Messages - jack24

Edit: Jack, if there's a link to something not remotely law-related in a poster's signature line, best move is just to report it and move on. Just another damned spammer.

What is legislations school? Is that what they call it in the UK?

What is "good work." I know plenty of extremely qualified attorneys working for less than 60 grand a year and making payments on $100,000+ loans. For a large minority of law students, they could have made just as much money in a different industry and incurred much less debt.

I know that is a pretty big firm for Michigan, but it still provides some insight on the market. Look at the gap in graduation years.

Now, I don't have time to add them all up (because it includes undergrad universities in the search), but I can tell you there are SUBSTANTIALLY more from Wayne State and Michigan State than cooley.

Finally, there are 10 people who graduate from the top ten from cooley every year. Only one person who graduated from Cooley Law School in the last 26 years currently works at that firm. The best students at cooley either didn't try to work at this firm or didn't get hired.

I've managed up to ten employees at a time in my career, so I'm no executive level business guy here. Still, I would take raw talent, energy, and enthusiasm, over "work ethic" any day. Find the right mixture of duty, reward, and fear, and you can unleash them. I recognize there is a significant risk that you will waste time and money in training someone who ends up being lazy and entitled, but there is also a huge long-term reward.

Before I passed the bar, I worked with four law firms (100+ hours with each). Nobody involved wanted to manage at all. My current firm is the same way. They want you to just "go, go, go!" I understand why they are that way, but that simply isn't the reality. However, I think the new crop of employees has much more potential with the right management.

I've considered teaching law, but it's incredibly competitive and mostly reserved for those with better educational credentials than I have.. There are far less law schools than there are undergrad institutions.

If you want to teach, can you get an assistant teacher job at a law school, or teach at a community college (both I doubt require a PhD)

I already adjunct at a State University. MY JD counts as a Ph.D. for their statistical purposes. I really love it, and I'd like to do that full time. Unfortunately, the opportunities for full time faculty employment are slim for a J.D. only.

Now, I can't speak for every other employer out there, but if I have to choose between someone who worked at Burger King for the last year with a 3.2 gpa versus one with a 4.0 gpa and no work experience, I'm going to hire the BK kid. I'm looking for a strong work ethic and a desire to work. If you stayed at home depending on mommy and daddy for the last year without doing some type of work, it insinuates that either you won't do certain tasks required for your job or that you may not even want to work. Everyone has to pay their dues at some point. How can I possibly give someone a chance at an entry level job when I don't know if they can even hold down a job?

Cher1300:I don't know if you want to hire drones or even what your definition of drones is.Work ethic and "dues paying" are important, but they can often be overcome with management and incentives. Many employers don't think they should have to manage or incentives. They want someone who works because that's what people should do. I had an employer who complained about how people were on facebook all the time. He managed to get it banned from the network but he didn't point out deficiencies in our work product, and we hadn't missed any deadlines. He addressed the symptoms, not the problem.

The new generation, particularly those smart kids with no work experience, probably won't work without an assignment and a reason. Drones work because they are there to work. They find things to do. They see a need, they fill a need. That said, Many managers are far to busy (lazy) to train, assign, evaluate, and give feedback. They feel this is "babysitting." Also, many managers don't want workers who say, "Why are we doing this>? This doesn't make sense. I'm not doing it." Most of the time that is because managers are either too busy (lazy) or they don't have a good answer.

Your statement implies that you either evaluate work ethic over talent, or you don't see a 4.0 as evidence of talent. If it's the latter, then fine. If it's the former, then you don't have enough confidence in your ability to manage.

This really depends on what size of firm you are interviewing at. Small firms are all about the money. If you will need to generate revenue in five years, tell them how your five year goal is to be a major contributor, and bring in more business than you can bill yourself.

I don't think the answer is necessarily reducing the number of students who can get in, but I do think the federal lending policies need to be tighter. Students currently get more and more financing depending on the cost of attendance rather than their career prospects. I think schools should finance student loans themselves and risk never getting paid.

Also, law schools and the ABA should get over themselves and make law school a one year degree. If you can pass the bar and get someone to hire you, one year of law school should be enough. If people were concerned about baby solo practitioners, the state bars could require a lengthy apprenticeship or something. This would cut the cost of law school down by 2/3. A residency requirement is interesting, but it would have to be very flexible. The legal field is so diverse, and some employers would rather hire and train employees after school than hire them after a residency.

What is personal litigation? Does that mean non-business litigation. Couldn't you just say, "Litigation"

Anyway, I'm glad this thread was resurrected. I remember reading it a while back.

Cher1300, if you are reading this, sorry to be sassy: 1) What type of work experience do they need? What if they move bricks for a living or work at the school library? I worked my way through school, and I learned a lot. But I don't think you need to work through school to know how to handle stress and show up on time. Additionally, work ethic changes depending on the job. A salesman who makes commission by selling mortgage products might have to go to luncheon's and play golf a lot and he has to be self-driven and commit to the sale. A grocery store clerk basically just has to work at a high level and stay put. Those are two wildly different skill sets.

2) The second paragraph of points you make sounds like someone who only likes to manage one type of person. Maybe a college student who was involved in several campus activities and frats and partied all the time will actually have a wildly different skill set than someone who worked the window at the movie theater. Your post implies (not insinuates, since that's different) that you want to hire drones.

Also, a 3.0 and a 4.0 are miles apart, Duncanjp. At most state universities, a 3.0 in a liberal arts degree doesn't require hardly any effort. Maybe some 4.0's aren't "that" impressive, but a true 4.0 shows dedication. That said, a 3.6 and holding down a job is pretty dang impressive. A 3.0 and holding down a job shows you have the skills of a highly functioning primate, at least.

Most (if not all) law schools offer practical skills, courses, trial advocacy, etc. My law school offered a few courses that were designed for small firm/solo litigators. That's not really the point, though.

The tough part of starting a solo practice straight out of law school is not managing the office, it's finding clients, getting paid by clients who are often broke themselves, and learning how to navigate the court system. The people I've known who successfully started solo practices had several years of hands-on experience working in small offices. The typical law school class is only 30-45 hours per semester, not nearly enough to prepare the average student.

This is great insight. The easy clients to get are the hardest to get money from. I do think some firms suffer and die because of mismanagement, but most of the time they starve from a lack of paying clients.