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Originally posted by Vendac

Such a narrow minded view...

1: Yes, TES is a sandbox. Do sandboxes work well for the general public when they include PvP. They do not. Once again, go look at UO (pre Trammel) as a shining example of a sandbox with PvP. Chaos is the word that comes to mind, lol. You have to split the PvP off into its own area which destroys the essense of a sandbox does it not?

2: Yep, I remember the in game protests on Pendragon. Do you even know what it is was about? Let me refresh your memory a sec: http://www.warcry.com/news/view/57559 <-- Good over view of the issues, but hardly PvP based other than people like to PvP in Emain Macha because it was the easiest. Check your facts please...

And what is wrong with clearly being able to identify your enemy at range in a game based on how they look? Is honestly not being able to look like whatever race you want going to destroy your immersion that much even though the stats and sklils you have available to you are exactly the same?

Typical of someone starting off with an instult.

1. Daoc is one of the FEW games with closed off faction lands. Playerbase 250k. SWG, Open world PvP with factions NOT closed off in any way shape or form...350k+. Thus endith your lesson.

2. Did you just try to make it sound like the people of Hibernia were protesting over PvE aspects of the game that was built around PvP? despite the PvP section in the link you provided, despite the "Making this class unplayableexcept as a follow-bot class seriously hinders Hibernia as a whole"

BTW, Pendragon was the FIRST...Jesus man even Jacobs talks about wanting to AVOID this very issue with CU and has gone on about it at length as one of his biggest mistakes, the kind that come with 3 unique factions.

As for your ending...why do you NEED it? Why do developers feel that if you dont have it, you wont be able to figure it out?!? Why take an IP where it doesnt belong and force it on it?!?

If you wanted DaoC2 that bad, why the hell arent you demanding it...because no other game company wanted the damn thing nor did they want to impliment its god aweful limitations.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

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1. Daoc is one of the FEW games with closed off faction lands. Playerbase 250k. SWG, Open world PvP with factions NOT closed off in any way shape or form...350k+. Thus endith your lesson.

2. Did you just try to make it sound like the people of Hibernia were protesting over PvE aspects of the game that was built around PvP? despite the PvP section in the link you provided, despite the "Making this class unplayable except as a follow-bot class seriously hinders Hibernia as a whole"

BTW, Pendragon was the FIRST...Jesus man even Jacobs talks about wanting to AVOID this very issue with CU and has gone on about it at length as one of his biggest mistakes, the kind that come with 3 unique factions.

As for your ending...why do you NEED it? Why do developers feel that if you dont have it, you wont be able to figure it out?!? Why take an IP where it doesnt belong and force it on it?!?

If you wanted DaoC2 that bad, why the hell arent you demanding it...because no other game company wanted the damn thing nor did they want to impliment its god aweful limitations.

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Originally posted by jtcgs

Originally posted by Vendac

Such a narrow minded view...

1: Yes, TES is a sandbox. Do sandboxes work well for the general public when they include PvP. They do not. Once again, go look at UO (pre Trammel) as a shining example of a sandbox with PvP. Chaos is the word that comes to mind, lol. You have to split the PvP off into its own area which destroys the essense of a sandbox does it not?

2: Yep, I remember the in game protests on Pendragon. Do you even know what it is was about? Let me refresh your memory a sec: http://www.warcry.com/news/view/57559 <-- Good over view of the issues, but hardly PvP based other than people like to PvP in Emain Macha because it was the easiest. Check your facts please...

And what is wrong with clearly being able to identify your enemy at range in a game based on how they look? Is honestly not being able to look like whatever race you want going to destroy your immersion that much even though the stats and sklils you have available to you are exactly the same?

Typical of someone starting off with an instult.

1. Daoc is one of the FEW games with closed off faction lands. Playerbase 250k. SWG, Open world PvP with factions NOT closed off in any way shape or form...350k+. Thus endith your lesson.

SWG's longest concurrent playerbase was around 250k, both games were a niche, besides SWG was gutted because it wasn't performing as well as it's themepark competition, rendering such a lesson moot. A far more plausible example would be EVE, as it's a niche within a massive niche (space sims/trading). Yet has done much better in the long term, it has as many players as the two combined.

I do not know of a game that suited my interests more than pre-cu SWG, but lets not try and use that as a basis of a game that did better than another, SWG was one of the biggest failures to ever grace the MMO scene. They did exxactly what you don't like about TESO, took an IP and used it for something other than it's target market. Massive IP popularity doesn't bring niche designs into mass consumer popularity.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

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1. Daoc is one of the FEW games with closed off faction lands. Playerbase 250k. SWG, Open world PvP with factions NOT closed off in any way shape or form...350k+. Thus endith your lesson.

2. Did you just try to make it sound like the people of Hibernia were protesting over PvE aspects of the game that was built around PvP? despite the PvP section in the link you provided, despite the "Making this class unplayable except as a follow-bot class seriously hinders Hibernia as a whole"

BTW, Pendragon was the FIRST...Jesus man even Jacobs talks about wanting to AVOID this very issue with CU and has gone on about it at length as one of his biggest mistakes, the kind that come with 3 unique factions.

As for your ending...why do you NEED it? Why do developers feel that if you dont have it, you wont be able to figure it out?!? Why take an IP where it doesnt belong and force it on it?!?

If you wanted DaoC2 that bad, why the hell arent you demanding it...because no other game company wanted the damn thing nor did they want to impliment its god aweful limitations.

1. People still pay to play DAOC. SWG is now free to play. Get back to me when SWG has been around that long.

2. Yes, that was the big complaint about HIb in the early days, PvE. They fail to bring up how bad the PvE was in Alb from 40-50 before the Darkness Falls and Shrouded Isle Xpac. From a PvP standpoint, bards are one of the best classes for PvP in a MMO, even with all their supposed problems at that time. Back then, and they still have, highest speed, endurance, insta and casted CC, heals and possibly insta amnesia IIRC. They are the epitome of the perfect support/CC class. Mythic made a mistake and fixed it with the Emphathy problem. The caster classes bitching about not havin any other CC abilities is rich by the way. Can you say baseline stun, which is still one of the most overpowered abilities in the game. They wanted the sun and moon, but refused to give up anything to get it. All casters had a weak casting line that was higher in utility. That was the way the game was designed.

And as I said before. The PvE side of DAOC was nothing more than a vehicle to get you to top level to play the real end game which is RvR/PvP.

Anyway, Im done arguing about DAOC mechanics, which you really seem to not understand. Did you even play DAOC for any length of time? Like more than a few months. I played for 9 years, I am very familiar how the mechanics work.

You have your opinion on the issue of race and faction. I have mine. What it boils down to is the fact it is nothing more than a superficial decision to have a character look a certain way. The stats, skill, classes will all be the same.

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It's important to note that MMO's have to follow a different set of rules from single player games. The TES series was always about playing a special, chosen hero, which is why he could be allowed to be any race and affiliation - he's special, it doesn't matter. This idea doesn't work in MMO's, because it makes every player special, while that just doesn't make any sense. It should be very rare for a certain faction to have a race that doesn't belong there, but you can't force that in an MMO.

I would prefer to be able to choose my faction for lore reasons only, though. Races often result in interest imbalances.

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AHAHA.... THIS is hillariious. I love how Elder Scrolls players are contantly talking like they're the "VAST MAJORITY" when in reality, this poll proves that 61% of people are either fine with, or HAPPY with, the faction locks.... Looks like ZeniMax got stuck listening to the "vocal minority", and let themselves change their gameplay because of that. Whoops!

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Originally posted by Qallidexz

AHAHA.... THIS is hillariious. I love how Elder Scrolls players are contantly talking like they're the "VAST MAJORITY" when in reality, this poll proves that 61% of people are either fine with, or HAPPY with, the faction locks.... Looks like ZeniMax got stuck listening to the "vocal minority", and let themselves change their gameplay because of that. Whoops!

Unless the "okay with" people would be okay with it either way, and then you'd have discount them and actually have to compare the people who liked it with the people who don't.

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Originally posted by jtcgs

Originally posted by Vendac

Such a narrow minded view...

1: Yes, TES is a sandbox. Do sandboxes work well for the general public when they include PvP. They do not. Once again, go look at UO (pre Trammel) as a shining example of a sandbox with PvP. Chaos is the word that comes to mind, lol. You have to split the PvP off into its own area which destroys the essense of a sandbox does it not?

2: Yep, I remember the in game protests on Pendragon. Do you even know what it is was about? Let me refresh your memory a sec: http://www.warcry.com/news/view/57559 <-- Good over view of the issues, but hardly PvP based other than people like to PvP in Emain Macha because it was the easiest. Check your facts please...

And what is wrong with clearly being able to identify your enemy at range in a game based on how they look? Is honestly not being able to look like whatever race you want going to destroy your immersion that much even though the stats and sklils you have available to you are exactly the same?

Typical of someone starting off with an instult.

1. Daoc is one of the FEW games with closed off faction lands. Playerbase 250k. SWG, Open world PvP with factions NOT closed off in any way shape or form...350k+. Thus endith your lesson.

2. Did you just try to make it sound like the people of Hibernia were protesting over PvE aspects of the game that was built around PvP? despite the PvP section in the link you provided, despite the "Making this class unplayable except as a follow-bot class seriously hinders Hibernia as a whole"

BTW, Pendragon was the FIRST...Jesus man even Jacobs talks about wanting to AVOID this very issue with CU and has gone on about it at length as one of his biggest mistakes, the kind that come with 3 unique factions.

As for your ending...why do you NEED it? Why do developers feel that if you dont have it, you wont be able to figure it out?!? Why take an IP where it doesnt belong and force it on it?!?

If you wanted DaoC2 that bad, why the hell arent you demanding it...because no other game company wanted the damn thing nor did they want to impliment its god aweful limitations.

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Originally posted by Sir7681

Originally posted by Qallidexz

AHAHA.... THIS is hillariious. I love how Elder Scrolls players are contantly talking like they're the "VAST MAJORITY" when in reality, this poll proves that 61% of people are either fine with, or HAPPY with, the faction locks.... Looks like ZeniMax got stuck listening to the "vocal minority", and let themselves change their gameplay because of that. Whoops!

Unless the "okay with" people would be okay with it either way, and then you'd have discount them and actually have to compare the people who liked it with the people who don't.

And a poll with only 170 votes is hardly accurate considering this website has thousands of users and of them prolly thousands of ES fans that hasnt or will not even vote. You also have to consider the many ES fans of the console market that could potentially be customers too which a vast majority arent seeing this poll or even this website. And your right about what you said the neutral side on the poll could care less either way so if you minus them the ones against faction lock wins by 1% so far. And even if you counted the neutral side the ones against is almost 40% which is still a lot of people if scaled the number up to the amount of players the usual mmo would get as subs. For instance if you were to count 40% of 350k people, thats a whole lot of people against it if u do the math. And businesses most likely aim for a lot more than 60% customer satisfaction.

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Originally posted by tkreep

Originally posted by Sir7681

Originally posted by Qallidexz

AHAHA.... THIS is hillariious. I love how Elder Scrolls players are contantly talking like they're the "VAST MAJORITY" when in reality, this poll proves that 61% of people are either fine with, or HAPPY with, the faction locks.... Looks like ZeniMax got stuck listening to the "vocal minority", and let themselves change their gameplay because of that. Whoops!

Unless the "okay with" people would be okay with it either way, and then you'd have discount them and actually have to compare the people who liked it with the people who don't.

And a poll with only 170 votes is hardly accurate considering this website has thousands of users and of them prolly thousands of ES fans that hasnt or will not even vote. You also have to consider the many ES fans of the console market that could potentially be customers too which a vast majority arent seeing this poll or even this website. And your right about what you said the neutral side on the poll could care less either way so if you minus them the ones against faction lock wins by 1% so far. And even if you counted the neutral side the ones against is almost 40% which is still a lot of people if scaled the number up to the amount of players the usual mmo would get as subs. For instance if you were to count 40% of 350k people, thats a whole lot of people against it if u do the math. And businesses most likely aim for a lot more than 60% customer satisfaction.

You lost us all at console market, ie. The destroyers of gaming.

Even ES fans dont know what they're talking about, always over compensating on what the ES games actually had

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Originally posted by tkreep

Originally posted by Sir7681

Originally posted by Qallidexz

AHAHA.... THIS is hillariious. I love how Elder Scrolls players are contantly talking like they're the "VAST MAJORITY" when in reality, this poll proves that 61% of people are either fine with, or HAPPY with, the faction locks.... Looks like ZeniMax got stuck listening to the "vocal minority", and let themselves change their gameplay because of that. Whoops!

Unless the "okay with" people would be okay with it either way, and then you'd have discount them and actually have to compare the people who liked it with the people who don't.

And a poll with only 170 votes is hardly accurate considering this website has thousands of users and of them prolly thousands of ES fans that hasnt or will not even vote. You also have to consider the many ES fans of the console market that could potentially be customers too which a vast majority arent seeing this poll or even this website. And your right about what you said the neutral side on the poll could care less either way so if you minus them the ones against faction lock wins by 1% so far. And even if you counted the neutral side the ones against is almost 40% which is still a lot of people if scaled the number up to the amount of players the usual mmo would get as subs. For instance if you were to count 40% of 350k people, thats a whole lot of people against it if u do the math. And businesses most likely aim for a lot more than 60% customer satisfaction.

Lol, I knew someone would try to justify their way out of this... What about "vast majority"? I thought you ES-loving carebears were the "vast majority". haha. Yea ...

And P.S: The "neutral" people you're referring to, indicated that they'd be FINE with faction locks... not that they'd be FINE WITH them REMOVING faction locks.

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I always see polls as a rough indication of tendencies or a pool of opinions and attitudes about the game and its design. Of course, it is only the most outspoken people who care enough about the game that they are willing to discuss it on an internet forum, but still, there is a high probabability that their opinions are shared by a few more people who don't participate in forums.

You still can't draw accurate conclusions from the numbers in these polls, because we really don't know how many of the silent majority would agree or disagree or have totally different views on a topic.

That's why the only thing we can do is look at examples where we know we can approach a somewhat accurate picture of the situation at hand.

I'll just give a brief example of my circle of friends and how this issue we have been discussing here in various threads now is affecting them.

For starters, there is me. I am the only one of my group of friends who bothers with forum discussions at all and keeps the rest up to date. I do that because we all tend to play the same MMOs together, with me and 2 of my friends being the vanguard and convincing the rest to follow. The rest consisting of family members and acquaintances from other online games and social networks.

Now I know that most of my friends are fans of the ES series. Ironically, most of them were also long time DAoC players, but that doesn't change the fact that they have a very simple approach to this whole debate.

If there is no option to allow us to play and chat together ingame while all having our race of choice, they won't buy the game and probably wait for WildStar, which is also on our target list and a game I will scout for them when it releases.

If they allow cross faction grouping and communication we will all preorder and stay with the game for a long time, because we all have been waiting to play together in the world of Tamriel. Personally, I would stay subscribed just for the setting, which is imo the game's greatest strength.

All in all there are about a dozen (12) people whose decision whether to buy this game or not hinges on the race lock issue. Not a huge number by any means and not indicative of anything, but just an example that does not rely on assumptions.

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Originally posted by Anakami

I always see polls as a rough indication of tendencies or a pool of opinions and attitudes about the game and its design. Of course, it is only the most outspoken people who care enough about the game that they are willing to discuss it on an internet forum, but still, there is a high probabability that their opinions are shared by a few more people who don't participate in forums.

You still can't draw accurate conclusions from the numbers in these polls, because we really don't know how many of the silent majority would agree or disagree or have totally different views on a topic.

That's why the only thing we can do is look at examples where we know we can approach a somewhat accurate picture of the situation at hand.

I'll just give a brief example of my circle of friends and how this issue we have been discussing here in various threads now is affecting them.

For starters, there is me. I am the only one of my group of friends who bothers with forum discussions at all and keeps the rest up to date. I do that because we all tend to play the same MMOs together, with me and 2 of my friends being the vanguard and convincing the rest to follow. The rest consisting of family members and acquaintances from other online games and social networks.

Now I know that most of my friends are fans of the ES series. Ironically, most of them were also long time DAoC players, but that doesn't change the fact that they have a very simple approach to this whole debate.

If there is no option to allow us to play and chat together ingame while all having our race of choice, they won't buy the game and probably wait for WildStar, which is also on our target list and a game I will scout for them when it releases.

If they allow cross faction grouping and communication we will all preorder and stay with the game for a long time, because we all have been waiting to play together in the world of Tamriel. Personally, I would stay subscribed just for the setting, which is imo the game's greatest strength.

All in all there are about a dozen (12) people whose decision whether to buy this game or not hinges on the race lock issue. Not a huge number by any means and not indicative of anything, but just an example that does not rely on assumptions.

I wish you and your dozen (12) friends the best of luck, in Wild Star.