Zom wrote: To my understaning, 7 points here is the detailed explanation of the "Dhamma Mirror" given by Buddha in DN 16. Plus, they are interesting in explaining the meaning of that weird phrase "lokuttara ñāṇa". Elsewhere in the suttas there is a mention, that one of the sotapanna's feature is that "knowledge, not shared by ordinary people". It is commented as the "knowledge of experiencing nibbana". However, MN 48 shows clearly that this is not the case. This kind of knowledge is not something mystic, but simply the knowledge of a person who practises Dhamma and found out for himself that he has such and such qualities and such and such thoughts. It is "lokuttara" only in the sense that it helps to reach nibbana in some future time. Not more than that. Later commentaries, of course, with the help of Abhidhamma misted up all this and placed the possibility of attaining that "lokuttara knowledge" on the highest level possible, possibly, that is of arahant. That's how sotapanna became "unreally high" level of attainment ,)"

I agree with Zom's above-quoted comments. I'd like to add a sutta indicating that the attainment of sotapanna doesn't require the knowledge of experiencing nibbana:

SN 48.53:

"Furthermore, the monk who is a learner discerns the five faculties: the faculty of conviction... persistence... mindfulness... Samadhi ... wisdom. He sees clear through with wisdom their destiny, excellence, rewards, & consummation, but he does not touch them with his body [he does not yet possess the five faculties; these faculties are yet to be developed and culminated in him]. This too is a manner of reckoning whereby a monk who is a learner, standing at the level of a learner, can discern that 'I am a learner.'

As indicated in this sutta, the monk didn't "touch" the faculty of Samadhi "with his body", so he couldn't have experienced nibbana.

In addition, I'd like to know the pali word(s) for "endowed" and "possessed" in the following concluding paragraph from MN 48; was the same pali word used for both?:

Ven. Thanissaro: "When the noble disciple is endowed with these seven characteristics, he is ready to realize the fruits of the entry into the stream of the Teaching."

Ven. Bodhi:"When a noble disciple is thus possessed of seven factors, he has well sought the character for realisation of the fruit of steam-entry. When a noble disciple is thus possessed of seven factors, he possesses the fruit of stream-entry."

Since the two translations are so different, I'd appreciate the Pali for the papragraph, together with a word to word translation.

starter wrote:I agree with Zom's above-quoted comments. I'd like to add a sutta indicating that the attainment of sotapanna doesn't require the knowledge of experiencing nibbana...

Nibbāna means extinguishment. With the fruition of stream-entry a stream entrant has realized the extinguishment of the first three fetters. They know that they have realized this extinguishment. This knowledge of extinguishment differentiates them from ordinary people.

Hi StarterThis is a very good post. I have a great respect for the knowledge you have. However, I am not yet convinced that there is a clear cut separation of Sotapanna from Sakdagami etc. If I want to climb Mount Everest I will know when I get to the base camp one(1) and the next is base camp two. But they are just arbitrary sign posts.

Don’t you think that the belief that there is something called Sotapanna exist is also another view? However I do not condemn the people who use these terms for study and planning purposes.

"Furthermore, the monk who is a learner discerns the five faculties: the faculty of conviction... persistence... mindfulness... Samadhi ... wisdom. He sees clear through with wisdom their destiny, excellence, rewards, & consummation, but he does not touch them with his body [he does not yet possess the five faculties; these faculties are yet to be developed and culminated in him]. This too is a manner of reckoning whereby a monk who is a learner, standing at the level of a learner, can discern that 'I am a learner.'

As indicated in this sutta, the monk didn't "touch" the faculty of Samadhi "with his body", so he couldn't have experienced nibbana.

This says nothing about nibbana as nibbana is not an element of samadhi, like it is not an element of conviction, persistence, etc.

This sutta speaks about it also:

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying in Savatthi, at the Eastern Gatehouse. There he addressed Ven. Sariputta: "Sariputta, do you take it on conviction that the faculty of conviction, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation? Do you take it on conviction that the faculty of persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation?"

"Lord, it's not that I take it on conviction in the Blessed One that the faculty of conviction... persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation. Those who have not known, seen, penetrated, realized, or attained it by means of discernment would have to take it on conviction in others that the faculty of conviction... persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation; whereas those who have known, seen, penetrated, realized, & attained it by means of discernment would have no doubt or uncertainty that the faculty of conviction... persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation. And as for me, I have known, seen, penetrated, realized, & attained it by means of discernment. I have no doubt or uncertainty that the faculty of conviction... persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation."

"Excellent, Sariputta. Excellent. Those who have not known, seen, penetrated, realized, or attained it by means of discernment would have to take it on conviction in others that the faculty of conviction... persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation; whereas those who have known, seen, penetrated, realized, & attained it by means of discernment would have no doubt or uncertainty that the faculty of conviction... persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation."http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

In my eyes it quite clearly says who seen nibbana (the deathless) know that the faculties lead towards nibbana (as an arahant). Those who have this wisdom of the faculties are indeed the stream winners. This also seems to be spoken by Sariputta before he was an arahant as he speaks about having no doubt about the goal of nibbana, but not about being fully there yet. There is also this sutta:

Then to Sariputta the wanderer, as he heard this Dhamma exposition, there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation."

Even if just this is the Dhamma,you have penetrated to the Sorrowless (asoka) State unseen, overlooked (by us)for many myriads of aeons.Then Sariputta the wanderer went to Moggallana the wanderer. Moggallana the wanderer saw him coming from afar and, on seeing him, said, "Bright are your faculties, my friend; pure your complexion, and clear. Could it be that you have attained the Deathless?"

I don't think Sariputta went from not having right view straight to being an arahant. So 'attaining the Deathless' is a glimpse of nibbana, not full enlightenment. It's like seeing the water in the well, but not being able to drink it yet, which we see in the sutta below (again with "not touching with his body").

"My friend, although I have seen properly with right discernment, as it actually is present, that 'The cessation of becoming is Unbinding,' still I am not an arahant whose fermentations are ended. [2] It's as if there were a well along a road in a desert, with neither rope nor water bucket. A man would come along overcome by heat, oppressed by the heat, exhausted, dehydrated, & thirsty. He would look into the well and would have knowledge of 'water,' but he would not dwell touching it with his body. [3] In the same way, although I have seen properly with right discernment, as it actually is present, that 'The cessation of becoming is Unbinding,' still I am not an arahant whose fermentations are ended."http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Agreed, here directly seeing nibbana is not as clearly indicated as in the previous two suttas, but combine the three and I think it makes a pretty strong case - as far as suttas can make a case - that "looking into the well and knowing water" means seeing nibbana.

Now, I must say I don't like talking about 'stages' and 'attainments' too much, because I think it usually isn't very productive. So I think I'll leave it at this. But I think it was good putting these suttas out here.

SarathW wrote:However, I am not yet convinced that there is a clear cut separation of Sotapanna from Sakdagami etc.

Hello friends,

Thanks for all your input. To my understanding, here are the differences between these stages of enlightenment:

1) Sotapanna: the first three low fetters are broken;2) Sakdagami: the first three low fetters are broken, and the other two low fetters (sensual desire and ill will) are significantly weakened but not yet broken;3) Anagami: all the five low fetters are broken;4) Arahant: all 10 fetters are broken.

I think knowing the stage of one's practice is necessary, so that one can locate and orient himself on the "map" to liberation, with the goals and destination clearly comprehended.

Studying such a topic is helpful for breaking the wrong views about these stages of achievements. I was surprised to hear some teachers' comments such as a Sotapanna must very briefly experience nibbana (what they mean is the cessation of perception and feeling). A Sotapanna wouldn't have had such a meditative level to reach the cessation of perception and feeling, which is nibbana (of course a wisdom-liberated arahant dosen't have to attain cessation of perception and feeling, but the extinguishments of the 10 fetters). Not only a sotapanna can't experience it, but also an anagami can't experience it -- I don't believe an anagami can really reach the cessation of perception and feeling, which is the attainment of an arahant. Such wrong views could be dangerous as we discussed earlier in the following thread: viewtopic.php?f=44&t=6950&hilit=+pitch+black

starter wrote: I was surprised to hear some teachers' comments such as a Sotapanna must very briefly experience nibbana (what they mean is the cessation of perception and feeling).

Why are you surprised? Isn't it the (classical) Theravada understanding that all paths and fruits take nibbana as an object?

"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared." Iti 26

starter wrote: I was surprised to hear some teachers' comments such as a Sotapanna must very briefly experience nibbana (what they mean is the cessation of perception and feeling).

Why are you surprised? Isn't it the (classical) Theravada understanding that all paths and fruits take nibbana as an object?

The difference is that the path and fruition consciousnesses occur together with both perception and feeling and nibbāna as the object of the path and fruition consciousnesses is distinctly different from the attainment of cessation of perception and feeling.

starter wrote: I was surprised to hear some teachers' comments such as a Sotapanna must very briefly experience nibbana (what they mean is the cessation of perception and feeling).

Why are you surprised? Isn't it the (classical) Theravada understanding that all paths and fruits take nibbana as an object?

The difference is that the path and fruition consciousnesses occur together with both perception and feeling and nibbāna as the object of the path and fruition consciousnesses is distinctly different from the attainment of cessation of perception and feeling.

Thanks for clarifying. Is this from the Abhidhamma?

"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared." Iti 26

I think the suttas are not clear on it. But in my eyes it doesn't really matter, because one could look at it this way: Either stream entry will be with a moment of the 6 senses shutting down or not. If the practice is right, it will lead to it either way. It is not like you can become a sotapanna by doing it or by wanting it, it's not a graduation. So having the knowledge of how it will roughly be like won't do much. Or at least shouldn't.

Those can happen at later moment. But as I sort of said, I don't feel the discussion is really useful. For those who are practicing toward sotapanna, it wouldn't matter. For those who are already, it also doesn't matter. It could in theory only be useful for people who think they are sotapanna but aren't. But will they change their view depending on what some people on a forum say? I think not. If anything, I think views would only be solidified. One would need a good teacher one trusts to convince one is wrong, if that is the case.

Shutting down the mind doesn't occur earlier in the cognitive series leading up to stream entry either (there are occurrences of the bhavaṅgacitta, but such occurrences aren't unique to this particular cognitive series).

reflection wrote:I don't feel the discussion is really useful.

I suppose the usefulness of dhamma discussions on internet forums is an open question, but it seems to me that mistaken assertions are never useful.

sotāpattiphalasamannāgato hotī.’’ tiis endowed with the fruit of stream-entry.”

It appears to me that an ariyan disciple who has reached the first stage of enlightenment is already endowed with the 7 factors described in MN 48 (my understanding is that these seven factors are established in him but not yet culminated in him, which will be culminated when he obtain the fruit of stream entry); so those who haven't established these seven factors in them are not yet ariyan disciples.

As to the comment "One would need a good teacher one trusts to convince one is wrong, if that is the case", is there a better teacher than the Buddha? Why did the Buddha teach us the suttas like MN 48?

Form ... Feeling … Perception … Volitional formations … Consciousness is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. One who places faith in these teachings and resolves on them thus is called a faith-follower, one who has entered the fixed course of rightness (the noble path, to stream entry), entered the plane of superior persons, transcended the plane of the worldlings. He is incapable of doing any deed by reason of which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal realm, or in the domain of ghosts; he is incapable of passing away without having realized the fruit of stream-entry.

One for whom these teachings are accepted thus after being pondered to a sufficient degree with wisdom is called a Dhamma-follower, one who has entered the fixed course of rightness (the noble path, to stream entry), entered the plane of superior persons, transcended the plane of the worldlings. He is incapable of doing any deed by reason of which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal realm, or in the domain of ghosts; he is incapable of passing away without having realized the fruit of stream-entry.

One who knows and sees these teachings thus is called a stream-enterer, no longer bound to the nether world, fixed in destiny, with enlightenment as his destination.

Thanks to this sutta and the very helpful footnotes at http://www.palicanon.org/, today I realized that the faith-followers (who accept and practice the Teaching on trust, relies on faith as the vehicle of progress) and the Dhamma-followers (who accept and practice the Teaching through examination and understanding, relies on wisdom as the vehicle of progress) are the two classes of noble disciples who are practising for realization of the fruit of stream-entry. Both should have reached the first of the eight stages of awakening (?). However, I'm a bit puzzled by the obtaining of the Dhamma eye -- it seems to me that the faith-followers (and probably also the Dhamma followers) haven't obtained the Dhamma eye yet. [html]So those who have obtained the Dhamma eye have actually reached the 2nd stage of awakening -- stream-entry (?).[/html]

I suppose both types should really know the above highlighted teachings, without mistaking e.g mind consciousness as "true self", otherwise s/he can't enter the noble path. Among all, mind consciousness is the most difficult one to break through. For the relevant discussion see What's mind consciousness and why it's a magic show? viewtopic.php?f=13&t=9409&hilit=+mind+consciousness.

8. "As a post deep-planted in the earth stands unshaken by the winds from the four quarters, so, too, I declare is the righteous man who comprehends with wisdom the Noble Truths. This precious jewel is the Sangha. By this truth may there be happiness.

9. "Those who realized the Noble Truths well taught by him who is profound in wisdom (the Buddha), even though they may be exceedingly heedless, they will not take an eighth existence. This precious jewel is the Sangha. By this truth may there be happiness.

10. "With his gaining of insight he abandons three states of mind, namely self-illusion/self identity view (Sakkaya-ditthi), doubt (Vicikiccha), and attachment to sila (precepts/virtues) and rites/rituals (Silabbataparamasa), should there be any. He is also fully freed from the four states of woe, and therefore, incapable of committing the six major wrongdoings. This precious jewel is the Sangha. By this (asseveration of the) truth may there be happiness.

11. "Any evil action he may still do by deed, word or thought, he is incapable of concealing it; since it has been proclaimed that such concealing is impossible for one who has seen the Path (N8P). This precious jewel is the Sangha. By this truth may there be happiness. ..."

It seems that the faith follower "comprehends" (conceptually) the 4NT and establishes his faith on the Buddha-Dhamma, whereas the stream winner "realizes"/"sees" the 4NT. Those who have gained the "Dhamma eye" should have reached stream entry (the 2nd stage of awakening), who are not yet perfected in virtue and could still do "evil actions", but not "the six major wrongdoings", to my understanding.

The six great wrongs: murdering one's mother, murdering one's father, murdering an arahant, wounding a Buddha, causing a schism in the Sangha, or pernicious false beliefs (niyata micca ditthi), including choosing anyone other than a Buddha as one's foremost teacher?

Then the Blessed One, having encompassed the mind of the entire assembly with his mind, asked himself, "Now who here is capable of understanding the Dhamma?" He saw Suppabuddha the leper sitting in the assembly, and on seeing him the thought occurred to him, "This person here is capable of understanding the Dhamma." So, aiming at Suppabuddha the leper, he gave a step-by-step talk, i.e., he proclaimed a talk on generosity, on virtue, on heaven; he declared the drawbacks, degradation, & corruption of sensuality, and the rewards of renunciation. Then when the Blessed One knew that Suppabuddha the leper's mind was ready, malleable, free from hindrances, elevated, & clear, he then gave the Dhamma-talk peculiar to Awakened Ones, i.e., suffering, origination, cessation, & path. And just as a clean cloth, free of stains, would properly absorb a dye, in the same way, as Suppabuddha the leper was sitting in that very seat, the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye arose within him, "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation."

Having seen the Dhamma, reached the Dhamma, known the Dhamma, gained a foothold in the Dhamma, having crossed over & beyond doubt, having had no more perplexity, having gained fearlessness & independence from others with regard to the Teacher's message, ..."http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html (with minor change: "awareness" to "mind"; "stress" to 'suffering")

Concerning the "Dhamma eye", one needs not only intellectual understanding, but deeper penetration of "Whatever is subject to arising is all subject to cessation" to give up the desire to be in control due to self delusion. If uncertainties/insecurity/fear is still there, then one hasn't truly gained "the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye", hasn't truly broken the fetter of self delusion and doubt and enter the "stream" (the 2nd stage of enlightenment) yet, to my understanding.

starter wrote:If uncertainties/insecurity/fear is still there, then one hasn't truly gained "the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye", hasn't truly broken the fetter of self delusion and doubt and enter the "stream" (the 2nd stage of enlightenment) yet, to my understanding.

Your correction and input would be appreciated. Metta to all!

I would agree with you. If we accept that attainment of stream-entry is essentially a singular experience as evidenced by many suttas, then the arising of the Dhamma eye is unmistakable to the one who attains it. Whatever that must be, we speculators can only speculate.

I agree with Bhante that what the leper Suppabuddha is not in doubt about is the veracity of the teaching -- specifically about the nature of the 2nd and 3rd noble truths, or conditionality, which is in accordance with the previously cited SN Chapter IV - 25 Okkantisaṃyutta Connected Discourses on Entering. The comprehension of the first three NT will irreversibly lead to the understanding of the 4th North Truth, and the breaking of the three fetters.

I suppose that this obtaining of "the Dhamma eye" (the vision of the Dhamma) would make the leper obtain the first stage of the enlightenment, not the second. I don't imagine that he could have comprehended the 4th Noble Truth -- the Noble 8-factored Path within that short moment. The comprehension of the 4th Noble Truth would mean that one has penetrated all 8 factors and has entered the path, or reached the second stage of the enlightenment, to my understanding.

Thanks for Mkoll's input, and welcome more. Metta to all!

PS: I recommend Bhante Anandajoti's sutta translations containing both Pali and English, which I believe are closer to the original meaning and can be found using the search engine: http://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/

Last edited by starter on Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

I'd like to add that the obtaining of the vision of the Dhamma “Whatever has the nature of arising, all that has the nature of ceasing” also makes one penetrate the 1st NT, in addition to the 2nd and 3rd NT, as I commented in a previous post of this thread:

"All conditioned dhamma are anicca, and hence are dukkha (and anatta)-- he thus understood the Buddha's first Noble Truth of Dukkha, and then the second Noble Truth -- the origination of suffering: "the craving that makes for further becoming (further "arisingdhamma" that are destined to cease). Next the Third Noble Truth of the cessation of suffering: "the remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving"."