God has proven Himself to me like the sun and moon. So it would certainly be a challenge like no other to get me to disbelieve.

I don't think anyone here doubts that you are positive that that is the case.

What you have NOT done is given any kind of evidence that holds up when examined that would cause anyone else to change their minds, who have not benefitted from the direct proof that your god has seen fit to grant to you.

Case in point: how would you disabuse a devout Hindu who had direct experience of her gods, that all her experiences were false?

Interesting you post that picture. I see you believe that things get more complex over time instead of progressing toward disorder. This is an interesting belief because it contradicts what we know about entropy.

It seems Skeptic links the universes closed nature to earths, then thinks that earth must obviously also be a closed system...

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Interesting you post that picture. I see you believe that things get more complex over time instead of progressing toward disorder. This is an interesting belief because it contradicts what we know about entropy.

reproduction(and growth) of any kind would not work in skeptic's closed system that doesn't allow evolution

When God tells you to do something, you do it. Period. God is the Eternal King of everything. He has the right to do what He feels is best. Going against God is quite foolish and will get you absolutely nowhere. Just look at Satan and his demons.

Oh so in spite of your previous words YOU DO believe in might-makes-right morality then, right? So then for you, morality is nothing but a command which can be changed on a whim at any moment. As such then, there is no such thing as 'objective' morality (under that thinking) b/c it can change at any moment.

True. But the test is being able to explain it to someone who it doesn't make sense to.

Not really sure what you're saying to be honest. Christianity makes sense to many people who it didn't previously make sense to. It has to, or it would never have gained traction in the first place.

Christianity makes sense?

Is that why Islam is now the fastest growing religion in Europe, Africa and Asia? Is that why there are nearly a billion Hindus on the planet today? Is that why Buddhism is so predominant in Indochina? And in none of those areas is Christianity very popular--even though it clearly makes the most sense..... [1]

If you study the history of how religions come about and spread, you will find that "making sense" is not at all what it is about. For the millions of traditional polytheistic pagans in Europe, it took centuries of warfare, forced conformity, the destruction of all their religious sites, and lots of compromising on symbols and festivals to get early Christianity established.

That is why modern Christianity is so full of pagan stuff like (winter solstice) Christmas trees and (spring fertility festival) Easter eggs. None of that came from the desert cultures of the Middle East.

Likewise the spread of Christianity to the Americas, the Pacific and sub-Saharan Africa was not a process of just presenting some reasonable new ideas and letting people take it or leave it. Most of the people would have happily gone on with their lives and ignored the missionaries if they had been powerful enough to resist. That is what happened when missionaries tried to convert the Japanese in the 1500's. Same thing with the 300+ years of attempts to convert Hindus in India.

Colonial domination, warfare and slavery have accompanied most large-scale religious conversion-- and still many people died rather than give up the traditions of their families for Christianity. The rest only pretended to convert after they were "pacified", which is why we have so many distinctly different cultural forms of the Christian religion as a result: Santeria, Vodun, Rasta, Palo Monte and so on. These religions take some of the elements of Christianity and blend in the traditional African or native American practices. So, then, after all the cultural adaptations, the Christian religion makes sense to the people. But not the same way it makes sense to the white guys from England or Spain.

When people are organized and able to fight off foreign control, they do, and generally reject the foreign religions, too. Today, it is almost impossible to separate the missionary presence from economic influence. Countries and regions that are militarily powerful and/or economically viable don't usually have to admit missionaries. You don't find lots of Christian missionaries in Saudi Arabia or North Korea. China admits missionaries, but they have 5000 years of culture that says, "good luck with that".

Poor places that are in disarray have little choice. I have tripped over lots of missionaries in poor places that needed development but already had plenty of religion, thanks very much. Missionaries bring clothes, medicines, books, toys, money and food. They also provide entertainment and diversion with tent revivals and speeches and bonfires and sing-a-longs. They always employ some local folks as drivers and interpreters. Sometimes they even stay long enough and understand the local cultures well enough to actually do some real development.

And out of all this, some of the local people convert--often the most desperate people who are grateful for help from any quarter. Plus some disaffected youth trying to grab onto something new and maybe shock their families. Yay. Clearly, because the new religion makes more sense.

Perhaps it does make sense to some who were raised with it. But can you explain Christianity in such a way as to have it make sense to others? Fully mature and educated others at that. Where are the legions of converted Muslims and Ph. D holding scientists? You get a few of them, but it's so few as to be statistically insignificant.

Christianity traditionally doesn't spread by talking to adults and reasoning with them. It spreads by targeting the weak and vulnerable.

Often it spreads through child hood indoctrination Children clearly aren't capable of fully realizing the difference between reality and fantasy, so convincing them that it makes sense is easy. In western society, (well america at least,i cant speak for other countries) it's impossible to grow up without being immersed in it, so the sudden conversion of adults during emotional trauma can be explained by said trauma and childhood immersion.

Historically, Christianity has often spread by the sword, which is emphatically not a reasonable method of discourse.

Missionary's specifically target uneducated and poor peoples. Folks who are starving are often more than happy to mouth allegiance to a foreign god if it means they have food. The same goes for medical attention. What is the next building the missionary's build after the food distribution station and the clinic? Generally a school, all the better to get at the vulnerable minds of the children.

Can you show me a place where Christianity gets a large number of converts without targeting the weak? You can argue that Christianity makes "sense" but you cant claim that it's spread has been in any way due to it's "sensibility".

And it seems that each individual christian has their own version of christianity.

I can certainly see the appeal in a religion you get to make up as you go along, but am unconvinced that your statement holds true. More than 30,000 sects and still counting certainly doesn't sound like many people understand christianity. Same bible, thousands of active denominations based on specific differing interpretations - and that's even before you get into the really fringe stuff like home-churching.

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"Tell people that there's an invisible man in the sky that created the entire universe and the majority believe you. Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure." ~George Carlin

Perhaps it does make sense to some who were raised with it. But can you explain Christianity in such a way as to have it make sense to others? Fully mature and educated others at that. Where are the legions of converted Muslims and Ph. D holding scientists? You get a few of them, but it's so few as to be statistically insignificant.

I personally know many fully mature and well educated people who have become convinced that Christianity is real and makes sense. I don't really care if it is statistically signifiicant.

Not really sure what you're saying to be honest. Christianity makes sense to many people who it didn't previously make sense to. It has to, or it would never have gained traction in the first place.

Compare the number of people who have converted to Christianity due to evidence, logic, and rational arguments, versus the number of people who have been converted to Christianity through their emotions and subjective experiences, and what I'm saying should become much clearer.

Honestly, magicmiles, and this isn't intended as a slight, Christianity doesn't strike me as being particularly sensible to begin with. It's a system designed to make people feel special - that there's a Heavenly Father out there making sure that everything is under control, so even if bad things happen, they're ultimately for a good reason. So Christianity makes people feel that they don't have to try to make sense of things - they have God on their side.

So those friends of yours, I don't think they really understand Christianity any better now than they did before, they just feel better now. Christianity isn't about understanding things at all. It's about feeling good about things. Indeed, I think it is for that reason that many of the atheists here stopped being Christians - because they stopped feeling good about things, and when they prayed to the god they worshiped then, there was no answer. As a result, they had to try to make sense of things, instead of just being able to feel good about them.

And it seems that each individual christian has their own version of christianity.

It might seem that way, but it really isn't. Thousands of different denominations really doesn't mean a lot. Generally speaking denominational differences are so minute they are hard to distinguish.

To their followers they're hardly minute. If they were so insignificant we wouldn't see so many break away religions, starting with protestanism, would we?

Go ahead and tell a Southern Baptist that his religion is only minutely different from the ORIGINAL christianty - you know, the one practiced by Catholics. Try find telling a Mormon that he follows the same religion as a Lutheran. Tell a 7th Day Adventist that their religion is just like going to a Methodist church.

Perhaps it does make sense to some who were raised with it. But can you explain Christianity in such a way as to have it make sense to others? Fully mature and educated others at that. Where are the legions of converted Muslims and Ph. D holding scientists? You get a few of them, but it's so few as to be statistically insignificant.

I personally know many fully mature and well educated people who have become convinced that Christianity is real and makes sense. I don't really care if it is statistically signifiicant.

You see, this is where I just don't get it. Even the way it's phrased "have become convinced" brings to mind coercion of some kind. I know that's not what you meant, but I just don't see people comparing Islam, Hinduism, Christianity and going "oh, bloody hell, those other two are just so dumb. But, Christianity, that just makes sense".

We don't see the current geographic distribution of religion suddenly shift to all Christian, because it makes sense. We see people generally adopting the religion that is culturally prevalent or passed on from family. Why does it not make sense to people living in areas that are not Christian? Why does it need missionaries to provide anchoring from their work to their god?

Let's look at the holy books for a moment. I don't think the Old Testament makes sense, and certainly not if I take it as a whole. It makes sense that it is simply a collection or writings from the area and of that time, but as the delivery vehicle from the almighty? No that doesn't make sense.

Moving on, no matter if I look at it as stand-alone or a sequel, The New Testament doesn't make sense to me either. In fact, if I look at it compared to other religion's holy books, it makes no more sense then they do, and none of those make sense to me as some kind of supernaturally inspired work.

What I do see, however, are people who attempt to make sense out of what they read in those books. I see people who attempt to make sense out of this world by adjusting their version of their sect's version of Christianity, so that they can believe it. Specifically, I see people who retreat to the argument from faith as a way to make sense of the contradictions between what their religion says vs what reality delivers.

I don't think that any of us are trying to argue over semantics, but when you say it makes sense, a more accurate description to me is that when believers have twisted, turned, interpreted, clarified, added to, subtracted from, correctly understood, studied, and put into context their version of Christianity, that they can convince themselves that it makes sense to believe what they already wanted to believe?

I guess you missed the rest of the post. Do you only read stuff in bold these days, MM? Cargo cults and Scientology also make sense to some people.

I don't claim otherwise. Guess we can agree that all sorts of things make sense to different people.

Then it goes back to my basic question: How do we determine the true from the false?

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

I agree with this, almost anything can make "sense", but do you understand that "making sense" does not equate to "truth".

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Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

MM, you mentioned, if I recall, that you have two siblings, neither of whom are Christian. I just wonder whether these conversations ever come up in your own family? Maybe you just agree to disagree for the sake of family harmony. No motive behind this question, just curious.

I'm an only child, and my parents are aware that I am not a believer, and not too happy about it, but it's something that very rarely comes up. Maybe that's one reason I like forums like this where it can be discussed. Maybe that's true of you as well.

I just mention this to partially argue the statement 12 monkeys made about you only socializing with like-minded people, because obviously, assuming that you have not cut off ties with your family that is not true. But do you, in fact, have a lot more like-minded friends and acquaintances than otherwise? Australia not being quite as populated with Fundies, at least, as the USA, I would imagine it would be easier to throw a metaphorical rock without hitting one out there than here.

So, assuming that you are not surrounded by Christians to the point that it becomes easy never to hear opposing viewpoints, how difficult is it to never come up against an argument which stops you, at least for a moment, to wonder? Again, just curiosity.

And it seems that each individual christian has their own version of christianity.

It might seem that way, but it really isn't. Thousands of different denominations really doesn't mean a lot. Generally speaking denominational differences are so minute they are hard to distinguish.

Do you consider Santeria and Vodun to be minute denominational differences? Many of the people who practice those types of religions consider themselves to be good Christians. The certainly don't think of themselves as pagans or demon worshippers.

I would argue that the stuff they do, like sheep and goat sacrifices, and interacting directly with god as a real person, to be far more like what the people in the bible were up to than anything in a modern Protestant church.

Or would you say that people today should not do what people in the bible did?

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When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

I agree with this, almost anything can make "sense", but do you understand that "making sense" does not equate to "truth".

Exactly.

I have been teaching about Islam for over ten years and, after all that exposure and study, the Muslim cultural practices make sense to me. I kind of understand them and can even respect them to some extent. But I don't believe Islam is true anymore than any other geographically-confined, culturally-specific, obviously made-up-by-humans religion.[1]

Everyone's family and cultural practices make sense to the people who grew up with those practices, but seem strange to outsiders. Christianity, Hinduism and Islam all make sense to the people involved, but clearly all three cannot be true reflections of reality. If Brahma created the world and is in charge, then we should be doing what he wants. There is no room for Shango, Ra, Jehovah or Allah.

I was raised a JW, and that still makes sense to me, because I understand it. However, I don't believe any of it is true. So, we certainly can't rely on what religion makes sense to us personally--because that is what we have been taught since childhood, or because that is the prevailing culture, or because some powerful person said we have to do it.

How do we determine which religions make sense because they are true, as opposed to which make sense because we are used to them?

And it seems that each individual christian has their own version of christianity.

It might seem that way, but it really isn't. Thousands of different denominations really doesn't mean a lot. Generally speaking denominational differences are so minute they are hard to distinguish.

Thousands of Christian bookstore chains (and their corresponding sects) around the globe show you are completely wrong here, sorry. This is why they have denominational 'beware' books about who is a 'cult' (according to them) and who to stay away from. There are at least 10 different sects of your religion in my small town alone and nearly all of them point to at least 6 of the others and claim that they are not "true" Christians and that they are leading people in the opposite direction they should be going. Mormons and JWs think everyone else is in apostasy. Catholics think their organization is the only one that has "the pedigree of authority" and that all others are not in the 'body of Christ'. Lutherans think Mormons, JWs, Methodists, Unitarians, and Christian Science are false religions b/c they don't have "the real Jesus" - and on and one it goes. You simply don't know what you're talking about.

It might seem that way, but it really isn't. Thousands of different denominations really doesn't mean a lot. Generally speaking denominational differences are so minute they are hard to distinguish.

I think the 3 to 11 million people who died in the Thirty years war might be evidence to the contrary.

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.