The people of Salem headed into the woods to look for answers. Whoever, or whatever, they were looking for, they were sure to find answers there.

After walking around in circles for what seemed like hours, they came upon a small clearing. In the middle stood a single tree with a treehouse. A hand-painted, bedazzled sign read, "Abby's Place - No losers allowed!" There was no evidence of witchcraft, but still, something was odd. Perhaps it was the smell of expensive perfume floating through the air, perhaps it was the sound of nasally-voiced boy bands singing. They decided to investigate.

Inside, Admetus was scrapbooking on the floor in the middle of a adorably decorated room. It was every teenage girl's dream.

He was surrounded by photos of the dead bodies of everyone who had been mysteriously murdered in the past few days. Carefully, he selected a particularly grotesque one of Zark and pasted it into his scrapbook. He didn't seem to notice everyone else there.

Finally, someone spoke up. "What the hell?!"

Admetus whirled around. "This isn't what it looks like! I swear!"

But it was too late. He had been caught red-handed.

Admetus somehow broke through the small crowd and shimmied down the ladder. Quickly, the rest of the town followed suit and chased after him.

They almost caught up to him, when suddenly - THWACK! A large yellow object zoomed into Admetus. It immediately dematerialized and returned to the proper time period in which it belonged.

Admetus had been run over by a school bus.

Admetus - lynched - alpha wolf

Abigail Williams - You are the alpha wolf. You cannot be killed until all the wolves are killed.

How many factions are there? The hell is the voting going to look like? I UNDERSTAND NOTHING.

E: Although thinking about it, if we'd lynched a neutral and Admetus mauled a human...we'd end up at Final 3 with a wolf, a human, and JRS. Wolves win. Even if the GA got it right, that may have happened here at Final 4 as well.

I'M SO GOOD AT FAILURE!

E2: The wheels on the bus drip blood blood blood...

I'm a clueless human. You guys do all the hard work while I go . Then I'll vote for *fluttering handwave gesture*

that is a M. Night Shyamalan twist right there. Completely did not see Admetus as a lone wolf.

So many questions, and I'm not even sure how to frame them.

Why didn't JRs come out as non-Alpha immediately? Will there be a maul tonight? Does this other faction have a kill power ? Have they been alternating the maul? Or will we fulfill a win condition by lynching the wrong person? How are we at lynch or lose? Which side am I on? Mechanically how does this work? Conceptually how does this work?

Edit: why did Admetus defend Jrs so much yesterday. Why didn't he let us lynch the fake-alpha?

Pretty much exactly what Rictus was saying. sphenodont clearly called out JRS as the alpha, but I expect the wolves to lie. I can see JRS not refuting that if he didn't want to tip our hand to the neutrals, and I don't think I would've bought a claim that there was another protected character on Day 4 (HH/dfer might've been able to convince me by claiming, but JRS didn't know that).

This feels like an easy

#Vote for: JRS

finish, which is just totally anticlimactic.

Last edited by DastardlyOldMan on 15 Jan 2017, 18:24:45, edited 1 time in total.

Rictus wrote:Edit: why did Admetus defend Jrs so much yesterday. Why didn't he let us lynch the fake-alpha?

Working together somehow? That might be a better explanation for the lynch in lose day before yesterday - typically, if there's a vig in play, you get the LOL after the vig fires (dfer's was a daytime use - "declared publicly").

Hellheart wrote:How many factions are there? The hell is the voting going to look like? I UNDERSTAND NOTHING.

Y'know, I generally like the lot of you, so let me get serious in this game for once and spell some things out here:

First of all, I think your situation in particular is rather lugubrious. You can't lynch me or you'll lose. So it's up to you folks to decide who the witch is.

Second, I think I know why Admetus didn't counter-claim the alpha wolf. Sphenodont was drawing heat early and with only two wolves, he couldn't afford to lose his shield too early. Not sure if the wolves were entirely aware of the third faction, but with only two of them in a 14 player game, in sure they thought something was up from the beginning.

I wasn't aware of a third faction until rekard was killed. I actually was trying to hunt wolves with the lot of you, but, under the assumption that I was alpha wolf, any serious vote on my part would look like I was targeting a human. I had a very odd read on rekard, so that's why I planned a late snipe to get him. I was half right; he was off, but not a wolf.

So here we are today. I can again assure you that I am the wrong lynch. As a sign of good faith I will place a

1) 3 Humans, 1 Neutral (likely) OR 2 Humans, 1 Neutral, 1 Neutral (less likely). This requires an inherited nightkill or leave condition - which makes more sense - or a conversion, which makes less sense but is still a possibility2) 2 humans, 2 neutrals. Neutrals here win by killing a specific person OR by having the majority, not just parity.

At 7 people (potential lylo), the maximum number of non-neutrals we could lose was 4At 5 people (potential lylo), the maximum number of non-neutrals we could lose was - hopefully - 2.

Can Scenario 1 even exist in this situation?

It can't be a single leaves-the-game neutral because we would just win right now, right?

E: Which scenario we're at here is CRUCIALLY IMPORTANT in terms of who we can/cannot vote to lynch.

E2: ...Or is it? How likely is it that we're at 2/2 with an inherited nightkill?

Q: Hellheart how are you human as the wife of dferr. A: Well, I'm not a wolf.

Don't pull part of my answer out of context

P1) I did not start as a wolf because that's ridiculously unfairP2) If I start as a neutral, I do not risk myself on Day 2.P3) If I start as a human, I am not going to be converted given what happened on Day 2 and my track record with getting myself lynchedC) Therefore, I am a human

You can dispute Premise 2 because at that point I couldn't die, but there's still no incentive for me to stick my neck out. That's why I can't prove that I'm not a neutral. It's simply uncharacteristic of me to dick around as any kind of special role.

You'll realize I never actually claimed it either. It was just assumed because of the rules thread and what transpired after the lynch. I didn't quite understand what was going on, but I'm not permitted to discuss my role so I did not confirm or deny any accusations.

If you're human, the only role you couldn't claim was "neutrals kill me if they target me, otherwise I can't die." But I can't see that fitting into a game with wolves as well because it really fucks up parity and their ability to maul.

Lynch cancellation doesn't really fit the roles we've seen so far. If you had claimed multiple lives, I would have believed you. That's the only human role that makes sense to me.

E: But you could have also claimed those at that time. You let everyone believe you were the alpha to protect SOMETHING.

E2: Retracting

Last edited by Hellheart on 14 Jan 2017, 21:51:15, edited 1 time in total.

I am a straight human with no secret goal or win condition. So I know that *I* am at lynch or lose. I also know that one, two, or even all three of you have your own victory condition that you are trying for.

Here are the instructions from day 1:

So, in this game, rather than hunting for witches, you're looking for those among you who are trying to divide and conquer.

Well, I found witches (or rather kids playing at witches) and a supernatural rekard. And a JRs who can't die.----------------------My gut tells me that there is one player left who is trying to kill another one of us. If they succeed via lynch or other special ability then they win.

So Hellheart why would dferrantino be protecting you? I think you are the target. But the question is do *I* want you to die or live today.

#Vote for: redacted: Hellheart

.

Last edited by Rictus on 15 Jan 2017, 05:46:07, edited 1 time in total.

I honestly thought he was a wolf. I was not aware of a third faction until he was killed. I knew something strange was in the air but I was not aware of the specifics.

In regards to personal victories: I have two paths to victory (both are parity related). They are both satisfied if I survive tonight. However, I am a mislynch with regards to Lynch or Lose. I seriously doubt that there are any non-parity related win conditions in this game, so I can tell you that lynching me tonight leaves a non-wolf maul that will land on a human. Humans lose via parity with one human, one non-wolf.

I honestly thought he was a wolf. I was not aware of a third faction until he was killed. I knew something strange was in the air but I was not aware of the specifics.

In regards to personal victories: I have two paths to victory (both are parity related). They are both satisfied if I survive tonight. However, I am a mislynch with regards to Lynch or Lose. I seriously doubt that there are any non-parity related win conditions in this game, so I can tell you that lynching me tonight leaves a non-wolf maul that will land on a human. Humans lose via parity with one human, one non-wolf.

He would do this as the last neutral. Defend himself, say that he can't tell his role, whatever will get us off of him. What throws me off is TWO parity-related conditions for personal victory. That's fucking weird to just make up.

He's saying that he doesn't even care who wins, as long as he doesn't die. We can lynch a human or a neutral and he wins both ways. That's a super weird thing to claim.

I remember when Admetus said that we'd lost because he couldn't convince me of the obvious scenario. I paced around for like 45 minutes, angry at myself. The obvious scenario was 2 neutrals. And I was so focused - SO FOCUSED - on how human DOM was that I never thought about how fucking off Rictus was being.

Admetus and I were both really confused when Rictus voted for JRS and wouldn't move. In my head I was screaming "what the hell are you DOING, Rictus?" It was from this pair of posts:

Rictus wrote:Ok so I'm convinced that JRS is the wrong lynch.

I am also 95% certain that he is the only remaining wolf. Otherwise we would be at lynch-or-lose.

I am 100% certain that Hellheart and DOM are on opposite teams. One of you is a neutral.

I am human.

If I follow that logic train, that means that Admetus must be a neutral allied with Hellheart or DOM.

(But a 3 neutral 2 wolf setup with 9 humans seems unbalanced.)

Hellheart please let me know why you are a human who was being protected. What is your special situation? I accept that you are dferrantinos wife, but you could be a neutral... dferrantino specifically says you are "not a witch". He doesn't say "human".

Edit: just wanted to say that I am pulling key bits of info from all 3 of you posting today. Some good stuff.

So my own problem with reviewing the previous days: neutrals hunting wolves are just as human looking as normals hunting wolves.

1. There's only 1 wolf left.

2. Standard rules say that humans win when the wolves are dead.

Going to stay with #Vote for: JRsthethird

To be fair, these posts are 3 hours apart. A lot could've happened in his head between those posts. Going from "okay, so there's 2 neutrals and 1 wolf, lynching the wolf makes no sense here" to "you know what, I think we win if we lynch this wolf" is possible. But only if he ignored EVERYTHING that DOM and I were just talking about. We had ALL BUT PROVEN that the parity threat to the humans came from the neutrals. We had considered conversion, we had run scenarios, we looked at how we could have been at potential lynch-or-lose at F5 and F7.

All of that gets posted to the thread in that 3-hour window. And instead of interacting with us, or trying to make further sense of things, or...GAH. Like WHY ARE YOU SO DENSE? I remember how you were in Ragnarok! I remember how much we flailed over what to do! You don't just sit there and keep quiet when you're fucking confused! You certainly don't completely ignore everyone else, give up, reverse your decision, and then just vote for the worst possible choice out of everybody!

I voted for Admetus because he seemed to already know what the situation was. He had information that the humans did not. It colored how he talked about things, what he would focus on, and how he would come to his decisions.

I moved away from DOM because it felt like we were in the same boat: we had no fucking idea what was going on. But by God, we were going to do everything in our power not to be wrong.

During those three hours two things happened while I was away from the thread:

1) you guys started going down a rabbit hole about conversions. Honestly if this game is a conversion game then I don't care. I'm not going to spend brain cycles trying to figure out how and what is on which team.

2) I knew that at the beginning of the game there were only two wolf roles listed in the rules thread. So the longer I mulled things over and thought about it, I realized that everyone else has a role and a mission except me. so instead of continuing the game so some third faction could win, I'd rather lynch the last wolf and win.

Thus, my decision to lynch JRs.

So now we are here.

JRS has a role and a goal and he is playing for his team(?). But he's refusing to pick a lynch.You have more info than me. You have a special power that you haven't revealed. WHY WERE YOU PROTECTED?DOM I don't know about anymore. The last wolf sure wanted to kill him pretty badly. And the worst part is that the human team has not been given a light in the darkness.

So what I'm expecting is that over the next hour or so the teams / opponents will start to line up and I will be the one in the middle, the lone vote that can go anywhere because I'm not on a team.

Rictus wrote:You have more info than me. You have a special power that you haven't revealed. WHY WERE YOU PROTECTED?

I was protected because it made sense both in terms of flavor and in terms of gameplay.

We know the following, assuming no conversion:

There was a wolf team comprised of two wolves. This team has a maul.

Sphenodont, who had a +1 vote power

Admetus, who was an alpha with no other powers

There is a neutral team comprised of, almost certainly, two neutrals. This team does not have a maul.

rekard, who had a vote-buying power

an unknown player with an unknown power

There is a human team comprised of everyone else (10), or almost everyone else (9).

Every Puritan that wasn't listed in the rules thread had an ability that affected the voting

The only exception to the above was John Proctor. He was a suicide vigilante, and his wife can't die as long as he's alive.

The only role in the rules thread that has yet to appear is the GA. He is still alive, and assuming no conversion he is lock human.

Here are the problems with the above setup:

Alphas are traditionally part of a larger group of wolves for a reason. If the alpha is discovered early on, the other wolf needs to play perfectly. Otherwise, the wolves always lose at Final 3.

The neutral team is even more vulnerable than the wolves. If a member gets hit by the maul, the jig is up and they're extremely unlikely to make it to the end.

If both wolves die early on due to sheer luck, the game gets unreasonably long

You can fix the first two issues by giving the neutral team an Alpha as well; this is a superior choice to giving the neutrals a 3rd player, which would simply expose them even earlier and weaken the humans. You fix the last issue by having the neutrals take over the maul when the wolves die. This means the human win condition has to be the elimination of everyone who can nightkill.

This presents a new problem: the human are now underpowered. 4 players split into 2 separate factions is way more survivable than 4 wolves, but they're up against two Alphas here. Also, vote-affecting abilities on humans are notoriously likely to kill other humans. The humans need something to balance things out again.

The suicide vig helps, but it's a suicide vig. What would REALLY help is if the humans had their own alpha. This would, again, also help protect the wolf and neutral alphas. If you link that alpha to just one player, it creates an interesting dynamic where two players will look like yet another faction but are, in fact, both human. That helps hide the neutral faction even further.

What threw me off until today is that there appears to be no other vote-affecting powers. At F5 there was me and JRS, who are both presumably Alphas; there was a human GA; and there were 2 other players. At least one of those players should be able to influence the voting, even as a neutral. And yet there's been no voting manipulation at all.

But if JRS is an oddball can't-easily-die neutral and the remaining unknown player is actually the neutral alpha, this makes perfect sense.

Protection from everything until one or more other players die is a power in and of itself. It's probably the strongest ability in Werewolf. You don't add MORE powers to that.

E: The other issue with voting me is that it only makes sense if I'm a neutral. Otherwise, you're voting for a human. Which is what you are in fact doing, but whatever.

But if I'm a neutral, I have to be on rekard's team. Someone has to be on rekard's team, and it doesn't look like that's JRS. If I'm on rekard's team, I should be protected by rekard, not some random human.

The other problem is that you're claiming human but NOT claiming to be the GA. Therefore, you should have a vote-manipulating power. But you should have used it by now if that's the case.

E2: You also seem to have conveniently forgotten that the only non-voting post from Seer-Blindsniper was this one:

Blindsniper wrote:At work so posting from phone ( it's also a retared blizzard out today so I'm dog fucking as there is no cars at my shop)

It's day 3 and noon and rear and zark are quiet.... odd. Looking at votes either DOM or zark was Cads night 1 double vote target....It's too quiet in here someone speak up.hellheart us machines gotta stick together

Starting to feel like a human again (enough Tim Horton's can fix anything. . . . on an unrelated note, I need to call maintenance because my entire apartment is vibrating).

HH -> I'm OK with "metagaming" in terms of considering what's overpowered and underpowered and interpreting possibilities based on the game rules. And honestly, the messaging you were doing was borderline, but I was in a really pissy mood because of outside-of-game stuff, apologies for beating you up over that.

Nothing here that really jumps out at me; I'm not a huge fan of:"So the longer I mulled things over and thought about it, I realized that everyone else has a role and a mission except me."followed by the GA claim where it's at.

FCM says that these are the "potential" roles in the game, and every one of them has been seen. I'd be going on a limb to say that only that role was on her potential list and not included. On the other hand, lots of protected characters already.

I still feel like we're overthinking, and that JRS is spitting out anything he can to keep himself alive. Then again, we overthought a lot of shit yesterday, and I think we ended up being mainly ~right on it. Having two different paths to parity could explain a lot about how we were really at lynch or lose this whole time.

And when I said "role and mission " I should have said "goal and mission" or "team and mission"

I think it's obvious that we are playing an "everyone's special" version. So that's why I continue to believe that Hellheart has an ability or a special role that still hasn't been fleshed out. And you do too, I think.

I do not have any powers beyond simply not dying as long as dferrantino was alive. If I had any other power, it would be a vote manipulation power - which I would have used - or it would have been something nasty - which I would have also used.

I figured you were the GA, Rictus, but I started getting super nervous because you refused to claim it. I wasn't about to actually vote you until somebody friggin' claimed GA. If DOM claimed GA convincingly, you would've had to dig yourself out of a hole.

DOM, what's your power?

---

I'm not sure why stdio used his power on himself, but it really looked like that's what happened.

I'm human. Everyone must, in fact, concede that I'm human unless they are willing to assert one of the following:1) Blindsniper's a chatty fellow who makes unprompted non-voting posts. So that didn't have to be a peek post.OR2) I am both an Alpha and a Godfather. And apparently also a Neutral.

#2 is a stretch, but at least it isn't outright denying reality like #1 would be.

----

JRS is effectively claiming neutral. He hasn't bothered to hide that at all. He's defended himself fairly well, considering.

---

If DOM is human, JRS is the only neutral and we simply lynch him by default. If DOM is neutral, we're choosing between him and JRS unless Rictus believes that we ALL are neutral, like he's asserted before.

I'm certainly neutral, in the dictionary sense of the word. My only real enemies here are the wolves, and they're dead. So I just need to survive and I will win. Who wins with me? That's for you folks to decide.

I have the opposite power of Ryvvn; I can denounce someone and ties will always break against them. I've used it today on JRS, so if we're going somewhere else, we need to do so in some kind of unison.