Why are there no Senior B competitions in North America?

Lord knows, there are enough summer competitions here and there. Is the problem getting the sponsoring clubs/federations/etc to agree on one site?

What are the bars to getting one?

I'd particularly like to see an ISU sanctioned summer competitions here in dance and pairs. It is not necessary for an event to have more than one discipline represented. NRW Dance is sanctioned.

New Senior teams need to get a qualifying score these days to compete at either 4CC's, Europeans, and/or Worlds (ISU Comm 1640).

But more importantly, every year the rule changes in dance seem to be extensive enough that its become necessary to get ISU judges' input prior to the Grand Prix. That became clear in the surprises in the way the Golden Waltz segments were judged this year. Whatever CD is chosen for the Pattern Dance part of the SD next year, there will be similar issues.

It's twice as expensive (obviously) for pairs & dancers to make it to Europe to attend a Senior B than for singles.

It's not like there aren't enough teams from enough countries who train in North America to make the event international, particularly in dance. A quick skim of the ISU biographies yields this list of teams who train in NA, at least part of the time:

Australia
O'Brien and Merriman train in Vancouver for the "high season"

Azerbaijan
Feigin and Krasniak, at Arctic Edge

Denmark
Good & Sorensen train part time in the USA (Cromwell with Matthew Gates)

Another Ukranian team training in North America is Terra Findlay/Dmitry Dun, who train somewhere in Ontario. You're right, it should be very easy to get a good range of international participants.

Is the problem getting the sponsoring clubs/federations/etc to agree on one site?

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I think that must be it, and just getting one of the federations to take the lead in doing this. The fact that the Canadian federation, in particular, only sends participants to one Senior B (Nebelhorn) suggests that they don't attach much importance to the role that Senior B competitions play, so I wouldn't expect the lead to come from Skate Canada.

My understanding is that the organizing committee of a Senior B event does not pay for travel costs, etc. for participants, so the event wouldn't even be that expensive. The organizers would have to pay for the travel costs of the judges.

The minimum score rule is a newly-formed purpose for Senior B competitions and neither the US or Canada has a new team or skater in a discipline that they need competitors for Worlds or 4CC. If such a situation arises they can use their host pick for the skater/team. However, if either USFS or Skate Canada felt they needed a Senior B competition for their skaters, I'm sure they'd find a way to facilitate such a competition. The only reason I can think of is if they had a team with a skater from another country who can't be released until after their "A" competition time.

This may sound to you like a stupid question [so sorry ] but what exactly is a B competition [what's the difference between A and B comp?], and are any held in Asia?

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The term 'Senior B' is used for competitions in Europe like Nebelhorn, Finlandia, Coupe de Nice, Ice Challenge, Golden Spin of Zagreb, etc. None are held in Asia at this time. (The 6 Senior Grand Prix competitions are understood to be 'Senior A' but the term isn't actually used).

ETA: The annual Lake Placid Ice Dance and Indy Challenge Pairs competitions in August are probably the closest things to Senior Bs in the U.S. right now since they draw a good number of Canadian teams as well as a few from other countries, plus a few international officials are invited to be on technical panels and/or judge.

The term 'Senior B' is used for competitions in Europe like Nebelhorn, Finlandia, Coupe de Nice, Ice Challenge, Golden Spin of Zagreb, etc. None are held in Asia at this time. (The 6 Senior Grand Prix competitions are understood to be 'Senior A' but the term isn't actually used).

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Thanks! It does seem unfair to me that they're only held in Europe - but maybe nobody else wants them????

This may sound to you like a stupid question [so sorry ] but what exactly is a B competition [what's the difference between A and B comp?], and are any held in Asia?

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Edited to add--Sylvia beat me to the response, but here is my attempt at a definition:

A 'B' competition is any ISU competition open to all federations that is not part of the Grand Prix Series or one of the Championship events (Europeans, Four Continents, Worlds). Typically the competitors in these events are not among the top ten in the world in their discipline, but sometimes a Worlds-medal contender will participate in a B competition in the fall in order to get ready for the A competitions. (For example, Savchenko & Szolkowy in pairs and Davis & White in ice dance competed at the Nebelhorn Trophy in 2009. So did Stephane Lambiel, but he needed to compete there to obtain an Olympics berth for Switzerland.) At present, all of the B competitions are held in Europe, so the question about hosting a B competition outside of Europe applies just as much to Japan, Korea, China, and Australia as it does to Canada and the U.S.

The term 'Senior B' is used for competitions in Europe like Nebelhorn, Finlandia, Coupe de Nice, Ice Challenge, Golden Spin of Zagreb, etc. None are held in Asia at this time. (The 6 Senior Grand Prix competitions are understood to be 'Senior A' but the term isn't actually used).

ETA: The annual Lake Placid Ice Dance and Indy Challenge Pairs competitions in August are probably the closest things to Senior Bs in the U.S. right now since they draw a good number of Canadian teams as well as a few from other countries, plus a few international officials are invited to be on technical panels and/or judge.

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Yes, but Lake Placid does not allow you to get a qualifying score, because it is not sanctioned by the ISU. And the judging there never seems to be entirely in line with international judging.

I assume the judges, while qualified by ISU standards?, are all North American judges?

So that's two weaknesses of assuming LPIDC fills the need. Not to mention that it is not centrally located and that Placid is one of those "can't get there from here" type of places, plus hotel rooms are relatively pricey, since it's a vacation destination in summer and fall (winter too, for that matter).

It is not the federation that has a need for the competition, it's the skaters.

I suspect that skaters and coaches are going to have to get together to drive any effort to get one of the summer competitions sanctioned by the ISU.

If a team goes to Nationals and finishes, say 3rd or 4th in dance (like say, Navarro and Bommentre or Steigler and Magerovsky in their first year) they could qualify for 4CC's or even Worlds or Olympics, in the old days. Now they can't go anywhere without first finding and attending an ISU sanctioned senior competition and getting above a minimum score.

Additionally, the opportunity for summer input on levels is key.

BTW, the Japan Open is a sanctioned senior competition in singles, and there is a competition in New Zealand that is sanctioned for all 4 disciplines.

BTW, the Japan Open is a sanctioned senior competition in singles, and there is a competition in New Zealand that is sanctioned for all 4 disciplines.

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The New Zealand competition (the Southern Skate International) was cancelled this year, and the Japan Open is invitational (and they typically invite high level skaters), so there really was no option outside of Europe for senior skaters in any discipline hoping to compete in a B competition this summer or fall.

From ISU Communication No. 1629, the criteria for a Senior B competition to be eligible to provide ISU World Standings points:

1.4 International Senior Competitions, provided there are minimum 8 single skaters, respectively 6 Ice Dance couples out of four ISU Members present respectively 5 Pairs out of three ISU Members.

1.5 Events, mentioned under paragraph 1.4, in which the Technical Panel (Technical Controller and the two (2) Technical Specialists) are from three (3) different ISU Members. (It is recommended that participating ISU Members, before entering their skaters, check with the organizing Members of International Competitions whether this requirement will be fulfilled).

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ETA: Just checked online and Nailya ZHIGANSHINA / Alexander GAZSI seem to have received ISU World Standings points for their 2nd place finish at NRW Trophy-Ice Dance (225 points) even though this result is not listed in their ISU bio: http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00009177.htm

I've wondered this for a while. Senior-age skaters need opportunities to break into the international scene, especially in pairs and dance where partnerships are often re-forming, and where it takes time to develop as a team.

Perhaps USFS and Skate Canada don't perceive a problem because they are focusing on their top competitors, but I'd like to see a Senior B opportunity here in N.A. for lower-ranked skaters who still have the commitment and interest to push themselves onward in the sport after missing the junior age "time window".

The biggest problem with having Liberty as a "B" competition is the venue itself. It is basically an ice rink, with bench seating, not an arena.

Lake Placid and Broadmoor do have arena seating, but as previously mentioned, Lake Placid is hard to get to and Broadmoor (in Colorado) would require additional travel for the skaters/teams who train on the east coast and European judges/techs. And both Lake Placid and Broadmoor are at altitude.

Apparently ISU judges seem to require the most posh hotel arrangements, and that is an expense for the host federation.

I remember reading once that there aren't any senior B events in NA because there's little or no need for them. NA has always had a strong culture of self-organizing club competitions, of which some are fairly big events with many competitors. Having ISU B events would take away from the competition, and the money clubs make hosting these things.

I suppose not getting an ISU ranking would be the only negative to how things are done now with club comps.

From ISU Communication No. 1629, the criteria for a Senior B competition to be eligible to provide ISU World Standings points:

ETA: Just checked online and Nailya ZHIGANSHINA / Alexander GAZSI seem to have received ISU World Standings points for their 2nd place finish at NRW Trophy-Ice Dance (225 points) even though this result is not listed in their ISU bio: http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00009177.htm

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Sounds like it would be relatively easy to start a similar competition in Detroit area alone for dance.

Yes NRW dance is a qualifying competition. It's on the list.

I agree with flowerpower that there really is a need in dance and pairs.

So I started this thread in a hope that someone with the power to make it happen might think of doing it.

euterpe, you really don't need arena seating for a Senior B competition (check out the seating at some of the arenas used for the other competitions.)

Liberty seating in Rink 2 where the seniors actually compete, not so much, but the rink next door 1? 3? has a lot more seats and would do.

I've wondered this for a while. Senior-age skaters need opportunities to break into the international scene, especially in pairs and dance where partnerships are often re-forming, and where it takes time to develop as a team.

Perhaps USFS and Skate Canada don't perceive a problem because they are focusing on their top competitors, but I'd like to see a Senior B opportunity here in N.A. for lower-ranked skaters who still have the commitment and interest to push themselves onward in the sport after missing the junior age "time window".

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Can you give any examples of any current U.S. or Canadian pairs or dance couples who you believe have been unfairly denied the opportunity to break into the international scene? The USFSA and Skate Canada do, in fact, send quite a few of their lower-ranked seniors to Senior B's already.

The USFSA sent a senior dance couple to Cup of Nice this season, and their overall score was 81.24.

If that's the level of couples who do get sent to Senior B's, it's hard to the "need" to create additional competitions for those who don't.

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Katharine ZEIGLER / Baxter BURBANK were sent to Nice as the dance representative via USFS' Collegiate international program (they were the highest placing, full-time college students that competed at the Lake Placid IDC in August 2010).

The fact that the Canadian federation, in particular, only sends participants to one Senior B (Nebelhorn) suggests that they don't attach much importance to the role that Senior B competitions play, so I wouldn't expect the lead to come from Skate Canada.

Can you give any examples of any current U.S. or Canadian pairs or dance couples who you believe have been unfairly denied the opportunity to break into the international scene? The USFSA and Skate Canada do, in fact, send quite a few of their lower-ranked seniors to Senior B's already.

The USFSA sent a senior dance couple to Cup of Nice this season, and their overall score was 81.24.

If that's the level of couples who do get sent to Senior B's, it's hard to the "need" to create additional competitions for those who don't.

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It happens often in pairs & dance that a couple breaks up and a brand new couple forms. Often, because both are top performers by themselves, they debut at Nationals at 4th or higher.

This year, off the top of my head, in the US, Marley & Brubaker, even if they finished high enough at Nationals to qualify for 4CC'S or Worlds, couldn't go this year.

In past years, the following new teams won medals and would not have been able to go to Worlds or 4CC's without taking a trip to Europe first, wasting money they probably did not have since they were new teams (usually the 4th place couple gets a 4CC's berth since at least one of the top 3 won't go:

Weaver & Poje
Silverstein & Meara
Steigler & Magerovski (debuted in 4th)
Navarro & Bommentre (debuted in 4th)
Gregory & Petukhov
Semanick & Kravette
Semanick & Gregory
Blumberg & Siebert finished 3rd in their first year at US championships, if one is to believe wikipedia
Rene Roca and James Yorke finished 4th in their debut year, and if there had been 4CC's then, couldn't have gone.

This year, off the top of my head, in the US, Marley & Brubaker, even if they finished high enough at Nationals to qualify for 4CC'S or Worlds, couldn't go this year.

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They can earn a qualifying score at the Bavarian Open (between Nationals and Four Continents) or Mont Blanc or the International Challenge Cup (both of which are between Four Continents and Worlds). I expect these three competitions to become increasingly successful at drawing high-quality entries because teams such as Marley & Brubaker, Bonheur & Canac, Mukhortova & Blanchard, Volosozhar & Trankov, and Khokhlova & Andreev will want the opportunity to gain a qualifying score to compete at ISU Championships.

Lord knows, there are enough summer competitions here and there. Is the problem getting the sponsoring clubs/federations/etc to agree on one site?

What are the bars to getting one?

I'd particularly like to see an ISU sanctioned summer competitions here in dance and pairs.

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In 2010, a summer Senior B competition wouldn't have done Marley & Brubaker any good. They didn't even team up until August, and judging from the fact they haven't entered any Senior B's scheduled before Nationals, they probably don't feel they either need or are ready for one yet.

This is true-but a summer competition with real ISU technical committee would have done a lot of good for teams just about to compete in the new short dance.

And just because there might be a summer Senior B, it doesn't preclude having a winter Senior B in North American specifically aimed at teams that haven't yet had ISU qualifying scores but did really well at Regionals/Sectionals/Challenge.

And next year's short dance will most likely have a different CD for the pattern dance. Similar prep will be desirable.

When Pechalat and Bourzat got an unpleasant surprise at Nebelhorn, they were able to pick up 2 other Senior B's prior to debuting at Cup of China, and thus had their levels up to the best they could. Indeed, everyone is praising their devotion to their preparation. No North American team could have done something like that-3 trips to Europe would be very unfeasible.

And then there's the matter of the Season's Bonus from the ISU-the Senior B points can determine what the skaters win there.

Faiella & Scali arrived at CoC and got more surprises than just their wardrobe problems. D&W (who wouldn't have been able to take advantage of a Senior B, most likely, due to their SOI involvement and other projects also got an unpleasant surprise at NHK on their Golden Waltz levels.

It would be nice for internationally active US (and Canadian and skaters from other countries training in the US) to be able to get early input without having to spring for a trip to Europe. Even if money is no object, the time and the jet lag are great for training either.

It would be nice for internationally active US (and Canadian and skaters from other countries training in the US) to be able to get early input without having to spring for a trip to Europe. Even if money is no object, the time and the jet lag are great for training either.

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Well I agree with this - and I'd say the same thing for Asia. If these competitions are going to have an impact on the season, then ALL skaters from ALL countries should have reasonable access to them. Otherwise, it seems like the ISU is putting the emphasis on European skaters and favoring them over skaters who are far away.

I don't understand at all why none of them hold at least one competition, other than the summer ones.

European skaters definitely wouldn't come because the costs are so high.

But Northern American skaters probably would, the European skaters who train in North America probably would (way cheaper for them than flying back to Europe) and correct me if I'm wrong but for some Asian countries NA is closer than Europe, no?

correct me if I'm wrong but for some Asian countries NA is closer than Europe, no?

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Depends on where in NA - along the Pacific coast I think it's certainly cheaper [and maybe closer - it's about 11 hours flight], but further inland or east coast, I think no. It's about the same [course, it depends on exactly where in Europe too].

From what I have read, Pajardi/Caruso and Aronow/Pirogov no longer together-tho' I may be wrong. I believe Stephano Caruso is skating w/Tanja Kolbe (tho' don't know where they train), and Aronow is skating w/Donohue (may be in Canton?)
It would be wonderful to expose more SR teams (specifically Pairs and Dance) to competition for the experience. I wonder if federations would allow teams to go if they were willing to pay their own way? If competitions were held in NA, wouldn't be too costly for most teams-probably about the cost of Lake Placid or Liberty, I would think.

(Sylvia was asking what Skate Canada's reason was for not using Senior B's other than Nebelhorn).

I hope it's budgetary. If it's a strategy decision, then I don't think it's very wise. For one thing, many top-level Canadian skaters would benefit from additional international competitive experience, as I think is demonstrated by the performances of about half the Canadian skaters on the Grand Prix circuit this year. Those skaters simply didn't skate up to their capabilities, and some of that is probably due to lack of competitive experience IMO. Secondly, there are a reasonable number of Canadian skaters who aren't yet up to the levels required for the Grand Prix circuit but are still quite good. Some of them never will be at the Grand Prix level, but some of them just need time and some incentive to perservere until they reach that level. I think Senior B assignments can help provide that short-term incentive.

If it is a budgetary reason, Senior B's in North America would definitely help.

(Sylvia was asking what Skate Canada's reason was for not using Senior B's other than Nebelhorn).

I hope it's budgetary. If it's a strategy decision, then I don't think it's very wise. For one thing, many top-level Canadian skaters would benefit from additional international competitive experience, as I think is demonstrated by the performances of about half the Canadian skaters on the Grand Prix circuit this year. Those skaters simply didn't skate up to their capabilities, and some of that is probably due to lack of competitive experience IMO. Secondly, there are a reasonable number of Canadian skaters who aren't yet up to the levels required for the Grand Prix circuit but are still quite good. Some of them never will be at the Grand Prix level, but some of them just need time and some incentive to perservere until they reach that level. I think Senior B assignments can help provide that short-term incentive.

If it is a budgetary reason, Senior B's in North America would definitely help.

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I totally agree with everything you've said.

And I certainly hope that Skate Canada just doesn't have enough money to send skaters to more events.

Although it seems really weird. Out of all the federations out there, you'd imagine they'd be able to afford it...