Think of it as this.The reason there are big armies is to protect one's country and it's people.But what's the point of having a huge military if your people are daying on the streets, if they don't have toilets.If they can't eat 3 meals a day.And this is just what india is doing.It's people are daying on the streets while india is busy buying MKIs and carriers.China has a bigger ecomany then india.But they still don't have a aircraft carrier.Why?Cause they want to devlop their people first so, so it can make sense if China is buying carriers.Pakistan and china are playing it smart while india is'nt

America respects Pakistan and will never try to palm off downgraded F-16s to you. You just have to note the stream of high level American dignitries making the journey to Pakistan (and not the other way round), the fact that Musharaff was invited to Camp David, and not even Jiang Zeming, the praise, accords and agreements that have been sent, and finally the fact that America has recognised Pakistan as a nuclear power, that there is respect for your country.

American military assistance programmes to Pakistan have always been with strings attached. The first military assistance extended in the 50s was linked with U-2 flights over Soviet territory from the northern airfields of Pakistan.

After a U-2 plane was shot down by the Russians and the US pilot was captured in 1961, America came up with an alternative programme to continue its reconnaissance mission over the Soviets in which they provided to the PAF two special B-57 aircraft having drooping wings and booster engines equipped with sensitive electronic equipment capable of flying up to a ceiling of 100,000 feet.

The operation continued till 1965 when the US placed an embargo on all military supplies to Pakistan as recce-missions were being conducted through satellite surveillance.

In the late 60s, the US was involved in the Vietnam conflict which continued till the mid-70s, and Pakistani airfields were used as staging posts. In return, sale of some military equipment and spare parts was allowed. In 1979, Russian forces entered Afghanistan.

In 1980 the US offered military assistance of $400 million, This was termed peanuts by president Ziaul Haq. With the massive increase of Soviet forces in Afghanistan, the US interest became strong and Pakistan was named a frontline state. In early 1981, the US offered a military package for the PAF consisting of two squadrons of F5E (40 aircraft).

As this particular plane is basically designed for an air defence role, it did not suit the PAF's requirements. This was communicated to the visiting US assistant secretary of state in June 81 with a request for release of the F-16.

To counter the Soviet military campaigns, the CIA was actively engaged in supplying weapons worth million of dollars to Afghan fighters. The sale of F-16s was also agreed to.

A PAF team discussed the formalities at the Pentagon in the first week of July 1981, and was advised that delivery of the planes would be after 42 months from the date of signing the letter of offer. However, with the special approval of the American president, 12 F-16s were supplied within one year, out of which six arrived in February 1983 and the balance continued as per schedule.

After the defeat of the Russian forces and retreat of their last soldier from Afghanistan, the US mission was accomplished. Two things happened - all mujahideen who fought the Afghan war were branded as jihadi and Pakistan lost its frontline status and, consequently, came under the fire of the Pressler amendment.

The incidents of 9/11 have again changed the scenario and Pakistan has again assumed the status of a frontline state and non-Nato ally. The release of the F-16s is in this context. The PAF should ensure that all eggs are not in one basket again.

Rumsfeld Discusses F-16 Sales in PakistanBISHKEK (Reuters) - Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf discussed Pakistan's purchase of U.S. F-16 aircraft among a range of issues, a senior U.S. defense official said on Thursday.

Washington recently lifted a 15-year ban on the supply of F-16 fighters to Pakistan, a major ally in the U.S.-led war on terrorism launched after the Sept. 11 attacks.

The announcement angered India, Pakistan's nuclear-armed rival and neighbor, but the United States also offered to sell India F-16s as well as the more advanced F-18 Hornet.

The U.S. official, briefing reporters on board Rumsfeld's aircraft as he traveled to Kyrgyzstan, said no decision had been made on the number of F-16s Pakistan would buy, or when they might be delivered.

Lt. Gen. Jeff Kohler, head of the U.S. Defense Security Cooperation Agency, which handles foreign arms sales, was in Pakistan on Thursday to discuss the F-16 purchase, the official said. He declined to be identified.Asked if Pakistan would seek to buy the most advanced Block 60 version of the F-16, bought by the United Arab Emirates, the official said: "I don't know."

"The (U.S.) staff people are assessing what they want."

Pakistan has not publicly specified which version of the F-16 it is seeking, except to say it wants advanced aircraft.

In a statement on Thursday's talks with Kohler, the Pakistani Defense Ministry said: "The early delivery of hi-tech F-16 aircraft capable of firing AMRAAM missiles ... needed to be expedited."

AMRAAM stands for advanced medium range air-to-air missile.

Pakistan was also seeking AIM-9M missiles, which can also be installed on F-16s, TOW-II missiles, C-130 aircraft, 155 mm howitzers and TPS-77 radars, the ministry said.

Rumsfeld arrived in Pakistan on Wednesday from Afghanistan, where President Hamid Karzai said he planned to ask Bush for long-term security protection for Afghanistan. The United States has more than 17,000 troops fighting in Afghanistan.

Rumsfeld praised Pakistan's cooperation in the war on terrorism, which has seen Pakistani security forces arrest hundreds of al Qaeda and allied militants.

However, despite improved relations between Afghanistan and Pakistan, some Afghan officials complain that Taliban guerrillas are still finding sanctuary in Pakistan, which backed the Taliban during their 1996-2001 rule of Afghanistan.________________________

Interesting... F-16F (Block 60) was mentioned... I can't wait for the details of this deal to be finalised.

I am quite sure that the Pakistan Air Force will be acquiring AIM-120B/Cs as well as AIM-9Ms alongside the F-16s, though they may lack JDAMs, as long as they can post a threat to Indian planes in the air, its all good.

LAHORE: A bill to block the sale of F-16s to Pakistan unless it grants access to AQ Khan was introduced in the United States Congress on Tuesday.

Congressman Gary Ackerman presented the bill and was co-sponsored by representatives Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, Joseph Crowley, Robert Menendez, Frank Pallone and Diane Watson. The legislation is now with the House International Relations Committee, which has jurisdiction over the issue.

Earlier on April 4 while announcing the legislation, Ackerman, who is the Democratic co-chairman of the Congressional Caucus on India and Indian Americans, had said, “It is incomprehensible that we should provide sophisticated military equipment to Pakistan when President Pervez Musharraf refuses to let us interview AQ Khan.” United States intelligence agencies have tried to interview Khan about his clandestine nuclear activities, but Musharraf, who put him under house arrest, has not allowed the US access to him.

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ISLAMABAD: Pakistan on Thursday asked the director of the US Defence Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) to ensure that F-16s and other defence equipment being sold to Pakistan was delivered early. “Lt Gen ® Ali Muhammad Jan Aurakzai, secretary defence production, during a meeting with a five-member delegation of the DSCA — headed by Lt Gen Jeffrey B Kohler — said that F-16 aircraft, C-130s, AIM-9-M TOW-11 missiles, 155-mm Howitzers and TPS-77 Radars needed to be delivered as soon as possible,” a press release said. The DSCA director told the meeting that he would ask the authorities concerned to expedite the delivery of defence equipment ordered by Pakistan. The DSCA delegation said the prices of defence items needed to be rationalised and cost effective. Gen ® Aurakzai briefed the delegation about the steps taken by Pakistan against the war on terrorism and highlighted the role of the Pakistani armed forces and security agencies in fighting terrorism. “Terrorism is our common enemy and we need to combat it together,” he said. Lt Gen Kohler praised Pakistan’s role in fighting terrorism and both sides held a detailed meeting. The meeting was attended by Maj Gen Ali Baz, additional secretary to the ministry of defence production, Ann Breiter, acting director of political/military for the US State Department, Rear Admiral Craig McDonald, chief ODRP of the US Embassy, Colonel Milton, chief SAO ODRP, Mr Mosely, Colonel Kundson and Mrs Londgmire. Maj Gen Haider Jawed, director general defence purchase, gave a detailed presentation to the delegation about the defence requirements of the armed forces. The delegation also called on Lt Gen ® Tariq Waseem Ghazi, secretary defence. staff report

WASHINGTON: The White House said on Thursday that the sale of F-16 fighter bombers to Pakistan “does not change the overall balance of military power in the region,” and at the same time it is a recognition of the fact that these aircraft are “vital to Pakistan’s security.”

White House press secretary Scott McClellan said in answer to a question about F-16s to Pakistan that President Bush had “reached out to Prime Minister Singh and talked about it and our belief” that the sale of the aircraft to Pakistan does not alter the military balance in the region. He added that strategic dialogue with India on such matters would continue.

McClellan said the question of F-16s had not come up at the meeting on Thursday between visiting Indian external affairs minister Natwar Singh and President Bush. Asked what had been discussed between the two, he replied, “The meeting really focused on ways to strengthen our bilateral relationship. And this was a briefer meeting than usual because it was with the foreign minister, not the prime minister. And as you’re aware, Prime Minister Singh will be coming to Washington this summer, and the president looks forward to that visit. And the president will be going to India at some point, as well. We haven’t set a time for that, but the president looks forward to making a trip there, as well. But this was focused on some of what Secretary Rice talked about recently on the strategic dialogue, and some of the new initiatives that we’re undertaking. And so they talked about the economic and energy and strategic cooperation that we have on bilateral issues. And that was really the focus of the meeting. We’re going to be continuing to talk about some of the dialogue that we’re having on issues like energy, and I think you’ll be hearing more on that from the State Department and others as we move forward.”

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POL-LD-US-Pakistan US assures Pakistan of prompt delivery of F-16 aircraft

ISLAMABAD, April 14 (KUNA) -- The US on Thursday assured Pakistan of prompt delivery of arms and F-16 jet fighters, said a statement.

A five-member US defense delegation, led by Lt. General Jeffrey B. Kohler, Director of Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) of USA, called on Pakistan's Defense Secretary Tariq Waweem Ghazi and discussed matters pertaining to the defense cooperation between the two countries, said the defence ministry in a statement.

General Kohler said that the US was very sensitive to the defense requirements of its crucial war ally. He, appreciating the role of Pakistan in fighting the menace of terrorism, affirmed that all efforts would be made to expedite the delivery of all arms and aircrafts that Pakistan has requested.

The statement said the Pakistani defense secretary expressed the hope that the revitalization of relations between Pakistan and the United States would tremendously benefit both sides.

Both sides underlined the need for further expansion and the enhancement of relationship as there existed a wider scope of cooperation between the two countries in different areas, the statement added. Pick up the previous. (end) amn.

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It is unclear who will pay for the purchase of 100, let alone 200 F-16s. At $60 million a copy, a 100-aircraft shopping basket would run up a price tag of $6 billion. This rises to $12 billion for 200 aircraft. The mid-point of this range represents about 10 percent of Pakistan’s gross domestic product and is clearly beyond Pakistan’s financial reach

The debate continues to rage on whether a poor nation like Pakistan, where a third of the population lives in extreme poverty and more than half is illiterate, should be spending billions of dollars on sophisticated multi-role fighters like the F-16. This is a very important issue and the debate should continue not only in the media but also in universities and think tanks and ultimately in the National Assembly. The point that national security depends as much on softer factors such as social, economic and political development as on harder military factors cannot be over-emphasised.

However, there is another question that needs to be debated in parallel. It has to do with the role of F-16s in Pakistan’s military strategy. There are three main views on this subject.

The first school of thought opines that the weapon will be used in a purely defensive role, to deter an Indian invasion. Should the IAF intrude into Pakistani airspace, the F-16s would be used to intercept and destroy the invading aircraft. Lesser aircraft in the PAF inventory, such as Mirages and F-7s, would be used in a ground attack role to take out units of the Indian army.

The second school holds that the weapon will be used in a purely offensive role to carry out a nuclear air strike deep inside India. Presumably, such an air strike would be launched only if India has invaded Pakistan, cut off its main north-south communication arteries and destroyed the bulk of Pakistan’s armoured and artillery units. The purpose of the nuclear strike would be to prevent a final surrender.

A third school believes that the weapon would be used in both roles. But the numbers being provided to the PAF are clearly insufficient for undertaking both roles with a reasonable probability of success.

As with anything else related to the F-16 deal, there is controversy about the number of aircraft that would be provided to Pakistan. Initial press reports suggested 25. However, others have argued that there is no limit to the number. One source suggests that the number is 100, another 200.

It is unclear who will pay for the purchase of 100, let alone 200 F-16s. At $60 million a copy, a 100-aircraft shopping basket would run up a price tag of $6 billion. This rises to $12 billion for 200 aircraft. The mid-point of this range represents about 10 percent of Pakistan’s gross domestic product and is clearly beyond Pakistan’s financial reach, even if the economy continues to grow at the Shaukat Aziz projection of 8 percent a year. Phantasmagoric numbers should not underpin Pakistan’s strategic calculations.

A more reasonable shopping basket might be 40-50 aircraft, which when added to the 32 in the current inventory, would be sufficient to equip six squadrons.

The other question is when would the aircraft be delivered. It takes years to build an F-16. Late 2008 would be the earliest time of delivery if new planes are supplied. If more than 25 aircraft are ordered, final shipments may run into 2009-11.

The controversy not withstanding, what is the best military use of the F-16s? The answer depends on what is Pakistan’s military objective vis à vis India.

In IAF, the PAF faces one of the best-equipped air forces in Asia. It outnumbers the PAF by 6:1 in frontline aircraft and is likely to keep at least a 5:1 edge in the years to come. Aircraft in the IAF inventory include the first-rate SU-30 and MiG-29 multi-role fighters that can easily take on the F-16, especially if they are equipped with beyond-visual-range missiles. In addition, India has one of the best air defences in Asia. The Indian army is much better equipped than the Pakistani army and double the size. The disparity in forces is even more pronounced when we compare the two navies.

The PAF would be foolhardy to assume that its F-16s can penetrate Indian airspace at will. The F-16s would be detected at take-off and face a very high risk of being shot down within seconds of entering India.

Also, very sophisticated avionics are needed to deliver nuclear warheads by F-16 aircraft. It is unlikely that the US will provide such capability to Pakistan. Of course, Pakistan may be able to “bootstrap” such capability through other means. But this carries the risk of equipment malfunction. Finally, there is the worst scenario – the possibility that the F-16s would be destroyed on the ground in a pre-emptive air strike by India.

It may be in recognition of these difficulties that the war planners in Islamabad embarked on a ballistic missile development programme years ago. The solid-fuel Shaheen I and II missiles are capable of delivering nuclear warheads almost anywhere in India. Those, rather than the F-16s, would be the preferred weapons in a doomsday scenario. However, like any other scenario, this has its risks. For Pakistan, the risk would be destruction of the missiles and/or their launchers.

War games at numerous institutions suggest that Pakistan’s armed forces are not in a position to hold off a full-scale Indian invasion. The IAF enjoys air superiority over the PAF and Indian air defences are much better than Pakistan’s. This military imbalance cannot be overcome with bravado alone.

Should the IAF be prepared to sacrifice its own aircraft, it can destroy the PAF within a couple of days. Without air cover, the army is expected to fold in seven days. Gwadar may save the Pakistani Navy from being bottled up in the Karachi harbour, as happened in Karachi in 1971. However, it cannot save Pakistan from losing the ground battle.

Thus, the most valuable use of the F-16s is a purely defensive one, to ward off an Indian invasion by making it prohibitively costly to India. A nuclear war is a journey from which few come home. It is so much better to embark on a journey of peace and friendship. Perhaps the bus journey from Srinagar to Muzaffarabad will transform the relationship between India and Pakistan to the point that war ceases to be an option for settling disputes.

PMLN high-ups were celebrating after elections on 11 May Gujrawala, A family were going past husband/\wife/kids on motor bike & pmln party members stooped & dragged the woman & gang raped her.... Thats pmln democracy...------------------------------------------------------Try attending a Janaza like this and then you will know what it means to be in a war ! What it means to pray over your fallen friends who had fought alongside you in battles. The families of our sons and brothers in armed forces are doing this everyday -- leaving behind thousands of orphans, widows and old grieving parents. This is a war our haramkhor politicians do not want to acknowledge. Elections in these times of war would mean more deaths, destruction and chaos. Then there will be no time for tauba, just punishments. Wake up now before it is too late.

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Pakistan may be able to buy as many F-16s as it wants, however that obviously does not mean it will buy a unlimited number. Many sources (reliable ones) have put up a reasonable and believable guesstimate that the fleet of F-16A/Bs will be increased to approx 40-50, and in addition to that, 60-70 new F-16C/D Block-52. Funding will obviously come from Pakistan (mostly), with some help from the KSA and UAE.

QUOTE

In IAF, the PAF faces one of the best-equipped air forces in Asia. It outnumbers the PAF by 6:1 in frontline aircraft and is likely to keep at least a 5:1 edge in the years to come.

Well this person obviously did not do his/her research or mis-counted, either would have been foolish when writting an article for many to read. The Pakistan Air Force operates somewhere like 350 fighter aircraft (according to PakDef's WM Usman Shabbir), whereas the IAF operates somewhere like 700+, obviously the current numerical ratio is 1:2 in IAF's favour.

QUOTE

Aircraft in the IAF inventory include the first-rate SU-30 and MiG-29 multi-role fighters that can easily take on the F-16, especially if they are equipped with beyond-visual-range missiles.

Well, the MiG-29 and F-16 stand about equal, but even PAF F-16s will likely be armed with BVRAAMs, so the MiG-29 is also threatened. In addition to that, the MiG-29 didn't have a very graceful record fighting F-16. The Su-30MKI however, its a different story, it's radar supposedly has more range and track, and it can fire a BVRAAM from a minimum of 50km (R-77, current version), and 70km (R-77 Ramjet version). Similarly however, if a PAF F-16 has support from a Erieye AEW&C, and armed with a AIM-120B, it can fire at a MKI 50-70km away. However, in South Asia, my bet is that most BVR engagements won't go beyond 25km, so this would depend on who has the more range and better missile (and in future cases, MKI probably wins). However, the IAF fleet, not including Su-30MKI, are very likely to fall pray to F-16 and JF-17, and the PAF is likely to get all of its F-16s before IAF gets its MKIs, so yes the balance is significantly shifted, however still in IAF's favour.

QUOTE

The Indian army is much better equipped than the Pakistani army and double the size. The disparity in forces is even more pronounced when we compare the two navies.

The armies fall about even, however the navies, there can be no comparison, the Indian Navy is by far (on paper) much larger and stronger than the Pakistan Navy. However, India's coastline is a lot bigger than Pakistan's, and I doubt we'd see the entire Indian Naval Armada clogged up on Pakistan.

The rest of this person's article, I think a 13 year old can write a better one.

this person is one of those pseudo intellectuals who can only see the glass as half empty .

Look at his knowledge, misquoting the numerical strengths of Pakistan army,as well as also misquoting the price of F-16's by 50%.

F-16's what we will be getting have a price range of 35-40 million$ . He is saying it to be at 60 Million$.

No doubt peace and friendship is welcome but not on indian terms and conditions. If they solve kashmir dispute according to the wishes of the people. then why should we have any grudge against indians . And by the way , if they are sincere then why are they amassing large quantities of armaments. why couple of F-16's to Pakistan can harm their security and 126 warplanes which they are getting is justified.

Pakistan must strengthen its defences given the track record of indians.

and people like these painting a gloomy picture of our country should go and have some research before giving their ###### opinions in the national press.

I've noticed that with regards to the F-16s most people are overlooking some key facts.

go to www.F.16.net and check F-16 versions

The F-16 blk52 and F-16 blk60 are actually two completly different aircrafts, just like the Mirage 3/5 and Mirage 2000.

The F-16 blk 52 costs $35-45mil, its a pure 4th generation aircraft and is completly at par with India's M2ks and Mig-29s. The F-16 blk 52 is infact superior to the Saab JAS-39 Grippen. It has a lower RCS and its radar is very difficult to jam. Plus it is cheap to operate.

The F-16 blk60 costs approx $60mil, its a 4.5 gen aircraft (like Eurofighter & Rafale) it would have been 5th gen if it had stealth otherwise it is very advanced, it has several systems linked with the JSF program it carries the APG-80-1 phased array radar(F-22 carries APG-79), it has the most powerful internal electronic warfare suite of any current operational aircraft, I have forgotton the name of the system but the same system could be carried externally by the F-18E/F and it has a IR heat tracker. Also if you check F-16.net it states the blk60 version has been designed specifically to be upgradable and is future compatible with next gen U.S missiles, its the blk-52 which has neared design limitations (but it could be upgradded if an MLU2 is introduced) not the blk60. If you do some honest reaserch you would find that it could be assumed that the blk60 surpasses the Su-30 electronically, hence it is definatly the best answer to Pakistan's Sukhoi problem.

Also another thing overlooked is that Lockhead has designed a new exhaust nozzle for the F-16 and JSF programs called LOAN (Low Observable Axisymetric Nozel). This nozzel significantly reduces exhaust heat making the aircraft almost invisible to Heat sensors, reducing threat of SRM's. This system comes optional with the F-16 blk60 depending on customer and could also be installed on F-16MLUs.

So my suggestions is buy F-16blk52s in bulk and once our ground crews are capable of handling the new technology buy 2 sqds F-16 blk60s allotted to air superiority duty.

Logistically fielding two versions of the F-16s is more viable than to introduce a new 4th gen aircraft like the J-10 which still needs to mature, this also solves our Su-30 problem.

So what Pak should is 1. First buy 24 F-16 blk52's.2. Simultanously restore existing Fleet with MLU upgrades and bring them at par with blk52 standards. Also import technology for full self reliance on F-16 spares and airframe overhauls.3. Buy at least 2 sqds of F-16 blk60s for air superiority.

In a significant move the US aviation manufacturer Lockheed Martin offered to build 'exclusive' F-16C Block 70 fighters for the IAF.

Mike Kelly, the Senior Executive of Lockheed Martin, claimed the projected F-16C Block 70 versions to be “much superior to any existing fighters in service in the world”

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------THEN WHY THEY ARE

F-16s and Indian hue and cry

When the Indians, with all their craze for acquiring a formidable arsenal of military hardware, start protesting against Pakistan’s attempt to refurbish its depleted stock, they present a pathetic sight.

One can, perhaps, understand Indian Prime Minister Dr Manmohan Singh’s “great disappointment” when President Bush called to put him in the picture about his decision to go ahead with the sale of F-16 fighter aircraft; for, New Delhi has put in so much effort to stall the deal that it must feel disappointed when it finally comes off. The US, though, had obviously its own reasons for denying Islamabad’s request for so long and now in a radically changed scenario the need to accede to it.

But as Dr Singh grumbles about the “negative consequences for India’s security environment” that F-16s’ acquisition by Pakistan would have he not only appears unconvincing but also oblivious of the massive stockpile of offensive weapons his armed forces hold. The rest of the world obviously knows better.

The Indian Air Force is the 4th largest in the world and a major customer in the international market. Currently, there are three big manufacturers competing to get attractive contracts. Dassault Aviation of France is offering IAF Mirage-2000, SAAB of Sweden Gripen and RSK MiG Corporation of Russia MiG-29.

Statistics show that New Delhi is one of the biggest buyers of military hardware in the international arms market. Its defence budget has gone up by about 50 percent in the past four to five years and for 2005-06 that began on April 1, it stands at well over $18 billion. And 41 per cent of it is earmarked for modernisation purposes. If Islamabad’s mere $3.5 billion defence budget gives it jitters, it needs to put its own house in order.

To its existing inventory of 738 fixed wing aircraft for the air force (against Pakistan’s 353) India, according to available indications, wants to add 200 combat aircraft (126 multi-role and 74 strike and air defence). The navy has 37 fixed wing aircraft (against Pakistan’s five) and is being strengthened with more planes as well as six submarines intended to be purchased from France. At present it has 19 submarines (against Pakistan’s 10) and 29 surface ships (against Pakistan’s eight).Estimates about nuclear missiles vary but conservative sources claim that New Delhi possesses 60 while Islamabad 25.

India plans to get Patriot anti-missile missile system from the Pentagon, modern weaponry from Israel and rocket launchers from Russia. Washington has given Tel Aviv a green signal to sell it $1.1 billion worth of Phalcon AWACS Israel is building under licence from the US, while Islamabad’s request for a credible radar system has not elicited any response.

The asymmetry in helicopters and other fields is no less sharp. India’s 3,590 main battle tanks, 1,315 light armoured vehicles, 200 wheeled armoured vehicles, 1,381 artillery vehicles and 1,495 vehicles with missiles – all this equipment in wide variety and make – far outnumber what Pakistan has in these categories.There is no chance ever that the two dozen odd F-16 combat jets that Islamabad is likely to order for the present could redress this grave imbalance, let alone tilt the balance to have “negative consequences” for New Delhi. The preponderance of India in the conventional military sphere is a reality that Pakistan faces with no intention of upsetting it and something that is recognised the world over.

Most analysts, including foreign analysts, hold the opinion that had Pakistan not possessed nuclear deterrence, India would have literally swept across the international border in 2003 when it had brought forward almost its entire land and air force in battle-ready position. Such is New Delhi’s superiority in conventional weaponry. But nothing else should be expected from the amount of money that it is spending to become the regional warlord.

Its defence allocation for the year 2005-06 is up by 7.8 per cent over the last year’s (Indian) Rs 770 billion and accounts for ten times the combined allocation made for the health and education sectors. It is a frighteningly high level for a country that has 300 to 400 million poverty stricken people.

Yet New Delhi does not hesitate even to try to blackmail Washington to make it change its mind about the sale of the multi-role jets to Islamabad and proffers the twisted logic that the deal “is inappropriate and ill-timed” and “will have an adverse impact on the ongoing dialogue (the peace process with Pakistan)”, which the US is very keen to see succeed.

Apparently, it believes that its own mad search for sophisticated military hardware from any available source would not figure in a sane person’s calculation and that he would buy the idea that Pakistan, with the acquisition of this fighter aircraft, would become too dangerous for India.

Washington always ready to appease New Delhi gave it a better option: it was simultaneously offered the choice of buying F-16s, F-18s or any other state-of-the-art warplanes it wished to add to its stockpile and their co-production facilities, to boot. That means the Pentagon would be transferring technology of the aircraft as well, should India choose to accept the offer.

Somehow, the Indian Prime Minister feels it is “premature” for him to say ‘yes’ to the offer. He would take up the matter with President Bush during his upcoming visit to Washington. And rest assured he would be making his last bid to dissuade his host from going ahead with the deal with Islamabad. One should not, in fact, be surprised if on failure to do so he were to decide against accepting the otherwise attractive offer of any US warplane it wished to choose, just to spite the US.

Lockheed Martin, the manufacturing firm of F aircraft series, is passing through a lean period and before the sale to Pakistan was confirmed it was thinking of retrenching nearly 5,000 of its employees. The purchase by Pakistan and the proposed deal with India would enable it to retain these employees and, perhaps, hire more.

In the meantime, a propaganda campaign underlining the harmful result of supplying fighter jets to Islamabad has been launched. Its own media and leadership apart, Indian expatriates and lobbyists have become active.

Old timers like Larry Pressler, former Senator from South Dakota and known for his anti-Pakistan Amendment after his name, have been brought forward. Pakistan suffered badly because the country-specific Pressler Amendment had a crippling effect on its defence capabilities. Larry, who was at the time of introducing the amendment and still is on the board of directors of Indian expatriates’ IT firm Infosys Technologies, has unleashed a tirade against Islamabad terming it a “profitless partner (of the US)” and drumming up the charge of transferring nuclear technology to “our worst enemies” against it. He has raised the spectre of the “biggest problem” in the region China and advocated all help to India, including military aid and free trade agreement, to enable it to serve as a bulwark against the emerging power of Beijing.

It has become fashionable these days for Western and particularly US political analysts to ring alarm bells about the appearance of China as an economic giant on the global stage. They somehow overlook the fact that it has been able to do so only because it has resolutely pursued peaceful policies, letting the development and modernisation of its armed forces take a back seat.

But the strategists, who dream of the US permanently remaining the dominant global power, would keep looking for dangers even where they do not exist and raising scare. They are going to be sadly disappointed if they think that when coming to the crunch New Delhi would play the US card.

Despite raising a hue and cry and making painstaking essays to gain support against the F-16 deal with Pakistan, India is hardly likely to succeed this time round.

U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf on April 14 discussed Pakistan’s purchase of U.S. F-16 aircraft, a senior U.S. defense official said.

Washington recently lifted a 15-year ban on the supply of F-16 fighters to Pakistan, a major ally in the U.S.-led war on terrorism launched after the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks.

The announcement angered India, Pakistan’s nuclear-armed rival and neighbor, but the United States also offered to sell India F-16s as well as the more advanced F-18 Hornet.

The U.S. official, briefing reporters on board Rumsfeld’s aircraft as he traveled to Kyrgyzstan, said no decision had been made on the number of F-16s Pakistan would buy, or when they might be delivered.

Lt. Gen. Jeff Kohler, head of the U.S. Defense Security Cooperation Agency, which handles foreign arms sales, was in Pakistan on April 14 to discuss the F-16 purchase, the official said. He declined to be identified.

Asked if Pakistan would seek to buy the most advanced Block 60 version of the F-16, bought by the United Arab Emirates, the official said: "I don’t know."

Pakistan has not publicly specified which version of the F-16 it is seeking, except to say it wants advanced aircraft.

In a statement on the talks with Kohler, the Pakistani Defense Ministry said: "The early delivery of hi-tech F-16 aircraft capable of firing AMRAAM missiles ... needed to be expedited".

AMRAAM stands for advanced medium range air-to-air missile.

Pakistan was also seeking AIM-9M missiles, which can also be installed on F-16s, TOW-II missiles, C-130 aircraft, 155 mm howitzers and TPS-77 radars, the ministry said.

Rumsfeld arrived in Pakistan on April 13 from Afghanistan, where President Hamid Karzai said he planned to ask Bush for long-term security protection for Afghanistan. The United States has more than 17,000 troops fighting in Afghanistan.

Rumsfeld praised Pakistan’s cooperation in the war on terrorism, which has seen Pakistani security forces arrest hundreds of al-Qaida and allied militants.

However, despite improved relations between Afghanistan and Pakistan, some Afghan officials complain that Taliban guerrillas are still finding sanctuary in Pakistan, which backed the Taliban during their 1996-2001 rule of Afghanistan.

Islamabad: Pakistan has asked the US to supply F-16 fighter jets capable of firing medium range air-to-air missiles and sought their expeditious delivery along with several other high-tech military equipment.

The visit of the American delegation led by Lt General Jeffrey B. Kohler, Director of Defence Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA), came a day after Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's visit to Pakistan during which he held talks with President Pervez Musharraf on a host of issues including, the US sale of F-16s. Defence analysts here attach significance to Pakistan seeking F-16s with AMRAAM Missile capability as the missile system is considered to be medium BVR category with ability to hit a target beyond 60 km range.

BVRs are considered to be most advanced missiles which Pakistan Air Force (PAF) so far does not have and is trying to acquire. It was, however, not clear whether the sale of F-16s with capability to fire AMRAAM missiles would also include the supply of the missiles themselves. US initially proposed to sell 24 F-16s, each costing around USD 40 million and PAF wanted to buy 70 planes.

PMLN high-ups were celebrating after elections on 11 May Gujrawala, A family were going past husband/\wife/kids on motor bike & pmln party members stooped & dragged the woman & gang raped her.... Thats pmln democracy...------------------------------------------------------Try attending a Janaza like this and then you will know what it means to be in a war ! What it means to pray over your fallen friends who had fought alongside you in battles. The families of our sons and brothers in armed forces are doing this everyday -- leaving behind thousands of orphans, widows and old grieving parents. This is a war our haramkhor politicians do not want to acknowledge. Elections in these times of war would mean more deaths, destruction and chaos. Then there will be no time for tauba, just punishments. Wake up now before it is too late.

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My views of 10 years or five minutes ago do not necessarily reflect my views right now. My thoughts and opinions and viewpoints will change as I learn more and develop my understanding of the things I am posting about. I consider this a necessary consequence of having an open mind. I reserve the right to allow my viewpoints to evolve and to change my thoughts viewpoints and opinions over time without assigning any reason.

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My views of 10 years or five minutes ago do not necessarily reflect my views right now. My thoughts and opinions and viewpoints will change as I learn more and develop my understanding of the things I am posting about. I consider this a necessary consequence of having an open mind. I reserve the right to allow my viewpoints to evolve and to change my thoughts viewpoints and opinions over time without assigning any reason.

Pakistan may be able to buy as many F-16s as it wants, however that obviously does not mean it will buy a unlimited number. Many sources (reliable ones) have put up a reasonable and believable guesstimate that the fleet of F-16A/Bs will be increased to approx 40-50, and in addition to that, 60-70 new F-16C/D Block-52. Funding will obviously come from Pakistan (mostly), with some help from the KSA and UAE.I would like u to put up few examples where UAE HAS financed Arms FOR Pakistan. plz don't make this into a arab supporting bull.

If we get F16 Block 50/52 i bet that our aircraft werent lock onto indian Su-30s this is what america did to UAE i think or one of the arab countrys so there F16s dont lock onto Israeli F-16s.

Hardly doubt that would be the case. Trust me, it's all business. Israel, other countries can understand but India? This won't put a good image on America if other countries are buying from American defense firms.

If we get F16 Block 50/52 i bet that our aircraft werent lock onto indian Su-30s this is what america did to UAE i think or one of the arab countrys so there F16s dont lock onto Israeli F-16s.

UAE can lock on and fire at any enemy aircraft, just Israel has the UAE's AIM-120 codes, and could use them in their countermeasures. Only Egypt can't lock on to Israeli aircraft, but Egypts a different story. Pakistan's F-16s (if it gets them) will be able to lock on and shoot enemy IAF planes.

UAE can lock on and fire at any enemy aircraft, just Israel has the UAE's AIM-120 codes, and could use them in their countermeasures. Only Egypt can't lock on to Israeli aircraft, but Egypts a different story. Pakistan's F-16s (if it gets them) will be able to lock on and shoot enemy IAF planes.

If what u r saying is true then do tell me just a question not attacking any one .other then the dumb ass Arabs. just Israel has the UAE's AIM-120 codes, and could use them in their countermeasures. What is the point of buying this . if they gave the codes to your enemy.what is the point of supporting and purchasing from a country that supposrts your enemy with economicaly and militarly. unless u r just buying these birds to creat jobs in Usa and have uncle sam help u stay in power.

If what u r saying is true then do tell me just a question not attacking any one .other then the dumb ass Arabs. just Israel has the UAE's AIM-120 codes, and could use them in their countermeasures. What is the point of buying this . if they gave the codes to your enemy.what is the point of supporting and purchasing from a country that supposrts your enemy with economicaly and militarly. unless u r just buying these birds to creat jobs in Usa and have uncle sam help u stay in power.

India isn't Israel, and the U.S won't give India any source codes for AIM-120, as that would risk Pakistan going into the Chinese sphere of influence.

In a bid to bag lucrative deal from India which is seeking 126 Multi-RoleCombat Aircraft, the United States has offered to put the sales of its F-16's and F-18's on fast track Government-to-Government basis and said the companies would offer major sops in the form of technology transfer and co-production.

A high level US Defence team led by Lt Gen Jeffrey B Kohler, today held marathon discussions with the top Indian Air Force officials and submitted detailed technical parameters of the two fighters, the F-16 Block 70 Fighting Falcons manufactured by Lockheed Martin and Boeing's twin engined upgraded F-18 Super Hornets.

US officials sought to assure India's fear on sanction by saying "stakes were much higher now and the two sides would have to think twice before precipitating any such action".

After a round of meetings to submit the Request for Information(RFI), Kohler, Director Defence Security cooperation Agency said the two US companies had been allowed to bid for Indian purchases and the aviation majors would be offering the most upgraded version of their fighters to India.

He said a more detailed presentation would be given by the company officials themselves when they bring their fighters to India for trials.

SUPERFLANKER thank u .i was just going to post this .I think its a Given in Pakistan that no Matter what Arabs do in the world they r good for Pakistan .No matter how many times uncle sam stabs us we will always be there for them. they can walk over us when ever they feel we will not complain. THIS IS TO ALL PAKISTANIES (IAM A PROUD Pakistani) WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE.LEARN TO STAND ON YOUR OWN LEGS.DONT BEG.

I am so happy that Pakistan is getting this deal finally espicially for 3 billion dollars for 70 thats a steal i remember on the news couple years back saying that poland bought 48 F-16's for 3 billion dollars.

Then later on we can talk to our chinese brothers and se what we can do in terms of reverse engineering and apply that to the JF17.

Rumsfeld Discusses F-16 Sales in Pakistan
BISHKEK (Reuters) - Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf discussed Pakistan's purchase of U.S. F-16 aircraft among a range of issues, a senior U.S. defense official said on Thursday.

Washington recently lifted a 15-year ban on the supply of F-16 fighters to Pakistan, a major ally in the U.S.-led war on terrorism launched after the Sept. 11 attacks.

The announcement angered India, Pakistan's nuclear-armed rival and neighbor, but the United States also offered to sell India F-16s as well as the more advanced F-18 Hornet.

The U.S. official, briefing reporters on board Rumsfeld's aircraft as he traveled to Kyrgyzstan, said no decision had been made on the number of F-16s Pakistan would buy, or when they might be delivered.

Lt. Gen. Jeff Kohler, head of the U.S. Defense Security Cooperation Agency, which handles foreign arms sales, was in Pakistan on Thursday to discuss the F-16 purchase, the official said. He declined to be identified.
Asked if Pakistan would seek to buy the most advanced Block 60 version of the F-16, bought by the United Arab Emirates, the official said: "I don't know."

"The (U.S.) staff people are assessing what they want."

Pakistan has not publicly specified which version of the F-16 it is seeking, except to say it wants advanced aircraft.

In a statement on Thursday's talks with Kohler, the Pakistani Defense Ministry said: "The early delivery of hi-tech F-16 aircraft capable of firing AMRAAM missiles ... needed to be expedited."

AMRAAM stands for advanced medium range air-to-air missile.

Pakistan was also seeking AIM-9M missiles, which
can also be installed on F-16s, TOW-II missiles, C-130 aircraft, 155 mm howitzers and TPS-77 radars, the ministry said.

Rumsfeld arrived in Pakistan on Wednesday from Afghanistan, where President Hamid Karzai said he planned to ask Bush for long-term security protection for Afghanistan. The United States has more than 17,000 troops fighting in Afghanistan.

Rumsfeld praised Pakistan's cooperation in the war on terrorism, which has seen Pakistani security forces arrest hundreds of al Qaeda and allied militants.

However, despite improved relations between Afghanistan and Pakistan, some Afghan officials complain that Taliban guerrillas are still finding sanctuary in Pakistan, which backed the Taliban during their 1996-2001 rule of Afghanistan.
________________________

Interesting... F-16F (Block 60) was mentioned... I can't wait for the details of this deal to be finalised.

Can you please provide the source of that news?

This means that the PAF has the option to buy the F-16 BLock 60s.

Thank you.
Khuda Hafiz.

Assalam-o-Alakum. Salam.

“Quality is better than quantity, but after a certain limit, quantity is better than quality.”MAQ.

SUPERFLANKER thank u .i was just going to post this .I think its a Given in Pakistan that no Matter what Arabs do in the world they r good for Pakistan .No matter how many times uncle sam stabs us we will always be there for them. they can walk over us when ever they feel we will not complain. THIS IS TO ALL PAKISTANIES (IAM A PROUD Pakistani) WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE.LEARN TO STAND ON YOUR OWN LEGS.DONT BEG.

U.S will provide us AIM-9M missiles, which can also be installed on F-16s, TOW-II missiles, C-130 aircraft, 155 mm howitzers and TPS-77 radars.

Pakistan is getting all these equipment because it is a nuclear power and is in need of these equipment to balance the power in South Asia, although it will slightly balance the power.

Pakistan is working on JF-17 which will be a 3.5 generation aircraft to replace all the aircrafts like Mirages III/Vs, F-7s, A-5s. This aircraft will be close to F-16 A/B which Pakistan already has, and also it will be BVR equipped, the BVR will be SD-10.

Right now, April 24th 2005, There are rumours that Pakistan is having problem with engine of JF-17.

Pakistans GDP will jump from 3% to 7% this year.

Because of the GDP, there are rumours that defence expenditure is going to increase too.

Pakistan has ordered 4 F-22p Friggates from China.

Pakistan is working on submarines called Agosta-B.

Pakistan is looking for another 4th generation aircraft, the possibilities are J-10, Grippen, and Rafael.

Pakistan is also looking for AWACs aircrafts, the chances are that we will be getting 6-7 AWACs Erieye.

"The ink of the scholar is more sacred than the blood of the martyr." - Prophet Muhammed Sallallahu ‘alayhi wa sallam"A man's true wealth is the good he does in the world." Prophet Muhammed Sallallahu ‘alayhi wa sallamhttp://friendswithoutborders.org/

How about putting the AESA APG80 radar of block 60 on block 52+ along with the necessary electronics so that the block 52+ (costs about US $ 40-45) retains its agility and obtains to an extent the lethality of block 60 (Costs about US $70mil).

Remember that block 52/52+/60 have the same airframe except that the 52+ and 60 can carry CFT's if required (hence a longer range for strike missions). The 52/52+ have the same engines as well. The 52+ and 60 also have the same internal electronic countermeasure system (ASPJS), another important sensor in an aircraft. Besides the 52+ has most of the striking abilility of the 60. Other than the radar i dont think the block 60 has much in it for PAF to after it. I think in PAF scenario, the above renders going for block 60 somewhat unnecessary due to its exessive procurement and maintenance cost.

One more thing, there are additional sensors and equipment in block 60 that makes it heavier by 4000 lbs (empty) than the block 52+ and hence lesser agile althoug the engine is also upgraded by 1500 lbs (dry)

Does any one know that what will be the cost differential for replacing the radar how improved the radar is over the APG68V9. Afterall the US is going for a V10 development for its f-16s and not for this AESA APG80 radar. Does that mean that the radar is not significantly superior to V9?

The Block-52+ and Block-60 use the same airframe, putting the Block-60's radar on Block-52+ wouldn't make too huge of a difference. I suggest buying either Block-52 F-16s or Block-60s, nothing in between, no point in spending extra money for R&D and integration.

Ok, I just thought that F-16 normally has a limited flighttime, and block 60 would offcourse allow longer time in the air.

"The ink of the scholar is more sacred than the blood of the martyr." - Prophet Muhammed Sallallahu ‘alayhi wa sallam"A man's true wealth is the good he does in the world." Prophet Muhammed Sallallahu ‘alayhi wa sallamhttp://friendswithoutborders.org/

The Block-52+ and Block-60 use the same airframe, putting the Block-60's radar on Block-52+ wouldn't make too huge of a difference. I suggest buying either Block-52 F-16s or Block-60s, nothing in between, no point in spending extra money for R&D and integration.

Actually putting the APG80 in to block 52+ should not require any R&D since the two air frames are structurally the same inside-out.

The APG80 is an AESA radar with enhanced detection ranges in all modes, increased number of modes, can search, track and attack in air-air and air-ground modes simultaneously, has enhanced ECM/ECCM abilities and is compatible with almost all current US armament. So replacing the V9 with this AESA will ofc make some difference and may actually not need much of integration efforts. The point is how much will the this replacement cost and how improved it is over the V9 which is not very well publicised since it is used by the US itself. It might be the case that this radar is actually not vastly improved over the V9 (to re-word, the V9 actually might be almost as good as APG80) and in that case we should only go for the block 52+

DF the block 52 and 52+ are different in many ways and 52+ is way more advanced than the 52 in range, payload, weapons, avionics/electronics and all.

Well, there's still no point in adding the radar on Block-52+, why just stop at the radar when you should be able to go for the whole thing (Block-60). The PAF should settle for the Block-52 or the Block-60, nothing in between, save a lot of money and buy a very good fighter, spend a lot of money and get a super-performance aircraft, no point in spending in between IMO.

You have 6bn USD;

You can buy 70 Block-52s for 3bn USD max, including everything, you get a really good fighter, very effective weapons, able to drive a lot of fear into IAF, you save a lot of money! That money could be directed into buying something more effective like the Multirole Rafale, which is much cheaper than the current version. With 3bn USD, you can easily buy 40 Multirole Rafales, which would drive a ton of fear into IAF.

On the other hand, you can buy 70 Block-60s for 6bn USD with everything, weapons, the works. Now you got a super powered fighter which is better than everything in IAF, and equal to the Su-30MKI. Now you don't need Rafale, you can spend some cash here and there to diversify your fleet, with J-10s or Mirage 2000-9s, etc.

on one hand the block 60 brings a phase array radarbut on the other we can get two advanced fighters which opens up two suppliers

i would favor the rafale choice because we can get upgrades as the rafale will continue to be developed as well as the manuevablity the plane has that make it i league with the su-30mki, where the f-16 in that field is still lacking

the rafale was designed from the begining to defeat the flanker series of fighters

the rafale will also be a psychological weapon agains the indian air force like the f-16's were in the 80's an early 90's

I support the option this option:

40 Rafales70 F-16 C/D40 F-16 MLU150 JF-17

p.s. the government has hinted that we are going for the block 52's, and we plan to go for another fighter besides the f-16 series, gripen has been denied to us, and the mirage 2000's were lacking in our evaluations, which leaves only the j-10, which is not as good as the the new f-16 we are getting in the electronic field, and only slightly better then the jf-17, which will benefit from their technology, and th eother option is the rafale which has been outlined by real PAF pilots as the exact plane we need to defeat the IAF in any air battle, when it comes to a Pakistani Rafale and an Indian Su-30MKI

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