Alternate caption: “Look at his tiny baby hands. When did John Cena become a Rob Liefeld character?”

Anyway, I wanted to put a blurb here about how Raw would feature “fallout” from the Money In The Bank pay-per-view, but I don’t think it will. Next week is Raw’s 1000th episode (and the beginning of their three hour show experiment, aka “Brandon’s sorrowful march to death”) so I’m looking for Raw to be one hour of Raw 1000 commercials and one hour of crazy filler. Just kidding! It’s gonna be fun and exciting!

Well, it’s official: John Cena and Dolph Ziggler are money, having captured the WWE Championship and World Heavyweight Championship contracts, respectively, at Money in the Bank 2012 and earning themselves a free pass at the supreme prizes any time in the next year. Ziggler’s already tried to cash in once on Sheamus, but was taken out with a Brogue Kick before the match could begin, and with Cena suddenly in the driver’s seat and current WWE Champion CM Punk reeling from a vicious No-DQ Match against Daniel Bryan, could the time be ripe for a title change? Only time will tell …

John Cena should cash in his contract on Dolph Ziggler, steal Ziggler’s briefcase and cash THAT in to win the World Heavyweight Championship, because he’s John Cena and he can do that.

As always, my 10 favorite comments from tonight’s open discussion thread will be featured in tomorrow’s Best And Worst Of WWE Raw 7/16/12 report. To nominate a comment for top ten consideration, please reply to it with a +1. And hey, before you snark your way through tonight’s show, be sure to read the Best And Worst Of WWE Money In The Bank 2012 report, written by special guest filler-inner Danny Boy Downes of UFC (and UFC.com) fame.

Pre-show discussion questions:

1. We aren’t up to Raw 1000 yet. Will another star from the past show up to emasculate Heath Slater? More importantly, will it be Mantaur?

2. What’re the chances both Cena and Ziggler cash in tonight, so we don’t have to spend the next six months talking about when they’re gonna cash in?

Did anyone check out the first ever Raw? It was pretty decent. The HBK/Max Moon match is pretty campy. Max Moon is Max Mooin, Shawn Michaels comes across as pretty gay with Sherri singing his theme song, there’s Doink doing Doink things, “Mike Tyson” sounding the worst Mike Tyson has ever sounded and the Super Kick is just a setup move with no-tuning of the band. . . for a suplex finisher. Glorious. Also enjoyable from the match: Macho Man saying Michaels THINKs HBK is a legend. Just give it a few years, Macho. Just give it a few years.

I didn’t go back and watch it, but without doing so, all I remember is Bobby Heenan trying to get in the building, and the fact that both Max Moon and Damien Demento were on the show. I also remember that I had no idea who Rob Bartlett was, or how he got that job.

If Raw makes it to 1500, I can see the WWE facts already. It will be something along the lines of, “Did you know: When Raw first aired in 1993, it was only 1 hour long. That makes Raw of today 3 times better!”

I will be highly disappointed if Angry Jack Swagger does not get a Best. He may’ve gotten the short end of the stick with Ryback, but damn if I wasn’t in love with him otherwise. He should never stop growing his hair, start spiking it up and just become Super Saiyan Swagger.

I don’t mean to sound troll-ish but I watched CM Punk make his entrance tonight and said to myself, “Fuckin’ dork.” I do like him somewhat but nothing has really pushed his stock through the roof with me as a character.

I’m gonna be honest- no pipebomb, especially since a lot of commenters would claim I’m going heel- I’m a CM Punk fan. Yeah, he’s not the same CHARACTER he was last year. I assume most of everyone here is a true fan. That would make you understanding of how things go with THIS BUSINESS. But yet you dive into the IWC, but at the same time have become sheep. Once Brandon started this here, everyone was happy about things. Then Brandon, with all due respect, didn’t like things that were going on. With the Slutshaming, balls in purse things…then you all became minions. Now whatever Brandon, Casey, hell, even Alex* say you immediately agree. Now this has become a clusterfuck of people that if they say something dissenting, you get shit on.

You’re not the first person to say that commenters here just follow whatever Brandon says, so maybe that happens. I just know that I’ve been joining in these open threads since they started and I don’t really see it. I disagreed with Brandon and THESTINGER on the slutshaming thing and had a little back and forth, but I didn’t feel like I was “shit on” for it, or feel like I’m not welcome to take part in these threads because of it.

I think the reason a lot of people here have a generally similar outlook on the WWE is that, when B/W started, Brandon’s way of talking about wrestling was pretty unique among internet wrestling columns and forums, etc, (at least in my experience) so those of us who think in a similar way gravitated to With Leather and stuck around. There are no shortage of places to read and talk about wrestling online, but for people that think a certain way, this is the only place.

People don’t agree with Brandon because they post here, they post here because they agree with Brandon. That’s how I see it anyway. Sorry it’s not fun for you anymore. That sucks.

I see where you’re coming from and I understand. But as much as I love being here for these threads I honestly feel like as times go by, people have sheeped out. It’s disconcerting. From when Brandon first started and to now, everything became so damn negative. Punk, Clay- both were praised then someone got tired of their character, then damn near everyone turned. My nephew is a Cena fan, a Sheamus fan, but also is a huge fan of Dolph and Cody. At one point, people stopped cheering for whoever they wanted to. I’d hate for my nephew to become us.

1.This is the internet it does not forget nor forgive anything. So is there a bit of a hive mind going on? Well whenever a group of people interact often with each other, yes, they start taking on similar characterizations. We started off enjoying Brandon and others Best and Worst because it didn’t just go “yeah this sucked because these people were stupid.” There was intelligent discussion on character development and praise for story lines and speculation on how great it could get… and then the product failed to live up to the hype we created, so we get biter. During the course of any given show you have “Event X” happen that completely contradicts “story line Y” creating “Continuity error Z” and 1+ people pick up on this and there comments brings attention to it all while some one else picks up that “X2″+ “Y2″ = “Z2″ and etc. in the program. (Example CM Punks character goes through a 180 while maintaining his face or good guy status).So as time continues there will be more and more of these inconsistencies and we will all default to “this sucks”.

2.Some what along the lines of what Lester has said is true. No matter how smart or how “open minded” people are we all gravitate towards things that align to our personal beliefs. Conservatives watch more Fox News and Liberals enjoy MSNBC. The blog is called “Best and Worst” but we don’t vote on what gets a “Best” or “Worst” that is up to the writer and those tags are pretty much black and white so it invites people to agree with what those labels get attached to not dissent to them.

3. We have formed our own little niche group here in the Uproxx network created our own community. So the social structure of any community is based on the ability of a group of diverse people conforming to common rules and principles. i.e. Red means stop, Green means go…HHH and VKM are ego maniacs and Jerry Lawler likes little children and AJ is “hawt”.

So you are right the Best and Worst community has a bit of a problem when a dissenting opinion comes up, but it is not because we have become sheep its a natural progression of a young society. This is still new so while the social structure is being fleshed out there is a natural distrust for both new comers and dissenting opinion. But hey Funky you want to have a discussion on “Unpopular beliefs in the wrestling universe” I am all for it I’ll start…

I like the Miz and the Big Show
I don’t like Ryback, the Undertaker, and have not enjoyed anything Christian has done since before he returned from TNA and I have NEVER liked Zach Ryder.

The problem with the WWE is not that there are too many “Heels” is that there is NO real “Heel” that is why I liked the Miz as WWE champion so much because he made you want to hate him. Or to use an old movie reference like John Cena we have one Luke Skywalker (Cena) and a roster filled with Han Solo’s and not a single Darth Vader.

I’m sorry you feel that way. I know Brandon and I disagree on a bunch of things: I like Sheamus (I think his match with Bryan at Extreme rules was rad because Sheamus can go out there and get the shit kicked out of him, and that can make for fun matches), I don’t hate Austin Aries, I like TNA (without getting to the weird levels of hyperbole people have now), and there are bunches of other things.

But, yeah, I want to like Punk. I did before, afterall. He’s just doing the same smug snarky babyface every other babyface does and I hate it. I dig sincerity, which is part of why I like Sheamus as much as I do and I liked how DBry and AJ went last night, and all I see from Punk is snark. Combine that with some really underwhelming matches with people I expected better from, and it’s hard to be a CM Punk fan. For me, at least.

I feel that I don’t disrespect those that disagree with me about Punk, but I sure as hell openly make fun of those that disagree in disagreeable or stupid ways. Some folks here get weirdly passive aggressive or obnoxious about how they defend Punk. So, yeah, those people are easy to just laugh at. You’ve never been one, Mr WarmMedina, and I’ve always appreciated your wit and insight. I apologize for making you feel that I had anything less than respect for you. That was never my intent, and I am sure my hyperbole against Punk didn’t help.

But, yeah, there are not that many people here that hate on Punk. It’s really just a few of us. Maybe it’s because I moved around a bunch as a kid but I’ve never had any teams, just teams I could appreciate until they pissed me off. Punk was a team I really liked for a lot of years, but he’s now just pissed me off. I hope he can come back around to being someone I like seeing, but for now I’m getting tired of his smug, snarky, jerk ass. I don’t like the way he’s booked. I don’t like his matches. I don’t like how he will get the fucking shit kicked out of him, like on Sunday night, and come back in ways that look more offensive than what Cena does.

But, hey, maybe Punk can come around! I’ve warmed up to Kane and Big Show, or at least appreciate how Kane is mobile and Big Show has something to fucking do. And I still like Funkasaurus because it is still fun and ridiculous to me. Hell, I’m the guy who keeps talking about how Heath Slater has been having really great matches on WWE’s B Shows and how Husky Harris needs to be back on TV.

I don’t mean this disrespectfully at all, but if you want to go post somewhere that is going to laugh and talk about how awesome CM Punk was for calling DBry “Goat Face” or how he digs crazy chicks you can post at 99% of the internet and get that. But when people here point to those things as being why they don’t like CM Punk, how his matches have not been all that exciting, and lots of other things you have to understand it is because we expect more from this guy because he can be so much better. Until he gets better I’ll continue taking shits on the guy because he’s making millions of dollars and is just taking a roster spot that Seth Rollins would be doing better in doing the same exact shtick.

I think you’re partially right, Duchess. I’m with you on the Miz and a few other guys that aren’t popular. I’ve been on the Tyson Kidd bandwagon longer than everyone, and it makes me happy people are getting on board.

But, yeah, I don’t know. Maybe it’s because I’m a sincere socialist who has peculiar tastes in things (Inception sucked, Mad Men is a show about nothing, A Game of Thrones is trash, Ring Ka King is the fucking best, I like painting toy soldiers and playing Warhammer), but I find myself disagreeing with people here a lot of the time and it’s never that bad. Unless we’re talking about CM Punk, in which case the people who like CM Punk become Jeff Hardy fans and I become a fucking asshole because CM Punk is the worst and if I say it enough you guys might believe me.

But, yeah, other than that I think we’re all pretty cool to everything else. I like the Miz. I like The Ryback. I like Sheamus. I still like Brodus Clay. I think Hunico is just the best. I don’t expect everyone to agree with me on those things, but I think we could all have some fun conversations about their merits.

And Yes Stinger you are right I’d argue most of the hating on CM Punk is a dislike of the current CM Punk character not the wrestler. Both CM Punk “the Straight edge society” and “summer of Punk 2011″ stood for something… now he stands for nothing.

No disrespect to anyone else commenting, first and foremost. The thing I like about this place is that I can pick and choose which comments I read. If I don’t like what someone is selling I know not to bother next time I see that handle pop up. To come into a public forum and expect everyone to be either optimistic or pessimistic is kind of foolish, everyone is going to have their own opinion. That being said I do notice that the numbers have grown since the start and that’s great for the site and the community but I think a lot of them are here just to be here so of course there just going to try to stay in the median. I think the beauty of this is that no matter what kind of person you are you can find someone that shares the same view as you. Personally I think it’s fun to creatively critique everything I see, HOWEVUH, when something comes along that I sincerely enjoy I enjoy discussing that too. So I guess what I’m trying to say is worry about being the best commentator and wrestling fan you can be, in a thread with over 3000 comments we can all find something to enjoy.

The hyperbole of calling people Jeff Hardy fans doesn’t help. Although I admit I don’t really understand that. I’ve never liked him, so maybe I’m missing something– was he EVER really good, and then started to suck? I don’t remember him ever being that great.
So in my head, that whole “people become Jeff Hardy fans” is just a cute way of saying “People still like someone I *used* to like, and now I look down on them for not changing their mind about the guy like I did.”

Whoops, double post…
Also, just an example to understand my mindset, I guess: I’ve always loved Shawn Michaels as a heel. When he turned in ’95 or whatever, I was disappointed. But I didn’t start rooting *against* him. I still enjoyed his in-ring work, and I still liked him well enough.
That’s just a personal difference, I guess. Would I prefer Punk to be a heel? Well yeah, of course. But… he’s still *really good.*

Jeff Hardy fans are people who relate to Jeff Hardy for some deeply ingrained white trash* emotional reason. There are people who like CM Punk the same way and won’t allow anyone to ever say that CM Punk does anything but shit solid gold.

I mean, I relate to Daniel Bryan but if the dude pulled the smug and snarky WWE babyface thing I’d turn on him in a heart beat as well. Maybe not as much as I bet he’d still be having great matches, but whatever.

I mean, people don’t act like Death Magnetic is as good as Ride the Lightning.

*THESTINGER was homeless or lived in a trailer for a lot of his childhood and came from whitetrash and feels the pull of it every day.

Whoops, double post…
Just a personal difference, I guess. I loved Shawn Michaels as a heel in ’94 When he turned face after WM 11, I was disappointed. Face Michaels has always been kind of a pussy, and it got worse as the years went on. But I didn’t start rooting *against* him. I still enjoyed his in-ring work, and I still liked him well enough. I just didn’t feel as cool about liking him.

I think the best way I can put it is this: If CM Punk was a band he’d be a band that made a lot of albums I really loved. Then he released a stinker or two, which happens, but then when I go see him in concert all he does is play shit from the new albums except for one or two of the older songs I like.

CM Punk is Billy Corgan in that case. Everything makes sense now. But I think that Punk’s gimmick hasn’t changed much from “guy who says things you don’t want to hear” It’s just that he hasn’t had much to say but keeps talking.

If Punk was still the Punk of last summer, dropping ‘pipe bombs’ on people, he’d be Triple H. A person can’t ‘speak truth to power’ when he is in a postion of power himself. Pipe bombs now would come across as burying people. And he’d still get shit on here for doing that.
I know this has all been said before, and no one will convince anyone of anything; but the Punk of last summer only works as an outsider– someone who feels like he’s been overlooked, or is owed something. A face Punk was never going to be like that.
…That’s also why I liked the direction that both Eve last week and Show this week were taking– that Punk is second fiddle to Cena (if not others as well). If you want the old Punk back, hope that this train of thought continues.

Just a quick PSA in preparation for next week: Please avoid the Tout Drinking Game during Raw 1000, lest we lose some of the funniest people on the internet to crippling cirrhosis of the liver before the third hour.

I want a “mysterious woman” to come out during the Cena match next week and cost him the match. hen John Cena be all “I don’t want to talk about it lets just drop it” trying to sweep it under the rug. I mean this wouldn’t be the WWE if they didn’t put marital problems on screen for us all to watch right?

Alright, cowboys and cowgirls, please reply to this with any gif requests. I’ll hunt for them throughout the thread, too, but if they’re a reply to this they will definitely get done. THESTINGER loves you, even you Guitarzan.

Has cena ever won a world championship on raw? As much as I don’t mark out for raw title defenses, WWE could pull the trigger and change the title, but have a dirty finish to set up a lame cliffhanger.

a couple of weeks ago I had a dream that I was at a wwe pool party and then we all watched movies and ate candy and I was instructed to flirt with older wrestlers so I too could be a wwe diva and it might’ve been half in my neighbor’s back yard and half in a video game castle, and then there was church for some reason, but that dream still made more sense than the wwe universe right now.

To be fair I am only watching parts of each episode recently, but I feel like every time I walk into the tv’s sphere influence something weird is happening.

i feel like I did mention With Leather to some of the superstars. I remember feeling pretty smug because Daniel Bryan was impressed that I’m getting a masters in history and I got him to sign an autograph for one of my professors.

That was a pretty good Raw overall. I want to say it was REALLY good, but I’m afraid I’m still a bit shell shocked from last week’s episode. I’d rather watch 2 hours of Heath Slater doing shadow puppets than go through anything like that again.