I use VFG just for better control of the weapon. I usually just hold it at the mag well, but felt it could be yanked or knocked out of your hands much easier. If you are using it for HD I would suggest a VFG, but again it's always what you are more comfortable with. Try both.

Originally Posted By undercoverwookie:I use VFG just for better control of the weapon. I usually just hold it at the mag well, but felt it could be yanked or knocked out of your hands much easier. If you are using it for HD I would suggest a VFG, but again it's always what you are more comfortable with. Try both.

VFG > AFG for a tactical environment.

-With PEQs and weapon lights, you can't use a AFG.
-VFG is better for weapon retention (especially in cases of CQB and room clearing)

Originally Posted By undercoverwookie:I use VFG just for better control of the weapon. I usually just hold it at the mag well, but felt it could be yanked or knocked out of your hands much easier. If you are using it for HD I would suggest a VFG, but again it's always what you are more comfortable with. Try both.

VFG > AFG for a tactical environment.

-With PEQs and weapon lights, you can't use a AFG.
-VFG is better for weapon retention (especially in cases of CQB and room clearing)

Myeh.

I'm not much of an AFG fan, but to say that you can't use one with a light and a PEQ is false. It may not work with your grip and preferred activation, but there are plenty of examples of folks happily using the AFG (sometimes "incorrectly") with PEQs and lights.

Originally Posted By undercoverwookie:I use VFG just for better control of the weapon. I usually just hold it at the mag well, but felt it could be yanked or knocked out of your hands much easier. If you are using it for HD I would suggest a VFG, but again it's always what you are more comfortable with. Try both.

VFG > AFG for a tactical environment.

-With PEQs and weapon lights, you can't use a AFG.
-VFG is better for weapon retention (especially in cases of CQB and room clearing)

Myeh.

I'm not much of an AFG fan, but to say that you can't use one with a light and a PEQ is false. It may not work with your grip and preferred activation, but there are plenty of examples of folks happily using the AFG (sometimes "incorrectly") with PEQs and lights.

~Augee

Can you mount a AFG onto a rail of an M4 while having both a PEQ and light? Yes. But I cannot see it being used correctly in this case.
Can it be effective? No.

Can you mount a AFG onto a rail of an M4 while having both a PEQ and light? Yes. But I cannot see it being used correctly in this case.
Can it be effective? No.

I'm not getting your insistance that it doesn't work despite the number of end-users who have very clearly demonstrated that it can.

I don't even use the damn things, nor did I recommend their use, but it doesn't change the fact that it can, in fact, work.

If we were to limit the use of gear to their "correct" purpose, we'd be in a sorry place indeed. However, now that you've shown me the light, I guess I'll stop using my poncho liner as a blanket, and only ever use it to line my poncho.

If it's stupid and it works, it's not stupid. Some people like them. Some people use them incorrectly - but still like them. Not everyone shoots the same way.

I have used an AFG on a 12" rail and it was OK, but I prefer a VFG. I only use around an inch of it anyway since my ring finger is jammed in to the junction of the VFG and rail, with my index and middle on the rail.

Let us disappoint the Men who are raising themselves upon the ruin of this Country. ~John Adams

Can you mount a AFG onto a rail of an M4 while having both a PEQ and light? Yes. But I cannot see it being used correctly in this case.
Can it be effective? No.

You can use an AFG just fine with lights and lasers. Effectiveness is a function of the end user.

I'd like to see you show me a optimal arrangement of an AFG, PEQ, and Surefire weapon light (not the X300) on an M4 with standard rails (KAC). You will literally have only 1 free unoccupied rail.

Can it work rails longer than the standard KAC rails? Perhaps. But when your BDE policy on modifications to weapons is basically only accessories that you can attach to the supplied rails, that AFG simply won't work.

AFG myself... I had a VFG and i held my pinky fully on the VFG, my ring and middle straddled where it meets the rail, and my pointer on the rail... so when i tried the AFG it did exactly that but a little more comfortable.

Its like a medium between the VFG and a plain hand guard. So I recommend for you to see what works best for you and your shooting scenario. Or.... BUY BOTH!

Can you mount a AFG onto a rail of an M4 while having both a PEQ and light? Yes. But I cannot see it being used correctly in this case.
Can it be effective? No.

You can use an AFG just fine with lights and lasers. Effectiveness is a function of the end user.

I'd like to see you show me a optimal arrangement of an AFG, PEQ, and Surefire weapon light (not the X300) on an M4 with standard rails (KAC). You will literally have only 1 free unoccupied rail.

Can it work rails longer than the standard KAC rails? Perhaps. But when your BDE policy on modifications to weapons is basically only accessories that you can attach to the supplied rails, that AFG simply won't work.

I didn't see you mention a KAC rail, specifically, M4s aren't limited to KAC rails either as they are not limited to just Military forces. Even if we are talking about US Military issue M4s, there is still a possibility of RIS II rails.

Can you mount a AFG onto a rail of an M4 while having both a PEQ and light? Yes. But I cannot see it being used correctly in this case.
Can it be effective? No.

You can use an AFG just fine with lights and lasers. Effectiveness is a function of the end user.

I'd like to see you show me a optimal arrangement of an AFG, PEQ, and Surefire weapon light (not the X300) on an M4 with standard rails (KAC). You will literally have only 1 free unoccupied rail.

Can it work rails longer than the standard KAC rails? Perhaps. But when your BDE policy on modifications to weapons is basically only accessories that you can attach to the supplied rails, that AFG simply won't work.

For a righty:

Surefire M951XM00 mounted on the 3 o'clock rail

AN/PEQ-15 or AN/PEQ-2A on the 12 o'clock rail

AFG on the 6 o'clock rail

Surefire SR-07-D-IT mounted to the 9 o'clock rail

Activation is achieved with the support hand thumb. Reverse for lefty.

ETA: You caught me with time on my hands and a fully charged camera:

I substituted the Insight RMT-000-A8 for the Surefire SR07-D-IT since I don't have one, but they work the same way other than the fact that the Surefire remote has the plug for the XM00 tailcap.

The AFG2 is even shorter, but I grabbed the AFG 1 first when I went into the man cave and ran with it.

Jeeze I never thought I'd see the day when I was defending the AFG...

Just because it doesn't work for you doesn't mean it doesn't work for someone else. "Optimal" is about as subjective as they get. In your infinite wisdom - pray tell, what is your M4 set up like?

I run an afg on my rifle, my x300 has a rail mount activation switch at 9:00. With an average length wire, (7") you can virtually put your light where you want it. Oh, and you can get dual activation switches for your peq and light to run on too.

Originally Posted By Truth2882:So after the trip to the range today,I shoot better with no afg or vfg. Im running a 14.5 pinned carbine with plain m4 handguards right now until my DD Omega rails come in tomorrow.

Well the question was pertaining to a home defense rifle, not range shooting, right? I wouldn't use a vfg on a range either, but a range is no house.

Originally Posted By Truth2882:So after the trip to the range today,I shoot better with no afg or vfg. Im running a 14.5 pinned carbine with plain m4 handguards right now until my DD Omega rails come in tomorrow.

If it is only a 7" rail, then the AFG will suck (for most people). It was originally designed for the shooting style where your arm is more extend than what you can do with a 7" handguard.

When I had an AFG on one of my rifles the back of it was even with where the VFG is here:

Let us disappoint the Men who are raising themselves upon the ruin of this Country. ~John Adams

I have run both AFG's and VFG's and after going to AFG's for a while, then back and forth between the two quite a bit, I find myself back with all VFG's again. Strangely I find that AFG's are more comfortable to some degree, but I never really felt that they offered the same level of control, especially when placing pressure rearward as I pull the stock in tight to my body. I run quite a bit on my rail sometimes, and while I have successfully used both in this roll, the VFG just feels better to me.

My setup. Chopped down MOE VFG with rail panels;

I added some grip to my VFG and rail panels. Works well with callouses or gloves

This is my primary grip, I ride the DBAL housing with my thumb. Looks uncomfortable in pictures, but feels rock solid.

Here is a secondary grip I use for certain types of shooting and/or positions

I only utilize the constant switch on my pressure pad for the RAID, press for ON, press again for OFF

My normal grip is very close to the FIRE button on the DBAL, a slight adjustment and I am on top of the button for the laser

And finally, should my tape switch fail I can throw the RAID into flashlight mode and utilize the FIRE button on its side to keep the light up and running

Can you mount a AFG onto a rail of an M4 while having both a PEQ and light? Yes. But I cannot see it being used correctly in this case.
Can it be effective? No.

You can use an AFG just fine with lights and lasers. Effectiveness is a function of the end user.

I'd like to see you show me a optimal arrangement of an AFG, PEQ, and Surefire weapon light (not the X300) on an M4 with standard rails (KAC). You will literally have only 1 free unoccupied rail.

Can it work rails longer than the standard KAC rails? Perhaps. But when your BDE policy on modifications to weapons is basically only accessories that you can attach to the supplied rails, that AFG simply won't work.

For a righty:

Surefire M951XM00 mounted on the 3 o'clock rail

AN/PEQ-15 or AN/PEQ-2A on the 12 o'clock rail

AFG on the 6 o'clock rail

Surefire SR-07-D-IT mounted to the 9 o'clock rail

Activation is achieved with the support hand thumb. Reverse for lefty.

ETA: You caught me with time on my hands and a fully charged camera:

I substituted the Insight RMT-000-A8 for the Surefire SR07-D-IT since I don't have one, but they work the same way other than the fact that the Surefire remote has the plug for the XM00 tailcap.

The AFG2 is even shorter, but I grabbed the AFG 1 first when I went into the man cave and ran with it.

Jeeze I never thought I'd see the day when I was defending the AFG...

Just because it doesn't work for you doesn't mean it doesn't work for someone else. "Optimal" is about as subjective as they get. In your infinite wisdom - pray tell, what is your M4 set up like?

~Augee

My setup is exactly the same as your except for a VFG in place of the AFG. This setup with an AFG has been discussed among my platoon (I'm an Infantry Platoon Leader) and the general consensus of the setup you took pictures of is "downright retarded". No one in their right mind would run this setup downrange.

You can utilize none of the benefits of the AFB if you have a PEQ on the top rail and you lose a whole lot in weapon retention without the VFG. All someone has to do is wait for you to come up to a corner on your right side and pull the weapon right away from you.

My setup is exactly the same as your except for a VFG in place of the AFG. This setup with an AFG has been discussed among my platoon (I'm an Infantry Platoon Leader) and the general consensus of the setup you took pictures of is "downright retarded". No one in their right mind would run this setup downrange.

You can utilize none of the benefits of the AFB if you have a PEQ on the top rail and you lose a whole lot in weapon retention without the VFG. All someone has to do is wait for you to come up to a corner on your right side and pull the weapon right away from you.

For starters, that's not "my setup," I don't use an AFG, and the only reason I use VFGs on the few rifles I have them on is as a leg rest. Typically, I've found myself preferring no VFG, or a VFG used as a handstop, it's a mock-up I put together for the benefit of visual aid.

The fact that your Infantry platoon thinks that it's "downright retarded" doesn't change the fact that many members of premier DA and CT organizations like and utilize the AFG in conjunction with weaponlights and IR aiming lasers and illuminators. You also presume much to assume that everyone else is limited by your brigade policies and rail configurations. For starters, I don't think the OP ever mentioned that he was military or was looking for a military application for the AFG.

I don't use the AFG and I don't recommend the AFG - I have them because I am not afraid to try out new things to see how they work, and I've got enough uppers that I can set one up as my "primary training rifle" while have other "test" or "proof of concept" uppers that I don't mind messing around with and trying out.

The point of a VFG or AFG is not weapon retention anyhow, are you not using a sling to help with weapon retention? Furthermore, potential uses of the AFG are not limited to use in the "firehose grip." There are those that use them as a somewhat beefier handstop, and prefer that method of shooting. Your inflexibility in being able to accept that other shooters might have different styles and preferences reflect poorly on your overall flexibility and ability to respond to non-standard situations and problems and develop creative and resourceful solutions by maximizing the ability to use the implements at your disposal - including re-imagining them in a different role from their "intended" or "designed" role. Not every tactical situation comes straight out of 7-8, or whatever they're calling it these days. Not everything was covered in IOB (again, BOLC III or whatever they're calling it these days).

If you don't prefer it, don't like it, and don't recommend it - no one minds your saying so. You have a credible opinion and point of view. Add in - no one in your platoon uses one or thinks its a good idea, either. You can even say "everyone in my platoon thinks its downright retarded." It's different than inisisting that it can't work for anyone, that you have a chip on your shoulder, and that your opinion is the only relevant one. It works for some folks, and they like it. I don't, but some do.

Your reasons and logic for not preferring it are sound. Your presumption that everyone shares your needs, style, priorities, and preferences is not.

If you ran across the guy with this weapon dirtside, would you proceed to accost him and tell him all about how you and your platoon think he's downright retarded if he thinks he can use this weapon downrange, because any ol' badguy behind a corner will take it from him?

Or would you accept that maybe it just fits his needs, his equipment, and his training style better than yours?

My setup is exactly the same as your except for a VFG in place of the AFG. This setup with an AFG has been discussed among my platoon (I'm an Infantry Platoon Leader) and the general consensus of the setup you took pictures of is "downright retarded". No one in their right mind would run this setup downrange.

You can utilize none of the benefits of the AFB if you have a PEQ on the top rail and you lose a whole lot in weapon retention without the VFG. All someone has to do is wait for you to come up to a corner on your right side and pull the weapon right away from you.

For starters, that's not "my setup," I don't use an AFG, and the only reason I use VFGs on the few rifles I have them on is as a leg rest. Typically, I've found myself preferring no VFG, or a VFG used as a handstop, it's a mock-up I put together for the benefit of visual aid.

The fact that your Infantry platoon thinks that it's "downright retarded" doesn't change the fact that many members of premier DA and CT organizations like and utilize the AFG in conjunction with weaponlights and IR aiming lasers and illuminators. You also presume much to assume that everyone else is limited by your brigade policies and rail configurations. For starters, I don't think the OP ever mentioned that he was military or was looking for a military application for the AFG.

I don't use the AFG and I don't recommend the AFG - I have them because I am not afraid to try out new things to see how they work, and I've got enough uppers that I can set one up as my "primary training rifle" while have other "test" or "proof of concept" uppers that I don't mind messing around with and trying out.

The point of a VFG or AFG is not weapon retention anyhow, are you not using a sling to help with weapon retention? Furthermore, potential uses of the AFG are not limited to use in the "firehose grip." There are those that use them as a somewhat beefier handstop, and prefer that method of shooting. Your inflexibility in being able to accept that other shooters might have different styles and preferences reflect poorly on your overall flexibility and ability to respond to non-standard situations and problems and develop creative and resourceful solutions by maximizing the ability to use the implements at your disposal - including re-imagining them in a different role from their "intended" or "designed" role. Not every tactical situation comes straight out of 7-8, or whatever they're calling it these days. Not everything was covered in IOB (again, BOLC III or whatever they're calling it these days).

If you don't prefer it, don't like it, and don't recommend it - no one minds your saying so. You have a credible opinion and point of view. Add in - no one in your platoon uses one or thinks its a good idea, either. You can even say "everyone in my platoon thinks its downright retarded." It's different than inisisting that it can't work for anyone, that you have a chip on your shoulder, and that your opinion is the only relevant one. It works for some folks, and they like it. I don't, but some do.

Your reasons and logic for not preferring it are sound. Your presumption that everyone shares your needs, style, priorities, and preferences is not.

If you ran across the guy with this weapon dirtside, would you proceed to accost him and tell him all about how you and your platoon think he's downright retarded if he thinks he can use this weapon downrange, because any ol' badguy behind a corner will take it from him?