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Re: P Doc: Brewers considering Josh Hamilton; Reds should too

I'm willing to trade anyone if it improves the team. Targeting Volquez in a trade of Hamilton was a huge mistake. If Wayne had actually gotten a good pitcher in return, I wouldn't be complaining.

It seems a lot of energy is spent rationalizing why trading Josh was such a brilliant idea at the time.. he was antisocial, etc, etc.. All these excuses because on a talent level, the trade made no sense on the day it was made.
Kind of silly that people worry that Hamilton could relapse and be out of baseball, yet no worries about trading for a pitcher that struggled with control throughout his entire career, was more potential than results, and ended up being a roid user..

If the Reds wanted to trade Josh for pitching.. fine.. they should've actually gotten good pitching though..

All of this is your opinion only and hindsight. In the real world, you don't have a crystal ball to know how players will do on the future. You can only deal with the information that you have at the time.

Re: P Doc: Brewers considering Josh Hamilton; Reds should too

Originally Posted by Chip R

All of this is your opinion only and hindsight. In the real world, you don't have a crystal ball to know how players will do on the future. You can only deal with the information that you have at the time.

Yes, and at the time, I hated the trade.

Funny thing is, even in hindsight, some people refuse to acknowledge this trade was a mistake (This is true of other trades too).. The justification is always "I liked this trade at the time, based on my personal opinions".. I guess there's no such thing as a bad trade by that criteria.

Again, I see "what-ifs" being used in hindsight.. the same people (maybe not you, I can't remember) that loved Josh in his first year suddenly did a 180 as soon as he was traded.. Josh went from "the greatest Rule V pickup ever" to a "Timebomb about to relapse at any time that was the worst clubhouse cancer ever".. Yes, I'm exaggerating.

I hated the trade at the time. Wayne was a poor judge of pitching talent and could not build a ballclub (results speak for themselves). This trade was rightfully a big nail in his coffin.

Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

Re: P Doc: Brewers considering Josh Hamilton; Reds should too

Originally Posted by REDREAD

Yes, and at the time, I hated the trade.

Funny thing is, even in hindsight, some people refuse to acknowledge this trade was a mistake (This is true of other trades too).. The justification is always "I liked this trade at the time, based on my personal opinions".. I guess there's no such thing as a bad trade by that criteria.

Again, I see "what-ifs" being used in hindsight.. the same people (maybe not you, I can't remember) that loved Josh in his first year suddenly did a 180 as soon as he was traded.. Josh went from "the greatest Rule V pickup ever" to a "Timebomb about to relapse at any time that was the worst clubhouse cancer ever".. Yes, I'm exaggerating.

I hated the trade at the time. Wayne was a poor judge of pitching talent and could not build a ballclub (results speak for themselves). This trade was rightfully a big nail in his coffin.

That's fine if you hated the trade at the time. Again, it's your opinion. Others hated it too. Others thought it would work out for the Reds. The Rangers got the best of the deal and there's no denying it. But don't say that it was a no-brainer at the time.

The Rangers don't seem to want him back. It's certain that the Reds aren't to blame for the Rangers not wanting him back. Some guys aren't a good fit in one place then they go elsewhere and everything is fine. But when you go to more than one team and they don't want you back, it's just possible that it's not the team that's the problem for whatever reason.

Re: P Doc: Brewers considering Josh Hamilton; Reds should too

Originally Posted by Chip R

That's fine if you hated the trade at the time. Again, it's your opinion. Others hated it too. Others thought it would work out for the Reds. The Rangers got the best of the deal and there's no denying it. But don't say that it was a no-brainer at the time.

The Rangers don't seem to want him back. It's certain that the Reds aren't to blame for the Rangers not wanting him back. Some guys aren't a good fit in one place then they go elsewhere and everything is fine. But when you go to more than one team and they don't want you back, it's just possible that it's not the team that's the problem for whatever reason.

Well, just because the Rangers don't want him back doesn't mean he's a bad clubhouse person or a headcase. He's probably asking for a ton of money (and I don't blame him).. When Pete Rose (and others ) left as a FA, one could say the Reds didn't want them back.. truth is, they didn't want to pay for them. Sometimes clubs have sour grapes when a FA leaves them for more money.

Honestly, if the Reds traded Jay Bruce and/or Votto for Volquez instead of Hamilton, there'd probably be the same people defending that "it seemed like a good idea at the time". That's just the nature of message boards. Heck, I have done that in the past as well.

Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

Re: P Doc: Brewers considering Josh Hamilton; Reds should too

Originally Posted by REDREAD

Well, just because the Rangers don't want him back doesn't mean he's a bad clubhouse person or a headcase. He's probably asking for a ton of money (and I don't blame him).. When Pete Rose (and others ) left as a FA, one could say the Reds didn't want them back.. truth is, they didn't want to pay for them. Sometimes clubs have sour grapes when a FA leaves them for more money.

Honestly, if the Reds traded Jay Bruce and/or Votto for Volquez instead of Hamilton, there'd probably be the same people defending that "it seemed like a good idea at the time". That's just the nature of message boards. Heck, I have done that in the past as well.

The Rangers did say they wouldn't have him back even for free though, so there is that.

They don't think it be like it is, but it do.

Originally Posted by Larry Schuler

He has also taught me that even when the Reds win it is important to focus on the fact that they could have lost.

Re: P Doc: Brewers considering Josh Hamilton; Reds should too

The Rangers did say they wouldn't have him back even for free though, so there is that.

It wasn't really the Rangers that said that. It was "one club official," quoted anonymously, that said it.

Hard to say what the club's actual stance, collectively, is on Hamilton based on the anonymous hyperbole of one source.

"No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

Re: P Doc: Brewers considering Josh Hamilton; Reds should too

I think that was nothing more than speculation. They certainly aren't going to put that in print if it were him. It's certainly possible he's the one that said it, but they'll never confirm that.

"No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

Re: P Doc: Brewers considering Josh Hamilton; Reds should too

Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds

The Rangers did say they wouldn't have him back even for free though, so there is that.

One "unnamed source" in the Ranger's organization said that.
Could just be sour grapes.. I remember how PO'ed people were when Mercker said that he'd stay in Cincy for left, then signed with the Cards because he said they had a better chance of winning. Mercker wasn't really popular at that point.

They know Hamilton is gone to FA. If Hamilton was such a drain on the team, why didn't they trade him last offseason and get something for him? Probably because he's very useful for a contending team.

Thank you Walt and Bob for going for it in 2010-2014!

Nov. 13, 2007: One of the greatest days in Reds history: John Allen gets the boot!

Re: P Doc: Brewers considering Josh Hamilton; Reds should too

Wayne was a poor judge of pitching talent and could not build a ballclub (results speak for themselves).

Not to stray too far off topic, but Wayne K. did land Arroyo for WMP--and I hated that deal at the time--and, of course, Brandon Phillips for pennies on the dollar.

Sure, Wayne K. made several mistakes, but if we are going to list the best Reds trades of the past decade--admittedly, not much there--the aforementioned deals have to be at or near the top of the list. Hopefully, the Latos deal will someday be mentioned in the same light.

For the record, I wasn't thrilled with the Hamilton/Volquez deal at the time, but I have to agree with Chip that it was entirely justifiable given the circumstances at the time.

"I have just been more than a little suspect of all the trades since the Willy (Scott Williamson) cash grab. That one left such a bad taste in my mouth that even a 1985 Dom Pérignon couldn't cleanse it." -- Creek14

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