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On another thread, in response to something I wrote, Joe Curran asked:

Quote:

I would be interested to know why O Sensei is portrayed in the statement above quote as a man with feet of clay. A complex life?O Sensei certainly had this.As far as feet of clay is this a personal opinion or factual?Please enlighten me here. Cheers, Joe.

But just off the top of my head (and these are all on record--documented--not just my opinions):
1. He was a supporter of idealistic fascism throughout his life--he opened his dojo to terrorists, and at Deguchi Onisaburo's behest, volunteered his services as a bodyguard to Hashimoto Kingoro when he was on a mission of assassination. (one bit of proof is actually in Anno and Holiday sensei's book - the treasured bokken that was broken in practice with Hikitsuchi sensei, was given to Ueshiba by Okawa Shumei - - a remarkable man, but one of the architects of WWII, political assassination, and the exploitation of Asia (Ueshiba maintained this friendship--calling Okawa sensei until his death in the late 1950's).
2. I do not argue in the slightest his ultimate goal of a world of peace, and that aiki is love. But he conflated this with himself as an avatar to make this possible, and at times, relegated others' practice as a kind of spiritual energy production so he could do the godlike work of unifying heaven and earth.
3. Stating he was beyond moral questions, he countenanced a number of behaviors amongst his followers that were not only considered immoral in the West, but Japan as well.
4. He worked at the Nakano Spy School, teaching people how to kill, and stopped, not because of his horror at the idea, but because his methods were not considered useful enough - -he was replaced by three Shotokan karate instructors, who tested blows on captives.

And no, I'm not going to go in to documenting each of these statements here. That's why I wrote my book (2nd edition release is spring of 2014).

My point is the same as I would make regarding Gandhi (who had some truly bizarre ideas on sexuality), on Martin Luther King (who was less than faithful), or Thomas Jefferson (a hypocrite on race). We actually have a better chance of appreciating and learning from great men and women when we see them as men-and-women, not gods. I believe Osensei's heartfelt statements--and the restructuring of his budo as a moral endeavor, came as a result of struggles with his own demons, not only his saintly response to the ills of the world.

What I love about Anno and Holiday sensei's book is that, as I can easily become preoccupied with the moral failings of this great man, they remind me of his greatness, a moral vision that far transcended his own humanity. He, like all the best of us, reached for something beyond--not only others, but beyond himself.

Hypocrisy is almost a guaranteed component in the life of interesting people. Not sure why folks are still so horrified to discover it in those we place on a pedestal. We certainly don't live in a world of absolutes. I appreciate the opportunity to know my predecessors as humans rather than demigods.

I am entirely on a page with you, Mr. Amdur, perhaps a small part of why, as much as I love aikido as an art and philosophical approach to life, don't fit in well with many dojo groups.

In my own reading, well beyond just your excellent works, much of this information is equally obvious and ignored. I believe it is really important that we don't put those who have pointed a meaningful way forward upon pedestals. Doing so is often a sign of a "follower" preaching their own agenda in the name of their avatar.

But just off the top of my head (and these are all on record--documented--not just my opinions):
1. He was a supporter of idealistic fascism throughout his life--he opened his dojo to terrorists, and at Deguchi Onisaburo's behest, volunteered his services as a bodyguard to Hashimoto Kingoro when he was on a mission of assassination. (one bit of proof is actually in Anno and Holiday sensei's book - the treasured bokken that was broken in practice with Hikitsuchi sensei, was given to Ueshiba by Okawa Shumei - - a remarkable man, but one of the architects of WWII, political assassination, and the exploitation of Asia (Ueshiba maintained this friendship--calling Okawa sensei until his death in the late 1950's).
2. I do not argue in the slightest his ultimate goal of a world of peace, and that aiki is love. But he conflated this with himself as an avatar to make this possible, and at times, relegated others' practice as a kind of spiritual energy production so he could do the godlike work of unifying heaven and earth.
3. Stating he was beyond moral questions, he countenanced a number of behaviors amongst his followers that were not only considered immoral in the West, but Japan as well.
4. He worked at the Nakano Spy School, teaching people how to kill, and stopped, not because of his horror at the idea, but because his methods were not considered useful enough - -he was replaced by three Shotokan karate instructors, who tested blows on captives.

And no, I'm not going to go in to documenting each of these statements here. That's why I wrote my book (2nd edition release is spring of 2014).

My point is the same as I would make regarding Gandhi (who had some truly bizarre ideas on sexuality), on Martin Luther King (who was less than faithful), or Thomas Jefferson (a hypocrite on race). We actually have a better chance of appreciating and learning from great men and women when we see them as men-and-women, not gods. I believe Osensei's heartfelt statements--and the restructuring of his budo as a moral endeavor, came as a result of struggles with his own demons, not only his saintly response to the ills of the world.

What I love about Anno and Holiday sensei's book is that, as I can easily become preoccupied with the moral failings of this great man, they remind me of his greatness, a moral vision that far transcended his own humanity. He, like all the best of us, reached for something beyond--not only others, but beyond himself.

Ellis Amdur

Dear Ellis,
O Sensei is by no means the first person to have views which are controversial and morally repugnant.. Tony Blair, for example, using his ideas of a moral compass [his religious conviction ] ended up in Iraq pursuing non existent weapons of mass destruction.By doing so he to all intents and purposes, by invading Iraq[along with Mr Bush ] killed thousands of Iraqis and soldiers of both sides.
Religious fanatics were the keystone of the Inquisition.The list of great men with great weaknesses could fill pages and pages ,My own view is O sensei was a product of his time, just a human being with flaws. No more no less.Of course his Martial Art prowess must have been exceptional.So let us just do what we can to ensure this legacy is maintained.
Cheers, Joe.

I said in another thread a few weeks ago that I am continually amazed by the number of people for whom it is not enough for aikido to simply be aikido.

There are those who treat aikido like a religion, and I think the belief that Ueshiba was a kind of saint or prophet is an extension of this. If aikido is just aikido, then Ueshiba can be what he was: a great martial artist with a great idea. And that understanding of O Sensei is not one that can be punctured by his failures as a human being.

The problem being, of course, that people don't agree on what aikido is - so "aikido to simply be aikido" doesn't really have any meaning without that common agreement.

Best,

Chris

You're right, of course, but I think you can see what I'm getting at. Aikido isn't a religion. It isn't a method of acquiring supernatural power. It isn't a shortcut to nirvana or union with God. If we do not expect these things out of aikido, then there is no need to believe that aikido's founder was anything more than a man.

You're right, of course, but I think you can see what I'm getting at. Aikido isn't a religion. It isn't a method of acquiring supernatural power. It isn't a shortcut to nirvana or union with God. If we do not expect these things out of aikido, then there is no need to believe that aikido's founder was anything more than a man.

Except that Morihei Ueshiba specifically said that it was some of those things.Hence the problem.

Of course, one could say that modern Aikido is different from what Morihei Ueshiba was doing, and they might have a point, but I think that most people would be loathe to admit that.

Except that Morihei Ueshiba specifically said that it was some of those things.Hence the problem.

Of course, one could say that modern Aikido is different from what Morihei Ueshiba was doing, and they might have a point, but I think that most people would be loathe to admit that.

Best,

Chris

People could also say that modern AIkido is the best possible product of Ueshiba's work in martial arts and that chasing after the imagination-magnified legends of his skills is, at best, a somewhat fruity/eccentric enterprise that we are all a little embarassed to be a part of, and they'd definitely have a point. Particularly in light of the war criminal stuff and other signs that he was not that great of a person and a little bit crazy.

I don't agree at all. In what universe is modern Aikido the best possible product? Why would we declare our Aikido adequate and not pursue the depths of Aikido's possibility just because our progenitors were of questionable morality? Hell everyone is of questionable morality.

In aikido, it is absolutely indispensable that we stand on the Floating Bridge of Heaven (Ame no Ukihashi). This is essential for us to return to and be unified with God, who is the spiritual source, the Original Parent.

And we must stand on the Floating Bridge even if we can find nothing else. Before God we must give up our ego, freeing our mind of all thoughts and endeavor to be able to execute divine deeds by calming our spirit (kon) and returning to God.

The primary divine work is attaining oneness with God, the Creator, returning to and unifying with God in harmony.

I don't agree at all. In what universe is modern Aikido the best possible product? Why would we declare our Aikido adequate and not pursue the depths of Aikido's possibility just because our progenitors were of questionable morality? Hell everyone is of questionable morality.

I think you are misunderstanding Cliff. He's not suggesting we "declare our Aikido adequate and not pursue the depths of Aikido's possibility"; he's suggesting that the way aikido has supposedly evolved away from its starting point (that is, Ueshiba) might be a good thing.

Oh, I'm aware that he talks about stuff like this all the time, but that's not what I said. What I said was:

Quote:

It isn't a shortcut to nirvana or union with God.

Ueshiba says that oneness with God is a good thing and an important goal, but I think it's a mistake to take it one step further and decide that aikido training is the ultimate, divinely ordained path to that goal. I like to think Ueshiba would take issue with that. I certainly do.

Oh, I'm aware that he talks about stuff like this all the time, but that's not what I said. What I said was:

It isn't a shortcut to nirvana or union with God.

Ueshiba says that oneness with God is a good thing and an important goal, but I think it's a mistake to take it one step further and decide that aikido training is the ultimate, divinely ordained path to that goal. I like to think Ueshiba would take issue with that. I certainly do.

Except that he says specifically and repeatedly that this is one of the goals of Aikido, which easily qualifies for your "shortcut to nirvana or union with God.".

I'm not sure how you get around that.

He didn't say anything about an "ultimate, divinely ordained path" - and neither did I.

Except that he says specifically and repeatedly that this is one of the goals of Aikido, which easily qualifies for your "shortcut to nirvana or union with God.".

I'm not sure how you get around that.

He didn't say anything about an "ultimate, divinely ordained path" - and neither did I.

Best,

Chris

I guess I never felt like Ueshiba thought aikido was a shortcut, only one of many ways to a goal which many people (the majority of whom are not aikidoists) share. Maybe I am bringing my own bias to my reading of Ueshiba.

In any case, whatever "oneness with God" is, I think one would be hard pressed to show that an aikidoist is more likely to achieve it than anyone else.

Except that he says specifically and repeatedly that this is one of the goals of Aikido, which easily qualifies for your "shortcut to nirvana or union with God.".

I'm not sure how you get around that.

He didn't say anything about an "ultimate, divinely ordained path" - and neither did I.

Best,

Chris

Oh wait, I know this one!

The way around this is to interpret his words as merely describing a training methodology which can be used to develop physical skills as found in some Chinese martial arts!

You might notice that none of Ueshiba's students actually seem to be transmitting a training methodology like this. But that will work out excellently, when further on down the line, you find yourself frustrated and disenchanted with the Aikido organizations created by those students.

The only problem is that you then have to start looking pretty seriously at Ueshiba himself, and you start to realize he highly regarded people who were instrumental in large-scale murder and very very dirty politics, and was largely okay with the idea that the Japanese should bring Asia into a warm, protective place just under the heel of its boot.

(And other stuff, like certain indignities perpetrated on shoji screens...or was that Deguchi???)

The way around this is to interpret his words as merely describing a training methodology which can be used to develop physical skills as found in some Chinese martial arts!

You might notice that none of Ueshiba's students actually seem to be transmitting a training methodology like this. But that will work out excellently, when further on down the line, you find yourself frustrated and disenchanted with the Aikido organizations created by those students.

If you think that what we're doing is attempting to reduce Ueshiba to merely physical skills than you have severely misunderstood what we're doing (and severely misunderstood what goes on in Chinese internal martial arts as well).

I am now, and have been, a member of the Aikikai for more than 30 years. There's nothing wrong with expressing dissatisfaction with actions of an organization that one belongs to - at least not in the United States. Welcome to Democracy.

I'd note that your own teacher was so "disenchanted with the Aikido organizations created by those students" at one point that he left - although he eventually went back.

I guess I never felt like Ueshiba thought aikido was a shortcut, only one of many ways to a goal which many people (the majority of whom are not aikidoists) share. Maybe I am bringing my own bias to my reading of Ueshiba.

In any case, whatever "oneness with God" is, I think one would be hard pressed to show that an aikidoist is more likely to achieve it than anyone else.

I'm not necessarily advocating "oneness with God" - or advocating against it, for that matter. All I'm saying is that it is virtually impossible to say the Morihei Ueshiba didn't consider that to be part of the definition of his Aikido.

I guess I never felt like Ueshiba thought aikido was a shortcut, only one of many ways to a goal which many people (the majority of whom are not aikidoists) share. Maybe I am bringing my own bias to my reading of Ueshiba.

In any case, whatever "oneness with God" is, I think one would be hard pressed to show that an aikidoist is more likely to achieve it than anyone else.

One notion that Ellis probably put into my head originally, but seems to jibe with things I vaguely understand about religion in Japan, is that Aikido being a path to oneness with "God" doesn't neccessarily mean it is a path to personal salvation, but is instead a group or communal activity that creates a storehouse of spiritual goodness. Ueshiba viewed himself as the person to harness this energy and direct it towards the goal of bringing Earth into union with Heaven.

(Though of course I am probably reading too much into that and really Ueshiba was just planning on standing still and feeling the spirals of ki go up and down his body so that he could prevent students from pushing him over.)

I wonder what aikido would look like, what it would be called if Japan had won the Pacific War? Or if they had been successful in negotiating a peace with the United States in 1942 as Admiral Yamamoto hoped. Obviously any opinion would be mere speculation, but to me an interesting thought after reading Amdur sensei's book.

I wonder what aikido would look like, what it would be called if Japan had won the Pacific War? Or if they had been successful in negotiating a peace with the United States in 1942 as Admiral Yamamoto hoped. Obviously any opinion would be mere speculation, but to me an interesting thought after reading Amdur sensei's book.

There would have been generations of brutality and oppression of Koreans, Chinese, Fillipinos, etc, is pretty much a guarantee. And Russia would have had to do something about having a huge expansive neighbor sharing the Asian continent.

Oh, I think I understand what the world would have looked like. My interest here was really about aikido specifically. O Sensei was apparently an ultra-nationalist before the war and certainly associated with folks so inclined. After the war he seemed to adopt this more loving and harmonious persona. I just wonder if that would have been the case if Japan had not lost the war. Obviously this is a question that can't be answered, but I wonder what the old leopard's spots would look like. He was certainly a spiritual character before the war and until his death, but that didn't stop him from his ultra-national politics in the pre-war period.

I was a white belt when Osensei was alive and aikido was One. There wasn't all these schools and politically bs that happen. he was an inspiration and simply human. Maybe not such a great teacher but an inspiration as his students fumbled around for the teaching. Tohei was the head guy and most responsible for creating aikido in America in the 60's and its amazing to me how he isn't acknowledged enough by the current hot shot teachers. for some his message of aiki was too much, too soft, and they couldn't really do it., Osensei was probably more of an artist than a leader.

I was a white belt when Osensei was alive and aikido was One. There wasn't all these schools and politically bs that happen.

It was only "one" in a certain view from the United States - things started splitting in Japan even before the war (when there was plenty of political bs), and the post-war opening of Aikido by the Aikikai was spurred in no small part by competition from the rising popularity of the Yoshinkan in the early 1950's. There really was no golden age free from politics and ego - that's just the way people are, I guess.