The fact is that most people commenting on this thread from a Fortune 500 office are doing it on a PC because their Fortune 500 company -- along with most Fortune 500 companies -- is locked into MS, and it doesn't look like that will ever change... or does it?

I would be interested to see how many Fortune 500s are still on XP these days. If a large company is going to have to make a seismic adjustment to get Windows 7 (assuming they never even bothered with Vista), which will involve replacing tens of thousands of PCs, they might as well consider Macs.

Could Apple market a sensible alternative to Windows 7 for the business environment? Would the long-term cost be lower considering the amount of time/cost/manpower it takes to support MS in the enterprise?

i work in IT and played with Vista and i've been running windows 7 since the beta.

biggest problem was the checkpoint VPN software, no x64 version. ours is years old and it ran just fine on x86 Vista and Windows 7. Checkpoint did make a special update to it when Vista came out and i ran the Vista version on Windows 7. if you run x64 then just use free vmware or the XP mode in windows 7.

AV software was another one, but this always happens with a new OS version. everyone has support contracts with symantec at $18 a seat per year and you get all new versions as they are released.

any PC from the last 5 years will run Vista and Windows 7. i'm running Vista Ultimate on an old P4 desktop in the office. and installed it on my mom's 5 year old Dell Inspiron and it runs just fine. Windows 7 is faster and hardware won't be an issue. Just upgrade to 2GB RAM which is like $20.

Nice feature about SL is the Exchange 2007 support. But that means you have to upgrade to Exchange 2007 or later if you haven't and that is very expensive if you don't have the MS rent a software plan which is like $400 per employee per year. We priced out Exchange 2007 and it was like $250,000 for our medium sized company. Most of it in the form of new versions of MS Outlook. Exchange 2010 looks even better and that's where most of the upgrades will probably take place.

the strength of Windows on the desktop is that if you run Windows Server 2008 and later you get a lot of nice management features that you may not get with Mac's.

Microsoft seems to be acutely aware of this deficiency. They've found an effective marketing message recently, asserting that Windows based PCs provide better values than Macintosh does. This is a good message to trumpet in a recession like the current one, that squeezes consumers hard. But over the long term, It has the disadvantage of conceding Apple's main point: that Macintosh is higher quality. Over the longer term this is a dangerous pitch. If the quality and usability of Windows+non-Microsoft hardware doesn't improve significantly, meaning that the actual quality gap between Wintel and Mac will persist, then the twin barreled weapons of truth and marketing smarts could do significant damage to Microsoft's brand. This is the outcome Ballmer is trying to deflect. It's not dumb, though it's a bit pathetic.

Yes, I agree -- I've also been saying this for a long time. The problem is that Microsoft hasn't got the kind of motivation they require do fight their way out of this box. I mean, they've been living in a velvet prison for so long, how much motivation would they have? Ballmer's comments just ice that cake. As if we didn't know it already, they are more accustomed to sneering at the competition than actually competing with them. It's worked for decades, so why not?

This company has 20 years of bad habits to conquer. I don't really think they can do it without a major overhaul, from top to bottom. They need to start at the top. Ballmer has to go.

IMHO, Steve Ballmer would do well to start acting a little more grown up and like a Fortune 500 CEO ought to. Sure, we only hear tidbits of everything he has to say in the course of a day but in that position, even little tidbits need to be carefully considered. Maybe it's just some shtick to make his employees think they are working for a cool and brash company. Guess what? They aren't.

What has to be alarming to Microsoft investors is Ballmer's preoccupation with Apple. All he's doing is drawing more attention to his competitor when, in fact, his competitor happens to make his own company look worse than it probably is. Seems senseless to me.

Lastly, why talk in terms of your company being a PC supplier when you aren't? Ballmer claims Apple computers are too expensive but, in reality, it should make him happy that they are expensive. If, all of a sudden, Apple lowered their prices by 15% across the board it's only going to result in fewer people buying Windows-based computers. If I'm Ballmer, I'd want Apple computers to be even more expensive than they are today.

Lastly, if I'm running HP, Dell, or another PC maker... would I want this guy running around talking about my hardware? Heck no. I'd want Ballmer talking about how great Windows is and then delivering on what he says.

Microsoft makes its money from volume OEM sales and corporate. They get a fraction of the retail price with the volume discounts.

They only sell a tiny, tiny, tiny amount of Microsoft Windows at retail. That is probably going to change a bit with Windows 7 given how fantastic it runs on older hardware. For the first time in a long time, you can actually improve the performance of your computer by updating to the latest version of Microsoft Windows.

Maybe, we'll have to see about that. I'm not going to say that you are wrong, but I'll be VERY impressed if Windows 7 actually runs "Good" on my Dell Latitude D620 with 2gig of RAM. I haven't been impressed with M$ since Windows 98 (of course remember that the bar at that time was pretty low).

I think the success of the latest Microsoft ads proves me right. Apple's Mac has been wallowing in the sub 10% market share for 20 years, and I don't see that changing anytime soon. Microsoft is coming off of one of its worst years and still made more profits than Apple. It is hard for Microsoft to grow its market share when it has it all. I'm sure you believe that Apple will have 90% market share soon and Microsoft will will go bankrupt. When you don't have a grip on reality anything seems possible.

Success of the latest MS marketing campaign ads has been reported by AdAge, the magazine for the advertising industry, who sure love to see more dollars spent on advertising. So if you want to hear that advertising works go ask the advertising industry.

Apple has been cherry picking the top of the PC market for years, they aren't interested in the morons who can't work out that higher upfront price = lower TCO.

Microsoft is a criminal organization, don't believe me, believe what the courts have said in judgment.

Believe me about this though, morons buying your product are a pain in the ass. Dealing with people who understand what they are buying is much easier, much more rewarding for both parties.

It isn't just rich people either. Rich people can drop $1000 and not think about it too much still if you let them down they don't come back, they are less swayed by advertising. Some poorer people save, research and buy more expensive products that they have determined to be superior.

Advertising sux, if you believe what the advertising industry says you are welcome to the world of the most advertised products.

I used to believe that Microsoft would end up as some investment/venture capital type organization but with Barmy in charge total collapse is more likely. I refer you to PanAm, once the world's largest airline, six months later gone - poof. Why? - security issues.

The largest growth sector for Apple is younger people with more disposable income. This, my friends, is why Apple is a threat. Right now most business owners are not willing to learn a new OS and train their staff on the new OS. But in 20 years, this more "Apple affluent" generation will be making the business decisions. And how many Mac users do you know that have switched to a PC?

There is an entire older generation that had to learn how to use a computer, and most of them that I know are just too afraid to learn a completely new OS. Mostly for fear that it will interrupt their current business workflow and because they have better things to do with their time and money.

I'm not saying there aren't plenty of devout young Windows fans. I'm just saying there will probably be more of a willingness down the road for businesses to accept Macs into their environment as the general population becomes more aware of Apple as a computing platform.

Maybe, we'll have to see about that. I'm not going to say that you are wrong, but I'll be VERY impressed if Windows 7 actually runs "Good" on my Dell Latitude D620 with 2gig of RAM. I haven't been impressed with M$ since Windows 98 (of course remember that the bar at that time was pretty low).

--LanPhantom

Vista Home Premium SP2 runs very nicely on my mom's Dell Inspiron 6000 with 2GB RAM. uses just over 1GB of RAM with Skype and Symantec End Point running.

Steve, without Apple who would you copy? Microsoft gives off the aura of a computing giant of the past. I recall back in the 70's the arrogance of a dominant three letter computer company, a deja vu moment for Microsoft.

It's times like this when Apple's very strict, very low key PR policy pays real dividends. Here's Balmer falling over himself to talk down the latest competition, whether it's Google or Apple or Linux or whatever, and in the mean time, his competitors - and Apple especially - are just letting their products do the talking.

The emotional side of me hates Ballmer as much as any other apple-red blooded enthusiast. But honestly, he is just doing what most all CEOs do. As the water creeps up past the portholes of the Titanic you glibly inform the passengers that everything is under control. It's just part of the script that you are expected to stick to. It's the corporate game. After all, no matter what happens, he's covered. If M$ goes belly-up tomorrow he'll retire to the south of France with more money in the bank than you or I can even imagine.

"At least when Apple attacks us, the primary attack that comes from Apple is, 'Hey, at the end of the day, we have the coolest hardware,'" he said.

Actually, very little of Apple's advertising is about cool hardware. Lately, the iPhone ads have been about features and software, not hardware design. And many of the Mac v PC commercials about about usability, viruses, security, etc. Have they ever even shown Mac hardware in those commercials?

It seems the only ones saying Apple has cool hardware is MS. Ballmer's saying it. Their laptop hunter commercials are saying it. Apple should be thanking them.

They advertise against Apple because there is no one else to advertise against. That is why the they bailed them out financially years ago. Apple makes Windows PC more appealing. People like to get a bargin. That is why the sell so many Chevy's.

EXACTLY

Also msft sells a ton of msft SW to apple clients. So why is he placing ads against his cust base ??

there are already Mac viruses. there is even a Mac only botnet with a lot of hosts on it and i bet most of the owners don't even know they're infected. google mac botnet and you will see.

There are 0 active OSX viruses. Are you talking about the botnet that was created from the TROJAN (not virus) hidden in pirated copies of iWork and Adobe Photoshop CS4 that affected a few thousand computers and had no other means of expanding. Meanwhile the Conflicker worm had a botnet 12 million strong in April, and despite all the press, most users didn't know they were infected.

The emotional side of me hates Ballmer as much as any other apple-red blooded enthusiast. But honestly, he is just doing what most all CEOs do. As the water creeps up past the portholes of the Titanic you glibly inform the passengers that everything is under control. It's just part of the script that you are expected to stick to. It's the corporate game. After all, no matter what happens, he's covered. If M$ goes belly-up tomorrow he'll retire to the south of France with more money in the bank than you or I can even imagine.

Your post makes a lot of sense. Really, what's he supposed to say? But at the end of the day Ballmer is CEO and he has to answer for these things. Hes not really helping his cause by throwing backhanded compliments at Apple in public or getting all tongue-tied. MS has some serious management issues, but this goes back to even before Ballmer. The entire culture at MS seems rather out of sync with the times. It's disturbing to watch. We're a looong way away from the glitz and glamour of the Windows 95 rollout. It's an entirely different ballgame in the consumer market these days.

There are 0 active OSX viruses. Are you talking about the botnet that was created from the TROJAN (not virus) hidden in pirated copies of iWork and Adobe Photoshop CS4 that affected a few thousand computers and had no other means of expanding. Meanwhile the Conflicker worm had a botnet 12 million strong in April, and despite all the press, most users didn't know they were infected.

isn't 12 million infected hosts more than the number of current OS X installations?

Microsoft makes its money from volume OEM sales and corporate. They get a fraction of the retail price with the volume discounts.

They only sell a tiny, tiny, tiny amount of Microsoft Windows at retail. That is probably going to change a bit with Windows 7 given how fantastic it runs on older hardware. For the first time in a long time, you can actually improve the performance of your computer by updating to the latest version of Microsoft Windows.

LMAO. Sorry dude. I'm just a regular Joe, not in the plumbing business, but even I know upgrades in Window improves nothing. What is your affiliation with MS? To make a statement like that you have to either be more than a MS software user or you were seriously joking

Microsoft makes its money from volume OEM sales and corporate. They get a fraction of the retail price with the volume discounts.

They only sell a tiny, tiny, tiny amount of Microsoft Windows at retail. That is probably going to change a bit with Windows 7 given how fantastic it runs on older hardware. For the first time in a long time, you can actually improve the performance of your computer by updating to the latest version of Microsoft Windows.

The Retail copies are going to Macintosh users needing to run a Windows vertical App or PC users downgrading away from Vista. The other thing is that share numbers only deal with sales and since PC users upgrade more frequently than Apple users therefore actual use share is increasing even more rapidly than sales share. With 50% of the Macintosh computers sold at the Apple Company Stores are being sold purchasers who have never owned a Mac, you do the math.

"Share versus Apple, you know, we think we may have ticked up a little tick," Ballmer said at the 2009 Financial Analyst Meeting, "but when you get right down to it, it's a rounding error. Apple's share change, plus or minus from ours, they took a little share a couple quarters, we took share back a couple quarters."

"Apple's share globally cost us nothing," he said. "Now, hopefully, we will take share back from Apple, but you know, Apple still only sells about 10 million PCs, so it is a limited opportunity."

"At least when Apple attacks us, the primary attack that comes from Apple is, 'Hey, at the end of the day, we have the coolest hardware,'" he said. "When you see the hardware, the PC designs that will come out this Christmas with Windows 7, I think that conventional wisdom can begin to really change. There is some really amazing, amazing work. So it is possible to get great hardware innovation, even when hardware and software comes from separate companies."

"We do not, say, like Apple, believe in low volume, very high prices, very -- Apple is a great company, does a fine job. But their model says high margin, high quality, high price," he said. "That's kind of how they come to market. We say we want big market share. But with big market share, you take a lower price."

"And are the ads working?" he asked rhetorically. "In an independent survey, we asked 18- to 24-year-olds—or they were asked, "Who offers the best value, Apple or Microsoft?" You can kind of see Apple was comfortably ahead despite the fact they — well, despite whatever the facts are. Our ads started in April of '09. You can see kind of what the perception changes have been so far."

A reasonable view. It certainly is advantageous in certain respects to have MS around. And frankly, Apple seems to look their best in a strong #2 position overall.

You know. MS' real problem, besides innovation, is they are fighting too many self-imposed battles on too many fronts. They find a lucrative market outside their core competency, build an outdated, inefficient infrastructure to support and penetrate that market and then fail to achieve significant success!

But by this time, they've sunk so much money into that market, they can't just pick up and leave. So ultimately they're bleeding money from the butt-kickings they're taking from entrenched companies in the market MS is trying to access...

Eventually, MS will either retrench themselves and scale back, succeed in the endeavor, or go broke in a game of winner take all

Actually, I probably have far more direct knowledge then you... and you know Steve how?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leonard

Actually, ideally, I would think the opposite. Steve Jobs would rather meet with people who don't use his product as if you can convince them to use your product, you gain new users. But frankly, I don't think Jobs cares what you use. He may try to use his RDF to get you to use his own products, and you probably would be, by the end of the meeting.

Actually Exec of companies plus anymore who deals with people outside the company on a daily bases do care that people who interact with them on a daily basis and makes a living off their product do care. I have person experience with this I tell people who walk on our company is not a good idea to walk in with competitor products and especially with senior management. Plus I know people who call on apple and theirs competitor and it is not unusual for them to have each competitors products so when they do visit with them they have their product verse the competitor.

"At least when Apple attacks us, the primary attack that comes from Apple is, 'Hey, at the end of the day, we have the coolest hardware,'" he said. "When you see the hardware, the PC designs that will come out this Christmas with Windows 7, I think that conventional wisdom can begin to really change. There is some really amazing, amazing work. So it is possible to get great hardware innovation, even when hardware and software comes from separate companies."

Yes, they do have the coolest hardware, but they also talk about the fact that they have by far the best software.

I'd rather be selling the best quality stuff on the planet at high profit margins than selling crap and watching my company flatline as it approaches the cliff of oblivion.

I wish one of Microsoft's stores was opening near me. I'd love to go there and watch the reaction of customers when they say, "Okay, I like this computer. I'll buy it," and hear, "Oh, we don't actually sell the computers here. How about a Zune?" Ha, ha, ha, ha....