I understand that a single sip of wine for a recovering alcoholic can send them right back into darkness.

You might understand that sentence but a reality it ain't.

Oh, I'm not sure about that one Orthonorm. I am not an alcoholic so how can I say for certain? There are those very close to me that are. I would have to lean toward one drink can most certainly trigger a relapse. Now, whether that is a biological or psychological thing I won't speculate, but in the end does that even matter. If they can't have a drink without risking relapse then they can't have a drink!

This is pop-psych-addicition-studies-recovery gibberish.

I do know. You can test this out on your friends. Cook or bake something with alcohol. Let them eat it. See if they go on a bender from that "drop" they consumed.

"Alcoholism" and "alcoholic" are basically a trademarks anymore of AA. What a single drink ain't going to do is make you psychological nor physically dependent nor ruin your life nor send you off on a bender. Now telling yourself this over and over and having others tell you it as well . . . it does offer a great reason not to stop once you decide to have that "one drink" (which you have already decided is going to be a lot more than one) not to stop.

I'm about as bad a drunk as you're gonna find. A drop of wine ain't gonna do nothing, unless I've decided it will. There are no "triggers". None. This is nonsense. After you are relatively sober, drinking after that is a decision accompanied by a lot of gross motor movements over which you have nearly absolute control. You might be miserable. But you ain't gotta drink.

Again, after a reasonable degree of sobriety does such behavior enter the locus of reasonable control.

Anyway, back to the "topic" I guess.

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The Greek word oinos dates from at least as far back as Homer's time, is used throughout the OT and NT, and is retained in modern Greek as a prefix in words like oinologhos (wine scientist), oinopoleion (shop that sells wine), etc. Oinos has also found its way into other languages, such as the word enoteca (shop that sells wine).

The meaning of oinos has not changed one iota over the millennia. It meant, and still means, wine, fermented grape juice, without question. There is no wiggle room on this, despite what some well-meaning but misguided protestants try to say.

The Greek word oinos dates from at least as far back as Homer's time, is used throughout the OT and NT, and is retained in modern Greek as a prefix in words like oinologhos (wine scientist), oinopoleion (shop that sells wine), etc. Oinos has also found its way into other languages, such as the word enoteca (shop that sells wine).

The meaning of oinos has not changed one iota over the millennia. It meant, and still means, wine, fermented grape juice, without question. There is no wiggle room on this, despite what some well-meaning but misguided protestants try to say.

I wasn't sure if the Greek within the Septuagintz is as refined about the sorta wine being referred to as in the Hebrew.

EDIT: There is no "wiggle room" in Hebrew either.

« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 06:05:01 PM by orthonorm »

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I understand that a single sip of wine for a recovering alcoholic can send them right back into darkness.

You might understand that sentence but a reality it ain't.

Oh, I'm not sure about that one Orthonorm. I am not an alcoholic so how can I say for certain? There are those very close to me that are. I would have to lean toward one drink can most certainly trigger a relapse. Now, whether that is a biological or psychological thing I won't speculate, but in the end does that even matter. If they can't have a drink without risking relapse then they can't have a drink!

This is pop-psych-addicition-studies-recovery gibberish.

I do know. You can test this out on your friends. Cook or bake something with alcohol. Let them eat it. See if they go on a bender from that "drop" they consumed.

O.K. Not sure I agree but again how can I say for certain. I get your point and respect it. I don't think I'm going to try the experiment though!! lol

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There are heathens that live with more virtue than I. The devil himself believes Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Neither of these things truly makes me Christian.

It has been traditional for churches to use, not unfermented grape juice, but de-alcoholised wine (i.e. it was wine, but they got rid of the alcohol). In my experience, grape juice is a more recent idea. We use grape juice at our church and I go along with that because, although I think the early church used wine and that some of the symbolism is lost with grape juice, the scripture only specifies 'fruit of the vine'. I have been to a couple of Anglican churches when away on holiday, where a choice was offered. Anglicans go to the front for communion, and those with medical or conscientiouis reasons for wanting non-alcohol were directed to the appropriate line. I thought that was good. In that case I joined the main, real-wine line.

I have had communion with elderberry wine, and though I know you good folk think our sacrament doesn't work anyway (no priests etc), can you think of any reason not to use elderberry, in a country where grapes do not grow but elder is abundant? It is a deep red, and an excellent accompaniment to a real meal, as the early communion services were.

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"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15

If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

It has been traditional for churches to use, not unfermented grape juice, but de-alcoholised wine (i.e. it was wine, but they got rid of the alcohol).

A friend of mine has recently bought one. He won't repeat that mistake.

Quote

I have had communion with elderberry wine, and though I know you good folk think our sacrament doesn't work anyway (no priests etc), can you think of any reason not to use elderberry, in a country where grapes do not grow but elder is abundant? It is a deep red, and an excellent accompaniment to a real meal, as the early communion services were.

This is any easy answer. Many Protestants do not condone the consumption of alcohol.

the really really easy answer is that unfortunately there is a growing population of alcoholics and recovering alcoholics who can not drink wine at all. And, witnessing it myself, is a very sad thing which should not be mocked.

This is any easy answer. Many Protestants do not condone the consumption of alcohol.

the really really easy answer is that unfortunately there is a growing population of alcoholics and recovering alcoholics who can not drink wine at all. And, witnessing it myself, is a very sad thing which should not be mocked.

This is any easy answer. Many Protestants do not condone the consumption of alcohol.

the really really easy answer is that unfortunately there is a growing population of alcoholics and recovering alcoholics who can not drink wine at all. And, witnessing it myself, is a very sad thing which should not be mocked.

The quantity of alcohol in a spoonful of the Holy Eucharist is minute. We give it to babies. Plus, if one believes in transubstantiation, it's not really wine any more.

I am definitely on that page, however I have also endured being raised in a family where addiction was and is prevalent. The devil can, and will, use even just a sip of wine to throw an addict off the Divine Ascent toward God.

This is any easy answer. Many Protestants do not condone the consumption of alcohol.

the really really easy answer is that unfortunately there is a growing population of alcoholics and recovering alcoholics who can not drink wine at all. And, witnessing it myself, is a very sad thing which should not be mocked.

The quantity of alcohol in a spoonful of the Holy Eucharist is minute. We give it to babies. Plus, if one believes in transubstantiation, it's not really wine any more.

I am definitely on that page, however I have also endured being raised in a family where addiction was and is prevalent. The devil can, and will, use even just a sip of wine to throw an addict off the Divine Ascent toward God.

Bolded the pertinent bit.

The devil has no power whatsoever over the Blood of Christ. Partaking of it frequently is the surest way to keep the enemy away.

« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 06:46:32 PM by Arachne »

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This is any easy answer. Many Protestants do not condone the consumption of alcohol.

the really really easy answer is that unfortunately there is a growing population of alcoholics and recovering alcoholics who can not drink wine at all. And, witnessing it myself, is a very sad thing which should not be mocked.

The quantity of alcohol in a spoonful of the Holy Eucharist is minute. We give it to babies. Plus, if one believes in transubstantiation, it's not really wine any more.

I am definitely on that page, however I have also endured being raised in a family where addiction was and is prevalent. The devil can, and will, use even just a sip of wine to throw an addict off the Divine Ascent toward God.

Bolded the pertinent bit.

The devil has no power whatsoever over the Blood of Christ. Partaking of it frequently is the surest way to keep the enemy away.

Not on the Blood of Christ but on us. He can surely deceive us to take it as wine.

This is any easy answer. Many Protestants do not condone the consumption of alcohol.

the really really easy answer is that unfortunately there is a growing population of alcoholics and recovering alcoholics who can not drink wine at all. And, witnessing it myself, is a very sad thing which should not be mocked.

The quantity of alcohol in a spoonful of the Holy Eucharist is minute. We give it to babies. Plus, if one believes in transubstantiation, it's not really wine any more.

You mean, it doesn't have the physical and chemical properties of wine any more?

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If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

This is any easy answer. Many Protestants do not condone the consumption of alcohol.

the really really easy answer is that unfortunately there is a growing population of alcoholics and recovering alcoholics who can not drink wine at all. And, witnessing it myself, is a very sad thing which should not be mocked.

The quantity of alcohol in a spoonful of the Holy Eucharist is minute. We give it to babies. Plus, if one believes in transubstantiation, it's not really wine any more.

You mean, it doesn't have the physical and chemical properties of wine any more?

You'll have to ask a chemist to analyse it. But, properties or not, I very much doubt it would have the normal effects of wine. Unless you have seen many priests merrymaking after consuming a nearly-full chalice after Liturgy. (I haven't, so I'm curious whether anyone has.)

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'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls

This is any easy answer. Many Protestants do not condone the consumption of alcohol.

the really really easy answer is that unfortunately there is a growing population of alcoholics and recovering alcoholics who can not drink wine at all. And, witnessing it myself, is a very sad thing which should not be mocked.

The quantity of alcohol in a spoonful of the Holy Eucharist is minute. We give it to babies. Plus, if one believes in transubstantiation, it's not really wine any more.

You mean, it doesn't have the physical and chemical properties of wine any more?

You'll have to ask a chemist to analyse it. But, properties or not, I very much doubt it would have the normal effects of wine. Unless you have seen many priests merrymaking after consuming a nearly-full chalice after Liturgy. (I haven't, so I'm curious whether anyone has.)

My priest has admitted to feeling light-headed on some occasions. Sometimes he overestimates the amount of wine needed. A "merrymaker" he is not .

That said, it is my understanding that the wine and bread are still wine and bread and at the same time the Body and Blood of Christ. It's not either...or....

This is any easy answer. Many Protestants do not condone the consumption of alcohol.

the really really easy answer is that unfortunately there is a growing population of alcoholics and recovering alcoholics who can not drink wine at all. And, witnessing it myself, is a very sad thing which should not be mocked.

The quantity of alcohol in a spoonful of the Holy Eucharist is minute. We give it to babies. Plus, if one believes in transubstantiation, it's not really wine any more.

You mean, it doesn't have the physical and chemical properties of wine any more?

You'll have to ask a chemist to analyse it. But, properties or not, I very much doubt it would have the normal effects of wine. Unless you have seen many priests merrymaking after consuming a nearly-full chalice after Liturgy. (I haven't, so I'm curious whether anyone has.)

My priest has admitted to feeling light-headed on some occasions. Sometimes he overestimates the amount of wine needed. A "merrymaker" he is not .

That said, it is my understanding that the wine and bread are still wine and bread and at the same time the Body and Blood of Christ. It's not either...or....

No, it isn't either/or. Still, I'm having a hard time even imagining that the Blood of Christ, in whatever guise, would cause anyone any harm.

I know of several recovering alcoholics, staunch Catholics (including one celebrity, comedian Frank Skinner), who, far from avoiding Communion, make of it a weapon in their struggle. Even if one argues that RC sacraments are graceless, that attitude is telling.

As choy mentioned earlier, if we stay away from the Eucharist out of fear of alcohol, the devil has won.

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....But, properties or not, I very much doubt it would have the normal effects of wine. Unless you have seen many priests merrymaking after consuming a nearly-full chalice after Liturgy. (I haven't, so I'm curious whether anyone has.)

Do the Orthodox add water to the wine, like the Catholics do? That would certainly minimize some of the effects of the wine.

The brief rite of pouring water into the wine used for consecration is very ancient. Indeed, it is believed that Our Lord himself used wine tempered with water at the Last Supper as this was the common practice among the Jews and in Mediterranean culture in general.

Some form of this is found in practically every rite of the Church both Western and Eastern, except for a group of Armenian Monophysites.

Although the water is not essential for the validity of the sacrament, the Church holds it in great importance and it must never be omitted. The Council of Trent even went so far as to excommunicate whoever denied the need for this mixture (see Canon 9, Session XXII).

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If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

....But, properties or not, I very much doubt it would have the normal effects of wine. Unless you have seen many priests merrymaking after consuming a nearly-full chalice after Liturgy. (I haven't, so I'm curious whether anyone has.)

Do the Orthodox add water to the wine, like the Catholics do? That would certainly minimize some of the effects of the wine.

The brief rite of pouring water into the wine used for consecration is very ancient. Indeed, it is believed that Our Lord himself used wine tempered with water at the Last Supper as this was the common practice among the Jews and in Mediterranean culture in general.

Some form of this is found in practically every rite of the Church both Western and Eastern, except for a group of Armenian Monophysites.

Although the water is not essential for the validity of the sacrament, the Church holds it in great importance and it must never be omitted. The Council of Trent even went so far as to excommunicate whoever denied the need for this mixture (see Canon 9, Session XXII).

Yes. In memory of the 'blood and water' that came out of the spear wound.

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'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls

This is any easy answer. Many Protestants do not condone the consumption of alcohol.

the really really easy answer is that unfortunately there is a growing population of alcoholics and recovering alcoholics who can not drink wine at all. And, witnessing it myself, is a very sad thing which should not be mocked.

The quantity of alcohol in a spoonful of the Holy Eucharist is minute. We give it to babies. Plus, if one believes in transubstantiation, it's not really wine any more.

You mean, it doesn't have the physical and chemical properties of wine any more?

You'll have to ask a chemist to analyse it. But, properties or not, I very much doubt it would have the normal effects of wine. Unless you have seen many priests merrymaking after consuming a nearly-full chalice after Liturgy. (I haven't, so I'm curious whether anyone has.)

My priest has admitted to feeling light-headed on some occasions. Sometimes he overestimates the amount of wine needed. A "merrymaker" he is not .

That said, it is my understanding that the wine and bread are still wine and bread and at the same time the Body and Blood of Christ. It's not either...or....

No, it isn't either/or. Still, I'm having a hard time even imagining that the Blood of Christ, in whatever guise, would cause anyone any harm.

I know of several recovering alcoholics, staunch Catholics (including one celebrity, comedian Frank Skinner), who, far from avoiding Communion, make of it a weapon in their struggle. Even if one argues that RC sacraments are graceless, that attitude is telling.

As choy mentioned earlier, if we stay away from the Eucharist out of fear of alcohol, the devil has won.

Perhaps I could add that my priest is diabetic - and he has never felt that he was necessarily affected by the alcohol. It could very well be that by the end of DL he is already feeling somewhat light-headed due to his condition, and has perhaps mistakenly attributed his lightheadedness to the alcohol rather than to the lack of proper nourishment for his body.

Like you, I hold firmly that the Eucharist will not bring harm. I don't know how you can reconcile "The bread and wine might harm me" and "This is the Body and Blood of Christ".

And it's not just fear of alcohol that keeps us away, but other fears as well that have been discussed elsewhere. Unfortunate.

This is any easy answer. Many Protestants do not condone the consumption of alcohol.

the really really easy answer is that unfortunately there is a growing population of alcoholics and recovering alcoholics who can not drink wine at all. And, witnessing it myself, is a very sad thing which should not be mocked.

The quantity of alcohol in a spoonful of the Holy Eucharist is minute. We give it to babies. Plus, if one believes in transubstantiation, it's not really wine any more.

I am definitely on that page, however I have also endured being raised in a family where addiction was and is prevalent. The devil can, and will, use even just a sip of wine to throw an addict off the Divine Ascent toward God.

"The devil" can try whatever he wants, but it would take an act of God for a drop of alcohol to do whatever you think are describing. Then again, the devil only does what he does in virtue of God, so maybe you are right after all.

No, I've decided your post has nearly zero semantic content.

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No. Do they think it's alcohol, though? If yes, why not restrict it, or at least put it in a special category (a la peyote)? If not, our point stands against the nonalcoholists.

If I risk having Social Services step in if I'm seen giving my 4-year-old a sip of my beer (I kid you not), what makes Communion wine different in the eyes of the law?

Even if it was just bread and wine, the amount of alcohol they are receiving should be comparable, if not less, than the alcohol found in some medicines.

Anyway, we've been doing this for 2000 years and we haven't killed babies yet. Also, how can Social Services be there to prove that this is taking place when they should be dismissed before the Anaphora (I know that doesn't happen anymore).

This is any easy answer. Many Protestants do not condone the consumption of alcohol.

the really really easy answer is that unfortunately there is a growing population of alcoholics and recovering alcoholics who can not drink wine at all. And, witnessing it myself, is a very sad thing which should not be mocked.

The quantity of alcohol in a spoonful of the Holy Eucharist is minute. We give it to babies. Plus, if one believes in transubstantiation, it's not really wine any more.

I am definitely on that page, however I have also endured being raised in a family where addiction was and is prevalent. The devil can, and will, use even just a sip of wine to throw an addict off the Divine Ascent toward God.

"The devil" can try whatever he wants, but it would take an act of God for a drop of alcohol to do whatever you think are describing. Then again, the devil only does what he does in virtue of God, so maybe you are right after all.

No, I've decided your post has nearly zero semantic content.

Have you lived with an addict? Do you know much about it? I have witnessed this first hand. Can you explain "but it would take an act of God for a drop of alcohol to do whatever you think are describing."

This is any easy answer. Many Protestants do not condone the consumption of alcohol.

the really really easy answer is that unfortunately there is a growing population of alcoholics and recovering alcoholics who can not drink wine at all. And, witnessing it myself, is a very sad thing which should not be mocked.

The quantity of alcohol in a spoonful of the Holy Eucharist is minute. We give it to babies. Plus, if one believes in transubstantiation, it's not really wine any more.

I am definitely on that page, however I have also endured being raised in a family where addiction was and is prevalent. The devil can, and will, use even just a sip of wine to throw an addict off the Divine Ascent toward God.

"The devil" can try whatever he wants, but it would take an act of God for a drop of alcohol to do whatever you think are describing. Then again, the devil only does what he does in virtue of God, so maybe you are right after all.

No, I've decided your post has nearly zero semantic content.

Have you lived with an addict? Do you know much about it? I have witnessed this first hand. Can you explain "but it would take an act of God for a drop of alcohol to do whatever you think are describing."

Addicts are lightweights. And who isn't one anymore?

Try living with an alcoholic. I do. Every day.

Oh an the occasional alkie that stays with me as well.

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I understand that a single sip of wine for a recovering alcoholic can send them right back into darkness.

You might understand that sentence but a reality it ain't.

Oh, I'm not sure about that one Orthonorm. I am not an alcoholic so how can I say for certain? There are those very close to me that are. I would have to lean toward one drink can most certainly trigger a relapse. Now, whether that is a biological or psychological thing I won't speculate, but in the end does that even matter. If they can't have a drink without risking relapse then they can't have a drink!

It takes a bit more than a tablespoon of wine to kick off the allergic reaction that brings the craving for more. I am a recovered alcoholic with 22 years in AA and I have never once seen someone come back in the doors of AA saying "man, that communion wine sure got me this time". Most people I know in AA participate as usual.

I understand that a single sip of wine for a recovering alcoholic can send them right back into darkness.

You might understand that sentence but a reality it ain't.

Oh, I'm not sure about that one Orthonorm. I am not an alcoholic so how can I say for certain? There are those very close to me that are. I would have to lean toward one drink can most certainly trigger a relapse. Now, whether that is a biological or psychological thing I won't speculate, but in the end does that even matter. If they can't have a drink without risking relapse then they can't have a drink!

It takes a bit more than a tablespoon of wine to kick off the allergic reaction that brings the craving for more. I am a recovered alcoholic with 22 years in AA and I have never once seen someone come back in the doors of AA saying "man, that communion wine sure got me this time". Most people I know in AA participate as usual.

Congratulations on your years, but remember even the not so bright folks who started AA knew that the allergy thing was a model to make more understandable the way an alcoholic reacted to alcohol to the even less bright people they were talking to.

And thank you for saying recovered and not recovering.

Take it easy.

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I don't know how you can reconcile "The bread and wine might harm me" and "This is the Body and Blood of Christ".

Because it's not just the body and blood of Christ... it doesn't just appear to be bread and wine, but is in actual fact.

My point exactly. You cannot reconcile the two. If you believe one, the other makes no sense.

I guess I don't understand your point... what does sense or being able to reconcile things logically have to do with the eucharist?

Actually you are getting my point - we really do agree. I think there's just some way in which we are talking past each other. Let me try again: If someone claims to believe that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ, the statement "The bread and wine might harm me" contradicts that claimed belief. To hold the two beliefs is contradictory and illogical. That being said, yes it is true that the belief that the the wine and bread are the Body and Blood of Christ is not something to be determined logically - so in that sense we still agree that logic and the Eucharist have little to do with each other.

I understand that a single sip of wine for a recovering alcoholic can send them right back into darkness.

You might understand that sentence but a reality it ain't.

Oh, I'm not sure about that one Orthonorm. I am not an alcoholic so how can I say for certain? There are those very close to me that are. I would have to lean toward one drink can most certainly trigger a relapse. Now, whether that is a biological or psychological thing I won't speculate, but in the end does that even matter. If they can't have a drink without risking relapse then they can't have a drink!

It takes a bit more than a tablespoon of wine to kick off the allergic reaction that brings the craving for more. I am a recovered alcoholic with 22 years in AA and I have never once seen someone come back in the doors of AA saying "man, that communion wine sure got me this time". Most people I know in AA participate as usual.

Congratulations on your years, but remember even the not so bright folks who started AA knew that the allergy thing was a model to make more understandable the way an alcoholic reacted to alcohol to the even less bright people they were talking to.

And thank you for saying recovered and not recovering.

Take it easy.

Um,.... nope. The disease concept predates AA by a long time. Check out Dr.Benjamin Rush. His research back in the late 1700's and early 1800's put forth that conclusion. It goes back much further than that, but he is the one that brought much of what we know about addiction together for the first time.

I understand that a single sip of wine for a recovering alcoholic can send them right back into darkness.

You might understand that sentence but a reality it ain't.

Oh, I'm not sure about that one Orthonorm. I am not an alcoholic so how can I say for certain? There are those very close to me that are. I would have to lean toward one drink can most certainly trigger a relapse. Now, whether that is a biological or psychological thing I won't speculate, but in the end does that even matter. If they can't have a drink without risking relapse then they can't have a drink!

It takes a bit more than a tablespoon of wine to kick off the allergic reaction that brings the craving for more. I am a recovered alcoholic with 22 years in AA and I have never once seen someone come back in the doors of AA saying "man, that communion wine sure got me this time". Most people I know in AA participate as usual.

Congratulations on your years, but remember even the not so bright folks who started AA knew that the allergy thing was a model to make more understandable the way an alcoholic reacted to alcohol to the even less bright people they were talking to.

And thank you for saying recovered and not recovering.

Take it easy.

Um,.... nope. The disease concept predates AA by a long time. Check out Dr.Benjamin Rush. His research back in the late 1700's and early 1800's put forth that conclusion. It goes back much further than that, but he is the one that brought much of what we know about addiction together for the first time.

Umm . . . the disease / allergy model was popular by AA (I didn't say they invented or discovered the allergy (really dumb) or disease (slightly less dumb) model of alcoholism) and then they became confused and took the model literally at least in many of the rooms I've been in.

Alcoholism ain't a disease nor an allergy. We can get into how alcoholism is understood by AA elsewhere I guess, but it primarily a incredibly imprecise phenomenological judgement made by the one claiming to be alcoholic and those who would accept or reject that person's judgement.

EDIT: To the bolded, really there is no discussion to be had. If someone confuses "addiction" with alcoholism then they likely know little about either nebulous concept in any meaningful or formal manner.

« Last Edit: February 09, 2013, 07:35:06 PM by orthonorm »

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