12
comments
:

Frank Farance
said...

David: So when you say "Frank, you need help, you are crazy", you don't believe that's a "personal attack", but when I complain that your art/arch comments sound like cliches (watch many Woody Allen films to see art/arch criticism lampooned), the kinds of discussions among so-called "intellectuals" on art/arch, now that's a personal attack according to you, right? It sounds like you're the one with the personal attacks, right?

FYI, here's a sample of Woody Allen on art criticism in Play It Again Sam:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o

Allan: That's quite a lovely Jackson Pollock, isn't it?

Museum Girl: Yes, it is.

Allan: What does it say to you?

Museum Girl: It restates the negativeness of the universe. The hideous lonely emptiness of existence. Nothingness. The predicament of Man forced to live in a barren, Godless eternity like a tiny flame flickering in an immense void with nothing but waste, horror and degradation, forming a useless bleak straitjacket in a black absurd cosmos.

Frank, Correct—"Frank, you need help, you are crazy" was a personal attack. So, if you can recognize incoming why can't you recognize outgoing. You may think they are funny but they are not. Resist the impulse to launch them and we will all be better for it.

Mr. Enock, when you say "Frank is a dick" side-by-side with your clients (Nasdaq, Freshdirect, BMW, etc.) and faulty reasoning based upon Argument by Authority, you're not seeing how you're doing what you say you don't like, right?

In fact, it's sorta funny to read your authoritative chest pounding with brands Museum of Modern Art and Pepsi-Cola juxtaposed with "Frank is a dick" ... sorta detracts from your whole point because (1) you haven't rebutted the criticism (you've just presented an Argument By Authority), (2) you sound crass, which you yourself don't seem to like.

I would have guessed you would claim "So-And-So is a dick" is a personal attack, right?

As for your decades of art director experience, how does that preclude your speaking in cliches? Myself having worked with art directors for over two decades, wouldn't you say that because you have numerous clients (in contrast to an art critic whose words need to be fresh to the readers across the history of his/her articles), that art directors might be prone to the using the same words (daring! inspired! creative! etc.) across their clients because a client doesn't hear what art directors to other clients, right?

In other words, art directors (more so than, say, art critics writing for a magazine) are prone to language reuse, which is why it can sound like cliches, right?

Maybe because advertising uses the flawed reasoning of Argument by Authority as a basis for the art directors' pitch it is that you feel comfortable using it here, but your reasoning is flawed. Here's an excerpt and a link to Argument By Authority, how it is flawed, and how it is used by advertising: "Much advertising relies on this logical fallacy [Argument By Authority] in the form of endorsements and sponsorships." "https://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Appeal_to_authority.html"

Anyway, I am truly enjoying the idea that with your five decades of experience: when someone raises a complaint about your intellectual work product, the best you can come up with is "Frank is a dick". I doubt that would win you an A+ from the professors.

Mr. Enock, you do like many: when you're out of arguments, you cry Personal Attack. With your background, you had plenty opportunities to have an intelligent response, but you chose not to. The artists I know would have enjoyed the Woody Allen reference because the lines are written over-the-top to hype all the art-crit b*llsh*t language, as said by the woman. We're all supposed to laugh at the moment in the movie because we've heard that kind of puffery (just like the puffery you write about the plaza).

However, your comeback is "you're no Woody Allen", which is incredibly lame and empty -- I feel soooooo chopped off at the knees. (not!)

I am not a public person involved in island politics on a daily basis as you are. This is just about your attempts to do something good for our neighborhood but many times failing because of your communication "problems." No double standards here.

Frank, I like to think the personal attacks I made were out of character for me. They were made in the heat of the discussion, which in no way excuses them. They were inappropriate and uncalled for at best and will not happen again. Please accept my apologies. Best, David

David, I've known you for 34 years, so I know you didn't mean them, apology accepted, all is forgiven, no problem. :-)

I was trying to nudge this thread into some actual discussion of art, architecture, and urban design ... a discussion that would serve this community well. Even though we might disagree on one point (and agree on others), it would be helpful to hear some vigorous debate. Like many discussions about art, it comes down to taste and aesthetics.

However (and this is the important part), even if one doesn't have a strong background in a particular kind of art, hearing some discussion can serve as a rationale, design, story, or whatever. For many people, they benefit from hearing some discussion of art. Yeah, true artists don't think so because art is to be experienced unfiltered and not interpreted by a third party telling them what it means.

So to put the best light on your words that I disagree with and have labeled "puffery" (well, puffery in the FTC enforcement sense, as you're aware in advertising), if you believe the plaza is "daring", then why so? The use of minor sevenths (in the way jazz/blues notes are used) in the late 1700's music could have been "daring", would have likely sounded "dissonant", and still most likely today would not have been "rehabilitated" as jazz/blues in the 1700's.

And "daring" still doesn't imply good, "daring" can be really bad, too.

So if you think the church design is good, then explain further about the plaza committee's discussions, frameworks, and decisions, e.g., explain (say) a visual vocabulary or aesthetic in use. We and others might agree or disagree, but having a discussion among several viewpoints is helpful for everyone.

Hi Frank, Yes, I understand that you were "trying to nudge this thread" in a direction that you believe might serve the community well. It is just that when it comes to design, my reactions are first visceral, then intellectual. The plaza is a physical environment and as such most people will respond to it with their feelings. Surely, there will be some, who will experience the design intellectually and seek to understand the forces that drove the process behind their feelings. I leave that discussion to you. (:--)

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