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So you're saying that Naruto in sage mode without the Kyuubi will get to be just as strong as flashback Hashirama?

i think this is possible. sage mode is just the spirit bomb. hashirama is stronger because his version draws more chakra or something to that affect. when naruto learns the same, i believe he will level up to this status

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrShady

Now do you see my point. It's lame that these dead guys are this powerful, it really wasn't necessary.

the original sage of 6 was strong enough by himself to take on a full powered juubi. he then became two lineages. considering that madara explained the story of the sage to obito offscreen, and currently hashirama is starting his story at he and madara, im feeling like we are not going to get much more insight into the actual So6 paths sons...so for all intents and purposes these two legendary ninja (madara and hash) represent the power of the two sons of the sage...a combined power capable of taking down the juubi

also sasuke is gonna have to team up with naruto at some point

Quote:

Originally Posted by gibits

That Senju jutsu that the 1st used at the end of the chapter looked like a super up version of Asuma's Thousand armed murder in the anime. I wonder if Kishi saw that filler and said: yeah I like that, I'm gonna take that.
Still "thousand armed" seems to be more a Senju (literally thousand arms) thing than a Saritobi one.

i think its the other way around. that technique asuma used was borrowed from his monk friend. i think when its all said and done, a deity or some divine being will be responsible for making hashirama as powerful as he is

That Senju jutsu that the 1st used at the end of the chapter looked like a super up version of Asuma's Thousand armed murder in the anime. I wonder if Kishi saw that filler and said: yeah I like that, I'm gonna take that.
Still "thousand armed" seems to be more a Senju (literally thousand arms) thing than a Saritobi one.

Or he watched Gantz movie and said. That'd make a good jutsu, I'll use that.

lol thats just a quote from Jim Kelly / Bushido Brown. I guess you're not familiar with the cartoon or Enter the dragon movie; you'd realize I was just joking around and didn't mean it as an actual insult, you're literally making me laugh out loud that you took it so offensive. I just meant to say that I disagree with your statement in a playful way, but nvm though. You not knowing the reference makes me feel old :P

Im kind of suprised you took it so seriously, even as an insult it sounds pretty old and outdated lol

Fair enough, but to be fair, as someone who did not catch the reference, it sounded kind of like you were being very condescending without actually explaining "why" I was stupid, as if I was too stupid to even understand the explanation.

Anyways, I won't deny that the Nine-Tails has saved Naruto's ass on more than one occasion, but I will also name a few instances where the Nine-Tails has been more of an obstacle than help.

-During the fight with Deidara
-During the fight with Orochimaru
-Can't do fusion with the frog
-During the fight with Pain

Some might not entirely agree and say that those instances worked in Naruto's favor, but to me it's more like a lucky break that it did.

^naruto was the ultimate underdog for a while. sure, the kyuubi was in him, but its use during the haku and zabuza arc wasn't naruto, it was the kyuubi taking him over like an evil spirit possessing a young child. and from then on it was a demon we saw in his mind who was always threatening him. naruto was always being put down by everyone around him, even the kyuubi. he had no friends and was always thought to be a loser who wouldn't win in any of his fights like vs kiba and neji. only after he beat gaara did the village start to treat him as more of a comrade and his underdogness vanished rather quickly into feats of kage-level strength

None of that is being an underdog. Naruto has a nuclear bomb in his stomach, so any of the earlier fights he was in could have been solved at any time by the nuclear bomb going off (it's what happened against Haku, and then he started to learn hopw to control it). It doesn't matter if it was an evil presence or like a possession, it was still a force within Naruto that made it so he could not die or, in some of the earlier fights (specifically Negi's and Gaara's) be defeated. It doesn't matter that Naruto was put down on, considered a loser, mocked and ridiculed for his childish stunts, treated as an equal, etc. He had the Kyuubi, and the Kyuubi almost always evened the odds. He was not an underdog, just unappreciated.

And yet Naruto fits none of your wiki examples. If the Greeks had a nuclear bomb against the Persians, would they still be considered an underdog (fill in nuclear bomb for every example listed)? Naruto's treatment is not representative of his ability or the forces at his disposal. You can not be an underdog if you have the most powerful force in existence (or second most) on your side (even if it works against you just as much as for you...similar to a real nuclear weapon ).

You're both right and wrong James. Naruto never was an underdog as far as we, the readers, knew because of everything you've said however he used to be an underdog as far as most of the characters were concerned because they didn't know any better. Although even then it hasn't been true since Naruto received a standing ovation after defeating Neji 516 chapters ago so that's real old news.

None of that is being an underdog. Naruto has a nuclear bomb in his stomach, so any of the earlier fights he was in could have been solved at any time by the nuclear bomb going off (it's what happened against Haku, and then he started to learn hopw to control it). It doesn't matter if it was an evil presence or like a possession, it was still a force within Naruto that made it so he could not die or, in some of the earlier fights (specifically Negi's and Gaara's) be defeated. It doesn't matter that Naruto was put down on, considered a loser, mocked and ridiculed for his childish stunts, treated as an equal, etc. He had the Kyuubi, and the Kyuubi almost always evened the odds. He was not an underdog, just unappreciated.

but it is being an underdog. an underdog can win. look at rocky balboa beating apollo creed. for example, naruto was thought to be an underdog vs neji. the entire Colosseum thought he had no chance. that's an underdog. i think you are getting too carried away with the kyuubi's presence. just because naruto had a failsafe doesnt negate him being an underdog. that's actually what the series was about until post-chuunin exam. we see naruto's chipped fingernails and covered in mud and his speech to neji about hard work overcoming talent and it all exemplifies the underdog overcoming the odds mantra that the series was all about at that time. yes, it's old news, but this is in response to saying that naruto was never an underdog.

Who said anything about an underdog losing? Underdogs win all the time, but they win after beating the odds. Naruto has almost always had the odds stacked in his favor (or at lest kept things equal). Even in the Neji fight the odds were frankly stacked in his favor (it was blindingly obvious that Naruto would be able to defeat Neji's most powerful technique) and he won not through hard work (per se), but determination and the Kyuubi (I personally never saw Naruto's triumph as hardwork vs. genius, but rather overwhelming power and determination vs. genius).

People may have not believed in him, even treated him like the fool he was/is, but he was never truly outclassed and could instantly switch the entire battle to his favor just by tapping into the powers given to him by the Kyuubi.

That is not to say that I don't believe that Kishimoto may have intended for Naruto to be considered an underdog (Kurenai's words during the Kiba fight show just how truly dumb she is), he just failed completely at the task.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter

You're both right and wrong James. Naruto never was an underdog as far as we, the readers, knew because of everything you've said however he used to be an underdog as far as most of the characters were concerned because they didn't know any better. Although even then it hasn't been true since Naruto received a standing ovation after defeating Neji 516 chapters ago so that's real old news.

It hasn't been true since Naruto defeated an experienced chuunin before he was even a genin. It hasn't been true since Naruto led a successful attack against an elite Jounin (not to mention defeating another supposedly Jounin-level opponent days later). It hasn't been true since Orochimaru signaled out Naruto's potential during the Chuunin Exam and attempted to limit his growth. Etc.

The character's refusal to acknowledge Naruto prowess has always been baffling and frankly reeks of Kishimoto purposely keeping the characters dumb for overly simplistic emotional moments (e.g. the standing ovation).

I think the problem here is a question of definition, being an underdog doesn't mean you aren't likely to win (ie playing the odds) it's about being expected to lose.
Of course one should follow the other in a logical world but that's not the case here so even if all those people had to be complete moron to expect Naruto to lose given his Jinchuuriki status and track record the fact remains that they did expect him to lose which make him the underdog by definition.

underdog: (1) a person who is expected to lose in a contest or conflict. (2) a victim of social or political injustice

both describe naruto perfectly during the first part of the series that we are discussing

I didn't know the second definition. For that I cannot argue. But, the first is, as I've said several times now, false (for the various reasons I've outlined). Naruto may have been expected to lose, but there was actually no reason to expect his lose (just stupid characters being stupid, or, for the younger generation, characters that didn't know any better). I'm not even talking about a meta analysis of a series named Naruto, I'm talking about the simply fact that every Jinchuuriki is absurdly powerful (even if we only knew of the two in Part I), so anyone that expected Naruto to be different was just being stupid for no real reason.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter

I think the problem here is a question of definition, being an underdog doesn't mean you aren't likely to win (ie playing the odds) it's about being expected to lose.
Of course one should follow the other in a logical world but that's not the case here so even if all those people had to be complete moron to expect Naruto to lose given his Jinchuuriki status and track record the fact remains that they did expect him to lose which make him the underdog by definition.

Fair enough. It is an extreme asspull in my opinion that only works by literally dumbing down the characters (and consequently the audience).

I didn't know the second definition. For that I cannot argue. But, the first is, as I've said several times now, false (for the various reasons I've outlined). Naruto may have been expected to lose, but there was actually no reason to expect his lose (just stupid characters being stupid, or, for the younger generation, characters that didn't know any better). I'm not even talking about a meta analysis of a series named Naruto, I'm talking about the simply fact that every Jinchuuriki is absurdly powerful (even if we only knew of the two in Part I), so anyone that expected Naruto to be different was just being stupid for no real reason.

well i do agree that it's stupid and makes no sense that the crowd expected nothing from a jinchuuriki. it just goes to show the level of retconning done as far as the bijou/jinchuuriki are concerned. kishi's just lucky that he drew shukaku with a tail so he could eventually be known as the ichibi and not simply another monster demon like he originally was in the story along with the kyuubi. nevertheless, the entire crowd did expect naruto to lose. iirc even hiruzen was impressed and he's 'brilliant'. so i guess we can just agree to disagree, but i don't think injecting the readers' expectations is appropriate. we all know naruto won't die in his fights and will very rarely lose

I pinned the 4th as Naruto's father from as early as Chapter 1.
There were far too many things right off that pointed to this as a fact.

I actually made a mistake by stating it was too unrealistic, it still is very unrealistic. I understand your points, but it's not about what hints it but about all the things that would not make sense if that's the case.

When people talk about clans like the Uchiha or Hyuuga and even smaller ones they never ever mention the Uzumaki clan. Even when people learn Naruto's surname there's absolutely no reaction, not even from older people who should have more knowledge about the world. It's not only the clan itself, but there were two very special persons, two women who were wives of 2 great hokages and had the name Uzumaki, one of them being pregnant right before she died. Even if people didn't know that the kyuubi is inside Naruto they should have known that Uzumaki is special. But they knew that the kyuubi was inside him.

Then there's Naruto himself, why didn't he ever ask who were his parents, how did they die, or that maybe they are alive. He was 15 years old, traveling around with Jiraiya who really liked him, but they never talk about Naruto's parents. Jiraiya never tells him about his parents, even if he should know that telling Naruto the truth would probably help him becoming mentally stronger and thus their training to tame the kyuubi would have better results. Even the raikage knew who his parents were, that doesn't seem to be a deep secret of the village, and when it's revealed it seems to be common knowledge to the higher ups of the village (in this case Jiraiya and Tsunade, but obviously Danzou and the elders should also know about that).

So we either say that it's unrealistic or that ninja in this manga are generally retarded Even elite ones like Jiraiya or Tsunade have as much empathy as a stone, as they didn't even bother telling Naruto who he was. But that was just confirmed in the current chapter by the 2nd and 3rd hokage's behavior towards Itachi and Sasuke Of course i understand that all this is for plot reasons, if ninja just talked about their problems and resolved their conflicts by talking then there wouldn't be non-stop ninja fighting and that can't happen in action shonen manga

I didn't know the second definition. For that I cannot argue. But, the first is, as I've said several times now, false (for the various reasons I've outlined). Naruto may have been expected to lose, but there was actually no reason to expect his lose (just stupid characters being stupid, or, for the younger generation, characters that didn't know any better). I'm not even talking about a meta analysis of a series named Naruto, I'm talking about the simply fact that every Jinchuuriki is absurdly powerful (even if we only knew of the two in Part I), so anyone that expected Naruto to be different was just being stupid for no real reason.

The thing you're forgetting is that Naruto isn't a typical Jinchuuriki. Using Bee and Gaara as an example, Jinchuuriki are typically given special training to use the Bijuu's power as young as possible to be living artillery. In Naruto's case, he was raised normally without that training.

Remember the match with Neji? Everyone was surprised that Naruto could use the Kyuubi's power at all, much less at will. Judging from that, we can tell Naruto wasn't meant to be a weapon like most Jinchuuriki, so it's not all that surprising they didn't treat him like one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

When people talk about clans like the Uchiha or Hyuuga and even smaller ones they never ever mention the Uzumaki clan. Even when people learn Naruto's surname there's absolutely no reaction, not even from older people who should have more knowledge about the world.

To be fair, the Uzumaki clan was destroyed at least 16 years ago, right? People tend to forget things quickly. Most of the older people that hear Naruto's last name know about him already anyway.

Quote:

Then there's Naruto himself, why didn't he ever ask who were his parents, how did they die, or that maybe they are alive. He was 15 years old, traveling around with Jiraiya who really liked him, but they never talk about Naruto's parents. Jiraiya never tells him about his parents, even if he should know that telling Naruto the truth would probably help him becoming mentally stronger and thus their training to tame the kyuubi would have better results. Even the raikage knew who his parents were, that doesn't seem to be a deep secret of the village, and when it's revealed it seems to be common knowledge to the higher ups of the village (in this case Jiraiya and Tsunade, but obviously Danzou and the elders should also know about that).

I figured he had to have asked Sarutobi at some point. We know he didn't know about Minato, but he must have known about the Uzumaki clan, since he's been wearing their clan crest on his clothes for years. As for Jiraiya and Tsunade, they must have been keeping it secret for a reason. Maybe they were scared he'd start blabbing it or something?

I figured he had to have asked Sarutobi at some point. We know he didn't know about Minato, but he must have known about the Uzumaki clan, since he's been wearing their clan crest on his clothes for years. As for Jiraiya and Tsunade, they must have been keeping it secret for a reason. Maybe they were scared he'd start blabbing it or something?

In a filler Naruto asks Sarutobi if he ever met his parents. Sarutobi decides not to tell him the truth due to the fact it wouldn't change anything.

Getting back on topic (above discussion is interesting but not really relevant to the chapter), seems like Orochimaru not only experimented with Hashirama's DNA but also copied some of his jutsu if his summoning of the Rashomon gates is any indication.

Also about Hashirama and Madara meeting as kids, yes their clans are enemies but neither of them knows each other's names (they didn't actually introduce themselves to each other) nor are they displaying their clan symbols, so it's just two kids having a chance meeting and nothing more.