ASHER SAMUEL GHIORA, the witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined and was deposed as follows:

EXAMINATION

BY MR. MCGARRY:

Q. Hi. My name's Mark McGarry. I'm a prosecutor, and I'm inquiring into the death of Lisa McPherson during the period of November of 95 and December of 95. Your name came up as a person that might have some information pertaining to her stay at the hotel during that time frame. You're represented by counsel here, and he'd like to put something on the record before we begin.

A. Basic training, how to -- how to handle trespassers or other -- other situations a security guard would get involved with, some legal training, training as far as how to operate different pieces of equipment or walkie-talkies, for example, computers, fire alarms, things like that.

the Cabanas, that she was emotionally a wreck, so to speak, that she was having people care for her 24 hours and that I was gonna go help on that.

Q. Baxter gave you this briefing?

A. Yes, he did.

Q. Did he give you any guidelines as to how to handle situations where -- in the event that she wanted to leave or requested you to do anything for her or any guests were to show up and visit her, how you were gonna handle those situations?

A. He didn't cover anything if she had requested to leave or if visitors showed up to see her. He did say that if she needed food or water or -- or anything of that sort, to bring it to her. Yeah.

Q. That's it?

A. (Nodding head.)

Q. How were you going -- did you have a procedure in mind that -- in the event that she did want to leave, how you were gonna handle that?

Q. All right.. And this is a typical -- a typical hotel room door with --, it's locked from the outside?

A. Yes.

Q. And you have a key?

A. Yeah, I do.

Q. Okay. And, again, I know you've kind of given a general description of what your purpose for sitting there was, but go over that again for me. What was your purpose for sitting there?

A. Well, my purpose there was if something was needed by the caretakers or by Lisa herself, I would go get it. There was also another purpose of preventing Lisa from either hurting herself or hurting other people, and that was mainly it.

Q. Okay. Anything very eventual -- eventful happen that night, the second night you had a watch?

A. The second night I was there Lisa came out -- came out of the room. I was seated on the bench 15 feet away from the door. She came out of the room and walked toward me. I stood up and she said, "You're not CMO," which is initials for Commodore's Messenger Organization. It's a senior organization in the church. Anyway, she said, "You're not CMO." I said,

"You're right," and she said, "You can't tell me what to do," and I said, "You're right." And then I, you know, put my arm out and pointed in the direction of the door of her room, and she turned around and walked with me back to the -- back to the room She stopped at the threshold of the doorway and said, "I just don't know what's happening" and then said something else to the effect of "I need some help" or "Could you help me?" I don't remember what her words were exactly, though, and then she stepped back into the room, and --

Q. Who was the girl that night that was watching Lisa?

A. At that time it was -- I'm trying to remember her name now. Janice Johnson was the one in the room with her.

Q. All right.

A. Lisa walked back into the room, and then I closed the door, and that was basically it.

Q. That was Thursday night?

A. Yes, it was..

Q. Real late? You had the graveyard shift, right?

A. Right. I'd say it was pretty early in the morning, like two -- two in the morning, somewhere in there.

Q. All right. Did you instruct Lisa she needed to go back into her room when she came out in the hallway?

A. Not verbally. I mean, just with the motion of my hand. That was about it.

Q. Well, by your actions, was that her option? What other options did she have?

A. Well, yeah, I was guiding her back to the room, basically.

Q. Did she indicate she wanted to go somewhere else?

A. No. I mean, she turned around and just walked back over to the room.

Q. All right. Was she having any unusual emotional or mental breakdowns during this period of time that you can -- that you heard outside or that you later heard going on inside?

A. Well, the things she was saying didn't make sense. I mean, it was like she would either start rattling off colors or numbers or scream out a couple times things that didn't make much sense. I mean, once she -- one example is she screamed out "ET phone home" one time, so she seemed like she was not really aware of what was around her and didn't really -- seemed to be emotionally in a lot of trouble mainly.

A. Nothing really eventful. She was still talking, you know, saying things that didn't make any sense. That was about it.

Q. Okay. No violent behavior, no tearing up the room or loud outbursts that you can recall? Was your assistance required any that night?

A. The third night I don't think my assistance was required other than when -- if an attendant had to go into the bathroom or something like that. I mean, loud outbursts kind of occurred the first several nights I was there, so other than that, no, nothing particularly unusual.

Q. What about her eating schedule? Were you providing her -- were you helping in that situation?

A. Yes. On at least two or three occasions I got -- I went and got protein drinks for her, which was like a shake mixed with fruit and protein powder and vitamins. One -- one morning food was brought to her. There was eggs and potatoes in a styrofoam container. She took a fork full of potatoes and started chewing on them and said, "Delicious," and then spit them out, and

A. Lisa seemed to be -- I don't know if you would say a bit more relaxed or not -- not as -- not as violent as she had been before and it wasn't deemed necessary for me to be there.

Q. All right. Was there any -- rather than going through it every day like we were just doing, is there any events where your assistance physically was needed to help out inside where there was an event going on inside the room that required your assistance that sticks out in your mind?

A. The only time that I can recall specifically was Joan Stevens asked me to come in and help her one time. I don't remember what the circumstances -- why -- why she asked me for that, but I came in and I just had Lisa sit down on the bed. That was about -- that was about it. I know that Joan got hit in the eye around that time. I don't know if it was before she came out or after.

Q. All right. Other than the time we've already mentioned, did you notice Janice Johnson stop by any other times?

A. I don't specifically remember anything other than the second night I was there.

Q. All right. Do you recall any -- being present or watching in a -- an injection that was possibly given to Lisa, intervenous injection, a shot?

A. No, not -- not intravenous.

Q. All right. How about other medication other than vitamins and protein shakes? Bavarian Root, anything like that? I mean, as far as pills or sedatives or anything like that, were you present when any of that was administered to her?

A. She was administered a dose of what I knew had aspirin -- and I don't know what other vitamins or anything else may have been in there -- I believe on my third night there.

Q. Were you present when the dentist, Dr. Houghton, visited?

A. That's what I was talking about, yeah.

Q. Oh, it was him?

A. (Nodding head.)

Q. Okay. Can you describe her physical situation as far as her physical health from when you

Q. Okay. If -- if they exist, do you have any problem with us obtaining those reports and reading them?

A. No.

Q. I mean, you don't have any personal objection to that, do you?

A. (Shaking head.)

Q. You have to answer for the record.

A. Oh, no. Sorry.

Q. Any other involvement with Lisa McPherson that I've neglected to ask you that stands out in your mind in reference to these ten days that you were there? And when I ask that question, I mean, did she ever strike you or did she ever -- I mean, you know what I'm talking about? Did she ever do an event that required you to ever do something other than sit outside on the bench?

A. There was one time when I was sitting out on the bench, and I think -- I think this was also on the second night where I'm sitting on the bench and the door to the room opened and I heard Lisa talking, and I went over to the room and I saw Lisa standing there with the doorway open, and Janice Johnson, I think, was inside the room. Lisa said a few things that didn't

make much sense and then she lifted her knee like she was trying to knee me in the scrotum, and then I just kind of moved to the side and avoided it. She said a few more things and then tried to do a two finger eye gouge, and I just blocked her hand and that was it. She went back into the room and I closed the door.

Q. Kind of a Three Stooges move --

A. Right.

Q. -- with the fingers? And then she turned around and walked back in the door -- back into the room?

A. She went back into the room, right.

Q. Was that because you blocked her from leaving, or was that -- why did she do that?

A. I'm not sure. I mean, I was standing there in the doorway. She was standing on the other side and -- I mean, I don't know. She didn't -- she didn't try to ram her way past me or anything or she didn't try to rush at me or anything like that.

Q. Did she tell you that she wanted to leave?

A. No, she didn't.

MR. MCGARRY: All right, Sam. These gentlemen would like to ask you some questions as well. If you want to take a break, we can. Otherwise, we can plunge on through and get finished. It's up to you.

MR. MCGARRY: Okay. (Whereupon, a break was taken.) (Whereupon, a discussion was had off the record.)

BY MR. MCGARRY:

Q. Okay. Back on the record. Sam, in reference to our questions previously about your briefing with Arthur Baxter in reference to how you were gonna deal with Lisa in the event that she came out of the room and/or tried to leave or asked to leave, if your recollection is better at this time after speaking with your lawyer, can you answer that for us now?

A. Yeah. I believe that Arthur told me if she came out of the room, I was to guide her back to the room. I -- I can't recall the exact conversation I had with him, but I -- I somehow got the idea that that's what was supposed to happen.

Q. Any formal training. You probably -- if you're a security guard, you probably did some first aid there, but how about before that, like in high school? Did you take any special medical courses or anything like in high school?

A. Yeah. I took a -- I took a CPR, basic first aid kind of course in high school.

Q. Okay. A So I mean, I've trained -- I can do the auditing that's laid out in the Dianetics book.

Q. Well, I've heard a lot of testimony to OT levels and auditor levels, you know, "I'm a class five." Where are you at there?

A. I haven't gotten onto that -- that training yet.

Q. Okay. So are you -- is it your plan to go into auditing on that side, or are you going to administration? A.. Probably more administration. I mean, you know, eventually I would go into auditor training anyways.

Q. Okay. Are -- is it usual for the security guards to be auditors, or can they be on both sides?

THE WITNESS: When I first went onto this particular assignment, I was shown the two references that the State Attorney mentioned before. Other than that, no.

BY SERGEANT ANDREWS:

Q. All right. So your three months of training really came after your assignment to Lisa McPherson's room; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Now, I just want to know now do you have training on what to do with a person who's having a behavioral dysfunction or a PTS three, if it would make it easier?

A. Well, again, I mean, I have the same that I did then, not much more extensive than that.

Q. Okay. What I'm gonna ask you, then, is you're -- I'll give you a scenario. You're on duty at the church and you're a security guard in the parking garage and someone runs up and -- and you're trying to communicate with them, and all of a sudden you realize

something's wrong, you know. We all can talk to people and realize something's wrong.

A. We're talking about a church member running up to me?

Q. Yeah, a church member, a staff member or it could be a public member, and they're running up and you're thinking oh, my conversation with this person is not going anywheres and this may be a PTS three person. Do you have training that's been provided by the church what you do with that person?

Q. Okay. You said that you were like on these watches from night until in the morning. Were they 11- or 12-hour watches? How -- there was two people doing the watch, I understand. We talked to Alfonso.

A. Right.

Q. And you and him were kind of assigned to the watch, and when he wasn't there, you were there?

A. Nothing really. I know what had happened is usually for several hours before I would go onto the watch at night, I would do other projects. There was an office being set up somewhere else and I was moving around file cabinets and doing things like that.

Q. Okay. So you did the -- you did the security watch for up to like ten days, possibly eight or nine hours a day?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. Did you sleep -- did they have a room provided for you at the Cabanas, or did you have to go back to the Hacienda Gardens to sleep?

A. I went back to the Hacienda.

Q. Okay. Did you ever kind of fall asleep out there on the bench during your watches? I mean, they seem to be very long and -- and in a row.

A. Not that I can think of, no.

Q. Okay. , You said that Lisa came out of the room at one time and immediately said that you're not CMO, and I think I wrote it down as Commodore Messenger Office.

Q. It seemed to me when you said that she was making a lot of sense because she said to you, "You're not CMO, so therefore you can't tell me what to do" -- apparently CMO would have been able to tell her what to do; is that correct?

A. No, not specifically.

Q. They wouldn't be able to tell her what to do?

A. That's kind of hard to say. I mean, CMO is an organization. It's part of the Sea Organization. Members of the CMO would be senior to me. You know, I would have to call them sir, et cetera. Her, as a public person, it would be a bit different. Public people tend to be -- no matter how high within the Sea Org. structure somebody is, a public Scientologist would still be on a first name basis with --

Q. The CMO?

A. -- with the CMO, right.

Q. Someplace, I guess, she got the impression, since down the line -- that the CMO could tell her what to do, apparently, from her conversation with you, but

Q. All right. She comes out of the room, and did you go into the room and check on Janice Johnson? I mean, was there any conversation on how she got out of the room and how she left the room?

A. Yes. A couple minutes after Lisa returned to the room, Janice came outside -- Janice came outside for a couple minutes, and I asked her what happened, and she just said -- I don't remember what her words were exactly, but she said Lisa did something and Janice had mis -- misjudged what she was gonna do and she ended up going out the door instead of whatever she thought she was gonna do.

Q. Okay. So Janice was okay, though? She was okay, Lisa just kind of slipped out the door --

A. Right.

Q. -- on her?

A. Right.

Q. And that would be apparent because when Lisa came, out the door, Janice wasn't behind her?

A. No. I mean, I didn't go into the room. Lisa came out, and then as I was walking with her back to the room, by the time that I was walking back with her Janice had stepped outside of the room, so I -- I don't know where she was in the room at the time

Q. Okay. And you can't remember what Janice said to you about how she got out of the room?

A. Not exactly, no.

Q. How about unexactly? Try that.

A. Just that she had done something which Janice didn't predict was gonna happen --

Q. That's all?

A. -- was -- was the gist of it.

Q. Now, you said in the briefing with Arthur Baxter that he said something to the effect that Lisa was an emotional wreck. Is that what he said or -- or did he give you some other instructions?

A. I believe he said type three. He described it to me a bit as, you know, she would talk and not make sense of what she was saying. At times she would have violent outbursts. That was basically what he described to me.

Q. From your knowledge of the church organization, was it unusual to have a public member

being kept in this motel room? A..I honestly don't know. This was the first time I had -- I had been in a situation like this. I was unfamiliar with what -- what was done in the past.

Q. Okay What did you think of the situation' I mean, I'll just kind of brief it a little bit. You have a public member, Lisa, who's having a behavioral dysfunction, who's being kept in a motel room, okay, that normally guests and public would stay, 24-hour care givers and a security guard at the door around the clock.

A. Uh-huh.

Q. What did you make of that scenario, which is basically what other witnesses have testified to?

A. What I was told is it was there mainly so that she could be got into -- at least physically her condition could be broughten (sic) up to a point where she had enough rest and enough food that she wasn't having -- she would -- I don't know if I would say refreshed or well rested or whatever.

Q. Okay. I kind of get the impression that -- and you tell me whether this is your impression, too -- that if she's having a behavioral dysfunction and she's uncontrollable, she's there until she becomes controllable. Is that -- am I putting words in your

A. No. I mean, they were basically there to -- I don't know how to put it, but to, you know, make sure that she could -- was basically able to have a peaceful environment around her where she would feel safe. You know, it's like she would have her -- you know, whatever food she needed, she would be able to get rest, et cetera.

Q. The door opens up, you described, no one comes out and so you're 15 or 20 feet away and you walk over to the door?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. When you get to the door, you don't step in, you're still outside the door?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And Lisa attempts to knee you in the groin and poke your eyes -- poke you in the eyes?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. You know, was she acting like one of the Three Stooges at this point, or was she saying something to you?

A. She was talk -- she was saying something that didn't make sense. It didn't apply to anything that was going on at the time. I don't remember what her words were exactly. That --

SERGEANT ANDREWS: I'm not getting the truthful answers. I asked a simple question and he wouldn't answer it. Please don't slam your hand on the table.

MR. DARKEN: You're saying he's not giving a truthful answer.

MR. MCGARRY: Hold it a minute. Let's just everybody calm down. You want a break?

MR. DARKEN: No.

MR. MCGARRY: All right. Let's finish this up. Let's just move onto the questions. He -- you know, just keep asking the question. If you want to pin him down on it, you can do that, but you gotta give him a chance to respond.

Q. Thank you. You said that you were there when they mixed up some aspirin and another liquid to give Lisa with Dr. Houghton. Were you in the room at that time? A I'm not sure what you're asking. I didn't see them mix anything up. I was told it was aspirin.

Q. Oh, okay. So you saw something that was in a -- they were gonna give her, I guess --

A. Right.

Q. -- or liquid?

A. Yeah.

Q. I don't know where to go with that.

A. Right.

Q. You were told it was aspirin?

A. Right.

Q. All right. Were you in the room when they administered this?

A. Yes, I was.

Q. All right. Did -- and I'm just gonna describe what other witnesses say. Did they kind of squirt this into her mouth with a turkey baster?

A. Yeah. I mean, I don't know if I would call it a turkey baster. It was more like a -- well, it looked like a syringe without a needle on it.

A. Big syringe. It had a plastic end on it with a hole which was about an eighth of an inch wide or something. Yeah. I mean, kind of like a syringe without a needle screwed on it.

Q. They squirted -- Dr Houghton, would it be, squirted this in her mouth?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know why they were doing that?

A. I was told it was being administered as a sedative.

Q. But, I mean, she wasn't drinking -- I mean, normally the person, if they gave you a sedative, they would put it in a glass and give it to you to drink. This girl's conscious and she's in this room and they're squirting something in her mouth?

A. Right.

Q. Do you know why?

A. I don't know. I mean, I'm not familiar with how sedatives are normally administered, so for -- for me it was -- that was about all the knowledge I had. It was being administered as a sedative. That was about all I knew. Well, let me put it this way: She wasn't -- through the time I was there, I know that I didn't see her eat or swallow anything that was solid, all right?

A. In relation to this, as far as I know, it didn't have any bearing on it. It happened at a time where there was actually a change in how the -- the particular department was structured. Somebody -- somebody else who had been working in a different area took the post that Paul Kellerhals had and then Paul Kellerhals moved on to be the security chief and Arthur Baxter moved on to be the Sandcastle -- in charge of the Sandcastle security.

Q. Okay. You testified earlier about some liquids and drinking and you used the term "taking in," and I -- I wasn't sure whether that meant -- when you were talking about it whether they were taking the drinks physically in the room because you were outside or that Lisa was taking the drinks into her body. Do you -- can you remember?

A. I don't remember. I mean, I -- I mean, I can remember one time in particular that I walked in with a

Q. So can we say you were born into the church? Would that be correct? Like I was born a Catholic.

A. Right. No, I was born Jewish, so --

Q. Okay. You -- you went back and you clarified a question with Assistant State Attorney Mark McGarry regarding Lisa leaving the room. What about any instructions about her getting visitors?

A. I didn't get any instructions on that.

Q. So as far as you remember, anyone could have come up to that door, knocked and walked in and visited her, any public person, any staff person?

A. No, that -- that -- I couldn't say that was the arrangement. I mean, if somebody wanted to visit with her, I would probably -- I probably would have asked them to either see Arthur Baxter or Paul Kellerhals first.

Q. Okay. You -- I guess you were under the impression that she was not allowed to have visitors unless it came through your supervisor?

A. Well, let me put it this way: It was mentioned earlier that according to the scriptures of Scientology, you're not supposed to talk to a person in this condition, right.

be -- that would be the purpose of them visiting, so I would want them' to go through somebody at least who -- who was a bit more involved from the -- I don't know if I would say the technical aspect of it before I would just allow them to go in and have a chat.

Q. So from your perspective, no visitors allowed then; would that be correct?

A. Yes.

Q. You said you went in and assisted with Joan Stevens. Isn't that the time we're talking about the syringe and her getting the sedative?

A. No. That was a separate incident.

Q. Tell me me a little bit about the incident where you assisted Joan Stevens.

A. Basically, I was sitting -- sitting outside and Joan Stevens poked her head out and asked me to come in and help her. That's' what happened. I came in. I put my hands on Lisa's shoulders and had her sit down on the bed, and that was about it. Nothing happened after that. I left the room. Q..Anybody else in the room with Joan?

Q. A blouse or a pair of pants? A I can't remember what she was wearing.

Q. Was she partially naked?

A. I don't think she was.

Q. Okay. She was partially dressed but not partially naked?

A. I don't -- no, I said I don't remember what she was wearing. I mean, I do remember she had something on. I mean, it may be the difference between if her shirt was buttoned up or not buttoned up. I just can't remember exactly what.

Q. Okay. Just a couple more things. Remember when Sergeant Andrews asked you the question about the situation -- what did you think about the situation? Do I need to go back and rephrase that or do you still remember what we're talking about, about Lisa -- about a public person being locked up in a room with a security guard out front? Do you remember that conversation?

Q. Okay. Do you remember -- have you still got that in your mind, that question?

A. Yeah.

Q. Okay. Your answer was "What I was told." You never did answer the question. What was your impression? I want to know what was your impression of the situation, not what you were told but what was your observation,, what was your impression?

A. I think the question is kind of general. Are you asking me for my opinion of what --

Q. We can go back and read it if you want.

MR. MCGARRY: Let's don't make her do that. That's very involved. What is it you want to ask him right now?

DETECTIVE CARRASQUILLO: I want to know what his impression is of the situation with the public person in a room detained with care givers, security guard out at the front. That was the question. Was that the question?

impressions, to have a public person staying in a hotel room with care givers 24 hours a day and security guards out front of the door?

A. Well, okay. The average guest that comes to the hotel doesn't get that. In her case, I would say that it was very evident that she was unable to care for herself, which made it necessary to have care givers there with her.

Q. Okay. - And that was your impression, that she could not care for herself?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. Okay. Now, I want to touch briefly on her physical well being. When you first got there, obviously she was coming up to the door, she was opening the door. She came out of the room at one time, and then you said there came a point where you were no longer needed and she left -- and you left; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. At that point in time, what was her physical condition actively-wise? Was she walking around in the room? Was she coming out?

A. She wasn't coming out. She was walking around. She was standing up, walking around, sitting down. It varied. Laying in the bed for short periods

Q. Okay. And in relation to that answer now, when -- when the sedatives were given to her, was it way before that or near the end of your stay?

A. The sedatives were given to her, I believe, on the third night I was there.

Q. So it was at the beginning of the stay?

A. Yes.

Q. One real quick question. When they were giving her the sedatives, was she being held down?

A. Yes, she was.

Q. Okay. Do you remember who was holding her down?

A. It's kind of hard to say. I mean, I can name off who was in the room at the time. I can't remember exactly where everybody was.

Q. Okay. Well, do that.

A. Okay. David Houghton was in the room, I was in the room, Heather Hoff was in the room, I believe Rita Boykin was in the room. I can't say that for sure. That's all I can -- that's all I can remember exactly.

STATE OF FLORIDA )
COUNTY OF PINELLAS )
I, the undersigned authority, certify that
ASHER SAMUEL GHIORA personally appeared before me and
was duly sworn.
WITNESS my hand and official seal this 16th day of
May, 1997.
KRISTINE M. BLAKE, RNR,
Notary Public - State of Florida,
My Commission No. CC523799,
Expires: 2-21-00.
[Notary Seal]

STATE OF FLORIDA )
COUNTY OF PINELLAS )
I, Kristine M. Blake, Registered Professional
Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did
stenographically report the sworn statement of
ASHER SAMUEL GHIORA; that a review of the transcript
was not requested; and that the transcript is a true
and complete record of my stenographic notes.
I further certify that I am not a relative,
employee, attorney, or counsel of any of the parties,
nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties'
attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I
financially interested in the action.
DATED this 16th day of May, 1997.
KRISTINE M. BLAKE, RNR,
Notary Public - State of Florida,
My Commission No. CC523799,
Expires: 2-21-00.
[Notary Seal]