As special counsel Robert Mueller builds his case, relatives of former National Security Adviser Michael Flynn are among those pressing the president to use his unique legal power and ‘put these defendants out of their misery.’

Polish-Israeli spat over Holocaust guilt

WARSAW — An effort by the Polish parliament to ensure Poland isn’t tarred with responsibility for helping Germany commit the Holocaust during World War II exploded into a Polish-Israeli war of words over the weekend.

The controversy pulled in Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his Polish counterpart Mateusz Morawiecki, and is undermining one of the closest relationships between Israel and any EU country.

It cast a shadow over Saturday’s annual Holocaust Remembrance Day, marked by Morawiecki and surviving prisoners at the Auschwitz concentration camp, where Morawiecki said: “Auschwitz isn’t a Polish name and Arbeit macht frei [the motto over the entrance to the camp] isn’t a Polish phrase.”

The lower house of the Polish parliament passed a bill Friday criminalizing statements that “publicly and against the facts ascribe responsibility or co-responsibility for the crimes perpetrated by the Third German Reich to the Polish nation or the Polish state.”

The law, which still has to be approved by the upper house senate and signed by President Andrzej Duda, carries a penalty of a fine or up to three years in jail whether the statements are made in Poland or abroad. There is an exception for “academic or artistic” work, but Polish prosecutors would examine any such research.

“It was conceived in Germany but hundreds of thousands of Jews were murdered without ever meeting a German soldier” — Centrist Israeli politician Yair Lapid

The reason for the legislation is a long-running battle by Polish authorities to curb a practice in the media and elsewhere of using terms like “Polish concentration camps” to describe the camps built in German-occupied Poland during the war to kill Jews and others.

That campaign has been largely successful, and Polish embassies around the world launch immediate protests when such comments appear in the foreign press. Former U.S. President Barack Obama beat a hasty retreat after using the term in 2012 at a ceremony honoring a Polish wartime resistance fighter.

But the immediate concern in Israel is that the law is also an effort to whitewash some of the darker parts of Poland’s wartime experience, in which a small minority of Poles either outed Jews trying to hide from the Germans, extorted money from them, or killed Jews themselves.

There were heroic Poles who helped rescue Jews, although the large majority of ethnic Poles did little, partly out of fear over the German death penalty for aiding Jews.

When the war started there were about 3 million Polish Jews. By 1945, only thousands remained.

Those who dwell on that uncomfortable past like Jan Tomasz Gross, a Polish-American historian who wrote about the 1941 Jedwabne pogrom in which Polish villagers killed their Jewish neighbors, are often criticized in Poland.

The current right-wing government is especially allergic to anything that casts Poles in a less than heroic light, as it has a policy of boosting patriotism and national pride in an effort to bolster its own political support.

However, the bill is reopening historic wounds with Israel, normally a very close Polish ally.

Israeli fury

Centrist Israeli politician Yair Lapid, whose father was a Holocaust survivor, tweeted: “I utterly condemn the new Polish law which tries to deny Polish complicity in the Holocaust. It was conceived in Germany but hundreds of thousands of Jews were murdered without ever meeting a German soldier. There were Polish death camps and no law can ever change that.”

“I am a son of a Holocaust survivor. My grandmother was murdered in Poland by Germans and Poles. I don’t need Holocaust education from you,” responded Lapid.

Yad Vashem, the World Holocaust Remembrance Center, issued a statement opposing the new legislation, describing it as “liable to blur the historical truths regarding the assistance the Germans received from the Polish population during the Holocaust.”

“We’ve had enough of Poland and Poles being blamed for German crimes” — Beata Mazurek, deputy speaker of parliament

Netanyahu, who is battling a domestic corruption scandal and whose Likud party trails Lapid’s Yesh Atid grouping in opinion polls, instructed the Israeli ambassador in Warsaw to meet with Morawiecki over the issue. Morawiecki tweeted a reminder that Poland and Israel had jointly agreed to combat “mistaken terms like ‘Polish death camps.’”

Stanisław Karczewski, the speaker of the Polish senate, said on Sunday he would meet with Israeli Ambassador Anna Azari for a conversation “to eliminate doubts about the German death camps.”

However, the willingness of Poland’s ruling Law and Justice party to budge on such an emotional issue appears limited.

“We aren’t going to change any regulations in the law,” tweeted Beata Mazurek, the deputy speaker of parliament. “We’ve had enough of Poland and Poles being blamed for German crimes.”

Authors:

Related stories on these topics:

Milton38

What Morawiecki in essence said, Auschwitz is not polish territory. Hear, hear.
Perhaps Morawiecki can also explain why not even a year after the end of WW2 Jewish citizen fled across the border to Germany. I am waiting with bated breath.

Posted on 1/28/18 | 6:42 PM CET

croc

i am surprised this is published in politico and fair play , the question here is simple should the concentration camps be called polish or german or (nazi) in a more German friendly version?

Posted on 1/28/18 | 7:09 PM CET

Anne

So, if a tourist visiting Poland unwittingly says “Polish death camp” they will be arrested and thrown in jail for three years? That is severe.
In English its very easy to slip up and say “Polish” when you actually mean “in Poland”. Even Obama did it.

Posted on 1/28/18 | 7:17 PM CET

Muppet Guy V.

Don’t play a fool, lEUftard, you perfectly know what is it about and how this is going to work. Eventually you can try to go there and experiment.

Posted on 1/28/18 | 7:57 PM CET

Jmc0891

I’m pretty sure France will welcome all the Jews with open arms.

Posted on 1/28/18 | 8:28 PM CET

Jmc0891

Oh, wait aren’t Jews like emigrating en masse from France and rest of western Europe from fear of religion of peace.

Posted on 1/28/18 | 8:30 PM CET

Veritas-Semper

Oh Cienki, Cienki… you step ever so glibly over the statement that Germans instituted the death penalty in Poland for helping Jews. You should have stated that Poland was the ONLY country where the Germans did so. Why? Perhaps because despite the death penalty, thousands of Jews were saved. And, the thousands of trees at Yad Vashem represent those righteous Poles who risked their lives (and the lives of their loved ones, and even entire villages to save their Jewish brethren despite the German death penalty. Poles – by far – are represented as the largest group and nation at Yad Vashem. That is not to say, that there were not Poles who preyed, denounced or even killed Jews. The Polish underground state had a special unit dedicated to sentencing and executing those Poles who did so.

The new law is meant specifically to prevent Germany from twisting history (successfully, unfortunately) by laying the blame for its atrocities known as G*rman De*th Camps at Polish feet. Now, that Poland has a government that has freed itself from the shackles of the ”1989 round table with the communists”, it is high time that it take on the German historical dis-information head on.

pol

Even Jewish historians like Efraim Zuroff now say that Lapid’s statements were historically inaccurate… saying that the claim that hundreds of thousands of Jews died in Poland without seeing a German is absurd.

Posted on 1/28/18 | 8:56 PM CET

Caspar Nilsson

Both Poland and Israel are overdoing this thing

Posted on 1/28/18 | 9:03 PM CET

...

Just call them JEWISH DEATH CAMPS

BTW, Politico quit deleting my comments, this is a provocative statement to show just how insensitive the Israeli side is, when it does not take into consideration what the Poles are trying to articulate.

There are two great lies:
1. That the Holocaust never happened.
2. That the death camps were Polish.

Posted on 1/28/18 | 9:14 PM CET

steve

Holocaust industry, go exploit someone else

Posted on 1/28/18 | 9:14 PM CET

...

Politico you guys are pathetic… deleting comments that you don’t like, just a bunch of Marxist pricks just sitting around and steering the discussion to fit your ideological narrative.

Posted on 1/28/18 | 9:24 PM CET

croc

Should the camps not be called german? Calling them anything else does not give justice to the victims

Posted on 1/28/18 | 9:51 PM CET

www

I always value mr Cienski’s insights, but this one is quite manipulative and inacurate.
First, i agree that criminal law is not the best tool to deal with history, but what is actually proposed (not passed) is not what you quote here! I assume mr Cienski has read this provision, so i guess he knowingly manipulates us here…
Second, this “centralist” Israeli politician you quoted, in a next sentence (why did you leave it out?) claims that there were actually Polish death camps (that would only be true if he meant the victims). Actually both of those claims are NOT True (hundrets of thousends died? where this number come from, what is he talking about? Middle Ages?). And for Polish they are as hurtful and absurd as holocoust denial for Jews (or anyone). Quoting this guy shows actually how far this holocaust hysteria can go, detached from historical facts!
True, this proposal by PiS is poorly written and will probably be revised. But if you drop your prejudice and aversion to PiS (which i totally share with you) you could see what is behind it. And the truth behind is that Polish are more and more frustrated and desperate seeing how they are depicted by Western “elites” like Mr Cienski or his ‘centrist’ Israeli politician

Posted on 1/28/18 | 10:15 PM CET

www

“There were Polish death camps and no law can ever change that.” REALLY? Name one! Claim about “houndreds of thousends” is equally fake (when? where?). And claim about his grondmother is killed by Polish – unknown (one was in Israel, the other in Budapest!).
Three accusations = three lies, this man has issues and it is very sad that you quote them without appropriate comment. And he was awarded title “most influential Jew in the World” in 2013. So it’s not a Trump -say whatever – guy, but a respected influential figure spreading hurtful lies without any consequences, quoted by Politico….
Well, now you know why Polish can’t stand it any longer….

Posted on 1/28/18 | 10:32 PM CET

NK

Poles can rewrite history to mislead their own generations, they simply can’t mislead the world. The dumb thing by a dumb state, trying to blame Germans just to look good to the world. The Polish law is for Poland not for the world. The world know more about you then your own generations.

Posted on 1/28/18 | 10:45 PM CET

Jay

@NK, Poland blames the Germans because it was Nazi Germany who build the camps when it occupied the country.

Auschwitz is not a Polish name and the sign on it entrance ‘Arbeit Macht Frei’ is not Polish, but GERMAN.

Posted on 1/28/18 | 11:11 PM CET

Jay

Politico you are really something, you delete my comment in which I respond to the obnoxious trolling by user NK, where I point out that the name Auschwitz is GERMAN not Polish… if he has any confusion on who build the camps.

So, you keep his asinine comment but delete my response.

Great job in moderating, and keeping all the Poland bashing comments in place.

Posted on 1/28/18 | 11:20 PM CET

maciekimaciek

NK
The regulation is supposed to stop people like you from blaming Poland and Polish nation for genocide and crimes commited by Germany and German nation during WW II.

Posted on 1/28/18 | 11:54 PM CET

Troubadour

Hmm, and what about Poland’s complicity in the Romany holocaust?

Posted on 1/29/18 | 12:36 AM CET

dc

“It was conceived in Germany but hundreds of thousands of Je ws were murdered without ever meeting a German soldier.”

Yes – exactly:
– Je ws were selected by Je wish administration of ghettos to be sent to concentration camps and herded to cattle wagons by Je wish ghetto police
– many barbarian kapos in Aus chwitz-Birkenau were of Je wish origin
– Zyklon-B with which concentration camps prisoners were brutally poisoned was invented by a team under German scientist of … Je wish origin – Fritz Haber.

Do those facts make Je ws co-reponsible for holocaust together with Germans, according to logic of Yair Lapid or Benjamin Netanyahu ?!?
What is your opinion on that Cienski ?

Posted on 1/29/18 | 12:40 AM CET

croc

The author a pole mentions how many jews were killed by the Germans but fails to mention how many poles were murdered by germans …approx. 3mln of polish Catholics but i suppose let’s forget about Catholics who cares if we to take israel complains then after accepting that concentration camps were polish we should just admit that it was the poles that attacked Poland in 1939 and killed 6mln of its citizens half of them jews to be liberated from themselves by the soviets. But seriously were there polish colaborators for sure, were there people who used german policies to get rid of unfriendly neighbour for sure but it was not polish state that build and organized concentration camps and exterminated both jews and polish people there

Posted on 1/29/18 | 1:08 AM CET

PolishVictimsHerosWinnersGods...

The issue at hand here is obviously Polish patriotism, even Polish nationalism. A patriotism and nationalism which prevents some Polish citizens to accept the historical fact that also Poles aided and even openly supported Nazis in their murderous actions.

The attempt by PiS to use a new law to achieve their goal to reinterpret or rewrite historical facts will logically fail but it speaks volumes about the intellect of the individuals attempting to do so!!!

Posted on 1/29/18 | 1:35 AM CET

um jeden Preis an der Oder halten

@Anne
Do you say ‘Cuban military base Guantanamo’ in English?
If not, why?

“Both Governments firmly oppose any form of discrimination on racial grounds and anti-Semitism, as well as any attempts at distorting the history of the Jewish or Polish peoples by denying or diminishing the victimhood of the Jews during the Holocaust, or using the erroneous terms of memory such as “Polish death camps”.”

Then suddenly in 2018 Israeli Government goes bananas over legislation that intends to penalize the use of this term in the same way Israel penalizes attempts to deny existence of the Holocaust.

Something must be amiss here. Pitty that Politico has not explored subject in depth.

Posted on 1/29/18 | 8:23 AM CET

Anne

@um jeden Preis an der Oder halten
Yes. America’s Cuban military base/America’s military base in Cub
or America’s South Korean base/America’s base in South Korea
are interchangeable phrases.
An adjective can be used simply to indicate something’s location.

Posted on 1/29/18 | 9:00 AM CET

Historical truth

The Poles are embarrassed of all those Polish collaborators with the Nazi death machine, and would rather make the world forget about them.

But the Jews will not let them get away with – literally – murder.

Posted on 1/29/18 | 11:26 AM CET

Leon

Yair Lapid is spot on.

Posted on 1/29/18 | 11:38 AM CET

maciekimaciek

Milton38
Nothing new from you, as bullying CEE countries is your business here.
1. Morawiecki reminded that from September 1939 Poland was occupied by Germany and USSR and that only those countries are responsible for unimaginable atrocities they commited on Polish territory during WW II.
2. Some Jews escaped from Polish territory after WW II, but not to Germany, as it did not exist after the war but mostly to the USA occupied zone.
Having survived, mostly thanks to the help of heroic Poles, the horrors of German totalitarianism some Jews fled another, this time soviet totalitarianism.
All other Jews and all Poles had to strugle under soviet totalitarianism until 1989, when Solidarity trade union brought Russian CEE empire to collapse.

Posted on 1/29/18 | 12:23 PM CET

maciekimaciek

Anne
So you do not see a difference between “Polish death camps” and “Germany’s Polish death camps”.
What a surprice!
BTW, do you comment by Disqus under the same nick-name?

Posted on 1/29/18 | 1:21 PM CET

Rafael

Unfortunately it seems very hard to post something here under this article.

All my prior comments are not being displayed at all which is something “new”. Usually they only disappear mysteriously after posting but this time they don’t show up at all ….
Funny, isn’t it

Posted on 1/29/18 | 2:15 PM CET

dc

@Anne
“An adjective can be used simply to indicate something’s location.”

Even in this respect coined term: “Polish concentration camps” is simply a gross lie.
As Auschwitz-Birkenau was not built by Germans in occupied part of Poland – so called “General Governorate”.
Auschwitz-Birkenau was built by Germans on German territory as this part of Poland was annexed by IIIrd Reich, became part of Germany, and Polish citizens were expelled from the location before the camp was built.

And a lie repeated mindlessly by Obama does not make it true.

Posted on 1/29/18 | 2:57 PM CET

Veritas-Semper

@ Rafael

Agreed. It appears that this topic has triggered a much higher-level of Politico censorship beyond the application of a simple algorithm, and there is real human censor behind the scenes.

Not only words, but specifically the concept and logic of expression which do not fit a preconceived and acceptable Politico response fall under the censor axe…

Posted on 1/29/18 | 3:18 PM CET

NK

@ xyz
If you drive BMW and hit someone while driving under influence, you can blame Germans for BMW.

Rafael

@nk
this raises very much the question under which kind of influence you are currently. What drugs are you absusing?

Please take your medicine. Everything will be fine.

Your comparison and failed attempt of an analogy very clearly demonstrates your psychological state of mind. It’s if you were comparing apples with teddy bears.

Posted on 1/29/18 | 3:58 PM CET

Anne

@maciekimaciek
My point is that English-language adjectives based on country-names are vague. Polish means “in Poland” or “of the people/nation of Poland” depending on the context.
The government of that country shouldn’t legislate based on their personal dislike of the vagaries of the English language.
People know that the Nazi Germany built and ran the concentration camps in Poland.

And yes, there is a difference between the phrase with “Germany’s” at the front. However if the term “Polish concentration camps” were used in an article about Nazi German atrocities that would be fine as “Polish” in that context would simply be understood to mean the location on today’s map.

& no, I don’t have disqus account. Anne is a fairly common name.

Posted on 1/29/18 | 4:11 PM CET

European observer

The Poles want to sugarcoat their nation’s history. They cannot tolerate the idea that theirs is a nation of sinners and saints, just as every other nation.

Nothing too special about Poland except an inflated sense of self (while as a nation, it tends to underperform its betters in Western Europe quite dramatically).

Posted on 1/29/18 | 4:24 PM CET

michal karski

There are comments around – and not only on Polish sites – which portray Jaroslaw Kaczynski as a superbly cunning and adroit politician, who usually manages to outsmart his opponents. Frankly, I don’t see it. I believe J.K. is well on the way to isolating Poland in the international arena. This latest legislation may be designed to right a historical wrong, but is likely to alienate everybody in the Western world except the die-hard PiS supporters.

Having said that, the Israeli PM should have chosen his words more carefully in this diplomatic spat. The PiS government, for all its faults, is not denying the Holocaust.

My own opinion is that the “Polish death camp” phrase is most definitely offensive since it is patently untrue, but trying to legislate against its use by people who are incorrigibly anti-Polish is unenforceable. It may be possible to sue individual foreign journalists or other authors, perhaps, (for what? For libel? – the argument could always be made that the phrase merely refers to geography), but how will the Polish government police the anonymous, below-the-line commentators who will gleefully use the phrase – and are already doing so – to prove their right to free speech?

Also – how are you going to deal with the upcoming protest by right-wingers outside the Israeli Embassy, Mr K? What will world opinion think of Poland if the extremists make the headlines again? Will it all be the fault of anti-Polish Western media?

Where is your “Wyspa Tolerancji”?

Posted on 1/29/18 | 4:32 PM CET

take it for granted

Karski,
Do you really have to exhibit your issues with some JK here?

Posted on 1/29/18 | 4:58 PM CET

michal karski

What issues? Who runs things in Poland if not JK? Don’t tell me this proposed law has not been approved by Mr K.

Posted on 1/29/18 | 5:04 PM CET

Rafael

@michal karski
You have the right to think and feel about JK how you like but you are to some extent mistaken that everything what is happening in Poland, is managed by him. As a matter of fact, in the recent weeks / months many things have happened which are completely against JK’s agenda, line and idealogy. As an aside observer one may even get the feeling that Polish politics has been sabotaged and is being steered by some mysterious 3rd party which is aligned with Western interests. There is some serious undermining going on and JK lost many of his most loyal ministers from key ministerial roles and at the same time long-time key international issues have been dropped against his programme.

But let me just allow one minor side-note when it comes to legal matters. You should be aware that in many countries it is already against the law to claim that the HoCo was a lie or twisting historical facts around that event. People have been sued for that.

Posted on 1/29/18 | 6:20 PM CET

michal karski

Rafael –

Maybe you’re right when you say that Mr K is not in complete control. I certainly still see him as a back-seat driver who gives directions. But leaving aside any question of personalities in Polish politics, I think this entire issue, which is hugely important to Poles and Polonia worldwide, has been handled badly by this government.

I would actually like to see some mechanism which would prevent foreign journalists writing inaccurate or offensive phrases, but I don’t think this law is the way to do it. Up until now there has been a reasonably successful effort by various people, including Polish embassies, groups such as Polish Media Issues or the Kosciuszko Foundation, to persuade editors to change their style guides where necessary. I think existing libel laws could certainly be invoked if an individual, for instance, is slandered or if a patent untruth is presented as fact. But this kind of proposed blanket ban on a phrase is not the answer, in my opinion, and would be unworkable for the reasons I gave earlier.

Posted on 1/29/18 | 7:09 PM CET

Rafael

@michal karski

I agree with you partly.
The problem is that it has become a very sensitive and emotional issue for Poles and particularly difficult in the combination with Germany as well as German media.

It’s one thing if Obama says this or uses such a phrase without any bad intentions.
But It’s a completely different story when this term is being used by German media, especially media which to a large degree are politically affiliated and are public media (such as the ZDF). This was and is a very deliberately motivated move which is even more insulting as the responsible editors refuse to apologize for it.

I am a citizen of Germany and I have observed for many years now that German politicians/historians and German media follow an agenda to whitewash and relativise their guilt and responsibility for anything that happened during this dark time period, particularly with respect to Poland, a country which suffered the most from them in any possible aspect.
Combined with their treatment of Poland, both politically and economically, Germany behaves in a very ignorant and arrogant way.
Thus one does not need to be surprised about negative and strong reactions.

I agree that things could have been treated with more diplomacy and sharpness, the only problem is that whenever Poland tries anything the soft way, it is simply speaking just being fooled.

Posted on 1/29/18 | 7:52 PM CET

umiarkowanyGość

The only “polish death camps” were the ones established by a communist puppet government imposed on Poland by Soviet Russia, staffed by Poland hating communist ethnic Jews, where thousands of Polish patriots were slaughtered.

Posted on 1/29/18 | 8:22 PM CET

20 km south of Auschwitz

@Caspar Nilsson
“Both Poland and Israel are overdoing this thing”

You are right, but there is also a question of money 🙂
1. After the second WW Polish (communist) government adopted a law ‘on abandoned properties’ (1946). By ‘abandoned’ you may to read ‘Jewish’, as whole Jewish families were murdered during the war.
2. In civilized nations, according to the principles of Roman law, ‘abandoned properties’ (ie where there are no heirs) are usually transferred to the local (municipal) authorities, to serve for the benefits of local communities and their citiziens.
3. Jewish community does not agree with it. Since the beginning of 1990’s it constantly demands from Poland compensations for Jewish properties ‘abandoned’ in Poland. Let me remind you. Before second WW Jewish people in Poland had Polish citizienship and all the rights and obligations resulting from this.
4. In order to push Poland to pay the compensations to the Jewish community (not to the individual persons belonging to it), Israel has to convince international opinion that Poland is guilty for being part of holocaust.
5. Do you remember Swiss banks paying compensations to the ‘victims of Holocaust’ for so called ‘dormant assets’. The mechanism is basically the same.

Posted on 1/29/18 | 8:43 PM CET

maciekimaciek

Anne,
Don’t you think vague adjectives should be used with special and even utmost attention when it comes to discussing such sensitive topics as death camps?

Posted on 1/29/18 | 8:52 PM CET

Rafael

@maciekmaciek
I can only support and reinforce your statements

@Anne
We have to be quite careful not to mix certain things.
Although generally speaking you are right by stating that in the English language there is a thin line when using such words as Polish in a context that it basically refers to the country of its origin. As in the majority of cases it does not really matter, here we are dealing with a situation which is not only highly sensitive but also very unusual. In historic contexts however there are many such cases and usually historians as well as journalists or public representatives follow those guidelines by being very accurate and careful with such wording as it does make a huge difference what nation you flag/label with the atrocities of the past. Journalists normally have a good knowledge about this as it is part of their education. Journalists have a higher responsibility for their words than normal citizen as whatever they write is being published and read by millions of people.
And unfortunately you are mistaken when you say that everybody knows that those camps were German. Maybe older generations do. But young generations know almost nothing of the dark past and when they read Polish camps then they can easily misunderstand such statements. So it is not trivial at all.

Posted on 1/29/18 | 9:38 PM CET

michal karski

Rafael –

I’m sure you are more knowledgeable about today’s Germany than I am, but your comment leads me to a related subject. Many Poles insist on “Nazi-German” or just “German” instead of the widely accepted term “Nazi”. One of the reasons usually given is that people who are not necessarily familiar with history should be made aware of exactly who these Nazis were. (The older generation all know who they were).

Apart from the fact that not all wartime Germans were Nazis, today’s Germans cannot be held responsible for the crimes of any ancestors. Nevertheless the Nazi Party was set up in Germany and any attempt by anyone to dilute the blame for the aggression of the Third Reich or for the Holocaust is a cynical exercise in manipulation which should be opposed. However, members of other nationalities did join forces with Hitler’s Third Reich, so from that point of view, the use of the term “Nazi” is not so much a question of not offending present-day Germany, but rather, including everyone else who supported the murderous policies of the dictator and his henchmen.

Posted on 1/29/18 | 9:42 PM CET

michal karski

PS – I posted this before I read your own comment to Anne.

Posted on 1/29/18 | 9:44 PM CET

dc

What about calling rape2 of German women and girls by Soviet soldiers: “German rape2” then ?
As rap1ng happened on German soil, so it is just an “innocent” adjective “used simply to indicate something’s location.”

Posted on 1/29/18 | 9:57 PM CET

haaretz

The Europeans for the rule of law
And all Jews that lost their lives in German death camps in Poland were murdered with help of Jews from Judenrats, Sonderkommandos and simple Kapos.

Posted on 1/29/18 | 10:41 PM CET

michal karski

And my PS makes no sense since the comment to which it was appended has not appeared.

Fun fact

dc

So bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki could be called “Japanese nuclear bombing” because it happened in Japan ?!?
As “an adjective can be used simply to indicate something’s location” ?

What a nonsense.

Posted on 1/30/18 | 12:19 AM CET

Europeans for the rule of law

Poles have murdered or abetted the murdering of 200 000 Jews, in collaboration with the occupying nazi. That’s the topic the ruling PiSlamists want to avoid.

Posted on 1/30/18 | 1:59 AM CET

marie

Simon Wiesenthal has advocated the following wise and balanced assessment of that tragic period which consumed millions of Jewish and Polish lives: “Then the war came. It is at times like these that the lower elements in society surface—the blackmailers who would betray Jews … On the other hand, the 30 or 40,000 Jews who survived, survived thanks to the help of Poles. This I know. But whenever I am talking on this subject, I always say that I know what kind of role Jewish communists played in Poland after the war. And just as I, as a Jew, do not want to shoulder responsibility for the Jewish communists, I cannot blame 36 million Poles for those thousands of blackmailers.”

Scholars of the calibre of Walter Laqueur have remarked that the Poles have become a convenient scapegoat, at whom all manner of false charges have been hurled. The oft-repeated charge that Poles were responsible for the Holocaust is a vile myth to which no serious scholar subscribes. Yisrael Gutman, director of research at the Yad Vashem Institute in Jerusalem and editor-in-chief of The Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, has stated authoritatively and without mincing words: “all accusations against the Poles that they were responsible for the ‘Final Solution’ are not even worth mentioning. Secondly, there is no validity at all in the contention that Polish attitudes were the reason for the siting of the death camps in Poland. Poland was a completely occupied country. … No one asked the Poles how one should treat the Jews.” And again: “I want to be unequivocal about this. When it is said that Poles supposedly took part in the extermination of the Jews on the side of the Germans, that is not true. It has no foundation in fact. There was no such thing as Poles taking part in the extermination of the Jewish population. There were minor exceptions when the (Polish) ‘Blue’ police and the Jewish police took part in the expulsion and extermination of Jews.”

Professor Gutman has stated that the percentage of Poles who collaborated with the Germans was “infinitesimally small.” Harvard University historian Richard Pipes wrote: “it must never be mistakenly believed that the Holocaust was perpetrated by the Poles. Nor must it be ignored that three million Poles perished at German hands.” Szymon Datner, long-time director of Warsaw’s Jewish Historical Institute, has been equally blunt: “Poles are not responsible for the crimes of the Holocaust.”

Joseph Rothschild, a noted historian at the Institute on East Central Europe at Columbia University in New York, writes: “… the achievements of the Polish resistance movement were indeed prodigious. It tied down approximately 500,000 German occupation troops and, according to official German figures, prevented one out of every eight Wehrmacht transports headed for the Russian front from reaching its destination. … Abroad, substantial Polish military units fought against the Germans on most Allied fronts: Norway, France, the Battle of Britain, North Africa, Italy, Normandy, the Lower Rhine, and the Soviet Union. And Poland was the only Axis-occupied country in Europe without a quisling.”

Posted on 1/30/18 | 6:04 AM CET

Rafael

@michal karski
Qoute:
“And my PS makes no sense since the comment to which it was appended has not appeared.”
I feel with you, It’s a common issue here 🙂

@Fun fact
Honestly, what’s so funny about it?
When something is trending on twitter, it just basically means that people discuss about it which in my view is good. As this is an emotional issue, there will always be very controversial views and opinions.
But stop labeling this issue as a PiS matter.
Such an issue does not have anything to do with politics but politics has the uttermost responsibility to react to such carless use of words which are an insult for the entire Polish nation.
I am living in Germany and I hate to hear and read in Western press (particularly German press) about such terms as it just makes me furious.
PO most likely would have swallowed the frog and would not have even barked submissively as a reaction to that.
It’s a typical beahviour of cowards who say it’s just raining when you spit them into the face.

Posted on 1/30/18 | 10:13 AM CET

michal karski

Thoughtful contribution from Marie.

Poland had been doing reasonably well up till now in attempting to come to terms with the unwelcome fact that not everyone in the wartime population acted honourably. This process has suddenly become imperilled by people who imagine that respect is a thing which should be demanded of others.

On the question of apportioning guilt, we are now learning exactly how much was known about the annihilation of the Jews of Europe by the Western Allies during the war – to a very large extent because of reports sent by the Polish Resistance – so when various commentators are tempted to heap blame not so much on some Poles, but on the entire Polish state (which had, of course, ceased to exist on Polish soil), then this begins to look like an attempt to deflect attention from the lack of any significant action of the wartime West in the face of Nazi atrocities.

Posted on 1/30/18 | 12:47 PM CET

michal karski

Correction: I should have said “exactly how much was known by the Western Allies about the annihilation of the Jews of Europe” etc

Posted on 1/30/18 | 12:58 PM CET

Rafael

@marie
Thank you very much for your time and effort to get those sources and those quotes.

I highly appreciate it as it’s objective and factual input.

Lots of kisses for you… 🙂

Posted on 1/30/18 | 1:04 PM CET

The story of Polish anti-Semitism is finally told

Haaretz and Jerusalem Post, the two leading Israeli newspapers, have been full of stories of Jews who perished at the hand of Poles (Polish collaborators with the Nazis and independent Polish perpetrators) during WWII, with some estimating their number as high as 200,000.

These stories need to be told, and they deserve to be listened to.

Never forget.

Posted on 1/30/18 | 1:45 PM CET

Jean

The Nazi camps weren’t Polish, so that’s not really the issue here. What is high problematic is that Poland wants to shut down the debate on ANY complicity of Poles with the Nazis, which was obviously not an isolated phenomenon, but happened at all times during the Nazi occupation and throughout the country.

Posted on 1/30/18 | 1:58 PM CET

dc

The letter of Lord Belhaven and Stenton to “Daily Telegraph” that “Daily Telegraph” refused to publish !!! So apparently also “Daily Telegraph” prefers to repeat fake news than acknowledge the truth.

” Sir,

Benjamin Netanyahu states that „Is rael has no tolerance for distorting of the truth, the re writing of history, and denial of Holocaust”. The statement refers to the proposal to make it illegal in Poland the description of the concentration and death camps in Poland as Polish camps. It must be clear to Mr Netanyahu that the death and concentration camps in Poland during the Second World War were German camps. They were run by Goverment of Germany, not by Polish Goverment which was in exile- or are we supposed to pretend that Hans Frank Himler, Heidrich, et al were Polish!

That is as mad as denying the Holocaust so it is hard to understand wy Mr Netanyahu levels that accusation against Poles.

The victims of German barbarism were Poles as well as Je ws. The penalty in occupied Poland for helping a Je w was death not only for helper but for his family. Some Poles were brave enough to risk this fate. I wonder if Mr Netanyahu would be brave enough to help a Pole were the situation to be reversed.

Your faithfully,

Lord Belhaven and Stenton”

Posted on 1/30/18 | 3:55 PM CET

otto

It never came into my mind to associate the word “Polish” with the words “concentration camp” or “death camp” or “extermination camp”. For me it is crystal clear who the murderers and criminals and organizers were. Speaking frankly, I don’t feel limited by the new law anyhow.

Posted on 1/30/18 | 4:09 PM CET

michal karski

Who knew what – and when?

Posted on 1/30/18 | 5:45 PM CET

Poland is great!

Our current president last year failed to mention Jews as he marked Holocaust Remembrance Day.

Poland has never admitted the complicity of their people in gladly handing over there Jews to the Nazis, & how badly they treated survivors who tried to return to their homes, only to find Polish people living in their homes, eating from their dishes, & probably wearing their clothing. Survivors were not welcomed, they were run off, or beaten, or killed.

There were righteous among them, but as a nation, Poland never faced this part of their past. Poles suffered mightily under the Nazi occupation; the death toll suffered by Poles estimates range from several 100 thousand to 2 million. Poles suffered mightily and speak about it easily, but they cannot speak of their part in the genocide of their Jews.

Posted on 1/31/18 | 2:21 AM CET

The Voice from the Canary islands

It is undeniable that Poles were directly or indirectly complicit in the crimes committed on their land and that Poles were guilty of anti-Jewish pogroms during and after the war. These are the facts of that terrible history, and the Poles, like all other nations conquered by Germany that became embroiled in the Nazi atrocities, have an obligation to the victims and to the future to seek the full truth, however painful.

Regardless how it is parsed, the Polish bill is a blatant and chilling effort by a nationalist government waging an offensive against the rule of law and freedom of expression to discourage that search. “Whoever accuses, publicly and against the facts, the Polish nation, or the Polish state, of being responsible or complicit in the Nazi crimes committed by the Third German Reich … shall be subject to a fine or a penalty of imprisonment of up to three years,” reads an article of the draft. But what constitutes an accusation? Who determines the facts? Who will risk three years in prison to seek the historical truth?

Posted on 1/31/18 | 2:32 AM CET

dc

–

Posted on 1/31/18 | 11:13 AM CET

dc

@The Voice from the Canary islands

It is undeniable that some J ews were directly or indirectly complicit in the crimes committed against other J ews and Poles during German occupation and were guilty of mu rdering Poles during and after the war – also under Soviet occupation:
– J ews were selected by J ewish administration of ghettos to be sent to concentration camps and herded to cattle wagons by J ewish g hetto police
– Section 13 of J ewish g hetto police, known as the “J ewish Ges tapo” specialised in tracking down J ewish people outside the G hetto walls, as well as their Polish helpers, and often profited by extorting them
– many barbarian k apos in Aus chwitz-B irkenau were of J ewish origin
– even Z yklon-B with which con centration camps prisoners were brutally poisoned was invented by a team under German scientist of … J ewish origin – Fritz Haber.
– after WWII numerous J ewish criminals – members of Soviet totalitarian administration were responsible for torture and murdering of thousands of Poles opposing totalitarian n azi and soviet invasions – just read Wikipedia entries for example for: Anatol Fejgin, Julia Brystygierowa, Jozef Rozanski, Jozef Swiatlo, Salomon Morel, Helena Wolinska – and about their crimes.

But these crimes do not allow to lie about other crimes that J ews or Poles have never committed – like “Polish” or “J ewish” concentration camps that never existed, but which lie is insolently repeated for example by some high ranking I sraeli politicians.

Posted on 1/31/18 | 11:17 AM CET

tuciu

@ croc, Leon : read the article before commenting on it: in Israel it’s not about the death camps but about censorship on the subject of antisemitic Poles who aided nazi Germans during WWII.
@ Jmc0891: censorship and propaganda in polish media, contemporarily called “historic policy”, have nothing to do either with France nor with antisemitism of muslim imigrants
@Veritas-Sritas, pol, steve, Jay, maciekmaciek, dc: Morawiecki is so right: “Szmalcownik”- polish description of a person making their living by selling Jews to German occupants or extorting the money for silence during WWII must be a german word decribing mostly German soldiers, right?

Posted on 1/31/18 | 1:24 PM CET

Rafael

@The Voice from the Canary islands
@Poland is great!
@The story of Polish anti-….

I’m not quite sure what is your point and objective with your posts. What are you trying to prove and achieve? What you are trying to point out? That Poles during the barbaric reigns, totalitarian regimes and oppression of Germans (and later Soviets), total occupations and total destructions, where millions of lives were taken, were no angels?! Come on, give me a break.

What you are saying is not only absurd but in many aspects also distorted lies. It is comparable as if you also blamed the American Indians (who were basically exterminated and almost wiped off the map in America by their new settlers) for fighting back or for committing bloody atrocities against the American soldiers and civilians.

I am not sure if you are of Je wish descent but let me just remind you of one thing. Poles have suffered much more under German/Soviet invasion and occupation then the Je ws ever did. Of course, many million Je wish lives were killed but the same happened also to Poles. The Holoc@ust was not just a Je wish tragedy as often portrayed in the press and the media. Also 3. mio Poles (and also other nationalities) died during that time period in various GERMAN death and work camps, next to some other millions who died in battles, in prisons etc . Poland as a country ceased to exist and all major cities and infrastructure were destroyed. It was complete annihilation for the Poles.

I am not saying that in those difficult and bloody times everybody was a good guy and behaving correctly. In extreme times unfortunately often extraordinary and ugly things happen. Thus – as always – there were many Polish people who betrayed themselves, their own country or Je ws for the only sake to save themselves or their families. This is just human nature. Whether you like it or not. Not everybody is psychologically strong or honorable. But Poles never collaborated with the Germans en masse as some like to portray and prove.

And while we are talking of the difficult matter of responsibilities. The problem is that Je ws in general for centuries always like to see themselves as “victims” and see everybody else as enemies and offenders, even in the case of Poland which gave the Je ws a new home and refuge from all the prosecution and injustice which happened all over Europe against them. They somehow never like to admit that to a large extent they were also responsible for the fate of their own kind and race.

Unfortunately, there is sufficient proof available which very clearly shows that the West (Allies) and the Je wish communities in the US, Britain etc knew very well what was happening and even there is some evidence that many knew what Mr. H planned to do with the Jew s in Germany. This can be evidenced by the fact that many of the more elite Je ws were given enough time to emigrate to other Western countries before the sh*t hit the fan.

But what is more disturbing is the fact that thousands of Je ws were actually also in the German Wehrmacht, and various units of the S-S, as well as collaborated with Germans in the concentration camps. Have a look at the book by British-Je wish researcher and book author Bryan Mark Rigg who discovered that thousands of men of Je wish descent and hundreds of what the N@zis called ‘full Je ws’ served in the German military with A. H!tler’s knowledge and approval. Cambridge University researcher Bryan Rigg has traced the Je wish ancestry of more than 1,200 of H!tler’s soldiers, including 2 field marshals, fifteen generals, two full generals, eight lieutenant generals, five major generals, “commanding up to 100,000 troops. You can find his books on Amazon if you like.

So, having said that, stop pointing at the shard in someone’s eye, while at the same time not seeing the wooden log before your head. Have a read of some earlier posts (e.g. that of Marie, Michal Karski and others) which clearly indicate that the West and the Je ws themselves had a much bigger role to play and a much higher responsibility for the extermination of their own kind than Poles ever did.

I also highly recommend to read the famous and controversial books by Je wish-American historian (his parents survived the HC) Norman Finkelstein by the title “The Holcaust Industry” as well as his other famous book “Beyond Chutzpah: On the Misuse of Anti-$emit!sm and the Abuse of History”

Posted on 1/31/18 | 1:55 PM CET

Chris_PL D

to @NK and some other commentators
It is sad to see how limited and selective is the level of history knowledge presented by many people in Western Europe (NK, most probably German, is a good example). Additionally, people of Western countries are under unbelievable and long-lasting false propaganda being sipped by their mainstream media. The reason: to cut you out of your roots and make you submissive towards the governments and any social experiments you are exposed to. One of the outcomes is that you believe in almost everything which is “sold to you” by media – just like fairy tales about “Polish death camps” which, by accident, were German.
Israeli government reaction has nothing in common with improper wording used in Polish parliament bill (they were in constant contact with Polish government during the legislative preparation works) but… with Jewish (financial) interest in stopping forthcoming reprivatisation law which is expected to come into force this year in Poland. Hmm, as you can see, false history can be used to get undue income. Surprised?
I would like to suggest you to be more careful in judging others but rather focus on your own backyard (e.g. political instability in Germany). Another suggestion: try to understand that Poland is no more “scapegoat” which can be accused for everything. We reconstruct our country and strengthen ourselves and we like the feeling. We know how to fight for our rights.
Mr. Timmermans one day asked: why you, Eastern Europeans, don’t want to be just like us? I hope, I answered this question above. Now thing more – maybe because we like our independence?
Just to conclude my message, I will quote famous man who lived centeries ago: “Knowledge of the history of deeds done in the country and abroad is considered by wise people as a parent and teacher of life” (Jan Długosz, 15th century Polish historian and diplomat)

Posted on 1/31/18 | 2:34 PM CET

Klaas

@ dc:

You sound like a typical Polish anti-Semite.

Shame on you.

Posted on 1/31/18 | 2:56 PM CET

Rafael

@Klaas
And you sound like a typical misabuser of that term AS
It’s the most common weapon used against anyone who shows some unconvenient truths.

I highly recommend to read the famous and controversial books by Je wish-American historian (his parents survived the HC by the way) Norman Finkelstein by the title “The Ho!oc@ust Industry” as well as his other famous book “Beyond Chutzpah: On the Misuse of Anti-$emit!sm and the Abuse of History”

Posted on 1/31/18 | 3:05 PM CET

Veritas-Semper

@ marie
@ dc
@ Rafael

I applaud you for bringing solid and consistent facts to this forum to debunk the consistent anti-Polish bias presented here and in general media dumping on Poland and the entire nation the acts of individuals which were in themselves abhorrent. However, these acts did not and do not represent the policies or acts on behalf of the Polish state. In fact, the Polish government in-exile and the Polish underground state included the protection and saving of Jews under the term “Zegota”. Those Poles who turned on their Je-wish neighbors, were sentenced and executed.

Further, using the logic presented by the anti-Polish bias media and individuals, the J-*ws themselves have not really addressed the abhorrent behavior of their own elites who collaborated with the German N*zis and sent their own brethren to Au*schwitz and other camps to save their own lives.

Whereas the disgusting behavior of Polish Christians was largely relegated to the lowest levels of Polish society, it was the Je-wish elites who turned on their own. Just one example: guess who ran the” day to day operations” in the gh*ettos for German Na*zis? The N*zis had willing helpers in the gh*etto dwellers themselves who preyed on their own.

Posted on 1/31/18 | 4:15 PM CET

Jan

Since then MrLapid admited to a lie . Polish prime minister was right Arbeit Macht Frei was on entrence of all concentration camps and saying otherwise,mr Lapid ,is holocaust denial

Posted on 1/31/18 | 4:43 PM CET

dc

@Klaas
Truth and facts are not anti-Semite, however uncomfortable they may be for some.

Fake news and lies, like for example those of Yair Lapid – former Finance Minister of Israel, Chairman of the Yesh Atid Party and member of Kneset – are rac ist, i.e. anti-Semite or anti-Polish in this case.

Posted on 1/31/18 | 5:27 PM CET

Veritas-Semper

@ marie
@ dc
@ Rafael

I applaud you for bringing solid and consistent facts to this forum to debunk the consistent anti-Polish bias presented here and in general media dumping on Poland and the entire nation the acts of individuals which were in themselves abhorrent. However, these acts did not and do not represent the policies or acts on behalf of the Polish state.
The rest of my text was censored… not a novel concept at Politico…

Posted on 1/31/18 | 7:26 PM CET

Filip

dc

@Veritas-Semper
Thank you.

This whole situation is so incredible.
It is hard to believe that Israeli politicians can be so stupid that with their insolent lies they grossly offend Poles – who saved them during WWII risking lives of their whole families, who still cherish memory of 1000 years’ history of Je wish community in Poland, who maintain with great effort and expenses remnants of Je wish presence in Poland – cemeteries, synagogues and also what left from German concentration camps – so that world will always remember German atrocities, who – as one of very few countries in the world support Israel in most of situations.

--

—

Posted on 2/1/18 | 10:14 AM CET

dc

@Veritas-Semper
Thank you.

This whole situation is so incredible.
It is hard to believe that Is raeli politicians can be so irresponsible that with their insolent lies they grossly offend Poles – who saved Je ws during WWII risking lives of their whole families, who still cherish memory of 1000 years’ history of Je wish community in Poland, who maintain with great effort and expenses remnants of Je wish presence in Poland – cemeteries, synagogues and also what left from German con centration camps – so that world will always remember German atrocities, who – as one of very few countries in the world support Is rael in most of situations.

How you can explain such lies to those children from a small Polish village for example:
youtube.com/watch?v=Dx-u6w050Oc

???

Posted on 2/1/18 | 10:17 AM CET

michal karski

@ Rafael

You need to be more careful with your wording. I may indeed have indicated that the West ought to have acted on information received much earlier, but nowhere did I suggest that Jews themselves bore any responsibility. You may like to google “Rabbis’ March of 1943”, which was a protest in Washington DC about the inaction of the US.

Posted on 2/1/18 | 11:24 AM CET

michal karski

I am against the proposed new law because it will be unenforceable – and also the exceptions for academics etc, make it fairly pointless – but I am certainly not against some kind of formal redress being available for the “Polish death camp” phrase.

As I said elsewhere, Wikipedia gives a definition of Holocaust denial as “the denial of the systematic killing of 6 million Jews and people of various ethnic groups in Europe by Nazi Germany in the 1930s and 1940s.”

There is already an existing mechanism available which Polish legislators could turn to. I believe I’m right in saying that there is a law on the statute books in Poland – presumably using the above definition – which should therefore make any new legislation quite unnecessary and this is the Holocaust Denial Law of 1998. The term “Polish death camps” would therefore fall foul of this law, since it could be argued that it attributes the genocide to Poland and not to Nazi Germany.

And Rafael – (in case my other comment has vanished forever) – please do not attribute to me something I have not said. I indicated that the West in general should have dome more but I did not suggest that Jews bore any responsibility. See “The Rabbis’ March of 1943” which was a protest in Washington DC against US inaction.

Posted on 2/1/18 | 11:57 AM CET

Rafael

@michal karski
Quote: “You need to be more careful with your wording. I may indeed have indicated that the West ought to have acted on information received much earlier, but nowhere did I suggest that Jews themselves bore any responsibility.”

I am sorry if the impression came up that I was linking my post with your words and your name only. That is not the case and is only a misunderstanding. I never claimed that it was you who said that. I was only referring in my post to some other commentators and named a few, including you as well due to your valuable input about the knowledge of Allies about the HC which they got from mainly from Polish intelligence.

But everyone wrote something else, so I was backing up only part of my post (Allied knowledge) with your words. For the rest I already gave sufficient evidence and sources which show significant involvement of their own kind in this entire tragedy.

Posted on 2/1/18 | 5:07 PM CET

michal karski

Rafael –

I don’t actually think it’s the business of non-Jews to point out any failings of Jews themselves or to insist on referring to the Judenrats or collaborators or any other examples of Jewish behaviour with regard to other Jews during the Holocaust. They were targeted for destruction whatever they did and many Jewish historians have already addressed the subject.

As for reactions in the West, you may or not be aware of one of the most dramatic protests about the extermination of the Jews which anyone could have made. This was specifically a protest about the destruction of the Warsaw Ghetto, Unfortunately, it did not make a great impression on the Western Allies. The person making it was attached to the Polish government in exile, which, as you know, was composed of representatives of virtually all pre-war groupings, in other words, a government of national unity.

NK

@ Chris_PL D

I heard the Polish history from a Polish friend as interpreted by his grandparents. Seems it was wrong to trust a Poles who introduce his history. I regret I trusted a Polish friend, listening to you and many other here. Maybe I shouldn’t have believed in what any Pole says anymore because I never seen those events from my eyes but the truth is, it’s hard not to believe while seeing current Polish behavior towards migrants in europe (this time it’s Muslims not Jews), I bet a lot for a new edition of Polish history.

Posted on 2/2/18 | 12:14 AM CET

Rafael

@NK
Before you write such nonsense, it’s always worth thinking twice before stating your opinion. Your twisted perception of the world and particularly the Poles can be mainly derived from a) apparent huge lack of historical knowledge, b) believing mainstream media without questioning and c) being severely influenced by Western thinking

Let me just explain a few things before you make up your mind.
Poland as a country like no other country in Europe over the course of many centuries has been invaded, occupied, divided, destroyed and ruled by foreign aggressive forces countless times. As a matter of fact, it is hard to find time periods in which Poland could enjoy peace and rule its territories by themselves and not having to defend itself or being entangled in wars which were brought to Poland either by Germany (Prussia), Russia, Sweden, Austria etc.
In other times Poland was just ruled by other countries (unfortunately often authoritarian regimes) and for a long time even wiped off the map. For close to 150 years, Poland did not even exist as a sovereign country due to the fact that it was divided between 3 aggressor states.
WW2 and everything which followed marked the peak for Poland in terms of brutality, injustice, destruction and inhuman treatment. Poland lost in WW2 about 1/4 of its entire population (including many children) and entire cities buried to the ground including all key infratstructure such as factories, bridges, railroads, streets. Should I also mention the extermination of Poles in camps both on German as well as Soviet sides?!
Being also betrayed by the Western Allies who handed Poland over to the Soviets did not really help much in building more trust and ties with the West.

Also already Poland once saved all of Europe form the invasion of the Turks/Ottoman Empire in the great battle at Vienna in 1683 (google it for yourself).

Maybe this will help you understand the inherent distrust and sceptism of Poland towards other nations and also huge waves of migr@ants.

And now I will smartly switch to my other topic, talking of migr@nts.

Have you never wondered why the largest (by far) population of J€ws was actually escaping from all of Europe and residing in Poland?
I can explain you very easily. Poland for many centuries provided the best conditions, rights and freedoms in all of Europe for J€ws. Poland as a nation was the most liberal and most tolerant country and by thus the best place to live after the J€ws have experienced on a massive scale persecution, hate crimes, discrimination and r@scist movements.

check also here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Poland

And now the one million dollar question for you:
Who brought an abrupt end to all this peace, harmony and tolerance for the J€ws in Poland?

Posted on 2/2/18 | 11:32 AM CET

Rafael

@michal karski
Contrary to your opinion I do believe it is our business and also our responsibility to point to such unconvenient facts and truths in a situation where Poland and Poles are notoriously being attacked and where certain forces are continously trying to blame and accuse Poland for things which happened on a fairly small scale but fail to see and acknowledge all the good things which Poland as a nation has done and provided for them over centuries, namely a safe haven from all the injustice and brutality which were done to them in other places.

As said earlier, not only were many Jews basically Poles as well (at this time period there was no state of Israel yet) but also millions ethnic Poles were killed on a mass scale.

Posted on 2/2/18 | 12:57 PM CET

Simon

Milton38 – I’ll tell you why – because US, UK and France sold us in Jalta. There was no independent Poland after WWII. Many who fought against Germany had to escape from communist Poland, many Polish soldiers who returned from UK were persecuted or even killed.

NK

If everything world known so far about history was wrong then why Poland waited for a century to adopt to the said law – does not make any sense. At least I never heard of any such attempt in last 50 years.

The whole issue about passing the law by Polish officials seems a part of strategic move apparently Polish but actually a British move to keep the eastern european block under British influence and use them against EU27 whenever needed.

If that is what it is, then I bet EU future model proposed by Martin Schulz is great one, in which he voiced getting rid of rats from EU.

Posted on 2/2/18 | 3:14 PM CET

Rafael

@NK
the only true “rat” as you call it is and has always been Germany. It’s the only country in the history of all mankind which is responsible for the deaths and exterminination of many hundreds of millions lives, when you take into account the death toll of both world wars and various other wars on European soil.

And Poland did not wait for half a century for that. First of all Poland was ruled for close to 50 years as a satellite state of the Soviets by communists (again, Poland not being a sovereign state)
And second thing, the term “Polish death camp” has only just recently been widely used mainly by Germany and German media which try to whitewash their guilt and distort historic facts. That’s why the law was never required or could be enforced before.

Posted on 2/2/18 | 3:50 PM CET

michal karski

Rafael

If Polish Christians, or, at any rate, Polish non-Jews, persecuted Jews, then we need to know. If Polish Jews persecuted Polish Christians or non-Jews, then we also need to know. If Polish Christians or non-Jews persecuted other Polish Christians or non-Jews, then we need to know that as well. But why exactly do we need to know about Jews persecuting each other?

Posted on 2/2/18 | 5:40 PM CET

michal karski

PS – I’m talking specifically about Polish Jews during the Holocaust who were all targeted, as I said above, for total destruction. Do we really need to know that some individuals collaborated? What does that knowledge add to enhancing the reputation of Poland in general?

Posted on 2/2/18 | 5:53 PM CET

Rafael

@michal karski
“Do we really need to know that some individuals collaborated? What does that knowledge add to enhancing the reputation of Poland in general?”

That is exactly the point. Honestly speaking I find it more than absurd that the systematic mass scale genocide, which has been deliberately designed, organized and executed with all the supporting structures, infrastructure and logistics, is now being compared or put next to each other to the actions of individuals. Even worse, those actions of individusls now seem to be put as blame against an entire nation.

Posted on 2/3/18 | 9:00 AM CET

michal karski

What I’m saying is that there are many commentators – clearly Polish – who, by constantly citing the example of wartime Jewish collaborators, are using this entire controversy as a means of being able to bash Jews in general. There are some ugly anti-Semitic attitudes emerging on pages like this.

The fact that there were Jewish criminals in Stalinist post-war Poland has nothing to do with the Holocaust. I suggested elsewhere that Poland should set up some kind of Truth and Reconciliation Commission to deal with these cases. This government has made a major mistake with this proposed law and it is not too late to withdraw it. As I said before, slanderous statements by foreign journalists can be dealt with by using the existing Holocaust Denial law. If people say there were Polish death camps then they could be prosecuted under the provisions of that law because the phrase effectively denies Nazi German responsibility.

Posted on 2/3/18 | 11:26 AM CET

michal karski

Pity there isn’t an edit function on this comments page. What I should have said earlier is “do we really need to know that some Jewish individuals collaborated”.

I remember writing on the Notes from Poland page, back in July I think, that Mr Kaczynski is likely to steer the ship of state onto the rocks (or something to that effect). I believe these are the rocks. Abandoning this law might refloat the boat.