it was the starters who didn't get it done in the playoffs. i don't see what was so wrong with our bench?

most teams would love to have mcdyess as their 6th man, nazr's been a starting center for a championship team, flip murray was starting for a team that took us to 7 games in the ECF last year, you all love delfino, maxiell is a game-changer, hunter and davis are playoff-experienced, and dupree is the perfect 12th man.

your first question in this thread was wondering if you could come up with a team with a worse bench than the pistons, which is a silly question. orlando, boston, philly, chicago, cleveland, etc., etc., etc. the list goes on and on.

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If Nazr is so great how come the Spurs replaced him in the starting line up mid season andhe was put on the bench and then was not resigned? Hunter and Davis are old fossils that have very little in the tank to bring it consistantly every night and Dupree should be in Europe somewhere playing. As for Flip Murray the prolbem with him is that he is not a point guard. When you play a guy out of position you are setting him up to fail.

I don't agree that Chicago has a worse bench. Chicago has Duhon, Tyrus Thomas and Nocioni. Duhon can shoot the 3 and can put up double digit points and get you 5 assists a game. Then you have Tyrus Thomas who can block shots and get rebounds and clean up around the basket. Nocioni also can shoot the 3 and is aggressive around the basket and can put up double digit points.

Is there one guy besides McDyess on our bench that anyone is concerned about? I don't think so. We don't have a legit shooter like we had in the Bad Boy days a Vinny Johnson type player that can come in a shoot the lights out when his number is called. We need a guy like that.

If Nazr is so great how come the Spurs replaced him in the starting line up mid season andhe was put on the bench and then was not resigned? Hunter and Davis are old fossils that have very little in the tank to bring it consistantly every night and Dupree should be in Europe somewhere playing. As for Flip Murray the prolbem with him is that he is not a point guard. When you play a guy out of position you are setting him up to fail.

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i didn't say nazr was great, but he's a more than serviceable bench player. davis played great in the orlando series and i never heard anyone complain about him having a single poor minute in the playoffs. hunter sucked but he had been good enough the previous few years.

I don't think the problem is the bench players. I think that the problem is not using or developing the players on our bench.

Could we stand to improve the talent on our bench? Sure, there aren't many teams that couldn't.

Are they the best bench in the league? Nope, but they're also far from the worst. The fact that our starting 5 has been one of, if not the, best in the league should more than make up for that fact. I'll take an excellent starting rotation and a decent bench over a decent starting 5 and an excellent bench any day.

Is the bench responsible for our playoff collapse? Common, really? Most of our starters were either non-existent (Tay, Rip, Webber with their disappearing acts) or counterproductive (Billups with his TOs and poor shot selection) for most or all of the Cavs series in a heck of a lot more minutes than our bench players got. The bench was underutilized, underdeveloped and poorly coached all season long, and now all of a sudden they're the problem?

Do I think the bench cost us a Championship or at the very least a trip to the Finals? Not at all. I think that our bench was serviceable enough - had it been developed and used correctly - that we could have gone all the way on the strength of our starting 5.

Do I hate Flip Saunders (hate in the grossly overused and melodramatic "sports fanatic" sense of the word. I'm sure Flip is a wonderful human being away from teh game) and the direction of this team? Uh huh. With every fiber of my being.

With the exception of McDyess, do the Pistons have the most useless bench in the league? Can you come up with another team that has a bench worse than the Pistons? I am not counting Amir Johnson as a part of the bench because he never really played.

I am talking about Dale Davis, Nazr Muhammad, Ronald Dupree, Lindsay Hunter, Carlos Delfino, J-Max and Flip Murray. Can any of these guy's put up douple digit points a game? Can any of these guy's hit a shot if they are not wide open? I dont think so. Do any of these guy's have trade value? J-Max may have some value not much though because he is undersized. Other than that I don't think you can get much for any of these guy's.

Which makes no sense, considering the only true busts (NBA wide, not just on the Pistons) that Joe has drafted so far are Rodney White and Mateen Cleaves. Everyone else is still playing and contributing. They may not have reached their potential, but they are good.

A good comparison would be a guy who marries a woman he thinks is a 10. Then he realizes she's only an 8, so he divorces her to marry a 6.

I just hope that the light really has finally gone on this time, instead of them sitting in the dark, but telling us that they can see.

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Show me a quote where Flip admits he ever made a mistake, and I will hope. Nope, it will not happen. Flip still does not believe in player fatigue. He still does not believe a bench is needed. If Dumars goes forward with a plan to put so many young players on the team that Flip is forced to play some young players, Flip will rebel, undermine the heck out of those young players. He will play his game. He will try to force Dumars to bring vets aboard. If Dumars can't see what is about to happen, he needs to seriously consider finding a new job.

Show me a quote where Flip admits he ever made a mistake, and I will hope. Nope, it will not happen. Flip still does not believe in player fatigue. He still does not believe a bench is needed. If Dumars goes forward with a plan to put so many young players on the team that Flip is forced to play some young players, Flip will rebel, undermine the heck out of those young players. He will play his game. He will try to force Dumars to bring vets aboard. If Dumars can't see what is about to happen, he needs to seriously consider finding a new job.

Flip will do whatever he is told. I am not worried about that part of his coaching at least.

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Why. His best friend fired him in Minnesota, for not wanting to follow the program. Why do you think he cares a hoot what Dumars wants. So far, Flip has shown little sign of marching to any drum but his own. If you disagree, please do show me an instance where Flip actually tried to develop a bench, or gave anything more than lip service to the idea of keeping his starters rested and fresh.

Show me a quote where Flip admits he ever made a mistake, and I will hope. Nope, it will not happen. Flip still does not believe in player fatigue. He still does not believe a bench is needed. If Dumars goes forward with a plan to put so many young players on the team that Flip is forced to play some young players, Flip will rebel, undermine the heck out of those young players. He will play his game. He will try to force Dumars to bring vets aboard. If Dumars can't see what is about to happen, he needs to seriously consider finding a new job.

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Scary thing is, this is not hyperbole. I can not recall Flip ever taking the blame for anything, or admitting the players were tired. He always says, they didn't follow the game plane, or they let mental toughness allowed them to be fatigued.