First They Come for the Muslims

Posted on Apr 16, 2012

“Their support of MEK is far worse than any of the pre-emptive prosecution cases,” Downs said. “They are literally engaged in material support for terrorism. But of course they’re not being prosecuted. ... The whole thing is a game. It’s not serious law enforcement. It is political posturing. This will bring the law into contempt. It will bring the mechanisms of prosecution into contempt and eventually it will destroy the legal system.”

“Justice is now justice for corporations,” he went on. “Anybody who interferes with the corporations, who interferes with their profits, who interferes with their rights, will become labeled ‘terrorists.’ They become people we need to get rid of. Judges, politicians and lawyers all feed at the same corporate trough. And that is why their decisions increasingly are corporate decisions.”

Downs holds out a faint hope that it may be possible to force the Justice Department to turn over exculpatory evidence—evidence of a defendant’s innocence that by law the prosecution must disclose to the defendant but an obligation that the prosecutors frequently ignore. He said he is certain there is exculpatory evidence in government vaults that could free many of those pre-emptively prosecuted. Government prosecutors, however, do not willing sabotage their own cases by turning over evidence that would exonerate those they seek to condemn. Downs knows it is a quixotic fight, but he is working to get the undisclosed exculpatory evidence in pre-emptive prosecution cases released to defense lawyers.

“That’s my one hope of getting these guys out of jail—I don’t see any other way,” he said.

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The corruption in the judiciary, Downs argues, is so pervasive that it is probably irreversible in the short run. Already dissidents such as peace activists, environmentalists and outspoken intellectuals have been treated as terrorists. Downs expects soon to see labor organizers and those in Occupy encampments treated as terrorists, especially if domestic dissent spreads. Yet despite his pessimism he has no intention of surrendering.

“I take comfort from organizations like the White Rose in Germany,” he said, referring to the anti-Nazi group that defied Hitler and saw most of its members arrested and executed. “They were doomed almost from the beginning. How long could you defy Hitler before you were rounded up and shot? It appeared to be a futile effort. And yet, after the war, when people went back and began to rebuild the German nation, they could look to the White Rose as an example of what German culture was really about. There were Germans who cared about peace, freedom and tolerance. I’m working now as much for the historical record as for those still in jail.”

“When I was 6,” Mehanna told the court Thursday at his sentencing, “I began putting together a massive collection of comic books. Batman implanted a concept in my mind, introduced me to a paradigm as to how the world is set up: that there are oppressors, there are the oppressed, and there are those who step up to defend the oppressed. This resonated with me so much that throughout the rest of my childhood I gravitated towards any book that reflected that paradigm—‘Uncle Tom’s Cabin,’ ‘The Autobiography of Malcolm X,’ and I even saw an ethical dimension to ‘The Catcher in the Rye.’ ”

“By the time I began high school and took a real history class, I was learning just how real that paradigm is in the world,” he went on. “I learned about the Native Americans and what befell them at the hands of European settlers. I learned about how the descendants of those European settlers were in turn oppressed under the tyranny of King George III. I read about Paul Revere, Tom Paine, and how Americans began an armed insurgency against British forces—an insurgency we now celebrate as the American Revolutionary War. As a kid I even went on school field trips just blocks away from where we sit now. I learned about Harriet Tubman, Nat Turner, John Brown, and the fight against slavery in this country. I learned about Emma Goldman, Eugene Debs and the struggles of the labor unions, working class and poor. I learned about Anne Frank, the Nazis, and how they persecuted minorities and imprisoned dissidents. I learned about Rosa Parks, Malcolm X, Martin Luther King and the civil rights struggle. I learned about Ho Chi Minh, and how the Vietnamese fought for decades to liberate themselves from one invader after another. I learned about Nelson Mandela and the fight against apartheid in South Africa. Everything I learned in those years confirmed what I was beginning to learn when I was 6: that throughout history, there has been a constant struggle between the oppressed and their oppressors. With each struggle I learned about, I found myself consistently siding with the oppressed, and consistently respecting those who stepped up to defend them—regardless of nationality, regardless of religion. And I never threw my class notes away. As I stand here speaking, they are in a neat pile in my bedroom closet at home.”

“In your eyes, I’m a terrorist, and it’s perfectly reasonable that I be standing here in an orange jumpsuit,” he told the court at the end of his statement. “But one day, America will change and people will recognize this day for what it is. They will look at how hundreds of thousands of Muslims were killed and maimed by the U.S. military in foreign countries, yet somehow I’m the one going to prison for ‘conspiring to kill and maim’ in those countries—because I support the mujahedeen defending those people. They will look back on how the government spent millions of dollars to imprison me as a ‘terrorist,’ yet if we were to somehow bring Abeer al-Janabi back to life in the moment she was being gang-raped by your soldiers, to put her on that witness stand and ask her who the ‘terrorists’ are, she sure wouldn’t be pointing at me.”

We are on a thread concerning Tarek Mehanna. As you said Michael, “There is one human nature.” That includes Muslims.

True. We will all be equal, one way or the other. In this modern age, we cannot maintain the idea of ‘lenient for some’ and strict for others’. We will all be judged by the same rule eventually.

You wish freedom for Tarek Mehanna, which means that everything he did you approve of, or at least you are willing to tolerate. Tarek Mehanna is portrayed as Batman here on Truthdig, essentially this portrays him as a type of hero who acts outside the law and yet his integrity makes himk a good guy.

elisalouisa, remember that everyone will be equally free. The same surfeit of freedom that you demand for Tarek Mehanna must be granted to everyone. The toleration that you demand for his actions… you must demonstrate. Oh, but not merely tolerating Mehanna, which is basically tolerating your self. Those who agree with you are rather easy to tolerate!

You must grant the same super-freedom of action and insist on the highest measure of toleration for those whom you are in the hottest disagreement with. When push comes to shove, you wont do it.

elisalouisa, you need to know that this is not a discussion of policy or politics. It never has been! Although it appears to be the age-old struggle of Left vs Right, secretly it is always about only one thing: process. That is my secret but I tell you openly.

I always keep my eye on how we interact. What are rules, if the rules are not equally applied they are not rules at all, and what will be the eventual result?

My authorship on Truthdig has been based on that question, and my assurance comes from recognizing the inequality of process which is an ever increasing problem within the Left. Until the process is equal I keep my own beliefs safely beyond your reach. What is the point of having a real conversation comparing our beliefs if the same rules dont apply to both sides?That is why i always seem elusive about myself.

So now you know all you ever wanted to know about me, and probably more than you wanted to know.

elisalouisa, I will listen to whatever you wish to say about yourself and Tarek Mehanna. I promise to consider it. Thank you for the link to the American Moochers.

After your kind posts, or at least attempts to be kind, I respond. It is not my intention to defend myself or answer accusations, but here is my kindness:
I will be clear and direct without irony. As elisalouisa would say, it is “Michael” speaking and not “Ozark”.

First, something agreeable: People who gain power are not always the best people. For example, it helps if they are good at manipulating others. Manipulating others is not exactly a virtue. Or if they are extremely commited, to the point of ignoring morality, that also helps them win. Its true always. Even among Leftists.

Second point: Notice that in a discussion by you four thoughtful people there is elasticity in the most crucial definitions. Such as… who and what is a Fundamentalist? I have no desire to fix the definition, nor am I asking you to do so. I only wish to underscore that evil qualities which might exist in a handful of people are used to define first the tiny handful, but the elastic definition allows for thousands more to become tied to them, and then millions more are included when it is convenient.

We have the same elasticity in the word “Fascism”, an accusation most serious yet very imprecise(an irresistable combination to all humans). Maybe we can find a few people who love fascism and do evil things. Such people and events provide excitement and urgency, but that emotional urgency and anger inevitably extrapolates towards millions who now are tagged with blood guilt. Your desire for justice against a single person expands to a much wider target: millions.

Third: the nature of our human spirit is revealed to us by two Teachers. One Teacher is the Past. To learn from the Past we must place ourselves in it, see ourselves in it. We can fend off this Teacher with the hope that we are different from our own past or a conceit that we are different from human history. The latter excuse is… inexcuseable. Are you something different from other human beings? No, and neither am I.

Not only are you the same as me, but we are the same as the folks who lived in earliest recorded history. Even if you believe in evolution, by definition it doesnt work that quickly. Evolution certainly does not accelerate like a rocket booster for an individual merely by adopting a Leftist ideology. The conceit of being above it all, watching without being, like a Hegel or a Marx… not even God is that far away. As John Lennon said, “Join the human race!” or you will never sit alone in the defendent’s chair of humanity. You spurn one of the two Teachers.

The second Teacher who explains our nature: Our own concepts. Concepts define what we are and where we are going. There is always a human lesson within, but surprisingly we dont Reflect upon our own thoughts. One’s concept of humanity defines… oneself. We exist in our definition of the Other. Dehumanize the Other and your own humanity is lessened. Why? Because there is only one human nature. We are caught. We can twist and turn, but we are tangled in the web we make.

For example, Leftists often opine: “the masses are easily decieved because they act on emotion, and at present they are decieved by the Right.”

OK, but remember there is only one human nature, and unfortunately you are a human being too. Therefore you must acknowledge that you are acting on emotions, and you will be easily decieved.

Not only that, but history(that spurned Teacher) reveals that folks who know that the masses are easily decieved cannot help but decieve ‘for the ugreater good’. Now… who swears that “the masses are decieved” better than a Leftist? It is a doctrine against Others.

Thus you spurn both Teachers, History and Reflection.

Fourth: I believe that the Left will have its way in the world.

Read my first point and second point again please.

Instead of trembling only at me, dont you tremble at yourself as well?

As to Christian Fundamentalists, I would refer you to two books. One I am currently reading(off and on) “Constantine’s Sword” by James Carroll which captures the spirit of the Crusades with their barbaric insistence that the Cross will see them through to a new world. In “American Fascists” by Chris Hedges the preface is “Eternal Fascism” by Umberto Eco who suggests that fascism is eternal returning in various guises. The Christian Fundamentalists are carrying on that eternal fascism that has been part of Christianity perhaps since Constantine. The “other” Christianity which is in the heart and links with other religions who cherish life and the earth is also eternal and rarely mentioned.

I think that the Christian Fundamentalism body of believers have been seduced into becoming a cleansing army for those who have a radically different end game in mind. Those usurpers are likely closer to being the very thing that the current many front organizations operating under the mantle of God’s Voice would profess to abhor. Remember the old joking phrase “The Devil made me do it?” These organizations are that phrase on steroids. They would destroy our social fabric and replace it with religious despotism.

Current practice of the Christian Fundamentalism leads to the language of expulsion and exclusivity, of extremism and polarization, and to the claim that, because God is on our side, he is not on yours - therefore this kind of fundamentalism, can be dangerous.

Today’s Christian Fundamentalist use pejorative (A disparaging or belittling word or expression) phrases when discussing any social construct of non-Christian Fundamentalism that does not promote their agenda.

Consider the American Family Radio ( An affiliate of United Christians ) that I have mentioned so many times on this site. While researching their body of work, I find a “Prayer for Glen Beck” action seeking divine intervention to promote his political persona as “good” for the cause.

I find endorsing words for Hannity and his ilk and the Conservative issues. As I have said before, it is a 24/7 shill place for Republican Right Wing Conservatism, but they bathe themselves as THE voice for Christian Values.

To understand how they use that voice to promote Republican Conservative politics, you only need to listen to them one day. Hopefully as you listen, you will recall my reporting of the Panel they gathered to discuss members of the Democratic Party and those who support Democrats Values, whether or not they are worthy of Christ’s promise of Heaven , and in their finding, they made the choice for God, Democrats will be barred from Heaven.

I don’t think that just because one is a Christian Fundamentalist that they will automatically be militant. So along that line of thinking Night-Gaunt we seem to agree.

But my argument was that the Christian Fundamentalist movement (not all individuals)is Militant by the very definition of Militant. ” Having a combative character; aggressive, especially in the service of a cause: a militant political activist. n. A fighting, warring, or aggressive person or party.”

My statement was that the Republican Party is dependent on their Christian Fundamentalist base to keep them in office which allows the 1%, who own the Republican Party, to force their ideals on the 99%. Ironically almost none of those that give that support from the Christian Fundamentalist organization is actually a member of the 1%.

Keep in mind that the 1% has other operatives to induce the Democrats to sell out to the 1% also. But it is not the Christian Fundamentalist organization. The list of front groups listed in the link that Night Gaunt gave us is long and it did not claim to be all inclusive. Obviously one of the first things I did was to go see if that list contained American Family Radio, the 24/7 Right wing Republican Front that calls itself Americas Christian Radio.

Some may recall that I have on several occasions mentioned that they were a 24/7 shill for the Republican Party.

Here is my point to this long thread concerning what many call Fascists Organizations. These Organizations are not about helping the people of America. Their Agenda is to subvert the freedom of the people. Nothing Less.

And my claim was that the members of the Christian Fundamentalist Organization that supports the Republican Party and their masters the 1% , aid and abet one group of the enemies of American Freedom, whether they do it thru ignorance or some other agenda the result is the same.

They help the real rulers of the United States destroy the American Dream, so that the 1% can live, off the backs of the “little people”.

Madame will be pleased to note that I have a running argument with a retired
naval officer who blames all economic malaise on the cost of big government and
social welfare programs and yet complains that it’s tantamount to malfeasance
that the USN has to attempt to get by with less than 15 carrier groups.

yet again, I ask what the heck that has to do with people on this site?Is anyone
here suggesting that the US return to having a large military? Who here is
suggesting that we return to having 10,000,000 people serving in the military or
even 5,000,000?

Our endless wars are not nonsense they are real hechro. Such wars do not fit in with “small government. Indeed Night-Gaunt you could say Michael has taken on the qualities of a martyr for it is his goal and duty(as he sees it) to make us finally see the wrong doing of Chris Hedges in using the word “fascist” to describe the
Evangelicals.

Could any one of us peruse the Christian Fundamentalist sites with the intent being to challenge their central beliefs such as Michael does here? Would such a person be accepted and would attention be given to his/her viewpoint? One of the positive qualities of the Left which that the rigid Right lacks, i.e. an open forum.

Any fundamentalist is harmless if they don’t force others to follow them or die or be enslaved. Without the militancy they aren’t a danger. And all Ozark Michael is doing is setting himself up as a Christian martyr for all “Republicans” no matter who the yare or what they do. For him it is the Liberals we should be afraid of. Well they don’t have the power that the Christian Fundamentalist militants have and all their myriad groups of like minded American Nazis and Neo-Confederates and such extremists who like the idea of a theocracy and a corporate run country. (They have more in common among themselves than they have differences.) That is the key but Ozark Michael is blind to that. Unless you think that if you are a fundamentalist about anything you will automatically be militant about forcing everyone else around you into believing the same way. Then we disagree.

That is the line I see as most important in this discussion Cliff Carson.

Thank you Night-Gaunt for the link ( it didn’t work but I found the site anyway so I could read just exactly what is the Philosophy of the “Talk2Action” movement).

It is a very interesting site and is something different from what I consider to be the Right Wing Fundamentalist movement. I will go back and do some serious reading.

Would you allow me to disagree with a statement you made? :

“However it must be remembered that a fundamentalist of any kind is harmless unless they are moving to take over.”

I believe your view is too generous to Fundamentalist unless you are willing to state it about any other group or movement in existence.

The Fundamentalist Christian Right supports the Republican Party, its wars, its 1% special interest legislation, its take taxes from the poor to give to the Rich in less taxes, and one of their appendages ALEC. And many other 99% sacrifices.

My Point: Any organization that supports any group or movement that advocates rule by Special Interest, Corporatists, or the MIC, cannot be harmless.

What I saw in OzarkMichael (at least my opinion) was hypocrisy. It reminded me of Hagee. I picked up a statement of his in a side bar issue in the link you sent me:

“a “doctrine of demons” is anyone who teaches you how to gain access to God by any other means than Jesus Christ.”

I was watching Hagee one day on TV when he made the following statement while hosting a “Christians for Israel” fundraiser.

Hagee said: “Anyone that refuses to support Israel cannot go to Heaven.”

Israel is a Jewish Sate. The Jewish Religion does not believe that Jesus Christ is the Savior nor the Son of God.

Hagee’s statement about Israel and Salvation was in direct disagreement to his statement of “doctrine of demons”. Showed me he is a Hypocrite.

Hagee wants to hurry up Armageddon. He may or may not want to overthrow the Government but his teachings can be dangerous to people who don’t believe like him.

Hitler claimed to be a Christian Fundamentalist. We all know how that ended up.

However it must be remembered that a fundamentalist of any kind is harmless unless they are moving to take over. Are militants and reactionaries that want a theocracy by hook or crook or violence. I don’t see where Ozark Michael fulfills that last important piece. However others do fit it to a tee. And I would recommend Ozark Michael to be careful where he lays down here. He might get up with Dominionists who do want a theocracy ruled by a theonomy. And he has never evinced, that I have seen, to want such a change in our country but others do.

That is why I am careful and precise when I (and others) speak of the growing crypto-fascist wave coming from the very rich and the Dominionists (and their like) are trying to get it here via laws and other means. They are a minority but they have large enough numbers to cause the rest of us, especially other Christians loads of trouble. The site http://www.talk2action.com is a good place to start. (Note: Ozark Michael has a low opinion of it.)

I have to finish my look into your claim and your Actions OzarkMichael and report what I see before I move on. So here is the Gist of it:

OzarkMichael, When I stated that you and Hedges were polar opposites, I was serious. But not as you seem to want to portray it to be. Hedges is very “anti-Fundamentalist Right Wing Christian”, in fact among the -isms, Communism, Socialism, and Right Wing Fundamentalism, he sees the Fundamentalism as the greatest danger to the future Freedom of Mankind.

OzarkMichael, you, by your own words, claim to be the very thing that Hedges abhors. You embrace the Fundamentalist Philosophy as Gods future for mankind. That is definitely a polar opposite. Possibly it might be you who has not read Hedges - you might recall that you insisted that if I wanted to raise my understanding I should read Hedges.

Your problem is that I have read Hedges over the years and now that I have conversed with you for an inordinate time, I think I recognize you for exactly what you are - a Right Wing Republican supporter of the 1%. In fact you are a contradiction just like your chosen group.

Hedges: “Our religious and secular fundamentalists all peddle the same racist filth and intolerance that infected Breivik. This filth has poisoned and degraded our civil discourse. The looming economic and environmental collapse will provide sparks and tinder to transform this coarse language of fundamentalist hatred into, I fear, the murderous rampages experienced by Norway. I worry more about the Anders Breiviks than the Mohammed Attas.”

The likes of Parsley, Palin, Hagee, Mike Evans, and a host of other would be Gods Representatives do not have a clue as to the damage and grief your chosen group has brought to the innocents of this world. And I don’t think you really give a damn. Not as long as all of you can bask in your Fundamentalism raiment.

Here is a best selling book by Chris Hedges: “American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War On America”

Infer from the title what Hedges is trying to say, or read the book yourself.

Chris Hedges is not writing about himself. Nor is he writing about you. He is writing about me and my kind, accusing us of fascism. Half the people who post on Truthdig agree with him and elisaluoisa is one of them. Every now and then Hedges writes an article about it here on Truthdig. It just seemed self evident and i thought everybody here knew the score.

I am not accusing Hedges of fascism, except ironically i might play at saying that.

If you want me to judge Hedges by how you interpret his words in order to reflect his true leanings, would you think it might be fair of me to judge you on what your words indicate to me to be the true you?

Well thats the very thing i was trying not to do, but thats what led to your confusion. It is strange to me that you didnt know what was going on so i hadnt explained it clearly till now. I am sorry if my irony in the past led to confusion.

You and Hedges are polar opposites. So after reading you and him, you may be where you claim you deserve to be

I am so happy that you said that I am the polar opposite of Hedges. Yes i love independence, small government, and liberty. I believe in objective journalism, or at least full disclosure of opinions if journalists want to go partisan. I believe that our different opinions deserve to compete on equal footing in the marketplace of ideas. So yepper I am the polar opposite of Chris Hedges, and proud of it.

As for where I deserve to be… your opinion as a human being is actually valued by me, but the fact that you waste your human element by towing the Leftist propaganda line turns that gold into lead, which has absolutely no value to me.

You seem sort of slow to put things together, or you were only pretending to not understand so you could lecture me later? It takes a smart person to feign ignorance so if that was your game it was fairly well done. You score a point but it wont work again.

When you say “This is Truthdig, the home of Chris Hedges. Dont you read his articles?”,

it was your answer to my statement ” If you truly are a Fundamentalist Christian you cannot be a Fascist”.

It seems that you are implying that Hedges is either both, or a claimant of one, while actually being the other. You go on to write:

“I am a conservative Fundamentalist Christian who lives in Missouri. As for Chris Hedges, since I cant speak for him very well, you will have to read his articles. Google his name with fascism. then his name with Fundamentalism. Hey, google the trifecta of “Hedges Fundamentalism Fascism”. He even wrote a book that combines those two concepts. He is always on the watch to see how fascist the folks like me are getting.”

That sends me back to your earlier statement: “Yes, I deserve to be in the group of people who are accused of being “fascist”. I understand what it means and I understand what the consequences are.” ( your words April 28th 6:57 PM). That was in response to my question of “Who are you?”

If you want me to judge Hedges by how you interpret his words in order to reflect his true leanings, would you think it might be fair of me to judge you on what your words indicate to me to be the true you?

George W. Bush, a self publicly proclaimed Conservative Fundamentalist Christian, (Didn’t you claim to be one of those?) stated that “God wanted him to be President”. Do you think this makes him a dangerous man? Didn’t Adolph Hitler make the same claim? Wasn’t he a dangerous man? And you say that you deserve to be in the Group of People who are accused of being Fascists. Why do you think you deserve to be included in that group?

You know OzarkMichael I get this feeling you are not what you claim.

From Hedges about a year ago:

“Dying civilizations often prefer hope, even absurd hope, to truth. It makes life easier to bear. It lets them turn away from the hard choices ahead to bask in a comforting certitude that God or science or the market will be their salvation. This is why these apologists for globalism continue to find a following.”

You and Hedges are polar opposites. So after reading you and him, you may be where you claim you deserve to be.

From an author:

“One thing the evangelicals are ironically correct in asserting is that we are living in dangerous times. I only hope the end will be of fundamentalism itself and not the world such individuals wish to destroy.”

I said: “This is Truthdig, the home of Chris Hedges. Dont you read his articles?”

Cliff responds:

Explain what you just wrote above. In the meantime I will point out that not all people who claim to be Fundamental Christians are actually Fundamentalist Christians.

Once again, What do you claim to be?

I am a conservative Fundamentalist Christian who lives in Missouri. As for Chris Hedges, since I cant speak for him very well, you will have to read his articles. Google his name with fascism. then his name with Fundamentalism. Hey, google the trifecta of “Hedges Fundamentalism Fascism”. He even wrote a book that combines those two concepts. He is always on the watch to see how fascist the folks like me are getting.

Although i remember your name, I dont specifically recall a 2010 olive branch with/from you. That makes me feel a little bad. If i was ironic or dismissive towards you while you were being nice, I ought to apologize.

“OZ—- go easy on Hedges. he’s a good man who’s seen more of this wicked world
than he can handle. if he writes some nicely worded but not sanely proportioned
stuff, and he surely does, it’s mostly that he’s stressed-out. “

That nails it for me: Hedges is defintely a shill for empire.

Only a fellow shill for whites-uber-alles would receive such slack-cutting praise from the mendacious no-neck troll.

I have been saying for at least a year that Hedges is on the US government payroll, and now heterochromatic has finally confirmed my claim.

OZ—- go easy on Hedges. he’s a good man who’s seen more of this wicked world than he can handle. if he writes some nicely worded but not sanely proportioned stuff, and he surely does, it’s mostly that he’s stressed-out.

I would not have expected such a comment from you. Quite noble, if you will pardon me for saying so.

OZ—- go easy on Hedges. he’s a good man who’s seen more of this wicked world
than he can handle. if he writes some nicely worded but not sanely proportioned
stuff, and he surely does, it’s mostly that he’s stressed-out.

Someone on this thread said you were a Fundamentalist Christian. Do you think that is true?

Before you answer, look back at our comments and responses. I never said you were a Fascist, but didn’t you just recently write the following: “Yes, I deserve to be in the group of people who are accused of being “fascist”. I understand what it means and I understand what the consequences are.” ( your words April 28th 6:57 PM). That was in response to my question of “Who are you?”

If you truly are a Fundamentalist Christian you cannot be a Fascist. But when I say that, I am speaking of a genuinely true Fundamentalist Christian, not one of those who vocally claim to be, but in actions are aren’t.

So do not claim that you belong in the group of people who are Fascists, and then try to blame that someone else - me for example - are the ones who say that you are in that group.

Because OzarkMichael, that would put you in position to violate the Commandment that forbids you to bear false witness.

Phony people are easily recognized when they begin to spout off nonsense. Do you see my words as nonsense or are you just angry because you were exposed?

Who on this thread is most likely to use profanity and nonsense in their comments? Come on now and say it, all the people on this thread know.

As to your and my relations on this site, I feel for you, I would like to have civil discourse with you, an offering I made to you when you first commented on anything I had written. Might have been back in 2010.

You seem intelligent, rest assured so am I. I just do not suffer what I feel is unfounded criticism. And I can get as caustic as anyone - but not profane, like some of the Trolls on here.

If you want to start a new page with me just say so and I will clean the slate.

The Moral fiber of a people is judged by how good the most fortunate of the people treat the least fortunate.

Let us never forget this.

I have often wondered how many of the odd ball characters on the net are one and the same.

While you are doing that, check yourself out. The Moral fiber of political discussion is what you grant to your opposition. Little things such as setting up an even playing field against those you disagree with. You fail to do that. Big things such as ‘humaness’ which you deny to us who oppose you.

You are dehumanizing us by demolishing our individuality and uniqueness, melting us all down into one phony person who wouldnt be much of a person. As I said, check yourself out… check your own moral fiber. There are only so many things we can do here on the internet. Your accusations of fascism and your dehumanizing are about the worst things one person can do to another on the internet.

So yes, “let us never forget this”.

@elisalouisa… as soon as Truthdiggers cross the line, yes i do change how I write. I take what they say very seriously and I react appropriately. You ought to have the hang of this by now.

But these two look to the Christian Right wing as their “voters”. They need votes to continue to operate.

Possibly the most mournful scene is the poor soul who is out of a job, and almost no chance to get one, out of money and means, while members of the 1% are trying to squeeze the last drop of blood from his bag of bones body, and they are blaming him for his irresponsible ways that got him into this fine mess he wallows in. And if it wasn’t for those no good Democrats - its all their fault and if he will vote for them, they will get a war going somewhere, and then there will be jobs for everyone. As Hitler told his people, give me your freedoms and I will protect you from our enemies.

When they found out they were the enemy, it was too late.

The Moral fiber of a people is judged by how good the most fortunate of the people treat the least fortunate.

Let us never forget this.

I have often wondered how many of the odd ball characters on the net are one and the same.

I do try to be truthful, it is the most pure type of discourse. I shouldn’t get caustic as I too often do, but some of the nuts and trolls are too much to stomach.

so full of shit… the attack on Pearl Harbor was due to the US’s objecting to
Japan’s ongoing genocidal campaign against the Chinese and our refusal to sell
the Japanese Empire any more aviation fuel or scrap metal.

you’re clearly a supoorter of genocide when it’sd committing by SOME
people….

and you’re SOOOOO dishonest that your pathetic attempts to define genocide
would necessitate that in any major war between nation-states, at least one of
the parties would be guilty of genocide….

Ozark Michael being a Christian Fundamentalist an a Conservative thinks we are lumping him in with those who would overturn our Bill of Rights. And now he says he won’t contradict that even though he was the one to claimed to be a “fascist” too. So he gets to play the victim here even though most of us an maybe him too would eventually wind up on the long liquidation lists or just be treated as a heretic if his version of Christianity doesn’t conform to the Dominionists. He is one slippery fellow. Close lipped an good at manipulation but bad at speaking clearly. (His choice.) The crypto-fascists are out there but they are just a small section of the 78.5% of Christians in this country. In religion, education, military, gov’t an industry.

I only know Ozark Michael by what he as written. So far he has said nothing that I have seen that leads to any conclusion that he is a crypto-fascist. He just sounds like a Republican who is blinded. He defends them all as if we are wrong about all of them. But now he says he refuses to do anything to prove otherwise. Then that should be it for this run.

It really amazes me how stupidly cynical some of the comments have been—but my vote for the most venally cynical and silliest of all of them is the one where one of the resident no-neck trolls claimed that bombing the crap out of non-whites was never genocide as there was no INTENT to destroy them.

I think you should read my and your posts carefully, I didn’t call you a Fascists, I responded to your use of the word “We” ( OzarkMichael, April 28 at 7:27am ) when speaking of Fascists. Go back and read the comments and responses. I was under the impression that when using the word we , you would be placing yourself in the group. Since you used “We” , was it just an accident or what?

I think you need to comprehend the progression of ideas before jumping into the fray. Go back and read the posts so you can understand what I meant. But you are too hot for justice to do that, so i will admit to something and it will be like waving a red cloth in front of a bull: Yes, I deserve to be in the group of people who are accused of being “fascist”. I understand what it means and I understand what the consequences are. I know what you are threatening me with. Nevertherless I am not budging one inch.

And now hear this: I am not going to entertain your stupid accusations! Not a single one. I am not going defend myself or deny anything. Instead, at every opportunity I will expose your double standard and your hypocrisy.

“The American Jihad against Muslims” is a phrase that
describes the ideas of some no-neck monsters in the US
population but, along with charges that the US is
committing genocide, are foolish things to suggest as
actual.

1. What Party is the Champion of suppressing the freedom of American Citizens? Stripping away our freedoms in the Holy Grail of Wars of Aggression, The American Jihad against Muslims. Who led the charge against Muslims, was it the Republican party, the Conservatives? Didn’t McCain seek the endorsement of the Reverend Rod Parsley who was said to have proclaimed that God put him on Earth to rid the World of Muslims? And wasn’t the Republican darling the V. P. Candidate no less, the one who was said to have proclaimed that God approves of the Iraqi Invasion? Aren’t both of these characters Conservatives?

2. What Party is the Champion of persecuting American Citizens for thought speech? Stripping away our freedoms in the Holy Grail of Wars of Aggression, The American Jihad against Muslims. Who led the charge against Muslims, was it the Republican party, the Conservatives? And isn’t the Republican Party, The Conservatives the Party in power who authorized Torture, Renditions, Secret Detainment, the one’s who decided that we no longer need Habeas Corpus, open trials, and allow hearsay testimony to convict someone? Didn’t the Conservatives adopt this back in the 90’s?

3. What Party is the Champion of practicing Genocide of certain people because of their religion or ethnicity? Stripping away our freedoms in the Holy Grail of Wars of Aggression, The American Jihad against Muslims. Who led the charge against Muslims, was it the Republican party, the Conservatives? Could you remind me who has over seen the killing of over a million people, displacing over five million, leaving a Nation in ruin, contaminated with DU causing a tripling of Cancer and gross birth defects so horrible that a large percent of Iraqi women are afraid to give birth? And while you are doing that let me and others on Truthdig know whether you approve of Invading Iraq?

4. What Party is the Champion of Initiating Wars of Aggression? The Republican Party? Conservatives? What kind of people would publicly support such behavior, behaviors that you have already stated are Fascists actions?

Tell us who you are OzarkMichael, are you a supporter of the Republican Party, a Conservative? Does this mean that you endorse those actions listed above?

I think you should read my and your posts carefully, I didn’t call you a Fascists, I responded to your use of the word “We” ( OzarkMichael, April 28 at 7:27am ) when speaking of Fascists. Go back and read the comments and responses. I was under the impression that when using the word we , you would be placing yourself in the group. Since you used “We” , was it just an accident or what?

Kindly refer to the definition of fascism I provided which is what many Right Wingers believe, i.e., an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization. Who other than a fascist would demand
that a penalty ranging from limitation of political activities, including disenfranchisement, all the way to incarceration be the punishment for calling someone a fascist? That in itself is authoritarian and yes, nationalistic. That proves the point Chris Hedges was making. Would I demand that name callers of the Right be incarcerated for using the word “commie” when speaking of the Left? Of course not.

When there is a symbol such as a cross or flag or even both and the mode of government/church leadership is authoritarian, I would say that organization can be defined as fascist as per the dictionary definition. The sinister fascism comes in when disenfranchisement and or incarceration for such name calling takes place.

much as I enjoyed Gore Vidal outclassing Buckley, he deserved to be chastised for
calling Buckley a fascist. Buckley was not and never advocated turning the US into
a fascist state to oppose the communists.

Curious about Buckley vs Vidal is that at one point Buckley did talk about in order to “protect our way of life” we would need to become a right wing dictatorship aka fascist to fight the dictatorship of Russia. I wonder why Vidal lost? Well it wouldn’t be the first time that the truth teller loses in court. Remember Rock Hudson who sued when he was called homosexual? He won that case too. But we have since found out otherwise.

Sodium-Na was upset that i have called some Truthdiggers “cicadas”. He thinks it is terrible that I do that. I gently asked him:

What is worse… calling someone a ‘cicada’ or calling someone a ‘fascist’?

I think calling someone a “Fascist” is much more serious, it could have consequences for them someday. Thats my thesis. Now elisalouisa has asked me to defend my thesis, and even uses it to accuse me some more. The fact that i understand how calling someone a “Fascist” is a serious accusation with consequences… apparently that alone proves how dangerous I am. She said it proves how dangerous the Right Wing is. Why? I dont know. Apparently, commenting on the noose that they are placing around our necks proves that we are criminals.

I on the other hand condemn their behavior and yes they should be punished in a court of law irrespective of their political position, Nationality, religion, or political Party.

So my thesis was correct.

Every conservative needs to know how serious the “Fascism” accusation is. Every conservative needs to know that their freedom and their very lives could someday be on the line.

How to react today to being called a “Fascist”... Try to defend myself? No, because the person accusing me will use it to shut me up whenever they disagree with me. I will have to concede whatever we were arguing about and never make a point except, “hey! I am not a fascist!” Been there, done that. Its a waste of time and actually encourages more accusations!

How to react to the “Fascist” accusation? Ignore it and keep trying to make my point? Then I am under a cloud, a suspicion, and I look guilty. My attempt to make any point will be ignored. That doesnt work for me. I am a human being. I will be equal to you whether you like it or not.

Here is an interesting option. I recall when William F Buckley was called a “Fascist” 40 years ago by Gore Vidal(the patron saint of Truthdig). The first thing Buckley did was drop whatever he was talking about. Then he balled his fist up and threatened to punch Vidal all the way to next week if he ever did it again. On live TV! The next time Vidal made the fascism accusation(in a magazine) Buckley sued the magazine… and won the lawsuit!

I would advise every conservative person who is publicly called “Fascist” to do the following:

Dont sputter or plead ‘hey I am not fascist’. Dont fall silent. Dont ignore it. Dont try to defend yourself. The “fascist” accusation against you is both a cheap tactic to silence you, as well as a future death sentence(thanks Cliff Carson!). Recognize that you are no longer in a normal political conversation. The other person has stopped having a rational discussion with you and has put a crosshair on your chest. The proper response is outrage! The proper response is a lawsuit!

You arent outraged merely for your own sake. You arent suing them to make money either. You are doing all this for future conservatives, so they can be free to express themselves and play a role in civics like everyone else.

I want to thank Mr Buckley for showing us the way to deal with accusations of “Fascism”. He was always ahead of his time and conservatives everywhere need to follow his example.

“The accusation of “Fascism” demands some sort of action against the ‘fascists’, with penalties ranging from limitation of their political activity including disenfranchisement, all the way to incarceration.”

My question concerns primarily the second part of your comment. The fact that such an accusation as being fascist demands penalties ranging from limitation of their political activity including disenfranchisement all the way to
incarceration.

My time is limited today but I did want to get but one of my concerns clarified as to your views.

Apple dictionary
fascism |?fa sh ?iz?m| (also Fascism)
noun
an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.• (in general use) extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practice.

“Now, a question. Shouldnt “Fascists” be punished? If you wont go that far, shouldnt we at least be restrained for the good of mankind? If not now, shouldnt it happen someday?”

OzarkMichael, certain of the Fascist characters have been punished as you stated - but not all, some of the very worst have received a bye from people like you.

As you said in your comments:

“We “Fascists” are to blame not only for Tarek Mehanna’s undeserved plight, but also for the repression of freedom everywhere, the wars, the genocide in Gaza, and so much more. And just like me, all the other “Fascists” plan on remaining very politically active we are more committed than ever. We hope to gain more influence all the time. There are millions of us. Chris Hedges says that we are getting stronger.”

You chose your fascists to punish to be those who are not of your kind, and look the other way for those fascists who you find to your liking.

It appears that you side with your fascists when they suit your political leanings.

I am not that way. Those who commit murder, genocide, and Empire for profit by your own admission are your kind of “guys”. I on the other hand condemn their behavior and yes they should be punished in a court of law irrespective of their political position, Nationality, religion, or political Party.

Just this week was the very first time that a head of a Nation has ever been found guilty of crimes against humanity in a Criminal Court since WWII.

Yes I think the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan and torture of people, renditions, murder, use of Depleted Uranium, purposefully bombing public water sources and infrastructure should be considered War Crimes, and add to that Vietnam and how about those 50 + incursions by the U S since WWII?

You seem to cheer this shameful behavior, why is that?

For your soul mate on this thread who never reads a link only criticizing them as being wrong (notice the 93% questioned by your buddy):

Copied from page 14 of the Senate Report on Gitmo Detainees report:

Since the Government presumably knows which detainees were captured by United States forces, it is safe to assume that those whose providence is not known were captured by some third party. The conclusion to be drawn from the Government’s evidence is that 93% of the detainees were not apprehended by the United States.

See Fig. 12) Hopefully, in assessing the enemy combatant status of such detainees, the Government appropriately addressed the reliability of information provided by those turning over detainees although the data provides no assurances that any proper safeguards against mistaken identification existed or were followed.

Copied from page 15 of the report:

The United States promised (and apparently paid) large sums of money for the capture of
persons identified as enemy combatants in Afghanistan and Pakistan. One representative flyer,
distributed in Afghanistan, states:

“Get wealth and power beyond your dreams….You can receive millions of dollars helping the anti-Taliban forces catch al-Qaida and Taliban murders. This is enough money to take care of your family, your village, your tribe for the rest of your life. Pay for livestock and doctors and school books and housing for all your people.”

Bounty hunters or reward-seekers handed people over to American or Northern Alliance soldiers in the field, often soon after, disappearing; as a result, there was little opportunity on the field to verify the story of an individual who presented the detainee in response to the bounty award.

Where that story constitutes the sole basis for an individual’s detention in Guantanamo, there would be little ability either for the Government to corroborate or a detainee to refute such an allegation.

I didnt realize that your initial accusation was an invitation to discuss the matter. Thank you for asking me to speak about it. So I should explain what I meant by:

The accusation of “Fascism” demands some sort of action

First, think of history. Historically speaking, what bad things did the fascists do? Well, the Nazis destroyed freedom for everyone within their borders. They started wars of terrible aggression. They committed persecutions and even genocide. Just to name a few of their sins.

It was so bad that there had to be a trial after the war. The trials served as a stern lesson to every German and all mankind that such Fascist actions cannot be tolerated and there will be consequences. There had to be death sentences against the horrific blood guilt. From that point on everyone was been warned, “You will be punished if you do these things.” The death dentences against a few were a warning to the many.

Fascism as a philosophy today? well, its amazing but in America people can think what they want. They can even march for Nazism if they want. But what if they act on their beliefs? Fascist activity(destroying freedom/persecution/genocide/wars of aggression) cries to the heavens for retribution. Shouldnt justice be done? Havent we been warned?

elisalouisa. Look at the title of the article. As you know, it is adopted from prose that describes the expanding circle of fascist Nazi persecution. What is Chris Hedges hinting at? He is accusing anyone who knowingly supports the verdict against Tarek Mehanna of actively supporting a blossoming fascist genocidal activity.

Consider “Fundamentalism Kills”, by which Chris Hedges established blood guilt for American Christian Fundamentalists because of Anders Breivik.

Think of the wars in Irag and Afghanistan, which have been described as fascist wars of aggression.

Hedges claims that his(and your) freedom has been curtailed by fascism. So every aspect of the Fascism is in place.

Before i go any further lets look at exactly what you said:

In that one sentence Michael you have proved Chris Hedges’ contention that the religious Right is fascist and indeed dangerous.

What exactly in my sentence do you find to be dangerous? I can guess, but I want you to tell me so i get it right. I had better put my full sentence up:

The accusation of “Fascism” demands some sort of action against the ‘fascists’, with penalties ranging from limitation of their political activity including disenfranchisement, all the way to incarceration.”

I want to understand what you are thinking so please write soon. I am stuck ‘on call’ so i cant leave the house much. I will probably answer you pretty quickly today.

It appears that these bad guys who claim the Moral High Ground while trampling the rights and wellbeing of the oppressed people, meet the definition of Fascists.

People are doing these things, promoting policies, and supporting events that are in your view clearly “fascist”. It appears that we “Fascists” are knowingly and ever more stridently trampling the rights and wellbeing of the oppressed people.

So, you have plenty of “Fascists” running around perfectly free, and they use that freedom to do fascist things every day of the week. Like in this case of Tarek Mehanna. I have no intention of backing down, you know. It is my enthusiastic support for the guilty verdict that shall keep him in jail(long may he rot). We “Fascists” are to blame not only for Tarek Mehanna’s undeserved plight, but also for the repression of freedom everywhere, the wars, the genocide in Gaza, and so much more. And just like me, all the other “Fascists” plan on remaining very politically active we are more committed than ever. We hope to gain more influence all the time. There are millions of us. Chris Hedges says that we are getting stronger.

Now, a question. Shouldnt “Fascists” be punished? If you wont go that far, shouldnt we at least be restrained for the good of mankind? If not now, shouldnt it happen someday?

Mr Simpson is quite right to question the govt claims about Guantanamo’s
prisoners, a good number of them simply don’t deserve the shit they’re in.

but

• 92% of the Guantanamo detainees had not been al-Qaeda fighters.
• only 5% of the Guantanamo detainees were captured by the Americans
themselves.
• 440 of 517 detainees appeared to have been captured by bounty hunters, in
return for a $5,000 reward.——

I seem to think that the Fascism being practiced by those who would put others on trial for actions they themselves practice, to a degree of magnitude greater than the accused, are the true “bad guys”. It appears that these bad guys who claim the Moral High Ground while trampling the rights and wellbeing of the oppressed people, meet the definition of Fascists. And to exacerbate the evil those Fascists allow “evidence” that may not be truthful , to convict the helpless, while not giving the accused any right to defend himself is what we regular people might call Fascist behavior.

I think the trial of Tarek Mehanna meets this standard.

As an example look at what the professed “Good Guys” have been up to when it comes to blaming the victim. For anyone who really wants to learn the truth about the “Threat” to America of those at Gitmo, you should read from these two links.

There is a lot of material in those links, including the actual Senate Report. The below excerpt is from the Wikipedia Link:

An editorial by the BBC’s John Simpson summarized the study concluding that:
• 92% of the Guantanamo detainees had not been al-Qaeda fighters.
• only 5% of the Guantanamo detainees were captured by the Americans themselves.
• 440 of 517 detainees appeared to have been captured by bounty hunters, in return for a $5,000 reward.

I didnt realize that your initial accusation was an invitation to discuss the matter. Thank you for asking me to speak about it. So I should explain what I meant by:

The accusation of “Fascism” demands some sort of action

First, think of history. Historically speaking, what bad things did the fascists do? Well, the Nazis destroyed freedom for everyone within their borders. They started wars of terrible aggression. They committed persecutions and even genocide. Just to name a few of their sins.

It was so bad that there had to be a trial after the war. The trials served as a stern lesson to every German and all mankind that such Fascist actions cannot be tolerated and there will be consequences. There had to be death sentences against the horrific blood guilt. From that point on everyone was been warned, “You will be punished if you do these things.” The death dentences against a few were a warning to the many.

Fascism as a philosophy today? well, its amazing but in America people can think what they want. They can even march for Nazism if they want. But what if they act on their beliefs? Fascist activity(destroying freedom/persecution/genocide/wars of aggression) cries to the heavens for retribution. Shouldnt justice be done? Havent we been warned?

elisalouisa. Look at the title of the article. As you know, it is adopted from prose that describes the expanding circle of fascist Nazi persecution. What is Chris Hedges hinting at? He is accusing anyone who knowingly supports the verdict against Tarek Mehanna of actively supporting a blossoming fascist genocidal activity.

Consider “Fundamentalism Kills”, by which Chris Hedges established blood guilt for American Christian Fundamentalists because of Anders Breivik.

Think of the wars in Irag and Afghanistan, which have been described as fascist wars of aggression.

Hedges claims that his(and your) freedom has been curtailed by fascism. So ev erything is in place.

Before i go any further lets look at exactly what you said:

In that one sentence Michael you have proved Chris Hedges’ contention that the religious Right is fascist and indeed dangerous.

What exactly in my sentence do you find to be dangerous? I can guess, but I want you to tell me so i get it right. I had better put my full sentence up:

The accusation of “Fascism” demands some sort of action against the ‘fascists’, with penalties ranging from limitation of their political activity including disenfranchisement, all the way to incarceration.”

I want to understand what you are thinking so please write soon. I am stuck ‘on call’ so i cant leave the house much. I will probably answer you pretty quickly today.

By elisalouisa, April 25 at 1:07 pm
Michael 4/24 at 4:07 pm“The accusation of “Fascism” demands some sort of action against the ‘fascists’, with penalties ranging from limitation of their political activity including disenfranchisement, all the way to incarceration.”

In that one sentence Michael you have proved Chris Hedges’ contention that the religious Right is fascist and indeed dangerous.————-
Could you further elaborate on your comment Michael? Prove me wrong if you can.

freedomrings8 the whole point of your diatribe is a dead end. But if you want to get into a name calling battle. Forget it. That’s for the shallow type. An you seem to be by your present actions. But that can change. At least heterochromatic understands, listen to him this time. End it. Not even close to on topic.

Cliff: Folks in the US are like babies—or they try to be, as if they came into geopolitics with a blank slate instead of the history of genocide and its continuance in the colonial settler state as well as around the planet.

The following excerpts from a Paul Craig Roberts commentary certainly is germane to the problem wrought by our corrupt Government. I provide a link to the story below the excerpts. Hopefully it will stop the potty mouthing of our unfavorite Republican Shill - or that other five letter word starting with a Troo…

“Most Americans find the government’s lies preferable to the truth. They don’t want to be unplugged from the Matrix. The truth is too uncomfortable for emotionally and mentally weak Americans.

In contrast, my focus is on the harm to America, on the harm to truth and truth’s power, on the harm to the rule of law and accountability to the people of the government and its agencies, on the harm to the moral fabric of the US government and to liberty in the United States.”

This 9/11/01 conspiracy is a dead end. An we have one right now between heterochromatic & freedomrings80 present circle jerk an name calling. (So adult an responsible an intelligent you two gents are. Now go into your respective corners for time outs.)

You see chimp, you are pretending because you dont
have ONE OUNCE OF HARD EVIDENCE that show a
commercial airliner or witnesses that say it was a
commercial airliner.

You should easily find ONE VIDEO that supports your
imagination. I know you didnt really see it because
you would have said so in the beginning. I was there
chimp, i saw it with my own eyes, i remember every
detail from that horrifying morning.

Unlike you, you didnt see it, i would bet my life,
because if you did you would agree with me.

You won’t even dare answer this simple question, what
color is the plane is this video?

Shortly before 10 am on the morning of September 11, 2001, amid rumors of a fourth hijacked plane headed for Washington, DC, a mystery aircraft appeared in restricted airspace over the White House. There has never been an official explanation for this incident, which has provided abundant fuel for 9/11
conspiracy theories.

CNN has now learned from two government sources that the mystery plane was a military aircraft and has determined that the blurry image on video appears to match photos of the Air Force’s E-4B (discussed here on Wikipedia), a specially modified Boeing 747 with a communications pod behind the cockpit.

“The E-4B is a state of the art flying command post,” CNN explained, “built and equipped for one reason—to keep the government running no matter what, even in the event of a nuclear war, the reason it was nicknamed the ‘doomsday
plane’ during the Cold War.”

9/11 Commission co-chair Lee Hamilton told CNN he was aware of the incident and that it had simply never seemed important enough to make it into the commission’s report. He called conspiracy theories involving government complicity in 9/11 “ludicrous.”

The plane was previously identified as the E-4B a year ago by one researcher on a forum associated with the 9/11 conspiracy film, Loose Change.

CNN acknowledges that, despite its identification, the absence of the aircraft from official investigations, together with the Pentagon’s denial that it was a military plane and the insistence by the Pentagon, Secret Service, and FAA that they have no explanation for the incident, may continue to raise suspicions.