Yes. Getting used to things is how change works. Just like Jackie Robinson playing baseball didn't turn white people black, or result in the end of the world, so too will finding out that specific NFL players are homosexual won't cause straight people to turn gay, or end the world.

Yes it is how it works. But letting it happen IMO is the way to do it. Not have a coming out party, if anyone thinks that is going to change anyone's mind who currently is not very accepting of homosexuality, they're not being realistic.

Did Jackie Robinson have a press conference and say I am going to be the first black baseball player in MLB and this is how it's going to be, deal with it?

04-05-2013, 11:18 AM

Ravenboy2003

Re: 4 Gay Players Might Come Out

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flipping Birdie

This belongs in the non-Ravens football forum. Not the politics forum.

It belongs in the garbage can...

04-05-2013, 11:21 AM

Kyle Cactus

Re: 4 Gay Players Might Come Out

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCRAVEN

Did Jackie Robinson have a press conference and say I am going to be the first black baseball player in MLB and this is how it's going to be, deal with it?

It's a little different because you can't discretely be black. When a black player stepped onto the field at an MLB stadium it was pretty apparent that there was a black player playing in MLB. When a gay player steps out into the NFL field people can't see that.

And while there may be a certain number of people who are truly committed to their prejudices, there are also people who are just careless and have never taken much time to think about their prejudices. These people can and likely will change if a number of players come out gay in a highly publicized way and get a sufficient amount of support from the media, fans, and other players. But it often takes a sufficient amount of buzz or a striking enough event to wake someone like this up.

04-05-2013, 11:48 AM

HoustonRaven

Quote:

Originally Posted by NC Raven

Yes. Getting used to things is how change works. Just like Jackie Robinson playing baseball didn't turn white people black, or result in the end of the world, so too will finding out that specific NFL players are homosexual won't cause straight people to turn gay, or end the world.

Likewise, the world didn't end when Jews started going to Harvard, or when Catholics and Protestants were allowed to intermarry. But it took people being out there in front of it, publicly and openly, for attitudes to begin changing. People didn't all just shrug their shoulders at once and say 'OK."

It shouldn't matter, but it does, because people who hate homosexuals make it matter. They make it matter by physically assaulting, threatening and generally treating them horribly. Homosexuals have been forced into hiding for centuries, and in many societies today. If it weren't for all of THAT, then no they wouldn't need to publicly "come out."

The fact that people feel like this is being "shoved in their faces" shows that those people prefer to keep it like it was -- they want their gays in the closet. The gays, however, are tired of staying there, and I don't blame them. If I had to hide my wife everywhere I went and not tell anyone I was married or go to a restaurant with her without worrying whether some skinhead asshole was going to break a bottle over my head, I'd get pretty fucking tired of it too. And at some point, I think people of like persuasion would be sorely tempted to get together and say you know what, screw this, we're not living like this anymore.

Pretty much what happens when socieities systematically marginalize groups of people, or worse. Is it any wonder that Israel, for example, defends itself so aggressively? When you put up with as much shit as they have, you kind of stop caring what other people think, and do what you need to do, to be who you are and not have to take other people's shit about it.

Agreed 100%

04-05-2013, 12:04 PM

JAB1985

Re: 4 Gay Players Might Come Out

Quote:

Originally Posted by NC Raven

Yes. Getting used to things is how change works. Just like Jackie Robinson playing baseball didn't turn white people black, or result in the end of the world, so too will finding out that specific NFL players are homosexual won't cause straight people to turn gay, or end the world.

Likewise, the world didn't end when Jews started going to Harvard, or when Catholics and Protestants were allowed to intermarry. But it took people being out there in front of it, publicly and openly, for attitudes to begin changing. People didn't all just shrug their shoulders at once and say 'OK."

It shouldn't matter, but it does, because people who hate homosexuals make it matter. They make it matter by physically assaulting, threatening and generally treating them horribly. Homosexuals have been forced into hiding for centuries, and in many societies today. If it weren't for all of THAT, then no they wouldn't need to publicly "come out."

The fact that people feel like this is being "shoved in their faces" shows that those people prefer to keep it like it was -- they want their gays in the closet. The gays, however, are tired of staying there, and I don't blame them. If I had to hide my wife everywhere I went and not tell anyone I was married or go to a restaurant with her without worrying whether some skinhead asshole was going to break a bottle over my head, I'd get pretty fucking tired of it too. And at some point, I think people of like persuasion would be sorely tempted to get together and say you know what, screw this, we're not living like this anymore.

Pretty much what happens when socieities systematically marginalize groups of people, or worse. Is it any wonder that Israel, for example, defends itself so aggressively? When you put up with as much shit as they have, you kind of stop caring what other people think, and do what you need to do, to be who you are and not have to take other people's shit about it.

pretty much what i was trying to say, but you summed it up much better.

04-05-2013, 12:36 PM

NCRAVEN

Re: 4 Gay Players Might Come Out

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyle Cactus

And while there may be a certain number of people who are truly committed to their prejudices, there are also people who are just careless and have never taken much time to think about their prejudices. These people can and likely will change if a number of players come out gay in a highly publicized way and get a sufficient amount of support from the media, fans, and other players. But it often takes a sufficient amount of buzz or a striking enough event to wake someone like this up.

This is kind of what I am saying. People who have this prejudice aren't going to change their mind. People who aren't prejudice don't need their mind changed.

That's not really what I said. I basically categorized two types of prejudiced individuals:

- people who are committed to their prejudices
- people who are prejudice only because they haven't taken the time to examine the value of such prejudice and are just doing what they are used to seeing others do.

People in the second group can change their minds, and when presented with enough evidence or sufficiently striking evidence that the world around them is changing, they will likely change as well. NFL players coming out and the resultant media attention is likely to hasten this process.

04-05-2013, 01:01 PM

iggyman555

Re: 4 Gay Players Might Come Out

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirt1

Isn't it a safe bet at this point that Ayanbadejo is gay? Not that there is anything wrong with that...

u think his marriage is fake? i know a guy whos been together with a girl for 5 years even proposed and then one day came out

04-05-2013, 01:17 PM

NCRAVEN

Re: 4 Gay Players Might Come Out

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyle Cactus

That's not really what I said. I basically categorized two types of prejudiced individuals:

- people who are committed to their prejudices
- people who are prejudice only because they haven't taken the time to examine the value of such prejudice and are just doing what they are used to seeing others do.

People in the second group can change their minds, and when presented with enough evidence or sufficiently striking evidence that the world around them is changing, they will likely change as well. NFL players coming out and the resultant media attention is likely to hasten this process.

That assume quite a lot. First that there are only 2 types of people or 3 mayb4 4.

Group 1: Prejudice no matter what, can't have their mind changed
Group 2: Prejudice can have their mind changed, but how do you reach them
Group 3: Not prejudice don't need to reach them
Group 4: Doesn't care either way.

Group 2 can and may change their mind. But saying a "coming out party" is they way to do it, assumes that everyone in the second group will react the same to an event like this. My opinion is that the you would get just as many people in the second group and likely more, who will have a negative reaction to it.

You can't force societal changes on people they happen overtime. If you take the reigns on a horse and lead him to water you're much more likely to get him to drink. If you get behind it and push, it may not move, if it does you have no control over which way it goes.

I personally don't care if every guy playing in the NFL and every cheerleader on the sideline was gay. All I am saying, is I don't think this is the way to go about trying to get people to accept it. My opinion is that it doesn't need acceptance. Why, because if there is nothing wrong with it than live your life like there is nothing wrong with it, people will accept it over time.

04-05-2013, 01:30 PM

StaticRaven

Re: 4 Gay Players Might Come Out

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCRAVEN

That assume quite a lot. First that there are only 2 types of people or 3 mayb4 4.

Group 1: Prejudice no matter what, can't have their mind changed
Group 2: Prejudice can have their mind changed, but how do you reach them
Group 3: Not prejudice don't need to reach them
Group 4: Doesn't care either way.

Group 2 can and may change their mind. But saying a "coming out party" is they way to do it, assumes that everyone in the second group will react the same to an event like this. My opinion is that the you would get just as many people in the second group and likely more, who will have a negative reaction to it.

You can't force societal changes on people they happen overtime. If you take the reigns on a horse and lead him to water you're much more likely to get him to drink. If you get behind it and push, it may not move, if it does you have no control over which way it goes.

I personally don't care if every guy playing in the NFL and every cheerleader on the sideline was gay. All I am saying, is I don't think this is the way to go about trying to get people to accept it. My opinion is that it doesn't need acceptance. Why, because if there is nothing wrong with it than live your life like there is nothing wrong with it, people will accept it over time.

NCRaven, in a general sense I agree with a live and let live stance. There's no reason for people to broadcast their sexuality in a public manner - Kind of "rub peoples faces in it" type of thing.

The difference in this situation gay's have been repressed for a long time. I think in this situation it absolutely does require a big "Splash" type announcement. Once it happens, then I'd be much more supportive of your line of reasoning. But I think the splash is required to force initial acceptance. Not that I'm saying "everyone has to agree with being gay", just acceptance of "He's gay, doesn't change anything about his job".

04-05-2013, 01:35 PM

NCRAVEN

Re: 4 Gay Players Might Come Out

Quote:

Originally Posted by StaticRaven

NCRaven, in a general sense I agree with a live and let live stance. There's no reason for people to broadcast their sexuality in a public manner - Kind of "rub peoples faces in it" type of thing.

The difference in this situation gay's have been repressed for a long time. I think in this situation it absolutely does require a big "Splash" type announcement. Once it happens, then I'd be much more supportive of your line of reasoning. But I think the splash is required to force initial acceptance. Not that I'm saying "everyone has to agree with being gay", just acceptance of "He's gay, doesn't change anything about his job".

They have been for a long time. But it is changing. Just the other week, I had out of my 300 (or so) friends on facebook, probably at least half changed their profile pic to an equal sign in support of gay marriage. Think that would have happened 25 years ago? Some states are voting to legalize gay marriage, some aren't but when that vote fails it doesn't fail by the margin it would have years ago.

Seriously, if you want change to happen don't force it on people. If I push you, you will in all likelihood push me back, right? That's all I am saying.

04-05-2013, 01:39 PM

Kyle Cactus

Re: 4 Gay Players Might Come Out

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCRAVEN

That assume quite a lot.

I categorized 2 groups to simplify the discussion. That's not equivalent to assuming something to make a point. Really, the only thing my point assumes is that there are people who are prejudice but capable of changing their prejudices. You said...

Quote:

if anyone thinks that is going to change anyone's mind who currently is not very accepting of homosexuality, they're not being realistic.

I was merely pointing at that this isn't true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCRAVEN

Group 2 can and may change their mind. But saying a "coming out party" is they way to do it, assumes that everyone in the second group will react the same to an event like this. My opinion is that the you would get just as many people in the second group and likely more, who will have a negative reaction to it.

I'm not assuming all prejudice people who are capable of change will react the same way to a certain stimulus. I'm just saying that a more extreme stimulus is likely to change more of them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCRAVEN

You can't force societal changes on people they happen overtime.

Agreed, but I believe you can effect the rate of change.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCRAVEN

My opinion is that it doesn't need acceptance. Why, because if there is nothing wrong with it than live your life like there is nothing wrong with it, people will accept it over time.

People crave acceptance. It's difficult for people to live openly when others are prejudice against their lifestyle.

I get your point, but I just disagree. I think a more drastic showing of people coming out and being supported by others will change more minds more quickly. As you noted above, we're reaching a tipping point with this as a nation. People are taking notice and joining in. If anything that validates what I've said here. People who were asleep in their prejudices or ignorant of the prejudices of other are now being jolted into action, causing change to happen more rapidly.