How long do you wait at the beginning of the fight before starting to do damage or do you start slowly? Even with a DK and a Rogue I easily pull aggro and I can't push out my burst damage. The aggro reduce talent is ridiculous.

Honestly, really depends; I for example usually won't do anything besides auto-attack until the tank has a clear 200k lead in threat according to Omen, and even then I find myself pushing Cower quite a bit until he has Vengeance well up and running. Nothing you can really do, it's pretty much dependent on the tank for them to grab up aggro, all you can do is monitor how much you grab...obviously make sure the rogue is actually using tricks (believe it or not quite a few don't), maybe have any hunters fire a few MDs as well, but beyond that there's not much else besides the tank in question gearing for threat (which isn't always the best ideal when mitigation and survivability help a lot more in learning new stuff initially) and they're pretty much tied to waiting till Vengeance kicks in.

As the boss is running up, except for on Staghelm, I will (From Cat Form - Very Important) cast Thorns on the Main Tank. I will then shift back into Cat Form and throw out a Faerie Fire (Feral). After it's 6 sec CD is up, I will then Feral Charge in and begin my rotation:

On Staghelm, because we have a misdirect into the boss and we are stacked in the center of the platform, I start from stealth. When the boss gets to me, I take the 10 secs I use for Faerie Fire and Thorns on normal pulls and find my position underneath his claw so that I can shred. With Ravage having a Positional Requirement, it helps. Plus it gives me 2 combos, which I will use for Savage Roar, then Faerie Fire(Feral) and begin my rotation.

It all comes down to knowing your situation. Any good dps will have initial aggro problems if you have 0-1 MD/Tricks. If you can get 2 or more you should never have aggro issues barring weird mechanics that buff your dps or nerf the tank's. You also need to know your tank. You can get a feel pretty quick for what he/she is capable of. You also need to be prepared for the perfect storm of you getting lucky and the tank getting unlucky. Cower isn't a magic bullet like vanish, but it can really help you out. The key is to hit cower and stop attacking. Stopping for a couple seconds is going to be more dps in the long run than going balls to the wall, pulling, and dieing.

There is no set time you need to wait for. Every raid set up is different. Remember that with vengeance, the tanks threat will only get better over time. Sit out as long as you need to at the beginning so you can go all out later.

Speaking from a tank's perspective (something I occasionally do) - the tank needs to get hit to build up Vengeance. If someone pulls off before the tank has Vengeance built up it is extremely difficult to get the mob back. Tank threat scales up very fast *when* the tank is being attacked.

Leafkiller wrote:Speaking from a tank's perspective (something I occasionally do) - the tank needs to get hit to build up Vengeance. If someone pulls off before the tank has Vengeance built up it is extremely difficult to get the mob back. Tank threat scales up very fast *when* the tank is being attacked.

Troof. This is why, even with tricks and md threat not being permanent, they are awesome. It helps the tank get past the 30 sec or so hump till they start stacking up vengeance. If you still have troubles try to cower after your ravage (for me usually after rip in the opener), and hit it once or twice after that. Remember that cower is 10% of total threat so the later you do it, the more threat it dumps off.