tzarfoss

I'm under the impression that Virginian's will no longer be able to order wines from wine.woot

Explained Below:

"Virginia is one of the first states to restrict use of Third Party Marketers by out-of-state Direct Shippers. Beginning November 4, Third Party Marketers must follow these guidelines to become approved in the state:

-The Marketing Portal must be properly organized as an “agricultural cooperative” in its home-state and provide a copy of its license to the Virginia ABC

-Establish and submit to the state a written contract between the Marketing Portal and the Direct Shipper

The most commonly thought of Third Party Marketers (aka Third Party Providers, TPPs, flash sites, email marketers) may find it impossible to satisfy the new requirements as most are not licensed as “agricultural cooperatives”. Beginning November 4, Direct Shippers will no longer be able to accept Virginia orders made through a Third Party Marketer that is not an “agricultural cooperative”."

Is this accurate?

I wrote an email to ABC of Virginia asking to be filled in on some specific questions:

"I would like to know the state's reason for making such a change, who makes the decision to change something like that, with how much input from Virginians, and how it can be reversed?"

Does anyone have any information on this? Will Woot ever be able to comply? Any chance that something can be done to change it? Strongly Worded Emails, Petitions...etc?

ThunderThighs

The wineries featured on Wine.Woot will no longer be shipping to Virginia due to state alcohol regulations. We have no idea if or when Virginia customers will be able to resume purchasing these wines – it's out of our hands. But if you want to take it into your hands, visit freethegrapes.org.

"Substance: This action creates a new section providing the
procedure for a marketing portal or fulfillment warehouse to
apply for approval to provide services to a Virginia-licensed
wine or beer shipper. An applicant for approval would be
required to establish that it met the minimum statutory
requirements. Approved fulfillment warehouses, which ship
wine or beer on behalf of a licensed shipper, would be
required to maintain records of shipping transactions"

A. The Board may grant the following licenses relating to wine and beer:11. Marketing portal licenses, which shall authorize agricultural cooperative associations organized under the provisions of the Agricultural Cooperative Association Act (§ 13.1-312 et seq.), with a place of business located in the Commonwealth, in accordance with Board regulations, to solicit and receive orders for wine or beer through the use of the Internet from persons in the Commonwealth to whom wine or beer may be lawfully sold, on behalf of holders of wine or beer shipper's licenses. Upon receipt of an order for wine or beer, the licensee shall forward it to a holder of a wine or beer shipper's license for fulfillment. Marketing portal licensees may also accept payment on behalf of the shipper.

G. Notwithstanding the provisions of § 4.1-203, a wine or beer shipper licensee may sell wine or beer as authorized by this section through the use of the services of an approved marketing portal. For the purposes of this section, a "marketing portal" means a business organized as an agricultural cooperative association under the laws of a state, soliciting and receiving orders for wine or beer and accepting and processing payment of such orders as the agent of a licensed wine or beer shipper. The Board shall develop regulations pursuant to which marketing portals may apply for approval to provide marketing services to holders of licenses issued pursuant to this section. Such regulations shall include provisions that require (i) the marketing portal to demonstrate that it is appropriately organized as an agricultural cooperative association and licensed for the services to be provided by the state in which its place of business is located, (ii) the Board-approved marketing portal to maintain such records and to submit to the Board such information as the Board may prescribe, and (iii) the marketing portal and each wine or beer shipper licensed under this section to whom services are provided to enter into a contract designating the marketing portal as the agent of the shipper for purposes of complying with the provisions of this section.

Not sure what to do with this information yet, but That seems to be everything involved

tzarfoss

For years now I have been buying wine from wine.woot.com. It's a terrific way to discover wineries in the United States that normally you can't find on sale in your "neck of the woods" for a great deal.

I've become aware of a change in the way Virginia allows wine to be shipped from out of state wineries and I'm concerned.

This is what I've found:

"Virginia is one of the first states to restrict use of Third Party Marketers by out-of-state Direct Shippers. Beginning November 4, Third Party Marketers must follow these guidelines to become approved in the state:
The Marketing Portal must be properly organized as an “agricultural cooperative” in its home-state and provide a copy of its license to the Virginia ABC
Establish and submit to the state a written contract between the Marketing Portal and the Direct Shipper
The most commonly thought of Third Party Marketers (aka Third Party Providers, TPPs, flash sites, email marketers) may find it impossible to satisfy the new requirements as most are not licensed as “agricultural cooperatives”. Beginning November 4, Direct Shippers will no longer be able to accept Virginia orders made through a Third Party Marketer that is not an “agricultural cooperative”."

I would like to know the state's reason for making such a change, who makes the decision to change something like that, with how much input from Virginians, and how it can be reversed?

I've long touted Virginia's handling of such matters as common-sensical, only to find that at this juncture we're taking a HUGE step backwards by restricting Virginian's ability to buy something in a manner they've been using for years with seemingly no problem.
Thank you for your time and response,

Response Email:

"The short answer is that the sale of any alcoholic beverage by a third party has always illegal in the Commonwealth As a result of a federal court case the VA. General Assembly created a wine and beer shippers license which allows out of state wineries, breweries and retailers that obtain such licenses to ship wine and beer directly to consumers in Virginia. The creation of the fulfillment or marketing portal licenses was to benefit wineries and breweries that hold shippers licenses both within and outside of the Commonwealth by allowing them to use a third party to market and ship their wine and beer.

As for input by citizens as with all laws enacted by the General Assembly, citizens always are encouraged to contact their representatives to express their opinion and all legislation proposed can be viewed online at the Virginia Legislative Information System.

The statement that “Virginia is one of the first states to restrict the use of third party marketers” is somewhat misleading as out of state wineries, breweries and retailers who have shippers licenses issued by this agency now have a legal alternative to ship their products to consumers in the Commonwealth without having to do it themselves.

bkarlan

This is one of the worst things I have read. There is a very high probability of us moving to VA in the near future. I will have to find some friends that are in Maryland that can accept shipments for me.

Honestly out of all the things in the world that are going on states want to focus on wine sales from 3rd party sellers. RIDICULOUS!!!

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse..." - John Stuart Mill

"The new law also creates a Virginia fulfillment warehouse license, as well as a Virginia “marketing portal” license. These two new licenses are available only to agricultural cooperatives (non-profit associations recognized by the Virginia Agricultural Cooperative Act of 5 or more growers within Virginia) operating under the direction and control of a Virginia wine shipper licensee. On behalf of wine shipper licensees, the fulfillment and marketing portal licensees can pack and ship wine for wineries/retailers, or solicit and receive orders for wine through an Internet site.

Virginia continues to permit wineries licensed as Virginia direct wine shippers to offer their wines to Virginians via their web sites. It also continues to allow retailers licensed as Virginia direct shippers to market their own inventory on a web site. However, the new law prohibits any marketing on web sites of wine not owned/possessed by the web site owner, unless done by a Virginia agricultural cooperative licensed as a marketing portal."

Flybranda

Wish I'd been aware of this several weeks ago when I was getting multiple daily calls from politicians. Admittedly these were generally about national offices (president or senator) but, if I got the topic on the potential senator's list of 'important issues' enough times, maybe they would have passed it on to their party comrades? Oh well, I'm aware now. I'll check out free-the-grape I guess.

Wine can of their wits the wise beguile, make the sage frolic, and the serious smile. -Homer

Chargerrt500

I think it's time we start a movement. We need a name that the press will pick up on and run with. Ideas. Let's get a list of people that need to be called daily about this issue. I know someone at ABC. I'm going to speak to him and see where that goes.

MarkDaSpark

North316 wrote:I wish Ohio would enact this law for about 4-6 months so I finally catch up on my drinking and not be tempted by every single woot offering.

Better solution would be for you (and your wine) to move to Virginia for that amount of time! Why make other suffer?

I would consider it as well, except I would probably need 10 years or so.

x20

Someone has to put WD's kids thru college, but why does it have to be me! *This post is for purposes of enabling only, and does not constitute any promise of helping pay for said enabling. It does indicate willingness to assist in drinking said wine.

joeman123

I have to say that I am completely unhappy to find this out as well. I thought Virginia had reasonable state laws, but this one is really terrible. I'm going to talk to my representative, a man who I know and trust, to see what the deal is. I don't really understand what the problem is with consumers purchasing from out of state businesses without interference from the state. I'm not happy.

Flybranda

joeman123 wrote:I have to say that I am completely unhappy to find this out as well. I thought Virginia had reasonable state laws, but this one is really terrible. I'm going to talk to my representative, a man who I know and trust, to see what the deal is. I don't really understand what the problem is with consumers purchasing from out of state businesses without interference from the state. I'm not happy.

Now SIWBM means State Imposed Wine Buying Moratorium.

Wrote/FAXed to both my state Rep and state Senator via freethegrapes.org
So far, not even the courtesy of an acknowledgement.
From what I can tell, it seems the 'distributors' have once again gained undue influence and taken us back in time to the 'bad old' Dominion

Wine can of their wits the wise beguile, make the sage frolic, and the serious smile. -Homer

vaaccess

I'm going to be reaching out to my representatives, too, but have a question that I need answered.

It is critical that I (and others reaching out to our legal system) understand what problem this law/approach is trying to solve. Or rather, what benefit it provides to the Commonweath of Virginia or its citizens.

Based on one of the responses posted it sounds like they believe this is resolving an issue with a court ruling. Has anyone gained any more information?

While I think everyone will blame the distributors, and maybe rightfully so...There is one thing we shouldn't overlook. The Commonwealth will get tax proceeds if the sale of wine goes through a normal in-state distributor and/or retailer. The Commonwealth gets nothing if they allow Wine.Woot to ship direct. I'll be honest...In this time of fiscal scrutiny, I would be surprised if we don't see someone talking about this tax loophole more seriously...They are already talking about mortgage tax changes so nothing is sacred.

I doubt others would agree, (or said differently I'm probably in the minority with this) but I would support having my state get a % of all of the purchases I make On-Line, Wine or otherwise. It creates an unfair advantage against local shops and stores and at some point it needs to get resolved (one way or the other).

Anyway, I hope others continue to use this forum for the discussion and share information/ideas so we can get back to spending all of our discretionary incomes on our wine habit!

Cesare

slm9951 wrote:Since this whole thing started earlier this month, I have been wondering how the other wine sites, like WTSO, Cinderella, last bottle etc., are still able to send wine to VA.

They are stores, not wineries.

-il CesareSole Absolute Triple
Exalted High Tastemaster Supreme
“In the entire world there are only a few sounds that bring joy to all but the most jaded. One is the murmur of a kitten purring. Another is the thwack of a well-pitched baseball hitting a perfectly swung bat. And the third is the pop of a cork being pulled from a bottle of wine.” —George Taber

Cesare

slm9951 wrote:So, are you saying that Wine.Woot is considered a winery by VA?

Woot sells wine on behalf of the winery. Technically they are just the shipper.

-il CesareSole Absolute Triple
Exalted High Tastemaster Supreme
“In the entire world there are only a few sounds that bring joy to all but the most jaded. One is the murmur of a kitten purring. Another is the thwack of a well-pitched baseball hitting a perfectly swung bat. And the third is the pop of a cork being pulled from a bottle of wine.” —George Taber

slm9951

noslensj wrote:It's actually straightforward. WW only ships to states where the winery is permitted to sell. At no point does WW ever own the wine. They simply collect money and arrange transportation.

Well, I don't know alot, but I have recently received wine from wineries that sell on Woot, directly from their winery. There is something more than just a simple " this winery doesn't sell to VA" with the Woot thing. Maybe since Amazon is involved with Woot now, Woot could be considered a "store" like Cesare mentioned above.

tommythecat78

vaaccess wrote:I'm going to be reaching out to my representatives, too, but have a question that I need answered.

It is critical that I (and others reaching out to our legal system) understand what problem this law/approach is trying to solve. Or rather, what benefit it provides to the Commonweath of Virginia or its citizens.

Based on one of the responses posted it sounds like they believe this is resolving an issue with a court ruling. Has anyone gained any more information?

While I think everyone will blame the distributors, and maybe rightfully so...There is one thing we shouldn't overlook. The Commonwealth will get tax proceeds if the sale of wine goes through a normal in-state distributor and/or retailer. The Commonwealth gets nothing if they allow Wine.Woot to ship direct. I'll be honest...In this time of fiscal scrutiny, I would be surprised if we don't see someone talking about this tax loophole more seriously...They are already talking about mortgage tax changes so nothing is sacred.

I doubt others would agree, (or said differently I'm probably in the minority with this) but I would support having my state get a % of all of the purchases I make On-Line, Wine or otherwise. It creates an unfair advantage against local shops and stores and at some point it needs to get resolved (one way or the other).

Anyway, I hope others continue to use this forum for the discussion and share information/ideas so we can get back to spending all of our discretionary incomes on our wine habit!

Isn't it already the responsibility of the purchaser to report his/her out of state purchases in order to pay their state sales tax? I know most people don't do this with online purchases, but we are breaking the law by not paying our state sales tax on out-of-state online purchases. Or am I misunderstanding this?

bhodilee

tommythecat78 wrote:Isn't it already the responsibility of the purchaser to report his/her out of state purchases in order to pay their state sales tax? I know most people don't do this with online purchases, but we are breaking the law by not paying our state sales tax on out-of-state online purchases. Or am I misunderstanding this?

That's exactly the law in Nebraska. It's self reporting, and I'm sure almost nobody does it (including the State CIO by her own admission), but it is the law in at least my state. Spot for it on the tax form and everything.

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."

slm9951

Cesare

slm9951 wrote:Va is listed on the Ty Caton deal today. Has something changed or is this an error?

Mistake

-il CesareSole Absolute Triple
Exalted High Tastemaster Supreme
“In the entire world there are only a few sounds that bring joy to all but the most jaded. One is the murmur of a kitten purring. Another is the thwack of a well-pitched baseball hitting a perfectly swung bat. And the third is the pop of a cork being pulled from a bottle of wine.” —George Taber

noslensj

bhodilee wrote:That's exactly the law in Nebraska. It's self reporting, and I'm sure almost nobody does it (including the State CIO by her own admission), but it is the law in at least my state. Spot for it on the tax form and everything.

While I have not checked the laws for Nebraska I would be quite amazed if Nebraska required that winery obtain a permit, license, or other authorization to ship wine into Nebraska without also requiring the winery to collect and remit sales tax on those sales.

Without fail, the states where I have looked at the law all require that a winery requesting a shipping license or permit also obtain a business license from the state as part of the process of obtaining approval for shipping. One of the requirements of having a business license is to report sales and remit taxes. If the state has an income tax, the winery will probably also need to file income taxes as well.

Whether or not the winery actually collects and remits the tax isn't in the consumers hands. But wherever I've looked I've seen that collecting and remitting sales tax is woven right into the process for gaining shipping approval. If it's not broken out as a separate line item, then it's either built into the pricing or the winery is failing to collect. But if the winery is failing to collect the tax that's not the buyer's problem.

If you're concerned that you ought to be paying Nebraska sales tax on your out of state wine shipments, you might investigate the requirements for obtaining a Nebraska shipping license or permit. I think you'll find that you can't get approval unless you also have a some form of Nebraska business license.

akbopper

bhodilee wrote:That's exactly the law in Nebraska. It's self reporting, and I'm sure almost nobody does it (including the State CIO by her own admission), but it is the law in at least my state. Spot for it on the tax form and everything.

That is more or less how it works in virtually every state, I think. If I order from an online seller with no presence in my state (VA), the seller generally is not required to charge tax for my state. But, the state imposes what it calls a "use tax" for those goods that I buy out of state and for which I pay no sales tax. The "use tax" is essentially another way of characterizing sales tax. It is self-reported; that is, the purchaser is *supposed* to report all out of state purchases on his or her state tax return and pay a use tax for those things. I suspect the rate of compliance with the use tax is extremely low.

tdonut

Glad I've been stocking up. I wrote to the state legislators via freethegrapes. It surprised me that Virginia would come down on this side of the issue, although I know they've tried this in the past. I really do think the Renaissance of wine in this country is due in a large part to small wineries being able to market their product nationally via the Internet. Think of all the wines I would never have tried (or even known existed) without wine.woot. If you drive through Virginia, there's a little winery at practically every exit, and all of our legislators are "we love small business" (yeah, right) Republicans.

In other words, why would they do this to me?!?!

Copy of my letter, feel free to use:

Dear Sirs:

I know your time is valuable; I will keep this short. I have just recently learned that wine can no longer be purchased in Virginia through a third-party online site (wine.woot.com is one I have used for many years). I feel that this does a grave disservice to the consumer and to the wineries themselves. Wineries are small businesses, with a limited and highly regulated product. Third party websites allow small wineries to sell their products to people who simply would otherwise never be exposed to them. No brick-and-mortar store can stock the variety that a third party distributor can provide, and few provide the national and international exposure a website brings. Smaller wineries that cannot market their product to national chain stores, or supply that kind of bulk, end up cut out of the marketplace. The consumer, meanwhile, never gets to see the fantastic offerings of these small vintners without this kind of distribution. I cannot tell you how many wines, made in how many states, I have enjoyed thanks to wine.woot.com; the number is in the hundreds easily. The renaissance of wine in many states is due in no small part to the Internet and the greater exposure to these small wineries.

I was stunned to discover that Virginia, of all places, has come down against small business, especially in wine. There are somewhere in the neighborhood of 230 Virginia wineries in every region of this state, from Hampton Roads to the Blue Ridge to the Shenandoah Valley, and most of them produce only small volumes of each vintage. If Virginia wants to have the same viticulture as other states like California, Oregon, and New York, we must promote small wineries selling through third party distribution, giving our products a national and even international market.

As Republicans, gentlemen, you speak a great deal about the importance of small business in America. I sincerely hope it wasn't all just lip-service.

Glad I've been stocking up. I wrote to the state legislators via freethegrapes. It surprised me that Virginia would come down on this side of the issue, although I know they've tried this in the past. I really do think the Renaissance of wine in this country is due in a large part to small wineries being able to market their product nationally via the Internet. Think of all the wines I would never have tried (or even known existed) without wine.woot. If you drive through Virginia, there's a little winery at practically every exit, and all of our legislators are "we love small business" (yeah, right) Republicans.

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