sigh... I tire of this discussion. I didnt intend to discuss my past when I started this thread. It's a very painful thing that I want to leave behind. I havent even told you about one tenth of the abuse my family has received from the locals, all done to us when we never wrong them, except being richer. You try growing up in that kind of environment, and see if you can still say the things you say now. I understand about giving back to the community, but the community I'll give back to is most certainly not Indonesia.

But thanks for the comments anyway. They certainly got me thinking. Maybe they'll change my mind, or maybe they wont. I'll think about them after my exams. Having this very personal discussion is really bad when you have exam the next day.

Raikoken, it sucks when you and your family are working very hard to make an honest living and have not personally wrong the Malays and yet get the general mistreatment. It is the mob mentality. This kind of shit happens all around the world, not just to Chinese Indons.

Just heard an interview with the author for the book "A Time to Betray" who used to work for the Iranian Revolutionary Guard and later turned CIA spy. Women were held in prison cell without trial and prison guards would rape them before their executions as according to their religion, only virgins go to heaven. And Janjaweed soldiers in Darfu who raped and insert knives into their private and saying to their victims "you get this because you are black". Inhumanity and injustice are alive and well within the human civilisation.

You sound like a fine young man open to new ideas. I hope you stay that way and not let your current hardship taint your attitude.

As for USA, it is a very large and diverse country. Rascism is more rampant in some parts than others. I live in the Bay Area with diverse ethnic makup and people tend to be more receptive and open minded. And I am able to enjoy a fulfilling lifestyle.

sundaymorningstaple wrote: it would be reminiscent of America in 1966 with thousands of kids running away to Canada.

What's the reasons for their escape to Canada? There are people out there who do not believe in the use of violence as a mean for conflict resolution. And then there are those who think there are other ways to give back to their community or country besides fighting in a patriotic war. What should they do? To go with their personal conviction/principal or obey the orders of the politicians.

sundaymorningstaple wrote: it would be reminiscent of America in 1966 with thousands of kids running away to Canada.

What's the reasons for their escape to Canada? There are people out there who do not believe in the use of violence as a mean for conflict resolution. And then there are those who think there are other ways to give back to their community or country besides fighting in a patriotic war. What should they do? To go with their personal conviction/principal or obey the orders of the politicians.

That one's easy EF. They are cowards. The country gave the a home and a open chance to be what ever they want to be. As a citizen, if my country calls me for service, I will. It's my duty. It's a duty I was born with and if 58,000 of my brothers & sisters are good enough to give their lives for what that flag stands for, by dog, I will and and I expect, 99% of all AMERICAN'S feel the same way. The majority of those who ran away were drug crazed hippies who, deluded by drugs, made a lot of wrong decisions that haunted them later. It's just like radical muslims. What do they constitute in the whole of the islamic religion? probably less than 1% as well. I wouldn't expect you to understand where I am coming from as you are Asian and don't really have a concept of duty to country, only to family, so therefore I excuse your lack of understanding in this area. It has absolutely nothing to do with "conflict resolution" as that is a concept that is nothing but BS. I'll bet you I know enough ways to make the most ardent "conscious objector" or whatever you want to call them, pick up a weapon and strike back. It's BS, EF. They need to obey they head of government or get the hell out as they don't deserve the protection otherwise provided by that government. It's called quid pro quo I believe. Nothing in this world is truly free and I'm very sure you know that.

sundaymorningstaple wrote:As a citizen, if my country calls me for service, I will. It's my duty. It's a duty I was born with and if 58,000 of my brothers & sisters are good enough to give their lives for what that flag stands for, by dog, I will and and I expect, 99% of all AMERICAN'S feel the same way.

Yes, however there are exceptions. I don't recall whether it was a michael moore doco or another.. but it illustrated that the major recruitment drive for the military in the US was from the lower socio-economic areas and ghetto's.

They then confronted (ambushed) quite a few politicians in the street to see whether any of them would send their children off to Iraq. It was an interesting reaction they got.

i have nothing against patriotism, but I think those waving the patriotism flag in leadership / congress / parliament during times of war should be equally committed.

Splatted, there is a slight difference between what we (I) was talking about and what you are talking about. In the '60's the Selective Service System Draft was still active (until 1975 - when it was mothballed - not done away with). Everybody was eligible for call-up and were, unless they enlisted, deferred do to being in school, were gay, or were legitimate conscious objectors. If you were drafted, you did a 2 year active duty wherever the military felt like using you - usually the infantry. If you enlisted, you did three years and could go for the best school you could get into. and if you did well enough you might be offered OCS or the Warrant Officer Flight Training programme (my route) and your enlistment was increased from 3 to 4 years upon receiving your Bars.

The US has had a purely volunteer Military since 1975. So to keep from re-activating the Draft, they depend on volunteers. If the socio-economic conditions in the US are such that the majority of "unemployed" are in certain ethnic communities, or in the heartlands of the US (farmer country) then, of course, they centre their recruitment drives there. But it's still not mandatory, but voluntary. Big difference.

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Splatted, there is a slight difference between what we (I) was talking about and what you are talking about. In the '60's the Selective Service System Draft was still active (until 1975 - when it was mothballed - not done away with). Everybody was eligible for call-up and were, unless they enlisted, deferred do to being in school, were gay, or were legitimate conscious objectors. If you were drafted, you did a 2 year active duty wherever the military felt like using you - usually the infantry. If you enlisted, you did three years and could go for the best school you could get into. and if you did well enough you might be offered OCS or the Warrant Officer Flight Training programme (my route) and your enlistment was increased from 3 to 4 years upon receiving your Bars.

The US has had a purely volunteer Military since 1975. So to keep from re-activating the Draft, they depend on volunteers. If the socio-economic conditions in the US are such that the majority of "unemployed" are in certain ethnic communities, or in the heartlands of the US (farmer country) then, of course, they centre their recruitment drives there. But it's still not mandatory, but voluntary. Big difference.

Granted, there's a difference.

It's just odd that politicians who are passionate and supportive of the war(s) (post 1990) don't send their children into battle. This is my only gripe - they are quick to sacrifice other people's children, but not their own.

We also have a considerable of number of politicians who son's & daughters are on active duty. We also have active politicians who were, themselves, POW's at some point. The hall of the government are just like the public itself, a mixed bag. some good, some bad, some self serving, some serving their constituents. Of the people, by the people, for the people. Problem is, the people sometimes aren't smart enough to vote some of the idjits out of office once they have reached their use-by dates, so you end up with senators staying in office for 40 years! But we cannot blame anybody except ourselves as we are the ones who keep voting them in.

sundaymorningstaple wrote: it would be reminiscent of America in 1966 with thousands of kids running away to Canada.

What's the reasons for their escape to Canada? There are people out there who do not believe in the use of violence as a mean for conflict resolution. And then there are those who think there are other ways to give back to their community or country besides fighting in a patriotic war. What should they do? To go with their personal conviction/principal or obey the orders of the politicians.

That one's easy EF. They are cowards. The country gave the a home and a open chance to be what ever they want to be. As a citizen, if my country calls me for service, I will. It's my duty. It's a duty I was born with and if 58,000 of my brothers & sisters are good enough to give their lives for what that flag stands for, by dog, I will and and I expect, 99% of all AMERICAN'S feel the same way. The majority of those who ran away were drug crazed hippies who, deluded by drugs, made a lot of wrong decisions that haunted them later. It's just like radical muslims. What do they constitute in the whole of the islamic religion? probably less than 1% as well. I wouldn't expect you to understand where I am coming from as you are Asian and don't really have a concept of duty to country, only to family, so therefore I excuse your lack of understanding in this area. It has absolutely nothing to do with "conflict resolution" as that is a concept that is nothing but BS. I'll bet you I know enough ways to make the most ardent "conscious objector" or whatever you want to call them, pick up a weapon and strike back. It's BS, EF. They need to obey they head of government or get the hell out as they don't deserve the protection otherwise provided by that government. It's called quid pro quo I believe. Nothing in this world is truly free and I'm very sure you know that.

Hey SMS - WAIT! Don't cont me in as one of the hippie tree hugging global citizens. I'm Asian too bro.... and I will die for good old RED, WHITE,and BLUE! I'm from the midwest...not SF!

You forget one important aspect! Your are AMERICAN FIRST. That is the Proper Noun, your "Asianess" is only a descriptive adjective. It's different here in Singapore where they still don't have a "country" but a "company" so the staff here are Singaporean Chinese, Singaporean Indians, Singaporean Malays, etc, etc. They country becomes the adjective with their ethnicity being the most important thing.

When I say Asian, I mean in Asia! And if you were formerly a Singaporean, today you are probably more of a devout AMERICAN that I am as you consciously adopted my country as your own!

You forget one important aspect! Your are AMERICAN FIRST. That is the Proper Noun, your "Asianess" is only a descriptive adjective. It's different here in Singapore where they still don't have a "country" but a "company" so the staff here are Singaporean Chinese, Singaporean Indians, Singaporean Malays, etc, etc. They country becomes the adjective with their ethnicity being the most important thing.

When I say Asian, I mean in Asia! And if you were formerly a Singaporean, today you are probably more of a devout AMERICAN that I am as you consciously adopted my country as your own!

Thanks SMS.

No….. not a former SG. I get that a lot growing up here with white folks questioning my loyalty for my skin color and my fluency with heritage language. My son is experiencing the same challenges but you’re right – we’re AMERIACN first – period.

The Indo kid bitched about growing up as minority in Indo. I do the same here too and so does my boy. That don’t change how we feel about our fatherland. I still get that glaring look from white boy in Mustang occasionally and if the moon aligned properly, I may get a “get the F*&@K out of my country”