BentElbow11 wrote:Interesting...was there a big spread in weight of the 2 Saints you were throwing? Even in Opto Air discs it can make a noticeable difference. The other being the wind conditions, especially when throwing lighter weight 'Air' discs. The Saint is a pretty easy disc to throw straight and fairly long, especially in Opto Air. Good luck.

The first one was 150g, and the second one is 148g. Both were being thrown late in the evening in dead calm air - the only way to really compare two discs. I took the new one back out today, and if I throw it flat, it turns right, and never comes back, traveling about 250', landing 30 or 40 feet or more to the right of the throw line with no fade back whatsoever. If I put a few degrees of hyzer on it on release, it straightens up, turns a little right, and fades back to the left for a nice, straight "S" throw. The first sticky topic in this category is about inconsistencies in Latitude molds. Interesting read.

I've also got a Bolt and a King. The King is supposed to be more stable. It isn't. If I don't release the King on a hyzer, it turns right and never comes back, landing with no fade, well right of the throw line. The Bolt tends to go straight if released flat. Maybe I just throw weird.

"If I put a few degrees of hyzer on it on release, it straightens up, turns a little right, and fades back to the left for a nice, straight "S" throw."

This sounds more like how the Saint should fly...under adequate power.

There is inconsistency in Latitude 64 and other mfgrs molds from one run to the next, but it's usually related to the amount of dome or lack there of. That can change stability right there, especially PLH where the flat topped disc will pull the leading edge up, and the domey disc will result in it drooping down lower. Maybe match those 2 Saints up side by side and compare the amount of dome and PLH, see if there's a big variance.

I've always felt the Bolt and King are the same disc with different names. Again, discounting wildly inconsistent throws on your part, compare dome and PLH on the Bolt and King too.

Then there's differences in stability among the same mold based on which plastic. The three main contributors to flight variation within a mold are weight, plastic, and molding inconsistencies. Molding inconsistencies are a pain when buying new discs which you expect to fly as advertised, or when replacing discs, especially online.

BentElbow11 wrote: "If I put a few degrees of hyzer on it on release, it straightens up, turns a little right, and fades back to the left for a nice, straight "S" throw."

This sounds more like how the Saint should fly...under adequate power.

There is inconsistency in Latitude 64 and other mfgrs molds from one run to the next, but it's usually related to the amount of dome or lack there of. That can change stability right there, especially PLH where the flat topped disc will pull the leading edge up, and the domey disc will result in it drooping down lower. Maybe match those 2 Saints up side by side and compare the amount of dome and PLH, see if there's a big variance.

I've always felt the Bolt and King are the same disc with different names. Again, discounting wildly inconsistent throws on your part, compare dome and PLH on the Bolt and King too.

Then there's differences in stability among the same mold based on which plastic. The three main contributors to flight variation within a mold are weight, plastic, and molding inconsistencies. Molding inconsistencies are a pain when buying new discs which you expect to fly as advertised, or when replacing discs, especially online.

My best throws with the Bolt and King are 280 to 300 feet - that's an honest 300 feet. I've seen plenty of people who claim to throw 350 to 400 feet, but never seem to when I'm around. Most of my throws with the Saint are probably close to 250 to 270 feet, and with the Bolt/King, maybe 280 feet. I'm beginning to think I'm torquing the discs and that is what is making them anhyzer the whole way. I'm also beginning to think I'm trying to throw discs that are beyond my capabilities, even though they go further than anything else when I do throw them right. I just can't seem to get very consistent with them.

You're not getting the Bolt or King nearly up to cruising speed, too much disc for you at 280-300 ft of power. They are indeed 400+ ft drivers. I would work on the Saint and even slower speed fairway drivers until you can get those to at least 300 ft before revisiting any wide-rimmed stuff.

Torquing over or using an anhyzer release is one way for underpowered throwers to squeeze out at least some distance from either high speed or overstable drivers through an exaggerated S curve. It's not preferable and will mess up your form bigtime. If you want to throw a higher speed driver at 280-300 ft power level, stick with understable ones like the Mamba, TD2, Avenger SS, etc. They will at least allow you to develop proper technique (flat to hyzer release) and then you can go from there as you build up arm speed and power.

It is the discs varying not you alone at least i am sure. Kings come in two varieties and the majority are very much like Bolts but high dome high plh vips are much more hss and need more power. The flippy versions are actually ok for 300' throwers because of the lack of hss. They are horrible for close to and above 400' throwers flipping too much not handling winds. The more overstable Kings are nice but not headwind discs. Before the Crank it was the straightest ultra long disc that is not super fussy and not needing as much power as the big boy drivers like Nukes and Bosses.

Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.

BentElbow11 wrote:There is inconsistency in Latitude 64 and other mfgrs molds from one run to the next, but it's usually related to the amount of dome or lack there of. That can change stability right there, especially PLH where the flat topped disc will pull the leading edge up, and the domey disc will result in it drooping down lower.

Yes, dome can correlate with stability changes, but it's not causing them. Dome influences mainly glide (bigger dome -> more glide) and speed (flatter -> smaller cross-section -> faster) characteristics, but stability is governed by PLH first and foremost (when it comes to manufacturing variances that is, mold/wing shape is obviously more important than that). While it is true that some discs/runs can follow a pattern like "flat discs are more overstable" or "domey discs are more overstable", that by itself is unreliable. When I've gone through stacks of the same mold in the same plastic I've found high PLH discs in the same pile that could be both domey or flat, as well as low PLH ones that could be domey or flat. Some discs though follow it for the majority of runs at least, for example completely flat Champ Firebirds tend to be very high PLH no matter the run.

TL;DR: While dome can correlate with stability, be sure to check PLH if at all possible to be sure.

Parks wrote:If the posts on this forum are any indication, the PD is like a Teebird with sunshine coming out of its butthole so hard that it flies faster.

BentElbow11 wrote:There is inconsistency in Latitude 64 and other mfgrs molds from one run to the next, but it's usually related to the amount of dome or lack there of. That can change stability right there, especially PLH where the flat topped disc will pull the leading edge up, and the domey disc will result in it drooping down lower.

Yes, dome can correlate with stability changes, but it's not causing them. Dome influences mainly glide (bigger dome -> more glide) and speed (flatter -> smaller cross-section -> faster) characteristics, but stability is governed by PLH first and foremost (when it comes to manufacturing variances that is, mold/wing shape is obviously more important than that). While it is true that some discs/runs can follow a pattern like "flat discs are more overstable" or "domey discs are more overstable", that by itself is unreliable. When I've gone through stacks of the same mold in the same plastic I've found high PLH discs in the same pile that could be both domey or flat, as well as low PLH ones that could be domey or flat. Some discs though follow it for the majority of runs at least, for example completely flat Champ Firebirds tend to be very high PLH no matter the run.

TL;DR: While dome can correlate with stability, be sure to check PLH if at all possible to be sure.

I agree that flat topped discs have less glide. But I've also found flat topped discs to typically have higher PLH then the same disc with dome. Discs with high domes tend to have a drooping edge with lower PLH. I had a 150g champ Leopard with a very flat top and PLH so high it looked liked a Firebird, compared to my domey 167g champ Leopard. I've experienced the same kind of thing with QOLF's, Z Flash, Z XS.

There's correlation sometimes, even quite often, but I've seen too many examples to the opposite (both overstable domey ones and very understable flat ones) to recommend using the dome as a stability guide. PLH or bust. =)

Parks wrote:If the posts on this forum are any indication, the PD is like a Teebird with sunshine coming out of its butthole so hard that it flies faster.

Oh, definitely. I just disagree with the usefulness of domes. Especially Latitude produced discs have been very prone to being the exact opposite, being more stable with bigger domes and flippy when flat.

Parks wrote:If the posts on this forum are any indication, the PD is like a Teebird with sunshine coming out of its butthole so hard that it flies faster.