If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Re: [Round 2 - Team 1 vs Team 12 Singles 1] Tezuka vs Fuji

If you leave out TMnK then you've to leave Fuji's power at the end of POT, which is what I did but others were arguing Fuji could've gotten better while leaving TMnK out of Tezuka's arsenal.

Ohhh I get what happened here.
Read the rules bro.
We are doing Fuji all the way up til now, and Tezuka all the way up til now excluding TMnK.
This is because TMnK is the equivalent to Supersaiyan.

So with everything they have without Tezuka's TMnK, they are equal. But ZSS is the defining advantage.

Originally Posted by Phantron

I
Closed Eyes was used when Fuji was down 5-1 and at that point it wouldn't matter because he can't return 0th Serve whether his eyes are open or not. You can't say 'what if he starts in that form' because that's never been shown to happen. The two instances he used Closed Eyes are all toward the end of the match, but if Tezuka is ahead at the end of the match and he hasn't wasted his 4 0th Serves then it wouldn't matter at all.

Really makes little sense. That was when Fuji hadn't mastered Closed Eyes yet.
Fuji has now mastered Closed Eyes and can hit Cord Balls at the same time.

Tezuka cannot get a point off of CE + Cord Ball on Fuji's serve.

Originally Posted by Phantron

The clone Tezuka returned the 5th counter cleanly (shows him hitting deep in the opposite corner for the 5-4), so no reason the real Tezuka can't do the same. Tezuka has no particular dependence on hitting cord balls. We don't know why Shiraishi hits cord balls against the 5th counter (either he can barely get the ball over or he thought it's actually a good idea), but Tezuka has no such limitations.

Shiraishi hit cord balls against 5th Counter because he was unable to return it cleanly.
Did you not see the desperation in Shiraishi's face? Go and re-watch that episode or re-read it.

Shirashi was helpless for 3straight games. He gradually hit it higher and higher on the net til it tipped over the net.
Shiraishi cannot hit Cord Balls on demand like Fuji as far as we the readers are concerned.

Neither can Tezuka. We have never seen him hit Cord Balls in succesion on demand.
Don't know where your reasoning is coming from.

Again I'm really amazed why people think cloned Tezuka going 5-1 on Fuji is supposed to be a sign that Fuji is a match for the real Tezuka, especially when Fuji also said the cloned Tezuka isn't anywhere as strong as the real one, and yet that clone was blowing him out 5-1.

This was all before Fuji brought out Closed Eyes and Cord Ball.
This was all before we watched him nullify Tezuka Phantom, Hyakku Ren Jitoku no Kiwami and Saiki Kanpatsu no Kiwami with his Closed Eyes and unreadable Cord Balls.

Re: [Round 2 - Team 1 vs Team 12 Singles 1] Tezuka vs Fuji

I don't think it's fair to use characters up to NPOT without including TMnK especially since you don't actually have any idea how much Fuji improved (but presumably he did). That'd obviously be a pretty big disadvantage to Tezuka since TMnK was his major improvement between POT and NPOT. But if we go that path...

Fuji's style seems to be playing from a position of behind and he gets stronger when he's in a position of duress. You can't just say 'before training he only used Closed Eyes for two games but after training he can use it the whole time' because there's no way to prove or disprove that. Sure if Fuji starts out closed eye the whole time, he'd probably beat Tezuka very comfortably with TMnK disallowed. Note that Fuji only used Closed Eyes for two games against Niou, implying there's probably some kind of restriction on the move anyway. The cord ball is pretty much irrelevent as a random 3rd court fodder guy can hit cord balls almost at will. In the cloned Tezuka versus Fuji game, it seems to imply Tezuka Zone can also affect the ball on the front/back axis (there was a scene Tezuka smashed the ball, Fuji returned it with 2nd counter, and then Tezuka just sucked the ball back with Tezuka Zone even though the ball is clearly behind him).

The problem with Fuji's style is that the 0th serve is unreturnable, so you can't just get into a position of duress and come back because Fuji cannot return the 0th serve. If Tezuka is serving with 5-4 or better lead there's no way Fuji can win and we'll assume Tezuka correctly saves his serves only when victory is certain. While Tezuka is someone who is at 100% all the time, Fuji seems to take some time to warm up before his full potential can be realized (seems like duress awakens his competitive fire, or something along these lines) but you can't be in a position of duress against Tezuka as he'll just destroy you with his unreturnable moves.

At the nationals, it's said that Shiraishi is a tier above Fuji in all aspects. We know from NPOT that Tezuka has a higher base stat than Shiraishi, so by the transitive property we can assume Tezuka has a higher base stat than Fuji (not really all that surprising, really). Because the clone Tezuka has a 5-1 stretch against Fuji at nationals, we'll assume Tezuka still starts out as a better baseline player, so Tezuka is not expected to play from a position of being behind so we'll assume he'll get to 5 games before Fuji does. We can't factor in any new moves Fuji might learn because there is absolutely no information on them.

Now the question is how much ahead would Tezuka be ahead by? If you assume the scientific super training at U17 helps guys with lower stats compared to guys with already high stats more (it's generally harder to improve when you already start with high stats), then the baseline difference in the stats at U17 should be lower between Tezuka and Fuji compared to at nationals. For example if the score was 5-4 with Fuji serving, at that point he can use his Closed Eyes for two games and be up 6-5, or at worst be down 5-6 if Tezuka uses 0th serve during his serve and you might even say Fuji have an edge here even at 5-6 because he's the kind of guy who gets better under duress while Tezuka's power level is very constant (he doesn't hold back, so he has no hidden powerups to dig into either).

That said you still have the problem of whether Fuji can return the Phantom. #9 and #10 in the G10 can't return it. Intuitively, the 4th counter seems like it ought to work on the Phantom since it's very similar to Rin, but that wasn't what happened in the nationals between Niou and Fuji. A possible explanation might be that Rin can cancel out more spin compared to the 4th counter, but in that case we'd have no idea if an improved Fuji can cancel enough spin on Phantom to return it. It seems like he ought to be able to, but the only source of information we have says otherwise. If Fuji can't return the Phantom he'd have no chance. I went back and check the manga. The Phantom has a very distinctive vortex effect and Niou used it only once (to win the 1-3 game) and never again, so Fuji was never able to counter it in the one time Niou used it. Phantom is a higher tier move compared to even the first two doors, since Rai alone can counter both doors but Rai cannot beat Phantom. I say Rai can beat both doors because if Pinnacle of Great Wisdom is really just seeing the future then all you'd see is like: "Sanada is going to use Rai to hit to this spot, I'll try to return it but it'll blow my racket away... wow that sucks". Fuji's limit is around Rai level of techniques, which is pretty good, but Tezuka has two moves that are above Rai in terms of power. The three doors of Muga are more like the strongest moves you can learn without self mutiliation, so beating the first two doors is impressive but it's not the end all be all of techniques.

At the nationals, it's said that Shiraishi is a tier above Fuji in all aspects. We know from NPOT that Tezuka has a higher base stat than Shiraishi, so by the transitive property we can assume Tezuka has a higher base stat than Fuji (not really all that surprising, really).

At the Nationals Semifinals.
This is at the U-17 Camp now.
Nationals!Shiraishi could only tip the ball over the net against 5th Counter, and 6th Counter is the shot that only works against Cord Balls and is basically unreturnable.
Konomi wanted it that Fuji finished PoT all on the Top tier guys level.
He didnt know the fans would put PoT in massive demand and that he would give us a sequel.

And Fuji is better than old No.9 and old No.10 in Singles.
You can find the discussion on here. It's not relevant right now.

I also don't want to explain to you a nth time that Tezuka without TMnK only has ZSS that can work against Fuji.

I can only guess maybe the Anime has a different sequence of events but just that's not what happened in the manga. Here's the 5-4 game sequence:

Niou predicted score after 6 rallies.
Fuji used Closed Eyes to defeat the prediction.
Fuji wins 2 more games and get the score to 6-5.

Now you seem to assume that clone Tezuka was using Phantom on top of the prediction, but that makes no sense. If you're making a prediction with the Phantom, it'd simply be "3 rallies" every single time. That is, Tezuka serves, Fuji returns, Tezuka applies Phantom, Fuji hits it out of bounds. He can't be predicting Phantom getting returned safely because Phantom itself isn't hard to hit back, so if he can forsee that Phantom getting returned it'd be a repeat of the self-mutiliation sequence of Phantom versus Rin played 2 matches ago. The frames on Niou does not show the distinctive vortex effect for Phantom in the sequence of events between 5-4 and 5-6, but it does show him using the first two doors interchangeably. I've no problem with Fuji able to defeat the first two doors as that's an equivalent of Rai level of power, but that's why the real Tezuka can use Phantom.

You're also making the assumption that because certain guys probably has to win in any game they get into in the manga that this somehow means they're also correspondingly that powerful. It's hard to see Fuji losing if he does get a game at all given his popularity but this doesn't mean he is supposed to be more powerful as a baseline player. Ryoma almost certainly wouldn't lose whatever matchup he get against a G10 too but it doesn't mean his base stat is supposed to be higher than a G10. And Ryoma at least can hit 10 balls at the same time. Fuji has done absolutely nothing, and in such hypothetical matchup you can't count on the plot bailouts as part of the character power.

Re: [Round 2 - Team 1 vs Team 12 Singles 1] Tezuka vs Fuji

I don't think these discussion is supposed to be like: "If X played Y in the next chapter of NPOT who would win." You can simply look up the character popularity chart (check the Valentine chocolate list, for example), and for example Atobe will be heavily favored against fighting the entire G10 at the same time if this hypothetical match occurred. He'd probably just shoot laser beams from his eyes and kill the G10 instantly and won because he's a runaway fan favorite.

Fuji has a considerable edge on Tezuka in terms of popularity, so given POT almost always caters to the most popular characters he'd be a heavy favorite against Tezuka if the match took place in POT. It's no different than how Ryoma never loses any official match by the virtue of being the main character. If you want to argue like that, just read the Valentine chocolate list and throwing out characters that are too fringe to appear, the order of power would Atobe, Ryoma, Hirakoba, Sanada, Yukimura, Kite, and Fuji. Heck, you can see that in the current NPOT, how Kite went from a borderline nobody character to someone who seems likely to make #7 or #8 on the G10.

Re: [Round 2 - Team 1 vs Team 12 Singles 1] Tezuka vs Fuji

Originally Posted by Phantron

Niou predicted score after 6 rallies.
Fuji used Closed Eyes to defeat the prediction.
Fuji wins 2 more games and get the score to 6-5.

Now you seem to assume that clone Tezuka was using Phantom on top of the prediction, but that makes no sense. If you're making a prediction with the Phantom, it'd simply be "3 rallies" every single time. That is, Tezuka serves, Fuji returns, Tezuka applies Phantom, Fuji hits it out of bounds. He can't be predicting Phantom getting returned safely because Phantom itself isn't hard to hit back, so if he can forsee that Phantom getting returned it'd be a repeat of the self-mutiliation sequence of Phantom versus Rin played 2 matches ago.

The frames on Niou does not show the distinctive vortex effect for Phantom in the sequence of events between 5-4 and 5-6, but it does show him using the first two doors interchangeably. I've no problem with Fuji able to defeat the first two doors as that's an equivalent of Rai level of power, but that's why the real Tezuka can use Phantom.

LOL, he used Prediction ONCE. It failed.
He didn't use prediction again.
Niou knows how to use his opponents abilities excellently. There is an obvious reason he became Shiraishi.
Out of desperation realizing Tezuka won't work, he became Shiraishi.

Originally Posted by Phantron

You're also making the assumption that because certain guys probably has to win in any game they get into in the manga that this somehow means they're also correspondingly that powerful. It's hard to see Fuji losing if he does get a game at all given his popularity but this doesn't mean he is supposed to be more powerful as a baseline player.

Nope. We are going by abilities here.
Your reasoning has been either weak or inaccurate so far.
Tezuka only has ZSS over Fuji here.
Since the rules the moderator for this thread set, were NO TMnK for Tezuka!!

When Fuji won those 2 more games. Niou did not take a point during those two more games.
Had Fuji unlocked Closed Eyes and Cord Ball, it means Niou without ZSS would have lost a straight set.
Please. Re-watch the episode. Or re-read the manga.

And last of all. We are going by Nationals!Fuji VS Nationals!Tezuka basically. We are not counting any ''plot bailouts''.
This means Tezuka could win, but not easily. Its all down to his amazing ZSS.
Please read people's posts before you lay down walls of text.

I don't think these discussion is supposed to be like: "If X played Y in the next chapter of NPOT who would win." You can simply look up the character popularity chart (check the Valentine chocolate list, for example), and for example Atobe will be heavily favored against fighting the entire G10 at the same time if this hypothetical match occurred. He'd probably just shoot laser beams from his eyes and kill the G10 instantly and won because he's a runaway fan favorite.

Valentine is linked to Tenimyu and stuff.
in the straight up Character popularity poll Fuji came first in the last one, but Fuji hasn't appeared getting better in the storyline. Sanada came 19th.
This means what you're saying doesnt mean a thing.
Sanada has been shown lots of times improving. So popularity doesn't mean much to Konomi.