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Topic Review (Newest First)

07-13-2003 12:55 PM

jimS

#1. Yes
#2. Yes
#3. No, but have Rio Striper versitips for the kids and as my backup. The clunk thru the guides is one of the dislikes, but changing heads, and coiling the heads takes longer than changing spools. It is however a cheaper route for several different heads.
#4. The weight of the head depends on the rod weight. Nominal head weight for a 9wt rod is 240 grains. I prefer a heavier head to load the rod for quick, short shots. For a 9wt, a 280 grain head (standard for a 10wt) works well. I use a 300 grain Rio sinktip for the 9wt.
#5. 26' head, which is the sinktip length for Rio lines.

I assume you are referring to intermediate lines with a color change on the running line to be intermediate and not floating. Rio does make Quickshooter, Tarpon and Bonefish lines with an intermedaite tip with a color change (tan) with a floating running line.

Simms

07-08-2003 11:11 PM

juro

Eddie,

Well since you pointed out that the issue might not be too much grains, I agree - the issue can also be too few grains or more succintly the tranfer of available energy from lesser to greater grains.

Your point about friction (more accurately surface tension) is IMHO equally non-precise in that it takes grains to move grains, i.e.: transition of energy occurs from greater grains and diameter to lesser grains and diameter over the length of the line but it does not do very well progressing from lesser to greater, as is the case when the line is not stripped to a point where the rod can actuate a transfer progressively. In spey casting for instance it's possible to lift and cast well over 100 feet of line provided the taper graduates over that length, surface tension easily overcome by a gentle lift before the cast. Yet the same rod would not do squat if the running line was in the water because it can not transfer energy to the greater grain section.

Of course the other key factor is sunk line, but it's not possible to roll it up to the surface unless the above is true (energy over taper). You'd have the same problem with a floater but it would feel like a 5 lb anchor instead of a 10 lb

This might suggest theoretically that a very long progressive taper would be ideal for flats fishing, but this is not the case since a significant number of "shots" are tight to your position (what I refer to as getting "jammed") and you need an all-around grain distribution to deal with those days when you just can't see the fish until they are on top of you.

In addition, the objective is to pursue a general purpose intermediate line with the benefits of the quickfire sinking heads, and a very long taper would not fit in the surf or rip current situations nearly as well as the more concentrated heads we know and love.

John -

You might have already suspected that this visual queue also makes it possible to apply the single backcast (no false, no haul) beach cast for most or all of the fly line using a double-handed overhead rod like the one I am field testing. Dennis Worley and I were discussing this technique of rolling out the head, shooting line into a single back cast, then firing the whole line with one cast yesterday. He's used it for roosterfish in the tropics, coho salmon in the sound and has some experience with it. It's pretty much become the standard cast for two-handed overhead casts for distance whether you talk to Nick Curcione, Jay Horton, Harry Koons, or any of the recent two-handed tinkerer's on the atlantic coast. So Dennis and I agreed this is really a distinct cast and we dubbed it the beach cast.

So it's utility applies not only to learning casters, quickfire sight fishing but also to beach casting. This is the technique I was using on the morning of the fourth when we all hit the beach, although that was left handed the backing knot still got out into the guides when I kept the backcast straight.

BTW - I have already received a favorable reply from one of the major line makers but until it reaches approval I don't want to say who in appreciation of the gesture.

Keep the opinions coming!

07-08-2003 07:55 PM

Eddie

I think that the color code would have to be unique for each manufacturer. I seem to remember SA or Rio haveing a problem with infriging on Teeny's color code. Something like that.
Your senario reminds me of tarpon fishing. It is common to try to pick up too much line after a blown first shot. I thought about marking the begining of the ruuning line, but the maximum amount of line I can pick up is different at different times. Sometimes I can pick up 60'. Some times only 40'. I suppose a mark would have helped.
Also, I'm not sure if the issue is too many grains. I think that it has to do with the running line not having enough body, and too much friction on the water. I doubt I could pick up 90' of one weight line on a 9wt.
I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

07-08-2003 07:54 PM

striblue

Thanks Juro...Good points...No..You can't have any equipment...unless off course you want to trade for that gorgeous long rod you are working on.

07-08-2003 11:10 AM

Mattb

Juro, I'm currently using a Sci Anglers wet tip express 375 Grain on a 10 weight. It has a grey head and red running line.

I was going to say that I don't pay any attention to the color break, but after thinking about your example above, I can think of a few times sight fishing when I've used the color break as a reference to pick up and recast. I hadn't really thought of that application before, but now that you bring it up, it makes sense.

I don't think the color break in an intermediate would be a deal breaker for me, but I could now see it swinging the decision between to similar lines.

07-08-2003 09:22 AM

juro

Matt -

Appreciate the candor. Just curious, which sinking line do you use?

To your point we all cast by feel in that we feel our way out until the rod loads then we shoot. The issue is not one of feeling the rod load, it's one of assurance of <n> grains as a starting point. and thus eliminating the process of feeling out the grains. Not always necessary, but often helpful.

Consider this scenario:

A pod is approaching at 70 feet against the current at 11 o'clock. The fish are skittish today so we want a good lead cast and a down angle so make a long cast and wait for them.

BUT they turn to a wider angle to the left at 50 feet so the fly lays in waiting for nothing under the tension of the current pulling further away. We need to pick the fly up ASAP and get it in the path of these absolute pig stripers! They start to flash and roll on bait, one swirls and a tail pops out as they work further to the left. The moment is NOW!

Stripping, stripping, feels like that dream where you can't run fast enough... pick up the line and there's too much grains! The caster flails and the fish scatter from all the commotion as the line flops and flubs and can't get there from here.

Or there is not enough grains! The caster buggy whips back and forth as he tries to get enough into the air to make the 50 foot cast as the pod vanishes into deep water.

Of course I exaggerate but the advantage here is knowing the starting point before feeling the cast - no false casts at all, just one back cast and bang. There is no back and forth process to feeling the grains involved, you know it's going to be there and it is, just like frets on a guitar.

There's something good to be said about feeling one's way to the load, it's a critical flyfishing skill but in addition to all that I believe a mnemonic device for elimination of the process of getting there does have it's place.

.02, thanks again for the reply.

07-08-2003 08:30 AM

Mattb

Questions:

#1 - Would a line that had a solid running line color to indicate grains of the head, and a clear intermediate head be useful?

I've never really found the color change useful. It looks like I'm in the minority here, but I've always done it by feel, so I don't really pay any attention to the color change.

#2 - Would you buy it?

I wouldn't buy one just because of the color change.

#3 - Do you use lines with exchangable tips for striper fishing? Do you experience clotting of weeds, clunking of the loop thru the guides during the retrieve, running fish or during landing of fish?

I've never tried exchangeable tips for striper fishing, I've always just carried a spare spool. I guess it's just a matter of what you're used to- exchanging tips on the water always seemed like it'd be too much of a pain.

- most sinking heads have a very useful color change, ALL intermediates do not

This isn't entirely true. I have a Rio clear intermediate that has a band of discolored glow in the dark running line just behind the head. It may not be a color change per se, but it's effectively the same thing.

-Matt

07-08-2003 08:26 AM

StriperTom

Quote:

Originally posted by juro This portion can be "quoted" for a reply to make things easier:

Questions:

#1 - Would a line that had a solid running line color to indicate grains of the head, and a clear intermediate head be useful?

It would be useful to know where the head starts on a clear intermediate line - one way or another. I personally don't like the idea of a 'bump' on the line to indicate where your hands 'should' be, as this will change for each person's style of casting, rod, fly, wind conditions, etc. I don't know if having a solid running line color is necessary, you could do a 6" section of color or something, just enough to indicate the change. I'm sure this would create a more complex manufacturing process which may add un-necessary cost.
#2 - Would you buy it?

I don't think this feature alone would cause me to purchase one line over another, I would be more concerned with the way it cast, loaded my particular rods, and how it held up over time. But all things being equal I'd probably take the line which had the head indicated.

If I really 'needed' this feature I'm sure I could rig something to my existing line to accomplish the same result. You could carefully apply a small section of colored heat-shrink tubing.. You could slide a piece of braided mono to the line and color it with a sharpie.. this would give you both a visual and a tactile sense for where the head began when you are casting at night.
#3 - Do you use lines with exchangable tips for striper fishing? Do you experience clotting of weeds, clunking of the loop thru the guides during the retrieve, running fish or during landing of fish?

The majority of my lines are single piece, with the exception of a spool that I have rigged with a shooting line which I use with 30' sections of LC-13 and/or Rio T-14.
#4 - Would you prefer:

I have fished the 24' QD lines for the last five years and thought they were fine. I recently swithced to the 26' Rio Striper and really find it to be easier to cast. The shorter heads tend to 'dump' at the end of the cast sometimes. I haven't had good luck with the 30' integrated lines, but for some reason I don't have a problem with the 30' LC-13/T-14.

Good luck!

-- Tom

07-08-2003 08:18 AM

juro

John, can't help you with your surplus of equipment... unless of course you need to get rid of some

Pick up your favorite 9wt 9ft, ignore the rest, then consider the following:

- most striper anglers use an intermediate line and a sinking head line

- most sinking heads have a very useful color change, ALL intermediates do not

I would like to ask line manufacturers to build a clear intermediate head which is the parallel of the popular color change sinking heads - but the head is clear. I need consumer data to reinforce my request to them.

Why is this useful?

- it's easy to tell when your cast will work by just looking, this counts when you need a follow-up shot to a moving pod on the flats or if you are having people flyfish in salt for their first time, etc.

- it keeps you in the same groove whether you use the sinking head or the intermediate head - without that damn loop connection banging thru the guides all day

- less false casts, safer on a boat

- the running line doesn't need to be clear on a clear intermediate line. In fact I would argue that being clear detracts from it's usefulness. On the flats, if someone is lining fish beyond the first 30ft, they need casting lessons anyway

Whenever I switch between the two the differences are much more than they need to be. As a guide, starting with the 325 QD on the beach and coming inside with a clear int on the flats is a big change for most customers and it messes people up. It messes me up too. Most blown casts on the flats are due to the wrong amount of load at the time the shot was taken. That's kinda dumb when we already have a solution on the other spool with the wrong head on it.

Anyway, I hope to chat with w few line companies over the next few days so keep the reinforcements or honest rebuttals coming and let's see what we, the forum, can get accomplished!

thanks,
Juro

07-07-2003 08:51 PM

striblue

Juro...a good survey... the problem I have is that lines is the last think I think about... what I mean is that I have a number of lines and and reels... The first sinking lines I have is the Teeny.. which is on my 7 and 8 .... they tangle too much in the striping basket.....but the Deep sea Rio is the the sinking line I use, along with the Orvis depth charge... I just can't remember which line is on which rod and real... I divide the the high number lines with the heavier rods...650 with the 12 down to 350 on the 9. What complicates things is that ..for example I have three 10 weights... the very smooth,"old" Scott eclips, Stiff T & T Horizon and a middle flex Sage RPLXI... I rotate rods and can't for the life of me figure which line I have on those rods although they are all sinking lines. This is not helpful...but I think the rod action is more key than the lines.... they was once a time when you had only three lines... the floating, the intermiediate and the sinking..... is this more marketing than substance... not your question... but the manufacturers that is.

07-07-2003 08:38 PM

jfbasser

Quote:

Originally posted by juro This portion can be "quoted" for a reply to make things easier:

Questions:

#1 - Would a line that had a solid running line color to indicate grains of the head, and a clear intermediate head be useful?

Yes

#2 - Would you buy it?

Yes

#3 - Do you use lines with exchangable tips for striper fishing? Do you experience clotting of weeds, clunking of the loop thru the guides during the retrieve, running fish or during landing of fish?

No. I keep other lines on spare spools. Tried Spey tips, not fond of them.

I use a T350 and a Orvis Depth Charge of 425 gr. on most of the Cape. I also have a 550 gr. shooting head system that I will occasionally use for some tides/rips. The 425 gets the most use.

in the clear intermediate head?
I have used the Airflo Clear, Coldwater Saltwater for the past 3 seasons and really like it for the intermediate, does not coil up in the stripping basket, like some other lines I have used

I have only used a 24' teeny in the 350 and the 30' (I think) in the Orvis Depth Charge. Both work well. No need to change.

07-07-2003 05:58 PM

Eddie

Answer to all questions posed: It depends on alot of things.

#1: I think it would be nice to have lines' weight marked by the factory. Cortland prints it, Teeny uses different color running lines, I mark them with a sharpie pen (long mark = 5 or 10, short = 1). I always forget what color from what brand is what, so colors make the least sense.
As far as marking the overhang, a bump isn't so great because everyone and every rod likes a different amount of head out of the tip. Some people like to tie in a nail knot of mono or use a sharpie to mark their sweet spot. A color change for this works well because you can see how much you like to have out.

2# : If it casts well, resists tangles, and is durable.

3# : I have only used interchangeable heads on my spey rods and fishing for steelhead. I hate the clunking feel and winding up 30' of shooting head is a pain. I would rather fish full lines on spools, but the potential to save money could be a good selling point.

4# : It depends on which rod I would be using it on, and how long the head was. A Sage RPLXi and Winston XTR have different needs. It would be cool if they offered saltwater lines in 50 gr. increments, and actually weighed the lines and marked the box (eg. : 329 gr.). When I weigh the lines, I am almost all ways surprised.

5 # : Both 26 and 30.

Until then, I will buy different lines for different rods, mark and chop and splice.
The Rio lines are very good, and I like the Airflow fast sinking heads. I find that I am using the intermediate lines less and less, and useing a floater more often.
Juro, if you need a line tester...

07-07-2003 04:54 PM

Adrian

Questions:

#1 - Would a line that had a solid running line color to indicate grains of the head, and a clear intermediate head be useful?

A. Yes!

#2 - Would you buy it?

A. Yes

#3 - Do you use lines with exchangable tips for striper fishing? Do you experience clotting of weeds, clunking of the loop thru the guides during the retrieve, running fish or during landing of fish?

A. Yes, I have the Rio Striper line. No problem with weeed clog but the clunking on the strip was annoying but I got used to it. However, I suspect that the "clunk" gets transmitted down the line which can result in refusals - only a hunch but based on a couple of observations we made on the last cape trip. Makes sense - its the old "two cans on a piece of taut string" principle.