averaging about 60k dps on single target, spiking to 100k, and for aoe im doing about 140k dps spiking sometimes at 300k depending on how many mobs per fight

especially following MY OWN spec, not a spec EJ's expects is top dps

my rotations is simple

serpent sting, murder of crows, cobra shot, black arrow, then explosive shot/arcane shot at times, with using glaive toss when available
after murder of crows is finished i hit rapid fire then my gloves(engineer) then stampede
after stampede i hit murder of crows again. followed by a readiness then rapid fire all while using arcane shot, when i am not using my cd shots/abilities
and i at sometimes can spam free arcane shots : )

averaging about 60k dps on single target, spiking to 100k, and for aoe im doing about 140k dps spiking sometimes at 300k depending on how many mobs per fight

especially following MY OWN spec, not a spec EJ's expects is top dps

my rotations is simple

serpent sting, murder of crows, cobra shot, black arrow, then explosive shot/arcane shot at times, with using glaive toss when available
after murder of crows is finished i hit rapid fire then my gloves(engineer) then stampede
after stampede i hit murder of crows again. followed by a readiness then rapid fire all while using arcane shot, when i am not using my cd shots/abilities
and i at sometimes can spam free arcane shots : )

I've tried running a Multi only rotation, but including GT is really a huge dps boost. I'm just not sure about DB and LnL though.

Btw, Draco, I'm curious as to why you yourself did only 100k on Elegon. I'm sure you have your reasons, I'd just like to know what they are.

"only", or "comparable" is the question here ? Comparable, Midwinter had like, 30% more damage taken on the boss (we only killed 4 and 4 sets of sparks, giving him a total of 10 debuffs, where they killed 6 sets and 5 sets). Along with the fact that I can see we did the boss in a very un-optimised way compared to that guild - I had no idea that the buff-area of Elegon is a *dome*, so you can see on Kripp's video that he's merrily jumping away to rid his debuff, and that he can stand with the 50% dmg buff untill the floor falls down without falling with it, with no issues. Our first 4 wipes was due to people falling down because they tried to push, and we just decided, "fuck it, everyone runs in and dps the pylons as soon as they spawn, none of this pushing bullshit".
So I'm expecting to do significantly more next week, knowing I can just jump to reset the debuff . But I still won't be able to push as high as Kripp or Kenny, due to the amount of sparks we kill compared to them.
And I'm not really sure I expect to, anyway - they're both awesome hunters, at an extremely high level, atleast equal to but possibly also better than me =p. The only reason I used it as an example is to show how stupid BM is, really - if you go and watch Kripps vid, you'll see he knew nothing about the fight and what he was supposed to do, which means he just stuck to the boss, and got carried on his spark and such.

If we say "only", then all of the above, along with raid leading on the only boss this tier that requires actual coordination will be my excuse :<. That, and taking a sub-optimal spec to ensure spark-burst (TOTH over Dire Beast, Lynx Rush over Murder of Crows).
Also, it was 108K, and still keeps me in the top 25 .

"only", or "comparable" is the question here ? Comparable, Midwinter had like, 30% more damage taken on the boss (we only killed 4 and 4 sets of sparks, giving him a total of 10 debuffs, where they killed 6 sets and 5 sets). Along with the fact that I can see we did the boss in a very un-optimised way compared to that guild - I had no idea that the buff-area of Elegon is a *dome*, so you can see on Kripp's video that he's merrily jumping away to rid his debuff, and that he can stand with the 50% dmg buff untill the floor falls down without falling with it, with no issues. Our first 4 wipes was due to people falling down because they tried to push, and we just decided, "fuck it, everyone runs in and dps the pylons as soon as they spawn, none of this pushing bullshit".
So I'm expecting to do significantly more next week, knowing I can just jump to reset the debuff . But I still won't be able to push as high as Kripp or Kenny, due to the amount of sparks we kill compared to them.
And I'm not really sure I expect to, anyway - they're both awesome hunters, at an extremely high level, atleast equal to but possibly also better than me =p. The only reason I used it as an example is to show how stupid BM is, really - if you go and watch Kripps vid, you'll see he knew nothing about the fight and what he was supposed to do, which means he just stuck to the boss, and got carried on his spark and such.

If we say "only", then all of the above, along with raid leading on the only boss this tier that requires actual coordination will be my excuse :<. That, and taking a sub-optimal spec to ensure spark-burst (TOTH over Dire Beast, Lynx Rush over Murder of Crows).
Also, it was 108K, and still keeps me in the top 25 .

Lol the only reason I said 'only' is because your parse on Feng is 8k (now 6k) ahead of the next SV hunter XD It seemed kinda weird to go from that to 108k. But yeah it's like madness, the numbers really aren't a good indicator of anything.

It also amazes me how many different things people can do to eke the maximum out of our simple rotations. For instance, if you watch Kripp's vid of the kill, he mentions that he watches the ground when he gets lag to get rid of it. It's a weird solution that I don't fully understand (no particle effects? does he not look at bad stuff aoe?) but hey, it improves your dps, even by a tiny bit. Me? I just mash merrily, stand out of bad stuff and wonder why everyone's beating me >.<

Lol the only reason I said 'only' is because your parse on Feng is 8k (now 6k) ahead of the next SV hunter XD It seemed kinda weird to go from that to 108k. But yeah it's like madness, the numbers really aren't a good indicator of anything.

It also amazes me how many different things people can do to eke the maximum out of our simple rotations. For instance, if you watch Kripp's vid of the kill, he mentions that he watches the ground when he gets lag to get rid of it. It's a weird solution that I don't fully understand (no particle effects? does he not look at bad stuff aoe?) but hey, it improves your dps, even by a tiny bit. Me? I just mash merrily, stand out of bad stuff and wonder why everyone's beating me >.<

If you watch the ground, your GPU and CPU don't have to render as much stuff on the screen -> Higher FPS.. Just log in WoW, go to your Local AH door, look inside AH and then look directly to the sky or ground, you'll know what he's talking about.

Fights like that are never an indicator of how good a class / spec can perform in high-end min/max guilds. In this particular fight where there's a big buff depending on how long the player stays somewhere completely skews the numbers in favor of how skilled (and fast) the player is to get the buff.

It's one of those fights that skill is actualy important, god forbid... I'm realy realy tired of people giving so much importance to patchwerk static fights, it's so "3 years ago", just let it go simcraft fanatics!

it's not about it being patchwerk to "matter" every guild has a different tactic on how to beat an encounter depending on their raid comp, gear level and skill level.

The only way to realistically compare two people of the same class and spec would be to have them do it in the same conditions (hey patchwerk style again), this is how you make a fair comparison and also how blizzard test the pve balance. They can't just say "but hey, what IF?" they have to design the game around what's tangible and able to be tested.

So when you ask: "hey why did u do xxx amount of dps different compared to this guy", the answer really doesn't matter and the only true comparison between people most are likely to accept are "patchwerk style" fights such as ultraxion in last tier, baleroc in firelands, saurfang during icc era etc.

Fights like that are never an indicator of how good a class / spec can perform in high-end min/max guilds. In this particular fight where there's a big buff depending on how long the player stays somewhere completely skews the numbers in favor of how skilled (and fast) the player is to get the buff.

It's one of those fights that skill is actualy important, god forbid... I'm realy realy tired of people giving so much importance to patchwerk static fights, it's so "3 years ago", just let it go simcraft fanatics!

Except that on a fight like Elegon, it depends less on personal skill, and more on the raids ability to carry you. Watch kripps vid, he literally knew nothing about the fight when they killed it, so he just staid on the boss and let his raid carry him to victory. Note, not saying Kripp isn't skilled, because he is, and I love to watch his videos, but that's not a sign of HIS skill - that's a sign of everyone else's skill, that they can allow him to derp around like that .

If you watch the ground, your GPU and CPU don't have to render as much stuff on the screen -> Higher FPS.. Just log in WoW, go to your Local AH door, look inside AH and then look directly to the sky or ground, you'll know what he's talking about.

it's not about it being patchwerk to "matter" every guild has a different tactic on how to beat an encounter depending on their raid comp, gear level and skill level.

The only way to realistically compare two people of the same class and spec would be to have them do it in the same conditions (hey patchwerk style again), this is how you make a fair comparison and also how blizzard test the pve balance. They can't just say "but hey, what IF?" they have to design the game around what's tangible and able to be tested.

So when you ask: "hey why did u do xxx amount of dps different compared to this guy", the answer really doesn't matter and the only true comparison between people most are likely to accept are "patchwerk style" fights such as ultraxion in last tier, baleroc in firelands, saurfang during icc era etc.

Patch style doesn't even really work because maybe 1 in 8 bosses ever are straight up DPS only. This is what I was trying to get at with my post. Our problem stems from target swapping. Where other range classes can excel when there are multiple targets, we fall flat. While patchwerk style is a great indicator of how well you do under simple circumstances, will of emperor is probably the best indicator of how far we are behind other classes. So what do we notice when we start scrolling down the page of WoL? We notice that casters are completely dominating fights where there are multiple targets or constant swapping, while hunters and melee are left out.

There is absolutely no reason to bring a hunter in 10 man if you have all buffs covered. The other classes handle everything better and bring more.

Patch style doesn't even really work because maybe 1 in 8 bosses ever are straight up DPS only. This is what I was trying to get at with my post. Our problem stems from target swapping. Where other range classes can excel when there are multiple targets, we fall flat. While patchwerk style is a great indicator of how well you do under simple circumstances, will of emperor is probably the best indicator of how far we are behind other classes. So what do we notice when we start scrolling down the page of WoL? We notice that casters are completely dominating fights where there are multiple targets or constant swapping, while hunters and melee are left out.

There is absolutely no reason to bring a hunter in 10 man if you have all buffs covered. The other classes handle everything better and bring more.

The only casters that outclasses hunters on emperor 25 man would be shadow priests, and warlocks. The others are fairly in-line with what hunters are capable of doing (remember, superior AOE). So that's a very bad example.
Hunters aren't "bad" at target switching, either. We're actually about as good as we get - as long as Serpent sting and Black arrow is left up on a target, we get the full benefit of the two (3 focus every 3 sec from SS, proc of LnL from BA), no matter what - which means we can lay the hurt on a newly spawned add, or something that needs to be bursted down, with virtually NO ramp up time, if you're just a little clever with what you're doing.
What we're bad at, is 2 target cleave. That is it. And for the currently open raid instance, that means the first boss ;_;.

i find it funny that people seem to want their class to be a cata arcane mage... 1 button rotation a monkey can do.

Every class has fine DPS what matters is the person playing, if your DPS "feels low" it means you skill is low. Good players have always and will always perform well, bad players simply QQ their class is broken.

I've finished the raid week, and my thoughts are that Hunter's are doing more than fine damage. I have many top parses in the instance, including 1 or 2 #1 overall parses (depending on if they're beaten or not) for our class. Just put in some effort and practice your rotation

I've finished the raid week, and my thoughts are that Hunter's are doing more than fine damage. I have many top parses in the instance, including 1 or 2 #1 overall parses (depending on if they're beaten or not) for our class. Just put in some effort and practice your rotation

How about The stone guard heroic ? Tried that today and I was miles behind the other classes due to having close to zero cleave ability in any hunter spec. Single target or proper aoe is okay but when you have 2/3 targets and there are dot classes or classes with passive cleaves I don't see any way it is possible to even get close to them.

How about The stone guard heroic ? Tried that today and I was miles behind the other classes due to having close to zero cleave ability in any hunter spec. Single target or proper aoe is okay but when you have 2/3 targets and there are dot classes or classes with passive cleaves I don't see any way it is possible to even get close to them.

It's not possible, which is why I'll be asking to sit for H Stone Guard attempts tonight. There's no reason to bring Hunters to that fight. Even though I'm our best ranged DPS, I have no hope of keeping up with Locks, Mages, Warriors, Rogues, or Ferals on that fight. None whatsoever. It's silly to bring a Hunter for Stone Guard in a 25man if you have other options.

Doesn't mean we're bad overall though, just that there's a specific fight (like Will of the Emperor/Elegon for melee) that we aren't good at. I'm comfortable with that. At least our single target is on par with everyone else.

It's not possible, which is why I'll be asking to sit for H Stone Guard attempts tonight. There's no reason to bring Hunters to that fight. Even though I'm our best ranged DPS, I have no hope of keeping up with Locks, Mages, Warriors, Rogues, or Ferals on that fight. None whatsoever. It's silly to bring a Hunter for Stone Guard in a 25man if you have other options.

Doesn't mean we're bad overall though, just that there's a specific fight (like Will of the Emperor/Elegon for melee) that we aren't good at. I'm comfortable with that. At least our single target is on par with everyone else.

Actually, we found that hunters are probably the best class for lighting up the floor-tiles in that encounter (we had 2x people assigned to it non-stop, as 2 people doing no dps was much better than losing out on what ended up as a 150-200% damage buff towards the end).
Main reasons being -
Passive dmg reduc (15%, like many other classes, but still better than what rogues/ferals get).
8 sec speed boost after disengage (which broke the snare/slow that the petrified effect puts on you - the further into the petrification you are, the slower you'll be, and the harder it is to light up tiles. If you disengage, it completly ignores that).
Master's Call, again, to break the speed buff (and to take the crystal bombs).
Symbiosis from a druid for Dash, to use after the tiles are lit down (to quickly get stacks up again).
Along with that, we had a priest focusing on me and the other tile-lighter (a feral druid), for the B&S speed-effect.

Not to mention that if you are comfortable, you can be BM, and have your pet moving from boss to boss while lighting up the tiles, and just hit kill command/dire beast/lynx rush/stampede on cooldown - you'll still end up doing like, 50K dps (which is better than any other class). I didn't do this, as I found it more important to get as many buffs out on the floor as possible, but with a little practise, it's viable.