Let's not get ahead of ourselves. It goes on to the Senate now, where it will have an ever tougher challenge and will almost certainly be altered. what it will look like when they are done is anyone's guess.Then (assuming the Senate can modify it enough to pass it) it has to go through reconciliation with the House before it gets to DJT.

During that time period the CBO score will come out, as will a lot more analyses by everyone from the AARP to the AMA. There's no telling whether members like the Freedom Caucus will support the Senate's version of the bill or not.

I'm sure this will get butchered in the Senate so I'm not that worried about it yet.

Nevertheless - how goddamn audacious is this considering version 1.0 had approval ratings of what...17%? They made the bill worse, and somehow got a majority to vote for it because...why exactly? Stunning.

I think it gets through the Senate and eventually approved. Repubs always tow the party line no matter how much noise they make before the vote. The only upside is the end of uncertainty so contingency plans can be put into action. I have been basically frozen waiting to see what happens with this issue.

I think it gets through the Senate and eventually approved. Repubs always tow the party line no matter how much noise they make before the vote. The only upside is the end of uncertainty so contingency plans can be put into action. I have been basically frozen waiting to see what happens with this issue.

I feel the same way, as disheartening as this vote is. I can only hope the Senate makes this more palatable.

I think it gets through the Senate and eventually approved. Repubs always tow the party line no matter how much noise they make before the vote. The only upside is the end of uncertainty so contingency plans can be put into action. I have been basically frozen waiting to see what happens with this issue.

I feel the same way, as disheartening as this vote is. I can only hope the Senate makes this more palatable.

I'm sure they'll sprinkle some glitter on this turd of a bill and then start gaslighting the hell out of everyone with assurances that regardless of what independent think tanks say, this is what's best for America. Right now, polls suggest that's is a pretty damn risky gambit, but it's worked for them many times before, so we'll see.

Apparently some of the republicans were chanting "na na na hey hey goodbye" on the floor? Really disgusting. But man will that make an easy campaign add for the dems.

Actually, I think it was the Dems. No decorum on either side of the aisle anymore.

Quote

The process before and during the vote was contentious. After the vote, Democratic representatives chanted, "Na na na na, na na na na, hey hey hey, goodbye," apparently suggesting to their Republican counterparts that their votes would cost them control of the chamber.

I stand corrected. I think this bill is a catastrophic disaster, but also agree that it's totally inappropriate behavior by the dems. I wish I could say politicians used to be more dignified, but sadly I've read too much history and know this is only par for the course.

I think it gets through the Senate and eventually approved. Repubs always tow the party line no matter how much noise they make before the vote. The only upside is the end of uncertainty so contingency plans can be put into action. I have been basically frozen waiting to see what happens with this issue.

I feel the same way, as disheartening as this vote is. I can only hope the Senate makes this more palatable.

I'm sure they'll sprinkle some glitter on this turd of a bill and then start gaslighting the hell out of everyone with assurances that regardless of what independent think tanks say, this is what's best for America. Right now, polls suggest that's is a pretty damn risky gambit, but it's worked for them many times before, so we'll see.

OK, let's go with this scenario. What happens when what is predicted actually happens? Shirley, reality will set it at some point. Tens of millions of people should experience at the very least mild hardship as a result, right? The margin of victory, balance of power in Congress as well as in the White House is much much much slimmer than that.

I stand corrected. I think this bill is a catastrophic disaster, but also agree that it's totally inappropriate behavior by the dems. I wish I could say politicians used to be more dignified, but sadly I've read too much history and know this is only par for the course.

That just fricking turns my stomach -- as a Democrat. Think it? Sure. Sing it quietly in your head? Sure. But trot it out there and make a spectacle of it? GD juvenile. This is not the damn Cotton Bowl. This isn't a sporting event. I want to know who it was so I can contact their offices and tell them to get their shit together for 2018.

I stand corrected. I think this bill is a catastrophic disaster, but also agree that it's totally inappropriate behavior by the dems. I wish I could say politicians used to be more dignified, but sadly I've read too much history and know this is only par for the course.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/hey-hey-goodbye"This is both an homage and a literal repetition of what Republicans did when the Clinton tax bill passed in the House in 1993. Same singing, same song. The bill paved the way for budget balancing over the course of the decade and (more arguably) played a role in creating the prosperity of that decade. It also came little more than a year before Democratic majorities in both Houses were annihilated in the 1994 midterm."

I think it gets through the Senate and eventually approved. Repubs always tow the party line no matter how much noise they make before the vote. The only upside is the end of uncertainty so contingency plans can be put into action. I have been basically frozen waiting to see what happens with this issue.

I feel the same way, as disheartening as this vote is. I can only hope the Senate makes this more palatable.

I'm sure they'll sprinkle some glitter on this turd of a bill and then start gaslighting the hell out of everyone with assurances that regardless of what independent think tanks say, this is what's best for America. Right now, polls suggest that's is a pretty damn risky gambit, but it's worked for them many times before, so we'll see.

OK, let's go with this scenario. What happens when what is predicted actually happens? Shirley, reality will set it at some point. Tens of millions of people should experience at the very least mild hardship as a result, right? The margin of victory, balance of power in Congress as well as in the White House is much much much slimmer than that.

We all know what happens, they blame Obama and Repubs gain more seats. You can't fix stupid.

regardless of this ugly uncertainty, even with the ACA I'm not sure how we could pull the plug on our day jobs considering the monthly premium + cost of careCurrently the employer based cost is 1,200$/mo for family, employer pays about 2/3, and deductible/out of pocket are pretty minimal (large employer, great health plan)As self-employed/FIRED, for this price we would get the very basic plan + deductible would be thousands of $$

We are all very healthy, but with an active family someone always gets hurt, the kids need to see a Dr. every now and then, the adults see more Drs. as getting older (eye Dr for new prescription just for starters) . The amount the insurance paid for a simple ER visit for say a sprained wrist is unbelievable.

I roughly calculated we would need about 20K/year for some kind of insurance + deductibles, which means extra 500K$ stash, and about 5 more years of work on top of what we had planned, and that is if we stay on path and not have major setbacks, like somebody getting terribly ill.This sucks big time, and if current administration get their way , we may not be able to get any insurance at all without a day jobNeed a way to stay rich and healthy and not sick and poor

The NY Health Act has already passed Assembly. It now needs only one vote to pass the NY State Senate. That one vote will have to be a Republican because all the other Senators have signed on. "

Interesting. California has something similar in the works, though the road ahead is much longer on that front. Lots of skepticism from both sides of the aisle here, but as I understand it, the plan proposal is still under development.

The NY Health Act has already passed Assembly. It now needs only one vote to pass the NY State Senate. That one vote will have to be a Republican because all the other Senators have signed on. "

Interesting. California has something similar in the works, though the road ahead is much longer on that front. Lots of skepticism from both sides of the aisle here, but as I understand it, the plan proposal is still under development.

The NY Health Act has already passed Assembly. It now needs only one vote to pass the NY State Senate. That one vote will have to be a Republican because all the other Senators have signed on. "

I'm already here. Ya'll are welcome to come by ;) I'm honestly not familiar with S4840 because it's not getting much press here at all. I'd assume that's because it's not likely to make waves until we see what happens at the federal level. Say the feds move forward on this crazy "replace" (more like repeal and set on fire) plan. NY loses billions in Medicaid funds that will have to be replaced somehow.

I'm already here. Ya'll are welcome to come by ;) I'm honestly not familiar with S4840 because it's not getting much press here at all. I'd assume that's because it's not likely to make waves until we see what happens at the federal level. Say the feds move forward on this crazy "replace" (more like repeal and set on fire) plan. NY loses billions in Medicaid funds that will have to be replaced somehow.

At least you are in a blue state that makes more money than many countries... NY will find the money. I'm in a red state and I'm sure if this dumpster fire of a bill passes, gov Walker will jump on pre-existing conditions exemptions the very next day. Sucks.

They can put amendments on that say almost anything. For example, they could take the Upton amendment (that which provides $8B over 5 years for high-risk pools) and introduce their own amendment that will provide $20B a year over the next ten years. They could make an amendment limiting the ability for states to use their waivers to 'opt-out'.

Most of the Senate GOP members are moderates, with the exception of Rand Paul, Ted Cruz and Mike Lee, who both are closer to the Freedom caucus. So if it moves too much further to the center, all three may reject it. If it doesn't move at all to the center there's a long list of senators that will have trouble supporting it.

Hahaha, yeah, our winters can be miserable. Shoulder seasons can be stunningly beautiful, though, and the summers (if not rainy) are quite nice as well. Cost of living north of Albany is actually quite low.

This made my choice clear and now I can put the FIRE plan into action without any hesitation: moving to Europe.

I've been meaning to ask these questions to the MMM crowd for a while... not sure if it justifies a separate thread....

But what are some good options for FIRE'ing abroad in a (hopefully) first-world country?

Assuming you can prove having on-the-order of a million USD in assets,

Which countries:

0. are essentially first-world where the police come when you call, you don't have to constantly worry about being assaulted/robbed, etc?1. will let you stay (essentially) indefinitely if you want? 2. will let you have access to their health care system?3. will allow you to work with minimal hoops to jump through (possibly contractor/side-gig work)?4. have a low enough cost of living where-by you can comfortably FIRE on a million USD?

I'm already here. Ya'll are welcome to come by ;) I'm honestly not familiar with S4840 because it's not getting much press here at all. I'd assume that's because it's not likely to make waves until we see what happens at the federal level. Say the feds move forward on this crazy "replace" (more like repeal and set on fire) plan. NY loses billions in Medicaid funds that will have to be replaced somehow.

At least you are in a blue state that makes more money than many countries... NY will find the money. I'm in a red state and I'm sure if this dumpster fire of a bill passes, gov Walker will jump on pre-existing conditions exemptions the very next day. Sucks.

Amen brother. Got into a heated discussion with a co-worker that loves Walker and all things Republican. He was just bitching this morning about insurance but could not see how worse off his family would be with their multiple significant pre existing condition if this bill passes. He thought high risk pools were a great idea but wasn't really understanding how they would work. I just shake my head and wonder what it would take to convince my SO to move at retirement

Amen brother. Got into a heated discussion with a co-worker that loves Walker and all things Republican. He was just bitching this morning about insurance but could not see how worse off his family would be with their multiple significant pre existing condition if this bill passes. He thought high risk pools were a great idea but wasn't really understanding how they would work. I just shake my head and wonder what it would take to convince my SO to move at retirement

Those who don't remember history....

Your co-worker will get a serious awakening if TrumpCare passes as is.

Personally, I think all of this focus on removing the protections for pre-existing conditions, essential health benefits, and lifetime caps (while terrible) is basically small potatoes to what this bill really does, which is to give a huge tax break to the wealthiest Americans and pay for it by taking Medicaid away from millions of poor people.

Sure, disassembling ACA protections gets people riled up, because yes it definitely makes American healthcare worse. But really the headlines on every major news outlet today should be REPUBLICANS VOTE TO STEAL FROM POOR PEOPLE TO PAY FOR TAX BREAK FOR THE RICH. That's where all the real action is, that's what this bill actually does in terms of immediate dollars and cents changes. It kicks millions of Americans off of Medicaid, and uses that money to lower taxes on people earning more than $250k/year (the capital gains and medicare surtaxes). It's literally robbing the poor to pay the rich.

There are other problems, of course. It looks like the current language prohibits the proposed federal tax credits from being used to buy insurance that includes any abortion-related services, which means that states like NY and CA that mandate abortion coverage in all of the insurance plans would get no federal tax credits. Which the Republicans must just LOVE, because they love sticking it to liberals and are always trying to find laws that disproportionately hurt the blue states (see state income tax deduction on the chopping block, for example).

Plus all the usual problems, like kicking tens of millions of people off of their current insurance instead of fulfilling the President's promise of "insurance for everybody" and the inevitable spike in premiums that will result from high risk pools being woefully underfunded instead of folded into the larger ratepayer population. But really none of that bothers me as much as destroying Medicaid so they can give a tax break to the wealthiest households, that's just evil.

Absolutely, the destruction of Medicaid is my biggest issue with this bill, too. And since Medicaid covers nursing home stays, this affects a LOT of us who will become elderly or have elderly relatives.

Personally, I think all of this focus on removing the protections for pre-existing conditions, essential health benefits, and lifetime caps (while terrible) is basically small potatoes to what this bill really does, which is to give a huge tax break to the wealthiest Americans and pay for it by taking Medicaid away from millions of poor people.

Sure, disassembling ACA protections gets people riled up, because yes it definitely makes American healthcare worse. But really the headlines on every major news outlet today should be REPUBLICANS VOTE TO STEAL FROM POOR PEOPLE TO PAY FOR TAX BREAK FOR THE RICH. That's where all the real action is, that's what this bill actually does in terms of immediate dollars and cents changes. It kicks millions of Americans off of Medicaid, and uses that money to lower taxes on people earning more than $250k/year (the capital gains and medicare surtaxes). It's literally robbing the poor to pay the rich.

There are other problems, of course. It looks like the current language prohibits the proposed federal tax credits from being used to buy insurance that includes any abortion-related services, which means that states like NY and CA that mandate abortion coverage in all of the insurance plans would get no federal tax credits. Which the Republicans must just LOVE, because they love sticking it to liberals and are always trying to find laws that disproportionately hurt the blue states (see state income tax deduction on the chopping block, for example).

Plus all the usual problems, like kicking tens of millions of people off of their current insurance instead of fulfilling the President's promise of "insurance for everybody" and the inevitable spike in premiums that will result from high risk pools being woefully underfunded instead of folded into the larger ratepayer population. But really none of that bothers me as much as destroying Medicaid so they can give a tax break to the wealthiest households, that's just evil.

On the bright side, this current version of the bill apparently keeps the expanded HSA and FSA limits from the previous version. If you're a high-earning mustachian who typically maxes out these accounts, you just saved thousands of dollars on your taxes for next year!

The problem with sol's headline is that a significant fraction of the electorate thinks Medicaid recipients are already stealing from working people. It's not stealing if you're just getting back what's yours.

Of course everyone has a different opinion of what they are owed. There is a long list of people I think have been robbing me blind, but it's not getting much traction any time soon.

The problem with sol's headline is that a significant fraction of the electorate thinks Medicaid recipients are already stealing from working people. It's not stealing if you're just getting back what's yours.

Of course everyone has a different opinion of what they are owed. There is a long list of people I think have been robbing me blind, but it's not getting much traction any time soon.

When the significant fraction of the electorate thinking as much lives in states that take the most federal aid (leaving states like mine to subsidize them), I have a hard time seeing the logic in their viewpoint.

My understanding is that those earning >$200k will save such an enormous amount of money because the AHCA does away with the 3.8% Net Investment Income Tax (aka the "Obamacare tax" levied on the wealthiest). I'm sure the rich will argue that this isn't a tax cut but rather returning to the Bush-era years when the tax didn't exist at all. Of course they'd be just as guilty choose their prefered timescales, as under 'W' their taxes were much lower than during the Clinton years... or at the end of WWII when they could be >90% for those in the top bracket.

To be fair I don't disagree with Sol's assessment at all here - the GOP plan is far more about cutting/reducing/eliminating* taxes on the wealthy while reducing the government's long-term exposure on medicaid by cutting back on both the number of people and total amount it covers. In short, it cuts both revenue and outlays, and it certainly does this at the cost of millions of people's health care.

Reducing health care is the means. Cutting tax revenue on the rich and expenditures was the real goal.

The problem with sol's headline is that a significant fraction of the electorate thinks Medicaid recipients are already stealing from working people. It's not stealing if you're just getting back what's yours.

Of course everyone has a different opinion of what they are owed. There is a long list of people I think have been robbing me blind, but it's not getting much traction any time soon.

When the significant fraction of the electorate thinking as much lives in states that take the most federal aid (leaving states like mine to subsidize them), I have a hard time seeing the logic in their viewpoint.

It's the same logic that led the 98%+ of southerners who didn't own slaves to support secession. Many/most aspired to and/or believed that they could one day become a part of the elite and thus supported anything that maintained their vision of the "American dream" they were convinced they themselves would one day get to live--if only the evil North (or modern Democrats) would stop holding them back. I'm oversimplifying, of course, but that's basically how the "logic" tends to go.

They can put amendments on that say almost anything. For example, they could take the Upton amendment (that which provides $8B over 5 years for high-risk pools) and introduce their own amendment that will provide $20B a year over the next ten years. They could make an amendment limiting the ability for states to use their waivers to 'opt-out'.

I think the Senate is going to pretty much start over and write its own bill. It's called "amendment in the nature of a substitute".

even with the ACA I'm not sure how we could pull the plug on our day jobs considering the monthly premium + cost of careCurrently the employer based cost is 1,200$/mo for family, employer pays about 2/3, and deductible/out of pocket are pretty minimal (large employer, great health plan)As self-employed/FIRED, for this price we would get the very basic plan + deductible would be thousands of $$

It's a shame people never did the numbers to understand how the premium subsidy worked to keep health insurance costs low. If you're a family in a state of FIRE you could have had a relatively high income to qualify for subsidies to help pay the insurance costs.Assuming you would be living a relatively mustachian lifestyle in your FIRE you would have paid a fairly low price for comprehensive health insurance.

Anyone that contemplates retiring before 65 I hope you have a plan for health insurance now that ACA is likely to be destroyed by the Republicans.

Health insurance is your stash insurance. You built up that stash, but it will be for naught if you don't have health insurance.