Kinda fits in with George's description of "moral and philosophical problems, such as the necessity for moral choices and the wisdom needed to distinguish right from wrong, justice, confrontation, and passing on what you have learned."

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Did Lucas say that this was what the new trilogy was going to be about?

Kinda fits in with George's description of "moral and philosophical problems, such as the necessity for moral choices and the wisdom needed to distinguish right from wrong, justice, confrontation, and passing on what you have learned."

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Did Lucas say that this was what the new trilogy was going to be about?

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It was from a TIME magazine interview where he described the main themes of each trilogy.

One could also argue that these elements are implied by ROTJ. For those of you that have actually read Campbell's work, you would also know that not all elements of the "journey" are required nor present in every story.

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Which one of these are implied by RotJ? Luke had just went through the last stages of INITIATION at the end of RotJ and hadn't had a chance to enter the RETURN phase.

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There is a difference between implied and carried out. Each of these elements could surely be argued has having been implied by the last few scenes of ROTJ. Implied in that we, the audience, could make a reasonable assumption that these elements would be the result of the conclusion of the film. I also made reference to the fact that in Campbell's work, that all elements are not required nor present in all stories, which would apply to the Refusal to Return element on the list that does not apply here.

But since you asked, here is how the others could be argued as implied:

Magic Flight: Luke drags his redeemed father onto the shuttle and flees the about to be destroyed Death Star, flying back to his friends with his personal part of the boon.

Rescue from Without: Luke returns to his friends who helps him achieve his success, and they rejoice in victory, which implies they will be with him as he assimilates to the new life that will come from his accomplishments.

The Crossing of the Return Threshold: This is what the Ghost scene represents. He is acknowleged by the spirits of Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Hayden Christiensen , as having "done good" and can thus return to the world and pass on what he has learned.

Master of Two Worlds: Luke is now a Jedi and part of a larger group of people he has grown to care for. Together they will move on for the greater good.

Freedom to Live: The ability to retain ones identity after the death of their physical body is now something Luke knows to exist, thus he is freed from the fear of death, which in this element allows for the freedom to live. Once could reasonably assume that Luke will have this ability when the time comes simply because he is a Jedi Master post Anakins redemption, and exposed to the ability by Yoda, Obi, and Anakin.

Again, these things, if not carried out in ROTJ, can reasonably be assumed to have happened as a result of the events of the film.

I'm not saying they can't be applied to the story of the ST, because they probably will be, but like I said, one could argue......

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Implied to happen in the FUTURE. i.e. ST, not implied to happen in the PRESENT, i.e. during RotJ. The same could be said about the Hero's Journey and ANH, most of the steps of INITIATION were implied to happen by the end of the film, but needed the rest of the OT to SHOW it happened. Same with the RETURN, the ST will show it happen.

With all due respect, your examples do not match the steps described.

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This is what implied means. And the idea that they are arguable, which is what I said, is proven by the fact that I can give examples things as matching these elements, or implying they happen as a result, where you don't agree.

Im sure if you had a number of people read the text that you have provided with the info on each element, some would see what I'm saying, and some would side with your interpretation of them.

Arguable.

And for the record, I have not stated MY interpretaion of these things, just that its not unreasonable to see them another way.

Strictly speaking, anything is arguable because people can argue about anything. I can argue that Luke's lightsaber was orange in RotJ, when clearly it was green, but that doesn't mean I can't argue that it was orange.

Nobody can argue that the examples you gave fit the descriptions given.

Magic Flight: Luke drags his redeemed father onto the shuttle and flees the about to be destroyed Death Star, flying back to his friends with his personal part of the boon.
does not fit:

Having found bliss and enlightenment in the other world, the hero may not want to return to the ordinary world to bestow the boon onto his fellow man.Campbell: "When the hero-quest has been accomplished, through penetration to the source, or through the grace of some male or female, human or animal, personification, the adventurer still must return with his life-transmuting trophy. The full round, the norm of the monomyth, requires that the hero shall now begin the labor of bringing the runes of wisdom, the Golden Fleece, or his sleeping princess, back into the kingdom of humanity, where the boon may redound to the renewing of the community, the nation, the planet or the ten thousand worlds. But the responsibility has been frequently refused. Even Gautama Buddha, after his triumph, doubted whether the message of realization could be communicated, and saints are reported to have died while in the supernal ecstasy. Numerous indeed are the heroes fabled to have taken up residence forever in the blessed isle of the unaging Goddess of Immortal Being."

Rescue from Without: Luke returns to his friends who helps him achieve his success, and they rejoice in victory, which implies they will be with him as he assimilates to the new life that will come from his accomplishments.
does not fit

Sometimes the hero must escape with the boon, if it is something that the gods have been jealously guarding. It can be just as adventurous and dangerous returning from the journey as it was to go on it.Campbell: "If the hero in his triumph wins the blessing of the goddess or the god and is then explicitly commissioned to return to the world with some elixir for the restoration of society, the final stage of his adventure is supported by all the powers of his supernatural patron. On the other hand, if the trophy has been attained against the opposition of its guardian, or if the hero's wish to return to the world has been resented by the gods or demons, then the last stage of the mythological round becomes a lively, often comical, pursuit. This flight may be complicated by marvels of magical obstruction and evasion." [14]Classic examples: In many fairy tales and folktales, it is literally a magic flight, such as in The Wonderful Wizard of Oz, with the hero or heroine transforming objects to stop the pursuit (The Master Maid, The Water Nixie) or transforming himself and any companions to hide themselves (Farmer Weathersky or Foundling-Bird).

and so on for each example. I suggest you read the examples you gave vs. the summary of each step, not just its title.

I'm loving all the Campbell; I would totally support more Campbell-based threads on the forum, particularly now; but does it really belong in this particular thread? This one's more about what changed to prompt Lucas to go forward with the Sequel Trilogy, and not so much about the thematic basis in the Campbell-derived Monomyth structural model for said trilogy. But please make sure the Campbell material gets its own thread; it's clearly starting a most fascinating discussion.

I apologize if this discussion took it off topic. What I wanted to use the Campbell material for is to show that Lucas has this in his head and telling this story/completing the Saga is what prompted him to proceed with the ST.

So you feel that he chose to go forward with the ST specifically out of a desire to either complete the saga, or to tell the story he had devised, and that there were no other considerations? I'm afraid you left that a little unclear.

But hey, no need to apologize. I'd far sooner have Campbell-themed threads in this forum than some of the bunk we've been seeing. Please go forward with exploring the way Campbell's ideas will be, or even could be, utilized in the Sequel Trilogy, because I think it would make one hell of a thread. I have a heap of Campbell's books myself (including his biography, which goes into some detail in the latter chapters about how the personal relationship between Campbell and Lucas was formed and how it progressed) and I look forward to seeing where the discussion will go. Count on my contributing to it with great enthusiasm.

So you feel that he chose to go forward with the ST specifically out of a desire to either complete the saga, or to tell the story he had devised, and that there were no other considerations? I'm afraid you left that a little unclear.

But hey, no need to apologize. I'd far sooner have Campbell-themed threads in this forum than some of the bunk we've been seeing. Please go forward with exploring the way Campbell's ideas will be, or even could be, utilized in the Sequel Trilogy, because I think it would make one hell of a thread. I have a heap of Campbell's books myself (including his biography, which goes into some detail in the latter chapters about how the personal relationship between Campbell and Lucas was formed and how it progressed) and I look forward to seeing where the discussion will go. Count on my contributing to it with great enthusiasm.

I apologize if this discussion took it off topic. What I wanted to use the Campbell material for is to show that Lucas has this in his head and telling this story/completing the Saga is what prompted him to proceed with the ST.

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While we are all huggin' it out here ..... I did understand your meaning of the Campbell material in the context of this topic. In the same context, my point was to say that some may think these things were already covered. But yes, a "Campbell and the ST" thread could get interesting quick!

I'm not saying that there were no other considerations, because I think that there was, but I really do think that the main reason that he decided to make the ST was to complete his 9 episode story that he's had since the late 70's. I think the themes he outlined in the TIME magazine interview (which coincide with Campbell), are important to him and he wanted to make sure that they were told.

Here's what I think happened: Lucas had, like, a page or two of handwritten notes about the ST from 1979/1980, stuck it in a drawer somewhere, and a lot of it changed with the plot of ROTJ meant to tie up the trilogy. Handwritten notes continue to sit in drawer for decades. Says there will be no ST. Post ROTS, Star Wars brand continues to be strong but does sort of decline. Lucas gets a kick outta working on "Clone Wars" in an advisory capacity creatively, it's not as much of a strain as it was on him making movies. Maybe he would like to do that with more Star Wars. With franchises arguably becoming even more prominent at the box office post "Sith", and the potential for the brand to live on, Lucas kicks it over to Disney, seeing how they've handled Marvel and Pixar. Pages are dusted off, realizes that a whole lot will have to be changed considering the ending of ROTJ, begins to revise treatment. And actually type it up on a word processor this time.

I believe that TCW got Lucas to do the ST. If one looks at his involvement in the show, one can see it grow throughout the seasons. He was clearly enjoying working on TCW, and that got him thinking about future plans. He got used to others doing the grunt work thanks to TCW, and thus the idea of someone else doing the ST was born.

Here's what I think happened: Lucas had, like, a page or two of handwritten notes about the ST from 1979/1980, stuck it in a drawer somewhere, and a lot of it changed with the plot of ROTJ meant to tie up the trilogy. Handwritten notes continue to sit in drawer for decades. Says there will be no ST. Post ROTS, Star Wars brand continues to be strong but does sort of decline. Lucas gets a kick outta working on "Clone Wars" in an advisory capacity creatively, it's not as much of a strain as it was on him making movies. Maybe he would like to do that with more Star Wars. With franchises arguably becoming even more prominent at the box office post "Sith", and the potential for the brand to live on, Lucas kicks it over to Disney, seeing how they've handled Marvel and Pixar. Pages are dusted off, realizes that a whole lot will have to be changed considering the ending of ROTJ, begins to revise treatment. And actually type it up on a word processor this time.

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Let me try to clearify what I meant to get at with my original question of "What Changed" because this and what TR is saying above has a lot to do with it.

I was partially asking what may have inspired Lucas to start working on the ST again, but was really looking at the way the story wound up changing along the way and in production, which by all accounts seems to have thrown a wrench in whatever his ST consisted of when he made those old hand written notes. Let me clearify that a little further becasue I'm not sure if I am making my point clearly here.

For however many different ideas have been considered while writting Star Wars, ultimately everything boils down to having either been an idea that made it into the production, or an idea that was scrapped for whatever reason. Some of the things that made the production may not have done so in thier original form, but they made it in none the less. I am mostly referring to Leia as the sister, and Palpatine meeting his fate in Ep VI.

Leia turning out to be the sister I am only using as an example of an idea that made it in, but not in its original form. In this case, Leia was made the sister because Lucas very much wanted the Twins thing to be present in the story. The reason I'm using this example is because moving forward with an ST is not held up by the sister being Leia and not somebody else. It's when a change that does make it difficult to move forward comes into play that requires a change to be made in order for Lucas to outline the ST.

Moving The Emperors defeat to Ep VI is the example that causes the issue. In earlier drafts/thoughts/ideas, Vader was to die in Ep VI, but the final showdown with The Emperor was to be later. With this and some other things consolidated into ROTJ, whatever he had in mind for the ST would need some pretty drastic overhauling in order to happen.

So my question wasn't so much what changed in the sense of inspiration to work on it, but rather what changed in the story to allow it? That is where my thought/theory that things were placed in the PT and such in order to create a situation where an ST could happen as a true continuation.

Here's what I think happened: Lucas had, like, a page or two of handwritten notes about the ST from 1979/1980, stuck it in a drawer somewhere, and a lot of it changed with the plot of ROTJ meant to tie up the trilogy. Handwritten notes continue to sit in drawer for decades. Says there will be no ST. Post ROTS, Star Wars brand continues to be strong but does sort of decline. Lucas gets a kick outta working on "Clone Wars" in an advisory capacity creatively, it's not as much of a strain as it was on him making movies. Maybe he would like to do that with more Star Wars. With franchises arguably becoming even more prominent at the box office post "Sith", and the potential for the brand to live on, Lucas kicks it over to Disney, seeing how they've handled Marvel and Pixar. Pages are dusted off, realizes that a whole lot will have to be changed considering the ending of ROTJ, begins to revise treatment. And actually type it up on a word processor this time.

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Let me try to clearify what I meant to get at with my original question of "What Changed" because this and what TR is saying above has a lot to do with it.

I was partially asking what may have inspired Lucas to start working on the ST again, but was really looking at the way the story wound up changing along the way and in production, which by all accounts seems to have thrown a wrench in whatever his ST consisted of when he made those old hand written notes. Let me clearify that a little further becasue I'm not sure if I am making my point clearly here.

For however many different ideas have been considered while writting Star Wars, ultimately everything boils down to having either been an idea that made it into the production, or an idea that was scrapped for whatever reason. Some of the things that made the production may not have done so in thier original form, but they made it in none the less. I am mostly referring to Leia as the sister, and Palpatine meeting his fate in Ep VI.

Leia turning out to be the sister I am only using as an example of an idea that made it in, but not in its original form. In this case, Leia was made the sister because Lucas very much wanted the Twins thing to be present in the story. The reason I'm using this example is because moving forward with an ST is not held up by the sister being Leia and not somebody else. It's when a change that does make it difficult to move forward comes into play that requires a change to be made in order for Lucas to outline the ST.

Moving The Emperors defeat to Ep VI is the example that causes the issue. In earlier drafts/thoughts/ideas, Vader was to die in Ep VI, but the final showdown with The Emperor was to be later. With this and some other things consolidated into ROTJ, whatever he had in mind for the ST would need some pretty drastic overhauling in order to happen.

So my question wasn't so much what changed in the sense of inspiration to work on it, but rather what changed in the story to allow it? That is where my thought/theory that things were placed in the PT and such in order to create a situation where an ST could happen as a true continuation.

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He could be using his ideas that he had for 10-12 for these new movies

I think ROTJ was supposed to be the end until Lucas began to put together the PT. I believe that during the writting process for the PT, Lucas developed a concept for an ST that would allow him to take the story into areas that earlier drafts of the OT had explored to some degree.

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Lucas had the Sequels in mind many years ago... already back in the 80ies. Mark Hamill told in an old interview Lucas asked him to play Luke again in 30 years or so. The interview is even somewhere on YouTube.

I think ROTJ was supposed to be the end until Lucas began to put together the PT. I believe that during the writting process for the PT, Lucas developed a concept for an ST that would allow him to take the story into areas that earlier drafts of the OT had explored to some degree.

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Lucas had the Sequels in mind many years ago... already back in the 80ies. Mark Hamill told in an old interview Lucas asked him to play Luke again in 30 years or so. The interview is even s
omewhere on YouTube.

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I understand that, but you are missing my point. Many of the ideas he had for an ST many years ago were consolidated into Ep VI, which is why he said he was no longer going to do an ST. So something must have changed in the story for him to move forward with it now.
But what?

I understand that, but you are missing my point. Many of the ideas he had for an ST many years ago were consolidated into Ep VI, which is why he said he was no longer going to do an ST.

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Not true, this is based on Kurtz's comments. Comments that have been contradicted by the Making of Books and Lucas himself. They do not reflect the interviews George gave post RotJ dealing with the ST or his intro to the re-release of Splinter of the Mind's Eye.