One of the tag lines of the conference: Unleash A Generosity Surge at Your Church in a Sluggish Economy.

The same group that Senator Grassley is hoping will encourage churches to be more financially transparent and thus avoid federal legislation in the area of religious organization fund raising - is actually hosting a webinar to help churches squeeze more money out of their people. And their logo has a pastor's head overlay-ed on top of a pile of money. I'm sure Grassley is going to love that! It would have been better to have him with a fist full of cash in his hand!

Who has ECFA hired for their webinar? Why none other than "bestselling generosity author" Brian Kluth, also described as "one of the world's leading authorities on charitable giving and generosity". Experts in generosity? Can't we just call it what it is: "fund raiser". We've had people for decades know how to "raise funds", but in the church that wouldn't go over well, so we call them "generosity consultants".

Click here to see Brian Kluth's "Maximum Generosity" website where churches can buy his resources on how to get your people to be more generous. Can't be too much longer and we'll see informercials on this.

If we have "generosity experts" marketing their wares to pastors, how long before the SBC seminaries start pumping out PhD's in "generosity"? Shouldn't every mega church have a PhD in "generosity", aka "fund raising"?

Look below at the blurbs from the ECFA website and blast email - while the speaker isn't using Alec Baldwin's "AIDA" approach, it is awfully close: the five I's: Instruct, Inspire, Influence, Involve, and Ignite!

And of course, he'll explain three things you can do, pastor, to increase giving 10% in the next 12 months.

Here's a strategy: how about preach the gospel, convert the lost, and then just let the Holy Spirit grow your church and let them give according to New Testament standards?

Nope, the gospel and Jesus aren't good enough anymore. We need more. We need to pay generosity consultants to tell our pastors how to tell us how to give more money and stop being stingy.

Preach Jesus, love people, teach people to love Jesus, and see what happens.

------------------------

This dynamic webinar will provide your church pastor, staff, and/or committee members with…

Key highlights from 1,500+ Churches on the STATE of the PLATE Research on Giving/Budgeting/Generosity

Valuable insights from 1,400+ Families on the VIEW from the PEW Research on Finances/Debt/Giving

The 5 I’s: Proven Ways to INSTRUCT, INSPIRE, INFLUENCE, INVOLVE, and IGNITE people to greater generosity and increased giving

3 Things Any Church Can Do to Help Increase Giving 10% or More in the Next 12 Months

111 comments:

It a shame when the church needs to do things like this to help them meet their financial obligations.

If God's people would just give what they should and I have come to agree that the tithe is not mandatory, but as believers we should not let an OT law be more generous to His work expressed through the church than we are.

If a person does not like the pastors salary, go to another church, most of them underpay their pastor anyway. Be willing to live without many of the ministries and be willing to be involved more than you probably are in a maga church.

"It a shame when the church needs to do things like this to help them meet their financial obligations."

Perhaps the financial obligations are the problem and not the people.

Ever consider that?

How much did Jesus spend on buildings and salaries and maintenance (much less extravagant housing or transportation)? And yet he was able to spread the good news and develop disciples that were much more effective than the ones we have today?

Today's Christian church brings in billions and what do they have to show for it?

"Perhaps the financial obligations are the problem and not the people.

Ever consider that?"

Absolutely. I think it would be safe to say that the majority of churches do not over obligate themselves but want to be salt and light as an assembly to a very dark world. Therefore the argument about a churches financial obligations being to much is moot. God does tell His people (church) to assemble together and to do it often.

"How much did Jesus spend on buildings and salaries and maintenance (much less extravagant housing or transportation)?"

Apples and oranges. Jesus spent time in the temples (buildings). I am sure he helped give to the upkeep of these buildings. I am sure He tithed.

"And yet he was able to spread the good news and develop disciples that were much more effective than the ones we have today? "

The effectiveness has nothing to do with buildings. I think you know this.

"Today's Christian church brings in billions and what do they have to show for it?"

Please name one church that brings in billions? If you want to lump them all together to make your point then you have to be willing to say that many of the churches today are reaching lost people.

"Perhaps that is the shameful part."

For those which don't, yes shame. For those who do, PTL!

Do you still want to lump all churches together?

What percentage should a church see saved each year to be successful? What about those churches sharing faithfully but seeing few saved, are they successful?

Which churches are shameful and which ones are not? You lumped them all together. Just want to make sure if that is what you want to do.

"If God's people would just give what they should and I have come to agree that the tithe is not mandatory, but as believers we should not let an OT law be more generous to His work expressed through the church than we are."

Interesting.

Less than a week ago, you were chastising those who didn't believe in a NT tithe. You ignored biblical evidence that contradicted your position and eventually stated that you wouldn't discuss it any further because "neither one of us was going to change their mind."

You told me that I was wasting my time discussing it with you, but that wasn't really true was it?

The logic in the last part of your statement is flawed. 23% is what they paid in the OT. Only the very rich could afford to give that to the church in this economy.

That's one of the problems with setting a percentage. 10% (what most preachers are asking for even though it is not the OT standard) is too high for the poor. One of the tithes in the OT went to the poor. And that same amount is too low for the rich.

Perhaps that is why 2 Corinthians 9: 7 states: Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion

As Zig Ziglar would say: God's Way is Still the Best Way

Unfortunately most pastors don't have enough faith in God's people to do what the Holy Spirit is prompting them to do without preaching false doctrine and constant nagging from the pulpit.

"If a person does not like the pastors salary, go to another church, most of them underpay their pastor anyway. Be willing to live without many of the ministries and be willing to be involved more than you probably are in a maga church."

Most churches do not make the pastor's salary public. I wonder why that is?

Perhaps it is for the same reason that most of them preach an unbiblical NT tithe. Because they believe that if they did otherwise, less money would come in.

Your reasoning is beginning to remind me of the philosophy of our bloated federal government.

1) Money is the answer to all problems.2) They never have enough.

Jesus set the example with almost no money and a handful of ordinary men who had a great deal of faith.

"Less than a week ago, you were chastising those who didn't believe in a NT tithe. You ignored biblical evidence that contradicted your position and eventually stated that you wouldn't discuss it any further because "neither one of us was going to change their mind.""

At that time it was a true statement. I am humored that you find fault now, I guess it is more than the topic you dislike.

"You told me that I was wasting my time discussing it with you, but that wasn't really true was it?"

At the time you were. Since you like grace giving so much, do you let that apply to grace living?

"The logic in the last part of your statement is flawed. 23% is what they paid in the OT. Only the very rich could afford to give that to the church in this economy."

There's probably a non spiritual reason that this is true. It is possible that many people are living above their means.

So where is the line drawn financially so that a person could give 23%? That is your position right? At what level of income is a person unable to give 23%?

Is this really an income matter? A spending / budgeting wrongly matter? If so, then it has nothing to do with wealth but good stewardship.

Some anon, maybe you, criticized someone for getting 5000 back in taxes. so to some anon, budgeting is critical.

"That's one of the problems with setting a percentage. 10% (what most preachers are asking for even though it is not the OT standard) is too high for the poor. One of the tithes in the OT went to the poor. And that same amount is too low for the rich."

Maybe you are right that God's grace (that is how we are to give, right?) doesn't extend to the poor to allow them to give more by grace than by law. I just disagree.

"Perhaps that is why 2 Corinthians 9: 7 states: Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion"

If a man's heart is fixed on Jesus would he give by grace something greater than what the law requires? I think so. Isn't that the power of grace? God's grace on Calvary exceeded the law.

"As Zig Ziglar would say: God's Way is Still the Best Way"

Glad to see you following men now. TFPIC

And God's way is grace, that which is greater than the law.

"Unfortunately most pastors don't have enough faith in God's people to do what the Holy Spirit is prompting them to do without preaching false doctrine and constant nagging from the pulpit."

God's people, I guess you included, don't have enough faith to express a grace greater than the law. Therefor, what these preachers are doing is asking for the people to be more gracious.

I'm sorry the grace you express and experience is less than the law demands of us. really, I am.

"Absolutely. I think it would be safe to say that the majority of churches do not over obligate themselves but want to be salt and light as an assembly to a very dark world. Therefore the argument about a churches financial obligations being to much is moot. God does tell His people (church) to assemble together and to do it often."

This is poor thinking Jon.

You make an assumption with zero evidence, and then declare the point moot. We are once again back to you making a dogmatic statement and then not being able to back it up with anything other than a feeling.

Check the Barna web site. Their latest survey shows that churches spend the vast majority of their resources on salaries and buildings (over 75%).

And yes it is possible to assemble together without a special building Jon. The first century church did it.

Show me where Jesus, the disciples, or the first century church (our NT examples and foundation) built special buildings for worship (or had a head pastor for that matter), and the church members were asked to pay for it all and you will have made your point.

But I can save you some time. It didn't happen until the 3rd century when Christianity became accepted in Roman culture and the church started taking in the pagan culture of the day.

That's where we got off track and how we ended up in the mess we are in today.

"Absolutely. I think it would be safe to say that the majority of churches do not over obligate themselves but want to be salt and light as an assembly to a very dark world. Therefore if the financial obligations are the problem and not the people the argument about a churches financial obligations being to much is moot. God does tell His people (church) to assemble together and to do it often."

"There's probably a non spiritual reason that this is true. It is possible that many people are living above their means."

It could also be because we have a 10% unemployment rate, $4.00 a gallon gas, inflation, almost no economic growth, jobs being shipped to China, a government gone wild with spending, housing market bust, etc. Should I go on?

Oh, and how about a huge tax burden that claims a third of our income.

Perhaps that explains all the begging and tithe preaching and generosity consultants.

Why is the sermon always about more giving and never about less spending by the church?

I wish this was an april fool joke. i am simple-minded enough believe that when God saves a person it is up to that individual to determine what he or she wants to give. I remind my church often I am not a fund-raiser. In my opinion a Gospel preacher should contaminate the message by always begging for more money. Bigger buildings and celebrity preachers are not advancing God's kingdom.

"So where is the line drawn financially so that a person could give 23%? That is your position right? At what level of income is a person unable to give 23%?"

That would be different for each individual.

23% was the amount that the OT Israelites paid in tithes. It was used to run their civil government, pay the Levites, pay for mandatory religious festivals and help feed the poor.

NT tithing advocates instead of using the tithe to help the poor want to further damage them by taking 10% of their income. Sadly that money is sometimes used so that the pastor can fly in a private jet. 75% is used for salaries and buildings.

Not coincidentally, most Americans pay close to that same amount to run our government.

"Apples and oranges. Jesus spent time in the temples (buildings). I am sure he helped give to the upkeep of these buildings. I am sure He tithed."

You are right about apples and oranges. Jesus did not meet in a "church building" that was paid for by the members like we do today. Neither did the disciples or the first century church. It happened when the church started importing elements of the pagan culture in the 3rd century. And you are suggesting that is model we should follow instead of Christ's?

Christ occasionally preached in the temple but didn't beg for money so that it could be maintained. It was run by the hypocritical pharisees.

As a matter of fact, I seem to remember him running the money changers out with a whip.

There is zero evidence for your last two statements. In fact, there is evidence to the contrary.

"What percentage should a church see saved each year to be successful? What about those churches sharing faithfully but seeing few saved, are they successful?"

Still don't get it do you? God never intended for the church to spend 75% of all giving on salaries and buildings, and then have the temerity to try to shame people into giving more with false doctrine.

The "View of the Pew" is people sitting out there with their pockets turned inside out. That my friend is the "State of the Plate"! As the old saying goes, "you can't get blood from a turnip" no matter how much squeezin' you do.

"Well, let me put it this way. I didn't argue for a week with the person who showed me the evidence before changing my mind (like you did) and then not acknowledge that they were right and I was wrong."

You were right, I was wrong. I feel better.

Should we give less under grace than what was required under law? Not looking for an answer just throwing a thought out there in the form of a question.

"NT tithing advocates instead of using the tithe to help the poor want to further damage them by taking 10% of their income. Sadly that money is sometimes used so that the pastor can fly in a private jet. 75% is used for salaries and buildings."

"Still don't get it do you? God never intended for the church to spend 75% of all giving on salaries and buildings, and then have the temerity to try to shame people into giving more with false doctrine."

I get it completely. You are speaking of how many churches?

How many are using 75% on what you claim? Any source out there you can point us to? I truly would like to see these figures.

Not the church I pastor. We are at 32.8% for salaries and nothing on buildings except utilities and some upkeep. With just under 3% for that.

"If God's people would just give what they should and I have come to agree that the tithe is not mandatory, but as believers we should not let an OT law be more generous to His work expressed through the church than we are."

Jon, you put Bill Clinton to shame. I have nevr seen such blatent changing of positions in my entire life. I am now ready for you to say you have always thought this.

You make an assumption with zero evidence, and then declare the point moot. We are once again back to you making a dogmatic statement and then not being able to back it up with anything other than a feeling."

Anon, I do not know who you are, but you have Jon pegged.

Jon is used to being believed because he has a title and stands on a stage. This is why it is so very dangerous to follow men instead of Christ. You might not even realize what a phony you are following if you dare not question everything they teach. But then most don't study enough to be able to do it and guys like Jon like that.

House church leader Ken Eastburn commented on the findings pointing out the hypocrisy of church leaders, "No church leader would ever say that their buildings are more important than their people or the mission of God, but that is exactly what their behavior communicates."

The study, conducted among 1,114 senior and executive pastors during the fourth quarter of 2009, found that only 3% of churches were making changes related to their facilities in an effort to adapt to the economy and save money. The most common change was reduced spending (21% of churches) while a very close 18% have also made cuts to staff. Another 4% reported reduced giving to missions or missionaries.

"Anon - whoever you are. You are not contending for the faith by arguing over me changing my position."

Of course Anon is. Anon is proving how shallow and arrogant pastors like you are. Anon is contending for the faith by pointing this out on many threads. People must be warned to be Bereans and not follow guys like you.

In fact, how do we know you have not only changed your position on this blog? Can you point us to a sermon where you have told the church where you pastor that the tithe is for the OC and the NC is about grace giving...and to the needy and not necessarily to a building?

show us proof. You have been a long time agitator here rebuking people for "touching thine anointed" as if that applies to anyone with a title in the NC.

The point is that "Grace giving" is none of your business. that is the rub of not teaching a tithe. YOU lose control and must depend on the Holy Spirit.

If the Holy Spirit leads me in grace giving to someone in need (and does often) then that money does not go to a pastor salary or building that month or week. That is what being led by the Holy Spirit means.

That someone in need might be a missionary on the field or a single mom struggling.

Grace giving could mean the pastor has to get a real job because people are so immersed in the Word and being led by the Holy Spirit they are now teaching others. They are no longer proud of their building or programs. Which can easily become idols.

The Body is fully functioning with each member exercising a spiritual gift. And baby believers are seeing the spirit at work in the Body of Christ and growing.

The problem with this spiritual model is the guys who want control over others, loses it. Best to keep people from growing spiritually so you can define "grace giving" for them which benefits you instead of the Holy Spirit.

As the pagans said of the early Christians: Look at how they love one another and take care of one another.

They are not saying that today of us. They are pointing to our fat pastors who tell single moms to "ante" up so they can please God. All the while they complain about how poorly they are paid.

I was the one that pointed out that getting $5,000 back in a tax refund was poor tax planning. I was merely stating a fact. As Dave Ramsey and any other financial planner would tell you, you should monitor your tax situation throughout the year and only pay what is needed. The particular poster was trying to spiritualize how he had pledged $5,000 to his church and then learned he was receiving a $5,000 tax refund. This is nothing but spiritual hocus pocus. A wise man would have saved the money and given it from his savings not from a tax refund.

Jon EstesI just want to thank you for continuing to hang with us despite the tone of some of your critics here. It’s not whether we agree or disagree that really matters; it is, rather that we study and learn the truth of God’s word together. At least we can all agree that Jesus is Lord! And thank Him for His sacrifice on the cross to save you and me from the penalty our sins justly deserve. Love you brother.

"God's people, I guess you included, don't have enough faith to express a grace greater than the law. Therefor, what these preachers are doing is asking for the people to be more gracious.

I'm sorry the grace you express and experience is less than the law demands of us. really, I am."

My response: we need some "circumcision consultants" who will counsel men on how they can go beyond the law, and get just a bit more circumcised. Why stop at just the OT circumcision, let's give a little more.

"I just want to thank you for continuing to hang with us despite the tone of some of your critics here. It’s not whether we agree or disagree that really matters; it is, rather that we study and learn the truth of God’s word together. At least we can all agree that Jesus is Lord! And thank Him for His sacrifice on the cross to save you and me from the penalty our sins justly deserve. Love you brother."

Thanks Brother. It is good to discuss things rationally, even if there is a disagreement.

I am trying to figure out how changing my position on tithing is now something to try and fight about.

"My response: we need some "circumcision consultants" who will counsel men on how they can go beyond the law, and get just a bit more circumcised. Why stop at just the OT circumcision, let's give a little more."

The way we are to give is spoken of in the NT and is shown to be an act of grace. The issue of circumcision is also spoken of in the NT and following its NT standard is an act of grace. no need for the knife because there is something greater that needs circumcised...the heart. (Col. 2)

I have not enjoyed the petty back and forth here in these comments. Much of it sounds like a private argument.

If you say that grace is giving more than a tithe, that is still "Jesus +" position which is inherently heretical. Grace alone is sufficient. Accept it, turn away from sin, and live under the Grace offered by the sacrificial love of God for all humankind. Then live a life of love in the deeds you do. Jesus in Matthew 25 did not mention giving to or through the church, but did suggest that love for the imprisoned, the poor, the hungry, those needing clothes is necessary, because those are Jesus in the flesh. That is where we need to be generous -- with time, money and talent.

Whatever we give to an organization to support its operations is not sufficient unless those operations are primarily focused on those Jesus mentioned in Matt 25. Paying a pastor, building a building, utilities, etc., are not the works that will please God, if we are not doing more than that for the least of his children.

"I have not enjoyed the petty back and forth here in these comments. Much of it sounds like a private argument"

Dealing with the false teaching on GRACE from a pastor is not petty or private. It is necessary. Jon teaches publicly in his church and here on this blog. He has a title of "pastor" which we all know impresses the impressionable.

Some of us have been through his parsing of certain doctrinal concepts before on other blogs long ago. We are simply warning folks and trying to get them to see what he is really saying or NOT saying.

once, a few years ago, Jon held to a certain position doggedly on Grace to You...rebuking and insulting people like crazy over it. Then he went back and erased all his comments when folks were pointing people to them on other blogs.

That is what we are dealing with. If you go back and read what Jon has said on this thread, you will see he is still teaching the law! He is just hiding it behind clever parsing.

Ya gotta wonder how many times we have to say you are perfectly free to give a tenth of your income or as you like to say a tithe. No one here is against you giving whatever. We are only saying believers are to give according to what the Lord has instructed them to give. Some should be giving far more than a tenth; others should not be giving anything at all. Why is it wrong for believers to seek the Lord’s will?

Who has said it was wrong to seek the guiding of the Holy Spirit in giving? Most of us have been teaching just that while Jon is presenting 10% as the baseline PLUS what he calls grace giving.

In the new covenant, there are no baselines. Where do we get the 10%? Where is that from? Abraham and the spoils of war? It is certainly not the tithe system in the OC. It is that sort of thinking that hinders being led by the spirit in giving.

And that is truly between the person and the Holy Spirit. That is why greedy "generosity consultants" are such an insult to the Body of Christ. They attempt to replace the Holy Spirit.

If they really believed what they were saying, they would not take a cut. They would do it for free. :o)

Yes, I know Jon's history. And it is clear that I disagree. I am one who has practiced tithing to the church, and taught it as a guideline, in churches that pay reasonable staff salaries and have reasonable buildings, and, more importantly, send 20% to missions endeavors outside the congregation and also do missions activities within the church. Those include ESL classes, food pantry, clothes closet, a benevolence or Samaritan fund, recruitment of members to tutor in the local school or work at an inner city mission center, etc.

But a tithe is a guideline at best, and our standing with the church should not be based on our giving to the church, but on our commitment to carrying out the instructions given to us by Jesus, including what he had to say in Matthew 25.

"Some should be giving far more than a tenth; others should not be giving anything at all."

And that is NOT for us to judge. That is a whole other point.

I have a wealthy friend who has gone through agony and prayer over this but he has stopped giving to the institutional church. He gave for 30 years and his largesse was depended upon by the institution.

But he has been convicted that it is wrong to prop up a system that does so little for those in need within that body. The last straw for him was the 200,000 dollar sound system purchased when people in the church were losing their jobs in this bad economy.

He has directed his giving through prayer to certain organizations that exist to help others that are very accountable for the dollars, to individuals in need and direct to missionaries on the field and Christians in poor countries.

He is considered a very great sinner by the church leadership because he no longer gives the big amount to support the local church.

I reminded him that Paul took up a collection from believers all throughout Macedonia for the persecuted believers in the Jerusalem Body. That was not giving to the local church. Those who met in the local church were taking care of one another already. Not building fancy buildings, getting new rugs, paying a pastor salary.

The "tithe" is 23%. Is that the guideline you are talking about? Or, the made up 10% that has no basis as the OC "tithe".

This another point that is important. People really believe the tithe was 10% because they were taught that untruth.

The "baseline" is the Holy Spirit and what He directs. Barnabas was guided to sell his estate. It is good he did not start with the "tithe" baseline. On the other hand, the Greek widows gave nothing but received...as it should be.

"Yet, I was glad to tell you, you were right since you mentioned it had not been said to you yet. I hope it helped."

So, why did I need to mention it?

When I was taught this lesson, I thanked the person right away and gave up my mistaken belief without trying to continue to hold onto it with rationalizations like "we should give more under grace than we do by the law." By the way, the law was 23% not 10%. Also the law required food (livestock and grain) not money. And it was given to the poor/widows, levite priests who weren't allowed to own anything and mandatory festivals.

The reason I mentioned it was not to help me but to help you. We all need to learn to admit when we are wrong and be grateful not resentful.

Just not sure why it's like trying to pull teeth to get you to do the ordinary decent thing.

I accept your admision although I'm still not sure that you are sincere since you write a mocking post later calling my comment sad.

I think it is sad when you can't take anything a pastor tells you at face value and can't trust his sincerity.

Last time I checked both covenants were still Scripture. Has that changed?

April 7, 2011 12:04 PM

Depends on what you mean by saying it is "scripture".

Do you mean the OC is binding on us? Do you interpret the OC as rules for today or pointing us to Christ?

Check this out:

10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[e] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”[f] 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit. Galatians 3

Or this:

12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate[a] the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit. 2 Corin 3

There is much more, but I hope you are starting to get the picture. perhaps your veil has not been taken away, yet.

"Will you tell your church? Will you apologize to them for teaching them the doctrine of 10%?"

You are kidding right?

Yeah, I can see Jon getting up on the platform and telling the sheep that what he's been teaching them for 10 years about giving is wrong.He's reluctant to admit it here - where everyone saw it happen.

And now he's trying to save face by going from 10% to more than 10% or is it 23%? He never said.

"There is much more, but I hope you are starting to get the picture. perhaps your veil has not been taken away, yet."

Perhaps your own spiritual arrogance is blinding you. There's a reason Jesus quoted Old Testament verses. Other writers of Scripture did the same. Why? Because the Old Testament is still relevant. Do we live under it? No. Are we free from the law? Yes. Thus, should we ignore it? I hope not. But, no doubt your arrogance refuses to allow to acknowledge this.

Perhaps your own spiritual arrogance is blinding you. There's a reason Jesus quoted Old Testament verses. Other writers of Scripture did the same. Why? Because the Old Testament is still relevant. Do we live under it? No. Are we free from the law? Yes. Thus, should we ignore it? I hope not. But, no doubt your arrogance refuses to allow to acknowledge this.

April 7, 2011 2:56 PM

Are you familiar with what Jesus was quoting from the OT and why?

The OT is relevant because we can know the Attributes of God, Creation narrative, How sin entered the world, How God worked through His chosen people who were horrible sinners constantly turning their backs on Him and most importantly, in that it points us to Messiah Who redeems us.

"Do we live under it? No. Are we free from the law? Yes."

See, you admit the point I was making all along. Well done!

"Thus, should we ignore it? I hope not."

How are we ignoring it? It is all about context. You cannot lift out Leviticus and tell me it applies to me today.

But we can look at how corrupt the priests were in the OC and map it to many in the leadership of the Body of Christ, today. Some things do not change.

Can you possibly have a contextual, hermeneutical conversation? Is that possible for you or are you only capable of soundbites you heard from stage?

The word "tithe" means a tenth. There were three "tithes" in the OT, two collected every year, and one collected every third year, so that the total of the thitheS was 23.33%. However, that was not a tithe of all income, but of crops. There is evidence for a tithe of booty, but sometimes the requirement seems to be that all of it be dedicated (sometimes by its destruction!). There is also evidence for a requirement to give a portion of the increase of the herds.

So "a tithe" means a tenth or 10%. Complying with the OT law on tithings is another matter entirely and does not quite fit our modern, non-agricultural culture and economy.

That said, a "tithe" is a reasonable guideline as a starting point for giving for those who can spend at will for luxury automobiles and McMansions. One must realize, however, that the tithe in the OT had exemptions for a lot of people, particularly widows and the poor.

If all the church members who earn $50,000 a year or more gave a tenth to the church, that church would be awash in money. Of course, most would use it to hire more staff, pay the pastor more money, and make the country club look like a poor house by comparison.

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About Me

We're small, insignificant, and harmless. But we have a loud, piercing bark that seems to annoy those in mega churches the most. Not Kool-Aid drinkers, only fresh, filtered water, please; with Grape or Cherry flavoring from Walmart. "Let him alone; God hath bidden him to speak:"