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Interview with Arnold Ong
The date today is April 20, 1991. My name is Jerry Abbitt. I will be interviewing Arnold Ong of Glendale, [Arizona].
JA: Why don’t you start with what brought you and your family to Glendale.
AO: Well, I was born in China. My father [Gene H.] was here in Phoenix. We came over to the United States in 1934. I was four years old at the time. We lived in Phoenix; he [my father] had a little grocery store in Phoenix.
JA: Where was that at?
AO: Well, it’s no longer there. It was 901 West Hadley in Phoenix. It’s a housing project now. I guess he started the grocery store in 1930, probably. Then he bought the two lots in Glendale on West Glendale Avenue. We built a store there in 1940, and we moved to Glendale in 1940. There’s still a Gene’s Market there on 60th [Avenue] and Glendale Avenue. [I] went to grade school in Glendale, graduated from Glendale Elementary School. Went to High School down there on West Glendale Avenue and graduated from there, and went to college for a couple of years. Then my dad passed away, and I took the store and have been there 32 years. He passed away in 1950, and I had to take the store over. I finally sold the store and retired in 1983. So, I’ve been living in Glendale ever since.
JA: When you first, okay, you grew up in Glendale, so…
AO: Yeah. Well, I moved to Glendale in 1940. I was ten years old at the time. So, I’ve been there 51 years.
JA: Was Glendale, in your childhood memories, a peaceful place for you to be?
AO: Yes, it was quiet. It was a quiet farming town, community. Most of the farmers cone in on the weekend, you know Friday and Saturday and Sunday. They more or less do their shopping, go to a movie, or stay at the park down there, downtown there. That’s how I remember it.
JA: So your business boomed on the weekends probably?
AO: Yes. Because most of your farmers would come in with their trucks and bring their family in the pickup truck; and they more or less stay[ed] in town for the whole day, you know, from morning until… They do their shopping; they buy their clothes, maybe get their hair cut, go to a movie, then go home.
JA: Tell me, how did the Glendale residents welcome the Chinese residents?
AO: Well, as you know, back in the – matter-of-fact in the 1930s and 1940s, -- we were restricted that we can’t own property. If you weren’t a citizen, you cannot own property at that time. I think my dad by passed that by having somebody else which was a citizen of the United States buy the two lots he built on. Then later, after the war [World War II], well, he became a naturalized citizen. Therefore, they transferred the property to its rightful owner, which was my father at the time. But then, there was some discrimination at the time. Even back in 1950, we bought a home on Northern [Avenue]; and there were discriminations, you know.
JA: Help me understand that. Give me some illustrations of how that manifested itself.
AO: Well, okay. Back in those days I remember after my dad passed away, I think a couple of years after that, we used to live behind the store. We had a little apartment built right next to the store there. So, I decided to move away from the store, and buy a home on Northern [Avenue]. And, matter-of-fact, there was a Mexican family that bought in the area. The realtor that sold them the house, the whole town was in an uproar because he sold to a Mexican up there. When we bought it, you know, we had to more or less feel [out] the neighborhood to find out if it was acceptable or not. Back in those days, I guess, if you’re a minority they could refuse to sell you the property [if] they want[ed] to at the time. Which is illegal now. The Congress passed a law which is, it’s illegal to do such a thing today.
JA: Did the Sings have a similar problem?
AO: Well, the Sings lived down there where the old store is. They have a house behind there. So it was primarily in what you call a Mexican town, that area. And they have no trouble there. But, the George [Sing], Sr. finally passed away probably about… He was in his 90s when he passed away. Junior [George Sing] lives across the street from where I’m living right now.
JA: Oh, do they really?
AO: Yeah, uh-huh.
JA: Okay.
AO: So evidently, I guess right after the war [World War II], the racial barrier kind of came down. Then anybody could buy a home any place in town. I remember there was a Doctor Y. Miyauchi, he’s dead now, a Japanese doctor, I know he had to build a home west of the tracks. He couldn’t build a home east of the tracks.
JA: Do you remember what time period that was?
AO: That was in the [late] 1940s. I used to go to him, and he used to tell me that the reason he had to build west of the tracks was because they would not allow him to build east of the tracks. You know, where Grand Avenue separates.
JA: Did he ever say it was specifically because he was Japanese?
AO: Right. Uh-huh. That’s it.
JA: Were there other residents in Glendale besides your family and the Sings?
AO: Oh, yeah. There were a lot of Japanese families there, you know. Most of them went to these camps. I knew quite a few of them; their parents were taken away and put in these relocation camps. That’s what they called them at the time.
JA: How did you and your family respond to that? Especially since you were minorities as well as they were. Was there any…
AO: Well, we probably kept a low profile. Matter-of-fact, during the war [World War II] no Japanese was supposed to be west of the tracks, Grand Avenue. We had to post in our store that we were Chinese-Americans. It was hard to tell between the Japanese and the Chinese at the time. The Japanese had to sell their farms because they had to give up everything. I guess that’s why, I think this last year, Congress passed a law that reimbursed them so much per person for putting them in these relocation centers.
JA: Did you have some friends that were personally in those camps?
AO: Not really, because I didn’t know them that well because I was only ten years old at the time. You know, ten, eleven years old. But I do here that some of the people that came back, you know, they lost their farm. Sold it for a couple hundred dollars an acre or fifty dollars an acre, whatever. They were forced to sell their land because they were placed in these camps, relocation camps.
JA: Difficult, huh?
AO: Yeah.
JA: As a high school student at Glendale High, how involved were you socially with the other high school students?
AO: Well, at that time there was discriminations socially. I played football there, and I got active with different clubs. But from the social angle, you know, compared to today and back in the 1940s, it’s like day and night.
JA: How so?
AO: Well, I would say none of the minority would date other girls. There were no Chinese girls or Oriental girls. I think there were only one or two Hispanics, I would say, that were dating white girls. At the time that was really something. Not compared to now you see them arm and arm down the street, and even Colored guys are doing that. Back in those days there no Colored students in Glendale hardly. There were, for the four years I was there, no Colored students at all. Matter-of-fact, I don’t think there were any Colored families in Glendale. They didn’t show up until later. A few families moved into the Glendale area. Matter-of-fact, you don’t see too many Colored kids down here.
JA: Yeah, that’s true. I’ve driven around quite a bit and haven’t seen very many.
AO: So I guess this Glendale area is taboo to them. I don’t know if they discourage them to come in.
JA: It’s interesting that Glendale has such an aura of being peaceful, and yet there’s that underlying turbulence in terms of the ethnic…
AO: You know, most of your Orientals are really low-key. They don’t complain much. The only way they complain is, “By God I’ll show them that I can do better than you can.” Maybe not socially, but financially they strive for higher goals. I don’t know about the Hispanics, but it seems like the Hispanics are probably taking over Glendale. I can see the trend from at one time on 59th Avenue, the dividing line. All the Mexicans were supposed to stay on the east side of that by the railroad tracks. It’s gradually coming up. They’re getting further and further north, as I seen them through my 50 years in Glendale, which is fine. If they can afford to move into a better neighborhood, more power to them. But at one time, I know, the old city folks tried to keep them in a certain area.
JA: In their community. Now, I had heard that in the elementary school for a reason there was a Mexican elementary school that would feed in.
AO: Yes, that’s on Grand Avenue.
JA: Did they have similarly situations for the Japanese and Chinese?
AO: No.
JA: So you were integrated within the white school?
AO: Yes, I went to the white school, all right. The reason they had the school on Grand [Avenue], I think it’s Isaac Imes. Matter-of-fact, he was my shop teacher, Isaac Imes. They claim that they were slow learners, that’s why they put them down there. I guess because of their language barrier. Mostly your Mexican family speaks Spanish in their home, and they have a hell of a time you know. I guess that’s why they have bilingual [classes] now. Try to help them along to catch up with a bilingual setup. But back in those days, you take a little Mexican kid that never spoke English at home, you put him in a grade school and all they’d do is speak English, why he’s lost.
JA: Yeah, very difficult transition. What was your house and home like? Did you have a lot of Oriental customs?
AO: Custom-wise, I would say there actually weren’t too many customs, except the way we were brought up. What do you mean by custom, now?
JA: Whether that would be in your language. Did you speak Chinese?
AO: Well, my mother spoke Chinese. But, she passed away when I was ten years old. My dad passed away when I was 20. We spoke English. Because he was educated in the United States. We conversed in the English language. There are certain customs that we still go by, you know. We still respect the elders. We call them by classification by their age. It’s a real complicated system that the Chinese have if you’re born in a certain period. The next time frame that you’re born in, you would show respect to this other time frame. The first time frame you call them, I think, Uncle. If it’s a little older you call them brother, no brother than uncle. And then I think Great-uncle. If they are really old, you respect them like a grandparent.
JA: Is that being continued today with your children?
AO: Yes, they are. But with the new generations, they’re losing it. They’re losing it pretty fast. The old-timers still try to give you a Chinese name that fits within your time frame.
JA: So, what is your name right now in the Chinese New Year?
AO: Well, my time frame is Hawk. I can go to Los Angeles, [California] and they’d be some Hawks. Another thing the Chinese use is like your mother. You call her grandparents a completely different name than the grandparents on your father’s side. So, in other words, when you call one of your grandparents it tells you which side, on your mother’s side or on your father’s side.
JA: I’ll be. So it’s a whole different classification.
AO: Yeah. In other words, your dad’s father they call a “yeh.” Your mother’s father would “goon.” “Goon” and “yeh.” In other words, they mean grandparents. This is grandparents on my mother’s side; this is the grandparents on my father’s side. Same thing with the great-grandmothers.
JA: So there is clear identification.
AO: When you call your grandparent, they know exactly of it’s on your father’s side or your mother’s side.
JA: In your home, did you maintain Chinese cuisine and those kinds of things, or did you basically Americanize your diets and clothing and all of that?
AO: It’s a combination of them. As far as food is concerned. We dress like they do here. All dress American when they’re in public.
JA: It would be pretty hard from the outside to say, “Here’s somebody that’s trying to maintain the old customs?”
AO: You can’t tell, uh-huh.
JA: I’m glad you haven’t given up Chinese food. It’s my favorite. How’ bout if you could give me a sense of the Chinese residents that were in Glendale. What were you like as a social structure or as a community? Did you do things together, and what kinds of things?
AO: When I was young, when I was between ten and twenty years old and my father was alive, we were in contact with pretty near every family in the Valley.
JA: Every Chinese family in the Valley?
AO: Yeah, more or less, they knew each other. Now they’re completely strangers to me. The population has increased so much. They’re people that come in from different parts of China. The Northern Chinese are coming here. Right after the war [World War II], a lot of other people from different parts of China had moved into this area. Basically, back in the 1920s, 1930s and 1940s the crux of the Chinese population was from the Canton area. It’s funny how they used to do that. As soon as one family would move in here, start a little business and become successful, they’d write back and say, “Hey, we’re doing fine! Come on Over!” All of the Ongs and the Tangs are the same family here.
JA: Oh, really?
AO: I would day 20 years ago, 90% of the families here were from the same family. But since the war [World War II] different people come in. Now there are a lot of Koreans and Vietnamese which you can’t tell if they’re Chinese or whatever. Matter-of-fact, your Korean and Vietnamese have taken over most of the Chinese grocery stores. They’re very few Chinese grocery stores now. I think I read an article back in the 1940s that there were about 200 or 300 stores, Chinese papa-mama stores in the Valley here. Right now you probably have not over 40 or 50, or maybe less than that now.
JA: I’ll be. Why was it that the Chinese developed grocery stores?
AO: They were merchants, see. All right. See, most of your Chinese that came from Canton were the poorer class. They were having a hard time in their homeland, and they had to go to the United States to try to get a new start. All right, so this is how. After two or three generations, like my kids, everyone went through college. They don’t want the grocery stores. The hours are long, and you work seven days a week. They’d rather get a job working with some big company five days a week, and work 40 hours and time and a half for overtime.
JA: Is that pretty well across the board now; the third generation are all dispersed?
AO: Yeah, they’re getting higher education. They’re engineers and doctors and, before you know it like my father. He had a year, I think, of college. But, back in those days the opportunity was not there. There is more opportunity for your minority people right now.
JA: Where did you do your college work?
AO: I went to ASU [Arizona State University].
JA: How were you received at ASU?
AO: I was received fine. I went there in the late 1940s and, like I went about a year and a half. Then my dad became ill and I had to take over the business. He passed away in 1950. I had that store from 1950 until 1983, so 32, 33 years.
JA: I’m going to do two different things now with the store itself. First of all, compare for me the store of 1930 or 1940 to when you sold it. How was it different? What changed?
AO: Well, the change. All right, the change in 1940 we moved. We were just as good as anybody else. I mean, we were comparable at the time and just a little smaller than a Safeway, which had about 2000 or 3000 square feet. I finally enlarged it to about 6000 square feet when I sold it. Then your population changed, like I say. Your Mexican population in Glendale started moving, started moving east. I meant started moving north, started moving east. All right. Matter-of-fact, from 1940 [un]til when I sold the store, I would have as the years passed less white customers. Because of the Mexicans moving into that area, even my inventory changed. You know, you start catering to the Mexican demands of different things in the store. You just don’t have a complete line of groceries for everybody. The next thing you know, certain things a Mexican likes you start stocking more and more.
JA: What kinds of things would that be?
AO: Well, you stock menudo. You sell more menudo. You sell more chuck steaks than you do T-bone steaks. You sell more Chorizo. Your meat line changes. They start wanting beef heads, pork heads, your tongue, your livers and your kidneys. They eat more of that stuff than most of your American[s].
JA: Different cuts. Okay, now take me back into the 1940s store and, as if you were using a camcorder, show me around the store. What would I see in your store?
AO: Well, we had a complete line of everything that an average housewife would go anywhere and find. All right. Today, an average, white housewife who would go in there, probably couldn’t find what she wants. Back in those days, when I had the store, I tried to have a complete line of everything. If you come in and want this, we got it. But right now, the store I have right now, you can go in there and say, “Hey, we don’t carry it no more.”
JA: So you would carry everything from meats to cheeses to cleaning products, dog food and…
AO: A complete store at the time. There were no imports of Mexican products like they do now, you know. Some stores like Southwest Store right now advertise Hispanics. They cater to those people, which is good. They make good money on the minority people. Your markup is twice as much as your well-advertised products.
JA: How did the war affect your dad’s business?
AO: Well, it didn’t affect it at all. Matter-of-fact, we can’t get enough of certain things because of the shortage during the war. We had, we had to go to the wholesale house and fight for our cigarettes, our Jell-O’s, and those were considered luxury. Something with sugar in it. I remember [a] banana was hard to get. Tea was hard to get. We used to hide the stuff in the back, and when our regular customer wanted it we’d give it them. Someone that’d come in we don’t know “em, “I’m sorry, we don’t have it for you.”
JA: (Laughter) Where did you buy your meats? Was that local?
AO: Local, yes, local. At the time there were several meat packing plants that sprung up, and went under during the war [World War II]. They used food stamps at the time, food coupons. For a pound of hamburger so many red points; then if you buy a can of corn you got blue points. When you get checked out, you have to add the red points for meat and the blue points for your groceries. You got a sugar coupon, you got a shoe coupon and everything else.
JA: Make sure that everybody lines up with the coupons.
AO: Your gas rationing at the time, you got A, B and C cards.
JA: During that war period with all of the rationing cards, as the business-owner how much flexibility did you allow your customers? Was it a very rigid system?
AO: Well, the government issued a bulleting every so often. I’ve forgotten the time frame, whether it was every week or every month. When a can of corn this month is worth say ten points, ten blue points, maybe next month they can jump it to 15 or reduce it down to five or eight. Then we deposit our stamps, just like we do money into the bank. When we bought groceries, we wrote a check for ration points. For the groceries and for the meat and for the sugar.
JA: So, it almost traded like money then?
AO: Yeah. If you don’t have it, you can’t buy it.
JA: Now you were ten or 11 when the war started?
AO: Yeah, about ten when it started and it was through when I was 14 in 1945.
JA: Did you work in your Dad’s store?
AO: Yes.
JA: How often and what kinds of jobs did you do in the store?
AO: Well. I did everything, you know. Way back then we had to sort bottles, you know, soda pop bottles. We didn’t have these cans. Everything was deposit. You do that, you help stock, you sweep. Anything that needed to be done, you do it. You stock the shelves if you’re capable, and you know how. You put the fresh milk up in the shelf from your walk-in and all sorts of things.
JA: Did you work after school? And then during the summers full time?
AO: Yes.
JA: As business owners in Glendale, how did the community leadership role affect your family? As a business leader, did you have a role in shaping the community in those kinds of decisions?
AO: Well, not really. We were minority, that’s the first thing my dad taught me. “Son, you’re a minority. Anything you do bad will reflect on all your people, all the Chinese. So, when you go out and do something, it had better be good and not bad. Because if you do something bad, they gonna say all the Chinese are like that.” That was pounded into me. So therefore, I would say that I would be hesitant to be aggressive; afraid I might say the wrong things or do the wrong thing that would reflect, not on my family, but the whole Chinese race. As time goes on, it changes. I mean it’s changed now. Like my kids – the hell with you, I’ll do as I please! That’s just like a normal, average American kid.
JA: They’re truly American now. How do you understand that shift? That separation from who you were and are, to becoming American like that?
AO: Your civil rights, I guess, had a lot to do with it. When it comes right down to it, you know. As I see it though these years, your social status as a minority has been improved and more or less accepted more now, than they did 20 or 30 years ago. Legally, we got just as much right as anybody else; but socially there is still a long way to go. Or some ways to go, maybe not that long, but there’s still some…
JA: …room for growth. Looking at your family in the 1940s, what did you do for social fun together?
AO: Okay, social fun. There were not too much social funs.
JA: All work, huh?
AO: All work. The Chinese community would get together on holidays. They’d probably have a get together like the 4th of July. We do most of our social visiting after hours. After the store closes, which in those days in nine, ten o’clock. We’d visit till about midnight and then that was it. Where we’d go as far as [to] take a movie. Someone get married, there would be a banquet, then they’d sort of get together; or if someone died, there’s a funeral.
JA: Yeah, right. It sound to me like the length between Phoenix and Glendale, let me rephrase that. Because you were Chinese in the Valley, it was your nationality that brought you together, as opposed to being in Phoenix or Glendale.
AO: Right, uh-huh.
JA: Whereas for the rest of Glendale it was, “I’m from Glendale.” For you it’s, “I’m Chinese.”
AO: Yeah, that’s correct.
JA: Is that accurate?
AO: Yeah, that’s pretty accurate. Back in those days. But, not today. We’re just like everybody else.
JA: Not quite like everybody else, but a cut above, right?
AO: I don’t know; we try to be. See that’s the only way we can fight back. By God, you know, if you look down on us we’re gonna show you. We don’t work eight hours a day, we’re going to work 16 hours a day to get ahead. That’s the key to the whole thing. Matter-of-fact, I want to give you a real good illustration. You know, Thunderbird Bank in Glendale? All right. There was a gentleman that was one of the officers of the bank, which I got to be real close to. We bummed around together and ran around socially. We’d go out and eat together. As he drove home one day, he said, “Arnold, you’ve got a pretty nice house. George Sing across the street has got a nice house. And down the street was Dr. Kon that had a nice house.” He said, “How in the hell do you guys do it?” His name was Bob. I said, “Bob its simple. If you and your wife both work 16 hours a day, after 20 or 30 years, that’s how you earn it.” He said, “God, I can’t think of any person that can work over 40 hours a week. I don’t think a body should be able to go over 40 hours a week.��
JA: But you did it and that’s how…
AO: We did it okay. I’ll tell you, I was there in that store 32 years. We opened the store every day. The only day we closed was Christmas for 32 years.
JA: And you were there every day?
AO: We were there, either one of my family was there or I’m there. The store remained open seven days a week, 364 days a year.
JA: When did it open; when did it close?
AO: We opened back in those days at eight o’clock in the morning and closed at nine o’clock at night.
JA: Did that change as time went on?
AO: From nine to nine.
JA: Nine to nine, okay. (Laughter) Wow! Tell me something about your wife. We had talked about you and I’ve gotten your perspective on all of this. Is your wife of the same clan?
AO: Well, my wife [Louise] is from California. Their family was in the wholesale produce business. Matter-of-fact, the way we met was George Sing’s granddaughter – no, George Sing’s daughter – got married. I was invited to the wedding and she came in to the wedding here in Phoenix. That’s how we met.
JA: I’ll be. When was this?
AO: That was back in 1955, 1956. We got married, I think, in 1956 or 1957. That’s what? Thirty-some years.
JA: Did she work in your store with you or did she have an outside job?
AO: Oh, yeah, she worked right along with me all these years. All 32 – well, not quite 30. Well, 20-some years.
JA: So her story is interlinked in much the same with yours. As a woman, she is Chinese?
AO: Yes, uh-huh.
JA: As a woman, Chinese, did she suffer any ills other that what maybe you did as a man in the community?
AO: We didn’t socialize too much, but she did more than I did. You know, she’s form L.A. [Los Angeles, California] I think the social, as far as the minority’s concerned, is a little more lax in L.A. than back here in Arizona. I mean they were a little more carefree about it, see.
JA: How was she different than you? What did she do? Was she part of women’s groups?
AO: She joined the women’s club, you know, like the Glendale Women’s Club. She got to be active in different things, but yet she still was tied down to the store. She still had to work. She was there seven days of the week just like I am.
JA: Okay, um, I’m real interested in this linkage between Hispanics, which are a minority group, the Chinese that are a minority group, the Japanese that are a minority group and the Russians that are a minority group.
AO: Well, we had quite a few Russian customers at the time because they were mostly west of Glendale, you know, West Glendale [Avenue] from 67th, 75th and 81st [Avenues]. That was all Russians. As far as I’m concerned, they’d come in and shop and I had no trouble with them. I mean, they seemed to be nice people. I’m sure they probably feel some discrimination also because everyone their name in “—off.” (Laughter) I went to school and played ball with them and everything else and we got along very well.
JA: Would you mix socially?
AO: No, as a matter-of-fact, we didn’t mix socially at all. I didn’t mix socially at all with them. None whatsoever during high school at the time frame that I was going. It’s changing now. I can see my kid go to dances. They’ll go out and have fun, or go our picnicking. All sorts of things.
JA: Do you remember the dances that were sponsored by the Women’s Club?
AO: Ah, no. Hell, I couldn’t even get a date back in those days, you know.
JA: You would ask the white girls and they wouldn’t go?
AO: Sorry, no. But after a couple of times, you know, the situation.
JA: There was really just your family and the Sings in Glendale? [Also the Tangs.]
AO: Yeah. Lot of Japanese there at the time. The Tanitas were there I remember.
JA: That raises an interesting perspective. Did the Asian minorities socially mix, as opposed to, say, the Hispanics and the Asians?
AO: No.
JA: So even the Japanese you didn’t mix with?
AO: Not too much, no. that was during the war period…
JA: Well, that’s true.
AO: They were considered your enemy.
JA: If you would’ve associated with the, then you might have…
AO: Later on, you, know, I did associate with quite a few of the Japanese. Some of them came out and even expressed surprise that I would associate with them. On account of the way, you know. The Chinese and the Japanese war. Back in those days, they thing you held it against us. I said, “No, you had nothing to do with it.”
JA: Fascination, you spoke of the Saturday nights. As a young person, did you resent the fact that everybody else was coming together on Saturdays to shop and have fun; and you were having to work?
AO: No, I don’t think so. Nothing like that crossed my mind. We were taught, hey, this is the time to make some money. The people are in town and we’re going to sell some groceries.
JA: Opportunity knocks.
AO: Opportunity. This is what I think is your home environment: how a family is brought up the way it should think. It’s all business, because we had to survive. We just can’t be horsing around. We have to survive. There’s no one to help you.
JA: The Chinese of Phoenix and other surrounding communities and Glendale, did all of you get together and do things socially?
AO: What I mean socially, is we visit each other. That’s about all.
JA: You’d go to their homes or they would come to your home?
AO: There were no such things as a gathering for a big dance, or something like that, or benefit or anything like that. It’s strictly visiting from home to home. One week you visit them and maybe the next week or two weeks from now they come to pay you a visit. That was about it.
JA: Okay. Pardon me for invading the home in this sense, but tell me when somebody would come and visit your house, what would happen? What kinds of interactions, food and things did you do?
AO: Well, um, like I said earlier, it was usually after business hours. We might serve, maybe a cake or coffee or soda pop. That’s about it.
JA: And then you would just talk for the evening?
AO: Well, the kids play, you know. You get to start playing with different kids and after an hour or so, time to go home.
JA: That’s interesting. Of course, that late at night that’s probably about all you had the energy for, too.
AO: That’s right, yeah. There were no TV’s at the time. There were no games, electronic games or computers to play with. It was strictly you sit there and the kids played. You maybe do a little gossiping or talk business and that was about it.
JA: Yeah, since all of you were, not all of you, but a large percentage of you were involved in the grocery business, I imagine there was some business chat.
AO: We’d compare notes, you know. Hey, I bought this at a certain warehouse that’s cheaper than this guy’s.
JA: Uh-huh, so it was helpful for the business end to be social in that way. When did TV come to Glendale in your mind?
AO: TV came to my mind in 1950. That was the first TV I saw when I was attending ASU and they made it, they assembled a TV there. Channel 5 was the first one that started TV in 1950 or 1949 in that area. That was the talk of the Valley. When you get a TV set.
JA: When did your family or even the Sings, get a TV?
AO: Well, I guess probably three or four years later. It was quite expensive at the time.
JA: Would you have considered that ahead of most of the white population or about the same time that most of them got them?
AO: Um, I would probably have guessed behind. We considered that a luxury. There were other more important things to use your money for. To put back in your business to make more money.
JA: As the post-war boom came and there was housing shortage in Glendale. All of those homes were being built. Did that affect your business, in adding prosperity to you; or because they moved into other areas, did it cause decline.
AO: It depends on how aggressive you are as far as your business is concerned. If you advanced with the time, you can pick up business, you know, more business. In my case, we remained pretty steady. We did enlarge two or three times the store; enlarge it and try to improve it. Put new equipment in, which you try to keep what you got and try to add a little more. If you don’t improve or remodel your store, you would have a tendency to lose business. Because of the new store that would come in every day or every year.
JA: I imagine the chain grocery stores had a great effect on…
AO: Oh yes, it really did. That’s why today, you don’t see no independents. Not only the minority people, generally the American independent grocery stores. There are very few in existence today. Everything is chain.
JA: That’s true. Okay. The last area that I want to ask you about is sort of politics. Have any of the Chinese in the Glendale area been involved in the political powers in Glendale?
AO: Well, I was on the council for a year, year and a half. City council.
JA: What time period was that?
AO: Nineteen sixties, for a year and a half. It affects your business.
JA: How so?
AO: If you’re on the council, every issue that comes before the council is not resolved by the lower departments. Therefore, when it gets there it’s really a controversial subject. You open your mouth and you vote for it, the people against it say, “You’re and S.O.B.” If you vote no, this other side says, “You’re a S.O.B.” You just can’t satisfy everybody when you’re in that certain position. I would recommend that if you’re a small businessman, don’t mix business with politics. It’s going to hurt you.
JA: It really stuck you, huh?
AO: I can show a decline in my business. Some guy will come in, “Hey, you son of a bitch, what’d you vote yes on that certain issue?” Hey, if you vote no, than the other guy jumps on you. You just can’t win.
JA: Are you the only one that had done that in terms of getting into the City Council?
AO: Well, in Glendale. I know Emmet Tang in Peoria has been a mayor there for quite a few years. Ten or 15, mayor and councilman or town councilman. Generally, most of your Chinese, I would say, are not politically active. They should be more active, you know.
JA: Why would that be?
AO: Well, I don’t know. Maybe they’d been a minority so much that they still feel the pressure. I don’t know.
JA: Wouldn’t they see this as an opportunity?
AO: Today some of these younger people are trying to enter the political arena on certain things. We were brought up to mind your own business. Attend to your business and don’t get involved.
JA: Let me ask you, just for the tape, to give me something about your dad and your mom in how they came to come to the Valley.
AO: Okay, the background, all right. My dad came over to the United States, I don’t know when. My grandfather was here. My grandfather was in the United States and he brought my dad over. He, matter-of-fact, went to high school in Utah, okay.
JA: Your dad did?
AO: My dad did. Utah. My dad had a brother in New York City, who was a Chinese school teacher. I think after high school, he went to New York. I think he told me he attended the Syracuse University of one year. While he attended, he worked as a waiter at the Chinese restaurant. The World War I came. All right. My grandfather, afraid that they’d draft him, sent him back to China.
JA: Oh, no kidding?
AO: He was a draft dodger, son of a gun. I guess that’s when he got married. Okay, they got married. He came back after the war to New York and worked in the restaurants. I was born and my brother was born in China. When I was four years old and my brother was fourteen, he sent for us. Okay, so we came over in 1934, there was a Mr. Harry Yen, which had a grocery store at 901 West Hadley. He retired, went back to China. He brought him over and he said, “Here���s the store.” He gave it to my dad.
JA: Gave it to him?
AO: No, not gave him. He said, “You owe me $4000.” Back in those days $4000. Was a lot of money. He said, “Don’t worry about the money, you just keep working. You’ll end up paying it.” Well, so he worked there for I don’t know how long, four or five years, then he sent for us in 1934. The whole family could come over. Meanwhile, the Japanese and the Chinese war broke out and this fellow that gave the store to my dad, came back over because of the war. Well, I lived in Phoenix form 1934 to 1940. Then we moved to Glendale.
JA: Okay. Your father, basically, sold the Phoenix business or he turned it back over to…
AO: No, he sold it to my cousin. My cousin took it over.
JA: What’s your cousin’s name?
AO: His name is Willy. Willy Ong. He passed away about ten years ago in San Francisco, [California]. Later on, the City of Phoenix Housing Project took over that whole area, so it’s no longer there.
JA: Now, the Japanese overran…
AO: China.
JA: Yeah, okay, Manchuria was 1931, China was 1934 or 1935, wasn���t it?
AO: Yeah, 1934 or 1935. They came about 1936 or 1937 from Manchuria south to Canton.
JA: So by 1936 or 1937 they were in your area and that’s when these folks came over? Do you know what brought the Sings over? Are they family with you?
AO: Yeah, they were here long before my dad got here, I’m pretty sure.
JA: My understanding is that they came in 1904. George, Sr. came in 1904, but that’s all I know.
AO: Yeah, 1904. Matter-of-fact when I was four, five, six years old, we drove to Glendale. That was a hell of a trip, you know, they were to lanes on Grand Avenue. We used to come and visit every once in a while. About once or twice a year. Then the old, Sr. used to drive into Phoenix for produce every week or every day, whenever he used to drop by the store. When my dad had it, because his father-in-law was three blocks away from the store. I remember him. I still remember him. I was five or six years old. First time I say lady finger grapes. You know, long grapes. He used to give me a handful. Your childhood memories.
JA: Sure, sweet memories.
AO: He was a fine old man. Matter-of-fact, I heard he was a Boy Scout leader when he was here in Glendale. He took quite a bit of pride with the Boy Scouts.
JA: No kidding. Were you involved with the Boy Scouts?
AO: No, I didn’t have time.
JA: Well, that’s true. You were working all the time.
AO: Yeah, I worked.
JA: Well, very good. I appreciate the time you’ve given me. What is your family’s religious affiliation as Chinese?
AO: Well, we’re Protestant. We belong to a Protestant Church. As a matter-of-fact we got to the Baptist Church in Phoenix, there’s three or four hundred churches now. They started over the past few years; four or five. They started with one church now they’ve got one on this side of town at 43rd [Avenue] and Greenway [Road], I think…
JA: Which Baptist are they?
AO: The Chinese Baptist.
JA: Chinese Baptist. I’ll be.
AO: Yeah, it’s on 43rd Avenue and Greenway [Road]. I think.
JA: You know, you just struck a chord with me. The Grace Brethren Poor Missionary Society had a mission in Canton in the 1930s. It just downed on me that that was how a I’d heard of Canton. Isn’t that interesting? I hadn’t made that connection.
AO: Okay, here’s another thing, maybe it’s kind of interesting. My dad came over to the United States as a merchant. Back in those days there was a quota for different ethnics; so many Oriental or Chinese can enter this country a year. When he brought me over, I became a son of a merchant. Right after War [II], Congress passed a bill that all of these people can apply for naturalization. So he got his papers, all right. My brother, he was over 21 at the time, he applied for and got his papers. But, there was not provision for me. Because I was a minor. According to Congress there were no laws to cover the 60 of us in the whole United States that were the minor offspring of a merchant. The parents became citizens, but we are a group that can’t qualify to become citizen. Matter-of-fact, [Governor Ernest] McFarland, a Senator at the time, had to pass a special bill in Congress to cover the 60 persons that were minors and not qualified to become citizen. They had to pass a bill so that when we became of age, either 16 or 18, we automatically would become citizens of the United States.
JA: So you didn’t have to go through the formal naturalization process?
AO: No, I didn’t. But I did have a, I did have a FBI check.
JA: Did you really?
AO: Yeah, I remember, not FBI, I mean Immigration. I remember customers around the asking, “What the hell did you do? They’re asking questions about you, you know?” I came to the United States through Seattle, Washington. When I applied with my brother for him to become a citizen, the Immigration Officer said, “Hey, you guys never left the country, have you?” I said, “Hell, yes, I’ve left the country.” So they got me there, you see. He said, “When did you leave the country?” I said, “Well, the last time I went was through a Colonel at Luke Field during the war.” He’d pick me up at the store and we’d go down to Nogales [Mexico], cross the line and get sugar.” Back in those days. My point of entry if officially Nogales, Arizona. I’m a Mexican, see? (Laughter)