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The Lion, The Witch, And The DLP-Defend; A 4-4-2 Thread

Before I start let me just say please don’t ask for a download link. This thread is in the discussion area of the forum for a reason. Looking at the information given it should take you a matter of five minutes to create the tactic anyway.

Also I’ve kind of nicked they style of the post from Cleon, though he’s a good chap, (most of the time), and won’t mind I’m sure.

The 4-4-2 is has become a much derided formation over the years here on the Football Manager forums. There are two main gripes people have with it;

1) It doesn't offer enough defensive cover from the midfield area compared to other formations that employ a DM
2) It doesn't do enough in an attacking sense with the players being stuck playing in straight lines. Indeed, the latter is even a real life complaint, aimed at our very own national team manager Roy Hodgson!

With this thread I aim to show how the 4-4-2 can work in respect to the defensive work of the CM’s. Now before charging into things I will point out that I’m doing this thread with Manchester United, for which there are two reasons;

1) They are the club I support and I haven’t started a save with them on any FM since the days of Cristiano Ronaldo
2) The 4-4-2 is no longer favoured in real life by the bigger clubs, with most of them opting a variant on the 4-5-1 system

The Aim

As with any formation, the aim is to create a system that wins football matches. And as some of you may well know, (I have been around a while and done bits and pieces in various areas of the forums), I like to have a strong defence aswell as a potent attack. However I always prefer to have a strong defence – if the opposition don’t score, we can’t lose! With a club like United though, it is expectd that I win with a certain style, so I can’t just focus on the defensive aspect as I did last year with a 3 Defensive Midfielders system.

The thing I like about doing this with such a big club is that there is no time to waste in analysing things over a vast period of time to see what can be changed for the better. I have to get this right very early on or I’ll probably get sacked.

Formation And Tactics

Well, 4-4-2, it’s self-explanatory; A goalkeeper, two banks of four, and two attackers. Traditional, simple. Though for those of you that struggle with simple, (I’m looking at you Cleon!), then here it is;

This is how it generally lines up, although it does change if certain players come into the team. For instance if Shinji Kagawa is employed in the ML position, the role will change to Wide Midfielder – Support.

Looking at the system you might think I’m just asking for trouble on the right hand side with both the RB (Fullback) and RM (Winger) on the attack duty. That may be true, but it would be foolish to ask my right back, (Rafael), not to attack as that’s what he’s good at, or to ask might right winger, (primarily Nani), to spend his time tracking back in the Defensive Winger role when he offers so much more. So in the end sometimes you just have to accept that you have a weak point in the team. You can agree or disagree, but every manager knows he has a weak point- he just won’t admit it in public.

The team instructions remain the same for every game, and things are changed with the use of touchline shouts. More about those later.

Style

With having so few specialised roles I maybe should have gone for a Balanced style or even Fluid. Many would argue that playing with a Rigid style limits my team, but I’m happy with what this styles offers in terms of my central defenders. As the description points out; Central Defenders are responsible only for the defensive phase. I don’t want them strolling up field with the ball leaving gaps at the back.

I expect it would be queried why I have creative freedom set to More Expressive with the rigid style? Well that is simply because I still want my players to express themselves when we attack. The last thing I want to do is end up like Chelsea of last season; with everything regimented with little expression whatsoever.

With the roles I have in the team, the rigid style also means that mentalities are generally kept close together;

This is not my selection for the game I will be showing analysis from, this screenshot was taken just recently to show the mentalities.

Seven of the outfield players have mentalities closely grouped around the middle of the slider, which if I’m right, (though I’m probably not!), means that the players are generally on the same wave length and will keep in shape when we are defending or line up when our goalkeeper has the ball.

Strategy And Shouts

The strategy is simple; Standard. With this strategy you get to evaluate what is happening in the game early on, (in the first fifteen minutes or so), and make adjustments accordingly using the touchline shouts.

Here is a screenshot of what I noticed after just 27 seconds of a recent match, (the game I am focusing on here), against Arsenal;

The goalkeeper has rolled the ball out to my left sided centre back after receiving it from a header back to him from my right back. With the exception of the right back, who should be pushed on a bit more, they are all where they are meant to be in line with their mentalities.

There is a lot of space between the two banks of four, but unless we give it away sloppily then it isn’t issue. I instead look at this from the attacking point of view. The man with the ball has two clear options; the left midfielder and the left sided CM. The ML is in acres of space inbetween the Arsenal AMR and RB, and this alone so early in the game encouraged me to actually leave things as they were rather than changing strategy via a shout, (I have certain strategies to fit certain shouts). In the end the pass didn’t go to the ML and nothing came of this, but the game was already defined in terms of how my strategy would work in my eyes.

Arsenal had more of the ball in this game than me, but that’s understandable; they were at home, and had six attacking players, (2 CM’s, AML/R/C, and STC), fairly close together. Aswell as that I didn’t ask my players to keep the ball - I was happy with my banks of four and how we attacked when we had the chance. If I had wanted us to keep hold of the ball then I would have used this shout;

(“Change Strategy” is actually ticked and set to Control, however this screenshot was taken before I remembered to that and I couldn’t be bothered redoing the screenie!)

Later on in the game when Arsenal were ramping up the pressure I changed to the following shout;

This allows us to spring forward at pace, exploiting the fullback areas that are invariably more open when the opposition is chasing the game. In this game little came in terms of chances by using this shout, but it did allow us to relieve pressure by taking the ball further up-field.

These are currently the only two shouts I have set out for this formation, but I’m sure another one will follow.

Now to move on to what I said would be the focus of this thread; to show a little of how the central midfield area works, inparticular the DLP-Defend.

As I pointed out earlier, FM’ers have generally concluded that the 4-4-2 doesn’t offer defensive cover from midfield because of the lack of a DM. This is a great misconception that I hope to change your views on.

As you are well aware if you have looked at the formation layout, one of my CM’s is a DLP – Defend, and the other an AP – Attack. The following screenshot comes little after two minutes;

You can see the CM’s are close together, infact they were inline with one another before the ball was fed towards Arsenal’s Diaby, but I rolled it on a couple of seconds to show the moment Cleverly (no.23) has won the ball. Van Persie picks it up and pops it off to our ML, and yellow arrows show exactly what Cleverly is going to do next. Here is what things look like just a few seconds later;

Cleverley has bombed forward after winning the ball, joining up with the wingers and the attackers in the attacking phase of our play. Carrick (no.16) has moved infront of the centre backs creating a defensive triangle that can adequately deal with the Arsenal striker and their AMC who is starred.

The following illustrates the same, but from a different kind of point.

In this screenshot Ferdinand has received the ball from the goalkeeper and carried it forward just before releasing it to the man in the ML position, Ashley Young (no.18). Carrick and Cleverley are circled in yellow and it is illustrated how close they are together. As Ferdinand release the ball to Young, the yellow arrow again shows what Cleverley is going to do.

Carrick on the other hand has a grey line leading to what will be his position when Young has carried the ball just over the halfway line and the play has moved into a more attacking phase for us. Here is a screenshot of how it looks just a few seconds later;

Exactly the same happened as before; Cleverley has moved into a more forward role in the attacking phase of play, whereas Carrick has taken up his familiar position infront of the CB’s, forming a triangle that is geared to dealing with Arsenal’s AMC and STC. If Carrick was a DLP-Support, then the central defenders would be left two on two with the Arsenal players.

A DM would do the same, but he would already be in that position, and that to me is far too static. Movement is key in football.

The next couple of screenshots showw what else the DLP-Defend does;

The player circled in light blue is Vidic, and the light blue arrow illustrates what he has done.

The ball was fed in to Arsenal striker Olivier Giroud and he has followed him out leaving a big gap inbetween my right back and other CB. Giroud passes it off to Arteta and Vidic, maybe rather stupidly, follow the ball rather than getting back into position. Carrick is circled in yellow and his yellow arrow shows exactly what he should do. Does this happen? You bet it does;

The play has rolled on just three seconds, but as Arteta still has the ball and Vidic has yet to recover his position, Carrick has dropped into the defensive line, meaning that there isn’t a great big gap in my back line for Arsenal to expose.

These are just a couple of minor things I have noticed. There are no doubt more things I could pick up on, but hey, I have a life like the rest of you and can’t spend all the time I want analysing and writing this stuff.

But I hope I have shown at least a couple of things to you, and that you have learned a little. I’m sure at some point I might well add to this and look at how we attack more. But if not, then I hope you’ve enjoyed this read.

that was a very interesting read, well put together and it has opened my eyes a bit. I would never ever of thought to play a dlp D and ap A together as a midfield partnership but seeing how the dlp D drops in front of the back 4 might now just change my mind. I generally stay away from a 4-4-2 mainly because the big gaps that the midfield leaves behind it. Might give the old formation a look over in the near future

I always enjoy threads that show how and why something works. I think you learn more from these type of threads and would like to see a lot more of them on the forums.

Although I know the answer I'll still ask a question for discussion purposes - The DLP is the defensive player from how you've set up. How does he fair against a team who use a AMC? Does he defend deep enough?

that was a very interesting read, well put together and it has opened my eyes a bit. I would never ever of thought to play a dlp D and ap A together as a midfield partnership but seeing how the dlp D drops in front of the back 4 might now just change my mind. I generally stay away from a 4-4-2 mainly because the big gaps that the midfield leaves behind it. Might give the old formation a look over in the near future

Thanks for the kind words, and glad to hear Ive made you think a bit. That's the idea of threads in this section of the forum.

Originally Posted by Cleon

A quality topic

I always enjoy threads that show how and why something works. I think you learn more from these type of threads and would like to see a lot more of them on the forums.

Although I know the answer I'll still ask a question for discussion purposes - The DLP is the defensive player from how you've set up. How does he fair against a team who use a AMC? Does he defend deep enough?

For starters, thanks Cleon. I was expecting you pop up sooner or later.

To answer your question, he sits right in the space where the opposition AMC likes to operate, but gives him a couple of yards before engaging him if/when the AMC recieves the ball. Invariably he gets himself right into the space inbetween the opposition STC and AMC, meaning he can actually engage either, depending on how the attack pans out.

Perfect timing for me this thread, as I was getting tempted to start work on a 4-4-2.

The thing that has put me off so far is not the fact that the formation has gone out of fashion, nor the common perception that it's hard to get a solid defensive midfield role.
What I see as the biggest challenge of a 4-4-2 is getting overall balance and movement in central midfield.
There are a wealth of 3 man centre midfield formations (whether a DM + 2 MC's, 2 DMs + 1 MC, 2 MCs + 1 AM etc.) and these are easy to set up with a player on defend, one on support, and one on attack.

With a 4-4-2, I'd 100% choose a DLP on Defend for precisely the reasons you have, but that's when I'd pause for too long to think about his partner. I'm typically cautious and would possibly start with an AP on Support, but then I'd lose much of the good link play that Cleverly probably gives you.

Your screenshots show very well the forward movement of the AP, plus the defensive positioning of the DLP, but what happens against a 3 man midfield?
I'd guess that Rafael is more often than not effectively an extra man in midfield, and that the winger on the left puts in a decent amount of defensive work with highish closing down?

I guess my preconceived fear is that a Defend plus an Attack duty in a central pairing could stretch the middle and leave you empty there. If you play against a team with one AM and two DMs, what happens?

Gotta say I really appreciate this thread. I've been struggling a bit to find a formation for my team, giving it a try and seeing some really great results. Definitely an interesting midfield pairing but it works really nicely.

Great thread and a great way of showing how much this role brings to a team under the radar. The DLP defend role has Michael Carrick written all over it and having watched the majority of Man Utd matches this year, I've got to say the similarities of how he plays in real life compared to how this role performs in FM are unreal.

It's threads like these and Cleons that make me love this part of the forum.

Been thinking for a while about doing a 442 and this has made me want to try it, will also be doing it with United FC United that is, see if I can get them up the leagues while using a 442

Thank you for the kind words.

Originally Posted by RTHerringbone

but what happens against a 3 man midfield?

When you say a three man midfield, do you mean such as a DM and 2 CM's, or more a flat three, perhaps in a 4-3-1-2 system? Either way, I've not encountered either midfield set-up yet.

Originally Posted by RTHerringbone

I'd guess that Rafael is more often than not effectively an extra man in midfield, and that the winger on the left puts in a decent amount of defensive work with highish closing down?

Rafael bombs on like a nut case at times, which is, as I said in the opening post, is a bit of a weak point in the team. When I have Nani on the right wing though he really adds something to us attacking wise, as left or right, he likes to come inside, and on the right that leaves alot of space of Rafael to go in to.

The left winger, (Ashley Young most of the time), has on average covered 13.6km a game, and that is from 12 appearances. It's the joint second highest in the squad of anyone who has started ten games or more. So yes, he does get through a fair bit of work, but how much of that is defensive I'm not totally sure.

Originally Posted by RTHerringbone

I guess my preconceived fear is that a Defend plus an Attack duty in a central pairing could stretch the middle and leave you empty there. If you play against a team with one AM and two DMs, what happens?

Well I've come across that formation twice, and both times Carrick has had more space to operate in to pick out passes. Cleverley has stuggled to get forward and affect things as much, and that is maybe something I have to think about changing in future.

Originally Posted by joel1031

Gotta say I really appreciate this thread. I've been struggling a bit to find a formation for my team, giving it a try and seeing some really great results. Definitely an interesting midfield pairing but it works really nicely.

Glad I've given you a bit of insight.

Originally Posted by crewe_york

Great thread and a great way of showing how much this role brings to a team under the radar. The DLP defend role has Michael Carrick written all over it and having watched the majority of Man Utd matches this year, I've got to say the similarities of how he plays in real life compared to how this role performs in FM are unreal.

Yes even I have been a bit surprised with how much it has mirrored real life.

They are as I expected. It was actually the defensive side of things I was looking at, so thanks for posting the tackles too

No problem.

Cleverley had a relatively average night passing wise, but he put in a shift so I was relatively happy. Of course if we were at home, I'd have expected more from him. Carrick, well what you can you say? He kept things calm with his passing and was successful with every tackle he made, six of which were in and around the centre circle.

Cleverley had a relatively average night passing wise, but he put in a shift so I was relatively happy. Of course if we were at home, I'd have expected more from him. Carrick, well what you can you say? He kept things calm with his passing and was successful with every tackle he made, six of which were in and around the centre circle.

How does Carrick do against teams who stand off and don't press as much? Does he run the show even better and sees more of the ball?

How does Carrick do against teams who stand off and don't press as much? Does he run the show even better and sees more of the ball?

Oh yes indeed. In fact I'll give you two examples from recent matches............

This first screenshot comes from a home match against Aston Villa, a fixture that we won 8-1. (Yes, you read that right!!). We had 59% of the possession in this game, and Carrick was able to exert much more influence further up the field;

Compared to the Arsenal game he made many more passes in the oppositions half of the field as we dominated proceedings. Throughout the match he attempted 72 passes and completed 65 of them. Only one was deemed to be "key", but looking back at the goals we scored, he was often involved by either recylcing possession or popping the ball off out wide.

Villa used two formations during the game; 4-1-2-1-2 (narrow diamond) which they started with, and quickly changed to a 4-2-3-1 (two DM's, AMR/L/C) with us already 2-0 up. Neither formation caused us any real problems and we exploited the wide areas excellently throughout. The man in Villa's AMC role, (Stephen Ireland for the whole game), had a shocker, and for the majority of the game the gap between the AM's and the DM's gave Carrick plenty of room to operate in.

-------------------------------------

This next screenshot is from our very next league game, which was away at Tottenham. We won it 2-0 and shaded possession 52% to 48%, and as you can see he again made alot passes, but they were in two specific areas;

He attempted 76 passes and completed 68 of them. There were again a good amount of them in that area in that right-ish channel just inside there half, (yellow box), but compared to the Villa game alot between our penalty box and the halfway line, (black box), as he tidied Tottenham attacks up and kept things simple.

Tottenham's 4-1-2-2-1, (the shape that you and I both used mostly with Ajax), formation allowed him a good amount of room to operate in, and he gave a very solid if not spectacular performance.

Oh yes indeed. In fact I'll give you two examples from recent matches............

This first screenshot comes from a home match against Aston Villa, a fixture that we won 8-1. (Yes, you read that right!!). We had 59% of the possession in this game, and Carrick was able to exert much more influence further up the field;

Compared to the Arsenal game he made many more passes in the oppositions half of the field as we dominated proceedings. Throughout the match he attempted 72 passes and completed 65 of them. Only one was deemed to be "key", but looking back at the goals we scored, he was often involved by either recylcing possession or popping the ball off out wide.

Villa used two formations during the game; 4-1-2-1-2 (narrow diamond) which they started with, and quickly changed to a 4-2-3-1 (two DM's, AMR/L/C) with us already 2-0 up. Neither formation caused us any real problems and we exploited the wide areas excellently throughout. The man in Villa's AMC role, (Stephen Ireland for the whole game), had a shocker, and for the majority of the game the gap between the AM's and the DM's gave Carrick plenty of room to operate in.

-------------------------------------

This next screenshot is from our very next league game, which was away at Tottenham. We won it 2-0 and shaded possession 52% to 48%, and as you can see he again made alot passes, but they were in two specific areas;

He attempted 76 passes and completed 68 of them. There were again a good amount of them in that area in that right-ish channel just inside there half, (yellow box), but compared to the Villa game alot between our penalty box and the halfway line, (black box), as he tidied Tottenham attacks up and kept things simple.

Tottenham's 4-1-2-2-1, (the shape that you and I both used mostly with Ajax), formation allowed him a good amount of room to operate in, and he gave a very solid if not spectacular performance.

A great post showing the variation depending on level of opposition and formation faced. I'm a massive DLP fan and love how they recycle possession its just a shame the average ratings doesn't always reflect this because its to biased towards goals and assists.

Depending on who you face or who you play next to Carrick do you ever change the tole from AP to something else to offer you something different?

A great post showing the variation depending on level of opposition and formation faced. I'm a massive DLP fan and love how they recycle possession its just a shame the average ratings doesn't always reflect this because its to biased towards goals and assists.

Depending on who you face or who you play next to Carrick do you ever change the tole from AP to something else to offer you something different?

Against Villa he did actually manage a rating of 8.2 despite neither scoring or assisting.

So far the partner has always been an AP, simply because the options i have, (Cleverley, Kagawa, Giggs, & Powell), dictate as much.

The main question that is in my mind while reading.What happens if you loose posession in midfield?
I mean does Carrick work back, or will he be lazy and just watch the defence working? Because if he is not helping out defensive wise I would sacc the AP and give him a more water carrier role (BWM or B2B). And I think its very difficult if Carrick as your main Playmaker will advance forwad (we see he passes much in the last third) and then suddenly you lose posession. This happens very often in control based tactics.

Have you any ideas on a good advanced forward but cheap? for my Arsenal side.

Not the foggiest. Also the Good Player &Team Guide is the place for that sort of thing.

Originally Posted by Maradonna

The main question that is in my mind while reading.What happens if you loose posession in midfield?
I mean does Carrick work back, or will he be lazy and just watch the defence working? Because if he is not helping out defensive wise I would sacc the AP and give him a more water carrier role (BWM or B2B). And I think its very difficult if Carrick as your main Playmaker will advance forwad (we see he passes much in the last third) and then suddenly you lose posession. This happens very often in control based tactics.

It would be nice to se a avg position screen though.

Nice read

For starters let me set you straight with something; this is not a control based tactic. I use a group of shouts to adjust to the control strategy if the game warrants it, but every match starts with a standard strategy and makes chages accordingly.

I also don't see what you mean about Carrick's passing. In the three different screenshots his passingng is in diffrent areas each time, though if anything most of his passing comes in the middle third.

However to answer your question, yes he does track back if he loses the ball - he is a defensive player after all.

In the Villa game as an example, United dominated possession.
With a Standard Strategy in a game where possession is dominated, Carrick will have had an average position on or slightly behind the half way line, and as a Playmaker sandwiched between two Attacking Duty players, his passes were inevitably going to be mostly played into Villa's half.

His positioning relative to the rest of his team, and relative to Villa will have been representative of the balance of play, so whilst he may have been more positionally advanced than for the Spurs game, it was within the context of the match.

When you look at the Spurs stats, there are more passes in the area between the penalty box and the half way line, and this just reflects the fact that Carrick was almost certainly operating from a deeper location, which will have been a direct result of the different possession profile of the match.

Not the foggiest. Also the Good Player &Team Guide is the place for that sort of thing.

For starters let me set you straight with something; this is not a control based tactic. I use a group of shouts to adjust to the control strategy if the game warrants it, but every match starts with a standard strategy and makes chages accordingly.

I also don't see what you mean about Carrick's passing. In the three different screenshots his passingng is in diffrent areas each time, though if anything most of his passing comes in the middle third.

However to answer your question, yes he does track back if he loses the ball - he is a defensive player after all.

Ahh okay i missunderstood there something with the control.

I mean Carrick has always a good amount of more passes in the opponnents half than in his own. So he sometimes is high up the pitch. Dont you think you need a backup in central midfield when somebody in front loses the ball?

If you think of being on an attack your whole central midfield creates a hole with much space for counter attacks.

AI mean Carrick has always a good amount of more passes in the opponnents half than in his own. So he sometimes is high up the pitch. Dont you think you need a backup in central midfield when somebody in front loses the ball?.......
@RTHerringbone: Therefore I asked for a avg. position screen

If you watch a full game with a DLP (D), you'll see just how positionally aware they are.
They are always behind play, so even if they are high up the pitch in some games, it is because there is no direct immediate threat to them.
Even in cases where the opposition do launch a quick and direct counter, there are still two DCs and probably Evra on hand to help out - it's risk and reward as with all tactics.

Carrick's average positions for the Spurs and Villa games would be interesting.

I mean Carrick has always a good amount of more passes in the opponnents half than in his own. So he sometimes is high up the pitch. Dont you think you need a backup in central midfield when somebody in front loses the ball?

If you think of being on an attack your whole central midfield creates a hole with much space for counter attacks.

Your first statement simply isn't accurate. In the game against Tottenham his passing was quite clearly spread mainly between two areas. One of these was in the space between my penalty box and the halfway line. You are focusing too much on his passing map from the Aston Villa game which we totally dominated and won 8-1. Of course he is going to be dictating things higher up the pitch in a game luke that.

RTHerringbone has explained the other points very well.

Originally Posted by RTHerringbone

Carrick's average positions for the Spurs and Villa games would be interesting.

As promised earlier today, here are the pitch maps from the Aston Villa and Tottenham Hotspur matches. I've also added in the pitch map from the Arsenal game from the towards the top of the page;

In all the pitch maps Carrick is the player in the yellow circle.

Arsenal; The two players, (Ryan Giggs and Phil Jones), who are marked with a cross came on in the final ten minutes of the game.Aston Villa; The player in the square, (Phil Jones), came on at halftime. The triangle, (Danny Welbeck), came on in the 57th minute. And the player marked with a cross, (Robin van Persie), played the final fifteen minutes.Tottenham; The player in the star, (Antonio Valencia), came on after an hour.

As promised earlier today, here are the pitch maps from the Aston Villa and Tottenham Hotspur matches. I've also added in the pitch map from the Arsenal game from the towards the top of the page;

In all the pitch maps Carrick is the player in the yellow circle.

Arsenal; The two players, (Ryan Giggs and Phil Jones), who are marked with a cross came on in the final ten minutes of the game.Aston Villa; The player in the square, (Phil Jones), came on at halftime. The triangle, (Danny Welbeck), came on in the 57th minute. And the player marked with a cross, (Robin van Persie), played the final fifteen minutes.Tottenham; The player in the star, (Antonio Valencia), came on after an hour.

This is very interesting but logical. Against Arsenal, Carrick played deeper, perhaps because of the nature of the game and your team instructions combined with your shouts. Against Villa, he was understandably more advanced, but still your deepest midfielder, because your team was more attacking and dominant and your opposition allowed you more space (I assume Villa sat deeper than Arsenal). And against Tottenham, Carrick was dead on center (and roughly between his positioning vs Arsenal and vs Villa). Given your opponents in each of the three games, Carrick's positioning in each of them seems logical, as well as the positioning of the rest of your players relative to each other and Carrick. Though I'm noticing a little bit more distance between Carrick and your AP/attack in the Arsenal game, than the other two games. Why is that? I also notice more distance between Carrick in your RM/RW in the Tottenham game, compared to the other two games. Again, why is that? Did you use a different player for the RM position?

I'm interested in the difference between Nani and Valencia's average positions in the Spurs game - is it a PPM thing or did you play Valencia in a Support rather than Attack Duty, or even in a different Role to Nani's Winger?

This is very interesting but logical. Against Arsenal, Carrick played deeper, perhaps because of the nature of the game and your team instructions combined with your shouts. Against Villa, he was understandably more advanced, but still your deepest midfielder, because your team was more attacking and dominant and your opposition allowed you more space (I assume Villa sat deeper than Arsenal). And against Tottenham, Carrick was dead on center (and roughly between his positioning vs Arsenal and vs Villa). Given your opponents in each of the three games, Carrick's positioning in each of them seems logical, as well as the positioning of the rest of your players relative to each other and Carrick.

Exactly the point I was trying to get at earlier. It's not that he is constantly stationed and making more passes in the opposition half, rather just relative to how game is being played.

Originally Posted by yonko

Though I'm noticing a little bit more distance between Carrick and your AP/attack in the Arsenal game, than the other two games. Why is that? I also notice more distance between Carrick in your RM/RW in the Tottenham game, compared to the other two games. Again, why is that? Did you use a different player for the RM position?

The honest answer to the first query is that I do not know. I'd imagine the distance between them was because of their shape. With Arsenal playing 4-2-3-1 (two CM's), the AP-Attack may well have been closing the two CM's down more than in say the Villa game when for the most part they fielded two DM's.

As for in the Tottenham game and Carrick's position to the right midfielder, I did change Nani to WM-Attack rather than W-Attack, just to see how it worked. Probably not the wisest game to do it in, but nevermind, we did win after all! I was surprised that this switch resulted in him being that bit further upfield, (and a touch wider), than when been set as a winger.

Originally Posted by RTHerringbone

I'm interested in the difference between Nani and Valencia's average positions in the Spurs game - is it a PPM thing or did you play Valencia in a Support rather than Attack Duty, or even in a different Role to Nani's Winger?

That was purely because we went 2-0 up literally a minute after I brought Valencia on, so I immediately switched from the control shout to the counter attacking shout. The team were naturally deeper, and Valencia's position reflects this.

cheers , I will see how it goes as the first friendly I played I lost 2-1 and I used ask assistant for opposition instructions , I dont use my assistant manager here, instead I use my coach who has good tatical knowledge.

We did not seem to keep a good shape in this game

the second game I did not use any instructions and we won 3-1 and the shape of the team looked better as well as defending.

It could just of been a case of the team jelling with the tactic as it was the first game so maybe I will try opposition tactics again in the next match

cheers , I will see how it goes as the first friendly I played I lost 2-1 and I used ask assistant for opposition instructions , I dont use my assistant manager here, instead I use my coach who has good tatical knowledge.

We did not seem to keep a good shape in this game

the second game I did not use any instructions and we won 3-1 and the shape of the team looked better as well as defending.

It could just of been a case of the team jelling with the tactic as it was the first game so maybe I will try opposition tactics again in the next match

Be wary of opposition instructions they can create gaps and big holes in your side and cause you a lot of issues. So before using them try and learn which players of yours are likely to be dragged out of position etc.

I have been trying to get a 4-4-2 working with my Halifax team in the Blue Square Prem. I won the Blue Square North comfortbaly with a basic 4-4-2. But im having alot of problems now i have been promoted. So this thread interests me alot. I never thought of using a DP and AP in the same team. I have tried it for a couple of games and they seem to work nicely together. Especailly the DP when he has to drop further back and defend.

One quick question, when you go behind in a game and need a goal. What shouts do you use to make your team go more attacking?

cheers , I will see how it goes as the first friendly I played I lost 2-1 and I used ask assistant for opposition instructions , I dont use my assistant manager here, instead I use my coach who has good tatical knowledge.

We did not seem to keep a good shape in this game

the second game I did not use any instructions and we won 3-1 and the shape of the team looked better as well as defending.

It could just of been a case of the team jelling with the tactic as it was the first game so maybe I will try opposition tactics again in the next match

Kinda down to what Cleon said really. Analyse things first and then decide what works best for the players you have.

Originally Posted by Fletchdt

One quick question, when you go behind in a game and need a goal. What shouts do you use to make your team go more attacking?

I don't particularly deviate from the shouts I have set up in the opening post. The only thing I might do is chuck in an "Exploit the flanks" or something like that if the situation warrants it.

If indeed you wonder why, I just find that it's too easy to get bogged down trying to find the right shout(s) for the situation. If you know how you want to play in certain situations, (whether you're under pressure from a short passing side, or struggling to break though an opponent, etc), then I find a group of shouts that work in that situation and stick to them.

As for in the Tottenham game and Carrick's position to the right midfielder, I did change Nani to WM-Attack rather than W-Attack, just to see how it worked. Probably not the wisest game to do it in, but nevermind, we did win after all! I was surprised that this switch resulted in him being that bit further upfield, (and a touch wider), than when been set as a winger.

I also doubt that the change of role would have that much effect. What is the difference between WM-attack and W-attack? I thought you maybe used different players. Did you use Nani in all 3 games?

ive used 4-4-2 for 8 seasons in sweden but mine was all about the wingers and a lump upfront. it is possible to keep the middle well defended with two ball winners set to defend as long as the wide men give them a decent outlet.

I also doubt that the change of role would have that much effect. What is the difference between WM-attack and W-attack? I thought you maybe used different players. Did you use Nani in all 3 games?

What I meant was that I didn't think the change of role would have that much of an effect, but it did appear to do so. I know it wasn't down to the player, as all three times Nani was the starter.

The difference between the W-A and WM-A is explained on the tactics screen. But the most basic difference as far as I can see is that with the winger role there is the encouragment to dribble more than the wide midfielder.

Originally Posted by goat101010

ive used 4-4-2 for 8 seasons in sweden but mine was all about the wingers and a lump upfront. it is possible to keep the middle well defended with two ball winners set to defend as long as the wide men give them a decent outlet.

The problem I have with BWM's is that they go searching for the ball and leave more gaps, so keeping shape isn't easy.

never had that big a problem with that but you could try two cm set to defend. i posted my results from trying matched roles here a while back, works well if the players knows what they are doing

I don't doubt that it works, but doesn't it create really one dimensional football?
If the opposition figure out Plan A, what's Plan B? I'd just aggressively close down your wingers to cut the supply, and end up dominating centrally.

So far this hasn't been working for me , playing as Arsenal , main problem is leaking goals , Played QPR away and draw 3-3 , didn't use shouts or opposition instructions.

Well then that's down to you, not the tactical set up. If you don't react to what you're seeing infront of you and change things using shouts, then why do you think it's going to work automatically?

Also, what players are you using in what roles? Considering you are playing as Arsenal, you obviously have vastly different players to me and I wouldn't have the foggiest about all their strengths and weaknesses, or whether or not they are suited to playing in the roles you have set out for them.

The DLP is a facinating role, but on defend rather than support especially in a 2 man midfield, surely you will go for a player that can actually make a decent tackle, head and still have enough presence of mind to dictate the game. I've got my work cut out in creating my 424 then!

The DLP is a facinating role, but on defend rather than support especially in a 2 man midfield, surely you will go for a player that can actually make a decent tackle, head and still have enough presence of mind to dictate the game. I've got my work cut out in creating my 424 then!

Cheers!

What sort of 4-2-4? I was toying with the idea of a flat 4-2-4 with 4 players in the striker strata.
I decided that it was a stupid idea, but that a 2-2-2-2-2 might be quite cool (2 CDs, 2 WBs, 2 MCs, AML and AMR, 2 STs)

The DLP is a facinating role, but on defend rather than support especially in a 2 man midfield, surely you will go for a player that can actually make a decent tackle, head and still have enough presence of mind to dictate the game. I've got my work cut out in creating my 424 then!

Cheers!

I've managed to acheive a false 4-2-4 using Alex Song as a DLP and Reus and Bernard in CD and CS position as attacking wingers in my online fantasy league, but with them constantly cutting inside and getting forward it plays out exactly as a 4-2-4 offensively, and has the defensive stability of a classic 4-4-2. So i advise this setup over AML/AMR wingers or IFs.
Amazing insight from the OP as it was my inspiration for my tactic!

Arteta? Really? I'd see he's not that great with a few of his attributes for a DLP-Defend. The same goes for Giroud in the DLF-Support role.

As for the rest of the players, where does Cazorla fit into the side? Walcott? Wilshere? Etc? I'm not sure the Arsenal squad fits the mould for a simple 4-4-2.

Well he perhaps is not the greatest but can play the role , check out the Arsenal thread and that is a role he is played on a lot , Giroud is very good on DLF/S I played him there on a save and he got top PL scorer and golden boot.

I wish these examples would be done using teams lower down the tables, but it was a great read and has given me some ideas.

In theory it would work the same with lower league clubs. As much as what the players at the users disposal wouldn't be as good, neither would the players available to the AI.

Originally Posted by gunnermitch

Well he perhaps is not the greatest but can play the role , check out the Arsenal thread and that is a role he is played on a lot , Giroud is very good on DLF/S I played him there on a save and he got top PL scorer and golden boot.

Just because people use a player in a certain role and garner success with that player, doesn't mean he is suited to the role attribute wise.

I'd change Lansbury to a Wide Midfielder - Support as I dont think he's suited to being played as a winger, and as WM-Support he'd join in with the strikers still. Also I'd give one of the Fullbacks the Attack duty as it helps to have players moving between the lines.

I have just finished a full season with Halifax in the Blue Square Prem using the ideas from this tactic. I finished in 1st position with 117 points. Scoring 112 goals and conceding 39. I got to the 4th round of the FA Cup only losing to Norwich at their place after drawing at home. In the previous rounds i beat Blackpool from the Championship who i think were around 5th when i played them and also MK Dons of League 1.

My overall impression of the tactic is that is very good at going forward, creating alot of chances. Defending could be better, but that improved alot nearer the end of the season when i changed my 2 CBs to normal CBs rather than a stopper and a covering one. The DLP and AP seem the key to the whole tactic working. My AP scored 13 goals and 13 assists with an average rating of 7.35. My DLP was rotated alot with 2 other players due to having major fixture congestion. This was because of postponed games, replays in cups and the mid week fixtures the Blue Square Prem likes to have. One thing was common with the 3 DLP i used. They all generally had the highest tackles per a game. Assist wise, they didnt create many chances. But that didnt matter as chances were created from other areas of the pitch.

If anyone wants any screenshots posting, ill be more than happy to put them up. Some i might not be able to do though, as im just about to finish the close season.

A big thank you for tomtuck for sharing his tactic and insight into the game.

I have just finished a full season with Halifax in the Blue Square Prem using the ideas from this tactic. I finished in 1st position with 117 points. Scoring 112 goals and conceding 39. I got to the 4th round of the FA Cup only losing to Norwich at their place after drawing at home. In the previous rounds i beat Blackpool from the Championship who i think were around 5th when i played them and also MK Dons of League 1.

For starters let me congratulate you on a very good season. As a Blue Square side it's a real achievement to beat teams in the Championship and League 1 and then draw with a Premiership side, so your performance in the FA Cup was superb.

Originally Posted by Fletchdt

My overall impression of the tactic is that is very good at going forward, creating alot of chances. Defending could be better, but that improved alot nearer the end of the season when i changed my 2 CBs to normal CBs rather than a stopper and a covering one.

I would say the issues you had defensively early on was to do with giving the CB's the specialist roles. Lower down the football pyramid more generic roles are, in my experience, better to go with. Especially at the back.

Originally Posted by Fletchdt

The DLP and AP seem the key to the whole tactic working. My AP scored 13 goals and 13 assists with an average rating of 7.35. My DLP was rotated alot with 2 other players due to having major fixture congestion. This was because of postponed games, replays in cups and the mid week fixtures the Blue Square Prem likes to have. One thing was common with the 3 DLP i used. They all generally had the highest tackles per a game. Assist wise, they didnt create many chances. But that didnt matter as chances were created from other areas of the pitch.

The DLP, especially on the Defend Duty, isn't going to get many assists as he is the player who starts the attacks raher than being the one playing the final ball. Indeed in two full seasons of my save Michael Carrick has managed just 14 assists in 75 appearances.

Originally Posted by Fletchdt

A big thank you for tomtuck for sharing his tactic and insight into the game.

While you are relying very heavily on carrick, what do you do when he is injured, suspended or in need of a rest? Also do you ever change the roles of any of the players around him and if so, what effect does that have on the way you play?

While you are relying very heavily on carrick, what do you do when he is injured, suspended or in need of a rest? Also do you ever change the roles of any of the players around him and if so, what effect does that have on the way you play?

Well I have pointed out what happens if someone like Kagawa plays ML rather than Young or ore of a winger type. The roles generally remain the same, depending on who is in the team Imay switch the roles of the Full Backs around, but that's about as much as I change.

When Carrick is unavailable, I played Scholes until he retired, but now that he has I slot Nick Powell in. Nothing particularly changes in that case as they have three PPM's the same, with Powell having the additional "runs with ball often".

I'm employing the same style with my Sunderland side and it was going OK (Beat West Ham at home 2-0, beat Swansea away 2-1 and beat Peterborough at home 4-0) but then I got steamrolled by Arsenal; they simply had more possession, more shots and were just better throughout (Giroud scored a hattrick).

Do you think a target man type striker or a front man that isn't suited to AF or DLF could play in your system?

It most certainly works with a targetman. I play pretty much the same tactic, but with a TMs-Poacher duo up front and they both score a lot of goals. You don't really need a target man type in the TM role, but it might help. Some of the times I've changed the TMs to DLFs, because he wasn't much of a jumper/header, he's actually played worse. So targetman it is

No tactic will mask the fact that Arsenal are simply better than Sunderland. The stats imply that they were utterly dominant and their average positions were almost certainly high up the pitch. A strategy of counter would have helped to an extent.

Would go with what RTHerringbone said; Arsenal's players are just better than Sunderlands.

Having said that, I have one issue inparticular; Lee Cattermole is not, and will never be, a Deep Lying Playmaker. So straight away you have a problem in the middle of the park.

This isn't a super tactic that automatically works - you can't just plonk it on any group of players and expect it to do so. You have t have the players that are suited to the roles, and in Lee Cattermole, he is not suited to any role in that you have.

I'm also not convinced that either of your strikers are suited to the Deep Lying Forward role.

Would go with what RTHerringbone said; Arsenal's players are just better than Sunderlands.

Having said that, I have one issue inparticular; Lee Cattermole is not, and will never be, a Deep Lying Playmaker. So straight away you have a problem in the middle of the park.

This isn't a super tactic that automatically works - you can't just plonk it on any group of players and expect it to do so. You have t have the players that are suited to the roles, and in Lee Cattermole, he is not suited to any role in that you have.

I'm also not convinced that either of your strikers are suited to the Deep Lying Forward role.

Yeah, think I'll have to adjust my midfield a bit. It's January in my game now and I'm 9th. Any ideas who I could get to replace the two CMs? Also, Fletcher is banging the goals in (13 goals 5 assists in 20 appearances in the league) but Graham is absolutely dire.

Yeah, think I'll have to adjust my midfield a bit. It's January in my game now and I'm 9th. Any ideas who I could get to replace the two CMs? Also, Fletcher is banging the goals in (13 goals 5 assists in 20 appearances in the league) but Graham is absolutely dire.

Not really sure about CM's, should would think Vaughan may be alright for the DLP-Defend role?

Finished 9th at the end of the season. Graham finally started scoring but we left it too late in the season to start playing or we really could've pushed on. Some of the standout players stats (League games only):

With regards to the person who posted the Sunderland tactic, you may also want to consider swapping your central midfield's over. Currently you have both the 'left winger' & 'left central midfielder' on 'attack' were they to lose the ball up field there you could maybe left vulnerable to a counter attack. Whereas having the 'DLP' on the left side, he would cover the space being vacated by the left winger who's bombing forward down the wing.

Man I am really looking forward to reading this thread thoroughly, unfortunately at work right now. Thanks for this tomtuck, will give you some feedback once I have worked my way through it. Pretty much exactly the thread I was looking for

Interesting thread, I'm gonna start a new season and I probably will try to emulate this and see how far it can bring me. One question, since I don't have Carrick anymore what kind of attribute should I look when searching for his replacement?

If so use the filter and dial in attributes that are similar to Carrick's.

But basically, a decent DLP needs, good to high attributes in: Creativity, Passing, Positioning, Anticipation, Composure, Technique, Teamwork, Stamina, First Touch, Marking, the list goes on, also Carrick's two footedness is another benefit of his that is worth remembering, so DLP's need to be pretty complete players.

I mean that this thread are heavily focused on carrick as DLP. What I want to know is when I'm searching for replacement what kind of attribute that I must focused on? It is more defensive or more "playmaker"?

In a perfect world you could get somebody who is very good at both, there are players like that, just hard to find, and there is an occasional regen of that kind of quality.

But it depends on your system: Pirlo is a DLP who plays in the defensive midfield area and cannot defend very well, whereas somebody like Makelele, was a defensive beast, as well as having very very underrated playmaking qualities (as everybody found out when Fulham under Mark Hughes, I think it was, pressed high up and closed him down constantly, and Fulham got a shock win) he always brought the ball out of the defense and played it on appropriately.

Personally, I always strive for a balance of the two, with a slight personal preference towards the defensive, but only because I'm the kind of manager who has signed two quality regen defensive DM/DLP's and doesn't put out a teamsheet without solid defensive cover.

In that respect, I'm probably still stuck in the mid-noughties Rafa-Mourinho battle era, but when Edgar Davids is your favourite player, well... you are always going to have a thing for DMs.

Man I am really looking forward to reading this thread thoroughly, unfortunately at work right now. Thanks for this tomtuck, will give you some feedback once I have worked my way through it. Pretty much exactly the thread I was looking for

I hope the thread helps you in any way possible, and I look forward to your thoughts.

Originally Posted by dyne

Interesting thread, I'm gonna start a new season and I probably will try to emulate this and see how far it can bring me. One question, since I don't have Carrick anymore what kind of attribute should I look when searching for his replacement?

Originally Posted by dyne

I mean that this thread are heavily focused on carrick as DLP. What I want to know is when I'm searching for replacement what kind of attribute that I must focused on? It is more defensive or more "playmaker"?

The Thread isn't focused on Carrick. It is focused on the role of Deeplying Playmaker - Defend. Carrick just happened to be the player I used in the role at the time.

To see what attributes a player needs for any role, click on the "Highlight Key Attributes For Role" on the right hand side of the screen, which is located next to the tick box that reads "Show Recent Attribbute Changes". A drop down menu will appear, and from there you can find any role you want and it will highlight the attributes as such;

Followed this thread for a while, and after never being a fan of 4-4-2 I might have to give it a try. Carrick really is perfect for the DLP - Defend role and the formation itself is perfect for United.

If I can find a suitable partner for Cisse in my Newcastle save then I might have to give it a go. I might just wait for Campbell to develop tbh.

Retrodude, quick critique, Campbell and Cisse sounds like a hell of alot of poacher/advanced forward type players without a lot of creativity, good front twos require balance, think Bergkamp and Henry, creative genius who could score, plus sublime goalscorrer who could create, now that's balance.

The Thread isn't focused on Carrick. It is focused on the role of Deeplying Playmaker - Defend. Carrick just happened to be the player I used in the role at the time.

To see what attributes a player needs for any role, click on the "Highlight Key Attributes For Role" on the right hand side of the screen, which is located next to the tick box that reads "Show Recent Attribbute Changes". A drop down menu will appear, and from there you can find any role you want and it will highlight the attributes as such;

Sorry about the misunderstanding. I thought that you choose United to test the 4-4-2 with DLP (d) because you see what Carrick can do (pick a club-> check players->pick tactic), but it seem the other way around you pick a club-> pick a tactic ->check player (am I right?) I never use DLP in defense role, mostly I left it to the DM so I'm still unsure on what must I focused on the DLP (d). He have both playmaking and defense role which have separate attribute set.

I decide to try using 4-4-2 with Sandro as the DLP (d). It will be different because the others player that I play in the DLP role are more supporting (Xabi and Honda) so we'll see how it will affect my saves.

Retrodude, quick critique, Campbell and Cisse sounds like a hell of alot of poacher/advanced forward type players without a lot of creativity, good front twos require balance, think Bergkamp and Henry, creative genius who could score, plus sublime goalscorrer who could create, now that's balance.

Agreed. It won't ever happen because Cisse doesn't impress me enough. Just something about him that I don't like. (I do play with a lone striker though which is probably why he struggles) If I was to fully commit to this type of tactic then I would definitely look to bring in a creative forward, someone like Isco (had fun with playing him up front before) just to create for others.

Sorry about the misunderstanding. I thought that you choose United to test the 4-4-2 with DLP (d) because you see what Carrick can do (pick a club-> check players->pick tactic), but it seem the other way around you pick a club-> pick a tactic ->check player (am I right?) I never use DLP in defense role, mostly I left it to the DM so I'm still unsure on what must I focused on the DLP (d). He have both playmaking and defense role which have separate attribute set.

I decide to try using 4-4-2 with Sandro as the DLP (d). It will be different because the others player that I play in the DLP role are more supporting (Xabi and Honda) so we'll see how it will affect my saves.

No need to apologise, I was just clarifying the situation.

However, I have already shown you how you can find out what attributes to focus on for the role in my last post.

I thinking to try this in my Juve save, but in other formation. I don't have players to suit 442 flat. Pirlo is natural DLP-Def, Pogba maybe a backup, Vida and Marchisio for me CM-Support or Attack. Vucinic as K10 or Complete Forward i think. Any suggestion how to apply this style of play in Juve, maybe on 352 formation?

I thinking to try this in my Juve save, but in other formation. I don't have players to suit 442 flat. Pirlo is natural DLP-Def, Pogba maybe a backup, Vida and Marchisio for me CM-Support or Attack. Vucinic as K10 or Complete Forward i think. Any suggestion how to apply this style of play in Juve, maybe on 352 formation?

Well the thread is about the 4-4-2 formation and how a DLP-Defend works in that system. So no, I don't have any thoughts whatsoever about a 3-5-2 formation.

I thinking to try this in my Juve save, but in other formation. I don't have players to suit 442 flat. Pirlo is natural DLP-Def, Pogba maybe a backup, Vida and Marchisio for me CM-Support or Attack. Vucinic as K10 or Complete Forward i think. Any suggestion how to apply this style of play in Juve, maybe on 352 formation?

There is a whole thread on the forum about the 3-5-2 with some very good tips in there - here.

Odd question, but on the team selection page, how do you get it to show the 'last 5 games average rating' stat?

He copes pretty well despite low numbers in a few of the ten key areas for the DLP-Defend. For example, his Positioning attribute is still only 10. However, he's still only 21 and a work in progress.

The same goes for Nick Powell who I play in the role primarily. He is also still relatively young though, (only turned 22 in the last six months), and is still improving in a couple of areas. He does very well in the role though and is a vital part of the side. He's my "go to" guy for the big games.

He copes pretty well despite low numbers in a few of the ten key areas for the DLP-Defend. For example, his Positioning attribute is still only 10. However, he's still only 21 and a work in progress.

The same goes for Nick Powell who I play in the role primarily. He is also still relatively young though, (only turned 22 in the last six months), and is still improving in a couple of areas. He does very well in the role though and is a vital part of the side. He's my "go to" guy for the big games.

Yeah my scouts rate both Powell and Ward-Prowse very, very highly. (I'm Newcastle) but unfortunately neither of them would be cheap even though I am in January of my first season. I've wanted Ward-Prowse on every single save I've played but never got him so this might have to be the save where I break the bank to sign him.

I've never looked at Powell though until this save but my scout rates him, so I might have to keep an eye on him as I can't see the AI developing him / giving him game time.