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Patterson, Marx, Wallace, Freeman. These are the big four. They could, would, and did produce Bigfoot evidence like no others, each moving from footprints to costumes to films. I think suitable dossiers can be compiled on each one, to discredit their "work products" from ever being used for scientific research. If Meldrum is using their stuff, and I think he is, he should stop.

What about Bob Titmus? I've said that he was one of the most prolific Bigfoot hoaxers of all time.

__________________Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

...snip...Here is an interesting news item featuring Dr. Schmid, who has unearthed a more recent species, which shows a "flexible foot." Does this tend to support Meldrum?

I saw this some time ago. If it tips the ballance towards Meldrum or not, well, maybe so, maybe no. Paleoanthropologists are always fighting about hominid species. Sometimes its a bit tiresome and quite frankly, I think Dawkins is correct when he says its too much ado about nothing. So, someone may decide its actually another genus or maybe that different australopithecine species could have different feet...

On the other hand, its been known for a while from their feet morphology that australopithecines were good climbers and probably spent a lot of time over the trees. It makes sense, from the evolutionary viewpoint, that a gracile animal slower than the big cats which lived around and which was also deprived of big claws or fangs would flee for safety at the tree tops. It makes sense to move bipedaly from a tree group to another while looking for food if they are not very far from each other. Such a lifestyle would create a tendency for some flexibility in the feet.

Now, it makes no sense from the evolutionary point of view that a humongous bipedal ape supposed to walk for long ranges and with an enormous distribution would retain such feature even if it evolved from an australopithecine-like critter. Note also that Meldrum defends (AFAIK) bigfeet came from gigantopithecus and we are talking about australopithecines. Lots of leaps of faith or wild speculations are required to build a link.

So, even if he is correct, its not a hit for bigfoot...

__________________Racism, sexism, ignorance, homophobia, intolerance, extremism, authoritarianism, environmental disasters, politically correct crap, violence at sport stadiums, slavery, poverty, wars, people who disagree with me:
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More on Freeman. The Forest Service decided he was a hoaxer. Freeman himself admitted he was a hoaxer on "Good Morning, America." Freeman trackway debunked by Dahinden, faked hair samples, Etc.

"The Skeptical Inquirer [Spring 1989 issue.] followed up with an in-depth analysis..."
How might one find this source?

how could Meldrum not have given this guy's work products the "deep six?"

More here on Freeman, and on the central role of "dermal ridges" in Krantz' view of the likelihood of hoaxing by Freeman and Marx...Krantz deceived by the prankster in Indiana.
Does Meldrum agree that the dermal ridges are a casting artifact? does he acknowledge this in public? does he confess to the implications?

__________________"Take the children, but LEAVE ME MY MONKEY!"
--Dewey Cox, in "Walk Hard: the Dewey Cox Story."
"The main skill of bigfoot investigators is finding ways to deny the obvious." --DFoot

I saw this some time ago. If it tips the ballance towards Meldrum or not, well, maybe so, maybe no.....
So, even if he is correct, its not a hit for bigfoot...

I agree, and my point to wolftrax is that debating the Bigfoot issue on this turf is playing into Meldrum's hand. Meldrum can speculate all he likes on archeology and physical anthropology and the anatomy of the foot, and these are his strengths. One could disagree with him, even cite the opinions of others in his field, but that doesn't approach proving him wrong. imho.

__________________"Take the children, but LEAVE ME MY MONKEY!"
--Dewey Cox, in "Walk Hard: the Dewey Cox Story."
"The main skill of bigfoot investigators is finding ways to deny the obvious." --DFoot

One overcast Sunday morning in 1996, Jeffrey Meldrum and his brother drove to Walla Walla, Wash., to see if they could find Paul Freeman, a man renowned in Bigfoot circles as a source of footprint casts. Meldrum--who has followed Bigfoot lore since he was a boy--had heard that Freeman was a hoaxer, "so I was very dubious," he recalls. The brothers arrived unannounced, Meldrum says, and chatted with Freeman about his collection. Freeman said he had found tracks just that morning, but they were not good, not worth casting. The brothers wanted to see them regardless. "I thought we could use this to study the anatomy of a hoax," Meldrum says. Instead Meldrum's visit to a ridge in the Blue Mountains set him firmly on a quest he has been on since.

Meldrum, an associate professor of anatomy and anthropology at Idaho State University, is an expert on foot morphology and locomotion in monkeys, apes and hominids. He has studied the evolution of bipedalism and edited From Biped to Strider (Springer, 2004), a well-respected textbook. He brought his anatomical expertise to the site outside Walla Walla. The 14-inch-long prints Freeman showed him were interesting, Meldrum says, because some turned out at a 45-degree angle, suggesting that whatever made them had looked back over its shoulder. Some showed skin whorls, some were flat with distinct anatomical detail, others were of running feet-imprints of the front part of the foot only, of toes gripping the mud. Meldrum made casts and decided it would be hard to hoax the running footprints, "unless you had some device, some cable-loaded flexible toes."

__________________"Take the children, but LEAVE ME MY MONKEY!"
--Dewey Cox, in "Walk Hard: the Dewey Cox Story."
"The main skill of bigfoot investigators is finding ways to deny the obvious." --DFoot

how could Meldrum not have given this guy's work products the "deep six?"

It's that old chestnut, used by Munns with regard to the PGF, that "a known hoaxer has the same probability of finding real evidence as an honest person". Never mind, of course, that probability is on the side of a known hoaxer continuing to hoax.

__________________"I'm 'willing to admit' any fact that can be shown to be evidential and certain." -- Vortigern99

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." -- Jimi Hendrix

Munns presented one of the worse pieces of bigfoot pseudoscience - that hoax probability evaluation. However, this time I tip my hat for him, because its true that "a known hoaxer has the same probability of finding real (bigfoot) evidence as an honest person". The probability, in both cases, is zero.

ETA: Yeah, yeah, yeah. As a good skeptic, I should have said "near zero" instead of making such a bold statement because blah blah blah. But lets be honest- the odds are very like those of finding reliable evidence of the universal flood, ID and other nonsense. Zero.

__________________Racism, sexism, ignorance, homophobia, intolerance, extremism, authoritarianism, environmental disasters, politically correct crap, violence at sport stadiums, slavery, poverty, wars, people who disagree with me:
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ETA: Yeah, yeah, yeah. As a good skeptic, I should have said "near zero" instead of making such a bold statement because blah blah blah. But lets be honest- the odds are very like those of finding reliable evidence of the universal flood, ID and other nonsense. Zero.

I'm trying to understand the "good skeptic" thing. Would a "good skeptic" not say that trilobites are extinct because, well, because you never know....?

__________________Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

You know, its all about those philosophical approaches. Like those endless discussions about the nature of reality. Some of those more philosophically-inclined folks will say the right thing is to always leave the door almost closed instead of tightly closed and locked. Its their own way.

__________________Racism, sexism, ignorance, homophobia, intolerance, extremism, authoritarianism, environmental disasters, politically correct crap, violence at sport stadiums, slavery, poverty, wars, people who disagree with me:
Together we can find the cure
Oh, and together we can find a cure to religion too…

I think Chillcut is doing the exact same thing I think Meldrum is doing. Both going on about their Bigfoot Business™ acting as if they believe in Bigfoot just because it's safer (i.e. Bigfoot won't be disproved) than coming clean and losing all credibility. Chilcutt's documented (I think) reluctance to consider proven-to-occur 'casting artifacts' as even a possibility is really all it takes for me to conclude he's not being honest, and that in fact 'seeking truth' might be on his list, but it's definitely not the number one item, if even in the top three.

Which IMO points totally to the notion that both Chillcut and Meldrum were more than likely given (or took) too much credit from the beginning as to their actual expertise and abilities. I don't think I need to cite an example of other 'bad police work' or 'bad science' to point out how it can and often does happen, even to the 'best' of them (for the die hard Meldrum fans). Anyone think it's possible Chilcutt has sent innocent people to prison? Probable?

Self preservation is about more than just one's mortality. People will do whatever it takes, including <gasp> spewing dishonesty that appears honest <gasp> to literally 'preserve' oneself from any and all manner of personal attack (non physical). And ESPECIALLY SO if one's entire 30 year career/reputation are at stake.

I can imagine the headlines?
Ya I know I twisted things, but I'm crazy..

Jeff Meldrum, finding non-existent animals with non-existent arches around the world, speaking at the latest convocation of organisms that bear a slight but real resemblance to the object of their searches.

Quote:

Other speakers included Idaho State University professor Dr. Jeff Meldrum, who opened the conference by discussing at length the Nguoi Rung footprint, discovered in 1982 in the Kantum Province of Vietnam and perhaps the sole concrete evidence of an unclassified hominoid in the Southeast Asia nation.

The print is about 11 inches long and 4 inches across at its widest point. Though the imprint of five toes is evident, the presence of claws is inconclusive, based on the print, Meldrum said.

Dimensions of the track are consistent with tribes people found in the area. As such, a human origin to the print is possible. But neither the Asiatic black bear nor the Malaysian sun bear could be ruled out, Meldrum said.

The print was found near the borders of Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia, in a region where a number of new animal species have been discovered during the past few years.

Meldrum said he has spoken with Vietnam War veterans who reported encountering hair-covered bipedal creatures in the country. He added that official government surveys of indigenous animals mention such creatures.

Though he was convinced that the Yeti and Sasquatch were separate and distinct from each other, Meldrum said that new print evidence seems to suggest otherwise.

Efforts to duplicate pressure ridges -- areas of displaced soil found in some tracks and considered by some researchers as proof of a flexible foot, unlike those of humans -- yielded inconsistent results when attempted by one researcher.

__________________"Take the children, but LEAVE ME MY MONKEY!"
--Dewey Cox, in "Walk Hard: the Dewey Cox Story."
"The main skill of bigfoot investigators is finding ways to deny the obvious." --DFoot

Munns presented one of the worse pieces of bigfoot pseudoscience - that hoax probability evaluation. However, this time I tip my hat for him, because its true that "a known hoaxer has the same probability of finding real (bigfoot) evidence as an honest person". The probability, in both cases, is zero.
.

the scientific world is less forgiving than is Munns in dealing with those who "cry wolf" ie hoaxers. It is one thing to be wrong.... science is really about learning from mistakes. But hoaxing data is not tolerated.

__________________"Take the children, but LEAVE ME MY MONKEY!"
--Dewey Cox, in "Walk Hard: the Dewey Cox Story."
"The main skill of bigfoot investigators is finding ways to deny the obvious." --DFoot

As a Mormon activist who teaches the validity of the Book of Mormon and its precepts,, such as at least some if not all of the indigenous peoples of North America being the decendants of the Nephites, Lamanites, Jaredites, and Mulekites from Jerusalem, does Meldrum follow the teaching that black people are cursed and suffer the mark of Cain? As LDS church president from 1847 to 1877 Brigham Young wrote...

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so."

Does he believe that the only reason black people made it through the Flood was to represent Satan on Earth? And of so, is this black Christian man here taking these young white Mormon men down to Chinatown actually a wolf of Satan in sheep's clothing?

I would very much doubt Meldrum would believe any of these racist, idiotic babblings, but I do have to wonder why he would believe anything connected to Mormonism, particularly anything connected to charlatan Joseph Smith. I do not understand why Meldrum is passionately active in promoting the literal truth of the Book of Mormon. Does he not turn his scrutiny as a scientist on his faith? When it's Mormon time does he take off his scientist hat and put on his faith hat? I would think that if Meldrum was going to teach that groups of Israelites actually made it to North America to become at least some tribes of natives, he would consider it a scientifically falsifiable argument. Can we not look to DNA studies to back up the claims of his religion?

I think these are fair questions to ask when Bigfoot proponents hold up the methodology and conclusions of Dr. Meldrum where Bigfoot is concerned. Am I making a low blow? I certainly do not think so and I would like to hear the thoughts of others on this.

__________________Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

I've seen him a number of times on the web and TV and listened to radio interviews. Something is really odd to me about Jeff Meldrum. He seems to lack emotion and typical human responsiveness - as if he is flat, cold, robotic, etc.

I expect Bigfoot believers to be weirdos and Meldrum doesn't disappoint in that respect.

__________________Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

Absolutely. Although I doubt a response from Meldrum will be forthcoming.

Originally Posted by William Parcher

I've seen him a number of times on the web and TV and listened to radio interviews. Something is really odd to me about Jeff Meldrum. He seems to lack emotion and typical human responsiveness - as if he is flat, cold, robotic, etc.

I expect Bigfoot believers to be weirdos and Meldrum doesn't disappoint in that respect.

Absolutely (again). It always seems he plays it as if he's really dispassionate about it all. Which 'on paper' would seem to indicate an unbiased/unprejudiced, just-the-facts kind of persona, but he's already proven he's not that. And if he possesses a sense of humor (at all), I'm unaware of it.

I do not understand why Meldrum is passionately active in promoting the literal truth of the Book of Mormon. Does he not turn his scrutiny as a scientist on his faith? When it's Mormon time does he take off his scientist hat and put on his faith hat? I would think that if Meldrum was going to teach that groups of Israelites actually made it to North America to become at least some tribes of natives, he would consider it a scientifically falsifiable argument. Can we not look to DNA studies to back up the claims of his religion?

I am remiss. I am wrong. I am mistaken. In asking how Meldrum approaches Mormonism scientifically, I have forgotten information that I have reported before, at least two years or so ago. I wondered how, as a scientist, Dr. Meldrum might approach the question of Israelites in the New World prior to the European takeover of North America, in a scientifically falsifiable way. The answer was in genetics. That question has been addressed by Dr. Meldrum five years ago. Meldrum keeps his scientist hat on with charlatan Joseph Smith's hoax, The Book of Morman. Unfortunately, that hat seems to be a little ill-fitting...

D. Jeffrey Meldrum, "The Children of Lehi: DNA and the Book of Mormon," (Mesa, Arizona: FAIR, November 2005) Over the last several years there has been a flurry of articles and reports about how DNA studies have refuted the claimed historicity of the Book of Mormon. In his 2003 FAIR Conference presentation, Meldrum addressed a number of the arguments being raised by anti-Mormon critics related to DNA and the Book of Mormon. Meldrum points out that the internal claims of the Book of Mormon text cannot be refuted using current DNA studies, despite the desire of critics to press such studies into service. The Book of Mormon text deals with the ideas of a covenant people being a blessing to genetically unrelated peoples and cultures, and allows for a genetic impact by the immigrant Israelites that would not be detectable today. Meldrum concludes by asserting, "Ultimately we are impressed by the realization that the fundamental question of the veracity of the claims of the Book of Mormon lies beyond the ken of modern DNA research."

I suggest that when it comes to personal beliefs engendered at a young age, Mormonism and Bigfoot, Dr. Meldrum has taken his scientific training and applied them in an erroneous manner. I do not question Meldrum's intelligence. I do not question Meldrum's devotion to truth. In finality, and as always, as Eugenie Scott said, it is not his motives that I question. It is his methodolgy and his conclusions.

__________________Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

His scientific reasoning seems to tie in perfectly to Bigfoot Science.

We propose that the Abrahamic covenant, by which all the families of the earth would be blessed through Abraham (see Abraham 2:11), applied to the children of Lehi in much the same way that it applied to the children of Israel, as leaven within bread. The leaven is, of necessity, only a small ingredient in bread, not the bread itself. We propose that the children of Lehi are the leaven of the Abrahamic covenant in the New World, unlikely to be detected by genetic analysis of modern New World inhabitants.

Well, Bigfootery and Mormonism existed before Meldrum found them. He didn't invent either of them. Maybe the Bigfoot mid-tarsal break hypothesis is his only unique invention and contribution to Bigfootery. Should we actually be calling this a theory (thesis) since he has produced a paper?

His Bigfoot Science is only acknowledged by other Bigfooters. Bigfoot is for Bigfooters. Non-Bigfooters understand that such a creature does not exist and is quite obviously folklore. They understand that if Bigfoot really did exist we would have physical biological evidence of it by now.

Notice that 99.9+% of scientists do not engage on pro- or anti- Bigfoot forums. They have no interest in discussing the topic and are not "burdened" with the ticky-tacky debates about plaster cast authenticity or the latest infrared revealed candybar thief. This stuff is (rightly) regarded as a stupid waste of time and you have to be plumb crazy to do it and think about Bigfoot (pro or anti) for more than about a minute. But they would also say... "whatever floats your boat".

__________________Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

Maybe the Bigfoot mid-tarsal break hypothesis is his only unique invention and contribution to Bigfootery.

Yeah, that's what I meant.

I just finally saw "Legend Meets Science" on the Discovery Channel this weekend. There sure was a lot of nonsense on display, but also a lot of the trappings of science: fancy equipment, colored lights, geeky people in labs, etc. It would be very difficult for the average schmo to come away from that program skeptical of bigfoot. The bigger issue, however, is that there certainly has been quite an investment by "science" to address this phenomenon. Why do 'footers persist in believing otherwise?

I think there is a level of $$ available to the astute bigfooters. There may even be a secret club, where the idea of bigfoot is joked about amongst their own, but when conversing with the regular bigfooter, it is kept under wraps. Do I think Rick Noll believes there is a bigfoot? no. Do I think he acts like he believes there is a bigfoot? yes. Ask this question about others. i.e. Matt Moneymaker, Jeff Meldrum, Bob Gimlin, etc...

There also seems to be a 2nd tier of bigfootry, that wish to attain Bigfoot fame, but really believe there is a bigfoot, (because they mistakenly think that believing in Bigfoot is the ticket to the top tier) they will never be allowed in the top tier, these would be the Melissa Hovey, The Michigan group, The Ohio Conference guy, the Florida Skunk ape guy.

__________________"I dont call that evolution, I call that the survival of the fittest." - Bulletmaker
"I thought skeptics would usually point towards a hoax rather than a group being duped." - makaya325
Kit is not a skeptic. He is a former Bigfoot believer that changed his position to that of non believer.- Crowlogic

...I just finally saw "Legend Meets Science" on the Discovery Channel this weekend. There sure was a lot of nonsense on display, but also a lot of the trappings of science: fancy equipment, colored lights, geeky people in labs, etc. It would be very difficult for the average schmo to come away from that program skeptical of bigfoot...

It wasn't really that cool was it?! Without proving a single thing Bigfooty, and whilst chronicling a literal 'wild goose chase' (MDF), that show did little to further either cause except possibly to show exactly what you mention, the trappings and such so as to make the uninitiated believe we've got 'top men' on it. It was definitely not intended to tilt the 'average schmo' to the skeptical side. I also want to believe Meldrum was paid handsomely for his role (and other roles since), but I'll bet we so don't want to know how cheaply he was had.

Originally Posted by Drewbot

...Do I think Rick Noll believes there is a bigfoot? no. Do I think he acts like he believes there is a bigfoot? yes. Ask this question about others. i.e. Matt Moneymaker, Jeff Meldrum, Bob Gimlin, etc...

Good point. Note that every one of them has an actual financial stake in Bigfoot Inc.™! The lying ********!

Originally Posted by Drewbot

...There also seems to be a 2nd tier of bigfootry, that wish to attain Bigfoot fame, but really believe there is a bigfoot, (because they mistakenly think that believing in Bigfoot is the ticket to the top tier) they will never be allowed in the top tier, these would be the Melissa Hovey, The Michigan group, The Ohio Conference guy, the Florida Skunk ape guy.

Another good point. And while the MRG specifically might have Cabeza-Rectal Syndrome™, I've little doubt Don Keating and Melissa Hovey are Bigfoot Sincere™.

It wasn't really that cool was it?! Without proving a single thing Bigfooty, and whilst chronicling a literal 'wild goose chase' (MDF), that show did little to further either cause except possibly to show exactly what you mention, the trappings and such so as to make the uninitiated believe we've got 'top men' on it. It was definitely not intended to tilt the 'average schmo' to the skeptical side.

In Tokyo I would often pop my copy of LMS in the DVD player and let the soothing baritone of Stacy Keach and Meldrum's talk about calcaneal tendons lull me to a dreamy sleep of Ivan Marx-esque Bigfoots bumbling through my head. I really must have someone send that over to Canada for me. LMS is my Ambien.

__________________Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

I've seen him a number of times on the web and TV and listened to radio interviews. Something is really odd to me about Jeff Meldrum. He seems to lack emotion and typical human responsiveness - as if he is flat, cold, robotic, etc.

I expect Bigfoot believers to be weirdos and Meldrum doesn't disappoint in that respect.

I have spoken to Dr. Meldrum 3 times and he can be very stoic and distant. He does attempt to crack a few jokes during his Bigfoot presentations, but that may just be an attempt to wake up the sleepers in the audience. His talks are very boring, unless primate foot morphology interests you. Dr. Meldrum, you need to find a Bigfoot SPECIMEN before you worry about it's foot physiology.

__________________"Get the proof, then deal with the protectionist angles later. 40 something years of beating the bush is enough. Put up or shut up."~Graz

__________________Racism, sexism, ignorance, homophobia, intolerance, extremism, authoritarianism, environmental disasters, politically correct crap, violence at sport stadiums, slavery, poverty, wars, people who disagree with me:
Together we can find the cure
Oh, and together we can find a cure to religion too…

__________________Racism, sexism, ignorance, homophobia, intolerance, extremism, authoritarianism, environmental disasters, politically correct crap, violence at sport stadiums, slavery, poverty, wars, people who disagree with me:
Together we can find the cure
Oh, and together we can find a cure to religion too…

Are you sure you haven't been evaluated by a Sleep-Disorder specialist?

__________________"I dont call that evolution, I call that the survival of the fittest." - Bulletmaker
"I thought skeptics would usually point towards a hoax rather than a group being duped." - makaya325
Kit is not a skeptic. He is a former Bigfoot believer that changed his position to that of non believer.- Crowlogic

Given your claimed sighting, your avatar and what you wrote about Medrum and his ideas on bigfoot foot anatomy, I suspect you are waiting for a bigfoot specimen. Since footers have been waiting for "proof" for quite a while, its understandable that people will get bored and sleepy.

But do not despair! Some people have been waiting for Jesus to return for much longer!

__________________Racism, sexism, ignorance, homophobia, intolerance, extremism, authoritarianism, environmental disasters, politically correct crap, violence at sport stadiums, slavery, poverty, wars, people who disagree with me:
Together we can find the cure
Oh, and together we can find a cure to religion too…