StopDaddy:Anyone with a lick of knowledge about that region knew as soon we left the shiat was going to get real again. Whether it happened on Obama's watch or Hillary's or Jeb's <snicker> is moot. The insurgents knew we'd get tired and leave and it'd be time to make their move.

We won battles. We didn't win the war.

Anybody with a lick of knowledge about the region should have known that a soon as Saddam was removed as dictator shiat was going to get real there.

The U.S.-Iraq Status of Forces Agreement (official name: Agreement Between the United States of America and the Republic of Iraq On the Withdrawal of United States Forces from Iraq and the Organization of Their Activities during Their Temporary Presence in Iraq) was a status of forces agreement (SOFA) between Iraq and the United States, signed by President George W. Bush in 2008. It established that U.S. combat forces would withdraw from Iraqi cities by June 30, 2009, and all U.S. forces will be completely out of Iraq by December 31, 2011.

DjangoStonereaver:MaudlinMutantMollusk: ginandbacon: I'm curious as to when, exactly, we had this thing won. And when, exactly, we lost it.

We lost it the day we went in the GOP stole the 2000 election.

FTFY

raerae1980: Thanks Bush.

Can't believe I actually supported going to war. At least I never voted for him.

I really wanted to believe them when they said Saddam had WMDs, and was even willing to forgive themflip flopping on whether they were nukes or gas.

Once they went in and found none, I wish I could say I was shocked.

Well, Gore wanted to overthrow Saddam too even if he wanted the US to do a better job coalition building first and about half of the Democrats voted to support it. What makes you so sure President Gore wouldn't have done the same thing?

We attacked a country that had been under embargo for a decade, based solely on manufactured motive - lies, as normal people call them - and rabidly defended our "right" to basically raze the Iraqi infrastructure so that corporations could move in for the oil. We then installed a puppet government that would ensure that the oil would remain in the hands of those corporations, even as we committed atrocities that guaranteed the enmity of the population. We didn't "win" anything.

Bush put us in an untenable position. Leaving Iraq means that this outcome was inevitable, but staying in Iraq only postponed that inevitability, at high cost and with dwindling support. Frankly, Obama's taken way too long to get this done - we should've been gone at least two years ago. Of course, we should also have closed Gitmo, apologized to the EU, stopped illegal domestic and foreign surveillance, unwound the USA PATRIOT Act, and so on, and so on, but, given that much of that has nothing to do with Obama, it's going to be hard to make all that happen.

The legislative branch, not the executive branch, controls the money, and it's money that runs the world now. Money's upset that their enforcers - our military - are leaving Iraq, and so money's paid lapdogs are coming out to bark about it.

McCain is a lapdog. Nothing more. He's in deep for screwing up and giving Obama the Presidency, because he couldn't make Sarah Palin happen, and so he's repaying the campaign debts by barking for the folks that continue to hold his friggin' leash.

Sirsky:The U.S.-Iraq Status of Forces Agreement (official name: Agreement Between the United States of America and the Republic of Iraq On the Withdrawal of United States Forces from Iraq and the Organization of Their Activities during Their Temporary Presence in Iraq) was a status of forces agreement (SOFA) between Iraq and the United States, signed by President George W. Bush in 2008. It established that U.S. combat forces would withdraw from Iraqi cities by June 30, 2009, and all U.S. forces will be completely out of Iraq by December 31, 2011.

Source

What does that have to do with an al qaeda army blitzkrieging across an allied nation in 2014?

here's the deal: iraq is a european construct, created out of the desert after WWI by drawing lines on a map. those lines enclosed three historically antithetical factions: sunnis, shiates and kurds. stability was maintained initially through a colonial government, a strong monarchy and then through a brutal dictatorship. when we removed that dictatorship in 2003, it was inevitable that the country would fall apart. and that is what's happening now.

iraq should never have been a country in the first place, except maybe as a smaller sunni country, with the rest going to syria and an independent kurdistan.

⇑↑ THIS!! ↑&Arr;

nekom:FlashHarry: mccain is in-farking-sane.⋮Same problem in Africa, really. Arbitrary borders drawn up by foreigners that in no way represent the real ethnic, tribal or religious groups. See also: division of India and Pakistan

Cartographers may be among the most unwittingly dangerous people on the planet.

FormlessOne:We "won"?We attacked a country that had been under embargo for a decade, based solely on manufactured motive - lies, as normal people call them - and rabidly defended our "right" to basically raze the Iraqi infrastructure so that corporations could move in for the oil. We then installed a puppet government that would ensure that the oil would remain in the hands of those corporations, even as we committed atrocities that guaranteed the enmity of the population. We didn't "win" anything.

Bush put us in an untenable position. Leaving Iraq means that this outcome was inevitable, but staying in Iraq only postponed that inevitability, at high cost and with dwindling support. Frankly, Obama's taken way too long to get this done - we should've been gone at least two years ago. Of course, we should also have closed Gitmo, apologized to the EU, stopped illegal domestic and foreign surveillance, unwound the USA PATRIOT Act, and so on, and so on, but, given that much of that has nothing to do with Obama, it's going to be hard to make all that happen.

The legislative branch, not the executive branch, controls the money, and it's money that runs the world now. Money's upset that their enforcers - our military - are leaving Iraq, and so money's paid lapdogs are coming out to bark about it.

McCain is a lapdog. Nothing more. He's in deep for screwing up and giving Obama the Presidency, because he couldn't make Sarah Palin happen, and so he's repaying the campaign debts by barking for the folks that continue to hold his friggin' leash.

"The people of (the United States) have been led in Mesopotamia into a trap from which it will be hard to escape with dignity and honor."

Lawrence of Arabia knew. 100 years ago he knew. And we still don't understand or give a sh*t.

Can't believe I actually supported going to war. At least I never voted for him.

also be sure to thank: 0bama, both clintons, Biden, Kennedy, Reid, and every other democrat in congress who voted for going to war. Not to mention Germany, France, the UK, and just about every nation in the UN.

here's the deal: iraq is a european construct, created out of the desert after WWI by drawing lines on a map. those lines enclosed three historically antithetical factions: sunnis, shiates and kurds. stability was maintained initially through a colonial government, a strong monarchy and then through a brutal dictatorship. when we removed that dictatorship in 2003, it was inevitable that the country would fall apart. and that is what's happening now.

iraq should never have been a country in the first place, except maybe as a smaller sunni country, with the rest going to syria and an independent kurdistan.

Syria is the same kind of construct that Iraq is. So why you arbitrarely think parts of it should have been given to Syria is beyond me. It would just be a different way of drawing lines that has no root in history or demographics.

All in all, I think you're coming of as a hypocrite when you're biatching about how Europe drew the lines, and then in the same breath, explain how the lines should have really been drawn.

---

Its kinda irrelevant anyway, because those ISIL assholes are not a problem originating in the creation of the Iraqi state. They're mostly foreign fighters.

Just like how the Taliban are actually from Pakistan, and thus not a symptom of a problem in Afghanistan.

Of course you can rightfully argue that Iraq has their share of blame for ISIL, namely their seemingly complete incompetence of their army.

FormlessOne:We "won"?We attacked a country that had been under embargo for a decade, based solely on manufactured motive - lies, as normal people call them - and rabidly defended our "right" to basically raze the Iraqi infrastructure so that corporations could move in for the oil. We then installed a puppet government that would ensure that the oil would remain in the hands of those corporations, even as we committed atrocities that guaranteed the enmity of the population. We didn't "win" anything.

Bush put us in an untenable position. Leaving Iraq means that this outcome was inevitable, but staying in Iraq only postponed that inevitability, at high cost and with dwindling support. Frankly, Obama's taken way too long to get this done - we should've been gone at least two years ago. Of course, we should also have closed Gitmo, apologized to the EU, stopped illegal domestic and foreign surveillance, unwound the USA PATRIOT Act, and so on, and so on, but, given that much of that has nothing to do with Obama, it's going to be hard to make all that happen.

The legislative branch, not the executive branch, controls the money, and it's money that runs the world now. Money's upset that their enforcers - our military - are leaving Iraq, and so money's paid lapdogs are coming out to bark about it.

McCain is a lapdog. Nothing more. He's in deep for screwing up and giving Obama the Presidency, because he couldn't make Sarah Palin happen, and so he's repaying the campaign debts by barking for the folks that continue to hold his friggin' leash.

Can't believe I actually supported going to war. At least I never voted for him.

also be sure to thank: 0bama, both clintons, Biden, Kennedy, Reid, and every other democrat in congress who voted for going to war. Not to mention Germany, France, the UK, and just about every nation in the UN.

/at least Bush asked congress first, eh?

On the list of key words that indicate you have nothing useful to add.

This is the same farking idiot who went to the Al Daura market protected by three infantry battalions, a Stryker platoon, a cavalry troop, an attack helicopter squadron, Delta Force, and an Iraqi National Police battalion, while he was wearing farking body armor and declared it safer than an Indiana farmers' market.

Sirsky:The U.S.-Iraq Status of Forces Agreement (official name: Agreement Between the United States of America and the Republic of Iraq On the Withdrawal of United States Forces from Iraq and the Organization of Their Activities during Their Temporary Presence in Iraq) was a status of forces agreement (SOFA) between Iraq and the United States, signed by President George W. Bush in 2008. It established that U.S. combat forces would withdraw from Iraqi cities by June 30, 2009, and all U.S. forces will be completely out of Iraq by December 31, 2011.

Source

Doesn't matter. It's Obama's fault, as far as Congress is concerned. 2014 is an election year, and so Obama can do nothing right. He'll be blamed for not pulling out our troops by 2011, for pulling our troops out now, for not pulling all of them out immediately, for pulling them out in a staggered manner according to Bush's agreement, for anything that they feel may give them a leg up in the elections.

Quasar:Technically I guess we won the war. Unfortunately, like usual, nobody cared enough to think beyond blowing shiat up.

In addition to the above comments, middle eastern people don't have the cultural foundation to have real, successful democracies. I say that as a man of middle eastern descent. They need time to change their whole culture and mindset. You can't just shove elections at them and say "you're a democracy now! Have fun!"

The "Cultural Foundation" argument tastes sour to me, let me offer an alternate hypohisis. Nations don't develop stable and responsive governments from external sources. The history of post colonial nations has been one of instability and poor government that progressively improves over time, unless it gets continued serious influence from what we will call the Super Power Bloc. Like the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, we can meddle (aid to a power bloc, a military presence) or we can help (humanitarian aid), but to do one we can't do the other.

Sgt Otter:This is the same farking idiot who went to the Al Daura market protected by three infantry battalions, a Stryker platoon, a cavalry troop, an attack helicopter squadron, Delta Force, and an Iraqi National Police battalion, while he was wearing farking body armor and declared it safer than an Indiana farmers' market.

Can't believe I actually supported going to war. At least I never voted for him.

also be sure to thank: 0bama, both clintons, Biden, Kennedy, Reid, and every other democrat in congress who voted for going to war. Not to mention Germany, France, the UK, and just about every nation in the UN.

/at least Bush asked congress first, eh?

You do realize that Obama wasn't a Senator in 2003, yes? And that the only opposition to the war at all came from Democrats, and it was the GOP who were fully united behind the idea?

Also, you are asserting that there was a UN Security Council resolution for intervention in Iraq? That's hilarious.

Can't believe I actually supported going to war. At least I never voted for him.

also be sure to thank: 0bama, both clintons, Biden, Kennedy, Reid, and every other democrat in congress who voted for going to war. Not to mention Germany, France, the UK, and just about every nation in the UN.

here's the deal: iraq is a european construct, created out of the desert after WWI by drawing lines on a map. those lines enclosed three historically antithetical factions: sunnis, shiates and kurds. stability was maintained initially through a colonial government, a strong monarchy and then through a brutal dictatorship. when we removed that dictatorship in 2003, it was inevitable that the country would fall apart. and that is what's happening now.

iraq should never have been a country in the first place, except maybe as a smaller sunni country, with the rest going to syria and an independent kurdistan.

Except that now it is an OPEC nation, a very large oil producer, one of the largest in the world, and splitting it up geographically may be easy, but those folks aren't going to want to give up that oil revenue, and therein lies the problem - how do you split up oil money when the production of it isn't really spread out in the same way the ethnic and religious groups are?

In case you didn't notice. The Kurds just snatcged Kirkuk. So they're good. ;)

spawn73:nekom:Same problem in Africa, really. Arbitrary borders drawn up by foreigners that in no way represent the real ethnic, tribal or religious groups. See also: division of India and Pakistan

Huh, the creation of India and Pakistan (including what is now Bangladesh), seems like a genuine way of separating Hindus and Muslims.

I mean, they tried. Under the British, all of it was just India.

I watched a documentary on it recently, the British guy who was in charge of it tried his level best but was very frustrated with the impossible task. There was an ensuing mass migration of minority groups heading to the other country, and of course some stayed. It's no easy task.

Can't believe I actually supported going to war. At least I never voted for him.

also be sure to thank: 0bama, both clintons, Biden, Kennedy, Reid, and every other democrat in congress who voted for going to war. Not to mention Germany, France, the UK, and just about every nation in the UN.

/at least Bush asked congress first, eh?

You do realize that Obama wasn't a Senator in 2003, yes? And that the only opposition to the war at all came from Democrats, and it was the GOP who were fully united behind the idea?

Also, you are asserting that there was a UN Security Council resolution for intervention in Iraq? That's hilarious.

He's also full of sh*t. France did not support it. Anyone remember 'Freedom Fries'?

Quasar:Technically I guess we won the war. Unfortunately, like usual, nobody cared enough to think beyond blowing shiat up.

In addition to the above comments, middle eastern people don't have the cultural foundation to have real, successful democracies. I say that as a man of middle eastern descent. They need time to change their whole culture and mindset. You can't just shove elections at them and say "you're a democracy now! Have fun!"

Someone said yesterday that the United States wanted democracy for Iraq more than Iraqis wanted democracy for Iraq.

Can't believe I actually supported going to war. At least I never voted for him.

also be sure to thank: 0bama, both clintons, Biden, Kennedy, Reid, and every other democrat in congress who voted for going to war. Not to mention Germany, France, the UK, and just about every nation in the UN.

/at least Bush asked congress first, eh?

You do realize that Obama wasn't a Senator in 2003, yes? And that the only opposition to the war at all came from Democrats, and it was the GOP who were fully united behind the idea?

Also, you are asserting that there was a UN Security Council resolution for intervention in Iraq? That's hilarious.

He's also full of sh*t. France did not support it. Anyone remember 'Freedom Fries'?

I remember, because, I used to listen to talk radio, being told that ANYONE who did not support the war or Bush was a traitor and unamerican.

llortcM_yllort:DjangoStonereaver: MaudlinMutantMollusk: ginandbacon: I'm curious as to when, exactly, we had this thing won. And when, exactly, we lost it.

We lost it the day we went in the GOP stole the 2000 election.

FTFY

raerae1980: Thanks Bush.

Can't believe I actually supported going to war. At least I never voted for him.

I really wanted to believe them when they said Saddam had WMDs, and was even willing to forgive themflip flopping on whether they were nukes or gas.

Once they went in and found none, I wish I could say I was shocked.

Well, Gore wanted to overthrow Saddam too even if he wanted the US to do a better job coalition building first and about half of the Democrats voted to support it. What makes you so sure President Gore wouldn't have done the same thing?

Assuming that Saddam didn't do anything to overtly provoke the US (and he wasn't that stupid),I don't think Gore would have gone to the mattresses. He'd have done what Clinton did: continued theNo-Fly zones and economic sanctions.

The GOP wanted the war to get revenge on Saddam for not stepping down after the first Gulf War,pure and simple.

Noam Chimpsky:Sirsky: The U.S.-Iraq Status of Forces Agreement (official name: Agreement Between the United States of America and the Republic of Iraq On the Withdrawal of United States Forces from Iraq and the Organization of Their Activities during Their Temporary Presence in Iraq) was a status of forces agreement (SOFA) between Iraq and the United States, signed by President George W. Bush in 2008. It established that U.S. combat forces would withdraw from Iraqi cities by June 30, 2009, and all U.S. forces will be completely out of Iraq by December 31, 2011.

Source

What does that have to do with an al qaeda army blitzkrieging across an allied nation in 2014?

You keep using this term. Why do you keep using this term? Al Qaeda came out and said that the tactics ISIS has been using are over the top. They are not the same group.

Noam Chimpsky:parasol: Noam Chimpsky: Why are the Democrats letting an al qaeda army march across an allied nation conquering towns and leaving beheaded bodies in their wake?

okay - this made me laugh

Wow. You have a very dark sense of humor if you thought that was funny. I suppose it's funny until it's your family and friends that gets beheaded in a blitzkrieging al qaeda army's wake.

It is funny in that you asked why "the Democrats are...." as if the "democrats" in any position of power aren't stymied at every turn by the GOP - as in "Fartbama ren**ged on his pledge to end the war" or better "If he is for it, we're agin'it" OR as if "the Democrats" didn't bring this possibility up beforehand and were poo-poo'dIt is funny that you think ISIS is Al Qaeda.It is funny in an ironic way that you view that country as an "allied nation in need of US intervention" when they have asked us to leaveIt is amusing that so many "not Democrats" are appalled at the bloodshed in the wake of what was a predicable outcome but defend the NRA as if they were providing famine relief.

Is my humor dark? or am I faced with the option of laughing at the cartoon-like antics of "not Democrats" who demand the other party "fix" things and thus wash their hands of all fault, all action and all critical thinking?

It is either laugh and vote as often as is legal - or become a spiteful, one-sided, judgmental a** on an open forum demanding "someone else do something because I am sure it will fail and I really want to watch and be right"

/why do so many find beheadings so grim and objectionable? and what are the odds they mocked the Newtown officer who resigned citing PTSD as being "just interested in disability payments"?

Noam Chimpsky:Sirsky: The U.S.-Iraq Status of Forces Agreement (official name: Agreement Between the United States of America and the Republic of Iraq On the Withdrawal of United States Forces from Iraq and the Organization of Their Activities during Their Temporary Presence in Iraq) was a status of forces agreement (SOFA) between Iraq and the United States, signed by President George W. Bush in 2008. It established that U.S. combat forces would withdraw from Iraqi cities by June 30, 2009, and all U.S. forces will be completely out of Iraq by December 31, 2011.

Source

What does that have to do with an al qaeda army blitzkrieging across an allied nation in 2014?

It has to do with the accusation that Obama cut and run and that we should have left forces there when 1) it was agreed before he was elected that this was the timeline, 2) the Iraqis didn't want us there after that point, and 3) that the right attacked Obama for taking credit for the withdrawal, pointing to this very pact as proof that it was all Bush's idea in the first place.

raerae1980:I remember, because, I used to listen to talk radio, being told that ANYONE who did not support the war or Bush was a traitor and unamerican.

Back in the days of blinding rage in the wake of the most devastating terrorist attack in our history. I supported the war at first based largely on that kind of sentiment. I was dead wrong, and I'm not afraid to admit being wrong. Not sure what the hell we should do about it now though.

So even John McCain admits since the start of the Iraq war are only options were to keep troops in a middle eastern country forever fighting and dying, or leave and see the country revert to its natural state.

Sorry John, if we have to keep troops in a country forever fighting, it does not mean we 'had it won'.