focuspulling wrote:Well sure - that is practically a script, into the realm of cliche after years of repetition -- no one could have possibly missed that dilemma as a routine decision point. I decide to get third-party batteries all the time after careful research, but the bigger point here (already plumbed heavily even in this thread if you scroll up), is that the actual authentic Canon batteries perform worse in some respects than quality generics (because of that critical factor of needing to get an accurate reading of how much power is left before the BMPCC4k shuts down and corrupts footage).

It may be a cliché, but it's based on sound evidence. Yes, some have never had a problem with knockoff batteries, yet. The reason why Canon batteries may provide a shorter run time is because of their rating (which tends to be conservative and accurate for a start), but they are also consistently more reliable (as are all OEM batteries). My BM battery won't even charge in my Canon charger and it can be a similar situation with all OEM chargers and knockoff batteries.

The quality of knockoff batteries can vary to the extremes because of the quality of materials used, especially the circuitry, and that affects reliability. The choice is yours, but I prefer reliability over price. And knowing that a genuine battery will consistently last a certain amount of time is far more important than a few extra minutes of power from a potentially unreliable battery.

I don't think you're paying attention: there is a serious problem with the way that the Canon OEM battery communicates with the BMPCC4K. Scroll up.

Do we need an unofficial or official list of 3rd party batteries recommended for use in the BMPCC4K? Any volunteers to start a thread as an unofficial list where the first post in the thread is kept up-to-date with proven success? Perhaps we can use this thread if Marcus wants to take on the role.

As well as the description of the item, it would be nice to document the time it takes a fully charged battery to cause a camera shutdown while writing to an internal card or an SSD.

I believe this camera will sell very well, especially now that we are learning which gimbals can accommodate it. It’s a great camera with a few items to iron out as documented elsewhere and firmware updated to 6.x. I think it will be their best seller in 2019.

I've been using and testing these in real time as an earliy receiver of the camera.

I was dissapointed that the original Canons don't give an accurate read out, but they're dependable and good for about 50 minutes at 50% screen brightness.

Wasabis which I ordered specifically to test, run exactly as long as the Canons and give a percentage but, like every battery, (which is why I'm assuming it's actually a camera/software issue) drop % precipitously and will show 2% or 3% or 5% when there's actually 1/2 the run time remaining.

So the actual battery reportage from the P4K is wonky at best and pretty much useless from a practical standpoint. It would be great for BM to look into this ASAP and perhaps address w/ a firmware fix ASAP.

Bottom line, and as much as we have shot with it, it's still a short sampling:Wasabis are very inexpensive and as good as the originals so far.Pawa are also good but don't have specifics.PowerExtra are useless but that seems to be some compatability issue beacuse I've dedicated them to just running the attached monitor/VFs and they run all day.

Do we know anything about the “supply chain” for any of these batteries: ie the original component manufacturers. As I am sure everyone here already understands many products today are merely “white labeled” variants of a product produced by a single manufacturer (often Chinese). Perhaps if we better understood the supply chain it might be easier to figure out what is going on here and what to look for in a reliable battery. It would also be helpful if Blackmagic would enter this discussion directly to help everyone out in this rather tricky issue. In the end we all want the same thing: power and reliability.

AdamTV wrote:Do we know anything about the “supply chain” for any of these batteries: ie the original component manufacturers. As I am sure everyone here already understands many products today are merely “white labeled” variants of a product produced by a single manufacturer (often Chinese). Perhaps if we better understood the supply chain it might be easier to figure out what is going on here and what to look for in a reliable battery. It would also be helpful if Blackmagic would enter this discussion directly to help everyone out in this rather tricky issue. In the end we all want the same thing: power and reliability.

Some related data points include the fact that the performance of identically designed/manufactured lithium batteries actually do vary based upon the quality of factory production at every stage through to packaging. So, identifying the common source of the battery product doesn't reliably approximate equivalance.

Another data point is the way that there are sorts of "handshake protocols" for accurate battery percentages and proper shutdowns. Sony was a bully for many years with so-called "Infolithium" branding, taking the ******* approach at the interim by firmware-ing their cameras to shut down instantly upon insertion of any third-party battery (NP-FW50 knock-offs). Then they opened up Infolithium (and presumably asked their rabid lawyers to stand down) so that third-party batteries give accurate readings.

The question at the deep engineering level here, is whether Blackmagic skipped a step, or is prevented from accessing the full "Infolithium"-esque qualities of LP-E6/LP-E6N.

Last edited by focuspulling on Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Ray (that's what it is) wrote:Let me explain why random experiences aren't sufficient to determine which batteries work well and which don't. To do a meaningful test you'd need to do the following:

- Firstly you'll need say 10 cameras with different manufacturing dates, a sample battery (say a Canon genuine) and a manual lens. Then you'd need to run a series of tests to determine whether there is any sample variation between those cameras.

- Then you'd have to source a range of representative batteries from Canon, Wasabi, Watson, HuFlungDung and whatever, and at least 10 samples from each brand. You'd then have to run a run gamut of separate tests to determine sample variation etc between each battery brand so as set a baseline, taking into account capacities etc.

- You'd now have to run a battery test with the first camera/lens setup, maybe reducing it to a few cameras if sample variation was small, or the worst and best cameras if sample variation was large. That will provide a baseline for sample variation of camera/battery options. This now gives you some data.

- Now comes the difficult bit where you have to select a range of electronic lenses from Panasonic, Olympus, Canon, Sigma etc to give you a representative sample of lenses typically used and you'd need say 10 copies of each to factor in sample variation. Then you'd have to runs a full gamut of tests with each lens grouping and battery samples to see how each option performs.

It would be a massive undertaking and it still wouldn't provide definitive answers.

This is over-motivated to undermine that thing you're clearly never going to use: third-party batteries. Since you will refuse to ever consider them on principle, the critique is well understood but absolutely not dispositive.

Paul, I wasn’t aware of that intrigue related to InfoLithium. So many things you learn every day from these discussions.

Thanks for the discussions on the pros and cons of having a formal process to try to standardize the measurements of battery life. Anecdotal evidence may suffice. I’m not sure what to do for in-camera batteries but time will tell. Apparently I have a lot of time to ponder this with no sight of a camera on the horizon.

EDIT:I have ordered two of the Hedbox for the team from my dealer for testing purposes. Will report as soon as I get a chance to test those.

I finally got the 2 Hedbox batteries yesterday. As far as my early tests confirm they are showing exact percentages like the genuine Canons and they seem to last the same amount of time.I will report back after I have done more in depth testing.

BTW I am using an IDX dual fast charger for those LPE6 style batteries.

EDIT: just talked to my dealer and for fun facts it seems BMD ditches their battery and new deliveries won't have that battery included anymore.

Unfortunately I have to retract my first positive statement about the Hedbox (formerly known as RedPro).Had used them more intensively and the percentages are all over the place, unrelated to the voltage level and wildly jumping around.

I won't recommend those batteries at least not in combination with the PCC4K.

Tristan Pemberton wrote:Bring on the pocketable fission batteries, I say.

Mine's shelved.

However, there should be a way to make ala pretty safe high density battery (another design) if you want it to be so.

aIf you are not truthfully progressive, maybe you shouldn't say anythingbTruthful side topics in-line with or related to, the discussion acceptedcOften people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them

Jim Giberti wrote:I just ordered several more originals and the 3rd party bats are relegated to the EVFs.

You must be a rich man to afford that.

Sorry, Marcus but are you joking?Even the genuine Canon LP-E6 batteries cost nothing compared to what the Canon BP-975 for the XF300 series costs, or what Canon is charging for the new BP-A60 you need for C200/XF705.

Or when we are talking V-Mount batteries...I paid around EUR 1.600 before tax for 4x IDX 190Wh batteries and a dual fast charger...

I see the original canon batteries for insane 70eur a piece.Insane compared to what they contain and how much the same power costs in other form factors.

Given that they last 20-40 minutes (with or without phantom power, display-brightness, OIS, Bluetooth, power zoom....),enough batteries for 3-5h of shooting in a day away from the power grid with minimal luggage add up.I don't want to pay 700eur in batteries for a 1600eur camera when already saving up to afford the cage and hopefully next year a T5 SSD.

With the EN-EL20 for 20min on the BMPCC it was okay to have a stack of these in your pocket.(10eur/piece including a dual-charger if you buy 4) All the other components where not as expensive as with the 4K model and thus more budget was left for such things anyway.

In practice I'll have to use 3rd party batteries and ubiquitous NP-F batteries.

If you know a cheaper card then the Sandisk Extreme Pro that supports raw reliably on the BMPCC, I'm all ears.For the BMPCC4K I'm waiting for BM-Raw and saving up for a T5. Until then it's ProRes-only with the existing Sandisk cards.

For FullHD ProRes (or 10Bit MPEG on the GH5) the cheaper Patriot Memory cards have never failed in all these years.No experience with the BMPCC4K yet as I just have it for a few weeks yet and am busy with software development for it. First non-test use will be this week in ProRes-only.If the Sandisk turn out to be too slow or too small, existing Atomos caddies with Sandisk Ultra II SSDs could be worth a test.

Marcus, if you have the Sony NP-F970 batteries on a sled with a dummy battery or regulated 12VDC that you can patch to the camera 2-pin connector, use that. If you have a large V-lock battery, use that. I’ll get one or two genuine Canon batteries for emergencies or light usage, but where I need to power the camera for hours, I’ll use the Cinegears 250Wh battery with the BMD D-tap to 2-pin locking connector and not think about power all day.

But for $65, it's a non-issue.It's worth it just for the predictability of remaining time. Lose one important take to a power-off and you'll wish you had them.

Beyond that and the consistent power (about 50 min on average), they simply last a long time and maintain their quality. I've got some that we got with our original Canon 5Ds that still outperform any newer 3rd party batteries.

I got the P4Ks for their size and IQ for a lot of our outdoor, challenging work. And for my personal camera because I've grown to love small.So keeping it without cumbersome additional power is a must for me and the Canons are really cheap for what they deliver in this camera.

The Ikan battery is rated at 7.2V, but 2950mAh vs. 7.4V/2000mAh of most LP-E6 batteries. Rated at a different voltage, that equates to 21.2 Wh vs 14.8 Wh, still a significant increase. Some LP-E6 batteries are rated at 7.4V/1600mAh, or 11.8 Wh. I'm guessing the Blackmagic batteries are in that group.

Has anyone tried the Ikan? I've seen one review where it lost capacity after 3 months. If it works, it could be a big boon to this camera. It is also available from Kastar.

You'll have to verify if the battery with increased capacity is worse. There has been slow progress in lithium storage capacity over time.

aIf you are not truthfully progressive, maybe you shouldn't say anythingbTruthful side topics in-line with or related to, the discussion acceptedcOften people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them

I am pretty sure you have a counterfeit. Check the link provided for some more examples of counterfeits. Some can look really, really good. Note the comment regarding a reseller claiming to buy the original batteries through Amazon...

And if you think you get ripped off by genuine OEMs and there is no difference between them and cheap third party batteries, then have a read here, how the battery business works in China:https://www.mpoweruk.com/china_batteries.pdf

I'll tell you how the battery business works. I has a friend who started a early one battery maker. Local politic types and mob try to move him, and he was asked to approve handheld equipment with dodgy power supply or motor, I forget, he refused. So they had him thrown in jail for a couple weeks and deported, loosing his share in a business that would have been worth hundreds of millions in today's terms, even if not more by now if he had stayed and they developed a reputation for quality product.

Ever hear the one about the large NEC labeled factory, that copied even their corporate structure, which Nec didn't know about?

aIf you are not truthfully progressive, maybe you shouldn't say anythingbTruthful side topics in-line with or related to, the discussion acceptedcOften people deceive themselves so much they do not understand, even when the truth is explained to them

There must be an ‘integrity’ gene in the human genome. It seems you either have it or you don’t. So sad it appears to be a recessive gene and I shudder to think of the world that’s approaching in the 22nd century as this gene will gradually fail to dominate.

I like the Patonas, got a few Sony-style for my LEDs and also two V-mounts. The latter hold their charge very well and offer a good price/performance ratio. But when I tested one in the P4K, it ran for 33 minutes, still showing 80% and then quit without a warning. The one from BM ran for 49 minutes, gave a warning and quit gracefully (both with permanent recording).

Australian Image wrote:I only paid about 6 EUR more for my genuine Canon batteries. That said, I use cheap knockoffs (Sony in this case) with my LED panels, field monitor and in my backup V-lock plate, but never inside any camera.

Uhm where ? I want to buy it In Italy canon original cost since three time a patona compatible, 26 euros patona 2000 vs 75 euros canon ep-l6 original battery.

Uli Plank wrote:I like the Patonas, got a few Sony-style for my LEDs and also two V-mounts. The latter hold their charge very well and offer a good price/performance ratio. But when I tested one in the P4K, it ran for 33 minutes, still showing 80% and then quit without a warning. The one from BM ran for 49 minutes, gave a warning and quit gracefully (both with permanent recording).

Australian Image wrote:I only paid about 6 EUR more for my genuine Canon batteries. That said, I use cheap knockoffs (Sony in this case) with my LED panels, field monitor and in my backup V-lock plate, but never inside any camera.

Uhm where ? I want to buy it In Italy canon original cost since three time a patona compatible, 26 euros patona 2000 vs 75 euros canon ep-l6 original battery.

This is from an Australian seller - VideoPro (https://www.videopro.com.au/). I don't think they'd be selling products to European buyers. Genuine Canon LP-E6N batteries are currently on sale at AU$78.

Wow excellent price, unfortunately shipping to Europe and duty grow too much the price for us, also if he ship to Europe.

I have been contacted by Hedbox that they found my review here of their LP-E6N style batteries and they have looked into it and made a new version. They offered to ship me a sample for review purposes in January.

Robert Niessner wrote:I have been contacted by Hedbox that they found my review here of their LP-E6N style batteries and they have looked into it and made a new version. They offered to ship me a sample for review purposes in January.

Just got the camera and stuffed genuine canon lp-e6n battery in, it was charged a month ago or so. Showed 65% charge. Then the camera seemed clitch for a while and stopped showing percentage just showed full bar, then dropped to 58%. The camera seems to drain the battery pretty fast by being just on... while warming up. Now I need to charge the included 2000mAh 7,4V battery, then need to recharge the canon lp-e6n 1865mAh 7.2V batteries before making more conclusion... +the canon charger don’t seem to like the Blackmagic battery blinking like crazy.