No duh Sherlock, we killed him in the Black Temple. He was referring to him still being alive after we had killed him... to which i responded.

Also, as a side note:

(thought bubble) "Jaylock wonders to himself how many of these posters actually played TBC while it was RELEVANT content..." "I wonder how many of these posters actually completed all of TBC raid content while it was RELEVANT content..."

''Shampro wonders why A) Jaylock still comes to these forums if he hates the game B) Why he is still not banned.''

No duh Sherlock, we killed him in the Black Temple. He was referring to him still being alive after we had killed him... to which i responded.

Also, as a side note:

(thought bubble) "Jaylock wonders to himself how many of these posters actually played TBC while it was RELEVANT content..." "I wonder how many of these posters actually completed all of TBC raid content while it was RELEVANT content..."

I was referring to the TBC, it was supposed to be "retrospect" or whatever it's called, when he was still alive in patch 2.1.
(thought bubble) "Archeus9 plays WoW since EU release in Feb 05 and he completed every raid when it was current content. But that don't change a thing about horrible TBC storytelling."

No duh Sherlock, we killed him in the Black Temple. He was referring to him still being alive after we had killed him... to which i responded.

Also, as a side note:

(thought bubble) "Jaylock wonders to himself how many of these posters actually played TBC while it was RELEVANT content..." "I wonder how many of these posters actually completed all of TBC raid content while it was RELEVANT content..."

Whether you completed the content then is irrelevant to a lore discussion.

Its completely relevant to a lore discussion, because people who zip through content just to get into the next expansions content hardly are immersed in the lore of the expansion they zipped through. You did not do every single quest, read all the books, quest texts, and experience the lore in the raids like they were meant to be experienced.

If you were not a part of history, it seems less relevant and unimportant, which is what people who never played TBC while it was relevant content seem to always do / say about it.

Its completely relevant to a lore discussion, because people who zip through content just to get into the next expansions content hardly are immersed in the lore of the expansion they zipped through. You did not do every single quest, read all the books, quest texts, and experience the lore in the raids like they were meant to be experienced.

If you were not a part of history, it seems less relevant and unimportant, which is what people who never played TBC while it was relevant content seem to always do / say about it.

No reason? He gives plenty of reason. His behaviour isn't exactly what one would call innocuous.
You don't need to have a mouth like a sailor to be insulting.

Being insulted is a CHOICE you make. You can choose to or not to, you are the only one who can control that. If you dont like my opinions, or thoughts, you are free to disagree. We will agree to disagree.

World of Warcraft: The Burning Crusade is the Very Best Expansion Ever Made

Well, I responded to this thread before I saw the pointless and off-topic arguing. Please, please do not feed into the derailment, folks. This could be a good discussion and I don't want to see this thread locked

Well, I responded to this thread before I saw the pointless and off-topic arguing. Please, please do not feed into the derailment, folks. This could be a good discussion and I don't want to see this thread locked

Just because you are a writer doesn't make your view of writing good. There are many terrible writers / books out there. (not saying you are terrible, just making a point)

TBC was the most connected, well written lore they had. It stemmed from their popular RTS games. Lore in mope is now made up on the spot...

And how was the lore for that RTS golden era concocted you think? It just fell from on high whole and complete? WCIII lore , and by extension TBC lore, was completely made up on the spot, since any lore in WCI&II was barely even existant.

Last edited by Urti; 2013-01-17 at 08:02 PM.

"Stop being a giant trolling asshole." - Boubouille
"The Internet is built on complaints about asinine things" - prefect
"Facts became discussable when critical thinking stopped being the focus of education."- Chonogo
"Sometimes people confuse "We Don't Understand This Yet" with "Ooga Booga Space Magic" - Chazus

Its completely relevant to a lore discussion, because people who zip through content just to get into the next expansions content hardly are immersed in the lore of the expansion they zipped through. You did not do every single quest, read all the books, quest texts, and experience the lore in the raids like they were meant to be experienced.

If you were not a part of history, it seems less relevant and unimportant, which is what people who never played TBC while it was relevant content seem to always do / say about it.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with whether you did the content when it was "relevant", but with how much attention you paid to it when you were doing it.

Originally Posted by Jaylock

Being insulted is a CHOICE you make. You can choose to or not to, you are the only one who can control that. If you dont like my opinions, or thoughts, you are free to disagree. We will agree to disagree.

Right. That's bullshit and you know it. Getting insulted is not a choice you yourself make. Being insulted by trivialities may be, but that's not what we're talking about here.

Its completely relevant to a lore discussion, because people who zip through content just to get into the next expansions content hardly are immersed in the lore of the expansion they zipped through. You did not do every single quest, read all the books, quest texts, and experience the lore in the raids like they were meant to be experienced.

If you were not a part of history, it seems less relevant and unimportant, which is what people who never played TBC while it was relevant content seem to always do / say about it.

Hold up, cuz this is also a response to your opinion on my previous post.

You claim TBC's story was epic and amazing, correct?

I'll explain to you what any logical person who doesn't wear Rose Tinted glasses and who reflects on the "good ole days" would say the story was:

1. First off, plot holes. Why is it suddenly, after all these years, the portals have opened? I still have no idea why. What kind of plot device is it that "hey Portal's suddenly open. Let's jump inside and kill demons cuz I mean, it's not like we still have a Lich King or Black Dragonflight to deal with on Azeroth or anything.

2. Who the hell was the main villain? They hinted, and I say this correctly, that Illidan was the main villain, and I think they even stated he was. If that were true, aside from Shadowmoon Valley, why didn't I feel an ounce of him being this "villain" throughout any of the other zones? And why was this "main villain" killed in the 2nd patch? Oh, hey, we finally found a hole in the Black Temple. Let's go inside, kill Illidan, and the Expansion is over.

Due to the above fact, and the story reaching a very abrubt end, Blizzard had to conventionally craft another Main Villain, who for one hadn't even been seen nor heard of for the entire expansion, and wasn't even truly hinted at.

This brings me to my 3rd points..

3. Identity Criss and Coherency. There isn't a single ounce of coherency in the story of Outlands. I felt discombobulated with every zone I went to like I did in Cataclysm. Sure, each zone had their story, but none of them, for me at least, pointed toward the MAin Story arc, which I STILL have no idea what it could possibly be.

As for Identity Crisis, let's look at Kaelthas. Not only does it not explain fully why he's suddenly siding with the Legion after years of servitude to Illidan, but they also pull out the biggest cop out of the century: "Merely a Setback". And so we're forced to fight a villain, who should've been killed off in Tempest Keep, who's half dead.

To add to that fact, instead of going back to his Blood Elf people, who were CLEARLY happy with the Horde, he follows the idiotic path down to the Burning Legion and Kil jaeden, who comes out of no where and is proclaimed the true villain of TBC.

Somehow he's summoned through the Sunwell.

Somehow he was in talks with Kaelthas.

The ENTIRE reason anyone enjoyed him as a villain was because he's a big bad guy, and the community always loves fighting a big bad guy.

It's Deathwing Syndrome: not enough development on characters, too many loose ends, and in the end a very weak story.

So let's summarize my points, Jaylock, on your so called "Perfect Expansion":

A. Quests that in truth only add a marginal understanding to why we're even in Outland and who we're fighting.

B. The main villain being killed off in no time at all, along with a minimalistic amount of development on him except for the actual instance he was in.

C. A secondary villain aka Kaelthas who is faced with an absolute cop out, and revives an even larger cop out in the process, which causes the story to truly show its brittle signs.

D. An enemy we have no idea we're fighting, and incoherency between every single zone. I STILL don't know why I was in Shadowmoon Valley. Was I fighting the Arrokoa? Oh, wait, no, Illidan? Wait was it the Burning Legion..I HAVE NO CLUE. Oh wait where are the Naga? Weren't they the bad guys? Wait no that was just Zangarmash... What about the Gronns? Huh? They're not here too? Oh! How about those Blood Elf Separtists? Oh, wait, they're barely here.

Do you get it now?

I know you said my opinion as a writer is subjective, because I could like Catcher In The Rye while another writer hates it, or I could write an amazing book that some critics could pan while others could praise.

The point is..there was NO legitimate story in BC that made any sense.

Mists offers a much better story telling perspective, with actual cutscenes, along with not too many plot threads for us to truly see who the main villain (s) is/are, what we're fighting for, who we are fighting, and what happens if we lose.

Get it now?

I'll make more points if you want. My post may not make 100% sense because I'm using a different keyboard and it was straining my hands to write this, so it would've been MUCH longer and more concise, but please, try and argue writing with me. I know a good story and plot when I see one.

---------- Post added 2013-01-17 at 09:03 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Jaylock

Being insulted is a CHOICE you make. You can choose to or not to, you are the only one who can control that. If you dont like my opinions, or thoughts, you are free to disagree. We will agree to disagree.

And just to add to my point:

We can all agree or disagree.

We all have opinions and that's fine.

We all CAN'T just listen to our own opinion and have no room for compromise.

In half the posts you make, you are biased and do not listen to other people's opinions.

No duh Sherlock, we killed him in the Black Temple. He was referring to him still being alive after we had killed him... to which i responded.

Also, as a side note:

(thought bubble) "Jaylock wonders to himself how many of these posters actually played TBC while it was RELEVANT content..." "I wonder how many of these posters actually completed all of TBC raid content while it was RELEVANT content..."

I did, Jaylock. I also played the RTS games. And I absolutely hated the majority of BC lore.

Kael's "setback" was uninspired, not to mention the fact that he and Vasjh and Illidan turning into insane villains for the sake of loot-dropping cameos and bases for raid instances was ham-fisted and clunky writing, turning against the original characterization of those people from the RTS games, but the quests were scattered and incoherent, barely better than the classic leveling content, which I also experienced on both of the characters I played at the time.

Certainly there were good moments of story. I truly did enjoy some parts of Shadowmoon Valley, for example, and Netherwing was good. Sunwell was great.

But we are less than halfway through Mists of Pandaria, and it already has a greater amount of better-written, more coherent, more accessible, more compelling, and more mysterious lore than BC.

Also, he was referring to the BC timeline in that post. We saw Illidan fail at the end of Frozen Throne, we didn't know for certain he was even alive when BC came out, I remember a lot of surprise at that. There was never a good explanation as to why he was now the enemy.

I did, Jaylock. I also played the RTS games. And I absolutely hated the majority of BC lore.

Kael's "setback" was uninspired, not to mention the fact that he and Vasjh and Illidan turning into insane villains for the sake of loot-dropping cameos and bases for raid instances was ham-fisted and clunky writing, turning against the original characterization of those people from the RTS games, but the quests were scattered and incoherent, barely better than the classic leveling content, which I also experienced on both of the characters I played at the time.

Certainly there were good moments of story. I truly did enjoy some parts of Shadowmoon Valley, for example, and Netherwing was good. Sunwell was great.

But we are less than halfway through Mists of Pandaria, and it already has a greater amount of better-written, more coherent, more accessible, more compelling, and more mysterious lore than BC.

Also, he was referring to the BC timeline in that post. We saw Illidan fail at the end of Frozen Throne, we didn't know for certain he was even alive when BC came out, I remember a lot of surprise at that. There was never a good explanation as to why he was now the enemy.

Thank you, Daetur.

I mean, I'm a writer, and I've done a break down of each Expansion's story.

Cataclysm did a better job with the story than BC did.

CATACLYSM. The expansion I had so many gripes with Lore wise because of the incoherency.

It's just mindboggling, not just this issue, but so many others with BC or Vanilla.

People look back on it and say "that was amazing", when it was the same feeling you would've had if you were playing Mists or even Cata or Wrath back in that time period.