Frederic Raphael on ‘The Invention of the Jewish People’

Posted on Feb 19, 2010

When I was 6 years old, my father was transferred from New York to London. As we crossed the Atlantic, in the M.V. Britannic, he comforted me by saying, “Now you can be an English gentleman instead of an American Jew.” Whether or not I achieved this transformation is not for me to say, nor do I greatly care: Hybridization can be a happy condition: for a novelist at least, it is more a privilege than an inconvenience to entertain contradictory elements.

How much of a Jew have I remained, despite my Anglicized accent? In terms of faith, I am (like many) lost to orthodoxy: I eat shellfish, do not read Hebrew, scarcely notice whether I am in Jewish company or not. I do not believe in the literal veracity of the Torah nor do I have any desire to live in a Jewish community, here, there or anywhere. In certain company, such a near-Jew can be accused of betraying his people or—a charge typically unsheathed by some militant brethren—of “self-hatred.” The topic has been copiously covered, but I doubt the accuracy of the charge and even, except in extreme cases such as Otto Weininger, the terminology.

It is not entirely disreputable (though it may be comic) for a man to resent the label others tie on him, or the expectations they then have of his character and duties. The comedy arises from the tenacity of what Shlomo Sand argues are as often “national” as Jewish characteristics. Jewish humor, for instance, is essentially Eastern European. There are not many jokes in the Bible. Jesus wept; but is not reported to have laughed. Spinoza was a great (Sephardic) philosopher, but no marked humorist.

There is an old Jewish story, which it would be politically incorrect to tell in full, that has the punch line (from a rabbi’s lips) “Look who wants to be nobody!” The revised version is less funny, but more ludicrous: In today’s Israel, if Sand is to be believed, it is not a matter of conscience or even, in some cases, of lineage whether or not a man is a Jew, but of authoritarian decision. Somewhere behind all this is the ghost of the 19th century Viennese anti-Semitic Mayor Lueger, who boasted that he decided who was or was not a Jew. It is no great scandal, still less a surprise, to find that the routines of his and other anti-Semitic discourse, rough or smooth, have generated reciprocal responses, not least of more or less aggressive nationalism and self-enchantment, in Jewish apologists. In the same way, Bismarckian nationalism, to which no one at the time took great exception, encouraged (to put it mildly) men such as Heinrich Graetz to propound a history of “the Jews” which would entitle his people to belong to the nascent, and expanding, new Germany.

The Invention of the Jewish People

By Shlomo Sand

Verso, 332 pages

By the same token, turned abruptly on its head, it is unlikely that Zionism would ever have achieved its measure of paramountcy if it had not been for Nazi racism (and what Lucy Davidowicz called “the Abandonment of the Jews” by the Allies). In that sense, there is some truth in the malevolent assertion, which George Steiner put in the mouth of his fictitious Hitler, in “The Portage of A.H. to San Cristobal,” that without Adolf there would have been no Jewish state. Zionism was as unpopular among emancipated Western Jewry (only some 2 percent endorsed it) in the 1930s as Nazism itself had been in Germany until the disaster of the Depression. It does not follow that the state of Israel should not, for that reason, be allowed to exist, still less that its founders endorsed or conspired with the Nazis.

Konrad Adenauer’s payment of reparations to Israel, rather than (as later happened, in some cases at least) to individual sufferers, was probably well intentioned. Symbolically, however, it can be read as standing for Germany’s (and the West’s?) paying off of all its debts to “the Jews.” Europe’s conclusive goodbye was wrapped in cash. Israel, it has further been argued (not entirely implausibly), was established so that Europe’s evicted Jews should have somewhere to go which was not either the United States or Britain. The victors did not want the despoiled. The British, unsurprisingly, used the Jews to enable them to divide and rule Palestine and then, in accordance with Foreign Office tradition, left them to face the angry Arabs in a war which, if the British had rightly calculated (and fixed) the odds, would lead to their elimination. Pontius Pilate has never lacked emulation in London.

None of this, however keenly asserted, validates the existence of Israel, nor yet does its devious creation, as a kind of noble dump for unwanted persons, invalidate it. It happened as it did, not because “the Jews” were or were not a single people, but in consequence of events over which no Jews, of any political persuasion, had effective control. Israel is, in that sense at least, a reactionary state. So what? It is a common phenomenon, as Zionists have proved, for the defeated to adopt, in whatever modified or supposedly sublime form, the tactics of those who humiliated them.

Ben-Gurion, for eminent instance, admired European culture, but wanted the Jews to become, once more, a “fighting people” (in truth, the Philistines had more often defeated the Jews than modernized myth found convenient to admit). The baggage Ben-Gurion wanted left behind, in old Europe, were the weapons of inferiority: He now wished the sword to be mightier than the pen.

George Steiner has also observed that “Jewishness, in the twentieth century, is a club from which there can be no resignations.” In the 21st, however, it is a club to which entry is vigilantly scrutinized in the state which, at the same time, is said to incorporate the eternal aspiration of all Jews. The vexedness of the question of Jewish identity has been modernized by the existence of Israel and by its leaders’ claim that it is the (exclusive) nation-state of the Jewish people rather than of those who live within its borders and are subject to its laws. For this reason, Sand tells us, at least one of its leading judges, Shimon Agranat, has maintained that “there is a Jewish nation, but not an Israeli one.”

Now Charterbus in your own words and without the sales link at the bottom. You will be reported, no free sales on the boards!

Anti-Judaism is just another way of saying they are lesser than you. It is both egotistical on a national level and a show of defiance against that which you think is better than you and you can’t stand it. The same happens on a personal level. I see it here and elsewhere following the same pattern, same psychological roots. No live and let live, but one-up-ones-ship over another but with far more dire and dangerous consequences. [Like pograms and death camps and ostracism from society etc. Jews aren’t the only ones but theirs is one of the most prominent and still living examples. Only now some of them do the same to others now that they have power, such as the Palestinians.

Ah which came first in this the prophecy before it happened or written in after? When the prophecy is well known all it takes is what the writers wish to interpret to mean. Was Simon a precursor to Jesus? Hard to say if they can just find that one missing word. Was it a call by that angel to resurrection or something more mundane?

You can’t get around it: You keep saying that you don’t have to obey God’s Laws given to Moses. That FUNDAMENTALLY means one of three things:
1) you are violating God’s Law.
2) God is not infallible, therefore not omniscient and omnipotent, and therefore NOT got.
3) It’s not God’s Law and the OT is nothing but a fairy tale made up by men.

You can squeeze your eyes shut as tight as you can and pray as hard as you like but you cannot get around that basic contradiction.

Now THIS got me laughing:

Everything that was to happen in the NT was prophesied in the OT.

Damn straight! No doubt about THAT!
You better believe that if I was charged with writing the NT I’d be as careful as a high-priced lawyer to make sure EVERYTHING I wrote mapped EXACTLY to the OT! Programmers call this a “Requirements Matrix” to ensure their software addresses EVERY specification agreed to by the client.

“Remember: He has to be descended from the House of David…be sure to write that in!”

What? You mean to say ITW thinks the guys who wrote the SELECTED scriptures picked to be included in the NT might have “cooked” them to fit the prophesies???

Dave:“I see you don’t see the basic contradiction: Your interpretation of Christ and the NT is fundamentally claiming the OT is flawed, which means the Word of God is flawed and needed to be “fixed” by Jesus. The Word of omnipotent, omniscient God is full of bugs and needs to be debugged….”

There is no contradiction. In the OT man was found guilty and sentenced. But they were told by God that a way of forgiveness would be provided. If they would follow the law, they would be forgiven.
But they were totally incapable of following the law, and instead made their silly religion out of it, practicing the letter of the law, but ignoring the spirit of the law. The OT also prophesied of a messiah, (saviour) who would come to save them.

The religious Jews interpreted that to mean an earthly king who would conquer their enemies, but in fact it was a spiritual saviour who would forgive their sins so they could enter heaven.

The image playout of this story was Moses, playing the saviour, and leading the Israelites (the people) out of Egypt (the sinful world) The Israelites needed to sacrifice a lamb and paint their doorjambs with its blood. This was symbolic of the “Lamb of God” having to shed blood for the sins of the people.
This act fulfilled the law and the prophets and the people were ready to be saved out of Egypt.

Everything that was to happen in the NT was prophesied in the OT. But the Israelites, with their ego, thought they were fullfilling the law themselves, and only saw the messiah as an earthly king.

Now the Messiah shows up 2000+ years ago to make a personal appearance to fulfill the prophesy of the “blood of the Lamb of God” dying for the sins of the people. Where each individual had been sentenced to death by the law, the sacrifice of a perfectly sinless one in their place would also satisfy the law, and it was done.

At this point, the veil was torn, and the priesthood was essentially ended. Now each man could approach God himself. The purpose was for each one to claim the forgiveness of the sacrifice directly to God, and to pray for others to be saved as well.

Where the OT provided salvation through the individual works of following the law exactly, the NT made it possible to be saved by simply acknowledging the grace and forgiveness of God and thanking the Messiah for his sacrifice.

So there is no contradiction. The NT is a natural extension of the OT.

The OT taught man the harshness of the world which had been become an example of being in bondage or slavery to everything around you. A very hard living. Like the Israelites in Egypt, when they finally pleaded to be taken out, triggering the Exodus.

The NT reminded man that there was a God who would not let them live and die in such a hell-hole, and would save them out of “Egypt” by sending a leader such as “Moses” (Christ)

The whole exercise is a very natural one as well as spiritual, (the natural only being an image of the spiritual) the idea being you need to know how bad prison and bondage are before you, as a collective mankind, will plead to be taken to a place of freedom. (promised land)

You can try to work your way out,(OT) but in the end when you have failed multiple times, you call on God to get you out, and he does it. (NT) And because you realize and remember how bad bondage was, you appreciate your freedom and your God.

It is nothing that thousands of parents have not done with their own children, punish them by giving them some thing very harsh (grounding) but before it is over when the child sincerely repents, you offer forgiveness and take them out.

It is all part of one reproducing oneself.

I know this is a poorly constructed post, rambling on, but I think the points I am trying to make are in there somewhere. The story is not as complicated as most try to make it, and there is not a flaw in it.

I see you don’t see the basic contradiction: Your interpretation of Christ and the NT is fundamentally claiming the OT is flawed, which means the Word of God is flawed and needed to be “fixed” by Jesus. The Word of omnipotent, omniscient God is full of bugs and needs to be debugged….

Instead you could teach that Jesus was, like Talmudic scholars before and after him, bringing an INTERPRETATION of The Law and its meaning. But, of course, that would mean he was just another part of the long history of Judaism—not good for those that want to establish a new and separate religion and power base.

Nothing can excuse the way that the Jews have treated
the Arabs in Palestine. They have stolen their
property, forced them off their land, taken the water
rights and the good land that benefits the Jewish
state. And then relegates them into a second class
existence. The Jews continue to declare that they are
a peaceful people and wish peace with their
neighbors, while at the same time are annexing and
forcing the people of Palestine off of their own
property. I guess that the peace the Jews want is on
their terms and their terms only, I bet the American
Indian would sure as hell like a deal like that. You
would think that the US taxpayer would get tired of
being assessed billions of dollars a year to pay for
the Jews war against the Arabs just so they can have
A homeland for their Religion. Why cannot the Jews
of the world pay for this Crusade. Just as the
Catholics support the Vatican. and did so on the
other crusades to the so called holy land. But then I
assume the Jews are very good at getting others to
pay for what they want, if not then they are
certainly good at playing the Jew card, and if that
fails, the holocaust card.

“As I have said on many occasions, the pure teaching of Jesus Christ is totally non-violent. For this is the new covenant of grace, forgiveness and unmerited salvation. In contrast, the old covenant established the rules of what one must do to earn salvation based on works.”DaveZx3

Where do you get this “pure” reading from Jesus the Christ? If not in the Bible then where? From your theoi that talks to you and gives you the “real” version of things?

In Leviticus he also says “Love one another” but in the full context there aren’t many left to do that.

“Only the atheist has to be terribly concerned with this image life and its death, because in his natural mind, it is all that he has.”

Yes of course as you should be. Even if reincarnation exists you still want to do good to get off that wheel of incarnation to reach the center or nirvana. Since we seem to have one go we should do right. As for death. You are forbidden to see if there is anything after. (Necromancy) Those pesky shades of the dead and all. However by you discarding the Bible and the accompanying religion of it makes it hard to discuss this with you. (Except when you use it.) You can fly off to whatever place, with no checks, as you feel like it.

But then since your personal revelation it too is sullied by your own fleshy human brain hasn’t it? That Fall from Grace and all from Eden.

But if you choose atheism, then never expect to understand the principles of the spiritual truth of God. These are antithesis to your natural mind. It has been written of you, that you are “forever studying, but never able to come to the truth.”

Maybe so but I didn’t “choose” that is how I am. None of that religious stuff can sway me by their promises alone. Yes a Natural mind born without the active DNA necessary to believe. It just doesn’t happen. I have studied it for some time, many such religions but no conversion experience. A natural variation. Most people are born ready to have a religion implanted. Some change what it is and a few switch between not having one and having one. But then that is science, that is Natural, which you & your ilk find as anathema.

But even if you deny God, do not deny the teaching of Christ, because these words can bring peace. If, even as Muslims, Jews and others believe, Christ was a great teacher, then pay attention to the teachings.

How can I deny what isn’t there? As for teachings some of it is good others not so much. None of it beyond human understanding or capacity to create it.

What about John of Patmos and his Revelations? His portrayal of Jesus was as warrior smiting all in his way with his sword-tongue is very different. Was he wrong too?

Regarding war, death and violence in the old covenant, these must be understood within the context of the natural mind of man, which attempts to identify and solve its problems as though the natural state is the reality of life. This is in contrast to the idea that natural life is just an image of spiritual life, which is the true reality of life.

Well since most of it was caused when JHVH had his Chosen People and led them to slaughter those on the land that was chosen for them to live on. That is Canaan. Who to blame? the Judeans or JHVH for ordering it? Your not the first one to say that our biological existence isn’t the only or best part of our existence—-prove it.

I do not mean the religion of Christianity, because it has been infiltrated by the natural mind of men and the evil minds of higher principalities. Religions are deceitful, as they take a legitimate spiritual truth and manipulate it for the sake of committing atrocities and injustices for their own interest. This is what religion is. It is anti-God. No where does Christ state that he is establishing a religion. Men did that.

As I have said on many occasions, the pure teaching of Jesus Christ is totally non-violent. For this is the new covenant of grace, forgiveness and unmerited salvation. In contrast, the old covenant established the rules of what one must do to earn salvation based on works.

Only the fool clings onto the old covenant in light of the new. The old is good for teaching and doctrine within a historical context, but no one should wish to go back to the rules of Leviticus when grace and forgiveness have been extended in their place.

This is clear within the teaching of Christ, that grace has replaced works. This is not to say that we should commit evil acts, because evil acts are proof that grace and forgiveness have never actually manifested in the life of the perpetrator. Evil acts are proof that one is not a follower of the teaching of Jesus Christ, though he may call himself a christian. Evil acts are proof that the natural mind has not been renewed by the Spirit of God

Regarding war, death and violence in the old covenant, these must be understood within the context of the natural mind of man, which attempts to identify and solve its problems as though the natural state is the reality of life. This is in contrast to the idea that natural life is just an image of spiritual life, which is the true reality of life.

The natural mind of man considers death as the termination of life, which is correct, but only for the natural or “image” of life. The reality of spiritual life is not terminated. This is the life which only God gives and God takes away.

Thus, as King David states, in death, one is only asleep awaiting resurrection. There is no terror in dying for the man of God. Whether you die at age 20 or age 70, it is only a difference of milliseconds when put next to the concept of eternity. And there is no pain in death for the innocent.

Only the atheist has to be terribly concerned with this image life and its death, because in his natural mind, it is all that he has.

But for the man of God, there is the realization that all lessons learned on this island of insanity, called Earth, are only that, lessons. There is no reality here, only image. Like a “B” movie, everyone being slaughtered, but when the scene is done, they get up and go home to the family and have dinner.

Learn your lessons, and when the time comes, be ready to make your choice, eternal life or eternal death. It really is your choice.

But if you choose atheism, then never expect to understand the principles of the spiritual truth of God. These are antithesis to your natural mind. It has been written of you, that you are “forever studying, but never able to come to the truth.”

But even if you deny God, do not deny the teaching of Christ, because these words can bring peace. If, even as Muslims, Jews and others believe, Christ was a great teacher, then pay attention to the teachings.

N-G’s point about the 613 commandments is actually quite true (direct translations are better than the KJB for making this argument). I have made that same argument with Orthodox Jews: If you suspect your wife is cheating, do you feed her dirt and see if her belly swells? (IE: see if she dies and rots) The rules for detecting leprosy, etc. are virtually indecipherable into modern actions.

I no more advocate a society based on the 613 than I do on Sharia. And certainly nearly 2000 years of Europe ruled by Christian beliefs shows we don’t want to live under THOSE either!

But Torah Orthodox OPPOSED the founding of Israel because Moshiach (the Messiah) is supposed to come and do it. They opposed it from the 1800’s through to and after 1948. Now, today, hypocritically, they justify the WORST excesses by using the same Bible, but now to say what the boundaries of Israel should be.

I guess the lesson is NEVER trust a deeply religious person: They will always be an irrational and intolerant fanatical bigot, regardless of the religion.

To me it is always the people who have the ultimate blame for it and religion is the facilitator of it.

I would say that the Ba’hi aren’t known for their violence either no matter who steps on them. If I am wrong here then someone please correct me.

When you have bad people running things a secular gov’t is no better on that than a religious based one. The price for such power is violence and death. (Not to mention torture or as it is known now “enhanced interrogation.)

Just as our original country only favored white men who owned property but we have gone far beyond that to take their words about “equality” to their logical conclusion. But with a great deal of fighting and marching in the streets for it. [Some are still fighting now for equality under the law.] However I would like to go back to the time where all drugs and gun ownership was legal. Now that is something we need to return to…for all!

The problem is that which Christianity in the Bible do you mean? Depending on where you read you can find it supporting violence, for pure reasons, and being against it in other places. Almost like it was written by many people and then a committee put it together, but didn’t proof read it very well. Personally I think you just don’t want to see where so much of the sweetness and light sit on an ocean of blood and misery. With more to come. You think Shar’ia is bad? Where do you think it came from?

The act of murder is rampant in the Bible. In much of the Bible, especially the Old Testament, there are laws that command that people be killed for absurd reasons such as working on the Sabbath, being gay, cursing your parents, or not being a virgin on your wedding night. In addition to these crazy and immoral laws, there are plenty of examples of God’s irrationality by his direct killing of many people for reasons that defy any rational explanation such as killing children who make fun of bald people, and the killing of a man who tried to keep the ark of God from falling during transport. There are also countless examples of mass murders commanded by God, including the murder of women, infants, and children.

The following passages are a very small percentage of the total passages approving of murder in the Bible. They are divided here into three parts: 1) Capital Punishment Crimes, 2) God’s Murders for Stupid Reasons, 3) Murdering Children, and 4) Miscellaneous Murders. This list is long, but it barely scratches the surface of all the murders approved of in the Bible.

Also—

Kill Witches

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)<Some later translations say it really is “poisoner” not a witch unless they dealt in pharmacology.>

Kill Homosexuals
“If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.” (Leviticus 20:13 NAB) <Bisexuals too.>

Death for Hitting Dad

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

Death for Cursing Parents

1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

Death for Adultery

If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT) <How many people would die for this?>

Death for Fornication

A priest’s daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

It isn’t looking good for you DaveZx3 and there are some who want Leviticus to be the law of this land too. Do you agree? It is in the Bible and was never been rescinded.

I haven’t looked at the Torah yet to see what kind of strictures they have against people. Well enjoy, there are some powerful, rich and connected people who want to force us to live by these laws right here. They are Biblical after all aren’t they? For all their faults our founders made sure we wouldn’t fall into theocracy. But then after 221 years (1789) they are much closer to it than ever before.

Western powers have been drawing lines in the
desert changing borders, names of states,
insterting governments
and interfering
every since oil exploration.
if it weren’t for that
nobody would care for a jew or arab

In fact the overwhelming majority of Israeli Jews strongly support the Zionist ideology.
When the Palestinian Jewish community under the leadership of the Zionist movement accepted the UN partition plan, it recognized the existence of the Palestinian Arab people and its right to political self-determination and statehood. Had the Arabs accepted the UN plan, their independent state would have been 62 y old, side by side with Israel. The lives of thousands, on both sides would have been spared and there would have been no refugees.
And Golda Meir never said that there are no Palestinians. She said that there is no Palestinian people, based on a lifetime of debates she had with Arab nationalists who vehemently excluded a separatist Palestinian Arab nationalism from their formulations. Here are some examples:In 1956, the PLO’s first chairman, Achmed Shukeiri, declared at the U.N. that:“There is no such thing as Palestine, which is merely the southern part of greater Syria.” In 1974, Syria’s president, Hafez Assad stated:“We must remind the Israeli government that we view Palestine not only as inseparable from the Arab nation, but as part of Southern Syria.
Israel is a full fledged member of the UN and recognized as the nation-state of the Jewish people by more than 150 countries. And 194 did not dictate the return of the refugees. It dictated the establishment of a reconciliation commission aimed at facilitating comprehensive peace between Israel and its Arab neighbors. Only one of its fifteen paragraphs alluded to refugees. Most importantly, far from recommending the return of the Palestinian refugees as the only viable solution, it put this particular option on a par with resettlement elsewhere.
Those clauses of 194 made it anathema to the Arabs, who vehemently opposed it and voted unanimously against it. The Arab states kept the refugees in camps using them as political pawns instead of absorbing them.
The Israeli “revisionist” historian Benny Morris has clearly stated that there was no premeditated plan to expel Palestinians. He wrote that the creation of the Palestinian refugee problem in 1948 occurred as the result of a war-a war that for the Jews was a matter of survival, and which those same Palestinians and their Arab brothers had launched. A war whose aim, which they have never denied, was to destroy the nascent state of Israel, and quite probably its inhabitants as well. But they lost the war, to Ender’s great sorrow. The Palestinians were the aggressors and dispossession was the price they paid for their aggression. Nonetheless, Israel emerged from the 1948 War with a 160,000-strong Arab minority (alongside 700,000 Jews) a fact that tends to undermine the charge that there was a blanket policy of ethnic cleansing.On the other hand, not a single Jew was allowed to remain in the areas taken by the Arab armies, an ethnic cleansing par excellence…
The Palestinian refugees will be able to settle in the future Palestinian state or third countries, with appropriate compensation (which should be given also to the Jewish refugees from Arab countries). the will not return to Israel proper. On that, both the Israeli hawks and doves agree.
And Jerusalem, under the name of Salem, is more than 5,000 y old. There were no Canaanite Arabs then… It has been the capital of only one people, both 3,000 ago and in the last 62 years.

So, Christians begin loosing ground to Islam and begin the Crusades and the Inquisition. Islam gets pissed and begins taking parts of Europe in order give the Infidels a chance to convert. That only gets so far as the Shia/Sunni/Persian/Arabic infighting keep them too occupied with each other to maintain their triumphs over the Christians.

It ain’t over yet folks.

Men create religions to consolidate tribal power and control other tribes of men.

A/Ibrahim(not his name yet) was a priest of the Sumerian deity EL. His tribe was small and had maintained a separate culture from many of the other followers of the Sumerian Trinity of Gods, so as a tribal leader, he declared a revELation from El(as in Israel -chosen of God, and Daniel - beloved of God) that the tribe could take no other God before HIM, El, and by the way, never say or write MY NAME again, except in a code understood only by the priesthood, so we can forget about that whole EL/Triumvirate thing. Abraham was a capable leader and warlord, and his tribe prospered. The priesthood he founded included much of the Sumerian religions myths of creation and the flood into their repertoire and maintained their ‘secret’ knowledge of the Sumerian calendar and astrological systems to keep themselves in position of power. They taught their tribe cultural racism and apartheid, but allowed enslaved and captured women to bare legitimate children, to avoid the inbreeding that even prehistoric humans knew, led to birth defects. So….slavery was ok, but not of your close neighbors, because that might defeat the purpose – diversity of the gene pool.

This tribe maintained its genetic and cultural uniqueness very successfully. The shared religion allowed leaders to exhort them to martial ferocity, when wronged, or to take some other tribes property and land. Remember the time they were supposed to kill every living thing in Canaan and make the land theirs? It took uncommon will, devotion, and brutality for such a small tribe to conquer a larger more technologically advanced civilization such as the Canaanites. This cultural bigotry served them well for over a thousand years. It also made them a universally hated tribe.

So, after they have been defeated and displaced several times, and finally completely conquered by the Romans, a group of radical Jewish rabbis, Zoroastrian priest, and Roman Freethinkers, used the local stories about a Jewish Rabbi/carpenter, embellished them borrowing heavily from the messianic traditions of Judaism which were stolen from the Sumerian religion, created the Christ myth. It took them quite a while, and they didn’t get around to recording all of this until decades after the events supposedly had taken place. But…it is much easier to make up events after the fact, when the people who were there/then aren’t around to dispute the ‘facts.’ Have you ever tried the party game where one person tells a story and it’s passed from person to person around a room and at the end the conversation is nothing like the original. Can you imagine what happens after 60-300 and thousands of people participating? The Emperor Constantine who never became a Christian, had his scribes compiled, edited and rewrite what was mostly oral tradition with a few poorly scripted letters.

A few hundred years after that, a learned merchant that lives a life of leisure due to marrying a much older but wealthy widow, studies the Jewish religion, and realizes its real problem is its exclusivity. So exclusive they won’t let him join. So he copies large parts of it, and creates a religion that invites everyone to join. In fact it often insists. He keeps the most holy spot in his homeland though, and discourages translations from the Arabic, so his tribe maintains Top Dog First of the First status. The End of Time myth involves a leader, or Great Caliph, that can really only come from his tribe. So, in typical tribal fashion, members of the other powerful and rival tribe in the region, the Persians, claim the Arabic descendants have gotten it wrong, and they are the true carriers of the flame.

means you supported the complete destruction of
Iraq, helped displace who knows how millions of its
citizens, supported the sloughter(sp) of how many
of its citizens
supported making their places of worship
where generals plot murder
supported the lies from our media about WMDs even
though you were chairman of all armed services
committees and intellegence committees.

To be a Jewish lawmaker on Capitol Hill
means to control all armed service committees
to keep the outdated NATO ALLIENCE and waste as
money in it as posible
It means to torpedo all Middle East peace talks.
it means you really don’t care about genocide unless
its you…............

I do know what it means to be a JEWISH lawmaker
on Capitol Hill….
It means to spend as much money posible
perpetuating nonsense and lies as to keep a foot hold
in the Middle East to steal oil.
It means defending the lies about 1948.
or 1967.

It means recycling public money into AIPAC.
It means…..................
everything bad with american foriegn policy

President Barrack Obama, owes it to us and to the
world to keep just one of his campaign promises..

Quit this silly deadly nonsense and talk himself
with the president of Iran and keep these talks going
until the Middle East problem is settled,

The Iranian president is right in making a mockery
of the Atomic Weapon issue and bringing the hypocracy
of Western Powers to light in front of the world.
Western media distorts and intentionally mis translates almost everything that comes out of his
mouth. It is still very embarrassing to me the
reception Columbia university gave him.
I sure am not afraid of the anti-Semite label
that is thrown upon everyone that that speaks
rationally about bringing lasting peace to that region.
Worry about what it means to be Jewish some other time

“But you cannot expect Jews to be indifferent to Israel. NOBODY is that way. The IRA survived on donations from Irish-Americans. Italian-Americans frequently maintain close ties to The Boot. Russian-Americans connect with Russia, etc, etc. But you say Jews cannot make the same connection with Israel without being traitors?”

Each of these -Americans hail from a nation where they have or had established family. Most Ashkenazi eastern European jews were established in Poland and Lithiuania for over a thousand years before migrating. Polish-Americans.

Now imagine Polish American expats demanding that Israel exist for Polish American expats everywhere because they are hated and everyone is out to get them. (Polish jokes) They will allow some Lithiuania-Americans and of course the inhabitant jews and indigents who live there, for now.

As comments of the type «[t]he arrogance of the ostentatiously anti-Israel Diasporites, Jacqueline Rose and Noam Chomsky en tete, suggests that the delusion of the Good Jew, who makes no waves, still has its eager tenants» demonstrate, it is unlikely that an objective discussion of the «Jews» - and in particular, Israel - is possible with Mr Raphael. I therefore limit myself here to suggesting that he consult the entry n?scor in his «large Latin dictionary», to see if n?scere is not noted as the infinitive (both active and passive)....

Please explain how 800,000 Palestinians “driven off” their lands has turned into “Jewish terrorist gangs such as Haganah, Palmach, Shtern and Argun used extreme violence to ethnically cleanse millions of Palestinians”

Huh? Since when is 800,000 “millions”? And I’m not even going to raise the question of how many were ACTUALLY driven out (“millions” is clearly impossible) of what is now Israel.

Let me put it to you this way: Find me ONE anti-Zionist here who doesn’t advocate the total destruction of Israel, either by allowing MILLIONS of Palestinians in who weren’t born there who will then take over and slaughter Jews sooner or later, or by total annihilation, and I’ll acknowledge THAT person is not a racist. There’s not ONE anti-Zionist that has a plan that will prevent the 5 million Jews in Israel from either being slaughtered or made stateless.

Criticism of settlement policies in the West Bank? I agree with them—I want Israel to pull the settlements out or warn the residents that they will come under Palestinian Law if they choose to remain, unprotected by the IDF.

Criticism of SOME actions taken in Gaza? I’m willing to listen. Blanket condemnation of Israel to reacting to rocket attacks? Sorry, wrong number!

Likud and Netanyahu? Bastards, to my mind. Just as dangerous to Israel as Hezbollah, if not more so.

But you cannot expect Jews to be indifferent to Israel. NOBODY is that way. The IRA survived on donations from Irish-Americans. Italian-Americans frequently maintain close ties to The Boot. Russian-Americans connect with Russia, etc, etc. But you say Jews cannot make the same connection with Israel without being traitors?

I only know of a few who put Israel over America—and they are in jail where they belong.

Night-Gaunt says:
“John Ellis, the Nazis positioned themselves within the mantle of Christianity not Secular Humanism.”

“But there is really no difference between Secular Humanism and Christian Humanism, for in practice then accomplish the same thing.”

That is correct but then you ignore what you just wrote.

Christianity:
“Do not use force to overcome evil. If they strike you on the right cheek, turn to them the other.”

That is your mistake that ruins your analogy. It is in error. Constantine made sure of that. Humanism is when people treat each other the way they wish to be treated. It can be in any philosophy or theology or none at all. However the Inquisition/Crusades had none as did the 20th century version with the Nazis who had the same kind of mentality. What the USA projects today. Very little humanism except among some soldiers is a few areas of domination.

Secular Humanism:
“Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth…life for a life.”

How many ways wrong? The “Eye for an eye..” comes from the old Testament doesn’t it? So that is part of Christianity then not Humanism of any kind then isn’t it? A misrepresentation then. Who do you listen to to get this tripe? You will find many Humanists, of all types, being against Capital Punishment (Death Penalty) including me. However I find many Christians who are for the Death Penalty. So how does that fit your twisted world?

Until the Jews of Israel consider all non-Jews to be equal to them as people, the same for those too in looking at Jews, no peace will ever come. Until everyone has an equal say and equal standing it will only continue in misery and death for the Palestinians. Job one. Convince the Radical Zionists that they can’t simply take others land because they think the Talmud mandates it. Everyone must respect each others rights or no real, equal and lasting peace will be obtained. Very simple to understand but very hard to accomplish.

ITW attempts to paint any opposition to Zionism as anti-semitic. Rather in fact, Zionism is anti-semitic. A large percentage of Israeli Jews are opposed to Zionism. Zionism is an ugly black stain on the history of an otherwise valiant and humane people.

Wolfowitz, Daniel Pipes, Richard Pearl and their ilk are part and parcel of the mammoth AIPAC. Daniel Pipes tried to stifle American academic freedom on US universities’ campuses with his “Campus Watch” to spy on Americans and prevent any debate or discussion of Israel’s racist policies and its grip on US foreign policy. Here is a brief on Israel’s history and policies:
“Israel” never ever recognized the existence of the indigenous owners of Palestine: the Palestinian people.Golda Meir once said “What Palestinians?”
Israel never implemented a single UN resolution since its anomalous and questionable creation including UN 181 which created it-by devouring large chunks of the would be Palestine state in 1947, nor UN 194 of the same year which dictates the return of Palestinian refugees now multiplied into seven million who are still living in refugee camps outside Palestine for the past 60 years.
Jewish terrorist gangs such as Haganah, Palmach, Shtern and Argun used extreme violence to ethnically cleanse millions of Palestinians and destroyed over five hundred Palestinians villages to prevent their return as per UN 194-which 60 years later Israel still refuses to implement. Israel was built on and continues to survive on respectively gang and state terrorism. Even Israeli revisionist historians have uncovered and documented Israeli ethnic cleansing to establish the racist state in 1947.
No land or resources are left whatsoever for a Palestinian state: Israel occupied 78%of Arab historic Palestine in 1947/8 and 22% in 1967 (West Bank, Gaza and most importantly Jerusalem which was built by the Canaanite Arabs long before there ever were Jews on earth) AND again Israel annexed-slowly but surely by implanting settlements in full day light- over 58% of the West Bank, Gaza, and Jerusalem-leaving less than 10% of original Arab historic Palestine for a Palestinian state??? Even the resent Israeli defense minister Yahoud Barrack once said: “If I were a Palestinian I would be a terrorist.”

Israel’s economic successes have been possible only because they have confiscated most of the fresh water in the region, then used $billions in American aid to prop up their apartheid theocracy. We have given more than $100 billion in aid, besides billions in weapons, and more than a billion a year is moved from our economy into theirs by private American support groups.

More than half of Israeli citizens believe they should return all confiscated lands and make retribution to those 800,000 persons, Christian and Moslem alike, whom were driven off of their ancestral lands in ‘legal’ Israel. We can’t have that discussion here because of the power wielded by AIPAC and Zionist controlled media outlets. A majority of Israelis recognize that the Zionist insistance on ignoring the UN designated borders of Israel and creating a nation with the mythical borders of the Talmud are counter to Israeli survival and morally reprehensible.

Any US citizen that promotes the interest of Israel above the interest of this nation should immediately renounce that citizenship and head for the newest kibbutz being constructed on stolen Palestinian soil.

Most letter writers here take myth for reality. You think you are climbing a tree, but in fact are bending a birch.

Truth is that Judaism and neo-Christianity are a split off arch-Christianity. Neo-Christianity destroyed arch-Christianity with crusades, Zionism—an offshoot of arch-Christian Jews—is about to destroy this civilization by starting a war.

Perhaps i cld clarify ab a human being antihuman by nature and anti an ethnicity.
I don’t think, or hope not, nature or god had endowned us or most of us with capabilites to kill humans just because they are humans.

So, most humans are not anti other humans. They can be only against what other people say-think-do; justifying the opposition most of the time on rationalization and not necessarily on facts of factual knowledge.

However, as i said before, the hellish people [possibly just 1% of the pop]: collumnists, priests, cia-fbi-army echelons, actors, singers, pols, WH, judiciary, ‘educators’ do convince other americans that what they are saying is true.
And it is human to defend self.It cld have happened to me. tnx

Inherit the wind,
People kill or expel people mainly because they want their land, basing the theft and murder on rationalization and not any causative factors for such behavior.
One cannot be an anti-human to the degree that one cld kill members of another set of people and remain sane-peaceful-happy.

Or a denial kicks in. Such as: I cldn’t possibly be this bad; it must be because the other people are pure evil an dtheir land is my land, etc.,and continues on the same rant forever!

God or mother nature had ensured that human race survives.

Over millennia, peoples everywhere have been conditioned just like pavlov’s dog to react to rationalization [lies] by ‘nobility’ and priestly class of life to identify mere rationalization as factual knowledge.

Evocation of great peril by the ruling class seems always to work.
US, not being an exception nor a novelty, had to date always succeeded in convincing vast number of their citizens that there was a great peril coming to US shores from countries they may have not even ever heard of.

But i am still not anti-humaness of these people; i am solely against what they do.
This analyses pertains to all peoples.

However,there are two classes of people: ruling and nonruling class. The ruling class i call hell-on- earth people.

These people [priests-shamans-nobles] have divided people into less- amd more valued. Once that had been done all ills that befell us over the last 10k yrs on interpersonal and int’l levels are due to this one initial iniquity.

‘Jews’ are no exception. They are being misled; used and abused by own leadership.
People who are duped or conditioned like pavlov’s dog are, to me, innocent. Is this a lie, too.
tnx

“It is clear that Ellis has no idea what Nazism was.
Israel is run by a democratically elected secular parliament. It has 1.3 million of Arab citizens. They, like all other citizens, have the right to vote and be elected. They have the right to free association and expression. There are Arab parties and newspapers. There are Arab members of parliament and one of them happens to be a deputy speaker. Arabic is one of the official languages in Israel. One can find the Arab citizens in all ways of life, as professors and students in all Israeli universities, as physicians and patients in all Israeli hospitals. as lawyers and judges, all the way to the Supreme Court, as diplomats, police and army officers. Nazism indeed…”

So why not a one-state solution instead of a purely Zionist solution? That is the future. Israel will disappear pure through demographics. Why not now? There is no peace without justice. Give all Palestinians the same rights that Jews have including the right of return. If South Africa could do it, so could Israel.

Johannes comment, the first paragraph of his of Feb. 21, is a perfect example of James Carroll’s nonfiction “Constantine’s Sword”. Carroll puts the history of the Church in a straight line from Constantine to Auschwitz. He starts the book with the controversy of nuns putting a crucifix in view of Auschwitz concentration camp not long ago. (Carroll was a Catholic priest. He is the famous writer, nonfiction and fiction. Son of a US General= his growing up sitting near dad’s desk at and the book on history of Pentagon.)

Carroll lays out the history of why Europeans have hated the Jews (and obviously, viz Johannes’ comments, “lapses” as ardee points out re this naked/raw one of his). The basis is that Jews would not convert to Christianity. I boil it down.

All the anti-Jew comments, the twisted myths and stereotypes go back to that long history. A close friend is latching on to the new “blame some Muslim from WWII” to get the Church “off the hook” - but Carroll’s analysis proves his point:look at the history of the Church in relation to Jews for about 2 thousand years.

My best friend, Marie S., switched from public school to parochial school in 3rd grade, in our working class Italian Catholic and Jewish neighborhood, as some did in the late 1940s.
She came home from school one day, (we lived opposite each other) and yelled to me, playing outside, in front of my apartment windows, first floor, “Simi, the nuns said today that you killed Christ.”. I yelled in to my mother, who was in the window in the kitchen, facing the street, “Ma, did we kill Christ?”. “No”, she said.

Christianity is angry that Jews refuse Christ as Messiah. All else is embroidery.

It is clear that Ellis has no idea what Nazism was.
Israel is run by a democratically elected secular parliament. It has 1.3 million of Arab citizens. They, like all other citizens, have the right to vote and be elected. They have the right to free association and expression. There are Arab parties and newspapers. There are Arab members of parliament and one of them happens to be a deputy speaker. Arabic is one of the official languages in Israel. One can find the Arab citizens in all ways of life, as professors and students in all Israeli universities, as physicians and patients in all Israeli hospitals. as lawyers and judges, all the way to the Supreme Court, as diplomats, police and army officers. Nazism indeed…

omop, February 21 at 12:23 pm #

Of course Omop’s friend (who happens to be of the faith…) forgot to tell him that the Talmud was written more than 1500 y ago. That it is a collection of discussions on various topics of Jewish law, but not all of the material in every discussion: 1) represents the majority view; 2) applies today. As the translator of the Soncino translation of the Talmud notes:“Not a few of these harsh utterances were the natural result of Jewish persecution by the Romans, and must be understood in that light. In actual practice these dicta were certainly never acted upon”.
But they will be used by haters of the Jewish people as if they represent mainstream Jewish thought or behavior. And that is why they repeatedly appear in many anti-Semitic websites and now in this one.

Johannes:
Next you’ll be saying Jews have horns and signed Satan’s book. I don’t need friends like you.

Balkas: The wholesale genocide of a people, ANY people, Jew, Cambodian, Hutu, Tutsi, Darfurian, Kurd, Native American all prove your contention that one cannot be an “anti-semite” to be a lie. One can EASILY tar a whole people with imagined offenses and then try to wipe them out.

PH: You live in your fantasy land of conspiracies and hatred. You cannot even CONCEIVE of the idiocy of the idea of Jews being behind 9/11 because you are so twisted with hatred you can’t see straight or think straight. To me, you are no different than Sarah Palin. You just have a different flavor of fantasies you put out. Sadly, I think you actually believe your bullshit.

So the descendents of the mass conversions to Judaism that took place thirteen centuries ago in Russia and North Africa have the right to return, while the actual descendents of the ancient Hebrews, the Palestinians, are denied the same right? And the justification for this so-called return (so-called because how can one be returning to a land which neither one’s forebears nor oneself ever lived in?) is nothing but a biblical fairy tale? But never mind such facts because European Christianity owes the Jewish people a save haven somewhere outside Europe, so why not Palestine? Except Palestine wasn’t Europe’s to give away. And never mind that this giveaway/takeaway of Palestine has increased, not decreased anti-Semitism, since, what the heck, just from knowing that there’s a Jewish state, Jews can stand up with pride? Except right now the Jew who does stand up has to watch out for haters, so what good this new found pride? As for the one about Israel being a safe haven for Jews, a state under siege by its neighbors cannot be a safe haven, which is one reason why so few Jews outside Israel are interested in immigrating there, another reason being that these same Jews are, for the most part, very happy, thank you, right where they are. As for ridding the world of anti-Semitism, nothing will do more to bring this about than a just and peaceful settlement of the Mideast conflict. Which means that for the Jew, supporting justice for the Palestinians not only is the right thing to do, it’s in his or her best interest.

One cannot be antisemitic- one can be only against what socalled semites do and say.
In add’n, euro-asians of the cult comprise dozens of ethnicities.

Thus, one caling-deeming self a jew, this can only denote one’s religion;i.e., cult and not one’s humaness.
Nature has ensured that we cannot ever be antihuman.

That doesn’t mean that if a human steals land expels/murders people that we shld not point this out.
I am not afraid being called jew-hater or an anti-semite.
In fact, any human who resorts to any name call has by that alone admitted to one’s guilt.

Euro ‘jews’ by now have no connection to palestine, hebrews, yehudim, zion and do not have a legal or moral right to palestina.

I also think that the s[h]emites of the three cults are being used by world plutos. Proof is found in the fact that ‘zionists’ do not yet have a state for ‘jews’ only nor even an israel.

World plutos need badly unrest and ‘terrorism’ everywhere so that they can manufacture ever ‘better’ weapons in order to obtain the planet or as much of it as they can.

Israel and the Jewish people will continue to exist inspite of enemies from within and without. From before Josephus there have been self hating and self serving Jews. This is the stock from which kapos are found. Recent genetic evidence has disproved Sand’s Khazar premise. The author of this review should have displayed some self respect and refuted this book that is a compilation of historical distortions and lies.

Israel and the Jewish people will continue to exist inspite of enemies from within and without. From before Josephus there have been self hating and self serving Jews. This is the stock from which kapos are found. Recent genetic evidence has disproved Sand’s Khazar premise. The author of this review should have displayed some self respect and refuted this book that is a compilation of historical distortions and lies.

You have a good eye indeed. Ive noted the lapses before but , in the end, this bigot isn’t worth the effort. He has stated his desire to see all Muslims confined to “their own countries” and undoubtedly feels the same way about Jews.

John Ellis the Nazis positioned themselves within the mantle of Christianity not Secular Humanism.

At http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm will show you how close they mingled church and state. That is Lutheran (Protestant), Catholic & the Deutsche Christen group (DC) became the voice of Nazi ideology within the Evangelical Church (the religious right of their day) & approved by Hitler.

The main problem I see with Jews is that they are labeled as if their racial stock and religion are synonymous. That is a fallacy. Just look at the Jews of Ethiopia and Russia. And what of the Palestinians who are Semitic but are Christians or Muslims? These were not looked at in this well written but ultimately wrong article. Anti-Judaism is closer to correctness. Since both Palestinians and Israelis are Semitic then are they anti-Semitic to each other?

And as for the Khazars as Jews and therefor “false” ones is spoken of in this article as if that was correct. [Certain people use this as a reason to say that Israel is “illegitimate” and therefor can be destroyed.]

With the knowledge that Adolf Hitler had one or more Jews in his background, and made sure to eradicate them from his official geneology I would say he would trump Heydrich in Frederic Raphael‘s analogy in the infamy department.

We need to stop using identification as if they are barriers between people and as sign posts to whether they are “superior” or “inferior” to some base line. We are equal under the law and as in situ people regardless of our station or success in life. Once we can reach that point then we can start putting this other garbage behind us. Not before.

You have no idea. You are clueless. You claim to love America but hate everything about it, just like the religious far right fanatics.

**********************

You certainly must have your head up your ass not to recognize the mounting evidence that American and Israeli jews were involved in 9/11, but I know where your loyalties really lie. Ethnicity over truth.
**************************

The only “mounting evidence” is that you will buy ANY bullshit that disses Jews. Only irrational conspiracy crackpots like you and the neo-nazis could even IMAGINE that Jews, both American and Israeli, would risk alienating THEIR MOST CRUCIAL SUPPORTER if such an asinine plot were discovered. Motive? Plan? Evidence? ALL these things exist abundantly for the Arab extremists who executed it. But for Jews and Israelis? Only a truly demented mind could buy into that.

And I don’t need a link to a biased, lying crackpot website!

****************************************
As far as Quisling is concerned, he and his government got what they deserved, much what the perps (jew and non jew) of 9/11 treason deserve in our government. Relatives of mine died in WWII fighting nazis and helping escaping Jews flee Germany. They might of been some of your Yiddish relatives. Fancy that.

*****************************************

What I FANCY is that your relatives are spinning in their graves because some racist descendant of theirs (you) advocate the views of the guy they died fighting!

No, I don’t remember. I think Reiner and Brooks are talentless hacks and rarely if ever watch their work. They run with the likes of Larry David, whom I bet you think is amusing in his anti-gentile work.

To establish a nation based on the biblical myth and legend of a religious text that is insane. The preposterous notion that an invisible being in the sky was actually talking to a group of Iron Age mystics who catered to the superstitions and ignorance of their followers is stupid. If we put events into chronological historical context, omitting all the religious crap, the modern argument for a theocratic state named Israel is blown full of holes because it lacks the historical continuity to justify the genocidal experiment called Israel today. Most of the pro-Zionist justifications are based on legend, myth and a lot of superstition. Religion is a pathology and in the case of the Israeli experiment, a socio-pathological enterprise.

When did Judaism actually become a religion? Biblical mythology contends that Jews are the descendants of Judah. One of of Jacobs 12 sons. The so called Kingdom of Judah was not a nation since the modern concept of nation was unknown at the time 3000 years ago. There was tribalism and city states of which KoJ was a tribe. So how can you apply essentially what was a tribe more than 3000 years ago the status of nation in the modern context? It defies logic and reason.

Judah wasn’t a Jew, he was a Hebrew which was one of the many nomadic groups that wandered those lands. So Judah was the first Jew as much as Christ was the first Christian. The fact is that neither were either. Judah wasn’t a Jew but a Hebrew and Christ wasn’t a Christian but he was a Jew.

And people kill each other based on this biblical line of BS mythology and superstition?

It does seem that if there is antisemitism, there must be also prosemitism.

Now let’s see what an antisemite like me says-does and what a prosemite says-does.

I protest wars and land theft. I’m calling for the right to be informed, to obtain an enlightening education, health care.

A prosemite and nearly all semites hate nearly all shemites, et al. They approbate land theft with intent to murder and expulsion of people from their homes.

So,let us be proud when called antis[h]emitic.
In any cas, one cannot biologicly be antihuman, one can be only against what a human does or says.

Even a cultist like koresh, jones, moshe,jesus, mohammed cannot be antihuman [and live sanely]- they can be only aggainst what we do or don’t do.

But all cultists are by far more unsane than almost all noncultists.
I do not call cultists “insane” because that wld be an insult to people who are brain-damaged or otherwise incapacitated and cannot deal with daily life;unlike unsane people who can,but can do so much evil! tnx

“And a Jew-hating anti-semite like PatrickHenry always returns to the stereotypes of trecherous, disloyal, cowardly, Jews:”

I don’t hate anyone, I leave hate up to people like you who seem to have enough to go around for everyone with your obnoxious prattle. There are some Jews I respect (mainly observant ones) and dog shit posers like you I could scrape off the bottom of my shoe.

Your Yiddish, fine, too bad your loyalties don’t lie with the country of your birth. What does it tell you that many observant jews disregard you being jewish at all? just a pretender.

I notice the first thing non-observant jewish posters such as yourself do (some on this thread) is broadcast that they are a non-observant or agnostic jews. They are perhaps the only ethnicity that does this (besides christian96) and then take the position of determining all things jewish and falsely label those who they “hate”. Yes, jews are great haters and much commentary has been written about that.

You certainly must have your head up your ass not to recognize the mounting evidence that American and Israeli jews were involved in 9/11, but I know where your loyalties really lie. Ethnicity over truth.

As far as Quisling is concerned, he and his government got what they deserved, much what the perps (jew and non jew) of 9/11 treason deserve in our government. Relatives of mine died in WWII fighting nazis and helping escaping Jews flee Germany. They might of been some of your Yiddish relatives. Fancy that.

A few excerpts according to a friend who happens to be of the faith and his
readings of parts of the Talmud

” Hitting a Jew is the same as hitting God”

Sanhedrin 58b. If a heathen (gentile) hits a Jew, the gentile must be killed.

Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a gentile (“Cuthean”) the wages owed him
for work.

Baba Kamma 37b. “If an ox of an Israelite gores an ox of a Canaanite there is
no liability; but if an ox of a Canaanite gores an ox of an Israelite…the payment
is to be in full.”

Baba Mezia 24a . If a Jew finds an object lost by a gentile (“heathen”) it does
not have to be returned. (Affirmed also in Baba Kamma 113b). Sanhedrin 76a.
God will not spare a Jew who “marries his daughter to an old man or takes a
wife for his infant son or returns a lost article to a Cuthean…”

Sanhedrin 57a . When a Jew murders a gentile (“Cuthean”), there will be no
death penalty. What a Jew steals from a gentile he may keep.

Sartre tells of a classmate of his who complained that he had failed the agrégation exam while a Jew, the son of eastern immigrants, had passed. There was – said Sartre’s classmate – no way that that Jew could understand French poetry as well as a true Frenchman. But Sartre’s classmate admitted that he disdained the agrégation and had not studied for it. ‘Thus to explain his failure, he made use of two systems of interpretation… His thoughts moved on two planes without his being in the least bit embarrassed by it.’ (Ibid. p.12.) Sartre’s classmate had adopted in advance a view of Jews and of their role in society. ‘Far from experience producing his idea of the Jew, it was the latter that explained his experience. If the Jew did not exist, the anti-Semite would invent him.’ (Ibid.) Anti-Semitism is a view that arises not from experience or historical fact, but from itself. It lends new perspective to experience and historical fact. The anti-Semite convinces himself of beliefs that he knows to be spurious at best.

“I am a Jew… I am an agnostic…
the CHRISTIAN myth of Jews shouting for Christ’s death at Golgotha…
When the world kills Jews again… they will kill me just for coming from Jews…
Palestinians… have convinced the idiot-progressive Left to join neo-Nazis…
The ONE place on Earth I am welcome is: Israel. The ONLY place I know I am welcome to flee.”

FACTS
(1) Tens of thousands of Jews converted to Christianity during the lifetime of the Hebrew authors of the New Testament.
***********

So THEY (the authors with an agenda) claimed! Is there corroborating evidence? If recruitment was SO great why was St. Paul willing to compromise on circumcision in order to boost recruitment among the Greeks, who refused conversion if they had to have their foreskins removed?

***********(2) All of the authors of the Bible, both the Old and New Testament, were Hebrews. A Hebrew being one of the blood of Abraham, Isaac and Israel.
***********

Again, how do we know this? Because THEY tell us. Nor do we know this about ALL the authors of the NT, because the “books” that make it up were selected long after, in part at the Council of Nicea.

***********(3) All of the authors of the New Testament testified that only because of the Jews threatening to riot did the governor Pilate order the execution of Christ.
***********

Again, self-serving interest of the SELECTED authors, with NO corroborating evidence. There is very little evidence that Yeshua Bar Joseph, who became known by the Greek name of Jesus, actually existed (though there undoubtedly were numerous men with such a common name as Yeshua Bar Joseph).

***********

(4) Over 95% of Jews are Hebrews, having the blood of Abraham and the extremely high intelligence of Abraham who was the most wealthy man on earth in his day.

***********

I am a Jew but I have NO knowledge if I have the Blood of Abraham (whatever that means since we have no DNA remnants of Abraham). I don’t even know if my DNA maps (as it does for many) to the earlier Jews of Palestine at the Diaspora.

Further, the statement that Jews are GENETICALLY smarter than other humans is just as racist as PH’s assertions that we are treacherous traitors. Jews APPEAR smarter because of a 3000 year tradition of scholarship.

In fact, in the schools here in NJ, a similar stereotype is being created about Asian kids, because THEY are consistently at the top of their classes. Why? DNA? No! A tradition of scholarship and a DEMAND that they do well. A girl my son liked was struggling a bit with the sciences. So her parents sent her to summer school SOLELY to ensure she caught up and got a solid grounding.

***********(5) If the Hebrew race were of my slow and careful thinking laboring class, then they would never have been persecuted by Hitler. For then they would all be like me, just poor laborers doing the most undesirable work in Europe. But because of their immense intelligence and wealth, only because of this came the Holocaust.
***********

Yet another disgusting stereotype. The poor shtetl Jews of Fiddler on the Roof were actually THE typical Jew in Europe. Simple people, but still worshipful of scholars.

***********(6) The Jews in Israel again have immense wealth and the highest standard of living on earth, while Palestine, the land they occupy, has about the most enslaved and impoverished people on earth. So if I were a Jew, Israel is the last place on earth I would flee to seeking anything that resembled safety.
************

And where did you get THIS phony statistic? Actually, according to the IMF, Israel is 31st in per capita wealth. 26th according to the World Bank and 36th by the CIA World Factbook. Gaza ranks just above India and the West Bank just below. (India is 134 is the CIAWF).

Ellis “forgot” that he wrote: “But because of their immense intelligence and wealth, only because of this came the Holocaust.”
As I said before that is a typical racist statement. Classical anti-Semitism.
And he should go to the nearest library and he will learn that Babylon conquered Judah in 586 and not in 450 as he claims. And he will learn that the Jews came back in 538 (following the declaration of Cyrus) and rebuilt the temple in 516 BCE.
During the period of the Second Temple the Jewish people in Judea were ruled by several different empires and underwent many religious and political changes. From the beginning of the era until Judea was conquered by Alexander the Great in 332 BCE, the Persian Empire ruled the region, enabling religious freedom. Although Judea, led by the High Priest, still enjoyed a relative religious autonomy until Antiochus IV’s decrees. Subsequent to Alexander’s death, Judea was under various Hellenistic rules: (Egyptian) Ptolemaic and later Seleucid. As a result of the Seleucid king Antiochus IV’s (Epiphanes) decrees against the Jewish religion, a rebellion led by the priestly Hasmonean family erupted in 167 BCE. Judea, led by the Hasmoneans, who also assumed the High Priesthood, gained full independence at around 140 BCE, which lasted until 63 BCE when Judea was conquered by the Roman general, Pompey.
Under Roman rule, Judea remained somewhat independent, as a vassal state, and finally became a Roman province in 4 CE. In 66 CE, the Great Revolt against the Romans broke out, which resulted in the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 CE. Still, the Judeans remained the majority in Palestine at least until their next failed attempt at gaining independence in the Bar Kochbah Revolt (132-135 CE).
Which means that Ellis, in his ignorance struck out more than 700 y of Jewish history.
If there were no Jews there who did the Romans fight in 70 and in 135 CE? Why did the Romans
built the Arch of Titus in Rome and what is depicted on it?

On this site I geth the same cold shivery feeling as wath I have had when I was a young boy, if you was the only not Jew in an company of Jews, they ignored you as if you where cold air, they same feelings is to be found here.

To make my feeling bether understood, I could not play football with two mates of me, In Amsterdam, while the club was only for jews, when my father protested this, and told them that he had saved several Jews in the war, they alloud me in, but than my father forbid me to play in this club,for a principal reasen.

A dog always returns to his vomit.
And a Jew-hating anti-semite like PatrickHenry always returns to the stereotypes of trecherous, disloyal, cowardly, Jews:

I wouldn’t worry ITW, if we were in power I assure you would be safe, however, Israel would cease recieving military and financial AID, The media and especially Hollywood would be subject to anti-trust legislation especially concerning areas of discrimmination in hiring...

It is also good to know where your fleeting loyalties and patriotism lay. Pollard, Nozette, Kadish no doubt thought the same way as alot of the perps of 9/11….

Yes it is paranoid, if every 50 years or so a band of jews commits an act like 9/11 and through other jews in media and banking cover it up with the collusion of governmental non jewish zionists and military opportunists just to blame another religion, country or race just to persue political objectives then I could see your paranoia as justified, but then something like that could never happen now could it.

He has hammered the old stereotypes and now the new one: Despite the fact that EVERY shred of evidence put nothing but Arabs on those planes of 9/11, this anti-semite has picked up on the self-serving lie perpetrated throughout the Arab world that it was Jews who did this, to discredit Arabs.

As if the US was going to stop supporting Israel?
As if George W. Bush and Company weren’t already planning the Patriot Act and war with Iraq?

And so the dog returns to his vomitus.

Oh, and while you are mentioning traitors of MY ethnic group, PH, you may want to think about those of YOUR ethnic group, especially one SO noted for his treason that his name IN LOWER CASE is synonymous with treason: Vidkun Quisling. During WWII, traitors weren’t called “Quisling"s, they were called “quislings”.

BTW, Quisling, like you, took on nazi anti-Semitism.

Meanwhile, an admirer of yours, quotes Ayn Rand in support of your anti-Semitism, not realizing, of course, that Rand (Alice Rosenbaum) was, like me, a Jew of Eastern European descent.

Please bear in mind, folks, that I’m *not* making any case for or against zionism,
for or against anything political, for that matter. I’m merely refuting a major claim
in the book about Jewish heritage. We *are* genetically distinct and we can trace
our roots to pre-diaspora Palestine. Let’s not conflate politics with biology.
Shlomo Sand’s basic premise is *wrong*, regardless of the politics.

This whole premise is bigoted on the face and this is basically a phony attempt to lend an academic and intellectual air to the same old anti-Semitic clap trap that has dogged the Jews for several thousand years. Raphael is simply full of beans.

Speaking as a non-observant Jew one thing I know for sure. You can not even mention the Jews without bringing the neo nazis out from under their rocks. While I don’t like the idea of any nation predicated on an ethnicity, first tell me of one nation where Jews had not been persecuted and abused and they I will tell you how they ended up in Israel!

When one reflects on the fact that Israel is the hybrid child of a Nazi racism mother and an imperialist Anglo-Saxon father one is left with no doubt about why such child is so ugly, immoral and spoiled beyond hope!

“Ah yes, Israel: Where the Jews go to become Nazis.”
=======================
Yes, I do like the truth of the statement above. However, there is another parallel statement to this, which is: America is where fanatic Christians exploit Christianity, and in their hatred for Islam they like to identify with racist Zionism and like to call themselves Christian-Zionists.

I wish Truth Dig would fix their number counter so it won’t pass 4,000 then freeze where I can’t do anything at all an lose all that I spent time on typing. Such a shitty thing and this really pisses me off because the mofo’s at TD didn’t fix it last time. It should stop at zero words and not freeze up or allow you to copy and take letters off. Instead you are dead and can’t save your hard work—-at least fix that crap please!

How can you write things as you do, you are writing and goming to the point if you are not human, and if other humans did not excist, if you read an peace as this you start to understand some very dark points in our human history bether.

Shlomo Sand’s “The Invention of the Jewish People” offers a wise, lucid and profoundly valuable insight not only into the errant nonsense we Jews have burdened ourselves with, but the tragic course down which Israelis seem so determinedly headed. I came across it by chance in a local book store, was unable to put it down, and eagerly recommend it to all who value historical truth, and especially those who fear the ultimate outcome of the on-going conflict between Israel and its neighbors.
However, the choice of Frederic Raphael to review it is unfortunate, as he has precious little to say about Sand’s provocative work that is at all interesting, and his pompous, self-indulgent prolixity is enough to discourage most readers.

Chapeau to PROLE for having the patience to walk us through Raphael’s calculated labyrinth. Sand’s book
apparently puts the lie to the Zionist foundation myth, but this is of little consequence, or even interest to
Raphael.

On this point at least, Raphael would be right. It matters far less if what the Israelis believe about
themselves is actually true than the fact that they believe it to be true and are willing to act upon it. There
ain’t too many foundation myths that can stand up to scrutiny, but they too often suffice to justify some of
the most regrettable tendencies of human nature.

Not that it matters to the rest of us either, since, even if the Zionist version of history were true to the
letter, it would not morally justify Israel’s current course of action. What irks is the implication that even in
their colonial enterprise, the Israelis are somehow better or more justified than any run-of-the-mill
technologically superior, wealthier, more powerful tribe that ever scrummed a border with somebody
more vulnerable than they.

Israelis may believe themselves to be the chosen ones, but word up, it’s not always preferable to be
singled out.

Ellis writes:“If the Hebrew race were of my slow and careful thinking laboring class, then they would never have been persecuted by Hitler. For then they would all be like me, just poor laborers doing the most undesirable work in Europe. But because of their immense intelligence and wealth, only because of this came the Holocaust.”
That is a typical racist statement. Classical anti-Semitism. Bias and ignorance. To blame the Jews for the Holocaust is despicable.
The Jews became a people sometime around 3500 y ago in Canaan. The earliest extra-Biblical source mentioning the name Israel (as a people) is the Mernaptah stele, from around 1200 BCE.
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are mythical figures. There is no evidence that they ever existed. To claim that Abraham was the richest man in the world is nothing but nonsense.
The Kingdom of Israel was conquered by the Assyrians in 722 BCE. The Kingdom of Judah was conquered by Babylon in 586 BCE. The Babylonian exile ended in 538 and the Second Temple was built in 516 BCE.
The name Palestine was used by the Romans to replace the name of Judea,in the second century CE,
following the suppression of the Bar Kokhba revolt. Jews lived there for 1500 y before that.
And being Jewish means to be part of the Jewish people, not only to be part of the Jewish religion.
There are millions of Jews who are not religious and are members of the Jewish people. I happen to be agnostic and a Jew and a Zionist and very proud of it.

To me the striking factor of the book review and most of the responses to it was the common humanity revealed. The Truthdig community engaged in a meaningful discussion of the Jewish experience.
For a decade I participated in morning prayers with Holocaust Survivors who became my friends and mentors. We were open to men and women with intellect of any age. We traded in wisdom not easy to come by or to explain.
My immersion in the ancient stream of Jewish consciousness will remain. Every man can be a Rabbi if he is literate and wise in the ways of the Torah. Our Bible states succinctly, “Don’t worship idols.” The rest is commentary.
Imagine Jews as a resource for mankind. We were common people with the abilities to read and write as witnesses to Cyrus the Great and Alexander.
We are not unique, but we have had a unique set of circumstances.

DNA evidence is grasping at straws. There is more evidence contradicting racial jewishness as there is supporting it.

The genetic trace that Jews proclaim as proof of racial Jewishness can also be found among other groups that are non-Jews. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad may carry the same DNA being claimed as Jewish proving him to be just as much of a Jew as Ben Gurion. Would that entitle Ahmadinejad to Israeli citinzenship to a little piece of Palestine by displacing a Palestinian from his ancestral home? If we are going to determine Jewishness by DNA we’ll have a population of billions of people entitled to live in Jerusalem. So Judaism is a religion, period. Overstepping that interpretation will only bring violence and bloodshed as it already has done.

The whole genetic argument is racist and no more moral and ethical than Nazi racial theories. The Ashkenazi Jews have more in common genetically with eastern Europeans than they do Sephardi Jews in Spain and vice-versa. Any genetic assimilation and wandering is limited at best and is the result of intermarriages between the two groups on religious grounds. There are many people that are white by all appearances but when DNA is analyzed they are found to have black-race or Amerindian traces. Would this make them black or Native Americans? Would that justify them claiming Native American roots and give them rights to open a Casino on an Indian reservation?

The DNA argument in essence is flawed. Any unique rights which are claimed by a group on the basis of race is racist and immoral.

For those who sincerely and un-equivocably claim their religious beliefs
supercede their loyalties to the principles and norms of the nation/society they
spend their lifetimes in. Then they should be encouraged to migrate to the
state/society that represents their beliefs.

‘Once a country accepts censorship of the press and of speech, then nothing
can be won without violence. Therefore, so long as you have free speech,
protect it. This is the life-and-death issue in this country: do not give up the
freedom of the press, of newspapers, books, magazines, radio, movies, and
other forms of presenting ideas.**