i punched some numbers on an upcoming MEGA, and came up with a PROFIT of $20,000
That's TWENTY THOUSAND DOLLARS.

Even if this IS in keeping with GS guidelines, isn't it JUST WRONG ?

There is no reason to spend any money on any of those things if you don't want to.
You would get your smilie regardless.

But, from a personal standpoint, all the more reason I would sign the log and get out of there as fast as possible.

you're totally correct.

but it still upsets me.
there will be hundreds of cachers going for the whole package, and i'm betting that they would be SHOCKED if they knew that they were being overcharged, just so the event organizers can walk away with pockets full of money.
We tend to be a trusting group of people. Especially when you think of the events hosts as your friends.

i punched some numbers on an upcoming MEGA, and came up with a PROFIT of $20,000
That's TWENTY THOUSAND DOLLARS.

Even if this IS in keeping with GS guidelines, isn't it JUST WRONG ?

- sponsors Who give prizes? You're gonna complain that you get free stuff? I'm sure they'll let you pay the prize you win. Or they provide a BBQ, or Food, or place for you to get out of the rain? Fine, then be hungry and get wet.
- geocoin sales We are making some coins up. If we sell them ALL at one event, then we might-might make enough to cover the cost of the propane, and the coins we gave away. The rest of that cost is the cost of the coin. No one is making you bu coins at events. I don't.
- pathtag sales Again-not everyone is into pathtags. You don't have to buy them at events unless you want them.
- tee-shirt sales see the above two posts...- meal tickets OK. YOU host an event, and provide a free steak dinner. You don't want to pay for a meal, bring PB&J.- donations It costs money to put on large events. Venue rental, propane for a BBQ, food, prizes. This money will most likely be going back into the geocaching community.- raffles See all the above posts.

Unless there are vendors present, I'll bet the money goes bcak to the geocaching community. At our event last year, we had a FREE BBQ, and also FREE hotdogs at the CITO the next day, we gave away tons of prizes. I myself donated a years PM. We had a cacher pay for propane for a BBQ out of his pocket. We had companies like Landsharkz donate stuff, we managed to give away 4 GPSr's. We also had one prize that we charged for the tickets. It took a lot of work to do so we recovered cost. ALL of this for free this year. We had an optional donation, and took in a bit of money. We would have made more if we went to work that day and donated a day's paycheck. We also needed money to run our registered non profit club. Fee's to the government, pay for a website etc. To be fair we had ONE vendor, who was from out of town. It was better, because that's stuff we wanted anyway, and we saved money by not paying for shipping. No-ones making you pay, you can just show up and find caches. But you do have to pay for extras, and that's true for everything. The fancy car costs more. The name brand clothes cost more.

So really who is profiting? the geocaching community as a whole is profiting....got a problem with that?

but it still upsets me.
there will be hundreds of cachers going for the whole package, and i'm betting that they would be SHOCKED if they knew that they were being overcharged, just so the event organizers can walk away with pockets full of money.
We tend to be a trusting group of people. Especially when you think of the events hosts as your friends.

That may be the case sometImes-there are Bad people out There. But those peopLe are outnumbered by the good people. Our geocaching club can't do that-we have to file taxes, we have to ALL numbers available to the government, and to ANY member of the club. There are people who fake numbers, and they get caught. And I'm curious-how much would you pay for a geocoin for the 2013 caching event? $5? $10? $20? They will pay $8 per coin, and sell them for $15 per coin, to make up for the ones they give away, and don't sell.(A yearly coin is only desireable for that year...after that it become less valuable. Unless it's like a MOUN10bike coin)

Maybe you should look at what you pay retail...You can go to a restaurant and pay $10 for something....The staff might get a 50% discount, and they are still making money from the staff. It probably costs $1.50-$2 for the burger, fries, and drink you pay $10 for.

i punched some numbers on an upcoming MEGA, and came up with a PROFIT of $20,000
That's TWENTY THOUSAND DOLLARS.

Even if this IS in keeping with GS guidelines, isn't it JUST WRONG ?

- sponsors Who give prizes? You're gonna complain that you get free stuff? I'm sure they'll let you pay the prize you win. Or they provide a BBQ, or Food, or place for you to get out of the rain? Fine, then be hungry and get wet.
- geocoin sales We are making some coins up. If we sell them ALL at one event, then we might-might make enough to cover the cost of the propane, and the coins we gave away. The rest of that cost is the cost of the coin. No one is making you bu coins at events. I don't.
- pathtag sales Again-not everyone is into pathtags. You don't have to buy them at events unless you want them.
- tee-shirt sales see the above two posts...- meal tickets OK. YOU host an event, and provide a free steak dinner. You don't want to pay for a meal, bring PB&J.- donations It costs money to put on large events. Venue rental, propane for a BBQ, food, prizes. This money will most likely be going back into the geocaching community.- raffles See all the above posts.

Unless there are vendors present, I'll bet the money goes bcak to the geocaching community. At our event last year, we had a FREE BBQ, and also FREE hotdogs at the CITO the next day, we gave away tons of prizes. I myself donated a years PM. We had a cacher pay for propane for a BBQ out of his pocket. We had companies like Landsharkz donate stuff, we managed to give away 4 GPSr's. We also had one prize that we charged for the tickets. It took a lot of work to do so we recovered cost. ALL of this for free this year. We had an optional donation, and took in a bit of money. We would have made more if we went to work that day and donated a day's paycheck. We also needed money to run our registered non profit club. Fee's to the government, pay for a website etc. To be fair we had ONE vendor, who was from out of town. It was better, because that's stuff we wanted anyway, and we saved money by not paying for shipping. No-ones making you pay, you can just show up and find caches. But you do have to pay for extras, and that's true for everything. The fancy car costs more. The name brand clothes cost more.

So really who is profiting? the geocaching community as a whole is profiting....got a problem with that?

It sounds like you put on a really nice event and that any extra funds would go back into the caching community.
This is what most cachers would expect.

It sounds like you put on a really nice event and that any extra funds would go back into the caching community.
This is what most cachers would expect.
So......it looks like yours is not the event i'm speaking of.

It sounds like you put on a really nice event and that any extra funds would go back into the caching community.
This is what most cachers would expect.
So......it looks like yours is not the event i'm speaking of.

Please don't get mad at me, but it sounds like we're making excuses for the event hosts doing these things.

i'd bet that they wouldn't sell these things if they weren't confident that they would come out ahead.
and, no, i DON'T have to buy these things, but hundreds of TRUSTING cachers DO.

And we're 'dancing' around my questions here.
anyone care to take a shot at them?

These ones?

EXMAN, on 09 June 2013 - 03:46 PM, said:

But my questions are
- is it in keeping with GS guidelines?
- do you think 'Joe cacher' would be OK with it if he knew?

As for the guidelines regarding events, you are allowed to charge for stuff like food, shirts, coins, whatnot. And I'm sure-your vies or mine- if it get to the point where they say they'll charge $20 for a burger or $50 for a coin or some other outrageous prices then GC might step in. But as long as you don't have to pay to attend it will remain. And you might bring up registration fees; Those can be charged-you pay you get a bag of SWAG, maybe reduced rates at a hotel, or coupons for restaurants, maybe get a coin, or meal ticket. You don't pay, you still can attend, just not get that stuff.

As for "Joe cacher" Well I thinks most serious and long time cachers know what it costs ( about) for coins and stuff like that, and they either don't care, are they believe prices are fair.

Is it in keeping with GS guidelines for an event to end up being VERY profitable for those holding the event?

<snip>

i punched some numbers on an upcoming MEGA, and came up with a PROFIT of $20,000
That's TWENTY THOUSAND DOLLARS.

Even if this IS in keeping with GS guidelines, isn't it JUST WRONG ?

Yes, if event organizers are lining their pockets as payment for the hard work that goes into planning a mega event it is wrong.
Care to provide some back up support to your claims, and document where your numbers come from, including your intimate awareness of all of the event expenses?

Please don't get mad at me, but it sounds like we're making excuses for the event hosts doing these things.

i'd bet that they wouldn't sell these things if they weren't confident that they would come out ahead.
and, no, i DON'T have to buy these things, but hundreds of TRUSTING cachers DO.

And we're 'dancing' around my questions here.
anyone care to take a shot at them?

These ones?

EXMAN, on 09 June 2013 - 03:46 PM, said:

But my questions are
- is it in keeping with GS guidelines?
- do you think 'Joe cacher' would be OK with it if he knew?

As for the guidelines regarding events, you are allowed to charge for stuff like food, shirts, coins, whatnot. And I'm sure-your vies or mine- if it get to the point where they say they'll charge $20 for a burger or $50 for a coin or some other outrageous prices then GC might step in. But as long as you don't have to pay to attend it will remain. And you might bring up registration fees; Those can be charged-you pay you get a bag of SWAG, maybe reduced rates at a hotel, or coupons for restaurants, maybe get a coin, or meal ticket. You don't pay, you still can attend, just not get that stuff.

As for "Joe cacher" Well I thinks most serious and long time cachers know what it costs ( about) for coins and stuff like that, and they either don't care, are they believe prices are fair.

it sounds like you're saying that there is NO accountability and unless GS thinks that you're obviously ripping people off, they're not going to get involved.
I don't like it.
It leaves us wide open to people that are more interested in making a profit than they are with the game of geocaching and the geocachers that play it.

When we go to a meet and greet at a local pub with our local geo group, we KNOW that noone is walking away with a pocket full of money.....and when we go to other events whether they be county, state or national, most cachers are thinking it the same.
Anything that we're charged for, we assume is priced to cover only the expenses of the event.
NOT OVERPRICED so that someone can make a profit.

Is it in keeping with GS guidelines for an event to end up being VERY profitable for those holding the event?

<snip>

i punched some numbers on an upcoming MEGA, and came up with a PROFIT of $20,000
That's TWENTY THOUSAND DOLLARS.

Even if this IS in keeping with GS guidelines, isn't it JUST WRONG ?

Yes, if event organizers are lining their pockets as payment for the hard work that goes into planning a mega event it is wrong.
Care to provide some back up support to your claims, and document where your numbers come from, including your intimate awareness of all of the event expenses?

are YOU the person that i would go to with that info if i were trying to get it resolved?

Why can't we all just ADMIT that if this is happening IT IS WRONG.
AND then try to have a reasonable discussion about it.
Maybe even discuss how we can prevent it from happening.

Is it in keeping with GS guidelines for an event to end up being VERY profitable for those holding the event?

<snip>

i punched some numbers on an upcoming MEGA, and came up with a PROFIT of $20,000
That's TWENTY THOUSAND DOLLARS.

Even if this IS in keeping with GS guidelines, isn't it JUST WRONG ?

Yes, if event organizers are lining their pockets as payment for the hard work that goes into planning a mega event it is wrong.
Care to provide some back up support to your claims, and document where your numbers come from, including your intimate awareness of all of the event expenses?

are YOU the person that i would go to with that info if i were trying to get it resolved?

Why can't we all just ADMIT that if this is happening IT IS WRONG.
AND then try to have a reasonable discussion about it.
Maybe even discuss how we can prevent it from happening.

I'll neither admit nor deny that it's happening. I will challenge your assumption that it's happening until I see some better documentation, not just your broad brush accusations on a public forum. I've planned lots of events professionally, and have a pretty good idea of what happens behind the scenes. And I was the co-chair of GeoWoodstock V one of the first Mega events ever.

are YOU the person that i would go to with that info if i were trying to get it resolved?

Why can't we all just ADMIT that if this is happening IT IS WRONG.
AND then try to have a reasonable discussion about it.
Maybe even discuss how we can prevent it from happening.

Go to the email I gave you with that info...
While I did not say it was wrong in those words, I DID say there a bad people out there who do this kind of thing....
A reasonable discussion? I can only answer for myself...
Prevent it? The only foolproof way is to ban events. They can make all the rules they want, but things get by. Always have, always will.

Oh and the comment about going to the pub? I can buy 5oz of alcohol there, for the same price I can but the whole bottle retail. They pay less than retail. They are still making profit...but it's ok because we know they do? or because it's not geocaching?

Say in the future geocaching grows much, much larger than it is today. Someone see's the market to travel to different cities and host events in them. Is it wrong for them to make money? If so how would it be different then any person who sells LnL's, ammo cans, bison tubes, and geocaching,com branded merchandise?

i punched some numbers on an upcoming MEGA, and came up with a PROFIT of $20,000
That's TWENTY THOUSAND DOLLARS.

Do you have ALL the numbers? There may be a lot of expense that are not obvious.

No i don't

Trust me, there are tons of expenses you haven't accounted for or have underestimated. I was part of the organizing committee for a Mega near here last year. When we got together to plan the event, I was shocked by how many expenses I had never considered. Some of these include porta-potties and hand-washing stations for the camping area, transportation for satellite events (like hiking trips), security, and various other equipment rentals.

If there's any profit at all, I doubt it's on the order of tens of thousands of dollars. Naturally, the organizers will budget in such a way that they won't have to pay for unexpected costs out of their own pockets. This means that, unless there are a lot of unexpected costs that eat it up, there will usually be some money left over. With the Mega series that our Mega was part of, any such excess money is provided to the hosts of the next one (it moves around western Canada). Whether this happens or not, the organizers have most likely invested quite a bit of their own time and money in setting it up and running it anyway, so what's wrong with compensating them for their efforts?

Quote

But my questions are
- is it in keeping with GS guidelines?
- do you think 'Joe cacher' would be OK with it if he knew?

Is it in keeping with the guidelines? The relevant line from the guidelines would be "In return for publishing your Mega-Event cache, Groundspeak asks that pricing reflects the cost to host the event." There isn't any evidence of a Mega actually making a profit on the order of $20,000, but if one did, that wouldn't seem to fit with the guideline.

Would 'Joe Cacher' be OK with it if he knew? If there really was a Mega that made that kind of profit, no, Joe probably wouldn't be thrilled to hear about it. However, the type of person that invests so much time and effort in putting on such an event usually isn't the type that would knowingly gouge their fellow cachers. Why would they want to risk being labelled as the cacher that fleeced local and visiting cachers?

Sure, on the face of it, registration fees for Megas do look a bit steep. However, if you knew all that was really going on behind the scenes, you might not have as much of a problem with them.

Would 'Joe Cacher' be OK with it if he knew? If there really was a Mega that made that kind of profit, no, Joe probably wouldn't be thrilled to hear about it. However, the type of person that invests so much time and effort in putting on such an event usually isn't the type that would knowingly gouge their fellow cachers. Why would they want to risk being labelled as the cacher that fleeced local and visiting cachers?

Is it in keeping with GS guidelines for an event to end up being VERY profitable for those holding the event?

<snip>

i punched some numbers on an upcoming MEGA, and came up with a PROFIT of $20,000
That's TWENTY THOUSAND DOLLARS.

Even if this IS in keeping with GS guidelines, isn't it JUST WRONG ?

Yes, if event organizers are lining their pockets as payment for the hard work that goes into planning a mega event it is wrong.
Care to provide some back up support to your claims, and document where your numbers come from, including your intimate awareness of all of the event expenses?

are YOU the person that i would go to with that info if i were trying to get it resolved?

Why can't we all just ADMIT that if this is happening IT IS WRONG.
AND then try to have a reasonable discussion about it.
Maybe even discuss how we can prevent it from happening.

I'll neither admit nor deny that it's happening. I will challenge your assumption that it's happening until I see some better documentation, not just your broad brush accusations on a public forum. I've planned lots of events professionally, and have a pretty good idea of what happens behind the scenes. And I was the co-chair of GeoWoodstock V one of the first Mega events ever.

Why can't we all just ADMIT that IF this is happening IT IS WRONG.
AND then try to have a reasonable discussion about it.
Maybe even discuss how we can prevent it from happening.

I don't think Groundspeak gives a frog's flipper how much the organizers MIGHT make on side sales.

Charging you to attend is one thing.

Charging for OPTIONAL goodies is another.

If I want the coin and the price seems fair, I buy one...if not, I don't (and maybe they are stuck with 500 of them).
If I want the T-shirt and the price seems fair, I buy one...if not, I don't (and maybe they are stuck with 500 of them).
If I want the offered dinner menu...and the price seems fair, I buy a meal ticket...if not, I don't (and maybe they are stuck with 500 pounds of unsold steaks).

I would like to think that any actual profits are given to a charity or farmed back into the local economy somehow.
In any case, if the organizers DO make a profit, there will probably be a repeat event next year, and another smilie to be gained.

are YOU the person that i would go to with that info if i were trying to get it resolved?

Why can't we all just ADMIT that if this is happening IT IS WRONG.
AND then try to have a reasonable discussion about it.
Maybe even discuss how we can prevent it from happening.

Go to the email I gave you with that info...
While I did not say it was wrong in those words, I DID say there a bad people out there who do this kind of thing....
A reasonable discussion? I can only answer for myself...
Prevent it? The only foolproof way is to ban events. They can make all the rules they want, but things get by. Always have, always will.

Oh and the comment about going to the pub? I can buy 5oz of alcohol there, for the same price I can but the whole bottle retail. They pay less than retail. They are still making profit...but it's ok because we know they do? or because it's not geocaching?

Say in the future geocaching grows much, much larger than it is today. Someone see's the market to travel to different cities and host events in them. Is it wrong for them to make money? If so how would it be different then any person who sells LnL's, ammo cans, bison tubes, and geocaching,com branded merchandise?

If you sent me an email, i didn't get it.

When we go to the pub to buy a beer we KNOW that they're making a profit.
When we go to an event, the average cacher assumes that NO ONE is making a profit.

It sounds like we need to inform cachers that, if it's not ALREADY happening, they can EXPECT that in the future, most major events will be held by FOR PROFIT event organizers.

Is it in keeping with GS guidelines for an event to end up being VERY profitable for those holding the event?

<snip>

i punched some numbers on an upcoming MEGA, and came up with a PROFIT of $20,000
That's TWENTY THOUSAND DOLLARS.

Even if this IS in keeping with GS guidelines, isn't it JUST WRONG ?

Yes, if event organizers are lining their pockets as payment for the hard work that goes into planning a mega event it is wrong.
Care to provide some back up support to your claims, and document where your numbers come from, including your intimate awareness of all of the event expenses?

are YOU the person that i would go to with that info if i were trying to get it resolved?

Why can't we all just ADMIT that if this is happening IT IS WRONG.
AND then try to have a reasonable discussion about it.
Maybe even discuss how we can prevent it from happening.

I'll neither admit nor deny that it's happening. I will challenge your assumption that it's happening until I see some better documentation, not just your broad brush accusations on a public forum. I've planned lots of events professionally, and have a pretty good idea of what happens behind the scenes. And I was the co-chair of GeoWoodstock V one of the first Mega events ever.

Why can't we all just ADMIT that IF this is happening IT IS WRONG.
AND then try to have a reasonable discussion about it.
Maybe even discuss how we can prevent it from happening.

I don't think Groundspeak gives a frog's flipper how much the organizers MIGHT make on side sales.

Charging you to attend is one thing.

Charging for OPTIONAL goodies is another.

If I want the coin and the price seems fair, I buy one...if not, I don't (and maybe they are stuck with 500 of them).
If I want the T-shirt and the price seems fair, I buy one...if not, I don't (and maybe they are stuck with 500 of them).
If I want the offered dinner menu...and the price seems fair, I buy a meal ticket...if not, I don't (and maybe they are stuck with 500 pounds of unsold steaks).

I would like to think that any actual profits are given to a charity or farmed back into the local economy somehow.
In any case, if the organizers DO make a profit, there will probably be a repeat event next year, and another smilie to be gained.

I for one, and i'm sure i'm not alone, have bought the coin, the Tee-shirt, the raffle tickets etc....
because i wanted to help pay for expenses. If i had known i was lining someone's pockets, i NEVER would have bought them.
NOW i know better, but that's not good enough. EVERYONE needs to know.

If someone opens a web site and starts selling geocoins, we know he's doing it to make a profit.
If event organizers are in it for the money, they need to be up-front about it.
THEN we're informed, and we can make INFORMED decisions about buying all the crap.

We're being cheated.
we're buying your crap, thinking that we're helping out. but we're being cheated.
and if you're in it for the money, you've got some pretty BIG stones to get a hundred people to 'volunteer' to help you make money. Who do you think you are? GS ?

Is it in keeping with GS guidelines for an event to end up being VERY profitable for those holding the event?

<snip>

i punched some numbers on an upcoming MEGA, and came up with a PROFIT of $20,000
That's TWENTY THOUSAND DOLLARS.

Even if this IS in keeping with GS guidelines, isn't it JUST WRONG ?

Yes, if event organizers are lining their pockets as payment for the hard work that goes into planning a mega event it is wrong.
Care to provide some back up support to your claims, and document where your numbers come from, including your intimate awareness of all of the event expenses?

are YOU the person that i would go to with that info if i were trying to get it resolved?

Why can't we all just ADMIT that if this is happening IT IS WRONG.
AND then try to have a reasonable discussion about it.
Maybe even discuss how we can prevent it from happening.

I'll neither admit nor deny that it's happening. I will challenge your assumption that it's happening until I see some better documentation, not just your broad brush accusations on a public forum. I've planned lots of events professionally, and have a pretty good idea of what happens behind the scenes. And I was the co-chair of GeoWoodstock V one of the first Mega events ever.

Why can't we all just ADMIT that IF this is happening IT IS WRONG.
AND then try to have a reasonable discussion about it.
Maybe even discuss how we can prevent it from happening.

We're being cheated.
we're buying your crap, thinking that we're helping out. but we're being cheated.
and if you're in it for the money, you've got some pretty BIG stones to get a hundred people to 'volunteer' to help you make money. Who do you think you are? GS ?

And we're done.

As a forum moderator, I am not going to tolerate unfounded mudslinging at hardworking organizers of large-scale events hosted for our enjoyment. If the OP cannot listen to the voices of experience talk about the many expenses involved in these undertakings, it's not much of a discussion.

There are no facts, no proof adduced here. If the OP has such proof, he should contact Groundspeak directly, as for-profit events are not published. But for sure, don't start another thread like this one.