He certainly has, and that's generally not the argument. More the wrong he DID do was always close to being right.

Ish.

In WC3, dude was totally a sympathetic character who was driven to the wrong thing for poingent and understandable reasons.

It was the shifty wota books that hurt his character, largely because WC3 Furion was an even bigger dick to Illidan than WotA one was.

Except "in WC3" includes and was informed by the accompanying historical account of the War of the Ancients, whereby he wasn't really sympathetic at all because he outright warned Azshara of Malfurion's plan to stop her by collapsing the Well of Eternity, and blatantly sided with the Highborne against his brother (and the rest of his people) because he didn't want to lose the Well's power.

As bad as he was in the novels, the original history was arguably even more damning for Illidan because in it, he went full-blown traitor for selfish reasons without even the lame excuse of "pretending" to undermine the Highborne from within.

I felt the WC3 reason, of him being driven mad by pain and Malfurion and his people, who he fought for, condemning him to that fate with the wells destruction, was a much more acceptable and understandable reason.

I felt the WC3 reason, of him being driven mad by pain and Malfurion and his people, who he fought for, condemning him to that fate with the wells destruction, was a much more acceptable and understandable reason.

People forget the side effects of losing the wells power

Except he didn't fight for them. He betrayed them. As in, facilitated Azshara slaughtering truckloads of kaldorei (and almost killing Tyrande) as they tried to close the Legion's portal, and did so remorselessly to boot.

And he hadn't lost the Well's power yet when he did those things, so arcane withdrawal isn't really an excuse.

That's the history that informed his backstory and character in WC3.

"Acceptable" has nothing to do with anything, and is at the heart of people whitewashing characters into something they never were to make them more palatable. Whether something actually happened or not is in no way changed by whether you think it happening was acceptable or not.

Except he didn't fight for them. He betrayed them. As in, facilitated Azshara slaughtering truckloads of kaldorei (and almost killing Tyrande) as they tried to close the Legion's portal, and did so remorselessly to boot.

And he hadn't lost the Well's power yet when he did those things, so arcane withdrawal isn't really an excuse.

That's the history that informed his backstory and character in WC3.

"Acceptable" has nothing to do with anything, and is at the heart of people whitewashing characters into something they never were to make them more palatable. Whether something actually happened or not is in no way changed by whether you think it happening was acceptable or not.

You have the history mixed up.

Illidan first gave up Arcane because Malfurion asked him to in the original version. Illidan then fought against Azshara and the highborn beside Malfurion and Tyrande, with Tyrande nursing him through arcane withdrawl and the insanity it caused.

It wasn't until late in the war, after Illidan had been a hero to the Night Elves (this is the part Tyrande references in WC3 when freeing him) that he betrayed the host to Azshara, after Malfurion had proposed the idea to destroy the Well of Eternity, which was condemning Illidan to a LIFETIME of what he had already endured at the behest of his brother.

In the original version, Illidan cared very deeply for Malfurion, and respected him enough to forsake arcane for him. It wasn't until the novel version that Illidan acted the arrogant stalker creep. It served to not only make him less sympathetic, but it also tried to whitewash him into being a double agent.

As for it happening or not, of course it happened. But context, and more importantly, character motive, is the real thing to look at, not the action itself.

Otherwise, you get nothing but black and white.

In illidan's case?

The original version, he betrayed the Night Elven host after being driven insane, watching the person who he fell in love with with (who also coincidentally helped keep him as sane as he could be) fall in love with his brother (who asked Illidan to go through this insanity in the first place) and then, same brother and women condemned Illidan to a torturous insanity ridden existence. Thus he betrayed them, feeling betrayed himself in a magic withdrawl induced bout of madness.

In the new version, he played double agent because his ego wanted to make him the big hero who showed up his brother because the local hot chick wouldn't ride his pony.

One version paints Illidan as a sympathetic character who you felt sorry for, understood his motives, and could relate to, who was driven to the edge of sanity by placing trust in those he loved until his mind broke.

The other version paints him as a guy who did better things, but also turned him into an uber-jealous obsessive, stalker creep, and utterly broke the dynamic the Stormrage brothers and Tyrande had in WC3 and TFT.

Illidan first gave up Arcane because Malfurion asked him to in the original version. Illidan then fought against Azshara and the highborn beside Malfurion and Tyrande, with Tyrande nursing him through arcane withdrawl and the insanity it caused.

It wasn't until late in the war, after Illidan had been a hero to the Night Elves (this is the part Tyrande references in WC3 when freeing him) that he betrayed the host to Azshara, after Malfurion had proposed the idea to destroy the Well of Eternity, which was condemning Illidan to a LIFETIME of what he had already endured at the behest of his brother.

In the original version, Illidan cared very deeply for Malfurion, and respected him enough to forsake arcane for him. It wasn't until the novel version that Illidan acted the arrogant stalker creep. It served to not only make him less sympathetic, but it also tried to whitewash him into being a double agent.

As for it happening or not, of course it happened. But context, and more importantly, character motive, is the real thing to look at, not the action itself.

Otherwise, you get nothing but black and white.

What condemning? Abstaining from using arcane magic wasn't some short-term thing that would completely change once the demons were gone - it was the magic itself that they convinced him to give up, because the use of arcane magic was what had caused the whole Legion problem in the first place.

If losing the Well - which would mean continuing to abstain from magic as he'd already promised to do with their help - was that massive of a blow, then it means Illidan never intended to follow through in the first place, and was being disingenuous in his efforts to refrain from using magic the whole time by always intending to eventually go right back to tapping the Well again.

He'd basically sworn to leave the giant pile of magic alone, then when he found out the pile was going away, he revealed that the only thing keeping him "honest" was the knowledge that sooner or later he'd get another shot at that sweet, sweet fix again.

What condemning? Abstaining from using arcane magic wasn't some short-term thing that would completely change once the demons were gone - it was the magic itself that they convinced him to give up, because the use of arcane magic was what had caused the whole Legion problem in the first place.

If losing the Well - which would mean continuing to do what he'd already promised to do with their help - was that massive of a blow, then Illidan never intended to follow through in the first place, and was being disingenuous in his efforts to refrain from using magic by always intending to go right back to tapping the Well again.

Not using something when current methods are dangerous makes sense. And he should have agreed to give it up.

Not using something for good because it CAN cause dangerous thing to happen through misuse?

Well, let's just say if Malfurion treated Druidism the same way as he did Arcane when it comes to it's misuse (aka, banning it at the first sign of something majorly bad happening) Night Elves wouldn't have druids either.

Illidan agreeing for the time being doesn't invalidate him deciding later that the rest of his life living through that pain wasn't possible.. But again, madness.

But I suppose that's also me putting my take on it. I think Malfurion was beyond foolish to ban Arcane after it was fine for thousands of years because it got misused.

But I suppose that's also me putting my take on it. I think Malfurion was beyond foolish to ban Arcane after it was fine for thousands of years because it got misused.

Well, unfortunately all the responsible kaldorei magic users got slaughtered at the Mennar Academy, so he didn't really have any ready source of insight on that sort of thing - the surviving mages were all former Highborne and Moonguard, both of which were products of Azshara's regime and its standards for arcane magic.

Plus we know Illidan was born with an innate aptitude for druidism (gold eyes and all), which weaned a lot of kaldorei off the arcane post-Sundering. His being too impatient to stick with Cenarius' teachings as a youth alongside Malfurion is kind of his own damned fault.

Well, unfortunately all the responsible kaldorei magic users got slaughtered at the Mennar Academy, so he didn't really have any ready source of insight on that sort of thing - the surviving mages were all former Highborne and Moonguard, both of which were products of Azshara's regime and its standards for arcane magic.

Plus we know Illidan was born with an innate aptitude for druidism (gold eyes and all), which weaned a lot of kaldorei off the arcane post-Sundering. His being too impatient to stick with Cenarius' teachings as a youth alongside Malfurion is kind of his own damned fault.

Pretty sure his own knowledge of arcane gave him that insight.

And, sorry, but not liking and agreeing with a different type of magic is just that. Not liking and agreeing with it. He was happy with Arcane, and that's perfectly fine...as long as it wasn't misused. And it took a MASSIVE effort to misuse it to the point of demons. Like, reshaping the planet massive.

Simply put, Malfurion was a douchebag who let his own biases get the better of him, and Illidan paid the price, and then Illidan being Illidan, made things worse for himself by being almost as big of a douche as his brother.

Also, those "druids" that "weaned" themselves off arcane after WotA? Still actively using Moonwells, which are filled with Arcane. As per Teldrassil leveling quests. Considering these days the Moonwells are linked to the WoE instead of being liquid moonlight like they were in WC3, it's arguable that Illidan remaking the well is the only reason the other magic users didn't have a similar fate.

And, sorry, but not liking and agreeing with a different type of magic is just that. Not liking and agreeing with it. He was happy with Arcane, and that's perfectly fine...as long as it wasn't misused. And it took a MASSIVE effort to misuse it to the point of demons. Like, reshaping the planet massive.

Simply put, Malfurion was a douchebag who let his own biases get the better of him, and Illidan paid the price, and then Illidan being Illidan, made things worse for himself by being almost as big of a douche as his brother.

And Illidan proved himself incapable of not misusing it. As did the Highborne, as did the Shen'dralar, as did Dath'remar's followers, as did basically all of the kaldorei who stubbornly kept using arcane magic after the Sundering.

You don't get to claim 99% of the data available constitutes exceptions to the rule just because you don't like the guy who says it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruinshin

Also, those "druids" that "weaned" themselves off arcane after WotA? Still actively using Moonwells, which are filled with Arcane. As per Teldrassil leveling quests. Considering these days the Moonwells are linked to the WoE instead of being liquid moonlight like they were in WC3, it's arguable that Illidan remaking the well is the only reason the other magic users didn't have a similar fate.

Using them for what?

I see priests use them. Don't really see druids actually using them. Hanging around them at times - since they tend to be fouind in night elf settlements - but not really using them, seeing as Elune's not as much their "thing" as she is for the priests.

And Illidan proved himself incapable of not misusing it. As did the Highborne, as did the Shen'dralar, as did Dath'remar's followers, as did basically all of the kaldorei who stubbornly kept using arcane magic after the Sundering.

You don't get to claim 99% of the data available constitutes exceptions to the rule just because you don't like the guy who says it.

Well, except Illidan DIDN'T prove he was incapable.

If anything, he's consistently been that one guy who DID manage to stay under control and use arcane as he wanted it to be used. From absorbing a Fel Skull to using the eye of Sargeras, the magic always did what HE wanted it to do. It never spiraled out of control.

He wasn't part of the highborn's actions that brought about the demons.

The problem is, most of his "wrong" deeds were seen as wrong from the view of Malfurion. Absorbing fel magic? It was still Illidan, and it shut down a second Dark Portal, saving the war effort. He didn't suffer any drawbacks. It was a social thing that Malfurion found disgusting. Not a misuse of magic.

The Eye of Sargeras was similar. Opposing views (admittidly tainted by Illidan working for KJ, but hey, life was in danger at that point) on what was acceptable. Illidan felt Northrend was worth being destroyed to off the Lich King. Malfurion didn't.

What do we later learn? Well, maybe it WAS an acceptable loss, because as the Scourge is NOW after having had time to build up and reinforce itself, and Arthas growing stronger, well.. We can't NOT have a Lich King on the throne, because zombie apocalypse without something to hold it back

Quote:

Using them for what?

I see priests use them. Don't really see druids actually using them. Hanging around them at times - since they tend to be fouind in night elf settlements - but not really using them, seeing as Elune's not as much their "thing" as she is for the priests.

"rituals" if I recall correctly. It's not gone to far into, except that it's Druids, and not priests, that use them.

If anything, he's consistently been that one guy who DID manage to stay under control and use arcane as he wanted it to be used. From absorbing a Fel Skull to using the eye of Sargeras, the magic always did what HE wanted it to do. It never spiraled out of control.

He wasn't part of the highborn's actions that brought about the demons.

The problem is, most of his "wrong" deeds were seen as wrong from the view of Malfurion. Absorbing fel magic? It was still Illidan, and it shut down a second Dark Portal, saving the war effort. He didn't suffer any drawbacks. It was a social thing that Malfurion found disgusting. Not a misuse of magic.

The Eye of Sargeras was similar. Opposing views (admittidly tainted by Illidan working for KJ, but hey, life was in danger at that point)

And again you're injecting Malfurion into it as your source of contention. Facts be damned; Malfurion's always wrong, so his disagreement with Illidan makes Illidan right. Any argument is highly suspect when instead of being able to clearly support one's cause, one has to bring up the shortcomings of the opposition as proof of why they're in the right.

Hungering for ever more, and more, and more power wasn't a drawback? Kil'jaeden didn't tell Illidan to save the world; he offered more power in exchange for destroying a rogue minion of the Legion, and Illidan eagerly took that offer. Sure, he had a handy explanation on hand when Malfurion strolled up, but that wasn't remotely part of the terms of his agreement with Kil'jaeden - a demon bent on the destruction of Azeroth.

Risking catastrophic damage to Azeroth with the Eye wasn't a drawback? Well we all hate Malfurion, so obviously when he talks about nature and the planet being demolished by the Eye of Sargeras, he couldn't possibly know what he's talking about. He's just out to sabotage his brother and nay-say arcane magic again.

Becoming a paranoid despot abusing the denizens of Outland wasn't a drawback? Well, according to the aforementioned dodges in logic it doesn't make any sense for him to be like that, so "bad writing" and whatnot.

You're practically claiming that what Illidan did was only bad because Malfurion thought it was bad, which is a flimsy excuse pulled right out of Illidan's own mental playbook. "I'd have saved everyone if my stupid brother hadn't come along and stopped me from dooming everyone." It's the worst kind of conspiracy thinking - that everything bad to happen to Illidan was Malfurion's fault.

Oh, and let's not forget - knowing what we know now, Illidan's second attempt to destroy the Frozen Throne - had it succeeded - would have also potentially doomed Azeroth to a global zombie apocalypse, at a time when neither the Horde nor the Alliance were in a position to do anything about it. But there's just no way someone like the Deceiver would have omitted something like that when handing out instructions to his favorite demon hunter, right? There was power to be had, so doing as Kil'jaeden asked without accounting for it likely being a setup was a perfectly reasonable thing to do.

Well, that rather assumes Illidan was in the wrong in Outland, which isn't something I believe.

He took control, and did so by controlling the resources of the planet (or what remained of it). As for the Orc thing, well, as a species they've yet to prove to be anything other than murderous warriors hellbent on destruction and genocide. May as well turn their evil against the Legion. Especially since it's already been established through multiple media sources that the fel blood had little to do with their state of violence (Grom in WC3 AND the Orc who adopted a dreanei kid and chose to remain true to himself after being a fel orc)

After all, it's not like we are not about to have another expansion about how Orcs start murdering and killing at the slightest reason available to them.

He certainly wasn't "nice". But wrong? Considering he was freeing legion soldiers and drawing their ire, he may very well be the reason Shatt isn't a smoking puddle of fel piss.

(Is this a bad time to mention my support for Maiev, partly on the basis that her obsession was based in part of being perhaps too close to her watchers, and so when Tyrande and Illidan killed them, she couldn't see their losses as being merely warriors dying in battle, but her family slaughtered en masse? And in Wolfheart, someone with a strongly held sense of justice is not only being told she's wrong, but that the people she was so strongly against, the "type of people" who kept her prisoner and tortured her, the people her family died trying to prevent being a threat again, are now allowed to walk freely? That's gotta hurt. (I blame Neva being a treacherous good for nothing. Fuck her!)

One must wonder what would've happened had her relationship with Jarod been better, maybe he'd have at least told her a bit about why she was leaving, and then perhaps she wouldn't have felt the need to grow so close to her watchers, and then maybe...)

Well, that rather assumes Illidan was in the wrong in Outland, which isn't something I believe.

He took control, and did so by controlling the resources of the planet (or what remained of it). As for the Orc thing, well, as a species they've yet to prove to be anything other than murderous warriors hellbent on destruction and genocide. May as well turn their evil against the Legion. Especially since it's already been established through multiple media sources that the fel blood had little to do with their state of violence (Grom in WC3 AND the Orc who adopted a dreanei kid and chose to remain true to himself after being a fel orc)

After all, it's not like we are not about to have another expansion about how Orcs start murdering and killing at the slightest reason available to them.

He certainly wasn't "nice". But wrong? Considering he was freeing legion soldiers and drawing their ire, he may very well be the reason Shatt isn't a smoking puddle of fel piss.

I disagree. We don't know how far along the orcs were in corruption before Garrosh intervened (their corruption started when Kil'jaeden contacted Ner'zhul). As such even if the fel blood wasn't drunk the mindset Gul'dan built up was still intact. I think the interpretation was the fel blood amplifies anger rage darkness within someone. They technically did coexist with the draenei for many years and the existence of individuals such as Dranosh Suarfang, Varok Saurfang, Brox, Golluck Rockfist Durotan gorganna grun'holde proves the orcs can't just be treated as some monolithic block. They actually did coexist with the alliance as well before Daelin launched an unprovoked attack. I think WOD may be the thing that forces the orcs to finally come to term with the fact that they were assholes, that they bore a role in their corruption, and thus finally allow them to make real progress. It would be like Japan finally being forced to own up to their war crimes in WW2.

I disagree. We don't know how far along the orcs were in corruption before Garrosh intervened (their corruption started when Kil'jaeden contacted Ner'zhul). As such even if the fel blood wasn't drunk the mindset Gul'dan built up was still intact. I think the interpretation was the fel blood amplifies anger rage darkness within someone. They technically did coexist with the draenei for many years and the existence of individuals such as Dranosh Suarfang, Varok Saurfang, Brox, Golluck Rockfist Durotan gorganna grun'holde proves the orcs can't just be treated as some monolithic block. They actually did coexist with the alliance as well before Daelin launched an unprovoked attack. I think WOD may be the thing that forces the orcs to finally come to term with the fact that they were assholes, that they bore a role in their corruption, and thus finally allow them to make real progress. It would be like Japan finally being forced to own up to their war crimes in WW2.

By and large, aren't those Orcs painted as the exception?

Even with it being recently revealed that most of the Orcs fought against Garrosh, Garry boy had high approval rating from what we are led to believe, before he ate the cocoberries adn started being evil for the sake of evil.

I certainly agree that individual orcs can be heroes, and even be treated as good, competent people who deserve the trust of the most stalwart of heroes....

But that's on an individual scale.

But again, I've long been of the opinion that the Orc's will ALWAYS be the blood thirsty monsters they are simply because they were ripped from the relatively primitive lifestyle and culture and thrown to one more advanced than they were ready for.

They need to be knocked back down to that primitive level, and brought up slowly (but not so slowly as to make them useless in Warcraft... Though, when random orc X can apparently oneshot a fucking ancient with a thrown weapon, I don't see that happening any time soon)

Even with it being recently revealed that most of the Orcs fought against Garrosh, Garry boy had high approval rating from what we are led to believe, before he ate the cocoberries adn started being evil for the sake of evil.

I certainly agree that individual orcs can be heroes, and even be treated as good, competent people who deserve the trust of the most stalwart of heroes....

But that's on an individual scale.

But again, I've long been of the opinion that the Orc's will ALWAYS be the blood thirsty monsters they are simply because they were ripped from the relatively primitive lifestyle and culture and thrown to one more advanced than they were ready for.

They need to be knocked back down to that primitive level, and brought up slowly (but not so slowly as to make them useless in Warcraft... Though, when random orc X can apparently oneshot a fucking ancient with a thrown weapon, I don't see that happening any time soon)

I think things are more complicated. The ors did sort of coexist with the Draenei before Kil'jaeden got involved (and given that spirits DID exist I can see why the orcs fell for it) It was also mentioned that after the cataclysm both sides started fighting over resources. I just find "oh that culture is EVUL" to be simplistic. Rise of the Horde painted a picture that fully went into the bloody history of the rise, yet at the same time showed that magic aside many of the justifications are ones all too depressingly found in real life (i.e. they were plotting against us, we must save our people). One of the orcs who opposed Garrosh (Gar'thok) disliked humans but felt he went too far.

Finally, I feel that being raised in internment camps, while merciful, was still something that raised resentment by taking those who never actually served in the war, beating them, denying them food and water and forcing them to crouch in their own urine and shit would have helped to breed hatred of humanity.

PS Varok mentioned that quite a few older orcs were haunted by their crimes, to the point that some may have killed themselves. The older generation seems to have gotten the lesson.

A form of Misaimed Fandom, when a fandom takes a controversial or downright villainous character and downplays his/her flaws, often turning him/her into an object of desire and/or a victim in the process. This can cause conflicts if the writers are not willing to retool the character to fit this demand.

In fanfiction, they are frequently the love object of the local Mary Sue, who uses the power of love to redeem the character. "I can fix him" is a commonly expressed sentiment among fans of Dracos in Leather Pants. In extreme cases, the affection these characters receive from fans can lead them to forget that they're actually still supposed to be villains. Or, on the flip side, even the worst crossings of the Moral Event Horizon can be rationalized, while any insult from the hero towards the villain is cast as deplorably mean. The writer's attempt to make the villain more "sympathetic" will likely causes them to remove everything that made the character so cool/well liked in the first place.

Hmm. Can this apply to an entire faction or culture?

Quote:

Originally Posted by description for Of Blood and Honor

The noble Paladin, Tirion Fordring, had always believed the savage Orcs to be vile and corrupt. He had spent his life fighting ceaselessly to protect humanity from their foul treachery. But an unexpected act of honor and compassion sets in motion a chain of events that will challenge Tirion's most fundamental beliefs, and force him to decide once and for all who are the men -- and who are the monsters.

Also according to Bashiok on the battle net forums (a vip) most of the orcs fought against garrosh, mostly because they thought his "orcs only" horde was stupid. even if they hated all people they did not hate the tauren blood elves forsaken trolls etc. IF anything that makes sense. they may have first bought into garrosh but after garrosh started to go insane they figured "hey, these guys are our friends, they're part of the team. We can't kill them."

omg the heroine addict just wanted to keep his source, so he betrayed his family, friends country and world. Oh no poor thing no, nooooo he's not evil no and his brother is an asshole for DARING to give him life sentence, yes

Considering Arcane Addiction has been shown to cause physical changes, puss filled boils, people to literally spew bile from the mouth, turn hands to claws, ect, I wouldn't say heroin is a correct comparison.

ESPECIALLY since, prior to the invasion, Illidan and other mages were encouraged to actively delve into it as far and as deep as they could, thus removing a lot of the social stigma that heroin today has.

It's less of a choice and more of a fact of life that got him addicted.

Malfurion himself only was spared it because he had a dislike for Arcane, and warned Azshara against using the well to much, as he was one of her scholars studying the well (or is that RPG again? Hell if I know)

And note, I never said his betrayal was "right". Only that it was much more understandable and did much more to make him a sympathetic character than the WotA stalker creep that we now have.

Ferlion no matter you way you spin the story it boils down "crack addict betrays nation for crack" which was toned down to "pretends to betray nation" in the novels. Wheter you like it or not the resulting illian is a tiny bit better but at the price of furion judgement and illidan's title.

Ferlion no matter you way you spin the story it boils down "crack addict betrays nation for crack" which was toned down to "pretends to betray nation" in the novels. Wheter you like it or not the resulting illian is a tiny bit better but at the price of furion judgement and illidan's title.

"Boils down to" is such a horrible thing.

Because at the end of the day, almost every story boils down to something drab, dull, and uninteresting.

Yes, with everything stripped away, Illidan betrayed his nation for his addiction.

Of course, with everything stripped away, no character has any, well....character.

Illidan was CERTAINLY in the wrong for betraying his people....

Buuut, you know, that doesn't make it any less tragic, or him any less screwed over by his loved ones.