I felt that what I wanted to bring up from that paper belonged in this forum, so here we are. You don't have to read the paper in order to be in this discussion, obviously, but it was definitely a good read. In fact, only a few things of which I am about to ask relate to the paper. Mods, although I do feel this topic fits in well here, it could work in the "Therevada in the Modern World" forum. Please move it if you feel it would be better suited there.

I would like to bring up a few questions about ordination and monasticism in general that I've been having for as long as I have been studying and practicing Buddhism (3 years). Specifically I would like to discuss how men and women from Europe, North/South America, Australia go about choosing where they ordain as a Therevadan monk or nun. Within this, I would like to discuss the current state of the overall Buddhist monastic tradition in western countries as it applies to the native people of those countries and what the options are for ordination in their own country.

This thread is for all of us. I do have opinions of what I am about to ask and I do have a few answers to these questions. I will gladly state them as this thread goes on, though I am by no means a scholar on the subject. In fact I know relatively little about most of this. Mainly, I just think that this is something that we can all benefit from, and correct me if I am wrong, I do not think we have a thread in which all these questions are addressed together.

Firstly...why does it seem, I say "seem" because it is the impression I've gotten from many directions, why does it seem that for serious ordination one must go to Southeast Asia (Thailand, Burma, Sri Lanka, etc.)? Why not in their own country? What are the difficulties of ordination in these western countries? Limited number of Therevadan monasteries? Lack of space? Lack of monasteries that accept westerners? Or is there such a limited amount of westerners looking to ordain and therefore there are few options in these western countries? Is it just that the western monastic tradition is still in its infancy?

Secondly...and this question has spawned from the paper in the other thread - what are the opinions of monasteries in western countries, with mostly western monks, that have abbots of western origin that maintain cultural traditions from the Southeast Asian countries in which they were trained? Do the junior monastics upset by these cultural influences have a good reason to be critical? Should they try to change the way the abbots run the monasteries to make them less culturally influenced? Or should they move along to a situation that better suits what they are looking for considering they knew they were entering a monastery in which is rooted in the Thai forest tradition?

Thirdly...what can be said of the overall western monastic tradition within western countries? Is there one to speak of? It seems very limited. Does it lack anything as compared to the eastern tradition? If so, why? Would the lack of awareness and participation by the majority of laypeople in these countries pose a problem? Although we are primarily concerned with Therevada, perhaps some information on the status of other Buddhist traditions can help this aspect of the discussion.

Fourthly...what does everyone think about the establishment of a less culturally influenced monastic tradition in these western countries. Is there one? Should there be one? In my very humble opinion, Buddhism has been affected by the different cultures in the various countries in which it is practiced. And therefore the monastic community in the different countries do have some differences. How does/will western culture positively or negatively affect the western monastic tradition/community as it develops? It begs the question - should culture be separated from monasticism as much as possible?

Lastly and a tad hypothetically speaking…would you rather ordain in your own country if you could? Would it be more comfortable? Would it be easier? What are some of the things you would like to see in a monastery in your own country? What can be done to develop a larger monastic tradition in the west? Where do we go from here?

I hope I have stated all these questions in a polite and uncomplicated manner. Feel free to expand beyond what I have asked as long as it pertains somewhat to the overall point of this thread.

SDC wrote:Firstly...why does it seem, I say "seem" because it is the impression I've gotten from many directions, why does it seem that for serious ordination one must go to Southeast Asia (Thailand, Burma, Sri Lanka, etc.)? Why not in their own country? What are the difficulties of ordination in these western countries? Limited number of Therevadan monasteries? Lack of space? Lack of monasteries that accept westerners? Or is there such a limited amount of westerners looking to ordain and therefore there are few options in these western countries? Is it just that the western monastic tradition is still in its infancy?

There's certainly no shortage of postulants (in the good monasteries), but the problem is that the West is the frontier. Every monastery in the west is an oasis - If the water turns fetid (and it does, periodically) then where do you go?

In the East one can go where one likes essentially, if the conditions turn to custard, then it's really no problem - You just pack your bags and go to one of the other 100 places nearby. Almost the whole population are faithful of monks and yogis and are very willing to help you with any problems you might have. The East affords one a freedom of choice that is not found in the small number of Western sanctuaries.

The Ajahn Chah lineage certainly has a lot of money, and that has ensured that it's Monks who are 5+ vassa can essentially go where they like, but the wealth of the lineage is dependent upon conditions and I wouldn't be surprised if all of these lay-committees and associations that support them, will in time (due to worsening economic conditions and the scarcity of oil) be caught with their pants down. But what about the East? Well in many regions it's basically agrarian - The west could collapse altogether and in some places people wouldn't really bat an eye lid. So in my eyes at least it offers the prospect of long term sustainability in terms of the four requisites.

mettaJack

"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

SDC wrote:Secondly...and this question has spawned from the paper in the other thread - what are the opinions of monasteries in western countries, with mostly western monks, that have abbots of western origin that maintain cultural traditions from the Southeast Asian countries in which they were trained? Do the junior monastics upset by these cultural influences have a good reason to be critical? Should they try to change the way the abbots run the monasteries to make them less culturally influenced? Or should they move along to a situation that better suits what they are looking for considering they knew they were entering a monastery in which is rooted in the Thai forest tradition?

It seems to me that it is tricky to figure out what aspects are "cultural" and what aspects are a sensible way of making sure that the newly-ordained bhikkhus get on the right track. It also seemt to me that when one "signs on" with a preceptor then one knows that one is signing on for a package.

One of my Dhamma friends here left for Thailand with a moderately famous Ajahn late last year, with the intention of ordaining in a few months. I was present at some of the clarifying discussions he had before making the decision (he wanted a couple of friends to be present in case there were questions he didn't think of). The message was basically that he was expected to follow the preceptor's directions for five years. After that he was free (and encouraged) to seek out alternatives. If he found it impossible to last the five years he was also free to leave, as long as he didn't expect to be able to come back later...

That seemed to me to be a rather sensible and transparent arrangement. My impression is that this is typical.

In the west we have a culture based on democratic values, humanist values and CAPITALIST value all the way first!

Aristoteles in ancient times, already made a critic to the worst form of governament.

He believed that the political regiments existent in his time, could be compared with the wind regularity. There is a constance in their casting: always to the north or always to the south. However, there is irregularity of every type. In the same way it occurs with the political forms. We can imagine that some of them are permanents, as monarchism, aristocracy, politeia (constitucional governament), indeed existing the natural "corruptions", provoked by the erronious winds, that conduce us to other political organizations, worse then the ideals. In these worse forms of governament, Aristóteles pointed the tirany (the most wicked), the oligarchy and the DEMOCRACY (pointed by him as "the worst of the good forms, but the best in the bad variety", because the major accordance win, not the meritous one.

The human society, especially in the west, is too diverseficated, so is the behaviour of people. This tend to people be free as long they respect the law stablished in the present. In the western society lot of the ancient costumes are getting lost, such as respect to the old, respect to the wise, respect to relegion, this tend people go toward sientific materialism.

This kind of behaviour goes to the western monosteries also, maybe there is people going to a type of spiritual materialism or something like that in change of sientific materialism. Because of democracy, western don't like too much power to someone and they try to go to the texts as first guidance.

In the East you can ordain in any place, after full ordination one can live as wanderer/beggar/forester and go to any place. In my case, I'm waiting to accomplish higher wordly education in Bachaelor of Laws and finish doctorate, instruct my self very well on the principles and bases of the teaching such as Noble 8 path, brahma-viharas, 4 bases of concentration, paramis, et coetera and then go for ordination. This is to avoid any lack of instruction and guidance, we never know what gonna happen, so propper preparation is good. After full ordination and spending some time with the preceptor and teacher, I want to go to the forest, cave duelling, living as beggar. Don't want to spend much time in a monostary. Military service in Brazil teach how to live in this conditions, there is no problem living without furnishments and equipaments as long as get food from begging. (this paragrah is my personal view).

14 years ago when I decided I wanted to ordain there was a very good Ajahn Chah monastery 15 minutes drive down the road from me. I could have gone there but the idea of spending a year as an anagarika bleaching my whites didn't appeal. Seriously though it wouldn't have felt like "going forth", going out on a limb, too close to everything I was familiar with and all the temptations I was used to. I also felt I'd be spending a lot of time on chores and building programs when really what I wanted was intensive meditation.

So I went to Thailand, and I've been to Thailand, Myanmar, and Malaysia many times since. I did eventually ordain but only for 3 months as a cultural pre-requisite to being married.

If I were to ordain proper (ie long term) some time in future I'd still probably choose asia even though I think the western approach to monastic practice is closer to original Buddhism, not swallowed up by culture, superstition, and tradition, not full of insincere monks.

The reason would be as before, in addition now I'm just as comfortable in the asian environment as I am here.

"Proper effort is not the effort to make something particular happen. It is the effort to be aware and awake each moment." - Ajahn Chah"When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness. When we stop clinging, we can begin to be happy." - Ajahn Chah"Know and watch your heart. It’s pure but emotions come to colour it." — Ajahn Chah

SDC wrote:Firstly...why does it seem, I say "seem" because it is the impression I've gotten from many directions, why does it seem that for serious ordination one must go to Southeast Asia (Thailand, Burma, Sri Lanka, etc.)? Why not in their own country? What are the difficulties of ordination in these western countries? Limited number of Therevadan monasteries? Lack of space? Lack of monasteries that accept westerners? Or is there such a limited amount of westerners looking to ordain and therefore there are few options in these western countries? Is it just that the western monastic tradition is still in its infancy?

There's certainly no shortage of postulants (in the good monasteries), but the problem is that the West is the frontier. Every monastery in the west is an oasis - If the water turns fetid (and it does, periodically) then where do you go?

In the East one can go where one likes essentially, if the conditions turn to custard, then it's really no problem - You just pack your bags and go to one of the other 100 places nearby. Almost the whole population are faithful of monks and yogis and are very willing to help you with any problems you might have. The East affords one a freedom of choice that is not found in the small number of Western sanctuaries.

The Ajahn Chah lineage certainly has a lot of money, and that has ensured that it's Monks who are 5+ vassa can essentially go where they like, but the wealth of the lineage is dependent upon conditions and I wouldn't be surprised if all of these lay-committees and associations that support them, will in time (due to worsening economic conditions and the scarcity of oil) be caught with their pants down. But what about the East? Well in many regions it's basically agrarian - The west could collapse altogether and in some places people wouldn't really bat an eye lid. So in my eyes at least it offers the prospect of long term sustainability in terms of the four requisites.

mettaJack

Good info, Jack.

mikenz66 wrote:Hi SDC,

Thank you for the interesting questions. Just a quick comment:

SDC wrote:Secondly...and this question has spawned from the paper in the other thread - what are the opinions of monasteries in western countries, with mostly western monks, that have abbots of western origin that maintain cultural traditions from the Southeast Asian countries in which they were trained? Do the junior monastics upset by these cultural influences have a good reason to be critical? Should they try to change the way the abbots run the monasteries to make them less culturally influenced? Or should they move along to a situation that better suits what they are looking for considering they knew they were entering a monastery in which is rooted in the Thai forest tradition?

It seems to me that it is tricky to figure out what aspects are "cultural" and what aspects are a sensible way of making sure that the newly-ordained bhikkhus get on the right track. It also seemt to me that when one "signs on" with a preceptor then one knows that one is signing on for a package.

One of my Dhamma friends here left for Thailand with a moderately famous Ajahn late last year, with the intention of ordaining in a few months. I was present at some of the clarifying discussions he had before making the decision (he wanted a couple of friends to be present in case there were questions he didn't think of). The message was basically that he was expected to follow the preceptor's directions for five years. After that he was free (and encouraged) to seek out alternatives. If he found it impossible to last the five years he was also free to leave, as long as he didn't expect to be able to come back later...

That seemed to me to be a rather sensible and transparent arrangement. My impression is that this is typical.

Mike

I felt the same way when reading the paper that was posted in the other thread. Essentially, they understood what the deal was at those monasteries.

Goedert wrote:In the western society lot of the ancient costumes are getting lost, such as respect to the old, respect to the wise, respect to relegion, this tend people go toward sientific materialism.

To be honest with you, Goedert, the thing that distinguishes the United States, where I live, and perhaps a few other western nations, is that there really aren't "ancient customs". We absolutely have some short term "traditions", but we by no means, collectively, maintain anything that could be considered ancient. I mean this statement in general, as far as there being any "ancient American customs". There is not even an idea of that in the United States. I think this is due to the fact that the US is still a relatively young culture that grew out of war, chaos, industry, innovation and imagination with the goal of abandoning old ways.

So I'm not saying I disagree with your above statement, but for the US at least, the general American mentality has always tended towards science and reason above religion and ancient wisdom. Just look at what has happened between 1776 and now as far as technology and economics. So I don't see that anything is getting lost, it was never really here...at least in the US. But, IMVHO, that time will come when we will be able to see some aspects of our culture as strong, long standing customs.

What I will say, and perhaps this is what you meant, is that upon emigrating to the US, and perhaps other western nations, many foreign cultures gradually disappear through the generations. My great grandparents on both sides were Italian and Sicilian immigrants, and as far as specific Italian customs, they are all but gone throughout my family.

Since the US seems to be a cultural wrecking ball, I think that environment could be a good thing for the the practice of Buddhism in western monasteries. I think it puts less around the practice and teachings so access is much easier and less confusing as far as having to distinguish what's a cultural aspect and what is the dhamma.

Goedert wrote:In the East you can ordain in any place, after full ordination one can live as wanderer/beggar/forester and go to any place. In my case, I'm waiting to accomplish higher wordly education in Bachaelor of Laws and finish doctorate, instruct my self very well on the principles and bases of the teaching such as Noble 8 path, brahma-viharas, 4 bases of concentration, paramis, et coetera and then go for ordination. This is to avoid any lack of instruction and guidance, we never know what gonna happen, so propper preparation is good. After full ordination and spending some time with the preceptor and teacher, I want to go to the forest, cave duelling, living as beggar. Don't want to spend much time in a monostary. Military service in Brazil teach how to live in this conditions, there is no problem living without furnishments and equipaments as long as get food from begging. (this paragrah is my personal view).

Sounds like a good plan.

Goofaholix wrote:14 years ago when I decided I wanted to ordain there was a very good Ajahn Chah monastery 15 minutes drive down the road from me. I could have gone there but the idea of spending a year as an anagarika bleaching my whites didn't appeal. Seriously though it wouldn't have felt like "going forth", going out on a limb, too close to everything I was familiar with and all the temptations I was used to. I also felt I'd be spending a lot of time on chores and building programs when really what I wanted was intensive meditation.

So I went to Thailand, and I've been to Thailand, Myanmar, and Malaysia many times since. I did eventually ordain but only for 3 months as a cultural pre-requisite to being married.

If I were to ordain proper (ie long term) some time in future I'd still probably choose asia even though I think the western approach to monastic practice is closer to original Buddhism, not swallowed up by culture, superstition, and tradition, not full of insincere monks.

The reason would be as before, in addition now I'm just as comfortable in the asian environment as I am here.

Right on, Goof. I would not want to ordain so close to my home either. But I would ordain out west here in the US. It is far enough away from NYC for there to be a separation.

Having read through the article I notice the author, being a Thai, does seem to to informed by the assumption that most Thais have that Thai culture is in harmony with Buddhism.

I notice whenever I tell Thais I am interested in Buddhism they automatically assume I'm interested in Thai culture, when in reality I don't see much overlap between the two and in some aspects they are totally opposite.

Having said that the main point of the article is about the hierarchical nature of Thai culture, this I don't really have an issue with. If you look at Mahayana Buddhism there is a much stronger emphasis of submission to a teacher, Myanmar is much the same as Thailand in this respect, maybe Sri Lanka is an exception I'm not sure. Maybe this all comes from the Hindu notion of a guru rather than the pali canon notion of a kalyanamitta but still it works.

So personally I don't see an issue with the hierarchical nature of Thai monasticism, but I can imagine those planning to have it as a life vocation might, it makes life simpler so that one can more easily settle ones mind to the task.

"Proper effort is not the effort to make something particular happen. It is the effort to be aware and awake each moment." - Ajahn Chah"When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness. When we stop clinging, we can begin to be happy." - Ajahn Chah"Know and watch your heart. It’s pure but emotions come to colour it." — Ajahn Chah

These were some very well-informed posts and discussions which I enjoyed reading.

What about the idea of ordaining and training at a Western monastery (bearing in mind Goofaholix's statement that Western monasticism is closer to the original teachings) so that one is able to focus the mind, speech and body on this until they reach 5+ vassa, THEN moving to Thailand or somewhere?

That way, one's monastic training involves focus on the 'pure' teachings without having to separate out those from the other aspects of the practice that are local to a particular country, as well as not having to grapple with getting used to the lifestyle, traditions and customs of a foreign land?

Some additional questions expanding on some of the things I asked originally...

Would a monastic community be able to wander for alms in America? Do you think there is any aspect of the American public ready to embrace this? Does this currently go on anywhere in the US? I recall hearing something about it. Would the typical middle-class, American family be willing to support them?

SDC wrote:Figured I would bump this up and see if anyone had anything to add.

Some additional questions expanding on some of the things I asked originally...

Would a monastic community be able to wander for alms in America? Do you think there is any aspect of the American public ready to embrace this? Does this currently go on anywhere in the US? I recall hearing something about it. Would the typical middle-class, American family be willing to support them?

There was a thread recently that showed Ajahn Thanissaro does go on alms round every day.

I assume however this is possible because supporters are already used to this and expect it at a ceratain location and time, I'm sure if they just turned up on Sunset Blvrd or Wall st they wouldn't get fed.

i have heard stories of Ajahn Chah monks on tudong in in the UK standing outside a supermarket or similar and receiving offerings, or abuse, or both. I think doing this in the west without prearranging supporters is really going out on a limb though.

"Proper effort is not the effort to make something particular happen. It is the effort to be aware and awake each moment." - Ajahn Chah"When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness. When we stop clinging, we can begin to be happy." - Ajahn Chah"Know and watch your heart. It’s pure but emotions come to colour it." — Ajahn Chah

SDC wrote:Figured I would bump this up and see if anyone had anything to add.

Some additional questions expanding on some of the things I asked originally...

Would a monastic community be able to wander for alms in America? Do you think there is any aspect of the American public ready to embrace this?

You must be from the city.

Where I live, being a lay-Buddhist and being open about your religion-- absolutely not a problem at all, people are very accepting. However, walking around begging for alms with strange, unseen before religious robes on and a shaved head? You would get your first gun drawn on you within a few days, no b.s. and would be very lucky to not get shot.

In my county, I could easily see a rifle being drawn on me on my first alms round, no problem.

Kevin

Whatever an enemy might do to an enemy, or a foe to a foe, the ill-directed mind can do to you even worse.

SDC wrote:Figured I would bump this up and see if anyone had anything to add.

Some additional questions expanding on some of the things I asked originally...

Would a monastic community be able to wander for alms in America? Do you think there is any aspect of the American public ready to embrace this?

You must be from the city.

Where I live, being a lay-Buddhist and being open about your religion-- absolutely not a problem at all, people are very accepting. However, walking around begging for alms with strange, unseen before religious robes on and a shaved head? You would get your first gun drawn on you within a few days, no b.s. and would be very lucky to not get shot.

In my county, I could easily see a rifle being drawn on me on my first alms round, no problem.

Kevin

That is a sad thing. Fortunately the monks in England were treated a bit better.

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.People live in one another’s shelter.

Another interesting question in this discussion would be: How can Buddhist Monasticism develop in western countries?

There is a lot of interest for Buddhism in the west and there are some monasteries shattered around, but they are still few compared to how manypeople in the west who are interested in Buddhisme.

Is it possible to transplant a South East Asian model to the west or would it be better to build a new Monastic tradition more aligned to westerntraditions, of course without doing anything that goes against the Teaching.

And from a western perspective, you can also ask the question: Do we need Monasticism to practice Buddhisme?

It would be interesting to hear your views about the above mentioned.

I personally don't know so much about it, because I live in Thailand, and we have enough monasteries here, but I still think it is an interestingquestion, due to the spread of Buddhism. Jeppe

If you let go a little, you will have a little peace. If youlet go a lot, you will have a lot of peace. If you let go completely,you will know complete peace and freedom.Ajahn Chah

thaijeppe wrote:There is a lot of interest for Buddhism in the west and there are some monasteries shattered around, but they are still few compared to how manypeople in the west who are interested in Buddhisme...

Here in the U.S. there are a few major issues. First of all, the government does not sponsor monasteries, they are only tax exempt, which makes them much harder to build and maintain than in other places. Adding to this, is the fact that our economy is in the hole. Thirdly, monks either have no health coverage or must somehow pay for it without an income. This is very problematic. Also, many Western monasteries will insist that the monks have some form of healthcare, to prevent being put in a tight spot when one of their bhikkhus comes down with a serious illness. Ironically, monasteries cost a lot of money, because of the society we live in. It's not like old India, ie. rich lay supporter (or a King) puts up the money for a monastery, they pay no taxes because the King supports religious sects, doctors/physicians who are faithful visit them and treat them, there is a large supply of food because of so many devout lay practitioners, etc. (and in general people can wander freely without breaking the laws of the land by doing so).

Here it is a situation where not many rich lay supporters can afford the huge costs of building and maintaining monasteries now, the government sees us as numbers not as important people, modern medicine and treatment can be expensive, there are fewer lay supporters to offer food and other requisites, and (in some places) you might get shot.

Kevin

Whatever an enemy might do to an enemy, or a foe to a foe, the ill-directed mind can do to you even worse.

The only time I entertain the possibility that this is a degenerate age is when it turns out to cost money to go forth into homelessness.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

Right Speech: It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will. [AN 5.198]

Personally, I seem to gain the most insight when I am under the most pressure, when life is at its most unpleasant. There is something in me on those occasions which feels that there is nothing left but to be aware of 'this'. Ajahn Sumedho - Don't Take Your Life Personally, p288