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Thursday, April 23, 2009

I like your blog, but you need to chill with that fiery stuff. People should definitely always use their talents to secure and advance liberty, but when you get all start using that "blood of tyrants and patriots" language, its just an invitation for dim people to relieve their anxieties by making weak politicians into "tyrants," and therefore themselves "patriots" -- and how, by exercising the only power other can muster (in the absence of talent), and that's violence.

Just saying, I know how good it feels to get a little poetic and shake your fist, but when its on TV or the Internet (where you don't know who is listening), that little feeling isn't worth the dumb ideas it can put out there. I'm not saying tyrants don't deserve punishment, just that people can find themselves supporting or echoing things that they don't come form their heart, and they have too much pride or insecurity, to get honest with themselves. This is how dumb kids get sucked into the military, and praising Bush -- because they're already publicly committed to some position they heard poetically delivered by someone who was wise enough not to take themselves too seriously, or commit the same ego-fueled mistake.April 23, 2009 1:22 AM

Russel, the poetic license is credited to Thomas Jefferson, not me.

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. ... God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion; what country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms." -- Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787

I’m so sorry to see that you didn’t recognize it.It should be taught in schools all over the world because it’s some of Jefferson’s most wisest and profound words. It’s certainly not “dumb ideas”. It’s how true freedom and democracy is preserved, when leaders truly fear and respect “the people”.Unfortunately we’ve reached the point here where civil war is hanging over our heads like a Damocles sword these days.It’s no supposition of mine. There are report by the CIA and other American agencies that see this possibility very clearly, and our own press and even our vice president know this as well, and have sometimes admitted it openly.People are fed up. We are all getting poorer, more abused, stolen of our rights and property and it’s really getting to that point (again) when the society is about to explode in violence.

Is something true just because Jefferson said it? Is he God, Jesus, or Moses?

What kind of country can survive civil war every 20 years? I don't think that has ever been demonstrated in history.

Besides, the man lived over 200 years ago. We discovered psychology 100 years ago and we now acknowledge the existence of personality disorders in narcissists and sociopaths.

The fact that "we, the people" (Americans) have generally failed at properly screening our politicians. If revolt was to happen, wouldn't those politicians be replaced by the people who voted for them?

Aren't your parents from Spain? They should know that war is the most undesirable option.

Jeff W, are you arguing that you wouldn't defend your home or country against men that wish to destroy it?

In your view, is there nothing worth fighting for? It appears that your answer is no, there is nothing you would fight to defend, because war is worse than having your home, your family or your country destroyed by tyrants.

Do I understand you, as you intended?

I am completely certain that USA is following Argentina's example. I believed that this was inevitable since 1999. Even when folks were telling me then that Argentina was not about to crash. I could see the writing on the wall.

When the USA completely sinks into this newly manufactured Great Depression, most of the world will sink with it. What we write today, really will have no bearing on how events turn out. As we pass 25% unemployment, the mob will do as it pleases. It would be narcissistic to believe that we will direct or control the mob.

Though Jeff, I understand you're worried that are leaders who are waging an economic war against the USA, will suffer if the mob goes into a frenzy. But I think you're worry is misplaced. Once our leaders have looted the USA as thoroughly they can, they can simply fly away to safer havens with their lucre. Most of them will face no actual physical or legal danger as a consequence of their crimes.

When you're homeless and unemployed, you can rest assured that the people who ruined your life, are safe, somewhere out there, eating well and sleeping like a baby.

I like your blog, but you need to chill with that fiery stuff. I agree. For the same reason, we should immediately ban possession of Common Sense, The Rights of Man and that pesky Declaration of Independence.

Might cause a revolution or something.

BTW, Jeff W, old ideas are not necessarily bad ones. Most important epistemological, psychological, political and philosophical concepts were derived in ancient Greece. The Americans who fought in the Revolution and laid down the Constitution didn't have the DSM IV-TR, but they could have told you in precise detail the personality characteristics of sociopaths and narcissists and how and why it is necessary to keep them away from the levers of power.

Also, Jefferson clearly did not have "civil war" in mind when he wrote to Madison of Shay's Rebellion:

I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government.Nice straw man, though.

Ferfal,so sorry about Russel and the other (americans).Uh yeah weak minded people mighht take up arms and fight for what they believe in! When obamma and crew turn us in to argentina dont cry and wonder why!Ferfal keep up the great work!Jefferson,payne, franklin,et all 200 yrs ago or 4-23-09 Thanks Bro!

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with inherent and inalienable rights; that among these, are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness." --Declaration of Independence as originally written by Thomas Jefferson, 1776. ME 1:29, Papers 1:315

Anyway though, I recognized the quote and its source. Jefferson said it to his close friend Madison, in regard to Shay's rebellion. You said it in regard to our current circumstance, to.. you have no idea. You think Jefferson would have said the same thing in a far reaching news paper op-ed? He wasn't making a blanket endorsement of violent revolution.

Either way, I wasn't taking issue with his sentiments, just your somewhat lazy co-opting of it. There are kids in Iraq/Afghanistan today that go swept up in the post-9/11 atmosphere where people of influence co-opted the inspirational words of our national heros to lend credibility to their endeavor. Plenty of those guys and gals found themselves thrust into something they weren't ready for, but 5 years later, have to be pretty committed to it.

My point was, and remains, that unlike real face-to-face life, the Internet & TV (mediums where you don't know who you're talking to) you can't just casually call for blood. Its serious enough business, that if someone less strong-minded than yourself adopts and echoes it, they may not be strong enough to admit their folly.

I'm extremely weary of Obama. However, I have a harder time meditating on those feelings when I see people voice the same with such ignorant abandon. I'm not talking about yourself, rather, the sour grapes anti-Obama folks who hijacked and subtracted from the credibility of the Tea Parties. A lot of those people bought into the "he's a secret muslim, terrorism, black marxist, foreign-born, manchurian candidate, Anti-Christ" hysteria from the election.. and the echoed it. When he didn't immediately put a golden dome on the White House, install Farrakan as the Sec. of State, give Bill Ayers the Medal of Freedom, or ban Christianity, a lot of people were left with egg on their face. And boy weren't they ready to spare themselves the embarrassment of admitting they'd lost it a bit, by turning the paranoia and shrill rhetoric, at the expense of a real debate about Obama's economic plan. What could have been a real grass-roots taxpayers revolt, was spoiled by McCain's campaign from half a year ago, that saw it to their advantage to let good people promote and persist in ignorance (for that reason alone -- deep proof of a lack of a moral compass), I'm glad he lost. (And it wasn't the media's focus on the Tea Party nutsjobs or lack of coverage that neutered the wanna-be "movement," it was Fox News & the GOP's attempt to hyper-endorse and hijack the events that flooded them attention-demanding airheads before the strong 'organic' social networking of a real grassroots movement could take root -- just anticipating a lot of replies about this, so I'll nip it in the bud now.

Its not that this sort of public derangement really bugs me that much, but that in the process, people distance themselves from their friends & family either by not being able to admit hey were wrong, or similarly by bullying those people into sharing their skewed view on reality. In the end, the social fabric (at the most fundamental and necessary level) is eroded. This makes them more prone to the influences of manipulative charismatic people. Personally, I blame television and the deluded fame-seekers it attracts for putting society in its current position, where people like Limbaugh, Palin and Obama can develop such unreasonably devout followings.

You comment wasn't really a big deal, but I guess now, blah blah blah, its a conversation. Since were here, those are my thoughts. I usually don't put myself out there, but considering the audience here, I think it calls for a little self-filtering of comments that casually fly amongst friends & family who know exactly how much you mean it -- (no offense, but let's be honest, there is a higher frequency of fringe/vulnerable readers here than say "pregnancy.com" or the New England journal of Medicine Online.)

-----

about the comments:I saw that I was called a selfish person of the like that causes the financial crisis, a coward, etc. My beef w/ FerFal's initial post was that strong language can make people polarize and get entrenched in a position that puts them in opposition to people that are naturally their brothers. Everything that spun from that was kind of proved this. I don't think they're stupid people for saying that, or that I wouldn't like them. But as things polarize like this, its hard for either of us to be having an exchange that shows the best of us. I'm not a coward for advocating reasoned and sober use of language that calls for very serious things. If we get a little casual about it when we're speaking outside our normal circle of friends/fam, we water down its power -- like crying wolf.

Anyway, this is too long and not going anywhere new anyway, so I'm going to bed.FerFal - All fuss aside, I'm a fan of course. Big ups. Keep it up.

This is my last comment on this discussion. I'm not trying to have some Internet debate. later all -- goodnight.

Russell, i think your last comment might have made more sense to me in the 1990s.

Much of it I still agree with. We have a criminal class in the US that is destroying my country. they divide themselves into fake camps of Republican and Democrats.

They will not be ousted until they've destroyed this nation. I know this is the realistic view. But it would've been better had they never been allowed to take power. It would've been better if Americans fought for their rights as hard as people in other countries do.

But we don't. And your message of tolerance in regards to the criminal class, isn't helping.

You don't coddle criminals in the hopes that they won't destroy your life for their own personal gain.

They don't love you. They don't care about you. Many think it's funny that you even try to resist as they destroy your livelihood. It makes them feel good, to see you suffer.

We don't need a violent uprising, or at least years ago, this could have been solved without one. A demand for indictments and convictions would've done the trick.

Now our leaders are no longer bound by the rule of law. No matter what crimes they commit, they will not be indicted.

As to those of us here on the 'fringe' as you put it. I think most of us know that the best way to avoid trouble is avoid being in it's way. If you're interested in your family's self interest, then you're not going to go out and throw rocks at policemen. there will be plenty of people doing that. And as this depression deepens, there will be assassinations and clashes with the police. Every country sees these things when it's leadership destroys it economically.

It is clear from what I've read of Ferfal so far that he is not advocating any such activity.

And the folks I would characterize as the fringe, aren't likely to hang here long. If they are looking for trouble, then FerFal isn't offering them new info. And there are better blogs on the web for extremists. They'll be going there.

The USA is headed for a period of intense turmoil. Ferfal and the readers here, will play no role in fomenting it. The criminal ruling class is going to make it happen, of their own free will. And it is intentional. We're a civilization in decline. We've passed the halfway mark in resource extraction and every year from now on, industry worldwide will decline. In the past, when civilizations have experienced resource declines, they fell back to war. And that is coming.

As to Afghani and Iraqi people becoming committed to a cause, well it wasn't FerFal's doing. When foreign troops and mercenaries are killing people you love, you can't help but change. The notion that someone talked them into becoming anti-American seems to me to be a naive argument.

Russell, no offense intended, but I think you need to leave USA for a while to truly appreciate the liberties you have. I don’t know you, maybe you are just too young or maybe you’ve lived a life too sheltered.

You’ve talked about psychology, and to me its all jut BS. I haven’t met a single person that was better off after years of therapy. In my opinion, in most cases, it weakens a person’s core by blaming his problems on others, instead off manning up and assuming responsibility.What Thomas Jefferson ( by the way, he was a hero and one of the brightest men, too bad you don’t appreciate it) clearly knew but you fail to understand is that he true power of USA lies in its inhabitants ability to fight tyrants, thanks to the first and second amendments. Those are so unique around the world, you can’t understand how special they are until you don’t have them. Go live like Cubans do for a while, try being just another poor guy in the land of Chavez or Evo Morales, and then go back to USA. I assure you, you’ll understand what I mean much better.I have absolutely no desire to see blood on the streets, but I know that there’s an even worse alternative.For true democracy, the government must fear the people, not the other way around.

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