Why tolerate the intolerant - when do we become militant atheists? - Think Atheist2016-12-09T16:06:06Zhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/forum/topics/why-tolerate-the-intolerant-when-do-we-become-militant-atheists?commentId=1982180%3AComment%3A1140195&feed=yes&xn_auth=noI think Karl Popper summed up…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2012-06-25:1982180:Comment:11466132012-06-25T12:48:11.092ZLogicallunatichttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/DerekMahon
<p>I think Karl Popper summed up perfectly what to me is the defining statement on this:</p>
<p><em>"Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them… We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim…</em></p>
<p>I think Karl Popper summed up perfectly what to me is the defining statement on this:</p>
<p><em>"Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them… We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the <a title="Powered by Text-Enhance" id="_GPLITA_2" href="http://richarddawkins.net/discussions/553940-karl-popper-on-tolerating-the-intolerant#" name="_GPLITA_2">law</a>, and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal.”</em></p>
<p></p> You have put up with this shi…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2012-06-24:1982180:Comment:11455872012-06-24T18:02:31.193ZSteveInCOhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/SteveInCO
<p>You have put up with this shithead for EIGHT YEARS?!?!</p>
<p>Holy crap.</p>
<p>You have put up with this shithead for EIGHT YEARS?!?!</p>
<p>Holy crap.</p> &gt; "These are all things w…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2012-06-22:1982180:Comment:11443772012-06-22T12:54:07.268ZSimon Payntonhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/SimonPaynton
<p>&gt; "These are all things we can pull people up on and have public discussions about."<br></br><br></br>&gt; Indeed. But none are remotely connected to the existence of a "god" or religion.<br></br><br></br>But they are connected with religion. This grass-roots stuff is every bit as important as the big famous issues like birth control or creationism. It probably has more effect on people.<br></br><br></br>Religion can cause great damage within people's lives when it is done in the wrong way. Conversely, it…</p>
<p>&gt; "These are all things we can pull people up on and have public discussions about."<br/><br/>&gt; Indeed. But none are remotely connected to the existence of a "god" or religion.<br/><br/>But they are connected with religion. This grass-roots stuff is every bit as important as the big famous issues like birth control or creationism. It probably has more effect on people.<br/><br/>Religion can cause great damage within people's lives when it is done in the wrong way. Conversely, it also saves many lives and souls. If that means that people spend their lives engaged in what seems to us to be goofy rituals, then that's up to them, it doesn't cause any harm, and it's all part of the package.<br/><br/>It can cause harm through: Repression. Guilt. Judgementalism. Phoney selfish reasons for being hard on someone. False legitimacy assumed just because a person is religious. Denying someone's natural healthy humanity. Etc. Plain bullying, arrogance and selfishness. It doesn't have to be like that, and it's not supposed to be like that. It's all because people can't handle themselves, in my opinion, and can't handle not being seen to know everything.<br/><br/>As for teaching creationism, withholding birth control and other public policies: these are all separate issues, separate from each other, to be taken on a case-by-case basis - like all of these things are, although some are more or less linked.<br/><br/>For example, I don't know, but perhaps instead of fighting with Christian groups over teaching creationism, which is something that is very difficult to win, with both sides being very deeply entrenched: why not push for teaching Evolution to be given equal prominence. <br/><br/>For birth control, that's a completely different battle, and it looks like a very slow difficult one. <br/><br/>The only way we can influence anyone is to appeal to them as human beings, and speak to them in their own language. Religious people are not satanists. They claim to want the best for the world, and very often, they really do. Their traditions are heavily based on "love and peace" and we can mobilise those traditions with the aim of stopping "suck". <br/><br/>"Educate" seems like a good idea. </p> "These are all things we can…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2012-06-22:1982180:Comment:11442802012-06-22T00:29:58.758ZJack Leehttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/JackLee
<p>"These are all things we can pull people up on and have public discussions about."</p>
<p><br></br>Indeed. But none are remotely connected to the existence of a "god" or religion.</p>
<p>Face it, religion and "god" are founded on the "science" of the day. They're what made sense a couple of thousand years ago, just as Flat Earth Theory did.</p>
<p>Now, they're redundant.</p>
<p>I mean, would you be happy with someone teaching your kids Flat Earth Theory, a geocentric universe, or…</p>
<p>"These are all things we can pull people up on and have public discussions about."</p>
<p><br/>Indeed. But none are remotely connected to the existence of a "god" or religion.</p>
<p>Face it, religion and "god" are founded on the "science" of the day. They're what made sense a couple of thousand years ago, just as Flat Earth Theory did.</p>
<p>Now, they're redundant.</p>
<p>I mean, would you be happy with someone teaching your kids Flat Earth Theory, a geocentric universe, or "creationism".</p>
<p>We still have schools which teach the latter.</p>
<p>Nope. I mean "educate".</p> But when you say "educate", s…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2012-06-21:1982180:Comment:11439442012-06-21T13:06:05.879ZSimon Payntonhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/SimonPaynton
<p>But when you say "educate", surely you mean "de-convert". <br></br><br></br>You seem to equate "rational" with "correct". Rational, in an atheist sense, just means scientific, intellectual, materialist. But there's more to life than that. <br></br><br></br>Have you heard of Godels's Incompleteness Theorem? He proved that within the system of arithmetic, there are some statements that cannot be proven by using only the rules and axioms of that system. Or something similar. I believe that the same…</p>
<p>But when you say "educate", surely you mean "de-convert". <br/><br/>You seem to equate "rational" with "correct". Rational, in an atheist sense, just means scientific, intellectual, materialist. But there's more to life than that. <br/><br/>Have you heard of Godels's Incompleteness Theorem? He proved that within the system of arithmetic, there are some statements that cannot be proven by using only the rules and axioms of that system. Or something similar. I believe that the same applies to "rationality". You can't answer every question by staying within the boundaries of strict, narrow rationality. If we try and do that, we end up going round in little circles. Rationality has to have something to work on besides just itself. All it is is a system of making sense of and describing the world. Nothing more. I think we spend too much time trying to fit the world into our nice neat little set of theories, and tend to forget about the world itself. <br/><br/>So it's not really very rational at all to stick with a strict narrow definition of rationality. <br/><br/>Rationality is great, we all love it, it's necessary. But there are other things which are just as important. Such as the quality of who people are, how they behave in everyday life, how they treat people, bring up their kids, do business. These are all things we can pull people up on and have public discussions about.</p> Well, I disagree. It's not a…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2012-06-21:1982180:Comment:11439102012-06-21T00:59:28.680ZJack Leehttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/JackLee
<p>Well, I disagree. It's not a case of "de-converting" people. It's a case of educating them.</p>
<p>I'd like a world full of people who are rational. That might be asking a lot, but the more people who are turned off religion, the more likely they'll turn others off it and we'll finally be shed of it like we were shed of flat Earth theory and a geocentric universe.</p>
<p>It's Ok for us to do it because we're enlightening people. The religiods are only ever misguiding people or pulling the…</p>
<p>Well, I disagree. It's not a case of "de-converting" people. It's a case of educating them.</p>
<p>I'd like a world full of people who are rational. That might be asking a lot, but the more people who are turned off religion, the more likely they'll turn others off it and we'll finally be shed of it like we were shed of flat Earth theory and a geocentric universe.</p>
<p>It's Ok for us to do it because we're enlightening people. The religiods are only ever misguiding people or pulling the wool over their eyes.</p>
<p>"It's not like they're nazis and criminals"...well, some would disagree. The Catholic Church, for example, is one very big business which has its fingers in a lot of pies. Religion has a stranglehold over a lot of politicians. The religious ideologies are intertwined with just about every country's political system in some way.</p>
<p>And let's not even start with Islam...</p> I don't believe we should be…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2012-06-20:1982180:Comment:11436212012-06-20T08:53:44.907ZSimon Payntonhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/SimonPaynton
<p>I don't believe we should be trying to de-convert people, I think we just need to get religious people to clean up their game. They're only human, they get confused and led astray. Their underlying concepts are sound, and in fact, rooted in reality. We need to appeal to their own, best, traditions of humanity and discipline. </p>
<p>I think trying to de-convert people is a bit weird. We hate it when religious people evangelize, so why is it OK for us to do it? Why not leave people alone…</p>
<p>I don't believe we should be trying to de-convert people, I think we just need to get religious people to clean up their game. They're only human, they get confused and led astray. Their underlying concepts are sound, and in fact, rooted in reality. We need to appeal to their own, best, traditions of humanity and discipline. </p>
<p>I think trying to de-convert people is a bit weird. We hate it when religious people evangelize, so why is it OK for us to do it? Why not leave people alone to their own beliefs? We all want the same thing. It's not like they're nazis and criminals. </p> Well I think in part it's bec…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2012-06-20:1982180:Comment:11433412012-06-20T00:16:20.331ZJack Leehttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/JackLee
<p>Well I think in part it's because a lot of people don't like to stand out from the crowd. There's safety in numbers, and many people think that because a lot of people think a certain way then they must be right.</p>
<p>And so they go along with the crowd.</p>
<p>After all, they are expected to be sheep: "The Lord is my Shepard" says it all...</p>
<p>And sure enough, they discard all responsibility for themselves and everything else, because "God" will take care of them.</p>
<p>No wonder…</p>
<p>Well I think in part it's because a lot of people don't like to stand out from the crowd. There's safety in numbers, and many people think that because a lot of people think a certain way then they must be right.</p>
<p>And so they go along with the crowd.</p>
<p>After all, they are expected to be sheep: "The Lord is my Shepard" says it all...</p>
<p>And sure enough, they discard all responsibility for themselves and everything else, because "God" will take care of them.</p>
<p>No wonder they're happy!</p>
<p>Until, of course, the farmer takes them to market...</p> "That's why I can't keep my m…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2012-06-20:1982180:Comment:11432512012-06-20T00:11:47.962ZJack Leehttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/JackLee
<p>"That's why I can't keep my mouth shut about religion".</p>
<p>Just about sums it up for me, too.</p>
<p>"That's why I can't keep my mouth shut about religion".</p>
<p>Just about sums it up for me, too.</p> "...it's an absurdity that ca…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2012-06-19:1982180:Comment:11429642012-06-19T11:31:12.774Zxfundiehttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/xfundie
<p>"...it's an absurdity that causes a lot more problems than it fixes." <br/>THAT, right there, is why I can't keep my mouth shut about religion. It slows progress and stumps knowledge. It's not just intolerance of other people, its the rejection of science, the apathy that prayer creates, and holier-than-thou arrogance that's slowly making me more militant. </p>
<p>"...it's an absurdity that causes a lot more problems than it fixes." <br/>THAT, right there, is why I can't keep my mouth shut about religion. It slows progress and stumps knowledge. It's not just intolerance of other people, its the rejection of science, the apathy that prayer creates, and holier-than-thou arrogance that's slowly making me more militant. </p>