A set Snowman Eater and a face-up Evolzar Laggia are the only monsters on the field. I attack the face-down Snowman Eater with Evolzar Laggia. My opponent allows the attack to go through and we enter the Damage Step. During Substep 2 Snowman Eater is flipped face-up. During Substep 3 I activate Forbidden Dress targeting my Evolzar Laggia. During Substep 4 I lose 100 Life Points. During Substep 6 Snowman Eater must target and destroy itself. Substep 7, Snowman Eater is sent to the graveyard.

Is this correct? Also, does a replay occur since Snowman Eater was destroyed?

phoenixrawr

04-30-2013, 06:01 AM

That is correct. A reply does not occur because the monster was destroyed in the Damage Step.

Zaborg_TM

04-30-2013, 06:36 AM

Does it work like that for other flip effect monsters like Gravekeeper's Guard as well? Just makin sure here

Redshift

04-30-2013, 07:08 AM

Correction: "Snowman Eater" is not sent to the Graveyard at the end of the Damage Step. It's sent to the Graveyard immediately upon destroying itself.

And yes, this works the same way for other Flip Effects, unless damage calculation destroys them (then they wouldn't be able to target themselves).

TheDarkestKnight

04-30-2013, 08:21 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong but once snowman effect activates even if he chains, its target and destruction happen simultaneously. Even though Dress says it wouldn't be destroyed also then it isn't but it doesn't stop the targeting aspect since it was targeted at the beginning of its effect and dress is chained as link two. By that time he already declared a target therefore Dress wouldn't force him to change target itself. Much like Effect Veiler. Even if you chain to it it's target had already been decided when the effect was activated.

Of course I can be wrong but I just want verification of my understanding.

bioober

04-30-2013, 08:24 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong but once snowman effect activates even if he chains, its target and destruction happen simultaneously. Even though Dress says it wouldn't be destroyed also then it isn't but it doesn't stop the targeting aspect since it was targeted at the beginning of its effect and dress is chained as link two. By that time he already declared a target therefore Dress wouldn't force him to change target itself. Much like Effect Veiler. Even if you chain to it it's target had already been decided when the effect was activated.

Of course I can be wrong but I just want verification of my understanding.

By the time Snowman Eater's effect activates, you are too far in the damage step to activate Forbidden Dress. You must activate it before Snowman Eater ever targets anything.

Jossein

04-30-2013, 08:52 AM

Snowman eater has not even activated at the time dress is.

[Hiita]

04-30-2013, 11:01 AM

Well, this goes against everything any judge has ever told me about dress, but apparently yes, this is correct. Dress is suddenly much better now in my mind. Setting your Penguin Soldier is no longer all that good..

Homer of Chaos

04-30-2013, 11:04 AM

Aww my post got deleted.

Well, this goes against everything any judge has ever told me about dress, but apparently yes, this is correct. Dress is suddenly much better now in my mind. Setting your Penguin Soldier is no longer all that good..

What have judges told you in the past?

Sir Slushy

04-30-2013, 11:12 AM

I thought "Sub-steps" weren't official terminology. So how would you go about explaining the situation to another person WITHOUT using "sub-steps"? For some reason I thought flip effects occurred during the time that the monster was flipped but before damage calculations o.o"

[Hiita]

04-30-2013, 11:15 AM

I thought "Sub-steps" weren't official terminology. So how would you go about explaining the situation to another person WITHOUT using "sub-steps"? For some reason I thought flip effects occurred during the time that the monster was flipped but before damage calculations o.o"

I thought "Sub-steps" weren't official terminology. So how would you go about explaining the situation to another person WITHOUT using "sub-steps"? For some reason I thought flip effects occurred during the time that the monster was flipped but before damage calculations o.o"
That doesn't change the answer, so if substeps are what people are familiar with, use it. Substeps are still there; its just that the term "substep" isn't officially recognized. It's rather pointless to say they don't exist though. It's like telling someone there are no cards that 'bounce' others back to the hand, just because that's not an official term.

Otherwise, explain it the way I did. Flip Effects activate/resolve after damage calculation. "Forbidden Dress" and co. can only be used at the start of the Damage Step or before damage calculation, but not during or after it. There's a reason you can't negate Gorz's effect to Special Summon a Token using "Forbidden Chalice".

AntiTcb

04-30-2013, 11:20 AM

I thought "Sub-steps" weren't official terminology. So how would you go about explaining the situation to another person WITHOUT using "sub-steps"? For some reason I thought flip effects occurred during the time that the monster was flipped but before damage calculations o.o"

After the Start of the Damage Step, Snowman Eater will be flipped face-up, but its effect won't activate at this time. Forbidden Dress can be activated at this time, or Before Damage Calculation, targeting Evolzar Laggia.

If so, during Damage Calculation, 100 Life Points will be lost due to Evolzar Laggia having 1800 ATK and Snowman Eater having 1900 DEF.

Later on, after Damage Calculation, but before the End of the Damage Step, Snowman Eater's effect activates, and since its the monster on the field it can target, it will target itself, and destroy itself.

We've now reached the End of the Damage Step where only Evolzar Laggia remains.