I think so too. I bet you'd still get a lot of pros playing C tiers though, regardless of added cash and such. Some are motivated more by proximity than money. But I guess you could put them all in a super am division or something.

irban wrote:I think so too. I bet you'd still get a lot of pros playing C tiers though, regardless of added cash and such. Some are motivated more by proximity than money. But I guess you could put them all in a super am division or something.

Do you mean if we change the divisions as I suggested? If so then the pro's couldn't play C tiers. If you are talking about just the lowering entry fees, then ya I agree. You will still get some playing the C tiers being driven by location, etc. Thats fine. If the entry fee's are lower you will still end up with bigger fields and IMO more happy and competitive fields. (Also, if you take the "cashing" crap out of turning pro, you would get more advanced players playing up.)

Changing the requirement on what makes someone a "Pro" is an easy fix, and something that really needs to be done badly IMO.

One of the things I've said is that we have to protect pros from themselves. They burn themselves out whether it be from playing too many tournaments or losing too much money. I actually love the idea of no pros at C tiers. After all, the whole tier status is basically about money for pros. The biggest thing Jared is right about is the opposing solutions for pros and ams. What's good for one is bad for the other.

This might be peripherally and/or tangentially related to this thread. Quoted from DGCR:

The folks at Discstalker are running some one day tournaments in the Atlanta area with a low entry fee ($15.00 entry fee for non-Pros) and a "Winners Circle" option.

From their web site:

"All amateur competition is trophy only, there will be no merchandise payout, intermediate and advanced divisions are allowed to buy into the winners circle competition for cash payout instead of merchandise payout. Open players are also allowed to buy into the winners circle competition for open.

Winners circle payout depth will be 45% for intermediate, 35% for advanced and 25% for open and we will use standard PDGA payout tables to determine the payouts.

Any sponsorship money raised will be split evenly into the Winners Circles payout amounts for each division unless someone specifically designates it for a specific division."

grodney wrote:"All amateur competition is trophy only, there will be no merchandise payout, intermediate and advanced divisions are allowed to buy into the winners circle competition for cash payout instead of merchandise payout. Open players are also allowed to buy into the winners circle competition for open.

Winners circle payout depth will be 45% for intermediate, 35% for advanced and 25% for open and we will use standard PDGA payout tables to determine the payouts. "

This format would basically encourage sandbagging, play down and still get cash.

I think idea of amatuers playing for trophy only is catching on. More what they call "true amateur" where they have big players packs but no payout. I think this is key to really building disc golf.

The winners circle thing seems pretty hokey to me. I agree I think it encourages sandbagging. Now if they had one payout for everyone where ams could compete score wise vs the pros for a payout that would be cool. That way if an am would do well in pro they still could get something. It should still be relatively small but would be a cool thing for ams. Not just competing amongst themselves, while kinda forcing them to pay attention to how the pro's are doing.

jjpitt29 wrote:I think idea of amatuers playing for trophy only is catching on. More what they call "true amateur" where they have big players packs but no payout. I think this is key to really building disc golf.

The winners circle thing seems pretty hokey to me. I agree I think it encourages sandbagging. Now if they had one payout for everyone where ams could compete score wise vs the pros for a payout that would be cool. That way if an am would do well in pro they still could get something. It should still be relatively small but would be a cool thing for ams. Not just competing amongst themselves, while kinda forcing them to pay attention to how the pro's are doing.

If you were to pit the ams vs the pros score wise, I think you would need some sort of a handicap. I know in the DSM Buschwackers, there is a robust system used for the handicap based on the last six weeks of play vs par and a couple of other things. I also recall the golf uses a handicap system as well, but I am certainly not familiar with how it is set up.

Trophy only is the worst. The worst! I don't want the garbage that typically comes in a players pack. Sometimes they're awesome, the other 70% of the time they're poorly designed with little thought put into it, mearly satisfying a requirement. I don't need any more minis, dx plastic, or sponsor shirts...I have enough. I will never go back to am worlds because they STOLE our money. 60k. No payouts. No warning. I expect that nothing is free, I want people to make money for their time, and i dont make a fuss about paying a reasonable amount for commodities and service. But that just doesn't add up. I thought 15% was the max a td could take for services. Here they took it all. And pretend that most prizes werent donated in the first place. AND i never got my shirt with the your name that falls off the second day you wore it. Nobody ever said, hey let's have a tournament to grow the sport. Not friggin once. It was always to see who's the best that day amongst your peers, and let's put something on it so you have something to lose/something to fight for. Trophy only "true amatuers" is a lie. So no more companies sponsoring ams? Hmmm. I certainly don't need more trophies with an ultimate Frisbee player on them. I'm OK going home empty handed. I am not OK going home empty handed when I beat most/all players on the field.

To continue ranting: without payouts there won't be local suppliers. Am payouts are where the small business end of disc golf makes its profit. And in turn, sponsor players, host tournaments, donate time and cash to local courses.