I got this idea from some others who did a trip like this, they did not really adhere to 12 items. All that I have invited are experienced bpers from the circle I do some trips with here in CA. I've set the trip for Lassen VNP.They started by stating there was a 12 item limit and 5lbs. for base weight. It was more for seeing how little they could get by (suffer) with. What would you count/not count as part of the 12 items?

So far I have come up with this:One system can be counted as one item, ie. kitchen/stove, shelter, sleeping.FAK does not count, stressing safety.Fisherpersons fishing gear does not count. I hinted that team work would be ok. No tips given. Worn clothes would not count towards the 12.Camera gear not counted towards the 12.Is this too easy?Duane

Summer temps, prepared for whatever or get by, one night. Stuff sacks/ditty bags part of packed item, such as stuffed sleeping bag. Good point, I need to slip in a rain anorak. Repair kit/duct tape could be part of a mattress or FAK, knife with fishing gear or the FAK. Some things have to be a system, such as bringing a tent, do I count the stakes and poles towards the 12 items? I think So far:PackBivy/shelter ground clothsb linersbmattressCooking kit (stove, windscreen, pot, spoon, matches/fire starterWater filterwater bottle/bladderjacketanorak

If there was no threat of rain I could easily do without the headlamp and a stove here in the Northeast. They'd be replaced by a fire. But that's just for numbers sake, as a small LED is less than a 1/4 oz. I also have strayed away from the tarp poncho concept as my wife took a nasty fall when we were off trail on a nasty piece of terrain going along a creek in Vermont. The poncho obscures the ground at your feet and she stepped on a loose rock and took a header. We use rain jacket/pants, as they work well for wind and cold, as pillow stuffers, and a spare layer.We've done very sparse equipment hikes when I've hauled in my raft or float tube to fish wilderness ponds in the Adirondacks and Greens. Since we stick with our UL tent w/poles, I could dispense with my trekking poles, but my wife absolutely wouldn't. We've planned on doing at least one stoveless/fireless, cold food only trip this year- the morning coffee is going to be the killer for me. My list has to include a water filter.

So as for a fire it would matter where your at, above 10,000 feet they don't allow fires here and this year being as dry as it is there will be fire bans in most of the sierras. Location, location, location. Years ago we never used a stove but now that stoves weigh almost nothing, it's so nice to have a warm cup of tea in the morning and evening.

Back in mid-January of this year we had a long thread based on a similar theme, titled 11 items only, in the General Discussion Forum. It provoked a lot of response.

One thing that hampered the discussion was a lack of ground rules for what counted or did not count as 'an item', so you're on the right track in seeking to clarify this. My first post on that thread invoked the idea of the Ten Essentials, which, if taken literally would only allow you to choose (in your case) two more items not on the Ten Essentials list before you had reached your legal limit.

I raised the 11 item thread back in Jan. They were unable to abide by that from what I heard. Our group can be pretty light, not sure we all could be at say 8 lb. base weight, plus not sure all have a scale to check. If we all met at the TH before we started, I could use a scale. I like that concept better. Thank you for that idea. So far, looks like seven of us.Duane

Rick, I was checking snow conditions last weekend, and its looking up, plowing has already started, they've reached King Creek which is up a ways, but still a few miles from Helen Lake, so we are ok already for where we want to enter at, by Summit Lakes.Duane