We dont do that around here. Actual real verifiable proof of rank and lineage is required on the Bullshido site.

We do not give the benifit of the doubt.

The original post was not about wether or not his samurai soke grand mastership was authentic at all. Your original assertion was that the book was shite because a ninja wrote a samurai book.

Originally Posted by Askari

But I was finally stopped by the self-evident confused of a "Ninja Grandmaster" writing a book about Samurai techniques.

So critical of his other 68 black belts or not, your original post even inplied it was a well researched lie because Hatsumi was only a ninja. Now you know that he claims to be a ninja, samurai, and gosh know what else, then feel free to discuss those claims.

You don't even know... This was one of the first, but definitely not the last, ninjas I've met in my life. A few years ago I had a few email exchanges withg Bussey and mentioned this guy's name. His response was that he had trained so many instructors over the years, that his name didn't ring a bell.

What makes this so remarkable, is the nin-rod that I knew in the navy claimed to have been given an authentic 700 year old katana direct from Bussey, and that he was one of only two to receive such an honor. So for Bussey to not know his name, either means the nin-rod was lying or he otherwise got ex-communicated and disowned. Then of course ninjas wouldn't do that, I guess they would just kill you off, especially if you're packing a one of a kind 700 year old katana.

Re-read my entire first post, there is one sentence about the ninja super soker creating a samurai book.

Now if that is what you want the thread to be about, we can do that. The book also claims that the author is a Dr, shall we go into that as well? Or would you rather use the search function?

And yes the book looks like a very well researched piece on Samurai work. Now, if his entire claim is full of crap, then this to is full of crap and being used as a smokescrean. However, if as Shinbushi has posted, there is a piece of legitimacy within the story there might be some worthwhile reading to this piece.

I for one would like to know if it is worth the money I am planning to shell out for it.

Edited to add, cause I dont want to wait for you to search it Hatsumi's Doctorate:

Among them are Honorary Doctorate degrees from the USA in Human Sciences and Philosophy

Hatsumi trained, gained accredation and practices as a traditional Japanese Osteopath for decades. This was his primary profession for a good portion of his life and somthing he continued to practice after the Ninja craze happened in the 80s.

Japanese Osteopathic medicine and the credentials for it do not exactly meet the same standard as a "Doctor of Osteopathy" (DO) does in the US meaning he probably couldn't practice in the States without some additional certification however by the Japanese system he is fully entitled to that "Dr."

Additionally while there is a certain amount of doubt about aspects of the arts Hatsumi learned from his teacher Takamatsu there is no doubt regarding either Hatsumi's or Takamastu's lineage to the Kukishinden arts. You can find out a good deal more about the Kukishinden and the various lineages, etc. related to it at

The whole "Ninja v. Samurai" thing is comic book nonsense. Japanese martial history is more compicated and less rigidly divided than that. If you feel like diving in a bit into the historical material on Ninjutsu and the problems associated with it Roy Ron of the Genbukan has some good material up at

Re-read my entire first post, there is one sentence about the ninja super soker creating a samurai book.

Now if that is what you want the thread to be about, we can do that. The book also claims that the author is a Dr, shall we go into that as well? Or would you rather use the search function?

And yes the book looks like a very well researched piece on Samurai work. Now, if his entire claim is full of crap, then this to is full of crap and being used as a smokescrean. However, if as Shinbushi has posted, there is a piece of legitimacy within the story there might be some worthwhile reading to this piece.

Sure you only mentioned the ninja super soke in one line but YOU did make the thread about him making up the techniques he shows in your first post. See below in blue.

Originally Posted by Askari in his first post

...Standing there flipping through this book really made me wistfully aware of how easy it would be to believe that the contents of the book are real Budo. The sad thing is that whomever wrote it for Hatsumi [Bruce Appleby and Doug Wilson...ed] did a very good job, conducted a phenomenal amount of research and are, in a lot of instances accurate. After all, the most effective lies are the ones that donít get told.

And I have seen many of these techniques and descriptions in Iaido classes and in Draeger's books.

Now I have a few of Draegers books, which are amazing, but this one is so nice I almost bought it as well - even being an ardent Bullshidoka chaser. But I was finally stopped by the self-evident confused of a "Ninja Grandmaster" writing a book about Samurai techniques.

Though I understand that his ninja lineage is not proven...but why would you confused about buying a book from someone one one subject just because he claims to be profecient in another? He also seems to be a very good painter from what I am told. And very good an calligraphy. If that is true...why would one hesitate to purchase a book from him on those topics?
Just food for thought.

I'm trying to resolve a misunderstanding without flaming you, but there's no need to swear. Them's fightin words!

This is YMAS after all, if I am full of **** call me on it. You train kung-fu, unless its red-boat __ing __un which claims to be the true ninjas, then you shouldnt really be the target of my comments. Even if you are using Robert Bussey (linked to old Bullshido thread) as an example.

Originally Posted by Rubber Tanto

Though I understand that his ninja lineage is not proven...but why would you confused about buying a book from someone one one subject just because he claims to be profecient in another? He also seems to be a very good painter from what I am told. And very good an calligraphy. If that is true...why would one hesitate to purchase a book from him on those topics?
Just food for thought.

I guess it would sort of like buying a book on home design from an Enron director. They've shown a willingness to misslead to an extreme on one subject, why should I trust them on another?

Or for a more direct example, it could be like buying a book on Karate from George Dillman. Dillman supposedly has legit Karate training, but his death touch work will forever cloud the reputation.

I have no real personal knowledge of the guy or his teachings by which to judge. I have only ever read that his lineages were unprovable except by his own accounts. And that the book is extremely good looking and I want to buy it even with what I have previously read.

Originally Posted by Fitz

There is no doubt regarding either Hatsumi's or Takamastu's lineage to the Kukishinden arts.

This is the information I have never read before this thread.

If the book contains sufficient Koryu, I am very interested in comparing it to some of Draeger's work.

If the book contains sufficient Koryu, I am very interested in comparing it to some of Draeger's work.

The other lineage that Hatsumi holds from Takamatsu that isn't in dispute is in Takagi Yoshin Ryu which is a related lineage to the Kukishinden Ryu. Additionally the primary "ninja" lineage that Hatsumi holds, the Togakure Ryu, has portions in it which are close to the material contained in the Kukishinden's "Ryusen no Maki" scroll.