Yes, and I certainly wasn't advocating anything other than a respectful attitude. My point was that a LEO with a chip on his shoulder might be less inclined to threaten people in a group rather than a lone individual in a campsite.

Yes, and I certainly wasn't advocating anything other than a respectful attitude. My point was that a LEO with a chip on his shoulder might be less inclined to threaten people in a group rather than a lone individual in a campsite.

Ego monsters could care less if it's 1 or 20. 20 give them a bigger audience when they beat the chest with both fists!

I wonder if the LEO came across someone from one of the NGO's, say, The Nature Conservancy or The Sierra Club, if their attitude would be different that it would be with a 4 wheeler, quad, bicyclist, or motorcycle. I think the rules of the game are different, depending on the players.

Yes, and I certainly wasn't advocating anything other than a respectful attitude. My point was that a LEO with a chip on his shoulder might be less inclined to threaten people in a group rather than a lone individual in a campsite.

You need to be respectful and courteous, but also don't forget you have rights. Be forceful, honest and don't get bullied. There are plenty of police and LEO who are on power trips and will try to bend the rules to their advantage.

You NEVER have to submit to a search of your vehicle or property without a warrant. But if they see something in plain view or you say something, then that can give them probable cause. Keep your personal junk stowed and out of view and just answer their questions briefly. Don't ramble, tell them the story or try to explain. Answer only specific, pointed questions. You must tell them your name, address and your birth date. You have to give them registration, permits (like BLM or USFS) or legal documents as such to show your right to be where you are. Nothing else needs to be offered or asked. As of today you still don't have to prove your innocence and citizenship. They don't have the right to make you prove anything for them.

You can NEVER be detained without a reason (however probable cause is a very vague exception) and during a civil or ordinance violation (such as traffic violations, loud music, open containers in camp, whatever) they have no probable cause to search you or your vehicle unless you give them one. For example, if you are sitting in camp in Utah and there is a law against out-of-state beer, they can only write you a citation and that's it. The act of violating an ordinance does not give the cop any additional inherent right to search you or your truck without a warrant and probable cause.

In that vein, ask directly if you are charged with a crime or being arrested, if not then ask to end the exchange (ask to be allowed to leave or be left alone). Ask "Am I free to go?" The response is yes or no. Unless it's no with a specific reason, then you may legally go. But even if that's the case, don't leave if doing so would provoke or escalate the encounter. Always be polite.

You never have to answer anything without a lawyer if you don't want. Anything you say after being advised of your rights is open for use against you, so don't say anything beyond yes, no, thank you.

NEVER physically resist detention or search. Rather say in no uncertain terms that you do NOT submit to this wrongful arrest, detention, search, particularly without an attorney. Presenting a threatening situation, verbally abusing, presenting a physical safety problem, etc. to a LEO is the fast lane to conflict.

If the cop will not remain within his legal bounds, ask for his sergeant, supervisor, etc. to be called in. You always have the right to ask for that, although doing so will raise the encounter tension. But asserting your right could be the difference between being unlawfully hauled into the precinct or charged with some stupid petty crime. Never let them push you into something to make it easier or quicker. That's exactly why they push the limit, so they can skate on a technicality rather than going through the pains to get a warrant. If you say OK to a search, then they don't need a warrant. That Federali in Moab probably assumed that being in the middle of nowhere would prevent that, but even he has a supervisor. If that means getting him or her out of bed and driving 100 miles at 2AM or getting a warrant from a judge 40 miles away in town, you still have the right to ask for it.

The 4th, 5th and 6th Amendments are not field negotiable. Exercise them.

Perhaps this thread should be moved to the member's only section. Rising Sun probably doesn't need to publicly voice their opinion that we are for, or against, the authority working in the fine state of Utah.

__________________aka Mike D.----->Bio PageKDøGWY“He who goes unarmed in paradise had better be sure that that is where he is.”—James Thurber"Its better to be thought a fool rather than to speak up and remove all doubt." - Lincolnpride is ego, the word I had lost was dignity. The quality or state of being worthy of esteem or respect.Ptarmigan build thread - 95FZJ80www.root45.comwww.risingsun4x4club.orgTLCA #14133

Perhaps this thread should be moved to the member's only section. Rising Sun probably doesn't need to publicly voice their opinion that we are for, or against, the authority working in the fine state of Utah.

Maybe, but I don't think anyone is questioning the authority to enforce the laws. Just that their authority is still clearly limited by your Constitutional rights. I've been 'profiled' as a neo-hippie in my old white Toyota truck with mountain bikes on top and CU alumni plates. I'm generally a law abiding fellow and don't go out of my way to make their job hard (gosh knows a 22R-E can't seriously break speed limits). But the system from the top down is being streamlined to make violations easier to enforce, judges rarely deny warrants, the word of the police is unquestioned, the laws are written to make enforcement and punishment easier. You have to actively exercise your rights to keep them.

I wonder if the LEO came across someone from one of the NGO's, say, The Nature Conservancy or The Sierra Club, if their attitude would be different that it would be with a 4 wheeler, quad, bicyclist, or motorcycle. I think the rules of the game are different, depending on the players.

Bruce, why do you think that would be the case? I would guess that more LEOs are of the pro land use mindset rather than being of the treehugging school, wouldn't you?