November 2012 OU Stats

It's not your place to say that it's unrealistic for someone to have thorough knowledge in multiple tiers.

That being said, that guy's opinion on Chansey is utterly clueless.

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I don't want to disrail this thread but my point is I have the feeling that it's impossible to have knowledge to be able to accurately say that a pokemon should never be used in a meta when you're playing in 4-5 other metas.

To have a general knowledge of all the metas is possible, but to have enough to claim a Pokemon should never be used requires intimate knowledge of the tier to such a degree that it makes it seem impossible.It's hard enough to play enough over 1 meta to make that claim. Besides that. That was my opinion and when he made that Chansey claim and that gave me evidence for it as that comment was completely clueless.

To have a general knowledge of all the metas is possible, but to have enough to claim a Pokemon should never be used requires intimate knowledge of the tier to such a degree that it makes it seem impossible.It's hard enough to play enough over 1 meta to make that claim.

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Clearly you didn't watch McMeghan in the Grand Slam.

Anyways, is anybody else finding it odd that Dragonite, Starmie, and Salamence all actually lost usage in a tier without genesect? You'd think they'd see more, Dragonite and Salamence can't just spam outrage for fear of getting Ice Beam KO'd. Starmie has a fear of getting U-turned or Tbolted by a scarfed genesect. Starmie, I'd also think would see more usage, to use Rapid Spin to help the extreme rise in the Therian's usage. Any thoughts?

Anyways, is anybody else finding it odd that Dragonite, Starmie, and Salamence all actually lost usage in a tier without genesect? You'd think they'd see more, Dragonite and Salamence can't just spam outrage for fear of getting Ice Beam KO'd. Starmie has a fear of getting U-turned or Tbolted by a scarfed genesect. Starmie, I'd also think would see more usage, to use Rapid Spin to help the extreme rise in the Therian's usage. Any thoughts?

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I didn't have enough experience in OU Suspect to confirm this, but I heard that it was made of stall because it's more viable than when Genesect was around. Never mind the fact that there are plenty better stallbreakers than Genesect, but that's an entirely different topic.

So looking at the statistics again I'm wondering why deoxys-D is so low. He could easily pull off top twenty. Back in the deoxys-S era that thing was unstoppable as a full proof lead and got banned for being a guaranteed hazard setter or screen user. With Genesect gone the only real answers to deoxys are magic bounce, banded SE stabs like crunch on t-tar and faster taunters with mental herb.

So what does deoxys-S have that made it so much better than his OU cousin? Was it the fact he outsped starmie and had slightly higher offences? I'm not seeing how a pokemon super similar to a banned suspect who does he job nearly as well isn't getting usage above 20 at least.

Yeah I was also somewhat surprised that Deoxys-D wasn't higher up. I think it's mostly likely because weather is so dominant in current metagame. It doesn't really fit on weather teams that much, generally used more by weatherless HO teams. Also rain teams which is the most common weather can handle it somewhat easily.

What the? I like never see this guy -well prepare to see more of him now gene is gone

| 11 | Jirachi | 97925 | 11.028% | 80021 | 11.164% |

yeah he is a pain

| 13 | Rotom-Wash | 97148 | 10.941% | 84103 | 11.733% |

Expect him to be in top 10s in december

| 31 | Jolteon | 58383 | 6.575% | 46771 | 6.525% |

wow, this is so unexpectd, he actually got about 7% usage

| 41 | Hydreigon | 49861 | 5.615% | 38772 | 5.409% |

Now with gene banned, he is sooooo going to about 15 or 10 i mean jolteon beat him and he is utter crap - he was not before he won't be now

| 45 | Kyurem-Black | 44884 | 5.055% | 34117 | 4.760% |

700 BST and that crazy high attack? is the sr holding him back, bad defensive typing? really, hail has to get more popular now -he dosn't really like to use blizzard as his special move, prefering focus blast or earth power which can beat heatran and ferrothorn, which he could not otherwise, and his low use is indeed due to his typing he is rather easy to revenge

| 46 | Metagross | 43545 | 4.904% | 35716 | 4.983% |

how the beeeeeeeeeep?! it beat hippowdon tooo?

| 55 | Hippowdon | 31978 | 3.601% | 28649 | 3.997% |

this thing is way better than t-tar especially on hyperoffense i mean no one bothers using ttar look at all the ou sand teams, optical overload = ttar goes done

| 83 | Staraptor | 12530 | 1.411% | 10291 | 1.436% |

reckless shouldve broke this thing to 60 atleast whats wrong with some players? -with recklesss he forfits intimidate and becomes even more vurenable.

| 122 | Sandslash | 6498 | 0.732% | 4788 | 0.668% |

i see this guy a lot y is it here?

| 189 | Omastar | 2422 | 0.273% | 1927 | 0.269% |

this thing is beast, how is it here - because cloyster is better

| 547 | Wormadam | 12 | 0.001% | 10 | 0.001% |

Unless you get shell smash, never come back up!!!!!!!! (i mean, magby does better than u)

Yeah I was also somewhat surprised that Deoxys-D wasn't higher up. I think it's mostly likely because weather is so dominant in current metagame. It doesn't really fit on weather teams that much, generally used more by weatherless HO teams. Also rain teams which is the most common weather can handle it somewhat easily.

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Weather can't really use deoxys-D because perma-weather causes weather wars and weather wars bring tedious switching and tiptoeing around traps and status. However I was thinking about using the alien on a damp rock rain team. It suits the typical hyper offensive play he favours and allows the use of swift swimmers. I'm still working on it but its working decently, I'm thinking about a heat rock sun team featuring him too.

Rain itself doesn't really beat Deoxys, the best it does is usually carry a spinner because starmcruel have water STAB and forry has a single weakness which happens to be fire. It's just a shame starmie outspeeds gengar otherwise an all out attacker LO/thunder/hp fire/shadow ball/focublast Gengar would make the perfect spinblocking partner.

Weather is so dominant though and almost all of the weatherless teams I see have deoxys-D though. It's almost like Deoxys is the weatherless weather starter.

So looking at the statistics again I'm wondering why deoxys-D is so low. He could easily pull off top twenty. Back in the deoxys-S era that thing was unstoppable as a full proof lead and got banned for being a guaranteed hazard setter or screen user. With Genesect gone the only real answers to deoxys are magic bounce, banded SE stabs like crunch on t-tar and faster taunters with mental herb.

So what does deoxys-S have that made it so much better than his OU cousin? Was it the fact he outsped starmie and had slightly higher offences? I'm not seeing how a pokemon super similar to a banned suspect who does he job nearly as well isn't getting usage above 20 at least.

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Yeah, actually Deoxys-S is far superior to Deoxys-D in many ways. For a start, Deo-S has actual offensive presence - it doesn't have to resort to Fire Gem HP [Fire] shenanigans; it's got enough power to actually kill some stuff on it's own. Also, that Band Ttar you mentioned, which can kill Deo-D? Not necessarily so with Deo-S, as it can actually Superpower a banded Ttar for an OHKO. Also, Deoxys-S can function as an excellent dual screens lead, and also use a LO all-out attacker set, which is incredibly effective given Deo-S' good coverage, and blistering speed that will outspeed Choice Scarfers slower than base 110 speed. That's right - Deoxys-S can outspeed a Choice Scarf Terrakion without a scarf. It can also kill said Terrakion with Superpower.

There are a lot more reasons why Deo-S is better than Deo-D, can't think of them all right now; but it mainly boils down to Deoxys-S having actual offensive pressure, and being generally more multi-dimensional (i.e., able to run quite different sets) than Deoxys-D.

Actually, I have a question if anyone can answer. So many people are saying that Deoxys-D is broken, but how come nobody was saying this in BW1? I mean, I know we had Deo-S for a while which would have affected it's usage, but it seems odd that a poke that was so 'good' wasn't really picked up on for so long. Thoughts as to why that is?

Actually, I have a question if anyone can answer. So many people are saying that Deoxys-D is broken, but how come nobody was saying this in BW1? I mean, I know we had Deo-S for a while which would have affected it's usage, but it seems odd that a poke that was so 'good' wasn't really picked up on for so long. Thoughts as to why that is?

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it did start to pick up around the end of bw1 meta. the thing was that deo-S was in the meta for a while and it obviously overshadows deo-D - hence why the defense forme fell into UU and was eventually banned. later in the meta people started using deo-D for the same thing as deo-S had been used before, and it's picked up notably now. i can't attest to this personally, but i have heard talk of deo-D being significant in tournament circuits near the end of BW1.

Yay looks like Latias is finally getting some well deserved usage! Seems like Genesect being gone from the Suspect test really motivated more to use her, and hopefully with Genesect's departure she will see high usage like this on the actual OU stats!

Yay looks like Latias is finally getting some well deserved usage! Seems like Genesect being gone from the Suspect test really motivated more to use her, and hopefully with Genesect's departure she will see high usage like this on the actual OU stats!

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Definitely. Latias deserves the high usage. She needed more love all along, really. Its typing and stats make it like, the best check to Keldeo and Thundurus-T, two of the biggest special threats in the tier. CM ensures it does even better at doing just that (and Recover too!). Tyranitar's a bitch to deal with, but yeah, Latias is amazing and deserves the love.

The lack of Keldeo In standard OU makes me sad ad it is arguably the best scarfer in OU. A truly amazing mon that shouldn't be getting used less than Vaporeon...

As Gary said Latias made a huge leap from October stats in which people were actually discussing it dropping to UU. Latias is amazing with all the new threats like Breloom and Keldeo and the LO tank set, and imo its best this meta is one of the best offensive checks to Scarf Keldeo in Rain. Definitely a great poke to use which will rise with the ban of Genesect

Although I'm not sure about the end of BW1, Deoxys's usage definitely picked up with Genesect's usage due to the rise in hyper offensive teams. However, as both usages moved higher, due to Genesect's nature as a counter to Deoxys, its usage fell. I suspect that just like the suspect ladder usage stats, we won't be seeing much more of Deoxys-D after Genesect's ban.

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Although I'm not sure about the end of BW1, Deoxys's usage definitely picked up with Genesect's usage due to the rise in hyper offensive teams. However, as both usages moved higher, due to Genesect's nature as a counter to Deoxys, its usage fell. I suspect that just like the suspect ladder usage stats, we won't be seeing much more of Deoxys-D after Genesect's ban.

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With respect, I 100% disagree. Deoxys-D just lost a decent check / counter in the form of Genesect. I have no reason to believe that this would cause a drop in Deoxys-D usage. If anything, it would be the other way around.

To the first point:
*raises hand proudly*
Pseudo-gimmicky HO sun team with Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard as wallbreaker. It will either 2HKO or outspeed and 1HKO pretty much everything in the meta, including Chansey with ease. There is literally no safe switch-in, but it's easy to sack something. Send it in early-game and smash shit before foddering is little more than a minor loss. Gives huge advantage because it's so rare, people keep underestimating its wallbreaking power.

To the second:
Electivire does suck but not as much as, say, Scrafty in a tier of super-fast Fighting types (Scarf Keldeo lol outspeeds at +2 and obviously 1HKOs with Secret Sword, as does Scarf Terrakion), because it's got that interesting base 123 Attack vs Scrafty's lol 90 Attack. Not good, but actually quite threatening when it can nab a boost.

Whimsicott is amaaaaazingly annoying. It's like taking a fricking dump on your opponents with priority subseed and Encore... Ultimate team supporter and annoyer. Good for just flat-out stopping a boosting spree with encore then subseeding the opponent to hell and back. Level 1 is an option for gimmicks and healing 100% of your health each turn while maintaining priority.

Well i voted gene OU becuase, tho it did overcentralize the meta like nobodys business, it made a lot of playstyles revolve around him, which in my opinion balances rain out, now obv it got banned so now its time to confront to what was OU before genesect's release: rain spam. To be perfectly honest, i agree with lavos when he says ttar isnt breaking the top 10 next month, or pretty much any other weather starter not mamed politoed.

I don't understand all the scizor usage. U-turn is good. But its other selling point Bullet Punch is resisted by water and steel. That is a 4-5 members of some teams.

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Steel isn't exactly the best offensive type, but keep in mind that nothing is immune to it (unlike Breloom's Mach Punch), meaning with some entry hazards and a boost from Swords Dance and a Life Orb, Scizor will still clean up like little else. If we're only taking Choice Band sets, Bullet Punch can revenge kill some key threats that Mach Punch cannot, such as Venusaur, Tornadus-T, Salamence and Lati@s for example.

Jolly Mamoswines become increasingly common. I wonder if it is still advisable to run Jolly Breloom if not for Politoed, with whom it unfortunately only ties.

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Only if you're running the LO Low Sweep set - otherwise stick with Adamant, as you'll want all the power you can get. Most Timid Politoed run Choice Scarf anyway, and are KOd by a +2 Mach Punch, so running Jolly just to tie with it is pretty meaningless.

700 BST and that crazy high attack? is the sr holding him back, bad defensive typing? really, hail has to get more popular now

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I'd like to see more hail teams out there competing with the other weather teams, and Kyurem-Black gives people to try it out more.

However Abomasnow doesn't have the best resistances to keep coming in for weather wars, especially with a weakness to SR. With it's use so low compared to Tyranitar, Politoed and Ninetales, I don't expect it to rise dramatically.

To the first point:
*raises hand proudly*
Pseudo-gimmicky HO sun team with Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard as wallbreaker. It will either 2HKO or outspeed and 1HKO pretty much everything in the meta, including Chansey with ease. There is literally no safe switch-in, but it's easy to sack something. Send it in early-game and smash shit before foddering is little more than a minor loss. Gives huge advantage because it's so rare, people keep underestimating its wallbreaking power.

To the second:
Electivire does suck but not as much as, say, Scrafty in a tier of super-fast Fighting types (Scarf Keldeo lol outspeeds at +2 and obviously 1HKOs with Secret Sword, as does Scarf Terrakion), because it's got that interesting base 123 Attack vs Scrafty's lol 90 Attack. Not good, but actually quite threatening when it can nab a boost.

Whimsicott is amaaaaazingly annoying. It's like taking a fricking dump on your opponents with priority subseed and Encore... Ultimate team supporter and annoyer. Good for just flat-out stopping a boosting spree with encore then subseeding the opponent to hell and back. Level 1 is an option for gimmicks and healing 100% of your health each turn while maintaining priority.

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Charizard is an alright Pokemon, who can hit hard, even Chansey feels the pain, in the sun. Again, that SR Weakness really holds him back, but he has potential to be alright.

Scrafty is far more threatening than E-Vire at least. Jolly Moxie+DD Scrafty boasts awesome coverage in just two moves. He gives no fuck about that lol 90 Attack, cause DD and Moxie allow him to breeze his way through teams. In the right conditions, he can blow a whole team to pieces in a matter of time. Not saying it's unbeatable, but it has a lot of potential to be a deadly sweeper.

E-Vire has no threatening presence in OU, let alone RU. He is VERY predictable, because Motor Drive can be evaded thanks to Team Preview. If they try and use a Pokemon to lure it in, you can just use EQ or any strong attack. He may have a funny 123 Attack but he can't take advantage of it. No boosting moves, and he's weak. Doesn't matter if he has amazing coverage, because things take him down easily. "It's Super Effective"=/=KO.

SubSeed is a joke. Sure, it can annoy the odd shitty PS Ladder Kid once in a blue moon, but it's shut down by practically any Grass-type, which we have Venusaur and Ferrothorn. Also, Alakazam and Reuniclus don't give a fuck due to Magic Guard, and Espeon and Xatu can bounce it back. It's a horrible gimmick Pokemon who has no place on any serious team. And did I not mention that Tornadus-T sends Whimsy running for its money?

That aside, I believe Hail deserves more usage. As a remotely competent user of hail, I've managed to pull off numerous hail teams with success, such as a nice hail offense with Abomasnow, Kyurem-B, Mienshao, and Starmie.

SubSeed is a joke. Sure, it can annoy the odd shitty PS Ladder Kid once in a blue moon, but it's shut down by practically any Grass-type, which we have Venusaur and Ferrothorn. Also, Alakazam and Reuniclus don't give a fuck due to Magic Guard, and Espeon and Xatu can bounce it back. It's a horrible gimmick Pokemon who has no place on any serious team. And did I not mention that Tornadus-T sends Whimsy running for its money?

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Whimsicott isn't good in OU because of sub seed.. although the guy you quoted may be thinking of her wrong.

She's good in OU because you can easily combine 2+ choice pokemon with her as basically nothing short of weavile (and dragonite/lucario if whimsicott is low hp) can set-up in front of a whimsicott... FYI max speed breloom, scizor and conkeldurr all fail to outspeed whimsicott.

She used to be OU but has unfortunately become one of those pokemon that have since been forgotten (like virizion and mienshao which i almost never see in OU now). The power creep hasn't helped her cause either, despite rain being the première, its hard for whimsicott to find a way in against most teams.

Whimsicott is good in OU for a few reasons:

-Forces switches, great for teams who stack hazards
-Deals with set-up attempts on choiced attacks, great partner for choice pokemon
-has access to a selection of priority moves AND u turn, making her a great headache/momentum grabber.
-priority tailwind combines nicely with pokemon like banded haxorus/salamence/kyurem-b and other hard hitters that are difficult to switch into (things like +2 nidoking/heatran sound good in theory but are easy to play around with clever switching)

On the subject of Infernape being bad - yes, I mostly agree. However, I personally used Infernape for a while as a check to Genesect. Volcarona just simply doesn't cut it for repeated switches into Genesect, as a Rapid Spinner is hard pressed to do anyhing against Genesect or spin, since Genesect OHKOs all the spinners in OU other than Tentacruel, so Volcarona can't really check it efficiently when it loses 50% of its health on the switch. However, Infernape is different. It can easily OHKO with Fire Blast, but unlike Heatran it isn't slower than Genesect and unlike Volcarona it doesn't have to rely on a spinner since it only takes normal damage from Stealth Rock rather than way too much damage. In a realistic sense it is also better than Ninetales at it, becaue who uses Ninetales outside of a Sun Team? Scarf Infernape packs enough power I would think to get past it, and MixApe can just hit the Rock Polish variants hard enough and usually survive a hit (other than a +1 Life Orb Thunderbolt, most likely). I know a few other people decided to do this too.

So now what that Genesect is banned? Simply put, I'm pretty sure that we will not be seeing as many Infernapes, and it will probably begin dropping in usage like it should have started doing long ago. Rain was always dominant and Infernape sucked against it, but that will probably change once again. As a side note, however, Infernape does suprisingly OK against Sandstorm teams (HP Ice can actually do some decent damage to Lando and Garchomp, Hippowdon hates taking a Grass Knot, Scizor and the occasional Celebi gets wrecked by a Fire Blast, Terrakion and Tyranitar dislike Close, Combats, and those things and Stoutland don't enjoy Mach Punches), but since Sand started falling around when Genesect appeared in the metagame, the effect on its usage couldn't be seen.