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NagaBaba, just look at ukes with Chiba sensei, it is very rare that they take high breakfalls and as you know he is one that can throw you very nastily. It is my understanding that Chiba sensei is not a fan of high breakfalls.So I think aikido can be done without that kind of ukemi.

It is true; sensei doesn't like high flying breakfalls. He was witness of bad accident that happened few years ago. However I've never experienced from him any nasty throws, nor I witness it last 20 years.
However, if you follow this kind of reasoning, look at many seminars with Tamura sensei, a lot of students didn't take ANY falls, they just kept bending back a little…a real disaster if you ask me…Were they doing aikido? Or just pretending to practice?

How you want to develop a full power of the throws in aikido without uke being able to safely receive such throw?

NagaBaba, your surely been to Montréal when Tamura sensei came a few years ago. Twice I was with over 400 aikidokas and plus, I can assure you that I just bend a little unless I wanted to fall on somebody. Sometimes you have to bend to learn something

So it is tori who makes rolling possible by executing the throw in a certain shape?
If I get this right, and we agree: Tori allways has the choice to throw in a way so uke can roll out of the technique.
My point was that tori can also decide to throw in a way that uke has no chance to roll.

Quote:

... reach for the ground with one of his hand and began to roll over uke and to the mat.

Again, if I get you right I know this was of executing koshi nage.
But we use to hold the hand, uke could use to reach for the ground. It's the same like in kote gaeshi or shiho nage. And we try to "turn uke on the spot" instead of moving over/around the hips. So his back allready shows downward when he is falling.

I don' think that this is the only way to throw koshi nage or should be. That's really not my point. I just want to say, that aikidô teaches a lot of possibilities to throw uke, so he can not roll out of then technique on his own decision.

Carsten, I disagree I remember a phrase that Alain Peyrache sensei said to me one day. He said that you cannot allow nage to do whatever he wants with your body, uke is the only one who can take care of himself, never trust completely nage even if you know him. Along these years that phrase saved me a lot of troubles.

It sounds very familiar and I agree that uke has to take care of himself.

On the other side in the end it is tori who decides. As long as his techinque works he controlls uke, is able to manipulate him and lead him the way he decides. So uke has no chance to decide for himself.
At least this is the way I experience it in our practice.

Carsten, If it is tori who decides everything why is there kaeshiwaza ? To control uke 100% you have to do a technique perfectly, you know that is very very rarely the case.
Also in a technique uke may decide to let go or back off on an attack.Who controls who then ?
Anyway these are my toughts on the subject.