Israel is playing a big role in India’s escalating conflict with Pakistan

By Robert Fisk
February 28, 2019
Originally published in the Independent

As war breaks out between India and Pakistan,who would have thought that Israel
was hovering in the background,cashing in on the deadly conflict?

When I heard the first news report, I assumed it was an Israeli air raid on Gaza. Or Syria. Airstrikes on a “terrorist camp” were the first words. A “command and control centre” destroyed, many “terrorists” killed. The military was retaliating for a “terrorist attack” on its troops, we were told.

An Islamist “jihadi” base had been eliminated. Then I heard the name Balakot and realised that it was neither in Gaza, nor in Syria – not even in Lebanon – but in Pakistan. Strange thing, that. How could anyone mix up Israel and India?

Well, don’t let the idea fade away. Two thousand five hundred miles separate the Israeli ministry of defence in Tel Aviv from the Indian ministry of defence in New Delhi, but there’s a reason why the usual cliche-stricken agency dispatches sound so similar.

For months, Israel has been assiduously lining itself up alongside India’s nationalist BJP government in an unspoken – and politically dangerous – “anti-Islamist” coalition, an unofficial, unacknowledged alliance, while India itself has now become the largest weapons market for the Israeli arms trade.

Not by chance, therefore, has the Indian press just trumpeted the fact that Israeli-made Rafael Spice-2000 “smart bombs” were used by the Indian air force in its strike against Jaish-e-Mohammed (JeM) “terrorists” inside Pakistan.

Like many Israeli boasts of hitting similar targets, the Indian adventure into Pakistan might owe more to the imagination than military success. The “300-400 terrorists” supposedly eliminated by the Israeli-manufactured and Israeli-supplied GPS-guided bombs may turn out to be little more than rocks and trees.

But there was nothing unreal about the savage ambush of Indian troops in Kashmir on 14 February which the JeM claimed, and which left 40 Indian soldiers dead. Nor the shooting down of at least one Indian jet this week.

India was Israel’s largest arms client in 2017, paying £530m for Israeli air defence, radar systems and ammunition, including air-to-ground missiles – most of them tested during Israel’s military offensives against Palestinians and targets in Syria.

Israel itself is trying to explain away its continued sales of tanks, weapons and boats to the Myanmar military dictatorship – while western nations impose sanctions on the government which has attempted to destroy its minority and largely Muslim Rohingya people. But Israel’s arms trade with India is legal, above-board and much advertised by both sides.

The Israelis have filmed joint exercises between their own “special commando” units and those sent by India to be trained in the Negev desert, again with all the expertise supposedly learned by Israel in Gaza and other civilian-thronged battlefronts.

At least 16 Indian “Garud” commandos – part of a 45-strong Indian military delegation – were for a time based at the Nevatim and Palmachim air bases in Israel. In his first visit to India last year – preceded by a trip to Israel by nationalist Indian prime minister Narendra Modi, Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu recalled the 2008 Islamist attacks on Mumbai in which almost 170 civilians were killed. “Indians and Israelis know too well the pain of terrorist attacks,” he told Modi. “We remember the horrific savagery of Mumbai. We grit our teeth, we fight back, we never give in.” This was also BJP-speak.

Several Indian commentators, however, have warned that right-wing Zionism and right-wing nationalism under Modi should not become the foundation stone of the relationship between the two countries, both of which – in rather different ways – fought the British empire.

Brussels researcher Shairee Malhotra, whose work has appeared in the Israeli newspaper Haaretz, has pointed out that India has the world’s third largest Muslim population after Indonesia and Pakistan – upward of 180 million people. “The India-Israel relationship is also commonly being framed in terms of a natural convergence of ideas between their ruling BJP and Likud parties,” she wrote last year.

Hindu nationalists had constructed “a narrative of Hindus as historically victims at the hands of Muslims”, an attractive idea to those Hindus who recall partition and the continuing turbulent relationship with Pakistan.

In fact, as Malhotra pointed out in Haaretz, “Israel’s biggest fans in India appear to be the ‘internet Hindus’ who primarily love Israel for how it deals with Palestine and fights Muslims.”

Malhotra has condemned Carleton University professor Vivek Dehejia for demanding a “tripartite” alliance between India, Israel and the US – since they have all suffered “from the scourge of Islamic terrorism”.

In fact, by the end of 2016, only 23 men from India had left to fight for Isis in the Arab world, although Belgium, with a population of only half a million Muslims, produced nearly 500 fighters.

Malhotra’s argument is that the Indian-Israeli relationship should be pragmatic rather than ideological.

But it is difficult to see how Zionist nationalism will not leach into Hindu nationalism when Israel is supplying so many weapons to India – the latest of which India, which has enjoyed diplomatic relations with Israel since 1992, has already used against Islamists inside Pakistan.

Signing up to the “war on terror” – especially “Islamist terror” – may seem natural for two states built on colonial partition whose security is threatened by Muslim neighbours.

In both cases, their struggle is over the right to own or occupy territory.

Israel, India and Pakistan all possess nuclear weapons. Another good reason not to let Palestine and Kashmir get tangled up together. And to leave India’s 180 million Muslims alone.

80 thoughts to “Israel is playing a big role in India’s escalating conflict with Pakistan”

Meantime, one thing is for certain, for real. The Islamists, in their twisted secular belief that it’s God’s will for them (the true believers) to conquer/kill the idolaters and possess India as their divine raison d’être, will never just fade away. Because for them to fail in carrying out their one true God’s order is unacceptable, unimaginable, sacrilegious.

The existence of India / Hindus / Vedas / Sanatana dharma is a denial of their one true God’s will and the more time passes the more frustrated and psychotic they become.

Call it karma, call it irony, call it what you will but instead of Islam possessing India, it’s actually India which possesses Islam, and the Islamists.

From the article:
“Israel itself is trying to explain away its continued sales of tanks, weapons and boats to the Myanmar military dictatorship – while western nations impose sanctions on the government which has attempted to destroy its minority and largely Muslim Rohingya people.”

Israel has a history of selling weapons to sanctioned countries, including Russia. Israel sells un-assembled drones which are re-assembled in Russia. Israel’s decision to sell weapons to Russia is a display of military cooperation between Israel and Russia. Israel gets money from these sales and this money supports their legal & illegal arms business.

“Israel’s arms trade with India is legal, above-board and much advertised by both sides.”

Israel – as usual – is allowed to sell all comers… all sides. The more wars/conflicts globally… the richer Israel becomes. Israel WANTS/NEEDS wars!!!

Pat,
Let’s not forget that much of Israeli military technology comes from the Americans either as outright gifts, stolen, or purchased using American dollars granted via foreign aid at about 3-4 billion per year. Israel also sells this military tech to the Chinese or anyone else for that matter. Of course along with the war equipment the computers have back doors because the tribe wants to know whats going on. I have heard tell that all Intel master computer chips have back doors for the Chosenites entertainment.
This article fits right into the Article by Hudson and Roberts about Putin and the American (Jewish) monetary rape of the Russian people. You see, except for the “State” of Israel, as far as the international Jewish bankers are concerned, there are no other nations. The planet has a whole is the play pen of the Zionist banking elite and their Talmudic advisers. They move money, and other wealth, as well as people including themselves, from one part of the planet to another part, called countries, as is most advantageous to their goals of world empire.
Some times they are caught with their teat in the ringer. The jury is still out if that was the case with the National Socialist in Germany 1933-45, or was that part of the plan moving the globe further along towards world government?
Can there be any doubt that there is an evil force directing, behind the scenes, and in the seams, the affairs of mankind. Jesus called it out plain and simple for those you have ears to hear of an eyes to see what is this evil force and who were to be evil’s welling helpers: race, color or creed is not a factor.
As Pat writes: “Israel – as usual – is allowed to sell all comers… all sides. The more wars/conflicts globally… the richer Israel becomes. Israel WANTS/NEEDS wars!!!” This is Pure unadulterated EVIL.

TOEJAMICUS, to expand on this surely must involve the F-35, Israel’s latest acquisition from the US. The US was more than happy to make a quick and extremely favorable deal with the Israelis who immediately put the F-35 into combat testing its abilities and expanding on tactics, strategies (aka) very valuable data, data, data acquisition which the US will incorporate into its strategic/tactical reserves for further expansion of its own strategies/tactics. This of course including A.I.

But the main aspect for the allied hesitancy in buying the F-35 is not its exorbitant cost or its ‘bugs’ needing fine tuned or the damper it will put on an ally’s domestic aircraft business which is by its very nature economically immense.
The real reason for their hesitating and see-sawing is rarely if ever mentioned, even on official and unofficial military websites.

THE humongous Catch-22 is the ability/possibility of the US to literally “turn off” the Data-Link to the aircraft which neuters it, renders it into a 4++ generation aircraft which though still very formidable is a shadow of its
5-th generation self.

So if you’re a Germany or any other ally (except Israel) who has bought or is considering buying the F-35 and incorporating it into your nation’s defense, you’re subject to being put out of the
5-th generation position of uber-advantage into a far inferior position of vulnerability at the flick of a switch, so to speak.

Hardly an enviable position being at the mercy of the USA’s good graces or possible unknow strategies. There are precedents which are hardly reassuring..
Still, the idea of possessing a far superior game changing weapon system is more than likely too much for them to pass on and I’m guessing most of the “allies” will not only be unable to resist but are in fact chomping at the bit to possess the
F-35.

F-15 IA:
The plane was built by Boeing for the air forces of Qatar and Saudi Arabia, and initially the United States Air Force (USAF), through which the IAF purchased the planes, pressed Israel not to request to purchase the jets.

This is because the Americans had an interest in continuing the development of the stealth F-35 line, which have been acquired by the US military’s air and naval forces.

In the past year the USAF has begun to take an interest in the new F-15 IA plane, which gave Israel the green light to enter negotiations for its purchase. It seems as though the Americans have agreed to supply Israel with the new plane on condition that it will continue purchasing the F-35 stealth attack aircrafts.

Indeed, the new F-15 can fly longer distances, has higher survivability, more advanced avionic systems, and a much better ordnance-carrying capacity. The jet can carry up to 13 tons of explosives—a capability unmatched by any other attack aircraft.

In the field of air-to-air warfare, the F-15 IA plane is capable of carrying 11 missiles, in addition to 28 heavy, smart bombs for ground targets.

In addition, the aircraft has the capability to carry all the weapons at the IAF’s disposal, including unique Israeli-made missiles, laser and electro-optical systems, and more.

Pat, yes, it’s the perfect compliment to the F-35 strategic capabilities which encompass the entire combat theater not just a smaller (tactical) part of the theater which the F-15 will be directed to engage.
The F-35 can literally command a selected F-15’s fire control system, fire and even guide a separate missile or missiles without the F-15 pilot even being aware of the target.

They have indeed leaped forward into new technologies, aided and abetted by their new BFF, A.I.

Not to mention the newest F-15’s will also impact the financial theater, as per keeping the manna flowing, boy howdy

This article demonstrates once again that the world must deal with Israel – and end it forever. Jews always cause trouble and the trouble makers have nukes, lots of them – and Israel controls the United States nukes. It is only a matter of time until nukes are used again, so what to do…

World peace will never be achieved by praying to the Jew war god, world peace will come when Israel is lit up with nukes, when the Dome of the Rock is turned into a crater of glass the world will finally know peace.

So obvious if you think about it. Imagine if you lived in a neighborhood that had a mad dog that bit everyone. What is the solution to the problem? Cap the mad dog. The same is true for Israel, just put a megaton hell bomb on the Knesset and all the terrorism will instantly stop.

Yes Yes, you are right! With Israel dealt with the Shia Sunni divide will disappear and the Kurds will be welcomed by all and Kumbayah it will be ! Oh what a wonderful world. Lets not forget Yemen. Not one Muslim killed by another Muslim. The Mossad did it

Those are viable points Ralan. The Pakistanis also drove suicide bombs into Indian Kashmir territory ambushing and killing those 42 Indian soldiers because the Israelis or Mossad or maybe the archons made them do it.

Odd how all the constant howling about starting WW3 stops when the crime doesn’t fit the seemingly one and only narrative for every dastardly deed which occurs.

I am not sure about “ISLAMISTS” and who they are or who they pretend to be, but I have a good idea who funds them; I’ve never met any, but I’ve seen men like Anjum Choudhry on the net, a bold, brazen, truly repulsive personality. He would be as close to someone I would define as an “ISLAMIST”.

I’ve met many Wahabis, who are more like the old Pharisees in the way they follow ‘scholars/oral tradition’ and ‘letter-of-the-law’ type mentality, but even then, I’m quite sure I’ve never met those “ISLAMISTS”. Unless of course I’m one of them and I don’t know it….which I think is the point. Makes it easier on the conscience…what’s being advocated. Or, rather it’s a patriotic duty or a defender of the race. China should get a medal for the techniques of wiping the country of the Hui or Uighurs. What a novel idea! They have a mental disease and so they have to be forcefully taught the virtues of eating pork, and if that doesn’t work, the ‘organs’ can be brokered to our (((friends))).

I’ve never met the “ISLAMISTS”, so maybe statements like this may be true: “..in their twisted secular belief that it’s God’s will for them (the true believers) to conquer/kill the idolaters and possess India as their divine raison d’être, will never just fade away. Because for them to fail in carrying out their one true God’s order is unacceptable, unimaginable, sacrilegious.
The existence of India / Hindus / Vedas / Sanatana dharma is a denial of their one true God’s will and the more time passes the more frustrated and psychotic they become.”

Sounds like time is running out for these ISLAMISTS, their psychosis is boiling to a frenzy and if you don’t act now India will be over-run, then who knows…gotta act now!

Maybe that’s what this brigade had in mind:
NEW DELHI — One April afternoon, a group of men clad in saffron scarves barged into a house in Meerut, 40 miles northeast of here, and dragged out a young Muslim man and a Hindu woman. Their offense: They were an interfaith couple in love.

The men, part of a self-appointed enforcement group called the Hindu Youth Brigade, beat the man, videotaped the incident and then handed him over to police for charges of obscenity. The traumatized woman, who wept and covered her face with her scarf, was let off with a warning.

“We are not against love, but this guy changed his name (to a Hindu one) to mislead the girl. Let police investigate,” said Nagendar Pratap Singh Tomar, chief of the brigade.

Several similar attacks have occurred since March, when Prime Minister Narendra Modi chose an anti-Muslim firebrand, Yogi Adityanath, to be chief minister of India’s largest state, Uttar Pradesh, the heartland of the nation’s Hindu population.

On April 13, another interfaith engaged couple in Meerut was attacked in the street by brigade members. The Muslim woman faced verbal abuse while her fiancé, a Hindu, was beaten for protesting.

Also, in April, two dairy farmers returning from a cattle fair in a northern state were attacked by vigilantes, leaving one dead and the other seriously wounded. Cows are considered sacred by Hindus, who make up 80% of India’s population of 1.3 billion.
“We had purchased the cows legally for dairy farming, but our vehicle was intercepted by these men and they beat us up so badly that my neighbor died,” Azmat Khan, 27, from a remote village in Haryana, said from his bed.https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2017/05/05/attacks-indias-minority-muslims-hindu-vigilantes-mount/100951514/

Or this:
Six young Israeli men in the city of Be’er Sheva have been charged with severely assaulting Arab men over their romantic relationships with Jewish women.
The Israeli men are aged between 17 and 20, and two of them are soldiers, according to Haaretz.
In at least six incidents from last December to April 6, they used knives, clubs and metal bars to attack the Arab men for pursuing romantic relationships with Jewish women.
the most severe of the assaults involved 19-year-old Raz Ben-Shalom Amitzur, who approached a Jewish-Arab couple and stabbed the man several times with a knife in his back, chest, abdomen, and arm.
The aim of the assaults was to “prevent the ‘assimilation’ of Jews and Arabs in Be’er Sheva,” police said. Extreme right group Lehava also made videos calling for “saving Jewish women who are married to Arabs,” and some of the attackers were influenced by the footage, the statement cited by AFP added.https://www.rt.com/news/385943-jewish-arab-attacks-women/

The following Qur’anic verse comes to mind:
“You will surely find the most bitter towards the believers to be the Jews and idol worshipers and the most gracious to be those who call themselves Christians. That is because there are priests and monks among them and because they are not arrogant.” (Qur’an 5:82)

The U.S. State Department is offering a reward of up to $1 million for information on Osama bin Laden’s son, who is believed to be taking over as leader of the al-Qaeda terrorist organization.

The Department of State’s Counter-Terrorism Rewards Program issued a printable virtual wanted poster in multiple languages for the emerging terrorist leader, urging the public to help bring the man to justice.

Yes, you are right. Good Christians and Muslims have much in common and could (and should) form a common front against the Jew. It’s hard to tell who the Jews hate more: Christians or Muslims. Unfortunately, many false Christians (like the Christian Zionists) have been tricked into supporting the Jews and regard all Muslims as jihadis and potential terrorists. Personally, the Muslims I have met have all been exceptionally good people. Who can doubt that the Palestinians are in every way far nicer people than the Jews who occupy their land and make their daily lives a living hell?

The one thing I liked about Lobro was his personal loyalty and liking for Muslims. The reason he had this liking for Muslims was that he lived among Muslims in Bosnia and met them on a daily basis. He didn’t get his idea of Muslims by reading the mainstream Western media, controlled by Jews, which does everything in its power to demonize Muslims. Islamophobia is now the new antisemitism, widespread throughout the West.

Sure, there are bad Muslims. But tell me, are all Hindus paragons of virtue? Nope, they are not! Go to India and you will see there is a rape epidemic there. These rapists are usually decadent Westernized Hindus, often working in gangs. Very seldom do you find Muslim rapists in India or even in Pakistan.

@SARDONICUS
All jews do not hate christians or muslims. I dont, my family does not. Of course there are always bad apples in every barrel. The majority of jews in the world are secular. Given that there are alledgedly around 16 million of us I propose in sheer numbers there are many more christians, muslims and others that hate jews than the other way around. Jews dont want war. I will tell you who does. The defense industry ! Of course the majority of people on this site will say that the defense industry is controlled by jews. Rediculous! Take Boeing or Raytheon as an example. Large public companies whose shareholders are institutional pensions. Somehow the 16 million of us control the pensions as well, nonsense! Eisenhower warned the world about the military industrial complex and no one listened. I live and work in DC and can tell you who rules the world. Until these companies stop building weapons the world will remain a dangerous place. Everyone sells arms to everyone somehow someway and it will continue. I can tell you that I have muslim friends but what good does that do. I get a kick out of reading these posts. How remarkable it is that people can talk themselves into almost anything.

Yes, I have no problem accepting much of what you have to say. I daresay if I’d been born a Jew and brought up in the same environment as you, I would be looking at the world from the same perspective as you.

However, put yourself in the shoes of a Palestinian and imagine what you would feel like to see your land occupied and plundered by Jews — and your people regularly slaughtered in Gaza. There’s no point vilifying the Palestinians and calling Hamas and Hezbollah “terrorists”. These organizations are exactly what they say they are: freedom fighters, fighting for the liberation of their lands from the Jewish occupier.

Don’t you know that Ben Gurion was a terrorist and that the attack on the King David hotel in Palestine was a terrorist act committed by Jews? So why are you Jews so anxious to condemn the Palestinians for “terrorism” when it was terrorism that won you Jews the state of Israel? Didn’t you have to bomb your way into acquiring your ill-gotten country in the Middle East?

SARDONICUS – I empathize with the Palestinians and do think enough is enough. However, the jews that live in Israel are not leaving. So what to do. Both sides have to accept this reality. No one can change the past. We can influence the future by respecting each others right to exist. I cannot imagine anyone having to live in fear of their neighbors. It has to start with a pledge of peace and a real effort to try to work it out without the fear of violence on either side. I believe most Israelis believe this and would guess that the majority of palestinians do as well. Jews that live in the US see this whole mess more as a middle eastern problem and do not assimilate with it in anyway shape of form. Perhaps thats shameful but most people do not think beyond their backyards. Just because I am jewsih does not mean that Israel is forever on my mind or in somecases ever for many of my friends

You make too many excuses for the Jews. The fact is, the Palestinians don’t need to accept “peace” just because the Jews have occupied theirs land and are “not leaving”, to use your words. If someone breaks into your house and refuses to move out, what would you do? Accept the intruders meekly in order to keep the peace? Or do your best to evict the squatters?

The Jews have not only taken over Palestine, making it their country, they have taken over America too, making it their second holiday home. Six million Jews call the shots in America. ZOG rules!

Remember Ariel Sharon’s infamous comment in October 2001 as reported on Kol Yisrael radio: “Don’t worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it.”

Do you mean philosophically imagine, existentially imagine or maybe just sentimentally imagine?
Because imagining such a thing in Reality is so easy even a caveman can do it.

Just imagine Chicago, Detroit, Memphis, London, Paris or any number of metropolis miasmas across the globe where people and indeed entire neighborhoods not only live in fear of their neighbors but are robbed and raped and maimed and murdered by their neighbors yesterday, today and tomorrow (aka) every day.
Ad infinitum, one might even imagine.

Sardonicus, yes, one can’t help but notice how swimmingly things are going in the UK, France, Germany, Sweden, Spain, etc.
Damn Hindus raping and robbing and stabbing their way into everyone’s hearts..

Of course they’re really not Muslims at all, are they?
Another glaring reality. They’re Arab and African miscreants, cretins and goblins poorly disguised as Muslims. So why do Muslims remain silent and not denounce them? Even take measures to get rid of them.
They bring shame and disrepute on Islam.
Why is this countenanced?
London’s Mayor Khan as usual being the perfect example..

Yes, I agree with what you say here about the bad Muslims who have invaded Europe, the migrant hordes. But these are not the good Muslims Lobro met up with on a daily basis in Bosnia. There are good Hindus too, the sages and the seekers of knowledge who read the Gita, but these are not the Hindus who are carrying out the rape epidemic in India.

It’s a complex subject. Moral: let’s not generalize.

I am not trying to praise Muslims at the expense of Hindus, if that’s what you believe. I am more in tune with Indian philosophy than with Islamic philosophy.

Sardonicus, you are a gentleman and a scholar, for sure. Of course I know what you’re saying and I get it.

I grew up with black neighbors on two sides of me. That might even trump both the brown Muslims and Indians! And I got along very well with the Mexicans living in Texas for more than 30 years. They called me amigo because I wasn’t lazy, too arrogant (just the right amount) or a sissy.

However, I’m not blind to world class historical precedents and neither should you be. I say this even as I know you’re not blind to them at all. Pretty sure you all have one in progress, right now.

BTW, the Hindu rape epidemic you keep referring to is apples and oranges.
It’s their nation, India, they’re carrying on in.
Not the UK or France or Sweden..

George Orwell (Eric Blair) found that out at an early age. It likely urged his writings.
His father, Richard Walmesley Blair, worked in the Opium Department of the Indian Civil Service.
Although he was separated from his father early on, there were correspondence and infrequent meetings over the years. British Government control through drugs would have been obvious.

Drugs have been a “YUGE” money maker for jews in India for over 150 years through the Opium Department, now defunct since 1947, but still relevant under other names and methods.

Many of the problems in India and Pakistan come from wrestling over control of drugs there.

Eric Arthur Blair was born on 25 June 1903 in Motihari, Bihar, British India.
His great-grandfather, Charles Blair, was a wealthy country gentleman in Dorset who married Lady Mary Fane, daughter of the Earl of Westmorland, and had income as an absentee landlord of plantations in Jamaica.

I actually got the idea to write that phrase about India from what Winston Churchill said about Russia: “Russia is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.”

I’ve read Orwell’s “Burmese Days” and although it’s not specifically about India , there is mention of Indians and there are some similarities between them and the Burmese, at least from the distant European cultural perspective. Orwell was sympathetic towards the subjects of the Empire and their cultures, and presumably their independence struggle too, although as a colonial policeman he would have been the official enemy of any rebels and subversives. Still he does mention the duplicity of many locals, and their underhand dealings, although he is far more scathing of the Brit colonialists and their superior arrogant attitude and racism.

Winston Churchill, on the other hand, hated Indians with a passion. He is quoted as having said: “I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion”.

I’m not sure how wise it was of me to come up with those words, knowing how sensitive most Indians are, probably even worse than Jews in that respect. But I couldn’t help it from what I know about them, and from personal experience too. Of course it’s a generalisation, and considering their population, there are millions upon millions of wonderful, honest, and most correct Indians, but still only a tiny minority.

Here’s a quote I found in another of Orwell’s books “Down and Out in Paris and London” (actually he quotes this as a well known proverb):

“Trust a snake before a Jew and a Jew before a Greek, but don’t trust an Armenian”

What I find interesting is that if I relayed this to a Greek or an Armenian, while they might feel a little uncomfortable, I doubt they’d raise a hue and a cry like Jews or Indians do when you say anything against them; some may even laugh at it. So if Jews accuse one of anti-semitism, it may be worth quoting them this proverb to show that, according to popular wisdom, they’re not the worst out there.

@ sardonicus, ‘islamophobia’ is just another tool of the jews. The jews use the dialectic of opposites and control both sites. They control even the muslims at the top of course the muslims don’t know this and the jews don’t want them to know.,if it wasn’t for the jews the muslims would have never be allowed in Europe etc. It serves the oded yinon plan of the jews to get more lebensraum for the jews in the middle east. Don’t be mistaken the jews and the muslims work together and have their respective role. It’s the jews who provide the muslims the jobs, money, information etc.

Well, I agree with you. The Muslims are manipulated by the Jews without knowing it. So are the blacks. All these ethnic groups are used as pawns in the chess game against the Jews’s primary enemy: the White race.

SARDONICUS – Like I said, all of these plans and schemes that we (the jews) have to rule the world for some reason are clearly being sheltered from some of us jews! I know of none of this, but to most if not all of you I am a liar. However please humor me, I just want to understand. So 16 million jews are manipulating 1.6 billion muslims ? We (the jews) already control all the money, media etc etc correct? Now we want to destroy the white race, why ? BTW, I think of myself as a white male. Pretty sure I am. Help me to understand where all this leads. I think that is a fair question. No ?

If the Hindus are so Spiritually Advanced and so Spiritually Superior then why is Hindu India IN DEEP ALLIANCE with Jew Israel? The Jews are very atavistic and there’s nothing transcendent or spiritually inspiring in Judaism — read their Talmud, it’s very atavistic, it’s about the law of the jungle. Sheikh Imram Hosein says that India is Israel’s biggest supporter, after the United States.

Considering that Hindu India is Jew Israel’s biggest supporter, after the United States, the Hindus here at Darkmoon are in NO position to make all kinds of negative remarks about America’s Zionist “Christians”. Or, they can make negative remarks about America’s Zionist “Christians” but they have to understand that the negative remarks they make about America’s Zionist “Christians” also applies to India’s Hindus. And considering that Hindu India is Jew Israel’s biggest supporter, after the United States, the Hindus here at Darkmoon will have to explain how Hinduism is “Spiritually More Advanced, Spiritually Superior” to Christianity when the Hindus support atavistic Jew Israel as much as America’s Zionist “Christians” do. Zionist “Christians” are stupid and blind and their religion is ridiculous, they greatly support the atavistic jews and the Jews’ warmongering Israel, Zionist “Christians” are like cave men ; The Hindus support the atavistic jews and the Jews’ warmongering Israel, that’s because Hinduism is Spiritually More Advanced than Christianity and Hinduism is Spiritually Superior over Christianity. Really? Tell me about it.

Sheikh Imram Hosein on ZOG’S war against Islamic Muslim Pakistan – and the Hindus of India are part-and-parcel of ZOG as Hindu India is in DEEP ALLIANCE with the Jews and atavistic warmongering Jew Israel. After the Jew-Calvinist United States, Hindu India is Israel’s biggest supporter — so Darkmoon’s Hindus are in no postion to make all kinds of disparaging remarks about Christianity.

@PAT
True when you are referring to the creative mind or even projection where one see’s themselves achieving certain goals. In this regard thought is a good thing. The converse is also true when turning ones back on logic and reason in pursuit of supporting nonsensical postions due to bias!

Joe, the Hindus here at Darkmoon, lol. I’m a student of Vedic culture, and an aspiring Vaishnava. Not a Hindu. I don’t believe there are any regulars here at Darkmoon who are Hindus. Zero Hindus. Hyperbole much?
In fact neither did the Jagad guru claim to be a Hindu.

(LINK DELETED. DAMAGES SITE.)

As for the Israel/India thing or the USA/India thing or the Russia/India thing for all those years, well, does national self defense (aka) self preservation ring a bell?
It’s not like India hasn’t already been invaded and occupied by Muslims, Mughals and Christians, now is it.
(not to mention the pesky Buddhists)

You don’t last for 5,000 years on this planet without being flexible and wise.

As a followup I must say the ISKCON of today is a perverted reflection of what it was when Srila Prabhupada was here in person. Shortly after the (((demons))) poisoned him and assumed control, the Kali-chela Vaishnava imposters slowly but surely went after those Hindu dollars and other deviated paths which were never meant to be. (how they roll)

Sound familiar? I wouldn’t be surprised if these are some of the very same (((demons))) who also usurped and degraded Christianity from its original
non-sectarian purity.
Today’s ISKCON is not really ISKCON at all. It’s pretty much Hindu Inc. now. And even a degraded Hinduism with these dogs in charge

“In referring to the absolute unchangeable nature of God, the soul and the process of devotional service, he [Srila Prabhupada] stated innumerable times that we are not Hindu,” Gauri says. “As a Hindu may convert to become a Muslim or Christian, it is an identity subject to change. Our spirituality being absolute and unchangeable, it cannot be referred to by any such worldly term as Hindu, Christian or Muslim.”

Yeah well, it’s not my fault that the NEO-“Christians”/NEW-“Catholics” sound just like Hindus. It’s impossible to tell the difference between the Hindus and the New Age Novus Ordo “Catholics” [ like Lasha and Monica ] . It’s not my fault that the Jesuit-inspired “Catholics” sound just like Hindus and their Holy Hymn is “My Sweet Lord” by George Harrison, 🕉.

Hp
I am quite sure you’ve seen me write here against those very crimes you cite. I have even countered other Muslims here on the very subject. Further, we are all well aware of who is destroying the ME, and the world, and intentionally driving people into Europe; this in no way ever transfers responsibility of one’s actions to someone else or some entity. A crime is a crime, and each man must bear the responsibility of his/her own actions.
You said, “Meantime, one thing is for certain, for real. The Islamists, in their twisted secular belief that it’s God’s will for them (the true believers) to conquer/kill the idolaters and possess India….”

I’ll tell you what’s for certain, whenever there is someone who truly wants to unite Muslims and Hindus in India, like this fellow:
Mahatma Gandhi, statement published in “Young India”, 1924:
“I wanted to know the best of the life of one who holds today an undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind… I became more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet the scrupulous regard for pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle. When I closed the second volume (of the Prophet’s biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of that great life.”

He ends up dead. Ghandi was not killed by a Muslim, he was killed by a Hindu. Then comes the fancy sophistry by the ‘spiritual Hindus’: it was the law of causation tied in to the law of destiny that then links to the law of karma…end result, it is not really the killer’s fault, it’s Ghandi himself to blame! Amazing!

Regarding Hinduism and Buddhism, I admit there is a lot for me to study still, but, no day of judgement? You simply come back to a lesser form? I’ve never been to India, but I’ve been around Hindus and knowing there are people who marry rats and snakes, thinking they are their spouses? Not to mention bowing to statues of people with monkey heads or elephant heads and all the elaborate puja rites.

What about the caste system that relegates so many human beings to lesser than animal status? How nice! I guess it comes back to the singular-consciousness thing. All these systems of the lordship of men over other men! Whether it’s the lord of the Manor who owns most everything and the poor villein toiling away for his lord (it’s only an illusion that he was freed from it, he is still serving) or the caste of the untouchables serving delightfully; he is taught the more dutiful he is in his servitude the more likely he may return to a better lot the next time around. While it may be true that there are some great spiritual underpinnings to all this, it has so far eluded me, but I will keep studying.

Incidentally, the brilliant Catholic teacher, John Taylor Gatto, who wrote many books on the modern schooling system finally concluded that the British designed our current system from two other systems: the Prussian system and the caste system of the Hindus. They wanted to create a system that could indoctrinate large masses of people to serve the ‘lords’ and do so with more gusto than honouring their own parents. They also wanted to create a group of people who would be willing to die for the religion of patriotism. For reference see his book: “The Underground History of American Schooling.”

Hi Pat,
There isn’t an actual quote but some time ago I was reading a commentary on a book by Swami Parthasarthy: “Vedanta Treatise” and the application of the laws as it applies to Gandhi’s assassination. The logical inference was clear: this is the natural product of HIS actions, HE brought this upon himself because of his actions. I know you like to keep good references, I will look for the commentary when I have more time, as it is, my time is a bit constrained which is why I am not able to visit here much.

The killer is still seen as a hero by a large percentage of Hindus, even today.

Some time ago, you might remember, I wrote a piece on the murder of Israel de Haan who went to Palestine an ardent Zionist but changed his position, for which he too was killed by the Jews.

I think there is a lot to what Toejamicus said also, regarding the Jews not believing in the day of Judgement. That is why, I believe, some of the big signs sent to them with the Messiah were the raising of the dead and the resurrection etc. They even had huge differences of opinions in understanding Satan, Angels and Grace.

I must tell you, whenever I read Darkmoon, one of the first names I look for is Pat.
God Bless

An excellent comment in defense of Islam. You make your points very well. One thing I have noticed. There have been many Muslim and Christian martyrs, willing to die for their beliefs, but I don’t see many Hindus willing to die for karma, reincarnation or the caste system! Strange, is it not? And who, in all honesty, would lay down his life for Hanuman or Ganesh, the monkey god and the elephant god? Not many, methinks!

I’m not knocking Hinduism, having the greatest respect for Vedanta. But there are things about Hinduism that are pretty appalling. For example, suttee, which the British made illegal in India. This is the custom of forcing widows to be burnt to death when their husbands died, so that the wife is compelled to accompany her husband into the Beyond. Horrifically cruel, isn’t it? And yet, this cruelty was justified by “karma”. It’s the poor woman’s karma to be burnt to death for sins she apparently committed in some previous life.

@ Sardonicus
Yes, I too miss Lobro and Winston and Felix and Flan…men with good hearts and minds.
When I cited the Qur’anic verse regarding the relationship of the Jews + idol worshippers in their treatment of the Believers as opposed to the Christian relationship, I was not ‘curry-favouring’ – I thought I’d use that since we’re talking about India – the verse has been there for almost 1500 years.

Many people don’t know about the formative years of the Prophet’s mission and the intense persecution they faced for 10 years, then for 3 more years, his whole clan kicked out and exiled from the city, no one to trade with them… a complete embargo.

What did he do? He advised the believers to emigrate to Abyssinia where they will find a Christian King who will give them asylum.

When the Muslims became strong and were victorious against the Byzantines in Palestine and Syria, the local Christians at first sided with the Byzantines but soon found out that the Muslims were way gentler with them and more just in their dealings. Some time ago I posted a translation of the Agreement Umar ibn Al Khattab made with Sophronius, the patriarch of Jerusalem, but what is perhaps more telling is what happened in Damascus.

When the Muslims conquered Damascus, they had no place to pray. The small group made an agreement to rent the East corner of the Basilica of Saint John the Baptist so they can perform the five prayers and the Friday prayer. For a long time both communities shared the same building.

This did not just last for 10, 20 or 30 years, it lasted for over 70 years. When the Muslim community became very large Al-Walid purchased the whole church, in exchange he built four churches, one of which was dedicated to the Blessed Virgin Maryam.

I would like to share this absolutely beautiful song with everyone at Darkmoon. It is sung by a lovely young Indonesian lady, sang in Arabic language, with translation. Peace and blessings to all.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OMD_LSELAM

Thank you for that beautifully uplifting song. As you know, there are many Islamophobes posting on this site but ignore them! And maybe they’ll go away. 🙂

Rest assured that your comments will always be welcomed by your gracious hostess LD who once went through a period (about 10 years ago I believe) when she used to read the Qur’an in Yusuf Ali’s translation every single day and also recite three short suras as morning prayers: sura 1, sura 117, and sura 118. These three suras, she told me, were as sacred to devout Muslims as the Lord’s Prayer is to devout Christians.

I think this site needs at least one good Muslim like yourself posting on it, so please do continue to give us your input from time to time.

I’m not going to do tit for tat as per all the good and bad Hindus and Muslims and Christians and Buddhists and real history and fake history, etc., etc.
I’d still be typing long after the cows came home.

Not interested in cherry picking the Gandhis and Akbars, arguing Palestinian Muslims and Kashmiri Hindus, invasions of Iraq and India, suttee and honor killing.
All endless exercises in futility and denial and in my experience ultimately pointless.

Try not to too offensive, dear Homer. It doesn’t suit you. I have the greatest respect for Hinduism and have said so several times. But I have an equal respect for Islam — which you, despite all your claims to tolerance and brilliant out-of-box thinking, appear to lack! 🙂

Have you ever read the Qur’an? I seriously doubt it. For Muslims, this book works on the minds and souls of good Muslims in precisely the same way as the Bhagavad-Gita works on the minds and souls of good Hindus.

I have noticed your unfortunate tendency to say negative things about Muslims on this site, where it is trendy to so in an atmosphere of rampant Islamophobia. So tell me, why can’t the occasional criticism of Hinduism be allowed on this website without upsetting you? Why the double standards? Why do you bash Muslims whenever you can get away it and then start protesting when Hinduism is deplored because of its association with the caste system and suttee?

You believe in God. Good! That makes you a fine human being in my eyes. So please do try and become a bit more tolerant toward your Islamic brothers who are on the same path as you ….. as they clamber up Mount Stupendous to the elusive Truth! 🙂

Offensive?! That’s offensive. C’mon man!
Perhaps when I say “the sun never sets on the crimes of the British Empire” might be conscrewed as a tad offensive, but saying “Isn’t that right Sardonicus?” to a person who certainly has his own opinions is offensive!

Upset, or bored and rendered exhauted at the thought of engaging in (a)nother prolonged exercise in tit for tat echannges of sins real and imagined?
This fire isn’t going to stir, sir.
Methinks thou doth protesteth too mucheth.

But I distinctly remember you attacking Muslims on this site in the past. Which is offensive to Muslims whichever way you look at it. And why did you have to object to SEEB’s excellent comment? He was just defending Islam. Which clearly works for him, as Hinduism works for you.

All I’m say is this: if you expect kindness and respect for your beloved Hindu guru and Vedanta, try extending the same kindness and respect to those of another faith. If this mild and reasonable comment angers you, what have you learned from your guru about humility? You might as well have no religion at all.

Many thanks, Homer. Your point is made very well. I can see exactly where you are coming from. I was totally unaware of these horrendous background facts, going back many centuries, and will study them carefully.

I’d like to ask you two serious questions now.

(1) Do you think that the Muslim migrants that have recently invaded Europe in their millions and have been responsible for a rape epidemic will one day become an out-of-control force and genocide the White race in the same way as the Mughals genocided the Indians? Do you see them doing to European civilization what Genghiz Khan did to Russia and Eastern Europe long ago, i.e., bring about a violent bloodbath some day in the future?

(2) Do you think the Muslim community in America constitute a similar threat to the American people? And who do you regard as the greater menace to white Amercans: Jews or Muslims? (I think blacks and East Asians can be ruled out, and the Christian Zionists will certainly join forces with the Jews against American Muslims, keeping them in check).

If you want to know my own view, I think the Jews constitute the greatest threat to all of us. This is because they control all the other ethnic groups and pit them against each other in a divide-and-rule strategy. Look what the Brits did to India by partitioning it, creating a deadly conflict between India and Pakistan that still goes on today — but behind the Brits who did this were the Jewish puppet masters who dominate every aspect of life in Britain.

I think they’ll do whatever the big Jews order, bribe, manipulate, threaten and scare them into doing via their so-called spiritual leaders/politicians. And not just the Muslims but also the small Jews, Christians and Hindus alike. So yes, it’s indeed a real possibility. It’s already happening on a small scall right now, is it not?
Imagine times ten or twenty or a hundred.

America is a different story with its (at least) 50 millon armed citizens.
There’s never been anything like it even as Americans are just as, if not more (((brainwashed))) and malleable than the Arabs and Europeans.
America truly is an enigma, an unknown quantity as far as future violent resistance is concerned.

There are demons at work here and not just in any one religion, sect, cult or society.
Real demons big and small. Not metaphor demons and they’re not all humans. Hardly.
Although I might joke about ‘archons made me do it’ etc., it’s not really a joke at all.

Neither is A.I. a joke. I honestly believe A.I. is the golem by any other name. A demon compelled adventure in taking over the world for real. Perhaps not yet, but soon, and we (all of us) might only hope A.I., after digesting and grokking all the knowledge and wisdom of this world, i.e. the Bible, Koran, Dhammapada, Guru Granth Sahib and especially the Vedas, turns to us and says; call me Sri A.I.
(fingers crossed)

But then I’ll very likely be in heaven or Hell by then.
(finger crossed, again)

Any ideas why Buddhism didn’t catch on in India over two and a half millennia considering that is where it originated, yet in nearby countries (Thailand, Ceylon, etc.) it became massively popular. The egalitarianism of Buddhism, Islam and Christianity would be attractive to those oppressed by the caste system on the subcontinent, but I suppose Islam was spread by the sword during the Moghul invasion. I find it surprising that Hinduism managed to persist so long given the presence of alternatives, especially their native Buddhism. I have read that nowadays many are converting to it, and the other two religions, but I’m not really sure how widespread such practices are.

And of course the more secular rule of Nehru and Gandhi was supposed to have abolished castes and the backward practices of Hinduism, and yet they persist despite being unconstitutional/illegal.

After Lord Buddha’s mission of dampening the abuse of Vedic sacrifices for sense gratification via animal killing and meat eating, Adi Shankaracharya, the greatest proponent of Advaita Vedanta (monism) and an incarnation of Lord Shiva, appeared to fulfill the mission of replacing Lord Buddha’s atheistic philosophy, which had served its purpose wonderfully and restore the Vedas to their proper place.

This is Kali yuga where everything is corrupt, degraded and becoming more so as time passes. Just because the people are degraded and unable to follow correctly the various Vedic, Christian, Muslim scriptures/orders/instructions, (dharma) doesn’t mean the scripture is corrupt or lacking, rather the people and their commitment are.
Christianity is a perfect example. A religion(scriptures) you have a familiarity with.
It’s perfectly given by Lord Jesus to deliver the Christians to God, if followed as instructed. The key word of course being IF.

“It’s perfectly given by Lord Jesus to deliver the Christians to God, if followed as instructed.”

Yep! “IF”…

But it is rarely done. The world is full of people – even Christians – praying in public and not in secret, as instructed. They even pray over sick people and at a meal!! NO reward for them!!

INSTRUCTIONS:
Matthew 6:5
5And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. Truly I tell you, they already have their full reward.
6But when you pray, go into your inner room, shut your door, and pray to your Father, who is unseen. And your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
7And when you pray, do not babble on like pagans, for they think that by their many words they will be heard.
8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.
9So then, this is how you should pray: ‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be Your name,…

Thanks for those links, from which it seems that Hinduism influenced later developments of Buddhism, as I suppose Taoism did on moving further east. Similar to how many claim that original Christianity was corrupted, or at least influenced or infiltrated, by Judaism.

Yes, I always prefer to go to the original teachings and books, and ignore the subsequent interpretations, with whatever religion. The original teachers seemed to keep it simple and basic while those who came later tried to twist and complicate things so as to spawn a myriad of irreconcilable cults and sects. Personally, I can’t see the point in studying all the intricacies of their disagreements, so I suppose I come over as rather ignorant and not well informed on questions of theology, but I’m not too bothered about it as talking to various proponents is like debating with politicians.

Buddhists, Sikhs, Muslims, Christians on the subcontinent all have their own versions of the caste system. They can be just as dogmatic, pedantic, ”ídolatrous” and cruel as you claim the Hindus are.

The caste system was codified human nature of a subtle school of metaphysical thought, though not present in the original vedas, but now (i.e. in recent centuries) it is a fossilized, grossly unjust spectacle of human cruelty that boils down to…not wanting to give up the privilege of birth and rank, money and profession. In India, the largest part of the people are or have been so acutely poor and malnourished, the population and desperation so great, that it makes the semi-literate, the ill-educated and stunted people cling even harder to perceived ”caste privilege”, even when none exists. They have not much else.

But you see this in England too (still happens today, but well documented from olden times), even America has its own version of the caste system. I have observed with my own eyes the deep river of seething hatred Americans have for their black compatriots even to date. Not to mention the Australians. Are Europeans so well disposed to other races over the many centuries they have colonized and ruled over many brutalized people? But I suppose it’s easier to not notice the beam in one’s own eye.

Well said! — and beautifully written too. If you have any further thoughts on the caste system or related matters, please let us have them. One thing I will say. However negatively you may view British rule in India, there were good Brits who did two undeniably good things for your country: (1) they abolished the cruel practice of suttee; and (2) they respected Indian culture, learned Sanskrit, and promoted a serious study of the Vedas, the Upanishads and the Bhagavad-Gita.

Yes, it’s always been obvious to me, even as a child, that the only difference between the caste system and the class system is in the amount of Western denial that they even have one.
Charles Dickens and Mark Twain told me so.

The original Vedic system, for the harmony, betterment and spiritual advancement of the individual and society was given by Sri Vyasadeva (Krishna Dwaipayana Vyasa) Krishna’s literary incarnation. Varnashrama Dharma

This system places each individual in their own proper position as per natural gifts, inclinations and propensities. Alas, being this is Kali yuga and India isn’t immune to degradation, no nation is, this has devolved into a degraded caste system which very much like the West applies rewards, titles, status, etc. mainly by virtue of one’s birth. Especially birth in a rich family as anyone who is poor but intelligent and talented can attest to.

I wanted to add a few thoughts to my original post. For some reason they did not reflect in my response the other day. This topic and its many offshoots could fill an encyclopaedia (sp?) and cover the history of the world and the present times, so I won’t go as far as writing a thesis. But still, it merits additional thought, if only for the reason that Hindus are so poorly and savagely represented in most Western literature, and yet all its treasures are being appropriated or ‘ripped off’ in modern parlance.

But first, to answer why Buddhism didn’t catch on in India…there was, and still is, a Hindu Way of Life. Santana Dharma…the righeous way. It is both subtle and gross…encompassing everything and beyond, from how to live, marry, interact, think, do charity, treat other life, cook food, perform last rites, how to look at the world, and answers most of the questions/doubts and sorrows of a human mind (we won’t go into the merits of what those answers might be)…that comprise the Hindu world. It is a world indigenous to the land that is contiguous modern India, and it takes care of all human and spiritual needs of the people of that land (somewhat akin to that land itself, which *is* most ancient, mystical and holy, though in Kali Yuga much degraded, just as the people are; though I never now doubt the ability of India to regenerate itself).
The Hindu world is a rich, deep river that has nourished and sustained its people through the millenia, no matter the circumstances, and the people have not abandoned it. Maybe they have, from time to time, questioned and critiqued and modified, but never left it entirely. You cannot abandon your mother or the world inside your head. This is why the Hindus never took to Buddhism. The land is Hindu/the Hindus are the land. Most Hindus consider Buddhism an offshoot or daughter of our way. It is a subset of the whole. Most Buddhist practices are in principle and matter, based on Hinduism anyway. Perhaps, if you are Western, you may not recognize the influence, but Hindus do.

What English Lord or Lady, European grandee, or ‘blue blooded’ American (they exist, as we all well know, with deep roots in Anglo and European aristocracy, and/or old/new money) would willingly marry, even today, a commoner with no real money or recorded history that goes back centuries? Britain literally still has, a ‘House of Lords’, with hereditary peers and other ‘appointees’. Bet you none of the appointees come from common people, but are peers/friends/family/business partners/toadies of one or more of the ‘Lords’. Isn’t that a form of the caste system? What blue-chip American mega corporation has a CEO who is not from one of the connected Ivy League schools (old school East Coast or one of the new ones like Stanford)? Very, very few I wager. And how does one even get into one of these hallowed schools? That’s a story for another day.

The West has its own caste system, albeit marginally more subtle, though just as cruel. But then, the Western world has been richer for much of the ‘modern’ times due to colonization/looting/genocide/marginalization of broken peoples, and more sophisticated by virtue of that and feeling itself superior for a manifest destiny justified by the scriptures they follow.

Pat, yes, the professional reciters of scripture for money, esteemed position and other material gains are in a heap of trouble. They’re worse than the worst hypocrites.

As far as praying, chanting, singing the glories of the Lord in the company of others, in public, in the church, mosque, temple or even in the woods where the animals hear, that is highly reccommended!

It’s the sincerity and intentions which are everything and one tends to be very sincere when alone and the pressures of peers, routine, requirements and expectations are absent.
As you correctly say, Lord knows..