capt.hollister:I don't get all the Chavez hate. Sure, he's a socialist megalomaniac who hates the West in general and the US in particular, but he's hardly one of history's bad guys.

Fomenting class warfare, outright propery theft from citizens, allowing the murder rate to skyrocket, rampant corruption, etc. Part of my family lives in Caracas and the quality of life for them has taken an enormous turn for the worst. When I was a child the streets were generally safe to walk around in most neighbrohoods. Now as an adult I wouldn't walk them without a firearm and a damn good reason.

ChipNASA:Rapmaster2000: capt.hollister: I don't get all the Chavez hate. Sure, he's a socialist megalomaniac who hates the West in general and the US in particular, but he's hardly one of history's bad guys.

He's definitely not as bad as Isais Afewerki, but no one in America has even heard of Eritrea. You know how this works.

OK now you're REALLY making shiat up...I mean Eritrea, there's no country called Eritrea...I mean I bet it's it's right next to Farkistan and Greater Sharpkneealick oh and it borders Strong Badia.

Wait until you hear about the 55 million people starving in a place called "Myanmar". The CIA says this country doesn't even exist.

YixilTesiphon:macadamnut: capt.hollister: I don't get all the Chavez hate. Sure, he's a socialist megalomaniac who hates the West in general and the US in particular, but he's hardly one of history's bad guys.

Same reason as the Castro hate. Charges money for commodities the US used to get for free.

I think the embargo is the biggest favor we can do for Castro, but you do realize these governments are pretty evil, right?

Chavez has basically shut down or driven out every other industry in Venezuela except for oil extraction. He's put a lot of the oil money into social spending, so he was genuinely popular with the poor for a while. Venezuela's oil is very low grade so refinieries would rather use other sources if they are available. When the price of oil came down a few years ago, the money stopped coming in and the people started turning against him. His popularity is directly linked to the price of oil.

Rapmaster2000:ChipNASA: Rapmaster2000: capt.hollister: I don't get all the Chavez hate. Sure, he's a socialist megalomaniac who hates the West in general and the US in particular, but he's hardly one of history's bad guys.

He's definitely not as bad as Isais Afewerki, but no one in America has even heard of Eritrea. You know how this works.

OK now you're REALLY making shiat up...I mean Eritrea, there's no country called Eritrea...I mean I bet it's it's right next to Farkistan and Greater Sharpkneealick oh and it borders Strong Badia.

Wait until you hear about the 55 million people starving in a place called "Myanmar". The CIA says this country doesn't even exist.

OK see you just outed yourself. You are *really, *really* Really, making shiat up. I mean, Myanmar. it's that the place they make those shiny balloons or is that they naval Base in California where they Shot Top Gun.55 million people. Hell, that's impossible, there probably ain't 55 million folks in ALL of the US./I mean, if the CIA says so....it's got to be right, right?!?!?

capt.hollister:I don't get all the Chavez hate. Sure, he's a socialist megalomaniac who hates the West in general and the US in particular, but he's hardly one of history's bad guys.

I see you have never been to Venezuela. I was in Caracas in 2000, and in 2011, and it was even a bigger shiathole a decade later.

The country has to buy 70 percent of it's food from Colombia because they are not producing their own.

He also spent a ton of money buying old munitions from the Russians and threatened to roll into Colombia like a boss, when he realized that not only does Colombia have a standing army that is well feed, extremely patriotic, but have been combat hardened over the last 50 years with fighting farc. Plus the US is an ally and would step in.

YixilTesiphon:I think the embargo is the biggest favor we can do for Castro, but you do realize these governments are pretty evil, right?

I think a bigger favor we could have done for Castro would have been to act as a force for democracy and social justice in this hemisphere at some point in our history. But if we had, there wouldn't be any Castro, would there?

Doom MD:capt.hollister: I don't get all the Chavez hate. Sure, he's a socialist megalomaniac who hates the West in general and the US in particular, but he's hardly one of history's bad guys.

Fomenting class warfare, outright propery theft from citizens, allowing the murder rate to skyrocket, rampant corruption, etc. Part of my family lives in Caracas and the quality of life for them has taken an enormous turn for the worst. When I was a child the streets were generally safe to walk around in most neighbrohoods. Now as an adult I wouldn't walk them without a firearm and a damn good reason.

Dude, when I was there last year it felt worse than Mexico City or Medellin in 1989.

ArkPanda:Chavez has basically shut down or driven out every other industry in Venezuela except for oil extraction. He's put a lot of the oil money into social spending, so he was genuinely popular with the poor for a while. Venezuela's oil is very low grade so refinieries would rather use other sources if they are available. When the price of oil came down a few years ago, the money stopped coming in and the people started turning against him. His popularity is directly linked to the price of oil

Actually, you've got that backwards. As prices rise, the subsidies Chavez must supply to keep gas costs down rises as well. PDVSA gets more inefficient with the promotion of every crony such that higher oil prices drain coffers faster than lower prices. At very high prices, there isn't enough money coming in to cover the subsidy, but the subsidy is maintained.

Rapmaster2000:ArkPanda: Chavez has basically shut down or driven out every other industry in Venezuela except for oil extraction. He's put a lot of the oil money into social spending, so he was genuinely popular with the poor for a while. Venezuela's oil is very low grade so refinieries would rather use other sources if they are available. When the price of oil came down a few years ago, the money stopped coming in and the people started turning against him. His popularity is directly linked to the price of oil

Actually, you've got that backwards. As prices rise, the subsidies Chavez must supply to keep gas costs down rises as well. PDVSA gets more inefficient with the promotion of every crony such that higher oil prices drain coffers faster than lower prices. At very high prices, there isn't enough money coming in to cover the subsidy, but the subsidy is maintained.

Well I was thinking of everything, not just gasoline. As noted above they have to import food and that's all being paid for with a shrinking pool of oil money.

theflatline:Doom MD: capt.hollister: I don't get all the Chavez hate. Sure, he's a socialist megalomaniac who hates the West in general and the US in particular, but he's hardly one of history's bad guys.

Fomenting class warfare, outright propery theft from citizens, allowing the murder rate to skyrocket, rampant corruption, etc. Part of my family lives in Caracas and the quality of life for them has taken an enormous turn for the worst. When I was a child the streets were generally safe to walk around in most neighbrohoods. Now as an adult I wouldn't walk them without a firearm and a damn good reason.

Dude, when I was there last year it felt worse than Mexico City or Medellin in 1989.

I absolutely 100% believe in the accuracy of what you're saying. It's heart-breaking for me that I've got family living like that. The useful idiots that turn out for Chavez have no idea what they're rooting for.

ArkPanda:Rapmaster2000: ArkPanda: Chavez has basically shut down or driven out every other industry in Venezuela except for oil extraction. He's put a lot of the oil money into social spending, so he was genuinely popular with the poor for a while. Venezuela's oil is very low grade so refinieries would rather use other sources if they are available. When the price of oil came down a few years ago, the money stopped coming in and the people started turning against him. His popularity is directly linked to the price of oil

Actually, you've got that backwards. As prices rise, the subsidies Chavez must supply to keep gas costs down rises as well. PDVSA gets more inefficient with the promotion of every crony such that higher oil prices drain coffers faster than lower prices. At very high prices, there isn't enough money coming in to cover the subsidy, but the subsidy is maintained.

Well I was thinking of everything, not just gasoline. As noted above they have to import food and that's all being paid for with a shrinking pool of oil money.

Right right. It's definitely an economic house of cards. There's very little investment in future earnings. It's like milking a goat that you give smaller and smaller amounts of feed.

Doom MD:capt.hollister: I don't get all the Chavez hate. Sure, he's a socialist megalomaniac who hates the West in general and the US in particular, but he's hardly one of history's bad guys.

Fomenting class warfare, outright propery theft from citizens, allowing the murder rate to skyrocket, rampant corruption, etc. Part of my family lives in Caracas and the quality of life for them has taken an enormous turn for the worst. When I was a child the streets were generally safe to walk around in most neighbrohoods. Now as an adult I wouldn't walk them without a firearm and a damn good reason.

Not to mention he Nationalized the oil and cement industries there, and who knows what else. American and Mexican companies lost a shiat ton of billions when he did that. I think it's still tied up in the World Court.

Holocaust Agnostic:YixilTesiphon: macadamnut: capt.hollister: I don't get all the Chavez hate. Sure, he's a socialist megalomaniac who hates the West in general and the US in particular, but he's hardly one of history's bad guys.

Same reason as the Castro hate. Charges money for commodities the US used to get for free.

I think the embargo is the biggest favor we can do for Castro, but you do realize these governments are pretty evil, right?

Cuba has basically the best hospitals in the Western Hemisphere* and pounds a lot of money and effort into it. There's a reason they've beaten me several times in Pandemic even after I had managed to get Madagascar.

theflatline:capt.hollister: I don't get all the Chavez hate. Sure, he's a socialist megalomaniac who hates the West in general and the US in particular, but he's hardly one of history's bad guys.

I see you have never been to Venezuela. I was in Caracas in 2000, and in 2011, and it was even a bigger shiathole a decade later.

The country has to buy 70 percent of it's food from Colombia because they are not producing their own.

He also spent a ton of money buying old munitions from the Russians and threatened to roll into Colombia like a boss, when he realized that not only does Colombia have a standing army that is well feed, extremely patriotic, but have been combat hardened over the last 50 years with fighting farc. Plus the US is an ally and would step in.

He is a third world despot at it's finest.

It's a bit more complicated than that. But not much.

Thing is he *did* do some good for the country; literacy is up, the nation has more autonomy than it used to, but he wastes way too much in resources and social stability keeping a death grip on his power.

TheBigJerk:theflatline: capt.hollister: I don't get all the Chavez hate. Sure, he's a socialist megalomaniac who hates the West in general and the US in particular, but he's hardly one of history's bad guys.

I see you have never been to Venezuela. I was in Caracas in 2000, and in 2011, and it was even a bigger shiathole a decade later.

The country has to buy 70 percent of it's food from Colombia because they are not producing their own.

He also spent a ton of money buying old munitions from the Russians and threatened to roll into Colombia like a boss, when he realized that not only does Colombia have a standing army that is well feed, extremely patriotic, but have been combat hardened over the last 50 years with fighting farc. Plus the US is an ally and would step in.

He is a third world despot at it's finest.

It's a bit more complicated than that. But not much.

Thing is he *did* do some good for the country; literacy is up, the nation has more autonomy than it used to, but he wastes way too much in resources and social stability keeping a death grip on his power.

Doom MD:TheBigJerk: theflatline: capt.hollister: I don't get all the Chavez hate. Sure, he's a socialist megalomaniac who hates the West in general and the US in particular, but he's hardly one of history's bad guys.

I see you have never been to Venezuela. I was in Caracas in 2000, and in 2011, and it was even a bigger shiathole a decade later.

The country has to buy 70 percent of it's food from Colombia because they are not producing their own.

He also spent a ton of money buying old munitions from the Russians and threatened to roll into Colombia like a boss, when he realized that not only does Colombia have a standing army that is well feed, extremely patriotic, but have been combat hardened over the last 50 years with fighting farc. Plus the US is an ally and would step in.

He is a third world despot at it's finest.

It's a bit more complicated than that. But not much.

Thing is he *did* do some good for the country; literacy is up, the nation has more autonomy than it used to, but he wastes way too much in resources and social stability keeping a death grip on his power.

Stalin made the trains run on time

Closing a few radio stations and peppering some crowds with rubber bullets is hardly the moral equivalent of letting millions starve to death to keep building factories instead. Also, its typically Mussolini who "made trains run on time". If you wanted to use Stalin for your "bad guys doing some good stuff" example you should maybe mention stopping Hitler. Course that's kind huge and might bring out a little "uhhhh, maybe kinda worth it?" in your audience.(personally, I think its just pushing the question one step further away but ymmv)

Holocaust Agnostic:Doom MD: TheBigJerk: theflatline: capt.hollister: I don't get all the Chavez hate. Sure, he's a socialist megalomaniac who hates the West in general and the US in particular, but he's hardly one of history's bad guys.

I see you have never been to Venezuela. I was in Caracas in 2000, and in 2011, and it was even a bigger shiathole a decade later.

The country has to buy 70 percent of it's food from Colombia because they are not producing their own.

He also spent a ton of money buying old munitions from the Russians and threatened to roll into Colombia like a boss, when he realized that not only does Colombia have a standing army that is well feed, extremely patriotic, but have been combat hardened over the last 50 years with fighting farc. Plus the US is an ally and would step in.

He is a third world despot at it's finest.

It's a bit more complicated than that. But not much.

Thing is he *did* do some good for the country; literacy is up, the nation has more autonomy than it used to, but he wastes way too much in resources and social stability keeping a death grip on his power.

Stalin made the trains run on time

Closing a few radio stations and peppering some crowds with rubber bullets is hardly the moral equivalent of letting millions starve to death to keep building factories instead. Also, its typically Mussolini who "made trains run on time". If you wanted to use Stalin for your "bad guys doing some good stuff" example you should maybe mention stopping Hitler. Course that's kind huge and might bring out a little "uhhhh, maybe kinda worth it?" in your audience.(personally, I think its just pushing the question one step further away but ymmv)

If memory serves, a lotta those starvation deaths were because Stalin hated their "kind." One of those "how can you white people tell who you're supposed to hate" situations.

Thing is if you can get past "Chavez is evil and everything he does is evil" it's an interesting study. Like the Chavistas, his army of poorly-educated fanatically-devoted peasants that do all his voter suppression and political thuggery for him with minimal executive control. The nationalizing of the oil industry and its ups and downs (there were both, despite what some want to believe). And he's legitimately popular. Stupid or not, the people like him and believe in his particular brand of bullshiat. He may be a bad leader but he's THEIR leader, by popular choice.

The details are interesting, but more than that they are important. His posturing towards Colombia? He was never stupid enough to invade, he was making noise to A: gin up his supporters and B: keep Colombia from contemplating cross-the-border raids. The hypothetical raids? Chavez has back-room dealings with FARC and Colombia had good reason to not like that.