Tales is the ultimate generic series. Unremarkable, generic characters with average music and an okay but sometimes frustrating battle system (same can be said about Star Ocean) tied to inconsequential plots and terrible dialogue. It's only notable cause there's barely any other JRPGs coming to consoles anymore.

Honestly, I somewhat see where you're coming from, and I can even give you some of these, but honestly, Tales only became this fairly recently. I'd say that the characters didn't start becoming silly animu archetypes until Graces, and the drop in music quality happened around the same time (although I already said a bit about that in the Random VGM thread). I have to disagree with any knocks toward the battle mechanics though, to be honest. Graces had one of the most fun combat systems I have ever experienced. One you get a feel for the ins and outs, it only gets better, too. Tales has always been good with expanding their combat mechanics in any one game as it goes on, too.

The series has *always* used archetypes (Aeolus already summed that up). Hell, all of anime and gaming rests comfortably in a lot of this; it's boring and I've complained about that too (Young HIRO is a highschool-aged kid with a STRONG SENSE OF JUSTICE). I can't really defend the plot (besides Abyss and, I guess thematically, what Vesperia does), because they really ARE mixed bags. Sometimes a means to an end, something to enjoy than really invest or leave you talking. The characters, however, are usually bright and interesting to whatever some extent. Archetypes aside, they usually play their roles well and by the end you like a few of them. But shit, if the battle system ain't fun and provides a bit of action than I don't know what does (and it works for me, specifically, because I get pretty bored with turn-based unless its got some amusing gimmick to keep me interested).

What the Tales series does wrong, it does wrong (typically by creating a story that's been "done" and is often predictable for it, cookie-cutter characters). What it does right, it does right. Tales offers sidequests, a good battle system, various difficulties, fancy settings, and fun characters (skits play a good part in making conversations less story-based and contrived...surprisingly time for characters to just dick around or chat is ...entertaining).

I find Tales is just a good *fun* series.It's true it's not the BEST at everything it sets out to do, but it's fun and it delivers. To bash it to the ground like Lard has feels unwarranted (specifically since he's content on crapping on it without stating specifics --- and y'know, there's more to debate/agree/disagree with when you go so far for at least that). Pardon the objections coming your way otherwise Lard, but you're not really giving us a lot to work with either.

I also hope you don't think I'm bias. I've done plenty of bitching in this thread too. :P

And again, with how many series' have bit the dust (Breath of Fire, Seikens, Wild Arms, Star Ocean[?], SaGa, Grandia, Chrono, Suiko, Earthbound to name a few) Tales has been consistently there and for the most part *at least* "good" or better (or bad, depending on whatever taste for each title).

If they offer another "special" edition without the figure like they did for the first Xillia, I'll probably go for it. Symphonia was pretty much the only one in which I was willing to shell out extra money for swag.

I've enjoyed the story in most of the Tales games I've played. I like them because they take your typical "Save the world from impending doom" plot and, instead of focusing on the bigger picture, focus on how the characters in your band of mismatched heroes reacts to that bigger picture and the world they exist in. Hence the series' title. Even with a lot of archetypes (and honestly, I think Tales does a decent enough job being subtle about this compared to other series), I don't know another JRPG series as character-driven as Tales.

What are you talking about? Tales of characters have always been walking anime archetypes. Just looking at protagonists, all of them outside of Cless and Yuri have been some degree of Idiot Hero, and then there's the one that's terrible at cooking, there's the flat chested/busty female combo, the older/cooler/almost big brother male, the male rival, the klutz, the boy genius, the kawaii/genki little-girl, the pure-hearted maiden/female lead, etc. And that's not even touching the other clichés the series just loves to embrace like xenophobic ass hat Elves, hidden ninja villages, snowy town romances, and so on.

Sorry, archetype was a poor word to use here. What I mean by that is that in many of the Tales games I played before Graces, each character honest to goodness felt like they were their own character to me. (In other words I was seeing a person first, and a personality second.) In the more recent games, however, I've felt as if the characters were something more akin to a sort of "caricature," seeing them as a personality first and a person second. I've always admired the series for having some great antagonists that you genuinely understand as well.

Although, I started playing the Tales series when I was still in elementary school, so it could certainly be a case of my own observation changing over time, but my last playthrough of Tales of the Abyss was quite recent. I honestly felt that quite a few of those characters were actually quite fresh (a few silly conversations aside.)

@Dice: Is an acquired taste to enjoy the Tales series. I mean, is just one of those things a certain demographic demans and others just don't see the appeal of it.

That's all there is to it.

Also, EarthBound/Mother hasn't technically bite the dust. As far as Shigesato Itoi is concerned he feels that he did everything he could do with the series as a creator and if someone else wants to take responsability for Mother 4 they have his blessings. Granted, this was said a while ago but I doubt he feels different towards Mother 4 nowadays.

I understand where Lard's coming from, but in some cases I actually feel Tales of attempts to actively subvert archetypes.

Take Colette, for example.

She's a loving girl who doesn't want to hurt others by burdening them with her problems. She's always smiling, but hiding her emotional turmoil. These are not necessarily considered bad traits in Japanese culture, where you generally keep your problems to yourself. Hence why Yuna (FFX) is generally considered to be an idealized, traditional Japanese woman. That's what she was designed to be.

Except Symphonia quite bluntly takes on the subject, and the character archetype of "kind, suffering savior:" This is not healthy. It is not good for you, your relationships, or your physical and mental states. You're just destroying yourself and hurting those around you.

Obviously there are other characters and titles within the series that take their tropes more seriously, as well. Graces is a pretty bad offender.

@Dice: Is an acquired taste to enjoy the Tales series. I mean, is just one of those things a certain demographic demans and others just don't see the appeal of it.

That's all there is to it.

Also, EarthBound/Mother hasn't technically bite the dust. As far as Shigesato Itoi is concerned he feels that he did everything he could do with the series as a creator and if someone else wants to take responsability for Mother 4 they have his blessings. Granted, this was said a while ago but I doubt he feels different towards Mother 4 nowadays.

I'm not doubting people's personal tastes, and like I said, I've complained *plenty* about the series itself; and I'd only really recommend a few of them today.

I understand where Lard's coming from, but in some cases I actually feel Tales of attempts to actively subvert archetypes.

Take Colette, for example.

She's a loving girl who doesn't want to hurt others by burdening them with her problems. She's always smiling, but hiding her emotional turmoil. These are not necessarily considered bad traits in Japanese culture, where you generally keep your problems to yourself. Hence why Yuna (FFX) is generally considered to be an idealized, traditional Japanese woman. That's what she was designed to be.

Except Symphonia quite bluntly takes on the subject, and the character archetype of "kind, suffering savior:" This is not healthy. It is not good for you, your relationships, or your physical and mental states. You're just destroying yourself and hurting those around you.

Obviously there are other characters and titles within the series that take their tropes more seriously, as well. Graces is a pretty bad offender.

Good point on Colette; and it's true, her selflessness, while admirable, is treated as almost a bad thing when people would do anything to help her. I like Yuna a lot, indeed for that perfection -- but she's not terribly interesting until she decides to give the finger to her religion and confront/kill the spiritual and physical deities behind it. Tales often employs "the usual characters" and tries to give them the screen time that makes them more than meets the eye. We've talked about Sheena here for that: She's drawn as the "sexy type" but honestly never acts on it -- she's actually quite meek and demure and never plays into Zelos' flirting.

I gotta say, during my playthrough of Xillia, I wasn't having a lot of fun. I was secretly happy, because it meant making it easier to just ignore Jude's side of the story. But at some point during the final dungeon I feel like I "figured out" the battle system, and I suddenly got the urge to play through the game again "correctly." So I guess the environments and dungeons didn't bother me as much as I thought. It was just those things combined with a battle system that made me feel like the tougher battles were simply a matter of spamming resurrection and pineapple gels until I could deal enough damage to win.

So yeah, with reports of a better battle system and story, I'm super stoked for Xillia 2. I just don't really like the look of the CE to purchase it.

Xillia was so deceptive. it appears to have very open environments until you realize it is in fact just very open-like linear "tubes" that connected copy and pasted towns to one another.

So kind of like Final Fantasy X, just slightly more open?

FFX had pretty looking settings at least. Xillia was just hollowed out boxed canyons where you wouldn't even get so much as a freaking pond or a signpost to change up the scenery. Star Ocean 3, a game over ten years old, had BRILLIANT environments compared to Xillia's first run at it. Hell, even Graces did better by offering 'discoveries'.