Posted
by
CmdrTacoon Monday February 15, 2010 @09:42AM
from the there-can-be-only-one dept.

AVee writes "Intel and Nokia just announced a new project called MeeGo. MeeGo is supposed to be the result of merging Maemo and Moblin, bringing together the best pieces of those (already quite similar platforms). Interestingly this means that Intel will be sponsoring a mobile Linux distro which will run on ARM."

I think the point is that Intel is making it. You know.. Intel, the company which primarily makes IA32 and AMD64 processors, is making an operating system that also supports ARM. Imagine if the line read "Interestingly this means that Microsoft will be sponsoring an office suite which will run on Linux".

But unlike say, OpenMoko, you have hardware vendors backing this, not to mention a proper device already on the market (Nokia N900) I think Intel already contributes to Linux, so this isn't new for them.

Really I don't quite get why OpenMoko exists as an independent project either except that nobody seemed able to agree to all get together. Fragmentation in server and desktop space isn't a big deal and the choices made available to users are valuable, but in the mobile marketplace those considerations really don't apply so much. All that is really left as a justification for various mobile Linux projects has always been no more than technical disagreements about how to implement certain things and a desire

The openmoko software projects are entirely community driven. The hardware development is only done by educational institutions now I believe. Parts of the software stack will most likely survive beyond the openmoko project. The Enlightenment team are working for Samsung on smart phones for example. For now, I have a great phone which I like using and which I can develop for [glitch.tl], so I am happy.

Not that I'm a conspiricy theorist, but what if someone at Intel was thinking.. hmm.. maybe we'll sponsor the dominant distribution for ARM platforms but give it a name that non-geeks will think is sissy.

I think it's more of a case of cutting down on maintenance and reducing fragmentation. You could potentially run Moblin or any piece of software that runs on Linux on Arm by recompiling anyway, so it makes very little difference.

This will make the next version of the Nokia internet tablet series very interesting indeed, I think. Will this be a new Android, running on both netbooks and higher-end smartphones? Anyway, I like the idea.

How so? Android is already running in most of those devices (check this wikipedia page [wikipedia.org] on that topic, tablets, netbooks, ebook readers and more is listed there, and there is plenty of different devices announced for a maybe close future).

Q Will MeeGo use.rpm or.deb as its packaging system?A: MeeGo will use the.rpm format

http://meego.com/about/faq

Also Quim Gil of Maemo stated that it will officially support both GTK+ and Qt (original plan for Maemo 6 was to officially support only Qt and deliver GTK+ via community supported packages)http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=527251&postcount=87

It's really a problem? I mean, package wars are so 1999. I recently switched to a RPM based distro after 9 years using and loving APT. And while there're differences (some advantages, some disadvantages), these days they're pretty much the same thing. I'm using KDE 4.4 from Fedora rawhide in my Fedora 13 base system, just as I would have done in Ubuntu. There're things far more important in this merge than using RPM instead of DEB. Like, for example, focusing on QT instead of Clutter.

I use Arch too but there are some things that stack against it for consumer devices this will run on.

Pacman lacks a stable/polished gui and has no built in downgrade support (you have to manually install an old package from/var/cache which you hopefully didn't clean out). Apt also has other features like the gpg keys that though you and I may not miss, but I'm sure others may.

I use Arch too but there are some things that stack against it for consumer devices this will run on.

Pacman lacks a stable/polished gui and has no built in downgrade support (you have to manually install an old package from/var/cache which you hopefully didn't clean out). Apt also has other features like the gpg keys that though you and I may not miss, but I'm sure others may.

Agreed. But I am sure you can create a nice polished GUI easily and also somehow allow downgrading without a dpkg-apt mess. There has to be another way.

One question... why? I bet your prejudices are based on very outdated information.

I've used yum, zypper, apt, and pacman based systems before, and I don't see any significant differences in the packaging format's power. Repositories are often set up a bit differently, but that's a policy issue. What is this major feature DEB has that RPM doesn't? Or even that apt has that yum doesn't?

I'll bet you haven't used RPM in-depth since before YUM became the preferred front-end. If you had, you would have already known that rpm:dpkg what yum:apt, and there really isn't much of a difference between the two stacks, at this point.

It's funny how little some people can be bothered to know about the Linux world outside their own little preferred ecosystems. Last week, I suggested that a co-worker might want use RPMs instead of tarballs to distribute a patched custom LAMP stack to a server farm. Rather than admit that he didn't know anything about writing spec files and couldn't be bothered to learn, he started lecturing me on the evils of "RPM dependency hell".

In 2050, I'm sure some people who use some kind of Linux on a daily basis will still be spouting these old saws, feebly unaware that everybody is just too polite to whack an old geezer with the clue bat.

It isn't important to average users, maybe, but it is to the nerds on/.This is the only mobile Linux distro that takes openness and interop with desktop Linux seriously, so I'll still support it, but I really liked the fact that Maemo was Debian-based

Maybe to the average nerd on/., but not to anyone who understands Maemo at all.

Maemo was Debian-based in the same way that Microsoft is standards-based: buried at some pointless level and entirely irrelevant to users and developers alike. The API and SDK are of far greater consequence.

That's misrepresenting it completely. Even though the recommended API is Qt and most people will stick to poking, Maemo's Debian base makes everything be where expected when users are in the terminal. For developers, being based on a real Linux distro means that any programming language works, and screw the SDK. A better analogy would be like the engine in your car, but certainly not like Microsoft and standards. Most people don't know how it works, but it's there, and it's important.

Speaking as a nerd on/., I have to say that whether Maemo itself is Debian-based is not as important as it seems. The Maemo repo isn't really compatible with the "true" Debian repos; if you want to apt-get install your pretty little heart out, what you do is install the package "easy-deb-chroot". In other words: getting access to the Debian software catalogue is orthogonal to the packaging system Maemo apps use. I hope that MeeGo still offers an easy-deb-chroot package, but it's fine if it's packaged as an

This is the only mobile Linux distro that takes openness and interop with desktop Linux seriously, so I'll still support it, but I really liked the fact that Maemo was Debian-based

Being a big fan of Debian (see my sig), I have to agree. Some claim that Maemo/Meego "is not a desktop OS, compatibility isn't important", but I'd just like to point out that Debian is the *only* distro I can run as a server *and* desktop OS, on multiple architectures, and not have it give me headaches. Why can't we extend the D

Just add something to it, that does not directly link into GPL code (and therefore can be closed-source), but that everybody will use and expect from then on. Then everyone who does not offer that function, will be left out in the cold, and called “incompatible” (Which of course is the wrong way around and totally unfair.)

And in the long term, it might just create a market for something which is neither ARM nor x86. And that something may well be build by Intel as well. The only reason we stick to x86 is binary compatibility, with more open-source that becomes less important.

Both Maemo and Moblin started off Gtk-based, using the Clutter toolkit on top of Gtk. Now both have switched over to Qt. Are there any other serious users of Clutter left?

I hear lots of projects starting with or switching to Qt these days, and none that switch to or start with Gtk. Having programmed in both Gtk and Qt, I have to say I understand why. Qt is hands down the better and more elegant toolkit, despite my preference for C over C++. Qt also makes it easier than Gtk to port between Linux, Mac and Windows. Gtk on the other hand is stuck with a horrible dependency hell that prevents using it for anything serious on non-Linux platforms.

I think the way forward for Linux on the desktop is to standardize on one GUI toolkit, and there is no doubt that this toolkit would have to be Qt. It is a bit sad, because I always like Gnome better than KDE, and I see no easy way for Gnome to convert over to Qt.

It seems that functionally Clutter has been superceded by advances in Qt.. Qt supports OpenGL/ES/VG backends and has a new "declarative UI" for designing animated and custom UIs. In fact since the Nokia aquisition Qt seems to have all but forgotten about the desktop and most new features are squarely aimed at implementing fluid custom iPhone-like interfaces on smartphone/netbook targets.

I was playing out with Qt and Qt Creator recently and the framework is very accessible and cross-platform, while GTK+ is somewhat more of a hassle to port. It's also nicer to develop with (much easier to get started and the Qt library has some very nice features, esp. since the 4.6 release).

That said, I perceive KDE as a very ugly desktop environment. I stopped using it a long time ago. Still checking it out once or twice a year, but I don't like it compared to GNOME. I want a desktop th

I was playing out with Qt and Qt Creator recently and the framework is very accessible and cross-platform, while GTK+ is somewhat more of a hassle to port.

Unfortunately, GTK is a huge panopoly of multiple dependencies that simply haven't got easier to package up over the years, and in many ways have got worse. It's cross-platform support is also pretty terrible as a result, especially when it comes to Windows and Mac but for embedded devices I would imagine the pain and maintenance would be worse. Sad, but

> Both Maemo and Moblin started off Gtk-based, using the Clutter toolkit on top of Gtk.

You would have a point had it been done for technical reasons. And had you known what you were going on about. Maemo was never based on clutter, it predated clutter by several years and the hardware it ships on lacks 3d acceleration. This is corporate politics at work. Maemo is pretty much dead if you ask me, managed into oblivion. Moblin was already a dead horse, being tied too closely to both the x86 anchor and

You would have a point had it been done for technical reasons. And had you known what you were going on about. Maemo was never based on clutter, it predated clutter by several years and the hardware it ships on lacks 3d acceleration.

Sadly, it seems you're also out of date. Maemo5 features 3d effects [maemo.org], to great use. I'm not sure whether clutter was in the final design, though.

The whole point of switching to Qt is that porting is often as easy as recompiling, and both are very similar Linux distributions. I don't think what you fear is that likely, especially since you can already write Qt apps even for Maemo 5.

You would have a point had it been done for technical reasons. And had you known what you were going on about. Maemo was never based on clutter, it predated clutter by several years and the hardware it ships on lacks 3d acceleration.

He does know what he's talking about. He specifically said Maemo and Moblin, and Moblin does use Clutter.

The current shipping product is GTK based and everyone had already been warned of a rip and replace of most of the guts to go to Qt for the next version. Why? Because Nokia

How about the handset manufacturers get behind one distro, and make it awesome? All multuple distros, with multiple app stores, and all sorts of crazy interfaces will do is fragment the market. In the end, none of them will succeed!

Those 3 could probably work together... Maybe Android is too full of itself and Samsung should join Meego and drop Bada too.

The question for all these is who control the app store, and i think meego allows all of them to control their own while still staying compatible.This also means open access to an open market of different store for consumers if the platform is to stay open and thus attract people.

Are we seeing the computer software industry transform into a "Label" that distributes apps?I can't understand this model in a world where everyone can setup their own distribution channel for 20$.It's only a winning move if you can sell hardware and the only way to compete against the über monopolistic Apple model is this.

Nokia bought Trolltech in order to get control of QT. And Intel bought OpenedHand in order to improve Clutter and Moblin. Now they merge their platforms, which is based on the Nokia's QT. Money wasted for OpenedHand buy out? It looks like Intel had plenty of money to dump for unstrategic move.

Now it's obvious that QT will evolve for Mobile devices. And GTK will evolve to be a solid Desktop toolkit for Linux. When maemo project started GTK had lost lots of blood because Nokia contribution had no visible be

Now it's obvious that QT will evolve for Mobile devices. And GTK will evolve to be a solid Desktop toolkit for Linux.

Well, Qt (it's Qt by the way) has been available for mobile devices for years and it already is a solid desktop toolkit for Linux. The added development, interest and perhaps new applications and functionality from the mobile direction will be most welcome. I know a lot of people like to crow about the 'Linux desktop', but there has been nothing whatsoever happening on that front for Gnome o

I don't see why Qt would lose. Its development tools (Qt Creator, KDevelop) are still much better and more polished than anything Gtk has to offer, and much more like what you have in Windows land. Heck, Qt Creator is probably the first real C++ RAD environment for Linux that I've seen, and the second one overall (the first one was C++ Builder).

Also, Qt is preferable if you want better L&F integration - if you write a Gtk application, it will look alien in KDE, but if you write a Qt4 appication, it will

I was recently worried they'd both wither on the vine trying to compete against Android and filling almost exactly the same space. Thus I was thinking I'd have to base a project on ChromeOS, which seemed strategically foolish (at least Nokia and Intel will have divergent interests to keep development focused on solving problems well in the abstract, rather than quick-n-dirty tangents a single vendor can accept).

Especially if they stay with the mainline kernel, which Google isn't interested in doing, together Intel and Nokia are going to be much more successful than competing poorly against each other and Google.

So, here's one developer's intent to go this way rather than Android (for a non-phone project). Congrats to the adults in both camps.

I was recently worried they'd both wither on the vine trying to compete against Android and filling almost exactly the same space.

I've been especially excited about the fact that the n900 runs what roughly amounts to Debian inside. Google's neutering of key parts of the Linux kernel and subsystems really put a damper on people hacking on those internals of Android or porting existing software to the mobile OS.

Especially if they stay with the mainline kernel, which Google isn't interested in doing

It was quite disheartening for Google to make that choice. Google's decision was probably based on some kind of cheapest-bang-for-the-buck calculation, but the funny thing is that Google often goes the extra mile, such as their D [dataliberation.org]

As a final parting shot, I have the most experience with Debian and Ubuntu system, so I would have preferred that they choose apt and.debs over yum and.rpms, but certainly more important than the package manager is the hope that they'll continue to maintain a free and open system.

Agreed. I have more experience on the RPM side, but I owned an n810 for about a year and found apt to be fine, it didn't really matter. The bad old days of dpkg bitching about circular dependencies didn't revisit during my time

FUD? GNOME/gtk+ is managed by the GNOME foundation, an NPO, and Qt is managed by Nokia a for profit company but that's where the differences end. Both are available through public git repositories, and both are licensed through the LGPL (with Qt also available through the GPL 3 and Proprietary licenses).

Qt is fairly widely deployed as well, even in the 'community' or would you like us to forget about KDE?