there's a difference considering they are NOT fighting for anyone's freedom, whether THEY believe it or not...

reality is different for everyone. Just because Uncle Sam says that everyone who serves in the military is fighting for world freedom and peace doesn't mean it's true. Think for yourself; question authority. If the US was so keen to invade IRAQ after a rogue terrorist group from AFGHANISTAN allegedly crashed some airplanes into the World Trade Center, then why the fuck don't they do anything about the war crimes in Venezuela, Ukraine, Korea? Why didn't they do anything in Uganda a while back?

I tell you man - well, you can make up your own mind, but it's more likely that serving in the US military will serve the purpose of the rich US senators and won't really bring peace or freedom to anyone. And apart from 9/11 (which only took 3,000 lives), the US hasn't ever been invaded or attacked, and has no real enemies. Of course they wouldn't want to invade Russia or China or anything because they have nuclear weapons, but still: why are there US soldiers stationed all around the whole fucking world, EXCEPT for the places where citizens are suffering under terrible dictatorships?

1 + 1 = 2 in my book, but you can make your own decision.

Lastly, the military is indeed similar to a corporation, and militaries are likely a necessary evil, even in this era. So I can understand the desire to work up the ranks and become some sort of high-ranking official and maybe a weapons or tactics expert - that's perfectly OK. What's NOT OK is that the US spends as much on their military as the next six nations combined, and sends hoards of young, uneducated men and women into terrible situations to do their evil bidding. I mean - if you tell some 17-year-olds from Wisconsin who have never even seen a black person, let alone learned another language, to go and "patrol the area and watch out for dissenters", what do you expect?

If you really need to use military force for any reason, doesn't it make more sense to send in highly trained individuals or units to take care of shit? I mean, like, send in some people who can speak multiple Arabic languages and knows how to blend into the culture and set up snipers or use intelligence to find out where the bad guys are and blow them up. You don't need to occupy the country with essentially kids who have no clue about what's really happening: they just have their orders to "patrol and kill anyone who looks threatening"

terrible. I will always believe in peace and freedom through love and discussion - not violence.

Be me in fallujah circa 2001
Working our way through the streets
Enter house of family, Mother, Daughter, Son
Father comes downstairs firing an AK
Fire back and kill him
Look at kid, can see his ribs and dark circles around eyes
Give him my only MRE
Continue battle

Found the kid later after we took the city. His father had been beating and starving the family as well as abusing the daughter. I never shot anybody that didn't shoot first. I was never given orders to shoot anybody who looks threatening. We had respect for the inhabitants, we wouldn't even touch the women to move them or move their Qur'an. People who haven't experienced it shouldn't even speak. I dont care if a family member or a friend served. You weren't there. You don't know the whole story, you can't speak.

BTW this is one of the few times I ever mention my service, ive been working the same job for 10 years and nobody there knows I served. Ignorance is something that is ruining this country.

it's OK to have an army - every nation does. It's NOT OK to play world police and spend TRILLIONS on "defense" while your citizens are uneducated, poor, starving and you continually allow more and more people into your nation. Why does the US need so many trained killers? Why do people in the military service industry receive more honor, attention and benefits than people in the food service industry? Why is it OK to be "patriotic" but not OK to think globally and question the decisions of those in power and to speak your opinion?

questioning it is a good thing. The disrespect that troops get just because you don't believe in what they are fighting for is wrong. They don't get to make the decisions. Congress and POTUS make all of the decisions, we just followed them because it was our job. It wasnt a job we could just quit because we would be arrested for going awol. I enlisted before 9/11 and I never thought I would be deployed. I had a baby on the way and no money to go to college. I decided to enlist to support my wife and incoming child. I never decided to go to fallujah, i never decided to kill anybody. The decisions I did made saved lives.

Food service employees dont deserve the benefits that I got. They don't spend 9 months away from their wife unable to see or call her. They didn't lose their best friend since first grade on the streets of a god-forsaken country. They didn't go home and find out that they lost their child because some guy decided to rape their wife so hard that she had a miscarriage. They didn't have to wake up at night seeing the faces of the men that they lost. Im no hero, thats for sure, but I do deserve the benefits that I recieved while I was in. Other than that I dont talk about it, I dont get benefits now, I dont tell anybody that I was in.

We don't need to hug them, we need to blow them up. You can't hug someone trying to chop your head off because you don't believe in the one true Allah. I seriously doubt you can come up with anything more hippie than "You can't hug with nuclear arms." I just threw up in my mouth a little.

there exist maybe 300 militant Muslims in the whole world. The US has spent 10 years and 30 TRILLION dollars trying to eradicate them. Meanwhile, Putin oppresses Russia and all the former Soviet Union, and Hugo Chavez is a despotic dictator of Venezuela and China and North Korea are under terrible dictative leadership.

But yeah - that the US sells weapons to small middle-eastern tribes so they can kill themselves and give them a reason to invade and take over the oil is really a great idea. Oh yeah - and the militant Muslims really have a leg up on the US army. All it would take is a few nukes or some really good trained killers to infiltrate and take out the militant Muslim groups. The US's army is 6 times as big as Russia, China and the UK combined!

I just don't get it. A moderately-sized army with some decent long-range weapons and highly-trained soldiers would be OK. But 10%-20% of today's youth going into the armed forces and largely missing out on higher education and shitting their pants because of the things they had to do in the Middle East is NO WAY to treat citizens of the "#1 nation in the world"

The more training that a soldier recieves the more money it costs. The average costthat the govt spends to send a poolee to basic is 40 grand, just sending them to basic. A special forces soldier costs us over a million dollars, and even then they arent indestructible. I don't care how much training you have, Its not like the movies where you can kill 300 men by yourself. All it takes is one lucky shot for them and you are dead. The AK47 can be accurate up to 400 yards...thats 4 football fields. now imagine that fully automatic being shot by 4 people, even if im trained thats a lot of lead coming at me.

And just so you know; a lot of combat veterans get higher education and function well in society. I became a welder, and most of the guys I served with went to college. Who remembers somebody who went back home and just became a civilian again? nobody does if they see somebody who has ptsd and cant function because of it. That one soldier becomes the picture of all soldiers. PTSD is bad, but not impossible to deal with. I go to therapy once a week and it works for me.

They've tried. I forget the name of the article but they sent special forces guys in. He ended up creating a militia that converted dozens if not a few hundred taliban to their side and started systematically wiping out terrorists. If it wasn't for the shitheads in the white house it would have worked. Unfortunately, right before they got to the tipping point someone over in Washington decided that they didn't like it and stripped him of his rank and benefits and ordered him back stateside. We could have won this war a long time ago A) If there wasn't so much red tape to go around and B) If it was easier to understand who we were fighting. You aren't allowed to just go around shooting everyone who owns an AK unfortunately. You can't even shoot someone who is blatantly following you and scouting for the enemy; an LT just got jailed for doing just that. So no, trust me, it's not the people in the military, it's the idiots up in Washington telling them what they can and can't do.

what do you suggest instead of our mass amount of grunts. A special forces operator costs the gvt over a million dollars to train. 10 grunts dont cost that. The grunts don't drain the budget. Maybe you just want us to fly around in planes and bomb them? Forget all of the civilian casualties, it is prohibitively expensive. A mass amount of grunts is the cheapest way to do it. There are plenty of useless officers, grunts and career guys in the military, but they do about as much harm as that one old guy at your job that at one point could kind of keep up but now is just there to sit and read the paper in the morning and grunt responses at you when you pass him in the halls. If you want to save some money assign somebody to monitor where all of the resources for the military go. Look at the food that is wasted daily, ammunition that they use just because they had some left over from training. I wasted a lot of taxpayer dollars following orders that protect the military. The grunts and the workers arent the problem, the decision makers are. People who arent in really dont understand just how little decison making power grunts have.

It would seem the solution is to severely reduce recruiting and spend the money on higher-quality training. Get good guys in there longer instead of rotating greenhorns and paying for expensive training. And of course get the soldiers with a broader skillset - foreign language, diplomacy, psychology, sociology, philosophy. I kind of imagine Japanese Buddhist soldiers who are one in mind, body and spirit, and who are a formidable foe. It'd be better to have 5 million highly-trained, well-oiled, perfect machines who are also well-read, well-informed, and highly skilled in more than just combat than 50 million high-school drop-outs with two month's boot camp and a rifle.

the training for all of those things costs more thats what im trying to tell you. Thats why a cryptolinguist (the translators) get offered 250k reenlistment bonuses because that saves the govt money on having to train more. To keep people over there longer would require more money too. 9 months is a long ass time to be deployed, i wouldnt do it again for how much i was paid.

Im saying the solution is to have better control over the decisions that are made, whether its to go in or not, where we go or the small things like whether to re-use the food/save any excess ammo from training.

The military budget needs reworking. We keep spending it on too much stupid shit like grooming standards and a new uniform every other year. Stop spending so much on deciding whether or not we should be able to have tattoos below the elbow, whether we should roll our sleeves, ect. It's absurd how much money is just burned away instead of being spent on useful equipment and training. If you haven't gathered already, I am in the military, and the amount of outdated and/or worn out equipment we use is ridiculous. However concerning the large amount of grunts and career military personnel in, I actually think recruiting needs to be severely cut instead of dropping currently enlisted, because that's where all of the experience is coming from. Granted some of the old timers refuse to drop the "old military traditions," but at the same time we can't just have a bunch of fresh faced dudes coming in with no prior experience to train them up. I'll agree with you that there are shit bags coming into the military, but what career path doesn't? My experience right now is it's a 50/50 split between worthless assholes and generally good people joining, as a generalization. I think that answers your question?

I just remember the recruiting officer coming to my high school and basically he preyed on the weak-minded or those with poorer grades. Hell, I had already made my mind up to go to college for engineering and the dude called me multiple times and even stopped me in the hallway to get me to join the army. He even called my parents at work. I told him no so many times, and he still said "well, I'll hold Tuesday at 3pm open for you at my office." I even got another couple phone calls to remind me, and a few when I didn't show up, and I finally had to yell at him and tell him I didn't want to go.

Anyway - I think you "get it". It's not perfect, and it's difficult to change such a large system, especially when military contracts are also a huge source of engineering and other high-paying jobs. I just always get kinda pissed off when people throw around the word "soldier" and "veteran" like they're some kind of holy angel sent from God and getting blown Uncle Sam. They are just people, like you and me, and deserve the same respect every human does, and they don't deserve any more special treatment than doctors, engineers, McDonald's workers and even Donald Trump.

All right- past my bedtime. Good talking with you and spread the knowledge, wisdom, peace and love!

Dunno if you're doing this for attention or what, but fuck it. I'll bite.
What year was that exactly? Recruiters don't operate like that. The only reason he would have an interest in you is because you talked to him first, nor would he have your parent's phone numbers unless you gave them to him.
Recruiters aren't desperate enough to go that far out of their way. They don't have quotas that they need to meet...
So, I'm going to call bull crap on that and say that you made that story up to further your point that you're supposedly too good for military service.

2001 methinks - in rural/podun Biddeford, Maine. I had transferred from the more affluent Kennebunk a few years prior, and because they didn't accept my grades or some shit, the put me in the second-highest courses, even though I told them I'd always been in the highest ones in Kennebunk. Needless to say, I quickly proved them and got onto the fast-track and the harder courses. I took the PSATs junior year, at which I kicked ass, and for some reason the local army recruiter from Saco (the next town over) was allowed to get his hands on the results to try and persuade kids. He got everyone, man - every single kid in the whole fucking school got a call from this douchebag. Oh yeah, and the army reserves even sent in their band to a special ceremony in order to try and get the musicians to join. They played a bunch of popular songs at the time (who let the dogs out, hey ya) as well as some classic rock numbers (rock you like a hurricaine, back in black) and tons of kids fell for it. I'm pretty sure the recruiter got hold of mine and my parents' numbers because of the PSATs. Well, actually - I didn't even have a cell phone back then, so it was just my home # and my parents' work # (they both worked at a local church).

I dunno man. Sure it was a long time ago, but I distinctly remember my mom telling me one night that the army recruiter called her at work when I didn't show up at our meeting. I told her that I told him that I didn't want to have consultation - I was going to college. But the dude just didn't give up. He tried complementing my intellect and my physical build and my musical talent and all that jazz, and I'm just like "dude - you can complement me all you want - I do NOT want to join the army. And if I did, I would do the research myself and call you to make an appointment. Stop harassing me, faget." (I didn't say faget, that wouldn't have been nice).

PS my telephone number at the time was 207-934-4351 I believe. My SSN is 007-88-5195

Can't say I'll spread those words, but as grumpy as I was talking to you at first, It was nice to talk to someone level headed with your views. As a side note I don't even like asking for military discounts, wearing my uniform off base, ect., but it does put a smile on my face when someone does go out of their way to thank me or help me out. Also, be advised, recruiters are shitbags, everyone should know that.

You proved my point: we can neither say all war-folks are stupid or assholes, AND we can't say they're first-class citizens. It seems to be popular right now for people to tout their "veteran card" and it instantly makes everyone think better of them. Examples:

Today someone tried to bring his fucking dog into McDonald's and got pissed off when the manager kicked him out.

vs.

Today a veteran came into McDonald's with his dog and the fucking manager tried to kick him out.

Could you imagine if we replaced "veteran" with "pedophile" or "engineer" or "nigger" or "jew"? I just feel that singling out the veterans (either positive or negative) is just plain wrong - the same as with any demographic.

there's a difference considering they are NOT fighting for anyone's freedom, whether THEY believe it or not...

reality is different for everyone. Just because Uncle Sam says that everyone who serves in the military is fighting for world freedom and peace doesn't mean it's true. Think for yourself; question authority. If the US was so keen to invade IRAQ after a rogue terrorist group from AFGHANISTAN allegedly crashed some airplanes into the World Trade Center, then why the fuck don't they do anything about the war crimes in Venezuela, Ukraine, Korea? Why didn't they do anything in Uganda a while back?

I tell you man - well, you can make up your own mind, but it's more likely that serving in the US military will serve the purpose of the rich US senators and won't really bring peace or freedom to anyone. And apart from 9/11 (which only took 3,000 lives), the US hasn't ever been invaded or attacked, and has no real enemies. Of course they wouldn't want to invade Russia or China or anything because they have nuclear weapons, but still: why are there US soldiers stationed all around the whole fucking world, EXCEPT for the places where citizens are suffering under terrible dictatorships?

1 + 1 = 2 in my book, but you can make your own decision.

Lastly, the military is indeed similar to a corporation, and militaries are likely a necessary evil, even in this era. So I can understand the desire to work up the ranks and become some sort of high-ranking official and maybe a weapons or tactics expert - that's perfectly OK. What's NOT OK is that the US spends as much on their military as the next six nations combined, and sends hoards of young, uneducated men and women into terrible situations to do their evil bidding. I mean - if you tell some 17-year-olds from Wisconsin who have never even seen a black person, let alone learned another language, to go and "patrol the area and watch out for dissenters", what do you expect?

If you really need to use military force for any reason, doesn't it make more sense to send in highly trained individuals or units to take care of shit? I mean, like, send in some people who can speak multiple Arabic languages and knows how to blend into the culture and set up snipers or use intelligence to find out where the bad guys are and blow them up. You don't need to occupy the country with essentially kids who have no clue about what's really happening: they just have their orders to "patrol and kill anyone who looks threatening"

terrible. I will always believe in peace and freedom through love and discussion - not violence.

Be me in fallujah circa 2001
Working our way through the streets
Enter house of family, Mother, Daughter, Son
Father comes downstairs firing an AK
Fire back and kill him
Look at kid, can see his ribs and dark circles around eyes
Give him my only MRE
Continue battle

Found the kid later after we took the city. His father had been beating and starving the family as well as abusing the daughter. I never shot anybody that didn't shoot first. I was never given orders to shoot anybody who looks threatening. We had respect for the inhabitants, we wouldn't even touch the women to move them or move their Qur'an. People who haven't experienced it shouldn't even speak. I dont care if a family member or a friend served. You weren't there. You don't know the whole story, you can't speak.

BTW this is one of the few times I ever mention my service, ive been working the same job for 10 years and nobody there knows I served. Ignorance is something that is ruining this country.

it's OK to have an army - every nation does. It's NOT OK to play world police and spend TRILLIONS on "defense" while your citizens are uneducated, poor, starving and you continually allow more and more people into your nation. Why does the US need so many trained killers? Why do people in the military service industry receive more honor, attention and benefits than people in the food service industry? Why is it OK to be "patriotic" but not OK to think globally and question the decisions of those in power and to speak your opinion?

questioning it is a good thing. The disrespect that troops get just because you don't believe in what they are fighting for is wrong. They don't get to make the decisions. Congress and POTUS make all of the decisions, we just followed them because it was our job. It wasnt a job we could just quit because we would be arrested for going awol. I enlisted before 9/11 and I never thought I would be deployed. I had a baby on the way and no money to go to college. I decided to enlist to support my wife and incoming child. I never decided to go to fallujah, i never decided to kill anybody. The decisions I did made saved lives.

Food service employees dont deserve the benefits that I got. They don't spend 9 months away from their wife unable to see or call her. They didn't lose their best friend since first grade on the streets of a god-forsaken country. They didn't go home and find out that they lost their child because some guy decided to rape their wife so hard that she had a miscarriage. They didn't have to wake up at night seeing the faces of the men that they lost. Im no hero, thats for sure, but I do deserve the benefits that I recieved while I was in. Other than that I dont talk about it, I dont get benefits now, I dont tell anybody that I was in.

We don't need to hug them, we need to blow them up. You can't hug someone trying to chop your head off because you don't believe in the one true Allah. I seriously doubt you can come up with anything more hippie than "You can't hug with nuclear arms." I just threw up in my mouth a little.

there exist maybe 300 militant Muslims in the whole world. The US has spent 10 years and 30 TRILLION dollars trying to eradicate them. Meanwhile, Putin oppresses Russia and all the former Soviet Union, and Hugo Chavez is a despotic dictator of Venezuela and China and North Korea are under terrible dictative leadership.

But yeah - that the US sells weapons to small middle-eastern tribes so they can kill themselves and give them a reason to invade and take over the oil is really a great idea. Oh yeah - and the militant Muslims really have a leg up on the US army. All it would take is a few nukes or some really good trained killers to infiltrate and take out the militant Muslim groups. The US's army is 6 times as big as Russia, China and the UK combined!

I just don't get it. A moderately-sized army with some decent long-range weapons and highly-trained soldiers would be OK. But 10%-20% of today's youth going into the armed forces and largely missing out on higher education and shitting their pants because of the things they had to do in the Middle East is NO WAY to treat citizens of the "#1 nation in the world"

The more training that a soldier recieves the more money it costs. The average costthat the govt spends to send a poolee to basic is 40 grand, just sending them to basic. A special forces soldier costs us over a million dollars, and even then they arent indestructible. I don't care how much training you have, Its not like the movies where you can kill 300 men by yourself. All it takes is one lucky shot for them and you are dead. The AK47 can be accurate up to 400 yards...thats 4 football fields. now imagine that fully automatic being shot by 4 people, even if im trained thats a lot of lead coming at me.

And just so you know; a lot of combat veterans get higher education and function well in society. I became a welder, and most of the guys I served with went to college. Who remembers somebody who went back home and just became a civilian again? nobody does if they see somebody who has ptsd and cant function because of it. That one soldier becomes the picture of all soldiers. PTSD is bad, but not impossible to deal with. I go to therapy once a week and it works for me.

They've tried. I forget the name of the article but they sent special forces guys in. He ended up creating a militia that converted dozens if not a few hundred taliban to their side and started systematically wiping out terrorists. If it wasn't for the shitheads in the white house it would have worked. Unfortunately, right before they got to the tipping point someone over in Washington decided that they didn't like it and stripped him of his rank and benefits and ordered him back stateside. We could have won this war a long time ago A) If there wasn't so much red tape to go around and B) If it was easier to understand who we were fighting. You aren't allowed to just go around shooting everyone who owns an AK unfortunately. You can't even shoot someone who is blatantly following you and scouting for the enemy; an LT just got jailed for doing just that. So no, trust me, it's not the people in the military, it's the idiots up in Washington telling them what they can and can't do.

what do you suggest instead of our mass amount of grunts. A special forces operator costs the gvt over a million dollars to train. 10 grunts dont cost that. The grunts don't drain the budget. Maybe you just want us to fly around in planes and bomb them? Forget all of the civilian casualties, it is prohibitively expensive. A mass amount of grunts is the cheapest way to do it. There are plenty of useless officers, grunts and career guys in the military, but they do about as much harm as that one old guy at your job that at one point could kind of keep up but now is just there to sit and read the paper in the morning and grunt responses at you when you pass him in the halls. If you want to save some money assign somebody to monitor where all of the resources for the military go. Look at the food that is wasted daily, ammunition that they use just because they had some left over from training. I wasted a lot of taxpayer dollars following orders that protect the military. The grunts and the workers arent the problem, the decision makers are. People who arent in really dont understand just how little decison making power grunts have.

It would seem the solution is to severely reduce recruiting and spend the money on higher-quality training. Get good guys in there longer instead of rotating greenhorns and paying for expensive training. And of course get the soldiers with a broader skillset - foreign language, diplomacy, psychology, sociology, philosophy. I kind of imagine Japanese Buddhist soldiers who are one in mind, body and spirit, and who are a formidable foe. It'd be better to have 5 million highly-trained, well-oiled, perfect machines who are also well-read, well-informed, and highly skilled in more than just combat than 50 million high-school drop-outs with two month's boot camp and a rifle.

the training for all of those things costs more thats what im trying to tell you. Thats why a cryptolinguist (the translators) get offered 250k reenlistment bonuses because that saves the govt money on having to train more. To keep people over there longer would require more money too. 9 months is a long ass time to be deployed, i wouldnt do it again for how much i was paid.

Im saying the solution is to have better control over the decisions that are made, whether its to go in or not, where we go or the small things like whether to re-use the food/save any excess ammo from training.

The military budget needs reworking. We keep spending it on too much stupid shit like grooming standards and a new uniform every other year. Stop spending so much on deciding whether or not we should be able to have tattoos below the elbow, whether we should roll our sleeves, ect. It's absurd how much money is just burned away instead of being spent on useful equipment and training. If you haven't gathered already, I am in the military, and the amount of outdated and/or worn out equipment we use is ridiculous. However concerning the large amount of grunts and career military personnel in, I actually think recruiting needs to be severely cut instead of dropping currently enlisted, because that's where all of the experience is coming from. Granted some of the old timers refuse to drop the "old military traditions," but at the same time we can't just have a bunch of fresh faced dudes coming in with no prior experience to train them up. I'll agree with you that there are shit bags coming into the military, but what career path doesn't? My experience right now is it's a 50/50 split between worthless assholes and generally good people joining, as a generalization. I think that answers your question?

I just remember the recruiting officer coming to my high school and basically he preyed on the weak-minded or those with poorer grades. Hell, I had already made my mind up to go to college for engineering and the dude called me multiple times and even stopped me in the hallway to get me to join the army. He even called my parents at work. I told him no so many times, and he still said "well, I'll hold Tuesday at 3pm open for you at my office." I even got another couple phone calls to remind me, and a few when I didn't show up, and I finally had to yell at him and tell him I didn't want to go.

Anyway - I think you "get it". It's not perfect, and it's difficult to change such a large system, especially when military contracts are also a huge source of engineering and other high-paying jobs. I just always get kinda pissed off when people throw around the word "soldier" and "veteran" like they're some kind of holy angel sent from God and getting blown Uncle Sam. They are just people, like you and me, and deserve the same respect every human does, and they don't deserve any more special treatment than doctors, engineers, McDonald's workers and even Donald Trump.

All right- past my bedtime. Good talking with you and spread the knowledge, wisdom, peace and love!

Dunno if you're doing this for attention or what, but fuck it. I'll bite.
What year was that exactly? Recruiters don't operate like that. The only reason he would have an interest in you is because you talked to him first, nor would he have your parent's phone numbers unless you gave them to him.
Recruiters aren't desperate enough to go that far out of their way. They don't have quotas that they need to meet...
So, I'm going to call bull crap on that and say that you made that story up to further your point that you're supposedly too good for military service.

2001 methinks - in rural/podun Biddeford, Maine. I had transferred from the more affluent Kennebunk a few years prior, and because they didn't accept my grades or some shit, the put me in the second-highest courses, even though I told them I'd always been in the highest ones in Kennebunk. Needless to say, I quickly proved them and got onto the fast-track and the harder courses. I took the PSATs junior year, at which I kicked ass, and for some reason the local army recruiter from Saco (the next town over) was allowed to get his hands on the results to try and persuade kids. He got everyone, man - every single kid in the whole fucking school got a call from this douchebag. Oh yeah, and the army reserves even sent in their band to a special ceremony in order to try and get the musicians to join. They played a bunch of popular songs at the time (who let the dogs out, hey ya) as well as some classic rock numbers (rock you like a hurricaine, back in black) and tons of kids fell for it. I'm pretty sure the recruiter got hold of mine and my parents' numbers because of the PSATs. Well, actually - I didn't even have a cell phone back then, so it was just my home # and my parents' work # (they both worked at a local church).

I dunno man. Sure it was a long time ago, but I distinctly remember my mom telling me one night that the army recruiter called her at work when I didn't show up at our meeting. I told her that I told him that I didn't want to have consultation - I was going to college. But the dude just didn't give up. He tried complementing my intellect and my physical build and my musical talent and all that jazz, and I'm just like "dude - you can complement me all you want - I do NOT want to join the army. And if I did, I would do the research myself and call you to make an appointment. Stop harassing me, faget." (I didn't say faget, that wouldn't have been nice).

PS my telephone number at the time was 207-934-4351 I believe. My SSN is 007-88-5195

Can't say I'll spread those words, but as grumpy as I was talking to you at first, It was nice to talk to someone level headed with your views. As a side note I don't even like asking for military discounts, wearing my uniform off base, ect., but it does put a smile on my face when someone does go out of their way to thank me or help me out. Also, be advised, recruiters are shitbags, everyone should know that.

electrical engineer. The only people I know who went to the military really didn't have the grades to get into a university. And most of them were really not that nice to others: bragging about how many bitches they banged or how drunk they got or how many fights they got into. I'm sure seeing some wartime action and watching your friends die in battle sobers you up, but it doesn't make you a better citizen, and you shouldn't get special treatment. I mean, the US picks fights with nearly every nation with oil in the world and sends off the innocent youth to do their bidding. They're nothing more than pawns in the stupidest of games.

Be me 18 in Marine Corps
Only ever been with my wife
Never Drink
Scored 95 on asvab, had a kid on the way and decided to support family instead of getting in debt in college and living off of the system.
Enlist June 2000
Get sent to fallujah and spend 9 months there doing my job to support my family. Can't quit because i would be court martialed and jailed.
I serve for 4 years, get out and have money to go to college. Become a welder and support my family like a normal citizen. Never tell people Im a veteran. Never get discounts.

What people don't know about me: I was shot twice in the leg, i still have a limp but i tell people its a sports injury. I saved innocent people from being shot and lost a lot of my friends, including my best friend from first grade. When I came home 9 months later I found out my wife had been raped while I was gone and had a miscarriage because of it. I lost my child because I wasnt home to protect my wife.

All I am saying is that your generalizations hurt. Ive been through a lot but I dont ask for shit. Good on you for going to college to be an electrical engineer, but there was no reason to insult other people who may have not gone.

You kinda chose the wrong place and ways to stick up for vets mate. Drawing attention to yourself will lead to more insults, despite the positivity it might bring. Personally, there's far worse and far better choices than the ones you made, and I wouldn't judge you without knowing the you down the road and seeing if you felt trapped with your wife because she was pregnant and such. 9 months to find out about something like a rape and miscarrage though is quite suspicious where you're wife is standing though. Still the only soldiers I can respect are the ones who enjoy war, not for the brutality, but for the camaraderie and that fight knowing what they're fighting and having personal reasons to want to fight it.

tl;dr I wouldn't believe your wife about the rape, you didn't make the best or worst choices, you still aren't a soldier I'd fight with

18 years old and married, great choice dipshit. Congratulations that you've never drank?? what does that make you a fucking saint? Grats on your 95 on asvab.. fucking easy mode shit's like made for fifth graders.

Not trying to butt in someone elses argument, but as an Army Brat, sister-in-law to a Navy guy, granddaughter of a Marine, niece of a Navy officer, and having 90% of my friends be those Army kids, this is why people join:
Travel Family Benefits Patriotism Family tradition
But regardless of all their reasons for joining, not one of them are 'brats' about it. I'm not saying there are not exceptions, but claiming most of them join because of stupidity is in itself stupid. I live on the Army base where the freaking NSA is based out of... So yeah, I guess anyone who is army and works here on the nuke, tech, and cyber side must have joined from 'not being able to get into college'...

read the rest of the posts, anon. I said that the military is indeed a "business" and one can work his/her way up the ladder, so to speak. But the sheer numbers of US kids who get into the service for the wrong reasons and then feel as though the world owes them for "protecting their freedom", "serving their country" or whatever else they might say is just terrible! I mean, people who work at the Apple store don't go around saying "hey, I'm an Apple employee I demand respect and discounts because I helped bring the iPhone into the world"...

just think about it. Nothing against soldiers or army people - I just have something against making people who work in this line to be "better" in the public eye. I mean - you're trained to kill - I was trained to design artificial hearts.

Jesus Christ, read what anon said, before you criticize him for not reading it. "not one of them are 'brats' about it" As in, they don't feel like they deserve special attention. They may receive special attention at times, but they don't go around saying "I was a veteran, give me a discount." Very different from your "feel as though the world owes them for "protecting their freedom", "serving their country"" They don't. Most of them do feel you owe soldiers...but not them. Just the ones that didn't make it back.

well I'm a veteran and I'm currently in college right now. Now I'm not saying every veteran is a god damn class A citizen but i think its very wrong to judge a group of people based on a few jerk offs you know from high school. You know to become an officer you have to have a 4 year degree? There are a lot of brilliant people i know who are in the military because they love the action and love roughing it out. just because someone chooses a different lifestyle from you doesn't make you better. I'm sure you're a smart do but i would say you were wise. That's all i have to say.

You proved my point: we can neither say all war-folks are stupid or assholes, AND we can't say they're first-class citizens. It seems to be popular right now for people to tout their "veteran card" and it instantly makes everyone think better of them. Examples:

Today someone tried to bring his fucking dog into McDonald's and got pissed off when the manager kicked him out.

vs.

Today a veteran came into McDonald's with his dog and the fucking manager tried to kick him out.

Could you imagine if we replaced "veteran" with "pedophile" or "engineer" or "nigger" or "jew"? I just feel that singling out the veterans (either positive or negative) is just plain wrong - the same as with any demographic.

there's a difference considering they are NOT fighting for anyone's freedom, whether THEY believe it or not...

reality is different for everyone. Just because Uncle Sam says that everyone who serves in the military is fighting for world freedom and peace doesn't mean it's true. Think for yourself; question authority. If the US was so keen to invade IRAQ after a rogue terrorist group from AFGHANISTAN allegedly crashed some airplanes into the World Trade Center, then why the fuck don't they do anything about the war crimes in Venezuela, Ukraine, Korea? Why didn't they do anything in Uganda a while back?

I tell you man - well, you can make up your own mind, but it's more likely that serving in the US military will serve the purpose of the rich US senators and won't really bring peace or freedom to anyone. And apart from 9/11 (which only took 3,000 lives), the US hasn't ever been invaded or attacked, and has no real enemies. Of course they wouldn't want to invade Russia or China or anything because they have nuclear weapons, but still: why are there US soldiers stationed all around the whole fucking world, EXCEPT for the places where citizens are suffering under terrible dictatorships?

1 + 1 = 2 in my book, but you can make your own decision.

Lastly, the military is indeed similar to a corporation, and militaries are likely a necessary evil, even in this era. So I can understand the desire to work up the ranks and become some sort of high-ranking official and maybe a weapons or tactics expert - that's perfectly OK. What's NOT OK is that the US spends as much on their military as the next six nations combined, and sends hoards of young, uneducated men and women into terrible situations to do their evil bidding. I mean - if you tell some 17-year-olds from Wisconsin who have never even seen a black person, let alone learned another language, to go and "patrol the area and watch out for dissenters", what do you expect?

If you really need to use military force for any reason, doesn't it make more sense to send in highly trained individuals or units to take care of shit? I mean, like, send in some people who can speak multiple Arabic languages and knows how to blend into the culture and set up snipers or use intelligence to find out where the bad guys are and blow them up. You don't need to occupy the country with essentially kids who have no clue about what's really happening: they just have their orders to "patrol and kill anyone who looks threatening"

terrible. I will always believe in peace and freedom through love and discussion - not violence.

Be me in fallujah circa 2001
Working our way through the streets
Enter house of family, Mother, Daughter, Son
Father comes downstairs firing an AK
Fire back and kill him
Look at kid, can see his ribs and dark circles around eyes
Give him my only MRE
Continue battle

Found the kid later after we took the city. His father had been beating and starving the family as well as abusing the daughter. I never shot anybody that didn't shoot first. I was never given orders to shoot anybody who looks threatening. We had respect for the inhabitants, we wouldn't even touch the women to move them or move their Qur'an. People who haven't experienced it shouldn't even speak. I dont care if a family member or a friend served. You weren't there. You don't know the whole story, you can't speak.

BTW this is one of the few times I ever mention my service, ive been working the same job for 10 years and nobody there knows I served. Ignorance is something that is ruining this country.

it's OK to have an army - every nation does. It's NOT OK to play world police and spend TRILLIONS on "defense" while your citizens are uneducated, poor, starving and you continually allow more and more people into your nation. Why does the US need so many trained killers? Why do people in the military service industry receive more honor, attention and benefits than people in the food service industry? Why is it OK to be "patriotic" but not OK to think globally and question the decisions of those in power and to speak your opinion?

questioning it is a good thing. The disrespect that troops get just because you don't believe in what they are fighting for is wrong. They don't get to make the decisions. Congress and POTUS make all of the decisions, we just followed them because it was our job. It wasnt a job we could just quit because we would be arrested for going awol. I enlisted before 9/11 and I never thought I would be deployed. I had a baby on the way and no money to go to college. I decided to enlist to support my wife and incoming child. I never decided to go to fallujah, i never decided to kill anybody. The decisions I did made saved lives.

Food service employees dont deserve the benefits that I got. They don't spend 9 months away from their wife unable to see or call her. They didn't lose their best friend since first grade on the streets of a god-forsaken country. They didn't go home and find out that they lost their child because some guy decided to rape their wife so hard that she had a miscarriage. They didn't have to wake up at night seeing the faces of the men that they lost. Im no hero, thats for sure, but I do deserve the benefits that I recieved while I was in. Other than that I dont talk about it, I dont get benefits now, I dont tell anybody that I was in.

We don't need to hug them, we need to blow them up. You can't hug someone trying to chop your head off because you don't believe in the one true Allah. I seriously doubt you can come up with anything more hippie than "You can't hug with nuclear arms." I just threw up in my mouth a little.

there exist maybe 300 militant Muslims in the whole world. The US has spent 10 years and 30 TRILLION dollars trying to eradicate them. Meanwhile, Putin oppresses Russia and all the former Soviet Union, and Hugo Chavez is a despotic dictator of Venezuela and China and North Korea are under terrible dictative leadership.

But yeah - that the US sells weapons to small middle-eastern tribes so they can kill themselves and give them a reason to invade and take over the oil is really a great idea. Oh yeah - and the militant Muslims really have a leg up on the US army. All it would take is a few nukes or some really good trained killers to infiltrate and take out the militant Muslim groups. The US's army is 6 times as big as Russia, China and the UK combined!

I just don't get it. A moderately-sized army with some decent long-range weapons and highly-trained soldiers would be OK. But 10%-20% of today's youth going into the armed forces and largely missing out on higher education and shitting their pants because of the things they had to do in the Middle East is NO WAY to treat citizens of the "#1 nation in the world"

The more training that a soldier recieves the more money it costs. The average costthat the govt spends to send a poolee to basic is 40 grand, just sending them to basic. A special forces soldier costs us over a million dollars, and even then they arent indestructible. I don't care how much training you have, Its not like the movies where you can kill 300 men by yourself. All it takes is one lucky shot for them and you are dead. The AK47 can be accurate up to 400 yards...thats 4 football fields. now imagine that fully automatic being shot by 4 people, even if im trained thats a lot of lead coming at me.

And just so you know; a lot of combat veterans get higher education and function well in society. I became a welder, and most of the guys I served with went to college. Who remembers somebody who went back home and just became a civilian again? nobody does if they see somebody who has ptsd and cant function because of it. That one soldier becomes the picture of all soldiers. PTSD is bad, but not impossible to deal with. I go to therapy once a week and it works for me.

They've tried. I forget the name of the article but they sent special forces guys in. He ended up creating a militia that converted dozens if not a few hundred taliban to their side and started systematically wiping out terrorists. If it wasn't for the shitheads in the white house it would have worked. Unfortunately, right before they got to the tipping point someone over in Washington decided that they didn't like it and stripped him of his rank and benefits and ordered him back stateside. We could have won this war a long time ago A) If there wasn't so much red tape to go around and B) If it was easier to understand who we were fighting. You aren't allowed to just go around shooting everyone who owns an AK unfortunately. You can't even shoot someone who is blatantly following you and scouting for the enemy; an LT just got jailed for doing just that. So no, trust me, it's not the people in the military, it's the idiots up in Washington telling them what they can and can't do.

what do you suggest instead of our mass amount of grunts. A special forces operator costs the gvt over a million dollars to train. 10 grunts dont cost that. The grunts don't drain the budget. Maybe you just want us to fly around in planes and bomb them? Forget all of the civilian casualties, it is prohibitively expensive. A mass amount of grunts is the cheapest way to do it. There are plenty of useless officers, grunts and career guys in the military, but they do about as much harm as that one old guy at your job that at one point could kind of keep up but now is just there to sit and read the paper in the morning and grunt responses at you when you pass him in the halls. If you want to save some money assign somebody to monitor where all of the resources for the military go. Look at the food that is wasted daily, ammunition that they use just because they had some left over from training. I wasted a lot of taxpayer dollars following orders that protect the military. The grunts and the workers arent the problem, the decision makers are. People who arent in really dont understand just how little decison making power grunts have.

It would seem the solution is to severely reduce recruiting and spend the money on higher-quality training. Get good guys in there longer instead of rotating greenhorns and paying for expensive training. And of course get the soldiers with a broader skillset - foreign language, diplomacy, psychology, sociology, philosophy. I kind of imagine Japanese Buddhist soldiers who are one in mind, body and spirit, and who are a formidable foe. It'd be better to have 5 million highly-trained, well-oiled, perfect machines who are also well-read, well-informed, and highly skilled in more than just combat than 50 million high-school drop-outs with two month's boot camp and a rifle.

the training for all of those things costs more thats what im trying to tell you. Thats why a cryptolinguist (the translators) get offered 250k reenlistment bonuses because that saves the govt money on having to train more. To keep people over there longer would require more money too. 9 months is a long ass time to be deployed, i wouldnt do it again for how much i was paid.

Im saying the solution is to have better control over the decisions that are made, whether its to go in or not, where we go or the small things like whether to re-use the food/save any excess ammo from training.

The military budget needs reworking. We keep spending it on too much stupid shit like grooming standards and a new uniform every other year. Stop spending so much on deciding whether or not we should be able to have tattoos below the elbow, whether we should roll our sleeves, ect. It's absurd how much money is just burned away instead of being spent on useful equipment and training. If you haven't gathered already, I am in the military, and the amount of outdated and/or worn out equipment we use is ridiculous. However concerning the large amount of grunts and career military personnel in, I actually think recruiting needs to be severely cut instead of dropping currently enlisted, because that's where all of the experience is coming from. Granted some of the old timers refuse to drop the "old military traditions," but at the same time we can't just have a bunch of fresh faced dudes coming in with no prior experience to train them up. I'll agree with you that there are shit bags coming into the military, but what career path doesn't? My experience right now is it's a 50/50 split between worthless assholes and generally good people joining, as a generalization. I think that answers your question?

I just remember the recruiting officer coming to my high school and basically he preyed on the weak-minded or those with poorer grades. Hell, I had already made my mind up to go to college for engineering and the dude called me multiple times and even stopped me in the hallway to get me to join the army. He even called my parents at work. I told him no so many times, and he still said "well, I'll hold Tuesday at 3pm open for you at my office." I even got another couple phone calls to remind me, and a few when I didn't show up, and I finally had to yell at him and tell him I didn't want to go.

Anyway - I think you "get it". It's not perfect, and it's difficult to change such a large system, especially when military contracts are also a huge source of engineering and other high-paying jobs. I just always get kinda pissed off when people throw around the word "soldier" and "veteran" like they're some kind of holy angel sent from God and getting blown Uncle Sam. They are just people, like you and me, and deserve the same respect every human does, and they don't deserve any more special treatment than doctors, engineers, McDonald's workers and even Donald Trump.

All right- past my bedtime. Good talking with you and spread the knowledge, wisdom, peace and love!

Dunno if you're doing this for attention or what, but fuck it. I'll bite.
What year was that exactly? Recruiters don't operate like that. The only reason he would have an interest in you is because you talked to him first, nor would he have your parent's phone numbers unless you gave them to him.
Recruiters aren't desperate enough to go that far out of their way. They don't have quotas that they need to meet...
So, I'm going to call bull crap on that and say that you made that story up to further your point that you're supposedly too good for military service.

2001 methinks - in rural/podun Biddeford, Maine. I had transferred from the more affluent Kennebunk a few years prior, and because they didn't accept my grades or some shit, the put me in the second-highest courses, even though I told them I'd always been in the highest ones in Kennebunk. Needless to say, I quickly proved them and got onto the fast-track and the harder courses. I took the PSATs junior year, at which I kicked ass, and for some reason the local army recruiter from Saco (the next town over) was allowed to get his hands on the results to try and persuade kids. He got everyone, man - every single kid in the whole fucking school got a call from this douchebag. Oh yeah, and the army reserves even sent in their band to a special ceremony in order to try and get the musicians to join. They played a bunch of popular songs at the time (who let the dogs out, hey ya) as well as some classic rock numbers (rock you like a hurricaine, back in black) and tons of kids fell for it. I'm pretty sure the recruiter got hold of mine and my parents' numbers because of the PSATs. Well, actually - I didn't even have a cell phone back then, so it was just my home # and my parents' work # (they both worked at a local church).

I dunno man. Sure it was a long time ago, but I distinctly remember my mom telling me one night that the army recruiter called her at work when I didn't show up at our meeting. I told her that I told him that I didn't want to have consultation - I was going to college. But the dude just didn't give up. He tried complementing my intellect and my physical build and my musical talent and all that jazz, and I'm just like "dude - you can complement me all you want - I do NOT want to join the army. And if I did, I would do the research myself and call you to make an appointment. Stop harassing me, faget." (I didn't say faget, that wouldn't have been nice).

PS my telephone number at the time was 207-934-4351 I believe. My SSN is 007-88-5195

Can't say I'll spread those words, but as grumpy as I was talking to you at first, It was nice to talk to someone level headed with your views. As a side note I don't even like asking for military discounts, wearing my uniform off base, ect., but it does put a smile on my face when someone does go out of their way to thank me or help me out. Also, be advised, recruiters are shitbags, everyone should know that.