I hope everything went well for you and your family, boranbkk. I eagerly await your responses when you return.

My next question concerns what if often referred to as the Mike Tyson Combination:
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1bkMtrPZwY[/ame]

This combination works so well because of the opening that is created by defending/reacting to the right hook that is attacking the body. The shift to the left can make a perfect opening for the right uppercut.

I know that body punching can be dangerous in Muay Thai, so I'll leave it to others to say if/when it is an ok time to punch the body. I just want to know if a variation of this combo could work in Muay Thai, but I want to change it a little. How effective would a right hook to the body followed by an upward slashing elbow to the head, instead of the uppercut, work in a Thai fight?

Hey guys, sorry about the slow response, but the first thing I’ve learnt about having a baby is you’re never ever ever ever gonna have as much time as you did before. Anyway the little guy’s been born and his middle name is “Buakao” (the correct spelling). I’d decided to name him after a famous Thai fighter and was torn between Kannom Tom, Boonlai, Sakmongkol or Buakaw. In his hospital room there was a poster of that famous painting by Monet of two white lotuses so I kind of took that as an omen to call him “Buakao” “white lotus” and besides Buakao’s become a bit of a hero for me the last few years, especially the way he’s taken on the corrupt Thai MT establishment and set a small but important precedent for the army of still “enslaved” Thai fighters that follow him.

Anyway, back to biz…. southpaws in MT.

Quote:

Originally Posted by evalistinho

Question here boran how much does the southpaw stance have an effect in Muay Thai? I trained four months in Thailand and one trainer told me "you wanna be good at muay thai fight righty. You want to be great fight as southpaw." Im a lefty so it didnt matter but he said a lot of righties fight southpaw as well.

How true is this?

Yep, in Thailand you get more southpaws than probably anywhere in the world including Cuba. The funny thing is most of them are natural righties converted form the start or early in their career. You hear that a fair bit the"You wanna be good at Muay Thai fight as a righty. You want to be great fight as a southpaw." It’s funny he said it to you because it has more meaning to a natural righty convert than a natural lefty. The main reasons for the conversion are to gain the usual edge of awkwardness that a southy brings to all combat sports, but in MT mainly to balance out the power and proficiency between a righty’s traditionally powerside on the right and his weaker and less fluid side on the left.

If you’re a natural righty fighting comfortably out of a southpaw stance you have your natural power forward nearer your opponent. Traditionally the weapons nearer your opponent are weaker and usually technically less fluid, especially with front round kicks, which in Thai MT tend to not be pulled back but thrown from a lead position and hence are fast but lack the bite of a kick thrown with the swing and momentum gained from being on your back leg, but if you put you natural power in that weaker role suddenly your lead limbs are that bit more dangerous than a traditional righty fighting orthodox..... Now you can start to see the benefit of having your weaker side at the back, you can gain more momentum with your punch, kick etc. and hence more power and fluidity with what are technically slightly inferior weapons on a traditional orthodox fighter. It just feels more comfortable to throw a round kick from a back leg than a front one, that’s why so many foreign fighters shuffle and switch so much which as is actually bad technique that telegraphs your kick. It’s tough to master the art of throwing a lead leg without pulling it back to make it fluid and powerful especially if it’s not on your natural side so it’s just common sense that if you trying to master an “unnatural technique” it’s gonna go that bit better and be more fluid if you do it on your natural side right!? Same goes for all the weapons, but especially with the kicks.

When a southy fights a righty you tend to see less low kicks and more action around the mid-section and head than usual (just think Yodsanklai with his repeated strong mid and high kicks). This has to do with low kicks of both fighters being easy to counter with straight power hands or power kicks to the mid-section which tends to be the blind spot in lefty v righty MT fights. This makes for quite exciting fights that favour kickers and tend to involve almost all the techniques being thrown by both guys from rear legs, hands, knees etc. which means power exchanges as the front techniques kind cancel each other out slightly. The usual fighting southy paw thing of “Keep moving to the left to stay away from their stronger side.” Or “Throw right hand down the pipe.” etc. etc Are all well and good but slightly less meaning full in Thai MT than international MT of boxing as Thais tend to come at each other straight on and stand infront of each other to exchange tit for tat without circling too much. What’s more key is that you just can’t miss with a mid-section round kick off your back leg and it’s very easy to land with your front push kick. Use the left hook and quick low left kick to bring him onto your right sided kicks, knees and punches etc.

Anyway, here’s an example of what I’m talking about. This clip of quality lefty Sam-A (red) vs Tingtong (blue)@ Raja last year. Not the greatest fight Raja’s ever seen but a great example of Ortho v Southey battle between two top guys. Notice how much of the battle is fought around the mid-section as that’s where the “unguarded” opening usually is on both “open sided” fighters, very little low point stuff as they get easily countered with straight punches and knees etc.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxrehqueEf4[/ame]

And just to highlight the importance of the southpaw in Thailand the southy ATG list is never ending including guys like Samkor, Samart (he switched a lot) Sakmongkol, Sangtiennoi, Orono etc etc to name mere sprinkling and some current southy standouts, Sam-A, Saenchai, Saiyok, Yodsanklai & Saketdao.

If you watch the video I included with my opening post, you'll see the instructor lifting his lead leg without telling what type of kick is going to come. Then he turns it into a sidekick. At least that is how I saw it. The way he lifted his foot, it looked as though he could do a push kick or a sidekick from the initial stage. I don't think his stance was optimal for Muay Thai, but it did make me wonder if a Thai boxer could throw a sidekick from a Thai stance.

I am in no way suggesting that teep should be replaced with the sidekick. I was just wondering if it could be used to good effect from a Muay Thai stance.

For me Rev, not really. His stance is not square enough, it lacks the speed and power you can generate in a lead leg teep. It’s just too slow for a lead leg especially if you consider it form a traditional squarer MT stance. He’d have to turn some before he threw it. Not saying it wouldn’t land sometimes, but what’s its purpose? Once it’s landed it’s still putting your feet in a bad position to be countered by a juicy low round kick.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matty lll

Hey boran, do you have any videos of your fights? I wouldn't mind seeing them

Flattered Matty, but you may have to wait til about January next year now the little one’s finally been born. I’m usually based between BKK, Trang and London and I’ve basically been stuck in the West for the last 6 months due to the missus being pregnant and probably won’t get back to BKK til early Jan unless I really have to pop back for business. I’ve a few old digital tapes and a VDO tape left plus a mixed bag of photos going back to the early 90s, some of which I’ve already posted in the MT/Kickboxers ATG thread here on ESB. I lost a lot of stuff in the floods of 2008-9 in south of Thailand where I had a lot of stuff stored in a small rural Buddhist temple in Trang. Lost a lot of sentimental stuff like my fav old fight shorts, my 6oz gloves I used to use for years and years on the pads, lots of photos as well as other important personal stuff & documents unrelated to MT etc.etc. Bit of a shame, but it’s just stuff, it’s the experiences we have and what we’ve learnt from them that really matter in life!

My next question concerns what if often referred to as the Mike Tyson Combination:[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

This combination works so well because of the opening that is created by defending/reacting to the right hook that is attacking the body. The shift to the left can make a perfect opening for the right uppercut.

I know that body punching can be dangerous in Muay Thai, so I'll leave it to others to say if/when it is an ok time to punch the body. I just want to know if a variation of this combo could work in Muay Thai, but I want to change it a little. How effective would a right hook to the body followed by an upward slashing elbow to the head, instead of the uppercut, work in a Thai fight?

I really enjoyed that clip and your idea (wasn’t the iron one a beast in his heyday!), but the timing and the body mechanics of the uppercut and the elbow are very different. First off, the elbow is a strike that when effective tends to be thrown in a very opportunistic way, largely due to where you find yourself at the time in terms of foot positioning and distancing. It’s one of those techniques that if you’re looking hard to land it you probably won’t, especially off a drilled combo. It gets landed and has the most effect when situation & circumstance take over and you reflexes kick in once you’ve spotted that rare chance in unusual range, if your quick enough you got to let it fly.

In the west train most MT guys train in combos on the pads similar to their traditional boxing brothers and they like to put elbows in the combo. Truth is you’ll almost never land an elbow form a drilled combo as I said above it just never seems to work that way, the mechanics of an MT fight don’t allow it. In Thailand they don’t really drill you on combos, infact I remember when I first started training in BKK I was discouraged from working combos on the bag and never really drilled combos on the pads. It was all about one strike power at the right target at the right time. It was hard to get used to, but it did make me a more natural fighter, less by the numbers and more strike intuitive and effective and less open to counter attacks. That’s why I think Thai fighters when fighting can read a fight so much better than their farang brothers who on occasion seem to throw certain techniques or combos for the sake of it cos that’s how they’ve been taught to fight, not necessarily picking the right weapon for the right target at the right time, almost robotic in nature and easy to read.

The upward elbow itself doesn’t come from the same place as the uppercut does. Foot work’s slightly different and once thrown it always tends to be on the side of your body as opposed to infront of it like an uppercut, length of limb dictate this. You tend to step in with it and the push with the shoulder more like a straight punch or a jab than an uppercut. To land a very “powerful” upward elbow “slashing” as you put it in the original question requires your hips to rotate more and your back leg to turn much more actually bad technique. A little awkward and nowhere near as fluid or relaxed as a nice uppercut, this kind of over rotated upward elbow is often taught in the west more to look good on the pads than to be effective. The range is also slightly different, it’d be unnatural to be in the right position to throw an upward elbow with power after throwing a powerful left hook body shot which tends to have you leaning forward with your weight to the left, usually elbows when effective are thrown form a very upright position either with a little step in or sometimes not depending on circumstance. The truth is most effective elbows are thrown with very little dynamic force behind them mostly just body weight and hence little wind up and that’s what makes them so dangerous, fast *** and opportunistic.

Check this great clip of a punch of MT elbow KOs. Notice, no combos, look @ distance and almost all very opportunistic strikes dictated by a split second situation. I love the last one!

For me Rev, not really. His stance is not square enough, it lacks the speed and power you can generate in a lead leg teep. It’s just too slow for a lead leg especially if you consider it form a traditional squarer MT stance. He’d have to turn some before he threw it. Not saying it wouldn’t land sometimes, but what’s its purpose? Once it’s landed it’s still putting your feet in a bad position to be countered by a juicy low round kick.

Welcome back!

I've been missing you.

I've always heard that the sidekick is the most powerful kick, because it involves both the glut and the quad muscles. Are you saying the teep is more powerful? If so, how is it? This is not a loaded question as I have no feedback if you have a good reason.

I was under the assumption that the sidekick was more powerful than the teep, and wondered how much more damage could be done to an opponent's body by using the sidekick.

How do you properly defend the sidekick, or any kick headed straight for the abdomen for that matter? Do you simply side step it, or is there more ways?

That's interesing about the lack of combination drilling in Thailand, in boxing over here it's the opposite. If you are throwing hard single strikes you'll get told to focus more on fast combinations, I guess that's just because the sports are very different.

I don't train Muay Thai or Kickboxing and doubt I ever will do so(I might visit Thailand someday in a few years and train a bit when I'm there) but I really enjoy watching it and reading about it. One thing I was wondering when you talked about how Faran's are almost 'robotic' in nature and how single hard strikes are prefered to combinations is the setting up of strikes. In boxing of course you set up your combinations with a jab etc. You are always thinking ahead of your opponent but you say that in Muay Thai a single hard strike at the perfect time is better. So does this mean that Thai fighters don't set up there strikes and just react to their opponent or do they set up strikes in another way?

That's interesing about the lack of combination drilling in Thailand, in boxing over here it's the opposite. If you are throwing hard single strikes you'll get told to focus more on fast combinations, I guess that's just because the sports are very different.

I don't train Muay Thai or Kickboxing and doubt I ever will do so(I might visit Thailand someday in a few years and train a bit when I'm there) but I really enjoy watching it and reading about it. One thing I was wondering when you talked about how Faran's are almost 'robotic' in nature and how single hard strikes are prefered to combinations is the setting up of strikes. In boxing of course you set up your combinations with a jab etc. You are always thinking ahead of your opponent but you say that in Muay Thai a single hard strike at the perfect time is better. So does this mean that Thai fighters don't set up there strikes and just react to their opponent or do they set up strikes in another way?

What I was taught was that way is "staying in the pocket" and using the higher skills of MT evasion, timing, catching and checking to "invite" your opponent to throw something and makes him look foolish and clumsy with a miss - capping it off by landing something better.

Training farang is different and especially the higher weights. What works for lightweights does not necessarily translate to cruiser weights or heavyweights. A huge difference for example is that thais who fight MT have generally done so from a young age and have grown into southpaw. Westerners have not and frequently any athletic person who shows interest in MT has had a decade of conventional (right hand) based training to build their right arm and right leg dexterity which has to addressed and even'd up.

A favourite little point of mine - the thais play volleyball with their feet, westerners with their hands.

In the west train most MT guys train in combos on the pads similar to their traditional boxing brothers and they like to put elbows in the combo. Truth is youíll almost never land an elbow form a drilled combo as I said above it just never seems to work that way, the mechanics of an MT fight donít allow it. In Thailand they donít really drill you on combos, infact I remember when I first started training in BKK I was discouraged from working combos on the bag and never really drilled combos on the pads. It was all about one strike power at the right target at the right time. It was hard to get used to, but it did make me a more natural fighter, less by the numbers and more strike intuitive and effective and less open to counter attacks. Thatís why I think Thai fighters when fighting can read a fight so much better than their farang brothers who on occasion seem to throw certain techniques or combos for the sake of it cos thatís how theyíve been taught to fight, not necessarily picking the right weapon for the right target at the right time, almost robotic in nature and easy to read.

Western Boxing combinations are based on capitalizing on anticipated reactions. The one-two(jab-cross) followed by a hook to the body is designed to bring the hands up and take advantage of the exposed ribs. Hooking off the jab is done when the defender parries the jab, and leaves the side of the head open for the hook. Mike Tyson's combo, the right hook to the body followed by the right uppercut to the head, was designed to have the opponent leaving the chin open while reacting to the body shot.

There is a problem with how they are drilled, as you mentioned in your post. Many start throwing the combination while ignoring the design. There is no reason to hook off the jab if the opponent doesn't move the hand and leave an opening. There is no reason to hook to the body after a one-two if both head shots land, and the opponent doesn't lift the arms and give the opening. It's time to keep firing straight shots. Yet, you often see fighters fire off combinations regardless of their opponent's reactions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by boranbkk

Check this great clip of a punch of MT elbow KOs. Notice, no combos, look @ distance and almost all very opportunistic strikes dictated by a split second situation. I love the last one!

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

That last one showed me the danger of throwing uppercuts when elbows are involved.

I've always heard that the sidekick is the most powerful kick, because it involves both the glut and the quad muscles. Are you saying the teep is more powerful? If so, how is it? This is not a loaded question as I have no feedback if you have a good reason.

I was under the assumption that the sidekick was more powerful than the teep, and wondered how much more damage could be done to an opponent's body by using the sidekick.

How do you properly defend the sidekick, or any kick headed straight for the abdomen for that matter? Do you simply side step it, or is there more ways?

No I'm not saying the teep is a more "powerful” kick just that it's more practical than a side kick out of a pretty square MT stance. Requoting myself “It lacks the speed and power you can generate in a lead leg teep. It’s just too slow for a lead leg especially if you consider it form a traditional squarer MT stance. He’d have to turn some before he threw it.If it even lands it’s still putting your feet in a bad position to be countered by a juicy low round kick.” In an MT contextthe sidekick is pretty slow and useless, easily avoided and as we’ve mentioned before it leaves you in a precarious position. In a straight power test on a bag or some kind of kick shield, sure the traditional side kick will generate a helluva a lot of power but your chances of landing it an a fluid MT bout are 1 in 10 or probably less, compared with the “teep” that probably has a lading ratio of 9 in 10. So what I meant when I said the teep has more power in the MT stance was the kick that lands has more power than the kick that doesn’t, no rocket science there pretty simple.

The side kick is pretty easy to avoid once you’ve had it thrown at you a couple of times. Just simple step back and counter (not against the ropes!), side step and counter, wipe it away if it’s a lead leg side kick, but the most effective way and most natural to a Muay Thai fighter is to crowd him in true aggressive Muay Thai style!

I’ve spoken a lot about in other post about how “real” MT as fought by the Thais is a relatively simple fluid style of fighting based in power and relentless stalking pressure. So if you have a guy opposite you that likes to throw sidekicks like an old skool kickboxer, remember you are fighting the tougher style and keep cutting of the space and crowding him. Remember he needs space to turn a little sideways, lift his leg slightly across his body and then push it out towards you, if you don’t give him the space you’ve smothered him along with his sidekick. Remember as an MT fighter being in the pocket is you bread and butter against any non MT fighters, knees elbows, and low licks etc. Stay on him with vicious low point kicking as he keeps trying to back up to create space, as you get him near the robes keep walking in with the knees and mixing it with your hands, he’ll soon start getting ragged and confused having had his power jab and space taken away from him. You’ll grind him down pretty easy from then on. You need much less space to launch a front or back push kick or “teep”, it’s simpler and much faster from your stance and with enough hip in it packs enough power to do the same job as the classic side kick.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rekcutnevets

Western Boxing combinations are based on capitalizing on anticipated reactions. The one-two(jab-cross) followed by a hook to the body is designed to bring the hands up and take advantage of the exposed ribs. Hooking off the jab is done when the defender parries the jab, and leaves the side of the head open for the hook. Mike Tyson's combo, the right hook to the body followed by the right uppercut to the head, was designed to have the opponent leaving the chin open while reacting to the body shot.

There is a problem with how they are drilled, as you mentioned in your post. Many start throwing the combination while ignoring the design. There is no reason to hook off the jab if the opponent doesn't move the hand and leave an opening. There is no reason to hook to the body after a one-two if both head shots land, and the opponent doesn't lift the arms and give the opening. It's time to keep firing straight shots. Yet, you often see fighters fire off combinations regardless of their opponent's reactions.
.

Exactly. This is what I meant about farang being a bit "robotic" or predictable, kind of fighting by the numbers. However, in boxing it kinda works due to the limited target area nad limited weapons.

That's interesing about the lack of combination drilling in Thailand, in boxing over here it's the opposite. If you are throwing hard single strikes you'll get told to focus more on fast combinations, I guess that's just because the sports are very different.

I don't train Muay Thai or Kickboxing and doubt I ever will do so(I might visit Thailand someday in a few years and train a bit when I'm there) but I really enjoy watching it and reading about it. One thing I was wondering when you talked about how Faran's are almost 'robotic' in nature and how single hard strikes are prefered to combinations is the setting up of strikes. In boxing of course you set up your combinations with a jab etc. You are always thinking ahead of your opponent but you say that in Muay Thai a single hard strike at the perfect time is better. So does this mean that Thai fighters don't set up there strikes and just react to their opponent or do they set up strikes in another way?

Hey Matty.

What I mean when I say “one strike power at the right target at the right time” I’m not talking in the sense of a classical martial artist like karate guy or KF guy who is delivering a one of concentrated technique. It’s more constant strikes being thrown as in boxing except everything that is thrown is thrown with nasty finishing intent aimed at a perceived opening. Pre drilled combos kinda work in boxing cos the target area is very small and you’re only using two weapons so predicted openings can be pretty accurately guessed hence “the sweet science” moniker, but in MT to many variables to predict regular openings and weakness in defences. If you train in combos you’ll fight in combos and that opens you up to being countered quite easily in MT. The first rule of MT only throw it if you mean it!

Here are some examples of some typical pad work and bag work. Everything is thrown to focus on power and good technique not to premeditate combos for the ring. Infact, the little guy on the bag is being quite adventurous, very often bag work consists of guys kicking exactly the same spot on the bag with the same leg round after round after round after round after round after round……………!

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRjNOKUDpF0[/ame][Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bl7eU8X9jyw[/ame][Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AHBxB9GULg[/ame][Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
Interms of the setting up and laying of traps PIRA said it pretty well:

“What I was taught was that way is "staying in the pocket" and using the higher skills of MT evasion, timing, catching and checking to "invite" your opponent to throw something and makes him look foolish and clumsy with a miss - capping it off by landing something better.”

Muay Thai in Thailand is a very “tit for tat” style of fighting, ever wonder what was happening in rd 5 of what you thought was a close fight when the seemingly stronger fighter just suddenly shuts up shop and then the weaker fighter goes on the rampage? Just as PIRA said a better strike was landed by the guy in red so now the guy in blue has to and something juicer, so the guy in red has to do everything in his power to avoid it and only counter if the blue guy lands the shot, tennis anyone?

About training in Thailand……..do it! It’ll be one of the highlights of your fighting life and maybe your civilian life to. Plenty of opportunity to train in western boxing to. Here’s a link from a while back about boxing training in Thailand from th Brit forum:

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PIRA

Training farang is different and especially the higher weights. What works for lightweights does not necessarily translate to cruiser weights or heavyweights. A huge difference for example is that thais who fight MT have generally done so from a young age and have grown into southpaw. Westerners have not and frequently any athletic person who shows interest in MT has had a decade of conventional (right hand) based training to build their right arm and right leg dexterity which has to addressed and even'd up.

A favourite little point of mine - the thais play volleyball with their feet, westerners with their hands.

I totally agree. One of the main reasons I struggle to watch heavyweight MT, I've always felt its a sport for little guys. Of course you can get some great heavies but they tend to be very rare gems in a giant stacks of coals.

What do you think of this? Does he leave out anything important. I would like to know, percentage wise, how much weight goes on each foot. Should it be 50/50, or should it be more like 60% on the rear leg and 40% on the lead leg?