Posted
by
msmash
on Thursday May 10, 2018 @10:00AM
from the in-the-meanwhile dept.

Apple ditched plans to build an 850 million euro ($1 billion) data center in Ireland because of delays in the approval process that have stalled the project for more than three years, the iPhone maker said on Thursday. From a report: Apple announced plans in February 2015 to build the facility in the rural western town of Athenry to take advantage of green energy sources nearby, but a series of planning appeals, chiefly from two individuals, delayed its approval. Ireland's High Court ruled in October that the data center could proceed, dismissing the appellants who then took their case to the country's Supreme Court.

not all of it would go to the locals of course, but there's a huge initial influx from the construction, and an ongoing benefit in the form of maintenance/support of the facilities, permanent jobs, and a serious upgrade needed to support so many more local people.

I'm betting Ireland is going to look at this as a "lesson" on what can happen to cause them to lose out on such a big opportunity, and to draft measures and responses in place for the next time opportunity comes knocking, to make sure someone opens

I don't think you know what a data center is. It doesn't create many jobs. The construction is just companies bringing in crews and when it is done they leave. The only effect on the locals is that they now have a big ugly data center and their utility rates probably go up. My guess the "green energy" source that Apple was going to use was hydro, which isn't "green" at all.

While true that there are not many permanent jobs in a datacenter, what do you mean by energy rates going up and "ugly" data center? At best the datacenter is a non-descript building just like any other building. With Apple specifically it says in the title that they were attracted by the abundant green energy nearby. Combined with Apple's zero footprint policies, it's unlikely that the locals might see their energy rates go down as Apple will sell back excess energy.

Yeah I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't want that in their town. It is in the "middle of nowhere" right? No ecological problems there - it is "nowhere".

Are you changing the goalposts?

You guys are so stupid. A building of that size has only a negative impact on a town. There is nothing good about that picture.

What you are describing is basically every single industry that comes into a town then. That building could be making car parts or assembling furniture. Are you against any sort of industry in any place then?

1) Where do you get the "town" was against it. All reports say "Two people" were against it. 2) The reports do not say why they were against it

I realize you probably don't own a home, or care about where you live, but some people do.

And how would you know that? That's an assertion without foundation. My neighbor a few houses down painted his/her place an ugly color. Did I lodge a formal protest with the city and the neighborhood association? No: I don't interfere with my neighbor's personal choice but apparently you wold have done so.

Please post what you describe as "data centers that look like shit". Also you do understand that most data centers are located away from town centers, right? With the space and power requirements, Apple and Google puts their data centers very specifically away from everything.

Go do your own damn research. I'm not your servant. I just said "I don't want a data center in your town"

I did. But what you are saying is that you won't back up your opinion when challenged.

You haven't even seen a data center apparently.

Please read my other post. I specifically posted images of Apple's data center in North Carolina [google.com]. 1) You can't really see it from the road. 2) It's located 4 miles outside the nearest town.

Your entire post is that it's "ugly" in your town. If it's not in your town and you can't see it, what windmill are you tilting at? Do you rant about the "ugly" buildings in your state that you have never seen or visited?

Let me see if I understand you: You are complaining about Apple's "ugly" data center that will look like any other industrial building that you can't really see and is located away from a town that has no bearing on you because are "not a self-centered idiot". It seems like you are only demonstrating the opposite of what you claim.

Maybe in America where every last little scrap of money is everything this would be a huge lesson
But I imagine that a small Irish town would rather NOT have those scraps of money (most of which will go to the architects and building contractors) and preserve their way of life. Unlike in the US, not every town is thrilled at the idea of becoming a strip mall for tech workers to get their ramen and dry cleaning and who bring the self-centered, clueless phone gazing monoculture culture of elitism and snobbery with them
So yes, I think Apple got the hint that this community and the PEOPLE in it had serious reservations and some even colder feet, though they were tempted by the prospects, I think both parties are much better off with this deal being called off

I think both parties are much better off with this deal being called off

Elitism in a nutshell. You think you know something you know nothing about, and are all the more happy to tell people your view of the world is correct, without any indication you are right. I mean, you could be right, or you could let those involved decide for themselves.

This case was an abuse of the legals system, where two people (elistists like yourself) insist they know better than everyone else. Tyranny by any other name.

Using a rubber mallet on your head is using a rubber mallet as designed. Hitting something. And while not as intended, nothing hitting your head intentionally is good, ever, especially for you.

That even one person thinks so raises the obvious question, 'why?' This is the question raised when someone opposes a new hydro dam, or an office building, or even an additional lane on the freeway. If you delay the project sufficiently, those who prefer to do business with partners will end up going way, leaving a re

I love how you redicule some one for coming to a conclusion on something they know nothing about and then in the same post come to a conclusion about what happened.

Do you have some hidden insights that the above poster doesnt or are you just a hypocrite?

As far as I can tell why those planning appeals took place aren't public knowledge (at least I didn't see anything on a quick search). Those two people could have had perfectly legitimate reasons to file their appeals.

Also, the local golf course didn't like it either because of flooding concerns. Slashdot idiots think that building a massive data center will have no ecological impact on the area because Apple says it is "green".

Also, the local golf course didn't like it either because of flooding concerns. Slashdot idiots think that building a massive data center will have no ecological impact on the area because Apple says it is "green".

Looks like it was basically a Town forest surrounded by farmland with some patchy clearing for local wood harvesting. I would have been just as opposed to industrializing a rural and natural area like that. Should be a nature preserve not an FU mega landscape ruining data center.

Believe it or not, individuals are allowed to challenge things in court. I know, hard to believe that is still allowed. It really should be banned and only the State and Corporations should have the power to decide what is best.

Believe it or not, individuals are allowed to challenge things in court. I know, hard to believe that is still allowed. It really should be banned and only the State and Corporations should have the power to decide what is best.

While tyranny is too strong a word, it's hard to get past the fact that in this case two cooks abused the legal system to block a project that has no detrimental effect on them and that includes the remote possibility of them getting leukaemia from all those magnetic fields since data centres are generally not located in the middle of residential neighbourhoods. Now if Apple had been fracking shale deposits in the area and poisoning their water supply I'd agree with you, but a data centre is just this big l

"Abused the legal system". I love it. If you idiots actually read the complaints it includes a complaint from the adjacent property where they were concerned about the local flooding such a site would cause. And Apple wasn't making it subterranean, did you even see the plan? Here it is:

Ireland chose not to become a corporate whore this time but has tried American style corporate socialism in the past. Have you heard of the potato famine? Chances are you heard wrong. Irish farms exported other economically productive at the same time as the farmers starved. In the more recent past Ireland did bend over to Apple, Dell and other IT companies only to have them downsize or close down once their tax incentives expired. The Irish government also used tax money to buy distressed property after the first celtic tiger property bubble burst and then they sold it to REIT vulture funds such as the one managed by Dan Quayle. Quayle makes money while Irish homelessness is skyrocketing. Deja vu to the foreign slumlords who inspired the Irish land wars a century and a half ago. This may have been a poor decision but much poorer decisions are being made every day in pursuit of short-term corporate profits.

Many medical breakthroughs were made with socialized medicine and government research. NASA gets it's funds from the government, so it too is a socialized organization. They've come up with tech like heat resistant materials used in manufacturing and everyday life.

No, people that can make a decent living off things that are passionate about what they do is what makes things. Are some of these people making it big because of capitalism? Sure, but it's not the only way.

"Anything I like from the government, I'll explain away as actually being from THE PEOPLE."

"Anything I don't like from the government, is terrible because, by definition and holy writ, all which comes from the government is terrible, so say we all."

The government is hardly perfect, but I worked in the computer field in the early 90s. The internet was just one network among a dozen or so capitalist ones, including AOL, Compuserve, Delphi, and more. The capitalist one

It's not $1B to the local economy, it's a handful of medium pay jobs after the construction is complete, and because datacenters are so specialized the construction is usually handled by a firm that does nothing but plan and build them so you don't even get temporary construction jobs. From a land and resource usage perspective a datacenter is probably one of the worst candidates.

The only thing that will probably be custom and contractors flown in is for the low-volt and fiber networks. Everything else will have to be built to local building codes and inspected by the local authority, whom the local contractors have working relationships with.

If that. The last data center I worked at belonged to a major telco; two huge warehouse-style buildings with a multitude of different data centers within them. The most people I saw on-site at any one time was about 20.

Yup, was a customer of a major AT&T center in Ashburn, VA, ~400k square feet and no more than 6 people including the security guard there most of the time. That place might have had 20-30 employees total for all 3 shifts. The next center we moved to in Columbus was about 100k square feet and had like 10 employees total onsite for all 3 shifts.

The only thing that will probably be custom and contractors flown in is for the low-volt and fiber networks. Everything else will have to be built to local building codes and inspected by the local authority, whom the local contractors have working relationships with.

Yes I'm sure the local economy (made up of approximately 4000 people in total) will be used for all that. It certainly won't be some construction firm bringing in labour from afar to do that construction, because only that town of 4000 people know how to build a datacentre according to code.

Indeed. It would no doubt have been built on farmland with the local farmers - of thich there will be many - having their land compulsory purchased. All they'd see out of it is reduced income and more traffic.

It would no doubt have been built on farmland with the local farmers - of thich there will be many - having their land compulsory purchased

Why would you imagine "compulsory purchased"? It's a data center - a large building - not an airport. Apple has billions stuck in Ireland right now, and Irish farm land isn't Manhattan. Apple would have no problem finding one farmer to sell them some land.

All they'd see out of it is reduced income and more traffic.

Once it's complete, it's (a few) more jobs in the local economy, which then have a multiplied effect for more support jobs (creating a tech job in the first world creates an extra 1.6 or so "neighborhood" jobs, closer to 10x in places like India). A fe

Indeed. It would no doubt have been built on farmland with the local farmers - of thich there will be many - having their land compulsory purchased. All they'd see out of it is reduced income and more traffic.

I dunno, perhaps instead of living in a dying town, they would have liked the opportunity to have a few more jobs available to the townsfolk.

But neither of us know, and are basically clueless. How about the people there get to decide, rather than have some bureaucratic nightmare, and a few internet trolls at/. dictate how they are supposed to be.

Yeah, I feel sorry for that small, rural town, missing out on about $1B for their economy, just because of two assholes.

Why do you assume that money would go predominately to the local economy? Obviously they would capture some of it but it's unclear how much. Plus having a large company come in and dominate the local economy is the very definition of a two edged sword. It can bring a lot of positive economic benefits but it also makes the local economy beholden to that one company and can absolutely ruin the local economy if/when they leave.

Of course if they wanted to build it next to your house you'd be completely happy with the idea.

One house near me is full of white trash who make everyone else on the street miserable.Another has a dog that is allowed to bark at all houses of the day and night.Another is running some kind of auto shop out of his garage and makes noise all day and night.

I'd happily smile if Apple announced it is building a data center (or anything else) in any of those locations...or anywhere else near my house.

Of course if they wanted to build it next to your house you'd be completely happy with the idea.

I live in a residential area. They can't build it next to my house. They couldn't get approval to do that.

The difference is, Apple GOT approval, so they met all the zoning and environmental requirements.

If you live in a light industrial or commercially zoned area, then you are begging for your neighbor to be a light industry or commercial operation. Pretending that nobody can put a new building into such a zone because you live there is just patently stupid.

How does an Apple data center help the Irish economy? Would you want a data center in YOUR town? I am sorry so many of you think that planning laws and individual voices are not important. You guys would make excellent servants. All hail the Corporation!

Yeah, I feel sorry for that small, rural town, missing out on about $1B for their economy, just because of two assholes.

Large companies don't build in small towns (especially in Ireland, of all places) to provide anything of substance to the local population. They do it because they can bribe a couple councilmen for zero tax burdens and in Ireland especially they do it because they already have deals to avoid most US and EU taxes. Of that $1b in costs the town might see a few thousand dollars, trickled down from their mayor and councilmen.

If you don't want to read the link, George Lucas said, I want to build a Start Wars Museum in Chicago! I will pay for it out of my personal money. Everyone loved the idea (many didn't like the design) except a group Friends of the Park, that wants to maintain the lake shore property as mostly green space.

They complained, they sued, and appealed and Lucas said, forget it, I am out.

How is that "unfortunate"? What is the benefit for building a Star Wars museum on public green space?

1. It wasn't 'green space'. It was a parking lot next to Soldier Field. Converting a parking lot into a museum is a huge benefit to the community.

1a. A huge side-effect benefit may be that it convinces more people to use public transit to get to Soldier Field and/or the new Museum, pumping money into the public transit system and reducing the use of fossil fuels.

2. The Tribune story refers to "4000 construction jobs". Four thousand construction jobs are a benefit to the community. These will be mostly we

NIMBY seems to have been invented in the USA. 'Seems' being the operative word, but it has been raised to a fine art here. California is the thought leader in this, and this is standard practice for several scenarios, not just nuclear power but even corporate siting.

If the datacenter was going to put too much strain on the local power infrastructure then I can imagine other challenges needing to be worked out, like upgrading the power generation facilities. On the other hand if it was going to rely on its own power generation facilities, then I am sure the barrier would be lower.

Just because a building complies with code and zoning doesn't mean it will be approved. Building codes don't cover every aspect of the design and construction. The zoning rules in that area allowed for discretionary review. Sorry you don't like the rules, and the idea that local residents should have a say in what is built in their neighborhoods, but that's how it works. Building a four story McMansion was clearly inappropriate for that area.

Yep, that's exactly what I thought when I read the headline. Apple found a 'face-saving' way to get out of the deal without coming across as total jerks due to the real reason being the newly less than ideal tax situation.
Next data center location Cyprus...

The fact that they moved the datacenter project to Denmark, where the business tax rate it 24.5%, much higher the Irelands 12.5% suggests your theory is lacking.

Or it suggests you might have a binary view of the factors that influence their data center location decisions. Before the EU crackdown Apple was paying essentially 0% corporate tax, which allowed them to compensate for potentially higher operating costs and lower power-grid reliability in Ireland vs the center they already had in Denmark [they

TFA article tells you crap about the complaints. Here's a much better article:http://www.datacenterdynamics.com/content-tracks/design-build/apples-irish-data-center-faces-new-hearing/96069.fullarticle

"...objectors raise fears that it would flood golf course, and make inordinate demands on Ireland&rsquo;s power grid."

"The full proposal would reduce the habitat of bats and badgers, say some objections, and the Bord has also received a complaint from Athenry Golf Club, 1km away from the site. 'Our primary concern is the totality of the proposed development, especially the extent of the proposed masterplan, and the potential this has to alter the hydrology of the local area and potentially increase the frequency and duration of flooding already experienced at the golf club,' says the golf club&rsquo;s appeal"

I come from one of the places that hast the highest % of "renewable energy" creation. The last figure I have is 104% of actual use and rising. (Orkney is VERY windy and we like wind turbines.) I doubt Apple would consider a datacentre up here but that's fine. Construction of these things makes a mess but employs few locals in the process. It leaves a large ugly blob that doesn't help the place look good and employs next to nobody afterwards,

Well, a rural town with only 3,950 people in it? Yeah a datacentre is going to destroy that overnight.

Sure, someone may decide that's necessary, but it's by no means a "Oh, my god, why are they saying no!?" reaction, surely? I'd object if I lived in a town of only 4000 people and Apple wanted to install a huge feck-off datacenter with presumably hundreds or thousands of people there on my doorstep.

So, this is literally 5 minutes down the road from me (when the traffic's good)..

This isn't a popular decision here. I don't personally know anyone who had any objections at all - although we do note one of the people objecting resides on the other side of the country.

On the other hand, it's not the end of the world either. Once they're operational, datacenters don't employ anywhere near as many people as you'd think. Especially when they're single-tenant and managed off-site. And as small and rural as Athenry sounds (and looks), it's turning into a commuter town anyway. The city would be considered a very reasonable commute by American standards. (I have colleagues that can get in in 10-15 minutes - but sometimes take an hour to get home. Traffic is our major problem here, and this site would have little impact on it.)

Someone mentioned taxes. No-one's here is under any illusion that the topics are related. Denmark is not exactly a tax haven, and the two sites were announced at the same time. This is a stupid process that's been dragging out years longer than it should have, and ground to a halt enough times that the end was inevitable.

Someone else mentioned renewables. It's entirely wind here. We don't have a lot of scope for hydro; it's just too flat to support it. We do have a lot of scope for tidal, but little willingness to tamper with the picturesque coastlines when wind is so very plentiful here.

All in all, this is just a failure of process. Not the planning process itself, but the appeals process shouldn't be able to drag out so long as to destroy an opportunity. There should be a limit to how many appeals you can lose, otherwise the process stops being a battle of facts, and simply a battle of stubbornness.

I mean, imagine if you were trying to build a home - and someone a few hundred miles away objected to it. And objected, and objected. And lost every time, but was able to continue objecting until the build was no longer feasible. You'd be asking where the line is too. People should be able to object, and those objections should be able to hold some weight - I think it's fantastic that the common man can actually win against someone the size of Apple. But if the developer wins, that should mean something too.

And decided to walk rather than borrow some euros for a data center they don't need yet...

Apple will place the first tranche of its €13 billion Irish tax bill in an escrow account next month following the signing of a legal agreement between the Government and the US tech giant.... [irishtimes.com]