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Re: Grade the Offseason

This off-season has to be judged by what got us in this position, as we try to maintain or lower payroll, while ironically still having the disparate, highest one:

-After all these years of supposedly changing the philosophy and "improving" the minor league system, as of today there are no major league-ready position players ready to step in. Unless the next crop can prove differently, we've become a farm system of relievers.

-Poor trades and decisions, particularly trading away our own cost-controlled youngsters that were ready to step in and not being aggressive enough going after others, some that would have cost nothing but $ (i.e. Darvish, Chapman).

-Bad contracts. Some can be attributed to Hal, Hank Levine and Co (A Rod), others to Cashman, who has handed out his fair share of knuckleheaded contracts (no need to list them).

-Like I said, it doesn't make a difference what the FO did or didn't do this off-season or whom it wasn't worth signing. We have an overly aging team (my guess is the oldest in the majors), some key players in decline, injury concerns (and signed on even more), a farm system not producing anything for 2013 and piss-poor player development. Somebody (or bodies) should be held responsible for this, making this off-seasons' financial constraints and quality of available free agents moot.

Re: Grade the Offseason

Damn. You said position players. Because Hughes, Nova and Phelps would have loved a word with you. Guess Gardner/Cano will have to do that on their own.

edit: I guess my question would be this - what defines major league ready? With the exception of catcher(!) this season, you would need one hell of a prospect to replace ANY of the players the Yankees currently have on the 25-man. Also, it would be a waste to call up a position player from the minors to DH. So I'm at a loss with your point. I can't think of one farm system that has the depth you expect the Yankees to have. And by you, I mean any poster who disagrees with me.

Re: Grade the Offseason

Originally Posted by snapple

Damn. You said position players. Because Hughes, Nova and Phelps would have loved a word with you. Guess Gardner/Cano will have to do that on their own.

edit: I guess my question would be this - what defines major league ready? With the exception of catcher(!) this season, you would need one hell of a prospect to replace ANY of the players the Yankees currently have on the 25-man. Also, it would be a waste to call up a position player from the minors to DH. So I'm at a loss with your point.

Have you looked at other major league rosters? Because offering up Hughes, Nova and Phelps as examples of what your farm system has produced after all these years would be pretty laughable...or myopic. Hughes, a huge disappointment (other than his relief stint in 2009), has proven to be nothing more than league average or worse. Nova? Seriously? Have you seen last year's numbers? Maybe he'll improve and be more the pitcher he surprised us with in 2011....or maybe he won't. Somewhere in the middle won't warrent his being mentioned as a Yankee farmhand success. Again....look at other teams' rosters.

Cano - in all fairness, I believe he was selected before Cashman became "autonomous," but I'll give you that one. Gardner? Love him, his ability to get on base, ability to wear down pitchers and his elite defense, but he's hardly a player of such superstar status or a name that would roll of fans of other teams' tongues. He's closer to being the kind of good to excellent position player most teams have produced.

I'll name Cano as the only elite-type player we've produced over the years, with DRob and Gardner (two very impressive players) on the next tier. That's three (two position players, one reliever). Now look at what other teams have produced in the same time. And I ain't buying where our team finishes each year (not that you've said it). Just look at the Braves and Sox as two examples.

By the way, and not to be snarky, but if you can't name one team with better depth in their farm system, or struggle finding teams that produce better players, you really need to take a better look at other rosters and stop focusing on just your team, thinking we can do no wrong.

Re: Grade the Offseason

But that's an unreasonable expectation (IMO). Not every team can produce superstars at every position. Having 2 major league ready starters (I think Nova can't possibly pitch worse than he did last season. Whenever he got hit, he got hit STUPID hard) in the last 2-3 years is a big deal. Nova's got legit pitches and, while I noticed you were careful with an assessment of Phelps (as I will be, too), Phelps has all but earned his slot in the rotation. Robertson has been one of the best relievers in the game over the last two seasons, so that's nothing to sneeze at. Also, Hughes can still put up league average numbers, which is fine.

Again, I think it's unreasonable to rank the farm system on "superstar" players. Look at Detroit and tell me how many of their superstars are "homegrown". Verlander and MAYBE Avila. are all I can think of. Fister was from the Mariners. Scherzer was from the D-Backs. Cabby, Infante and Sanchez were from the Marlins. Fielder was a FA signing. Jackson was from the Yankees. Those are essentially the Tiger's impact players. So yeah, an ace pitcher and a catcher who catches waaayyy to many games (Leyland's fault) are good, but that's 2 guys out of their "impact players". Sht, Victor Martinez was a FA, too.

I think it's hard to just say "LOOK AT ALL OF THESE TEAMS AND THEIR HOMEGROWN TALENT" without actually looking at their 25 man roster and actually seeing who was from their farm system.

Re: Grade the Offseason

Originally Posted by snapple

Damn. You said position players. Because Hughes, Nova and Phelps would have loved a word with you. Guess Gardner/Cano will have to do that on their own.

edit: I guess my question would be this - what defines major league ready? With the exception of catcher(!) this season, you would need one hell of a prospect to replace ANY of the players the Yankees currently have on the 25-man. Also, it would be a waste to call up a position player from the minors to DH. So I'm at a loss with your point. I can't think of one farm system that has the depth you expect the Yankees to have. And by you, I mean any poster who disagrees with me.

And to expand, I'm not talking about the immediate and what current minor league position players would fill holes (as an aside, the answer is probably none). I'm talking about finding ourselves in this position because of years of not producing good, major league talent or making some bad decisions in trading them away (or not going after others). Combine this with empirically poor player development and the Yankees have underperformed. I'm surprised when others see it differently.

Re: Grade the Offseason

Originally Posted by ArodEra

And to expand, I'm not talking about the immediate and what current minor league position players would fill holes (as an aside, the answer is probably none). I'm talking about finding ourselves in this position because of years of not producing good, major league talent or making some bad decisions in trading them away (or not going after others). Combine this with empirically poor player development and the Yankees have underperformed. I'm surprised when others see it differently.

I guess I just don't agree. I think Cashman has made pretty shrewd moves and some of them have backfired. People tend to only remember the trades for Montero and for Granderson. No one seems to remember the Boone Logan trade, or the Swisher trade (or at least are willing to bring it up), or even the Ichiro! trade last season. Yes, they were for minor pieces, but pieces that have worked really well for the Yankees. I'm still conviced Pineda is going to work out and be a cost controlled ace in the future (I know I'm in the minority). However, the next few seasons the Yankees are absolutely going to be tested on their farm system, if the 189m is to be heeded.

Re: Grade the Offseason

Originally Posted by snapple

I guess I just don't agree. I think Cashman has made pretty shrewd moves and some of them have backfired. People tend to only remember the trades for Montero and for Granderson. No one seems to remember the Boone Logan trade, or the Swisher trade (or at least are willing to bring it up), or even the Ichiro! trade last season. Yes, they were for minor pieces, but pieces that have worked really well for the Yankees. I'm still conviced Pineda is going to work out and be a cost controlled ace in the future (I know I'm in the minority). However, the next few seasons the Yankees are absolutely going to be tested on their farm system, if the 189m is to be heeded.

In all honesty, I tend to remember trading promising prospects like Vizcaino (can't predict injuries) for aging vets that bombed here the first time around.

Boone Logan trade? See above.

Not for anything, if you're going to sell me on Cashman's worth for all the years he's been GM, the aforementioned list of trades you mentioned (not saying they were bad) is a pretty weak one. Elite GM's would laugh at it. Even Omar Minaya might. Let's be honest here, without Steinbrenner money and the signing of the best and most obvious players available, 2009 doesn't happen.

That's not to say Cashman sucks. He doesn't (and no I didn't vote "F"). But he's had his fair share of bad and curious decisions and signings. Also, the farm system doesn't seem to be producing at a better rate under his watch.

And one more "Wot about teh Swisher trade!!!11111" and I'll jump off a bridge. Fine, it was a decent trade for a player who wore out his welcome in Chicago, was relegated to the bench, was sulking at the park and partying hardy outside of it. Still, kudos to Cashman for seeing something others gave up on. But, as much as we want to credit Cashman for Swisher's performance during the regular season, then shouldn't he also be responsible for trading for a player who failed miserably in the post season? It's a two way street. Just sayin'.

Re: Grade the Offseason

In all honesty, I tend to remember trading promising prospects like Vizcaino (can't predict injuries) for aging vets that bombed here the first time around.

Boone Logan trade?!? See above.

Not for anything, if you're going to sell me on Cashman's worth for all the years he's been GM, the aforementioned trades you mentioned (not saying they were bad) is a pretty weak list. Elite GM's might laugh at it. Let's be honest here, without Steinbrenner money and the signing of the best and most obvious players available, 2009 doesn't happen.

That's not to say Cashman sucks. He doesn't. But he's had his fair share of bad and curious decisions and signings. Also, the farm system doesn't seem to be producing at a better rate under his watch.

And one more "Wot about teh Swisher trade!!!11111" and I'll jump off a bridge. Fine, it was a decent trade for a player who wore out his welcome in Chicago, was relegated to the bench, was sulking at the park and partying hardy outside of it. Still, kudos to Cashman for seeing something others gave up on. But, as much as we want to credit Cashman for Swisher's performance during the regular season, shouldn't he also be responsible for trading for a player who failed miserably in the post season? It's a two way street. Just say'in.

Don't forget about that Swish trade.

Stamp them out! We must destroy them,
They infiltrate each city with their thick dark warning odor.
They are invincible.

Re: Grade the Offseason

In all honesty, I tend to remember trading promising prospects like Vizcaino (can't predict injuries) for aging vets that bombed here the first time around.

Boone Logan trade? See above.

Not for anything, if you're going to sell me on Cashman's worth for all the years he's been GM, the aforementioned list of trades you mentioned (not saying they were bad) is a pretty weak one. Elite GM's would laugh at it. Even Omar Minaya might. Let's be honest here, without Steinbrenner money and the signing of the best and most obvious players available, 2009 doesn't happen.

That's not to say Cashman sucks. He doesn't (and no I didn't vote "F"). But he's had his fair share of bad and curious decisions and signings. Also, the farm system doesn't seem to be producing at a better rate under his watch.

And one more "Wot about teh Swisher trade!!!11111" and I'll jump off a bridge. Fine, it was a decent trade for a player who wore out his welcome in Chicago, was relegated to the bench, was sulking at the park and partying hardy outside of it. Still, kudos to Cashman for seeing something others gave up on. But, as much as we want to credit Cashman for Swisher's performance during the regular season, then shouldn't he also be responsible for trading for a player who failed miserably in the post season? It's a two way street. Just sayin'.

I suppose I only named the trades that came to mind, and my glasses are slightly pin-stripe tinted when looking back on things. I understand yours, and others, frustration at the lack of superstars being produced from the farm system. But, the reason that I posted what I did about the Tigers is that it isn't common for teams to rely solely, or even mostly, on their farm system and be productive. I picked the Tigers because of the pre-season love they are getting for this coming season. And, to be fair, I'd rather pay a guy like CC top dollar as a FA and then have 2-3 guys who can fill up behind him that come from your system and can shore up innings and give you at least league average pitching. I think it's a lot cheaper to pay one guy 20m+/season than 2-4 guys getting paid the kind of money that's getting thrown around today at somewhat above league average pitching.

I hope that makes sense. I think a rotation of CC/Pineda/Nova/Phelps/some dumpster signing, will be very formidable next season. And to me, that's a very attractive rotation for the FO. I'm sure they'd love Banuelos in there, if it wasn't for his inevitable Yankees Tommy John Surgery™.

Re: Grade the Offseason

Originally Posted by snapple

I suppose I only named the trades that came to mind, and my glasses are slightly pin-stripe tinted when looking back on things. I understand yours, and others, frustration at the lack of superstars being produced from the farm system. But, the reason that I posted what I did about the Tigers is that it isn't common for teams to rely solely, or even mostly, on their farm system and be productive. I picked the Tigers because of the pre-season love they are getting for this coming season. And, to be fair, I'd rather pay a guy like CC top dollar as a FA and then have 2-3 guys who can fill up behind him that come from your system and can shore up innings and give you at least league average pitching. I think it's a lot cheaper to pay one guy 20m+/season than 2-4 guys getting paid the kind of money that's getting thrown around today at somewhat above league average pitching.

I hope that makes sense. I think a rotation of CC/Pineda/Nova/Phelps/some dumpster signing, will be very formidable next season. And to me, that's a very attractive rotation for the FO. I'm sure they'd love Banuelos in there, if it wasn't for his inevitable Yankees Tommy John Surgery™.

I think I understand where you (and some other members) are coming from and you make some valid points.

However, I'm not talking about the Yanks' inability to produce superstars (though I do mention the scarcity of them coming from the Yankee system in the last 25 years), but their poor history of evaluating talent and/or developing them. I hope this changes with the latest impressive new crop coming along, but it seems like one of those "been there, done that" propositions.

What troubles me most (and maybe I didn't stress this enough), is the promising players that we have developed within and traded away...or gave up on. If we had kept a couple of them, this new "fiscally responsible" (yeah, right!) attitude and financial constraints ($189 M) wouldn't seem as dire and would be more palatable, now and in the future. I wouldn't categorize AJax as a superstar (not yet at least), but those are the type of cost-controlled players I'm talking about. We either haven't or don't have the ability fill our roster with major league-ready position players (or starting pitchers), superstar or not, which, at face value, is a testament to our farm system. Hence, we're forced to sign players like Youkilis, Ichiro and a bunch of other 38-43 year old players or hasbeens.

Yeah, Cashman does find some sh!t that sticks to give this team a temporary boost, but is that what we expected from him and how we want him to continue to run this team? And let's be honest; is the reality of how he runs the team much different than how George and Tampa did things, that some complained about? Just because Cashman has a publicly-stated philosophy doesn't mean he carries through with it. Trust me, no complaints here if Cashman buys another championship or two, but those days seem to be over, as other teams aren't kowtowing to the Yanks anymore and have their own money to spend (arguably more efficiently too). So, decisions on prospects become all the more crucial.