You are COMPLETELY missing the point.
It's not about wanting to be handed things for the vast majority of people, it's about wanting to experience end game content when they don't have the ability to dedicate 2-3 nights every week to it.
People who haven't got multiple nights every week to spend playing WoW want end game content, therefore Blizzard have listened and given them end game content.
Luckily if YOU want to achieve something then you can completely ignore LFR and Flex and play normals and heroics, the same way you could go and buy Halo and just play the game on the hardest difficulty if you want "accomplishment".

See pretty much this is me... I want to see the end game but not put forth the effort I used to back in Vanilla. But I make sure my gear is the best it can be when I go in. That is my biggest issue with LFR. It should not allow you to que if you missing gems/enchants!

The problem with LFR is not that the players who choose to "raid" this way are necessarily bad players, but that because the mechanics of the encounters are so forgiving, players don't care about doing well in that mode.

So what? What do you care what other players find fun? The fact that I can still succeed in that mode in spite of them is a big plus, in my book.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by ChristopherHansen

Personally when I need to go into LFR I try my hardest to just get it done but when 10 idiots sit there auto attacking with their ungemmed gear I stop trying. I refuse to carry those kinds of players until they start trying or leave.

And then you're making your own fight take longer. As the cliche goes, it's like cutting off your nose to spite your face. The whole point of LFR is to allow you to progress your character in a timely manner without being held back by losers like that. When you quit trying because you "refuse to carry" those other players you are in effect becoming one of those players.

In my opinion this is a huge problem and generates most of the animosity toward casual players in this game. When a 553 frost mage is pulling just shy of 300K while a 496 frost mage is still at 120K that's a problem. I'm pretty sure that level 60 raiders didn't pull three times as much DPS as their non-raiding colleagues in Vanilla or TBC. I know I certainly didn't see that in WotLK. They really need to tone down the over-dependence on gear and make DPS rely more competent play.

Gear scaling is revolting right now, I agree. Going up 40 item levels nearly doubled my dps! Its nice feeling powerful, but this is just too much.

Though I will note that the 496 Timeless gear is pretty awful on itemisation and stat budget (its practically blue quality), so its still not entirely accurate to measure between that and normal SoO gear. Not sure what they were thinking with that, its ilevel padding at its worst.

But they were still fun weren't they that challenge added in some excitement. I think I did Cata Pre-Nerf dungeons 10X more than I have for MoP dungeons.

Oh yeah, I personally loved them to pieces. But I can see why others hated them.

Also there was a lack of alternatives. So there is that.

I hope they let us gear up via Challenge Modes in future - even if they just drop exactly the same gear with the same lockouts on drop chances. Even if its not effecient the choice would be apprieciated.

There are two kinds of special snowflakes, the ones who have successfully overcome obstacles and the butthurt failures who seek to make sure no one is more special than them. There are a number of the later in here who believe they speak on behalf of the majority. Just goes to show how far these players ego issues go.

People didn't quit from heroics. That's a myth 100%. Show me proof of it.

Personally I saw two guilds slowly die because long-time members grew tired of spending 3+ hours attempting to pug heroic dungeons every night for 346 ilevel blues. The process snowballed. Once the tank left, a healer quit. With those guys gone, the three DPS who used to run with them quit. I've heard many similar stories from others. None of my non-raiding friends even play WoW any more. The only players I know in the game now raid pretty regularly. I can't show you proof, but I've witnessed plenty of anecdotal evidence first hand.

Because it's fun!!! That's why you play a game. Why are you raging because some idiot in your group is looking at youtube instead of playing the game? The fact that you can persevere and come out with loot in spite of him is good. Why do you want to punish the 20 people who are trying because 5 people are just there to game the system? Sure I can (sometimes) AFK my way to loot. Is that fun? No! That's the incentive: the fun of doing your best in the game and overcoming obstacles, even if the obstacles are other players who are trying to troll the group. You guys are acting like raiding is a professional sport or something. No one is paying you to do well in raids; you're actually paying for access to them. You're just doing them for fun. If some people have fun AFKing to loot let them. The majority don't find that to be fun.

It's obviously up to oneself to determine what feels appealing but personally I can't find the fun in carrying easily 10+ shitheads I don't know and never see again.
Not that it matters as I did join the afk masses anyways.
But I basically agree with the sentiment that it isn't really that people are as incredibly bad as they look per se or have gotten very significantly worse - most just don't care as long as they can afk/play total shit and still get items.

If you whisper bads who are failing they typically snap at you no matter how polite you are and start up a fight in raid chat.

That's not my experience. When I say something like, "Next time you do this fight you might want to do X and Y because it will buff your DPS/Heals," they respond with, "Thank you. I didn't know that!" Of course, if you tell them they're "failing" or "doing it wrong" they'll probably take offense.

LFR isn't a bad design. I think it's great where if your group is against a brick wall you get a boost every attempt...but there needs to be checks and balances. Have you done all prior tiers of LFR(1 tier behind current), do you have gems (minus legendary chain ones), are you enchanted? If the answer is yes que away...if the answer is no then go do your time.

Just today I had to trolling the living mess out of a tank to get him to bail because the boss was nearly 3 shotting him to death and he was a dk.

This doesn't help anything. It just makes the community more toxic and creates an unpleasant environment for everyone.

Originally Posted by pimpeddakota

If I could sit down with this player yes I could teach him the many things he is doing wrong BUT LFR isn't that type of forum.

It was never meant to be that type of forum and you don't need to teach him the many things. Usually just working on a couple of the most egregious offenses is enough to ensure success.

Originally Posted by pimpeddakota

That is what 5 mans are made for BUT because the masses wanted 5 mans to be a joke now players don't learn their class there.

That's not why they did away with 5-mans. The reason 5-mans are gone is that they take time to make and Blizzard wanted to spend the time they would have spent doing that to make raids instead. That's why you have LFR. Trust me, if casuals could pick between 5-mans and LFR I think most of them would go with 5-mans. Even most raiders I know would agree with that.

didnt fully read up all pages
but i do think there should be 'some' standards in lfr that wouldnt be considered elitest
i know its pretty lax in terms of dps req for lfr, but at least you should be able to know the basics of your class, that is what leveling is for

i see ungemmed/unenchanted tanks in lfr ~500k hp, then asking wtf do i do here then complain to the healers when they die when they didnt move out from stuff (like ashen wall pre nerf) i do believe tanks have the more important job in lfr and need to read up on mechanics
dk tanks using necrotic strike, icy touch/plague strike while forgoing death strike (maybe hitting ~5 in an entire boss fight)
dps pulling ~40k dps with 5 stacks of det
or even healers pullling <20k hps with multiple stacks and they generally have 100% mana the entire fight

i wouldnt call those examples elitest, these are jsut some of the stuff ive seen
not reading the boss fight also is common thing in lfr
like most boss fights you can cheese it, but fights like nazgrim pre nerf, 1 time had about 10 ppl still attacking him in def stance even though most of us was shouting to stop but they dont listen :S very frustrating

This doesn't help anything. It just makes the community more toxic and creates an unpleasant environment for everyone.

It was never meant to be that type of forum and you don't need to teach him the many things. Usually just working on a couple of the most egregious offenses is enough to ensure success.

That's not why they did away with 5-mans. The reason 5-mans are gone is that they take time to make and Blizzard wanted to spend the time they would have spent doing that to make raids instead. That's why you have LFR. Trust me, if casuals could pick between 5-mans and LFR I think most of them would go with 5-mans. Even most raiders I know would agree with that.

Well if that is the case, then blizzard can put the LFR tier gear on valor vendors for 2K a pop and allow the bosses in LFR to drop them as well. Since you think only reason casuals are doing LFR is loot by your last comment.

For your first comment, there are some people that just need to be clearly removed from the raid. You can't deny that at times people are just that bad and if they have a primary role Tank/Healer you have to get them out or else you won't go anywhere

It's obviously up to oneself to determine what feels appealing but personally I can't find the fun in carrying easily 10+ shitheads I don't know and never see again.

Then don't run LFR. Problem solved. You see it as carrying them, but it's not like they begged you to join in the raid to rage at them. I'm sure they'd be perfectly happy running it without you.

Originally Posted by cFortyfive

Not that it matters as I did join the afk masses anyways.

And therefore you have no room to talk. You are 3x the shithead for having the ability to help but refusing to do it out of spite.

Originally Posted by cFortyfive

But I basically agree with the sentiment that it isn't really that people are as incredibly bad as they look per se or have gotten very significantly worse - most just don't care as long as they can afk/play total shit and still get items.

Sorry, but you typically can't AFK to infinite loot in LFR. In my experience AFKers are far less common than what these forums make out. The few times I have seen someone AFK they were kicked pretty quickly. I can't imagine that loot would come very quickly when you queue for forty five minutes, get one item from a boss before getting kicked, queue for forty five minutes, get no items off that same boss before being kicked yet again. If you seriously want to spend 5 hours AFKing to loot that you could have gotten in 45 minutes by just playing your character I'd almost have to say you earned that loot. Who the hell wants to babysit their queue for 5 hours straight?

didnt fully read up all pages
but i do think there should be 'some' standards in lfr that wouldnt be considered elitest
i know its pretty lax in terms of dps req for lfr, but at least you should be able to know the basics of your class, that is what leveling is for

i see ungemmed/unenchanted tanks in lfr ~500k hp, then asking wtf do i do here then complain to the healers when they die when they didnt move out from stuff (like ashen wall pre nerf) i do believe tanks have the more important job in lfr and need to read up on mechanics
dk tanks using necrotic strike, icy touch/plague strike while forgoing death strike (maybe hitting ~5 in an entire boss fight)
dps pulling ~40k dps with 5 stacks of det
or even healers pullling <20k hps with multiple stacks and they generally have 100% mana the entire fight

i wouldnt call those examples elitest, these are jsut some of the stuff ive seen
not reading the boss fight also is common thing in lfr
like most boss fights you can cheese it, but fights like nazgrim pre nerf, 1 time had about 10 ppl still attacking him in def stance even though most of us was shouting to stop but they dont listen :S very frustrating

Which is why I can't wait for blizzard to address their vote kick system. Only option they have other than putting other checks in gems/enchants.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Ronduwil

Sorry, but you typically can't AFK to infinite loot in LFR. In my experience AFKers are far less common than what these forums make out. The few times I have seen someone AFK they were kicked pretty quickly. I can't imagine that loot would come very quickly when you queue for forty five minutes, get one item from a boss before getting kicked, queue for forty five minutes, get no items off that same boss before being kicked yet again. If you seriously want to spend 5 hours AFKing to loot that you could have gotten in 45 minutes by just playing your character I'd almost have to say you earned that loot. Who the hell wants to babysit their queue for 5 hours straight?

Bots do the queing pretty well... so they aint sitting there... My friend had a rather decent one that could out dps a lot of the toxic players that are in LFR

Well if that is the case, then blizzard can put the LFR tier gear on valor vendors for 2K a pop and allow the bosses in LFR to drop them as well. Since you think only reason casuals are doing LFR is loot by your last comment.

Where did I mention loot in my last comment? I was referring to end game progression, and loot is certainly a part of that, but Timeless Isle and Pet Battles just aren't enough to hold someone's interest for more than a couple of weeks. What else is left to do for a casual player? LFR is it right now.

Originally Posted by pimpeddakota

For your first comment, there are some people that just need to be clearly removed from the raid. You can't deny that at times people are just that bad and if they have a primary role Tank/Healer you have to get them out or else you won't go anywhere

That's what VTK is for and if you can manage to keep the group out of combat long enough it usually happens when it's warranted, especially if it involves a tank who is repeatedly wiping the group.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by pimpeddakota

Bots do the queing pretty well... so they aint sitting there... My friend had a rather decent one that could out dps a lot of the toxic players that are in LFR

Bots are against the ToS, and they are not a new issue. Someday your friend may get caught and banned. If he's willing to risk that over a couple of 522 ilevel pieces of gear then more power to him.

That's what VTK is for and if you can manage to keep the group out of combat long enough it usually happens when it's warranted, especially if it involves a tank who is repeatedly wiping the group.

Bots are against the ToS, and they are not a new issue. Someday your friend may get caught and banned. If he's willing to risk that over a couple of 522 ilevel pieces of gear then more power to him.

VTK gets legit players up to 2 hour times very quickly with how many toxic players are there. I've had to stop voting but push for a player to get removed just to bring down MY ability to get rid of bad players. I could careless if they are bad one tier below but on current level content you just can't do that and expect others to carry you.

Yes bots are against the ToS. We all know this and you are right sooner or later he is going to get caught. No idea why he pays for a game he isn't playing but the point I was making is these things out dps real life people AND generally avoid most avoidable damage.