Topics - GregFL

This is Gregfl. I originated this forum at the suggestion of Ginger many years ago.

I just am coming in to make a few comments.

This forum was conceptualized as a place where people could come and discuss this topic, this very divisional and controversial topic, in a manner that they could be heard. It didn't matter what side of the issue they took, I provided a forum where people could discuss this topic safely. I deleted names, except the staff who allowed themselves to be named in the national media, and protected everyone else's identity the best I could due to the nature of the topic. To this end no personal attacks were allowed and for many years the forum thrived. We had escapees, staffers, graduates, and Barker insiders calling each other, talking out issues, and many people found peace and understanding on these pages.

Several years ago my daughter became seriously ill and I abandoned moderating this forum. For most the forum had kind of run its course and we old farts had resolved our issues and most of us had even come to respect each other no matter what side of the issue we were on. Most of us had come to understand we were just children when this thing called the seed happened to us and that we no longer had to view it from the eyes of a child. I had hoped the forum would continue without me as kind of a resource for people who hadn't been fortunate enough to be around this forum in its formative and productive years. (to anyone concerned, my daughter is doing fantastic now!)

Unfortunately the forum is now being trolled by people with an agenda. When a forum gets trolled, the 'goodness' gets lost, shouted down and buried under muck. In this case, the debates, the resolution, the intellectual conversations, the ability to see where and why others think as they do, and the coming to terms for many people is lost under juvenile anger, countless logins, profanity and nonsense.

I offer no apology for this because I am not responsible for it. If I still was, I wouldn't let it happen. To anyone reading, please look at the prior condition of this forum as kind of a seperate discussion and I think you will find it enlightening and usefull. To do this, you have to wade thru a proverbial bucket of crap for a glass of water, but the good things are still here.

If I was able I would shut it down and just archive the old pages. I offer my support for those being attacked now and my assurance that if I was still moderating this forum it would not be occuring.

"There is no question that an individual can be broken psycholog-ically by captors with knowledge and willingness to persist in tech-niques aimed at deliberately destroying the integration of a personality. Although it is probable that everyone reduced to such a confused, disoriented state will respond to the introduction of new beliefs, this cannot be stated dogmatically.

PRINCIPLES OF HUMAN CONTROL AND REACTION TO CONTROLThere are progressive steps in exercising control over an individ-ual and changing his behaviour and personality integration. The fol-lowing five steps are typical of behaviour changes in any controlledindividual:1. Making the individual aware of control is the first stage inchanging his behaviour...comes to recognize the overwhelming powers of the state and the impersonal, "incarcerative" machinery in which he is enmeshed. The individual recognizes that definite limits have been put upon the ways he can respond.

2. Realization of his complete dependence upon the controll-ing system is a major factor in the controlling of his behavior.The controlled adult is forced to accept the fact that food, tobacco,praise, and the only social contact that he will get come from the very interrogator who exercises control over him.

3. The awareness of control and recognition of dependence re-sult in causing internal conflict and breakdown of previous patternsof behaviour. Although this transition can be relatively mild inthe case of a child, it is almost invariably severe for the adultundergoing brainwashing. Only an individual who holds his valueslightly can change them easily. Since the brainwasher-interrogatorsaim to have the individuals undergo profound emotional change, they force their victims to seek out painfully what is desired by thecontrolling individual. During this period the victim is likely tohave a mental breakdown characterized by delusions and hallucinations.4. Discovery that there is an acceptable solution to his prob-lem is the first stage of reducing the individual's conflict. Itis characteristically reported by victims of brainwashing that thisdiscovery led to an overwhelming feeling of relief that the horrorof internal conflict would cease and that perhaps they would not,after all, be driven insane. It is at this point that they are pre-pared to make major changes in their value-system. This is anautomatic rather than voluntary choice. They have lost their a-bility to be critical.5. Reintergration of values and identification with the cont-rolling system is the final stage in changing the behaviour of thecontrolled individual.

.......

"The most important aspect of the brainwashing process is the interrogation. The other pressures are designed primarily to help the interrogator achieve his goals. The following states are created systematically within the individual . These may vary in order, but all are necessary to the brainwashing process:

1. A feeling of helplessness in attempting to deal with the impersonal machinery of control.2. An initial reaction of "surprise."3. A feeling of uncertainty about what is required of him.4. A developing feeling of dependence upon the interrogator .5. A sense of doubt and loss of objectivity.6. Feelings of guilt.7. A questioning attitude toward his own value-system.8. A feeling of potential "breakdown," i.e.,that he might go crazy.9. A need to defend his acquired principles.10. A final sense of "belonging" (identification)."

Check out this link to a full page "seed ad" found and sent to us by 3xaseedling! I am not sure what magazine or newspaper this ran in but there are some interesting things in it that clear up some of our online debates in this forum.

I am going to invite her to tell us everything she knows about the ad but a couple of points I am going to make..

1) Art Barker ' "doctorate in social sciences" was never used to garner respect or used otherwise used for legitimacy. NOT. His "doctorate" from "ft Lauderdale University", a questionable facility that was never authorized to issue doctorate degrees is bragged up right there in the ad.

2) Art Barkers rejection of public funds in 1974. This was right when the seed started dying as those of us there at the time can attest. The letter signed by Art Barker was apparently written by someone with legal training and not by Art's hand. Anyone think I am wrong here?

3) The seed of hope docudrama is mentioned and WE STILL DON"T HAVE A COPY OF IT! DOOH! (homer simpson voice) However, we have a trail as it mentioned who produced it...WTVJ channel 4 miami. Anyone down there willing to do some leg work and find these archives and retrieve a copy? if so I will make copies available to interested parties at my expense for those who have participated in this forum.

Last night in Tampa Jimmy Buffet played at the ford Ampitheatre. It was a typical Jb concert, that is..sold out with people dressed in tropical attire and having a blast. Anyway, before the concert much to the crowds surprise out walks Governor Charlie Crist to introduce Jimmy Buffet.

Amid the boos , hisses, and smattering of applause as Governor Crist was trying to introduce JB, I heard the following cat call clear as a whistle...

Request from Ginger: She is offline and it is important to her to get a show recorded. My puter won't do it.

Will someone please step up, and record this for Ginger? Ginger, Heather & JoJo saw this show live and it is important to her. It is the current episode running on West Viringa public radio. It can be found here...

Jack Eckerd, founder of Eckerd Drugs, was a St Petersburg resident and staunch supporter of the Seed St pete. He also had his own "program" that reportedly, mixed with a wilderness and camp profile, also used some of the 'rap' and confrontation techniques.

I cross posted this on the teen help industry forum, but take a look at this...

Lets see, 12 year old boy gets caught shoplifting bubble gum in 1968 and the judge sentences him to camp "E-How-Kee", the first Jack Eckerd juvenile camp that reportedly used synanon techniques and has had bad press thru the years.

So, the now 51 year old aids patient returns for a visit and surprise, surprise, the former 12 year old bubble gum thief has this to say....

"If it weren't for Jack Eckerd, I'd be dead or in prison," Davids said. "I wouldn't be here."

Lets see, 12 year old boy gets caught shoplifting bubble gum in 1968 and the judge sentences him to camp "E-How-Kee", the first Jack Eckerd juvenile camp that reportedly used synanon techniques and has had bad press thru the years.

So, the now 51 year old aids patient returns for a visit and surprise, surprise, the former 12 year old bubble gum thief has this to say....

"If it weren't for Jack Eckerd, I'd be dead or in prison," Davids said. "I wouldn't be here."

Due to a couple posts I recently deleted I thought I would reiterate a couple things about the Seed discussion Forum.

The forum is loosely moderated, meaning Things can and will get deleted at my discretion. What causes something to get deleted in this forum?

1) Slanderous mean spirited comments. They will not be tolerated and go against the purpose of this website, which is an open dialogue on what occured.

2) Spam. Nuff said, when I see it, I delete it.

3) Flooding, which are posts designed to affect the usablity of the forum. Usually someone will just make multiple nonsensical posts in order to hide or bump down topics. These posts will be deleted.

4) Direct personal attacks. This is harder and more open to interpretation, but the paradagim I try to operate under is attack the idea, not the person. Within this system, it is perfectly fine to say "That is a fucking stupid comment" but not okay to say "you are fucking stupid". This isn't the Seed, and we don't "stand people up and come down on them". Also, the loudest and meanest do not "win" on the SDF. If you wish to make a point, bring an argument or be prepared to have it ripped to shreds. Also, feel free to make an argument without fear of being personally ripped to shreds. These are the goals here.

I hope this clears it up for new posters and readers that weren't clear on it. No subject matter is taboo here, and various and opposing opinions are not only welcome, but encouraged.

Enjoy the forum, and tell your friends who were in the seed to give us a drop by.

Who has found rolling papers on your kid? Joints? Smelled alcohol? Who has had kids that misbehave and are/were unrully?

How did you deal with it, and what was the final result.

I will start. My son, after my divorce, started drinking. He also hung around kids that smoked pot, but to this day says he only tried it once or twice. He also said he like to be around kids on extasy because he found it 'fascinating'.

I immediately, as Art would have suggested, placed him in SAFE under court order.

Just kidding. I showed my displeasure in his decisions but tried to support him. I worried. I saw him drive drunk and had him adamantly profess he 'washnt dhrunk' to my frustrated face.

Last week I went to his college graduation party. He now has a 4 year degree and is planning on teaching school while he applies for graduate school.

I was just thinking of something. I remember while in the seed, if someone 'related' and started analzying something in any way other than how he was expected to think about something, he would be chastised, sometimes severely, for "rationalizing".

Man o man, only in a cult do you get in trouble for using the power of rational thought.

_________________"I think they're very dangerous and destructive. I don't think that anyone should think for you. And that's exactly what cults do. All cults, including Scientology, say, 'I am your mind, I am your brain. I've done all the work for you, I've laid the path open for you. All you have to do is turn your mind off and walk down the path I have created.'" - L. Ron Hubbard, Jr., 1983 Penthouse interview