Giants answer A’s on territorial rights

Earlier today the A’s put out a statement about territorial rights. The Giants just sent out a rebuttal, with some interesting wording. (Note the “just” when talking about the A’s purchase price.) Here it is in its entirety:

“The Commissioner has asked us to refrain from discussing the territorial rights issue publicly. Out of respect for his request, we will limit our response to setting the record straight on the history of territorial rights.

The Giants territorial rights were not granted “subject to” moving to Santa Clara County. Indeed, the A’s fail to mention that MLB’s 1990 territorial rights designation has been explicitly re-affirmed by Major League Baseball on four separate occasions. Most significantly in 1994, Major League Baseball conducted a comprehensive review and re-definition of each club’s territories. These designations explicitly provide that the Giants territory include Santa Clara, San Francisco, San Mateo, Monterey, Santa Cruz and Marin Counties and the A’s territory included Alameda and Contra Costa Counties.
The MLB owners unanimously approved those designated territories and memorialized them in the MLB Constitution. Since then, the MLB Constitution has been re-affirmed by the MLB owners – including by the A’s – on three different occasions (2000, 2005 and 2008), long after the Giants won approval to build AT&T Park. Mr. Wolff and Mr. Fisher agreed to these territorial designations and were fully aware of our territorial rights when they purchased the A’s for just $172 million in 2005.

The population of Santa Clara County alone represents 43% of our territory. Upon purchasing the team 20 years ago, our plan to revive the franchise relied heavily on targeting and solidifying our fan base in the largest and fastest growing county within our territory. Based on these Constitutionally-recognized territorial rights, the Giants invested hundreds of millions of dollars to save and stabilize the team for the Bay Area, built AT&T Park privately and has operated the franchise so that it can compete at the highest levels.”

I am a huge Giants fan, but why did the Giants get 6 counties (including Santa Clara county which is huge!) and the A’s have 2?

AT&T park is 47 miles from San Jose city center. The O.co is only 42 miles away from the center of San Jose! I love the Giants but I think it is bad Karma to Stadium block the A’s. That is 5 miles fewer and the Gmen get the rights.

San Jose and the A’s need to sue MLB and the Giants. This is simple to me, territorial rights are more for teams coming from other markets. The A’s are already here! I think the Giants have a case if the Detroit Tigers or the Arizona Diamondbacks wanted San Jose…but not the CLOSER Oakland Athletics.

Danny

Anti-Lasorda, economy crapped out and a big deveopment backed out in Freemont so they went all in for San Jose.

They have reasonable cause for dispute, but Wolfe/Fisher are getting ready for a pump and dump. It might take 3-4 years of collecting the dole, but the two of them stand to quadruple the money they paid for the team. In the end, who will buy a poor club, in a new stadium, that may not attract enough fans to attract vendors, a McCourt clone.

I wish, if they insist on moving, that they’d journey up the road to Sac, and give me some good MLB that was local. One can watch 2 teams in different Leagues, really. Besides my son swears he’s an A’s fan.

JohnB

Just build the stadium and watch the Giants try to uphold the facist “territorial rights” argument in Court. I doubt the MLB will want that because the Giants (and MLB) will lose and the “anti-trust” exemption that has allowed Herr Selig to operate in his unabashed manner will be brought into serious question. Wolff: grow and pair and just build the damn thing.

Dan

Time to take this to court San Jose. See how fast MLB overturns the rights if their precious Anti Trust exemption is threatened.

Jstreet

Bravo. A very good non-discussion of territorial rights. Go Giants.

Anti-Lasorda

Danny,

The real reason they bailed on Fremont wasn’t the economy, it was because Uncle Bud told Wolff he could move to San Jose in 2009. Why not get close to the oney, when Uncle Bud will let you live in the tree?

All this other crap is just posturing and Seling trying to cover his hind quarters after the fact so the Giants don’t sue the bejesus out of MLB.

I am sure when the nations top corporate attorney, one William Neukom, was no longer the managing general partner, that Wolff and Bud did the dance of joy. The San Jose A’s is going to happen, and the only thing to negotiate is the compensation.

I am going to guess the MLB consitution gives to Oakland Santa Clara and Monterey Counties and Alameda and Contra Costa Counties and a sum of money equal to the Giants oustanding stadium debt get exchanged to make it happen.

As a Giants fan I don’t like it, but it would be better for MLB.

Tony D

Love the revisionist history of giants ownership (sarcasm). You only have territorial rights to San Jose because you were supposed to relocate and build a ballpark here…that’s it! No amount of reaffirming will change that. AT&T Park isn’t located on the San Jose “lawn” so no reason whatsoever why the A’s should get off! Go A’s and Go San Jose!

From a purely outside standpoint:
The Elephant in the room is that Santa Clara holds 1.8M people. If you want to go the route that the “Oakland” Athletics wants to take Santa Clara, then you should look at it from this perspective … are the new San Jose Athletics willing to give up Contra Costa County and possibly some reimbursement for the rights to Santa Clara County.

lamekuma

Oh, and that’s not even considering corporate sponsorships, revenue per capita based on population by region (which I”m sure they all have analytics for). It’s not simply cut and dried …

Actual Uses Logic

Why is it that the Bay Area has territorial rights dividing up the area but LA, New York, and Chicago don’t?

Nameless Bob

I really don’t think they needed to capitalize “Constitutionally” when they were referring to the MLB constitution. Unless they think there is a US constitutional right that grants them Santa Clara County. I think Jefferson and others were remarkably silent on that subject.

Lefty

But if what the Giants say is true, their position seems reasonable, doesn’t it? Did MLB codify the specific territorial rights of all the teams in its Constitution, and did the owners, including the A’s, repeatedly ratify those rights even long after it was clear that the Giants weren’t going to move to Santa Clara? If so, how is it relevant what the late Mr. Haas may have intended back in the 80s? Don’t subsequent actions by the owners, including the current A’s owners, make that a now-moot point?

I don’t hate the A’s, and I understand their desire to move. But the Giants have become a successful model franchise; how is it right for the A’s to move into the middle of an affluent and substantial part of the Giants’ fan base? It just doesn’t seem fair.

I’m with Channel; c’mon up to Sac, A’s. Raley Field was designed so that it could be expanded to major league size. Of course, now that we’re pulling out all the stops to keep the %#% Kings, it’s not realistic. But, oh would I love to go watch the Giants, the Yankees, the Red Sox, the Angels, the Rangers, and the Tigers 25 min. away from my house in Davis!

Foothills Ryan

Actual Uses Logic doesn’t actually use grammar.

I doubt the Mets would try or be able to build in the Bronx.

——————–

I have had a habit of saying stupid things like the Giants should extract a couple top prospects on top of cash for the rights to San Jose. No more will I say that. After reading the Giants rebuttal I can’t imagine them giving an inch at any price. I am also siding with the notion that the owners will side with the Giants for fear of precedent.

The NY Yankees are currently in a dispute grounded in a similar way to prevent the Rays from moving North, into Yankee’s territory. After what was done with the Expos, nobody trusts Selig anymore, and the 3/4 owner support to allow the move is going to be very difficult to obtain.

Foothills Ryan

The A’s need to sack up and become a good team worth watching. Have you heard of the Tamba Bay Rays? Put a good team on the field and reach out to the fans in the Bay Area and the Valley. A die-hard A’s fan just had a budget-cut retirement today at work. She received an orange Giants shirt as a gag and a really nice A’s sweatshirt for real. She is great. For her sake, I hope the A’s can put a good team together and sell it to someone who can make it work without the whining. They have a great farm system. They have Sacramento. They’ve got the 11th overall pick in the draft. They just bought an exciting Cuban prospect. They will have Brett Anderson back from TJ. With the pitching and position prospects they hauled in this year, they could be a contender in the AL West in 2 years. It’s doable. Make it work.

Foothills Ryan

Sorry if you haven’t heard of the Tamba Bay Rays.

Lefty

Foothills,

Yeah, it’s funny how the Rays seem to be the real “Moneyball” story. The A’s were pretty good there for a number of the early Beane years, but it’s been a long time now. Why is that?

Dan

Anti-Lasorda,

Bud Selig had nothing to do with it! Neither did the economy. Fremont didn’t want the A’s. The people voted against it complaining of noise and traffic! Bud was all for it when the idea came up and the City shot it down. Had nothing to do with anything but Fremont not wanting a team!

Foothills Ryan

Isn’t it ironic that we are discussing this on the “hit” blog from the San Jose Mercury?

E-B

thx all, for u/d.

i still don’t understand why A’s want to even infringe on another team’s T-rights.

they should try another city, outside of another team’s T.

it’s too simple, so they won’t do it?

MissouriBoy

Danny says Giants have 7 counties, A’s just 2. First, you would need to add up population of those counties. Some counties are big, some small. Need to add up population, not number of counties. Oakland needs to look East! There are no other MLB teams for 500 miles east of Oakland. The Oakland A’s need to draw fans from Napa county, Yolo county, Sacramento county, San Joaquin county, Placer county, etc.

The Giants cannot go East (the A’s are already there). The Giants can’t go West (the ocean is there). The Giants can only go North and South to get fans. Oakland can go East, NorthEast, and SouthEast.

san jose A’s

F*** the Giants. What a bunch of f***. From the owners, to the manager, the players, and the fans.

ClutchUp

san jose A’s says: March 7th, 2012 at 8:48 pm 24..F*** the Giants. What a bunch of f***. From the owners, to the manager, the players, and the fans.

Classy Post – Not!
Thats why you’re a bunch of losers. Games are on an FM radio station.

Figure it out clown. Put a tent over the Circus known as Mount Davis.

Paul Heally

All you have to say is Washington Nationals/Baltimore Orioles

Game/Set/Match–OAKLAND

I am sure there will be more mud slinging (and “Anti-Trust” threats) and legal jostling, but gotta think cooler heads will prevail and MASSIVE legal fees avoided with some kinda compensation plan for the Giants. I am one of those weird Old Skool animals that Loves the Giants (First) and the A’s (Second) (I always leave a Giants/A’s contest reasably happy 🙂 ) As a Giants fan, I really don’t care if the A’s move to San Jose; as an A’s fan, I want to see the A’s in San Jose (my hometown) and as a baseball fan I truly belive it is the cosmically RIGHT thing to do! btw, I DON’T own one of those SILLY Giants/A’s Hats–they were STOOPID!!!! 🙂

Rob Rico

I’ll trade the rights to San Jose for the rights to Oakland. We take the East Bay, give them the South Bay. But there should at least be some sort of public ceremony where the “Oakland” gets ripped off their jerseys.

san jose A’s

Classy response from a Gnats fan.You guys think your so special don’t you?The Gnats ain’t gonna win a championship ever again so enjoy the lucky fluke win you got cuz that’s all you pathetic losers will ever get.

jpipk

The counties delineated in the agreement are the ones that might be contended for–the counties that both teams would likely have a territorial interest. The “line” of demarcation is, roughly, the extension of the San Francisco Bay to the southeast and San Pablo to the north.
Implied in the agreement is that the A’s had everthing to their north, east, and southeast. This includes the I-80 corridor to Sacramento (MSA the size of San Jose) and beyond to Nevada, the Sacramento Valley north to Redding and beyond to Oregon, and the I-5/99 routes south through Stockton, Modesto, Merced, and ending somewhere before Fresno which is a Giant “island” between northern California and Dodger country to the south.
The real problem is the Bay Area is marginal for two teams. It is overwhelmingly the smallest 2-team area in the major leagues. NY, LA, and Chicago are the only areas large enough for two teams.
LA and Chicago sort of have three teams if San Diego and Milwaukee are included. NY could easily support a third team better than SF Bay having two. Rarely have BOTH teams in northern California had good financial years at the same time.
A final thought, if Selig reneges on the agreement and the A’s move south cutting off the Giants primary revenue source, then Alameda and east to Sacramento would, eventually, become Giant country. As fans are lost in the south bay, the Giants can win fans from the east bay, and perhaps swapping Fresno for Sacramento for their AAA affiliates.

Samuel

Better idea: why not combine into one super-territory covering all of North CA and both teams have huge marketing rights?

The A’s have been getting screwed by these illegal monopolistic territorial rights for over 3 years now. Bud Selig had his chance to solve the issue out of court. Now it’s time to get out of the way and let the adults handle this.

Gabe

It’s not about “trading” counties. It’s about eliminating T-rights altogether. You take the entire population of the Bay area and cut it in half, and each of those halves is still bigger (population-wise) than many other markets. Make both teams just compete for casual fans; with both venues being newer, they’ll have to stretch their margins by being more competitive and entertaining. In this situation, MLB would make more money and the fans would get a better product.

jpipk

Stoneham should never have allowed the DegenerAtes to move with their clown owner Finley into California in the first place.
Go back to Philadelphia or Kansas City or wherever the he’ll you came from!
And change your name to the Jerkoffs.
Oakland Jerkoffs? San Jose Jerkoffs?
You’re going to be the only team ever to play in 4 FOUR backwater dumps of towns!

san jose A’s

Jpipk is obviously a gay Giants fan.

JD4SF

IMHO, the A’s would do better in the long term with their new stadium located where they don’t have existing MLB competition. The current shared population base has proven it isn’t adequate for strongly supporting 2 teams.

Thank you to posters expressing calm, rational opinions.

But this thread stopped being worth reading with the influx of folks who apparently don’t know how to express an opinion without expletives or personal attacks.

JD4SF says:March 7th, 2012 at 10:52 pm Thank you to posters expressing calm, rational opinions.
But this thread stopped being worth reading with the influx of folks who apparently don’t know how to express an opinion without expletives or personal attacks.

—JD4SF: Here here! Posters who become posers are not worthy of Giants Fan-dom. Those doing what you stated: “Are who they are when NOBODY’S watching them.

Have to consider the source.

Moving on 2.0……….

coachmm

Giants have no case. This was given to them for nothing, and there was no benefit to San Jose. San Jose could take this to court if need be.

The GIANTS need to stop being a bully. I enjoy both teams and have visited both parks, but I am an A’s fan first and Giants second. The Giants have their new park and now it is time for the A’s to have theirs. I will be saddened if the move to Santa Clara, but I hold the City of Oakland responsible for not helping out and I blame the owners of the A’s for destroying the team every year with different players to where they cannot come together effectively. Billie Bean needs to be BEAN BALLED. Oakland has the land so build that darn park already and save all the jobs instead of losing them. Politicians are idiots, and the BIGGEST idiot was Ron Dellums, what a waste of taxpayer money. Mr DO-NOTHING-DELLUMS but I sure do love photo-ops.

Rav4

Trading counties is a non-issue. It is not Santa Clara county fan base that the Giants are worried about, it is the corporate dollars of Silicon Valley that go into luxury boxes and advertisements that would get sucked out of AT&T park…

tom

that statement just made me 1) decide not to attend anymore giants games, 2) absolutely HATE the current giants leadership

Say Hey

Wow. All you wannabe lawyers should turn in the bar cards you got in your cereal boxes, or Cracker Jack, or internet night school. The Giants’ legal position is actually pretty strong and the antitrust exemption is not going to be threatened over an owner vs. owner dispute.

And yeah, one reason the A’s sold so cheap was because of the territorial rights, just like one reason the Giants’ ownership invested so much in a ballpark was because of assurances of territorial rights.

And the basic problem isn’t location for the A’s. It’s horrible ownership. Anyone who actually cared would have gotten something done by now in A’s territory, but these clowns want to do it with OPM and intentionally keep the talent level down while denigrating the area in order to keep attendance down so they can say they need to move. They are the Donald Sterlings of baseball.

Keep’n It Real

I think the A’s fans (or anyone saying “sue them”!) needs to do some homework before they waste any more space here.

* The Washington Nationals (a.k.a. the Montreal Expos) paid the Baltimore Orioles off, SO THEIR RELOCATION WAS NEVER DETERMINED BY THE OWNERS VOTE. This was not a situation where the owners voted to say the Nationals/Expos were righ to move and also setting a precedent.

This was Bud’s first real action as “Commish” and if you look at the way the Orioles attendance has dropped and how the Nationals have stocked up on phenominal talent (which will impact the Orioles attendance even more), the Orioles would undo this agreement in a minute.

* Lou Wolff purchased the A’s cheap and knew the territorial deal…and is now claiming poverty to get his way to move to San Jose. In reading around on the web, this was the same strategy he used when buying the SF Fairmont and trying to claim poverty to tear some of it down to make condos (when apparently this was known as a no-go when he purchased it). Oh yeh…he didn’t get the condos.

* There is also stuff out there on the web that shows the A’s can’t sue the Giants and MLB because of the by-laws. In addition to that, the existing MLB Constitution has a line in there that specifically adds Santa Clara County as part of the Giants territory! Oh yeh…the Cities of Oakland and San Francisco (who can sue) have threatened to sue MLB if they allow the A’s move to San Jose. Quick history…San Francisco threatened to do the same thing when the Giants were potentially going to move to SJ and that played a role in the Giants not moving.

* Lastly, Uncle Bud asked both team to keep quiet about this situation. A Hall of Fame Writer (Bill Madden) comes out with an article that goes against Wolff’s “If you say it enough times, it will come true” strategy… so Wolff (even though he didn’t put his name on it) comes out with his little memo that tries to swing public opinion into his favor; while also going against Uncle Bud’s quiet request. The Giants responded to set the record straight…and that’s what they’re probably telling Uncle Bud.

Wolff may be an expert at purchasing hotels on the cheap, but he’s sure not going himself any favors here. “IF” the Giants ever decide to allow this to happen, the compensation price keeps going up every time Wolff talks about or send memos out about this topic.

Sea

We are taking it back, GO A’s !

DO335

I am a Giants fan and will continue to be, but I wonder what percentage of the Giants ticket buyers come from Santa Clara County? How many of the current Contra County and Alameda County fans will start going to Giants games? I’m guessing the Giants will lose a few fans, but AT&T will still be sold out most games. I think the Giants are playing hard ball to get the best financial payment they can from MLB. Why wouldn’t MLB want a team in Silicon Valley?

Paul Heally

The legal issue that can come to light involving the Nats/O’s is not who or what brokered the deal–but that the deal happened. Remember, the Anti-Trust Exemption is based on all owners pulling in the SAME direction!
The Good, The Bad the Ugly of it is Lou Wolff is an opportunist–it’s a great way to gain wealth–sometimes bodies are left strewn along the road. The Giant ownership group is no different.
I don’t know who can or who will sue whom. What I am pretty sure of is it can be messy and nasty.
Work out a compensation plan–Giants might benefit by paying off their stadium early–they are already accelerating payments, let’s get a nice, new stadium in San Jose that benefits that area and keeps AL baseball in the area–we’re quite lucky IMHO opinion that we can see any team we wish live–altho it currently is easier, more affordable and nice locations in Oakland–kinda a nice by product.
Play BALL!!! 🙂

David H

Except for a few businessmen with ulterior motives have you noticed the number of Giant jersies and hats in the South Bay. Lots, how about those A’s fans, nearly empty.

This is Giant territory and the last thing I want to see is A’s banners dressing up the city streets of downtown SJ. Let the A’s move to Sacramento or better yet Build a Stadium with private money like the Giants did. What a concept.

DO335 says: March 8th, 2012 at 9:22 am 48..I am a Giants fan and will continue to be, but I wonder what percentage of the Giants ticket buyers come from Santa Clara County? How many of the current Contra County and Alameda County fans will start going to Giants games? I’m guessing the Giants will lose a few fans, but AT&T will still be sold out most games. I think the Giants are playing hard ball to get the best financial payment they can from MLB. Why wouldn’t MLB want a team in Silicon Valley?

DO335: I have taken the train from Santa Clara U’s train depot north to King street. The train is so packed that at seveal stops up the Peninsula there is NO seats available heading to ATT Park.

Also the Sharks have MOST of Silicon Valley Sponsorships sewn up and it has been that way for a long time.

I’m not sure if you heard him the other day on KNBR, but he sure seems to despise what Wolff has done with the A’s. It wouldn’t surprise me if Dolich has some thoughts that Wolff is disrespecting Mr. Haas’ memory with some of the things he is saying about Oakland and this territorial rights stuff (which wasn’t a problem during the Haas onwrship).

Paul Heally

Question to Ponder:

If the A’s move to San Jose and create same ballpark atmosphere you have at ATT, will this make the Giants have to Compete. The Giants have their Budget, their Rainy Day Fund and did not put out extra cash to get a bat this off-season. The Giants are going to make gobs of money whether they win or not in 2012. They can be a Third Place team and make money well into the future based on the current atmosphere; but if the A’s are in San Jose, can the Giants make the same gobs of money as a Third Place team? Or will such a move make them have to Compete more up to and including ticket prices. As it stands now, you can still get a $15 Opening Nite A’s Ticket where you have to buy a minimum 6-ticket plan to even get a Dynamic Priced ticket to the Giant’s Home Opener. How will that be if the A’s successfully make a move? Any thoughts?

Keep’n It Real

@ Paul Heally

First of all, you are asking very fair questions and it’s in a tone worthy of people providing honest responses. Thanks for that.

With the A’s in San Jose, I would agree with you that the Giants would have a hard time making money being a 3rd place team. I don’t see this as a “because they aren’t competing” issue, because I think the Giants Ownership Group saw first-hand the financial boost a winning team could bring.

My opinion is the issue is very similiar to a stream with two cities fishing out of this same stream. Since Cisco Field would be the first stop on this stream for any San Jose residence, there would be a lot more thought around not making the further down stream trip to AT&T (“Do I really want to deal with that 101 traffic to get to AT&T?”).

Yes…there are many diehard Giants fans that will continue making the trip, but the less-diehard fans will start taking the Cisco Field route. It’s all about convenience. From a long-term standpoint, the next generation of fans (kids that attend games @ Cisco instead of AT&T) will become diehard A’s fans. Then their kids become A’s fans, etc. That feeding system of South Bay fans (which the Giants said was 43% of their fan base) never makes it down stream to AT&T and attendance begins to take a huge hit.

I think you/I are aligned about the credibility of that rainy day fund (sounds “fishy” to me), but assuming it’s really in place for down-attendance years…I don’t think they set it up with any factor of the A’s being in San Jose.

Everyone has a favorite something (pizza place, clothes store, mechanic, etc.) that they are willing to make long drives to get there. If something of equal or greater satisfaction moves into a closer location, eventually there are less long drives to that favorite something… because of the closer alternative. I just see a whole lot of that with South Bay fans with regards to the Giants…if the A’s move to San Jose.

Last thing on Dynamic Pricing…just like the 49ers are doing in their new place with seat licenses (ala Raiders)…Dynamic Pricing will be part of Cisco Field. There’s money to be made 😉

Eduardo

@Keep’n It Real

Well stated. I assume the same rules would apply to residents of Alameda and Contra Costa counties as well.

I’m a Giants fan, I prefer the NL, but I also feel the Bay Area deserves and can easily support two MLB teams. I also think the largest city in the Bay Area, almost 50 miles away from AT&T, is deserving of a downtown ballpark and an MLB franchise. I’m okay with a new park in Oakland (hey, if it were in Jack London Square, fans could throw rocks at each other across the Bay), but it doesn’t look like the city can pull it off.

So it seems to me the best thing for the A’s is to move south, and the only major impediment is a ludicrous (at least to my thinking) and outdated ownership claim by a franchise currently much closer to their competition than they would be if they relocated (and significantly further away from the South Bay than when they were at Candlestick). The longer this charade goes on, the more I am resenting and disliking the arrogant approach the Giants organization is taking toward the city of San Jose and us baseball fans in the South Bay. They shouldn’t take us for granted, and if they continue to treat the South Bay as chattel, I could see a backlash. I, myself, am already feeling a bit of it.

Keep’n It Real

@ Eduardo

I think we can agree regarding the Jack London Square spot. That would be very, very cool.

No one can tell you how to feel, but being a South Bay native myself… I’m not looking the Giants approach as arrogant . I see their approach as very business smart…and this could very well be because I see business decisions all the time in my daily life. As someone else said, if Costco had territorial rights to a specific area, why would they allow a Sam’s Club to move into their territory? I know if I owned a business and had those rights, I wouldn’t give them up. I also do not think this is directed at San Jose fans…it’s directed right at Wolff.

The 2nd thing that makes me feel differently than you is Wolff himself. He is a real estate guy that feeds off opportunities of the “weak” to make lots off $$. I know 100% it’s business, but this “I’m a victim of being unable to make money, so we need alter known decisions” song…to make even more gigantic loads of money…seems to be his cookie-cutter approach to everything (see SF Fairmont comment above).

I just get this feeling that his plan is to get San Jose…sell the team for even more profit…then rake in the $$$ on the surrounding hotels and such he’ll build by the ballpark. None of this is for the baseball fans per se, it’s for his wallet. There’s this slime feeling to all of this; which was never there when the Haas family owned the A’s. I would bet some garlic fries that the Giants would be treating the Haas family much differently.

Assuming you live in San Jose (you said South Bay), you will have a voice in all this if that land deal for Wolff goes to vote. Maybe we can get a TV debate between Baer and Wolff prior to the vote! 😉

Don’t give up on the Giants!

Mnik101

This was pulled directly from the MLB Constitution with regards to shared territories in other markets:

Chicago Cubs: Cook, Lake, DuPage, Will, Kendall, McHenry and Grundy Counties in Illinois; and Lake and Porter Counties in Indiana; provided, however, that this territory shall be shared with the Chicago White Sox franchise in the American League;

Chicago White Sox: Cook, Lake, DuPage, Will, Kendall, McHenry and Grundy Counties in Illinois; and Lake and Porter Counties in Indiana; provided, however, that this territory shall be shared with the Chicago Cubs franchise in the National League;

Los Angeles Dodgers: Orange, Ventura and Los Angeles Counties in California; provided, however, that this territory shall be shared with the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim franchise in the American League;

Los Angeles, Orange and Ventura Counties in California; provided, however, that this territory shall be shared with the Los Angeles Dodgers franchise in the National League;

New York Mets: City of New York; Nassau, Suffolk, Rockland and Westchester Counties in New York; Bergen, Hudson, Essex and Union Counties in New Jersey; and thatportion of Fairfield County in Connecticut located south of Interstate 84 and west of Route 58; provided, however, that this territory shall be shared with the New York Yankees franchise in the American League;

New York Yankees: City of New York; Nassau, Suffolk, Rockland and Westchester Counties in New York; Bergen, Hudson, Essex and Union Counties in New Jersey; and that portion of Fairfield County in Connecticut located south of Interstate 84 and west of Route 58; provided, however, that this territory shall be shared with the New York Mets franchise in the National League;

San Francisco Giants: City of San Francisco; and San Francisco, San Mateo, Santa Cruz, Monterey and Marin Counties in California; provided, however, that with respect to all Major League Clubs, Santa Clara County in California shall also be included;

Oakland Athletics: Alameda and Contra Costa Counties in California

Seems to me the Bay Area, (San Francisco, Alameda, San Mateo, Marin, Contra Costa, Monterey, Santa Cruz, and Santa Clara) should be shared territory for the Giants and the A’s

Paul Heally

The location and value issue is quite huge. As an individual Giants Fan living in the Central Valley (Tracy), I’ll go to approx 3-5 Giants games while I just purchased an A’s Season Ticket Plan because A) it’s significantly cheaper and B) closer to go to. And I’ll get to see three Giant’s games to boot.
But I do purchse Cable so I can see the games! 🙂
As someone that grew up in San Jose without The Shark Tank, if I still lived there, I’d be pretty miffed about the Giants blocking a move–so I can certainly understand any backlash that may be occuring with Giants fans let alone citizens missing out on a great entertainment venue(ballparks have other uses as ATT is demonstrating–first time I ever went to ATT was not for a Giants game but a Dave Matthews Concert) as well as tax generatiion, redevelopment and cultural opportunites–this just ain’t about baseball and man there are over 1MM folk in San Jose.
Something I have not really delved into is what do the good folk os San Jose think? In the past stadiums have been struck down. I don’t think we even really know what the Lew and Cohorts plans are to build a stadium–I remember there was a rediculous $400MM price tag–that might build you The Tank II but not a modern ball park.
And really what are the Giants fighting over. Their revenues are well over $300MM and their Revenue Sharing would indicate ticketing is about $100MM of this. How much of that is truly at risk? Well, if you become a Third or Fourth place team–which could happen–probably a sizable bit. There isn’t enuff time or room to plunge into the matter now, but I truly believe the answer lies in that Mythical, Magical, Mountain of Money called “The Rainy Day Fund” 🙂

Based on Forbes Magazine, the Giants are only one of Five Teams to make money EVERY year in the last 11. An A’s move to San Jose will probably provide more than enough funds to pay off ATT. They will own their own stadium. Have a great media package. Really, what are they worrying about? Perhaps having to Compete Every Year to ensure that profitable streak as well as build Value. That what I believe they are worried about.

Play BALL!!!!

Eduardo

@Keep’n It Real

Sorry, but I doubt very much that the Giants are taking their stance because it’s Lew Wulff rather than the Hass family. Hey, he’s probably a royal schmuck, but that doesn’t change the merit San Jose has for a MLB ballpark and franchise.

And, to reiterate, it’s 50 miles away, for God’s sake!

And yes, I live in the South Bay, but in Los Gatos, so I don’t think I’ll have a vote.

Last thought, if Lew’s a schmuck, and he probably is, what can we presume about his fraternity brother Bud. Yikes!

Eduardo

And maybe it was the Haas family, after all, that screwed this whole thing up by graciously granting unconditional (or were they?) territorial rights to Santa Clara county to the Giants back in ’92.

What a fiasco!

I feel violated.

There has to be an anti-trust exemption law suit here somewhere, and I doubt the Giants want that to come down. I think I fully understand the business side of all this, but corporate image is important, too–right, Walmart?

Eduardo

Also, thank you Mnik101 for your pointing out that the other three two-team markets don’t have the same territorial rights issues that our enlightened Bay Area has.

Time for the OAKLAND A’s to build a water front stadium in OAKLAND. Build it and they will come, 40,000 per year. Otherwise, hello Sacramento or Las Vegas.

Citizen

Why not let the fans decide? I am refusing to go to any more giants games even if the A’s don’t move because of how this is playing out. I won’t give the Giants another dime. Additionally, Fans will go where they want to go. I still watched the Raiders when they moved to LA. Over time the population base Fan base will change. Contra Costa fans will go to Giants games if the A’s move. Hopefully, in Mid March we will get an answer to all this. It is taking way too long.

Keep’n It Real

Interesting article that explains some of the roadblocks for the A’s to move and getting 3/4 approval from the owners.

I’m far from an expert on this, so I kind of poked around on the web about this.

* It appears if anyone tries to challenge this, it would have to be from San Jose.

* The MLB guards this exemption with their lives, so they would have unlimited funding to fight any challenge off.

* San Jose residents (as a whole) would probably go ballistic because of tax dollars being used to fight a fight that they may not win; especially when other sensitive cuts (services, pension plans, etc.) are being made because the city is being financially challenged.

* I’m not 100% sure about this…so here’s my disclaimer…but I read somewhere that the anti-trust exemption would have to be heard by Senate Members…and 2 of the strongest senators are from CA (Boxer and Feinstein)…and are also from SF area. Feinstein actually threatened to sue San Jose back when the Giants were thinking about moving there.

Huge puzzle to be sorted out in the coming weeks/months.

Mnik101

In the end I think we will see a deal similar in strucure and terms like the one that allowed the Expos to move to DC. That deal provided initial compensated to the Orioles and shares media revenue between the Nationals and Orioles.

I think it is a done deal, the A’s will be allowed to move. It’s just a matter of compensation for the Giants and restructuring the territorial rights. There is more going on behind closed doors than has been let on, and has been said publicly is more posturing than anything.

Mnik101

Excuse me…
And what has been said publicly on both sides is more posturing than anything.

Mnik101

I think it is a done deal, the A’s will be allows to move to San Jose. It’s just a matter of compensation for the Giants, restructuring of the territorial rights and media revenue sharing. There is more going behind closed doors than is being let on, and what has come out publicly on both sides is more posturing than anything.

I think the deal in the end will be similar to the one that allowed the Expos to move to D.C. and provided compensation to the Orioles.

Its not a matter of “if” or “when”, but rather “How Much”.

Keep’n It Real

Mnik 101-

I respect your opinion (hey…none of us are behind closed doors), but I don’t think it’s going to happen.

There’s too much in the “tea leaves” that say other owners won’t want their territorial rights touched and San Jose will have a hard time (financially) dealing with lawsuits from Oakland and SF (both of whom said they would sue)…and fighting off the MLB in any anti-trust exemption lawsuit. Wolff going against Bud’s wishes for “quiet” and ticking off the Giants won’t help with any deal making either.

They were talking on the A’s Station yesterday afternoon (“The Game”) and the radio hosts were both saying (after the Giants factual response to the A’s release…their words; not mine), “this isn’t going to happen”.

I could be wrong (just as you could), but if we were playing on a Giants/A’s re-location roulette table with their logos, that where my chips would be.

We’ll see. I would imagine after this last exchange between the two franchises, Bud will have to do something.

JeffB

Funny thing is regarding the Yankees & Mets, their ballparks reside just 10 miles apart.

I think the whole territorial rights is BS: Give them to no one and let them build their fan bases like they have in NY.

The A’s could build their new ballpark within 10 miles of AT&T but I still don’t see Giants season ticket holders giving up their tickets to become A’s fans.

Thank you for the nice weblog. It was very useful for me. Keep sharing such ideas within the future as well. This was actually what I was looking for, and I am glad to came right here! Many thanks for sharing the such tips with us

I do trust all the concepts you’ve introduced for your post. They are really convincing and will certainly work. Still, the posts are very quick for novices. May just you please prolong them a little from next time? Thanks for the post.