Replacing the Tech Trade mechanic

Research agreements?

Let's face it, few mechanisms have been more exploitable then the trading of techs. With the diplo-bonuses of the human faction in GalCiv2 it became even more crazy. I like the way the diplo-skill worked in GalCiv2, but I've never liked tech-trading.

The AI can't cope with it, research progress goes to fast, and it causes the boring type of micro'ing (micro can be good for gameplay, but not this kind of micro, checking AI diplo every turn to exploit tech-trade as much as possible). It just feels cheap.

Civ 5 got away with it with their new Research Agreement mechanism. People here have any thoughts about how we can change Tech-Trade and still make good diplo skills usefull (not that diplo-skills didn't have other good benefits too then getting cheap tech)?

The goal should be a mechanism that is weaker then Trade-Tech, but have some elements of it. If it's diplomacy related, like for instance Research Agreements, diplomatic skillfull Civilizations will still have benefits in getting them.

Firm and strong YES for keeping tech trading and brokering in the game! Hell, NO greyish and shallow "may I trade my 15 in Magic for your 15 in Warfare?" like in Elemental. And NO to alliances put too late in the tech tree (= essentially crippled).

And of course, ltes keep an option to turn it off as well. You dont like tech trading and brokering? Turn it off. Problem solved.

And of course, ltes keep an option to turn it off as well. You dont like tech trading and brokering? Turn it off. Problem solved.

I'm afraid it is not that easy. Take for instance GalCiv2 and the human faction (or how diplomatic skill worked in general).

If you turned off tech trading it was a great nerf to the human faction, and also a nerf to tech/buildings that improved diplo-skills.

If you had trade tech turned on, well, then you have to play that extremely tedious tech trading game to keep up with the AIs tech trading. In my opinion this feature adds nothing to gameplay but exploitive and non-brainer gameplay, and potentially so called OP in human hands. It also involves alot of micro, and a kind of micro that isnt adding to gameplay is potentially bad for the game design. To be justified, micro needs to add to the experience of taking important decissions, like for instance designing your own ship types.

GalCiv2 diplo-skill system is just an example, diplo-skills can work differently in GalCiv3. But this is an example on how features works in relation to eachother. If you design the game with the game mechanism tech trading, then other mechanisms will be balanced arround it, like for instance the strength of the diplo-skill.

With this approach, nearly everything is human-exploitable, I am afraid. Still its a matter of choice: you want more challenging game? Turn tech trading/brokering off. Or do not use it. Or use it only with non-military technologies. The choice is up to every player, but why to deny it entirely?

Diplomacy building/bonuses would be still very useful. You can get peace easier. You can make other civs wage war on each other easier. Etc.

Tech trading is an important factor for game immersion, in my opinion. Yeah, of course, we need to flesh this out in terms of balance, AI decision-making tresholds or otherwise: maybe we can trade blueprints that still need to be further developed?

But do not take the super nerf way of Elemental, which resulted in - compared to Galciv - very poor and substandard diplomacy. In EWOM and FE, the diplomacy might be exploit-proof, but it is no fun, intrigue, its contribution to the game is extremely limited. There is no point in being human like faction, specialized in diplomacy, because it would give you nearly nothing.

Now compare that to very funny and living diplomacy in Galciv II...

Keep the choice and let everybody to decide by himself. Thats my two cents.

GalCiv is based on a tech trading (stargate thingy) and I like trading with the AI. You can have a button to disable tech brokering but I want tech trade in. They need to tweak the system more and better but any system can be exploited by human players anyway.

Hmmm,.. I think maybe you could fix some of the problems by dividing tech into "discovery", "research" and "application" parts.

"Discovery", you would get more or less automatically by interaction with another civilization. The more use a technology sees, the harder it is to keep it secret."Wait, the Terrans use laser technology to make 3D pictures?

"Research" is a bit harder, because even if you can buy a gizmo on the open market, the odds are it won't come with a scientific paper attached. Still, you could simply have your diplomats go to the local library, Again, easier with wide-spread older tech, and if you have a good relationship with the civilization in question."OK, now I know what the theory behind holograms is."

"Application" is the hardest part. It's not like you can plug your alien gizmo into the wall. You need to produce the tech with an industry base that's nowhere like what the other civilization uses."But how do I get it to work in liquid methane using biocircuitry?"

Basically, even if you acquire alien tech, you still have to spend research points adapting it to your specific needs, making it not an instant improvement but something you have to work for. If you trade for ten techs, you'll still spend the next forty turns or so deciphering how to produce them; more depending on how different the other civilization is from yours. (Adaptation costs could differ for different techs, making some techs more desirable to trade for.)

Application can also be an ongoing process, making your existing tech better; The new quantum computing autopilot you got may have fancier piloting skills, but the older one takes a lot less space, is cheaper - and can take a hell of a beating, too, before breaking.

This sort of obstacle makes it less profitable to trade tech - but it's still important to do so; you just have to pick and choose what techs to spend resources on. And a more diplomatic species will still get more tech discoveries - only it's done automatically, with a small chance to get one every time you trade with, conquer or otherwise interact with members of another species.

I rather liked the way Sword of the Stars did tech trading, where the tech trade is essentially a joint research project that either party can cancel. It gives you an incentive to maintain good relations with a partner for a while, and also doesn't allow you to just go around vacuuming up all the technology in the galaxy that can be had for love or money. It was also something that required a bit of investment into making sure you had good relations just so you could get the trade offers in the first place.

... I think that techtrading should be changed , how it was, IT WAS TERRIBLE and it is terrible in Fallen Enchentress.

What I would have in mind is :

1,) You only could TRADE Techs, where your empire has qualified to Research them

2.) There should be DIPLOMATS/HEROES in the game, which could be used for different tasks. BUT that Heroes should be able to DO ALL ... spying, politics, trading, science, military ... how many of that heroes you have in your empire DEPENDS how many People you have ... let say every 5 000 000 000 you get one hero ,,, this could be improved with education ,,,

3.) That Heroes could be sent to SCIENCE Tasks ... so you Need an Agreement with another empire that they will give you the blueprints for a new tech ... so the hero has to travel there and he will be teached for some time , after that he comes back and gives his Information to the Research department and the Research time will be REDUCED .. depends how developed the other empire has been and how developed my own empire is and how good the hero is in that field !

So if you Need Research send all your heroes to tech trading ..if you need Money send them to trade missions ...

So what they are doing depends at the Situation in your empire ! But of course the longer you use one hero for science Tasks he will improve in that field ...

SO TECH TRADING should be only an % improvment for the research department,

like everything else (spying, politics ...) !

PS: As I have played somehow all 4x games the last 30 !!! years (starting with Apple II+) I have millions of ideas ,,,I remember still some Hotseat games "Reach for the stars (SSI)" with friends, who already left our world R.I.P.

For example, I'm human. I'm not into the military tech, but I have an ally who have good military ships. So rather than I trade their tech, I could buy their ships instead. Vice Versa, if I'm good at military tech and my ships are good and I have a weak Ally that need more military hardware, I can design two ship that almost identical. Say, F-16 for my own military and F-16 Monkey Model for export. Then I put my F-16 Monkey Model design to my trade display boxes so when my ally need more ship, they can buy that license and produce that export version of my F-16 to be added to their military.

So, by buying design license, the empire can produce a starship without researching the techs.

The AI never really knew what to do with the ships I'd give it/'em. I'd supplement their war machine to prop 'em up and 'bout 85% of the time the ships would just sit there. And, yes, I would throw currency their way to cover the cost of having 'em.

The AI never really knew what to do with the ships I'd give it/'em. I'd supplement their war machine to prop 'em up and 'bout 85% of the time the ships would just sit there. And, yes, I would throw currency their way to cover the cost of having 'em.

As far as the AI is concerned, it doesn't really care where the ships are stationed. If they are at war, though, I believe they do move them.

I have been thinking abit and think tech trading might be sensible if you have a system where you have to send emissaries (a hero/champion type) arround to do diplomacy. Then it wouldn't be something you did every turn with every civilization.

I thought the point of tech trading was to help out those Civs that were not as advanced get more tech. In most 4x games I like to go heavy econ and science which often results in me having more tech then the AI. In those that allow tech trading I often sell off my techs for whatever I might need or want at the time.

However in harder games when I can't keep my science up as much I often find that trading for techs is only way to keep up. People talk about Civ5 not allowing tech trading but with the use of Spies you can steal techs and thus it's basically the same thing just at a slower pace. In Civ5 if you fall behind the tech curve often times stealing lots of techs is the only way to keep up with other players.

Tech trading I feel helps keep most of the empires in the game on par with each other so no one falls too far behind the tech curve. The fact that the AI doesn't use it to it's full potential is not a valid reason to remove it. Instead it's a reason to work on improving the AI. After all the AI is mostly limited by CPU and RAM which as computers become better won't be as much of an issue. GC3 is going to have a lot of improvements and I'm sure AI will be one of them.

In closing I'd like to say I like Tech Trading and think it helps balance the game more than it hurts it.

What about a system where players can only trade tech for tech, and this would be comparing the cost of the techs themselves, possibly allowing players to pay some of their turns tech points to cover the difference between 2 techs that don't have the same cost.

So like a 130 RP tech for a 100 RP tech, with a fund of an extra 30 RP to the player to cover the difference?