i know that excuse is used by xtians a lot but it's utter BS. the universe was created and a day on earth is a day for god since god is here and (this) bible clearly describes the sun going up and down and how that movement is a single day. so they didnt die on the very same day they ate from the tree. any xtians mind giving me their flawed rationalities?

Welcome SOIAM. Before we go any further, I think there's a few things we need to clear up. Some questions:

Are you aware that most of the people here are atheists?

What do you think the word "atheist" means? Do you think it means "denying god", or do you think it means "having no god-beliefs"? Those are very important distinctions!

Are you aware that atheists consider the book of genesis (and the rest of the bible) to be nothing more than an old, fanciful story?

What do you think you can do to prove that there does exist a god being, and that the bible is the true word of this god being? This is a extremely critical one to answer, as many of us will push you to provide evidence for your claims.

For all the talk of us blaspheming and going to hell and being asleep and everything else that's wrong with us because we don't believe your "this-part-is-metaphor-but-this-part-is-real-fact"-- I have yet to have one TrueChristianTM explain to me how it is that if I live a perfectly moral life full of honouring my parents and paying my taxes and loving my neighbour and contributing to charity and trying not to lie unless socially necessary and being faithful in my marriage... if I have lived at LEAST as much, if not MORE than, according to the 10 Commandments and everything Jesus supposedly taught... no matter how good I am, what I do, what I contribute to world, no matter what my behaviour or intents or deeds... I'm going to hell.

Your god is so egomaniacal that he can see ALL of that and STILL condemn me to an eternity of torment because I didn't believe in all the "this-part-is-a-metaphor-but-this-part-is-real" crap that divides the world into factions because everyone is SO sure they're right-- your god is so egomaniacal that even though I have extremely rational and well-thought out reasons for being an athiest, I'm doomed to eternal torment because your god cares more about people worshipping him than he does about anything they ACTUALLY do.

I tell you something, with all your "this-part-is-a-metaphor-but-this-part-is-real," ten thousand denominations and ten million interpretations science-denying flat earthers-- you can keep your god. Your god sucks.

Again:

Your. God. Sucks.

As you can clearly see, I'm not as interested in your opinion as others. But you people with all your moral self-righteousness are just as morally benighted and blighted as the god you worship. You all deserve each other.

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String1248: "We Christian most certainly can use the bible to prove that what the bible says is true because I know that everything that comes from it is true. Christians confirm scripture with other scripture all the time."

As you can clearly see, I'm not as interested in your opinion as others. But you people with all your moral self-righteousness are just as morally benighted and blighted as the god you worship. You all deserve each other.

At least he has not made assumptions about atheists and who they are. He seems much calmer and actually wanted to go ahead and share his input. I still think that the world being "asleep" towards Christianity itself is rather silly to say. There are plenty of Christians out there who thinks they are the best. Far from asleep. More like fully aware.

God said they would die if they ate the fruit, that is exactly what happened, as soon as they ate the fruit God removed His Spirit and His graces and virtues which was their protection against the devil/demons.

Then He kicked them out of the garden and placed a flaming sword to prevent them eating from the tree of life, which was keeping them alive, so because they had already been consuming the fruit from the tree of life Adam lived a total of 930 years I would roughly estimate that after he left the garden and stopped consuming the fruit of the tree of life he lived about 800 years. So although they didn't immediately drop dead in the human body, they were as good as dead since they now had sinned against God (but they had no way to remove that sin) and Lucifer and his demons now had access to them, and they would eventually end up in hell once their human bodies perished, unless God in His mercy decided to save them. Since you cannot be with God if you have even just a small sin. (Lucifer's sin was that he wanted to be better than God. Pride) that was all it took to get kicked out of heaven. (the greatest danger we face is the fact that Lucifer is aware of just how easy it is to lose God, and uses everything you could imagine and more to deceive us.)

1.An awful lot of supposition in there. So god wasn't lying when he said they would die, according to you. He just forgot to tell them that it was going to take a millennium or two to kick in?

2.Lucifer is not Satan, nor does Lucifer have any demons. Nor was Lucifer kicked out of heaven.

At least he has not made assumptions about atheists and who they are. He seems much calmer and actually wanted to go ahead and share his input. I still think that the world being "asleep" towards Christianity itself is rather silly to say. There are plenty of Christians out there who thinks they are the best. Far from asleep. More like fully aware.

*shrug* ...I'm just sick and tired of these people being so sanctimonious and self-righteous and making generalizations about how atheists-- which include me-- are this or that or the other-- they know everything, somehow-- everything about me-- so much about me, in fact, that they feel perfectly comfortable criticizing me on all kinds of personal levels. It's rude, it's insulting, and it's totally without basis. Every once in awhile I lose my temper. They should just be grateful I don't lose it more often in more effective ways.

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String1248: "We Christian most certainly can use the bible to prove that what the bible says is true because I know that everything that comes from it is true. Christians confirm scripture with other scripture all the time."

I wanted to desperately point this out, but I don't think he knows enough to differentiate the two characters... Thanks you for doing so; it was greatly bothersome, and I could not make up my mind as to whether I should tell him or not.

*shrug* ...I'm just sick and tired of these people being so sanctimonious and self-righteous and making generalizations about how atheists-- which include me-- are this or that or the other-- they know everything, somehow-- everything about me-- so much about me, in fact, that they feel perfectly comfortable criticizing me on all kinds of personal levels. It's rude, it's insulting, and it's totally without basis. Every once in awhile I lose my temper. They should just be grateful I don't lose it more often in more effective ways.

I feel you. And yet, they ask: "Why do you seem so angry though? Why are you so irritated?"

It's like asking me: "Why do you have reasonable emotions? I can't understand at all."

It never ends. I'm just glad SOAMI has sparked no fire. In the end, it's all about understanding. I can only hope that the SOAMI makes no assumptions nor judgements about anyone, which includes other believers like him.

SOAMI, after glancing at your response (since it's practically unreadable) and reading some of the replies to it, I can say that you're no different from every christian who tried to answer this question. Let me give you (and anyone else who reads this) the short version of your argument:

You claim the Bible is metaphorical in this specific portion.You claim that you alone hold the truth to its meaningYou claim that your god cannot approach things with sin (to quote your own post: "*notice how God was able to walk with Adam and Eve since they were sinless, God was able to approach and walk among them.")You claim that we're all sinners and yet we can still go to heaven, despite the previous claim.You claim that your god is perfect, yet was unable to prevent such an action and was afraid (as in, scared because he knew he'd lose) that humans would rebel against him (to quote your own post: "God is extremely intelligent so He put the tree of life as an insurance policy(...)")You claim that their death was spiritual.

And here's the best part that makes your post no different from every other christian's who replied to this topic:For all these claims, you have zero, I repeat, zero support from any source, even your own Bible.

When you decide to present evidence (yes, I'll even take the Bible), feel free to get back to me. Otherwise don't bother.

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My names are many, yet I am One.-Orion, son of Fire and Light, Sol Invictus.

And yet, they ask: "Why do you seem so angry though? Why are you so irritated?"

It's like asking me: "Why do you have reasonable emotions? I can't understand at all."

Calling us angry is the ultimate red herring. And they say it with such smugness, as if calling us angry somehow automatically destroys our case by giving them the right to deny us their proper attention.

It's amazing how devastating a blow they think they're dealing when they make comments about angry atheists.

Sheldon: Ever since you started having regular intercourse your mind has lost its edge. You should reflect on that.Leonard: Well, Einstein had a busy sex life.Sheldon: Yes, but he never unified gravity with the other forces. If he hadn't been such a hounddog we'd all have time machines.

Hi, SOIAM, welcome to WWGHA. I see that the rest of the board has already addressed most of the items in your post, leaving little for me to handle, but let me see whether there's anything that anyone might have overlooked...

I honestly can't help but wonder, just as Greta Christina does: Why are you still Catholic? If any other organization were to behave the way the Church does, you would flee in horror and exhort everyone on the planet to flee as well, and you'd be frantically begging the police to put them all behind bars -- but you stay with the Church, support it, and openly admit to belonging to it -- an organization that includes child rapists in its leadership and actively protects them?!

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The snake was Lucifer, God never ever lies

Wrong and wrong, as has been shown...

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as soon as they ate the fruit God removed His Spirit and His graces and virtues which was their protection against the devil/demons.

"And here is the scripture that says so:"

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they had already been consuming the fruit from the tree of life

"And here is the scripture that says so:"

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So although they didn't immediately drop dead in the human body, they were as good as dead since they now had sinned against God (but they had no way to remove that sin) and Lucifer and his demons now had access to them

I'm a little unclear on something, here. If Lucifer was the snake, and Lucifer did not have "access" to Adam and Eve before they sinned by eating the fruit, how did Lucifer convince them to eat the fruit? It would seem that to convince someone of something, you have to have access to them.

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and they would eventually end up in hell once their human bodies perished

"And here is the scripture that says so:"

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unless God in His mercy decided to save them.

Which he didn't. Interesting, yes? (Well, no. Appalling.)

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Since you cannot be with God if you have even just a small sin. (Lucifer's sin was that he wanted to be better than God. Pride) that was all it took to get kicked out of heaven.

"And here is the scripture that says so:"

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(the greatest danger we face is the fact that Lucifer is aware of just how easy it is to lose God, and uses everything you could imagine and more to deceive us.)

"And here is the scripture that says so:"

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I will also give you an interpretation and how it still applies to us today.

Fair warning, in case you haven't gotten the point yet: "interpretations" don't fly very far with skeptics. We take scripture at face value. Or at least, closer to face value than most apologists do. Most of what you said in your next paragraph, as with what you said above, is not supported by scripture. For example:

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The 2 trees (tree of life and tree of knowledge) are equivalent today to good and evil, they represent God and Lucifer

This is, as you say, your interpretation, which is fine and good for you, but the bible doesn't say this. It doesn't even remotely imply it. You're just making it up, so don't expect skeptics to accept it.

Similarly:

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Today we have the 10 commandments and every time somebody breaks a commandment/ sins it is equivalent to us being in the garden of Eden and taking a bite out of the fruit of the tree of knowledge as Eve did.

Your own interpretation; fine for you; won't fly with us due to utter lack of scriptural support. I could continue doing the same with much of the other stuff you've said here, but I trust I've made my point after some eight or ten iterations.

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Here are some of the relevant verses from the Douay-Rheims Bible.

Which brings me to my next fair warning: most of the regulars here at WWGHA have read the bible more than once and in more than one translation. Even those few of us who haven't (such as myself) have read the first few chapters of Genesis. I've read only about one-third or so of the bible, but I've read the first three chapters of Genesis more times than I can count.

That being the case, I urge you to be careful when quoting scripture here (if you decide to stay here, as I hope you do). Personally, I try to be one of the "friendly" voices, but others here have less patience. If you quote scripture, particularly if it's scripture that most of us can recite in our sleep -- such as the first few chapters of Genesis -- you are going to encounter some, er, "negative reactions", to use a polite euphemism.

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God is extremely intelligent

He sure is. We can see that just by what a wonderful job he did in designing the human body.

1. An appendix that is literally worse than useless.2. Openings to the trachea and esophagus right next to each other, so we can conveniently choke on our own food.3. Wisdom teeth, which cause all kinds of medical problems, not the least of them being abscesses and infections that can go all the way into the brain.4. Spine that would be just great for quadrupeds, but causes all kinds of problems for bipeds.5. Hip joints, ditto on the four-leg/two-leg thing; hip problems are quite common in humans, but rare in, say, dogs or cats (and even then, it's usually due to selective breeding, as with the labrador retriever).6. Knees, ditto again.7. Female pelvis too narrow for childbirth; potential cause of damage to baby during birthing process.8. Wrists far too fragile and easily broken, carpal tunnels are also a lot of fun. (A ball-and-socket joint, for example, as in the hip, would probably work quite a bit better here).9. Sinuses, which do nothing except get inflamed for various reasons and interfere with our breathing.

Yep. Absolutely brilliant. Yahweh should join Mensa.

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so He put the tree of life as an insurance policy, If humans ever decided to go against God He could just kick them out of the garden preventing them from eating the fruit of life and eventually dying

Why would Yahweh need an "insurance policy"? He's omniscient, so he knew that Adam and Eve were going to "turn against him".

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and He would not have to kill them Himself that way, they would just kill themselves/self destruct

"I think I'll leave a loaded gun in my three-year-old's room and forbid him to point it at himself and pull the trigger. That way, I won't have to kill him myself, he'll just kill himself for me. And if he obeys me and doesn't shoot himself, why, hey, that's great! That really is what I want him to do, you know."

Can you seriously not see how despicable that is?

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thanks to their free will and Lucifer's manipulation and lies. God would then only take the righteous souls who were awake and who had their name written in the book of life or had not had their name blotted out due to their sins and failure to seek forgiveness. But since the souls can't be killed they need to go somewhere, when heaven is out of the question they end up taken by Lucifer with him to hell for all eternity since they had chosen to worship him above Almighty God Creator of heaven and earth while they breathed their few short breaths on earth.

Important to note: this entire passage can be true only if Yahweh is not omnipotent. Are you willing to make that concession?

« Last Edit: June 12, 2011, 08:03:08 AM by pianodwarf »

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[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]: Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Catholics don't accept Genesis as literal but accept that the story says it was a snake - no mention of "Lucifer" "Satan" or "The Devil" - in fact the Hebrew, clearly says it is a snake as does Genesis:

Ge:3:1: Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Sometimes a snake is just a snake.

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Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

SOAMI, I see that you are new here. You have posted a reply in a thread that has not received any replies in over a year. This is called "thread necromancy" and is generally frowned on. The general rule of thumb is that if a thread hasn't received any responses within about the past three months or so, you should start a new thread.

Also, if you have not already done so, please read the forum rules. Thank you.

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[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]: Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

I'm a little unclear on something, here. If Lucifer was the snake, and Lucifer did not have "access" to Adam and Eve before they sinned by eating the fruit, how did Lucifer convince them to eat the fruit? It would seem that to convince someone of something, you have to have access to them.

Actually, this raises a better question that just came into my mind. Let's assume that SOIAM is actually right about all of this for a moment. Let's say that Lucifer and Satan are actually the same thing and that they did all of that stuff. If, by his reasoning, god cannot even be in the presence of anything remotely sinful; why do we see the two of them sharing the same space throughout the bible? For that matter why does god appear in person to other humans throughout the bible, even if they are not described as being pure and sinless. Ezekiel even got such a close-up view of god that he was able to see his almighty genitals and wrote about how awesome they were (something for you ladies to ponder).

God walks the earth often enough in the bible to make SOIAM's point of view on this subject easily demonstrable as being pulled out of his ass. God even stands face to face with Satan who (in SOIAM's limited worldview) is essentially the very embodiment of all sin.

Aside from the fact that not being able to be around sin would remove any possibility of his being omnipotent, it seems that he's only repelled by sin when it would make for a convenient excuse.

To voice another thought that had just occurred to me. This would also make Satan his superior in many ways. Since god would have to flee from Satan's mere presence, whereas the bible shows quite clearly that Satan has no such limitation regarding god. Or the presence of holy/sinless things in general.

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"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.Spartan Reply: If.

I just wanted to quickly address the comments about being angry-- I know it's not helpful for me to lose my temper, and that they don't understand what it is that I'm reacting to.

It's like having a Nazi show up and start going on about how "morally ignorant" we are because we don't see that the Jews are evil-- like having a Nazi tell us we're "intolerant" and we're "arrogant" for not doing god's will by murdering the Jews. If you (the hypothetical theist I'm talking to) can imagine how that would make you feel-- having a Nazi tell you were the evil one, the ignorant one, the intolerant one-- wouldn't you be just a little bit pissed?

When theists start posting here, they use words like that-- ignorant, immoral, arrogant, intolerant-- and they don't seem to think that should make us angry because they think it's "true"-- the same way a Nazi thinks it's true that Jews are subhuman and should be exterminated-- they not only think that's true, they also think that's god's will. How would you react to a Nazi, who advocated ethnic extermination, telling you that you were immoral for not doing it and arrogant to disagree with it? Because that's basically how it makes me feel when people who believe in the Judeo-Christian god start telling me I'm immoral and arrogant because I don't believe in their god.

I don't know if that parallel will help or not but I figured I at least owed it to my fellow atheists to do something a little more constructive with my statements. Maybe comparing theists to Nazis isn't the most constructive but comparing Nazism to the Judeo-Christian god is wholly justified, in my opinion.

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String1248: "We Christian most certainly can use the bible to prove that what the bible says is true because I know that everything that comes from it is true. Christians confirm scripture with other scripture all the time."

Hi everybody, thanks for the interesting replies, I will try to answer them all as I get time. Sorry if I posted in the wrong place, :angel:I probably should not post this here but I am just trying to get my 3 posts up and this one is number 2. If it's in the wrong place maybe I can start my own post in the future and an admin can move it there. I was going to post an introduction but then I noticed you had the 3 post rule and I just happened to pick this post, so I could get my 3 posts up.

Let me start by saying that I come in peace and don't have anything against atheists or anybody, we are all humans living on the same planet, and I am deeply concerned for all humans alike.

I should just mention something about myself and how I came to post here, I know that you might find it difficult to believe but I will tell you anyway as it is the truth, and you will need to know that. I don't come here to judge anybody or to accuse or to say that I am better than anyone here, on the contrary, I am here because I care about my brothers and sisters, such as yourselves.

I should start by explaining a bit about myself and what has happened to me or to my life. I am just an average guy, like to mind my own business and keep out of trouble, very, very rarely post or even go to forums. Although I was raised as a Catholic, once I left home I never went to mass or church or anything like that, so I was not a Bible basher AT ALL in case anyone is thinking that (trust me quite the opposite). By accident I started researching things on the web and I guess you can call me a conspiracy junkie, as the government now labels anybody that discovers any of their deceit. I prefer to use the word truth seeker, my countless hours turned into months then years and I have been researching almost full time for the last 8 years or more.

While researching these things I started to search for answers to who controls what, NWO, secret societies etc and discovered that many of these people are worshipping demons etc, that's how I ended up looking at the Bible by accident and other things in my research also led me there.

Anyhow to cut a long story short, I have personally always thought that there was 1 God the God of the Bible. The Trinity. I must admit I am no saint, I have probably broken most of the commandments over and over countless times, without even giving the sins a thought. I would say the occasional prayer when I needed something or I was in some sort of trouble (which I have had my fair share of). Well this one day I was outside at night watching the stars and I said a quick prayer and I asked a question, regarding something I had read or seen, when I came inside I went to my pc on and went to you tube to watch a video and I was amazed that the first video that appeared to me was labeled something like a message from God to you, I watched it and it answered my question.

I was really amazed as it seemed like it was not an accident. So I thought it was a weird coincidence and just moved on, then (many months later), one day I was just sitting on my pc doing my research etc. and all of a sudden God the Father just started to talk to me, I did not know what was happening initially as it caught me completely unprepared and it was unexpected (never even thought that it was possible). He revealed Himself to me for some reason which I do not know. My whole body changed it was a really weird sensation, I could just feel LOVE that was the sensation, that's the best I can describe it, we had a conversation just like when 2 people are talking.

He pointed some things out that I was doing wrong and counseled me on how to address these issues. He explained numerous things to me and I had to make numerous changes in my life as a result. I lost track of time but He spoke to me for hours not minutes. It was telepathic, I could just clearly hear and feel Him and when I thought of something He just responded immediately.

Depending on what He was telling me or what the subject was the strong sensation I felt would change accordingly, for example most of the time I could feel His LOVE and I also felt His Power and anger. I also completely lost my appetite after this episode and hardly ate at all for about 3 days.

By now you must all be thinking this guy is mad as a hatter.. Well now it gets even better, you will see. Because of what happened it surely changed my life and now I just want to learn more and am trying to establish some sort of a communication system since I now know it is possible to communicate with Him personally. I don't get to control how or when or why God chooses to speak to me. I am always trying to speak again as I now have so many questions but it seems He has done something to me because He said He would help me and He told me many other things, I feel as if, from what I am discovering I am being guided by the Holy Spirit, my whole body is different now and the way I do things and think has all changed, all for the better, not for the worse. I am trying to encourage the relationship as much as I can.

Since then I have been given what I seem to recognize as some sort of understanding/wisdom, amongst other things, I now understand that they are actually graces from God. (that is partly why I know God reduced His graces on Adam and Eve) I am not trying to blow my own trumpet here as I have nothing to gain, I am merely trying to explain how I arrived here. I started gaining this understanding and God started to send me people, really strange, like I would get an answer to a question and then somebody would either call me on the phone or come and visit me and they would ask me that particular question I had been given the answer to. So it appears that I am being used you could say as some sort of a warning device or what the Bible might refer to as a prophet of some sort you could say.?? I am not sure what is going on, I am just telling you what has and is happening to me. Don't know what He has in stall for me in the future if He has anything at all.

So I now have been given this what I would call special ability and am being guided so to speak by God the Father through the Holy Spirit, to speak to people instructing them on how to obtain salvation, as God has told me that He is going to save me. Now it appears that He is teaching me how to be saved, and the good news is that I am allowed to share it with others if they wish to listen to what He has taught me so far. (up until now I have usually only been telling my family and friends)

I was just surfing the net one day as usual probably last week, and a vid popped up that was from this website, asking 10 questions including the one about the amputees and why God won't heal them. I was drawn to your website and I think God wants to answer your questions through me.

I can understand that you are probably spinning out reading all this but it is the truth, I actually had a look at your forum and hesitated as I thought you might not be interested in what He would say through me but He showed me that there is at least 1 person or maybe more amongst you all that He wants to communicate with, so most of the people from this forum might not be interested in, nor understand what I have to say as the message in reality might not be intended for everyone. I am sure that the right person/people will understand when they see whatever it is God wants them to know, I don't know what that is and may never find out, it will probably be in something I say. He seems to be gathering His sheep and I am now helping Him, why now? I don't know I think earth is moving in a dangerous direction right now and anything could happen, I am not saying it will. I myself am not taking any chances as from my understanding it is just not worth taking the risk under any circumstances. Everyone reading this will eventually understand what I am talking about that I can assure you, the blindfold will be removed in due time. That just about sums up how I got here so I think my mission is really just to answer your 10 questions, and He also gave me a list of questions to ask anyone who wants to try to answer them, but I am not sure if I will post them yet.

I noticed many questions regarding what I said on this post, so I will try to say only things from the Bible that way you can see that it is the word of God and not my own imagination. It is only fair that God answer with His Bible as He knows it very well I can assure you. I myself have probably read less of the Bible than most people on this forum by the looks of it. So God gives me the material it does not come from me and I will also mention that this could be an excellent opportunity for all you unbelievers as I will let you all ask as many questions as you like and if God wishes He might be able to answer you through me.

I can't guarantee that He will but it won't hurt to try, I am just putting it out there (I am talking about relevant questions not the lotto numbers etc), if on the other hand you think I am just somebody with a vivid imagination or whatever, that is ok as well, I can understand as what I am saying is extremely hard for many to believe, I can't deny it because I know it is true, I will if permitted, deal with the questions and then I can be on my way, or I don't mind stopping by from time to time if welcome or if you want to ask anything, and I don't know if this ability will last or not, it could well just disappear the same as it came. You can then delete everything if you don't like what I say, it would only be fair to let me try to answer the questions since you have put them out there.

To tell you all the truth I can't even remember what the questions are and I haven't yet found them on this forum, I think I saw them on the promotional video, but I am being compelled to answer them, that I am sure of, it should be good news for you all as you all seem to be seeking some answers. We all are I think, even I am.

I just hope this explains things as I said I am not here to judge, attack or anything like that you can consider me a friend but I am already finding this forum interesting to tell you the truth, hopefully we can learn from each other or just discuss our understanding of things.thanks and nice to meet you all.

P.S. I should also mention that God is not in any way simple, He is the opposite, extremely complicated, yet easy to understand, I am finding, so don't expect quick answers to some questions as I find He usually likes to thoroughly explain things, once. If anything I say needs further clarification I will do my best to furnish you with more details and thanks in advance for your patience and for allowing me to post here.May God Bless

I'm sorry SOAMI, but you lost credibility for this... "experience". I'm sure you just want to discuss, but there are many people that claim that they speak for their god, and either way, whether they actually genuinely want to share ideas, or want to convert others, it doesn't end up working out.

I hope you read our posts for what they are. We have no feelings for your god, nor anyone else's. It's all just, all-in-all, mythology. We take the Scripture, or any other religious book/doctrine, at face value. I'm glad to clarify whatever is being said, but personal interpretation is way too plenty in this world. And it's not "enlightening", nor does it provide evidence for your god's existence. It is not possible to be "simple yet complex" [and vice versa]. You must understand that does not exist. It's an oxymoron, and it makes no sense.

Take it easy, one step at a time, and do not be hurried in making a response. As long as it comes solely from you and not some article/video, I'm game for discussion. All we're looking for is direct answers. The answer can't be cryptic. It shouldn't have to be long.

Hi, SOIAM, thank you for your introduction. A few suggestions, if I may:

First, please try to break up your writing into not-too-long paragraphs, with a double-space between each one (like this post). Posts written in the same way as the last two you've made are quite difficult to read. Thank you.

Second, while I understand that you feel you are "spreading his word" or however you want to put it, please do keep in mind that this is a discussion site, and if you say (for example) that the two trees represent Yahweh and Lucifer, you will be expected to make an effort to back up the claim if and when you are challenged on it. If you simply make the assertion and don't defend it, that is called "preaching" and won't be warmly welcomed -- again, if you haven't read the forum rules yet, I urge you to do so.

Third, and perhaps most importantly: please keep in mind that most of the people here are quite expert in their knowledge and understanding of religion, philosophy, science, and scripture. For example -- and I'm just being hypothetical, here, I'm not saying that you've done this or that you've shown any intention of doing so, because that's not so -- if you say, "You should believe in Yahweh because if you're wrong, you lose nothing, but if you're right, you gain everything", you should be ready to be told what Pascal's Wager is and have its flaws explained to you. (We get that one about two or three times a month.)

I'm glad you're here. You haven't said that you're praying for our deaths, and you're not telling us that we're doomed to burn in hell forever while being raped by demons (and laughing with glee at the prospect), which already puts you ahead of most of the Christians who come here. I wish I could say I was joking, but I'm not.

Again, welcome to WWGHA.

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[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]: Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

SOIAM, could you please break up your writings with paragraphs. It's VERY difficult reading your posts when they're long wall of texts.

Also, could you respond to post 30?

I'll repeat:

Are you aware that most of the people here are atheists?

What do you think the word "atheist" means? Do you think it means "denying god", or do you think it means "having no god-beliefs"? Those are very important distinctions!

Are you aware that atheists consider the book of genesis (and the rest of the bible) to be nothing more than an old, fanciful story?

What do you think you can do to prove that there does exist a god being, and that the bible is the true word of this god being? This is a extremely critical one to answer, as many of us will push you to provide evidence for your claims.

If it is easy to understand then why shouldn't one expect quick answers?

SOIAM, aside from the obvious admonishment of "don't write walls of text". It would also be to your benefit to what you are actually talking about before you start talking about it. Your constant confusion between Lucifer, Satan, and the Snake being a prime example of this.

Also it is also expected that you at least attempt to respond to the points that are made. This is a discussion forum. Simply stating things without anything to back them up or without acknowledging previously made points and responses is "preaching" and is against the rules of the forum.

« Last Edit: June 13, 2011, 01:56:26 AM by Alzael »

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"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.Spartan Reply: If.

Has any of the theists who came here ever provided evidence for their claims? I think it was ParkingPlaces who ones said that if a single evidence would be presented he'd reconsider his position (free"translation" as I really don't find that post anymore).

Is that not the basic problem. There is no evidence for the existence of any deity. So asking to provide exactly that is sort of obsolete if taken litterally. If any theist shows up here with valid scientific evidence of the existence of god we can close the forum.

I presume the intention is not so much getting our hands on evidence. Every theist who starts questioning his belief by learning the scientific way, maybe see what damage his and other religions ultimately do and turns away from it/them, is a success. To me it is all about opening their eyes.

Has any of the theists who came here ever provided evidence for their claims? I think it was ParkingPlaces who ones said that if a single evidence would be presented he'd reconsider his position (free"translation" as I really don't find that post anymore).

Is that not the basic problem. There is no evidence for the existence of any deity.

No, that is not the problem, because:

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I presume the intention is not so much getting our hands on evidence. Every theist who starts questioning his belief by learning the scientific way, maybe see what damage his and other religions ultimately do and turns away from it/them, is a success. To me it is all about opening their eyes.

This is exactly correct.

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[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]: Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Unfortunately most of the population today is asleep and although they think they are awake are heading for a major disaster that will be hell.

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...taken by Lucifer with him to hell for all eternity since they had chosen to worship him aboive Almighty God"

1. So most of the world's population is going to hell because god can't -- or rather, chooses not to[1]-- produce clear evidence that he exists.

2. Hell consists of eternity for events in a mortal lifespan-- even convicted criminals get parole.

3. It does not matter if we do not even BELIEVE in Lucifer-- if we don't worship god it automatically means we worship Lucifer.

And yet this god loves us, and has "chosen" you to "save" us-- save us, that is, from conditions he created that involve us somehow figuring out which is the "right" god as explained to us by people who think they're telepathic prophets-- and then wonder why we don't believe what we hear.

If god is real and this is how he works, he is a monster.

If you are here to answer questions, answer me this: why does it not matter how I actually live my life, what morals I adhere to, what good deeds I do-- why does god not care about any of this, but only about whether I worship him? And, how is it fair that we are given, at most, 100 years of mortal existence but punished for an eternity? Why does god have less compassion that we do, if we're the sinners? If he's really justified in sending me to hell for all of eternity for not believing in him, why doesn't he try a little harder to prove to us-- all of us thinking, caring people who use our brains in a rational, intelligent fashion, just the way we were made to do-- why wouldn't he make it clear that he DOES exist? Why does he play these games? It might be fine for HIM to play games, but WE'RE the ones who go to hell for it. Do you really think we're all so bad because we think so hard? Do YOU think we here all deserve to go to hell? If YOU were god, would YOU send us all to hell?[2]

Now you tell me how any of that is FAIR. And if god isn't fair, just what the hell is it you are worshipping? In real life we would call him a tyrant or a dictator, except he's worse, because even tyrants and dictators can only make people's live miserable for the duration of the moral existence. God is worse that Hitler. Hitler only killed 6 million people. God is going to send the "majority" of 7 BILLION people to hell for eternity because they didn't all get it quite "right."

edited to add that god really does have a choice about whether or not he wants to give us unambiguous, non-mysterious evidence, and the fact that he chooses not to, even when it means hell for eternity for us, is monstrous.

String1248: "We Christian most certainly can use the bible to prove that what the bible says is true because I know that everything that comes from it is true. Christians confirm scripture with other scripture all the time."

Let me start by saying that I come in peace and don't have anything against atheists or anybody, we are all humans living on the same planet, and I am deeply concerned for all humans alike.

but you have no problem in making believe that anyone who disagrees with your god is damned to eternal torture. And yes, no I don't believe for a second that you aren't judging anyone. Your religion is nonsense.

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discovered that many of these people are worshipping demons etc, that's how I ended up looking at the Bible by accident and other things in my research also led me there.

ooooh, demons. So show evidence of these 'demons', or you are just telling more worthless stories.

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He revealed Himself to me for some reason which I do not know. My whole body changed it was a really weird sensation, I could just feel LOVE that was the sensation, that's the best I can describe it, we had a conversation just like when 2 people are talking, He pointed some things out that I was doing wrong and counseled me on how to address these issues. He explained numerous things to me and I had to make numerous changes in my life as a result. I lost track of time but He spoke to me for hours not minutes. It was telepathic, I could just clearly hear and feel Him and when I thought of something He just responded immediately. Depending on what He was telling me or what the subject was the strong sensation I felt would change accordingly, for example most of the time I could feel His LOVE and I also felt His Power and anger. I also completely lost my appetite after this episode and hardly ate at all for about 3 days. By now you must all be thinking this guy is mad as a hatter..

No, I know you are as mad as a hatter. People claim this nonsense constantly, from many different religions. It's just one more attempt to claims just how "special" you are. Funny how your god just whimsically picks and chooses only the crazies to speak to, and how none of you can agree what your God 'really' meant. You supposed have special power. What happens when this special power fails? What excuses do you make for the people who don't believe your nonsense. And indeed, if you are chosen of God, where is the healing? JC said you could, now why can't any Christians actually do that?

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I just hope this explains things as I said I am not here to judge, attack or anything like that you can consider me a friend but I am already finding this forum interesting to tell you the truth, hopefully we can learn from each other or just discuss our understanding of things.thanks and nice to meet you all.

So you are here to tell us the "truth". Quite a bunch of arrogance there

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P.S. I should also mention that God is not in any way simple, He is the opposite, extremely complicated, yet easy to understand, I am finding, so don't expect quick answers to some questions as I find He usually likes to thoroughly explain things, once. If anything I say needs further clarification I will do my best to furnish you with more details and thanks in advance for your patience and for allowing me to post here.May God Bless

So you want God to bless us. What do you mean by that? To make us change our minds so your magical superpowers work? I'm pretty much sure that your special messages from God will be the same old tired apologetics and will fail awesomely. How does an omnipotent God fail, SOIAM?

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"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB