He really has a lot of arrogance to speak about things that are outside his field of expertise. I wouldn't presume to know so much about science that I would argue with him about it, so why does he presume to know so much about spirituality and religion to make such ridiculous and sweeping statements about it? I know that it is not just atheists that are arrogant. I can't stand arrogant religious fanatics either, but arrogant atheists really get under my skin.

Oh please, being raised Protestant is A LOT worse than being raised Roman Catholic. Roman Catholics are generally sensible people tbh, whereas the craziness and weirdness--which I would classify as child abuse to an extent--usually comes from restorationist or really low-Church Evangelical Protestantism.

EDIT:

For the record, I personally think that FORCING any religion on a child--even when they explicitely have stated that they do not adhere to it--is a form of child abuse. Then again, I would also say that this could also apply to the strict materialism that atheists may try to indoctrinate their kids with.

Oh please, being raised Protestant is A LOT worse than being raised Roman Catholic. Roman Catholics are generally sensible people tbh, whereas the craziness and weirdness--which I would classify as child abuse to an extent--usually comes from restorationist or really low-Church Evangelical Protestantism.

EDIT:

For the record, I personally think that FORCING any religion on a child--even when they explicitely have stated that they do not adhere to it--is a form of child abuse. Then again, I would also say that this could also apply to the strict materialism that atheists may try to indoctrinate their kids with.

Knew it, knew you couldnt take a chance to potshot Protestants.

To add some substance to it, I dont exactly disagree with you up until your edit, but i know some God fearing and good friends of mine, who were Protestant.

Re your edit, while I dont have kids, i know that, when they do come with my fiancée(at which point, my wife), theyll be attending Liturgy regardless with me every Sunday and whenever I go,up until the age of 18, or when they move out of the house.

...theyll be attending Liturgy regardless with me every Sunday and whenever I go,up until the age of 18, or when they move out of the house.

Religion is something so much more personal and important, where I don't think that it should be forced on anyone--not even children. This is exactly what my parents did to me when I was a preteen and it turned me off to Christianity altogether until I later discovered Orthodoxy. Forcing your child to attend Liturgy will do nothing more but cause them to resent Orthodoxy, and to feel like you do not love or accept them.

And I would say not forcing them to learn about God in the proper way is a demonizing way to raise a child, not only child abuse, but evil with the intent of destroying that child.

You are forcing them to learn about what YOU THINK is the proper way to worship God. A Muslim, or a Protestant, a Jew or a Zoroastrian could all make the same argument that their view of religion and God is proper and that they should teach their children it. But obviously not all of them can be the correct religion. Yet, you--like all of these parents--fall back on the same argument that "Well, MY religion is the true one!" when you really have no way to prove that. Like I said, religion is a personal matter that individuals ultimately need to decide upon themselves--with guidance from their parents however, but not force--opposed to just having it forced upon them. If you are so confident that the God of Orthodoxy exists--which I assert, as well as you--then be confident that He would communicate with your child in someway as he ponders upon the question of religion, and how your child reacts toward God, well, that is up to Him and God--not your business. I highly oppose forcing religion on others. In my own experience having my parents force it on me, it only leads to more harm than good.

Quote

Now what? Last time I checked, children do not get what they want, they get what they need, even when they don't like it.

Religion is more than just a mere childish want but a decision that will affect their life and soul forever--something that definitely should not be decided upon by brute force from your parents.

Lest this turn into a Catholic-bashing thread, let me just point out that Dawkins thinks it's abusive for parents to raise their children with ANY form of religion.

Some people seem to think it's abuse to actually raise your children. Some people think it best to leave children to their own devises. Some people think children are capable of raising themselves. Some people are insane.

...theyll be attending Liturgy regardless with me every Sunday and whenever I go,up until the age of 18, or when they move out of the house.

Religion is something so much more personal and important, where I don't think that it should be forced on anyone--not even children. This is exactly what my parents did to me when I was a preteen and it turned me off to Christianity altogether until I later discovered Orthodoxy. Forcing your child to attend Liturgy will do nothing more but cause them to resent Orthodoxy, and to feel like you do not love or accept them.

And I would say not forcing them to learn about God in the proper way is a demonizing way to raise a child, not only child abuse, but evil with the intent of destroying that child.

You are forcing them to learn about what YOU THINK is the proper way to worship God. A Muslim, or a Protestant, a Jew or a Zoroastrian could all make the same argument that their view of religion and God is proper and that they should teach their children it. But obviously not all of them can be the correct religion. Yet, you--like all of these parents--fall back on the same argument that "Well, MY religion is the true one!" when you really have no way to prove that. Like I said, religion is a personal matter that individuals ultimately need to decide upon themselves--with guidance from their parents however, but not force--opposed to just having it forced upon them. If you are so confident that the God of Orthodoxy exists--which I assert, as well as you--then be confident that He would communicate with your child in someway as he ponders upon the question of religion, and how your child reacts toward God, well, that is up to Him and God--not your business. I highly oppose forcing religion on others. In my own experience having my parents force it on me, it only leads to more harm than good.

Quote

Now what? Last time I checked, children do not get what they want, they get what they need, even when they don't like it.

Religion is more than just a mere childish want but a decision that will affect their life and soul forever--something that definitely should not be decided upon by brute force from your parents.

"Religion is something so much more personal and important, where I don't think that it should be forced on anyone me--not even children as a child. This is exactly what my parents did to me when I was a preteen and it turned me off to Christianity altogether until I later discovered Orthodoxy. Forcing your child me to attend Liturgy church will do did nothing more but cause them me to resent Orthodoxy church, and to feel like you do not love or accept them I did not have their love and acceptance."

Fixed that for you, JamesR. I think your negative experiences with church may have had as much to do with your relationship with your parents, if not more so, than anything else. Your experience was your experience, and not necessarily shared by millions and millions of other people whose parents raised them in a particular church or religion. Deal with it.

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"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire. May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

Lest this turn into a Catholic-bashing thread, let me just point out that Dawkins thinks it's abusive for parents to raise their children with ANY form of religion.

Some people seem to think it's abuse to actually raise your children. Some people think it best to leave children to their own devises. Some people think children are capable of raising themselves. Some people are insane.

+1, again.

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"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire. May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

...theyll be attending Liturgy regardless with me every Sunday and whenever I go,up until the age of 18, or when they move out of the house.

Religion is something so much more personal and important, where I don't think that it should be forced on anyone--not even children. This is exactly what my parents did to me when I was a preteen and it turned me off to Christianity altogether until I later discovered Orthodoxy. Forcing your child to attend Liturgy will do nothing more but cause them to resent Orthodoxy, and to feel like you do not love or accept them.

And I would say not forcing them to learn about God in the proper way is a demonizing way to raise a child, not only child abuse, but evil with the intent of destroying that child.

You are forcing them to learn about what YOU THINK is the proper way to worship God. A Muslim, or a Protestant, a Jew or a Zoroastrian could all make the same argument that their view of religion and God is proper and that they should teach their children it. But obviously not all of them can be the correct religion. Yet, you--like all of these parents--fall back on the same argument that "Well, MY religion is the true one!" when you really have no way to prove that. Like I said, religion is a personal matter that individuals ultimately need to decide upon themselves--with guidance from their parents however, but not force--opposed to just having it forced upon them. If you are so confident that the God of Orthodoxy exists--which I assert, as well as you--then be confident that He would communicate with your child in someway as he ponders upon the question of religion, and how your child reacts toward God, well, that is up to Him and God--not your business. I highly oppose forcing religion on others. In my own experience having my parents force it on me, it only leads to more harm than good.

Quote

Now what? Last time I checked, children do not get what they want, they get what they need, even when they don't like it.

Religion is more than just a mere childish want but a decision that will affect their life and soul forever--something that definitely should not be decided upon by brute force from your parents.

"Religion is something so much more personal and important, where I don't think that it should be forced on anyone me--not even children as a child. This is exactly what my parents did to me when I was a preteen and it turned me off to Christianity altogether until I later discovered Orthodoxy. Forcing your child me to attend Liturgy church will do did nothing more but cause them me to resent Orthodoxy church, and to feel like you do not love or accept them I did not have their love and acceptance."

Fixed that for you, JamesR. I think your negative experiences with church may have had as much to do with your relationship with your parents, if not more so, than anything else. Your experience was your experience, and not necessarily shared by millions and millions of other people whose parents raised them in a particular church or religion. Deal with it.

Eastern Orthodoxy, is not a religion, and it is not a place to be an individual seeking salvation all alone.We gain salvation as a community of believers who hold one another up through prayer and through the Holy Mysteries of the church. Babies and children need the support of the Church community to develop their love of Christ through holy baptism, holy communion and holy chrismation. Would you deny an infant or child food, water, shelter or clothing? When you withhold the holy mysteries from a child you are starving them of the spiritual nourishment of the Church. IN time, they will decide to either accept or reject the church as a full grown adult, but until that time you feed the children.

Lest this turn into a Catholic-bashing thread, let me just point out that Dawkins thinks it's abusive for parents to raise their children with ANY form of religion.

Some people seem to think it's abuse to actually raise your children. Some people think it best to leave children to their own devises. Some people think children are capable of raising themselves. Some people are insane.

How does other people's insanity cover up another form of insanity? Just because others are insane doesn't mean that what you are advocating is not insane.

You have been warned for the personal attack made above. Please try to control your emotions when posting. Count to ten before posting it. If it is heated and you find yourself attacking others verbally then hit the backspace button and voila! your post is gone. -username! Orthodox-Catholic Moderator.

Your experience was your experience, and not necessarily shared by millions and millions of other people whose parents raised them in a particular church or religion. Deal with it.

I'm not denying I had a bad experience. But you'd have to be plain stupid if you would doubt that others don't feel the same way because of having religion forced on them. Take the millions of atheist teenagers in America who sink into depression because their parents won't accept them for who they are and force religion on them, or to the millions of LGBT kids whose parents force them to attend pseudo-scientific dangerous "gay-conversion" therapy precisely because of their intolerance which is rooted in their religion. The point is that a lot of people have bad experiences with religion being forced on them. I find it interesting also that you have no problem with Christians forcing religion on their kids, but I bet that if it was a Muslim or a Buddhist forcing their kid to adhere to Islam or Buddhism and not convert to Christianity, you would think differently.

JamesR, you really think it's "insane "them for a loving parent to teach their child what they believe is the truth, and share one of the most important partsthe of their life with them?

I think it is insane for parents to FORCE their religion on their kids. In fact, I would go as far as to say that it is sick, neglectful, vile and truly is a form of child abuse. It is intellectual butchery, shatters free-thinking and deprives your child of the freedom to truly explore and decide upon the question of religion for themselves--the question that will determine their entire life and the condition of their souls. Essentially, by forcing your child to adhere to YOUR religion, you are practically gambling their life on the religion that you think is true, without even giving them a choice in it.

You are forcing them to learn about what YOU THINK is the proper way to worship...

This is the parents responsibility, their job, their duty, not the childs.

You're insane. When it is a decision that will effect the eternal condition of their soul, you are danged right that it is going to involve the child. Gamble with your own life, not your child's.

Ah, youth, so full of vigor, so short on knowledge and understanding, lacking wisdom from experience.

I remember once thinking I knew more than everyone older than me. I also remember thinking I knew more about what was best for me than my parents. Boy was I stupid back then. I actually had a talk with my oldest about this very thing yesterday.

What I have found best to deal with attitude (with this specific child) when it gets a little too big is to ask a simple question, knowing I will get a short and simply answer, then I toss in all of the variables which are likely to occur. Once I see in the facial expression of total confusion and silence lingers in the air for a moment, I end with, “Or, you could just trust me and not have to worry about all that other stuff.” These discussions usually end with a recharge of, “Dad Knows Best” (You should watch that show, it’s a ringer) and a few months of an obedient child.

James, I like you, at least in the best way a person can on the internet. You seem to be a very intelligent and thoughtful young man. The problem is, you have far too much attitude and arrogance and nothing to back either up in the real world. Take it from someone who had to learn some tough lessons the hard way, it’s a very bad combination. As a parent, I feel confident in saying, “You don’t know Jack.” As your internet friend, I feel confident in saying, “You may not know as much as you think you know.” Either way, the choices you make are yours and yours alone, but I have a bad feeling you listen to what you want to hear and ignore the rest when you have no idea what you are talking about.

Lastly, you will understand if there was no impact in your accusation of my sanity. Let’s just leave it that.

I must be missing something, JamesR, I thought from other threads you are an Orthodox Christian. Why this sudden hatred for teaching religion to children?

I don't hate teaching religion to kids, I hate forcing religion on kids when they do not want it. The reason being that my parents were pretty backwards religiously and neglected me due to religion in the past.

Your experience was your experience, and not necessarily shared by millions and millions of other people whose parents raised them in a particular church or religion. Deal with it.

I'm not denying I had a bad experience. But you'd have to be plain stupid if you would doubt that others don't feel the same way because of having religion forced on them. Take the millions of atheist teenagers in America who sink into depression because their parents won't accept them for who they are and force religion on them, or to the millions of LGBT kids whose parents force them to attend pseudo-scientific dangerous "gay-conversion" therapy precisely because of their intolerance which is rooted in their religion. The point is that a lot of people have bad experiences with religion being forced on them. I find it interesting also that you have no problem with Christians forcing religion on their kids, but I bet that if it was a Muslim or a Buddhist forcing their kid to adhere to Islam or Buddhism and not convert to Christianity, you would think differently.

My advice is stop consuming massive amounts of propaganda by the mouthful. You may choke.

Lest this turn into a Catholic-bashing thread, let me just point out that Dawkins thinks it's abusive for parents to raise their children with ANY form of religion.

Some people seem to think it's abuse to actually raise your children. Some people think it best to leave children to their own devises. Some people think children are capable of raising themselves. Some people are insane.

Some people do not have children, but fancy that they know all about raising them.

Now Dawkins does a wonderful analysis in his book The Selfish Gene, and again in later papers in more detail, of Roman Catholicism. As I'm sure you know he's pretty vehement about Roman Catholicism, largely because his daughter, when he split up from his wife was educated against his will in a Catholic nunnery and it must have been pretty painful for him to see this process happening. So he spells out what happens in Roman Catholicism.

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

You are forcing them to learn about what YOU THINK is the proper way to worship...

This is the parents responsibility, their job, their duty, not the childs.

You're insane. When it is a decision that will effect the eternal condition of their soul, you are danged right that it is going to involve the child. Gamble with your own life, not your child's.

Ah, youth, so full of vigor, so short on knowledge and understanding, lacking wisdom from experience.

I remember once thinking I knew more than everyone older than me. I also remember thinking I knew more about what was best for me than my parents. Boy was I stupid back then. I actually had a talk with my oldest about this very thing yesterday.

What I have found best to deal with attitude (with this specific child) when it gets a little too big is to ask a simple question, knowing I will get a short and simply answer, then I toss in all of the variables which are likely to occur. Once I see in the facial expression of total confusion and silence lingers in the air for a moment, I end with, “Or, you could just trust me and not have to worry about all that other stuff.” These discussions usually end with a recharge of, “Dad Knows Best” (You should watch that show, it’s a ringer) and a few months of an obedient child.

James, I like you, at least in the best way a person can on the internet. You seem to be a very intelligent and thoughtful young man. The problem is, you have far too much attitude and arrogance and nothing to back either up in the real world. Take it from someone who had to learn some tough lessons the hard way, it’s a very bad combination. As a parent, I feel confident in saying, “You don’t know Jack.” As your internet friend, I feel confident in saying, “You may not know as much as you think you know.” Either way, the choices you make are yours and yours alone, but I have a bad feeling you listen to what you want to hear and ignore the rest when you have no idea what you are talking about.

Lastly, you will understand if there was no impact in your accusation of my sanity. Let’s just leave it that.

*sigh* you old folks are so hard to understand sometimes Either way, you're my friend and I guess I believe you.

Even if we concede for the moment, for the sake of argument, that it's always wrong to use force in religious issues, I don't see how you can put using force (which we have conceded is a bad means) to promote Orthodoxy (a good end) in the same category as using it to promote a bad end, like Islam.

Perhaps the ends don't justify the means, but surely bad means to bad ends are worse than bad means to good ends?

Regarding the argument that anyone could say his religion is a good end: Sure, but some of them are wrong. What drives me nuts about you lefties is your trenchant refusal to distinguish between truth and error. It is assumed without proof or even an attempt at justification that we have some kind of ethical obligation to afford every patently false superstition the same privileges possessed by the Truth. And yet, although it is given the treatment of something obviously true, this assumption is anything but. Quite the contrary; on its face it appears ridiculous.

Now, maybe it's wrong to force your children to participate in the one true form of worship. I don't know. But it seems to me that your assumed moral equivalence between that and forcing them to worship false gods and practice wicked superstitions is unjustified.

EDIT: And Dawkins is an arrogant attention whore with his head permanently stuck in his hindquarters whom the thinking population of the world would do well to ignore henceforth.

I have had to read Dawkins because his development of the idea of the meme has implications for some of my linguistics work, and...yeah, I don't really get him, either. His earlier work (from before he became so ideologically/narrowly connected to this one pet issue) isn't bad, but I haven't seen anything in any of his popular writing against religion that would show why he is so beloved by masses of idiots. It's like "The Secret" for nihilists: Everybody loves it because it tells them that they're the center of the universe, even if that is absolutely ridiculous and there's no substance to the actual ideas being expressed.

And James, for the love of all that is good in the world, either start having kids and raising them or shut up about what's wrong or right to do as a parent. And thank your parents for raising you within a church and a faith. Even if you don't understand or like that they did that, a time will come when you'll realize what they've given you, and want to thank them for it. Do it now, while they're still around to hear it. Heck, do it now while you're still here to do it.

You see, parents for the most part do the very best they can. And they ALL make mistakes. Many mistakes. Parents who have a faith (ANY faith--yes, even Muslim or Buddhist or Bahai or whatever) usually think it's best to raise their children in that faith. That's one way faith gets "propagated"--we share it with and teach it to our children. Christians tend to take their children to their Christian church. That helps to teach and propagate the faith. Do you want to tell me that a 1 year old, a 2 year old, a 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11,12, 13, etc. year old knows better than their parents? Do you want to tell me that a screaming, kicking, flailing 2 or 3 year old is doing so because his parents are *forcing* him to go to church? Really? REALLY?? Try again....

As I said before, the crux of your issue is an issue you have within the context of the totality of your relationship with your own parents, and you're projecting that onto all other parents and children quite inappropriately. Deal with your parents and your relationship with them. Pray. Seek guidance from your priest (you *do* have a priest, don't you?), maybe even get some psychological counseling. In other words....deal with it.

If and when you grow up and have children, you will know what I and Kerdy and theistgal and others here are talking about. In the meantime, maybe you should write and opine about things that you have actual knowledge and experience of without assuming that your issues are others' issues.

Also know, too, that NONE of us, not a single individual, survives childhood without scars--some have more, some of less--but we all have them. Deal with it.

And may you have a blessed Nativity feast--Merry Christmas!!!

« Last Edit: December 24, 2012, 12:56:41 PM by J Michael »

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"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire. May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

Well I guess I'll try to take into consideration the advice of you old folks. However, the ad hominems about not having children irritates me because I practically raise my younger siblings as if they were my children. Anyhow, moving on, Kerdy earlier mentioned that he hates the liberal practice of equating all religions as being equal and not distinguishing between the Truth and false religions.

My response is this: Prove it! How can you prove that your religion is the Truth and that the others are false? The point is that any religion will claim that their religion is the Truth and the others are lies, and so unless you can prove that, then they have to be regarded as equal. I'm not denying that Orthodoxy is the truth--because I personally have experienced it--but face it, most people have not. The fact of the matter is that saying your religion is the Truth and that the others are false is sort of pointless because practically every religion--except for some weird eastern Hindu-type relativist religions--assert that their religion is true and the others are all false.

As for Dawkins however, he sort of gets more credit than he deserves. Dawkins is like the Beatles/Tupac Shakur of the atheist world in the sense that he gets the most attention and praise, yet he is not even close to being the most skilled or talented at the practice of his respective genre. People like him because he is popular, commercialized overly-simplified atheism with witty one liners. No offense, but kind of like CS Lewis and Christianity--except, at least in his formal debates and non-published essays, Lewis was actually very intelligent and deep, but in his books he is very simple and basic. The age of atheism died with Nietzche and Sartyre.

Kerdy earlier mentioned that he hates the liberal practice of equating all religions as being equal and not distinguishing between the Truth and false religions.

My response is this: Prove it! How can you prove that your religion is the Truth and that the others are false?

These are two separate and distinct topics for discussion. One being a parenting issue, the other being theological in nature.

In relation to parenting, you (parents) don’t have to prove anything to your child. This is your (James) mistake of understanding. You teach your child what you believe to be the truth. Hopefully, the child learns and becomes a better person, but ultimately, this same child will be exposed to various religions and influences and must make his or her own decision. While the child is at home and being raised, the parent is held responsible for his or her teaching, growing, learning, etc. The child should respect the parent and the parent’s position of responsibility by being a good steward. Once the child is grown and leaves home, he or she is now responsible for their own choices.

While I was growing up, my parents didn’t go to church, but they made me go and I am thankful they did. I hold no animosity toward them for this. I even once, as a child, asked my father why he forced me to go to church but didn’t attend himself. He replied, “I want to you to be a better person than I am.” With my own children, sometimes I make them go to church, sometimes I don’t. Normally I give them the choice of going with me or their mother, as she is still a Baptist. This is my choice, not theirs. However, if I say they go with me, they go with me and I ensure they understand the differences between Baptist and Orthodox. They have Orthodox prayer books which my wife uses at night with them. There is good to learn from both so we don’t do an “either or” option. My job is to teach them and that is what I am doing. Of course, this is a very basic overview and I will decline the specifics as it is my internal family issue.

In relation to the theological, no one will ever prove what you want proven. This is your individual journey to make and either you find enough to convince you or you don’t, but again, as an adult it is your choice and your responsibility to make the right choice.

Kerdy earlier mentioned that he hates the liberal practice of equating all religions as being equal and not distinguishing between the Truth and false religions.

My response is this: Prove it! How can you prove that your religion is the Truth and that the others are false?

These are two separate and distinct topics for discussion. One being a parenting issue, the other being theological in nature.

In relation to parenting, you (parents) don’t have to prove anything to your child. This is your (James) mistake of understanding. You teach your child what you believe to be the truth. Hopefully, the child learns and becomes a better person, but ultimately, this same child will be exposed to various religions and influences and must make his or her own decision. While the child is at home and being raised, the parent is held responsible for his or her teaching, growing, learning, etc. The child should respect the parent and the parent’s position of responsibility by being a good steward. Once the child is grown and leaves home, he or she is now responsible for their own choices.

While I was growing up, my parents didn’t go to church, but they made me go and I am thankful they did. I hold no animosity toward them for this. I even once, as a child, asked my father why he forced me to go to church but didn’t attend himself. He replied, “I want to you to be a better person than I am.” With my own children, sometimes I make them go to church, sometimes I don’t. Normally I give them the choice of going with me or their mother, as she is still a Baptist. This is my choice, not theirs. However, if I say they go with me, they go with me and I ensure they understand the differences between Baptist and Orthodox. They have Orthodox prayer books which my wife uses at night with them. There is good to learn from both so we don’t do an “either or” option. My job is to teach them and that is what I am doing. Of course, this is a very basic overview and I will decline the specifics as it is my internal family issue.

In relation to the theological, no one will ever prove what you want proven. This is your individual journey to make and either you find enough to convince you or you don’t, but again, as an adult it is your choice and your responsibility to make the right choice.

I thought this was a pretty good post Kerdy. This is a fly-by posting because I do not read thread with Dawkins as the subject matter.

Well I guess I'll try to take into consideration the advice of you old folks. However, the ad hominems about not having children irritates me because I practically raise my younger siblings as if they were my children. Anyhow, moving on, Kerdy earlier mentioned that he hates the liberal practice of equating all religions as being equal and not distinguishing between the Truth and false religions.

My response is this: Prove it! How can you prove that your religion is the Truth and that the others are false? The point is that any religion will claim that their religion is the Truth and the others are lies, and so unless you can prove that, then they have to be regarded as equal.

No, they don't. We can, no, we must act on our beliefs, even when they aren't proven beyond doubt. This is why you were baptized, remember?

I'm not denying that Orthodoxy is the truth--because I personally have experienced it--but face it, most people have not. The fact of the matter is that saying your religion is the Truth and that the others are false is sort of pointless because practically every religion--except for some weird eastern Hindu-type relativist religions--assert that their religion is true and the others are all false.

No, it's not pointless. If we disagreed on which religion were true, I could sort of see how you could make this argument. But since we agree, demanding that I prove to you what you already believe is kind of absurd. With very few exceptions, there is some possibility that any of us is wrong about any given thing. The criminal justice system can be wrong. That doesn't stop them meting out punishments. Legislators can be wrong. That doesn't stop them making laws. Parents can be wrong. That doesn't stop them setting the rules for their children. And the list goes on. "Proof" on the strictest possible interpretation for Orthodoxy doesn't exist, at least not in any form that's going to convince everyone. But reasonable belief does, and reasonable belief can be rationally acted on. In other words, your demand for "proof" is spurious.

I can understand James' sentiments even if I don't agree with them completely. A child shouldn't be subject to heavy religiosity or disciplines, its not the time in ones life to focus on adult spiritual concerns. At the same time, we are all going to grow up having secular and religious ideologies thrust upon us (in the US, consumerism and capitalism are two common ones). Atheists are no different in this regard.

I'm convinced now that JamesR just makes up stuff to be angry. There's a handful of "gay-conversion therapy" practitioners at best, there's no way there are "millions of LGBT kids" being subjected to such things.

So how come you all assert that parents should have the right to force their religion on their child and that the child should submit, yet you venerate Saints like St. Christina of Tyre who were Canonized precisely because they refused to adhere to their parents' religion and practiced their own?

So how come you all assert that parents should have the right to force their religion on their child and that the child should submit, yet you venerate Saints like St. Christina of Tyre who were Canonized precisely because they refused to adhere to their parents' religion and practiced their own?

Because the significant fact is not that they were rebellious teenagers but that they rejected evil for God and were martyrs for it.

A cranky teenager that just doesn't want to go to church because they like masturbating and feel ire that anyone dare disagree with it (which really is the vast majority of teenagers that reject God) isn't exactly commendable or of noble intent.

So how come you all assert that parents should have the right to force their religion on their child and that the child should submit, yet you venerate Saints like St. Christina of Tyre who were Canonized precisely because they refused to adhere to their parents' religion and practiced their own?

Because the significant fact is not that they were rebellious teenagers but that they rejected evil for God and were martyrs for it.

So what about present teenagers in this day who actually do find their own religion, become dedicated to it and refuse to adhere to their parents' religion because in their mind they are standing up for the truth? But oh wait, let me guess, if it's not YOUR religion then it doesn't count...hypocrisy.

So how come you all assert that parents should have the right to force their religion on their child and that the child should submit, yet you venerate Saints like St. Christina of Tyre who were Canonized precisely because they refused to adhere to their parents' religion and practiced their own?

Because the significant fact is not that they were rebellious teenagers but that they rejected evil for God and were martyrs for it.

So what about present teenagers in this day who actually do find their own religion, become dedicated to it and refuse to adhere to their parents' religion because in their mind they are standing up for the truth? But oh wait, let me guess, if it's not YOUR religion then it doesn't count...hypocrisy.

I don't have a religion so your feigned superiority is pointless. Anyway, going from Christianity to most other religions would be a step backwards regardless of how devout they are. If they became Muslims and paid attention to the Quran and Hadiths they would become criminals, if they became Hindus and went past the sanitized version taught to westerners they would worship piles of cow poo or even worse - join one of the sects that eat dead people or drink blood straight from the still quivering necks of decapitated goats.

So how come you all assert that parents should have the right to force their religion on their child and that the child should submit, yet you venerate Saints like St. Christina of Tyre who were Canonized precisely because they refused to adhere to their parents' religion and practiced their own?

Because the significant fact is not that they were rebellious teenagers but that they rejected evil for God and were martyrs for it.

So what about present teenagers in this day who actually do find their own religion, become dedicated to it and refuse to adhere to their parents' religion because in their mind they are standing up for the truth? But oh wait, let me guess, if it's not YOUR religion then it doesn't count...hypocrisy.

As a child, what are you commanded to do in regard to your parents? Focus on that. Let them be held responsible for their parenting. I'll never understand a child's rush to grow up and be on their own. It's not as much fun as it once sounded.

It sounded like you were trying to say his idea of Catholic upbringing was legitimate as he had first hand knowledge of it, in which case it is (as he did not).

I see how I could have elaborated. My apologies. For Dawkins, it doesn't matter what group of Christian you are, he thinks we are all crazy. He interchanges group titles with the same statements. He's a hater.

James will not distinguish Truth from error in this regard, because he is super-rationally (and by that I do not mean "very rationally," but rather "in a manner considered to be above reason") committed to treating Truth and error equally in this regard until some undefined "proof" is presented to him that Orthodoxy is the Truth. As such, you will continue to talk past him until he recognizes that he is making an assumption here, that others do not share it, and that it may not be warranted, which I personally think he is unlikely to do, though I would love to be proven wrong.

Incidentally, I was myself sexually abused by a teacher when I was about nine or ten years old. It was a very unpleasant and embarrassing experience, but the mental trauma was soon exorcised by comparing notes with my contemporaries who had suffered it previously at the hands of the same master. Thank goodness, I have never personally experienced what it is like to believe – really and truly and deeply believe ­– in hell. But I think it can be plausibly argued that such a deeply held belief might cause a child more long-lasting mental trauma than the temporary embarrassment of mild physical abuse.

Anecdotes and plausibility arguments, however, need to be backed up by systematic research, and I would be interested to hear from psychologists whether there is real evidence bearing on the question. My expectation would be that violent, painful, repeated sexual abuse, especially by a family member such as a father or grandfather, probably has a more damaging effect on a child’s mental well-being than sincerely believing in hell. But ‘sexual abuse’ covers a wide spectrum of sins, and I suspect that research would show belief in hell to be more traumatic than the sort of mild feeling-up that I suffered.

« Last Edit: January 02, 2013, 09:59:10 AM by Jetavan »

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If you will, you can become all flame.Extra caritatem nulla salus.In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness". सर्वभूतहितἌνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas GandhiY dduw bo'r diolch.

Incidentally, I was myself sexually abused by a teacher when I was about nine or ten years old. It was a very unpleasant and embarrassing experience, but the mental trauma was soon exorcised by comparing notes with my contemporaries who had suffered it previously at the hands of the same master. Thank goodness, I have never personally experienced what it is like to believe – really and truly and deeply believe ­– in hell. But I think it can be plausibly argued that such a deeply held belief might cause a child more long-lasting mental trauma than the temporary embarrassment of mild physical abuse.

Anecdotes and plausibility arguments, however, need to be backed up by systematic research, and I would be interested to hear from psychologists whether there is real evidence bearing on the question. My expectation would be that violent, painful, repeated sexual abuse, especially by a family member such as a father or grandfather, probably has a more damaging effect on a child’s mental well-being than sincerely believing in hell. But ‘sexual abuse’ covers a wide spectrum of sins, and I suspect that research would show belief in hell to be more traumatic than the sort of mild feeling-up that I suffered.

It would be if the idea was that you are going to hell no matter what. He seems to be completely unaware that belief in hell is accompanied by the belief that its completely possible, and easy for children*, to avoid. If there's a child out there that is so bad that the idea they are going to hell enters their mind then their family life is more than screwed up.

*Since they are physically capable of less sins and normally not even aware of some of the possibilities.

I have yet to understand why anyone even listens/reads Dawkins. He is an angry little man, nothing more. Any accomplishment he has made is overshadowed by this fact.

Not to mention he's completely inept at the only thing he thinks he is good at. Check out "The Dawkins Delusion?" by Alister McGrath. The book is simply a point-by-point dissection of "The God Delusion" pointing out his inability to correctly construct the simplest logical syllogisms.

It would be if the idea was that you are going to hell no matter what. He seems to be completely unaware that belief in hell is accompanied by the belief that its completely possible, and easy for children*, to avoid. If there's a child out there that is so bad that the idea they are going to hell enters their mind then their family life is more than screwed up.

*Since they are physically capable of less sins and normally not even aware of some of the possibilities.

And since Jesus said that the Kingdom of Heaven was pretty much chock-full of children, it would stand to reason that it's virtually, if not completely, impossible for a child to wind up in Hell. At least that's my theological heterodox non-Orthodox opinion.

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"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)