There is no name police to say who can or can not call themselves christian

(That didn't stop Lds "prophet" Gordon B. Hinckley from going on the Larry King show in the late 1990s and attempting to "police" the definition of "Mormon" -- saying there wasn't such a thing as a "fundamentalist Mormon..." For some reason, we ne'er see the advocates of your position lecture the Mormons for attempting to establish an exclusive definition of the word "Mormon..." Why not?)

And if you think that anyone qualifies as "Christian," then "nice" -- as in a /sarc "nice" -- to know that you think polygamist fundamentalist, child-raping Mormons are "Christian," too, eh?

Of course, if we totally cater to your seeming open-ended anything-goes indicator of what is a "Christian," no wonder people slide down a religious Bahai-like pathway where they run everything together about God and begin to conclude things like:

You are welcome...it’s an honest comment of my experiences here in Fontana, CA yesterday where we are visiting preparing for one of our duaghter’s wedding in San Diego this evening...but also of my experiences over 42 years in Texas, Utah, Ohio, Other places in California, in Montana,and in Idaho (our home). Not to mention abroad on trips.

103
posted on 04/09/2012 9:47:50 AM PDT
by Jeff Head
(Freedom is not free, never has been, never will be (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))

Svcw, Jesus Chist is mentioned in every LDS sacrament meeting, which is the main congregational meeting where the sacrament is taken and blessed. The blessing prayers are the same in every Ward, and are all about Jesus Christ, mentioning Him by name and taking the bread and water in remembrance of the sacrifice of His body and blood for our salvation. Happens in every sacrament meeting, followed by mini-sermons given by members who have been called to do so with a week or so preparation.

There are opening songs, a pre-sacrament song (which is always about Christ) and then a closing song.

Most of the talks are Christ centered, but not all...they may be about family life, or morality, or other teachings of Christ or his Apostles.

I have experienced this in Wards all over the country and have myself been in Bishoprics twice, have been priesthood quorum leaders, Sunday school teachers, etc., etc. Believe me, I know that they are actually “LDS” Wards.

104
posted on 04/09/2012 9:56:43 AM PDT
by Jeff Head
(Freedom is not free, never has been, never will be (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))

The main service in sacrament meetings, which occurs at the start of the meeting is the sacrament administration itself...the meeting then goes on for another 50 minutes to an hour. That is what I was referring to. And yes, it was great.

106
posted on 04/09/2012 10:02:37 AM PDT
by Jeff Head
(Freedom is not free, never has been, never will be (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))

What? Are there no real "issues" for you to be drawn to that you have to create straw men & go after mythical FREEPER defenders of "colored eggs" & "rabbits?" Really, Ravenwolf???

...all of the things that were put on by the church of Constantine in order to get the pagans to join the Christian Church, Christmass, Easter, Halloween. Pagan, pagan, pagan

Let's separate these three out...Halloween -- or All Saints' Day/eve...Easter -- referenced by early church as "Pascha" -- or Passover...and Christmas.

***************

Let's start with Halloween:

Per this source, http://www.fisheaters.com/customstimeafterpentecost12aa.html there was some recognition of martyrs during the 4th century...but whatever it was, it occurred on May 13...not Oct. 31-Nov. 1. Its conversion into a feast for not just the martyrs, but "ALL the saints" didn't occur til 741...and "All Saints" as its OWN DAY wasn't set aside until 1048!!! [Hmm...your rather convenient whipping boy, Constantine, in your "scholarly" opinion, must have lived across 4-7 centuries, eh?]

Per this same source: "1 November in 844 when Pope Gregory III consecrated a chapel in St. Peter's Basilica to All Saints (so much for the theory that the day was fixed on 1 November because of a bunch of Irish pagans had harvest festivals at that time). All Souls' has its origins in A.D. 1048 when the Bishop of Cluny decreed that the Benedictines of Cluny pray for the souls in Purgatory on this day. The practice spread until Pope Sylvester II recommended it for the entire Latin Church. The Vigil of, or evening before, All Hallows' ("Hallows' Eve," or "Hallowe'en") came, in Irish popular piety, to be a day of remembering the dead who are neither in Purgatory or Heaven, but are damned, and these customs spread to many parts of the world. Thus we have the popular focus of Hallowe'en as the reality of Hell, hence its scary character and focus on evil and how to avoid it, the sad fate of the souls of the damned, etc."

So if you want to blame the bishop of Cluny for whatever he elected to do in setting aside an "All Saints Day" in 1048, go for it...but at least get your historical facts straight before you start blaming Constantine for something done in the 11th century!!!

Also worth mentioning per this source (http://www.halloween-history.org/), "Around 2,000 years ago, the Celts, who lived in what is now the United Kingdom, Ireland, and northern France, had a festival commemorating the end of the year. Their New Year was November 1, and this festival was called Samhain, pronounced sow-en."

Now why is that relavent? Per this source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druidism), obviously the Celtic Druids weren't around when the 11th century church was designating Nov. 1 "all saints day": "Very little is known about the ancient druids. They left no written accounts about themselves and the only evidence is a few descriptions left by Greek, Roman and various scattered authors and artists, also stories created by later medieval Irish writers."

In Exodus we find that Passover -- "Pascha" -- is to be celebrated forever: 14 This is a day you are to commemorate; for the generations to come you shall celebrate it as a festival to the LORDa lasting ordinance." (Ex. 12:14)

So, what was the church celebrating well before Constantine came along in the 4th century?

Passover -- or Pascha. Theophilus tells us that the Caesareans were celebrating Passover "the same day" as the Alexandrians (180 A.D.). Commodianus mentioned in 240 A.D. that Pascha was "that blessed day of ours."

From NorthernCrunchyCon, post #20: Pascha and Easter are the same holy day. Thats why Good Friday, Holy Saturday and Easter Sunday are known collectively among liturgical Christian churches as the Paschal Tridiuum. Heres a brief history on the topic from OrthoWiki: http://orthodoxwiki.org/Pascha

Certainly, by the time of the Apostolic Constitutions (written well before 390, but compiled then), they were saying that "the resurrection of our Lord" shouldn't be celebrated "on any other day than a Sunday."

Whatever you want to call it -- Pascha, "resurrection day" or Easter, the celebration of the blood of the Paschal Lamb & His resurrection were there before pagan linkages can be attached.

**************

Christmas (and my comments here extend to "Easter" as a title as well)

You claim, Ravenwolf, that "the things that were put on the church were...pagan, pagan, pagan."

Why stop there?

Most of the days of the week are named after various pagan gods. Many of the month names are named after various pagan gods.

That's all been "put on" society and on our daily calendars, have they not been?

Thursday evolved from the Germanic pagan god, Thor? So, tell us, Ravenwolf unless you studiously avoid using the term Thursday -- or Thor's day -- why do you devote such a day to such a pagan, pagan, pagan god?

I mean, don't we worship a jealous God? Is He not provoked by the way you honor and acknowledge and recognize the false god, Thor? (Or does He look the other way and doesn't care?)

I mean, it can't possibly be that you would hypocritically apply your argument to Christmas & Easter yet recognize Thor's day, eh?

Yes? No? You recognize Thor's day, then? If so, my, my, my: How inconsistent, how two-faced, how Pharisaical, how 'teacher-of-the-law' of you, how hypocritical of you, then, Ravenwolf!

As for the rest of the days & months: * Monday came from Germanic mythology where the "moon god" = Mani. * Tuesday comes from Norse mythology re: its one-handed god, Tiw. ,br>* Wednesday comes from the Germanic god Wodan. * Friday comes from the Anglo-Saxon goddess Frige. * Saturday comes from the Roman god Saturn (Anglo-Saxon rendering was Sæturnesdæg) * January - Janus, Roman god of the beginning/doorway * March - Mars, Roman god of war * April - unknown, potentially Aphrodite, Greek goddess of love * May - Maia, Greek goddess of fertility * June - juno, Roman goddess of protection

So...tell us, Ravenwolf...how you've managed to avoid offending or provoking our Jealous God by avoiding days and months and their names that honor and acknowledge these various pagan gods.

We're all interested in knowing what system you came up with steadfastly (and legalistically, if I might add) avoid such a thing.

And if you can't, may I suggest in the future that you put away such accusations of hypocrisy...because you're as inconsistent, then, as all get-out!

Oh...and don't stop with these calendar days & months, either.

If you have EVER acknowledged April Fool's Day in any way (April 1), do you realize that this day may be a relic of the Roman Cerealia  held in honor of Ceres (goddess of agriculture).

And do we not get our very word "cereal" from this goddess? I suppose you legalistically refrain from using the word "cereal" -- or even eating of cereal, eh Ravenwolf?

And tell us, Ravenwolf, how you steadfastly refuse to EVER reference a med prescription as "Rx"...given that the "R" in the symbol "Rx" used by Pharmacists for centuries includes the slant across the "R's leg" = the sign of the Roman god, Jupiter, patron of medicine.

Ok, Jeff.
You are at least consistent in your explanation of “ward” activities, usually the refrain is “what I have experienced is ..... and what you have experienced in not the norm”.
I get it.
I am telling you what my experiences have been. There are former mormons on FR who have told you what their experiences are. There are those linking to articles written by former mormons of their experiences at Easter or at Christmas time - all of which you continually seem to discount.
I have been to “ward” meetings, women relief society meetings, high school meetings, college age meetings at Christmas time, on Easter Sunday as well as other none celebratory days and not one word is mentioned of Jesus, not even during the “sacrament”.
If you chose not to beleive me when I relate my experiences, or those of others about their experience with mormonism or the links to many sites dedicated to exposing the experiences of former mormons, there is nothing I can do about it, it is your choice.

108
posted on 04/09/2012 10:09:34 AM PDT
by svcw
(If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)

*The following is a letter from Elder Lance B. Wickman, General Counsel of the Church to publishers of major newspapers, TV stations and magazines. It was sent out on Tuesday, June 24, 2008.

Recent events have focused the media spotlight on a polygamous sect near San Angelo, Texas, calling itself the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. As you probably know, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has absolutely no affiliation with this polygamous sect. Decades ago, the founders of that sect rejected the doctrines of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, were excommunicated, and then started their own religion. To the best of our knowledge, no one at the Texas compound has ever been a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Unfortunately, however, some of the media coverage of the recent events in Texas has caused members of the public to confuse the doctrines and members of that group and our church. We have received numerous inquiries from confused members of the public who, by listening to less than careful media reports, have come to a grave misunderstanding about our respective doctrines and faith. Based on these media reports many have erroneously concluded that there is some affiliation between the two  or even worse, that they are one and the same.

Over the years, in a careful effort to distinguish itself, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has gone to significant lengths to protect its rights in the name of the church and related matters. Specifically, we have obtained registrations for the name The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Mormon, Book of Mormon and related trade and service marks from the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office and corresponding agencies in a significant number of foreign countries.

We are confident that you are committed to avoiding misleading statements that cause unwarranted confusion and that may disparage or infringe the intellectual property rights discussed above. Accordingly, we respectfully request the following:

As reflected in the AP Style Guide, we ask that you and your organization refrain from referring to members of that polygamous sect as fundamentalist Mormons or fundamentalist members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

We ask that, when reporting about this Texas-based polygamous sect or any other polygamous group, you avoid either explicitly or implicitly any inference that these groups are affiliated with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

On those occasions when it may be necessary in your reporting to refer to the historical practice of plural marriage in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, that you make very clear that the Church does not condone the practice of polygamy and that it has been forbidden in the Church for over one hundred years. Moreover, we absolutely condemn arranged or forced marriages of underage girls to anyone under any circumstances.

Stated simply, we would like to be known and recognized for whom we are and what we believe, and not be inaccurately associated with beliefs and practices that we condemn in the strongest terms. We would be grateful if you could circulate or copy this letter to your editorial staff and to your legal counsel.

We thank you for your consideration of these important matters.

Sincerely,

Lance B. Wickman

General Counsel

115
posted on 04/09/2012 11:48:13 AM PDT
by Elsie
(Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)

Svcw, Jesus Chist is mentioned in every LDS sacrament meeting, which is the main congregational meeting where the sacrament is taken and blessed. The blessing prayers are the same in every Ward, and are all about Jesus Christ, mentioning Him by name and taking the bread and water in remembrance of the sacrifice of His body and blood for our salvation. Happens in every sacrament meeting, followed by mini-sermons given by members who have been called to do so with a week or so preparation.

Interesting...

118
posted on 04/09/2012 11:52:16 AM PDT
by Elsie
(Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)

"on Easter Sunday as well as other none celebratory days and not one word is mentioned of Jesus, not even during the sacrament."

Sacrament prayers

O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee, in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this water to the souls of all those who drink of it, that they may do it in remembrance of the blood of thy Son, which was shed for them; that they may witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they do always remember him, that they may have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.

O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this bread to the souls of all those who partake of it; that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son, and witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember him, and keep his commandments which he hath given them, that they may always have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.

This is the prayer I heard at my Sacrament meeting. I would think this same prayer is used at other LDS meeting.

Technically, you are correct. However, anyone who claims to be a Christian but doesn't attend regular worship services and relish spending time with other Christians needs to carefully examine him or herself in light of God's Word. It is not some legalistic requirement but the proper response of the joyful heart of one who is truly saved by the blood of Jesus Christ. It's not that we have to attend but that we really want to attend because God has replaced our hearts of stone with a heart of flesh.

Obviously, I'm not God* but every person who I have heard make such a statement about being a Christian but not needing to attend church has provided lots of other reasons to question their profession.

* Since this is a Mormon thread, let me point that I will never become a god nor will any other human being.

124
posted on 04/09/2012 12:18:50 PM PDT
by CommerceComet
(If Mitt can leave the GOP to protest Reagan, why can't I do the same in protest of Romney?)

The only thing you are doing is to make it sound as though you are some kind of scholar, and you probably are and that is what the problem is with this whole thing of religion.

I was referring to the Catholic Church, i thought such a Great scholar as you would be smart enough to figure that out for your self, well i will admit that i can be wrong.

I did not say anything about any freeper saying anything about colored eggs or any other thing about freepers. but we know that is what happens on this easter thing, and that is fine if that is what you want to do.

It appears to me that the passover was for the Jews as it was not the gentiles who came out of captivity, as for the rest of it you are not as far as i can see getting any information from the word of God but just blowing the same wind as the so called scholars before you did who has to live religion because that is all it was to them.

The early Church did not pratice and did not teach the pratice of Christmas, Easter, or Halloween and there is no mention of changing the Sabbath to Sunbbath or any thing like that.

Gee you sure have done a lot of reading but you should read the Bible at least once in a while so you will know the truth and the truth will set you Free.

As far as The all saints day you said your self it was started in 1048 during the holy roman empire (that was started by Constantine.) my words

Again you said that the passover was started in 180 so there is nothing Biblical about either one of them.

And by the way here is the comment from you to another freeper that i was commenting on.

(Oh, thats right...its just another workin day for ya, given that the Sunday isnt the Sabbath to you & Resurrection Sunday/Easter must be almost totally meaningless 2U, eh?)The point is that you was criticizing some one because they may not believe Sunday is the sabbath and it is not the Sabbath, if you would read the Bible instead of some ones literature you would know that changing the Sabbath from the seventh day of the week to the first day of the week would be just like changing the results of Custers last stand, its a done deal, it can not be changed.

I just barely know the meaning of paganism and when the Churches pratice or teaches something that the early Church did not teach i just use the word pagan as a by word, religion would have the same meaning.

You indicated that all of the days of the week was named after a pagan God, well was it that way or did they just name the pagan gods to fit the names of the days of the week?

I don,t know who in the world would have gone to all of that trouble because i do not read all of the pagan crap myself as i just don,t care about religion.

125
posted on 04/09/2012 12:26:10 PM PDT
by ravenwolf
(reIf you believe that Nero was the anti-Christ, and among othJust a bit of the long list of proofsre)

Notice is Psalm 82, the theme is righteous judgement. Verses 1, 2, and 3 use either the words judge or justice and verse describes (without using those words) an act of judging. Verses 5-7 are God's lament that his human judges (unfortunately, translated as "gods" in the KJV) have fallen short and will suffer the consequences with verse 8 praising God as the rightful head and judge of the entire earth.

The word "elohim" which is translated here as "gods" was used of human judges in Exodus (21:6 and 22:8,9). If you read Psalm 82 with idea of human judges the whole passage makes perfect sense. Your interpretation makes no contextual sense. Particularly, when combined with other explicit texts where God says there are no other gods. ("Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me." Isaiah 43:10 or "Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none." Isaiah 44:8).

130
posted on 04/09/2012 1:05:00 PM PDT
by CommerceComet
(If Mitt can leave the GOP to protest Reagan, why can't I do the same in protest of Romney?)

Book of Life is Judaism 101...you might google it. As I’ve said, your comparative religions knowledge is very limited...it might behoove you to learn a little bit about the bazillion other religions of the world.

It is an easter thread but more specifically it is a mormon bashing thread expressly bashing mormons for not celebrating easter vigorously enough. I find such a thread pathetic given that there are numerous other christian religions which do not celebrate easter at all. Worse than patheic...I find it despicable that an ardent easter practitioner would choose easter sunday to NOT rejoice in the celebration of easter, but instead use his/her self proclaimed self righteous superiority to bash someone else’s style of easter celebration. Such people are not righteous or pious and are not christian. In short hey disgust me. Unfortunately for me, such people are likely to become increasing disgusting the closer romney gets to winning. I would advise these people to take a good long hard look at their own christianity before denouncing others as un-christian. Especially on easter sunday. You people may think you are ONLY insulting mormons with this and, that it is OK to do so because of your hatred for romney, but you are sadly mistaken. You are insulting many other kinds of christianity with your stupidity and you are making fools of yourselves in the process.

Worse than patheic...I find it despicable that an ardent easter practitioner would choose easter sunday to NOT rejoice in the celebration of easter, but instead use his/her self proclaimed self righteous superiority to bash someone elses style of easter celebration. Such people are not righteous or pious and are not christian. In short hey disgust me. Unfortunately for me, such people are likely to become increasing disgusting the closer romney gets to winning. I would advise these people to take a good long hard look at their own christianity before denouncing others as un-christian. Especially on easter sunday. You people may think you are ONLY insulting mormons with this and, that it is OK to do so because of your hatred for romney, but you are sadly mistaken. You are insulting many other kinds of christianity with your stupidity and you are making fools of yourselves in the process.

Judge much?

Turtlepower is absolutely right about the hypocrisy. It is evident to everyone else other than you I guessing.

Sorry but I guess we forgot that Easter is the day that we all stand around and sing "Kumbaya." Maybe next Easter, FR can make you the religion forum moderator to keep us all in line.

135
posted on 04/09/2012 6:00:32 PM PDT
by CommerceComet
(If Mitt can leave the GOP to protest Reagan, why can't I do the same in protest of Romney?)

Sorry, svcw, every sacrament prayer in every ward is the same. If you listened to those prayers alone you would have heard His name praised and reverenced.

“Oh God, the Eternal Father, we ask Thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this bread to the souls of all of those who partake of it, that they may do it in remembrance of the body of thy Son, that they may witness unto Thee, oh God the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember Him, and keep His commandments which He has given them, that they may always have His spirit to be with them, Amen.”

The prayer for the water is very similar. So either you were not listening to those prayers, have forgotten about them, or you yourself were not attending LDS wards because those prayers are offered, both of them in every sacrement meeting, every week in every LDS ward and branch.

136
posted on 04/09/2012 11:48:47 PM PDT
by Jeff Head
(Freedom is not free, never has been, never will be (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))

Typical and the norm in your world, svcw, but not typical or the norm for millions of LDS and investigators of the church who attend those meetings each week.

As I said, those prayers are the reason we call them sacrement meetings and they are said each week, using the same wording in scores of languages and in over ten thousand ward and branch buildings each week.

I urge anyone who wonders or who wants to verify this to simply attend one Sacrement meeting of a Church Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints at a meeting house of your choosing anywhere in the world. Look them up in the phone book or online, and you need not attend the whole meeting, the sacrement is offered within 20 minutes or so of the start of the meeting.

140
posted on 04/10/2012 7:37:43 AM PDT
by Jeff Head
(Freedom is not free, never has been, never will be (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))

Disclaimer:
Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual
posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its
management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the
exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.