anjali wrote:It still seems to leave unanswered the original question of whether 1) resting in the natural state also melts the "frozen block of ice" of the Buddha nature,

Per Gampopa's instructions to Phagmo Drupa, yes, it does, which is the Dakpo Kagyu standard, known as the "Panacea." So this is in accord with Dzogchen. Garchen Rinpoche is can teach on many levels too.

anjali wrote:and 2) whether there is any essential preference for resting or cultivating.

Cultivating is done at the beginning of the session, as well as at the end via dedication. So the main practice is resting.

When you get angry, your mind becomes unhappy and narrow like a block of ice. The very nature of love is happiness. That is what it is. The very nature of self-centered emotions is suffering.

A great analogy Expressing a quality, for example steam or ice, may melt or redirect the flow. It is residing in and knowing the inner nature and how it relates to others that enables this further hydration.

Hard to add anything to Garchen Rinpoche's complete, clear, wise and kindly presentation of the matter.

So, just a personal reflection. How to make water out of ice.

If I want to go into the natural mind when I am distracted, one of the best ways that I know is to push out the 4 great immeasureables:

Loving kindness - May all beings have happines and the causes of happiness.Compassion - May all beings be free from suffering and the causes of suffering.Equanimity - May all beings be blessed with equanimity and a peaceful mind.Sympathetic good will - If beings are happy - may this continue.

from a golden vajra in my heart, as golden rays of light, in all directions, to the ends of the universe. This is not a thinking but a doing - perhaps a remembering. While I have intention and action at the beginning, I have no intention or action at the end, and it is almost instantaneous.

And there is nothing further to say or do.

Is this super-duper Dzogchen nonconceptual bodhicita or plain-old relative conceptual bodhicitta, is no longer a question.

Homage to the Dzogchen Masters, may they live long, in good health and with success in all things.

Yeah..Lots of people think that dzogchen is easy.But in reality that is very far from the truth.We somehow are given the impression that we get direct introduction and all we have to do is rest in that recognition if we have discovered our state.But how many people can do that from the first try ?How many people can get the state from the first introduction or second third, fifth,tenth,....?1% maybe ?And what do you do if you dont get it ?You train and train and train .And this usually takes years and years .And once you discover your state then you have to stabilize it and this also takes very long time.Lets remember the story of CNNR of him having a dream where his teacher asked about his practice of togal.And his answer was that his not doing togal yet because he thought that his knowledge is not stable enough.And if i am not mistaken he had this dream in the nineties or early 2000..So just look at how many years he's practised dzogchen but he still thought that his rigpa is not stable enough to go into the deeper practices?

Yeah..Lots of people think that dzogchen is easy.But in reality that is very far from the truth.We somehow are given the impression that we get direct introduction and all we have to do is rest in that recognition if we have discovered our state.But how many people can do that from the first try ?How many people can get the state from the first introduction or second third, fifth,tenth,....?1% maybe ?And what do you do if you dont get it ?You train and train and train .And this usually takes years and years .And once you discover your state then you have to stabilize it and this also takes very long time.Lets remember the story of CNNR of him having a dream where his teacher asked about his practice of togal.And his answer was that his not doing togal yet because he thought that his knowledge is not stable enough.And if i am not mistaken he had this dream in the nineties or early 2000..So just look at how many years he's practiced dzogchen but he still thought that his rigpa is not stable enough to go into the deeper practices?

Dear alpha, all and All,

Everybody's view is exactly correct and completely perfect from their viewpoint.Everything you have mentioned is also exactly correct and completely perfect.

But also, everybody hears things differently. Since I am old and my ears are funny, I hear things really differently. In the dream, that I heard about, it was the Dharma King, ChNNR's, depth of Tregchod specifically, that he was referring to, not knowledge in general, or stable integration in Rigpa.

So, in his relating his dream, was ChNNR just being humble in front of his teacher, or was he stating that all of his students must have a stable Tregchod before starting Togal? Was he stating that all of his students must have a dream in which he tells them it is ok now to practice Togal?

You can ask ChNNR if this is important to you. It is not important to me.

TG is not just one of the deeper practices, it is perhaps the deepest practice. For a lazy old guy like me, the Yangti practice of the dark is much easier.I have received the precious TG teachings from ChNNR, on several occasions, and on all, except the last in Tenarife, ANYONE who showed up at the teachings, got the TG. I believe that the TG was not webcast, but a newcomer on their first retreat, received the complete TG practice instructions.

Before attending the TG teachings in Tenarife, each participant had to write a personal e-mail to Rinpoche and receive permission. He has stated that no one was refused. So a brand new practitioner, attending a retreat for the first time, would again, also have received the precious TG teachings, in full.

For me, this is not surprising or inconsistent with anything ChNNR has said before.

The principle is that you start at the top, if that does not work, THEN you keep going down a notch until you find a level of practice that works for you. Rinpoche does not limit his students, and has stated that you can practice Dzogchen from within any formal religious structure: so you can be an "anything" and still practice Dzogchen.

There is no / no requirement that you must feel that you have received the pointing out instructions correctly. Whatever you receive, during the pointing out / direct introduction, is completely perfect and OK for you and your practice. There is no internal or external test to pass, before you go to Dzogchen retreats, or listen to the webcasts, or read the books, or watch the DVDs or listen to the CDs, or DO the practices. You just need the transmission of the reading of the text, which he gives for most practices, on every retreat. If you are taking the Santi Maha Sangha course, then there are tests to pass.

I have received all the precious Teachings of ChNNR, that I have received, without passing any tests. I am attending three or four retreats a year, since 1980. I also hold the holy Longchen Nyingthig and Dudjom Tersar Lineages, again, without passing any tests. I am not stating this for bragging but to point out that even a dummy like me can get a lot of teachings - just by showing up, consistently, and can make a little progress, just by doing a little practice, consistently. In my case, two nundros, a seven month purification of the 6 lokas retreat, a total of 49 days in the dark, 3 glorious Yeshe Lama retreats, and 13 bum of Guru Rinpoche, etc. The etc. includes two TG retreats, in Winter, at the prayer flags above the retreat caves at Tso Pema. Yeah, maybe that is bragging, but I am 66 years old and would share a little of my story. I did not spring up like a mushroom, overnight.

None of which means that I have accomplished anything at all in the Dharma, or know anything about Dzogchen practice, but I am content and I suppose that that means something, at least to me. I am completely content to sit on a low seat.

So to keep on topic, I should mention that I am sharing this information as an expression of relative Bodhicitta, with the sincere wish that it is helpful to someone. Is this something I need to do?

I sincerely don't claim that my post is in any way, a pure from the beginning, spontaneously occurring, natural expression of Dzogchen accomplishment.

Perhaps it is just a strongly held habit that is hard to break.

For me, it is much better to stay quietly, not involve with things too much, and to take Patrul Rinpoche's lived example, and advice, and let it all go.

Homage to the Dzogchen Masters. May they live long, in good health and with success in all things.

PS. Please remember that there are several views about Tregchod and Togal as to which should be taught / stabilized first. In their very precious 7 year series of teachings, the holy Palyul Lineage teaches that the Togal should be taught before the Tregchod.

Sorry, I didn't want to make this all about total.I've only mentioned the togal episode to highlight the length of time it takes until one has reached some kind of stability in the recognition of their own state and overall the difficulty of getting into the true dzogchen knowledge.

As to how some teachers teach togal before treckchod I am a little confused .My understanding is that the vissions will not develop if there is no perfect knowledge of total relaxation and what the real state is.And do we discard all the warnings about how atachement to vissions is so problematic and can block further development ?And how does one while in togal , have the knowledge to make a distinction between mind and its nature if there was no prior training in resting tottaly relaxed ,beyond doubts in the true condition?If that is the case probably the rushens would be enough to approach togal .

Yeah..Lots of people think that dzogchen is easy.But in reality that is very far from the truth.We somehow are given the impression that we get direct introduction and all we have to do is rest in that recognition if we have discovered our state.But how many people can do that from the first try ?How many people can get the state from the first introduction or second third, fifth,tenth,....?1% maybe ?And what do you do if you dont get it ?You train and train and train .And this usually takes years and years .And once you discover your state then you have to stabilize it and this also takes very long time.Lets remember the story of CNNR of him having a dream where his teacher asked about his practice of togal.And his answer was that his not doing togal yet because he thought that his knowledge is not stable enough.And if i am not mistaken he had this dream in the nineties or early 2000..So just look at how many years he's practiced dzogchen but he still thought that his rigpa is not stable enough to go into the deeper practices?

Dear alpha, all and All,

Everybody's view is exactly correct and completely perfect from their viewpoint.Everything you have mentioned is also exactly correct and completely perfect.

But also, everybody hears things differently. Since I am old and my ears are funny, I hear things really differently. In the dream, that I heard about, it was the Dharma King, ChNNR's, depth of Tregchod specifically, that he was referring to, not knowledge in general, or stable integration in Rigpa.

So, in his relating his dream, was ChNNR just being humble in front of his teacher, or was he stating that all of his students must have a stable Tregchod before starting Togal? Was he stating that all of his students must have a dream in which he tells them it is ok now to practice Togal?

You can ask ChNNR if this is important to you. It is not important to me.

TG is not just one of the deeper practices, it is perhaps the deepest practice. For a lazy old guy like me, the Yangti practice of the dark is much easier.I have received the precious TG teachings from ChNNR, on several occasions, and on all, except the last in Tenarife, ANYONE who showed up at the teachings, got the TG. I believe that the TG was not webcast, but a newcomer on their first retreat, received the complete TG practice instructions.

Before attending the TG teachings in Tenarife, each participant had to write a personal e-mail to Rinpoche and receive permission. He has stated that no one was refused. So a brand new practitioner, attending a retreat for the first time, would again, also have received the precious TG teachings, in full.

For me, this is not surprising or inconsistent with anything ChNNR has said before.

The principle is that you start at the top, if that does not work, THEN you keep going down a notch until you find a level of practice that works for you. Rinpoche does not limit his students, and has stated that you can practice Dzogchen from within any formal religious structure: so you can be an "anything" and still practice Dzogchen.

There is no / no requirement that you must feel that you have received the pointing out instructions correctly. Whatever you receive, during the pointing out / direct introduction, is completely perfect and OK for you and your practice. There is no internal or external test to pass, before you go to Dzogchen retreats, or listen to the webcasts, or read the books, or watch the DVDs or listen to the CDs, or DO the practices. You just need the transmission of the reading of the text, which he gives for most practices, on every retreat. If you are taking the Santi Maha Sangha course, then there are tests to pass.

I have received all the precious Teachings of ChNNR, that I have received, without passing any tests. I am attending three or four retreats a year, since 1980. I also hold the holy Longchen Nyingthig and Dudjom Tersar Lineages, again, without passing any tests. I am not stating this for bragging but to point out that even a dummy like me can get a lot of teachings - just by showing up, consistently, and can make a little progress, just by doing a little practice, consistently. In my case, two nundros, a seven month purification of the 6 lokas retreat, a total of 49 days in the dark, 3 glorious Yeshe Lama retreats, and 13 bum of Guru Rinpoche, etc. The etc. includes two TG retreats, in Winter, at the prayer flags above the retreat caves at Tso Pema. Yeah, maybe that is bragging, but I am 66 years old and would share a little of my story. I did not spring up like a mushroom, overnight.

None of which means that I have accomplished anything at all in the Dharma, or know anything about Dzogchen practice, but I am content and I suppose that that means something, at least to me. I am completely content to sit on a low seat.

So to keep on topic, I should mention that I am sharing this information as an expression of relative Bodhicitta, with the sincere wish that it is helpful to someone. Is this something I need to do?

I sincerely don't claim that my post is in any way, a pure from the beginning, spontaneously occurring, natural expression of Dzogchen accomplishment.

Perhaps it is just a strongly held habit that is hard to break.

For me, it is much better to stay quietly, not involve with things too much, and to take Patrul Rinpoche's lived example, and advice, and let it all go.

Homage to the Dzogchen Masters. May they live long, in good health and with success in all things.

PS. Please remember that there are several views about Tregchod and Togal as to which should be taught / stabilized first. In their very precious 7 year series of teachings, the holy Palyul Lineage teaches that the Togal should be taught before the Tregchod.

Good post once more ... as I'm also an old man, I will only keep a little part of it, which I presume is essential to comprehend Chögyal Namkhai Norbu's compassionate way to teach : "The principle is that you start at the top, if that does not work, THEN you keep going down a notch until you find a level of practice that works for you. " ... THEN, only then.

Sönam

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.- Longchen Rabjam -

[What alpha wrote is in plain text, and my answers are in italics. OB]Sorry, I didn't want to make this all about togal.I've only mentioned the togal episode to highlight the length of time it takes until one has reached some kind of stability in the recognition of their own state and overall the difficulty of getting into the true dzogchen knowledge.

I think that for some it is difficult and for some it is easy. I pray that for you, and everyone, it will be easy.

As to how some teachers teach togal before treckchod I am a little confused .My understanding is that the vissions will not develop if there is no perfect knowledge of total relaxation and what the real state is.

This is a good question. Since I have not undergone the Palyul training, I don't know how they teach this. I have received the transmission of the Vajra Laughs from Venerable HH Kyabjé Drubwang Pema Norbu Rinpoche (Penor Rinpoche) and have complete confidence in their lineage and that whatever they are doing is correct. I imagine that they have a method of direct introduction that allows the togal to function, or perhaps they include a limited set of the Trekcho practices before teaching Togal.

And do we discard all the warnings about how atachement to vissions is so problematic and can block further development ?

Also a very good question. I imagine that whatever method that they use for direct introduction is sufficient to allow for the visions to develop without attachment.

And how does one while in togal, have the knowledge to make a distinction between mind and its nature if there was no prior training in resting tottaly relaxed ,beyond doubts in the true condition?If that is the case probably the rushens would be enough to approach togal .

Again, very good questions. Again, my answer is the same, which is that I suspect that they must have some powerful method of direct introduction that creates a stable basis for the separation of mind from the nature of mind, which then allows for the Togal to function. The key point of Togal, and of all Dzogchen practice, is the non-dual integration with what arises. This is not an intellectual distinction between mind and nature of mind. There is no naming involved at all (and you couldn't if you wanted to: like trying to write on water or air).

The rushens, semzins and the purification of the 6 lokas are 3 practices of Trekcho and are, in my limited experience, approach practices to Togal.

It is much better that you put these questions to your root lama, and take his, or her, good advice. I think that one's attitude as to what practices to do first, should come from one's root Lama, and you should have complete confidence in their instructions.

Please, old timers, feel free to jump in and add anything, or correct anything as to what I am saying. These are only one old guy's views.

I should add, just to keep this thread on topic, that I have never met any of the Old Ones of Tibet who did not practice relative Bodhicitta.

Vernerable HH Chatral Rinpoche sponsors an animal rescue every year and so do many of the Old Ones. It is a marvelous practice and I highly recommend it.

Adamantine wrote:I recently asked Garchen Rinpoche a question about this. And as many of you may know, he teaches Dzogchen very openly, having been a close disciple of Khenpo Munsel in prison for 20 years or so in occupied Tibet. He is a great yogi, and had the opportunity to put the teachings to the test in one of the most difficult circumstances one could imagine in the human realm. He also really emphasizes bodhicitta in all his teachings. Here is the question and answer below:

Rinpoche, you often mention the importance of compassion and love as the essence of practice and realization. How do we cultivate it without it being contrived? I have been taught that compassion is a naturally arising quality of the spontaneous natureof mind, so is it more important to spend time trying to rest in the natural state, or to try to cultivate relative bodhichitta through other methods?

Garchen Rinpoche: Although the quality of unconditioned compassion is inborn to our nature,temporarily our buddha nature is like a frozen block of ice. Its nature is always like pure water; it has neither turned into a rock nor has it ever become defiled. Nevertheless, due to the condition of self-grasping—which is like cold weather—ithas frozen into a block of ice. Ice has the quality of water, but it must be actualized by melting. We melt the ice of self-grasping by cultivating the warmth of compassion. When the ice is melted and becomes flowing water, we realize the actual quality of water, the vast oceanic dharmakaya within which all buddhas areone. We all have love, but due to self-grasping, it manifests as attachment. We love,or are attached to, those beings that are pleasing to us. We feel compassion for them because we love them. But because we cling to a self, this love is not all embracing, but is biased through the ego's wishes. However, we can utilize this biased love and consider that all sentient beings have been our kind mothers. How does this love feel as the limitation of bias collapses? It is very natural. Everyone is the same; thereis a compassion for all beings, even if they are not in your field of vision. When this is eventually habituated, it will become effortless. However, if we allow it to be interrupted by the ego, if we get jealous and angry, then the mind becomes narrow again. If you really love someone, no matter how troublesome they are, you will always love them and thus will tolerate their temporary moods. When you love others, your mind is very relaxed and happy. When you get angry, your mind becomes unhappy and narrow like a block of ice. The very nature of love is happiness. That is what it is. The very nature of self-centered emotions is suffering.

Nothing but love for Garchen Rinpoche.

I was at his center in Arizona a few months back. As I was driving up the long dirt road, before reaching the gonpa, I found myself laughing and saying "There's always a dirt road!" But who cares if at the end of that dirt road you find such a being?

Long life to such a master.

He wasn't there the day of my visit. No problem. Just happy to be there. It was cold and windy with a slight bit of rain that day. Didn't matter. I was able to walk around the stupa seven times. Places pennies on the shrines. Gush a bit with the ani-to-be in the office. Stand in the shrine room. All wonderful opportunities.

Now when I attend his teachings online, I can see exactly where they are. It helped to visit. I'm happy to have done so.

The world needs the people who will teach us about love and kindness more than ever. How to not be afraid to open or re-open our hearts. How to keep them open in the face of terrible forces to the contrary. And how to let that very openness transform what has been hidden away in the dark.

When I returned to my fathers house that day, I became ill. For two days, the poisons in my body emerged. No problem. Just happy to have been there.