This is absolutely fascinating. I don't play them, so I had no idea MMORPG's could be so Machiavellian and politics-ridden. I kind of just assumed they were about guilds facing off in straightforward fights. And the brainpower and planning that seems to have gone into this - wow. I am now tempted to buy Eve, but I have a horrible feeling my work and personal life would suffer hugely...

I've done the online RPG thing since LORD on dial-ups in the early 90's, and I played around with World of Warcraft a little, but I'd never played Eve before.

After reading all that, I both never want to play it and am glad it exists, because it seems to be an outlet for some truly awful and pathetic people mentioned in that article who take pleasure in being horrible to each other, and I'm glad they have a place to do relatively harmless acts of self-satisfying cruelty to one another instead of raping schoolchildren or whatever. Christ. Do you have the forum thread where they gloat about kicking an old lady down a flight of stairs too?

MMORPGs are about enjoying a fantasy world and living out a lot of activities you can't, or shouldn't, do in the real world. I understand slaying dragons, having rivalries, and killing each other in a virtual world to let off steam, feel confident, earn some kind of moral personal victory, etc. But if you're devoting huge amounts of your time to virtually fucking over complete strangers- if that's your sense of power and victory in your imaginary kingdom- there is a serious problem with your real life that a game is not going to fix.posted by XQUZYPHYR at 11:04 AM on May 14, 2006

But if you're devoting huge amounts of your time to virtually fucking over complete strangers- if that's your sense of power and victory in your imaginary kingdom- there is a serious problem with your real life that a game is not going to fix.

Maybe they just like the strategic challenges.posted by kenko at 11:14 AM on May 14, 2006

But if you're devoting huge amounts of your time to virtually fucking over complete strangers- if that's your sense of power and victory in your imaginary kingdom- there is a serious problem with your real life that a game is not going to fix.

Oh balderdash. It's designed to be a competitive environment - there's no more psychological dysfunction in evidence than in people who enjoy playing Monopoly. This sounds like a creative, rather amusing use of a MMO gaming environment. Mo' power to them.posted by RokkitNite at 11:17 AM on May 14, 2006

The problem with EVE is that it's basically a massive Excel spreadsheet and IRC client with some nice 3D graphics tacked on. The positive side of this is that there is almost unlimited depth to it - I can't think of another game that has a realistic, functioning, real-world style economy the way EVE does.

The other problem with EVE is that skilling up takes so damned long - to really participate in PvP in WOW one can spend a month or two hitting sixty and be seriously competitive with any other player in the game. In EVE everyone advances at a steady rate regardless of whether they are logged into the game or not - which means senior players are functionally invincible to newcomers and this fact will *NEVER CHANGE* because you cannot significantly advance your learning rate beyond a skilled player.

The OpenOffice spreadsheets I have for my EVE characters are absolutely insane, and I'm spending the next month learning mining skills so that I can grind through mining with sufficient efficiency to afford the BEST implants for learning for a different character, who will sit in a space station for nine months *real time* skilling up.

Add to this the fact that all combat in EVE is capital ship combat - there are no dogfights of any kind, period, and there is almost nil manual control - and that there are major usability issues with the game (someone else can post about the aggravation of instabookmarks and the like).

The game has a lot going for it in that character advancement continues regardless of whether you're logged on or not, so that people with a job or a social life can still play, and the average EVE player tends to run a lot more intelligent than other MMOs because of the sheer IQ required to make headway in the world. I'm just not sure that these things are worth the payoff.

What the GHSC did was sort of cruel, but the really awesome kind of cruel that makes a game - it's the ability to create genuine life-affirmation in a virtual world that seperates the classics from the competently implemented, and EVE succeeds on those terms at least.posted by Ryvar at 11:20 AM on May 14, 2006

It's designed to be a competitive environment

I don't see how that conflicts with my statement. Again: if you need to engross yourself in a fantasy world where you can spend ten months planning deceptive and cruel ways to destroy other virtual people, you have an issue in meatspace to address. I am unconvinced you do that out of the ether because you "just like the strategic challenges." That's like saying Dahmer was just really hungry.posted by XQUZYPHYR at 11:20 AM on May 14, 2006 [1 favorite]

I heard about this when it happened. I was fucking thrilled. It made me want to get into EVE but, of course, I'm so cheap that I didn't. Thanks for making this extensive, well-thought-out post about it.posted by BlackLeotardFront at 11:22 AM on May 14, 2006

I am now tempted to buy Eve, but I have a horrible feeling my work and personal life would suffer hugely...

Nah. Once you've done the prequisite thirty hours or so of reading the forums, looking through the thousands of ingame items, tallying up skills you'll use, figuring out your ship configs, and associated number crunching the game becomes as much of a timesink as you care to make it or not. Big initial investment but after that you can take or leave the game for months with little impact.posted by Ryvar at 11:23 AM on May 14, 2006

this is a phenomenal post. I don't play eve, because from what I understand it takes WAY too long to get to the point where this kind of fun can happen, but this kind of behavior is exactly where EVE really excels.

most mmos simply do not create adequate opportunity for people to be every bit the dick they would in real life. WoW has had, for some time now, an infamous problem with shitheel players ninja looting corpses, and other issues that aren't based on in-game behavior so much as they're based on taking advantage of the mechanics of the game. in other words, the problems that arise from player behavior in that game are based on playing the game, not playing the character. EVE created a universe where you could very simply be a bad character and play that badness to your heart's content, complete with all the rewards and consequences that one would expect in fully realized universe. i am continually tempted to start playing the game for that reason alone, if nothing else. i can't think of another online game that really gives that freedom to that extent. (although the old single player ultima games used to allow you to do that, but not online.)

people who think this is a bannable offense simply don't understand the value of a system that open-ended and flexible.posted by shmegegge at 11:34 AM on May 14, 2006

"...ransacked the corporation's hangers..."

God damn it how many times have I told you NO WIRE HANGERS!posted by mr_crash_davis at 11:39 AM on May 14, 2006

Shmegegge: exactly. CCP is pretty upfront about the fact that they hold scamming via social engineering as a perfectly valid form of gameplay. Adds a genuine paranoia to the game you don't find elsewhere.posted by Ryvar at 11:41 AM on May 14, 2006

XQUZYPHYR - I dunno, I could see myslef getting into something like that, and maybe considering prople critical of it as having an underdeveloped sense of fun.posted by Artw at 11:51 AM on May 14, 2006

@XQ: Whether it's wrong depends on expectations, I think. You don't call someone who wins thousands of dollars in poker a dangerous sociopath, do you (necessarily? right?)? If a game is set up as a venue for aggression and trickery, perfectly normal people can excel in it at aggression and trickery (think of your favorite, twisted psych experiment). And attacking the perpetrators' "need" to spend ten months at it just seems like a cheap shot from here.posted by grobstein at 11:56 AM on May 14, 2006

The problem here is that in an online world like this, it is too easy to be a spy. You don't have to act it 24hrs a day, and even worse, spies can use external means of communication to make contact with others in their organization. Pretty damn cool though. Makes me want to read up on the game more.

One question I have is: Where outside means of communication (e.g. email, IM, VOIP...) used to gain trust of the 'victims'? If so I think the 'victims' have a real complaint, and the people who are in charge should do something about it. If not, they should stop their whining. Great post.posted by batou_ at 12:00 PM on May 14, 2006

HELLO, IT'S A GAME.

If this wasn't part of the game, then the programmers wouldn't have programmed the ability to steal stuff. It's simple to limit people's items to their own possession, so obviously the authors wanted that sort of thing to go on.

That sounds like part of the fun. It's a made-up fantasy world where you can do that sort of thing.posted by delmoi at 12:20 PM on May 14, 2006

But if you're devoting huge amounts of your time to virtually fucking over complete strangers- if that's your sense of power and victory in your imaginary kingdom- there is a serious problem with your real life that a game is not going to fix.

Man, what ever. It's not any less fucked up then wanting to rip peoples heads off in mortal combat.posted by delmoi at 12:24 PM on May 14, 2006

Seems much hasn't changed since the early to mid 1990's when I used to play in a MUD called 'Highlands'. You joined a Scottish Clan and participated in clan vs clan pwars. There was lots of backstabbing, double agents and assassinations there too...and all in text!!posted by UseyurBrain at 12:43 PM on May 14, 2006

Ryvar: "someone else can post about the aggravation of instabookmarks"

I have to admit, I only played Eve for about 4 weeks before school started up again and I stopped having time for it, but I enjoyed the insta-bookmark thing.

Some quick background: Solar systems in Eve are connected by jumpgates. To get to a jumpgate, you can select it in a list of destinations in the system and say "warp to here." The thing is, your ship will never warp you to exactly the point you select, it's always some fixed distance away and then you have to approach with sub-light engines. If you're running from someone, this part is scary as shit. You're watching the distance to target meter tick down, waiting until you get close enough to the gate to jump away. Someone can either come through the gate and blow you away, or someone trying to catch you can warp in and lock down your engines before you get there.

To avoid these risks (and to make the process of multi-system jumping faster in ships that take forever to approach the gate) players will place bookmarks past the jump gate, and warp to those bookmarks. The game won't let them get to exactly those points either, but if you place those points beyond the jump gate, you can jump within activation range of the gate. The problem is making these bookmarks (colloquially: instas) takes a while, and you have to use them manually instead of relying on your autopilot to handle the route for you.

They're aggravating as hell, but it's a nice effort/reward thing. I had a set of instas for my main hauling/mining routes near my corp's HQ that made it really fast to move around if I wanted to use them. If I didn't care about time, I could just use the auto-pilot. It gave me a little of a home-field advantage when I was operating near our base, since I certainly couldn't maintain them for large sections of the galaxy. But maybe I'm missing some higher level issue with them? Like I said, I'm no eve expert.posted by heresiarch at 12:47 PM on May 14, 2006

"Where outside means of communication (e.g. email, IM, VOIP...) used to gain trust of the 'victims'? If so I think the 'victims' have a real complaint, and the people who are in charge should do something about it. If not, they should stop their whining."

I don't know for sure, but I would not be at all surprised if they had talked on AIM or teamspeak or VOIP or something. These games are not separated from "reality" in any sense. Castronova (author of the Synthetic Worlds book linked in the FPP) talks about the boundary between these worlds and the real world is being porous. It's common that people bring friends from outside the world into it, and that people they meet inside the world become acquaintances outside as well. At the very least, Corps at war need to be able to talk to their members outside the game to rally them for in-game action.

There's also the implication in various articles about this heist that the CEO and her treacherous right hand man were romantically involved. It might have just been role playing, but it just as well might have been genuine.posted by heresiarch at 12:55 PM on May 14, 2006

EVE is awesome. I play far too much of it.posted by Slothrup at 1:34 PM on May 14, 2006

I really, really hope the CEO and the treacherous lieutenant were, indeed, romantically involved. That's some good space opera right there. Maybe Cherryh, or perhaps Donaldson circa the Gap cycle.posted by Justinian at 1:40 PM on May 14, 2006

If means outside the game were used in order to pull off this assassination/heist, you can no longer say "it's only a game" or "its part of the game". Because it no longer is - someone has been manipulated in the real world, by a real world counterpart.

And if that is the case I think it should be addressed. I wonder, if communications were indeed used outside the game, the 'victims' may have a court case. The possessions that were stolen have actual monetary value, no?? Any Mefi lawyers out there that would take the case?posted by batou_ at 1:52 PM on May 14, 2006

The possessions that were stolen have actual monetary value, no??

Part of the reason that gaming companies take such a hard line against eBay and such is to prevent their ingame items from having any sort of officially recognized realworld value. CCP tends to be better than most about this, too (which is impressive coming from such a small company). If any developer/publisher were to openly permit trading, then presumably they could be held liable for servers crashing at an inopportune moment such as just prior to an uberitem being picked up.

So, possessions have monetary value in the sense that you could sell them on eBay, yes (and the values are non-trivial), but they have no monetary value in the sense that if CCP found out about the sale, they'd immediately delete the account and any such possessions.

Any Mefi lawyers out there that would take the case?

I'd hope not, because it would pretty much be the end of the genre overnight.posted by Ryvar at 2:21 PM on May 14, 2006

Sorry - a successful decision for the plaintiffs would pretty much be . . .posted by Ryvar at 2:23 PM on May 14, 2006

If means outside the game were used in order to pull off this assassination/heist, you can no longer say "it's only a game" or "its part of the game". Because it no longer is - someone has been manipulated in the real world, by a real world counterpart.

But what if that's part of the game's rules?

I would assume that "means outside the game interface" were used to pull off the scam, but I didn't read that much.posted by mrgrimm at 2:25 PM on May 14, 2006

I don't think it would be the death of the genre, I just think it means that all people need to avoid manipulating people in the real world to achieve ends in the game.posted by batou_ at 2:27 PM on May 14, 2006

Ya know, I just sat down to start a play-by-email game of Diplomacy, and I have to say it's not terribly different from this, only without the annoying skillbuilding tedium. All the backstabbing and extended alliance-betrayal cycles are the same as they were in games decades ago.posted by mkultra at 2:47 PM on May 14, 2006

You can't have it that cleanly, though - either game items have legally recognized real-world value or they do not, plain and simple. If they do then that fact will be used in endless lawsuits targetting players and developers alike. Moreover, external communications is a very fuzzy line to walk because nearly every single guild (corporation in Eve) uses IM, email, and message boards in simple day-to-day communication. What about IM clients like XFire that use DirectX overlays to provide a chat interface that appears OVER your game client while playing?

I understand the ideal you're aiming for, but the things that need to be clear-cut for it to be plausible are very fuzzy in the real world, and the things it requires to be context-specific would not be.posted by Ryvar at 2:49 PM on May 14, 2006

I love this post. That being said, I am incredibly bored by the grind that you have to go through to do anything useful in EVE, so I never really play now. I did try.

Anything that encourages this kind of complex machiavellian backstabbing in a game environment is definitely something worth paying attention to, though.

It's interesting how stuff like this tends to happen more now that there are more 'adult', longterm games like EVE.posted by blacklite at 3:23 PM on May 14, 2006

Also, I really love the name Guiding Hand Social Club. The 21st century amuses the hell out of me.posted by blacklite at 3:23 PM on May 14, 2006

Ya know, I just sat down to start a play-by-email game of Diplomacy, and I have to say it's not terribly different from this, only without the annoying skillbuilding tedium. All the backstabbing and extended alliance-betrayal cycles are the same as they were in games decades ago.

But you know, you don't need to have skills in the game in order to engage in corporation-building or even backstabbing. You just need to be able to deal with politics and logistics and team-building and morale. No skill points required for that.posted by Slothrup at 3:30 PM on May 14, 2006

blacklite: "Also, I really love the name Guiding Hand Social Club. The 21st century amuses the hell out of me."

Yeah, that really is a great name, and disposed me to like whatever it is that they do before I really found out.posted by kenko at 4:01 PM on May 14, 2006

Again: if you need to engross yourself in a fantasy world where you can spend ten months planning deceptive and cruel ways to destroy other virtual people, you have an issue in meatspace to address.

I don't know. I don't play MMORPGs, but once in a while I do love to hop on a Rocket Arena 3 server on a Friday night after a few beers, and gib the living shit out of anyone slower or drunker than me (of which there are few, sadly). Does this indicate that I have 'issues in meatspace', and if so, are they qualitatively or quantitatively different than the ones that you accuse these EVE players of having?posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:48 PM on May 14, 2006

Ryvar: You can't have it that cleanly, though - either game items have legally recognized real-world value or they do not, plain and simple. If they do then that fact will be used in endless lawsuits targetting players and developers alike.

I see the point here, but

Moreover, external communications is a very fuzzy line to walk...

So, nothing is black and white. A line can be drawn. I'm not saying this is what happened here, but I place communicating outside the game with personal email accounts on the manipulation side of the line.posted by batou_ at 5:54 PM on May 14, 2006

Again: if you need to engross yourself in a fantasy world where you can spend ten months planning deceptive and cruel ways to destroy other virtual people, you have an issue in meatspace to address.

I'm with stavrosthewonderchicken here. This same reasoning would suggest that I have problems because I like to play violent games like BF or GTA.posted by batou_ at 6:02 PM on May 14, 2006

Reading about a story like this affirms my interest in the roleplaying in scenario paintball. Only, you have to be really convincing, because it only takes them a second to shoot you... :-)posted by bugmuncher at 6:40 PM on May 14, 2006

Wow. For $20,000 real contract-killers ought to get in on this. It does seem though that the market won't stand for CEO-assassinations for long. Looks like there's already a huge surge in private security firms and bounty-hunters and counter-assassins can't be far behind.

Again: if you need to engross yourself in a fantasy world where you can spend ten months planning deceptive and cruel ways to destroy other virtual people, you have an issue in meatspace to address.

Eh, this is bullshit. Some people can just appreciate a good story. Real world ethics don't apply here because it isn't the real world. This is roleplay and it has its own rules. Get a (fantasy) life. The extent of this roleplay effort is perhaps even justified by its financial reward.

Personally, I think the most amazing aspect of this isn't the extent of the deception (multi-year feuds aren't that uncommon in other role-play environments) but its economic impact. I suppose the lawyers and insurance companies won't be far behind.posted by nixerman at 6:41 PM on May 14, 2006

So, nothing is black and white. A line can be drawn. I'm not saying this is what happened here, but I place communicating outside the game with personal email accounts on the manipulation side of the line.

No, I gotta disagree with that one. I played a game of Empires in Arms a few years ago that lasted about 2 1/2 months (meeting once a week for 5 hours or so). That game involved much duplicity and intrigue, and while a significant portion of it took place during "game time" most of it involved cajoling and manipulating folks during those 6 days of down time between each round. You know, just casually chatting on the phone about something totally unrelated and the game happens to come up *wink* and you share a bit of yours plans, which you probably shouldn't reveal *wink* and suggest a complementary course of action your buddy should take so you can work together *wink*. Then on game day they happen to go first, and then *bam* time for the double cross.

A lot of the politics and bluffing and misleading took place out of game, and that was probably 75% of the fun in my opinion.

So yeah, I don't see why going from "game time" into "phonetime" is some vital Rubicon that shant be crossed lest you become a bad person.posted by Jezztek at 9:26 PM on May 14, 2006

I've got to agree with Jezztek et al. that it's not useful to draw a strict line between in-game and out-of-game activities that pertain to the game; in WoW for example, my server is surrounded by a network of out-of-game forums, guild websites, a server-specific IRC channel, and a server AIM contact list... and every major guild and alot of the minor ones use Ventrilo or Teamspeak to such a degree that it's often mandatory for membership.

Drama started on the server forum oftentime escalates into in-game PvP actions... sort of in the spirit of the espionage described in the articles, my guild maintains a "spy" account on a rival guild's private website, and recently used it to discover the identity of one of our members who was leaking our painstakingly developed AQ40 strategies to them. This led to an (in-game) expulsion of the member from our guild.posted by Spacelegoman at 12:03 AM on May 15, 2006

Everyone is male.

If you do not know where they sleep they are not your friend.posted by prak at 1:12 AM on May 15, 2006

Everyone is male what? Do you not know any female players of multiplayer online games?posted by Justinian at 1:16 AM on May 15, 2006

I had no idea we had so many MeFi folks playing Eve! It's a really rich and intricate game that admits a lot of fascinating stories. I have a couple of blog posts that talk more about what makes it so interesting.

One thing that's missing in the writing about Eve is that while it all sounds dastardly and awful, in fact most people are having a hell of a lot of fun. I think the folks scammed by the Guiding Hand probably hated it, but in general even when you lose a major battle you can pick yourself up and have fun again soon. The fact that the risks are significant make the good times all the sweeter.

Ryvar, I don't know where you're fighting, but out in 0.0 where I am most combat is not capital ship combat. Not even battleships. It's all about fast moving fleets of interceptors and assault ships. Lots of pilot skill involved. There's still a lot of flaws in the combat. It's too hard to actually find someone. But I'm finding I'm having to learn a lot (myself, not my skillpoints) to fight well.posted by Nelson at 10:08 AM on May 15, 2006

"There are less female players than female toons, of course."

I think a friend of mine put it best: if you're going to spend hundreds of hours looking at your character's ass, it might as well be something you'd prefer looking at.

Nelson: I wasn't referring to capital ships per the game's definition so much as I was saying there's no dogfighting of any kind - every single ship in the game that can be 'piloted' is a capital ship by the standards of other games.posted by Ryvar at 12:35 PM on May 15, 2006

Hmm, some of you have a poor theory on how cyberspace and meatspace are separated.

If you are roleplaying, then yes your character, it's dialogue and actions are virtually separated from the real world. Anything your character does in the game is legal and morally separate from meatspace.

In EVE you are not roleplaying. Sure, a small percentage do engage in roleplaying at times (or some rp enthusiasts nearly full time) but this is the exception and it's blindingly obvious how separate from the rest of the players these few are. For the most part you are trying to enjoy yourself with your friends and corpmates and working on some type of project or activity. You talk about the game, about international issues or whatever. You whine about CCP and can looters. You are being yourself. You treat your corp members like friends, and those who would cheat you like enemies. Everyone who plays realizes that they are in a game, but they are not playing a character. They are playing the game as themselves. Your real personality dictates what you do.

Those pirates who take joy from destroying thousands of innocent players indeed have "issues" in meatspace. Those who would loot a corp, pod someone who is in a rare battleship and brag about it are indeed bitter and hateful individuals.

Think about it, there are many types of games with different levels of freedom. Battlefield let's you shoot things, and that's about it. Certainly no one can claim you are a murderous lunatic if you virtually kill people in Battlefield, that's what it's designed for. But let's say you join a clan, talk with them over teamspeak for a few months. Eventually you make a match squad, and over the months your team goes all the way to the finals. During the final game you kill your teammates repeatedly. Is it only a game then? Nope, never was.

How about eve? Was it designed to be a massive ocean of backstabbers? No, it's only turned into that since those are the types of people that play eve. The worst aspects of their personalities are free to reign havoc without consequence. Eve was designed to be a free persistent galaxy. The freedom to do WHATEVER you want is the big feature.

Talking over evemail, chat, IM, IRC or forums is a social contract. Unless it's clear to both sides that you are roleplaying, by lying you are breaking this social contract. Eve lets you do this because of it's grand experiment. It's a worthy experiment that has turned the mirror on it's populace and shows them who they truly are.posted by parallax7d at 4:00 PM on May 15, 2006

Wow, I was completely on the other side of this issue but parallax has almost convinced me. Nice post, parallax.posted by Justinian at 4:29 PM on May 15, 2006

Justinian:

I started and stopped a comment along the same lines. I was on the fence, but parallax7d has pulled me strongly over to the "they're jerks" side. It doesn't make the whole caper less cool, but it changes it to the "super-involved bank heist" end of the spectrum, where it's coolness doesn't mean that the people doing it were any less jerks.posted by Bugbread at 5:12 PM on May 15, 2006

("I started and stopped a comment along the same lines" = the lines of saying "parallax has almost convinced me", not "I started and stopped a comment that said what parallax said")posted by Bugbread at 5:13 PM on May 15, 2006

I can see the charm in having a character who is a psychopath a liar and a theif if you are stealing from imaginary people, but as soon as you are attacking real people and costing them their valuable time, you are a douche.

That being said, I still play EVE because the rest of the game is so awsome.posted by Megafly at 6:07 PM on May 15, 2006

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