He's not good my man. The data is right there. I wish he was - or will be, but facts do not back that up for us currently.

Except the facts are based on Bargs playing in an offensive system centred around Chris Bosh and THREE ball distributors. Whenever he caught the ball it was either because he was open or because a set play was being run for him. You can't use these stats and say "Fact: Bargnani is a bad passer". That's not fact, that's an opinion based on stats. You can only use these stats and say "Fact: Last season Bargnani did not assisst on many of his team's baskets". That's the only fact you have right now.

Except the facts are based on Bargs playing in an offensive system centred around Chris Bosh and THREE ball distributors. Whenever he caught the ball it was either because he was open or because a set play was being run for him. You can't use these stats and say "Fact: Bargnani is a bad passer". That's not fact, that's an opinion based on stats. You can only use these stats and say "Fact: Last season Bargnani did not assisst on many of his team's baskets". That's the only fact you have right now.

Far enough. Now show to me why Bargnani is a good passer. That was the original comment. Even two YouTube videos would suffice. When you have that many touches
(Bargnani ranked 30th out of 124 in terms of usage - so that excuse for him seems to fall on his face) you should occasionally pass the ball.

Now show to me why Bargnani is a good passer. That was the original comment.

I can't because we don't know that. The OP was full of false statements on its own. But in my opinion, given what I saw in the recent exhibition game and some memories from past seasons, I think Bargnani's passing and courtvision is much better than what we saw last season. It's an opinion I have, no facts to back it up. I can't wait for the season to start to see what he can do when he's the #1 offensive threat on the court.

I can't because we don't know that. The OP was full of false statements on its own. But in my opinion, given what I saw in the recent exhibition game and some memories from past seasons, I think Bargnani's passing and courtvision is much better than what we saw last season. It's an opinion I have, no facts to back it up. I can't wait for the season to start to see what he can do when he's the #1 offensive threat on the court.

Cool. I still will debate the original comment from Multipaul "One thing that was evident to everyone during last year's campaign was that Bargs is a great passer"

I would at least argue he should have said "One thing that was evident to MOST everyone during last year's campaign was that Bargs is a NOT YET A great passer"

Liston, your statistical accumen is impressive. what i meant was that your equation has to factor in total number of 'touches' as an element of your equation. as another poster astutely recognized, our previous offensive strategem was built around bosh as either first option, or magnet for double teams allowing a pss out to an open man. it is almost an apples to oranges comparison with bosh based on their role definitions.

another aspect which must be considered cannot necessarily be crunched statistically, and that is pass timing and game awareness. as a raps fan from day one, i cannot count the number of times i was left scratching my head when bosh would hold the ball in crucial in game situations, stagnating the offense and breaking the set play. bargs seems very willing to make the extra pass that will allow for a more effective offensive strike. his height and court vision don't hurt either.

so my point is that bargs' pass first mentality and physical prowess at passing will undoubtedly lead to more opportunities for his teammates. i dont see how this can be seen as untrue.

... your equation has to factor in total number of 'touches' as an element of your equation... it is almost an apples to oranges comparison with bosh based on their role definitions.

Usage does somewhat: Usg% - Usage Percentage (available since the 1977-78 season in the NBA); the formula is 100 * ((FGA + 0.44 * FTA + TOV) * (Tm MP / 5)) / (MP * (Tm FGA + 0.44 * Tm FTA + Tm TOV)). Usage percentage is an estimate of the percentage of team plays used by a player while he was on the floor.

On the second part - this is why I sampled 135 players. Surely they are not all the first option and certainly several (e.g. Brad Miller, Troy Murphy, etc) can be compared to Andrea Bargnani.

Multipaul wrote:

another aspect which must be considered cannot necessarily be crunched statistically, and that is pass timing and game awareness. as a raps fan from day one, i cannot count the number of times i was left scratching my head when bosh would hold the ball in crucial in game situations, stagnating the offense and breaking the set play.

I agree.

Multipaul wrote:

so my point is that bargs' pass first mentality and physical prowess at passing will undoubtedly lead to more opportunities for his teammates. i dont see how this can be seen as untrue.

I strongly disagree with Bargnani having a "pass first" mentality and personnel in the organization agree with that point. I would suggest my previous point on Field Goal Attempts vs Assists validates my view, but its still only one's opinion. If he were pass first, he would have more assists. But its clear he fires it up when he gets the ball more often than the majority of bigs.

One thing that was evident to everyone during last year's campaign was that Bargs is a great passer, and was willing to feed other guys selflessly

Really? Because I can't agree with this statement at all, and his assist numbers bear it out. He's averaged 0.8, 1.1, 1.2, and 1.2 in the last four years. I know these numbers aren't normalized to whatever, but they're very self-evident. Bargnani might make a nice zip-pass or a quick hi-lo once in a while, but he is not a "great passer", not even close. People talk about his defensive instincts lacking, I think the same can be said for his passing. This isn't a Bargnani vs. Bosh debate either, because I think Bosh was a bad passer as well.

Certainly, Bargnani hasn't shown to be a guy you can dump the ball to in the post with his back to the basket, or in a face-up at the elbow and expect to have many things happen. The likeliest case in either situation is a shot-attempt. Maybe that will change with a more dynamic offense, but he's still got to prove that he can read defenses other than just on occasion.

To those who say this is just a friendly, what you see is what you get. This is a team that did not make Eurobasket last year, despite being the favourite in the qualifying tournament. I see zero to get excited about from both of these players. Maybe Ed Davis will play more minutes at the four than Bargnani.

the team did not make Eurobasket last year, but they were without Bargs, Beli and Gallinari, our three best players...

I'm not saying the main problem is that this is a friendly, the problem is that is July, so they are obviously out of shape, the aim is to get the players in shape for the real qualifying round in late august, and then for the training camp, otherwise they will get very tired midway during the season

Usage does somewhat: Usg% - Usage Percentage (available since the 1977-78 season in the NBA); the formula is 100 * ((FGA + 0.44 * FTA + TOV) * (Tm MP / 5)) / (MP * (Tm FGA + 0.44 * Tm FTA + Tm TOV)). Usage percentage is an estimate of the percentage of team plays used by a player while he was on the floor.

That is pretty impressive analysis.

I thought my "pass first" comment might have generated some interest. I guess my intention was to say "pass first in comparison to our former PF". I do recall repeated sequences of Bargs hoisting off balance 3's and J's while looking off some other players, which sucked.

Like Arsenalist said, lots can change this year. I think if we go back to the swing-swing passing game we employed during our divisional championship campaign, we could re-establish some of the team's luster which was crippled in the pass due to a certain tranny we had at PF who would hold the ball like he was charging up a hadouken.

here's a chat with David Thorpe, an analyst for ESPN.com who is the executive director of Florida's The Pro Training Center. Covering summer league daily, Thorpe took some time out to discuss the Raptors squad, the upside of Ed Davis, Solomon Alabi's willingness to "knock you on your ass" and why he thinks Toronto won at the draft.

Davis

"I was really high on the kid. I think that his feel for the game is really good. I think he's got the upside potential of being a scorer. Like I've been tweeting, he's got this slinky game where he can kind of move around guys. Kind of like Bosh, actually. He's not Bosh-level, but, he's not that far away from it. He's got a great touch around the basket. He doens't have Bosh's quickness, but he's got a good bounce. He just knows where to be. His instincts are excellent. He's always in the right place. He's also got an edge defensively, likes to block shots, which is something I didn't expect to see necessarily at this level. He's somebody who is going to score in this league. I don't know if he'll be a low-post threat, that would obviously be the ideal situation for Toronto, but he's going to be able to score off of other people, at a very high percentage. As he gets stronger, he'll get fouled more because he'll be able to handle contact better and refs will reward that. I think he's a guy that's going to be an above average player in the league.

"Going in I would have taken Patterson over Davis, but after watching them both play... I liked Patterson better, I still like Patterson a lot, but now I see Davis as a guy that maybe has more upside and I think Toronto is going that route a little bit. They're a young team and Davis has a chance to be a better player than Patterson over time."

Bargnani

How do you see his game fitting with or complementing Andrea Bargnani's game?: "Not great. I don't know that he'll be the rebounder that you'll probably want to put next to Andrea. He's someone that I can see being in a rotation, but not always with Andrea. I personally think Andrea needs a guy that's a big time shot blocker, a real five. Ed's a four. I see Ed as a backup to Andrea, but a nice little mix, he obviously does most of his scoring in the paint where Andrea does it from the outside."

DeRozan & Weems

"It's marked. Two of the more improved players from one summer league to the next. DeRozan, part of it's just more confidence. A year older, stronger, tougher, all of that. His command with the ball was good. Same with Weems. Both of them athletically are excellent together. They defended hard, they raced the floor, stayed very involved in the transition game. Absolutely felt comfortable being the leading scorers of the team. The difference now is Weems can shoot the three and DeRozan can't. At some point you want your two-guard in the NBA to be able to make threes so that's something DeMar's going to add to his game if not this year, certainly by next year. There's plenty of time this year. Players may struggle in November and December, but shoot it well in February and March.That's something I would guess he will try to mix in every day as time goes on to make it more a part of his game."

Alabi

"I thought there were some times where he really showed what you want to see in a seven-footer. He made a lot of plays around the rim. He's a guy that really shoots it well, I'm not sure he missed but one jumpshot this week, but he hasn't taken many. To me, this is a good thing. You want him around the rim where he can use his size and length to his advantage. He did a great job racing the floor, going rim to rim. The Raptors summer league team was so guard dominated with those two wings especially, Alabi and Davis did a good job running the floor and it would open up the lane for the wings, for Weems or DeRozan because the first guy back on defence was worried about the big guy. You don't get an assist on that, but that was good basketball. Most of the times, Alabi did a good job of not fouling, which I thought was really important. When he did foul, he did so aggressively, which is what the Raptors sorely need. He has no problem knocking you on your ass and not apologizing for it. I think he needs to play a lot of time in the D-League playing a lot as a focal point kind of guy and I think he'll end up being a longtime NBA player."

The article is pretty good except Thorpe remains clueless about the Bargnani-Johnson pairing. That's okay even a lot of Raptors fans and writers remain clueless about it, though fortunately Triano and BC do not.

After watching some of the summer games I thought Alabi looked like a high second rounder (I thought Whiteside looked pretty good). Thorpe still thinks he thought he was a low 20s pick. Again, he is a good prospect who only started playing at about 15 and in Nigeria to boot. Sending him to the D League is probably best.

That's a pretty optimistic review of our young guys, gotta hope his words about Davis are right in both the offense and defense categories. I think he hit the nail on the head about the Bargnani/Davis pairing and that both of them would benefit from playing with a true center.

Lets talk in terms of the East, where do you see them ranked? I say Orlando has the best, then Atl, Chi, NYN and then maybe the raps if we are strictly talking about the starting 4/5. I am sure I am forgetting someone and can't count the Heat since I'm not sure if they have starting center yet, but if they play Bron at 4 and Bosh at five they jump to the top.