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I think there is plenty of room in the world for both digital and acoustic pianos.

As a pianist there is nothing I like better than to get my hands on a quality concert grand piano, however rare that is nowadays. Unfortunately I will never have the space or means to own one. Even so I still prefer my Yamaha upright to any digital. It's not necessarily the sound of individual notes or the action, more that it gives me feedback that I have never managed to get from a digital. In many ways it's inferior to the most modern and best digitals but I still get more enjoyment from it.

I also own two digitals. One is an old technics that I have in my teaching room and use to accompany students in two piano works as I only have one acoustic. The other is a stage piano that I take on gigs. Actually it's mainly classical stuff that I play on gigs and I've been glad of my digital when faced with some of the horrendous acoustics in hotels and small venues. At least I know where I am with the digital, everything works and it's in tune!

I think the main problem with acoustic pianos these days is price. I teach around fifty students and not one of them can get anywhere near being able to afford a nice grand piano. Even a decent upright costs an arm and a leg. So I find myself recommending digitals more and more and so far haven't noticed that they have been detrimental to my students playing.

I think there is plenty of room in the world for both digital and acoustic pianos.

As a pianist there is nothing I like better than to get my hands on a quality concert grand piano, however rare that is nowadays. Unfortunately I will never have the space or means to own one. Even so I still prefer my Yamaha upright to any digital. It's not necessarily the sound of individual notes or the action, more that it gives me feedback that I have never managed to get from a digital. In many ways it's inferior to the most modern and best digitals but I still get more enjoyment from it.

I also own two digitals. One is an old technics that I have in my teaching room and use to accompany students in two piano works as I only have one acoustic. The other is a stage piano that I take on gigs. Actually it's mainly classical stuff that I play on gigs and I've been glad of my digital when faced with some of the horrendous acoustics in hotels and small venues. At least I know where I am with the digital, everything works and it's in tune!

I think the main problem with acoustic pianos these days is price. I teach around fifty students and not one of them can get anywhere near being able to afford a nice grand piano. Even a decent upright costs an arm and a leg. So I find myself recommending digitals more and more and so far haven't noticed that they have been detrimental to my students playing.

That is an interesting comment. What is your price breakdown for acoustics vs digitals?

I feel that digitals have to be upgraded more often as technology improves, as for acoustics there is price of tunings as time goes on. Acoustic pianos don't have to be replaced as often either.

Can you do a price breakdown for acoustics? What price would be a "nice grand" or "decent upright" be for you? What other costs are there that are associated with owning an acoustic piano?

In the end I have to wonder if owning an digital piano is really less expensive than owning an acoustic piano.

I think the main problem with acoustic pianos these days is price. I teach around fifty students and not one of them can get anywhere near being able to afford a nice grand piano. Even a decent upright costs an arm and a leg. to my students .

Most definitely. The ap manufacturers have practically priced themselves out of the market....at least with respect to players, teachers or aspiring players.

I couldn't believe the price, new, for that high end Yamaha upright..the model # escapes me right now. But I think it was over 12K, for an upright !

The only way a quality grand for most is even remotely obtainable is by buying used. It's so tragic because you have so many great players (both pro and serious hobbyists), along with dedicated teachers that are SO deserving that might never have the means ( much less the space to put it in) to acquire something nice. I can't begin tell you how many gigs/private parties I've played over the years in people's homes on a high end instrument that is nothing more then a piece of furniture to them.

Given the prices I totally get why people are turning to digitals. Heck I paid only $13,250 + Ca. tax for my Yamaha C7E in 1985 from Fields Piano in Orange County. What do they go for, new, today for God's sakes ?! I'm not into cars at all, but I'm fairly certain you could buy a mid-priced Lexus for what a new C7 sells for.

I think the main problem with acoustic pianos these days is price. I teach around fifty students and not one of them can get anywhere near being able to afford a nice grand piano. Even a decent upright costs an arm and a leg. So I find myself recommending digitals more and more and so far haven't noticed that they have been detrimental to my students playing.

How advanced are your students (in terms of ABRSM grade), and are they playing classical music?

I've often wondered when I hear intermediate-standard young pianists playing who seem not to be able to voice chords properly, bring out melodies within textures etc. Everything sounds one-dimensional, their chording is opaque, they can't seem to play softly or balance melody against accompaniment, yet they evidently have finger dexterity from being well-practised, and maybe even well-taught, but possibly not having an adequate instrument to practise on. Their parents tell me they use a digital at home, so it can't be uneven action (inadequate, possibly yes) at fault. Unresponsiveness to touch, maybe?

_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

Oh, I'm not worried about it at all, peter. But I do find the OP's attitude to be rather condescending. Granted, everyone is entitled to an opinion, but when it's stated in such a way that is offensive or damaging it needs to be addressed. Perhaps I was hasty suggesting that the OP is a troll. Maybe he's just immature.

This discussion is an absurd waste of time. An absurd, wasteful rant that adds positively nothing to any conversation. The idea is not to replace but to present a suitable alternative. The premises are all flawed. Starting from the argument that folks would choose a DP over an AP given no space, time, logistic or monetary constraints is just fish bait. Go back to your pianos and play folks. Leave the negative ninny rants to pros like the OP. He just opened the door, yelled fire, and ran for the hills. I feel like a fish.

I don't think anyone will disagree that no digital can replace a genuine, well maintained concert grand for it's touch, character and tonality.

Sure, but I don't think anyone will disagree that no acoustic piano can replace a modern digital piano or synth for it's versatility, choice of timbres, ease of maintenance, and usefulness as a music production tool.

In fact I would suggest that in todays world, the acoustic piano is a very specialized instrument, particularly suited for the classical niche genres. For most modern and/or popular music genres is it simply not (any longer) as usefulas modern electronic keyboard instruments.

The only way a quality grand for most is even remotely obtainable is by buying used. It's so tragic because you so many great players (both pro and serious hobbyists) and teachers that are deserving that might never have the means to acquire something nice. I can't begin tell you how many gigs/private parties I've played over the years in people's homes on a high end instrument that is nothing more then a piece of furniture to them.

Two years ago, I helped out a rather well-off family looking for a new baby grand for their little daughter. We met for the first time when they saw me playing in Steinway Hall, and they asked me to help them with their quest, because they didn't play and knew nothing about pianos. (They eventually ended up buying a K.Kawai because the dealer offered the best discount).

The parents appeared to have little interest in music and when I visited them on the day the piano was delivered, I began to get an inkling of what their principal interest in buying the piano was, when the father seemed more interested in admiring the piano from the other end of the room, in relation to the the other furniture, than in how the piano sounded in the room. And then, warning bells sounded in my brain when I suggested that they get a teacher for their daughter so that she could learn to play properly, but they said they'd think about it. Instead, they watched in admiration when the six-year-old sat down and picked out a few notes with one finger......

Still, hoping to get the whole family inspired, I gave them some CDs of mainly light/tuneful classical piano music (Fur Elise, Wedding Day at Troldhaugen, Moonlight Sonata -1, 'Elvira Madigan' etc) which were unwanted gifts I'd acquired over the years, and played some music for them on their new piano.

I'd forgotten about them until a recent post in the Piano Forum jogged my memory, and decided to give them a ring yesterday to see how they were enjoying their piano......

The wife told me that they decided not to bother with a teacher after all, the little girl had lost interest in playing, the father was picking out the odd pop tune on it occasionally, and after the initial free tuning, they hadn't bothered with any more.

But the piano is still a lovely piece of furniture, and polished regularly .

_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

One thing the OP said rings true: digitals are often overhyped. On the other hand, acoustics tend to be overhyped as well. Corporations have marketing departments specifically to overhype their products.

Every instrument needs to be adapted to. It seems that great players sound great because they know how to adapt to the instrument. Take it with a grain of salt. The OP made a blanket condemnation of DP's based on a visit to a retailer. I remember seeing that video here not too long ago(sorry I can't remember specifics) of a Pianist just wailing a classical piece on what appeared to be a Yamaha 120. The piano was bouncing a bit, but he was incredible on that 10 year old slab!

My students range from beginner to grade 8 abrsm so I have the full range of abilities. The more advanced ones do tend to own acoustic pianos but not always what I would consider to be good ones. Mostly grey market yamahas or kawais which are fine and one has recently bought a new Chinese instrument by kingsburg. None have the space or budget for a grand. But then neither did I and yet I made it through to post grad at conservatoire and have given many recitals. When I left home to study at college I had access to great pianos but all I had up until then was a small upright.

When new students ask about instruments they usually have a small budget in mind as they don't want to waste money on something that might end up not being used. A decent upright to me would cost at least 3k pounds sterling. The other day I was looking at the current range of yamahas in London and prices for a U1 were around 6k ranging to 18k for an SU7. The smaller grands started around 15k from what I recall. But parents of kids I teach want to spend hundreds, not thousands. If that's all you can afford then digital is the way to go. Spend less than a thousand on an acoustic and it will be firewood.

I don't think anyone will disagree that no digital can replace a genuine, well maintained concert grand for it's touch, character and tonality.

Sure, but I don't think anyone will disagree that no acoustic piano can replace a modern digital piano or synth for it's versatility, choice of timbres, ease of maintenance, and usefulness as a music production tool.

In fact I would suggest that in todays world, the acoustic piano is a very specialized instrument, particularly suited for the classical niche genres. For most modern and/or popular music genres is it simply not (any longer) as usefulas modern electronic keyboard instruments.

For sure, I was replying to him in the context of using a DP as a piano alternative for classical players.

I think there clearly are two different user bases of DPs, one who are seeking an acoustic replacement (for whatever reason) and wishes the piano to be as close to the real thing as possible, and there are ones who use DPs as an instrument category in its own right.

My students range from beginner to grade 8 abrsm so I have the full range of abilities. The more advanced ones do tend to own acoustic pianos but not always what I would consider to be good ones. Mostly grey market yamahas or kawais which are fine and one has recently bought a new Chinese instrument by kingsburg. None have the space or budget for a grand. But then neither did I and yet I made it through to post grad at conservatoire and have given many recitals. When I left home to study at college I had access to great pianos but all I had up until then was a small upright.

When new students ask about instruments they usually have a small budget in mind as they don't want to waste money on something that might end up not being used. A decent upright to me would cost at least 3k pounds sterling. The other day I was looking at the current range of yamahas in London and prices for a U1 were around 6k ranging to 18k for an SU7. The smaller grands started around 15k from what I recall. But parents of kids I teach want to spend hundreds, not thousands. If that's all you can afford then digital is the way to go. Spend less than a thousand on an acoustic and it will be firewood.

Do you (or your students) read 'Pianist' magazine? In issue 65 (May-June 2012), the Steinmayer S108 was mentioned, costing £2090, voted as the 'best entry-level piano' by The Guardian, and as 'one of the ten best pianos' by The Independent in 2010. I can't vouch for its quality, not having played it myself, but it's significant that when Pianist went on to review acoustic uprights (as a group) in issue 67, only acoustics of over £5000 were considered - but DPs costing less than £2000 were also considered in another review.

I too only had a small vertical until I left home to go to boarding school, where the practice rooms had decent uprights. And at university, also the same Yamaha uprights in their practice rooms. I never played on a grand until my diploma exam...

_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

I used to subscribe to 'pianist' but haven't read it for a while. Never tried the steinmeyer, to be honest here in the midlands there are not many piano dealers to choose from. The kingsburg I mentioned is probably similar although it was taller and cost a little more. I played it and it was fine.

But like I said, most people think they should be spending about 200 to 300, at least at first. For this money you can pick up a used clavinova to get started with. I help them find these on the used market. Second hand acoustics are more difficult and bargains are becoming few and far between. I have never bought a brand new acoustic piano and probably never will, I just can't afford it.

There is! I use it only for that select few who have proved that it is never worth hearing from them. Just left-click on the offender's name, select View Profile, and then click the radio button that says Ignore this User.

Give your blood pressure a few minutes to go down, and you're good from then on.

As for the question of whether digitals are junk--- it's at best overbroad, and can hardly be answered with any fairness. Some models are, others are really pretty good. Every instrument has its failings, including the AP. But it sounds like our OP might be happier with one. Personally, I have both and love both--- and I think it is very mean to compare the DP with those nasty spinets, which offer integrity in neither touch, sound, nor appearance. The better DPs can say more for themselves, and even the more modest ones serve the needs of those among us with a limited price point range (I still have my first one, in a closet).

I understand that an aftermarket program has found a use for worn-out spinets: constructing artificial reefs. It's a spinoff program, discovered when it was found that spinets really don't make very good boat anchors.

My students range from beginner to grade 8 abrsm so I have the full range of abilities. The more advanced ones do tend to own acoustic pianos but not always what I would consider to be good ones. Mostly grey market yamahas or kawais which are fine and one has recently bought a new Chinese instrument by kingsburg. None have the space or budget for a grand. But then neither did I and yet I made it through to post grad at conservatoire and have given many recitals. When I left home to study at college I had access to great pianos but all I had up until then was a small upright.

When new students ask about instruments they usually have a small budget in mind as they don't want to waste money on something that might end up not being used. A decent upright to me would cost at least 3k pounds sterling. The other day I was looking at the current range of yamahas in London and prices for a U1 were around 6k ranging to 18k for an SU7. The smaller grands started around 15k from what I recall. But parents of kids I teach want to spend hundreds, not thousands. If that's all you can afford then digital is the way to go. Spend less than a thousand on an acoustic and it will be firewood.

Lets take the 3k pounds example, buying a 3k pounds upright and play it for 10 years, it would still be a keeper. However if you buy a top of the line 3k pound yamaha cp1 stage piano, no way you will keep it after 10 years the advances in technology would have made it obsolete long ago. Replacing the digital would mean paying more money, making more expensive than buying an acoustical piano in the first place.

The only way a quality grand for most is even remotely obtainable is by buying used. It's so tragic because you so many great players (both pro and serious hobbyists) and teachers that are deserving that might never have the means to acquire something nice. I can't begin tell you how many gigs/private parties I've played over the years in people's homes on a high end instrument that is nothing more then a piece of furniture to them.

Two years ago, I helped out a rather well-off family looking for a new baby grand for their little daughter. We met for the first time when they saw me playing in Steinway Hall, and they asked me to help them with their quest, because they didn't play and knew nothing about pianos. (They eventually ended up buying a K.Kawai because the dealer offered the best discount).

The parents appeared to have little interest in music and when I visited them on the day the piano was delivered, I began to get an inkling of what their principal interest in buying the piano was, when the father seemed more interested in admiring the piano from the other end of the room, in relation to the the other furniture, than in how the piano sounded in the room. And then, warning bells sounded in my brain when I suggested that they get a teacher for their daughter so that she could learn to play properly, but they said they'd think about it. Instead, they watched in admiration when the six-year-old sat down and picked out a few notes with one finger......

Still, hoping to get the whole family inspired, I gave them some CDs of mainly light/tuneful classical piano music (Fur Elise, Wedding Day at Troldhaugen, Moonlight Sonata -1, 'Elvira Madigan' etc) which were unwanted gifts I'd acquired over the years, and played some music for them on their new piano.

I'd forgotten about them until a recent post in the Piano Forum jogged my memory, and decided to give them a ring yesterday to see how they were enjoying their piano......

The wife told me that they decided not to bother with a teacher after all, the little girl had lost interest in playing, the father was picking out the odd pop tune on it occasionally, and after the initial free tuning, they hadn't bothered with any more.

But the piano is still a lovely piece of furniture, and polished regularly .

I posted right after Christmas in the Piano forum about playing a post Christmas party at an older couple's home on a Fazioli 212. Neither one played...of course At least they were into having it maintained and did very much appreciate good music. It was so rare to encounter that on a gig.

Many, many wealthy folks just view their Steinway/Bosendorfer/Yamaha/Kawai as just another acquisition among their *toys* meant to impress their other well to do friends. A good 90% of the time that piano is used for strictly background ambience. I could be playing on my old Yamaha P120 and I'd bet my house most wouldn't notice the difference in sound.