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But we compare here Thoma, or Touma if you want, with Nanoha and like he says that is not fair. Touma have proof so far to be too naïve, easy to trick and overall not that great of a fighter because even when he does noise almost all of his battles end with him being rescue. Just saying that so far he doesn’t shine that much compare with Nanoha herself who was more proactive, did not just sit and wait for things to happen and was more focus on her goals. I mean Thoma just seems to ignore the evil in the Hückebein family for some sense of owing them something and yet I have to consider that the Hückebein family does show villainous behavior that I can’t just forget. Like killing innocents, blowing things up, trying to murder members of the SD6 and then I see Thoma saying “I am glad you are here”. I just can’t get him.

Sure, Thoma is less proactive, but only because RF6 keep him on a tighter leash than Lindy ever had Nanoha. You know, the same Nanoha who just ignored how Fate was endangering the entirety of earth with her actions to help her. The same Nanoha who wanted to talk to the Wolkenritter, who up to that point had shown no signs of being friendly at all and have a murder record well in the billions.

Sure, Thoma is less proactive, but only because RF6 keep him on a tighter leash than Lindy ever had Nanoha. You know, the same Nanoha who just ignored how Fate was endangering the entirety of earth with her actions to help her. The same Nanoha who wanted to talk to the Wolkenritter, who up to that point had shown no signs of being friendly at all and have a murder record well in the billions.

I don't think either instances are really the same. Nanoha had no clue what Fate planned on doing with the jewel seeds, and Fate was still convinced her mom wasn't a raging lunatic (though I admit, she probably would have collected them for her regardless).

And the same goes for the wolkenritter. They were not friendly by any means, but there was no real knowledge of them being mass murderers. Even so, billions? Did they destroy entire planets or something?

Though I always think of a key difference between salvageable characters and the hopeless ones, are empathy. Cypha for instance acts all maniacal with laughter w/e she slices someone to bits without the slightest bit of remorse. While the cast from the previous seasons clearly did not enjoy the things they were forced into doing.

Quattro for instance is a case of an un-salaveable character. And we see what Nanoha did with her.

I don't think either instances are really the same. Nanoha had no clue what Fate planned on doing with the jewel seeds, and Fate was still convinced her mom wasn't a raging lunatic (though I admit, she probably would have collected them for her regardless).

Regardless, she was a dangerous person. I can understand Nanoha being hesitant to hurt someone, but to go from that to "hey person who is collecting dangerous materials for unknown purposes, let's be friends!" is quite a leap.

I will grant you that Fate's case is not exactly the same, as she expressed sympathy during their first meeting.

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Originally Posted by Demi.

And the same goes for the wolkenritter. They were not friendly by any means, but there was no real knowledge of them being mass murderers. Even so, billions? Did they destroy entire planets or something?

Uhm... yes? The book of darkness, remember? The Wolkenritter are responsible for entire planets going poof, not to mention that capturing linker cores is not the healthiest of undertakings either. Not killing during A's was an exception.

Yes, it turned out they didn't know about the book making planets go poof, but Nanoha & co didn't find out that little detail until much later, while Nanoha went "Hey, let's be friends!" almost immediately.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demi.

Though I always think of a key difference between salvageable characters and the hopeless ones, are empathy. Cypha for instance acts all maniacal with laughter w/e she slices someone to bits without the slightest bit of remorse. While the cast from the previous seasons clearly did not enjoy the things they were forced into doing.

Quattro for instance is a case of an un-salaveable character. And we see what Nanoha did with her.

But even those that enjoy it can be redeemed. Wendi for example had a lot of fun beating the crap out of TSAB personnel.

I personally think that while the previous seasons were a story about "help the antagonists break the cycle they are caught in" Force takes it a step further to become "and redeem those on the dark path back into the light."

It's a theory, but given how we are already introduced to another faction that looks at the Huck's evil and takes another a step further, it's a likely one.

Are you sure? I remember some fateful Megami Sound Stage who dared to imply Yuuno, Nanoha and Vivio are close enough to have some sort of family dynamic it was quickly dismissed by rabid fans as canon discontinuity and after ViVid called Nanoha/Fate/Vivio the "Takamachi Family" said sound stage was totally forgotten and buried under tons of rocks xD Andyes, it was also strongly implied Tsuzuki didn't wrote that one xDU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keroko

Sure, Thoma is less proactive, but only because RF6 keep him on a tighter leash than Lindy ever had Nanoha. You know, the same Nanoha who just ignored how Fate was endangering the entirety of earth with her actions to help her. The same Nanoha who wanted to talk to the Wolkenritter, who up to that point had shown no signs of being friendly at all and have a murder record well in the billions.

Yeah, the key difference is that when Nanoha identified her foes as hostile she did her utmost best to beat them in order to have the chance to talk. Hell, her approaches with Vita on A's were what earned her the title of "White Devil" ...when Nanoha targets you for friendship you either listen or get blasted ...and then you'll have to listen anyway xDU

Tohma, not so much... when the psycho eye-patched, sword-wielding murderer
lands on the battlefield Tohma is all "yo Cypha, how are you xD!"

Are you sure? I remember some fateful Megami Sound Stage who dared to imply Yuuno, Nanoha and Vivio are close enough to have some sort of family dynamic it was quickly dismissed by rabid fans as canon discontinuity and after ViVid called Nanoha/Fate/Vivio the "Takamachi Family" said sound stage was totally forgotten and buried under tons of rocks xD Andyes, it was also strongly implied Tsuzuki didn't wrote that one xDU

Authors tend to be strongly motivated by what their fans like. Fans, particularly when it comes to romance, can be quite... vocal about what they like. And hate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Yeah, the key difference is that when Nanoha identified her foes as hostile she did her utmost best to beat them in order to have the chance to talk. Hell, her approaches with Vita on A's were what earned her the title of "White Devil" ...when Nanoha targets you for friendship you either listen or get blasted ...and then you'll have to listen anyway xDU

Tohma, not so much... when the psycho eye-patched, sword-wielding murderer
lands on the battlefield Tohma is all "yo Cypha, how are you xD!"

You're taking the final conversation and matching it up against the first. Do recall that when they fought on the jungle planet, Nanoha even took the risk of approaching Vita unarmed to talk. Not blast into submission, talk.

Are you sure? I remember some fateful Megami Sound Stage who dared to imply Yuuno, Nanoha and Vivio are close enough to have some sort of family dynamic it was quickly dismissed by rabid fans as canon discontinuity and after ViVid called Nanoha/Fate/Vivio the "Takamachi Family" said sound stage was totally forgotten and buried under tons of rocks xD Andyes, it was also strongly implied Tsuzuki didn't wrote that one xDU

There was no such sound stage. The one you're talking about merely mentioned how Vivio was working at the library, and how Fate was giving Nanoha and Vivio some space and took on a more big sister like role.

The Takamachi Family thing came from a track title. They've never actually been refered to as such in universe.

But yeah, fans will deny anything that doesn't fit into their ideal image.

Location: Somewhere over the rainbow, in a house dropped on an ugly, old woman.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demi.

I don't think either instances are really the same. Nanoha had no clue what Fate planned on doing with the jewel seeds, and Fate was still convinced her mom wasn't a raging lunatic (though I admit, she probably would have collected them for her regardless).

The problem comes in that they didn't know what Fate had planned for them. Nanoha still wanted to know, just in case, even though she accepted they might have to fight. But Fate was collecting very dangerous objects, and on that merit alone, I agree with Lindy and Chrono; she had to be stopped.

Quote:

And the same goes for the wolkenritter. They were not friendly by any means, but there was no real knowledge of them being mass murderers. Even so, billions? Did they destroy entire planets or something?

Their past "lives." According to Chrono, there was no record of them being anything but servant killing machines for their masters. Essentially, he and the rest of the Bureau considered them merciless robotic killing machines. Imagine Nanoha trying to reason with a T-1000 Terminator, for an image of what Chrono must have felt Nanoha was doing.

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Quattro for instance is a case of an un-salaveable character. And we see what Nanoha did with her.

This is a fair point, and one of the reasons I wrote Crisis. Then again, Quattro wasn't exactly nice to her daughter, but Nanoha still only stunned and knocked out Quattro, instead of killing her. As far as we know, that is where the animosity ended. And you'll note that even when coming into the throne room, Nanoha still attempted to talk with Quattro, instead of going for the shot immediately.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Are you sure? I remember some fateful Megami Sound Stage who dared to imply Yuuno, Nanoha and Vivio are close enough to have some sort of family dynamic it was quickly dismissed by rabid fans as canon discontinuity and after ViVid called Nanoha/Fate/Vivio the "Takamachi Family" said sound stage was totally forgotten and buried under tons of rocks xD Andyes, it was also strongly implied Tsuzuki didn't wrote that one xDU

The only sound stage that comes close, is one in which Nanoha, Fate, and Hayate are talking about Yuuno, noting that he and Nanoha have a "special relationship" that can't be put into words. Nanoha doesn't quite get what they mean, and Fate bemoans the fact and says she'll cheer for Yuuno. Nanoha still ends up clueless. The "special relationship" I take to mean that Nanoha and Yuuno are very close friends as well as being teacher/student. Even as someone who liked Yuunoha, that is not something to hang any definitive hat on. It was a Megami sound stage where they were answering fan questions. The "Takamachi Family" sound stage which refers more to Nanoha/Fate/Vivio was also a Megami sound stage, so you either take both as canon or both as not.

When you remove the Megami sound stages, and just focus on the more official ones, you find them to be more relationship-neutral, preferring not to say much of anything in that regard. You have to go to the manga to pick up the more outright talk of relationships and shipping.

The only sound stage that comes close, is one in which Nanoha, Fate, and Hayate are talking about Yuuno, noting that he and Nanoha have a "special relationship" that can't be put into words. Nanoha doesn't quite get what they mean, and Fate bemoans the fact and says she'll cheer for Yuuno. Nanoha still ends up clueless. The "special relationship" I take to mean that Nanoha and Yuuno are very close friends as well as being teacher/student. Even as someone who liked Yuunoha, that is not something to hang any definitive hat on. It was a Megami sound stage where they were answering fan questions. The "Takamachi Family" sound stage which refers more to Nanoha/Fate/Vivio was also a Megami sound stage, so you either take both as canon or both as not.

When you remove the Megami sound stages, and just focus on the more official ones, you find them to be more relationship-neutral, preferring not to say much of anything in that regard. You have to go to the manga to pick up the more outright talk of relationships and shipping.

It was the Christmas one that had Nanoha and Fate answering letters. Fate tried to hint towards why Yuuno was so worried about Nanoha, but Nanoha didn't get it. Fate says she'll cheer Yuuno on.

I will like either the whole NanoFate or even the Yunnoha to be official. This constant “maybe” that we get from the story only makes possible discussions over which option is better and Yuuno loses by numbers alone. I mean I get why they don’t say anything directly even when they hint it so much but still, it will be nice the canon sets this argument once and for all. I personally like NanoFate but I don’t mind the other way around if they do it right.

In any case back to Force who lacks Nanoha and Fate in important roles. What I mean with Thoma being a little odd when addressing dangerous criminals in such a friendly fashion is this: Tone. You see one thing is a cute little girl wanting to be friends and talk to people she can see good on thanks by their actions. Fate did show empathy to Nanoha when she first fights her saying she was sorry and the Wolkenritter could hurt them more and kill them in their fight but they didn’t. In both cases the antagonist shows some kindness that Nanoha uses as a proof they can resolve it in other ways. So she reach out for them. In the end the tone is also more friendly and there is some innocence to all of this, kids logic and a bright tone.

Force on the other hand shows our villains as murders right from the start. Veyron does kill 3 defenseless nuns that were not a treat to him while waiting for Thoma, Cypha laughs while saying she slaughter a small village with kids on it because she feel like to and we later see the entire family (Well the ones we knew at that moment) going to Vandin and kill every single human being they find there. I am sure most of those dead people had families, friends, maybe even kids they were trying to provide with their jobs when the happy trigger family started shooting on them. The tone is a darker, serious one when we face brutal killers and Thoma himself was looking for those who destroy his village. But the Hückebein just say “we didn’t do that” and he just buys his words without a second thought on the matter, apologies to Veyron for attacking him when he just find him after the murder of the 3 sisters and smiles at Cypha and tells her to take care in front of the woman Cypha almost kill because Signum tried to save him. Yeah… kind of odd.

Of course I get what Keroko says about Thoma and comparing him with Nanoha but, let’s be honest here, Fate and the Wolkenritter didn’t appear as violent murders with not sings of remorse to Nanoha. Here is kind of forcing the hand when I see the Hückebein act in such villainous ways and then I get “they are not criminals” well, they sure as hell could trick me. I think is strange we go for the same route as the other series when the antagonists are just so amoral. Thoma looks like an idiot. Just think this: he gets beat every single he fights, he needs to be save, he insist on his ideas when everyone is telling him to drop them (Sounds familiar?) and he is just going for the ride with no control over almost anything on his life.

This manga needs to make more with Thoma and maybe focus on that “good” side of the Hückebein if it really wants to go the whole befriend route with them.

And her second to just talk. And her third to talk with her weapons away.

My point is, Nanoha befriends people who are the bad guys all the time. To see everyone hammering on Thoma for doing the same is... weird.

I mean, heck, even around here we had the whole "Are the Hucks really bad guys or just victims?" argument for the longest time. To see nothing of the sort happening for the Hucks is... kind of a plothole. They don't have to fall on the ground and pity them, but a bit of understanding and less hypocrisy would be balancing.