- Sean Maasch "Mellow" klapping his route "Buckets of Tears" 26. This is the right hand finish to "Guns & Buckets" after you have negotiated the first kingswing roof.- Douw Steyn & Jason TF did some community service for ARF and rebolted "Zwik". Now Willem doesn't have to take his trad rack with him - I managed to thrash up my year long project "Jaws" 25 after a couple of my mates had "stolen" it . This is the left hand finish of "Tears for fears" at the recess after the 1st roof to the "Zwik" chains. The name is inspired by the lurking shadows you can see from The Hole.

Well done Sean for sending this new line, it sounds rad! Congrats also to JTF for beta flashing it and to Andy for his send. Just wondering what type of bolts did Sean put in? Still a couple of independent lines waiting at this crag....

Andy, we have TATWOCs and COCK and Bullshitters and now we have OCATHs What next?

But listen you old *uckers, some free orthopaedic advice, you ain't gonna be climbing pain free much longer if you start cranking 26s and harder at the Hole. I can list a litany of ailments and injuries that will afflict you sooner rather than later.

Snort. For a young 50 year old your'e sounding as geriatric as your advice man !!!! .... Hell life after 50 is not all doom and gloom for sports climbers or for any climbers wanting to climb harder for that matter. For sure by that time in your life your tendons, rotators et al have taken a beating but careful training and listing to your body can extend your climbing career to a ripe old age I am convinced.

The potential of a few ops and therapy along the way should not be enough to make a person snivel off to go trad climbing on easier stuff.

To Sean I say awesome and keep at it... push the boundaries of what mediocrity has led us to believe is possible or practical or whatever you want to call it...!!

For sure by that time in your life your tendons, rotators et al have taken a beating but careful training and listing to your body can extend your climbing career to a ripe old age I am convinced.

ColinCrab you are missing the point of my post. It is all about careful training and listening to your body. It is almost impossible to do so at a crag like the Hole.

I am building up a booming practice of codgers with ailments from cranking on too steep rock and even older guys training at CityROCK regularly trash their shoulders.

I have last year climbed up to 26 on trad. 99.999999999% of people will find that harder than 26 sport so to suggest its easier is total BS! But the mechanics are different on your body partly because there are the extra dimensions of carrying a heavy-ish trad rack, the weight of the rope and the drag and of course you have to be able to place the gear and that means the holds tend to be a little larger because you have to take a hand off to do so. This means that one uses one's feet more and in a different way to sport at equivalent grades.

At the hole I have to hurl myself between the holds and can do up to 5 of those hardish routes in about 3 hours when I am going well. That is not sensible for your body! You won't, can't do that on trad. It is slower and the climbing is more "deliberate". It is rare for people to get over-use injuries from trad. And it is almost unheard of that people crater on trad when climbing at the harder grades.

Ask Evan Wierx and Steve Bradshaw about their fingers from cranking hard moves. Even Clinton recently did his shoulder. My fingers are stuffed but I can still trad to 25 or so

Anyway people will do what they wanna do. And it can only be good for business

And it is almost unheard of that people crater on trad when climbing at the harder grades.

There have been no deaths or even really serious injuries on the harder trad routes on SA. Adnan's deck off the Sanatorium and Andrew Pedley on 8 Miles high are the most serious injuries I know of. Hard trad routes are steep and way scary so people are much careful about doing them and how they do them. It's the easy routes under grade 21 or 22 that are so dangerous.

Oh and Adrew has been doing a few thirties on sport of late. I have little doubt that he will never think of that 22 pitch where he bust his leg as easy. And if he cares to return to do it he will still find it hard. Tony Dick backed off that the first time he did it with me and he was going well and higher up there is a 24 pitch. It is a very tricky pitch indeed! And is actually more like 23. I have done it a few times and always find it hard - much harder than some of the 24's and 25's at the hole.

But it is still not grade 24 or 25. It is strenuous to put out good gear but the moves are really only 22 on a top-rope.

That still doesnt change the fact that trad is slow and boring as all hell for belayers and spectators alike , whereas the Hole KICKS ASS! I know Sean wont read this but next time you go I'll come and fall of stuff for your amusement, I was supposed to b there but went surfing instead.

I personally do not see why older guys can't keep up. 26 isn't super hard and it is great to see the older dudes cranking again. How old is old? How old is Sean or Andy, they are still young. The way some people are talking it sounds like we had may as well hang up our sports shoes for a pair of trad shoes at the age of 40. Have a look and see who is leading the over 35 8a listing, it is JiBi at 46 and have a look at the routes he is climbing, that is hard and he is still having fun. If some guys get a kick out of fiddling with their nuts thats fine, just do not put the hand break onto guys who want to push hard on sport, there is space for all of us. I turn 46 next week and still get a kick out of climbing routes that are at my absolute max and beyond, and I'm still getting better, what's 26, 30, 32??? The sooner we decide to do what suites us and not listen to some guys that feel they can't keep up therefore the others shouldn't move on, the better. Us old guys should be showing the next generation how it works and where to go, raving about some arb trad route with death potential at arb grade 26 is enough to put anyone off climbing. We need to train a little different and start to understand our bodies (think like an athlete) and climbing 30's at the age of 50 should be fine. I wish we could all just put our big egos away and have some fun, that's what it's about isn't it??? It's certainly not about the money. Stuart.

" Andy, we have TATWOCs and COCK and Bullshitters and now we have OCATHs What next?"

Up here in the backcountry (KZN) we are kicking ass with a good "THWACK" - Thursdays Wickedly Athletic Climbers Klub. No references to the good old days allowed - just climb and make sure that failure is a truely tangible option, otherwise you are really not trying hard enough.

A bunch of local climbers have organised their lives arround a regular Thurs pm climbing session. One of the members even turned down a 400k pa job as they refused accomodate his Thurs pm climbing slot.... Others sneak out when they are feeling brave. We occasionally have up to 12 peolpe at the crag. Not bad for sleepy Pietermaritzburg.....

Hey Roger, *ucken A dude. Inspiring indeed! But you need to post some more of this stuff. It works. just watch out for your tendons ligaments etc.

In the recent past I have had Guy, Evan, Bruce, Richard, Basher, me, Deon, and Steve come to me struggling with injuries related to cranking on sport.

Stuboy is getting it a little wrong on two counts:. He is one of those exceptions that prove the rule. You crank hard on sport at any age - never mind 40+ - and it takes inordinate luck to get away with it. Secondly if you don't want injuries then you must swallow your ego and not aim to high on the grade. Aspiring to climb 30 at my age has a well over 90% chance of ending the game entirely....

Sorry to say you are wrong Snort, I am by no means an indestructible peace of meat. I am a qualified fitness instructor and know what my body tells me and how far I can push it. I do not track, I do not campus just to mention a few. Tracking on plastic is the single biggest reason why these guys have shoulder problems. Rule number one, leave the ego outside the gym (most injuries are from plastic) and rule number two listen to your body and get a niggle sorted before it is totally stuffed.

Way to go Roger, we have a good Thursday evening thing here at De Bos too. 16h30 at a crag then the plastic then the pizza and beers, I stick to the great Sharaz that we get in these parts. Keep it up dude we need more old guys like you, proactive and cranking hard.

Stu not every one has the luxury of being a fitness instructor. etc etc. This is SA not Switzerland. The vast majority of climbers just wanna go climb. And training and science and stretching and all the stuff is way off the radar. It's not as if we make a living out of our sport, having personal physio's and trainers and training camps and coaches. Its simply not affordable in time or money for anyone that I know that climbs. We have to squeeze it into our lives. Someone like ADK just simply can't afford to go climbing any more what with 4 kids.... And I bet he would love to. Tini can't find time and he only has one kid.....

Snot a pm is a private message. Just log in and go to the forum index, at the top left you should see new messages, this links to your inbox. You can also send private messages to ppl by clicking the PM button on their posts or profile pages.

Thats the difference between Sport and Trad, sportifs actually have to train to practice their sport, and you would be wrong in assuming that they dont spend lots of time doing exactly that. You dont need loads of money and private coaches to achieve a high level of performance, just loads of determination and effort balanced by some knowledge and common sense. Both Tinie and ADK are primarily tradders so using them as an example isnt going to reveal anything about sport climbers, and besides in both cases their climbing has suffered a natality of four!

Anyway before this digresses into a sport vs trad mudslinger, I think its rad that older guys are still out cranking (yourself included) and they are serving as an inspiration to me to get my ass off the couch! I would like to hear more from the slightly younger crowd as well, as there has been impressive climbing going on. So guys - let us know and post pics please. Send some inspiration down to us plebs!!

Well I am with Stuboy on this one. I will be 51 next week and have 3 children ranging from 15 - 21 and hold down a decent job... None of these facts has ever prevented me from consistently improving my fitness and ability to push my personal envelope.

It really boils down to your mindset and understanding that when wanting to climb harder past a certain grade (26 + was mentioned), the only sure and injury free way you are going to achieve that is to accept that at that level climbing becomes an pure athletic sport and has gone beyond the concept of "a cool arb day at the crags after a bender the night before and lets see how we do".

You have to think and train like an athlete, consistently put in the time, listen your body, become finely in tune with it and adapt your training techniques as you go.

It goes without saying that personal sacrifices need to be made, some hard but the rewards outweigh these. I have found that all my injuries were from not listening to my body when I should have and had nothing to do with age... and I learn from these mistakes.

Bottom line.....cut the BS excuses relating to "age", "family", "work"....etc. you throw in your own paths to justify why you cant climb harder as you grow older. The only valid excuse is that you don't actually want to climb harder....and thats acceptable.

Very lame excuses Snort, yes it does get harder, but that's life. That's why we should be getting wiser and not full of excuses. Please do not put all South Africans in the same boat you are in, Colin for one is not in it and I'm sure there are many more. As for affording it, I wonder how much your trip to the ledge costs you with the bottle of single malt in the bag? One minute they can afford to fly all around the world climbing the next they can't afford to drive to the Hole on a sunny afternoon, I don't think so. I believe they chose to give it a break and get on with something else. I was interested in my climbing and went on many coaching courses, it's not all gang ho crank until something snaps then complain and throw in the towel. You stick to your short term mind set and we will open ours to the love and passion climbing has to offer. I will be offering some of my knowledge in a series of 7 training tips articles on this web site for those of you who are interested in having a long fun climbing career, the first one is already on. It's all about fun and doing what satisfies your passion. Happy birthday for next week Colin.

hear hear mr crab and mr stu!!!wow, thats inspirational, to say the least... ever since oom crab sent fossil he's been a sort of hero to me, and mr stu sent his route, i think it's down by a river somewhere, humbly giving his fa a grade of 31...

and like me, i guess not many people are 'born' athletes and have to work HARD to get fit and send 26+...unless you're someone like marijus, andrew,ben and clinton... loads of natural tallent ect ect...

my advise: crosstrain... activate the other muscles thats opposite the normal climbing muscles, and it seem like swimming covers a large, healthy range of mucles...that keeps my old lyfie in balance... eets whek-ieng i tell u!

While I'm just a spring-chicken, a few months shy of 45, I reckon that if Andy Davies believes he is a codger, then I must be one too? I remember, back in the day, when the Robe and Keith et al were in their 30's, we revered them as codgers. How do we categorize them now?Snort is correct in that I did approach him for some advice re. an acute injury, but I doubt it was sport climbing related. I think it was more from lugging huge loads up TM, Tafelberg, Du Toits Peak etc. The op and rehabilitation were hard, and I entertained the idea of giving up climbing all together, but I am more careful with warming up now, and stop when it hurts, and am progressing in leaps and bounds.I certainly am super psyched on climbing all over again and believe that I can still climb harder, both trad and sport, than I have ever achieved in the past. I do have a full-time job and two kids, and an admittedly terribly supportive and understanding wife, but as Stu and Colin say, it is in the mind. Believe you can do it. Want to do it. And after all, grade 30 and 31 are not really that hard and extreme in the big picture.

For sure, many many climbers who operate in the rarified air of the 8th grade say that any fit climber with enough commitment and experience can climb 8a/30. The only thing holding holding us back is a lack of belief in ourselves.

brolloks wrote:wow, thats inspirational, to say the least... ever since oom crab sent fossil he's been a sort of hero to me, and mr stu sent his route, i think it's down by a river somewhere, humbly giving his fa a grade of 31...

Nice to have you on board Richard! It's guys like you and Colin that will keep the punters of mediocrity at bay. I see the seeds were sown by the "Simply Irresistible" not bad for an "Old Fart" 27 hay. "Firestarter" is giving me a bit more up hill than I expected, a solid 29 will be added to the list of Montagu classics soon. I am enjoying taking time with the routes and feeling the challenge move by move. I know you have your eye on that one, it is a goodie you will enjoy the journey. I need to rest a few days and hopefully the send will go on Sunday, that is when I have half a day to get out from family, business and all, to do what I love doing. Would be great to hear that some of the other guys, like Andy and Sean are keen to take things forward in a inspirational kind of way.

'Nother old codger here. Turning 59 soon and getting back after a 6 year break, mainly as I am "teaching" 2 ladies this brilliant sport. And this is what does it for me, and in fact, all sport that I have done. Sharing the love of the sport with like minded people. Sure, enjoy pushing the grades, but find stacks of fun on the 15's and 16's as well. Really looking forward to getting fit enough to get into tradding again, as do the girls, who, by the way, are completely hooked.

Marshall1 wrote:JUST CLIMB! = Cliched to say the least. Go back to school.

Marshall1, that was not an attempt to rip off Nike. Please! While I do agree with you, chatting about a lot of this stuff is great, it just seems that some people get stuck on irrelevant things and get pissy in the process.