I tasted my attempt at the PJ Garlic sauce and looked at it again this morning and although it is still too salty, it is missing the buttery flavor. It did become a little thinner when it was in the refrigerator overnight. I see from Peter's post at Reply 492 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg260041.html#msg260041 that Circa 2008 that there was artificial butter flavor added to the ingredients, but don't see added now as far as I can tell, unless it is the natural & artificial flavor listed after the vegetable mono & diglycerides on the ingredient list.

Norma,

When I first looked into this matter, it occurred to me to mention adding a "butter buds" product, as I noted early on in this thread at Reply 22 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59232.html#msg59232. In fact, when I recently visited my local supermarkets to study the labels on all of the margarine products, I looked to see if I could find a butter buds product. I wasn't exactly sure where to look for such a product (I looked in the butter/margarine refrigerated cases and the spice shelves) but I did not see it. There are literally hundreds of butter/margarine and spice products at the supermarkets so it is possible I missed it.

I should add that there is nothing to preclude actually including a small amount of real butter to get a more buttery flavor. I always thought that any shortfall in trying to replicate the PJ Garlic sauce was likely to be in the flavor department. Noting the references to "natural flavor" in the various formulations of the PJ Garlic sauce, yesterday I researched what "natural flavor" really means under the FDA rules and regulations. As noted at http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/cfrsearch.cfm?fr=501.22, natural flavor (or natural flavoring) is described as follows:

I would interpret the above language to include butter, or an extract of butter if such exists. I would also interpret the language "natural garlic flavor" to include garlic juice as was earlier discussed in relation to early versions of the PJ Garlic sauce. The wording "natural & artificial flavor" that you mentioned in relation to the current (2013) version of the PJ Garlic sauce could conceivably cover both a natural butter flavor and a natural garlic flavor. For your additional information, dried garlic powder is not considered to be a "natural garlic flavor". Under FDA rules and regulations, it is treated as a "food".

To thin out your clone of the PJ Garlic sauce, you might use a bit of water. One of the differentiating factors between margarine products, both in stick and spread form, is the amount of water. Unfortunately, there is no way to determine how much water is in any given margarine product from the Nutrition Facts. I thought that the closest match from the Nutrition Fact standpoint to the margarine product used by PJ to make its Garlic sauce was a 60% vegetable oil spread. The Parkay Squeeze product is a 60% vegetable oil spread. I'm sure that I can determine how much water is in a generic 60% vegetable oil spread but that won't tell us how much water is actually in either the PJ Garlic sauce or the Parkay Squeeze spread to be able to equalize the two products from a water content standpoint.

Out of curiosity, I decided to see how much water is in one ounce of a generic 60% vegetable oil spread. According to the SelfNutritionData website, at http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fats-and-oils/7190/2, it is 37.5%. That would leave 100-60-37.5 = 2.5% for all of the other ingredients in the margarine spread. In PJ's case, they would use a bit less than one ounce of margarine spread to allow for enough room to include the garlic powder and the other ingredients so that the total is one ounce. As previously noted, 2% garlic powder comes to around 0.6 grams (0.02 ounces). But, in practice, there may be less than 2% garlic powder. The remaining ingredients would be minuscule in terms of amounts used.

Wow..chock full-o-water!I just had a thought about the butter flavor. I think everyone at some time has probably had some "movie theater butter" popcorn and that stuff is a strong (fake?)butter flavor. Orville Redenbacher sells a product that might work as a blender?http://www.orville.com/popcorn-kernels

Right after I tasted the addition of the pinch (from my pinch mini-measuring spoon) of salt in the PJ Garlic Sauce I attempted, I then knew you meant a pinch like between the thumb and forefinger, and not what I used. Thanks for telling me that when you measured out a pinch it was about half of the “pinch” mini-measuring spoon.

I think that is a good idea to add some water to thin out my attempts on a clone for a PJ Garlic sauce. Real melted butter might also do that.

Thanks for telling me that the photo in the mini-tubs of margarine spread isn't correct. I do recall you posted that before.

I can look for butter buds, the McCormick artificial butter flavor, or even try real melted butter. Really which one would you pick to try if you had access to butter buds or the McCormick artificial butter flavor? I recall a long while ago I did have some kind of artificial butter flavored something that seemed like oil, but can't recall what brand it was.

I just read somewhere that Blockbuster video sells a fake butter product that's super strong but I can't find it on their site.

Bob,

When we made buttered-popcorn we used many products to provide that buttery flavor. There was a butter-flavored oil, butter flavored coconut oil and others. They all did give the popcorn a buttery flavor. Some products could be drizzled over hot popcorn and then the popcorn was really buttery tasting. There also were products that were kept in a warmer. Even a product like Flavacol salt added a buttery flavor. http://shop.justpoppin.com/gourmet-popcorn-seasoning-flavacol-movie-theater-flavoring.html

I made the first attempt on a PJ Garlic Sauce and I think I made a mistake already. I did weight out 1 ounce of the Parkay Squeeze, 1 gram of soybean oil and at first 0.50 grams of the Shurfine garlic powder. I purchased a new container of garlic powder today to make sure it would be fresh. On the side of the Shurfine garlic powder it says 1/8 tsp. equals about one clove garlic. I mixed first before adding the salt and tasted. I think where I went wrong was I used my pinch measuring spoon and I think in Peter's instructions he meant just a pinch of salt and not to use a pinch measuring spoon. The PJ Garlic attempt is now too salty compared to what PJ Garlic sauce tastes like. I also did shake-up the PJ Garlic sauce before opening it right out of refrigerator and it is thinner, more buttery tasting and more yellow in appeance than what I tried. I added another 0.10 grams of the garlic powder and the garlic powder part tastes okay. I will let both of these Garlic sauces in the refrigerator and taste both again tomorrow. It can be seen that the PJ Garlic sauce is thinner than what I attempted. To my taste-buds it is also oilier, or maybe that is the buttery flavor. Any suggestions on how to get the Parkay Squeeze thinner before I make another attempt tomorrow, or if I should try something else?

The cheesestick dough ball isn't doing too much, but it has until later Sunday to ferment some more and since the ADY was not rehydrated I really didn't expect much fermentation in a little less than a day. There are some tiny fermentation bubbles on the bottom of the plastic container, so the cheesestick dough ball is fermenting slowly.

I also might called Conagra next week to see if they do give any samples of the Parkay Whipped Spread. I know a local Conagra did give me the MFB as a sample.

Norma

Norma,

The garlic butter flavor is so strong I think you can get away with the short fermentation of dough. (5hrs or so). I'd be very surprised if you could taste the difference at all.

The garlic butter flavor is so strong I think you can get away with the short fermentation of dough. (5hrs or so). I'd be very surprised if you could taste the difference at all.

Nate

Nate,

I can try you method later if I, or someone else can come up with a decent PJ Garlic sauce clone. Your cheesesticks looked delicious when you used the short fermentation of the dough. I just wanted to try a 3 day cold ferment to see how the dough ball behaves and then how the final cheesesticks are. I am not really looking for a better taste in the crust of those cheesesticks, but wanted to try and do what PJ does in using their dough balls.

I went to our local Country Store and to our local family owned supermarket. I found the Shank's artificial butter flavor at the Country Store and the Butter Buds, in two different products, at the local family owned supermarket. The Butter Buds sprinkles contain less sodium that the All Natural Butter Flavored Mix Butter Buds. I also purchased a lighter colored garlic powder and some LMPS shredded mozzarella for the attempt on the cheesesticks. I think I am well-armed in the department of butter flavorings. Which butter substitute should I try in the next iteration of making the PJ Garlic sauce and how much should I try? I probably won't make another attempt until tonight.

In case anyone is interested I found the Butter Bud products in the seasoning aisle right near the flours.

It looks like you have a lot of options available to you. However, if you are able to come up with a clone of the PJ Garlic sauce that is only as good as that sauce, it makes no sense if the cost of the clone is in excess of the $0.75 that PJ charges for one of its mini-cups of that sauce. It seems to me that if one were to use real ingredients, like real butter and garlic juice, the resulting product should taste more like butter and garlic than if artificial versions were to be used. However, while some of the artificial flavors are not necessarily cheap, using real ingredients might prove to be more expensive. This is not the time and place to do a cost-benefit analysis, but I think I would be inclined to start with the Shank's artificial butter flavor, if only to rule it out if it does not replicate the "butter" flavor of the PJ Garlic sauce. That flavoring might also include a coloring agent that might make the clone product a bit more yellow.

I do not know if the PJ Garlic product contains diacethyl. I remember a case a while back where a person developed severe medical problems because of exposure to the diacethyl. I think it was in a work context, however, and that the diacethyl was inhaled while airborne. If PJ is using that ingredient in its Garlic sauce, I would think that it would be in solution rather than airborne.

When you have a chance, can you tell us what you paid for the Shank's artificial garlic flavor and the two different forms of Butter Buds, and the quantities of the containers?

Last night a devilish idea crossed my mind but was reluctant to reveal if for fear that you would feel obliged to do something about it. The idea was to do some simple in-home tests like the simple hydration bake tests that we conducted over at the Mellow Mushroom thread in order to determine the water content of the samples of the MM dough. I don't offhand remember the temperatures we used to conduct the hydration bake tests but I would think that baking a sample of the Parkay Squeeze margarine spread and the PJ Garlic sauce at those temperatures might tell us how much water is in each product. To equalize the samples, the Parkay Squeeze sample might be a bit less in weight (say, 0.98 ounces) than the PJ Garlic sauce sample, which includes the added garlic ingredients. I don't know how volatile the other ingredients in the formulation are but if they are close in quantity they might cancel each other out in the final results.

I don't see any need to do anything on this front at this time. It may not turn out to be needed if you are able to come up with a good clone of the PJ Garlic sauce. But these little experiments are always fun and interesting to do, especially if they help solve the puzzle.

It looks like you have a lot of options available to you. However, if you are able to come up with a clone of the PJ Garlic sauce that is only as good as that sauce, it makes no sense if the cost of the clone is in excess of the $0.75 that PJ charges for one of its mini-cups of that sauce. It seems to me that if one were to use real ingredients, like real butter and garlic juice, the resulting product should taste more like butter and garlic than if artificial versions were to be used. However, while some of the artificial flavors are not necessarily cheap, using real ingredients might prove to be more expensive. This is not the time and place to do a cost-benefit analysis, but I think I would be inclined to start with the Shank's artificial butter flavor, if only to rule it out if it does not replicate the "butter" flavor of the PJ Garlic sauce. That flavoring might also include a coloring agent that might make the clone product a bit more yellow.

I do not know if the PJ Garlic product contains diacethyl. I remember a case a while back where a person developed severe medical problems because of exposure to the diacethyl. I think it was in a work context, however, and that the diacethyl was inhaled while airborne. If PJ is using that ingredient in its Garlic sauce, I would think that it would be in solution rather than airborne.

When you have a chance, can you tell us what you paid for the Shank's artificial garlic flavor and the two different forms of Butter Buds, and the quantities of the containers?

Peter

Peter,

I agree if I, or someone else can come up with a clone of the PJ Garlic sauce it makes no sense if the cost of the clone is in excess of the .75 that PJ charges. I don't know where all this will take me, but I can get different ingredients cheaper than at a supermarket in bulk. Maybe other members might not be able to and that is why right now I am trying things that might make a credible PJ Garlic sauce clone, just to see if it can be done. I opened the Shank's artificial butter flavor and it is white and sure doesn't taste good to me, so it doesn't have a coloring agent. I really don't know how they make that artificial butter flavor, but it is yucky tasted plain.

I agree if PJ might be using the diacethyl it would be in the solution.

I really don't know how cheap, or how expensive using natural ingredients would be to try to make a clone PJ Garlic sauce, but using fresh garlic kind of scares me if it is left out at room temperature. I have no idea how long customers would then let it sit in their cars, or somewhere else that gets really warm. That is one reason I stopped selling breadsticks and garlic knots. I used to use pretty much of the fresh crushed garlic, added other ingredients and olive oil to both of those products. Since Tom Lehmann posted different times what can happen when using fresh garlic if precautions aren't taken I had stopped selling those products because I don't want to make anyone ill.

This is a photo of the two register receipts for what I paid for the Butter Bud products and the Shank's artificial flavor. To add to those receipts I did pay 2.29 for the Parkay Squeeze.

Do you think PJ changed its Garlic Sauce recipe different times because of people watching their diets better for trans fats? I think I recall reading somewhere when I was searching about PJ Garlic sauce that PJ was one pizza business that wanted to change their garlic sauce so it would have better fat numbers.

Last night a devilish idea crossed my mind but was reluctant to reveal if for fear that you would feel obliged to do something about it. The idea was to do some simple in-home tests like the simple hydration bake tests that we conducted over at the Mellow Mushroom thread in order to determine the water content of the samples of the MM dough. I don't offhand remember the temperatures we used to conduct the hydration bake tests but I would think that baking a sample of the Parkay Squeeze margarine spread and the PJ Garlic sauce at those temperatures might tell us how much water is in each product. To equalize the samples, the Parkay Squeeze sample might be a bit less in weight (say, 0.98 ounces) than the PJ Garlic sauce sample, which includes the added garlic ingredients. I don't know how volatile the other ingredients in the formulation are but if they are close in quantity they might cancel each other out in the final results.

I don't see any need to do anything on this front at this time. It may not turn out to be needed if you are able to come up with a good clone of the PJ Garlic sauce. But these little experiments are always fun and interesting to do, especially if they help solve the puzzle.

Peter

Peter,

That sure was a devilish idea that crossed your mind. I really can't recall the bake temperature either over at the MM thread, but think it was somewhere right around 200 degrees F for the hydration tests. If you want me to do any of those experiments let me know. I am always in for experiments.

Yep, believe Norma did her experiments @ 200 and I cheated and did mine @350....interesting though that I got the same results.

I don't know, but would think that for the costs of these store bought ingredients; and the amount they will produce, I'm inclined to think it will come no where near the expense of the 75 cents per ounce PJ's cups. Plus you won't have to go to PJ's.

Do you think PJ changed its Garlic Sauce recipe different times because of people watching their diets better for trans fats? I think I recall reading somewhere when I was searching about PJ Garlic sauce that PJ was one pizza business that wanted to change their garlic sauce so it would have better fat numbers.

Norma,

Watching the progression of the PJ Garlic sauce formulation over the past twelve years or so, I would say that the major change was to get rid of, or minimize, the trans fats. This is an industry-wide effort that has been evolving over several years. Trans fats can only be created through the hydrogenation of oils. Whereas many producers of margarine products, including the stick and spread forms, elected to go to entirely different formulations that included things like palm fruit, palm and palm kernel oils, and healthy oils like olive and canola oils, PJ decided to stick with some hydrogenated oils. In the case of PJ, it was soybean oil. In the case of the Parkay Squeeze product, it was cottonseed oil. The trick was to find a way of getting the trans fat numbers down. One way was to replace hydrogenated oil with oil in liquid form. This is what PJ did with its Garlic sauce and ConAgra did with their Parkay Squeeze product. The other way was to get some of the hydrogenated fats down to the point where the trans fats are low. They didn't have to lower the trans fats to zero. Under FDA rules and regulations, if the trans fats per serving size of a product are less than 0.5 grams, the producer can express the value as zero in the Nutrition Facts. This is one of those cases where zero does not really mean zero. If you look at the Nutrition Facts for the PJ Garlic sauce and the Parkay Squeeze spread, they both show trans fat at zero. When I did my research on margarine products in general, and especially the stick forms, they invariably reported trans fats. You had to go to the soft blends or to some of the more modern and recent formulations to lower the trans fats numbers to zero or close to it.

In PJ's case, it is possible that it did not want to entirely change the formulation of their Garlic product and upset their ardent and loyal fans of that product. So, the changes were perhaps intentionally introduced gradually over time, with the hope that its fans of the Garlic sauce would not notice the changes and start complaining. It is also possible that over the years new and improved ingredients became available to PJ, possibly with some accompanying price reductions but without changing the product to the point where it would not be well received by its customers. On paper, however, it seemed to me that the older versions of the PJ Garlic sauce were better than the current version. I'm sure that John Schnatter, who founded and runs Papa John's, would like to continue to rake in the high profits from the sale of millions of those little tubs of Garlic sauce. Those profits helped him to build a home such as shown at http://www.backfirealley.com/images/john_schnatter_40000sq_ft_house.png.

Watching the progression of the PJ Garlic sauce formulation over the past twelve years or so, I would say that the major change was to get rid of, or minimize, the trans fats. This is an industry-wide effort that has been evolving over several years. Trans fats can only be created through the hydrogenation of oils. Whereas many producers of margarine products, including the stick and spread forms, elected to go to entirely different formulations that included things like palm fruit, palm and palm kernel oils, and healthy oils like olive and canola oils, PJ decided to stick with some hydrogenated oils. In the case of PJ, it was soybean oil. In the case of the Parkay Squeeze product, it was cottonseed oil. The trick was to find a way of getting the trans fat numbers down. One way was to replace hydrogenated oil with oil in liquid form. This is what PJ did with its Garlic sauce and ConAgra did with their Parkay Squeeze product. The other way was to get some of the hydrogenated fats down to the point where the trans fats are low. They didn't have to lower the trans fats to zero. Under FDA rules and regulations, if the trans fats per serving size of a product are less than 0.5 grams, the producer can express the value as zero in the Nutrition Facts. This is one of those cases where zero does not really mean zero. If you look at the Nutrition Facts for the PJ Garlic sauce and the Parkay Squeeze spread, they both show trans fat at zero. When I did my research on margarine products in general, and especially the stick forms, they invariably reported trans fats. You had to go to the soft blends or to some of the more modern and recent formulations to lower the trans fats numbers to zero or close to it.

In PJ's case, it is possible that it did not want to entirely change the formulation of their Garlic product and upset their ardent and loyal fans of that product. So, the changes were perhaps intentionally introduced gradually over time, with the hope that its fans of the Garlic sauce would not notice the changes and start complaining. It is also possible that over the years new and improved ingredients became available to PJ, possibly with some accompanying price reductions but without changing the product to the point where it would not be well received by its customers. On paper, however, it seemed to me that the older versions of the PJ Garlic sauce were better than the current version. I'm sure that John Schnatter, who founded and runs Papa John's, would like to continue to rake in the high profits from the sale of millions of those little tubs of Garlic sauce. Those profits helped him to build a home such as shown at http://www.backfirealley.com/images/john_schnatter_40000sq_ft_house.png.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me that after watching the progression of the PJ Garlic Sauce formulation over the past twelve years that the major change was to get rid of, or minimize the trans fats. I know it is an industry-wide effort that has been evolving over several years to get the trans fats down in different products, although I don't follow trans fats as closely as you. If you were watching PJ Garlic sauce over the past twelve years, then you weren't even on the forum then.

Thanks also for explaining how trans fats are reduced in margarine products, PJ garlic sauce and Parkay Squeeze. I didn't know a producer could report zero if the trans fats per serving size of a products are less than 0.5 grams.

I didn't know that Papa John's sells millions of those little tubes of Garlic sauce either. John Schnatter's home is beautiful and big.

I put some of the Butter Buds sprinkles in my PJ Garlic attempt I made yesterday and that sure made the taste better in my opinion in the buttery department. The attempt I made is now getting thinner too. I am soon going to throw it away, but two pinches of those Butter Buds sprinkles helped a lot.

I got around to my next attempt on the PJ Garlic sauce a little late tonight, but this is what I used and the results.

1 oz. Parkay Squeeze1 gram soybean/vegetable oiltotal of 3 tads (with mini-measuring spoon) after adding one and two tads of Butter Buds sprinkles3 grams total water after adding 1 gram and 2 grams of water 0.60 gram of the Shurfine garlic powder1 pinch salt between my thumb and forefinger

After tasting my attempt and PJ Garlic sauce the taste of mine is okay, and a lot better than yesterday, but not like PJ Garlic sauce. PJ Garlic sauce looks like it has more oil than my does and is thinner. I am going to let my attempt sit overnight to see if it changes in flavor at all and also might become thinner. I could have added a little yellow food coloring, but I don't want to do that yet.If anyone is interested this is what the back of the package says about the Butter Buds Natural Butter Flavored Mix. It looks like hot water needs to be added, but that should not be a problem if it would be left to cool down before adding the mixture of water and that product. The other one photo is also of how the granulated Butter Buds looks in the opened container.

Norma, I hear you. I've always thought that PJ sauce was very, very oily. it's almost like popcorn butter or something.

CDNpielover,

I am beginning to wonder why PJ Garlic sauce wasn't that oily when I first tried it at Reply 463 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg259807.html#msg259807 It was buttery tasting, but there was more separation in that PJ garlic sauce than the one I recently opened. It can be seen what the PJ Garlic sauce looked like in the squeeze bottle at Reply 453 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg259767.html#msg259767 I watched that shift manager squirt that PJ Garlic Sauce on the skin of the breadsticks and it sure didn't look like the PJ Garlic sauce I recently opened. In that photo of the PJ Garlic sauce in the squeeze bottle it can be seen the separation of the oil (or whatever it is) from the other ingredients. When I watched the shift manager squirt that out in a spiral pattern it sure didn't look oily and squirted out in a nice spiral pattern and I didn't see it oil off at all. I even wonder by looking at that photo how much oil to other ingredients ratio there is. Maybe that could help me determine how much oil to add (or some other product, other than oil), or at least help somewhat.

I agree with you that it almost tastes like the buttery flavor that is put on popcorn and the second container I opened is almost that oily. I wonder what kind of product can be used to make the PJ Garlic Sauce that isn't that high in trans fats. I don't know when I am going to open another container of the PJ Garlic sauce, but I am interested in seeing if it is anything different in how it separates. That has me stumped too. I wish I still had some of the buttery flavoring stuff we used to put on popcorn. I think that would make the consistency and flavor right, but then the trans fat probably would be way off.