Interesting ... I had heard of tube rectifiers (AC to DC), which are supposed to improve the amp's performance relative to SS rectifiers. Never heard of tube regulators. No susprise, I'm a neofyte in this field. Thanks ...

The Torii and Mini-Torii have three stages of regulation/rectification; the details are on the pages for the Torii and Mini-Torii. I can attest that this allows one many different possible sound signatures by changing tube types and tube brands in these stages. Part of what makes these amps so special and versatile.

One of the reasons I'd have to say the Torii II worked best for me is that it eliminated the need for a sub. I was running it with a sub, and very good one at that, but in the end, with speakers that will actually make bass, it wasn't necessary. I noticed you mentioned a sub in your other thread. If I had to sum up what's best about a Torii compared to everything else, it would be that it's involving, and like Lon says, you can just enjoy the music and forget the gear.

And one last thing, I don't think a lot of people really appreciate the Torii's PP topology if they havn't heard/owned one of the original onesthat started this lineup. The Torii MK II had a lot to live up to.

Concerning the Zen C vs the Zen Select at the time. I never had opportunity to compare the two, but basically the Select upgraded the rectifier from a 5y3 to a 5u4 and used the wima coupling caps. It was less forgiving of a sub par source (Cd).

Steve's lastest implimentations of all his amps using the voltage regulator tubes; they are being used mostly to help with power conditioning.

Hi Jason. Got it! Thanks. Would that mean, then, that the Zen (relative to the Torii) is less involving? How much less involving would you say?

I made some back-of-the-envelope calculations to check the effect of lower nominal impedance and higher sensitivity of my future speakers, relative to my current SS setup at 50 W/c. Anyway, it's amazing, to say the least! I wanted to attach an image for you to check it out, but the system would not allow it.

The results show a single amp (SE84C+) putting up about 73 W/c equivalent to my current setup, and 128 W/c also equivalent to my current setup, when 2 monoblocks are used. This is the best argument to release the doubt of a SET's real power.

For this reason, I'm changing my speakers' order from the M-Lore (8 Ohm, 95 dBs) to modelt81 (4 Ohm, 95 dBs). Decor wise (my wife is going to kill me!), the former were much better (narrow, tall, fitting), but the latter ones (bulgy, ordinary cubes) ROCK!

Jason, I'm sorry to squeeze the issue, but I think it is important. Let me know what you think about the less involving feeling you have experienced with the SET's, if you will. Thanks for the info. Later ...

Further, these results have been additionally taxed by an error round-up buffer of another 15%. Therefore, I am being very conservative, as I don't think round-up losses are that high, and my linearity assumption for the last dB (from 94 to 95, which should be exponential), is not a gross assumption (at this already steep stage of diminishing returns on the exponential function anyway).

Conclusion: A single Zen Triode definitely can do it. Now is just a matter of minimizing transmission losses (interconnects, speaker cables, Y splitters, etc.).

Room acoustics and the speakers' impedance curve are still unknown variables to confront, though. We'll see. Later ...

Ok, I'll fill in a little more here. I guess it would help to know that the current speakers I'm running are the HDT's. Full range, crossoverless. With the small amps, they do everything extremely well, but on a lot of recordings, they sound lean and thin nad you think to yourself hmm, something is missing. What took them from 'gee that sounds good' to 'Wow!!' was the extra power of the bigger amp and most important the treble cut that the Torii offers. Other speakers will have different requirements.

I guess I would describe it is like this, with a Zen C you will likely have to choose or tweak speakers to find the best match. With a Torii, you can match the amp to just about any reasonably efficient speaker. I look at it as the more expensive amp costs you less in the long run if you don't end up swapping speakers to find that holy grail combination.

Also, don't forget that speaker crossovers steal a lot of power. that's why most of us try to eliminate or minimize them.

Lon, I agree it's would be nice to have an integrated at that same price point. It might be possible, becuase if the plates cost less than the old style box, that savings could be applied elsewhere like regulation.

At any rate, we need to have our opionions heard. Steve!!! Don't drop the integrated, we think it should stay!

Jason, very good point about the Torii being a powerful and adaptable amp that you aren't limited to speaker choices in the way you are with the SET amps. And in my opinion you really don't sacrifice sound quality. . . it's slightly different, but not inferior.

That treble cut circuit is amazing. I believe that Steve posted that it could be added to any of the amps, though I can imagine it might be difficult with the smaller ones. But I can't imagine being without one now, it's the perfect tool. I'd encourage anyone to investigate having it added when ordering, or even retro-fitted.

If it appears that there is sufficient interest in an SE34I.3 EL34 SET Integrated, DECWARE would probably keep making it.

Their business model is based upon their love of audio. As a company they don't introduce models to achieve a certain pre-determined profit margin. In many instances, they roll out a new piece of audio just because they can. Take the MINI TORII for example. Steve took a look at an old 6V6 amp that became the inspiration for the MINI.

If he wanted, he could take the SE34 design and configure it into monoblocks with tube regulation on the outputs. But the integrated would accomplish the same goal; SET sound but with with higher power.

Very useful, nice comments from all you guys, thanks. Ron, I sure hope I can beat that ball park wall!

Hey Lord Soth, I checked your link, liked it. In my case (Zen Triode and Tekton 4 Ohm, 95 dBs), the SPL came at 95.9 dBs. That should do it, don't you think? This is also consistent with my rough power reqs calculations using my current system as reference. BTW, happy new year to you too, Lord Soth.

Jason, your description makes much sense and helps me understand the relative implications. Thanks for that. Also, I think I now understand better the relative contributions of the big PP amps at Decware. Also, contrary to what I learned in the past, apparently a tone/treble control seems very welcome in many practical contexts.

It used to be anathema for an amp to process the source signal (a purist view), alluding added distosion. But the recorded media, in many cases, renders it a practical approach, I guess.

You now, Riv, I started participating in the forum desperately looking to hold on to this integrated model that I thought was ideal for me. Now I'm reconsidering ... I mean, it is an important niche in the Decware line and all, but now I don't feel I depend on it.

I think the logical evolution path most of you have gone through, is more or less the natural and better one: Start with the single Zen Triode or two (monos), or the integrated, and then grow into the more versatile and powerful stuff. You sort of develop an appreciation for the gear as you live with it, and get ready to appreciate what's next in the line range.

Over ten years ago I still had powerful PP monoblocks (VTL 225), and loved the sound, but I always dreamed of a purist SET, especially after reading many people's comments through the years about their special sound. Now, the integrated is two of them in one chassis, and with more power to boot! This combination is a killer. That was my reasoning when I came to the forum.

In retrospective, I guess my audio appreciation evolution path has gone in the opposite direction. Later ...

Just want to mention: Steve's treble cut circuit is not in the signal path, if I understand what he's written it simply allows you to redirect some of the high frequency information as a shunt to ground. No sonic degradation, just a reduction in output of that information. Works brilliantly, and makes about a third of my collection far more listenable. A godsend for me as I want to be able to hear mediocre and worse recordings with enjoyment, and I can.

I think I had read it somewhere in the site too, but it is just difficult to understand how it's filtering the signal without affecting it.

I guess he uses some kind of mini-resistor to cut-off/shunt only the extreme highs (according to the level of tone control set by the user).

Not easy to do right .. That's why the majority of amps that offer tonal control offer either signal manipulation (with agreed loss of signal attributes in the process) or music direct (untouched signal path.) The user has the choice by pressing the button called music direct (to bypass this filtering process).

What is important is that you feel you're not loosing sound quality, and that means the objective has been attained.