Keycaps relegandable and transparent (even the boddy-part) and RGB-backlight would of course have the most use - if you print the legend in 3 colors on black plasicfoil, you can get enlightend every layer-legend one by a time, depending of the choosen layer (have to get the information of modifier status of course)

Hang on ... keycaps that light up a different legend depending on which modifier key is pressed?

- Regular (inverted-T) arrow keys!- More keys.- Wireless or Bluetooth connectivity (as an add on, or keyboard version).- I really need a flat back, so I can add keyboard feet that are higher than current (laptop legs, for example).Or a flat section in the back, for feet (that are regulable).- Standard size (or different color/options) for the 1st column (+=, tab, caps lock) and last column (_-, etc) so we can use other standard keys or more key options, you may provide. - Change the Function row (small size is OK), because it saves space and are not used much, but the rubber/feel is not good.

I used a Advantage Kinesis for a few months, and then sold it. I am no longer drinking the Kinesis Kool-Aid.

I have 2 huge beefs with the keyboard.

1. The function row is rubberThe main issue here is Esc is used a lot and those rubber buttons suck.

2. The key layout is compromisedIt changed too much such as moving the = button to where ` is suppose to be. I saw the advantage of getting used to the matrix layout and found it easier to type, but moving buttons is highly annoying.

You ran into the problem where the matrix layout made the keyboard asymmetric with way more keys on the right side. This is why you moved the =, [, ], \ keys. This move was too much.

Also I am a programmer and found it way harder to hit key combinations such as Shift+Alt+M. Hitting alt was more awkward than before.

Given these issues, I think a better layout would be:

I know that is a pretty big change, but it would make me try Kinesis again.

What about print screen, scroll lock, and page break? I couldn't care less. I never use them. EVER.

I like the size of the kinesis because it is easy on my elbows and shoulders.

Could actually do with a little bit more left right separattion if the centre space is utilised better.

I was toying with this layout:

The thumb cluster to include the BS/Del Space/Enter as per Kinesis and the escape key double width horizontal on top of the BS/Del. Also at the thumb cluster would be the arrow keys and the PgUp/PgDn and Home/End accessed through a Fn modifier key on top of the arrow keys.

In principle the Function keys could be similarly hidden but it's nice to have the extra keys especially if they can be reprogrammed or layered with macros.

The centre space could easily house an oversized trackball with mouse left right keys reachable with left/right thumbs below the left/right thumb clusters respectively.

If you ask me, one of the great things about the Kinesis keyboard is that control, command, and alt/option keys are all thumb keys, leaving only the shift key for the pinkies. Also, the keys on the bottom row on the Kinesis keyboard are somewhat awkward to press, so it's not a good location to put meta keys. It took me a while to get used to the Kinesis cursor keys, but now that I have, I'm sure I'd rather have them where they are than wasting valuable thumb space. Honestly it's not that hard to adapt to the Kinesis layout.

I like the keywell curvature and keycap shapes as they are. If you rearranged the wells so the same keycap shape was used everywhere while retaining the same positions for the tops of the keycaps, I believe you'd end up with much more keywell curvature, and you might find it impossible, since adjacent swiches can't overlap one another.

Maybe it's just the result of my using Kinesis keyboards for so long, but I consider them quite refined, and not in need of drastic changes. I'd just improve some of the most obvious weaknesses while modernizing it a bit.

Modifier keys should be in the thumb clusters. Moreover the thumb clusters should not have the big (1x2) keys. There should be two standard 1x1 keys instead of each big key (like Maltron). This allows to add Win modifiers and proper layer shifting keys to thumbs.

Modifier keys should be in the thumb clusters. Moreover the thumb clusters should not have the big (1x2) keys. There should be two standard 1x1 keys instead of each big key (like Maltron). This allows to add Win modifiers and proper layer shifting keys to thumbs.

The large thumb buttons are life savers for those of us with thumb dexterity issues.

Correct - it's unlikely we'll have any major external changes, at least initially.

Well, if you at least fix the firmware to support layers properly and add at least two easily accessible* pairs of modifiers (Win keys and LayerShift) then, in my opinion, it is worth considering an upgrade from the current Kinesis Advantage. Bonus points for an option to replace firmware with something open.

* either in thumb clusters or in an additional internal column as ergodox; one pair fits even in far bottom pinkie locations

Somebody mentioned it would be good to lower number of keycap shapes to reduce price. I agree. It is already contoured. The only place where keycaps should be different are thumb clusters. It is important that higher rows have also taller keycaps. But you can achieve this by tilting the thumb cluster even more.

I experimented a bit with one size keycaps for the alpha/numeric keys and the bottom row keycaps probably need to have different shapes (arrow keys, etc.). Still it would certainly reduce the amount of unique keycaps and make things a bit easier, I agree.

I experimented a bit with one size keycaps for the alpha/numeric keys and the bottom row keycaps probably need to have different shapes (arrow keys, etc.).

Right. The missing tilt of the bottom row was the reason I did not get ergodox at the end. I probably would not mind missing tilt of all the other keys in a key well. But I think I would mind if the bottom row was not tilted. I tried to put DSA keycaps on the bottom row of my kinesis and it was OK ... except the pinkie key. I did mind the missing bit of tilt there. But the key wells are already curved. Just tilt the bottom row a bit more and it would do even with DSA. Though that may be more expensive than just using the most common DCS shapes.I also think there is no good reason to have outer pinkie columns a bit wider.

Honestly I think the keywells' curvature should be less pronounced, and the middle finger column less deep.

BTW I put Kinesis blank keycaps on my ergodox to give it a subtle curvature and its pretty good, although the Kinesis bowls do help keep the hands in the right place so I do less typing errors on the Advantage than I do on the ergodox.

The tilt you are talking about actually is a bit tiring because the fingers curl too much to reach the bottom row of the Kinesis, and the motion to actuate them is like pulling something.

Well, rather late. However, I would like to share my ideas, most of them already shared by others:

I am working with the advantage since 10 years now, at work and at home, seldomly even exceeding 100 hrs a week. So I guess I have some experience with that keyboard.

I like the ergonomics, the curvature, distance between left and right dents, the key caps, location and splitting of arrow keys and and the overall appearance and size; not much to be done here. Curvature may even be a bit more pronounced for my taste.

Bluetooth:My dearest suggestion: please, do (additionally!) implement Bluetooth. I am increasingly working with my tablet and mobile phone and I would really like to use my kinesis advantage if there are larger texts to be typed. This happens from time to time and it is getting more, although it is still far less than keyboard usage with my PC.

Real F-Keys:Please do not use rubber for the function keys anymore. If there is a space issue for real function keys, maybe they can surround somehow the dents (F7, F8 besides 5, T) or seldomly used keys like print, scroll lock, pause, keypad and program may be located elsewhere.

Pointing device:I really would fancy to have some kind of pointing device included. Whether this is a touchpad, a track point, a track ball or a roll bar, I have no idea of best implementation and location and leave that to you ergonomic-experts. I personally fancy the idea of having a track point for the right index finger between J and Y, automatically rendering the left-hand home-row keys to mouse buttons when the track point is touched. Well, considering licensing this will remain rather farfetched.

Additional keys:I would like to have further keys for mode switching, e.g. for alternative layouts like NEO. Possibly below both shift keys. There seems to be enough space and that location seems quite reachable by the pinkie. I would love to have additional keys above space and backspace, respectively, to a total of 2*7 thumb-keys in total.

Typing noise:I hardly bottom out anymore, but during start, the keyboard was considerably louder than my old one. Is there any way to add some dampers? I read about work around like O-rings, but it does not seem to complex to include something factory-wise.

Controller update:The controller may use some updating. I would fancy more/larger macros and especially quicker macro responsiveness.

And now some nice to haves, which are not really urgent: -No grooves surrounding the function keys. They are a pain to clean.-Exchange of profiles. I have 3 advantages; it is quite laborious to keep them with identical configurations.-An easily accessible SD-slot at the keyboard might be nice. I hate crawling behind a screen to search for the slot there. -Switching of left- and right-hand side via foot switch. I often work using my left hand for the keyboard and the right hand for the mouse. If a right-hand key is needed, it is a bit annoying moving the mouse hand to the keyboard. This could be prevented by triggering that key via the left hand after electronically switching sides.-Connecting foot switch via socket rather than via breakout cable.-Option to purchase the keyboard directly with unlabelled key caps, more color options.

I used a Advantage Kinesis for a few months, and then sold it. I am no longer drinking the Kinesis Kool-Aid.

I have 2 huge beefs with the keyboard.

1. The function row is rubberThe main issue here is Esc is used a lot and those rubber buttons suck.

2. The key layout is compromisedIt changed too much such as moving the = button to where ` is suppose to be. I saw the advantage of getting used to the matrix layout and found it easier to type, but moving buttons is highly annoying.

You ran into the problem where the matrix layout made the keyboard asymmetric with way more keys on the right side. This is why you moved the =, [, ], \ keys. This move was too much.

Also I am a programmer and found it way harder to hit key combinations such as Shift+Alt+M. Hitting alt was more awkward than before.

Given these issues, I think a better layout would be:

Show Image

I know that is a pretty big change, but it would make me try Kinesis again.

What about print screen, scroll lock, and page break? I couldn't care less. I never use them. EVER.

Are you aware that you can reprogram any key to any location right on the keyboard? If I read your post right, that would solve most of your issues?

And to GLAX:You have some nice, fresh Kinesis ideas, thanks for sharing them. There used to be a link to info with photos in my sig (below) but the article needs to be reconstructed. Some of your new ideas I would like to add to the article and incorporate.

-Switching of left- and right-hand side via foot switch. I often work using my left hand for the keyboard and the right hand for the mouse. If a right-hand key is needed, it is a bit annoying moving the mouse hand to the keyboard. This could be prevented by triggering that key via the left hand after electronically switching sides.

"Normal is the greatest enemy in regard to creating the new. To get around this you have to understand normal not as reality but as just a construct." -- Alan KayDaily driver: Phantom (Lubed Cherry MX Clear, Lasered Cherry PBT keycaps with Row A. Plastic "Frankencase". Custom firmware, Swedish layout)

It's probably too late, but anyway... I've been using the KB500USB-BLK for a few days and here are some of my complaints:

Those 2× thumb keys desperately need stabilizers. I often press the spacebar off center and miss a space as the result.

Mod4/AltGr is too far to be used frequently, especially with my rather short fingers. This might be a deal breaker for me in the end. I absolutely need modifiers that can be pressed by thumbs or palms without moving my wrists... The bottom row on ergodox is good enough. Maybe I'll follow others' footsteps and add some arcade buttons.

I can feel the design sort of forces me to rest my palms on the chassis, which isn't a good thing. Even if I give up and do it, the cushion is said to get awful quickly and I don't want to make the plastic shine.

I don't get why the middle part isn't flat. I could have a trackball there, but I can't...

I've given up on remapping and macros. It's just way too complicated. I only wish it was like on the ergodox instead.

Proper keys instead of gummy bears would be nice, obviously. Especially Esc is too far from the home row for me.

PBT or POM. Please...

The USB hub doesn't have enough power for my flash drive, not a big deal though.

The combination of tenting angle and hand separation doesn't work for me. I'm not sure why, but it feels a bit straining.

You could distribute the keyboard with something to raise the front to get proper negative tilt (like that thing that raises the MS Ergo 4k).

On the other hand, I like

the keywells and "depth" staggering;

surprisingly MX Browns (I hate them otherwise), maybe because of the softer landing (PCB mounting is to blame?) and click emulation that masks the scratchiness for me;

different keycaps on the home position.

I guess I'll go back to the ergodox eventually. No matter how I like those keywells, I need more accessible AltGr (or better two of them, one on each half).

You gotta be kidding about the remapping. It's easy and instant. Once you enter programming mode, you can press source, destination key, one pair after the other, as many as you like and then exit programming mode. Resetting a key is as easy as hitting it twice. Macros are just as easy as well.

But that's it! I can't make layers on kinesis and there aren't enough easily accessible keys for modifiers anyway. That's why it's complicated. I can't think of any key that I could swap with AltGr, at the very least. Swap, that's another problem... I can't separate a key and shift+key.

For the record, the primary layer on my ergodox is below. RAlt and the two bigger thumb keys are the only keys I can hit with my thumb without moving the whole hand.

Thanks for that. Yes, having ability to create layers, shifted keys, saving/modifying layouts on the computer would be great additions to the Kinesis. And extra buttons of course (see my sig for my extra keys mod + arcade buttons).

But its wrong to say its complicated; it's brilliantly simple, just not flexible/powerful enough.

The ergodox IS complicated to remap (and would benefit from an onboard remapping ability) but of course much more powerful (hey, I even added light and audible feedback to it by hacking the source - links in my sig). However having to recompile the firmware just to swap 2 keys is a huge pain (not to mention using either a website, or hacking the source code files to make changes). Ouch. On the Kinesis I can do a macro or a minor remap in 5 seconds.

I'm using both keyboards extensively every single day for a very long time now, love them both, and do agree with your suggestions!

That kind of assumes that the new keyboard will be better than the old one.The old model should still have a price of used keycaps and switches.I can imagine ergodox users going for the keycaps.So it's only a matter of price

That kind of assumes that the new keyboard will be better than the old one.The old model should still have a price of used keycaps and switches.I can imagine ergodox users going for the keycaps.So it's only a matter of price

It also assumes that the target market for a used kinesis is a keyboard enthusiast. For all I know there could be someone willing to buy a bargain of the same ergo he uses at the office fir home.

Will be fun to see how the new models improve from the already awesome product that Kinesis already has successfully managed all these years.

Heard rumors of backlighting, I'm wondering if the RGB Cherry switch may be incorporated. The Cherry site says exclusive to Corsair, but that may be because Corsair is a mass-market item.

From my understanding there is a 1-year lead time on the RGB Cherry key switches

1 year lead time. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!Sounds like the "Matias clear quiet tactile Alps-clone" could be a candidate. But I think both of these clear switches will be using SMD LEDs which may not work out to retrofit a board anyhow.

My suggestion is a model that is as quiet as possible.Others have suggested to fill up the void inside the keyboard and for it to be delivered with preinstalled o-rings. I can imagine to able to work without being an noise nuisance to my surroundings is a top priority for many.

Will be fun to see how the new models improve from the already awesome product that Kinesis already has successfully managed all these years.

Heard rumors of backlighting, I'm wondering if the RGB Cherry switch may be incorporated. The Cherry site says exclusive to Corsair, but that may be because Corsair is a mass-market item.

From my understanding there is a 1-year lead time on the RGB Cherry key switches

Have you guys looks at just doing a surface mount rgb led on the PCB itself? I had tested this myself and it worked out well when you get a small enough surface mount rgb led. Also I talked with Acidfire about it as he is working on one for his board he just puts two of them per key on either side. This works just as well as one on the key. it would likely be cheaper than buying them from cherry.

I didn't know you were doing a new board but please of please let it be backlit with a programable API for the backlight (Like the one I custom built on the forums). I really think this could help with so many things to show layers and other information.

Really really really really would like a split design. I have broad sholders and this would really help getting the right position for me. Also I am guessing this would help sales as the ergodox has been very popular with the split design.

Would be neat to have a clear plastic case

Also for the love of GOD please put actual keys instead of the rubber function keys! I have been using multiple of these boards for ages and everytime I press one (or miss one) I curse the Kinesis name.

I will be the first purchaser of many of these boards.

Also please keep the option open of ordering one without memory. I have to order them without memory for my office.

No no no.. Apple's early '00s keyboards that were transparent get quite disgusting after a while because you can see all the crud and dust that has fallen into the keyboard. Also, any scratches on the surface are much more visible on transparent plastic than opaque.Also, I don't think that regular ABS plastic can be transparent. Apple's transparent keyboards (and computer cases, etc.) were made of polycarbonate which is transparent while being impact-resistant, but more expensive in various ways than ABS.

Also please keep the option open of ordering one without memory. I have to order them without memory for my office.

For security reasons?

« Last Edit: Sun, 09 February 2014, 23:31:31 by Findecanor »

Logged

"Normal is the greatest enemy in regard to creating the new. To get around this you have to understand normal not as reality but as just a construct." -- Alan KayDaily driver: Phantom (Lubed Cherry MX Clear, Lasered Cherry PBT keycaps with Row A. Plastic "Frankencase". Custom firmware, Swedish layout)

It's probably too late, but anyway... I've been using the KB500USB-BLK for a few days and here are some of my complaints:(...)

After 12 weeks, I've formed my final opinion on the keyboard and here go changes that would make it usable for me:

Negative angle. When I put something under the front side, it completely changes the ergonomics for the better, but the keyboard becomes slightly unstable.

Flat empty space in the middle. I've tried to put a trackball or a touchpad there, neither was stable enough.

More modifiers. One key between the thumb cluster and respective keywell (next to the 2x key) on each side, one key under each Shift key. This is absolutely necessary for using non-English (inter)national layouts, because the Alt modifiers are hard to reach, if you need to use them all the time while typing, and so is Esc (thus Caps Lock to Esc remapping). I get that there are foot switches, but they slow me down in my experience.

Optional (e.g. on the Pro version) customizable firmware like TMK. Extra layers and dual-role modifiers would help with the previous point too.

Lower-priority features would be

Materials more resistant to sweat, especially on the keycaps (but case as well).

Arcade buttons on the edges of the palm rest.

Another row of proper keys instead of gummy bears.

Independently positionable halves.

Detacheable cables, especially the foot switch cable is annoying when not used.

Now I have to decide, whether I mod my kinesis heavily, or just live without curved keywells.

I think the keywells beat the ergonomic ass of the ergodox.If Kinesis ever releases a keyboard split like the ergodox, with real keys (non eraser like ones) it would sell way more than the ergodox does... heck, they can even sell it as a kit!

I like the ergodox a lot, lots of potential there. But talking about ergonomics, I prefer the kinesis a lot more. Since I do have carpal tunnel, I can say that the kinesis is way softer in my hands than the ergodox, and the thumb buttons are closer and more friendly. If i could just split my kinesis advantage, I would not be typing on an ergodox every other day.

I like the ergodox a lot, lots of potential there. But talking about ergonomics, I prefer the kinesis a lot more.

Same here. Both kinesis and ergodox are lacking. But kinesis is somewhat better. So I'm still using my old Advantage keyboard. I too consider thumb cluster to be far away on ergodox. And I mind a lot that the bottom row is not tilted. I probably could do with other rows not being tilted.

I started a bastard child of the two. That would be the ideal keyboard for me. Maybe I'll have it done by the end of the year. Or not. It depends on how much free time I will have.