OT: We the people?

As you should recall, the first time the embassy was seized
the Ayatollah send his 'Revolutionary Guard' to the embassy
where they secured the release of the hostages and a return
of the embassy to American Control.
It was not unreasonable to suppose, at first, that he could
be prevailed upon to do the same again. Only after weeks of
confusion and near anarchy did it become clear that the
Ayatollah was in control of the hostage takers.
No that is not appeasement. To appease someone you
have to give something to them.
Carter gave them nothing. Carter took from them, diplomatic
recogntion, military, economic, and educational aid, and
froze their financial assets in the US. He held military action
in reserve, to be used in the event the hostages were harmed.
Reagan's rhetoric implied that he would take military action
soon after taking office and this was most likely instrumental
in securing their release, as well as his election.
If you see any revisionism there, please point it out.

In exchange for the arms deal Hizbollah released two hostages
in Lebanon and (predictably) promptly kidnapped two more
to make up for them.
IF the object of the exercise was ransom and illegal
funding for the Contras an afterthought the arms deal
per se was merely bad policy.
If the object of the exercise was to raise money illegally
for Contras then the sale of arms to our enemies in Iran
was treason.

This is the lockeroom mentality that has sadly made the US a second
rate nation, and we are. CEO's all over the country publicly state
that fact daily. What is sad is we have a broadcast station founded
with the expressed intent of maintaining, and in fact fertilizing,
this delusional concept that individual fortitude has anything to do
with ones ability to gain, or hold, elected office in the US. Eight
years of this mentality, when tallied by history, will have retarded
our progress by 20 years, and that's if we are extremely lucky. It is
confirmed daily, from all sources, both sides, that we have been in an
overall state of decline for years. Some individual indicators have
been positive over this time but the overall has pointed to this
outcome clearly. However, only now, in the final hours, are both sides
admitting that they have seen these problem for quite some time and
are distancing themselves as best they can. Pathetic.
The system is rigged. Everyone on US soils knows it and has known it
for years but cash soothes all wounds. Even though this has been
grinding on the nerves of the US voter for the past 20 years the
soothing cash and the distraction of debt is too abundant to allow any
overwhelming change. Our electoral process has absolutely nothing to
do with moral conviction, perseverance, tenacity, or any form of
"calling". It has to do with cash and corporate connection. Our system
is setup to keep the average american numb through consumption and
debt resolution. For the average citizen there is no time for anything
other than those two things and that's the way the gvt. designed it.
What is truly pathetic, is that all who voted for GW should feel
completely comfortable in voting for HC. They are one in the same.
Hillary is more educated, more intelligent, has a better command of
the English language, can form full sentences, and conduct herself
better in press conferences and in public, but substantively they are
one in the same. They are party liners. It doesnt matter Dem or Repub.
they are US gvt. party liners. They will work endlessly to support the
current system, as it stands, til death, period. They will do this
because IT supports them. There will be no change between her and GW
other than subtle, trivial, policy issues. So cast your vote. They are
one in the same.
There is no conservative and liberal anymore. Our current spending
record for 7+ years has been liberal to say the least. We are broke.
Hillary's will likely be no different other than a few relatively
minor issues. What we need now, is a truly non government party to
compete with the (cliche) career politicians. Even if he/she is a
total novice. Who cares, we are in the hole and swirling around the
drain. Fresh meat, fresh blood, new perspective. Obama isnt even new.
Paul isnt new.
Mark

Second rate to whom? As the worlds wealthiest, most powerful, most
productive, most envied and feared power in the world I trust you must
believe in some alien super power we haven't heard about?
Are these the same CEO's that gave us Enron, the dot com collapse or
possibly the sub prime fiasco or way too many excesses to bother listing?
Rod

If you guys are going to continue this thread, then you better define
what it is you're measuring. What attributes make a first rate
country, i.e., education levels, per capita GDP, strength of currency,
percentage of people in poverty, etc. Then determine how the US
compares with the rest of the world. Anything else is nothing but
conjecture.

If you are going to define as percentage of people in poverty, you better
define what "poverty" mean. Being poor in the US is orders of magnitude
different from being poor in a 3rd world country and considerably different
than in some countries like Italy or France.

No shit!
The majority of poor people in the US own televisions and cars,
have access to food, emergency health care at the very least
and 12 years of school for their children.
Compared to my life, they have it rough and I don't mean
to minimize their difficulties. But our poor would be
middle class in the Sudan, Burma, or Haiti.

better
different
For some reason the picture that sticks in my mind going past the local
elementary school every morning sez it all: kids, in $120/pair basketball
shoes, bussed in early to take advantage of the free breakfast.
I certainly don't begrudge any kid a good meal, but there' something wrong
with that picture ... but even worse that it's PC to pretend not to notice,
or mention.

It tends to make one wonder, but...differences in eras. As a kid, we
got the high top Keds. The classier kids got some kind of fancy tennis
shoe that looks a lot like today's cross trainer (hey, nobody cross-
trained back then, you just ran, jumped, lifted weights and jumped
rope when you weren't swimming or walking). We tried and tried (my
brother and I) to get Mom to let us allow the Keds to get raggedy at
the toes and ankles, but she persisted in tossing the old ones and
buying new (under $1.50 a pair, IMS; we used to get our dress shoes,
after we grew enough, from true Army and Navy stores, true surplus,
for a buck a pair) no matter how broke we were.
It is an odd world today. I recall riding the train into Manhattan
with Mom when she decided a new sports jacket was my heaviest need.
Delancy Street, back then, was the center of the seconds from the rag
trade. As I recall, we paid about $8-9 for a $90 jacket that needed
the lining properly sewn in a couple places. I wonder if parents today
do that? Do kids today brag about it? I sure did.
Depression era parents did make a difference, I guess, especially when
you were growing up in the immediate postwar era.

Boy, somebody has been lapping up the propaganda the news media is trying to
force down everyone's throat. If we are the wealthiest, most powerful nation
then why are we held hostage by the few nations of OPEC and their control of
our oil importation? If we are the most productive, then why are all our
jobs going overseas?
Everybody rants and raves about this so-called economy stimulus package. How
is it going to stimulate "our" economy when most people will just run down
to Wally's world and buy something made in china?
Before I stray too much, those CEO's were probably the ones from Exxon
announcing record profits while our gas prices keep going higher and higher,
causing the little people lose more of that great American wealth.
wrote:

When? The normal message seems to quite to the contrary. When was the last
time you heard that we were the worlds largest exporter?

We specifically get most of our oil elsewhere, with Canada and Venezuela as
major suppliers...nonetheless the world itself is quite dependent on oil
since even at current price points it is the most economical energy
alternative available.....simply put certain Middle-East countries own a
valuable resource that the world deems worth buying.
Incidently medical cost inflation is a considerably worse short term
problem, with energy..... competition eventually plays a moderating role.
If we are the most productive, then why are all our

With less than a 5% unemployment rate "most jobs" might be a tad
overstated......approx. 20% of our jobs are manufacturing, obviously some of
those are quite sensitive to the radically lower wages of other countries.
Nonetheless we still export more product than any other country in the world
but we buy more as well.

Because the production cost/profit of a product is only a part(sometimes a
very small part) of the eventual retail price.....ports, trucking, warehouse
and retail are all domestic jobs.....and 80% of the economy has nothing to
do with manufacturing imports or otherwise.....
However no tax rebate can reasonably be expected to truly stop a actual
looming recession...they have happened like clockwork almost every 7-12
years for the past century and the sheer size of the economy dwarfs any $100
billion giveaway but under current circumstances it may delay the inevitable
stumble.

<http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/company_
level_imports/current/import.html>
In November 2007 we Canuckistanis were the #1 oil importer (both crude
and overall petroleum) to the US. We are not OPEC members.
Overall, the top 10 for November 2007 was:
Canada
Mexico
Saudi Arabia
Venezuela
Nigeria
Iraq
Russia
Algeria
Virgin Islands
Angola

ITYMTS exporter to, assuming you were writing in the
King's English and not some obscure Northern dialect.
And thank you very much for that oil, for protecting
our diplomats in Tehran, for fighting alongside us
in two World Wars, for harboring our dissidents
and fugitive slaves, and for keeping us supplied
with whiskey during prohibition.
The current high price of petroleum has made
extraction from Canadian oil sands economical.
I'm not sure whom to thank for that.

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