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I don't think that giving a lvl 30 Captain a 1st age is a viable solution.

Well, they almost did give Captains that :P Halberd of the Watch (there are lvl 10, 20, 30, 40 and 50 versions of it) have very nice DPS and stats for their levels, but rather rare as they only drop in lootboxes.

Sabrian - Your numbers are useless when you're not showing anything else, e.g. the number of Burglars in the raid. I've reached over 3k DPS on Laugshat when he died, but that was with a good high number of Burglars.

Sabrian - Your numbers are useless when you're not showing anything else, e.g. the number of Burglars in the raid. I've reached over 3k DPS on Laugshat when he died, but that was with a good high number of Burglars.

1 burg and my telling mark no oaths. Happy now? U both seems misread what i try to say. Our dps is good, if u say its low then u do smt wrong. If u want high dps roll a true dps class.

Furthermore if u read whole post u will see i want lower animation and cd on some of the skills which will increase the dps levels alot both in end game and in low levels by increasing the speed of the rotation u use. That will also affect the incredible slow attack speed we have even with BB,WC and runes its still too slow.

Well that's good to know. I feel a lot more secure about the future of my class knowing you're the same developer who was behind those changes. And I'm not just trying to be a brown-noser either. The strategic combination of Valiant Strike, Hytbold and that new legacy that increases defeat duration was nothing short of ingenious and I hope you got a raise or something for your efforts because you deserve one.

Hello, first i need to say that im a dps captain. I trait ltc in raids,3,6 mans. A lot of the captains say our dps is not worth saying which is not entirely truth. Ofc we wont be main dps in raids but this is not our goal. Will give some numbers and screenshot to prove my point.

It's a little hard to use your numbers for this discussion seeing as you have lvl 70 1st Age items, which is far above and beyond what most people have now and most will ever have.

Hey, now, he's sharing a valuable data point. We need to consider it, even if it does need to be put into the appropriate context.

That context being:

DPS while leveling is still extremely low

DPS compared to a different class with the same caliber of gear is still extremely low

2k DPS at level 85 sounds impressive if viewed in a vacuum, but it's less impressive if Overpower Guardians are putting out over 3k with the same level of gear. (Which is not unreasonable, apparently.) And it also doesn't help newbie Captains who are in their 40s and getting bored.

Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My opinions are my own!

Hey, now, he's sharing a valuable data point. We need to consider it, even if it does need to be put into the appropriate context.

That context being:

DPS while leveling is still extremely low

DPS compared to a different class with the same caliber of gear is still extremely low

2k DPS at level 85 sounds impressive if viewed in a vacuum, but it's less impressive if Overpower Guardians are putting out over 3k with the same level of gear. (Which is not unreasonable, apparently.) And it also doesn't help newbie Captains who are in their 40s and getting bored.

So another misunderstanding. Lets clear more deeply. I dont talk for leveling captain even though i said what i think will help improving dps values at low levels and at end game. Second what means DPS captain when i said it.

Grouping

1. 2k dps to the group
2. Lots of crits 30% caped = lots of support heals and power that are prety good 3.5k RC crits
3. Decreasing fellowship attack speed with 20% = WC and FB
4. Increasing fellowship dmg with 10% with To Arms

Solo i have no issues with the gear i have

Not mentioning other buffs we do in general

So if u guys want 3k+ dps and have all of the above too that will make the class OP imo.

Replying to the post above that i have FA so my numbers arent accurate.

Yes i can say im happy or im not happy with my dps only when i have best items the game can give me. I cant complain for my dps with quest gear and 3th age weapon can i?

So my point was : overall dps is fair with all the other stuff we do. Ive never said our dps is at good spot did i? I just said its not so bad as most say and i show it.

So another misunderstanding. Lets clear more deeply. I dont talk for leveling captain even though i said what i think will help improving dps values at low levels and at end game. Second what means DPS captain when i said it.

Grouping

1. 2k dps to the group
2. Lots of crits 30% caped = lots of support heals and power that are prety good 3.5k RC crits
3. Decreasing fellowship attack speed with 20% = WC and FB
4. Increasing fellowship dmg with 10% with To Arms

Solo i have no issues with the gear i have

Not mentioning other buffs we do in general

So if u guys want 3k+ dps and have all of the above too that will make the class OP imo.

Replying to the post above that i have FA so my numbers arent accurate.

Yes i can say im happy or im not happy with my dps only when i have best items the game can give me. I cant complain for my dps with quest gear and 3th age weapon can i?

So my point was : overall dps is fair with all the other stuff we do. Ive never said our dps is at good spot did i? I just said its not so bad as most say and i show it.

You are talking about grouping at level cap, Furtim is mostly talking about soloing, especially below level cap. Stop mixing those together as if they're the same thing because they are not.

Originally Posted by Sabrian

Solo i have no issues with the gear i have

Good for you, but that doesn't change how low DPS a leveling Captain usually does. If you start a new Captain you will find it's a lot slower to kill mobs than most if not all other classes. Unlike an endgame Captain running into new expansions with first age LIs and endgame armor, new Captains rarely have access to that stuff and therefore suffers a lot more than you experience when leveling.

You are talking about grouping at level cap, Furtim is mostly talking about soloing, especially below level cap. Stop mixing those together as if they're the same thing because they are not.

Lets clear more deeply. I dont talk for leveling captain even though i said what i think will help improving dps values at low levels

Second i quote him coz he compared us with OP guardian doing 3k dps

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Good for you, but that doesn't change how low DPS a leveling Captain usually does. If you start a new Captain you will find it's a lot slower to kill mobs than most if not all other classes. Unlike an endgame Captain running into new expansions with first age LIs and endgame armor, new Captains rarely have access to that stuff and therefore suffers a lot more than you experience when leveling.

I start my post with this Im dps captain which makes some of u feel angry somehow dont know why. I gave my ideas for the class. I finish my post with this line - There are alot of good ideas in this thread but this is what i want to see for my captain.

So i see no reason for u to put my words in different context it was obvious i talk for end game. This topic is not only for revamping new captains i think its also what end game could be changed. If u wana talk for dps at low levels only then sorry for making my post.

Lets clear more deeply. I dont talk for leveling captain even though i said what i think will help improving dps values at low levels

Second i quote him coz he compared us with OP guardian doing 3k dps

But that's the thing, it is clearly you who do not put effort into reading my post. I clearly state that I see you're talking about the endgame Captain. Your mistake here is that you quote a post about soloing and leveling Captain (furtims post) and answer with essentially "DPS is ok in groups". Captain DPS in groups is great because of the buffs, but as Furtim says our DPS when soloing and especially when leveling is simply below par as the usefulness of buffs is much lower here.

I start my post with this Im dps captain which makes some of u feel angry somehow dont know why. I gave my ideas for the class. I finish my post with this line - There are alot of good ideas in this thread but this is what i want to see for my captain.

So i see no reason for u to put my words in different context it was obvious i talk for end game. This topic is not only for revamping new captains i think its also what end game could be changed. If u wana talk for dps at low levels only then sorry for making my post.

It has absolutely nothing to do with "so another misunderstanding", at least on my part. You were the one taking a post from one context (soloing+leveling) and putting into another context (grouping). As for "feel angry", I disagree, at least for my own part.

Originally Posted by Arabani

I'll repeat it again, the captain is a support class. So buffs and dps first of all.

Why DPS first of all? The whole point of the Captain is the buff + versability, Captains have excellent supporting abilities into healing and (especially when RockX fixes LoM) tanking.

Also, the Guardian is a tanking class, and that doesn't stop them from doing respectable DPS when soloing in Overpower.

Why DPS first of all? The whole point of the Captain is the buff + versability, Captains have excellent supporting abilities into healing and (especially when RockX fixes LoM) tanking.

Also, the Guardian is a tanking class, and that doesn't stop them from doing respectable DPS when soloing in Overpower.

You are right ofcourse. But a raid always has tanks and healers( exept rare occasions). That means a captain is just helping them. You don't realy need to stay back and watch for health bars, or tanking mobs whole fight. You do usual support things, casting heals when needed and..dps the rest of time. It's the dps what kills mobs, not healers or tanks. Imo it's better to focus on increasing a group dps output with better buffs and adding noticable self dps, then a bit higher heals. I seriously think, that HoH captain is a waste of raid space. Our captains are LoM or rainbow traited.
As for guardians, i'm sure you will never see them as a dps in a serious raid They have a role-tank. They do it.

You are right ofcourse. But a raid always has tanks and healers( exept rare occasions). That means a captain is just helping them. You don't realy need to stay back and watch for health bars, or tanking mobs whole fight. You do usual support things, casting heals when needed and..dps the rest of time. It's the dps what kills mobs, not healers or tanks. Imo it's better to focus on increasing a group dps output with better buffs and adding noticable self dps, then a bit higher heals. I seriously think, that HoH captain is a waste of raid space. Our captains are LoM or rainbow traited.
As for guardians, i'm sure you will never see them as a dps in a serious raid They have a role-tank. They do it.

I think you must have missed the changes that were made with RoI. LoM is the tank line. If your tanks are tanking, why are your captains also traited for tanking?

Since RoI, buffs are completely independent of all trait lines (with the exception of the +5 To Arms trait). Because of this, there's absolutely no reason why extra heals with HoH would be less beneficial than LtC or LoM, especially if your group needs more heals.

As much as I don't want to sound like a jerk in this situation (especially since I don't want this thread to get closed) I really think you need to learn more about captain before you start talking about what captains should or should not be traiting.

You are right ofcourse. But a raid always has tanks and healers( exept rare occasions). That means a captain is just helping them. You don't realy need to stay back and watch for health bars, or tanking mobs whole fight. You do usual support things, casting heals when needed and..dps the rest of time. It's the dps what kills mobs, not healers or tanks. Imo it's better to focus on increasing a group dps output with better buffs and adding noticable self dps, then a bit higher heals. I seriously think, that HoH captain is a waste of raid space. Our captains are LoM or rainbow traited.
As for guardians, i'm sure you will never see them as a dps in a serious raid They have a role-tank. They do it.

Hehe, lets just say we disagree. I've found HoH to be extremely useful the last two weeks.

1. An overhaul of our class and weapon legacies. I still don't understand why Shadows Lament and Grave Wounds cooldowns are on emblem...it would be nice to have some tanking legacies (I don't consider Grave Wounds cooldown a tanking legacy, since it isn't going to replace a healing legacy on my emblem even if I'm tanking and it's utter garbage anyway). We have healing and DPS legacies, but no tanking ones...-10% Cry Power cost is useless atm due to Fate changes...65 Fate is better than this legacy....you get the idea...

2. I would really like to see Inspire HEAL the fellowship while in HoH. You are traiting for heals when you trait HoH and giving power isn't your priority (although 25% outgoing healing is nice). Also, given current power changes, and assuming you have Now for Wrath traited, your Inspire will do absolutely nothing anyway...

3. I would like to see MoW trait line get revamped. Currently there are about 3 or 4 good traits in this line. There really should be more. Also, if there were a way for Captains to get a higher crit multiplier for their melee in MoW that would, IMO, be really awesome (15% isn't much). Also, there are no really good DPS sets available for Captains out there atm...at least none for his "personal" DPS.

A47: Matt "Hoarsedev" Zimmitti
Each class on its own should be good enough at what you choose to do. You will have to approach challenges based on your build's strengths. This is specifically NOT intended to force grouping.

Does this mean you have the intention of giving main role status to each of the three trait lines?

Also, are you going to keep the fourth role of support (ie: non-capstone builds) as a viable option?

Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

Herald of War: Tbh, I'm not sure what Herald of War could remove, maybe, Removes 1 Wound/Fear/Disease/Fear from Target with maximum strength of 90, with 1min CD. or, Removes Fellowship wide.

(These are just new skills for them to be added down at the companion shoutcut bar)
of course no one would probably use a Herald unless Solo but if you make them worth using when you make some changes then they may be worth using.

I've seen cappies talking about captank survivability and such, and considering we only get +3 morale per vitality we don't have as big a morale pool as designated tanks. This is understandable since we aren't really designated for anything except being buffingmonkeys. Wouldn't it be more fair if the yellow capstone turned your +3 vit into +4? Since traiting yellow already decreases your ability to heal/dps, I don't really see how this could be OP.
(Don't know if it's already suggested, since i CBA to read 8 pages to find out)

I told myself i would post here only after i read all of the posts so far.
I did not do it.
So my opinions here will not be enrichened by other opinions and i will allow myself to present it in a bit different way than RockX intended.

First of all, please do not break us.
Captain is in a great position, maybe the best. The raid never as good as it can be if it does not have two of us.
What we bring to the table is big buffs, offtanking and good off-heals and off-dps (yes, sometime in the right run, right people and right gear and switches we can be main heals and close to main dps.
We can main tank and main heal any 3man and 6man and fill a dps slot in almost any 3man, even in dps races if not grouped with a pure tank and pure healer.
Our potential to solo instances is near the top of the list and for a good built player the 1v1 Moors potential is there too.

Changes i would like to see:

1. Tanking
With the LoM capstone the following should be altered:
- lots of our skills gaining "generates additional aggro" effect
- Fighting Withdrawal changed to a skill that either buffs our aggro generation for a time or it should be an "Engage-type" or leech skill. Its cooldown should also be removed
- our vit giving 4 morale points
- ignore those who suggest that we must be able to tank as well as guadians and wardens

2. Healing
This is in a pretty good position considering all the sets we can now combine and with the availability of higher crit and VS c/d reduction to provide continuous heals.
- someone said Muster Courage should be used when silenced, i agree with that
- ignore those that insist we must be able to heal as good as Minstrels and RKs in every situation

3. Redline
I did not call this DPS on purpose. 5 red 2 blue is awesome for soloing providing very good dps and sustanability.
- ignore those who say we should be able to dps as dps classes
- ignore those who suggest going LtC should increase our dps significantly but make us lose a lot of heals
- a legacy such as "Melee critical magnitude" could be welcome
- a trait that reduces the c/d of cutting attack or increases the duration of its slow by a bit would be welcome. In moors, it is often hard to re-apply the slow at the exact moment. Either that or give us an additional, longer c/d, slow.
- pets are more useful than most captains know (extra RC target to reduce VS c/d, soloing, moors) but there is much more potential than that idea. Make them better.

Also, i do not know what to expect with the tree- traiting. I suppose it will be good for quickly changing from one setup to another anywhere but it still makes me a bit sceptical.
Will i be able to trait what i trait now? More? Less?
Will i be required to spend points on, situationally, useless traits to get to the good ones for those situations and then have less points to get other usefuls?
I sense a lot of broken classes.
I hope the feedback and the reception of it will be good in U11 Beta.

While i do not like the idea of a tree trait line, i would enjoy a fast way to save my most used trait configurations so i don't lose precious time at bards.

Back to LoM ideas: Captains do not have a break-free skill to get away from staub and mezzes, unlike most other classes. A stunned captain is bad for the group, but a Captank stunned is a wipe coming to the group.

In HoH i think that WoC when traited in HoH could receive some pump- we can't handle spike damage well enough, even when running glass cannon. This combined with the more defeat responses that MoW generates is making captains run around in MoW. In HoH VS become a powerhouse, but we still can't use the Captain's way of melee healing in all situations, and that is making us second choice in many instances and raids- i feel like a sitting duck in fornost water because my WoC are too weak.

Captains B/P/E need some adjustment. Champions were a class that could use shields but usually tanked with parry. Champs now got more parry from Might. We used to tank with a 2 hander, so we should receive more parry from our might as well, in all trait lines. Our agility became a mostly useless stat- we get more evade using pure evade items, and the crit contribution is diminished. To recover some use, agility could contribute to block, parry and finesse.

Finally the most important advice: WE NEED MOAR POWAR
If before we were asking for a way to play a captain without slotting NfW in every build, now we are running out of power even with NfW traited in MoW and HoH and both -10% power cost legacies. We lost the Fate ICPR but still need to endure higher skill costs. If captains had power issues before, now we are completely broken. An this should not wait for an update, at least reduce linearly our skills costs so things at least return to how they were before the Fate revamp.

As for healing healing spikedamage, I'd say the Captain take is a lot different. We have Shield-brother To Arms, In Harms Way and Shield of the Dunedain to handle spike damage + a lot of HoTs to handle most other damage. To be honest, I like this perspective a lot more than just pumping up our heals (it's not like our heals are bad at the moment), but the cooldowns are rather long. What about something like Shield of the Dunedain but with smaller numbers, e.g. -15% incoming damage for 5 seconds with a 20 second cooldown?

Originally Posted by Nascephor

Finally the most important advice: WE NEED MOAR POWAR
If before we were asking for a way to play a captain without slotting NfW in every build, now we are running out of power even with NfW traited in MoW and HoH and both -10% power cost legacies. We lost the Fate ICPR but still need to endure higher skill costs. If captains had power issues before, now we are completely broken. An this should not wait for an update, at least reduce linearly our skills costs so things at least return to how they were before the Fate revamp.

If you are running out of power on HoH with NfW traited you are doing something terribly wrong, and even then it's only a matter of swapping to Song-brother and pop Inspire until you're back on track. I'll go as far to say you're doing something wrong in MoW as well, but I know how a no-crit crisis can cripple a Captain rather badly in regards to power. Still, it really should not be a problem.

If you are running out of power on HoH with NfW traited you are doing something terribly wrong, and even then it's only a matter of swapping to Song-brother and pop Inspire until you're back on track. I'll go as far to say you're doing something wrong in MoW as well, but I know how a no-crit crisis can cripple a Captain rather badly in regards to power. Still, it really should not be a problem.

Try farming glinghant more and will notice that power goes out even in HoH. Farming Sambrog in massive pulls without champs in the group taxes your power a lot in the massive pulls, In both cases i am hitting blue pots a lot and never touching the green pots. Gone are the days of running 5r2y, now its 5r2b, 5b2y and 5y2b. all r+y combos are running into power issues now. Its math, not a strategy mistake we captains are making: they gave us massive ICPR from fate coupled with increased power costs. now we lost our ICPR but still face increased power costs. we captains were complaining about power before, now we are totally broken. My suggestion is to realign power costs with the ICPR.

Try farming glinghant more and will notice that power goes out even in HoH. Farming Sambrog in massive pulls without champs in the group taxes your power a lot in the massive pulls, In both cases i am hitting blue pots a lot and never touching the green pots. Gone are the days of running 5r2y, now its 5r2b, 5b2y and 5y2b. all r+y combos are running into power issues now. Its math, not a strategy mistake we captains are making: they gave us massive ICPR from fate coupled with increased power costs. now we lost our ICPR but still face increased power costs. we captains were complaining about power before, now we are totally broken. My suggestion is to realign power costs with the ICPR.

I have done both of those instance several times without running out of power. As for Glingant moving away from the mobs with power debuff aura before using RC helps a lot with power. In situations where you can't (e.g. the bossfight), the Eastemnet Battle Tonic is awesome with it's -60% power cost for 20s. Also, the bossfight is a candidate for starting with Song-brother if you really have trouble with power.
As for Sambrog I have a really hard time seeing how you can't get plenty of defeat events in these "massive pulls".
I agree that Now for Wrath is an absolute must to manage power, which rules out builds such as 5r2y. Thing is, it's been like that for ages and not something that came along with the changes to Fate as you suggest.

I will throw my hat in the ring here and give my biggest three suggestions:

1) Active Buffing - I know that every captain has his or her own thing they like to do, but I think the specialized role of the captain is and should be group buffs. However, by and large, our buffs are done before combat and the in-combat buffing potential is small at best (War-Cry and SB buffs). I think you could somehow attach our tactics buffs to active skill use instead of it being a passively generated buff which is not interesting (and quite repetitive to continually recast). This could also fix the buffstick dilemma. One idea I have had is to give us different endings to our current BS > DB > BoE skillchain where the different actions we choose throughout determines a group buff that goes out on the final piece. (you might have to change how different skills fit into the chain to make this work, but it's just an idea. The main point is meaningful buffing decisions)

In any case, active buffing would increase captain gameplay and would force us to choose between healing, damage, or buffing. I think that this would make things more interesting because we'd have to actively be watching the group and making decisions based on what is needed. Would buffs to dps or survivability be good to throw out right now? Perhaps the heals are low and I need to let buffs lapse to keep the group alive. Maybe the healer is fine, but I know some heavy damage is coming up so I want some incoming healing on the group?

2) Gear Swapping - I understand that it is not required, but it is needed to be the most effective captain possible. I know it would limit our effectiveness, but I think gear-swapping in combat should be removed. Force us to make the gearing decision before combat. Gear swapping is not particularly interesting or fun gameplay. This is probably an unpopular call as many of us have built entire playstyles and gear around this game mechanic but it should be gone. It could just be the Roleplayer in me, but I kind of like the idea of deciding which swords and other equipment to don before engaging with a difficult foe.

3) Captain Tanking - This absolutely either needs to be done so that captains are viable off-tanks (1-3 mobs I think is acceptable) or removed completely. The aggro issues are just out of hand, I understand you guys want to make holding threat a key component of tanking but that stance needs to be eased up a bit. A tank using all their threat moves *should* be able to hold aggro against top-tier DPS without causing a heart-attack for either the tank or the DPS. Don't get me wrong, I really like the idea behind the yellow-line changes over the past two expansions, but tanking is still not completely viable mostly due to threat. (I know there are other problems, but many of those can be voided with proper equipment, gearing, or group comps)

If tanking is not viable just remove it and do something else with yellow-line. I think it worked fine in the old days as kind of the group buff dps line with some force taunts for sticky situations.

2) Gear Swapping - I understand that it is not required, but it is needed to be the most effective captain possible. I know it would limit our effectiveness, but I think gear-swapping in combat should be removed. Force us to make the gearing decision before combat. Gear swapping is not particularly interesting or fun gameplay. This is probably an unpopular call as many of us have built entire playstyles and gear around this game mechanic but it should be gone. It could just be the Roleplayer in me, but I kind of like the idea of deciding which swords and other equipment to don before engaging with a difficult foe.

gear swapping really annoys me and i'm tired of it and would pay 1000 tp for it to go away but it won't...

If i'm feeling serious, while buffing the raid I swap to 4 piece tognir for the tactmit buff. Swap in buffstick too obviously.. But I can handle the buffstick swap.

Then swap back to 4 piece command for the ss buff... But then decide we're falling behind on healing so swap in 4piece hytbold healer.. And of course every 2 minutes swap in my buff emblem for strength of will. Need time of need? Better swap. Need blood of numenor? Swap. Shield of the Dunedain? Swap.

I don't enjoy doing any of this... I can handle LI swapping because I'd rather be able to get the benefits of the junk i'm swapping in rather than give up something else... Armor sets is pretty silly, though.. And it's starting to apply to every class i play.