I would like to get a dialog going here on the subject of squirt, which has already been addressed at some length by Dr. Dave and others. Here's my scene: a fairly difficult cut shot, with the cue ball traveling 5-7 feet before contact. The object ball is near either rail and about a diamond and a half from the pocket. The player is a top shooter, who figures to make this shot over and over with only an occasional miss. Now, he wants to hit it with english, and will still be successful most of the time.

My question is this: does he make an automatic adjustment in his aim, considering speed, stroke and the amount of english, or is there some other explanation for his success? Squirt figures to be present, yet he is able to deal with it and make the shot.

In my own game I don't see much squirt - maybe because I try not to stray too far from the center line of the cue ball. Even if I try to measure it by shooting a shot straight down the center of the table, using english, I don't see that it deviates from the line very much. At the same time, I am not nearly as good a shotmaker as I would like, so I need to know about squirt. Maybe this would help me.

Can the answer be anything about back-hand english? Thanks for any replies here - especially from people who really know.

Artemus

01-26-2008, 06:39 PM

On a shot of 5-7', why would he need to use english to begin with? You haven't set up the ball spread and the next shot in a diagram, but what's wrong with force follow or draw back to the center of the table? You can make almost anything from that posiion unless it's back on the opposite end rail. How much more position is a ton of english going to get him with a huge chance of missing the original shot because of squirt?

This should be a GREAT thread though for all the squirt freaks with formulas and pivot point tests. I can't wait.

Cornerman

01-26-2008, 07:08 PM

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Vapros:</font><hr> I would like to get a dialog going here on the subject of squirt, which has already been addressed at some length by Dr. Dave and others. Here's my scene: a fairly difficult cut shot, with the cue ball traveling 5-7 feet before contact. The object ball is near either rail and about a diamond and a half from the pocket. The player is a top shooter, who figures to make this shot over and over with only an occasional miss. Now, he wants to hit it with english, and will still be successful most of the time.

My question is this: does he make an automatic adjustment in his aim, considering speed, stroke and the amount of english, or is there some other explanation for his success? <hr /></blockquote>Considering that in my case, it was the Professor Grady Matthews who showed me the ins and outs about squirt (he called it 'deflection'), and that I assume that every pro player knows about squirt (and that's been proven to me that most if not all definitely do), then yes they consciously have made adjustments at some point in their lives, but it could be automatic at this point.

And yes, we were laying down standard 9-ball english patterns that are the bread and butter of 9-ball, all of the firm heavy english shots longer than 5'. If people can't shoot these shots, or don't consider them as absolute standard fare in 9-ball, then they don't know 9-ball plain and simple.

All the top instructors teach squirt/deflection. I took a clinic with Nick Varner, and even though he never talked about it in specific terms, he waggled the back of his stick in a backhand english manner and said that he was "locking in the english."

Buddy Hall talks abou "tuck and roll," which is a swiping/dynamic backhand english. I've watched Buddy for many years however, and it never struck me that he did this.

But for the second part of your question... the secret of their success is talent and hard work.

Fred

wolfdancer

01-26-2008, 07:18 PM

I don't profess to really know, but do use English for 5 to 7 ft shots....for position...I adjust by feel, and my formula is 1+1= 2 (rails).
I hope that you do get some replies from the members that are more technically orientated...and I do think back hand English
could help minimize the adjustment.

Vapros

01-26-2008, 07:37 PM

Cornerman, I should have been a little more specific. I was asking about his success in successfully executing the shot I described. I know that talent and hard work are necessary.

Thanks for responding.

Artemus

01-27-2008, 08:01 AM

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr>

Buddy Hall talks abou "tuck and roll," which is a swiping/dynamic backhand english. I've watched Buddy for many years however, and it never struck me that he did this.
Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Fred, are you absolutely certain that "tuck and roll" is a dynamic swiping move? That isn't the way I was taught by one of the security guards for Ulysses S. Grant. It's actually fairly imperceptible to most watching and almost all of them do it. The one that took me completely by surprise and caught me off guard was Allison. She with her picture perfect straight robotic stroke does it. I've never seen her roll, but I've seen her tuck a high number of times.

It does swipe the CB some and the alignment of the cue shaft is altered from the original position at setup, but maybe your use of the word "dynamic" is throwing me off. It isn't a move from side to side like you're steering a rowboat with a small motor on the back.

Bambu

01-27-2008, 11:01 PM

When it comes to squirt, it shouldnt matter whether its a cut shot or not. In addition to the other adjustments you mentioned, all shots with english will require at least some compensation for squirt. I dont think its consciously factored in though, at least not for me. The squirt is always there, so it just becomes part of the shot.
On a full length table shot it is difficult to see the squirt itself. Depending on how much spin you got on the ball, swerve will cancel out the squirt to a large degree. The shot with english looks almost straight from end to end, but the ball actually went out first(squirt), then came back in, towards the direction of the english(swerve). As always,(IMHO).

Alfie

01-27-2008, 11:55 PM

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> It's actually fairly imperceptible to most watching and almost all of them do it. The one that took me completely by surprise and caught me off guard was Allison. She with her picture perfect straight robotic stroke does it. I've never seen her roll, but I've seen her tuck a high number of times. <hr /></blockquote>What is a roll? What is a tuck? In your opinion why do people do this? Do you do it?

av84fun

01-28-2008, 12:23 AM

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bambu:</font><hr> When it comes to squirt, it shouldnt matter whether its a cut shot or not. In addition to the other adjustments you mentioned, all shots with english will require at least some compensation for squirt. I dont think its consciously factored in though, at least not for me. The squirt is always there, so it just becomes part of the shot.
On a full length table shot it is difficult to see the squirt itself. Depending on how much spin you got on the ball, swerve will cancel out the squirt to a large degree. The shot with english looks almost straight from end to end, but the ball actually went out first(squirt), then came back in, towards the direction of the english(swerve). As always,(IMHO). <hr /></blockquote>

Swerve is only present (to a meaningful degree) when A)the cue is jacked up...the more jacked up the more swerve and B) the shot is long enough and/or slow enough that the swerve-producing CB rotation has a chance to "bite"

There is no swerve imparted by a level or nearly level cue regardless of how much side is used.

Squirt, on the other hand is RELATIVELY independent of the speed of the shot. So, unless that shot is long enough and slow enough..."not VERY fast" is a better concept than "slow" then there would be no cancelling of squirty with swerve and possibly no swerve at all.

But allowing for squirt...and collision induced throw...are IMHO two of the MAJOR factors that separate the champions from the also rans.

There is no "forumla" of interst to pool players...as opposed to those writing engineering studies...that can tell you how much to adjust for squirt and/or CIT.

Those adjustments are learned...literally...over hundreds of thousands of shots and become part of what is called "feel."

Buddy Hall talks abou "tuck and roll," which is a swiping/dynamic backhand english. I've watched Buddy for many years however, and it never struck me that he did this.
Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Fred, are you absolutely certain that "tuck and roll" is a dynamic swiping move? That isn't the way I was taught by one of the security guards for Ulysses S. Grant. It's actually fairly imperceptible to most watching and almost all of them do it. The one that took me completely by surprise and caught me off guard was Allison. She with her picture perfect straight robotic stroke does it. I've never seen her roll, but I've seen her tuck a high number of times.

It does swipe the CB some and the alignment of the cue shaft is altered from the original position at setup, but maybe your use of the word "dynamic" is throwing me off. It isn't a move from side to side like you're steering a rowboat with a small motor on the back. <hr /></blockquote>

I'm going to chime in with yet another version of what "tuck and roll" is...and I SEEM to remember getting from a Buddy Hall instructional tape...or possibly just a commentary of his on a tournament match.

I seem to recall him stating that tuck and roll is a FLAW in the stroke where the back hand wrist is allowed to bow inward during the stroke and at the same time, the wrist tucks in toward the body for cing the elbow to move away from the body.

That whole process forces the cue off line (to the left for a right handed shooter)and is, of course, a major flaw.

Regards,
Jim

Bob_Jewett

01-28-2008, 01:07 AM

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Vapros:</font><hr> ... My question is this: does he make an automatic adjustment in his aim, considering speed, stroke and the amount of english, or is there some other explanation for his success? Squirt figures to be present, yet he is able to deal with it and make the shot. ... <hr /></blockquote>
In my experience, the vast majority of top players compensate for squirt, swerve and throw (you left out those other two) subconsciously and automatically. Many good players -- top pro level -- have no idea how much squirt their cues have. It is not useful information to them. See the ball, see the pocket, see the shape, make the shot. If you are playing well, it is as simple as that. I think it is a mistake to fill your thought process with all those little details unless you want to miss most of your shots.

However, I think that when practicing some shots, it is helpful to understand what is going on to try to figure out why you are missing certain shots. It's not necessary, though. If you miss a shot to the left, aim more to the right next time -- that will nearly always fix the problem, eventually.

Artemus

01-28-2008, 06:25 AM

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr>
I'm going to chime in with yet another version of what "tuck and roll" is...and I SEEM to remember getting from a Buddy Hall instructional tape...or possibly just a commentary of his on a tournament match.

I seem to recall him stating that tuck and roll is a FLAW in the stroke where the back hand wrist is allowed to bow inward during the stroke and at the same time, the wrist tucks in toward the body for cing the elbow to move away from the body.

That whole process forces the cue off line (to the left for a right handed shooter)and is, of course, a major flaw.

Regards,
Jim <hr /></blockquote>

It wasn't on his instructional tape as a flaw. On his tape he was ADVOCATING the use of tuck and roll and showing how to perform it.

A lot of players set up with their hand and wrists in a straight alignment with all intentions of coming back into the shot that way. But either from a bad habit they ingrained or nerves getting the best of them, they will either tuck or roll their wrist and hand during the stroke back to the CB and alter the cue shaft alignment and miss the shot every time. In THAT case it IS a FLAW in the stroke. Many of them know they're doing it but can't stop.

Otoh, when you do it on purpose with a slight adjustment on the aim point at set up and then tuck or roll ON PURPOSE, the flaw now becomes your friend and is a great tool in your arsenal. Most purist teachers DO NOT teach or want to teach this. They prefer having everything always coming into impact at straight lines with normal tip offsets.

Artemus

01-28-2008, 06:31 AM

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Alfie:</font><hr> What is a roll? What is a tuck? In your opinion why do people do this? Do you do it? <hr /></blockquote>

Hey man, like, "What's it all about"?

Roll is when you twist or screw your hand up so that the wrist ends in a cupped or concave position at impact.

Tuck is when you twist or screw your hand under so that the wrist ends up bowed or in a convex position.

Both will alter the alignment of the shaft coming into the CB differently, one to the right and one to the left. It's another way of applying english with minimal squirt and can also give you a little more to work with on cut shots either way if you know what you're doing.

Hell yes I use it.

Bambu

01-28-2008, 07:45 AM

Sure the cue needs to be elevated, but isnt that a given? That is to say, even what seems level, usually is not. Good point about the distance. I should have included something similar to what you said: "B) the shot is long enough and/or slow enough that the swerve-producing CB rotation has a chance to "bite."

dr_dave

01-28-2008, 04:35 PM

As Bob points out, when using English, one must adjust for squirt, swerve, AND throw (not just squirt). Most top players do this intuitively or instinctively based on years and years of intelligent practice and successful play. I believe it can help players of all levels to have a basic understanding of the fundamental effects of squirt, swerve, and throw. I think understanding helps build and strengthen intuition. My June '07 article (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2007/june07.pdf) has a useful bulleted summary of all throw effects. All of the claims are backed up by details and examples in the previous articles. My March '08 article (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/index.html) will have a similar summary of all of the squirt and swerve effects. The experimental data in my February '08 article (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2008/feb08.pdf) also help dispel some of the myths surrounding squirt.

Regards,
Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Vapros:</font><hr> I would like to get a dialog going here on the subject of squirt, which has already been addressed at some length by Dr. Dave and others. Here's my scene: a fairly difficult cut shot, with the cue ball traveling 5-7 feet before contact. The object ball is near either rail and about a diamond and a half from the pocket. The player is a top shooter, who figures to make this shot over and over with only an occasional miss. Now, he wants to hit it with english, and will still be successful most of the time.

My question is this: does he make an automatic adjustment in his aim, considering speed, stroke and the amount of english, or is there some other explanation for his success? Squirt figures to be present, yet he is able to deal with it and make the shot.

In my own game I don't see much squirt - maybe because I try not to stray too far from the center line of the cue ball. Even if I try to measure it by shooting a shot straight down the center of the table, using english, I don't see that it deviates from the line very much. At the same time, I am not nearly as good a shotmaker as I would like, so I need to know about squirt. Maybe this would help me.

Can the answer be anything about back-hand english? Thanks for any replies here - especially from people who really know. <hr /></blockquote>

Vapros

01-28-2008, 06:07 PM

Thanks for responding, and I read the February article you cited. I went to the pool room today, and did a few more experiments with squirt, and verified the observation I made initially - that I'm not getting much squirt. Using an old Mali cue, I repeated my shots down the center of a 9' table, using english. Starting with the cue ball about 6" off the end rail, I was able to hit it with a nearly level cue, and I don't think it swerved at all. The squirt resulted in less than an inch departure (over 8 1/2')from the aiming line at any speed, but the english was sufficient to send the return to the area of the side pocket. I would call this very nearly negligible squirt, especially for shorter shots, and not in line with what I expected to see. This much squirt, along with the throw when using inside english, might cancel each other out. Of course this would not be true when using outside english. Everybody's comments are welcome.

For what it's worth, Dr. Dave, I get a lot more from your table diagrams than from the graphs. I'm a pool player (sort of), and not an engineer. I suspect this might be true for a lot of readers. Keep up the good work.

Thanks.

dr_dave

01-28-2008, 06:21 PM

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Vapros:</font><hr> Thanks for responding, and I read the February article you cited. I went to the pool room today, and did a few more experiments with squirt, and verified the observation I made initially - that I'm not getting much squirt. Using an old Mali cue, I repeated my shots down the center of a 9' table, using english. Starting with the cue ball about 6" off the end rail, I was able to hit it with a nearly level cue, and I don't think it swerved at all. The squirt resulted in less than an inch departure (over 8 1/2')from the aiming line at any speed, but the english was sufficient to send the return to the area of the side pocket. I would call this very nearly negligible squirt, especially for shorter shots, and not in line with what I expected to see. This much squirt, along with the throw when using inside english, might cancel each other out. Of course this would not be true when using outside english. Everybody's comments are welcome.<hr /></blockquote>With shots at a pool table, where the cue is usually elevated at least a little (to clear the rails), English will result in both squirt and swerve, and the relative amounts of each depend on shot distance and speed and ball/cloth conditions. This is the topic of my March '08 article (which does have lots of table diagram illustrations). Sorry, but I can't link to the article until it comes out in print. What you are measuring is the net result of squirt and swerve (AKA "squerve").

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Vapros:</font><hr>For what it's worth, Dr. Dave, I get a lot more from your table diagrams than from the graphs. I'm a pool player (sort of), and not an engineer. I suspect this might be true for a lot of readers.<hr /></blockquote>Thanks for the feedback. I usually try to include more explanation and table diagram examples when I show graphs, but I didn't have room in this article. I'll try to be sensitive to this in the future.

Regards,
Dave

PS: BTW, missing the CB target by an inch (or even 1/16") can be a disaster in pool.

Bob_Jewett

01-28-2008, 06:42 PM

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Vapros:</font><hr> ... Starting with the cue ball about 6" off the end rail, I was able to hit it with a nearly level cue, ... <hr /></blockquote>
When you shot like this, how much higher was the center of the butt of the cue than the center of the tip? That is, how many inches of slope did you have in the length of the stick?

Vapros

01-28-2008, 07:19 PM

All I can do is estimate. The center of the tip is at the horizontal center line of the cue ball, which would put it what - maybe 3/8" below the rail? And resting on the rail. The butt then, might be up 2 to 3 inches. There is a definite slope, but I don't know how much. I hear you saying that there has to be some swerve, but if so, shouldn't the squirt be apparent immediately, if I don't shoot too hard to see it, before the swerve appears? Squirt happens only once. The answer must be that there are things happening on the table that I can't see. That's pretty mysterious.

Squirt and swerve - are they like love and marriage, in that you can't have one (according to an old song) without the other? That brings up another question. Who can tell at what point the swerve cancels out the squirt and restores the center-ball aiming line? And does swerve go on forever? I have seen diagrams online that indicate it might, and can even cross the original line at some point.

Maybe I shouldn't have asked in the first place . . .

Bob_Jewett

01-28-2008, 07:59 PM

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Vapros:</font><hr> All I can do is estimate. The center of the tip is at the horizontal center line of the cue ball, which would put it what - maybe 3/8" below the rail? And resting on the rail. The butt then, might be up 2 to 3 inches. There is a definite slope, but I don't know how much. I hear you saying that there has to be some swerve, but if so, shouldn't the squirt be apparent immediately, if I don't shoot too hard to see it, before the swerve appears? Squirt happens only once. The answer must be that there are things happening on the table that I can't see. That's pretty mysterious.

Squirt and swerve - are they like love and marriage, in that you can't have one (according to an old song) without the other? That brings up another question. Who can tell at what point the swerve cancels out the squirt and restores the center-ball aiming line? And does swerve go on forever? I have seen diagrams online that indicate it might, and can even cross the original line at some point. ... <hr /></blockquote>
If the center of the tip is 3/8-inch below the rail, the center of the shaft is 1/4-inch above the rail. That gives 5/8-inch slope in 6 inches, or close to 6 inches in the length of the stick. Figure very close to one degree of elevation per inch, so you are elevated by six degrees.

Yes, squirt happens at the instant of tip-ball contact while swerve takes some time to develop. For some shots with side spin and follow, even played fairly hard, the swerve can take place in the first few inches of travel. The swerve continues until the cue ball is rolling smoothly on the cloth.

In fact, if you could shoot with a level stick, there would be no swerve. The rails and your knuckles do not permit you to shoot with exactly zero elevation. If you managed to shoot with negative elevation, the cue ball would curve the other way.

Suppose you have some elevation and side spin. The stick points to a spot on the cloth because it is elevated. If you join the point at the bottom of the cue ball to that pointed-at point, the line gives how much from straight ahead (parallel to the axis of the cue stick) the cue ball will swerve over. If that angle is equal to the squirt angle, the cue ball will end up going parallel to the stick after the swerve, but with some offset. If the swerve angle is greater than the squirt angle, then the path of the cue ball will cross over the "straight ahead" line.

Jal

01-29-2008, 12:33 AM

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Vapros:</font><hr>... And does swerve go on forever? I have seen diagrams online that indicate it might...<hr /></blockquote>It ends when the cueball reaches natural roll. The distance to where natural roll is attained depends on the speed of the shot and how much draw or follow is used, as well as the condition of the cloth. For a center-ball hit though, and a not too sticky and not too slick cloth, this distance for various initial cueball speeds can be figured to be about as follows:

2 mph -- 4 inches

5 mph -- 24 inches

10 mph -- 100 inches

20 mph -- 400 inches

To gauge these, an initial speed of 2 mph is about what it takes for a ball to travel one 9' table length before coming to a stop, while 5 mph is about lag speed. 9-10 mph will get you 3 table lengths, and 20 mph about 5. The larger distances listed are of course for an imaginary table without rails. On a real table with real cushions, a ball starting out at 20 mph wouldn't attain natural roll until rebounding from the second cushion and nearly reaching the third one on its five table length journey.

The distances listed above are affected slightly by how much sidespin (english) is present as well, but hardly at all, I think.

Typically, for non-masse like shots, a swerving cueball changes its direction of travel at the largest rate just as it reaches natural roll. But in a manner of speaking, the swerve that occurred earlier does more damage since it acts over a larger distance.

(...in case anyone is in need of a factoid fix)

Jim

Artemus

01-29-2008, 09:10 AM

WOW, what's that smell in the air and why is there suddenly ground fog?

LOL, I didn't even recognize it at first. It's only CHALK DUST. I didn't even see JAL behind the building slamming the erasers together to get the dust out. Oooops, there's Dr. Dave driving up to the front of the building in his 4 wheel drive vehicle with the Harley in tow. Looks like he's unloading about 10 or more cases of new chalk. I didn't think a Googan get together was scheduled until the beginning of Feb., at least that was what's on my calendar. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

dr_dave

01-29-2008, 11:24 AM

Artemus,

You better be careful. For all you know, Jal might really be big and tough and ride a Harley. If you keep up your constant harassment of him, he might try to track you down and teach you a few manners.

Dave

PS: I drive a Subaru and ride a mountain bike (non motorized), so you don't need to worry about me. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr> WOW, what's that smell in the air and why is there suddenly ground fog?

LOL, I didn't even recognize it at first. It's only CHALK DUST. I didn't even see JAL behind the building slamming the erasers together to get the dust out. Oooops, there's Dr. Dave driving up to the front of the building in his 4 wheel drive vehicle with the Harley in tow. Looks like he's unloading about 10 or more cases of new chalk. I didn't think a Googan get together was scheduled until the beginning of Feb., at least that was what's on my calendar. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Artemus

01-29-2008, 11:33 AM

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> Artemus,

You better be careful. For all you know, Jal might really be big and tough and ride a Harley. If you keep up your constant harassment of him, he might try to track you down and teach you a few manners.

Dave

PS: I drive a Subaru and ride a mountain bike (non motorized), so you don't need to worry about me. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
<hr /></blockquote>

I wasn't harrassing JAL in particular, I was messing with ALL of you. But just have JAL PM me, I'll GIVE him my address. No sense in wasting time tracking, and I doubt he's the outdoors type with Indian blood who would know how to track.

Hmmm, I would have figured you to be a Prius kind of guy.

Let's make a switch, you send me a book on etiquette by Miss Manners and I'll send all of you DVD's from Richard Pryor, Eddie Murphy, Chris Rock, Sam Kinison, Larry The Cable Guy, and Ron White to teach you how to laugh.

av84fun

01-29-2008, 11:38 AM

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Vapros:</font><hr> ... My question is this: does he make an automatic adjustment in his aim, considering speed, stroke and the amount of english, or is there some other explanation for his success? Squirt figures to be present, yet he is able to deal with it and make the shot. ... <hr /></blockquote>
In my experience, the vast majority of top players compensate for squirt, swerve and throw (you left out those other two) subconsciously and automatically. Many good players -- top pro level -- have no idea how much squirt their cues have. It is not useful information to them. See the ball, see the pocket, see the shape, make the shot. If you are playing well, it is as simple as that. I think it is a mistake to fill your thought process with all those little details unless you want to miss most of your shots.

However, I think that when practicing some shots, it is helpful to understand what is going on to try to figure out why you are missing certain shots. It's not necessary, though. If you miss a shot to the left, aim more to the right next time -- that will nearly always fix the problem, eventually. <hr /></blockquote>

I don't think that is true at all...except MAYBE in the case of swerve but certainly not in the case of squirt and/or throw.

Whenever a top player finds the need to use more than a minor amount of english, that player knows perfectly well on a VERY conscious level that the magnitude of throw is going to change and...not wishing to miss the shot...makes an appropriate adjustment.

Same with squirt. They THINK..."I'm going to hit hard with outside and so I'm going to aim for a thinner hit."

It is on those fairly rare instances that they FAIL to deal with those issues on a conscious level that they MISS and get that "dear in the headlights" look on their face.

Regards,
Jim

dr_dave

01-29-2008, 11:52 AM

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>Let's make a switch, you send me a book on etiquette by Miss Manners and I'll send all of you DVD's from Richard Pryor, Eddie Murphy, Chris Rock, Sam Kinison, Larry The Cable Guy, and Ron White to teach you how to laugh.<hr /></blockquote>Thank you for the offer, but I've already seen and enjoyed many of those DVDs. I'm not as uptight as it seems you think I am. I would offer to send you a manners book if I had one, but I doubt it would do much good.

I am to swerve,
Dave

Jal

01-29-2008, 12:02 PM

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> Artemus,

You better be careful. For all you know, Jal might really be big and tough and ride a Harley. If you keep up your constant harassment of him, he might try to track you down and teach you a few manners.<hr /></blockquote>Dr. Dave, not to worry. I've been working out with a pencil for a couple of years now...sometimes TWO at a time. In fact, your TP B.2 pushed me right up to the limit.

I say, Bring-Him-On!

(But, you and the rest of the gang will be there, shall we say, for moral support?) /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

You better be careful. For all you know, Jal might really be big and tough and ride a Harley. If you keep up your constant harassment of him, he might try to track you down and teach you a few manners.<hr /></blockquote>Dr. Dave, not to worry. I've been working out with a pencil for a couple of years now...sometimes TWO at a time. In fact, your TP B.2 pushed me right up to the limit.

I say, Bring-Him-On!

(But, you and the rest of the gang will be there, shall we say, for moral support?) /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif<hr /></blockquote>I grew up in a pretty rough neighborhood in inner-city New Orleans, and I held my own fairly well (even as a scrawny little kid), so you can count on me for more than just moral support if you need it. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

You better be careful. For all you know, Jal might really be big and tough and ride a Harley. If you keep up your constant harassment of him, he might try to track you down and teach you a few manners.<hr /></blockquote>Dr. Dave, not to worry. I've been working out with a pencil for a couple of years now...sometimes TWO at a time. In fact, your TP B.2 pushed me right up to the limit.

I say, Bring-Him-On!

(But, you and the rest of the gang will be there, shall we say, for moral support?) /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif<hr /></blockquote>I grew up in a pretty rough neighborhood in inner-city New Orleans, and I held my own fairly well (even as a scrawny little kid), so you can count on me for more than just moral support if you need it. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Dave <hr /></blockquote>

I'm not afraid of BIG, not afraid of somebody riding a Harley, I'm not afraid of more than one of you, I'm not afraid of whether you grew up in the ghetto or not. What I AM afraid of is UGLY! Tell me, is JAL UGLY? (and be honest)

Artemus

01-29-2008, 01:18 PM

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Artemus:</font><hr>Let's make a switch, you send me a book on etiquette by Miss Manners and I'll send all of you DVD's from Richard Pryor, Eddie Murphy, Chris Rock, Sam Kinison, Larry The Cable Guy, and Ron White to teach you how to laugh.<hr /></blockquote>Thank you for the offer, but I've already seen and enjoyed many of those DVDs. I'm not as uptight as it seems you think I am. I would offer to send you a manners book if I had one, but I doubt it would do much good.

I am to swerve,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Davie boy, Davie boy, I remember you when you DID have manners yourself. You're a meanie little Googan when you want to be.

bsmutz

01-29-2008, 04:27 PM

Over the years I've been here, I've never seen Dr. Dave abandon his manners unless someone else didn't use theirs first. Just what is it about calling people "Googans" and this place a "Googan Biker Bar" that is so f'ing funny to you that you have to repeatedly use it? I don't think anyone else here finds it funny. If you're trying to entertain us, you're definitely going about it the wrong way. If you're just entertaining yourself, then please keep it to yourself.
We're just a bunch of pool enthusiasts having discussions about pool and I think most of us would like to have these discussions without being ridiculed. I'm going to say thanks for your help even though I doubt seriously that you will stop.

CarolNYC

01-30-2008, 09:34 AM

My philosphy is "live and let live" "do your thing" "if it makes you happy, Im happy for you",no sweat off my back!
The googan theory is talking ALL the physics and geometry about this game to an exhausting level,but unless your out there actually shooting,it has no merit-
Ive asked my daughter,who IS A MATH WHIZ, to read some of the things posted here and she asks "Why are they doing that" Why are they measuring the slope of the butt on a 6" shot-if his arm was too high,lower it!-did the guy make the shot"
This is a hands on,feel,memory,blah,blah,game!Hands on!
Sometimes I have to reread things here 3-4x before I understand-I dont know how many anonymous readers come here,but Im sure this stuff blows them away-how many actually understand it-that could be frustrating to some!
I admire the intelligence and dedication, but take it with a grain of salt-one time I was called and asked "why I stuck up for Dr. Dave-he's just a math professor who exploits everyones knowledge"-MY RESPONSE-"so what-if it makes him happy,so be it-I still respect his knowledge"-
But in my opinion, you can have ALL THIS KNOWLEDGE but if you go into a tournament/match/game with just that, against a dedicated player who knows NONE OF IT, your going to get your a$$ kicked-
Its nice to see the discussions, but they have to be taken with a grain of salt-
I do not doubt Doctors of physics and geometry, but, in this game , we'll also need a few Doctors of pyschiatry ,too /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Have a great day!
Carol

Eric.

01-30-2008, 10:18 AM

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> But in my opinion, you can have ALL THIS KNOWLEDGE but if you go into a tournament/match/game with just that, against a dedicated player who knows NONE OF IT, your going to get your a$$ kicked-
Its nice to see the discussions, but they have to be taken with a grain of salt-
Carol
<hr /></blockquote>

And that really is where the whole thing boils down to.

If this game were Chess, than the "smartestest" person would have teh advantage.

Unfortunately, just knowing ain't enough to be an expert in Pool.

Eric &gt;theory means you're still guessing

dr_dave

01-30-2008, 11:00 AM

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> But in my opinion, you can have ALL THIS KNOWLEDGE but if you go into a tournament/match/game with just that, against a dedicated player who knows NONE OF IT, your going to get your a$$ kicked-
Its nice to see the discussions, but they have to be taken with a grain of salt-
Carol<hr /></blockquote>

And that really is where the whole thing boils down to.

If this game were Chess, than the "smartestest" person would have teh advantage.

Unfortunately, just knowing ain't enough to be an expert in Pool.

Eric &gt;theory means you're still guessing <hr /></blockquote>For the record, I agree completely with both of you here. However, I still think pool knowledge and understanding can be useful to some (if not many) in building intuition and confidence through intelligent practicing and diagnosing. For more explanation, see the links under "mental aspects" here (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads.html).

Regards,
Dave

Deeman3

01-30-2008, 11:14 AM

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> But in my opinion, you can have ALL THIS KNOWLEDGE but if you go into a tournament/match/game with just that, against a dedicated player who knows NONE OF IT, your going to get your a$$ kicked-
Its nice to see the discussions, but they have to be taken with a grain of salt-
Carol
<hr /></blockquote>

And that really is where the whole thing boils down to.

If this game were Chess, than the "smartestest" person would have teh advantage.

Unfortunately, just knowing ain't enough to be an expert in Pool.

Eric &gt;theory means you're still guessing <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Eric,

I've hit Dave and others pretty hard on this in the past but feel there is value to the information they provide to may more than we might think. If this knowledge serves to get someone started in the right direction or improve their game, that's all the better.

I still think, like you and Carol, that practical experience is the most important thing but it's nice to know the detail of the physics as a learning tool and "just to know" as well.

Besides if all we talk about is which chalk is best, the board would be pretty lame. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif</font color>

CarolNYC

01-30-2008, 11:53 AM

Hi Dave,
[ QUOTE ]
still think pool knowledge and understanding can be useful to some (if not many) <hr /></blockquote>
Yes-I agree!

Confidence is trust and faith that you can PERFORM-so I agree with the practicing part /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

At one of my daughters band concerts, one kid was EXCELLENT on oboe-like Kenny G.-just amazing-his first concert in the auditorium-he choked-he KNEW everything,but couldnt perform
/ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif
There lies the term "choking"
Take care!
Carol

CarolNYC

01-30-2008, 11:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Besides if all we talk about is which chalk is best <hr /></blockquote>
Ha Ha ha-PLEASE,lets not go there,ha ha ha
Carol

I've hit Dave and others pretty hard on this in the past but feel there is value to the information they provide to may more than we might think. If this knowledge serves to get someone started in the right direction or improve their game, that's all the better.

I still think, like you and Carol, that practical experience is the most important thing but it's nice to know the detail of the physics as a learning tool and "just to know" as well.

Besides if all we talk about is which chalk is best, the board would be pretty lame. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif</font color> <hr /></blockquote>

Dee,

I definately agree that Pool knowledge has it's place and can cut the learning curve to improving.

Just so I don't seem like I'm beating around the bush, I was referring to the opinion that knowledge is a smaller part of the "level of importance" in Pool. My opinion is that knowing a lot of Pool theory, doesn't make one an expert. Also, I feel that without obtaining a certain level of skill, the theories are mostly unproven and in fact, not mastered. Jsut to use an example, one can say "to power draw a ball table length, you need to stroke level, follow through, and hit the CB very low". That looks great on paper, but without the skill to execute that, you will be lacking a lot of the subtleties that also go with executing that shot. There are subtleties that aren't visible, that can make the difference between drawing the rock back to the end rail or, just getting it to come back a foot or so.

Hope all is well with you, Dee.

Eric

CarolNYC

01-30-2008, 12:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
My opinion is that knowing a lot of Pool theory, doesn't make one an expert. Also, I feel that without obtaining a certain level of skill, the theories are mostly unproven and in fact, not mastered. <hr /></blockquote>
I agree!

Carol

wolfdancer

01-30-2008, 12:10 PM

Bill, I think you have summed it up nicely. I think we can do without the name-calling, and "orders"...when all anybody is doing, until recently..is sharing ideas about the sport.
Looks like "someone" has decided HE is the resident pool expert here.
I'd be willing to back Deeman though, if he got a little weight....

dr_dave

01-30-2008, 12:13 PM

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr>...intuition is independent of knowledge<hr /></blockquote>I guess that depends on how you define "intuition." Isn't intuition based on experience, and don't people develop understanding with experience. Sometimes you just know the ball will react a certain way or that you need to adjust your aim a little with a certain type of shot, or you just know where to aim without thinking. Isn't that a fair definition of "intuition" in the context of pool? I think intuition can be based on both knowledge and experience. If somebody's intuition is sometimes wrong, then he of she just doesn't know any better and is just guessing. I think this could result in less confidence.

Regards,
Dave

CarolNYC

01-30-2008, 12:34 PM

Hey Dave,
I always have and always will have respect for what you say!
[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes you just know the ball will react a certain way or that you need to adjust your aim a little with a certain type of shot, or you just know where to aim without thinking. Isn't that a fair definition of "intuition" in the context of pool <hr /></blockquote>
To me, thats a definition of experience!

Carry on and have a great day!
/ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Carol

dr_dave

01-30-2008, 12:37 PM

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> Hey Dave,
I always have and always will have respect for what you say!<hr /></blockquote>Thanks and ditto!
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>Sometimes you just know the ball will react a certain way or that you need to adjust your aim a little with a certain type of shot, or you just know where to aim without thinking. Isn't that a fair definition of "intuition" in the context of pool <hr /></blockquote>
To me, thats a definition of experience!<hr /></blockquote>Fair enough. How would you define "intuition" in the context of pool?

I've hit Dave and others pretty hard on this in the past but feel there is value to the information they provide to may more than we might think. If this knowledge serves to get someone started in the right direction or improve their game, that's all the better.

I still think, like you and Carol, that practical experience is the most important thing but it's nice to know the detail of the physics as a learning tool and "just to know" as well.

Besides if all we talk about is which chalk is best, the board would be pretty lame. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif</font color> <hr /></blockquote>

Dee,

I definately agree that Pool knowledge has it's place and can cut the learning curve to improving.

Just so I don't seem like I'm beating around the bush, I was referring to the opinion that knowledge is a smaller part of the "level of importance" in Pool. My opinion is that knowing a lot of Pool theory, doesn't make one an expert. Also, I feel that without obtaining a certain level of skill, the theories are mostly unproven and in fact, not mastered. Jsut to use an example, one can say "to power draw a ball table length, you need to stroke level, follow through, and hit the CB very low". That looks great on paper, but without the skill to execute that, you will be lacking a lot of the subtleties that also go with executing that shot. There are subtleties that aren't visible, that can make the difference between drawing the rock back to the end rail or, just getting it to come back a foot or so.

Hope all is well with you, Dee.

Eric <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Eric,

As usual, we see things just about the same. I'm doing well but miss having anyone to play one pocket with. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif</font color>

wolfdancer

01-30-2008, 02:02 PM

I'm doing well but miss having anyone to play one pocket with.
I just need 11/4, but insist on meeting in a neutral state. Thar's a bounty on democrats, down thar in Alabama......

CarolNYC

01-30-2008, 03:08 PM

Uh-oh,your probably going to kill me,but,here goes:
[ QUOTE ]
Fair enough. How would you define "intuition" in the context of pool?
<hr /></blockquote>
I dont think intuition has anything to do with pool-ahhhhhh!

I think the "just knowing" has to do with
Implicit memory (taken from dictionary) which is a type of memory in which previous experiences aid in the performance of a task without conscious awareness of these previous experiences,like tieing your shoe or riding a bike
Please,dont slam me too bad! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
Carol

dr_dave

01-30-2008, 03:38 PM

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> Uh-oh,your probably going to kill me,but,here goes:<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>Fair enough. How would you define "intuition" in the context of pool?<hr /></blockquote>
I dont think intuition has anything to do with pool-ahhhhhh!

I think the "just knowing" has to do with
Implicit memory (taken from dictionary) which is a type of memory in which previous experiences aid in the performance of a task without conscious awareness of these previous experiences,like tieing your shoe or riding a bike
Please,dont slam me too bad! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
Carol<hr /></blockquote>I don't know why your intuition told you I would want to "slam" this reply. Sounds reasonable to me.

I know how to tie my shoes because I learned (and now implicity understand) how to form the bow, and because I have practiced it a zillion times. Now shoe tying seems intuitive to me.

When first learning to tie one's shoes, I think it helps to have a good teacher who understands how to observe and guide the student with explanation and positive reinforcement. I think this type of learning can give faster results than just blindly trying it over and over again without understanding or insight until you get it to work.

Now you can "slam me" if you want. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Regards,
Dave

CarolNYC

01-30-2008, 03:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know why your intuition told you I would want to "slam" this reply. Sounds reasonable to me.<hr /></blockquote>
Now, why did my intuition tell me you would respond just like that /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
When first learning to tie one's shoes, I think it helps to have a good teacher who understands how to observe and guide the student with explanation and positive reinforcement <hr /></blockquote>
Fair enough!

[ QUOTE ]
Now you can "slam me" if you want. <hr /></blockquote>
Never in a million years-I have a Math scholar of my own-maybe one day you and her can "butt" heads /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ QUOTE ]
trying it over and over again without understanding or insight until you get it to work.
<hr /></blockquote>
Where were you when I learned how to tie my shoe? /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Have a great evening!
Carol

Deeman3

01-30-2008, 04:00 PM

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> I'm doing well but miss having anyone to play one pocket with.
I just need 11/4, but insist on meeting in a neutral state. Thar's a bounty on democrats, down thar in Alabama...... <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Naw, we have the new "Catch &amp; Release" program here in Luverne. 11/4? You just say that 'cause you know I can't count that high!</font color>

Vapros

01-30-2008, 05:58 PM

It's hard to recall that this thread started out about swert and scurve, but I'm glad I asked. Several posters have given me some good input - stuff I really wanted to know.

But somebody just had to start this business about tying your shoes. A guy tried to teach me one time, over the phone, but we finally gave it up. I bought a pair of rubber boots and have worn them ever since. Afraid to take them off now . . . . /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

av84fun

01-31-2008, 12:04 AM

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr>...intuition is independent of knowledge<hr /></blockquote>I guess that depends on how you define "intuition." Isn't intuition based on experience, and don't people develop understanding with experience. Sometimes you just know the ball will react a certain way or that you need to adjust your aim a little with a certain type of shot, or you just know where to aim without thinking. Isn't that a fair definition of "intuition" in the context of pool? I think intuition can be based on both knowledge and experience. If somebody's intuition is sometimes wrong, then he of she just doesn't know any better and is just guessing. I think this could result in less confidence.

Regards,
Dave

<hr /></blockquote>

Interesting that "intuition" has come up in two threads recently...but no, intuition is NOT based on knowledge...

" <font color="red"> </font color> Intuition
The act or faculty of knowing or sensing without the use of rational processes; immediate cognition. See synonyms at reason.
Knowledge gained by the use of this faculty; a perceptive insight.
A sense of something not evident or deducible; an impression."

As you can see, intuition is devoid of any rational process and the acquisition of knowledge is THE most fundamental of all rational processes.

Note that knowledge can be GAINED by intuition but it cannot be BASED on it.

Regards,
Jim

Bob_Jewett

01-31-2008, 10:32 AM

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr> ... the acquisition of knowledge is THE most fundamental of all rational processes. ... <hr /></blockquote>
This is false.

av84fun

01-31-2008, 12:29 PM

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr> ... the acquisition of knowledge is THE most fundamental of all rational processes. ... <hr /></blockquote>
This is false. <hr /></blockquote>

Well....thank you for that insightful comment. However, you are incorrect.

The applicable definitions of "reason" are:

The capacity for logical, rational, and analytic thought; intelligence.
2 a (1): the power of comprehending, inferring, or thinking especially in orderly rational ways : intelligence (2): proper exercise of the mind (3): sanity b: the sum of the intellectual powers.

If you think that "intelligence"...."the power of comprehending"..."the sum of intellectual powers" etc. are not fundamental to the acquisition of knowledge, then you are mistaken.

I don't know what tangent you are getting off on here but with all due respect, you have a tendency to delve into minutia which, while valid in the context of scientific hair splitting has little, if any, PRACTICAL application in the game of pool.

Examples include our prior exhange on the subject of what constitutes a "level cue" wherein you made the distinction between the lower surface of the cue being level vs. the centerline of the cue.

Such information, while useful in the context of high school science class term papers, would make a difference in making/missing pool shots in MAYBE 1 shot in 500-1000.

But back to the topic, if you don't think that the acquisition of knowledge is rational, does that suggest you think it is irrational?

Regards,
Jim

wolfdancer

01-31-2008, 02:18 PM

"When first learning to tie one's shoes, I think it helps to have a good teacher who understands how to observe and guide the student with explanation and positive reinforcement. I think this type of learning can give faster results than just blindly trying it over and over again without understanding or insight until you get it to work."

I could have used some expert help like that, when i was trying to tie a bow-tie...never did figure it out.
When I hit the lotto though...first thing I'm going to hire me a dresser....pro, of course...
I've never been a good sports student...pool, golf, tennis, skiing...during the lesson...but after reading "Extraordinary Golf"...and thinking back...a lot of the fault lies with the instructor....they don't adjust their teaching method to the student...we all learn a bit differently...and "what we have here is a failure to communicate" Most teach with a negative style..."you're doing that wrong, etc" There's a series of Snooker instruction videos on YouTube, and I was impressed with the guy's positive style "that was close, etc" Kyle "Sarge" Aylesworth once told me he has 60 some ways of teaching pool, and matches one up with the student. As Fred Shoemacher wrote "it's the job of the teacher to bring out the genius within the student."
Well, thank God for loafers...cause I never did learn to tie my shoes either.
I think of playing pool as .......dancing...at first you have to watch your feet...later on you just move to the rhythm of the music.
I don't know enough about this...but think that a basic understanding of NLP would help any sports instructor.
wonder if i could get a job as an Arthur Murray Dance Instructor...maybe if they bring back the "Lindy" and the "Two-Step"

wolfdancer

01-31-2008, 03:08 PM

See the damage that you have done...asking a "charged" question like that?
Luckily it stopped short of death threats being issued, but people have resigned from the board over it.....and Dr. Dave had to build a special machine just to answer your question.
What was the question anyway...seems to have been lost in the confusion /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

CarolNYC

01-31-2008, 03:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
think of playing pool as .......dancing...at first you have to watch your feet...later on you just move to the rhythm of the music <hr /></blockquote>
I think of it as learning a musical instrument...for instance, if I wanted to play the flute (in our case,our intsrument is the cuestick),do you think I would be an expert player because I read about it for 3 years?

I could know EVERY SINGLE THING about the flute ,but if you hand me that instrument, I quarantee you,I wouldnt be able to play it and I KNOW this because I played the flute for 4 years (in school)and the ONLY reason I play it well is, I played it everyday!
Want me to play a little Jethro Tull for you:p
Carol

av84fun

01-31-2008, 04:00 PM

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
think of playing pool as .......dancing...at first you have to watch your feet...later on you just move to the rhythm of the music <hr /></blockquote>

How 'bout some Herbie Mann...Memphis Underground!!
(-:
I think of it as learning a musical instrument...for instance, if I wanted to play the flute (in our case,our intsrument is the cuestick),do you think I would be an expert player because I read about it for 3 years?

I could know EVERY SINGLE THING about the flute ,but if you hand me that instrument, I quarantee you,I wouldnt be able to play it and I KNOW this because I played the flute for 4 years (in school)and the ONLY reason I play it well is, I played it everyday!
Want me to play a little Jethro Tull for you:p
Carol <hr /></blockquote>

CarolNYC

01-31-2008, 04:05 PM

Ha Haaaaaaaaaaa,
The legendary jazz flutist himself,from Bklyn,NY-

I WISH!!!!
But thanks for having the faith,ha /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Carol

CarolNYC

02-01-2008, 08:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
when all anybody is doing, until recently..is sharing ideas about the sport <hr /></blockquote>
Jack,
Please dont treat me with ignorance (until recently)-I have never ONCE called you or anybody else a name-someone asked about the Googan thing and I,myself, was called a googan and recently was told what it meant-I just answered-
I gave my opinion and that was it-along with knowledge, it must be emphasized that, in order to learn, you must also be physically taught-
I have frequented Dr.Daves website and even printed out his principles of practice-do I dismiss his knowledge,NO-do I use it? Some,maybe.........but I wont "put the guy down" for what he enjoys doing-
I.myself, will spend an endless amount of time trying to root a cutting from one of my gardenias-thats my time-how you choose to use your time is fine with me-you can call me an idiot for trying to grow gardenias in NYC-but thats MY THING-
But if you feel Im wrong with what Im saying, just tell me-I have no problem with that and can accept it-I dont think you do, because, straight from one of Dr.Daves discussions you stated

:While there are many players that learned how to play great pool, without ever reading a book on the subject, I dare say no one has ever become a great player, from reading a book, and minimal playing time.
I could read all the books on walking on a balance beam, but until I spent hours on the apparatus, I'd fall on my a$$, just like the theoretical "theory" group would do, against the playing group.

Have a nice day!
Carol

wolfdancer

02-01-2008, 10:01 AM

Hey, it weren't you i was referring to...and I don't even know what a googan be, but it sounds like you need a HS diploma to become one.
I kid Dr. Dave myself.I'm with you on the learning curve...it's easily proved with kids that learn be imitating...