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Todd was working on a Classic with the full package when I went up to visit him. I don't know the results. I've had Todd re-map my ECU a couple times (initial to address overall lean condition from the factory and then again when I added an aftermarket exhaust). It's definitely worth the effort. The bike starts easier, runs cooler and there are no flat spots anywhere. No popping either.

I've just done 300kms on my Stone, I haven't noticed any popping, but its still stock. I'm waiting for the Mistral's and the BMC filter from Todd.

It's just too bad that guys haven't gone full on with their V7's. I'd imagine that with the full tuning package and BMC/Mistral that it would not only run optimal but also wake up the entire rpm range, judging by the results the big blocks have. I think it would be neat when you would like to have a spirited ride and be able peg the tacho on each shift and feel it pull nicely all the way up.

I know there is the sticky with the V7 classic that got some stuff done, but it didn't seem to work out and it really didn't give us the insight on tuning.

That said, I'd never have done it if there wasn't a need to address (in my case, pinging).

The smallblock motor is VERY different from the big block in head/combustion chamber design and tuning. Not to mention the new single throttle body motors are tuned a good bit different from the dual-throttle body motors.

So I guess I'm saying that I wouldn't necessarily expect there is a lot to be gained on reflashing the new motor ECU based on results with the old motor or big block ECU.

I would first see if there is a "need".

Do you think it is running too hot, or are there flat spots, or is there popping etc?

And come to think of it, the popping on my Breva 1100 started AFTER the reflash, but that's a whole other thing.

Personally if my Stone keeps running the way it does now, I don't think there will be any discernable need for or benefit from a reflash.

The need is there, as these engine run lean from the factory in stock form. Improving airflow through the intake and exhaust without fixing its fuel and timing maps means that it will running hotter and not last as long, as well as not getting the best from with the mods.

I have mine ECU ready to ship off to him. I put in an O2 optimizer on mine from Todd for a temp fix. The o2 optimizer helped quite a bit, the bike started easier, did not have to wait as long for warm up and better throttle response. I am runnig a full Zard system and when I take out the db killers it pops quite a bit. With the db killers in it is noticable but much quiter. I am hoping the reflash will get rid of this.

I have mine ECU ready to ship off to him. I put in an O2 optimizer on mine from Todd for a temp fix. The o2 optimizer helped quite a bit, the bike started easier, did not have to wait as long for warm up and better throttle response. I am runnig a full Zard system and when I take out the db killers it pops quite a bit. With the db killers in it is noticable but much quiter. I am hoping the reflash will get rid of this.

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Nice! I love the look of the ZARD system. I've looked all over for a vid of it running, but with no luck. Maybe you can enlighten us by a vid of your system?

The need is there, as these engine run lean from the factory in stock form. Improving airflow through the intake and exhaust without fixing its fuel and timing maps means that it will running hotter and not last as long, as well as not getting the best from with the mods.
Matt

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I know that is the popular thinking on the matter. But there are some possible misconceptions and arguable points in that view.

Yes, modern bikes run leaner than their predecessors because THEY CAN. I.e. we have the technology to safely do that. Cars today run much leaner still, and they aren't all failing prematurely due to those leaner mixtures.

But these motors are air cooled some will decry. Sure, but if anything that means they were often over cooled when running richer. See Pete Roper's current theory over some Griso 8V failures, heat isn't always the enemy.

That doesn't mean the OEM tune doesn't involve compromises or can't be improved upon. It just questions the ROI and "necessity".

Now if you make changes to the intake or exhaust you MIGHT make it a necessity. But that depends on the severity of the changes. It depends on whether or not the resultant effects take the exhaust gasses out of the range of the O2 sensors on this new motor and/or beyond the ability of the ECU to trim. If not, your statements above are in error.

And remember there isn't much power to be gained on these small motors, so you have to ask if it is worthvit.

I have mine ECU ready to ship off to him. I put in an O2 optimizer on mine from Todd for a temp fix. The o2 optimizer helped quite a bit, the bike started easier, did not have to wait as long for warm up and better throttle response. I am runnig a full Zard system and when I take out the db killers it pops quite a bit. With the db killers in it is noticable but much quiter. I am hoping the reflash will get rid of this.

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Nice! I love the look of the ZARD system. I've looked all over for a vid of it running, but with no luck. Maybe you can enlighten us by a vid of your system?

Are you going for the PCV and AT as well?

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I am just going with the reflash for now. Maybe the PC and AT next year. My budget will be spent by the time I buy mirrors, lower headlight bracket and the Centurion software. I will try to get a video up when I get it back together.

I have mine ECU ready to ship off to him. I put in an O2 optimizer on mine from Todd for a temp fix. The o2 optimizer helped quite a bit, the bike started easier, did not have to wait as long for warm up and better throttle response. I am runnig a full Zard system and when I take out the db killers it pops quite a bit. With the db killers in it is noticable but much quiter. I am hoping the reflash will get rid of this.

Click to expand...

Nice! I love the look of the ZARD system. I've looked all over for a vid of it running, but with no luck. Maybe you can enlighten us by a vid of your system?

Are you going for the PCV and AT as well?

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I am just going with the reflash for now. Maybe the PC and AT next year. My budget will be spent by the time I buy mirrors, lower headlight bracket and the Centurion software. I will try to get a video up when I get it back together.

Do you have proof of your statements, that's nothing to be had or very little for improvements?

I haven't seen or heard of results to either side of the argument yet. Since nobody has actually tried.

It would be nice to see if GT do the full package and post up dyno results stock vs not...

Matt

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Proof - yeah, search some threads on WildGuzzi - it's been rehased dozens of times by experts on Guzzis and on Smallblocks.

The reason not too many have tried was those who went before said not to bother.

That said, he who cannot be mentioned by named here (former partner of Todd's) has managed I think about 50 hp (rear wheel) out of a dual-throttle body motor - BUT BUT BUT THAT IS NOT from an intake/exhaust/reflash. In the articles he's published (in print) and on his website (which cannot be mentioned here) he started with intake/exhaust and found VERY LITTLE (like every report we have seen over the years) and then went on to replacing the pistons and jugs (850cc kit) and doing head work.

Also, to be clear, most of this is talking about peak hp - I can't say if there isn't indeed something more to find down lower (and more usable) rpm range. Though also to be clear this applies to the OLD dual-throttle body motor.

I would be surprised if the peak results don't also apply to the new 1TB motor, BUT I also believe the new 1TB motor has already fattened the usable power lower in the rpm range, so again, we may already be reaching the limits of what this motor can do with the current pistons/heads/combustion chamber etc.

Instg8r said:

I've modified a lot of cars, it's MY experience that lean is not desirable at all, I don't see why a MC should be different.

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WELL - depends on what you mean by lean. The law of diminishing returns applies to lean or rich mixtures, EXTREMES of either are not "desireable".

And yes, the stoichimetric 14.7:1 ratio required for ideal cat-con operation leaves some room for improvement from a power standpoint. But pig rich isn't the answer either, and you do generally make your MOST power ricker than 14.7:1 but leaner than say 12:1 ish. A slightly leaner burn is still a hotter and more complete burn in most cases.

Anyway you have to realize there ARE differences between cars and cycles when it comes to the wacky EPA regulations. Unless something has changed, they are normally tested and certified AT IDLE and NOT at WOT. Manufacturers have gone out of their way for years now to make them run lean enough at idle and in closed-loop operation to pass emissions certs but have often overcompensated in open-loop especially from part throttle to WOT.

Todd has sorta demonstrated this because with my B11 he not only gave it a kick in the pants (remember, bigger motor, was starting with 75 rwhp so a few percent more would mean a larger difference) WHILE ALSO giving me better fuel mileage at certain points of the map (specifically when flogging the piss out of it, turns out he must have actually LEANED some parts of the map).

That said, I'll be paying close attention to your or anyone else's report who chooses to reflash the new 1TB motor to see what results you feel.

As you read from my earlier post I didn't say peak hp. I said a broader rpm range, if peak hp remained the same but now there was more power beyond 6000 I would be happy. AND AND AND with such a light bike, any improvements even small would have a greater effect. We still haven't seen what the new single TB engine can do.

Huh, I am surprised more people have not done the full package on here. Let me see, I had Todd re-flash my ECU, and I have installed a PCV with AutoTune. It is like a whole new bike, it runs so much better now. I have played with the tuning a bit, and a AF ratio of 13.2 to 1 works really well. I am planning to dyno the bike this summer, just to see what kind of power it's making, and to tune it. That will set a baseline, and then I am going to install some 4 valve Lario heads and see what the difference is. Some of the other mods I've done, I fabricated an airbox to give me a still air intake plenum, then attached the intake runners to a velocity stack on the throttle bodies. I'm using K&N filters in the airbox, and Agostini pipes for the exhaust. I had Norton peashooters on for a while, but they seemed to flow too freely. If I whacked open the throttle hard, it would create a momentary lean condition, and there was a little hesitation. Watching the AF ratio on the LCD200 display, I could see it go to 16 to 1 momentarily. Anyway, the airbox and Agostinis fixed all of that.
I can't stress enough how pleased I am with the re-flash and PCV/AT combination. It is well worth the money.

I have a 2010 V7 Classic. It was ok when I first got it, but it needed more ooomph. The reason I finally got the reflash/pcv/at is so that I could tune it with K&N pods. It runs so much better now, it is like a different bike. It will be interesting to see if the baseline fueling is close when I put the four valve heads on. Im pretty sure I will have to dyno it again to tune it for that. Anyway, the top end is much better. I replaced the 8/33 gears in the rear end with an 8/31
gear set. Just today I broke the ton in fourth gear, the revs were about 7000. Plenty of room left for fifth gear. When I first got the bike it would barely get over 100 mph, like 102 or so, that was all it would do. I have not done a top speed run after the changes I made. I got it up to 115 one time, got scared and backed off. It still had some throttle left at that point. Anyway, I am pretty passionate about the bike, its a good one!

Wow sounds like fun! Any vids or future ones planed of your V7 with its current setup? We need some V7 enthusiasm. There seems to be a certain negativity towards trying to get the most out of the small block with some, it reminds me of what some Land Rover forum members were like when I posted my plans to supercharge, improve the FI setup, and install long tube headers and exhaust. All I got was "why bother"? Umm because I don't like mediocre performance when there is room for improvement. I opted not to supercharge because I needed to decide where my money was going to be spent, but I still did the headers, exhaust, and intake. Now it's on road performance is great.

I realize I'm a very new rider, but even I can tell things get wheezy as you 6000 rpm. I also realize the design doesn't lend itself to top end performance, but that doesn't mean it can't be helped to make it a wider more tractable power range instead of have the party leave at 5500. If I wanted a low revving v twin I would have bought a HD...lol

I know the MG V7 is about its style and handling in its smallness and lightness which is why I have become a V7 owner, but all of the rider mags talk about how it could use a little more power. And I agree, just a little more with improvements in the rpm range would take these small light bike to another level.

I wonder if there is any benefit or possibility to run the newer 1TB engine with the 2TB's and FI of the older V7's? I would assume the match of the improved engine with more flow of the 2TB's would help create that wide power range?