Something is missing at the top of the flagpole outside the town hall in Arenys de Munt. Despite a law requiring it, the red and yellow of la Rojigualda - Spain's national ensign - is nowhere to be seen. Something else is missing inside the building itself. On the walls of Josep Manuel Ximenis's office a blank space marks the spot where a portrait of King Juan Carlos would normally hang.

But both these absences are a badge of honour for Mayor Ximenis. Instead he proudly displays a certificate declaring his town to be a "free and sovereign territory of Catalonia", independent of the Bourbon crown and the symbols of the Spanish state.

It may not be legally binding or even recognised outside of the municipal limits but it represents the strength of the desire for nationhood that is growing across Catalonia and has set the wealthy region on a collision course with Madrid this weekend.

Three years ago last September, Arenys de Munt, a picturesque town of 8,500 people 28 miles north of Barcelona, held an informal referendum on whether Catalonia should secede from Spain. Forty-one per cent of residents turned out to vote and an overwhelming 96 per cent of them said yes.

"At the time we simply wanted to start the debate, to show it wasn't just a minority of extremists calling for the impossible," explains Mr Ximenis. The plebiscite - emblematic, partial and unofficial - was repeated in the months that followed in 553 towns and villages across Catalonia. Although marked by a low turnout, it showed overwhelmingly the appetite for independence.

"We started the ball rolling, it gained momentum, and just look at where we are now. An independent Catalonia isn't just an impossible dream, it's going to happen and it's going to happen soon."

On Saturday, Catalans goes to the polls to choose a new parliament, but with the expectation that a referendum on independence for the region will be swift to follow. Artur Mas, the incumbent regional president and leader of the centre-Right Convergence and Union Party (CIU), called the snap elections with the promise that if re-elected, he would see it as a mandate to hold a vote on secession within his term of office.

Emboldened by a pro-independence demonstration that saw 1.5?million people take to the streets on Catalonia's national day on September 11, Mas shifted his party's official position on independence and said, "Let the people decide".

His speeches at campaign rallies across the region in the lead-up to the vote have been greeted by supporters with feverish choruses of "Independence! Independence!" It is music to the ears of Ximenis, who says such separatist sentiment has been simmering in the hearts of Catalans for centuries.

"Catalonia is a nation, we have our own language, our own culture, our own history," said the 50-year-old as a preamble to a brief precis of the repression of the Catalan people from the 1714 War of Succession to the years under Francisco Franco, when just speaking Catalan could result in a jail term. "Yet still we are treated as an occupied colony by Madrid and our resources exploited," he said.

Indeed, it is the current economic climate that has fuelled the independence movement and the conviction that Catalonia would fare better on its own. The long-held bone of contention is that Catalonia, the wealthiest of Spain's 17 semi-autonomous regions, whose industry accounts for a fifth of Spain's GDP, is taxed unfairly by Madrid.

The Generalitat, as Catalonia's government is known, calculates that it pays about euros 15billion more than it gets back from the national treasury every year. Catalonia wants to collect its own taxes, to control how they are spent and it seems prepared to break away from Spain to do so.

But with a clear road map yet to be outlined, the process of separating from Spain promises to be burdened with hurdles. While Catalans prize their role as citizens of Europe, EU officials have warned that membership of the union would not be automatic.

Instead, Catalonia would have to gain admission, joining the queue of a list of new European nations seeking membership, and the process would likely be blocked by a vengeful Spain.

There are also fears that big businesses and multinationals within the region could relocate, unprepared to risk a change in trade terms. Critics warn of a damaging boycott of Catalan goods by Spain if independence were to go ahead. For the Catalans, like the Scots, who will vote on independence in 2014, it's unchartered territory.

In Madrid, the central government of Mariano Rajoy has pledged to fight any move towards independence. There are fears that fellow separatists in the Basque region and even Galicia will follow suit, provoking a constitutional crisis. One association of retired and active members of the military even warned that war should be declared on Catalonia if the region broke away and others have suggested Mas should be tried for treason.

Sunday's vote comes at a time when Rajoy is trying to show stability and fiscal responsibility in his fight to keep Spain in the euro currency zone and avoid an international bail-out, while the nation suffers a double-dip recession and a 25% unemployment rate. But the trials of central government are its own problem according to many in Arenys de Munt, where scarlet and gold striped flags of Catalonia flutter from balconies.

Sonia, a 35-year-old meeting a group of other mothers for a coffee before picking up their children at the school gates, summed it up. "We're sick of being robbed. We'll be better off on our own."

There is some dissent. One middle aged man would not allow his name to be used when interviewed. "The independence issue is a nonsense and a distraction," he said. "We should be discussing how we are going to stop the flood of unemployment, survive deep spending cuts and promote economic growth."

But his is not a popular voice here. That of Jeroni Mayne, 63, a retired financial consultant pushing his nine-month-old twin granddaughters, is. "In my heart I've always felt Catalan, never ever Spanish," he said. "We are on the verge of an important and proud moment in our history." Nodding towards the sleeping girls he added: "They will grow up in Catalonia, an independent country recognised across the world, and it will be great."

The Fed is NOT safe from audit, Trump has said he wants to audit the fed and we may have some bills coming up soon.

Trump is helping Rand pass his healthcare plan, if you think Trump actually supported RyanCare then you are foolish and you need to go read the threads where I addressed this topic. Rand was talking to Trump 2-3 times a week, and Rand told Trump straight up it wasn't going to pass, it didn't have the votes. Trump knew it wasn't going to pass, so he supported it to make sure it was all Paul Ryan's failure and none of it could be blamed on him. Trump hates Paul Ryan.

Trump is going to help save Syria, with Russia's help.

Originally Posted by Mordan

It is not about brainwashing. You can support Trump for practical reasons. I think Danno is right about the Syria missile strikes helping Trump politically in the US. The media stopped talking about the sickening russian narrative. Proof again it was just a hoax to manipulate the public opinion.

Trump made a good call as a politician. Libertarian souls can bitch all they want about principles and being conned. Trump is going to disappointed again. I have enough hairchest.

BARCELONA, Spain (Reuters) - Four separatist parties in Spain's Catalonia looked set to win a majority in regional elections on Sunday, partial results showed, but the main one was on course to lose some seats, possibly undermining its bid to call an independence referendum.

With a quarter of votes counted, the ruling Convergence and Union alliance, or CiU, was winning 47 seats in the 135-seat local parliament, well down from its current 62 seats.

The separatist Republican Left, or ERC, was winning 21 seats, with two other smaller separatist parties taking a total of 15 seats, giving the four parties 60 percent between them.

The Fed is NOT safe from audit, Trump has said he wants to audit the fed and we may have some bills coming up soon.

Trump is helping Rand pass his healthcare plan, if you think Trump actually supported RyanCare then you are foolish and you need to go read the threads where I addressed this topic. Rand was talking to Trump 2-3 times a week, and Rand told Trump straight up it wasn't going to pass, it didn't have the votes. Trump knew it wasn't going to pass, so he supported it to make sure it was all Paul Ryan's failure and none of it could be blamed on him. Trump hates Paul Ryan.

Trump is going to help save Syria, with Russia's help.

Originally Posted by Mordan

It is not about brainwashing. You can support Trump for practical reasons. I think Danno is right about the Syria missile strikes helping Trump politically in the US. The media stopped talking about the sickening russian narrative. Proof again it was just a hoax to manipulate the public opinion.

Trump made a good call as a politician. Libertarian souls can bitch all they want about principles and being conned. Trump is going to disappointed again. I have enough hairchest.

“One may come to the aid of another being unlawfully arrested, just as he may where one is being assaulted, molested, raped or kidnapped. Thus it is not an offense to liberate one from the unlawful custody of an officer, even though he may have submitted to such custody, without resistance.” (Adams v. State, 121 Ga. 16, 48 S.E. 910).

The central government is going to do everything possible to block a referendum on independence. Even if there is one, it will most likely not pass. Catalans aren't even a majority in Catalunya.

They have a struggle no doubt.

Originally Posted by misterx

Yeah, I like cops. They keep the streets safe. Get over it.

“

Originally Posted by dannno

The Fed is NOT safe from audit, Trump has said he wants to audit the fed and we may have some bills coming up soon.

Trump is helping Rand pass his healthcare plan, if you think Trump actually supported RyanCare then you are foolish and you need to go read the threads where I addressed this topic. Rand was talking to Trump 2-3 times a week, and Rand told Trump straight up it wasn't going to pass, it didn't have the votes. Trump knew it wasn't going to pass, so he supported it to make sure it was all Paul Ryan's failure and none of it could be blamed on him. Trump hates Paul Ryan.

Trump is going to help save Syria, with Russia's help.

Originally Posted by Mordan

It is not about brainwashing. You can support Trump for practical reasons. I think Danno is right about the Syria missile strikes helping Trump politically in the US. The media stopped talking about the sickening russian narrative. Proof again it was just a hoax to manipulate the public opinion.

Trump made a good call as a politician. Libertarian souls can bitch all they want about principles and being conned. Trump is going to disappointed again. I have enough hairchest.

Exit polls from elections in Spain's northeastern region of Catalonia show the majority of local parliamentary seats will go to nationalist parties that favor independence from Spain.

Early returns from Sunday's vote show the national alliance of incumbent regional president and pro-independence candidate Artur Mas has taken at least 48 seats in the 135-seat parliament, down from its current total of 62. The separatist Republican Left (ERC) doubled its share to around 20 seats.

Both parties have pledged to hold a referendum asking Catalans if they wish to split from Spain, a move the central government says would be unconstitutional.

The Socialist party (PSC), which does not favor independence, took 25 seats in the vote.

The Mas government called early elections as part of a power struggle with the central government run by Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy.

Catalonia, which is home to factories, banks and other industries, is responsible for around one-fifth of Spain's economic output.

Many Catalans believe the central government gives back too little, considering the region's contributions.

Now if Americans could only get this excited about independence from central authority.....

Last edited by Origanalist; 11-25-2012 at 05:56 PM.

Originally Posted by misterx

Yeah, I like cops. They keep the streets safe. Get over it.

“

Originally Posted by dannno

The Fed is NOT safe from audit, Trump has said he wants to audit the fed and we may have some bills coming up soon.

Trump is helping Rand pass his healthcare plan, if you think Trump actually supported RyanCare then you are foolish and you need to go read the threads where I addressed this topic. Rand was talking to Trump 2-3 times a week, and Rand told Trump straight up it wasn't going to pass, it didn't have the votes. Trump knew it wasn't going to pass, so he supported it to make sure it was all Paul Ryan's failure and none of it could be blamed on him. Trump hates Paul Ryan.

Trump is going to help save Syria, with Russia's help.

Originally Posted by Mordan

It is not about brainwashing. You can support Trump for practical reasons. I think Danno is right about the Syria missile strikes helping Trump politically in the US. The media stopped talking about the sickening russian narrative. Proof again it was just a hoax to manipulate the public opinion.

Trump made a good call as a politician. Libertarian souls can bitch all they want about principles and being conned. Trump is going to disappointed again. I have enough hairchest.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Origanalist again.

Don't you wish teh gubmint was as stingy with the free money as RPF's?

Originally Posted by misterx

Yeah, I like cops. They keep the streets safe. Get over it.

“

Originally Posted by dannno

The Fed is NOT safe from audit, Trump has said he wants to audit the fed and we may have some bills coming up soon.

Trump is helping Rand pass his healthcare plan, if you think Trump actually supported RyanCare then you are foolish and you need to go read the threads where I addressed this topic. Rand was talking to Trump 2-3 times a week, and Rand told Trump straight up it wasn't going to pass, it didn't have the votes. Trump knew it wasn't going to pass, so he supported it to make sure it was all Paul Ryan's failure and none of it could be blamed on him. Trump hates Paul Ryan.

Trump is going to help save Syria, with Russia's help.

Originally Posted by Mordan

It is not about brainwashing. You can support Trump for practical reasons. I think Danno is right about the Syria missile strikes helping Trump politically in the US. The media stopped talking about the sickening russian narrative. Proof again it was just a hoax to manipulate the public opinion.

Trump made a good call as a politician. Libertarian souls can bitch all they want about principles and being conned. Trump is going to disappointed again. I have enough hairchest.

If Catalonia gains independance, Spain will face the ugly task of asking the ECB for even more money after 20% of its GDP got up and walked out. These are things they should have considered before making a deal with the devil, who goes by the name EU over there.

"Perfect safety is not the purpose of government." - Ron Paul

Originally Posted by brushfire

"I was in the rain forest once, and it rained on me..."

Originally Posted by Carson

Ron Paul suggested a very good first step to the process of restoring sound money... It was beautiful. It left them all standing with their fiats out.

Originally Posted by acptulsa

'Excuse us, we'll be leaving now. Oh, and you don't mind if we just steal this Constitution before we go? You @#$%s aren't using it anyway...'

If Catalonia gains independance, Spain will face the ugly task of asking the ECB for even more money after 20% of its GDP got up and walked out. These are things they should have considered before making a deal with the devil, who goes by the name EU over there.

They could survive even if they lost 20% of GDP, the problem is that Catalunya gives over 8% of its GDP in taxes to other regions that it doesn't see back, it amounts to more than $21 billion per year. THAT would crush Spain.

The central government is going to do everything possible to block a referendum on independence. Even if there is one, it will most likely not pass. Catalans aren't even a majority in Catalunya.

If it does pass, can the Catalans ethnically cleanse all of the non-Catalans? It is a Catalan state isn't it?

Twitter: B4Liberty@USAB4L"Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
"Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Corporate-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
"Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
"Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

If it does pass, can the Catalans ethnically cleanse all of the non-Catalans? It is a Catalan state isn't it?

It is, and I would hate to see a great thing get ugly. I don't really think that is what this is about, but it's not exactly unheard of is it?

Originally Posted by misterx

Yeah, I like cops. They keep the streets safe. Get over it.

“

Originally Posted by dannno

The Fed is NOT safe from audit, Trump has said he wants to audit the fed and we may have some bills coming up soon.

Trump is helping Rand pass his healthcare plan, if you think Trump actually supported RyanCare then you are foolish and you need to go read the threads where I addressed this topic. Rand was talking to Trump 2-3 times a week, and Rand told Trump straight up it wasn't going to pass, it didn't have the votes. Trump knew it wasn't going to pass, so he supported it to make sure it was all Paul Ryan's failure and none of it could be blamed on him. Trump hates Paul Ryan.

Trump is going to help save Syria, with Russia's help.

Originally Posted by Mordan

It is not about brainwashing. You can support Trump for practical reasons. I think Danno is right about the Syria missile strikes helping Trump politically in the US. The media stopped talking about the sickening russian narrative. Proof again it was just a hoax to manipulate the public opinion.

Trump made a good call as a politician. Libertarian souls can bitch all they want about principles and being conned. Trump is going to disappointed again. I have enough hairchest.

It is, and I would hate to see a great thing get ugly. I don't really think that is what this is about, but it's not exactly unheard of is it?

Yes, it seems to be the rule rather than the exception. Often, the first thing that people decide to do with their new found separatism is to attack other groups. Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Kashmir and portions of the ex-Soviet Union are all examples. Of course that strife may be just as much by design (by outside forces) as by human nature. Hopefully violence will not occur in Catalonia for any reason.

Twitter: B4Liberty@USAB4L"Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
"Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Corporate-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
"Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
"Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

Secession makes the other EU states nervous because they have their own regions that could take it up. Bretony and Corsica in France, the Po region of Italy, Flanders in Belgium.

Of course, nothing will $#@! up a good statists day like serious talk about Secession.

Originally Posted by misterx

Yeah, I like cops. They keep the streets safe. Get over it.

“

Originally Posted by dannno

The Fed is NOT safe from audit, Trump has said he wants to audit the fed and we may have some bills coming up soon.

Trump is helping Rand pass his healthcare plan, if you think Trump actually supported RyanCare then you are foolish and you need to go read the threads where I addressed this topic. Rand was talking to Trump 2-3 times a week, and Rand told Trump straight up it wasn't going to pass, it didn't have the votes. Trump knew it wasn't going to pass, so he supported it to make sure it was all Paul Ryan's failure and none of it could be blamed on him. Trump hates Paul Ryan.

Trump is going to help save Syria, with Russia's help.

Originally Posted by Mordan

It is not about brainwashing. You can support Trump for practical reasons. I think Danno is right about the Syria missile strikes helping Trump politically in the US. The media stopped talking about the sickening russian narrative. Proof again it was just a hoax to manipulate the public opinion.

Trump made a good call as a politician. Libertarian souls can bitch all they want about principles and being conned. Trump is going to disappointed again. I have enough hairchest.

There's an independence movement or autonomy movement or unification movement in every single European country. That's what happens when bloodshed/conquest determines the borders of countries rather than individual peoples.

and let's not forget the Kurds, Assyrians, southern Arabs of Iran, etc in the Middle East, or the hundreds of possible new African nations, or better yet - a free and independent QUEBEC!

There's an independence movement or autonomy movement or unification movement in every single European country. That's what happens when bloodshed/conquest determines the borders of countries rather than individual peoples.

and let's not forget the Kurds, Assyrians, southern Arabs of Iran, etc in the Middle East, or the hundreds of possible new African nations, or better yet - a free and independent QUEBEC!

My French professor supports independence for Quebec.

"Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot,
nothing is going to get better. It's not." - Dr. Seuss, from The Lorax

...Catalonia would have to gain admission [to the EU], joining the queue of a list of new European nations seeking membership, and the process would likely be blocked by a vengeful Spain.

What the hell is wrong with people? "I want my small country to be run by a large group of other countries! Hurrah!"

(the queue of a list? Editor, puhleez!)

Last edited by angelatc; 11-26-2012 at 12:59 AM.

* Enforce Border Security – America should be guarding her own borders and enforcing her own laws instead of policing the world and implementing UN mandates.

* No Amnesty - The Obama Administration’s endorsement of so-called “Comprehensive Immigration Reform,” granting amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants, will only encourage more law-breaking.

* Abolish the Welfare State – Taxpayers cannot continue to pay the high costs to sustain this powerful incentive for illegal immigration. As Milton Friedman famously said, you can’t have open borders and a welfare state.

* End Birthright Citizenship – As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be granted U.S. citizenship, we’ll never be able to control our immigration problem.

That's one way to shrink the size of government, shrink the size of the country. Keep dividing it up till it's the size of a county or smaller.

Last edited by Henry Rogue; 11-26-2012 at 08:41 AM.

Originally Posted by BuddyRey

Do you think it's a coincidence that the most cherished standard of the Ron Paul campaign was a sign highlighting the word "love" inside the word "revolution"? A revolution not based on love is a revolution doomed to failure. So, at the risk of sounding corny, I just wanted to let you know that, wherever you stand on any of these hot-button issues, and even if we might have exchanged bitter words or harsh sentiments in the past, I love each and every one of you - no exceptions!

The Fed is NOT safe from audit, Trump has said he wants to audit the fed and we may have some bills coming up soon.

Trump is helping Rand pass his healthcare plan, if you think Trump actually supported RyanCare then you are foolish and you need to go read the threads where I addressed this topic. Rand was talking to Trump 2-3 times a week, and Rand told Trump straight up it wasn't going to pass, it didn't have the votes. Trump knew it wasn't going to pass, so he supported it to make sure it was all Paul Ryan's failure and none of it could be blamed on him. Trump hates Paul Ryan.

Trump is going to help save Syria, with Russia's help.

Originally Posted by Mordan

It is not about brainwashing. You can support Trump for practical reasons. I think Danno is right about the Syria missile strikes helping Trump politically in the US. The media stopped talking about the sickening russian narrative. Proof again it was just a hoax to manipulate the public opinion.

Trump made a good call as a politician. Libertarian souls can bitch all they want about principles and being conned. Trump is going to disappointed again. I have enough hairchest.

Love it! A string of peaceful secessions around the globe, followed by an economic crisis in the US that hobbles Federal power, and we just "might" be able to split off a few free republics from the evil empire without a civil war.

The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.

Would a seceded Catalonia still be party to any agreements and treaties to which Spain is?

Will and independent Catalonia bear some proportion of Spain's national debt? If not, why not? If so, why, and more importantly, how much? How is it calculated?

Were I the Catalonians, I would tell Spain to take their debt and shove it. I would tell the world bankers to $#@! off.n Dangerous, but that's never stopped me before.

"The fact is that the average man's love of liberty is nine-tenths imaginary, exactly like his love of sense, justice and truth. Liberty is not a thing for the great masses of men. It is the exclusive possession of a small and disreputable minority, like knowledge, courage and honor. It takes a special sort of man to understand and enjoy liberty - and he is usually an outlaw in democratic societies."-- H.L. Mencken