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So let me get this straight. Because the boat was only sailing away in sight while we're explicitly shown all of the sand snakes and Ellaria watching it leave, because we didn't see it crest the horizon, we can't say for sure that they didn't get on the boat?

What? Am I reading that wrong?

10 minutes ago, ssls6 said:

To assume what we saw is as flawed also assumes you know exactly what is going on which none of us really do. It is what it is, flow with it and see where it goes. If you don't like the end result then stamp your feet and shake your fists. I think it's premature to do that now.

Getting revenge for dead Martells by killing Martells isn't going away. Ellaria and the Sand Snakes bastard status and lack of a spot in the inheritance order aren't going away. The combined Trystane painting the eyes for Myrcella and Jaime's letter (shown in detail on ATT apparently) aren't going away.

If they somehow can spin that into a remotely coherent story, I will admit I'm wrong. But this is as bad as I've seen in a fictional plot that wasn't specifically a parody.

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1) Brianne killed Stannis within sight of Winterfell, its not a leap of faith nor a torturous logic to assume that when she heard hounds (who actually could be heard for miles) she would pursue them to investigate the commotion?

Well, we couldn't hear any hounds after they disappeared fled when the fight between Brienne and the Search party broke out (because they are tracking hounds, not fighting hounds :lol:).

So they are obviously super sneaky silent hounds that can't even be heard from a few yards away, let alone miles.

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I don't understand how anyone would be confused by this. They just traveled to Kingslanding and it took roughly the same amount of time it took Trystane and Jamie.

Did you need a scene where Ser Barristan books a trip to Essos? Or could you figure out how that works?

I'm shocked that everyone would thinking wasting time showing sand snakes on a boat would make this episode better. The episode had so little time for everything else. You might as well be asking how all the characters, except Tywin, survive for 4 years without pooping.

Little time for everything else? What I don't understand is why a show that really is supposed to be an hour long only last 50 minutes.

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Maybe they something else to do in Kings Landing, like say murder Tommen?

So go to KL and murder Tommen, that doesn't prevent you of killing Trystane when you had a better chance.

8 minutes ago, ssls6 said:

You don't need to be very creative to think....

Killing Tristan in KL could be considered a Lannister action. If Jamie/Cersi had killed Tristan then the Sand Snakes would have been happy and Doran would not have needed to be killed. Since Jamie did not (the note), they had to step in. Maybe the Sand Snakes were sent to KL for other reasons as well with the additional assignment that if the Lannisters did not kill Tristan then they should?

To assume what we saw is as flawed also assumes you know exactly what is going on which none of us really do. It is what it is, flow with it and see where it goes. If you don't like the end result then stamp your feet and shake your fists. I think it's premature to do that now.

So now you're assuming that the SS only went to KL after receiving the note? That means that Trystane stayed on the anchored boat while the message went from KL to Dorne and the SS traveled from Dorne to KL. Seems logic.

2 minutes ago, Denam_Pavel said:

It's a sailboat, it needs favorable winds to get places. And KL was quite a bit further away then the horizon respective of the docks in the Water Gardens.

So how did the SS reached the horizon boat in order to travel in it? Did they have a motorized boat? Or some boat with thousand of rowers? If not they certainly took a lot of time to reach said boat. And then what, they infiltrated the boat and stayed hidden for the rest of the journey, hopping that Neither Jaime, Bronn or Trystane see them? Why? What's the point?

If the objective was to kill Trystane, poisoning him at the same time that Myrcella would have been way easier an more certain. If the objective was to go to KL, they could just have continued their trip in the second boat, without having to bend logic to infiltrate Trystane boat.

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Regardless of how massive a plothole them getting abroad the boat is, I'd say they journeyed to KL hidden on THIS boat. And aren't just in KL for Trystane either.

Unless they got a small rowboat to catch up to the boat, they were standing on the docks while the boat was at horizon.

1 hour ago, Valetudo said:

Why would they do that when they could just have kissed him like Myrcella and be done with it? Instead, they decided to make a dangerous boat trip during weeks and hoped that everything would turn out miraculously as they planned after reaching KL.

They must be bad gamblers, replacing a certain plan for a dubious one at best, and a time consuming one at that.

I would say its not a plot-hole but pretty simple plan and explanation for that. Killing Trystane at same time as Myrcella (and attacking Doran too) is actually creating complicated scenarios instead of simple and effective ones.

Before Doran forced Ellaria and SS to swear obedience to him and promise not kill Myrcella, their plan was just killing Myrcella and revenge on Lannisters. When Doran forced them to swear oaths, he pretty much told them there is no plan for revenge, just keeping Dorne in peace. Furthermore, its obvious that Doran was on guard against Ellaria before that, so they couldn't plan a coup. After that Ellaria and SS decided to off both Doran and Trystane, at the same time as Doran relaxed his suspicions of Ellaria since she swore an oath, which I would assume is usually pretty binding.

Also, they wanted Myrcella to be just a start of revenge on Lannisters, so they need to get access to Kings Landing. Where they are now.

If they kissed both Myrcella and Trystane, Doran would have gotten suspicious since only reason Ellaria kissed Myrcella was in-course of apology/forgiveness moment while Trystane wasn't that close to Ellaria for her to kiss him randomly goodbye without raising suspicions.

Secondly, Ellaria didn't have time to plot a coup, so if both died, Jaime would have immediately turned back to warn Doran, and then warning KL about all Dorne ships thus making it impossible for SS to get near Kings Landing easily. But killing just Myrcella would have Jaime mistrusting Doran and Dorne in general and continuing onward to Kings Landing and giving Ellaria days if not weeks to plot and convince the guards of her cause (or replace them).

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So now you're assuming that the SS only went to KL after receiving the note? That means that Trystane stayed on the anchored boat while the message went from KL to Dorne and the SS traveled from Dorne to KL. Seems logic.

Not assuming that at all but I will make it simple for you....

1) 4 SS wave bye bye from dock

2) 2 SS board another ship with orders "go to KL, if for some reason the Lannisters don't kill Tristane then you do it....there is no turning back for the SS now

3) 2 SS notice that Jamie goes to shore alone and takes no action is taken against Tristane, they step in and kill him

4) Doran gets a note from Jamie, the 2 SS in Dorne then forced to step in and take over rule of Dorne...there is no turning back for the SS now

Am I right? probably not but to say the plot is flawed is not right either. Maybe it's not your plot but it is A plot.

2) 2 SS board another ship with orders "go to KL, if for some reason the Lannisters don't kill Tristane then you do it....there is no turning back for the SS now

3) 2 SS notice that Jamie goes to shore alone and takes no action is taken against Tristane, they step in and kill him

4) Doran gets a note from Jamie, the 2 SS in Dorne then forced to step in and take over rule of Dorne...there is no turning back for the SS now

Am I right? probably not but to say the plot is flawed is not right either. Maybe it's not your plot but it is A plot.

So 2 SS that were so untrusted by Doran in 5.10 that their hands were bound in his presence are allowed to leave Dorne on a boat following Myrcella, who they just tried to kidnap/kill?

And the 1 SS and Ellaria in Dorne react to the note, but have already talked with all the guards to know that they despise Doran enough to allow the rightful ruler of Dorne to be killed for being weak, and there isn't so much as a flinch from the guards (and Tyene kills Hotah without possibly being able to read the note from her position before Ellaria stabs Doran, so it can't be in reaction to the note either.)

So it is inherently flawed. And even if there is some possible explanation that we can sit here and come up with over days, it is still flawed because they didn't show it to explain these massive events.

We don't need to see the characters taking a shit in their day to day lives. But if plot actions depend on that character taking a shit, we need to at least see them head to the bathroom.

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My take away was "the lack of Lannister action forced their hand"...I don't think they planned to Kill Tristane and Doran initially. The Lannisters and more specifically Jamie of old would have not hesitated to take revenge forcing Dorne into war. The SS plot was war not killing Martells. I do agree the dialog could have been much better but I have always thought that of the SS.

I just can't believe their goal was killing Martells....as many have suggested were simplier ways to do it. A perfect outcome would be for the Lannisters to have taken Tristane captive and to threaten his life forcing a response from Dorne. If the Lannisters kill him then Dorne has a martyr.

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So 2 SS that were so untrusted by Doran in 5.10 that their hands were bound in his presence are allowed to leave Dorne on a boat following Myrcella, who they just tried to kidnap/kill?

And the 1 SS and Ellaria in Dorne react to the note, but have already talked with all the guards to know that they despise Doran enough to allow the rightful ruler of Dorne to be killed for being weak, and there isn't so much as a flinch from the guards (and Tyene kills Hotah without possibly being able to read the note from her position before Ellaria stabs Doran, so it can't be in reaction to the note either.)

So it is inherently flawed. And even if there is some possible explanation that we can sit here and come up with over days, it is still flawed because they didn't show it to explain these massive events.

We don't need to see the characters taking a shit in their day to day lives. But if plot actions depend on that character taking a shit, we need to at least see them head to the bathroom.

Didn't Doran forced Ellaria and rest to take a binding oath, and then could be assumed that he relaxed his guard around them. And thats why they couldn't kill them all at same time because till then Doran was on guard around them.

Also, perhaps Ellaria and SS decided on coup precisely because Doran forced them to swear to obey him and not seek vengeance on Lannisters?

Also, an urgent message to Doran - Ellaria would assume instantly it was news about Myrcella's death and act before Doran could

35 minutes ago, Rhollo said:

Well, we couldn't hear any hounds after they disappeared fled when the fight between Brienne and the Search party broke out (because they are tracking hounds, not fighting hounds :lol:).

So they are obviously super sneaky silent hounds that can't even be heard from a few yards away, let alone miles.

Whenever you close one plothole in this show, another one opens up

But when we first see Theon and Sansa running through the woods, we hear braying hounds and people on the hunt far behind them. Assume that Brianne heard THAT!

Disappearing hounds is a plothole, but I am assuming they just didn't want to bother with an expensive woman/man against dogs fight scene which is far more difficult to stage.

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My take away was "the lack of Lannister action forced their hand"...I don't think they planned to Kill Tristane and Doran initially. The Lannisters and more specifically Jamie of old would have not hesitated to take revenge forcing Dorne into war. The SS plot was war not killing Martells. I do agree the dialog could have been much better but I have always thought that of the SS.

I just can't believe their goal was killing Martells....as many have suggested were simplier ways to do it. A perfect outcome would be for the Lannisters to have taken Tristane captive and to threaten his life forcing a response from Dorne. If the Lannisters kill him then Dorne has a martyr.

Actually, now SS/Ellaria can still claim that Lannisters killed Trystane since nobody in Dorne will believe that Cersei/Jaime let Trystane live

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Before Doran forced Ellaria and SS to swear obedience to him and promise not kill Myrcella, their plan was just killing Myrcella and revenge on Lannisters. When Doran forced them to swear oaths, he pretty much told them there is no plan for revenge, just keeping Dorne in peace. Furthermore, its obvious that Doran was on guard against Ellaria before that, so they couldn't plan a coup. After that Ellaria and SS decided to off both Doran and Trystane, at the same time as Doran relaxed his suspicions of Ellaria since she swore an oath, which I would assume is usually pretty binding.

Also, they wanted Myrcella to be just a start of revenge on Lannisters, so they need to get access to Kings Landing. Where they are now.

If they kissed both Myrcella and Trystane, Doran would have gotten suspicious since only reason Ellaria kissed Myrcella was in-course of apology/forgiveness moment while Trystane wasn't that close to Ellaria for her to kiss him randomly goodbye without raising suspicions.

Secondly, Ellaria didn't have time to plot a coup, so if both died, Jaime would have immediately turned back to warn Doran, and then warning KL about all Dorne ships thus making it impossible for SS to get near Kings Landing easily. But killing just Myrcella would have Jaime mistrusting Doran and Dorne in general and continuing onward to Kings Landing and giving Ellaria days if not weeks to plot and convince the guards of her cause (or replace them).

So Ellaria kissing goodbye Myrcella,a total stranger, was not suspicious but her kissing goodbye Trystane, her actual nephew, would have been.

So Jaime would have immediately turned back if both were killed, because he would totally trust Doran if Trystane was also murdered. What would assure him that whoever killed Trystane didn't also kill Doran?

11 minutes ago, ssls6 said:

Not assuming that at all but I will make it simple for you....

1) 4 SS wave bye bye from dock

2) 2 SS board another ship with orders "go to KL, if for some reason the Lannisters don't kill Tristane then you do it....there is no turning back for the SS now

3) 2 SS notice that Jamie goes to shore alone and takes no action is taken against Tristane, they step in and kill him

4) Doran gets a note from Jamie, the 2 SS in Dorne then forced to step in and take over rule of Dorne...there is no turning back for the SS now

Am I right? probably not but to say the plot is flawed is not right either. Maybe it's not your plot but it is A plot.

2 and 3) So the SS took a boat and followed the other one. OK. But how can they know what Jaime did to Trystane. Are they so close that they can see/hear what's happening in the other boat? That would have been suspicious.

Jaime going alone ashore is not a proof that Trystane is OK, Jaime could have killed him and sent him to the ocean, or simply let his body inside the ship.

And that still doesn't explain us how they were able to infiltrate a boat that was anchored next to the Red Keep without nobody noticing them.

3 minutes ago, ssls6 said:

My take away was "the lack of Lannister action forced their hand"...I don't think they planned to Kill Tristane and Doran initially. The Lannisters and more specifically Jamie of old would have not hesitated to take revenge forcing Dorne into war. The SS plot was war not killing Martells. I do agree the dialog could have been much better but I have always thought that of the SS.

I just can't believe their goal was killing Martells....as many have suggested were simplier ways to do it. A perfect outcome would be for the Lannisters to have taken Tristane captive and to threaten his life forcing a response from Dorne. If the Lannisters kill him then Dorne has a martyr.

Because Ellia and Oberyn weren't enough as Dornish martyrs?

And Dorne killing Myrcella wasn't enough for the Lannisters to declare war to Dorne?

38 minutes ago, Masha said:

I would say its not a plot-hole but pretty simple plan and explanation for that. Killing Trystane at same time as Myrcella (and attacking Doran too) is actually creating complicated scenarios instead of simple and effective ones.

You're the one creating complicated scenarios, saying that they first wanted to kill only Myrcella, but then wanted Jaime to kill Trystane, but then sent the SS to kill him in case Jaime didn't, and then decided to kill Doran when he received the scroll. All of this without any explanation.

All that when a simple "kill them all before they embark" scenario would have had the same results and would have been a lot clearer to the audience.

10 minutes ago, Masha said:

Actually, now SS/Ellaria can still claim that Lannisters killed Trystane since nobody in Dorne will believe that Cersei/Jaime let Trystane live

And what would they gain with that? They just killed Doran because he was a weak ruler who didn't try to avenge his brother and sister and we're supposed to believe that all the population of Dorne is OK with that. So if the population is OK with them killing Doran, they're also OK with them killing Trystane, since he was "weak like his father".

And again, it's not like Ellaria and the SS needed another reason to go to war against the Lannisters. They already had enough.

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But when we first see Theon and Sansa running through the woods, we hear braying hounds and people on the hunt far behind them. Assume that Brianne heard THAT!

It still doesn't make sense. Brienne had no reason to assume that Sansa was outside Winterfell. If she was actively looking for her in the woods, then yes, Brienne investigating dog noises would have been very reasonable. But with the information she hat, returning to WF asap would have been her upmost priority. I think assuming that her and Sansa just ran into each by chance in the exact right moment is the only explanation.

18 minutes ago, Masha said:

Disappearing hounds is a plothole, but I am assuming they just didn't want to bother with an expensive woman/man against dogs fight scene which is far more difficult to stage.

Well, if they don't want to bother with staging a fight that involves dogs, they shouldn't write a narrative that puts dogs at the scene of a fight. If that was the case, it's not just a plothole, but a deliberate one.

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It still doesn't make sense. Brienne had no reason to assume that Sansa was outside Winterfell. If she was actively looking for her in the woods, then yes, Brienne investigating dog noises would have been very reasonable. But with the information she hat, returning to WF asap would have been her upmost priority. I think assuming that her and Sansa just ran into each by chance in the exact right moment is the only explanation.

Well, if they don't want to bother with staging a fight that involves dogs, they shouldn't write a narrative that puts dogs at the scene of a fight. If that was the case, it's not just a plothole, but a deliberate one.

So, behind the screens handwaving (aka, what I would have filmed for 20 seconds to fix it) is Brienne returns to look for the candle, sees it lit (yes, I know this is ridiculous, but they established it's visible last season), and then sees a Bolton hunting party leaving with the hounds.

Instantly explains how she knows, and it's much less farfetched that she would simply follow them/their tracks.

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I don't understand how anyone would be confused by this. They just traveled to Kingslanding and it took roughly the same amount of time it took Trystane and Jamie.

Did you need a scene where Ser Barristan books a trip to Essos? Or could you figure out how that works?

I'm shocked that everyone would thinking wasting time showing sand snakes on a boat would make this episode better. The episode had so little time for everything else. You might as well be asking how all the characters, except Tywin, survive for 4 years without pooping.

I agree that there is pretty extreme nitpicking on these boards -- and there is waaay too much leeway given GRRM for the novels' problems.

But the time & spatial issues are an ongoing & special problem of the tv series, bothersome in their own right, but also because there are so many non-book viewers of the show. It adds needless confusion to an inherently confusing world with so many names, places, people, etc.

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I agree that there is pretty extreme nitpicking on these boards -- and there is waaay too much leeway given GRRM for the novels' problems.

But the time & spatial issues are an ongoing & special problem of the tv series because so many people watch the show but have not read the books. It adds needless confusion to an inherently confusing world with so many names, places, people, etc.

Umm, I would think most of nitpicking comes from book readers, most of unsullied, while having some issues regarding the plot itself, don't require to know why didn't Sand Snakes explain just how they appeared in his ship in excruciating detail before starting a fight with Trystane or have Brianne and Pod give a speech how they managed to find Sansa just in time.

The only issue they noticed is vanishing of hounds in the fight and realizing that Dorne plot was cut short due to bad reception of last season's Jaime's adventures.

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Umm, I would think most of nitpicking comes from book readers, most of unsullied, while having some issues regarding the plot itself, don't require to know why didn't Sand Snakes explain just how they appeared in his ship in excruciating detail before starting a fight with Trystane or have Brianne and Pod give a speech how they managed to find Sansa just in time.

The only issue they noticed is vanishing of hounds in the fight and realizing that Dorne plot was cut short due to bad reception of last season's Jaime's adventures.

How are these problems related to the books? Where did you see anyone in this thread talk about the books? So why are you talking about book readers?

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Can't believe people are trying to rationalize this shit. My first time watching, as an avid book reader and show watcher, the scene with Trystane and the SS i had NO idea where they were or how they got there. I cannot be the only one. It isn't even clear that its on a boat at first glance. A quick scene to set up this assassination would clear ALL that up. Why is that so hard to get ? We shouldn't have to come up with these complex situations. "Oh they got on a boat right after and followed to kings landing" or "Oh, Jamie sent Trystane back to Dorne so he wouldnt get killed". NONE of this was explained to viewers. If you cant see that as a problem then keep on obliviously loving this show.

Brienne being in the forest doesn't really make sense either. Lets just look past the fact that she somehow found Stannis alone during a battle in forest that was earlier shown as an open plain and somehow none of the Boltons men were there. She kills him, and then she just hangs out for a bit ? For the same amount of time that it takes Ramsay to go back to Winterfell take a nice shower and mourn his beloved Myranda and have a nice conversation with daddy. I would think that as soon as the Stannis kill is done shed be the fuck outta there because you know there's enemies EVERYWHERE. But okay, shes in the huge forest and she somehow is in the perfect spot to hear the hounds and the struggle. This would be maybe okay if this was the first moment of Brienne running into someone in unbelievable circumstances. But how many times has it happened before ??? How many times has things like this happened in the show in the last season ?!?! ITS JUST LAZY WRITING. You can enjoy lazy writing but lets call a horse a horse here okay. Thanks.