An Atheist Turned Muslim - Think Atheist2015-08-02T20:29:50Zhttp://www.thinkatheist.com/forum/topics/an-atheist-turned-muslim?groupUrl=exmuslimsupportgroup&commentId=1982180%3AComment%3A649819&xg_source=activity&groupId=1982180%3AGroup%3A474338&feed=yes&xn_auth=no@ Deniz Mustafa
I'm confuse…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2011-07-18:1982180:Comment:7441772011-07-18T16:07:48.437ZHopehttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/hope
<p><em>@ Deniz Mustafa</em></p>
<p><em> </em></p>
<p>I'm confused how can a muslim be a muslim without believing in the Hadith?!!</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Muslims can not be Muslims without believing in the Hadith!</p>
<p><em><em>it is an important tools for understanding the Qur'an and understanding the whole Islam, how to pray how to understand the </em></em> <em><em>[</em></em><em><em><span style="text-decoration: underline;">five pillars of Islam that are the whole Islamic thing…</span></em></em></p>
<p><em>@ Deniz Mustafa</em></p>
<p><em> </em></p>
<p>I'm confused how can a muslim be a muslim without believing in the Hadith?!!</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Muslims can not be Muslims without believing in the Hadith!</p>
<p><em><em>it is an important tools for understanding the Qur'an and understanding the whole Islam, how to pray how to understand the </em></em> <em><em>[</em></em><em><em><span style="text-decoration: underline;">five pillars of Islam that are the whole Islamic thing ]</span></em></em></p>
<h2><span class="mw" id="Usage">from wikipedia,</span></h2>
<h2><span class="mw"> Usage of the Hadith,</span></h2>
<p>The overwhelming majority of <a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim" title="Muslim">Muslims</a> consider hadith to be essential supplements to and clarifications of the Qur'an, Islam's holy book, as well as in clarifying issues pertaining to Islamic jurisprudence. <a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Salah" title="Ibn al-Salah">Ibn al-Salah</a>, a hadith specialist, described the relationship between hadith and other aspect of the religion by saying: "It is the science most pervasive in respect to the other sciences in their various branches, in particular to jurisprudence being the most important of them."<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-11"><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith#cite_note-11"><span>[</span>12<span>]</span></a></sup>"The intended meaning of 'other sciences' here are those pertaining to religion," explains Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, "<a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tafsir" title="Tafsir">Quranic exegesis</a>, hadith, and jurisprudence. The science of hadith became the most pervasive due to the need displayed by each of these three sciences. The need hadith has of its science is apparent. As for Qur'anic <a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exegesis" title="Exegesis">exegesis</a>, then the preferred manner of explaining the speech of God is by means of what has been accepted as a statement of Muhammad. The one looking to this is in need of distinguishing the acceptable from the unacceptable. Regarding jurisprudence, then the jurist is in need of citing as an evidence the acceptable to the exception of the later, something only possible utilizing the science of hadith."<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-Nukat_3-1"><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith#cite_note-Nukat-3"><span>[</span>4<span>]</span></a></sup></p> Hahaha the beating thing was…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2011-05-18:1982180:Comment:6656812011-05-18T00:40:57.688ZDeniz Mustafahttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/DenizMustafa
Hahaha the beating thing was one way of saying it, but you completely ignored the second part of that of which the word can mean "to go away from". Regardless I have found the answer to my original question in this thread, so thank you all!
Hahaha the beating thing was one way of saying it, but you completely ignored the second part of that of which the word can mean "to go away from". Regardless I have found the answer to my original question in this thread, so thank you all! I hope one day you will get t…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2011-05-17:1982180:Comment:6645572011-05-17T14:59:56.611ZMostafahttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/Mostafa375
<p>I hope one day you will get the point that how irrational your thinking right now is.</p>
<p>Punish them, beat them and if they submit then be good for them. Shame on anyone who still thinks that the nice words after abusing someone can wash away the cruelty of previous action. </p>
<p>By the way you make a good Imam. Don't waste your time and apply for one :)</p>
<p>Cheers!!</p>
<p>I hope one day you will get the point that how irrational your thinking right now is.</p>
<p>Punish them, beat them and if they submit then be good for them. Shame on anyone who still thinks that the nice words after abusing someone can wash away the cruelty of previous action. </p>
<p>By the way you make a good Imam. Don't waste your time and apply for one :)</p>
<p>Cheers!!</p> Congratulation Mustafa on you…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2011-05-17:1982180:Comment:6645522011-05-17T14:55:07.470ZMostafahttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/Mostafa375
<p>Congratulation Mustafa on your thorough understanding of Islam and reaching your salvation!!</p>
<p>Good luck with the rest of your adventure! </p>
<p>Congratulation Mustafa on your thorough understanding of Islam and reaching your salvation!!</p>
<p>Good luck with the rest of your adventure! </p> I'd like to know who translat…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2011-05-17:1982180:Comment:6641332011-05-17T04:54:59.450ZDeniz Mustafahttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/DenizMustafa
<p>I'd like to know who translated those verses as I checked three different translations and for the first verse it says the term nushuz is arrogance? This was a verse I have investigated many times before and the term means something along the lines of rebellion, meaning disloyalty or ill behavior. The actions of advice come first and if she persists on ill behavior, then comes separation of beds, and if after that she persists a beating is the final step. Yet as I have said before, after a…</p>
<p>I'd like to know who translated those verses as I checked three different translations and for the first verse it says the term nushuz is arrogance? This was a verse I have investigated many times before and the term means something along the lines of rebellion, meaning disloyalty or ill behavior. The actions of advice come first and if she persists on ill behavior, then comes separation of beds, and if after that she persists a beating is the final step. Yet as I have said before, after a perceived violent verse comes one that is peaceful. The next two ayats talk about how if there is no hope the couple should divorce or have 2 representatives of the couple and try to reconcile, followed by God saying how we should treat our parents, companions, relatives, slaves and etc. in a kind manner.</p>
<p>Not to mention the fact that the word for "beat" in arabic also means "to go away from", an interpretation of that would much more likely fit the surrounding context and make sense. Still remember that most of the world was devoid of women's right until a hundred or two years ago, and a man dominated society would have seen the word as "beat" to justify their actions while it is obviously more just to go with the second meaning which has a better overall fit in the context. The firmness of "beat" also comes from the hadith as well so theres that issue again.</p>
<p>Thank you for proving my point when I was talking earlier about how these "evil" verses are simply taken out of context and the subject of these verses are people who are not the best examples of humanity.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>(Short link to an explanation using Quranic clues only, if you are interested) <a href="http://www.quran-islam.org/articles/beating_women_%28P1179%29.html" target="_blank">http://www.quran-islam.org/articles/beating_women_%28P1179%29.html</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p>Onto your 2nd cited verse, which is not quoted completely, does not say a man can go to his wife whenever he wants but rather however he wants. This was done in order to free up some of the sexual taboo surrounding sex especially by looking at earlier religions such as Judaim where oral, anal, and such are forbidden.</p>
<p>Also the whole sowing of seeds and cultivation and such simply refers to making babies.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Where does it say women have a choice? They have a choice in their husband, thus they have a choice of whom they can sleep with and if they are not happy they can divorce. All this is to be found in the verses following the one which you provided from Al-Baqara. Isn't that such a beautiful thing?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Also I'd like to apologize to Sassan for I had thought he had replied to my previous post by simply reposting his earlier submition as the forum layout made me believe so. Sorry about that!! =p</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p> Here is another one that give…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2011-05-17:1982180:Comment:6640512011-05-17T03:19:52.061ZMostafahttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/Mostafa375
<p>Here is another one that gives man decision power again leaving woman no real choice Al Bakara 223:</p>
<p>"<span id="verse_230_language_6_content">Your wives are a place of sowing of seed for you, so come to your place of cultivation however you wish."</span></p>
<p><span>Now you please show a verse that gives women real choice, not 'obeying'. <br/></span></p>
<p>Here is another one that gives man decision power again leaving woman no real choice Al Bakara 223:</p>
<p>"<span id="verse_230_language_6_content">Your wives are a place of sowing of seed for you, so come to your place of cultivation however you wish."</span></p>
<p><span>Now you please show a verse that gives women real choice, not 'obeying'. <br/></span></p> Here is the verse you are loo…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2011-05-17:1982180:Comment:6640472011-05-17T03:11:17.789ZMostafahttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/Mostafa375
<p>Here is the verse you are looking for An-nisa 34:</p>
<p>"<span id="verse_527_language_6_content">But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them."</span></p>
<p><span>Basically if a wife says no the Quaran allows the husband to 'strike' her but if she 'obeys' then seek no means against her, the woman has no real choice…</span></p>
<p>Here is the verse you are looking for An-nisa 34:</p>
<p>"<span id="verse_527_language_6_content">But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them."</span></p>
<p><span>Basically if a wife says no the Quaran allows the husband to 'strike' her but if she 'obeys' then seek no means against her, the woman has no real choice here.<br/></span></p>
<p> </p> From the very beginning i sta…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2011-05-17:1982180:Comment:6640002011-05-17T02:16:54.762ZDeniz Mustafahttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/DenizMustafa
<p>From the very beginning i stated that I simply picked up the Quran and read it, my family is atheist and I never had any schooling or knowledge of Islam. Before coming to the Quran I did investigate other religions such as Wicken, Christianity, and practiced Buddhism for a little bit. Given that I did not understand a portion of it I would simply try looking into it through the internet in various sites.</p>
<p>I also read the article and its just an opinion of his, there was absolutely no…</p>
<p>From the very beginning i stated that I simply picked up the Quran and read it, my family is atheist and I never had any schooling or knowledge of Islam. Before coming to the Quran I did investigate other religions such as Wicken, Christianity, and practiced Buddhism for a little bit. Given that I did not understand a portion of it I would simply try looking into it through the internet in various sites.</p>
<p>I also read the article and its just an opinion of his, there was absolutely no backup whatsoever to his claim in the article other than <span style="text-decoration: underline;">his</span> belief that we all happened to be here by chance. Do not act like just because they are famous scientists that they have no faults within their thinking or theories, any study of the history of the development of modern science will show you.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Sassan my friend, again you are misinterpreting. If you read my earlier posts yu would realize what I have said about these violent verses To quote my earlier self as you did</p>
<p>"All of the things I read which seemed aggressive towards other people was towards a certain group of people, either those who chased out the muslims from Mecca and then started attacking the muslims FIRST or those traitors who helped the enemy. Simply said anything in those two suras dealing with them cannot necessarily be called cruel because these verses are relating to situations in war and these things are common retaliations even in modern wars.</p>
<p>Yes when escaped to Medina he attacked caravans and such from Mecca but what does that mean? Disrupting trade and means of production of an enemy is a common strategy of war, in which he was involved with at the time. The Quran even says if they stop attacking and seek peace that the muslims should stop."</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Also I would truly appreciate it if you could provide me with the verse about the woman who cannot say no to sexual advances by a man as I asked in my earlier post. Also it would be nice if you could provide some examples of your other claims as well, which should be of no trouble considering you have ruined the Quran with your understanding of it.</p> Hi Mustafa
Just a simple ques…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2011-05-16:1982180:Comment:6636432011-05-16T20:17:33.759ZMostafahttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/Mostafa375
<p>Hi Mustafa</p>
<p>Just a simple question? If you were not Muslim what made you just read Quraan and dismiss lots of other religious books let say from Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity. Please, please don't claim you read Quraan unbiased. Reading such an unstructured book like Quraan will give huge headache for an independent reader. I am surprised you didn't get one!!!</p>
<p>By the way check this link and see what a prominent scientist of all times has to say about one of the…</p>
<p>Hi Mustafa</p>
<p>Just a simple question? If you were not Muslim what made you just read Quraan and dismiss lots of other religious books let say from Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity. Please, please don't claim you read Quraan unbiased. Reading such an unstructured book like Quraan will give huge headache for an independent reader. I am surprised you didn't get one!!!</p>
<p>By the way check this link and see what a prominent scientist of all times has to say about one of the cornerstones of Islam: </p>
<p><a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/may/15/stephen-hawking-interview-there-is-no-heaven?mobile-redirect=false" target="_blank">http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/may/15/stephen-hawking-interview-there-is-no-heaven?mobile-redirect=false</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p>Stop wasting your time to justify fairy tales of the past. Enter the real world and accept the world as it is!!</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Cheers</p>
<p>Mostafa</p>
<p> </p> Sorry for the long delay in a…tag:www.thinkatheist.com,2011-05-16:1982180:Comment:6634852011-05-16T18:39:36.385ZDeniz Mustafahttp://www.thinkatheist.com/profile/DenizMustafa
<p>Sorry for the long delay in a response, I just got with my final exams so now I have some time to reply again.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I did not realize simply by reading the Quran that it was to be the pure fact, I checked anything questionable I had about it so see whether it was true through the many information sites located in the internet.</p>
<p>You say you didn't use any hadith in the discussion but that is not true because you say Muhammad married an 8 year old, that age and story comes…</p>
<p>Sorry for the long delay in a response, I just got with my final exams so now I have some time to reply again.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I did not realize simply by reading the Quran that it was to be the pure fact, I checked anything questionable I had about it so see whether it was true through the many information sites located in the internet.</p>
<p>You say you didn't use any hadith in the discussion but that is not true because you say Muhammad married an 8 year old, that age and story comes from the hadith.</p>
<p>You say I need to read the Quran by taking off my muslim goggles... but I wasn't even a muslim when I read it, thus I never even had them on. And on this point that the Quran sounds threatening to non Muslims was one I did not find, simply because I did not isolate the verses from its actual meaning and read about it in its intended context.</p>
<p>I like how you try to say the same message was not around 1000 years before Muhammad, Jews were there and the basic values of the Torah and Quran are the same. Also I love how you say how these people with 20 deities were great intellectuals, yeah right... Have you even read their mythologies? The reason they thought natural phenomena occurred are absurd!</p>
<p> </p>
<p>As for Sassan, I can tell you ruined the Quran because you seemed to have completely misunderstood its message. Its actually the opposite of what you say, anytime there is a violent verse or group of verses the next ones will be the peaceful ones!</p>
<p>I'd like to see where it says women cannot say no to a man's sexual advances when a SLAVE girl has the right to say no if she does not want to have sex to a man and he has to honor that, thus you cannot simply "do as you please"</p>
<p>Muslims around the world are acting all crazy not because of the Quran but what the contradictory hadith teach and it is the hadith that promote the killing of all nonbelievers, since you've "ruined" the Quran i'd appreciate it if you could show me the verse talking about that.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Here is a link at the effects of the hadith if any of you are slightly interested. It's a book so you can skip to whereever you want, if any of you are actually interested lol.</p>
<p><a href="http://thehadithconspiracy.blogspot.com/2009/07/hadith-re-evaluation.html" target="_blank">http://thehadithconspiracy.blogspot.com/2009/07/hadith-re-evaluation.html</a></p>