Myself and a Staff person have been working under this Mgr who is less than stellar. This Mgr has a bad temper and has a habit of making her Staff feel stupid and worthless. She is bipolar so you never know what youíre going to get. She treats people under her like trash. However, she is smart enough to be super kind and accommodating to people above her so she looks good. My Staff person is at the verge of a nervous breakdown due to the constant psychological and verbal abuse this Mgr puts her through. She doesnít do it as much with me because Iím a Senior person but Iíve been on the receiving end of it plenty of times. I wonít go into specifics. Iím sure weíve all had bad Mgrs.

My Staff person loves the company, loves her job, but can no longer take the abuse of our direct Mgr. She has told me she is ready to go to Human Resources or quit her job. I suggested she go to the Director of our group and leave HR out of it. I also advised her that this is a risk for her to take but I understand her motives. This abuse has been going on for four long years and I have to admit Iíve had thoughts of ratting on our Mgr on a regular basis or just confronting her. I have not done so because I also love my job and the company, and donít want to risk losing it. In addition, having seen our Mgr lose her temper, I can only imagine how she would take a direct approach.

What advise do you Corporate types who have had similar experiences have for my poor Staff person? Should she go to HR? Or should she go above our Mgr. to the Director and see if it can be resolved this way? Our Director is a much better people-person who has an open door policy. But he also loves our Mgr. so we are unsure how to proceed. What are the risks?

The risk? Being labelled a problem and being marginalized/fired/transfered to Siberia.

If others see the problem, I would suggest HR as the first stop, but only after record of specific behaviors (date, time, et al) have been kept for a while . . . . .if no one else does, it it entirely a she said/she said thing . . . the manager will likely win that one.

So, ask yourself - "what would I like to see happen?" and "what do I expect to happen?"

If the answer to these two questions is not the same, then proceed with caution.

If you go to Director to complain about Mgr, what do you expect is going to happen?Mgr gets fired or transferred is the only acceptable solution. Anything other than that - Mgr is likely to hold a grudge and haunt you forever.

Unless you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Mgr is as bad as you claim, the Director will just think this is an employee complaining. So, if you decide to proceed, do so only if you can document the incidents of bad behavior.

Document everything (ie. behavior, treatment, etc). Go straight to HR. Do not try to go up the chain of command to someone above her. HR is there for reasons just like this.

Agree and I would approach HR for support, coaching, ideas and perhaps even team building support. By doing this you will flag the issue without pointing fingers. Seeking support from HR is your first step.

Document everything (ie. behavior, treatment, etc). Go straight to HR. Do not try to go up the chain of command to someone above her. HR is there for reasons just like this.

Spot on. She is a bully. Check out this site for info: http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/ It hasn't been updated since 2006, as the author died. Also, there is a useful book called Dignity at Work-it is UK orientated, so the legal side will not be the same.

It is also worth seeing your doctor to get checked out for signs of anxiety/ depression-these can be the basis of a legal claim against your employer. And they will not want that.

I'll repeat the same refrain. Document everything and go straight to HR. Larger companies will have very specific rules for dealing with this kind of thing. If you work for a smaller company things may get a little more sticky but you should at least get the complaint on record.

Do others get the same treatment? Any chance someone else has filed a similar complaint? That could go a long way in a case like this.

It is always good to try and go to the Director first if possible, although going straight to HR is acceptable. I guess it all depends an how you feel about your Director.

As has been said before, documentation is key. Witnesses are important, but I don't think that will be a big problem if the two of you are willing to give the same stories. If you have others that are willing to step up it would be even better.

With that being said, it all comes down to you're management and HR what the outcome of this situation is. I have seen I situation where I work that was handled very badly and causes problems to this day. 10 employees went to HR about another employee that they felt was unsafe and putting them in danger and also causing a hostile work environment. The employee that was doing this basically got off scott free and ended up feeling invincible after the incident. The company in actually created a bigger monster by doing nothing.

This is a bit callous, but the staff person is the one it really bothers. Let her to to HR and complain. If there are negative ramifications then she is the one without a job. Since it sound like she is headed that way otherwise it might not really be such a bad thing for her.

I agree with going to HR. The chain of command will be mostly interested in not causing a fuss. You are not likely to see a good solution.

While it's true that HR DOES act more often to support the compnay than the employee, if you can make a case that the bad manager is damaging the company, either directly or indirectly (as in causing a likely suit), protecting the company can very easily change into deep-sixing the offending manager . . . . . this is what the documentation is for -- going to HR is like a mini-lawsuit.

Document everything (ie. behavior, treatment, etc). Go straight to HR. Do not try to go up the chain of command to someone above her. HR is there for reasons just like this.

Exactly. HR has to follow their process which usually includes maintaining confidentiality and protecting the employee against retaliation. HR is also there to protect the company from potential liability against lawsuits brought by employees regarding manager behavior and hostile work environment.

All of this. Document everything - go back and start putting together dates, times, potential witnesses (only direct observation), all the detail you can think of. You must demonstrate a pattern of behavior. In CA you are protected from retaliation (in theory) and it is an employee friendly state. HR knows this and knows the due process. If it's a 'great' company, this type of behavior should not be tolerated. Four years? Really? Not such a great company then if employees feel they can't raise this issue...

In my company it was the number one HR guy who was the problem. He went off on a couple of friends of mine. I happened to know that another VP witnessed one such event. I also happened to run into said VP one day with no one around. I have some cred with this person and told him in no uncertain terms that if this guy ever went off on me there was going some repercussions to the company, 'great' or not. (I used to volunteer at the Women's Legal Clinic in LA - so I know what to do and what the key words are...).

I don't know if this conversation had any impact whatsoever, but in a couple of months things came to a head and the guy left the company.

Good luck!

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Don't argue with an idiot; people might not be able to tell the difference - Anonymous

My thought was, the HR route is the most effective but it burns ALL bridges as it hurts the Director as well, which is not a route either me or my Staff person want to take. In either case, one the Mgr finds out it burns that bridge. My hope is my Staff person goes to the Director and the Dir agrees to work with the Mgr to improve her behavior without actually letting her know the Staff person ratted on her. Even if there was doubt in her mind, that's enough to prevent retaliation. In addition, going to the Director might show that my Staff person wants to improve things and not fire anybody.

It is not only my Staff and I who have noticed the Mgr's. behavior. Many people have including other Mgrs in other locations. So this may be a good "heads up" for the Director to do something.

Yes it has been going on for four years. My Staff person and I have kept our mouths shut because we are do not like to be the one who squealed or be labeled a whiner/complainer.

The advice from all is greatly appreciated though so keep it coming. Anybody else with first hand experience in this matter?

There is zero doubt in my mind that this is an HR issue. How you get to HR is the question.... or not.

If you're advising your staff member and stepping away, send them to HR. If you're staying involved, approach the Director with your staff member. Explain the situation without sugar coating and give your director the opportunity to invite the conversation with HR. Now your director is part of a difficult solution and not just another interview candidate if an investigation occurs.

If HR should not be involved, your Director should be the one to convince you why.

My thought was, the HR route is the most effective but it burns ALL bridges as it hurts the Director as well, which is not a route either me or my Staff person want to take. In either case, one the Mgr finds out it burns that bridge. My hope is my Staff person goes to the Director and the Dir agrees to work with the Mgr to improve her behavior without actually letting her know the Staff person ratted on her. Even if there was doubt in her mind, that's enough to prevent retaliation. In addition, going to the Director might show that my Staff person wants to improve things and not fire anybody.

It is not only my Staff and I who have noticed the Mgr's. behavior. Many people have including other Mgrs in other locations. So this may be a good "heads up" for the Director to do something.

Yes it has been going on for four years. My Staff person and I have kept our mouths shut because we are do not like to be the one who squealed or be labeled a whiner/complainer.

The advice from all is greatly appreciated though so keep it coming. Anybody else with first hand experience in this matter?

Wow. Is it your company's culture to label people as whiner/complainers or squealers when they make a legitimate complaint? If so, it's not a great company. This is a legitimate business issue. You have a right to come to work and not be abused.

As a manager if an employee came to me with a complaint about another manager (regardless of hierarchy), it is my responsibility to bring in HR immediately and address the issue in a timely fashion with discretion and respect. It is HR's job to ensure that there is no retaliation - perceived or otherwise - and that confidentiality is preserved. When dealing with such an emotional person whackjob, it's best to document events before you talk to anybody so as to be seen as rational and objective.

I appreciate the fact that it's not my situation and again I wish you luck in whatever path you take.

Disclaimer: None of the above applies to ConPilot1. Just being clear.

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Don't argue with an idiot; people might not be able to tell the difference - Anonymous

I have dealt with this on several occasions; on behalf of folks that report to me. As a manager, one of my responsibilities is to ensure a safe work place for my folks. What you describe is referred to as a hostile work environment. Seems silly in the corporate world, but it happens quite often. I would guess that your company has work guidelines that all employees must adhere to. They are referred to Business Conduct Guidelines in my company.

In my experience, the only course of action is for your employee to go directly to HR and formally submit the issue. If this individual treats more than your employee in this manner; it is a company issue. If this individual treats just your employee in this manner; it's even worse as she is being targeted. Either way, it is unacceptable.

What sucks is that many managers/directors and above think corporate America is the military; and all shall bow down to the next person above them. Dueches like you are describing take advantage of that.

There is zero doubt in my mind that this is an HR issue. How you get to HR is the question.... or not.

If you're advising your staff member and stepping away, send them to HR. If you're staying involved, approach the Director with your staff member. Explain the situation without sugar coating and give your director the opportunity to invite the conversation with HR. Now your director is part of a difficult solution and not just another interview candidate if an investigation occurs.

If HR should not be involved, your Director should be the one to convince you why.

+1

My Staff and I are forming our strategy and creating a case to present to our Dir. I feel confident that the Dir will step in to help in order to prevent the HR approach. If heís as intelligent as I believe he is (all indications are he is as well as being fair), he will understand that the HR step is the next one if this issue is not resolved without us having to say it. I believe that stating specific examples as well as the fact that others within and outside our dept. have noticed and brought up this issue with us (not him), will bring urgency into a resolution. We plan to present our case to the Dir this Friday through a meeting.

I have decided to get involved to bring more weight into it. My Staff deserves that. Itís going to be a huge risk but enough is enough.

Wow. Is it your company's culture to label people as whiner/complainers or squealers when they make a legitimate complaint? If so, it's not a great company. This is a legitimate business issue. You have a right to come to work and not be abused.

I donít mean to imply that.

My Staff and I donít like to complain thatís all. We feel guilty when we call in sick even when we are. Itís just our work ethic to work hard and complain very little. Others will be different.

The bottom line is we like our jobs, we like the people we work for (except this one Mgr we work for directly unfortunately), so we want to keep our jobs. In my opinion, and I see many disagree, running straight to HR is counter-productive unless you have exhausted all possible legal options. Because both my Staff and I respect and like our Dir, we want to give him a chance to help us before making it an embarrassment for him if HR got involved.

Our corporation does have a written policy of required ethical behavior, which protects employees from harassment. Hence I feel when our Dir hears of this news he will be eager to fix it.

I get loud and turn into a complete asshole when the situation warrants it.I get the same thing from the higher-ups, so shit rolls downhill.

Our higher ups do NOT yell and degrade employees. Their standards are much higher, which makes it that much more difficult to have a Mgr (who you know is not getting shit) to verbally and mentally abuse you.

Our higher ups do NOT yell and degrade employees. Their standards are much higher, which makes it that much more difficult to have a Mgr (who you know is not getting shit) to verbally and mentally abuse you.

I do not degrade, neither does my boss. Degrading and getting a little loud is a totally different story.

Mistakes can be very costly in my line of business. I've seen stupid little oversights cost in excess of $50K.

People WILL make mistakes. It is management's responsibility to come up with ways to prevent those mistakes. Saying dont do it again or you are out of here is not effective.

You are correct at that although I disagree with your percentage ratio's. My department probably runs at a near 98% no-mistake rate.However, there is also no amount managerial policies, job documentation, or internal rules that will ever replace good old horse sense, skills, and attentiveness to what you're doing.

My Staff and I donít like to complain thatís all. We feel guilty when we call in sick even when we are. Itís just our work ethic to work hard and complain very little. Others will be different.

The bottom line is we like our jobs, we like the people we work for (except this one Mgr we work for directly unfortunately), so we want to keep our jobs. In my opinion, and I see many disagree, running straight to HR is counter-productive unless you have exhausted all possible legal options. Because both my Staff and I respect and like our Dir, we want to give him a chance to help us before making it an embarrassment for him if HR got involved.

Our corporation does have a written policy of required ethical behavior, which protects employees from harassment. Hence I feel when our Dir hears of this news he will be eager to fix it.

Thanks for explaining. Good luck. Let us know how this turns out.

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Don't argue with an idiot; people might not be able to tell the difference - Anonymous

There are likely significant differences between my Province, and your State, but, as a senior manager in this jurisdiction, this is the proceedure:The aggrieved should approach the HR manager or supervisor immediately senior to the "subject manager" with documented instances of abuse, bullying, harrassment etc.It is necessary to explain that this behaviour has been ongoing, persistant, and unrelenting, and makes the aggrieved feel anxious, fearful, nervous, ill, depressed, etc. making the aggrieved's workplace unhealthy.Document EVERYTHING.It is HR's duty to investigate the complaint, and unlawful for the employer or manager to retaliate.There have been some significant settlements awarded here in some cases, though I'm sure that's not the intended result.Smart superior managers will shortly rectify the problem when made aware, as corportate culture defending such individuals can also be found at fault in actionable cases.

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ďWhere you come from is gone, where you thought you were going to was never there, and where you are is no good unless you can get away from it". Flannery O'Connor.

There have been some significant settlements awarded here in some cases, though I'm sure that's not the intended result.Smart superior managers will shortly rectify the problem when made aware, as corportate culture defending such individuals can also be found at fault in actionable cases.

I'm optimistic that this is what our Dir will do.

Yes, our intention is not to get anyone terminated or get some kind of settlement. We just want it to stop by changing someone's behavior.

I've seen my share of bad bosses but only had 1 myself...a female sexual harrasser. Normally a 22 year old single male wouldn't have issue with this but she was simply vile. She made my life miserable for turning her down. She was a bull dyke man hater to the core but she had no problem with bullying the other drafters and intimidating them into putting out.

What I learned from that 1 bad boss was to keep a ledger of all events. Date, time, situation, outcome, etc. The deeper the list goes, the stronger your leg to stand on. Out of 13 people only myself and one other guy turned her down but all 13 of us got together and reported her to HR because her boss wouldn't buy it. He knew she was a hard ass but refused to believe we were being sexually harrassed and our lives made miserable every day. She ended up getting transferred to somewhere in Nebraska.

As for the other people that I'd witnessed the bad treatment of, I learned that HR is rarely your friend in a large corporation. 2 specific people come to mind where HR simply sided with the managers because it is in their best political interest when dealing with bosses at a particular level. It didn't matter that there were laws protecting these employees from a hostile work environment. And they were being treated very badly. Yelling, screaming, degrading them all in front of the whole department. All these 2 ever did was ask for clarification of what he wanted or simply wanted to do things right. They took pride in their work. HR decided to just fire them rather than document the complaints. No documentation, it never happened. The bigshot company lawyers were given a heads up and advised HR to enter "insubordination" and "refusal to show up to work" in their files. Couldn't even get unemployment insurance and took a while to find new jobs. The company covered it's ass and totally screwed them over.

Sometimes it's better to go to HR, sometimes it's better to go to their superior. It's a crapshoot.

All I know is, the first time something happens, the situation needs to be addressed then and there. When they know you won't tolerate bad treatment, things will change for the better. Otherwise, you become their bitch and their behavior becomes acceptable. The longer you wait, the worse it gets and it may get to the point where you're totally defenseless.

Honestly I think you have the numbers on your side. Corporate politico office shit can get dicey I know. But when it comes down to dollars and doughnuts, if enough credible people back you up on an opinion about a situation I don't think that can be discounted by any of the powers that be.

I think your situation will quiet down there without a big nuclear explosion. sometimes people just need to be confronted with their own bullshit, I call it the Dead Fish Theory. Slap them in the head like a big dead fish and maybe they didn't even realize how they were acting all these years.

It'll all work out in the end. Maybe she'll realize the err of her ways and thank you for it and you guys get all freindly and shit, go out for a social drink after work to talk about it, get drunk and BHITAWTF.

As for the other people that I'd witnessed the bad treatment of, I learned that HR is rarely your friend in a large corporation. 2 specific people come to mind where HR simply sided with the managers because it is in their best political interest when dealing with bosses at a particular level. It didn't matter that there were laws protecting these employees from a hostile work environment. And they were being treated very badly. Yelling, screaming, degrading them all in front of the whole department. All these 2 ever did was ask for clarification of what he wanted or simply wanted to do things right. They took pride in their work. HR decided to just fire them rather than document the complaints. No documentation, it never happened. The bigshot company lawyers were given a heads up and advised HR to enter "insubordination" and "refusal to show up to work" in their files. Couldn't even get unemployment insurance and took a while to find new jobs. The company covered it's ass and totally screwed them over.

Wurd.

Don't ask me how I know

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You are just jealous because the FJR is a better ST than your XX/Sprint/VFR.

Yes, our intention is not to get anyone terminated or get some kind of settlement. We just want it to stop by changing someone's behavior.

IMO it's more likely that if management does act on the complaint(s) they'll just reassign the problem manager somewhere else in the corporation. Or even reassign the employee, if that's the easier solution.

My trust in our Director paid off. After describing the situation regarding our Manager with our Director, as well as forwarding comments made by other Mgrs. outside the Corporate Office to our Director, he was extremely concerned and immediately wanted to rectify the situation. He was especially concerned with the anger management issues with our Mgr. Our Director asked us why we waited so long to speak up. We told him the truth: we are not tattle-tails and just tend to suck it up and do our job.

So our Director gave us two choices: 1) Go directly to HR and have it documented and the behavior is guaranteed to stop immediately. 2) The Director can work directly with the problem Manager to correct the behavior. Option #1 was the fastest but also the most painful. We chose the subtle approach #2 and our Director was happy we went with that.

After that little meeting, within 48 hours we immediately noticed a big improvement in our Mgr's behavior. After two weeks, our Director set up a 2nd meeting to give him an update on our "findings". We told him we were very happy. Our Director then told us not to allow it to revert back to the old way. If problems happen, immediately let him know so it can be corrected immediately. YES!

The Director told us that the standards of Ethical Behavior for our Corporation was very high and the example is set by our CEO, CFO, and VP of Finance. He loves working for them and expect everyone under him to behave accordingly. No harassment of any kind is allowed. Everyone is expected to behave with courtesy and professionalism. Period. Now that's what I'm talking about!

I've seen my share of bad bosses but only had 1 myself...a female sexual harrasser. Normally a 22 year old single male wouldn't have issue with this but she was simply vile. She made my life miserable for turning her down. She was a bull dyke man hater to the core but she had no problem with bullying the other drafters and intimidating them into putting out.

Now that the OP's situation has been resolved, in pretty much the ideal way, I am going to indulge my hijack tendencies a little here.

Do you look extremely feminine, or was she the most inept bull dyke on the planet?

I have never met a bull dyke that made any particular demands for sex...from men. Did you all wear a lot of androgynous clothing at work or how did she get confused on this?

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yeah, THE misanthropist...now featuring grey hair, a mortgage, and a wife

I have vague memories of working in environments where supervisors calling employees assholes would have been unaccepted behaviour, but man...that was years ago.

The last time I actually went in to the office at my work, one of the higher-ups was demanding to know why someone else was such a "whining crybaby of a retard".

I am not saying it's okay...but I have to admit that I'm surprised it would get much of a reaction.

At my previous job, I actually had a superintendent throw his hardhat at me in a rage because I was taking too long to explain my ideas for how we could safely move a train car off a bridge with a crane...it was complicated and I didn't want my guys getting damaged. But it did take more than a minute to get through the instructions, and the Q&A by the guys.

So the super started screaming, and when I motioned for him to wait, he threw his hardhat at me. But they are hard to aim and the wind caught it and blew it off down the bridge anyway.

On the other hand, I have already given notice at my current job, and I definitely did not respect that super. So it's not like I think that kind of behaviour is a good idea.

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yeah, THE misanthropist...now featuring grey hair, a mortgage, and a wife

We are a publicly traded corporate office (white collar people) and our top management look and act extremely professional. They expect nothing less of us at the Staff Level. I have never heard anyone here yell or use any type of cuss word. During lunch time out of the office, a few of my colleagues use it but thatís between close accomplices. Inside the office, ďshitĒ is not even condoned. ďCrapĒ is about as far as it goes. Seriously.

We are a publicly traded corporate office (white collar people) and our top management look and act extremely professional. They expect nothing less of us at the Staff Level. I have never heard anyone here yell or use any type of cuss word. During lunch time out of the office, a few of my colleagues use it but thatís between close accomplices. Inside the office, ďshitĒ is not even condoned. ďCrapĒ is about as far as it goes. Seriously.

Yeah, I get it. I work for both public and private companies depending on the month or year...but am mostly involved in big project construction and the staff would largely be at home in the exercise yard at any medium-security prison.

As a matter of fact one of the carpenters on my last big project was just released after serving time for dismembering a corpse with a chainsaw. He was known around the site as "Chainsaw Dave." I looked him up because I didn't really buy the story...no, it's true.

So I understand these are very different work environments. I am just really used to the level of hostility that occurs in my particular arena.

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yeah, THE misanthropist...now featuring grey hair, a mortgage, and a wife

I worked for a small corporate office (not publicly traded but an LLC), and those people were assholes and bitches. Drank during work hours, took drugs off the clock, cussed and talked about sex all day. Yeah it was always exciting but that gets old after a while and it cuts both ways.