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[GUST] Games. Going all in with All-Star Atelier, Nelke out late March 2019, Lulua in May.

Posts

Did I not make it clear how much I liked the PS2 Ateliers, especially Khemia, which has one of the best RPG turn based battle systems of anything and gorgeous spritework, and how bitter I am that they threw all of that out to create something filled with godawful design decisions, stripped down to practically nothing, and replacing "fantasy adventure" with "girls putter around the kitchen making pies"? Especially for Rorona Basic which is an abomination in every sense. Because I am. Extremely.

The endless flood of unskippable vapid cutscenes interrupting attempts to actually play the games in the most frustrating of all possible ways is only the greatest of all their terrible design sins. And even that could've been salvaged if they weren't "I like being friends and pies. Me too! I too also enjoy having friends and pies. Let's all be friends and have pies"x37. Maybe if pies was a euphemism, but alas. Dusk tried to fix things by upping the scale and iteratively getting closer and closer to Khemia's system, but was still dragging far too much of the baggage Arland dumped on the franchise. And its hippy environmentalist message was... not well delivered either, to put it lightly.

If it makes you feel better, they did fix this in later Dusk games by having the areas where scenes would happen be specifically marked on the map or fast travel list. That way you could avoid them if you really wanted to, I guess.

But I agree with Lovely, I rather enjoyed the back and forth you get with the people you hang with. I get the whole system is a little old fashioned, but having MORE scenes with characters is usually a sign that you're playing with them in your party more often, so you like them anyway. Yeah, there's the occasional montage they throw in with a catchy tune, but it's usually a rare few time in the game's timeline.

I mean, this is a game series where people aren't getting together to fight evil or unite a kingdom, there's no common cause here. The NPCs just want to help the alchemist because she's NICE, and that's going to involve a LOT more exposition and character development than your standard fare RPG. Otherwise it would be about the protagonist and no one else, and all the NPCs would be cardboard cutouts of traditional RPG classes.

If the exposition was going anywhere or the characters developed at all, I'd be a lot more forgiving. More text isn't the same as more content. Especially when the characters by and large act like Martians with zero understanding of human interaction and that's passed off as sentimentality.

Again though, I generally like Rorona Plus despite its sins, and the Dusk series was at least trying to fix its mistakes and move in a positive direction (although Sophie seems to have thrown much of that out), but Arland as a whole gets my dander up especially in a ruff because of just how much they threw out from the PS2 games and all they replaced it with was hours upon hours of drivel, a terrible battle system, and a ridiculously overcomplicated alchemy system that went from pointless for 90% of the main game to impossible to fully utilize without a step by step guide in the post game.

We'll just have to agree to disagree I suppose. I found the interactions a lot more enjoyable than Sorcery Saga for instance. Sorcery Saga being a game I had to quit fairly early on because the characters were so unlikable, vapid, and their moe-blob-esque conversations kept on giving me the urge to stick sharpened pencils in my eyes and to throw myself into an abyss created by the old ones from whence there is no return.

We'll just have to agree to disagree I suppose. I found the interactions a lot more enjoyable than Sorcery Saga for instance. Sorcery Saga being a game I had to quit fairly early on because the characters were so unlikable, vapid, and their moe-blob-esque conversations kept on giving me the urge to stick sharpened pencils in my eyes and to throw myself into an abyss created by the old ones from whence there is no return.

The character design of that one chef dude in Sorcery Saga was really off-putting to me. He looked like he smelled something really bad and was recoiling backwards, but was trying to pretend he didn't, or something.

There's a lot of things wrong with JRPGs. Gust games have some of those, there's some better than this game and a lot that're patently worse. I consider it on the low end of the spectrum for the amount of JRPG bullshit you have to put up with. I'm not gonna discuss specifics, because it's moot. This is a problem with Japan's general culture, not just gaming culture. It has a ways to go, I doubt video games will be paving the way to feminism there anytime soon.

I'll say this about Ar Tonelico, which is by far the bigger culprit of this behavior. What they make regarding the progression of reyvateils and civilization itself is logical and interesting to watch through the main three games. Very general setting spoilers here.

The first game has reyvateils very rare on the island, and all of them are either registered and codified or enslaved depending on the side of the war you were on. The second game the reyvateils are everywhere, and exploited to no end because of this, including the heavily hinted use of virtual prostitution. By the third game and island, reyvateils came together and took over the island, ruling from the upper levels with an iron fist, and are looking to either completely subjugate or destroy the rest of humanity.

I'm OK with sexualizing women, because women can be sexy and to me that's a good thing. It's objectivication that I have problems with and I don't feel like the atelier games do that. The promo art in particular bothers me because I feel like they are being objectified there, and the age thing bothers me because I do feel like some of the girls are too young for that portrayal to be healthy, I don't have any proof of that though. I feel that way mostly because I was taught to. That's why I think it's more of a cultural difference.

Edit: I don't want this to come off as me telling you how you should feel. How you feel is 100% justified. I just wanted to go more on depth about my own opinions on the subject.

I'm OK with sexualizing women, because women can be sexy and to me that's a good thing. It's objectivication that I have problems with and I don't feel like the atelier games do that. The promo art in particular bothers me because I feel like they are being objectified there, and the age thing bothers me because I do feel like some of the girls are too young for that portrayal to be healthy, I don't have any proof of that though. I feel that way mostly because I was taught to. That's why I think it's more of a cultural difference.

Edit: I don't want this to come off as me telling you how you should feel. How you feel is 100% justified. I just wanted to go more on depth about my own opinions on the subject.

I always thought Ayesha was the least objectified out of the modern Atelier games. And it's not because she's not as girly, in fact she's probably the girliest. It's because most others got into alchemy as a way out, while Ayesha was perfectly happy and content where she was. She was using alchemy to fulfill a goal, not to change or help her life. It's not weak to go 'I'm an apothecary and know my limits, so I'm getting as much help as I can while I learn how to save my sister'.

Now afterwards she decides she can't reasonably stop and keeps going, but that's less about who she is and more about what she learns (trying not to spoil).

I'll say this about Ar Tonelico, which is by far the bigger culprit of this behavior. What they make regarding the progression of reyvateils and civilization itself is logical and interesting to watch through the main three games. Very general setting spoilers here.

The first game has reyvateils very rare on the island, and all of them are either registered and codified or enslaved depending on the side of the war you were on. The second game the reyvateils are everywhere, and exploited to no end because of this, including the heavily hinted use of virtual prostitution. By the third game and island, reyvateils came together and took over the island, ruling from the upper levels with an iron fist, and are looking to either completely subjugate or destroy the rest of humanity.

Though you're mistaken or missing some points in several things there:

In Sol Ciel (AT1), Reyvateils are merely mistreated out of cultural prejudice and the fact that a faction in Tenba pushes actively to treat them as mere machines and dolls instead of living beings, with the only place where they're prized being Platina due to Shurelia being the ruler for it and the fact that she herself is a Reyvateil. This can also be seen from the fact that while Platina Reyvateils don't have to worry about getting the Diquility (the life extending agent), the ones in the rest of the region have to be working for Tenba or the Church because Diquility is prohibitively expensive and both organizations only give the agent to the Reyvateils as payment (though they do give them lodging and food), not even allowing them working wages until Ayano changed everything in the post-AT1 light novel.

In Metafalss (AT2), the Reyvateils are instead treated with great respect and appreciation due to the fact that their legends of Metafalica state that a Reyvateil will be the one who will create their long-sought paradise, that also being why the Maiden, the highest political position in that region, can only be held by a Reyvateil. This is also why the Grand Bell provides free trimestral Diquility doses to all Reyvateils living in the region. The only exception to this are IPDs due to them being so dangerous to the public when they go berserk and the fact that the goddess' treaty itself has culling the IPDs as one of its conditions as preparation for Hibernation's execution. As for the "virtual prostitution" bit, most people missed out that using the shallowest layer of the Soulspace to create a virtual world also involves creating a wall of sorts that separates that area from the rest of the Cosmosphere, thus not allowing the patient any contact with the therapists' real minds, as allowing that sort of contact would be a severe privacy breach for the therapist and would put the patient in great danger. Similarly, the reason why the profession is so infamous is because Alfman spread those lies as propaganda so no one would be able to find out that Dive Therapy can be used to cure the IPDs, so he and the Grand Bell could continue capturing them for his stupid war against the Goddess. In fact, NPC dialogue in the game state that anyone who considers Dive Therapy like that and requests a session solely for that even if the therapist herself is against the idea is a one-way ticket to getting banned from all Dive Shops in Metafalss, and Cloche, the most radical supporter of the Dive Therapy banning, reverses her position when shown in Luca's Infelsphere how Dive Therapy works exactly. That said, it's not like I can state that all therapists are wholesome, as Nana herself does allow indecent things to happen in her therapy sessions, but similarly, it would be mistaken to call them prostitutes when the service can be actually more likened to a massage parlor or a counseling session.

I'll also take the time to state that according to Tsuchiya, pretty much all of the innuendo and sexy bits that appear on the game are a way of expressing how the heroines and protagonist come closer to each other, as it's impossible to actually depict closeness and intimacy in a more realistic way without those things being shown. This especially goes for the events shown in the Genometrics and Cosmospheres, as all humans are bound to have that sort of thoughts and fantasies in their minds at some point.

I'll say this about Ar Tonelico, which is by far the bigger culprit of this behavior. What they make regarding the progression of reyvateils and civilization itself is logical and interesting to watch through the main three games. Very general setting spoilers here.

The first game has reyvateils very rare on the island, and all of them are either registered and codified or enslaved depending on the side of the war you were on. The second game the reyvateils are everywhere, and exploited to no end because of this, including the heavily hinted use of virtual prostitution. By the third game and island, reyvateils came together and took over the island, ruling from the upper levels with an iron fist, and are looking to either completely subjugate or destroy the rest of humanity.

Though you're mistaken or missing some points in several things there:

In Sol Ciel (AT1), Reyvateils are merely mistreated out of cultural prejudice and the fact that a faction in Tenba pushes actively to treat them as mere machines and dolls instead of living beings, with the only place where they're prized being Platina due to Shurelia being the ruler for it and the fact that she herself is a Reyvateil. This can also be seen from the fact that while Platina Reyvateils don't have to worry about getting the Diquility (the life extending agent), the ones in the rest of the region have to be working for Tenba or the Church because Diquility is prohibitively expensive and both organizations only give the agent to the Reyvateils as payment (though they do give them lodging and food), not even allowing them working wages until Ayano changed everything in the post-AT1 light novel.

In Metafalss (AT2), the Reyvateils are instead treated with great respect and appreciation due to the fact that their legends of Metafalica state that a Reyvateil will be the one who will create their long-sought paradise, that also being why the Maiden, the highest political position in that region, can only be held by a Reyvateil. This is also why the Grand Bell provides free trimestral Diquility doses to all Reyvateils living in the region. The only exception to this are IPDs due to them being so dangerous to the public when they go berserk and the fact that the goddess' treaty itself has culling the IPDs as one of its conditions as preparation for Hibernation's execution. As for the "virtual prostitution" bit, most people missed out that using the shallowest layer of the Soulspace to create a virtual world also involves creating a wall of sorts that separates that area from the rest of the Cosmosphere, thus not allowing the patient any contact with the therapists' real minds, as allowing that sort of contact would be a severe privacy breach for the therapist and would put the patient in great danger. Similarly, the reason why the profession is so infamous is because Alfman spread those lies as propaganda so no one would be able to find out that Dive Therapy can be used to cure the IPDs, so he and the Grand Bell could continue capturing them for his stupid war against the Goddess. In fact, NPC dialogue in the game state that anyone who considers Dive Therapy like that and requests a session solely for that even if the therapist herself is against the idea is a one-way ticket to getting banned from all Dive Shops in Metafalss, and Cloche, the most radical supporter of the Dive Therapy banning, reverses her position when shown in Luca's Infelsphere how Dive Therapy works exactly. That said, it's not like I can state that all therapists are wholesome, as Nana herself does allow indecent things to happen in her therapy sessions, but similarly, it would be mistaken to call them prostitutes when the service can be actually more likened to a massage parlor or a counseling session.

I'll also take the time to state that according to Tsuchiya, pretty much all of the innuendo and sexy bits that appear on the game are a way of expressing how the heroines and protagonist come closer to each other, as it's impossible to actually depict closeness and intimacy in a more realistic way without those things being shown. This especially goes for the events shown in the Genometrics and Cosmospheres, as all humans are bound to have that sort of thoughts and fantasies in their minds at some point.

I will bow to the person with significantly more time and effort on the subject as myself. I haven't the time to delve into the novels or manga or interviews and just made my opinion on what the games show. Reyvateils are still rare in AT1, and the two places they can go still compartmentalize them in some fashion. Aurica's taken in despite her supposedly very weak song power. Even though the Reyvateils are revered in AT2, most you meet are terribly unhappy or IPDs. Luca and Cloche both have a love/hate relationship with their job/position and secretly despised their lives. And just because something is illegal doesn't mean it never happens, it's just never fleshed out because it concentrates on Luca and Cloche's polarizing views on it instead.

And as much as I like Tsuchiya's games, sometimes fanservice is just fanservice. I'll give him the cosmosphere choices, but cosplaying and stripping for different/better magic in combat is and always will be cheese, and that's coming from a fan.

I'm OK with sexualizing women, because women can be sexy and to me that's a good thing. It's objectivication that I have problems with and I don't feel like the atelier games do that. The promo art in particular bothers me because I feel like they are being objectified there, and the age thing bothers me because I do feel like some of the girls are too young for that portrayal to be healthy, I don't have any proof of that though. I feel that way mostly because I was taught to. That's why I think it's more of a cultural difference.

Edit: I don't want this to come off as me telling you how you should feel. How you feel is 100% justified. I just wanted to go more on depth about my own opinions on the subject.

I always thought Ayesha was the least objectified out of the modern Atelier games. And it's not because she's not as girly, in fact she's probably the girliest. It's because most others got into alchemy as a way out, while Ayesha was perfectly happy and content where she was. She was using alchemy to fulfill a goal, not to change or help her life. It's not weak to go 'I'm an apothecary and know my limits, so I'm getting as much help as I can while I learn how to save my sister'.

Now afterwards she decides she can't reasonably stop and keeps going, but that's less about who she is and more about what she learns (trying not to spoil).

Doesn't keep a certain other character from saying "You're an idiot who doesn't understand anything and you're not worth explaining shit to. Go home and bake pies." To which, her response is "Okay. That sounds about right. I like pies."

I'm OK with sexualizing women, because women can be sexy and to me that's a good thing. It's objectivication that I have problems with and I don't feel like the atelier games do that. The promo art in particular bothers me because I feel like they are being objectified there, and the age thing bothers me because I do feel like some of the girls are too young for that portrayal to be healthy, I don't have any proof of that though. I feel that way mostly because I was taught to. That's why I think it's more of a cultural difference.

Edit: I don't want this to come off as me telling you how you should feel. How you feel is 100% justified. I just wanted to go more on depth about my own opinions on the subject.

I always thought Ayesha was the least objectified out of the modern Atelier games. And it's not because she's not as girly, in fact she's probably the girliest. It's because most others got into alchemy as a way out, while Ayesha was perfectly happy and content where she was. She was using alchemy to fulfill a goal, not to change or help her life. It's not weak to go 'I'm an apothecary and know my limits, so I'm getting as much help as I can while I learn how to save my sister'.

Now afterwards she decides she can't reasonably stop and keeps going, but that's less about who she is and more about what she learns (trying not to spoil).

Doesn't keep a certain other character from saying "You're an idiot who doesn't understand anything and you're not worth explaining shit to. Go home and bake pies." To which, her response is "Okay. That sounds about right. I like pies."

Well... yeah, but he's not picking on her specifically. He's an asshole to EVERYONE. She wants help, he points her in the right direction and basically says 'go all in, or not at all, because I won't help more otherwise'. And yeah, she considers going back to her apothecary life... but she doesn't. She proves him wrong, at least in the best ending.

I mean shit, even in the bad ending he just walks back to her house 3 year later with her sister, goes 'here you go, I don't think alchemy is for you', and walks away again. That's not some heartless ass, that's just someone on a timetable.

Hiding that just in case, even though it really just spoils a failure state.

I'll say this about Ar Tonelico, which is by far the bigger culprit of this behavior. What they make regarding the progression of reyvateils and civilization itself is logical and interesting to watch through the main three games. Very general setting spoilers here.

The first game has reyvateils very rare on the island, and all of them are either registered and codified or enslaved depending on the side of the war you were on. The second game the reyvateils are everywhere, and exploited to no end because of this, including the heavily hinted use of virtual prostitution. By the third game and island, reyvateils came together and took over the island, ruling from the upper levels with an iron fist, and are looking to either completely subjugate or destroy the rest of humanity.

Though you're mistaken or missing some points in several things there:

In Sol Ciel (AT1), Reyvateils are merely mistreated out of cultural prejudice and the fact that a faction in Tenba pushes actively to treat them as mere machines and dolls instead of living beings, with the only place where they're prized being Platina due to Shurelia being the ruler for it and the fact that she herself is a Reyvateil. This can also be seen from the fact that while Platina Reyvateils don't have to worry about getting the Diquility (the life extending agent), the ones in the rest of the region have to be working for Tenba or the Church because Diquility is prohibitively expensive and both organizations only give the agent to the Reyvateils as payment (though they do give them lodging and food), not even allowing them working wages until Ayano changed everything in the post-AT1 light novel.

In Metafalss (AT2), the Reyvateils are instead treated with great respect and appreciation due to the fact that their legends of Metafalica state that a Reyvateil will be the one who will create their long-sought paradise, that also being why the Maiden, the highest political position in that region, can only be held by a Reyvateil. This is also why the Grand Bell provides free trimestral Diquility doses to all Reyvateils living in the region. The only exception to this are IPDs due to them being so dangerous to the public when they go berserk and the fact that the goddess' treaty itself has culling the IPDs as one of its conditions as preparation for Hibernation's execution. As for the "virtual prostitution" bit, most people missed out that using the shallowest layer of the Soulspace to create a virtual world also involves creating a wall of sorts that separates that area from the rest of the Cosmosphere, thus not allowing the patient any contact with the therapists' real minds, as allowing that sort of contact would be a severe privacy breach for the therapist and would put the patient in great danger. Similarly, the reason why the profession is so infamous is because Alfman spread those lies as propaganda so no one would be able to find out that Dive Therapy can be used to cure the IPDs, so he and the Grand Bell could continue capturing them for his stupid war against the Goddess. In fact, NPC dialogue in the game state that anyone who considers Dive Therapy like that and requests a session solely for that even if the therapist herself is against the idea is a one-way ticket to getting banned from all Dive Shops in Metafalss, and Cloche, the most radical supporter of the Dive Therapy banning, reverses her position when shown in Luca's Infelsphere how Dive Therapy works exactly. That said, it's not like I can state that all therapists are wholesome, as Nana herself does allow indecent things to happen in her therapy sessions, but similarly, it would be mistaken to call them prostitutes when the service can be actually more likened to a massage parlor or a counseling session.

I'll also take the time to state that according to Tsuchiya, pretty much all of the innuendo and sexy bits that appear on the game are a way of expressing how the heroines and protagonist come closer to each other, as it's impossible to actually depict closeness and intimacy in a more realistic way without those things being shown. This especially goes for the events shown in the Genometrics and Cosmospheres, as all humans are bound to have that sort of thoughts and fantasies in their minds at some point.

I will bow to the person with significantly more time and effort on the subject as myself. I haven't the time to delve into the novels or manga or interviews and just made my opinion on what the games show. Reyvateils are still rare in AT1, and the two places they can go still compartmentalize them in some fashion. Aurica's taken in despite her supposedly very weak song power. Even though the Reyvateils are revered in AT2, most you meet are terribly unhappy or IPDs. Luca and Cloche both have a love/hate relationship with their job/position and secretly despised their lives. And just because something is illegal doesn't mean it never happens, it's just never fleshed out because it concentrates on Luca and Cloche's polarizing views on it instead.

And as much as I like Tsuchiya's games, sometimes fanservice is just fanservice. I'll give him the cosmosphere choices, but cosplaying and stripping for different/better magic in combat is and always will be cheese, and that's coming from a fan.

As for Aurica, she was taken in specifically because Falss wanted to use her as a vessel for Mir's resurrection. According to him, "no one would notice if a little useless orphan like her disappeared from the world". And it's worth mentioning that Dive Therapy was legal and even more widespread in the times prior to Alfman's coup d'etat because it was a healing technique with over 500 years of history in Metafalss. In fact, it was legalized again following the end of AT2 because the ulterior motives behind its banning had already disappeared with the war against the goddess going away and Metafalica's creation making further IPD outbreaks impossible.

And I'll add that since the cosplays are born from the Reyvateils' own minds, they also count as a reflection of their hidden desires and feelings as much as the Cosmospheres themselves do. Plus, it's not like the stripping leaves completely out the fact that the Reyvateils in AT3 are revealing themselves to Aoto both metaphorically and literally.

Gonna throw out some more info since it's getting close to Sophie's release date.

Combat trailer.

Looks like you have to choose between offense and defense in the combat system, and there's a lot more options for team-ups on either side. Which is nice, because guard support was one of the weak parts of the Dusk system. There's a chain gauge that builds and is used to set up big group attack or support help.

Also, the world map style is just about taken entirely from Atelier Meruru. Not calling it a bad thing, but... c'mon.

Apparently they've added more to changes that can happen in town or while gathering. Both the time of day and the weather can change what ingredients or creatures you find while wandering. Yes, we got dynamic weather in an Atelier game finally.

Finally, they've not officially announced the voice cast yet, but Sophie is all but guaranteed to be Christine Cabanos now. Also Oskar sounds a LOT like Spike Spencer, but that's just my opinion. The rest I can't really match to anyone specific yet.

Here are some words you will only hear very rarely from me. Are you ready?

That right there is some beautiful anime art.

In other news, I'm occasionally plunking away at Rorona and just passed the first challenge. I only got 3 stars at my evaluation, which seems odd? I had maximized the gold stars on the challenge before the time period was up, but evaluated at far less.

I'm also noticing that optional quests at the main desk of the palace go away before the quest expires. This makes me nervous! I previously accepted only quests I knew I could fulfill, then would go out and hunt down the ingredients for the ones I had not accepted so I could accept and turn them in at the same time, but now I have to return to town as frequently as possible or risk missing out on jobs. How mandatory are these for getting a good ending?

Here are some words you will only hear very rarely from me. Are you ready?

That right there is some beautiful anime art.

In other news, I'm occasionally plunking away at Rorona and just passed the first challenge. I only got 3 stars at my evaluation, which seems odd? I had maximized the gold stars on the challenge before the time period was up, but evaluated at far less.

I'm also noticing that optional quests at the main desk of the palace go away before the quest expires. This makes me nervous! I previously accepted only quests I knew I could fulfill, then would go out and hunt down the ingredients for the ones I had not accepted so I could accept and turn them in at the same time, but now I have to return to town as frequently as possible or risk missing out on jobs. How mandatory are these for getting a good ending?

The 3 star evaluation at the end is as high as the final evaluation goes. You're not missing anything there.

You don't need to worry about missing front-counter quests. The quests themselves are not important. What is important is the shop rating that you see in the upper right hand corner when you open the menu. You want that up to 100% before the end of the game. Completing the counter requests will raise that. Don't worry too much if it feels like it's going up really slowly. You can alchemise decorations later on that increase the approval you get from completing a request. (It's a good idea to try to make each item listed in the decor tab as soon as you're able, and put it up in the shop. You can place decorations by accessing the save point in the workshop.)

Also, the front counter requests are unlimited. If a quest is removed from the list for any reason (it expired or got completed or whatnot) there will be a new quest replacing it the very next day, so don't be worried about the quests disappearing.

There is some variation in character stats, but they're not significant enough for you to really have any problems with content outside of the end game "you must break the crafting mechanics to beat this" dungeon that's in every Atelier Plus game. But even then you're going to be gaming the crafting system so much that the characters' stats don't especially matter compared to the items you make. So feel free to take a character based on personal preference.

Totori is super broken though. But she's not until the extra chapter so you don't have to worry about her.

That being said I take Gio everywhere because you must travel the world with class.

Well if Nights of Azure has taught me anything it's always read item descriptions and not just stare at the stat boosts. The freaking glass knife made me think that the game was broken and almost made me quit before I looked up why I was dying in one hit.

And while I know talking about this isn't looked upon favorably around here, I thought it was noteworthy enough to post it: a major update patch for the AT2 relocalization has been announced to be coming this weekend, and the changelog for it is preeeetty extensive.http://www.at2.metalbat.com/?p=537

+3

vagrant_windsBrings a Magic Infused Gun to a Swordfight.Registered Userregular

And while I know talking about this isn't looked upon favorably around here, I thought it was noteworthy enough to post it: a major update patch for the AT2 relocalization has been announced to be coming this weekend, and the changelog for it is preeeetty extensive.http://www.at2.metalbat.com/?p=537