How old is the Catholic Church?

A Protestant co-worker recently informed me that the Roman Catholic
Church was neither the first Christian Church, nor is it anywhere
near the 2,000 years old I had somehow been led to believe. Could
you possibly enlighten me?

Answers

Dear Diane,Happy Easter! --You could tell this person that her
opinion is absolutely and 100% self-serving. No reasonable discussion
can be held with persons that adamantly cling to a false premise.

The Catholic Church is exactly as old as the Papacy. The Holy
Apostle Peter was our first Pope; this is supported by every
pertinent application of Gospel proof. Only Protestants dispute this,
and all of their sects and assemblies can be traced back in recent
history. They can't point to a single bible verse that makes them
original Christians; and believe me-- IF they could find them, they'd
throw them at your face.

The major universities and cathedrals of
the western world are ALL evidence of the Catholic Church's
predating of all Protestant persuasions. These institutions all
accepted the Pope's authority. It was only after the so-called
Reformation that some of them switched to Protestantism.

The
unbroken line of descent from Saint Peter, first Pope-- thru John
Paul II, is documented in detail now, for 2000 years. No other church
has such proof of authenticity. Since Peter was appointed (Clearly,
in the Gospels) by Jesus Christ Himself-- the Catholic Church is the
same one founded by Christ Our Saviour.

Dear Diane,
So glad you asked, rather than keep this to yourself.
Eugene has done a splendid job of answering you.
I can only think to add this (which is not original to me). When such
a baseless objection is made, do not get defensive. Instead tell the
objector that he/she has the duty to prove the claim to you -- AFTER
first proving it to the editors of all the major encyclopedias of the
world, who have no trouble acknowledging the 1,970-years' age of the
Catholic Church.
God bless you.
John

Dear John, Diane, et al--The Bible Christian I mentioned (a
warmed-over Plymouth Brethren) loved to say ''Rome.'' He wouldn't
even have the basic respect to say ''You Catholics''-- his idea of
Rome was the persecutor of early Christians, and the Harlot of
Revelation, etc.,

If they try that on you-- just ask them if
they've read the 1st Chapter of Saint Paul's epistle to the Romans,
in which, thanking God he says, ''. . . Because your faith is
proclaimed all over the world.'' This is verse 8--

Incidentally, I like to think this verse was an unconscious
prophesy of our holy mother Church as it is now. ''All over
the world'' is: Universal ie., Catholic /

hi!
i'm knew to this website and i find it very interesting since i'm
Catholic myself.I believe that the church is the oldest but it
bothers me to hear that my lecturer always says that the coptic church
and not the catholic church are the oldest.i do not believe him
because i feel that there's a anti-catholic thing that's going
on.according to him and his resources the coptic church started with
saint mark in africa(north).i also feel that those who are'nt
catholic would do anything to plays the church in a negative light.

Hi, Christene. Welcome to our discussions! I see the "za" at the
end of your e-mail address. Is that for Zaire or Zambia?
I have always been curious about Egypt's Christians, but I kept
putting off reading about them until you posted your message here. By
doing some digging, I found out quite a few interesting things.
What your lecturer told you is somewhat fuzzy. I think that he is
unclear on the concepts involved here. He said "that the Coptic
Church and not the Catholic Church is the oldest ... [and that]
according to ... his resources, the Coptic Church started with Saint
Mark in Africa (North)."

As we know from Divine Revelation (Scripture and Tradition), Jesus
made St. Peter his first "vicar," the Rock on which he built his
Church. That Church -- spread throughout the world -- is known as the
"Catholic" Church, from the Greek world for "universal." But the
Catholic Church has always considered herself to be "manifest" in all
the world's diverse communities in the form of "local churches," which
we now usually call dioceses/archdioceses (in the West) or
eparchies/exarchies (in the East).

The very first "local churches" of the Catholic Church were founded by
the Apostles of Jesus, who either became those churches' bishops
(literally "overseers") or who ordained and installed disciples as
their bishops. Some of these earliest local churches were in
Jerusalem, Antioch (Syria), and Alexandria (Egypt). Also established
during the lifetimes of the Apostles were local churches in Rome,
Smyrna, Ephesus, Corinth, and other cities. St. Peter was the first
bishop of Rome. St. Mark was not one of the Apostles, but was a very
early disciple who probably knew Jesus. It is believed that he was
appointed as the first bishop of Alexandria in Egypt, and this local
church later came to be known as the CoPTic church (from the Greek
word for eGyPT [notice the similarity?]). Since the worldwide
Catholic Church considers the feast of Pentecost (fifty days after the
Resurrection) to be its "birthday," it is obvious that the Catholic
Church existed before the Coptic local church. And so ... your
lecturer can say with accuracy that the Coptic/Alexandrian local
church probably came into existence before the local church of Rome.
But you can say in return that the Catholic Church was directly
founded by Jesus and that the Lord said that St. Peter would later be
his first vicar (and universal shepherd of the Church) probably even
before St. Mark became a Christian disciple.

Though the vast majority of Egypt's 66 million inhabitants are
Moslems, there are a variety of Christian bodies in the country --
both "churches" and "ecclesial communities."
The Catholic Church (less than 1% of the population) has members of
seven different Rites (six Eastern, one Western): Maronites,
Chaldeans, Greek Byzantines, Coptic Catholics [led by Patriarch
Stiphanos II Ghattas], Armenians, Syrians, and Latins [i.e., the
western rite to which Pope John Paul II belongs].
The schismatic churches (about 5% of the population) include the
Coptic Orthodox [led by Patriarch Shenouda III], Greek Orthodox,
Syrian Orthodox, and Armenian Apostolic Churches.
Finally, there is a group of Protestant ecclesial communities, among
which the most numerous are Lutherans, Presbyterians, and
Evangelicals.

Christene, you probably noticed that I mentioned the existence of both
Coptic Catholics and Coptic Orthodox. To help us understand why there
are two separated groups of Copts, I want to quote sections of some
articles written by a usually reliable news service called Zenit.
They recently wrote a lot about this subject, because of the trip of
Pope John Paul II to Egypt, Israel, and Jordan. I hope that you will
find the following as interesting as I did ...

------------------------------

Despite its claims, France is not the "first-born daughter of the
Church." Historically, this claim actually belongs to Egypt, the first
Christian country in history. The expression "first-born daughter of
the Church," was used of France because the Gauls were the first
European nation to convert to Christianity in 495, when King Clovis
and 30,000 of his warriors embraced the faith. However, a century
earlier, Christianity was already the religion of Egypt -- 99.9% of
Egyptians converted easily, in spite of the terrible mass martyrdoms
that Christians suffered during emperor Diocletian's reign.

... Egyptian Christians are the authentic descendants of the pharaohs.
Indeed, the name "Copts," as Christians are known in this land,
designates the way in which Arabs refer to Egyptians: "Qubt," a
contraction of the Greek "Aigyptos."

The Church in Alexandria was founded by the evangelist St. Mark around
the year 40. At the end of the 1st century, 20% of the Egyptian
population was Christian. By the 2nd century, they constituted 45% of
the population ... [The Coptic calendar's "year 1" is actually 284
A.D.. That was the year that Roman emperor Diocletian came to power,
so the Copts chose the year to honor the many martyrs of the
persecution under Diocletian.]

As usually happens, the blood of martyrs became the seed of new
Christians. During the 4th century, Egypt became the land that
witnessed the birth of the first Christian monks in history. ...
After Christians suffered great upheavals, especially in 389, [the
emperor] Theodosius promulgated an edict in 392, which made
Christianity the state religion and closed pagan temples.

In 451, following the Council of Chalcedon, the Church in Alexandria
was divided. [The Council condemned the heresy of Monophysitism -- in
which Christ was believed to have only a divine nature, not also a
human nature.] This date, 451, marks the birth of the Coptic
Monophysite Church [also known as "Jacobite"] -- to which the majority
of Egyptian Christians [decided to adhere]. A minority, the
"Chalcedonites" [or Melkites], remained [united to the pope]. Today's
Coptic Orthodox, the heirs of [the Jacobites], explain that they never
actually held the Monophysite heresy ... Instead, [they claim that]
they held (and still hold) that the human and divine natures of Christ
combined to form one "Christ nature."

The Arab-Muslim conquest of Egypt, which took place between 639 and
642, found Christians divided into 3 million Copts [separated from
Rome] and 200,000 Chalcedonites. Since then, there has been a very
complex coexistence between Muslims and Christians. ...

At present the Coptic Orthodox Church embraces 93% of Egyptian
Christians. Their leader is Pope Shenouda III, [who is considered the]
117th successor of St. Mark ... He has made a great effort to
encourage the rebirth of Egyptian monasticism and favor ecumenical
dialogue. He met Pope Paul VI in 1973.

The Coptic Catholic Church is one of the smallest Catholic communities
in the East. The patriarchy was [reborn] officially in 1895 [by
permission of Pope Leo XIII], although since 1741 Apostolic Vicars
have succeeded one another to lead the few thousand Copts who [chose
to remain united with the pope]. [According to the Catholic
Encyclopedia, both in 1442 and in 1713, the Coptic Orthodox patriarchs
had re-united their church with the Catholic Church, recognizing the
primacy of the pope, "but in neither case was the union of long
duration."] Today the Coptic Catholic Church has some 200,000
faithful and, since 1986, is led by Patriarch Stephanos II Ghattas.
...

-------------------------------

The Coptic Orthodox ... stress that they never held the [heresy of]
Monophysitism ... Copts believe that the Lord is perfect in his
divinity, and he is perfect in his humanity, but his divinity and his
humanity were united in one nature called "the nature of the incarnate
word," which was reiterated by Saint Cyril of Alexandria. Copts,
thus, believe in two natures -- "human" and "divine" -- that are
united in one nature "without mingling, without confusion, and without
alteration." These two natures "did not separate for a moment or the
twinkling of an eye." [According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, the
immediate successor of St. Cyril of Alexandria, Patriarch "Dioscurus
(444-455), was deposed and excommunicated by the Council of Calcedon
(451)" because of his Monophysitism.]

Coptic Pope Shenouda III, the "Successor of St. Mark," actively seeks
Christian unity, and calls the separation largely semantic. "To the
Coptic Church, faith is more important than anything, and others must
know that semantics and terminology are of little importance to
us."

-------------------------------------

The Copts are spread out between Egypt and Ethiopia. This is a
community that has kept the faith in good times and in bad
since the Arab invasion in 640. Precisely because of their fidelity to
Christian worship, the members of the Coptic ethnic
group can be considered today the most racially pure descendants of
the primitive inhabitants of ancient Egypt. It was their
language which made possible the deciphering of Egyptian
hieroglyphics. ...

Today the Coptic Church is characterized by its adherence and constant
attention to Sacred Scripture, rather than theological
disputations on heresies ... At present there are 24 Jacobite
dioceses ...

-------------------------------------------

[The Coptic Catholic community] is not very numerous, but it is vital.
It has just over 200,000 faithful out of a total of 66 million
Egyptians. It has one priest for every 500 inhabitants and is active
in 400 day-care centers, primary schools, and secondary schools, 3
higher institutes and universities, 13 hospitals, 43 orphanages, and
over 100 out-patient clinics ...

--------------------------------------------

[Earlier this year,] John Paul II visited the headquarters of the
Coptic Orthodox patriarchy where he received a very warm welcome. In
the presence of a large representation from this Christian community,
Pope Shenouda, successor of St. Mark in the See of Alexandria,
addressed St. Peter's successor spontaneously and affectionately ...
Shenouda III recalled his meeting with Pope Paul VI in 1973 and the
joint doctrinal declaration they signed on that occasion ... John
Paul II also improvised his reply. With a smile he said that all those
who came with him to Egypt feel at home, since Mark wrote his Gospel
for the Romans. After travelling with St. Paul for a time, Mark came
to serve Peter. Many say that his Gospel represents primarily the
memoirs of the first Pope.

--------------------------------------------

[A priest who was present when the pope met the patriarch said the
following:] "To tell the truth, the meeting with Shenouda III and the
Copts was above all of a personal nature, as it sought to break the
ice of mistrust, and to offer expressions of cordiality and affection.
From my perspective, the significant words of these meetings were what
Shenouda said to the Pope: 'We love you.' And the Pope's reply, who
added spontaneously, 'We also love Pope Shenouda.' I think this was
the fundamental moment of the meeting."

[Most Christians are unaware that, since the meeting of Shenouda and
Paul VI in the 1970s, there has been quiet dialog between Catholics
and Coptic Orthodox. I found a page that tells of the interchurch
activity
(http://www.prounione.urbe.it/dia-int/oo-rc_copt/e_oo-rc_copt-info.htm
l) and another that contains the text of an important 1988 agreement
between Catholics and Coptic Orthodox. You and your lecturer may want
to read this.

---------------------------------------------------
[In case you want to do a lot more reading on the Pope's trip to Egypt
(including the texts of some of his addresses), you can find the
series of articles from which I quoted (above), "bound" together at
one Internet site: http://www.angelfire.com/tx/filial/egypt.html
]

Christene, as the pope said to the Coptic Orthodox people earlier this
year, speaking in both Arabic and English: "As-salam 'alaikum -- Peace
be with you!"

Indeed Our Lord appoints Peter as his principal representative. All
Christians followed his leadership in his days. Nero killed him
because he was the main leader of the new religion.
Once the LORD resurrected and ascended to the Heavens, not to long
after the disciples were gathered in the upper room when a strong
wind came about and the Holy Spirit felled upon them (read first
chapters of the Book of ACTS. )
This is the key element for receiving our GRACE and SALVATION.
The LAMB was offered in sacrifice, resurrected, ascended unto Heavens
send his Holy Spirit...and from that moment on...Those that will
accept that JESUSCHRIST as his SAVIOR, is Babtized for the remmission
of sins. this is what PETER our First POPE ( POPE, PAPA,
PATER=FATHER ) - Baptize in the name of JESUS....ACTS 2:38
Thee who have understanding, understand. Praise The Lord, Host of
Hosts. MAy HIS ETERNAL BLESSINGS walk with all of us until his coming.

“Despite its claims, France is not the "first-born daughter of
the Church." Historically, this claim actually belongs to Egypt, the
first Christian country in history. The expression "first-born
daughter of the Church," was used of France because the Gauls were
the first European nation to convert to Christianity in 495, when
King Clovis and 30,000 of his warriors embraced the faith. However, a
century earlier, Christianity was already the religion of Egypt --
99.9% of Egyptians converted easily, in spite of the terrible mass
martyrdoms that Christians suffered during emperor Diocletian's
reign.” (John)

Actually Armenia was the first Christian country in history.
Armenia adopted Christianity as its official religion in 301 AD, at a
time when Christians were still being persecuted across the border in
the Roman Empire. The church in Armenia was then in union with the
entire Catholic church.

The Gauls (the ancient Celtic race which inhabited what is now
France) converted to Christianity before the Western Empire collapsed
in 476 AD. Clovis (Louis) and his followers were not Gauls, but
Franks , the Germanic barbarians who invaded and took over Gaul.
The Franks were not even the first European nation OUTSIDE THE ROMAN
EMPIRE to convert to Christianity. (The Irish were, about 60 years
earlier.) But the conversion of Clovis and the Franks was regarded as
a very important, because it showed that the collapse of the Western
Roman Empire did not mean the end of the Church, as many had
predicted. (Nations and empires come and go, but the Catholic church
remains to the end of time.) This is what was originally meant by
calling France “the Church’s eldest daughter”. The idea was amplified
in the following centuries by the fact that France probably produced
more Catholic saints and scholars than any other country. (Italy was
not a single country until 1870.)