waremark wrote:I learnt in my parents cars. I taught all three of my children in our cars. There were no dual controls involved, no damage was done, and nothing dangerous happened.

On the other hand there was some swapping between seats for demonstration purposes. And there was less time pressure than with a paid instructor.

I teach gliding - in machines with genuine dual controls. Demonstration forms a fundamental and regular part of instructing. I think driving instruction would be more productive in a car with genuine dual controls including accelerator and steering wheel, such as I have seen used in other countries.

Whilst it is perfectly legal to have a dual accelerator in the UK, it must be disconnected when the vehicle is taken on test. The reason, IIAC, years ago an examiner accidently pressed the dual accelerator and caused an accident. I stand to be corrected on this one though if anyone knows different.

A dual steering wheel could be an advantage in as much as it should eliminate the risk of unintentional physical contact with the pupil which could happen if the instructor has to make a grab for the wheel in a hurry. Hopefully verbal intervention would be early enough to prevent such grabs.

Hmmm , they want to ban new drivers from motorways, just after announcing that learners are to be permitted on them ?

Ban on night driving - I appreciate that many new driver RTCs happen at night - but isn’t this because that is the only time many can get on the road ?

IMHO there should be an element of night driving in instruction , otherwise a daylight only learner will have little or no experience of driving to the limits of visibility with lighting, anticipation of oncoming drivers and when to dip headlights , even when to turn lights on as darkness falls ( the number of ‘dim’ drivers I see in mornings and evenings oblivious to having no lights on is shocking ) ; hazard perception during darkness or on urban roads with cyclists and pedestrians harder to see due to lights of other vehicles also needs to be taught .

Stopping people gaining the above experience is not the answer , on the contrary , getting them out there and gaining experience, if need be under supervision of an experienced driver is . I’d suggest an ‘experienced ‘ driver might be one who has held a full licence for five years , for the purposes of being able to supervise - a simple rule which does not fail when an older driver may only have driven for a year .

I myself was taught largely by my dad ( he was a haulage contractor , HGV Class 1 , motorcycle instructor in the army , and more , although not AD , a very competent and experienced driver ) I passengered all over the country with him when driving trucks , cars , towing caravans for many years before I started driving , was allowed to drive cars , vans and a Series 1 Land Rover around his haulage yard and on sites from my early teens , hence had car and clutch control mastered long before going on road . Of course , I cycled on road from primary school age , as with all my peers did the National Cycling Proficiency Test - which taught the rules of the road and the all important ‘road sense’ - do kids even get the chance to do that nowadays ?

Nothing has come home from my 9 YO son’s school - ever - about taking bikes in ... at my primary school part of the playground was painted out with road markings and regular lessons given , up to said test , and schools took part in a county wide contest , in which I led the winning school team and took first individual place myself .

I take my own son out on his bike under my supervision and protection, and have just recently started him on go-karting , which he loves . When he’s 14 , he will be encouraged to drive , initially under my supervision , at a local motorsport venue , which allows drivers from that age .

Starting people young on road skills is the answer , not restricting activities later - which will only result in slower learning or not learning at all .

Placing restrictions on new drivers is not the answer. A skill will only be learned by performing a task. Learners who learn during winter months will possibly have the odd lesson in the dark, but those whose lessons are primarily Spring, Summer, and early Autumn will probably not. But whatever, the hard fact is that a new driver, regardless of age, is most vulnerable within the first year due to lack of experience.

Pontoneer wrote:Nothing has come home from my 9 YO son’s school - ever - about taking bikes in ... at my primary school part of the playground was painted out with road markings and regular lessons given , up to said test , and schools took part in a county wide contest , in which I led the winning school team and took first individual place myself .

I take my own son out on his bike under my supervision and protection, and have just recently started him on go-karting , which he loves . When he’s 14 , he will be encouraged to drive , initially under my supervision , at a local motorsport venue , which allows drivers from that age .

Starting people young on road skills is the answer , not restricting activities later - which will only result in slower learning or not learning at all .

‘Cycling proficiency’ still exists in primary schools around here (South Cambs), except it’s called ‘Bikeability’ now. It doesn’t seem greatly different from when I did it more than 45 years ago. Both my children did it, and the eldest (who is now 14) has cycled to secondary school since starting there.

waremark wrote:I teach gliding - in machines with genuine dual controls. Demonstration forms a fundamental and regular part of instructing. I think driving instruction would be more productive in a car with genuine dual controls including accelerator and steering wheel, such as I have seen used in other countries.

Whilst it is perfectly legal to have a dual accelerator in the UK, it must be disconnected when the vehicle is taken on test. The reason, IIAC, years ago an examiner accidently pressed the dual accelerator and caused an accident. I stand to be corrected on this one though if anyone knows different.

A dual steering wheel could be an advantage in as much as it should eliminate the risk of unintentional physical contact with the pupil which could happen if the instructor has to make a grab for the wheel in a hurry. Hopefully verbal intervention would be early enough to prevent such grabs.

Nigel.

Hi Nigel. That is quite different from my reason for thinking it would be productive to have proper dual controls including accelerator and steering wheel - which is so that the instructor can give demonstrations. When teaching a manoeuver, 'let me show you how we carry out a parallel park', for example. It would be quicker and more efficient than explaining it and then letting the student get it wrong.

Most instructors use demonstrations. For instance, when teaching a turn in the road to illustrate the slowness of the cars speed compared to the speed of steering needed. Usually at slow speed the steering doesn't need to be brisk, and a pupil might not appreciate the benifits. A demonstration illustrates this. Then, with talk through a pupil will succeed. It is important at this stage that the pupil succeeds. Once they have an understanding of the principles and what is expected, the learning is progressively transfered from instructor to pupil. At this point, depending on the situation, and all safety considerations taken into account, then mistakes can be allowed, which would lead on to a discussion on the issue, and what could have been done differently.

fungus wrote:Placing restrictions on new drivers is not the answer. A skill will only be learned by performing a task.

As I understand it, that's the purpose of GDL - they driving experience through their most at-risk period, but restricted to driving in less risky situations. And the evidence from those countries that have introduced seem to show it's worth.

fungus wrote:Most instructors use demonstrations. For instance, when teaching a turn in the road to illustrate the slowness of the cars speed compared to the speed of steering needed. Usually at slow speed the steering doesn't need to be brisk, and a pupil might not appreciate the benifits. A demonstration illustrates this. Then, with talk through a pupil will succeed. It is important at this stage that the pupil succeeds. Once they have an understanding of the principles and what is expected, the learning is progressively transfered from instructor to pupil. At this point, depending on the situation, and all safety considerations taken into account, then mistakes can be allowed, which would lead on to a discussion on the issue, and what could have been done differently.

Nigel.

Good. Precisely my point, same approach I take in my gliding instructing, but so much more efficient when you can hand full control backwards and forwards without needing to change seats.