I haven't yet become comfortable with the concept of owning multiple carry guns, each smaller than the previous, ostensibly for different social occasions. An example would be a full size .45 / 9mm compact / Snubby / Seecamp / NAA.

When asked, people who do this sort of thing often say something like, "Well, I wear my .45 most of the time, but when I can't wear a cover garment I stick the 9mm or the snubby in my pocket. And when that isn't appropriate, I carry the Seecamp or the NAA in a wallet holster". When I hear that, I imagine an armed man from the 1400's, well schooled in the arts of Johannes Liechtenauer, explaining that, "Well, I carry my longsword most of the time. When I'm not, I carry my dagger. And if it's not socially appropriate to carry my dagger, then I carry a sharp rock". That doesn't make much sense to me, either.

We've all heard that amusing quip, "The first rule of gunfighting is to have a gun", but just any gun won't do. Defensive sidearms are notoriously marginal fightstoppers. Basically, if it won't reliably kill a deer, don't use it on a man. You might get him mad. Small sized guns are for experts. Very few men can use a snubby well. Small caliber guns are for people whose affairs are in order. I understand that men have been killed by .22's, but the purpose of a defensive handgun is not to kill one's attacker. It is toreliably stop his behavior. Reliable stoppers begin with the 125 grain .357 mag, skip the entire 9mm family (or so I believe), and begin again with the .40's.

Please don't cry, "It's not the round, it's where you put it!". That's something only a democrat would say. Larger calibers develop larger wound channels. It's 0'dark:30 and there are multiple aggessors. You are in fear of your life. You know that after the first shot everyone will be in movement. Lots of rounds will be fired. And you're going to resolve the situation with your .380? If it were possible to strike, on demand, small (the places you are likely to stop a man with a low powered bullet are quite small) moving targets in the dark, then it seems to me that police departments would issue .22 shorts and save all that money.

So I'm still uncertain about carrying anything but a full caliber (starts at .40 and goes up) sidearm. If the social occasion does not permit an adult pistol, perhaps neither your nor I belong there.

I know I'm probably missing important points in this discussion and would deeply appreciate a little direction. The matter is too important to leave unsettled.

December 14th, 2007, 04:40 PM

SammyIamToday

*starts making popcorn*

December 14th, 2007, 04:42 PM

DMan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary Crumrine

Defensive sidearms are notoriously marginal fightstoppers. Basically, if it won't reliably kill a deer, don't use it on a man. You might get him mad.

That is you only consider physical stopping power. A Gun has amazing psychological stopping power. Not that I count just that, but I can put a .380 round into the head and into COM by just point shooting. Like any gun, you shouldn't carry it unless it is a part of you. Hold it, and it becomes an extension of you. When I point with my gun, I can point it with it more accurately than I can point with my finger!

Yes, I agree big holes drain faster, but I would rather hit COM with a .380 than miss with a .45. No matter which gun you use, PRACTICE!

December 14th, 2007, 04:43 PM

pogo2

Don't skip the 9mm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary Crumrine

Reliable stoppers begin with the 125 grain .357 mag, skip the entire 9mm family (or so I believe), and begin again with the .40's.

Before you skip the entire 9mm family, take a look at these ballistic tests in gelatin published by Winchester for their line of Ranger defensive ammunition.

The standard pressure 147 grain 9mm product, RA9T, penetrated the gelatin 13.9 inches and expanded to a diameter of 0.65 inches. There was very little difference between this and the .40 or .45 Ranger products in penetration or expanded diameter.

December 14th, 2007, 04:47 PM

snowdoctor

Well everyone has a belief system...and yours is difficult to deny...but your scenario of dark conditions with mult. aggressors is a situation I try not to get into either. many, many LEO carry .38 sp. or 9mm...and have proven to be effective rounds...and if we are talking about BUG's...this usually means your primary firearm has failed and you use this BUG as a last resort defensive tool...many are smaller and lighter than the primary...(some are not...as in the case of someone carrying mult. j-frames revo's.)...but it is better than throwing a shoe...
IF you feel the need to carry mult. large caliver firearms, by all means go right ahead...I recommend two full size steel 5'' 1911's with spare mags...
I do not feel that need, and feel extremely safe and proficient with the firearms I carry...

December 14th, 2007, 04:47 PM

JD

Well the thing is, there are some places you HAVE to go where a full size or mid size gun won't work, think of the people who work in places that are "Gun Free:puke:" and have to carry via deep concealment where even the smallest .40 or 9mm can't go. etc. etc.

On ocasion, I carry my .380(s), and while the first shot is important, I don't plan on just shooting once, I'm putting 3 or more shots on target as accurately fast as I can no matter what I carry, unless the situation dictates that I should do otherwise.

This is all part of risk management. I carry my larger guns as much as I can, but every now and then I have to go small.

December 14th, 2007, 04:48 PM

friesepferd

Quote:

Originally Posted by SammyIamToday

*starts making popcorn*

:haha::rofl::rofl:
exactly what i was thinking

i am currently a believer of shoot one gun, and shoot it well.
but thats probably only b/c i dont have the money for another.
not to mention, its a 9. if you dont think its any good, go stand down range. and one final note- im almost considering trading mine in for the 45 version of mine.

i'm a hypocrite, i know

December 14th, 2007, 04:50 PM

JD

Quote:

Originally Posted by SammyIamToday

*starts making popcorn*

Quote:

Originally Posted by friesepferd

:haha::rofl::rofl:
exactly what i was thinking

i am currently a believer of shoot one gun, and shoot it well.
but thats probably only b/c i dont have the money for another.
not to mention, its a 9. if you dont think its any good, go stand down range. and one final note- im almost considering trading mine in for the 45 version of mine.

i'm a hypocrite, i know

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

Don't forget the soda:pepsi:

December 14th, 2007, 06:58 PM

mr surveyor

will there be any additional charge for admission?

December 14th, 2007, 07:08 PM

Thumper

Okay... I'll go for the drinks! :pepsi:

December 14th, 2007, 08:56 PM

mslaughtertx

I carry a 9mm on a daily basis and I carry it both on and off the job. I will say that I own a .40 and a .45 and I am not as comfortable with them. I have seen all the ballistic reports and I think that it is never smart to overlook the 9mm family. It has the power to neutralize a threat successfully, especially with the right person behind it.

December 14th, 2007, 09:08 PM

Chooie

:bier:

December 15th, 2007, 12:56 AM

RETSUPT99

:w00t::eek1::why:This is going to be a long thread!:blabla:I'm doing the popcorn thing, too!:ohmann:

December 15th, 2007, 02:07 AM

BikerRN

I don't quite agree with the OP.

I do agree that the .357 Magnum is a great round in 125 Grain JHP's, but 9mm is good if the proper attention is paid to bullet selection. While the 125 Grain .357 Magnum is the "King Of The Hill" in regards to one shot stops, the other defensive calibers are within a few percentage points the King.

While the goal is to stop the action that is threatening one, one also has to put the rounds where they will work. "Accuracy is final." Many people cannot handle "full house" .357 Magnums, and I don't like shooting them out of a J-Frame myself. I'd much rather have a 38 Special that I can shoot well as oppossed to something I hate to shoot.

For what it's worth my Duty Pistol is a 9mm but my Off Duty calibers are .357 magnum and 45 ACP and only sometimes do I carry a 9mm on my own time. My BUGS are 38 Special and 9mm. I have confidence that any of these guns will get the job done if I need to use them.