QUESTIONS ARISING FROM 79th. MEETING – 16/6/17(the record of earlier meetings can be downloaded from the main Circulus page as can the version of Ciceronis Filius with illustrations added. The illustrated text of Genesis is available on the Genesis page)

Dishes ordered included agnus aromāticus (lamb masala), cicera aromātica (chana masala), melanogēna (eggplant) and sōlāna cum brassicā Pompēiānā (alu gobi), pānis Persicus and orӯza (rice). The restaurant as usual provided complimentary papadom, which could perhaps be Latinized as crustulum tenue (`thin biscuit’) though simply changing one vowel and using papadum moght be the neater solution. This was washed down with vīnum sanguineum or (pōtiō) oxygalactīna (lassi, a yoghurt-based drink). We ate with cochleār (spoon) and fuscinula (fork) rather than bacillī (chop-sticks).

Mike, who was attending after a long interval, explained that the requirement to study a third language in addition to English and Chinese, which John had thought applied to all HKUST students, was only for those doing business studies. Although an enthusiast for ecclesiastical Latin himself, Mike uses classical pronunciation in his own teaching, partly because it is is a simpler system to learn.

For those interested in Noah’s Ark, there is, of course, the Replica Ark in the theme park at Ma Wan constructed by the Kwok brothers before Thomas’s fall from grace. Zhang wei revealed that the owners had bought two Turkish Angora kittens from his own family as representatives of the cat species. The larger animals, however, are all models.

Noah's Ark - Ma Wan

Jeanne noted that the Hebrew word for arc, têbâh, is also used for the basket in which Moses was placed before being amidst the bullrushes. The basic meanng seems to be a floating container, of whatever size.

As far as we know no Circulus member actually attended the Latin Mass on Trinity Sunday which was previously advertised. In addition to the regular Latin services at Mary Help of Christians Church (inside Tang King Po School, 16 Tin Kwong Road, Ma Tau Wai), Jeanne believed that Mass was also said in Latin at Wah Yan College on Queen’s Road on Hong Kong Island. However, this is not mentioned on the Catholic Diocese website (https://www.catholic.org.hk/v2/cath_db/search.php?search=Latin+Mass) and Fr Ha has now confirmed that it is not open to members of the public.

Still on the topic of religion, John mentioned the argument that the Jews may only have become thorough monotheists after exposure to Zoraostrianism, the ancient Perisan religion, at the end of their Babylonian exile. Mike pointed out that it was Zoroastrians themselves who often claimed this and that Jews generally indignantly rejected the suggestion. There are, however, numerous parallels,many of which are listed in this Zoroastrian source: https://www.zarathushtra.com/z/article/biblicalconnection.htm Zarathustra, like Confucius and Buddha, all lived in the middle of the 1st millennium, in what Karl Jaspers termed the `Axial Age’, when the foundations of universalistic religions were being laid in different parts of Eurasia, though scholars continue to debate whether this concept is really meaningful (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axial_Age

It was also noted that at a later date there might have been a connection between Nestorian Chiritianity, the variely that spread into China in the 1st millennium A.D. It has been suggested that the iconography of Kwan Yin, the Buddist goddess (originally god!) of compassion, night have borrowed from that of the Virgin Mary.

Parsees – the name for Zoroastrians who left Iran to settle in Western India – have played an important role in Hong Kong History and two of the most famous, Hormusjee Mody (1838-1911), who played a major role in the endowment of Hong Kong Univeristy, and Robert Kotewall (1880-1949) have roads named after them. Jeanne explained that Kotewall, a businessman and Legco and then Exco member, who was actually of mixed Parseee, Chinese and European descent, produced the Chinese version of the Latin anthem sung at the inauguration of HKU in 1912. The Latin itself was the work of Cecil Clementi, a Hong Kong civil servant who was to become governor in 1925 and was chancellor of the university from then until 1947. The anthem was used on ceremonial occasions up to World War II and was revived, with Denman Fulller’s original music re-orchestrated by Chan Hing Yan, for the university’s 100th anniversary. It can now be heard at http://lib.hku.hk/muslib/HKUanthem.html, which also provides the text in all three languages. The Latin has one misprint - `fulst’ in line 4 should be `fluet.’

Mention was also made of the strange British institution of Inns of Court (Hospitia Cūriae), which started life as law schools and are now professional associations, to one of which (Lincon’s Inn, Inner Temple, Middle Temple and Gray’s Inn) all barristers in England and Wales must belong. Jeanne, who is herself a barrister as well as a tutor on Postgraduate Certificate in Law courses, explained that the formal requirement to dine a certain number of times in an Inn before being called to the bar is often circumvented by getting another lawyer to sign the attendance register in someone else’s name.

John recounted a visit to Las Vegas some years back on which he was struck by the miserable atmosphere inside the casino/hotel where he stayed. The visit was only made as it was part of a package tour that was the easiest way to see the Grand Canyon whilst based in San Francisco for a family wedding. The experience was not enhanced by John and his wife’s luggage failing to make the plane after they left it with a handler by the roadside. Mike explained that his brother actually worked in Las Vegas as software systems manager for a hotel but, like many other staff, he preferred to live elsewhere and commute to work.

Las Vegas

Also briefly touched upon again was the question of how to translate Native English-speaking Teacher. Magistra nātīva/Magister nātīvus linguae Anglicae would be the formal equivalent but we can perhaps coin the snappier NETUS and NETA. There was a qyery right at the end on the phrase `Don’t worry!’, which would be Nōlī sollicitārī or Nōlī inquiētārī.

Whilst downing the wine, we alsotouched on the stange notion among some Evangelical Chritians that Jesus drank nothing stronger than unfermented grape juice. Linked to this is the question of why, when (pace the Evangelicals) Jews and early Christians certainly used it) Mohammed banned alcohol – if indeed he did so because the Koran is not categorical on this issue and many Muslims take a relaxed view of the matter. John’s favourite quote is from an anonymous Kazach Muslim:

On the literary front Jeanne mentioned the extensive use of Latin tags in the 44 Scotland Street series by Alexander McAll Smith, who is better-known for the No 1 Ladies Detective Agency saga set in Botswana. She had also brought along a copy of Dictator, the third in Robert Haris’s excellent Cicero trilogy. John also recommended Harris’s Pompeii, which Tanya and he had read before their families visited the city in 2015.

NOTES[1] cognōscō (-ere, -nōvī, -nitum) is a literal translation of the original Hebrew, which is, however, used in many figurative senses, including the euphemistic `be intimate with’.[2]agricola is normally translated `farmer’ but is `literally `field-cultivator’[3]adeps, adipis c, `fat’, `lard’, is a literal translation of the Hebrew and in both languages the figurative sense `best part’ is intended.[4]nōnne (`not?’) introduces a question expecting the answer `yes’, num (`surely not?’) one expecting `no’ and the question suffix –ne used on its own produces an entirely open question.[5]foris, foris f , normally used in the plural (forēs, forum), means `gate’ or `opening.’ The adverbs forīs (`outside’, `from outside’ and forās (`to outside’), were originally alternative ablative and accusative forms of the noun,[6] This use of ad plus the accusative as an alternative to the dative with a verb of saying is post-classical. The latter construction would be less clear, as the Hebrew names lack case endings.[7] One Muslim tradition is that the brothers sacrificed for God to decide who would marry their beautiful sister Aclima.. Abel made a rich offering but Cain only grass and seeds and so Aclima was given to Abel and Cain, who was assigned a less attractive sibling, murdered him out of jealousy (see . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cain_and_Abel)[8] The normal form of the future perfect is operātus eris, with the auxiliary verb in the future rather than future perfect.

13 Dīxitque Cain ad Dominum: Major est inīquitās mea, quam ut veniam merear.[1] and--said Cain to lord greater is iniquity my than that forgiveness I-should-deserve14 Ecce ējicis mē hodiē ā faciē terræ, et ā faciē tuā abscondar et erō vagus see you-are-ejecting me today from face of-earth and from face your I-shall-be-hidden and I-will-be wandereret profugus in terrā: omnis[2]igitur quī invēnerit mē, occīdet mē.and fugitive on earth each therefore who will-have-found me will-kill me15 Dīxitque eī Dominus: Nēquāquam ita fīet: sed omnis qui occīderit Cain, and-said to-him lord in-no-way thus it-will-happen but each who will-have-killed Cainseptuplum pūniētur. Posuitque Dominus Cain signum, ut nōn interficeret eum omnisseven-fold will-be-punished and-placed lord on-Cain mark so-that not should-kill him eachqui invēnisset eum.who would-have-found him16 Ēgressusque Cain ā faciē Dominī, habitāvit profugus in terrā ad orientālemand-after-going-out Cain from face of-lord he-lived (as) fugitive in land towards eastplagam[3]Ēden.tract of-Eden 17 Cognōvit autem Cain uxōrem suam,[4]quæ concēpit, et peperit Henoch: et ædificāvit Knew moreover Cain wife his who conceived and bore Henoch and builtcīvitātem, vocāvitque nōmen ejus ex nōmine filiī suī, Henoch.city and-called name of-it from name of-son his Henoch18 Porrō Henoch genuit Irad, et Irad genuit Maviaël, et Maviaël genuit Mathusaël, et afterwards Henoch fathered Irad and Irad fathered Maviaël and Maviaël fathered Mathusaël andMathusaël genuit Lamech.Mathusaël fathered Lamech19 Quī accēpit duās uxōrēs, nōmen ūnī Ada, et nōmen alterī Sella. who received two wives name for-one Ada and name for-other Sella20 Genuitque Ada Jabel,[5]quī fuit pater habitantium in tentōriīs, atque pāstōrum. and-bore Ada Jabel who was father of-those-living in tents and of-shepherds21 Et nōmen frātris ejus Jubal: ipse fuit pater canentium citharā et orgānō.[6] and name of-father his Jubal he-himself was father of-those-playing cithara and organ22 Sella quoque genuit Tubalcain, quī fuit malleātor et faber in cūncta opera æris Sella also bore Tubalcain who was hammerer and craftsman for all works of-bronzeet ferrī. Soror vero Tubalcain, Noëma.and of-iron sister indeed of-Tubalcain Noëma23 Dīxitque Lamech uxōribus suīs Adæ et Sellæ: [Audīte vōcem meam, uxōrēs and-said Lamech to-wives his Ada and Sella hear voice my wivesLamech; auscultāte sermōnem meum: quoniam occīdī virum in vulnus meum, etof-Lamech hear speech my since I-have-killed man to wound my andadolēscentulum in livōrem meum.[7]youth to hurt my24 Septuplum ultiō dabitur dē Cain: dē Lamech vērō septuāgies septies.[8]] sevenfold revenge will-be-given concerning Cain concerning Lamech indeed seventy-times seven-times[1] A comparative adjective followed by quam ut and the subjunctive is the equivalent of English `too’ plus `adjective followed by the infinitive (`my iniquity is too great to deserve forgiveness’)[2] The KJV has `whosoever’, one of the senses of the Hebrew word, which also means `all’, `each’[3]plaga, -ae f (tract of land) has to be distinguished from plāga (a blow, wound).[4] According to the Book of Jubilees (a Jewish work not considered canonical by most Christian denominations – see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Jubilees ), Cain’s wife and sister was called Awan. The son’s name is usually written `Enoch’ in English rather than `Henoch’.[5] Although Ada and Jabel are both uninflected nouns, the word order indicates makes it clear that Ada is the subject and Jabel the object. In the same way, Sella is the subject of the first clause in v.22[6] Latin uses canō/cantō (`sing’) with the ablative of words for string or wind instruments where English would have `play’ and a direct object. The word cithara is the origin of English `guitar’ but it resembled a small harp, which is the word used by KJV.[7] In classical Latin līvor, līvōris m, like chăbûrâh in the original Hebrew, has the basic meaning of `bruise’, `bluishness.’ The Latin was often also used in the sense `envy’, `ill-will’ but here it appears to mean `hurt’, `wound’, which are additional senses of the Hebrew word. The KJV also uses `hurt.’ The whole sentence is obscure as in vulnus meum might mean either `in retaliation for a wound to me’ or `resulting in a wound to me.’ [8] The Latin, like the KJC, is most naturally taken to mean that Lamech’s own death will be avenged 70 times compared with 7 times for Cain, which is consistent with God’s assurance to Cain in verse 15. However the original Hebrew might mean either this or that Lamech will himself take revenge for a non-fatal injury and some modern translators take it that way.

NOTES[1]prōcreāssent is a contraction of prōcreāvissent (pluperfect subjunctive).[2] The phrase fīliī Deī (Hebrew beney `elohim ) was understood as referring to fallen angels who mated with human beings and produced a race of giants.. An alternative explanation, argued for by St. Augustine of Hippo in the 5th century and now accepted by most biblical scholars, is that they were the descendants of Seth who interbred with those of Cain. For a detailed presentation of the evidence see http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Genesis-6-Sons-of-God[3] In classical Latin mīlia (thousands) is used with a genitive of the item being counted but other numbers are treated as indeclinable adjectives so the phrase would be centum vīgintī annī[4] As this is a Greek noun, the final –es has a short vowel.[5]ā saeculō, literally `from an age’ probably means here `in olden days’. The Hebrew phrase is olam olam. which can mean both `in ancient time’ and `for ever’. Elsewhere the Vulgate also uses the phrase in saeculum to mean `for ever’[6] Unless the genitive plural hominum is a mistake for the accusative hominem (the case used in the Greek), this should be understood as `[the race] of men.’[7]generātiōnēs (generations, births) is a literal translation of the Hebrew but the meaning here seems to be (family) history.