I measured keys from my KB120, though not as thoroughly (samples of each profile rather than every key). I also measured the stems on the KB130, which I had incorrectly assumed were all the same depth below the skirt, and heights in the diagrams are now relative to the stem rather than the skirt. I will likely measure my Advantage before year's end.

Although I only measure two of each profile from the Advantage, my impression is that its keycaps are molded to tighter tolerances than the older ones, though we're talking <5 mils rather than ~10.

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some specifications not crucial, the degree of slope seems the same? Height of key top on switch should be the same?

I was surprised by how much difference there was in some of the caps, e.g. a full 1/10 inch in the home keys between KB120 and KB130. I certainly have never noticed any difference in key shape between KB130 and Advantage (my primary home and work keyboards) though I did notice a difference in key feel (Cherry switches do wear!).

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Now to see if all the key caps can be acquired as 'standard' key caps from sources....a few with the very high 'skirts' wouldn't be too crucial I think...

I suspect any reasonably similar caps would be fine. I think SP has a choice of stem lengths, which might help someone ordering from them.

Although I only measure two of each profile from the Advantage, my impression is that its keycaps are molded to tighter tolerances than the older ones, though we're talking <5 mils rather than ~10.

I was surprised by how much difference there was in some of the caps, e.g. a full 1/10 inch in the home keys between KB120 and KB130. I certainly have never noticed any difference in key shape between KB130 and Advantage (my primary home and work keyboards) though I did notice a difference in key feel (Cherry switches do wear!).

I suspect any reasonably similar caps would be fine. I think SP has a choice of stem lengths, which might help someone ordering from them.

Cherry switches wearing: Are you referring to the tactile bump, the spring tension, or both?I wonder if there is a difference in the actual keywells (the 'basket' that the switches are mounted into)? I'm not going to investigate that On the most recent "CODE" measurements, can you explain the relative measurements?

I am going to be making key caps (as shown in a GH thread), this info is extremely relevant. And if someone wants no legends/different legends this will be their guide.

First two columns (Fr Bk) are the height of the key from the bottom of the skirt to the lowest point of the cylinder. St is the distance between the bottom of the stem and the bottom of the skirt; all the stems are inset slightly (shorter than the skirt). So Fr+St and Bk+St are the stem-relative heights shown in the diagrams. The final two columns are the angles between the base of the (bottom of the skirt) and the front and back faces of the key.

Hi, just popping in to say I'd be interested as well. Blank is fine. My keyboard is black, but the keys wouldn't have to be. White could be cool. And separate colors for ARSTNEIO (if you know what I mean) and the rest would be good.

I knew of the doubleshots and singleshots, but was unaware of the differences between the singleshots. (I was a little suspicious though)

1) I'll send an email to Rick at Kinesis and ask if there is any info (such as approximately when the changes may have occurred and if there is more than the 3 we now know about thanks to Kps). I'll also ask if there is are different keywell 'baskets'.

2) I'm probably going to WASD Keyboards on Friday the 23rd, and will bring at least a 130 series and an Advantage. Before that I'll look and see if there are any differences between the 130, 132, 134. We'll try to match up all the key caps on the boards and test fit.

Then WASD will be the "go-to" guy for Kinesis key caps. He'll be the "#1 Kinesis Key Cap Expert on the Planet" and have the exact key cap layout. Hell, that's gotta be worth something to someone somewhere. This will allow different colors/laser/etching if he knows what key cap to supply. And we may be able to get equally sized and shaped PBT or other type key caps, maybe even doubleshots. Imagine, one-click Kinesis key cap ordering. Who would have thunk it?

I'll try and see if there are any differences with the keywell 'basket', but somehow I doubt there is. I'll be sure to keep the (at least) 3 key cap sets for future reference and for key cap molding purposes.

I will mold key caps for the Kinesis this spring with my goal being to make a better-feeling key cap. If it turns out great, I'll be here to brag. If it sucks, you'll never hear another word about it ever again.

I'm a big WASD Keyboard fan, he's pretty much won me over when I saw the lengths he goes to with his business to take care of customers wants/needs. I think he might do it to a certain degree. Maybe not in all colors. I'm sure it will depend on how many keys are not "standard of what he carries" and how hard/expensive they are to procure. Let's face it, there probably won't be a line out the door for these. But I think it would be great if he did, and had some website optimization specifically for it. Plenty of Kinesis users want blank, or a different layout and stickers suck. Plus, as you can see from the Kinesis Gallery, plenty of people paint, dye, or otherwise custom-look their Kinesis boards (and they aren't Geekhackers). I'm sure Kinesis would refer people to him for key caps they don't provide. I already link him in the Split Kinesis article, but I can do a better job of it, especially if there are some neat photos.

There is also the possibility that a couple key caps will be VERY close but not exact. That may be an option as well. I'll bring calipers...I don't have an angle finder anymore though

I will take a black and a white keyboard, and we'll put various colors on them and have him snap some pics in his photo-box. They may not all be the correct key caps, but I think it would be wise to get some cool color concept pics to show and inspire.

I bet we can definitely do some sort of a group buy between GH and Deskthority at least once or twice.

OBSERVATION:My Kinesis doubleshots home row are shiny and smoother than the singleshot home row.The doubleshots other than home row are less shiny and smooth than the singleshots other than home row.Can you confirm Sordna and KPS?

My Kinesis doubleshots home row are shiny and smoother than the singleshot home row.The doubleshots other than home row are less shiny and smooth than the singleshots other than home row.Can you confirm Sordna and KPS?

The keyboards I have close to me (the Advantage LF and my pristine model #110) do not have shine on the keys yet :-)My other model #110 has keys so shiny from use, they are glossy like mirrors on all rows! However, being doubleshots they actually look great!

Just to let you know, I'd be interested in a set or 3 of Colemak (or possibly blank) key caps as well. Wouldn't mind getting rid of the stickers on the numbers row and other places, but that'd mean a slightly different layout in my case.

Just to let you know, I'd be interested in a set or 3 of Colemak (or possibly blank) key caps as well. Wouldn't mind getting rid of the stickers on the numbers row and other places, but that'd mean a slightly different layout in my case.

You mean from WASD Keyboards? PM me with the keyboards/key cap info/questions/thoughts asap.

This...

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Or this?

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 35601[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 35602[/ATTACH]

You mean from WASD Keyboards? PM me with the keyboards/key cap info/questions/thoughts asap.

Oh are you in a hurry? I thought you'd go talk to the WASD guy first to check if he can even provide all the different keys needed for a Kinesis Contoured, and possibly even offer sets, and since it's nice to know some people who'd likely buy I thought I'd tell you I'm interested in general.

Anyway, I have 3 Kinesis Contoured Advantage (all less than 3 years old), two of which are in use.

Depending on price/availability I'm interested in:Ideally: Two full sets of key caps for my custom (Colemak) layout. Since I'm the only one who uses this I guess it's rather unlikely to be able to get it. All the main keys are Colemak, but many of the other stuff is changed. If you think it's possible I could ofc make a list of keys using the excellent key cap overview by kps - or do you think the key caps on my newer models are different?Alternatively: Two full sets of blank key caps (not as awesome as Colemak keycaps, but beats having wrong info printed on the keys). Maybe a light and a dark set to make a check board pattern (like some korean SC2 players and sordna). ;) Light/dark shades of grey would probably be better than black/white.

***

Also WTH is that thing called Frankenboard? :D Nice work on the blank black keboard, I like the real F keys and extra thumb keys. Even the blank grey one looks very nice. :)

Well I figured since this thread is about key caps for Kinesis Advantage it'd be obvious. Updated previous post with model and serial numbers if it matters. Also thanks a bunch for all the work you did!

"The keycaps started out standard from Cherry, however years ago there were changes in the factory."

"Different factories have different tools and methods, which explain some of the slight differences, especially in the slope."

"However, looking at some of those diagrams, one must take into account the length of the stem. Where one keycap from say an older model 120 may appear smaller than a keycap from a newer keyboard, the stem was likely longer, thus it wouldn’t feel any different when placed on the Cherry key switch."

"As far as I know there have only those three styles, however it was never intentional. The slight differences were simply a matter of changing factories over the years."

So I guess it would seem that Kinesis had the profile/slope/height of each key cap where they wanted it, they have kept it (or tried to keep it) the virtually the same, and anything underlying (shorter key, longer stem, visa-versa) is somewhat of a non-issue. It's all about the key cap top height and slope (which a minor variance shouldn't be an issue). I'm still not clear if there are any actual special "Kinesis" key caps.

WASD Keyboards has The Configurator for their silly, common flat keyboards, so....I was thinking that if anyone had a specific idea of key cap colors/combinations they wanted to see/might want on a Kinesis, when I go on Fri. I'll have a white and a black Kinesis that we can 'mock up' and Weyman can take pics in his photo-box.

This looks pretty neat, though I'd probably replace a few of the colors. I do like the grey color of the main keys though.

On a Kinesis board the whole Esc/F# keys row would need to stay the same, given they're rubber keys. I assume the yellow key is something special like Fn?Most of the modifier keys are in the thumb cluster on a Kinesis and thus already easily distinguished from the other keys - only Shift and Tab are left as special keys in the keywell area... for symmetry I'd probably only change the Shift keys (at most, maybe even leave them) and leave Tab alone. Or more likely, because it's easier: leave the thumb clusters alone, leave the Shift keys alone, and just change the other keys.This is assuming labeled key caps. With blank keys all of them would need to be replaced (except the rubber keys).

BTW I'm in contact with Kinesis about LF keywells to upgrade my Cherry Brown Kinesis, and I asked about key caps. Rick referred me to this thread. Small world.

Yesterday I ordered a few keys from WASD: Green shift and arrow keys (so it's symmetrical (though I know not everyone keeps the arrow keys in their default locations (well, me neither -- I swapped up and down))). And then a red key for my control (caps lock) which will break the symmetry. But all in all, I think black with a bit of blue and green and then a red accent will work nicely. I'll post pics when I get them.

I (we, with my employees) had what seemed to be a pretty clean retrofit solution to convert them to switches. I was going to do it at cost (about $30), figuring about 10 people would send their keyboards, and we could get the idea 'out there'. The real problem which makes this not feasible, is the other 6 keys in the rubber F-key row. Moving them is a full-on complete re-work solution.

***I will be editing this single post with updated information, solutions, thoughts, work-arounds.***

WASD Keyboards Kinesis Key Cap Project

First, let me thank WASD Keyboards for all of their help and support. Ever since the beginning, they've been informative and have provided solutions. Without their efforts, some of these projects would be dead-in-the-water. Plus WASD still has areas they are evolving into that will further be of interest to GH.

This post is a work in progress and what I have done currently. I need to add more pics with close ups and edit. I'm trying to get all the info and the steps to get to the 'perfect' point. What we've discovered is that many keys were the same, a few aren't, some of which are still ok, and a few that need a work around. The few that may not be an exact match, I will be using for a week or two to see if I notice or get used to the differences.

Direct key cap replacement: [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 35886[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 35910[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 35911[/ATTACH]The key caps that can be replaced with EXACTLY the same key caps ONLY, are shown in this photo. There are 6 key cap 'types' so far and they are color coded (mostly). Red, orange, grey, and white single keys, and the two long grey keys which are also different from each other (they should have been 2 completely different colors for this example). For the right hand keywell/thumb cluster the "SPACE" key is an 'enter' key on a num pad. The "ENTER" key is an 'R1 1x2' key. The 10 Black and blue keys with legends in this picture are original Kinesis key caps that don't have an exact replacement (yet). At this stage, everything is as original, no changes.

KEY ISSUE #1 (affects 6 keys-pinky keys) [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 35890[/ATTACH]The extreme right row, lower 3 pinky keys match R2 which is the same profile as a "G" and "H" key but are 1x1.25 instead of 1x1. The replacement keys are about 1mm taller front skirt than the original Kinesis keys (which affects the slope) These are R1 1x1.25. Note the 2 red arrows to show the slightly high key corners. The bottom key it's not an issue, the top key you may graze the high corner. This key may not be an issue\problem, I'm just trying to get the exact replacements as a first choice.OPTION: Need R2 1.25 keys that have the actual same slope of key top. (HELP: you can compare with the "G" or "H" key, should be same exact top slope and height). I don't believe this designation key cap exists as a 'standard key'.

KEY ISSUE #2 (affects 2 keys-pinky keys) [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 35891[/ATTACH]The extreme right row, upper most singlepinky key is a NUM 1.25 version of the NUM/P2 row key. So it's different than the 3 keys below it. At this time we are using the same key as the lower 3, so it's 'flatter' and not facing you as much as the original Kinesis key. The upper corner key is such a low-use key, this may be acceptable.OPTION: Need a NUM/F-key that is 1.25. (HELP: you can compare with a "NUM" or "F-key" key, should be same exact top slope and height).

KEY ISSUE #3 (affects 8 keys-home row) [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 35892[/ATTACH]The 4 home row keys (blue) are spherical. I don't know if this is for ergo purposes, for home row identification, or a little marketing, but I'm thinking it may be for the latter two choices. Since WASD had no spherical keys we used the same profile as the orange row (R3/P3) above, because they are the 'flattest' slope. I believe the spherical keys are available, we just need to source them. Here is an observation/possible solution: If you look at the entire home row (HJKL:") the key to the very left and the very right are the profile (R2 or P4 on kps chart) which also is a standard key. Yet the 4 keys that the fingers rest on are zero slope/slant. Maybe this is not as much for ergonomics as it is just for the identifying of the home row finger positions. If that is the case, those home row keys could either be 1) stay as the sphericals, or 2) have the same "ergo" profile as the left and right key (R2/P4) but have a nubbin for identifying. I should have recognized this sooner when I was at WASD Keyboards. I have replaced the R3 we put on at WASD with R2/P4 and I think it's very good, maybe better than the R3.OPTIONS:1) find Spherical2) R2(HELP: you can swap and compare and offer opinions)

KEY ISSUE #4 (affects 4 keys-thumb cluster single keys)The two keys at the top of the cluster are very tall (see P1 on KPS chart). The slope is not a problem, it's available, but not in a key of that dramatic height. I'm working on changing some other key heights for a work around. Since we didn't have any of the 2 highest keys, I'm playing with adjusting all three key heights. In the pictures above, you can see the original Kinesis keys with legends, and the 2 lower keys that are the appropriate keys for those positions (red and grey keys). What I've done to keep the staggered height, is to remove the highest keys and move the keys "up" a spot to see if it will all work together. There are a couple ways to do this, and I'm looking for what's best. [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 35883[/ATTACH] [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 35885[/ATTACH]We will need to (ideally) get the exact keys, but just short of that, what we have here will work. I need a couple days of using it on one hand to see how any differences may affect usage. The key on the left is an R2/P4 on kps chart, the middle key is the NUM/Fkey/P2 on kps chart, and the key on the right is the extra tall P1 on kps chart, and seems to not be a standard key. Perhaps someone can measure the tallest keys on the Race? [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 35907[/ATTACH]OPTIONS:1) Need correct key height/slope (see KPS chart for measurement)2) develop work around with multiple key adjustments (not as bad of an idea as it sounds)(HELP: you can swap and compare and offer opinions)

Fun Factoid: I found out at WASD Keyboards that the original doubleshot keys (allegedly from Cherry) appear EXACTLY like Signature Plastics doubleshots, they look exactly like the key caps for the Kinesis keyboards. They were only offered in white, but it just so happens that WASD has a bunch of black doubleshots many that fit Kinesis...they look good Good thing for WASD I don't like legends, or I woulda been stashing those bad boys in my pockets till I jingled out his store!

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WASD Keyboards has the following colors, laser, etching available (if not more that I don't know about): [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 35912[/ATTACH]And keys can always be Rit Dyed for more combinations like purple, pink, safari stripes or camo.

I am still going to be making resin key caps for the Kinesis sometime this spring. Who knows what will happen? If it can be made to be high-quality, and easily, might do it and have WASD sell them.KEYBOARDING RESULTS:

Key issue #1-No problems and can't tell a difference.

Key issue #2-No problems but I can tell a difference. These two keys are very low use, so I'm going to say that the difference is negligible.

Key issue #3-No problems, I am currently using the R2 and am used to it.

Key issue #4-This I have not had the time to address ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------UPDATE: 1-25-2012Boli, the human guinia pig, has ordered this from WASD Keyboards as the first test set. This set is lacking the 4 tall modifier keys (CTRL, ALT/OPT, WIN/COMMAND)

the two extra-tall keys on the thumb cluster sort of look like those highest-row ones on the new Race, I wonder if they're the same.

Still: Good work! I also like the pictures. I'm a visual learner, so seeing the different colour on the [8] key really explained things for me. I sort-of understood why it was a different profile until now, but now it makes a lot of sense.

I'll go back and add, amend, correct, solve the key cap issues in POST #83. It's quite involved unfortunately and not worth it for all the crazy posts. This way people can skim the same post to see as the "problems" get deleted and only the solutions are presented.

I went to the wiki (thanks for the kick in the butt KPS) and noticed (mostly Ripster) has made dramatic changes and added a lot of shizz. There may be an answer in there or a direction. I want to solve this thing right away, so I'll try to spend time over the holiday doing what I can with the key caps, measurements, and mock-ups. After that, anything that is not resolved will involve contacting the massive GH database of users, WASD, other manufacturers to get the last couple pieces dialed in.

At that point the hope is that we can go to WASD with a Kinesis key cap order and just specify colors, legends, O-rings, etc.

When I was at WASD, dooling around with all the shapes and sizes, I didn't have time to try any color schemes Maybe just need to use a Photoshop or something...anyone wanna throw in on this?

KEY ISSUE #1 (affects 6 keys-pinky keys) (Attachment Link) 35890[/ATTACH]The extreme right row, lower 3 pinky keys are R2/P4 1.25 which is the same profile as a "G" and "H" key. The replacement keys are about 1mm taller front skirt than the original Kinesis keys (which affects the slope). Note the 2 red arrows to show the slightly high key corners. The bottom key it's not an issue, the top key you may graze the high corner. This key may not be an issue\problem, I'm just trying to get the exact replacements as a first choice.OPTION: Need R2 1.25 keys that have the actual same slope of key top. (HELP: you can compare with the "G" or "H" key, should be same exact top slope and height).

Are you using R1 1x1.25 as replacement? Or some R2 1x1.25 that is for some reason not the exact right size? Either way, doesn't all three of them have the high corners?

Are you using R1 1x1.25 as replacement? Or some R2 1x1.25 that is for some reason not the exact right size? Either way, doesn't all three of them have the high corners?

Good question.Using R2 1x1.25. Keep in mind, some of the issue are the key itself, and some of the issue is it's relationship to adjoining keys. The reason the middle of the 3 keys does not have any mentionable difference is that the corners are "away" from home row finger movement, and the key above/below are higher, so it minimizes or negates the potential 'high corner' in that key position. Also since the key wells are formed, there are different angles at different spots that may maximize or minimize the issue.

Does that make sense?

EDIT- Maybe there is a different standard key that can go there...hmmm....need to look more and compare. And, I may be making a key mistake here and there, so that's why a little time and help is welcome! EDIT---The 3 pinky keys have the same profile as the R1 key caps but are 1.25 wide. I assume these are R1 1x1.25 keys. I'm checking to see if there are R2 1x1.25 key available. If there are, I think this one issue disappears.

EDIT---The 3 pinky keys have the same profile as the R1 key caps but are 1.25 wide. I assume these are R1 1x1.25 keys. I'm checking to see if there are R2 1x1.25 key available. If there are, I think this one issue disappears.

I'm still confused.. They should be R1, therefore you're looking for... R2?

When I ordered from WASD recently, the only 1x1.25 key available (in individual keys, at least) was R1 so I'm surprised you got an R2. Either way, I'll report on using three WASD R1 1x1.25 as the pinky keys when I receive them.

WASD Keyboards has the following colors, laser, etching available (if not more that I don't know about): (Attachment Link) 35912[/ATTACH]And keys can always be Rit Dyed for more combinations like purple, pink, safari stripes or camo.

Having just spent hours reading the Rit dye thread, I wonder: Are WASD keys PBT and not ABS such that they can be dyed without melting?

I'm still confused.. They should be R1, therefore you're looking for... R2?

When I ordered from WASD recently, the only 1x1.25 key available (in individual keys, at least) was R1 so I'm surprised you got an R2. Either way, I'll report on using three WASD R1 1x1.25 as the pinky keys when I receive them.

DANG! I'm getting confused. The WASD keys that I used to replace the Kinesis keys R1 1x1.25. I don't think there are R2 1x1.25. The existing Kinesis keys match an R2 1x1 profile, so it seems that we want R2 1x1.25 keys.

$35 for standard keycaps and $39 for the dual legend (qwerty/dvorak ones). Both come in black or white. That's what they quoted me early August. At that time I learned they even have black dual legend keycaps (for some reason I had thought the dvorak caps only came in white).

fossala

$35 for standard keycaps and $39 for the dual legend (qwerty/dvorak ones). Both come in black or white. That's what they quoted me early August. At that time I learned they even have black dual legend keycaps (for some reason I had thought the dvorak caps only came in white).

The dual legend ones are ugly, I type in dvorak and would prefer qwerty than dual. I wish they would sell me some blank ones, that would make me happy.

My first Kinesis had dual legends. I thought they were okay, but all my subsequent boards have QWERTY keycaps because I don't need to look at the keys at all! Hmm, never asked them if they have blanks, maybe they do, did you ever ask Kinesis about it? If you didn't please do, they respond pretty quickly to email.

I have not been at my keyboard very much this week, but I'm pretty comfortable with the alternate non-Kinesis keycap replacements. The one last item I have not taken more time to address is the thumb cluster keycap work around using different key heights. I can do that more seriously this weekend and have final thoughts then.

Got my caps.. these pics were taken at night and the colors are a little off. I tried to fix them in post-production and even though it might not look like it, the colors were worse before :-P

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I have tried the new keys on the various pinky key locations (key issues 1 & 2). Using an R1 as shift is fine. Using another key on the NUM row (I tried an original shift (R2)) is no problem for me, since I float to get up there anyway. The different slopes of the two middle pinky keys (caps lock and tab) are a bit more noticeable. I'd like to have the true R2s, but if it's not possible, it's not possible.