Shepoid wrote:I went to the link and it's all the same pant-load of Ken Burns crap.To say that Bill Evans wrote Blue in green in mind bogling given the fact that the album was completly wriitten by miles and Bill Evans wrote the liner notes.

"Blue in Green" sounds like Bill Evans to me.

Shepoid wrote:I will not argue with you. If you want to believe revisionist history, so be it. Join in with the rest of the liberal, racist, nit witted musicoligist bottom feeders.

I thought the whole Burns/Marsalis revisionist thing was the opposite to what you're saying, i.e. that white guys can't play jazz and have never contributed to it in any meaningful way?

Thrip:
to quote you;
"I thought the whole Burns/Marsalis revisionist thing was the opposite to what you're saying, i.e. that white guys can't play jazz and have never contributed to it in any meaningful way?"
That's called racism my friend.
What do you think, racism only applies when talking about blacks?
That what you mention above is the highest and most insidious form of racism. Marsalis and Burns are both shovelers of that kind of thing. As is every revisionist liberal academic pant-load.

Regarding important changes: You might look at chapter 20 of Mark Levine's The Jazz Theory Book, which is just a list of heads matched to the name of the original tune (i.e., the tune whose chord progression is used as a foundation for the head). There's also a whole chapter on 'Coltrane changes', if you're interested.

I'm confused as to what your position is on this. The way I read it was that you think it racist to entertain the idea that Bill Evans could have had a hand in the composition of "Blue in Green" Yes/no?

Bill Evans had nothing, I repeat had nothing, nothing at all to do with the compositional structure of Blue in Green. He did get to look at Mile's chart very briefly before the recording session started. That's about the size of it.
I suggest you read the back liner notes written by Bill Evans where he talks about the album , improvisation as it relates to Japanese painting and how the music came about and was presented to the group by Miles.
And to further address your post,
You have completely missed my point about the liberal Fascist academic musicologist elitists, and the perverse nature by which such folks of authority continue to preserve racism in it's most insidious and malevolent form by putting colors onto this music we call Jazz. Jazz is both European and American and all the colors that that ebodies. It's a beautiful thing.
It is the liberal Fascist academic musicologist elitist revisionists like Ken Burns, who want it to be known as a black only art form. It's so absurd.

Shepoid wrote: You have completely missed my point about the liberal Fascist academic musicologist elitists, and the perverse nature by which such folks of authority continue to preserve racism in it's most insidious and malevolent form by putting colors onto this music we call Jazz. Jazz is both European and American and all the colors that that ebodies. It's a beautiful thing.It is the liberal Fascist academic musicologist elitist revisionists like Ken Burns, who want it to be known as a black only art form. It's so absurd.

I apologise if I misinterpreted your post. On the other hand, I wasn't overly thrilled at it being inferred that perhaps I was a) racist, or b) too dim to get the concept of inverse racism.

Shepoid wrote:Bill Evans had nothing, I repeat had nothing, nothing at all to do with the compositional structure of Blue in Green. He did get to look at Mile's chart very briefly before the recording session started. That's about the size of it.I suggest you read the back liner notes written by Bill Evans where he talks about the album , improvisation as it relates to Japanese painting and how the music came about and was presented to the group by Miles.

The theory about "Blue in Green" being co-written by Bill Evans has been around for ages, way before Ken Burns even thought of doing a series on jazz. The idea that Miles wrote the first few bars and Evans suggested a few chord changes surely isn't too fanciful? After all, it's well known that none of the players in the band had played any of the music before, and Miles arrived at the studio with only sketches.

In fact, it appears that Evans himself thought that he had contributed significantly to the tune. On his album "Portrait in Jazz" from December 1959, just a handful of months after the recording of "Kind of Blue, it is credited Davis-Evans.

it is funny to see a request for a modern jazz tune here when there are so many purists who dull this forum. Django played bebop before he died (Appel direct - prime example) but there are people here who would say it doesn't follow gypsy tradition. I have a version of Grappelly playing it and might have the music (dots and chords) - i will check when i get back from work.

hey, if you have the dots and chords that would be fantastic! normally i try to be a purist because i think it helps me retain focus on my learning process but I think of this tune, among other non-gypsy jazz tunes, as important to my learning process also.

I first heard the story about "Tune-Up" and "Four" in 1984. My source - an older guy from Alabama who was playing drums in the Marcus Roberts trio while Marcus was at Fla A+M in Tallahassee. This guy's name was Jackie something-or-other and he'd played with Miles in NYC back in the 50s. What all of this has to do with Ken Burns (who I know nothing about except that he does television documentaries) and racism is beyond me. Eddie Vinson was black. Miles Davis was black. How is saying a that a white guy actually wrote a classic like "Blue in Green" or that a different black guy wrote "Four" racist, if the intention is to marginalize the contributions white folks made to jazz?

All I meant to say was that many people - whose opinions I have ample reason to respect - believe that Eddie "Cleanhead" Vinson actually wrote "Tune-Up" and "Four". I didn't intend to start some nasty political arguement. I don't "know" that Eddie Vinson wrote "Tune-Up". All I know is that some people think he did.

Shep - you know better? Fine. Maybe you can let us in on exactly how you know better. Maybe you were there? If you weren't there, maybe you could try saying "I don't think so" instead of "I know better" - just as a matter of good manners... And what this all has to do with liberal politics, fascism, musicology etc I simply can't imagine.

Jon - I don't know what your criteria for "traditional" gypsy repertoire is, but I have several recordings of gypsy guitarists playing this tune going back to 1963 - same with tunes like "Cherokee". I would say that in previous decades, the "gypsy jazz" repertoire was considerably larger than what we have today. Maurice Ferre once told me that he knew over 1000 tunes that he could play any time. PM me your address and I'll be happy to send you a chart - the melody is simple, exactly as played through the first chorus on the Alma Sinti version. BTW, it's a Real Book version and it does credit Miles Davis LOL!

All in all, I am now skeptical about this Ken Burns guy. He seems to be a bit biased about the subject of Jazz. I wonder what effect his beliefs had on our beloved Django Reinhardt's role in the movies? Would Django have been a more important figure in the jazz documentary if this one guy (Mr. Burns) hadn't made the films all by himself?