Well Adrian you did miss something and Roberto why even respond if you didn't even look at the ad to get a valid opinion on where we are coming from.

Who gives a rats ass about who learned on what and when. It is 2012, the kite in question is 7 model years and light years difference in performance and technology. Maybe "the last c kite cabrinha ever made " should be in the ad.

Sure there are 12 pictures of it, well thats good cause the only place you will see the size of the kite in the whole ad is in two of the 12 and then its not even that easy to see.

The advertisement is deceitful and somebody got taken for a ride. If you can look at that ad and not think it is misleading/slanted to make the buyer think that the kite is on par with anything being used today then I am surprised you didn't buy it.

As an instructor/or conscience human being I would never feel comfortable selling this kite to anybody that I didn't have a conversation with and make sure I was getting an educated buyer.

How this doesn't just stink of sleazy used car salesman mentality to everyone is beyond me.

This is what is wrong with this country, just cause its not illegal and there is a sucker born every minute then every deceitful act under the law must be ok.

Is it ethical for an "instructor" to blindly sell old gear to anybody?

"I just offered them the Crack/heroin/speed they decided if they wanted to buy it, I am not at fault."

Technically as in any other industry, if a product has been deemed unsafe, then there should be a recall to revise it or pull it from the market to protect people like Henery and his buyer if this in fact a dangerous piece of gear. Problem is the manufactures cant afford or not willing to lose their bottom line to do so.

The manufacturers can get sued but know it would take walking on water to prove it was not pilot error. Problem is henery and people peddling used old gear may or may not know whether it is reliable and so you need a third party like an FAA to be established which wont.

So each and every forum or outside interest should have a front page item that lists concepts, particular gear, or other items as banned from being sold on the website before they are listed (for ex: small dangling QR pull that is hard to grab or find). If this matters then a panel should be devised and they should at least, list or review a rating for what is safe before it makes it into the wrong hands or not allow all together. THis is something that can be done if there is a problem. This criteria should be based on what the experts know as a kite that cannot be tuned to fly in the air or a safety that does not work under load etc.. proven by incidents or consensus.

Old kites are not going to get thrown out just because they are older. It is all a frame a reference is a 2005 old. A 2005 is new compared to a 2 line 2001. I learned on a 2004. I still ride 2006 kites. My car is 2 years older than this fucking kite, It has way more complex parts it still runs great.

It is up to the buyer to do their research as it is when making any purchase from a kite to a motorcycle to a car and decide what model year they want to get.

With the size wow that is my bad I listed this quickly and did not realize I left that out, I had many kites to list (All bow kites this was only c kite) mistakes happen. Either way seeing the 12 pictures someone should know the size or email me and ask as it was no "secret".

Lieing or trickery is never OK. I did not do that I do not condone that kind of BS ever. I copied "Cabrinhas product info" they call it "Entry level out of all the models made that year" Nothing wrong with that. Just as you can learn on a ninja 250r motorcycle of 2005 and it is still an "entry level" bike in the product description. Even though the ninja 250r from 2008+ is the new "bow" style. It is up to the buyer to decide what they want and what their bid amount is. As long as you are not lieing I see absolutely no problems. I am an honest seller. You can tell by the fact I have 103 feedbacks and every single one of them is positive. I am not even going to argue this. So cut the BS.

A sketchy used car salesman would promote it to a newbie saying its a bow kite etc. I did none of that. I properly gave a product description and took many pictures, inspected the condition of the gear, tested for leaks, etc. Nothing wrong with that at all. Also I say Please ask if you have any questions. I answer all questions honestly and sometime's will even tell someone that kite is not for them if I feel it is much to big or small for their weight or riding conditions because I DO CARE.

Lets just cut the negative BS and can a moderator just freeze this topic it is getting ridiculous. This is a kiteboard forum meant to bring riders together not cause online drama. If that is what this forum has come to, I am going to delete my user name and stop using this forum as I do not want to be a part of that kind of negativity when it comes to such a amazing sport as kiteboarding.

jensmadwind wrote:Well Adrian you did miss something and Roberto why even respond if you didn't even look at the ad to get a valid opinion on where we are coming from.

Who gives a rats ass about who learned on what and when. It is 2012, the kite in question is 7 model years and light years difference in performance and technology. Maybe "the last c kite cabrinha ever made " should be in the ad.

Sure there are 12 pictures of it, well thats good cause the only place you will see the size of the kite in the whole ad is in two of the 12 and then its not even that easy to see. The advertisement is deceitful and somebody got taken for a ride. If you can look at that ad and not think it is misleading/slanted to make the buyer think that the kite is on par with anything being used today then I am surprised you didn't buy it.

As an instructor/or conscience human being I would never feel comfortable selling this kite to anybody that I didn't have a conversation with and make sure I was getting an educated buyer.

How this doesn't just stink of sleazy used car salesman mentality to everyone is beyond me.

This is what is wrong with this country, just cause its not illegal and there is a sucker born every minute then every deceitful act under the law must be ok.

Is it ethical for an "instructor" to blindly sell old gear to anybody?

"I just offered them the Crack/heroin/speed they decided if they wanted to buy it, I am not at fault."

I specificaly mentioned that I had not reviewed all the details and was making a comment about the kite itself more than anything. I have now seen the eBay ad and I still do not see anything deceitful about it. The seller clearly states "I believe the kite is from 2005 but it may be a year earlier or later.". This seems like enough to influence a naive buyer to look further into it.

I still have no knowledge of the buyer frame of mind. I wonder if this "naive" buyer has the where-with-all to search eBay for a kite he probably also has done some other "research" on-line (or otherwise) about kitesurfing, equipment, lessons, etc...maybe he even has friends who ride? I really don't know.

Jens, you clearly say the ad is "deceitful". I don't see it to be honest. I think your principals of "doing unto others" is well intentioned and wise...but unless you have proof of someone being deceitful it might be slanderous/libelous to say so. You also state "it is misleading/slanted to make the buyer think that the kite is on par with anything being used today"..I still don't see it...and wasn't that sort of covered when seller stated it was a 2005 or earlier kite? Comparing the sale of a kite to the sale of an illegal and controlled substance that is known to have serious health and social impacts is pretty extreme though, maybe not "ethical" to some people. For the Christian readers Mathew 7 may also come to mind.

Although it may have been the last C-kite Cabrinha made it's not the last kite they (or anyone else) made with "safety issues" and there are companies who have continued to make C-kites ever since...and it could be easily argued all kites have their own "safety issues".

"Is it ethical for an "instructor" to blindly sell old gear to anybody?" Personally I've never sold a kite to anyone that I dd not speak to at great length. I have no idea if there was any communication between buyer and seller, but would agree that there should be something of this process with kite equipment.

As snowball said someone bid this kite up to $400. Should we condemn snowball for that? He might lose money on some of his kite deals too. People do some crazy things on eBay...like the 250# guy who bought his ex-wifes wedding dress for some ridiculous sum ($4000) to get back at her (?).

jensmadwind wrote:this kite is no longer a entry level kite nor is the relaunch effortless. to cut and paste the 7 year old product information as if it applied to today is wrong IN MY OPINION.

this thread got started because the scenario was a laughing stock on the NW kiteforum( a much larger forum) before Ivo ever brought it up here.

Jens, not to sound contradictory, but I do respect your opinion and I agree with your intentions to influence others to do the right thing when it comes to selling kite gear (or doing anything else for that matter), and I think that I am 100% in agreement with those philosophies.

but...right above the pasted "manufacturer's info" he said the kite is 2005 or earlier...which seems like fair enough disclosure. So I cannot denounce someobody unless I know there was malfeasance, and I have to base my opinion on the facts available to me.

I think there are lessons to be learned from this since people are watching and listening, and looking out for each other, and that's the way it should be.

jensmadwind wrote:this kite is no longer a entry level kite nor is the relaunch effortless. to cut and paste the 7 year old product information as if it applied to today is wrong IN MY OPINION.

this thread got started because the scenario was a laughing stock on the NW kiteforum( a much larger forum) before Ivo ever brought it up here.

IVO wrote:You put info about kite from 2004 as a description for it in 2012.Does that seems ok with you?Either you dont understand nothing about the gear you selling or you dont care.As a "kitesurfing instructor" thats a unacceptable and 100% unethical in either way..

Really not too hard to understand this,very simple concept.Hope some could come out better from this.

Kajun Rule #1-Never try to teach a pig to sing.....It wastes your time and it annoys the pig.

FSP wrote:its not about legal mumbo jumbo and unsafe vs safe,its about Do you care enough about the next guy even though you don't know him not to screw him over?

safety and being liable is the issue! if this kite is just lacking performance and not deemed dangerous then let him save lots of money to get into the sport and not make the guy he bought it from liable. as Derek said he has lived long enuf to know that just maybe things changed a bit in 7 years and will need to learn the difference as with anything.

4w7s wrote:I've got a few older C-kites lying around. If someone wants to buy them I'm not going to lose sleep as long as they are informed buyers...they aren't necessarily bad kites if you know what you want and know what you are getting.

if your going to personally make a point to inform them, then its all good, however if you expect that to be found out without your intervention, this kind of purchase could be ugly (no depower, possibly bad release mechanism etc...). Older c-kites should come with a full warning like description especially here in the midwest!!

This thread started out as a deliberate negative public attack on young kiter who has been part of the kiting community for a very long time but it was beginning to turn into a terrific ethics discussion about proper disclosure on the sale of old kites.

In thinking back, I’m reminded of how Henry first got introduced to people: by chasing their lost kites and boards down in his father’s boat. We were so thankful back in those days to have someone so generous with their time, gas and energy.

Bravo to those of you who stated your ethics points fairly and reasonably. It was enjoyable.

And then, Evil, you decided you needed to restate your original insult at your target. Timed well, I might add, and divert the ethics discussion back into an attack on Henry.

I would have sent you a private message but we can see you have no respect for that function.======================We had a kid who saw it as his job the bus in school to instigate arguments between others.He sat in the middle of the bus.He was careful to make “friends” with just enough people so that he could be trusted when he passed half baked information between the various groups he wanted to manipulate.There were fights almost every day on the bus ride home.Then we finally got the idea to beat the hell out of the instigator, himself.

There were no more fights or arguments on the bus.==================================

Henry is at worst, guilty of being a young 19 year old guy. He has no deliberate ill intent to anyone and has enough years of a real reputation to back that up. He’s also willing to alter his behavior or choices with anyone willing to speak with him in earnest.

Derek wrote:This thread started out as a deliberate negative public attack on young kiter who has been part of the kiting community for a very long time but it was beginning to turn into a terrific ethics discussion about proper disclosure on the sale of old kites.

In thinking back, I’m reminded of how Henry first got introduced to people: by chasing their lost kites and boards down in his father’s boat. We were so thankful back in those days to have someone so generous with their time, gas and energy.

Bravo to those of you who stated your ethics points fairly and reasonably. It was enjoyable.

And then, Evil, you decided you needed to restate your original insult at your target. Timed well, I might add, and divert the ethics discussion back into an attack on Henry.

I would have sent you a private message but we can see you have no respect for that function.======================We had a kid who saw it as his job the bus in school to instigate arguments between others.He sat in the middle of the bus.He was careful to make “friends” with just enough people so that he could be trusted when he passed half baked information between the various groups he wanted to manipulate.There were fights almost every day on the bus ride home.Then we finally got the idea to beat the hell out of the instigator, himself.

There were no more fights or arguments on the bus.==================================

Henry is at worst, guilty of being a young 19 year old guy. He has no deliberate ill intent to anyone and has enough years of a real reputation to back that up. He’s also willing to alter his behavior or choices with anyone willing to speak with him in earnest.

Wow Derek,what happen to you?Hope whatever you were looking to achieved by that post,you reached that goal.You are right,instead of private msg you should have called me,you have been good friend.

Evil-Im calling you in that msg as a good friend because I want to divert fact that I was misleading you all that time about being good friends with you just for a moment when I would need to use you or plant new public attack on young kiters or cause more divergence so my goal here would be finished and I could move on to another planet.

Your post to me blows

IVO wrote:I shook my head in disbelieve, that there are buyers for outdated,ridiculously overprized and dangerous gear like this.On other hand you really had to have tough skin on your back to be selling gear like this.Imagine after reading description I would think,Im 1st time rider so I will activate Recon system and shit all is well,sick!No wonder why this add never manage to get to our section,since this BS would never fly here.

So to new guys who are just getting into sport,please do Yourself and US a big favor,take a proper lessons when looking to learn kitesurfing,dont be shy and ask on the forums.Everyone has to start somehow and 2004 kite just isnt going to do it no matter what is seller telling you.Great respect to all who had to learn on gear like this,but that is a past and learning on new~er gear is much more fun and safer for ALLto be involved.

IVO wrote:The thing is Henry,I dont talk shit on public forums and than different stuff in real life like many,for me there's no difference.

In past when had my differences with some people,normally I did solve it off the board...you presenting yourself as a "kitesurfing instructor" here and as a guy who flips kite for money,looking out for buyer,checking lines and testing gear before selling.ect.I do care less that you ripped off someone with that price tag what blows is YOU sold piece of shit as a great kite in amazing condition to a NEW GUY,since no one else would buy it for that money.You put info about kite from 2004 as a description for it in 2012.Does that seems ok with you?Either you dont understand nothing about the gear you selling or you dont care.As a "kitesurfing instructor" thats a unacceptable and 100% unethical in either way.

Hope you catching my drift now.

I didnt get this topic up to discuss that you sold kite for 400$ I did it because I do care whats happening around Lake Michigan,this is not a huge community,its more like a family for those who travel around it.Many times I did send new guys home with similar gear buying off ebay and idea where to start from.That said Im very surprised what you are willing to do to make money.

Dont be surprised to be called on BS publicly if you doing such a great service for this community as you saying,simple.

Kajun Rule #1-Never try to teach a pig to sing.....It wastes your time and it annoys the pig.

Honestly Ivo you lost me as a friend through this too. You lost my respect and by publicly posting my private message showed you are not a trust worthy person. Not very BROtherly of you at all as you would like to say it.

If you have a problem with people selling old kites you are 100% free to have your own opinion but that is a completely different topic much bigger than this and does not specifically involve me in anyway. You can even start a new topic if you really feel so strongly about it.

Do not bring my name into this and taint my image. I take pride in my 100% positive customer service and my honesty and integrity and that is reflected by my positive feedback as a seller and all the local riders who learned kite boarding through my lessons. You would be surprised how many of the guys at Waukegan took their first few lessons with me. Do not try to taint my name or my business on a public forum. BS move bro.

I remember when you were a new kiter at Waukegan and we all gave you tips on how to go upwind and do jumps we showed you nothing but BROtherly love. I thought the one thing you would have learned in Maui was respect for those who did this shit before you and who helped you learn the sport and showed you nothing but love. Guess not.

You basically stabbed me in the back bro. Derek and many others have my back.

snowball wrote:Honestly Ivo you lost me as a friend through this too. You lost my respect and by publicly posting my private message showed you are not a trust worthy person. Not very BROtherly of you at all as you would like to say it.

.

Lol Henry,you already said this once week ago,let me post my answer to you again ,so I dont have to type same msg to you twice.

"Not sure why that would be a problem unless you talked shit about someone behind computer like little kids on facebook

on a side note Henry,from your reply on a forum you seem not to understand that problem is not the price for that piece of garbage,but selling piece of garbage itself.But i did spend already much more time on this than Im willing to give,maybe someday you'll understand.Until than...

Be sure you have lost opinion about you from many,"

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Until now I didnt realize how young you actually are.Derek was right I should have known better.Later in the life you will learn that one of the values in life is honesty and its worth to stand up for it..to raise your voice even with the friend.You keep bring it up that I posted your private msg,as an unfortunate that is,it is what it is,its the truth.You throw you old friend in it under the bus,talk shit behind his back,that's childish.So be a man and not a kid anymore.

Not sure why did you use world "we did help you",yes Derek helped me.

Maui?You have no idea what you talking about here,pleaseee..

To put this to some ending from my side,

Im done going back and worth,since all have been said already at the begining of this.

Hope you can run better bussines someday,until than...

Kajun Rule #1-Never try to teach a pig to sing.....It wastes your time and it annoys the pig.

understand that problem is not the price for that piece of garbage,but selling piece of garbage itself

OK so if you have a problem with people selling 2005 gear that is not about me specifically so absolutely no reason single me out. Thousands of people sell 2005 and earlier gear on ebay. I don't believe anything should get throw away unless it is torn so bad it is dangerous or has no working safety system.

Pick on someone your own size and age bro kinda pathetic of you.

You Ivo are a Hater people like you are my motivation to succeed and be the person I am. So really bro thanks I'm flattered

Hope you can run better bussines someday,until than...

You make absolutely no sense on this one. I believe customer service is number one in a business. Just to show you my customer service that I work so hard to keep at 100% positive which is very important to me on a moral and business level.

Here I am going to copy and paste my feedback from the last 30 days. Yea I have such horrible business ethics.

snowball wrote:Lets just cut the negative BS and can a moderator just freeze this topic it is getting ridiculous. This is a kiteboard forum meant to bring riders together not cause online drama. If that is what this forum has come to, I am going to delete my user name and stop using this forum as I do not want to be a part of that kind of negativity when it comes to such a amazing sport as kiteboarding.

In no way am I freezing or deleting this thread. As much as I support your decision to list that kite and sell it to whomever you want, just because there is dissenting opinion doesn't mean that gives me or anyone the ethical rights to "moderate" the thread. As long as personal or ad hominem attacks are not used then we have to respect the others viewpoint and let them speak. They bring up valid points even though I don't agree with it. If anyone starts "moderating" then you get a dictatorship where only certain viewpoints are accepted. A little extreme of an example, but I hope you get my drift. I've been attacked too on this forum. but good discussion followed. "This too shall pass"

jensmadwind wrote:Who gives a rats ass about who learned on what and when. It is 2012, the kite in question is 7 model years and light years difference in performance and technology. Maybe "the last c kite cabrinha ever made " should be in the ad.

Good answer, but I was trying to prove that at one point this gear worked just fine. It's not the Ford Pinto (defective exploding gas tank) of kites. As long as it's in good condition it still is fine.

jensmadwind wrote:The advertisement is deceitful and somebody got taken for a ride. If you can look at that ad and not think it is misleading/slanted to make the buyer think that the kite is on par with anything being used today then I am surprised you didn't buy it.

I think Roberto said it best. I don't see it being deceitful at all. Show me where he is hiding the truth......seriously.....show me. Wrong word choice and a very important one in my opinion. Roberto mentioned it's a little slanderous. I agree

jensmadwind wrote:This is what is wrong with this country, just cause its not illegal and there is a sucker born every minute then every deceitful act under the law must be ok.

Is it ethical for an "instructor" to blindly sell old gear to anybody?

I think this is what it boils down to. I don't want a nanny state where regulations are in every corner of everything. The Greeks tried it...failed. The Romans tried it....failed. USSR tried it.....failed. I do believe small regulations for things like driving a car, doing surgery or giving shots, flying a plane, etc are good things and protect society. BUT, not something like kiteboarding. Let's be real it's not the most dangerous thing you can do and a lot of people do learn on their own. A mouth-full of sand/grass is usually the worst that happens. Please don't list the extremes, I do understand. I'll just come back and mention that we should have mandatory chewing classes because more people die of choking (Percentage wise) then of kiteboarding. I'm all for classes as the safest and quickest way to learn at a reasonable cost, but don't force it when possible.

There is no way to get around what you want Jens (and others). Regulation. How else do you get around your issue with the buying and selling of old gear or people getting lessons? People don't agree with you, and for good reasons. Does that mean you should force them to do it your way? The same reason I won't lock this thread is the same reason you should rethink why another opinion shouldn't be regulated. As I've mentioned it's a slippery slope.