Should St. Joseph’s become a brewpub?

Before responding, at least read Thursday’s TU article about the proposed use by Ravens Head Brewing.

Now, read my opinion, which is slightly (only slightly) more than worthless given my experience in this area:

The Good:

-St. Joseph’s Cathedral is a really cool space. It would make an amazing setting for a brewpub. Beyond that, it’s tough to imagine any other realistic use for the space, unless John McAfee turns it into a secure compound to hide from Belizian authorities.

-The Palace Theater, Times Union Center and many businesses and offices are located within walking distance.

The Bad:

-The neighbors don’t want it.

-The building is in bad shape and will therefore be costly to renovate.

-There’s no off-street parking, unless the church grounds are turned from green space into a parking lot. This would most certainly – and rightly – lead to even more resistance from neighbors. It would also detract from the facility.

-The estimated three million to complete the project will yield too high a debt load for a brewpub that size. I know from experience that initial project estimates are seldom right and will likely be off by as much as 50-100%. I also know that banks aren’t too keen on lending money for brewpub projects in obviously good locations, so it seems unlikely that a bank would back this place.

-There’s a lot of competition within a stone’s throw, including a well-established brewpub with plenty of free parking (The Albany Pump Station). There’s room for another Albany brewpub, but there will be no margin for error in its management.

-The potential owners have agreed to close on Sundays. That is insane. To give up 5 or 7 thousand in sales each week will make it that much more difficult to meet their debt service.

-The neighborhood is marginal at best, meaning many potential patrons will be lost. Before anybody has a fit over that last statement, do an honest assessment of the place. The streets immediately surrounding the cathedral feature many well-kept homes. Once you move beyond that, the neighborhood deteriorates rapidly. Few, if any, are going to drive in from Clifton Park or Delmar to walk around the foot of Arbor Hill to get a meal. The neighborhood itself will not provide enough customers to even fill the bar much less sustain the place.

My bottom line: it’s been demonstrated that brewpubs and breweries can become anchors that help revitalize neighborhoods. Brewpubs generally don’t cater to binge drinkers, so rowdy crowds should not be a concern. Nobody else has proposed a realistic use for the space, so the neighbors may want to reconsider their opposition to this project.

That said, I would advise the Ravens Head people to very closely examine their business plan and estimated start-up costs. Moving into a marginal neighborhood can only work if your debt service is very reasonable and you have enough operating capital to weather hard times. If they have the money and are willing to gamble, it might pay off. The Albany Pump Station is a great example of a brewpub succeeding in what was once a tough location, and it absolutely helped to revitalize downtown Albany.

Sharon Van Etten at St. Joe's back in Sept. of this year.

George de Piro

15 Responses

It seems to me that there are only two alternatives to this business plan for St. Joseph. One, tear it down or two, leave it to fall on its own. The “not in my neighborhood” crowd may want to keep this in mind. And lets be real, that neighborhood is full of renters who tend to be transient and may not even be around to see the completion of this project. BTW, closing on Sunday is insane. Businesses like this moving into a “marginal” neighborhood can have a very positive impact.

That’s an interesting, much more sober (pun not intended) rationale for people to reconsider the project. I’ve been completely in support of the idea, but the points you raise give pause, albeit completely different from the points raised by the neighbors.

One thing you didn’t address, though, is how realistic or significant would it be to the business potential of Ravens Head if they were to also bottle and sell their beer to retailers in the way Brown’s does, for instance? Would that make the business more viable from a number crunching standpoint?

The numbers can look better if you sell packaged beer off premises, but their goal of 7500 BBLs per year out of the gate is unrealistic for a start-up with zero experience and no market presence. It also increases the cost of the brewing and packaging equipment significantly. If they were to build a brewery with a 10K BBL capacity and only sell 2 or even 5K BBL, they’d likely be under in a year.

In the end, it’s really the parking situation that is most damning for this project. A 230 seat brewpub with no parking won’t fly in too many small cities, and certainly will fail in the TenBroeck neighborhood.

It’s a shame, really. There is no realistic use for the building given its residential zoning and lack of parking. I fear it will meet the wrecking ball, which could also dry up the tiny oasis at the foot of Arbor Hill.

As a neighbor I can say that all of your points are extremely valid and what many of us have been saying all along. It seems like a lofty plan and we fear that it is ill thought out and will have detrimental effects aside from just an increase in traffic, parking problems, noise, smells, drunk driving, and yes rowdy patrons. They have proposed an 80 person bar. That seems like a drinking establishment more than a sit down restaurant to a lot of us. I mean I can’t even think of an 80 person bar in Albany.

You also hit the nail on the head with the customers they are trying to attract and some of the problems with our neighborhood. I wouldn’t say marginal but its not Center Square but nor do we want it to be!

agree on all points. Though I think the NIMBY’s of the area are going to win out on this one. Then the building will just sit and sit and sit. If the NIMBYs successfully block this venture then why would any other business want to move there, either?

The parking is definitely the make-or-break option. If they can turn the lawn into a parking lot it will be the thing that keeps me coming back. If I have to drive from the suburbs to downtown and then have to walk blocks (especially in the winter) it’d better be the best beer in the world to keep me patronizing them on a regular basis. People tend to patronize what’s convenient for them and will only endure a haul if the product is really worth it.

I hate to say it, but when it comes to planning a business (or running a business) you really do need to cater to (or at least give considerable thought to) the lowest common denominator. Things like having to walk so much as a block will turn people off. For example: I rarely go to the Lionheart Pub on Madison & Lark because there’s nowhere to park there. A two-block walk seems like a marathon.

As for this brewery, I can’t help but wonder if there isn’t a better location in downtown Albany for them, like the now-vacant Jillians? Does it even have to be Albany? Colonie, Guilderland, Clifton Park?

I’m all for it. It is a creative re-purposing of a unique building that even the neighborhood people trying to preserve it admit is going to go into extreme disrepair and need to be demolished if nothing is done.

I say no. If the neighbors are so rabidly against someone putting this kind of money into revitalizing a run down building in their neighborhood, then they should deal with the consequences when the building collapses. Then they’ll have a nice overgrown vacant lot to look at.

Combined with the other detractors you listed (from experience, no less), and I think the Raven’s Head people should look for a more welcoming neighborhood. I’d throw Lark St out there, but I don’t know if any current vacancies would fit.

I’m of much the same mind. Albany is a very fickle city when it comes to where people choose to patronize, and the smallest miscalculation is often the difference between a solid business plan and a failed endeavor. For a solid example, look at the success of City Beer Hall and the failure of Ballinger’s. There, what seemed to be a location issue (in my mind), was actually an issue of target demographic.

#4 …. Forget about turning the “lawn” into a parking lot. The church takes up most of the property it sits on. There is NO possibility of providing any on-site parking for patrons. That big adjoining green space you see doesn’t go with the church. It’s a city park owned by the city of Albany. Separately deeded with a deed restriction that it must remain a park (as it has been since the 19th century.) There’s no chance of Ravens Head getting their hands on it for parking.

Every time that I drive up and down the streets of Albany and see wasteland, fallen buildings, blighted neighborhoods, homelessness, crime, drug deals, sqaulor, abandonment, filth, dirt, depression, and a general sense of fear and hoplessness, I just thank god that there are people in charge making these wonderful decisons to keep our way of life status quo!

I think all the points made against are valid, but the overwhelming pro of this project, the renovation and improvements to the church itself is being ignored. if the project goes forward and is a huge success then there will potentially be problems with parking and whatnot, yes. however as has been pointed out, and is the most likely scenario for ANY restaurant that starts up, the brewery may go under. so what then? well the neighbors can rest assured that the millions spent on stabilizing the building, the less glamorous stuff like structural integrity and roof work, will have been taken care of for the future and its use by something more acceptable will be much easier to achieve without that work needed. think folks.

perhaps the guys looking at this type of project would like to head over to Schenectady and fix up one of the many churches or derelict buildings all around our downtown? metroplex money and an improving bar scene await. theres a church on franklin for sale right around the corner from bombers.