Group Gear in New Expansion vs EoK

That shouldn't be too hard to see though.
I agree with you in that a new expansion should not outdate the previous expansion's one.
Though i also think the "gap" - and insofar ANY thread about gear and "distance in gear" (between expansions and in general) IS about a gap, in one aspect or another - is too big.
The increases in raid-gear should be less, the increases in group gear should be kept up for a little while so that the distance between raiders and groupers is less.
Why?
Because this is the only viable way i see to make the groupcontent "challenging" for groupers and raiders alike (or at least: less trivial for the raiders while still doable for the groupers).

The "pro" to outdating the prevous expansions' gear is that they "force" people into the same zones, as was said above.
However, that is also the biggest "con" to it, but not the only one.
Equally bad is that this approach, as they took with EoK, makes raiding the past expansions a moot thing.
Even gearing apps with current expansion's group gear vs. last expansions' raid gear is a two-edged sword.

During last year's summer, we had open raids to the end-zone in CotF and Arx.
One for certain items/raid currency only, one for fun and actual upgrades for groupers - so incentives to join were there.
This year, we didn't have those open raids for a handful of reasons - one of them having been that TBM gear isn't exactly "worth it" compared to the rotting EoK group gear that's constantly being called in general.
And the more "casual" guilds have no choice but to raid the current expansion or give up raiding alltogether basically, due to the same issue that their members will be even less inclined to show up for raids that is on par or (speaking about foci mostly) slightly better than the group gear they already have.

So from outdating the last expansion's by the current one, the community as a whole suffers in more than one way.

t1 is obtainable by anyone for the most part, as is t2. T3 is progression, raid is raid. Require progression to get to the filthy casual raid zone.

This gives the raiders a slight upgrade, something to do from last expansion's raids to current expansion's raids, and is not trivial content. At the same time, it is available for casuals to potentially get if they either have enough friends, or, if they are fully t3 geared or around there, they could potentially 1 group the zone.

Another thing they should do for raiders on current expansion group content is offer something that entices them to the zone - augs.

Augs are just enhancements to gear. I think allowing many groupable aug gear upgrades from last expansion would be great.

Allowing groupers the same augs as raiders doesn't level the playing field and it doesn't make a casual anything like a raider.

so, there could be groupable augs that immediately out perform previous raid augs, then do the gear thing I talked about with PoW idea.

so, new expansion pops.

Raiders:
T1-T3 for augs - most gear would rot
T3.5 we'll call it (Plane of War type zone) for gear (upgrade from previous raid content, but not by much. Make sure not every piece is upgraded so there is still relevancy in previous year's top raids)
New Raid for all other gear

Groupers:
T1-T3 for gear and augs
T3.5 for gear, if they are able - this could also maybe work as casual raiding guild
New raid gear - will never see it

“I'm not totally sure what point you are making. This thread isn't about a gap. All I'm asking is that tanks can keep the raid gear they earned for longer than the first day of Ring of Scale. If this is by 10ac, that's fine with me. I just don't think we should be dumping our raid gear we worked 12 months to earn in the trash can the minute we shell out 30 bucks, and kill a few easy named mobs.”

If its an upgrade why is that bad? Sentimentality for the old gear you so lovingly collected?

“I'm not totally sure what point you are making. This thread isn't about a gap. All I'm asking is that tanks can keep the raid gear they earned for longer than the first day of Ring of Scale. If this is by 10ac, that's fine with me. I just don't think we should be dumping our raid gear we worked 12 months to earn in the trash can the minute we shell out 30 bucks, and kill a few easy named mobs.”

So in other words something completely alien to EQ development...
Heh dream on mad fool dream on

“"the gap" is one of the inherent problems EQ has.
Not because it is there, but because it is far too big.
People complain that group content is trivial, even "demand" **** like "elite zones" so they can find a challenge.
This is because devs cannot cater to both the overpowered raid geared crowd and to the "normal" group geared folks at the same time.”

Hate to break it to you. Group content is trivial even with group gear. Yes, I do play alts that are fully group geared and still find a severe lack of any challenge (this was true in TBM, TDS and CotF as well as EoK). It's not the "gap" causing balance issues. It's design philosophy catering content to the lowest common denominator -- casual players that don't maximize the use of their abilities. There should be zones tuned to those types as well as a zone or two for those that push limits and learn to use all the available tools.[/quote]

There is such content - missions, which can, indeed, be very difficult, because they can be made to be group versions of raids. These missions do also give rewards beyond the normal, through achievements.

“There is such content - missions, which can, indeed, be very difficult, because they can be made to be group versions of raids. These missions do also give rewards beyond the normal, through achievements.”

Every EoK mission was easily boxable, including achievements. Many the very first time I tried. TBM had some missions that were more difficult to box, but were still rather trivial with an actual group.

That said, I'm not a fan of missions. They're typically something that need to be done a certain way. They're scripts and dictate how you play them. That has little replay value to me. They also tend to suck for exp/aa beyond the one time achievement reward. Same with HAs. They're a do this, then do this thing. I want challenging open world content that I have more options with. Not a game telling me what to do.

“There is such content - missions, which can, indeed, be very difficult, because they can be made to be group versions of raids. These missions do also give rewards beyond the normal, through achievements.”

If people in the group are doing 10k DPS, using only group heals or Ardent Light, sure... some things are going to be pretty damn hard. There are definitely a lot of players that simply don't use the vast majority of their abilities, spells and discs available to them. Even when shown what they're missing, they're happy with complacency.

Play characters like every one of them is a main! Learn their abilities, learn the burns, learn everything about them and you'll find things fairly easy.

“I'm not totally sure what point you are making. This thread isn't about a gap. All I'm asking is that tanks can keep the raid gear they earned for longer than the first day of Ring of Scale. If this is by 10ac, that's fine with me. I just don't think we should be dumping our raid gear we worked 12 months to earn in the trash can the minute we shell out 30 bucks, and kill a few easy named mobs.”

umm... isn't how it works for raiders and groupers since the game started?
All gear goes obsolete in a new expac. Its always been that way.
What you are looking for is to be superior to group gear for years without further raiding - which is stupid.

“umm... isn't how it works for raiders and groupers since the game started?”

No it isn't how it worked in the past.
Raid gear became "obsolete" by new raid gear - but that is not what the talk was about.
Even when a HUGE leap was first introduced (Luclin or PoP i don't remember), guilds had previous expansion's mobs and zones to raid for "worthwhile" gear.
What EoK introduced was indeed "new".
The group gear basically outdated the previous expansion's raid gear.
Something that hasn't happened before.

“No it isn't how it worked in the past.
Raid gear became "obsolete" by new raid gear - but that is not what the talk was about.
Even when a HUGE leap was first introduced (Luclin or PoP i don't remember), guilds had previous expansion's mobs and zones to raid for "worthwhile" gear.
What EoK introduced was indeed "new".
The group gear basically outdated the previous expansion's raid gear.
Something that hasn't happened before.”

You'd be incorrect in thinking EoK group gear outdated the previous expansions raid gear. Especially with DPS. A couple stats here and there may be out of whack, but try parsing full group gear vs even half TBM raid gear. You'll most definitely do more DPS with the raid gear.

I think the heroic's are about right but gaining 36 AC going from TBM raid to EoK group makes ya go hmmm. Hopefully it's a little better balanced like the numbers he posted.”

There were only a couple slots on a few classes that had AC gains on group gear from what I saw. HP was still slightly better with TBM raid and focus was far better. If all you care about is AC, then maybe you would have taken a few group items.