Since the American Psychiatric Association published its first edition of the DSM in 1952 and through all four editions, including the fifth edition due out in May of 2013, not a single MENTAL disorder has been treated by removing healthy BODY parts EXCEPT body/gender dysphoric disorder. One might say lobotomies and/or similar "surgeries" have been performed since, but lobotomies were performed on brains found to be UNhealthy(rightly or wrongly so). There has been no such findings in the breasts/uteri/ovaries/penis's/testes that are standard removals for those suffering with body/gender issues.

That being stated, why do you feel the male medical machines is only removing/rearranging healthy body parts from individuals classified as suffering from a MENTAL disorder to relieve their suffering/dysphoria? Especially given that there isnt a single proven case that the removal of certain healthy body parts doesnt cure the patient of their dysphoria, as it returns again and again and again short to mid term?

Also why do you feel the male medical machine is targeting very specific body parts, when clearly every body part of the patient is either male or female?

41 comments:

Lobotomies were not performed only on brains "found" to be "unhealthy." Many of them were performed on women who wouldn't do the housework. The majority of lobotomy victims were women.That said, yeah, SRS surgery makes about as much sense as lobotomy.

"A lobotomy is not anything like SRS, SRS is so your genitals look how THEY (my emphasis) want to look."

Lots of people want surgery to make various body parts look how they want them to look -- but they DON'T get it for free, or as treatment for some supposed disorder.

"Gawd, this is the dumbest thing I've read here." Only because you've missed the point and been brainwashed into the surgical mutilation into something that looks like a thing but doesn't function like a thing is a VALID thing to do to healthy, functioning bits of your body.

This is also supposed to be a CURE or a TREATMENT for a disorder, and there are few other examples I can think of where healthy organs are removed as a treatment (okay, some women with a familial history of various cancers and are at very high rosk themselves do sometimes have hysterectomies or masectomies, but at least in this case there is a clearly understood and quantifiable risk. Whereas with SRS, the data as regards the efficacy of this 'treatment' ISN'T there (I don't mean anecdotes, I mean proper evidence of the sort used to make decisions by hospitals trusts etc. Parties who have looked into it admit that there isn't sufficient data on the long-term results).

"SRS is so your genitals look how they want to look." Last time I looked it up, breasts weren't classed as genitalia........

"Also why do you feel the male medical machine is targeting very specific body parts.." Simple. Because as far as the patriarchy is concerned, having breasts and no penis equals female, having a penis and no breasts equals male. Although at a pinch, being able to pee standing up and the ability to penetrate someone counts as male, whereas having a hole JUST for penetration makes you female.

Why are you so OBSESSED with this topic? Why plough so much negative energy into it? Shakespeare's saying 'He doth protest too much' comes to mind. What business is it of yours what others choose to do with their lives/bodies. Who are you to judge and publically humiliate? One could argue that having a tattoo is mutilation of perfectly healthy body parts. I don't think this is really what it's all about. You are looking for reasons not to transition yourself more likely.

I originally got the info on how more lobotomies were done on women in reading I did prior to my years of owning a computer, but I have pulled up a couple of quick links online. Here's the history of the Stockton lobotomies: http://www.psychosurgery.org/2006/07/the-stockton-lobotomies/The abstract of a study of lobotomy at another hospital http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11016206 . Most patients were again women (plus children and "idiots"). This was pretty much the pattern everywhere. If I have time, I'll look up more online sources.

"What business is it of yours what others choose to do with their lives/bodies. Who are you to judge and publically humiliate?"

The same ole 'why do you care about what anyone else does'.....

I ask in reply -- why DON'T you care about the possibility, even just the possibility, that women are choosing to transition not because it is their only option, but because it seems to be the best option that the medical establishment offers them as a supposed 'treatment' for their condition?

Saying that you DISAGREE with the trans ideology ISN'T the same as publically humiliating or passing judgement on those that do, or who choose to transition.

Seems that the trans ideology wants us all to STOP caring about others, and NEVER dare to question what anyone else does ever. Which would be a very sad world to live in, and I hope I never do............

"I don't think this is really what it's all about. You are looking for reasons not to transition yourself more likely."

Why are you so AFRAID of actually addressing the concerns about transition that have been raised here? Why are you ignoring the posts from women who considered transition, and are jolly glad that they found this blog and realised they had other options?

Also a specious argument, because according to the standard trans dogma, if you're trans you magically KNOW that you're actually male, and whether or not you transition/have surgery/don't have surgery is supposed to be some inviolable personal choice that should be respected -- except this very attempted insult makes it CRYSTAL CLEAR that denying your supposed trans status, or not being 'brave enough' to transition is something to be mocked.............

The public humiliation I am referring to is the stills you choose from youtube periodically. These people have as much right to express there opinions, record their experiences and share with the youtube community, as you do to this blog. Do they not deserve some respect and dignity. They do not ask to be displayed by someone who despises (or allegedly 'disagrees' with) what they are doing and they do not bother you in a similar fashion. Why do you feel the need to publish their faces? Answer that one question if you avoid everything else I've written here.

You have every right to disagree, but what they are doing is fact. It is a process (not all about surgery/drugs) to treat a recognised medical condition. You cannot avoid this fact. You can disagree but you are disagreeing with the medical profession on a matter you clearly do not fully comprehend. For example, if this course of treatment prevents a person from committing suicide and achieves their goal of true happiness and wellbeing, what is wrong with it? many of these souls have been to exactly that place before they transition. That is not to say things have to be that extreme. It is hoped that people seek treatment prior to becoming this distressed.

I quote 'you/they will never be male'. Tell me, what constitutes male in your mind/world? Which social construct are you subscribing to? You are the ONLY person I know who has actually said that out loud. Most gender conscious people would not be so bold as to state what is and isn't male. The spectrum is huge and is not limited to physiological/psyhcological/physical/social attributes. Many could easily define you as male, especially if they were to judge by appearances alone.

So, if you cannot define what is male, how can you say who is/will be considered male in society?

Your cause is very interesting and challenging to me, mainly because I really don't see what your motivation is to be so passionate [angry] about this subject.

You clearly pour hours and hours of your own time into this blog. You read a lot and you are sometimes well informed but you also often misquote facts/statistics or do not state your sources.

"Saying that you DISAGREE with the trans ideology ISN'T the same as publicly humiliating or passing judgment on those that do, or who choose to transition."

This is true. However, Dirt DOES call out and humiliate people on her blog. Aside from the weekly trans-trending posts, she has made posts singling out individual people and talking about how disturbed/delusional/stupid she thinks they are.

Since hundreds of thousands of people around the world have either both sets of sex chromosomes (for example, xx in organs and xy in blood) or a variation of said chromosomes (for example, xxy, xxx, xy female, etc.) without having genital abnormalities, no one knows for sure if those so-called "healthy", but unwanted bodyparts are male or female. You can only assume that they are, unless you know that the person in question has had a kareotype test done and shared those results with you. Sex chromosomes don't have the final word on sexual identity, the brain does.

Its not that doctors are actually recommending surgical srs as a "cure" or a "treatment" Its more that there is a market for it, people are seeking these surgeries the same way someone seeks breast enlargement surgery.

"Sex chromosomes don't have the final word on sexual identity, the brain does."

Here we go again, the same old story. Too bad that's the "brain sex" theory isn't proved and of course it's leaving out the gender straightjacket, the fetishist and homophobic aspects. But of course who needs a proof. Just kiss everyones ass who claims to be the opposite gender.

Er. The First Amendment. You know, that thing where ordinary people notice some thing which is wack, and then discuss the myriad ways in which the thing is wack.

Oftentimes accompanied by pictures. On blogs. what a concept. lol

Or would you care to make the argument that disagreement and criticism not be allowed in a free society? Because that is indeed the argument you are proposing. Hello. It's a Constitutional Right for a reason, you freaking jackass.

Honestly, your motivations must be extremely corrupt to even suggest the elimination of free speech. It's only the CORNERSTONE of democracy -- what the fuck is wrong with you?

Another thing. Men have made the argument for eons that any criticism of the craptastic things men do to women, is "hatred of men". They would actually imprison feminists for "hate crimes" against men if the First Amendment didn't exist.

And that's the category you occupy -- the category of dominating asshole who would silence any critique of a sexist misogynist system.

If it is possible for someone to express the qualities traditionally associated with their opposite gender without surgery -- and it is -- then the only remaining explanation for transgenderism is a body part FETISH. Which is a mental illness and the standard treatment for fetishes is talk therapy and pills. Not forcing everybody else into pretending that the patient was abducted by aliens.

"but you are disagreeing with the medical profession on a matter you clearly do not fully comprehend."

And you do? You TRUST the medics, despite the clear facts (I'm not a meic, but I am an academic scientist, university lecturer, AND a specialist in medical image analysis and interpretation) that the literature itself (sheffield meta-analysis etc) reports that there is no good data as regards the long-term effectiveness of SRS etc. As regards brain sex, the actual data and academic literature disagree with it pretty strongly. I know, I've READ the papers.

"Sex chromosomes don't have the final word on sexual identity, the brain does." Belief, pure and simple, the science ISN'T that simple. Plus the usual, let's confuse trans with intersex, or try and PRESENT trans as if it were a clearly distinguishable physical or genetic condition. It ain't, it's psychological, and the etiology is poorly understood.

The point is, that SRS is something that trans people WANT, and something that the medical community has come to accept as supposedly a valid option they have to offer to the very real distress these people feel.

I could also add that very obviously (like other types of plastic surgery), what is in demand and what people are willing to PAY for, gets plenty of surgeons willing to offer it.

"no one knows for sure if those so-called "healthy", but unwanted bodyparts are male or female."

Wrong on several grounds here. First, trying to link trans with intersex conditions. Second, assuming that what intersex people ALSO want is surgical alteration of the 'wrong' genitalia, whereas from my reading, what many intersex people are very strongly against is genital surgery on children, or surgery just to make genitalia appear more 'normal' (which seems to make parents and doctors happier).

"no one knows for sure if those so-called "healthy", but unwanted bodyparts are male or female." Well, if you've got normal female genitalia, have periods etc (or may even have given birth), and normal female secondary sexual characteristics, I'd say that it's a pretty good bet that THOSE organs are FEMALE.

There is a load of difference between REAL physical abnormalities and real genetic abnormalities, and trans. This emphasis on 'sex/gender is in the brain' is, it seems to me, a desperate effort to still keep trans as a condition akin to intersex (i.e a 'birth defect' or mismatch of some kind), because all efforts to find a physical or genetic link to trans have failed.

But then you contradict yourself, because if you're genetically female with female genitalia, then those organs are certainly FEMALE, I thought it was the brain that was somehow supposed to be 'male' (whatever that means, the science ain't there, it's just the magical internal male voice that we have to rely on..........).

Basic biology -- SEX is sex chromosomes. There can be a genetic abnormality, there can be a developmental disorder, whereby phenotype doesn't match sesx chromosomes, but you can't hide behind the gender as construct in the brain issue, by just trying to claim that trans is just another developmental disorder, but of the brain rather than some other organ.

All goes back to the question Dirt keeps asking -- if you're so convinced you've got a male brain, what the frig is that supposed to MEAN, and what does 'feeling like a boy' mean? Unless you want to go back to the ole body map in the brain, and my innate body map says I should have an outie rather than an innie............

@ badyke In my post I was not comparing transpeople with intersexed, even if it's a very valid argument. I was simply pointing out that many people in the world have sex chromosomes mosaics or a variation of these, without even knowing it, and without being transsexual or intersexed. My point was to demonstrate that the opinion of many on this blog ( that a ftm is not really male because his body parts are still female because you can't change the chromosomes,) is useless and invalid since you can't know for sure what anybody's chromosomal sex is without a kareotype. I and others might presume that I have xx chromosomes because at one time I had breasts or a female reproductive system (thank god these things are gone!,) but you and I can't prove it without a test. As for the brain sex studies, there are quite a few which attempt to show that there is a brain sex . If there wasn't, David Reimer would have been happy with being raised a girl and certainly would not have ended up killing himself due to all the anguish that having the body opposite to what you are in your mind caused him. Chromosomal sex has nothing to do with sexual identity.

I will back you up, from personal experience that having a mismatch between how you really look and how you imagine yourself to look does NOT equal trans, is NOT synonymous with body 'hatred' and does NOT need to be 'aligned' in order to lead a normal life. People are too quick to try and fix what ain't broke. I don't need hardcore psych meds or transition.

As for the brain sex studies, there are quite a few which attempt to show that there is a brain sex . If there wasn't, David Reimer would have been happy with being raised a girl and certainly would not have ended up killing himself due to all the anguish that having the body opposite to what you

Somebody probably needs to do a post or twelve on David Reimer, because his suicide doesn't prove what tran-trenders prefer to believe it does.

First, the facts:

1). HE DID NOT DESIRE A SEX-CHANGE. At no time did he ever want a sex-change. A tad different situation from the mentally ill who fondly fantasize about a sex-change.

2). His parents were staunch members of the he-man woman haters club. They both assumed that males and females were very different from each other, and there was no safe place for girls who liked trucks in their home.

3). His parents were guilt-stricken for participating in a situation which resulted in his penis being virtually destroyed.

4). SEVERAL YEARS AFTER THE BOTCHED OPERATION, the doctors said, "well since he doesn't have a penis anymore then you could raise him as a girl". Which might have worked out, except that his parents had already been socializing him as a boy, but most importantly, his parents were traumatized by guilt and so would have been extremely ambivalent regarding the consistency of any boy/girl messages they threw at him.

Conclusion: David would not have received the consistent message that he was a girl whom his parents loved, he would have received a series of ambivalent messages that he was a defective boy who was being ineffectually raised as particularly unwanted girl-child ONLY because of a botched medical procedure.

Come to find out, his suicide is a result of the same dynamic which drives some pedophiles to kill themselves -- public scorn, parental ambivalence and internalized shame. But besides that, we have another fallacy:

A belief that god exists, is proof that god exists. This is same invalid logic form used by religious zealots and evolutionary-psych idiots:

1). Look! We have a fact regarding a difference between male and females! And sexism doesn't exist!

2). Because sexism doesn't exist, and because genderized socializations don't exist, then the only other possible explanation which fits our fact, is that differences in male and female behavior is natural.

Your implicit assumption is that genderized socializations do not exist, which is patently false.

http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/ That website routinely examines the genderized socializations which our society is literally soaking in. The entire fields of Psychology, Sociology, and Marketing deconstructs how expectations will affect behavior. Hundreds of thousands of books have been written on the subject and those basic theories have NEVER been disproved. Only with sexism are we asked to believe that socialization doesn't exist.

"If there wasn't, David Reimer would have been happy with being raised a girl and certainly would not have ended up killing himself "

Wtf?? Happy?? He wasn't just raised as a girl! He and his brother were ABUSED by John Money for years! It's just awful to claim that he killed himself just because he was raised as a girl. It goes much deeper.

"that a ftm is not really male because his body parts are still female because you can't change the chromosomes,) is useless and invalid since you can't know for sure what anybody's chromosomal sex is "

Wrong. You are confusing what is true with what we can PROVE is true, and forgetting about what is very probably true.

So, for all everyday common purposes, it is TRUE that the sun rose today, and will rise tomorrow, even though it is impossible to prove that it will.

Similarly, I may not know what everyones sex chromosomes ARE, but it IS knowable in principal, and for all practical purposes, we have a pretty good idea of the correlation between XX and 'normal' female body parts, and XY and 'normal' male body parts, and the relative incidence of various genetic and develomental and other 'disorders','abnormalities' etc.

So, there is, perhaps, a very very SMALL probability that an individual transguy MAY actually be 'male' in some chromosomal sense, but that true about ALL transguys, and that isn't what science has to say about trans as a whole.

Faulty logic my little friend.

"As forthe brain sex studies, there are quite a few which attempt to show that there is a brain sex . "

Yeah, as I've said before, I've READ the scientific literature, and the brain sex theory is pretty much out of contention.

"Chromosomal sex has nothing to do with sexual identity." Now the sex chromosome get left out of the picture altogether! What madness!

Identity has got fuck all to do with simple biological facts, it's the difference between what you ARE, and what you BELIEVE you are, and most people can see that there is an essential difference there, and that it is quite possible to be mistaken in your beliefs. You may FEEL that you have a 'male brain', but that doesn't mean that it is so, or that such a concept makes sense.

It's like trying to argue against religion, frankly, and for very much the same reasons................

"So, there is, perhaps, a very very SMALL probability that an individual transguy MAY actually be 'male' in some chromosomal sense, but that isn't true about ALL transguys, and that isn't what science has to say about trans as a whole."

Boils down to -- just because there are SOME developmental disorders where we can't infer sex chromosomes totally reliably based on external indicators, doesn't mean that we can't do so in the majority of cases, and doesn't mean that we can't do it reliably for trans people either.

"Tell me, what constitutes male in your mind/world? Which social construct are you subscribing to? "

MALE isn't a social construct, but a biological fact. Stop confusing SEX and GENDER, they're not interchangable........

"how can you say who is/will be considered male in society?" Doesn't matter a flying fuck what society considers you to be, won't change biology facts. Just means you've managed to dress-up well enough to fool some of the people some of the time.................

"but you also often misquote facts/statistics or do not state your sources." And your data for that is? O dear, you've just done exactly what you're trying to accuse Dirt of! Nil points.

@ anon 2:15 David Reimer did not want a sex-change! Lololololol. Are you fucking crazy? His life was such hell as a girl, especially when he started growing boobs because of the fucking estrogen pills they forced him to take when he was 12 that his parents finally realized it wasn't working out and told him he had been born a boy. As soon as "brenda" ( his name back then) found out, Brenda immediatly wanted to stop taking estrogen, changed his name to David, has his breasts removed and later on had bottom surgery. It's incredible how you fucking people change or distort and twist the truth and many times outright lie to make a situation fit your worl view. Maybe you should watch this documentary http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GhbVFjIaN0&feature=youtube_gdata_playerfor the truth, straight from the horse's

Reimer was nothing more than another sick JM experiment, one in which he desperately tried to cover up. But his sick twister sexual/gender ideas werent just limited to David, the other twin was experimented on as well and not surprisingly also later committed suicide. If one wants some REAL TRUE incite into JM, I suggest reading Janet Frame's (another JM sufferer) Daughter Buffalo, the character Lenore is based on him and his god egoness. Least we forget JM was notorious for experimenting on intersex babies.

I wonder how many trans people who subscribe to JM's GI/GID bullshit also subscribe to his pro pedophile positions?

The fathers of transition, one a complete and utter homophobe and the other a pro pedophilic pervert, now there's some people to base your entire identity upon!

As a transman, I certainly don't agree with Jonn Money's sick assertions. What he did to Reimer and others is despicable, but he did these things because he believed like many of you on this blog that the brain had no gender and was like a blank slate, which could become male or female depending on how the child was raised. That's why he believed Reimer could be raised as a girl. From what I've read, you people believe there's no gender and that it is society's creation of gender roles and the way someone is raised which cause someone to be transsexual or someone to believe he is male or female. So, in actuality, you think like that fucker, John Money.

I do not remotely believe the brain has no sex, clearly as a female, my brain like any other females is 100% female. You might wish to do some serious rereading given you have such a distorted view of whats actually being said here.

Like I said already, chromosomes DO NOT necessarily equal sex. And if you consider yourself a female only because you have a pussy, I feel quite sorry for you. As for what I wrote about some people's opinion on the brain not having a gender, I stand by what I wrote. Maybe you haven't personnally said so,, but I remember reading posts by people who clearly stated that. And when you write that your brain is 100% female like all females, you jump to conclusions. I think YOU should reread some of the previous posts about kareotype testing.

Statistically there is all but a tiny chance that having a vagina = XX karyotype. Every cell in your body (and brain) contains this info.

Why do you feel sorry for someone who assumes that they are female because they have a vagina? The odds are incredibly good. Unless you consider that femaleness is an inferior state which should be avoided by a series of theoretical gymnastics? Hmmm.

"Like I said already, chromosomes DO NOT necessarily equal sex. And if you consider yourself a female only because you have a pussy, I feel quite sorry for you. As for what I wrote about some people's opinion on the brain not having a gender,.."

Sex and gender getting confused again!

"And if you consider yourself a female only because you have a pussy, I feel quite sorry for you."

Why? Because I don't have some innate sense of gender, or some inner voice that tells me that I'm REALLY female because my brain says so?

I'm think that I'm (probably) chromosomally female because that is the set of secondary sexual characteristics that I've got, and because they seem to work, hence assuming I'm XX is a decent bet, statistically speaking. What else IS there to be as regards being female? I know that I was raised as if I was female (not all of which was that great), and I've questioned what differences there really ARE between men and women/males and females apart from the obvious ones based on pussy or prick, AND that whole load of stuff that society dumps on us that says what it means to be male or female in this society.

I do find it quite odd that you seem to feel sorry for those of us who DON'T have that inner voice, or innate sense of gender. I don't, hence I'm left with the task of working out for myself what sort of human being I think I should be, given that I think what society has to say about how I should be based on my presumed sex is a load of nonsense.

Why should you feel sorry for me?

Forget about brains not having gender, I don't think humans should have gender, full-stop. We have sex, obviously, hence I have a female brain, but I don't think that necessarily means that much, whereas obviously you do.