I think that is why real tai chi or other kungfu will be lost do to people believing in myths like that there is no magic a myth is just that all the stories of masters doing unbelievable things its not magic not a mystical chi .its just hard work and dedication in training. these videos everybody watches are just a way of so called masters trying to make a name for them selfs ask one of them to show you and they wont they will only demonstrate on a student .like i said its just hard work and dedication to the art and a good teacher that is willing to share the truth .and a lot of people dont want to put the work in thats necessary to gain good gungfu

jacob28 wrote:I think that is why real tai chi or other kungfu will be lost do to people believing in myths like that there is no magic a myth is just that all the stories of masters doing unbelievable things its not magic not a mystical chi .its just hard work and dedication in training. these videos everybody watches are just a way of so called masters trying to make a name for them selfs ask one of them to show you and they wont they will only demonstrate on a student .like i said its just hard work and dedication to the art and a good teacher that is willing to share the truth .and a lot of people dont want to put the work in thats necessary to gain good gungfu

Hi Jacob28,

I am not trying to convert anybody with my post. Just giving the other side of the coin some airing. The master in this OP have some real kungfu but his LKJ, ling kong jin (non touch) demo is a combi of external art, qi and whatever but is not taiji LKJ. In other words do not take it as the Gold standard and let it lead the discussion. BTW, he stays in my neck of the woods. Your post is a very good example of more than 90% that respond to these type of demo. So now I would like to address some ''oversights'' of these comments;1) Most of these masters are already famous. So trying to make a name ? 2) Just supposed they are, trying to make a name, by posting these demo and have almost 90%+ negative comments, is going to give their name a boast ? Would any right thinking person used method, strategy that are mostly negative (proven ) to market ones' name, product, company. Would You ?3) Mastery of kungfu takes years of hard work, deligent/committed training. Did these masters said otherwise. Pls show me any of their comments, statements, wedsites to prove. Or is this statement put in to argument and support this type of talk ? Others not in the know would though that these masters did indeed said it. 4) They can only do it to their students and give silly excuses when they cannot do it to you. I am given these '' silly excuses'' as well. Just to recap, the silly excuses are you are not ready, you don't have it yet (boy, these 2 really hurts the big E ) . You might get injured. This takes a bit to eh... explain, so I will leave it for now and see how this post goes.

I am sure most of you have seen it. But to asked if it is even possible, I go back to the taiji classics for some indication. In Paul Brennan translation of Taiji Boxing by Hao Yuerun, under Hand, eye, body, step, essence, energy & spirit ; 2nd paragragh end part - once this theory is grasped, you will have a miraculous subtlety.

In part 5 (which Louis just posted not long ago) The Spirit is GATHERED. End part When you reach this state......... reach the point that you can do whatever you want and everything will happen as you imagine.

Chen Wei Ming - Taiji Dawen

No. (38) Q- Can you listen without sticking ? A - If you can train ........ you can control even without sticking to him.

No.(32) .... unable to approach your body.

No.(44) .... grabbling without grabbling.

Also read (53) (38)

Last but not least (109)..... your powers will be beyond your imagination.

So we have words like unbelieverable, beyond imagination, magical feat, divine speed, written and translated. And what happened is that we see real kungfu (level different) that are all of above description but most called it fake. This is the senario today. Therefore the lost of real kungfu is nobody believed it can be done or learned. There is a saying ; there are hundred of thousands learning taijiquan like hair on a bull but those who master it are like horn on a bull.

You can also read up on GM Wei Shu Ren of Yang style Laoliulu (old six set) in this forum where his student sudden understanding of what is ''form without the form'' Anyway on a sad note, GM Wei passed on earlier this June. Another great master less.

Another reference is GM Gao Zhuaung Fei, Wu style, when he said, '' no form is superior to form''

Pls bear in mind that even as one reaches these level, there are again level within level. So not all of them display identical type of kungfu. For a good break-down of level in Taiji, pls read GM Fang Ning's Ten Levels of Taijiquan.

Each have our own way to learn and what to learn that suit us. Just need to open up our mind a bit.

With reference to GM Wei Shu Ren and John Fung, I know John in the first video, at that time he did not know how to sink his qi to the lower dantain to withstand any form of push. Anyone with good skill can do what Master Wei does in the video, there is nothing "impossible", or "mariculous", about what he does with John.

As for ''no form is superior to form'', then we should read up Cahpter 40 of the Daodejin: 天下萬物生於有，有生於無。No-form may be superior to Form but No-from needs Form to exist, otherwise there is nothing exist under Heaven including No-form, for Form and No-form are complementary opposites, they need each other to be whole, so how can one be more superior than the other?

With reference to GM Wei Shu Ren and John Fung, I know John in the first video, at that time he did not know how to sink his qi to the lower dantain to withstand any form of push. Anyone with good skill can do what Master Wei does in the video, there is nothing "impossible", or "mariculous", about what he does with John.

As for ''no form is superior to form'', then we should read up Cahpter 40 of the Daodejin: 天下萬物生於有，有生於無。No-form may be superior to Form but No-from needs Form to exist, otherwise there is nothing exist under Heaven including No-form, for Form and No-form are complementary opposites, they need each other to be whole, so how can one be more superior than the other?

XJ

Hi XJ,

Re John. The video was posted quite recently but when was it taken I have not idea. I did see some of his own earlier video on youtube 2 years back and he looked to have some good skill. Coming back to words like ''impossible'' ''maigical'' etc, these words are written by past masters(translated by others) and used by those who felt that non touch and hit/push without obvious movement are fake. I do not know if you read through the whole thread but it make for better understanding. Anyway from your comment you seem to know these skill are about energy.

On Chapter 40 of the Daodejin: 天下萬物生於有，有生於無, the explanation on no-form etc. Is that your own understanding or quote from someone on the verse ? First, they are quite a few translations on Daodejin, and the closest in meaning is -- 10,000 things comes from or born from existence/substence/being, the existence/substence/being is born of nothingness/non-being/non-existence. The makeup of this translation is from 3 authors and I put them together as only one word used is different. So your translation (or is it some explanation on the verse itself) does not really tally with the verse alone. Nowhere did it said about complementary or about superiority.

In fact, this verse reinforce what I have quoted. This Daodejin verse is derived from Yi Jing teaching and is a description from the ''back'' (10,000 things) to the Beginning (Big Bang). The Yi Jing decribe it from the Beginning to the end result (10,000 things) ---- First there is void ( O - Wuji ) , then come existence ( 1 - Taiji ) , then Yin/Yang ( 2 - Liang Yi ) then come Trinity ( 3 ) which give birth to the myriad of creation ( 10,000 things/萬物) . --- Since the Daodejin originate from Yi Jing, so it is the same. It also tally with what I wrote on another thread recently ; With Yin/Yang theroy, we practice Taiji (form), to return to Wuji (formless/void/emptiness) . So to me at least, the highest stage is Wuji which is formless.

First there is void ( O - Wuji ) , then come existence ( 1 - Taiji ) , then Yin/Yang ( 2 - Liang Yi ) then come Trinity ( 3 ) which give birth to the myriad of creation ( 10,000 things/萬物) . --- Since the Daodejin originate from Yi Jing, so it is the same. It also tally with what I wrote on another thread recently ; With Yin/Yang theroy, we practice Taiji (form), to return to Wuji (formless/void/emptiness) . So to me at least, the highest stage is Wuji which is formless.

From what you said above, Wuiji is the beginning and the end of our search, so how can it be the highest? A circle only has a highest and lowest point if we make it static, but Taiji(quan) is not static, unless you want to make it so. The same can be said with form and formless (you and wu), they define each other, so how can there be a high and a low when they are in constant motion complementing each other?

First there is void ( O - Wuji ) , then come existence ( 1 - Taiji ) , then Yin/Yang ( 2 - Liang Yi ) then come Trinity ( 3 ) which give birth to the myriad of creation ( 10,000 things/萬物) . --- Since the Daodejin originate from Yi Jing, so it is the same. It also tally with what I wrote on another thread recently ; With Yin/Yang theroy, we practice Taiji (form), to return to Wuji (formless/void/emptiness) . So to me at least, the highest stage is Wuji which is formless.

From what you said above, Wuiji is the beginning and the end of our search, so how can it be the highest? A circle only has a highest and lowest point if we make it static, but Taiji(quan) is not static, unless you want to make it so. The same can be said with form and formless (you and wu), they define each other, so how can there be a high and a low when they are in constant motion complementing each other?

Cheers,XJ

Hi XJ,

Wuji is the beginning and end but our search starts from creation. The way I look at it is that we are one of the ''10,000 things'' creations , that means we are at the resultant end of the cycle/bottom of the ladder and we need to get back up to the Wuji or void state. Or imagine a Circle, Wuji is at the top (North), we are at the South end of the circle and continue to move up/search and goes back up to the Top end (North). You and Wu is Yin/Yang and we need to get back to Wuji via Taiji.

We all have our own defination, so these serves as food for thoughts and I am sure there are those that agreed with you and some with me or have completely different view-point. So good posts nevertheless.