I've never actually finished anything before... and given that I think I might (that's a big and questionable 'might') say screw all and try to attend art school in the next year/year and a half, I should probably start, and test myself in terms of my ability to take something to completion. I'm not sure if this wip will be my first shot, but I have a few questions about it, and I'd like to throw it out there.

Any comments are appreciated for the sake of my own interest and education, regardless of where I take this image...

First is overall color and composition. How do you feel about the population dispersion. Too few, too many, should they be more or less clumped? I'm not so concerned about actual individual drawing at this point, but rather their placement, and in your opinions, what sort of primacy should be placed in terms of creating a visual path.

Should I have more/ stronger highlights on the right, or do you think I should focus/ redirect what I have?

More or less hanging stuff and wires for an alternative upper visual path? I don't want to interfere with the statue too much.. and for that matter, is the statue ok (more or less saturation, value contrast for primacy?)

I can see the perspective problem that needs to be addressed on the right,, 2cnd floor ceiling, but are there any others?

The first floor on the left seems a little one dimensional as it proceeds to the vp, and I was thinking that could use some fixing.

I've only suggested the stroke directionality I'll be proceeding with at this point, but are there any obvious problems that way?

Does it need a star character? I was thinking the woman just to the left of the bridge could be emphasized and given some character...

I know I lost some of my value dispersion int he light shafts, but how's the overall value/ lighting scheme?

edit:
And one big question I forgot, how are the temperature relationships. That's probably one of my fuzziest areas in terms of knowledge. Does anyone see any problems there?

...etc etc etc

Last edited by FallDamage on Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:03 am; edited 4 times in total

Perspective is dodgy I think. The floor tiles are stretched confusingly and do not look foreshortened - not if they are supposed to be squares. Shops on either side of the street seem to point to different vanishing points.

In the same way you create a plane for the people's feet (the floor) try having a plane to refer to for head heights, because its getting confusing.

About the lighting situation. Overhead atrium appears to be dusty and quite dim (dimmer and lower contrast than the end doors). If we are looking up at the sky through framed glass panels, I would expect a strong feeling of light, catching edges and shapes and zinging around. It is too low contrast. Also, the long overhead atrium is not treated with the same directional light that lights the foreground right. The foreground right seems to be the only area affected be strong directional sunlight, which reduces the overall unity of the environment.

Just go in there and start painting into it more, to improve the perspective, and the light situation. Settle on what kind of lighting you want and then paint the walls and beams and floors accordingly. Actually paint over the things that need to change colour, rather than trying to use and save them by painting over with transparent brushes. Don't worry about painting over old detail - if you go back over them with gusto it will get stronger looking and you can build detail back in later to better effect. With a picture like this, you shouldn't allow mark-making to dominate the process. Keep it right out of your mind, and focus on the depicting the scene to you best.

I don't personally see the need for a character to look at. It works as a concept/environment design. Overall I think the scale issues are first priority.

All good points, and I think you've hit the nail on the head Fred in terms of me getting too precious with the details. Next chance I get Ill lay down some grids and look at scale first and foremost, as suggested with the unity issues in mind in terms of color/value saturation. I'll probably add more strong highlights moving into the distance.

I like your paint over max; I had a version like that myself a little while ago, but it looked a little 'burned' (though I understand it's quick suggested paintover, don't get me wrong), which from what I can gather, has been the cardinal sin of digital art since 99 . I still really love the look of your paint over though, and I think it address some of the unity issues Fred mentioned in terms of color and value. I'll probably try to find a solution somewhere in the middle.

Thanks to both of you, and to anyone else feel free to jump in. I probably won't update for like a week, given my schedule, but I appreciate any feed back.

The paintover that Max posted is a little overdone, as he said it him self, but as it looks a lot more interesting, aiming halfway there would be good idea, but I think you should enhance your picture other ways too.
I think it just lacks extreme foreground elements that would make the perspective work better.
Other thing that I want to point out is, that those bright roof windows look so plane. You should brake the values, by fe. casting some shadows from trees on to them, or some thing. That way as the viewers eye go trough the image and to those windows, it would have something to look at.

Overall the painting is looking very good, and you should whip your self to finish this one. It has so much potential.

The perspective on the shops is wrong somehow..especially the "curtained" doorway on the left
The bridge looks like two people bouncing on a bed..redesign the bridge to look more solid and functional
The overhead glass looks like overhead rivers..You need to harden the glass in the last two panels so it isn't so wavy/watery
The focus should not be overhead..on a bridge or even to the glass..
What really caught my attention here..and it is adds some originality and suspense ..The Two People on the Right..The woman who appears to have her hand bunched into a fist..the man almost facing her..
I realize from the man's demeanor and "not quite facing" the woman that you may not have intended that to be the dramatic focus of the picture but it is a very subtle scene that captures the attention..
It is intriguing to wonder what her mood, motive and intent may be..yet she is lost in the crowd
If you could use her as the dramatic focal point...the most delicately rendered area without losing her "anonimity in the crowd".. that would make this picture ..a real picture show
Just My Honest Opinion...I think however it turns out..it is good quality and worth finishing..

Last edited by Brake Check on Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:18 am; edited 2 times in total

Thanks for the comments Petri, I'm going to play with the idea of suggesting some foliage up top outside of the atrium, I think, as that will lend some credibility to compositional shadows as the light shafts extend down the hall. I was also thinking of adding some hanging foilage to the walls to break up the perspective lines moving into the distance, and that I would use some of that for the extreme foreground interest you mentioned.

Brake check... youre right on with those two characters, I didn't see it but now I very much would like to play it up to add some human interest. Nice find! And thanks for the link... I'll probably go with the loomis method and explore that when I've got more time. I haven't even made any changes yet, too much on the go!

But I'll definitely get into it sometime this week and incorporate all your crits into something more complete, which I'll post next weekend, I'd say. Thanks guys

Intrigue is overlooked in painting subjects..Most of the drama is large, with scales and big teeth..Or huge mechanical and oily
I notice in Craig Mullins work..always a question
The woman in the cathedral facing the crowd (who is she waiting for?) I find myself searching the crowd..then I think..Is she waiting for someone or for the next event..or what?
The three riders in the snow..What are they talking about? Where are they going?
The man in red perambulating down the street..Why is he so happy?
There should be questions..intrigue in pictures..shadows that lead into adventurous places... characters who aren't clear in motive, mood, intent..
That is the best art...
Da Vinci's woman with the ermine or mink or whatever animal that is..Who is she smiling at?
There are things within..and without a picture that intrigues the viewer and draws them in..
I tried Loomis straight and in the many tutorials on the web that give portions of his methods but I get lost and confused..
Storey is one step at a time and I can finally understand what perspective is all about..
I have had other nonartist who struggle with this say that Storey makes sense to them...
It is a matter of taste..Everything after Alberti is just presentation...If Loomis works for you..good..but if he doesn't ..try Storey
Good Luck with the painting ..

I agree completely Brake check, looks like you've put a lot of thought into this.

ok, so played around with the lighting and color a bit and added a few little matte elements (the bridge, the dragon and the thingys from which the plants hang) more as problem solving lube than any attempt to actually use them. They'll probably be painted over completely in the final.

Direct light comes in at its current angle and casts orange reflect across the street leading to some orange bounce. slightly teal sky light leading to some low sat dark blue/violet shadows in areas that may not be impacted by the direct sunlight bounce. Sound good? As the light proceeds into the distance, I decided to creep up the spectrum towards yellow green to retain a really vibrant look.

I'm gunna work up the plant angle more and get your thoughts on the lighting direction before I really hit up the detail. Perspective is still a work in progress as I continue to resolve the direct cast light into the distance. Man on the bridge by the statue is way to small, and there still some definite scale issues I'll handle as I go.

I haven't resolved the ppl yet either, I consider them a detail after lighting and perspective is finalized.

All Right!
Now it is starting to look focused
The shop on the Right..over the woman I mentioned earlier..That overhang is out of the perspective line..tilted out at an odd angle
The bridge is better..
The light is too harsh for now..but it works to correct the underpainting of the piece..
It is a good halfway..I think
If the basic corrections are made ..then the light, the drama, the focus can be added
I was going to say I liked the diffused light in the first..but after studying it for a while...I am liking this harder focus better...I think it is the greyish brown colors ...that is affecting the quality and mood of the light and atmosphere
In the final..bold construction...bright light..as it is now and more colorful (but not bright) clothes on the people..JMHO

Also..
Where am I?
Look At St Jerome by Da Vinci..I could walk forward and touch him..but I would have to step over the lion..
This is hard to explain so I will give the thought behind it:
In perspective..the renaissance men knew Medieval and Byzantinian art
In that art..the perspective was reversed...the viewer was the point of sight..and the viewer had a position..
The central figure was above and large
The adoring angles were lower hence smaller
The Viewer was either between heaven and earth or at the level of the figures but at a Triangulated Point in relationship to the figures..The viewer had a place to stand in the extended plane beyond the figures or the painted surface
The Viewer had a Point within the extended Picture Plane where that viewer was standing..so if the picture were extended to include his position..he would be on solid ground..
NOW..in your picture..I...am above the main level looking Down at the people below..yet I am looking UP at the man shaking his fist on that bridge above..So where am I?

This is hard to state correctly in words but it struck me as I was studying the picture..Where am I in the plane?

Obvious problems that stand out at me at the moment is the colours of the upper half of the image and the bridge on the ground level. There's too much warm, yellow tones on the upper half that colours start to get a little muddy. I'd suggest putting some elements of a cooler value to break up things a little. The bridge on the pathway is off-centre (intentional?) and the railings are distorted out of perspective; flip the image and you can probably see it right away.
Also, personally i'd move the ground bridge further away from the viewer, as it is getting a bit too crowded (no pun intended) in that space and prevent the eye from following into the distance.

btw, those are some really interesting thoughts, Brake Check. i probably learned something which i wasn't aware of before.

What I am thinking is..
If I took a step forward into the picture..where would I be?
It is an architectural problem..and maybe not relevant but where is the platform the viewer is standing on?
It has to be a continuation of the ground plane or explained in the architectural details..another bridge..or a balcony..but this "viewer isn't high enough for a believable ground plane ..too low for one...too high for another..
In Craig Mullin's painting of that women facing the crowd in that Cathedral type building, the architecture is such that there could be a high balcony..The viewer is high enough for that..and in the scene with the two merchants by Mullins that has been on the discussion thread..The viewer is sprawled out in a chair next to that globe..
The point of sight..could the viewer walk right in, sit right down..?
Just a Thought..

Hmm... good points Brake and Syn. It seems like the more I progress the bigger the changes become. I take your meaning, and it is a good thing to keep in mind for the future. But I'm not entirely certain how to account for it without a major edit, which I may or may not have the balls to implement...

Synnical, some cool bounce is definitely on the menu to mix things up a bit. I'll probably replace the bridge entirely. I bent em as a 'design element' but, yea, I concur that it's goofy looking after having been away from it for a bit.

Anyway, I'll see what I can do with these points. Thanks for your continued involvement btw, it's awesome to have quality feedback like this

Ok so I think it'll help me to write this out..., if we assume that the VP is north, we'll say the sun is coming in at 50- 55 degrees (putting us at what, 2-3 pm? ) hitting directly affected areas and creating warm bounce on the most east facing planes. Blue skylight will be cooly affecting most south facing planes. Planes facing down but arching down to the left will catch bounce from the direct lit side of the street, and the other side of the arch will be less warm, as it catches doubly reflected bounce from the shadow side of the street. The water will be a flecked warm-cool jumble as it catches some skylight and some reflected bounce, but primarily cool, and will cast cool bounce to the underside of the bridge. To assist the image, areas that would be affected by both warm and cool bounce will be designated warm to retain warm primacy in the painting.

The bridge straightened and slightly reduced in size. The stream will be centered.

The viewer could be descending a stair (unlikely placement for stairs) or standing on a ladder (hanging more plants? or a sign?). The angle doesn't strike me as odd or uncommon - and I agree the repaints are getting better and better. Glad to see/read your overview of the light/colour dynamic too, FallDamage, a subject I'm just beginning to consider...

I hear ya joemo. I think that the placement of the viewer is something I'll leave out of my thoughts for now while I address more pressing issues, I'll have time to work up some sort of solution to my mud problem tomorrow I expect.

And that overview I laid out may have been a bit ill-conceived. I've been doing some reading, and I don't think I'll work up nearly as much blue as I had intended, given the lighting circumstance, I figure the shadows would be overwhelmingly warm bounce. Maybe some local desat green for the stream area, but besides that, I'll have to see what works...

Mmm it's been a hard week, and I didn't get as far with this as I would have liked. So I'm extending my own personal deadline by another week This has been educational at least, and I definitely need to start with a stronger foundation.

I've been trying to root out the mud since my first post, but I think that it was a fundamental problem that I should have set right from the initial speed paint, along with perspective and scale. As I look at it now, I've added and destroyed a good deal of window dressing, while slowly chipping away at the fundamental problems I should have been done with in the first hour of the sp a week ago, leading to a tremendously inefficient painting process in the interim period.

Anyways, I think it's improved somewhat from today's efforts Sun is coming in sort of towards us and at an angle, so that'll allow me to light a little more of the right hand side of the street. I've really got to systematically go over it front to back once more and work out the mud and perspective once and for all.

I know those two little characters I cheaply integrated into the scene on the left stand out like sore thumbs, I crammed em in the to remind myself how I'd like to paint the rest of the chars once I get to that stage.

Possibly it's become a bit busy/cluttered, it might need one or two more flat areas. Example, maybe remove the woman and child (bottom left), the open floor becoming a pause before the impact of the interesting bridge. There's something very 'right' about those two, maybe because their shape is echoed in the pair at the right end of the bridge (silhouettes). Maybe move them diagonally to the left a bit, so the woman's back is partly hidden by the figure beside her? Alternately (or additionally) remove the figure (head and shoulders) behind the child. My two cents on an image that's well beyond me.

Very Nice..
You are making changes without damaging the original charm of the piece..I like the new subtle touches of color on the clothes
Raising (finishing) the bridge solved most of the perspective problem with the viewer height..
I am not certain about the "clutter"..It is a busy place...and it should be colorful and cluttered... but what joeme said about the space around woman with the child ..I seem to see some problem there but I can't exactly say why..Too many heads in too small a space?..It may not be the woman with the child at all but the one closest...

Thanks guys. The situation definitely needs to be resolved with greater clarity, which I will do after figuring out the final color/perspective situation.

Currently, the luxury of time is running out and I'm thinking I need to put a whole lot more focus on my traditional skills. After I finish this, I may go into self imposed sijun exile for a while while I train up some drawing skills. There aren't many (that I can afford)) schools that seem to accept digital painting for entrance portfolios, so I've got to bring my drawing up to a level I'm comfortable going to the schools with. I've got confidence in myself, I just need to get more comfortable with the more generally accepted mediums.

I'll update next mid week if I can, but if anyone else has any suggestions, I'm all ears.

hey man
nice work! im really loving your progress.
one thing though; your first speedie seems to be much more appealing then the progress shots. and i feel that's because there's more room to breathe. in the progress, there seems to be too many things in the picture- giving you no room to breathe.
great work though!

Thanks annis, and yea, once I work things up a bit I'll reintroduce some strong light shafting which will , ideally, provide some areas of reduced contrast and serve as rest space, as well as an additional focusing agent.

Ok small overall color update. I did some detailing as well, but now it's time for the bulk of the detailing to occur. I'm fairly happy with the overall appearance of the thing, and now it's time to get in there and flesh it out. I can't have this thing dragging on forever.

Pictured below is the last update on the left, and the updated profile on the right.

Thanks, you're right too it will be a ton of noodling, and now that my pre-law course is on the go (count down to december 1st) this thing is officially going to drag on forever as my art time will be practically 0 for the next month.

this is a bit too fat .....maaaan show* some bigger, planes (f) ..because I don't see bases here ..just ones point perspective and many points,, like drops on the web sh* ..no planes ..sh* fucking English ..peace

3nasty ..Perspective Planes? (google search..nothing)
OK..is this what you mean? (my drawings are crude but I have been struggling with this "plane issue" for a few days..)
I did this study from a Perspective Book..
There are clearly "planes" The lighthouse being X feet above sea level, the sea wall being perpendicular or a bit slanted..the houses or mountains..if there were more ...would be following that green line for proper perspective..There are clear planes on this first image..

When I rendered this..I have one point perspective with everything strung out on the web? Or flattened onto one horizontal/vertical plane.. This crude illustration seems to be what you are saying..Yes or No?
I am going on with the perspective lessons..not correcting the flaws on the images but taking it as a lesson learned
Darn I said I wasn't going to mess with it..but I did..change below..yet..the same principles apply..and the same question..Is this what 3nasty meant by Planes?