I don't mind Steve being called a "sporter collie" (and call him that myself) as long as it's not being used as an insult. I really don't have much to do with the hardcore non-sporting Border Collie people because my dog is immediately judged as bad because he didn't come from a ranch and he is merle. (Only "color breeders" breed merle dogs, don't you know?)

That farm bred BC I mentioned in a previous post? His sire is merle and he's definitely not from a sport or color breeder. Most of his puppies are sold to other farmers looking for dogs who get the job done and his dogs have an excellent reputation in that crowd. I'm sure he's not the only farmer out there who has dogs that aren't B&W or R&W (maybe...that is iffy for many too LOL). So that argument has always seemed strange to me. Although the people making it tend to be people who think the only true working BCs are the ones that are trialed. They don't seem consider a farmer with herding BCs to be breeding true working BCs, which also strikes me as a bit odd.

TBH If I were looking to get a great BC, I'd probably go to the farm one of my friends got their very sport capable BC from. Dogs bred for herding, no health checks but the dogs work every day and people from all over get herding dogs from him. And now there's now a few in performance homes too. I think he sells puppies for $300 and no contract but I know he will take dogs back if they don't work out. That's just me though and such a breeder doesn't fit what Laurelin said she wanted, so I listed BC breeders who do and who's dogs I have liked.

I'm confused a bit by this.. Are you saying that Hob Nob doesn't fit the requirements? If they don't, please let me know! I went back and double checked her list and then went back to their website to review and I feel they do fit the requirements quite well.

I didn't list other BC breeders because I don't have any personal experience with other breeders that actually would fit her list. The majority of the agility BCs that are run locally are bred by a working breeder that rarely health tests.

I'm confused a bit by this.. Are you saying that Hob Nob doesn't fit the requirements? If they don't, please let me know! I went back and double checked her list and then went back to their website to review and I feel they do fit the requirements quite well.

No not at all. I'm saying the type of breeder I would probably look at first for a BC would be a farmer with working dogs but such breeder doesn't fit what Laurelin said she wants, so I listed some more sport or working/sport oriented breeders who have dogs I've liked that I thought would suit her.

Hob Nob seems to be a big name in performance/obedience BCs. A bit pricey and seem to have a fairly strict contract but obviously, a lot of serious performance people think very highly of them. I don't have much experience with their dogs one way or another.

No not at all. I'm saying the type of breeder I would probably look at first for a BC would be a farmer with working dogs but such breeder doesn't fit what Laurelin said she wants, so I listed some more sport or working/sport oriented breeders who have dogs I've liked that I thought would suit her.

Hob Nob seems to be a big name in performance/obedience BCs. A bit pricey and seem to have a fairly strict contract but obviously, a lot of serious performance people think very highly of them. I don't have much experience with their dogs one way or another.

I live in the northwest - HN dogs are EVERYWHERE. With that being said, they are very distinctive both in conformation and temperament for the most part. The ETS is something that I have observed from watching numerous dogs trial. I don't see that many performing well in agility vs. the amount that she sells... look at CP. Almost every dog that they have sold is titled in agility. Karen is much more selective about where they go and tries to only sell to performance homes. The demand for her dogs is enough that usually she only has proven performance homes to pick from.

Another thing about HN I don't like (and this is completely personal) is the way she exercises her dogs. I get that not all breeders can title their dogs in agility or obedience, ect, but I would really think it would count if the breeding stock were out PERFORMING - at the very least, the dogs represented as "herding bred" out with a trainer. Not sure I understand her way of thinking there. JMHO.

Another thing about HN I don't like (and this is completely personal) is the way she exercises her dogs. I get that not all breeders can title their dogs in agility or obedience, ect, but I would really think it would count if the breeding stock were out PERFORMING - at the very least, the dogs represented as "herding bred" out with a trainer. Not sure I understand her way of thinking there. JMHO.

She has had knee replacement surgery in both knees and cannot trial from what she told me. Some of the dogs she breeds to are being trialed by other people and are out performing. For example Steeple and Klepto are doing very very well in the agility world I think.

I think she has nice dogs from the 2 or 3 I've met. The only thing that concerns me is the number of litters she has. Which seems to be 6-8 per year in the last few years. A little less in 2011 at 4. I don't have too many problems with breeders breeding a lot but I do like reasons for it and she hasn't really given me any from when I tried to talk to her about it.

She has had knee replacement surgery in both knees and cannot trial from what she told me. Some of the dogs she breeds to are being trialed by other people and are out performing. For example Steeple and Klepto are doing very very well in the agility world I think.

I think she has nice dogs from the 2 or 3 I've met. The only thing that concerns me is the number of litters she has. Which seems to be 6-8 per year in the last few years. A little less in 2011 at 4. I don't have too many problems with breeders breeding a lot but I do like reasons for it and she hasn't really given me any from when I tried to talk to her about it.

Yeah the number of litter HN pumps out a year really makes me leery. I am not super keen on HN for a couple reasons though so maybe I am biased lol.

__________________

Quote:

Originally Posted by AngryMan

I think u need some angry school.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renee750il

That's what we do here. We're emotionally invested in each other and each other's dogs, the joys and the sorrows.

She has had knee replacement surgery in both knees and cannot trial from what she told me. Some of the dogs she breeds to are being trialed by other people and are out performing. For example Steeple and Klepto are doing very very well in the agility world I think.

I think she has nice dogs from the 2 or 3 I've met. The only thing that concerns me is the number of litters she has. Which seems to be 6-8 per year in the last few years. A little less in 2011 at 4. I don't have too many problems with breeders breeding a lot but I do like reasons for it and she hasn't really given me any from when I tried to talk to her about it.

Yes - I got the same story. I think it could be approached differently i.e the dogs are placed out in homes on co-owns that gives them the opportunity to prove themselves. That's how many breeders I know handle their programs when they are unwilling/unable to "prove out" their dogs themselves.

Oh, another thing. This applies to any breeder I'm interested in - I don't like ones that select dogs based off of colors, or really worry about colors at all.

I have met several Contact Point Border Collies... they are all amazing, and temperament-wise what a BC should be! Confident, active but not bouncing of the walls, intuitive, noble & loyal. They've all been remarkably friendly (not a Lab, but very comfortable with all kinds of people/children meeting them). And you cannot find a better Agility/Flyball/Obedience dog. Their intensity and focus is amazing! CP also proves their dogs' working ability which is important.

Not important, but CP has some of the prettiest, most colorful dogs I've ever seen, too! I would definitely go to them for an agility prospect.

Or Spy's breeder, because Spy is THE HANDSOMEST Border Collie.

I have heard that HN is run by a crazy lady... from many, many BC people. I would stay far away from her based on her reputation and the fact that, quality or not, she's running a BC puppy mill with all of those litters and dogs! I'm not a fan of the way her dogs look either. They have those dull eyes.