March 19, 2017

Comings and Goings

by janie m

Blog communities are like "real life" communities in some ways, and not like them in others. In my experience there are very few real life groups where a departure wouldn't be noticed or commented on, but with blogs someone can just not comment one day, and no one notices, because well, people do get busy, and then another day goes by and another and another, and finally you have the stalwart, faithful dozens (plus lurkers : - )) at the Obsidian Wings of 2017 where there were the hundreds (maybe thousands) in 2008, which is when I first came here to read Andy Olmsted's last post. Andy's departure may seem to contradict my premise, but I would argue that the loss of a front-pager is different from that of a commenter, and Andy's circumstances were of course special in ways far beyond that.

Ever since I started reading blogs about ten years ago, I’ve been fascinated by the total voluntariness of commenting communities. People come, people go, occasionally people are banned (depending on the site), but far more often commenters arrive without fanfare and disappear without notice, and they also comment in widely varying amounts and rhythms when they’re around. It would be fascinating to see a study of this flow of people in and out, and of the mix of dominant and occasional “voices” – if anyone in Eszter’s world is working on it, I’d love to read the articles. (Hint, hint.)

That passage was from my introduction to the theme of the week – "Flow" – in the Flickr photo group p5214, the second year of a project started by Eszter Hargittai of Crooked Timber in late 2012. Having completed four years of picture-taking together, the dwindling group dissolved at the end of 2016.

The group was a lot of fun. I miss the people and I miss the inspiration to take a picture every week and share it with some internet friends. We never talked politics, we never argued or got testy with each other (maybe those two facts are connected!). We just shared pictures and comments and enjoyed getting little glimpses of how other people saw the world through the lens of a camera.

The Flickr group was much like a blog in the sense that people came, people went, and sometimes people who felt like friends disappeared one day without a trace, never to be heard from again. I disappeared a couple of times myself, though I did come back last December in time to post a last picture or two to p5216, and to say thanks and bye.

Besides Eszter and Chris Bertram (another Timberite), the original p5213 group included one other handle I recognized, that of the commenter known as Baskaborr here at Obsidian Wings. At the end of that first year Baskaborr told us a story:

In one of her comments JanieMaine said she joined on a whim. I think my decision to join was mostly an act of defiance. I have stage 4 colon cancer. This time last year I was digesting bad news. After spending a little over two years on chemo the cancer sites in my liver, lung and lymphatic system were growing again. Both my oncologists agreed that I was unlikely to survive another year. When I saw an item about this project on Crooked Timber, it seemed tailor made. I've loved photography since I was a kid. One year was a good goal. So I decided I would join and I would, come hell or high water, complete the project.

Baskaborr posted his last photo to the group in May of 2016. Given his story, it was an ominous absence that followed. On the other hand, as I keep pointing out, people come and go from blogs – and photo groups – and most of the time you never know why.

With Steve, in the end I found out why. His wife wrote to me in January via Flickrmail that Steve had died on December 7.

I'm sad; I feel like I've lost a friend in that peculiar way of online connections. But part of Steve isn't gone; the internet being what it is, he left a legacy that can be searched, for anyone who's interested.

It's easy to go to Flickr and look through Steve's photostream; you can even find pictures of the man himself. As for blog comments, I had the best luck when I typed "Baskaborr obsidianwings.blogs.com" in a Google search box. "Baskaborr" alone yields comments he made elsewhere, too.

I could say a lot more about the dynamics of blog comments, but maybe we can do that together...in the comments.

I had a similiar experience only more so with another Obwi commenter when he told me about the death of his dog. I think about that commenter often. As you say, people come and go and he went. He had a lot of stressors in his life and I am afraid that his life has not gotten better for him, but I don't know.

There are other people I miss.

But people come and go. It does make me sad even though the relationship is usually no more than familiarity with a name and maybe a style of comment.

Something I wonder about is how many people meet IRL after getting to know each other strictly on line. I've only met one person - Hogan, who used to comment here. We had a great time, with both of our wives, having drinks and the best burgers EVAR!!! in Philadelphia. But that was it.

It is interesting, the dynamics of blogs and other on-line communities. (Are they Gaussian?) I've only commented regularly on maybe 4 blogs in my life. Sometimes I'll follow links from comments or posts here, and I'll find comments from others who used to comment here. I always wonder why they don't comment here anymore if they still bother to comment on, say, Balloon Juice or Crooked Timber.

I really don't get why anyone bothers to comment on stuff on Yahoo! and such, with thousands of mostly abusive people. But lots of people do that, obviously. It's like when Yogi Berra said, "Nobody goes there anymore. It's too crowded." (If he actually said that...)

And what of the mental images you have of people on line. How do you formulate them? Are they ever accurate?

I've told this before, but I got here because a random comment that Edward (another one to add to Wonkie's list) gave an appreciative reply and I was off. For me, it's trying to keep up my English, though I wonder if that is an excuse. Still, before Trump, talking with other foreigners here about some of the stuff we've talked about here wasn't really imaginable. However, now, after Trump, often times, we always end up circling the drain that Trump is. I have heard of a few Trump supporters in the circles I am in, but they are really few and far between. Or they may not be saying anything to me to avoid me blowing up. So writing here at a bit of a higher level about some things is helpful, but, as I said, it's hard to underestimate the amount of anger I feel.

But a big thing in these communities is latency. A place like Balloon Juice or Unfogged really can't have a lot of latency in the signal. Crooked Timber doesn't have as much problems with that, but I feel like the replies are in a mid-atlantic time zone. Us having people spread out seems to slow down the replies, opening up more space for discussion. Several times, I've asked people to slow down a bit, avoiding multiple comments, 3 in a row. Besides the obvious, that if you are having to come back and say 'oh and by the way', it often means that some emotions are involved, I really feel that if you can slow down the pace a bit, you get the opportunity for some real exchange. Of course, you miss out on the witty Algonquin Round Table stuff, but that's the trade off.

I think about the departures (or absences) too, not so much the still heavily missed hilzoy, because that was so well trailed and explained, but for a recent example when Trump's budget is announced, I wonder where jrudkis is (probably out on active service I guess). This is the only blog I've ever commented on (apart from a couple of comments over at cleek's during his absence), and it's become surprisingly important to me. When there is big news, I wonder what people here are going to make of it, and when I read something good I want to share it with ObWi people. Perhaps it is because I am rather isolated when in the North Country (as opposed to London), but actually I don't think it's that. I think it's the strong engagement on lots of different issues that I value; my family was like that, and as they get fewer and further away, ObWi seems very alive and often passionately engaged. I don't comment on stuff I know nothing about, like US tax matters, but I always read it with at least some attention. ObWi is capable of educating me on some issues - I think that's a remarkable thing, and a testament to the breadth and depth of the experience and educated opinions here.

-- My impression of Crooked Timber is quite different from lj's. They have commenters and posters in Australia, and John Holbo and Belle Waring are in Singapore (most of the time), and there seem to be quite a few commenters from Europe as well. The pace has changed drastically since they started moderating everything, though -- it's interesting to watch the waves of comments...with waves of reactions usually not coming until half a day or a day later.

-- Meeting people in real life: Half a dozen of us from ObWi met for dinner in the Boston area a few years ago. I've had a couple more meals with one person from that group who lives right in the neighborhood where I work when I'm down there. (You-all can out yourselves or not as you see fit. :-) BJ people seem to make it a thing to meet up when someone is traveling, but I'm only the most casual participant over there since the pace is utterly beyond my ability to keep up! (Or willingness, truth be told.)

Janie, you are right, that Oz contingent is there. Though Belle's posts seem to get a different sort of reaction than the others. I love her posts, but I can't imagine responding to any of them in any way that doesn't seem like mansplaining. But I've always felt that when I've gotten to a post at CT that I could comment on, it's already way down the track and impossible to enter without a whole slew of acknowledgements to other comments.

Also, I have to admit, at least to my mind, there sometimes seems to be that academic bloodsport vibe there where 'you've obviously misunderstood the footnote on page 95 that puts a lie to your whole argument'. I exaggerate but not totally.

Of course to each his own. I read LGM pretty closely (posts, but not comments), but some folks here really dislike them. I didn't like the CT/LGM fight (don't remember the details, but it was about tweets and people getting fired) and I like that people here don't cite twitter, because it is a medium that I can't really get my head around.

I am pretty sure that I have never commented on any other blog, or read any other blog regularly. I tried my own a few years ago and it kind of trailed away. I find that the regulars that leave take a piece of the fabric with them. But, that is only more recently for me. Over the eight or 9 years I have been here, I really appreciate the evolution into a more personal atmosphere.

I find myself less angry and less insulted. more concerned when I have clearly offended someone, and more prepared for the way certain people see me and react to me.

I find the predictability of responses comforting, while trying to continue to see through reaction to whatever information might be there. You, the OBWi commentariat, provide me with a place to understand the stances that are just dogma or talking points elsewhere.

In all of those ways, when slart or others fade away, it leaves a empty space that wont be filled. The not quite so left leaning Republican as wj, with the ability to examine broad conservative positions while understanding where they may not, or aren't, the best solutions to a particular issue. That person isn't here anymore.

While perhaps not a group of friends, OBWi is as the only extended group of people that I spend time with on these subjects, and I value the opinion of every one here. In those times ya'll talk about books, sci-fi, music, art and family I realize that I genuinely care about everyone commenting. I like to see who reads and listens to what, how many grandchildren they have (7 for me 17 yrs. - 4 months)how they view life, not just the national political arena.

...OBWi is as the only extended group of people that I spend time with on these subjects, and I value the opinion of every one here.

Same here. I only have a few friends I don't get to see very often with whom I could have nearly as enlightened a conversation as I can here, at least on the kinds of things we regularly discuss on ObWi. (I have friends who probably know a lot more about, say, death metal than most of you. Nobody's perfect, right?)

I've actually met a couple of folks here in person. The one I remember most clearly is ral. I was sorry when he disappeared . . . and delighted that he is back.

The only other place that I comment much is the Economist blogs. There are regulars there who are quite sensible, some nut cases, and one particularly irritating spammer (who keeps generating new IDs when he gets banned). I actually met one of the sensible guys from there in person, when he moved relatively close ("relatively" meaning within a couple hours drive). Impressive for a commentariate which is even more world-wide than we are.

The folks here are valuable to me because, among other things, they read all kinds of stuff that I don't routinely see. The links are great, and definitely broaden my horizons.

I am still playing Army, as a DA civilian and Army Reserve. I tend to lurk here, but started posting a little bit again since it is now a crime for me to post derogatory stuff about POTUS et al in real life.

I have very little contact at this point with former classmates with pro-trump views. Today I did recommend a woman for a job who still supports Trump, because she is hardworking and detail oriented. On Saturday she told me 'what, I was going to vote for Hillary?' But she is in Montana, so I have to allow for the groupthink factor.

Even if I generalize it to schoolmates rather than classmates, I think I can count on my fingers the number I know for sure who aren't Trump supporters. I couldn't even begin to guess the number I know ARE Trump supporters. Sad!

It is interesting, the dynamics of blogs and other on-line communities. (Are they Gaussian?)

If you mean the commenting rates of different commenters, I suspect they, more likely, follow the Pareto principle with about 20% of the commenters making about 80% of the comments. Although that may not hold true for the more volatile commenting environments like Yahoo.

I think commentariat culture took a deep dive when various websites instituted threaded comments.

hairshirthedonist already mentioned ThatLeftTurninAlbuquerque, and this adds so many memories to that one. I remember wishing I could meet ThatLeftTurn and Uncle Kvetch (not an exhaustive list !). I remember jesurgislac -- who could forget her! -- an excellent example of departure without explanation. Her participation was so regular and stopped so totally all at once (without any particular trigger that I was aware of) that I remember hoping she was okay.

Also, although I only read a few blogs, and even fewer comment threads, I agree with CharlesWT about threaded comments. They're a nuisance, and avoid blogs that use them.

Another aspect of the list: clever names. In the earliest days of blogs I tended to check out blogs with cool names first. Obsidian Wings would be on that list! But I also get a kick out of clever handles. Davis X. Machina is an all-time favorite.

But while I'm at it: hairshirthedonist is also one of the great memorable handles.

Bedtimeforbonze talked about coming to one of our Boston-area meet-ups years ago, but he never made it. (Not that he lives around there, but maybe had a trip in the works?) Bedtime, if you're out there lurking, I hope you're thriving.

****

CharlesWT: 20%/80% may be in the ballpark, although I might guess an even greater gap in the percentages. And that's not taking lurkers into account at all, is it? This is why I was needling Eszter in the photo group discussion about someone doing a study; internet use is her area of expertise, although I'm not sure of her exact focus.

I had been looking for a sign of bedtimeforbonzo; I recall he was sinking under the strain of our continuously crashing economy.

Jesurgliac (very clever name, she explained it once - something in there with the french syllables) - I think she had a fallout with Hilzoy over Obama vs Hillary. I wonder where she came down on Bernie.

That may be so, but hilzoy left in July of 2009 and a quick google finds jesurgislac still going strong a year later. I took a long break starting in the fall of 2011, and my vague memory is that jesurgislac disappeared a few months before that.

Someone up thread mentioned imagining what posters look like based on their names/handles.

I do that, or once did, with radio voices. Especially sultry-voiced women deejays on late night jazz or classical music stations. I always wonder if the old saw "She has a face made for radio" is true for them as well.

My imagination has them all pegged as Julie London lookalikes, with auburn hair falling over one shoulder.

I noted before that for a long time I misread hairshirt's handle as "hair shirt the donist" and mused whether he was some sort of martyred orthodontist.

With the addition of the man bag and his other accoutrements, I've had to
adjust my image of Russell over time. I now expect him to be playing bagpipes when we meet one day.

Girl from the North Country I have down as a flaxen-haired lass in a shawl peering out to sea from a wind-swept promontory in the North of England way perhaps awaiting the return of someone important to her, or waiting for his ship to LEAVE, as a funny New Yorker cartoon turned the image around a few years back.

And I see that I spelled out ABQ as Albuquerque above...the brain plays funny tricks.

That could be my fault. That's how I remembered it and wrote it in my earlier comment, but I found through later googling that it was just ABQ.

Judging by dates on google hits, his online activity, at least under that handle, seems to have ended in 2013.

This post got me googling handles and reading old threads a couple days ago. It's kind of a weird thing to do. I feels voyeuristic, even though I was involved at the time and it was all for public consumption. It's like I'm spying on the past.

I'm reasonbly sure I was at least a little drunk when I wrote my bio on that thread, which is kind of embarassing, since the time stamp is 12:40 PM. At least it was Saturday ... and summer, if that's at all mitigating.

Jesurgliac told us that she took her name from the "lady of the lake" from the Arthurian legend, as I recall.

She was/is awesome and the single largest, individual influence on my then-views of SSM.

Her scathing logic is greatly missed. As one who was very often on the receiving end of it, I learned first to look past the part that expressed or implied what a dumbass I was to find out whether in fact I was in the dumbass category on the topic at hand. I often was. When I was not and when I pushed back, we had great exchanges. I'd always had hopes of getting to the UK and having tea or a drink or whatever with her.

I hope she is well, lurking and surrounded by friends and loved ones.

If I may be so bold: we might have a commentator or two here who possibly could learn something about arch engagement from Jes. It would be awesome if someone could mine the old threads for some of her classics.

That 80/20 rule seems to explains so much of life. But I wonder how many more lurkers like me that there are. I've been around since the days of Moe but I rarely comment. At first it was that I just couldn't keep up. By the time my comment was posted someone had already said what I said. Then Russell came and he said everything I wanted to say better, faster, and with a lot more grace than I could have. So Thank you, Russell, for speaking for me so well.
I miss Jes too, though... I remember when she disappeared that I thought she would be back because she occasionally would get pissed and walk away for a while, then come back.
She is probably the only person on a blog that managed to change my position on anything. Took forever but I finally decided she was right.

As one who was very often on the receiving end of it, I learned first to look past the part that expressed or implied what a dumbass I was to find out whether in fact I was in the dumbass category on the topic at hand. I often was.

The beginning of wisdom. A lesson I try to learn every day. Or, at least, learn it before it is beaten into my head by sheer force of circumstance.

I don't remember Jesurgislac very well (and I don't remember Marty's bio link at all, although I was lurking at the time, perhaps not as faithfully as I thought), but you all are making me wish I did, or that she was still around and contributing. However, I do want to express how much pleasure I have derived from seeing lots of you exchange Lady in the Lake/Holy Grail dialogue and insults. As far as I am concerned, there can never be enough of either. I've had to make a quick trip Southwards, so haven't had a chance to properly catch up - I hope I've put this in the right thread!

Thanks ral, but it was possible that it may have caused confusion in anybody who hadn't read the whole, old thread. I've been chasing old jesurgislac posts here there and everywhere, and found excellent (from my feminist, pro-choice point of view) stuff of hers on abortion. Without wishing to derail onto the perennially contentious issue, the next time we get into it I would be interested to hear McKinney's reaction to her post, given his admiration for her. I do quite understand that his admiration doesn't mean he agrees with her on everything (or maybe even most things), but still, it would be interesting.