david - i already have all the hadith online (usc muslim students association website) as well as the quran in several translations. working ones way through such turgid material is very hard work. as for "juvenile arguments" well were talking about peoples lives here, and their most basic freedoms. i dont know how you can produce all these cop-outs in the face of such a vital issue. if you think youve such a nice, balanced understanding of islam then answer this - who may muslims kill? who should they kill? who do they kill? and why?

so my juvenile arguments "are derived from others who feel they can only justify their religion by demeaning others" - would Abul Ala Maududi also come into that category? -- i think youll find he knew rather more about islam than you, (or anyone else on this site) and he was certainly a real person. sad to say, your comments on islam border on the psychophantic (is that the right spelling?) just who has islam been a blessing to? --certainly not to christians and other non-muslims living in muslim countries, or 50/50 countries. look at whats going on in nigeria, pakistan, sudan, egypt, indonesia etc. look at what yasser arafat did to bethlehem

What you fail to see is that the killing of an apostate is only for those Muslims who turn their back on Islam and they fight against Islam.In the early days of Islam, some Muslim men had little/weak faith and would flee and go to the other side to fight against Islam if they felt Islam was way out numbered.Apostate means traitor not simply one who no longer believes.Tell me of any country that would treat an apostate (a traitor) during wartimes any less than to have them court marshaled if they are caught?And tell me which country would not actively seek out apostates.The ayat and ahadith you make reference to are about war.It is not fair for you to take those out of context.

There is no law in Islam which states that a believer who becomes a non-believer should be killed simply because they stop believing.In fact, in the Qur’an it states:

How shall Allah guide those who reject faith after they accepted it and bore witness that the Apostle was true and that clear signs had come unto them? But Allah guides not a people unjust. (3:86)

Of such the reward is that on them (rests) the curse of Allah of His angels and of all mankind. (3:87)

In that will they dwell; nor will their penalty be lightened nor respite be their (lot). (3:88)

Except for those that repent (even) after that and make amends: for verily Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful. (3:89)

But those who reject faith after they accepted it and then go on adding to their defiance of faith never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have (of set purpose) gone astray. (3:90)

As to those who reject faith and die rejecting never would be accepted from any such as much gold as the earth contains though they should offer it for ransom. For such is (in store) a penalty grievous and they will find no helpers. (3:91)

I have included all of the ayat regarding those who reject faith after they believed (this is for the general population and not regarding times of war where a person becomes a traitor/apostate) so that no one is tempted to take it out of context.It clearly states that Allah is not pleased with these individuals and that there reward in the hereafter is a “penalty grievous”; however, it doesn’t state that they are to be killed in this life.In fact, ayat 89 states “for those that repent (even) after that and make amends” which means that they have to remain alive in order for them to have the chance to repent.At the end of that ayat, it states “for verily Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful.”This means that even if someone does lose their faith (in cases other than becoming a traitor/apostate), Allah will forgive them if they return and repent.

How does this constitute a violent religion?Despite what others may think, Allah is Merciful.All one has to do is to read past the prejudices he/she brings when they approach Islam.

With respect to your question about who Muslims may kill, here is your answer:

17:33 Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand qisas or to forgive): but let him nor exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the Law).

That is, Muslims can only kill someone if there is just cause to do so.Such as:

1.) To protect from tumult and religious oppression. (see Holy Qur’an 2:191; also see 2:193 and not that the last sentence in the ayat is, “Let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression.”; also 2:217; 8:25; 8:39; 8:73)

2.) To punish someone for committing murder. (Even in cases of murder if the family of the slain person is forgiving, then it is not permitted to kill the person who committed the murder, see Holy Qur’an 2:178.)

Who are Muslims forbidden to kill?

1.)They cannot kill themselves; i.e., commit suicide or do other things which may lead to the own death such as smoking:

4:29 O ye who believe! Eat not up your property among yourselves in vanities: But let there be amongst you Traffic and trade by mutual good-will: Nor kill (or destroy) yourselves: for verily Allah hath been to you Most Merciful!

2.)They cannot kill their own children.It was (and to some extent still is in some part of the world) a common practice to kill unwanted children (in the overwhelming majority of the cases it was daughters; in fact, some buried their daughters alive, see Holy Qur’an 81:8) in the days before Allah sent the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) the people.

6:151 Say: "Come, I will rehearse what Allah hath (really) prohibited you from": Join not anything as equal with Him; be good to your parents; kill not your children on a plea of want;- We provide sustenance for you and for them;- come not nigh to shameful deeds. Whether open or secret; take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus doth He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.

17:31 kill not your children for fear of want: We shall provide sustenance for them as well as for you. Verily the killing of them is a great sin.

60:12 O Prophet! When believing women come to thee to take the oath of fealty to thee, that they will not associate in worship any other thing whatever with Allah, that they will not steal, that they will not commit adultery (or fornication), that they will not kill their children, that they will not utter slander, intentionally forging falsehood, and that they will not disobey thee in any just matter,- then do thou receive their fealty, and pray to Allah for the forgiveness (of their sins): for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

3.)Anyone who has not committed an unjust act (i.e., murdered someone, or causing tumult in the land or oppression of faith.(I’ve already shown this by it’s negation above.)

It is not true that Islam believe all others besides Muslims are “infidels.”If one is to assert that the term “infidel” can be found in the Holy Qur’an, they cannot attach it to any other than to those who were pagans.It is clearly stated in the Holy Qur’an that Christian and Jews are People of the Book.In Sura 3, Al- Imran, there is much discussion about People of the Book (i.e., Muslims, Christians and Jews), no where does it say to kill them.Allah merely warns against many of the problems which arose from Jews and Christians who went off His Straight Path, and command Muslims not to do the same thing.In fact, at Sura 3, Al-Imran, Allah tells the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) call for the joining together the Jews and Christians in worshiping Allah:

Say: "O people of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: that we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not from among ourselves Lords and patrons other than Allah."

Did Allah command the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to kill them if they refused?No!In the last send of the above ayat, he said:

If then they turn back say: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's will)."

There is no command to kills them or hunt them down or to persecute them in any way simply based upon the fact that they rejected Allah’s call to unit them in worshiping Him.Why?Because there simply is no compulsion to adhere believe in Islam and just because a person refuses to accept Islam is not grounds to kill them.

Hopefully this will answer some of your questions Fredifreeloader.

Ashukru-lillahi Rabbil-Alameen wala- hawlawala quwata illa billah

Sister Khadija

Say: 'My prayer and my rites, my living and my dying, are for Allah alone, the Lord of all the worlds. (Qur'an, 6:162)

Thanks Sister Khadija for enlightening about Islam, a peaceful religion.

To Freddie, Sister Khadija gave you another valueable answer that similar to what I had said earlier ie IT IS THE LAWs OF THE LAND THAT GOVERNED THE PEOPLE AND NOT THE LAW OF ISLAM in MALAYSIA.

Perhaps, it will be good for you to start making friends with any Muslim etc. This will widen your horizon and further your knowledge about other religion particularly, Islam. If you still cannot accept what has been said, please leave in peace. GOD/ALLAH bless you.

Also Fredie, although most of the Malaysia's constitutions are not completely Islamic, it does not mean the country is not governed by Muslims. It is still an Islamic country and from the Muslim point of view in Malaysia, they called for a global peace through Peace Forum to criminalise warring countries like United States, Iran etc because the UN has failed. This is also to prevent more war in the future as the faith of the true Muslim is PEACE.

Regarding your input on the killing of converts from Islam, it is individuality as it depends on your mentality to perceive what is being taught by the Iman. If you have a strong mentality, you will be able to define between wrong-doing and righteousness.

Let me share with you this experience, there is this a con-artist from Singapore, came to Malaysia finding new friends to form a cult using the teachings of Buddhism. Three of the precepts in Buddhism is no adultery, no gambling and no drinking. However, this man so-called ex-monk shacked up with a married woman. He also loves to gamble, spending more money buying lottery and drinks alcoholic beverages.

He expressed himself as a psychic who knows the future and the past. It was quite accurate when he mentioned about someone's past. When questions were raised about his teachings, he said "I must not answer your questions". Now, when he said this, it depends on individual to intrepret the meaning. To me, it's pure ***edited*** To his girlfriend, he has a reason for not telling the truth. YOU SEE, IT ALL DEPENDS ON INDIVIDUALITY. Not all can detect the wolf in the sheep's clothings.

I refer to what Sister Khadija had shared that the Apostates are these people who pretend to be one holy preacher like this "con-artist". Therefore, to prevent these apostates from leading the faithful believer into the wrong path, they deserve a righteous punishment. When human fear god, human will not become devilish. This is to contain the negative behaviour. The natural law of effect is that not all human fear god and that the demonly human will self-interpret god's teachings and gone astray without realizing the effect of their consequences. It is similar to the saying of one black sheep in a family.

***Sorry Sister Pauline but the use of profanity is not allowed even if it is disguised with astrics and you intentions good. Next time try using a word like "nonsense" or "ignorance", I think that will get your point across."***

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