Yes, well, the Bible isn't a science textbook and the Fathers lacked modern scientific knowledge. It is a rather poor excuse to continue to embrace ignorance.

the Fathers experienced theoria and thus understand the ways of God and the Scriptures attesting to Him light years beyond any understanding I have or secular science can have. of course modern science knows more about the modern world than the Fathers, but the Fathers understand Genesis more than scientists. They can tell us if it has scientific implications or not. No one was there to observe Creation, but we have a record of it from God Himself. The words of God are left to the Church to illuminate for us, not scientists. Scientists should stick to their own field rather than assuming today's world is the key to the ancient past, because we know that the pre-fallen world is totally foreign to our fallen experience. its completely beyond our comprehension as many Saints have attested to. We can only understand what God shows us, through the Prophet Moses and the Fathers/Church. the Scriptures belong to the Church, its really that simple.

the Fathers experienced theoria and thus understand the ways of God and the Scriptures attesting to Him light years beyond any understanding I have or secular science can have. of course modern science knows more about the modern world than the Fathers, but the Fathers understand Genesis more than scientists. They can tell us if it has scientific implications or not. No one was there to observe Creation, but we have a record of it from God Himself. The words of God are left to the Church to illuminate for us, not scientists. Scientists should stick to their own field rather than assuming today's world is the key to the ancient past, because we know that the pre-fallen world is totally foreign to our fallen experience. its completely beyond our comprehension as many Saints have attested to. We can only understand what God shows us, through the Prophet Moses and the Fathers/Church. the Scriptures belong to the Church, its really that simple.

This all depends on if someone believes in a monogenist (literal Adam and Eve) beginning to humanity and some Genesis-esque "Pre-Fall world". I don't, nor have I ever. Therefore I, and many others, believe that science will provide amazing insight into our origins, whether it is the origin of humanity or of the cosmos itself. The Word of God left us nearly two millennia ago, what we have now is Scripture written and compiled by men, then there are the holy, pious, yet fallible Saints and Church Fathers, and a Church to help us sort through it all. Experiencing theoria doesn't make them less human nor less erroneous on a variety of subjects (cosmology, astrobiology, abiogenesis, biological evolution, physics, etc). One of the greatest mistakes people and the Church could make is to toss aside science, since it truly is a journey of self-discovery. Hence, why I cannot recommend various things by Father Seraphim Rose. Creation is absolutely awesome and humbling when viewed through the lens of science. What is more religious than that?

« Last Edit: December 06, 2009, 03:26:26 AM by Nebelpfade »

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As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS

the Fathers experienced theoria and thus understand the ways of God and the Scriptures attesting to Him light years beyond any understanding I have or secular science can have. of course modern science knows more about the modern world than the Fathers, but the Fathers understand Genesis more than scientists. They can tell us if it has scientific implications or not. No one was there to observe Creation, but we have a record of it from God Himself. The words of God are left to the Church to illuminate for us, not scientists. Scientists should stick to their own field rather than assuming today's world is the key to the ancient past, because we know that the pre-fallen world is totally foreign to our fallen experience. its completely beyond our comprehension as many Saints have attested to. We can only understand what God shows us, through the Prophet Moses and the Fathers/Church. the Scriptures belong to the Church, its really that simple.

This all depends on if someone believes in a monogenist (literal Adam and Eve) beginning to humanity and some Genesis-esque "Pre-Fall world". I don't, nor have I ever. Therefore I, and many others, believe that science will provide amazing insight into our origins, whether it is the origin of humanity or of the cosmos itself. The Word of God left us nearly two millennia ago, what we have now is Scripture written and compiled by men, then there are the holy, pious, yet fallible Saints and Church Fathers, and a Church to help us sort through it all. Experiencing theoria doesn't make them less human nor less erroneous on a variety of subjects (cosmology, astrobiology, abiogenesis, biological evolution, physics, etc). One of the greatest mistakes people and the Church could make is to toss aside science, since it truly is a journey of self-discovery. Hence, why I cannot recommend various things by Father Seraphim Rose. Creation is absolutely awesome and humbling when viewed through the lens of science. What is more religious than that?

Fighting Gnosticism I see (or have we given up the fight?).

Self-discovery is right, not to mention self-referenced. Ah, the dilema of empirical science, it depends on a self that cannot extracate itself from the equation.

Science cannot reach back to any Pre-Fall World that Genesis tells us about, hence it denies its existence. Many of those engaged in modern science spend a lot of there time trying to concock an alternative to Creation: hence there is nothing to see through that lens.

Science is nothing more than technology, which is good in and of itself. Any claims further than that and science goes over its head. It answers how, but can't answer why.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

I read preciously little of what he wrote, but what I read written by him about biological evolution, I consider a lunacy and a complete, blatant ignorance. Just IMHO. Sorry, Father Seraphim, I know you were a good man, pray for me, a sinner.

Two major modern theologians of the Russian Orthodox Church have writen sympathetically of evolution.

Do a google search using the names of (Archbishop) Hilarion Alfeyev and (deacon professor) Andrei Kuraev.

I cannot see that Fr Seraphim should be held up as an outstanding theologian (there is, people say, much that is wrong in his writings) but I am recommending him for his heroic struggle with his own sexuality. He is similar to Saint Augustine whom the Orthodox would draw back from recommending as a theologian but will praise him for the repentance and piety found in his Confessions. He is a model of repentance; Fr Seraphim offers a similar model of repentance for our sex-obsessed century.

He would provide a suitable intercessor for those struggling with same-sex attraction. In this way, in his own spiritual and moral struggles he may provide more comfort for the people of our times than modern theologians. We can love him and venerate him for this alone.

Science cannot reach back to any Pre-Fall World that Genesis tells us about, hence it denies its existence. Many of those engaged in modern science spend a lot of there time trying to concock an alternative to Creation: hence there is nothing to see through that lens.

The joys of revelation. You can concoct any story and constantly claim that it is "beyond our understanding" when its validity and history is questioned. Science works at observing the natural world and trying to piece together our past. Genesis, like all primitive creation myths (in terms of literal occurrences), can only respond with "just because...".

Two major modern theologians of the Russian Orthodox Church have writen sympathetically of evolution.

Do a google search using the names of (Archbishop) Hilarion Alfeyev and (deacon professor) Andrei Kuraev.

Do you know any more about Archbishop Hilarion's works on evolution? I've read some by Fr. Deacon Andrey but have yet to stumble across anything by Archbishop Hilarion.

« Last Edit: December 06, 2009, 04:04:39 AM by Nebelpfade »

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As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS