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Re: Keeping David West

The ESPN 500 has DWest as the 16th, 17th or 18th best PF. Depending on where you put Chris Bosh, Pau Gasol or Nene. DWest is behind Love, Nowitzki, Griffin, Gasol, Bosh, Aldridge, Garnett, Horford, Josh Smith, Randolph, Ibaka, Stoudemire, Jefferson, Monroe, Ryan Anderson, Nene and Milsap. I'd have him slightly higher, but middle of the pack of the starting PF's in the league seems about right. Putting him at the bottom of the league seems more about hating on a player than an actual analysis of his playing ability.

Re: Keeping David West

You said he was 23nd that is a lie, NBA has him at 33 between forwards and power forwards and as I pointed out by his numbers alone he is on the bottom of power forwards.

Actually he IS 23rd, in points scored. There's no need to lie, the facts state the opposite of what you're saying well enough. You're using averages, I'm going by the points he actually scored.

Also your 33 out of 50 is silly anyway. There aren't 50 forwards in the NBA. That's 33 out of 50 on PAGE 1 OF 4. There are 3 more pages of players.

Either way, if you want to go by average, go back through your link and count out how many SF's are on that list ahead of West. I counted at least 13. That's certainly nowhere near 'the bottom'. Especially when there are actually 195 players on that list, not 50.

Re: Keeping David West

So screw the average and let's go for points scored? not wonder why you think he is so great

It's also looks like West scored more points than Bosh, Howard and Rose on the playoffs last year so West > Howard,Rose and Bosh

...... you're so ridiculous. You're the one who starts with the rankings list comparison and then it's ridiculous. You're the absolute king of making an argument, and when it's thrown back in your face in a similar manner you just giggle like the other person is stupid for using YOUR argument.

If there were NBA2K13 style ratings for a Message Board game, you'd get a 0 for the common sense rating.

I bet Andrew Bynum is the greatest center evar! He has great averages. Who cares he only shows up half the time. "LOL", indeed.

Re: Keeping David West

...... you're so ridiculous. You're the one who starts with the rankings list comparison and then it's ridiculous. You're the absolute king of making an argument, and when it's thrown back in your face in a similar manner you just giggle like the other person is stupid for using YOUR argument.

If there were NBA2K13 style ratings for a Message Board game, you'd get a 0 for the common sense rating.

I bet Andrew Bynum is the greatest center evar! He has great averages. Who cares he only shows up half the time. "LOL", indeed.

Bynum is not the best ever but he is pretty damn good, I don't know what are you laughing about? his average is good, yes he has health issues but he is still great and also there is not a reason for you to call me names

Re: Keeping David West

So after watching the back and forth, how about a declining contract with player/team options for 3 years? If 25 mil over 4 years with the first 2 years being the biggest hit to the cap, then if Hans, Ian or Plumlee step up to be the starter, we still have the leadership of West coming off the bench and in the locker room?

Re: Keeping David West

And that wasn't my logic, somebody else has that logic, West scored more points than Zbo so West >>>>>>>> Zbo.

Yeah I don't agree with it. Randolph was injured and recoverying, so there is a reason why he averaged 13 ppg after a career year. Same with West.

He was coming back from an injury and I do not expect him to have the same start as he did last year. He will not be better offesnsivley than Aldridge, Dirk, Blake, Amare, KLove, JR Smith, Pau, Milsap, Bosh, Duncan, or Nene.

But I think he will be what we need for the price we can allot to that possession And I don't think any of those teams would ever trade for him, without us giving something else up.

And we can't overlook the leadership. Cause really a Nene skill set with a David West persona minus the doucheness is Kevin Garnett.*

*I realize this comment is an analogy and it may not line up perfectly with everything it is comparing. Please do not try and waste 3 posts in getting this clarified.(*)

(*) this disclaimer is not projected at anyone poster in general just a formality that we need to make (**)

(**) this disclaimer of a disclaimer of a disclaimer is starting to look like a stoned cartoon character.

Re: Keeping David West

What are you even talking about with the JOB thing? What does JOB or Murphy have anything to do with David West?

David West is not "at the bottom" in scoring at PF by any measure. He's 23rd in points scored by "forwards". That's SF, and PF on NBA.com. He's 25th in minutes on that same list. He's still well respected as a scorer. Teams know he can go off on any night if given the chance. Nobody feels that way about Tyler, just because he scored 9 PPG. They'll leave him to help elsewhere before they will West. West's minutes and touches were down, not his efficiency. His usage rating was the lowest it had been since his 2nd year in the NBA. If he gets the minutes and touches he can still score 15-18 PPG. I doubt anyone else questions that, but you.

And a good portion of his scoring is out of true low post moves. He's a better low post scorer than Roy at this point and draws doubles or defensive specialists (like Battier in the playoffs) to try to solve him. His game doesn't rely specifically on quickness, and in no way does it involve hops, so he's not about to be "too old" for his game.

As long as he keeps the shooting touch on the fade and has strength he should be pretty reliable to give guys fits in the post while stepping away if they overplay. I don't see any reason to expect a non-injury drop in the next 3 years.

Maybe a more accurate list of the West type of PFs in order of PPG last year. 6 RPG required, 1.0 or less 3PA per game required, 6'9" to 6'11" and listed as F or F-C only. Cousins is about the only center that ended up on the list. You lose Ryan Anderson and Kevin Love who do a lot of their scoring at the 3pt line. Anderson in particular has no inside scoring offense, nothing back to the basket like West.

This puts him about 14-15 in the NBA, and since many of these guys would require Hibbert or better money I'd say that he's about right for your 3rd highest paid guy.

Re: Keeping David West

And a good portion of his scoring is out of true low post moves. He's a better low post scorer than Roy at this point and draws doubles or defensive specialists (like Battier in the playoffs) to try to solve him. His game doesn't rely specifically on quickness, and in no way does it involve hops, so he's not about to be "too old" for his game.

As long as he keeps the shooting touch on the fade and has strength he should be pretty reliable to give guys fits in the post while stepping away if they overplay. I don't see any reason to expect a non-injury drop in the next 3 years.

In all honesty, if the Pacers are down by 1 or 2 points and in there last possession of the game, I would want the ball to go through West in the post. Why? He is a very capable scorer, he is very unselfish and he makes good decisions about when to shoot and when to dish off. I think Hill is similar, although perhaps not as good in the categories mentioned.

But, if you consider Hibbert, Granger and George, I believe all three are more selfish than the other two and not nearly as conscious about where we are in the shot clock when they are holding the ball.

Slam West all you want, but regardless of how many points, he is probably our best "team" player. He knows as well as any player on the floor what he should do and should not do with the ball nearly every time he touches it.

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Re: Keeping David West

There is a reason it only took a couple of games last season for Hill and West to become my two favorites on the roster. I actually thought Hibbert would hold that title, but he dropped to #3.

Its not like Vogel took the same roster, after the Chicago meltdown where both the team and coach looked a long way from becoming playoff tested, to a team that looked like a legit playoff team capable of a deep run. Adding West and Hill was huge, and subtracting West after this season would be about as stupid as...

Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
And life itself, rushing over me
Life itself, the wind in black elms,
Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

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Re: Keeping David West

DWest is a much bigger part of this team than a 4-man who can play the 5. He's a great passer, solid rebounder, the most mature on the team and has a gameface that scares guards driving to the basket. His fire for the game is unmatched, and he's been training this offseason instead of rehabbing his knee. I expect him to have a huge year, and if the Pacers don't resign him the loss of his intangibles would be worse than his physical presence. He's a competitor, and if we don't win it all this year I think he'll want to stay and bring one home before he leaves for a lesser team with more money, just my 2 cents though

Re: Keeping David West

Maybe a more accurate list of the West type of PFs in order of PPG last year. 6 RPG required, 1.0 or less 3PA per game required, 6'9" to 6'11" and listed as F or F-C only. Cousins is about the only center that ended up on the list. You lose Ryan Anderson and Kevin Love who do a lot of their scoring at the 3pt line. Anderson in particular has no inside scoring offense, nothing back to the basket like West.

This puts him about 14-15 in the NBA, and since many of these guys would require Hibbert or better money I'd say that he's about right for your 3rd highest paid guy.

Love, Josh Smith,Ryan Anderson,Gasol, Dirk, Millsap, Andrea Bargnani,Amare, Zbo and Nene need to be on that list you posted, just because some of them shoot 3's and don't meet the requirements that you are talking about is not reason to punish them, at the end of the day they still play the position, what are you going to post next? players that go left more per game making West a top 5 left handed scorer?

Re: Keeping David West

Figured it was important for everyone to know that we can't extend West

Extend as in add years to his current contract before it expires at the end of the season? No we can't.

Re-signing him on the other hand, is a different matter. We don't have full Bird rights, but we can sign him to a non-Bird contract, I.e. 120% of his old contract. That should be more than enough to keep him if we're so inclined.

Re: Keeping David West

So screw the average and let's go for points scored? not wonder why you think he is so great

It's also looks like West scored more points than Bosh, Howard and Rose on the playoffs last year so West > Howard,Rose and Bosh

You do realize that players tend to take about a year to fully come back from the type of injury West had right? He should be much better this season, he has been a consistent 19-21 ppg player for years, he won't score that much on a balanced team like ours, but he's alot better than you give him credit for.

Re: Keeping David West

Do you ever wonder if the Pacers do actually see Paul George as more of a 3 instead of a 2 if maybe they just move Danny to the 4?

In today's NBA Danny at the 4 would be more than capable vs. most teams.

If so the team may be ok letting West walk if the money is not right & either signing another guard or re-signing D.J. Augistine to play along side Hill.

Danny matches up very well vs. a lot of 4's anyway and as he gets older he may progress to that position.

Peck asking for the dreaded stretch 4?!?

Lol JK

I agree that DG would be a much better player at the 4 as opposed to the 3--at this point in his career. It'd definitely open the floor more, and we wouldn't lose much on the defensive end. With PG being an above average rebounder, I don't think we would be killed on the boards either.

IMHO, even if we DID re-sign West, I'd rather move Danny to the 4 and West to the bench. As West gets older, he'd be a great scoring option to bring off the bench.

For me, the true question would be, what would we do with our other positions? DO we re-sign Augustine and move GH to the 2? Do we push Gerald Green to the starting lineup and leave GH at the 1? Do we use the money we would have used on West, to sign another wing player?