"If man insists on externalizing his true self in the form of "God", then why fear his true self, infearing "God", - why praise his true self in praising "God", - why remain externalized from"God" IN ORDER TO ENGAGE IN RITUAL AND RELIGIOUS CEREMONY IN HIS NAME?Man needs ritual and dogma, but no law states that an externalized god is necessary in orderto engage in ritual and ceremony performed in a god's name! Could it be that when he closesthe gap between himself and his "God" he sees the demon of pride creeping forth - that veryembodiment of Lucifer appearing in his midst? He no longer can view himself in two parts,the carnal and the spiritual, but sees them merge as one, and then to his abysmal horror,discovers that they are only the carnal - AND ALWAYS WERE! Then he either hates himself to death,day by day - or rejoices that he is what he is!If he hates himself, he searches out new and more complex spiritual paths of "enlightenment"in hopes that he may split himself up again in his quest for stronger and more externalized"gods" to scourge his poor miserable shell. If he accepts himself, but recognizes that ritual andceremony are the important devices that his invented religions have utilized to sustain hisfaith in a lie, then it is the SAME FORM OF RITUAL that will sustain his faith in the truth - theprimitive pageantry that will give his awareness of his own majestic being added substance."

and Jake responded,“WEEEEEEEEEEEELLLLL now.... of course, taking this passage from The Satanic Bible might make it seem like LaVey is four-square into "something out there," and man trying to tap into it. Yea, this is the way to ENLIGHTENMENT... but those of us who've been around the block once or twice remember that there is a paragraph beyond this that reads,

"When all religious faith in lies has waned, it is because man has become closer to himself and farther from "God"; closer to the "Devil." If this is what the devil represents, and a man lives his life in the devil's fane, with the sinews of Satan moving in his flesh, then he either escapes from the cacklings and carpings of the righteous, or stands proudly in his secret places of the earth and manipulates the folly-ridden masses through his own Satanic might, until that day when he may come forth in splendor proclaiming "I AM A SATANIST! BOW DOWN, FOR I AM THE HIGHEST EMBODIMENT OF HUMAN LIFE!"

Well it comes down to the essence of the human ego. As Jake pointed out, some may wrongly interpret Dr.LaVey's words to imply that there is something "out there" to connect to.That in my opinion, is one reason why we have all these different religions and practices: they tapped into their own minds, their own ego, and did not get it (like Dr.LaVey writes), and externalized it into a god or gods. Satanism is different in that the Satanist realizes that the energy he is raising in ritual magic, that may appear to be "out there" is really "in here", and is just a manifestation of his ego, or will. He may accept this truth ( that yes, it really is all coming from the mind and not from "out there"), or he may not be able to bear the responsibility for it and externalize his previously subconscious elements of his ego into imagined separate forces that impose and control him. Those in the latter camp will find no shortage of con men who offer their “services” to interpret the “will of god” or what have you. Within The Compleat Witch, later published as The Satanic Witch, Dr. LaVey provides a model for understanding the human ego. One of the aspects of the ego is the Demonic Self. The Demonic Self is the hidden self of each individual that contains characteristics that are normally not consciously exercised in the world. Besides being a Lesser Magic tool (explained in The Satanic Witch) to understand and manipulate others via your understanding of their frustrated subconscious aspirations, the Demonic Self can also be used to bridge the conscious and subconscious mind.

The Demonic self can be seen as a representation of the subconscious mind itself and can be a reservoir of unlimited power. The concept of the Demonic Self seems to have been a constant force in mankind’s religious and psychological development. The word Demonic originates from the Greek word daimonikos, itself derived from daimon, which is a god or spirit.

An examination of the beliefs and traditions of ancient peoples yields the persistence of the idea of a protective aspect of the ego, sometimes being contra sexual ( as is the case with Dr.LaVey's interpretation) . To the Ancient Egyptians , it was called the Ka, and to the Germanics, the Fylgia . Traditionally, it was said that only great kings and magicians were able to bond themselves to their Daemon. The great philosopher Socrates was said be in contact with his Daemon.

With the advent of Christianity, the notion of an individual protective nurturing force that accompanied each individual from birth to death, became externalized from the ego, relegated to the demonic and Satanic.

Greater Magic can be understood as a conscious exercising of the Demonic Self. In other words, the Satan you are calling up in ritual and "tapping into" is nothing more and nothing less than the previously hidden potential of your own mind.

The demonic Self is not a "spiritual" or supernatural entity but a conceptual tool to give form to an aspect of the ego whose inherit qualities are either subdued, ignored, or externally projected as some supernatural force or being by non Satanists. The Demonic self is also not something that you find or conjure up just in the ritual chamber; it is an aspect of the mind that is always present, it is what is called the Subjective Universe. Greater Magic can just serve to illustrate it, or simply put, to show you it is there. You may not need such an experience (ritual magic) to gain awareness of the demonic self, or you may need to have it revealed to you again and again in ritual. It is a natural aspect of the ego, which can be incorporated into the moment to moment conscious existence of the Satanist.

" The rites in this book call the names of devils-devils of allshapes, sizes and inclinations. The names are used with deliberateand appreciative awareness, for if one can pull aside thecurtain of fear and enter the Kingdom of Shadows, the eyeswill soon become accustomed and many strange and wonderfultruths will be seen."--- Anton LaVey, _The Satanic Rituals_

That in my opinion, is one reason why we have all these different religions and practices: they tapped into their own minds, their own ego, and did not get it (like Dr.LaVey writes), and externalized it into a god or gods. Satanism is different in that the Satanist realizes that the energy he is raising in ritual magic, that may appear to be "out there" is really "in here", and is just a manifestation of his ego, or will.

1) The reason of having different religions and practices seems to me a result as a search for the understanding of nature and our place in it. Not so much of "tapping our own ego and not getting it". My best guess for the words of peace religions describe is also of a result for attempts of distinction from the "animal nature" inside and futile attempts in trying to opress it. This means there is an understanding of the ego, but a fear of lowering oneself towards mans own true carnal nature. Besides, who said LaVey was right and is the end line?

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The Demonic self can be seen as a representation of the subconscious mind itself and can be a reservoir of unlimited power.

Unlimited power ey? Might I consider taking a small test if you are bullet-proof with that "unlimited-power". Don't get too high up there sonny-boy, you are exagerrating.

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With the advent of Christianity, the notion of an individual protective nurturing force that accompanied each individual from birth to death, became externalized from the ego, relegated to the demonic and Satanic.

You clearly never heard of spirit guides and the use of Angels within Abhramic religions which suit the same purpose as a "protective nurturing force".. Fuck, even the concept of "God" covers it.

Looks like you progressed a bit in understanding it. Now you just have to get yourself rid of the flashy terms and come back down to the world of rationality and non-wooish speech.

Greater Magic can be understood as a conscious exercising of the Demonic Self. In other words, the Satan you are calling up in ritual and "tapping into" is nothing more and nothing less than the previously hidden potential of your own mind.

How do you know?

I guess I should elaborate so it's not a one liner.

How can you speak in certain terms about things that are uncertain? If you're offering an opinion about what GM might be then I can go along with it. If you're offering a solution and an explanation (as suggested by your use of "is") then I , for one, am not on board.

Greater Magic can be understood as a conscious exercising of the Demonic Self. In other words, the Satan you are calling up in ritual and "tapping into" is nothing more and nothing less than the previously hidden potential of your own mind.

How do you know?

I guess I should elaborate so it's not a one liner.

How can you speak in certain terms about things that are uncertain? If you're offering an opinion about what GM might be then I can go along with it. If you're offering a solution and an explanation (as suggested by your use of "is") then I , for one, am not on board.

I believe LaVey was referring to how opposites attract, particularly how physical opposites attract, when he was discussing the self and the demonic self in The Compleat Witch. For instance a 3 o clock male has the demonic core of a 9 o clock woman and that is a reason why 3 o clock males tend to be attracted to 9 o clock witches.

I am not sure that LaVey intended to have his theory of the demonic self equated with a notion such as the subjective universe, as if one was somehow generated or derived from the other.

I am also not sure whether LaVey intended to have his theory of the demonic self equated with the notion of the subconscious.

Also something else has occurred to me. If the LaVey quote mentioned at the very outset of this thread is an attempt to highlight the way human beings deceive themselves by externalising parts of themselves, or dividing themselves up into spiritual as opposed to carnal, or animal etc., then isn’t the division between conscious and subconscious, or conscious and unconscious a similar sort of procedure?

Wouldn’t one aspect of Greater Magic then be ritual and ceremony to celebrate the complete undivided carnal man called a Satanist?

I believe LaVey was referring to how opposites attract, particularly how physical opposites attract, when he was discussing the self and the demonic self in The Compleat Witch. For instance a 3 o clock male has the demonic core of a 9 o clock woman and that is a reason why 3 o clock males tend to be attracted to 9 o clock witches.

He was.

I am not sure that LaVey intended to have his theory of the demonic self equated with a notion such as the subjective universe, as if one was somehow generated or derived from the other.

He didn't.

I am also not sure whether LaVey intended to have his theory of the demonic self equated with the notion of the subconscious.

He didn't.

Thank you for saving me the time to write a detailed posting on how people who have a theory that they wish to attach to some conceptual image in their head based on something that LaVey wrote to at least READ THE BOOK and UNDERSTAND IT before pulling said theories out of their ass. I mean, really... the demonic core is covered quite well in the few pages in which it's implications WITHIN THE CONTEXT of The Compleat Witch (or The Satanic Witch for those of you in the cheap seats) is presented.

Thank you for saving me the time to write a detailed posting on how people who have a theory that they wish to attach to some conceptual image in their head based on something that LaVey wrote to at least READ THE BOOK and UNDERSTAND IT before pulling said theories out of their ass. I mean, really... the demonic core is covered quite well in the few pages in which it's implications WITHIN THE CONTEXT of The Compleat Witch (or The Satanic Witch for those of you in the cheap seats) is presented.

LaVey's conception of a "demonic" contra sexual "opposite" aspect of the ego is not a new one, although his suggested use of it, is(as written in The Compleat Witch). The idea of a "demonic" or daemonic self has quite a history, that some might find useful in perusing.

Also something else has occurred to me. If the LaVey quote mentioned at the very outset of this thread is an attempt to highlight the way human beings deceive themselves by externalising parts of themselves, or dividing themselves up into spiritual as opposed to carnal, or animal etc., then isn’t the division between conscious and subconscious, or conscious and unconscious a similar sort of procedure?

Wouldn’t one aspect of Greater Magic then be ritual and ceremony to celebrate the complete undivided carnal man called a Satanist?

As to "one aspect of Greater Magic" being a celebration of the undivided self; I would say that it is. You can use words such as conscious and subconscious, which are conveniences, to refer to parts of the undivided whole (the ego). Sometimes, the "parts" may not be doing the work they are supposed to, causing a sense of disharmony within the self.

I think Greater Magic demonstrates the "parts" working as a whole, as does every other event in your life outside the ritual chamber. In GM, you get to create a personal pocket universe, that you can control and step back from, and observe.

I recognize that my ego includes both my sense of self ( the "I") and the Other (the world I perceive). One requires the other. Both are parts of the greater whole that is my ego, which emerges from my brain, within my skull.

This is the "complete undivided carnal man" as I understand it at the moment.

LaVey's conception of a "demonic" contra sexual "opposite" aspect of the ego is not a new one, although his suggested use of it, is(as written in The Compleat Witch). The idea of a "demonic" or daemonic self has quite a history, that some might find useful in perusing.

Then do not try to glom onto LaVey's name as some kind of authority for your own take on the concepts. Cite you other references for it and do not try to conflate LaVey's demonic core as in The Compleat Witch with some other source for which you have some affinity. What you are talking about has NOTHING to do with LaVey's conceptualization of magic, nor does it have anything to do with his personality profiling, as put forth in The Compleat Witch.

I wonder if Duende's take on the Daimonic Self bears some relation to Carl Jung's theory of the anima and animus, respectively the hidden/unacknowledged/repressed female in the male and male in the female. This "opposite" must be discovered and integrated into the psyche in order for what Jung calls "individuation" to take place and the mature fully human person to emerge. He referred in his research to 18th century European occult writings on Alchemy, where the "base metal" of human existence is transformed into "gold" by the Mystical Marriage of (and thereby, extinction of)those qualities falsely perceived as dualities. Only the Adept is able to achieve this, out of the very few people who would even have the desire or will to attempt it. I understand Dr LaVey's theory of attraction of the "usual" (?) self to the daemonically opposite "other" as referring purely to carnal matters. ( I sincerely hope that intellectual opposites do not attract as I have no wish to draw morons to me. ;)) However, maybe there is some Jungian influence in the Doctor's work? His (Jung's) "Man and His Symbols" was reissued in the 1970's and the anima/animus theory may well have interested him as a theory of how and why humans look for their ideal partner.

I have a feeling you might be correct, Felix. The Jungian model would have much more of a relationship to his ideas than anything LaVey ever wrote... but then, why not cite a source that actually makes sense, rather than one that might sound good on a Satanic board?

LaVey was definitely aware of Freud and Jung and I'm certain that he'd read quite a bit of both before penning The Compleat Witch, but then that would be expected. Although in LaVey's analyses of the interpersonal (carnal and intellectual) relationships that occur between men and women, a lot of it came from his personal observations of the behaviors of men and women in various situations. It was always an eye opener to be in a public place with him and have him point out the subtleties of things going on around us... I still refer to The Compleat Witch today and recommend it to my "witchy associates."

I have been guilty of this I have to honestly say. (My apologies to you Jake)

In the past I have tended to take LaVey’s work and have tried to change it to suit the personal point of view or thesis I was trying to put forward.

What should be done (I think) is that one should put their point of view or thesis forward first, and then draw on the works of others to support the point of view or thesis being put forward.

The work being draw on to support a point of view or thesis shouldn’t be altered at all. That is, as Jake has said in the past, a piece of intellectual dishonesty.

I think one can comment on someone else’s work. Hell I certainly have, but it is imperative that people actually do the heavy lifting to try understand that work correctly and then comment on it as it is.

So you are saying the Demonic Self can be equated to the subconscious mind and can bridge the conscious mind? I have never looked at it in that way or made that connection. I find this interesting and perhaps something to think on.

On another note some of the things about Greater Magic and ritual you have stated, I share the same view point such as "Greater Magic can be understood as a conscious exercising of the Demonic Self. In other words, the Satan you are calling up in ritual and 'tapping into' is nothing more and nothing less than the previously hidden potential of your own mind." This especially has been shown in the works of Michael W Ford and a practice I've been undertaking for quite sometime. As I have stated in other threads, the Archetypes you put yourself in league with relates to the aspects of the mind. For me this is but one avenue of magic. Very interesting topic you have posted.

Greater Magic works through changing your perception.Are you alluding to some mechanics beyond the psychological?

I'm saying that there does certainly appear to be an unknown quantity in the universe ('balancing factor in nature' ... or insert your own name for it) and all of your laborious typing doesn't do anything to explain anything other than your own understanding of what *you* think GM is.

The way you construct your sentences with definitive terms is annoying to me because it makes you sound like a know it all when you, in fact, are not. Describing esoteric ideas in definitive terms like A=B is best left to the white lighters IMHO.

I'm saying that there does certainly appear to be an unknown quantity in the universe ('balancing factor in nature' ... or insert your own name for it) and all of your laborious typing doesn't do anything to explain anything other than your own understanding of what *you* think GM is.

What leads you to think that there "certainly appear to be an unknown quantity in the universe"?

What leads you to think that there "certainly appear to be an unknown quantity in the universe"?

What evidence has persuaded you to entertain such a possibility?

I have done ritual magic and have gotten some rather uncanny results that would appear to go beyond simply convincing myself that it worked. I have spoken with a few other GM practitioners who have achieved much, and who view GM as something more than a simple mental bowel cleanse.

In and of itself, of course, it's possible that coincidence is a factor in my own experience, but it all leads to doubting and questioning.

Doubt, in fact, is a key factor in my world view. There is very little that is 'known' that is of any real value. History books, for example, were written by the victors, yet we have a system that pays people to dispense 'history' as fact. I've studied too much to accept the presented one sided stories as all that is necessary to know. Similar can be said for most topics of 'acceptable' study.

When I say there does appear to be an unknown quantity in the universe, I mean simply that. I'm not alluding to some 'entity' like you would undoubtedly like for me to do. Something causes life. Something causes dead tissue to live and something allows and promotes the propagation of life in every possible (however improbable) environment. Conversely, something, perhaps the same something, promotes death and decay. We don't understand the origins/mechanics of it at all nor do we understand the cycles it runs in. All we can do is attempt to observe it and attempt to affect small changes via science or via magic.

On a larger scale, we don't know our place in the universe or what the universe is comprised of or where its boundaries might lie or how it came to be. We don't really even know our place on the planet, nor do we even come close to understanding our own historical context here on earth. We have no idea, beyond theory, what's in the deepest crevasses of the oceans or in the deepest unexplored jungles (or under the ice in Antarctica). We're discovering new species of animals every day and we're rendering yesterday's truths obsolete by the minute and still there are those who feel confident to speak with authority on things as if we haven't proven in the past that what we're really good at is making shit up.

So, yeah, in a nutshell I think (though I also doubt it) that there is some mystery around the workings of greater magic. I think ASLV felt the same way about it since he said that if a practitioner were to recognize a result he/she should acknowledge it even if they don't fully understand it.

I have done ritual magic and have gotten some rather uncanny results that would appear to go beyond simply convincing myself that it worked. I have spoken with a few other GM practitioners who have achieved much, and who view GM as something more than a simple mental bowel cleanse.

Such as? It is also ill-advised and borderline stupid to ask explanations from self-referring sources. Kinda like saying the bible speaks the truth because it has been written in the book itself it speaks the truth..

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Doubt, in fact, is a key factor in my world view.

Doubt is good in the sense you'll do research and in the end can come up with answers instead of running circles.

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We don't really even know our place on the planet, nor do we even come close to understanding our own historical context here on earth. We have no idea, beyond theory, what's in the deepest crevasses of the oceans or in the deepest unexplored jungles (or under the ice in Antarctica). We're discovering new species of animals every day and we're rendering yesterday's truths obsolete by the minute and still there are those who feel confident to speak with authority on things as if we haven't proven in the past that what we're really good at is making shit up.

If a person is ready to put aside the imagined mysticism and fairy stories, then the answers will come rolling down. But yeah, it's the "ready-part" most have difficulties with. Even among skeptics and self-professed Satanists.

Big words, and small brains, evolution where art thou? (General response, you may take it personally but it is not a necessity).

It is also ill-advised and borderline stupid to ask explanations from self-referring sources. Kinda like saying the bible speaks the truth because it has been written in the book itself it speaks the truth..

I was asked for my opinion/experience, I gave it. I don't care if it's convincing to you or not.

Originally Posted By: Dimitri

Big words, and small brains, evolution where art thou? (General response, you may take it personally but it is not a necessity).

Your passive aggressive act is wearing thin. Go back and examine your post to me. What value did you offer by posting it? You attempted to give me advice, which was about something obvious, then you agreed with one sentence, then with one sentence you attempted to present yourself as someone to whom the answers "have come rolling down" to and then you insulted me.

ALL of your posts are like this. You really need to sharpen up because reading your new posts are EXACTLY like reading your old posts. Do you ever offer anything in the way of insight?

And now I am asking you for examples of your uncanny results. I am seldom impressed by stories which are a bit on the vague side.

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Your passive aggressive act is wearing thin. Go back and examine your post to me. What value did you offer by posting it?

That putting aside big words and fairy tales can open someones eyes and see the obvious answers. Quite straight-forward isn't it?

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You attempted to give me advice, which was about something obvious, then you agreed with one sentence, then with one sentence you attempted to present yourself as someone to whom the answers "have come rolling down" to and then you insulted me.

Never claimed that the answers came rolling down to me. I have chosen my words wisely enough to indicate that I am not the person with all the answers, but instead a person who gives the slight hint for taking on a different approach.

Besides didn't I write that the "big words and small brains" don't need to be taken personally?

Thanks for sharing this, Fnord. Intelligent and thoughtful responses like yours are the reason I choose to post on the600club. Actually, you are wrong, I did not want you to "allude" to some "entity." I did expect your response (whatever it would be) to my question to immediately elicit a couple of spasms from that shining example of the elite alien known as DIMWIT-tri (and perhaps soon, her comrades!)

I have also had experiences and discussions with others concerning GM, pointing in the direction that there may be something else going on. I will be addressing this subject in a different post in the near future.Outside of the Satanism, it seems to me that the exploration of such a potential "Factor X"(and magic in general), would quickly degrade to invoking the supernatural. My use of magic does not require any "Factor X" for me to enjoy it's application and reap it's benefits. I use GM primarily for the psychological benefits I reap from it, which adds a little dazzle to everything I do. I understand it as just some Jungian process in which the conscious and subconsciousness are integrated. It does not need to be anything more than a psychological tool. That being said, this psychological "play acting" has at times resulted in effects that seem to imply there is something..else. Not some god or Satan-god, but some yet unknown natural phenomena. While I am interested in the idea and exploration of "Factor X", just because I choose to do so, does not mean I need to have "faith" or foster a "belief" in it's existence. I am not implying that you have such an opinion, I mean in general.Again, my use of GM does not require the existence of "Factor X" to explain it's effectiveness to me (as a psychological tool).

Equally, I think it is an insult to the individual psyche to ignore repeated personal experiences because they do not "fit in"with the current boundaries of the known.

Based on his writings, it seems Anton LaVey was aware of such a mystery as well. I am compiling all the LaVey quotes available to me on the matter, from books and interviews (some 600clubbers may not have seen all of these before), and will be posting them soon.

I have also had experiences and discussions with others concerning GM, pointing in the direction that there may be something else going on.

Perhaps the "indication maybe something else going on" is in fact a slight hint you and other people are just taking the wrong turn. Just a slight suggestion... such as the believers of paranormal forces think "there is more to it" when their fantasy overlooked a few things so their theories didn't blend with the harsh reality. But hey, people simply don't like to be confronted with their stupidity and false beliefs. It still is fun to see all the creative writing being done just in lousy attempts to justify their beliefs.

I am still of the position you are exgagerating GM and didn't quite let loose of some unproven fairy tales.

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I use GM primarily for the psychological benefits I reap from it, which adds a little dazzle to everything I do.

Same question as Fnord: such as?

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That being said, this psychological "play acting" has at times resulted in effects that seem to imply there is something..else. Not some god or Satan-god, but some yet unknown natural phenomena.

Or as mentioned above, you are missing a few points and have the illusion of thinking there is something else while in fact it can simply be your lack of knowledge.

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Based on his writings, it seems Anton LaVey was aware of such a mystery as well. I am compiling all the LaVey quotes available to me on the matter, from books and interviews (some 600clubbers may not have seen all of these before), and will be posting them soon.

I very much doubt the older members here have missed a few LaVey quotes. It is also my honest opinion that quoting from ASL is rather pointless. What has been written by ASL should be read and viewed within its entire context and not ripped out so any dumbfuck can weave a bullshit theory around it.

Well it appears that we're probably closer in how we view GM than I initially thought. Some folks are very afraid of simply saying "I don't know." To me, there is mystery in the world because, as I've touched on illustrating, what we don't know vastly outweighs what we do know.

I don't know if there is some not-yet-understood (or perhaps forgotten) natural force that can be manipulated via ritual or not. Several Satanists I've spoken to believe so, several do not. Some say it's akin to technology and is a reliable way of imposing one's will on the objective universe. If it is, I'm not *that* good at it (yet). I have gotten some interesting results via ritual, but I'm not ready to say it wasn't coincidence or my own mind at play. I entertain the possibly that ritual can have an effect on the objective via the subjective (or I wouldn't bother with it) but I still maintain that it's not probable.

Some seem to find the very idea of exploring magic frightening in some way and so much so that they feel they have to denigrate others who are interested in it. I don't understand this personally as magic has been linked to man from the furthest reaches of antiquity to the present. This message board, in fact, is centered around an individual who dedicated 1/2 of his Satanic Bible to magic & ritual and then added another volume to supplement it. If he thought it was scoff-worthy drivel I doubt he'd have spent so much time and effort in putting it forth.

Anyway, Dimitri, I see you've responded to something I've said, but due to the wonderful attribute of the ignore feature of this board, you've earned the honor of being the first person I've ever used it on (and I've been posting on boards for a long time). I'll not waste my time attempting to engage your mind numbingly myopic posts. Take it to another channel, you're officially tuned out.

I appreciate this effort to understand the detailed mechanics of Greater Magic.

I often wonder, though, whether any tangible progress can possibly be made beyond providing broad definitions of Greater Magic and discussing how magic can alter the magician’s perspective i.e. magic’s psychological potential.

In another place there is indeed a respected magician, who does talk about magic being a technology and an electricity. This may be well worth exploring and he may be right, but can it be proved? Does anyone here know whether this line of study is worthwhile?

It all seems to boil down to the same thing: can the mind itself alone influence objects, people and states of affairs in the real world?

Dr. LaVey did regard magic as important because he did spend a lot of time talking about it in his works, but did he actually describe the specific nuts and bolts of how it was supposed to work? If not, then why not?

I have mentioned this in other places, but I am quickly becoming convinced that maybe the way it works, at a nuts and bolts level, is not all that important. Maybe what is most important is whether it in fact does works or not.

I also feel that doing and taking notes about what has worked and what has not worked is of great importance and that learning about magic is generated this way. Every attempt to define magic at a micro-level seems to limit and regulate – I am not sure magic was meant to be so determined, limited and regulated.

It all seems to boil down to the same thing: can the mind itself alone influence objects, people and states of affairs in the real world?

Excuse me if this gets too far off-topic, but I recall a thread on LttD where someone brought up the "trend" of positive psychology, and how it was getting popular again (I have some books on the subjects which was written back in the 20-30`s) with the movie called "the Secret". YES, most Satanist will be very cynical about this, including myself, because it seems covered deluding illusions, and a huge goodguy badge. For instance, it only talks about positive "energy", but what about the more negative (read: destruction rituals)?

Magister Nemo said that this line of thinking though was "knee-deep in magic". I guess the message of that particular book can work for some people, because it certainly can change your perpection of things, and most likely a positive attitude in general may have a good impact on your health, and makes you become more proactive instead of only reactive. But as LaVey pointed out, the only ritual chamber you really need is in your head. All the candles and symbols are there to achieve a desired effect, but I wonder if anyone has any experience with this kinda "magical thinking"?

Rant over.

_________________________
It is not my name or my number, its how I use it and what I do.

If the mind (I.E. thought) alone could influence people, events etc. there would be a lot of people who would have had their heads explode because I have thought very hard about how cool it would be if the head of person x were to suddenly explode.

So far, that has not worked. As soon as it does work, I will figure out how it worked and get back to you. I wouldn't hold my breath though.

Actually a general response, but there are a few lines which run close to a subject I'm actually trying to show for some time now (it made me quite unpopular with some people).

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Dr. LaVey did regard magic as important because he did spend a lot of time talking about it in his works, but did he actually describe the specific nuts and bolts of how it was supposed to work? If not, then why not?

Whether LaVey regarded magic important or not is a triviality (my best guess that it was of importance for him by means of his public face, i.e a con-man). From what I know, the specific nuts and bolts of "magic" are so plain obvious they simply do not need to be explained. The definitions of LM and GM are very easy to gasp and those mere definitions already are a dead give away on how it works. It is only by abuse of the terms and sheer ignorance by the "supposed" magician their workings SEEM mysterious and unexplained. It is my complaint towards Fnord and Duende (and perhaps others who think to see wisdom in their mindless pseudo-intellectual banter). These persons simply exagerate their emotions. They claim to perform GM and get "uncanny" results, yet when asked of an example of such "uncanny results" they simply shut their ears start yelling and want to live on in their fantasies knowing well enough I have the ability to burst their fucking bubble and show them clear and unbound reality. Which brings me to general ranting.

What is the use of calling yourself a Satanist if you can't let go off mystical and plain bullshit constructs without any consideration. I see many talk about GM and the results they had from the use of it. Most of the time they say it just as that, "results". Bursting the bubble, what is being ment by "result"? Managed to magically let a wart appear on someones face after a ritual? Managed to let someone have a car accident after some dark mass? Winning the lottery after sprinkling your ticket with a mixture of goatsblood and virginpiss? You'll have to be more specific, my dears, to get a skeptic like me convinced. I simply do not fall for assumed bullshit.

And even if you have the ability to describe your assumed result then there is always a chance I'd come up with the same arguments George Carlin used on the effectiveness of prayer (50/50 percent of both failure and win situation). No mystical workings, just sheer luck.

Let me share some real occult knowledge on the inner mechanism of GM: simply a change of mind, by means of letting fantasy and cravings collide towards the world outside your brain. It is that simple craving or thing you wish for you want to happen but simply know the chances are almost zero. There is no mystical mechanism or mysticism at all, it is just plain old self-delusion. Nothing more, nothing less. Not getting this is only an indication you prefer to live in a fantasy world. Whatever floats your boat, but there will always be people like me around who can make you feel bad and challenge you. If a person wants to avoid it, simply don't start mentioning or explain your bullshit theories. Because that's nothing more then what the whole response of Duende and Fnord was about, a commonly shared lack of knowledge and general bullshit theory (and to some extent circular reasoning) to cover up that gap.

I appreciate this effort to understand the detailed mechanics of Greater Magic.

I'm not sure I am interested in a nuts and bolts explanation. Since magic has been an integral part of culture since before recorded history, it is something that is interesting to me, particularly since it's gone from prominence to something to scoff at. It's interesting that the abrahamic3 tried their best to supress magic via mass murder and mayhem and then have had the gall to refer to magic as evil.

I like LaVey's take on it: "Magic is never totally scientifically explainable, but science has always been, at one time or another, considered magic."

Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1

I often wonder, though, whether any tangible progress can possibly be made beyond providing broad definitions of Greater Magic and discussing how magic can alter the magician’s perspective i.e. magic’s psychological potential.

I'll quote LaVey again with regard to defining magic:"It will be said by some that these instructions and procedures are nothing more than applied psychology, or scientific fact, called by 'magical' terminology - until they arrive at a passage in the text that is "based on no known scientific finding". It is for this reason that no attempt has been made to limit the explanations set forth to a set nomenclature."

In other words, it's up to the individual to determine what's important and how to go about getting there. Magic is broadly defined for a reason as every one who practices it has a different will and has different goals to accomplish.

Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1

Maybe what is most important is whether it in fact does works or not.

Precisely the initial motivation, for me, to begin experimenting with magic. I've always studied magic in one way or another, experimenting with it draws on a whole different part of the psyche.

You're definitely correct in using care in applying limiting terms to magic. It's an art, not a science (though science may bear out the results).

I am still of the position you are exgagerating GM and didn't quite let loose of some unproven fairy tales.

Which specific "unproven fairy tales" ? To entertain creative ideas about the potentially unknown capacity of the human mind does not imply the embracing of "fairy tales", but merely an acceptance of the fact that the maximum potential of consciousness is unknown. Sometimes the unknown can make you feel uncomfortable, and it is easier (emotionally and intellectually) to avoid confronting the matter.

Originally Posted By: Dimitri

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I use GM primarily for the psychological benefits I reap from it, which adds a little dazzle to everything I do.

Same question as Fnord: such as?

GM has provided me with benefits appropriate to my specific needs. The particulars may not be meaningful to you, or may be misinterpreted because they are not relevant to your unique experience.

Originally Posted By: Dimitri

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Based on his writings, it seems Anton LaVey was aware of such a mystery as well. I am compiling all the LaVey quotes available to me on the matter, from books and interviews (some 600clubbers may not have seen all of these before), and will be posting them soon.

I very much doubt the older members here have missed a few LaVey quotes.

I'm not compiling these quotes for the specific benefit of the "older members."

Originally Posted By: Dimitri

It is also my honest opinion that quoting from ASL is rather pointless. What has been written by ASL should be read and viewed within its entire context and not ripped out so any dumbfuck can weave a bullshit theory around it.

I trust many of the 600club readership will be able to decide for themselves if specific quotes from Anton LaVey are of value outside their "entire context."

I don't understand this personally as magic has been linked to man from the furthest reaches of antiquity to the present. This message board, in fact, is centered around an individual who dedicated 1/2 of his Satanic Bible to magic & ritual and then added another volume to supplement it. If he thought it was scoff-worthy drivel I doubt he'd have spent so much time and effort in putting it forth.

It may be convenient to the egos of some to ignore those facts. To practice GM it is necessary to do things, to focus the mind, etc. GM requires work. I always chuckle when encountering a "Satanist" who rejects the "magic" portion of Satanism without giving it a try.

I appreciate this effort to understand the detailed mechanics of Greater Magic.

I often wonder, though, whether any tangible progress can possibly be made beyond providing broad definitions of Greater Magic and discussing how magic can alter the magician’s perspective i.e. magic’s psychological potential.

In another place there is indeed a respected magician, who does talk about magic being a technology and an electricity. This may be well worth exploring and he may be right, but can it be proved? Does anyone here know whether this line of study is worthwhile?

It all seems to boil down to the same thing: can the mind itself alone influence objects, people and states of affairs in the real world?

I am interested in how the mind can affect itself to create more opportunities for itself, that's what it boils down to for me.

GM seems to provides you with a personal laboratory to explore and interact with your own consciousness without the demands and imposed definition of the external world.

Originally Posted By: MatthewJ1

I have mentioned this in other places, but I am quickly becoming convinced that maybe the way it works, at a nuts and bolts level, is not all that important. Maybe what is most important is whether it in fact does works or not.

I also feel that doing and taking notes about what has worked and what has not worked is of great importance and that learning about magic is generated this way. Every attempt to define magic at a micro-level seems to limit and regulate – I am not sure magic was meant to be so determined, limited and regulated.

I agree with keeping some form of notes or magical diary to assist in your GM explorations. Through reading your notes on previous GM "experiments", you may find useful patterns which may previously have not been consciously available to you.I am of the opinion that GM = how the mind works. Christianity and other religions of death provide "determined, limited and regulated" magic to more than a few.

It all seems to boil down to the same thing: can the mind itself alone influence objects, people and states of affairs in the real world?

Excuse me if this gets too far off-topic, but I recall a thread on LttD where someone brought up the "trend" of positive psychology, and how it was getting popular again (I have some books on the subjects which was written back in the 20-30`s) with the movie called "the Secret". YES, most Satanist will be very cynical about this, including myself, because it seems covered deluding illusions, and a huge goodguy badge. For instance, it only talks about positive "energy", but what about the more negative (read: destruction rituals)?

Magister Nemo said that this line of thinking though was "knee-deep in magic". I guess the message of that particular book can work for some people, because it certainly can change your perpection of things, and most likely a positive attitude in general may have a good impact on your health, and makes you become more proactive instead of only reactive. But as LaVey pointed out, the only ritual chamber you really need is in your head. All the candles and symbols are there to achieve a desired effect, but I wonder if anyone has any experience with this kinda "magical thinking"?

Rant over.

I saw "the Secret" years ago. It basically states that having a defined vision of your desires will help you in manifesting them.If I recall correctly, it did not place any emphasis on taking any logical course of action in the real world to manifest those visions, but instead relied on a complete disregard of the Balance Factor. It is easy to locate those who have not found success with "the Secret". I am never surprised whenever I browse through the shelves at the local Barnes and Noble, and find yet another book on how to "make" "the Secret" work if it doesn't work for you I agree that the real ritual chamber is in your skull, but I think it is helpful to use a physical ritual chamber to get used to what GM "feels" like, at least initially.

GM has provided me with benefits appropriate to my specific needs. The particulars may not be meaningful to you, or may be misinterpreted because they are not relevant to your unique experience.

Smells to me like a cover up. Misinterpretation of what? There can hardly be something interpretated faulty if there isn't anything to start with. You see, that's what I blame you. You start talking and ranting about results of GM and even make up whole theories, yet when asked for some examples to make things clear, it is total shut down and covering behind "it is not relevant towards..". It IS relevant! I think I have adressed it in my previous response here.

Originally Posted By: dimitri

Most of the time they say it just as that, "results". Bursting the bubble, what is being ment by "result"? Managed to magically let a wart appear on someones face after a ritual? Managed to let someone have a car accident after some dark mass? Winning the lottery after sprinkling your ticket with a mixture of goatsblood and virginpiss? You'll have to be more specific, my dears, to get a skeptic like me convinced. I simply do not fall for assumed bullshit.

I have said it many times before, if there is nothing to proove then don't start talking about.

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I trust many of the 600club readership will be able to decide for themselves if specific quotes from Anton LaVey are of value outside their "entire context."

Good ol' cut and paste work.I quite dislike people who quote others to sound interesting. ASL wrote down his thoughts in one coherent (or more) volumes tackling diverse subjects. Every single word and sentence has its meaning within the book and it has been written within the context of that book to understand his thoughts. Starting to quote entire paragraphs, to me, is discrediting the author(s) since you are damaging its persona by giving the chance of letting people make false assumptions. It can be considered down right insulting.

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To entertain creative ideas about the potentially unknown capacity of the human mind does not imply the embracing of "fairy tales", but merely an acceptance of the fact that the maximum potential of consciousness is unknown.

Up here you are basically admitting you want to believe in the assumption of "higher powers" deep down inside you. "Maximum potential of consciousness is unknown".. should I be blown away?

GM has provided me with benefits appropriate to my specific needs. The particulars may not be meaningful to you, or may be misinterpreted because they are not relevant to your unique experience.

Smells to me like a cover up. Misinterpretation of what? There can hardly be something interpretated faulty if there isn't anything to start with. You see, that's what I blame you. You start talking and ranting about results of GM and even make up whole theories, yet when asked for some examples to make things clear, it is total shut down and covering behind "it is not relevant towards..". It IS relevant! I think I have adressed it in my previous response here.

If I were making an extraordinary claim then yes, but I am not and never did. I am not claiming any supernatural results from Greater Magic as you continue to imply. You do not find Greater Magic of interest or use but that is fine. Attempting to explain th experience of Greater Magic to someone who has not tried it is like explaining the experience of sex to a virgin. You have to go to out and actually try it yourself

Originally Posted By: dimitri

Most of the time they say it just as that, "results". Bursting the bubble, what is being ment by "result"? Managed to magically let a wart appear on someones face after a ritual? Managed to let someone have a car accident after some dark mass? Winning the lottery after sprinkling your ticket with a mixture of goatsblood and virginpiss? You'll have to be more specific, my dears, to get a skeptic like me convinced. I simply do not fall for assumed bullshit.

As far as I am aware, no one on this thread is claiming any of the "results" you are describing. To have an interest in Greater Magic does not presume any belief in a "Harry Potter" type of reality.

Originally Posted By: dimitri

I quite dislike people who quote others to sound interesting. ASL wrote down his thoughts in one coherent (or more) volumes tackling diverse subjects. Every single word and sentence has its meaning within the book and it has been written within the context of that book to understand his thoughts. Starting to quote entire paragraphs, to me, is discrediting the author(s) since you are damaging its persona by giving the chance of letting people make false assumptions. It can be considered down right insulting.

You are entitled to your opinions. I'm not seeking anyones approval. I don't care if you or anyone else is "insulted."

Originally Posted By: dimitri

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To entertain creative ideas about the potentially unknown capacity of the human mind does not imply the embracing of "fairy tales", but merely an acceptance of the fact that the maximum potential of consciousness is unknown.

Up here you are basically admitting you want to believe in the assumption of "higher powers" deep down inside you. "Maximum potential of consciousness is unknown".. should I be blown away?

I never implied any "higher powers", that is your term. You are misinterpreting and distorting the meaning of what I wrote to have it "fit in" with your incorrect assumption that those who practice Greater Magic hold a "Harry Potter" like view of reality.

The maximum potential of the mind is unknown. I am not surprised if you are "blown away" in confronting that. Many Satanists are attracted to the mysterious and unknown within and beyond themselves. Not a supernatural unknown( as you continue erroneously to imply), but a desire to understand the nature of the human animal and the universe in all it's facets.

And I do believe that your ending sentence truly captures the whole and essence of Greater Magic, "but a desire to understand the nature of the human animal and the universe in all it's facets." Simple and to the point. No supernatural assumptions, only desire and focused intent.

If I were making an extraordinary claim then yes, but I am not and never did.

I didn't ask for an extraordinary claim; just an example. If you said you used GM and got "uncanny" results then I simply ask an example of these uncanny results. I am well aware Fnord came up with the "uncanny results"-part btw. But the same question is adressed to you, even though it is without the "uncanny results" part. What has led you to come to the conclusion of "discovering of full potential of the mind"? When I hear and read such things it feels like a little child telling me it is the smartest being in the world before bumping against a closed door.

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You do not find Greater Magic of interest or use but that is fine. Attempting to explain th experience of Greater Magic to someone who has not tried it is like explaining the experience of sex to a virgin. You have to go to out and actually try it yourself

Assumption on your side, I merely think you are exagerating and are getting caught up into your fantasies.

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I never implied any "higher powers", that is your term. You are misinterpreting and distorting the meaning of what I wrote to have it "fit in" with your incorrect assumption that those who practice Greater Magic hold a "Harry Potter" like view of reality.

Who said I was thinking about higher powers in a fantasy-like way? I was more thinking along the lines of assumed "higher powers" (as you came to describe as: "maximum unknown potential of the mind") to just make you feel special, which you clearly aren't. Just another way to give the false idea of being special and more intelligent then the common person you cross. Your whole theory and rant has a few problems: it is based on assumptions and you haven't got a leg (yet?) to stand on for the claim that the potential of the human mind is unknown.

I have encountered other people who claimed the same thing, and I noticed they believed that assumption because of a lack of proper schooling and also wanted to feel more special. If you want to have your full potential, start opening some real hard-science books and get involved in some real investigation instead of the common exploration most do (i.e reading wiki pages and the first few bloggers who claim to know a bit about it).

The assumptive quality of the responses is astounding. Reading this was as if two different languages were being spoken. Still, a couple seem to be climbing that tower of Babel.

Another element of Greek Daemonolatry, is that once a Daemon has descended into the Underworld it rises a Daimon. The Greeks were essentially speaking of invocation/evocation of Gnosis. A way to manifest the Daemonic self. Daemones are intercessors for hidden knowledge buried deep in the psyche. Muses were also an important element of how we gain knowledge that appears to just fall out of the sky. A self-knowledge that is more intuitive vs. mimicry. Thought to be a gift from the gods. Greco-Romans were also Atheists. Many regarded the gods as allegories and colorful metaphors to carry knowledge from one person to the next.

It's among the reasons that Occultists that experiment and dabble end up settling into some form of Transcendentalism. The Opie was discussing one thing and the readers were interpreting another.

I fail to see how the quotes were being taken completely out of context.