Post by rational on Apr 1, 2008 16:11:09 GMT -5

I'm having no such troubles, other than that you prefer that workers who abuse children have continued access to children via their position of trust as workers.

Your statement is, of course, incorrect. Sadly you have failed to point to a single post where I have made a statement that would support your premise.

Maybe I can help you out with this.Let's look at the subset of people who you call workers.

Workers who abuse children should be reported to the appropriate authorities. Should the evidence presented be sufficient, i.e., not just rumors or hearsay, the agency will act and, if it deems necessary to protect children, remove the accused from any venue where they would be a threat to children. If the accused then pleads guilty or is tried and found to be guilty the courts will specify the behavior the criminal must follow to prevent them from being a threat to children.

Thus, workers who are guilty of child abuse will be removed from any activity where they might be a threat to children.

I hope this puts your mind at ease. This will eliminate access to children by workers who abuse children.

The remainder of your insults will remain ignored.

It is difficult to judge the knowledge level of the people who raise questions. Sometimes it appears there is confusion and the explanation could come across as an insult.

Post by rational on Apr 1, 2008 19:23:37 GMT -5

Re: Rational's comment- Thus, workers who are guilty of child abuse will be removed from any activity where they might be a threat to children.

I think being in the WORK (which requires 'living among the people') is "the activity that puts children at risk."

I would not want a known pedophile staying overnight at my house, as I don't usually have to sleep outside my kid's bedroom door to protect them.

I am guessing you have not seen how detailed a court order regarding a sexual child abuser might be. What makes you think staying in your house would be an option even if you would allow it?

In the case of someone like IH, where the abuse occurred in the home of one of the friends, it would be doubtful that the court would allow him to be a home where there are children. The orders are very specific to the case and strive to prevent the abuser from continuing their practice.

Post by withopeneyes (Mandy) on Apr 6, 2008 17:22:28 GMT -5

I will never understand why those who molest children are able to keep their places as elders or workers, while those who divorce, remarry, etc are unable to have positions of elders.

First off, if you found out a minister or preacher was molesting your child, would you trust any of the words from their mouth? Would you want to hear their self-righteous testimony and gospel, knowing, behind all those fancy words, they were doing despicable acts?

I know I wouldn't! A child molester wouldn't be allowed within a certain area of parks, daycares and schools when convicted (in many areas), yet we would allow them in our homes? As much as we may try to protect our children, these people are sick and manipulative. If they want to reach our children, they will figure out how.

A society that denies the supernatural usually ends up elevating the natural to supernatural status. (P. Yancey)

One has only the choice between God & idolatry. There is no other possibility. For the faculty of worship is in us, & is either directed somewhere in this world, or into another. (Simone Weil)

Post by mayeeden on Apr 8, 2008 20:14:11 GMT -5

When I look at the F&W church, I see a priesthood in the workers. They are priests and not just ministers if their position is essential to bridge the gap between a repentant sinner and membership in God's family. No wonder the workers have such admiration among the friends who are in awe of them. If a regular member of the Friends can not lead a seeking sinner to the feet of the Master and pray alongside and coach them with the scriptures until they have met their Lord, then what good are they? If salvation can only come through the intervention of a worker, then that worker must be a priest. Maybe the friends would agree with that conclusion??? I am married to a victim of an elder who had a meeting in his home. She was groomed by him for many years and she was very fond and trusting of him. He picked his victim carefully noticing that she was a fatherless child with an older and overwhelmed mother who did not have a prominent place in the hierarchy of the church. (The lower class if you will). He made his move when she was 13 and attempted another molestation when she was 16. She was advised to forgive and not make a big deal out of it since they would probably not believe her anyway since he was and remained a very well respected elder until his dying day many years later. She needed to be championed but the command to take care of the widows and fatherless never seemed to matter in her families case. Grievous damage has been done to her and the only comfort or shared outrage has come from those outside of this group and by some ex members who also were abused while in the church. Her abuse happened over 30 years ago but it has and does affect her life till this very day. I, having not been raised in this church can see clearly that it is not the "only true church" on earth and I know it's history very well. I can see that being born and raised in it would shut off all thinking outside of this box. Everyone outside of this group is Hell Bound and taught by hirelings so they have nothing to say of importance and can not be trusted. I see many admirable things in the friends but since I have been on the outside all of my life, I have met countless "other saints" who have been born again from above and have the fruits of a changed and holy life. I will not judge the eternal outcome in any 2x2's life nor the status of their salvation and I will not allow their judgment of me to cause me to renounce what God did in my life 30 years ago when I knelt at an altar and asked the Lord Jesus Christ to forgive me and to give me his new life and the Holy Spirit to be my companion. Nobody can tell me what happened and has happened since that night is not real or valid. I believe severe persecution is coming to the body of Christ and very soon at that. There are many scriptures that teach in the last days, the saints will be worn out, overcome and scattered before the 2nd coming of Jesus. I believe those evil times will melt this awful church-i-anity and separatist mentality away, and that the Bride of Christ will come forth in her beauty and patiently await her Bridegroom from Heaven. Even so come Lord Jesus, Amen.

Post by rn on Apr 8, 2008 21:30:35 GMT -5

THIS is for those of you who have never been involved in this type of issue within the meetings b4.....it is dangerous territory and can cause great harm if the truth is not found out.i agree totally that the perpertrators must be sent to jail,,,,,if they are proven guilty....but many times it just comes down to "he said...she said"... thanks, rn

Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2008 7:26:43 GMT -5

The fact that child abuse exists amongst workers wouldn't neccesarily reflect on the whole group -- Child abusers exist in most sectors of society -- without it neccesarily reflecting on the whole society.

Unique and ugly attribute of child abuse within 2x2 circles is the way that it is dealt with by 2x2 leadership. Most sectors of society do all they can to support and strengthen victims, and at the same time protect other potential victims from the same fate.

2x2 leadership shows complete indifference to the plight of victims, and completely disregards danger to other potential victims. The prime concern is exclusively 'the testimony of the fellowship' -- to be dealt with at the expense of every other honourable concern.

Post by jeremiah on May 5, 2008 5:46:48 GMT -5

I have a book coming out in December. This is a book for parents. I have some experience with child abuse myself; mostly as a former school principal and teacher, but to some extent growing up. The foster home where I experienced the least abuse was in a professing home and this was mostly due to lack of training and preparation on the part of welfare as I see it today in my adulthood. The friends who took my brother and I in had four children of their own, and we were on their turf. There is such a thing as sibling rivalry. My wife and I have four children - all grown up now. We have three sons - all graduated from college, and one daughter still in college. One of my sons recently graduated from Purdue University and is an airline pilot. We have six grandgirls. I see this sibling rivalry in all of my grandgirls and their sisters. The worst abuse I experienced was in nonprofessing homes. As a counselor, and psychologist in training, I find myself interested in Freud's psychoanalytic model somewhat; although, I really consider myself ecletic overall in my practice as a couselor. I am especiially interested in the ID, EGO, and SUPEREGO model, and I believe our society has become too existentialistic - where "Anything goes." For me, the truth nurtures the Superego part of the personality. This is what is missing in the world today, and I am hoping to write another book about this. When it comes to abuse; I have worked with victims. I enjoy this work most, and feel I am mostly successful with victims. I have a hard time working with perpetrators, as I find most whom I have had contact with resistant and wanting to cover up.

My first doctorate is in education and I am a university professor. I teach Educational Leadership full time to those people who have this notion that they want to be a school principal or superintendent. My second masters is in counseling, and I am a licensed counselor and do counseling on the side. I am working on a second doctorate - the Psy.D., in clinical psychology, but am moving slowing due to money issues - lack of it!

With the background that I have, anyone is free to consult with me if you choose. I will listen and do my best to help YOU work through whatever issues are of concern, to the best of my ability. Even Jesus himself was not liked by all. Some even eventually hung him on a cross. You have to understand that we are all just human beings - including me, but I will do my best in this endeavor if any want to consult with me. I give out the following email address to all of my clients. This way things are kept more private. As a counselor we are trained NOT to share private and confidential information; especially when asked to keep things private and confidential. I had a worker come to me one time and ask me to work with a nephew. I met with the nephew for a few sessions, and then the worker contacted me wanting to know what we talked about. I absolutely did not share one thing, and told him that it is my policy to keep things confidential between myself and my clients. I have worked with workers wanting relief from tension and anxiety. I have worked with divorced individuals who have left the truth. I have lost track of all who have contacted me in the past. I have always done this free of charge, and online. At times it might be hard to immediately get back with someone, because I have to put my paid profession first; however, there again, I will do my best if anyone wants to contact me.

I am currently NOT attending meetings. As a foster child I lived with some friends in the truth until I was fourteen years old. At that point I was placed in another foster home. At that time I became exposed to other religions - each pretty much conveying to me that they were right and all others wrong. I did profess for about 15 years. My wife, raised Catholic professed eventually, for about ten years. We left the truth because someone was stirring up trouble about my past, including a couple of workers who had no idea what they were talking about. They would ask me questions, and then cut me down and criticize when I told them the truth. One worker tried to get me to get rid of all of my university textbooks. We got into a heated discussion when I told her that the books were my tools; saying, "Carpenters have tools. These are my tools. I have to have them in order to teach my classes." When a woman in the meetings where we were attending made fun of my wife when she was giving her testimony we left for good. It was very difficult for her to give her testimony any way. She sure didn't need this. Now, today, I am ready to go back to the meetings. I have seen enough. I am getting older and I see things differently now. I am happy to share my own experiences and views with anyone. My email address is DrJerryGarrett@yahoo.com. Nobody will ever know that you contacted me unless YOU tell them.

Post by rn on May 5, 2008 19:51:07 GMT -5

a person can put any kind of spin on this subject (workers staying in the work after they havemolested a child that yiou want to.. bottom line is this....trust has been broken, faith has been lost, a sense of uncomfortableness has devolped with these people around..

sebd them home and let their families and the law of the land. deal with themrn

Post by CherieKropp on May 6, 2008 20:46:00 GMT -5

Jerry - Cherie Kropp here.

What part of the country are you living in now? I still love the story your lovely wife told us about teaching school in Mississippi and dealing with the accents there. She asked the question, "Who was Bach?" And was told by a student, "Bach is dat stuff dat grows on de outside of trees."

Jerry, with your background in counseling, I would like to ask you to take a look at the WINGS website. Can you give us any professional comments? Suggestions, etc. It's still a work in progress. There are 7 of us who make up the Wings Administration, and I am just one of them. It's not "my" website, like TTT is.www.wingsfortruth.info/

Post by White Knight on Jul 26, 2008 14:55:55 GMT -5

TO what Guest or anyone else: have you ever raised a family, meaning more than one or two. I have and I warned all of them about these kinds of people. The eldest girl lied right before the Judge and said I didn’t teach/ warn them. What do you have to say about that?

And does that mean anyone accused falsely is/are perpetrators or pedophiles etc.What would be your position should you or any of you be accused?Answer: You really don’t know till it happens!

Post by rational on Jul 26, 2008 15:48:18 GMT -5

TO what Guest or anyone else: have you ever raised a family, meaning more than one or two. I have and I warned all of them about these kinds of people. The eldest girl lied right before the Judge and said I didn’t teach them. What do you have to say about that?

I would first ask a question:

Did you warn them or teach them?

The government warned people about the use of drugs in films like Reefer Madness but it taught them nothing and, if anything, encouraged drug use because it was so obviously filled with inaccuracies.[/quote]

Post by Joe Lynn on Aug 30, 2008 10:22:23 GMT -5

TO what Guest or anyone else: have you ever raised a family, meaning more than one or two. I have and I warned all of them about these kinds of people. The eldest girl lied right before the Judge and said I didn’t teach them. What do you have to say about that?

And dose that mean anyone accused falsely is/are perpetrators or pedophiles etc.What would be your position should you or any of you be accused?Answer: You really don’t know till it happens!

WK,Did you gently teach them.........................or did you preach to them?? please be honest with yourself.

Post by ddowdy on Sept 19, 2008 18:12:03 GMT -5

This problem has been with this cult from its beginnings with William Irvine and it obviously continues to this day. The practice of lodging the cult's "workers" in what in the past were largely unsuspecting follower's homes in and of itself represents a huge potential for misconduct and abuse.

It appears that Irvine's initial reasoning for lodging his ministers in the homes of the cult's followers was primarily financial although he did try to justify it by trying to employ exceedingly vague relevance to New Testament scriptures. Perhaps this quite financially well off cult might consider normalizing the lives of its ministers, embracing true Christianity and attempting to become a legitimate religous institution which functions normally and exists for the benefit of all God's Children rather than for a handful of aged men who currently preside over its teeming cauldron of dysfunction.

Post by pianoman on Dec 3, 2008 2:55:24 GMT -5

I Have!!! Not only accused, but accused by my sister that was a worker.

Of course I wasn't going to meetings at the time, so I don't know how far her word went. Today she is a drug addicted, alcoholic, so I am sure that carries some weight!

I was a single father raising a little girl. She was in high school as a freshman at the time. I simply walked in her room and told her what her "auntie" had said, and I had to really restrain my daughter as she wanted to do harm to her auntie.

People, Abuse is so serious, we must be absolutely sure before we prosecute, but we need to protect our children so if there is a glimmer of doubt with a worker, or friend, Remove them and warn others, that you can trust.

My cousin was warned about her husband to be, when she wanted to marry. She ignored the advice, and married in spite of the fact that others, including me, told her of first hand stories about her "man". Today she is single, one child and a serious restraining order on the father/abuser.What sickens me is that he was never prosecuted and she knew he was abusing others. She was one of the really sheltered, "true blue" professing kids.

This is two isolated instances and anyone that generalizes on this subject my find him/her self in court being sued for libel or slander. It is not a joke and hard to know what to do exactly about certain cases. When children falsely accuse, they have no idea of the severity of their actions, so it will always remain a mystery of what to do. Maybe lie detectors? Peace to all, Pianoman

Post by MsMarie on Dec 13, 2009 12:44:03 GMT -5

How can you ever be sure without a confession? Just this week the news broke that very many teachers have had to leave the profession because they have been broken by false accusations which even upon acquittal, left a stain on their characters. On the other hand, I personally know of a nest of abusers who have ruined the lives of all of their children and some of the neighbours children also. It is fair to say that there will be a proportion of these abusers in all walks and circumstances, including the religious environment (the Catholic church revealed currently), tares among wheat. It nearly always boils down to the word of the accuser against that of the abuser, unless the abuser confesses or the accuser repents of a false accusation. Would that we in hindsight, had the wisdom of Solomon...

Shoutbox

wally: proboards can be a bit buggy...i still get virus warnings when clicking on thread links...Feb 26, 2020 22:04:28 GMT -5

ant_rotten: Does anyone else constantly have a pop up saying “do you want to download index.html” when using TMB desktop version? This happens to me both on my iPhone and iPad.. Feb 26, 2020 19:56:33 GMT -5

wally: you haven't asked me a question or anything or did i miss one?Feb 20, 2020 6:03:05 GMT -5