If that address doesn’t work for you I apologize- I seem to be able to get the UK Telegraph, but not the article.

It’s about a Muslim lawyer who happens to be the head man in the Muslim lawyer’s council ,and his speech saying Christmas is evil and should not be tolerated . Why do Christians put up with that ? The UK has become so soft-headed, it’s sickening . Imagine how far we’d get if we tried to publicly state that Ramadan is “evil ” . What a lot of ignorant nerve that bastard has; I don’t care whether he’s a lawyer or not, he’s still dumb as a box of rocks . But what can you expect of someone who’s brains have been simmered in the toxin called Islam since he was old enough go potty ? I don’t care what rank he is or what occupation, he’s been brainwashed and have to be regarded as impossible to reason with. How can we ever fight enemies like that ? And it’s a horrific thought that someone who can’t reason can be a lawyer.

I know we ( most of us ) don’t believe in the Christmas story, so does that mean we shouldn’t care if someone insults Christmas ? I think of myself as a non-believer, but then why do I get so defensive when I hear Christmas being belittled ? I’m beginning to sound like Bill O’Riley - he just won’t let the issue of the atheist’s sign being left by the Olympic Capitol Christmas nativity display in Washington here. He is genuinely angry..and says Christine Gregiour is not fit to be governor. It’s true..I am feeling very confused-

My question is this : as a non-believer does it seem sensible to defend Christmas ? I mean, it is going to happen sooner or later to you ( the atheist ) you will be questioned about your support for Christmas , and come on—are there any of us here who really reject Christmas to the extent we refuse to join the celebration in one way or the other ? Think about it : what’s more of a silly fantasy -Christmas or Santa Claus ? Me, Santa is what bothers me. If someone asked me why I’d say , because he makes fools of so many people..mostly kids, and the parents are all for it . I figured out when I was 5 yrs. old that the Santa stuff was a lot of nonsense , and I didn’t want to be one of the suckers who fell for it

I know we ( most of us ) don’t believe in the Christmas story, so does that mean we shouldn’t care if someone insults Christmas ?

Why should I care if someone bashes Christmas? Why should I care if someone bashes Ramadan?

Likewise, I don’t feel a need to defend Easter or any other religious holiday. I think there are positive things that come from Christmas, spending time with family, buying presents, etc….but I don’t think the specific holiday—Christmas is even necessary. Winter solstice has been celebrated in a variety of ways without making it a religious holiday.

I know we ( most of us ) don’t believe in the Christmas story, so does that mean we shouldn’t care if someone insults Christmas ?

Why should I care if someone bashes Christmas? Why should I care if someone bashes Ramadan?

Likewise, I don’t feel a need to defend Easter or any other religious holiday. I think there are positive things that come from Christmas, spending time with family, buying presents, etc….but I don’t think the specific holiday—Christmas is even necessary. Winter solstice has been celebrated in a variety of ways without making it a religious holiday.

To be fair, those things you noted, as well as the general sentiment of peace and charity during the solstice wasn’t anything that came from Christmas…it came from the Pagan celebration of Mithras which Christianity evetually usurped. Christians wanted a holiday in Rome that could compete with the general good will sentiments and celebratory elements of the Pagan holiday (also celebrated on the 25th of Dec) and copied it in whole.

Dee, you most likely don’t know a damned thing about Christmas and its origins to begin with. Why should any of us give a fuck what some random person thinks of CHRISTmas? Does it surprise you that a muslim wouldn’t celebrate Christmas given Islamic theology? You are manufacturing excuses to be paranoid as usual. There are a lot of ppl who hate ultra-capitalism and the materialistic worship that often accompanies it. It isn’t a common muslim tenant.

Why do Christians put up with that ? The UK has become so soft-headed, it’s sickening . Imagine how far we’d get if we tried to publicly state that Ramadan is “evil “ .

Of for fuck’s sake…the UK isn’t a theocracy you moron! And guess what…Christians come out publically and tear down and grossly misrepresent Islam on a daily basis! Hell, you do so with nearly every post you make on this forum every time you try to blame Islam for terrorism.

I know we ( most of us ) don’t believe in the Christmas story, so does that mean we shouldn’t care if someone insults Christmas ?

Why should I care if someone bashes Christmas? Why should I care if someone bashes Ramadan?

Likewise, I don’t feel a need to defend Easter or any other religious holiday. I think there are positive things that come from Christmas, spending time with family, buying presents, etc….but I don’t think the specific holiday—Christmas is even necessary. Winter solstice has been celebrated in a variety of ways without making it a religious holiday.

You seem to be a smart woman Lindajean, so why do you not understand ? Or maybe I didn’t make myself clear enough. That Christmas might be"bashed” as you put it, by people like those on this forum , or any other person who doubts the sensibility of religion ,is more or less to be expected, because we admittedly look down on organized religion. But we don’t usually do this with animosity or destructive self-serving intentions . Whereas, when a person of another faith; in this case Islam,is motivated by a desire to eliminate Christianity and replace it with his own ( let me choose the best words to describe this )....faith which happens to be morally defunct, inhumane and the most fanaticaly strick religious infatuation in this world today , it should be the concern of ALL citizens who believe in democracy and human rights—even the right to belive in any other religion , including Christmas.

And when I spoke of Ramadan, I was pointing out that when a person from a country that is hostile and sees our mostly Christian nation and it’s main religion as deplorable , comes over here and carps about our religious celebration , calls it evil and generaly expects he should have some say in how we celebrate ( or IF we celebrate )etc., that person is going way beyond the boundaries of what we should accept. It’s as if his mind is warped to the extent that he thinks his complaints are righteous and he doesn’t even realize he is stepping on anyone’s toes.

Nobody here in America tells him to keep his disapproval of our ways to himself , or voices complaints about his trying to tell us he should have someting to say about our holiday. I’m making an anology between how we’d be treated if we went into his country and told him all about his holiday, Ramadan,and how they should celebrate it. We’d probably be beaten or hung in a public square. Whereas he expects we should take his insults and demands with tolerance and great attention when he’s in our country…and we appease him. I guess our society expects us to get scolded for scolding the likes of him. Something’s wrong somewhere. We should ask ourselves why we’ve come to that kind of behaviour . It’s significant .

You seem to be a smart woman Lindajean, so why do you not understand ? Or maybe I didn’t make myself clear enough. That Christmas might be"bashed” as you put it, by people like those on this forum , or any other person who doubts the sensibility of religion ,is more or less to be expected, because we admittedly look down on organized religion. But we don’t usually do this with animosity or destructive self-serving intentions . Whereas, when a person of another faith; in this case Islam,is motivated by a desire to eliminate Christianity and replace it with his own ( let me choose the best words to describe this )....faith which happens to be morally defunct, inhumane and the most fanaticaly strick religious infatuation in this world today , it should be the concern of ALL citizens who believe in democracy and human rights—even the right to belive in any other religion , including Christmas.

All religions try to pull this bullshit. Not just Islam. And it isn’t surprising. Nor should it be. Even to you.

And when I spoke of Ramadan, I was pointing out that when a person from a country that is hostile and sees our mostly Christian nation and it’s main religion as deplorable , comes over here and carps about our religious celebration , calls it evil and generaly expects he should have some say in how we celebrate ( or IF we celebrate )etc., that person is going way beyond the boundaries of what we should accept. It’s as if his mind is warped to the extent that he thinks his complaints are righteous and he doesn’t even realize he is stepping on anyone’s toes.

The UK isn’t hostile to the US. Neither is the nation this lawyer was born in (Pakistan). And his ideas are pretty obvious seeing as a muslim would see Jesus as a false idol. Also, he didn’t “come over here”. He was voicing his beliefs in the UK…which isn’t a theocracy and as such various religious viewpoints are allowed to be voiced, even if you don’t agree with them. And calling the worship of a false idol (as a muslim would see Jesus Christ) “evil” shouldn’t be surprising. Christianity deems worshipping Mohammed as a false idol and as such as an act of “evil” too. How many right wing Christians in the US spread anti-Islamic propaganda daily and call it a religion of “evil”? Thousands. Likely more. Why is this surprising?

Nobody here in America tells him to keep his disapproval of our ways to himself , or voices complaints about his trying to tell us he should have someting to say about our holiday.

wut? o.0

American Christians do exactly that CONSTANTLY. Don’t even act like you’ve never heard it either. I know you watch FOX News and listen to Rush Limbaugh and Anne Coulter enough to have heard their rants about the “evils” of Islam. Hell, it’s not like it’s a challenge to point out nearly every thread you make is based on YOUR calling Islam a religion of evil. In fact, I saw on FOX News just the other day some dumb twat telling us live on her ‘news’ show that freedom of speech should be nullified on Christmas specifically to protect it from criticism!

I’m making an anology between how we’d be treated if we went into his country and told him all about his holiday, Ramadan,and how they should celebrate it. We’d probably be beaten or hung in a public square. Whereas he expects we should take his insults and demands with tolerance and great attention when he’s in our country…and we appease him. I guess our society expects us to get scolded for scolding the likes of him. Something’s wrong somewhere. We should ask ourselves why we’ve come to that kind of behaviour . It’s significant .

Again, he didn’t come over to your country and tell you a damned thing. “His country” is the United Kingdom where ppl are free to criticize any religion they like. The British aren’t hanging ppl or beating them in the public square for criticizing Ramadan last I checked. and he SHOULD expect to be able to freely express his views on Christmas and anything else seeing as he lives in a free country.

You are right about one thing…something is wrong here. When you are condeming someone for saying something stupid, and then asserting that we shouldn’t tolerate his right to say it, you are far worse than he could ever be. He isn’t imagining he is lives in a country where he is the only person not just allowed, but even entitled, to say something controversial whereas he decides whose external opinions are to be “allowed”. He would love the UK to be an Islamic theocracy but he has no illusions about the status of his goal at the moment…which is sadly more than one can say about you Dee.

Whereas, when a person of another faith; in this case Islam,is motivated by a desire to eliminate Christianity and replace it with his own ( let me choose the best words to describe this )....faith which happens to be morally defunct, inhumane and the most fanaticaly strick religious infatuation in this world today , it should be the concern of ALL citizens who believe in democracy and human rights—even the right to belive in any other religion , including Christmas.

I think you have it mixed up. It should not be the concern of me or anyone when someone is “motivated by a desire to eliminate Christianity and replace it with their own ...morally defunct, inhumane…” religion, if that motivation is confined to words. If those words become aligned with or turn into violent actions aimed at people, then and only then would one be concerned and take measures to stop them. Whether you like it on not, in the free world, these people have the right to say and think what they want. There is nothing wrong with thinking and saying anti-Christian words. (Otherwise I would be in jail.)

Likewise, there is nothing wrong with a child abuser talking and thinking about abusing children. Only acting on such words is what makes it immoral and illegal. In spite of the fact you and I would find such a person deplorable, he/she has done nothing wrong or illegal as long as it is only talk.

And when I spoke of Ramadan, I was pointing out that when a person from a country that is hostile and sees our mostly Christian nation and it’s main religion as deplorable , comes over here and carps about our religious celebration , calls it evil and generaly expects he should have some say in how we celebrate ( or IF we celebrate )etc., that person is going way beyond the boundaries of what we should accept. It’s as if his mind is warped to the extent that he thinks his complaints are righteous and he doesn’t even realize he is stepping on anyone’s toes.

It’s irrelevant what he thinks and what he says, Dee. Our Founding Fathers made that perfectly clear in the first amendment. There are laws against using “hate speech” but they are usually targeted at individual people. There are also words that are politically incorrect, like the “N” word, but it is not illegal (to my knowledge) to use the “N” word (perhaps in a hate crime it is) so bashing Christians is not a crime. Using violence to hurt or kill Christians is.

Nobody here in America tells him to keep his disapproval of our ways to himself , or voices complaints about his trying to tell us he should have someting to say about our holiday. I’m making an anology between how we’d be treated if we went into his country and told him all about his holiday, Ramadan,and how they should celebrate it. We’d probably be beaten or hung in a public square.

We probably would, so let’s not be stupid and visit theocratic countries and say insulting things. Likewise, if we drank alcohol, talked to men we aren’t related to and refused to wear a burka, we might end up dead or physically harmed.

Whereas he expects we should take his insults and demands with tolerance and great attention when he’s in our country…and we appease him. I guess our society expects us to get scolded for scolding the likes of him. Something’s wrong somewhere. We should ask ourselves why we’ve come to that kind of behaviour . It’s significant .

I would expect that he likes to see all the knee-jerk reactions such as yours whenever he opens his mouth. It’s not significant unless this person uses violence or enacts plans to use violence against us. Then it becomes very, very significant.