I believe Magpul is currently looking on clarity from the proper agency (BATF? DOJ?) as to what the AFG is (or isn't?) classified as... until then, I would not mess with it. I like mine on my feature-full rifle though!

Well, technique, I went ahead and bought the Magpul AFG on your words so i'll give it a review upon arrival. I couldn't pass up AIMsurplus.com's sale of 32 bucks and a penny shipping. If I don't like it there will be one up in the classifieds soon but i'm putting it on a featureless build so we'll see if it gets me in trouble or not!

A "pistol grip" is pretty well defined in the CA law, and the law forbids a "forward pistol grip", but there is no extra definition for a "forward" pistol grip. Pistol grips do not have "thumbholes" in them so not sure how that is a factor. Yes, it is advertised as a "grip" but so is the TangoDown Rail Grip, which is just a rail panel that offers a textured and comfortable area to rest your hand on (sound familiar?). Also you can get a "pistol style grasp" around pretty much anything you place on a rail panel - a flashlight mount, a scope ring, a bipod leg. It's clearly not a "pistol grip" in my opinion, however.

I guess the debate will continue, but I think the fact that it is designed to rest only your fingers on it, with your thumb up on the handguard also helps in clarifying it as a NON-pistol grip - same as a MonsterMan grip in my opinion.

The web of your hand is ABOVE the exposed portion of the trigger....so the definition of a pistol style grasp doesn't fit....and your trigger hand is nowhere near the grip.....but it does "allow" for a pistol-like grip....

Tech has it mounted right. The hand stop part faces the business end wich I'm assuming you're calling the "Long" end. He just mounted it a little forward of the carbine rail to basically hold as much gun as he can. Often while using the thumb break technique and using a carbine rail "grabbing as much gun as you can" you will slip you're hand on the gas block/FSB and burn the crap out of you're self. He has it set up to prevent this, The grip is geared more towards people that use this type of grip. I fondled one and it truly is a improvement on the ergo's of gripping the foreguard and I didn't have much trouble with slipping even while pounding out a couple hundred rounds in Full auto on a patrol carbine "M16"

A "pistol grip" is pretty well defined in the CA law, and the law forbids a "forward pistol grip", but there is no extra definition for a "forward" pistol grip. Pistol grips do not have "thumbholes" in them so not sure how that is a factor. Yes, it is advertised as a "grip" but so is the TangoDown Rail Grip, which is just a rail panel that offers a textured and comfortable area to rest your hand on (sound familiar?). Also you can get a "pistol style grasp" around pretty much anything you place on a rail panel - a flashlight mount, a scope ring, a bipod leg. It's clearly not a "pistol grip" in my opinion, however.

I guess the debate will continue, but I think the fact that it is designed to rest only your fingers on it, with your thumb up on the handguard also helps in clarifying it as a NON-pistol grip - same as a MonsterMan grip in my opinion.

this is the exact logic I subscribe to and it seems totally clear to me

BUT, before I put it on my AR pistol, I would love to see something more concrete from those with bigger brains or from Magpul

Featureless in CA is good to go in my book. A pistol grip has to allow for a PG style grab with the web of the hand BELOW the action. The AFG does not allow this, even if your hands were HUGE, grasping it ala VFG style would still have the web of your hand above the action.

Of course this is all relating to CA law, which Magpul will most likely not give anyone a firm answer as DOJ would never give them a firm answer.

The only firm answer we might get is from ATF in regards to this being used on a Pistol, in which case it can than be argued that if ATF does not considered a VFg than it is also not a VFG in CA. So right now I'd say it's g2g on CA featureless but not on Pistols.

Featureless in CA is good to go in my book. A pistol grip has to allow for a PG style grab with the web of the hand BELOW the action. The AFG does not allow this, even if your hands were HUGE, grasping it ala VFG style would still have the web of your hand above the action.

Of course this is all relating to CA law, which Magpul will most likely not give anyone a firm answer as DOJ would never give them a firm answer.

The only firm answer we might get is from ATF in regards to this being used on a Pistol, in which case it can than be argued that if ATF does not considered a VFg than it is also not a VFG in CA. So right now I'd say it's g2g on CA featureless but not on Pistols.

Except that ATF definitions are often different than CADOJ definitions.

I still agree that it's G2G (featureless), but I wouldn't trust that the CADOJ would follow suit with whatever the ATF decides.

A "pistol grip" is pretty well defined in the CA law, and the law forbids a "forward pistol grip", but there is no extra definition for a "forward" pistol grip.

Actually forward pistol grip is defined.

Quote:

Cal. Admin. Code tit. 11, § 5469
The following definitions apply to terms used in the identification of assault weapons pursuant to Penal Code section 12276.1:
(c) "forward pistol grip" means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp forward of the trigger.

(d) "pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon" means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing.

And this is where bobfried makes a faulty leap of logic when he said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobfried

Featureless in CA is good to go in my book. A pistol grip has to allow for a PG style grab with the web of the hand BELOW the action. The AFG does not allow this, even if your hands were HUGE, grasping it ala VFG style would still have the web of your hand above the action.

(c) above defines forward pistol grip as allowing a pistol style grasp forward of the trigger. It says NOTHING that includes the definition of a "pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon" from part (d).

So there's a disconnect. While it's logical that (c) would include (d), it doesn't. So a forward pistol grip is not bound by the web of the hand below the action definition.

(c) just states if you can get a pistol style grasp on a GRIP mounted in front of the trigger, then it's a forward pistol grip. It specifies "grip", so things like sling mounts, bipods, light mounts are not included.

The AFG is marketed and used as a grip.

I would not use one on a featureless build or a pistol.

Like it or not, this is a pistol style grasp using this grip:

__________________"On bended knee is no way to be free." - Eddie Vedder, "Guaranteed"

"Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks." -Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to his nephew Peter Carr dated August 19, 1785

(c) above defines forward pistol grip as allowing a pistol style grasp forward of the trigger. It says NOTHING that includes the definition of a "pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon" from part (d).

So there's a disconnect. While it's logical that (c) would include (d), it doesn't. So a forward pistol grip is not bound by the web of the hand below the action definition.

(c) just states if you can get a pistol style grasp on a GRIP mounted in front of the trigger, then it's a forward pistol grip. It specifies "grip", so things like sling mounts, bipods, light mounts are not included.

Honestly hate being the wet blanket as the AFG looks good and I'm a big proponent of featureless rifles.

Further clarifying the relationship of (c) and (d), since (c) comes before (d) and makes no mention of (d)'s definitions, it's not bound by (d). (sounds like Abbot/Costello "Who's on First?" right? LOL).

And since "grip" is an important element of (c), it greenlights the KAC handstop on a featureless build. Not only is it not used or marketed as any form of grip (nor can you even remotely hold the rifle with it in any form of a pistol style grasp), it's a sling mount too. There's your GTG item on a featureless build, that's very defensible in court.

The AFG...not so much.

__________________"On bended knee is no way to be free." - Eddie Vedder, "Guaranteed"

"Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks." -Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to his nephew Peter Carr dated August 19, 1785

Honestly hate being the wet blanket as the AFG looks good and I'm a big proponent of featureless rifles.

Further clarifying the relationship of (c) and (d), since (c) comes before (d) and makes no mention of (d)'s definitions, it's not bound by (d). (sounds like Abbot/Costello "Who's on First?" right? LOL).

And since "grip" is an important element of (c), it greenlights the KAC handstop on a featureless build. Not only is it not used or marketed as any form of grip (nor can you even remotely hold the rifle with it in any form of a pistol style grasp), it's a sling mount too. There's your GTG item on a featureless build, that's very defensible in court.

The AFG...not so much.

and this is why I said I would wait for bigger brains with more specific law and definition knowledge to tackle the black and white wording of the law.

(c) above defines forward pistol grip as allowing a pistol style grasp forward of the trigger. It says NOTHING that includes the definition of a "pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon" from part (d).

So there's a disconnect. While it's logical that (c) would include (d), it doesn't. So a forward pistol grip is not bound by the web of the hand below the action definition.

(c) just states if you can get a pistol style grasp on a GRIP mounted in front of the trigger, then it's a forward pistol grip. It specifies "grip", so things like sling mounts, bipods, light mounts are not included.

The AFG is marketed and used as a grip.

I would not use one on a featureless build or a pistol.

Like it or not, this is a pistol style grasp using this grip:

Thanks for pointing out the separate definition of "forward pistol grip". But for the sake of argument, since the definition of "pistol grip" cannot be applied and all that is written in the law is the following:

"forward pistol grip" means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp forward of the trigger.

Does this also mean that a finger stop or bipod leg could also be considered a FPG? I'm not sure if the terms used in marketing a product are relevant. If Magpul called it a "comfort rest" or something like that, would that help our arguments? This stuff is maddening, the placement and shape of a simple piece of plastic on our guns is the difference between being law-abiding and being a criminal

Does this also mean that a finger stop or bipod leg could also be considered a FPG? I'm not sure if the terms used in marketing a product are relevant. If Magpul called it a "comfort rest" or something like that, would that help our arguments? This stuff is maddening, the placement and shape of a simple piece of plastic on our guns is the difference between being law-abiding and being a criminal

No, a non-grip cannot be considered a FPG. This is why grip was specifically added to the language of the bill. Early versions essentially stated "any protruding object that could be held forward of the trigger" would be an illegal feature. In the comments period this was pointed out as incredibly broad and such things as bipods, sling mounts, light mounts, etc were mentioned as then falling into the overbroad definition. Thus the bill was rewritten to state "grip" as the specific thing that's banned.

yea, i know. we need to vote those a**clowns out of office!
so it's a no go on a featurless but how about with a fixed 10 round mag?

Anything (non-NFA) goes on a fixed, ten round magazine rifle.

__________________These posts are Fiction. They do not contain legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. Any resemblance to real persons are pure coincidence. These posts may pose an inhalation hazard, reading can be harmful or fatal. No statements made on this forum are meant to represent any corporate or business entity, others, or myself. Especially not myself.

I have to try that method of attaching the front of a sling to the gun via pubic hair.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bomb_on_bus

Best part of buying that stock is it comes with its own complimentary jar of anal lube! There were several flavors to choose from, regular, hot cinnamon, or bacon. Im a man of danger so I chose Hot cinnamon to use with my bump fire buttstock.

I have to try that method of attaching the front of a sling to the gun via pubic hair.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bomb_on_bus

Best part of buying that stock is it comes with its own complimentary jar of anal lube! There were several flavors to choose from, regular, hot cinnamon, or bacon. Im a man of danger so I chose Hot cinnamon to use with my bump fire buttstock.

Damnit. Didnt some people say its cool to use a Kydex grip/MMG type thing as a foregrip since it doesnt allow for a pg-style grasp? Shouldnt this be the same then?

Kydex/MMG don't allow a pistol style grasp. Thus, GTG. Now if you actually added a Kydex "fin" that extended behind the AFG, like a MMG, it'd be ok on a featureless. Ugly, but legal.

Quote:

Doesnt a finger stop technically allow a PG style grasp too?

See posts 21 and 27. The finger stop is not a grip and thus it's irrelevant whether or not you *might* be able to get the web of the hand behind it. Furthermore, I challenge anyone to actually HOLD and CONTROL a rifle with one hand using only the KAC handstop. It's impossible.

__________________"On bended knee is no way to be free." - Eddie Vedder, "Guaranteed"

"Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks." -Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to his nephew Peter Carr dated August 19, 1785

Kydex/MMG don't allow a pistol style grasp. Thus, GTG. Now if you actually added a Kydex "fin" that extended behind the AFG, like a MMG, it'd be ok on a featureless. Ugly, but legal.

See posts 21 and 27. The finger stop is not a grip and thus it's irrelevant whether or not you *might* be able to get the web of the hand behind it. Furthermore, I challenge anyone to actually HOLD and CONTROL a rifle with one hand using only the KAC handstop. It's impossible.

Sorry, I wasnt specific enough. I meant the kydex grip/mmg used as foregrips. Ive seen it done before and it seemed that people gave it the OK on a featureless build IIRC. Perhaps I recalled incorrectly?

I have to try that method of attaching the front of a sling to the gun via pubic hair.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bomb_on_bus

Best part of buying that stock is it comes with its own complimentary jar of anal lube! There were several flavors to choose from, regular, hot cinnamon, or bacon. Im a man of danger so I chose Hot cinnamon to use with my bump fire buttstock.

You will never get a concrete answer. even with the people in the DOJ or ATF or wherever. ALl of the products produced today bring up boundries and push the limits of legal definitions/intensions/literature. You can propose this question to different people at different agencies and get a handful of different answers. You can throw it at different DAs and get different answers.

People even push the envelope when they mount BUIS on the underside of their rail for a hand stop, technically it can be gripped in the same manner that technique has shown above. NOw I know that is not what a BUIS was made for but it is the manner that it is being used and the fact is that it is being used as a FG.

it is just a matter of time before somebody is the sacrifcial lamb and gets slaughtered in court by some over zealous DA or ATF agent.

When in doubt... leave it out

I am in the same boat and would give anything to throw the AFG on my pistol but I fell that its not worth the risk

Sorry, I wasnt specific enough. I meant the kydex grip/mmg used as foregrips. Ive seen it done before and it seemed that people gave it the OK on a featureless build IIRC. Perhaps I recalled incorrectly?

Kydex as forward grip is good to go.

MMG *might* be a bad idea as you could potentially get a pistol style grasp on it, like the AFG. Used up front, it doesn't require you to actually be able to reach a trigger like it does in the normal pistol grip spot, so that's something to consider. I don't have a MMG to actually check it out.

__________________"On bended knee is no way to be free." - Eddie Vedder, "Guaranteed"

"Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks." -Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to his nephew Peter Carr dated August 19, 1785