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Topic: My boyfriend is pentecostal how do i get him to respect orthodoxy? (Read 7613 times)

we have been dating for a good amount of time now and i know that his biggest issue is that we dont go to church together, i am not against going w him to a pentecostal church but i actually like my orthodox church but i know he doesnt get it. they do most of the service in greek and they dont cater to those trying to find out about the church, yet i know if he could see what i see, he would understand. he is also very knowledgeable on the bible and i cant go blow for blow w him since i dont know half the stuff he does in regards to the bible.

we have been dating for a good amount of time now and i know that his biggest issue is that we dont go to church together, i am not against going w him to a pentecostal church but i actually like my orthodox church but i know he doesnt get it. they do most of the service in greek and they dont cater to those trying to find out about the church, yet i know if he could see what i see, he would understand. he is also very knowledgeable on the bible and i cant go blow for blow w him since i dont know half the stuff he does in regards to the bible.

Can you take him to another Orthodox Church that uses English and has some written materials he can look at?

i have finally found a church that does focus the majority of the service in english and i spoke to the priest who is young and would love to sit down with him and discuss. i feel like maybe so much time has passed i dont even know if he would be open to the idea anymore.

If you are going to have a future with this gentleman you will have to address this issue of what religion your children will be raised and such. I know Protestants can be just as stubborn as Orthodox Christians. Before you go any further you should lay down the rules. You may have to rethink your whole future all together. Religion can become a barrier to a health marriage.

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Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.

Being raised in a pentecostal house (and my parents still are) I will tell you what I think you should do;

If he is into the shouting during a service "Amen, Preach it Brother!" type of stuff then you need to explain that that sort of outburst is not acceptable in Orthodoxy. There are many flavors of Pentecostal, you need to find out what it is he believes and work from there. I would highlight the mystery of the Orthodox church and not be surprised if he thinks your church is "dead."

Honestly I bet he is likely hoping you will "come to your senses" and go with him. It would not be worth it, don't go to church with him. You need to find out if he is putting up with you attending an Orthodox church in hopes that you will change or whether he is supportive. And if he is into the "headship" stuff he will not allow you to raise your children anything but Pentecostal. He may "compromise" and be married in an Orthodox church and allow your children to be baptized, but he won't convert. He may not understand that you can't marry him in an Orthodox ceremony unless he converts.

No, in the end we are not "all just Christians." Orthodox theology does not abide compromise. And Pentecostals often change their views based upon the "prophecy" of someone.

no he def not someone to yell in church, he is very quiet and calm. he had asked to come to the easter services w my family and i , and i think it would be a good idea, i just wish more was in english bc i know part of the problem is the language barrier for him. i disagree, a christian is a christian and if only orthodox christians are following it the right way then a whole lot of good people are going to hell? i dont believe that, sorry.

He may be a quiet person that attends a church that has the yelling in church and think it is normal.

I am not judging the salvation of another. I can't say that I am "saved," how could I say someone else isn't? But just because he is "Christian" and you are "Christian," doesn't mean you share the same faith.

No matter how much knowledge he may appear to have in regard to scripture you have to bear in mind that does not mean he is knowledgeable Christianity as a whole. I doubt he knows about anything regarding Christianity outside of a very narrow view from his denomination/church.

So, a Pentecostal is alarmed that the church you attend is speaking in a tongue he can't understand? What is this world coming to?

(tongue out of cheek)

I can't really help you much. I can go blow-for-blow with just about anyone on the subject of the Bible, and found out at an early age that such arguments usually do little toward changing a person's mind.

I suppose, with further information I could be of limited help. Most important: What type of pentecostal is he? This is a very wide-ranging sect, with many splinter groups calling themselves by that name, each one with little pet dogmas of their own.

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i disagree, a christian is a christian and if only orthodox christians are following it the right way then a whole lot of good people are going to hell? i dont believe that, sorry.

Again, very important to clarify what type of Pentecostal he is. There is a certain sect that goes beyond heterodox into outright heresy.

« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 05:00:35 PM by FormerReformer »

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"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are." TH White

The book "Holy Week and Easter", compiled by Fr George Papadeas, has all the services from Palm Sunday Evening to the Agape Vespers on Easter Day in side-by-side Greek and English format. It has been in print for nearly 35 years, and should be available at many Greek church bookstores. It's well worth the money.

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we have been dating for a good amount of time now and i know that his biggest issue is that we dont go to church together, i am not against going w him to a pentecostal church but i actually like my orthodox church but i know he doesnt get it. they do most of the service in greek and they dont cater to those trying to find out about the church, yet i know if he could see what i see, he would understand. he is also very knowledgeable on the bible and i cant go blow for blow w him since i dont know half the stuff he does in regards to the bible.

See how things go at the English parish, has he agreed to attend and meet the Priest? Encourage him to learn about your faith, not because you expect him to embrace it if he doesn't want to but because it's important for him to understand it in order to understand you. Our beliefs make us who we are, tell him it is in his interest to learn your beliefs, so that he can understand why you react and behave in certain ways. Likewise learn as much as you can about his faith for the same reason. In this way mutual respect will be cultivated and misunderstandings and conflict will be minimized. Leave the rest up to God, but if he won't even consider learning about your faith and why it's important to you, then it might be better to let him go.

i disagree, a christian is a christian and if only orthodox christians are following it the right way then a whole lot of good people are going to hell? i dont believe that, sorry.

Nenieeee, anyone who was baptized in the name of the Holy Trinity is a Christian. Nevertheless, the Church is one; there are no "different churches" - that's a Protestant fallacy. One is either IN the Church (that is, in the Orthodox Church), or outside of it. So yes, Pentecostals, Baptists, Episcopalians, Roman Catholics and a lot of other people who have been baptized in the name of the Trinity are Christians, but they are not in the Church. We want them all to be in the Church, but it's up to them to join.

We are in the Church because we believe that the Church (=the Orthodox Church) has preserved the true teaching of Christ and the Apostles, while those who are outside of the Church distort this true teaching in various ways. We need to say it out loud in front of those who are outside of the Church, without "sugar-coating" it.

As for who is going to hell - how can we know that? As Quinault has pointed out, none of us can be completely sure about our own salvation, far less about salvation of another human being whose heart we do not know (only God knows the hearts). We want everyone to be saved and we know that in the Church, our salvation is being worked out (even though each of us can at any moment "drop out"). As for those outside of the Church, again, we wish them all well and we wish them all to be saved, and we know that God's grace and mercy are limitless, but "knowing" that Person A will be saved and Person B will go to hell is not for us.

i agree and he is very aware that if we got married i have to be married in an orthodox church and baptise my kids. i know that they are stubborn, but in the end arent we all christians?

It's very common to think that hurtles are easy to overcome when you are young. It's actually a health and innocent mentality but things become difficult once actually experienced or when we are placed into a position that we actually have to decide. That is why I stated to you that you must decide before you go forward. I'll give you an example. Lets say you discuss with him what church your children will go to and you Both decide in The Orthodox church. Things will become more clear because you will both be in agreement. Now if you don't decide now and continue on the path to both churches things can become difficult after you wed. There will be friction when the question arises later. He may be influenced by his peers to pressure you and your children into his religion. After you marry you loose the power of negotiation. You loose the power because he now has what he wanted. If you really love this man and he loves you. You now have the power to manipulate the decision as to which church you will go. The ball is in your court now and you have to choose wisely.

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Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.

I'd be really careful. When my parents met in their twenties, religion wasn't very important for my father. My father was raised Southern Baptist and my mother is a Roman Catholic. Anyway, everything was all fine and dandy during their several years of dating. When they married, he agreed that we could be raised Catholic and Baptist, but then when kids started being born he suddenly refused to let us be baptized as infants. So my mother had this done in secret since he had gone back on his word.

After four kids and religious differences things got ugly fast, and they divorced when I was two years old. Don't take the prospect of raising children in a mixed religious household lightly, because it has taken me almost thirty years of searching and a Master's Degree in Religious Studies to feel as though I've gotten to some sufficient answers. I don't mention the degree to brag or to pretend I have all of the answers, but I feel as though I have finally gotten a lot of them, and perhaps this could have been avoided in a religiously harmonious/homogeneous environment.

There are certain denominations of pentecostals that deny the Trinity and do not baptize "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit". If this is the case, then you will not be able to marry him in the Othodox Church.

Raising children can be difficult because you have to be in agreement on which church your children are baptized into, and you have to be in agreement on the religious instruction the children will receive. It would be real confusing for a child to hear different things from their parents and church. One good example would be going to the Orthodox divine liturgy centered around the Eucharist, only to come home and hear dad say things like "that's not really the Body and Blood of Jesus" and "fermented wine and leavened bread are both unbiblical".

One good example would be going to the Orthodox divine liturgy centered around the Eucharist, only to come home and hear dad say things like "that's not really the Body and Blood of Jesus" and "fermented wine and leavened bread are both unbiblical".

One good example would be going to the Orthodox divine liturgy centered around the Eucharist, only to come home and hear dad say things like "that's not really the Body and Blood of Jesus" and "fermented wine and leavened bread are both unbiblical".

One good example would be going to the Orthodox divine liturgy centered around the Eucharist, only to come home and hear dad say things like "that's not really the Body and Blood of Jesus" and "fermented wine and leavened bread are both unbiblical".

Welcome to my schizophrenic upbringing.

lolz!

What does the z stand for?

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"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

One good example would be going to the Orthodox divine liturgy centered around the Eucharist, only to come home and hear dad say things like "that's not really the Body and Blood of Jesus" and "fermented wine and leavened bread are both unbiblical".

Welcome to my schizophrenic upbringing.

lolz!

What does the z stand for?

"laughing out loud zere?" "laughing out loud zus?" "laughing out like zis?" ...?

I'm sure if you married him then he would consent to have the children raised Orthodox. Pentecostal types are all about "personal religion" as opposed to public observance. They tend not to be as interested in belonging to something officially as believing in something internally.

It probably will make no difference to him what faith his children formally profess (although be careful that he doesn't try to lure them in on the side).

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Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.-- Gustave Flaubert

i have finally found a church that does focus the majority of the service in english and i spoke to the priest who is young and would love to sit down with him and discuss. i feel like maybe so much time has passed i dont even know if he would be open to the idea anymore.

Excellent! Couple of Sundays ago, I was talking to an inquirer at our church. He is a graduate of an evangelical, fundamentalist Protestant bible college. He has been coming to our church because he loves his girlfriend and the girlfriend asked him to come with her. He is now seriously considering becoming a catechumen.

Couple of points you may want to consider and relate to your boyfriend.

1) Between Trinitarian Christians, there are more similarities than differences, especially in core beliefs. It may be better to initially emphasize the similarities than delve on issues like icons, saints, the Theotokos, the liturgy, etc. It should be sufficient to say that our worship and theology are Christ-focused and are based on the Holy Scriptures and the practices of the earliest Church. Just defer to your Priest any questions he may have about the details.

2) One thing that positively affects Christ--focused Protestants is the Orthodox insistence on the real presence of the body and blood in the Eucharist not because any convoluted Western explanation but because He said so, right here in the Bible. As with all other sacraments, we hold the Eucharist or Holy Communion to be a mystery--to accept in faith, and to faithfully partake of as He commanded us to do, again in the Bible.

3) At first glance, Orthodoxy is so different than any Protestant religion that it is best if both of you agree to check it out over a long period of time (at least 6 months) and by attending at a minimum both the Saturday night Great Vespers and the regular Sunday Divine Liturgy. If there is an inquirer's class, it would be good if both of you could attend at the same time. If there are fasts, both of you should try to observe the dietary and prayer aspects. Participate in the feasts and in the after Church meal or coffee hour. Doing a perfunctory check of the Church would be an invitation to future problems.

i disagree, a christian is a christian and if only orthodox christians are following it the right way then a whole lot of good people are going to hell? i dont believe that, sorry.

Who said anything about hell? But if you are Orthodox, you must believe in what the Church teaches... which is that the Orthodox Church is the true Church. The state of mens souls after death is God's business.

BTW, I am formerly charismatic, not too different from pentecostal (I even spoke in tongues), and I converted to the Orthodox Church when I realized what She was: the Church of God.

In answer to your original question, you simply CANNOT get your boyfriend to respect Orthodoxy. There is no amount of persuasion, of rational arguments or even appeal to the beauty of the liturgy or the offices that can do this. Such will only harden his resistance to the Church, especially if you (and I'm not suggesting you do this now) continue to bring up the subject with him and won't stop. All you can do is live and treat him as an Icon of Christ. Pray, light a candle, pray harder, etc.. Respect for the church, let alone conversion to the faith, can only happen by movement of the Spirit within him. I say to you to let it be. It will happen or it won't. Not trying to be a downer about this, but I've been through this situation many times myself and this is the best advice I can follow and give.

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I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

we have been dating for a good amount of time now and i know that his biggest issue is that we dont go to church together, i am not against going w him to a pentecostal church but i actually like my orthodox church but i know he doesnt get it. they do most of the service in greek and they dont cater to those trying to find out about the church, yet i know if he could see what i see, he would understand. he is also very knowledgeable on the bible and i cant go blow for blow w him since i dont know half the stuff he does in regards to the bible.

Well, I see a few problems here.

First, if you have to 'change' your partner to make him acceptable, then you have already acknowledged that he is objectionable in a meaningful way.

Many women do that (just as men have their own failings, which is a long topic as well). They think they can 'fix' a guy to make him perfect, not realizing that he needs to want to be fixed before he can be fixed, and it does not sound like he's all that interested in being fixed by you or the Church. So, you can try all manner of manipulations (which is what you are asking for when you want to find a way to 'get him' to do something), but there is more of a chance that it will not work and, moreover, it shows you have little respect for his free will, which means you will have even less respect for him if you continue on in this relationship and he continues to make decisions you don't like.

Trust me, I have counselled enough couples in bad relationships to know bad signs, and your attitude, while common enough, accounts for part of why the divorce rate is so high.

We don't 'fix people.' They fix themselves of their own free will. If he doesn't want Orthodoxy, then find another man or be willign to give up your faith for his. You can change yourself if you want, though you may not like it in the long run.

No matter how hard you wish or try, you cannot make a shoe to fix if it wasn't made to fit.

The second problem I see is that you don't know your own Faith, since you mention that you can't go 'blow for blow.' If he is serious enough to learn his Faith, and you are not serious, then he will never respect you for your opinions when you have opinions that you cannot explain or defend them. If you expect anyone to take your seriously, then you have to be able to stand up for yourself and not rely on your community, especially if your community is unable to express itself in a way that others can understand.

In a relationship, disrespect or lack of respect is a big source of conflict. If he gets used to looking at you as someone who is ignorant or lazy, then he will eventually treat you that way. This becomes a problem when dealing with other conflicts. He will dismiss your opinions as being ungrounded because he has gotten used to the idea that you believe things you have not thought through.

This has become a problem for us Orthodox, who are often ignorant of our own tradition. I know many Protestants who have encountered so many ignorant Orthodox that they have gotten used to dismissing us all as 'superstitious.' Of course, when they encounter one of us who has taken the time to learn the Faith, they are often shocked, and they become even more shocked when we also know theirs and throw many of their silly beliefs back in their faces (done with kindness and love, no doubt! ).

If you want to have a happy relationship with a man, then you had better crack the books and work with a spiritually-advanced Orthodox Christian who can get your head lined up with your feet. You have your feet in the Church, but your mind is elsewhere. Once you have confidence in what you believe and who you are, then you will be less interested in fixing others to suit your desires.

You will also be happier. Happy people attract other happy people. Confident people attract confident people. You will find God when you study and live your Faith, and you will also find yourself.

about 5 years ago, a girl invited his (non-baptized), non-religious boyfriend to an Orthodox church. She told him "this church is a big part of my life, and if we are going to advance in our relationship, you need to be a part of it." So, she took him to Pascha.

he was baptized, and is now a reader in our church. they are also on their third child.

If you are going to have a future with this gentleman you will have to address this issue of what religion your children will be raised and such. I know Protestants can be just as stubborn as Orthodox Christians. Before you go any further you should lay down the rules. You may have to rethink your whole future all together. Religion can become a barrier to a health marriage.

this is true. my mother was on anti-depressants and went to therepy for years because my dad's mom told her her marrige won't be blessed by God unless it's in a Catholic church. She also sat her down with a book and explained to her how to be a good Catholic wife!

religion can make a marriage sick.......and eventually lead it to failure (they are now devorced)

If you are going to have a future with this gentleman you will have to address this issue of what religion your children will be raised and such. I know Protestants can be just as stubborn as Orthodox Christians. Before you go any further you should lay down the rules. You may have to rethink your whole future all together. Religion can become a barrier to a health marriage.

this is true. my mother was on anti-depressants and went to therepy for years because my dad's mom told her her marrige won't be blessed by God unless it's in a Catholic church. She also sat her down with a book and explained to her how to be a good Catholic wife!

religion can make a marriage sick.......and eventually lead it to failure (they are now devorced)

I agree 100% with what Alveus Lacuna said above!

This is true. People who are very weak mentally can suffer due to the power of suggestion. I've had my own problems with religion in this regard and am, by coincidence also on anti depressants because of it. Be careful who you tie yourself up with, it could kill you in the end.

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Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.-- Gustave Flaubert

I'd be really careful. When my parents met in their twenties, religion wasn't very important for my father. My father was raised Southern Baptist and my mother is a Roman Catholic. Anyway, everything was all fine and dandy during their several years of dating. When they married, he agreed that we could be raised Catholic and Baptist, but then when kids started being born he suddenly refused to let us be baptized as infants. So my mother had this done in secret since he had gone back on his word.

After four kids and religious differences things got ugly fast, and they divorced when I was two years old. Don't take the prospect of raising children in a mixed religious household lightly, because it has taken me almost thirty years of searching and a Master's Degree in Religious Studies to feel as though I've gotten to some sufficient answers. I don't mention the degree to brag or to pretend I have all of the answers, but I feel as though I have finally gotten a lot of them, and perhaps this could have been avoided in a religiously harmonious/homogeneous environment.

I can relate to this.

My mother was raised Catholic, my father Orthodox. When my parents married, they married in the Orthodox Church and had us baptized Orthodox. When I was 9, my parents divorced and my mother became "Born-again" and started attending a Baptist Church.

Thus began what I like to call my "bi-polar religious upbringing."

Since Dad had us every other weekend, every other weekend we were at a different Church being taught very different things. Since we lived with Mom, she was quick to indoctrinate us with the Baptist faith. In her zeal of her new found faith, she told my sister and I that our father's entire family was going to hell since they were not "saved."

This led to many years of confusion and searching, which I finally resolved in my early twenties by the Grace of God, and came back to His Church.

If you and your boyfriend are not on the same page, don't get married. I would take him to the English speaking parish and have him meet with the priest. While you can go to your family's parish for Pascha, why not go to the English speaking parish for Palm Sunday?

May God bless the both of you on your journey together.

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"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11

Handmaiden, I agree that it is very important for the family to go to church together. I think it is very confusing to children when parents are of two different faiths (and it's even worse if both parents aren't Christians).

I also agree with Father. You are not going to change or "fix" someone else because both people are going to be miserable. The person who (supposedly) needs to be "fixed" is going to be unhappy for not being accepted for who he/she is, while the other person is going to be unhappy because that person isn't what he/she wants the other person to be. My mother's first husband was extremely jealous and she married him thinking she could change him. Well, she couldn't. The marriage ended when he was killed in a plane crash (he was in the military). When a friend of mine was engaged to a very jealous man and wasn't sure if she should marry him (she thought she might be able to change him), my mother said that unless she can accept him the way he is and live with his jealously, she shouldn't marry him. My mother very, very rarely gave advice, but she thought in this case she should so that she could get my friend to look at her situation realistically (by the way, my friend did not marry him).

Shouldn't each person in the marriage be accepted for who they are? People can't be forced to change, and, remember that your partner probably wishes that there were things about you that he would change. Would you be willing to do the same for him? Only God can really change us. As my mother told me once, part of loving a person is accepting the person as he/she is, flaws and all. All that each of us can do is to let God change us--we can't change others, only God can do that.

Well, I think that a persons faith isn't like a persons biology in that, it can change while the person stays the same. The point is more on whether that person is willing to change for the right reason other than too satisfying a spouse. It sometimes doesn't end up well when a spouse changes for the wrong reasons because of being love struck for example. Usually The determining factor should be on the persons own ability to change for themselves instead of pleasing a spouse.

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Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.

thank you everyone for your thoughts. i know you took the time and really have given me a lot to think about. i dont know what is going to happen, but i have been praying that God reveals himself to my boyfriend in the orthodox way and opens his eyes, it cant come from me it has to come from above.

Father is right in regards to learning your Faith. How can one live a faith which they do not know?

At my parish, there is a year-round catechism class (according to older parishioners, my parish ALWAYS seems to have catechumens), which several cradle parishioners attend regularly, that they may truly know their Faith. Perhaps there is a similar class at your parish you can attend?

Nenieeee, is your boyfriend a Trinitarian Pentecostal or a so-called "Oneness Pentecostal?" I recently learned that some groups that call themselves Pentecostal (for example the so-called United Pentecostal Church International or UPCI) reject the doctrine of the Trinity, thus separating themselves not only from Orthodoxy but from Heterodox Christianity as well. I am afraid that if your boyfriend belongs to UPCI or something similar, it may further complicate things. But in any case, of course, stick to your own faith, learn more about it and treat him lovingly and prayerfully...

i disagree, a christian is a christian and if only orthodox christians are following it the right way then a whole lot of good people are going to hell? i dont believe that, sorry.

Nenieeee, anyone who was baptized in the name of the Holy Trinity is a Christian. Nevertheless, the Church is one; there are no "different churches" - that's a Protestant fallacy. One is either IN the Church (that is, in the Orthodox Church), or outside of it. So yes, Pentecostals, Baptists, Episcopalians, Roman Catholics and a lot of other people who have been baptized in the name of the Trinity are Christians, but they are not in the Church. We want them all to be in the Church, but it's up to them to join.

We are in the Church because we believe that the Church (=the Orthodox Church) has preserved the true teaching of Christ and the Apostles, while those who are outside of the Church distort this true teaching in various ways. We need to say it out loud in front of those who are outside of the Church, without "sugar-coating" it.

As for who is going to hell - how can we know that? As Quinault has pointed out, none of us can be completely sure about our own salvation, far less about salvation of another human being whose heart we do not know (only God knows the hearts). We want everyone to be saved and we know that in the Church, our salvation is being worked out (even though each of us can at any moment "drop out"). As for those outside of the Church, again, we wish them all well and we wish them all to be saved, and we know that God's grace and mercy are limitless, but "knowing" that Person A will be saved and Person B will go to hell is not for us.

None of us can be completely sure of our salvation? St. Seraphim of Sarov save us from such foolish reasoning. The hagiography of the Church does not agree with such self deprecating sentimentalism.

john

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Courteous is my name,and I have always aimed to live up to it.Grace is also my name,but when things go wrongits Courteous whom I blame;but its Grace who sees me through it.

i disagree, a christian is a christian and if only orthodox christians are following it the right way then a whole lot of good people are going to hell? i dont believe that, sorry.

Nenieeee, anyone who was baptized in the name of the Holy Trinity is a Christian. Nevertheless, the Church is one; there are no "different churches" - that's a Protestant fallacy. One is either IN the Church (that is, in the Orthodox Church), or outside of it. So yes, Pentecostals, Baptists, Episcopalians, Roman Catholics and a lot of other people who have been baptized in the name of the Trinity are Christians, but they are not in the Church. We want them all to be in the Church, but it's up to them to join.

We are in the Church because we believe that the Church (=the Orthodox Church) has preserved the true teaching of Christ and the Apostles, while those who are outside of the Church distort this true teaching in various ways. We need to say it out loud in front of those who are outside of the Church, without "sugar-coating" it.

As for who is going to hell - how can we know that? As Quinault has pointed out, none of us can be completely sure about our own salvation, far less about salvation of another human being whose heart we do not know (only God knows the hearts). We want everyone to be saved and we know that in the Church, our salvation is being worked out (even though each of us can at any moment "drop out"). As for those outside of the Church, again, we wish them all well and we wish them all to be saved, and we know that God's grace and mercy are limitless, but "knowing" that Person A will be saved and Person B will go to hell is not for us.

None of us can be completely sure of our salvation? St. Seraphim of Sarov save us from such foolish reasoning. The hagiography of the Church does not agree with such self deprecating sentimentalism.

john

Oh? You're the first I've heard make that claim. Please provide examples from the hagiography that qualify as evidence for this assertion.

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"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

look this thread was to help me understand how to bring someone closer to orthodoxy not a forum for people to disagree with each other. isnt faith supposed to unite us, not divide us?

There are people in the church that are at different levels of spiritual awareness. Therefore you will see many ideas tossed around that seem to clash with what the church actually believes. That's why it's best to speak to your priest since he is the one responsible for your salvation.

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Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.

i disagree, a christian is a christian and if only orthodox christians are following it the right way then a whole lot of good people are going to hell? i dont believe that, sorry.

Nenieeee, anyone who was baptized in the name of the Holy Trinity is a Christian. Nevertheless, the Church is one; there are no "different churches" - that's a Protestant fallacy. One is either IN the Church (that is, in the Orthodox Church), or outside of it. So yes, Pentecostals, Baptists, Episcopalians, Roman Catholics and a lot of other people who have been baptized in the name of the Trinity are Christians, but they are not in the Church. We want them all to be in the Church, but it's up to them to join.

We are in the Church because we believe that the Church (=the Orthodox Church) has preserved the true teaching of Christ and the Apostles, while those who are outside of the Church distort this true teaching in various ways. We need to say it out loud in front of those who are outside of the Church, without "sugar-coating" it.

As for who is going to hell - how can we know that? As Quinault has pointed out, none of us can be completely sure about our own salvation, far less about salvation of another human being whose heart we do not know (only God knows the hearts). We want everyone to be saved and we know that in the Church, our salvation is being worked out (even though each of us can at any moment "drop out"). As for those outside of the Church, again, we wish them all well and we wish them all to be saved, and we know that God's grace and mercy are limitless, but "knowing" that Person A will be saved and Person B will go to hell is not for us.

None of us can be completely sure of our salvation? St. Seraphim of Sarov save us from such foolish reasoning. The hagiography of the Church does not agree with such self deprecating sentimentalism.

john

What in St. Seraphim makes you think he was arguing for individual assurance of salvation? As far as I know, his very famous quote is, "Save yourself (by acquiring the Holy Spirit. --H.), and by this many people around you will be saved" ("cпасай сeбя (стяжаниeм Святого Духа), и тeм многиe вокруг тeбя спасутся"). But he meant the PROCESS or the "work" of salvation, not the final result. (In fact, the original Russian quote might be better translated into English like "be saving yourself," or "be busy saving yourself.") All Orthodox saints believed about themselves that they were the greatest sinners, and were, AFAIK, completely UNsure of their personal salvation... You can read in some monastic ascetic Fathers an admonition that one should consider him- or herself the WORST of sinners, NOT being worthy of salvation...

look this thread was to help me understand how to bring someone closer to orthodoxy not a forum for people to disagree with each other. isnt faith supposed to unite us, not divide us?

You are 100% right: we should not take advantage of this thread to argue with each other. On the other hand, this forum does tend to act as a debating society at times--just what you would expect from a large family gathering.

By the way, you had said earlier that your boyfriend is "mesmerized" by the Holy Spirit. I take to mean that he is serious about encountering God and growing closer to Him. But, these are exactly what Orthodox Christians do. Once he sees that you are "mesmerized" by Christ, as well as the Holy Spirit, his estimation of Orthodoxy will improve and he may even consent to go to Church with you and check it out seriously (as I said earlier, for a considerable period of time) unless he believes in the particular stress amongst Pentecostals on speaking in tongues.

look this thread was to help me understand how to bring someone closer to orthodoxy not a forum for people to disagree with each other. isnt faith supposed to unite us, not divide us?

You are 100% right: we should not take advantage of this thread to argue with each other. On the other hand, this forum does tend to act as a debating society at times--just what you would expect from a large family gathering.

When Orthodox get together, it's always a large family gathering.

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"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

St. Seraphim urged and exhorted many to come to him after his repose wherein they would experience the certainty of his salvation as intercession for those whose hearts are burdened. Secondly, we just recently celebrated the Lenten Service of St. Mary of Egypt...of which St. Zosimas wa certain of her salvation and the whole Church since on his testomony.

Furthermore, the Apostle John tells us that even if our hearts fail to comfort us, God is bigger than our hearts. Our certainty does not originate from within ourselves, it originates from within the Church by which we have fellowship with the Holy Trinity. If our weaknessess (an I am full of them) condemn us, we do not despair of our salvation and we do not denigrate the Promises of God to those who are being saved, for He will complete in us that which he has begun in us.

To recognize oneself as the first/worst/chief of sinners is not question the certainty of our salvation, for it is God who saves us. Rather it is to refuse to find our confidence within our works for our salvation. Even my best efforts, and my purest attempts to love God or my neighbor are like an onion. Each layer removed only reveals an onion, but each layer removed gets me closer to being onionless.

The 40th martyr was not sure of himself, he was sure of God.

john

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Courteous is my name,and I have always aimed to live up to it.Grace is also my name,but when things go wrongits Courteous whom I blame;but its Grace who sees me through it.

If we do not place Orthodoxy above everything worldly (and having a boyfriend is worldly, even if it is condoned) why should we expect anyone to respect Orthodoxy?

I doubt my advice (and the request for advice was reiterated) will be followed, and I doubt that anyone would expect the boyfriend to respect Orthodoxy because of following it, he would simply look for another girlfriend. But the above question remains valid and practicable, though difficult to do emotionally.

The question seems to me then to be, what can I do to make my boyfriend respect Orthodoxy right now while he is my boyfriend.

You cannot convert a Pentecostal by reason, for in their reasoning they each are a Church unto themselves. I was raised in a Pentecostal Holiness Church and had an atheist stepfather who required that I go to Church with my mother, and also sit and listen to his reasons for not believing in God. But perhaps conversion is not the goal, but simply that the boyfriend would stop badgering for Pentecostalism.

The commandment is to not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. Having a boy or girlfriend from outside of the Orthodox Church may not be a civilly legally binding relationship, but who doubts that it is not an emotional one.

As to the question about dropping your wife, some Saints did, and some people do.

John

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Courteous is my name,and I have always aimed to live up to it.Grace is also my name,but when things go wrongits Courteous whom I blame;but its Grace who sees me through it.

For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

EXACTLY. Maybe this can be applied to a Heterodox boy/girlfriend as well.

It could be, but I always took from the NT that if one is single and already a Christian, then one must only marry a fellow Christian, but if a couple was not Christian when they married, and one later becomes a believer, then the believer is to remain true to his/her spouse. It comes as a huge shock for me to see divorce due to these circumstances being condoned on this forum; when I was living in Eastern Europe, this is one of the huge things the Orthodox Church was always accusing the Protestant sects of- breaking up families!

For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

Is this why many men who do not got o church say that they "send their wives for them"?

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Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.-- Gustave Flaubert

For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

EXACTLY. Maybe this can be applied to a Heterodox boy/girlfriend as well.

Not quite.

In your case, you met your lovely wife prior to your conversion to Orthodoxy, so you were unaware of the Truth at the time of your marriage. You have since converted, and Glory to God, are part of the One, True, Holy Church. St. Paul tells us that in these cases, we should not leave our unbelieving spouse, but rather pray for them, and try to lead them to Christ by leading a Holy life.

Quote from: 1 Corinthians 7:10-16 (NKJV)

Now to the married I command, yet not I but the Lord: A wife is not to depart from her husband. But even if she does depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband. And a husband is not to divorce his wife. But to the rest I, not the Lord, say: If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her. And a woman who has a husband who does not believe, if he is willing to live with her, let her not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy. But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases. But God has called us to peace. For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?

In the OP's case, they are already Orthodox but their boyfriend is not. It gets kind of tricky here because the person is a Christian, but they are not part of Christ's Holy Church. If he is going to be respectful of her faith, consent to be married in the Church and raise their children in the Church, and allow his wife and children to follow Orthodox fasting practices, hang icons in the home, etc., then that is fine. Heck, he may even convert years after they are married! (I have seen this happen.)

However, if he is going to be staunch in his position and be hostile to the OP's Orthodox faith, then she should reconsider her relationship with him.

In any case, the OP should be open to answering any questions he has about the faith, politely invite him to attend services with her, and have him speak with an Orthodox priest.

DON'T shove the Orthodox Church down his throat. Don't try to "argue" him into the Church. Live your faith, pray for him, and let God do the rest.

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"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11

For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

EXACTLY. Maybe this can be applied to a Heterodox boy/girlfriend as well.

Not quite.

In your case, you met your lovely wife prior to your conversion to Orthodoxy, so you were unaware of the Truth at the time of your marriage. You have since converted, and Glory to God, are part of the One, True, Holy Church. St. Paul tells us that in these cases, we should not leave our unbelieving spouse, but rather pray for them, and try to lead them to Christ by leading a Holy life.

Actually, she was a cradle Orthodox (baptized in infancy), and I was unbaptized. Later, I became baptized and chrismated and an Orthodox, and she began to evolve into a "conscientious objecter" (agnostic)

In the case of OP and her boyfriend, they both are Christians, he is just Heterodox. We have couples in our parish who have only one member who is Orthodox, the other being Episcopalian or Methodist. They met and married when the Orthodox one was already Orthodox.

This may be moot by now, but I want to address something that I learned, the hard way. The VERY hard way.

If there are red flags before marriage, PLEASE examine and investigate those flags before marrying. Please. For your sake and the sake of any children produced in the marriage. Don't deceive yourself into thinking that it'll all be ok after the wedding. It won't. Seek counsel from those you trust about the red flags (whatever those are; be they religious red flags or something else), and pray for wisdom. And, while I know of stories of unbelieving (or in this case, different believing) spouses later converting, don't bank on that. It can happen, and praise God if it does, but it can also NOT happen.

Faith is a huge issue. It should be a huge issue. If the two parties considering marriage aren't on the same page with faith and how to live it, there are going to be problems that will permeate every aspect of life.

I'm neither pentecostal nor Orthodox, but from what I know of either, they are very very different in all aspects of the faith. Please, spare yourself future heartache and really examine whether this man is truly the man for you, to father your children, and grow old with. Because if you marry, and he becomes resentful or hostile to Orthodoxy, or, God forbid, leaves you over it, the pain and repercussions of divorce are far-reaching and long-lasting.

i have finally found a church that does focus the majority of the service in english and i spoke to the priest who is young and would love to sit down with him and discuss. i feel like maybe so much time has passed i dont even know if he would be open to the idea anymore.

Give him a few good books to read, c.d.'s, and mp3's to listen to. And pray for him. ......then wait a few months and see what happens.

ICXC NIKA

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"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

we have been dating for a good amount of time now and i know that his biggest issue is that we dont go to church together, i am not against going w him to a pentecostal church but i actually like my orthodox church but i know he doesnt get it. they do most of the service in greek and they dont cater to those trying to find out about the church, yet i know if he could see what i see, he would understand. he is also very knowledgeable on the bible and i cant go blow for blow w him since i dont know half the stuff he does in regards to the bible.

Maybe consider visiting an Orthodox church that uses half in English? Maybe some Greek churches have half English?

You sound very smart. Otherwise you will have to both learn church greek together, which can be a plus when reading the New Testament.

For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

EXACTLY. Maybe this can be applied to a Heterodox boy/girlfriend as well.

No. They shouldn't be having chiildren with a heterodox boyfriend (or an Orthodox one for that matter).

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth