"Sony hardware has a surprisingly large 32 ROPs; 32 comes across as overkill, but it could be useful for addressing stereoscopic 1080p for instance, or even 4K"

1080p 60fps shouldn't be a problem then. Nice!

"we're told that the quality of the tools for PS4 has increased exponentially to the point where one highly experienced game-maker we spoke to rates the PlayStation Vita tools as the most impressive he's used"

3rd party devs have no excuses any longer, if you're unable to code for PS4 then it has nothing to do with the hardware and everything to do with your skill set.

DDR5 vs DDR3 for GPU memory is a MASSIVE advantage. People say oh I only use DDR3 on my PC but there graphics card most likely uses DDR5. The bandwith in DDR3 will be a massive bottleneck for devs in the next generation and will lead once again to games being downgraded for both consoles to look on par.. However the exclusives on PS3 will be off the chart thanks to having this bottleneck removed.

Gamer- If the PS4 really is significantly more powerful than the successor to the 360, I really think third-party games will reflect that. It seems the reason for this happening this gen was the relative ease of development on 360 compared to PS3. If PS4 is developer friendly, then it wouldn't be hard for them to use the extra power to add extra effects and if there's a PC version, maybe even higher resolution and framerate to achieve something closer to parity with that version. Either way, I buy Playstations because of the exclusives the platform offers. Not having to worry about any Bayonetta or Skyrim fiascos is simply icing on the cake.

@Gamer1982 DDR3 in Durango is only half the story, though. I have a hard time seeing 68GB/s + 100GB/s = 170GB/s...the ESRAM is a cache; and never can the peak bandwidth be bigger than the fastest entity in the system - no matter if it runs parallel or not. If you make one read with 68GB/s and another with 100GB/s you still read with a max of 100GB/s - well, but you can move a bit more data - but only if you have a proper data layout which really can benefit from such a "data move". And in that case, it would actually drop down to the slowest transfer (like 68[pool1] + x>68[pool2] needs to wait till you have all data from pool1 loaded...).

Well, all that said, though, MS tries to offset the limits of DDR3 with extra HW to remove dependencies from bandwidth. But it will require some SW tricks to utilize those. Funny, ain't it? Sony tried the same with the PS3. - One significant difference here, however, despite all customization, Orbis is still up to 50% faster...makes you think, huh? 360s EDRAM could level the SPU advantage, but wasn't faster...

MS priority seemed to be the >4GB, it seems while Sony looks like is biting the bullet and goes with what's available. It also looks to me, that AMD did the whole chipset for Sony (this is a SoC incl. CPU and GPU) while MS might have had more internal work done to get those customization in?

The fact is, the PS4 (supposedly) beats the Durango when 4GB are in your budget - by quite a bit. But if devs require more - there will be no other option but to add some streaming to the PS4, while Durango can use the bigger pool. I personally think that 4GB is the better route to go - if you build a console primarily.

I am quite surprised that this time MS went for the excessive customization while Sony streamlined their platform. I think MS had the wrong priorities (but that's just me). 8GB GDRAM might be feasible in some near future which will make all that customization quite obsolete.

And the other fact is, that if AMD packs all that onto a SoC (Sony), that the Orbis might actually be cheaper - with the offset that the 4GB GDRAM might clock at the same price as the 8GB DDR3.

No matter what. We'll see some freaking looking games come next gen. No matter what you'll choose.

Honestly, I have no desire whatsoever to get a 720. Microsoft outright said that it's going to be less of a game console, and more of a "media-hub", a path that the Xbox has been going down since its start. The only reason I bought an Xbox in the first place was because it was all my friends would ever played. Xbox Live is the reason why I started getting angry at video games. Hopefully the PS4 will continue chugging out new and innovative GAMING experiences, not new peripherals that allow us to play shitty games in cool ways.

Huge percent advantage on what? As the article state, he dont know but speculate on results, the data its too closed together to activate a winner. Well, I know 1 thing for sure N4G is were most drolls come to and seems always 1 way. Comprehension level here its minimal, but to make it simple, they have same cpu, same amount of ram 2ddr3 = 1 ddr5, video cards or gpu are similar, so it all comes down to neat picking, faster does not meant carry more and thats were MS placed their eggs cause they want more functions and the reason they emplaced the 4 move engines. Either way, both consoles are going to rock, but PS4 its focused on raw power on gaming which will lack behind on media/entertainment models, while ms has the availability to resurface due to its flexinility. Either way none of this its oficial, what makes this article good, its how many of you already painted a picture of who will win based on rumours, lol, not to mention that most of you dont understand anything.

Hm, well I could've sworn I heard that from at least 4 or 5 different sources. Oh well. I guess the reason why I won't be buying it will be for my primary reason: Xbox has about 4 exclusive games worth owning, none of which I have any interest in.

I have a feeling this conversation is going nowhere on this forum - people are splitting hairs on hypothetical arguments.

The truth is, specs can be changed just like Ken K said. Once the opposition reveals their specs, all you need to do is figure out a way to match it somehow. Simple as that, and don't think either Sony or Microsoft is going to let the other get away with a massive advantage.

Oh god here we go again. More pre launch sony propaganda just like before the PS3 launched.

-Ps3 is more powerful than a super computer.

-PS3 can do 1080p

-Ps3 can do 120 fps

On and on based on mis information and rumors. Pro sony media and sony are going to allow the sony fanboys to smear the 720 like they did with the 360 and wii u

You can't trust Sony about specs even if the PS4 specs rumors were actually/truely leaked from Sony. Sony is known for telling lies to trick stupid fanboys from buying other consoles and to run negative smear campaigns against mostly MSFT.

I won't believe anything until MSFT releases the specs for 720 and pro unbiased developers reveal the specs of the PS4 without Sony influence. Also multi platform games will be the best proof not linear games with static game design and lack of features.

Since when is Eurogamer pro-Sony? How is any of this Sony propaganda? Sounds like baseless speculation from someone whose entire argument claims to be against such things. Remember, these specs are just rumors, there's no need for an Xbox fanboy like you to get all worked up just yet. P.S. The proof of your lack of logic is contained neatly in one sentence: "I won't believe anything until MSFT releases the specs for 720 and pro unbiased developers reveal the specs of the PS4 without Sony influence."

So, you need a "pro, unbiased deveoper" (whose legitimacy I'm sure will be determined by how their words affect your agenda) yet you are more than willing to accept the word of Microsoft's marketing department. Sound logic there...

Edit: One thing Sony didn't lie about is the fact that they would continue providing an experience unavailable on any other console. The number of both blockbuster and unique exclusives delivered this gen delivers on that promise. A good number of them do so at a fidelity that is also without rival on anything other than PC.

bahahaha and your saying microsoft dont tell lies ??? your serious right ?? i think you best do i history lesson on microsoft, see what ya find lots of lies since the company was formed in 1975.. ever company tells white lies and bends the truth, but theres no way you can point the finger at sony when they all do the same !! plus sony never released no specs on any console nor did microsoft. its the media and or moles who make you think what you wanna hear....

Should bookmark this page and come back when we get real specs. In the meantime sit back and watch the self destruction. Watching people fight and argue over made up forum specs and wishlist is funny as hell.

I don't know why anybody disagreed with you on that, it's very true, look at the games Sony's first party studios pumped out with the PS3, it was incredible, I can only imagine what they can do with the PS4 once they get ever last possible bit of power of it.

The problem developers will be facing is that they have to make multiplatform games meaning the games must be playable on all next gen consoles. 3rd party developers won't able to use the Levis to its full potential.

I think this is less a technical problem than a political. If MS puts a class in their certification again which requires to make game on par if they want to get Xbox certification than we won't.

But, both machines have some significant distinctions which will require developers to support each individually and in that process can max out each platform.

Durango will need explicit code to utilize ESRAM and Move Engines, the new DX "direct path" interface will make all developers write shader code tailored for exactly this platform (using HLSL) while LibGCM has a shorter path anyway but uses its own proprietary shader language (closer to GLSL - actually I don't even know, but it's more a mix of GLSL and CUDA AFAIK).

Theoretically Orbis GPU can handle more tris, not sure if we'll see that in num polys because this is heavily dependent on the arts pipeline (and pre-processing) and if the toolchains aren't flexible enough to do dynamic vertex reduction, then both platforms will probably look the same.

very true.. imagine if PS3 (256mb)had an equal amount of ram as 360 (512mb) while maintaining the 256mb of vram.. It wouldve murdered em.. The limited ram inside PS3 is one of the main reasons a lot of multiplats struggle to run smoothly.. Sony knows this so im sure they wont make that mistake again

DF in regard to RAM 4gb fast vs 8gb slow..."So what does this mean for game devs in real terms? Well, whichever way Microsoft tries to finesse it, the 32MB of ESRAM is a bit of a sticking plaster solution that is nowhere near as fast or efficient as the single unified pool of RAM available to Orbis."

That answers the question of which is better, 4gb of DDR5 or 8gb DDR3. They go on to say it's not a complete disaster for MS but at least we have a clear, definitive answer to stop arguments.

The other things to take into consideration is that the new xbox has 256bit bus from the ram and nearly everything in ram will be compressed and decompressed on the fly by the gpu and move engines, and GDR5 ram has higher latencey than DDR3 ram so the new xbox may have faster ram access. It will probably better at open world games as it will all be precompressed from hdd/blu to ram. Also loading times will be faster and AA will be less stressfull on the gpu

I'm almost sure I heard a rumour that Sony is pushing 8gigs of DDR5 ram. If the Ps4 gets 8 gigs of DDR5 ram the differnce between the systems will be huge. Either way the system with the best exclusives and free online is the one I will buy.

that would help future proof things a little. High end PC games only use 8gb so that would cover them for awhile considering consoles don't need nearly as much RAM. I would also be excited to see what they could do with multitasking if they had that much RAM.

We have confirmed with sources that recently leaked tech specs are accurate. Though Durango devkits offer 8GB of DDR3 RAM, compared to Orbis’s 4GB, Sony’s GDDR5 solution is capable of moving data at 176 gigabytes per second, which should eliminate the sort of bottlenecks that hampered PS3 game performance. Importantly, we’ve learned that Sony has told developers that it is pushing for the final PS4 RAM to match up to Microsoft’s 8GB." http://www.edge-online.com/...

They said that architecturally they're very similar, but power-wise Orbis is clearly more capable. It's like saying a 200HP gasoline car is more closely related to a 300HP gasoline car than it is another 200HP electric car.

Orbis has 14 CU's for rendering, which alone beats the 720, but it has 4 more for physics, AI, etc. so it doesn't even dip into that rendering power.

I don't really care what the specs are I'm buying Playstation whatever it's called (I predict 4) because they have most of my favorite devs in their first party. I just want to see what ND, SP, MM, GG, Insomniac (I expect Fuse to bomb and them to come back to Sony and continue my favorite franchise of all time Ratchet and Clank), SSM, Polyphony, Quantic Dream, and all the other first party studios will do. A lot of people bought MS because they were cheaper and out first and all they wanted to do was play COD and/or a sports game. This time will be VERY different especially if PS releases at the same price or lower because of Kinect on Xbox.

Exactly 3 franchises are good on xbox, and Forza and GT basically wash each other out. I won't go listing all the exclusives I happen to like because maybe you're not into any of them and do like Halo and Gears, but my point was the fact that the PS3 has outsold the 360 nearly every year both have been out (08 aside) despite being out later (less friends who pulled the trigger in the first year asking you to buy it) and being more expensive the entire gen (sometimes $200 more) is a bad sign for MS. Normally price and timing are two of the most important factors in a console's success, especially price. If they couldn't win being cheaper and earlier than what chance do they have on an even playing field?

"If they couldn't win being cheaper and earlier than what chance do they have on an even playing field?"

Win what?

You guys/gals and this fanboy BS have got to stop it. For your own sakes.

Microsoft is profitable and have made a name for themselves in the gaming market. The xbox 360 thrashed the original xbox sales. Is that a win?The ps2 has sold a gazillion more units than the ps3 has in less time. Is that a win?

These companies dont get trophies when the ps4 and xbox 720 are released. The world keeps turning. G.E. lives with LG, whom lives with Sony, whom lives with Samsung, whom lives with Sanyo, etc etc. They all sell phones, washers and dryers, televisions, and other electronics. Profits are the only thing that matters not if they sell 20 more televisions than the other guy.

"With Orbis, Sony is using a new variant of the LibGCM library, which has also been utilised in PS3 and Vita. This allows developers to more directly address the hardware, so elements of the AMD graphics hardware in particular can be accessed in a manner where there is no direct correlation in DirectX. You only need to look at games like God of War and Uncharted to see what Sony's approach to exploiting its hardware can produce: these remain state-of-the-art video games to this day, despite utilising graphics hardware directly derived from now-obsolete vintage 2005 Nvidia graphics hardware. Of course, with PS3 in particular, the GPU is only one part of the overall hardware offering, but the fact remains that developers are extracting performance from RSX that could only have been dreamed of when the console was designed."

Wrong read the article.

3rd party devs dont take advantage of the specs but first partys do which is basicly what they are saying. And if you read the article game development might be more difficult on the 720 than the PS4 due to its more complex architecture with the RAM and the ESRAM.

"Well, whichever way Microsoft tries to finesse it, the 32MB of ESRAM is a bit of a sticking plaster solution that is nowhere near as fast or efficient as the single unified pool of RAM available to Orbis."

I should have elaborated. I didn't mean in terms of game development as much as making it an "entertainment system" that they are just now trying to make the PS4. Xbox has been an entertainment system since they released the 360. It's UI is an experience in itself, and the playstation was just plain old boring. Apps are utilized better with microsoft because they know where to allocate their money. Sony is run very poorly

Just because it hasn't happened, doesn't mean it can't happen! IMO it all come down to the best offerings for the best price!

IMO the WII was just a fluke of nature, meaning that it was a case of nintendo having all their ducks lined up in a row! and even then it wasn't perfect, because they lost out on major 3rd party support.

As far as multimedia goes I think that Sony and Microsoft for the most part will be neck & neck, with no true winner! That's already apparent in this generation, because just like microsoft have partnerships with certain entities in the media fields, sony owns their owns their companies in those same fields.

The line will be drawn when it comes to games, and how you interact with the online components of said games! IMO single players are on their way out.

Seriously? Good news for PC? If the consoles reach capability of matching current PC games then who will go and buy another 600$ vga card to upgrade every 2 years? And in last/current gen how many pc devs shifted focus on to consoles, so imagine if the new consoles allow devs to do whatever they desire and without fear of keeping in mind compatibility issues betweens millions of pcs and keeping it in mind the minimum specs they need to start off from the bat etc.

I had a fairly good pc self built a few years back, with Core i5 750 @ 3.8Ghz watercooled, 2 x 2GB DDR 3 @ 1700mhz, xfire 2x 5870, and recently had free replacement of my MS236 Asus 23" under warranty to Asus VG278H 27" 1080p 3D monitor. However i would not be upgrading the setup anytime soon but rather buy next gen consoles.

"If the consoles reach capability of matching current PC game then who will go and buy another 600$ vga card to upgrade every 2 years?"

People who will want the hardware as devs push beyond console yet again....

You also said 'match', not beat. If they match....so what???

If the consoles arrive and will be slower than countless PC gamers setups, then all it does is improve the overall quality of graphics of multiplatform games, while the PC gamers can all still easily run those titles on their existing hardware.

The question should actually be who will rush out to buy a console at the start if their PC manages to already match and in many cases surpass new consoles on their games?

The consoles could provide a nice leap in game quality and a huge portion of PC gamers will not even have to upgrade...forcing developers and hardware manufacturers to give us a reason to do so gradually like they did with Crysis.

"The question should actually be who will rush out to buy a console at the start if their PC manages to already match and in many cases surpass new consoles on their games? " This is exactly it. I was excited about consoles, but after seeing all the rumored specs...why would I buy anything slower/inferior to what I already have? I'm not in the mood for another generic Gears, Uncharted, or Killzone. I have a feeling I'll just be dropping a new video card into my rig and calling it a day. Side note, I love upgrading my hardware. It's a privilege not a necessity.

Wow, so many are picking sides based on rumours. Remember all the PR crap both MS and Sony spinned prior to the release of the current gen consoles? Obviously not as so many are prepared to jump on the rumour train again.

Let's let the software do the talking. If it were all down to specs then Xbox would have beat out PS2 and Vita would be eclipsing the 3ds. Do you think people will care about specs this time next year after Tegra 4 devices hit the market or will they still prefer Vita for the games?

To call them game consoles is a disservice really. I mean if these were solely gaming consoles releasing in 2013 they would be a pretty epic fail. Most devices now serve multiple purposes because it makes sense.

Yes you want to play games of course but these are now multimedia devices that can also play games you can have both. I can't think of a device coming out in 2013 that is strictly one thing anymore.

If you want the system that only focuses on gaming I'm sorry but such a device doesn't exist.

That is why I prefer Sony as they have always focused and catered to the hardcore gamer. They still have some options on the side for casual gamers but not as much as Nintendo has been in recent gens. The video game market is now divided in three segments; hardcore, casual and all around. Hardcore and casual make up the majority. XBox was hardcore until they saw Nintendo's succes with the Wii and chose to change their focus to bring more casual gamers to their product. The huge focus on Kinect games shows casual gaming is MS main focus now. The next XBox seems to expand on that with how much investment is being made on the next gen Kinect. They will still have 3rd party games for the hardcore but their true focus will be casuals. Kinda like Nintendo with the Wii. Sony seems to want better graphics, smooth processing and ease of development to get games out to the hard core while a significant amount of improvement is made on their next PS eye. These are all still speculations and we will need to see what is true and what isn't when these consoles and official specs are officially released.

The real xbox specs are on the leaked microsoft xbox 720 documents. As suspected these leaks from Vgleaks showing the next xbox less powerful than the 360? The pro Sony boys are going to be in for a rude awakening once the real specs are released and the Orbis really no better. It has been found that VGLeaks got there specs fon the Durango early SDK.. The final SDK hasnt been finalised while the Orbis Has.

There is going to be alot of minipulations and smearing with pro sony people trying to get revenge for this generation and to put sony back on top by spreading bs lies and rumors.

All this sony hype started in response to the leaked 720 docs showing it to be 6-8 times more powerful than 360. Suddenly anti msft people are using the spec/rumors that show less capability than the leaked 720 docs to give sony's ps4 a win lmao

Microsoft didn't focus as much as sony on specs this time around because they know that is not the only thing that sells consoles. More importantly im excited too see what heights Xbox live & Kinect will be taken to.

i think kinect can compliment hardcore games splendidly if used correctly along with the main cotroller. kinect should be used to enhance the eperience currently present with a normal controller.

In my oppinion, ps move turned out more of a failure than kinect in terms of hardcore because kinect can be used in tandem with xbox controller to enhance the experience while ps move must be used by its own and all people that play shooters prefer sony controller over move.

I would only buy a PS move if they somehow got it to work with RTS games in a good way. Kinect seems to pushing voice commands hard and IMO PSeye and kinect should be really no different in what they can offer gamers if that's the route the are gonna take

this kinect stuff and ps eye hd, will most likely be choice to use in every game, i can't see sony enforcing developers to use it, i think both sony and microsoft will try use kinect and ps eye hd more for the apps on the system then actually games.

i just hope this time around they are both accurate in this motion controll or w.e war.

You will see that each of the platform holders will hold an advantage over each other in one area or another next gen..be that software, services, content or UI's.

I'm strictly a gamer, and media options are a distant second for what I want from a console.

Pointless spec comparisons or not...Sony will once again be my primary platform for gaming next gen, but lets not discount Microsoft's next console, because I will also purchase that if it is appealing enough.

That is totally understandable. Same could be said had you put Sony instead of Microsoft. Everybody is different. Both of these systems will be great. Would you hate me if I said I'm going to get the next Sony system? I hope not

The simple fact isThey are both powerful machines and I will be getting both like I did this gen. I have no doubt however that N4G will still be awash with the same graphics comparisons next gen, some things never change.

"War. War never changes" Nobody can guess what game this phrase was said. But it's totally accurate. Wars will still be going on after we are all dead. Whether it's console wars or real wars for that matter. And it's always profitable.

i know what you mean except it was about the xbox 360 in my case even though it was unreliable etc i still love it owned both consoles from new but the 360 is the one i'd keep if i came to the crunch where as my mate would keep the ps3

Had the PS3 been priced at $450 at launch and had a bigger launch line up of games then I would have probably never bought a 360 and would never play awesome games like Lost Oddesy, Gears, Halo, Forza, Viva Pinata, Alan Wake and Phantom Dust.

We have nothing but rumors to go on right now, but I'd suspect they are pretty comparable and nobody will have outright bragging rights. Fanboys will need something else to try and beat their chests about.

I'll just be happy for some new hardware, seems like it was the generation that wouldn't end, even though I am more than happy about all the great games, something inside of me wanted new hardware.

blah blah blah here we go again which will be more powerful, let me just say I remember back when everyone said the ps3 was more powerful than the 360, it may of been but did it really matter in regards to 3rd party games? they looked the same on both consoles, some may of looked better on ps3 and some on the 360 but that came down to which console it was built on and then who got the ports, and as far as exclusives went well you would never know if it could be done on the other console as they were inhouse games never to be ported. let me just say what ever console has more power it won't matter cos 3rd party devs will make the games look the same on both consoles they don't put in extra work to make a game look better on one over the other, just because it has more power they just port them from one to the other. and like I said exclusives will never be known, so who cares they will both look the same in regards to graphics. but fan boys will be fan boys lol.

"But this can be applied in PS Orbis? Basically to implement virtual memory management it is not necessary that there are two levels of memory, taking the top sufficient storage capacity for the image (color, depth, and stencil) buffers and textures needed for the scene and there is a lower level. For PS Orbis the caches of the GPU do not have enough storage capacity for this and the GDDR5 is a single level of memory for all of the GPU."

Is the explanation of how the memory work in the durango..and how the DME's resolve the bandwith problems...and why is impossible to calculate the "real" perfomance ...in flops of the durango...

Him also explain how the durango is amegatexturing/megamesh oriented platform

we seen this technology by lionhead and john carmak used in a demo in late 2010 and in rage from ID5

the dme's not only solve a problem that dev have in this last decade....our gpu need to have enourmous bandwith to keep the gpu in process..but at the same time our best ram (gddr5 by now) suffer of a lots of latency (300 cycles vs 20/60 cycles of a slower esram) and also...cost a lots of $

in this way u can have a big pool of slower ram and little faster pool of ram that work together with some dma inside the dme's that move everything ALSO while the gpu/cpu r working....

The orbis is more like a middle lvl pc ..with offtheshelf parts....

there r good and bad side in this....the goods .. being a console it dosnt work up a big OS and probably games and everything else is developed more on the "metal" while on pc they need to keep everything runnin on a heavy OS..and under the control of millions of API The bads..is not being a custom hardware ...suffer of all the problems that devs and tech guys already know.......high latency, hard if not impossible to reach maximum peak perfomance coz of stalls phases of the cpu/gpu, and of course the problem of have just 3. something of ram dedicated to games (one part is dedicated to the os,apps...security and stuff)

on the other side we have durango with 8 giga of dd3 + esram

that try to solve that kind of problems...

IHMO think they will hit the same perfomance and in the long run the bigger pool of ram of the durango will hit the 1 place

This is a quite interesting assessment. But all it actually says is how to get DDR3 up to GDR5 speed without spending to much money. It still won't beat GDR5.

The latency will probably be a problem with the GDR5 if they run CPU heavy (scalar) code; but then, if these rumors are true, Orbis has 4 additional compute units - basically those will run physics a magnitude faster than the CPU without taxing (the already faster) remaining 14 CUs. And then, you still have the same amount of CPUs left.

What is a bit of a mystery here is, that while the CPU cores are jaguar cores it looks like those have been customized quite a bit. Giving Sony's history with CELL and IBM, an yet again I see a reversal with MS here - they customized the SIMD units (probably even removed some, but optimized the others for gaming) - exactly what MS did with the VMX units in the Xenos.

And since this is a SoC and probably done by AMD in house, they really picked the best what they could based on their APU design and built something quite impressive. There was no mention in the Durango specs if this also applies to MS, or they used a stock APU and customized it in other areas (EDRAM, Move Engines - which are not part of any APU design).