Re: 10/28 show discussion **SPOILERS**

Originally Posted by Katydyd;4098064;

I definitely think Mondo should've won...but I actually kind of liked Gretchen's line. I didn't care for her personally (at least the "TV" her we saw), and Mondo's line was much more creative, original and had more variety, but Grtetchen's line wasn't as bad as I was prepared for. I wonder if the move towards more ready-to-wear comes from Life Time and their idea of what their audience is looking for, or is it really a switch on Nina's and Michael's part? As for Mondo's polka dot dress - if I had the figure for ir I'd wear it in a heart beat!! I'm with Heidi on that one...love it!! But you do pretty well have to have a runway body to wear it. Fabulous as it is, it is not a dress the average woman could pull off.

I think Nina and Michael were upset that Mondo did not edit the polka dot dress. He was told to cut or shorten the sleeves. So he lost...plus Jessica's opinion didn't count because she's only a guest judge. If it's a tie---the guest judge is out! Heidi did fight for Mondo though.

Re: 10/28 show discussion **SPOILERS**

Originally Posted by Kip;4098505;

The thing is, Christopher was criticized and sent packing because the judges said his designs were clothing, not fashion. I think the same could be true of Gretchen's line. Another poster (sorry, I forget who) described Gretchen's collection as clothes you'd find at Kohl's. To me, that describes her clothes perfectly (and I like Kohl's, but I don't think that's what the stated purposed of the show is, and from the majority of comments here, I don't think that's what viewers want to see. If I wanted to see Kohl's-type clothes, I'd go to Kohl's.

I don't know what kind of clothes they sell at Kohl's (because, frankly, I've never been to Kohl's), but I think that Gretchen's collection was not necessarily RTW. Her cuts were assymmetric (like the hem of the shirt paired with the pants, which were gorgeous BTW). And the flowy dress had two different sleeves (one had a slash). And I agree with MK that her collection had a "cool girl" vibe (in my opionion, with the help of the styling and the music, and actually the casting, because I thought she had the best girls out there). And let's not discount accessories which is a multi-billion dollar industry (Louis Vuitton, Fendi, Prada, they all have stores devoted to accessories). She just "gets" it. She melded her aesthetic with what's coming up trend-wise. To reiterate, she "gets" it.

Re: 10/28 show discussion **SPOILERS**

Frankly, all of the final collections this season were very disappointing.

I have a feeling that expectations were too high for Mondo and Andy. The former played with colors and prints, and people probably expected that in his final collection. He still played with the prints, no doubt, but he stepped away from the colors and went with darker shades. I know he had a reason for this, but to me, that was really disappointing. I expected vibrance, but instead he made a drab collection color-wise. Design-wise, his work still was not up to par from his work on the show. In fact, I thought it was way worse than what he produced during the challenges. I'm sorry, I just didn't like his collection, and by no means was it a winning collection.

With Andy, I would argue that he had one of the most creative, if not the most, minds this season. Because of that, I was expecting something out there, something that we haven't seen that much of on PR. But he came out with a collection that failed to impress.

Then there's Gretchen. Honestly, I know I have her listed in my signature, but that's mostly because I appreciated the spice she brought to the show. I know almost everyone hated her, but for argument's sake, I thought she was more pleasant than Ivy. Oh, and I disliked Michael C., so that probably had something to do with it also.

But anyway, where was I? Yeah, I have her listed in my signature and did want her to win, but I wasn't expecting it at all. She crashed and burned towards the end of the season, and it was sort of shocking to even see her in the final. That caused my expectations to be lower than what they were for Mondo and Andy. Maybe that's why I liked her collection the best out of the three. It definitely was not at the level of past winning collections, and there were a few pieces of her's that I really did not like. But I did somewhat like a good majority of what she produced. That shouldn't retract from my initial statement though--her final collection was still disappointing. But compared to the others, her collection was the best IMO.

The way Nina and Michael lobbied for her, however, does trouble me. It paints them as hypocrites and liars. In past seasons, they have said that this competition isn't for catalogue, wearable clothes. But that's the exact argument they used in Gretchen's defense.

But that's the problem with long-running reality shows like this. Over time, a host or a judge will contradict themselves, and a number of fans will be up in arms about it. It happens often with shows like America's Next Top Model and The Apprentice, where a contestant is praised for somethin while another is eliminated for the same exact reason. (An example would be when Nik from Cycle 5 of ANTM was criticized for tilting her head a certain way in all of her photos. Next cycle, Danielle wins the entire thing even though she did exactly what Nik did. And yet, the judges were calling it her "signature look.") The point is, with so many episodes and so many contestants over so many seasons, certain mindsets change.

Should Nina and Michael be let go? Hell no. Do you remember when S6 aired and everyone hated it? One of the main reasons why people thought it sucked was because of the lack of Nina and Michael. They may make decisions that we don't agree with, but in the end, those two know their stuff and, most of the time, make the correct decision. They just made the wrong one this time for most people (not for me, however ).

Maybe it's because I actually liked Gretchen and agreed with the outcome, but I think this season has been the most superior of the Lifetime seasons by far. I know people complained about the amount of drama there was, but it's a reality show! The show should be about design first and foremost, but they're not going to have a show without that necessary drama. That could come from many things: the interaction of the contestants, twists that the producers throw in, someone fainting and getting taken to the hospital, a controversial judging decision, etc. If there weren't any excitement, we'd be watching people sew clothes and show off their work in a span of 90 minutes. It would basically be like watching S6 (and to a much lesser extent, S7) all over again.

Re: 10/28 show discussion **SPOILERS**

CrossingGuard, I appreciate your analysis of the final runway. It's refreshing and even with Gretchen as your favorite, you were very analytical of all three - something that is hard to do.

That said, I think what disappointed me more about Gretchen winning was not just that I felt her runway was weak, but that she actually TOLD the judges she was sick of challenges, yet she stayed over someone who would've sewn with a blindfold and walking on a tightrope walker that week.

When she said she was sick of challenges, I thought of McKell who was eliminated after that first design challenge to be one of the "finalists" (even though IMHO she was one because she designed SOMETHING for the show) who again would've leaped through hoops to make it past that first challenge.

The fact she said something that would've been the kiss of death for just about every designer (and yes, I even include Mondo and Andy), she stayed.

In my analysis of the show the MOMENT she stayed in spite of saying that (never mind the not taking criticism well part), I had a feeling she'd be the winner, even if I was hoping not. That was the moment I questioned what was going on with the show.

Hopefully next season this doesn't happen, and those who WANT to be there and would do the challenges and do them well will stay over someone who says they are sick of them and do mediochre work on top of it.

Re: 10/28 show discussion **SPOILERS**

Thanks jadewarlock! I'm shocked that someone actually read the whole thing. I often get too wordy for my own good.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you're making the point that Gretchen's statement should have signalled to the judges that she didn't want to be there more than the other contestants. But I don't think that her words should be construed that way. If I remember correctly, the judges had already told Gretchen that they did not like her piece from that particular challenge. After that, I think Gretchen said, "I'm just sick of these challenges," to try to find some sort of excuse as to why her piece wasn't up to par to her past work. I believe she was trying to convince the judges that the challenges did not allow her to show her true perspective as a designer and pleaded for them to advance her to the final in order for her to show who she really is as a designer in a complete collection. And I guess they listened, seeing as how she made the F3 and subseqently won the whole thing.

On a side note, she made that statement at the F5, when April was eliminated over her. I had a problem of my own, such as how you had a dilemma with Gretchen staying even after saying, "I'm just sick of these challenges." But my problem wasn't that; in fact, I agreed with the elimination. My problem was how the judges approached April's elimination. They finally brought up the point that all of April's clothes looked the same. They definitely did--look at pictures of her body of work, and they're almost all completely black with shear material used somewhere in the piece. But why the judges waited that long to get on April's case for that confused me. Why praise her for a long time, and then get on her case at the very end and subsequently eliminate her?

And on another side note, why was styling so important this year? Don't get me wrong, I believe that it is a major part to the complete look. But this season, the importance of styling was taken to a new level. You brought up McKell, who was eliminated first because her styling was off. This was a decision that I strongly disagreed with, because her actual piece was better than many others'. But I guess that elimination should have signalled a trend the whole season. Admittedly, part of why Gretchen won was her styling over Mondo's. I don't think it was the main reason, but if I remember correctly, it was an argument that was used. I do believe that Gretchen should have won for the complete look of her collection, but I don't think that the styling of the models should be all that important than, you know, the actual designs themselves.

Anyway, the point of bringing up all of those side notes was to say that I do agree with everyone, just for different reasons. I, too, have been upset with the judging this season. I may have ended up agreeing with the final decision of Gretchen winning, but there have been many times this season when the judging seemed fishy. So I also hope that the judging is fixed next season. They shouldn't get new judges, but Nina, Michael, and Heidi should get their mindsets straightened out so that fans won't be as upset as they have been this season.

Re: 10/28 show discussion **SPOILERS**

Project Runway is a reality show just like Dancing With the Stars or Top Chef but it is foremost a fashion design show. So like fashion, the judging criteria varies from season to season (and, maybe, even from challenge to challenge). Fashion is very subjective (like MK and NG said, you may like Chinese food, I may like Italian) and includes a broad spectrum (RTW to Haute Couture to Avant Garde, they are all valid choices). So the judging is always "in the moment" or "a feeling you get" or "Je ne sais quoi". Different variables may cause the judging to be different. There may be a fixed set of criteria to score the designers from highest to lowest, but the picking of the winner will always be subjective.

Re: 10/28 show discussion **SPOILERS**

Thanks jadewarlock! I'm shocked that someone actually read the whole thing. I often get too wordy for my own good.

You're welcome - I'm the same way sometimes as you've read in the past.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you're making the point that Gretchen's statement should have signalled to the judges that she didn't want to be there more than the other contestants. But I don't think that her words should be construed that way. If I remember correctly, the judges had already told Gretchen that they did not like her piece from that particular challenge. After that, I think Gretchen said, "I'm just sick of these challenges," to try to find some sort of excuse as to why her piece wasn't up to par to her past work. I believe she was trying to convince the judges that the challenges did not allow her to show her true perspective as a designer and pleaded for them to advance her to the final in order for her to show who she really is as a designer in a complete collection. And I guess they listened, seeing as how she made the F3 and subseqently won the whole thing.

It's an excuse true, but when you read the comment, it also implies that she just didn't want to do them anymore, yet they are required to compete.

If I were a judge, using this excuse would translate into "It's an excuse for doing weak work and she's not handling the stress of the challenges, which in some cases can reflect real life (i.e. quick turnaround), so we'll eliminate her" if there's another designer with better work. I'm not saying the eliminated contestant that week was deserving (April's wasn't the best), but I'd rather see someone get a second chance over anyone who uses this as an excuse.

On a side note, she made that statement at the F5, when April was eliminated over her. I had a problem of my own, such as how you had a dilemma with Gretchen staying even after saying, "I'm just sick of these challenges." But my problem wasn't that; in fact, I agreed with the elimination. My problem was how the judges approached April's elimination. They finally brought up the point that all of April's clothes looked the same. They definitely did--look at pictures of her body of work, and they're almost all completely black with shear material used somewhere in the piece. But why the judges waited that long to get on April's case for that confused me. Why praise her for a long time, and then get on her case at the very end and subsequently eliminate her?

IMHO - it was an excuse to keep Gretchen over April, who they'd see as having more time to grow. From what I've seen of the runway show, she had the better collection. It's similar to Mondo's second place IMHO - I feel that April was ousted because she didn't heed judge's comments about something or other, and they got offended.

Now, April's outfit could've been better yes, but I'd take some creativity over none, which is what Gretchen had that week. April should've had a second chance, and given the results of her show, IMHO only she'd been a more satisfying winner if they had to have a woman win over Mondo.

And on another side note, why was styling so important this year? Don't get me wrong, I believe that it is a major part to the complete look. But this season, the importance of styling was taken to a new level. You brought up McKell, who was eliminated first because her styling was off. This was a decision that I strongly disagreed with, because her actual piece was better than many others'. But I guess that elimination should have signalled a trend the whole season. Admittedly, part of why Gretchen won was her styling over Mondo's. I don't think it was the main reason, but if I remember correctly, it was an argument that was used. I do believe that Gretchen should have won for the complete look of her collection, but I don't think that the styling of the models should be all that important than, you know, the actual designs themselves.

Exactly - never mind that Gretchen on the fabric design challenge created the EXACT same style top and was deemed fine. In fact, I felt Gretchen's was more "revealing" the way it was styled in the front.

Funnily enough, Gretchen didn't adhere to the judge's critiques regarding styling - she just barely changed the styling from the week prior to the runway. Only two had the wedges (!), and the hair was quite similar as was makeup. But she was yet rewarded for it.

Anyway, the point of bringing up all of those side notes was to say that I do agree with everyone, just for different reasons. I, too, have been upset with the judging this season. I may have ended up agreeing with the final decision of Gretchen winning, but there have been many times this season when the judging seemed fishy. So I also hope that the judging is fixed next season. They shouldn't get new judges, but Nina, Michael, and Heidi should get their mindsets straightened out so that fans won't be as upset as they have been this season.

I think it'd be better if N&M maybe judged sporadically, i.e. every other challenge or such. That way, Heidi, who is the producer, gets a fair enough look at what people/designers/buyers are wanting, and that helps with the final decision of the show. Just having a narrow-minded POV look from a designer and a magazine editor doesn't show a whole slice of the design world.

BTW, and interesting note - I went by a Michael Kors store the other day, and he has a similar fashion frame right now as Gretchen's in his purses and clothing. I'm not surprised he voted the way he did now.