Rob Pincus and James Yeager on Open Carry

This is a discussion on Rob Pincus and James Yeager on Open Carry within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; They are in some very powerful company: Brown bans open carrying of handguns - Los Angeles Times...

They run training schools and make you tube video, so anything they say has to be fact.

I am surprised by this statement since youtube videos are so highly regarded as gospel sometimes, "like never talk to a police officer" or so and so's right violated when all the video showed was an officer asking the guy for his name. Those videos are taken as statement of fact when in truth all they are is an opinion by someone on some topic.

The reason I posted this was not to start an OC war, it was simply the first time I have seen someone in the firearms training field voice such a firm opinion on the matter. Whatever your feelings toward Yeager the fact the Rob Pincus is stating the same thing, to me anyway gives it some weight. Again I support any form of carry as long as it is for the right reason and done with responsibility and common sense.

"A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

They run training schools and make you tube video, so anything they say has to be fact.

I am surprised by this statement since youtube videos are so highly regarded as gospel sometimes, "like never talk to a police officer" or so and so's right violated when all the video showed was an officer asking the guy for his name. Those videos are taken as statement of fact when in truth all they are is an opinion by someone on some topic.

The reason I posted this was not to start an OC war, it was simply the first time I have seen someone in the firearms training field voice such a firm opinion on the matter. Whatever your feelings toward Yeager the fact the Rob Pincus is stating the same thing, to me anyway gives it some weight. Again I support any form of carry as long as it is for the right reason and done with responsibility and common sense.

When talking about a controversial topic such as this, even reasonable conversation always seems to bruise some egos.

If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

I guess it's that old expression if you do not use it you will lose it .((I do not like O C ))I like the element of surprise and not to be a target of interest)). people who do not have firearms do not think about them and because there are so few people that open carry when they see somebody open carrying it gets everybody's attention. It was like when cell phones first came out and people just started using them everybody would take notice when they notice somebody using one and now it is a common sight so nobody pays any attention to it. The average person does not have any idea how many people they might be standing next to with a concealed weapon if they did thay would probably leave or move away from you, they are probably under the impression you are not allowed to have one in public . I guess what I'm trying to say is that if the public is under the impression that there are no people carrying weapons around then how can we have there support if they are already under the impression that people do not have these GUNS because they do not see them out .So if politicians try to take your guns rights you would not get support from the public. I do not like open Carrying but I have mixed feelings about it if we do not sometimes we will probably lose O C and then what would be next

I'm so sick and tired of people acting as though open carriers are doing something wrong all the time. We have enough anti-gunners doing what they can to shut us down, this kind of crap doesn't help.

There was a study done and most inmates prefer targets without guns - someone with a gun is not identified as an easy target, they typically move on because it's not worth the risk of getting shot.

I don't make this stuff up, there's documentation to back it up, vs this is what I think. I lean toward favoring the odds... the chances of me needing my firearm in defense is pretty slim, if I can knock off another 60% chance on top of that, why not? Because some pro gun and anti gun people don't like it?

Too bad.

60% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they knew the victim was armed. 40% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they thought the victim might be armed.
James Wright and Peter Rossi, Armed and Considered Dangerous: A Survey of Felons and Their Firearmsâ€ť, New York: Aldine, 1986

74% of felons agreed that "one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at home is that they fear being shot during the crime." 57% of felons polled agreed, "criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police."
U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics Federal Firearms Offenders study, 1997. Department of Justice, National Institute of Justice, "The Armed Criminal in America: A Survey of Incarcerated Felons," Research Report, July 1985

If there was no disadvantage to carrying concealed, why wouldn't cops carry that way? Oh yeah, because they need fast access to their handgun just in case they need it.

There is no proven disadvantage to open carry any more than there is proven advantage to concealed carry. Both have their upside and downside, I won't argue that - but to be against open carry is just ridiculous to me. Advantage or disadvantage doesn't matter, sometimes I just do not like to carry concealed. Be it when I'm coming home from the range or what have you, I don't need a reason to be honest... it's my choice when I do it or not.

Sadly, the main disadvantage to open carry is that some people (pro gun and anti gun) don't like it, period. That causes more problems than anything else mentioned. It's not illegal in many states, yet people call the cops because they see a guy carrying a gun on his hip - he's not doing anything wrong and maybe doing something as simple as having a picnic with his family, yet the cops are required to check it out. So here a family enjoying time together has to sit and go through being questioned just because someone doesn't understand that he's completely within his legal means of carrying, or doesn't like it. I think we need more public education to be honest, let people know it's OK and legal for those who haven't ruined it for themselves. And well, many of those who have ruined it for themselves are carrying anyway...

Open and concealed carry both have their place, I prefer not to open carry at birthday parties, church (when I have to go), etc, etc, etc... If I'm just out running errands or on a long trip, I may choose to open carry.

Key word there is 'choose', love the option - quit your whining and don't screw it up for me!

The only thing damaging the carry community is people trying to stop open carry, this includes pro and anti gun people. There are people ON THIS FORUM who would support a law that makes open carry illegal, makes me sick.

If you don't like it, fine - don't do it - but I'll be darned if I'm going to sit around and watch my option to open carry get sucked down the tubes just because you don't like to open carry.

I don't care about the 'tactics' and advantages or disadvantages of either way of carrying. It is in our Constitution and if permitted by the state it is up to the individual to decide what they want to do. Same as caliber. It is a personal choice on how they want to protect themselves. If they have all the information available then who am I to say they are right or wrong. It is their life, not mine. And to be quite honest, most folks that disparage OC really don't give a hoot about tactics. They really care that it makes a bad impression on folks afraid of guns and they feel that it will possibly curtail their rights to CC with stricter laws.

I've carried a weapon,in some fashion for 20 years,pro and personally,O.C.,and C.C.,never stopped anybody from shooting at me either way.The majority of people carrying are law abiding citizens,and because you C.C.does'nt mean you anti 2nd,lets admit some people don't need to carry period,some do it just to make a statement,could care less about their own safety,most of the time they can be pointed out by their 5.00 holsters drooping off their side.They've had absolutely NO training,could'nt retain their firearm if it was super glued to their hand,to me this is as much a danger as a threat,If O.C is your thing Bravo,I am attached to the U.S Marshal Service GCRTF thru my employer and C.C. everyday,don't feel the need to show everybody my Glock.JMTCW.

Originally Posted by Thunder71

Those guys need to shut up.

I'm so sick and tired of people acting as though open carriers are doing something wrong all the time. We have enough anti-gunners doing what they can to shut us down, this kind of crap doesn't help.

There was a study done and most inmates prefer targets without guns - someone with a gun is not identified as an easy target, they typically move on because it's not worth the risk of getting shot.

I don't make this stuff up, there's documentation to back it up, vs this is what I think. I lean toward favoring the odds... the chances of me needing my firearm in defense is pretty slim, if I can knock off another 60% chance on top of that, why not? Because some pro gun and anti gun people don't like it?

Too bad.

If there was no disadvantage to carrying concealed, why wouldn't cops carry that way? Oh yeah, because they need fast access to their handgun just in case they need it.

There is no proven disadvantage to open carry any more than there is proven advantage to concealed carry. Both have their upside and downside, I won't argue that - but to be against open carry is just ridiculous to me. Advantage or disadvantage doesn't matter, sometimes I just do not like to carry concealed. Be it when I'm coming home from the range or what have you, I don't need a reason to be honest... it's my choice when I do it or not.

Sadly, the main disadvantage to open carry is that some people (pro gun and anti gun) don't like it, period. That causes more problems than anything else mentioned. It's not illegal in many states, yet people call the cops because they see a guy carrying a gun on his hip - he's not doing anything wrong and maybe doing something as simple as having a picnic with his family, yet the cops are required to check it out. So here a family enjoying time together has to sit and go through being questioned just because someone doesn't understand that he's completely within his legal means of carrying, or doesn't like it. I think we need more public education to be honest, let people know it's OK and legal for those who haven't ruined it for themselves. And well, many of those who have ruined it for themselves are carrying anyway...

Open and concealed carry both have their place, I prefer not to open carry at birthday parties, church (when I have to go), etc, etc, etc... If I'm just out running errands or on a long trip, I may choose to open carry.

Key word there is 'choose', love the option - quit your whining and don't screw it up for me!

The only thing damaging the carry community is people trying to stop open carry, this includes pro and anti gun people. There are people ON THIS FORUM who would support a law that makes open carry illegal, makes me sick.

If you don't like it, fine - don't do it - but I'll be darned if I'm going to sit around and watch my option to open carry get sucked down the tubes just because you don't like to open carry.

Just for the record, I don't see a lot of people that open carry in my area, but when I do, it's usually somebody carrying a black Glock in a black holster on a black belt with a pair of blue jeans. It's hard to even see the gun without looking really close. They walk through Walmart or wherever, going about their business. I don't see a lot of drama, man with a gun calls, panicked citizens, or anything else. As far as I'm concerned, it's not the act of open carrying that is the problem, it's what you are doing while open carrying that creates the problems and that could be said regardless of the method of carry that you choose.

...Sadly, the main disadvantage to open carry is that some people (pro gun and anti gun) don't like it, period. That causes more problems than anything else mentioned.

I would say that pretty much all anti-gun people don't like open carry. But that's neither here nor there. The fact is that open carry scares a lot of people. Now, personally, I don't give a crap who is scared by it. I support open carry. I choose not to open carry because of my perceived sense of losing an element of tactical surprise during an encounter. But again, that's my choice, and certainly not based on being anti-open carry.

Now, how do all the scared sheep and anti-gunners effect public policy and legislation? I have no idea, but I suspect in some communities and states, large anti-gun lobbying can have an effect on legislation. But to what extent? I don't know. They have their lobbyists and the gun community has their lobbyists.

I do know, I don't want any more gun restrictions on anyone. But I can't say that open carriers play any role in that one way or another.

We all know the anti-gunners are for the most part, completely irrational in their fears and bias against guns and gun owners. And that's a problem.

How do you solve that problem? Well, open carriers feel that the more people see guns in the general public, the more people become used to it and less fearful. I can't say I disagree with that. And part of the reason why I support open carry.

I am pro-OC, on a purely Constitutional basis, and completely support the right of folks to do so. I completely get the use-it-or-lose-it argument, and as long as people are doing that for that reason, with good preparation and execution instead of purposely provoking LEOs so they can be Youtube heroes, I'm onboard.

Personally I CC most of the time, though I live in what is a somewhat OC-friendly state, as long as you don't venture too far South. It's a practical thing, and I think this is mostly where Pincus and Yeager are coming from, though I disagree with a few things they say. The big issue I have with them is the idea that we should modify the way we express and practice our Constitutional rights so that they don't get restricted further.

Most of the practical reasons I don't OC often have been expressed, but a few others:
- In civvies, I don't have the force of presence that most uniformed officers do - I don't represent authority, don't carry the presumption of training, and in the absence of such factors, I also don't have arms the size of legs.
- I don't normally have easy access to an armed teammate. It certainly would be much more practical for me to OC if I always traveled as the 5-man, but that "might" cause even more disruption to the populace!

I do OC in certain circumstances - mostly on my property, hiking/fishing/hunting, and walking the local (rural) area - where I live that doesn't normally raise an eyebrow, and that is as it should be. That's one of the reasons I live here. I never OC downtown.

But then again, as a kid we used to OC BB guns, rifles, and shotguns through some small-town/suburb-ish areas on our way to the woods. Of course, I didn't call it OC-ing, just going shooting, and that never raised an eyebrow either. These days, if I were to let a kid do that, I'd probably end up facing charges. That's sad.

Always remember that others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them. And then you destroy yourself.
Richard M Nixon
Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.”
Jeff Cooper

.............. the gun was at slide lock and in a holster when it was taken and was tossed 90 degrees offline from the actual direction of fire ....... Some people think it's okay to have students stand next to targets while they're being shot at, I think it is okay to toss a students gun in the dirt to create a impression about how bad it is to not react to slide lock with something other than "giving up". I can be pretty sure that it made an impression and that the student learned something from it........

Most of you know my feelings about one of the two instructors, so I won't go into it here, but it is hard for me to see that name without wondering what someone like that has to offer after what he did when it was show time.

Anyway, I support anything positive in the firearms community, whether it's something I'd do or not. For me, I prefer to keep it concealed. I don't care what kind of attention it draws or what others think of it, I just don't want it hanging out there like that. There is that one instance though where some old timer was carrying a single action 44 in a large belt/holster that the bad guy completely overlooked and robbed the store. They ended up in a running gunfight through the store with either the hammer or trigger breaking off of the single action, yet he still was able to use it. So, apparently it's possible that it's not noticed by someone focused on what they're about to do.

I would be glad to see others open carrying. Though it's not something I do, if I was in a state that allowed open carry but didn't recognize my Texas CHL, I'd make an exception.

If someone through my handgun downrange, someone may end up flying downrange behind it.

Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe