RollinThundr wrote on Oct 5, 2012, 11:33:I actually pretty much agree with all of this verno, but you have to do it smartly on both ends, we can't just raise taxes and continue to spend hand over foot, regardless, be it military or social handouts or whatever senator's pet project etc etc.

At the end of the day cuts WILL have to happen somewhere.

I think we all agree that there need to be cuts. But there also needs to be tax increases. Those can come from actual increases, or from a (desperately needed) simplification of the tax code that removes loopholes and deductions. Romney talks a lot about that, but refuses to put out an actual plan, which makes me think he doesn't actually have one. Leaving it to Congress to work out is not a plan.

Cutting social programs and things like PBS that don't even show up as a blip on the national budget is just pandering and not a serious attempt at fixing the problems. Putting two wars on the national credit card, while simultaneously giving a tax cut, really hurt us. If we don't have social programs to help people get back on their feet so that they can have at least the bare necessities that will allow them to look for jobs and show up looking halfway decent for interviews, we're never going to get out of the funk we're in. For all the rhetoric we've heard about Obama giving handouts, the welfare rules are about as tough today as they've ever been, aside from waivers that were granted to the states (most of them under Bush, btw) that gives people more time. This is all controlled by the states though. They determine how best to handle it, but it allows people time for re-training and such so that they have a better chance of getting off of unemployment.

We also still need to do more to fix SS and Medicare, but I don't see either side talking about that seriously. I'm totally not shocked.

Health care is still a problem. Obamacare has helped some, but doesn't do nearly enough. Romney doesn't appear to even have a plan. He's just made a lot of statements about how his plan would be run by the states and would totally have all the stuff we like from Obamacare, like covering pre-existing conditions, but it wouldn't have a mandate, so how it gets paid for is anyone's guess. He sure isn't saying.

I'm basically just frustrated with the choices we have. Neither party is doing what needs to be done. I'm only leaning to the Dems because they actually have a middle in addition to their left wing. The GOP really needs to clean house and get some moderates back in the party. Have you listened to these guys talk on the floor of the House? It's nuts. Most of them don't have the brain cells required to lead a trip to McDonald's, let alone lead this country.

Again well said, cept the part about Obamacare, it hasn't helped at all, it's making health insurance costs more across the board, and really, it abuses the commerce clause and is unconstitutional.

Well, the USSC disagrees about the constitutionality. Republicans never seem to be concerned about abusing the commerce clause when it suits their purposes anyway, so why the fuss now? As for whether it's helped, most of it hasn't even gone into effect yet, so I don't see how it could have done much at this point. Costs have been on the rise forever now, so what increases are you attributing to it at this point? It's still a lousy plan overall, but it's somewhat better than what we've had up til now.

RollinThundr wrote on Oct 5, 2012, 14:37:Romney at least is talking about fixing the tax code, something Obama said he would do 4 years ago, and we're still waiting for that to happen.

Yeah, well everything takes longer when you've got a party in charge of the House who have explicitly stated their goal of making you fail at every turn. Is it really that surprising?

RollinThundr wrote on Oct 5, 2012, 14:37:I'm fine with raising taxes, but I'm not fine with raising taxes unless there are major cuts across the board on what we're spending.

There's no easy way, sadly there really isn't but unless we want another great depression and ultimately becoming a 3rd world shit hole, it has to happen.

Cuts have been put on the table at something like a 3 or 4 to 1 ratio with tax increases, but the new tea partiers in the Congress weren't willing to even discuss it. Somehow Romney thinks he doesn't need a plan though and can just pitch it all over the fence to Congress to sort out. Why anyone wants to vote for that I can't understand.

What's Obama's plan then? You talk about working with congress, here's a guy who pushed a healthcare bill through while saying, you have to pass it to read it. And anything he can't get through congress he just writes up an Executive Order anyway.

Romney has a business background, Obama was a community organizer in one of the most corrupt states in the entire US. The trust you folks put in him is astounding since he's done nothing for 4 years except throw money out into the street essentially. 14 different alt energy companies he's given our money to that are now either failed or are in the process of failing.

All the bailouts, and no, as much as GM says they paid back everything they haven't.

Magically losing guns to mexican cartels then sealing the records to cover it up, just to push an anti gun agenda.

Being against showing ID to vote. (A law we should have had on the books decades ago)

Here's a president who hasn't passed a budget since being elected, one proposal being shot down 414-0 yet it's those evil republicans who are blocking his "progress"

I know one thing, if a republican president didn't pass a budget in an entire term, the media would lambast him. Obama? Not so much as a word about it, except the usual liberal line of Congress' fault, or Bush's fault.

At some point the man has to take some responsibility, he's been president for almost a full term now. Time to stop blaming the other side and take a little responsibility.

The second Obamacare passed, insurance skyrocketed, yes it was already raising but his bill has made it worse and will prolly end up with us on the whole paying more. Yay progress!

Why would you want to vote for another 4 years of promised change being the same ol same ol political bullshit?

RollinThundr wrote on Oct 5, 2012, 11:33:I actually pretty much agree with all of this verno, but you have to do it smartly on both ends, we can't just raise taxes and continue to spend hand over foot, regardless, be it military or social handouts or whatever senator's pet project etc etc.

At the end of the day cuts WILL have to happen somewhere.

I think we all agree that there need to be cuts. But there also needs to be tax increases. Those can come from actual increases, or from a (desperately needed) simplification of the tax code that removes loopholes and deductions. Romney talks a lot about that, but refuses to put out an actual plan, which makes me think he doesn't actually have one. Leaving it to Congress to work out is not a plan.

Cutting social programs and things like PBS that don't even show up as a blip on the national budget is just pandering and not a serious attempt at fixing the problems. Putting two wars on the national credit card, while simultaneously giving a tax cut, really hurt us. If we don't have social programs to help people get back on their feet so that they can have at least the bare necessities that will allow them to look for jobs and show up looking halfway decent for interviews, we're never going to get out of the funk we're in. For all the rhetoric we've heard about Obama giving handouts, the welfare rules are about as tough today as they've ever been, aside from waivers that were granted to the states (most of them under Bush, btw) that gives people more time. This is all controlled by the states though. They determine how best to handle it, but it allows people time for re-training and such so that they have a better chance of getting off of unemployment.

We also still need to do more to fix SS and Medicare, but I don't see either side talking about that seriously. I'm totally not shocked.

Health care is still a problem. Obamacare has helped some, but doesn't do nearly enough. Romney doesn't appear to even have a plan. He's just made a lot of statements about how his plan would be run by the states and would totally have all the stuff we like from Obamacare, like covering pre-existing conditions, but it wouldn't have a mandate, so how it gets paid for is anyone's guess. He sure isn't saying.

I'm basically just frustrated with the choices we have. Neither party is doing what needs to be done. I'm only leaning to the Dems because they actually have a middle in addition to their left wing. The GOP really needs to clean house and get some moderates back in the party. Have you listened to these guys talk on the floor of the House? It's nuts. Most of them don't have the brain cells required to lead a trip to McDonald's, let alone lead this country.

Again well said, cept the part about Obamacare, it hasn't helped at all, it's making health insurance costs more across the board, and really, it abuses the commerce clause and is unconstitutional.

Well, the USSC disagrees about the constitutionality. Republicans never seem to be concerned about abusing the commerce clause when it suits their purposes anyway, so why the fuss now? As for whether it's helped, most of it hasn't even gone into effect yet, so I don't see how it could have done much at this point. Costs have been on the rise forever now, so what increases are you attributing to it at this point? It's still a lousy plan overall, but it's somewhat better than what we've had up til now.

RollinThundr wrote on Oct 5, 2012, 14:37:Romney at least is talking about fixing the tax code, something Obama said he would do 4 years ago, and we're still waiting for that to happen.

Yeah, well everything takes longer when you've got a party in charge of the House who have explicitly stated their goal of making you fail at every turn. Is it really that surprising?

RollinThundr wrote on Oct 5, 2012, 14:37:I'm fine with raising taxes, but I'm not fine with raising taxes unless there are major cuts across the board on what we're spending.

There's no easy way, sadly there really isn't but unless we want another great depression and ultimately becoming a 3rd world shit hole, it has to happen.

Cuts have been put on the table at something like a 3 or 4 to 1 ratio with tax increases, but the new tea partiers in the Congress weren't willing to even discuss it. Somehow Romney thinks he doesn't need a plan though and can just pitch it all over the fence to Congress to sort out. Why anyone wants to vote for that I can't understand.

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." -- Bertrand Russell (I think...)

RollinThundr wrote on Oct 5, 2012, 11:33:I actually pretty much agree with all of this verno, but you have to do it smartly on both ends, we can't just raise taxes and continue to spend hand over foot, regardless, be it military or social handouts or whatever senator's pet project etc etc.

At the end of the day cuts WILL have to happen somewhere.

I think we all agree that there need to be cuts. But there also needs to be tax increases. Those can come from actual increases, or from a (desperately needed) simplification of the tax code that removes loopholes and deductions. Romney talks a lot about that, but refuses to put out an actual plan, which makes me think he doesn't actually have one. Leaving it to Congress to work out is not a plan.

Cutting social programs and things like PBS that don't even show up as a blip on the national budget is just pandering and not a serious attempt at fixing the problems. Putting two wars on the national credit card, while simultaneously giving a tax cut, really hurt us. If we don't have social programs to help people get back on their feet so that they can have at least the bare necessities that will allow them to look for jobs and show up looking halfway decent for interviews, we're never going to get out of the funk we're in. For all the rhetoric we've heard about Obama giving handouts, the welfare rules are about as tough today as they've ever been, aside from waivers that were granted to the states (most of them under Bush, btw) that gives people more time. This is all controlled by the states though. They determine how best to handle it, but it allows people time for re-training and such so that they have a better chance of getting off of unemployment.

We also still need to do more to fix SS and Medicare, but I don't see either side talking about that seriously. I'm totally not shocked.

Health care is still a problem. Obamacare has helped some, but doesn't do nearly enough. Romney doesn't appear to even have a plan. He's just made a lot of statements about how his plan would be run by the states and would totally have all the stuff we like from Obamacare, like covering pre-existing conditions, but it wouldn't have a mandate, so how it gets paid for is anyone's guess. He sure isn't saying.

I'm basically just frustrated with the choices we have. Neither party is doing what needs to be done. I'm only leaning to the Dems because they actually have a middle in addition to their left wing. The GOP really needs to clean house and get some moderates back in the party. Have you listened to these guys talk on the floor of the House? It's nuts. Most of them don't have the brain cells required to lead a trip to McDonald's, let alone lead this country.

Again well said, cept the part about Obamacare, it hasn't helped at all, it's making health insurance costs more across the board, and really, it abuses the commerce clause and is unconstitutional.

Romney at least is talking about fixing the tax code, something Obama said he would do 4 years ago, and we're still waiting for that to happen.

I'm fine with raising taxes, but I'm not fine with raising taxes unless there are major cuts across the board on what we're spending.

There's no easy way, sadly there really isn't but unless we want another great depression and ultimately becoming a 3rd world shit hole, it has to happen.

RollinThundr wrote on Oct 5, 2012, 11:33:I actually pretty much agree with all of this verno, but you have to do it smartly on both ends, we can't just raise taxes and continue to spend hand over foot, regardless, be it military or social handouts or whatever senator's pet project etc etc.

At the end of the day cuts WILL have to happen somewhere.

I think we all agree that there need to be cuts. But there also needs to be tax increases. Those can come from actual increases, or from a (desperately needed) simplification of the tax code that removes loopholes and deductions. Romney talks a lot about that, but refuses to put out an actual plan, which makes me think he doesn't actually have one. Leaving it to Congress to work out is not a plan.

Cutting social programs and things like PBS that don't even show up as a blip on the national budget is just pandering and not a serious attempt at fixing the problems. Putting two wars on the national credit card, while simultaneously giving a tax cut, really hurt us. If we don't have social programs to help people get back on their feet so that they can have at least the bare necessities that will allow them to look for jobs and show up looking halfway decent for interviews, we're never going to get out of the funk we're in. For all the rhetoric we've heard about Obama giving handouts, the welfare rules are about as tough today as they've ever been, aside from waivers that were granted to the states (most of them under Bush, btw) that gives people more time. This is all controlled by the states though. They determine how best to handle it, but it allows people time for re-training and such so that they have a better chance of getting off of unemployment.

We also still need to do more to fix SS and Medicare, but I don't see either side talking about that seriously. I'm totally not shocked.

Health care is still a problem. Obamacare has helped some, but doesn't do nearly enough. Romney doesn't appear to even have a plan. He's just made a lot of statements about how his plan would be run by the states and would totally have all the stuff we like from Obamacare, like covering pre-existing conditions, but it wouldn't have a mandate, so how it gets paid for is anyone's guess. He sure isn't saying.

I'm basically just frustrated with the choices we have. Neither party is doing what needs to be done. I'm only leaning to the Dems because they actually have a middle in addition to their left wing. The GOP really needs to clean house and get some moderates back in the party. Have you listened to these guys talk on the floor of the House? It's nuts. Most of them don't have the brain cells required to lead a trip to McDonald's, let alone lead this country.

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." -- Bertrand Russell (I think...)

RollinThundr wrote on Oct 5, 2012, 10:44:I dunno I don't think wanting to put an end to spending ourselves into oblivion is such a batshit insane line of thinking. Cuts have to happen somewhere, be it PBS or the Military or social handouts etc etc.

Military spending in America has been a runaway freight train for the past forty years. I'd love to blame everything on left leaning social assistance programs but they are a drop in the ocean compared to the the last two wars started under republican administrations. Making government smaller is not necessarily the answer either, there are several major areas of government that need to be expanded for more regulation and oversight. That's another long time Republican catchphrase that is outdated and needs to go away. We need more efficient and responsible government, making it smaller doesn't mean anything.

The Republican party needs a retooling, it can absolutely be the party that leads this country back to greatness but for too long we've been campaigning one way and governing another. We need the Tea Party lunatics out, they are driving the moderates in the party away or underground. We need a return to fiscal conservation and financial regulation where it makes sense. We need higher taxes, yes I am a Republican saying that. Our taxes pale in comparison to most other modern countries and we consistently want lower ones while desiring a higher standard of living. It is an equation that cannot work in the long term. A national sales tax could erase our deficit in under ten years. Taxation income needs to be more tightly controlled and budgeted, special dispensations should be made for addressing long term problems like the national deficit instead of allowing funds to flow everywhere freely. We need to heavily incentivize home grown jobs with more rebates and small business assistance programs instead of trying to fight outsourcing like the Dems.

I get so frustrated by how polarized politics in America have become, its more about fighting the other guy and retaining power than trying to solve anything.

I actually pretty much agree with all of this verno, but you have to do it smartly on both ends, we can't just raise taxes and continue to spend hand over foot, regardless, be it military or social handouts or whatever senator's pet project etc etc.

RollinThundr wrote on Oct 5, 2012, 10:44:I dunno I don't think wanting to put an end to spending ourselves into oblivion is such a batshit insane line of thinking. Cuts have to happen somewhere, be it PBS or the Military or social handouts etc etc.

Military spending in America has been a runaway freight train for the past forty years. I'd love to blame everything on left leaning social assistance programs but they are a drop in the ocean compared to the the last two wars started under republican administrations. Making government smaller is not necessarily the answer either, there are several major areas of government that need to be expanded for more regulation and oversight. That's another long time Republican catchphrase that is outdated and needs to go away. We need more efficient and responsible government, making it smaller doesn't mean anything.

The Republican party needs a retooling, it can absolutely be the party that leads this country back to greatness but for too long we've been campaigning one way and governing another. We need the Tea Party lunatics out, they are driving the moderates in the party away or underground. We need a return to fiscal conservation and financial regulation where it makes sense. We need higher taxes, yes I am a Republican saying that. Our taxes pale in comparison to most other modern countries and we consistently want lower ones while desiring a higher standard of living. It is an equation that cannot work in the long term. A national sales tax could erase our deficit in under ten years. Taxation income needs to be more tightly controlled and budgeted, special dispensations should be made for addressing long term problems like the national deficit instead of allowing funds to flow everywhere freely. We need to heavily incentivize home grown jobs with more rebates and small business assistance programs instead of trying to fight outsourcing like the Dems.

I get so frustrated by how polarized politics in America have become, its more about fighting the other guy and retaining power than trying to solve anything.

Wowbagger_TIP wrote on Oct 4, 2012, 22:11:People always wonder why the Dems can't seem to get their shit together in Congress. It's mostly because we only have 2 parties, and anyone that isn't batshit insane at this point isn't part of the GOP, so they end up either as a Dem or independent/3rd party but caucusing with the Dems. So the Dems end up with a wide variety of folks in their party with a wide variety of opinions, priorities and constituencies. They just can't move in lock-step like the GOP does. That means they're far less effective than their numbers would seem to imply too. I'm still on the fence as to whether that's a good or bad thing.

I really hate the two-party system. That, along with gerrymandering, the fixed number of congressional seats, and unlimited corporate money (even from international corporations), are really fucking up our democracy.

I dunno I don't think wanting to put an end to spending ourselves into oblivion is such a batshit insane line of thinking. Cuts have to happen somewhere, be it PBS or the Military or social handouts etc etc.

Granted there are plenty of republicans who have a spending addiction as well and they certainly get their share of lobbying from corporate interests, the thing is, dems do this too. It's not exclusive to one party or the other.

I think it really comes down to what an individual finds more important. Personally I firmly believe in being personally responsible for oneselves well being, and quite honestly, if cutting government programs like funding stuff like PBS or NPR along with other cuts (military included) we could start paying down some of our debt to China for example before they end up owning us out right. Granted they prolly wouldn't just say pay us all the money you owe us but if they did we'd be fucked.

It won't be easy but we need to do this and do it soon rather than just carry on status quo like we have been.

The second part is making government smaller rather than bigger, and I'll say it right now, making government smaller is not even on the list of things the dems would ever want to do.

People always wonder why the Dems can't seem to get their shit together in Congress. It's mostly because we only have 2 parties, and anyone that isn't batshit insane at this point isn't part of the GOP, so they end up either as a Dem or independent/3rd party but caucusing with the Dems. So the Dems end up with a wide variety of folks in their party with a wide variety of opinions, priorities and constituencies. They just can't move in lock-step like the GOP does. That means they're far less effective than their numbers would seem to imply too. I'm still on the fence as to whether that's a good or bad thing.

I really hate the two-party system. That, along with gerrymandering, the fixed number of congressional seats, and unlimited corporate money (even from international corporations), are really fucking up our democracy.

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." -- Bertrand Russell (I think...)

RollinThundr wrote on Oct 4, 2012, 08:35:wahh wahh wahh the poor gays/blacks/insert whatever minority the democrats are pining for this week. it's ok though, they have their white knight beamer on the job.

Minorities aren't a leftist catchphrase, there are plenty of black/gay Republicans, many of whom attend conventions and stand up for their right to be recognized as equal peers in society.

Yes and? How often do you see republicans pulling out the race card, pretty much never?

Now lets look at the Al Sharptons, Jesse Jacksons, and Maxine Waters of the world. oh all the time? ok then.

The funny thing about it all, is democrats actually want to keep minorites as a victim. They wouldn't get much votes otherwise. Prior to Obama's presidency how often did we hear about whites getting the shit kicked out of them just for being white? Not that often.

These days there's a story about it every other week just about. Even more so after Obozo just had to put his 2 cents in on the Zimmerman case. Go team Obama and friends, setting race relations back 30 years in one term. Good job!

I have no clue what your final point is, but how often do you see Republicans being anything other than wealthy straight christian males?

My point is, dems can't just treat people equally regardless of race sexual orientation etc. It's always a focus on the poor minorites not being treated equally and how if elected they'll fix it. Which is bullshit. They're fishing for votes and not much else.

Essentially they perpetuate this huge divide and how ongoing it is, when the rest of us just see people period. Course then again libs tend not to believe in personal responsibility either so I guess it's easy to see how they would believe there's just so much racism and that's why minorites that are on the lower income end stay there, it's always someone elses fault, like big business, or whatever.

Yeah sure thing there beamer all republicans are white religious males. yep. do you actually want to have conversation or are you too focused on tossing out one liner sound bites full of stupid?

RollinThundr wrote on Oct 4, 2012, 08:35:wahh wahh wahh the poor gays/blacks/insert whatever minority the democrats are pining for this week. it's ok though, they have their white knight beamer on the job.

Minorities aren't a leftist catchphrase, there are plenty of black/gay Republicans, many of whom attend conventions and stand up for their right to be recognized as equal peers in society.

Yes and? How often do you see republicans pulling out the race card, pretty much never?

Now lets look at the Al Sharptons, Jesse Jacksons, and Maxine Waters of the world. oh all the time? ok then.

The funny thing about it all, is democrats actually want to keep minorites as a victim. They wouldn't get much votes otherwise. Prior to Obama's presidency how often did we hear about whites getting the shit kicked out of them just for being white? Not that often.

These days there's a story about it every other week just about. Even more so after Obozo just had to put his 2 cents in on the Zimmerman case. Go team Obama and friends, setting race relations back 30 years in one term. Good job!

I have no clue what your final point is, but how often do you see Republicans being anything other than wealthy straight christian males?

RollinThundr wrote on Oct 4, 2012, 08:35:wahh wahh wahh the poor gays/blacks/insert whatever minority the democrats are pining for this week. it's ok though, they have their white knight beamer on the job.

Minorities aren't a leftist catchphrase, there are plenty of black/gay Republicans, many of whom attend conventions and stand up for their right to be recognized as equal peers in society.

Yes and? How often do you see republicans pulling out the race card, pretty much never?

Now lets look at the Al Sharptons, Jesse Jacksons, and Maxine Waters of the world. oh all the time? ok then.

The funny thing about it all, is democrats actually want to keep minorites as a victim. They wouldn't get much votes otherwise. Prior to Obama's presidency how often did we hear about whites getting the shit kicked out of them just for being white? Not that often.

These days there's a story about it every other week just about. Even more so after Obozo just had to put his 2 cents in on the Zimmerman case. Go team Obama and friends, setting race relations back 30 years in one term. Good job!

D-Rock wrote on Oct 4, 2012, 11:28:Can we PLEEEASE go back to talking about liquor now? I've got a hankerin' for a martini.

Might have to try some Four Roses or Woodford bourbon tomorrow. Do I have the cash to waste on new bourbon? I can't drink too much.

I need a good drinking chair. One thing I like about the yanks, they have "den's", Aussies just have their own bar. I don't like the bar look. Prefer to sit in a nice chair and drink, rather than at a bar on a stool. Can't fall off a chair... well if you do, it's time to stop.

Anyone have a good drinking chair?

Can't wait to have my own den.... chair... Deano playing... get someone in to smoke in the background. 50's style.