Nihil believes that UWb Fish should remain its own thread, since Fish is fundamentally different from most of the other Stoneblade lists, and I'm willing to concede his point. Since UWb Esperblade is a different deck than both Blade Control and Patriot, I decided to start a new thread to discuss this deck.

This thread will be for any UWb aggro/control decklist running some number of Stoneforge Mystic and equipment. Lists with the Thopter Foundry/Sword of the Meek combo are welcome, for example. U/W/b lists that are more control than aggro/control likely belong in the Blade Control thread, but feel free to post those in here as well.

To start things off, here is my current list. It's more "fishy" than most Stoneblade lists, but it's been performing exceedingly well:

I'm not running any Jace, the Mind Sculptor, which is generally considered a staple to most for "Stoneblade" decks, but this deck is already chock-full of card advantage, and doesn't need an alternate win condition. I'd fit him in if I had the room, but there's nothing I'm willing to cut to do so... maybe a Ponder and a Clique for 2 Jace TMS or something, but I'm not sure that would overall be more effective. Lifeloss to Confidant is also relevant.

Other than that, this deck is pretty much everything I'd want from an aggro/control deck. Every single creature threat in this deck is more than just a creature - they all provide either virtual or actual card advantage. The deck runs more than enough means to stabilize into the midgame, where its little fishy creatures turn into serious threats in the redzone through support from Mother of Runes and Umezawa's Jitte.

An excerpt, taken from my U/W/b Fish thread:

The fundamental structure of the deck is obviously a blue-based aggro/control deck, but it differs greatly from the green splashed versions; rather than attacking with fat (Goyf, Knight, etc), it uses "Grizzly Bears" that offer incredibly powerful abilities. The fact that these bears are both bodies and abilities, that in and of itself is card advantage. However, the abilities themselves generate both virtual and actual card advantage directly, which sets this deck far apart from other aggro/control strategies.

The deck is fantastic at surviving the early game through a host of defensive means. 12 (free) countermagic spells, Sculler (Thoughtseize on a stick), Mother of Runes (protection from removal/wall against aggro), and Swords to Plowshares are all fantastic at getting me into the midgame. It's very conceivable to get to the midgame with the opponent having absolutely nothing on the table (besides land). Sure, Tarmogoyf is a monstrous wall against a swarm of 2/2's and smaller, but if Goyf never sticks, a few 2/2's on a clean board are an impressive clock.

Once I'm in the midgame, there are few decks that can survive the absurd amount of card advantage that this deck creates. Every single creature creates either virtual or actual card advantage, and when combined with equipment, can quickly close a game out, either immediately, or by being so far ahead of the opponent in board development that they can never come back. Mother of Runes and equipment dominate the red zone, and all of the card advantage and control elements prevent the opponent from recovering.

After playtesting, I'm convinced that this deck has the ability to be a force in the metagame. It obviously has a strong combo matchup, but it also has a strong control matchup, with solid matchups across the board. Aggro is by no means a bad matchup either; between Mother of Runes and equipment, this deck has plenty of tools for combatting aggro. Combined with discard/countermagic/removal keeping the board relatively clear, and card advantage to keep the control coming, I'm very pleased with this deck.

I also want to make it clear that I am not saying that this deck is instant Tier 1, the next DTB, and that it's going to dominate the format. All I'm saying is that rather than being an unplayable fringe deck, this deck is actually a very good deck and definitely has the potential to make Top 8 finishes. Considering that other "Stoneblade" decks have already done so, that statement should not be farfetched.

That above excerpt does not need to apply to every Stoneblade list that gets posted in this thread, but it's a good starting point for those going a more aggro/control approach like I am.

Enjoy.

Aggro_zombies

07-12-2011, 10:06 PM

Can't wait for the next set to contain a 1G creature that completely obsoletes this deck.

Nice deck, anyway. Why only two Stoneforges?

Hanni

07-12-2011, 11:35 PM

Can't wait for the next set to contain a 1G creature that completely obsoletes this deck.

Nice deck, anyway. Why only two Stoneforges?

Tarmogoyf didn't completely obsolete Fish. It put it at a huge disadvantage at that time, and while I could have further developed the deck to compensate, there was so much design space and innovation opened up elsewhere, that I shelved the deck.

I'm only running 2 SFM's because I don't need equipment until the midgame. The goal here is not to cheat a Batterskull into play as soon as possible. I also only run 2 equipment spells, and midgame SFM's with nothing to grab is lackluster. However, I could just as easily cut the 1-2 Cliques for 1-2 more SFM's, and it's altogether possible that doing so would be better overall. This decklist isn't extensively playtested and fine-tuned yet.

obituary 95

07-13-2011, 12:21 AM

you might want to consider swaping out ponder for preordain

Solar Ice

07-13-2011, 12:49 PM

you might want to consider swaping out ponder for preordain

Ponder lets you see up to 4 cards, Preordain only up to 3. Ponder is strictly the better card.

Scordata

07-13-2011, 12:56 PM

Not to derail, but in an aggro-control shell Preordain is head and shoulders above Ponder. The only exception to this rule is if you have multiple Dark Confidants in play. Also, if you have multiple Dark Confidants in play, cantrips are useless.

keys

07-13-2011, 01:14 PM

If you're going to run Batterskull, you really need 4 SFM, otherwise it's going to get stuck in your hand way too often.

Einherjer

07-13-2011, 01:17 PM

I play BW Stonebladeguy(from Deadguy^^) and a version, kinda similar to this.... but one MAIN POINT:
OMG PLAY 4 SFM! Really dude its like... play NO Bant without Progenitus and 2 Natural Order....man....

Honoluluicecaps

07-13-2011, 02:14 PM

I keep wanting to build a U/W/B version of this deck, but the creature suite is something that I always have a problem with. My version currently just runs 4x SFM, 4x Bob, 3x Clique, and 3x Blossom... but it's too schizo and doesn't know if it's supposed to be control or be more aggro. I'll see if I can jam in Mom and/or Sculler.

I don't know that I love running black though in any of these decks without Hymn. I get that it's double black, but with the exception of Confidant it really IS the reason worth splashing black in the first place imho. Having said that, I know Hanni's experience with Fish as an archetype so I respect the direction he's going with it... I just think it's worth running some combination of Hymn and Bob (and potentially BB) in most UWB versions.

Also, I agree with not necessarily running Jace (as most of these builds do). I just bought mine, so I feel a little lame about not being able to play with them, but there is already a ton of CA in these decks and you really don't need a second wincon.

Leto

07-13-2011, 03:28 PM

In my opinion your Creature-Suite would benefit from playing Vial ( especially SFM and Sculler, but Bob and Mom too). On the other side is your creature-count really low for Vial and its a bad Topdeck (which could be avoided by all the CA/CQ the deck packs). As I'm not really experienced in Fish-Decks, I would like to hear your opinion on this.

theross

07-13-2011, 05:22 PM

Ponder lets you see up to 4 cards, Preordain only up to 3. Ponder is strictly the better card.

This simply isn't true. The ability of Preordain to move unwanted cards to the bottom and desired ones to the top makes it much better than Ponder in terms of sculpting your hand. For this reason, Preordain is also much better when one encounters a mix of desired and undesired cards on the top since without a shuffle effect, Ponder forces you to keep the bad cards. Granted many decks in Legacy play an abundance of shuffle effects, but in general its better to use the card that does not require a 2nd card to be good. The "extra card" one can gain with Ponder is marginal at best since one would very much not like to turn Ponder into "Shuffle your library, draw a card."

Kirika

07-13-2011, 07:49 PM

I run something similar but with the full 4 Stoneforges no Scullers slightly more land and a Sword of Body of Mind and 2 Jace 2.0 with fewer of some of the other cards. Will have to check my deck for exact numbers and post a list later. You really want the 4 Mystics to get you that equipment. Sword of Body and Mind is pretty awesome as it gets you past goyfs and makes a creature to block their goyf. It does suck versus reanimator. Jace is just too good not to run some.

kingsey

07-13-2011, 11:02 PM

I run something similar but with the full 4 Stoneforges no Scullers slightly more land and a Sword of Body of Mind and 2 Jace 2.0 with fewer of some of the other cards. Will have to check my deck for exact numbers and post a list later. You really want the 4 Mystics to get you that equipment. Sword of Body and Mind is pretty awesome as it gets you past goyfs and makes a creature to block their goyf. It does suck versus reanimator. Jace is just too good not to run some.

Very interested in your list.

bokwinkle

07-15-2011, 11:33 AM

if you're going to run 3 equipment in the board, 2 Aura of silence, and 2 Pithing needle, you should at least consider Enlightened Tutor as a 1 or 2 of in the board - or maybe a 1/1 split with tutor and Stoneforge. Running E-tutor also opens the sideboard to host of other sideboard options like Runed halo, Ghostly Prison, Phyrexian Revoker, Ethersworn Cannonist, etc. that will help shore up some other matchups.

Also, I'm not a huge fan of daze, but that's more of a personal preferance. I'd probably run a hard counter in it's place...or even mana leak. I know the whole "12 free counter" argument is pretty persuasive, but people are pretty used to playing around daze by now, and even if they don't, the tempo setback can be pretty devestating. If the deck's plan is to get to the late game and win with card advantage, then I would heavilly lean towards keeping your land on the board to make the deck more potent in the late game...and let's face it, daze becomes pretty poor in the lategame as well. Counterspell is generally one of the most underplayed cards in the format (IMHO) and it's easy enough for this deck to play since it's primarilly blue.

Lastly - I don't really understand the 8 ponder/brainstorms - I guess it's probably to keep your blue count up for force.... At some point this will get annoying (probably when you're forced to use an entire turn casting 3 of these spells and you're left with no mana to get your equipment into play) and you'll just want to be drawing threats. I think 6 would be plenty, and you shouldn't have any issue finding a couple of bears that generate card advantage to replace them - even running another stoneforge and another equipment would make sense.

Just my $0.02

GGoober

07-15-2011, 01:48 PM

4 SFM. The card is sometimes scarier than a resolved Bob. I play against UWb Stoneblade a lot (4 Bobs, 4 SFM, 1-3 Cliques) and Bob is really the least of my worries. You can deal with Bob with removal AND countermagic, but you can only deal with SFM with countermagic.

The great thing about SFM is: Once you fetch up an equipment, it's already an uphill battle for your opponents since every dude you play now is a dude with a bigger body/ability.

MSC

07-15-2011, 02:11 PM

Hmm, I played Fish a long time and I see some problems/weaknessness with your list. This is of course only my oppinion, but maybe you should think about it.

Manabase
With so few cards costing 3 or more and 8 cantrips, you could think about running only 17lands.
If you play with 18 lands this is quite fine. But the you should play at least 4 Basics and think about Back to Basics, as ist is still a great card!
You should also think about running Karkas. I know you have no way to search it, but it is an out against troubeling permanents and works nice with Clique...

Spells
I would not run 4 Daze, as they quickly loose power and you're far from fast enough, to finish your opponent in time. I found 2 to be a good number to suprise people. Good players tend to play around them anyway if they seen them before and not having them in this situation is nice...
This would be the perfect place to play 2 Maindeck Vindicate, which you really need to address permantens, you don't want to see (Planeswalker, Maze, Recursion-Lands)

Second, I would think about Jitte. Its a great card, but it's hard to charge it, without loosing some of your few creatures. I would play SoFI or SoBM based on Metagame.

Sideboard
I don't see the need for 3 Equipments Sideboard. At most 1 addintional should be played. This is the right slot for Jitte, as you can board it as removal against another Jitte.
In free slots I would play Meddling Mage, as he flexible addresses difficult Matchups and is another body.
I see there is no graveyard-hate. Do you not expect Dredge or Loam?

Grollub

07-15-2011, 02:27 PM

How has the 8 cantrip package been working out? At the moment the deck is currently nothing but 4-ofs, Cliques/Mystics (Mystics which I believe should be a 4-of too), the "simple" nature of the deck to me does not look like it benefits a great deal from the additional Ponders.

Have you tried Sensei's Divining Top? Considering the low curve on your mainphase spells, and every single other card is reactive, I'd imagine finding the excess mana to power it shouldn't be too hard.

Hanni

07-15-2011, 05:09 PM

Sorry I haven't responded in a few days.

@ Ponder vs Preordain

I used to play Serum Visions, so I know how good Scry can be. I really don't think picking one over the other will make that big of an impact overall. Each has their pros, so I'd think that either one would work just fine. Significant playtesting may prove one to be better over the other, but I haven't logged enough playtesting for that yet.

@ 4 SFM

You guys are probably right. That list is only a starting list. It's fine-tuned in the sense that it's working off of my old UWb Fish shell, which I put countless hours of time and playtesting into. It's not fine-tuned in the sense that I haven't done significant testing with the new additions. My intitial thoughts are to cut 1 Clique and 1 Ponder for 2 more SFM, which is probably the right call.

@ Hymn

Hymn is a great card, but this deck really wants to be playing creatures with 2 mana, not sorcery speed discard. That's why the free countermagic is so great; this deck can curve out casting it's critters early and not worry about whether or not it can cast its disruption/protection.

@ Daze

Daze most certainly is good in this deck, regardless if I want to get to the midgame or not. This deck runs off of a low curve, where bouncing a land back to hand doesn't matter that much, but it's mana hungry in the sense that it wants to be tapping out to cast its 2cc creatures. Daze is essential for making it to the midgame, where the rest of the decks card advantage takes over. The deck could care less if Daze becomes worthless by midgame, because it has numerous ways to cantrip Daze away, pitch it to FoW, or simply just draw a ton of excess cards to negate having a dead one in hand.

Basically what I'm saying is, Daze helps us get to the midgame where the deck begins to gain dominance over the gamestate. Without tools like Daze, we'd be too far behind by the midgame to make a comeback against alot of decks. The fact that Daze loses value by midgame is irrelevant because the rest of the deck is absolutely amazing in the midgame.

@ Vial

Vial is horrible in a deck with 16 creatures. Vial is fantastic in decks with larger creature counts, but this deck simply has too many other spells that Vial just doesn't help to cast. I've tried it in the past in UWb Fish and it was awful. I'm a huge fan of Vial, but this just isn't the deck for it.

@ Sculler

Sculler is my favorite creature in the deck after Bob. He's a Thoughtseize on legs, which also happens to Exile said card. Between the 12 free countermagic and 4 Sculler, I'm able to pick my opponents gameplan apart sufficiently enough during the early game that they cannot get much going. The additional level of disruption that Sculler provides is such a house in this deck, and I recommend people at least playtest with him before deciding to cut him for other things.

@ Jace TMS

Haven't had a chance to playtest with him yet, but I really question how useful he would be in this deck. I know how OMGZOR powerful Jace is, trust me, I play alot of control decks with Jace. The gameplan with this deck is alot different though, and I'm not sure that Jace TMS is necessary. With Batterskull and Force of Will already (and no Top's), fitting in Jace TMS is really risky.

@ E Tutor

While I definitely agree that an E Tutor board could be really useful for us, seeing as how we can mitigate the card disadvantage very easily, I'm not sure what artifacts/enchantments I'd really want to tutor for. E Tutor'ing for equipment is obviously unecessary, since we run SFM. E Cannonist is unecessary because we already bone combo. A 1-of E Plague does sound very attractive though, and I'm sure there are some other worthwhile artifacts/enchantments that I could grab for certain matchups, like Serenity vs Affinity. I will definitely keep the E Tutor sideboard idea in mind.

@ 8 cantrips

I've been running 8 cantrips in UWb Fish since 2006, and they've always been good for me. I think the problem many people may have with them is the playskill required to use them properly. Cantrips aren't mean to be used immediately at the beginning of the game every game. This deck has other things to be doing early game and only needs the cantrips if it needs to dig for land or specific answers. Otherwise, the cantrips should be saved until midgame, where they enable the deck to start drawing better quality spells than the opponent. This deck runs alot of 2cc creatures; casting cantrips once hitting 3 lands is the perfect opportunity to use them (drop 2cc creature, cast cantrip). However, going down to 6 may be the right call, as many things have changed since 2006. For right now, I'm going to experiment with cutting 1 Clique and 1 Ponder for 2 more SFM and see how that goes.

@ Manabase

I'm very happy with my manabase right now.

@ Top

I fear Top would be incredibly slow in this deck. Not because Top itself is incredibly slow, but because this deck really cannot afford to spend an extra 1 mana every turn to first cast it and then spin it. The cantrips work much better because they cost alot less tempo. The deck is very mana hungry during the early game, and the card advantage makes the deck fairly mana hungry in the midgame, too.

I realize that Daze can also slow the decks mana production down some too, but it's at the expense of countering the opponent's spell for free, which actually accelerates the deck more than it slows it down. Top, on the other hand, slows the deck down without actually affecting the gamestate/board position, and is primarily why I feel it would be too clunky for this deck. However, there's always the possibility that I'm wrong; this is based on my previous experience with UWb Fish, and alot has changed since then.

For the record, I'll edit my opening post decklist to include 4 SFM, since everyone who's clamoring for 4 is probably right.

theross

07-15-2011, 05:47 PM

Sorry I haven't responded in a few days.

@ Ponder vs Preordain

I used to play Serum Visions, so I know how good Scry can be. I really don't think picking one over the other will make that big of an impact overall. Each has their pros, so I'd think that either one would work just fine. Significant playtesting may prove one to be better over the other, but I haven't logged enough playtesting for that yet.

At the risk of sounding too belligerent, arguments like these are lazy and don't accomplish much. It's not productive to simply say that cards have their pros and cons when one can weight these pros and cons against each other to come up with an informed decision. It's possible to come up with a situation where Visions of Beyond is better than Ancestral Recall (say your only out is also the only card in your library and you have no graveyard) but it's obvious which one is a better card. I'm not saying that the decision between Ponder and Preordain is as easy in this case, but as far as I can tell, the only arguments for Ponder are the mythical extra card you get to see and its synergy with shuffle effects. In this case it's important to note that with a shuffle effect, Ponder only becomes better than Preordain when the 3rd card is undesirable, since you are able to get rid of it, but in all other cases Preordain is still better since the undesirable cards are on the bottom of your library instead of shuffled in. This difference is of course quite marginal but its important to note that even in the best case scenario, Ponder isn't noticeably better than Preordain. Given the marginal value of the 4th card with Ponder hitting when you are searching for a specific out, I would argue it's rather plain to see that the Pros of Preordain outweigh those of Ponder. Options such as these may seem trivial but if the point is to create the best possible list, one should strive to make the correct choice.

Hanni

07-15-2011, 05:56 PM

Okay, but what happens when you crack a fetchland after you cast Preordain?

Like I said, the differences between the two are extremely subtle, and determining the better one is far more difficult than the differences between Visions of Beyond and Ancestral Recall. I mean, we're talking about extremely minor differences here. Ponder lets you see the top 3 and take the best one; if you Scry 2 with Preordain, it's quite possible that the card you draw ends up being worse than the 2 cards you put to bottom. This deck does in fact run shuffle effects, which both improves Ponder, and negates the effect of Scry. So when I say that both have pros and cons, and that the differences are likely irrelevant, I'm not trying to "be lazy" and dodge the issue.

Again, the only way I'd be able to accurately determine which cantrip is the better cantrip for this deck, would be to do extensive playtesting with both. I don't have that kind of time, sorry. You're more than welcome to put the work in, if the issue is that important to you, and post your results. I know I'd be interested to see your results, and I'm sure others would as well. Hypothetical discussions vs the two just isn't doing it for me.

Basically just smashing SFM into Team America, which improves the aggro matchup quite well. TA has little to no problems against most forms of control or combo. You of course fold to a resolved Blood Moon or similar, but that is the price you pay for playing a three color tempo deck. Stifle and Thoughtseize (in the SB) is a house against other SFM decks, and just good in general right now. Perish also deals with Bant, Maverick, and NO-RUG, which were pretty difficult for the UW Stoneforge decks to deal with.

What do you all think? I know it looks clunky at first glance, but it's been testing fantastically for me so far.

theross

07-16-2011, 08:03 AM

Okay, but what happens when you crack a fetchland after you cast Preordain?

Like I said, the differences between the two are extremely subtle, and determining the better one is far more difficult than the differences between Visions of Beyond and Ancestral Recall. I mean, we're talking about extremely minor differences here. Ponder lets you see the top 3 and take the best one; if you Scry 2 with Preordain, it's quite possible that the card you draw ends up being worse than the 2 cards you put to bottom. This deck does in fact run shuffle effects, which both improves Ponder, and negates the effect of Scry. So when I say that both have pros and cons, and that the differences are likely irrelevant, I'm not trying to "be lazy" and dodge the issue.

Again, the only way I'd be able to accurately determine which cantrip is the better cantrip for this deck, would be to do extensive playtesting with both. I don't have that kind of time, sorry. You're more than welcome to put the work in, if the issue is that important to you, and post your results. I know I'd be interested to see your results, and I'm sure others would as well. Hypothetical discussions vs the two just isn't doing it for me.

Part of my point was that with a shuffle effect, Ponder and Preordain are effectively the same, but without one Preordain is significantly better. With an immediate shuffle effect Ponder has a slight edge since you get to see the third card but as I noted earlier, this advantage is small. However, without one, Ponder is much better since it clears the chaff from the top of one's library. We can make a more thorough analysis by breaking it into 4 cases based on how many of the top 3 cards are desirable. As this number increases, Ponder's value increases relative to that of Preordain since the extra information becomes more valuable than moving cards to the bottom. However, one is advantaged already in these situations since overall card quality is also increasing. It is when the top cards are undesirable that one must gain value out of cheap card selection or risk falling behind, and once again it is these situations where Preordain is much more valuable. Thus we can see that Preordain is not only more valuable relative to Ponder in the situations where it is good (as opposed to the relative value of Ponder to Preordain in the situations where Ponder is the superior card) but that these are the situations when it is important for the cheap cantrip to have value. The differences may be subtle but they can still be analyzed theoretically with some careful thought.

Hanni

07-16-2011, 08:13 AM

I prefer seeing the 3rd card, since it gives me more information. Then, if all 3 cards are junk, I can shuffle the library and draw a random card. The random card may also be junk, but if I had cast Predordain, I'd still have gotten junk anyway. The fact that Preordain put the cards to bottom rather than shuffling them back in is largely irrelevant, since the % are minute in regards to an increase of seeing my other spells instead (especially with so many multiples of everything), and is reset completely after I crack a fetchland.

Theoreticals aren't going to convince me why Preordain is better. Ponder has served me very well, and I've become very good at using it. There's no harm whatsoever in running Preordain either, for those who would prefer it. Again, the differences are so minor that a theoretical argument is almost like arguing semantics.

theross

07-16-2011, 07:05 PM

Obviously Ponder is better when all three cards are blanks, but it's important to consider the other 7 scenarios.

1 2 3
Blank Good Good = Preordain
Blank Blank Good = Preordain
Blank Good Blank = Preordain
Good Blank Blank = Preordain
Good Good Blank = Ponder
Good Blank Good = Preordain
Good Good Good = Ponder

These evaluations change when a fetch land is used but careful play can be used even with Preordain to obtain the desirable cards which is the primary reason playing the card whose value is largely independent of having another card.

Given that you say you don't have the time to test each thoroughly, I would hope you rely on theoretical arguments to make the best decision rather than simply dismiss them is inadequate. You in fact rely on one to stay with Ponder when you state that the differences are small enough to not matter. The fact that Ponder has been good for you is irrelevant, as it does not speak to the value of Preordain relative to Ponder. Card choices such as these are simply not a matter of preference. One must be optimal in a given deck.

Ursus

07-17-2011, 05:57 AM

You forget about sfm and Dark Confidant. Ponder becomes better compared to preordain with those two cards. Your examples are also too simplified. Sometimes your cards are more like Blank Semi-Good Blank and then ponder becomes much better than preordain. If the game will end in two turns, then ponder is also better than preordain, and sometimes the order of the two good cards is important and then again ponder becomes better.

In a deck like this with 12 shuffle effects and Dark Confidant I will play ponder.

Does anyone have a good idea of how to beat landstill with this deck? I have played around 6 matches and lost everyone of them and the games wasn't even close. I have 2 Needles, 1 Revoker and 3 Spell Pierce in my sideboard. I removed the 4 dazes from the maindeck to play the 3rd and 4th sfm and an extra equipment and a land. I know daze is good against them, but are they good enough to make this matchup winnable?
My problem with daze is that you cant really afford to play it before turn two and then the good players will be able to play around it if they know you have it in your deck.

Hanni

07-17-2011, 10:27 AM

You forget about sfm and Dark Confidant. Ponder becomes better compared to preordain with those two cards. Your examples are also too simplified. Sometimes your cards are more like Blank Semi-Good Blank and then ponder becomes much better than preordain. If the game will end in two turns, then ponder is also better than preordain, and sometimes the order of the two good cards is important and then again ponder becomes better.

In a deck like this with 12 shuffle effects and Dark Confidant I will play ponder.

I'm going to have to agree here. 12 shuffle effects is more than enough now that I'm only playing 3 Ponder, and Ponder is alot better at reducing lifeloss with an active Dark Confidant, which can be incredibly important in some games. Ponder also potentially digs 1 card deeper, when you absolutely have to find a specific out to a situation immediately. Overall, I'm going to stick with Ponder for now. However, like I said, for those who choose to play Preordain over Ponder, the differences are extremely minor, so go for it.

Does anyone have a good idea of how to beat landstill with this deck? I have played around 6 matches and lost everyone of them and the games wasn't even close. I have 2 Needles, 1 Revoker and 3 Spell Pierce in my sideboard. I removed the 4 dazes from the maindeck to play the 3rd and 4th sfm and an extra equipment and a land. I know daze is good against them, but are they good enough to make this matchup winnable?

My problem with daze is that you cant really afford to play it before turn two and then the good players will be able to play around it if they know you have it in your deck.

Well, first of all, it depends on your build, as well as the build of Landstill. Are we talking U/W/x Landstill, or U/B/g/x Landstill? I cannot really give direct answers without knowing this information.

Secondly, while Landstill isn't an easy matchup, it should still be winnable.

With the build I posted, the key is in dominating the stack in the early game, resolving and protecting a few creatures. Mother of Runes can shut off their spot removal, and if you can keep Dark Confidant on the board for a few turns, it's not impossible to overwhelm them with card advantage early. Mental Misstep is fantastic at countering Swords to Plowshares/Innocent Blood (build depending), Spell Snare, and opposing Mental Missteps. They run alot of more expensive spells, and so Daze is actually really good in this matchup. Tidehollow Sculler is absolutely fantastic, and Batterskull can be very difficult for them to handle.

Postboard, we have a wide assortment of tools against them. Spell Pierce is obviously very good in this matchup, as is Pithing Needle. Needle on Deed/EE shuts of their sweeper (again, build depending), which leaves them with spot removal. Mother of Runes + Pithing Needle is a really strong soft-lock. Vindicate and Aura of Silence are also a possible sideboard options, depending on their build.

To really go into any more detail than this, I would need to know what your list looks like, and what type of Landstill you're talking about. In addition to knowing whether you're talking about U/W/x or U/B/g/x, it would also help to tell me what sort of spells you're seeing from the deck, since there are various different ways to build either of those Landstill decks, which also affects play decisions (like for example, is U/W/x running EE, WoG, Shackles, etc... and is U/B/g/x running Innocent Bloods or Ghastly Demise and Go for the Throat, etc...).

Ursus

07-17-2011, 11:16 AM

My list is similar to yours except -4 Daze, +1 SoFF, +1 Clique, +1 Ponder, +1 land. I think about playing a couple of dazes, but I will not run less than 4 Ponder.

The landstill list people play in my meta is close to the list LSV and PV played at Providence

I don’t like MoR that much because she does not put a pressure on my opponent alone and they just play innocent blood, edict or deed and kill her if she is able to stay for a turn. Maybe I am wrong with this, but when they only have 3 removal spells that target my creatures along with jace, then I don’t think she is good enough in game 2 and 3.

Hanni

07-17-2011, 11:32 AM

That list has 2 Edict-effects and 3 spot removal spells. If you stick a Pithing Needle on Deed, they literally only have two spells in their deck that they can use to remove your creatures if you have an active Mother of Runes, which sounds like a good deal to me.

However, they are probably bringing in that additional removal in the sideboard. Not a big deal though, the gameplan doesn't change much. If you can stick a Pithing Needle against that deck, you should be able to win the matchup pretty easily.

I'd also highly recommend running Daze maindeck. Even without Needle, all of their removal is pretty slow. You should be able to get a threat or two to stick initially, and since all of the creatures we run provide card advantage, you should be able to get ahead early. Tempo is key to winning this matchup. If you can keep a Dark Confidant around for even just a few turns, it should put you far enough to close the game out. Again, Spell Pierce postboard is also really good.

theross

07-17-2011, 07:08 PM

I'm quite aware of Mystic and Bob, I just didn't find them relevant. A deck with an average CMC of 1.3 (using the list at the beginning of the thread), Batterskull, and Jitte should not need the 3rd card off Ponder to save life. Also, any situation where one would Ponder into Stoneforge, you may simply cast Stoneforge first and then Preordain. It's also important to note that Preordain is much better on turn 1.

@Ursus: I disagree with your contention that my evaluations were overly simplistic. One may classify any card as a "blank" or "non-blank" by answering the question, "Do I want to draw this card?"

Ultimately it is very difficult to quantify the minor differences between the two cards, and quite easy to contrive situations in which one is better than the other. Since this is clear, it seems to me to be better to run the abstractly better card, which is undoubtedly Preordain.

Ursus

07-18-2011, 06:04 AM

I'm quite aware of Mystic and Bob, I just didn't find them relevant. A deck with an average CMC of 1.3 (using the list at the beginning of the thread), Batterskull, and Jitte should not need the 3rd card off Ponder to save life. Also, any situation where one would Ponder into Stoneforge, you may simply cast Stoneforge first and then Preordain. It's also important to note that Preordain is much better on turn 1.

The deck plays 5 cards with cmc 5. I can insure you that there can be situations were the card you want to flip is a land. Even if you do not need any more lands in play.
Sfm can also be one of the top three cards of your library. Then you play your cantrip before sfm and ponder will be better than preordain.

If i play my cantrip on turn one it is properly because I need a land or have too many in my hand. In the first situation ponder lets me see one more card and in the second situation one of my lands in hand is properly a fetchland. In both situation ponder is better.

I disagree with your contention that my evaluations were overly simplistic. One may classify any card as a "blank" or "non-blank" by answering the question, "Do I want to draw this card?"

It looks like we have different views of how to get most out of our cantrips. I don't think we will come to an agreement of this one. It is possible that preordain works better for you, but my problem with your question is that there are some cards which are better for you than others and the way you compare the cantrips does not take care of that. It is possible that StP would be a nice draw because it takes care of the opponents tarmogoyf, but a sfm will take care of that too along with the next goyf he could play and even put him on a clock before he drops a Natural Order.

@Hanni-> What would you board out against landstill then? We both have 6 cards we want to bring in against them (spell pierce and needle effects). We can board out a couple of StP, but Mishra's Factory is bigger than all our creatures when they do not carry an equipment (only Clique have evasion) so I properly want 1 or 2 to get rid of the factories.

It plays like the first Team America decks disrupting almost eyerything, the diference is white replacing green (stoneforge crushes goyf).

Strange Cards:

The single island and blue elemental blast are there for The Patriot magus/blood moon and also helps against lavamancer.

The 4 extirpate are there for jacestill matchup, if my disruption package is countered/ineffective (it happens) they crush me with wasteland/loam lock, it also helps against dredge and combo decks in general.

Matchups:

The deck is built to deal with semi-mirrors, so matchups like team america, patriot, jacestill and other stoneforge/tarmogoyf deck variances this deck as an edge, it's very dificult to put the percentages because the matches are very skill intensive, but with the tests that i've done this deck can completely wreck their game plan, stifle, wasteland, hymn and daze are very strong against these kinda of decks.

Maverick, Zoo and NO decks are dificult but very far from winnable, especially after sideboard with Perish dealing with almost everything (knight, qasaly and progenitus), choke was never a problem even if hits play, the deck as such a low curve that you can continue playing the cards, daze also helps by bouncing something.

The main problem that i'm having is against merfolks, if batterskul comes out i usually win, but this almost never happen, maybe i'm playing bad, what do you recomend to do?

An update from the last time i posted, i tested last week against Junk and NO Bant, 15 games with 3 rounds for sb testing (15 games each), against bant i only lost 1 game, against junk i lost 4 games.

The bitterblossom are underperforming, they only shine in jacestill matchup, i believe i should change them into something more strong against merfolks, what do you recomend?

Thank you

rupus

07-18-2011, 06:56 AM

Tombstalker seems weak vs Merfolk with most lists running 3-4 dismember in their 75. Vs fish save you counters to protect/force through batterskull and mystic because they will win all day every day. Consider playing smother. Try to keep lord of atlantis off the board. Maybe play engineered explosives and possibly even academy ruins. They have trouble dealing with CA so bob and Jace really do work. Stifling wastes tends to be the best use of your stifles but hitting their vials upkeep trigger can be a huge tempo swing especially if you hit the one going from 1 to 2. Try something like cutting stalkers for bobs and hymns for the 4th, 2 jaces, and maybe an EE. Hymn is pretty weak right now anyways and one of the major reasons why team America is doing poorly.

wcm8

07-18-2011, 08:28 AM

Pingu, my list at the top of this this page is verrry similar to yours. I would probably cut the swords of x and y from the list, because you have such a low threat density that they will rarely be as useful as just fetching a batterskull.

For Merfolk you cut the fow and maybe a Stifle or two to bring in the explosives and O ring. (I'm also running 4 stp main). This is typically enough removal to hold them off until you can establish a batterskull for the win.

kingsey

07-18-2011, 09:25 AM

Would it be unreasonable to cut the fetches down from ten to eight and put in 2 jace?

Pingu

07-18-2011, 10:25 AM

Thank you all for your suggestions,

Rupus
When i start playing this deck i started with a slower version very similiar to Blade Control in DTB, i really did not like it, i'm not saying that is bad but i prefer this kind of deck, always disrupting an oponent from everywhere (lands, hand and counters/removal) and dropping a fast/strong kill condition, so almost all of your suggestions goes against this. I also strongly believe that team america is doing poorly but not because of hymn being bad right now is because goyf is outclassed by stoneforge. As i said in my post before, bitterblossom is underperforming so i'll change it for smother or edict (its nice to catch progenitus or emrakul), wich do you think its better?

wcm8
The sword is making wonders for me, in my metagame there's lots of zoo, bant and junk and this sword equiped in a batterskull is to sick to let it pass, sometimes batterskull its not big enough and its overrun by kotr o even a goyf that sticks the table. For the merfolks match, as i said before i'll exchange the bitterblossom for smother/edict (wich do you prefer?) having post sideboard 7 spot removal and hoping that will be enough.

Thank you again

from Cairo

07-18-2011, 09:22 PM

'Final Fantasy' (via FFVI Espers) by me:

/list

What do you all think? I know it looks clunky at first glance, but it's been testing fantastically for me so far.

Tried this list at a local -1 Scrub, -1 StP, -1 Ponder; +2 Clique, +1 Swamp. Going 0-2 drop, got beat out by Team America and Death and Taxes. TA I guess is more or less mirror match, some of that may have been being outplayed, I think my opponent's list was better tuned than mine perhaps as well (miser Spell Snare, Sylvan Library, sb Misdirections all served well in the match). For the DnT match up Phyrexian Revoker on SFM and lots of basics are hard to disrupt/get ahead of.

I felt like I wanted Spell Snare in the deck someplace. Daze is rough with the SFM package because you don't want to be setting your mana back really. Clique ended up being awful, so I'd probably start by dropping the two of those and a Daze for StP #4 again and 2x Spell Snare

wcm8

07-18-2011, 09:48 PM

Sorry to hear the deck didn't work out for you. Tempo mirrors are very dependent on skill, draws, and to some extent luck (who goes first, who gets more stifle/wastelands, who lands the first uncontested threat...) A lot of it isn't completely in your control, and FWIW traditional TA is probably ever so slightly better in the 'mirror'..

DnT isn't that surprising of a loss, as midrange disruptive decks like it or Rock can be pretty difficult for tempo strategies.

I hope this experience isn't too discouraging for you, I think the deck has potential, and some tweaks may be necessary. Snare isn't a bad idea given the current meta revolving a lot around 2-drops right now. Perhaps the SB especially could use some rearranging. In any case, I intend on bringing the list with me to the weekly local, and also maybe giving it a go at the SCG open at the end of the month.

from Cairo

07-18-2011, 11:39 PM

Oh yea didn't mean to conclude it was a bad list. Just that it didn't work for the couple match ups I faced. I used the following for a SB:

Rupus
When i start playing this deck i started with a slower version very similiar to Blade Control in DTB, i really did not like it, i'm not saying that is bad but i prefer this kind of deck, always disrupting an oponent from everywhere (lands, hand and counters/removal) and dropping a fast/strong kill condition, so almost all of your suggestions goes against this. I also strongly believe that team america is doing poorly but not because of hymn being bad right now is because goyf is outclassed by stoneforge. As i said in my post before, bitterblossom is underperforming so i'll change it for smother or edict (its nice to catch progenitus or emrakul), wich do you think its better?

wcm8
The sword is making wonders for me, in my metagame there's lots of zoo, bant and junk and this sword equiped in a batterskull is to sick to let it pass, sometimes batterskull its not big enough and its overrun by kotr o even a goyf that sticks the table. For the merfolks match, as i said before i'll exchange the bitterblossom for smother/edict (wich do you prefer?) having post sideboard 7 spot removal and hoping that will be enough.

Thank you again

The reason I think hymn is bad in thus meta is because the slower control decks are all packing enough CA that it tends to be mitigated before you can win. I still think bob and/or Jace is something to seriously consider, even most team America lists have moved towards including one or both. Smother vs edict is a tough call because they do very different things but I would lean towards smother. I prefer using metamorph (or maybe even that new illusion) to combat progenitus, emrakul, and friends. Another idea to consider is sinkhole over hymn. Once upon a team nitewolf (the guy who made TA) argued vehemently that it was better than hymn because it fit with the mana disruption of waste/stifle better. One more thing to consider is throwing an armageddon or 2 in there for a 4 mana I win card. I played it as a 2 of in UW tempo before and never lost to a control deck after resolving one. It's probably too cute here but something to think about nonetheless.

I think playing snare over daze might be a good call. Daze works so well with TA because they can play a goyf off 2 lands then daze without any problem whereas mystic and equipment can become pretty mana intensive. Not to mention even if you play a misers daze they are forced to play around it. You could even mind game people and "accidentally" flip it over before the match.

Blank Good Good = Preordain
Blank Blank Good = Preordain
Blank Good Blank = Preordain
Good Blank Blank = Preordain
Good Good Blank = Ponder
Good Blank Good = Preordain
Good Good Good = Ponder

Now with a shuffle:
Blank Good Good = Even
Blank Blank Good = Ponder
Blank Good Blank = Ponder
Good Blank Blank = Ponder
Good Good Blank = Ponder
Good Blank Good = Even
Good Good Good = Ponder

It's worth noting that the even ones aren't perfectly even because they both have benefits and disadvantages but I think they end up about even. Ponder give you more information but there's the potential that the chaff gets shuffled to the top again. Preordain removes the chaff but give you less info. Plus as soon as you shuffle that benefit is gone. Overall though I think personal preference is really the biggest deciding factor.

honz

07-19-2011, 05:22 PM

Im interested in what a build including thopter foundry would look like, perhaps someone could point me towards a list.

Pingu

07-20-2011, 05:18 AM

Im interested in what a build including thopter foundry would look like, perhaps someone could point me towards a list.

Maybe i'm wrong but i think that you use Stoneforge or Thopter Foundry, the two in the same deck seems awkward, they kinda do the same thing, nevertheless i thought about a list, i never tested it out, its a mix between my older Counterbalance and my current UWB Blade.

This is my current list and I still need to fine tune it. Let me know what you guy's think, it's very similar to wcm and pingu's. Except it runs one plains over the marsh flats; bobs over tombstalkers and i squeezed in 3 vindicates some how (it's very important to have permanent removal, I got owned by back to basics, and Manriki-Gusari). Yes I know I run 61 cards, however that is how I have always played, so no need to give me the whole 60 card decks are superior debate.

I really like this deck plays and how it is just filled with threats. I am wondering about the bitterblossom and jittes in the side, I haven't managed to play it yet. However I haven't played tested it much at all.

What do you guys think of O-Rings vs vindicates? It isn't as good, however O-Rings can save you when people show and tell an emrakul or a hive mind (first two relevant things off the top of my head) and usually those decks can't deal with enchantments anyways.

This is my current list and I still need to fine tune it. Let me know what you guy's think, it's very similar to wcm and pingu's. Except it runs one plains over the marsh flats; bobs over tombstalkers and i squeezed in 3 vindicates some how (it's very important to have permanent removal, I got owned by back to basics, and Manriki-Gusari). Yes I know I run 61 cards, however that is how I have always played, so no need to give me the whole 60 card decks are superior debate.

I really like this deck plays and how it is just filled with threats. I am wondering about the bitterblossom and jittes in the side, I haven't managed to play it yet. However I haven't played tested it much at all.

What do you guys think of O-Rings vs vindicates? It isn't as good, however O-Rings can save you when people show and tell an emrakul or a hive mind (first two relevant things off the top of my head) and usually those decks can't deal with enchantments anyways.

Feedback would be appreciated. Thanks guys.

First off let me say I think it is hilarious that manriki-gusari is a real sideboard card. Anyways, I've never played this deck vs show and tell decks but with team America I never found show and tell deck to be a problem. 90% of the time vindicate is going to be better. A lot of people don't like bitterblossom but I am a fan because it needs to be answered very quickly or you will win. The problem is that it could suffer splash hate from you equipment (k grip, natures claim, etc) actually that's another reason why vindicate is better than o ring.

uprite

07-21-2011, 08:35 PM

Yeah good point on the sideboard hate. I am currently running vindicate over o ring.

Top 8 of the Jupiter Game 3k this weekend. Only loss in the swiss was to Dredge. Lost in top 8 to a bant deck. I'll drop a report sometime later this week.

bokwinkle

07-25-2011, 12:02 PM

Round 1 Vs Reanimator:

My T1 discard doesn't get there, his deck is simply to redundant and he topdecks into a replacement for what I picked away. By turn 3 I'm facing down a Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur and I've got a vindicate, but that's simply not good enough to beat him drawing 7 cards.

I decided that I needed to be the control deck and I figured he'd blindly side into Show and Tell (like so many reanimator pilots do) so I thought my Metamorphs would probaby get there. The next 2 games I proceeded to hit all of my hate and Metamorph off of Show and Tell landed at least twice...maybe even 3 times.

2-1 in games
1-0 in Rounds

Round 2 against Merfolk:

Game 1 I hit my early discard and my removal spells, lined up my card advantage and won through equipment - it was just like goldfishing, everything worked perfectly and I was never disrupted...he simply didn't see his countermagic.

The second game wasn't really fair. After mulling to 6, he hit Vial and FoW, meaning he was basically starting 3 cards down against a discard deck and I was running 7 1cmc removal spells. It was over before it started.

Games 4-1
Rounds 2-0

Round 3 Vs. Dredge:

I was in game 1 because I was on the play and took his turn 1 discard outlet, so he was slow to get rolling. I later missed that his bridges should have gone away after he blew up my batterskull with an ancient grudge - I'm not sure that would have won me the game, but it definately would have made it closer.

Game 2 I got my crypt out there and held him off for a while, but ultimately I simply didn't have enough hate, and most of the hate I did have ended up getting blown up by Woodfall Primus. Cabal therapy also wrecked me pretty hard. Just a bad matchup for me since my board was light on hate - but I dont' think I really had room for more hate, so I just needed to dodge this one...oh well.

Games 4-3
Rounds 2-1

Round 4 Vs ANT:

So I sit across from this 13 year old kid with Tezz on his sleeves...I figure I'm playing against affinity. We have a quick conversation about how we are both 2-1 as I win the dice roll. I hit a t1 discard spell and see: Grim Tutor, Burning Wish, LED, Gemstone Mine, City of Brass, and a couple of other cards. My head spins for a minute as I go through the logic of this 13 year old being 2-1 with ANT at a major event. Fortunately I had played against and beat Bryant Cook earlier in the week, so I knew I had a pretty good gameplan. Throughout the rest of game 1 my discard kept coming and I set up my Stoneforge into batterskull for a pretty easy win.

So, on the play, this kid empties his hand and blows up 12 goblins on his turn 3 (I didn't see early discard) - I only have Bob on the table. On my turn 3 I hit stoneforge off of Bob and proceed to get batterskull. I block 2 tokens on his turn 4 and go to 8. I play revoker (to chump) and put batterskull into play on his turn - block 2 guys, take 8 and gain 4 from batterskull. I draw stoneforge, play it, get SoFI - he scoops. Basically, I had very few outs against 12 tokens that early...but I hit one.

Games 6-3
Rounds 3-1

Round 4 vs. NO Bant/Show and Tell

This guy had maindeck show and tell and NO - I'm not completely shure about his list. Both times he tried to show and Tell (in 2 games) I had Metamorph in hand and just blew him out. I think his deck was pretty light on disruption to make room for all of the combo pieces. There isn't much to talk about with this matchup.

Games 8-3
Rounds 4-1

Round 5 vs. Blue Zoo

Game 1 he sees 3 non-land spells - when we ended the game he showed me a hand of 5 land. I win, but I only see a bunch of non-basic land and really don't know what he's playing. I think it's Blue zoo, but it didn't make sense for that deck to hit that much land. I did a minor sideboard - I think I swapped Vindicates and Metamorph for Perish - and take my chances in game 2.

Game 2 I see a T1 Kird Ape into Turn 2 Lavamancer. I have the removal for the Lavamancer, but my deck is too threat light for bolts and swords and and I have the wrong removal (perish) to deal with red dudes. Not much to say about this game. At one point it was 25-1 and he was going to scoop to me (I was at 1 lol) because I had board position with a batterskull, Finkle (tapped, to attack with), and a 2-counter Jitte on the board (he just had double tin-street hooligans). He drew a brainstorm into bolt and some other stuff and got there.

Game 3, I did an early E-tutor for Ghostly Prison and it was Extremely Irrellevent...lol. Fortunately I had a ton of removal for his threats and just got there. Finkle was awesome this game - there was a lot of shrugging and "I can't block him" going on.

Games: 9-4
Rounds: 5-1

Last round I draw in with another esperblade player...turns out he's the only guy that didn't want to split the top-8 prizes....Grrr... 5-1-1

First round of Top 8 I'm up against a guy that I see quite a bit (the only guy in the Top-8 that I know) and he's playing Bant (with no NO and no Batterskull). It's a neat list, very resilient, and he's a good player. I'm tired as hell and don't shuffle my deck properly, don't mulligan aggressively enough, and make a bunch of play mistakes - reporting on this would be a disservice to the deck (I saw about 20 lands in 2 games in a deck that has 21). Let's just say "I lost". lol.

Overall I was very happy with the deck. Wasteland was useless all day though...and I could have used another Tundra, and maybe another Delta. I need to re-examine a couple of sideboard spots and tune up some of the maindeck numbers, but generally I like where it's at. I definately prefer the discard to daze and FoW.

fallenphoenix

07-25-2011, 06:30 PM

I decided that I needed to be the control deck and I figured he'd blindly side into Show and Tell (like so many reanimator pilots do) so I thought my Metamorphs would probaby get there. The next 2 games I proceeded to hit all of my hate and Metamorph off of Show and Tell landed at least twice...maybe even 3 times.

Just to make this clear: Metamorph brought into play from SnT won't copy their SnT'ed creature. You need to play the Metamorph from your hand afterwards, or you have to copy sth that has been on the battlefield previously.
I find this to be a pretty common misconception.

Otherwise: 4 Shadowmages? I do like Finkel, but I feel like he's a little bit too slow?

bokwinkle

07-26-2011, 07:45 AM

see, that's interesting about show and tell, because that is what I thought initially - but some other people told me I was wrong and I decided to play it in the tourney, with the thought that i could at least cast the metamorph after SNT resolved. However, when I got into the tournement there was a judge call (head judge) that reversed that. I've done some research and everything I've found supports your information, but now that I've had a judge rule the otherway I want to look into it some more.

And yes, 4 Finkle. He was awesome all day. He's just as slow as SFM or bob once he's equiped. He's there for card advantage and a body to equip to, and he fills both of those rolls very nicely.

fallenphoenix

07-26-2011, 08:38 AM

However, when I got into the tournement there was a judge call (head judge) that reversed that.

It goes to show even judges can err.
Here's some backup so you don't have to rely on my sole judgement (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20637-Clone-and-Auras-v.s.-Show-and-Tell). ;)

And yes, 4 Finkle. He was awesome all day. He's just as slow as SFM or bob once he's equiped. He's there for card advantage and a body to equip to, and he fills both of those rolls very nicely.

I prefer my 3-drops to make a more imminent impression. I'm running a mix of Clique and Crusader for that part, leaning more and more towards the latter.
You might win the game after Finkel hits several times, but the same amount of hits from Crusader and theyare probably done for.
Crusader is also not as awful on defense as Finkel is (in fact, he is 'teh nutz' there, if I may say so).

How come nobody tryes 4 stalker+sfm with stifle/4 wasteland and 2 jaces?
It will be a team america but with good match up vs agro, burn, merfolks cuz of batterskull.And these decks are the only reason TA isnt played atm.

I was going to comment on this, but then you seemed to have thought better and deleted your post. Just stating that most of the cards you mentioned are really anti-synergistic.

bokwinkle

07-26-2011, 08:57 AM

The problem I have with crusader is that he can block fine, but but his protections offer no resiliency to any of the format removal. If I wanted protections on creatures I'd probably be more prone to use stillmoon Cavalier. I find that I have no issue controlling the board (4 maindeck swords, 3 sideboard paths+other) from creatures anyway so blocking is rarely required. Plus with up to 7 tutor effects, 4 equipment, and so much draw I rarely have difficulty finding a way to make my dudes big(er).

I do like the evasion, power, and ability of Clique (especially combined with discard), but I'm not going to try for double blue in my build.

fallenphoenix

07-26-2011, 09:23 AM

I can definitely see the point regarding the manacosts of Clique, I am running a W/U base with a black splash (Confidant, Thoughtseize) though, so that mostly works just fine. I could see Clique not making the cut if I decided to add some more black.

Regarding the protection issue: Bolt and StoP are killing Crusader as if it were good old Grizzly Bears, but for those issues you still have discard, Mental Misstep and, in my list, Mother of Runes.
Pro:Black is not irrelevant against black removal, but Pro:Green combined with doublestriking power really stops any Goyf- and/or Knight-decks. Crusader with Jitte kills in two swings and that is pretty easily assembled, considering you have a bunch of tutors for equipment. Also, unlike NO/Prog, none of the "combo"-parts are bad on their own.

I guess I just disagree. The problem I have with crusader is that he's good....with equipment...bitterblossom tokens are good with equipment. It's not the creature that's getting there, it's the equipment.

I still think that in a removal heavy deck Finkle gets the nod. Where Crusader can work his way through green creatures Finkle works his way through damn near all creatures. No chumps by stoneforge mystics, kird apes, lavamancers, etc...just swings for cards and damage. What I like about Finkle is that I don't have to get the (comparitively) slow Jitte - I can go get F&F or SoFI to make the game a blow out. Jitte, for me, really isn't how I finish a game - it's a control piece. Jitte deals with little creatures, gets me needed life, kills an enemy Jitte, or is used to get through a troublesome stalemate - it's rarely getting into the red zone - and I rarely need it because I have Batterskull for lilfe, Finkle for stalemates, and tons of removal for everything else. Jitte, for me, is a last ditch effort.

Ultimately it depends on how you look at your 3 drop. Personally, I don't think there aren't many non-green 3 drops out there than can really be considered true finishers right now (although Clique and Serendib Efreet are on the list of potentials) because of the prevelance of green in the meta....including Crusader. So if it's not a finisher then it's filling some other role - for me that role is card advantage. Generally, we are running 6-8 finishers anyway in the form of a stoneforge package so, unless you're looking for an alternate win-con, another finisher isn't really needed anyway. This is why I bring up Stillmoon - it's not a finisher (not by my standards anyway) but it's a very versatile creature that helps break stalemates and has greater resiliance than the other choices in the format. If I wasn't playing a 3-color deck, I would actually probably consider Stromgald Crusader over any of the cards we've been discussing.

All of that being said, if Zoo becomes a real issue then I'll probably push finkle away in favor of Serendib Efreet.

fallenphoenix

07-26-2011, 12:05 PM

Ultimately it depends on how you look at your 3 drop. Personally, I don't think there are many non-green 3 drops out there than can really be considered true finishers right now (although Clique and Serendib Efreet are on the list of potentials) because of the prevelance of green in the meta....including Crusader. So if it's not a finisher [...]

I consider Crusader to be a finisher, a huge roadblock and a breaker of stalemates, especially vs green decks. You already stated it, he is good with equipment, but unlike Bitterblossom, Squadron Hawk or Spellstutter Sprite he is a real threat all by himself against most decks.

With equipment and a reliable way to tutor for them you generally don't need as much guys from (3), but I generally find that once the equipment plan falls short, (due to your opponent being prepared, your deck not delivering etc...) it's not a bad idea to have some sort of backup.
Crusader has some insane synergy with your plan A but also packs a punch should all else fail and even holds the ground against multiple creatures most of the time.

What I like about Finkle is that I don't have to get the (comparitively) slow Jitte - I can go get F&F or SoFI to make the game a blow out.

What I like about Mirran Crusader is that I don't have to get the (comparitively) slow Jitte - I can go get F&F or SoFI to make the game a blow out. :)

Seriously, any of the most powerful equipments on a doublestriking creature can be considered 'good game' most of the time, more so than on any other creature.
Regarding SoFI on Crusader compared to Finkel: both draw you 2 cards but one of them deals 8+2+2, the other one 3+2 damage. Protection from 4 colours > protection from 2 colours, I'd say.
SoFF is a little worse on Crusader but I find that sword to be pretty bad anyway, It's mostly there for the Pro:Green part if you need that (and without Crusader you will).

I would actually probably consider Stromgald Crusader over any of the cards we've been discussing.

I might try Finkel instead of Clique during testing, but Mirran Crusader overperformed so much in fact, that I wouldn't consider running less than 3 in almost any given field.

/edit: That said, I am running a completely different deck than you, with less of a toolbox and more streamlined beatdown /w disruption, so playstyle may be an issue.

bokwinkle

07-26-2011, 01:10 PM

I consider Crusader to be a finisher, a huge roadblock and a breaker of stalemates, especially vs green decks. You already stated it, he is good with equipment, but unlike Bitterblossom, Squadron Hawk or Spellstutter Sprite he is a real threat all by himself against most decks.

With equipment and a reliable way to tutor for them you generally don't need as much guys from (3), but I generally find that once the equipment plan falls short, (due to your opponent being prepared, your deck not delivering etc...) it's not a bad idea to have some sort of backup.
Crusader has some insane synergy with your plan A but also packs a punch should all else fail and even holds the ground against multiple creatures most of the time.

I generally agree with all of that, but if I'm looking for a finisher, I just want something a bit more resilient to removal - that way I dont' have to run stuff like Mother of Runes. This is again why I'm pointing to stuff like Serendib Efreet and Stillmoon Cavalier - a little more resliency to the removal in the format.

What I like about Mirran Crusader is that I don't have to get the (comparitively) slow Jitte - I can go get F&F or SoFI to make the game a blow out. :)

Seriously, any of the most powerful equipments on a doublestriking creature can be considered 'good game' most of the time, more so than on any other creature.
Regarding SoFI on Crusader compared to Finkel: both draw you 2 cards but one of them deals 8+2+2, the other one 3+2 damage. Protection from 4 colours > protection from 2 colours, I'd say.
SoFF is a little worse on Crusader but I find that sword to be pretty bad anyway, It's mostly there for the Pro:Green part if you need that (and without Crusader you will).

Yes and no. The 4 protections don't include white. You may be able to break stalemates by getting around most creatures, but you're still prone to a swords off the top or a chump block by the ever-present stoneforge mystic.

Potentially, yes, depending on how things played out. But Pro-White is definately the most relevant of the protections here...and that is my point.

I might try Finkel instead of Clique during testing, but Mirran Crusader overperformed so much in fact, that I wouldn't consider running less than 3 in almost any given field.

/edit: That said, I am running a completely different deck than you, with less of a toolbox and more streamlined beatdown /w disruption, so playstyle may be an issue.

Well, mana's an issue too. Coming up with double white isn't something I'm ready to commit to - generally I think I get there, but I just haven't tried it to this point.

I think the deck differences are definately coming to play here a bit. I think you're leaving a few more threats on the field and playing through them...whereas I'm dealing with the threats and then cleaning up. I think this playstyle has a lot to do with discard vs countermagic. I like to drain people's hand, establish board control and ride the back of card advantage to a win. If I had to sit back with countermagic while trying to establish board control I'm not sure I'd be successful - despite the power level of the deck or how well it may be constructed...I'd probably counter a lot of stuff that I wouldn't need to and I'd end up getting blown out by something that I should have been saving a counter for.

fallenphoenix

07-29-2011, 06:42 PM

I got some testing in vs Zoo, Reanimator and SnT/NO.
My list for these games was the following:

The games vs Reanimator and and SnT/NO were pretty onesided and due to the nature of the matchup pretty short. The draws of my opponents seemed to be sub-par and just couldn't stand up to mine, this might just be the impression of a good matchup, but I think at least some of their draws could have been a little better.

Vs SnT/NO I went 4:0 and again, Jitte and Crusader went a long way, Crusader racing through Progenitus and Jitte killing a bush of Birds, Hierarchs and Dryad Arbors to prevent NO or enable Edict.

The games vs Zoo were the most interesting ones, of which we played a total of 7 or 8, 2 of which I lost.
One of these he was of for a fast start and I kept a prettz shaky hand that just could put up a reasonable resistance in time.
The other one I had the choice of playing a safer albeit slower rout of fatesealing him with Jace when I was on four life , or brainstorm which I ended up doing.
I brainstormed into Crusader, Mystic and a fetchland, which I cracked to play both of them and shmsh for the win next turn, but he (ofc) ripped the bolt like a champ (I new his hand was all blanks) :)

The other ones were often pretty much dominated by early Mother of Runes, protected by Daze and MMS, which then protected my business creatures until they generated enough advantage to take over the game.
Other games just played out like regular Jace-control-decks, removal into counter into removal and Jace on an empty board seals the deal.
He did have a number of answers to Jitte MD (own Jitte, Metamorph, Pridemages) so he wasn't just cold to it but it was still by far the best equipment and one of the best cards to see. And as you could've guessed, Mirran Crusader was just plain awesome against a deck full of green guys.

In 3 of all those games I actually got the "nut"-draw of turn 1 Mother, t2 Mystic (fetching Jitte), t3 Crusader and t4 sealing the game by attacking my hapless opponent with a Jitte-equipped Crusader, essentially sealing the game.
I guess there are draws that stop those shenanigans, but not very many as it's pretty resilient to many draws that just feature one or two removal spells, especially if you throw in one or two free counters.

Overall I'm pretty content with the list, I'd love to squeeze in a Clique and an additional Crusader for the Shadowmage and something else. 4th Mystic is also an option, but drawing one ist often enough and you don't always want one on t2 as much as you want Confidant.

Any comments and suggestions are very welcome.

SMR0079

07-30-2011, 02:25 AM

I got some testing in vs Zoo, Reanimator and SnT/NO.
My list for these games was the following:

The games vs Reanimator and and SnT/NO were pretty onesided and due to the nature of the matchup pretty short. The draws of my opponents seemed to be sub-par and just couldn't stand up to mine, this might just be the impression of a good matchup, but I think at least some of their draws could have been a little better.

Vs SnT/NO I went 4:0 and again, Jitte and Crusader went a long way, Crusader racing through Progenitus and Jitte killing a bush of Birds, Hierarchs and Dryad Arbors to prevent NO or enable Edict.

The games vs Zoo were the most interesting ones, of which we played a total of 7 or 8, 2 of which I lost.
One of these he was of for a fast start and I kept a prettz shaky hand that just could put up a reasonable resistance in time.
The other one I had the choice of playing a safer albeit slower rout of fatesealing him with Jace when I was on four life , or brainstorm which I ended up doing.
I brainstormed into Crusader, Mystic and a fetchland, which I cracked to play both of them and shmsh for the win next turn, but he (ofc) ripped the bolt like a champ (I new his hand was all blanks) :)

The other ones were often pretty much dominated by early Mother of Runes, protected by Daze and MMS, which then protected my business creatures until they generated enough advantage to take over the game.
Other games just played out like regular Jace-control-decks, removal into counter into removal and Jace on an empty board seals the deal.
He did have a number of answers to Jitte MD (own Jitte, Metamorph, Pridemages) so he wasn't just cold to it but it was still by far the best equipment and one of the best cards to see. And as you could've guessed, Mirran Crusader was just plain awesome against a deck full of green guys.

In 3 of all those games I actually got the "nut"-draw of turn 1 Mother, t2 Mystic (fetching Jitte), t3 Crusader and t4 sealing the game by attacking my hapless opponent with a Jitte-equipped Crusader, essentially sealing the game.
I guess there are draws that stop those shenanigans, but not very many as it's pretty resilient to many draws that just feature one or two removal spells, especially if you throw in one or two free counters.

Overall I'm pretty content with the list, I'd love to squeeze in a Clique and an additional Crusader for the Shadowmage and something else. 4th Mystic is also an option, but drawing one ist often enough and you don't always want one on t2 as much as you want Confidant.

Any comments and suggestions are very welcome.

Changes in bold - I left 2 slots open for your meta preference ( I would like 3 thoughtseizes myself), but this is what I would start with as an Esper shell. You want to max out on the most powerful cards that create advantage and disrupt your opponent as efficiently as possible - this means a heavier blue component.

Mom simply does not pull her weight in any deck that isn't more focused on beatdown such as GW maverick. Yes, she protects your creatures that do work, but so does your disruption except it isn't dependent on a threat to be viable. Crusader is just to narrow maindeck. I would rather have Perish and Submerge in my side board if I really wanted to hate - see the board below.

Oh, btw you can't play SFM without Batterskull.

The sideboard is what I would bring to an SCG open right now with Hive mind NO Rug, Merfolk, Zoo, and Stoneblade being the decks to beat.

Other considerations include Thoughtseize, Bitterblossom, Elsepth

fallenphoenix

07-30-2011, 04:27 AM

Needless to say that I disagree with most of the points you state/changes you made, but to each his own.

For example, splitting Swords/Edicts has been done for a good reason.
And while cutting FoW hurts a little, cutting the discard down to zero is just awful.

Oh, btw you can't play SFM without Batterskull.

Well, yes you can. In a more creature-centric deck Jitte#2 is just a lot better than Batterskull, imho.

Also, if you're running Mom you will often find that she is enough of a roadblock that you don't have the need for Batterskull, ever.

Crusader is just to narrow maindeck

Have you even tested the card? :)

Chikenbok

08-01-2011, 09:46 PM

What do people think about this list:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6538&iddeck=47359

In my testing it has been incredibly resilient and powerful. Stifle still kicks people in the face when they're not looking, and tombstalker simply ends games. I am firmly still under the belief that a turn 1 stifle followed by a turn 2 hymn usually ends a game. Especially with a daze backup. I understand that bob really is that good if he sticks around but.. so is a 5/5 flyer. I would possibly like to fit a jace or two into the deck but I can't manage to make room at this point for anything.

I've also considered attempting to add vindicates to the MD and swapping the sword in the list with a feast and famine - other than that, its simply crippling.

Chikenbok

08-01-2011, 09:46 PM

What do people think about this list:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6538&iddeck=47359

In my testing it has been incredibly resilient and powerful. Stifle still kicks people in the face when they're not looking, and tombstalker simply ends games. I am firmly still under the belief that a turn 1 stifle followed by a turn 2 hymn usually ends a game. Especially with a daze backup. I understand that bob really is that good if he sticks around but.. so is a 5/5 flyer. I would possibly like to fit a jace or two into the deck but I can't manage to make room at this point for anything.

I've also considered attempting to add vindicates to the MD and swapping the sword in the list with a feast and famine - other than that, its simply crippling.

SpeakingofJager

08-02-2011, 01:24 AM

I'm biased as the creator of the list, but that list did everything I wanted and more. I did a quick tournament report in the Team America thread, if you want me to repost it, I will. For now, here's a link (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?11605-Deck-Team-America/page75) Basically, the logic behind this deck was the Friday before the event i decided Team America with SFM and StP would just be too much fun. So I did it with no testing before the event, and it just dominated. I could of done better if i wasn't a noob with batterskull, but I'm still happy with the list

The only things Im considering tweaking MD is swapping the sword for a jitte or maybe body and mind and maybe sending a FoW to the board for a 5th MD removal (such as vindicate). As for my recent board tweaks, I've completely cut GY hate in favor of +1 perish +1 eplague and +4 spell pierce. Dredge and reanimator are managable without the hate, and id rather have help in tribal / GW maverick match ups.

Chikenbok

08-02-2011, 02:00 AM

I'm biased as the creator of the list, but that list did everything I wanted and more. I did a quick tournament report in the Team America thread, if you want me to repost it, I will. For now, here's a link (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?11605-Deck-Team-America/page75) Basically, the logic behind this deck was the Friday before the event i decided Team America with SFM and StP would just be too much fun. So I did it with no testing before the event, and it just dominated. I could of done better if i wasn't a noob with batterskull, but I'm still happy with the list

The only things Im considering tweaking MD is swapping the sword for a jitte or maybe body and mind and maybe sending a FoW to the board for a 5th MD removal (such as vindicate). As for my recent board tweaks, I've completely cut GY hate in favor of +1 perish +1 eplague and +4 spell pierce. Dredge and reanimator are managable without the hate, and id rather have help in tribal / GW maverick match ups.

Sweet, thanks brother.

On a note - the one thing I'm missing about green/TA is Pernicious Deed. I feel like the deck occasionally has trouble with large troops of critters (mainly regarding decks like GW/Junk/similar archetype packing 12-16 critters that all have utility) and could use a nice wipe effect.

I don't want to add any more removal as I've done that in my board to the effect of ghastly demises/edicts/etc - but I was thinking that maybe 1/2 MD EE's might do the trick. Possibly cut 1 ponder + X for em?

SpeakingofJager

08-02-2011, 02:32 AM

If you seriously want to find the next weakest card in the deck, id say its not ponder. Ponder 1 and 2 serve as your 5th and 6th brainstorm, and the extra gas can be important. I'm just snowballing ideas here, but if you were hellbent on finding room heres what i'd cut and in what order:

1) FoW number 4: I'd send it to the board. With MM, you'd still have 7 outs to that turn one vial, lackey or whatever else you're afraid of. The rest of the deck lends itself to beating combo and before their hate, a counter suite with 3 FoW, hymn and stifle should be able to get you there.

2) SFM number 4: I'd remove it completely, you're only ever going to realistically find 2 artifacts, number 3 acts as insurance incase someone stifles or counters the others, but you dont rely on this card. More often than not i find myself getting ther with stalker beats.

3) Daze number 3: A lot of lists manage off of 2 daze. I personally would hesitate to do this because after cutting one FoW, I'd be worried about bringing my counter suite down to 9, but daze is the next weakest target. After all, daze is sided out in a lot of game twos because it only takes one daze in game 1 to trip your opponent up for the match

4) Stifle number 4: Stifle can be MM'd, I'd hesitate to cut this card because I'm biased to stilfe. I've had matches in both the BuG variant of this list and my current where its just won me games. It's not always a good top deck, but it's rarely a dead card. And, well, stifle just beats hive mind. Nothing better than having your opponent lose because you stifle one or two triggers

After you cut those, if you still need room I have no idea what you're tyring to do with my list.

As for my thoughts on some of your suggestions, first Jace.
I run 20 lands in the deck, Jace is hard to support with 20 lands, seeing as 11 of them produce mana and all of them can be wasted. If you want to run jace successfully, you need to cut 4 cards to find room for 2 mana and the 2 Jace you want. i couldnt do it in the old BuG list and I can't find myself doing it in the esper build

Global removal:
Agreed, an army of dudes can be a problem and I'm trying to solve that with the massive amount of removal + plagues + perish in the board. I'll be honest, I've not really tested against junk, but i know in the GW match up, perish can be a back breaker. Its not a perfect answer, but I'm not convinced an EE would be perfect either. Personally, I'm trying to keep the maindeck pretty much where it's at, so if i were going to add EE, itd be in the board. But if you find it helpful, do let me know

Chikenbok

08-02-2011, 02:53 AM

I don't think, despite the prevalence of MM - I'd be happy cutting a stifle. Yes, it can still serve as a 1 for 1, but, as you said it is also in many games completely and utterly backbreaking.

I'm also not sure I myself would be comfortable cutting a daze as, well, its just a card I've always played - and always loved.

I might try and begin with cutting 1 Force for a fifth piece of removal and see if that shores anything up. The vindicates however, are going to stay in the board for now.

Honoluluicecaps

08-02-2011, 03:18 PM

I guess my main question with this deck is whether we can run Bitterblossom, Bob, (and although unrelated in the loss of life department, the power of Hymn) in the current shell. Specifically, is the life loss generated by BB and Bob too much to overcome, especially with other high CMC cards like FoW and Batterskull present in the deck?

Looking at most of the lists that have placed with the u/w/b shell, a few have tried to implement those three cards (most notably Edgar Flores http://mtgdecks.net/decks/view/16554) but consequently at the cost of no FoW; which is most likely the result of a lack of blue cards to fuel it and it's CMC.

I want to run Spellstutter Sprite too, especially with BB. The CA generated by some of these cards is so significant, but I just can't find a way to squeeze all of the pieces in... or if I do, it's at the cost of cards like Ponder which turn out to be lifesavers when you're dealing with Bob.

Chikenbok

08-02-2011, 10:23 PM

I guess my main question with this deck is whether we can run Bitterblossom, Bob, (and although unrelated in the loss of life department, the power of Hymn) in the current shell. Specifically, is the life loss generated by BB and Bob too much to overcome, especially with other high CMC cards like FoW and Batterskull present in the deck?

Looking at most of the lists that have placed with the u/w/b shell, a few have tried to implement those three cards (most notably Edgar Flores http://mtgdecks.net/decks/view/16554) but consequently at the cost of no FoW; which is most likely the result of a lack of blue cards to fuel it and it's CMC.

I want to run Spellstutter Sprite too, especially with BB. The CA generated by some of these cards is so significant, but I just can't find a way to squeeze all of the pieces in... or if I do, it's at the cost of cards like Ponder which turn out to be lifesavers when you're dealing with Bob.

Flores' list attempts to be more proactive with its hand disruption rather than reactive, swapping 4 forces with the Thoughtseizes you see in his build. While some people can play something like this to great results I just simply have an issue leaving home with a deck running blue that lacks at least 3 FOW's in the maindeck.

I wouldn't be too concerned with lifeloss in bob and blossom as batterskull makes up for lost life very quickly. I've just seemed to prefer throwing a tombstalker at an opponent and making them deal with a 5/5 flyer than a dark confidant these days. Spell snare is prevalent again making both bob and blossom difficult to resolve as only a force of will can prevent it, and only a swords/dismember can remove it.

Flores' list seems to attempt to solve small problems as it encounters them, stripping them from an opponents hand or missteping a swords to plowshares - The list that Jager and I have been speaking about prefer to resolve a few bombs and throw hands at opponents to keep them moving. I by all means understand the power of bob but sometimes its fun to just close out a game with a 5/5 flyer for 2.

@SS Sprite - the card is awesome and in the right deck its a beating but I've too often found myself holding mana untapped and a card in my hand rather than having something I can play.

SpeakingofJager

08-03-2011, 01:45 AM

@ Honoluluicecaps, you present some interesting and powerful cards. I just dont feel like they'd belong in my stalker list (I'm going to call it Esper America for future reference). I can't speak for anything like Flores' list, as I've never played it, but I can tell you that it plays completely different than Esper America. So i'll just comment based on what I know. If this isn't what you wanted to hear, just ignore my post XD

Anyway here are my thoughts:

Bob
- First, he's great CA, but he just does not play nice with Tombstalker. If you run Bob, you almost need to cut your tombstalkers either completely or reduce their number. I'm not willing to do this because stalker is just a bad bad man.
- The second concern is that adding bob completely changes what you want to do with the deck. You can already see that because you start thinking about changing the stalkers immediately. Because he's slows down your deck, you're then inclined to MD Jace, which in itself isn't bad, its just not what Esper America does.

Spell Stutter Sprite
- My initial thoughts are just . . . meh. The card is only good in certain decks and I dont think this deck supports it. Daze allows you to gladly tap out on turn 2 and drop your SFM, Jitte, Hymn or if you're digging a Ponder on your turn and not worry about your opponents turn 2.

Bitterblossom
- For almost the same reasons for SSS, I wouldnt want BB in the main. I can see it bieng good in a control match up, but it's probably not necessary. The MD already beats on control and if i was goin to dedicate slots against control, I'd add some sort of additional counterspells to the board. Counterspells help in more than just the control match up, so they're more versitile

In conclusion:
- Bob: Great but slows the deck down and leans you down a path of a whole different deck / play style.
- SSS: Not the right fit for this deck. I can't see myself cutting anything to find room for this little guy.
- Bitterblossom: Seems bad in the MD, and I'd rather have cards that help against control and combo in the board over this card

bokwinkle

08-03-2011, 09:01 AM

I'd like to just compare my list to Flores' list a bit. They are pretty dissimilar, but I'm one of the few people running a list with more than 3 or 4 discard spells in it and no FoW or Daze.

Generally, I've found the deck to be very "threat light" which is probably why Flores was running the bitterblossoms - and why they are a legitimate option for the deck (in some matchups - especially zoo, against path, bolt, and chain lightning).

I've found a 9 card removal suite to be pretty awesome as well (I run 4 StP, 3 PtE, 2 Vindicate) - I'm not sure how i feel about flores' 11 card removal suite...but it makes sense as he's not running any Perish in the board (which I am) - he is probably correct since most of the zoo decks are moving away from green creatures anyway, and Bant can be addressed with more targeting removal.

The biggest difference between his and my list (IMO) is the use of Hymn to Tourach over duress and Chrome mox as lands 19-21. Chrome Mox has the ability to make the deck extremely explosive, and I may be forced to go this way eventually, but generally I'm not a fan of the card disadvantage. If I had to guess, I would say the inclusion of the Mox is what led to him cutting FoW (to limit card disadvantage).

Lastly - I love the choices he made for countermagic here. He chose the Spellsnare, which is extremely relevant in a meta of 'Goyfs and SFM's, and the spellpierce - which is much more difficult to play around than daze.

I would say that this list has me thinking very hard about several of my current card choices.

Jim Higginbottom

08-08-2011, 11:25 AM

I top 8d a 24 man event yesterday going 3-1-1 in the swiss. I also went 4-0-1 with it in our weekly friday night legacy tournament at TOGIT. I have been working on various esperblade lists ever since I saw Eli Kassis playing it at GP Providence. At the time he was saying a new list should only be running 2 force of will and at the time I thought there was no way that could ever be correct, it is.

Did you get a picture of how those lists looked like? I'm really interested in the fae-approach myself.

Jim Higginbottom

08-08-2011, 03:48 PM

It's the list ben friedman played at scg pittsburgh.

oldbsturgeon

08-16-2011, 03:08 PM

Originally I had thought about making the traditional team america deck with green, but after looking at what was being played, I thought it would be A) a better choice versus some of the more popular decks B) cheaper since I didn't have tarmogoyfs any longer
I'm still in the process of getting 4 of my fetchlands but here is what I currently have together.
4 stoneforge mystic
4 tombstalker
2 batterskull
4 force of will
4 mental misstep
3 daze
3 stifle
4 brainstorm
3 ponder
4 hymn to tourach
4 swords to plowshares
4 underground sea
2 tundra
2 scrubland
3 polluted delta
3 marsh flats
3 flooded strand
4 wasteland
What I wanted was an additional land as the stoneforge package was potentially more mana intensive than the green, plus removal was now white as well.
I added the 2nd scrubland as a way to give me that.
A tentative SB is also made up, but without playing much, it's only an idea. Also I only included the cards I actually owned so there could be a few better options.
At this point it looks like this
2 Spell Pierce
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Perish
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Submerge
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Manriki gusari
1 Snuff out
1 Darkblast
1 Ghastly Demise
Ideally I would like the O-ring to be a vindicate I think and probably one of the GY cards to be surgical extraction, but that's the deck currently.
It's pretty much together just to play a friend, and maybe a local tourny but that's about it. It definitely looks fun though.

keys

08-16-2011, 05:52 PM

What do people think about this list:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6538&iddeck=47359

In my testing it has been incredibly resilient and powerful. Stifle still kicks people in the face when they're not looking, and tombstalker simply ends games. I am firmly still under the belief that a turn 1 stifle followed by a turn 2 hymn usually ends a game. Especially with a daze backup. I understand that bob really is that good if he sticks around but.. so is a 5/5 flyer. I would possibly like to fit a jace or two into the deck but I can't manage to make room at this point for anything.

I've also considered attempting to add vindicates to the MD and swapping the sword in the list with a feast and famine - other than that, its simply crippling.

I've been working on a list similar to this, that is basically Gerry Thompson's 1st place Team America list from SCG Pittsburgh, but with White instead of Green. Here's what I came up with:

I really like this color combination because Perish is such a house right now.

kingsey

08-31-2011, 08:55 PM

wanted to get this back on page one. I just switched my bobs into tombstalkers anf JTMS into vindicates.

Jim Higginbottom

09-12-2011, 11:02 AM

Sam Roukas,

Good job in Atlanta. I think the leylines in your sb should be planar voids though. I'd of sent this as a private message but I forget what your name is on here.

Scordata

09-12-2011, 03:40 PM

Username is: IsThisACatInAHat?
He'll probably do a report.

IsThisACatInAHat?

09-13-2011, 02:34 PM

Sam Roukas,

Good job in Atlanta. I think the leylines in your sb should be planar voids though. I'd of sent this as a private message but I forget what your name is on here.
Thanks Jim. It may come as no surprise, but the deck you ran at the August NELC was a major source of inspiration for me when I built this one.

I glossed over Void for 'yard hate because it's a trigger rather than a replacement effect, which came up vs Dredge in the Swiss. I'd be willing to give it a shot though, since it seems pretty interchangeable as long as they're both Enchantments and Dredge isn't running Misstep and Reanimator is a fine matchup anyway.

xfxf

09-14-2011, 08:29 AM

IsThisACatInAHat?,

It seems like your deck is closer to a UW Control list with black splash for card advantage (replacing Visions/Standstills) than an Esper Team America. Is that why you have MD Bobs instead of Tombstalkers so you can play the blue control role more effectively? Also no discards maindeck...

I really like the build but can't quite grasp the play style of the deck.

Scordata

09-14-2011, 02:28 PM

What we've found by playing this list against the gauntlet is that discard is terrible against most of the decks you'd want to use it against. Good players will almost always have a Brainstorm or MM in their hand, and suddenly that Thoughtseize turns into like half a timewalk for them. If Mindtwist was legal, maybe we'd play it.

Bob is just a better stand in for Standstills and Visions. Using the blue draw spells means you have to use man lands, which have always been underwhelming. Yes, it can be sexy to cast Standstill after resolving a SFM, and like, opperate your entire deck under one, but its much better to have more colored mana sources and swing for 2 damage occasionally.

Plus, running black gives you the best sideboard options in todays misstep dominated era. I like running Vindicates in the board cause they are badass, but it's probably incorrect.

xfxf

09-15-2011, 02:56 AM

So how's the playstyle generally? Say, if you are holding both a SFM and Bob in your opening hand and a Mental Misstep to protect either of them which one goes on the board first? Do you go with SFM first to play the aggro role or go with Bob to play a more controllish role.

This build reminds me of Forbidian of old times and I really like it (I also have an incentive to replace Cliques with more counterspells and actually play it like a straight-up control deck) so I'm really looking forward to that tournament report :)

Scordata

09-16-2011, 09:29 AM

Playstyle is really an awful word to describe the methodology of how this deck operates. There are correct and incorrect plays, which are deduced from the matchup, cards in hand, board position, etc.

For the above example, I cannot just give you an answer so easily. For instance, you don't always want to use your misstep to protect your creatures. The best use of misstep, outside of countering other missteps, is targeting threats and possibly cantrips. Hierarchs and Vials count too.

I suppose, in the NORug matchup, if I won the die roll, it might be best to just make land drops and play around my opponents inevitable turn 3 Clique rather than commit a creature to the board. If I lose the die roll, my play is going to be more reactive to what my opponent does. This may mean letting Bob eat a bolt so SFM can vial in Feast and Famine, while saving Misstep for something else, like pitching to FOW. There are so many variables present here - it is the opposite of cut and dry.

Against Stoneblade I like to make my land drops and see who blinks first. This deck can utilize tempo like crazy if you know how.

It is my opinion that this deck is a beast in the current American legacy metagame. It does not come with training wheels, however. Some of the interactions are much more complex than just playing Jace and winning the game. Yes, if oftentimes can be that academic, but if you don't know how to use brainstorm yet, play another deck.

xfxf

09-17-2011, 09:44 AM

Hey, I'm just getting back to Magic after a 10 years break and just started playing Legacy, cut me some slack :)

I think I'm OK with the use of Brainstorm, definitely not pro level and still could use some improvements but again I think I'm doing fine. When I used to actively play there were no Fethclands around and Impulse was deemed better than Brainstorm so I'll get used to it :)

But I can see what you mean, I think I'm more used to playing decks with an initial plan (straight up control so to speak) rather than decks which can change it's plan according to the matchup but this is the format and this is the current environment so what better way to learn than play, ask people about their approaches, strategies?

Still I find the deck appealing and it would be cool to read a tournament report.

Einherjer

10-04-2011, 12:55 PM

What do you think of this list?
I really like it at the moment, It evolved from my BW Deadguy Ale to this one.
What do the Esperblade Pros think?
//Lands -20
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
2 Scrubland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland

I think that Spell Snare and basic lands are really useful in this deck now. This would eliminate the need for Crucible too. I also really like Clique in the deck, and at this point haven't added Dark Confidant to the list yet, since it relies so heavily on SFM/Batterskull resolving.

Oiolosse

10-04-2011, 05:07 PM

Having play-tested UW Tempo and Bw Confidant and reading through this thread I can say that since misstep is banned (which desperately hurt this deck) UWb Esperblade needs to be tested with -4 FoW +delver of secrets, more equipment, bitterblossom, etc.

My version of Bw Confidant used bitterblossom and it was fantastic. It makes equipment (notably Jitte) much, much better. I'll throw it together and see how it plays, I just don't own Cliques yet, damnit.

oldbsturgeon

10-13-2011, 09:08 PM

I recently got a few snapcaster mages and wanted to included them in my esper deck. I have had an esper-america deck built, but seeing recent finishes with a standard TA deck, there has been a shift from the tempo idea to using cards like additional discard.
By taking the last deck I posted in the esper america thread and shifting cards to include those mentioned above, it developed into this.
4 stoneforge mystic
2 snapcaster mage
2 tombstalker
2 vendilion clique
1 batterskull
1 sword of ___
2 jace the mindsculptor
4 force of will
2 spell snare
2 daze
4 brainstorm
1 ponder
4 hymn to tourach
2 thoughtseize
4 swords to plowshares
1 dismember
22 land
One thing that a lot of people might think is that tombstalker and snapcaster do not work together, and its true you wouldn't want to play them right around to each other, but you probably wouldn't want to set things up to where that would happen anyway.
Stifle could be awesome, but I also didn't always like holding up the mana for it either. With thoughtseize, it at least makes this not an issue.
One thing I did do as adding a 22nd land, it is a sunken ruins. I haven't decided if its a good idea, but it does make it easy to get either BB or UU.

oldbsturgeon

10-13-2011, 09:08 PM

I recently got a few snapcaster mages and wanted to included them in my esper deck. I have had an esper-america deck built, but seeing recent finishes with a standard TA deck, there has been a shift from the tempo idea to using cards like additional discard.
By taking the last deck I posted in the esper america thread and shifting cards to include those mentioned above, it developed into this.
4 stoneforge mystic
2 snapcaster mage
2 tombstalker
2 vendilion clique
1 batterskull
1 sword of ___
2 jace the mindsculptor
4 force of will
2 spell snare
2 daze
4 brainstorm
1 ponder
4 hymn to tourach
2 thoughtseize
4 swords to plowshares
1 dismember
22 land
One thing that a lot of people might think is that tombstalker and snapcaster do not work together, and its true you wouldn't want to play them right around to each other, but you probably wouldn't want to set things up to where that would happen anyway.
Stifle could be awesome, but I also didn't always like holding up the mana for it either. With thoughtseize, it at least makes this not an issue.
One thing I did do as adding a 22nd land, it is a sunken ruins. I haven't decided if its a good idea, but it does make it easy to get either BB or UU.

oldbsturgeon

10-19-2011, 08:18 PM

A quick update to the list I posted above. It turns out I really like the snapcasters and probably will go to 3 or even 4. If so I'll have to cut the tombstalkers to make it work. There is also benefit to adding at least 1 simply to increase the blue count up to 20.
Currently I added an additional land as well, bringing the count to 23 and reduced the fetches to 8 and added a basic of each land. The basics may not be necessary and if I went with all 4 snapcasters, a riptide lab may be the way to go.
By adding the additonal land it also meant I either had to cut the dismember and go with 4 removal or keep the dismember and play 3 swords in the main. I am still deciding how I would want to do this as well.
Any suggestions?

BackDr0p

10-20-2011, 01:17 AM

Have you guys had a look at the following lists which placed 2nd and 4th respectively at the recent Jupiter Games tournament (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22102-Jupiter-games-october-15th-nelc-event/page2)?

These lists take the deck in two very interesting directions. Thoughts?

catmint

10-20-2011, 06:55 AM

I like snapcaster mage a lot.

Still not sure if I should play BUG or BUW in Amsterdam, but if I play Esperblade I would play a control game with 23-24 lands. In a build with Jace and Snapcaster Daze is bad and therefore Stifle won't be included in my build.

Goddik

10-20-2011, 10:52 AM

Eli Kassis Esper stoneforge build from the last Jupitor games has been testing really well for me. -1 bitterblossom, +1 snapcaster and a complete redesign of the sideboard and you are good to go. Being able to skip force due to seize, daze, stifle and vindicate is wonderfull in all the attrition matchups.

oldbsturgeon

10-20-2011, 11:00 AM

Well I want more blue cards and daze can give me that plus having only 2 doesn't make it too big a deal with the above mentioned cards, at least I don't think.
If I up the mage count to say 4, and cut daze that would give me the 19 blue still, though I would like 20
Maybe add an additional snare to it?

oldbsturgeon

10-27-2011, 09:58 AM

I was able to get 2 more snapcasters for my deck and now have 4 in my build. I also finally was able to get a sword of feast and famine too, replacing the sword of body and mind I had in it.
By doing exactly what I was proposing with cutting the 2 daze I had, adding an additional spell snare, the deck turned out to be pretty awesome I feel.
My take is this:
4 snapcaster mage
4 stoneforge mystic
2 vendilion clique
2 jace the mindsculptor
1 sword of feast and famine
1 batterskull
4 force of will
3 spell snare
4 brainstorm
1 ponder
4 hymn to tourach
2 thoughtseize
4 swords to plowshares
1 dismember
4 underground sea
2 tundra
2 scrubland
1 island
1 swamp
1 plains
4 wasteland
4 marsh flats
3 polluted delta
1 flooded strand

something I found out was making sure you had white was pretty important so put the plains in there to have 3 basics.

oldbsturgeon

11-07-2011, 08:04 AM

Heh, I think I'm talking to myself in this thread as of late, but if anyone looked at the legacy decklists from this past SCG open, they would have seen an esperblade list among them.
The interesting part is only having 2 force of will, no maindeck discard, the inclusion of 2 chrome mox, and 3 bitterblossom.
I would doubt I would enjoy chrome mox in the deck, nor bitterblossom, so it would be interesting what others who have played those cards would think

jeanbathez

11-07-2011, 08:53 AM

No, you don't talk to yourself ;-)
I also saw the list, and i'am also not sure about the chrome moxes, but it makes very strong turn 1 plays possible, turne 1 stoneforge or confidant or blossom isn't that bad.

About bitterblossom, i'am not sure about it atm, if it resolves it gives enough creatures to your equipment, when i played uw stoneblade, i often had the problem that my small creatures all died before they could take equipment... and hardcasting battleskull takes a lot of time...

I think uwb stoneblade is a good way, but i'am not sure about how the build should look like. What i know it sholud have 4 stoneforge and 4 snapcaster, black discard and ...? :-)

The thing about Bitterblossom is that if you land it on a clean table, it's really hard for your opponent to race it.

And if it's not in a clean table, you get to Force Field a Tarmogoyf or Knight of the Reliquary while you dig for removal.

It works well in offense, defense, carries an equipment and kills planeswalkers.

There are cards that make it terrible, like Fire/Ice and Jitte, but I think it's too powerful and fits easily into the deck to cut it completely...

oldbsturgeon

11-08-2011, 10:20 AM

For the above deck, it appears a little risky for dark confidant simply due to the high CMC of many of the cards in it. 3 jace, 4 force, 1 batterskull, plus 5 cards costing 3. It might not be a big deal if you can land a batterskull and recoup some life but otherwise I think you might be running the risk of killing yourself that way.
Also why the low amount of land (21) and 4 mishra's factory instead of wasteland.
These are all questions a posting of a decklist do not answer very well.
Originally I thought if you were wanting to play chrome mox, you would want more free counterspells, but then began to think that's even more disadvantage on your end, so you could potentially play something like Eli did with no force, and more removal or discard

From the top of my head. Cards that can be included in the main : Vindicate, Discard,... to make more use of Snappy. I opted to not play Mutavault or Wasteland which are all options, this deck can be build with so much options- in so many different directions...

And with snappy the SB gets easier : some number of extraction, spell peirce, discard...

For the above deck, it appears a little risky for dark confidant simply due to the high CMC of many of the cards in it. 3 jace, 4 force, 1 batterskull, plus 5 cards costing 3. It might not be a big deal if you can land a batterskull and recoup some life but otherwise I think you might be running the risk of killing yourself that way.
Also why the low amount of land (21) and 4 mishra's factory instead of wasteland.
These are all questions a posting of a decklist do not answer very well.
Originally I thought if you were wanting to play chrome mox, you would want more free counterspells, but then began to think that's even more disadvantage on your end, so you could potentially play something like Eli did with no force, and more removal or discard"

Here is why I made the choices that I did with this deck. First of all, dark confidant is not as risky as he might seem. You have a lot of ways to manipulate your deck, between 6 cantrips, 4 snapcasters to get cantrips back, and 3 Jace. Also, even losing a lot of life with dark confidant has often not been as big of a deal for me as it might seem - even while playing against my friend's zoo deck (which is the deck I have actually played against more than anything else). Once you start playing removal spells and buying them back with snapcaster, landing Jace, etc., you can clog up the board pretty well in order to stabilize. I used to run sensei's divining top as a way to help with bob, instead of running ponder, but when I added snapcasters I switched to ponder and it has worked out well so far. Life loss is a concern, but hasn't hasn't been too much of a problem so far.

Moreover, Bob is essential to this build in my opinion, because he gives you one more "must kill" threat. I have found it useful to play him and stoneforge very aggressively, letting them kill the first of the two, and then playing the second, ideally with force of will backup, after they have used their removal spell. They almost always kill the first if they have removal, and either one, if it sticks, is often enough to win the game for you.

Regarding the land count - I have found that with the six cantrips and only 4 colorless lands, there haven't been too many problems. Not only are there six cantrips, but you can use snapcaster to retrieve them. Also, there are only 6 black cards in the deck, none of which cost double black, so your mana base is actually fairly stable. Often what happens is you fetch up a black land on the second turn for bob, and then even if they waste you, you are fine, as you probably don't have any more black cards to cast and all your lands make blue and white except for factory.

Also - aside from the fact that I simply don't have wastelands - I didn't want to go above 4 colorless lands while playing three colors, and I really wanted man-lands for the sword and to protect Jace. Also, they are useful if your life is low (from bob or simply just b/c) to use as blockers for nimble mongooses, nactl's, kird apes, etc. Finally, they simply increase your clock a hell of a lot. If you have a snapcaster and they have a goyf, and goyf is a 4/5, you can race them if you have a factory. THis seems essential, even though wasteland is obviously sick and gets you lots of random free wins.

bfeingersh

11-09-2011, 11:56 AM

Thinking about running this in a tournament over the weekend. Definitely more UBw than UWb, but probably fits in this thread nonetheless.

Probably should be a Tundra or two over a Scrubland, to accommodate Counterspell and Jace, if the only double colored was Hymn might be less needed. Personally I'd put another Spell Snare in over a 1cc discard spell as well, mostly due to prevalence of 2cc bombs and synergy with Snapcaster. Otherwise looks like a good list.

Aside, have you tried Unearth at all? I know this was hyped early on, but don't know if it proved good or unnecessary.

bfeingersh

11-09-2011, 01:00 PM

I've played Unearth and it's pretty sick. I could see making cuts for it somewhere in the list, but I don't know where. Maybe cut a couple planeswalkers since they have the least synergy and are definitely "good stuff" inclusions, but it feels wrong to not have those powerful cards in there.

rchinnock

11-09-2011, 03:05 PM

yeah, looks like a good list. Is it hard to reliably do the whole hymn/stoneforge thing though, along with brainstorm?

oldbsturgeon

11-09-2011, 07:48 PM

What I found with unearth is that IT was the win more card and didn't really feel that necessary especially if you had riptide lab in the deck as well.
Yeah, you can do some cool things with it, but I never seemed to get lucky enough for those to happen.

Delver of secrets has been a beast for me and I think it deserves to be tested.

3 artifacts with stoneforge works really well with the 16 creatures in the deck.

Darkblast is really good right now (delver, lavamancer, mom, etc) and I switched it from my sb to the main.

I used to run wastelands but found them pretty lackluster, so I went with utility lands instead (which are great so far).

I opted not to use hymn since that destroyed the manabase and made you even more vulnerable to wasteland/stifle by not being able to fetch basics.

Thoughts?

oldbsturgeon

11-13-2011, 07:16 AM

Delver could be good for you, but typically the way someone would want to use delver would be have less creatures in the deck so as to not dillute the deck's ability to flip the wizard easily
For instance in the RUG deck, it runs 12 creatures, 18 land, making 50% of the deck able to flip him.
In your build you have 19 creature/other 22 land, meaning 32% chance of flipping.
I don't particularly like those odds, but it would change positively due to brainstorm, fetches, etc, though so would the RUGs deck probibility.
If you like it though, keep it

Windux

11-13-2011, 02:20 PM

I thought about this deck as well. My first thinking was: So many insane cc2 creatures, let's play Chrome Mox. But to drop a Snapcaster Turn 1 is pretty awful ;) Chrome Mox for 8 creatures are not enough. With 4 Hymns it would be good.

17 Lands + 3 Moxen for example.
To remove a Card with Mox weakens our hand, but playing 3 Mox Diamonds would force us to play too many lands.
So I came up with the following list:

The problem about Counterspell is, that it is the only spell, which requires UU (by the time you play Force of Will, you should have the UU anyway).

Cutting a land and one land, would give the possibility to run 2 Ponder/2 Tops to give more Cardadvantage (Ponder gives us cardadvantage with Snapcaste, top constant CQ).
Lilliana is pretty awesome. But cutting Lilliana for Explosives and adding a Academy Ruins insteand.

You could look at Edgar's 13th place Vegas deck as inspiration to build upon utilizing a deck with chrome mox.
If I were to build a deck like that one, I think I would cut the bitterblossoms.

Windux

11-14-2011, 12:20 AM

Half of the deck are 2-offs....No way that I take that as inspiration ;P

The 2 Cliques are ok, I thought about the same, but cutting 1 Stoneforge and another card.
I would cut Forces or Daze. You have to stick Confidant or SFM to take advantage of the Mox. Daze and FOrce are the best ways to keep them on the battlefield.

oldbsturgeon

11-14-2011, 08:02 AM

Okay well take my build for example,
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Dark Confidant
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Jace the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquistion of Kozelik
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Dismember
1 Vindicate
4 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
2 Scrubland
3 Polluted Delta
4 Marsh Flats
1 Flooded Strand
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Plains
3-4 Wasteland
0-1 Riptide Labratory
If I were to put in say 2 Chrome Mox, the first places I would look to cut would be 2 the Jace most likely. They make dark condfidant a higher risk, take up some of the most resources initially cost wise.
The other option would be to cut a discard spell like inquisition and a removal like vindicate to make room for them too. Lastly would be to cut 2 land like 2 wastelands. I would like to still have 2 wasteland and a riptide lab, so it would be cutting 1 land and a spell listed above.

bokwinkle

11-14-2011, 02:32 PM

I'd be lying if I didn't say that I've tested Fae' builds like BFS's list. The synergy of bitterblossom and SFM is an easy sell - and so many builds are already using VClique anyway...it's a pretty short jump to run Mutavault and Spellstutter. I haven't had the success that BFS has had in testing though...the deck is far to reactive for my play style.

I like Eli's list, but Eli...well, he'd top 8 that even with a deck running 54 basics. However, I think there is a lot to be learned from Eli's list. No force, + bob, just 4 cantrips....there are a lot of things going on here that other people simply aren't doing.

What I like about the deck is the card advantage considerations. I hate FoW (the card dis-advantage hurts a lot in this deck and it doesn't pair well with bob), and every creature performs a card advantage function. This, IMHO, is textbook Fish - CA, CA, CA - then finish with powerful spells. It's just a solid list.

That being said, what makes the list significantly stronger is the meta. Stifle/Daze/wasteland (mana-denial, TA-esque package) is very good in a meta that is packed with very greedy mana bases. Similarly, the lack of Hymn allows the mana base to be much less greedy than it's team america counterpart - basically allowing to fetch basics early while not worrying about being able to cast Hymn. Additionally, the decks that aren't utilizing greedy mana bases (mostly tribal) are all but obsolete because of recurring Swords and Equipment. Lastly, Stifle is a house right now and I think it's highly underplayed ATM - considering the volume of answers it provides.

I have minor things I'd change (for playstyle more than anything), but if I were playing esper right now my list would look very close to Eli's.

bob2008

11-16-2011, 10:03 AM

I play Bitterblossom (3) instead of Confi in this deck because it is more difficult to deal with it once it is resolved .
IMO it makes the deck less fragile to play BB and even though Confi is definitively one of the best cards in legacy - the impact of a Bitterblossom is not that bad either...

oldbsturgeon

11-16-2011, 07:55 PM

Now that I have some, I like the idea of dark confidant as it acts as a card that has to be dealt with fairly quickly.
If your plan then is to stick a mystic and get batterskull down, he does a great job of getting this done, as you either:
take over with confidant
or let it die and take over with batterskull.
either way you are in pretty good shape.
I could see bitterblossom being a good alternative too

rchinnock

11-17-2011, 06:53 PM

What you just said about Dark Confidant, as far as I am concerned, is the strongest argument for esper-blade over UW blade. It lets you play like a fish deck against control, since you have another must kill creature, which lets you play both it (bob) and stoneforge far more aggressively. Also, against combo, if you land a bob you can draw so many answers that if they don't go off right away that you will reach the threshold which they can't fight through your disruption any more. Finally, having another dude to wear swords rocks.

Also, in my opinion, the argument for mishra's factory over wasteland in this deck is greatly strengthened by running bob, since if you are then you have 8 guys (including snapcaster) that, along iwth a factory can put on a fairly fast clock against control and combo. This pushes you over the threshold from control to aggro-control, as you don't have to both land and protect SFM to put be aggressive and put on a good clock, but have a number of other ways in which you can do this as well. V-Clique contributes to this as well, obviously.

Bob, snapcaster, and V-Clique are complemented by mishra's factory in a similar way to how stifle and daze complement wasteland - they are pushed over from merely card-advantage generating critters who can EVENTUALLY win, to, when you have a factory, a fairly fast clock when you have cleared the way of blockers.

oldbsturgeon

11-18-2011, 09:21 AM

Instead of running factory, you could probably make a case for mutavault and with a little tweaking get some pretty good synergy from the deck too.
4 stoneforge mystic
4 snapcaster mage
3 dark confidant
1 spellstutter sprite
2 vendilion clique
1 batterskull
1 sword of feast and famine
4 force of will
3 spell snare
4 brainstorm
1 ponder
3 swords to plowshares
1 dismember
3 bitterblossom
2 jace the mindsculptor
4 underground sea
2 tundra
2 scrubland
3 mutavault
1 riptide labratory
1 plains
1 swamp
1 island
8 fetches
for the side, you throw in some discard cards, more removal, spell pierces, graveyard hate, and you're good to go
You get a lot of faerie power from this deck in a configuration, but don't potentially gain even more card disadvantage running daze, chrome mox, and force of will like edgar's deck could have been.
Also you could then change the sword to jitte to get better synergy with the tokens you are making too. That I'm not sure about

rchinnock

11-19-2011, 11:01 AM

I like that list in some ways, but my objection to the mutavault/bitterblossom/spellstutter thing in a deck that already runs Stoneforge, Snapcaster, AND bob is that you simply have way too many 2-drops. If you ran 3 chrome mox, you would have less of a chance of running into problems with this, but otherwise it will be clunky. I think that you can afford to run either chrome mox or force of will in a deck like this becuase you already have so much card advantage that losing a little to get your threats out a lot faster (mox) or make sure that they resolve (force) is worth it. I wouldn't run both but running one seems essential.

Also, I would never downgrade to mutavault from factory simply for a single spellstutter sprite. I would run 2-4 spellstutters and mutavault or none at all, and factory. The difference in power-level between factory and mutavault is significant - one can block and kill kird apes, trade with nactl's, etc., the other cannot. a factory can block and kill a factory and live, a mutavault trades - etc.

Finally, I would run 4 swords to plowshares, and maybe THEN add a dismember. Swords is simply better, especially when you already have bob and bitterblossom, which bring a lot of life-loss.

hyggli

12-26-2011, 08:34 AM

Atm i'm testing this.
The idea has come out initially to be a good deck vs Maverick and threshold.

my meta is filled with 1-2drops and without any s&ts. A riptide laboratory/Vendilion clique couple may be worth trying but i'd like to be less wastable possible.

This loses to ant md quite a bit, even with 11 cspells. You do need those cbalances in the side.

BantFTW

12-26-2011, 09:33 AM

If the meta is filled, just play darkblast in the side.. You can kill really much with it, even x/2's if you play it before draw and dredge and play it again :)

I would never play confi in esperblade because confi is so easy to kill, but he needs to be killed that's true also.
If you got a bitterblossom into play, that's another situation because those things are very hard to get rid off. It provides you blockers and if you play 4 spellstutter then you can counter like everything to...

BantFTW

12-29-2011, 06:39 AM

I have a question:
Would elspeth be to hard to play (because of double white) in this deck?
And also, is 3 vendillion Clique to much or not?
I really don't know it so I thought let's ask it.

OrGy

01-12-2012, 05:10 AM

I've been piloting the list below to solid Top 8 results during the past 3 months :

[B]4 SFM: Obv. with the equipment package containing Batterskull. The card is both CA/CQ as usual.

3 DC: Tried as a 4 of in the first place, the openers with more than 1 were pretty much always mediocre as you don't ever want to have 2 on board with some high CC in the list. 3 has proven a fairly effective number so far.

3 SCM: 4 is too much IMHO as the card often act as a late game bomb. 2 would be not enough as in some matchup, you want to play it Turn 3 and recur a removal to stabilize or spotted discard to maintain pressure on your opponent hand.

2 Geist: The guy is golden. Vs. control, it dodges removal and bash for a tremendous amount of damage. Vs. Aggro, it carries charged Jittes or SoFaF unopposed. There are very few thing that can manage a 4/4 Hexproof Pro green/black beater that bash for 8 total.

2 Thoughtseize / 2 Inquisition of Kozilek: Spot Discard is key to fight on a fair ground against combo, while not being irrelevant Vs. Aggro denying them access to their next drops in the curve or stripping them of the removal they would otherwise aim at our Card Advantage creatures. The split is a safe way to warrant not losing too many LP while using Confidant and fetches on a regular basis.

3 Spell Pierce: We just need to keep Combo in check. Having access to cheap counter accomplishes just that. Like the 4 disrupt cards, the card prove fairly relevant against aggro countering their removal on SFM/DC giving us the opportunity to stabilize.

2 Ponder: With only 21 lands and 2 of hate card in the sideboard, we must ensure that we dig deep enough in our library not to miss any land-drop and find our answers. I'd rather have this over Preordain because it theorically digs deeper to find specific card and the fact that we can rearrange our 3 top at will is more relevant with card such as Confidant if a land is available among the 3 we see. This used to be a 3 of till I witnessed a rise in popularity of Delver based decks in my meta, leading to the inclusion of the card bellow.

1 Repeal: The all around player. On a transformed Delver, the card pulls out a good tempo boost costing 1 and cantripping while your opponent must setup a new top of library to transform his dude once again. A cantripping blue fog is just perfect to support our middle to late game strategy. On various occasion, the card gives access to nice tricks (Liliana on the opponent side with his hand emptied, Repeal in response to Lili's +1 is just hilarious). Bouncing and nabbing the card bounced with Seize or Inquisition is also a quite potent play costing us 1 card. The card gives us the 21th blue card allowing us to FOW without any real effort.

2 Jace: A shame we don't have room for a third one. Ramping to 4 mana can be troublesome at times but overall, he does what he does, closing games on his own.

Manabase: pretty self explanatory. A quick hint for Wasteland though : While a times the card allows us to cut selectively a relevant color on our opponent side, it's here manily to remove some pesky lands (Maze/Laboratory/Tower of the Magistrate/Grove/Mishra/Mutavault), in time for us to hit with our equipments and gaining advantage.

SB :
1 Spell Pierce: It allows us to run 8 relevant counters against storm post-board.

2 Diabolic Edict: With Reanimator running rampant in my meta, the card offers us a way to deal with a resolved Inkwell Leviathan or a Iona setup on white. Not bad against all kind of aggro decks where post board we tend to shoot critters at sight.

2 Darkblast: Delver/Confidant/Xantid/Lavamancer/Mother of Runes/Hierarch/Elves/SCM, the list is incredibly long. Recuring spot removal is kind of the dream and synergizes well with ours Ponder/Brainstorm to get rid of the irrelevant cards.

3 Surgical Extraction: Did I told you that Reanimator was running rampant in my meta ? Useful against Punishing Fire / Loam and really synergetic with SCM.

1 Liliana of the Veil: Bant and many non red strategies cannot effectively deal with Lili slow but constant hand grinding. A third sac effect is not that bad in aggro matchups were Jace tend to be too slow to have an impact.

2 Meddling Mage: Very usefull when your opponent relies on key card to deploy its strategy. Replaces Geist or SFM depending of the matchups.

1 Relic of Progenitus: A fourth graveyard dealing card helps greatly when it comes to graveyard dependant MU such as Ichorid or Reanimator.

1 Vindicate: All around player, really great against Control or as a second response (Repeal beeing the first) to hate permanents (BtB, Blood Moon, choke).

Do not post decklists with no explanation of cards or deck discussion or without proper punctuation / capitalization. If you haven't already, please familiarize yourself with the site rules (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?45-MTS-Site-Rules). -Jander

sumbahdy

01-24-2012, 11:13 PM

@OrGy

Nice list. I would like to give it a try too. One question though, seeing that 2cc spells are very popular right now, I noticed the absence of Spell Snare in your list. Is Spell pierce much better than it? How about Lilliana, does the deck really need it? Couldn't the slot be another instant or sorcery that can answer threats?

I actually kind of like Repeal. It can be an out to an early Blood Moon, Vindicating is much harder. Also I think it has application against most DTBs, here the instant speed EOT tempo gain of returning something to their hand and cantripping is actually a bigger beating than sorcery speed destroying it. I'm looking at: Repealing Batterskull's Germ token (Stoneblade, Deadguy), GSZ'd Dryad Arbors (Maverick, Bant), and flipped Delver of Secrets (RUG). Repeal works as a great means to maximize resources in any of those cases forcing your opponent to expend more mana/time reestablishing board state, while the UWb Esper player has no real investment (between Instant speed and cantripping). Buffing Blue count is never awful either, though I'd consider it minor.

OrGy

01-25-2012, 05:33 AM

@OrGy

Nice list. I would like to give it a try too. One question though, seeing that 2cc spells are very popular right now, I noticed the absence of Spell Snare in your list. Is Spell pierce much better than it? How about Lilliana, does the deck really need it? Couldn't the slot be another instant or sorcery that can answer threats?Thanks for the comment :)

Spell Snare over Spell Pierce in the list is a frequent debate in my team : Each
card has its merit but overall, Jace as an individual threat and ANT/TES as a whole are a lot more frightening than opposing 2CC threats (with the exception of Bitterblossom which rarely sees play in our meta). But, if you feel more confortable with Snare, the switch can be made without any major drawback.

Liliana never cease to amaze me post board against Mid Range strategies : Without real mean to get rid of it, Bant will be reduced to subpar play in short order (like throwing Cliques and Snapcaster Mages without protection right onto STP and Darkblasts).
At worst, the card can simply -2 to get rid of an opposing creature, and get bashed on opposing turn, effectively acting as a Edict + 1/2 Fog effect, allowing us to build up our board without being under too much pressure to stabilize.

I actually kind of like Repeal. It can be an out to an early Blood Moon, Vindicating is much harder. Also I think it has application against most DTBs, here the instant speed EOT tempo gain of returning something to their hand and cantripping is actually a bigger beating than sorcery speed destroying it. I'm looking at: Repealing Batterskull's Germ token (Stoneblade, Deadguy), GSZ'd Dryad Arbors (Maverick, Bant), and flipped Delver of Secrets (RUG). Repeal works as a great means to maximize resources in any of those cases forcing your opponent to expend more mana/time reestablishing board state, while the UWb Esper player has no real investment (between Instant speed and cantripping). Buffing Blue count is never awful either, though I'd consider it minor.I couldn't have put better words on the usefulness of the card (although I must point out that Repeal on GSZ'd Dryad Arbor will certainly get you a spicy Warning on Illegal Target ^^)

Minor tricks occasionnaly show up during testing or tournaments :
- While racing, bouncing Geist's Angel token post damage step can help us reach the critical removal we need.
- Snapcnaster Mage can also benefit from its interactions with Repeal, Surprise Chumpblocking opponent's bigger Threat and being bounced back to our hand, ready for some more flashbacking action, netting us on card in the process.
- Resetting a Loyaltied-Up Jace, can be game saving at times also.

I've been running this more controlish list for a while and it's been really solid! It focuses on card advantage via Jace, Bitterblossom, Snapcaster, SFM to overwhelm opponents.

The deck tries to dodge STP by only playing creatures that give you immediate card advantage (so no Dark Confidant).

Bitterblossom is a real headache for aggro-control and control decks, and also helps having blockers every turn vs Aggro. It also protects Jace very well and takes care of opposing planeswalkers! It also works extremely well with Jitte and the occasional Batterskull equip.

Jace just wins games, play 4!

The manabase has been very solid for me so far. 24 lands works well with 4 Jace and trying to land a turn 2 Bitterblossom/SFM whenever possible. And it is easy to shuffle away excess lands with Jace/Brainstorm(Snapcaster) late game. I think it's hard to justify playing utility lands (Mishra's, Riptide, etc) before the full set of Wastelands since it is way more versatile.

Inquisition is a card I've been testing recently and have been pleased with it so far. Snapcaster flashback is great!

Thoughts?

Jeet

01-30-2012, 01:58 PM

I've been piloting the list below to solid Top 8 results during the past 3 months :

[B]4 SFM: Obv. with the equipment package containing Batterskull. The card is both CA/CQ as usual.

3 DC: Tried as a 4 of in the first place, the openers with more than 1 were pretty much always mediocre as you don't ever want to have 2 on board with some high CC in the list. 3 has proven a fairly effective number so far.

3 SCM: 4 is too much IMHO as the card often act as a late game bomb. 2 would be not enough as in some matchup, you want to play it Turn 3 and recur a removal to stabilize or spotted discard to maintain pressure on your opponent hand.

2 Geist: The guy is golden. Vs. control, it dodges removal and bash for a tremendous amount of damage. Vs. Aggro, it carries charged Jittes or SoFaF unopposed. There are very few thing that can manage a 4/4 Hexproof Pro green/black beater that bash for 8 total.

2 Thoughtseize / 2 Inquisition of Kozilek: Spot Discard is key to fight on a fair ground against combo, while not being irrelevant Vs. Aggro denying them access to their next drops in the curve or stripping them of the removal they would otherwise aim at our Card Advantage creatures. The split is a safe way to warrant not losing too many LP while using Confidant and fetches on a regular basis.

3 Spell Pierce: We just need to keep Combo in check. Having access to cheap counter accomplishes just that. Like the 4 disrupt cards, the card prove fairly relevant against aggro countering their removal on SFM/DC giving us the opportunity to stabilize.

2 Ponder: With only 21 lands and 2 of hate card in the sideboard, we must ensure that we dig deep enough in our library not to miss any land-drop and find our answers. I'd rather have this over Preordain because it theorically digs deeper to find specific card and the fact that we can rearrange our 3 top at will is more relevant with card such as Confidant if a land is available among the 3 we see. This used to be a 3 of till I witnessed a rise in popularity of Delver based decks in my meta, leading to the inclusion of the card bellow.

1 Repeal: The all around player. On a transformed Delver, the card pulls out a good tempo boost costing 1 and cantripping while your opponent must setup a new top of library to transform his dude once again. A cantripping blue fog is just perfect to support our middle to late game strategy. On various occasion, the card gives access to nice tricks (Liliana on the opponent side with his hand emptied, Repeal in response to Lili's +1 is just hilarious). Bouncing and nabbing the card bounced with Seize or Inquisition is also a quite potent play costing us 1 card. The card gives us the 21th blue card allowing us to FOW without any real effort.

2 Jace: A shame we don't have room for a third one. Ramping to 4 mana can be troublesome at times but overall, he does what he does, closing games on his own.

Manabase: pretty self explanatory. A quick hint for Wasteland though : While a times the card allows us to cut selectively a relevant color on our opponent side, it's here manily to remove some pesky lands (Maze/Laboratory/Tower of the Magistrate/Grove/Mishra/Mutavault), in time for us to hit with our equipments and gaining advantage.

SB :
1 Spell Pierce: It allows us to run 8 relevant counters against storm post-board.

2 Diabolic Edict: With Reanimator running rampant in my meta, the card offers us a way to deal with a resolved Inkwell Leviathan or a Iona setup on white. Not bad against all kind of aggro decks where post board we tend to shoot critters at sight.

2 Darkblast: Delver/Confidant/Xantid/Lavamancer/Mother of Runes/Hierarch/Elves/SCM, the list is incredibly long. Recuring spot removal is kind of the dream and synergizes well with ours Ponder/Brainstorm to get rid of the irrelevant cards.

3 Surgical Extraction: Did I told you that Reanimator was running rampant in my meta ? Useful against Punishing Fire / Loam and really synergetic with SCM.

1 Liliana of the Veil: Bant and many non red strategies cannot effectively deal with Lili slow but constant hand grinding. A third sac effect is not that bad in aggro matchups were Jace tend to be too slow to have an impact.

2 Meddling Mage: Very usefull when your opponent relies on key card to deploy its strategy. Replaces Geist or SFM depending of the matchups.

1 Relic of Progenitus: A fourth graveyard dealing card helps greatly when it comes to graveyard dependant MU such as Ichorid or Reanimator.

1 Vindicate: All around player, really great against Control or as a second response (Repeal beeing the first) to hate permanents (BtB, Blood Moon, choke).

I feel like 21 lands is too few for this kind of deck, as a single Wasteland can wreck it pretty hard, in addition to the chance of being mana screwed at the beginning of the game (especially in a 3 color deck!).

In my testing, I found out that Spell Snare is a much better topdeck than Spell Pierce and deals with more dangerous threats even at the beginning of a match. You should consider a split, if not running the full set of Spell Snare.

I feel like 21 lands is too few for this kind of deck, as a single Wasteland can wreck it pretty hard, in addition to the chance of being mana screwed at the beginning of the game (especially in a 3 color deck!).

In my testing, I found out that Spell Snare is a much better topdeck than Spell Pierce and deals with more dangerous threats even at the beginning of a match. You should consider a split, if not running the full set of Spell Snare.Confidant is on rare occasions a problem due to some high CC lurking in the deck, I must admit. This of course must be mitigated by :
> the fact that Batterskull is really often fetched by SFM thus not that regularly on top of the library
> the use of Ponder/Brainstorm/Jace to prevent too much hard hits
> the relatively low average CC of the list ~1,36, including Batterksull)
> Batterskull/Jitte which both allow to stay high in LP when online (I know this argument is a bit flawed, but still valid when fighting toes to toes against an opponent also running Batterskull. In that case, CA is really what's make the winner)

21 lands fells just fine to me, because my list is a tiny bit less controlish than yours and, Jace/Batterskull aside, I don't need more than 3 mana to be operational. Ponder, Brainstorm and proper fetching to prevent being wastelocked away are necessary indeed.

I will give Snare another shot, because the card is really powerful and a better topdeck as you mentionned. Pierce made the cut in my meta primarly because of Reanimator and ANT running rampant. A 2/1 split could be efficient.

Regarding the list you proposed, I like it very much. I must point out that all 4 Wasteland may seem a little too much, since you are not running any kind of mana denial => 1 manland such as Creeping Tar Pit or simply Factory could do the trick as a replacement. Wasteland really serves as a utilitary land hoser (Grove/Maze/tower of the Magistrate) and with good Library manipulation, you will most certainly get one when necessary running only 3.
Kudos on that list, I will most certainly test it and try to give you a more detailled feedback.

cuthbertthecat

01-31-2012, 04:13 PM

I've been testing out orgy's list, and it's sick! I only wish there was room for more repeals; the look on the opponent's face when you bounce batterskull's germ token is priceless.

sumbahdy

02-01-2012, 01:20 AM

@Jeet

Do you really need 4 Jace in the deck? I'd say 2 would be ok and add more t1 discard or a catch all spell like Vindicate? Also why the 4th Force of Will in the SB rather than MD?

OrGy

02-01-2012, 05:17 AM

I've been testing out orgy's list, and it's sick! I only wish there was room for more repeals; the look on the opponent's face when you bounce batterskull's germ token is priceless.Due to the rise in popularity of Nic Fit and Liliana Junk in my meta, I've been testing some minor tweaks :

MD => - 1 Dark Confidant + 1 Vendilion clique
Dark Confidant too often falls prey to Liliana's -2 and various sorcery speed removals, without time to net me some useful CA. Clique EOT casting helps quickly solving Liliana while stripping your opponent of any relevant removal they might hold in hand. 1 loyalty Liliana against a flying 3/1 : My bet on the later. And additional body to carry equipments all the way is indeed a nice bonus.

SB => - 1 Darkblast + 1 Path to Exile
Darkblast, while being really useful against Tempo Zoo and Maverick, is kind of disapointing when facing reccuring Finks, Sun Titan, Scanvenging Ooze. Exiling those pesky problems is always nice. The added bonus is that Tempo and punishing Maverick lists run very few basic lands (1 or 0), so OK, I don't get to reccur my removal, but you don't get any additional land, sir.

Jeet

02-01-2012, 12:05 PM

Confidant is on rare occasions a problem due to some high CC lurking in the deck, I must admit. This of course must be mitigated by :
> the fact that Batterskull is really often fetched by SFM thus not that regularly on top of the library
> the use of Ponder/Brainstorm/Jace to prevent too much hard hits
> the relatively low average CC of the list ~1,36, including Batterksull)
> Batterskull/Jitte which both allow to stay high in LP when online (I know this argument is a bit flawed, but still valid when fighting toes to toes against an opponent also running Batterskull. In that case, CA is really what's make the winner)

21 lands fells just fine to me, because my list is a tiny bit less controlish than yours and, Jace/Batterskull aside, I don't need more than 3 mana to be operational. Ponder, Brainstorm and proper fetching to prevent being wastelocked away are necessary indeed.

I will give Snare another shot, because the card is really powerful and a better topdeck as you mentionned. Pierce made the cut in my meta primarly because of Reanimator and ANT running rampant. A 2/1 split could be efficient.

Regarding the list you proposed, I like it very much. I must point out that all 4 Wasteland may seem a little too much, since you are not running any kind of mana denial => 1 manland such as Creeping Tar Pit or simply Factory could do the trick as a replacement. Wasteland really serves as a utilitary land hoser (Grove/Maze/tower of the Magistrate) and with good Library manipulation, you will most certainly get one when necessary running only 3.
Kudos on that list, I will most certainly test it and try to give you a more detailled feedback.

I played Dark Confidant for a good while and the life loss, and making my opponent's removal relevant is what made me switch it for Bitterblossom. But if Dark Confidant sticks around for a turn or two, you are in very good shape of winning the game. It is a very good card.

I would go for at least 22 lands while playing 2 Jace and 2 Geist. Maybe cut a Ponder for a land?

@Jeet

Do you really need 4 Jace in the deck? I'd say 2 would be ok and add more t1 discard or a catch all spell like Vindicate? Also why the 4th Force of Will in the SB rather than MD?

Jace just wins you the game most of the time, if you untap with it in play. And it's a beating for Maverick and UW, both of which who see quite a bit of play nowadays. I might consider Vindicate for SB as it does sound good.

I moved a FoW to the SB after I added IoK MD, since I found myself siding out at least a FoW in many matchups due to card disadvantage. I don't really want to play more discard MD since while being amazing early game, it doesn't shine as much in the late game.

OrGy

02-02-2012, 03:41 AM

I played Dark Confidant for a good while and the life loss, and making my opponent's removal relevant is what made me switch it for Bitterblossom. But if Dark Confidant sticks around for a turn or two, you are in very good shape of winning the game. It is a very good card.

I would go for at least 22 lands while playing 2 Jace and 2 Geist. Maybe cut a Ponder for a land?
I firmly think that 2 Ponder + 4 Brainstorm are mandatory to ensure the list runs smooth. While I'm not opposed to add the 22th land, I'd be more inclined to cut something else depending on the meta you're into : Jitte underperforms at times, Thoughseize n°2 or Pierce n°3 are not always stellar if you don't encounter frequent combo decks, etc.

catmint

02-02-2012, 09:28 AM

I think it is a common misbelief that you can just run some cantrips and lower the land count without giving it much thought... still wanting to support snapcaster & jace.

Using up mana to find lands often means not only playing a brainstrom for suboptimal value but also wasting a turn, because there is not enough mana left for what you would like to do.

Besides that what I find really tough in Esper is the fact that U,W & B are all equally important in the early game. In BUG green can usually come later for deed and goyf, but in esper you need all 3 colors early. That is also the reason why Hymn cannot be supported... but even playing 1 mana discard makes it kind of awkward, since you of course play white removal...

Would be interesting to hear some experiences with the manabase...

OrGy

02-03-2012, 04:48 AM

I think it is a common misbelief that you can just run some cantrips and lower the land count without giving it much thought... still wanting to support snapcaster & jace.

Using up mana to find lands often means not only playing a brainstrom for suboptimal value but also wasting a turn, because there is not enough mana left for what you would like to do.

Besides that what I find really tough in Esper is the fact that U,W & B are all equally important in the early game. In BUG green can usually come later for deed and goyf, but in esper you need all 3 colors early. That is also the reason why Hymn cannot be supported... but even playing 1 mana discard makes it kind of awkward, since you of course play white removal...

Would be interesting to hear some experiences with the manabase...
I'd like to adress your concern about the equivalency of UWB in the build, which I find a tad biased : Black (preboard) is significantly less important than the other colors in general.

Depending on the MU, White or Blue is prevalant in the early game : Against Aggro, White is the color you'd want to be available since most of our reliable answers go through white cards (SFM>Skull or simply STP). In that configuration, Black is clearly less usefull since neither Point discard nor Dark Confidant have a huge impact on their strategy.
Against Combo, Blue is the way to go (followed by black for point discard) enabling our early digging for countermagic. Same observation against Control.
The tricky situation is against Aggro-control, where you'll be hard pressed to prevent Jace hitting the board on your opponent side while adressing annoyances such as Tarmogoyf/Clique/KotR/SFM that will reduce you to shreds in short order. In those MU, I'd be more inclined to fetch for Blue real quick and dig for STP and counters while maintaining options on black for point discard on T3/T4.

I cannot stress enough that the deck curve is really low : 1 Repeal, 2 Jace, 2 Geist and 3 SCM are the only card really demanding more 3 mana or more (SoFaF/Batterskull are generally played for a discounted price).

Honestly, I'd be lying if I stated that we don't run into mana problems against decks such as Pox or Aggro Loam, but those deck are not really representative in my meta so while I occasionaly grin when I get paired against those nightmares, that doesn't happen a lot these times.

yutang

02-19-2012, 04:03 AM

Hey there

With the new creatures from Innistrad, I feel that this deck needs to be adjusted.

I really want to slot in 4x Tidehollow Sculler into this deck somewhere - do you think we can shift this toward a Vial list with bears such as Sculler etc?

Hanni

02-19-2012, 04:18 AM

I really want to slot in 4x Tidehollow Sculler into this deck somewhere - do you think we can shift this toward a Vial list with bears such as Sculler etc?

I'm not sure why every deck in the format feels the need to run Delver of Secrets. The creature is an aggressive 1 drop that fits best in aggressive decks. This deck is of a controllish nature. A 1cc 3/2 Flying creature is not what this deck needs. You want room for Sculler? Cut the Delver's for it.

yutang

02-19-2012, 04:54 AM

It was previously Snapcaster in that slot, which I found somewhat incorrect for this deck. I was thinking Delver would fit as a card that provides a clock, which becomes obnoxious with Mom.

I will test the Sculler version you suggested though.

Also, I want to cut the Skull for a sword of body and mind in the maindeck and replace the sofai in the side with skull. What do you reckon?

Hanni

02-19-2012, 06:02 AM

I mean, I don't know. Turn 1 Mom protects turn 2 SFM, which makes it pretty easy for this deck to drop a turn 3 Batterskull. Dropping a 4/4 vigilance lifelink is alot faster than dropping a Sword of X and Y and equipping it.

Also, the triggered abilities of Body and Mind are worse than Fire and Ice. The protection abilities are just as good in this metagame. If I were to cut the Batterskull, I'd probably do it for SoFI before SoBM, but that's just my opinion. Honestly though, you're almost always going to want to grab Jitte first anyway.

yutang

02-19-2012, 06:14 AM

That's exactly what I was thinking - I can't think of a circumstance where I would go for Batterskull before Jitte (especially where I have ground presence). And if I am fetching a second weapon, I would much prefer a Sword rather than the Skull. Maybe Jitte/SoFaI with Skull in the board would be best.

Also, I am quite happy with the Darkblast in the side, it is quite good against the many x/1 and x/2 creatures in the format atm. The Perish helps against Maverick too.

Another point is that I feel like Vindicate should be mainboard material due to its flexibility. But it just doesn't fit into the deck's strategy so it sits in the side atm as an enchantment/artifact/extra creature removal.

Edit: Just gave the deck one or two test runs. Hanni, replacing the Delver with Tidesculler is indeed a good call, it won me two games against Thopters. Maindeck SoFaI and Jitte were awesome.

Samara

02-28-2012, 04:50 PM

I've been playing this for a time and made A LOT of changes and playtesting... And ended up with this list... If you guys have ANY question about the cards choises I would be happy to explain why exactly are 4 ponder instead of 3 or 2... why there are no spell snares and dazes... and why there are no SoFnF... why 22 lands... why no wasteland... Still... only if you ask :laugh:

Dark Confidant never kills you... You realy don't need to worry about it... And you will never have 2 in the board neither.... that's because the opponent spend everything he has on DC... People knows what happens when you draw 2 cards a turn... they lose... So the first Bob Always Die... I mean, always.

You could only... and only... die for DC in a burn/ur burn match... still... it can be your path to victory on this matches too... specialy when your opponent uses goblin guide, that allows you to see how much you will take before blocking :laugh:....

In my build I use 8 top manipulations... as a way to improve bob's ability, having more blue cards, have more cantrip effects (less cards in deck), having more chance of getting the mana I want....and not drawing to much bob.

I realy like Bitterblossom... And used 2 for a long time... But I often found myself wanting to play any another card from my hand... It is realy good when it works but, it takes to damn long to work... Cast Bitterblossom... go... get hited in my face from a angry tarmogoyf/mangust/reliquary/jitte holder/sword holder.... Then is my turn.. o/... get one token... What?! killed EOT? I hate this game!...

Why You must play Geist over Vendillion....How can you pay 3 precious mana (intensive ones) to get a boltable creature that cannot block or hit more then a goyf if needed?

Playtesting the deck very much.... I realized that the deck want me to play stuff... is not a tempo deck, but it somehow runs that way... you just can't afford say "go" with 3 lands untaped... (IN MY BUILD)

Is your card 3 mana? Yes.
It hits more then 7? No
It in untargetable? No
It will die from bolt?! Yes
It draws 2 cards a turn for you? No?!
OMG... Is at least 3 "easy" mana? No... is 1UU... >.>... And is legendary... <o> ... Stop playing it!

If you want to run vendillion... it's ok!...but you will also run 4 Spellstutter, 2 mutavault, 1 jitte, 3 Spell Snare, 1 Riptide Lab...

Having 4 FoW MD is necessary for this "tempo-control plan" as you cannot afford to play daze and be wasted/stifled in the same game (would be great if you could, but you can't)...lose 2 land drops would ruin everything...

Still... having 4 bob works very well for me... strangely, that part because of batterskull.... When you have 4 bobs and 4 stoneforgers...:confused:

That's because the felling (for the opponent) of playing bob or stoneforger fetching batterskull is the same (That creature must die right now, or I will lose to it)

You most of the times will have 3 cards of this combination (bob/forgers) + 1 disrupt or 1 FoW... So you can easily chose who (bob or forger) will die depending on your gameplan...

I mostly will use IofK taking a removal, then cast bob... (he will be removed, somehow the opponent will kill him).... and then cast stoneforger getting batterskull (with a fow for backup)

You can also do pretty much the opposite... casting stoneforger, fetching for Jitte... knowing that you have 2 bobs and 1 mishra's in your hand.

Using 21 lands can be risky... That's why I run 22.... but using 4 bob is not... realy doesn't matter how many high cost cards do you have in your deck... bob will always die in 2 turns max... if he doesn't... you will win before he kills you... trust me.

If you stop to think about it:

22 cards in your deck are lands... more 30 are cards with 1-2CMC... What's the odds of revealing jace, draw a land...then reveal fow? Having 4 ponders, 4 brainstorms?.. Impossible... At worst, You can always regain some life from jitte. And everybody knows that Jace+Confidant = 3 cards a turn with no lifeloss.

I aprove the use of 3 snapcasters instead of 4... but I rather do 4 snapcasters then 5-6 removals/disrupt... The snapcaster will pretty much always be a "gatekepper of plowshares", eventualy only beeing a "one more inquistion"... But he can be both... and he is a professional jitte holder. :laugh:

Using 4 Inquistions instead of 2 and 2... is another reflex of the agressive "using bolt" tempo metagame, snapcaster ability and 4 ponders/4 brainstorms/4 bobs in the deck... But I will probabily change my mind (again) and use 2 siezes and 2 IofK.

Using basics maybe is not such a good idea...maybe I'm just tired of beeing wasted by RUG (was a little to much for me). But I can say with total confidance that fetching a Island in the first turn almost solves the problem of wastelands... But that's realy horrible when you have a IofK in your hand :cry:

...

And sorry for my English ^^... I'm still learning.

Hanni

02-28-2012, 07:03 PM

I think there are two approaches for this deck to take. One approach being more aggro, the other being more control. I think both are viable.

I still think Mother of Runes is absolutely amazing for this deck. Protecting SFM and Dark Confidant is still at an all-time premium, and giving evasion to establish Jitte counters isn't bad either.

My other list, going the more controlling side, is actually U/W, so I won't post it in this thread unless asked. It drops Mom and Confidant for Clique and Planeswalker's, and drops discard for Counterspells, basically.

Samara

02-28-2012, 07:26 PM

Hanni... I like the aproach.

In your build, I think cutting bob, for 2 jaces/2 cliques and adding one mishra/mutavault would be better.

I know the mother are good for protecting bob, but also think she might be of greater value for holding the opponent (with the stall trick) then having jaces for a long game plan... but never tested it

If you chose not run jaces of elspeths... And going aggro....you could be much more aggro...

You must use wastelands.

You could use stifles

You should use dazes over pierce/snare that are cards that like to play control.

You maybe should consider using Delvers?

Maybe even check the esper tempo thread? o.o

I mean... if we are going aggro... so... lets go aggro... right?

If we plan to mid-range... we need a strong late-game plan...something like 2 jace + 2 vindicate maybe?

I like your thought... maybe just a need more focus?.

Or i'm completely mistaken and didn't saw your plan? :laugh:

Hanni

02-28-2012, 08:07 PM

Hanni... I like the aproach.

In your build, I think cutting bob, for 2 jaces/2 cliques and adding one mishra/mutavault would be better.

I know the mother are good for protecting bob, but also think she might be of greater value for holding the opponent (with the stall trick) then having jaces for a long game plan... but never tested it

If you chose not run jaces of elspeths... And going aggro....you could be much more aggro...

You must use wastelands.

You could use stifles

You should use dazes over pierce/snare that are cards that like to play control.

You maybe should consider using Delvers?

Maybe even check the esper tempo thread? o.o

I mean... if we are going aggro... so... lets go aggro... right?

If we plan to mid-range... we need a strong late-game plan...something like 2 jace + 2 vindicate maybe?

I like your thought... maybe just a need more focus?.

Or i'm completely mistaken and didn't saw your plan?

Jace TMS isn't meant for my build. I only run 20 lands and only 4 Brainstorm's as cantrips, and I'm pretty heavily invested in nonbasic lands since I use all 3 colors frequently. Hitting 2UU for Jace wouldn't be consistent, and even less so against a deck like RUG Tempo. Jace is a great card, but my deck doesn't really need his abilities. Everything he can do for me is already pretty much covered by everything else; i.e I don't need the bounce, don't need the extra draw, and don't need an alt win condition. Jace doesn't carry a Jitte, but Confidant does, Mom doesn't protect Jace, but it does protect Confidant, etc.

Mother of Runes has many great uses, she need not be only used for one of them.

What do you mean by more aggro? I'm pretty content with my aggro package right now. I suppose arguments could be made for Geist or Clique, but I don't feel like I need them.

I don't understand why I need Wasteland's. This deck may not be heavy control like some other Control Blade lists, Landstill, or Countertop decks, but I still want a bunch of mana, more specifically 'colored mana'. SCM basically costs 3, Jitte costs 4 to cast and equip, etc. I'm running 3 colors, and supporting Wasteland in addition to that would require I cut business to fit them, not lands. What matches would Wasteland improve, vs how many times will drawing Wasteland's manascrew me?

If I wanted to play a Stifle/Waste deck, I wouldn't be running a slow controllish aggro package, I'd be running Delver's, Tombstalker's, Nimble's, Goyf's, and guys like that.

I really wish I could run Daze, and I did back when Misstep was around. My problem with Daze now is that it has fairly bad synergy with Snapcaster Mage, who benefits alot more from Spell Pierce. It pushes the deck into more of a controllish nature, and less aggressive, but that's not so bad. Bouncing a land back isn't that big a deal, but it could be the difference between casting and equipping Jitte a full turn sooner, I suppose. I may still revert back to Daze, but for now, I think Pierce/Snare offer better synergy with SCM.

*** Basically, I may revert back to Daze after I do more playtesting, but for now, I'm trying the 3/3 split of Pierce/Snare***

Delver's don't fit my gameplan. I'm not an aggressive beatdown deck. I'm basically a control deck that utilizes creatures as control spells, getting a dual purpose from them. It's the same philosophy as 2006 Hannifish, except now the creatures are a million times better. I mean don't get me wrong, I'm still an aggro/control deck, and I still plan on beating down with creatures, but Delver is a vanilla 3/2 flier... and that's not what my deck wants.

Esper Tempo is the exact opposite of my gameplan. Esper Tempo would be the deck that runs Stifle/Waste and Delver. Except, I think Esper Tempo is one of the worst color combinations for a tempo deck. I prefer U/B and U/B/r (Grixis) Tempo the most, for those shells. But this is a different deck.

A strong mid-late game plan is card advantage courtesy of Confidant/SFM/SCM. A strong mid-late game plan is control courtesy of Jitte, Batterskull, countermagic, discard, and removal. I already have a strong mid-late without Jace and Vindicate. Although I do run Vindicate in my sideboard.

I feel the deck is pretty focused, actually. What looks unfocused? I realize I'm running a 3/3 split on the countermagic, and a 2/1 split on the discard, but that doesn't really seem unfocused if you ask me... and the 4/1 split on the removal is because I wanted 5 Plow effects. Actually, I wanted 6 Plow effects, but I couldn't find room for the 6th.

Samara

02-29-2012, 05:04 PM

Ok I get it...

Is a control deck that uses creatures as tools for "control", what you meant by aggro was "winning with creatures"... That's complety diferent.

When you said you had a aggro oriented deck... I thought... so play the "aggresive tempo plan".

20 is not a correct land count from what you're planning. If you are interested in using fewer lands as a "have more cards" concept, then you should run 22-23... specialy if you are not running ponders...

And 4 would be Wastelands.

Why wasteland is necessary for your deck? There is actualy a lot of reasons... But what is realy important for you in wasteland is the "multirole" way you said your deck plays.

Wastelands is not just a tempo card, It can be used to remove important lands to disrupt the opponent game plan, that is even more true if you have access to the hand (with sieze/IofK)

Wastelands has a great power not only disrupting opponent game plans but also protecting yours... Sometimes the opponent would like to waste your Underground Sea, but he just cannot, now that you have your own wasteland, if he does that, he will lose 2 lands... or maybe not, but the decision will be yours...

STM, SCM, Bob, uses 1 nom colored mana in theyr costs, you should be glad of it ^^.

What I'm trying to say is "If your deck has a great potential of playing both control or more aggro plan, depending on your opponent plays, wasteland would help you to control this aspect... To limit your opponent speed, disrupt his plays along with a more control plan... or removing key lands, or opponent's waste if tapped protecting your own manabase.

You don't need to run wastelands... but... if you choose to not run wastelands... that's one more reason to run jace/elspeth... If you are NOT running high costed very powerfull cards (and your opponent SURE IS) then you would probabily like to trade theyr forth land for yours forth land. Get it?

What I realy think is unfocused is that you are using HEAVY control cards in a gameplan cards mixed in a way that you don't take the maximum potential from your own cards.

Like --- Waste, Daze, Delver, Stifle, 19-20 Lands = Very fast agressive deck... You don't need to run ALL this cards to have a agressive deck, but using all then together would maximize value.

Other Way --- Pierce, Snare, Jace, Moorland Haunt, Mother of runes, 4th caster, more removals also work very well together.

But if you chose to NOT go Control Way... and NOT go Real Agressive way... you are way behind of these two... You just can't be trully powerfull while not beeing truly focused.

I realy like the idea of having a deck that can be realy agressive or realy controlish depending on the match... but for this, you need some cards that will give you this versatility of plans... And wasteland is the best one.

If exists a card that helps you to have a mid-range shiftable strategy deck... is Wasteland.

And they will not be a problem if you don't run Hymn to Tourach or Vendillion (please don't run it)

--------------------

I'll finish this later.

Hanni

02-29-2012, 05:54 PM

Just because I'm playing a "control deck with aggro," doesn't mean I need a high land count. There seems to be alot of misconceptions concerning wordings. My deck runs a very low cc count, which is not only a design constraint put into place by Dark Confidant, but also by Snapcaster Mage. Even before Snapcaster, the general shell has always been this way. The deck functions off of 2-3 lands, and while it prefers to have 3-4, landfloods are just as bad as landscrews.

I can see justification for running Wasteland as a control tool, but I cannot think of many situations where I would rather have Wasteland than one of the other business spells that I'm already running.

While my creatures may have 1 colorless in their cost, and my equipments cost colorless, the fact is that I want access to all 3 colors as early in the game as possible. Wasteland might pay for the colorless on Confidant, but if I fetch a Tundra because I have SFM and a Pierce/Snare/Brainstorm in hand, I'm not going to be able to cast Confidant, for example.

My build doesn't need Jace TMS. People seem to just cram him into everything, just like they do with Delver and Snapcaster, without really evaluating the deck and determing what it needs. Everything that Jace can do for this deck, my creature base does better, without needing 2UU. I'm not saying that Jace TMS would be useless in here, because that's far from the truth, but I'm saying he's unecessary. Adding more top heavy spells like Jace has bad synergy with Dark Confidant, and even Snapcaster Mage.

I still don't get what you mean by focused. The deck is focused. It's an aggro/control deck that plays a slow defensive control game with tons of card advantage and disruption, that beats with grizzly bears + equipment. It's the same gameplan as my 2006 UWb Fish deck, except with better 2012 spells. Why do I need Jace to be a good control deck? Why do I need Stifle/Waste to be a good aggro deck? This gameplan is older than both of those strategies, and is just as effective now as it was then, if not more-so.

The deck has plenty of game against control decks, plenty of game against combo, and plenty of game against aggro. I'm not sure how I'm unfocused. The deck has solid matchups all the way across the board, with no "horrible" matchups. What matchups are going to improve by running Jace and/or Wasteland, and what matchups are going to get worse by running Jace and/or Wasteland?

---

On an unrelated note, I'm probably going to cut 3 Spell Pierce from the maindeck for 3 Daze, despite having worse synergy with Snapcaster. The lack of Daze was very noticeable in playtesting, and I definitely want them back in the deck. I'll find a way to fit the Spell Pierce's into the sideboard or something. Oh, and I'm probably gonna cut the maindeck Path for SoFI or SoFF maindeck, and run 2 Path's in the sideboard.

Samara

02-29-2012, 06:40 PM

Daze in a nice step in aggro direction... Now jaces are not so good. And now Wasteland is even better.

Still... You don't need a high land count... 22 is a "few lands control" land count. But 20 lands is very wrong. You could explain run 21 if you also run 2-3 ponders.

If you chose to run 22 lands, use 4 snapcasters is ok.

If you chose to run 21 without ponders or divining top (I rather ponders, cause of Fow)... Would be better run 3 snapcasters.

If you chose to run 20 lands. Run 21+ anyways. :laugh: Sorry... please, add more lands.

I truly understand how you think as I have a strong felling of using cards that I want too, instead of using what I realy should... But i'm already working on that.

One realy good way of thinking is "everybody is playing this card"... It's not possible that I'm the only good magic player... So, I must be mistaken.

Hanni

02-29-2012, 06:48 PM

Still... You don't need a high land count... 22 is a "few lands control" land count. But 20 lands is very wrong. You could explain run 21 if you also run 2-3 ponders.

Why is 20 lands wrong? Because I'm calling my deck a "control" deck? Have you even bothered playtesting the list to know that 20 lands is wrong? Cause it's not. I used to run 17 lands in my old UWb Fish deck, albeit with 4 Serum Visions, with the exact same mana curve, and it worked just fine. -4 Visions, +3 land is a pretty big upgrade to the land count for a deck that curves out at 2-3.

I truly understand how you think as I have a strong felling of using cards that I want too, instead of using what I realy should... But i'm already working on that.

Except I have about 4 years of playing UWb Fish to know how the deck works. Regardless of new and better cards seeing print, the fundamentals of the deck are exactly the same. I'm not making a case against Jace and Wasteland because I have strong feelings, I'm making a case against them because they are not what the deck wants/needs.

One realy good way of thinking is "everybody is playing this card"... It's not possible that I'm the only good magic player... So, I must be mistaken.

Because everybody IS jamming Delver's into non-aggressive decks, jamming Snapcaster's into hyper-agressive decks, and fitting Jace into nearly every blue deck without questioning it. I'm not some scrub who's never played with Jace before. I have many different control decks that I play that run Jace, I know how good the guy is. I also know that he's not meant for my build of UWb Esperblade.

EDIT: Also, keep in mind that my build is not the only good and/or viable build of Esperblade. There's plenty of room to take the deck in directions either further down the control spectrum, or further up the aggressive spectrum.

I'm also very partial to my build because it's almost a direct port of a deck I spent years tuning to perfection (UWb Fish), with some amazing new upgrades (SFM/SCM).

Samara

02-29-2012, 06:56 PM

By the way... Adding wasteland would pretty much only improve every match... And only very eventualy would screw you... If you are afraid of that, 2-3 wasteland is a "secure" add to the deck, that would only improve the already good matches, while having a very strong "random" moment power, geting rid of burnwillow, maze, wasteland.

Jace would improve all heavy control matches, again 1-2 is the "secure add" as it can be easily shuffled back or pinched to force of will if unecessary.

You saw my list?

Hanni

02-29-2012, 07:06 PM

I'm done having this back and forth discussion, sorry. In the right shell, I'm sure Wasteland and Jace are great adds. In my shell, they aren't. No one build of "Stoneblade" is ever going to be "the best" because it's too customizable, and they each have stronger and weaker matchups against different decks, which is variable to the metagame. Let's just agree to disagree on this one.

Samara

02-29-2012, 07:08 PM

I never played a UWb Fish before, but I had played eva green, then bug, then blade, then esperblade. So I'm very familiar with the cards of the list.

Anyways...Sorry If I ofended you as I pointed inexperience of your part. If you do realy knows 20 is the absolutily correct land count for this build. Then I'm misstaken.

MO is 21 lands without jace could be correct. That's because (as you said) the deck needs mana for equipments and snapcaster mage. Isn't a zoo that plays easily with 2 lands.

You could run 21 lands beeing 3 wastelands.

yutang

02-29-2012, 07:12 PM

@Spell Pierce vs Daze
I agree with Hanni re his Spell Pierce v Daze assessment – Daze is just too good in this deck to cut for Pierce. Pierce is good, but not as good as Daze. I see Pierce as a sideboard card as we dont have MD space.

@Snapcaster
I don't see why we run Snapcaster in this deck over Tidehollow Sculler.

Mother of Rune is in this deck to protect our grizzlies which typically have abilities which benefit us as long they remain in play. For example, Dark Confidant, other Moms and SFM. Snapcaster becomes expendable once it you use it to 'flash back' another card. Tidehollow allows you to gain advantage as long as it remains in play. We want to maximise the number of stay in play and gain advantage creatures in this deck. The point of this deck is for grizzlies to remain in play so that we can leverage that advantage.

@Geist of St Traft
Awesome in this deck, you should try it out. It works as a fantastic finisher and as a great sandbag against board wipes (which this deck is weak to).

@Wasteland
I tried running a 4-of but it's a bit too much, especially when you open into hands with two lands: 1 Wasteland and 1 coloured. I feel that 3 should be the right number.

Wastelands have always been good as a catch-all for me. It also helps keep the opponent in the early-mid game which is where we want to be. We don't need too many land drops (we can survive on 2-3 land).

Basics (especially basic plains) have been a bit miserable for me. The coloured requirements of this deck are quite strenuous and you definitely should have duals in its place instead. I would still retain 1 Island for Path to Exile.

19 has been the right mix for me (would be 18+2 Ponders but Geists at 3cc make mana requirements harder) with Ponder as a lone cantrip. There is no need for additional mana as I am not hardcasting Batterskull. Jitte is not too bad re equipping. My curve essentially ends at 3 with a mix of free/cheap spells. I also do not run Snapcaster.

@Jace 2.0
Great card but inappropriate for this deck. Needs at least 22 lands to run him and in that case, we would be cutting into business. Wastelands with Jace is a bad idea due to colour requirements, we are not BUG.

@sideboard
Darkblast – awesome vs Mav (reusable removal against manadorks) and no need to waste Swords.
Meddling Mage and Spell Pierce – been good so far vs combo/random stuff
Surgical Extraction – solid choice
Bitterblossom – good vs control, haven't quite tested it yet but seems promising
Perish – insane vs Mav and aggro though I am considering switching to Submerge. I like the flexibility of Perish against NO decks though
Vindicate – great catchall, but may be switched to Disenchant later. I just like Vindicate as 2x Path to Exile and 2x Disenchant in 2 slots, which saves on sideboard space.
Batterskull – against tribal, though I don't know why its really here

20 lands with 19 colored sources is safer than 21 with 17 colored sources though. But hey, maybe I'll playtest with some Wasteland's later just for the hell of it.

Piceli89

02-29-2012, 07:19 PM

Hanni, keep in mind that Maze of Ith or Grove of the Burnwillows really hurt a Stoneforge based deck in the long run (ask every UWx Stoneblade player), thus some Wastelands are, unfortunately, a necessary evil.

Hanni

02-29-2012, 07:25 PM

I don't see why we run Snapcaster in this deck over Tidehollow Sculler.

That's a good question, actually. I see pros and cons to both cards.

In the case of SCM, with pinpoint discard, you can basically gain Tidehollow's effect except the card is discarded permanently regardless if SCM dies. The difference is that SCM is more versatile than just a discard effect... it can recast Brainstorm, recast Swords to Plowshares, and recast Spell Snare (primarily). I've even had games where I hit 7 mana and flashback'd Force of Will. What I like the most is the fact that even if it dies, I still got value out of it. It's similar to SFM in that respect.

Tidehollow Sculler, on the other hand, is really strong too. Turn 1 Mom, turn 2 Sculler with Daze/Force backup disrupts the opponent like a motherfucker. Follow that up with some more countermagic, discard, Confidant, or SFM, and it's really hard to lose most games.

So at this point, I don't know. I'd definitely like to test them both extensively before I weigh my opinions on which one is better. At this point though, I'd like to continue testing with SCM first.

@Geist of St Traft
Awesome in this deck, you should try it out. It works as a fantastic finisher and as a great sandbag against board wipes (which this deck is weak to).

To me, Geist is just a beater. The hexproof is nice, but I'm already built around protecting my guys. Without an equip or Mother, he's not swinging into blockers without dying, just the same as any of my other grizzlies. He's definitely a nicer clock on a clean board, but he's pretty lousy defensively. In most cases, I'd rather run Vendilion Clique, I think.

Basics (especially basic plains) have been a bit miserable for me. The coloured requirements of this deck are quite strenuous and you definitely should have duals in its place instead. I would still retain 1 Island for Path to Exile.

I run a 1/1/1 split of the basics, which have been working just fine for me. Then again, I'm also running 19 colored sources and only 1 colorless land, so that may be why.

Hanni, keep in mind that Maze of Ith or Grove of the Burnwillows really hurt a Stoneforge based deck in the long run (ask every UWx Stoneblade player), thus some Wastelands are, unfortunately, a necessary evil.

Maze of Ith is not common enough to warrant maindeck Wasteland on their own, and I run 2 Pithing Needle and 2 Vindicate in the board that can answer them. Maze of Ith does shut down an equipment spell, but it doesn't stop my other guys from attacking, and it's pretty feasible to drop a Skull and a Jitte in the same game.

I'm not trying to say that Wasteland is bad in Stoneblade decks. I just don't think they fit my specific build of this deck, and I don't think they are a necessary evil either.

Mother of Runes can circumvent Grove to some degree, and I've cut the 1-of Path for a SoFI anyway.

Maybe I'll try to fit in 2 Wasteland's or something for testing purposes. I don't want to focus on a mana denial plan, but 2 should be plenty to use as utility.

If I end up eating my own words and Wasteland turns out to be better than I thought (my testing with them comes from my prior experience with UWb Fish, and not newage Esperblade, as I haven't tested them in my build yet), then I'll man up and admit my mistake.

I do know for a fact that Jace isn't mean for my build, though. I stand adamant about that.

I'm thinking 4 colorless sources on 20 lands with my color requirements is going to be really bad. I really don't want to add another land, and the only spell I'd consider cutting from the maindeck would be the SoFI, but I may end up doing that if the manabase falls apart on me. I'm doubtful that this is going to be better than a list with more colored sources, but who knows. Or I could just cut a Wasteland for another Scrubland, which is what I'll probably end up doing instead.

EDIT: Eh, gonna try the 21 land route I guess, cutting the maindeck SoFI for the Scrubland. Let's see how this does after a few dozen games on MWS. Hopefully my opponent's are all packing 4 Wasteland so I can really test out the durability of the manabase.

Samara

02-29-2012, 08:32 PM

If you don't want to add another land you could easily trade one SCM and the 21th land for 2 ponders... Would help improve consistence as a whole, while having sinergy with bob, helping you to shuffle away the possible flood that seens so bad in this archetype.

I'm saying that cause I'm used to see decks using 3-4 ponders and 18-19 lands. At worst is a blue card that realy helps combined with brainstorm and can be pinched by fow. A very good topdeck also.

Hanni

02-29-2012, 09:05 PM

I used to run 8 cantrips in the deck for a long time. I'm just not so sure that I want to run more than 4 Brainstorm anymore.

My thing with the cantrips is that I don't want to be cantripping too much early unless I have to, cause I want to be dropping guys early and tapping out (main reason I added Dazes back in). By the time I have free mana to start cantripping, I don't need the dig as much. The massive amounts of card advantage replace that function, IMO. Don't get me wrong, the extra cantrips are still really good, but I haven't been in too many positions where I would have wanted Ponder.

As far as mitigating lifeloss with Confidant goes, I've been doing just fine with the lifegain from Batterskull and Jitte to not need the extra manipulation.

I'll continue to test this Wasteland build. I've only logged one game on MWS so far, against Mono White Stax, and I went 2-1. That's a pretty damn manabase hateful deck right there, and I held my own pretty well with the 21 land list I posted above. I'll keep trying it out. Like I said, back in the day when I ran UWb Fish, Wasteland wasn't that good in this deck. Times have changed, and I can be stubborn sometimes. As long as the manabase runs fine and I don't run into serious colorscrew issues alot, I'll stick to the 21 land manabase with 3 Wasteland's. I do like that Wasteland's make my Daze's stronger for longer, so who knows.

Samara

02-29-2012, 09:32 PM

Don't get me wrong... I hate the way wasteland alone changed the way decks were suppose to be build.

Still... I don't run wastelands in my build. I was so noisy about it cuz it's is realy gold in the way your deck plays. (that's why we are here isn't it? o.o )

(About Cantrips: I see that too Hani... sometimes they get me realy angry (ponder: shuffle, draw ponder)... But is realy a strong top deck, and it "allows" to play with fewer lands, making easier to get to 4 lands fast and stay there.)

Also for me is a nice way to run 4 bob and 7 4-5CMC cards, while still having most of it.

Exclusively about Hani's

But for you would be 2 ponders maximum... for a very diferent reason.... for you it could be the aswer for the flood/few lands problem... just like RUG does.

About Tidehollow and SCM : Tidehollow is mana intensive and isn't blue... that counts in a deck that runs only 14 blue cards and runs wastes (now he runs \o/). Maybe a combination of 2 tidehollow and 3 snapcaster? Would complement nicely your disruption package. Lowering your curve also.

And with 3 Daze MD and only 14 blue cards...perhaps move 1 Fow to SB?

A lot of things to playtest and think about it.

Hanni

02-29-2012, 09:43 PM

Well in a build like yours with 2 Geist and 2 Jace, I can see the merits of running Ponder's, because you'll want to dig for that 3rd and 4th land sometimes. You also don't have Mother of Runes to protect your Dark Confidant, so it's less consistent at drawing cards with him than it is in my build, making the cantrips even better for you. You also run a lighter creature density (the 2 Geists are midgame creatures, and you only run 8 2cc creatures, so you'll be able to cast Ponder early game more often than me).

I'm not really sure I like the Geist's in your build, though. Without Mother of Runes for protection, and only 4 Swords to Plowshares with no Snapcaster Mage, they won't be able to swing very often (any creature with power 2 or greater that blocks it will kill it). You pretty much need a clean board or an equipment to really be able to do much with it. It's lousy on defense, and doesn't bring any card advantage or disruption to the table. I think Geist is a better fit in Esper Tempo, to be honest.

I know you said you didn't like Clique, but the guy flies over blockers and adds some more disruption to your deck. I'd run him over Geist, anyway.

Or maybe you could cut the 2 Geist and 1 Ponder for 3 Spell Snare? You only run 4 Swords, 4 Inquisition, and 4 Brainstorm to flashback with Snapcaster right now (well, there's Ponder too, but that's really not what you want to be flashing back).

Anyway, everything else looks pretty good.

Samara

03-01-2012, 10:49 AM

I have 12 2cmc creatures o.o...

well... what you said about geist in true, is lousy on defense... Still I think 4 swords + 4 snapcaster are suficient to make a clean board against most decks. They are a new add to the deck... if 4 swords+4 SCM are not enoght for him to swing, then they will probabily become spell snares (they were a few days ago)

Yes, dark confidant often dies earlier that I would like it...

But, I don't think running mother of runes is the right way in this deck, I rather use him as a auxiliar card adv engine (with jace)... as DC will, most of times be killed, but if not, it can win the game for me.

About snares... I was running 3... but I most times could not afford to "not play" something..

The problem is....with that much cantrip and cards that like to casted early (including jace in 4th turn) , the spell snare is often removed by force or used only in late game. That's why I cutted it.

Still If I miss then very much I will probabily -1 ponder -1 something not geist for 2 Spell snares.

I would rather play dazes if losing one land drop won't hurt so much...

Hanni

03-01-2012, 11:00 AM

What I meant by 8 2cc creatures was that you only have 8 you want to cast on turn 2 (or with only 2 lands in play). SCM might be a 2cc creature, but he's really a 3cc creature, since the flashback spell is like a comes into play effect with a kicker cost of 1.

However, my comment about Ponder in your build vs my build was pretty stupid, since we run the same 2cc creatures with the only difference being that I run Mom and you run Geist. I guess without a turn 1 Mom, Ponder gives you more turn 1 plays. That comment makes a lot more sense than the way I worded it before.

EDIT: I've made a few more changes to the Wasteland build I'm testing. I cut a Scrubland for the 4th Daze to up my blue spell count and to be more aggressive with the Waste/Daze plan, and I've switched the Snares to Pierces, which makes a lot more sense with that approach. I've also swapped the SB Paths with Ghastly Demise, since Path has bad synergy with my Wastelands.

Samara

03-01-2012, 03:05 PM

I like your changes Hanni

I have other problems...

If we look.... what could easily be cuted is : 1 SCM, 1 Ponder, 2 Geist.

But if we cut geists... I would have to add another card with a nice clock, or something that could replace this effect, like, creating a stronger control lock... something that makes easier to end the game.

One thing I did notice is that Spell Snares (while beeing realy powerful) was siting in my hand, removed by force, or used in only in late game.

Considering so, that we have 4 Slots. What to add?

Maybe only 2 snares is the right choise... for mid game. To add value to SCM just as I did before... But if I add 2 snares, doesn't make sense cuting the 4th SCM.

Maybe 2 unearth in that slot could be strong with bobs and SCMs? While solving the problem of board position, replacing geist reason (kill the opponent) (Again, so why cuting 4th SCM?)

The problem is that I always have cards to play (specialy after adding 4 ponders), so I never want to "not tap out for snare". I rather cast bob on 2nd turn.

Playing Daze i'm sure you understand how damn Slow (and damn powerful) can be playing with spell snares.

I'm thinking about

Simply -2 Geist +2 Unearth

Or -1 Ponder -2 Geist -1 "something that I don't know that should not be SCM" +2 Snares +2 unearth.

What you guys think about these?

Samara

03-01-2012, 04:25 PM

I thinked better about unearths... and i'm convince it would be useful in much more ocasions than geists... I could revive my bobs and sfm... but the most awsome would be snapcaster mage... meaning that I could revive 2 creatures with one unearth... or, what is even more exciting... turn a unearth into a snapcaster then swords...

While lowering curve and still having more board presence.

Hanni

03-01-2012, 10:25 PM

Unearth sounds like it would be really good in control matchups that don't use exiling effects. If not a maindeck card, it definitely deserves consideration as a sideboard card.

As far as what to cut in your build... remember that with Geist, your sitting at 20 blue spells, which is right about where you want to be.

I'd probably cut 2 Geist and 1 Ponder for 3 Spell Snare. That way, your blue spell count stays the same, you get some more countermagic, and another juicy flashback target for Snapcaster Mage. I mean, I don't see why you need a finisher when you have Jitte, Batterskull, and Jace TMS as finishers already.

---

On an unrelated note, I've done some more playtesting with the Wasteland version and made some more changes. I still prefer the Wasteland-less build for its more stable manabase, but both builds have performed well in testing. Anyway, here's what Wasteland build looks like now:

The manabase does have somes issues, but that's the cost of adding Wasteland instead of colored sources I guess. I really don't want to go past 20 lands because my curve is so low, and I need to maintain my blue spell count for Force of Will.

The 4/4/3 Wasteland/Daze/Pierce combo is really aggressive early game, which is nice. I also get to keep my 4/3 Mom/Discard package, which has been really good at protecting a turn 2 SFM/Confidant.

I cut the Moorland Haunt because I felt that 4 Wasteland was better than a 3/1 split, and I don't want 5 colorless lands. Haunt was awesome in early game testings, specifically against control decks with sweepers like Deed. However, with the tempo package + discard, I'm hoping that I can keep an opponent from resolving them. As long as I don't overcommit, this should be a solid matchup. Postboard Needle and Unearth can come in as additional support.

I Swapped the sideboard Path's for Ghastly Demise because Path has bad synergy with my Wasteland plan. It also gives me an out to Iona on white, however relevant that is these days. I cut the SoFI, since there really is no matchup I'd need to bring them in against, and put a singleton Unearth in its place.

Windux

03-02-2012, 09:37 AM

Hanni I thought about nearly the same:

3 Thoughtseize instead of 2/1.
Spell Snare over Spell Pierce - Makes you more aggresive in the early game with Confi and SFM. SCM and Mother will give you more range later anyway.
Maybe Delver instead of Mothers.

Delver makes the deck more aggroish and will eat burn/removal early just like Mother. Mother can protect your Confi and SFM, but Mother will be taken out anyway as soon as possible. Delver just gives you more pressure, which is great, I think. In a combo-heavy meta I would prefer Mother, because of the possibility to play Hatebears sideboard.

rancOr_

03-02-2012, 09:48 AM

Lingering Souls is really good for this deck..

Hanni

03-02-2012, 12:10 PM

I don't understand why Lingering Souls would be good for this deck. Paying 2W for two 1/1 fliers isn't bad, but they offer absolutely no utility. For 3 mana, I could get a 3/1 flier with a disruptive ability. The flashback for 1B is cool, but I do have SCM for flashing back stuff already.

Souls is an awesome card in a deck like B/w Deaguy, in a list with Bitterblossom, Sorin, and Elspeth. The only synergy it has in this deck is equipment carrying, which the deck already has those. Unearth seems more useful to me than Souls.

@ Windux

I like the 2/1 split for now. The lifeloss on Thoughtseize can be relevant, especially if I'm flashing it back for a second use. It's also not as good as Inquisition against aggressive red decks like Burn, U/R Delver, Sligh, and Zoo.

I spent hours debating with myself about Snare vs Pierce, trying to evaluate the two for my build. Ultimately, I found Spell Pierce to be better overall. I want to protect my guys, and Pierce does that, and Snare doesn't. Pierce still hits 2cc noncreature spells, too. People expect Snare these days, and often build around it. Snare doesn't counter a Qasali cast off of a GSZ, but Pierce does. The only 2cc creatures I'd want to counter are the same exact ones that I'm running myself, where Pierce is still a great card for the mirror... although the 1cc discard and free countermagic is even better. I'm running 4 Waste and 4 Daze already, and Spell Pierce has great synergy with that plan.

Even with the tempo package I'm running, I'm not a tempo deck. Traditional tempo wants to disrupt and then beat and kill the oppononet before they stabilize. This deck is different. I want to use my tempo elements to dominate the early game so that I can resolve my card advantage fishy creatures, and get so far ahead of my opponent in resources that they can never get back into the game. Its a very different style, and it values being more defensive early vs being more aggressive, as far as aggro beats are concerned (being aggressive with disruption is a different story). Mother of Runes fits this plan like a glove, while Delver is out of place. However, I will test with Delver in place of Mom's sometime later, just to be thorough in testing out everything.

rancOr_

03-03-2012, 09:41 AM

The fact that it dodges spell snare and REB is alrdy pretty huge and its one card for FOUR tokens with flying. Its best fit in a intuition shell though, I see u have not tested that card yet.

I tested Delvers and found out, they were great! But I wanted a big body in this meta, where x/2 can be burned out easily. So I cutted them for Jotun Grunts, which are out of Bolt-range and can weaken Mongoose and Tarmogoyf. Also, it's quite useful against Reanimator and Dredge (only preboard out!). It takes care of P-Fire.
So it's over Delver ;)
And then I just thought, if I cut Delvers because of their power, I have to put in Mother.

Hanni

03-03-2012, 01:20 PM

Ah, Jotun Grunt. That brings back memories. :)

I suppose if your meta is heavy with decks using the graveyard, he'd a be a perfect fit. Decent p/t for the cost, and can totally hose some graveyard strategies.

Also, I'm not saying Delver couldn't be good in the Wasteland builds, but the way Esperblade is designed, I prefer Mother of Runes. Mother of Runes protects Dark Confidant, who goes on to draw me alot of cards. Mother of Runes protects SFM, who then cheats a Batterskull into play. Mother of Runes herself provides virtual card advantage, which is exactly what I want.

whosyourdaddy

03-09-2012, 01:13 PM

I've won a little local tournament with this new list I've been testing lately:

Having mixed results with my previous mother of runes+bob+clique list I put the above list together and so far it was great! The idea with this list is to completely ignore my opppnent's removal by having creatures that do their job when they etb(which was the reason to cutu batterskull). Not having to ptotect my creatures from removal lets me focus on ruining my opponent's gameplan. Since the deck's clock is patheticly slow i decided to drop all conditional counters, that I traditionally used to run to minimize the risk of drawing dead lategame. Anyway back to the tournament, this is my brief report (not exactly detailed since I didn't take any notes).

round 1 vs LED faithless looting dredge

G1: My opp wins the roll and decides to play, but surprisingly does nothing on his t1 and passes. I go t1 Inquisition taking a LED and gaining a virtual timewalk. FoW takes care of his topdecked discard outlet and he is stuck for 2 or 3 turns while I manage to assemble bitterblossom + jitte. He misplays badly not sacking his narcomoeba to therapy with 3 brigdes in yard and letting me untap and stp it. I kill my faerie with Jitte to remove brigdes and keep swinging ftw not seeing a single zombie token.
SB: -3 spell snare -2 edict +3 e. tutor +1 cage +1 [can't remember]
G2: I mull to 6 and see a cage(lucky bastard!). He sees no answers...
2-0

G1: Game goes long since none of us manages to resolve/stick a threat. I kill a total of 2 delvers and 2 tombstalkers, drop to about 4 life before bitterblossom joins jitte on my side of the table. 3rd stalker resolves but cannot handle my faeries.
SB: -1 spell snare +1 edict
G2: Is the exact copy of G1 exept torpor orb shows itself finally(and gets spell snared). I kill another 3 tombstalkers before faeries with SoFaI and jitte seal the deal. Dreadnought doesn't show up even once.
2-0

round 3 vs RUG delver

I cannot remember much of it exept:
G1: Waste, stifle, daze, spell snare delver, double 6/7 goyf, bolt, I die before even trying to resist. Goyf laughs at my tribal enchantment in yard.
SB: -3 spell snare +1 edict +2 duress
G2: Was a pretty close game. At some point i manage to find an edict for his goose, duress his counter before resolving a blossom and some equipment. I feel like multiple discard won me this game(it took krosan grip out).
G3: My friend gets extremly unlucky, mulls to 4 and gets easily overwhelmed. In a way i feel sorry for him, yet I'm relieved since it was a matchup i feared most.
2-1

round 4 vs UR burn

G1: I go: t1 inquisition, t2 bitterblossom, t3 jitte with force backup. There's nothing he can do from this point.
SB: -4 FoW +4 duress
G2: I see no fetches or basics and keep playing duals. I get 6 dmg from price of progress, but my discard gets smash to smithereens. I take the risk and play the 4th dual to cast a jitte and have mana open for sprite. Another price hits me for 8. I get 4 counters on jitte before a snap- backed smash to smithereens kills it and drops me to 6. I drop SoFaI and kill in 2 swings before my opponent manages to find those last 6 points of damage.
2-0

Summing up, I'm really satisfied with the list, especially being removal-proof and having a srtong lategame. Bitterblossom was mvp all day, tho I guess without equipment isn't that impressive on its own. Downside i guess, is i wasn't able to put my opponents under a serious clock, which makes me worry a bit about my combo matchup. Having 6 removal mb was pretty awsome. I,m not yet sold on diabolic edict but I'm pretty sure I want a non-targeting effect, innocent blood and engeneered explosives come to mind. Enlightened tutor sideboard was an experiment and I didn't really have a chance to test it( i expected enchantress and mud in my meta). I'm still trying to think of good targets. Engeneered explosives, vedalken shackles, circle of protection: red? Any ideas? Any thoughts on the list will be appreciated.

fallenphoenix

03-11-2012, 08:50 AM

I don't understand why Lingering Souls would be good for this deck. Paying 2W for two 1/1 fliers isn't bad, but they offer absolutely no utility. For 3 mana, I could get a 3/1 flier with a disruptive ability. The flashback for 1B is cool, but I do have SCM for flashing back stuff already.

Exactly my thoughts, but then I watched EsperBlade with Lingering Souls at GP:Indy and it was just crushing, especially in the Mirror and vs Delver.

It just gives you 4 tokens over 1-2 turns, whereas BB takes 4 turns for the same amount of tokens and is a much worse topdeck, not even considering the lifeloss. Not getting countered by Snare or destroyed by Nature's Claim/Disenchant is also pretty big.
And of course it's also pretty much immune to all the spot removal running around.

This is definitely battling for slots with Geist/Mirran Crusader/Clique and it's not to be underestimated.

bruizar

03-11-2012, 09:18 AM

Lingering Souls is being discussed by sheldon and rich on ggslive. I'd tune in right now to see it in action.

Rizso

03-11-2012, 01:40 PM

Martell got a single intuition in his deck with 4 lingering souls.

Blitzbold

03-11-2012, 02:23 PM

Combining those two with 1 or 2 Cabal Therapy would be nutty. Intuition for Lingering Souls, Therapy, Therapy is GG in quite some matchups.

from Cairo

03-11-2012, 04:38 PM

Martell got a single intuition in his deck with 4 lingering souls.

I like the construction of his list. The proactive discard to gain information on the opponent's game plan and the use of extra cantrips in Ponder seems really good. Lingering Souls is such a great value card and seems beastly in the mirror. Would like to see this list take the GP down.

Hanni

03-11-2012, 04:48 PM

Intuition seems interesting in general, in a deck with Snapcaster Mage.

Hanni

03-11-2012, 09:02 PM

Esperblade wins the Grand Prix!

JJ-JKidd

03-11-2012, 09:52 PM

Lingering Souls ftw

Hanni

03-11-2012, 10:15 PM

After watching Martels matches in the Top 8, I was not that impressed with Lingering Souls in this deck. The card is great, to be sure, but had he run Mother of Runes instead, I think it would have been better against both the Maverick matchups and the Delver matchup.

How many times did he tutor up a Batterskull, only to have his SFM get killed?

EDIT: I do agree that Lingering Souls is a much stronger option than Geist of Saint Traft, at any rate.

Koby

03-11-2012, 11:20 PM

Lingering soul is the way you ignore the entirety of Macerick. Try can't handle flyers and isnonenif the decks rougher match ups. Flyers with Jitte is in te same vain of bitter blossom. The advantage comes in that it also gives you more tokens to keep the attackers at bay from your planes walkers

Hanni

03-11-2012, 11:47 PM

In a build with Jace TMS like Martell's list, I agree. He's alot more midrangey, and so spending 5 mana to make four 1/1 fliers isn't a bad plan.

I don't think Lingering Souls belongs in a build like mine that runs Dark Confidant instead of Jace, and already runs Mother of Runes for protection/evasion.

I don't think either build is strictly better, either. I'm partial to my build because it's more reminiscent of UWb Fish, and I like how much more aggressive it is in the earlier turns of the game with Wasteland and Daze, and of course Mom + Confidant vs Souls + Jace, but I think both builds are Tier 1 caliber decks.

Also, as Tom said, Intuition for three Lingering Souls is pretty sick, given that the flashback cost is so cheap. Between the one hard cast and the three flashbacks, that's eight 1/1 flyers you can have access to.

Hanni

03-12-2012, 10:06 AM

Intuition for 3 Lingering Souls is definitely powerful. Eight 1/1 fliers is a lot of board presence. My only concern is that it seems a bit slow at 12 total mana, costing an inital 5 for the first two 1/1 fliers.

In his game loss to Delver (don't remember if it was g1 or g2), his opponent kept him off the mana he needed to cast Lingering Souls. He also lost his SFM to a Bolt (which tutored for Batterskull). I can't help but think that Mother of Runes could have won him that one.

Justin

03-12-2012, 03:18 PM

Intution into Lingering Souls is pretty efficient for what it gives you. You note that you get 8 1/1 flyers for 12 mana. But that's just as good as the Sword of the Meek/Thopter Foundry combo.

If you do the Sword of the Meek/Thopter Foundry combo, you have to find two cards to make it work instead of just one (Intuition). You pay two for the sword, two for the foundry, and then one for each 1/1 flyer you make. So it get up to 8 1/1 flyers, you have to invest 12 mana--the exact same amount as Intution/Lingering Souls. Plus, Thopter combo is vulnerable to both graveyard hate and artifact removal, whereas Lingering Souls is only vulnerable to the former. Thopter combo does give the added benefit of life gain and can make more than 8 flyers (although you probably don't need more than eight to win in most situations).

catmint

03-12-2012, 03:30 PM

Intution for Souls is also vulnerable to graveyard hate...
you get pretty sick value out of surgical extraction ;)

Blitzbold

03-12-2012, 03:35 PM

I am wondering whether there should be at least one Cabal Therapy among the discard spells. 2 would be even better, as an Intuition for Lingering Souls + Therapy + Therapy should be devastating. Thoughtseize's function (especially in a deck like this) is a bit different, though, as it is nearly guaranteed to hit a card while a blind Therapy wouldn't do so necessarily.

Also, is Lingering Souls x4 the correct number? I'd hate to have 2 in my opening hand, so maybe 3 is a more convenient number? This would allow us to play 3 Inquisition of Kozilek and 2 Cabal Therapy for example, thus strengthening the discard package.

Somewhere in the coverage Tom mentions that he wasn't happy with Tower of the Magistrate and that another Tundra would probably be his first choice for replacing it. I thought about other utility lands like Volrath's Stronghold or Academy Ruins, but I guess this would only increase my urge to expand on the Intuition toolbox too much (like adding Stronghold + Shriekmaw or Ruins + EE and so on).

Intution for Souls is also vulnerable to graveyard hate...
you get pretty sick value out of surgical extraction ;)

I saw this one a bit too late, sorry. Do you really think that people will board GY hate against this? I'd rather think that cards like Sulfur Elemental would see more play. It's still possible, though, but highly depends on how many people will start picking this one up. My first guess for boarding against this would be REB's and Artifact Hate, but maybe you're right, too.

eq.firemind

03-12-2012, 03:48 PM

I think Riptide Laboratory can take Tower's slot.

Hanni

03-12-2012, 04:53 PM

Intution into Lingering Souls is pretty efficient for what it gives you. You note that you get 8 1/1 flyers for 12 mana. But that's just as good as the Sword of the Meek/Thopter Foundry combo.

If you do the Sword of the Meek/Thopter Foundry combo, you have to find two cards to make it work instead of just one (Intuition). You pay two for the sword, two for the foundry, and then one for each 1/1 flyer you make. So it get up to 8 1/1 flyers, you have to invest 12 mana--the exact same amount as Intution/Lingering Souls. Plus, Thopter combo is vulnerable to both graveyard hate and artifact removal, whereas Lingering Souls is only vulnerable to the former. Thopter combo does give the added benefit of life gain and can make more than 8 flyers (although you probably don't need more than eight to win in most situations).

I'm not undermining the power of Intuition/Souls. I get it, 8 1/1 fliers can be rediculous to deal with. I know this first hand because I've played quite a bit with a W/b Tokens deck that I have a thread for in N&D.

My point was that in a deck like this, the initial 5 mana for two 1/1 fliers, with a cost of 12 total, seems a bit slow. CounterTop Thopter decks themselves are slow, but they manage to stabilize with cards like Moat, Humility, or Ensaring Bridge, etc, and the tokens that they slowly crank out also gain life to stabilize. I watched CounterTop Thopter's get beat in an earlier ggslive match because it did absolutely nothing relevant for the entirety of the early game (I think it was against RUG Tempo).

Comparing the Intuition/Souls combo to the Thopter/Foundry is a very valid point, as I do think Intuition/Souls is a much better engine than Thopter/Foundry, for several reasons. However, both of those engines are slow, and seem like they would fit much better into a dedicated control deck. Tom's deck is definitely further along the control curve than a list like the one I'm running, but it's still an aggro/control deck.

That's all I was getting at. Also, I'm not trying to argue against his build. He just won the friggin Grand Prix with it. If I was going for a slower version, further down the control spectrum, his build is pretty close to what I'd run. I'm only questioning if Intuition into Souls is fast enough to be relevant, in this particular deck.

Koby

03-12-2012, 04:58 PM

I suggested to him to run Quiet Speculation for value - he almost ran it :P

birds of paradise2

03-12-2012, 05:05 PM

It doesn't make sence to compare to thopter/sword. Intuition is a 1-off, so the deck isn't really looking to get a early intuition off.

" I'm only questioning if Intuition into Souls is fast enough to be relevant"
With 1 intuition, intuition->soul ASAP play isn't what the deck is aiming for.

Koby

03-12-2012, 05:07 PM

Intuition in the deck is obviously not just for Lingering Souls x3. The Darkblast should be clear of that. I think even Unearth would be sweet in the package - Intuition -> Snapcaster Mage, Unearth, Clique. Hawtsauce.

catmint

03-12-2012, 06:00 PM

I saw this one a bit too late, sorry. Do you really think that people will board GY hate against this? I'd rather think that cards like Sulfur Elemental would see more play. It's still possible, though, but highly depends on how many people will start picking this one up. My first guess for boarding against this would be REB's and Artifact Hate, but maybe you're right, too.

Against a deck running lingering souls, intuition and snapcaster mage I guess a lot of decks would bring in 2 extraction. It will only be a dead card if you are winning anyway I guess...
Even if you just extract the first lingering souls... you trade "half a card" (which happens to be 2 1/1 flying bodies" versus 1 card and as a bonus you take out 1 of 3 potent win-conditions from the deck.

Love the comparision with thopter combo in terms of mana to develop 8 tokens...
I think it is a lot stronger because you don't need to run any "dead" cards... every single lingering souls or intution is just a powerful card on its own...

Drac

03-13-2012, 08:44 AM

I think the deck looks amazing.

Props to Martell for running a list based on me and my team's deck. And extra props for giving us the credit on his twitter

lordofthepit

03-13-2012, 08:10 PM

I think the deck looks amazing.

Props to Martell for running a list based on me and my team's deck. And extra props for giving us the credit on his twitter

I found a copy of your list on TCDecks. Do you guy have a discussion or something that we can check out?

You're cutting the Ponders? I feel very uncomfortable with just 22 lands and even fewer cantrips, especially when I draw Jace, Vindicate, Intuition, or Clique.

wcm8

03-15-2012, 02:14 PM

Everybody's been comparing Lingering Souls to Thopter Foundry and Bitterblossom, but perhaps a more apt comparison is comparing it to Elspeth.

Uninterrupted, on turn 4 this card provides 4 tokens in comparison to Elspeth's first one. And even if it gets countered the first time, it will likely still provide value thanks to flashback. At the earliest, Elspeth would get you 4 tokens on turn 7, which is incredibly slow and may be too little, too late in the matchups where having tokens matters.

Elspeth can be amazing, but Lingering Souls might just be a better card in Legacy for control decks. It provides practically all of the same benefits more cost-effectively and faster. The tokens having flying is further icing on the cake. Ask yourself how often you actually used Elspeth's Jump or Ultimate ability -- generally those games were ones you were winning anyways.

The only disadvantage to running Lingering Souls is that your mana base becomes more vulnerable, and finding room for utility lands is harder.

Hanni

03-15-2012, 02:39 PM

Well, when it look at it strictly like that, then sure. Souls is definitely better from a tempo perspective vs Elspeth. The thing about Elspeth, though, is even against something like EE, she sticks around to still give you some board presence. She's a one time investment of 4 mana that can make X amount of tokens over X turns.

I think the real question is, why not run Sorin instead of Elspeth, and also run Lingering Souls? They pretty muc printed those two cards purposely to work together if you ask me. Sorin, Lord of Tokens and Lingering Token Maker, right?

wcm8

03-15-2012, 03:22 PM

Against board sweepers, you can save LS for later rather than flashing it back right away.

Sorin could definitely make an appearance, but I think he may be 'win-more' rather than just 'win'.

bruizar

03-15-2012, 03:37 PM

Why not run Jace, instead of Elspeth or Sorin?

bruizar

03-16-2012, 03:40 AM

Think some of you are suffering from new toy syndrome

Hanni

03-16-2012, 03:54 AM

I wasn't saying that I was going to run Souls and Sorin in Esperblade, I was just pointing out the synergy...

Personally, I still prefer Mother of Runes, Dark Confidant, and Daze over Souls, Jace, and the other slow stuff.

OrGy

03-16-2012, 11:37 AM

Martell's list has proven very solid compared to previous versions running Dark Confidant : The two cards provide CA but LS is far less disrupted by countermagic and blasts.

I'd like to point out some observations about the list :

Manabase :
- Running a lone Karakas without any real way to get it efficiently seems a little bit ambitious. Though it's cute with Clique in the pack and provides an elegant solution to Iona, Elesh Norn, Thalia, Teeg, and such, it is far too often a random additional plains that will get wasted.

- We intensively tested the former version (Dark Confidant Esperblade) against Martell's and came to the conclusion that the lack of waste in the MD is really hard to come by.
The first deck (packing Wasteland) often puts the second (that don't) in color screw, while fetching bilands in the same time to keep access to its colors.
Tom Martell wished he had cut the Tower of the Magistrate off his list to replace it with a good old Tundra : That's one way to go but it leaves the deck pretty vulnerable to Maze of Ith, Grove/Punishing Fire, opponent Tower or Riptide Laboratory shenanigans.

Active cards :
Geist of Saint Traft put a damper on the deck. It would seem that a constant flow of flying 1/1 or flashed Mages/Clique could be sufficient to keep the tiny 2/2 spirit at bay, but in tests, a wary opponent will not bash your face without due protection (call it disrupt before attack, equipment, STP ready to pounce). And the deck has virtually no efficient way to get rid of the Geist.

Plugs :
We began testing with a miser Unearth to complement the Intuition package. It's been quite interesting so far.
If your strategy goes unharmed, go Intuition to get 3 Lingering Souls.

Unearth is also quite good on its own if you already got a SCM or SFM in the yard, or can simply be cycled for goodies.
It could get replaced by Reanimate but we don't really usually discard CC<4 creatures on our thoughtseize and Inquisition (that's Lingering Souls job to handle those) and life loss could be problematic at times.

bruizar

03-16-2012, 01:12 PM

2 tokens is all you need to deal with geist. I don't see how that card is problematic for this deck.

Crucible seems good against wasteland decks, and ensures you can academy ruins in the lategame. On the otherhand I'm not sure if it can be used to full potential without wastelands/factories.
I'm not playing spell snare, which may be a mistake, and I kind of want to make room for a 23rd land. Any suggestions?

Samara

03-17-2012, 10:54 PM

I can see why Lingering Souls is strong. Jitte+a lot of evasive creatures. But I wouldn't chose it as the main game plan.

I know is like "he won the gp, you must be wrong" ... But lingering souls is a nice card, not a godlike card that you will want four, and then you will break legacy.

Maybe i'm wrong, and Lingering souls will be our next Jace TMS (hardly)... But I still think is just a very well positioned deck in this tournament, not the strongest build.

4 Lingering Souls.. .Why not 3? It's 3CMC.
Running a single intuition... and not running ee or unearth or anything to abuse intution's power (besides ls pack).

I would rather use 3 LS, 2 Intution, 1 unearth... Or something like that.

I would definily run 23 lands or 22 lands + 3 ponders. OR at least 4 basics.

----

Still... I would be glad to run 3 or even 4 lingering souls if someone explain to me why you would run 4 of a card that is 3CMC and give you tokens (a reliquary is 3cmc)...cutting one snapcaster for it....Why not just run 2 moorland haunt?

I also don't think 4 spirit token is CA to be compared to Dark Confidant. (assuming that bob is alive for more than 2 turns)

RogueMTG

03-18-2012, 01:35 AM

Intution for Souls is also vulnerable to graveyard hate...
you get pretty sick value out of surgical extraction ;)

I did this to Tom in game 2 of round 5 day 1 and thought I had a chance for a minute... unfortunately he already resolved one and promptly inquisitioned my out. :(

from Cairo

03-18-2012, 02:34 AM

Played around with his list tonight. It's definitely fun and powerful. I kind of agree with some of you that I would like to expand the Intuition tool box to offer a 2nd option outside trip-LSs.

Considering trying an Unearth over LSs #4 or a Cabal Therapy over IoK #2, just to give a bit more depth to Intuition.

lordofthepit

03-18-2012, 02:51 AM

Is it worthwhile to expand the Intuition toolbox? The original list only ran two copies; Martell ran one. I'm not sure it's worth cluttering up the list with stuff like Unearth and Cabal Therapy (both of which are decent cards, but this deck is already very tight) to improve the toolbox capability of a card that is rarely drawn.

I'm kind of hesitant on Intuition overall. It's absolutely absurd if you resolve it early for three Lingering Souls, or if you topdeck it late. But I find that against most decks (outside the pseudo-mirror), you don't really have time to hold open 3 mana.

OrGy

03-18-2012, 10:11 AM

2 tokens is all you need to deal with geist. I don't see how that card is problematic for this deck.2 Token makes for a big deal if you cannot use them offensively at any point in the mirror.Intuition is only a 1 of in the list and without it, it won't be till late game that you'll begin to pop out more than 4 spirit tokens on board. When keeping them defensively, you won't be able to pressure your opponent Life points forcing them to rush some plays to stop the onslaught.
Furthermore, he gives you hard times to protect your Jace (3 Tokens are mandatory at that point), hard times to pressure your opponent Planeswalker and is really hard to manage if your opponent sticks any equipment for him.

lordofthepit

03-20-2012, 06:53 AM

Took this deck out to a few tournaments, and I've been really happy with the performance overall.

Some observations:
1) This deck is surprisingly requires quite a bit of mana, and there are only 22 lands to support it. My matches have been mostly against aggressive decks so far, so there's certainly a bit of a bias, but I really want to go to 3 or even 4 Ponders maindeck. I'm leaning towards cutting the Intuition (as cool as it is) and maybe a Jace. I found myself boarding them out a lot.
2) There is no lack of targets for Snapcaster Mage in this deck. Awesome. The card is a 4-of for me in this deck, and I'm often the most vocal critic about how overrated SCM is.
3) The blue count is pretty low. The deck at the Belgian nationals ran 18 blue cards, including FoW; Martell ran 19. I want to cut some of the non-blue cards, but Swords to Plowshares is a mandatory 4-of, and the discard spells and Lingering Souls are a difference maker in this archetype. Vindicate is an awesome and versatile card, but it's a bit clunky to draw early, and you can't necessarily guarantee it in your hand late when you need to hit something.
I'm almost tempted to cut Vindicate for Repeal, which is admittedly a weaker card, but it's one that pitches to Force of Will and does a lot of what you would use Vindicate for anyway (i.e. deal with problematic artifacts, enchantments, and creatures), in conjunction with our discard. It's an awesome tempo play on token creatures, makes for interesting shenanigans with Snapcaster Mage (chump your attacker, Repeal the blocker, draw a card, then reuse Snapcaster later).
4) I really want more than 4 Swords to Plowshares against aggressive decks, which is a large reason why I want to run 7-8 cantrips. Considering adding Path to Exile or Dismember in the sideboard; both have their drawbacks. Opinions? Maybe Ghastly Demise?
5) Sticking the fourth Force of Will back in the maindeck. I'm usually more conservative than most people with Force of Will, and I sideboard them out more often than most, but this deck has an awesome late game but can really use the tempo boost provided by Force (to counter an important spell or to protect Stoneforge on a pivotal turn, for instance).

catmint

03-20-2012, 09:34 AM

4) I really want more than 4 Swords to Plowshares against aggressive decks, which is a large reason why I want to run 7-8 cantrips. Considering adding Path to Exile or Dismember in the sideboard; both have their drawbacks. Opinions? Maybe Ghastly Demise?

I think the Ghastly Demise and Darkblast are the next more powerful options.

This is my take on Esperblade. It even beats Burn by StP → Dreadnought. Mother of Runes has originally been Inquisition of Kozilek, but Mother is actually more powerful if it comes down to protecting dudes. Tell me what you think.

This is my take on Esperblade. It even beats Burn by StP → Dreadnought. Mother of Runes has originally been Inquisition of Kozilek, but Mother is actually more powerful if it comes down to protecting dudes. Tell me what you think.

Where is the blade of the Esper? Other than that Noughty Mom is a viable archetype in the past (explored by one of my friends who tested a Bant List with Goyfs/Moms/Noughts). I do think your list is possibly stronger than a Bant version.

This is my take on Esperblade. It even beats Burn by StP → Dreadnought. Mother of Runes has originally been Inquisition of Kozilek, but Mother is actually more powerful if it comes down to protecting dudes. Tell me what you think.

With all due respect, but this list should be discussed in the Dreadstill Thread, as it is basically Ub Dreadnought splashing white for Swords and Mother. Stoneblade is a a little bit slower deck that is built on SFM and Jace.

Koby

03-20-2012, 04:28 PM

I'm starting to get the impression that the LS package is there solely to beat the mirror - not deal with actual hard matchups like Maverick. There might be some games in which the tempo of going Discard/removal/LS-flashback might eek out a win against an average Maverick draw, but most of the time there's no way to close the gap once Knight of the Reliquary starts doing its thing.

Thoughts?

Julian23

03-20-2012, 04:49 PM

I haven't played this deck a lot yet, but have been playing Maverick for ages now. To me it seems, all LS does in this matchup is try to get counters on Jitte asap, so you have a chance against Mother of Runes. Other than that, LS shouldn't really cause problems for Maverick. One could argue for being able to chump block Knight several times, but that only actually helps in case youve got the Jace+Removal/Counter to back it up.

routlaw

03-20-2012, 04:56 PM

The stoneblade matchup still revolves around Mother of Runes sticking (almost impossible to win if you untap w/ Mother of Runes) , but Lingering Souls does provide reasonable blockers for Jace.

U/W Stoneblade - Jace has to bounce Knight.
Esper Stoneblade - Chump giant green man with tokens, brainstorm some more. You can go find Wastelands but the Stoneblade player will be able to brainstorm into more land easily.

In the matches I have played this has happened a few times and is the other extent of Lingering Souls in the preboard matchup outside of the Jitte/token interaction mentioned bfore.

Post-board it all becomes about sideboard cards anyway. Stoneblade can't beat a Choke that sticks and Maverick gets blown out by Perish provided the Stoneblade player has any reasonable follow-up.

Koby

03-20-2012, 05:05 PM

Yes, I forgot to mention for the Game 1 scenario. SB games favor Stoneblade due to Perish being much better than Wrath in traditional UW lists. It also gets around the Gaddock Teeg issue.

Playing a 2nd Jitte is a good idea for this deck for that matchup as well.

Iron Buddha

03-20-2012, 05:10 PM

Where is the blade of the Esper? Other than that Noughty Mom is a viable archetype in the past (explored by one of my friends who tested a Bant List with Goyfs/Moms/Noughts). I do think your list is possibly stronger than a Bant version.

...good question. I've looked over the list in the opening post and saw a list with 18 lands, so I accidently thought this is a Tempo thread.

routlaw

03-20-2012, 05:43 PM

Playing a 2nd Jitte is a good idea for this deck for that matchup as well.

I can't speak for the Maverick decks, but the 2nd Jitte in the board for the mirror is a must (I would do the same in Maverick, maybe not some of the more other white-heavy equipment decks since you usually have access to Manriki-Gusari).

Stillmoon Cavalier seems pretty gross as well but I don't know if it is better or worse than a second Zealous Persecution, probably not. Too narrow.

Enric

03-21-2012, 05:15 AM

Hi, I've recorded some rounds with this deck on Magic Online, with comments in english:

From my experience, LS was awesome against RUG delver. But the Maverick match hasn't really improved at all (apart from perish). Grove/punishing fire seemed like such a beating without wasteland.

Julian23

03-22-2012, 08:55 AM

I think I'd rather have Virtue's Ruin against Maverick. Should make for the way harder blowout. Right now I consider going down to 1 Perish, upping to 2 Virtue's Ruin.

fallenphoenix

03-22-2012, 01:13 PM

Virtue's Ruin certainly kills a few more creatures, but on the other hand: Thrun.
;)

I think boarding some number of Explosives, Perish and -1/-1 Effects is probably best, this way you cover all your bases and aren't dead against some ridiculous Hexproof nonsense.

Julian23

03-22-2012, 01:37 PM

I don't like relying on EE when they've got Gaddock. But I keep forgetting about the -1/-1 effects that deal with Mother of Runes. Though...good point, I think I'll stick with 2 Perish.

Koby

03-22-2012, 01:45 PM

Either Perish or Virtue's Ruin pretty much wreck Maverick when played at a clutch time. Each has its benefits and shortcomings - but the purpose is mostly the same: 3 mana Wrath. EE is mainly used to remove Hierarchs/Mother of Runes in the early game and provide another removal spell for Umezawa's Jitte/SFM/Scavenging Ooze.

Spot removal should be used against Mother of Runes, Knights, and Ooze (if you're playing with a heavy reliance on Snapcaster Mage and/or Lingering Souls). Everything else is relatively harmless.

routlaw

03-22-2012, 03:38 PM

Perish is easily the pick for the deck over Virtue's Ruin because of what it does for you in three other tier one matchups (where Virtue's Ruin is a real blank).

From my experience, LS was awesome against RUG delver. But the Maverick match hasn't really improved at all (apart from perish). Grove/punishing fire seemed like such a beating without wasteland.

The Punishing Fire matchup is actually pretty bad, but Maverick decks don't run the Groves (the real problem) in the same numbers as other Punishing Fire decks so if you can focus on keeping Knights from untapping at the expense of anything else, you can sometimes steal preboard games. The post-board fights are still about fighting off Choke, finding and resolving your sideboard bombs, and leaning heavily on your equipment package.

Changes
23 land
+2 wasteland
+3 cabal therapy-has a ton of synergy with lingering souls snap caster batterskull and intuition. Casting intuition for 2 therapy and a soul or three therapy if you have tokens is just great

-1 clique I love this guy but he is bad against spirit tokens lingering souls competes at the three spot and makes you want to tap out
-1 karakas fine card I think wasteland is more important. It is not as good for us as G/W we don't have knight to search it out
-1 lingering souls still testing this LS is great but its a little slow 3 feels right to me

Kellyx

03-28-2012, 12:13 PM

How come, everyone is coppying lingering souls build now?
I mean...its a meta-tuned deck.+there is another uwb blade on same tournament that went undefeated in swiss.And looks more relyable in my point of view.
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7874&iddeck=57343
I just cant find an exuse to not to play at least 2-3 bobs.They are kinda the main reason the deck got black splash(at least they were)

Rizso

03-28-2012, 05:14 PM

If someone has followed vintage after snapcaster got released they started to abuse Intution for Accumulated Knowledge with snapcaster to get even more cards from them.

Question is if the esperblade deck with Lingering souls / Intuition would be able abuse this play as well. This would give the Intuition a more powerful effect more then just tutor or massive amount of tokens.

rchinnock

03-28-2012, 05:32 PM

This deck is still a stoneforge deck, in UW (mostly), but with a splash of delver. The basic build of the deck remains the same, but you gain a faster clock, as well as some other benefits. You have some nice synergy - playing both bob and SFM gives you a much higher chance of resolving one of them, especially since people will often use a removal spell to kill your delver, and once you get either bob or SFM active you are likely to overwhelm your opponent. Also, you have a lot of ways to abuse your cantrips, with a ton of shuffle effects, delver, and bob. Finally, lingering souls gives you a ton of gas, and a game plan that is different from the rest of your deck - they can't deal with your spirits with a single removal spell, so often it will be very hard for them to stop you from killing them eventually if you are on the offense. Obviously, it is also good with equipment etc. Things I would think of doing with the deck - Jace could be put in the SB, but I don't htink he fits in the MD and it is nice to keep your curve very low. You can abuse extra mana with this deck, with lingering souls, equipment, etc, but i don't NEED as many lands as most SFM decks, which makes you less vulnerable to LD. The deck could also play a couple vindicates, a couple V-Cliques, or some Geist of Saint Trafts. It could also play some targeted discard, possibly instead of spell snares. It could also play Daze instead of spell snare. Wasteland might be good to play instead of factory if you play daze, and it would be nice to play more utility lands in general - but you might not be able to since you don't play many lands overall.

It seems aggressive but also more resilient than the RUG delver decks, which is one of the things that appeals to me about the deck. You have a lot of gas and a lot of ways to filter through your deck, so you rarely end up with nothing to do (if ever). However, you obbviously lack burn, and so you are slower and have less reach than RUG delver, whereas you are less able to control the game than traditional SFM decks. It tries to tow the line of both, with some disruption, some cheap and efficient creatures that can put on a clock but also get you card advantage. WHat do people think? Does this seem like a possibly worth-while direction for SFM decks to take?

I find this deck (with the new black splash) still has a poor matchup against GWr Maverick running Punishing Fires, which is pretty galling for me since I used to be the guy running Punishing Fire in my Zoo decks.

I'm not sure if I'm approaching the matchup wrong, but how are you guys sideboarding? Do you board in any grave hate like Surgical Extraction? All of our creatures die against Punishing Fire, and it's nearly impossible to stick a Jace.

Julian23

04-02-2012, 08:43 AM

I bring in 1-2 Meddling Mages and 1-2 Surgical Extractions against decks with Punishing Fire. However, I didn't play enough recently to come to a decisive conclusion.

It has a very solid game against Maverick, even more so against 3cc builds. The tech everyone seems to be missing is Back to Basics, which often is insta-win vs a couple of matches.

Fade

04-02-2012, 09:22 AM

How come, everyone is coppying lingering souls build now?
I mean...its a meta-tuned deck.+there is another uwb blade on same tournament that went undefeated in swiss.And looks more relyable in my point of view.
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7874&iddeck=57343
I just cant find an exuse to not to play at least 2-3 bobs.They are kinda the main reason the deck got black splash(at least they were)

This list was made by one of the people who I play with at local legacy sometimes. His list is very solid and he has been playing it for as long as I can remember. I've been thinking about playing it myself to see how it runs but I would recommend it to anyone who wants to try Esper.

xfxf

04-02-2012, 09:28 AM

What's up with it's sideboard though? All 1-ofs.

I like the Dark Confidants but I'm not sure if I understand the 3 Spell Snares. Discard can effectively be the same thing. Snare is a narrow spell by itself and when you play you reduce the probability of having it in your hand when you actually need it. I would think Spell Pierce in it's place. When you consider the answers suite of removal, counters, discard I think it makes sense to compliment swords and discard with pierce but I'm not basing this on any experience with the deck. Just throwing out some ideas..

Fade

04-02-2012, 09:59 AM

What's up with it's sideboard though? All 1-ofs.

I like the Dark Confidants but I'm not sure if I understand the 3 Spell Snares. Discard can effectively be the same thing. Snare is a narrow spell by itself and when you play you reduce the probability of having it in your hand when you actually need it. I would think Spell Pierce in it's place. When you consider the answers suite of removal, counters, discard I think it makes sense to compliment swords and discard with pierce but I'm not basing this on any experience with the deck. Just throwing out some ideas..

I don't understand all the choices of the deck, but I assume he wanted to hit a certain number of blue spells for force of will, where discard would just make force weaker. Since snare is a hard counter for anything at 2 it is better than Daze/Spell Pierce in his book (Maybe you could mess around with the counter suite by cutting one or two and adding Spell Pierce/Counterspell). The spell snares might be match dependent where it helps him out in a matchup that plays a lot of 2cc spells but I'm unsure. The one of's were an experiment that he was doing for the gran prix by trying to play a Nassif style sideboard minus the 4 of Leyline of the Void because he hates playing dredge. As far as I know he liked the sideboard and as he went undefeated day 1 it ran very well.

EDIT: It may also be due to the fact that his deck is pimped out and he didn't have multiple Spell Pierces ... but I don't think that is the reason as he could've gotten pimp Spell Pierces in time.

ThirdEy3

04-03-2012, 01:28 PM

I have been testing this version and have come to like the way it curves out and plays overall as a deck I think it is very strong in the meta overall, obviously it shows with its recent liking by many. It also fits my personal play style very much and can be tweaked very well for meta depending on where you are.

Other meta choices I go back and forth on are
Darkblast ~ (somewhat better now that we run intuition, never liked it as a 1 of before in testing but I can see its viable uses, -1 path to exile?)
Perish ~ (I was trying Zealous persecution #2 instead of perish because of thalia, mom, and empty the warrens presence in my meta also amazing against elves if they dont see a lord or response to one)
Wrath of God ~ may be too slow for esper without using spell snare vs the decks you want to wrath without some counter or other hate - it just seems a bit to slow now

I like the idea of Unearth but feel like most of the time without the intuition package not targeting lingering souls, and SFM, usually RFG & not in graveyard is the same reason I don't like sword of light and shadow. Maybe if 2 intuitions were in the deck and it was more of a theme, but as a 1 of, for most people replacing Elspeth, I dont think it is worth the unearth slot even if it can cycle2

1st post ~ Some of you may know me as the tall guy with the Moustache and Zombieland Cowboy hat/ dreadlocks at tournaments. East coast area ppl. or GP Rhode Island White Linen dressed as Jesus ;)

Looking forward to seeing where this deck goes in the future of legacy, I think it has a good chance of developing a good Esper deck.

Fade

04-05-2012, 01:27 PM

What's up with it's sideboard though? All 1-ofs.

I like the Dark Confidants but I'm not sure if I understand the 3 Spell Snares. Discard can effectively be the same thing. Snare is a narrow spell by itself and when you play you reduce the probability of having it in your hand when you actually need it. I would think Spell Pierce in it's place. When you consider the answers suite of removal, counters, discard I think it makes sense to compliment swords and discard with pierce but I'm not basing this on any experience with the deck. Just throwing out some ideas..

I was browsing and I saw this video. It has a segment where the player in my local meta who plays Esper Blade is discussing the deck. I thought it was interesting and you guys might want to check it out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wi1fd7xH8ug

Julian23

04-06-2012, 08:56 AM

Ok The Source, this is your turn. Going to a trial for Annecy tomorrow fielding this deck. What I am asking for is advise on my sideboard. I really need something to fight NicFit. Let's face it, the matchup is abysmal and our lategame against them is non-existant.

I am asking for cards that have the potential to swing this matchup into my favor. I don't care if it would be of little to no value in other matchups; my meta is infested with Nic Fit and I need to fight a way of battling through it. Right now I consider adding 3-4 cards to my sb that specifically adress this matchup.

Show me what you're made of.

kiwi

04-06-2012, 09:09 AM

Against nicfit the most important is to resolve a Jace.

On other hand good cards against NicFit:
-Sword of feast and famine
-Aven Mindcensor
-Compost (for drawing a bunch of cards).
-Phyrexian revoker for naming Pernicious deed and senseis divining top (wich his very important in this deck)
-Hibernation, Perish, Submerge, Mind Harness, etc...

Julian23

04-06-2012, 09:11 AM

I like your suggestion of Revoker. I'm less concerned about Deed (for reason that is Jace) but about opposing Planeswalkers who usually tend to dominate Jace.

kiwi

04-06-2012, 09:14 AM

With phyrexian revoker vs another decks you also can name a lot of important cards like Leds and mother of runes.