Posted
by
michael
on Wednesday September 04, 2002 @08:58AM
from the drm-not-mentioned-but-probably-present dept.

jivany writes "Linux based set-top box being offered by Sony that has a broadband internet connection and may offer the option of being programmed from a cell phone." Japan-only for now. There's an article in Japanese with assorted photos and screenshots.

Poll Sugestion:
Megaseism occurs
You are flurried intently
You evacuate calmly
The machine is raised from the floor
It escapes with note
Ignoring, hack continuation
In bulletin board commemoration entry
Already, it is useless.
The bnez searching, 3 thousand villages

A chip is not a system. My laptop is "just a Pentium, a calculator on a chip", but not surprisingly, IBM had to do quite a bit of work to turn it into the A31 IBM Thinkpad from heat management to bus architecture to software integration to external I/O management to... well, there's quite a lot.

I'm not any kind of grammar nazi, but decent spelling and grammar are important to me. The occasional affect/effect problem doesn't bother me (it just lowers my opinion of the author), but when a piece is riddled with errors (there/they're/their, its/it's, then/than, etc..) it's hard for me to read. Partially, I think this is because I sight read and I don't subvocalize. In other words, when I see, "It's over their," in print the first thing I think is, "It's over their what? Is it hovering over their kitchen counter? Is it over their heads? What is this person trying to say?" Of course, I don't just sit there pondering those questions (it only takes a split second to see there was a grammar error in the sentence), but I can't read as quickly when every few lines my eyes flick back to an earlier word.

Maybe I'm just hypersensitive. I don't know. If you don't know what I'm talking about though, check out this piece [npgmusicclub.com] by Prince. It doesn't have very many grammar problems, but the "creative" spelling is really distracting.

The Dish Network PVR is exactly what I was looking for. The DirectTiVo does a D/A conversion of the signal coming from the receiver, then a A/D conversion to store the picture on the hard disk. Sure that lets you select different quality levels, but with the size of drives these days...

On the other hand the Dish Network PVRs (which also run Linux) store the raw encrypted satalite stream to disk, then pass it to the decoder when you go to watch it just like it was coming off the air. The two units I've seen offered by Dish also have a 30 second skip button right on the remote. Sure they don't have all the features of the ReplayTV, but there are USB ports on the Dish box, and people have gotten USB-to-Ethernet adaptors to work on them with a hacked box.

Um, not quite. What is usually refered to as the DirecTivo box does no D/A-A/D coversion until sending a signal (MPEG decode) out to the TV. It records the raw MPEG 2 stream as it is received from the dish just as you described for the Dish PVR. DirecTivo has no quality level choices and records the audio that is provided by the dish (PCM, DD 5.1, etc.) Actually, it has two DirecTV tuners allowing you to record two shows while watching a pre-recorded third.

You are probably already aware of the extensive hacking that can be done to the Tivos so I won't go into the broadband options available.

What you are probably refering to is the standalone Tivo.

Not saying it is better or worse than the Dish PVR that you bought (which I'm not that familiar with).

Wish I had known that. The person I talked to was saying exactly what I repeated. Seemed right as I knew the Tivo encoded MPEG2 from the cable tuner.

How about this, do you have to pay for the Tivo service on top of the satalite service?

That is one thing the DishPVR stores the normal program guide that comes from the sat service. But it isn't limited to being stored in RAM like most sat tuners (I know the Tivo stores it's guide on disk), so there is always 7 days of data available.

The DishPVR 721 has two tuners, so can do the same thing, record two shows, while watching another from the disk. I think the drive is 120MB, it is about 90 hours of total recording time.

As someone else said, the DishPVR doesn't have an encoder at all, so no recording of off-the-air, or cable. But there are no off-the-air stations around me, and I got the dish so I wouldn't have to deal with the horrid cable company (who's service goes down each month, as the price goes up). So I didn't even consider that feature.

Also the DishPVR has a feature to control a VCR to automaticly dump recorded programs to tape. I also don't have a VCR so I didn't care about that feature.

They seem to be about the same. All in all, I'm happy so I guess it doesn't matter.

Tivo service, as of Nov 1, 2002, is $4.99/month on top of your DirecTV service, unless you have their high-end programming package, then it is free.

Tivo stores program guide data from sat too (10 days of data). Two tuners, but no mpeg encoder. Tivo also has a save-to-VCR feature.

The new DirecTV-tivo box (due out this month) will be $199, 40 GB drive (about 35 hours), USB 2.0.

I'm not familiar with the DishPVR but it does sound very similar to Tivo. Tivo's best feature in my opinion is the Season Pass, which records every episode of a particular show on a particular channel, so you never have to miss your favorite show even if they change the time on you.

The DirectTiVo does a D/A conversion of the signal coming from the receiver, then a A/D conversion to store the picture on the hard disk

Incorrect. The DirectTivo's directly record the DirecTV mpeg2 stream directly to the hard drive. There is no mpeg2 encoder in the Directivo box, which is why you can record cable or OTA broadcasts using the DirectTivo. Get informed before you start spreading misinformation.

The DirectTiVo does a D/A conversion of the signal coming from the receiver, then a A/D conversion to store the picture on the hard disk. Sure that lets you select different quality levels, but with the size of drives these days...

Nope, DirecTiVo records the stream directly, with no quality options at all. The only way to have what you're describing happen is if you have a seperate DirecTV receiver and TiVo.

This makes it sound like Cocoon is the first Linux based PVR, or the fact that it is Linux makes it newsworthy (this may not be the case, but its how I percieved it).TiVo [tivo.com] is a linux-based PVR.

I'm sure Sony has just released several new TVs but there hasn't been much innovation in TV design lately. back when there were only a small handful of HDTVs a NEW HDTV with features that weren't available on other HDTVs was considered news worthy....it'll pass as PVRs become more comman place and folks get bored of hearing about the newest ones. But for now we'll just have to live with the odd story on/....you know you don't HAVE to read the story if the headline doesn't interest you right?

Right, but isn't the interest in the story the fact that it uses Linux? It's even mentioned specifically in the article that Sony chose Linux/MIPS over WinTel, that what makes it/. worthy, not necessarily that it's YAPVR.

AFAIK nobody uses Wintel for a PVR. ReplayTV uses the VXWorks operating system, on MIPS R3000 if I remember correctly. I agree, it's the "oh my GOD it uses LINUX that's SOO COOOL" angle that made it a headline.

BTW this is quite a parallel to the fact that Linux sucks so utterly as a desktop environment - who cares what the end-user features are or whether anyone would want to use this PVR, it's got Linux in it therefore it must be good. Corollary: if it has Linux in it, everyone should want to use it, full stop - never mind whether it has any worthwhile end-user features. And they wonder why Linux is having such a hard time winning over end-users.

And of course there's the fact that this is Just Another TiVo, which already was Linux-based. What a classic example of sucky/. culture.

The US market will not accept this. It is great for us geeks, but the average Joe off the street won't buy it. If they did, then thinkgeek would be rolling in the money, and microsoft's PVR/webtv crap would be selling.

Just because it has linux as it's OS doesn't mean it will do well, especially in the US, where there isn't a market for it.

That's true, linux cannot be the only selling factor for a device and expect it to do well.

Then again, it can be an added bonus if the other features are done well, the Sharp Zaurus [zaurus.com] being a great example. I don't own one just because it runs linux (there are a number of other linux-driven pda's), but the fact that it has a CF slot, MMC/SD slot, and a built in keyboard, all for around $350, ~and~ it's running linux all combine to make one great product.

I don't think that making it Linux to sell more was Sony's intention. I think, as the article mentions, it was to make the profit margins better by avoiding hefty MS licensing fees. Having to pay MS a fee per box sold would cut too deep. I'm guessing that, as already mentioned, they just tweak and repackaged TiVo, that TiVo's licensing fee was OK with Sony.

I really don't think Sony has a particular pro- or anti-Linux bent, its just about the $$.

New price: $899.99 (but the service price is broken out. even if you want to add the up-front cost back in, it is still $100.00 cheaper than is was last week. This price is for an equal (160 hour) system. You can get the smallest one (40) for $350.00 now.

The point is that a major manufacturer has now endorsed the concept of connected pvr's (and Sony of all people). No one said that Sony has discovered fire, just that they've done something that currently no other major CE manufacturer has done.

This is from Sony (PS2 fighting xbox) not from Sony(member of the RIAA).

Think of it as less like Jean Luc and more of JTK and his evil transporter-accident twin. Two components of the whole, just one is a lot more fun at parties (the type of parties you go to determins which one is more fun).

SONY loaded 2 systems of the ground wave tuner and the MPEG-2 encoder, Ethernet built-in 160GB HDD video recorder " CSV-E77 " is sold on November 1st. Price is open price, but as for shop front expectation price the possibility of 13 ten thousand Yen. The monthly output quantity has planned 5 thousand units.

The CSV-E77 foam/home AV gateway product group " CoCoon " of regular connection type network functional loading which the same company lectures (the C$onnected Community ON Network) becomes the 1st feature product. In addition, the 80GB HDD and HDD which is sold in May video recorder " CSV-S55 " which builds in 56kbps modem (the channel server) it is the superior model. Because of that, term of endearment has become the " channel server ".

2 systems of the ground wave tuner and the MPEG-2 encoder it had to load the largest strengthening point as a hardware. Because of this, even while videotaping it views the program of the channel which is different, reservation video recording while executing, it is possible to videotape the program which is in the midst of viewing.

In addition, the program which is reserved by hand and, entrust 2 programs repeating the program of thing and the same time zone which videotape the program of video recording simultaneously by hand, estimate it is possible also to omit. However, unless when starting the video recording it has entered stand-by state, reservation of 2 programs is not executed simultaneously. Furthermore, there is no ghost reduction function, does not load the BS analog tuner.

Bit rate was pulled up with the 9mbps/6mbps/3mbps respectively. Furthermore, compilation function this time is not loaded.

Already, as for one big strengthening point, network interface, from 56kbps modem, had to be modified to the Ethernet. Because of that, network function is utilized, regular connected environment becomes prerequisite.

As a network function, the CSV-S55 in the same way the channel server user private home page " ???! The my caster " is used. With this sight, " @ (at) video recording reservation " service and, " for record 2 keyword renewal service is offered entrusts * roundly ". Furthermore, it is possible also to renew the firmware by way of the network, also functional addition and the like is planned.

When " @ video recording reservation is used (at)", the portable telephone ahead going out (I mode, the J-SKY and EZweb correspondence) and, from the personal computer video recording reservation becomes possible. In the private page which is on the WEB log in it does by the personal computer, or the portable telephone registers program reservation.

As for service plan, free " BASIC plan " and, 300 Yen / 2 types of month " economy plan " are prepared. As for difference of both @ with only video recording reservation, " @ the video recording reservation LE ", economy plan " @ video recording reservation SE " can utilize BASIC plan. As for the difference of the LE and DX, at the frequency which connects to the reservation server, as for the LE 1 day 2 time, with DX 1 time, connecting to the server in shortest 10 minutes, you verify reservation.

In addition, directly from the CSV-E77 the ???! It reached the point where the home page of the my caster can be perused. Then, the contents of news and the forecasting et cetera are planned.

With the software, it is feature of the channel server, " entrusts * roundly record ", to " was strengthened record 2 entrusts * roundly ". Entrusts * roundly record program genre of the taste, just sets keyword and one time time zone, the program chart (the EPG) from to do searching the program which is based on condition, the function which it keeps videotaping automatically.

Until recently calling keyword from program information of the program which is in the midst of viewing, in addition to the keyword of 44 types which SONY prepares in the same way, besides the fact that it can set, it corresponded to also the manual input by the software keyboard. Furthermore, whether or not the male is completed program liked, question is done, in the taste, you say the program where to that also information of reservation video recording and elimination protection is added, from is videotaped also " the male be completed it loads algorithm ".

Furthermore, keyword of 44 types 1 time is renewed in 1 month by way of network. At present the Ethenet the ???! Functioning has done in only connection to the my caster, it does not modify direct setting from the personal computer outside, does not look at image and/or with cannot say.

As a playback function, " multiple loop view " was loaded. It classifies the program which was videotaped into 9 categories such as movie, music and sport automatically. It adds there, the program which is in the midst of broadcasting as one category, just like the channel of the television, changing, it can see.

View mode, while looking at the playback picture, can select program " normal view mode ", plays back image " high-speed preview mode ", can look through program name has 3 types of " list view " with 360 time speed.

Furthermore, the ground wave EPG is not modified with the G guide system which the gem star developed from the CSV-S55, also announcement indication is done. In addition, it loads " TV pause function & flash " function. Continuing from the scene which it stops at one time even with the program which presently is broadcasted, after cancellation it has stopped, it is possible to view. Furthermore, the scene which the program which is in the midst of broadcasting overlooks, whenever the flash key of remote control (minus) you push, going back time $dm 15 seconds, playing back it is possible. Furthermore, list function of the audio attachment of 1.5 times and 2 times et cetera does not have.

The 160GB HDD increasing, also the service which it makes the 320GB is planned, but start time, both price undecided. Furthermore, channel server similar, " user itself as for conversion doing the impossibility (the same company) with is the HDD first ".

As for the CPU with the MIPS 350MHz, as for the OS the Linux is adopted. As for external size 430×360×79mm (width x depth x height), weight approximately 6.5kg. Because it can select the remote control cord/code from 3 types, it can use properly the plural stands.

At the same company, there is the respective merit demerits " in the HDD and the record type DVD this time, concerning the reason which does not load the record type DVD. Proper thing you think future line-up development. But, still HDD video recording it is splendid, you thought under the present conditions which are not acknowledged, it informs about that thoroughly and the ? wants this time made only the HDD ", it has explained.

I really don't think it's a "big step", I think it just reveals how big and ponderous that corporation is. On the other hand, I'd bet this hardware is set up to recognize all kinds of "broadcast flags" and other such nonsense.

Sony, of course, are in the interesting position of potentially making a profit from "copyright" sales and from devices that enable users to do things that rights holders don't like.

Last year they made profits on music film and games and losses on technology.

However the market size for the latter is at least an Order of Magnitude bigger. Sony can't be unaware that DRM technologies are likely to stifle the growth of these devices (and could lead to lower revenues on sales of film and music in the bargain).

How they try to resolve the problem, economically and organisationally, is going to be interesting to watch.

bulletproof [upenn.edu]' Kevlar vests. First they came out with these awesome vests made of their patented material. All the cops got them. Then a while later, special Teflon-coated bullets hit the streets that could penetrate the vests. Know who makes Teflon? DuPont [teflon.com]. But somehow Ice-T got in trouble for just singing a song called CopKiller [bayarea.com] while DuPont profits off the actual technology of killing cops.

Hardly, they sell cd-rw, dvd-r, vcr's as well. What's so new about this. They tout the ability to copy mp3's off the net onto their mini disc players. This is nothing new from a corp. position standpoint. They are first and foremost a CE company, having the content means that they yield more leverage in the CE space overall. They are constantly playing both sides of the court when it comes to IP, and yes, they often times compromise more on their hardware because of it (PS2 being the perfect example).

This box is actually based on the TiVo software, it just doesn't use the TiVo service. TiVoPony has said that there is a possibility this box could be released in the States, where TiVo service is available.

Here [tivocommunity.com] is a link to a discussion of this box on the TiVo Community Forum.

I was shocked at the price (~1,100$ US). Who is willing to pay that much to watch TV. I dont watch much TV, and even if I did, I wouldnt pay that much damn money! Why purchase something like this when you can get DVDs for around 10$ a piece. Seems like an overpriced dust collector to me.

I think the interesting part of that article is that they mention that future models may include DVD recording... this from a company who's pushing copy protection and DRM in the music world... guess it's because Sony doesn't produce as much TV content.

The way most things are going they should allow you to have a secured web interface on the PVR to allow you to configure it from the internet or using a direct dialin connection. I also haven't seen any pictures but if it is expandable to 320GB it's probably not going to fit on a tv.

Just becuase it runs on a version of linux doesn't make it special, now if they gave you the option to install whatever os you wanted and set it up the way you want, that would be different.

Just becuase it runs on a version of linux doesn't make it special, now if they gave you the option to install whatever os you wanted and set it up the way you want, that would be different.

This is obviously a troll, but on the off chance you actually don't understand what the word embedded means, I'll fill you in.

Sony isn't selling you a PC. They're selling a set top box. They didn't choose Linux because they hate MS (what OS comes preinstalled on VAIO?) they chose Linux because of technical and financial considerations. If they sold you a box and said, "Ok, now go install your OS and your PVR software," then no one would buy it.

Obviously you can hack the device and put on whatever OS you want. But that's not Sony's concern.

I can't wait to see the fine print on this and other future Sony PVRs.

"Sony retains the right to update firmware automaticaly, replace it with Windows without disclosure if it so pleases, track your information for Sony's marketing departments, and limit number of downloads that are not paid purchases of Sony digital media. If Sony wishes to change this agreement in any way, you are to praise them for protecting you from the true axis of evil: yourself."

Funny you should mention that. I have a buddy (actually my gf's best friend) who works for Sony and we hung out over labor day. The Sony TiVo came up because I was thinking of buying from him since he gets a NICE employee discount.

Anyways, he suggested I hold off because Sony still isn't sure about the Tivo idea. Maybe this is why? They want to make a Sony version and just license the tech from TiVo.

The other thing he mentioned is that with a company the size of Sony, the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing half the time. I have a feeling this is the case. One business unit can make money with a tivo whilst it may directly compete with another business unit.

I'm quite sure this is the case with most largish global umbrella companies.

What looks like a fan is clearly visible in the photo of the back of the unit here [impress.co.jp].

I'll be interesting to see how noisy the box is -I for one wouldn't want to fork out $1000 if it sounds like a vacuum cleaner.

Even if it it reasonably quiet, it can't be silent. Surely the future is in solutions that network home appliances like this to a box with lots of hard disks and fans that can sit making as much noise as it likes, so long as it's not in the living room where I want to listen to my music? It would make the prices of things drop significantly, too.

I've got a Tivo at home, and replaced the drive inside with a larger one, and added a second large drive. (both Western Digital 5400RPM drives.)

By design, Tivo is always recording *something* so both drives are always going, and there's a 3" fan in the back.

I.Can't.Hear.It.

The fan in the back spins slowly, so you don't get the "whirr" like you do with a standard PC fan. The brackets for the HDs are pretty well isolated with rubber grommits so the drives' vibrations don't transfer to the chassis.

Seriously, my TV on mute makes more noise than the Tivo does.

This thing is designed for A/V setups. Ambient noise(or vibration) is not a problem.

My Tivo is currentally in my bedroom, and I have no problems sleeping with the thing whirring away. I can't say that about my PC, or even my laptop.

I really dunno if I could deal with this. Part of the reason I live away from my family/parents is so that I don't have to deal with them causing guilt trips for things they've done/bought for me. And anyway, I end up dealing with it every christmas, birthday, et cetera.

"I'm sorry you didn't like the Britney Spears revue Dave. But what has the DVD player ever done for you?"

The headline being Japan, I figured it would be about a Tivo that would pipe recorded video to your cell phone so you could watch on the subway while going to work! Aren't they supposed to be years ahead of us?:)

This will lead to lots of publicity for pvr but more visibility for pvr's is not necessarily a Good Thing. Why? Because one thing that has prevented Them from cracking down is that the installed user base is so small.

But rest assured They will if Sony is successful, either by trying to ban pvr's as we know them outright, legislating for restrictive technology on the insides, or splattering movies, sports events, news, etc with commericals during the actual broadcast.

Assuming they actually do broadcast commercial announcements at, say, the bottom of the screen, the only way to fight back will be to mask off the screen with cardboard or some similar material.

I suspect there will be a change of biz model to a pay per use and it will happen so fast our heads will spin. So we'll end up paying for the cable and also paying for all content.And then it's only a matter of time until they add commercials to the content you've already paid for.

Would it be absurd to imagine broadcast companies cushioning the blow of hdtv recording equip by inserting ads on the sides of the screen for 16:9 viewers on a 4:3 program?

That's actually a pretty good idea (good in the sense of creative and neat, not good in the sense of, well, good), but it'd be absurdly expensive. Wanna know why?

Regular old analog SDTV programs get upconverted to HDTV with a box that takes SDI* in and outputs HD-SDI at 1080i (or 720p). It's a fairly simple box, usually one rack unit high. Snell & Wilcox makes several models.

To upconvert a composited picture, though, would be a much more complex task. The device would have to take in SDI for the main picture, like it does now, and also a number of additional SDI inputs for the ad windows. The upconverter would have to scale and position the ad windows on the unused part of a 704 x 480 raster, then upconvert the whole thing. That's a much harder job than just upconverting 640 x 480 to 1920 x 1080, meaning the upconverters would have to be much more expensive, offsetting any revenue gains to be had from selling the new ads.

So I wouldn't worry about it too much.

*SDI = Serial Digital Interface, a digital signal standard for SDTV. HD-SDI is the same thing, basically, but for HD. Both are uncompressed and run over coaxial cables.

> Would it be absurd to imagine broadcast companies cushioning the blow of hdtv recording equip by inserting ads on the sides of the screen for 16:9 viewers on a 4:3 program?

1) Great disincentive for anyone to buy a 16:9 TV.

2) You think that once they started, they'd ever stop?

3) The slow adoption of 16:9 would even give them an excuse to continue broadcasting 4:3 with ads forever. "Well, we can't leave all those 4:3 folks in the dirt by broadcasting in 16:9 - better to broadcast in 4:3 for another 20 years and sell more sidebanner-ads!"

Creative idea, yes. Horrible and intruive for the conumer, yes. Probability of it happening: E_UNDEFINED.

(Media executives are unlikely to come up with creative solutions, but highly likely to come up with horrible intrusive ones. Probability is therefore, umm, divide-by-fish and carry the fnord?)

Linux PVR is nothing new but look at the unit's plethora of input and output ports. I can't read japanese but from the pics it looks like it has 2 HD ports, 2 component video outs and 2 ins, optical audio out, ethernet and normal svideo and audio io. If I am not mistaken, you can access the box via web browser...I would love to connect to it from work and schedule "tapings" of programs. (I usually find out about good shows on tv from my coworkers and friends and it would be nice to bookmark them before I forget)

panasonic (i think its panasonic, dont remember precisely) makes one in japan. at least i see it advertised on the JR lines all the time: record to hard disk or burn to dvd, and accepts digital pictures through compact flash pc card adapter, too.

They give a quote for how many hours it can record of HDTV. But it gives no info of how the unit deals with it. Does it stay digital, does it get converted back and forth, and does this thing have any fricken copy prevention crap.

The great thing about this one is support for HDTV. There are severl "roll your own" options for HDTV PVR's. But, this will be the first off the shelf version (assuming it beats The Dish Network's HD PVR to market in the U.S.).

If it supports satellite TV reception, I will be first in line for one of these things.

If not, I will probably stick with my HDTV PCI card, homebrew PVR. Even though it's Windows based, it is an open usage system, which allows more flexibility than a closed system that I assume Sony would provide.

As others have noted, ReplayTV can already do most if not all of this. I believe ReplayTV even allows you to program recordings/manage it over the web (and therefore from a PDA or phone...). Furthermore, they do not impose unnecessary restrictions on their users -- they allow program sharing over the broadband connection and automatic commercial skipping.

Why isn't ReplayTV more of a player? They seem a distant second to TiVo... or any new PVR that another company puts out. Are people afraid that they won't last against the possible legal litigation? Are they just too expensive (my excuse... for now)? Is the mandatory broadband connection holding them back?

I would think ReplayTV would be the darling of Slashdot. Are they not running Linux on their boxes or what?;)

Well here comes Sony again. Do we trust them and their proprietary formats? Is this system going to be open to playing/tweaking. Tivo doesn't officially encourage it but they don't stop you either. Sony's interest lie in content protection as many of the coments from the article [slashdot.org] will attest to. If you slashdotters are serious in promoting their "fair use" rights then they shouldn't forget them just becasue a company that disagrees with them comes out with a new toy.