here and a few other places the buddha talks about the body in reference to jhana, posted below is the one at MN 39. so what do we make of this? are we to keep the entire body in mind throughout meditation or what?

"Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without — would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of withdrawal. There's nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal.

"Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters and remains in the second jhana: rapture and pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought and evaluation — internal assurance. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of composure. Just like a lake with spring-water welling up from within, having no inflow from the east, west, north, or south, and with the skies supplying abundant showers time and again, so that the cool fount of water welling up from within the lake would permeate and pervade, suffuse and fill it with cool waters, there being no part of the lake unpervaded by the cool waters; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of composure. There's nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born of composure.

"And furthermore, with the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture. Just as in a lotus pond, some of the lotuses, born and growing in the water, stay immersed in the water and flourish without standing up out of the water, so that they are permeated and pervaded, suffused and filled with cool water from their roots to their tips, and nothing of those lotuses would be unpervaded with cool water; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture. There's nothing of his entire body unpervaded with pleasure divested of rapture.

"And furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure and stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation and distress — he enters and remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity and mindfulness, neither-pleasure nor stress. He sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. Just as if a man were sitting covered from head to foot with a white cloth so that there would be no part of his body to which the white cloth did not extend; even so, the monk sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. There's nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness."

The best simile I've heard is of a candle, which burns in one spot but casts light on everything around it; in the same way, we should direct our samadhi at one thing (our breath) while the "light" of our concentration touches everything.

Gain and loss, status and disgrace, censure and praise, pleasure and pain:these conditions among human beings are inconstant,impermanent, subject to change.

LonesomeYogurt wrote:The best simile I've heard is of a candle, which burns in one spot but casts light on everything around it; in the same way, we should direct our samadhi at one thing (our breath) while the "light" of our concentration touches everything.

how do we work with one pointedness of mind then? either i'm watching one point, or many points. i suppose with practice one could see the body as this single point?

lojong1 wrote: "I'm not sure this 'single point' idea is helpful."[for entering first jhana.] -- sorry i left that out.And behold, it's not a 1st jhana factor in this sutta anyway! What would yous do without me!

lojong1 wrote:lojong1 wrote: "I'm not sure this 'single point' idea is helpful."[for entering first jhana.] -- sorry i left that out.And behold, it's not a 1st jhana factor in this sutta anyway! What would yous do without me!

lojong1 wrote:lojong1 wrote: "I'm not sure this 'single point' idea is helpful."[for entering first jhana.] -- sorry i left that out.And behold, it's not a 1st jhana factor in this sutta anyway! What would yous do without me!

The suttas use the term kāya in many fashions, both literal and idiomatic.

What you see in these "body" pericopes would be exemplified for example by "... with the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body." (pītiyā ca virāgā upekkhako ca viharati sato sampajāno, sukhañca kāyena paṭisaṃvedeti).

The standard translations render the kāyena as a regular instrumental (ie "with the" to denote the MEANS by which one experiences). One then needs to ask - which body is intended to be the instrument, the physical body (literal reading) or the mental body (also a literal reading) or perhaps some idiomatic meaning?

In fact, if you consult the Pali grammars, the -ena inflection is not limited to such instrumental of MEANS. It is also used to convey the sense of the instrumental of MANNER (see Warder p.45 where he in fact identifies "kāyena paṭisaṃvedeti" as carrying this sense). What happens when you read this as such will mean that the pleasure of the 3rd Jhana is experienced "bodily".

My point is that in the suttas, "bodily" as a manner of experience, is not limited to the 5 physical senses of vision, hearing, olfaction, taste and tactility, unlike the Abhidhamma. The mind also experiences feelings "bodily", namely when it feels hedonic tone (pleasure, pain, neither pleasure-nor-pain) - MN 148. The mental (cetasika) experience comes later when one feels the affective tone (joy, sadness, equanimity).

As for the body similes, ask yourself this about eg rapture and pleasure born of concentration. Can the "body" as a sense faculty establish contact with anything other than tactility? See MN 43.

In fact, even if you absolutely deny the plain meaning of vivicceva kāmehi (quite secluded from the kāmā), take a look at AN 9.37, where it's stated that in the jhanas and formless attainments, one does not experience the base where 5 sense objects are present. There was a discussion here -

Ven T's translation of AN 9.37 is bad on several scores, and I don't think it was mere carelessness. That post addresses the grammatical error; another error was Ven T's temporal displacement of the "still as a result of release, contented as a result of standing still, and as a result of contentment one is not agitated" as the fruit of gnosis, whereas everywhere else in the suttas, it is the precursor to gnosis (eg SN 22.53).

It is good sometimes to doubt, especially when one notices that some translations have been so badly done, just to press into service the pet theory that one promotes.

alan... wrote:here and a few other places the buddha talks about the body in reference to jhana, posted below is the one at MN 39. so what do we make of this? are we to keep the entire body in mind throughout meditation or what?

You can find detailed instructions in writings of Acharn Lee Dhammadharo:

"When mindfulness saturates the body the way flame saturates every thread in the mantle of a Coleman lantern, the elements throughout the body work together like a group of people working together on a job: Each person helps a little here and there, and in no time at all — almost effortlessly — the job is done. Just as the mantle of a Coleman lantern whose every thread is soaked in flame becomes light, white, and dazzling, so if you soak your mind in mindfulness until it's aware of the entire body, both the body and mind become buoyant. When you think using the power of mindfulness, your sense of the body will immediately become thoroughly bright, helping to develop both body and mind. You'll be able to sit or stand for long periods of time without getting tired, to walk for great distances without getting fatigued, to go for unusually long periods of time on just a little food without getting hungry, or to go without food and sleep altogether for several days running without losing energy."

Sylvester wrote:The suttas use the term kāya in many fashions, both literal and idiomatic.

What you see in these "body" pericopes would be exemplified for example by "... with the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body." (pītiyā ca virāgā upekkhako ca viharati sato sampajāno, sukhañca kāyena paṭisaṃvedeti).

The standard translations render the kāyena as a regular instrumental (ie "with the" to denote the MEANS by which one experiences). One then needs to ask - which body is intended to be the instrument, the physical body (literal reading) or the mental body (also a literal reading) or perhaps some idiomatic meaning?

Why would the Buddha be so misleading with his fourth jhana simile?

"And furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. He sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. Just as if a man were sitting covered from head to foot with a white cloth so that there would be no part of his body to which the white cloth did not extend; even so, the monk sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness.

"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

alan... wrote:here and a few other places the buddha talks about the body in reference to jhana, posted below is the one at MN 39. so what do we make of this? are we to keep the entire body in mind throughout meditation or what?

"Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without — would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of withdrawal. There's nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal.

"Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters and remains in the second jhana: rapture and pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought and evaluation — internal assurance. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of composure. Just like a lake with spring-water welling up from within, having no inflow from the east, west, north, or south, and with the skies supplying abundant showers time and again, so that the cool fount of water welling up from within the lake would permeate and pervade, suffuse and fill it with cool waters, there being no part of the lake unpervaded by the cool waters; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of composure. There's nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born of composure.

"And furthermore, with the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture. Just as in a lotus pond, some of the lotuses, born and growing in the water, stay immersed in the water and flourish without standing up out of the water, so that they are permeated and pervaded, suffused and filled with cool water from their roots to their tips, and nothing of those lotuses would be unpervaded with cool water; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture. There's nothing of his entire body unpervaded with pleasure divested of rapture.

"And furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure and stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation and distress — he enters and remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity and mindfulness, neither-pleasure nor stress. He sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. Just as if a man were sitting covered from head to foot with a white cloth so that there would be no part of his body to which the white cloth did not extend; even so, the monk sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. There's nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness."

I find these similes very helpful to reflect on in practice. I note that there are decreasing levels of 'activity' as we progress through. In the first, there's a man kneading moistened bath powder. Kneading, just as with dough, is an active process, there is some movement involved. In the second, there's a lake fed from a spring welling up from below. Still some movement, but instead of a man acting on a ball of moist powder, the movement wells up from within the lake itself - to my mind, there's less 'activity' here. In the third, the lotuses, which being plants don't move so much, are permeated by cool waters. So now it's not so much activity, rather it's saturation. And in the fourth, all the water similes are gone, and we have a man again, only this time he is very still, and covered head to foot with a white cloth - clean, pure, and touching the entire body.

Anyway, unfortunately I've only had fleeting brushes with the first, but from what I can surmise thus far, from my humble experience, these similes can be used as a guide for what we ought to be doing and feeling. I find it helpful to compare what we read here with other suttas also, such as the satipatthana sutta and the kayagatasati suttas especially, because by getting a few different similes and points of observation of the practice, we can begin to see how really they all fit together, and are part of one teaching only, and only appear to vary or be different. Can the mind cleansed of the five hindrances encompass this entire body? I believe so. I've found that even the mind with the hindrances only weakened, a mind 'only halfway there' so to speak, is already capable of things that the ordinary, discontented, distracted mind is not. So I extrapolate that when I'm able to one day totally cleanse out those nasty hindrances, the mind will be even more fit, flexible and capable. I believe that with good instructions and guides (something I've been blessed with) and consistent and regular, daily effort (this needs more work in my case) we can all progress through the levels of jhana, and gain the insights and benefits thereof. May it be so.

_/I\_

Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity." (SN 22.97)

Sylvester wrote:The suttas use the term kāya in many fashions, both literal and idiomatic.

What you see in these "body" pericopes would be exemplified for example by "... with the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body." (pītiyā ca virāgā upekkhako ca viharati sato sampajāno, sukhañca kāyena paṭisaṃvedeti).

The standard translations render the kāyena as a regular instrumental (ie "with the" to denote the MEANS by which one experiences). One then needs to ask - which body is intended to be the instrument, the physical body (literal reading) or the mental body (also a literal reading) or perhaps some idiomatic meaning?

Why would the Buddha be so misleading with his fourth jhana simile?

"And furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. He sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. Just as if a man were sitting covered from head to foot with a white cloth so that there would be no part of his body to which the white cloth did not extend; even so, the monk sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness.

Hi pb

I'm not sure I understand your point, and I'm therefore unsure if your mileage lies in the first "body" (permeated with pure, bright awareness) or the second "body" (covered by the white cloth). This is what I think, not only of the 4th Jhana simile, but of the entire series of Jhana similes.

The point to note is the sutta's use of seyyathāpi (just as), the occurence of which in any sutta is to show that what follows is a simile. This seyyathāpi prefaces the following comparisons -

1. Suffusion of the BODY with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion is analogous to the bath soap being suffused with moisture;2. Suffusion of the BODY with rapture and pleasure born of concentration is analogous to the lake with the internal spring;3. Suffusion of the BODY with pleasure divested of pleasure is analogous to lotusses soaking in water;4. Pervasion of the BODY with pure bright mind is analogous to a body covered with a white cloth.

I take each of and every occurence of the "BODY " above to refer to the same phenomenon. I could also take each and every one of the above "BODY" to be the same "body" that experiences (paṭisaṃvedeti) pleasure in 3rd Jhana (assuming I disagree with Warder). I also take it as implied in the similes that the "BODY" is feeling/experiencing those phenomena that are the hallmarks of each jhana. That much is obvious, given that the pericope uses the adjective na apphuṭa (not unpervaded) to indicate that the "BODY" definitely feels these states.

As for the "body" acting as the analogy in the 4th formula, I take it as being simply an analogy and not identical with the "BODY" it is being compared with.

So, what does "BODY" mean? If AN 9.37 and the standard vivicceva kāmehi pericope exclude awareness of the physical body in jhana, why interpret "BODY" to mean the physical body? As given in my earlier post, Pali is replete with other "bodies", both literally and idiomatically. What sort of "body" could possibly be drenched, steeped, filled or pervaded with states that make that "body" feel (paṭisaṃvedeti) those 4 experiences? To me, it's pretty clear that "body" is used to mean the entirety of the Aggregates or the experience in jhana. It's not simply a situation where one interprets the similes as indicating that the "mind is aware of the body". This flies in the face of the fact that the similes are painting a picture of the hedonic and affective tones of the jhanas being experienced by the "body". The 4th jhana "body" simile might seem to break from the series' focus on feelings, but it is just as easy to read the "pure bright mind" (parisuddhena cetasā pariyodātena) as the shortform for what was described in more words earlier, ie "neither-pain-nor-pleasure and purity of mindfulness due to equanimity". This brings the simile back to the focus on feelings, both hedonic and affective.

If you feel that AN 9.37 should perhaps be translated or interpreted to mean that the jhanas come with body awareness, I would be interested to hear your thoughts on the same.

alan... wrote:here and a few other places the buddha talks about the body in reference to jhana, posted below is the one at MN 39. so what do we make of this? are we to keep the entire body in mind throughout meditation or what?

As you suggest, the same passages occur in DN 2. A relevant section:

He drenches, steeps, fills, and permeates this very body with the joy and pleasure born of seclusion so that there is no part of his whole body that is not permeated by joy and pleasure born of seclusion.

The commentary explains these phrases as follows:

“This very body:” this body born of action [i.e. born of kamma]. “He drenches:” he moistens, he extends joy and pleasure everywhere. “Steeps:” to flow all over. “Fills:” like filling a bellows with air. “Permeates:” to touch all over.

“His whole body:” in this monk’s body, with all its parts, in the place where acquired [material] continuity occurs there is not even the smallest part consisting of skin, flesh, and blood that is not permeated with the pleasure of the first jhāna.

This accords well with the Vimuttimagga:

Just as the bath-powder when inside and outside saturated with moisture, adheres and does not scatter, so the body of the meditator in the first jhāna is permeated with joy and pleasure from top to bottom, from the skullcap to the feet and from the feet to the skullcap, skin and hair, inside and outside. And he dwells without falling back. Thus he dwells like a Brahma god.

[Q.] Joy (pīti) and pleasure (sukha) are said to be formless phenomena (arūpa-dhamma). How then can they stay permeating the body?

[A.] Name (nāma) depends on form (rūpa). Form depends on name. Therefore, if name has joy, form also has joy. If name has pleasure, form also has pleasure.

Again, form born from joy causes tranquility of body, and when the entire body is tranquilized there is pleasure due to the tranquility of form. Therefore there is no contradiction.

That sutta (AN 9.37) doesn't even mention jhana, it's talking about the formless attainments (or at least that's how it read for me, if you care to argue otherwise I'd be interested to hear it). Also, what do you make of the kayagatasati sutta which is explicitly about mindfulness of the physical body and talks about the 4 jhanas in connection with that?

"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

I suppose the question is essential what is meant by experiencing the whole body (sabbakāaya patisamvedi) in step 3 of anapanasati.

As polarbuddha mentions above, contemplation on the body (kayanupassana) seems to be predominately physical body. Recognize the 6 contemplations having to do with body as:1) anapanasati, 2) discern postures, 3) discern actions, 4) 32 parts of body, 5) 4elements, 6) impurities/decayIf not physical-body then why talk about all this related physicality?http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

You can find Ajahn Brahm's interpretations of the 4similies in his book The Jhanas, as relating to mental-body. Here is Ajahn Thanissaro:

the similes for the jhanas, which are attained through the sixteen steps, repeatedly mention a full-body awareness. If the mind were forced exclusively into a single point, it wouldn’t be able to spread feelings of rapture or pleasure throughout the entire body in the first three jhanas, or to fill the body with a clear bright awareness in the fourth.

One response to this last argument is that the word “body” in the similes for jhana doesn’t mean the physical body, because a person in jhana has to be oblivious to the physical body. Instead, “body” is meant metaphorically as a term for the “body” of the mind.

Putting aside the question of why someone with the Buddha’s teaching skills would use terms in such a potentially confusing way in his basic meditation instructions, we can simply note that in MN 119 he gives the similes for the jhanas immediately after his discussion of six ways of focusing on the physical body. As in the case of steps 3 and 4 in breath meditation, if he had meant “body” to mean “physical body” in one context, and “mind body” in the discussion immediately following it, he would have signaled that he was redefining his terms. But again he doesn’t.

So unless we want to assume that the Buddha was careless or devious in his meditation instructions, it seems best to interpret “body” as meaning “physical body” in all of these contexts, and to interpret “entire body” in step 3 as referring to the entire physical body as sensed from within. (Right Mindfulness p.90)