Wednesday, August 5, 2009

This is from videos I saw on BN's blog. I hadn't seen him before, but I really like his style. He's funny, but it's Islamic advice, yknow?

I was mostly thinking about the first video, in which he talks about teenagers and letting them get married early, even if they don't have their degree, their career going, even if they don't have a home yet, to keep them away from sin.

I can't help but agree. I really think it's going about it the wrong way to have men wait until they are about 30 before they can get married because they haven't been able to save up for a house before then. This seems to happen a lot in Egypt and seriously, they'd all be better off getting married much earlier than that!

One of my husband's friends is engaged right now... has been for a few months. When I congratulated him, I asked him when he was getting married and he said it was undetermined, but over a year from then. I was really kinda shocked!! He will hang out with her often for the next year, with a woman who is really his non-maharam. And this is haram. Things should be done to keep this to a minimum... And seriously, I can only *hope* they will only hang out, go out, take trips, etc. while not being married and not worse, because the temptation will sure be there for them every step of the way! It will be so easy to give in!

So as the video was saying, even if the person doesn't have a house yet, isn't out of university and working full time, it would be better for them to get married now, even if they have to live with the parents (if they have a spare room), than to leave them with the temptation of zina.

The only thing that I had trouble accepting was the ages he ends up mentioning. 13-14-15-16, along those young ages, if I can remember. I have to say that I would not accept my child to be married at that age! 16 can become a possibility if I know she is very mature for her age and responsable, but I know from my own experience that it is so unlikely to happen. I was always a calm, mature person, but even I wouldn't have considered myself ready before 18 or so! And for a male child, it would have to be a bit later than that. He DOES need to be the one who ends up providing, and at 16, in this day and age, he is not even close!

I understand relying on parents for a while and I agree that it is a better alternative than added years of temptation, but if they *did* get married at 15, the chances of becoming parents before they're even out of highschool is just WAY TOO BIG! A person shouldn't be married until they are responsable enough, and part of this responsability of marriage for most people is being a family (with children).

So my personal conclusion is that in a case similar to my husband's friend, having finished his university and started working full time 3 or 4 years ago, even if he is not set in his life and still living with his parents, he is an adult, and it would be best for him to get married to the girl he's engaged to!

BUT in the case of a horny teenager living with his parents and not finished highschool, he or she needs to be taught not to hang out with others of the opposite sex and have their parents support them and understand them in their hardships, and also have their parents continue to teach and show them what it is to be in a married relationship until they are more ready.

I agreed with his message, I would just change the ages to 17-23 or so for these young people who'd be better off getting married, not 13-17!

That reminds me about this girl who I met on a chat room. She said she was 11 and has a baby and I was like, "WHAT?!" She then explained that she got raped and was at the time having trouble taking care of the baby.

Anyways, I'd say the maturity of a teenager would depend on where and when he/she grew up in. Sometimes due to our cultures and friends, we take a lot more time to mature. I agree that if parents notice their child becoming something like a wild sex addict, they should teach him that fornication is a sin and the best way around is to get married, but he'll need to be responsible and mature first. I'm definitely sure after that sort of advice, the child would begin to focus on achieving that goal. At least that's what I'm trying to do now.

Hi sis Candice,you've got a really thought-provoking blog, masha Allah. :-)As for the whole marriage thing, I wish first of all couples dont meet up before the Nikah, just the one-off meeting should be enough. It's just playing with fire and you are bound to get hurt.

I also agree with you about the age thing. Although my grandmother married my grandfather when she was 14 and they stayed married until he died.. There is a big difference in the girls way back when and the girls of today. Today we are just spoiling them or trying to keep them kids. They are just not as mature as they were back then. There is a big difference.. The mind set was just different. Back then children had chores that prepared them for the responsibility of adulthood. My grandmother was helping in the kitchen, cooking, cleaning, watching after the younger ones and taking care of the things that a woman is expected to do. The boys had to mow the lawn and help their father around the house or in the fields. Teaching them all about responsibility. But today it isn't like that, they are on their computers, their cell phone, or always hanging out with friends. They have become lazy. Either mom or the maid is cleaning up after them.. Heck they don't even clean their rooms or make their beds anymore. Because they aren't given a structure or rules in their life. The girls want everything done for them.

And the same for the boys... They are afraid to get their hands dirty from doing the slightest bit of work. They just wanna hang out with their buddies all night doing whatever shaitan has whispered for them to do. When back in the old days boys were full grown men by the time they were 17 or 18. They knew what hard work was and how it payed off. They knew how to take care of a family. They knew how valuable daylight was. Because come 4 am they were eating their breakfast and getting ready to head out the door to work with their dad or whatever. But now it is stay up hanging out all night doing vain things and sleep all day.

It is the parents fault for making them that way. Even some of the parents become lazy. If you dont have little kids and a job, why does a woman need a maid? Just so she can lay on her butt all day. And even so if she has children? Whats up with needing a maid? Most of our grandmothers raised 5 or more children and took care of the home their selves..albeit they stayed at home and didn't have a public job. But even my mother, she worked a public job. We had a babysitter when we were little, but after mom got off work she took over. Mom cooked, gave us our baths and everything.. By the time I had reached 12 there were no more babysitters, I was expected to clean the house and start dinner by the time she got home. The boys went with dad to work in fields and other days was mowing the lawn and doing things like that. But now most people are afraid of alittle hard work.

I agree about you changing those ages. 13 - 17 for boys is too young. I would say under 20 for men is quite young too. My SIL got an engagement offer from a man and he wouldn't have been even considered if he didn't have a stable job & the ability to take care of her financially if need be. I think even in non-Islamic marriages the man bares the cost of many things so to marry at such a young age would be difficult. Much better for the parents to guide them, as you said. But you know what? I'm 18 (yep) and my relationship with M (25) is wonderful. It's a mature one, one where we both have responsibilities and one where we work together to build an even better relationship between the two of us. So I know that it can work when young women are around that age, I'm jut not too sure about the young men :P

I think young marriage (late teens onwards) is more natural than decade(s) of celibacy. Living with parents/in less spacious conditions than we are used to in the west is probably character-building too. The main implications would be on the girl's education and career. Even if they didn't have kids immediately, a couple can't easily both chase careers, usually one has to sacrifice for the other. She would then be more dependent on her husband I think. What would be the economic impact society-wide? I'm not sure. Interesting to think about!

Stacy: You're absolutely right. I didn't even mention the physical part. It really takes a few years to really develop and even if a woman can physically have children once she begins menstruating (probably at 13 on average), there are other things that are not developped physically.

Sir Adib: I can't help but think that the girl you're chatting with was just trying to get attention. But it's definitely possible that it's true. And you're right, people mature at different ages; some much earlier than others.

Alisha, thanks so much for the compliment on my blog! :) And yeah, that would be the ideal: just that one meeting. I'd personally need more than one... There'd be lots of things that I'd need to ask and know about, more than we can say in one meeting. But it's best to keep it to a minimum.

BN: I think it's good to learn responsability from a young age, but there's a limit. I wouldn't *choose* for my daughter to have to take care of the house at 10 and cook for us, or take care of younger siblings. I have the luxury of choosing for her a better childhood where she can play with friends and discover the world stress-free. I want her to slowly enter the world of responsability with picking up toys as soon as she understands the concept, clearing up toys, then having fun projects and experiences cooking with me, then learning responsability through her homework and school things, all the while learning responsability one has towards people around them in treating them well, respecting promises, etc. Those are the important things they need to learn and I don't think a person needs a tough life like it was. But yes, the kids now are so spoiled and it's all the parents fault. They've become spoiled too, not being envolved enough and letting tv and computer babysit their kids so they can relax a bit more. We have so much available now for us to let our kids have a great, fun, easy and educational childhood all at once, but some people overuse all these resources and just become plain lazy in raising the children... And it sucks to see that.

Ellen: Yes, I find 20 young too! I'd just turned 19 when I got married to my husband and he was 23and I think I was a lot more ready than he was! Women really do mature faster than men. You probably would never have been able to find a "marriable" man the same age as you are! My brother is 20 now and seriously, he's so far from adulthood! He's still the whiney thinks-he-knows-things teenager he was a couple years ago! Gotta love him anyway though. lol. He's a great guy, just not as mature as I was at his age :p

Sarah: Yes, SO TRUE! What are men doing to themselves, staying celebate until the late 20s or so. The ones who actually care about not having sex before marriage, that is. The others don't get married until their 30s, but they had time to have plenty of sex before that at least.

I think your point about the woman's education depends a lot. If they are OK with birth control, they can easily be married, living together, and not having any extra responsabilities than continuing on their education or whatever else.

If they are against birth control, then yeah, they'd likely fall pregnant soon enough and the woman would have to put everything on hold for a good while.

I think of early marriage as mid to late teens even 20. It is acceptable and halal and sunnah and appropriate for some individuals, but I just am not an admirer of the idea. It seems irresponsible for two people to get married who are wholly unequipped for life and completely dependent on their families. I’m not talking about being young and struggling financially while finishing up university or being young, just starting out in life and living in your parents’ basement.

I think of early marriage as a union between two people not emotionally equipped to for life. What that means, I suppose, depends on the individual. My cousins who married in their late teens all went through the same issues. They knew the motions, but they weren’t really prepared for the reality. They weren’t prepared for the fact that they were still growing as people.

My feelings are purely personal bias. My family and culture are all for marrying young (mid to late teens for women, early 20s for men). I was pushed to marry young, but I just didn’t. It’s not that I was pampered. It’s not that I was immature emotionally or physically. I just wasn’t ready.

There is a huge difference between getting married and being married off.

I physically had my period at eight and was mature enough for marriage (as mature as I am now) at eleven/thirteen. I know this seems odd for people because in places where children tend to be more spoiled, I lived a bit in Africa and there isn't really a tentative childhood there in some places and I grew up knowing that about the world. I think of Aisha R.A I would have married a man that I loved and knew the good character of at thirteen had my parents allowed it (he was sixteen and we'd grown up together since we were three but said he could wait until I hit eighteen before taking me out on a date lol because the world would look at him like he was a pervert). Anyways, he died young in an accident, and I ended up waiting until I was 19. Alhamdulilah, I am glad I married when I did, since it kept me from committing evil. And my husband says he wishes he had met me when he was younger, to have kept himself from committing evil too. I think marrying as young as ALL that that though, really depends on the maturity of the girl. Most girls here in the West aren't mature enough at eighteen, lol, but I knew the Imam's daughter here, and she was ready at sixteen, alhamdulilah, and that has worked out for her and her husband who is also young.

Although most people consider a girl/boy to be an adult once they hit 18 I honestly dont think they are mature enough to get married and raise a family. But then again I guess it depends on the person. I know this guy who was a father when he was 19 ( the wife was a year older), but he made a great dad and was very responsible.

Pixie: Thanks for your comment. Definitely the way they are raised has a lot to do with how soon they mature. I still find it so hard to imagine a girl mature enough for marriage at 13, but this is what I was raised in and I haven't been in touch with a culture or time that made mature kids like you have. It really is so hard to imagine for me!

WhiteOrchid: It happens for sure... I am trying to think of a balance between being ready for all the responsabilities that come with being married, and not waiting so long that there is too much temptation. I mean, we must get this "desire" at a certain age for a reason... I think it can be controlled pretty well for a few years, but that would make the man in his early 20s, no older.

Wow those ages are so young! It annoys me that there are people who think that because those were the marriage ages at the time of the Prophet they should be applied now. Times have changed people, as well as life expectancies!To be honest I find it weird to marry someone you don't know well. But like you said many Muslims consider it haram to "hang out" before marriage. I wonder what a solution to this is.

I also think things change with the time. The main ideas and guidelines do not, but there are some things that are flexible, like the age a person gets married at. As you said, life expectancies have changed too!

About hanging out before marriage, I think it's not necessary 100% and isn't the best of ideas, even though I feel like I'd prefer that to get a good feel for what kind of person he is before making a life changing decision. I think it can be done with chaperones. A few meetings where all the questions are asked, from what they imagine their roles being around the house and at work, how many kids, thoughts on birth control, how open they are about sex and those expectations. Some questions would be awkward, especially with a chaperone, but people need to have the same ideas. And more fun things like what they like to do, etc. Over a few sessions, I think a person gets an idea of what kind of relationship they could be getting into. And it would have been done in an Islamic way.

Another thing I think is that if they are doing it the Islamic way, it's because Islam is important to them, and they would be choosing their partner for how religious he is too. And two people who base their whole lives on Islam should be able to manage a good marriage together. It's the people who don't who really need much more time with the person before getting into a serious relationship with them.

I gotta agree with you on this, the earlier the better in my opinion. But not too early. For myself, I'd say I've been ready to marry since I turned 19.

A childhood friend of mine (a guy) got married last month and he is 21. All his siblings married at around the same age, 20 to 23 and I think that's sort of the perfect age. I'm sure his parents are helping him out financially though as he has just graduated, but I think that's fine, I'd be ok with my future husband's parents doing that.

I believe when someone is ready to marry depends on the person. I started my period when I was ten and was done growing at twelve. So even at that age i would have been able to give birth without any complications. I believe even when i started my period it would have been safe (not that i would have had children, just that it would have been safe to) because if it wasn't Allah (SWT) would not have allowed marriage when a woman starts her menses.I am 17 and married, while my husband was 19 when we married and alhamdullilah it has worked out wonderfully. Not to mention it is Sunnah to marry young.

I didn't watch the video yet, sorry, but I read your post and I really agree with what you're saying. I worry about young people leaving it for so long because of the tempation thing...and why? I think it's quite misguided. I also wrote a blog post on pretty much the same issue. :)