I'm don't think you really understand the topic. Your earlier statement that "an engineer is likely to score only 100 points" isn't true, and you seem to be taking the fact that you scored high while unemployed as evidence against it. IQ tests are valid predictors of educational, occupational, and financial success (all things we would intuitively expect). You continue to say that "that's not how IQ works" which doesn't make sense because I haven't tried to explain how it works, I've only cited evidence that it is valid for certain things. They have good statistical reliability. Even physical brain dimensions have shown to be related to IQ. Not what we would expect if the test were "completely flawed at a fundemental level."

IQ as measured by an IQ test is not a measurment of intelligence. One can learn the answers to the three standard IQ tests easily & still not be overly intlligent. Kind of like how a blind person can memorise an eye chart & still be completely blind.

Likewise a high IQ doesn't mean you are skilled, it just means you know a lot of random things & have a good contol of mathematics & visual speace recognition. Which again is not as good as actually having a depth of knowledge in a particular field. Most experts are not geniuses, they are just people who have put in the effort to learn a topic extensively.

IQ is not the same thing as skill.

“Anti-Intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that ‘my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge’.”-Isaac Asimov

Another idea would be the guy with physical intelligence brain... Thats to say, the guy whose brain is constantly working the angles so that things like throwing a pebble with such an arc that it gets logged in the workings of an engine & causes a device to sieze is possible.

Kind of like the kid from No Ordinary Family.

“Anti-Intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that ‘my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge’.”-Isaac Asimov

saint_matthew wrote:No they really aren't. I'm sorry, but its just not so.

Your claim is contradicted by actual evidence on the subject. Kaufman (2009, "IQ Testing 101") found predictable patterns of IQ related to education (doctorates scoring highest, non-high school grads scoring lowest, levels in between pretty much where you'd expect) and occupational status (professional and management highest, service and untrained workers lowest). The APA released a report ("Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns") showing a relationship between IQ and school performance (children with higher IQs learn faster and retain more of what they learn), job performance, social status, and income. And http://www.govrel.vcu.edu//news/Releases/2005/june/McDaniel-Big%20Brain.pdf finds a relationship between brain size and IQ.

IQ as measured by an IQ test is not a measurment of intelligence.

Intelligence, broadly defined, is the ability to 1) learn quickly, 2) retain what you learn, 3) solve problems, 4) reason, 5) understand, and 6) plan. IQ tests directly measure 3 and 4, and are correlated with 1 and 2. If education implies understanding, then it's also correlated with 5. I'm not aware of anything that directly examines 6.

One can learn the answers to the three standard IQ tests easily & still not be overly intlligent. Kind of like how a blind person can memorise an eye chart & still be completely blind.

Rote memorization is an issue with any written test. By this logic, a physics test doesn't actually test your knowledge of physics, since you could simply memorize the answer key. This type of "tricking" the test is possible, but there are multiple IQ test forms that could be used, and who is really going to memorize the answer key? This is not a valid point.

Likewise a high IQ doesn't mean you are skilled, it just means you know a lot of random things & have a good contol of mathematics & visual speace recognition. Which again is not as good as actually having a depth of knowledge in a particular field. Most experts are not geniuses, they are just people who have put in the effort to learn a topic extensively.

As I've referenced, none of this is correct. IQ is related to your ability to acquire and retain skills. Job performance is correlated with IQ - ALL jobs, not just academic ones (though academic ones have a stronger correlation). Most experts have a higher IQ than non-experts (people with doctorates have higher IQ than those with bachelor's degrees, people in skilled occupations have higher IQs than people in unskilled occupations).

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After this terrible thread derail, I feel obligated to contribute to the actual OP!

I like the idea of a villain who learns incredibly fast - and I mean learns everything really fast. He can watch a karate master practice and learn the art in a day (note this doesn't actually make him stronger, he just knows how to move his body). He can blow through a book on animal psychology and learn how to train war beasts. He can pick up a language just by being immersed in it for a little while.

I'd represent this with a borderline abusive Variable effect - but he's a villain, so it's fair game. Say he's a PL 10, he'd have high Intellect and a Variable rank 2 or 4, as a free action or reaction, applying to Enhanced skills and Advantages only. This would basically give him a free +10 to +20 to ALL his skills, but give him the limitation that he must spend an appropriate amount of time learning it. Give him mental quickness so that this time is lessened however much you feel like, for example 1 year to 1 day. All of this gives him a lot of flexibility both in and out of combat for cheap. Sort of the same effect as giving him ranks in ALL the skills and advantages (since it's an NPC you aren't point-limited anyway), but I feel is a bit more elegant and thematic (and less to write on a character sheet!).

I like the idea of this guy not having any other powers, at least nothing particularly superhuman. He's just a really really fast learner.

prufock wrote:Your claim is contradicted by actual evidence on the subject. Kaufman (2009, "IQ Testing 101") found predictable patterns of IQ related to education (doctorates scoring highest, non-high school grads scoring lowest, levels in between pretty much where you'd expect) and occupational status (professional and management highest, service and untrained workers lowest).

/facepalm. no it doesn't. For starters, i doubt you've actually read the book at all. Had you read it, you would have got to page three before Kaufman reiterated almost everything i've already told you.

However Kaufmans work in general is available on the DialogueWeb & to a lesser degree on the Proquest database servers. At no point does he make either a correlative or causative connection between IQ and occupational status. He does make a correlative link between occupational status and IQ, but thats by no means the same statment.

As for the rest, you are again missing the main point. Intelligence & knowledge are not the same thing. Like i already said, having an IQ of 120 is not the same as knowing something. Sure its easier to pick up knowledge, but if you have an IQ of 130 & you feed your brain a steady diet of crap & day time tv, you are still less employable then someone with an average IQ, who applied themselves & actually sought out instruction in a field.

IQ =/= Knowledge

Like i've already said, intelligence is kind of like potential: Its completely useless if you don't do anything with it.

This exactly choes the way MnM works... you can have an intellect score of 10 & still know nothing, if you haven't bothered to take any ranks in any intellect based skills.

“Anti-Intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that ‘my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge’.”-Isaac Asimov

Like i've already said, intelligence is kind of like potential: Its completely useless if you don't do anything with it.

But you didn't actually say that. You said that IQ didn't represent intelligence. Not knowledge.

Someone with a high IQ is probably going to be more intelligent than someone with a lower. Whether or not they have the knowledge base to do something with that high intelligence is another issue. However, statistically speaking, those with a high IQ find it easier to gain that knowledge base, and do so, to learn the most and gain the most out of it.

peregrine wrote:But you didn't actually say that. You said that IQ didn't represent intelligence. Not knowledge.

Actually what i said was & i'll quote it here

I had an IQ test a few years back & scored 125. 125 is low end "gifted"... An yet, at the time I was still completely unemployable, as i had no practical skills. An yet an engineer is likely to score only 100 points on the same test... An yet i know nothing about engineering. Because IQ is essentially useless without some sort of framework to apply it to.

You probably missed it, since it was a throw away statement on page 1 & this is actually prufocks second attempt at this. His first attempt was over a month ago, so its understandable that you missed it... Heck, even i had to go back and reread it.

As for IQ not accurately measuring intelligence, thats not news. Even people who administer IQ tests are aware that the results can easily be altered by something as simple as who is adminsitering it, or tempeture of the room, or even how comfortable the chair is. Even when it all works perfectly, its still not a magical number expressing your true potential.

“Anti-Intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that ‘my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge’.”-Isaac Asimov

You also said, and I would quote but for some reason that post has dissappeared "IQ =/= Intelligence."

An IQ score assigned does not necessarily mean you have a high IQ, sure. If you cheat, but then that's not actually your true IQ. And yeah, there's variables. But, when you look at the population of everyone involved, people with higher IQ scores tend to be more intelligent.

In game terms, things tend to fall apart, someone with a simple 14 Int, reasonably smart in game terms, but not outrageously so would be classified as a genius. Someone who's just very normal human smart with an 18 would be a super genius if you use the IQ=Int*10 rule of thumb.

peregrine wrote:You also said, and I would quote but for some reason that post has dissappeared "IQ =/= Intelligence."

Thats because it doesn't: IQ is a measurement system. Likewise i could say Size 12 shoe =/= size 12 feet.

“Anti-Intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that ‘my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge’.”-Isaac Asimov

Had another thought on this: Have you ever checked out Matt Wagner's Grendel? He was essentially a super smart, no powers, crime lord with a few interesting gimmicks. He could fight & used a signature weapon, but most of his ability was in the politics, intrigues and fear he created via the masked identity.

I'm not saying all of it would be useful, but there might be some interesting elements that might translate to what you're doing.

Damren wrote:Had another thought on this: Have you ever checked out Matt Wagner's Grendel? He was essentially a super smart, no powers, crime lord with a few interesting gimmicks. He could fight & used a signature weapon, but most of his ability was in the politics, intrigues and fear he created via the masked identity.

I'm not saying all of it would be useful, but there might be some interesting elements that might translate to what you're doing.

Good Luck.

Tell me more about this Grendel character

“Anti-Intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that ‘my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge’.”-Isaac Asimov

We had a super-smart villian in a game that wasn't a super-scientist. namely because they were too lazy. They saw their intelligence as a way to lay out massive plans for others to do... as a kid he took payment in comics, toys and junkfood. now that he's an adult, he takes it in money, hookers, food and other 'toys'.

American Patriot (MSG Nathaniel Hale Spaight, US Army - Ret.), American Meta-Human Super-Soldier (PL10/150pp.)"Sometimes... success is measured just one little victory at a time."