Imagine a chef champion that functions slightly like Invoker from DotA.

Q W and E are ingredients, and R cooks them and serves a dish.

Q is veggies and spice, mainly for defense, W is meat, mainly for offense, and E is cheese, mainly for control.

The ingredients work like an ammo system: You gather ingredients every so often and can store up to 3 each, allowing you to cook 4-5 spells per fight with her passive and depending on your CDR.

In order to cast spells, you need to put 3 ingredients in the pot. An ingredient goes in the pot when you cast Q W or E. Once there are 3 ingredients in the pot, R will turn into a spell, the dish that combination of ingredients produces. You can then use R to cast that spell, consuming the ingredients. If you put an ingredient in the pot when the pot is already full, you'll take out the first ingredient you put in, refunding its cost. So, if you cast Q > W > W and realize you wanted the E ingredient instead of Q, casting E would remove the Q to give you W > W > E, and casting Q again would give you W > E > Q.

Putting ingredients into the pot costs mana, and replacing an ingredient will refund its mana cost. The average cost per spell will start at around 60 mana and will go up to 120 (20-40 per ingredient)

The passive lets you cast a spell free of ingredient cost once every 30 seconds.

Each spell you are able to cast is based mainly on the Main Ingredient. The main ingredient is determined by putting 2 of one ingredient into the pot. Then you add in a flavor, or more of that ingredient. If you add in 3 different ingredients, you get a casserole with a separate effect.

Ranking up each ability increases the color coded effect of each spell. e.g. Veggies&Spice uses the "Green" effect, Meat uses the "Red" effect, and Cheese uses the "White" effect.

Passive: Efficient Cooking - Every Y seconds (affected by CDR), the champion gains a charge of Efficient Cooking. While it has efficient cooking, the next dish will not consume ingredients, allowing them to be used again. Cooldown starts when the effect is consumed.

The result is a champion with 4 distinct spells, 3 of which allow you to flavor them for different sub-effects. You have a heal/buff, a damage/debuff, a slow/debuff, and a pet with an aura buff. You can choose a number of options from your list of ingredients during a fight, and will always have enough ingredients to cast 3 different spells (outside of the passive). You can do XXX YYY ZZZ, XXY YYZ ZZX, or XYZ XYZ XYZ for three casserole monsters. You can even mix it up, using XYZ, XXY, YZZ during one fight. You can also use your passive to get two of one dish or use it to cover the third dish you wouldn't have been able to serve.

I might aim to have the ingredient recharge rate be somewhere around 10 seconds, or have it higher and reduce the cooldown with rank, but the problem then lies in only having one ingredient at level 1. The other thing I would do would be to make each ingredient recharge faster the more you have of it, so like a 10 second CD to get your first veggie, 5 seconds to get your 2nd, and 2 seconds to get your third for a total 17 second cd, but then you could just spam casserole monsters every 2 seconds. Another thing would be to make the cooldown unique to each ingredient's charge, much like Death Knights from WoW used to have individual rune cooldowns. For Example, you have 3 veggies, and use all 3 in one dish. This would then proc 3 cooldowns, 1 for each veggie, so all your veggies would be ready to cast after that cooldown. If you only used 2 veggies, then those 2 veggies would proc cooldowns for themselves, allowing those 2 veggies to be ready again once the cooldown was up. This would be really clunky to utilize, however. The best I can think of would be to have a sort of "Ingredients Bar" on the interface above the spells, below the buffs. It would have 3 color coded bars for each ingredient that would be full and bright when ready to use, and shaded and filling up when on cooldown.

The real challenge comes with balancing the numbers. I hope that with my setup, it will be fairly easy to determine the numbers required based on the amount of each ingredient in each recipe, with the main ingredient weighing more heavily per ingredient.

TL;DRYou have 3 units of 3 different ingredients that replenish over timeMix Q W and E Ingredients for different spellsServe a dish with R once you have 3 ingredients prepared, consuming them.Every so often, you can make a dish and not consume ingredientsSpells focus on whichever ingredient you used two of, then adding a flavor with the third ingredient.Using 3 different ingredients creates a Casserole Monster (uncontrolable pet) with an aura buffQ focuses on defenseW focuses on offenseE focuses on controlRanking up ingredients increases that ingredient's effect in a dish.You can play well enough using the basic XXX ingredient spells, but more skilled "chefs" will be able to make better use of the flavorings

and now for the revised version:(note this is pretty much copypasta of my reply to ploki but with some edits)

Same basic theme of casting spells with flavoring and each ingredient fits into some sort of functional role whether used as flavoring or the main ingredient.

This time, there would be a flavoring slot and a casting slot, having the first ingredient go in the flavor slot and having the second ingredient determine the spell that is cast (which would get rid of that pesky casserole monster). Spell ranks would influence the effectiveness of the flavoring and the power of the spell. So, instead of having to deal with 9 different reagents and a list of spell effects based on combinations, you pick your flavor then you pick your spell. Cast spells go on cooldown, but picking flavors does not, so you can spread out the flavor bonuses or pile on one flavor across the field.

Q W E or R initially determine the flavor. Casting Q W E or R gives you the flavor buff and then replaces your spell bar with Q* W* E* and R*, which represent the unique spells. Casting Q* W* E* or R* would cast that spell (this is where the mana cost comes in) and include the flavoring effect, then put that spell (the * spell) on its cooldown and clear the flavoring, returning the spell bar to the flavor list (flavors have no cooldowns). I could make R 2 things: a unique flavoring (perhaps a stun) that has a medium cooldown, or have it add all 3 flavorings to the spell and use a traditional charging ammo system (like Teemo shrooms, or just a cooldown). The cooldowns would activate when the * spell is cast. R* would probably be another unique spell with ultimate quality damage/cooldown, and possibly have it boost the QWE flavoring effect by a %. Ranking up R would provide a cooldown reduction to the flavor effect and standard scaling on the R* spell.

This brings up a problem with balancing and providing each flavor its own appeal for different situations instead of just having one god tier flavor and two meh flavors. It's almost just like Sona's Power Chord, except that you're balancing it for 4 spells that it affects instead of just one. The nature of the * spells as well as each individual flavor effect will determine what should be done. The * spells would most likely produce the same effect as the flavoring. They'd have to be applied in different ways via AoE, skillshot, targeted, ally/enemy, or even on-hit. They'd also need to be more than twice as powerful as the flavoring effect. One solution would be to offer slightly different methods of applying flavor vs spell, i.e. Q (flavor) reduces damage taken on ally or reduces damage done on enemy while Q* (spell) shields or heals allies.

Ranking up spells increases both the "flavor" effects and the "cast" effect. So a rank 2 Meatball flavored with rank 5 Herbs would apply Q's rank 5 flavor and W's rank 2 spell.

R - UltimateFlavor - Seasoning Blend: Applies Herbs, Hot Spices, and Parmesan flavor effects (possibly increased by a small scaling %)Cast - Into the Pot: Large, channeled, champion-centered AoE. All enemy champions caught in the effect are pulled into the pot, becoming suppressed and untargetable. After 2 seconds, they are expelled from the pot, taking damage and returning to their original location. A scaling % of the damage done to the enemies is then distributed evenly among nearby allies as healing. All affected units(Removing the suppress effect expels them immediately for damage, but flavors will not apply). Relatively long cooldown.

OR

Flavor - Bitter Chocolate: Allied Effect - large tenacity bonus for a few seconds | Enemy effect - stunCast - Molé Fountain: Creates a fountain of Molé at target location that damages enemies once (and applies increased flavor effect) and remains for a few seconds. Allies within range gain reduced damage taken, increased ad/ap, and increased movement speed, as well as the flavor effect (similar bonuses will stack) - or - Allies within range gain 50/75/100% of the effects from all flavorings available.

As for a passive, it could have something to do with flavoring affecting auto attacks (it would work if chef attacks with a spatula and uses the spatula to stir the pot, leaving the flavor on the spatula) for a certain time period (possibly while the flavoring is in the pot or gained after casting spells) but that would probably just pile on the possible effects so I'd like to stay away from that (since I already did it with Rennal). I could make the passive cause the chef to always gain the flavor bonus when casting a spell, or cause the flavoring effect to be boosted by a % once every 30 seconds. Another thing could be just having the fact that you apply flavorings to spells be the passive. The best thing is probably to add some other independent effect, possibly some sort of stat aura having to do with the aroma of cooking, which could apply permanently or for a duration after spellcasts. It would probably be mana regen related and scale off of chef's mana, chef's mana regen, or the cost of the spell.

oh, and for reference, it'd probably be a melee champion with beefy stats, sort of like Taric.

some visual theme pieces would be: apron, hair net or fancy chef hat, spatula, cooking pot, backpack with ingredients or a belt with ingredients (someplace to keep all the food). Animations - for flavoring, chef tosses the ingredient and catches it in the pot then begins stirring. For casting, chef tosses the contents of the pot outwards. Auto attacks could involve striking with spatula or pot.

Last edited by Zarkof on Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:54 am; edited 3 times in total

Never really played Invoker before, I can see how this is similar. Considering how things wouldn't need to be in exact order and the freedom to replace ingredients, I can see this not being as taxing to memorization, and it would lower the skill ceiling drastically. The ammo system for ingredients though... I see that the passive is trying to keep that in check similar to Nunu's innate, but still, it hurts if someone's being insanely spammy. If she's being support though, it could leave her useless without being to do buff or debuff if she's flinging them everywhere. I guess this would in turn up the skill ceiling, so could it possibly negate what the freedom of ingredients did? Also, the casserole monster just seems random, but the aura benefit helps being a support.

The thing with invoker is that he has cooldowns on the actual spells he casts, so he can cast like 12 spells in one fight. I wanted to limit that capability and make it more of a choice on the player. You have 4 dishes you can serve and the reagents limit how many spells you actually get to cast.

One of the ideas I was poking around with was having each "dish" regenerate the reagents it consumed after a certain duration. So, if you used Q Q and W in one spell, you'd regenerate 2 Q's and 1 W after several seconds. This makes it sort of a "cycle" like Sona has when she's been spamming spells, and to break it you need to wait out the cooldowns again. What I was thinking of doing was having Q W E have 5 ranks and R have 4 but give it to you at level one. R would deal with the reagent cooldowns and ranking it up would reduce the reagent cooldown. When you cast R it puts the reagents you used on cooldown for ~10-9-8-7 seconds so that would be the effective cooldown on every spell.

I didn't know what to do for the QWE combination so I just made it that "mystery meat dish thing that you think could get up and walk around on its own". It's a conglomeration of ingredients, and I couldn't decide if I wanted it to be a spell that does everything very weakly (defend, damage, and control), or have it be something completely different like a pet. It's definitely not set in stone. I still needed some kind of skill scaling on it, which is where the aura and stat scaling come in, but I am considering having the aura only grant tenacity and having the pet's stats be the scaling feature.

Ok, so... wait, if I'm understanding this correctly, it's when the ingredients run out that the cooldown goes off? So then...does that mean you'd be able to have 3 "It Came from the Cafeteria Pot" things at once?

okay, imagine you have 3 cabbages, 3 steaks, and 3 cheese wedges. What I'm looking at is this: each time you use R you'll consume the ingredients in the pot, so lets say you use 2 cabbage and 1 steak. You'll lose 2 cabbage and 1 steak from your ingredients, and you'll proc a timer that will restore those ingredients when it runs out, so in 10 seconds you'll regain 2 cabbage and 1 steak.

If you cast another spell with the remaining ingredients, that will also do the same thing for those ingredients, independent of the first one.

The auras would be unique (I thought I mentioned the bonuses on the aura not stacking). and you could have 4 with the passive free spell.

The other thing I thought of in the shower was to have the Casserole be sort of a super-buff dish, but only work on one ally (whereas all the other spells are AoE). It would reduce damage taken, increase damage dealt, and buff movespeed (possibly 5% +2% per rank for the first 2, 10% +5% per rank for movespeed) and last 3 seconds or something short. You'd create an object at the target area that an ally can click to use. It wouldn't necessarily be a good idea to cast 4 of these in a row, so you'd have to mix up which dish you cook after it.

edit: and no, not like Teemo/Akali. They generate one charge over time that stacks up to three times. This method would be different. Instead of pooling your charges and dumping them all out at one point then having to wait 1 minute to get 3 again, you'd have 3 each and regenerate as many reagents as you used in your cooking spell 10 seconds later.

And now...I'm reminded of Thresh's...Dark Passage I think it's called? Whoever clicks it gets the super buff? I can see that being useful because you don't end up clicking the wrong target. The issue I do see is that people can troll and pick it up for themselves (Say, 1/33/7 Sona, who reeeeally doesn't need it). Of course, I could be misunderstanding again, sorry. >.<

Ah, so they regenerate the whole ammo in 10 seconds then? Like just straight to max.

The problem I see with all Invoker-champions is the burden of knowledge it poses...

It's already hard to keep track of who's affected by Brand's passive and who's not in a teamfight (unless you burst and assume all targets will get hit by the previous spells), if you have to keep track of multiple buffs, 3 different "ammo"s, the current ingredient stack (eg. QW), the possible outcomes (10, with somewhat different effects)... This just has way too big of a cognitive load...

I think something simpler would be like Q/W/E have different focuses (like right now). Q/W/E has instant effects, and give an over-time buff (small). Q/W/E also have an additional effect if you are affected by a Q/W/E buff. R is a chomp, innate helps you with mana/resource(like right now).

What it keeps from the Invoker : Combos/Mixes, versatility in effects (although very toned down, I don't want the effect to be the main point, just a nice plus... Like Sona's Powerchord).What Invoker has that it doesn't : Versatility in spells (only 4 different spells instead of 10 or 27).What it has the the Invoker doesn't : Intuitivity (Q/W/E always do something and always will. There may be an added effect), Predictability (You know roughly what he can do after ~5-10 minutes), Versatility in styles (You can choose to burst, or to do sustained damages... either Q+W(Q)+E(QW)+repeat, or Q(E)+W(Q)+E(W)+repeat).

What you're suggesting is an interesting alternative to one of my other "versatility through unique buff combinations" ideas (see Implementing Melia's Mechanic), mainly the path that falls under the "invoking spell" producing additional effects based on the current buffs the champion has. This would prove promising for a purely offensive champion (mostly for simplicity's sake, not having to have 'on ally cast' vs 'on enemy cast' flavor effects which could still be done regardless), where the added effects would be the same for each ingredient (for example: q flavor always reduces damage, w flavor always deals more damage, e flavor always slows) which is somewhat the same thing I was trying to accomplish here.

This opens up another option: Have a flavoring slot and a casting slot, having the first ingredient go in the flavor slot and having the second ingredient determine the spell that is cast (which would get rid of that pesky casserole). Spell ranks would influence the effectiveness of the flavoring and the power of the spell.

Q W E or R initially determine the flavor. Casting Q W E or R gives you the flavor buff and then replaces your spell bar with Q* W* E* and R*, which represent the unique spells. Casting Q* W* E* or R* would cast that spell and include the flavoring effect, then put that spell (the * spell) on its cooldown and clear the flavoring, returning the spell bar to the flavor list (flavors have no cooldowns). I could make R 2 things: a unique flavoring (perhaps a stun) that has a medium cooldown, or have it add all 3 flavorings to the spell and use a traditional charging ammo system (like Teemo shrooms). R* would probably be another unique spell with ultimate quality damage/cooldown, and possibly have it boost the QWE flavoring effect by a %. Ranking up R would provide a cooldown reduction to the flavor effect and standard scaling on the R* spell.

This brings up a problem with providing each flavor its own appeal for different situations instead of just having one god tier flavor and two meh flavors. It's almost just like Sona's Power Chord, except that you're balancing it for 4 spells that it affects instead of just one. The nature of the * spells as well as each individual flavor effect will determine what should be done. The * spells would most likely produce the same effect as the flavoring. They'd have to be applied in different ways via AoE, skillshot, targeted, ally/enemy, or even on-hit. They'd also need to be more than twice as powerful as the flavoring effect. One solution would be to offer slightly different methods of applying flavor vs spell, i.e. Q reduces damage taken on ally or reduces damage done on enemy while Q* shields or heals allies.

R - UltimateFlavor - Seasoning Blend: Applies Herbs, Hot Spices, and Parmesan flavor effects (possibly increased by a small scaling %)Cast - Into the Pot: Large, channeled, champion-centered AoE. All enemy champions caught in the effect are pulled into the pot, becoming suppressed and untargetable. After 2 seconds, they are expelled from the pot, taking damage and returning to their original location. A scaling % of the damage done to the enemies is then distributed evenly among nearby allies as healing. All affected units(Removing the suppress effect expels them immediately for damage, but flavors will not apply). Relatively long cooldown.

OR

Flavor - Bitter Chocolate: Allied Effect - large tenacity bonus for a few seconds | Enemy effect - stunCast - Molé Fountain: Creates a fountain of Molé at target location that damages enemies once (and applies increased flavor effect) and remains for a few seconds. Allies within range gain reduced damage taken, increased ad/ap, and increased movement speed, as well as the flavor effect (similar bonuses will stack) - or - Allies within range gain 50/75/100% of the effects from all flavorings available.

edit: As for a passive, it could have something to do with flavoring affecting auto attacks (it would work if chef attacks with a spatula and uses the spatula to stir the pot, leaving the flavor on the spatula) for a certain time period (possibly while the flavoring is in the pot or gained after casting spells) but that would probably just pile on the possible effects so I'd like to stay away from that (since I already did it with Rennal). I could make the passive cause the chef to always gain the flavor bonus when casting a spell, or cause the flavoring effect to be boosted by a % once every 30 seconds. Another thing could be just having the fact that you apply flavorings to spells be the passive. The best thing is probably to add some other independent effect.

oh, and for reference, it'd probably be a melee champion with beefy stats, sort of like Taric.

some visual theme pieces would be: apron, hair net or fancy chef hat, spatula, cooking pot, backpack with ingredients or a belt with ingredients (someplace to keep all the food). Animations - for flavoring, chef tosses the ingredient and catches it in the pot then begins stirring. For casting, chef tosses the contents of the pot outwards. Auto attacks could involve striking with spatula or pot.

_____________________________________________________

Now that that's out of the way, the idea you're suggesting seems to fit more with an offensive-based mage. Perhaps a color based artist. Each spell belongs to a color and casting a spell would be like dabbing his brush into that color. Doing so leaves a bit of that color on his brush for a while which adds that sort of a hue (effect) to the next spell. Like you suggested, the bonuses would be similar to the first color(s) but scaled down in effect (to about 25 or 30%) or similar effects along the same lines.

Well, I skimmed your post so don't diss me too much if I missed some details pls (It's still a concept I'm not quite interested, so it's hard to read such a wall of text... but I do love both the chef part, and the combo-y part.)

First of all, I do believe that my idea would actually work better for colors, now that you talk about it. As for the kit, I imagined something along the lines of (if we're looking at a support, but I'm sure I could tweak it into any roles...) :

Innate : GourmetRestore some (semi-high) mana if you didn't cast any spell in the last 12s.

R : Ladle SwingTaking out its lead laddle, CHEFCOOK hits every enemies in range (0.4s of untargettable per nearby enemy) stunning them for 2s.For 20s after casting this spell, CHEFCOOK benefits from enhanced AA (most probably extra damage scaling on bonus AD and a slow).

Of course, I could make him a little bit more straight forward but I didn't want to have a... cookie cutter build. *Badum-Tss*

ah, the bonuses you were suggesting were more along the lines of spell mechanics rather than buffs/debuffs that have to do with the spell the effect came from. I was under the impression of something more like this: (artist concept)

_Q Blue - Low damage, lowers target's damage by 10%, gain AP based on small % of their AP (draws line from target to artist). Subsequent spells cast within a few seconds have strong spell vamp - defensive based residual effect_W Green - dual effect dash+vector damage (select the vector, then instant damage in that vector and character dashes in the same direction dealing same damage but from his location, like parallel paint strokes) short length, high cast range. Subsequent spells cast within a few seconds slow targets (small, stacking effect) - mobility based residual effect_E Red - High damage aoe nuke (like a paint blotch). Subsequent spells cast within a few seconds deal stacking DoT (like Darius bleeds) for small damage - damage based residual effect_R Black - Create large growing ground AoE (like ink seeping through the paper) that slows (medium strength), after a couple seconds erupts to deal massive damage and silences for ~2 seconds. Subsequent spells cast within a few seconds silence for 0.5 seconds. - silence on residual effect

Or, you could do a sort of plague champion where spells would leave parasites in targets, creating a color coded 'mark' that effectively increases the effect of the spell that placed it when another spell triggers it and consumes it. Like if every spell applied a different mark of the assassin or like Kat's bouncing blades, so like this:

_Passive - every ~20 seconds, champ's next auto attack stings target for bonus damage and activates insect effects._Q locusts - slow moving aoe skillshot swarm of locusts deals some %current hp damage and returns flat health for every enemy hit (more for champions). leaves green Locusts on targets which will activate if another spell hits the target, dealing small %max hp and healing caster for same amount. -%hp spell with %hp lingering mark_W bees - throw beehive at target location which leaks honey that slows, angry bees damage nearby foes every half second. leaves yellow bees on targets affected which sting if target is affected by another spell, dealing small damage and slowing target (weak)- slow spell with slow lingering mark_E mosquito - target unit is swarmed by mosquitoes that bite to deal damage and weaken target's damage output by %. Mosquitoes leave Red bug bites, causing target to itch violently and be unable to attack or cast spells for 0.5-1.5 seconds if activated by other spells - defensive spell, defensive lingering mark_R black fly swarm - champion channels for up to 3 seconds, summoning a swarm of hungry black flies around him. AoE radius and duration increase based on channel duration (min 2 sec 300 radius minor damage, max 10 sec 700 radius major damage). flies deal small damage every half second, activating parasites on targets and leaving bites that cause targets to suffer additional damage if activated by other spells (but not black fly swarm) - lots of damage if spell combos are utilized properly, allows for all marks to be triggered (flies begin dealing damage immediately and duration includes the time you spend channeling, so this effect will appear to grow as you channel)

To me, it makes more sense to have a lingering effect follow the same lines as the spell that left it. It makes the combinations a bit more clear as to what effect you can prioritize. Some of the options you offered seem a bit vague (like the lowered cost and cast range buff) and not as good as 20% effectiveness (which I'm assuming applies to damage as well), but then you put that on the pure defense spell so idk. The effects need to be intuitive. I want my Q spell to do X and I want things that happen because of Q to be X things, not Y things. If Q is a long range ability, then the Q effect can be increased range. If W increases a stat, then W effect can increase effects. Shooting a carrot doesn't really say "things go further now!" to me. Focusing on a faraway target and consequently increasing your ability to cast at a further range makes sense to me.

But yeah... I love how with only 1 mechanic, we could choose to go with a cook, an artist and a "parasitic" dude, with only a slight tweak on how they work (Cook=combos, artist=lingering buff, parasite=lingering debuff). I'm pretty sure if we keep at it, we'll end up with even more concepts ><.

EDIT : looking back, my lingering effects last too long to attain my goal, I would need to reduce CDs and "buff timer". Something like 4s for effects, and ~5-8s for casts. Also I wanted to make clear that the only reason I didn't give my champion a heal is because of its "unlimited" mana (innate).

Additional combos could be : Innate : Heal after a while, Mana after a while... I think I'd go with an AoE (Mana over 2-3s) thing every 20-30s When out of combat, time passes twice as fast.Q : Damaging skillshot, refund some mana on hit, reduced mana cost.W : Defensive buff, increase ratio/potency of following spell casts.E : High utility, low damage skill, increase CDR by (at rank 5) 5-10% for ~90% of cd, stacks 2-4times.R : Heal an AoE, gives spellvamp + lifesteal for ~10-25s.

What I like with the first approach instead of the 2nd, is that 2nd feels a loke likt Yorick... He does a spell, and that spell has a lingering effect (MS, LS, Slow, HP). The lingering effect is always pretty much exactly what the initial was. The fact that there is no targetable sprites combined with the effect is already a bit different, but I feel that only tweaking that makes it lackluster...

So yeah, right now the levers we found to slightly tweak the champion : - Common effect vs common goal. - Effects linger on you vs target. - Effects consumed after 1 cast or not (this one could allow for an "invoker", but yeah, burden...). - Kind of effects (self-buffs, on-spell added effects, debuffs, on-target added effects).

And I'm probably missing some... So basically, I could start from here and design 2-3 champions who looks nothing alike but still are fundamentally the same...