Children lying = high brain function

Among some of the findings about children lying, the children who start lying earlier than others are smarter and have better theory of mind (the ability to cognitively put yourself in another's shoes):

Other research has shown that the children who lie have better “executive functioning skills” (an array of faculties that enable us to control our impulses and remain focused on a task) as well as a heightened ability to see the world through other people’s eyes, a crucial indicator of cognitive development known as “theory of mind.” (Tellingly, children with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, which is characterized by weaker executive functioning, and those with spectrum disorders such as autism, which are characterized by deficits in theory of mind, have trouble with lying.) Young liars are even more socially adept and well adjusted, according to recent studies of preschoolers.
***Training children in executive functioning and theory of mind using a variety of interactive games and role-playing exercises can turn truth-tellers into liars within weeks, Professor Lee has found. And teaching kids to lie improves their scores on tests of executive functioning and theory of mind. Lying, in other words, is good for your brain.

Of course we all know that sociopaths are clinically bad at affective empathy (the ability to feel another's feelings) but tend to be quite good at cognitive empathy or theory of mind, so perhaps these results should not be surprising.

But what about the fact that lying children (or anybody) is a little creepy and problematic? Again, there are some definite parallels to sociopaths:

For parents, the findings present something of a paradox. We want our children to be clever enough to lie but morally disinclined to do so. And there are times when a child’s safety depends on getting at the truth, as in criminal cases involving maltreatment or abuse. How can we get our children to be honest?In general, carrots work better than sticks. Harsh punishments like spanking do little to deter lying, research indicates, and if anything may be counterproductive. In one study, Professor Lee and the developmental psychologist Victoria Talwar compared the truth-telling behaviors of West African preschoolers from two schools, one that employed highly punitive measures such as corporal punishment to discipline students and another that favored more tempered methods like verbal reprimands and trips to the principal’s office. Students at the harsher school were not only more likely to lie but also far better at it.Witnessing others being praised for honesty, meanwhile, and nonpunitive appeals for the truth — for example, “If you tell the truth, I will be really pleased with you” — promotes honest behavior, Professors Lee and Talwar have found.***You can also simply pay kids to be honest. In research involving 5- and 6-year-olds, Professor Lee and his colleagues attached a financial incentive to telling the truth about a misdeed. Lying earned children $2, while confessing won them anywhere from nothing to $8. The research question was: How much does the truth cost? When honesty paid nothing, four out of five children lied. Curiously, that number barely budged when the payout was raised to $2.But when honesty was compensated at 1.5 times the value of lying — $3 rather than $2 — the scales tipped in favor of the truth. Honesty can be bought, in other words, but at a premium. The absolute dollar amount is irrelevant, Professor Lee has found. What matters is the relative value — the honesty-to-dishonesty exchange rate, so to speak.“Their decision to lie is very tactical,” Professor Lee said. “Children are thinking in terms of the ratio.” Smart kids, indeed.

97 comments:

All social animals are wired to take advantage where they can and to be very aware of others cheating.

Altruism is the mystery, not self-centred behaviour. Remember that evolution works through competition for copies of genes in the next generation.

Kin altruism obviously supports copies of genes in the next generation. Systems of reciprocal altruism likely emerged from environments with big families dominating - other individuals learnt to cooperate in order to gain improved control of resources. (There are probably other circumstances but that’s all I can currently recall.)

This is observed cross-species.

Morality is simply the particular norms around reciprocal altruism for a particular culture, but there will be patterns based on human psychology / biology.

Another interesting idea is that psychopaths have some capacity for primary emotions, but don’t seem to have the secondary emotions that develop later in childhood (including love and empathy.) I’m sure it’s not as simple as halted emotional development (what happens with fear? for example), just an interesting synchronicity.

“Children are thinking in terms of the ratio”

Yep, we all are, all the time and for all sorts of decisions. The brain is a statistical machine, always learning. What differs is our underlying value framework.

It’s worth noting that bonding allows us to invest in relationships with much longer periods over which we expect reciprocation. We don’t need to see an immediate benefit the way psychopaths do. But believe me that reciprocation / cost-benefit analysis is always happening.

This is one reason psychopaths can take advantage in the short term but relationships are difficult over the longer term. It’s also why neurotypicals get very angry: they finally become aware the costs have mostly been on their side and reciprocation won’t ever arrive. The failure is in prediction, actually, and that comes from lack of awareness.

In summary: - it’s all about copies of genes in the next generation- the mystery is cooperation and NOT selfishness - reciprocal altruism emerged as a successful strategy from competitive environments where kin altruism dominated- all behaviour is driven by subconscious cost-benefit models- neurotypicals are comfortable with much longer payback intervals than psychopaths (who need to see the benefit.)- a generalised reason non-psychopaths get cross with psychopaths is because they’ve not received the payback they were expecting in the longer term. Think about the sink costs! Ouch.- the solution is better understanding so appropriate investments of energy and resources can be made.

A very nice analysis as usual North. You did miss one thing though. Psychopaths like me have developed long term survival strategies too. They also work on cost/benefits and I have many long term relationships I have developed. I do enjoy making people dependent on me. Like at work I always make sure I am the best at many things, I make sure those things are the tasks everyone else HATES doing, or just the key people (Managers). It helps if those task are essential. Next step is to offer to take over the tasks that your boss hates. For example the business owner I work for has a problem with confrontation. I take this over for her so she does not have to give direct orders or take corrective action with her other subordinates. I reassure her that it is not a failing on her part just a happy little personality quirk, ie she is too nice, such a sweet person, best to let the psychopath deal with it. Today she wanted to get one of the others to do a task and was told nope (the lady is her best friend so she could not push her to do it without losing social cred) I socially engineered the reluctant lady into it in seconds and made her think it was her idea. I heaped positive feedback for doing my bidding on her and told her how awful the task I replaced her at was (dealing with the public, not hard to have horror stories). I have been doing this for the boss for so long now she has pretty much handed over dealing with all the stuff she hates to me. Psychopaths can be altruistic you see, IF we are those that understand the long game. My friends are somewhat dependent on me for things as is my husband. I do the dirty work for people.

Most of my freinds are Atypical. One of the services I offer to them is to take online psych tests so they can get jobs. I will also do resumes for them and coach them on how to get through the interviews. Another service I provide is English to English translation. This is where the freinds are having a hard time communicating with each other. We sit down and as each one talks I explain what they actually mean in terms the other will understand.I then mediate until we have a resolution to the problem. By making yourself indispensable a psychopath can in fact have long term relationships with people. I am an atypical psychopath though, I don't actually need a benefit from people. I like studying people so just being around them is enough to keep me amused.

So on the other post, one sociopath said they would make a good soldier, and another one said they wouldn't because they are too anti-authoritarian. I'm feelin puppy basket on bein anti-authoritarian although now that I'm the boss, I'm doing a little better psychologically. Less of a threat now of any buildings being burned down, or parading people's heads around on a stick.

Is that in, "hey fellow freaky peers", or are you trying to put everyone down here? Regardless, I had to look it up because I had never heard of them, but can always appreciate being introduced to murderers I've never heard of before.

Come on sweep, come back. I thought it was funny that a MRA was hangin out on this site. I think a feminist and an MRA can reconcile their differences long enough to hang out on a psychopathic website. Maybe we can write a sentimental, inspirational article about it, and bring the two movements together. Paul Elam can feature a segment about it on his youtube channel. We might even be able to make a documentary about it like the Red Pill.

I must say, I'm extremely impressed with your word play abilities, I thought the way you changed SociopathWorld to psychopathworld was particularly clever.I won't lie, I had to look up MRA, and, whilst there are dozens of meanings, I'm going to assume you're referring to the Metal Roof Alliance.Though I'm a bit perplexed by its relevance to the feminist fool.I am also far too hungover to give a shit about Paul Elam, but thanks for thinking of me.I like the comment below this, about lying little fucks and how intelligent sociopaths respect the blunt truth.But again, too hungover to really care.North is making my head hurt.

yea i dont really know what the difference is supposedly suppose to be between a sociopath and a psychopath. They're used interchangeably, right or something? I dunno, what's the latest theories on these labels? Everyone seems to have their own definition of what it all means. Reading the stuff on this site, I've come to realize I don't know anything about sociopathy....well a little more now I guess. So yea, it's jus me being my little irreverent self

Well, uh, if you read what I said, the theories are always changing, and plus people have kind of taken the information that has come out of the field of psychology, and done whatever they wanted with it, so no, really I don't know the answers, and like I said, people come up with their own definitions of this stuff. Plus I don't work in the field of mental health. Very different field from my own. I'm happier where I'm at. That over there looks like a mess to me.

Fair enough. I can't remember too well at the moment (see:hungover), but didn't ME say in her book that although she was a diagnosed psychopath, that she goes by sociopath because of the social connotations and ramifications of the word psychopath?So if the two terms have become interchangeable, it makes a mockery of all the categorising and analyses.Look online, you'll find a myriad of comparison charts, 'how to tell the difference' guidelines...a psychopath does 'this', whereas a sociopath does 'this'...then scroll and you'll find a complete contradiction. So it's conjecture really.I think it's kinda like you lots American constitution, it started out as one thing, only to get amended. And amended. And the amendments amended.A load of shit basically.I'd hate to work in a field.

In my impartial view... Anscombe's hand reached the ball first, and the ball was on the ground. Whether that constitutes a grounding and therefore a try is the question for me. I imagine the precedent in this regard is that it could have been ruled a try, but I can see why it wasn't.

Laws, right. All down to interpretation and what you can get away with.

Yeah, makes no odds whining about it I know, just found it a bit twatish that they brung a TMO in from Maoriland, just to get the decision wrong.His fucking decision being that THEY grounded the ball. It is what it is though.

Lying children most likely have lying parents. Liars who just lie because they can are probably not socios. I think intelligent socios respect the truth, and like telling others blunt facts (but they of course can ignore truth & "live a lie" without being bothered morally by it). To lie just to deceive is NOT rational behaviour.

I´m thinking about a ranting celeb figure with strong psychopathic personality who gets annoyed when others (ordinary people) are deluded or lost in wishful thinking. He LOVES to serve people "raw truth" on a plate. The guy seems to hate their self-deception just as much when they tell him yarns..

Wait! Wait...was it the promise of violent public sex that turned into a discreet hand job behind the wheelie bins behind McDonald's? No? Jeez...OK ok, was it uh, adorning you in black leathers and studs with restraints on your wrists and ankles linked up and hobbled you through the local shopping centre whilst screaming obscenities at you through a loud speaker, in German...only for it to be mitigated to a mild wolf whistle from afar and a sly knowing wink?No? Damn I'm struggling now. Alright ok, last guess I promise.Did he promise to passionately grab you, stopping you in your tracks in a highly populated place, spin you to face him, deliver a visious slap across your face that would echo for all to hear, before yanking you in for a movie style kiss...only to get to said public place and forget it all in favour of making 'wanker' hand gestures behind the security guards back in BHS? (You guys have BritishHomeStores over y here right? Cool).

...someone looking to make a show of a calculated risk maybe.apologies for being or sounding presumptuous, not my intent at all, but from an outside perspective, you sound bored North.And, I dunno...trying to tell yourself you're not?

Fuck off anon, if you're gonna take the piss, try and be a bit inventive with it you insipid twat.When you lose your virginity pup, come back and regale us with your stories.

I think you're right about the show of calculated risk. He knows I like some exhibitionist excitement.

I was actually very excited yesterday because I hadn't seen him for nearly two weeks. We were both a bit desperate I guess. So it was more for practical reasons than expressly for excitement. We used to do the car thing all the time, but usually in more secluded environs.

I'm not bored of him, but don't get enough of him. That part is very true. He knows that fine line, for sure.

ok let's change the subject. The images in my head aren't very sexy. What did you guys think of the Heather Mack story? This is a psychopathic website so let's keep it psychopathic. North's fuck story was pretty horrific, but not the type of horror I was hoping to find on this site.

Yea, that's how it works with personality disorders. Everyone's vying for power. That's usually why I don't hang out with personality disorders. Usually it's miserable. Anyway, that's not what was going on. I was just being honest about your story. It was just too disgusting, and had to be stopped. Like I guess if two college age kids are talking about bein naughty it's ok because in a way you're kind of living vicariously through them, but you....you're not college age and neither is your boyfriend. The images were starting to become unbearable. I'm sorry. That's probably a little too honest, but that's what's fun about sites like this is you get to be honest. Anyway, really the point of that comment was to change the subject to violence. It's one of the main reasons why I visit sites like this. Violent behavior is pretty interesting.

No no, you clearly misunderstood me. I love studying power. I fall in to the amygdala-challenged group too. Is what it is. Yea, but your fuck story was too much. I was imagining gray pube hairs...nah it was too much.

I'm sorry but I don't watch the news or follow it in any medium, so my opinion on her plight is a bit redundant really.But I had a quick skim through the story and just seems like another money orientated crime of passion with a bit of quick thinking blame gaming. I don't think she's psychopathic though, but I haven't read it tidy.

Ha...I do like the way you're niggling North, but I fail to see where in her vague story she gives any unbearable images to create such proposed disgust in you?Maybe when you grow up a bit, you'll appreciate teenage endeavours in an adult way, where you actually know what you're doing a bit.North's hit the nail on the head though, it's a bit blatant your need for, what, validation? that your comments are foul and badass.

Grey* pubes? That's just vile.Happy now?

*it's grey you fucktard. If you lot are going to share our language, have the decency not to bastardise it. That's bastardise with an s, nt a fucking z.

I guess I just don't imagine north being attractive. That's where it's coming from. I imagine her bf being probly around 50. I mean, if you're going to discuss sexuality, at least do it with some class.

She was incredibly violent, and targeted her mom her whole life. Apparently the cops were called to the home something like 50 times throughout her childhood and teens. She set up her bf to make it look like he committed the crime alone. It was committed in Bali. Her and her mom traveled around the world frequently. Good place to do it since she only has to serve ten years. Not too bad. She did all of these crazy things, and yet she has a lot of upper middle class mannerisms which you wouldn't expect.

If she had any brains she would have done it on a cruise while out past the legal marker and dumped the body overboard. I mean they traveled a lot so that would have been easy for her. Bodies disappear from cruise ships all the time.

Hi anon! Sweetheart, most men who can actually grow hair on their balls are into shaving now a days. You know for obvious reasons for the grown folks. Sounds like you have a crush on this girl. Do you hate your mother as well? Fantasize killing her perhaps so you feel maybe you and her will have a bond? Maybe you should write her and find out. Hi North, Swop.

Swop's pretty good at talking shit. Bella, you kinda suck at it. I just joined some "talking shit" groups on the net. I can appreciate someone who can talk some good shit, and is good at roasting people. I'm not sure if those were real questions or not uh but no I don't want to kill my mom. I feel like I'd get put in the corner if I did. There aren't too many people in this world that scare me, but she still intimidates me. What personality disorder do you guys think Omarosa has? North, I hope I didn't make you cry. Actually I hope I did because that would be kinda funny, but since we're sharing space on the net at the moment, I'm hoping we can just move past what happened yesterday. Maybe Bella is right, and your bf shaves his balls lol. Do 50 year old dudes do that? I dunno. Seriously, that was like not even appropriate bringing up North's bf's balls Bella. I was cool with wound rape, but this is just going too far.

Have you guys ever read any of Robert Greene's books? What do you guys think about his advice on not outshining the master? At first I thought he was being a little dramatic, but now that I'm the boss, and anyone who outdoes me is toast. lol he was right.

So, follow up. I think he really liked the car experience. He was referring to it all night. He seems so innocent and child-like in his enjoyment of things. You know and then he has the sharp side that tries to keep me off balance. But I see through this process and look for more reliable signals of his position. Dichotomous creature, he always fascinates me.

North, does your 50 year old bf shave his balls? That's a serious question. I wanna know if old dudes do that too. I won't ask about you. Honestly, I've heard too much already. I really appreciated though that you completely ignored me just now, and didn't bother to respond to my comments. If you guys really want me to go away, you can utilize a behavior analytic approach, and place my behavior on extinction. This means that the behavior no longer comes in to contact with reinforcement, and will eventually stop. So just ignore my comments, and maybe I'll go away :D

North, just my two pence, but just because he's not communicating with you, doesn't mean you have to be reciprocal. I mean, by all means it's up to you, but you're already guessing at his motives and desires, before you go into territory unfamiliar, I'd say have a chat to him.If some bird I'd been knocking about pulled a pair of handcuffs on me, she'd be limping for months.when he's 'encouraging' this, is he looking to you to take the lead for it all? or just to make the first move so to speak, then taking charge of the situation once you've, uh, opened yourself to him?Like Bella says below, sounds like he has and is looking to explore submissive tendencies, which could be fun if it suits you both.Or maybe he's just lazy.Again, I'd say have a chat.

North, maybe he has some submissive tendencies or thinks he does and wants to explore. That can be fun. J is a masochist but is dominant. However, I have been wanting to dominate him. Probably this power struggle between us two we are dealing with. He won't budge on something I want and I refuse to follow his rules until that time. (I suck at being a sub lol) Swop, he put a contraption he made on my tits today. Steel that tightened around the base of each one and has they jiggled when he fucked me the steel cut into my tits....fucking heaven. That man is a fucking genius. I almost passed from the choking and he let up but I did cum awfully hard ;)

Could be on the money, Bella! If he won't budge, I won't budge until I see a compromise. He does like submissive fantasies - he wants to be "punished" while "secretly" enjoying the punishment. So maybe this is an extension.

Hmm, and makes sense since we can't go with his favoured option at the moment for medical reasons. I'm proud of him for showing restraint in this regard, it hasn't stopped him in the past.

Yep, I definitely like this fantasy better so I should take full advantage.

Sounds like a piece of wire Bell.But I'm glad it works for you.See, you don't need to pass out I guess, but you know what would drive me wild in that situation of yours? If I let go of your throat as you were bordering...as he did...but you grabbed my hand and squeezed it down tighter. Please don't take my use of personal references as any kind of come on or flirtation...I've seen your tits remember.Anonymous be careful what you wish for young one.

North...be careful, he may take a slap as a severely emasculating act.Women are for slapping, not men.Maybe try something a bit water testery? I dunno, go out somewhere and tell him that you've no underwear on, and that the thought of tieing him down and fucking him senseless is making you sopping.You can gauge his reaction a bit then.And if you see the reaction that encourages, then you're gonna have to accept that one day in the future, you're gonna have to fuck his old ass.

Maybe because it's late and I'm tired, ffs. So, I am not sure but not wire. It is about an inch thick of steel or metal, you can put screws in the end to tighten it in place. Bought from a hard ware store. You might know what it is, I do not.

Don't fret it kid, you had to crack at some point, no one has skin THAT thick.I've no idea, but I like creativeness, I'm forever walking around and looking for things I could use to inflict. People get too bogged down in hitting, there's a thousand ways to put someone through pulse racing, teeth clenching, borderline begging sensual pain. So it's good you've a dude who uses his mind a bit.You say he's masochistic and dominant? Good combo. Tried sticking a pair of nipple clamps on him proper tight, then grabbing the joining chain with your teeth and ripping them off as he cums?Just putting that out there like.He gets to fuck you in a dominant style, through the pain of the clamps, only to finish with a blast of white hot pain jolted through him.

so you guys didn't implement my extinction procedure? Why not? I'm not really handling it well to be honest : / It's pretty sick, I ain't gonna lie. Bella aint't hot still, and north is like some old reception or whatever.....yea, no...this is sick. Like, maybe if you guys were just kinda subtle and suggestive you know lolol. its how it has to be once people hit 30. Maybe you guys didn't get the memo.

i didnt know sociopathworld had turned in to middle aged porn...its gross...like im cool with murders, and destruction in all its various forms, and hell, rape, i dont give a fuck. I make a terrible feminist anyway. I'm from vegas so there's no hope for me, but damn sociopathworld.........middle aged porn?!?!?!?!

Cheers Swop, reminded me that he doesn’t do super well with surprises. He really didn’t like a little bite that I gave him. I think he prefers to keep well away from violence for whatever reason so anything like that would definitely require discussion first.

Reading you makes me wonder if he wasn’t testing the waters with me to see whether things can progress in that direction.

:D Might work up to something like that. He is incredibly good at turning the tables psychologically when I have him physically pinned: I always expect him to play to the script but he likes to find ways to surprise me. His mind is just so quick with it. It stretches me but doesn’t daunt me, if that makes sense. I feel like physically forcing is kinda cheating but it’s worth experimenting with. Will keep you posted.

I believe it requires ignoring the person you wish to make extinct swop, but I'm not sure how that works. Perhaps by ignoring me my feelings will get hurt and I'll go away. Or maybe I'm like Santa Claus and by not believing in me I'll fade away.

Urgh, don't bother Alci, you don't have the linguistic skills or the intellect to fuck with me. Your attempts here to be blasé and cool are as pitiful as your pathetic "come back and talk to me Bella" shit, and even your one time puppet cut her ties to your one dimensional waste of breath.I have to keep up with the blog yes...the wife and I shed too many tears in laughter over it not to.And I wouldn't want to be one of the fools who has to buy the erotica by missing it on the blog.Sorry, but the book.

Blase and cool. That's so sweet that you think I try to be anything. I fear the one dimensional person you think I am is just giving me too much credit. I am zero dimensional. Just nothing, not even a puppet.

It's nice to have no puppets. Strings are so boring to pull. Much too complex for a wee simpleton as myself. I'll just have to fetch my own water this week.

It makes me happy that the wife and yourself can enjoy the blog together. I bet many a persona has struggled through it. And all the anger and railing against it is really entertaining. But this new reeled in swop is not the bird I came to fly with.

Whenever I come back and scroll through old comments here it warms my heart to see you mention me now and again. It's like you can't let me go darling.

It's been nice this time not seeing the comment section weeks after it's posted. It meant I got to stop in and give you a hug.

I'll see your cute self in a few days, maybe a week. The world doesn't stop because I want to stay and play.

I may be in the UK in a few months. Perhaps we should say hello. You might find it surprising and hilarious.

Can unemotional socio people be psychic? Can their "gift" appear like a strange real life movie-scene, played by unknown forces? (example: somebody is wondering about supposedly lost/delayed ordered shoes in the mail, and suddenly a stranger wearing the same shoes appear in a public place, looking at the socio-psychic. And the next day the shoes arrive in the mail.)

We can easily trick people into thinking we are psychic. It takes being able to read people, knowing social theory, being able to understand and make deductions about them and if you are really sneaky finding stuff out about them from spying methods (cruising thier social media or asking other people about them). The last method works best if you delay using the info for a week or two so everyone forgets you know it. Most people are sadly predictable and if you are good at reading body language and micro expressions you can easily convince people you have super powers. (Yes I do it for fun) I have most people I know convinced I can control the weather using the simple method of always checking the forecast and knowing a good bit of meteorology. Since most people don't/can't do this simple task telling them that you are going to make it rain or stop raining at certain time and being more accurate than the weather forecasters works a treat.

Have anyone explored if psychic sociopaths exist? The condition somehow seems rather "far away" from the stereotype psychic (hyper-emotional people swimming in feelings)? But are the vivid emotions really the psychic core? If unknown forces are eager to tell a person things, will not "the message" just be tailor-made to fit the receiver?

Well that's very nice of you to say. However, I do have standards, and because of my past horrific and fearful SW experiences [of boredom], have become a virulent anti-neurotypical snob. Has worked out fantastically well. Dissing 99% of the population works a treat; and nowadays all my friends are like a walking advert for DSM5. What a soothing relief.8-)

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Of course, my default is still to intuitively analyze every outcome and situation and achieve the best result, but it's more interesting to let people remain a variable and go in their own direction, rather than nudging them in the direction I prefer. Interacting with people WITHOUT trying to control them is a new paradigm for me.