_________________"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein

The win-win scenario is if not only the illegals are made to pay the 5 to 10K fines and be deported, and Americans getting those jobs and paying taxes. AND>>> Those who have encouraged them under section iv of Title8USC1324 pay the $5K fines for each illegal---even if only one million of the more than 10 million guilty pay---that is 150 Trillion dollars! That would get us out of debt, on to infrastructure repair, and toward a steady state economy, non-emissions power and a greener country. No tax write off for more than one child and a permit required with proof of at least 105 IQ for both the mother and father, would get us toward true sustainability, and stop the dumbing down of America. http://law.onecle.com/uscode/8/1324.html

_________________"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein

The win-win scenario is if not only the illegals are made to pay the 5 to 10K fines and be deported, and Americans getting those jobs and paying taxes. AND>>> Those who have encouraged them under section iv of Title8USC1324 pay the $5K fines for each illegal---even if only one million of the more than 10 million guilty pay---that is 150 Trillion dollars! That would get us out of debt, on to infrastructure repair, and toward a steady state economy, non-emissions power and a greener country. No tax write off for more than one child and a permit required with proof of at least 105 IQ for both the mother and father, would get us toward true sustainability, and stop the dumbing down of America. http://law.onecle.com/uscode/8/1324.html

Yeah but that is only if you are concerned about the idea of the so-called "nationhood" .... also known as nationalism or in some cases patriotrism.. So. what?Why would you concern youirself? Especially knowing ..... really knowing that nationhood is only an idea?Why get caught in all of that stuff?

The win-win scenario is if not only the illegals are made to pay the 5 to 10K fines and be deported, and Americans getting those jobs and paying taxes. AND>>> Those who have encouraged them under section iv of Title8USC1324 pay the $5K fines for each illegal---even if only one million of the more than 10 million guilty pay---that is 150 Trillion dollars! That would get us out of debt, on to infrastructure repair, and toward a steady state economy, non-emissions power and a greener country. No tax write off for more than one child and a permit required with proof of at least 105 IQ for both the mother and father, would get us toward true sustainability, and stop the dumbing down of America. http://law.onecle.com/uscode/8/1324.html

Yeah but that is only if you are concerned about the idea of the so-called "nationhood" .... also known as nationalism or in some cases patriotrism.. So. what?Why would you concern youirself? Especially knowing ..... really knowing that nationhood is only an idea?Why get caught in all of that stuff?

I would concern myself BECAUSE I am a patriot of the United States of America. Nationhood is a fact fought for by many millions of veterans, and believed in by the vast majority of Americans, not just an idea. We had our own culture and common language before LBJ and TK pushed through the 1965 Act which is part of the ruin going on besides the illegal invasion. The fact of enforced borders and nationhood has been extant for a long time, throughout the world. Invasion is an act of war, and changing borders only has occurred when one country conquered another, or one country agreed to join as one with another because of common bonds of language, politics, and history. I continue to fight for my country because we have been invaded and attacked, and I never rescinded my Military Oath, or gave up my citizenship.You are foolish to think you know, really know, that nationhood is only an idea and not a fact. I suggest you go to another country and try becoming a voter and property owner without being a citizen.

_________________"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein

Invasion is an act of war, and changing borders only has occurred when one country conquered another, or one country agreed to join as one with another because of common bonds of language, politics, and history.

But...but...we're all human. At least, that's the common bond you'll hear about from multiculturalists arguing under the guise of human rights and what not. The problem is that rights don't mean squat unless folks, such as yourself, are willing to lay life on the line to defend them. Mental and physical capability helps immensely. It's always interesting to see people around the world clamoring for rights, entitlements, or whatever, for which they are incapable of fighting. I'm not talking about select individuals, but rather civilizations and populations as a whole. Pockets of it exist in the US already within inner cities--broke cities like Memphis that just had it's own school board disband. Really?

The win-win scenario is if not only the illegals are made to pay the 5 to 10K fines and be deported, and Americans getting those jobs and paying taxes. AND>>> Those who have encouraged them under section iv of Title8USC1324 pay the $5K fines for each illegal---even if only one million of the more than 10 million guilty pay---that is 150 Trillion dollars! That would get us out of debt, on to infrastructure repair, and toward a steady state economy, non-emissions power and a greener country. No tax write off for more than one child and a permit required with proof of at least 105 IQ for both the mother and father, would get us toward true sustainability, and stop the dumbing down of America. http://law.onecle.com/uscode/8/1324.html

Yeah but that is only if you are concerned about the idea of the so-called "nationhood" .... also known as nationalism or in some cases patriotrism.. So. what?Why would you concern youirself? Especially knowing ..... really knowing that nationhood is only an idea?Why get caught in all of that stuff?

I would concern myself BECAUSE I am a patriot of the United States of America. Nationhood is a fact fought for by many millions of veterans, and believed in by the vast majority of Americans, not just an idea. We had our own culture and common language before LBJ and TK pushed through the 1965 Act which is part of the ruin going on besides the illegal invasion. The fact of enforced borders and nationhood has been extant for a long time, throughout the world. Invasion is an act of war, and changing borders only has occurred when one country conquered another, or one country agreed to join as one with another because of common bonds of language, politics, and history. I continue to fight for my country because we have been invaded and attacked, and I never rescinded my Military Oath, or gave up my citizenship.You are foolish to think you know, really know, that nationhood is only an idea and not a fact. I suggest you go to another country and try becoming a voter and property owner without being a citizen.

But you see, the United Stated of America is also an idea. Are you religious? Do you believe in a God above?

Nationhood, and religion, too, both start as ideas and progress toward organization and physical realities. This thread is about >>>getting Americans back to work.<<<Personally, I am an "Involved Deist" as per the Big Book of AA. I am not in any organized religion(all of which are hogwash to me). Now, back on subject.The above links provide proof that Americans will take the jobs vacated by deported illegals(20+ million!), or the jobs taken by new immigrants we don't need because we are already overpopulated(see "Elephants in the Volkswagen" or "How Many Americans" both by the esteemed Lindsey Grant of NPG). The link to the laws broken with fines owed is a win-win scenario the head-in-the-sand politicians or the guilty don't want enforced. I want them enforced because we need the jobs, we need the fine money(to pay off the National Debt and prevent hyper inflation/world economic depression), and we need to reduce population to long term sustainable(deporting the 30 million illegals, both working and not, is a good start), with the corresponding reduction in emissions, other pollution and depletion of various resources.

_________________"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein

I would concern myself BECAUSE I am a patriot of the United States of America. Nationhood is a fact fought for by many millions of veterans, and believed in by the vast majority of Americans, not just an idea. We had our own culture and common language before LBJ and TK pushed through the 1965 Act which is part of the ruin going on besides the illegal invasion. The fact of enforced borders and nationhood has been extant for a long time, throughout the world. Invasion is an act of war, and changing borders only has occurred when one country conquered another, or one country agreed to join as one with another because of common bonds of language, politics, and history. I continue to fight for my country because we have been invaded and attacked, and I never rescinded my Military Oath, or gave up my citizenship.You are foolish to think you know, really know, that nationhood is only an idea and not a fact. I suggest you go to another country and try becoming a voter and property owner without being a citizen.

[/quote]

The indigenous peoples also had their own language and culture before the Europeans settled here on Turtle Island (North America). The colonization of North America is happening again but now under different conditions. The burgeoning population of the entire planet is driving people to this part of the world, where there is realtive space to be, to live. There is no stopping it, especially under the current and inherited economic systems by which virtually all countries and peoples participate in. Come to think, this is what spurned the first colonization as well; new ground where people could claim a stake.

Nationhood is an idea, born out of the need to be secure. The need for security, to have enough to eat, a roof over one's head, and some prospect of creative livlihood, is a need that every human shares no matter their place of origin, religious beliefs, diet or specific cultural values. If we are thinking in terms of nationhood, we only create more division and conflict. It is the same as when we identify with certain religious groups, or tribes, or clans, or gangs.

We have evolved biologically and technologically, but has our consciousness evolved? Or, by indentifying oneself with the nation states of the world, with the tribe, are we still at the level of our predecessors who engaged in tribal warfare? i think we are still identifying ourselves as members of tribes ... (patriot?) and our entire economic systems reflect this .... so that we feel we need to protect our boundaries .... but there are none. They are not seen from space. We made them up and now feel that we must defend them. Those boundaries are real and your concerns are real at that level. The projected "reality" is mesmerizing and compelling and when one has their entire lives invested in a particular path or way of thinking, it is difficult to give that up because one's identity is based on that. Who would you be without your identity as a veteran or as an American? Are you really different from that child in Bangladesh who would also strive for security - for food and shelter and room to flourish at least in some small ways. Your fate is locked with that of the child's.

It is true that immigrants stream into America (and Canada), that vast area of Turtle Island known as the US, all seeking a means to survive, provide and be. I guess they have their reasons which are not much different from mine or your reasons even though we were born here.

I am a child of an immigrant. Maybe i should feel ashamed? Do I not belong here because I don't have the same historical roots that created a near genocide of the indigenous peoples during the first colonization?

And now more peoples come .... and we need to protect this place from them ....

They either come here and work or we outsource the work. How many jobs are being exported overseas? Are you concerened (because you haven't mentioned it). It's cheap for the companies to hire folks in Mexico or India while US citizens could have also done that outsourced work. If US citizens do the work it will cost the corporations more and as profit is always the bottom line, why would corporations hire US citizens at a higher cost when they can get the work done cheap in those impoverished countries where people NEED the work? This is what is happening .... again our economic model which pits one against the other, endlessly.

We cannot solve our ecological problems as individuals and as you are trying to do, without getting to the root. Your Earthship becomes a bunker which then becomes a prison. We are intimately related, regardless of the boundaries we have created with that tribal consciousness that has been our record and still seems to persist.

When I was born, I was automatically given citizenship. I didn't ask for it. It was hoisted upon me. So when i travel I can produce some identification which allows me to pass through "borders" without much trouble. But do I accept that particular identifcation? It is pragmatic within this system that we have inherited and continue to uphold but aside from that, it has not much reality for me.

Am I really this citizen of this so called country or am I an individual of homo sapien residing on this planet we call Earth? Earth being a small and beautiful planet within the universe as we know it. Hubble has come up with some amazing images. Have you seen them?

To identify myself with this passport is what we have agreed to do, en masse, and we are given no choice within this framework. The framework is not written in stone. Nothing is.

If you believe in something, it becomes an "idea" and you seem to have many ideas and beliefs. That you are an American citizen is one of them. Are you sure you are not religious? Is citizenship or patriotism not akin to religious belief? Afer all, there is belief .... in god or in nationhood. You either praise the icon on the altar or you identity with the name in your passport. You also gained citizenship when you were born on this small and wonderous planet which is located somewhere in this vast universe ... and you have become that identity and you now need to protect it.

Do you see it? Can you step outside the stream? Because folks are doing just that ..... stepping out of the stream.

It would be nice if the "Star Trek" fantasy of one world, then colonization of space with our numbers and control of our numbers by voluntary means on Earth. However, if I were to suddenly appear in many places of the world, I would be killed just for the way I look and talk.The problem with Homo Sapiens Sapiens, is that there is enough difference within the species, that, in a natural world, would cause speciation. Those who can and do live and understand sustainability are of a small minority of the highest intelligence, and morals, without greed. Then there is the over-breeding lower IQ majority, who are ruining the biosphere by their numbers, habits, and greed.In a natural world, they would die out and those living sustainably would live. The species would , as before, continue to get stronger and more intelligent. Those of higher intelligence invented things that they gave to those who could not make and invent them, in the mistaken belief that over-compassion and over-tolerance was good, when it was not good for the species(only for their own "feelings"). So now, the low IQ over-breeders migrate and take down all those who can live sustainably with them, from world pollution and depletion of resources.You mentioned outsourcing of jobs out of greed to make more money, and the fact that the overpopulated countries have lower pay, because of their overpopulation.Another member mentioned that for the world population to really become sustainable, we would have to sterilize all below 120 IQ.If countries could strongly enforce their borders and shores, some could "niche" themselves to be totally independent for all energy, manufacturing, and nutritional needs. Even survivalists at the village level would need to protect themselves and their property from gangs of desperate cannibals or the like.The USA had a great immigration law from 1924, that should have been kept. However, greed and Catholic influence got the law changed in 1965, with unkept promises. The US would never have reached the gross overpopulation of now, and most of the population gain that is depleting our resources of all kinds, is from immigration both legal and illegal and their offspring from over-breeding tendencies. The allowance of birthright citizenship against the real words and spirit of the 14th Amendment, has been another big mistake. We knew about overpopulation by 1966, yet the government chose in essence, self destruction. Just like many European countries also have. So those who saw the overpopulation, then the AGW, and have tried to do something about it, have been outnumbered by >>the greedy, and over-tolerant, over-compassion infinite Earthers, and over-breeders.<<The are the enemies of sustainability. They are the killers of future generations who will never be, and eventually, most of the life on this planet. The population crash of circa 2050 and the thermageddon extinction(estimated at 87% of all species) circa 2300-2500 is all their fault, and to me, against God's wishes for a replenished planet of people living in harmony with themselves and God's natural laws and gifts to us, and giving love to Him. Those within the arrows above will not go to Heaven, for they have defiled the planet given them, by a deadly lack of foresight of the consequences of their actions. Some may have the delusion they are going to Heaven when they will be chastised and their souls wiped out of existence.The time for population reduction , stopping fossil fuel use, adopting a steady state economy, and "niching" countries from overpopulation caused invasions, is now. There most likely will be no second chance. Time is of the extreme essence.

_________________"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein

If we are thinking in terms of nationhood, we only create more division and conflict.

Not really. We do rather well with others countries that tend to share our beliefs in human rights. Oops, I said the R word. But then again, that's really what you're talking about when you say "nationhood". That being the case, I'll happily endorse division, even conflict if the conditions warrant, with any other nation or group that doesn't share our values of human life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

In the meantime, you can try enticing them to sit around a campfire singing kumbaya. Let us know how that works out.

Nationhood, and religion, too, both start as ideas and progress toward organization and physical realities. This thread is about >>>getting Americans back to work.<<<

Yeah, I know what the thread is about and what your idea is, but I am suggesting that your concern is not rooted in anything other than fear. Your concern also comes from this ingrained belief that you are an American citizen and that borders are an actuality. Borders ARE an actuality on a certain level .... the level that many of us have agreed on as an idea. But they are still only ideas. Paper tigers.

Personally, I am an "Involved Deist" as per the Big Book of AA.

You say that as if you think I know what you're talking about, and I don't. What is an "Invloved Deist" and what is the "Big Book of AA"? I am interested to know and, having said that, I am also comparing religious beliefs with the belief in nationhood which is really just an identification with some nation-state which in turn is an idea just as religion or "God" is a belief or idea. People also identify themselves with God. I think identifiication with either is not real.

I am not in any organized religion(all of which are hogwash to me). Now, back on subject.The above links provide proof that Americans will take the jobs vacated by deported illegals(20+ million!), or the jobs taken by new immigrants we don't need because we are already overpopulated(see "Elephants in the Volkswagen" or "How Many Americans" both by the esteemed Lindsey Grant of NPG). The link to the laws broken with fines owed is a win-win scenario the head-in-the-sand politicians or the guilty don't want enforced. I want them enforced because we need the jobs, we need the fine money(to pay off the National Debt and prevent hyper inflation/world economic depression), and we need to reduce population to long term sustainable(deporting the 30 million illegals, both working and not, is a good start), with the corresponding reduction in emissions, other pollution and depletion of various resources.

You may have escaped the snares of organized religion but you've not escaped the beliefs of organized nationhood. Both are deeply ingrained in the human psyche which is a shared consciousness. That little boy in Bangledesh shares your consciousness regardless of citizenship, his or yours, and both fates are intertwined. If you are truly concerned about the planet, you will see it as a whole because a planet is a whole despite the boundaries we have carved out. The boundaries are an idea while the planet itself is a reality. If you want to reduce population you need to think about reducing globally - not just nationally. If you deport the 30 million, those 30 milliion still exist on the planet. Tossing them over some idea of border will never reduce numbers, emissions or other pollution. You cannot ever secure the integrity and security of that place which is called the United States if other so callled nations are not also secure. The pollution that those 30 million produce is not dependent on borders because, very realistically. there are none. Pollution knows no borders. Depletion of resources ultimately has no citizenship. So why do you adhere to your so called citizenship? If you don't mind me saying, it's not rational.

Most of us want to belong to some group because it gives us some notion of psychological security. The need and insistence on psychological security only creates actual, physical and very real insecurity. We are not actually divided by these beliefs as they are only beliefs. But yet again, we are truly divided by these beliefs because they are beliefs.

Why have any belief at all? That boy in Bangledesh suffers needlessly because of them.

If we are thinking in terms of nationhood, we only create more division and conflict.

Not really. We do rather well with others countries that tend to share our beliefs in human rights. Oops, I said the R word. But then again, that's really what you're talking about when you say "nationhood". That being the case, I'll happily endorse division, even conflict if the conditions warrant, with any other nation or group that doesn't share our values of human life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

In the meantime, you can try enticing them to sit around a campfire singing kumbaya. Let us know how that works out.

Animal F doesn't want to answer you. He would rather sidetrack the whole thread to some guilt trip about a kid in Bangladesh suffering. That kid is the result of ignorant over-breeding and his suffering is the fault only of his parents.

_________________"With every decision, think seven generations ahead of the consequences of your actions" Ute rule of life.“We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children”― Chief Seattle“Those Who Have the Privilege to Know Have the Duty to Act”…Albert Einstein

That kid is the result of ignorant over-breeding and his suffering is the fault only of his parents.

True. I might add, there's no one to blame either. It is what it is...a grave result.

Right now, there are too many societies and cultures that can't support their own weight (one just south of the US, in fact) and/or are flat-out intent on killing their own and everyone else that doesn't surrender to them or their...why, you guessed it...beliefs. So if it's beliefs with which some have a problem, perhaps they should redirect their efforts toward those beliefs that actually DO threaten the very way of life they are promoting.

I'll no longer adhere to my citizenship when it really DOES become a moot point.