Several times a year men are treated to a men step up sermon, with the veneer of balance offered by the preacher telling the ladies to be patient and support the men, not realizing how imbalanced that is, setting up the female morality superiority complex that defines western faith…

Men seem to love self effacing, to nod and weep yet again, to rererererererererecommit to be better men…..again…..literally crying while the self satisfied wife empathizes and rubs circles on his back in support. Its a SICK dynamic, and its rotting men from the inside.

Empath’s vivid description of the modern Church keeps popping into my mind lately. The driving force behind this obsession with only correcting men is a mixture of a very unbiblical view of women and pure cowardice. As reader Jonathan Cooper explains, pastors are terrified of correcting women:

Yes, preaching on women’s responsibilities is a great idea. I have seen it done. The women revolt and the pastor is quickly fired. I have heard supposedly Christian women flatly say they will never, ever, ever submit to their husbands or obey what the Bible has to say about their role. The problem is not a lack of knowledge; it is a lack of obedience. As long as civil and criminal law is on their side they will continue to behave as they do. After all, they have every incentive to rebel. Who is going to stop them? The church? The government? The media?

What makes the practice of only correcting men all the more craven is how this goes against all principles of leadership. Whether you are in business or the military, only the very worst leaders reprimand a subordinate leader in front of his own subordinates unless they are going to immediately take them out of their leadership role. Even then, doing so has the risk of undermining the position itself. If generals make a habit of criticizing lieutenants (even just those who are performing poorly) in front of enlisted men, even good lieutenants will find it very difficult to lead. This is an awful practice in cases where there is generally good discipline, and the very worst thing a leader can do in cases where the authority of leadership is already in question.

In the case of the Church pastors are repeatedly criticizing husbands and fathers in front of their wives and children, and they are doing this with full knowledge that the wives are already in open revolt. This is after all why they won’t ever speak on topics the wives disapprove of.

Then they walk away and expect the father to act in the role of head of the household.

If a woman cannot submit to her husband she cannot submit to God. The wife must submit to her husband just as the Church submits to Christ. If the preacher is too timid to address this he is not a shepherd, he is a hireling. Here’s a real challenge to Christian men…. if your preacher is a hireling, find a new congregation to attend. It’s a faillure of leadership on your own part to willingly allow your family to be “shepherded” by hirelings. And of course we should give a special prayer for the soul of the poor hireling who goes home to be beaten by his fat and psycopathic wife.

Interesting post, Dalrock. I never made the connection to how much it undermines a man’s ability to lead when pastors do tis kind of thing in the public worship service. Just the thought made me queasy.

While I get TyphonBlues essay on how being a “submissive” wife can undermine a guy, I think the guys at AVFM have taken it a bit too far and not recognized that there’s a huge, HUGE amount of wiggle room. Ranging from “I will let him lead or have the final say, and support him in that role while maintaining my own sovereignty and initiative” – an example that can be found in a good CO/XO relationship, but also in good business management. Everyone understands that the boss has the final say, but no-one thinks, under a decent boss, that that excuses them from thinking for themselves.

What we’re seeing is in a way the worst of both worlds. The “I’ll never submit, grrr, hear me roar, I’m a special snowflake who can’t be called to task” gets welded to the “eek a spider/math is hard/that’s heavy” childlike submissiveness resulting in little or no accountability for women, and nothing but accountability for men, with no authority to match.

authority and accountability, privilege and responsibility. If they don’t match up, you have problems.

An apt comparison to the military leadership model. A superior officer dressing down a subordinate officer in front of his charges is bad for all levels of leadership in the organization. Junior members who are led by the subordinate and respect his leadership may now question their judgement about the subordinate, or will question the judgement of the senior leader in reprimanding his subordinate in public. Subordinates who were already defiant will become more rebellious in many cases. It generates significant confusion and doubt in the entire leadership chain, and makes leading very difficult at all levels. In addition, its very tough (if not impossible) to walk it back, unless personnel are replaced (costly these days.)

My pastor recently counselled me and my wife about our marriage difficulties. He asked me point blank if I thought that I (as the man/husband) were responsible for the marriage. I didn’t give it much thought as it seemed like a no brainer that leadership equals responsibility, so I immediately said, “yes.” I kind of thought that he would segue into differentiating between what my wife was responsible for and what I was responsible for… and then hold us both accountable for our separate parts… but no… he simply left all responsibility for everything with me.

But here’s my difficulty. My wife basically feels that she is not required to hold up her side of the marriage if she is “unhaaaaapy”… after all… if she doesn’t feel inspired to behave like a true wife, she can’t just do it anyway– that would be inauthentic. In her mind… not being “true to herself” would destroy her spirit/soul. For some reason… my pastor, my wife’s girlfriends, and my wife’s big stack of relationship books have *nothing* to say to encourage her to take any responsibility.

In the case of the Church, pastors are repeatedly criticizing husbands and fathers in front of their wives and children, and they are doing this with full knowledge that the wives are already in open revolt. This is after all why they won’t ever speak on topics the wives disapprove of.

Then they walk away and expect the father to act in the role of head of the household.

This is an excellent post. One of the best I’ve read in a long time. And when they berate the men, it isn’t always for sin. Instead it is often for the alleged crime of daring to be masculine. Once the husband is totally emasculated by his church, the wife then cheats on him with an alpha. And the church is silent.

“[A]uthority and accountability, privilege and responsibility. If they don’t match up, you have problems.” – Bingo. And they don’t match up because doing so requires taking full responsibility for their position.

Everyone wants to be a “Free Rider”, as they, generally, always get it the easiest. So they argue that way. It’s much like wanting that “beach body” without a willingness to put in the work at it, the commitment needed and gain the understanding of how to do it properly. (It’s actually not that hard, it’s a matter of learning some of the basic biology)

Oh, and a lot of the split is the stupid way most people argue/media push arguments. You see this a whole lot, actually. I think the easiest example was the hysteria over Global Warming. Any question of the bad science made you a “denier”. If it’s science, it’s always open to question. And I’m sure someone will point out the way rape laws work operate by a similar method. Men have to take full responsibility for a woman’s actions, even if he himself is incapacitated.

Sorry to hear that. Unfortunately your experience is common among men seeking marriage counseling, even in churches. Most of the time marriage counseling is a waste of time for the man. The counselor and the woman gang up on the man, telling him that HE must change and HE must do better.

This problem is magnified in church or Christian counseling, because the counselor or pastor can use Scripture to support his/her positions. The implicit argument is “I have Scriptural support for my position. The Word of God backs me up on this. The Word is inerrant and perfect, and comes from God Himself. You can’t argue with Scripture. Are you calling God a liar? Are you saying God is wrong? If you are, then you’re a blasphemer and you’ll die a thousand deaths in Hell!”

Looking at businesses, I do agree with your point that criticizing subordinate leading positions has a very bad effect on the overall functionality of the companies structures, I’ve seen that many times. Then again, I think that people who are working fulltime for the church are so estranged from society that they don’t grasp the consequences of their doings and rather try to keep up the comfortable status quo.

However you look at it, though, it’s a shame (and a sham) to put such weight on husbands and then constantly chastise them in front of those supposed to look up to them. Not staying for discussion, just wanted to weigh in.

I know for myself I want to be “quadrillionupaly accountable”* because that will surely change my heart and replace my need for the Holy Spirit. I just love to take all the responsibility for anything that ever went wrong…..it just warms my submissive soul.

And I recommend that men do cut these leaders off at the knees. “If you try to destroy my family and subordinate it to your collection plate I will not attend your church.” is a good line for “Father’s” Day.

Mother’s Day is always about how hard mom works to do for everybody… how much she sacrifices… and it just goes on and on and on. Father’s Day comes along and… wait a second… we hear again about how hard mom works, how nobody truly appreciates her, and how dad is a big, lazy, stupid lunk that needs to get it in gear. Wait, what?!

That happened a few years ago and I went up to the preacher and tried to point out that slavishly sucking up to mom while kicking the dads squarely in the nads was not good. The guy deflected my criticism and then insinuated that I was oversensitive in being unable to take criticism… and that my anger was clearly due to a lack of spirituality! I was speechless.

And these same people wonder why the women are such great “prayer warriors” and why men tend not to be on board with the whole churchy church thing.

“This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
(2Ti 3:1-7)

The distinction between ministry to men and ministry to women that Empath has frequently talked about was put into different terms for me recently at a men’s retreat. Ministry to me(this retreat thankfully excepted) is most often about “fixing your stuff”. That’s the case in sermons, it’s the case for most men’s retreats, and it’s what Promise Keepers morphed into which is, IMO, the direct cause of their precipitous decline.

Ministry to women is encouraging, it’s about seeing yourself and others how God sees you, and learning to live in that.

Here’s the rub. Both genders need both types of focus. As it stands now men get pretty much only the “fix your stuff” and women get only the encouraging affirming. One other thing became clear though. The “fix your stuff” side of things most effectively happens in one on one, David/Nathaniel types of relationships or small group settings, no matter the gender. Sermons, and large group teachings, be it to men, to women, or to both, are better spent on the encouraging, affirming types of messages. I’m not suggesting that the teaching in such settings can never be challenging, or corrective, I’m just saying that such a setting is probably better suited to other types of teaching most of the time.

Side point back to Promise Keepers for a second. I went twice several years apart and the difference in tone was stark. The first time they were still sticking to their roots of being encouraging and affirming to men, teaching how to truly live in and out of God’s way of seeing us and others. The second time, which was the last time they were in my neck of the woods, the tone had changed dramatically. It was all about “step up” and fixing your stuff. Since that’s all men get from church in the first place, it’s no wonder their attendance fell off a cliff.

Mother’s Day is always about how hard mom works to do for everybody… how much she sacrifices… and it just goes on and on and on. Father’s Day comes along and… wait a second… we hear again about how hard mom works, how nobody truly appreciates her”

I was shocked(in a very good way) two years ago when the Father’s Day sermon at our church was directed to women talking about how little they understand the immense power they have to either build up or tear down their husbands through their words, actions and attitudes.

*This applies to all forms of Christianity that actually exist, as opposed to some sort of ideal that someone, somehow, should usher in some semblance to the religion that went by that name as little as fifty years ago into what passes for Christianity these days.

While I have no intention of ever seeing these films, I will note that both Fireproof and Courageous were extremely successful relative to production costs. Each cost $2M to make, but raked in $40M at the box office.

Any filmmaker would be thrilled with that sort of return. Those are stunning returns by industry standards.

A filmmaker’s success can hinge largely on adding content into films that feed a woman’s ego/insecurities (see : Titanic). Adding even a few minutes of woman-porn into any film can make the difference between profit and loss, and thus such knowledge can often make the difference between a floundering filmmaker and a successful one.

This sort of destructive leadership dynamic really only leads to two outcomes.

1. Empty pews – best case scenario were the women respect their husbands and leave the Church with their husbands and families to worship somewhere else; or
2. Pews full of women and reformed sluts looking for ‘redemption’. No men in sight as their need to fill the leadership role in their lives and families is torn to shreds.

Couldn’t serve a bunch of Mammon, vagina worshipers more right. It’s just such a pity that when the Churches can no longer pay the bills that these lovely buildings of worship are sold to Islamic groups.

As a Christian I will not endorse TFH in his ‘Sunday morning nightclub,’ nor will I promote the ideal, but he is bang on the money when it comes to the predators of gold-digging reformed sluts that are enabled by not having proper leadership in Church. It’s a sorry story of the complete devastation brought about by the -isms of our age.

“Three generations, Christianity will be forgotten in this country. They will have only themselves to blame.”

The main reason successful religions have spread over the world is that they have forced constructive conduct between the genders and gave beta men a reason to contribute to society. The people who then adopted these religions out competed those who did not have similar patriarchal spiritual beliefs.

If promoting patriarchy is the function of religion, then Christianity has morphed into a kind of anti-religion in recent times. Its political focus since the 20th century has been to promote the “social justice” welfare state. The results of these efforts is to subsidize the reproduction of children born to single mothers (women who by definition aren’t faithful Christians if they go to church at all) while sabotaging the reproductive chances of men who adhere to traditional sexual values. Over time this alone creates a shrinking base of intact families from which to draw the next generation of church attendants.

This effect will produce a similar result as what happened to the Shakers. Family formation and children raised from birth within the church has always been the most effective way to increase numbers. Religions that are antagonistic to family formation and depend chiefly on converts tend to fade away.

I understand the sunday morning nightclub perspective. But the feminist tone of most churches left me cold some years ago. Listening to that drivel would be unnecessary masochistic. And perhaps not worth the effort. A few divorce rapes may or may not set the betas straight. But whilst they continue to white knight and bow the knee to the nearest vagina, increasing the female notch count may have little effect on their willingness to beta up for twenty years of child support payments.

I hear women speak as to how the man needs to be strong and the spiritual leader of the house. Yet, they turn around and systematically tear down everything he as a leader is supposed to be. So his only contribution to leadership ends up being willing to die for his wife. That part they will take.

Let’s face it: women are to look up to their husbands as if though he was Jesus. That is submission. After all, Sarah called Abraham Lord. That doesn’t depend on whether her husband is doing a good job at all as the leader. It is a commandment.

Similarily, the man is to love his wife unconditionally irregardless of whether she submits or not. He is also required to love her to the point of giving his life to protect hers.

The name “Abba” comes from the word meaning “Source”. We as men are to be the source to our families in all areas and we can’t forget it. The moment our wife or someone else tries to step in we are to not allow that.

Yes as a Christian we are also called to be serveants even or our wife. Jesus was the Serveant King for sure. Nonetheless, we still follow Him and submit to Him. When a husband submits to his wife it is in a different matter as his wife submitting to him.

Maybe its beside the point but I would think a congregation of shamed men seeking atonement would be more generous at the donation box. In my opinion you could interpret the shaming of men in the church akin to the abusive wife shaming the husband into forking over more of his earnings. The constant shaming drives men into a constant state of approval seeking and into a submissive (beta) mindset.

On a vaguely related note, I was passing through Lynchburg, Virginia yesterday and stopped to get a bite at a Panera. It ended up being just outside of Liberty University. While I was in there, I saw exactly two guys that didn’t come across as gay. They’ve emasculated Christian men so much that most of the guys there were acting exactly the same as the women, except that the men were at least moderately fit.

Yeah, I’ve seen that. But I’m not really sure what he’s talking about as to married men, other than the hypothetical wife beaters who I have yet to encounter in real life. Maybe porn.

But, even still, that guy’s pretty extreme. In the typical protestant or catholic church, what are they saying to married men to shame them? That they look at porn too much? They don’t work enough or make enough money or do enough chores around the house? Just curious.

Hey Dalrock how is the preacher with game church doing that you posted about. I see no reason at all for any guy to marry. There is just no reason at all for it. I even went to Athol kaye site and read that for a few and it is just a guy who’s wife made a choice. he is still a prisoner just in a fully equipped cell.

I think if a woman is truly submitted to God, submitting to a man is easier since, if she trusts God as she should, she will trust that God will lead her man right. If she trusts God, she trusts that God made a man to lead his family and that he is capable, if flawed, as she is also flawed.

It’s just the relative tone that’s involved. This isn’t a new phenomenon, either, it’s happened long enough that even those that have been outside Churchianity 10-20 years will know it. It’s a subtle thing (they won’t hit you over the head with it), but if you are observant you will see it. Although if you listen to the whole sermon of Mark Driscoll that is lifted from, you’ll hear him say much more than that against men.

A great example which happens every year is the Mothers Day/Fathers Day contrast. When Mother’s Day comes along, usually there’s something said to celebrate women and especially celebrate mothers and all their feminine qualities and affirm them in their paths, whatever those may be, sinful or not. But when Father’s Day comes along, the tone changes. It’s nothing to celebrate fathers, manhood, or anything like that. It’s to denegrate the men in attendance for not being good enough fathers to their children, not good enough men to their wives, and not good enough men in the church at large. In other words, it glorifies the women and shames the men.

Another quick example: Women have support groups, men have accountability groups.

In other words, it’s basically saying that God screwed up the first time when He created man, and He needed the second shot to get it right. In Churchianity, women are sinless, blameless, holy, and wholesome while men are vile, base, sinful creatures which need controlled. If women sin, it’s because of the influence of men in their lives, NOT because of their own sin nature. Of course all of this paragraph is the standard false teaching out of the Feminist Gospel that most Churchian environments operate under these days.

(For those that are interested in learning more about this in Churchianity, Why Men Hate Going To Church is a great book to get insight into the effects of the feminist nature in Churchianity. I disagree with his doctrine at certain points, but you’d be hard pressed to do better to see an explanation of the effects of these things)

Bskillet81 made a great post on his own blog today about the effects of these kinds of things spoken of in the original post. When one is exposed to these things continually, it creates the kind of entitlement complex and narcissism that is spoken of of the single women in this post. When they are lifted up, affirmed, and esteemed in this way, especially when the topic of “selecting your mate” comes up, they then want a “perfect man” to come along, either by their physical standards or by their spiritual standards. That said, there is no perfect man other than Jesus, so they pine away their lives looking for someone like Him more than someone like themselves.

Ultimately the answer that is going to solve things in these regards is for women to be called into account for their sins, and men affirmed that they are indeed good in the sight of God. As long as the open rebellion of the women against God won’t get put down, nothing will ever change. Those involved need to realize that they need to humble themselves and stop being haughty or God will do it for them. Unfortunately, the time to do that may have already past.

For years my husband was told by churches to be a leader, but not how to be a leader(at least not a strong one). I was instructed to be submissive, but not shown what submission really was. At this time in our marriage we found the dynamic truly works for us; he is a strong, masculine leader(alpha), and I defer to his leadership(submissive), so much has fallen into place for us. The problem is we can’t really talk to anyone because the way it’s viewed is that he’s a bully and I’m a doormat. Go figure!

The duties of both men and women should be preached on, if your church isn’t doing that, consider a new church. (or start a new group) We are to love our wives, and they are to submit to our authority. As someone once wrote that I read, there is nothing about forcing her to submit. She has to do it willingly. There is literally nothing you can do in the matter, just love her and focus on loving her better. It is her loss in the judgement if she doesn’t.
I will be honest, I think I have seen only one example that even comes close to what the bible says in this matter. They are an old couple in their 70s/80s. I would say they are unusual for even their age group. This doesn’t invalidate the passages on this matter, it just shows how messed up we are as couples at this time in history.

@okrahead: “if your preacher is a hireling, find a new congregation to attend.”

I heartily recommend this. If you are attending a church that has abdicated its responsibilities, then by all means find a better one. There is nothing quite like attending a rock-solid church that is led by a man of God who preaches the Word without fear.

Incidentally, I wish you the best of luck trying to find such a church. Dalrock has a page on this blog where he tracks churches that have a low divorce rate. The last time I checked, that page has nothing on it but chirping crickets. The odds of you finding a good local church is astonishingly low. Except in rare cases, picking a church is like picking a politician – you are left choosing between the lesser of two evils (or the evil of two lessers). There are times when I seriously wonder if going to church is even worth the trouble. If the only choices are led by people who preach lies, attack men, and try to destroy your marriage, then I’m not sure church is doing you any favors. There are times when it is better to build your own support group. The early church was simply groups of like-minded people who met together and helped one another as best they could. There’s a lot to be said for that. There are people out there who understand. Find them, and spend time with them. It may seem like you are alone, but you are not.

The same thing can be said for marriage. It would be fantastic if the church would stand up and preach it like it is. If your local church does that, then you are truly blessed – stick with them. Failing that, men are left to get by as best they can – and resources like this blog are invaluable. It is quite encouraging to find a group of fellow men who understand the problem and are on the same page. I just wish I had more time to participate.

It seems to me American Christians consign too much responsibility to their pastors or ministers over their personal lives, maybe it’s a product of socialism or just the devolution of personal responsibility. Whereas the Catholics and Orthodox suffer from the cult of the special priesthood that have some magical intercessionary powers, despite their history of lay saints and St Symeon the New Theologian’s adherence to (lay) Symeon the Studite.

I think Dalrock and the like are at the forefront of a new lay revival among the elect that as shown that the established churches are rotten from the inside out (ala Bella Dodd’s confessions as a reformed communist infiltrator of the Catholic church).

Great article Dalrock !!!
This is the consequence of intentionally faulty teaching by pastors not holding their flock accountable to Christ and picking up cues from secular media vs. the scriptures.
Western Christianity has never emphasized “discipleship accountability” (daily denying one self, picking up ones cross, and following Jesus ) from the pulpit despite having a church nearly on every corner. Real “Discipleship” holds BOTH parties responsible to Christ and to each other.
If pastors were to really teach real “discipleship” and the scriptures – I seriously suspect 75% of the congregation would depart.

In review of Driscolls video – it is feminized money grabbing on the highest order. He used partial truths to attack men to evoke serious guilt/shame and then take up a offering (letting a situation “cook” and then exploding is “mostly” a feminine trait. Its is “demonic vomit” on the highest order – nowhere in the scriptures (OT/NT) is that type of address used to the best of my knowledge. G_D, prophets, and apostles are very much ” reap and sow ” and “action / consequence” tone.

The real men/women of God I know and have seen would not allow behavior he mentioned to occur in the pew or the congregation while Driscoll self admittedly witnesses it in the pulpit with previous mentioning it prior ( I can’t remember a single sermon the last 20+ years where lust, worldly goods, and self will isn’t taught to turn away from).

In summary, if Driscoll rantings are considered the “best” of Christian evangelical teaching, then allow me to suggest to pray like Daniel (Dan 9:4-23).

It would be fantastic if the church would stand up and preach it like it is. If your local church does that, then you are truly blessed – stick with them.

Even more fantastic is a group of people (that’s what a Biblical church really is) that upholds all the Scripture like it is, doesn’t pick and choose, and actually DOES what is written. That would be the refreshing part. It’s easy to become the Bible Bowl champion and seek the knowledge of what the Bible actually says and speak about it, if people in the body were so inclined to learn it. But doing it is the part where the majority fall down. Jesus even sets this measure (Matthew 7:24-29).

Johnycomelately writes:

It seems to me American Christians consign too much responsibility to their pastors or ministers over their personal lives, maybe it’s a product of socialism or just the devolution of personal responsibility.

I would say this is actually more tradition that has been handed down over hundreds of years. Man has always had the tendency to set someone between him and God, and this is in the form of the “preacher”, “pastor”, and so on. This division has even been laid out and formalized, calling these men “clergy” and the rest “lay persons”.

Then they lay rights for all spiritual service on his head. It gives the man who is deified like this excuse to lust after power and influence which takes hold of him and makes him “twice a son of hell” (to quote Jesus, I believe what was said of the Pharisees is good to speak of regarding these people).

Then it gives the people at large an excuse to be spiritually lazy and lax in their own assigned service before the Lord. Both are indeed sinful, and will not bring fruit in the end.

So I take anything a minister has to say with a grain of salt.

Good policy. Always check out anyone with the Teacher and with the Scripture. This theme occurs time and again in Scripture, yet it is not taught (for obvious reasons) and is not practiced. Therefore, most will take the word of the Deified Ones as it comes from Jesus Himself (this tradition is about 1700 years old), and discount the actual Scripture and what it says.

There are many things like this that bring me much sorrow as it comes to the average church.

I’ve been reading you for a while, but not commented most. I’m fortunate to attend a church where on the last Fathers Day the pastor, who happens to be my own father, made a big point of calling the men up front, honoring them, praying for them, and blessing them. And then he gave a chance for people who wanted to give a tribute to their fathers to come up and say something and made this comment: “Now I don’t want anyone to come up here and talk about their mother and how she had to be both father and mother to them. She may be a good woman and have been a good mother, but she isn’t a father. She can’t be. It takes a man to be a father. You can say something about her on Mother’s Day, but today is for the men.”

I’m also reminded of something my (now deceased) mother said years ago to the women who would come to her for counseling, since she was the pastor’s wife. After patiently listening to them complain about how their husbands weren’t doing this or that thing she would say, “So what does that have to do with you?” And they would complain some more, and she would say, “Yeah, well all of that might be true, but even if it is, that doesn’t have anything to do with you. God will hold them accountable for that. You’re not responsible for what he does. You’re responsible to do what God calls you to do as a wife regardless of what he does.”

She was a wise woman and happily married to my father for more than 30 years, until death did they part.

Thanks for the mention Dalrock, I’m on the flip side of the time zones so Im out of phase 180 degrees in reading and writing.

There is so painfully much to talk about in the dynamic you raise. That so many men actually see these sermons and such as being pro men is sickening. It was sad, its gone sickening. To a man, ask them if their church is good for men and they will say oh yesseree my pastor is manly and all about men and he is a mans man and blah yadda, shut UP!

Nearly all women, and sadly most men see the current situation as being equilibrium, balanced.
When you combine the shallow thinking so prevalent, the inability to understand generality and analogy, and the measure of things done only through ones feelings about their own tiny little existence, you could shovel any form of crap into the laps of men you want to and most will just adjust their seating but stay comfortable.

These men who weep and nod on fathers day yearly, they truly make me sick. “What a great service today eh empath? We got some hard truth for a change, good on pastor for being so bold to speak to men that way”……oh, that new sermon? Same as the old sermon. Good gravy men you are getting what you deserve with this junk if you dont grab a pair and tell the pastor and anyone else who will listen that its bad, wrong, life sucking and relationship killing, hurting kids and generating social pathologies through the divorce process, suicides and addictions and failed children and depression and a host of problems find AT ROOT these out of whack junk on men, and the over emphasis on pandering to the modern female disease of low self esteem. That is a toxic mixture, not satisfied to tell the gals that they have value as Christs followers, nope, gotta press down on men and tell women they can play holy spirit because they are so much more moral.

My church does all this routinely, I cannot find one that doesnt. But I keep talking to the pastor, who knows maybe he will slip in some controversial comment like, oh I dont know, “does everyone realize that women sin?”

@endwatcher
As someone once wrote that I read, there is nothing about forcing her to submit. She has to do it willingly. There is literally nothing you can do in the matter, just love her and focus on loving her better. It is her loss in the judgment if she doesn’t.
———————————————————————
Thats all true, but saying it feeds the beast. You are repeating the truth but in the way that it then gets all twisted up and turned into, not an admonition to men and women, but an admonition to men, and an apology to women. Preaching Ephesians marriage order is preached from a perspective of apologizing to women for how men have taken the passages (allegedly, the problem is nearly non existent of men running rough shod but treated as if its 90% of couples)
To bring correction to the issue, we need not repeat the admonitions to men about whether we are to force submission or not, that has been the central focus of submission teaching for 4 decades, lets take out all qualifiers, diluents, and weasel words and let it stand….simply.

@johnnycomelately
I do not think Americans are taking preachers on board our personal lives too much….not at all in general. What American women do is police and vet preachers based on any degree of discomfort foist on team woman. There is hardly ANY matter that is personal even addressed, except things that make her emotions swim in vibrant colors.
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Finally someone mentioned the other manifestation of this, that is the ministry offerings, meaning look at the headers under mens ministry and under womens ministry….mens are corrective and about accountability, and womens are self esteem boosters because its de rigueur for women to claim low self esteem in church these days, its a well spring of empathy for low self image, the more they are empowered the worse they claim to feel.
Couples ministry will be about relationships, which is code for how she can fix the man, and also its a great source for more drama, because we all know that women read all the books on marriage which means they care more right? NOPE it means they can mine the suckers for issues they never imagined and then suddenly see them manifest in their marriage.

I have on occasion pondered whether these men are overwhelmed by the cognitive dissonance between what they believe (white knighting, men bad, women good framework) and their actual experience of the world (be it divorce rape, constant shaming, loss of children, women grievously sinning, church not holding women to be accountable etc).

I have been contemplating that as people come to face to face with reality, they react in a limited number of ways.

They can deny. Their perspective is vigourously defended despite facts and evidence to the contrary. Nawalt.

They can acquiesce. Bow, scrape an defer. Suppress any vestigal conscience of manhood.

They can acknowledge that times change, and this is just how it is.

They can grow cynical, seeing reality but not wanting to internalise its implications.

Or they can take the red pill. And be falsely accused, shamed, browbeaten and harried to recant.

I acknowledge that some men feel they have no option but suicide. This is an avoidable tragedy, that men are stripped of their family, their work, their self respect, lose their confidence to be productive and in many cases see nothing left to live for.

I have been a Lutheran Pastor for 13 years and I have never once preached on such stupid crap as “happy marriages.”

As a pastor, I am not called by God to tell you how to have a happy family, but to tell you early and often that Christ died on a cross and rose from the dead in order to save you from eternal death. I proclaim a masculine God who while you were still his enemy, dared to call you His friends and then He took the bullet that had your name on it. He jumped on the grenade so that mankind might live. Then He rose from the dead and gave you the promise that you too will be raised on the last day.

Any pastors who are not proclaiming the forgiveness of sins for all of mankind are simply masturbating in public and should be treated as such.

I am appalled that so called pastors are wasting rare opportunities to bring the healing salve of the atonement of Christ to hurting souls. I am outraged that these fools are using the opportunity instead to beat men with the rod of the law and telling them that they aren’t loving God or their wives enough. NEWS FLASH – NO ONE DOES!

What’s with all the touchy feely, emotionally driven, psycho babble horse fritters? Flee that crap! As for me, I need to hear every day about my Savior’s heroic sacrifice that allows me to live.

Do you remember when Jesus went off on husbands for not taking out the trash? NEITHER DO I! He didn’t take on human flesh in order to give us pop psychology, He came to save humanity from itself and HE DID IT! That’s what Christianity is, not this other junk. Man this stuff pisses me off.
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Okay, I just took time to listen to Driscol before hitting the send on this. He is a moronic douche. Will keeping your hand off of your girlfriend’s butt get you into heaven? If I heard this live, I would get up, walk out and wipe the dog crap off my feet on the way out.

By the way, women physically and emotionally abuse men every bit as often as men do women. I deal with this stuff all the time – BUT NEVER FROM THE PULPIT! Where is his sermon yelling at women for daring to disrespect their man? What an ass!

commentor — “The problem is not a lack of knowledge; it is a lack of obedience. As long as civil and criminal law is on their side they will continue to behave as they do. After all, they have every incentive to rebel. Who is going to stop them? The church? The government? The media?”

spot-on

they will NOT obey, yet the state and church demand we marry females whose disobedience to maleness, fatherhood, and husbandship is not merely well-demonstrated, but feted and funded by the culture!

our nations are feminist, thus our females are conditioned into rebellion against God and masculne authority

this post dovetails with the prior posts on marriage, and why marriage to modern females, already addicted by their cultures to empowerment, willfulness, and disobedience, is often disastrous

by the time females are at what our feminist cultures consider marriageable age — 25 to 40 — they are not gonna be told by ANYBODY, man nor God, what to do . . . and no sermon or biblical injunction will change their hearts, b/c all the motivations are for continued willfullness and disobedience

by the end of high school, much less college, the damage is irreversibly done — not so much to their bodies, as to their spirits and minds

the only way to interrupt the secular/feminist conditioning cycle = girls raised by fathers in REAL christian households, acting under biblical precepts (female obeys male etc)

BEFORE the culture can indoctrinate and buy females off with endless material goodies and empowerments, and educated and employ them (in preference over men/fathers) you must betroth them to biblically obedient men — the two crucial elements requisite are virginity and obedience — when the female is passed directly from the authority of a Godly dad, to a Godly husband, she presents no opportunities for demonic intervention (as Adam is on the job this time! lol)

sooner this happens after menses, the better — instead of 20 years of using her SMV in selfish and destructive ways, the young woman quickly becomes a LIFELONG helpmeet and comfort to her loving husband — instead of a lure and sexual distraction to society, jumping from hypergamy fix to hypergamy fix, destroying or jeopardizing the sacred marriages of others

the older the female in western cultures, the more unlikely to obey — however, there are exceptions, e.g. the “chrisymisty” videographer i mentioned recently — she’s late-twenties mebbe (?) and thus past her genetic repro-peak, but expresses obedience to God, to Christ, and to her father, as well as denunciation of feminism and misandry in general

in such authentic cases of fidelity, age is far less relevant — despite our feminist culture, “christymisty” is at no more risk of wifely disobedience than a young girl, possibly even LESS a risk — she already gladly submits to her dad under a biblical framework, so she’ll submit to a good (strong Christian) husband

the male and female cant be re-united the world’s way, only God’s way

Jesus (thru Malachi) instructed us to restore the relationship between fathers and families, especially fathers and sons, the original and foundational relationship — and only male headship of family, and husbandly headship of wife, can accomplish Christ’s command

This comment:
they are not gonna be told by ANYBODY, man nor God, what to do . . . and no sermon or biblical injunction will change their hearts, b/c all the motivations are for continued
willfullness and disobedience
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What do we do with that? Is it hyperbole or is it objective truth being asserted? I ask because do we not have the mantra with God all is possible, all things through Christ who strengthens, etc etc?

How has the lord of the air gotten SOOOO powerful in this? Its just so easy for her to dismiss this and any other admonishment with “well men disobey too ya know”. or “you cant generalize”, or whatever inch deep mile wide reflex cliche gets them round the facts.

Its like some post apocalyptic movie I guess, where people, the few left say they should have seen it coming

I agree, the Cog Diss is amazing, I used to post at the Family Life forums, (which were closed down incidentally because the same evangelical feminists that have run men off from Christian forums did it over there too) and there was a man there that embodied the white knight who was deeply conflicted and didnt know it. Needless to say he was a hero of the ladies.

His wife had an affair, and divorced him. He explained how he was called, scripturally, to “out give her demands”….no matter what she asked for he increased it, that sort of thing. He was a very nice guy, but made me so sad, as he would tell of running errands at his ex’ beck and call, and he was devastated, he was hurt and damaged so badly it was truly tragic, and he was a staunch defender of her and how he deserved the treatment and the very best he could do was do as he was called and take care of her (even as she was living with the other guy) for the rest of her life.

Then the guy, who lived in Utah or somewhere, met a woman from Texas, I forget how, and he walked through the courtship with the women on the forum, again, same women from Christian forums. They swooned as he described how he would call his GF and they would read devotionals to each other, they emailed prayers and scripture, he wore on his sleeve his layers of fences to prevent sexual activity with her. He laid it on the gals on the forum thick, saying how the woman in Texas could do no wrong, how her appearance was utterly and completely not important . I would ask about how he met her knowing there was visual attraction first, since they didnt know each other, and he would absolutely masterfully avoid the question so he would have to make zero mention of looks.

This man was so far off even white knights would call him a white knight. Its as if he took on board every and all the stuff we are talking about here, about the goodness of women, the badness of men, to say he effaced himself is an understatement. I raise his example to say that he and the women who so supported him is one end game of the system we are in now, the other is dystopian ruin, my vote for the later. This kind of who can out humble and efface the next one removes everything that it is to be a man, good and bad, right and wrong, and leaves women clamoring later in life for a spine in her man. I am certain, because Ive seen similar just not so extreme, that a woman who saw that as attractive would eventually grow to have less than zero respect for the man. Its one thing to be the guy i describe crying on fathers day, or the couple on the video in the mega church where his wife is explaining how he finally became the man he was called to be (meaning he submitted to her) , this is occasionally, it is quite another to literally and figuratively weep in guilt and shame wallowing daily, just because you are a man.

The man called himself a username that included the word “thankful”, and it was intended to say he was thankful to his ex wife……

But you turn on the TV and dad is always a goofball clutz. And you hear the stories of the deadbeat dads abandoning their families and unwilling to make their child support payments. And you go to counselling and you think you’ve maybe missed something somewhere. You have this idea that women have the hots for men that can commit– consensual sex in a long term relationship is what they say they want. And unlike all those other losers, I’m serious. I’ll show you all! THIS is commitment!

And you go to church and think… surely I messed up somewhere. I’m selfish. I should lay down my life for her. I have failed to truly love her…. You try everything. And the narrative is consistent from every direction. And if anything is wrong, it’s because you haven’t changed enough… given enough… sacrificed enough. And sometimes you wonder… does this really make sense? But you don’t hear anything that frames it any different. If you think you’re special or different or an outlier… surely that’s got to be just you rationalizing your own lack of commitment.

And you go to a marriage conference– your church pays for you to go. And you sit there thinking… maybe out of all these books and speakers… someone understands what I’m going through. And you hear all of these testimonies of guys that made more changes… confessed to their wives… asked for forgiveness…. And these guys are all spiritual now. And… yes… when these guys turn to God… *that’s* what inspired their wives… that’s it… and then the women… they see that their husbands in a new light… and everyone lives happily ever after.

But you don’t hear anything about what you’re going through. There’s nothing there at all about the women ever being arbitrary, hateful, cold, evil, unloving…. It’s all the guy’s fault. If there’s a problem… you know… the men just need to repent. That’s the message.

But you start going up to people… and you’re like, hey! This stuff does not speak to what is really going on with me. I’m the one that invests in the relationship. I’m the one that is committed. I am the one willing to do anything to make this work. I’m not one of those deadbeat guys. My wife is just hanging back and blaming me for everything and is unwilling to reciprocate or even meet me half way or even a quarter way. Nothing in your stupid conference talks about how to deal with this. There is not one sliver of a hint of what I’m experiencing here. What is up with this…?

And then maybe an organizer type pulls you aside… to pray with you… and under his breath… he whispers that yeah… divorce is being initiated by the women more and more. We counsel people and the guy wants the family to stay together, but the women just don’t care. Not one bit. It doesn’t fit the narrative. But the books and the speakers and the sermons and the tapes and the little movie clips that teach spiritual principles by making analogies to football… they all have to keep that narrative going, right?

But you start going up to people… and you’re like, hey! This stuff does not speak to what is really going on with me. I’m the one that invests in the relationship. I’m the one that is committed. I am the one willing to do anything to make this work. I’m not one of those deadbeat guys. My wife is just hanging back and blaming me for everything and is unwilling to reciprocate or even meet me half way or even a quarter way. Nothing in your stupid conference talks about how to deal with this. There is not one sliver of a hint of what I’m experiencing here. What is up with this…?

Welcome to the real world. The people selling this stuff–and that’s all it is, selling stuff–know that most guys are there because their harpy wives pushed them into it. So the goal of this kind of stuff is to appeal to the woman’s Rationalization Hamster.

What I wish I had done. Tell her that 1) frivolous divorce is sin. 2) Ergo, threatening frivolous divorce is also a sin. 3) It isn’t your job to make her happy. 4) You’re not having any more discussions about the entire issue with her. She can shut up and choose to be happy, but you’re not going to let her boss you around anymore.

Has anyone here been following what the Pope has started to purge Feminism from the ranks of the nuns? The response from the head of the Mary Knoll Sisters, whose remarks at a conference of “religious” women set this off, was wholly defiant.

The premise of her speech was that Eve’s actions in the garden were the correct and necessary step in the evolution of humanity towards being gods themselves. She has totally absorbed the message of the serpent to Eve. These women have moved to worshipping themselves as goddesses. This is the leader of a “religious” order in a supposedly patriarchal and hierarchal church that has taken a vow of obedience.

The problem I see is the church (sorry I am speaking as a Catholic) is unwilling to cut off its arm if the arm is dragging it to sin. The whole bunch should be closed down and the leaders excommunicated from the church. Anything less is just going to encourage more rebellion against the church and god.

It’s more of a coven these days!
My folks church parades around a convicted pedophile
as an example of a properly reformed male..
Needless to say it is sickening to attend.The man all have that hung-dog look-and the women have that Cobra like wicked defiant stare.
The pastor plays to that!

The premise of her speech was that Eve’s actions in the garden were the correct and necessary step in the evolution of humanity towards being gods themselves. She has totally absorbed the message of the serpent to Eve.

In the “nothing new under the sun” category, this was actually the message of certain forms of gnosticism that attempted to infect the early church. In fact, some scholars argue the pastoral epistles to Timothy were written by Paul to Timothy instructing him how to fight an incipient form of this gnosticism that had infected the church in Ephesus. Thus, we have:

Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.
–1 Tim. 2:11-15

Which appears to be Paul making clear that what Eve did was wicked, not good. And then we have the exhortation to watch out for “old wive’s tales” (1 Tim. 4:7) and then:

For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
–2 Tim. 3:6-7

If you were to graph men’s and women’s SMV curve, they would have different shapes and peak at different times. In a society / culture where marriage was truly until death did you part, these relationships would weather these discrepancies. There was enough legal and social leverage to enforce the original agreement / contract which meant that both parties had to stick to the plan. The end result were win-win marriages where both sides cooperated, particularly on behalf of their children, and would work towards their common interests even when it did not suit each individual within that relationship at any one particular moment.

The problem we have with marriage 2.0 is that it is always subject to change. No-fault divorce make is such at each side has to keep one foot outside the marriage lest it fail. Rather than both people staying committed and staying together each spouse has an incentive to jockey for position over the other. This has been a cancer to marriage because the tension is bound to rise every time the discrepancy in SMV grows. For women this means divorcing before they hit their expiration date if they plan on leaving for greener pastures. For men it means not marrying too young when their SMV is low compared to their peers. Pandora’s Box has been opened.

The problem is that in a win-lose marriage, there is no reason for the other spouse not to continuously tear down the other. If her status is relative to his, then she gains by his loss. This is also true for any other relationships where a person puts their status ahead of those they purport to serve. Being status oriented creatures, women have always done this among themselves but in a society where gender roles are continuously blurred it is this sort of catty behavior becomes the norm.

Excellent observation Dal. In fact this dynamic so permeates modern churchianity that our friends who produced the divorce porn blockbuster Fireproof have also carried this over into Courageous – the story of 4 suburban police officers (there’s an awful lot of black gang drug dealers in white suburbia for some reason) who suffer from the genetic flaw of being born with penises and thus have to constantly reevaluate how horribly inadequate christians they are whilst providing for their single income families on just a policeman’s salary.

The plot essentially mirror exactly what you’re describing in this post.

I look forward to that Dalrock. On a side note, I’ve tried to have discussions about firespoof with some people at church. They looked at me like I had a penis growing out of my forehead. They instantly went red-alert, shield up! Had the same discussion with a bible studying army buddy of mine and he was actually receptive. You could tell he’d never thought of the movie that way but I could start to see a glimmer of recognition. He’s very intelligent and is beginning to realize his cognitive dissonance. I think he will be a future red-piller but he has a long way to go. My ‘brothers and sisters’ at church though – not a chance. Not in that enviornment. The parable of the seed on the rocky soil comes to mind.

“Hey Dalrock how is the preacher with game church doing that you posted about. I see no reason at all for any guy to marry. There is just no reason at all for it. I even went to Athol kaye site and read that for a few and it is just a guy who’s wife made a choice. he is still a prisoner just in a fully equipped cell.”

YES!!!!

I’m married, and have since swallowed the red pill…TO LATE!
Now I can “game” and try to mind bend wifey to be civil, but any married man with a brain knows that any time cupcake wants to she can devastate her man/family.
Every married man in western democracies is living with a hand grenade, rattlesnake, time bomb…whatever. We are all prisoners of wifey’s most current emotion. This is why guys like me blog in places like this…a voice shouting in the wilderness…beware!
It is my duty to the newest crop of single men.

I’m not going to do the Sunday Morning Nightclub thing. First, I’m married. Second, it’s blasphemous. You’re suggesting going to church 1). for any purpose other than to praise God and learn about His teachings; and 2). For the express purpose of finding someone to fornicate with.

IMHO there is a difference between voting with your feet and actively working to subvert the church is trying to do – even if the church is severely misguided in many ways.

So lately, whenever i hear the phrase i respond by making it clear that it was never the husbands job to kowtow to the flighty, changing moods of his emotion led spouse. It has sparked some interesting discussions. But much of the time it is accepted as standard wisdom, that the husbands job is to meet his spouses whim, to make her happy.

Christ died on a cross and rose from the dead in order to save you from eternal death. I proclaim a masculine God who while you were still his enemy, dared to call you His friends and then He took the bullet that had your name on it. He jumped on the grenade so that mankind might live. Then He rose from the dead and gave you the promise that you too will be raised on the last day.

I am appalled that so called pastors are wasting rare opportunities to bring the healing salve of the atonement of Christ to hurting souls. I am outraged that these fools are using the opportunity instead to beat men with the rod of the law and telling them that they aren’t loving God or their wives enough. NEWS FLASH – NO ONE DOES!

I always took the opportunity to speak or relate the word of God to anyone as a privilege to be undertaken out of fear. James 3:1 speaks to this, but I always liked the use of the word “herald” in this regard. Heralds are the ones that were sent as messengers of the king. If the message was willfully not delivered or willfully changed, there were always severe consequences to be brought upon the herald. I know personally I pray much on anything set before me before I were to present it, and ask the Lord afterwards if I need to repent of anything said or done that was incorrect. While my delivery is always imperfect, I definitely always pray that what needs to be said be said.

Unfortunately, so many treat the opportunity to teach in any form, be it proctoring a Bible Study Class, or even speaking of theology in places such as this as an act of another chosen profession (I can choose to be a plumber or a preacher), or as a flippant academic exercise. That said, I’d rather have Christ and nothing but, forget the trappings of Churchianity that would neglect to call women as they are before God.

bskillet81 wrote:

The premise of her speech was that Eve’s actions in the garden were the correct and necessary step in the evolution of humanity towards being gods themselves. She has totally absorbed the message of the serpent to Eve.

In the “nothing new under the sun” category, this was actually the message of certain forms of gnosticism that attempted to infect the early church.

I may do a blog post on this at some point in the future.

I agree. Given all the wrong interpretations of Genesis 2-3 I’ve heard through various pastors and various groups desiring to “protect the sanctity of marriage”, a correct and full interpretation would be very fruitful.

Dalrock, you nailed it. The really nasty aspect in this message just can’t be over-emphasized: The problem isn’t merely that Christian spokespersons are trying to establish female moral superiority. If that were all there was to it, such a message could be taken at face value and either accepted or rejected. The problem is that the message of female moral superiority is sandwiched with yet another message to the Christian to “man up”; “be the patriarch in the home”; “be the head of the household”. It’s clear that one or the other message is being offered in bad faith. Every man (and woman) hearing it can’t help but see the contradiction: if the female truly is such a morally superior form, why are we asking the male to be the moral or spiritual leader of the family? The two just don’t match up.

The solution is simple. Whenever one asks another to fill a role (such as the role of “patriarch of the home”), the ask carries with it an obligation to sustain that person in the role. And “sustain” in turn means to “to support, hold, or bear up from below; bear the weight of, as a structure.” In other words, it takes work and effort to sustain another. It isn’t easy or instantly gratifying–nor was it intended to be. And if you can’t make that sacrifice to sustain another, then don’t pretend to ask in good faith that they take the call!

“I’m not going to do the Sunday Morning Nightclub thing. First, I’m married. Second, it’s blasphemous. You’re suggesting going to church 1). for any purpose other than to praise God and learn about His teachings; and 2). For the express purpose of finding someone to fornicate with.”

“I’m not going to do the Sunday Morning Nightclub thing. First, I’m married. Second, it’s blasphemous. You’re suggesting going to church 1). for any purpose other than to praise God and learn about His teachings; and 2). For the express purpose of finding someone to fornicate with.

IMHO there is a difference between voting with your feet and actively working to subvert the church”

John Q, you raise a good point. But he’s making a larger point and I sympathize with it. His point is to expose the church as full of hypocrites. It claims to be holy, righteous and set apart. Its women claim to be paragons of virtue who walk the walk. They claim to be looking for good men to marry. The church says it wants to help find husbands for these women.

The truth is the church is corrupt. Many of its women are vipers who only talk the talk. They are looking for alpha men for hookups. The church in truth simply wants to get these women married off to burnish its outward image.

@an observer
”
I’m not going to do the Sunday Morning Nightclub thing. First, I’m married. Second, it’s blasphemous. You’re suggesting going to church 1). for any purpose other than to praise God and learn about His teachings; and 2). For the express purpose of finding someone to fornicate with.

IMHO there is a difference between voting with your feet and actively working to subvert the church is trying to do – even if the church is severely misguided in many ways.”

As a part of the laity movement, I think you have seriously misidentified the Church, that place the AF Tech operates in is best described a a whore and it is acting accordingly (not that I’m recommending his behavior any more than you).

What do we do with that? Is it hyperbole or is it objective truth being asserted? I ask because do we not have the mantra with God all is possible, all things through Christ who strengthens, etc etc?”

hi Empatho, no i dont think characterizing western females (including churchers) as being in mass disobedience to God and man is hyperbole

as with the example of christymisty, this disobedience is not total, and probably my comments inferred a totality unfairly — there is a (v small) minority of females cleaving to God, sincerely trying to please Him a la Sarah, by honoring and obeying the male (fathers, husbands, AND the other men in society)

yup jesus can save-out anybody he wants, anytime he wants, but he’s not gonna do it in contravention to our free will . . . you know?

sure “all is possible” with God etc, but that is NOT a blanket Free Redeem Card for rebellious western females

“How has the lord of the air gotten SOOOO powerful in this”

that would be to re-tell all of history again

it’s enough to know, as Christ and the bible often warn, that evil (both organized demonic activity and human wickedness) increase on the planet until the big scrub-up that the OT prophets called the Lord’s Day — conditions deteriorate in these end-times as christ described, in analog with the “days of Noah” — the years immedeately preceding the flood were saturated with demonic activity and organized human wickedness (essentially, soft slavery under political tyrannies, quite similar to what we have now)

the power of the “air-lord” and his allies continues to wax during our times (as is obvious to anyone with eyes open) and he directs the ideo-political systems of the world, that do iniquity under the cover of good-seeming (liberating women from patriarchal oppression, establishing progressiveness, stopping “abuse” etc)

2000 yeas ago Christ acknowledged the “air-lord” as the de-facto “ruler” of Earth (meaning the peeps voluntarily served him and his systems, while rejecting the authentic king) and not only has nothing changed, but satan’s power is currently at its greatest . . . pervasive and planetary, indeed

i sense a little disccouragement or desperation in yr comments, Empatho, and it’s understandable given our reality, and my statements — but our satanic/feminist nations and planet offer unprecedented opportunities to resist and reject the current wars against fatherhood, masculinity, and God

it’s so dark right now, even the little lights (us!) show up quite clearly, all over hevvun

any real christian would give a kidney to be born into our times . . . there’s so much to do, and so few doing it

you folks are at the extreme frontlines of the Father’s Kingdom, preparing this rebel world for the sovereignty of Christ enthroned, and his FULL restoration of fatherhood, sonship, masculinity, family, and loving personal relationship with God

that you might walk with the Lord again, in the cool and sweet evenings, on your own land, under you own trees

dont be discouraged despite the odds, keep plugging ahead with the unpopular truth; it is your handprints that are gonna be all over eternity

Jesus will get a big kick out of seeing the words of us “nobodies” confirmed and honored in his Kingdom

But the silent majority is with those of us who think activism is both possible and necessary.

This is evidenced by how whenever I tell a new guy about the concept of anti-misandry, they immediately ask where the activism is. After being embarrassed too many times by not being able to point to activism being done, I just had to create my own campaign, however imperfect it may be.

And these dumbshits have to expend all their energy to tear *that* down (although it has succeeded in spite of them in the basic goal of raising awareness). They *want* to be victims.

And this is why they hate Game (among other things), because Game is a non-victimy, take-the-matter-into-your-own-hands concept. They hate anything that tells them they are not powerless.

“Western Christianity has never emphasized “discipleship accountability” (daily denying one self, picking up ones cross, and following Jesus ) from the pulpit despite having a church nearly on every corner.”

I am always amazed by these threads about the feminized church. Another opportunity for me to plug Eastern Orthodoxy. This sort of preaching or behavior is simply foreign to me. How many of you attend churches where the men and women sit (or stand) on different sides of the church? Do your women cover their heads in church? How often is there any talk of self-denial?

Exactly. I perhaps went off on a tangent by talking about marriage rather than the church but I think that many women have the same rebellious rent seeking attitude and behavior towards other male authority figures and not just their husbands. These women become adept at using a subtle form of blackmail that implicitly says that unless you give me what I want, I will undermine whatever you are trying to accomplish.

I am not a great scholar of the bible but I have read Adam and Eve. One of the facets to the Garden of Eden that I see is that woman works her evil through man. I also view Satan in this light compared to God. Both are unable of actually creating the highest works (children aside) but what they excel at is corrupting what man and God make. This of course can come across as extremely patronizing when looked at from a contemporary view but essentially what I am saying is that much of women’s power rests in manipulating men, including using underhanded and negative tactics, to accomplish what they won’t or cannot do by themselves. I am sure this is as true today as when the bible was written.

I understand the appeal of the sunday morning nightclub. But i do not judge the puas that exploit it. Another writer talked of it being blasphemous. That wasn’t my point. I was questioning the outcome, whether adding to the women’s notch count will truly deter the most persistent, white knighting betas determined to end up divorced, broke and broken.

So on a number of levels i couldn’t recommend the smc, but i understand why it happens. And seeing the hypergamous women that actively feed the process disgusts me so much i rarely go near a church any more. The whole feminised, misandric atmosphere is just toxic.

In common with many (most?) non-alpha men, young adulthood was a confusing morass of church teachings being contradicted by experience, which was confirmed by statistics.

Young men were told in no uncertain terms what it took to be a man. Except it didn’t work. Following the script meant becoming a goodguy doormat at home, work, and to all women.

The outcome was not my own anecdote. No fault divorce supports it. It’s a familiar story. Good guy eventually gets married, then divorced, and finally penniless.

Whilst that is not my personal story, i did experience a long season of singleness, datelessness, and the usual rumours put about church by malicious vixens. As usual, when i raised this issue privately, i was told in no uncertain terms that the woman had ‘been through a lot’.

In other words, suck it up because women are always the victim and their behaviour is not to be criticised or questioned. Even when the man has done nothing wrong.

On a broader scale, coming to learn how the hypergamous behavours of disobedient women perpetuates marriage fraud, theft and injustice, righteous anger is to be expected. Attempts to shame men into submission will not help, nor will it restore what the vultures have stolen.

Leadership can only move to restoration when there is recognition of transgression, and deep repentance.

TFH
“And this is why they hate Game (among other things), because Game is a non-victimy, take-the-matter-into-your-own-hands concept. They hate anything that tells them they are not powerless.”
This is where real leadership comes in . People are like that because as long as they are poerless it is not their fault. It is a psychological coping one would use to live day to day with misandry in every place to go in life including it seems the one place you should be able to go and find peace,the church.

But the silent majority is with those of us who think activism is both possible and necessary.

I don’t know. I can still post at Spearhead (no matter how banned the screaming infants “say” I am) but really got to loathe it now that I blog. Not from Price’s writing, which I still like, but the commenters. It’s not like here – there, it’s being fifteen, forced to sit at your mom’s cacklehen fest where all the other kids are six. Like babysitting York-a-doodles. Dork-a-doodles…

There are “problems” with posting there. I volunteered to write a few pieces for Price but he’s not answered. Bad things are brewing there – bad.

You might find it interesting (but not surprising) that now there is a band of ‘MRAs’ that are organizing to oppose any activism.

This unofficially existed already, but now these people have become a formal organization to tear down anyone who does activism.

We can’t make this stuff up….

They’re more numerous than you think. In addition to the “MRAs” who are explicitly anti-activism, there are “MRAs” who are crypto-anti-activists. This is the latest example. It’s practically the same thing as the explicit anti-activists with criticism of any man such as Glenn Sachs and Paul Elam who have done actual activism. The crypto-anti-activists hide their anti-activism in rubbish like “I want to be a victor not a victim” and “I want to be a winner”, but they have never done any activism for mens rights making such statements less than meaningless. They also never propose any alternatives to what men like Glenn Sachs and Paul Elam are doing so that makes it clear they are in the anti-activist camp.

To say that the Sunday Morning Nightclub is blasphemous is to say that women should be held to a very different standard of conduct than men.

It’s very telling that these people are more concerned with a man using church as a Sunday morning nightclub (which is a relatively rare occurrence as a percentage of the people going to church), than the fact that their churches are filled with sluts using church as a social club and a way to snag a chump to divorce later.

This activism question is a good one. I agree with both sides, how is that for not committing?

I cannot stand awareness raising campaigns, not because there are not things that should be put into awareness raising, but because most of what passes as awareness raising is silly,
Raising rape awareness
Raising abuse of women awareness
Raising single motherhood awareness

Whatever, USUALLY raising awareness as activism is how celebrities get to feel important, full stop.
The idea of awareness raising in MRM circles could be squirrely as well. What I mean is, and I like the urinal campaign and all these things, I FOR all of it, the more blogs and whatever we can do the better, but I cannot call it awareness raising, because that is woefully inadequate. To raise awareness is to tell people, something they ostensibly would instantly see the wrongness of, and be easily outraged with all the others. That just isnt the case with MRA issues. Its a sales job, not awareness raising. I’m all for it, I am just bothered with what I think about when I see the term awareness raising advocacy. Frankly the only rubber that meets the road in MRA matters is changing peoples perspectives, red pills, etc. Just telling them men have issues (pure definition of awareness raising) aint gonna cut it and likely backfires. We burn through the leads like a telemarketer, 1 in so many will find resonance in what we say, a small number more may eventually find resonance. the rest…….wont, period, no matter how much advocacy they experience

I don’t like the word “submission” it has ugly overtones (IMHO) of having no say whatsoever.

Having been in positions of power where my word is the last word, and bearing that final responsibility when sh!t goes horribly wrong, only a fool doesn’t listen to his Leftenant (Canadian,eh).

And yes, never, EVER berate said Leftenant in front of the troops. That can be accomplished in a meeting, and the troops can see that their officer got torn a new orifice without having to witness it.

But if you want to humiliate and destroy a man, sure do it in public, in front of the family he is doing his best to lead.
Break his spirit. Just don’t complain when he either leaves, or stays and functions like a living ghost (or just becomes one)

Humiliation can be fatal, that’s a fact. Just ask my Uncle (you can’t , he gave himself a face lift with 12 Gauge #4 shot)

To raise awareness is to tell people, something they ostensibly would instantly see the wrongness of, and be easily outraged with all the others. That just isnt the case with MRA issues. Its a sales job, not awareness raising.

I’ve toyed with writing a post about this. The issue isn’t bringing the facts. Those are typically very easy to locate and present. The issue is the pervasive frame. You have to break the current frame of denial before you can make your fact based argument, and this is usually very difficult. I see this as my primary job as a blogger. There are different tools to use, humor, metaphor, juxtaposition, satire, brute force/shock, etc. and knowing which to use when is a challenge. But as we in the sphere keep plugging away at this I think we can see the cracks start to form. The attack by the SPLC and the recent SMH article are small signs of this. I don’t mean this in a sense that the whole thing will soon blow over, but more like the scene in Terminator 1 when Reece talks about how they learned to fight back against the machines. They went from unchecked destruction with tank treads crushing mounds of human skulls, to fighting a mostly losing battle against a superior force but with the will to fight as long as it took. This is where I think we are now, and in the context it is reason for guarded celebration.

Yessir, those tools, strategies, delivery modes, whatever, they each, when coupled with topic, hit a sweet spot on a handful of people. That is activism and it means something more than awareness raising normally means. If it were awareness raising we could just toss out lapel pins, rubber bracelets, and bumper stickers and feel as if we were on the front lines. After all, and especially on the political left, the feeling of having done something far outweighs whether something was actually done. If the so called activist can convince self that they care, they can assume others feel that they feel strongly, and care. In this sense the awareness being raised is more that Jane Q Popular-Actress cares about whirled peas than it is about whirled peas

The general rule in business about publicly or privately repremanding an employee goes hand in hand with whether their offense was public or private. If someone is insolent and directly insubordinate to you in front of others then you need to make the matter public. Even if you do not actually dress down the subordinate in front of the group you need to let it be known that action was taken and not swept under the rug. Sometimes it is unavoidable.

As I read through the entirety of the comments on this piece, I was reminded of several points from Scripture which prompted some comments from me.

All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God. But some of the sisterhood appear to think that all does not include those suffering with BWV syndrome (Thanks for that one Dalrock)

Only God is perfect. So men should not expect a perfect wife, and wives should not expect perfect husbands.

The “all” that have sinned include the leaders of the church, some of whom are in honest error (i.e. do not understand their error or are genuinely trying to follow Scripture) and some are seeking to subvert the church to their master’s (Satan’s) own ends.

I also understand the concept of the Sunday Morning Nightclub from about 30 years ago, because it was at church I was approached when I was single, by a woman with two kids and in the process of getting a divorce. I considered a relationship with her. As a new kid in town, I did not know her reputation from before she had gotten married, but it was someone outside church who actually warned me about the liberality of her affections. The proof of the pudding came when she let me know in no uncertain terms that she had been told she was good in bed and would be happy to let me try before I buy, KWIM. Thankfully, my desire to follow Christ was stronger than my sex drive at the time. Had she been a truly repentant sinner, she would not have said I could try before I buy. The problem is that a young man can end up being snared by such a woman only to be dropped at a later stage when somebody new/better/different comes along.

But the basic concept is that all discipline should, where possible, be in private, and should never be in the presence of subordinates. This is best practice in industrial and commercial situations, and if the church were to follow the Matthew 18 principles, then it would be between the two protagonists, then with a limited number of witnesses, then to the leadership and only then to the whole church. Aside from being Scripturally unsound, it is ineffective. Even the American Military found this out in Vietnam, when they introduced the concept of the “feedback sandwich” toinclude good and bad.

Same here. I admire WF Price a lot. His writing is crisp, professional, and unbiased. He has also shown great strength in the face of extreme unfairness, as well as courage in using his real name (The Spearhead can be used by his ex-wife to make him look bad to the judge at child custody hearings).

I also admire Zed a lot, and am actually a bit worried about his health, since he hasn’t shown up for a few months. I’ll be relieved to see him comment again.

But quite a few commenters there are just pathetic. They just are the opposite of every trait I could admire.

That Rob Fedders guy is a nut. He claimes I ‘undermined’ him (but can’t produce any link to back up that claim), and also says that the URLs @ Urinals campaign was done before (but once again, cannot produce a link to a website for any previous such campaign for flyers promoting androsphere websites). And even if it were (hypothetically) done before, that certainly does not mean it should be condemned and denigrated merely for being revived. He similarly bashes Paul Elam.

I understand that he was once an important contributor to Men’s Rights, but as quite often happens, the 2008 Rob Fedders is very different from the 2012 Rob Fedders.

PMAFT,

The Spearhead is not nor does it claim to be a MRA website.

That is true, but FP is referring to the fanatical anti-activist bias of some commenters. WF Price himself does generally agree that the lack of general activism is a fair point, which induced him to start his marriage reform page.

I think alot of men are scared of their wives. And quite frankly I’m blunt and to the point with mines. I’ve told women right in front of their face how things are and I’ve never been asked to come back because I’ve disgusted some women in some way. It makes me want to throw up. I believe in God and the bible. Yet it’s not followed at all. I usually refer to them in my own mind as the wolf pack. Unfortunately for them I don’t have a problem standing my ground against them or anyone else that has a problem with it. However the fight gets lost when I really don’t the time to deal it or not interest in fighting with numbskulls.

On Father’s Day, I always preached on God The Father, creator of heaven & earth, and how he was the source and pattern for true & life-giving Fatherhood. Some of the feminists and liberals would give me the cold shoulder afters, but I would not bash men or Fathers from the pulpit, in the life of the parish, or in how I tried to faithfully “Father” the flocks under my care. Clergy are under a lot of pressure to conform to the Zeitgeist, to the latest radical political causes, to busybody church bureaucrats, and to preaching that crap with a couple of jokes every Sunday. Often this kind of conformity begins in their theology schools, most of which are tinged with radicalism. Nor are clergy encouraged for the most part to be brave, outspoken, or out of step by their education, church, or denominational leaders. Just sayin’, is all.

>>the URLs @ Urinals campaign was done before (but once again, cannot produce a link to a website for any previous such campaign for flyers promoting androsphere websites)

Don’t be ridiculous. Bob Sides did it in the 80’s, and for some reason I forget there is no link. Oh, yes, I remember. There is no link because there was no Internet 25 years ago. So, it was phone numbers, not links on the urinals

You guys talk tough, but you have no idea what has been done, because the MSM did not cover it. And, of course, you cannot listen to old-timers, because you assume they were losers because they accomplished nothing. Thus, you repeat the same exact stuff we did, while imagining you are some sort of studly heroes for doing what never worked.

In truth, the marriage strike (the one our host insists is not happening, because he does not understand differential calculus) is working. That is why the dedicated attacks on all things MRA and men.

I figure this much, I avoids women like the plagues until such a time as when they proves themselves worthy. I stick to what is right and true, that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost will guides my days, with my King James Bible, and ignoring the rebellious women, weeding them out until one obeisant woman worthy of marriage shows herself. Until then, I stick firmly to my singlehood and freedom. Ha ha ha. Neither women nor these feminised-morons can tell me what to do and what to think. I follow Jesus and nothing else. I am deaf to them in every way, taking heed of their evilness and avoiding their stupidities. Ha ha ha.

So true and I never even realized it until you stated it. I don’t remember as a child in the seventies pastors doing this to the men in their church. No the culture evolved away from the biblical model to a feminist one and Christianity adapted to survive.