I've seen photographs of Pope John Paul II kissing the Islamic Holy Book. I was wondering if any Orthodox religious authorities have done so??

It wouldn't be tolerated ,,i have that picture in my photo album on my computer to remind me never to become a roman catholic....i wonder why the roman church didn't condemn what he did,instead of finding excuses for it... or even the lay catholic people didn't rise up to condemn what he did and demand his removal ...upon the death of john paul 11 they should of had a imam officiate at the funeral since he did canonize the quran with a kiss ....in orthodoxy the people would of demanded the removal of a orthodox bishop if one God forbid did some thing like that,...stasko/stanislav

It wouldn't be tolerated ,,i have that picture in my photo album on my computer to remind me never to become a roman catholic....

How very, uh, inspiring. Wouldn't a photo of something reminding you why you want to be Orthodox be better than a reminder why you want to not be something else? We should desire to be Orthodox because we seek God, not because some other choice is worse. Our faith is good and whole and beautiful in and of itself; it doesn't need to be "not-Latin" to be desireable.

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Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great

They better not, especially since Islam gnashes its teeth at Christianity so badly. I've read more than a few verses that concern their views on Christians and Jews, and it makes me want to say, "Dude...you guys seriously need to get dates! It would maybe knock off all that religious tension...."

Your original choice of words was a bit too crude. Cleveland, GM

« Last Edit: March 19, 2008, 10:29:34 AM by cleveland »

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*I am no longer posting on OC.net*

We all have a Black Dog and a White Dog inside of us. The One you feed the most eventually eats the Other.

All are tempted, but it is the courageous person who clings to God during the storm. For the Ego is a prison, but Christ is the Liberator

Btw, under Islamic law a non-muslim/kaafir should not touch, let alone kiss, a Quran. At best it is interpreted as a sign of conversion.

I don't think JP II converted, nor should his whole career and life be reduced to one silly act.

As for that computer picture, I agree: a picture of a babushka bowing before an icon lighting her candle would be nice.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

I've said this before, and I'll say it again: At most you can say the act was imprudent. Anyone with a brain knows what John Paul II believed about the Catholic and Christian faith. Read Dominus Iesus. Ask what the Muslims think of that. They know what he believes, but they also know his goodwill, and he had that in spades. Sometimes his love and goodwill led him a bit too far (Assisi 1986 is another example). This was a man who personally lived through the most appallingly violent time in human history. He was a man who deeply desired peace. Sometimes, like I said, his gestures went a bit over the top. But it doesn't take away from what a great apostle of peace and understanding John Paul II was.

I agree it was a bad idea. But at the same time, not a huge deal. Kissing is a sign of respect and gratitude. John Paul II did it often. Recall his kissing the tarmac whenever he got off a plane. If I were kissing a Qur'an given to me as a gift, with that kiss I would be expressing gratitude for the gift and respecting the certain elements of truth found within it. It was and is obvious to everyone (including to the cleric who presented it) that John Paul was not personally endorsing Muhammad's supposed revelation as found in that book when he kissed it.

Our Patriarchs of Alexandria just prefer to publicly profess that Mohammed is a Prophet rather than just kissing the Quran. Glass houses...

Would you like to elaborate with some context?

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

I've said this before, and I'll say it again: At most you can say the act was imprudent. Anyone with a brain knows what John Paul II believed about the Catholic and Christian faith. Read Dominus Iesus. Ask what the Muslims think of that. They know what he believes, but they also know his goodwill, and he had that in spades. Sometimes his love and goodwill led him a bit too far (Assisi 1986 is another example). This was a man who personally lived through the most appallingly violent time in human history. He was a man who deeply desired peace. Sometimes, like I said, his gestures went a bit over the top. But it doesn't take away from what a great apostle of peace and understanding John Paul II was.

I agree it was a bad idea. But at the same time, not a huge deal. Kissing is a sign of respect and gratitude. John Paul II did it often. Recall his kissing the tarmac whenever he got off a plane. If I were kissing a Qur'an given to me as a gift, with that kiss I would be expressing gratitude for the gift and respecting the certain elements of truth found within it. It was and is obvious to everyone (including to the cleric who presented it) that John Paul was not personally endorsing Muhammad's supposed revelation as found in that book when he kissed it.

Now your church knows that no man is infalable including the late pope or the present one or all the past ones....kissing the tarmac is entirely different than the quran...the tarmac doesn't deny or accept the divinty of or not of Christ....the quran deny's the most holy trinity and the divinity of christ there is a big difference about these 2 inanimate objects...stop with all the excuses he was your supreme leader your church chose a infallable man to be the head of you church that turned out to be fallable instead of christ as supreme head.....just like in the old testement around the time of david ,,the children of israel chose a fallable man saul as king and regected the eternal king God allmighty to be there king and supreme head....so the catholic church got what it struggled so hard to have now your stuck with them.....stasko/stanislav

The Latin Church does not teach that the Pope is infallible in every way, but only when he is making statements ex cathedra, which happens very rarely. Granted, it would seem to me that they do tend to cultivate an aura of infallibility surrounding his office, but, AFAIK, the official teaching is more or less as I described it above.

We shall cite first the case of His Beatitude [Parthenios], the Patriarch of Alexandria, who, on at least two occasions, has stated that we Christians ought to recognize Mohammed as a prophet. To this day, however, no one has called for him to step down, and this dreadfully heedless Patriarch continues to preside in the Church of Alexandria as if there were nothing wrong.

As you already know, I'm on the liberal side when it comes to these matters, so it doesn't really bother me in the least... but I don't see the point in lambasting Catholicism for an issue that still appears to be unresolved among the Orthodox.

From this letter of the athonite community:As you already know, I'm on the liberal side when it comes to these matters, so it doesn't really bother me in the least... but I don't see the point in lambasting Catholicism for an issue that still appears to be unresolved among the Orthodox.

Patriarch Parthenios III was also a president of the World Council of Churches - sums up all you need to know.

« Last Edit: March 18, 2008, 03:47:13 AM by Heracleides »

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"And having found Heracleides there again, we instructed him to proclaim the Gospel of God..." ~Acts of Barnabas

From this letter of the athonite community:As you already know, I'm on the liberal side when it comes to these matters, so it doesn't really bother me in the least... but I don't see the point in lambasting Catholicism for an issue that still appears to be unresolved among the Orthodox.

What issue would that be? Muhammad is not a prophet like Moses, period. No discussion among the Orthodox on that.

I have heard the worshippers of Athos state that the non-Chalcedonians canonized Eutyches. They, in fact, anathematized him (belatedly, I admit, but then they were ahead of us in condemning the Three Chapters).

I would rather have an attributed quote, rather than a second hand accusation.

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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.A hasty quarrel kindles fire,and urgent strife sheds blood.If you blow on a spark, it will glow;if you spit on it, it will be put out; and both come out of your mouth

Pope Blessed John XXIII and Pope John Paul II (eternal memory) both personally celebrated the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom with the Melkites and Ukrainians, respectively. Blessed John XXIII wore Byzantine vestments using the papal tiara as his mitre. Pope John Paul II wore Latin vestments. Popes will also attend Eastern Liturgies and preside from the choir while others celebrate. A picture of Pope John Paul II celebrating is at this site:

here's one your infallible pope's here in this picture you can have him and them....pope at his finest....sad ,,,i wonder if he went to Muslim heaven and has 72 hourises,,,МИР БОЖИЈИ to all the Orthodox christians...ХРИСТОС ВОСКРЕСЕ....ВОИСТИНУ ВОСКРЕСЕ.........

here's one you infallible pope here in this picture you can have him....pope at his finest....sad ,,,i wonder if he went to Muslim heaven and has 72 hourises,,,МИР БОЖИЈИ to all the Orthodox christians...ХРИСТОС ВОСКРЕСЕ....ВОИСТИНУ ВОСКРЕСЕ.........

I don't deny that Pope John Paul kissing the Quran possibly sets a bad precedent. But really, is this slap against the good father's memory necessary?

Well, he did kiss the Qu'ran.How many Martyrs chose torture and death rather than bow to false idols?

I agree with brother George martyrdom is preferred than to deny The Most Holy Trinity....Our Great Lord And God..as orthodox Christians we have to take a stand in what we believe..and not trying to be politically correct in not trying to offend and pertending your alright and im alright...God's Peace..Christ Has Risen....

Isn't the ecumenical patriarch courting the heretics know praying with them and the late heretic when he was alive,,,Of course we have to care....Christ Has Risen......

When His All Holiness kisses a statue of the Immaculate Conception, or recites the Creed with the filioque, I'll worry then. Cordial relations between people of different faith are fine, and they can meet on common ground. I have several Muslim friends whom I hold very dear, but I would never kiss their Qurans. I was going camping with an Iraqi Muslim friend some years ago, and we were leaving from his house, and when we got to the doorstep, he held the Quran up for me to walk under it three times as is the Muslim custom on embarking on a journey. I got out my pocket New Testament and held it up saying: "Will you pass under this and submit yourself to Christ as God?" He smilingly declined and said "I understand" and held the Quran up for himself to walk under and kiss, and put it away.

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Brother George didn't the pope cross himself like the orthodox,,and the ecumenical patriarch like the latins and didn't they recite the pope the orthodox creed and the ecumenical patriarch the latin creed.....i could be mistaken on the creed recital thought......Christ has Risen.....

Brother George didn't the pope cross himself like the orthodox,,and the ecumenical patriarch like the latins

I think if the Pope had crossed himself with three fingers, people may actually have taken it as an insult and phoney. Don't forget, the Orthodox have crossed themselves in different ways over the centuries (and the Old Believers still do), as have the Roman Catholics. There is only a customary way for an Eastern Orthodox Christian to Cross themselves- what should those Orthodox Christians whose fingers have been amputated do? Should they not Cross themselves as best they can? The Cross must be respected wherever it appears- even if it is on the wall of the most heretical sect's church, it is still the Cross.

Brother George in the serbian church there is one parishioner who doesn't have a right arm ,,,he crosses him self with his left,,he uses what he has

What an inspiration! I once watched a running race among people with disabilities, and one of the athletes' artificial leg fell off and he fell to the ground, but he just got up on his one leg, picked up his artificial limb, and hopped the rest of the race. He came last, but he finished the race. The same goes for us, it doesn't matter if we come last, provided we finish the race, and this sometimes means carrying our own personal handicaps.

« Last Edit: May 15, 2008, 08:53:26 AM by ozgeorge »

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

here's one your infallible pope's here in this picture you can have him and them....pope at his finest....sad ,,,i wonder if he went to Muslim heaven and has 72 hourises,,,МИР БОЖИЈИ to all the Orthodox christians...ХРИСТОС ВОСКРЕСЕ....ВОИСТИНУ ВОСКРЕСЕ.........

Well, if mocking the deceased John Paul II with talk of his partaking of 72 virgins with Muslims in the afterlife and (on another post) calling on terrorists to destroy the Vatican are considered acceptable comments by the OC.net moderators, I wish no longer to participate in OC.net.

Well, if mocking the deceased John Paul II with talk of his partaking of 72 virgins with Muslims in the afterlife and (on another post) calling on terrorists to destroy the Vatican are considered acceptable comments by the OC.net moderators, I wish no longer to participate in OC.net.

Is or is not Pope John Paul II kissing the Qur'an in this photograph, a book which explicitly denies the Holy Trinity (Qur‘an, 4:171) and the Divinity of Christ (Qur‘an, 5:116)?

Stasko's point is that this is a clear sign of a denial of Christ and acceptance of Muslim teachings. If you disagree then you are free to respond.

As for the other point, stasko also called for the destruction of the Oecumenical Patriarchate (my Bishop) in the same post. That's fine. That's his opinion. I disagree, and I've told him so. And he didn't actually say "terrorists"- you did. In which case, you could say that Constantinople also fell to "terrorists"- which is quite ludicrous.

« Last Edit: May 15, 2008, 09:55:28 AM by ozgeorge »

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

I agree with brother George martyrdom is preferred than to deny The Most Holy Trinity....Our Great Lord And God..as orthodox Christians we have to take a stand in what we believe..and not trying to be politically correct in not trying to offend and pertending your alright and im alright...God's Peace..Christ Has Risen....

This is the main point in my opinion.

The 'act' was cowardess and put to shame those who died rather than bow down to things that are not of God and dny the true Christ. The suffering of our martyrs and saints is the root of the true faith. WE are ALL obligated to hold onto our integrity and resist todays "Liberalism" which on the surface seems very good but it is not Christian. Christians can not be all things to all people. WE are 'Christians' all the time and to all people and in all situations

The Quran is not of God...it is blasphemy from start to finish.

Our late father Pope John Paul II I feel sure asked God for forgiveness for this mishap in his own quiet space. It was to him I believe a very low point of his long and beautiful stewardship of the Roman Catholic Church and its mission throughout the world. He cared for and loved the people. He was well loved.

As for the other point, stasko also called for the destruction of the Oecumenical Patriarchate (my Bishop) in the same post. That's fine. That's his opinion. I disagree, and I've told him so. And he didn't actually say "terrorists"- you did. In which case, you could say that Constantinople also fell to "terrorists"- which is quite ludicrous.

I pray to God that the moslem majority in rome succeeds in the vatican's total destruction the place were they plotted our destruction

Who exactly in this "Muslim majority in Rome" would plot the Vatican's "total destruction"? Could they be terrorists?

As for your intimation that John Paul II was a Muslim, that is beyond the pale.

I never disputed that it was a mistake. It most certainly was, but if John Paul was doing what the photo appears to show (not completely certain, as it is a photo floating around the Internet without context), and if he knew what that gift was, it is still clear from his entire ministry that he believes in the universal salvific role of Jesus Christ. Remember Dominus Iesus? Knowing his background in the horrors of Eastern Europe in the middle part of the 20th century (something NONE of us could ever understand), John Paul was sometimes a little overeager about gestures of peace and goodwill.

Even though a mistake, it was a momentary mistake. He could hardly have premeditated it. How a misguided but momentary gesture of respect in a lifetime of great holiness and ministry and charity could justify mocking the deceased with talk of fornicating with 72 virgins and (you) making intimations that John Paul outed himself as a Muslim, I do not know.

I cannot believe such anti-Catholic bigotry goes unwarned on OC.net. Yet I remain saddled with a warning for what was a trifle. I've lost my last shred of confidence in OC.net moderation.

Is this what passes for Christian charity on OC.net? I've been here a while and enjoyed it here, but this may be the last straw.

I completely agree with Amdetsion and support his kind post. I must also agree with Lubeltri that Ozgeorge is not consistent with his moderation and seems to have a bone to pick with you especially. One must admit that the late Pope John Paul II was a good man and tried his best to guide his Church. It is unfortunate that he made the mistake of kissing the Quran...only our Lord and Savior is able to judge a man and his intent. Of course we should uphold our beliefs as Christians but we are also called to treat others with kindness and mercy.

I must also agree with Lubeltri that Ozgeorge is not consistent with his moderation and seems to have a bone to pick with you especially.

If you observe a problem with the moderation that you believe merits attention, please report the post in question so that the appropriate global moderator or Fr. Chris may address the situation. Calling out the moderator in public is both in poor taste and an ineffective method of resolving problems.Veniamin, FFA Moderator

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Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great

Pardon my indiscretion. I was not trying to embarrass Ozgeorge,,,only emphasizing what seems to be obvious to all of us who read the posts with banter between the two in questions. I will now make sure to go through the corrrect channels. However I will also say that calling out the Late Pope, imho is most certainly in poor taste!

Well, if mocking the deceased John Paul II with talk of his partaking of 72 virgins with Muslims in the afterlife and (on another post) calling on terrorists to destroy the Vatican are considered acceptable comments by the OC.net moderators, I wish no longer to participate in OC.net.

Vatican tried many many times thru history to divide[fragment] and absorb or destroy the Holy Orthodox Church in what ever country it was in From Serbia. ukrainia Russia..Romainia,,,Ethiopia,,Egypt,Jerusalem,Bosnia,,,India....and other places,some with bribes,other by the Jesuits,masquerading as orthodox clergy or by military force..............world war 11 croatia/bosnia....when my own mother and dad were being herded in bosnia with other's like cattle,the one's that wern't massacred were packed like sardines into cattle train car's for a trip to germany for the forced labor work camps thousands of people died in the standing position on those trains they were packed so tight,,the croatians would taunt them by saying any body that crosses them self's with three fingers and right to left and didn't accept the pope that person should be killed and buried 6 meters....now you know why i don't care for the pope's or the vatican with its plotting and schemes it's hunger for power that's never satisfied history itself bears witness.....What the Vatican has sowed may it allso reap it's own destruction.....God's Peace .....Christ Has Risen....Tuly He Has Risen.........other orthodox faithful from different country's also. have there own vatican horror story's......

Vatican tried many many times thru history to divide[fragment] and absorb or destroy the Holy Orthodox Church in what ever country it was in From Serbia. ukrainia Russia..Romainia,,,Ethiopia,,Egypt,Jerusalem,Bosnia,,,India....and other places,some with bribes,other by the Jesuits,masquerading as orthodox clergy or by military force..............world war 11 croatia/bosnia....when my own mother and dad were being herded in bosnia with other's like cattle,the one's that wern't massacred were packed like sardines into cattle train car's for a trip to germany for the forced labor work camps thousands of people died in the standing position on those trains they were packed so tight,,the croatians would taunt them by saying any body that crosses them self's with three fingers and right to left and didn't accept the pope that person should be killed and buried 6 meters....now you know why i don't care for the pope's or the vatican with its plotting and schemes it's hunger for power that's never satisfied history itself bears witness.....What the Vatican has sowed may it allso reap it's own destruction.....God's Peace .....Christ Has Risen....Tuly He Has Risen.........other orthodox faithful from different country's also. have there own vatican horror story's......

The Catholic Church is also responsible for virtually the entire salvation of the Western cultural legacy, brought western education to the poor in India and South America, stopped human sacrifice in Mexico, etc etc etc.

Every Church has good and bad. The papacy did bad things, the papacy did good things. Because I live in American in 2008, the politics of the past is irrelevant to me; what I care about is that the Pope is a heretic and has done heretical things like promoting "interfaith dialogue" and has not returned to Orthodoxy.

The experiences your family went through on the other hand were horrible and it is because of that that these issues matter to you more. That is understandable. But we cannot attribute collective guilt to people. John Paul II was not the same as any Croatian WWII militia commander or priest associated with them. He was a great man who virtually ended communism in Eastern Europe. So my request to you is to to focus on the facts and not attack him and ask questions like "is he in the Muslim heaven with the 72 virgins" which is extremely insulting to our Roman Catholic posters here when that has nothing to do with this discussion. You can attack the heresies of the Pope without insulting the character of John Paul II who was overall a very good man who made the world a better place.

Vatican tried many many times thru history to divide[fragment] and absorb or destroy the Holy Orthodox Church in what ever country it was in From Serbia. ukrainia Russia..Romainia,,,Ethiopia,,Egypt,Jerusalem,Bosnia,,,India....and other places,some with bribes,other by the Jesuits,masquerading as orthodox clergy or by military force..............world war 11 croatia/bosnia....when my own mother and dad were being herded in bosnia with other's like cattle,the one's that wern't massacred were packed like sardines into cattle train car's for a trip to germany for the forced labor work camps thousands of people died in the standing position on those trains they were packed so tight,,the croatians would taunt them by saying any body that crosses them self's with three fingers and right to left and didn't accept the pope that person should be killed and buried 6 meters....now you know why i don't care for the pope's or the vatican with its plotting and schemes it's hunger for power that's never satisfied history itself bears witness.....What the Vatican has sowed may it allso reap it's own destruction.....God's Peace .....Christ Has Risen....Tuly He Has Risen.........other orthodox faithful from different country's also. have there own vatican horror story's......

I am sorry stashko for the atrocities you mentioned. I know its is not 'my' fault specifically but as a servant of the church I want to immediately extend to you my regret and deep remorse for the suffering that your people endured (are enduring).

God bless the souls of those who lost there lives at the hands of the merciless and the Godless.

The loss you point out is a shock to me. It caused me great sadness.

I was going to post a few atrocities heaped onto my people in Ethiopia and various areas of my beloved African motherland which of course includes Egypt. But after reading your post I have lost my interest in pointing out what is my own record of "Roman Catholic backed suffering" for this thread. I am compelled to instead beg you and others to resist recanting the horrors of a fallen period which in due time will be judged by the Lord; but instead find forgiveness in our hearts.

Is forgiveness the goal?

I beg you all to persue it; even for your own sakes and the sake of your children as well as for the sake of those who have already sufferred and lost there lives. Let that suffering be met with true forgiveness so that the death and suffering of our loved ones is not in vain. Bitterness and a hard heart will not prepare us for the Kingdom that Christ is preparing.

Crying (that is to also pray for) deeply for the suffering of others will help to encourge humility in each of us even if or while we yet still suffer. This is the healing we need for ourselves which is in Gods Love which or Lord and Savior Jesus Christ Taught us.

I know this post is not fun or glib and is not a targeted attack out our reposed holy father Pope John Paul II. But after reading this I pray that each of us pray for the faults and sins of our persecutors that God forgive them there sins and that we also pray for each other that we may soon heal from the wounds we have been given.