For those uninitiated: The whole thing started when Estonia decided to move a statue dedicated to the Red Army to a new location (nearby military-cemetary). In recent times, the statue had been used by the Russian minority for anti-Estonia gatherings.

Now, Russia thinks that moving that statue is "Fascism", since it's dedicated to the Red Army that "liberated" Estonia from the Nazis. But fact is that USSR occupied Estonia in 1940 and started brutal dominion over the country. In 1941 Estonia was occupied by the Nazis, and in 1944 it was re-occupied by the USSR, who then proceeded where they left off, and promptly moved 50.000 Estonians to Siberia and then they arranged a phony "referendum" where Estonians "decided to join the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics".

In short. Red Army just replaced one brutal dictatorship (Nazis) with another (Communism). And the Estonians felt that they had had enough with a statue that glorifies the event. That, of course, was a big no-no for Russia and Russians.

And, considering that the rioting outside Estonian embassy and the cutting of the rail-traffic was directed by Kreml, I have no reason to believe why the cyber-attack wouldn't be their doing either.

Let me tell you: living next to Russia is no fun. They are always pulling off crap like this.

Originally posted by Janne:Let me tell you: living next to Russia is no fun. They are always pulling off crap like this.

Interesting that you conveniently forgot to mention that were Estonians to remain under Nazi rule, they would have been exterminated (just like everybody else in the area) in accordance to the 5 year grand Nazi plan. (everyone up to Ural mountains was to be exterminated, Halocaust wasn't a purely anti-jewish affair as it is often made out to be)

So as bad as the Russians were, you are still here to bitch at them, aren't you?

And what's with this "liberated"? Why the quotes, you think Nazi should've been left in control? You support them? And 54million people were slaughtered in Siberia during the 70 year communist regime, most of whom were Russians, not to mention 22 million that were lost in WWII, don't wine how you got it bad.

Originally posted by Janne:Let me tell you: living next to Russia is no fun. They are always pulling off crap like this.

Interesting that you conveniently forgot to mention that were Estonians to remain under Nazi rule, they would have been exterminated (just like everybody else in the area) in accordance to the 5 year grand Nazi plan. (everyone up to Ural mountains was to be exterminated, Halocaust wasn't a purely anti-jewish affair as it is often made out to be)

So as bad as the Russians were, you are still here to bitch at them, aren't you?

And what's with this "liberated"? Why the quotes, you think Nazi should've been left in control? You support them?

Ahh, so long term slavery and suppression is a victory compared to extermination? How about, they could both have done better?

The idea of "Bah, they should have been exterminated years ago, now they are complaining they were left alive?!?!?!" is a bit scary to some of us.

Originally posted by Traddy:Ahh, so long term slavery and suppression is a victory compared to extermination? How about, they could both have done better?

The idea of "Bah, they should have been exterminated years ago, now they are complaining they were left alive?!?!?!" is a bit scary to some of us.

Do not twist my arguments around to your point of view. If you believe that, that's fine, keep me out of it. I merely said that he made out Nazi as some sort of benefactors who were OK and it was the USSR that really screwed them up and have done no good.

Originally posted by Janne:Let me tell you: living next to Russia is no fun. They are always pulling off crap like this.

Interesting that you conveniently forgot to mention that were Estonians to remain under Nazi rule, they would have been exterminated (just like everybody else in the area) in accordance to the 5 year grand Nazi plan.

Maybe, but that does not in any shape or form justify the actions of the USSR. Why did they occupy Estonia in the first place? Because the deal USSR made with the Nazis allowed it...

quote:

So as bad as the Russians were, you are still here to bitch at them, aren't you?

Does that mean that since they haven't invaded and killed us (Finns in this case) we should just let them violate our airspace (over and over again), jam up our roads with bogus excuses, threaten our neighbours, violate Vienna convention, lie, blackmail and harass?

quote:

And what's with this "liberated"? Why the quotes, you think Nazi should've been left in control? You support them?

I would have preferred Estonians to be left in control, instead of Russians. Is it really "liberation" if you kick out one dictatorship, and replace it with another?

Your rationale is REALLY weird: "What, you oppose the brutal dictatorship USSR imposed on the Estonians? Do you support nazis instead?". Are you saying that only alternative to Communist dictarorship is Nazi-dictatorship? Are you forgetting that before USSR occupied Estonia in 1940, Estonia was a sovereign country?

Originally posted by Traddy:Ahh, so long term slavery and suppression is a victory compared to extermination? How about, they could both have done better?

The idea of "Bah, they should have been exterminated years ago, now they are complaining they were left alive?!?!?!" is a bit scary to some of us.

Do not twist my arguments around to your point of view. If you believe that, that's fine, keep me out of it. I merely said that he made out Nazi as some sort of benefactors who were OK and it was the USSR that really screwed them up and have done no good.

No I didn't you damn nitwit. I merely stated the historical fact that it was the USSR that first occupied Estonia, and that Estonia was a sovereign state before that. After USSR, Estonia was occupied by the Nazis. After that, Estonia was occupied and annexed by the USSR.

And now you are saying that "so you support the nazis, huh? They should have left the nazis in power?", when in reality I'm not saying anything like that. What I AM saying is that they should have left ESTONIANS in control. You know, like how things were before Estonia was occupied by USSR in 1940? Or are YOU saying that the occupation of 1940 is perfectly A-OK?

Originally posted by lexor:OK, this is enough, if you all prefer to twist my words as defensive of USSR, you can just keep on going on your merry way. I'm out.

Well, you ARE defending USSR. And the moment historical facts start to go against you, you just comment "I'm out". Well, don't let the door hit you on the ass on your way out!

If the Red Army REALLY were the "liberators" Russians try to portray them as being, they should have left Estonians in control. But they didn't, therefore they are no liberators. Maybe they were marginally better than the nazis were, but that's hardly a ringing endorsement, now is it?

And the hyporicy of Russia regarding this thing is sickening. Besides complaining about the statue (which is simply being moved from one place to another), they are complaining that Estonians should not touch the half-a-dozen or so WW2-era graves of Red Army soldiers that are under the statue (the bodies are to be moved to the cemetary as well). Well, what Russia is failing to mention is that they are digging up WW2-era graves up in Moscow because they are widening a local freeway... How about the cemeteries that Finns left behind them in Karelia? Well, they took the tombstones as used them as raw material for buildings, and the cemeteries themselves (with bodies and all) were simply bulldozed over.

How about the monument in the Karelian Isthmus dedicated to fallen Finnish soldiers? Well, Russians built a military proving-ground around it, and they do live-ammo shooting in there... Thanks for respecting the monument, dudes!

If I sound pissed over this issue, that's because I am. I find the behavior of Russia to be extremely hypocritical and offensive.

A spokesman for Estonia's defense ministry likens the attacks against his country to the September 11 attacks in the US.

WTF?

Well, it could mean that in both cases the country is under attack by a foreign power. IF the DDoS-attack manages to cripple large portions of Estonian online-infrastructure, the damage could be quite extensive.

Well, it could mean that in both cases the country is under attack by a foreign power. IF the DDoS-attack manages to cripple large portions of Estonian online-infrastructure, the damage could be quite extensive.

Agreed, but I would argue that there is a large difference between flying planes into both civilian and military targets and taking down a few government websites. I'm not approving nor condoning either, but the article made it sound like there was not wide spread damage due to the DDoS attack.

Now, if they managed to cripple critical infrastructure components and people started dieing because of it, then I would agree.

Imagine that there was a Mexican cemetery with a memorial in downtown Los Angeles. Further, imagine that the local Mexican immigrant population regarded the memorial THE major local symbol of their heritage, and the Mexicans buried near it as heroes. Now, imagine, that the US Government, in a blatant attempt to appeal to racists and xenophobic voters, ordered the bodied of the heroes dug up with a backhoe and the statue moved to some distant out-of-the way location.

Imagine that this occurred after 15 years of disenfranchisement, anti-Spanish-language policies, and government-approved discrimination against people of Mexican heritage.

Imagine that US law made it quite difficult for the Mexican immigrants affected by these policies to obtain citizenship and vote the racist politicians out of office.

Wouldn't you expect riots? Wouldn't you expect DDoS attacks? And wouldn't you expect the people across the border to be sympathetic to the fate of their former countrymen?

Originally posted by Jade:You left out the imagining where Mexico brutally occupied California for most of 50 years. Context is everything, after all.

Please explain why ethnic Russians living in Estonia in 2007 are being punished for what NKVD thugs of various ethnicities did in 1946. Do not forget that the vast majority of the victims of aforementioned NKVD thugs were ethnic Russians.

Originally posted by tetromino:Let me provide some context to your debate.

Your "context" is lacking. Try this:

Ever since 1940 or so, Mexico had brutally occupied USA. Loads of Americans were sent to prison-camps where they were killed like flies, while loads of Mexicans were moved to USA in order to "Mexicanize" USA. Then, the Mexican regime suddenly collapses, and Americans find themselves in charge of their own country again. But theres a sizable Mexican minority left behind by the old regime, and those people routinely gather around a statue that glorifies the "Mexican liberation of USA" and they shout chants like "Down with USA!" while waving Mexican flags.

Now there's some "context" for you.

quote:

Now, imagine, that the US Government, in a blatant attempt to appeal to racists and xenophobic voters, ordered the bodied of the heroes dug up with a backhoe and the statue moved to some distant out-of-the way location.

Um, the statue and the bodies were moved to a nearby cemetary. And the bodies were not dug up with a backhoe, they were in fact carefully dug up and moved.

quote:

Imagine that this occurred after 15 years of disenfranchisement, anti-Spanish-language policies, and government-approved discrimination against people of Mexican heritage.

huh? The Russian minority in Estonia can become Estonian citizens if the demonstrate that they know the language (Estonian) well enough. For some reason quite a few of them have decided not to learn the language. Instead, they underline their Russian roots. Well, if they want to be Russians, they could always move to Russia.

Originally posted by urmas:Or does for example US give citizenship to anyone who wants it?

Yes. If you were born in the US or enter it legally, live there for X years, pay taxes, don't violate US laws, and pass a civics test, you get citizenship. Which is the way things are done in all civilized countries.

quote:

And after those Mexicans had occupied US for 50 years and moved 5% of US population to Mexican deserts?

Please don't mix up the Soviet system with the ethnic Russians living in Estonia. All Soviet citizens were victims of the regime.

Originally posted by Jade:You left out the imagining where Mexico brutally occupied California for most of 50 years. Context is everything, after all.

Please explain why ethnic Russians living in Estonia in 2007 are being punished for what NKVD thugs of various ethnicities did in 1946. Do not forget that the vast majority of the victims of aforementioned NKVD thugs were ethnic Russians.

If the Russian in Estonia have nothing to do with the "Russians of the past", why is that statue so important to them? If they have nothing to do with the occupation, why do they treasure a statue that glorifies the occupation? If they want to be Estonians, why don't they learn the language and apply for citizenship? Why do they gather around that statue and shout anti-Estonian chants while waving Russian flags?

If they want to wash their hands of the actions of NKVD, they should then distance themselves for the statue and the things it represents. Yet they do not. Instead, they raise it on a pedestal and treasure it.

Most of Eastern Europe hates the Soviets, just as much as they hate the Nazis. They're glad the Soviets are gone, and they're understandably touchy when it comes to Russia trying to impose some influence.

I've been to Estonia, it's one of my favorite countries. The people there speak Estonian now, no more Russian. They've gone to great lengths to re-exert their identity, which had been strangled out by the Soviets. Estonia and Latvia are among the best places to visit in Europe.

In Lithuania, they have a museum, which in their language translates into "Genocide Museum". It's named that way not so much for the Nazis, it's about the occupation by the Soviets, and how 250,000 Lithuanians were exterminated by the Soviets.

Originally posted by urmas:Or does for example US give citizenship to anyone who wants it?

Yes. If you were born in the US or enter it legally, live there for X years, pay taxes, don't violate US laws, and pass a civics test, you get citizenship. Which is the way things are done in all civilized countries.

The Russians in Estonia have not passed the civics test. So what exactly is the problem here then?

quote:

Please don't mix up the Soviet system with the ethnic Russians living in Estonia. All Soviet citizens were victims of the regime.

Originally posted by Janne:huh? The Russian minority in Estonia can become Estonian citizens if the demonstrate that they know the language (Estonian) well enough. For some reason quite a few of them have decided not to learn the language. Instead, they underline their Russian roots. Well, if they want to be Russians, they could always move back to Russia.

Originally posted by Jade:You left out the imagining where Mexico brutally occupied California for most of 50 years. Context is everything, after all.

Please explain why ethnic Russians living in Estonia in 2007 are being punished for what NKVD thugs of various ethnicities did in 1946. Do not forget that the vast majority of the victims of aforementioned NKVD thugs were ethnic Russians.

First, Estonia did not regain its independence until 1991, and the last Russian soldier did not leave until 1994. Prior to that, Estonians were second-class citizens in their own country for five decades ruled by Russian colonists and the Soviet Union. Now, Estonia is a free and independent nation again. Russian colonists must now become Estonians—as defined by Estonia—or get the fuck out, neither of which is an easy or appealing option. In response, Russia attempts to bully where tanks and mass deportation are no longer an option, and maybe a little cyber-terrorism on the side. Of course, this only hardens the resolve of the Estonians, so in the end fewer Russians will become Estonians and more will leave. Apologists for Russia call it punishment, everybody else calls it justice.

Originally posted by Jade:You left out the imagining where Mexico brutally occupied Los Angeles for most of 50 years. Context is everything, after all.

Not only that, but the monument would be for the 'heroes' who've done the occupation.

A little more context, still:

quote:

Originally posted by tetromino:Imagine that this occurred after 15 years of disenfranchisement, anti-Spanish-language policies, and government-approved discrimination against people of Mexican heritage.

In fact, it's the other way around - and for longer that 15 years. You'd have to imagine Mexico deporting a good part of the LA population to work camps in the jungle and replacing it with mexicans. Also, the 'liberating' Mexican army (from Canada, presumably) plundering^W generously accepting any valuables they could get their hands on^W^W^W^W from the grateful population. And graciously accepting to put their already-overworked local general commander in control of the state for the duration of the occupation^W glorious march towards Communism.

</sarcasm>

quote:

Originally posted by tetromino:Now, imagine, that the US Government, in a blatant attempt to appeal to racists and xenophobic voters, ordered the bodied of the heroes dug up with a backhoe and the statue moved to some distant out-of-the way location.

Wow, that is so blatantly one-sided it's pathetic. How dare the Estonians regard the legacy of the Russian occupation as anything other than a gift??? Didn't about 50 years of indoctrination teach them to obey the wishes of the Father in Kremlin? Next thing you know, they'll be siding with that traitor Khrushchev and call Stalin a tyrant and a murderer.

Edit: bah, looks like I'm late to the party. Sorry for duplicating arguments already stated, take this a another point confirming that tetromino is making no valid point about Russian 'heroes' and such.

A spokesman for Estonia's defense ministry likens the attacks against his country to the September 11 attacks in the US.

WTF?

That's what I thought too, at first, but think of it this way.

You're living in this country, right, that until recently was occupied by another country. That other country is now attacking your government's computer systems, and your ambassador to that country just managed to get out.

I would be about as scared as I was when I woke up and saw the city I was born in under attack.

Just to add some facts here:The statue was moved to a very nice, wooded, cemetary, as were the bodies buried around it, with the usual decency accorded to such acts. As Janne pointed out earlier, this is markedly better than Russian treats the graves of it's own soldiers (disinterring bodies to widen roads) and it's own war monuments, most of which are in a sorry state of disrepair.

That said, the movement of the statue was made into an election-issue by one of the parties during the last round of elections to appeal to anti-Russian sentiment in Estonia: so the Estonians aren't entirely blameless.

However they still did better than their Russian counterparts, who have been implicated in some of the riots that took place in Estonia. The Russian press has widely distorted this with stories of children being beaten by riot police: the fact is the protests were peacefully handled, and when they turned violent, and then appropriate amount of force was used. This is in marked contrast to the violent and hostile reception protest marches meet in Russia.

Also, saying Russia is okay because brutal soviet repression is better than Nazi extermination is nonsense: Russia had the chance to completely free Estonia and let an Estonian government take charge and they didn't.

Indeed, in 1939 the Soviets cut a deal with the Nazi's, the Molotov Ribbentrop Pact, which allowed Russian to invade and conquer Eastern Europe, and Germany to invade and conquer Western Europe. They then invaded jointly invaded Poland with the Nazis. When the Nazis attacted Russia, they fought back, and ultimately invaded and conquered Eastern Europe as they had planned all along, and did not release it till 1989. The Russians did not "liberate" Europe, as much as they like to think so: they invaded Eastern Europe just as they had always planned - they just switched sides when the Nazi's broke their agreement. As other posters have noted, the Soviets then deported several people to their own "work" (or concentration if you prefer) camps, and forcefully settled many Russians to distort the demographics of the country.

Their treatment of Estonia is bullying at the highest level, and an affront to the country's sovereignty. The sizable Russian minority in Estonia may not like the way the country is drifting: but they are still better off in Estonia than in their mother-country, and are still being treated better than their Russian forebears treated the Estonians (and bear in mind Estonia only gained full independence in 1994).

Wow.. that didn't last long. "Nazis" were pulled out of their grave and strung up as basis for an argument in by 3rd post on topic. What was the name for that rule for using Nazis in online argument?

In all seriousness, this is just another example of Russia going back to its roots. Now that they're awash in oil money, they're pulling off the old bullying book into "influencing" its neighbors. Cyber-attacks are just as damaging as crashing a jetliner into a major financial center. As the world gets more wired up, cyber attacks carries more damage than ever before.

As an interesting detail to the situation... The statue was modeled after Kristjan Palisalu, an Estonian wrestler who won two gold medals in the Berlin Olympics. When USSR occupied Estonia in 1940, he was deported to Soviet Union. When USSR became really involved in the war, he was drafted to the Red Army and sent to the Finnish Front, where he defected to the Finnish side. Finns then allowed him trip back to his homeland (which was under German occupation at the time). In 1944 he was captured by the Russians and sent to Siberia. It was during his time as a prisoner that he was used as a model for the statue.

So the "heroic Red Army soldier" depicted in the statue is no such thing. He was Estonian who refused to serve in the Red Army and was sent to Siberia because of that. The statue is a big lie. Everything about it is a lie.

While SSSR was quite nasty the rest wasn't much better (just that the west "won" so we hear less about it's freedom spreading). Insisting on bringing the whole crap up to political level is just what resulted in the riots (I have some experience with this shit as it led to war at my home due to idiotic peons falling for the whole propaganda thing).

This whole issue of moving the statue is a load of crap. The Russian government (and vast majority of Russians) don't really care about the rights of Russians living outside of Russia. The government cares about geo-political (pretending to be a world power) issues and silencing dissent. What better way is there then to rally most of the population (most of Russia consists of a Russian rednecks, their always up for glorifying the USSR and xenophobia) than to make up fake enemies? I remember when Russia sold off around (either you get a Turkmen citizenship or you lose all your property and go to Russia) 100,000 of its citizen to Turkmenistan (under the previous ruler), Russians don't care about such things if the propaganda channels don't mention it.

Right now the enemy is Estonia. You should see the Russian propaganda channels. Around 50% of the propaganda pieces contain something about Estonia.

Let me give you an example:

"Slavic nations have taken the top three places in the Eurovision song contest (pan-European commercialized music event), Russia got 3rd place! Western Europe hasn't gotten high marks for the past 5 years! And even Estonia gave us 12 points (the max).

Before that Russians would enjoy spreading dirt on Georgia and Ukraine. It's funny how when it seemed that Yanukovich (pro Russian politicians from Ukraine) would win the presidential elections, Russian propaganda got all pro-Ukrainian, from showing Ukrainian soccer games to allowing Ukrainians to work anywhere in Russia for up to 3 months without any red tape. That created a really funny situation as it became easier for many Ukrainians to stay in Moscow than it was for non-Muscovites.

And don't believe the BS about Russians being discriminated. Many of them are still living in the USSR era, they believe they should have some kind of special rights like being able to get a job anywhere without knowing the local language. If you want discrimination, just come to Russia .

They have all forms of discrimination, from requiring around 20 medical tests for foreigners to get jobs (I wish the Estonian government would make it just as hard for Russians to get jobs) to murder.

Killings of non-whites and foreigners is not that rare in Russia. In 2003 a Taik girl was killed by seven Russian skinheads, they got off when a slap on the wrist. The dorms in one of Moscow's universities (a lot of foreign students attend this university) was set on fire by skinheads resulting in 40 deaths.

Cops have also been know to kill foreigners . At the same time the police of in both Moscow and St Petersburg say stuff like "skinheads are non-issue."

Although this kind of behavior is to be expected from Russians. There is no civil society in Russian, extreme nationalism (around 11% of Russians think Jews are to blame for ALL of Russia's problems) and xenophobia are the norm.

And this thing was done as well it could be done. They moved the statue and the bodies to a cemetary. And to be honest, it fits a lot better to the cemetary than it did back when it was still next to a bus-stop.

What I find most frightening about this story is that the Russian government is successfully testing how far they can go. And it seems that short of invading their neighbours nothing is off limits. Some EU officials may express some "concerns" but oil&gas is so much more important that we will not see any counter action. I just hope I will NOT live long enough to see what happens when Russia will run out of small countries to harass and start extorting Germany or other Western countries.

On topic - while comparing this attack to 9/11 is quite lame, it's just a matter of time until someone pulls off something like that on a much larger scale. Until ISPs start cutting off zombies form their networks it is only going to get worse. And we all know that ISPs won't do anything about it.

Sorry for duplicating arguments already stated, take this a another point confirming that tetromino is making no valid point

Why, thank you for the complement. Perhaps I should apologize for disturbing the present company's groupthink?

Russia is, on average, a xenophobic, racist, and corrupt nation. Foreign students get beaten up. Cops shake down immigrant workers for bribes. Politicians routinely appeal to the voters' populist and xenophobic instincts. And if you bribe the right official, you can do anything, for example dig up the war cemetery in Himki to make way for construction.

However, Russia is not in the EU, it's not in NATO, and it's not considered a "true" democracy. Estonia is a EU and NATO member, and a darling of the West. One would think that the Estonian government ought to be held to a higher standard.

Just about every civilized nation has an enlightened attitude towards ethnic minorities. Look at Swedes in Finland, Catalans in Spain, Quebecois in Canada, Flemish in Belgium, Latinos in the US, the Welsh and the Scots in Britain, Sami in Norway...

Well, Estonia is different.

In Estonia, the Russian-speaking minority is 30% of the population, yet the Russian language has no official status and the government is actively trying to reduce its influence in the schools. In Estonia, it is considered acceptable for a person to be born in Estonia, to live in Estonia all his life, to obey Estonian laws, and never be granted Estonian citizenship. In Estonia, it is considered acceptable for a mainstream politician (Prime Minister Andrus Ansip) to cynically appeal to xenophobic voters to shore up his coalition. In Estonia, it is acceptable for an MP (Velliste) to make hate speech in parliament.

At least the Estonian government was nice enough to remove the Waffen SS monument in Parnu...

In its treatment of minorities, Estonia is taking lessons from Russia. Instead it should consider the example of peaceful and prosperous Finland, where Swedish is a second national language, even though the Swedish-speaking minority (who are, btw, descendants of bloodthirsty colonists) are only 5% of the population.

The Russian-speaking minority in Estonia are not some kind of a fifth column preparing a Neo-Soviet invasion. They want to live in a free, independent Estonia - but they also want their language, their culture, and their monuments to be respected.

In its treatment of minorities, Estonia is taking lessons from Russia. Instead it should consider the example of peaceful and prosperous Finland, where Swedish is a second national language, even though the Swedish-speaking minority (who are, btw, descendants of bloodthirsty colonists) are only 5% of the population.

This is another example of the myth of equivocation. The Swedish domination of Finland ended around 1800, while Estonia was controlled by Russians until 1994. Many of those same Russians are still alive and in Estonia today. As you point out, the Swedish speaking minority are only about five percent of the population of Finland, while the colonization of Estonia by Russia has resulted in out of four people in Estonia being Russian. Finally, it's highly unlikely Sweden will be invading Finland anytime soon. The same cannot be said for Russia invading Estonia, especially considering the tepid response the EU has had to Russian assaults against Estonian sovereignty so far.

In Estonia, it is considered acceptable for a person to be born in Estonia, to live in Estonia all his life, to obey Estonian laws, and never be granted Estonian citizenship.

Well, it is not exactly that way. You get Estonian citizenship automatically, when you are born in Estonian Republic. When you were born in the territory of Estonia under Soviet occupation, you must pass a civics test.