Exposing Joyce Meyer

Peter promised in 2 Peter 2:1-2 that false teachers would come upon the people just as they had plagued the people of God in the Old Testament days. He said, “But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed.” Unfortunately, many of these false teachers are abundantly available on the television programs of T.B.N. and other affiliates across the world. One of the most popular television teachers who must be categorized as a heretic and a false teacher is Joyce Meyer. She is extremely popular with women and many men alike. She teaches on many practical issues which make her popular, but hidden beneath her practical teaching are troublesome doctrines that need to be exposed. Joyce Meyer (like most false teachers) teaches extra-biblical doctrines as if they are divinely inspired. Meyer even goes as far on one occasion as stating that the Bible is insufficient to reveal the truth and you must get specific knowledge through divine revelation.

Errors on the Atonement

Meyer can be classified as a Word-Faith teacher and as such has shown an inclination to waffle on major doctrines. In her 1991 booklet, The Most Important Decision You Will Ever Make, an evangelistic work aimed at nonbelievers, she resounds the Word-Faith view of Christ’s atonement:

“During that time He entered hell, where you and I deserved to go (legally) because of our sin. He paid the price there … no plan was too extreme … Jesus paid on the cross and in hell” (pg. 35, underlining in the original).

“God rose up from His throne and said to demon powers tormenting the sinless Son of God, ‘Let Him go.’ Then the resurrection power of Almighty God went through hell and filled Jesus … He was resurrected from the dead — the first born-again man” (pg. 36, underlining in the original).

“His spirit went to hell because that is where we deserved to go. Remember in the very beginning of this, I said, ‘When you die, only your body dies. The rest of you, your soul and spirit, goes either to heaven or hell’” (ibid.).

“There is no hope of anyone going to heaven unless they believe this truth I am presenting. You cannot go to heaven unless you believe with all your heart that Jesus took your place in hell” (ibid.).

“Jesus went to hell for you” (pg. 38, underlining in the original).

Errors on Sinless Perfection

Her now-unavailable taped message, “What Happened from the Cross to The Throne?” Meyer continued to teach the “Born-Again Jesus” doctrine. In this message, Meyer claims to have received the Baptism of the Spirit and sometime afterward felt a strange “flipping and turning” insider her body (stomach). She claimed that this experience led to a greater understanding of salvation and a greater revelation of Jesus’ “spirit death” in hell. Meyer, like many others in the Charismatic movement, believes that Jesus suffered in hell under the power of demons.

Joyce Meyer also claimed that she no longer sins in the same taped message:

“I’m going to tell you something folks, I didn’t stop sinning until I finally got it through my thick head I wasn’t a sinner anymore. And the religious world thinks that’s heresy and they want to hang you for it. But the Bible says that I’m righteous and I can’t be righteous and be a sinner at the same time … All I was ever taught to say was, ‘I’m a poor, miserable sinner.’ I am not poor, I am not miserable and I am not a sinner. That is a lie from the pit of hell. That is what I was and if I still am then Jesus died in vain. Amen?”

Troubling Facts About Joyce – Found on her Website

From her website: http://www.joycemeyer.org/AboutUs/FAQ/faq.htm

Is Joyce Meyer an ordained minister?

Joyce was ordained over 25 years ago. She has a worldwide congregation through the Enjoying Everyday Life television and radio programs. Joyce speaks regularly at public conferences in the United States and around the world. She also preaches occasionally at the St. Louis Dream Center church, an inner-city outreach of Joyce Meyer Ministries.

Should women be ordained ministers of the gospel according to the Bible?

ANSWER: Although ordination is not specifically spelled out in Scripture, the office of elder (pastor) is not open for women. Women are not called to be pastors. This is clear from the qualifications of the office in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1.

Should women teach the Bible to men?

ANSWER: No. Women are not to be elevated to authoritative positions over men with the Scriptures. This is abundantly clear in 1 Timothy 2:12.

What is Joyce Meyer’s educational background?

Joyce holds an earned PhD in theology from Life Christian University in Tampa, Florida; an honorary doctorate in divinity from Oral Roberts University in Tulsa, Oklahoma; and an honorary doctorate in sacred theology from Grand Canyon University in Phoenix, Arizona.

Life Christian University:

From Life Christian University’s Website (http://www.lcus.edu/questions.htm): The theological position of the University, reflected in the curriculum, is based on the truth that God wants to bless and protect His children, servants, and ministers. LCU takes a Spirit-filled, Word of Faith approach in its teachings, believing that every Christian has the ability to be empowered by the Holy Spirit for a victorious and useful life through the experience of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, in addition to the New Birth experience; that faith in God’s Word for His various covenant promises can be continually increased in the believer’s life through consistent meditation on the Word, along with prayer. LCU believes the covenant promises of God include – but are not limited to – divine healing and health, divine provision and prosperity, divine peace and unity in one’s home, divine guidance for one’s life, and God’s anointing to fulfill one’s calling.

Their position on the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (http://www.lcus.edu/questions.htm): “The baptism of believers in the Holy Spirit is evidenced by the initial physical sign of speaking with other tongues as the Holy Spirit gives utterance. This experience is distinct from and subsequent to the experience of the new birth. With the baptism of the Holy Spirit comes the enduing of power for life and service and the bestowing of spiritual gifts.”

Notice that the Life Christian University’s position on the Baptism of the Spirit is an additional experience after the new birth. They clearly identify themselves within the “Word of Faith” group. These positions clearly twist Scripture and pervert the true meaning of the text.

Oral Roberts University

Known to teach very perverted doctrine – including the health, wealth, and prosperity doctrine. This university fully embraces the charismatic doctrines that are extremely troublesome and clearly violate the truths of Scripture.

This is a doctrinal position that teaches God’s desire is to make everyone healthy, wealthy, and happy. If a person does not obtain that status in life, it must be something wrong with their faith in God. This is very popular on the TBN network and should be rejected according to Scripture. For instance, Jesus was not wealthy, His disciples died for their commitment to Christ, and many missionaries suffered poverty and died for their faith in Christ. Therefore, we must reject this idea of healthy and happy doctrine.

Everything she has came from Him: the $10 million corporate jet, her husband’s $107,000 silver-gray Mercedes sedan, her $2 million home and houses worth another $2 million for her four children — all blessings, she says, straight from the hand of God.

It’s been an amazing run, nothing short of a miracle, says Meyer, a one-time bookkeeper who heads one of the world’s largest television ministries. Her Life in the Word organization expects to take in $95 million this year.

Just look around, she told reporters last month from behind her desk on the third floor of the ministry’s corporate offices in Jefferson County.

“Here I am, an ex-housewife from Fenton, with a 12th-grade education,” she said. “How could anybody look at this and see anything other than God?“

In many ways, Joyce Meyer is an American Cinderella.

Describing herself as sexually abused as a girl and neglected and abandoned as a young wife, Meyer has remade herself into one of the nation’s best-known and best-paid TV preachers. She has taken her “prosperity through faith” message to millions.

“If you stay in your faith, you are going to get paid,” Meyer told an audience in Detroit in September. “I’m living now in my reward.”

Why Should Pastors Warn the Sheep About Joyce Meyer and Others Publicly?

2 Peter 2:1-3 – But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed.And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep (ESV).

Romans 16:17 – I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them (ESV).

As a pastor, I am deeply concerned for the spiritual well-being of the people I pastor. I have a responsibility to tell the truth about people who teach things that are not confirmed by the Word of God. Joyce Meyer is one of those people. Rather than listening to her, we should all avoid her and her teachings since they clearly contradict the Word of God. Not only am I concerned about those entrusted to my care as a pastor, but I am also concerned for those who are being led astray by Joyce Meyer and other popular TBN preachers. I don’t personally know Joyce Meyer, so I can’t speak about her character. However, I can speak about her erros regarding Scripture. We have a responsibility to defend the faith once delivered to the saints. I hope and pray that you will have the discernment necessary to see the errors of Joyce Meyer’s teaching.

The audio file below is an attempt to bring to light the false teachings of Joyce Meyer.

Related

230 Comments

Spiritual discernment -may God richly bless your work! CH Spurgeon said, “We are evangelical, we are all evangelical!, but decline to define what that is . . .” How prevalent this is today.

Ashley
on January 25, 2012 at 8:51 am

Acts 18:26 says that a woman can correct a man concerning biblical doctrine. If woman where not allowed to spread the word of God to a man that may be denying the Holy Spirit. The Bible says it gives it’s gifts to both male and female equally. Paul tell us in Corinthians we may practice our gifts in the church.

Andrew
on July 18, 2012 at 6:21 am

Aquilla and Pricilla were not correcting Apollos. His teaching was accurate (v. 25) but incomplete. And anyway, Priscilla didn’t complete Appolos’ training on her own. 1 Tim. 2: 12 still applies and is the over-arching doctrine since the following verses (13 & 14) appeal to the Genesis order of creation (of man then woman) as the justification for verse 12 🙂

Gianni Crivello
on January 7, 2013 at 11:31 am

I urge you to review the Greek language translated in 1 Tim 2:12. It is very, very clearly referring to the authoritative structure of a man over a wife in spiritual concerns within a marriage. The original Greek words, when used in this context, cannot be construed to say that women should be utterly silent in the presence of men. If you will search it out, you will find numerous examples of women teaching men by the command of God in Scripture.

Andrew
on April 28, 2013 at 3:24 pm

The Greek in 2 Tim 2: 12 doesn’t refer to teaching within marriage. There are no Biblical examples of women teaching men!

Beckie
on November 25, 2013 at 4:52 pm

Hi there, as a young Christian girl I quarrelled with God and told God time and again that I would have nothing to do with Him if I was not equal to a man or if I could not do as good work or better work for Him then a man. I told this to God daily ( I was very young , lol)
God is so good and what patience He has with his very young children! I love Him for that. After saying the same thing over and over again for weeks when I finally shut up…God whispered….
IT IS NOT YOUR SEX….BUT HOW MUCH YOU ARE PREPARED TO GIVE,,,,

Kristen
on August 18, 2012 at 12:09 am

We will all find out God’s exact will and plan for everything when we get to heaven. We all believe in Jesus Christ so we are brothers and sisters in Christ. How awesome is that! And I will say that this blog seems mighty determined to put down ALL of the Trinity Broadcasting Network’s preachers. It is very interesting. I myself watch TBN on a semi-regular basis so I am familiar with some of the pastors/preachers on it. Some are more over-the-top, and some are pretty quiet and conservative. We are humans with finite minds and can only understand so much. The Bible shows us God’s word and will and amen for that. Let us not forget to remember we are all part of the same family in Christ and quibble over law like the Pharisees and Sadducees. If someone seeking faith were to come across the posts on this website, it may turn them off as all I see are argumentative words directed towards each other. Lets be careful in everything we do. The point is to help people accept God and Jesus into their life, not practice our sword drills. I will not respond to any comments as not to further arguments. Thank You! Your sister in Christ.

Totally in agreement with you. What is the message Jesus sent to us? LOVE

kaushi
on February 19, 2013 at 9:29 pm

I don’t know why there are websites that sit and blame other preachers…..if every preacher is going to be condemned, then noone will ever spread the gospel – the good news.I think all those who are trying to find errors in those who preach cannot do that, but rather go and read God’s word. I think it is upto each individual to identify it themselves through God’s word to differentiate between good and bad, and of course help others pray for the right answer from God Himself. Instead of blaming i guess they can go ahead to preach the good news if they think many are being led astray, help them understand the good and bad through God’s word. It is God who decides who is to be blesssed…disciples okay. but he let rich and good kings to rule over the kingdom too…king david, etc….

what DO you think Jesus was doing in hell?do you not think that Jesus, in hell, experienced exactly what we would experience by going there?while Jesus was the Son of God even on the cross, HE BECAME SIN ITSELF. Why else would God turn His back on His Son? I am very confused as to why you are denouncing her and her ministry…she has reached many millions of men and women for Jesus. If you don’t like her style or approach, that doesn’t make it wrong. I think the timing of this is all very interesting. The audio clip speaks of a Joyce Meyer book published in 1991, 17 years ago. Why, just now, is she being called into question for her beliefs? Is it because of the current Oral Roberts University investigation, of which she is a part? I’d like to ask you to also name some male pastors which you would call a false prophet and heretic.

Ashley
on January 25, 2012 at 8:53 am

Jesus is not SIN! That seems rather a blasphemous thing to say! He never became sin he destroyed it. You are rather confused in a lot of things I would say.

Ashley
on January 25, 2012 at 9:05 am

2 Corinthians 5:21 is referring to Jesus as a sin offering. This is more obvious in original translation of the Bible with is Greek. Jesus is not sin or we would be worshiping sin! That is satanic.

Shirley
on July 3, 2012 at 10:50 am

HE WHO IS WITHOUT SIN CAST THE FIRST STONE..JUDGE YE NOT FOR THERE IS ONLY ONE JUDGE…………

David
on September 27, 2012 at 9:04 am

Why do some people jump in the judgment boat? Oh yea ignorance,there is a difference between judging and stating facts. You quote a verse like your knowledgeable yet lack common sence to apply it…sad for shirely and others like her..

Andrew
on November 7, 2012 at 8:58 pm

It’s not judgmental to counter false teaching; it is commanded by the Bible (don’t write in capitals please…it’s rude).

REV. GUY PAPA JR
on November 26, 2012 at 5:27 pm

The fact that anybody would down talk joyce or her ministries and THE FACT THAT SHE DONATES OVER HUNDREDS OF THOUSAND DOLLARS A MONTH TO CHARITIES AND CHILDREN AND FAMILIES ACROSS THE GLOBE….Please tell me how much has your ministry donated or better yet your CHURCH! I think we all see the false preachers, prophets; who just down talk others or there spreading of GODS LOVE THROUGH JESUS CHRIST. YOU CAN QUOTE BY COPYING AND PASTING BIBLE VERSES ALL YOU WANT BUT UNTILL YOU LEARN TO SPREAD JESUS LOVE AND NOT HATE FULL WORDS TO OTHERS THAN YOU ARE NO BETTER THAN WHAT YOUR TRYING TO MAKE JOYCE OUT TO BE!!!! JESUS TOLD ME TO WRITE IN CAPS LOCK SO YOU GET THE PICTURE : )

Andrew
on November 7, 2012 at 8:56 pm

The view of Jesus descending to hell is negated by the words of Jesus Himself. On the cross, Jesus cried out, “It is finished!” (John 19:30). His suffering was over; there was no more payment needed for salvation. Also just before His death, Jesus said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit” (Luke 23:46). Upon death, His spirit went to the Father, not to hell. Also, Jesus promised the thief on the cross that they would be together today in paradise (Luke 23:43). This could not have happened if Jesus had spent three days in hell.

Mae,I don’t believe He went to hell! I believe that 1 Peter 3 is speaking of when Noah was preaching to the people that Jesus was preaching through him. Therefore, Jesus preached to the spirits who are now in prison. Christ had no reason to go to Hell. Christ did not suffer in hell . . . He paid it all on the cross with His blood!Christ never became SIN! He became the sin offering! He was the sin bearer. There is a big difference. If Christ was actual sin – He ceased to be God. That is heresy.Listing of false prophets:1. Joel Osteen2. Kenneth Hagin3. Kenneth CopelandFor more see:http://www.deliveredbygrace.com/?p=107http://www.deliveredbygrace.com/?cat=3&paged=2Rev. Josh Buice

Michael Olsen
on January 21, 2012 at 10:07 am

2 Corinthians 5:21 (KJV)
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

I believe it is you that while straining at knats swallow a camel of unbelief. But that is just my humble opinion … which like ass holes we all have them.
If he made you and Joyce righteous, who is Josh to say she is not righteous?

Oh and how about knowing God’s will, I wish for you as John and God does:
3 John 1:2 (KJV)
2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.
Try learning some humility. Problem however is, once you think you have it, you don’t.

Ashley
on January 25, 2012 at 9:02 am

Michael Olson, the Greek version (the original) says states this verse as Jesus being a sin offering. Not sin itself. Misinformed here yourself I would say!

Mae
on March 4, 2008 at 11:00 pm

Why is Joel Osteen a false prophet in your opinion?

David
on September 27, 2012 at 9:12 am

Fairly obvious…He lives lavishly prospering off the backs of his followers,does he feed the poor or house them or buy medicine for thousands? he is able ya know….oh i didn’t think so, would he give up his riches to follow Christ? isn’t the proof in his lifestyle? Oh and he danced around a question that a talk show host asked him, do you believe Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation? he wouldn’t say yes or no! lmao how much proof do you need?

Mae
on March 4, 2008 at 11:08 pm

2 Corinthians 5:21God made him who had no sin to be sin[a] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. NIVHow? you ask. In Christ. God put the wrong on him who never did anything wrong, so we could be put right with God. The MessageFor he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. KJV…for him who did not know sin, in our behalf He did make sin, that we may become the righteousness of God in him. YOUNG’S LITERAL Translation

Ashley
on January 25, 2012 at 9:08 am

The original Greek translation and the NLT that I know of recognize this translation to mean that He was a “SIN OFFERING” not SIN ITSELF. Hello people??? what are you thinking?

Mae
on March 4, 2008 at 11:09 pm

Becoming SIN doesn’t mean he became a sinner. He had no sin nature and I understand that. But I also understand He became the sacrifice, in my place…He voluntarily became sin. If He wasn’t sin, why did God forsake Him?

Ashley
on January 25, 2012 at 9:10 am

Because God sent Him as a living “sin offering” the original Greek translation and the NLT (among other translations) will clear this up for you.

Mae,Quite simply because he has denied the central doctrine of the exclusivity of Jesus Christ. In other words, he has said on national television on multiple occasions that Jesus may not be the only way to heaven (salvation) for everyone around the world. This places him in the camp with heresy!Rev. Josh Buice

Mae,There is a difference between a sin bearer and actual sin. Christ was the sin bearer for us – He did not become actual sin.Rev. Josh Buice

Ashley
on January 25, 2012 at 9:12 am

AMEN Reverend!

Mae
on March 5, 2008 at 12:37 pm

Joel Osteen’s comments you reference have been taken out of context. He believes Jesus is the one, true Savior, but he acknowledges that there are people who might not say the literal word “Jesus” and still believe in God…they may not know the word Jesus, or they may be confused and have no opportunity of discipleship, and they believe with all their hearts. Joel Osteen has taken a lot of heat for not being “hard” enough on sinners, but when you listen to him, he says that is not his purpose on a Sunday morning–on a world wide broadcast, his main goal is to talk about the love of God. How sad that he is criticized for that! He says that discipleship happens when you are involved in the church. I hate that his ministry is so heavily criticized because of his approach…I think that is sad.As for the discussion about sin, I take the verse above literally, just like the rest of the Bibles.

Mae,Actually, his words were taken within their context on several national television appearances. The end result is the same. He said, “It is not for me to judge.” In other words, he was unwilling to uphold John 14:6 – the exclusivity of Jesus Christ . . . . an essential part of the gospel. That makes him a heretic!Rev. Josh Buice

Josh one thing is painfully obvious…once these people are deceived there’s no reaching them. They obviously cannot see whats painfully clear but I commend your persistence lol God-bless and keep up the good work…David

Mae
on March 5, 2008 at 11:45 pm

Well, Joel Osteen is not to judge, only God is. I am not to judge, only God knows someone’s heart. Joel Osteen is a man of God, and I choose not to call God’s men anything…if I disagree, I choose to pray for them. I remember the story of the bears eating people…hmm…

Jonathan Patch
on March 6, 2008 at 1:48 am

Mae, you said, “his approach.”There is no “good news” without bad news. You can’t begin to explain the gospel of Jesus Christ without knowing the wrath and judgments of our Holy God. There is no comprhension of a need for Christ, until they know who they are, dead and undone in thier trespasses. You don’t lead a blind man over a cliff and tell him , “I love you”. We need the apostle Paul’s approach,”For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God”(Acts 20:27).Mae, please look up and define the word counsel.In Christ,Jonathan Patch

Mae,We will have to agree to disagree on Osteen. I believe evidence is verifiable through various news media source files to prove he actually means what he says and should be labeled a heretic.Rom. 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.Rev. Josh Buice

Mae
on March 6, 2008 at 4:20 pm

Definition of counsel (verb)forms: counseled; counseled; counselingto advise; to instruct; to coach; to advocateI do not allow news media sources to verify anything! I verify for myself–I have listened to many of his sermons, read his books, and his philosophies, and I have no doubt in my mind that he loves God and loves others and wants to lead them to the love of Christ.I know there may be things that he does that you might not agree with, you may think he takes scripture out of context, and you may even think he is 100% wrong about a lot of things. But I think it is very dangerous for man to label a servant of God “heretic.” You don’t know Joel Osteen’s heart, and I just think that is an awful message to send to non-believers. Just my opinion, and it is my opinion based on my experience in the saving Grace of Jesus Christ.

David
on September 27, 2012 at 9:22 am

well don’t worry mae, pointing out facts are not dangerous so we’re in the clear=)

Mae
on March 6, 2008 at 4:37 pm

I just read a good quote:”it is liberating to realize that salvation is not by correct belief!”We are not saved by specific little things God wants us or needs us to do. He says, “Believe in my Son.” There are, of course, other important aspects of the Christian life, but the ONLY requirement for Salvation is to Surrender to Christ. If Joel Osteen is wrong on the way he applies scripture, interprets scripture, or leads his congregation, then he will answer for it.Joel Osteen chooses to focus on the Positive Love and Power that Jesus Christ gives us to live our “best” lives. What is wrong with that message? NOTHING.What is THE MOST important part of the Love Story in the Bible? THAT JESUS LOVES US ENOUGH TO DIE FOR US. HIS LOVE is the ONLY thing we NEED. His Love is the only thing that saves us, the only thing that matters. There are doctrinal issues, scriptural commandments to follow, etc, but the ONE THING we must have is His Love.Jesus Loves ME, this I know,For the Bible tells me so.Little ones to Him belong,They are weak, but He is strong.Yes, Jesus Loves METhe Bible tells me so.Thank you, Jesus, for your love, your mercy and your grace for me, a dirty, sinning, lying, awful, no good, heretic.Definition of heretic (noun)person who holds opinion contrary to that which is generally acceptedMatthew 7:1-6 Judge notLuke 6:37-42 Judge notLuke 6:43-45 Tree and fruitLuke 6:46-46 House Built on Rock

Mae,I am going to let this be my last post on this subject for lack of time . . . but I would like to challenge you to find out how many times you hear Joel Osteen preach the gospel over the next month. He focuses on positive thinking and self helps to happiness as opposed to dealing with the root problem – SIN. If he does not preach about sin, how can anyone find the true solution in Christ for their sin?Rev. Josh Buice

Mae
on March 8, 2008 at 2:54 am

Why did your church take food and water to the people devastated by the tornadoes? Because when you meet someone WHERE THEY ARE, you can open a relationship and THEN meet their spiritual needs. I believe this is Joel Osteen’s goal and approach. I think it is dangerous to label men than you don’t know as heretics and false prophets.Again, if you don’t have time to discuss these things, you don’t have to respond.

The words of Jesus Christ:Matt. 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:Matt. 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.The words of Joel Osteen:KING: If you believe you have to believe in Christ? They’re wrong, aren’t they?OSTEEN: Well, I don’t know if I believe they’re wrong. I believe here’s what the Bible teaches and from the Christian faith this is what I believe. But I just think that only God will judge a person’s heart. I spent a lot of time in India with my father. I don’t know all about their religion. But I know they love God. And I don’t know. I’ve seen their sincerity. So I don’t know. I know for me, and what the Bible teaches, I want to have a relationship with Jesus.POINT: The way of Osteen is the broad way that leads to destruction. It is one with many opinions and many ways . . . it is a way that does not condemn any other religious viewpoint but accepts people in an inclusive way . . .The way of Christ is single, small, straight, and narrow. John 14:6 – He is the way, the truth, and the life! Acts 4:12, no other way is able to provide salvation except Jesus Christ!I hope this clears up what I believe about these false prophets of our day!Rev. Josh Buice

Mae
on March 9, 2008 at 7:48 pm

Let me tell you this–I, too have been to India and also Africa and I know what Osteen is referring to! The people may not have the doctrine down, they may not have the words, but they have the faith in God! Have they heard of God’s Son, Jesus? Many of them have not! But they know God, our God in Heaven and they love Him! It gets down to semantics, and I BELIEVE that what Osteen meant was that there are people all over the world who do look to the skies and know there is a God and they long to know more but they may not have the means to learn more. I will not be the one to judge their hearts–God can do that. I know that the only way to Eternal life is Trust in Jesus Christ! I KNOW THAT! But I also can understand why Joel Osteen said what he said, and I appreciate his honesty-admitting that he doesn’t KNOW what God will do with people who love Him but don’t know His Son. God will do that–I have plenty to take care of in myself without judging others hearts!

Mae,Actually, they worship a false god – not the true and living God. Some worship Allah and others worship other gods . . . but the fact is — most people in India do NOT worship the true and living God.If I worshiped a tree in my back yard as opposed to the true God of the Scriptures, would I be allowed into God’s Heaven when I die? But, I may not have known the name of God’s Son, but I worshiped the tree with dedication and passion . . . . will God have mercy on me?NO! That is why we spend countless millions of dollars each year to send out missionaries to the field in order to reach people with the good news of Jesus Christ.Why did Jesus say in John 14:6 — “I am the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE, no man cometh unto the Father but by me”? If people in India and Africa could worship their god and get to heaven, why did Jesus make such a strict statement?I too have gone to Africa and done mission work in Zimbabwe. Many people worship a god, but it is not the true God of Heaven! We must reach people with the true gospel – not the false one that is being spread on the television screen by folks like Joel Osteen and others. The gospel of self help, psychology, feel good, and prosperity is not the true gospel. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a bloody gospel that ransoms souls from the pit of despair and the chains of sin.You can look to the sky and know that God has created all things, but that NATURAL revelation is not capable of saving your soul. It takes SPECIAL revelation (the gospel of Jesus Christ) to save a soul. If natural revelation was capable of saving people, why would God send Christ to suffer, bleed, and die on the cruel cross of Calvary? If people in India, Africa, and all parts of the world will walk into Heaven some day without knowing Christ Jesus – wouldn’t that be a slap in the face of Christ? The fact is, many will come from India, Africa, and the uttermost part of the earth into Heaven . . . . but they will do so through Jesus Christ alone!ACTS 4:12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.For the glory of God!Rev. Josh Buice

Mae
on March 10, 2008 at 10:31 am

I understand some people in India and Africa and around the world serve Allah, Buddha, many gods, etc. The people I met serve God, our God! They know He has a Son, but they do not understand the theology or doctrine behind it! When doctrine is applied incorrectly, that doesn’t mean you are going to hell! I KNOW WHO I MET and I KNOW WHO THEY SERVE and I KNOW that the missionaries have a very difficult time ministering in these areas because of the mixed up doctrine and cultural issues. OF COURSE it is our job to make sure these people groups understand Jesus’ sacrifice! But I won’t be the one to say for sure they aren’t going to Heaven! Only God can and will weigh their hearts! Jesus is THE way, I believe that! But I also know that there are millions in the past and present and future who have never and will never be told the name of Jesus, but they will know that there is a God in Heaven…WHO AM I to judge their hearts? I am nothing! I KNOW THE TRUTH and I KNOW MY ROLE in spreading the Gospel–but I also know that our God is a gracious One, WHO DOES US natural revelation…dram near to God and He will draw near to you.I will no longer post on your issues and this is why:I have come here to really learn and grow while discussing Biblical topics. I enjoy learning, being challenged and going to the Scriptures to show others why I believe what I do. I really have enjoyed being challenged on these topics. But, I am very disheartened, I must say, at the fact that the statements you make are so emphatic. I am so sad that there are other Believers who will condemn so readily. I am amazed that you know entire continents of people and their hearts, that you know Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer’s heart, and that you are so ready to call them heretics. This is not biblical, and frankly, it shouldn’t be your priority! Our priority is this: to share Jesus’ love for all! I know the Bible gives us instruction on how to deal with false prophets, heretics, etc. But to do this with people you don’t know, people you clearly simply disagree with, and with people who have, at their core, sharing Jesus’ love with others is just sad.I love the Lord, I am thankful for His Saving Grace, I am thankful that I am not righteous even to touch His feet, yet He died for me. I am thankful that Jesus loves me past my sin, in spite of my sin, even because of my sin. I love Him for giving me the opportunity to love others and share His love with others. I also love Him for giving me compassion and grace and I pray that I never lose that for others. I pray that I keep my judgmental mind in check, and that instead of judging, I love. Instead of condemning, I love.The greatest gift He has given us is love and forgiveness. If I have all the world, but have not love, I have nothing. I pray that the people I met overseas will come to a saving knowledge in Jesus Christ, and that they will have the opportunity to be discipled and learn Biblical doctrine. But if they don’t, I pray God will have mercy on them and show them the way, through natural revelation, special revelation, miraculous revelation. I love Him for being God, that is, having no limits on who He uses, when or where He uses them.As I’ve said before, I am a heretic, I am a loser, sinner, murderer, thief, liar, cheat and He loves me anyway. He also loves Joel Osteen and you, and I’m thankful that Joel Osteen wouldn’t call you a heretic in areas in which he disagrees with you.I pray that God blesses your ministry and your family and your church. I sincerely pray that you are protected from others attacking your vision and goals. I know what it is like to have a vision and have others show disdain for it, and I pray you will not have to experience that.

liz
on November 16, 2011 at 12:40 pm

If they do not understand the theology behind it, they are not saved. Ephesians 2 says that faith is a gift from the holy spirit, and this not of ourselves. If they had received the gift of faith from the Holy Spirit, they would understand the theology. It’s that simple.
Also, the pastor who is responding to you is not wrong in saying that these people are heretics. The bible says in Matthew 7:
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.”

These people, such as Joyce Meyer, feed off of the naivety of people who do not READ their bible, and people who do not know God or Jesus. I have read Battlefield of the Mind. Several years ago, it was given to me when I knew no better. Did it do anything at all for what I was feeling? No. Did it feed off of my depravity and need for a Saviour? Yes, but it pointed me in a backwards direction and down the spiral I still went. I now know it is full of radical sensationalism, self-help jargon, and is not written or built on God’s word.
The heretics of today use the greed of humanity to present a god (lowercase because it is not the true God they present) that is there to give you Experiences, blessings (mostly material), visions, powers, and the like. This is totally wrong. God does not do these things. His word says in Luke 11:
“As the crowds increased, Jesus said, “This is a wicked generation. It asks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah. 30 For as Jonah was a sign to the Ninevites, so also will the Son of Man be to this generation. 31 The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with the people of this generation and condemn them, for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon’s wisdom; and now something greater than Solomon is here. 32 The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and now something greater than Jonah is here.”

Who is the greater one of whom He speaks? Jesus. Because Jesus had arrived, there was no more need for signs, and there isn’t today either. God’s word is what we need. I used to think church was for mysticism, prancing down aisles with flags, ribbon dancing, and alter calls where they push you backwards “into the spirit”. What spirits are they referring to? Surely not the Holy Spirit.

Mae,I am sorry if you disagree with me labeling folks as a heretic that I do not personally know. I feel like I have the right to do so after multiple television appearances and statements that have provided a clear denial of the exclusivity of Jesus Christ. That is what we are to do with those who teach contrary to the Scriptures.Therefore, with you I have sought to provide a biblical answer to your questions. My former answer regarding natural vs. special revelation was due to your statement about people going to heaven who do not even know the name of Christ. I simply do not see this anywhere in Scripture. Those who come to Christ are saved, but all others are forever lost. That is what missions is all about. That is why I went to Africa and that is why our church provides thousands of dollars each year to the mission efforts of the Southern Baptist Convention. Special revelation comes through the Word of God. It is different from the natural revelation of creation. Creation tells us that there is a God. Special revelation tells us about the problem of sin, the realness of hell and heaven, the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross, the empty tomb, and the promise of forgiveness to whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord!I hope you understand my position!Rev. Josh Buice

Christine
on April 7, 2008 at 7:09 pm

I am so appalled that you as a pastor would call out another pastor on such a murky subject. It is not clear that Pastor Osteen was saying that Jesus is not the only way to heaven. It must be difficult for someone like you who apparently, and I am only using your blog as my media resource, like to tell people how bad they are to try and get them to understand their need for Christ. I don’t recall Jesus ever telling a lost person how terrible they were. He did give them the truth about their spiritual condition, but he saved his most stringent and strong comments for those who claimed to have the faith and did not live like it. I am afraid that what I have read here on your blog is very close to if not completely Pharisaical, that means like the Pharisees. I will pray for you that God will soften your heart towards sinners, not sin, but sinners.

Jennie
on May 20, 2008 at 1:16 pm

It is sounding the shofar when we see millions being pulled away from the true word of God. This is a society of making me feel good instead of heeding to the word of God. The Pharisees were interested in more of the Rabbinacle laws and not the Torah that is why they did not recognize when the Messiah Yahshua wakjed amongst them. I have to disagree with the woman before me. She doesn’t understand the sounding of the shofar of the last days and making others aware that the blood of others is on our hands if we do not warn others of the impending damgers of supporting and following these people that preach prosperity and not what the word say.I thank you for being up front and sounding out the alarm to warn others of this is not based on God’s corner stone the Messiah… blessings to you and your ministry…

Carol
on May 21, 2008 at 9:42 am

It is a shame that someone like Joyce Meyer is being attacked. There have been days (when looking back) at he beginning of my christian journey that I do not know what I would have done without Joyce Meyer being there to pull me through. Her books, tapes and television ministry have been such a blessing to me. And you are wrong, Rev. Josh Buice. That was Rev. right? She does not feel that the Bible is insuffient to reveal the truth. In the book that she wrote entitled “How to Hear from God” she can be quoted as saying, ‘The Bible has an answer for every question we might ever have.’ Please do not try to bring false witness against someone when you do not have your facts together, especially one of your fellow brother or sisters in Christ. We are all trying very hard to work together to bring lost souls to Christ. I thank God for Joyce Meyer. So should you.

Maggie
on July 18, 2011 at 12:08 pm

well said Carol! I am grateful to Joyce for bringing me closer to GOD. I am grateful for Joyce helping me see Jesus loves me and if if were not for her I may not have seen what Jesus could mean to my life. She is a fisher and I do get what she means by FRESH… she is not proclaiming to re-write the bible she is only saying God has shown her a new way to see it and relate it to lost people like I was. Bless you all and enjoy your walk with God.

Alex
on November 29, 2012 at 12:46 am

Definitely well said. These kind of negative accusations and this type of thinking and talking turns people away from God. Joyce Meyer brings people in thousands to Jesus . She helps people to understand the Bible and who Jesus is. I think she is an incredible woman and i do not know why people would say these things about her.

Carol,Yes, it is Rev. Josh Buice.Regarding the subject of Joyce Meyer – she is constantly claiming that God has given her a “fresh revelation” to speak to people. Now, if that is so, the Bible should not be closed. If God is still giving revelations to people to speak and write down, we should start adding her books to our Bible. The point is, the Word of God is sufficient because it is completed. God once gave revelations to men to speak and write, but those days are past. Once the Bible was completed, God does not need to speak outside of His Word with fresh revelations – because His Word is sufficient in all things.That is only one example of the issues I have with Joyce Meyer and her troubling doctrines.Rev. Josh Buice

Mae
on May 21, 2008 at 10:09 am

Josh,How do you know what she means by a “fresh revelation”? My pastor sometimes ask for a “fresh annointing” and it is amazing. How do you know she means something unbiblical?I guess you would have to know and understand her authorial intent, right??

Josh;Are you saying that God cannot give a person a revelation of wisdom, of knowledge, and of truth about him self, our Redeemer…You also say that the bible isclosed, that cannot be true, because the book of Acts is still being written…Now, about Joyce Meyer, she is full of half truths, she is also one that is living a life of the rich and famous at the expense of her followers…No one deserves that kind of lifestyle…These new revelations as she calls them are nothing more but her own interpretations, which interpretations are God’s alone…When ever man puts his own thoughts in with the word of God, then what do you have? You have man/woman made doctrine instead of the doctrine of Christ…Scripture will interpret scripture, we are not to add our own interpretations…False preachers, false teachers, and false prophets are a dime a dozen, so, we are to try the spirits whether they be of God or of spirits of darkness…Humbly;Johnnie

Carol,You were pleased that Joyce said, “The Bible has an answer for every question we might ever have”Where is that in the Bible? It certainly does not have an answer for every question, or a lot of debate would be shut down!It is dangerous when our Bibles become nothing more than life answer books meant to satify our questions, not feed our souls.

Mae
on May 22, 2008 at 7:03 am

The Bible DOES have an answer for every question, every situation, every problem we may have–it’s called PERSONAL REVELATION. God can reveal something to me through His Word that He may not reveal to you or anyone else.

The Bible is closed . . .Revelation 22:18-19For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.That pretty well sums it up!Regarding special words of revelation . . . I simply think this idea lessens the sufficiency of Scripture. Either the Word is sufficient or it is partially sufficient along with special words of revelation. I argue that God has one completed book of divine revelation (special revelation) which God has given to us – and nothing else is needed in our present day.Rev. Josh Buice

I asked this question earlier on another article, and it was never answered.God can definitely tell me something personally–He can speak to me (or anyone else) and I should be able to share that without being criticized. How do you know what God reveals to individuals???Would anyone care to tell me about the group of people who decided which 66 books were included in our Bible???

Mae,I simply do not believe that God works in that way today. Why would He need to reveal something to you outside of His Word to speak to someone else? That is like saying that God forgot to include it in His Word. Is God’s Word sufficient or not?Rev. Josh Buice

Mae
on May 22, 2008 at 4:08 pm

What God tells me is something deeply personal and He does speak to each of us–individually! How did you know you were called to preach? God told you, or called you, right? He didn’t call me to that–but He called you.Saying, “I simply do not believe God works that way…” isn’t good enough–where in the Bible does it say that God doesn’t speak to us individually and directly?God’s Word IS sufficient, and it IS complete.Please, answer my question! Who/what decided which books were to be included in our Bible.

david
on May 22, 2008 at 5:15 pm

Mae, “The Bible DOES have an answer for every question, every situation, every problem we may have–it’s called PERSONAL REVELATION. God can reveal something to me through His Word that He may not reveal to you or anyone else.”Oh. where does the Bible make that claim?

UKbelflower
on March 9, 2012 at 4:55 pm

It’s called the Holy Spirit……….

david
on May 22, 2008 at 5:31 pm

Meyers teaches that Jesus had to be “born again in hell.” Do you believe that is sound doctrine?She teaches that hell, not the cross, is where Jesus purchased our salvation. And to be clear, not that Jesus experienced hell while ON the cross, but that Jesus experienced hell for 3 days after the cross. What happened to “it is finished”?

Mae
on May 22, 2008 at 5:46 pm

The Bible is my Life GUIDE. When I need direction, comfort, encouragement, instruction…every thing I need is in God’s Word. While it doesn’t say that out right, that is a personal belief I have. God’s Word is all any of us need.Where is the information on what Meyers said about Jesus and Hell? I’d love to read up on that.

Mae
on May 22, 2008 at 5:58 pm

Joyce Meyer said:”There is no hope of anyone going to heaven unless they believe this truth I am presenting. You cannot go to heaven unless you believe with all your heart that Jesus took your place in hell.”“Now whether you like it or not, whether you want to admit it or not, whether you want to operate on it or not, you are made the righteousness of God in Jesus Christ. Most people who go to denominational churches never ever hear that! They never hear it! Never! All I was ever taught to say was, ‘I’m a poor, miserable sinner.’ I am not poor, I am not miserable and I am not a sinner. That is a lie from the pit of hell. That is what I was and if I still am then Jesus died in vain. Amen?”

from the site you posted, Meyer says:”Then the resurrection power of Almighty God went through hell and filled Jesus….He was resurrected from the dead — the first born-again man.”Where does she say he was born again in hell???Also, I would love discussion about the group of men who determined which books would be included in our Bible.

david
on May 23, 2008 at 2:07 am

Here are quotes copy and pasted from the website cited below. However, it’s not like this is an obsecure thing that’s hard to find. She’s quoted saying this all over the internet.Joyce Meyer teaches that hell, not the cross, is where salvation was purchased.“During that time He entered hell, where you and I deserved to go (legally) because of our sin. He paid the price there … no plan was too extreme … Jesus paid on the cross and in hell” (The Most Important Decision You Will Ever Make (1991 booklet ) pg. 35, underlining in the original).“God rose up from His throne and said to demon powers tormenting the sinless Son of God, ‘Let Him go.’ Then the resurrection power of Almighty God went through hell and filled Jesus … He was resurrected from the dead — the first born-again man”(The Most Important Decision You Will Ever Make (1991 booklet ) pg.. 36).“His spirit went to hell because that is where we deserved to go. Remember in the very beginning of this, I said, ‘When you die, only your body dies. The rest of you, your soul and spirit, goes either to heaven or hell’”From the Cross to the Throne (Tape)“And you’ve got to really glean some things out of the Word of God to really get hold of what He [Jesus] did for you during those three days.”“Jesus said, ‘It is finished.’ And He meant the Old Covenant. The job He had to do was just getting started. He really did the job the three days and nights that He was in hell. That’s where the job was done”“He was pronounced guilty on the cross but He paid the price in hell.”“All the hosts of hell was [sic] upon Him. Upon Him. They got on Him. They got Him down in the floor and got on Him. And they were laughing and mocking.”“Sunday morning, here comes the Son. Sunday morning, God gets Himself together. Ho, hoooo. Justice has been met, somehow the thing’s been taken care of. And ol’ God gets His voice together and He hollers out three words and they go roaring through the universe and entering the gates of hell. He said, ‘It is enough! It is enough!” (emphasis in the original).http://www.inplainsite.org/html/jesus_reborn_in_hell.htmlDid you listen to the links Josh provided in the article? I found them interesting.

david
on May 23, 2008 at 5:00 am

You do see the problem, right Mae?She is teaching that Jesus did not pay for sin on the cross, but that he spent three days in hell paying for sin.

Mae
on May 23, 2008 at 11:08 am

No, I do not see the problem.Where was Jesus during those three days?Where was God when He turned His back on His Son?I do not specifically disagree with the things she said here. Actually, I think that I agree with 99% of what is taken from her book on this topic.I fail to see what part of this info makes her a false prophet.I also do not see where she says Jesus was Born Again in Hell as you stated.

Mae
on May 23, 2008 at 11:33 am

Matthew 12:40 (English-NIV)For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.Ephesians 4:10 (English-NIV)He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.I did listen to the audio, and all I learned is that Fran Sankey disagrees with Joyce Meyer…who is right? Each could take Scripture and defend his/her position.So? The lesson here is to not follow man, to follow Jesus, and ask Him for Guidance as to whom to listen to.

david
on May 23, 2008 at 3:50 pm

Mae,I don’t think hell is in the heart of the earth.The Ephesians 4:10 passage is not a good one to build a major doctrine on. Views of this include:1. He “descended” to EARTH in his incarnation.2. He “descended” to sheol to bring the Old Testament saints into his presence.The point Paul is making in that passage ist hat he gave gifts to the saints. It is NOT saying Jesus was tortured for three days in hell to buy our salvation.For anyone to claim that redemption was not bought on the cross makes them a false teacher.

Mae
on May 23, 2008 at 5:22 pm

How do YOU know what Paul meant? Your studies lead you to believe this? Again, we can go back to the argument about authorial intent!!!ONCE AGAIN, I’D LOVE for someone to answer my question about the men who determined which books would be included in our Bible.

liz
on November 16, 2011 at 12:54 pm

If you do not believe in what the bible says, then why do you go to it for comfort, guidance, etc etc. as you said before? You contradict yourself.

david
on May 23, 2008 at 6:41 pm

Mae,I gave you the two leading views on that text you cited, not my opinion. What I do not hear scholars talking about is the possibility that Paul is saying Jesus went to hell for 3 days. That is not historic Christian doctrine. It’s part of the Word of Faith movement.I did not tell you which of those views I hold.As for your citing of Jesus saying that as Jonah was in the fish, he would be in the earth for 3 days… literally: Earth. A tomb. Hell is not in the heart of the earth! (Well, I havent’ been to the heart of the earth)You might take a look at 1 Peter 3:18-20. Notice that Jesus does enter sheol — but NOT to pay for sins. Peter clearly states that has already taken place. He goes as a victor to preach, not a sinner to be punished.If Jesus died on the cross “once for all” why would he then hav eto go to hell to continue to pay. Remember, even 1 Peter 3:18 says that he died on the CROSS “once for all.” This is also the theme of Hebrews.

Mae
on May 23, 2008 at 6:49 pm

Historical Christian Doctrine is based upon studies, ideas, and yes, opinion.So are you saying Jesus was in the tomb for three days? That is not Biblically correct…

david
on May 23, 2008 at 6:50 pm

Mae,http://www.gotquestions.org/canon-Bible.htmlI think you would find a Bible handbook beneficial. Mine has articles in the front regarding such issues.I am concerned that perhaps you are thinking the Scriptures are not credible because of the process God used to bring them to us. Please tell me such is not the case.david

david
on May 23, 2008 at 6:53 pm

“Historical Christian Doctrine is based upon studies, ideas, and yes, opinion.”There is value in knowing how those who were closer to the events themselves understood their meaning.

Mae
on May 23, 2008 at 7:11 pm

The Word of God is credible because God has preserved it…however, there are critical errors that have been made due to wrong translations and humans interjecting their opinions or ideas into the meaning. I am aware that I don’t know everything, and many times I fail at getting my true point across, but just because someone has differing ideas than you do does not make them wrong…I differ in the way I interpret or apply some Scripture than you do…how does this make me more wrong than you? We both have ideas or views based on how we read Scripture. What makes me wrong? Are you the judge of right and wrong? NO! We all have ideas and all I can do is pray that God reveals my weaknesses and mistakes.I have a Bible handbook, thank you…I am asking questions because I am looking for outside input.While I may be a poor representative of my amazing, conservative, Bible Believing college, I have a minor in Biblical Studies and one in Religion. I am not uneducated or misled–I simply differ from you, and I guess, in your world, that makes me wrong? a heretic? a false prophet?I am concerned that perhaps you think you are correct and have no room to learn. please tell me THIS is not the case! I am concerned that you dismiss anyone that might have a slightly different view of the Scripture than you. I am concerned that you dismiss input from a different perspective as from the devil and ignorance. PLEASE tell me THIS is not the case!!!

Mae
on May 23, 2008 at 7:14 pm

Furthermore, I don’t think Jesus is deeply concerned with how you or I or anyone else believes He paid for our sin–the most important part of this is that He did pay for our sin. On the cross or in hell, the debt is paid and I’m forgiven. Of course there is TRUTH and that should be sought at any cost, but at the end of the day, the only thing I know is that Jesus loved me enough to die for me, to take my place (both on the Cross and in hell), and all I must do is show His love to others–the most important commandment is to love Him, and second to that, to love others.

liz
on November 16, 2011 at 12:48 pm

He most certainly is concerned with how we believe He paid for our sin. If your statement were true, then that would mean that you are denouncing God’s word. Ephesians says:
“In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he[d] made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ”
How did he pay? With the blood of Jesus! according to the riches of His grace, which means, that it is only by the grace of the Holy and Most High God that Jesus was sent to make this payment on the cross! I would strongly suggest that you start reading the word of God. Do you think we are not to recognize this? Do you think it is therefore okay to just dream up some other way that he somehow paid for our sins? You are fooling yourself. It’s all in the scriptures. Get away from the television programs. Look at these people whom you are looking to for spiritual guidance, compare them to God’s word. You are to guard yourself from these kinds of teachings! They are blasphemy against God.

Mae
on May 23, 2008 at 7:40 pm

David,You asked me where the Bible made the claim that it held an answer for every situation in life…the site you posted about the Canon states:”We have all that we need in the current 66 books of the Bible. There is not a single situation in life that cannot be addressed by Scripture. What was begun in Genesis finds conclusion in Revelation. The Bible is absolutely complete and sufficient.”

“I am concerned that you dismiss anyone that might have a slightly different view of the Scripture than you.”You don’t have a slightly different view. You are saing it doesn’t matter if Jesus paid for sins on the cross or at some time after the cross. It’s not my opinion Jesus paid for sins on the cross; the Bible says that.Mae: “Furthermore, I don’t think Jesus is deeply concerned with how you or I or anyone else believes”Wow. Thanks for explaining that to me. Nothng in the Scriptures would have taught me that.

Mae
on May 23, 2008 at 8:49 pm

I am not trying to teach you, but the least you could do is quote my sentence in it’s entirety–of course Jesus cares what we believe–what I said is I highly doubt He is deeply concerned with how we believe the sin was paid for–He simply cares that we accept His Gift of Salvation.Does the Scripture tell you that Jesus cares what you believe about WHEN sin was paid for? Where does it say that Jesus is concerned with that??? He wants you to accept His Sacrifice.

Hi Mae,Respectfully, yes it does matter when you believe Christ paid for sins.–One view makes Jesus a victim of Satan ; the other view makes him the conquerer of evil.–In one view Jesus is left powerless before Satan and is made a mockery — in the other he triumphs over evil.Further, the Bible doesn’t leave us wondering. It says that Jesus paid for sins on th cross “once for all.” This isn’t a minor theme in the Bible; it’s a major theme. He did it in one single act. He himsel declared his death a “finished” work.If his death was what finished the purchase for salvation, then he didn’t need to go be tortured for three days in hell.Also, it says something about the nature of God and sin. Jesus paying for sins before switches the role of Satan and God!God did not hand his son over to the devil to be tortured. That’s not in the Bible. In fact, the Bible says that Jesus “triumphed” over evil by the cross. Note, the “cross” not just the resurrection. Jesus completed his work on the cross.I do undertand your desire to not argue over minor details. I don’t think this is a minor issue. It goes to the heart of redemption.*Do we believe God had to buy Satan off; so he handed Jesus over to Satan? That’s what that theology teaches. But sin was not against Satan, it was againt God. It was God’s wrath that was poured out on the cross, not Satan’s. Jesus fulfilled the punishment against us by bearing God’s wrath against sin, not by being handed over to the devil.There is not a verse that says Jesus was tortured in hell after he died on the cross.Anytime someone says something is God’s word and it’s not God’s word, that’s a big deal. And yes, it is called heresy. God doesn’t allow us to just make up what we want about him.1 Corinthains says the message of the cross is foolishness. It’s too simple for some people. That’s still true today. “But for us who are being saved it is the power of God.” (1 Cor. 1:18)Does it matter if Jesus paid for sins on the cross or after he died; yes, it matters.

I hate to burst anyones bubble here, but, nobody shall enter into God’s kingdom without being born again of the water and of the Spirit…Believing that Jesus is the Christ, is the first step unto salvation, this is what the bible teaches us, but, there are other steps that we must take in order for us to be able to enter into His kingdom…WE ARE NOT FORGIVEN UNTIL WE REPENT OF OUR SINS AND ARE BAPTIZED IN THE WATER FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS…And before you accuse me of being a works base salvation, I will tell you that I am not, I am a bible believer, I am an Apostolic, my doctrine of teaching goes back to the Apostles doctrine, nothing added to nor taken away from the word of God…Water meaning: being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins…Spirit meaning: Being filled with God’s gift of the Holy Ghost and speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance…Tongues is the initial evidence of being filled with God’s spirit…Josh,I cannot believe that you put our great big God in a box, by saying;[I simply do not believe that God works in that way today. Why would He need to reveal something to you outside of His Word to speak to someone else? That is like saying that God forgot to include it in His Word. Is God’s Word sufficient or not?]Believe it or not, all of God’s thoughts,(word) are not in the bible, there is not enough room on the face of the earth for all of God’s thoughts…Has God ever healed anyone here?Is there anybody here that God has been good to?When is the last time that you have felt God’s presence, felt His glory fill the room where you are at? I am not talking about this fake mumbo jumbo stuff either…In all seriousness, have any of you witness God’s glory at work, watching someone being filled with the Holy Ghost, it is a very intense, very exciting, and a very beautiful thing to see…And then as time goes on, you get to witness God’s power continuing to work in this persons life by watching them bloom into a holy and righteous,Christ like person, it is truly awesome…Is there anyone here that, when you prayed and called out to Jesus Christ, (God) did God answer you, did God guide you and show you what you must do…Sometimes God might not answer His children right away…But He always answers…I very strongly disagree with you Josh about God speaking to His children, (not vocally, but spiritually)…And yes, God does reveal things to us by His word, but He also uses people and things to get our attention as well…The last I read in the bible, is that, God can do anything, anytime, anywhere that He chooses…

Mae
on May 24, 2008 at 6:35 pm

Johnnie,There are a lot of people on this site who limit God, often saying that in their “opinion” God doesn’t work that way…Wow!The point I wanted to make with my question about who decided which books would be in the Bible is this: the HUMAN BEINGS who decided the Canon must have had a personal revelation to know which books to include! Personal revelation happens all the time–when we are listening.As for water baptism being required to enter the Kingdom, that is not Biblical.

david
on May 24, 2008 at 8:42 pm

“As for water baptism being required to enter the Kingdom, that is not Biblical.”Who cares if it’s Biblical. that’s what he believes. you’re just stating your opinion that his view is not Biblical.Do you think God cares about a little detail like that? All he wants is for you to get saved.

Mae
on May 24, 2008 at 8:53 pm

SO TRUE, DAVID!!!It is not Biblical, IN MY OPINION, that baptism is required for Salvation–but I’d NEVER call Johnnie a heretic or false prophet because he does think so…ALL JESUS WANTS is for us to be saved!If our doctrine is mistaken, He can choose to correct us!If our application is wrong, He can show us where we are confused!Mistakes and misapplications are inevitable–we are humans! I think you are mistaken in some doctrine–but I don’t think that means you are unsaved! I just think that means you’re wrong!Jesus is the ONLY thing that gets me to Heaven. I can’t explain it, I’ll never fully understand it…I don’t know why He gave so much–but He did, for me, a worm, a sinner, a human that makes mistakes. But the mistakes I make as I journey toward a deeper relationship with Him are just that–mistakes. It does not keep me from Eternity–and if I seek Him daily, He’ll reveal those mistakes–through a deeper understanding of His Word, and, gasp, maybe even through personal revelation.

Mae
on May 24, 2008 at 8:55 pm

By the way, I believe that water baptism by immersion is the Biblical way…but I don’t think that people who are sprinkled after they are saved are sinning–I just believe they are misapplying Scripture. (there are other forms, this is just one example.)

david
on May 24, 2008 at 9:08 pm

Why would you believe the Bible is actually clear about the symbol of salvation — Baptism — but is unclear about the means of salvation: Christ deathDoes the Bible tell us when Jesus paid for our sins?

david
on May 24, 2008 at 9:11 pm

And Mae,”By the way, I believe that water baptism by immersion is the Biblical way…but I don’t think that people who are sprinkled after they are saved are sinning–I just believe they are misapplying Scripture. (there are other forms, this is just one example.)”Other forms? what other form?There is no such thing as a non-water Baptism. No such thing as a non-immersion baptism. to be “baptized” means to be “immersed.” you can’t be “immersed” by being “sprinkled.”to do anything tother than be immersed is to do something other than Baptism.Smile, Mae, God’s crazy about you.

Mae
on May 24, 2008 at 9:50 pm

I meant there are other forms that denominations or churches may practice that are also, in my opinion, wrong! OTHER FORMS that are wrong, sprinkling is just one example!Jesus paid for our sin when He selflessly and voluntarily became our sacrifice.Smile, David, God is crazy about YOU!

Mae
on May 24, 2008 at 10:01 pm

Jesus’ death alone is not the picture of Salvation–it is His death, burial and resurrection–His death doesn’t mean much if you ignore His burial and resurrection.I think the contention here is, where was Jesus when he was dead?

david
on May 24, 2008 at 10:35 pm

You’re right, Mae, salvation comes by Jeuss’ death, burial and resurrection. Sin was paid for on the cross. Would you like verses? I suspect you don’t because you also know that is true.Why would you defend someone saying ath sin was paid while Jesus was in the tomb. you must know the truth.Also, remember please: jesus etnered hell as a VICTOR, not sacrifice. He was the sacrifice on the cross, he was the victor from his death on. If you reverse that you do harm to sound doctrine.

david
on May 24, 2008 at 10:39 pm

“I think the contention here is, where was Jesus when he was dead?”The contention is what was he doing while he was dead?Would you agree with this:1. Jesus paid for sins on the cross. (Col. 1:20)2. Jesus led the old testament saints into the presence of God. (eph. 4:8)3. He preached to the spirits who were in prison. (1 Peter 3:19)4. Jesus rose again.5. After 40 days on earth, he ascended and sat down at the Father’s side.

Mae
on May 24, 2008 at 11:30 pm

I am not necessarily or intentionally defending what Joyce Meyer said about Jesus in hell…I do believe that Jesus defeated Satan and the grave…I do also believe that because Joyce Meyer may/does have this application of Scripture incorrect, she does not automatically fall into the category of heretic. Her message is still one of hope in Jesus–the only way to Salvation. When Jesus and His Message is presented, I know that He is Glorified.Yes, Truth exists.Yes, History is important.Yes, falsehoods should be addressed.Yes, we all fall short.Yes, Jesus paid for our sins on the Cross and in the death He experienced.

david
on May 25, 2008 at 9:42 am

If that’s what you believe, and you trust it is true to the Scriptures, why would you allow anyone to change that without sounding an alerm? These are the basics of faith, right?

Mae;Water baptism is biblical for salvation, just as repentance is biblical for salvation, being filled with the Holy Ghost is also biblical for salvation….Which bible are you reading?I would like to also say, that it is not my opinion, when it comes to the word of God…It is either the word of God or it is not, there is no in between with God…You all seem to believe that water baptism is not needed for salvation, well then, why is it a commandment from Jesus Christ? Why did peter command the men of Israel to:Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost…Are you so blind that you cannot see the truth?There is either truth or there is lies..(I am talking about the word of God)You keep speaking of the death, burial, and the resurrection of Jesus Christ, which is true, this is the gospel of Christ…We are to follow what the gospel says along with the rest of the bible…We just cannot pick and choose certain scriptures from the bible and base our whole salvation on that…Just as excepting the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour for your salvation, that is also not biblical…Jesus Christ called us, Jesus Christ chose us, which is biblical, not the other way around…Jesus Christ made him self a sacrifice for our sins, I do not deny that, however, there is things that we must do in order for us to receive salvation…Have you ever asked yourself, if Jesus died on the Cross for our sins and that we didn’t have to do anything else (works as you call it) for our salvation, which is freely given unto us, Then what is the purpose for the book of Romans through the book of Revelations…By your logic, Christ died on the Cross for our sins and we have salvation…Why is believing that He came so important, why is baptism a commandment from Christ Himself, why is repentance a commandment from Christ himself, why is being baptized in the Holy Ghost a commandment from Christ so important, also another free gift given by the Lord…According to your logic, none of this other is important…And this is just the beginning, why was sin talked about so much, and how we are to refrain from sin, because the wages of sin is death, (death of the spirit as well as the flesh)…Jesus wasn’t just talking to unlearned men either, the Apostles were not just talking to just unlearned men either…Christians were being told that they were doing wrong and that they had better heed to the word of God or face death…Then there is the part about how we are to put on the whole armor of God:Eph 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;Eph 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.]Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;If we are saved and our salvation is secure, then why do we need to do these things?Why do the Apostles talk about the conflict of the Spirit with the flesh…I could go on and on, but I think you get what I am saying…Yes, Christ did die on the Cross for our sins, however, there are things that we must do, commandments that we must obey….We must obey the gospel of Christ, not what some man believes to be correct for our salvation…Salvation has been paid for by Jesus Christ’s blood, but He also gave us an instruction manual to follow…Humbly;Johnnie

Mae
on May 27, 2008 at 7:12 pm

Johnnie,Where is the verse that says water Baptism is a requirement for Salvation? By the same logic, is partaking in the Lord’s Supper also a requirement?David,I do not think that Joyce Meyer is “changing” Scripture–she is interpreting it differently. I don’t agree with all that she says, but I don’t feel it’s my place to call out people, leaders, ministers, that all I know about them is what I’ve read and the very few times I have heard him/her. If you feel led to do so, do away…The basics of my faith, I believe a Christ-like faith, is to Believe, Share, Know, Delight in, and Grow–and those who do not want to do the same, I will move past…it isn’t my my job to sound alarms about anyone–the only alarm I want to sound is the one that tells a dying world about Saving Grace. Sinners and lost souls really aren’t looking to hear about a “pastor” that other “pastors” disagree with–they need to hear about Jesus’ love and Sacrifice. Sure, discipleship and training and teaching comes later, but a dying world isn’t thirsty for judgment (even when that judgment is true!)–they are thirsty for Jesus!

david
on May 27, 2008 at 7:52 pm

“it isn’t my my job to sound alarms about anyone–the only alarm I want to sound is the one that tells a dying world about Saving Grace.”How does that line up with the Scriptures? Does God say he”As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer” 1 tim 1:3Question: What did Paul command timothy to do?Question: How would that apply to us?

Mae
on May 27, 2008 at 8:58 pm

Keep reading in the same chapter…1 tim 1:8 (The Message)It’s true that moral guidance and counsel need to be given, but the way you say it and to whom you say it are as important as what you say.I think the verse sums up how I feel…maybe it’s the way these things are being said that I have a problem with.Wonder what Timothy’s spiritual gift was? Maybe he, and some of you, feel it is your calling (as a pastor or otherwise) to call out people who disagree with you–and that’s fine, if you feel called…but looking from an outsider’s perspective, I don’t think the way articles and discussions like this one really further the Love of Christ and His Message.If I’m wrong, I pray God reveals it to me (through a personal revelation no less).I believe that Josh and other pastors on this blog have their positions and feelings and views and beliefs out of careful study, prayer, consideration and understanding. But I also don’t doubt that about pastors/preachers such as Joyce Meyer, Joel Osteen, John Hagee, Adrian Rogers, Jerry Falwell, Jerry Vines, Albert Mohler…these are men and women of God, who have people’s best interests at heart, as do the rest of you here…I don’t believe for a second that any of the speakers listed above plot to misguide or deceive the followers in their flock…we all fall short, even the pastors on this board…

David
on May 28, 2008 at 12:09 am

I wouldn’t put John Hagee in the same boat with Adrin ogers or Jerry Vines.Hagee said Jesus is NOT the Messiah. Are you going to tell me that doesn’t matter either.

I said:…these are men and women of God, who have people’s best interests at heart, as do the rest of you here…I don’t believe for a second that any of the speakers listed above plot to misguide or deceive the followers in their flock…we all fall short, even the pastors on this board…I don’t (personally) like, endorse, or agree with several people I listed…I included them because I don’t think they intentionally believe the wrong thing.I don’t care for John Hagee at all, really, and I was shocked when he said Jesus didn’t come to be the Messiah. I do not feel the calling to, nor do I find it necessary to, call out pastors who disagree with me, are wrong or misguided…As for the Message translation, here you go:NIV 8We know that the law is good if one uses it properly.KJV 8But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully.NLT 8 We know that the law is good when used correctly.NKJV 8 We know that the law is good when used correctlyDare I ask what you have against The Message?

Mae
on May 28, 2008 at 3:10 pm

from Biblegateway.com:Why was The Message written? The best answer to that question comes from Eugene Peterson himself: “While I was teaching a class on Galatians, I began to realize that the adults in my class weren’t feeling the vitality and directness that I sensed as I read and studied the New Testament in its original Greek. Writing straight from the original text, I began to attempt to bring into English the rhythms and idioms of the original language. I knew that the early readers of the New Testament were captured and engaged by these writings and I wanted my congregation to be impacted in the same way. I hoped to bring the New Testament to life for two different types of people: those who hadn’t read the Bible because it seemed too distant and irrelevant and those who had read the Bible so much that it had become ‘old hat.'”Peterson’s parishioners simply weren’t connecting with the real meaning of the words and the relevance of the New Testament for their own lives. So he began to bring into English the rhythms and idioms of the original ancient Greek—writing straight out of the Greek text without looking at other English translations. As he shared his version of Galatians with them, they quit stirring their coffee and started catching Paul’s passion and excitement as he wrote to a group of Christians whom he was guiding in the ways of Jesus Christ. For more than two years, Peterson devoted all his efforts to The Message New Testament. His primary goal was to capture the tone of the text and the original conversational feel of the Greek, in contemporary English.Language changes. New words are formed. Old words take on new meaning. There is a need in every generation to keep the language of the gospel message current, fresh, and understandable—the way it was for its very first readers. That is what The Message seeks to accomplish for contemporary readers. It is a version for our time—designed to be read by contemporary people in the same way as the original koiné Greek and Hebrew manuscripts were savored by people thousands of years ago.Some people like to read the Bible in Elizabethan English. Others want to read a version that gives a close word-for-word correspondence between the original languages and English. Eugene Peterson recognized that the original sentence structure is very different from that of contemporary English. He decided to strive for the spirit of the original manuscripts—to express the rhythm of the voices, the flavor of the idiomatic expressions, the subtle connotations of meaning that are often lost in English translations.The goal of The Message is to engage people in the reading process and help them understand what they read. This is not a study Bible, but rather “a reading Bible.” The verse numbers, which are not in the original documents, have been left out of the print version to facilitate easy and enjoyable reading. The original books of the Bible were not written in formal language. The Message tries to recapture the Word in the words we use today.

David
on May 28, 2008 at 4:34 pm

Mae,I have nothing against the message. I was teasing you. I own a message. Return to normal resperation.It’s good you think that these false teahers do not deliberately distort the Gospel. It is suspicious to me that their false teaching always leads to the flock giving them money — Jesus wants us rich means give give give to them. They do have a motive for distorting truth. Once one has gone that direction in one area, it’s easy to continue to sensationalize the Gospel in many area’s.

David
on May 28, 2008 at 4:36 pm

mae “I do not feel the calling to, nor do I find it necessary to, call out pastors who disagree with me, are wrong or misguided…”I agree with that view! However, they don’t disagree with us, they disagree with the Scriptures. You and I don’t manufacture what we believe, we simply choose to believe the Bible. They choose to make stuff up! Will you stand for what the Bible says is true?

Mae
on May 28, 2008 at 6:12 pm

Does it really ALWAYS lead to a discussion about money? I don’t think it does…I don’t see Joyce Meyer saying “since Jesus paid for sin in hell and not on the cross, buy me a Porsche.” It isn’t always a sensationalization of the Gospel–sometimes it is someone who is just plain wrong!I don’t think there is an agenda of purposefully leading people astray and away from God and Truth. Saying that someone disagrees with God and the Bible isn’t up to me–Joyce Meyer doesn’t think she disagrees with the Bible–she can use the Bible to tell you why she believes what she does…just as you can…then, the determination must be made–who is correct? Who to believe? Who to listen to? You or Joyce Meyer? You are both so convinced, you both use Holy Scripture to explain your beliefs, each claim that these are Truths laid out in Scripture, each claiming that the way you view Scripture is God’s way…so who is correct????? You?

Mae
on May 28, 2008 at 6:15 pm

The last paragraph comes across the wrong way…of course there is an agenda out there that purposely leads people away from God’s Forgiveness…but it isn’t always the case, some people are just mistaken or confused.

David
on May 28, 2008 at 6:17 pm

You already said you don’t agree with them. Why do you turn now to the old argument: No one can really know what the scripture says?Paul was pretty clear about how he felt about people who distort the Bible. “If any man preaches to you a gospel other thant he one we preached, let him be curased.” Only, Paul doesn’t say cursed. Was Paul upset that someone just didn’t hold his opinion?Again, it’s not about my opinion, it’s about what the Bible says. The Bible does not say Jesus went to hell in the way Meyers and others claim. Your view would lead you to fall for any commentary on Scripture.Mae, what do you believe?

Mae
on May 28, 2008 at 6:54 pm

Paul was very clear about distorting the Bible! My point is that you can tell me something about the Bible–you can show me the verse, you can tell me the Biblical way to apply that verse…and my pastor may show me the exact same verse and tell me the Biblical way to apply it, and it may be different from your way to apply it. Who is right? The one who applies the Bible?I believe that Jesus died for me, on the cross, to pay for my sin.I believe that the gift of Forgiveness is given freely, because nothing I could ever do would be good enough to earn it. It is some magic-like act that God does that just wipes away my sin, and sends them so far away, even He can’t find them!I believe that Jesus is my Friend, my Savior, my Guide, my Strength, my Refuge.I believe that God the Father, the Holy Spirit and Jesus dwell as three in one, even though I can’t explain how.I believe it is my duty to seek out Christ daily, as to grow deeper in my knowledge and love for Him.I believe it is my privilege to share the Truth that I know with a dying world.I believe that Jesus was and is the Answer to every question, problem or decision I will ever have to make.I believe that my local, Bible believing, teaching, and preaching church is a source of fellowship and encouragement in my walk.I believe that I fall short every single day in my pursuit of who He is and what He wants from me.I believe that even when I fall short, God uses me to minister and touch others for His Glory.I believe that there are lots of people in this world who use God’s Word for their own purpose and agenda, that they manipulate and distort Scripture to take advantage of others and to further their own ideas or mission.I believe that people who do this will be punished by God our Judge.I believe that people who differ in their views, opinions, and ideas or applications of the Bible shouldn’t argue, but should continue to seek God’s direction for their lives.I believe that my faith is living and breathing, and every day I learn something new…and I pray that I never get to the point where I think I know everything about my Faith or my Father.I believe that God can use even a donkey, and so He uses people even like Joyce Meyer, Joel Osteen, John Hagee, etc–even if I disagree or think they are wrong, I believe that they minister to people every day.I believe that I have much to learn and many times don’t know my head from a hole in the ground, but I’m trying, I’m learning and I’m growing.

Mae;Johnnie,***Where is the verse that says water Baptism is a requirement for Salvation? By the same logic, is partaking in the Lord’s Supper also a requirement?***I have given you scripture but you are unwilling to believe the word of God, however, I will try again…1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.Act 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.And also, if you are referring to communion of breaking of bread and foot washing, yes I do…We are to brake bread and to drink wine,(not fermented wine), we are to also wash each others feet as of remembrance of Him,(Communion)…Now there are those whom will argue that this is or is not necessary, but I choose to do what my Lord has given me as an example to do…I follow Jesus Christ, I follow the doctrine of Christ, I do not follow man or man made doctrine…Am I perfect in all things, of course not, no man is perfect, only one is perfect and He is in heaven…We are as His disciples to strive for perfection in doctrine…Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.Mae, if you choose to follow a different path in life, remember;Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.I believe that Josh brought this up in an earlier comment…As always I enjoy conversing with others who choose to follow God…Humbly;Johnnie

Mae;Don,t lose your love for the word of God…Don’t lose your focus on God because God will guide you into all truth…Now,with that said, All T.V. and radio preachers and evangelists are false, unless you personally know them and know that they preach the gospel as God meant to be…I know of one…Joyce Meyer, Joel Osteen, John Hagee, and many others are liars, just listen to what they say, remember, satan will work through people to pervert the word of God…They make it sound sweet, they will tell you the good news, but they will not tell you what you must do to insure your salvation…Have you ever wondered why hell is enlarging herself:Isa 5:14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.And God gave us the exact measurements of heaven…Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,Rev 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:Rev 21:13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.Rev 21:15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.Rev 21:16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.Rev 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, a hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.Rev 21:18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.Rev 21:19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;Rev 21:20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.Rev 21:21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honor into it.Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.Rev 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honor of the nations into it.Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.Does not heaven sound beautiful, and is already measured, not many here will be going there, most will follow the strait and wide gate because it is easy to follow…Humbly;Johnnie

david
on May 28, 2008 at 8:15 pm

“I believe that God can use even a donkey, and so He uses people even like Joyce Meyer, Joel Osteen, John Hagee, etc–even if I disagree or think they are wrong, I believe that they minister to people every day.”So a person of God is judged by their ministry to people, not their truth to the Word? In that case, Mormon’s shouldn’t be confronted or any other cult.Just because someone “minsters” to people everyday does not mean they are a person of God. And if anyone twists the Gospel, they should be boldly confronted by us who believe. Don’t be afraid to stand for what you believe. What you were taught.Paul said that in the last days men would not put up with sound doctirne. I think we’re getting close here.”I can’t believe your fickleness — how easily you have turned traitor to him who called you by race of Christ by embracing a variant message! It is not a minor variation, you know; it is completely other, an alient message, a no message, a lie about God. Those who are provoking this agitation among you are turning the Mesasge of Christ on its head. Let me blunt: If one of us — even if an angel from heaven! — were to preach something other than what we preached originally, let him be cursed. I said it once; I’ll say it again: If anyone, regardless of reputation or credentials, preaches something other than what you received originally, let him be cursed.Do you think I speak this strongly in order to manipulate crowds? Or curry favor with God? Or get popular applause? If my goald was popularity, I wouldn’t bother being Christ’s slave. Know this — I am most emphatic here, friends — this great Message I delivered to you is not mere human optimism. I didn’t recieve it through the traditions, and I wasn’t taught it in some school. I got it straight from God, received the Message directly from Jesus Christ.”Galatains 1, message

david
on May 28, 2008 at 8:17 pm

mae, “I believe that I have much to learn and many times don’t know my head from a hole in the ground, but I’m trying, I’m learning and I’m growing.”Amen! me, too

Mae
on May 28, 2008 at 8:43 pm

Johnnie,I don’t believe water baptism is required to get to heaven–it is a symbol of the work Christ has done in you, and should be done as an act of obedience to Jesus’ example for us.Was the criminal on the cross baptized? If someone believes Jesus is the Christ, and chooses to follow Him, but is not baptized, do they go to hell?

Mae
on May 28, 2008 at 8:50 pm

Since I disagree with Johnnie on a part of Scripture–on what the Bible really says about baptism, which one of us is correct? How do you determine who is correct?David-a person is not judged by their ministry, but by their fruit…I am not afraid to share what I believe or to stand for truth–I just try to understand that the truth revealed to me is my truth–it is the truth that Jesus reveals to me–and God-willing, His truth is revealed through me…but just as Johnnie and I disagree, I don’t think his beliefs are intentionally misdirected…and it certainly isn’t my priority to correct him! I just trust that when someone is false, they will fail! We have seen many televangelists and pastors fall–why? Because they are false! No one had to call them out–they became known by their fruits.Johnnie–I wholeheartedly disagree that “All T.V. and radio preachers and evangelists are false, unless you personally know them and know that they preach the gospel as God meant to be.” I don’t know Albert Mohler, but I believe he is on the radio and I wouldn’t call him false. I don’t know Jerry Vines or Charles Stanley or Chip Ingram or Adrian Rogers (although I use to attend Bellevue in Memphis)…but I don’t believe they are false!

david
on May 29, 2008 at 2:24 am

I just trust that when someone is false, they will fail!Worldly success is not always a good measuring rod. Many who “failed” in the world’s eyes were great in Gods:James, the half brother of Jesus. StonedPeter. Crucified upside downMatthew Killed by swordJames the son of Alphaeus Crucified.James son of Zebedee Killed by swordThaddaeus Shot with arrowsBartholomew CrucifiedAndrew CrucifiedPhilip CrucifiedSimon the zealot CrucifiedThomas SpearedPaul BeheadedHow about the fruits of:Driving fancy cars, living lavish lifestyle. While Apostles died for this faith, the prosperity gang teahes health and wealth. I’m tired of watching the Joy Boys on TV make Christanity the newest coolest thing, when we know in truth the Gospel they are presenting is the very lie Paul talked about in Galatains. It is not the same Gospel.And Mae,An obvious “fruit” someone is false is that they are not in harmony with the clear teaching of Scripture.

Mae;If God himself came up to you right now, I believe that you would ask Him for His green card to see if He was who He said He was…I gave you good sound doctrine on being baptized as a requirement for salvation, however, you choose not to believe the word of God, therefore I cannot do anymore for you…The funniest thing though, you are willing to believe those who preach false doctrine…They cannot back up what they preach…It doesn’t matter what I think, it doesn’t matter what you think, what matters is what the word of God says, God said, study the scriptures, it isn’t good enough to just read them…No baptism, No salvation….it is written in the bible that any one that preaches another gospel,let them be accursed:Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.Perhaps your College is not teaching correctly on the word of God…I will pray for you…And to answer your question about the thief on the Cross that day beside Jesus Christ, he repented of his sins, he was also under the law then, also God which is Jesus Christ can do anything that He chooses to do…If we do not follow the plan of salvation that the Lord has written in the bible, yes, you will go to hell, and that is not my word, but the word of God, God is the author and the finisher of our faith:Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.Humbly;Johnnie

Mae
on May 29, 2008 at 8:56 am

David-Being martyred for the faith is not a failure.I am speaking of people who do wrong things–what is in the dark will come to light–their ministries can’t survive long, they don’t survive long and they don’t bear real fruit–you know they don’t!Johnnie,John 3:16John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.Ephesians 2:8-98For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.Titus 3:5he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.In addressing the fact that the criminal was under the law then, so was Nicodemus under that same law–yet you used Jesus’ conversation with him as proof for baptism…hmm??? If they were both under the same law, how can one be required an extra step for Salvation? Saying, “Jesus can do whatever He wants” is a weak argument when you are talking to someone who is not saved or has very little Biblical knowledge.Being “Born of water” is not referring to baptism–it is referring to a spiritual cleansing. Ever heard of living water?Ezekiel 3625″`Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean; from all your filthiness and from all your idols will I cleanse you. 26A new heart also will I give you and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. 27And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and ye shall keep My judgments and do them.I would encourage you, Johnnie, to study the verses you have listed, but do so in the original Greek. You will find that many of the very small words like “for” have an entirely different meaning in the Greek.My “college” is a major Christian University–Baptist at that–and though you sign your name “humbly,” a swipe at my school and my intelligence is anything but. You don’t know me, and you say things like I’d ask God for His green card…wow…I hope that you would not try to share the Gospel with a lost soul the way you share your beliefs on this board–the way you present your beliefs comes across as very arrogant.David, Rev Josh, Chiply McQueen Thornton–Do any of you agree with Johnnie’s exposition re. baptism? If so, please let me know. If not, why would you not correct him like you are so quick to correct others???

Johnnie,As I read your statements regarding baptism – I notice that you have made some very troubling statements. As you well know, I do disagree with your position on baptismal regeneration.Baptism is very important. It identifies us with Christ and His death, burial, and resurrection (Romans 6:4). Notice in that verse – the phrase “like as” is used which implies a symbolic identification rather than a spiritual regeneration.Secondly, you said, “No baptism, No salvation….” That is troubling! What happened to the thief on the cross next to Christ? Did he die and go to hell or to be with Jesus in Paradise?Salvation is through the blood alone! No faith in the blood – no salvation! There is not one single instance in world history where a person was saved without faith in God. However, if you claim “No baptism, No salvation….” – I can show you at least one example of someone who died with faith but no baptism – and he went to heaven!Rev. Josh Buice

Mae;John 3:16I love that verse of scripture, but you have once again misunderstood what it is saying, let’s take a look at it:Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.You will notice that it says; “should not perish”, it does not say will not perish, and then, what do you do with John 3:3-5, this is a commandment for us to follow, to abide by…With out being born again of the water and of the Spirit, you will not enter into His kingdom….Also, did not Jesus Christ do things like being baptized and being filled with the Holy Ghost, so that it would be an example for us to follow or why else would He do anything…Mae, for someone claiming to want to learn, why is it that you become so argumentative, so defensive? I do not believe that I said anything to cause any hostility unless I am not able to share my thoughts or my opinions…I am someone that does not beat around the bush about it, I am straight forward, however, I do understand that some folks like it to be fed to them slowly and easy…We are to be bold with the word of God and to point out an error when it comes to the word of God, not to play, patty cake, sorry, but my comments are not to do harm, only to teach….Water baptism is part of the new birth…Joh 3:3-5Be born of water – By “water,” here, is evidently signified “baptism.” Thus the word is used in Eph_5:26; Tit_3:5. Baptism was practiced by the Jews in receiving a Gentile as a proselyte. It was practiced by John among the Jews; and Jesus here says that it is an ordinance of his religion, and the sign and seal of the renewing influences of his Spirit.So he said Mar_16:16, “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.” It is clear from these places, and from the example of the apostles;{Act_2:37,38, Act_2:41; Act_8:12-13, Act_8:36, Act_8:38; Act_9:18; Act_10:47-48; Act_16:15, Act_16:33; Act_18:8; Act_22:16; Gal_3:27,}that they considered this ordinance as binding on all who professed to love the Lord Jesus. And though it cannot be said that none who are not baptized can be saved, yet Jesus meant, undoubtedly, to be understood as affirming that this was to be the regular and uniform way of entering into his church;that it was the appropriate mode of making a profession of religion; and that a man who neglected this, when the duty was made known to him, neglected a plain command of God.It is clear, also, that any other command of God might as well be neglected or violated as this, and that it is the duty of everyone not only to love the Saviour, but to make an acknowledgment of that love by being baptized, and by devoting himself thus to his service.But, lest Nicodemus should suppose that this was all that was meant, he added that it was necessary that he should “be born of the Spirit” also. This was predicted of the Saviour, that he should “baptize with the Holy Ghost and with fire,”Mat_3:11. By this is clearly intended that the heart must be changed by the agency of the Holy Spirit; that the love of sin must be abandoned; that man must repent of crime and turn to God; that he must renounce all his evil propensities, and give himself to a life of prayer and holiness, of meekness, purity, and benevolence. This great change is in the Scripture ascribed uniformly to the Holy Spirit, Tit_3:5; 1Th_1:6; Rom_5:5; 1Pe_1:22.If we believe, then we will obey the gospel of Christ…Water baptism is necessary for our salvation…The spiritual cleansing you speak of is the infilling of the Holy Ghost which cleans our souls of all our filth and iniquity, that is being born of the Spirit which the Lord is speaking of in John 3:3Mae;Baptism means to be immersed in water, which cleans the outside, but then, we must be baptized with the Holy Ghost which cleans the inside…As Always;Humbly;Johnnie

david
on May 30, 2008 at 8:00 pm

Mae, “I am speaking of people who do wrong things–what is in the dark will come to light–their ministries can’t survive long, they don’t survive long and they don’t bear real fruit–you know they don’t!”You are putting “fruit” on a higher level than Scripture. You would rather judge by fruit than discern the plain Word of God.”If not, why would you not correct him like you are so quick to correct others???”Remember, you asked.I do disagree with Johnnie. So why do I correct you? Because you haven’t yet bought in to his arguements, but your footing seems shaky. That is dangerous.Your attitude is that if someone is false, then God will take them out. We don’t need to expose them.Mae, you chalk serious doctrinal error up to disagreements over “interpretation.” I am concerned that kind of attitude could land you in a church where, without a solid Bible center, you could be seriously misled.You could end up in a misguided “mega church” where truth is not taught, but it appears fruit is good.Earlier you said you would have no problem going to Johnnie’s church.If you do not have the spiritual skills to discern the importance of when or where Christ paid for sin, then it concerns me where you will be led in life by pastors and teachers. Earlier you actually said God doesn’t care what we beleive about where Jesus paid for sins (in hell or on the cross).You were lucky to go to a “very conservative” college. I hope you continue to move in those circles.

david
on May 30, 2008 at 8:03 pm

Johnnie,You didn’t answer Josh’s question. What about the thief on the cross? I also am curious about that.

David, Josh;The question about the thief on the Cross was answered in a previous comment when I was speaking to Mae, I believe…Although is was rather short and brief….We see every mark of conversion, and of the most remarkable faith. The fear of God, the beginning of wisdom, is there; conscience upright and vigorous. It is not “and justly” to his fellow, but “we indeed justly”; knowledge of the perfect sinless righteousness of Christ as man; the acknowledgment of Him as the Lord, when His own disciples had forsaken and denied Him, and when there was no sign of His glory or of the dignity of His Person.He was accounted by man as one like himself. His kingdom was but a subject of scorn to all. But the poor thief is taught of God; and all is plain. He is as sure that Christ will have the kingdom as if He was reigning in glory. All his desire is that Christ should remember him then; and what confidence in Christ is here shewn through the knowledge of Him in spite of his acknowledged guilt!It shows how Christ filled his heart, and how his confiding in grace by its brightness shut out human shame, for who would like to be remembered in the shame of a gibbet! Divine teaching is singularly manifested here. Do not we know by divine teaching that Christ was sinless, and to be assured of His kingdom there was a faith above all circumstances?He alone is a comfort to Jesus upon the cross, and makes Him think (in answering his faith) of the Paradise that awaited Him when He should have finished the work that His Father had given Him to do. Observe the state of sanctification this poor man was in by faith.In all the agonies of the cross, and while believing Jesus to be the Lord, he seeks no relief at His hands, but asks that He will remember him in His kingdom. He is filled with one thought, to have his portion with Jesus. He believes that the Lord will return;He believes in the kingdom, while the King is rejected and crucified, and when, as to man, there was no longer any hope. But the reply of Jesus goes farther in the revelation of that proper to this Gospel, and adds that which brings in, not the kingdom, but everlasting life, the happiness of the soul.The thief had asked Jesus to remember him when He returned in His kingdom. The Lord replies that he should not wait for that day of manifested glory which would be visible to the world, but that this very day he should be with Him in Paradise. Jesus crucified was more than King — He was Saviour.God can do all things at anytime in which He chooses, it is not up to us to decide what we think what is right and what is wrong…Scripture will interpret scripture as the bible says, mans thoughts are not needed in that respect, but to be obedient unto the word of God…Again, I would like to say, I am not here to argue or to degrade anyone from what they believe to be true or untrue…God has sent me out into the world to preach His gospel as it should be…I understand that it will offend some and not others…I hate the spirit of a false preacher, teacher, and a false prophet…There are to many sinners in the world going to hell and they don’t even know it, what a shame…And Josh, David;1) No believing, No salvation2) No repentance, No salvation3) No baptism, No salvation4) No Holy Ghost, No salvationFour simple steps unto salvation…I am not the author, God is, and His word explains it all…That is where faith and grace comes in, we must have faith to believe that it will happen, then we need the grace of God to teach us what we must do in order to be saved from our sins, from this untoward generation…The word of God is an instruction manual for us to follow and to obey, it was not meant for us to look for loop holes from the laws or His commandments…Humbly;Johnnie

Jonthan
on May 31, 2008 at 12:31 am

Johnnie,What is your interpretation of being “born again” (John 3:3-5)? The reason I ask is because your four simple steps are the result of being born again, not the reason or requirements for the new birth. My brother, faith is not man’s gift to God, but God’s gift to man (Eph. 2:8-10).To God be the glory!

David
on May 31, 2008 at 3:52 am

Good point, Jonathan. If Baptism is required for salvation, then we are saved by our good works, not grace.

Jonthan;Okay, First of all, it is not my interpretation of God’s word…It is the word of God, I did not write the bible, Jesus Christ is the author… I think you have works mixed up with obedience, there is things a man must do in order to receive eternal life with our Father, is not believing one of them, and couldn’t believing be considered a work?Is it or is it not a commandment from Jesus Christ to be born of the water and of the Spirit?Did Peter command the house of Israel to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ or not?Seems to me that water baptism is indeed important unto our salvation or it would be mentioned for being saved and remission of sins…Be born again – Or, from above: different to that new birth which the Jews supposed every baptized proselyte enjoyed; for they held that the Gentile, who became a proselyte, was like a child new born. This birth was of water from below: the birth for which Christ contends is from above, by the agency of the Holy Spirit.Every man must have two births, one from heaven, the other from earth, one of his body, the other of his soul: without the first he cannot see nor enjoy this world, without the last he can not see nor enjoy the kingdom of God.As there is an absolute necessity that a child should be born into the world, that he may see its light, contemplate its glories, and enjoy its good, so there is an absolute necessity that the soul should be brought out of its state of darkness and sin, through the light and power of the grace of Christ, that it may be able to see or to discern, the glories and excellencies of the kingdom of Christ here, and be prepared for the enjoyment of the kingdom of glory hereafter.The Jews had some general notion of the new birth; but, like many among Christians, they put the acts of proselytism, baptism, etc., in the place of the Holy Spirit and his influence: they acknowledged that a man must be born again; but they made that new birth to consist in profession, confession, and external washing. See on Joh_3:10 (note).The new birth which is here spoken of comprehends, not only what is termed justification or pardon, but also sanctification or holiness. Sin must be pardoned, and the impurity of the heart washed away, before any soul can possibly enter into the kingdom of God.As this new birth implies the renewing of the whole soul in righteousness and true holiness, it is not a matter that may be dispensed with: heaven is a place of holiness, and nothing but what is like itself can ever enter into it.Grace is:1. Favor; good will; kindness; disposition to oblige another; as a grant made as an act of grace.2. Appropriately, the free unmerited love and favor of God, the spring and source of all the benefits men receive from him.And if by grace,then it is no more of works. Rom 11.****The works that are being discussed here are the, cerimonial laws; sacrificing of animals for sins which could not remove the sin record, only the blood of Christ could do that****3. Favorable influence of God; divine influence or the influence of the spirit, in renewing the heart and restraining from sin.My grace is sufficient for thee. 2 Cor 12.4. The application of Christ’s righteousness to the sinner.Where sin abounded, grace did much more abound. Rom 5.5. A state of reconciliation to God. Rom 5:2.6. Virtuous or religious affection or disposition, as a liberal disposition, faith, meekness, humility, patience, proceeding from divine influence.7. Spiritual instruction, improvement and edification. Eph 4:29.8. Apostleship, or the qualifications of an apostle. Eph 3:8.9. Eternal life; final salvation. 1 Pet 1:13.10. Favor; mercy; pardon.11. Privilege.12. Natural or acquired excellence; any endowment that recommends the possessor to others; as the graces of wit and learning.Day in grace, in theology, time of probation, when an offer is made to sinners.GRACE, v.t. To adorn; to decorate; to embellish and dignify.1. To dignify or raise by act of favor; to honor.2. To favor; to honor.3. To supply with heavenly grace.Water baptism:Matt 28:19Mark 16:16Acts 2:38,41Acts 8:16Acts 10:48Acts 16:33Acts 19:5Acts 22:16It is worthy of remark that Jesus has made “baptism” of so much importance. He did not say, indeed, that a man could not be saved without baptism, but he has strongly implied that where this is neglected “knowing it to be a command of the Saviour,” it endangers the salvation of the soul.Faith and baptism are the beginnings of a Christian life: the one the beginning of piety in the soul, the other of its manifestation before men or of a profession, of religion. Every man endangers his eternal interest by being ashamed of Christ before men. See Mar 8:38.So, if baptism is not required for salvation, then, why do you baptize your saints?David, I think you have me mixed up with Catholics, they believe in good works saves, be good be saved, ect.Humbly;Johnnie

Jonathan
on May 31, 2008 at 12:08 pm

Johnnie,Let me rephrase my question in accordance with your response. Did you have four simple steps to be born from your mother’s womb? Of course you didn’t. If you can’t bring forth your natural birth then how is it you can bring forth your spiritual birth. What is born of flesh is flesh but what is born of the Spirit is spirit (John 3:6).My point is, the new birth that Christ is referring to is a work of God, not man’s. God creates a new creation (born of God) in Christ. Man, who is dead in his sin, needs a new birth, a spiritual resurrection, in order to embrace Christ for salvation.Johnnie, you have your cart before the horse. The obediance or works you refer to are a result of the grace of God. God grants you repentance, which is the ability to turn from your sin. This ability is not of yourself least any man may boast.

Jonathan;Spiritual birth or regeneration can only be done by God, that it correct…But, we must also go under the water and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission sins, which buries us with Christ, we should not be ashamed of our Lord, and it is also a commandment for us to do this…Man can do nothing on his own to save his self, we could not do enough good work in a whole life time…It’s like drinking from a cup, a man would not want just the outside clean before he drank from it, but he would also want the inside clean as well…The death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ had to be completed so that we as flesh and blood could be saved from our sins…The death, burial, and the resurrection was God work, then as obedient saints we are to follow what God had written in the bible, mans work…Everything that we do for God is a work, all His commandments, all His laws that we are to follow…God gave us the ability to, God gave us the knowledge to , God gave us the strength to, Yes, God given, however, man must obey by doing what God told us to do, or a work if you choose…God makes all things possible…What is grace, grace is teaching, is this not what God was doing, and instruction, was this also something that God was teaching us by His word, by His gospel…John 3:6That which is born of the flesh is flesh – This is the answer to the objection made by Nicodemus in John 3:4. Can a man enter the second time into his mother’s womb and be born? Our Lord here intimates that, were even this possible, it would not answer the end; for the plant will ever be of the nature of the seed that produces it, like will beget its like.The kingdom of God is spiritual and holy; and that which is born of the Spirit resembles the Spirit; for as he is who begat, so is he who is begotten of him. Therefore, the spiritual regeneration is essentially necessary, to prepare the soul for a holy and spiritual kingdom.The soul was considered as in a state of defilement, because of past sin: now, as by that water the body was washed, cleansed, and refreshed, so, by the influences of the Holy Ghost, the soul was to be purified from its defilement, and strengthened to walk in the way of truth and holiness…[“In other words, water baptism could not wash the soul, only the Holy Ghost could clean the soul”]…Jonathan;You have to connect the horse to the cart before you can move forward…Humbly;Johnnie

david
on June 1, 2008 at 4:06 am

“Seems to me that water baptism is indeed important unto our salvation or it would be mentioned for being saved and remission of sins…”Can something be important without actually saving?Was my wedding ring important to the wedding ceremony? yes. Does my ring make me married? No.I would agree that we tend to devalue Baptism in order to emphasize its symbolism, but I also don’t think we should replace Baptism with the work it symbolizes.Think about the wedding ring anology.–The ring does not make me married, but it shows people I am married.–The ring is important to my wife because it tells others I belong in covenant with her.–My children put my wedding ring in the heater. Am I still married? . . .No ring, no marriage ?And I apologize, but I did not get your answer on the thief on the cross. Can you explain this to a very slow preacher?

Jonathan
on June 1, 2008 at 11:45 pm

Johnnie,The more I correspond with you the more concerned I become. Your view of Christ on the cross is probably the view of the majority of professing Christians. Although, it being the view of the majority, it is a view that should concern you.To view the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ as a “potential” salvation that is dependent on the abilities of man to make it sufficient is unbiblical and man-centered.To God be the glory!May God bless you.

David
on June 2, 2008 at 12:49 am

“He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.” 1 John 2:2 ESVJonathan,do you believe Jesus death paid for the sins of the world?

Jonathan;Thank you for your concern, however, my views on salvation is not my view, but it is the written word of God…1) The majority of Christians believe in once-saved, always saved, which is not biblical…2) The majority of Christians also believe that all one has to do is accept the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour and you are saved, which is also not biblical…3) The majority of Christians also believe in the trinity which is a lie from hell…The bible does not teach trinity, but it does teach, “One God”….Not God the Father, God the Son, and God the holy spirit….I do not go along with the majority because it is the popular thing to do…What is the plan of salvation, “God’s plan, not mans”?Humbly;Johnnie

David;The thief on the Cross repented for his misdeeds that he performed…The Lord seeing that this man was truly sorry for the things that he had done, and willing to except his fate, and also believing that Jesus was the Saviour, had compassion on the man and saved his soul from an eternity of torment in hell…My God can do anything and when that man stepped into Paradise that day with the Lord just shows the awesome power of God, it also shows the mercy that God is willing to show unto His people…We as a people do not fully understand God, God does what God does…Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.And for those of you that are hung up on whether this man was baptized or not, was he or not?Humbly;Johnnie

david
on June 2, 2008 at 6:53 pm

johnnie,So what God requires is faith and repentance. Just as the thief showed on the cross.You are right, God can do anything. He is consistent. Jesus Christ the same yeterday, today and forever. he doesn’t save one person one way and then have a different plan for another person. It’s always been by grace, not by works of the flesh.Would you agree?

Jonathan
on June 2, 2008 at 11:32 pm

David,Yes, I believe Christ died for the whole world, not for the Jews only.Rev.5:9(ESV) says,”..and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.”Johnnie,I sense your sincerity my friend, but I must disagree with you on these issues. I am God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that I should walk in them (Eph.2:10). I was born again by the grace of God, given the faith to believe in Christ, granted repentance for my sin, and was baptized because my sins were forgiven.Johnnie, search the Scriptures for any evidence of there ever being a potential atonement. The atonement, by definition, cannot be a “potentiality”.To God be the glory!God Bless

david
on June 3, 2008 at 1:16 am

Jonathan,That was an unexpected response! I didn’t mean for the Jews only. I meant: Did Jesus die for the sins of the world, or the elect only?

Jonathan
on June 3, 2008 at 11:40 pm

David,I think I answered your question appropriately, by repeating what John was saying in 1John2:2. John said, “..and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.” Christ died for Jews and Gentiles.In my answer,I referenced Rev.5:9 to bring clarity to the word world. Sorry, if I confused you.Your expectations make me curious. What were you expecting in response to your question, and what has prompted you to ask these series of questions? Thanks.Oh! The answer to your second question would be, the elect only.To God be the glory

david
on June 4, 2008 at 2:04 pm

When you speak of some people believing in “potential” salvation, it made me suspect that you did not believe Jesus died for the “world” but for the elect only.But if you and I take this sidetrack too much further, we risk missing the greater blessing of open discussion with Johnnie. My apologies!

Jonathan
on June 4, 2008 at 4:07 pm

Johnnie,The written word of God says,1) “Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God,..(1John5:1)2) “For everyone that is born of God overcomes the world..” (1John5:4).3) The doctrine of the Trinity does not teach that there are three Gods. This doctrine is beyond the grasp of human reason alone, logic cannot fathom this truth about God. With that being said, I like the way B.B. Warfield defined it, “There is one only and true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence”. I have been taught to refer to this doctrine as the “Triunity”.I pray that my response is useful.To God be the glory!

Cypha
on June 5, 2008 at 2:30 am

Hey Jonathan, I just spent an hour reading this thread and noticed that on your May 6th post, you misspelled “their”.Josh, keep up the good work. I too am taking some heat for exposing Jesse Duplantis as a heretic. I would suggest that everyone posting on this topic read John Macarthur’s book “The True Wars”. Mt 24:11Soli Deo gloria!!

Mae
on June 5, 2008 at 6:39 am

Hey Cypha,Get a life.Hey everyone else,How about today, we focus on telling each person we meet about our Loving Savior, instead of calling out people when they are wrong, misled, deceitful and heretical?? Just a thought.

Jonathan;Let me ask you something, how can there be 3 co-equals in the trinity?Something made cannot be equal to God, God is Spirit, Jesus Christ was man, He was flesh…Also, they cannot be three persons as you suppose, God is eternal, the Holy Ghost is a Spirit, you cannot see a spirit…As I have said in an earlier comment, Believing is the first step unto salvation, you must believe that He is the Christ….What is your definition of born of God?What is grace? Grace is unmerited favor, grace is teaching, grace is instruction….Are we to throw away the books and scriptures before this, so that we can follow this one or two scriptures?Humbly;Johnnie

Jonathan
on June 5, 2008 at 10:20 am

Cypha,You made me look, and I know you didn’t read no book!1)Brother, No one posted on May 6th, but thanks for the help.2)I think the book you thought you read is called “The Truth Wars”. I haven’t had the opportunity to read that one, but if John MacArthur wrote it I would recommend it to anyone.Post Teneoras Lux

Jonathan
on June 5, 2008 at 11:05 am

Johnnie,Due to the volume of questions, and the risk of repeating the same answers, I want to refer you to our historic orthodox Christian beliefs.The “1689 Baptist Confession of Faith” and “The 1646 Westminster Confession of Faith”. These may be new to you, but would be very insightful to the questions you have. The Trinity, being born again, grace, and how man is brought to faith by the work of God can all be found in these Confessions.I do pray that you take the time to look at the work of our Protestant forefathers, who where led out of darkness and into light, and see how for we have gone astray from histric orthodox views. May God bless your reading.Post Teneoras Lux

Cypha
on June 5, 2008 at 11:15 am

Jonathan,You’re right, it was March 6th and it is “The Truth Wars”(and I actually read it). That’s what I get for posting at 1 in the morning. Lol.Mae, I’m going to assume that when you say we tell people about our Loving Savior, that we tell them them the truth about Him right? I would hope I would not mislead them.And if I was I would pray someone would tell me. When we share the gospel or teach a Sunday School class or Preach it is a very important task that we are carrying out, I would hope I was saying the right things. You seem to think it’s OK to mislead people or to be deceitful. You are quick to condemn those that want to share the TRUTH and expose false teachings and quick to defend those that are OBVIOUS hereitics(sp).As for the Bible, it is the Holy written word of God. Every verse means what God intended it to mean, not what we think it means. Every single verse should mean the same thing to everyone. It cannot mean 1 thing to you and another to me. If you read a verse and say well I think it means this, and I read the same verse and say well I think it means something else, one or both of us is wrong. It means what God intended it to mean period. That’s what makes it Truth. Otherwise we have confusion, and we all know that our God is not the author of confusion. But our enemy is, and that’s why it is so important to that we be careful who we listen to. And I thank Pastors like Josh, and John Macarthur that are willing to let people know what is really going on.As for “get a life”, I might be wrong but that didn’t sound very loving to me.Soli Deo Gloria

Johnnie,You lised “Water baptism” as a requirement to salvation. With that you cited the verse “Matt 28:19.”Why did Jesus say to Baptize in the “name” of the “Father, Son and Holy Spirit” if there is only Jesus?Also, if there is only Jesus (which is called modelism), then at Jesus’ Baptism, who was speaking from heaven, and how did the Holy Spirit come upon him?I am sincerely interested.

Jonathan;My doctrine is the Apostles doctrine…But I do thank you for the information…Mae;I would be more than happy to tell you that I love my God, my Saviour, Jesus Christ…I must tell you though, that I am a prisoner of Jesus Christ and when someone that is an authority over God’s children and they are leading them down the wrong path to hell by their false doctrine, I must speak out against that, it is a commandment from my Father to preach the gospel to every creature….I hope and pray that you have had a great day…Humbly;Johnnie

David;You asked me;Why did Jesus say to Baptize in the “name” of the “Father, Son and Holy Spirit(Ghost)” if there is only Jesus?First, Jesus Christ commanded to be baptized in the,”name”, not names…Second, The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are not names, but are titles of who Jesus Christ is…Jesus Christ is as the prophet Isaiah says;Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.Isa 9:6For, Having spoken of the glorious light, and joy, and victory of God’s people, he now proceeds to shew the ground of it. Us; Unto us Jews, of whom Christ was born, and to whom he was primarily sent.A child, The Messiah by the consent of interpreters, not only Christian, but Jewish: for so the ancient Hebrew doctors understood the place, and particularly the Chaldee paraphrast; although the latter Jews, out of opposition to Christ, wrest it to Hezekiah.Which extravagant conceit, as it hath no foundation in this or any other text of scripture, so it is fully confuted by the following titles, which are such as cannot without blasphemy and nonsense be ascribed to Hezekiah, nor indeed to any mere mortal man, as we shall see.Is born, Or, shall be born, as the prophets generally speak. The government; Of God’s people, to whom he is given. Shoulders; Upon him, or in his hands. He mentions shoulders, because great burdens are commonly laid upon men’s shoulders.His name, “This is not to be taken for a description of his name”, but of his glorious nature and qualities. Wonderful counsellor, And so Christ is, because he hath been the counsellor of his church in all ages, and the author and giver of all those excellent counsels delivered not only by the apostles, but also by the prophets, and hath gathered and enlarged, and preserved his church, by admirable counsels and methods of his providence, and, in a word, hath in him all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge, (Col 2:3).Mighty God, This title can agree to no man but Christ, who was God as well as man, to whom the title of God or Jehovah is given, both in the Old and New Testament. And it is a true observation, that this Hebrew word El is never used in the singular number, of any creature, but only of the almighty God. The Father, The Father of eternity. Who, though as man he was then unborn, yet was and is from everlasting to everlasting.Humbly;Johnnie

David;You asked me;***Also, if there is only Jesus (which is called modelism), then at Jesus’ Baptism, who was speaking from heaven, and how did the Holy Spirit come upon him?***Before I answer, I have a question for you…Can your God do anything?Jer 23:23 Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off?Jer 23:24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.Psa 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.Psa 139:9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;Psa 139:10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.Psa 139:11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.Psa 139:12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.1Ki 8:27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have built?2Ch 2:6 But who is able to build him a house, seeing the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain him? who am I then, that I should build him a house, save only to burn sacrifice before him?Isa 66:1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.God is multi-faceted, that does not mean that God is three separate beings, or persons as some believe…God is, “All knowing”, “All powerful,” “And Everywhere”…Example: my thoughts, I am a father, I am a son, and I walk in God’s spirit,(Holy Ghost)…I go to the store, how many are with me?Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:As I have mentioned before, Jesus Christ gave us examples as what we are to do as Christians…When Jesus Christ come up out of the water, and looked up to heaven and was praying, He was speaking to himself, showing us what we must do, the Dove, “The Holy Ghost”, came and filled Jesus Christ…The same thing will happen to us if we believe and have faith that it will happen…I wonder, have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed? The things that happened to Jesus Christ can happen to us if we obey His gospel…Humbly;Johnnie

Mae
on June 6, 2008 at 6:47 am

Hey David,After shipping my kids away to summer day camp yesterday, I went to the grocery store, and I helped the woman in front of me who was short about $8. I then told her not to protest, that this is what God wanted me to do. She asked me to pray for her situation, I did, I invited her to church and I’m picking her up this Sunday a.m. She said she didn’t think anyone cared…I then came home, managed my meager home business, cleaned a little for the Glory of the Lord!!Next I went and volunteered at my local soup kitchen-prayed and shared Scripture with several…went and volunteered at my kids summer camp in the middle school area-what a challenge-but so rewarding-I cant believe they had a hard time getting volunteers for this age group! :)Next I came home with my kids, played on the slip n slide with some neighbors-they are really having a difficult time with finances, their marriage, custody issues with exes, etc. My husband and I took a dessert down there and tried to minister to their hurt and worries.One weekend a month I volunteer with a crisis pregnancy hotline. Next week is VBS and our goal is 1000 kids! I work with my church bus ministry. These are practical ways to share Christ’s love…it isn’t hard, it isn’t dramatic…it’s love…faith, hope, charity, and ultimately love.That was my day yesterday–nothing extraordinary-just a normal day in my life where I focus on loving others that I come into contact with. This is what I believe Jesus wants me to do. I could do more, could do better I’m sure…If anyone feels lead to call out false doctrine, to judge other’s motivations, etc, go ahead…I believe our Savior and the world we are visiting would be better served with more Love.James 1:27Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

Christine
on June 6, 2008 at 12:00 pm

Wow, Mae…I really don’t know what to say. Either you are another Mother Theresa or you have much more free time on your hands than I do. It’s really hard to believe that you do all of this on a daily basis. I mean, I’m sure that your heart is in the right place, but your story is a little unbelievable.By the way, what does this have to do with Joyce Meyer?

david
on June 6, 2008 at 12:44 pm

“…and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.” James 1:27that’s what the faith teachers have done, polluted themselves with the world.

david
on June 6, 2008 at 12:46 pm

Christine,Mae was answering my question. She asked us all to try and show Christ, I wondered if she took the challenge herself. She did.

david
on June 6, 2008 at 12:55 pm

Johnnie,“Second, The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are not names, but are titles of who Jesus Christ is…”–When Jesus prayed, who was he praying to? If the names are nothing more than titles, then why does Jesus pray to one of the titles?–When Jesus was on earth, who was in heaven?–Who sent Jesus?–If Jesus IS the father, how could he say “My God my God why have you forsaken me?”–If Jesus is the father, who raised Jesus from the dead? The new Testament says that the Father raised Christ from the dead.

Mae
on June 6, 2008 at 4:04 pm

oh come on Christine. Just as I said earlier, you can know someone by their fruits. I am not tooting my own ohrn, but I know people are watching me and try to show them Jesus daily. You don’t have to believe me, I play for an audience of One. Frankly, your remark is as pompass as some others I’ve read here, and that surprises me. I am not trying to be like a nun, jst like Jesus. Honestly….rolling eyes now…

David;I gave you scripture about Jesus claiming to be the Father, you must have missed it….Who is the Spirit inside of Jesus?Yes, exactly, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are titles like I said, but, they are not His name…We are to be baptized in the name..”What name”? In the name of Jesus Christ, there is no other name under heaven in which we can be saved by…David, I do not know you, so I am only guessing, but when you walk into a store or out in your front yard and a friend sees you and he/she calls out to you, do they call you father, do they call you son, do they call you husband, No, of course not, they call you by your name…The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are Jesus Christ, it is in your bible…God is spirit, which is the invisible God because we cannot see a spirit…Jesus Christ is the visible God, flesh, something we can see…Humbly;Johnnie

Johnnie,I understand the argument about the “names” father son and spirit being “titles.”1. Baptism of Jesus: All three are present at once.But I don’t see how that works with the Baptism of Jesus. At that time we see three acting at once in the same period of time. The Father is in heaven, the Son is on earth, the Spirit is descending.2. God uses relational terms with himself.The Father is in heaven speaking “this is my son.” Now this is not a title, this is a term of relationship between themselves. I might be called “son” by some people and “father” by my children… but I don’t call myself “son” or “father.” But Jesus called God “father” and the father called him “son.” In the set up you have presented it seems like any relationship between father and son is impossible since they are strictly the exact same person.3. Looking at your statement:”God is spirit, which is invisible God because we cannot see a spirit…””Jesus is the visible God, flesh, something we can see…”Clarify for me: When Jesus is on earth incarnate, who is in heaven that he is praying to? Himself? DId he divide himself and send part of himself to earth and leave part of himelf in heaven?Thank you for your patience. I appreciate the dialogue.

David;I also appreciate speaking with you about our God and Saviour…1) God is Spirit..2) The Holy Ghost is Spirit,(God)..3) Jesus Christ was flesh,(The Holy Ghost was Jesus Christ’s Father)…God came and manifested himself in the flesh because He needed a body that was sinless and able to take on the sins of the world…Okay, John the Baptist baptized Jesus in the river Jordan, Jesus came up out of the water and the heavens were open unto Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a Dove

and lighting upon Him..The Dove is God’s spirit, (the Holy Ghost) coming down from heaven…Luke 3:22So, if God’s spirit came down from heaven, the there are not two…Then, And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Jesus being flesh was filled with God’s spirit, that makes Him and the Father one, just as it says in the book of:John 10:30 I and my Father are one.The voice from heaven was God and He was talking to Jesus the man, God was also talking to himself because He also was on the inside of Jesus…God can and was in two places at once…There is no other God, neither before nor after…Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.Okay, Jesus the man was flesh, therefore God called Him His Son, the Son of God, that does not mean that there are two or three persons…Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.Isa 43:3 For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Savior: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior.Isa 43:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;I know that this might not make much sense to you, but it is true…Humbly;Johnnie

David;Here is another scripture that lets us know that God does council with His own will…Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:God doesn’t just council in some things, but all things that He does….Not by consulting his creatures, or conforming to their views, but by his own views of what is proper and right. We are not to suppose that this is by “mere” will, as if it were arbitrary, or that he determines anything without good reason.The meaning is, that his purpose is determined by what “he” views to be right, and without consulting his creatures or conforming to their views. His dealings often seem to us to be arbitrary.We are incapable of perceiving the reasons of what he does. He makes those his friends who we should have supposed would have been the last to have become Christians. He leaves those who seem to us to be on the borders of the kingdom, and they remain unmoved and unaffected.But we are not thence to suppose that he is arbitrary. In every instance, we are to believe that there is a good reason for what he does, and one which we may be permitted yet to see, and in which we shall wholly acquiesce.Of him who worketh all things, Of God, the universal agent. The affirmation here is not merely that God accomplishes the designs of salvation according to the counsel of his own will, but that “he does everything.”His agency is not confined to one thing, or to one class of objects. Every object and event is under his control, and is in accordance with his eternal plan.Have a great day…Thanks for our continuing conversations about God…Every time I think I know something about God, I find out how much that I do not know, and it fuels my desire to know more about him…I firmly believe that God designed the bible in a way that man could never know all things about Him…I believe that God knew if man was to know all things, man would become bored or uninterested and lose that desire to know and to understand God more, it is just my opinion though…Humbly;Johnnie

david
on June 9, 2008 at 2:28 pm

Johnnie,I agree that God does not have to conform to the creatures view of Him. The creatures should accept the revelation God has given us of himself.I believe God has clearly revealed himself as “father” “son” and “spirit.”When Jesus says “I am in the Father” refers to there being something more of the father than Jesus alone. Jesus is all God, but he’s not all there is to God.Thank you for the sweet spirit you bring.

Mae
on June 9, 2008 at 5:32 pm

so, my question is a simple one.here we have two Godly men, who both seek Him daily and KNOW the Scripture. who among us will call out the heretic from this pair? obviously one is wrong-one of you is interpreting Scripture wrongly, so one of you is a heretic and false prophet, just like you’ve called joyce meyer. who is wrong? who is right? who here will “decide” one of these men is wrong like has been decided about so many other pastors/preachers/teachers that are “wrong”?????

Mae,Judge me by the same standard I ask you to judge joyce meyer or any other teacher by: The Scripures. If you can’t do that, then pray for discernment. If you ask for wisdom, James says God will give it.

Mae
on June 10, 2008 at 6:48 am

i’m not going to judge either of you, or joyce meyer. i know what i believe and i don’t have to or want to convince you that my way is the way-God’s way is The way, and inconsistencies in the way two believers interpret or apply Scripture is nothing to get up in arms about…this just proves the point i was trying to make a while back–authorial intent is not always clear, and different opeoople can apply the exact same verses in completely different ways…God will give wisdom to people who seek God concerning joyce meyer, joel osteen, and a slew of others who have been called out on this site. but in that case, do you think God won’t guide the people who are discipled by these teachers? sure He will, but you still feel the need to call them out as heretics. it doesn’t make sense.

Mae;Have you ever listen to what these false teachers preach?They do not preach the gospel of Christ…Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.They are more than heretics, they are accursed…If you choose to believe the lies that they preach, that is your choice, but it is a commandment from my God to preach the gospel of Christ, I can back up what I preach with the word of God…Humbly;Johnnie

David;Jesus Christ is, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, the bible says so…The word is in the singular, the “name”, not names..Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost is the final name of the one true God…It affirms:1) That God is one…2) That he subsists in a personality which is threefold, indicated by relationship as Father and Son; by a mode of being as Spirit; and by the different parts taken by the Godhead in manifestation and in the work of redemption, (John 3:5,6 (Spirit)), 16,17 (Father and Son)…In (Matthew 3:16,17; Mark 1:10,11; Luke 3:21,22), the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost, are in manifestation together…3) The conjunction in one name of the Three affirms oneness of substance…See O.T. Names of God: (Genesis 1:1; 2:4; 14:18; 15:2, 17:1, 21:33, 1 Samuel 1:3; Malachi 3:18)…See “Lord”, Matthew 8:2; “Word” (Logos), John 1:1; “Holy Ghost,” Acts 2:4.. See “Christ, deity of,” John 20:28…****Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.****All the Godhead is in, Jesus Christ, so there cannot be more than one…The Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost is who Jesus Christ is…Also, there cannot be three co-equals, because the Son is begotten, something created is not eternal, therefore, cannot be equal to God, and the Holy Ghost is God’s Spirit…I walk in God’s spirit, but there is only one of me, not two, not three…Humbly;Johnnie

Christine
on June 10, 2008 at 10:55 am

Well, since Mae seems unwilling to judge anyone…I’m not entirely sure why…but whatever…David-You seem to know what you are talking about. However, I am concerned about how you go about things. I never heard Jesus himself call out people who were working for Him with good motivations as false prophets. I know some of the disciples did, but not Jesus himself. He was much harder on those who were working in the name of religion with prideful, selfish motivations. He called them dogs, etc. Is it necessary to crucify a woman because of a difference in teaching? Is your biggest problem with her that she is a woman pastor or that she is teaching something contrary to what you believe. Now, I don’t believe that women should be pastors, so don’t go accusing me not believing what the Bible says. I’m just curious to know what your true problem is.Johnnie-In the spirit of all previous posts regarding heretics and false prophets, you fit the bill my friend. You are misapplying scripture when it comes to baptism. You said that God saved the thief on the cross was saved without being baptized, but I and everyone else have to be baptized to be saved. How does that fit into God’s plan? Either I am very confused about what the Bible says or you are wrong.Mae-I think you have good motivations, but you seem to have gotten a hold of some liberal ideas. Did you learn these at your “major Baptist” Christian University? I hope not. It would be a true shame if there was a university teaching young people these liberal ideas.

david
on June 10, 2008 at 12:46 pm

Hi Christine,My problem with Joyce has nothing to do with her being a woman. I think women in ministry is a local church issue.My problem is with her views on spiritual things, and when she seems to just make stuff up about the Bible. Like Jesus going to hell to pay for sin. And her connections to Word of Faith movement are scary.Jesus had no patience with those who claimed to believe but twisted the Scriptures to work for them (Scribes and Pharisees).My real concern is when Believers think everyones okay. It doesn’t matter what we believe — about major doctrinal issues. that does matter, becuase of the Scripture Johnnie cited. (Gal. 1:8-9)I do not believe I actually called Joyce a false prophet. She does have a view of the atonement that is not compatable with Scripture.I think you assume I have a problem with women. I honestly do not. Our church is mostly Marine/Navy — and the men are all at war. Guess who serves in the church…

david
on June 10, 2008 at 12:56 pm

“but you still feel the need to call them out as heretics”Mae,did I use the word “false prophet” “heretics”? Stop labeling what I believe. I believe the Scriptures are true, and when I match waht the teachers you listed say against the Bible, they fall short. Call that what you want.Somewhere you have gotten a very bad view of what “judging” means. When Jesus says not to judge, he is not saying not to discern. In fact, we are to rightly divide the Word of God.Ancient Israel also didn’t want to stand for one clear true teaching. YHWH was okay, but so was Molech. You might look at Isaiah 7:9. Also, Joshua took a pretty clear stand on what he believed. You can’t just delcare that everything is of the Lord, and we don’t have to judge. or, that we don’t have to speak out when someone misrepresents the God we serve.Mae, “God will give wisdom to people who seek God concerning joyce meyer, joel osteen, and a slew of others who have been called out on this site.”Why are you so afriad to simply use the Scriptures? To use the wisdom God has already given. You are asking God for a new word of wisdom when the original Scriptures will do just fine.

david
on June 10, 2008 at 1:00 pm

Johnnie,”Also, there cannot be three co-equals, because the Son is begotten, something created is not eternal, therefore, cannot be equal to God, and the Holy Ghost is God’s Spirit…”An early church heresy came up about that teaching, saying that Jesus was created. actually what JW’s still teach. I am not suggesting that Jesus is created. However, Hebrews does say that his body was created. “But a body you made for me…” (Hebrews 10)You illustrated your position by saying that you can be a father, teacher and a son, all at the same time. But you can’t be your own father. Jesus called God “Father” indicating there was a relationship between himself and the Father.

Christine;The thief on the Cross was under the law, and what I said is, we do not know whether he was baptized or not, however, it really does not matter…The Lord was not yet glorified…On the other hand, we live in the new dispensation, we are to follow the plan of salvation that God has commanded us to follow…1) believe.2) Repent.3) baptize In Jesus name.4) Receive the gift of the Holy Ghost…In other words; The death, burial, and resurrection…Call me what you will, I follow what the Apostles preached, not some man made doctrine that you seem to follow…Humbly;Johnnie

David;We as humans cannot be in more than one place at a time…I walk in God’s Spirit, but there is only one of me…God is multi faceted….He can be in more than one place at once, He is omnipresent,(everywhere)…Jer 23:23 Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off?Jer 23:24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.Psa 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.Psa 139:9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;Psa 139:10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.Psa 139:11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.Psa 139:12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.1Ki 8:27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have built?2Ch 2:6 But who is able to build him a house, seeing the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain him? who am I then, that I should build him a house, save only to burn sacrifice before him?Isa 66:1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?Humbly;Johnnie

david
on June 11, 2008 at 2:41 pm

You’re right, God can be in more than one place at a time. When God became flesh, he limited himself. Remember, Jesus “humbled himself” and did not see equality with God something to be grasped. (Philippians 2)When Christ came to earth he gave up the privilages of being God, not the essence of the person of God. God’s power or abilities don’t make him God any more than our ability to walk makes us human. Jesus gave up: Power, knowledge, omnipresence and limited himself to a human body.this is important. When Jesus tells us to walk as he did, we can be sure he didn’t “cheat.” Wouldn’t it be unfair if Jesus said, “Live like me, but I’m using powers you don’t have available to you.” He relied on the same thing we do: The Holy Spirit.Even the miracles Jesus did were not from himself, they were from the Father. Again, we a relationship within the Godhead. I don’t call myself father. Nor do I empty myself of strength hoping to fill myself with my strength. If I empty myself, there must be another to fill me up.

david
on June 11, 2008 at 4:38 pm

Mae,”so, my question is a simple one.here we have two Godly men, who both seek Him daily and KNOW the Scripture. who among us will call out the heretic from this pair? obviously one is wrong-one of you is interpreting Scripture wrongly, so one of you is a heretic and false prophet, just like you’ve called joyce meyer. who is wrong? who is right? who here will “decide” one of these men is wrong like has been decided about so many other pastors/preachers/teachers that are “wrong”?????”That is a stunning statement. Why do you have to wonder how we know when Scirpture is being interpreted wrongly? Why would you ever look for a person to call someone out, instead of simply examining the Scirptures and seeing for yourself what God has said.Which of these is Scriptural:1. There is only Jesus, not a trinity. We msut be baptized in Jesus name, and if we are not baptized we will suffer eternal death.Or2. God expresses himself in three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. At a specific point in time God became incarnate and paid for our sins ON THE CROSS. He calls men to repent and express their repentance in Baptism as a symbol of thier faith.You can’t examine those two views and know which is true by Scirpture? You need to call on Josh or Christine or Jonathan or someone out there to call one of us out?

from Africa
on July 3, 2008 at 10:09 am

This my 1st time to visit this page, but am really surprised to see how all of you arguing on the scriptures,plz preach the gospel of Jesus Christ to the lost and stop arguing one another. no one is holy on this earth. and for your information we’re no longer worship the false gods in Africa, Jesus set us free, instead keep on praying for the US and Europe for the immoral we’re watching on TV these days, like gay marriage,lesbian,youth addicted to Drugs,sex…, and try to reach also the Europe because the Gospel is like forgotten there, reach China, Arab countries… and let’s all of us take the world to JESUS CHRIST.With love

david
on July 3, 2008 at 12:27 pm

Most respectfully, those things you listed can only be done through the true Gospel of Jesus. Paul found the truth of the Gospel worth arguing about. False teachers are a threat to America’s soul, and now these false teachers have been given a worldwide stage.

tibor
on July 24, 2008 at 3:06 pm

to JohnnieNow you meant that to be born of water, means water baptism in John 3:5, but let me show you thru scripture,that it means sosmething else:Joh 15:3 Already ye are clean because of the word which I have spoken unto you.1Pe 1:23 having been begotten again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which liveth and abideth.Rom 10:17 So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.So as you see,to be born of water,means simply of coming to the saving faith of Jesus Christ based on His sacrifice on the cross and His ressurection from the dead.The Word of God changes people’s lives when it is preached thru the power or in the power of the Holy Spirit,which convinces unbelievers of their sins.So baptism is the outward witness of those who have been already saved to the world and an obedient step for what Jesus has called us to do.To the view that many FaithWordMovement so called preacher teach about the atoning work of Christ on the cross, is simply unbelievable.Why? I can tell you thru a Scripture that Jesus didn’t go to hell,in order to pay our sins there,not speaking of being tortured there.You were talking about the one crucified next to Christ,if He was saved without being baptized.YESSS!the big issue is there,that Jesus said,now watch this:Luk 23:43 And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, Today you will be with Me in Paradise.This teaches us that Jesus didn’t go to the hell to pay there for our sins,he went directly to God,I mean His Spirit went directly to God’s presence. I just don’t understand how so called preachermatics missuse the Word of the Living God.Many say,that the Bible can be interpreted in various ways,no it can’t be.Every verse or Bible passage has only ONE interpretation but many applications.Bible can be interpreted thru the Bible and no other way as thru the Bible itself.The Bible is complete.All we need to godliness is in the Scripture,God revealed everything we need for this life as His followers and His children.I think, that to warn believers from false doctrine and teachers is the soul of not just the new testament but the old testament,too.Just look at the prophets,how did they warned the people of Israel to turn away from false teachers or idolatry,it’s allways a warning,and today you can’t tell them,that they teach false doctrine, it’s unloving or judging they say.But the opposite is,if we don’t warn them, it’s our guilt.Please don’t quit studying your Bible,it is the Truth of God of Himself and also the truth of the fallen humanity and its cure thru His Son Jesus Christ,by the work finished on the cross.God’s written Word will stand forever,needs no new revelation,all He had revealed is in His Word,and as I’ve already said it is COMPLETE!Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, restoring the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.Psa 19:8 The precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.Psa 19:9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true, and righteous altogether.Psa 19:10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.Psa 19:11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: in keeping of them there is great reward.May God bless you

edward smith
on November 15, 2008 at 12:44 am

I am quite sure that God did not intend for these Profits to be His messengers.They ignore every aspect of Christs teachings that conflict with their desires for greater amounts of money and power.What would Joyce Meyers say about “it’s easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven”? Also the fact that they prey upon the weakest members of the community, people who for whatever reason are searching for hope and these charlatans offer it….for a price.

edward smith
on November 15, 2008 at 12:50 am

Who’s arguing scripture? Would you defend these profiteers such as Meyer,Copeland,the clownish Hinn and the ironically named Creflo Dollar?

edward smith
on November 15, 2008 at 12:52 am

Falling short? They’re stealing money from the weak.Period.

Ken
on December 31, 2008 at 7:39 pm

Jesus and His apostles were accused of being false prophets and teachers. The religious authorities of the day were quick criticize and yes justify their persecutions of believers. The broad sweeping exagerated accusations and claim to be quite sure about God’s intentions are troubling to say the least. It is one thing to disagree about convictions and minor points of doctrine and another call a fellow Christian a false prophet. Joyce does teach and preach the gospel of Christ, she is a true believer and has led many to Christ. Quite possibly many more than anyone posting or sponsoring this site. Christ himself warned about those who are focused on getting the sliver out someones eye, but himself has a beam in his own eye.Please stop destroying the unity that Christ himself is looking for in His Bride the Church. None of us are perfect, therefore be careful about what you are doing. God defends those who are actively winning souls and strengthening them in the faith.

Mike
on April 5, 2009 at 10:20 am

I am a Born again Christian. I have studdied joel Olsteen. and have concluded He is in fact a heratic. good work Josh. Your 100% correct.MikeIraq War Veteran. (US Army)

Joey VanDeusen
on June 6, 2009 at 7:38 pm

Listening to your comments on Joyce Meyer and I agree with your comments regarding her teaching. I do however, disagree with one of your statements. In 2 Cor. 5:21 Paul writes, (KJV) “For He hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.” I’m not desiring to split hairs, only to say that the scriptures do indicate that Jesus was indeed our “sin offering” yet something more in that He was made to be the object of God’s (Father) wrath (sin) while NOT becoming a sinful man. I agree fully that our sin (singular) He bore and was thus, our sin offering. But, the Holy Spirit led Paul to say something more with his (Paul’s) verbage. “He hath made” (aorist, active, indicative) “sin” (noun, singular). I understand that the “to be” is not there, but added to aid the reader in understanding. My conclusion: Jesus was /(is, as in his once for all sacrifice) our sin offering; he was made to be (made here does not indicate resistance, rather purpose) sin; result – we might become the righteousness of God in Him.Thanks for standing for the Word. Blessings

Kami
on November 9, 2009 at 1:05 am

I am thankful for people like Joyce Meyer who walks the walk and helps thousands and more around the world, not by her own doing, but by the grace and strength of Jesus Christ, in whom she gives credit. I find it amazing that people are so concerned about every detail about Joyce says, and somehow ignore what she Does; feed the hunger, build medical care centers and housing, help women and children out of sex slavery, bringing children soldiers out imprisonment, comfort the sick and dying of AIDS, all the while sharing the love of Christ. Thank God for imperfect people like Joyce who knows she needs God and only through him all she does is possible. If more people were out there walking the walk of Jesus and showing his love, instead of arguing over doctrine, more souls would be coming to God every day. It is a luxury to be able to bicker about such things, when there are people who have never had the chance to hear of Jesus Christ. It’s sad to come across a website like this and see precious time being wasted fighting with each other. I thank God that when it comes time, what I say, do & what’s in my heart is between me and God. He decides.

Kami,The reason people (like myself) are intensely concerned with what Joyce says is because being a Christian is not just about what you do, but who you are inside! The doctrine you adhere to reveals who you really are. Joyce has some very strange and disturbing doctrine that does not square with Holy Scripture. Much of her teaching is centered in the health, wealth, and prosperity genre. That type of teaching teaches people to embrace health and wealth as their treasure in life while using Jesus as a mere ticket to their goals. Jesus is not a ticket. He is the treasure. We are not promised health, wealth, and prosperity in this life.Pastor Josh Buice

Mae
on November 10, 2009 at 7:18 am

“The doctrine you adhere to reveals who you really are.”NO! Actions speak much louder than words. Because of Jesus’ Works we know Who He Was and Who He Is. What He DID saved us. What we DO will lead others to Christ.

david
on November 11, 2009 at 3:49 am

Josh: “Jesus is not a ticket. He is the treasure.”wonderful.

Joe
on January 18, 2010 at 4:13 am

Mea why not go to Jesus your self and ask him for the Truth?We Gloryfy a living God dont we?The thing is we always run to flesh that is so wrong!Remeber we are now alive spiritually in Christ,not in flesh.Thats why Jesus could not become sin it self.Why would Jesus Go to the cross if he Knew that he would die and go to hell for 3days and nights for us?We are not that special,that God would seas to exist.Remember Jesus is in fact God.He Knew we were sold to sin like slaves.Thats why some people say why would we have a God that puts sin on the earth and the send us to hell for it.God knows this thinking he created us.So he created the commandments so that we would know what sin is and stay away from it.Well we could not.We were flesh,so flesh is sin it self.if Jesus never had sin that means that he died on the cross without sin.We still have sin,dont you sin somtimes?and know about it?so how did Jesus the Become sin and die.if Sin is still around?No Jesus died so that God can see us as paid in full. cos we are in Christ and Christ are in us.so when we commit a sin Gosd sees Christ and says ok thats not how he is he loves me and he realy what to do good.But remember God knows the heart.So i say learn from the Holy Spirit rather from flesh.Jesus did say thet he leaves the Spirit to comfort us.so dont run to other people for comfort got to God

Neil
on March 12, 2010 at 9:02 pm

I am so busy trying to live the word that unless something is VISIBLY DETRIMENTAL to Christ’s teachings – in what is preached – I am not keen to sit in judgement over my fellowmen, preachers or lay people for expressing their interpretations of Bible. Judge not that ye not be judged and word about the removing the log in one’s own eye are enough to strike Godly fear in me. Attacks on fellow preachers for items you ‘discern’ as offensive if hardly living the word. People will read us long before they read the Good Book and very long before they read ‘discerning’ newslines. Bless you.

Jaco
on March 21, 2010 at 7:27 am

I think you guise are morons, I will ask for forgiveness after I mailed this)I also thought like you did but the grace of the father set me free.I don’t see you preach the love that the sad – that will be the sighn that that the world will know you are my disciples.If I am in the world not serving Christ, I would not become a christian because of youI know she will be taking many souls to Christ our redeemerYour Institution’s name is ” Delivered By Grace” but you don’t have the foggiest idea who grace is yes not what but who – He is Jesus Christ HimselfYou institutionalized & categorized grace – surprise sunrise – He the almighty graceful JESUS our Christ & Master don’t fit in your BoxLook behind you is ther any fruit & if there is what is it? LOVE or HATE & Suspicion?I rest my case

Thomas Hockaday
on March 28, 2010 at 2:03 pm

The church is called the pillar of truth, Jesus promisedus the Spirit of Truth to guide us, He said that if we continue in His Word we shall know the truth and the truth shall set us free. The Bible speaks of false prophets, false brethren and even those who preac “another Jesus” or a perverted gospel. We are even warned that God is going to send the world a “strong delusion” because they did not love the truth. Yet whenever someone exposes these lies, they always get attacked. Why is that?

N
on April 29, 2010 at 10:29 pm

I never gave a dime to Joyce Meyers yet I have been listening to her for over a year and when I asked for help, I got free books and CD’s. I am no longer suicidal, cleaning my home and planning to return to school.I dont know how many other churches I went to crying for help and even being sexual seduced by several men in positions of leadership.The word does not return void, she got it to me and it is working. She aint perfect, she aint God, she does not claim to be, but she never tried to get me into bed and never took my money. She teaches the word and elevates it above all else. That is the way it is supposed to be.

I have also received books and magazines from Joyce without sending her a penny. They have been valuable resources in my walk with the Lord. She has helped me develop a relationship with God. She's not perfect, no one is. Joyce is busy building people up in faith and she is fruitful and Gods anointing is on her life.If there is any perfect preacher I would like to know who they are. Seriously. Is there ANY one on the face of this earth that has never preached an incorrect message or hurt any one etc. etc.? No, I dont think so. There isnt a SINGLE preacher on earth that has not sinned and failed.If any one has an issue with a fellow christian they should approach that person and put their views forward. I have just about had it with those who instead of spending valuable time evangelizing and trying to get lost souls to Christ they're battering others within the body.

John
on June 30, 2010 at 7:27 pm

As a Christian shouldn't you be more concerned about spreading the Gospel then you are with exposing a pastor that doesn't even know you exist? If you don't agree with Joyce Meyer then just turn the channel, know one makes you listen to her. I am sure you congregation would benefit greatly if you focused on teaching them how to live the life of Christ instead of attempting to tear down people God has raised up.

Lindi Ratshefola
on November 18, 2010 at 7:41 am

Joyce teachings and preaching is all i want i in my life. i have a good understanding of who God is and who i am in Christ.Joyce carry on mummy you are a blessing. my church helps me less than you do i am feeding my spirit more with you than my church. I love you so much i am a blessing to others today because of you.keep on keeping on the devil must shut up!

Who ever said whatever he/she said about Joyce needs help.Who are you to judge? Mummy forgive them they know not what they’re doing. Persecution is part of your calling,be strong, be courageous.Keep on keeping on doing the works of Jesus Christ God bless u

John S.
on March 7, 2011 at 2:30 pm

Can anyone show me one verse in the Bible where God calls a woman to preach or pastor? Jesus had 12 disciples, all men, one of which was a devil. Women can teach other women and children but are to be in subjection with all authority. I Cor.14:34,35, says, “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home, for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.”

Stephnie
on April 1, 2011 at 10:50 am

Thank you for publishing the TRUTH about Joyce Meyer. So many women in this country are DECEIVED by her false doctrine, and we should pray that God would open the eyes of the people so that they can see the Truth clearly. The work of God through Christ WAS FINISHED on the cross….hence, Jesus’ statement, “It is finished!”

Sonia
on April 14, 2011 at 5:17 am

Dear readers,Jealousy is a Disease, and it is not Godly.Joyce Meyer is a great woman of God, so Christians do not let yourself be deceive by what others says about her, they are plague by jealous and envy.God bless you all

Sonia – I am not jealous of Joyce. She may do great things for people, but her doctrine is twisted and it has perverted the sacred text of the Bible. Therefore, whether or not it is on purpose with a covert agenda I can’t comment – but I do know that her doctrine is not sound. That is the reason I posted this article several years ago.

Ryan
on January 4, 2012 at 2:48 pm

Rev Josh you know you are jealous of Joyce. lol Appearing on TBN and telling people the act of receiving is the same as receipting(i have the video)..in lamens terms, you have to give to their so called ministry in order to get back from God such as a miracle or promotion or whatever. Maybe the same riches as they have? SMH. If people would actually wake up and use their God given brains they could see the big UGLY picture. It’s no different than a Ponzi Scheme. God didnt make them rich, donations from blind people did. If you are on TV broadcasting into millions of homes and declaring that Receiving is the same as Receipting(cashing in from your past $$ donation) yea i would be rich too. So what, she has done marvelous things well so has Brad Pitt and Angelonie Pitt and most of Hollywood out gives all the televangelists.. refer to Matthew 7:22-23. js.

Amina
on September 23, 2012 at 10:22 am

It is not about jealousy. It’s about the Word of God and what the Bible says

K Carlson
on May 6, 2012 at 8:08 am

Good article. Of course since God is sovereign, it is correct to say that God has allowed Joyce to have the wealth that she has. However, it does not mean that her teachings are approved by God. The test isn’t wealth, it is scriptural alignment!

Steve
on June 21, 2012 at 3:21 pm

Oh dear me! The founders of the US set sail from these shores in search of a new land where they could exercise freedom of conscience free from the attention of the heretic hunters in the religious establishments of the old world. It’s sad to see that history has caught up with you. Some of this debate has the taste and smell of the early quarrels over the correct analogy for the mingling of divine and human in the personality of Jesus – water and oil or water and wine. Isn’t it possible to accept that some things were not explained to us in the manner of an instruction manual. Presumably because it’s none of our business or beyond our understanding. Isn’t it possible to hold honest differences of opinion on the basis that if it wasn’t spelled out in sufficient detail for the meanest 1st century serf to understand – and assuming that God is not elitist – then that detail of belief isn’t actually important. There is a lot of evidence of the application of human logic to Scripture to try to decipher something meaningful but we make the assumption that such exercises are valid when dealing with an omnipotent, omniscient eternal being.

As Tiny Tim said “God bless us, every one”

Amina
on September 23, 2012 at 10:17 am

Amen pastor. I’m glad that someone dares to tell the truth. Pastors and preachers HAVE to preach about sin, holiness and hell. Joyce Meyer doesn’t preach about holiness. Nobody can see God without holiness. Jesus set us free, amen, But we Have to Walk On the narrow way and not live, dress and act like the world.
I like preachers who tell the TRUTH!! Time’s running out. Be blessed in Jesus name

Matthew 6:24-25
Matthew 7:13-23

Ken
on November 21, 2012 at 11:18 am

I agree most in part with Steve from June 21, but also want to add that a lot of these types of sites bring to mind the Pharisees and other religious figures of Jesus’s time. They knew the Law front & back, up and down and when Jesus came into the picture, his teachings were called into question and he was even called a Blasphemer (Matthew 9:3), criticized for associating with sinners (Matthew 9:11) and even accused in being in the league with the devil (Matthew 9:34). The spiritual leaders of the time were great for hiding behind the law and identifying everyone’s sin, yet Jesus walked in Grace & showed forgiveness & Mercy in everything he did and for that he paid the ultimate price death to purchase our sin.

We are all sinners and that includes the religous leaders of our churches, for as is said in 1 John 1:8 “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”. I find it interesting how many of these religious types feel they are such an authority on the bible yet fail to follow it themselves or the scripture of Matthew 7:1-5 (which is part of several sections in the bible I call my ways to live) indicates “Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and; behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.” Yet this website stands in stark contrast to this very scripture, Please note, to stand in judgment of others in place of God is not serving God and perhaps might be taken to an even worse sin that it would appear you are venturing into the world of idolatry, thinking you are GOD and have the right to judge others.

Quite the contrast of what Jesus taught love and even brought us a new commandment with “a new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another” (John 13:34). It is also written in 1 Corinthians 13:1-7 “If I speak with human eloquence and angelic ecstasy but don’t love, I’m nothing but the creaking of a rusty gate. If I speak God’s Word with power, revealing all his mysteries and making everything plain as day, and if I have faith that says to a mountain, “Jump,” and it jumps, but I don’t love, I’m nothing. If I give everything I own to the poor and even go to the stake to be burned as a martyr, but I don’t love, I’ve gotten nowhere. So, no matter what I say, what I believe, and what I do, I’m bankrupt without love.”

Right now your website may be speaking God’s Word with power, revealing all his mysteries and making everything plain as day, but I see no love… And this isn’t obeying the one commandment that Jesus gave us.

CHERIE
on January 3, 2013 at 5:29 am

Does Joyce Meyers threaten you as a person, as a man that you contend with her so much? Joyce’s presentation of the scriptures in a practical every day way has led me back to Jesus and helped me find joy.

You must be very frightened of her. By the way, Timothy was a disciple of Jesus, not Jesus himself, what do you think Jesus have to say of your condemnation of Joyce?

You are the false prophet.

Faithless
on February 7, 2013 at 11:38 am

And so, in an effort to be right, in an effort to “expose false prophets”, many more were lost a long the way, as they noted, yet again, the hypocrites of the Christian faith, arguing amongst themselves. Keep arguing faithful ones, bar the doors of heaven against us, even as you do.

Sipho
on February 12, 2013 at 1:12 am

Jesus once said to those who believed in him in the book of John, ” IF you remain in my words, you will know the truth and the truth shall set you free”. So believing in the Lord Jesus without remaining in his word by speaking and doing His word will not make you know the truth. So how can you even believe that the message of this woman Joyce is evil when you don’t know the truth?…And deceived people loving to be deceived always quote scriptures that need to be explained, even when there’s clear scriptures without any need of explanation. e.g You quote Aquila and Priscilla and the prophet Joel when there’s CLEAR scripture about women forbidden to preach…In Genesis God said to the woman “your husband will RULE over you”, 1 Corinthians 14.34 It is not pemitted for them to speak in the congregation but to keep silent and 1Timothy2.11…All the Holy churches of God agree to all this…Why bring curses upon yourselves with this foolishness? Did the word of God come from you?…

Charles Keith
on February 25, 2013 at 11:21 am

What I hv seen here is people idolate Joyce Meyer. Joyce Meyer teach about Joyful while Jesus talked about sword. I know Joyce Meyer talked about how to live everyday life with joyful to God. But I don’t want to receive 100% her method. I’m not idolaze her. Iy is clear that Jesus come to save HIS sheep from God wrath. All people surely die, vanish on the hell. But Jesus come to save people from this wrath. It is like Jesus come to Lot and say this city will be destroyed but yet I come to save you as my sheep.

This is what I called the sword news. for the city, Jesus told them about sword news but for Lot, Jesus bring joyful news.

As you walking with Jesus, you ‘ll always joyful, no matter your conditions. No fear, no evil
.

what makes me sad, is how Joyce Meyer manage her wealth. I bekieve there is lot of Christian America which living under the bridge. If Joyce Meter believe in God blessing, she wouldn’t mind if she donate ALL her wealth to those peoples. If Joyce afraid, then we know this preacher didn’t believe God.

the root of evil is money. for because love money people put their self in lot problemo. money is not blessing from God, it is a curse! bkessing from God is to have peace, love, joy.

Nates
on April 2, 2013 at 4:26 pm

The Truth about Jesus Christ and His Teaching comes from the Bible alone and NOT other books on this Earth.

Therefore, we have to pray and ready our Bible daily, Faithful to our Bible studies and be righteous to GOD, then we would be in a better position to tell weather the teachings are false or not.

If we dont know the TRUTH in the bible, then we would be confused and misled.

MAY GOD BLESS YOUR HEART.

takean
on October 13, 2013 at 8:59 am

While I never watch Joyce Meyers religiously…and only having heard her a few times I cannot say that she is or isn’t a false teacher. However, I do know one thing that I see killing the church…and I’m afraid this type of thinking leads to more of it. Let me explain before you spout a lot of defense.

There are many instances within the Bible that show the human side of ministry. If you look at Barnabas and Paul, there was a division that took place between the two that wasn’t a righteous reason to do so (Acts 15: 36-41). Who was right in the decision that they were at odds about? I personally feel Paul was wrong. Others feel Barnabas was wrong. While it didnt distract from the mission…and that was God’s message being delivered…there was a split here of a difference.

Now I’m not saying what you have talked about to be bad…but what I am saying is that through age and God comes wisdom and understanding. Before you cast the first stone…consider your works of your past. Where you ever spot on 100% all the time…or did God reveal to you the errors of your ways eventually? Were you considered a false prophet and teacher as well…only now to be a discerning prophet? I think we all are evolving and growing as we seek God and do away with our flesh. Do not be the first to cast the first stone…but look at the individual and see what God sees in them. You can live by the law and die by it…or through the grace of God and the passion and mercy that comes from Him.

And as for Joyce being ordained…wasn’t there a woman Apostle? I think it was mentioned here: Rom 16:7. I’m not sure God has a problem with people doing His Will. While we are not perfect in this world…nothing is terrible about pushing the kingdom further! There are numerous things that Jesus and others tried to teach when concerning ourselves with what others are doing and whether they are right or wrong. In almost every instance the ones concerned with the other was usually at fault…because they were more focused on legalism and not on the Kingdom and what God sees.

If you truly feel the way you do and feel led by God to do your message…then you should pray to not only fulfill what God requires of you…but for those you are against…and to have grace in how God views them. Because while you may consider some to be false…nothing can deny that God has granted them Salvation…full of grace to make mistakes…and the mercy to love them…fully part of the family of God…fully free to be different than you. 🙂

Ziero Esteban Solano
on February 3, 2014 at 2:05 pm

Dear Pastor Pastor Josh Buice,
Are you the same Christian you were 20 years ago? do you know the same or you have come to a better understanding of the Word of God as you grow as a Christian?. My point is you mentioned something from 1991 (and I am NOT a fan of Joyce) what I know is that if men are not doing the work of God, HE can easily use a woman as well as HE uses us men. I sounds to me a little to extreme against women. So I believe you think almost the same about Priscilla Shirer-Beth Moore among others, Many women are learning to be Godly woman thanks to this women. About the Pastoral office… no place in the Bible talks about a woman as a Pastor, but teaching???? I will suggest to everyone to invest our time in things that will bring Glory to GOD and NOT in fighting like dogs and cats against each other letting the world see how we don’t get along so they can have an excuse not to come to the Lord, as stumbling blocks to the non believers. If anyone has a problem with someones Theology send them a letter and meet with them and invest the time in disciplining and teaching our sheep (the ones God has entrusting us). May God Bless you all!

Josh Buice
on March 12, 2014 at 12:37 pm

Unfortunately due to the amount of comments, we are going to be forced to end all comments for this particular post at this point. You are encouraged to get involved in other discussions through other articles on the DBG site.

A Word About DBG

Delivered By Grace is a theology blog that focuses on theology, SBC, preaching, the church, and many issues within the Christian life. Delivered By Grace is edited by Josh Buice and contributed to by various other preachers and writers. Unless otherwise noted, articles are written by Josh Buice.

Permissions: You can use the material found here at DBG, but you should properly cite the location by providing the author's name and a link to the page where the information is found.