In 2011, the Sister Wives Blog started out as a place to talk about the TLC reality show "Sister Wives", Kody Brown and his wives Christine, Robyn, Meri and Janelle. Today we not only discuss the show, we discuss Polygamy in our society, and the public perceptions of the Mormon Religion. We discuss "Polygamy USA" and will be covering "My 5 Wives."
This blog is geared towards the adult reader, so please, no one under the age of 18 years. Thank you!

Saturday, September 14, 2013

View From an Audience Member of the UNLV Debate *Sister Wives Exclusive

This
was written by a member of the audience at the UNLV Panel Discussion
Apr 25 that was taped for the upcoming "Sister Wives" episode. A young
adult with an open mind that just is "speaking" what they saw and
thought sent this in, and we are thankful to them for sharing with us.
Let us know what you think.

Since I
saw the previews on the Sister Wives show of the panel discussion
that took place in Las Vegas I thought I should write a post about
what I remember of it.

The
audience in the UNLV auditorium seemed to be divided about the
polygamy issues the Browns and the Ex-polygamists brought up during
the panel discussion or debate. However I have to say, from where I
was sitting and from what I was hearing, I felt the majority of
people were not in favor of any polygamy, no matter how hard the
Browns were trying to make it look like a choice. I also felt the
people who were there in favor of polygamy and the Brown family had
been set up to be there as their support system.

My
friends and I had already read most of the books on polygamy, so I
knew what the panelists and hundreds of thousands of polygamists
across the U.S. have suffered through. I’d also watched most of the
Sister Wives segments, and felt their reason to live polygamy was
because of their LDS and fundamental LDS religious doctrine that says
living polygamy is required on this earth to get to Heaven and not be
damned to hell. This said, it was obvious the Brown’s whole agenda
was to convince the audience they did have a choice to live that
life-style, and it was their right to live polygamy without prejudice
and government interferences.

I could
tell the family had read Kristyn’s book "Fifty Years in Polygamy –
Big Secrets and Little White Lies" before they came onto the show.
That being their main form of rebuttal that polygamy is good. Robyn
talked directly to Kristyn, saying she felt sorry that she’d had
such horrible things happen to her in her family and all around her,
but all she and her mother’s family experiences in polygamy were
happy.

Christine
said she had a wonderful childhood, being raised by her wealthy
father- having their needs met, and from both her mothers who doted
on them. She said she had perfect parents, who never fought and were
exemplary polygamists. She claimed she never knew anything but
happiness in her father’s plural family. But all of that felt
totally contradictory when she told us how devastated she was when
her mother left her father and their belief system. “If all was so
great, why did her mom leave?” I wondered.

Kody
said he didn’t doctrinally know much about his religion, he mostly
lived it because he believed it to be a true principal from the
teachings of his Mormon prophet Joseph Smith, and from other church
leaders who followed his commands. He felt he had a right to live the
way he wanted and that those who criticized his way of life were
those who had misconceptions about polygamy and their choice to live
it, because of evil men like Warren Jeffs and a “few” others who
did vile and evil things.

Meri
also addressed her desire to live polygamy, saying thought it was
sometimes tough, she wanted to live that way because that’s what
she believed in, and therefore it and it was her religious right to
“choose” to do so. She liked having sisters and close family.

Janelle
said she was raised in the LDS church, and was a convert to the
belief after a divorce, and said she wouldn’t do it any other way.

Then it
was the ex-polygamist’s turn to speak.

Willy Steed, from the FLDS community grabbed my heart when he emotionally
talked about hating his life in polygamy, being beat by his father,
watching siblings get beat and yelled at, being taken from school at
age 8 to work for money to contribute to Warren Jeffs, of watching
young boys get hurt and killed on jobs that were completely un-safe
for them.

Kollene
Snow, from the Kingston Clan or the Order, brought me to tears when
she cried her eyes out, while trying to tell how hard it was being
raised in polygamy with too many kids, extreme poverty, while the
leaders wore suits, ate gourmet meals, traveled and had the best
homes with their first wives. She said her father was completely
absent in her life unless he came home to impregnate her mother and
abuse the kids. She grew up being told he was her uncle. She finally
ran from his abusive, violent behaviors and then, believing she had
to for survival sake, complied with an arranged married in order to
get away from being locked up in her aunt’s home. During this time,
Meri handed Kollene a few tissues and put her arm over her shoulder,
exhibiting empathy for Kollene’s life of horrors and proof that the
Brown family and most polygamists are exempt from these repulsive
behaviors.

Kristyn
Decker had only a few minutes to talk. I know she left the Apostolic
United Brethren or Allred group nearly 11 years ago, but she was
asked not to use that description on the show, so she said she “left
another polygamous group.” Since the others ex-polygamists were
specific about the groups they left, I wondered why she didn’t say
so. She talked of her father being the leader of that group, of her
sadness watching her mother’s ongoing heartaches as the first of
her father’s thirteen wives. She said she was sexually and
emotionally abused, and later in life found that her younger sisters
had also endured the same while her dad and their mother (another
wife) ignored and justified the perpetrator’s behavior as
“childhood curiosity.” She said after living polygamy for too
many years, following in her mother’s foot-steps, it became
intolerable, especially as she realized most of her beliefs had been
based on lies and complete deceit.

Christine
Marie talked briefly about becoming a young convert and very active
member in the LDS Church. She believed in all of the doctrine and
teachings, including a prophesy that claims, in the last days the
remaining part of the Book of Mormon would be translated and restored to
the church. (This book is the main force behind the LDS Church that
Joseph Smith was supposed to have translated and never completed.)
Christine said she met a convincing man who appeared Christ-like
deceived her into believing he had translated the rest of the Book of
Mormon. She said it sounded convincing and there were other believers.

This
false prophet even got other people to help him, including the woman
she thought was her primary “sister wife,” and they put her through
hell. She ended up not only being scammed, but raped, beaten, robbed,
and psychologically tortured. He justified her anguish as her needing to
be tested like Job in order to merit eternal life and be worthy of
being with her children throughout eternity. When she could bear no more
and was ready to kill herself, one of her male exploiters revealed that
it was all fraud, none in the group were actually believers, and she
was being taken advantage of in the worst way possible. Even the main
“sister wife” that was involved in this horrific deception of Christine
Marie portrayed herself as a believer when she was actually an atheist.
This experience motivated Christine Marie to start Voices for Dignity as
an advocate for survivors of polygamy and human trafficking.

Then
the fireworks began.

Again
Robyn shared her sadness for what we’d all been through, saying she
was sorry but that’s not the norm in polygamy.

Christine
slid forward and jubilantly exclaimed, “Aunt Kristyn” how nice it
is to see you again. The audience sounded shocked, while she
continued to say how sorry she was that Aunt Kristyn had been through
so much hell in her life, that she had no idea she’d gone through
so much when her own life was so joyous and perfect. She only
remembered good times hanging out with her cousins at Aunt Kristyn’s
home, again saying she didn’t know how bad things were while in the
next statement she said she always feared the evil she heard was
going on all around her.

Kristyn
said there was a whole lot Christine hadn’t seen and was still not
seeing, and that she was happy Christine had had a good life.

Kody
barked out that he is nothing like Kristyn’s ex-husband and those
other men, so polygamy should be a choice without threat and
repercussions for those like him who wanted to live it and are not be
bad people.

Christine
Marie said she agreed, but brought out a long list of research from
Canada’s 7 month debate on whether to decriminalize polygamy or
keep it illegal. She stated a few things about the judge’s findings
stating “polygamy is inherently abusive,” before Kody got mad at
her for judging them.

She
said what she wanted to bring up was years and years of research that
supported more “harms” than not among polygamous families. Kody
got livid again saying we were trying to “paint all polygamists
with the same brush.”

Kristyn
looked at Meri and said, “In public” (she was not allowed to say
“on your Sister Wives show,”) you have said before that you would
not live plural marriage unless you believed you had to. Meri nodded
and mumbled yes.

Then
she looked at Robyn and said, “You just said you—

Robyn
leaned forward on her chair and started yelling at Kristyn, saying,
“Don’t make me out to be a victim! This is the way I want to
live! This is my choice and I’m happy living polygamy in Kody’s
family! And I wouldn’t live this way if I didn’t believe in it!

Things
seemed to escalate a bit from there before professor _ ended the
discussion/debate for Q&A, but at some point before all of that
happened, Kristyn was able to get a word in edgewise to say to Robyn.
“By the way Robyn, thank-you for making my point – you wouldn’t
live this way if you didn’t believe you have to.”

During
the Q&A – the Browns were asked to tell why they believed in
polygamy, what doctrine or belief system dictated those beliefs. All
5 of them hem and hawed refusing or not knowing what to do or to say.
Kristyn got the mike and explained the original LDS doctrine that
originated by Joseph Smith and said the fundamentalists hold tightly to the 132nd
section of the churches’ Doctrine & Covenants where Joseph
Smith states those who don’t live plural marriage will be damned.

After
the panel discussion, while waiting to talk to Kristyn, I heard
Janelle’s oldest son apologized to her for Robyn’s behavior,
saying she easily gets roweled up and when things bother her, but she
didn’t mean to be rude.

I
followed Kristyn while she went over to Christine to invite her to
dinner and gab. She said no, she had other plans. Christine Marie
also came over to where we were standing to invite Christine’s
family to do some photo shoots together. She said, “No we are on
different wave-lengths.” I was quite surprised since Kody had just
stated in public that he and his wives were transparent and not at
all prejudice.

Overall,
I felt the Ex-polygamous case as to why polygamy shouldn’t be lived
as compared to the Brown’s case as to why it is supposedly OK. was much better and well said. I
also felt the Browns were grouchy, mean and defensive toward the
others. I’m glad I was there to see it all.

Oh yes,
and one more thing. As I was leaving, I heard the Sister Wives guy,
who runs the show, say to one of his camera guys, something like;
wow, I never expected that to happen. “I sure wouldn’t do this if
it didn’t make us so much money.”

Does it appear that the Anti-Polygamist group had many rules to
follow... (don't say Allred group) but the Browns had none? Sound off!! Notes:Kristyn Decker's father - Prophet Owen A. Allred.her and Christine are 2nd cousins by birth and Christine's grandmother married the Prophet which makesKristyn her aunt by marriage.

Meri Brown's father was married to several Allred girls, Kody's grandmother was an Allred. Let's face it, it seems they are all related with the exception of Janelle.

Kollene Snow is the dtr of John Daniel Kingston

We will try to feature each of the guests later this week.

BIG thanks to Anonymous who sent this in! __________________________________________________________________________________

The Browns are like any average American family. If every family consisted of four wives and 17 children, that is.

The Browns are polygamists living in Las Vegas, trying to paint a
modern picture of plural marriage. In an attempt to denounce the
negative stereotypes of polygamy, from sexual abuse to forced marriage,
the Browns have put their every move on camera.

The stars of TLC’s Sister Wives, a reality television show centered
around the Brown family, joined UNLV April 25 for a panel discussion. A
crowd gathered in Marjorie Barrick Museum, curious to draw the curtain
back from the life of the polygamous.

“The great thing about [polygamy] is that it was our choice,” said
patriarch Kody Brown. He held his position during the panel in the
center of his four wives — Meri, Janelle, Christine and Robyn. Each time
he spoke they looked at him in admiration.

The women were dressed in contemporary attire — high heels, black
skirts and slacks and brightly colored tops. Their hair was blown out,
their faces made-up and no bonnet in sight.

A member of the crowd stood up and asked if the women were looking to Kody Brown for permission before they spoke.

Meri Brown heatedly grabbed the microphone and said she looks at her
husband because she loves him and when she wants to speak she will. The
audience applauded.

Christine Brown’s aunt, Kollene Star, Kristen Decker and Willie Steed
sat opposite the Kody Brown family, all three from polygamous
backgrounds which they had abandoned.

“I didn’t want to share my husband,” Decker said.

Raised in a polygamous family herself, she felt she had to stay in her own marriage because of her religion.

“I was told that if I didn’t support my husband in plural marriage,
then I wouldn’t be able to see my children in heaven,” Decker said. “It
killed me when my husband left for his honeymoon with his new wife … I
was thinking suicidal [thoughts] when I heard about the details of their
honeymoon.”

Meri Brown, Kody Brown’s first wife, faced Decker and assured her that they wouldn’t be doing this if they didn’t believe in it.

203 comments:

The comments accompanying that article are revealing to say the least. I feel for that poor woman Karen who hasn't seen her daughter and family in years. Never heard of Fred King in Canada....he does sound like a creep...

I was surprised when the article said this: Contributing to the Brown’s success is higher education of the patriarch and matriarchs, a comfortable household wealth and a fortunate blending of personalities, particularly between the sister wives.

Did Kody go to college? I hadn't heard he did and I certainly don't consider high school higher education. Also Meri didn't finish college if I'm recalling correctly while I don't think Robyn and Christine ever attended.

I'm also not sure I'd say they had a comfortable household wealth. They're always talking like they don't have 2 nickels to rub together! As for the "fortunate blending of personalities" ~ no comment!

I was also surprised by that statement, Funky Town! "Higher Education?" I don't think so, unless they went to school in Colorado ir somewhere else with a high elevation, or there HS was up on a hill or something! "Comfortable household wealth?" Huh? Are they always yammering on about their finite finances? And the doozy "Fortunate blending of personalities?" WTF I haven't seen any of that, except maybe between Janelle and Christine. Scratching my head at this article.

Yes, that got my attention as well. So did the comment that any girl of the faith is condeming herself to hell if she doesn't follow the doctrine. I really do find it hard to believe that this family is not rigorously promoting polygamy to the young women of the group. I wonder just how much pressure is applied when the cameras quit rolling.

As someone mentioned before the Browns do seem to be selling Plyg Lyte, but I wonder how true that is to their real life. I'd like to know more about what their beliefs actually are.I think Meri really believes this stuff. It is my understanding that a man needs a minimum number of wives to qualify for a Personal Planet Plyg and that more wives gets you into the really nice celestial subdivisions or something like that.But do women need to have a minimum number of earthly children to qualify for the Maternity for Eternity gig? Is that why Meri is so wound up about the baby business?But on the other hand, I also thought that husbands can call any wife (or any woman for that matter) to the Blessed Booty Call.I'm confused.

I thought they aimed for 9 wives, but admit to not knowing too much about it. What is confusing about the Browns is that they say they're living this lifestyle due to religious beliefs but don't seem very religious. God doesn't seem to be the center of their lives, outside of a few stale references to Him and unenthusiastic Sunday services. Robyn, the longer she lives in this family, is increasingly shedding her "shy" and "self-effacing" veneer and making herself the center of attention with aggressive, unpleasant and opinionated comments to people. Sad.

I agree with everyone above. If you are living this because of religious reasons, first of all, shouldn't you be able to point to areas in your religion's dogma that backs up what you are doing? Shouldn't you be able to explain that?

I am a lapsed Catholic but I can quickly and easily explain the Catholic church's stand on birth control and divorce with no problem. I never received any kind of in-depth higher education or training on the church's beliefs, just attended Sunday school until I was around 14. So if I were say, practicing the rhythm method because the church mandates I do so, I'd like to believe I could explain if asked.

So why is it that it appears the Browns cannot explain where their religion says this or point to anything to back them up? If they are indeed, having church services in their homes for their children, they should know a heck of a lot more about their religion than they appear to! If you can't explain it when asked directly, how can you explain your religion's beliefs to your children?

Lots of questions raised by this and THANK YOU to the person that attended and submitted this write up to Mister Sister. Also thank you to the posters that have more first hand knowledge that are sharing that with us.

That article was inaccurate. The author did not do his research. Higher education and comfortable wealth? I guess if you can declare bankruptcy multiple times and go on public assistance then you have comfortable wealth?

The reporter probably based this statement on his interview with the Browns. They are champions at putting lipstick on the pig. They drop random words into sentences that give impressions rather than facts. Just like Kody's tweet that said "I make $$$"

Contributing to the Brown’s success is higher education of the patriarch and matriarchs, a comfortable household wealth and a fortunate blending of personalities, particularly between the sister wives.

You have to admit, they are doing very well from the show. It's been said they got a HUGE chunk for doing season 2.

We also know that a lot of people say a lot of things. I can say I got a big chunk from my job. No one knows and there are many supporting examples out there of people that did the reality show thing and didn't get big chunks even though their viewership was quite high.

As far as I'm concerned, unless I see a tax return, I won't believe they get enough from TLC to support this lifestyle.

I don't believe it either, Funky Town. I believe they do get larger than average chunks of money from book royalties,appearances etc. But as a true steady income? I doubt it.

I *do* think they have a 'fake it till you make it' attitude that seems very common in the MLM world. You can't let anyone know you are living in a house of cards because they won't buy in, then, right? :-)

True Kim. I see that in relatives that have done the MLM thing. You have to put the façade up so people believe you are successful.

I don't know any way to calculate what they might have gotten in book royalties, but usually for first time authors it isn't much and I'm not sure their book was a big seller.

Appearances may pay them something or sometimes it might be quid pro quo.

I do think the Brown lifestyle is a house of cards and I worry about the kids mostly. They've been dragged through leaving Lehi, rental homes, will we get the McMansions and now they're in them. The next step could very well be a tough one although I hope they really can support themselves in the McMansions so the kids don't have to deal with yet more stress and upheaval because of Kody's lifestyle choices.

I'm going to put a positive spin on this and say i think the kids are ultimately going to be ok BECAUSE of what they're experiencing firsthand from this trainwreck the adults are creating for them. These kids all have brains that will most likely mature to the point of one day computing to them, " Thanks, moms and dad - but NO THANKS to repeating all your mistakes with us in regards to becoming plygs ourselves!" Mariah seems to be the only one so far that's committed fully to repeating it simply because she's had a completely different experience in the family than all the rest of her siblings have.

Anon @ 10:01 - I hope you are right! I'd love nothing more than to see them distance themselves from polygamy, go into the world and succeed.

Sadly I think you're correct about Mariah, but should she get to a place where she marries someone that intends to be polygamist, she may very well find herself in a much different situation than her mother. Even if she should be a first wife, that is no guarantee that you are the 'queen'. Stories abound of first wives tossed over and being a second class citizen after new wives join the family.

yes, Funky Town and then it will be sadly too late for her if that's how it turns out. She will be stuck and will finally understand how miserable her other moms were (and even including her own). But i DO think she'll definitely choose it (and make sure she's first wife as well) based solely on her own uniquely mostly happy experience with it and a complete lack of her current understanding how different it is for the wives as well as all her siblings.

I have said it before, I will say it again... they are full of *&%# The Polygamy life that they lead is taught through their "religion" is NOT a choice.They live it or they are forever damned. Their salvation depends on it according to the original teachings of Joseph Smith, the basis for the AUB (the group the Browns are from) and the FLDS and other "independent" groups out there including the groups in Canada. They live it or they will not see their children in the afterlife. They live it or they will be cast out with nothing… no home, no food, no family, no children, no friends… NOTHING… Tell me where this is a choice. If a child is raised to believe this then they will follow the teachings because they do not want to be damned...

My husband (Ed Kociela) wrote 'plygs' a fact based journalistic novel about the FLDS after working at the paper in St. George UT as an Editor and columnist for 16 years. He has done a lot of research and discusses just that in the book. Since the pub of 'plygs' it has been amazing to get involved with the wonderful people that have left or that help members leave the community. Their word is a LOT more trust worthy than the Browns. lets face it, it IS and will forever be a TV show... They will say and do what it takes for the ratings.

As for the $$ end of things, if it were not for the show I am quite sure they, like 90% of polygamous families would be living off of you and me...

Cara, I viewed the archived episode of your husband's appearance on Doris Hanson's show early this morning, and I bought his book for my Kindle. I'm really looking forward to reading it as well as the book written by Kristyn Decker: Fifty Years of Polygamy: Big Secrets and Little White Lies. His work, and your words, too, are both extremely important, and I thank the two of you for shining a bright light upon the subject of polygamy.

I wrote a long comment that required some time to compose, but I must have inadvertently hit something on my keyboard that completely evaporated it. Phooey!! I'll trim what I wrote and hope I can successfully post this b/f I recreate my mistake. :/

This is such a serious subject because so many people continue to suffer within polygamy. In addition to the abuse of power against women and children, the threat of eternal damnation, if they reject the rules of their communities, leaves a profound wound upon the escapees. Many of these courageous individuals will never have contact with their loved ones left behind because of enforced shunning. I watched a number of Doris Hanson's shows over the past several days, and the individual stories of what women endured has left an indelible impression upon me, and compelled me to investigate further. As your husband stated, Cara, if polygamy is decriminalized, it's a huge step BACKWARD.

What is clear to me is that the Brown family has put a pleasing sheen on their relationship. Perhaps the individual members of that family believe it most of the time, but I don't think I'm mistaken about having seen fracture points in Christine, Meri, Janelle, and even Sobbyn that reveal insecurity, confusion, loneliness, and jealousy. I have no doubt that each of these women truly love Kody and that they want their family to thrive. However, it was very revelatory that Meri questioned what her current place in the family is if she is not going to have another child. As many other posters have correctly pointed out, this contradicts previous statements she has made about ALL the children being hers as well as the children of the other mothers. (In particular, I recall her claiming Logan as her son, too, when his transition to college was fast-approaching.) Her fear and unhappiness were so evident on last week's episode, and I believe that the sadness regarding her infertility, as compared to her sister wives who had multiple children, is something that has torn at her throughout the years since Mariah's birth and her miscarriage about 5-6 yrs. ago. For Kody, everything is multiplied, just as he exclaims in his opener for each show, and why not??!! He gets the devoted attention of all 4 women and 4 houses of children. I think the women are emotionally neglected, despite his protestations.

So many intelligent, thoughtful individuals contribute to this blog, as well as the marvelous folks who maintain it. I keep saying this, but it bears repeating: I have become far more enlightened from reading here, and because of this, I am going to read everything I can get my hands on. I live in Arizona and feel I should become involved with the organizations who are trying to help people who are trying to leave the repressive, abusive communities.

Thank-you, Cara, and I thank all of you who write such important things on this blog. :-)

WOW! Thank you Giltee Guilt for kind and encouraging words. We are glad that people such as yourself are understanding the importance behind what we write and the views we have. It is great to see folks understanding that polygamy is not everything they see on TV, thus the reason ed wrote 'plygs'. We would go to the store and see a young girl (about 14 or 15) with an infant and wonder if it was her sibling or her child. It is truly heart wrenching.

I too am grateful for this meeting place and though we have a lot of fun poking at the Browns, it is nice to see the serious side of the issue come out. I have a very fond place in my heart for the admin of this page :)

I would love to tell you that the more you read the easier it gets, but sadly that would be a lie. Just always know that we are just a message away and we are happy to answer any questions you may have.

i've read countless books and articles, watched countless videos and docs, and done personal research on relgious polygamy. the ONLY time that my heart wasn't turned inside out was in reading Joanne Hank's IT'S NOT ABOUT THE SEX, MY ASS! omg- so refreshing to actually find someone who was able to find some humor in their godawful ridics plyg situation and she might be the only lucky one enough to do so!

yes, it had some relatable despairing moments, too; but thankfully, there was no firsthand accounts by her of any physical or sexual abuse w/children in her own sect. she knows she is lucky to have been spared any of that which definitely exists pretty prevalently in the secretive and reclusive plyg world. like janelle, she was raised mainstream mormon instead of plyg.

anyway, it's a great refreshing and relatively short read when you just don't think you can handle one more devastatingly sad and depressing plyg book to read and you need to be able to laugh along with someone who saw the absurdity of it all and describes it so tongue-in-cheek snarkiness. :) She's got her groove back on now and loving her sane and new life w/her beaufriend Steve Cuno who helped her write/publish her book.

When I watched the BBC video snippet that Mister Sister put up on an earlier thread, it struck me how hard Kody was putting himself out there, trying to get a TV gig. And no wonder: There they are, perpetrating their particular brand of BS--that they're sooo different, the're 'plyg light' or something. However, we all know now that even while Christine stood there smiling and doting over Kody and the kids, she had food stamps in her immediate future (or was already using them), and there were recent or looming bankruptcies all over the place.

It's easy to believe the hardships about anything so I expect nothing else from people who had a hard life in polygamy. Couple that with the lifestyle being taboo and you have the idea that anyone speaking positively about it is somehow wrong or brainwashed. Each party is entitled to their beliefs and feelings toward polygamy but us outsides we don't give it a fair chance....especially people who frequent this site. I think it's sad. How are we any less brainwashed by all the bad we here about polygamists vs the polygamist who see nothing wrong with the way they live?

I don't believe we are brainwashed on this site. Many of us have taken the time to read everything that has been put on this blog, several of which were firsthand accounts by people that have lived polygamy. We've also been privileged to hear from people that have investigated polygamy, helped people leave polygamy after they themselves escaped and also from people that still have family trapped in polygamy.

I can't believe all the books out there and the people that have shared with us on this site are all wrong. That would be like saying the earth is flat when it's been shown not to be. I think personally that the only polygamists that see nothing wrong with the lifestyle are people that are in charge, so they are getting everything THEY want or people like the Browns that think as long as they aren't abusing their children or having sex with underage girls, it's okay.

We SEE the despair and hopelessness on Brown family faces, we see them struggling with jealousy, dislike and all the rest. How does that make us brainwashed? I have seen with my own eyes how miserable they are. I don't believe they put that act on for TV. I believe they try to hide it from everyone, hence the emotional eating. Just my 2 cents.

I certainly don't feel brainwashed by this site either. When Sister Wives first started airing, I watched with true interest in how this family would live their lives. I was hoping to see a happy, normal family doing what normal families do. I definitely was not judgmental in any way. However, almost from the beginning, I saw wives who seemed to be making all the sacrifices. I saw a husband with an extremely big ego, who pranced around from wife to wife oblivious to their feelings and jealousies. I saw a man who courted a new wife while one of his other wives was pregnant and giving birth. I saw a father who didn't seem to be doing any of the parenting. Most of all I saw very unhappy women who were insecure and jealous. Women whose self-confidence crumbled whenever they even thought about their "man" showing affection to another wife. If this show was supposed to help me understand polygamy in the modern world and to feel that there is nothing wrong with the way they live, then it has failed miserably. Where I used to think that there really wasn't anything inherently wrong with consenting adults choosing this "lifestyle", I now see that the women in this "lifestyle" really don't consent but endure out of a belief that they will be condemned to hell if they don't.

Loud applause for Funky Town! Wonderful response to Anonymous 6:38. There is poverty, malnutrition, and rotten abuse going on in those closed-off polygamous groups. When people are forced into submission b/c they believe that they will be eternally damned if they don't adhere to their leaders, that isn't a freedom of choice, Anon.

I don't think that Kody Brown has ever physically abused his 4 wives or his children, and I believe he loves them. However, I think it's pretty clear that there's been some emotional damage and neglect that has occurred from his rotation routine. If you can watch Sister Wives and honestly declare that you don't see sadness and loneliness in those women, and the stark need in the kids for attention from Kody, well, I guess there's no point in my trying to point it out to you.

Contributors to this blog have been pretty fair overall, and have been willing to watch and reflect upon what they see in the shows before they comment. People have debated things back and forth when an issue has arisen, and separate points of view are respected, even when there's a difference of opinion.

Furthermore, the administrators of this blog have carefully protected the underage children by removing negative posts that have targeted or included them, and they have also clamped down when a post fails to comport with the stated guidelines. This blog has been a remarkable source of education for me and for many others who have praised its content on these very pages. Again, the range of opinions on this blog is why I keep returning to it.

I do make room for your concern that it can be easy to pile on with negative comments about something that is considered a taboo in our society. However, in this particular situation relating to the show Sister Wives, I feel Kody Brown and his wives have had ample opportunities to acquaint the public with their unique brand of polygamy. As viewers, we have the right to opine about the oppression we see in the wives for whom love is definitely divided and not multiplied.

Just read Anonymous 11:10 pm's comment and completely concur on every single point. Your analysis of the Brown's version of polygamy is dead-on accurate. I hope that Anonymous 6:38 pm will return to read it, too.

Here is the defination of brainwashing......... brain·wash·ing [breyn-wosh-ing, -waw-shing] Show IPAnoun1.a method for systematically changing attitudes or altering beliefs, originated in totalitarian countries, especially through the use of torture, drugs, or psychological-stress techniques.2.any method of controlled systematic indoctrination, especially one based on repetition or confusion: brainwashing by TV commercials.3.an instance of subjecting or being subjected to such techniques: efforts to halt the brainwashing of

You summed it up nicely when you said Kody loves his family and doesn't seem as if he's been abusive physically.

Mentally, that's another story. I do believe he mentally abuses Christine by what he says and his attitude toward her. She's not important to him and she knows it. Of course the emotional damage is there too as you said.

I appreciate that you've taken the time to write such thought provoking posts. Hope to see more of you in the future.

I started watching SW with an open mind, willing to believe it worked for them. It was the cracks displayed on the show itself that lead me to suspect that all nonsense. After I heard about the bankruptcies and the food stamps, I knew it was all a fake sham. Polygamy leaves the children in poverty. Usually the women too. Every "wife" has declared bankruptcy and all the children (except perhaps Mariah) have been on public assistance. YEs they lived in a nice house in Lehi (bought by Janelle with her salary - she later put Kody and Meri on the title), but lets face it, those kids got public assistance, some of them, because their mothers didn't put Kody on their birth certificates, claiming they didn't know the father. They were "single" mothers, with no child support. Kody is just as much an abuser in that regard as every plyg man who neglects his multiple broods of wives and children and leaves them in poverty or at the subsistance of the taxpayer, while he goes off and sires more. There is no difference.

These women CHOSE that lifestyle (meaning they are grifters all, to lie to be on government assistance to live this lifestyle) but the children are victims - as is the American taxpayer. Polygamy is an oppressive system. It leaves the most vulnerable in poverty. It creates a burden for our society.

And the men? They're the ones demanding children they can't support, telling women they have to have many to be exalted in heaven. That they have to please the men to get pulled through the veil. They set women up to compete against eachother for their favor. Ignore their sons, tell their daughters to keep sweet. We've seen a watered down version of all of this on the show, but scratch Kody and he flares up in anger and speaks his true mind - which to me is not far off the mark of the worst fundamentalists - he just doesn't have their power. But the tendency is there, and the outcome is there. Polygamy is an inherently opppressive system for women and children for the benefit of the few men who practice it. It should be outlawed. This isn't due to "brainwashing". Just watch the show and it is all there.

I don't care if Meri, Janelle, Christine, and Robyn are genuinely happy. I don't care if their choices were made with free will. The point is their plyg lifestyle has produced 17 children who have an idiot for a father and who all must live the plyg lifestyle under threat of going to Hell. It's always about the Brown adults and their choices, when the focus should be on the examples they're setting for their children. Those kids are one cancelled show away from food stamps and foreclosure. All 5 grifters are lousy parents -yes, even Janelle and Christine.

“Robyn Brown is the most recent addition to the family. She was born and raised in the religion. Robyn’s first marriage ended after eight years due to abuse and miscommunication. ‘We were monogamous until the end because he was not worthy of another wife,’ Robyn said.”

Hmmmmm....not "worthy"? As compared to her---who is someone's FOURTH choice?

1st of all, i find it abuse to be alienated from a nice, decent birth father becuase your mom wants to be a plyg. ROBYN

I know first hand there was no abuse. If any, maybe you should check what HE requested in the divorce...no drinking in front of the kids... and HE wanted the divorce. He won't speak out for his parents are still much AUB; but this friends will. I will say nothing more, but now you know.

Anony - don't worry, most of us here have long suspected as much re:robyn dissing her ex. we know there's another side to the story that we're not privy of and Sobbin's very manipulative and taking advantage of her advantages. He might actually be a complete jerk like she would have us to believe but without any examples/proof to base it on. He might also just be glad to have her gone out of his hair and into Kody's. The fact remains is that Robyn's in the wrong to discuss him one-sidedly publicly in the way that she does if nothing else because he's her kids' father and they don't need to hear it from her. She's doing them harm and she's not winning us over in the automatic sympathy w/that unfair tactic either.

We're not in her "manipulation" tribe! Personally, she's lied too many times and shown how dishonest she is (won't pay her debtors in full so she can get into an expensive home for starters) to have any automatic credibility in her offhand mudslinging comments about the ex. yeah - don't get me started on her b.s. "stole" my purity diatribe. oy!

I stand with Anonymous 9:18 pm re: the response to Anonymous 6:57 pm. Most discerning viewers understand that Sobbyn's 3 children from her first marriage are being deprived of spending sustained, important time with their father. This is precious time for all 4 of them that can never be recaptured, and I feel very sad for David, Sr., David, Jr., Arielle, and Brianna. (Might have misspelled their names, but I refuse to call the oldest one "Day-Un".) Sobbyn has so easily lied throughout the seasons of Sister Wives, without a blink or a flinch, that nothing would surprise me in terms of the extent of her deceits.

Her attempt to make the loss of her virginity look like it was a highly-pressured move on the part of an aggressive, overpowering, horny boyfriend was an epic fail. It is despicable that she used her overacted "testimony" about losing her precious jewel in front of the children, particularly the 3 kids from her first marriage whom she boldly wishes Kody could have biologically fathered. Those poor kids!

I doubt very much that David, Sr. went into Victoria's Secret and bought $1000 worth of merchandise to add to the mountain of debt that she hasn't yet tackled with the creditors.

Do I have trouble believing that her ex wanted her to be prohibited from drinking in front of the 3 kids? Nope. I completely believe it. She's a real piece of work who completely put herself out there for Kody to spot @ that gathering after she caught wind about the Browns doing a T.V. show. She wanted the fame, adulation, and money, and knew she could sideline the 3 older wives by being a cunning, alluring new piece. Blech.

Looking at things from a viewer's standpoint, I personally think Robyn's crazy. And no matter what comes out of her mouth, I dont think she has a true care in the world for her sister wives. Too many signs in the very first season of the show prove it before she was "married". And she's even worse now! That MSWC scene where she asked Kody to "support the situation" when Janelle wanted to walk away really pissed me off. Her constant manipulation, crying, neediness, and the fact that one of the boys even pointed out that she gets raweled up easily shows us that she's in desperate need of some therapy. Sometimes I think that Robyn and Christine may have suppressed a lot of things from early childhood. Or at least try. Christine probably being more successful.

"Crazy" and clinical depression and dysfunction ALWAYS gets worse over the years when left untreated - by competent professional counseling (and sometimes w/appropriate meds included, too.) ALL these women's emotional probs have grown deeper over the years - not just Robyn's. They ALL need pro help and deprogramming but are clueless that they do and why.

I often find myself wondering what effect keeping sweet and burying their emotions has on these women's health. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that they have high blood pressure and other stress related health issues.

Not to say none of us do, but it seems that it would be more prevalent in this type of family where you can't ever really say what you want because it may hurt another sister wife or cause your husband to skip his night at your home.

MrSpock - I don't understand her phrase either, that her first husband 'was not worthy of another wife.' It's definitely meant as a negative heaped onto her ex. From a PR point of view, she needed to explain how she could 'suddenly' go into a plural wife situation, why not simply say something like, 'we were not called to it during our marriage.' and leave it there. Why not use non blaming language? I am surprised the Brown's haven't consulted a PR person to help figure out some basic statements to use in these circumstances.

As others have said Anon 6:57 pm, many of us realize there is another side of the divorce we haven't heard.

Hi, Candy...I really cannot speak for Kristyn or Kody. Anything I would say would be conjecture and I certainly would not want to be misleading. Besides, "Why?" is almost always a personal and difficult question to answer. I do agree that from what I have seen, Kody does not seem to be terribly well-versed in religious ideology. I will say, however, that it is very common to get non-answers when asking people involved with polygamy why they are involved with polygamy.

As far as the religion aspect, we know that plural marriage is, essentially, considered by fundamentalist Mormons as the gateway to the Celestial Kingdom, the key to their eternal salvation, something they are taught from a very young age.

I meant that she was not allowed to used the term Allred group or AUB - do you feel as a newspaper writer that was fair?"Kristyn Decker had only a few minutes to talk. I know she left the Apostolic United Brethren or Allred group nearly 11 years ago, but she was asked not to use that description on the show, so she said she “left another polygamous group.”

Most Mormons don't really know that much about what their church teaches as doctrine so I can believe that the Browns can't defend polygamy doctrinally.

One thing that strikes me in all this is that people forget that Kody's parents converted from the LDS church to the AUB while he was on a mission. When he came home, he began studying it, and converted as well. I think this is one of the reasons his wives are his age, not young girls just entering puberty like in the FLDS group. Given enough time, I can imagine Kody's group morphing into the same thing.

The only clue to Kristyn not being allowed to say AUB or Allred Group, is I think because Kody and Krew told their religious leaders they wouldn't mention the name of the polygamous cult they belonged to. I'm guessing TLC also enforced this on Kristyn, because people would have realized that she was from the same group. It's all hooey anyway. Everyone knows the Browns are AUB.

ex AUB - I agree. it wasn't hard for me to find out at all on the very first episode that these people belonged to the AUB org. Google is my best friend! :) but yeah - the word's been out on the street far and wide for more than a couple of years now but I doubt Kody and the Kodettes are in good standing w/the AUB anymore anyway and the AUB wouldn't want to be associated with them even LESS now than they were in the "oh, we're all so happy and religious" season 1 they tried to portray. AUB has enough probs of their own without dealing w/the headache of the loony high-maintenance Browns in their midst.

Anonymous 6:38. The reason it is hard to believe they are happy is because of the things they say and the way they act. Sorry, but you can not have it both ways, you can not say we are "married" then treat each wife as a single mom.If they were a real famliy, he would not have his kids on welfare. They would not expect to be taken care of by the state. Why is it ok for me and my family to have to do without, no medical, no food stamps because as a FAMILY unit we have made too much durring bad times, but as long as they cry they are single moms they can get it all. If they were a REAL family, no matter what the law says, they would take care of them self's, just like a real family does. You can not play both sides. This does nothing for their fight to be seen as a ligit family. also all the filings of bankruptcy in the wife's names says a lot about how messed up this lifestyle is.

I am very open minded about how others live their lives. If...and this is a BIG if..if they were supporting them self's and all living in one home as a family does I would believe in them more as a family. I know they are making money right now, but they were not making enough in the past. How can someone follow a lifestyle that promotes having more kids then you can take care of? How is that ok?

If they were all so happy, they would all be living in the same house, not making comments about having privacy. How is it happy saying i do this because my religion tells me, not because I enjoy it. How can you be happy knowing your husband is having sex and children with someone else, even worst, someone you don't really like?

There has yet to be a polygamist family that is have heard about that really puts the truth out there that the lifestyle is great. If it is so great, how about telling the truth and answering the real questions, not all the fluff.This family put them self out there, they should be much more truthful to be believed.

I have to agree. If they were happy in this lifestyle, the wives would live as they did in Lehi. I started watching season 1 with an open mind and hoping to see that this lifestyle worked for them. I believe then it probably did, more so than not. They appeared to be mostly happy where now they appear unhappy in most shows.

I realize they claim there were zoning laws in Las Vegas and all kinds of reasons they couldn't build a home like they had in Lehi, but I'd bet it they'd moved out of LV just a bit they could have done so. I think they just don't want to live with each other any longer because they are finally free to be who they want to be, rather than someone that 'kept sweet' while in one home in Lehi so they could get along with each other.

Do you have to be a college grad to have an opinion on a polygamous marriage? I mean really, I can think of most women holding no degree whose opinions are just as valid. I have a university degree but find all these questions about their education, very condescending and insulting to the women.I think Kody benefits the most from this arrangement for merely have sexual privileges every evening while the wives have to wait for their two nights to come up. That to me is a little degrading but if they don't see it that way, why does anyone care. I think the wives do all the cooking, cleaning, laundry, etc. I have yet to see Kody do any of these things but this is true in too many monogamous relationships as well.This family cannot be compared to the FLDS who followed the so-called prophet (and pervert) Warren Jeffs. In his own words, "they'd hang him from the highest tree if people know the things he did." I was so proud of Rebecca for her independence and fight for freedom which revealed so many sickening acts. I wondered how that many people could be so brainwashed still. I believe the mothers love their children and don't want to lose them but they should be able to live their life styles like the Browns who would have no problem telling Kody "oh no you di - int!"These FLDS women are living under threats of hell, abuse, etc. I don't understand why this community still exists. I don't worry too much about the Brown family, regardless of who is college educated. Have you ever considered that some people just can't afford to attend college, have not been encouraged to attend college, etc. It does not mean that any of us are more intelligent than anyone with a high school education. Come on!

When you live in a fringe society you still crave ordered rules of society and leadership and protection. Because its illegal and there are no supports they lean on others like them and live close to each other. Unlike the rest of us there are no checks on power. We can vote out a mayor or president. Their leaders do not have term limits. They can do whatever because they don't think we will help them.

"Good Will Hunting": remember Matt Damon's character asserts that he got the same education as the Harvard grad but with only owing $5 in library fines?It doesn't matter what anyone labels their acquired knowledge with. Smart is smart.

yeah, i haven't seen anyone here saying they're dumb because they don't have a college education. i think we all know plenty of "not so smart" college degreed peeps! and likewise, i know some VERY intelligent and successful high school grads or even dropouts. the beef is how this journalist described them which was simply inaccurate.

otoh - i don't consider any of the Browns idiots nor much above just plain average in intellect. which is fine. we don't get to pick our intellect necessarily. it's just what we do to improve and expand ourselves regardless of i.q. that's important.

Clearly Kody is in this for religious reasons, as are the wives. Its common knowledge that a woman cant reach the celestial kingdom (the top level of heaven taught by LDS) without being married to a priesthood holder. As a former endowed temple wed member of the Mormon church, we are told this is our highest goal and our children will not be with us if we marry outside of the church or divorce.The fundementalist groups all go on the original teaching of Joseph Smith, that polygamy is the only way to exaltation. The LDS for mainly political reasons in Utah dropped this, however do not think that this is not what is still taught in our faith. It is still taught that a)we will revert to polygamy in the Millenial reign (the 1000 years following the Second Coming) and b)that polygamy is practised in Heaven, and that the most worthy men will be given 7 wives each and this is the highest honour God can give. The LDS also still teach that women who for reasons outside of their control dont have a chance to get married, but have kept themselves pure their entire lives (ministering angels) will be given as wives to those men offered the honour of 7.Kody served a mission for the LDS and must be trying to be obtuse if he claims to not be doing this for any other reason than because this is what his faith dictates.

1. Seems like a lopsided "heaven" where women outnumber the men. How can that be?2. How does LDS doctrine respond to verses such as Luke 20:34-36 and Matthew 22:30, e.g., that there are no marriages in heaven? Not trying to start a religious debate---I'm just curious.3. How about "pure" non-married men---what happens to them?

I agree, Anonymous 7:58...or Christ's dying on the cross would have been for naught. The Bible also states that there will be no male or female in heaven. I don't know that much about LDS so I don't know if they put other books above the Bible. If they do, I don't understand how they can call themselves Christian. Just saying...

Hi Mr Spock.....will try to answer....1)its lopsided because women are far more likely to be righteous and pure than men, hence why there are more of us. 2)I have been trying to leave the church for a few years (which is incredibly hard and even reading this blog and saying what Im saying causes severe guilt for me) I have read the King James Old and New about five times and must say I havent noticed those so will be looking them up soon. I just know that we are taught that that is what happens to our ministering angels. Thanks for the heads up.Will get back to you on those. 3)pure unmarried men are almost unheard of. They are taught to marry as soon as they get back from the mission field and the prophets teach that men unmarried after 30 are "menace to society" and are considered "special interest" as they need to be counselled as to why they have been unable or too fussy to have found a wife. Anon 7 58 I too would like to believe that God doesnt require marriage to enter heaven (im now divorced from my abusive returned missionary husband) but its simply not what we are taught in LDS faith. And its a daily struggle not to be overwhelmed with guilt and horror at being a failure in marriage.Anon 8 36 Technically Christians are people who believe in Christ. Yes the LDS do believe in him so its not really correct to say they arent Christian. Its the doctrine of Christ and how its applied that sets the LDS apart.Trust me, its a complex religion to understand, to join and to leave. Im torn. There are days when I would give my left arm to be the fifth wife of Kody Brown because I believe what he does and practises and want to be exalted. Then I have the other days when I think are you kidding me you fool. Its hard. I understand more than most why the first three wives will never leave, plus I also understand where RObyn is coming from as well.

Anonymous 8:36 p.m.: The Bible does not say there will be no male or female in heaven. You must be thinking of Galatians 3:27-29: "27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise." What those verses mean is that believers in Christ all have the same standing with God---not that our characteristics such as male or female disappear.

Anonymous 9:16: Thank you for your answers. I am sorry you are having such a struggle with your church and deciding what to do...that can be extremely difficult as we all have fears about the unknown and what is out there after we die. For me, I found freedom through Jesus, John 8:36. Belief in His saving grace (John 3:16-17) is truly freedom. Blessings.

Anon 9:16 I really feel for your struggles. The guilt and fear element of Mormon based religions is huge, not to mention the social aspect where having friends and family in the religion puts you very much on the outside when you leave. Hang in there, try and find a new support group, and given time, you will feel free of all this angst

Mr Spock, the Mormon church squares the verses you mentioned by claiming that Jesus Himself was married, and their proof of that is His first miracle where He turned the water into wine. In their theology, they claim this was Jesus and Mary Magadaline's wedding. They also have Jesus married to Mary and Martha, the two sisters of Lazarus whom He raised from the dead.

Anonymous 9:16, I feel for you, and would urge you to read your Bible, and check out the ministry of Shawn McCarty of Born Again Mormon. He does a very good job of explaining things as he's an ex-Mormon who converted to Christianity. You can find his TV on youtube. Just so you know, my parents left the Mormon church before I was born, but all my ancestors where Mormon settlers, with at least one 3rd great grandfather very high up in the church, and the cousin of the Mormon's version of the Apostle Paul [Parley Pratt] who was murdered by the legal husband of his 12th wife. I have at least 3 3rd great grandfathers who had 4 or more wives, on as young as 13 when he married her!!!

Anonymous I appreciate your insight and as Mr. Spock said, I too am sorry you're having such a struggle about your religion. I hope that you find the way that will make you feel fulfilled personally and religiously.

i, personally, have found the most gratifying and personal freedom in Buddhism, which contrary to some erroneous beliefs, is not even a religion! i love meditation and the zen teachings of Buddhism that resonate with me over my 50+years of Christianity beliefs. I will never belong to any organized religion again. Mormon polygamists do not have a corner on the market for toxic religious beliefs or practices for sure. I've found it in most organized religions period. no thanks!

Anonymous 9:16. I had my name removed from the church at the first if this summer. It was incredibly hard emotionally, but after receiving the final letter, I feel free. I did it alone, keeping it from my LDS family and my evangelical in laws. I'm not looking for a new faith, just leaving one that wasn't for me. Good luck

Anonymous 9:16, I'm so sorry that you are torn right now! One key passage that really explains why God does not require marriage for salvation is Ephesians 2:8-9 which says, "For it is by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is a gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

No good work (not marriage, not going on a mission, not reading the Bible, not even baptism), NO good work results in salvation. Salvation is a gift of God that we can never, ever earn. That's why Sister Wives makes me so sad as these women "grin and bear it" while thinking this is going to save them. I will be praying for you as you find your way out, and I would urge you to find a local church that can provide support and love for you during such a hard time.

Anonymous 9:16, I can empathize with your plight. I am an Ex-Mormon convert with a very faithful Mormon father (my mother and sibs never converted.) For several years my life revolved around the church and my calling as a Primary school teacher. I had been struggling with LDS doctrine vs what I had been taught as a child in a Lutheran church. One Sunday I was giving my testimony to a bunch of wide eyed 7 and 8 year old children, and realized that I was lying to them, lying to myself, but most importantly I was lying to Heavenly Father. I urge you to pray for guidance as to what feels right for you. For me, once I realized I felt the way I did, I started researching the history of the church. I highly recommend any LDS members that are questioning their faith start by researching the history of the endowment ceremony.

I recommend Recovery from Mormonism and New Order Mormon (a group for LDS members who choose to remain active.) I wish you the best, whatever you decide!

ANONY 3:40 - i also HIGHLY RECOMMEND the website mormonthink.com as it's written by about 50 former mormons as well as some still current ones that have to lay low to keep from being disfellowshipped or even ex-communicated for helping getting the true facts out to everyone - including clueless fellow members. It's very in-depth and very factual and a great and easy informative read to learn the truth about any and all things mormon. Things the mormon missionaries won't tell you because they most likely don't even know most of the true info themselves!

First, realize that this was all done before TV cameras. We will have to watch the show to see how it plays out -- in other words, what remains and what is cut. I know that my wife Cara and I attended a forum here in St. George at Dixie College that featured members of the Centennial Park polygamist group. The women from Centennial Park were clearly playing to the cameras. A National Geographic Network crew was filming the forum and, interestingly, did a huge editing job on the answers these women gave and eliminated some questions and comments that really should have been in the show, including an impassioned question and statement by a woman who came from a polygamous background and had been sexually abused from childhood on. She did not make the cut. In fact, the NatGeo people only included two questions from the forum -- one from me, another from another audience member. Now, interestingly, I was not identified as the author of the book, even though several of the women on the panel clearly recognized me, which I think was not proper context for the show.

As far as the forum with the Browns, it was conducted in Las Vegas and fairness? Well, let's just say a forum is only as fair as the forum moderator allows it to be. As a newspaperman, of course I don't think it was fair to be so one-sided. But, again, they were playing for the cameras. I will need another reply space to answer a little further on this so bear with me.

OK...hope this works...Your question about anti-polygamy folks being censored in Utah is very good and, well, rings true. You see, the previous Utah Attorney General, Mark Shurtleff, and his successor, John Swallow, have stated that they will not pursue charges against anybody in the state for violation of the bigamy/polygamy statutes, even though there are laws on the books. And, as you know, the Browns have a suit filed challenging the legality of the state statutes.

I believe the reason Shurtleff and Swallow refuse to prosecute polygamy is because of the ties and importance it had in the founding of the LDS church and fundamental Mormon beliefs. Modern-day fundamentalists consider themselves to be the true followers of the Book of Mormon and that the mainstream LDS sold out their religion by giving up polygamy to attain statehood (during Brigham Young's tenure as Prophet and President of the LDS church.) There are a lot of mainstream LDS who have deep-rooted, but usually unspoken, agreement with that, which, therefore, creates a sympathetic group of Book of Mormon believers. Sound a bit complicated? Well, it is. It is, these days, primarily the older LDS members who have the strongest sympathy because they were closest to their ancestors who practiced plural marriage.

Thanks, Ed, for filling in a lot of puzzling details about Shurtleff and Swallow, and the complex reasons why they have been unwilling to pursue charges against individuals who violate the bigamy/polygamy statutes. In light of the horrific traumas in the closely-guarded polygamous communities, described so poignantly by the escapees, it is dreadful that flagrant abuse will continue unchecked, completely unimpeded by those who should uphold the laws on the books in Utah.

One of the archived programs of Doris Hanson's shows features Kristyn Decker, who had been at the Salt Lake City Courthouse earlier in the day of Doris's program to hear the case brought by the Browns for the decriminalization of polygamy. What was particularly upsetting to hear was her honest view that the State's case was so feebly constructed. I was shocked by this revelation. The judge wanted to hear examples, and Kristyn was unable to articulate her own horrible experience b/c she was not utilized as a witness. I kept wondering, "Where did that guy go to law school? What was his legal team doing? Why did they fail to substantiate their case with people who would be solid witnesses? Why were people like Kristyn Decker completely ignored when their testimony would have been so compelling?" The only conclusion I am able to draw from the State's poor showing on this is exactly what you described re: some mainstream LDS members who continue to have deep-rooted, although unspoken, agreement with Joseph Smith's doctrine. The indifference to the suffering that is plaguing so many in the fundamentalist communities is shocking and deeply disturbing.

I plan to continue to educate myself about what is happening in AZ, where I have lived for the past 13 years. I know there is fundamentalist polygamy being practiced in this state, and I wonder if there is a similar wink and turn away attitude among the officials here?

I'm excited to have your book on my Kindle and will be reading it in short order. I'm so glad that you've posted on the Sister Wives Blog, along with Cara. You have both brought so much to the discussion on these pages! Many thanks.

yep - go into any mainstream 4th generation+ and you'll see plenty of photographs and genealogy full of their plyg ancestors who they cherish and love and think they'll be reunited with someday. they see them as paying a huge price in sacrifice that they themselves haven't personally been required to do and they're not interested in making them out to be criminals or villains of any sort but quite the opposite. they are the Pioneers who were tried and tested and proven faithful in all things and are enjoying their celestial kingdom reward now. so yeah - it's complicated.

Ed, Is it your belief that Utah would go after cases of under-age, forced marriages, and/or child abuse in polygamy or are they afraid of offending the old guard LDS members here too? Is there any serious investigation of polygamist families for these crimes in the community?

Back then they had too many women. In a church that required marriage for heaven they did it to keep the converts coming. Imagine in the beginning converting to the LDS Utah church from England meant you moved there. Lots of women converted and left home. It was a response to the conditions of the moment.

The reason they don't prosecute is these folks are armed, rich, and numerous. The more actions taken the more the people are subjected to injustice from the FLDS. Let's make it harder to figure out age and do home births with no birth certificates certified by the government. Let us separate and reassign families to keep people behaving themselves. The reason they don't prosecute is they don't want it to go to the supreme court like gay marriage and be allowed officially. They like the status quo. They prosecute the other abuses cause they do prosecute those same abuses in monogamy.

LDS in Salt Lake is very anti polygamy. The rest of the world doesn't care all that much. It's just like a man having lots of baby mamas. And they don't want to be confused with these folks.

First Giltee Guilt...I think Arizona authorities are more interested in making serious changes. I have known Mohave County Supervisor Buster Johnson for a number of years. A good man, he is trying desperately to get some kind of effective law enforcement in the community. The Town Marshals are referred to as the God Squad, who reports to Warren.

Anon...Great question. One reason why I oppose legalization or even decriminalization is because it would remove all oversight of potential investigations into under-age marriages. I believe that officials are reluctant to press charges because every time a polygamist goes to trial Mormonism goes to trial. For the past 18 years, except for a couple of years in Mexico, where we are hoping to return in the spring to do the 'plygs' sequel, I have known of only three instances where a polygamist was brought to trial on child rape charges. We know there have been many more instances. One judge screwed up and the guilty verdict was overturned (Jeffs case), one plyg cop got his hands slapped, one man in northern Utah went to jail for a couple years and the county attorney who prosecuted him was voted out of office in the next election.

I got into genealogy a while back, and seeing all the polygamy in my family has spurred me to learn more of what the Mormon church taught.

In something I read, the author mentioned how the returning missionaries got the pick of the women which is why the leaders had 5,10 or more wives, and the poor men had just the one. It also mentioned that a lot of men remained unmarried because there weren't enough woman to go around as documented by Anaymous 12:07's post of the census figures showing more men than women.

KMS, I respectfully disagree with your statement about the surplus of women in the early church. A review of census records shows that there were always more men than women. Plural wives as a method of caring for widows, orphans, and vulnerable women is actually nothing more than an urban legend that has become a part of Mormon folklore. I think it makes those of us with Plyg ancestors feel a little better about our history.

Malamom - you are correct. it's well-documented factually that wasn't the case and yes - mormons are spoonfed that "too many women and the men just mostly married widows to take care of them and their children financially" is total b.s. It doesn't take much digging at all to get to the true facts of the matter. Thanks to the internet - the mormon church has lost its control of controlling the info they want their members to have. The internet has been a huge game changer for them and more and more members are becoming shocked to find out how little they truly know about their church's true un-varnished history!

Hayley and Malamom are correct. This "surplus of women" line is due to Mormon apologists at work who want to downplay polygamy in the LDS church. You only have to read the speeches of the early leaders to know that this was not the case, as well as the scriptural injunctions to live polygamy that can be found in the Doctrine and Covenants of the LDS church. Yes, there were men who couldn't find a wife because of the practice, and worse still, men who lost their wives to it - because men like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young took them, and often sent the legal husbands away on very long missions to get them out of the way.

Thanks to the terrific young person who wrote such a comprehensive report after attending the UNLV conference that included the Browns, Willie Jessop, Kollene Snow, Christine Marie, and Kristyn Decker. It was so wonderfully detailed that I feel like I was right there in the audience! I'm sure we'll be shown a very edited/slanted version of it tomorrow night on Sister Wives, so it's great that we were able to get such a full picture of what transpired back in April on today's blog.

How sad it is that Christine (Brown) rejected the opportunity to eat with her Aunt Kristyn and to take pictures with the others because they're "on different wave lengths." I've seen behaviors like this in other situations where someone shuts down b/c they expect that their beliefs will be questioned. It's unfortunate when this occurs b/c if Christine Brown is secure in the foundation of her beliefs, conversing with someone with another point of view should not be difficult. "Agree to disagree" would have probably been the outcome. It appears that there are some schisms within Christine's childhood recollections as evidenced by conflicting statements she made re: her perfect life, no arguments b/w her parents, followed by her mother's stunning decision to leave Christine's father and their polygamous life. What???? Her allusion to being aware of evil occurring around her was extremely troubling to me. I recognize some parallels in the way she is currently exhibiting well-honed denial in terms of her position within the Brown family. She is remorseful about the hurt and jealousy she felt when Sobbyn entered the family, and has valiantly tried to put on a sunny face to suppress and disguise the deep sadness and loneliness in her eyes and countenance. As hard as she attempts to accomplish this, though, her despair often seeps through. I can almost imagine her standing before her mirror every morning, intoning daily affirmations that her life is wonderful, that she's happy, that sharing Kody with his other wives is an acceptable trade-off b/c she has 3 sister wives. Apart from the genuine connection that I believe exists b/w Christine and Janelle, I do not see a natural ease when she's around Meri or Sobbyn. I'm looking at this from a very objective point of view b/c I don't have any type of emotional investment in any of the Brown family members, except for my fervent hope that the children will somehow emerge from their experiences as happy, grounded individuals.

I'm curious about the new family w/ 5 wives, but I haven't decided if I can watch it tomorrow night. The more I read about polygamy, the more upset I become. I've spent almost my entire life being a "people pleaser" and I recognize that Meri, Janelle, Christine, and Sobbyn are in a constant state of craving Kody's approval in their own unique ways. They're really locked into the TLC program b/c it is their primary income source to finance the McMansions in Cuddle Sac, NV. When the show inevitably ends, within the next season or two, there's a real risk that they will not be able to maintain those homes. I cannot imagine that the BE pewter ware, currently on display at the Guilt store in the Silverton Casino, or the more expensive pieces on the MSWC website will be able to offset the sucker-punch they'll receive from losing the TLC income. Additionally, Kody is addicted to the spotlight, as is Sobbyn, and to a lesser extent, IMHO, so is Meri. When the cameras leave, I think there will be real depression in the Browns b/c of the loss of the $$$ and the loss of the attention.

How sad it is that Christine (Brown) rejected the opportunity to eat with her Aunt Kristyn and to take pictures with the others because they're "on different wave lengths." I've seen behaviors like this in other situations where someone shuts down b/c they expect that their beliefs will be questioned.

Right. They can question ours, answer no questions about their religion, and that be that.

I don't blame her for not spending time with the aunt. She has dozens of them. And she was probably done being public after that. And probably sad to think about family skeletons. Gosh ALL families have a branch that had it really rough. Am I wrong?

I was thinking about that, too, KMS. I have four aunts on the entire planet. If I ever got a chance to go for lunch with one I'd take it. I guess it wouldn't mean as much if you had...? someone else will have to look on the family wreaths. I don't know the actual number.

I think I understand why Christine does not want to spend time with her aunt. I'm expect being faced with so many tough questions and hard facts by someone who is clearly "in the know" and can't be dismissed would be very unsettling and shake the foundation of her world. Much better to pug her ears and sing la-la-la-la-la rather than face those tough facts.

if it's not going to be "FUN, FUN, FUN" for Christine - she's not interested. it's just the way she is and she admitted she didn't want to go and be confronted by these "anti-plyg" people on this panel to begin with and i imagine it highly stressed her - before, during and after. Besides that, remember that she TRULY BELIEVES her aunt has committed the condemning herself to eternal hell horrible no-no now by selling her soul to the devil and giving up her ETERNAL salvation by turning her back on god's church and WILL NOT be part of Christine's family in the eternities. So, no big deal to go ahead and be done with her in this earthly life as well now.

If Kody can't even explain his religious reasons for practicing polygamy doesn't that prove he's just doing it for sex, or for egotistical reasons? I also find it odd that they want their kids to have a choice. If they really truly believe they are doomed if they don't practice that lifestyle, wouldn't they be desperate to have the kids marry plural? It just doesn't all add up for me.Dee from Delaware

Exactly. If I thought my kids couldn't get to heaven without this lifestyle, I doubt I'd tell them it was their choice to choose as they pleased.

I also call BS on them saying their kids could be gay or straight. I have yet to hear of these religions being accepting of gays. Of course many more mainstream religions aren't accepting of gay people either.

true - this religion doesn't hold a corner on the market when it comes to thinking gays are all about "evil sin" and "choosing" their "decadent lifestyle." PLENTY of other so-called CHRISTIAN religions make the same condemning judgment about them and justify it from their own god's scriptures. There's enough hypocritical judgment to go around from the majority of other organized religions for sure.

I was thinking the same thing anonymous 8:07. How can they say it's their "choice to live the lifestyle" on one hand and believe they are doomed in the afterlife if they don't live polygamous on the other. Seems there really isn't a "choice" for them.

I'm so confused. I thought if they don't get sealed to a spouse outside their parent's family that they are still sealed to their father and can join his celestial kingdom. If they do believe this,wouldn't it assure the kid's salvation? Even if they choose not to practice polygamy? If this is what they believe,Kody & crew wouldn't need to push the issue on the kids.

Isn't the difference between Kody and the polygamist men described in the panel only a matter of degree?

1. Kody doesn't share in the work of raising his children or maintaining his women's homes. He arrives only for dinner, sex, dates and vacations.

2. Kody doesn't provide for his children. They would have starved but for the state assistance and subsidies for food and health care and no doubt welfare funds. Not to mention the bankruptcies.

3. Kody isn't listed on all his children's birth certificates. Like a lot of other plyg men, he doesn't take full responsibility after the impregnation is over.

4. Kody shames his daughters for their dress, shames his wives for "jealousy", and for wanting equal treatment - i.e., wanting other men if he can have other women. He doesn't think women are equal to men. He basically told Mariah to keep sweet. And when one of the wives was complaining of her unhappiness, her "sister wife" basically told her that Kody doesn't like problems and advised her essentially to keep sweet.

It's really telling that Kody and crew pretend to a modern tolerance, but it is not even skin deep. Scratch the surface a little, and Kody quickly gets angry and makes it clear how beneath him his women are. If he is this arrogant with four bankrupcies under his "family's" belt and no TLC income, how bad would he be if he had more power, or more money? He would become intolerable. He is the male who rides from woman to woman in his gold convertible, getting four trips, four vacations, four meals out, four vacations to their one. He wants more children, and more women, and it isn't their welfare that is stopping him, because he hasn't concerned himself with any of their welfare up to now. He comes first. And they're supposed to think this is okay, because he stops short on the dress code and doesn't put them in prarie dresses.

I think after watching a few seasons of sister wives, that he is of the same mindset of other plyg abusers. Just a few degrees down. But if he had more power, I don't doubt he would hesitate to abuse it, because he's as abusive as he can be now with what he has.

Kody is DEFINITELY emotionally abusive to his wives and kids and is clueless as to how so. They each could individually clue him in but he doesn't have the ears to hear it nor the attention span of a gnat to do so either.

One thing about the Browns: I do think the have raised their kids with alot of love and it shows. I was super impressed that Logan talked and apologized to Kristyn (not that he should feel he had to make excuses for Robyn, but the gesture was sweet).

I don't know how to feel- it is an interesting to ponder: is it something about polygamy that lends itself to these evil acts or is it just evil men using their position within the system as a way to commit these acts? And should the law just crack down on the abusers like the would in any family that those acts occur, but allow polygamy as long as it is practiced responsibly under freedom of religion....

Anon 8:47 - that's EXACTLY the way it's being enforced now. The Browns and ALL of the other public polygamists seem to almost get off on the prospect that what they're doing is illegal and their families have be arrested for practicing. BUT BUT BUT...the last time that anyone was arrested/jailed solely for polygamy without child abuse/sexual abuse/welfare fraud - was what, 50 years ago or MORE...

Utah Law Enforcement has a whole Primer on their website. Kody would have never been arrested. he was in no danger whatsoever. He doesn't meet the criteria. It was total BS just like most of the steaming piles of crap they ALL serve up. bleagh.

I think it is so sad that they dramatized it because I do believe the kids really believed Kody would have been arrested. But, is it more like that they want to legal rights as a wife kind of like the whole issue of gay marriage? For example, if something happened to Kody, Meri would have all the legal rights to make any decision she wanted to and Janelle, Christine and Robyn couldn't do anything about it...or are they not really concerned about it? Just wondering...

To DJ: Yup. You are right; Kody was straight-up lying. I'm wondering if his pyramid-scheme businesses were unravelling, and he was receiving some serious blow-back, uncomfortable pressure, or threats and needed to make a hasty exit? There are so many lies...such malfeasance. He's gone on the record saying that he always wanted to live in Nevada, so what about that particular contradiction in light of their rapid departure from Utah in an attempt to avoid prosecution? I never bought it for an instant. I do feel as if the children were traumatized by the thought that their lives might come apart at the seams if Kody was arrested, and that pain is just unforgivable on the part of the adults who KNEW it wasn't true.

Anonymous 9:31, I think you're correct that Janelle, Christine, and Sobbyn would be up a creek without a paddle if Meri had to make the decisions in a post-Kody world. I have a hunch that Janelle is being sensible about making plans for her future and her children's future, although her decision to deplete her 401K seems to refute the notion that she's a pragmatic business woman. :/ Sobbyn would probably fare the best w/ Meri, but Meri would always put Mariah and herself right at the top of the food chain. She doesn't even make a feeble attempt to feign closeness to Janelle or to Christine on the SW show.

hopefully, sooner rather than later - Logan will not feel the need to apologize in behalf of Robyn nor any of his other adult parents. It's her behavior and she needs to own it and Logan doesn't need to be wringing his hands about it and soften other people's hearts towards her. It would have been fine if he would have said that she gets emotional and he's sorry she did that to Kristyn but he didn't need to add that she doesn't mean to be rude. He doesn't know that and let her apologize and speak for herself and own it in the rudeness of her own behavior. Logan's been put in the adult parent since early childhood and it will be healthy for him when he breaks free from the need to do that for those adults.

CORRECTION: 1) It says "Willie Jessop" in the audience member description. That should read "Willie Steed". "Willie Jessop" also exists, as does "William E. Jessop", but neither were panelists. ;) Willie Jessop was first Warren Jeffs' bodyguard and then after the YFZ raid became FLDS spokesman. Willie Jessop left the FLDS in early 2011. He bought Warren Jeffs' house this year. He says he plans to turn it into a museum. William E. Jessop is the man who leads the FLDS schism group and claims that Warren Jeffs had selected him as new prophet.

2) In the UNLV Rebel Yell article it says "Willie Steed is the son of Warren Jeffs", which it also says here in the Notes section. That is incorrect. Willie Steed is the son of Carling Steed and Suzette Bateman.

Even in the small clip Kody seems angry. Clearly, it's hitting him very close to the chest. Throughout the life of the show, all of the Brown adults have been invoking the name of Warren Jeffs and saying WE AREN'T LIKE HIM/THEM.

Kody, thou protests far too much.

I think while the adults believe in the Principle - some more than others - they all have personal non-religious reasons to be involved in polygamy:

Kody - was LDS, has always been a narcissistic attention whore. His dad flipped to fundamental/principle, and Kody did mostly because it suited him. the personal benefit aspect was at least subconsciously as appealing if not more so than the religious aspect, which (in his mind) legitimizes the practice.

Meri - Raised in the lifestyle, but also wanted to marry and keep Kody, the only guy ever interested in her. If she could choose and choose honestly, I think she would be thrilled not to have the other three wives INCLUDING Robyn.

Janelle - primarily a rebound from her first marriage, and influenced by her mom. Janelle is a follower not a leader, nor really a free thinker. and I think that she's doing the show for the money, well they ALL are but she is probably the most aware of it. Now, she's locked in with her kids and I think she does believe in all that planet crap.

Christine - had a crush on Kody and was also raised in the lifestyle. Didn't mind sharing as long as she was the newest/favorite/most fun wife. but I think she pursued Kody, as much as she could given her position.

Robyn - rebound and "following the money". also since she's as big an attention whore as Kody, she enjoys the spotlight.

I definitely agree that Kody's escalating anger in that clip reveals SO much about him. Although I don't think he is capable of doing the atrocious things that Warren Jeffs did, he is nevertheless the ultimate power in the Brown constellation, and they all try to turn themselves inside out to please him. DJ, you nailed it w/ each of the wives and their reasons for choosing to be in this w/ Kody.

As Anonymous 8:47 pointed out about Logan's interaction w/ Kristyn, trying to explain Robyn's over-the-top defensive posturing, he is a really nice young man. I'm so glad that he and the older Brown kids are going to college. He has acquired more wisdom in his young life than Kody has in 45 yrs., or probably ever will in his remaining time on this earth b/f he ascends to Planet Kody.

When the show first aired, the Browns said over and over and over "It's a lifestyle choice."Now I know this could not be further from the truth.Now I know it is a religious belief system where one must slepp with a married man in oder to get to heaven.Kody Brown, just tell the truth.

So grateful for the eye witness's account, and surely for the report on sidebar exchanges btw Christine and her Aunt. Christine should now be dubbed "the hypocrite."

Nice to know the camera crew is fed up too, while admitting the money is VERY good. Like the Browns, they are all in it for the money. It's a job.And by that guy's own words, the money being doled out to all involved sound's pretty damn impressive. Yet still the Browns have cried poor mouth all along.

Now what will be interesting is see just how much editing will be done for the Sunday airing, compared with what this audience member saw and heard first hand.

It could be a very tailored version once all the footage enters the cutting room.One version could position the Browns precariously close to the wheels of the bus for appearing prejudicial, entitled, and all around unpleasant. (like they did for the Kate+8's final season)....Or it will could be an edited version that continues to showcase Sobbin as the hapless and unrefined Voice of the harem, and also allow Kody to "paint himself" as the unfairly maligned OZ of KodyWorld.

We shall see which version it will be !! However, not counting on seeing just an honest film account of what the audience saw and heard sans any editing.

I'm wondering if TLC didn't arrange this forum just to give Kody and the Kodettes another story line in the show. Polygamy just doesn't seem like a hot enough topic for a major university to have a forum on it...

IDK Hayley, but I am going to put up tomorrow another forum that the ladies of PolygamyUSA were on at Dixie State U in Utah, so it must be a topic that goes around. Ed Kociela was asking questions at this one, should be interesting!

Mister Sister, I have to say that the caliber of this blog is amazing. Such perceptive comments from a whole range of people. Thanks for all your efforts in bringing this to us - true "reality" about the Brown circus and polygamy in general.

About Logan's apology to Christine's Aunt for Sobbin's irrational rudeness....

The fact that he felt compelled to do that speaks volumes about his scruples, and also about his own inner conflicts. Doubtful that his effort to do that was filmed and if it was, doubtful it will be aired.

And of course, folks will want to credit and praise Janelle for her son's actions.However, I think Janelle is one very lucky woman/mother to have been gifted with such a morally fit offspring. A son who displayed compassion and awareness despite the self-serving, myopic world in which he was raised. Janelle is not a leader type at all, rather she just goes along with whatever is the issue/topic du jour. She does NOT take a stand on anything.

Her son sat there and was able to cut through the patented BS coming from his collective "parents" and see an inequity being done to someone else.

How pathetic that Kody and Janelle's son had to make amends for Sobbin's lack of restraint and class, instead of his father or his mother (or bonus mothers) seeing the need for such an effort. Logan was more of a mature adult that any of the five Brown adults up there.Uhhh, these people are so messed up !!!!

I felt very sorry for Logan, reading that he apologized for Robyn's behavior. When parents act like children, children feel they must take on the role of parent. I hope Logan (in fact all the children) can find their way to lives outside of polygamy.

This. Robyn ought to be ashamed of herself. This wasn't an episode of Jerry Springer. It was a discussion on her "son's" (not sure if Aspyn was there yet, didn't look at the debate) university campus intended to enlighten people and politely debate their lifestyle choice. Why she felt the need to grandstand and turn it into a speech about her persecution is beyond me. Shame on you Robyn and shame on your Janelle as well. You never should have agreed to allow that unstable woman to speak, in front of a camera with a camera, at your son's university. Oh and Christine, shame on you too. You showed your true colors once again. Someday you may regret your nasty actions toward your Aunt and maybe your kids would have liked that picture she wanted to take with you. I noticed Kody sitting in the middle of his roost. He probably thought he looked cool, but in reality he looked like a cowardly little man who let his women do most of the yapping for him. Unfortunately, they were as ill informed over their "religion" gag as their priesthood holder.

Logan, you rock and can do so much better than this. I think you already know it but I gotta tell you that as well.

yeah, i think Logan's a good guy IN SPITE of his upbringing and NOT because of it! and yes - a pro counselor would let him know he doesn't owe anyone an apology for Robyn's actions. He could say I'm sorry she acted like that towards you but NOT add the caveat excuse for her behavior like he did. Let her own it and explain it herself if she feels the need to, Logan! :)

It's good to remember the 4 C's of your own emotionally healthy interaction w/peeps who don't want to become enablers/co-dependents for peeps' own emotional baggage they want you to carry for them instead of doing the work required to heal themselves. (different from healthy compassion and empathy.)

I didn't CAUSE IT, I can't CURE IT, I can't CONTROL it and I won't CONTRIBUTE to it.

I meant to say "in front of a camera with a crew in tow". I need to double check editing before submitting but they do piss me off more and more. Time to take blood pressure meds and go to work ;) Thanks Mister and the rest of the crew for the incredible work and devotion that goes into running this forum. It's sincerely appreciated. Also thanks to everyone who comments here. It makes me believe I'm not the only one not baaahing in adoration to these grifters not to mention the incredible knowledge to be found here.

What is sad to me is how interesting the show COULD be if it WERE reality and they told the truth. Their lives really are fascinating. Can you imagine sharing your husband with your brother's ex-wife? Or being a woman who wanted to be polygamous and your husband didn't? Robin's ex David could have a whole series...why the VS bill? Did she have a drinking problem? Christine's whole life is fascinating. Why does she think her mom left? What was the response of her family over the murder of her grandfather? Do they think something else happened? How come she never gets to go visit her family? Do they speak regularly? Do the kids know their cousins? Will they marry them? Do the teens do AUB teen stuff looking for future mates?

Seems the Browns had a negative attitude during the discussion. I really feel for their children in the audience- just more humiliating parent behavior for the world to see.

I have noticed on the show that Kody, Robyn & Christine get especially twitchy when talking about being persecuted/judged. Perhaps it's time for them all to take a green chill pill and retire to a private life making joolery & aprons.

Couple good books to read, that will help you understand the Mormon church (the *actual LDS*) and an inside view on polygamy:1. The God Makers--does a good job explaining the doctrine and theology. It's written in part by an ex-Mormon who is now an evangelical Christian.2. Anything by Dorothy Allred Solomon-- She is Christine's aunt, daughter of Rulon Allred and grew up in the time after the raid on Short Creek, etc. Very good and telling about how it 'really' is/was.

I second reading The God Makers. If you're an evangelical Christian, you will be absolutely shocked at what the Mormon church actually teaches. The sad thing is that most of the members really don't know that much about their doctrines and history.

Another good book on Mormon history is Devil's Gate: Brigham Young and the Great Mormon Handcart Tragedy that tells the story of how in 1856 the poor European immigrants were forced to push handcarts from Iowa to Salt Lake City in order to save the Mormon church money. Each cart weighed 65 lbs, and was assigned to a family or group of 5 people who each were allowed 17 lbs of personal belongings. Because of extremely poor planning, the carts were made out of green wood with leather around the wheels instead of iron. They broke down a lot causing additional delays. The tragedy came about as Brigham Young and his cohorts allowed two companies to start out near the end of August instead of having them winter over back east. As luck would have it, they got caught in an early heavy snow in Wyoming where a lot of them died. The people were alloted one pound of flour a day, and in the beginning, got a few ounces of rice and maybe a bit of bacon a couple of times a week to eat. By the time they were hitting the mountains, they were running low on flour so they cut their rations to 4 oz a day for adults, and 2 oz a day for children. [A lb of flour contains just over 1,500 calories.] This was no where nearly enough to sustain a person hauling 150 lbs cart 10 to 15 miles a day, so the actual death toll is much higher than the Mormon church would like it's people to believe. Brigham Young did sent a couple of rescue parties to help the companies [2 of my great great grandfathers took part in that], but the people were in such bad shape, it didn't stem the death toll. The author concludes the book by pointing out that Brigham Young valued money over the lives of his church members. The book is well worth reading if you're interested in American history.

i've read at least the top 20 plyg books the past couple of years. Too many in a row took its emotional toll on me tho. They're ALL such gutwrenching hellacious nightmares and it's a true miracle when someone breaks from its tentacles.

One of my top faves tho is IT'S NOT ABOUT THE SEX, MY ASS! by Joann Hanks. I was soooooo ready for that one as it's got some great snark humor re:her own firsthand experience with it. So REFRESHING to actually be able to laugh out loud at the absurdity of it all. She's one smart and fun lady!

(fwiw - i don't receive any compensation nor do i know Joann Hanks or Steve Cuno personally. I'm just a huge fan of this great book and love to spread the word about it.) Enjoy!

I am over watching this show, but I am going to buy Ed's book as well and Krystyn Decker's book new on Amazon to support their good work. If Koko ever writes a book I will buy that one too.

The Browns are lazy, welfare abusing, lying polygamists. Please Robyn and Christine, tell us again how happy your childhoods and families were, when both your moms left the family. Please Christine, make sure we know you are in such a great lifestyle that you had to go on anti-depressants because you were replaced with a younger and better looking wife.

Meri, tell us how you felt watching your sister wives give your husband 6 kids each while you could only give him one daughter and how this has made you better. Also make sure to tell us how you sleep alone in your mansion knowing that your husband is with one of his other "wives".

Janelle, please tell us how great your lifestyle is when you couldn't even hold your husband's hand in your own house because his wife might get jealous. Janelle, tell us why you always look so miserable and allowed your kids to be treated poorly by Meri.

Robyn, please explain how you constantly make yourself the victim of an "abusive ex, poor credit, Victoria Secret bills, getting pregnant because you couldn't figure out how to use birth control. However, you snap at a true warrior woman that has more class and strength in her pinky finger than you will ever have, and tell her not to make you the victim. Robyn, have you ever thought about getting a real job? You know, instead of doing a reality show or going on welfare.

I feel so sorry for the Brown kids. I cannot watch this show after Robyn bashed the father of her kids on national t.v. There are going to be some great tell all books in a few years. The Browns are disgusting people and all 5 of the adults deserve all the unhappiness they have in their lives. I don't feel sorry for any of them. Poor Logan, I have the feeling Janelle's kids are all going to choose monogamy.

Robyn, thank you for making it clear you are really the witch I always knew you were. She has shown a lot of glimpses of the real Robyn this season and it isn't pretty. She is not a nice person.

Freya I purchased Ed's book and I was drawn in right from the beginning. It's shaping up to be very informative, easy to understand and extremely interesting. I was shocked it was sold at the price it was and it should definitely be listed when people are looking for books on polygamy.

Great comments, Freya. And, Funky Town, I completely agree with what you wrote about Ed Kociela'sbook. I'm captivated right away, and its low price has floored me. (It's also terrific that Ed has posted such important info on this blog.)

I read the Dargers book today, and they seem like the better candidates for showing the positive side of polygamy, only they do it with understanding that not everyone will see things their way, and that's ok. Their marriages are more stable, their kids are happier, and they put their reasoning for why they believe what they do right out there. I think the Browns are just grasping at anything to prolong their fifteen minutes at this point. If they were really doing this because it's what they want, and not because they feel forced to because of the Principle, then they need to be able to articulate it, and act like it. If it's because they want to reach the Celestial Heaven, then say so. If it's the latter, it's not a choice, but a desire to be in Heaven, and not just any heaven, but the HIGHEST heaven (insert eye roll here) so they need to stop trying to sell the public that it's such a great lifestyle for independent strong people. I get that, for some people, it can be great, and helps them grow spiritually and as a person, but if that's not the truth, don't try selling it like that. I am utterly fascinated by the practice, and how people can justify it and live it, but disgusted at their actions in denying that abuse happens, is happening, and treating those that leave the way they do. It's shameful, for polygamist, monogamists, monks, whatever. You just don't do that.

I take great exception to those who rebuke any anti-polygamist stance with cries of “stop picking on them; they’re not hurting anyone,” “if you don’t like it, then don’t watch it” or "you're close-minded if you don't accept this." There are too many serious matters at stake here to accept such a brush-off.

Let's start with whether the Browns have ever seriously considered the potential impact of what they’re requesting. They want polygamy to be decriminalized; in other words, to be made legal. Have they considered that if this were to occur, then in the cult compounds where people are controlled by those in power and women are pressured to marry the men in power or supposedly forfeit eternal salvation, those marriage practices would become legal. The Brown family and other fans of polygamy say they are horrified by the actions of those cults, yet it seems they are quite willing to be a party to the further entrenchment of such practices. I am not saying they are advocating for the criminal practice of underage marriage and the sex crimes that go with it, but they would be a party to the predatory marriage practices being perpetrated on those who are of legal age.

How exactly would the Browns scope a legal plural marriage? How many wives would be allowed? Would they allow 65, as in the Warren Jeffs cult? If not, then how many? And let's not forget for a moment that it would have to be legal the other way as well ... a woman could marry multiple men regardless of Kody Brown's opinion of this as vulgar. And wouldn’t any combination of multiple men and women also have to be permitted to marry each other under such a law? In a legal plural marriage, would all of the adults in effect be married to each other? Can you start to see the complications here? Now try to imagine a divorce in such a situation. How would the courts ever sort out the distribution of property, spousal support, child custody, child support, etc?

(This post is too long to publish in its entirety; I’ll finish in a 2nd post.)

Part 2:Now let’s consider family finances. The Brown have had multiple bankruptcies and received food assistance and Medicaid despite having multiple adults who could work and support the family. There are also credible accounts of outrageous sums of money being paid in food assistance to the large polygamous compounds. Why is this? Clearly one reason is their complete lack of financial accountability but there’s also the simple fact that they cannot afford such large families. Most people have moderated the size of their family for various reasons, one of which is economic. They opt for a number of children that they can reasonably support over the long haul, while also saving for retirement and a safety net in the event of a serious medical situation or other event that would strain their finances. The Browns have done the opposite … despite the bankruptcies, they had more children and added a wife who brought debt with her into the equation, but they want the rest of us to let them live their “lifestyle.” More recently they've built a lifestyle based on a reality TV sized income rather than live more modestly and save all they can for post-reality TV. How many communities can provide public education and other services under current tax structures if there are so many people in each family? Since large numbers of children have been synonymous with polygamy, these impacts need to be considered very carefully.

Other considerations include everything from how health insurance providers would deal with this and how social security would be administered after the death of a spouse to the growing concerns about overpopulation of the planet (planet Earth, not the fictitious planet that Kody Brown allegedly wishes to populate). Others in this blog have commented persuasively about the signs that polygamy doesn’t actually promote the happy sisterhood that the Browns want us to believe is inherent. I wanted to bring to light other areas that require serious thought. It is critically important to recognize that this is really not about religious freedom or whether we should just let everyone live the way they wish; whether we are “open minded” enough to live and let live. In fact, that would be irresponsible in this situation considering what is at stake. So, while the Browns and others who think polygamy is merely a harmless "lifestyle" continually exhort us to stop persecuting them for their choices and allow them to live as they wish, I ask them to give just as much thought to the real consequences of their quest; to think about the whole picture and not just what would be expedient for themselves.

Let's not forget the most important financial impact. Were plyg marriage legal, the "wives" that currently claim single mother status for food stamps etc, would NO LONGER be eligible. I'm sure Kody didn't think it this far out, though.

I think it is the UNLV Debate preview article and first hand witness account, coupled with just having watched the Dateline show, that has SWB readers "enlivened" and loaded for bear, as my father used to say.

I think there has been an awful lot of ambivalent thoughts about the Browns brewing just under the surface for many viewers and now at the end of the season these are coming to fore. I just don't buy their claims that their version of polygamy is so better than others that they should not be compared.

The Brown's "sugar coating" of the plyg lifestyle couldn't have been on better display than in the UNLV debate.

Viewers are naturally drawing parallels between Kody and Krew's new and "improved" version of the plyg lifestyle and other plyg groups.

There is a reason SWB readers keep coming back time and time again to the topic of the Brown's multiple business ventures (Green Goo, MSW Closet, Whether or not Janelle and Christine are just lending their name to the real estate company for publicity purposes or if they are really truly working there to any extent, the decision to invest (or not invest) in a gym etc) .

There is a reason people are curious about their many bankruptcies, their lack of health and car insurance, their use of public assistance in its various forms.

The Browns really can't have it both ways with their viewers - on the one hand we're supposed to take their word at face value that they are new and improved plygs and that because they are not as bad as Jeffs and his followers they somehow get a free pass from judgement. At the same time they do not want to admit they cannot support their size family without a reality TV show and own up to their past financial dependancy on public assistance. They don't want us to dwell on their wanting to isolate themselves in a gated cul-de-sac or their demonization of Robyn's ex-husband who has visitation rights to his children.

The UNLV debate just shows the Browns at their "best". Defensive, dysfunctional and unwilling to be introspective. I predict the couple's counseling session will either be a big "yawn" or will just be more of Kody pontificating about how he is a super-priest-head-husband, able to give each woman what she needs while none of the women, alone, can satisfy him.

Sorry for the rant... but emotions are running high on the boards in the last 24 hours or so thinking about what is at stake - the emotional well-being of the Brown children who have grown up in this lifestyle.

I really enjoyed "Thinking is Required"'s post and think it is "on topic" to the extent that the debate has triggered a lot of emotion in all of us about how the Browns operate.

Looking at the picture, the women are dressed nice...but Kody has on jeans! Yes, they look pressed and are accompanied by a blazer, but come on, at least try to look classy instead of 'hip'! People will take you seriously if you 'appear' to have it all together. Like I tell my children...you can be super intelligent but if you do not speak intelligibly, you will not be respected as being intelligent. If you don't dress for the occasion, you will not be perceived in a positive light.

Yes, the women look very presentable. But "modest is hottest" Christine puzzles me. She has obviously rolled her special undies up above her knees in order to wear the short skirt and sheer pantyhose. Is that modest in terms of AUB standards? Their clothes ideas fluctuate so wildly that it's hard for me to determine a baseline viewpoint.

First of all big thanks to the audience member for giving us a peek. Be interesting to see what we see tomorrow night. And to the blog, who have worked so hard this week.I noticed no one is talking about the polygamy victims. Reading their stories was heartbreaking. Just thinking about Robyn grandstanding at Kollene's expense makes me not like her at all. She's older and should know better.

Shoot... I was on my way to bed, but refreshed this page, & then proceeded to read a lot more posts. It is addictive!

Must give props to Thinking is Required, Slacker Mom, Anonymous 1:50 am, and of course to the marvelous Mister Sister who so capably handles a continuous onslaught of comments. Gosh, this is such a great site!! :D

"I wasn’t entirely unaware of the struggles I might face. Growing up around so many polygamous families, I was well aware of the problems and pitfalls—the anger and jealousy, as well as the daily organizational and financial struggles. I knew that the situation I was entering was going to be challenging.

**I’d never seen my parents fight, but I realized that once they got divorced, their marriage must have been troubled for a long time. But in our family, if you had a problem, you just put on a smile and didn’t let it show. I never saw my parents try to work through their differences until it was too late. But when I married Kody, I ignored any potential problems. I put on my rose-tinted glasses and cheerful disposition and imagined that when I entered a plural marriage, I wouldn’t experience those issues other people faced. If I was naive, it was because I chose to be" (Page 12).

Thanks for posting that PlygKoolAid - that explains a lot about why Christine didn't see many of the bad things growing up, although she was aware of some. I did see the problems that Kristyn Decker identifies in AUB. Her account is entirely accurate from what I know. The concept of "you just put on a smile" that Christine mentions, is one that permeates AUB and all the polygamist groups. Women are never supposed to let their true feelings show. That's why kids in polygamy sometimes come away with the idea that polygamy is fine for all concerned, when it most definitely is not. Christine chooses to create a fantasy land as a survival mechanism.

PlygKoolAid, thank-you for providing Christine Brown's excerpt from "Becoming Sister Wives" b/c it definitely explains the suppression of her feelings. Viewers can see beyond Christine's facade and recognize sadness, disconnection, and loneliness, even when she thinks she's fully disguising her pain by smiling and joking. Thanks, too, to ex AUB for more insight into the fact that women in polygamy are never supposed to let their true feelings show, and why children of polygamy can mistake feigned happiness for genuine contentment.

The more I read about polygamy, the sadder I feel for the women whose natural joy and happy dreams are crushed under the heels of their leaders, priesthood holders, and the oppressive, punitive dogma that assigns them to eternal damnation and separation from their loved ones if they do not follow the rules. As for the gentle children who are born into these situations, ahhh...........I just have no words. :-(

Kody's statement at the UNLV debate about not knowing much (doctrinally) about his religion struck me as off. Hadn't I read something in "Becoming Sisterwives" that contradicted this new statement? I had to do a little digging...

"I was excited to be associating with members of Meri's faith. They had an intensity about religion that I found inspiring. Perhaps because their religion was somewhat countercultural and at odds with certain conventional doctrines, they took no aspect for their belief for granted. They examined their convictions carefully and enthusiastically. **The members of this group were fully committed to their ideologies and discussed them at length, both debating and confirming the tenants of their religion. Every day I spend with this group seemed to turn into an impromptu revival with profound discussions of spirituality and religion that I had been missing in the LDS church**" (page 22, Kindle e-book edition).

Wow, all of that intense discussion / debate (in which Kody enthusiastically participated) and he is still is naive about the doctrines of his faith? Baloney.

It would be interesting to have a post that simply lists all the times they have contradicted themselves. Would there even be space? I think it's pretty clear why they downplay the religious aspect. It's because it undercuts their claim that it's just a "lifestyle choice" indicating what strong, independent women they are, and how adorable Kody must be for them to have chosen him! Much different from the truth of at least the psychological manipulation of women that takes place to persuade them to let their man have multiple sexual partners while they wait for a crumb to fall from the table.

thank you sooo much for taking the time to come and share that with us. There are so many lies, they are hard to keep up with, and if you are going to say they have untruths, I like to have evidence to go with it. THANK YOU!!!

Awesome job finding that PlygKoolAid. I had forgotten that part of the book. I think Kody might have thought that sounded good in the book or maybe he was so caught up in his religious fervor that he forgot everything?

We should have a post where we all contribute the inconsistencies/contradictions we remember, and then MS can confirm them and compile into a master list. I'm sure the with all of us contributing, we could come up w/ quite the list...

After reading this great post, I for one will be watching tomorrow night. It comes on an hr early, right?

I am one that is always rooting for the Browns to be honest.

Sadly, they are not. If they would just be HONEST, and be able to hear opposing views, I could RESPECT them. When they lie, scream, pout, and can't handle any opposition, it seems the protest too much.

I'll be here tomorrow night, ready to read everyone's postings during the show.

I'm not really surprised by the Brown's defensive attitude at the "debate". They seem to have developed very serious persecution complexes of late. Blah! Blah! Blah! It's because we're plygs. No. It's because you are dishonest. When discussing their childhoods Meri, Robyn and Christine were being sweet - or maybe they were just victims of selective amnesia, which left them unable to remember any of the bad times - both then and now. When other panel members presented their case, giving personal testimony and citing many other cases of abuse that had occurred in their communities Kody and Robyn took it personally and went for the jugular. What kind of debate is that?

What really bothers me the most, though, is that they appeared on the UNLV campus where Logan (and now Aspyn) go to school. According to the Rebel Yell, they were also part of a panel discussion at the Student Union on October 15,2012. According to the article:: " ...,They have seventeen children between them. Logan, the eldest of the children, began his freshman year at UNLV this fall..... We expect [the Browns] to be very frank, straightforward, honest and sharing,” Ha!. I know that they support their family, but, being teenagers, I can't believe that Logan and Aspyn aren't just a little embarrassed.

I feel certain that it is more than "a little embarrassed." I know that the kids have seen the improvement in the housing situation since their parents joined the reality series. However, I cannot imagine the feelings that being encroahed on in this manner would create. Logan thought long and hard about leaving the LV area and going to school in Utah. Perhaps he should have considered somewhere far, far away from this family. Kody said at one point that Logan had been keeping his distance. Can you blame the guy?

For living plural family life, it seems to me the separate houses deal is not an improvement for the children. The multifamily homes in Utah suit that purpose better as the children all have consistent access to their father and all their mothers.

There is less LDS & FLDS influence in Nevada than Utah and it is easier for Logan to have his independence but still visit his large family whom I'm sure he will continue to love, even as he continues to pull away from them.

The link to the 2009 BBC clip elsewhere showed Janelle's oldest daughter even then insisting that she will not be a polygamist, something she had repeated whenever asked, every year, all these years. She says diplomatically but firmly 'it's not for me.'

That family really can't afford out of state tuition (especially with McMansion mortgages) and Janelle would have made sure her kids understand completely the problems of student loans and graduating with a mountain of debt in this lousy economy.

I hope TLC shows enough of what the blog writer reported.

And yes, Robyn is an embarrassment who brought a whole lot of baggage to the family but unless he takes another wife, she is the only vessel for more Kody celestial chips and he sure seems to favor her.

Logan had to have died a hundred deaths during that discussion. *sigh* Let's hope it helped push him over the edge to the point where he's 100% made up his mind to NOT pursue a polygamous lifestyle for his own future marriage.

There are so many many great comments on here!Mister Sister, I saw your tweet about the movie O Brother, it's my favorite.What I like about coming here is folks just want the truth. I am right there with you.I could respect the Brown if the respected themselves. I would think to have a family in polygamy, you would at the least be very involved with your church and your faith. Sadly, they want to hide that part.my question is why do they want to hide their faith? Why not be proud of it?

A huge thank you to the author of this post, to Ed and Cara Kociela for helping sort out truths, and all the posters that teach me so much. I am new here and had no idea that polygamy was so religion based. I also appreciate that the blog would post pro views. From what I have read, they seem to be afraid to or won't. That is very telling.

Considering this event took place near the beginning of the school year (last year). I wouldn't be surprised if this was a catalyst for Logan pulling away from the family. There was about 6 weeks between his moving to campus and this forum, likely he was home more often in that time,still getting settled and visiting a few times. But after watching his parents behavior, feeling the need to apologize for their behavior and having it occur on his "turf"; I just bet that this was the straw that broke the camels back

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