إرفنج ضد ليبستدات

Transcripts

Yes. I suspect what is going to happen during the 1person in the court who will need to look at it 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I do not want to spend undue time on 3it, but in some ways it is better to try to find them a 4spot in the existing bundles where they logically belong 5rather than having a, sort of, rather random new file 6created with whatever happens to turn up 7 MR RAMPTON: Yes, that is probably right. The only place I can 8think of to put this at the moment is with Mr Irving's 9statement 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I think that may be right 11MR IRVING: In my statement 12 MR RAMPTON: It has no other natural home that I can think of 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I think that may be right 14MR IRVING: Now, I add to your Lordship's misery by giving you 15the transcript of the video which we will now show 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. For the time being, at any rate, we 17shall put this in C4, shall we? Is that what you mean, 18Mr Rampton 19 MR RAMPTON: Yes, I think it is C4. Unfortunately, mine do not 20any longer correspond to the numbers -- nor does 21Miss Rogers' 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: The other thing is we need a hole puncher 23 MR RAMPTON: Tab 1, C4, my Lord 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, that is what I thought, at the back 25 MR RAMPTON: This next one, what is the number of the 26transcript file? The next one goes in D(ii). I do not

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1know which of the D(ii)s it will be; I have a feeling it 2is already there actually 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is worth spending just a little bit of 4time on this sort of thing at the moment because then we 5can get the system right for the future 6 MR RAMPTON: D(ii), tab -- my Lord, the best place for it is at 7the back of the second volume of D(ii) where it will have 8a new tab No. 23 9MR IRVING: I believe I am right in saying that this transcript 10was not already provided by the Defendants; this is a new 11transcript 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I think that is right. I think that is 13accepted. Shall we play it now 14MR IRVING: My Lord, can I just explain what it is 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes 16MR IRVING: This is a transcript of a tape of a news programme 17broadcasted in Australia on July 20th 1994 on ABC 18Television in Australia. It is a typical kind of news 19commentary programme, rather like News Night, which starts 20off with the news bulletin and then follows with a 21feature. The feature on this occasion was a feature 22called "The Big Lie". I do not propose to run the whole 23tape, but to start about three minutes in where I have 24positioned it as at the present which is page 2 near the 25top, my Lord. Mr Anthony Lerman of ---- 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes

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1MR IRVING: --- the Institute of Jewish affairs is about to 2start speaking. The reason I am playing it is because 3your Lordship will see that this interview provides the 4Second Defendant, Professor Lipstadt, with a chance to 5express her opinions unopposed 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes 7MR IRVING: I feel it is appropriate to allow her some minutes 8of the court's time in this rather oblique manner to 9express her opinions 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes 11MR IRVING: I understand that she will not be testifying in 12person in this case 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes 14 (Excerpt of video was played)15MR IRVING: My Lord, I pause very briefly there and invite your 16attention to one scene in the newsreel that is being 17displaced, black and white newsreel, where we are no 18longer outside the railroad trucks filming the people 19climbing into the railroad trucks, but the camera has 20suddenly positioned itself inside the railroad trucks. 21 I am not going to draw any inferences from that 22at this moment, my Lord, but we are suddenly inside a 23darkened railway truck, taking a shot from the inside to 24the outside as people climb in towards us 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes 26MR IRVING: That is the only point I make, my Lord. My Lord,

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1this is Professor van Pelt who will be testifying in this 2case. This is the actual building which we will be 3talking quite a lot about over the coming weeks, 4crematorium No. 2 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: At Auschwitz 6MR IRVING: At Auschwitz -- correction, at Birkenhau, my Lord, 7which is five miles from Auschwitz 8MR IRVING: My Lord 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is that all you want from that, Mr Irving 10MR IRVING: Yes. Your Lordship will see from the transcript 11the rest concerns Rwanda ---- 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I have read on and I did not think there 13was anything in the rest of it 14MR IRVING: Unless the Defendants object, I would not propose 15to play the rest of the tape 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sure they will not 17 MR RAMPTON: No 18MR IRVING: My Lord, I do not know if you consider that was a 19useful exercise? I would welcome your Lordship's guidance 20on ---- 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, to be frank, I think not very. In the 22end we have to get down to the specific criticisms of your 23historical approach 24MR IRVING: Yes 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: How we are quite going to deal with it, I do 26not know, but I think that is what has to be grappled with

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1and, from my point of view, the sooner the better 2MR IRVING: We are also concerned with the Second Defendant 3here. My Lord, I understand she will not be having a 4chance to speak and I will not be having a chance to 5cross-examine her. I think it was a useful exercise 6because it gave us a chance to see her in action. I think 7she could have handled herself under cross-examination, 8had she proposed to do so 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are entitled to make the point that she 10is, apparently, not going to give evidence. I have that 11point and I have now had the opportunity of seeing her on 12the interview 13MR IRVING: The other point I wish to draw attention to in the 14video is that the other witness who will be called, 15Professor van Pelt, draws great attention to the building 16he was standing on which was crematorium No. 2 in 17Birkenhau. He points to the holes, he points to the 18room. He says, "This is where it happened". In another 19video which I will show on another occasion, my Lord, he 20goes into much greater detail more emotionally saying, 21 "This is where it happened, this was the geographical 22centre of the Holocaust", and so on 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: You say that is a post war reconstruction 24MR IRVING: No, my Lord. We say something different about 25that. This is crematorium building in Birkenhau. What we 26say about that is that it was not what the Defence make