Visigoth wrote:The part I don't get is, Jessica defies the Sisterhood and has a Boy; then she turns around and exposes her Boy to death by Gom Jabbar. Maybe Jessica was confident enough that she had raised Paul "right" and if Paul turned out to be an animal then...good riddance?

I suggest you read the first chapters again and then rewrite your post.

I was being really lazy posting. The Kwisatz Haderach deserves better.

I would like to know, if possible, Jessica's true...motivation to exposed Paul to the Gom Jabbar. Did Jessica know that Paul was the Kwisatz Haderach?

Was Jessica almost sure that Paul was the Kwistz Haderach?Was Jessica's loyalty to the Bene Gesserit the one factor that made Jessica agree with the Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam statement? "Jessica, you know it must be done"

From the touchy feely point of view of a mother, how can you have your kid tested like that? The father (Duke Leto Atreides) did not know about the Gom Jabbar test. In a paternalistic society some dangerous test are allowed when a boy is reaching manhood . A mother would never send her child into a potentially deadly manhood test or any other kind of test that might kill her child.

I think a mother's love was sacrificed to obey the Bene Gesserit.

Anyone has an opinion or a fact that they would like to share about Jessica's decision to let the Reverend Mother test Paul? It is a bit off-topic, I guess, but the Kwisatz Haderach is the most powerful weapon in the Duniverse. Also, Jessica's strenght in decision making is a weapon.

I hope I did just a little better with this post.

Thanks

edit to add

Jessica didn't need to be sure he was the Kwisatz Haderach. I imagine she was sure that he was human, which is the requirement for passing the test.

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Hypatia approaches one.

D Pope wrote:Opinion;Despite her 'break' with the BG, I feel she was simply following orders/tradition/whatever. This is simply what BG children have to go through.

Despite her near superhuman abilities, she is only an acolyte- I doubt that she saw her decision to have a son as being as big a deal as it turned out to be. In addition, "I sensed the possibility," sounds a little like a dodge to me. Hesitant and non-committal, she chose to try this gambit only after Helen brought it up. Throughout Dune, she keeps playing catchup with events around her by not revealing how behind oshe is. Examples; first dialog with Mapes, almost all interaction with Paul after the betrayal, in fact, her taking the WoL directly falls into this description. The only time she seems ahead of the game is with Stilgar and that's because he can't see past his own awe at her besting his ass.

I would like to know, if possible, Jessica's true...motivation to exposed Paul to the Gom Jabbar.

In my opinion, she never saw an alternative.

..

Jessica could have stopped the testing of Paul by just calling the Atriedes guards. I think she had a choice to stop it, but she did'nt. Jessica sensed the possibilities, but she did not think of putting Paul to the test.I think Jessica was never sure that Paul was "special human being"

I think that Jessica's ultimate loyalty lies with the Bene Gesserit Sisterhood. Jessica just obey her orders.Anyone else have an opinion based on the books(6)

Jessica decision to take the Water of Life for the Fremen is another example that she did what was required of her and did it without regard of the consequence. Could'nt have Alia died while Jessica was taking the Water of Life?

Her sense of duty is remarkable. I would really like the informed oplnlon of the rest of this Sietch. I thought that mothers would always be mothers and would protect their children. So we agree? Jessica chose duty to the Bene Gesserit over her maternal duty.

Edit to add

Last edited by Visigoth on 03 Jun 2012 04:27, edited 2 times in total.

Visigoth wrote:Anyone has an opinion or a fact that they would like to share about Jessica's decision to let the Reverend Mother test Paul? It is a bit off-topic, I guess, but the Kwisatz Haderach is the most powerful weapon in the Duniverse.

Jessica did not have a choice. Simple as that. Defying the BG in this matter would mean that she and the Atreides would be cut off from all help from the BG, and that Paul would might very well be actively hunted down. A potential KH or at least powerful candidate whose humanity (in BG terms) was in question on the lose? Not acceptable.

Jessica and the BG knew that House Atreides would fall. In all probability, Jessica's was hoping for BG help in saving his son - who else?

"If there were a thing to be done for him, we'd have done it," the old woman growled. "We may be able to salvage you. Doubtful, but possible. But for your father, nothing.

She believed in her son, and that this danger was far less than what he would face with the BG as an enemy instead of cautious, curious support. This did not become as relevant as she though, due to Yueh's double treachery and the fremen, of course...

Visigoth wrote:Anyone has an opinion or a fact that they would like to share about Jessica's decision to let the Reverend Mother test Paul? It is a bit off-topic, I guess, but the Kwisatz Haderach is the most powerful weapon in the Duniverse.

Jessica did not have a choice. Simple as that. Defying the BG in this matter would mean that she and the Atreides would be cut off from all help from the BG, and that Paul would might very well be actively hunted down. A potential KH or at least powerful candidate whose humanity (in BG terms) was in question on the lose? Not acceptable.

Jessica and the BG knew that House Atreides would fall. In all probability, Jessica's was hoping for BG help in saving his son - who else?

"If there were a thing to be done for him, we'd have done it," the old woman growled. "We may be able to salvage you. Doubtful, but possible. But for your father, nothing.

She believed in her son, and that this danger was far less than what he would face with the BG as an enemy instead of cautious, curious support. This did not become as relevant as she though, due to Yueh's double treachery and the fremen, of course...

Yeah!

I added to my post a question about Jessica's maternal duties. It seems that according to you Lundse, you maintain that Jessica is protecting Paul after all.

Visigoth wrote:Jessica could have stopped the testing of Paul by just calling the Atriedes guards. I think she had a choice to stop it, but she did'nt. Jessica sensed the possibilities, but she did not think of putting Paul to the test.I think Jessica was never sure that Paul was "special human being"

I think that Jessica's ultimate loyalty lies with the Bene Gesserit Sisterhood. Jessica just obey her orders.Anyone else have an opinion based on the books(6)

Jessica decision to take the Water of Life for the Fremen is another example that she did what was required of her and did it without regard of the consequence. Could'nt have Alia died while Jessica was taking the Water of Life?

Her sense of duty is remarkable. I would really like the informed oplnlon of the rest of this Sietch. I thought that mothers would always be mothers and would protect their children. So we agree? Jessica chose duty to the Bene Gesserit over her maternal duty.

Edit to add

I guess that's one way of looking at it.

Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.-Omphalos

Visigoth wrote:I added to my post a question about Jessica's maternal duties. It seems that according to you Lundse, you maintain that Jessica is protecting Paul after all.

Yeah, I believe so. Although her sense of duty to the BG must have played a part too. She knew it was a danger, but also that it was necessary. Maybe even morally necessary - what if Paul was not fully human, but a duke's son and a potential KH?

Visigoth wrote:I added to my post a question about Jessica's maternal duties. It seems that according to you Lundse, you maintain that Jessica is protecting Paul after all.

Yeah, I believe so. Although her sense of duty to the BG must have played a part too. She knew it was a danger, but also that it was necessary. Maybe even morally necessary - what if Paul was not fully human, but a duke's son and a potential KH?

Jessica is a complicated woman. I'm more confused now. I guess there are no black or white answers in Dune. I liked your answer very much.

Morally necessary? You mean, Paul needed to be tested? Wait...You mean, Jessica would not want an animal for a son. In Dune, is there any reference of what an animal is?

or morally necessary to find the Kwisatz Haderach.

if you say both I'm going to get confused again. I guess there are no black or white answers in Dune.Thanks

PS. Maybe it was out of her reach, but Jessica didn't do much to save Duke Leto; she just took Reverend Mohiam's word.I found in the first pages that a human, unlike an animal, will stay in his trap, endure the pain, and strike to survive.

I wonder (to get a little off where this thread turned recently) what people think of interpreting the descriptions of PB Jessica gives to Farrd'n in a relatively extreme way. What I mean is, should we take statements about visualizing yourself behind an opponent and then appearing there literally? Would a Reverend Mother fighting all-out appear to teleport, would her strikes literally blur with speed? At bottom, how superhuman are "average" RMs, Fish Speakers, Fremen, etc.?

harqalada wrote:I wonder (to get a little off where this thread turned recently) what people think of interpreting the descriptions of PB Jessica gives to Farrd'n in a relatively extreme way. What I mean is, should we take statements about visualizing yourself behind an opponent and then appearing there literally? Would a Reverend Mother fighting all-out appear to teleport, would her strikes literally blur with speed? At bottom, how superhuman are "average" RMs, Fish Speakers, Fremen, etc.?

Not at all. The PB training only gives them faster reflexes and better muscle control. The are certainly superior fighters (BTW, RM are a class above all others) but not superhuman.

Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.~Pink Snowman

Freakzilla wrote:Not at all. The PB training only gives them faster reflexes and better muscle control. The are certainly superior fighters (BTW, RM are a class above all others) but not superhuman.

Not to rock the boat, but is there a specific reason why they couldn't be read as superhuman? While I wouldn't call Dune fantasy or anything like that, there're clearly superhuman abilities in play outside of combat. Why not in combat as well?

Freakzilla wrote:Not at all. The PB training only gives them faster reflexes and better muscle control. The are certainly superior fighters (BTW, RM are a class above all others) but not superhuman.

Not to rock the boat, but is there a specific reason why they couldn't be read as superhuman? While I wouldn't call Dune fantasy or anything like that, there're clearly superhuman abilities in play outside of combat. Why not in combat as well?

Freakzilla wrote:Not at all. The PB training only gives them faster reflexes and better muscle control. The are certainly superior fighters (BTW, RM are a class above all others) but not superhuman.

Not to rock the boat, but is there a specific reason why they couldn't be read as superhuman? While I wouldn't call Dune fantasy or anything like that, there're clearly superhuman abilities in play outside of combat. Why not in combat as well?

Real boats rock.

I'd call Dune fantasy. I have, many times.

You can think of their combat abilities as superhuman if you want but I think it would take away from the story.

Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.~Pink Snowman

Jessica's motion started as a slumping, deceptive faint to the ground. It was the obvious way for a weak outworlder to do, and the obvious slows an opponent's reactions. It takes an instance to interpret a known thing when the thing is exposed as something unknown. She shifted as she saw his right shoulder drop to bring a weapon within the folds of his robe to bear on her new position. A turn, a slash of her arms, a whirling of mingled robes, and she was against the rocks with the man helpless in front of her.

Lightning-fast reflexes, yes. But the paragraph reveals something else; deception, carefully weighed to play to her opponent's preconceptions. The petite perception training of the Bene Gesserit used as an integral part of her fighting technique. Perhaps this, more than anything else, is the ‘weirding way’ the Fremen are so impressed with.

This would also explain why at the end of the novel, Paul and Feyd-Rautha seem fairly evenly matched, although intuitively, a prana-bindu trained Paul who has bested a hundred Fremen in bare-skinned crysknife fighting should be able to easily dispatch Feyd-Rautha, who has mostly fought drugged and conditioned slaves.Reading the description of that fight, however, it becomes clear that Feyd—being a Harkonnen-raised proto-KH—is able to layer deception upon deception, never really giving Paul a chance to read him. Thereby nullifying the advantage of the ‘weirding way’

The issue of why a loving mother like Jessica would allow her son to be exposed to death (if you believe that Mohiam would have killed him, it sure seems like Paul did) might be answered by another character from another fantasy (the best way to communicate reality i've come across is fantasy).Since this is a Dune forum, i'll just quote him, "where others see chance, i see cost."Maybe the agony box was the cost of the BG's help in rescuing Jessica and Paul, and Mohiam told Jessica that they wouldn't help without proof that Paul was indeed, human. Damn, another good string....

Laws to suppress tend to strengthen what they would prohibit. This is the fine point on which all the legal professions of history have based their job security. Bene Gesserit Coda

We got to protect our phony baloney jobs, gentlemen!Mel Brooks as the governor in Blazing Saddles

Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.-Omphalos

"You think I could be this Kwisatz Haderach," he said. "You talk about me, but you haven't said one thing about what we can do to help my father. I've heard you talking to my mother. You talk as though my father were dead. Well, he isn't!"

"If there were a thing to be done for him, we'd have done it," the old woman growled. "We may be able to salvage you. Doubtful, but possible. But for your father, nothing. When you've learned to accept that as a fact, you've learned a real Bene Gesserit lesson."

In speaking of Duke Leto, Mohiam says they would have helped him if they could have.This suggests to me that the BG were helping Paul and Jessica. It seems unlikely they would abandon their breeding program.

Laws to suppress tend to strengthen what they would prohibit. This is the fine point on which all the legal professions of history have based their job security. Bene Gesserit Coda

We got to protect our phony baloney jobs, gentlemen!Mel Brooks as the governor in Blazing Saddles

Margot Fenring left a note for Jessica in the conservatory. This is one part of the assistance the BG may have given them. Knowing the BG, a lot of the assistance would be subtle and behind the scenes.

Freakzilla wrote:I'd say the only real Superhuman, in a physical sense, in the series was Miles Teg.

The emphasis through the whole series seems to be more about human development and capability, rather than powers. As stated often enough about the BG, the abilities look super human to the uninitiated.

I'd agree though that his abilities at the end were quite impressive, reading the description of him moving at high speed was one if my favourite parts of those books.

Margot Fenring left a note for Jessica in the conservatory. This is one part of the assistance the BG may have given them. Knowing the BG, a lot of the assistance would be subtle and behind the scenes.

Was it assistance? Or did it knowingly sabotage trust among the Atreides? Thufir concluded that Jessica was the likeliest threat, and if he came to that conclusion it must have meant that the data showed it. And that, in turn, means others could have come to the same conclusion and planted the true story knowing it would sow discord. Even towards the end of the book Gurney is still convinced it was Jessica who betrayed them all. Yueh was so unassailable as a suspect that the 'assistance' would automatically implicate anyone but him, and therefore couldn't be any help to the Atreides.

Margot Fenring left a note for Jessica in the conservatory. This is one part of the assistance the BG may have given them. Knowing the BG, a lot of the assistance would be subtle and behind the scenes.

Was it assistance? Or did it knowingly sabotage trust among the Atreides? Thufir concluded that Jessica was the likeliest threat, and if he came to that conclusion it must have meant that the data showed it. And that, in turn, means others could have come to the same conclusion and planted the true story knowing it would sow discord. Even towards the end of the book Gurney is still convinced it was Jessica who betrayed them all. Yueh was so unassailable as a suspect that the 'assistance' would automatically implicate anyone but him, and therefore couldn't be any help to the Atreides.

Possibly, but it was a note left by a BG that could only have been found by a BG. I get what you're saying, but to me it feels like the BG looking after their own here.