Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the
world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to
over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a
wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history,
humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced
features available, you will need to register first. Registration is
absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

I'd probably give the one with the least restrictive rule set (for resistance training) the edge.

Hi Ron,

I think you are quite right about resistance training improving martial arts skills. In some aikido training, this is all but ignored. In many martial arts, resistance is regulated in detail, or very limited in some way.

To learn martial arts, one must try to understand the dynamics of attack and defense. Normally, both combattants are attackers and defenders throughout.
Again, I am reminded of Musashi's Go Rin no Sho, where he says about the feared bandit hiding in a house that the people outside are afraid to enter. They should realize that the bandit is equally afraid of them.

In aikido, many uke have the wrong attitude in attacking, because they exclude the possibility of tori attacking them (with anything other than an aikido technique). So, they position themselves vulnerably, or sometimes they resist in a way that would hardly be done by somebody alert to the possibility of tori forgetting about aikido and striking instead. And so on...

Nevertheless, in aikido the goal is very different from defeating an opponent, so the above is of limited significance. I'm just rambling

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

if he's good, you might get one chance to...
kick to knee,
punch or elbow to face,
knee trust to vitals, or
break wrists or shoulders
...then you'll be taken down for ne-waza, if your one strike did not penetrate enough.

which is why i must resist laughing at karate dojo jiju kumite that limits to point sparring - speed tag with delusions of control, for most --, above the belt only and "light" head contact, no face contact.

however, when I am at a kyokushin karate dojo, I am not laughing -- usually trying to control by breath, summon courage, and pick myself off the mat, again...

the striking i've learned from kyokushin (and in MMA) sparring has made be value developing one-strike one-kill mindset and waza, while BJJ "rolling" made me appreciate all the opportunities to learn.

Atemi, indeed, is 90% of "aikido" or any physical contact.

Osu

go ahead and make that obvious remark about thread zombieness

"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

hi

great question from the OP, and one that is very important for all MA to ask, not specifically baout BJJ but if they see something or someone new then a person should look at their art very honestly and ask how could i deal with that? does my art have something to deal with that. this is how we can find out weaknesses in our arts and ..... isn't that how most of the MA were developed anyway?

if we don;t continue to look and evaluate what happens to our art? it becomes stagnant and frozen at a fixed point in time, which is ok if that is what you wantbut again you should be clear about it i.e. be clear that your practice is mainly for art and history rather than practical application.

as for BJJ, it is a tough one becasue what they have was mainly desgined to fight other martial artists where are most tradional martial art were designed to fight in an unsporting context, you could actually say that about any MA that hs invested time in the sporting aspect, sooner or later the tradional techniques don't work as well and people have to create new methods to overcome defensives and the art changes a grows. this is on reaosn why in contact sports there is very little unworkable theory (in the context of that particualr sport of course)

i think the main thing that people are worried about from BJJ, is the 'shoot' a strong shoot is very uncomfortable and if you are nervous about it, it can actually make you more nervous, however, on an aikido point of view the 'shoot' is alot of force coming to your centre, isn;t this what we train for? watch UFC how in the lower ranks how many times does theattacker end up in a headlock whether on his feet or on the ground. for a start i would be trying to get that head lock and going into the ground his head first (think DDT from saturday morning wrestling) or turn and throw, of course this is theory, if the shoot was too fast, if the fella got a really good shoot which inloves pulling the knees in as well, if he hit me lower that my centre, or dropped fast (i.e. held on to his centre) it would all need tweaking to my technique.

if grapping i wouldn't try to beat a BJJ guy like that, that is playing their game i would try to seperate and get away as fast as possible, aikido strengths longer range and using force, BJJ strengths grapping and ground.

i wouldn;t be comfortable in trying suwari waza seriously, but it would be fun to play with sitting on your knees at the beginning of a match might give them something else to think about.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:

Andrew Macdonald wrote:

hi

i think the main thing that people are worried about from BJJ, is the 'shoot' a strong shoot is very uncomfortable and if you are nervous about it, it can actually make you more nervous, however, on an aikido point of view the 'shoot' is alot of force coming to your centre, isn;t this what we train for?

I don't think there is any one technique that I would try to use against a BJJ person. However, to specifically deal with the shoot, I would probably use a variation on kaiten-nage.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

In terms of techniques when rolling in ne-waza with a BJJ practitioner, an aikido person should perfect wrist locks from various positions on the ground. Although wrist locks are allowed in BJJ, they are rarely taught, so an aikido person has a comparative advantage when using wrist locks on the ground. However, just like when standing up, tai-sabaki is very important, so too is being able to move your body correctly when on the ground. To do this requires regular practice of ne-waza randori with partners at various skill levels.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:

Daniel Wilson wrote:

In terms of techniques when rolling in ne-waza with a BJJ practitioner, an aikido person should perfect wrist locks from various positions on the ground. Although wrist locks are allowed in BJJ, they are rarely taught, so an aikido person has a comparative advantage when using wrist locks on the ground. However, just like when standing up, tai-sabaki is very important, so too is being able to move your body correctly when on the ground. To do this requires regular practice of ne-waza randori with partners at various skill levels.

Wrist locks can work and I do them when they are appropriate in BJJ. However, you ending caveat about "moving your body correctly on the ground" is the most important. That is, learn BJJ if you want to defeat a BJJer on the ground, which is all about moving your body correctly on the ground. Oh the dilemma!

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:

Kevin Leavitt wrote:

Ever tried to wax a Brazilian...they don't like it very much...at least the BJJer I train with don't.

Kevin,
Sonds to me that waxing the hirsute Bjj guy seems to be a reliable waza. I would love to seem them grimace when you remove said wax from the delicate regions of the anatomy.`would the pain from the wax removal be worse than a maegeri to the same area?Ask your mates this question???Cheers, Joe.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:

Joe Curran wrote:

Kevin,
Sonds to me that waxing the hirsute Bjj guy seems to be a reliable waza. I would love to seem them grimace when you remove said wax from the delicate regions of the anatomy.`would the pain from the wax removal be worse than a maegeri to the same area?Ask your mates this question???Cheers, Joe.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

While it's not on topic as far as Aikido is concerned, from an historic aspect this may be a humorous anecdote, and it happened under friendly circumstances between friends a very long time ago.

Yoshishige Okai received Menkyo Shihan in Hakkoryu in the 1950's. He took his family to Brazil, and later Portugal, where their dojo is today. Here's what I have to quote thanks to him:

Quote:

We left the deep jungle of Brazil after cultivating the land for a year and then moved to the city of Sao Paulo, Brazil. I entered Miguel Couto Massage School and passed Brazil's national certification exams. Happily, I started to work as a licensed massage practitioner at Sao Paulo. After few years later, I moved to Rio de Janeiro, Brazil and met a judo athlete. He introduced me to Helio Gracie, of the famous Gracie Jiu-jitsu style. Helio told me all kinds of interesting stories and I had a great time with him. Helio told me that his best Waza (technique) is "Dojime" (scissor lock) and nobody ever countered this technique. He asked me "how would you counter "Dojime" using Hakkoryu Jujutsu?" In saying this, he immediately tried to give me "Dojime". I was telling myself that Hakkoryu is self defense. Well, I have two choices. One is "Metsubushi" (eye closer) and another one is "groin kick". In a moment of inspiration, I gave him "groin kick". Of course not too hard, I gave him a break...but I have never forgotten the surprised expression on his face and how his eyes rolled back. I think that I really understood the real significance of "Hakkoryu Goshin Jujutsu" at that moment.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:

Michael Fooks wrote:

In that case this is the best piece of advice I can give you. If you want to beat a grappler, you need to learn to grapple. Simple. BJJers train in a different way, with a different mindset and with different goals to most Aikidoka. The result is in a true application they are likely to have more functional tools availible to them. Or it may be better to say their tools have become more functionalised.

This is the only sensible advice. I too had the same question many years ago and so got into Jujutsu, Kungfu, Judo etc. And. at the end of the day, my Aikido is far better than it otherwise would have been. From my experience, if you did try to poke a BJJ guy in the eye or throat, it would just piss him off and make your situation that much worse. Best just get out of the way, seriously.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:

Devon Smith wrote:

While it's not on topic as far as Aikido is concerned, from an historic aspect this may be a humorous anecdote, and it happened under friendly circumstances between friends a very long time ago.

Yoshishige Okai received Menkyo Shihan in Hakkoryu in the 1950's. He took his family to Brazil, and later Portugal, where their dojo is today. Here's what I have to quote thanks to him:

Devon

Devon, nice quote...do you have a source for it, I have never seen that and would love to read more about this. There is so much pro Gracie propaganda out there in the world that I am alway looking for other sources that are less biased.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:

Kevin Leavitt wrote:

Devon, nice quote...do you have a source for it, I have never seen that and would love to read more about this. There is so much pro Gracie propaganda out there in the world that I am alway looking for other sources that are less biased.

Hi Kevin,

I interviewed Yoshishige Okai myself as well as some other long-time members of Hakkoryu via email thanks to the translation help of a good friend last year. The Gracie anecdote was only a small part of his larger story about how he became interested in shiatsu and later training in jujutsu after his experience with judo. He is still very active at his clinic in the city of Porto, Portugal.

I haven't yet had the chance to meet Yoshishige in person, but I enjoyed meeting and training with his son Ryutaro last year during his first visit to the USA while attending the Hakkoryu jikiden sessions in New Jersey. Ryutaro's shiatsu and jujutsu is excellent, a compliment to his father.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

How does one kick someone in the groin when they are applying or about to apply do jime? Usually do jime is done when uke has given his back (and is on the ground) to the person who is applying do jime.

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:

Daniel Wilson wrote:

How does one kick someone in the groin when they are applying or about to apply do jime? Usually do jime is done when uke has given his back (and is on the ground) to the person who is applying do jime.

Dear Daniel,
Nowhere in the article did anybody state the application of do Jime was Tori attacking Uke from the rear.Obviously if this was the case a kick to the groin by uke becomes a difficult [nay almost impossible ]counter attack. Cheers, Joe. Ps Do Jime as I understand it is a trunk sqeesing waza.