Whatever your political persuasion, defend your corner here. All we ask is that you voice YOUR opinion, rather than just post a link to a half-hour youtube video. Politics can get a bit lively, and if you prefer a less combative debate, please post in the Politics for Moderates section instead.

Jon
I feel as free if not more free in the EU as I did before we joined so really cannot understand where your coming from. I and my family can travel, work, reside or be educated in other member countries; opportunities that were not available to my generation and now you and fellow leavers have voted to have it taken away from us all for sovereignty which after all means different things to different people.
At least Remainers voted for something that is tangible and not wishful thinking and fanciful in this day and age. To use past wars and sacrifice as an argument for leaving the EU is an argument I could use for remaining, we lost family and my father suffered all his life from debilitating illness after serving in the war.
Billions of Euros were directed to where it was needed by the EU, yes it may of been UK money but would it have been spent by British governments where it was needed; I don't think so?

Jim, there was nothing stopping anyone from traveling, working,residing- or being educated in European countries before the EU- you talk as if the UK was then part of the USSR.
Best we agree to differ as regards the past conflicts- thank God others did make huge sacrifices, or we wouldn’t be having this conversation!
Jon.

Jon
I used to work in Europe and it wasn't anything like you make out, you needed work permits which were difficult to get hold of and once the job was finished you had to leave the country. You couldn't stay and look for another job and reside as you suggest. Education was limited to those who could afford it and there were few overseas opportunities as there were after joining the EU until deciding to leave.
You are making sweeping statements without any experience of what it was really like. I do have experience of life on the front line believe it or not, you don't have to be in the Military to experience it.
As I said, the social benefits for Joe Public are much better being part of the EU, sovereignty and autonomy don't put food on the table.
Jim

Jim B- I thought it funny that I, a knuckle-dragging leaver, spent the afternoon in the beautiful countryside enjoying the sunshine, the wildflowers and birds, while you were reclining on your couch with rattle, flat cap and red wine- [no brown and mild for you!!]- watching the soccer. Surely wrong way round!!
P.S. Firefly- not only is it not over yet- it hasn't even started! Brexit is only a symptom.
Jon.

I have yet to see anyone on here laud the EU, but many having loads to say negative about it.

Similarly, I have seen most laud the UK, and I and a few notable others, are the only ones to criticise it. Maybe from negative experiences or from realism that any form of government is pretty much open to question.

I have seen HiC and Jim B both say that the EU is not a utopia, but the best option for the UK. I.e. loads of faults, but more positives than negatives.

The people who denigrate the EU generally regard it as some unelected behemoth we have no control over - much like Rees-Mogg did, before admitting the UK can’t veto almost anything within it..... So perhaps we are as powerful within it as any and as guilty as any of the problems within it ...

>Dominic..jeba ..in my opinion the point of the thread is obvious. The title should give people a clue..or are some folk just being obtuse here.
In the first line we have..."Well, just when certain individuals on here like to think otherwise, maybe the glorious EU is not so glorious after all".
.....

....So though I cannot speak for Apus Apus my opinion is that the point of this thread, including links, that some, including you Dominic, apparently find so hard to grasp, is that all is not so "rosy" in the EU and some of it's member states.

However, the special reference to Germany makes it a bit less obvious to see his point. It would be a banality to merely state that the EU (or Germany) isn´t without problems. A bit like stating that it´s darker at night than during the day.

Maybe the OP could clarify whether he just wanted to point out what everybody knew anyway or whether he wanted to make a different point?

Ronk
You make generalisations without any real insight to the reasoning of why people like me left the UK through necessity due to all our heavy industry either being sold off or shut down due to Thatchers policies of turning the UK into a service sector.

Well, I'm pretty neutral (not really pretty at my age!) and I've posted for both camps. However, it seems to me, at this time, that the UK is unfit to govern itself with its shambolic performance and internecine splits in the parties. At the same time, the EU is smoothly conducting its business, calmly and with measure.