This is a sensitive subject for some people, try to show some respect.

I, personally, am a theistic person, I am a christian. I arrived at these beliefs by my raising at first, and then began to question them, for a brief period, I could be best described as a questioning agnostic. Then after being tired of getting blasted about both theories I went off the radar and started my own research and arrived back at theistic/christian beliefs. I dedicated more than enough time to comfortably call myself one, even went as far as establishing a set of tests to gauge why I believe what I believe.

This is an important topic to me, because it not only decides most of your core beliefs, but also how you see the world (hence "worldview"). It's important enough to spend some time on and possibly even discuss with some rational thinking. Not only on a scientific level, but also historical.

I find it strange that you're lumping together the different kinds of agnosticism and atheism, and the different kinds of monotheisms and polytheisms, especially since you mention it's an important topic for you.

see, I typically describe myself as an atheist - but I'm only an atheist with respect to YHWH (although that Loki = YHWH theory is very appealing). but I am somewhat "polytheistic" with regards to your poll in the sense that I do believe that if there were gods, a pantheon like the norse seems the most likely. i don't believe in them, but the idea of personifying certain aspects of nature is indeed appealing. but for all intents and purposes, those deities could as easily just be sufficiently advanced aliens (or, more likely, very flattering stories about the exploits of some ancient chieftains).

BUT: if you say you're a "theist" as in a christian, you're also an atheist or agnostic regarding all other religions._________________"Confident, lazy, cocky, dead." -- Felix Jongleur, Otherland

Saying I don't believe in Allah, doesn't make me atheistic, I don't consider someone's core beliefs to be objective.

edit: or at least mine

Allah is a pagan pro-islamic deity. It's like taking Zeus from the pantheon and making him only god.

you really should read the Quran. it's got some very valuable lessons in there you might benefit from. + it tells you that Allah and your "God" are the same guy. it even teachers followers of Islam to respect christians because they're really believing in the same god - they just happen to have an outdated version of the scripture._________________"Confident, lazy, cocky, dead." -- Felix Jongleur, Otherland

I don't assume anyone cares what I think about religion and I don't generally care about what they believe. I certainly don't tolerate hard sell in any aspect of my life so that pretty much counts me out of any of the Jesus religions. I find the more religious people are the more invasive they think they are entitled to be to others beliefs. That's not something I find acceptable personally, so I tend to get annoyed at people who bash bibles in my vicinity.

Apart from that, your invisible friends will not get any derision from me on a personal level. I won't feel it's a lack of tact on my part, however, if I make a statement on the state of religion in the world in mixed company. Once you reach adulthood your beliefs shouldn't become that precious to you that you become angry and testosterone charged at someone's opposite view. If I were to bang on about it, however, I might expect to receive the same short shrift as I dish out.

Saying I don't believe in Allah, doesn't make me atheistic, I don't consider someone's core beliefs to be objective.

edit: or at least mine

Allah is a pagan pro-islamic deity. It's like taking Zeus from the pantheon and making him only god.

you really should read the Quran. it's got some very valuable lessons in there you might benefit from. + it tells you that Allah and your "God" are the same guy. it even teachers followers of Islam to respect christians because they're really believing in the same god - they just happen to have an outdated version of the scripture.

Yes it's a pro-islamic deity. Don't believe what Quran says. You like Quran but don't like the Bible? Now you reveal yourself.

Jesus warned that false-prophets will come. Because the prophets work was to tell about Jesus coming. This ended with the last one st.John the Baptist. Then it had no meaning to have other prophets. God has revealed.

A man who is kissing stones can't be Christian(muhammad). He is idolater.

Christians aren't selinized with this moon worship.

Allah is just one of the 360 Arabic idols.

We don't believe in the same God. They believe in an Idol. We believe in Holy Trinity. A Trishypostat God.

Yes it's a pro-islamic deity. Don't believe what Quran says. You like Quran but don't like the Bible? Now you reveal yourself.

I cannot reveal what I have not hidden. logic, you realise. and I'm not a muslim, by the way, i just read both scriptures and found the Quran MUCH better written. much more concise and it explicitly teaches tolerance. and respect towards others.

and that makes it different, how? christianity and the jewish faith have pagan origins, too.

valerios wrote:

Jesus warned that false-prophets will come. Because the prophets work was to tell about Jesus coming. This ended with the last one st.John the Baptist. Then it had no meaning to have other prophets. God has revealed.

okay, so, the dude can't be right because the dude before him said there's gonna be dudes later that ain't got it right. uhuhn. makes perfect sense

valerios wrote:

A man who is kissing stones can't be Christian(muhammad). He is idolater.

wait, what? you can't kiss stones if you're a Christian? that's one of your defining characteristics? I woulda thought of a lot, but not that. seriously. besides, Christians have idols of Jesus. and the cross. and the myriad of saints. so they're idolising too. mind explaining the difference?

valerios wrote:

Christians aren't selinized with this moon worship.

they worship YHWH, not the moon?

valerios wrote:

Allah is just one of the 360 Arabic idols.

you should read your sources somewhat more rigorously. it states:

Quote:

Prophet Muhammad discarded the 360 idols but retained for Islam, the Ka’aba with its Black Stone, justifying it with the claim that Abraham and Ishmael originally constructed it. However, there is no historical or archaeological evidence for the existence of the Ka’aba beyond a few hundred years before Muhammad's lifetime. In fact, Muhammad's own words disprove any connection he was attempting to make between Abraham, Ishmael and the Ka’aba.

so yeah, not exactly applicable to Islam.

valerios wrote:

We don't believe in the same God. They believe in an Idol. We believe in Holy Trinity. A Trishypostat God.

and your Holy Trinity is less of an "idol" (or rather symbol, really) for the same Jewish deity JHWH then "Allah"?_________________"Confident, lazy, cocky, dead." -- Felix Jongleur, Otherland

Yes it's a pro-islamic deity. Don't believe what Quran says. You like Quran but don't like the Bible? Now you reveal yourself.

I cannot reveal what I have not hidden. logic, you realise. and I'm not a muslim, by the way, i just read both scriptures and found the Quran MUCH better written. much more concise and it explicitly teaches tolerance. and respect towards others.

and that makes it different, how? christianity and the jewish faith have pagan origins, too.

valerios wrote:

Jesus warned that false-prophets will come. Because the prophets work was to tell about Jesus coming. This ended with the last one st.John the Baptist. Then it had no meaning to have other prophets. God has revealed.

okay, so, the dude can't be right because the dude before him said there's gonna be dudes later that ain't got it right. uhuhn. makes perfect sense

valerios wrote:

A man who is kissing stones can't be Christian(muhammad). He is idolater.

wait, what? you can't kiss stones if you're a Christian? that's one of your defining characteristics? I woulda thought of a lot, but not that. seriously. besides, Christians have idols of Jesus. and the cross. and the myriad of saints. so they're idolising too. mind explaining the difference?

valerios wrote:

Christians aren't selinized with this moon worship.

they worship YHWH, not the moon?

valerios wrote:

Allah is just one of the 360 Arabic idols.

you should read your sources somewhat more rigorously. it states:

Quote:

Prophet Muhammad discarded the 360 idols but retained for Islam, the Ka’aba with its Black Stone, justifying it with the claim that Abraham and Ishmael originally constructed it. However, there is no historical or archaeological evidence for the existence of the Ka’aba beyond a few hundred years before Muhammad's lifetime. In fact, Muhammad's own words disprove any connection he was attempting to make between Abraham, Ishmael and the Ka’aba.

so yeah, not exactly applicable to Islam.

valerios wrote:

We don't believe in the same God. They believe in an Idol. We believe in Holy Trinity. A Trishypostat God.

and your Holy Trinity is less of an "idol" (or rather symbol, really) for the same Jewish deity JHWH then "Allah"?

"okay, so, the dude can't be right because the dude before him said there's gonna be dudes later that ain't got it right. uhuhn. makes perfect sense "
Yeah because prophets told that about Him and that he'd come to save people.

"and that makes it different, how? christianity and the jewish faith have pagan origins, too. "
No they don't. Except when Jews became idolaters. But the prophets and others no...

"so yeah, not exactly applicable to Islam. "
Still has pagan origins from Hubal and others...

"they worship YHWH, not the moon? "
No we worship the Holy Trinity.

"wait, what? you can't kiss stones if you're a Christian? that's one of your defining characteristics? I woulda thought of a lot, but not that. seriously. besides, Christians have idols of Jesus. and the cross. and the myriad of saints. so they're idolising too. mind explaining the difference? "

Yes. It's idolatric kissing stones. And im Orthodox. I don't have monuments of Jesus & Mary... This is idol. Not the holy icons.

Code:

About icons:

<<We believe as they saw (in their visions) the prophets, as the apostles taught, as the Church received the faith, and her teachers worded her, as he Churches of the world agreed, as divine grace shone, as the truth has been proved and the lie left, as wisdom frankness confessed and Christ rewarded.

So we think, and speak, so we preach the Christ, the true God and the deeds of his saints honoring them with words, authors, thoughts, spiritual sacrifices, with churches and with icons.We worship and respect Christ, because he is God and Master, we honor the saints because they are true servants of the public Despot awarding them relative veneration (not worship).>>

-Excerpt from the session of the Seventh Ecumenical Synod:

<<If we made the icon of the invisible God, indeed we'd sin. Because it's impossible to image the incorporeal and the unformed and the invisible and the indescribability. And again. If we made icons of human and would take them for Gods and worshiped them, indeed we'd be disrespectful.

But we don't do anything like these. Because, God became incarnate and was revealed on earth with flesh and communicated with people and took nature and size and shape and flesh colour, making the icon we don't error. Because we crave to see his form, as the divine apostle says: “Now we see God inside a mirror and blurred.” )A'Cor. 13,12). And the icon is a mirror and enigma that fits with the stoutness of our body because as much as our mind toiled it cannot overcome the physical(bodily) limits, says the divine Gregory(Speech 28,13)>>.

-st.J.Damascene, To those who calumniated the holy icons 2,5 p257

He was inspired from St.Basil the Great who wrote: it crosses to the original.

So it crosses to the prototype which is fantastic and nonexistent. But according to the Orthodox faith and material can sanctify and takes the energy and grace of God(as the cross of Christ, the water of sancrify etc...). So and the holy images are respected and honoured from the believes as St.John Damascene says.

And others like st.Theodoros the Stoudite and others said these things.

Because as St.John Damascene says: <<In the early years God, the incorporeal and unshaped wasn't depicted. But now because he was made seen by flesh and communicated with people, i image the seen (face) of God>>
We don't image the unseen face of God but the seen... Iconifying the unseed would be blasphemy.
Those faces iconify a "secret" reality, the glory of heaven. The iconified in the holy icon looks like the prototype but and differs from this. The human characteristics are distorted,transformed. The earthly and natural analogies don't apply anymore, because the iconified person participates in another reality, the divine grace, in heavenly status. Besides, the divine grace is that which makes the holy icons thaumaturgic(miraculous).

Bigun: I'm truly sorry for bombing your thread, I had not intended to do so.

valerios wrote:

"okay, so, the dude can't be right because the dude before him said there's gonna be dudes later that ain't got it right. uhuhn. makes perfect sense "
Yeah because prophets told that about Him and that he'd come to save people.

valerios wrote:

"and that makes it different, how? christianity and the jewish faith have pagan origins, too. "
No they don't. Except when Jews became idolaters. But the prophets and others no...

"wait, what? you can't kiss stones if you're a Christian? that's one of your defining characteristics? I woulda thought of a lot, but not that. seriously. besides, Christians have idols of Jesus. and the cross. and the myriad of saints. so they're idolising too. mind explaining the difference? "

Yes. It's idolatric kissing stones. And im Orthodox. I don't have monuments of Jesus & Mary... This is idol. Not the holy icons.

so you follow a religion with a deity that requires exclusive loyalty to their cause, but does suffer from schizophrenia and a mild form of multiple personality disorder, but at the same time shuns any ritualistic involvement of idols that would represent him, presumably except for the stuff that does happen at special causes every now and then? right. okay then. *cough*

In the interest of not further disturbing Bigun's thread, I will refrain from discussing this any further in this thread in particular._________________"Confident, lazy, cocky, dead." -- Felix Jongleur, Otherland

Bigun: I'm truly sorry for bombing your thread, I had not intended to do so.

valerios wrote:

"okay, so, the dude can't be right because the dude before him said there's gonna be dudes later that ain't got it right. uhuhn. makes perfect sense "
Yeah because prophets told that about Him and that he'd come to save people.

valerios wrote:

"and that makes it different, how? christianity and the jewish faith have pagan origins, too. "
No they don't. Except when Jews became idolaters. But the prophets and others no...

"wait, what? you can't kiss stones if you're a Christian? that's one of your defining characteristics? I woulda thought of a lot, but not that. seriously. besides, Christians have idols of Jesus. and the cross. and the myriad of saints. so they're idolising too. mind explaining the difference? "

Yes. It's idolatric kissing stones. And im Orthodox. I don't have monuments of Jesus & Mary... This is idol. Not the holy icons.

so you follow a religion with a deity that requires exclusive loyalty to their cause, but does suffer from schizophrenia and a mild form of multiple personality disorder, but at the same time shuns any ritualistic involvement of idols that would represent him, presumably except for the stuff that does happen at special causes every now and then? right. okay then. *cough*

In the interest of not further disturbing Bigun's thread, I will refrain from discussing this any further in this thread in particular.

"which is YHWH. and i meant they = the muslims. "
Holy Trinity isn't a monohypostat God. It's a trihypostat God.

"so you follow a religion with a deity that requires exclusive loyalty to their cause, but does suffer from schizophrenia and a mild form of multiple personality disorder, but at the same time shuns any ritualistic involvement of idols that would represent him, presumably except for the stuff that does happen at special causes every now and then? right. okay then. *cough."
Read more what i've sent you... It's not szhizophrenic. Ordinary people...

Also i tell you as a Greek that they never believed that Dionysus was crucified or even ressurected. There isn't evidence for ressurection and ressurection didn't exist then.They were celebrating the seasons as a passage. Using anachronistic terms like: ancient Greeks where anti-semetic or: ancient Greeks were philosimetic and stereotyping, ruins antiquity.

I am personally an atheist however I don't feel the need to bother other people just because they believe in something else if they keep that to themselves. However if they are harming other people or imposing there beliefs on others then that is where problems start and that is what makes me want to argue with those people. Now what harms people and what does not can be hard to tell. There are already many people focused (focused meaning actively protesting against it or telling others why that is wrong) on physical harm which is easy to identify. People seem to ignore some forms of mental harm that many religions impose on people. I personally think that teaching creationism harms the mind.

I am personally an atheist however I don't feel the need to bother other people just because they believe in something else if they keep that to themselves. However if they are harming other people or imposing there beliefs on others then that is where problems start and that is what makes me want to argue with those people. Now what harms people and what does not can be hard to tell. There are already many people focused (focused meaning actively protesting against it or telling others why that is wrong) on physical harm which is easy to identify. People seem to ignore some forms of mental harm that many religions impose on people. I personally think that teaching creationism harms the mind.

This is my attitude. Holding out signs in public and sidewalk preaching accomplishes nearly nothing. I would say 99% of people passing by don't care, have heard the message, and just want to get on with their lives. Currently that kind of activity would do better in Africa or China, where the current hub of Christianity is blossoming or about to blossom.

Now if someone asks me questions about what I believe or why, I answer the best way I can. Being an ass or being intrusive accomplishes nothing.

I am personally an atheist however I don't feel the need to bother other people just because they believe in something else if they keep that to themselves. However if they are harming other people or imposing there beliefs on others then that is where problems start and that is what makes me want to argue with those people. Now what harms people and what does not can be hard to tell. There are already many people focused (focused meaning actively protesting against it or telling others why that is wrong) on physical harm which is easy to identify. People seem to ignore some forms of mental harm that many religions impose on people. I personally think that teaching creationism harms the mind.

This is my attitude. Holding out signs in public and sidewalk preaching accomplishes nearly nothing. I would say 99% of people passing by don't care, have heard the message, and just want to get on with their lives. Currently that kind of activity would do better in Africa or China, where the current hub of Christianity is blossoming or about to blossom.

Now if someone asks me questions about what I believe or why, I answer the best way I can. Being an ass or being intrusive accomplishes nothing.

I don't encourage preaching with signs.

ComputerNerd wrote:

I am personally an atheist however I don't feel the need to bother other people just because they believe in something else if they keep that to themselves. However if they are harming other people or imposing there beliefs on others then that is where problems start and that is what makes me want to argue with those people. Now what harms people and what does not can be hard to tell. There are already many people focused (focused meaning actively protesting against it or telling others why that is wrong) on physical harm which is easy to identify. People seem to ignore some forms of mental harm that many religions impose on people. I personally think that teaching creationism harms the mind.

I've told to the other guy that Islam is monotheistic religion with pagan roots. That's all i've said.

When someone told about my faith i preferred to answer him just to know because i don't won't misundertandings.

John-Boy wrote:

Formal religion is all a load of balls - get the feeling that there is something however,
but it certainly ain't an old chap with a flowing white beard.

I don't know if there's a God or Gods or no god at all. There seems to be more proof for the latter - at least a lot more consistency with the scientific method - but even that's fallible and well. Correlation does not mean causation, etc., etc.... just that there's enough evidence to point one direction, I tend to go that direction but won't go as far as thinking less of someone because they believe in something that can't be proven. They still might be right after all. Just that another human can't convince me by words, I need scientifically proven evidence._________________Intel Core i7 2700K@ 4.1GHz/HD3000 graphics/8GB DDR3/180GB SSDWhat am I supposed to be advocating?

I don't know if there's a God or Gods or no god at all. There seems to be more proof for the latter - at least a lot more consistency with the scientific method - but even that's fallible and well. Correlation does not mean causation, etc., etc.... just that there's enough evidence to point one direction, I tend to go that direction but won't go as far as thinking less of someone because they believe in something that can't be proven. They still might be right after all. Just that another human can't convince me by words, I need scientifically proven evidence.

I don't know if there's a God or Gods or no god at all. There seems to be more proof for the latter - at least a lot more consistency with the scientific method - but even that's fallible and well. Correlation does not mean causation, etc., etc.... just that there's enough evidence to point one direction, I tend to go that direction but won't go as far as thinking less of someone because they believe in something that can't be proven. They still might be right after all. Just that another human can't convince me by words, I need scientifically proven evidence.

There are many things that aren't proved scientifically 100% and aren't accepted. For example darwins theory...

But all of these you've said are good things.

“Science” is the study of everything created. “Theology” is the revelation of the Uncreated. The two of them together, are the two legs that help one to stand upright in the world, by having proper knowledge of one’s environment, as well as of one’s Creator.

In this section, we intend to include topics that not only bring out the unity between science and faith, but also either verify issues of faith, or assist in a more profound understanding of the findings of science.

It is our belief, that if a person lacks one of these two legs, his understanding of the world and the purpose of life will be lame.

It's less agnostic.

And one believer can be and a good scientist. For example St.Luke the doctor(archbishop of Crimaia +1961) was the first man who did transplant from a kidney's calf to a young patient with almost nothing and 100% success.

Never said that it was - if somebody held their own beliefs and conducted their own
rituals, then what's the difference.

What do you mean?

When Jesus rose from the dead his worship was established.
Orthodoxy is since 33AD with the Pentecost. We haven't changed anything from our faith since then.

We're at cross purposes here, I think - I'm on about personal beliefs, not anything formal.

The difference of Orthodoxy with the religions is that the other religions don't cure man.

from impantokr:

Code:

Many believe that Orthodoxy is one of the many "churches" around. Namely one viewpoint of Christianity, or others believe that Orthodoxy is a religion. Both these viewpoints are absolutely false. Orthodoxy basically means true glory or true faith. She is not one of the "churches" because she is the ONLY true Church of Christ. This naturally is not pride but the TRUTH. Since the Lord instituted only one Church, how can we speak of many? Moreover, Orthodoxy cannot be called a religion because a religion is superstition, it (every religion) tries to cover the psychological needs of man. In contrast Orthodoxy heals the spiritually ailing man (meaning every man) and renders him holy, this being the tangible and obvious proof of her truth.