As the loquacious Christopher Hitchen's repeated said, "Genital Mutilation is NO JOKE".

How can anyone think it is ok to do this to children, all in the name of God? The truth lies in the fact that religion HATES your sexuality and wants
you to be both ashamed of it and to be scarred for life - that to lessen your sexual pleasure somehow makes you more closer to God's ideals.

As an American I find it interesting that so many can be so shoked by the genital mutilation cases from Africa our news is so keen to show us, but
they themselves have been mutilated! Talk about brain washing. Why is this barbaric and evil practice allowed here? Of course there are cases where
a circumcision is done for medical reasons - this is entirely different and not my point. I am discussing the forced religious practice.

I realize Germany has a lot wrong with it, but regarding this (and scientology) they have it right. Who are YOU to say I should have my genitals
mutilated because your God demands it? How disgusting and absurd. It is one practice of religion that cannot in any way be argued as "making sense",
even from a faith based claim. It is tortuous, dangerous, and an act of violence against someone who cannot make that decision for themselves. It is
a "marking" by those who are forcing their will and beliefs upon those who cannot fight back. It is sadistic and shows how long we have to go.

"The religious freedom of the parents and their right to educate their child would not be unacceptably compromised, if they were obliged to wait
until the child could himself decide to be circumcised," the court added.

Text"The body of the child is irreparably and permanently changed by a circumcision," the court said. "This change contravenes the interests of
the child to decide later on his religious beliefs."

"Unlike many politicians, the court has not allowed itself to be scared off by charges of anti-Semitism or religious intolerance," added
Putzke.

And what does this do to the "separation of Church and State?" Jews (and others) have been doing this long before the US or Germany existed. Are
the Jews complaining? Does this deprive the boys of sexual pleasure? Does it increase health risks? (I believe the answer to each is "no.")

If the boys thought this was a bad deal why have they not stopped the practice? What harm is being prevented? In short, I don't understand why
German government power is being used against Jews (and others).

You are quite right this has been going on for millenia. It has been forced upon the unsuspecting and those with no voice as a "religious"
practice. I again ask, who in their right mind would ever have dreamed up such a thing? Is it not sadistic and cruel to cut your genitals with a
knife because "God told me so"? We have outlawed slavery you know.

Originally posted by dorkfish87
This is quite fitting. Germany hasn't exactly shown itself as a defender of religious rights that they disagree with.

I might agree with this if they outlawed dangerous practices in other faiths

I'm not sure I am following. Without knowing, I will agree ANY "dangerous practice" as stated by religion (no condoms comes suddenly to mind)
should be erased. The wilful mutilation of children sounds, frankly satanic.

If we are going to outlaw this because the boy has no say in it, then outlaw teaching your religious beliefs to your children. Same thing. As for the
mutilating part, in my opinion uncircumsized penises look odd to me and honestly stink. Even freshly showered.

Well, I believe if someone is old enough to consent to this, they should be able to do what they want to their own bodies. Even kids taught religion
can change their views later in life. You can't change this.

It should be each individuals CHOICE whether they get circumcised not forced on them by Church Government or Parents It is your vessel your body your
soul and no one else has the right to chop off part of your wang. Until we grow past this forced barbaric practice we are collectively ignorant.

Thanks for the share OP. For all those saying its cleaner it looks nicer that's an opinion not fact. In fact the foreskin not only has thousands of
nerves but produces its own lubricant. The forced removal of it is abuse plain and simple.

Originally posted by dorkfish87
Well then what about the small percent of kids born with gills or tails. Taking them off would be cruel by your standard.

? How so? What part of the bible states that we should do that? How is religious genital mutilation comparable to cosmetically altering a "tail"?
I agree that the child has no say in the matter but the intent of the parent is to make the child "normal" and thus they have a more "normal"
life - by removing an abnormality. The religious zealots who claim it is is required to slice your genitals offer nothing but their notions of
repression of your sex drive.

Excellent points. It is YOUR vessel - the one that WAS MADE IN GOD'S IMAGE (or so religious people tell me) -And if that is the case, why are we
whacking away at baby's genitals? Did God mess up the genitals somehow?

those are mutations not something that humanity has gained through millions of years of evolution and inherent to every male on the planet (and
personally i believe that should be a choice if it werent for the social stigma of having gills or a tale that would permanently harm the psyche of
the child)

This is certainly a religious rite that has been so instilled that we seem to be indoctrinated to be appalled at even thinking not to cut off that
piece of flesh from birth. Doctors have pretty much been condoning/supporting this for a very long time.

Here's the first example of a fight over it that I know of. Me thinks that Zipporah, the wife of Moses, refused to let her son's foreskin be cut
off.........

Exodus 4:24

And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the Lord met him, and sought to kill him.

25 Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me.

26 So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision.

I wonder how this ruling, in Germany, will effect ear piercing of babies? When are they of age to consent to piercings, tatoos etc.

I'm still upset about my tonsils being taken out, because of my age and the insurance policy, not because of an illness.

As my earlier post didn't answer the question you were asking, let me try more directly. There are four parts to your post, however. Mind if I take
them one by one?

It has been forced upon the unsuspecting and those with no voice as a "religious" practice.

You're quite right. Those people do
grow up to have voices and the ability to decide whether to do it. There doesn't seem to be any large Jewish outrage, so perhaps those who are
circumcised come to see it's value as they don't try to stop it.

I again ask, who in their right mind would ever have dreamed up such a
thing?

Well, of course, we only know it's general foundation, but does it matter? Who ever dreamed up eating raw oysters? It's disgusting
to me, but certain people swear by it. Would circumcision be better in your mind if it had been dreamed up by somebody else? Say perhaps a pediatric
physician decided it was, all in all, healthier. Would you accept it then?

Is it not sadistic and cruel to cut your genitals with a knife
because "God told me so"?

Again, what if it was for some other reason than religion, OK then? Besides, you really can't have it both
ways. You can't complain that it is done for religious reasons and also claim that it was done from sadism and cruelty. The parents don't believe
it is sadistic and cruel. Why should the state tell them that this procedure is sadistic and cruel? Additionally, what is the effect on the baby at
the time? Do we want to prevent pain to the baby? Does circumcision hurt the baby as much as an abortion?

We have outlawed slavery you
know.

Sorry, I don't see how this applies. Is a person with a tatoo a slave? Even if he got it as an adult?

One of few passages of the Bible I know, thanks windword. I suppose the argument for piercings and tatoos is similar except that I know my ear
piecing is now "grown over" and although painful and expensive, one can have a tatoo removed. I believe in the US it is against the law for minors
(under 15) to get a tatoo or a piercing - some guy recently lost custody of his kid because he let the 10 year old get a tatoo.

Genital mutilation however is something all of its own. Can anyone say a parent getting their newborn baby a clitoris ring is a good parent? If you
do think it is ok, there is a lot wrong with you - I think we'd all agree. If you want to do it once you have the ability to think, then it is your
own choice. Frankly piercing babies and putting tatoos on them is purely a selfish act by the parent, in my opinion.

You're quite right. Those people do grow up to have voices and the ability to decide whether to do it. There doesn't seem to be any large Jewish
outrage, so perhaps those who are circumcised come to see it's value as they don't try to stop it.

There doesn't seem to be any outrage, frankly. It is accepted practice. It is an unquestioned (like so many other) religious belief. There is no
outrage because IT IS THE WAY. And really, what value is there in mutilating someone's genitals? NONE.

Well, of course, we only know it's general foundation, but does it matter? Who ever dreamed up eating raw oysters? It's disgusting to me, but
certain people swear by it. Would circumcision be better in your mind if it had been dreamed up by somebody else? Say perhaps a pediatric physician
decided it was, all in all, healthier. Would you accept it then?

I stated in the OP this has to do with the religious practice of genital mutilation. If there are medical resasons why the operation should be done,
then so be it. The fact is, it isn't a medical necessity in almost all cases. Regarding eating oysters, people eat every animal on the earth. You
have a choice there. We also have a choice not to slash our babies genitals. The fact is, you can live a full heathy life without having your
genitals mutilated - those who have made it their cannon, so to speak, are the religious. Their laws say it is the right thing to do and everyone
goes about life all happy they were brutalized/indoctrinated because THEY TOLD ME SO.

Again, what if it was for some other reason than religion, OK then? Besides, you really can't have it both ways. You can't complain that it is
done for religious reasons and also claim that it was done from sadism and cruelty. The parents don't believe it is sadistic and cruel. Why should the
state tell them that this procedure is sadistic and cruel? Additionally, what is the effect on the baby at the time? Do we want to prevent pain to the
baby? Does circumcision hurt the baby as much as an abortion?

Again, if someone's life were in imminent danger than yes, I understand. This next part is the paradox of religion. It is ONLY because of religion
that we could ever imagine the brutal and sadistic practice of genital mutilation as being "normal". The state should tell anyone who is mutialting
someone else it is wrong - because of simple decency. Amazing how anyone can look at it any other way - it is what it is - mutialting a child's
genitals. Of course you want to prevent pain in a baby and what does abortion have to do with any of this?

I dunno how I feel about this. My friend is really against circumcision.
When my son was born, I'd never really thought much about it.
I had him circumsized - not out of religious reasons but because um...well...his dad is...and almost every woman I know prefers a man to be. In
fact, I find men that aren't rather ...no.
My mom was horrified, because no one in her family was, except my uncle, who did it TO HIMSELF in Vietnam, when he was an adult, because he had a
problem that was killing him...and he said the pain was worth it... and my dad he wasn't cut and it was foreign to him and that side of the family
.
So I told her look, it might be the only thing coming between him and a President Clinton sometime.

I was in labor. I wasn't feeling very ladylike. I used more colorful language and I embarrassed all the old ladies in the room, except for my MIL
who agreed with me, which was why she had MY husband circumcised.

Well, my son is old enough now and he's like, I'm glad you did it. My husband's glad he is.

I just don't see it as the horrid 'genital mutilation' that compares with what some muslims do to girls. And you know, if there IS a covenant with
God, well, that's ok too. We're covered. We're pagan, but we got that goin' for us.

The Romans nearly went to war in ancient times over this. I just really don't get it. I just never knew a guy who was that wished he wasn't. I
guess they exist. My son cried maybe 10 minutes and fussed when he urinated for the next day. That was it.

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