"Emptiness is the natural state of mind. It is the non-conceptual refuge, and the absolute bodhicitta. It is the Vajrasattva who absolves evils. It is the mandala of perfecting accumulations. Emptiness is the guru yoga of dharmakāya."- Nyoshul Khenpo Jamyang Dorje

Such terms as 'emptiness' are what Western thinking would call 'metaphysical'. It is true that Buddhism doesn't encourage metaphysical speculation but nevertheless such things are beyond what you might call 'ordinary perception'. That is why they are subjects that require training and guidance by the guru, isn't it? They're not 'theistic' in the sense of presuming a 'creator deity' but they are also not atheist in the Western sense.

Sometimes spirituality is a liberation, and sometimes it's an alibi ~ David Brazier

Vajrasattva does exist, and on many levels. Furthermore there are many Vajrasattvas.

There is Vajrasattva as a commitment being, this is just a visualization that symbolically represents the various qualities you are to generate. Then there is Vajrasattva as wisdom beings, these are the beings that have taken on all Vajrasattvas qualities and attainments. They are enlightened practitioners that have attained the goal and there are many of them.

Then there are different versions of Vajrasattva. In the various HYTs there is usually, if not always, a special version of Vajrasattva. So when someone says Vajrasattva, it can mean a specific one or the general one.

Even though it is not in the purview of the thread, I'd like to say that Vajrasattva is very important and not just a confession practice. I just finished a liter of chocolate milk and lack the energy to put into words just how valuable and precious Vajrasattva is. I wish more people did the Vajrasattva ngondro to develop a strong relationship with Vajrasattva, it seems to me they are missing out by skipping it.

Vajrasattva is the manifestation of the purity of body, speech, and mind of all the Buddhas. As a meditational deity Vajrasattva is visualized as the expression of mind’s pure essence. In this way negativities and obscurations are cleansed allowing Buddha nature to manifest. As a Bodhisattva, Vajrasattva saw that all beings suffer because of their negative karma and made a vow to free all beings of this karma.

... and thanks for the warning about drinking chocolate milk...

"When a Dzogchen Yogi hears Shakyamuni Buddha turning the Wheel of the Dharma of the Four Noble Truths he hears Samathabhadra proclaiming the most profound Dzogpachenpo." - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche

dzogchungpa wrote:Here's a passage from Tsoknyi Rinpoche's discussion of ngondro in his introduction to "Dzogchen Essentials":

Please do not regard Vajrasattva as merely a trick to alleviate psychologi-cal guilt. There is a real Buddha Vajrasattva presiding right now over hisown buddhafield. He is not nonexistent.

When I first read this, it sounded a bit "theistic", as Trungpa might say, so I was wondering if this is the standard Vajrayana POV.

Theism and Buddhism are different. Also, Buddhism and nihilism are different. It is often proposed that Buddhism goes beyond the two extremes of eternalism and nihilism. That said, you'll have to take some time to consider what it is in an eternalist view that Buddhists will not accept, and similarly what it is in a nihilist view that Buddhists will not accept. And from there it may be easier to understand why Mahayana Buddhists in particular can still accept that there are vastly realized Buddhas and Bodhisattvas who exist in the relative sense that we all do, but who are attuned to the truth of Dharma in such a way that they can go beyond the apparent limitations we take for granted, and benefit beings in countless ways and in countless forms.

Contentment is the ultimate wealth;Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

Basically I think of yidams as methods or tools or whatever, but this passage seems to imply that there is an actual Vajrasattva somewhere who is going to do something for us, as the next sentence confirms:

Someone who approaches him through the practice of Vajrasattva's body, speech, and mind does receivethe blessings for removing karmic, emotional, and cognitive obscurations and for realizing the vajra body, the vajra speech, and the vajra mind.

I guess what I'm trying to ask is if that idea is really the Vajrayana POV. I personally don't have any problem with it, although I would want to ask how the existence of such a Vajrasattva was established and so on.

The whole purpose of Buddhism is to have fun, isn't it? - Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche

dzogchungpa wrote:Basically I think of yidams as methods or tools or whatever, but this passage seems to imply that there is an actual Vajrasattva somewhere who is going to do something for us, as the next sentence confirms:

Someone who approaches him through the practice of Vajrasattva's body, speech, and mind does receivethe blessings for removing karmic, emotional, and cognitive obscurations and for realizing the vajra body, the vajra speech, and the vajra mind.

I guess what I'm trying to ask is if that idea is really the Vajrayana POV. I personally don't have any problem with it, although I would want to ask how the existence of such a Vajrasattva was established and so on.

Vajrasattva exist in the same way as the lamas (Guru Rinpoche and Vimalamitra) deities and protectors that many famous tertons interact with. You can read about it in Dudljom Lingpa's Nanjang or Namthar and ChNNR Longsal teachings. Deities and protectors are not only methods, they are actual enlightened Buddhas.

/magnus

We are all here to help each other go through this, whatever it is.~Kurt Vonnegut

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."- Longchenpa

"Even though you have recognized your essence, if you do not get accustomed to it,You will be carried away by the enemy of thoughts, like a small child in a battle field.So long as you are not free from the limitations of accepting and rejecting,That long will you not recognize the view of the innermost secret heart-essence."

dzogchungpa wrote:Basically I think of yidams as methods or tools or whatever, but this passage seems to imply that there is an actual Vajrasattva somewhere who is going to do something for us, as the next sentence confirms:

Someone who approaches him through the practice of Vajrasattva's body, speech, and mind does receivethe blessings for removing karmic, emotional, and cognitive obscurations and for realizing the vajra body, the vajra speech, and the vajra mind.

I guess what I'm trying to ask is if that idea is really the Vajrayana POV. I personally don't have any problem with it, although I would want to ask how the existence of such a Vajrasattva was established and so on.

Many excellent posts.

My 2 cents.

Yes, no, maybe, can't say, it doesn't matter, and a singular truth.

The long and short of it - after two VS nundros (long and short).

Of course VS exists. and if you practice him (single or yab/yum), you will get benefits as described in the quotation, by a living Dzogchen Master, Ven. Tsoknyi Rinpoche.

Of course VS does not exist. Perhaps there is no place in the universe where a physical VS exists, at least we have no proof of his physical existence (though you may be able to go visit him in a non-physical dimension).

So really, you can't say if he exists or does not exist.

Well maybe VS exists as a "reified" creative visualization, perhaps first as a "promise" diety / concept and then as a "wisdom deity" concept / reification, that can have the physical effect of purifying your mind stream (body, speech and mind) as you do the purification practice or become the deity.

So maybe it really doesn't matter if VS exists, or does not exist, if you imagine that he does, and do the practice and get the benefit.

And then, as Heart wisely points out,

"Vajrasattva exist in the same way as the lamas (Guru Rinpoche and Vimalamitra) deities and protectors that many famous tertons interact with. You can read about it in Dudljom Lingpa's Nanjang or Namthar and ChNNR Longsal teachings. Deities and protectors are not only methods, they are actual enlightened Buddhas."

Now you understand the singular truth of it.

ob

Last edited by oldbob on Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:34 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Malcolm wrote:Dzogchen, according to its own texts and traditions is the original Dharma teaching from which all other so called "Buddhist" and "non-Buddhist" Dharma teachings arise.

And the relvance of this statement to the question "Does Vajrasattva exist?" is what exactly?

Greg, Malcolm was replying to the poster who implied that Garab Dorje "developed" Dzogchen due to his practice of Vajrasattva.

Instead, it may be better to say that Garab Dorje, and indeed Vajrasattva, EXIST as the manifestations of the Perfected State, or the Natural State.

Of course, for someone inclined to the Madhyamika view, one would call that "existence" into question...and quite appropriately, I feel.

I will answer the question this way: For some sentient beings, Vajrasattva exists. For some sentient beings, Vajrasattva is a tool, or a symbol. For some sentient beings, Vajrasattva is just a notion....Or a pretty picture on a Thangka. And for Enlightened beings, Buddhas, there is no difference between themselves and Vajrasattva.

"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."

May any merit generated by on-line discussionBe dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.

Malcolm wrote:Dzogchen, according to its own texts and traditions is the original Dharma teaching from which all other so called "Buddhist" and "non-Buddhist" Dharma teachings arise.

And the relvance of this statement to the question "Does Vajrasattva exist?" is what exactly?

Greg, Malcolm was replying to the poster who implied that Garab Dorje "developed" Dzogchen due to his practice of Vajrasattva.

Instead, it may be better to say that Garab Dorje, and indeed Vajrasattva, EXIST as the manifestations of the Perfected State, or the Natural State.

Of course, for someone inclined to the Madhyamika view, one would call that "existence" into question...and quite appropriately, I feel.

I will answer the question this way: For some sentient beings, Vajrasattva exists. For some sentient beings, Vajrasattva is a tool, or a symbol. For some sentient beings, Vajrasattva is just a notion....Or a pretty picture on a Thangka. And for Enlightened beings, Buddhas, there is no difference between themselves and Vajrasattva.

, and [perhaps, since I have no idea of such things,] the question never arises.

but it is very good to ask questions - so practice, and ask, until there are no more questions.

I think that what Dharma means by "to exist" in English gets quite confusing. If the question is rephrased instead as "valid phenomena" or perhaps "uncontrived awareness" the answer is more clearly an unqualified yes, with the caveat that his mode of existence is inconceivable.

I saw a YouTube video (sorry, no link) where Tsogy R. Says he doesn't have direct experience of the deity, but can fell the effects on his mind.

Last edited by smcj on Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

My posts are for entertainment purposes only. Please don't take anything I say seriously unless you verify it with a real teacher first.