cease hating the leaders who pushed them toward death. They have my eternal disagreement and disgust.

- What did they die for ? Nowadays frontiers are not even watched at, and there are discussions that all French and German people could have double nationality on their passports. And I bet that in 20 years, our passports will simply show "european". The notion of "country" is not important enough to fight for it.

- I've seen mostly crosses of course, but also manu David Stars and even a few moon croissants. Death doesn't know religions.

I visited a few of the monuments in Belgium with my school a couple of yeras ago.

The images are still in my head today.

It was shocking, and horrific, seeing rows upon rows upon rows of grave stones, in the middle of what is now pleasant countryside. Or walking up to one of the largest monuments in Belgium (I forget the name right now )....... man. I don't think I want to go back. It was just something else. A sense of awe, I suppose.

john turnerYou don't want to do that. Trust me.Staff MemberAdministrator

Originally posted by Jazz Ad What did they die for ? Nowadays frontiers are not even watched at, and there are discussions that all French and German people could have double nationality on their passports. And I bet that in 20 years, our passports will simply show "european". The notion of "country" is not important enough to fight for it.

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they died so that you could make those kinds of choices for yourself, instead of having them made for you.

Originally posted by Jazz Ad I'm more talking about WW 1 here JT.
It was all about resetting frontiers, nothing else.

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I read John Keegan's book The First World War (a one-volume history of the war) last year and it has left a lasting impression on me. We never hear about WWI, and yet it set the stage for Hitler and all of WWII. It was a staggeringly brutal and bloody war that put an end to the then-widespread notion that humanity was outgrowing its evil tendencies, killed off an enormous proportion of the male population of Europe, and literally changed the landscape of Europe to this day.

At the risk of getting canned as a political thread, I just wanted to share two thoughts about WWI and the buildup to war on Iraq:

1) People say that the impending war on Iraq is senseless. No... WWI was senseless. It was about resetting boundaries, but really it wasn't about anything. There was no point to it. At least in the case of Iraq we can point to UN resolutions and the behavior of Iraq's ruler. But WWI got started when the old-fashioned glorious notion of going off to war met machine guns and mustard gas.

2) There are some disturbing similarities between the start of WWI and what's happened since Sept. 11. WWI was set in motion by the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand -- a terrorist act. And when this happened, instead of going right to war against Serbia, Austria-Hungary sought the approval and support of Germany, which gave Serbia time to get the support of France; and then France got the support of Russia. Many historians think that if Austria-Hungary had just attacked Serbia back instead of trying to build a coalition, then Austria-Hungary would have won quickly and WWI would never have happened. I am not saying that the US should have just gone and attacked Iraq early on, but the time spent, seemingly in vain, to build a strong European coalition against Iraq certainly has given Iraq plenty of time to move weapons around and perhaps make some deals of its own.

The best we can do is pray that war can be averted and that the sacrifice the men in that graveyard made will never be required again.

john turnerYou don't want to do that. Trust me.Staff MemberAdministrator

Originally posted by Jazz Ad I'm more talking about WW 1 here JT.
It was all about resetting frontiers, nothing else.

WW 2 with Hitler and his hordes obviously had a good reason to be fought.

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oh, ok. i'm really sorry, i thought that was a ww2 grave site.

ww1 _was_ senseless, especially for france. they lost a whole generation. iirc, it took a few decades for france's population to get back to where it was before ww1.

ww1 was important in a sense. it ended the "old" way of conducting warfare. as horrible as the losses were in ww1, they would've probalby been worse with greater technology. the military tactics and technology weren't on an even pace. military tactics only really advance in wartime through use and experimentation. if there were advanced airforces, more accurate machineguns and better armored vehicles when ww1 started, and the commanders were still fighting trench/formation warfare, the losses would've been even worse.

Without Marie Joseph Paul Yves Roche Gilbert du Motier, Marquis de Lafayette (1757-1834), his example, and the decision he spurred France to to intervene in the American Revolution on the side of the colonists, this nation would not stand here now.

He is buried in American soil: he brought some back from the United States to France, and it was used for his gravesite.