500 words a day on whatever I want

Adrian Piper: Cornered

“Cornered” (1988) is a piece of conceptual art by Adrian Piper, an American artist and philosopher. Like much of her art it concerns the nature of race.

In the corner of a room is a television behind an upended table. On the wall above are two copies of her father’s birth certificate: one says he is white, the other says he is octoroon (one-eighth black). There are chairs so you can watch her speak on the television for 16 minutes.

In the video she is sitting in the corner of a room at a table (not upended). She looks and sounds like a white middle-class woman who grew up in New York, maybe Jewish, maybe a teacher or a librarian.

She says, “I’m black.”

Does that upset us? Do we think she is making a big deal of her race? Do we think she is seeking attention to make it as an artist? Do we think she must hate whites? If we think any of these things we are assuming that anyone who can pass for white should, that white is better than black.

She is cornered: if she says she is black it upsets white people. And yet if she passes for white not only is it based on sick values, it means she has to listen to all the racist stuff whites say about blacks behind their backs.

Her blackness upsets whites for two reasons:

They have to watch themselves to make sure they do nothing racist.

It calls their own whiteness into question.

Some experts say nearly all so-called white Americans are between 5% and 20% black. Which, according to the rules of American society, makes them black too.

She asks whites:

Do you look into your family tree to find out if you are black?

If you are black:

Do you tell friends and people at work?

Do you keep it a secret?

Do you avoid looking into your family history altogether and continue to enjoy the advantages of being white?

Do you push the knowledge of your probable blackness into the back of your mind?

Do you just dismiss the whole thing?

No matter what you do, you make a choice.

Some will say that if you can pass for white you have no right to call yourself black: white-skinned blacks do not suffer enough. But if that is true, then you have nothing to lose by publicly calling yourself black. So why not try it and see? You could even take advantage of affirmative action! So go ahead! Do it! What is holding you back?

Piper:

It’s a genetic and social fact that according to the entrenched conventions of racial classification in this country you are probably black.

So if I choose to identify myself as black whereas you do not, that’s not just a special, personal fact about me. It’s a fact about us. It’s our problem to solve. So, how do you propose we solve it? What are you going to do?

“This woman seems completely white to me. But if she sees herself as black AND if other people see her as black, then she is black by US standards.”

Probably the vast majority of the world’s population and of Americans nowadays would just consider her mixed or even a white lady with a dash of African admixture (though the racial situation in the US in 1988 was quite a bit different than it is today). ODR is mind control, a suppression tactic. Don’t buy it.

Also, I believe modern genetics studies put the average African admixture of white-identified Americans at just 0.7%. If a large proportion of the white population had somewhere close to 20% African blood, alot of them would look something like Adriana Lima or Caetano Veloso, but that’s not the case.

The fact we all come from Africa doesn’t mean we’re all black. There were no black or white people for thousands of years. Races were created in a specific time and place in history, only a few centuries ago.

Yes. What you wrote is true (all pf our ancestors are Africans); however, that doesn’t mean they were black, because the concept didn’t exist back then. (Therefore, it’s pointless to argue “how black were ancient Egyptians” or “how white were Ancient Greeks”. They were not white or black at all).

So in light of this thread, the fact all of our ancestors are African has nothing to do with race.

This is a misunderstanding of the one-drop rule as it currently exists in the United States. It is not, or no longer, whether one has any black ancestry. It is whether one has any detectable “blackness” in one’s appearance. In fact whiteness is circular: you’re white if you pass as white, even as that category has broadened genetically over the years.

The rule has a corollary, which might be called the “half-drop rule”, which is white people with no detectable black appearance calling themselves biracial, because they have a “one-drop” black parent.

Nevertheless, no-one seems to be interested in challenging the one-drop rule: not black people, not white people, not mixed-race people, not Abagond, not Adrian Piper. The one-drop rule is not challenged by 15/16ths white people claiming to be black. It’s challenged by mixed-race people claiming to be white (as well as black), and by everyone accepting that.

To be honest, I think what Adrian Piper is doing is easier. Looking mostly white and claiming to be black is well within the tradition of American anti-racist activism. The reverse, looking mostly black and claiming to be white, seems like a betrayal of black solidarity. I don’t have any answers to this.

My understanding of the One Drop Rule is that if you look black enough not to be accepted by whites as one of their own while being accepted by blacks, then you are black. Your race is determined by society not by a DNA test.

What Piper is saying is that you can pass for white, like her, but if you out yourself you will still be considered black by whites. She says whites who doubt that can test their idea by telling everyone they know that they are black and stick to it and see what comes. Something she has done.

I agree that race is determined by white and black acceptance and that by appearance.

As for outing oneself, it depends on what you out. If you say that you have a black great-great-grandparent, I believe most white people will continue to see you as white.

On the other hand, if the same person insists that they are black, most white people will not dare contradict them, for fear that would be seen as somehow racist. That’s not so much outing oneself as simply defining oneself and having everyone else go along.

Adrian Piper says she’s black. Fair enough, it’s her right to identify herself any way she wants. But since she looks white (doesn’t she?) do you think she is accepted by whites as black the same way “more obviously black person” (in lack of a better term) is?

When I say “accepted” I mean, do whites see her and treat her as black the same way they do for blacks who can’t pass?

We already established the identity is not just how we see ourselves, but also how others see us. So, do people (both black and whites) see her as black?

Good question. I do not know enough about her to say. Maybe a post on her life is in order. I did read her letters to the New York Times that they did not print. She clearly feels she has been subjected to racism. I believe she outed herself in 1972 and soon after art galleries stopped showing her work. In 1988 when she made this piece she was making a comeback. Of course, people’s art careers can take bad turns for all sorts of reasons.

You might think the racism against her would be less because she seems white, but it could be worse if whites see her as turning against them, as hating them. Like Jim Zwerg, the white Freedom Rider the Klan beat up at Montgomery worse than his fellow black protesters. The same was true at Anniston: the Freedom Rider who was beat up the worst, who never walked again, was white.

The one drop rule is not something that Blacks perpetuated. In the south where most people were of Scotch Irish, English and Irish origin, anyone with a full lip was suspicious. Piper would be assumed to be Black in the south with the exception in Louisiana. If you had attained any standing it could be disastrous, if found out. This was not a century ago, it was during my life time.
There is an interesting story by Mark Twain, that describes the consequences of a child who was switched with a white child,Pudd’nhead Wilson.

If one passed, one lived in fear and had to give up family. Even white looking Black people have darker skinned relatives, even siblings as my maternal great grandmother and paternal grandmother. Genetics is a funny thing, my grandmothers father was very dark and her mother looked white( one white parent) the 14 children ranged in color degradation from brown to white, with basically the same genetic makeup.

When one has grown up Black, there is no identity crisis in what you are, your traditions, music, language and aspects of your culture binds you, even to those who pass. Sometimes those white looking black people would only pass, when traveling, eating in a restaurant or when helping other Black people get access, but never in social or work situations.

During slavery and Jim Crow, contrary to popular belief, it didn’t matter what color you were, you were still a slave or nigger. That concept still exist today.

“Adrian Piper says she’s black. Fair enough, it’s her right to identify herself any way she wants. But since she looks white (doesn’t she?) do you think she is accepted by whites as black the same way “more obviously black person” (in lack of a better term) is?”

In 2010 United States, an “octoroon” can be socially white even if they make their ancestry public. Now, if you embrace some spooky, metaphysical definition of blackness and claim to be black without looking black, some people will still take that seriously (but not everyone).

Mira,
A lot of Black people have that Mediterranean brow and bridge.
My sister has the Thalasemia Trait. It is thought that there were Portugeuse and Africans had landed here before the colonies had gotten established and had intermixed with the native Americans and both Black and white people.

Race is perceived through the visual. There is no Black person that doesn’t have and ancestor that is not from Africa.

I wish I could show you a picture of my mother. You would see where I would think Piper Black. Although a few have married white people, all of my light skinned relatives have considered themselves Black.

When I say “accepted” I mean, do whites see her and treat her as black the same way they do for blacks who can’t pass?

I would say yes (though “accepted” isn’t the word I would use), in that once you are “outed” (if it wasn’t already obvious) as Black, then many Whites will treat you as “non-neutral (White being neutral)–you are just like those other Blacks who are always whining/can’t take a joke. Anything you say about race/racism from that point on is “biased”.

It’s not just a phenomenon of “passing” though. The same thing can happen to a Black person who hangs out with only White people and then says something about racism. It seems like White people are quick to jump on the “us against them” mentality, though I think Abagond summed it up in #1 above.

@SagredoIt is whether one has any detectable “blackness” in one’s appearance. In fact whiteness is circular: you’re white if you pass as white, even as that category has broadened genetically over the years.

Over the past 6 or 7 years, I’ve come into contact with an increasing numer of white Americans of color. People who are certainly understood as white in day-to-day affairs but who make a point of telling you that they “really” are black, native american, latino or what have you.

I would think that this is a very convenient position to be in, unlike what Ms. Piper claims. One gets all the advantages of being white in the sense that less random BS is directed one’s way (driving while black, job interview failures etc.), but one can also conveniently wipe one’s hands of whiteness whenever necessary.

Three of the people I’ve met like this seem to be doing well for themselves by navigating this interface. One, for example, had an affirmative action position in Washington DC that was supposed to be open only to Native Americans. Another was down here a couple years ago doing research and most of their work is written from a very heavily self-identified black perspective and is, in fact, renowned for this.

While being white and “of color” might have been a problem in the past (even the near past, as Hathor points out), I don’t see it being much of a problem now. In fact, it can be a positive boon.

@HathorThere is an interesting story by Mark Twain, that describes the consequences of a child who was switched with a white child,Pudd’nhead Wilson.

One of the classics of American race literature. I especially like the end, where the children are switched back to their “proper” station in life. The young master, who had been born and raised a slave, could never feel comfortable in upper class white culture and always wanted to hang around in the kitchen, but he was rejected there, of course, because now he was white. And the young slave, who had been raised to be a master, got sold down the river.

Twain clearly understood that race is a social and not a biological concept, something which seem to confuse folks up to this very day (see Jason’s reaction, above, frex).

I wouldn’t use the term wigger in my analysis. A wigger is a wanabee, they try to identify, but really don’t understand in depth. It is all superficial.

A person I’m speaking of would have acknowledged their a”other” relatives, grew up around some of the customs, not taken a white view of their music or food. That is not to say that they would listen to ethnic music or eat ethnic food, but they would understand it or know why certain foods were in the diet.

Over the past 6 or 7 years, I’ve come into contact with an increasing numer of white Americans of color. People who are certainly understood as white in day-to-day affairs but who make a point of telling you that they “really” are black, native american, latino or what have you.

I would think that this is a very convenient position to be in, unlike what Ms. Piper claims. One gets all the advantages of being white in the sense that less random BS is directed one’s way (driving while black, job interview failures etc.), but one can also conveniently wipe one’s hands of whiteness whenever necessary.

Perhaps in my father’s generation having Black ancestry but passing for White was a big issue. In my generation and later I can’t see it as a big deal at all. As for people who pass as White but claim they are actually Native American or Black, there have been some people who claimed to be Native American but have later been found out to be lying… basically having 100% Euro (at least as far back as could be traced…) ancestry. Ward Churchill comes to mind. Russell Means (no ifs and or buts… Native American or as he prefers American Indian..) derisively calls them fake Indians.

The man, second from the left in the photo below doesn’t have a father with “Octoroon” on his birth certificate… his father is Black.

Marcus never hid the fact that his father was Black, he had photos of his father, his family and his father and mother in his house and his older brother was phenotypically Black. But he also didn’t run around making a big point about being Black or White.

Mixing Black and White doesn’t always end up in the same fashion as mixing chocolate and milk.

If Ms. Piper identifies as Black (presumably she was raised that way..) that’s her prerogative but I don’t see her experience as being the same as for most mixed people who could pass for White in the modern era. I would ones experience would vary a great deal.

Vin Diesel comes to mind as someone with Black ancestry who looks White… he pointedly honors his Black step father in interviews and calls himself a person of color when asked but describes his background as racially ambiguous.

Maybe her career faltered not because she “outed” herself but because she just wasn’t a very good “artist.” I’m not too impressed with this display or modern art generally. I would not put it in the same category of creative expression as Michaelangelo, Goya, or Picasso.

She’s older than I am and I don’t know what it was like being mixed in the 1970s and 1980s. However, US racialism definitely started to lose its dichotomous character by the 1990s. That’s when terms like “mixed” and “multiracial” began to enter the popular lexicon. That’s probably how the majority of Americans would describe Piper today. The only people who I am aware of who still subscribe to the invisible blackness dogma and all of its corollary concepts (e.g. “passing”, “outing”, etc.) are those who are self-consciously committed to propagating it.

FG,
When some black people have been raised as Black, how are they perpetuating the invisible Blackness. Mixed race has been a fact of life for most Blacks for centuries. To now say why identify as Black, apparently you have no understanding as identifying with anything.

If I live under Jim Crow and defined as Black and not half black or mixed race how am I to identify now. No big deal, the hell!

@Thaddeus, in the Native American world there are major issues regarding ‘quantum blood’ designations, exactly because of what the person you describe has done, relying on what is probably a self-defined ethnicity to procure a job in D.C. The debate is particularly important to Cherokees because so many Whites claim Cherokee ancestry with no way of establishing their connection by way of the rolls maintained by BIA. Many ‘self-defined’ try to make profit selling skills or art as authentic when they clearly are not. The deaths in Arizona in the sweat lodge are a recent example of someone usurping Native American culture for profit with tragic results. The problem is many First Nation people did move to urban areas, are mixed and have a real and genuine desire to reconnect with their ancestral customs and shouldn’t be maligned for that. Many Native Americans get swallowed up by the dominant Latino culture which definitely shares many of the same indigenous roots. I’ve debated this question with many other Native Americans with respect to how it might strengthen or weaken our efforts to preserve sacred sites, improve reservation conditions, etc. Indian boarding schools require 1/4 verifiable blood quantum to qualify for enrollment, but that doesn’t allow for many ‘urban’ Native Americans to apply. With resources so stretched the reluctance to include those who are unable to show direct lineage is obvious. Also, there is the added issue of ‘wannabees’ often unintentionally misrepresenting Native culture. Wouldn’t it nice if we just gave all kids the same access to a good education and medical care, just by virtue of their humanity.

Umm, she is not black. That is not black. It isn’t even enough to affect phenotype — there are plenty of European countries have around that amount of African admixture, yet they are white. The general consensus is that admixture begins to affect phenotype around 13-15 percent.

As a part of my ancestry test there was a forum where we could talk to others about their results and general human genetics/origins. There were a lot of white people that were 3-4 percent African in origin and they looked completely European. There was even a guy who was 10 percent African origin, and again, looked like any white person. No one is going to start calling them black tomorrow, and they would not start calling themselves black either.

“Does that upset us? Do we think she is making a big deal of her race? Do we think she is seeking attention to make it as an artist? Do we think she must hate whites? If we think any of these things we are assuming that anyone who can pass for white should, that white is better than black.”

She’s being dramatic. Race is a big deal in the U.S., but not that big of a deal.

@Roxannein the Native American world there are major issues regarding ‘quantum blood’ designations, exactly because of what the person you describe has done, relying on what is probably a self-defined ethnicity to procure a job in D.C.

Yep. I know.

The debate is particularly important to Cherokees because so many Whites claim Cherokee ancestry with no way of establishing their connection by way of the rolls maintained by BIA.

Common with blacks, too, actually. The Cherokee are notorious for this.

Note this, btw, Mira: with regards to how race works in the U.S., it’s traditionally the ODR for blackness, but you traditionally need a MINIMUM of Native “blood” to be considered an enrolled Indian.

Race is a lot trickier in the States than “People of Color” rhetoric would have you suspect.

“Over the past 6 or 7 years, I’ve come into contact with an increasing numer of white Americans of color. People who are certainly understood as white in day-to-day affairs but who make a point of telling you that they “really” are black, native american, latino or what have you.

I would think that this is a very convenient position to be in, unlike what Ms. Piper claims. One gets all the advantages of being white in the sense that less random BS is directed one’s way (driving while black, job interview failures etc.), but one can also conveniently wipe one’s hands of whiteness whenever necessary.”

I agree with Thad (amazingly).

I think it’s different if you have a black parent, and people don’t know about it. Then, if they find out, they might feel awkward around you. (An octoroon parent is not a black parent, not in this day and age…) But if you have distant African ancestry, you can use it as a “black pass”, while having none of the negatives that come with being black in America. In that sense, it’s a bit of a mockery.

You are speaking out your ass. You assume that all blacks are looking for affirmative action. I assure you someone like Harold Ford Jr, didn’t have to depend on the race card. The members of my family that may have looked white, either went to an HBCU or got into Ivy League schools with their test score and grades.

Since you have not lived your life as a Black or in a Black community in the US, I just wish you’d STFU.

I really don’t find the question of why certain predominantly European individuals of white appearance would choose to identify themselves as at least partly white that interesting. That’s a no-brainer pretty much everywhere except in the US. What I find more interesting is why people who are not mixed in any significant way would obsess over the identity of this very small population. That deserves much more attention.

You are speaking out your ass. You assume that all blacks are looking for affirmative action.

Hathor, the situation in the Cherokee tribe is quite complex and many black and white Americans have indeed requested to be enrolled based on their family histories. A couple of books have been written about this situation and I’ve seen it in operation. In the downtown National Archives in Washington D.C., for example, where I spent months pulling documents for research, there are two entire computers dedicated to BIA-geneology records for folks who are searching for enough Indian ancestors to claim Native American status. About 75% of the people who were using those computers (and they were almost alsways active) were African American.

In many cases, it’s not “affirmative action” which is at stake here, but enrollment in tribes which are doing a decent business in the cassino economy. In the specific case of the Cherokee, there’s a lot of inter-tribal racial politics which are envolved as well, with the “white” Cherokee trying to expulse the “black” Cherokee and both sides recruiting.

Here’s a take on the situation by Farrakhan’s happy crowd of fascists, which I presume is an “afro-centric” enough view for you to assimilate, Hathor. It’s not like this is some sort of esoteric or unknown bit of information:

I am still a bit confused about it, in part because I am not sure if we’re talking about this particular individual (Adrian Piper) or generally people in her situation.

I was mostly interested in understanding the ways blacks with white phenotype interact with other people (both whites and blacks) and what are the obstacles they face in everyday life, should they choose to out themselves.

Abagond,

I didn’t mean these people are having a great time; being “in the middle”, too X for Y and too Y for X is never a good thing. Still, what these people face is, I assume, different than what “obviously black” black (and mixed) people face.

It’s not like I don’t get this. After all, I am a mixed person who is basically only 1/4 of a different ethnicity than Serbian; however, I don’t identify myself as a Serb. This is simply not how I see myself. On the other hand, I do have a Serbian-sounding name and I am an Orthodox Christian so I don’t have to face any issues or questions and I don’t have to explain anything unless I want to.

I understand these things are different with the race in the US… But it’s not like there are no similarities.

I guess it’s all down to cultural ideas about what’s white and what’s black. I don’t doubt you know blacks who resemble Piper. And like I said, I know whites who resemble her. She looks like an average white person I know. Judging by the photo provided here, she could be a Serbian librarian 😀 (my mother worked as a librarian and Piper resembles her co-workers back in the 80s). Maybe she looks “less white” on other photos, but here she looks like an average white person I know.

(I am not arguing here that she IS white or that it’s impossible for anybody to see her as black/mixed – I’m just trying to explain why she looks completely white to me. Same goes for Wentworth Miller, btw., who deserves his own post (as Abagond promised).

On the other hand, like I mentioned in “Suggestions”, I always knew Slash was part black, while many people assumed he was white).

Exactly. This is one of the manuevers that’re going on in this on-going struggle among the cherokee. This issue didn’t pop out of nowhere last year, Hathor: it’s been ongoing since 1865 in one form or another.

FG,
Mixed raced people are not a small population in America. Not all look like they are mixed race. Color or straight hair is a crap shoot. I use those two, because that what most people see as African characteristics.

I think it’s different if you have a black parent, and people don’t know about it.

Agreed. That’s why I’m puzzled as to why people with Black relatives who are grandparents or more distant (great-aunts/uncles and such) fear being “outed” as Black. Wouldn’t people only know you had Black relatives if you told them?

In the picture above, Ms. Piper looks like a Puerto Rican Spanish professor I had a few years ago, but in more recent pictures, she looks like my Black great-aunt. I don’t think that when people say so-and-so “looks White” or “looks Black” they are basing it on a general conception of what they think Black or White people look like; they are basing it on people they know/have seen and making a comparison. I think I’m pretty bad at guessing people’s backgrounds, but my general guesses tend to be “X looks like [insert familiar person], who happens to be [insert race/ethnicity].

I think visual art is first of all a form of non-verbal communication, even if words are used. Sometimes more, sometimes less encrypted. But I think the more controversial and provoking, the more the message got across and the more the work itself justifies its reason to be. If the same artist sat there repeating “I am white”, I don’t think it would attract much attention. Therefore not much reflection and emotion either, which are actually an essential component in art. It would appear rather pointless to the majority of spectators. Or should I say, pointless to their perception?

Although of very a different genre, I’m thinking of the Magritte painting “ceci n’est pas une pomme” (this is not an apple). True, it’s not an apple. It’s a painting.

Respecting the perceptions of the crowd and their “generally accepted wisdom” is one thing. However that’s not the issue. Outsiders (non family members of mixed families) have to respect the facts and naturally occurring realities first. Nature doesn’t classify. Why should people? If I know for a fact that only one of my far ancestors was from a different ethnic group than most of my genetic composition suggests why should I be expected to comply to some sort of ultimatum? To either be deliberately silent about it and perhaps assume privileges or to “come out” (stupid term actually) and then to unambiguously identify with that ancestry alone.

The pics below give you an idea of what me, my older brother and baby sister looked like at some point in life. Type-wise, you get gist.

If you didn’t know anything about them, who is what? Who would pass as white, who as black? I bet there could be as many different opinions (because it really is just about opinion) as there are people.

My baby sister has a small nose, full lips, dark brown eyes, light skin and straight hair. My brother has a long nose, thinner lips, light brown eyes, darker skin and frizzy hair. Myself and my other two siblings are sort of in between. Anyway my older brother and my baby sister share the most similarities in basic character traits although they have the least physical similarities.

Outsiders may have questioned themselves and each other about us. Who is what? However the answers would be totally irrelevant because we know what we are, unambiguously. We have the same parents.

My bf passes for white in name and appearance, when he isn’t sporting his gorgeous long locks. He’s less than a quarter white. None of his relatives pass. Yet, whites and non-whites rarely think twice about referring to him as white if they don’t know him. He really isn’t fond of white people either. So, it’s offensive to him to be seen that way.

Whenever it comes up at work, he tells white people he’s not white and they accept it. Sometimes, it’s accompanied by sputtered excuses because they were making racist comments about his people or other POC. Strangely, non-white colleagues are the people he has the hardest time convincing.

i think just about every black american person has some relative that or has had some relative that could pass for something other than black…passing stories are okay, but I feel like they get over done sometimes…I want to hear about what its like to be a dark-skinned black person and what its like to never be able to pass for anything other than black that would be an interesting story.

Since my family comes from the British Caribbean were even you know that most of the people who look phenotypically white (like my grandmother) actually have black ancestry, the American idea of skin color= blackness is still odd to me. I have difficulty understanding the angst that many mixed race folks have in America because I don’t see any problem with being identified as black and Caribbean folks just take it as fact that you have white ancestry no matter what your skin color. Piper is dealing with this issue in some remarkably creative ways while most of her extended family has passed for generations, she stubbornly put the sexual history of this country on blast. I really enjoy her work.

“Some experts say nearly all so-called white Americans are between 5% and 20% black. Which, according to the rules of American society, makes them black too.”

Who are those experts? According to this study that used autosomal markers, white Americans are, on average, 0.7 percent black and 3.2 percent Amerindian. Another study used mtDNA markers and found similar results: 0.9 percent black and 2.2 percent Amerindian.

This suggests that the majority of white Americans do not have any black ancestry, which means that the premise of Piper’s work is false. This is not surprising, because the one-drop rule was specifically designed to keep the white gene pool “pure”. The second paper I linked to notes that “social practices in Latin America and in the United
States diverge considerably; in the former socially significant ‘races’ are normally designated according to physical appearance, while in the latter descent appears to be the most important factor”.

“Agreed. That’s why I’m puzzled as to why people with Black relatives who are grandparents or more distant (great-aunts/uncles and such) fear being “outed” as Black. Wouldn’t people only know you had Black relatives if you told them?”

See this shows how little you know about the mixed race experience. Most people don’t subscribe to the Jim Crow principles you espouse, such as “passing” and “outing.” In modern day US, you can be a socially white person even though if it is known that you have relatives who are eye-balled as black. If you look basically European (and even if you have a bit of ambiguity in your appearance) and possess Euro-American cultural characteristics, a large segment of the US populace will accept you was white.

Learn to read. That’s what I just said, that it makes no sense for someone to worry about those “mean Black people” outing them as Black if they have no immediate Black identifiers, either in phenotype or close relatives. Which is why it’s just whiny–thanks for providing an example. 🙂

You already know to save your soapbox crap for someone who cares. I don’t do emo teenage angst.

Femi says,
Outsiders may have questioned themselves and each other about us. Who is what? However the answers would be totally irrelevant because we know what we are, unambiguously. We have the same parents.

laromana says,
Thanks for your excellent post/pics and comments. As an Afrolatina born and raised in the U.S. (of Afrolatino immigrant parents), I have always found the ODR or “YOU ARE WHAT OTHERS THINK YOU LOOK LIKE” brands of racial classification to be EXTREMELY OBNOXIOUS/STUPID. At any given moment anyone can “guess” what they “think” someone’s race is and treat them accordingly, but this has NO BEARING on their ACTUAL RACIAL IDENTITY.

I wish people (of ALL RACES in America) could learn to RESPECT how each person CHOOSES to SELF IDENTIFY based on their family’s culture/racial makeup instead of trying to FORCE others into their “NARROW/INVENTED RACIAL CATEGORIES”.

“But if you look white and act white (“possess Euro-American cultural characteristics”) BUT told everyone you were black, what then? And would it make a difference if most of your friends were black?”

I think an olive-skinned person with European features claiming that they are black nowadays would largely be met with chuckles. There have been some stories posted on mixed websites recently about near-white mixed people who identify as black (in all likelihood a disappearing breed). Apparently these individuals have trouble convincing others (including whites) to take their identity seriously. Back when race was thought of as having a strong ideological component, somebody who doesn’t really look black claiming to be black was probably taken more seriously. But race is thought of now as being more about phenotype and culture, not so much ideology and social conflict. Thank goodness for that! The racially ambiguous cannot flourish in a social environment with a strong, antagonistic racial division.

But if you look white and act white (“possess Euro-American cultural characteristics”) BUT told everyone you were black, what then?”

According to your definition, Abagond, and I think it’s a good definition, she’s still white (and not black), because white people still consider her to be white. We will publicly go along with her self-definition, while privately thinking “whatever, you’re really white, stop trying to wash your hands of your white privilege”. Not entirely fair, perhaps, but that’s white folks for you.

I can understand why she might want to identify as black given that her father was apparently considered black and the racism she finds in white circles hurts her directly.

Black people won “The Beauty & Culture War” a long time ago, but we don’t know it yet. White people are becoming less european and more african, but they’re afraid to acknowledge it. Jennifer Lopez and Kim Kardashian are examples of what most whitewomen on the planet will look like in the future, but it’s still a tough pill to swallow for many whites. The blonde-haired, blue-eyed whitewoman is a dying breed, and everybody knows it. The continued browning of whitewomen in america, makes it much easier for Adrian Piper and other biracial women to bestow blackness upon themselves, regardless of complexion. Middle-Eastern, East-Indian, and Latin whitewomen have thrown a gigantic “monkey wrench” into how the world views race and beauty in this day and time. Blackwomen are the “Gold Standard” for all women on the planet, but, what makes a woman black? Women compete with each other for refined blackmen, which is why blackness or lack thereof matters so much!!!

“Learn to read. That’s what I just said, that it makes no sense for someone to worry about those “mean Black people” outing them as Black if they have no immediate Black identifiers, either in phenotype or close relatives. Which is why it’s just whiny–thanks for providing an example.”

You seem to have strongly internalized this one drop rule concept, but keep in mind most of mainstream America doesn’t buy into it, not anymore at least.

My basic argument is that whitish mixed race people should not have to deal with constant pronouncements from insecure losers who don’t know them (and don’t look like them) that they are “passing” or “living a lie” for just being who they are. That is oppressive in itself.

White people are becoming less european and more african, but they’re afraid to acknowledge it. Jennifer Lopez and Kim Kardashian are examples of what most whitewomen on the planet will look like in the future, but it’s still a tough pill to swallow for many whites.

I’d say at least 85% of the White women (certainly most of the women under the age of 40..) in the US would be very happy if they woke and found themselves to be dead ringers for Kim Kardashian (who is 98% European fwiw ( according to a genetic test her full sister took..) she’s just a European variant.. as there are variants among Blacks and Asians..) or Jennifer Lopez. Also probably 90% of the White men would be happier if their spouses or girlfriends looked like those two.

“Some will say that if you can pass for white you have no right to call yourself black: white-skinned blacks do not suffer enough. But if that is true, then you have nothing to lose by publicly calling yourself black. So why not try it and see? You could even take advantage of affirmative action! So go ahead! Do it! What is holding you back?”

Wow. This is a rather bleak view of what it means to be black. It should be noted that no dignified person would define themselves in terms of “suffering” or stigma.

And for someone to think so little of their “race” that they would seek to impose membership in it on individuals who share little in common with it with respect to ancestry and experience is particularly pathetic.

Tyrone says,
Jennifer Lopez and Kim Kardashian are examples of what most whitewomen on the planet will look like in the future, but it’s still a tough pill to swallow for many whites.

laromana says,
I have a major problem with J. Lo being classified as a “white” Latina when she has the same mixed African/Spanish/Native mix as other Latinos who are classified as Afrolatinos. If she has Afrolatino ancestry/cutural background, she’s NOT a “white” Latina.

I didn’t get to read all the comments just a few. But I find this pretty interesting. I’m a person who doesn’t believe in race but ethnic variations and different phenotypes and culture. I do think times are changing a bit, at least where I live. I find more whites considering me mix. With blacks they consider me only as black. I’m sure many would say i have a phenotype of a stereotypical “black look” but some *which surprises me* because some people do not see it and are surprised that i am, even when they see my hair natural. I guess it just depends on a persons stereotype or assumption about a person. But my point is I think the way we see this thing called race is very slowly changing.

I thought the video was interesting, and Piper made some valuable comments. But I’m black and I don’t think she looks white. She resembles any number of biracial people I’ve known my entire life.

But maybe with her background, people who have zip exposure to blacks think she looks white.

I started Googling her today because the NYTimes had an article on a Yale art exhibition on the works of black artists. Piper objected to being classified that way (which I think is valid) and refused to grant rights for the publication of visual representations of her works in the catalogue.

[…] to ignore, or simply don't know about their ancestry. Check out the work of Adrian Piper – summary overview here – videos are on youtube and make though provoking viewing. Fortunately in the UK we're a bit more […]

Piper does not read as white to me. She does indeed look ambiguous, and I can see some people would classify her as white, but I really can’t imagine she is invariably seen as white and doesn’t experience racism based on her appearance.

I do wonder whether subconsciously she thinks that telling every one she is seen as white, even while being upfront about her heritage, will actually secure her a white status. I do think people are influenced by the idea that a person is routinely seen as white, even if they know that person has non European ancestry and doesn’t really look what is commonly understood to be white. I think many people will think to themselves, well that person doesn’t look too white to me, but every one else seems to think they do, so they must be white.

I think Kim Kardashian also plays this game. Of course she is not of African ancestry, but whether Armenians are seen as white or not is not clear under the current classification system. Kim herself does not look clearly white, neither does her sister Kourtney. They could both be seen as more Middle Eastern/South Asian looking.

Yet Kim comes out with statements about how she never had to think about racism until she had a mixed race daughter. This plants the idea in people’s heads that she was invariably seen as white before that. Yet google Kim Kardashian and whiteness and it’s clear to see many people never considered her white. If she wants to see blatant racism against her personally she can always log on to Stormfront and see that she was on the receiving end of racist abuse long before her daughter was born.

>>This plants the idea in people’s heads that she was invariably seen as white before that.<<

Sorry this should read 'This plants the idea in people’s heads that she has invariably only ever been seen as white'. Of course the birth of her daughter doesn't suddenly make her non-white, it's just that the question is, was she ever securely seen as white. I don't think she was.