I have listened to ChNN's teachings in the past, but I don't practice his methods. I studied him for background. The methods of Ati I follow are very different based on my teachers from different Ati lineages.

On getting the fourth vision without rigpa it is probably possible. The last second of a malevolent entity being wrathfully liberated into the ground but then again technically that last moment is also rigpa.

Probably (again) the last moment of all unenlightened beings as the cosmos is dissolved too but then again that is enforced rigpa too. Both cases are conjectures and assumed to be full rigpa anyway.

I am not going to answer this question, not because I can't, but because the answer will involve discussing things not appropriate to discuss with strangers.

Many times I have heard teachers say one should not discuss things like togal in bars. That does not mean you cannot mention the name "togal" in a bar -- but to explain it, etc., is inappropriate. In this instance I will follow the instructions of my teachers and disengage from this line of discussion.

You can't force through these stages with force, impatience and mere techniques as is the habit of us westerners. Even more important if the desire is strong then it backfires. One should also look at how subtle levels of inner clinging and desire interact with the external world which is a whole different area. The ground in Dzogchen is different than in Yogachara too. Also there are different categories of rtsal manifestations. If none of these five separate areas convinces one, then it is good to keep in mind what we are told, namely that handling these things wrongly or too impatiently or wanting them too much or even liking them before or after initial basic arising can block them for the current lifetime. This page is all wrong.

Okay. I'm not communicating enough. I know from personal experience that the five wisdom lights arise by abiding in rigpa, mahamudra, use your favorite word. The five wisdom lights are the essence of the elements. So this is what we are talking about on this thread. The avidya released in vidya causes these lights to appear. This is how I got into learning more about them, and then learned of Togal and got into the whole Atiyoga practice. It's consistent every time I enter samadhi. So the question is, are these lights arising because of past life karma? Or is it the practice of abiding that does it? I'm interested in Loppon's answer. My teacher's and I have talked about this extensively. The answer I get is that the three kayas are complete with the direct perception of dharmakaya. That these lights will arise for people, but then won't know what to do next. What to do next is Togal, which we are not going to talk about. But it seems that Namdrol thinks the lights are contingent upon Togal. I'm interested to know if he thinks that's the case. That would be informative for me. If we can just get to this juncture of lights without reference to the method of Togal I would appreciate it.

Teachers will talk openly about the appearances of Togal and what they mean. Teachers will not talk about specifics of method, like postures and gazes. That's the part that's off-limits. ChNN will talk about appearances of tigle and what they mean. Tigle comes even after five lights. So this mum about my question is bullshit.