RICHARD AKINJIDE It’s too late for Nigeria to breakup

Second Republic Attorney-General and Minister of Justice, Chief Richard Akinjide, (SAN), is scandalised over the huge sums of money spent running governments in the country today. The legal luminary spoke with Dare Odufowokan on a number of other issues, including agitation for the convocation of a Sovereign National Conference, possibility of disintegration of Nigeria and the Boko Haram challenge. Excerpts:

During the fuel subsidy crisis, you said President Jonathan inherited the problems he faced. Do you think he handled the matter well?

What I said he should do about the matter then was that he should make the greatest sacrifice and I think that is what happened. Like I always said, no form of government compares with democracy. Nobody has ever been able to invent anything better than democracy. Consequently, we must always respect the democratic structures we have. So, because the President was elected by the people, he would have to continue listening to his people and I am glad President Jonathan understands that. Yes, he is a victim of an inherited problem. He didn’t create any of the problems we have today. The fuel subsidy issue has been there for decades with nobody ready to tackle it the way he did. He has not done badly at all. He made the sacrifice and listened to his people. That is very good of him as a leader.

But he waited until the people protested before making the sacrifice.

We are in a democracy. That the people protested is part of democracy. That he listened to them is also part of democracy. What was done was good. If the people say the way it was done was not good enough and as such they protested, well. It is democracy. The process has been corrected and we are moving forward. That is good for the country. I support the policy and I am happy that whatever mistake has been corrected and the people have accepted it.

You also spoke about him listening more to technocrats to the detriment of political considerations…

What I mean is that he should seek the opinion of politicians on the political consequences of government policies. Technocrats are very useful but they don’t understand the political consequence of these policies. So, politicians and not technocrats are needed to understand these things. Look at how the systems operate in America and Britain, and even other developed democracies. Politicians are left to decide on people-related policies not people who do not understand the political implications of such actions. These two sets of people have their different roles to play in the administration.(

As an elder statesman, are you not worried about the persisting state of lawlessness in the country?

Like every patriotic Nigerian, I am worried but what I don’t believe in is this talk about disintegration. I have always said that Nigeria will not disintegrate. This country Nigeria will not break. We should stop promoting this view that our own country will collapse. Nigeria will continue to grow until we become a nation. We have seen worse crisis before. If we didn’t break up then, I think it is too late now for us to break. In the last fifty years, we have become inseparable as a people. Where will the boundaries be if we break up now? Who and who will group together to form what country? What will be the terms of such regrouping? These are the things we must always remember when people talk about disintegration. All great nations of the world had their trying period. Both America and Britain went through crisis. Under Lincoln; America had a very dreadful civil war. In Britain, Cromwell overthrew Richard in 1649 and he was in power till 1660. He suspended the British parliament. Of course you must have read about the German crises. France also had its own challenges with Louis. None of these nations collapsed due to the challenges they faced. So, why should Nigeria collapse? All we need is for the government to remain on top of the situation. I am very sure this nation will survive.

And do you think the federal government is actually on top of the situation given the spate at which violence is freely being perpetrated across the country today?

The violence is part of the challenges we have but I have no doubt that President Jonathan and his team are handling the situation well. I will urge him not to relent at all. We will overcome the current situation. It will all pass away. Our people love their freedom; so, together we will defeat those trying to rob us of our freedom through unnecessary violence in some parts of the country. Democracy is not the same as lawlessness. Nobody should hide under the umbrella of any organisation to unleash violence on the people. It is against the tenets of democracy, so, we will defeat the lawlessness currently in our midst. If we have grievances, I think we should find avenues to discuss such grievances, not take law into our own hands by unleashing mayhem on others. That should not be tolerated. I want the President to continue tackling the menace. Those who are lawless will soon be defeated.

Talking specifically, how do you view the activities of the Boko Haram sect in northern Nigeria?

I have said it before, this thing called Boko Haram is a disaster. It is not good that such a thing should happen to Nigeria at all. But we must find out why this is happening all the same. We cannot say because it has happened we should ignore the danger it poses. We must do everything we can to find out the root causes. It is like a sick person. Before you can treat a sick person, you must find out why the person is sick. A diagnosis is necessary to understand the nature of the sickness. It is only when you know the sickness that you can prescribe the remedies. This is not the first time we will be witnessing violent agitations in this country. What is happening in the North is similar to what happened in the Niger Delta some years back. The politicians in the North made use of those people to win election and after the election; they abandoned them, which I was told was the same thing that gave birth to militants in the Niger Delta. Their agitation was also very violent. A thorough investigation into these cases will no doubt reveal the hands of politicians in the whole mess. That is the cause of the sickness we are talking about. It is after we have addressed that that we can find lasting solution to the problem. But like I said, President Jonathan is handling the matter very well. I think he is trying to address the causes first before prescribing solutions. That is the best way to go.( (

Government wants to negotiate with the sect. how do you see that?

I am fully in support of the dialogue approach. We must jaw-jaw rather than war-war. That is done all over the world. Even governments are negotiating with the most violent people in the Middle East. The only addition here is that such negotiations must be devoid of publicity. We are talking about a security matter; it shouldn’t be discussed on the pages of newspapers. All over the world, such negotiations are done without publicity, sometimes through third party. Yes, they should negotiate with them. There is nothing wrong with that.(

As a former Attorney-General and Minister of Justice, how do you see the judgment of the Supreme Court that sacked five state governors in the country recently?

Well, that is the final judicial pronouncement on that particular matter and it is not to be contested by anybody. It is binding on us all and it must be obeyed. That is why it was implemented with immediate effect. That matter is closed. Nobody can challenge the decision and nobody can raise any issue about it again.

But there was this insinuation that the judgment created confusion in some of the affected states.

Yes, the judgment created confusion. I think it was at the implementation stage. In Kogi, two governors emerged on the day the judgment was delivered. Though it was eventually resolved, there was confusion at first. There is also the issue of which of the party primaries to recognize. In Bayelsa for example, one primary produced former Governor Timipre Sylva while another produced Seriake Dickson. There were one or two other issues in one or two other states. No doubt, there was confusion but it is not for me or anybody to say this is what is right or that is what is wrong. The place to go for clarification remains the court. It is the same judiciary that can clarify the confusion.

The senate recently objected to the call for a Sovereign National Conference. What is your take on this?

I see no need for a Sovereign National Conference. People can call for a conference, yes, there is nothing wrong with that, but a Sovereign National Conference is impossible. Most of these people agitating don’t really know what they are saying. A Sovereign National Conference can only come when there is no government in place. That is when the sovereignty is an issue. But in a situation like this, where we have all arms of governments at all levels in place and functioning, I cannot see any role for another sovereign. There can never be two sovereigns in one country at the same time. People need to understand the meaning of sovereignty. Sovereign means having all the powers as given by the people. It confers the powers to make laws, to make appointments, etc. In fact, it gives the power to rule.

Don’t you think it is that type of conference vested with such powers that can discuss the way forward for our country?

As it is now, we already have a government vested with all these powers. We already have a constitution. It is not that we lack a functioning constitution. So, when we talk about sovereign, we must understand all these things. Dialogue, yes. Conference, yes, but a Sovereign National Conference, No. it is because they don’t know what they are talking about. People can get together and talk about the way forward but such gathering can never be sovereign since we have a government in place already.

But there is the argument that there are some things that only a Sovereign National Conference can do. One example is the need for a people-oriented constitution. What is your reaction to this?

The national assembly has the powers to review the constitution and even make amendments if need be. I think that is what they have started. These lawmakers are elected to represent the people. They are to make laws. They are there to perform legislative functions. If you now say they don’t have the power to amend the constitution, who does? Those saying that don’t know what they are saying. There is no other body saddled with lawmaking in a democracy other than the national assembly. The national assembly is the appropriate body to initiate a constitutional review, not a national conference. Such a conference can only be convened for the purpose of making suggestions and offering advices to the national assembly on how to go about the review. The truth of the matter is that the ultimate power lies with the national assembly and as such, no other body or organ can do that.

There is so much talk about fighting corruption in this country. What have you to say to this?

It is not enough for us to say we have punished those guilty of corruption. We should let the people know how they have been punished. One important thing is that whatever those caught have stolen must be taken away from them and returned to the treasury. It is only when we do this that we can fight corruption. Secondly, those fighting corruption must also be sincere and free from corrupt practices too. We must all be disciplined. Corruption itself is a product of indiscipline. We must be disciplined enough to always apply the law without fear or favour.

Why do you think it is so difficult to fight corruption in government circles?

There is too much money in government nowadays. There is too much oil money. I earned less than a million naira a year as a parliamentarian. That is not even enough for a day nowadays. That is the problem. We must reduce the money we spend in running government. People are earning so much for doing so little. Even national assembly members need to hold more sessions than they are currently holding. They need to work more for the people. The national assembly I know don’t seat on Mondays and Fridays. They need to do more.

You think elected office holders are getting more than they deserve?

Generally, the money we spend on running government is too much. As for the legislators, they are trying but they should spend less. They should sit more. There was even a suggestion that lawmakers should be on part-time. I am in support of that suggestion. They should be on part time so that they can go back to their work when there is nothing for them to do. They should only come around when there is need for them to do so. That way, we may be able to save a lot of money.

Perhaps the country should return to the parliamentary system of government as a way of reducing cost.

I don’t think that is the solution. I was part of those who said parliamentary system should be abolished. The problem is that there is no stability in a parliamentary government. Once there is a vote of no confidence, the government changes. The government can just be removed any time by the parliamentarians. I don’t think that is what we want now. The presidential system is more stable. We have a President elected for four years. No ‘vote of no confidence’ can just wish him away like that. He is there for a specific period. It is not easy to remove him. I still support the presidential system above the parliamentary system.

You are a member of the Peoples Democratic Party (PDP). There appears to be so many crises within the party both in Oyo State and the national level.

There is no party without crises. In Oyo here, we have resolved our differences and we are one family. At the national level, I am sure the President and the national leaders are on top of the situation. It is all part of democracy.