Bullcrap, utter and unmitigated bullcrap. Communism is a Dogma and shares a great deal of things in common with religion:

(1)A Holy Text(2)A group of interpreters of said text supported through force(3)Geographically isolated lead interpreters have differing interpretations(schism) which have led to conflict(4)A resistance to evidence, to the point of mocking, jailing, and killing those that attempt to show that evidence(5)Saints, revered dead figures that serve as icons

A lack of belief had jack and crap to do with it.

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

Jdawg70 and ParkingPlaces both concede defeat regadring the discussion on Leviticus.

1. ParkingPlaces says the Bible was right "this one time"

2. Jdawg70 says he is happy to "concede defeat" in regards to this discussion.

Evidently, my point has been proved well enough, backed with evidence, to obtain the defeat of two whywontgodhealamputees.com forum members.

Just to be clear -

I conceded defeat on the one instance of the prophesy game I had proposed, primarily because continuation of the game would have been moot as my mere proposal of the game elicited the discussion of interest (whether or not prophecies can ever be considered valid). That's it. I had no involvement with any discussion relating to Leviticus, and I certainly make no concessions that your theology has any remote relation to reality.

So don't get too excited there.

And really, we aren't on Fark. You can communicate with text; image macros aren't necessary[1].

"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

Jdawg70 and ParkingPlaces both concede defeat regadring the discussion on Leviticus.

1. ParkingPlaces says the Bible was right "this one time"

2. Jdawg70 says he is happy to "concede defeat" in regards to this discussion.

Evidently, my point has been proved well enough, backed with evidence, to obtain the defeat of two whywontgodhealamputees.com forum members.

Just to be clear -

I conceded defeat on the one instance of the prophesy game I had proposed, primarily because continuation of the game would have been moot as my mere proposal of the game elicited the discussion of interest (whether or not prophecies can ever be considered valid). That's it. I had no involvement with any discussion relating to Leviticus, and I certainly make no concessions that your theology has any remote relation to reality.

So don't get too excited there.

And really, we aren't on Fark. You can communicate with text; image macros aren't necessary[1].

Sword, are you throwing around negative darwins because people are asking questions you don't like? WTF is up with that? I think that is abusing the darwin system. When you are a guest in someone else's house, you need to respect their rules. Isn't that the point of the A and E story?

Like the negative you gave jynnan for questioning the treatment of Adam and Eve. She just asked if you thought A and E knew that their misbehavior/disobedience (eating the fruit from the forbidden tree) would result in all the suffering and devastation that happened to the earth. Did they understand what hell and suffering, etc meant? Maybe if they had better information, they would not have eaten the fruit, right?

You did not answer her. Instead you said, "they disobeyed god" and gave her a negative darwin for asking the question! We know they disobeyed god. The question was about their knowledge about the consequences of disobeying god. Like, if a boss tells an employee something and they disobey, is the boss entitled to do whatever they want to the employee, and to also do it their descendants forever?

If you can't or don't want to answer, just say so; don't throw out negative darwins because you don't approve of the question. Makes you look petty and cowardly. Not a good representation of your religious faith.

Ok, great, so I have one victory for my argument on prophecy, and now another on my second argument in favour of the Bible.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Theist 2 - Athiest 0

What exactly is it that you think you won with my concession of defeat in that case?

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"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

Jdawg70 and ParkingPlaces both concede defeat regadring the discussion on Leviticus.

1. ParkingPlaces says the Bible was right "this one time"

2. Jdawg70 says he is happy to "concede defeat" in regards to this discussion.

Evidently, my point has been proved well enough, backed with evidence, to obtain the defeat of two whywontgodhealamputees.com forum members.

Therefore, your objections regarding this are refuted and now closed. Please see previous posts as there are too many people to reply to now.

You do not get to categorically claim that someone else's objections to a statement you made are refuted because one member admitted that the Bible was partially right one time, and another conceded defeat on an unrelated subject.

ParkingPlaces's statement refers only to him, not to other members; Jdawg's was not on the subject of grasshopper legs at all. So, don't you think it might be just a bit premature to declare victory?

By the way, speaking of grasshopper legs...the point of that particular chapter of Leviticus was to state which animals were considered 'clean' (meaning they could be eaten). That specific pair of verses only meant, "don't eat flying insects that walk on all fours unless they have hinged legs for hopping", which says nothing about the total number of legs they have. Moreover, here's what the next two verses say: "22 Of these you may eat any kind of locust, katydid, cricket or grasshopper. 23 But all other flying insects that have four legs you are to regard as unclean."

Not a single species of flying insects has four legs. Not a single species of insect has four legs, for that matter.

So...care to explain this little anomaly?

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Nullus In Verba, aka "Take nobody's word for it!" If you can't show it, then you don't know it.

Jdawg70What exactly is it that you think you won with my concession of defeat in that case?

I won a victory. Get over it. ha ha ha.

DrTesla?

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"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

Jdawg70 and ParkingPlaces both concede defeat regadring the discussion on Leviticus.

1. ParkingPlaces says the Bible was right "this one time"

2. Jdawg70 says he is happy to "concede defeat" in regards to this discussion.

Evidently, my point has been proved well enough, backed with evidence, to obtain the defeat of two whywontgodhealamputees.com forum members.

Therefore, your objections regarding this are refuted and now closed. Please see previous posts as there are too many people to reply to now.

You do not get to categorically claim that someone else's objections to a statement you made are refuted because one member admitted that the Bible was partially right one time, and another conceded defeat on an unrelated subject.

ParkingPlaces's statement refers only to him, not to other members; Jdawg's was not on the subject of grasshopper legs at all. So, don't you think it might be just a bit premature to declare victory?

By the way, speaking of grasshopper legs...the point of that particular chapter of Leviticus was to state which animals were considered 'clean' (meaning they could be eaten). That specific pair of verses only meant, "don't eat flying insects that walk on all fours unless they have hinged legs for hopping", which says nothing about the total number of legs they have. Moreover, here's what the next two verses say: "22 Of these you may eat any kind of locust, katydid, cricket or grasshopper. 23 But all other flying insects that have four legs you are to regard as unclean."

Not a single species of flying insects has four legs. Not a single species of insect has four legs, for that matter.

So...care to explain this little anomaly?

See my other posts... otherwise Id be repeating myself.

« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 05:43:03 PM by SwordOfGod »

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"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible"

You are on the verge of declaring another victory, Sword. You are not here for discussion, that is clear. Like the medieval crusaders, you just want to be able to say you won something in the name of your god. What you won is immaterial. (heh)

Just one last point and then I will leave you alone.

We atheists know that if we do not talk about our views, they will not get discussed because there is no supernatural being in charge. It is up to us. But you believe in a being more powerful and more knowledgeable than you.

In your sig you quote something to the effect that for those who do believe, no proof is needed-- god has given believers all they need to believe without the need for proof. Even if science shows everything in the bible to be wrong, you will still believe. For those who do not believe, no proof is possible--that implies that god has already given up on unbelievers, because he knows what proof we need (cause he is god and knows all) and chooses not to present it (because if he wanted us to believe, we would).

If that is the case, why argue with us about the accuracy of the bible?[1]

Why does it even matter to you what science says about grasshoppers, or anything else for that matter? You would accept the bible over science regardless, right?

You are on the verge of declaring another victory, Sword. You are not here for discussion, that is clear. Like the medieval crusaders, you just want to be able to say you won something in the name of your god. What you won is immaterial. (heh)

Just one last point and then I will leave you alone.

We atheists know that if we do not talk about our views, they will not get discussed because there is no supernatural being in charge. It is up to us. But you believe in a being more powerful and more knowledgeable than you.

In your sig you quote something to the effect that for those who do believe, no proof is needed-- god has given believers all they need to believe without the need for proof. Even if science shows everything in the bible to be wrong, you will still believe. For those who do not believe, no proof is possible--that implies that god has already given up on unbelievers, because he knows what proof we need (cause he is god and knows all) and chooses not to present it (because if he wanted us to believe, we would).

If that is the case, why argue with us about the accuracy of the bible?[1]

Why does it even matter to you what science says about grasshoppers, or anything else for that matter? You would accept the bible over science regardless, right?

Your premise is wrong, so it cant be the case. Even if I changed my premise to match yours (e.g, there is no god), I would still begin with an open mind, looking at the facts for and against. In this case, Biology was on side with the Bible, even ParkingPlaces could see that fact. How one ignores verses in context, shows how subjective thinking cannot accept the reality of God, even if it were true. Lets be honest about it, rather than hide it, thats all Im saying.

I dont need to try and talk anyone into our faith. If someone is really looking for answers objectively, they will find them - and i believe the Adventist mindset captures that model well, as do our adversaries, the Roman Catholic Church. Emotion and opinions do not help you find truth, only facts in light of history can do that. Everything else, is left to a degree of faith. We are not moved by our oponents claims because we have confidence in our ability to be objective of the facts and evidence placed in front of us.

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"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible"

Well done Andy, you just made yourself look even more subjective. You lack evidence, as does Atheism which has scarred your reasoning ability. Your very reasoning is based on a logical fallacy.

Here is the anatomy of a Honey Bee, explained for dummies.

Legs: The bee’s three pairs of legs are all different. Each leg has six segments that make them quite flexible. The bees also have taste receptors on the tips of their legs. The bee uses its forward-most legs to clean its antennae.

The middle legs help with walking and are used to pack loads of pollen (and sometimes propolis) onto the pollen baskets that are part of the hind legs. (Propolis is the sticky resinous substance that the bees collect from the buds of trees and use to seal up cracks in the hive.)

The hind legs are specialized (note, not like the first 4) on the worker bee. They contain special combs and a pollen press, which are used by the worker bee to brush, collect, pack, and carry pollen and propolis back to the hive.

Now you are bringing bees into the mix. You (and your god) are unbelievable.

So now what? Do I have to show you another youtube video to show you that bees generally use all six feet for walking. Okay. I can't believe I have the patience for this.............

Okay, I'm back. I wanted to play fair so I wanted to find a bee that could walk but was also injured (like your grasshopper clip) to show you that bees use all six feet for walking. This bee was hit in the head and he is suffering from a concussion. That is why he is walking in circles:

Challenge: To be consistent, can you please find me a video where a bee is walking with only four of his six feet like you found with a grasshopper?

If you can't, can you please admit that either your god doesn't know how to observe and describe the insects he created or he doesn't exist!

I've got to "bee" honest and tell you I did not look at your source for "bees for dummies". I already know they generally use all six feet for walking unlike your god says in his holy book.

I'll get back to you on your other ridiculous claims later.

P.S. I do think they have a "quote for dummies" tutorial on the main page of this forum.

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"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries, that have afflicted the human race, have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion."~Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason)

Even if I changed my premise to match yours (e.g, there is no god), I would still begin with an open mind, looking at the facts for and against.

Bullshit. You don't have an open-mind now, that's evident by the links you use. All mainly biased links to anything dealing with subjects that agree with you. Sure, you use wiki a lot but even in that point it's mainly biased and either taking out of context, or just using the words that agree with you.

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In this case, Biology was on side with the Bible, even ParkingPlaces could see that fact. How one ignores verses in context, shows how subjective thinking cannot accept the reality of God, even if it were true. Lets be honest about it, rather than hide it, thats all Im saying.

Again: bullshit. You still don't concede the grasshopper subject. You're wrong, it's been shown by many here: you are wrong; you still say you're right: where's the open-mind in that? One with an open-mind would actually come to a conclusion that they may be wrong about something. In your mind, which is always closed: you're always right.

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I dont need to try and talk anyone into our faith.

That's because you can't. And, if by chance you could they'd be as dimwitted as you.

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If someone is really looking for answers objectively, they will find them - and i believe the Adventist mindset captures that model well, as do our adversaries, the Roman Catholic Church. Emotion and opinions do not help you find truth, only facts in light of history can do that. Everything else, is left to a degree of faith. We are not moved by our oponents claims because we have confidence in our ability to be objective of the facts and evidence placed in front of us.

You use the word "objective" as if you actually are: you're not. Ever.

Hardly, as I have now asked you four times to explain the anomaly in Leviticus. Your only response has been to say that you did so elsewhere in the topic, to declare 'victory' because one person stated that the bible was partially right, and to attempt to arbitrarily close the discussion because of that. That doesn't fly. All you are doing is showing yourself to be a very petty, non-objective person.

Post either the argument you made or a link to it.

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Nullus In Verba, aka "Take nobody's word for it!" If you can't show it, then you don't know it.

You are on the verge of declaring another victory, Sword. You are not here for discussion, that is clear. Like the medieval crusaders, you just want to be able to say you won something in the name of your god. What you won is immaterial. (heh)

Just one last point and then I will leave you alone.

We atheists know that if we do not talk about our views, they will not get discussed because there is no supernatural being in charge. It is up to us. But you believe in a being more powerful and more knowledgeable than you.

In your sig you quote something to the effect that for those who do believe, no proof is needed-- god has given believers all they need to believe without the need for proof. Even if science shows everything in the bible to be wrong, you will still believe. For those who do not believe, no proof is possible--that implies that god has already given up on unbelievers, because he knows what proof we need (cause he is god and knows all) and chooses not to present it (because if he wanted us to believe, we would).

If that is the case, why argue with us about the accuracy of the bible?[1]

Why does it even matter to you what science says about grasshoppers, or anything else for that matter? You would accept the bible over science regardless, right?

Your premise is wrong, so it cant be the case. Even if I changed my premise to match yours (e.g, there is no god), I would still begin with an open mind, looking at the facts for and against. In this case, Biology was on side with the Bible, even ParkingPlaces could see that fact. How one ignores verses in context, shows how subjective thinking cannot accept the reality of God, even if it were true. Lets be honest about it, rather than hide it, thats all Im saying.

I dont need to try and talk anyone into our faith. If someone is really looking for answers objectively, they will find them - and i believe the Adventist mindset captures that model well, as do our adversaries, the Roman Catholic Church. Emotion and opinions do not help you find truth, only facts in light of history can do that. Everything else, is left to a degree of faith. We are not moved by our oponents claims because we have confidence in our ability to be objective of the facts and evidence placed in front of us.

You had to go there.

Objective religion? Gravitation is objective. Religion is about as subjective as you can get. That is why most people are never convinced of another religious group's beliefs through rational argument. Could a Hindu or Muslim convince you that Hinduism or Islam was correct? I doubt it.

If there was an objective religion, there would not be a billion Hindus, a billion Muslims, two billion assorted Christians, and two billion "none of the above" all disagreeing with one another and all thinking that they have it right. Add in the fact that most people practice the religion of their parents, or ethnic group and/or geographical region, and religious "choice" looks a lot like a person's favorite food "choice" and native language "choice"-- pretty far from objective.[2]

If there was an objective religion, with logical arguments and facts that everyone would agree on regardless of cultural background, wouldn't that be the only one? There would not be any need for any explanations other than the objective one. We don't have a thousand competing equally compelling theories of gravitation, because basic physics is made up of observable, demonstrable, proveable facts. That is what objective means-- like basic arithmetic, everyone who looks at the same information will come to similar conclusions.

Not so with religion, or there would be only one, or at most a handful. Not hundreds or thousands, each emerging out of a specific historical context, with its own specific prophets and sacred works, and individualized to specific cultures. Somehow, that does not seem to be the way a supernatural being would work, unless he was trying to trick us!

If you are in the SDA faith, chances are pretty good you are either from the US-- or another country like Australia, where English is the main language and the Protestant version of Christianity is predominant. Not as many SDA members from Senegal, China, Japan, India or Iran for some reason. Chances are also good that sheep's brain sandwiches with garlic mayo (found in shopping mall food courts in Muslim countries) are not your favorite food.

Challenge: To be consistent, can you please find me a video where a bee is walking with only four of his six feet like you found with a grasshopper?

Videos without scientific interpretation of the biological facts are inadmissible as evidence, since any media can be interpreted subjectively, as I proved with the grasshopper video I produced, showing the grasshopper walking on 4 legs, with its hind legs in place. A video even confused nam so much, that he actually started believing the observers had deliberately"injured the grasshopper and then made the video" !!! (post 415). Now thats what I call ridiculous, but more accurately, it is subjective opinions which have no basis for scientific fact.

The only "evidence" which can be truly produced, is scientific and biblical texts, which clearly say in black and white what they are primarily used for.

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If you can't, can you please admit that either your god doesn't know how to observe and describe the insects he created or he doesn't exist!

What sort of logic is that? And that's how atheists actually come to the knowledge of conclusive facts? My opinions would not matter to you until they fitted your subjective views and reasoning ability.

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I've got to "bee" honest and tell you I did not look at your source for "bees for dummies". I already know they generally use all six feet for walking unlike your god says in his holy book.

The text doesn't say what you think you know about bees. If you can't be objective enough to look at scientific sources and apply logic and reason from a non-biased premise, then, you will not learn anything new. The fact you wont even look at the source, reminds me of when I speak to Muslims about their fake religion coming from the moon god cult. They know its true, so they avoid any sources which prove it to be correct. Ha! Biblical theology is rock solid and smashes all its critics. Weak atheists...

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I'll get back to you on your other ridiculous claims later.

If you cant even read the sources Ive supplied, then whats the point talking to you. You obviously have no intention of a 2 way discussion as should be intended. You also just regurgitate a load of waffle like some of the others do here.

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P.S. I do think they have a "quote for dummies" tutorial on the main page of this forum.

Well, at least I can admit to the things I need to read and study. I havent been here long, so be patient.. the force is with me Obi-Wan

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"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible"

You know what? I don't think anyone here has the ability to change your mind SwordOfGod. And if you wish to declare that as some kind of victory, be my guest. Why not take the opportunity to share this victorious experience of yours with others? Friends, family, fellow members of the Seventh-Day Adventists Church? Encourage them to pop on this forum and read through this entire thread, or at the very least, starting from where you first engaged in this thread.

Just make damn sure you are clear to them that you are the poster 'SwordOfGod'. They may find it enlightening.

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"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

It is not the fault of religion, but the fault of man. Man is subjectively choosing his religion based on feelings or opinions. He only objectively chooses it when it is based on facts.

i.e. The Bible says keep the sabbath. So objectively I will accept it, based on the historical evidence if appropiate, and the Bible verse in addition to it. To be objective in this way, is to keep the day the Bible (internal evidence) and history (external evidence) say is correct, even though others keep sunday, which has no scriptural support whatsoever.

I am being subjective in choosing my religion when I say, the Bible says keep the Sabbath, but because the majority of the church keep sunday, and because I dont want to give up playing football at 10am every saturday with my friends, I keep sunday because its more convenient to do so, even though there is no command anywhere in the Bible to keep sunday holy. Then I will reinterpet scripture, where it says we are to keep the commandments of God, to mean regarding the sabbath day "any day I feel like to keep, as long as its just one day". When someone places their views and desires above the bible, you get subjective interpretation. The Bible says what it says, but it must be taken in context with the whole canon.

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"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible"

You know what? I don't think anyone here has the ability to change your mind SwordOfGod. And if you wish to declare that as some kind of victory, be my guest. Why not take the opportunity to share this victorious experience of yours with others? Friends, family, fellow members of the Seventh-Day Adventists Church? Encourage them to pop on this forum and read through this entire thread, or at the very least, starting from where you first engaged in this thread.

Just make damn sure you are clear to them that you are the poster 'SwordOfGod'. They may find it enlightening.

Sure, it would be my pleasure.

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"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible"