(26-12-2011 02:44 PM)N.E.OhioAtheist Wrote: Sorry to make this post! We have enough fighting between the Christians and Atheist . No need to fight between ourselves. I may be over reacting to what I see as making Muslim or Islam as a escape for failed policies and ideas of our meddling Government. The Evangelical would love to throw every Muslim out of this country. That is not America! As much as I don't believe in any faith or religion I would not force my views on anyone. If you lived where I do their hated and would be just the same as the Jews in Germany. Believe me or not. It's red neck NASCAR heaven here.

Pretty damn insulting to the atheist NASCAR fan base.

We cant seam to find common ground on anything! I hope you are at least a atheist. We can go from there. I do like racing but just not into NASCAR, I am a official for GP,F1,and Cart . I did a little drag racing in my prime. I have my reasons for not liking NASCAR. The rules have changed and it's not true racing. I would black flag almost every driver. But opinions are like butt holes everyone has one. It's a well loved sport and done allot for racing in all categories. Thanks to NASCAR it has saved racing in general. It was going broke. Even Indy was on it's lasts legs. NASCAR saved it. Now the Red Neck Clan type that live here that love it, I cant stand. You know the type with the rebel flags. The ones who burned a cross in my new neighbors lawn because he was brown. They were not black but from India. They moved away in fear. That's the America we still live in today in rural areas.

(26-12-2011 02:44 PM)N.E.OhioAtheist Wrote: Sorry to make this post! We have enough fighting between the Christians and Atheist . No need to fight between ourselves. I may be over reacting to what I see as making Muslim or Islam as a escape for failed policies and ideas of our meddling Government. The Evangelical would love to throw every Muslim out of this country. That is not America! As much as I don't believe in any faith or religion I would not force my views on anyone. If you lived where I do their hated and would be just the same as the Jews in Germany. Believe me or not. It's red neck NASCAR heaven here.

Pretty damn insulting to the atheist NASCAR fan base.

We cant seam to find common ground on anything! I hope you are at least a atheist. We can go from there. I do like racing but just not into NASCAR, I am a official for GP,F1,and Cart . I did a little drag racing in my prime. I have my reasons for not liking NASCAR. The rules have changed and it's not true racing. I would black flag almost every driver. But opinions are like butt holes everyone has one. It's a well loved sport and done allot for racing in all categories. Thanks to NASCAR it has saved racing in general. It was going broke. Even Indy was on it's lasts legs. NASCAR saved it. Now the Red Neck Clan type that live here that love it, I cant stand. You know the type with the rebel flags. The ones who burned a cross in my new neighbors lawn because he was brown. They were not black but from India. They moved away in fear. That's the America we still live in today in rural areas.

No, I'm not a NASCAR fan, but I'm sure there are some atheist fans.

And I am an atheist - see my signature.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.

I just wanted you , guys , to stop being such hypocrit political correct vulgar atheistic nuns , so we can talk like decent human beings with mutual respect & mutual tolerance blablabla like mature grown-ups

By the way : to be honest , i do not see how we can respect each other's beliefs (atheism is just a belief by the way = a side effect & secondary product of that nihillistic hypocrit christian Paulusianism opium drug , worse : just a lower degenerate form of christianity even as Nietzsche said about humanism for example , no offense) , even though i do think that all beliefs, cultures , thoughtstreams do have some elements of truth , to some extent at least , including the atheistic ones like that unnuanced reductionistic deterministic "historic materialism theory " of Marx

or as 1 western philosopher said to a muslim thinker ( Tarik Ramadan ) when the latter was pleading for mutual respect & mutual tolerance between islam & the west , well, that philosopher said to him : there can be no mutual respect , there can be only mutual tolerance , even though i hate the latter because it implies a 'superior " side that has to 'tolerate " the "inferior " one = real tolerance can only be between equals : that universal equality of humans is best embodied by islam by the way

Fact is , we vomit each other , we hate -love each other , we are fascinated by each other, we despise each other ....even though we know that we , muslims , & you , westerners , can learn a lot from each other , can make a better world if only we would treat each other like mature equal people , i guess

Fact is : as great poet with no equal or match in the modern time at least , great muslim philosopher Sir Dr. Muhammad Iqbal proved in his great book " The reconstruction of religious thought in islam " = a masterpiece :

Like Iqbal thus proved : western thought is just an extension of the islamic thought, so

We have a lot in common , we should thus focus on that instead of focusing on our mutual differences

The west should stop trying to impose his thought, ethics ....liberal democracy ...capitalism ...to the rest of the world & acknowledge the fact that there are other thought , ethics , political social economic & other alternatives ....in the world than his

You should learn from post-modernism in that regard

Neither liberal democracy nor its economic wing = capitalism ,are the "end of history " like some of your lunatic thinkers said once haha

By the way , in that same book of Iqbal where he proved the islamic origin of the scientific method for example , he did also prove the fact that evolution itself was discovered by muslims centuries before Darwin was even born & much much more of those islamic contributions to modern time without which you would be still living in the dark ages by now : so, you do owe a lot to muslims & islam, more than you can ever imagine :

After discovering evolution , muslims were enchanted by its potential repercussions for humanity , celebrating & excited at the thought that human biological & spiritual evolution ,considering which the sky is not even the limit, that that potential evolution can go beyond Nietzsche's dream of the ubermens , in the islamic terms , that's why Iqbal sounds so "Nietzschean ", while having some good words for Nietzsche he somehow admired , while deploring his ultimate failure thanks to the evil influences of mainly both ideological materialistic Darwinism & Freudianism ...

Take care , folks , grow up & wake up

Happy new year to you all, by the way , best wishes

The muslims are not the new jews : but in essence they are somehow : [/b]muslims are thrown to the lions by the new Roman empire as the old one used to to do to christians , but that goes beyond the former situation of both he jews or christians :

After the fall of communism + the Soviet Union + the end of the cold war & the declaration of victory of the west with liberal democracy & its economic wing = capitalism , as "the end of history "= their final victory , so it seems haha , the west had to find a new enemy in order to project its own failures , wrongdoings, shortcomings , crimes , moral political economic decline & bankrupcy .....on ;

islam & muslims were the lucky ones , the west reviving the old historic hostility between islam & the west in the process hoping to score its final victory on the first ones , as a cover for western world wide domination ambitions by trying to protestantise individualise secularise liberalise islam as THE main left obstacle for western domination , in order to hide western political moral ethical economic & other failures , in order to stop muslims ' awakening , in order to impose liberal democracy, liberal ethics & capitalism on the muslim nations as a cover for domination . in order to impose the global western "new world order "

The best way to accomplish just that is via the neo-liberal capitalistic so-called free market world economy by imposing the western materialistic consumption cultures , materialistic values, materialistic liberal ethics ....as a cover for domination = a new subtle western neo-imperialism slavery

That all just for domination purposes because it's all about [b]interests , Geo-politics & balance of power , not really about human rights , values, democracy or about any of that other western Eurocentric 'enlightenment " "idealistic " materialistic crap , because western ethics , liberal democracy ...are just secondary products of the market that do not exist as such , do not exist as real human ethics ....values = just survival strategies ,

It's all about western worldwide domination thus : Machiavellistic & Nitezschean "beyond good & evil " stuff at work under the supremacy of the western materialistic a-moral so-called rational liberal ethics without a heart or soul that have been dominating in the world today , even between nations : Kantian, utilitarianist , contractarianist

neo-feminism tries so hard to improve those heartless liberal ethics via its ethics of care ;

read this great book concerning the latters : "Ethics of care : Personal, Political, Global " By Virginia Held

(27-12-2011 12:01 AM)morondog Wrote:

(26-12-2011 04:19 PM)AbdelZ Wrote: Happy new year ,folks, anyway

Hey AbdelZ Thanks for making me laugh again. I mean that genuinely. And Happy New Year.

Just to address this: we do not deny other "thoughtstreams, cultures and beliefs except our own", we do however glorify our *own* reason above any other authority. So if you want me to believe something you have to convince me. And because I've actually been bothered to think about religious stuff, convincing me of religious stuff is that much harder - not because I'm shutting my eyes and singing "la-la-la", but because I *will* challenge for proof or backup for any claim. But regardless, I, as many other atheists, can see the value of other people's thought processes - I find them interesting and I try to imagine how I would see things if I was, for example, you.
Oh OP, sorry for posting off-topic.

happy new year to you too , thanks, appreciate :

You really wanna be convinced ? take a look at the following then, i cannot convince you this way , it would cost me too much time to try to do just that i cannot afford to waste :

Like Fichte once said : it's all about ego , not really about ideals , seeking the truth , ethics ......

Well, not always , i must add

The key word to my behavior here lies in essence in the great brilliant artistic philosophical work of French atheist ( see how i do learn from atheists as well ?) nobel prize winner Albert Camus " The Fall " as an artistic "revenge " against the hypocritical existentialists Sartre & co .

(27-12-2011 05:23 PM)FSM_scot Wrote: AbdelZ atheism isn't a beleif by the way, it is a lack of beleif.

Could you also edit your posts Before posting in a thread please, they take up an entire page each you don't need posts that large.

ok , thanks

Well:

First of all , i wanted to 'confirm " the " evil inferior disgusting ugly violent intolerant backward barbaric ...." false image of muslims you have in your hearts , minds & especially in your collective sub-consciousness , collective memory , so to speak ...you try to hide under that hypocritical " tolerant liberal " mask while triggering your guilt sentiments in that regard knowing deep in your hearts & minds that the west is far from being 'civilized " as well despite your phony 'superior " paternalistic imperialistic nature in the sense that you think of yourselves as wonderful, enlightened , superior , beautiful....scientific rational logical empirical .."generous " enough that you are 'willing " to tolerate those 'evil inferior ..." muslims "inferior slaves " , in the hope to turn them into 'civilized equal to you masters " people some day & on your own western terms , according to your 'evolved " western thought, ethics .....like you did to African Americans for example ,turning them into copies of yourselves, to some extent at least

Since you , westerners , try to reshape the world to your own image , you think of yourselves as so wonderful tolerant generous evolved superior [b]good enough that you seem to be willing to tolerate those 'evil " muslims , hoping to make them 'evolve " as you did , 'evolve " to the only right path that leads to "paradise or to the Eldorado " on earth = secular liberal democracy

So, your muslim "slaves " under western neo-imperialism can be turned into "free evolved " peoples by adopting your own secular liberal views of the world = turning them into worst slaves in fact

That said , the following :

I used to think of myself as a good wonderful person , the most handsome guy, the most intelligent , the best lover , the best playboy , ......the most altruistic guy trying & contributing to 'change " the world while i was in fact just serving my own ego under that hypocrit mask :

Atheist French nobel prize winner Albert Camus ' brilliant philosophical novel "The Fall " had almost cost me a nervous breakdown ,making me reconsider myself & my "ideals " in the process : changed my life , making me realise what i was hiding to myself , what i knew all along

"The fall " was an artistic philosophical "revenge " against the hypocritical existentialists Sartre & co who had attacked Camus ' preious philosophical essay " The Rebel Man " , ridiculing it & expressing their doubts concerning the very mental intellectual philosophical capacities of Camus which had hurt the latter deep in his soul

"The Fall " has some cartesian elements as well as similarities with Dante's "Divine Comedy " , had something of Moliere 's "Don Juan " , had reversed that christian notion of confessions turning them into false confessions in order to make his discussion partner in a bar in Amsterdam confess his own sins

The hero or anti-hero of that novel was a Paris succesfull lawyer who used to think of himself as the most handosme, the most intelligent , the most good , altruistic , wonderful, generous ....guy until one freezing cold evening when he was walking on a bridge near the Paris river "La Seine " : he saw a person in the relative darkness on the bridge who looked like a woman attempting to jump from the bridge into the river

Abdelz
Your prodding and attacks do nothing for your faith or message. The whole Muslim faith came under the sword. Anyone who didn't convert died! I am no lover of your whole faith or religion. Islam Makes all women 2nd class and has real problems with male sexuality. If you cant look at a woman without a chubby theirs a mental problem with every Muslim. 2nd you do have a right to live here but not change our way of living. As soon as that is wanted you should go to the country that excepts that form of slavery for your women. Our women are not cattle or goats that you can control like a dog in the street. We also don't cut off hands for a mistake someone makes for the first time. We don't behead people here either. We don't stone women that have been raped or put them in prison. The laws in the Muslim country's are backwards and mid-evil. So don't act like your faith is wonderful, it is far from that. The Muslims here have ever right to practice their faith as long as they don't try to change our laws and we have no room for fanatics.

Let's get it over with quickly because i do not have much time at this moment :

I was just playing you like a violin or like a bulldozer , sorry

See how it is easy to play people ?

I will tell you why i did just that

Like Fichte once said : it's all about ego , not really about ideals , seeking the truth , ethics ......

Well, not always , i must add

The key word to my behavior here lies in essence in the great brilliant artistic philosophical work novel of French atheist ( see how i do learn from atheists as well ?) nobel prize winner Albert Camus " The Fall " as an artistic "revenge " against the hypocritical existentialists Sartre & co :

First of all , i wanted to 'confirm " the " evil inferior disgusting ugly violent intolerant backward barbaric ...." false image of muslims you have in your hearts , minds & especially in your collective sub-consciousness , collective memory , so to speak ...you try to hide under that hypocritical " tolerant liberal " mask while triggering your guilt sentiments in that regard knowing deep in your hearts & minds that the west is far from being 'civilized " as well despite your phony 'superior " paternalistic imperialistic nature in the sense that you think of yourselves as wonderful, enlightened , superior , beautiful....scientific rational logical empirical .."generous " enough that you are 'willing " to tolerate those 'evil inferior ..." muslims "inferior slaves " , in the hope to turn them into 'civilized equal to you masters " people some day & on your own western terms , according to your 'evolved " western thought, ethics .....like you did to African Americans for example ,turning them into copies of yourselves, to some extent at least

Since you , westerners , try to reshape the world to your own image , you think of yourselves as so wonderful tolerant generous evolved superior [b]good enough that you seem to be willing to tolerate those 'evil " muslims , hoping to make them 'evolve " as you did , 'evolve " to the only right path that leads to "paradise or to the Eldorado " on earth = secular liberal democracy

So, your muslim "slaves " under western neo-imperialism & domination can be turned into "free evolved " peoples by adopting your own secular liberal views of the world = turning them into worst slaves in fact

That said , the following :

I used to think of myself as a good wonderful person , the most handsome guy, the most intelligent , the best lover , the best playboy , ......the most altruistic guy trying & contributing to 'change " the world while i was in fact just serving my own ego under that hypocritical mask :

Atheist French nobel prize winner Albert Camus ' brilliant philosophical novel "The Fall " had almost cost me a nervous breakdown when i read it ,making me reconsider myself & my "ideals " in the process : changed my life , making me realise what i was hiding to myself , what i knew all along deep down

"The fall " was an artistic philosophical "revenge " against the hypocritical existentialists Sartre & co who had attacked Camus ' previous philosophical essay " The Rebel " , ridiculing it & expressing their doubts concerning the very mental intellectual philosophical capacities of Camus which had hurt the latter deep in his soul

"The Fall " has some neo-cartesian elements as well as similarities with Dante's "Divine Comedy " , had something of Moliere 's "Don Juan " , had reversed that christian notion of confessions turning them into false confessions in order to make his discussion partner in a bar in Amsterdam confess his own sins

The hero or anti-hero of that novel was a Paris successfull lawyer who used to think of himself as the most handsome, the most intelligent , the most good , altruistic , wonderful, generous ....guy until one freezing cold evening when he was walking on a bridge near the Paris river "La Seine " : he saw a person in the relative darkness on the bridge who looked like a woman attempting to jump from the bridge into the river but he didn't do a damned thing to save here .

The woman in question did commit suicide in front of his own very eyes but he did not do a thing to stop it

from that moment on, he was hunted by that cowardice of his & he began to doubt his self-image , taking a free fall on the way to "hell " ...

He realised he was not that wonderful or good , let alone generous ,brave ......he was "just in love " with himself or with his ego

So, he quit his job & went to Amsterdam where he spent his evenings in a bar there talking to potential visitors , making some false confessions in order to make them confess their sins to make them realise who they really are , by making them see their hypocritical faces in the mirror ...........

Try to read that great novel = worth a while

Many christian critics felt as i did that Camus was on the edge of belief , he just did not have the guts to take that very step, that novel of his was somehow a parody of himself & of those hypocritical existentialists who declar[/b]e their faith in the absolute freedom of the individual while implicitly adhering to marxism whose historic determinism is the very negation of any kindda human freedom , ironical enough

The bottom line is :

[b]Neither secular nor religious saints do exist , we all have bad & good sides , including the west & muslims , the west that thinks of itself as an angel of freedom, progress, enlightenment , democracy .......while the west considers muslims just ...pure evil..

Those were just some amusing innocent harmless pedagogic choc therapies = my own expression of my tough love for you ,guys, & for humanity haha

That makes me & islam your best friends ever , you just do not realise that fact as such yet , so