Dear Mocktwinkie, It is not racist to only like other white guys but.......

A preference suggests an existing choice between two possible options.

Ex.I am offered the choice between ice cream and cake.I can eat ice cream or cake but I prefer to eat cake.

Given the choice between the two options, one has the potential to engage either option. Since a person’s decision would naturally skew towards the option that provides him/her with the most enjoyment, a person who enjoys ice cream will pick ice cream…….but it is still a conscious and controllable choice.

When many people discuss what they find desirable, they use the word preference to describe the INABILLILITY to find members of a particular race sexually appealing.

If you find all men universally attractive but choose to only date white men, that would mean that you consciously selected against other races…which is the classic definition of racism.

If you are unable to find non-white people attractive, you cannot be considered racist. You cannot be judged on something that you do not have the ability to do.

Research has revealed that areas of the brain that control physiological attraction are similar in women and gay men. There is a physiological component to a gay mans inability to find women sexually attractive.Until a similar physiological or neurochemical marker is discovered in men who do not have the ability to find non-white men attractive vs. those who do, the argument that

“I can’t be attracted to x group of guys any more than I can be attracted to women.”

Is a completely bogus argument?

So we have a large segment of the gay population walking around with the inability to find non-white men attractive and we have no physiological evidence to suggest that this inability is innate.The only possible explanation that can be offered is conditioning. Gays have failed to create a culture that appreciates multiple forms of male beauty. The white male has been inextricably infused into our definition of what is beautiful.

If a person is capable of being attracted to all races, but only chooses to engage members of one race...that is racist. The bad thing about discussing sexual attraction in terms of preferences is that it the word preference suggests choice. When you say,

“I’m not into ……just a preference”

People view it as an assault on their particular race because you are suggesting that you at some point chose which races to like and decided against them. But if you only like men of one race, you came to this conclusion based on cultural factors, not physiological ones.AND PHYSIOLOGY DOES HAVE TO POP UP SOMEWHERE IN THE EQUATION.

If you don’t like black guys, and you don’t know why you don't like them, but refuse to admit that you are influenced by a culture that heavily promotes the idea that white people are more attractive than other people then when you use the word preference, you are basically saying that black guys ARE less attractive.

The word preference forces the members of the non chosen race to wear their unattractiveness, rather than the chooser being forced to acknowledge that the ability to perceive that race as attractive has been conditioned out of him.

To the extent that you refuse to acknowledge the racist standard of beauty in gay culture, you become a defender of it. While you may not be racist personally, you end up perpetuating the exact social climate that gave you such a narrow definition of what attractiveness is. The extent to which you refuse to acknowledge a social structure that benefits you at the expense of another race is the extent to which you contribute to INSTITUTIONAL racism in the gay community.

You don’t actually have to be a racist to contribute to a climate of racism.

I thought it was a insightful post but sometimes the emperor just doesn't want to know he's not wearing any clothes.

There's some stupid people out there but these people are not that thick. They know what's going on but don't want to face the reality of it, so they hide as a victim of their "preference."

We've all been there at some point where we see a hot, headless torso that we simply have to know more about. Then upon finding out the guy is Asian we find a way to tell ourselves it's not going to work because "I'm just not into Asians." The reality is we just want to remain in the mainstream club that gets to say we're not into Asians and make jokes about Asians. We're afraid of what our mainstream friends will say about us when they find out we hooked up with an Asian, or worse, ended up dating one. It's the same thing that makes us ask that dark skinned fellow if he's really from Brazil because it's so much sexier to be into Brazilians than it is to be into black guys.

"The only possible explanation that can be offered is conditioning. Gays have failed to create a culture that appreciates multiple forms of male beauty. The white male has been inextricably infused into our definition of what is beautiful.

This is what you get if you Google hot gay man.."

The conditioning you speak of I suspect often occurs long before men come out, or come to terms with being gay. In other words, how they were raised, the environments they were raised in. The gay community, whatever that is, can't de-condition this just by removing lots of one kind of images and adding more of another. Gay communities are very diverse and not a single group. So what you're seeing insofar as examples of porn etc is a resulting symptom of conditioning, rather than its cause.

oh who cares, this topic has been done to death. Why bother making a new thread instead of commenting on the dozens and dozens that exist.

I think if you find somebody attractive and they have a good personality you should date them regardless of race and not think about whether or not that means you are only attracted to some races and not others. Be attracted to individuals, there's no need to break it down into racial categories.

I usually do not jump into race threads as they are usually started in a quite maudlin and poorly constructed fashion by most OP's, which is not conducive to rational, considered argument and exchange of opinion.

Every now and again however, one racial-sexual preference themed thread such as this one, stands apart and inspires in me a considered and genuine response.

I would have jumped in this thread earlier but I wanted to finish listening to your voice recording first, to make sure my reply was a considered and accurate representation of my honest assessment of not only your argument, but my own views, rationale and experiences.

Nearly all of us have some sort of preference in skin tone and physical 'racial' characteristics when assessing another as a potential sexual partner. Of course this is usually not a fixed thing, anomalies are not rare, but it is clear that physical commonalities between those we desire are much more common that not.

In my own personal preference for example, I might find certain races in general to be more attractive than others, but that doesn't mean that I find everybody in other races that are not so much within my general preference to not be attractive, it just means that it is rarer that I would come across an individual in that group who I do find subjectively attractive, to me.

I am aware however that I, like everybody else, cannot be exempt from social conditioning that i've received in my life, and to what extent does that play on my preferences, I can only speculate.

Now, in relation to 'race' or ethnicity, why that is is, until proven otherwise (don't hold your breath), can be explained by the causal results of social conditioning and early environmental influential factors, such as what the people we grew up with looked like, the 'racial'/ethnic features of those that were the socially accepted as the archetypes of being attractive in the media we passively absorbed, or the schools we were in, or the movies we watched: the people who held allure and social capital in the eyes of those around us who decide which ethnicity is to be considered beautiful and set the standard for us to ascribe to.

As you say, 'race' is not a scientific term, it is a social one. Genetic characteristics obviously vary from individual to individual, and similarities can often be closer in people from seemingly diametrically far apart 'races', although, in actual fact, these mostly mark superficial, skin deep physical variances- as opposed to anything intrinsic to our immutable DNA.

Now, what about people who are white but prefer black/asian people as sexual partners? Surely one may here be tempted to find a fault in the hypothesis that social conditioning to the contrary is actually at work in determining our preferences in race and sexual preference.

I think it is fair to say anomalies will always exist in any social, statistical, study analysis.

Whether early sexual experience has a role to play (e.g. viewing a sexual image of a person on colour, in a movie, magazine, billboard advert et all) has something to play in this type of atypical but clearly defined , and sometimes even exclusive, attraction, is a possible theory, and one I would be inclined to pursue.

Anecdotal example of how I've seen how environmental factors influence the perception of race and their merit and attractiveness:

- I have a 4 year old brother.

- He is 'black' (social term, not genetic), but has the skin tone of light caramel (mixed-race mother who has parents of different 'races', and his father is too [although his racial/ethnic intermixing had occurred many generations before, so he considers himself full 'black', socially- but that's for another topic lol]- we have different paternal ancestry)

- When another child from his nursery group, a year ago or so, pointed out that he was 'brown', he denied it and proclaimed he was white, he was adamant. He then reluctantly acknowledged it after much persuasion, but clearly was not happy about this new revelation. My mother, myself and other family members explained to him that he was in fact 'brown' and is from a family of very proud, beautiful 'brown' people.

- So I became more aware of this self-image disconnect he seemed to have at such a young age. I would be on the computer with him watching his favourite shows, and ask him which characters he liked the best, and which was the prettiest, it was invariable the white character. I asked who was the ugliest, and it was invariably the black character.

- I realised that nearly all of the children's shows had the main protagonist as a white person, and the person of colour is more often than not the token, side-role inclusion.

- Of course, it wasn't hard to see how it would have been easy for a toddler to be influenced by these images that he was passively consuming, to come to the conclusion that white people are better, more attractive persons, and people of other colours are not as worthy of our attention and therefore, by way of consequence, as attractive. They didn't seem to possess the same amount of social capital as their white counterparts. Of course, we also live in the suburban part of London, UK, where the majority of people are white, his teachers are white, the people in authority he comes into contact with are more often than not, white. This is sure to play a role too.

- He does however go to church three times a week, and this church is populated by almost all black people (although the Pastor is white- position of power and prestige, again), and has many black playmates/friends/cousins/family members that he interacts with on daily basis.

- Still, this made me very conscious from that point onwards to make sure to find shows that did have people of colour as the protagonist such as the relatively new Disney movie with the black heroine, as well as books he was reading, youtube videos etc. The point of course to counter the overwhelming message from other social agents that 'white' people were somehow, arbitrarily and intrinsically, better than all other people of other colours/'races'/ethnicity/ancestry.

- He then, after my lead, started then quite excitedly started pointing out other 'brown' people in the shows that were on, and therefore, I hope, recognising their equal importance, even if others do not.

Now: do I think having a sexual preference for one 'race'/ethnicity over another is racist? No. I don't necessarily.

I do think however that is is important to try to understand our preferences and behaviour, and that a discourse about race and sexual preference is important, especially in the gay 'community'/social circles, as it doesn't only just effect who ends up in bed with who, but, often has a wider social impact pertaining to issues of social inclusion/exclusion, and psychological esteem issues in those that don't happen to be the genetic creme-of-the-crop of a particular ethnic minority group.

The genetic creme-of-the-crop of a particular ethnic minority group are partially included in mainstream gay life/adverts/media/events- although not nearly as much as those who are just objectively as attractive, but who happen to be white, or the next closest thing on the arbitrary totem pole, white/mestizo 'latin'.

I think it's important that a discourse about this isn't stifled and ridiculed, just because the effects of racial preferences by the majority, or those in power/influence, doesn't effect you.

It acutely effects others in society, and therefore is a valid topic of discussion.

UglyAmerican (RJ member) has a pretty interesting video where he describes his analysis on sexual practices and social organisation, and touches upon race and social capital in how it pertains to his findings:

METAMORPH saidI agree with nearly all, if not all, of what you've stated deki.

I usually do not jump into race threads as they are usually started in a quite maudlin and poorly constructed fashion by most OP's, which is not conducive to rational, considered argument and exchange of opinion.

Every now and again however, one racial-sexual preference themed thread such as this one, stands apart and inspires in me a considered and genuine response.

I would have jumped in this thread earlier but I wanted to finish listening to your voice recording first, to make sure my reply was a considered and accurate representation of my honest assessment of not only your argument, but my own views, rationale and experiences.

Nearly all of us have some sort of preference in skin tone and physical 'racial' characteristics when assessing another as a potential sexual partner. Of course this is usually not a fixed thing, anomalies are not rare, but it is clear that physical commonalities between those we desire are much more common that not.

In my own personal preference for example, I might find certain races in general to be more attractive than others, but that doesn't mean that I find everybody in other races that are not so much within my general preference to not be attractive, it just means that it is rarer that I would come across an individual in that group who I do find subjectively attractive, to me.

I am aware however that I, like everybody else, cannot be exempt from social conditioning that i've received in my life, and to what extent does that play on my preferences, I can only speculate.

Now, in relation to 'race' or ethnicity, why that is is, until proven otherwise (don't hold your breath), can be explained by the causal results of social conditioning and early environmental influential factors, such as what the people we grew up with looked like, the 'racial'/ethnic features of those that were the socially accepted as the archetypes of being attractive in the media we passively absorbed, or the schools we were in, or the movies we watched: the people who held allure and social capital in the eyes of those around us who decide which ethnicity is to be considered beautiful and set the standard for us to ascribe to.

As you say, 'race' is not a scientific term, it is a social one. Genetic characteristics obviously vary from individual to individual, and similarities can often be closer in people from seemingly diametrically far apart 'races', although, in actual fact, these mostly mark superficial, skin deep physical variances- as opposed to anything intrinsic to our immutable DNA.

Now, what about people who are white but prefer black/asian people as sexual partners? Surely one may here be tempted to find a fault in the hypothesis that social conditioning to the contrary is actually at work in determining our preferences in race and sexual preference.

I think it is fair to say anomalies will always exist in any social, statistical, study analysis.

Whether early sexual experience has a role to play (e.g. viewing a sexual image of a person on colour, in a movie, magazine, billboard advert et all) has something to play in this type of atypical but clearly defined , and sometimes even exclusive, attraction, is a possible theory, and one I would be inclined to pursue.

Anecdotal example of how I've seen how environmental factors influence the perception of race and their merit and attractiveness:

- I have a 4 year old brother.

- He is 'black' (social term, not genetic), but has the skin tone of light caramel (mixed-race mother who has parents of different 'races', and his father is too [although his racial/ethnic intermixing had occurred many generations before, so he considers himself full 'black', socially- but that's for another topic lol]- we have different paternal ancestry)

- When another child from his nursery group, a year ago or so, pointed out that he was 'brown', he denied it and proclaimed he was white, he was adamant. He then reluctantly acknowledged it after much persuasion, but clearly was not happy about this new revelation. My mother, myself and other family members explained to him that he was in fact 'brown' and is from a family of very proud, beautiful 'brown' people.

- So I became more aware of this self-image disconnect he seemed to have at such a young age. I would be on the computer with him watching his favourite shows, and ask him which characters he liked the best, and which was the prettiest, it was invariable the white character. I asked who was the ugliest, and it was invariably the black character.

- I realised that nearly all of the children's shows had the main protagonist as a white person, and the person of colour is more often than not the token, side-role inclusion.

- Of course, it wasn't hard to see how it would have been easy for a toddler to be influenced by these images that he was passively consuming, to come to the conclusion that white people are better, more attractive persons, and people of other colours are not as worthy of our attention and therefore, by way of consequence, as attractive. They didn't seem to possess the same amount of social capital as their white counterparts. Of course, we also live in the suburban part of London, UK, where the majority of people are white, his teachers are white, the people in authority he comes into contact with are more often than not, white. This is sure to play a role too.

- He does however go to church three times a week, and this church is populated by almost all black people (although the Pastor is white- position of power and prestige, again), and has many black playmates/friends/cousins/family members that he interacts with on daily basis.

- Still, this made me very conscious from that point onwards to make sure to find shows that did have people of colour as the protagonist such as the relatively new Disney movie with the black heroine, as well as books he was reading, youtube videos etc. The point of course to counter the overwhelming message from other social agents that 'white' people were somehow, arbitrarily and intrinsically, better than all other people of other colours/'races'/ethnicity/ancestry.

- He then, after my lead, started then quite excitedly started pointing out other 'brown' people in the shows that were on, and therefore, I hope, recognising their equal importance, even if others do not.

Now: do I think having a sexual preference for one 'race'/ethnicity over another is racist? No. I don't necessarily.

I do think however that is is important to try to understand our preferences and behaviour, and that a discourse about race and sexual preference is important, especially in the gay 'community'/social circles, as it doesn't only just effect who ends up in bed with who, but, often has a wider social impact pertaining to issues of social inclusion/exclusion, and psychological esteem issues in those that don't happen to be the genetic creme-of-the-crop of a particular ethnic minority group.

The genetic creme-of-the-crop of a particular ethnic minority group are partially included in mainstream gay life/adverts/media/events- although not nearly as much as those who are just objectively as attractive, but who happen to be white, or the next closest thing on the arbitrary totem pole, white/mestizo 'latin'.

I think it's important that a discourse about this isn't stifled and ridiculed, just because the effects of racial preferences by the majority, or those in power/influence, doesn't effect you.

I agree. It's most likely mainly a preference as we as humans just can't control what we're attracted to. Guys instead of girls? What are we being sexist that men are just more attractive? You see where I'm going with this? What if I(by some rare chance) don't like white ppl? Yet ppl don't call any attacks against white ppl racist which employs a double standard towards them.

I'm open to different races, but I'll be completely honest here. I'm attracted mainly(but not exclusively) to white men. There are some latino men I can't stand to be around for very long esp the ones that don't speak English well, but there's other Latino men that are hot too. I actually do like black ppl but prefer white or even other races because, idk its just something about them attracts them more to me. I can't really explain it. I'm also not attracted to most Asians, but I wouldn't say that's all Asians since I did find one(straight though) that I did find rather attractive. And because the shoe fits, I'm mostly attracted to masculine men. It's just the way I was wired I guess.

I think many of us get carried away and can't take rejection very well. When we're rejected, just as we often blame others for our problems like why we screwed up on something or by the cause of other events, we feel we can justify why we were rejected like it's no fault of ours and it's all his problem. "It must be because I was black!" "Oh, he's a homophobe" "Femophobe" "He doesn't like Asians? What a racist douchebag!". Get over it. He's just not into you for whatever reason. He doesn't have to be into you, and he isn't wrong to not be into you no matter how hot you or others think you are. I think we need to all accept that we're not going to please everyone, and not everyone has to be pleased with us for who we are. That's the way it is.