before ya'll bash our soldiers

but nazi germany was intentionally taking over countries, invading them. they never once were liberating.

Agreed. However what do you think the German citizens believed? What do you think the soldiers believed? Do you think that the German citizens and
soldiers believed themselves to be the monsters they were. I'm sure a large majority of them believed the propaganda they were being given. They
believed their war to be a noble one. They believed their Country to be under attack and that a preemptive war was necessary. Hell, they may have even
been told that they were in fact liberating the Countries they were invading.

We are now talking about a war with Iran, North Korea, etc... Our Country is broke. Our citizens fat, depressed, hopeless. Maybe we can take a rest on
all the liberation and focus on our own problems for a while, huh?

there is not a single person i know serving right now who joined thinking "i cant wait to get in there and do messed up things in the name of my
messed up government!"

I don't think anyone is accusing them of that. I certainly am not. I can appreciate the fact that many enlisted believing they were protecting their
Country. However I find it shameful that when some of these posters have made comments against the wars they have been attacked. Do they not have a
point? Are they not entitled to have a perspective?

I have not nor will i ever attack anyone who is against the current war.

the problem that i have comes in when you see posters calling us military types "baby killers" "mindless killing machines" "evil mass
murderers"

we are not like that. we are doing what we can with what we in in the capacaty that is allowed us.

maybe i can join the military and be that soldier on the front that is trying to make a good name for the US by doing the right thing in the face of
adversity. the people that are face to face with the inhabitants of any country we occupy have it in THIER hands to do the right thing, even if the
government is not ther efor pure reasons.

this cannot entail simply not going to war, or not defending ourselves, but when we interact with the local people, and we do so with compassion and
care, we make a difference.

the problem that i have comes in when you see posters calling us military types "baby killers" "mindless killing machines" "evil mass
murderers"

I can understand how a soldier would find that offensive. I think people in this Country are beginning to feel betrayed be their Government. As a
soldier you are part of the enforcing arm of the Government. People are fearful of what the U.S. military is capable of. It certainly doesn't help
when some have, in this thread alone, made comments about shooting those with a dissenting view point.

-----------
Denial is a defense mechanism postulated by Sigmund Freud, in which a person is faced with a fact that is too uncomfortable to accept and rejects it
instead, insisting that it is not true despite what may be overwhelming evidence. The subject may use:

simple denial - deny the reality of the unpleasant fact altogether
minimisation - admit the fact but deny its seriousness, or
projection - to assume that other people around you are feeling the same, or to accuse someone of doing what you are to feel better about your own
situation so that you can help them out of it, helping you out of it.
-----------

There is plenty of evidence on ATS suggesting he wasn't a tyrant and didn't gas the Kurds, and even more evidence outside of ATS. Regardless, use a
search engine instead of relying on Fox and MSNBC to provide you with info.

I know guys and gals in the military that hate war, hate this war, but still serve.

They're hypocrites.

They feel that their being there can change things and maybe make things better for the next group coming along.

They are wishful thinkers, blinded by a false sense of morality that has been thrust upon them by leaders blinded by greed.

Since they aren't bitch artists when it comes to deploying, I have no problems with their attitude.

Let me try to wrap my head around your repeated accusations of denial and indoctrination.

Would you like the entirety of the US military to stop all action across the board? As someone who will be contracted as a reserve, I have no idea
where or even IF I'll be deployed. Are you saying that there is not ONE thing that our soldiers do that isn't of some good?

Sir, you are not fit for conversation. Broad-based thought is not something that works in the complex world we live in today. Not everything is black
and white, and the actions of the US government are certainly grey. But grey doesn't mean there isn't a lot of good being done.

I understand your anger, I do. In a perfect world, war would be non-existent and the unemployment line would be much shorter, but this world is very
far from perfect.

Because you are an American citizen, you'll never have the privilege of having no military to protect your interests. I know you'd much rather live
in an impoverished nation with no security so you can fend for yourself and for your family, but unfortunately there are people with your better
welfare in mind.

The military is misused on a grand scale, but that doesn't mean that there aren't many places in the world (especially the land you stand on today)
that aren't improved 10 fold by the brave young men and women in the service.

Originally posted by EMPIRE
There is plenty of evidence on ATS suggesting he wasn't a tyrant and didn't gas the Kurds, and even more evidence outside of ATS. Regardless, use a
search engine instead of relying on Fox and MSNBC to provide you with info.

Wow, on ATS??? That powerhouse of world intelligence?

Now that's a first.

Sorry to break your heart, but Saddam was a tyrant. Maybe if you actually spent some time in the ME instead of relying on a search engine for your
info, you'd have figured this out.

Try going to Kuwait City and seeing the museum they have for people that were "disappeared" when Saddam overran the country during the First Gulf
War. You might change your tune.

Originally posted by EMPIRE
They're hypocrites.

Nope, just motivated individuals doing their part to try to make things better in this world.

Originally posted by EMPIRE
They are wishful thinkers, blinded by a false sense of morality that has been thrust upon them by leaders blinded by greed.

Yeah, maybe they are "wishful thinkers", but they are mainly medics and have been doing a great job treating civilian and military wounded. And what
have you done lately?

Originally posted by EMPIRE
Of course you wouldn't have a problem with it.

Well, if you're in the military, you might as well get use to the idea you're going to deploy.

There is plenty of evidence on ATS suggesting he wasn't a tyrant and didn't gas the Kurds, and even more evidence outside of ATS. Regardless, use a
search engine instead of relying on Fox and MSNBC to provide you with info.

Really? Ask his son in laws....wait, he murdered them. Ask any of "Saddam's Flowers"? Wait, he murdered them as well. Ask any of the generals
that he shot during meetings...oops...they are dead too......

With this statement you’ve committed two fallacies. Moreover, you’re laughing out loud as if I said ATS was a powerhouse of world intelligence,
yet you clearly said nothing about the fact that I said more info pertaining to the subject was to be found OUTSIDE of ATS.

Sorry to break your heart, but Saddam was a tyrant. Maybe if you actually spent some time in the ME instead of relying on a search engine for
your info, you'd have figured this out.

Spending time in the Mideast is not a prerequisite to knowing if Saddam was a tyrant or not. Logic friend, you need to apply it before you press the
post reply button.

Try going to Kuwait City and seeing the museum they have for people that were "disappeared" when Saddam overran the country during the First
Gulf War. You might change your tune.

See above, sport.

Nope, just motivated individuals doing their part to try to make things better in this world.

No, they’re hypocrites.

Yeah, maybe they are "wishful thinkers", but they are mainly medics and have been doing a great job treating civilian and military wounded.
And what have you done lately?

I’ve done a lot, but my belief system strictly forbids me from telling you about how I help as it falls along the lines of bragging, and there is no
reward for promoting it. But rest assured, I do help.

Well, if you're in the military, you might as well get use to the idea you're going to deploy.

Deploy and wage war while killing hundreds of thousands of citizens, bravo!

Let me try to wrap my head around your repeated accusations of denial and indoctrination.

Accusations that have clearly been supported...

Would you like the entirety of the US military to stop all action across the board? As someone who will be contracted as a reserve, I have no
idea where or even IF I'll be deployed. Are you saying that there is not ONE thing that our soldiers do that isn't of some good?

This is a fallacy, and you don’t understand my premise. To answer your first question, a question rooted in a quagmire of idiocy and illogical
thought, the answer is--it depends. It depends if those actions involve America destroying infrastructures under the guise of liberation, America
waging war due to faulty intel, America enforcing it’s rule and thought on sovereign nations, etc. If this is the case America needs to stop.

As someone who will be contracted as a reserve, you’re complying with whatever they tell you, and your views have taken a back seat.

In regards to the soldiers, if there is any good, and that is a mighty big if, the bad has outweighed the good.

Sir, you are not fit for conversation. Broad-based thought is not something that works in the complex world we live in today. Not everything is
black and white, and the actions of the US government are certainly grey. But grey doesn't mean there isn't a lot of good being done.

You are correct, I’m not fit to converse with the hypocrites, and gelatinous sponges, who do nothing but soak the venom, lies, and hatred from the
higher ups and smear it on other nations.

I understand your anger, I do. In a perfect world, war would be non-existent and the unemployment line would be much shorter, but this world is
very far from perfect.

This is where you’re wrong. I’m not angry, and people who think like you tend to feel that those with opposing sentiments and views are angry.
I’m simply showing you’re a hypocrite, that many people in this thread are hypocrites, that the leaders of this country are hypocrites, etc.

Because you are an American citizen, you'll never have the privilege of having no military to protect your interests.

LOL! This is so silly it doesn’t need to be addressed.

I know you'd much rather live in an impoverished nation with no security so you can fend for yourself and for your family, but unfortunately
there are people with your better welfare in mind.

See above, sport.

The military is misused on a grand scale,

And somehow you think you won’t be misused? You don’t even know where you’re going sport...

but that doesn't mean that there aren't many places in the world (especially the land you stand on today) that aren't improved 10 fold by
the brave young men and women in the service.

Santa, you’ve been hoodwinked and simply regurgitate what you’ve been brainwashed to believe.

In closing, you’ve done nothing to address my claims of indoctrination and denial, and have actually once again shown you’re in denial and a
student of American military/patriot indoctrination.

Originally posted by EMPIRE
With this statement you’ve committed two fallacies. Moreover, you’re laughing out loud as if I said ATS was a powerhouse of world intelligence,
yet you clearly said nothing about the fact that I said more info pertaining to the subject was to be found OUTSIDE of ATS.

Well, how about this, Gus. I doubt world intelligence offices are logging into ATS to get the gist of what's going on in the world.

And yeah, you did say "outside ATS". Big deal.

Originally posted by EMPIRE
Spending time in the Mideast is not a prerequisite to knowing if Saddam was a tyrant or not. Logic friend, you need to apply it before you press the
post reply button.

Logic, friend. You need to use it before you press the reply button. If you don't think Saddam was a tyrant, how about hopping a plane to Kuwait City
and discuss that with the people there. Take a walk thru that museum that I mentioned. I guess they are all just lying about having family members
taken away, only to be found dead in some mass grave. Or the photos I saw of remains of people that did the "Saddam Woodchipper Ride" or were dipped
in acid.

But you're right. These aren't the actions of a tyrant. My mistake.

Originally posted by EMPIRE
No, they’re hypocrites.

Wrong again, sport.

Question: What about Quakers during WW2 that were against war, yet enlisted and became medics? Just a bunch of hypocrites,
too, huh?

Originally posted by EMPIRE
I’ve done a lot, but my belief system strictly forbids me from telling you about how I help as it falls along the lines of bragging, and there is no
reward for promoting it. But rest assured, I do help.

And I bet you have. Sharing in Obama's Nobel Prize for wishful thinking, ain't you?

Originally posted by EMPIRE
Deploy and wage war while killing hundreds of thousands of citizens, bravo!

Ah, yes, I was wondering when that comment would rear it's head. Once again, you're right. The US Military is there just killing citizens with
gleeful abandon. Not a single person has been killed by insurgents, right?

Well, how about this, Gus. I doubt world intelligence offices are logging into ATS to get the gist of what's going on in the world.

Straw Man.

And yeah, you did say "outside ATS". Big deal.

It is a big deal as you were poisoning the well, as well as relying on other fallacies, to paint the picture that I was implying that ATS was THE
source for info, when I never implied this.

Logic, friend. You need to use it before you press the reply button. If you don't think Saddam was a tyrant, how about hopping a plane to
Kuwait City and discuss that with the people there. Take a walk thru that museum that I mentioned. I guess they are all just lying about having family
members taken away, only to be found dead in some mass grave. Or the photos I saw of remains of people that did the "Saddam Woodchipper Ride" or
were dipped in acid.

Again, spending time in the Mideast is not a prerequisite to knowing if Saddam was a tyrant or not. Logic friend, you need to apply it before you
press the post reply button.

But you're right. These aren't the actions of a tyrant. My mistake.

See above, and if he were a tyrant, who is to blame for his tyranny? Oh, he sprung into power on his own right?

Wrong again, sport.

Question: What about Quakers during WW2 that were against war, yet enlisted and became medics? Just a bunch of
hypocrites, too, huh?

Yes, hypocrites. Even my father, a decorated WWII vet, who was forced to join told me if he had to do it all over again he would *not* have. Again,
this guy Santa is a hypocrite, has YET to actually deny the claim but keeps typing replies that prove it again and again.

And I bet you have. Sharing in Obama's Nobel Prize for wishful thinking, ain't you?

This type of questioning is misleading and deceitful. You’re doing it to see where my political leanings are. Friend, I don’t endorse Barry O or
any president, or candidate. I don’t believe in the charade of “voting” and know partaking in such lunacy is for the feeble minded.

Ah, yes, I was wondering when that comment would rear it's head. Once again, you're right. The US Military is there just killing citizens
with gleeful abandon. Not a single person has been killed by insurgents, right?

It happens, many soldiers are killing with gleeful abandon. Yes indurgents have done their share of killing, but have the insurgents done things at
the level of America and her cronies? Nope.

Originally posted by EMPIRE
Again, spending time in the Mideast is not a prerequisite to knowing if Saddam was a tyrant or not. Logic friend, you need to apply it before you
press the post reply button.

Logic isn't your friend, huh? Well, you can go about getting info from whatever internet site you want, and I'll get it with my own eyes. I guess
all those people in Kuwait were just liars, huh?

Originally posted by EMPIRE
See above, and if he were a tyrant, who is to blame for his tyranny? Oh, he sprung into power on his own right?

Once again, logic. Give it a try sometime. I don't think anyone was twisting Saddam's arm when he was killing people for his own jollies. Try again,
Craftsman.

He was a tyrant, and it was because of the course of his own actions.

Originally posted by EMPIRE
It happens, many soldiers are killing with gleeful abandon. Yes indurgents have done their share of killing, but have the insurgents done things at
the level of America and her cronies? Nope.

Really? So US troops are worse than insurgents, huh? Lemme guess, you got that from some internet site, right? Stick with porn, you'll be better off.

Insurgents willfully set off bombs in markets, etc, and kill women and children. They kidnap people, and their bodies are found tortured and beheaded
in mass graves. US troops that are captured are tortured, mutilated and executed.

But US troops are worse. Right.

I don't think you are having problems with logic, but with common sense.

Because you are an American citizen, you'll never have the privilege of having no military to protect your interests.

I think some may argue that the military is not protecting the interest of the American citizens. This Country is bankrupt and this war may just be
another means to transfer wealth. That, unfortunately, is not in America's best interest.

Logic isn't your friend, huh? Well, you can go about getting info from whatever internet site you want, and I'll get it with my own eyes. I
guess all those people in Kuwait were just liars, huh?

Logic and reason are on my side but allude you. Moreover, multiple times I said there are other “sources”, so why are you restricting these
sources to the net and foolishly suggesting one visit the mid east in order to gather info? LOL!

Once again, logic. Give it a try sometime. I don't think anyone was twisting Saddam's arm when he was killing people for his own jollies. Try
again, Craftsman.

If he was killing people, and there is plenty of evidence to suggest many of the charges were false, you have to look at who enabled him to do it.

He was a tyrant, and it was because of the course of his own actions.

So we never were directly or indirectly involved?

Really? So US troops are worse than insurgents, huh?

Absolutely. Insurgents haven’t amassed a civilian death toll that some claim reaches the millions.

Lemme guess, you got that from some internet site, right?

More fallacies. But let us entertain your thought and say I did get it from the net, how does it make it less credible? If being on the net makes it
less credible, that would mean your insanity laden suggestions that one visit the mid east are less credible because they’re on the net and you
typed it. However, we know the real truth as to why your suggestions don’t make sense, so you’ve backed yourself into a corner with this one,
thanks.

Stick with porn, you'll be better off.

Old school or new school stuff?

Insurgents willfully set off bombs in markets, etc, and kill women and children. They kidnap people, and their bodies are found tortured and
beheaded in mass graves. US troops that are captured are tortured, mutilated and executed.

And American troops have dropped bombs on entire cities, raped women, killed children, kidnapped and murdered the innocent, etc.

But US troops are worse. Right.

I don't think you are having problems with logic, but with common sense.

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