IMO any speculation regarding the postmortem status of an arahant -- either pro or con -- is counterproductive. MN 72 Aggivacchagotta Sutta informs us that any view regarding the postmortem existence or non-existence of an arahant is a fetter of view (diṭṭhisaṃyojana) which doesn't lead to direct gnosis, to awakening, to nibbāna:

The view that after death a tathāgata exists is a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a vacillation of views, a fetter of views. It is accompanied by dissatisfaction, distress, despair, and fever. It does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calmness, direct gnosis, full awakening, nibbāna.

The view that after death a tathāgata does not exist is a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a vacillation of views, a fetter of views. It is accompanied by dissatisfaction, distress, despair, and fever. It does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calmness, direct gnosis, full awakening, nibbāna.

The view that after death a tathāgata both exists and does not exist is a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a vacillation of views, a fetter of views. It is accompanied by dissatisfaction, distress, despair, and fever. It does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calmness, direct gnosis, full awakening, nibbāna.

The view that after death a tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist is a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a vacillation of views, a fetter of views. It is accompanied by dissatisfaction, distress, despair, and fever. It does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calmness, direct gnosis, full awakening, nibbāna.

When the mind is completely awake and fully aware there is no urge to project or speculate about a hypothetical future. An arahant has realized that there is absolutely nothing whatsoever to be grasped at or clung to. And when the moment of death arrives he or she meets it with consciousness not established (appatiṭṭha viññāṇa).

You have a point. "'Anissita" does look conceptually similar to "appatiṭṭha", in the sense both import some sort of "support". But I think there might be a tiny difference.

Nissita, as far as I can tell, describes a sort of causal relationship between clinging and the Aggregates that leads to sakkayaditthi. On the other hand, appatiṭṭha always seems to be used only for vinnana and namarupa. I'm largely guided by DN 15 and the suttas I've cited to understand that "establishment" of consciousness is IN namarupa, where namarupa is given its literal sense of a foetus from DN 15.

If one looks at SN 4.23, the question on "establishment" was couched in terms of "where" (kattha), while in DN 15, establishment is in terms of "nāmarūpe" (locative of nāmarūpa). This locative sense to "patiṭṭha" lends it a rather different flavour from nissita, in my view, and probably explains why these words occur in specialised contexts.

A: ok dude, there's no such thing ...kind of. What you are mistakenly taking to be a person, is actually a bunch of impersonal delineated mechanistic bunch of aggregates being destroyed moment by moment. Their final cessation is hardly anything to cry over, in fact it should be celebrated, because it is nothing but suffering!

Q: I still don't get it, can you explain?

A: Shut up and practice. Don't take anything as existing. Don't think anything is of value or desirable. You'll get there, trust me! oh, and what you need to do is the 8 practices of the noble eightfold path.

Seriously, I'm begining to think the hassle over 'do I exist, don't I exist' is not worth it. You will see it for yourself when vipassana gets in gear.

-- This is not the hassle over 'do I exist, don't I exist' . Nibbana is the unconditioned, in which "I" and "exist" don't apply at all. The unconditioned should not be confused with the conditioned. This is the "hassle" to clarify whether or not nibbana is the annihilation of the awareness or (unestablished) consciousness, to avoid the wrong view and wrong practice of regarding the annihilation of awareness as nibbana. Would it be due to 1) the confusion of the Buddha's teachings on the conditioned (the all) with those on the unconditioned (nibbana), and 2) the misinterpretation of "not to have a fetter of views [regarding the conditioned as nibbana]" into "not having any views/understandings regarding nibbana (the unconditioned)", which has led to such wrong view and wrong practice of regarding "pitch-black emptiness" as nibbana and this kind of experience as supramundane fruitions?

2) Should we have a view (right view) about nibbnana at all?

"MN 72 Aggivacchagotta Sutta informs us that any view regarding the postmortem existence or non-existence of an arahant is a fetter of view (diṭṭhisaṃyojana) which doesn't lead to direct gnosis, to awakening, to nibbāna:

The view that after death a tathāgata exists is a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a vacillation of views, a fetter of views. It is accompanied by dissatisfaction, distress, despair, and fever. It does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calmness, direct gnosis, full awakening, nibbāna.

The view that after death a tathāgata does not exist is a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a vacillation of views, a fetter of views. It is accompanied by dissatisfaction, distress, despair, and fever. It does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calmness, direct gnosis, full awakening, nibbāna.

The view that after death a tathāgata both exists and does not exist is a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a vacillation of views, a fetter of views. It is accompanied by dissatisfaction, distress, despair, and fever. It does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calmness, direct gnosis, full awakening, nibbāna.

The view that after death a tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist is a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a vacillation of views, a fetter of views. It is accompanied by dissatisfaction, distress, despair, and fever. It does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calmness, direct gnosis, full awakening, nibbāna."

-- Please note these four views are only about "existence"/"non-existence" (which apply only to the conditioned phenomena), which don't apply to nibbana at all. Then of course, these views are not right views about nibbana, and are called "a thicket of views, ...". "Post-mortem continuum for an arahant" is not the continuum of any conditioned phenomena [ "existence"/"non-existence"], but the unconditioned, nibbana. Yes, nibbana is beyong our experience and description. We should not speculate about nibbana. But we should understand what nibbana is/isn't, and what we are discussing here is merely about what nibbana is/isn't. Yes, we should not conceive nibbana. But we are NOT trying to identify the unconditioned as "I", "mine", or 'do I exist, don't I exist', which don't apply to the unconditioned at all.

Actually the Buddha, to my knowledge, explained nibbana to us in many suttas. In MN 1, he clearly defined the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person as one who has not known nibbana, and instead he defined the trainee (the noble disciples) as one who directly knows nibbana, but yet to comprehend it without conceit:

[The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person ...]He perceives Nibbana as Nibbana. Perceiving Nibbana as Nibbana, he conceives Nibbana, he conceives [“I am”] in Nibbana, he conceives [“I am”] apart from Nibbana, he conceives Nibbana as 'mine,' he delights in Nibbana. Why is that? Because he has not comprehended it, I tell you. [Please note even for an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person, the Buddha didn't say he should not perceive nibbana, but only he shouldn't conceive nibbana and he should try to know and comprehend nibbana].

The Trainee ...He directly knows Nibbana as Nibbana. Directly knowing Nibbana as Nibbana, let him not conceive Nibbana, let him not conceive [“I am”] in Nibbana, let him not conceive [“I am”] apart from Nibbana, let him not conceive Nibbana as 'mine,' let him not delight in Nibbana. Why is that? So that he may comprehend it, I tell you.

I'm afraid without the knowing of nibbana one can't enter the stream, and without the complete comprehension of nibbana one can't become an arahant. By the way, the Buddha didn't include nibbana in the four unconjecturables:

The Buddha-range of the Buddhas … The jhana-range of a person in jhana…. The (precise working out of the) results of kamma…. Conjecture about (the origin, etc., of) the world…" -- Anguttara Nikaya IV.77 (Acintita Sutta)

3) "oh, and what you need to do is the 8 practices of the noble eightfold path".-- Indeed, the first and most important step is: RIGHT VIEW about the 4NT including the 3rd NT -- nibbana.

We can (and are allowed to) have different views but we should never be absolutely sure only my view is correct and all the others' views are wrong/ worthless, especially when the others' view/point hasn't really been correctly grasped and when we are not yet (fully) enlightened. I always alert myself that these views I tend to hold as "mine" and as the truth (when I forget about defilements) might be actually caused by incoming defilements, and I'm not yet devoid of the defilements to be able to see the real truth without bias. I also alert myself that I probably haven't gotten a complete, unbiased comprehension of the Buddha's teachings concerning e.g. nibbana ...

But all the input and kind effort to help has genuinely been appreciated. Metta to all,

Starter

Last edited by starter on Fri May 13, 2011 7:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

starter wrote: Nibbana is the unconditioned, in which "I" and "exist" don't apply at all. The unconditioned should not be confused with the conditioned.

You still talk about "the unconditioned" as if there were some thing to be called "the unconditioned."

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++++++++++++++++This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

There is freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning. If there were not this freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning, then escape from that which is birth, becoming, making, conditioning, would not be known here. -- Ud 80

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

starter wrote: Nibbana is the unconditioned, in which "I" and "exist" don't apply at all. The unconditioned should not be confused with the conditioned.

You still talk about "the unconditioned" as if there were some thing to be called "the unconditioned."

I don't think that necessarily follows from what starter has said. Do you perceive starter is reifying "the unconditioned"?

Metta,Retro.

"When we transcend one level of truth, the new level becomes what is true for us. The previous one is now false. What one experiences may not be what is experienced by the world in general, but that may well be truer. (Ven. Nanananda)

“I hope, Anuruddha, that you are all living in concord, with mutual appreciation, without disputing, blending like milk and water, viewing each other with kindly eyes.” (MN 31)

starter wrote: Nibbana is the unconditioned, in which "I" and "exist" don't apply at all. The unconditioned should not be confused with the conditioned.

You still talk about "the unconditioned" as if there were some thing to be called "the unconditioned."

I don't think that necessarily follows from what starter has said. Do you perceive starter is reifying "the unconditioned"?

Metta,Retro.

Well, the expression "the unconditioned" is, at best clumsy, and tends to be misleading, as if there were some thing existing out there that is "the unconditioned" or "the unborn" or "the deathless."

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++++++++++++++++This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

There is freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning. If there were not this freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning, then escape from that which is birth, becoming, making, conditioning, would not be known here. -- Ud 80

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

I came across DN 15 today and found the following teaching relevant to our discussion here. Just to share with you.

DN 15:

"If anyone were to say with regard to a monk whose mind is thus released that 'The Tathagata exists after death' is his view, that would be mistaken; that 'The Tathagata does not exist after death'... that 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death'... that 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death' is his view, that would be mistaken.

Why? Having directly known the extent of designation and the extent of the objects of designation, the extent of expression and the extent of the objects of expression, the extent of description and the extent of the objects of description, the extent of discernment and the extent of the objects of discernment, the extent to which the cycle revolves: Having directly known that, the monk is released [from that -- all the conditioned phenomena].

["If anyone were to say that] 'The monk released, having directly known that, does not see, does not know' is his view,' that would be mistaken.-- Unlike the four earlier views, which are wrongly attributed to the released one because they don’t apply to the unconditioned, this fifth view might lead to the supposition that the released does not see, does not know in nibbana due to the annihilation of consciousness; however, having directly known his release indicates such an nihilistic view is wrong as well. The description of what he comes to know in the course of gaining release shows that this supposition is inappropriate. He does know, he does see, but what he knows and sees is the unconditioned which is beyond mundane experience.

I was also pondering about birth and death this morning. To my understanding, so called birth and death concern only the association and disassociation of vinnana with nama and rupa, or the arising and passing away of the five aggregates (all are the conditioned phenomena). Birth and death cannot concern the unconditioned at all.

By the way, please don't be afraid to point out my mistakes if you notice any wrong views or inappropriate speech/actions from me, big or small. Your kind help would always be appreciated.

These two Nibbana-elements were made known By the Seeing One, stable and unattached:

One is the element seen here and now With residue, but with the cord of being destroyed;The other, having no residue for the future, Is that wherein all modes of being utterly cease.

Having understood the unconditioned state,Released in mind with the cord of being destroyed,They have attained to the Dhamma-essence. Delighting in the destruction (of craving),Those stable ones have abandoned all being."

-- § 44. The Nibbana-element {Iti 2.17; Iti 38}

"When I had learnt of the undying state (nibbana), the unconditioned, through the instruction of the Tathagata, the Unrivalled One, I was highly and well restrained in the precepts and established in the Dhamma taught by the most excellent of men, the Awakened One." ... When I knew the undefiled, the unconditioned, taught by the Tathagata, the Unrivalled One, I then and there experienced the calm concentration (of the noble path). That supreme certainty of release was mine." -- Sirima: Sirima's Mansion [http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/vv/vv.1.16.irel.html]

I just wanted to say that comprehending what nibbana is useful, to avoid what it is not. But it is not helpful in the sense that we can drive ourselves there if we know what it is. The manifestation of the unconditioned happens when it wants to- all we can do, as the simile suggests, is to sit on the egg until it cracks on it's own. All we can do is to give rise to moments of experience filled with faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration and insight. Attainment must happen on it's own.

With insight, hacking away at avijja, the nirodha (cessation) aspect of the DO starts. Aggregates start fading from the mind. Then at one point the mind is fully released. It knows subsequently that it was released. The four noble truths (having realised nibbana, being certain of the path to get there) is fully experientially penetratively understood in a single moment (almost.. metaphorically speaking).

Bhikkhus, who is the person with a mind comparable to lightning? Bhikkhus, a certain person knows, as it really is, this is unpleasant, this is the arising of unpleasantness, this is its cessation and this is the path leading to the cessation of unpleasantness. Just as a man would see forms in pitch darkness when there is lightning. In the same manner a certain person knows as it really is, this is unpleasant, this is the arising of unpleasantness, this is the cessation of unpleasantness and this is the path leading to the cessation of unpleasantness.

This is why the second of the four noble truths is the D-origination and the third on is D-cessation. Removing craving for the aggregates, at it's deepest, is synonymous with it fading from 'sight' experientially.

"Monks, that dimension should be known where the eye (vision) stops and the perception (mental noting) of form fades. That dimension should be known where the ear stops and the perception of sound fades... where the nose stops and the perception of aroma fades... where the tongue stops and the perception of flavor fades... where the body stops and the perception of tactile sensation fades... where the intellect stops and the perception of idea/phenomenon fades: That dimension should be known."

As Ajahn Sujato notes, the word "sara" was simply transliterated into its Chinese homophones (薩羅), instead of being translated. Perhaps this hesitation to render the meaning is evidence to back-up Gombrich's thesis that "sara" might have been understood to mean "word" instead of "stream", and the translator decided to be ambiguous.

First let's look at MN 111:"Again, bhikkhus, by completely surmounting the base of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered upon and abided in the cessation of perception and feeling. And his taints were destroyed by his seeing with wisdom.-- this "seeing with (supramundane) wisdom" occurring during the cessation of perception and feeling is not through mind consciousness [which is inseparable from perception and feeling] and is beyond the aggregates.

Indeed this transcendental awareness of the arahants (when dwelling in the cessation of perception and feeling) is not consciousness or the aggregate of consciousness. At first I was a bit confused by the consciousness in DO [so called "stream of consciousness"], which is separated from nama and rupa. Recently I realized that the defiled mind in samsara is no longer the "calm water" but the "stormy water", which appears as consciousness. As long as still in samsara, when the defiled mind/consciousness has separated from one set of aggregates upon one death in one realm, with more or less defilements it will successively gain another set of aggregates in the same or different realm. And the defiled mind/consciousness is always changing in samsara so the Buddha taught us it's not the same consciousness. Only when the mind becomes liberated from the defilements, it'll no longer generate consciousness (the consciousness will no longer be established) and become the "calm water" without waves. The translation of "unestablished consciousness" of the dead arahants is misleading to me. It's probably better to be translated as "with consciousness not established" .

First let's look at MN 111:"Again, bhikkhus, by completely surmounting the base of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered upon and abided in the cessation of perception and feeling. And his taints were destroyed by his seeing with wisdom.-- this "seeing with (supramundane) wisdom" occurring during the cessation of perception and feeling is not through mind consciousness [which is inseparable from perception and feeling] and is beyond the aggregates.

Indeed this transcendental awareness of the arahants (when dwelling in the cessation of perception and feeling) is not consciousness or the aggregate of consciousness. At first I was a bit confused by the consciousness in DO [so called "stream of consciousness"], which is separated from nama and rupa. Recently I realized that the defiled mind in samsara is no longer the "calm water" but the "stormy water", which appears as consciousness. As long as still in samsara, when the defiled mind/consciousness has separated from one set of aggregates upon one death in one realm, with more or less defilements it will successively gain another set of aggregates in the same or different realm. And the defiled mind/consciousness is always changing in samsara so the Buddha taught us it's not the same consciousness. Only when the mind becomes liberated from the defilements, it'll no longer generate consciousness (the consciousness will no longer be established) and become the "calm water" without waves. The translation of "unestablished consciousness" of the dead arahants is misleading to me. It's probably better to be translated as "with consciousness not established" .

Metta to all,

Starter

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++++++++++++++++This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

There is freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning. If there were not this freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning, then escape from that which is birth, becoming, making, conditioning, would not be known here. -- Ud 80

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

Then Ven. Ananda went to Ven. Sariputta and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Sariputta, "Friend Sariputta, could a monk have an attainment of concentration such that he would neither be percipient of earth with regard to earth, nor of water with regard to water, nor of fire... wind... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception ... this world... nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet he would still be percipient?"

"Yes, friend Ananda, he could..."

"But how, friend Sariputta, could a monk have an attainment of concentration such he would neither be percipient of earth with regard to earth... nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet he would still be percipient?"

"Once, friend Ananda, when I was staying right here in Savatthi in the Blind Man's Grove, I reached concentration in such a way that I was neither percipient of earth with regard to earth... nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet I was still percipient."

"But what, friend Sariputta, were you percipient of at that time?"

"'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding — the cessation of becoming — Unbinding': One perception arose in me, friend Ananda, as another perception ceased. Just as in a blazing woodchip fire, one flame arises as another flame ceases, even so, 'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding — the cessation of becoming — Unbinding': [u]One perception arose in me as another one ceased[/U]. I was percipient at that time of 'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding.'"

As I understand from this sutta, the concentration Ven. Sariputta attained here is the highest attainment "the cessation of perception and feeling", since all the other possible types of formless concentration (including neither perception nor feeling) are excluded. What ceased in this attainment is only the cessation of perception of five aggregates; as this mundane perception ceases, another transcendental perception arises during the concentration, which is the perception of 'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding', nibbana. Therefore, it appears to me that in MN 111 "And his taints were destroyed by his seeing with wisdom" occurs during (not after) the concentration of the cessation of perception and feeling, which is probably also the "unrestricted awareness" that the Buddha described in the following sutta:

AN 10.81:"I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying in Campa, on the shore of Gaggara Lake. Then Ven. Bahuna went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, freed, dissociated, & released from how many things does the Tathagata dwell with unrestricted awareness?"

Freed, dissociated, & released from ten things, Bahuna, the Tathagata dwells with unrestricted awareness. Which ten? Freed, dissociated, & released from form, the Tathagata dwells with unrestricted awareness. Freed, dissociated, & released from feeling... Freed, dissociated, & released from perception... Freed, dissociated, & released from volitions... Freed, dissociated, & released from consciousness... Freed, dissociated, & released from birth... Freed, dissociated, & released from aging... Freed, dissociated, & released from death... Freed, dissociated, & released from stress... Freed, dissociated, & released from defilement, the Tathagata dwells with unrestricted awareness.

"Just as a red, blue, or white lotus born in the water and growing in the water, rises up above the water and stands with no water adhering to it, in the same way the Tathagata — freed, dissociated, & released from these ten things — dwells with unrestricted awareness."

As we can see from the above quoted sutta, the Tathagata dwelling with "unrestricted awareness" is freed, dissociated, and released from consciousness (the aggregate of consciousness) as well as from the death, so there is indeed another type of undefiled/undeceptive, unrestricted, undying/unborn, sorrowless awareness in living arahants, occurring during the cessation of perception and feeling (as the aggregate consciousness ceases), but it's not the aggregate of consciousness.

Metta to all,

Starter

Last edited by starter on Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:51 am, edited 1 time in total.