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Drinking and MA

And this is the 4th time i have tried to write this post, so here goes again

over my years of training drinking and the martial arts have almost gone hand in hand, we finish sessions with a few drinks and talking at the bar, With some Japanese teachers it was widely known that have a drink with the sensei after class was where you could get some really good stuff and my little old Chinese Taiji teacher used to turn up every so often smelling a little of bai jiou (strong chinese drink that taste like paint thinner)

I also know that many older martial artitst , who after a life or training hard, drink heavily the reason for this could be

helping with aches and pains

drunkenness puts your brain in is a similar meditative stae as hard training

it is a culture thing

conditioning to them doesn;t matter so much as they didn't use their art in a practical way

I also know of a few guys who would have/ could have been great but alcohol maybe kept them back from achieving full potential. however, in balance to this I think martial artists especially ones looking at practical aspects have to keep in the real world. training hard constantly,and treating out body like a temple is all well and good but maybe too much the other way.

Since I've started being serious about self-defense, I've reduced my drinking. Not that I ever drank much, but now I go with two beers or three only at parties, early on, so I'm pretty much sober by the time I need to get home (or other people starts becoming stupid-drunk...).

Drinking will be bad if you need to use your self-defense techniques. It reduces our control, it will slow us down, make us clumsy (as if we needed it with the "chemical cocktail" in our veins already). It will increase our confidence, which can be good or can be bad, but will not outbalance the downsides.

During training, I'd think it's even worse. Because you only slightly increase the risk on injuring yourself, but you greatly increase the risk of injuring others.

Now obviously, I'm talking about quite heavy drinking. Nothing wrong with a beer after training. (Probably wrong right before, though...)

I love the Motobu quote...it's not really about drinking to me, it's about how you look at yourself, and your general demeanor as regards Karate. To me, something that is very obnoxious is the "My Life Is Karate and I Know Nothing Else I am A Warrior and I Must Not Smile" mentality, it's good to be a well rounded human being that has fun, as well as doing martial arts. Personally that's how I take this advice.

It is necessary to drink alcohol and pursue other fun human activities. The art (i.e. karate) of someone who is too serious has no "flavour."

And then there is Chotoku Kyan’s belief that, “To be a true martial artist training in karate is not enough. One must also associate with prostitutes and get involved in drinking competitions.”

A clear case if ever there was one that the past masters should not be deified or blindly followed! It does show that a “drinking culture” existed around some of the dojos of the past. However, I would suggest that this is not something to be emulated. Nothing wrong with the occasional pint with friends, but there can be no doubt that drinking has a negative effect on both health and awareness (two things the martial arts typically claim to promote).

The reason why Motobu and Kyan are advocating these kinds of spare time activities is obviously that they knew no other. For a full time martial artist or a full time artist in general it is important to take a break every once in a while. Otherwise you would burn out. To foster creativity and seek inspiration artists in the past used all kind of drugs on the other hand nowadays you can find inspiration in any other kind of endeavors.

Me as a hobby martial artist I take refuge in the martial arts to get my head free of my everyday work stuff. Others go party or enjoying any other kind of activity. But what does a full time martial artist when he finished his work day?

I always got the feeling that Kyan was being more than a little sarcastic when he made that statement. Perhaps he was fed up with people being overly philosophical and serious about their martial arts and parodied such moralising proclamations.

After all, native Okinawan martial traditions were very much divorced from religion and philosophy, unlike their mainland counterparts so these spiritual and self improving attitudes might have seemed out of place to him.

On the other hand Okinawa does have the highest rate of alcoholism anywhere in Japan and I have heard some pretty wild stories about a particular Okinawan 10th dan teacher's drinking habits from his direct students... (interestingly enough this karateka had a direct lineage back to Kyan himself)

Even in very genreal terms there is certianly much less shame attached to getting drunk in Japanese culture than in more puritanically influenced European and American (and indeed Middle Eastern) ones.

Overall it could be taken either way but I do not think Kyan was too stupid to realise that his statement would be highly inflamatory and controversial even if he did mean it.

I always got the feeling that Kyan was being more than a little sarcastic when he made that statement. Perhaps he was fed up with people being overly philosophical and serious about their martial arts and parodied such moralising proclamations.

It certainly sounds like sarcasm, but Kyan was known to personally frequent brothels and was also said to be a heavy drinker so it is unlikely to be entirely sarcasm or parody in my view. There is also a tale of him deliberately misleading his wife by telling her that the livestock she raised had fetched less than it did at market. Allegedly he would pocket the difference to fund his drinking and prostitutes. So perhaps not the most moral of men. With that in mind, I could also see how he could have objected to the moralising that would become associated with karate, but the statement he made would certainly seem to reflect his personal lifestyle and hence may well have been made in earnest.

Gavin J Poffley wrote:

After all, native Okinawan martial traditions were very much divorced from religion and philosophy, unlike their mainland counterparts so these spiritual and self improving attitudes might have seemed out of place to him.

I can certainly see that.

Gavin J Poffley wrote:

Overall it could be taken either way but I do not think Kyan was too stupid to realise that his statement would be highly inflammatory and controversial even if he did mean it.

He is said to have made this remark to his own students as opposed to an open statement so maybe he was not looking to inflame the wider karate community? Inline with what you said above, it certainly does have a feeling of rebellion against the “character development approach” of some other teachers though and hence it could have been made with that intent? To expresses his distain for such views to his students? To justify his own failings to those students? Who knows. Certainly one of the most interesting remarks by a past master for us all to ponder over :-)

in the okinawan newspaper Ryukyu Shinpo was a series of 8 articles published in 1915, praising the live of Itosu. In these articles both Itosu and his close friend Asato were described as people who often frequented the red light districts. They also enjoyed drinking.

So I think Kyan meant what he said. No sarcasm or whatever.

In my eyes it was part of the culture back than. Nothing else and nothing that is directly applicable in todays society. As I said, today we all enjoy other forms of distraction. Ok some don't :o). But the majority of people is trying to enjoy their lives, playing with the kids, reading books, go to the cinema, watch tv or whatever else.

Sometimes after training, my Sempais would invite us the students for a small pint and eel soup after practice to relax and getting to know others.... But,, when we do this we enjoy our selves talking about Karate stuff while being responsible with our actions by not drinking 50 pints or anything else.