Strategic Cruise Missiles: Discussion

There is no practical difference between a cruise missile with a flight range of more than 500km and a UAV with a flight range of more than 500km like Predator... especially an armed UAV like a UCAV.

Of course the sizes involved the R-500 could easily have a reduce conventional payload and terminal guidance and a range of more than 5,500km and therefore still comply with the INF treaty...

_________________“The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

Militarov wrote:"There have been two Russian cruise missiles in the news lately. One is a ground-launched cruise missile that apparently violates the 1987 Intermediate Range Nuclear Forces Treaty, the other is a sea-launched cruise missile that Russia recently fired against targets in Syria. Both of these cruise missiles are made by the same firm, Novator. I have a sneaking suspicion that they are closely related. In fact, I bet they look exactly alike. Here is my best effort at a hypothesis. It is speculation, since the United States is not releasing any information about the missile that violates the INF treaty. But I think we can make an educated guess or two.

Bill Gertz (I know!) claimed that Russia had, on September 2, conducted another test of the ground-launched cruise missile that the United States claims violatesthe 1987 INF Treaty. Gertz indicated that the US designation is the “SSC-X-8.” I believe this missile is designated 9M729. There was a Russian announcement by GosNIIP, the design bureau that builds guidance for cruise missiles, that Russia completed state acceptance trials of the “ground-based system 9M728, 9M729 and its modernized version.” We know the 9M728 is the Iskander cruise missile. (It is also called the R500 — the name of the missile is different from its GRAU number.) The way Russian GRAU numbers work is formulaic — the 9M means it is an Army missile. That means the 9M729 is also for Iskander or a new launcher that we have yet to see. Let’s presume that the 9M728 is a reduced-range version of the 9M729 — an INF-compliant version of its bigger brother. That’s not hard to believe — Russian officials have long said they could extend the range of the cruise missile for Iskander beyond 500 km with little difficulty; their confidence was probably rooted in some evidence.

Now, this is where it gets tricky. We know the Russians make an export version of the Kalibr family missiles, which they call Klub. So, Klub missiles are reduced range versions of the Kalibr systems that can be exported without violating the MTCR. (You may recall they are marketed with the awesome video about how great it is to hide cruise missiles in shipping containers.) So, for example, the 3M14E (e is for export) Klub is a reduced range (~300 km) version of the 3M14 Kalibr that Russia used to strike Syria (2,000 km). It is hard to know how Russia reduced the range, but one option is just to reduce the size of the fuel tank. It is possible that the Kalibr and Klub versions are externally identical, although we don’t know that for certain.

If the 9M728/R500 deployed with Iskander (~500 km range) is a reduced range version of the 9M729 (~2000 km), and if the 3M14E is a reduced range version of the 3M14, what does it say that the reduced range versions appear to be identical? That would strongly imply, to me anyway, that the 9M729 and the 3M14 are probably externally identical. We are looking at a single family of missiles. One benefit of concluding the the 3m14 and the 9M279 are likely similar is that we can infer something about the range of one based on the other. The United States has not offered a public assessment of the GLCM range, but the Russians have described the range of the 3m14 (SS-N-30A) as 2000-2500 km. That would imply a similar range for the 9M729 (SSC-X-, depending on the type of warhead."

I guess this goes under Ground force thread

Full article: http://lewis.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/7816/russian-cruise-missiles-revisited

"Well, what about it? Very much all we know about 9M729 comes from a brief mention in a report of GosNIIP, a design bureau that builds guidance for cruise missiles (the site has been taken down for redesign). According to the report, Russia completed state acceptance trials of the "ground-based system 9M728, 9M729 and its modernized version." We know that 9M728 is a cruise missile developed as part of the Iskander project (see "Kamnev" on this page; as always, thanks to Alexander for the links). It appears that it is the missile usually referred to as R-500, which has been now deployed with Iskander-M systems.

It's very reasonable to suggest that 9M729 is a follow-on to 9M728, also to be deployed as part of the ground-based Iskander-M. If so, it appear to be a very good candidate for the role of the INF non-compliance culprit. The only thing I would note here that since it was tested together with 9M728, it's unlikely to be a follow-on. A long-range version with a light (presumably nuclear) payload would be one possibility. But not the only one."

Militarov wrote:"There have been two Russian cruise missiles in the news lately. One is a ground-launched cruise missile that apparently violates the 1987 Intermediate Range Nuclear Forces Treaty, the other is a sea-launched cruise missile that Russia recently fired against targets in Syria. Both of these cruise missiles are made by the same firm, Novator. I have a sneaking suspicion that they are closely related. In fact, I bet they look exactly alike. Here is my best effort at a hypothesis. It is speculation, since the United States is not releasing any information about the missile that violates the INF treaty. But I think we can make an educated guess or two.

Bill Gertz (I know!) claimed that Russia had, on September 2, conducted another test of the ground-launched cruise missile that the United States claims violatesthe 1987 INF Treaty. Gertz indicated that the US designation is the “SSC-X-8.” I believe this missile is designated 9M729. There was a Russian announcement by GosNIIP, the design bureau that builds guidance for cruise missiles, that Russia completed state acceptance trials of the “ground-based system 9M728, 9M729 and its modernized version.” We know the 9M728 is the Iskander cruise missile. (It is also called the R500 — the name of the missile is different from its GRAU number.) The way Russian GRAU numbers work is formulaic — the 9M means it is an Army missile. That means the 9M729 is also for Iskander or a new launcher that we have yet to see. Let’s presume that the 9M728 is a reduced-range version of the 9M729 — an INF-compliant version of its bigger brother. That’s not hard to believe — Russian officials have long said they could extend the range of the cruise missile for Iskander beyond 500 km with little difficulty; their confidence was probably rooted in some evidence.

Now, this is where it gets tricky. We know the Russians make an export version of the Kalibr family missiles, which they call Klub. So, Klub missiles are reduced range versions of the Kalibr systems that can be exported without violating the MTCR. (You may recall they are marketed with the awesome video about how great it is to hide cruise missiles in shipping containers.) So, for example, the 3M14E (e is for export) Klub is a reduced range (~300 km) version of the 3M14 Kalibr that Russia used to strike Syria (2,000 km). It is hard to know how Russia reduced the range, but one option is just to reduce the size of the fuel tank. It is possible that the Kalibr and Klub versions are externally identical, although we don’t know that for certain.

If the 9M728/R500 deployed with Iskander (~500 km range) is a reduced range version of the 9M729 (~2000 km), and if the 3M14E is a reduced range version of the 3M14, what does it say that the reduced range versions appear to be identical? That would strongly imply, to me anyway, that the 9M729 and the 3M14 are probably externally identical. We are looking at a single family of missiles. One benefit of concluding the the 3m14 and the 9M279 are likely similar is that we can infer something about the range of one based on the other. The United States has not offered a public assessment of the GLCM range, but the Russians have described the range of the 3m14 (SS-N-30A) as 2000-2500 km. That would imply a similar range for the 9M729 (SSC-X-, depending on the type of warhead."

I guess this goes under Ground force thread

Full article: http://lewis.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/7816/russian-cruise-missiles-revisited

"Well, what about it? Very much all we know about 9M729 comes from a brief mention in a report of GosNIIP, a design bureau that builds guidance for cruise missiles (the site has been taken down for redesign). According to the report, Russia completed state acceptance trials of the "ground-based system 9M728, 9M729 and its modernized version." We know that 9M728 is a cruise missile developed as part of the Iskander project (see "Kamnev" on this page; as always, thanks to Alexander for the links). It appears that it is the missile usually referred to as R-500, which has been now deployed with Iskander-M systems.

It's very reasonable to suggest that 9M729 is a follow-on to 9M728, also to be deployed as part of the ground-based Iskander-M. If so, it appear to be a very good candidate for the role of the INF non-compliance culprit. The only thing I would note here that since it was tested together with 9M728, it's unlikely to be a follow-on. A long-range version with a light (presumably nuclear) payload would be one possibility. But not the only one."

Militarov wrote:"There have been two Russian cruise missiles in the news lately. One is a ground-launched cruise missile that apparently violates the 1987 Intermediate Range Nuclear Forces Treaty, the other is a sea-launched cruise missile that Russia recently fired against targets in Syria. Both of these cruise missiles are made by the same firm, Novator. I have a sneaking suspicion that they are closely related. In fact, I bet they look exactly alike. Here is my best effort at a hypothesis. It is speculation, since the United States is not releasing any information about the missile that violates the INF treaty. But I think we can make an educated guess or two.

Bill Gertz (I know!) claimed that Russia had, on September 2, conducted another test of the ground-launched cruise missile that the United States claims violatesthe 1987 INF Treaty. Gertz indicated that the US designation is the “SSC-X-8.” I believe this missile is designated 9M729. There was a Russian announcement by GosNIIP, the design bureau that builds guidance for cruise missiles, that Russia completed state acceptance trials of the “ground-based system 9M728, 9M729 and its modernized version.” We know the 9M728 is the Iskander cruise missile. (It is also called the R500 — the name of the missile is different from its GRAU number.) The way Russian GRAU numbers work is formulaic — the 9M means it is an Army missile. That means the 9M729 is also for Iskander or a new launcher that we have yet to see. Let’s presume that the 9M728 is a reduced-range version of the 9M729 — an INF-compliant version of its bigger brother. That’s not hard to believe — Russian officials have long said they could extend the range of the cruise missile for Iskander beyond 500 km with little difficulty; their confidence was probably rooted in some evidence.

Now, this is where it gets tricky. We know the Russians make an export version of the Kalibr family missiles, which they call Klub. So, Klub missiles are reduced range versions of the Kalibr systems that can be exported without violating the MTCR. (You may recall they are marketed with the awesome video about how great it is to hide cruise missiles in shipping containers.) So, for example, the 3M14E (e is for export) Klub is a reduced range (~300 km) version of the 3M14 Kalibr that Russia used to strike Syria (2,000 km). It is hard to know how Russia reduced the range, but one option is just to reduce the size of the fuel tank. It is possible that the Kalibr and Klub versions are externally identical, although we don’t know that for certain.

If the 9M728/R500 deployed with Iskander (~500 km range) is a reduced range version of the 9M729 (~2000 km), and if the 3M14E is a reduced range version of the 3M14, what does it say that the reduced range versions appear to be identical? That would strongly imply, to me anyway, that the 9M729 and the 3M14 are probably externally identical. We are looking at a single family of missiles. One benefit of concluding the the 3m14 and the 9M279 are likely similar is that we can infer something about the range of one based on the other. The United States has not offered a public assessment of the GLCM range, but the Russians have described the range of the 3m14 (SS-N-30A) as 2000-2500 km. That would imply a similar range for the 9M729 (SSC-X-, depending on the type of warhead."

I guess this goes under Ground force thread

Full article: http://lewis.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/7816/russian-cruise-missiles-revisited

"Well, what about it? Very much all we know about 9M729 comes from a brief mention in a report of GosNIIP, a design bureau that builds guidance for cruise missiles (the site has been taken down for redesign). According to the report, Russia completed state acceptance trials of the "ground-based system 9M728, 9M729 and its modernized version." We know that 9M728 is a cruise missile developed as part of the Iskander project (see "Kamnev" on this page; as always, thanks to Alexander for the links). It appears that it is the missile usually referred to as R-500, which has been now deployed with Iskander-M systems.

It's very reasonable to suggest that 9M729 is a follow-on to 9M728, also to be deployed as part of the ground-based Iskander-M. If so, it appear to be a very good candidate for the role of the INF non-compliance culprit. The only thing I would note here that since it was tested together with 9M728, it's unlikely to be a follow-on. A long-range version with a light (presumably nuclear) payload would be one possibility. But not the only one."

I really do hate it when people, especially those purporting to be military analysts, get their damn Iskander-Ms and Iskander-Ks mixed up.

Partially due to Russian designations i suppose. Also suddenly comes R-500/Iskander K, but there is already Iskander-M and E, people lose it

Can't be that hard, the Iskander-M/E is a ballistic missile system and has nothing to do with all this huu-haa about treaty violations (it is subject to the INF treaty too but no-one suspects it of violating it).

The only thing it shares in common with the Iskander-K is its designation and the chassis.

Sivkov: cruise missiles X-101 could be used for the first time in Syria

Russian combat aircraft to Syria for the first time can use the new super-powerful vacuum bomb, weighing about 40 tons, also the president of the Academy of Geopolitical Problems, Konstantin Sivkov.

MOSCOW, November 18 - RIA Novosti. The newest cruise missiles X-101, never before used in combat may have been involved in the air strikes inflicted on the eve of the air and space forces of the Russian Federation on the positions "of the Islamic state" in Syria, said RIA Novosti Wednesday, the president of the Academy of Geopolitical Problems, Konstantin Sivkov.

He was commenting on reports by some media, according to which the Russian strategic bombers Tu-95MS, involved in the operation of the RF videoconferencing in Syria from November 17, allegedly fired on the positions of the IG cruise missiles X-101, which was their first combat use in history.

"Most likely, all was well. On the one hand, it is an act of intimidation LIH, and the other - testing new weapons. It is one thing - to make education one or two launches of missiles, and the other - its combat use," - said Sivkov.

The interviewee noted that the X-101 missile could be launched from the territory of Russia, as its range of defeat is more than 5000 kilometers, twice the range of the missile, "Caliber", launched by IG from the Caspian Sea. However, to date, ground launchers for such missiles there.

"The launch of this missile can be carried out with at least a height of 3 thousand meters, maximum - 12 thousand meters, provided that the aircraft is moving at a speed of 900 kilometers per hour. In contrast to the land- and sea-based at the X-101 is not the start of the engine, so it should be to drop from the air, so that it already had an initial speed "- said the expert.

According Sivkova during operation videoconferencing in Syria can be tested, and other advanced weaponry.

"I think that for the first time in Syria, can be used a new heavy-duty vacuum bomb, weighing about 40 tons with an explosive capacity of about 400 tons of TNT. There may also be tested in action guided aerial bombs caliber big weight of 1.5 tons," - he said.

According to open sources, advanced cruise missiles X-101/102, which differ from each other warhead (non-nuclear and nuclear respectively) were developed by Engineering Design Bureau "Raduga" in the period of 1995-2013 years. The missile has a launch weight of 2.4 tons, range of lesion - 5500 kilometers. Currently, they are mass-produced for strategic missile-carrying bomber Tu-95MS.

Project Canada wrote:meanwhile, russophobes in hysterical joy over the failure of one russian cruise missile (article comment section) I wonder if this is a new cruise missile in development

Russian cruise missile goes astray, lands near village

Why do you consistently post garbage? All you are doing is posting links to: "look what these people say about Russians. They are stupid according to these people!!!" No one cares. Stop flooding this forums with garbage yahoo news.

1 Failed? Oh noes! We can point to countless western failures. But that isn't the point of the forums and isn't the point of the discussion about what westerners think.

The rest is trash. We already know from official sources that 15% of US cruise missiles failed in 1999 during the NATOgang rape of Serbia. Yet one never hears about any test failures in the USA. This suggests testing in remote regions.Russia has plenty of remote regions, yet we are to believe that it sends its test missiles near villages. Obvious BS.If someone is going to claim that this missile veered off course for 100s of kms I will call BS again. The missile would crash long before it could get that far.

There was a test crash, it was on Tass. It hit near a city and claimed it damaged a house. But afterwards the government said no actual damage occured and investigation ongoing for failure. We know that 2 failed over over 30 launched in Syria so not unheard of. And the results are better than NATO. Thats to say, not much more info on it.

The rest is trash. We already know from official sources that 15% of US cruise missiles failed in 1999 during the NATOgang rape of Serbia. Yet one never hears about any test failures in the USA. This suggests testing in remote regions.Russia has plenty of remote regions, yet we are to believe that it sends its test missiles near villages. Obvious BS.If someone is going to claim that this missile veered off course for 100s of kms I will call BS again. The missile would crash long before it could get that far.

So the Yahoo story is BS.

I know a Bosnian lad, He lives in Sarajevo. Just outside his village there was a failed cruise missile. I met him when I was in Albania, He also told about some NATO bombs landing on civilian areas on purpose. If you ask me I say Russian cruise missiles are more reliable then any out there.

sepheronx wrote:There was a test crash, it was on Tass. It hit near a city and claimed it damaged a house. But afterwards the government said no actual damage occured and investigation ongoing for failure. We know that 2 failed over over 30 launched in Syria so not unheard of. And the results are better than NATO. Thats to say, not much more info on it.

I stand corrected, the idiots in charge of this testing program need to be fired. They have no respect for public safety and forRussia's image.

sepheronx wrote:There was a test crash, it was on Tass. It hit near a city and claimed it damaged a house. But afterwards the government said no actual damage occured and investigation ongoing for failure. We know that 2 failed over over 30 launched in Syria so not unheard of. And the results are better than NATO. Thats to say, not much more info on it.

I stand corrected, the idiots in charge of this testing program need to be fired. They have no respect for public safety and forRussia's image.

The testing area is apparently known. Whatever happened with the cruise missile is probably guidance went wacky. This shit does happen and good thing it does as it will determin what caused it. Russia is in middle of import substitution, especially electronics so this will help them in long run (I am certain that all missiles components are domestic). Although, I agree there needs to be better areas to do this.

A new propellant could be used in the engines of hypersonic strategic cruise missiles to increase their range by up to 300 kilometers (185 miles), Russian Deputy Defense Minister Dmitry Bulgakov said Tuesday.

"Over the past few years, Decylin-M fuel, which enables the range of strategic cruise missiles to be increased by 250-300 kilometers, began to be used by the Russian Armed Forces," Bulgakov told reporters.

Cruise missiles are widely used in Russia's anti-terrorist campaign in Syria, which is being conducted at Damascus' request. On October 7, the first launch of Kalibr cruise missiles (NATO reporting name SS-N-27 "Sizzler"), used in the Syrian air campaign, was conducted from the Caspian Sea. All the missiles reached their targets, according to the Russian Defense Ministry.

How will Kh-101, having a 5000 km range fare against moving targets, like ships. Against a fixed target, guidance is easy and we've seen they tested it out in Syria. Don't you think Guidance will be the problem with this kind of missiles against moving targets?

It has some potential against moving targets because it has terminal homing.

If it has sensors that detect enemy radar emissions and an IR sensor that can detect heat signatures then it could be used against moving targets but the real problem is that the time it takes to travel 5,000km means even a slow moving target can move a great distance.

Options including flying at medium height scanning large areas with IR and passive radar sensor to find target... or a search pattern based on the last known location of the target to allow the target to be reacquired when the missile gets there.

would be less of an issue for a much faster missile like a hypersonic weapon.

_________________“The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

Russia Carries Out Training Launch of Cruise Missile From Iskander-M System

The missile brigade of the Russia's Central Military District carried out a combat launch of a cruise missile from the operational and tactical Iskander-M missile system, according to official statement.

MOSCOW (Sputnik) — Russia carried out a combat training launch on Friday of a high power cruise missile from Iskander-M ballistic missile systems in the country’s southwest, the defense ministry announced.

"The missile brigade of the Central Military District carried out a combat launch of a cruise missile from the operational and tactical Iskander-M missile system against a command center of a simulated enemy some 200 kilometers [124 miles] away," the statement reads.

The missile, manufactured using technologies to reduce radar visibility, was not detected by the simulated enemy’s electronic warfare equipment and successfully hit its target.

According to the statement, the altitude of the main part of the flight was around 40-50 kilometers.

The 9K720 Iskander-M entered into service in 2006 to replace the OTR-23 Oka missile system, retired following the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty between the United States and the Soviet Union.

The Iskander is characterized by its high mobility and maneuverability, as it takes just 20 minutes to put the system into operational readiness.

MOSCOW, November 18. /TASS/. Russia’s Kh-101 cruise missiles, which a Tupolev-95MSM bomber used against terrorists in Syria for the first time on Thursday, have a circular error probable of no more than seven meters, the editor-in-chief of the Arsenal Otechestva (Arsenal of the Fartherland) magazine, Viktor Murakhovsky told TASS.