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Remember foundationless and small cell are two different things. Cell size will vary with foundationless (natural cell) as it does in the wild!

Indeed. I put out about a hundred foundationless frames this season as a test. Some went into the center of already 'regressed' hives, between frames of drawn 4.9 foundation. I have yet to see a single cluster of cells smaller than 5.1mm.

Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. - Emerson

What's needed at that time...

They're making what they feel is needed at that time. If they're building it bigger than the majority of the brood cells, it's a good chance they're building it for uses other than brood raising. At least that seems to be the result I see from my hives. I'm still sticking to my guns in saying that mine are gradully getting smaller as I move more frames outward and upward, get rid of the old larger cell frames, and place more empty frames in the middle.

If one keeps doing this over a decent period of time and the results are positive, the net result does end up being regression - each following iteration should produce smaller average cell sizes, if done from the middle out. Maybe I'm at a different timeframe here in this area thatn some of you are. As I said in my post it's still going well here. Perhaps this 'season' may peter out soon if some of yours have, I'll just hope for now that it keeps going for a little while. Note: I'm not feeding any of these colonies.

They're making what they feel is needed at that time. If they're building it bigger than the majority of the brood cells, it's a good chance they're building it for uses other than brood raising.

I'm sure that they're making what they feel is needed at that time. In my case, earlier in the season, most of the foundationless frames placed near the middle of the brood nest, between drawn brood frames, were drawn out almost entirely as drone cells. They then started to raise loads of drone brood. While that may be what they wanted it was neither in my best interests nor theirs. In prevarroa times, in feral nests it might have been a different story.

Originally Posted by dug_6238

If one keeps doing this over a decent period of time and the results are positive, the net result does end up being regression - each following iteration should produce smaller average cell sizes, if done from the middle out.

Last year I saw brood cell samples from well over a hundred removals. Like it or not many were well established feral colonies. About 1% were smaller than 5mm.

Keep dreaming. But PLEASE don't try to infect new beekeepers with your fantasies.

Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. - Emerson

What all individuals in a species group "wants" is to spread their genes out into the population to the maximum amount possible. In this case the individual is the hive. They can do this by swarming or by raising drones and spreading their 'seed' that way. A colony can only issue a few swarms a year, but they can issue thousands of drones that have the potential to spread their genetics around. Its all very natural and the way things work. If that has advantages to beekeepers or bees probably depends on whether or not your rearing queens and if you are aggressively culling out the genes you don't want within a 5 mile radius.

Does anybody believe the foundation makers are testing wax for accumulated pesticides?

i have no idea what foundation makers do, but penn state has been testing foundation.

as of march 8, they had tested 5 samples from 5 different suppliers (a very small sample). all 5 samples had fluvalinate and coumaphos. see the "maryann frazier video" on our website:http://www.BeeUntoOthers.com/

If feral colonies are successful at 5 and 5.1, what makes you think that your own colonies won't be successful at that size. I haven't treated in years, nor lost a colony to varroa in that time, and all of mine are on natural cell size. Forcing them to 4.9 sounds like the same logic that got us to 5.4. As to drawing drone, they only do a frame or so of that. You just move it out of the way and they are happy. I don't see excessive drone rearing in my hives. Mountains out of mole hills mostly.

All those big commercial guys using foundation are the same ones reporting CCD. Maybe it's the foundation?

If feral colonies are successful at 5 and 5.1, what makes you think that your own colonies won't be successful at that size. I haven't treated in years, nor lost a colony to varroa in that time, and all of mine are on natural cell size. Forcing them to 4.9 sounds like the same logic that got us to 5.4. As to drawing drone, they only do a frame or so of that. You just move it out of the way and they are happy. I don't see excessive drone rearing in my hives. Mountains out of mole hills mostly.

Ross, I don't think that I would argue against what you're saying. Mine are not at 4.9 and I don't think that what I'm doing would qualify for 'forcing'. I do also need to qualify that I'm not using foundation, so I' sticking to my guns (and the original post gearing) - this was all pointed toward foundationless. I think my number 6 might have been misinterpreted as more than just a light attempt at humor. I don't think anyone here's saying to force them down onto 4.9, or 4.8, or 4.7... I just wanted to put a little something in there for the folks that roll their eyes when they see anything other than "You've got to put them on foundation becuase that's the way my pappy did it and it worked for him for years." Hopefully most folks at least consider using a separate drone comb too and removing or freezing it...that should also be separate from their comb building strategy. I'm still mostly agreeing with you and sc-bee, I think we got hung up on splitting hairs, and maybe the wrong hairs. I don't think any of us are really that far off the mark. Most sound like they're letting nature take it's course.

Originally Posted by beemandan

Keep dreaming. But PLEASE don't try to infect new beekeepers with your fantasies.

We're all friends here. We all have opinions and aren't shy about expressing them. I come off as harsh sometimes when I don't really mean to. I just want people to think outside the box and try some new things.

Keep dreaming. But PLEASE don't try to infect new beekeepers with your fantasies.

Originally Posted by dug_6238

Now there's a guy who got cut off on the way to work.

Not at all. Debates or disagreements of this type donít really upset me. I will have to admit that I find myself annoyed by the small cell crowd telling new beekeepers how simple it is to put their bees on sc. Just drop them onto 4.9 foundation and donít treat. Thatís all you need to do. Used to be the mantra. Now some are acknowledging that it may not be that simple. Iíve been there and done that and I believe that theyíve likely frustrated many a new beekeeper out of an otherwise rewarding hobby.

Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. - Emerson

...I will have to admit that I find myself annoyed by the small cell crowd telling new beekeepers how simple it is to put their bees on sc. Just drop them onto 4.9 foundation and donít treat. Thatís all you need to do. ...

Wow, I don't remember saying that. I'm positive this post was about "foundationless". You've assumed the part about foundation.

Wow, I don't remember saying that. I'm positive this post was about "foundationless". You've assumed the part about foundation.

Actually my main response was to the term 'regressing' which is generally used by the small cell crowd. I just guessed that you were a small cell guy (girl?) My apologies if I was mistaken and you are upset.
You suggested that by inserting foundationless frames in the brood nest you'd see regression over time. I don't believe it.
I suggested that you keep on dreaming.
Then you indicated that you thought my tone was angry.....'got cut off on the way to work' + a smiley face.
My comments about small cell foundation was only in explanation of why I found it troubling that the small cell folks were misleading new beeks. Didn't have a thing to do with the overall thread.
Make sense?????

Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. - Emerson

I got a new nuc from a local Bee Keeper and started a new hive with foundation less frames. Intergrating the 5 frames with foundation. It is going rather well, I have straight combs and good attachments and they even filled a few frames with attachments on all four side. the thing is whereever I had the old foundation frames beside an empty frame, they double the thickness of the comb!

Thats particularly worse where they decided to put honey (corners and side of frames) whereas sections of brood stayed shalower.

What do I do with that? do I shave off thicker part? Remove those frames?

fat/overextended top area on frame

I've had better results and gotten around that (yes I had one that way early on) by working in the foundationeless frames one at a time in the middle. The fat frame got shaved down - put it next to a drawn comb and it'll work itself out nicely.

Long story made short - shave the fat frames. Try to work them into a slot where they're beside another frame that's already drawn. They'll even them up to match pretty evenly. Scratch the cappings (if there are honey cappings) at the tops of the thin ones. Try if you can to add foundationless one at a time in the middle betweeb two drawn or mostly drawn combs (between capped is absolurtely the best, and yeilds the best results). This is the way in which I was able to get it to work the best for me. By doing this you establish the outer bounds for how wide they'll drawn the new comb. One slot for building of a foundationless comb seemed to work best for me - it focuses the bees building attention on that one frame, otherwise if you just alternate a lot of empty frames in with your drawn frames, they seem to go into the mode of spending as much effort (or even more) extending the honey cap on the drawn frames as, where they should be focusing on drawing that new frame. Add a new empty frame in the middle once a week or so, and keep your eye on what kinds of cells they're building in it. Move the older frames outward and upward as you continue this schedule.