Swedish Pinata of Death

Jubilee wrote:If you want to be a writer and your dream is to write an already established property you suck and ive got no time for your work.

I dunno about anyone else, but my dream was always, always, to write my OWN characters.

However, at least back when I still had the dream, it simply was not possible to write comics about your own characters right off the bat. You had to earn your spurs first, by writing for the established characters. Once you proved yourself that way for a long time, they might let you make up your own characters. But not on Day 1.

In those days, writing for the existing characters was how you were supposed to begin. Now, it seems like things have flipped on their heads, and people earn their spurs, strangely, by doing their own thing with small indy companies, and then get hired by DC or Marvel after "proving themselves." I'm not quite sure what's in it for the writers, though, unless they really want to write a particular property, because to me, writing something like Batman or Supergirl would be a means to an end... with doing my own property being the goal.

Swedish Pinata of Death

Jubilee wrote:If you want to be a writer and your dream is to write an already established property you suck and ive got no time for your work.

I dunno about anyone else, but my dream was always, always, to write my OWN characters.

However, at least back when I still had the dream, it simply was not possible to write comics about your own characters right off the bat. You had to earn your spurs first, by writing for the established characters. Once you proved yourself that way for a long time, they might let you make up your own characters. But not on Day 1.

In those days, writing for the existing characters was how you were supposed to begin. Now, it seems like things have flipped on their heads, and people earn their spurs, strangely, by doing their own thing with small indy companies, and then get hired by DC or Marvel after "proving themselves." I'm not quite sure what's in it for the writers, though, unless they really want to write a particular property, because to me, writing something like Batman or Supergirl would be a means to an end... with doing my own property being the goal.

Rain Partier

To me the term "fan fiction" carries on a different connotation that a professional who writes already established characters. If you really want to be obtuse there isn't a difference, but honestly the level of quality of most fan fiction, the blatant wish fulfillment, mary sueness all that stuff it's an insult really. Fan fiction generally refers to work that is of terrible quality far below professional standards.

Rain Partier

To me the term "fan fiction" carries on a different connotation that a professional who writes already established characters. If you really want to be obtuse there isn't a difference, but honestly the level of quality of most fan fiction, the blatant wish fulfillment, mary sueness all that stuff it's an insult really. Fan fiction generally refers to work that is of terrible quality far below professional standards.

Hopscotch

Rockman wrote:To me the term "fan fiction" carries on a different connotation that a professional who writes already established characters. If you really want to be obtuse there isn't a difference, but honestly the level of quality of most fan fiction, the blatant wish fulfillment, mary sueness all that stuff it's an insult really.

So, blatant wish fulfillment and Mary Sue-ness is an insult, you say?? Well, that's what's you've been getting from the DCU since Geoff Johns took over!

1. Geoff Johns LOVES Hal Jordan!! So, Hal Jordan suddenly gets cleared of ALL the wrong he's done! That time he went crazy and killed the rest of the GL Corps?? A Yellow Alien Fear Bug made him do it!! And that time he was shacking up with Arisia, who may have been of a... questionably young age?? Well, it suddenly turns out that, where she comes from, she's "Really Seven Hundred Years Old"!!

Let not one mote of imperfection or indiscretion continue to stain the history of Geoff's pal Hal! Retcon Jordan until he's clean of all such things!

2. And speaking of scrubbing a former GL of all past sins, Geoff Johns LOVES Sinestro!! So let's pardon him of ALL his previous attempts to kill people, and try to think of him as a GOOD guy! Never mind that the character was built from the ground up to be Obviously Evil, what with his mustache made for twirling! Never mind that HIS VERY NAME is based on the word "SINISTER"! Why, Geoff can even end his run of Green Lantern by having Hal tell the one guy who's tried to kill him and his GL allies more often than practically anyone else that he's Hal's "Best Friend!"

3. Geoff Johns LOVES Black Adam!! So let's have him inexplicably beat up all the heroes of the DCU, just because Geoff Johns LOVES Black Adam!! And let's allow him to get away with all that, let him get his powers back, and his own country to run!!

4. Geoff Johns LOVES Emoboy Prime!! So let's have him beat up all the heroes of the DCU, too, just because Geoff Johns LOVES Emoboy Prime!!

5. And Barry Allen?? HOO BOY, does Geoff Johns LOVE Barry Allen!! So it's time to kick that Wally West guy the Flash fans have loved for 2 decades to the curb, 'cause Barry's BACK!! Not only that, but everyone in the DC Universe MUST rush in to sing their highest hosannas to the newly anointed Saint Barry!! Everyone, that is, except Bart Allen, Barry's own grandson, one of the people who WOULD worship Barry when written correctly. But hey, SOMEbody's got to play the Straw Critic who has to learn to love the Anointed One, and since everyone else is uncharacteristically lining up to kiss Saint Barry's ring, what's one more blatant piece of Character Derailment, right?? Why, even the JSA, who have spent MUCH more time saving the world/universe than Mr. Allen, are inexplicably sitting around, extolling the virtues of Saint Barry!

Just so you know, this is all being done to manipulate you Wally fans into forgetting about Mr. West, and transferring all your Flash fandom to Barry Allen, so you can love him as much as Geoff Johns does!! Kewl, huh??

Seriously, though: Make sure you LOVE Saint Barry, DAMM*T!! We ain't trumping him up like this for our health!!

This is exactly what I'm talking about when I said that you guys have been getting fan fiction from Dan and the Gang all this time. Geoff in particular has been serving you the same sort of fan fiction wish fulfillment and Mary Sue-ness that you claim is an insult; you've just failed to realize it.

Hopscotch

Rockman wrote:To me the term "fan fiction" carries on a different connotation that a professional who writes already established characters. If you really want to be obtuse there isn't a difference, but honestly the level of quality of most fan fiction, the blatant wish fulfillment, mary sueness all that stuff it's an insult really.

So, blatant wish fulfillment and Mary Sue-ness is an insult, you say?? Well, that's what's you've been getting from the DCU since Geoff Johns took over!

1. Geoff Johns LOVES Hal Jordan!! So, Hal Jordan suddenly gets cleared of ALL the wrong he's done! That time he went crazy and killed the rest of the GL Corps?? A Yellow Alien Fear Bug made him do it!! And that time he was shacking up with Arisia, who may have been of a... questionably young age?? Well, it suddenly turns out that, where she comes from, she's "Really Seven Hundred Years Old"!!

Let not one mote of imperfection or indiscretion continue to stain the history of Geoff's pal Hal! Retcon Jordan until he's clean of all such things!

2. And speaking of scrubbing a former GL of all past sins, Geoff Johns LOVES Sinestro!! So let's pardon him of ALL his previous attempts to kill people, and try to think of him as a GOOD guy! Never mind that the character was built from the ground up to be Obviously Evil, what with his mustache made for twirling! Never mind that HIS VERY NAME is based on the word "SINISTER"! Why, Geoff can even end his run of Green Lantern by having Hal tell the one guy who's tried to kill him and his GL allies more often than practically anyone else that he's Hal's "Best Friend!"

3. Geoff Johns LOVES Black Adam!! So let's have him inexplicably beat up all the heroes of the DCU, just because Geoff Johns LOVES Black Adam!! And let's allow him to get away with all that, let him get his powers back, and his own country to run!!

4. Geoff Johns LOVES Emoboy Prime!! So let's have him beat up all the heroes of the DCU, too, just because Geoff Johns LOVES Emoboy Prime!!

5. And Barry Allen?? HOO BOY, does Geoff Johns LOVE Barry Allen!! So it's time to kick that Wally West guy the Flash fans have loved for 2 decades to the curb, 'cause Barry's BACK!! Not only that, but everyone in the DC Universe MUST rush in to sing their highest hosannas to the newly anointed Saint Barry!! Everyone, that is, except Bart Allen, Barry's own grandson, one of the people who WOULD worship Barry when written correctly. But hey, SOMEbody's got to play the Straw Critic who has to learn to love the Anointed One, and since everyone else is uncharacteristically lining up to kiss Saint Barry's ring, what's one more blatant piece of Character Derailment, right?? Why, even the JSA, who have spent MUCH more time saving the world/universe than Mr. Allen, are inexplicably sitting around, extolling the virtues of Saint Barry!

Just so you know, this is all being done to manipulate you Wally fans into forgetting about Mr. West, and transferring all your Flash fandom to Barry Allen, so you can love him as much as Geoff Johns does!! Kewl, huh??

Seriously, though: Make sure you LOVE Saint Barry, DAMM*T!! We ain't trumping him up like this for our health!!

This is exactly what I'm talking about when I said that you guys have been getting fan fiction from Dan and the Gang all this time. Geoff in particular has been serving you the same sort of fan fiction wish fulfillment and Mary Sue-ness that you claim is an insult; you've just failed to realize it.

Hopscotch

My point remains. What Dan and the Gang -- and ESPECIALLY Geoff -- have been serving you is indeed fan fiction. BAD fan fiction, at that, since their material contains some of the worst excesses of low-level fanfic, which you yourself mentioned.

"Due to editors not being willing or able to fight back against a brand-name star, the resulting new material from an old creator can end up being lower-quality. Sometimes very much lower, as the author's bad habits, Mary Sues, and Author Appeals come to the fore (sometimes to the horrified shock of the creator's fanbase), where before, such excesses would be quickly and ruthlessly excised. The creators get away with it because it'll sell anyway, and we don't want to risk pissing him off and having him bolt for another company. "

Hopscotch

My point remains. What Dan and the Gang -- and ESPECIALLY Geoff -- have been serving you is indeed fan fiction. BAD fan fiction, at that, since their material contains some of the worst excesses of low-level fanfic, which you yourself mentioned.

"Due to editors not being willing or able to fight back against a brand-name star, the resulting new material from an old creator can end up being lower-quality. Sometimes very much lower, as the author's bad habits, Mary Sues, and Author Appeals come to the fore (sometimes to the horrified shock of the creator's fanbase), where before, such excesses would be quickly and ruthlessly excised. The creators get away with it because it'll sell anyway, and we don't want to risk pissing him off and having him bolt for another company. "

Rain Partier

Punchy wrote:No matter what your opinion of Geoff Johns' work, it is not fan-fiction because he is getting paid to do it by the company that legally has the right to use those characters.

He's not a fan, he's a professional. This is not a matter of opinion, it's fact.

you're getting into semantics that's the problem.

Fan-fiction is best served as a term to describe quality not the "legitimacy" of the work.

I haven't read anything from Geoff Johns since I think infinite crisis, whichever one had the superbro prime wall punch thing. It was not good. He put his sense of nostalgia before telling a coherent and compelling story he put being a fan of these characters before creating something new and exciting. Imo the work I've read of his at DC is fanfiction regardless if he's getting paid for it or not.

Also Herald I have no idea why you keep telling me about what Dan Didio and the gang are selling me. I haven't bought a DC book in years. I regretfully tried the JMS titles when he first switched over, that was a bad choice. Aside from that I've never purchased a large amount of DC comics.

Rain Partier

Punchy wrote:No matter what your opinion of Geoff Johns' work, it is not fan-fiction because he is getting paid to do it by the company that legally has the right to use those characters.

He's not a fan, he's a professional. This is not a matter of opinion, it's fact.

you're getting into semantics that's the problem.

Fan-fiction is best served as a term to describe quality not the "legitimacy" of the work.

I haven't read anything from Geoff Johns since I think infinite crisis, whichever one had the superbro prime wall punch thing. It was not good. He put his sense of nostalgia before telling a coherent and compelling story he put being a fan of these characters before creating something new and exciting. Imo the work I've read of his at DC is fanfiction regardless if he's getting paid for it or not.

Also Herald I have no idea why you keep telling me about what Dan Didio and the gang are selling me. I haven't bought a DC book in years. I regretfully tried the JMS titles when he first switched over, that was a bad choice. Aside from that I've never purchased a large amount of DC comics.

Rain Partier

Would it matter to some if someone "legitimized" GoT fan-work by paying them? No that's a pointless distinction. Let your individual sense of quality tell you whether or not it is worth reading or not.

Many people disliked Sanderson's work on the WoT, I enjoyed it. He's obviously a fan, but I don't care because he entertained me and put some much needed energy into a series which had ground to halt two books before.

Obviously Sanderson didn't do as much work as Jordan did in creating this complex and fully realized world, but I wouldn't go around tossing the word lazy at him or anyone who can tell a good story with other people's characters. I do think it is harder, but just because you don't do things the hard way doesn't mean you're lazy.

Rain Partier

Would it matter to some if someone "legitimized" GoT fan-work by paying them? No that's a pointless distinction. Let your individual sense of quality tell you whether or not it is worth reading or not.

Many people disliked Sanderson's work on the WoT, I enjoyed it. He's obviously a fan, but I don't care because he entertained me and put some much needed energy into a series which had ground to halt two books before.

Obviously Sanderson didn't do as much work as Jordan did in creating this complex and fully realized world, but I wouldn't go around tossing the word lazy at him or anyone who can tell a good story with other people's characters. I do think it is harder, but just because you don't do things the hard way doesn't mean you're lazy.

Staff Writer

Rockman wrote:Would it matter to some if someone "legitimized" GoT fan-work by paying them? No that's a pointless distinction. Let your individual sense of quality tell you whether or not it is worth reading or not.

Many people disliked Sanderson's work on the WoT, I enjoyed it. He's obviously a fan, but I don't care because he entertained me and put some much needed energy into a series which had ground to halt two books before.

Obviously Sanderson didn't do as much work as Jordan did in creating this complex and fully realized world, but I wouldn't go around tossing the word lazy at him or anyone who can tell a good story with other people's characters. I do think it is harder, but just because you don't do things the hard way doesn't mean you're lazy.

If the person paying them was George RR Martin then yes.

Fan-fic is not a label of quality, it is fiction written by fans in an unofficial capacity.

I'm not getting into semantics, I just know the definition.

Nobody who is paid by Marvel or DC to write a comic is writing fan-fic.

Staff Writer

Rockman wrote:Would it matter to some if someone "legitimized" GoT fan-work by paying them? No that's a pointless distinction. Let your individual sense of quality tell you whether or not it is worth reading or not.

Many people disliked Sanderson's work on the WoT, I enjoyed it. He's obviously a fan, but I don't care because he entertained me and put some much needed energy into a series which had ground to halt two books before.

Obviously Sanderson didn't do as much work as Jordan did in creating this complex and fully realized world, but I wouldn't go around tossing the word lazy at him or anyone who can tell a good story with other people's characters. I do think it is harder, but just because you don't do things the hard way doesn't mean you're lazy.

If the person paying them was George RR Martin then yes.

Fan-fic is not a label of quality, it is fiction written by fans in an unofficial capacity.

I'm not getting into semantics, I just know the definition.

Nobody who is paid by Marvel or DC to write a comic is writing fan-fic.