And the prevailing argument has also become "do you know more than Holland?" Of course none of us know more about running a franchise than Holland. But it's about being a fan of the team. Analyzing and overanalyzing every move and throwing our two cents in. That's why this forum exists.

the funny part for me about this whole angle is we have no idea how Holland even feels on the issue. its been stated that Asham apparently wanted to stay in PA. so Holland could have thought Asham was the X factor, but it didn't matter because Asham didn't want to play here. there seems to be an automatic assumption that every player in the nhl wants to sign here first and if he doesn't, its because the wings passed on the player; not the other way around.

I don't think anyone here expects Modano to be "great". He's likely going to be able to put up 40-50 points, and maintain a solid all-around game. Modano give us, arguably, the deepest pool of forwards in the league.

The most popular choice among the Red Wings as to who would volunteer to play goalie – several Panthers did in their game – was Brendan Smith.

"He's pretty competitive and he seems to be good at everything," Justin Abdelkader said. "He'd volunteer himself."

Babcock was a bit more hesitant about Smith. "Yeah, yeah, just work on getting out of your zone," Babcock said

I don't think anyone here expects Modano to be "great". He's likely going to be able to put up 40-50 points, and maintain a solid all-around game. Modano give us, arguably, the deepest pool of forwards in the league.

I think it's reasonable that Modano WILL play better in detroit than the past two seasons with the stars for obvious reasons but if he doesn't I think putting helm as the third center and brought asham instead of Modano, as a 4th liner (hudler back of course), would also bring correct depth but with more sandpaper and the third line would have had two defensive minded players in helm and cleary, now it's only cleary...

Detroit won in 08 because of Defense and the bottom 6 players were mostly sandpaper guys doing their thing.

Defense or Offense... we'll se how it pans out, could be great.. but no guarantee

I'm not acting like I'm being repressed. There's actually been some good conversations going on in here, like between GMR and mindfly.

Speaking only for myself, sure it would've been nice to pick up Asham for 700k. But I'm not saying he's getting the Wings to the Cup or it's an either or situation with Modano. It's all the people jumping into the thread who've made it that. There's a pretty large gap between saying you'd want a player on the team and that player would make the difference in winning the Cup.

But that's a common argument for shooting it down. "xxxx player is not going to be the difference to get the Wings to the Cup."

And the prevailing argument has also become "do you know more than Holland?" Of course none of us know more about running a franchise than Holland. But it's about being a fan of the team. Analyzing and overanalyzing every move and throwing our two cents in. That's why this forum exists.

The Draper thing was really an aside which has derailed this thread even more. As I said, I'm a big Draper fan, but Holland was overly optimistic about his contributions to the team when he signed that contract. Or maybe he didn't have enough faith in kids like Helm to replace him.

Really? Prevailing argument? Heaten used that argument once, and you've been harping on it ever since. Mostly, it's been a discussion on the relative merits of Modano and Asham, scoring and grit/fighting. You now seem intent on proving that Holland can make mistakes, as if that proves that this particular move (or non-move in this case) is a mistake.

Now unfortunately, this seems to be devolving into just another enforcer debate. Oh well.

First off, no every player isn't important to a Cup victory. It's great if they are, but typically there's a couple guys at least who weren't difference makers.

Never said Draper was 'the difference maker', he was part of the foundation to give the team that extra element that it takes to win.

And there it is. One quote from Babcock, so how could we ever question the Wings??

I can pull up past quotes from Bowman too. But they have nothing on your hockey knowledge.

You keep talking about how that extra money couldn't have gotten the Wings anyone else. The Wings are tight against the cap. Maybe you don't understand how the cap works, but it's not like any money saved from Drapes contract would have to be used one to one for another player. It's about the total cap space, and I bet Holland would love to have every dollar he could get to work with.

Who else do Wings need? This is a stacked team on paper. I can't wait to see how well they gel. Who would Holland use that extra $500k packaged up with (Modano?, Helm?, Eaves?, Abdelkader?, Salei?) or whoever it is you wanted to use that extra money for?

- 1st line is top 3 in the league - CHECK- 2nd line is a force with Bert-Flip-Franzen - CHECK- 3rd line is arguably best in the league - CHECK- 4th line is fast, tenacious, defensive and offensive w/ grit and sandpaper - CHECK

- 1st D-pairing w/ 4 time cup winner and captain (aka Norris Nick) & one of the best offensive d-men in the Olympics - CHECK- 2nd D-pairing w/ Stuart & Kronwall for that one/two punch in physical shut down and puck moving offense who lays players out - CHECK- 3rd D-pairing w/ Salei & Ericsson/Kindl Physical and can score pairing and young kids drafted by the best scout in the entire NHL get their chance to shine and develop - CHECK

As you can see, this team is stacked. This is a cup contending team. Only place to upgrade is the 3rd D-pairing by waiving/trading Jim Nill's prospects in favor of a proven older dman in Sutton... then what happens in 3 years when he's washed up and Ericsson and Kindl are tearing it up? All for what? THIS TEAM ISf****** STACKED ALREADY

Blink indeed. So you're saying his contract was "brilliant" then, but he's overpaid now? That doesn't make a lick of sense. How can the same contract be brilliant and overpaid?

When a team wins the Stanley Cup, every contract was "brilliant". You do realize the ultimate prize is the Stanley Cup, right? Since Drapers contract, Red Wings have been to the WCF, CUP, SCF, and SQF.... AND HOLLAND IS STILL ICING A STACKEDf****** TEAM THIS YEAR!!!!!! Yet you are still crying? Get over it. His contract isn't that bad. His contract isn't making or breaking the team's success. You have over 10k posts and you are this dumb about hockey. My god you need to get off the internet and read "hockey for dumbies"... Gah

Again, if you had read what I previously wrote, I said a contract should be evaluated on its full term. Not just on a season by season basis. Because of course these guys are going to be worth it on the front end.

Again, Red Wings went to the WCF, CUP, SCF, SCQF, and Holland is still icing one of, (if not the best), team in the NHL this year.

That's pretty ironic considering you missed that I was kidding. Read the sentences directly after the one about Drapers points.

You say so much stupid s***, it's heard to know whats a joke and what is poor logic. Maybe you should stop "kidding" because it makes you look foolish on here.

You're great at putting words in my mouth and inventing arguments so you can shoot them down.

I don't have to put words in your mouth... you say the stupid s*** on your own.

Lol @ Drapers contract is soo bad, yet Wings past 4 years (including this year) looks like this: WCF (lost to the Ducks) :: SCF (won Cup) :: SCF (lost gm 7, entire team was banged and battered) :: Stanley Cup Quarter Finals (exhausted team from 3 previous deep runs were ousted by #1 team in the West, rookie Howard gave up a few back breakers -- but you'll probably blame Draper) Only on LGWs /facepalm

Never said Draper was 'the difference maker', he was part of the foundation to give the team that extra element that it takes to win.

I can pull up past quotes from Bowman too. But they have nothing on your hockey knowledge.

Who else do Wings need? This is a stacked team on paper. I can't wait to see how well they gel. Who would Holland use that extra $500k packaged up with (Modano?, Helm?, Eaves?, Abdelkader?, Salei?) or whoever it is you wanted to use that extra money for?

- 1st line is top 3 in the league - CHECK- 2nd line is a force with Bert-Flip-Franzen - CHECK- 3rd line is arguably best in the league - CHECK- 4th line is fast, tenacious, defensive and offensive w/ grit and sandpaper - CHECK

- 1st D-pairing w/ 4 time cup winner and captain (aka Norris Nick) & one of the best offensive d-men in the Olympics - CHECK- 2nd D-pairing w/ Stuart & Kronwall for that one/two punch in physical shut down and puck moving offense who lays players out - CHECK- 3rd D-pairing w/ Salei & Ericsson/Kindl Physical and can score pairing and young kids drafted by the best scout in the entire NHL get their chance to shine and develop - CHECK

As you can see, this team is stacked. This is a cup contending team. Only place to upgrade is the 3rd D-pairing by waiving/trading Jim Nill's prospects in favor of a proven older dman in Sutton... then what happens in 3 years when he's washed up and Ericsson and Kindl are tearing it up? All for what? THIS TEAM ISf****** STACKED ALREADY

When a team wins the Stanley Cup, every contract was "brilliant". You do realize the ultimate prize is the Stanley Cup, right? Since Drapers contract, Red Wings have been to the WCF, CUP, SCF, and SQF.... AND HOLLAND IS STILL ICING A STACKEDf****** TEAM THIS YEAR!!!!!! Yet you are still crying? Get over it. His contract isn't that bad. His contract isn't making or breaking the team's success. You have over 10k posts and you are this dumb about hockey. My god you need to get off the internet and read "hockey for dumbies"... Gah

Again, Red Wings went to the WCF, CUP, SCF, SCQF, and Holland is still icing one of, (if not the best), team in the NHL this year.

You say so much stupid s***, it's heard to know whats a joke and what is poor logic. Maybe you should stop "kidding" because it makes you look foolish on here.

I don't have to put words in your mouth... you say the stupid s*** on your own.

Lol @ Drapers contract is soo bad, yet Wings past 4 years (including this year) looks like this: WCF (lost to the Ducks) :: SCF (won Cup) :: SCF (lost gm 7, entire team was banged and battered) :: Stanley Cup Quarter Finals (exhausted team from 3 previous deep runs were ousted by #1 team in the West, rookie Howard gave up a few back breakers -- but you'll probably blame Draper) Only on LGWs /facepalm

I find it bizarre that there's so much discussion over a fourth liner. It took most of the summer for the guy to sign a one year 700k contract. Obviously he's not a highly sought-after commodity and he wouldn't make a big difference to this team.

He hasn't broken 30 points since 2003. Looking at hitting he had 92 hits in 72 games last year on a team whose culture is supposedly based around physicality. Jonathan Ericsson had 93 hits in 10 less games, and the guy barely hits at all. Asham's 92 hits actually puts him in a 5-way tie for 206th in the league for hitting last year. How inspiring.

I swear, someone on this board a couple of years ago just started pushing for him enough and this got some momentum. We're fine without him.

Also, it would be great if people could stop commenting on others' perceived intelligence, children, mothers, dogs and whatever else. Just stick to the topic.

I find it bizarre that there's so much discussion over a fourth liner. It took most of the summer for the guy to sign a one year 700k contract. Obviously he's not a highly sought-after commodity and he wouldn't make a big difference to this team.

He hasn't broken 30 points since 2003. Looking at hitting he had 92 hits in 72 games last year on a team whose culture is supposedly based around physicality. Jonathan Ericsson had 93 hits in 10 less games, and the guy barely hits at all. Asham's 92 hits actually puts him in a 5-way tie for 206th in the league for hitting last year. How inspiring.

I swear, someone on this board a couple of years ago just started pushing for him enough and this got some momentum. We're fine without him.

Also, it would be great if people could stop commenting on others' perceived intelligence, children, mothers, dogs and whatever else. Just stick to the topic.

This might be the most intelligent post that has gone down in this thread all day. Asham is a small 4th liner that doesnt hit that much, doesnt score that much, but is willing to drop the gloves on occasion. Its amazing how much credibility a player can get on LGW just because they fight.

In these threads about adding grit people always make the argument that guys who will hit, fight, and aren't total goons aren't out there to be had, at least not for cheap. Asham is a good example of a guy that was.

And I have to admire your dedication in this thread GMR, but it's a lost cause dude. If Holland had signed Asham, there would be a 20 page thread about how great the guy is and what a positive addition to the team he is. Because he signed elsewhere, most of what you're going to get is how Holland knows what he's doing and Asham is useless.

Obviously we don't know if Holland ever contacted him or Asham ever would've played here. But he's a guy who was had for cheap that would've made a team better. That seems worth commenting on. This place has become such a Red Wings cheerleading camp sometimes. Talking about this s*** doesn't mean you hate the Wings or think Holland is a bad GM. It's a hockey forum.

It's not like he was saying Holland was a terrible GM or the Wings suck. Just pointing out someone who was out there and being disappointed we didn't get him, when the argument is often made these guys don't exist or will cost too much.