I've been comparing our DF23* folks with L21+ M222- and M222 unknown folks and come up with a group of STR signatures that look to be DF23*. I think there are more, just that DF49 and DF23 are undertested.

I'll start listing some. There is one that I can not separate from M222+ folks purely by STRs. I wonder if some assumed/predicted M222 folks are really DF23* ?

Mike-I suppose it must be almost impossible to seperate those descended from Mr M222 from those descended from his DF23* father, grandfather and I would assume several times great grandfathers from STRs alone.

So I would agree totally. There surely are people descended from the M222 line who split off in the generations before the SNP and who wrongly think they are M222. In fact the immediate origin of M222 is probably being clouded by people who have the classic STR signatures but who have wrongly assummed they are M222. If we could find and list and plot the very-M222-like DF23* people then that would really help understand the origins of this lineage. I take it there are some people already who got surprising negative results for M222 despite their STRs?

.... I take it there are some people already who got surprising negative results for M222 despite their STRs?

There are some, but I think there would be a lot if the assumed M222 people really tested. Not to be critical, but M222 is a victim of its own early discovery. I don't think there is a much push for exploration as there is in an average L21* passionate (EDIT: 11/3 - sorry, intended as self deprecating) hobbyist.

They sorely need SNPs within M222, but I think youthfulness is working against it. It's amazing how young it appears for its great population.

.... I take it there are some people already who got surprising negative results for M222 despite their STRs?

There are some, but I think there would be a lot if the assumed M222 people really tested. Not to be critical, but M222 is a victim of its own early discovery. I don't think there is a much push for exploration as there is in an average L21* crazy hobbyist.

They sorely need SNPs within M222, but I think youthfulness is working against it. It's amazing how young it appears for its great population.

Well here's hoping the three new sub-SNP's that are supposedly in the GEN 2.0 will spur some interest,

I've been comparing our DF23* folks with L21+ M222- and M222 unknown folks and come up with a group of STR signatures that look to be DF23*. I think there are more, just that DF49 and DF23 are undertested.

I'll start listing some. There is one that I can not separate from M222+ folks purely by STRs. I wonder if some assumed/predicted M222 folks are really DF23* ?

This is a good idea.

I'd assumed M222 neg people who were close to the M222 modal had been contacted to test for DF23 a while ago, but just in case some were missed out it wouldn't do any harm to send out messages advising them of DF23.

Looking at the M222 plus results I can't help wonder if a sizable expansion from within this group has shifted the modal values away from the ancestral ones anyway. The modal GD from the modal values is only 6 @ 67 loci whilst the biggest is 19, anybody care to comment if that is the sort of result you would expect to see in a normal distribution ?

The problem with those who are happy to assume from STRs that they are M222 is that they are likely to be happy with the descendant of Niall tag and maybe dont want to risk that by testing for the SNP. Being a descendant of Nialls GG grandfather may be less attractive to pay money to be. I think that is a silly mentality but I am sure its a factor. However, by doing that these untested people may be making the earlier story of this lineage unclear.

The following off-modal STR signature based varieties each have at least one confirmed DF23+ M222- person in them.

Mike, how can you be sure about varieties with only a single member ? How do you know these varieties are or will turn out to be significant ??

Or am I missing something important ??

In the spreadsheet I keep track of two items separately but also in context.

I am a big believer in SNP testing and advocate that everyone test to terminal SNP unless their proven brother/male cousin type has already done so.

I derive the actual haplogroup according to the SNP results and the ISOGG tree and I display that in one column.

In another column I assign, where possible, STR signature based varieties. They are based on a shared set of off-modal (from L21) values and GD's (as a cross-check) at 67 markers. These are what some people might call clusters. Ken Nordvedt has used the term "variety" because because these are not necessarily groups related in the genealogical timeframe. Some of these varieties are very easy to spot and I think are reliable, for instance, 13*1030-Sc, or Scots modal.

Some varieties are highly speculative. I think they are all speculative. Before I ran out of room on the spreadsheet,I used to have comment on every column heading on that one I described this one as "speculative deep ancestral variety." Probably, that's the right description. In other words, the answer is I'm not at all sure these are firm groups of related people. I hope to encourage people to recruit others in these groups for SNP testing to validate what is and isn't. What we've been finding is that many of these do bear out to be real subclades, but some get eventually split or moved around.

My opinion is we need a lot more people with high DY481 values to test for DF23 and DF49 if they are M222-.

Being a descendant of Nialls GG grandfather may be less attractive to pay money to be. I think that is a silly mentality but I am sure its a factor. However, by doing that these untested people may be making the earlier story of this lineage unclear.

Of course it doesn't help that Niall's GG-Grandfather was Cairbre Lifechair, who the Aírghialla claim was the father of the three Colla's (Colla Uais etc.). Of course the really interesting characters in his "ancestry" are:

Cormac mac Airt (Cormac ua Conn) -- GGG-Grandfather, famous obviously as the High King during the Fenian Cycle (Fionn mac Cumhal etc.)Conn Cétchathach (of the Hundred battles) --- GGGGG-Grandfather, whom the Dál Cuinn are named after -- and thus also the Connachta

awh mythology/folklore is fun! Personally I think that been able to claim descent from either Conn or Art would trump Niall -- but that's just my opinion :-)

Being a descendant of Nialls GG grandfather may be less attractive to pay money to be. I think that is a silly mentality but I am sure its a factor. However, by doing that these untested people may be making the earlier story of this lineage unclear.

Of course it doesn't help that Niall's GG-Grandfather was Cairbre Lifechair, who the Aírghialla claim was the father of the three Colla's (Colla Uais etc.). Of course the really interesting characters in his "ancestry" are:

Cormac mac Airt (Cormac ua Conn) -- GGG-Grandfather, famous obviously as the High King during the Fenian Cycle (Fionn mac Cumhal etc.)Conn Cétchathach (of the Hundred battles) --- GGGGG-Grandfather, whom the Dál Cuinn are named after -- and thus also the Connachta

awh mythology/folklore is fun! Personally I think that been able to claim descent from either Conn or Art would trump Niall -- but that's just my opinion :-)

-Paul(DF41+)

I agree, and Tuathal Techtmair somewhere a few generations before that. I find the pre-Niall part of the lineage as depicted in mythology far more interesting, much better tales than anything surviving about Niall. However, they dont have as good an agent as Niall in this hobby! Also I am not too sure about the pre-Niall lineage. Its all a bit confusion though they way they are depticted as kings of Tara. Also seems contradictory with the Ulster Cycle version of the royalty of Connaught although I suppose that was depticting Connaught before Conn and before the Connachta. I suspect the Connaught men in the Ulster Cycle might really be Fir Domnainn although this has been blurred.

I think FTDNA# 164101 John S. Dougherty 1794-1867, Ireland, could be added to the 49-23-11-A Group. He's a GD of -3 (64/67) with me and I believe -4 or -5 with Bonnet and Greenlee. His origin is listed as Ireland on the Doherty Project. His Ysearch ID is MYXKS.

I agree, and Tuathal Techtmair somewhere a few generations before that. I find the pre-Niall part of the lineage as depicted in mythology far more interesting, much better tales than anything surviving about Niall. However, they dont have as good an agent as Niall in this hobby! Also I am not too sure about the pre-Niall lineage. Its all a bit confusion though they way they are depticted as kings of Tara. Also seems contradictory with the Ulster Cycle version of the royalty of Connaught although I suppose that was depticting Connaught before Conn and before the Connachta. I suspect the Connaught men in the Ulster Cycle might really be Fir Domnainn although this has been blurred.

Well the interesting twist is that the earliest texts on the Ulster Cycle are centered around Tara and not Cruchán Ai. One good example is a poem from the munster poet Luccreth moccu Chiara who lived in 7th century Kerry, this poem is called: Conailla Medb míchuru ("Medb enjoined evil contracts"). Here's the general description of it from wiki:

Quote

The 73-line poem Conailla Medb Míchuru ("Medb enjoined evil contracts") is preserved, along with a later prose introduction, in a genealogical tract in the 15th century manuscript Laud Misc 610 in the Bodleian Library,[5] and has been edited and translated by P. L. Henry.[6] It contains one of the earliest references in Irish literature to events and characters of the Ulster Cycle, telling of the Ulaid hero Fergus mac Róich's exile from his king, Conchobar, to queen Medb and king Ailill, and his involvement in their war over the Ulaid's cattle. However, his exile is not in Connacht, as in the extant versions of Táin Bó Cúailnge and related stories, but in Tara. Cú Chulainn does not appear, his role taken by Fergus' son Fiacc, who defends the Ulaid against his father's battalions. The poem goes on to tell how the descendants of the Ulaid hero Cethern settled in the midlands, and later migrated to Munster in the time of Óengus mac Nad Froích (d. 490).[6] Luccreth refers to the material he presents as sen-eolas ("old knowledge"), traditional material passed down from his ancestors.[7]

Let's put this into context the earliest versions of the Táin (which Kinsella translated in the 1960's) are from the late 11/early 12th century. Though the language in them is probably at least from the 8th/9th century.

Connacht wasn't even named after the Connachta during the period the Táin is suppose to have happened (in and around late 1st century BC).

Obviously around Niall there is some saga's specifically "The Adventures of the Sons of Eochaid Mugmedon". Conn though obviously has a number of "esctactic vision" stories such as "Baile in Scáil" (Buile an Scáth) -- the phantoms "rage" (vision) and " Baile Chuinn Cétchathaigh" which interesting enough are generally early King's list which involve the god Lugh (Lú)

Has anyone heard of the idea that somewhere like Athenry was a major power centre and there was a lot of revisionism to make Tara more important?I vaguely remember something about it on DNA Forums, one thing I remember that was put forward was that in The Tain an army marches towards somewhere like Athlone which was way out of the route they had to go if Tara was an important site.

Has anyone heard of the idea that somewhere like Athenry was a major power centre and there was a lot of revisionism to make Tara more important?I vaguely remember something about it on DNA Forums, one thing I remember that was put forward was that in The Tain an army marches towards somewhere like Athlone which was way out of the route they had to go if Tara was an important site.

Well the route doesn't go by Athlone, which would be expected tbh as Cruachan Ai is in North Roscommon. The reference to Athlone is in the final scene after the battle of the bulls. When Donn Cuailnge (The Brown of Cooley) killed Finnbhennach (White-Horn) he wander about the place with Finnbhennachs remains on his horns, tossing different body parts off at different places. This was then used to explain the origin of placenames.

Obviously in this case the story claims that it was the Loin/Haunch of Finnbhennach that was cast off the horns of Donn Cuailnge at Athlone (Ath Luain)

This would probably be a false etymology of the name used for poetic affect.

Anyways Tara isn't really mentioned at all in the Táin, however as mentioned it's the setting in earliest bits of poetry. Perhaps what you are seeing thus is memory of the Dál Cuinn as a more unified grouping. After all by the 8th/9th century Tara and the Kingdom of Midhe (Mí) was the perserve of the Southern Uí Néill, whereas their near relatives the "Three Connachta" were west of the Shannon in the province that still bears their names to this day.

As for the topic, I believe there is another member of the Uí Máine Kelly's who has just ordered DF23, he's 111 STR tested and had previous done deep clade so is confirmed M222-.

I think FTDNA# 164101 John S. Dougherty 1794-1867, Ireland, could be added to the 49-23-11-A Group. He's a GD of -3 (64/67) with me and I believe -4 or -5 with Bonnet and Greenlee. His origin is listed as Ireland on the Doherty Project. His Ysearch ID is MYXKS.

JJBodamer here:I came across this three-part conversation last night and notified B. Traynor, since so far, he's my closest match at 12 AND 25. [http://www.geni.com/share?t=6000000000741514606]My question is: could this anomaly be attributable to somebody cheatin' on somebody, or did an Irishman pick up sticks long, long ago and relocate to the beautiful city of Wurttemberg for a six-figure salary?I'm waiting on Geno 2.0 results now, perhaps they will help figure this out?Thanks for any assistance or speculation, r.

JJBodamer here:I came across this three-part conversation last night and notified B. Traynor, since so far, he's my closest match at 12 AND 25. [http://www.geni.com/share?t=6000000000741514606]My question is: could this anomaly be attributable to somebody cheatin' on somebody, or did an Irishman pick up sticks long, long ago and relocate to the beautiful city of Wurttemberg for a six-figure salary?I'm waiting on Geno 2.0 results now, perhaps they will help figure this out?Thanks for any assistance or speculation, r.

Here are some examples of contacts between Baden Wurttemburg (and surrounding area) and Ireland from the 7th - 12th centuries.