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Foreshadow already said what I wanted to say regarding Enishi taking responsibility.

I don't hate Enishi. I sympathize with him, even pity the poor guy. But he didn't accept responsibility for the debacle in any significant way. He didn't even accept the fact that it was his signature on the contract. That Takako was only an advisor - the final decision was his. He didn't accept that good intentions - which, yes, Takako had - just aren't enough.

I don't know about this, I personally feel he had a bit of an epiphany during the pool scene.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R

Which, frankly, is a practical message and applies in the real world. It's one very nicely conveyed by the excellent anime character in your cool avatar and sig.

I'm going to be a bit blunt here, and I apologize if it offends anybody, but I think that it needs to be said - In a medium that frequently glorifies NEETs and Hikikomoris, having a show that takes a much more practical and realistic approach to work and adult life in the real world is something that I appreciated. It's something that I liked a lot about Hanasaku Iroha. Hanasaku's idea of "loving your work" is one that I think the anime world would benefit from seeing conveyed. I would argue that part of "loving your work" is actually becoming good at it; maybe not great, but at least generally competent.

But the message of "It's Ok if you're completely and consistently inept at your work (as long as you admit to that)" is just more of the same sort of easy acceptance of social maladjustment and/or occupational failure that I see too often in anime.

If I thought that was the message of this episode, I could see why it would be a problem. However, that's definitely not what I took from this episode.

You're the one who brought up NEETs. Is his newfound personal responsibility not what separates Enishi from them? He at least has a chance of succeeding at something, they do not.

I also note that the grandmother says she's happy he's finally showing some backbone - to me, that says that she's finally starting to think that he can succeed. Success is not shown but the possibility of it is implied.

I believe that there are better ways this show could have done a personal responsibility oriented episode - a failure on Ohana's part could have been the perfect antidote to the overuse of "Ohana saves the day" plots in this, although perhaps less meaningful because we already know she has a spine and can take responsibility. I'm just saying, I strongly disagree with the idea that this episode lacked a point.

I believe that there are better ways this show could have done a personal responsibility oriented episode - a failure on Ohana's part could have been the perfect antidote to the overuse of "Ohana saves the day" plots in this, although perhaps less meaningful because we already know she has a spine and can take responsibility. I'm just saying, I strongly disagree with the idea that this episode lacked a point.

But I feel that the failure of the execution of this very point negates its purpose. The only point the show managed to get across was that this character's struggle is nothing important in the grand scheme of things and to be laughed at.

A good comic development episode involves us laughing with the characters as they find their way. In this case, we're laughing at him.

So they may have had a point, but it actually does damage. Usually everything has a point in where something was intended, but however, it's how the point gets across that's the most important, otherwise people wouldn't have gotten so mad over something like say, Endless Eight from Haruhi.

It sends a very bad message. It's ok to be comical and be silly, but what Hana Iro is doing is degrading itself. It's saying you shouldn't take our characters seriously, nor our plot, and ultimately, not our show.

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Perhaps, complete is too much. But what about bad traits overwhelming the good so that it's hard to really take the redeeming qualities seriously like our poor Einshi before this episode?

Well, for me, this is what it comes down to: A protagonist should be either likable or entertaining or interesting or some combination thereof. For me, a protagonist that lacks any redeeming traits *and stays that way* will fail to be any of those three things.

Now, can you take a guy from total zero to somebody with redeeming qualities, and have that work? Sure you can. Actually, that can be pretty effective, and even a bit uplifting. I've heard other anime fans say that (harem comedy notwithstanding) this is basically what Love Hina! is all about, and on that level, Love Hina! works really well.

And to tie this back into Hanasaku Iroha, this is why I would have much preferred to see Enishi succeed here. He's a character that desperately needs to be built up a bit (in that Love Hina! way). I actually liked Enishi and Takako last episode, which is why this episode was such a downer to me in some ways. Just when Hanasaku came so close to successfully rehabilitating two of their most widely disliked characters, they tear them right back down again. It's like capturing defeat from the jaws of victory.

0utf0xZer0 - I see some of your points. Should Enishi eventually bounce back, I'll go back to those points, and give them more thought. But as is, this episode leaves him in a pretty bad place, imo. And I'm not sure if he's enough of a focal point character to get a real chance to be built up from that.

Short version - It'll depend on how his character is handled going forward. Honestly, I'm skeptical here, but I hope that you're right.

Well, for me, this is what it comes down to: A protagonist should be either likable or entertaining or interesting or some combination thereof. For me, a protagonist that lacks any redeeming traits *and stays that way* will fail to be any of those three things.

And THAT is what it's all about. Your characters must grow or change. He/she may not succeed, but we need to see some kind of progress and effort.

The main thing is that I can accept a lame character but if at the end they are the same thing, why do I even give a damn?

Change, for better or for worse. Change.

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And to tie this back into Hanasaku Iroha, this is why I would have much preferred to see Enishi succeed here. He's a character that desperately needs to be built up a bit (in that Love Hina! way). I actually liked Enishi and Takako last episode, which is why this episode was such a downer to me in some ways. Just when Hanasaku came so close to successfully rehabilitating two of their most widely disliked characters, they tear them right back down again. It's like capturing defeat from the jaws of victory.

Yea, honestly, that just seems like the writer being cruel for no good reason. Standard for the series. Someone's really bitter...

I do think, it's not necessary for the character to necessarily "win", but however he must win the audience. With all your wrestling references in the avatar, I'd say said character must get "over"-- even if they lose they should at least put up a good match and entertain the audience.

Who's over? Ohana, obviously. Who's not over? Einshi here; the crowd just chanted "BORING BORING" and booed him out of the stadium; I think it's pretty evident that it's a failure.

On the other hand, you do need a victory here and there to build credibility. It definitely would have been the simpler way out and I definitely think that kind of approach would allow this episode to gain 5-6 more pts.

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Glad I'm not the only one who thought Minko's expression summed up the entire arc. I literally went from wearing that exact same face to busting-a-gut laughing when I saw that.

Hooray for the return of the massage chair! I mean, Yuina! She's starting to come into her own a lot since her arc, but she still feels awkwardly periphery. I'm still not entirely clear on exactly what role she will play in Ohana's development.

Also, goddammit Jiromaru, you giant failure singularity. Did he just never come out of his room until he finished the script, and no one bothered to tell him it was off? The men in this show seem to wear their Y chromosome like a dunce cap.

The development for Enishi was fine, I suppose, but it kind of felt like a waste of two episodes when it was all over. I did like how he started out by wanting to share the blame with Takako, and kept saying that "they" had to fix it (read: tell me what to do) but tried to take the responsibility in the end. He's just not the kind of character you can get too excited about.

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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Who's over? Ohana, obviously. Who's not over? Einshi here; the crowd just chanted "BORING BORING" and booed him out of the stadium; I think it's pretty evident that it's a failure.

Enishi needs the Ricky Steamboat lesson. Don't take more than 3 moves without fighting back.

I still feel that, while it is fine to disapprove of what one feels to be an unsuccessful mini arc or individual ep of course, for now we should give it a little more of the benefit of the doubt until we get the whole picture when the series completes.

There is an outside possibility that what happens in this mini-arc will play a big role in eps to come, even if it is admittedly kinda hard to see atm....

Edit: Ya know - I still feel that Takako and Ohana's mother are pretty tactless....

It's nice that Ohana's mom tried to call and everything, but still.

I hope something happens that will eventually let me see at least ONE of them in a semi-positive light. -_-

I suppose one good thing about the episode is Ohana's grandmother "letting go" even if it resulted in a financial disaster. Maybe the subject of the mini-arc is in the beginning buds of a "normal" relationship between Ohana's grandmother and her son finally? And THAT is a good thing, in my book.

@Triple_R: Well the thread has sort of kept moving, but I'll respond to the points I don't think other people already discussed since your post was made. Reading through the tread, I tend to agree with 0utf0xZer0's and Archon_Wing's points. They've given better responses than I would have been able to anyways . BTW, Thanks re: my avatar and sig

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Originally Posted by Triple_R

This is kind of like saying "The most predictable way to satisfyingly end this shonen series is by having the main hero take out the big villain in a classic one-on-one pitched combat".

Just because it's predictable doesn't make it bad. Nor does it make the exact opposite the right or smart move. I doubt many Bleach fans, for example, would be happy with the series ending on the note of Aizen absolutely destroying Ichigo, and going on to achieve all his goals (The End!). Sure, you'd have a few people celebrating how "bold and daring" it is, but most passionate fans of the show would loath it to pieces, I'm sure.

I was talking about character development, not plot progression. I dropped Bleach during the Soul Society rescue arc, which I think was 7 or 8 years ago, so things could have changed, but I don't recall character development being a huge focus.

Any character development is better than no character development. What I was saying was that there are some kinds of character development we see more often than others, and I thought that trying to present a less common type of character development wasn't as bad of a goal (even if it was totally bungled) as people have been making it sound.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R

But is it a good message? And is this episode's message one that flows well with the overall idea of "loving your work" that was said to be a core driving idea within this anime?

I think the intent behind the episode is somewhat contradictory with what the anime as a whole is about (from what I recall reading on this board and elsewhere), and it clearly does nothing to improve Enishi and Takako in the eyes of many of us, whereas a different intent may very well have achieved that.

Here is a case where the predictable approach would have been the best approach, imo.

I don't think that either direction for Enishi's character development inherently flows better or worse with the overall idea of loving your work. The reason that it flows badly as is is because of the delivery of the message, not the message itself. As the media demonstrates regularly, you can spin any set of events to flow well with whatever argument you're making.

Even if the show had taken the predictable path towards character development, it could've just as easily have been screwed up and not had anything to do with the overall message. To have Enishi's character develop in a convincing fashion from incompetence to competence, irresponsibility to responsibility, or some analogue, they would have needed something better than him suddenly succeeding at making this movie deal. Having him suddenly become a successful businessman and leaving it up to the audience to infer how he had changed to do that would have been pretty lame and not really have had much to do with loving your work.

Ideally, Enishi would have realized something that changed his outlook on life/kissuiso/whatever. That realization would have helped him in some decision making process (ideally shown onscreeen, and relating to the overall idea of loving your work) that led him to the correct result.

The message the episode tried to convey failed for the same reason "Enishi suddenly succeeds at everything" would have failed. It didn't showcase Enishi's character development in a compelling, onscreen way. As Archon_Wing said, if he got "over" and the audience saw why he was able to do so, the episode would've been fine even if he lost.

So both messages could have flowed or not flowed with the overall idea. It just depended on the way the message was delivered, which was lacking in this case.

Well, my point is simply that it's not always bad to take the predictable approach, be that with plot progression or character development. Now, I'll admit that it's ironic that I write that as I'm a person who tends to like plot twists, but even I would say that it's sometimes better to take the more tried, tested, and true route, even if it is predictable.

While I respect your viewpoint, I still strongly think that this episode (and 2-part arc) would have been a lot better if it had allowed Enishi (and Takako) to succeed.

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What I was saying was that there are some kinds of character development we see more often than others, and I thought that trying to present a less common type of character development wasn't as bad of a goal (even if it was totally bungled) as people have been making it sound.

I just don't see any positive purpose in having a character already established as a failure to be made to look like a failure yet again (in his own character arc no less!) Unless we viewers are simply supposed to laugh at him, and I don't get the impression that we are. Enishi isn't hugely likable, but he's just sympathetic enough that I can't bring myself to laugh at his misfortune. So the overall effect of having him fail again... well, you know that commercial about the Trix Rabbit never getting any trix, and the kids constantly saying "Silly rabbit! Trix is for kids!"?

Yeah, this episode had much the same impact on me as that chain of commercials does.

"Silly Enishi! The Inn is for your sister!"

It leaves a very sour taste in my mouth. It really does.

I don't care how well you execute kids constantly teasing a rabbit, and denying him the cereal he wants, it's still a fundamentally bad idea, in my view. At least when it comes to creating a story that people want to watch (as a marketing ploy for cereal, I couldn't say ).

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I don't think that either direction for Enishi's character development inherently flows better or worse with the overall idea of loving your work. The reason that it flows badly as is is because of the delivery of the message, not the message itself. As the media demonstrates regularly, you can spin any set of events to flow well with whatever argument you're making.

I think the message itself might be a bad message to send. Constant (and at times major) failure is not good (or even acceptable) just because you admit to your failures. Constant occupational failure does not jive with loving your work, in my opinion. If you love your work, you naturally will want to become better at it (unless you're already good at it), and you will become better at it (if you're not good at it already). So if Hanasaku Iroha is aiming to have "loving your work" as a central idea then it logically should show people doing well at their work.

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Even if the show had taken the predictable path towards character development, it could've just as easily have been screwed up and not had anything to do with the overall message.

I disagree. Again, I think it's a very smooth logical chain from "loving your work" to "succeeding at your work".

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To have Enishi's character develop in a convincing fashion from incompetence to competence, irresponsibility to responsibility, or some analogue, they would have needed something better than him suddenly succeeding at making this movie deal.

Why? Enishi succeeding at making this movie deal would show the following:

1. Very good people skills (working with actors and movie producers over a long period of time)

2. Good managerial skills (having to balance work schedules so they don't conflict with the filming of the movie).

3. Enishi gradually developing competence and responsibility in having to overcome those hurdles.

And here's the key: These are things that I can already imagine Enishi pulling off, because he can (in his better moments) come off as nice and friendly (which gives him a good starting point when it comes to people skills).

Actually, having Enishi succeed at this movie deal would be the perfect way to develop his character towards competence and responsibility in a convincing fashion. It helps that Enishi is clearly into movies and movie-making a lot, so it would believably follow that he would succeed at something tied to one of his personal passions.

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Having him suddenly become a successful businessman and leaving it up to the audience to infer how he had changed to do that would have been pretty lame and not really have had much to do with loving your work.

The audience wouldn't have to infer much of anything. Enishi saw a golden opportunity to utilize something that he's really into (i.e. movies) to help benefit the inn, and this naturally brought out the best in him. That was more or less my take on Enishi from Episode 16. It was plain as day to me. And I enjoyed Episode 16 a lot more than I did Episode 17.

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Ideally, Enishi would have realized something that changed his outlook on life/kissuiso/whatever.

Nothing better to change a person's outlook on life then to realize that there's a golden opportunity there that they can grab hold of. A golden opportunity that makes them more enthusiastic about life in general.

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The message the episode tried to convey failed for the same reason "Enishi suddenly succeeds at everything" would have failed.

That's a strawman argument.

Nobody said that Enishi should suddenly succeed at everything.

Having him succeed with this big movie project is not having him succeed at everything.

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It didn't showcase Enishi's character development in a compelling, onscreen way. As Archon_Wing said, if he got "over" and the audience saw why he was able to do so, the episode would've been fine even if he lost.

Nobody gets "over" if they constantly lose. Any pro wrestler can tell you that.

Look, in real life, do people generally prefer it when the underdog wins, or do they prefer it when the underdog gets smashed down yet again? What's more enjoyable to watch? What leaves a better taste in your mouth?

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So both messages could have flowed or not flowed with the overall idea. It just depended on the way the message was delivered, which was lacking in this case.

I disagree.

I think it would have been much, much better for this anime to take the route of having Enishi and Takako succeed. We've already seen them fail (and in Enishi's case, take abuse for it). Seeing them succeed would be refreshingly different, and help to make them more likable characters, in my opinion.

Edit: One thing I want to make clear here is that I don't think the situation is entirely unsalvageable. With the right plot twist, Enishi can still come out of it Ok. The question is if the anime will go that route, and if it will have time to go that route.

And this anime as a whole can still be very good, imo. It's had its share of episodes I didn't like, but it's had it shares of episodes I really liked too.

Honestly, it's starting to seem as though the secondary cast gets more attention than the mains. Nako barely feels like a 'main' character at all, I think more's been done with relatively superflous characters like Tomoe than with her.

Kind of a meh episode, as others have said. I do have to say that Minchi's grown on me a lot, though. I think she looked pretty badass while listening to the conversation between Enishi and Takako (Around 16:30 or so, can't open the episode right now), all dark and brooding and serious. Her character growth is one of the things I like most about this show, I think she's matured into a very likable person. It would have been nice if she infused more drama and style into her bitchery during the early episodes (ie more scathing remarks and meanspirited wit instead of a constant stream of 'Die balut') rather than just having a shitty personality, but eh.

Not a great episode, but on the bright side it does look like we're entering the best parts of Hanasaku Iroha. We get arcs focused around Nako and Minchi, characters I actually care about, and then presumably enter the endgame after that. Looking forward to the inevitable backstory episode to help explain (In more detail than what we've been given) why Minchi's the way she is.

The last few eps have felt so irrelevant even the bashers have lost interest. There hasn't been a post on the Tohru thread in three weeks. Kou and Tohru basically don't exist as characters at the moment, so there's nothing to fight about.

Let us start here from Square one. No... from zero!
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The last few eps have felt so irrelevant even the bashers have lost interest. There hasn't been a post on the Tohru thread in three weeks. Kou and Tohru basically don't exist as characters at the moment, so there's nothing to fight about.

The last few eps have felt so irrelevant even the bashers have lost interest. There hasn't been a post on the Tohru thread in three weeks. Kou and Tohru basically don't exist as characters at the moment, so there's nothing to fight about.

The thing is I thought moving away from all that excessive drama would make the show better. Now I miss the bashing and arguing because the last two episodes have been so boring. I'll put my money on the Nako episode(s) turning that around though.

And this anime as a whole can still be very good, imo. It's had its share of episodes I didn't like, but it's had it shares of episodes I really liked too.

To be honest, the reception this episode got reminds me of the reception episode 3 to 7 got. Back then, I predicted back then that things would start to pick up soon, and the first cour ended with an extremely strong arc. I'd be very surprised if the second cour doesn't follow in its footsteps.

So while I understand that people don't like the episode and don't want to offend anyone... I really got a "the sky is falling!" vibe from some of the posts here. Especially since I've been through this once already.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R

While I respect your viewpoint, I still strongly think that this episode (and 2-part arc) would have been a lot better if it had allowed Enishi (and Takako) to succeed.

There's another possibility: have him get scammed, but have it spur him to make a cleaner break with his past self than we saw here.

I actually have to admit there's a side of me that wishes they'd had him break off the professional (or not so professional) relationship with Takako, but I think that would have gone against the message they wanted to portray about taking responsibility for ones own actions - it would come across as buck passing.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R

I just don't see any positive purpose in having a character already established as a failure to be made to look like a failure yet again (in his own character arc no less!) Unless we viewers are simply supposed to laugh at him, and I don't get the impression that we are. Enishi isn't hugely likable, but he's just sympathetic enough that I can't bring myself to laugh at his misfortune.

So my brother and I aren't the only ones who think Enishi is a bit sympathetic. I think that may have been the intention, but I get the impression that some of the more extreme reactions we've seen come from people who don't share that view.

I think the intention was for the audience to laugh at Minko and Tomoe's reactions (which I did).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

So the overall effect of having him fail again... well, you know that commercial about the Trix Rabbit never getting any trix, and the kids constantly saying "Silly rabbit! Trix is for kids!"?

Yeah, this episode had much the same impact on me as that chain of commercials does.

"Silly Enishi! The Inn is for your sister!"

It leaves a very sour taste in my mouth. It really does.

I think we'd have to see Satsuki outgrow her wild streak and decide to settle down before she'd be a serious contender for the succession.

To be completely honest - and this isn't just my fanboyism for the character - I think Tomoe is probably the person best suited to running the inn, but of course she isn't family and hence isn't in the running for inheritence. Which is another reason why I speculated on an Enishi/Tomoe ending for so long - although this episode kind of quashed that theory.

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Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

Kind of a meh episode, as others have said. I do have to say that Minchi's grown on me a lot, though.

Minchi's been growing on me for quite a while. Satsuki and Sui too. Ohana and Tomoe are still my clear favourites though.

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Originally Posted by kk2extreme

What? No Kou bashing this week?

The staff decided to give him a break and channeled the weekly hate quota to the show and Enishi instead.

Honestly, it's starting to seem as though the secondary cast gets more attention than the mains. Nako barely feels like a 'main' character at all, I think more's been done with relatively superflous characters like Tomoe than with her.

The last few eps have felt so irrelevant even the bashers have lost interest. There hasn't been a post on the Tohru thread in three weeks. Kou and Tohru basically don't exist as characters at the moment, so there's nothing to fight about.

I don't know. Having a few episodes without shipping drama has actually been rather relaxing to me~

(of course I'm one of those people cheering for maximum Roneriness by the end of the series)

You know, I've been thinking about this one some more, and I really can't help but think they were aiming for something similar to what they did with Tomoe: have the character match up with a particular comic archetype ("Christmas cake" for Tomoe, "The Sunohara" for Enishi), but then given them a serious and complex backstory that you don't normally find among such characters.

Thankfully, it worked for Tomoe, because the usual "Christmas cake" gags in other shows were getting rather... stale. Tomoe is effective as both a comedic character and a bit of a sympathetic one. Enishi's story didn't work nearly as well, probably because of how late into the series they waited as much as anything in the episode itself.

(I'd also argue that Ohana, Minchi, and Satsuki are probably intended as more complex versions of typical anime archetypes, but I think Tomoe is the clearest demonstration of the philosophy.)

To be honest, the reception this episode got reminds me of the reception episode 3 to 7 got. Back then, I predicted back then that things would start to pick up soon, and the first cour ended with an extremely strong arc. I'd be very surprised if the second cour doesn't follow in its footsteps.

So while I understand that people don't like the episode and don't want to offend anyone... I really got a "the sky is falling!" vibe from some of the posts here. Especially since I've been through this once already.

I'm also surprised at "the sky is falling" comments but sadly for the wrong reason-- I've come to expect this from the series, and honestly I feel that if one drops the series for reasons like that by this episode, well it's a bit late-- the show wasn't for you to begin with!

Sadly, my predictions I consider have come true too; and that is, while yes, episodes 11-13 are definitely the strong part, that I'd realize they'd spend more time meandering around and the quality would clearly drop off.

So, personally, I will see this series to the end, just because I know what to expect. It's a genuinely solid series in many parts, but chooses to half ass the rest. This would have been better off as one cour.

But that's not the thing here. It's not like I was expecting some grand realization on Einshi's part. I just wish this show would stop humiliating its characters. It's funny sometimes, but it's getting stale.

This is turning out no better than your protypical harem anime (yes, Ohana's the center). Characters acting stupid and getting humiliated, and we keep getting teased about plot developments that will either never happen or just end up rushed. The only difference is that Ohana isn't spineless and stupid. And of course we are 2/3rds of the way in, and well... I've seen a lot of anime go down the crapper in their last arcs.

My point is, if you're going for filler, at least make it entertaining and don't degrade your characters. The complete lack of effort as of late is just incredibly meh. And what the hell happened to the BGM anyways? The few I manage to hear are generally repetitious. Thus, I don't even think they've been showing what the series is doing best-- creating an atmosphere.

It just annoys me, since I know they're better than this, and it would now be an insult to consider this show a spiritual successor to True Tears when it can do literally nothing on the level that TT did. Different genres I know, but I really had the feeling they gave a damn in how they handled lighthearted moments and atmosphere. This... and well I'll end up being frustrated that True Tears sold the worst out of their productions. It just taught them, along with Angel Beats being a hit that storytelling isn't important, but all you need is some fanservice and moe, and perhaps big names. In the year of stuff like Steins;Gate, Ano Hana, Tiger and Bunny, Madoka, and Usagi Drop it just doesn't cut it. And at least 3 of the above can handle silly fillerish and fanservice moments without having the same effect Hana Saku Iroha does.

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So my brother and I aren't the only ones who think Enishi is a bit sympathetic. I think that may have been the intention, but I get the impression that some of the more extreme reactions we've seen come from people who don't share that view.

I think the intention was for the audience to laugh at Minko and Tomoe's reactions (which I did).

He was indeed sympathetic in the last episode, for a bit, but the payoff was pretty null.

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Minchi's been growing on me for quite a while. Satsuki and Sui too. Ohana and Tomoe are still my clear favourites though.

I can definitely agree on that, and it is the 2nd thing Hana Saku Iroha has done best, and that is the gradual mellowing of Minko. The trio of Ohana, Nako, and Minko are good as a comedy act, and hopefully we can develop those other 2 quickly and get on with the show.

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I think the message itself might be a bad message to send. Constant (and at times major) failure is not good (or even acceptable) just because you admit to your failures. Constant occupational failure does not jive with loving your work, in my opinion. If you love your work, you naturally will want to become better at it (unless you're already good at it), and you will become better at it (if you're not good at it already). So if Hanasaku Iroha is aiming to have "loving your work" as a central idea then it logically should show people doing well at their work.

Enishi succeeding would flow better with the idea of “loving your work”, but only in the sense that it's the most similar to what's already been said. If they’re going to rehash the same message across multiple character arcs, they’ve at least got to give new angles on it and present it in a different light or do it in an entertaining manner. So in the context of the rest of the show, even if Enishi succeeded, it would’ve just said the same thing as Tomoe’s episode, just it would have been 2x longer and 100x less entertaining. At least going with the failure character development route let them say something a little different even if not everyone agrees it’s a good message.

In fact, I like more controversial messages better. I don’t mind watching shows with messages I disagree with as long as they present those messages in a novel, entertaining fashion.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R

Well, my point is simply that it's not always bad to take the predictable approach, be that with plot progression or character development. Now, I'll admit that it's ironic that I write that as I'm a person who tends to like plot twists, but even I would say that it's sometimes better to take the more tried, tested, and true route, even if it is predictable.

While I respect your viewpoint, I still strongly think that this episode (and 2-part arc) would have been a lot better if it had allowed Enishi (and Takako) to succeed.

I think it would have been much, much better for this anime to take the route of having Enishi and Takako succeed. We've already seen them fail (and in Enishi's case, take abuse for it). Seeing them succeed would be refreshingly different, and help to make them more likable characters, in my opinion.

Yeah, I can see where you're coming from. This is probably a matter of personal taste. Perhaps my issue was that I don't care about Enishi's character enough to care whether he's actually competent at anything or not. So just making him like his job and be good at it isn't enough to make me really want to watch episodes centered around him. At least him losing gave them the chance to give a marginally more interesting angle on the ideas of maturity and loving your work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Nobody gets "over" if they constantly lose. Any pro wrestler can tell you that.

Look, in real life, do people generally prefer it when the underdog wins, or do they prefer it when the underdog gets smashed down yet again? What's more enjoyable to watch? What leaves a better taste in your mouth?

Although I don’t particularly follow pro wrestling, I’d imagine the biggest failure for any wrestler would be if the audience didn’t even care whether they won or lost, and I think that’s just about where Enishi is in my book. I guess I'm too jaded to root for any pathetic character in anime just because their defining character traits are gutlessness and incompetence, but otherwise being a nice guy.

Some viewers (myself included) root for the favorites in sports when we respect the favorites as players much more than we respect the underdogs as players. To really win the hearts of the fans as an underdog, you need to somehow convince them you deserve to win as much as the favorites do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I just don't see any positive purpose in having a character already established as a failure to be made to look like a failure yet again (in his own character arc no less!) Unless we viewers are simply supposed to laugh at him, and I don't get the impression that we are. Enishi isn't hugely likable, but he's just sympathetic enough that I can't bring myself to laugh at his misfortune. So the overall effect of having him fail again... well, you know that commercial about the Trix Rabbit never getting any trix, and the kids constantly saying "Silly rabbit! Trix is for kids!"?

Yeah, this episode had much the same impact on me as that chain of commercials does.

"Silly Enishi! The Inn is for your sister!"

It leaves a very sour taste in my mouth. It really does.

I don't care how well you execute kids constantly teasing a rabbit, and denying him the cereal he wants, it's still a fundamentally bad idea, in my view. At least when it comes to creating a story that people want to watch (as a marketing ploy for cereal, I couldn't say ).

When I was younger, I loved the Peanuts TV specials. And people still read the book reprints, and watch the movies, and watch the theatrical adaptations. This is a work that’s been described as “the great American un-success story,” since the world conspires to make Charlie Brown fail at everything, yet it’s a cultural icon.

People loved Charlie Brown, and were rooting for him to win all the time. It sure felt like he deserved to win. But I would bet you that if Charlie Brown won even half of time when he deserved to, they wouldn’t still be making TV specials 50 years after the first one came out. How’s that for a story people want to watch?

Spoiler for length, side points:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Why? Enishi succeeding at making this movie deal would show the following:

1. Very good people skills (working with actors and movie producers over a long period of time)

2. Good managerial skills (having to balance work schedules so they don't conflict with the filming of the movie).

3. Enishi gradually developing competence and responsibility in having to overcome those hurdles.

And here's the key: These are things that I can already imagine Enishi pulling off, because he can (in his better moments) come off as nice and friendly (which gives him a good starting point when it comes to people skills).

Actually, having Enishi succeed at this movie deal would be the perfect way to develop his character towards competence and responsibility in a convincing fashion. It helps that Enishi is clearly into movies and movie-making a lot, so it would believably follow that he would succeed at something tied to one of his personal passions.

The audience wouldn't have to infer much of anything. Enishi saw a golden opportunity to utilize something that he's really into (i.e. movies) to help benefit the inn, and this naturally brought out the best in him. That was more or less my take on Enishi from Episode 16. It was plain as day to me. And I enjoyed Episode 16 a lot more than I did Episode 17.

Nothing better to change a person's outlook on life then to realize that there's a golden opportunity there that they can grab hold of. A golden opportunity that makes them more enthusiastic about life in general.

I could see that working out. What I was saying is that they'd have to actually show him doing all 3 of those things onscreen for me to be happy with that part of the execution. Sometimes I enjoy it when shows spell that sort of stuff out for me like I'm an idiot.

Even then, though, I still wouldn’t really care for Enishi even if he now has all three of those qualities. As he was presented earlier on in the series, they never set him up to become an interesting enough character to carry the spotlight. Yosuke and Yuina, for instance, were more fun to watch than Enishi and Takako.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

That's a strawman argument.

Nobody said that Enishi should suddenly succeed at everything.

Having him succeed with this big movie project is not having him succeed at everything.

Well, I guess it was meant more as hyperbolic language than a strawman, but the effect is the same sometimes. Sorry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Edit: One thing I want to make clear here is that I don't think the situation is entirely unsalvageable. With the right plot twist, Enishi can still come out of it Ok. The question is if the anime will go that route, and if it will have time to go that route.

And this anime as a whole can still be very good, imo. It's had its share of episodes I didn't like, but it's had it shares of episodes I really liked too.

Agreed, a little faith in the author is good for us viewers sometimes. I hope we have a better perspective on this episode in a few weeks. The reason I like this series is that all of the characters other than Enishi and Tomoe are pretty fun to watch, so I think things will only go up from here.