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Of course what complicates the issue is individual preference. My only point is it's difficult when some individuals treat their individual preferences as transparent and obvious to all, and take offence when outsiders fail to recognise them; or worse, when they suggest something personally offensive to them, equates to bigotry against their wider group.

And of course being white offers such privileges - I don't deny this. But I also don't want to accept that privilege, and seek a more equal society for all. I only speak of such problems because I earnestly wish to bridge the gap but at times I am left feel confused and uneasy.

I'm sorry, I guess I did misunderstand you. I agree with all of what you say here. I feel that uneasiness too, a lot. It was the whole reason I started that racism thread I linked to up there in my previous post.

Originally Posted by Southern Kross

Of course, denying that there is a problem is offensive and idiotic. But isn't a colourblind culture still the ultimate ideal - what we people are fighting for (whether it's full achievable or not, is another issue). True equality is when you look at a black person and you think "person" first, not "black".

It is an attractive notion, yeah. But we really, really aren't there yet, so usually when white people say "I'm colorblind! just like Dr. King!" I am skeptical and figure they just mean they are never forced to think about race, so they don't. I'm not an exception to this. I still find myself going days, even weeks sometimes without thinking about race, which in our current environment I can do because it's not an issue for me in day-to-day life. I'm almost guaranteed to be in the majority in any group of people I find myself in. It's exceedingly rare for me to be the only person of my race in a group. I don't have to think about race. I do sometimes, usually on purpose, or on rare occasions I find myself in an uncomfortable situation because of race. I don't think we'll ever really be "post-racial," and I'm actually not sure it's really the ultimate ideal to never notice differences. But you're right that it sure would be awesome if everyone could only think about race when it suited them.

[...] Why is it that of all the minority groups, there remains a persistent segment of the black community that is determined to own the pejorative once directed at them rather than just discard it? Why try to repurpose and reclaim it, then criticize non-blacks for following the lead? The reason the word won't die is because they won't let it.

Interesting thread. I just wanted to throw in the Boomer old-guy perspective.

We had this same debate in the military at the end of the Vietnam War. The black servicemen freely called each other “nigger,” but the same word was off-limits to whites. We white guys asked our black friends why the word was okay for one group but not for another, and the answer was, “That’s just the way it is.”

Of course, this was before there was any talk of “reclaiming slurs.” Basically, the way we understood it was that the use of “nigger” was insider talk, and it followed the rules of all insider talk: Parents aren’t supposed to use teenager slang; it sounds stupid. Civilians aren’t supposed to use military jargon picked up from war movies; a vet will let it pass, but inwardly he is going to be thinking, “You haven’t paid your dues yet, kiddo.” And so on.

And then of course with the word “nigger,” there is the added satisfaction that it was/is a racial slur. That just heightens the fun of its use as insider talk to the nth degree: Outsiders can't touch it; the word is radioactive. As a result, there has always been a black subculture (usually the black underclass) who used “nigger,” and there probably always will be. As insider talk goes, it’s a prime piece of linguistic real estate.

Insider talk is a big “fuck you” to the rest of the world. And “nigger” is the biggest “fuck you” of all. It should be noted that this particular "fuck you" is not only directed at whites; most middle- and upper-class blacks detest the casual use of “nigger” as well. So it’s a big old “fuck you” from the black underclass to “the establishment,” which includes both whites and also middle- and upper-class blacks. It wasn't just race-related slang; it was also class-related.

I should note that the situation I’m describing is mostly from the past. In the past, the casual use of “nigger” among blacks and other such racial hangovers was centered in the black underclass and was more or less invisible to the mainstream. More recently, however, the whole “gangsta” culture has been mainstreamed by mass media: Music, movies, and TV. So there’s a new dynamic in play. But that new dynamic includes things like the glorification of gang violence, misogyny, heavy drug use, etc. Given that context, I think the question of the use of the word “nigger” in recent years is just part of a larger cultural issue: the mainstreaming of underclass values and culture as a whole.

To spell out that last point: The use of “nigger” has always been a constant in the black underclass; I don’t ever really see that changing. As such, I think it’s kind of a non-issue; or to put it another way, I think it’s a cultural constant. I think the bigger question is: How much do we embrace the underclass itself and its values, i.e., the language, the violence, the misogyny, etc.?

Just a quick disclaimer here: I myself actually enjoy the mainstreaming of underclasses. I enjoyed it when the mainstream explored the Mafia and the Italian underclass in the 80s (and again more recently with "The Sopranos"), and I’m enjoying the exploration of the black underclass today. I served with the black underclass in the military--it was fun seeing some of those guys up close and learning about the culture. And I enjoy seeing what the underclass is up to these days. Also, I would like to see more about the Latino underclass in the mainstream media.

So my post isn’t meant to be a putdown of the underclass. My point is simply: I don’t see the use of “nigger” as an issue in isolation. That particular issue has always been around and always will be, at least as long as human enjoy slang and insider talk. If I bother to examine the issue at all, I see it more in terms of the larger sociological issue of the (relatively) recent mainstreaming of the black underclass and the various culture clashes that ensue from that.

I have been Called Honky by an Indian man who also reffered to my friend as
a N*gg*r, these were on three separate occasions. Twice Honkey once
N*gg*r. Apparantely for i was not there to witness the N*gg*r incident people
who were present said he used the N word about five times with the pre word
F*ck*ng before it whilst gritting his teeth and right in the black guys face. Not
suprisingly he was sat down on his fat arse with a punch and told to remain
on the floor like the bitch he was. He even had the gaul to try and get my
friend pressed with charges but was informed that was fine but he would be
charged with racism if he proceeded to press the charge. He dropped it. I do
not like the N word in rap i would prefer homey, bro or something.The incident
with the Indian guy took place last year so as you can see it is still in use as a
racial slur. I do not like Uncle tom, wog or even coloured as it sounds like a felt
tip pen was used on their skin. All races are coloured so why should this be
directed at black people. Honkey is probably just as bad a racial slur but
i was more taken aback and suprised where as black people are probably unfortunately used to the N derogatory term. I am Jewish by bloodline and
i find the jewish slurs offensive and Jews were also targeted by the Nazi
loving Bast*rd national front of britain in the seventies and eighties. I do
not look Jewish and am church of England as a child so i have never had
Jewish slurs directed straight at me but it is all the same. I agree with the
Golly wog being taken off robinsons Jam it was in the past used as a racial
slur but the removal of bah bah black sheep from english nurseries is a step
to far, i do not remember black sheep ever being used as a slur except to
describe a member of a family who is considered the outsider etc etc it is
not colour directed and is just nursery rhyme where the black sheep has
plenty of wool for everyone.This is just political correctness gone mad.

Insider talk is a big “fuck you” to the rest of the world. And “nigger” is the biggest “fuck you” of all. Which makes it the best one of all, in the eyes of the black underclass. It should be noted that it’s not only directed at whites; a lot of middle- and upper-class blacks detest the casual use of “nigger” as well. So it’s a big old “fuck you” from the black underclass to “the establishment,” which includes both whites and also middle- and upper-class blacks. It wasn't just race-related slang; it was also class-related.

I should note that the situation I’m describing is mostly from the past. In the past, the casual use of “nigger” among blacks and other such racial hangovers was centered in the black underclass and was more or less invisible to the mainstream. More recently, however, the whole “gangsta” culture has been mainstreamed by mass media: Music, movies, and TV. So there’s a new dynamic in play. But that new dynamic includes things like the glorification of gang violence, misogyny, etc. Given that context, I think the question of the use of the word “nigger” in recent years is just part of a larger cultural issue: the mainstreaming of underclass values and culture as a whole.

To spell out that last point: The use of “nigger” has always been a constant in the black underclass; I don’t ever really see that changing. As such, I think it’s kind of a non-issue; or to put it another way, I think it’s a cultural constant. I think the bigger question is: How much do we embrace the underclass itself and its values, i.e., the language, the violence, the misogyny, etc.?

The glorification of violence and killing in gangsta rap is a disgrace instead of
setting an example they are promoting violence along with the mainstream use
of word N*gg*r. 50 cent refers to slim shady as White boy which i think is also
racist people have names they are not defined by the colour of their skin. he
also talks about a guy he is going to kill running away but says he forgot he left
his mother when he ran. Ie I will kill your mother. I liked the song In Da Club
so bought the album "get rich or die trying", it was appalling. I also believe
he is willing to show no grace or dignity towards his fellow brother and is
just a S*ck man chasing the cash (Greed). I also find offensive his constantant
quoting from the bible and applying it to himself as if the ability with others to
write offensive appalling garbage somehow makes him better or more equal
than others. The game says I can't drop him but I can.

The game : One Blood.

this song also uses the word n*gg*r about a hundred times and you will
see it's applied to people he doesn't like or has a problem with. I have to
admit i like the song but i think it has had it's day the word N*g*er to
re address the use of non blacks using it as derogatory word and take the
power away. A valid claim as all cultures buy into this music is that if it
continues the N word can be used to by everyone without fear of slander
because black people are putting it out into the mainstream and making
millions off the word in a market where white people buy in heavily.
It is time to phase the word out. I like the bass and flow of one blood and
the promotion of violence is limited to letting people know he has a shotgun
so when compared to cents ego pandering violent obsessed cash obsessed
Get rich or die........it's quite clean. Does the song work without the use of
the word N*g*er? I did not invent or promote the word so hopefully i will
not be accused of double standards by listening to it. I do believe it
should start to be phased out though.

Old Skool not one use of the N word

Eric B & Rakim : Paid in full.

Heat by 50cent.

Heat lyrics

[Skit]
"Aye you want some of this shit"
"Naw, I don't want that shit"
"I don't give a fuck, I don't play dat shit"
"And I'm fin'nin to buss a cap in a nigga"
"Man SHUT the fuck up"
"Whoa slow down, slow down, slow down"
"You see that brick house right there"
"That's the nigga crib when he come out you gotta tighten his ass up"
"I'ma get in the other car"
"Aight" [a car revs up]
[gunshots]

[Chorus: 50 Cent]
If there's beef, cock it and dump it, the drama really means nothin
To me I'll ride by and blow ya brains out (brains out)
There's no time to cock it, no way you can stop it
When niggas run up on you wit them thangs out (thangs out)
I do what I gotta do I don't care I if get caught
The DA can play this motherfuckin tape in court
I'll kill you - I ain't playin, hear what I'm sayin, homie I ain't playin
Catch you slippin, I'ma kill you - I ain't playin, hear what I'm sayin,
homie I ain't playin

[50 Cent]
Keep thinkin I'm candy till ya fuckin skull get popped
And ya brain jump out the top like Jack-in-da-box
In the hood summer time is the killing season
It's hot out this bitch that's a good 'nuff reason
I've seen gangsta's get religious when they start bleedin
Sayin "Lord, Jesus Help Me" cause they ass leakin
When they window roll down and that A.K. come out
You can squeeze ya lil handgun until you run out
And you can run for ya back-up
But them machine gun shells gone tear ya back up
God's on ya side, shit I'm aight wit that
We reload them clips and come right back
It's a fact homie, you go against me ya fucked
I get the drop, if you can duck, ya luckier then Lady Luck

Look nigga, don't think you safe cause you moved out the hood
Cuz ya momma still around dog, and that ain't good
If you was smart you'd be shook of me
Cuz I'd get tired of lookin for ya, spray ya momma crib, and let ya ass look
for me.
.................................................. ..........

" For my friend T and his fantastic mum "

LL Cool J : Mama Said Knock You Out.

If I suddenly die i woundn't look directly to the catholic church I would
look to this thing.
.................................................. .................................................. .....
[Chorus]

[50 Cent]
My heart bleeds for you nigga, I can't wait to get to you
Behind that twinkle in ya eyes, I can see the bitch in you
Nigga you know the streets talk
So they'll be no white flags and no peace talks
I got my back against the wind, I'm down to ride till the sun burn out
If I die today, I'm happy how my life turned out
See the shootouts that I've been in I'm by myself
Locked up I was in a box by myself
I done made myself a millionaire by myself
Now, shit changed motherfucker I can hire some help
I done heard about the 50 grand you put in the hood
But ya shooter fin'nin to get get shot it won't do 'em no good
With a pistol I define the definition of pain
If you survive ya bones'll still fuckin hurt when it rain
Oh you a pro at playin battleship well this ain't the same
Lil homie this is a whole different type of war game
See the losers and up in shackles of motherfuckin chains
Or laid out in the streets leakin out they brains

[Chorus]

[50 Cent]
After the fist fights it's gunfire boy you get the best of me (best of me)
If you don't wanna get shot I suggest you don't go testin me (testin me)
All the wrong I've done the Lord still keep on blessin me (blessin me)
Fin'nin to run rap cuz Dr. Dre got the recipe (the recipe, recipe)

Yeah, uh ha, aye Dre
You got me feelin real bulletproof up in this motherfucker
Cuz my windows on my motherfuckin Benz is bulletproof nigga
Cuz my motherfuckin vest is bulletproof nigga
Cuz my motherfuckin hat is bulletproof nigga
But the Doc said if I get hit I might get a fuckin concussion
Better that then a hole in the head right nigga, heh heh ha ha
.................................................. .................................................. ..

Derek B : Bullet from a Gun

" who's number one, bullet from a gun. Is my posse having fun, yes bullet from a Gun, your sure gonna get some".

I'm sorry, I guess I did misunderstand you. I agree with all of what you say here. I feel that uneasiness too, a lot. It was the whole reason I started that racism thread I linked to up there in my previous post.

I'm just glad we cleared it up

It is an attractive notion, yeah. But we really, really aren't there yet, so usually when white people say "I'm colorblind! just like Dr. King!" I am skeptical and figure they just mean they are never forced to think about race, so they don't. I'm not an exception to this. I still find myself going days, even weeks sometimes without thinking about race, which in our current environment I can do because it's not an issue for me in day-to-day life. I'm almost guaranteed to be in the majority in any group of people I find myself in. It's exceedingly rare for me to be the only person of my race in a group. I don't have to think about race. I do sometimes, usually on purpose, or on rare occasions I find myself in an uncomfortable situation because of race. I don't think we'll ever really be "post-racial," and I'm actually not sure it's really the ultimate ideal to never notice differences. But you're right that it sure would be awesome if everyone could only think about race when it suited them.

Oh yeah, that sort of naivety can be dangerous. Personally I admit to be highly conscious of racial difference (and other minority groups) when I first meet people but I seriously resent this consciousness because they're such silly, superficial and meaningless differences; so I make a marked effort to forget and treat all others the same. Inevitably I do forget, because I grow to see everyone as individuals, and the differences, merely minor characteristics. Perhaps my unease at being reminded of those divisions bothers me because I worked so hard to forget them in the first place.

Although I suppose that consciousness is helpful in some ways because it means I am more openly critical and pushy about these things; particularly with representation in media, as I studied that at uni. You won't believe how much I learned so much just from that one class on Spike Lee.

Originally Posted by FineLine

Of course, this was before there was any talk of “reclaiming slurs.” Basically, the way we understood it was that the use of “nigger” was insider talk, and it followed the rules of all insider talk: Parents aren’t supposed to use teenager slang; it sounds stupid. Civilians aren’t supposed to use military jargon picked up from war movies; a vet will let it pass, but inwardly he is going to be thinking, “You haven’t paid your dues yet, kiddo.” And so on.

This is a interesting and useful analogy: the idea of paying your dues to be able to use a term; shared suffering breeds a sort of understanding and comradeship, especially if it was a result of that very word.

INFP 4w5 so/sp

I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.
- Emily Bronte

The name of the game in this is something called confianzahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confianza. Blacks owning the word like that and using it on each other have a natural trust, in that that they are likely not being racist against their own kind.
However, they should realize that others will not understand this. If the word was so negative it was wrong for other people to use it, then it looks strange to turn it into something almost positive to use on onesself. IT makes sense why they do it, but it just looks odd to others.

They wrote the song that way. And they also knew that not all their fans are African American.

If they don't want all of their fans using the word nigger/nigga etc. they shouldn't have put it in the song.

No, no, no. That is a weak excuse. Context is everything. A white person does not recite lyrics in public with the word "nigga". For the same reason you don't recite lyrics with "motherfucker" in front of children or misogynistic lyrics to your mother.

The name of the game in this is something called confianzahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confianza. Blacks owning the word like that and using it on each other have a natural trust, in that that they are likely not being racist against their own kind.
However, they should realize that others will not understand this. If the word was so negative it was wrong for other people to use it, then it looks strange to turn it into something almost positive to use on onesself. IT makes sense why they do it, but it just looks odd to others.

Well, to some. My grandfather was a black man and he could not understand the enduring use of the word. His (biological) grandson used the word once and he got popped soundly on the back of the head for it. He simply didn't allow that kind of talk from any of his kids or grandkids: black, white, or biracial. Distinctions were not made on this score. The rules seemed pretty straightforward to us. In hindsight, it probably seemed critical to him that we did not feel disparate as a family and he would not tolerate the reinforcment of "otherness" that we were bound to struggle to resist from outside forces, let alone from between each other. Perhaps both him and my grandmother being temporarily disowned (5-20 years) by their families for their mixed-race marriage was his warning bell... I am so grateful for his influence.

It's funny because despite his Christian lifestyle he really liked Richard Pryor. Maybe because he felt like he really fleshed out the good, bad, and ugly of the human experience --particularly for a black man? In hindsight, Pryor's public relationships with white women might've drawn his sympathy. He never said so, but I also wasn't aware of that shared experience until I was an adult. But I do remember him saying on more than one occasion "I just wish brother would cut it out with that ugly word." Of course, Pryor was notorious for his swear-fests and he might've been referring to any word at all, but we all knew exactly which word my grandfather was referring to.

Then again, maybe he understood the enduring use of the word --maybe he just really, really disapproved of it. But he always seemed incredulous and frustrated by its use. He was that kind of grandpa that would stand in line behind young black men and say "Son, pull your pants up!"

Point is, assuming even if the word among black culture is universally understood, it is most definitely not universally agreed upon.

"The views of absolutists and purists everywhere should be noted in fierce detail, then meticulously and thoroughly printed onto my toilet paper ply."