Sure the physical duration of the "length" of a month had a variability associated with it as is created by the wobble of the Earth as it spins on its' axis & some days are longer & shorter than others for the same reason, but that is not the issue here. The issue is the hard number of those days & months as stated in the scripture disassociated from Earth's wobble. I frankly still do not get your point there is not an exact fit here.

Daniel puts a lot of effort into giving us all these numbers. To just brush them off as not being real seems a bit harsh.

Start counting from the day that daniel starts counting and you will get your numbers working out accurately. For instance, if Daniel says start counting when you see the abomination that causes desolation standing in the holy city, and he tells you what will happen at the end of the count, he's giving you a template, an overview, for how this is going to all play out. Isn't that what prophecy does? Not use random obscure meaningless numbers that are not applicable to anything...

If this is prophecy written for the current days, then surely they would use the same calendars that we use, otherwise it would be useless to us. So, yes, 42 months does equal 3 1/2 years. And, I suspect, if Daniel is talling us something will last for 3 1/2 years, you can take it to the bank.

Sure the physical duration of the "length" of a month had a variability associated with it as is created by the wobble of the Earth as it spins on its' axis & some days are longer & shorter than others for the same reason, but that is not the issue here. The issue is the hard number of those days & months as stated in the scripture disassociated from Earth's wobble. I frankly still do not get your point there is not an exact fit here.

The beginnings of the months and the new year in the Jewish calendar was determined by observation of the new crescent Moon. The period between the Moons phases is called the synodic month. It works out on average to about 29.53058 days. So if one were to take months as 30 days, in about 6 months he would be about 3 days out of sync with the new moon. So some months of 29 days have to be included in order to keep in sync with the phases of the moon. It is simply incorrect to say that "the Jewish year was 360 days" or that the months of the Jewish calendar were 30 days. Now we know better. They actually had years of 12 months, and years of 13 months, as an extra month was included roughly every third year, which are called leap years.

When Daniel used numbers that imply months were 30 days, he was no doubt showing that these were not meant to be natural. But this was a cryptic revelation, and the wicked were not meant to understand. Only the wise would understand. And that is what has happened; the wicked do not understand his prophecies. There is much confusion concerning their interpretation, which fulfills the prophecy. The same applies to the related numbers in Revelation. They are not natural periods, but symbolic.

Daniel puts a lot of effort into giving us all these numbers. To just brush them off as not being real seems a bit harsh.

Start counting from the day that daniel starts counting and you will get your numbers working out accurately. For instance, if Daniel says start counting when you see the abomination that causes desolation standing in the holy city, and he tells you what will happen at the end of the count, he's giving you a template...

Lest anyone miss it, he says 3 1/2 years in 3 different ways.

.......and over the course of one year each diurnal cycle of day & night will be different, then the diurnal cycles repeats two & half times more until 3 1/2 years on the Jewish calendar are completed. Doug I believe is using 365 1/4 days of Earth's orbit around the sun as his base reference, but that is not the way the Jewish or Georgian calendars are constructed, there are no fractional parts of a day, so both the Jewish & Georgian calendars make up the fractional parts of a day by creating "leap years". The Jewish calendar leap year is different than the Georgian calendar leap year, but it is only the Jewish calendar we care about here, scrap the Georgian, it will never fit.

Doug

Daniel puts a lot of effort into giving us all these numbers. To just brush them off as not being real seems a bit harsh.

I do not say the periods of prophecy are not real; what I wrote was, the prophetic periods are not a natural three and a half years. And I think I can demonstrate that this is true. A year in the Hebrew calendar was either 12 or 13 months. This works out to either about 354 days, or about 384 days, and three years of 12 months each is about 1,063 days, add 6 months, gives 1,240 days. (These being synodic months.) If one adds an embolismic month (i.e. if one of the years was 13 months) then the total is about 1,270 days. Daniel nowhere mentioned 1,270 days, but he mentioned 1,290 days and 1,335 days. Neither did John mention 1,270 days, but 1,260 days. The prophetic periods, then, cannot be referring to a natural three and a half years. And in three and a half natural years, there would likely be 43 months, or, perhaps, 44 months, not 42 months. So the reality is that the numbers don't support the idea that they refer to a natural three and a half years. But the evidence is strong, that they are symbolic.

Start counting from the day that daniel starts counting and you will get your numbers working out accurately. For instance, if Daniel says start counting when you see the abomination that causes desolation standing in the holy city, and he tells you what will happen at the end of the count, he's giving you a template, an overview, for how this is going to all play out. Isn't that what prophecy does? Not use random obscure meaningless numbers that are not applicable to anything...

If this is prophecy written for the current days, then surely they would use the same calendars that we use, otherwise it would be useless to us. So, yes, 42 months does equal 3 1/2 years. And, I suspect, if Daniel is talling us something will last for 3 1/2 years, you can take it to the bank.

Lest anyone miss it, he says 3 1/2 years in 3 different ways.

Daniel's numbers show that the time periods of prophecy are not a natural three and a half years, as I showed above from the Hebrew calendar. But even when the Julian calendar is used, they do not support the idea that natural periods are meant. In the Julian calendar there are 365 days in a year, and 366 in leap years. So three and a half of these years is about 1,278 days. Take three years, and add six months of 30 days, it is 1,275 days. No help there!

The truth is, I think, that the numbers in Daniel's prophecies, that fit the pattern of a time, times and a half, are symbolic of the age of the church, and the whole time of the "little horn" of chapter 7, that dominates the saints, and "scatters the power of the holy people," by flawed interpretations of prophecy. The little horn has "eyes like the eyes of a man," which suggests it represents a human viewpoint, that is opposed to the divine p.o.v.

Doug

Daniel puts a lot of effort into giving us all these numbers. To just brush them off as not being real seems a bit harsh.

Start counting from the day that daniel starts counting and you will get your numbers working out accurately. For instance, if Daniel says start counting when you see the abomination that causes desolation standing in the holy city, and he tells you what will happen at the end of the count, he's giving you a template...

Lest anyone miss it, he says 3 1/2 years in 3 different ways.

.......and over the course of one year each diurnal cycle of day & night will be different, then the diurnal cycles repeats two & half times more until 3 1/2 years on the Jewish calendar are completed. Doug I believe is using 365 1/4 days of Earth's orbit around the sun as his base reference, but that is not the way the Jewish or Georgian calendars are constructed, there are no fractional parts of a day, so both the Jewish & Georgian calendars make up the fractional parts of a day by creating "leap years". The Jewish calendar leap year is different than the Georgian calendar leap year, but it is only the Jewish calendar we care about here, scrap the Georgian, it will never fit.

As far as I know, there is no such thing as a "Georgian calendar." Do you mean "Gregorian calendar"?

When Daniel used numbers that imply months were 30 days, he was no doubt showing that these were not meant to be natural. But this was a cryptic revelation, and the wicked were not meant to understand. Only the wise would understand. And that is what has happened; the wicked do not understand his prophecies. There is much confusion concerning their interpretation, which fulfills the prophecy. The same applies to the related numbers in Revelation. They are not natural periods, but symbolic.

All I can add to this is that the discussion we've had about the using the Jewish calendar & what I've pointed out thus far is all that is necessary to count the total days & months of the 3 1/2 year period. I'll give you the point that small & specific anomalies occur therein, but clouds which obscure sunlight do not detract from the total duration of a day, the only variable in such a case being the quantity of sunlight received during the daytime period which in no way affects the measured amount of time that has passed.

Many scholars have suggested that it is the biblical symbol of the inter-advent age.

For example, Gregory K. Beale, professor of New Testament and Biblical Theology at Westminster Theological Seminary, considers the time, times and a half of Daniel, and the forty two months of Revelation 11:2, and the 1,260 days when the two witnesses prophesy as representing the inter-advent age beginning from Christ's resurrection and leading up to the final judgment. In his book, John's Use of the Old Testament in Revelation [Sheffield Academic Press. 1999. p. 263.] he wrote:

John views the 'time, times and half a time' of Dan. 12:7 as the interadvent age beginning from the time of Christ's resurrection and leading up to the final judgment. The identification of the threefold time formula from Daniel is deducible especially from 12:4-6, where the period begins from the time of Christ's ascension and refers to the church's time of suffering (so also 12.14). The same meaning is apparent for the equivalent phrase 'forty-two months' in 13.5, which describes the time of the beast's blasphemous and persecuting activities.

In his Revelation commentary Beale remarks on the two witnesses:

The two witnesses prophesy for three and a half years, the same length of time that "the holy city," "the woman," and "those that tabernacle in heaven" are to be oppressed (11:2; 12:6, 14; 13:6). If these texts speak of the persecution of a community, then it is plausible to identify the witnesses likewise. If the image of an individual woman signifies the community of faith existing during the three and a half years, then the image of two individual prophets might also represent the same reality during the same time period (similarly an individual harlot represents the ungodly community in ch. 17). If it is correct to see 11:3 continuing what is in the preceding two verses, then the two witnesses are another depiction of the true Israel, "the holy city," during its time of distress. As already noted, the period of three and a half years is based on Dan. 7:25; 12:7, 11 (and perhaps Dan. 9:27), which prophesies a time of tribulation for Israel as a community. The number represents a concept rather than a literal enumeration, as with other numbers throughout the Apocalypse. ... Here the figurative emphasis is on the true covenant community experiencing tribulation, irrespective of how long the tribulation lasts in literal time.

[Beale, G. K. The Book of Revelation: A Commentary on the Greek Text. New International Greek Testament Commentary. Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdsmans Publishing, 1999. p. 574.]

Further on he adds: [Ibid., p. 646.]

The "three and a half years" have been established as the time of tribulation predicted by Daniel 7, 9 and 12, which commences at Christ's ascension and continues until his return. Of all John's references to this time period, Rev. 12:6 is the clearest in identifying the temporal boundaries of the period (cf. 11:2-3; 13:5). Undoubtedly, here the limited age extends from the resurrection of Christ (v 5) until his final appearance (14:14-20). This is a conclusion similar to that of Rissi, who also argues that Christ's death, cited in 11:8, is the beginning point of the period in 11:2 (for Christ's death as commencing the same period in 13:5 see on 13:3). We have also seen that this period is a time of harm to believers in the earthly sphere but protection for them in the invisible realm of the divine sanctuary.

Doug

On the 1,260 days in Revelation 12:6, the Venerable Bede (672-735), an English monk at the Northumbrian monastery of Saint Peter at Monkwearmouth wrote:In this number of days, which makes three years and a half, he comprehends all the times of Christianity, because Christ, Whose body the Church is, preached the same length of time in the flesh.

There is a reason why the 1,260 days are not literal; they apply to the body of Christ, the spiritual temple, and the bride of the Lamb, all of which are spiritual concepts. How could earth days, and earth months, and earth years apply to them? Of course, they don't; Peter tells us this: "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." [2 Peter 3:8] Just as a day is as a thousand years, the 1,260 days when the two witnesses prophesy is also a non-literal time period, as the Venerable Bede understood and expressed so concisely and eloquently.

Doug

The various numbers can be arranged in sequence, from largest to smallest.

1,335 days1,290 days1,260 days3.5 days

Here we have a picture of a diminishing period, the inter-advent age. The largest number spans the whole period. The next smallest is 1,290 days, which is the remaining time after the daily sacrifices end, and the abomination of desolation is set up. That must have happened about the time the temple was destroyed in the first century. John says that the antichrist spirit was already present in his time. The next smallest number, 1,260 days, is the time of the ministry of the two witnesses, and when the woman flees to the wilderness. This, I think, is symbolic of the remaining time after the canon was completed, and the book of Revelation was written. The scriptures were then completed, and the ministry of the two witnesses began. The smallest number, 3.5 days, is symbolic of a short span of time near the end of the age.

Not symbolic of anything, they are a counting of lengths of individual days from the first day of the Day of the Lord as it begins in Rev 1:10-11. Preterism would have us believe the Millenium started almost two thousand years ago if you go by the way they reconstruct Bible prophecy, that means the Millenium (1000) is already past us & I guess presently we are supposed to be in some kind paradise or whatever the teachings of their post-millenium concept is, at least this is what a Catholic theologian told me one time many years ago.

The two numbers, 1,290 days and 1,335 days, are associated with the time, times and a half, mentioned in the same chapter. [Dan 12:7] They help us to interpret the expression, a time, times and a half, as they both fit the pattern present in that expression.

1,335 days is three and a half years where one year has 12 months, and the rest 13, taking the months as 30 days.1,290 days is three and a half years where one year has 13 months, and the rest 12, taking the months as 30 days.

Of course, no natural three years and a half could possibly equal 1,335 days, or 1,290 days, so they must be symbolic. The largest number represents the whole of the time that Christ waits, for his church to make herself ready for his return. The 1,290 days represents a shorter period, the remaining time after the abomination was set up, the antichrist spirit that John said was already in the church. It "shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time." [Dan 7:25] This has happened throughout all the history of the church since the days of the apostles.

Below is another scholarly discussion on the meaning of the "time, times and a half" and related time periods in Revelation.

Patrick Fairbairn (1805-1874) was a notable Scottish Presbyterian pastor and scholar. He was divinity professor and principal of the Free Church College, Glasgow. The following is part of his discussion of the time periods of chapters 11, 12, and 13 of the Apocalypse, from Prophecy viewed in respect to its distinctive nature, its special function, and proper interpretation. [T. and T. Clark, Edinburgh. 1865]

[Begin quote]

It remains only to notice the indications of time contained in the portion of the Apocalypse we have been surveying. These appear to be simply three, though one of them is expressed in a threefold manner. It is the period of the church's tried and oppressed condition--denoted first in chap. xi. 2, as a period of forty-two months, during which "the holy city is trodden down of the Gentiles," during which also the beast was to continue in its power to blaspheme and injure (chap. xiii. 5); then as consisting of 1260 days (forty-two months multiplied by 30 days), during which the witnesses, representatives of a faithful, but oppressed and persecuted church, were to prophecy, chap. xi. 3, and the church was to abide in the wilderness, chap. xii. 6, having a place and food prepared for her by God; and finally, as a time, times and a half (corresponding to one year of twelve months, two of the same, and a half-year of six, or to forty-two months, or again to 1260 days), during which the church was to remain and be fed in the wilderness, chap. xii. 14. In Dan. vii. 25, where the expression first occurs, it is the time during which the saints of God were to be given into the hand of the power that was to speak great words against the Most High. These are manifestly but different modes of expressing one and the same period, as the state of things also to which they are applied is substantially identical, though variously represented. For the sojourn in the wilderness on the part of the faithful and proper spouse, the treading down of the holy city by those who belonged only to the court of the Gentiles, and the testifying for the truth of God by a faithful remnant clothed in sackcloth, and wrestling against error and corruption; these are obviously but different symbolical representations of the same abnormal and dislocated state of things. The other two periods mentioned are both very brief, as compared with the one just noticed. The shortest is that during which the bodies of the faithful witnesses are represented as lying dead, though unburied, three and a half days, chap. xi. 12; and the other is the five months during which the scorpion-locusts were to have power to torment the followers of the beast, chap. ix. 5.

Now, it is scarcely possible to avoid being struck even on the most cursory inspection of these periods, with a peculiarity that is common to them all--the broken and incomplete aspect they present. A certain whole was evidently in respect to each of them in the mind of the Divine author of the vision, as that toward which the parties spoken of were aiming, but were arrested midway in their career. This is particularly observable in the largest and by much the most important number, which in every form--whether as time, times and a half, or as the months and days that make up three and a half years--is most expressive of an unfinished course, a period somehow cut off in the middle. In like manner, the three and a half days of rejoicing over the unburied corpses of the slain witnesses, betokens the same violent and abrupt termination of the course indicated; in their ungodly triumph, the adversaries could not complete more than half of one of the briefest revolutions of time--one of the smallest cycles of the whole period allotted to the ascendency of evil. The incompleteness may appear less palpable in the five months specified for the plague of scorpion-locusts; but it will scarcely do so to those who have attended to the use made in Scripture of ten with reference to certain kinds of totality. The five is simply the broken ten.

So marked a peculiarity in the use of all these numbers is itself a strong presumption in favour of their symbolical import It seems to stamp their value as indications of relative, rather than of absolute periods of duration--relative both as regards each other, and also as regards an ideal whole. And it will appear to do so the more convincingly the more the periods are viewed in reference to the parties mentioned, which are the entire spiritual church throughout the world, on the one side, and the whole antichristian power on the other; for in regard to such vast bodies, and their wide-reaching interests, what could such periods avail in their natural sense! They could obviously afford but a mere fraction of the time necessary for the accomplishment of the results connected with them; nor could such results in actual history be shut up into any periods consisting of such exact and definite measures. Another, and very powerful consideration in favour of the same view is the place of these historical numbers--surrounded on every hand, not with the literal, but with the symbolical. The woman that is persecuted, and the dragon who persecutes; the wilderness into which she flees, and the floods sent after her; the beast that rages against the truth, and the two witnesses who testify for it to the death; the holy city that is trodden down, and the Egypt or Babylon by whom the treading is effected; all are symbolically used, and shall the periods of working be otherwise than symbolical? In that case there would be the violation of one of the plainest laws of symbolical writing, and confusion and arbitrariness, as a matter of necessity, would be brought into the interpretation. It is true, the number seven, as applied to the heads of the beast, and the number ten spoken of its ultimate forms of separate organization, have already been found by us to possess a kind of historical verification. But this, when more closely considered, manifests an evident striving after the symbolical. For, it is to make out the number seven, that St John diverges so strikingly here from the representation of Daniel, taking in the two earlier worldly kingdoms, which Daniel had omitted, and making of the divided state of Daniel's fourth empire a separate kingdom--the seventh. Nay, even this seventh he calls in a sense also the eighth--chap. xvii. 11--although seven still is taken as the proper number, because it alone has the proper symbolical import. The beast comes into view mainly as the rival of God, and seven being the common symbol of completeness for the Divine manifestations in the world (Isa. xxx. 26; Zech. iii. 9, iv. 2; Prov. ix. 1; Rev. i. 4, iii. 1, etc.)--originating, no doubt, in the sevenfold acts of God at creation--the worldly rival of God's power and glory in the world is, in token of its God-defying character, presented under the same number of manifestations. For a like reason the divided state of the last manifestation is distributed into the number ten. This also is often used as a symbol of completeness, on which account the ancients called it the perfect number, which comprehends all others in itself. But it commonly denotes completeness in respect to human interests and relations--as in the tithes or tenths (ten being regarded as comprising the entire property, from which one was selected to do homage to him who gave the whole), and the ten commandments, the sum of man's dutiful obedience. When, therefore, the divided state into which the modern Roman world fell, is represented under ten horns or kingdoms, it may well be doubted whether this should be pressed farther than as indicating, by a round number, the totality of the new states--the diversity in the unity--whether or not it might admit of being exactly and definitely applied to so many historical kingdoms. There is always some difficulty in making out an exact correspondence; and we should the less hold such a correspondence to be necessary, since even in the case of the tribes of Israel, when taken to represent the company of an elect people (chap. vii.), one tribe is totally omitted to preserve the symbolism of the historical twelve. This shows very strikingly the stress laid on the symbolical element, and strengthens the conclusion, that both in the seven and ten, as applied to the beast, and in the broken periods now under consideration, that element is primarily respected. Lastly, there is to be added on the same side the obviously loose setting of the periods; neither their starting-point, nor their termination is sharply defined. Viewed historically, indeed, one does not see how it could have been otherwise. The flight of the church into the wilderness, or the treading down of the holy city by the Gentiles, came on gradually; and appeared in different places at different times. It cannot be linked to definite historical epochs, as if at one or other of these it commenced for the first time, and for the whole church; and from the very nature of things, the termination must have a like diversity and gradation in its accomplishment. This draws a plain line of demarcation between the periods before us, and Daniel's seventy weeks, which are definitely bounded both in respect to their commencement and their close. The narrower field, and more outward character of the things they referred to, easily admitted of such a limitation; but here the world is the field, and the cause of vital Christianity throughout its borders the great interest at stake.

Giving all these considerations their due weight, we cannot avoid arriving at the conclusion, that the periods mentioned, in accordance with the general character of the book, are to be chiefly, if not exclusively, understood in a symbolical manner, as serving to indicate the times of relative length or brevity which the operations described were destined to occupy. If anything further is implied, it should only, we conceive, be looked for in some general correspondence, as to form, between the symbol and the reality, such as might be sufficient to guide thoughtful and inquiring minds to a more firm assurance of the realisation of the vision. But all precise and definite calculations respecting the periods, as they necessarily proceed upon a disregard of the symbolical character of the book, and upon a too external and political contemplation of the events to which it points, so they must inevitably be defeated of their aim in the future, as they have continually been in the past. The prophecy was not written to give men to know after such a fashion, the times and the seasons, which the Father has put in His own power.

So this way of looking at end times prophecy has nothing to do with the Jews or the country of Israel? It is only about the church? And the time of Jacob's trouble somehow refers to the church? Why call it Jacob's trouble, then?

I guess this makes sense of the Left Behind Series. They make it all about the church, too. But, I'm not sure what the point is of putting a mature church through the great tribulation. [Left behind series doesn't, the church is gone by the time of the tribulation]. Plus,maybe this is heaven on earth to the Catholic church, but...I can't see where this is the millenium reign of Christ. He rules in the hearts and minds of his servants, but the rest of the world bows to Satan.

The numbers will never make sense to me under this interpretation. They only make sense to me if you are counting real days between one event and another.

Fairbairn's Prophecy is, among other things, an example of prophetic interpretation before the overbearing rise of dipsinsationalism. I've wandered around in it and looked up some things, but not thoroughly read it. It's to be commended, not as the easiest to read, but for the rewards in searching after Fairbairn's opening up scripture. The quote from Prophecy in Doug's reply #194 concerning the 3 1/2 years (seasons) days (solar, radiant) the months (lunar, feminine, reflective) etc., reliably unfolds the prophetic symbolism of these times, these numbers. Words, letters and numbers are all symbols. The things of creation are symbols the key to which is in Scripture. In God's communication there is a wealth of spiritual application as these symbols are revealed when we are faithfully keeping His Word. Nevertheless, for me, Fairbairn certainly doesn't dissolve the expectation that when all is said and done we will discover what is written will have proven to be numerically exact in fulfillment.

Just as we exist simultaneously in several dimensions, spirit, soul and body, I believe it is important to be open to Preterist, Historicist, Idealist (or, Symbolic,) and Futurist testimonies of what they view. Corrected, they all have contributions to make. As we enter the Age of Tabernacles in which the saints reign, they are going to be increasingly revealed in the power of the Spirit. After the future Millennium I expect a greater coming of us with the Lord in such glory that space and matter won't even appear for the glory of it. While I see Matthew 24 as fulfilled in 70 AD, I see the Book of Revelation as something else, even beyond strictly prophecy. For one thing, it is a kind of software that conditions the mind to better perceive in accordance with the Spirit of God. If you want to understand what is happening as the kingdom of God collides with and swallows up the kingdoms of men, repeatedly read the Book of the Revelation.

It is extremely unlikely you can study enough to begin to prophecy what is just about to take place as one here seemed to assume; but, you can through prayer, obedience and searching scripture seek the Lord's face, and so enter into an intimate walk with Him. Prophecy is not a result of Scripture knowledge. It is a result of the inworked character of Christ and the Holy Spirit pleased to settle down in you. God loves to reveal Himself. He delights to be seen and admired. He desires our worship. While revelation breaks through from the beginning, the last seen at the first, as we mature, continuing in His presence, we will undoubtedly prophecy.

« Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 08:38:52 AM by reFORMer »

Logged

I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program! JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!! MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

It is extremely unlikely you can study enough to begin to prophecy what is just about to take place as one here seemed to assume

That would be me.

Maybe not, but I'm going to keep trying. Daniel says his book is sealed until the end times. So, if we are in the end times, it should start to make sense to us as we see it unfold in the world.

Quote

but, you can through prayer, obedience and searching scripture seek the Lord's face, and so enter into an intimate walk with Him. Prophecy is not a result of Scripture knowledge. It is a result of the inworked character of Christ and the Holy Spirit pleased to settle down in you. God loves to reveal Himself. He delights to be seen and admired. He desires our worship. While revelation breaks through from the beginning, the last seen at the first, as we mature, continuing in His presence, we will undoubtedly prophecy.

I agree with this, too. But, if he has written down a blueprint of end times events, I might as well try to read it and understand it, if possible. I'll just keep doing it, for now. It's not like I am receiving any personal revelation that contradicts what [I think] I'm reading. But, these books are hard to read. One has to keep working at them.

It seems we shouldn't equate modern Israeli's with ancient Israelites. Where is there something in Scripture stating "Jacob" means the modern day Jews? Jacob was called at least three names: Jacob, Israel, and Jeshurun. (I wish you'd help me remember his other name.) When I seek the meaning of "Jacob" I understand it is what Israel was called before the transfiguration brought by God when He wrestled with him all the night through. I consider it (Jacob) to be the man of God in his incarnated human (born of Adam) nature.

(I wanted to post earlier that Edom is spelled the same as Adam. Edom represent the nation according to the flesh as Adam is the man of flesh.)

But...how am I to accept the ubiquitous "Jacob's Trouble" to mean the about to be arriving, "Modern Jewry's Tribulation?" The verse isn't forthcoming.

Logged

I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program! JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!! MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!