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let's see, there has been an influx of players coming over from japan, do you think they do that for what? OH MONEY.
and players who have left the states to play in japan tend to come back.

so, that leaves us with where? oh the dominican. there's a ton of money to be made in baseball there. it's a POVERTY stricken country. there are players defecting from the country to come play ball in the united states.

cuba? yeah, castro is all for paying ball players incredible money to play.
where oh where will they go?

oh, the real job life. 8-5 monday thru friday.
yeah.

unless of course you are assuming that most players play for the love of the game, not the paycheck. and i hate to burst your bubble, but i'm thinking that's not the case.

i believe a lot of people feel this way out of principle. it took a lot for baseball to recover from 94, which it hasn't completely done. i don't think they've got that magic wand lying around again.

same feelings as TeamCasey

CBus baseball won't just "fold up and go away" as you say if a lot of fans quit going to games, talk about being ridiculous. What it WILL do is show baseball they can't take us for granted. They have plenty of money to quibble over.

As you say, it's a business, and in the business world you don't piss off your paying customers and expect them to come back.

WOY, every time I think I just cannot see things your way, you come up with another GEM.....LOL...thanks!

Cbus, your post almost seems like a dare.

Well, I can tell you this, I grew up on TV and movies. I was a HUGE fan. Then, SAG decided over a several year period to go on strike a few times, because the millionaires were being mistreated.

Well, I don't pay for movie or TV and haven't missed it one bit.

Many people in the world see baseball as enjoyable entertainment.....but it ain't the ONLY entertainment.....and this is what the players do not understand.

I only thank God that I moved out of Cincinnati BEFORE I was forced to pay a tax to build the Bungals and Reds a public stadium....and why was I? because the players make sooo much money that the clbs can no longer afford to build their own.

So don't give me a bunch of BS about me not telling an OWNER what to do with HIS money......HIS hand is so deep in my pockets now that I have to buy larger pants.

If these clowns have the audacity to abuse the fair principles of collective bargaining and go out on strike then they can have their just desserts. They can raise sod in GAB for all I care. And you will get your wish....I won't be back.

And ramp, I won't be back if the Reds are the seconf coming of the BRM. Principles are at stake here...not the silly place in the standings.

Americans fused and fumed around about problems in Isreal and Europe with terrorists.......making believe it was all so far away until 9/11. Now, I think these greedy, self-righteous spoiled brats who play a children's game are about to bring the same reaction upon themselves. The last several strikes were just messing around by players (and fans) who were just arguing about how the kill the fatted calf. I believe this time it is about much more.

For 30 years the owners have given the players pretty much everything they asked for.....well, now it has come time to pay the piper. Every camel has his limit, and a strike two weeks before one of the worst days in American history is going to be the straw that breaks baseball's back.

In the heat of this, I've been thinking I would give it up. I'm tired of it. I'm tired of wearing my Reds on my sleeve only to have it discarded like yesterdays trash.

I belong to a union. In fact I am a union rep. Have been for over 13 years. Been in a union for 20 years, first with the Teamsters, then with the FOP. I've been on contract meetings for 13 years. I have a good idea of how the whole thing works. I know BS issues and BS cave ins when I see them. I also know how to look at the big picture. I see too many comments from the union and the owners, that obviously don't see the big picture.

The whole notion of this strike or close out, in particular, irratates the hell out of me. This is like a husband & wife getting a divorce. The fans feel like they are the kids, but being treated like the family dog's chew toy by the players and owners.

I get the idea from listening to the players that they don't see the disparity or don't care. The steroids testing is a joke, from the last submission that I saw that the players gave. But they can say they have steroids testing. I'm not sure the owners REALLY want to know if the players are using or not. Which makes it even a bigger joke. Some owners can't control themselves and there appears to be a tear in the collective owners seam, Steinbrenner apparently is siding with the players on the Luxary tax, according to one of the cable news sources I watched last night.

If you don't think that 9-11 will have an impact on fans opinion, I think you are hugely mistaken.

I don't think the players have the support from the fans that they have had in the past. I don't know how many times that I've heard the players reps saying that they have given and given, but the owners aren't giving a reasonable offer. "What have they given?", I've been asked numerous times.

I have serious doubts that baseball can handle a strike or close out, at least MLB as we know it. Sure there are those that will come back no matter what. I understand their feelings. Sure there will be a whole lot of fans that won't come back. I understand their feeling. Me, well I guess we will find out if and when the time comes.

Ok first off.... TeamCasey.. I in no way meant you, when I was talking about ridiculous posts, sorry if it seemed that way...In fact, I shouldnt have even put that at all, I honestly dont know who I was referring to. I was just heated...

RFIC, You say baseball wont fold up and go away? what is it going to do then, Are the owners just going to suck it up and take losses year in and year out?
You are right, It will show baseball that it cant take fans for granted.... But I ask you this, what will it take to bring you back to the park? lower ticket prices? lower concession prices? Better players? all these things take away from revenue, which (sadly) is what major league baseball is all about. Basically, what I am saying is that the owners will have very few options if everyone stops going to games. which leads me to believe that they could fold.

I just really think it is stupid to boycott something that you love, simply because the providers stop giving it for a while. No one is forcing carl lindner to keep the reds in cincy where he averages less than half his capacity attendance per game. Hell, The owners could decide tomorrow that they dont want to have baseball anymore, then what will we do?
I think we as fans take baseball for granted alot, we dont remember that we ultimatley have no say in the demise of this game, It is ran by businessmen that can do what they want. Look at art modell, (disclaimer: I think it was very funny when Cleveland lost their team, but thats only because I hate the browns). Art wasnt happy with the way things were going in Cleveland, so he packed up and left, and no one could do jack. What is to stop Carl Lindner from doing that if after a strike, we average 5000 people a game?

I just think you all should think about the consequences before you make such a rash decision. Maybe baseball means alot more to me than the average person. But I do not want to see baseball taken away from me.

Did anyone stop shipping UPS after they struck a couple years ago?

Heres to hoping that this is all a moot point and there is an agreement before the 30th!!

Cbus, this is where you miss the salient point. UPS drivers don't average 2.3 million dollars a year.

I am not a Union kinda guy....but I can respect that CourgarQuest is. CQ doesn't pretentd to be in a union when it suits his wants but then turn to his agent when he wants to be an individual.

THis is hypocisy in the nth degree and mocks all other unions who have a valid purpose.

There just isn't anymore vanilla coating that you can slather on the basic problem anymore.

We were told, build us new stadiums and that will fix the problem, so we built the stadiums....now we are told, let us contract and realign, that will fix it.......then Selig tells Congress that the industry is losing 500 million a year.

And on top of that, you happen to be a Reds fan, so, you have to hope for the eternal MIRALCE every year so that your team LOOKS like it can compete.......

2.3 mil a year or 20 grand a year, WHO CARES!! they are providing a service. I dont care what you make at your job, you shouldnt care what I make at my job. the owners can pay the players what they want, its THEIR money. individual salary is NOT the issue. what does it have to do with anything?

I have to give you kudos for your convictions. I sincerely do. You're sticking to your guns with a probable- less than popular opinion. I simply can't give in to the fear of losing the Reds. We already went through that with the new stadiums proposition. I can't be held hostage again. I won't do it. I'm also of the belief that baseball will never die, but if it folded, it would come back looking much differently than it does today and better. You see, I can give up MLB. I could fanaticize a minor league, or some other form of the game. I really could, I did it with football.

I was a Browns fan, because my Dad was. It was an entertainment that we shared. You know what? I don't follow any particular football team right now. I walked away from football because of Art Modell. I watch, but not with the same interest. I'll follow baseball, but it will be tainted for me. It's not because I'm a casual fan, it's because I'm a passionate fan that shrugged and walked away.

Individual salaries absolutely is the issue. Individual salaries are what the Union is worried about. Individual salaries are what the owners are worried about. It's not the cost of hotdogs that they are worried about. It's individual salaries.

The Union doesn't want the luxary tax because that will prevent teams from being able to give higher and higher multi million dollar individual salaries.

The Owners want the luxary tax because some of the owners can't stop themselves from getting a player they always wanted, and thereby paying that kind of money, thereby increasing everyone elses individual salary, because Joe can say that he is worth at least 50% of what Rod is worth. And when it goes to arbitration, and the arbitrator looks at the stats , guess what, he is 50% as good as Rod, so guess what, he gets his salary demands. Owners can't hold too much back, because if they do, then there is another colusion lawsuit. So they CAN'T pay players what they want.

Quote bt Cbus.... "My point is, If you dont wanna forgive baseball for having disagreements over something that doesnt even concern you, Then I hope to never see you at the ballpark again. AND THAT INCLUDES PLAYOFF GAMES YOU FAIRWEATHER FREAKS!"

Strong words for a very young man . I've been a fan of baseball since the early 60's, and have been to way too many games to try and count them. You first say that it "doesn't even concern you". Really? It doesn't concern us when they continue to ask the taxpayers to pass levies to pay for their new stadiums and then charge you an arm & a leg to buy a ticket (let alone pay for the concessions)? Are we suppose to be like "blind sheep with our tongues hanging out" every time either the players or owners show indifference towards those fans who support the game and walk all over us?

The players have a union that enables them to have a united voice to express their dissatifaction and air their grievances. But what of the fans? Are you saying that we don't count? Sorry, but boycotting the game, and showing a "united effort" is a very strong & sensible tool for the fans to show that they do carry some clout, regardless of what the players or owners may think.

The lack of fan attendance hurt the game for 2-3 years after the '94 strike. MLB did the Curly Shuffle to win back support, and yet attendance has never fully recovered to the levels they would like.

And the players know that to strike this time could be very disastrous to the game. Yes they may be stupid enough to still do it. But it will cause irreparable damage to the game and drive away many of the "casual" fans. The die hards will come back..but only after they have let their voice & displeasure be known for awhile by boycotting the game.

The players and owners have gotten way too big for their britches, and more importantly, carry the same attitude you expressed by saying to us "it doesn't concern you" or "you don't count".

And it does not mean that we are fair weather fans, as you so apply described us.

Tom Verducci said it best when he said the players didn't care about winning a public relations war, they cared about winning a labor war. So if they don't care about us, why should we care about them? They have never given a single inch in their entire lives. The players have won every single labor dispute in the last 20 years.

What really irks me is when people like Mark Grace go on Sportscenter and ramble on about how the PA is making 'sacrifices' and that if the owners really want to make a deal they will reach won. What sacrifices Mark? Having a luxury tax that serves as a slap on the wrist for ONE team? Having a steroid testing policy which a respected member of the World Anti-Doping committee and the chairman of NYU Medical Center called a joke?

All these guys care about is money right now, and it honestly makes me sick to my stomach. They don't care that at the beginning of the year over half the teams can't complete. All they care about is seeing that every player makes a ton of money, regardless of whether that player is being paid $12 million dollars to start every now and then. There are too many teams right now and too much diluted talent, but no one cares. There are too many owners pocketing money from revenue sharing that they should be using to bolster their payroll. There are too many owners who give players $252 million dollar contracts when the next highest bidder was around $130 million.

Both sides are being incredibly stubborn and selfish. They look like idiots with their stupid "We are making sacrifices" comments when there are still firefighters and relief workers cleaning up the remains of the worst tragedy on American soil. Some workers can't go on strike for fear of losing their job. And we are supposed to have any sort of sympathy for people who live in fantasy world?

I have loved this sport since I was little, so I honestly can't say whether or not I will ever be back if they strike. Most likely I won't go to any games for a few years. Maybe I will watch on tv if the Reds are doing well. But honestly, if they do strike, it will do irreparable damage to an already dying sport.

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