TRF and TFP... was this Moriarty's plan all along? Really?

I rewatched TRF yesterday and almost couldn't sleep thinking about this:

In the roof scene (and during the whole S1 and S2, actually) Moriarty looks like he is completely and utterly invested in destroying Sherlock, for very personal reasons, willing to do everything to burn him, willing to DIE in order to make Sherlock kill himself.

But in TFP we learn that actually the big fat evil surprise was Eurus' Island of Pain, that had already been discussed and planned by her and Moriarty when TRF happens, so much that Moriarty even recorded sounds and bits to join the fun.

And Moriarty says "welcome to the Final Problem" in TFP, so that (the Sherrinford setup) has been The Final Problem all along, the one he mentions over and over in TRF. It's not like they/she thought about it as a backup plan in case Moriarty's original Problem failed; The Final Problem was Eurus' experiment/revenge/whatever that was all along.

(although, now that I think of it, Moriarty says "welcome to the Final Problem" to the girl in the plane, in a situation that actually doesn't exist, so he doesn't really say it... hmmmm...)

If you look at it this way, Moriarty killing himself doesn't make any sense. Because if you want to kill Sherlock so bad, why make an elaborate plan to torture him later, a plan in which JM assumed he would be dead and Eurus would be getting all the "fun"? And why refer over and over to that Final Problem, if your first plan is to eliminate Sherlock here and now, and you are even willing to kill yourself to make that happen?

What do you guys think? Is there anything I'm missing? Has this been discussed earlier?

My only hypothesis (after rereading my own message xD) is: Moriarty never said "welcome to the Final Problem", so that wasn't his Final Problem at all. He helped Eurus in case something was wrong with his plan... and the problem he refers to in TRF was for Sherlock to decide whether he would die to save his friends.

But looks a bit disappointing as an explanation :/

"It is what it is""You see, but you do not observe"

"I shall die upon a cloud of Johnlock fluff and have my body launched into the sun". - LadyTuesday

Re: TRF and TFP... was this Moriarty's plan all along? Really?

It's a while since I've thought about TRF in depth, so I maybe be off the mark, but I'm thinking that both Eurus and Moriarty were obsessed with Sherlock and both had their own agendas with him, both were trying to change him in some way. I'm guessing that "Redbeard" was the clue that led to Moriarty setting up a situation where Sherlock had the opportunity to save his friends or let them die (as he did in his childhood) in TRF. I don't think either of them really wanted to kill Sherlock (Eurus never did, Moriarty might have wanted to eventually).

I've tended to think in that rooftop scene, that Sherlock manipulates Moriarty into killing himself, by showing that he isn't one of the angels and is absorbing characteristics of Moriarty. Moriarty kills himself to leave Sherlock with that terrible dilemma of killing his friends or himself. If Sherlock is the hero, he'd die in shame. If he's not, then he allows his friends to be killed, and turns into something darker and closer to Moriarty - and this may be even more appealing to Moriarty than Sherlock killing himself. Anyway, that was Moriarty's agenda, and it doesn't matter to him that he's recorded things for Eurus to use later. These would be used on "dark" Sherlock, who is the only version who would survive.

But I think Eurus is more prescient and believes that Sherlock will outfox Moriarty, which he does. He solves the puzzle to save his friends. Being able to save his friends (and himself) turns him more towards "light" Sherlock - he does come back in S3 somehow gentler, more empathetic, etc (in my opinion). He's closer to being the person who can save Eurus in the end.

Re: TRF and TFP... was this Moriarty's plan all along? Really?

I've been thinking about this too and haven't found any satisfying explanation. The contradictions between Moriarty's eagerness to make Sherlock commit suicide in TRF and his involvement in Eurus's elaborate plans in TFP are one of the reasons why I still don't like TFP as a whole although I do enjoy some of the scenes. Turning Moriarty into a mere tool in the hands of Eurus has somehow devalued his former status as Sherlock's archenemy.

Re: TRF and TFP... was this Moriarty's plan all along? Really?

Yes, there is no satisfactory explanation and I still think that Eurus is not real. She is part of Sherlock's psyche, representing the overly rational, emotionless parts of him (which Mycroft has always stressed, if not brainwashed, in him) that are fighting against his human, compassionate side. I really do not see three actual Holmes siblings and Sherlock being the idiot amongst them.

To me, Jim still represents all things Sherlock is afraid of and yet knows that are part of him - most of all darkness and sexuality. In the light of Eurus actually exisiting, the whole Carl Powers story does not make sense. But if you assume that Sherlock himself caused (or feels at least guilty about) Victor's death, the whole story becomes a lot more plausible. Another boy dying in water, Sherlock trying to solve the case that appeals to his subconscious.

------------------------------"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

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Re: TRF and TFP... was this Moriarty's plan all along? Really?

I disagree that the events in TRF and TFP don't make sense and I also disagree that Moriarty was a mere tool of Eurus.

a) All the Events in series 1 took place before Eurus and Moriarty ever met. So Moriarty was already obsessed with the thought of destroying Sherlock before he ever met Eurus. And - as Sherlock pointed out in TRF - he also had a certain death wish: He just wanted to destroy Sherlock and did't mind dying himself in the process (as we could see in pool scene in TGG: He wouldn't have minded Sherlock shooting at the bomb, killing them all).

b) Sometime before SiB Eurus was doing some terrorist-attack research for Mycroft. I guess during that research she also found out about Moriarty and his eagerness on destroying Sherlock. As she had her own plans for her brother, she needed Moriarty out of the picture. But she also needed someone to help her get out of Sherrinford. Hence her request for Moriarty as a Christmas treat.

c) I think during their meeting, she didn't need to manipulate Moriarty at all. His mind was already set on destroying Sherlock and she only provided him with a plan of how to do it. She probably suggested - among other things - gaining as much personal information as possible from Mycroft and making Sherlock chose between his own life and his friends' life. She told him that losing a friend - Redbeard - was Sherlock's weak spot. And I guess she also gave him the idea of killing hiself to insure his plan would work. As she mentions herself in TFP, Moriarty was quite willing to die if his death could cause more trouble than his life. Which is perfectly in character with what we have seen in TGG. So I don't think there was any hypnosis or manipulation needed from Eurus' side, she just provided Moriarty with the basics of his plan in TRF.

d) Moriarty's plan as we see it in TRF has two possible outcomes: Sherlock killing himself or Sherlock being responsible for his friend's death. I think Eurus convinced Moriarty that - in the unlikely case Sherlock chose the latter option - she would make sure Moriarty would still torture Sherlock post mortem and finish his distruction. Hence she requested him to record those videos and send them to her. I don't think he knew any more details of her plan, being sure that Sherlock would chose to jump off the roof anyway.

e) In exchange for her help Eurus asked Moriarty to privide her with the means she needed to get out of Sherrinformd. Money, a place to stay while she was out, cloths, probably even people on the in- and outside to help her gain control over Sherrinford.

f) Of Course Eurus herself didn't want Moriarty to succed. She wanted him out of the picture but wanted Sherlock to be alive in the end. I guess she knew that Mycroft would grow suspicious as soon as Moriarty started to ask personal questions about Sherlock and that her two brothers would figure out a plan how to outsmart Moriarty.

g) Then, during the events of HoB Mycroft was questioning Moriarty and Moriarty agreed to share some information in exchange for personal information about Sherlock. Mycroft told Sherlock and they figured out the plan we see in TRF. Remember that Sherlock tells Andersen in TEH that he had known all along that Mycroft was feeding Moriarty personal information about him and that this was part of their plan? Of course we don't know for sure if that scene really happened or if Sherlock told the truth there, but Molly noticed quite early on during TRF that Sherlock was looking sadly at John when he thought no one was looking. So Sherlock must have known very early on in TRF that he would end up hurting John. I think that's a hint that it's true that he and Mycroft had planned a lot of the events in TRF in advance.

I think in that order the events make sense. Moriarty wasn't a mere tool, Eurus didn't make him do anything he didn't want to do. She just gave him an idea which he thought was good. Anyway he was outsmarted by Sherlock and Mycroft. Why exactly is TRF less enjoyable or Moriarty a lesser villain because he was outsmarted not only by the two Brothers, by Eurus as well? Does that really make such a big difference?

Why was Moriarty talking about "The Final Problem" in the videos? Well, in the TRF he was convinced that Sherlock's final problem was the choice of either jumping off the roof or condemning his friends to death. Even if Moriarty was quite sure Sherlock would chose the first option, there was still a possibility that he could chose the latter. And in that case, Eurus had promised to finish what Moriarty had begun. Her plan would then - in the eyes of Moriarty - just have been the continuation of his "Final Problem" and the actual end of Sherlock Holmes. So him talking about "The Final Problem" in his videos makes sense.

Re: TRF and TFP... was this Moriarty's plan all along? Really?

Kae Em wrote:

I disagree that the events in TRF and TFP don't make sense and I also disagree that Moriarty was a mere tool of Eurus.

a) All the Events in series 1 took place before Eurus and Moriarty ever met. So Moriarty was already obsessed with the thought of destroying Sherlock before he ever met Eurus. And - as Sherlock pointed out in TRF - he also had a certain death wish: He just wanted to destroy Sherlock and did't mind dying himself in the process (as we could see in pool scene in TGG: He wouldn't have minded Sherlock shooting at the bomb, killing them all).

b) Sometime before SiB Eurus was doing some terrorist-attack research for Mycroft. I guess during that research she also found out about Moriarty and his eagerness on destroying Sherlock. As she had her own plans for her brother, she needed Moriarty out of the picture. But she also needed someone to help her get out of Sherrinford. Hence her request for Moriarty as a Christmas treat.

c) I think during their meeting, she didn't need to manipulate Moriarty at all. His mind was already set on destroying Sherlock and she only provided him with a plan of how to do it. She probably suggested - among other things - gaining as much personal information as possible from Mycroft and making Sherlock chose between his own life and his friends' life. She told him that losing a friend - Redbeard - was Sherlock's weak spot. And I guess she also gave him the idea of killing hiself to insure his plan would work. As she mentions herself in TFP, Moriarty was quite willing to die if his death could cause more trouble than his life. Which is perfectly in character with what we have seen in TGG. So I don't think there was any hypnosis or manipulation needed from Eurus' side, she just provided Moriarty with the basics of his plan in TRF.

d) Moriarty's plan as we see it in TRF has two possible outcomes: Sherlock killing himself or Sherlock being responsible for his friend's death. I think Eurus convinced Moriarty that - in the unlikely case Sherlock chose the latter option - she would make sure Moriarty would still torture Sherlock post mortem and finish his distruction. Hence she requested him to record those videos and send them to her. I don't think he knew any more details of her plan, being sure that Sherlock would chose to jump off the roof anyway.

e) In exchange for her help Eurus asked Moriarty to privide her with the means she needed to get out of Sherrinformd. Money, a place to stay while she was out, cloths, probably even people on the in- and outside to help her gain control over Sherrinford.

f) Of Course Eurus herself didn't want Moriarty to succed. She wanted him out of the picture but wanted Sherlock to be alive in the end. I guess she knew that Mycroft would grow suspicious as soon as Moriarty started to ask personal questions about Sherlock and that her two brothers would figure out a plan how to outsmart Moriarty.

g) Then, during the events of HoB Mycroft was questioning Moriarty and Moriarty agreed to share some information in exchange for personal information about Sherlock. Mycroft told Sherlock and they figured out the plan we see in TRF. Remember that Sherlock tells Andersen in TEH that he had known all along that Mycroft was feeding Moriarty personal information about him and that this was part of their plan? Of course we don't know for sure if that scene really happened or if Sherlock told the truth there, but Molly noticed quite early on during TRF that Sherlock was looking sadly at John when he thought no one was looking. So Sherlock must have known very early on in TRF that he would end up hurting John. I think that's a hint that it's true that he and Mycroft had planned a lot of the events in TRF in advance.

I think in that order the events make sense. Moriarty wasn't a mere tool, Eurus didn't make him do anything he didn't want to do. She just gave him an idea which he thought was good. Anyway he was outsmarted by Sherlock and Mycroft. Why exactly is TRF less enjoyable or Moriarty a lesser villain because he was outsmarted not only by the two Brothers, by Eurus as well? Does that really make such a big difference?

Why was Moriarty talking about "The Final Problem" in the videos? Well, in the TRF he was convinced that Sherlock's final problem was the choice of either jumping off the roof or condemning his friends to death. Even if Moriarty was quite sure Sherlock would chose the first option, there was still a possibility that he could chose the latter. And in that case, Eurus had promised to finish what Moriarty had begun. Her plan would then - in the eyes of Moriarty - just have been the continuation of his "Final Problem" and the actual end of Sherlock Holmes. So him talking about "The Final Problem" in his videos makes sense.

This makes a lot of sense. One question though: if Sherlock had chosen to avoid the fall and condemn his friends to death, John wouldn't have been in Sherrinford later on. And I think I remember Eurus saying something about Jim anticipating that Sherlock would choose John over Mycroft, didn't she?

Or maybe he didn't think it through that much?

"It is what it is""You see, but you do not observe"

"I shall die upon a cloud of Johnlock fluff and have my body launched into the sun". - LadyTuesday

Re: TRF and TFP... was this Moriarty's plan all along? Really?

Elemental wrote:

One question though: if Sherlock had chosen to avoid the fall and condemn his friends to death, John wouldn't have been in Sherrinford later on. And I think I remember Eurus saying something about Jim anticipating that Sherlock would choose John over Mycroft, didn't she?

Or maybe he didn't think it through that much?

Thanks for giving me an excuse to watch this scene again (not that I really needed one)

What Eurus says is: "Jim Moriarty thought you'd make that choice, he was so excited." Then comes one of Moriarty's videos in which he says: "And here you are. The end of the line. Holmes killing Holmes."

My explanation for this is that Moriarty, when he recorded this video, thought that - if Sherlock should chose not to jump off the roof - Eurus would kill Sherlock in the end. So when he said "Holmes killing Holmes", he actually meant Eurus killing Sherlock, not Sherlock killing Mycroft. Of course, for effect, Eurus created a situation in which she could use this video and make it look as if Moriarty had forseen everything that would happen, make Sherlock believe that his arch enemy had in fact been cleverer than him. But we only have her word that Moriarty had seen this coming, and she's not exactly trustworthy.

So my explanation in short would be: Moriarty didn't forsee anything of what really happened in that room, he thought that Eurus would kill Sherlock, thus Holmes killing Holmes.

Re: TRF and TFP... was this Moriarty's plan all along? Really?

Kae Em wrote:

Elemental wrote:

One question though: if Sherlock had chosen to avoid the fall and condemn his friends to death, John wouldn't have been in Sherrinford later on. And I think I remember Eurus saying something about Jim anticipating that Sherlock would choose John over Mycroft, didn't she?

Or maybe he didn't think it through that much?

Thanks for giving me an excuse to watch this scene again (not that I really needed one)

What Eurus says is: "Jim Moriarty thought you'd make that choice, he was so excited." Then comes one of Moriarty's videos in which he says: "And here you are. The end of the line. Holmes killing Holmes."

My explanation for this is that Moriarty, when he recorded this video, thought that - if Sherlock should chose not to jump off the roof - Eurus would kill Sherlock in the end. So when he said "Holmes killing Holmes", he actually meant Eurus killing Sherlock, not Sherlock killing Mycroft. Of course, for effect, Eurus created a situation in which she could use this video and make it look as if Moriarty had forseen everything that would happen, make Sherlock believe that his arch enemy had in fact been cleverer than him. But we only have her word that Moriarty had seen this coming, and she's not exactly trustworthy.

So my explanation in short would be: Moriarty didn't forsee anything of what really happened in that room, he thought that Eurus would kill Sherlock, thus Holmes killing Holmes.

Hahah you are welcome

That makes sense, thanks.

I was watching some TJLC meta a few days ago and came across an explanation of possible foreshadowing in TBB. Soo Lin is supposed to be Sherlock's mirror, and she's threatened by "the spider" (Sherlock will say in TRF that "Moriarty is not a man, Moriarty is a spider"), who is receiving orders from the Chinese woman who tries to kill John and Sarah later (I can't remember the name). If that theory is correct, then we do have clues about Eurus being behind Moriarty all along, in some way at least.

And the first letter in TGG was supposedly written by a woman... Could that be Eurus too?

"It is what it is""You see, but you do not observe"

"I shall die upon a cloud of Johnlock fluff and have my body launched into the sun". - LadyTuesday

Re: TRF and TFP... was this Moriarty's plan all along? Really?

Yeah, it is not satisfying. I don't really buy the Eurus/Moriarty connection and why exactly the writers decided to do what they did. It seems a bit too forced to me and Moriarty is losing his significance as Sherlock's archenemy. It has always been Sherlock vs Moriarty. Even not so long ago in TAB: It's always just you and me; Moriarty as the virus inside Sherlock...

But I am convinced that Eurus could ask Moriarty to record all sorts of "psycho videos", random stuff, stuff that would drive Sherlock mad, stuff without a plan in the first place, but that could be helpful in some scenario later. So the "Holmes killing Holmes" line could have been recorded just in case. I imagine if Eurus asked Moriarty in a hypothetical scenario, whom Sherlock would kill, his brother or John, Moriarty would have the greatest fun in saying "Holmes killing Holmes."

Some time after TFP another explanation came to my mind: Holmes killing Holmes could also mean: here we are, Sherlock committing suicide, Sherlock killing Sherlock = Holmes killing Holmes.In this case maybe it is possible that Moriarty said this with The Reichenbach Fall in his mind. Again, out of fun and excitement, because well, what use would it be, if Moriarty is convinced that Sherlock will jump of the roof and never see the video. Or as you said as a gift for Eurus, if she had to finish the game for him.

And another idea if you see it as Sherlock killing Sherlock: (I have seen TFP only once, and only a few seperate scenes afterwards, so maybe I don't remember correctly.) Eurus played this recording for Sherlock to hear it shortly after he seemed to have decided to shoot Mycroft. The only way to save his friends in TRF has been to commit suicide. The only way to save his friend and brother now is again to commit suicide! Maybe Eurus reminded Sherlock of this on purpose. Or Sherlock remembered what to do now, the only way out. This idea has two possible ways to end: a) Eurus really wanted to destroy/kill Sherlock for good, so she played Moriarty's line so that Sherlock would remember to kill himself rather than his friends. b) She doesn't want Sherlock to die and needed a reason (=prevent his suicide) to knock all of them out, so that Sherlock would finally find out in the end how he could save herself.

Re: TRF and TFP... was this Moriarty's plan all along? Really?

I kind of like the idea of the TRF, connection (Holmes killing Holmes = suicide). I'm not sure that Eurus wanted Sherlock's mind to go that way though. Assuming there wasn't a plan B, she needed John and Sherlock alive.

Re: TRF and TFP... was this Moriarty's plan all along? Really?

Rache wrote:

And another idea if you see it as Sherlock killing Sherlock: (I have seen TFP only once, and only a few seperate scenes afterwards, so maybe I don't remember correctly.) Eurus played this recording for Sherlock to hear it shortly after he seemed to have decided to shoot Mycroft. The only way to save his friends in TRF has been to commit suicide. The only way to save his friend and brother now is again to commit suicide! Maybe Eurus reminded Sherlock of this on purpose. Or Sherlock remembered what to do now, the only way out. This idea has two possible ways to end: a) Eurus really wanted to destroy/kill Sherlock for good, so she played Moriarty's line so that Sherlock would remember to kill himself rather than his friends. b) She doesn't want Sherlock to die and needed a reason (=prevent his suicide) to knock all of them out, so that Sherlock would finally find out in the end how he could save herself.

Just ideas.... What do you think?

Eurus trying to give Sherlock a clue is interesting as a theory, and well thought of. But at the same time, it would take all meaning off Sherlock's gesture, that eventually saved Mycroft and John, and it would make him again a puppet in Eurus' hands. And I don't like the idea of Eurus being this omnipotent genius who has everything figured out and is ultimately behind all the characters' choices. Sherlock makes a bold move threatening her with killing himself, so I'd prefer to think that it's his own idea and not some kind of evil-genius subconscious manipulation.

I do like, though, the idea of Sherlock connecting the dots and getting the idea of attempting to kill himself from the "Holmes killing Holmes" line. It's elegant

"It is what it is""You see, but you do not observe"

"I shall die upon a cloud of Johnlock fluff and have my body launched into the sun". - LadyTuesday