All those hours of debate here, centuries of research down the through millennia, every philosopher and theologian that ever lived, the whole of human questing from ancient Greece to quantum mechanics...

Pack up the tents boys, the final frontier of the ineffable has fallen to the human mind.

Marv, Segovius is one of the good guys. He absolutely does recognize evolution as truth. However he believes there is much wisdom to be gained from understanding religion and religious teachings correctly according to how they were originally devised (or prophesied, as the case may be). There's a hell of a lot this man can teach all of us here. Even if we don't buy into any supernatural aspect of religion.

I suggest you get to know the members here better.

On the left we have myself, proud Social Democrat who believes economic success lies in a careful balance of socialism and capitalism; BR, who is on intellectual vacation right now, demonstrating how those wacky fundie guys can entertain the whole room with their hilarity; Segovius, who like BR and myself believes that the swing to the right in the UK and the US is troubling, but who holds a slightly more pragmatic view and might even believe things will correct themselves given time; and Sammi Jo, conspiracy theorist extraordinaire who is most probably correct in her constant pointing out that Democrat vs. Republican is just a cover up of an overall scheme to control American government in favor of big business.

On the right, we have Trumptman, who is as Red a Republican as they come, and who cheered for Bush until the very end (and now pretends he didn't), who thinks Palin is the kind of leader who would make this country truly great, and who has a papier maché bust of Ronald Reagan in his living room that he tirelessly made himself out of copies of old eviction notices he delightedly handed to lazy lefty tenants who fell a week behind on their rent; SDW, who is Trumptman's not quite as intelligent couch potato brother separated at birth; and MJ1970, who thinks we should abolish government and not worry about the possibility of a Mad Max anarchic world as a result, since that was only a dream. A beautiful, beautiful dream.

Sometimes Mumbo Jumbo pipes in from the left with Sego from out there in Europe somewhere. A nice guy, I've actually met him in real life. Somehow he makes me think of Jack Kerouac in a way. Though I've never met him, Segovius makes me think of Jon Anderson from the prog group Yes, though I'm sure he's much younger.

Also, we've got Fellowship, who currently leans left except when it comes to God. He believes the Bible is literal, the world is only 7,000 years old, and especially abhors the evils of legal abortion, but on the other hand, he is pragmatic about sexual minority rights, recognizes some parts of science as irrefutable (except evolution, of course), and would vote for either an honest Democrat or an honest Republican if there really were either such thing.

We're missing Shawn J, who went to law school, got sick of Trumptman's behavior and figured maybe its better to keep a low profile in case something he said ever goes public and ruins his legal/political ambition.

So, all in all, it's nice to meet you, and we're definitely glad to have you as part of the loving, caring community here at Apple Outsider.

Now go check out Kucinich, his voting record, and his public stance on the issues (he did run for the Democratic primary in 2008 and 2004).

I would argue that God is the architect of all that is. Everything from DNA to the Universe to our moral code. I find not one single other religious text which articulates these matters even closely.

Fellows

Apparently we've read different Bibles.
Where in the Bible does it mention DNA, RNA, genetic mutation or evolution? Where does it mention the greater universe or anything about it? (I'll grant you a vague comment about "the void".)
Would you say that "men" had no moral code prior to God spelling it out to Moses on the mountain? ... Are you saying that the humans of 10,000 years ago had no morals?... that they were able to live in communities without any "code' of how to get along with each other?

The Bible doesn't articulate ANYTHING about how the world physically works.

If God is "the great architect" of everything that is... well... then where did God come from???
Are you going to tell me that God just "always" existed?... If so, then we could just leave God, and it's inherent complexities, out of the equation and just say the universe "aways" exists... simplify things without changing your "timeline" by simply leaving God out of it.
That also leaves man with the ability to continue learning and expand our understanding ... (as there's nothing to learn once you get to God, as he's unknowable except through faith.)

From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...

Are you going to tell me that God just "always" existed?... If so, then we could just leave God, and it's inherent complexities, out of the equation and just say the universe "aways" exists... simplify things without changing your "timeline" by simply leaving God out of it.
That also leaves man with the ability to continue learning and expand our understanding ... (as there's nothing to learn once you get to God, as he's unknowable except through faith.)

You are on a mission to leave God out of everything.

From my pov that is foolish. You are welcome to your desires but in my case I am not going to ignore the master architect who always was and always will be.

Fellows

May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Actually, I'm on a mission to find out WHY so many OTHERS have a need to invent a God to fill the gaps.
Where is the evidence that made them think, "Oh... there's a God..."
Just being told by a preacher, or just reading it in the Koran doesn't make it so... If that's all the evidence someone needs, then ... well... perhaps P.T.Barnum was on to something.

WHAT did you discover that made you think there is a god?
SHOW ME what you discovered (well... at least tell me about it) that made you believe there is a god.

From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...

Actually, I'm on a mission to find out WHY so many OTHERS have a need to invent a God to fill the gaps.
Where is the evidence that made them think, "Oh... there's a God..."
Just being told by a preacher, or just reading it in the Koran doesn't make it so... If that's all the evidence someone needs, then ... well... perhaps P.T.Barnum was on to something.

WHAT did you discover that made you think there is a god?
SHOW ME what you discovered (well... at least tell me about it) that made you believe there is a god.

For me I fell under the power of the Holy Spirit at a time in my life about 15 years ago. When this happens there is no turning back. Since then I have had revelations, instances in my life come to pass that indicate God's hand it it all. Promises in the Bible come true. I take Jesus at his word as I do believe he is who he says he is and tells us about his Father.

If you carry on just fine with out the enhancements I describe I am not twisting your arm to cross the river. I am just suggesting that you may not fully understand the depth of God's power and love.

Fellows

As you say many invent a God. In my case I believe Jesus did walk the earth and heal the sick and feed the multitudes. I believe he did walk on water. I believe he taught in parable many times. I believe he was born of a virgin. I did not invent this. It happened.

May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

I would expect better. But then again this is merely AI PO. This is a forum where many think they know it all. Egos seemingly larger than God attempt to rule this realm.

Evolution is an entirely different thread tonton...

Evolution is the wet dream of the neo-psudo want-to-be intellectual.

Surely we have some who fit this bill who would love to spread false teaching....

Fellows

Damn straight. The idea of evolution is just utterly ridiculous. It's just a theory and a flawed one at that. Where's the evidence? Where's the fossil record? Oh sure, these "scientists" (who exhibit more faith in their bullshit than a lot of so-called Christians) CLAIM to have a fossil record. But have they pieced together every single generation from today back to our first alleged ancestor monkeys? I think not. There are gaps. You know who the real God of the Gaps is? Darwin, because his evil anti-christian bigoted theory is so full of holes it's not even funny.

Anyway, evolution isn't anywhere in the Bible. Since that's the infallible word of the Almighty, I'd never believe what a scientist says otherwise. They would probably be tricking us anyway.

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” -Sagan

I'm on a mission to find out why some assume God is a human invention.

Because that's what all evidence points us towards.

There's simply no physical evidence for the existence of God... But the human brain is capable of imagining an infinity of different "gods". This is certainly evidenced by the plethora of religions we have, when only one could actually be "true". (Well... There are some religions that DO allow for other gods, different from the ones observed by that particular religion.)

Fellowship's "revelations" and "instances" could be just as easily explained by personal introspection, and insight of his own (albeit limited ) brain. Of course... He's going to claim that "god placed those thoughts in my head", and there's no way to convince HIM otherwise... But to a disinterested observer, that just doesn't pan out.

From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...

...when someone asks "Do you believe in God?" it simply comes off as a judgmental attack.

...the main reason why atheists have problems with religion -- they feel like they are being viewed as "less than" and are being judged in a harsh and negative light.

Rather than thinking that those who believe in God are "better" than those who don't, each of us can examine how we can be more just and kind, and how we can create a deeper connection with ourselves, with others and with our world.

Damn straight. The idea of evolution is just utterly ridiculous. It's just a theory and a flawed one at that. Where's the evidence? Where's the fossil record? Oh sure, these "scientists" (who exhibit more faith in their bullshit than a lot of so-called Christians) CLAIM to have a fossil record. But have they pieced together every single generation from today back to our first alleged ancestor monkeys? I think not. There are gaps. You know who the real God of the Gaps is? Darwin, because his evil anti-christian bigoted theory is so full of holes it's not even funny.

Anyway, evolution isn't anywhere in the Bible. Since that's the infallible word of the Almighty, I'd never believe what a scientist says otherwise. They would probably be tricking us anyway.

The theory of evolution is a flawed quilt of hoaxes, guesses and speculation. Don't let me get in the way of you buying it hook line and sinker.

Fellows

May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

This man argues that all belief systems all lead to the same end result.

I completely disagree.

There was nothing there which I found of value. Thanks however for sharing tonton. I am just being honest that this man while a nice guy I am sure is not teaching what I believe.

Fellows

What end result are you talking about? Here on this world, or in the next? If it's the latter, and if everything Jesus (not the Church) taught is true, then I am secure in the belief that I am going to heaven. I don't need to believe in a literal existence of God for that to be true.

What the rabbi is saying is that religion is but one means to an end that we should all aspire to.

What his main point is, however, is that the openly religious such as yourself are doing, is making you look like Malfoy in the first Harry Potter book, when he says, 'you don't want to get mixed in with the wrong sort." To which Harry potter replied, of course, "I think I can tell the wrong sort by myself, thank you."

The theory of evolution is a flawed quilt of hoaxes, guesses and speculation. Don't let me get in the way of you buying it hook line and sinker.

Fellows

I agree, brother. Evolution is bullshit. It's nothing more than a vast anti-Christian conspiracy. Clearly, evolution and God are mutually exclusive. Even though scientists CLAIM that evolution has nothing to do with how the spark of life began or how the universe came into being, we Christians see through their lies. I love it. A quilt of hoaxes. That's so poetic and so true.

We know that we were made in God's image and that the animals were created before people (Genesis 1:24-27)

We also know that the animals were created after people (Genesis 2:4-19).

The point is, ANIMALS AND PEOPLE WERE NOT CREATED THAT THE SAME TIME. It's all right there in black and white. Nothing contradictory about it. Not like all the contradictions that scientists try to sweep under evolution's quilt.

So next time a scientist tells you, Fellows, that evolution doesn't aim to explain the beginnings of the universe, bringing up fancy terms like "out of scope," don't buy the shit they're selling. We all know that learning how species of animals change over time isn't the goal of evolutionists. We all know that modifying their theories when new evidence arrives is nothing but a sign of weakness and flimsy cover for the REAL reason thousands of biologists tirelessly spend lifetimes collecting data. Evolutionists don't care about increasing their knowledge...they just want as many good Christians as possible to lose their faith and go to hell. That's it. It's the Devil's work, plain and simple.

Stay strong, Fellows. Don't let "reason, evidence, or logic" (I nearly gagged typing that, guh) sway you from the Word of God. We have our Bibles and they have two things evolutionists lack: Consistency and Truth.

Amen.

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” -Sagan

What end result are you talking about? Here on this world, or in the next? If it's the latter, and if everything Jesus (not the Church) taught is true, then I am secure in the belief that I am going to heaven. I don't need to believe in a literal existence of God for that to be true.

The Bible says no.

Quote:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Every good Christian knows that it's not about what you do in this life but rather who you believe in.

In fact, there's only one sin that is unpardonable: BLASPHEMY AGAINST THE HOLY SPIRIT. You are 100% guaranteed to go to hell, Tonton. It says so in black in white in the Book of Books.

Every good Christian knows that it's not about what you do in this life but rather who you believe in.

In fact, there's only one sin that is unpardonable: BLASPHEMY AGAINST THE HOLY SPIRIT. You are 100% guaranteed to go to hell, Tonton. It says so in black in white in the Book of Books.

Well, if you are going to imitate at least do a good job. This post is half right. The last statement is not for you to say. Only one can do that and you are not that one. Not even in your "enlightened" state of mind.

NoahJ"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi

The Bible clearly states anyone who blasphemes God cannot be forgiven. If one cannot be forgiven, he cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Ipso Facto QED and all that mumbo jumbo those science folks like to say...tonton's going to hell. It's clear as day. Black and white. Noah, ARE YOU QUESTIONING GOD'S WORD?

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” -Sagan

The Bible clearly states anyone who blasphemes god cannot be forgiven. If one cannot be forgiven, he cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Ipso Facto QED and all that mumbo jumbo those science folks like to say...tonton's going to hell. It's clear as day. Black and white. Noah, ARE YOU QUESTIONING GOD'S WORD?

What I have said isn't blasphemy, even in the modern definition of the word. I'd love to see the biblical definition of the word if you can pull that out of anywhere other than your assurances.

Unbelief would qualify as irreverence as you aren't giving our Creator the respect He deserves for putting us, in His Image, here on this Earth, that of which He made. Do you believe the Lord Jesus Christ is your God and Savior? You answer no and you blaspheme.

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” -Sagan

The Bible clearly states anyone who blasphemes God cannot be forgiven. If one cannot be forgiven, he cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Ipso Facto QED and all that mumbo jumbo those science folks like to say...tonton's going to hell. It's clear as day. Black and white. Noah, ARE YOU QUESTIONING GOD'S WORD?

Nope, just yours.

NoahJ"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi

Marv, Segovius is one of the good guys. He absolutely does recognize evolution as truth. However he believes there is much wisdom to be gained from understanding religion and religious teachings correctly according to how they were originally devised (or prophesied, as the case may be). There's a hell of a lot this man can teach all of us here. Even if we don't buy into any supernatural aspect of religion.

I suggest you get to know the members here better.

On the left we have myself, proud Social Democrat who believes economic success lies in a careful balance of socialism and capitalism; BR, who is on intellectual vacation right now, demonstrating how those wacky fundie guys can entertain the whole room with their hilarity; Segovius, who like BR and myself believes that the swing to the right in the UK and the US is troubling, but who holds a slightly more pragmatic view and might even believe things will correct themselves given time; and Sammi Jo, conspiracy theorist extraordinaire who is most probably correct in her constant pointing out that Democrat vs. Republican is just a cover up of an overall scheme to control American government in favor of big business.

On the right, we have Trumptman, who is as Red a Republican as they come, and who cheered for Bush until the very end (and now pretends he didn't), who thinks Palin is the kind of leader who would make this country truly great, and who has a papier maché bust of Ronald Reagan in his living room that he tirelessly made himself out of copies of old eviction notices he delightedly handed to lazy lefty tenants who fell a week behind on their rent; SDW, who is Trumptman's not quite as intelligent couch potato brother separated at birth; and MJ1970, who thinks we should abolish government and not worry about the possibility of a Mad Max anarchic world as a result, since that was only a dream. A beautiful, beautiful dream.

Sometimes Mumbo Jumbo pipes in from the left with Sego from out there in Europe somewhere. A nice guy, I've actually met him in real life. Somehow he makes me think of Jack Kerouac in a way. Though I've never met him, Segovius makes me think of Jon Anderson from the prog group Yes, though I'm sure he's much younger.

Also, we've got Fellowship, who currently leans left except when it comes to God. He believes the Bible is literal, the world is only 7,000 years old, and especially abhors the evils of legal abortion, but on the other hand, he is pragmatic about sexual minority rights, recognizes some parts of science as irrefutable (except evolution, of course), and would vote for either an honest Democrat or an honest Republican if there really were either such thing.

We're missing Shawn J, who went to law school, got sick of Trumptman's behavior and figured maybe its better to keep a low profile in case something he said ever goes public and ruins his legal/political ambition.

So, all in all, it's nice to meet you, and we're definitely glad to have you as part of the loving, caring community here at Apple Outsider.

Now go check out Kucinich, his voting record, and his public stance on the issues (he did run for the Democratic primary in 2008 and 2004).

Tonton, it's time to get that Alzheimer's checked. Tonton's goal is to singlehandedly disprove intelligent design with his own behavior.

First assumption is that your interpretation of what blaspheming the Holy Spirit is.
Second assumption is that Tonton's position falls into that definition and is indeed what he is doing.
Third Assumption is that God agrees with your position and has also decided to pass judgement on this.
I am questioning you.

NoahJ"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi

First assumption is that your interpretation of what blaspheming the Holy Spirit is.
Second assumption is that Tonton's position falls into that definition and is indeed what he is doing.
Third Assumption is that God agrees with your position and has also decided to pass judgement on this.
I am questioning you.

First assumption is that your interpretation of what blaspheming the Holy Spirit is.
Second assumption is that Tonton's position falls into that definition and is indeed what he is doing.
Third Assumption is that God agrees with your position and has also decided to pass judgement on this.
I am questioning you.

1. "Hey Holy Spirit, I don't believe you exist." Are you telling me that isn't blasphemy?
2. Tonton is an atheist. By definition, that is a rejection of the Christian God.
3. They Holy Book tells us that blasphemy is unforgivable. Don't argue with me. Argue with our Book if you have a problem with that.

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” -Sagan

Marv, Segovius is one of the good guys. He absolutely does recognize evolution as truth. However he believes there is much wisdom to be gained from understanding religion and religious teachings correctly according to how they were originally devised (or prophesied, as the case may be). There's a hell of a lot this man can teach all of us here. Even if we don't buy into any supernatural aspect of religion.

I suggest you get to know the members here better.

On the left we have myself, proud Social Democrat who believes economic success lies in a careful balance of socialism and capitalism; BR, who is on intellectual vacation right now, demonstrating how those wacky fundie guys can entertain the whole room with their hilarity; Segovius, who like BR and myself believes that the swing to the right in the UK and the US is troubling, but who holds a slightly more pragmatic view and might even believe things will correct themselves given time; and Sammi Jo, conspiracy theorist extraordinaire who is most probably correct in her constant pointing out that Democrat vs. Republican is just a cover up of an overall scheme to control American government in favor of big business.

On the right, we have Trumptman, who is as Red a Republican as they come, and who cheered for Bush until the very end (and now pretends he didn't), who thinks Palin is the kind of leader who would make this country truly great, and who has a papier maché bust of Ronald Reagan in his living room that he tirelessly made himself out of copies of old eviction notices he delightedly handed to lazy lefty tenants who fell a week behind on their rent; SDW, who is Trumptman's not quite as intelligent couch potato brother separated at birth; and MJ1970, who thinks we should abolish government and not worry about the possibility of a Mad Max anarchic world as a result, since that was only a dream. A beautiful, beautiful dream.

Sometimes Mumbo Jumbo pipes in from the left with Sego from out there in Europe somewhere. A nice guy, I've actually met him in real life. Somehow he makes me think of Jack Kerouac in a way. Though I've never met him, Segovius makes me think of Jon Anderson from the prog group Yes, though I'm sure he's much younger.

Also, we've got Fellowship, who currently leans left except when it comes to God. He believes the Bible is literal, the world is only 7,000 years old, and especially abhors the evils of legal abortion, but on the other hand, he is pragmatic about sexual minority rights, recognizes some parts of science as irrefutable (except evolution, of course), and would vote for either an honest Democrat or an honest Republican if there really were either such thing.

We're missing Shawn J, who went to law school, got sick of Trumptman's behavior and figured maybe its better to keep a low profile in case something he said ever goes public and ruins his legal/political ambition.

So, all in all, it's nice to meet you, and we're definitely glad to have you as part of the loving, caring community here at Apple Outsider.

Now go check out Kucinich, his voting record, and his public stance on the issues (he did run for the Democratic primary in 2008 and 2004).

Thanks for your input on all these members you described to me.Now I know a little better understanding about each one. Was not Dennis Kucinch the charachter who wanted to sue a restaurant when he bit into some kind of food and claimed he had thousands of dollars dental work to be done? He is a double talker I know that.

1. "Hey Holy Spirit, I don't believe you exist." Are you telling me that isn't blasphemy?
2. Tonton is an atheist. By definition, that is a rejection of the Christian God.
3. They Holy Book tells us that blasphemy is unforgivable. Don't argue with me. Argue with our Book if you have a problem with that.

As was noted earlier, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the only sin in the Bible that is given the status of unpardonable or eternal. In fact, Jesus prefaced His discussion of this sin by stating that, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, except for blasphemy against the Spirit. Using the working definition of blasphemy as speaking evil of, it becomes clear that the sin described by Jesus was a tongue sin that the Pharisees had committed, or at least were dangerously close to committing.

What had the Pharisees done that would have put them in jeopardy of committing the unpardonable sin? According to His own testimony, during Jesus time on this Earth He cast out demons by the Spirit of God (Matthew 12:28). When the Pharisees saw that Jesus had performed a verifiable miracle, they could not argue with the fact that Christ possessed certain powers that others (including themselves) did not have. Therefore, in order to cast suspicion on the ministry of Jesus, they claimed that He was casting out demons by Beelzebub, the ruler of demons. The name Beelzebub is simply another name for Satan (Franklin, 1936, p. 227), as can be seen from Jesus reference to Satan in Matthew 12:26. Even when faced by the miraculous working of the Holy Spirit through Jesus, the Pharisees were, in essence, attributing Jesus power to Satan, and claiming that Jesus was Satan incarnate instead of God incarnate. It is this, and nothing else, that our Lord calls the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost (or SpiritKB) (Franklin, p. 227). Maxie Boren wrote: The context of Matthew 12:22ff. shows clearly that this was indeed the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spiritattributing the miracle done by Jesus to the power of the devil. Jesus said it was done by the Spirit of God (verse 28) but they (the PhariseesKB) said it was done by Beelzebub (n.d., p. 1). It is clear that blasphemy against the Spirit was a definite, singular sin, which could be committed by the Pharisees during the life of Jesus.

Not believing is not the same as blaspheming.

NoahJ"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi