Actually Crymson is right. I remember reading that he attributed his attitude change to his wife and the situation he was in (no one wanted to sign him). When Chelios convinced the Wings to give Cleary a shot in training camp he was already determined to work his ass off. No doubt the Wings locker room was a stabilizing influence, though.

"I came back from Mora in Sweden during the lockout and the Coyotes let me know that the last year of my contract with them had run out," Cleary remembered. "I was at kind of a crossroads in my life. I was out of a job ... and I didn't know if that meant hockey was over or not." In June 2004, Dan married his sweetheart, Jelena, who quickly became his positive influence on life. He was out of work, with the responsibility of providing for a new wife, and a lot was going on in his mind.

"I began to realize what people say when their back is against the wall with no place to turn to," Cleary said. "I had no idea what might happen. I had thoughts of what I might do if hockey was over. But Jelena told me to put my most positive foot forward. Give it my best."

It also didn't hurt that while working out in California with defensemen Mathieu Schneider and Chris Chelios in the summer of 2005, those two put in a good word with him Red Wings and he got a tryout. But there were no promises. Cleary would have to earn a contract.

"I remember that I was just trying to fit in," he recalled. "I started out on the fourth line with Johan Franzen and Mikael Samuelsson. We were all just role players then. Heck, we're all still role players. But there's nothing holding any of us back ... if we can prove we can play a better role.

"The way it works here is that good players get better and great players get greater. That's what happens when you're surrounded by good players. It just brings out the best in you and everyone blends right in. And there's more to your role. You don't have to worry about scoring ... just play your game. If you play a good two-way game, the offense will come. You just have to prepare to work hard to fit in here. I'm not kidding when I say coming to Detroit is the best second chance I could have gotten."

When Babcock cut Cleary from Canada's world junior team in 1997, it marked the third straight time Cleary had been let go.

Looking back on it now, Cleary said Babcock "made the right decision." But Cleary didn't think so then.

"Of course, that third year, I definitely thought I should have made it," he said.

Babcock said: "He got carried away is what happened. But it just didn't happen - off-ice commitment, work ethic, pace of game."

It wasn't the only painful lesson.

In January 1998, after playing six games for the Blackhawks, the team that drafted him, he was sent to Belleville, where he was arrested for drinking and driving. He was 19.

"I had money and a car, and I was living life to the fullest, but not the smartest," Cleary said. "I was out with the guys, having a good time after a game - it's almost as if you think you're invincible, I guess. It's sad to say that you need something like that to happen to you, to kind of wake you up, but that's what happened to me. I got pulled over. Nothing good could come out of that but to learn. And I believe these experiences have truly made me a better person."

Cleary was then traded to Edmonton, an experience he didn't handle well at first, either, he said.

"When I got drafted to the NHL, I wasn't ready to play," Cleary said. "I just didn't feel like I belonged, at 18 years old. I wasn't physically mature, and I didn't have it mentally. Once I got traded to Edmonton, being traded gets to you. I had never been traded before. There were a lot of things that begin to humble you."

Cleary played four seasons with the Oilers, then hooked on with Phoenix for a year. During the lockout season of 2004-05, he played for Mora IK in the Swedish Elite League, tallying 37 points in 47 games.

By then, Cleary had found the person who has made the biggest difference in his life.

"Changed me," Cleary said.

Dan and Jelena Cleary were married June 22, 2004. They met in 1999, at a restaurant in Hamilton, Ontario, but the courtship took awhile to get started. The first time Cleary asked for her phone number, Jelena declined. Then he asked her out again. Almost a year later, she finally said, "Yes." They've been together ever since.

Jelena Cleary said she had heard stories about Cleary's past, but they didn't represent the man she married.

"I hear the stories and say, ‘Wow, you've come a long way,' " Jelena Cleary said. "He's the most organized human being in my entire life. He has these to-do lists every day that he scratches off. He has worked so hard to get to where he is right now."

Cleary's story begins in Kingston, Ont. where, as a 15-year-old, he piled up over 80 points in Ontario junior A hockey. The following year, he registered 81 points as an OHL rookie.

Already, talk was he would shatter records set by Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux.

The No.1 pick in the 1997 NHL draft was a lock.

By Year 3 of major junior hockey, following a 115-point campaign, red flags started emerging. Cleary had been cut from the 1996 Canadian team for the world juniors, due in part because he was only 17. But in 1997, Mike Babcock - who would go on to coach the Red Wings - cut Cleary again.

Same thing happened in 1998, when Real Paiement - who would be the one and only coach of the St. John's Fog Devils - axed Cleary from the national junior team.

"There was such a number of talented players," Paiement says, "word was you take no chances. And Danny's reputation, well, you were taking a chance.

"Word was he was a party guy. He'd turn it on and turn it off. He wasn't a bad kid or anything, or selfish. But in a short tournament, there was no time to discipline guys or send them home.

"There was no time to change guys."

By 1997, Cleary's NHL Draft stock had plummeted. Joe Thornton was the top pick that year and Cleary had to wait until the 13th name was called in Pittsburgh, by the Chicago Blackhawks.

The next season, he bounced between Chicago, of the old International league, and junior hockey. Then Chicago shipped him to Edmonton in a seven-player deal.

Cleary played with the Oilers for the better part of the next four seasons until he signed as a free agent with the Phoenix Coyotes.

It was the best and worst times. In the desert, he and wife Jelana settled, but it wasn't long.

Following the 2003-04 season, a year in which he managed six goals in 68 games, he was let go by the Coyotes.

Adding more sting was the fact Cleary's former agent, Mike Barnett, who had by now assumed control of the Coyotes as GM, was the man who had given Cleary his walking papers.

"If you look at his history," Barnett said by phone from Phoenix, "he had been an elite player at a very early age. He got by on talent alone.

"But talent alone was not sufficient at the NHL level. Players of lesser talent were getting by on superior work ethic."

"We ratified the CBA late July," Cleary said, "and I'm waiting for my agent to let me know if I'm going to be qualified (offered a contract) by Phoenix.

"And when I didn't get qualified, I was so upset. Here I am, I have a wife to support now so things are different. I was training in California and, in fact, I was training harder than ever. Those few weeks in August created a different life for me."

Thus the beginning of the maturation process of Dan Cleary.

In the summer of 2004, Cleary began, at the urgency of new agent, J.P. Barry, and former Edmonton teammate and best friend, Shawn Horcoff, working out with fitness guru T.R. Goodman in Venice Beach, Calif.

Goodman has been widely credited for extending the career of Chris Chelios, a 46-year-old Red Wings geezer in comparison to younger foes, but nonetheless a ripped and fit player others could look admire.

"Physically," said Chelios, a teammate of Cleary's in Chicago when the latter was a rookie, "I don't want to say he wasn't working, but it just took him a while to learn he had to apply himself conditionally."

This began the maturation process of Dan Cleary.

Maturity, a word Cleary frequently uses these days.

"I would have to go to that summer," he says of the defining moment of his career. "Honestly, I've really matured mentally and physically. When you train harder and commit yourself to training all year round, I'm real fit and physically mentally. It's been my secret."

Through July and August, Goodman would challenge Cleary.

"Why aren't you a good player?" he ask. "Why aren't you scoring goals?"

Cleary laboured through the workouts. Chelios, the circuit king - in training speak - would finish his circuit of weights and exercises while Cleary had another two or three to go.

That summer, following his release from the Coyotes, Barry searched for a team Cleary could latch on to. The Toronto Maple Leafs showed a lot of interest, but so did the Detroit Red Wings.

Jelena Cleary, a Toronto native, prodded her husband to sign with the Leafs.

But Dan had a gut feeling.

As is often the case in hockey, Barry had a connection with the Wings. Niklas Kronwall was in the organization and his partner, Pat Brisson, represented former Wing Sergei Fedorov.

"We were prepared," Holland said, "to give him a training camp invite, and we were prepared to give him a legitimate chance to earn a spot on the team. But that was it.

"There was nothing to lose on our part. No money, nothing. But everything to gain."

Most people who had Cleary's ear thought he was nuts. The Detroit Red Wings. A perennial Stanley Cup contender. Toronto? Well, they were the Leafs.

A no-brainer.

"Sometimes you get these gut feelings - everybody gets them - and I just had this feeling about Detroit. I knew I was going to go there and make it. I really believed I would.

"I know that Babs (Babcock) knew I had no chance of making this team. I was at a point where I didn't have a contract, didn't have a team to go to, but I still believed in myself. And I had a good wife who believed in me even more."

"Mike Babcock's recollection of Dan Cleary," Holland said, "was of a guy who wasn't in very good shape at the world junior camp. You know, great hands, great head for the game, but not physically fit.

"But I talked to (former Wing) Matt Schneider who worked out all summer with Cleary at Goodman's camp and Schneider gave him a high recommendation. He said Cleary deserved another opportunity, that he was committed, that he worked hard in the off-season.

"I remember hearing about this phenom coming out of the Maritimes, before Sid Crosby," the GM said after Detroit's practice Sunday. "Big points in junior A as a 15-year-old, goes into the OHL and leads the league in scoring for a while as a 16-year-old. So the expectations are this guy's going to the NHL and will be a tremendous player. He's a high draft pick, but then he starts bouncing around.

"We liked skill and one of the reasons I was excited about Danny coming to training camp was his upside. He's got hands, hockey sense, he can skate.

"He didn't play too well in training camp, but all of a sudden he picked it up in the pre-season. He won Babs over.

"We got him a two-way contract and the arrangement was if things didn't work out, he wanted the opportunity to go to Europe."

That first season in Detroit, Cleary managed but three goals in 77 games. But his play away from the puck impressed the coach.

Last year, he notched 20 goals.

"I can't say enough with what he s done and as player," said Detroit veteran Kris Draper, "and we look at that and admire him.

"He came here with the attitude, 'Just give me a chance.' He earned his chance and he's really taken advantage of it."

Just to prove 2006-07 was no fluke, Cleary responded with a 20-goal, 42-point campaign this year.

It was a season marred by injury, when a broken jaw sidelined him for 19 games. At the time of the mishap, an errant puck to the face, Cleary had all of his 20 goals in 57 games.

But Cleary's presence in a Red Wings dressing room, adorned with photos of past Detroit greats like Howe and Lindsay and Delvecchio and, most recently, Yzerman, can be measured more than just goals and assists.

He's a player Babcock uses in all situations, from the power play to the penalty kill. No matter if Detroit is up by a goal or trailing by one, Cleary is often used in the last minute or two.

Some players score 40 goals, but sit in the dying minutes with the game on the line.

"Defence is what earned me a job in Detroit my first year," he said. "I'm certainly glad I did it because now I get to play in all situations and be counted on both offensively and defensively.

"The defensive side of things, that's something I pride myself on."

Heading into the final against the Penguins, Cleary was fourth-most in minutes played among Detroit forwards, behind Zetterberg, Datsyuk and Johan Franzen.

"He leads by example," said Chelios. "He doesn't say too much in the room. But you see that. There are guys who are rah-rah, but don't back it up. There are guys who don't say 'boo' and work their asses off. He's in that second category.

"Guys notice that. Take a guy like (15-year NHL veteran) Dallas Drake and what he brings to the table. There's not a player in this room who doesn't notice what those players do during the course of a game.

"It's all about work. Getting in there, getting the nose dirty."

"I definitely took the game serious," Cleary says, alluding to his younger days, "but I think I might have taken it for granted sometimes. I came to realize it's a privilege to play in this league.

"Maturity is the big reason and a little work ethic applied."

Each of the Red Wings, from Chelios to Draper to Darren McCarty, another reclamation Detroit project, laud Cleary for his leadership.

Not the rah-rah stuff Chelios talks about, but the things behind the scenes.

Cleary has become somewhat of a media darling in the Motor City, a player reporters look to deliver insightful answers, while displaying patience to even the most inane questions.

And that role - albeit as innocuous as it may be in the broader picture - hasn't gone unnoticed. Earlier this season, Cleary was rewarded with a contract extension which will pay him $14 million through 2012-2013.

A big hike from the $675,000 he pocketed this season.

Enough to buy him a tidy home he and Jelena are looking to buy in California.

"He's got his head straightened out," says Don Cherry. " He always had the talent. When he was in Belleville, holy smokes, he was going to be the No. 1 of number ones.

"Hockey players are pretty level headed. I'm not just saying that because they're hockey players, but a lot of them come from small towns. Danny, I would have to say, was an exception. And that's what was so sad about it. Especially coming from Newfoundland where everybody was so proud of him.

"You can screw up in football, you can screw up 20 times in baseball and they'll accept you back, but not in hockey. He's an exception. He screwed up and I really have to admire him for straightening it out.

"You don't usually get second chances in hockey. Not too many get them, and not too many make the most of them. Danny, boy, he made the most of it."

Actually Crymson is right. I remember reading that he attributed his attitude change to his wife and the situation he was in (no one wanted to sign him). When Chelios convinced the Wings to give Cleary a shot in training camp he was already determined to work his ass off. No doubt the Wings locker room was a stabilizing influence, though.

With the bitching people do about Hudler I can't imagine what they'd say about Zherdev. He's softer than Hudler despite being a big guy (I can't blame a 5'9 guy for being a bit soft but when you're 6'2 200lb there's zero excuse). And he's mind-numbingly inconsistent and lazy. There's a reason why he's bounced around looking for a home.

Franzen is 6'3" 220Lbs. soft AND made of glass, will make 5.2M this season and has never hit 60 points in his career. How many players do we have that willingly go to the hard ice to score. The list is short but we have 4 forwards that have never hit 60 points and make more than 2M, plus Burt at almost 2M that hasn't been a 60 point player for several years.

Franzen is 6'3" 220Lbs. soft AND made of glass, will make 5.2M this season and has never hit 60 points in his career. How many players do we have that willingly go to the hard ice to score. The list is short but we have 4 forwards that have never hit 60 points and make more than 2M, plus Burt at almost 2M that hasn't been a 60 point player for several years.

Franzen's cap hit is 3.95 million. What he actually makes this year is irrelevant. He also scored 59pts (and 31 goals) in 51 playoff games over the course of the 3 seasons prior to this one. It's hard to hold his s***ty performance against him too much this year since he was too injured to skate at times. Scoring 31 goals over 51 games would average out to 50 goals in an 82 game season. So basically, come playoff time Franzen's the equivalent of a 50 goal scorer. I'm not sure what your problem with him is. We all wish he'd be more physical out there but it's not like he isn't pulling his weight in other areas...

Franzen's cap hit is 3.95 million. What he actually makes this year is irrelevant. He also scored 59pts (and 31 goals) in 51 playoff games over the course of the 3 seasons prior to this one. It's hard to hold his s***ty performance against him too much this year since he was too injured to skate at times. Scoring 31 goals over 51 games would average out to 50 goals in an 82 game season. So basically, come playoff time Franzen's the equivalent of a 50 goal scorer. I'm not sure what your problem with him is. We all wish he'd be more physical out there but it's not like he isn't pulling his weight in other areas...

I guess there are always excuses and numbers games for players that are liked, and no excuses for ones that are not liked. How can you be sure that a player wouldn't "pull his weight in other areas" if you don't try them? The player we are discussing is LESS than 2M and he wouldn't be the first player banished to the minors if it didn't workout.

That's a few great articles Red Wings Addict, I haven't read them in years, but it doesn't change the fact that Cleary credits much of his success today to guys like Chelios and Schneider...
I'm not saying that's the only reason he made the team but he has said it has a huge part to do with it...

Anyway, bottom line is none of you guys know what would happen if a guy like Zherdev played here, I just don't see the problem with signing a guy with his skill set to a one year contract. If it works out he would be a HUGE addition, if he doesn't, we're out 1.5-2 mil for one season...........

By the way, don't even try a comparison between Zherdev and Hudler they are completely different.... And if there is one person here that wouldn't give up Hudler at 2.875 and take on Zherdev at 1.8..... you're insane.... lay down the crack....

That's a few great articles Red Wings Addict, I haven't read them in years, but it doesn't change the fact that Cleary credits much of his success today to guys like Chelios and Schneider... I'm not saying that's the only reason he made the team but he has said it has a huge part to do with it...

He has said it was helpful that Schneider put in the good word that got him a tryout. Nowhere has he said anything in public about Schneider and Chelios inspiring him to work hard. What got Schneider to put in a good word for Cleary was the fact that the latter did work hard. And even if you do actually have friends who know him, and even if he does attribute some of his success to Chelios and Schneider, they're not in the locker room anymore.

What I'm trying to say is that your use of Cleary as an example isn't nearly as valid as you're putting it out to be. Too, even amongst players who have turned their careers around in their late 20s, Cleary is something of an extreme example.

To change the subject (and I refer to your words toward me earlier in this thread), you'll probably have a more enjoyable experience here if you discontinue your habit of losing your temper when others disagree with you.

He has said it was helpful that Schneider put in the good word that got him a tryout. Nowhere has he said anything in public about Schneider and Chelios inspiring him to work hard. What got Schneider to put in a good word for Cleary was the fact that the latter did work hard. And even if you do actually have friends who know him, and even if he does attribute some of his success to Chelios and Schneider, they're not in the locker room anymore.

What I'm trying to say is that your use of Cleary as an example isn't nearly as valid as you're putting it out to be. Too, even amongst players who have turned their careers around in their late 20s, Cleary is something of an extreme example.

To change the subject (and I refer to your words toward me earlier in this thread), you'll probably have a more enjoyable experience here if you discontinue your habit of losing your temper when others disagree with you.

No, you're right they are not in the locker room anymore but there are still some great role models in the Red Wings locker room that can mold this kid into an unbelievable player, both on and off the ice, Cleary being one of them. I think the reason for his arrogant attitude is due to the fact that pretty much everywhere he has played throughout his career he has been top of his team in skill level, I think watching guys like Datsyuk and Zetterberg day in and day out would change that pretty quickly.

Either way you want to look at it, you cannot deny this guys skill level, and like I've said time after time, I see absolutely no harm what so ever in signing him to a one year contract at under 2mil... Anyway if you disagree, fair enough, let's just agree to disagree, but there is no way you can say that signing him would not work out, because no one knows that for sure until it actually happened...

As for me "losing my temper"... I'm not losing my temper, I just can't stand when people try to present their opinions as fact. You tend to think what you say is the end all be all, and that irritates the hell out of me...

A lot of people on here tend to attack other people for their opinion or ideas and it's ridiculous... probably the worst forum I've seen online for that sh!t...

No, you're right they are not in the locker room anymore but there are still some great role models in the Red Wings locker room that can mold this kid into an unbelievable player, both on and off the ice, Cleary being one of them. I think the reason for his arrogant attitude is due to the fact that pretty much everywhere he has played throughout his career he has been top of his team in skill level, I think watching guys like Datsyuk and Zetterberg day in and day out would change that pretty quickly.

Either way you want to look at it, you cannot deny this guys skill level, and like I've said time after time, I see absolutely no harm what so ever in signing him to a one year contract at under 2mil... Anyway if you disagree, fair enough, let's just agree to disagree, but there is no way you can say that signing him would not work out, because no one knows that for sure until it actually happened...

Holland does not take chances in this regard. Zherdev is a highly-skilled player who has shown repeatedly that he has a poor attitude and lacks maturity. Signing Zherdev would mean introducing this attitude into the locker room. Whereas players like Cleary entered the team after already having reformed themselves, and whereas players like Lang and Hudler are positive presences in the locker room even if they were/are lazy at times on the ice, Zherdev has long been declared an abrasive presence behind the scenes as well as a poor worker on the ice.

There's a big difference.

As for me "losing my temper"... I'm not losing my temper, I just can't stand when people try to present their opinions as fact. You tend to think what you say is the end all be all, and that irritates the hell out of me...

What I said in this event was fact, as Dan Cleary has stated it in public.

I did some digging for those of you who were asking for evidence of Zherdev's poor attitude and difficulties in the locker room. This article documents the difficulties the Blue Jackets had with him. This piece (amongst many others) documents the some of the issues the Flyers faced with him; by all indications, he hasn't changed much since his days with the Jackets. It also makes the great point that if Laviolette, probably the only coach equal to Babcock in willingness to take his players to task, wasn't able to shape Zherdev into a responsible player and a responsible teammate, then it's unlikely anyone will be able to.

zherdev- if he is super cheap give it a year see how he pans out. i dont think the wings can turn every lump of coal into a diamond but i also believe they have a special way of lighting a fire under the ass of players who have gained a bad rep when it comes to attitude and work ethic. it really is kind of an honor for lack of a better term to play for the wings, a perennial cup contender. this i feel makes some players realize the chance they were given and they come around.

emery- always liked him, he is injury prone but i feel if we can keep his games to a decent number he can really be a solid #2. i am confident he is the type of guy that would embrace the chance to play in detroit and clean up his act and get his attitude and work ethic in line. between him and conklin thats a tough one maybe conks gets the edge for having played in our system before. i like them both over ozzie i think, its hard to say it i am a big fan but i think ozzies years are behind him and his groin is going to blow out every year if he continues to play.

zherdev- if he is super cheap give it a year see how he pans out. i dont think the wings can turn every lump of coal into a diamond but i also believe they have a special way of lighting a fire under the ass of players who have gained a bad rep when it comes to attitude and work ethic. it really is kind of an honor for lack of a better term to play for the wings, a perennial cup contender. this i feel makes some players realize the chance they were given and they come around.

Hitchcock, Tortorella and Laviolette were unable to change him. Those three are taskmasters and do not tolerate laziness. If they were unsuccessful, he's probably not going to be changed. I don't think Zherdev cares about being on a contender. He joined a Philly team last season that had come within two games of winning a Cup the year before, and he was as lazy and unmotivated as ever.

I think people vastly overestimate the ability and inclination of the Wings to reform lazy players who have bad attitudes. I would like to hear from you some examples of those whom you feel the Wings have done this with, as I don't remember any in the recent past; indeed, Holland tends to just not sign such players. As noted earlier, Cleary's change in attitude and work ethic occurred before he joined the team, so it could be argued (validly) that he is not a good example.

Finally, note that though Zherdev's contract last season was for only one year at a reasonable rate and there were numerous teams in need of scoring, he cleared waivers. It is almost unheard-of for a player with a significant amount of skill to clear waivers entirely, especially when that player has a very low cap hit and no more years left on his contract. It speaks volumes about his poor attitude and lack of work ethic that nobody was willing to take a chance on him for even the 2-3 months remaining in the season.

emery- always liked him, he is injury prone but i feel if we can keep his games to a decent number he can really be a solid #2. i am confident he is the type of guy that would embrace the chance to play in detroit and clean up his act and get his attitude and work ethic in line. between him and conklin thats a tough one maybe conks gets the edge for having played in our system before. i like them both over ozzie i think, its hard to say it i am a big fan but i think ozzies years are behind him and his groin is going to blow out every year if he continues to play.

Emery has skill, but his health is too much of a question mark. This probably accounts for much of why he currently lacks a job despite having played very well in the playoffs for the Ducks.

Emery has health issues so does Osgood and most of the older goaltenders that would take a #2 spot.. if any of them didnt have any worries of injury then they probably wouldnt be free agents waiting to hear from a team to fill a back up role. how many free agent goalies got signed that were not expected to be a number one?

back to zherdev. has he played for a legit contenders? not really, yeah he was in new york and philly but his ice time dropped and was put in the role of a chump on those teams. what im saying if a team makes him happy he might work a little harder if he thinks he has a good chance of winning and really what does hudler do that he doesnt?

bertuzzi,cleary- questionable attitudes and work ethic came to detroit and stepped it up
eaves, miller- both maybe not as questionable but showed that they were kinda on the outs or about to get lost in the sea of nhl turned to ahl lifers
hasek- was lazy he came to the wings and knew he was in a great situation to make a run at the cup
or how about every draper maltby helm type playeer that probably would be nowhere near what they are now had they not played in our system.
playing in detroit is a privilege if they dont see something in you or potential to make a change into something you wont be here long. players know this and it makes them work harder.

should i go on or do you know understand what it means when a historic team that is pretty much the favorite to win 8 of 10 games and make a long run in the playoffs for many years to come can change the attitude of a player. well try to put it this way. you sit and eat s***ty cake every day crymson you begin to hate it and you dont want your s*** cake anymore. you start off by showing up late to eat said s*** cake not finishing it all giving it away etc. now out of the blue youre given a cake that taste great and you realize what you had what you lost and what you have now. im sure you can relate. you tasted that moist almost too tasty to be true cake and even you would get off your ass and work to make sure you never got the s*** cake again.

its not fail proof and its not going to work every time but its worth a shot. wearing the winged wheel can do mysterious things for has beens and should have beens and never weres.

Emery has health issues so does Osgood and most of the older goaltenders that would take a #2 spot.. if any of them didnt have any worries of injury then they probably wouldnt be free agents waiting to hear from a team to fill a back up role. how many free agent goalies got signed that were not expected to be a number one?

Emery suffered a hip injury so severe that he nearly won the Masterton for returning to the ice. No other goalie on the market is even nearly as much at risk for injury as he is. As for why some goalies don't have contracts, it's presumably because almost every team has a backup goalie already.

back to zherdev. has he played for a legit contenders? not really, yeah he was in new york and philly but his ice time dropped and was put in the role of a chump on those teams. what im saying if a team makes him happy he might work a little harder if he thinks he has a good chance of winning and really what does hudler do that he doesnt?

Hudler does not have a bad attitude, puts forth effort, and is liked in the locker room. He's not a prima-donna, and he listens to the coach. Those are basic traits shared by the average hockey player, and they are traits that Zherdev does not possess.

Zherdev has most certainly played for contenders. Philly was absolutely a contender. So was New York. Both made the playoffs in the years he played for them, and both made it to the second round. Zherdev was initially given a decent amount of ice time by both teams. In both cases, his ice time dropped because he played terribly and did not meet the expectations of his coaches.

bertuzzi,cleary- questionable attitudes and work ethic came to detroit and stepped it up

As noted, Cleary's attitude changed before he came to Detroit. There are numerous articles, which can be found earlier in this thread, in which he notes this. Bertuzzi never had issues with work ethic or attitude. He was always willing to stick up for his teammates; he was always in good shape, his immense strength being an asset to his play; and he played with an edge. He's in the twilight of his career, so he especially wants to win.

eaves, miller- both maybe not as questionable but showed that they were kinda on the outs or about to get lost in the sea of nhl turned to ahl lifers

Both are naturally hard workers who had earlier had difficulty in finding a niche with other teams. They fit well into Detroit's system. Work ethic and attitude were never a problem for either of them.

hasek- was lazy he came to the wings and knew he was in a great situation to make a run at the cup

Hasek was never lazy. He was possibly the best goaltender of the past eight years when he came to the Wings. He asked to be traded because he wanted to win the Cup before he retired and did not feel that he had that chance with the Sabres. Hasek was always a consummate athlete and a compulsive trainer.

or how about every draper maltby helm type playeer that probably would be nowhere near what they are now had they not played in our system.

This isn't what we're talking about. I asked for examples of players whom the Wings had reformed from lazy, selfish and irresponsible to responsible, hard-working and possessed of a team-player attitude.

playing in detroit is a privilege if they dont see something in you or potential to make a change into something you wont be here long. players know this and it makes them work harder.

Hitchcock does not tolerate bad attitudes, sloppy play or laziness. Tortorella does not tolerate bad attitudes, sloppy play or laziness. Laviolette certainly does not tolerate bad attitudes, sloppy play of laziness. Those three are famous for being taskmasters and for punishing those players who do not measure up to their expectation, just as Babcock is and just as Scotty Bowman was. The results of Zherdev's bad attitude, sloppiness and laziness were the exact same as they would be here: he was demoted, then benched, and, in Philadelphia, ultimately kicked off the team. He met the same fate on those teams as he would in Detroit under similar circumstances.

should i go on or do you know understand what it means when a historic team that is pretty much the favorite to win 8 of 10 games and make a long run in the playoffs for many years to come can change the attitude of a player.

This was not the case for the likes of Robert Lang and Jason Williams, amongst others. Some players just frankly don't care about working hard. They just want their money.

For the record, no team has ever won eight out of every ten games in an 82-game season. The closest were the '95-'96 Red Wings, who won .756% of their games. This was an NHL record, and it is not a feat that the Red Wings--or any other team--have been able to even nearly equal on a consistent basis, even with the post-lockout removal of ties from the record system.

well try to put it this way. you sit and eat s***ty cake every day crymson you begin to hate it and you dont want your s*** cake anymore. you start off by showing up late to eat said s*** cake not finishing it all giving it away etc. now out of the blue youre given a cake that taste great and you realize what you had what you lost and what you have now. im sure you can relate. you tasted that moist almost too tasty to be true cake and even you would get off your ass and work to make sure you never got the s*** cake again.

Zherdev has shown that his "cake" is getting paid.

its not fail proof and its not going to work every time but its worth a shot. wearing the winged wheel can do mysterious things for has beens and should have beens and never weres.

If it were worth a shot to any team in the league, Zherdev would have been picked up on waivers last season. As things stood, nobody general manager wanted Zherdev on his team.

LOL Crymson you are such a f*ckin clown... you think you know everything about everything and you definitely don't... I think it's pretty sad actually... you state every one of your opinions as fact, just because you say something doesn't make it true...

Let me tell ya somethin, your statement above is purely speculation just like everything else you are saying about Zherdev. However, what I said about Cleary and all the problems he had before he came to Detroit, and how he credits Chelios and a couple other guys on the team to turning his life around is fact. I live a half hour from his parents place (where he grew up) and my cousin is good buddies with him, grew up with him, through school, right through minor hockey, and still trains with him every summer. I've met Cleary several times and no, he didn't personally tell me all his personal sh!t but he's after telling my cousin many times, so what you're trying to say about him changing before he joined the team and it having nothing to do with the team is way off base. Stop trying to act like you know everything, and unless you have the facts shut the f*ck up...

Oh, and as for Zherdev not working out on this team... it is once again pure speculation... I'm not saying he would definitely work out play alongside Pav and Hank but I don't see the harm in signing a guy with his talent and potential to a one year contract at under $2mil...

You agree that I "think I know everything and I don't" when I quoted Cleary's own words on the matter? Interesting.

As for my speculation, predicting how any player will do on any team is just that: speculation. However, some speculation has enough evidence behind it to allow for an accurate prediction. The evidence in this event apparently provided every GM in the league with the means to make the prediction that Zherdev would not do well on their team, as when he was put on waivers, not a single one wanted him despite his low salary and the imminent end of his contract.

If you're going to declare that all speculation is equally invalid, then, for example, you'd better be willing to annul an enormous number of rulings made in every court in this nation by every judge and jury. In the absence of indisputable facts that prove guilt or innocence--which by no means happens in every trial--the ruling of the judge or jury is based on speculation drawn from the available evidence. Likewise, the decisions that GMs make on whom they choose to sign--i.e., whom they feel would be a good fit for the team--and whom they choose not to sign is based in significant part (with the other factors being cost, available cap space, considerations on the future, etc. etc.) on speculation on said players, drawn from their own evidence they've gathered on said players. Also likewise, any post made by any member of these forums on whether or not any player would be a good fit for the team is speculation. Why you think that the fact anyone's opinion is speculative makes it invalid is unclear to me.

Emery has health issues so does Osgood and most of the older goaltenders that would take a #2 spot.. if any of them didnt have any worries of injury then they probably wouldnt be free agents waiting to hear from a team to fill a back up role. how many free agent goalies got signed that were not expected to be a number one?

back to zherdev. has he played for a legit contenders? not really, yeah he was in new york and philly but his ice time dropped and was put in the role of a chump on those teams. what im saying if a team makes him happy he might work a little harder if he thinks he has a good chance of winning and really what does hudler do that he doesnt?

bertuzzi,cleary- questionable attitudes and work ethic came to detroit and stepped it upeaves, miller- both maybe not as questionable but showed that they were kinda on the outs or about to get lost in the sea of nhl turned to ahl lifershasek- was lazy he came to the wings and knew he was in a great situation to make a run at the cupor how about every draper maltby helm type playeer that probably would be nowhere near what they are now had they not played in our system.playing in detroit is a privilege if they dont see something in you or potential to make a change into something you wont be here long. players know this and it makes them work harder.

should i go on or do you know understand what it means when a historic team that is pretty much the favorite to win 8 of 10 games and make a long run in the playoffs for many years to come can change the attitude of a player. well try to put it this way. you sit and eat s***ty cake every day crymson you begin to hate it and you dont want your s*** cake anymore. you start off by showing up late to eat said s*** cake not finishing it all giving it away etc. now out of the blue youre given a cake that taste great and you realize what you had what you lost and what you have now. im sure you can relate. you tasted that moist almost too tasty to be true cake and even you would get off your ass and work to make sure you never got the s*** cake again.

its not fail proof and its not going to work every time but its worth a shot. wearing the winged wheel can do mysterious things for has beens and should have beens and never weres.

if zherdev could be had for cheap, is it worth the risk knowing that the red wings have been able to polish a few turds in their day (not all of them)
what hockey player wouldnt be excited about playing with datsyuk zetterberg franzen etc and try to prove people wrong and buckle down?
if the price is right try it for year. if its a bust throw him to grand rapids or else where. with the cap space take a chance maybe? he does have talent and skill could babcock death stare him into being a hard working team player?

if zherdev could be had for cheap, is it worth the risk knowing that the red wings have been able to polish a few turds in their day (not all of them) what hockey player wouldnt be excited about playing with datsyuk zetterberg franzen etc and try to prove people wrong and buckle down?if the price is right try it for year. if its a bust throw him to grand rapids or else where. with the cap space take a chance maybe? he does have talent and skill could babcock death stare him into being a hard working team player?

Because every single GM passed on him when he was put on waivers--something VERY unusual for a player capable of scoring--I've got to believe that they all thought the risk wasn't worth the potential reward. That speaks volumes about Zherdev.

I don't remember the last time a player with a lot of talent and only one year left on his contract cleared waivers near the end of a season.