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Can't help but note that one case has video evidence, and the other has...rumor.

That's not true. I've seen the video. I can't post a youtube link from work, but Deandre Harris hit that Nazi in the head with a club, and he did it before anyone else took a swing. I'll post the link from home later.

There is one thing that is unclear from the video. As the video begins, Corey Long and the Nazi are tussling over the Nazi's flag. It is unclear how that tussle started, and it is unclear whether either Mr. Long or the Nazi was in any danger at that moment. Mr. Harris claims that he was defending Mr. Long.

Mr. Harris will undoubtedly put that defense forward at (or before) his trial. If he can convince a judge and/or jury that striking the Nazi was justified, he'll win.

They also went judge shopping and then magistrate shopping because no judge would file charges. That's a huge red flag.

Didn't know that - but yes, that's another warning sign that this is simply an attempt to blame a victim.

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

That's not true. I've seen the video. I can't post a youtube link from work, but Deandre Harris hit that Nazi in the head with a club, and he did it before anyone else took a swing. I'll post the link from home later.

There is one thing that is unclear from the video. As the video begins, Corey Long and the Nazi are tussling over the Nazi's flag. It is unclear how that tussle started, and it is unclear whether either Mr. Long or the Nazi was in any danger at that moment. Mr. Harris claims that he was defending Mr. Long.

Mr. Harris will undoubtedly put that defense forward at (or before) his trial. If he can convince a judge and/or jury that striking the Nazi was justified, he'll win.

So...people are fighting, and Harris took a swing at a neo-nazi?

And we're supposed to believe that he deserved to be beaten with metal poles, based on this!?

Getting back to the point, it's remarkably the lengths that some people (and you, Meadmaker, have now entered into this realm - you should get out, now!) will go to in order to justify white supremacist violence. We've seen it before with police violence, but this random crap should stop.

Is there a legal definition of "fight"? The Nazi and Corey Long each have one end of the Nazi's flag, and they are engaging in a sort of tug of war.

Quote:

And we're supposed to believe that he deserved to be beaten with metal poles, based on this!?

No, no, one thousand times no. I never said it. I never implied it. There is no way that can be inferred from what I, or the magistrate, have said.

The people who beat Deandre Harris were charged right away, because it was not justified to beat Deandre Harris.

The only question involved in this charge filed by the magistrate is whether it was justified for Deandre Harris to club the Nazi. Based on my observation of the film in which Mr. Harris is seen clubbing the Nazi, it does not appear justified, but there is some evidence missing. We have not heard any testimony other than a single comment made by Mr. Harris in a newspaper interview. (He said his friend, Corey Long, had been hit by the Nazi's flag. I think he said Mr. Long was "speared".) If any video exists that shows the start of the flag scuffle, I haven't seen it. It will be for a judge and/or jury to decide if Mr. Harris' claim to be defending Mr. Long is sufficient to justify the use of force against the Nazi. It seems to me, based on the incomplete evidence available, that Mr. Long could have simply let go of the Nazi's flag. However, if the Nazi had attacked Mr. Long with the flag, then a reasonable person might assume that Mr. Long was in danger, in which case Mr. Harris' attack on the Nazi would be justified.

I am sure that Mr. Harris will base his defense on defending his friend, and unless there is credible testimony to the contrary, there will be reasonable doubt, and he ought to go free.

The point of all this, really, is that the narrative propogated about this incident has been spun into unrecognizability. The narrative we are led to believe is that Deandre Harris was walking down the street when the Nazi marchers decided to attack, and they beat him while he lay on the ground.

What really happened is that Deandre Harris took a swing at a Nazi. A fight ensued. One of the Nazis was knocked to the ground, apparently unconscious, at which point two men came over and started beating the apparently unconscious Nazi. Meanwhile, a man took a swing at a Nazi, and then got pushed. He stumbled into Harris, who was knocked to the ground near the unconscious Nazi.

Some more Nazis now rushed to the aid of their unconscious ally. One of them ran right next to Mr. Harris, who started to get up. The Nazi kicks him as he runs past, knocking him back to the ground. A couple of other Nazis position themselves near their fallen ally, and another pair of Nazis come over and beat Deandre Harris on the ground.

All those who beat Mr. Harris have been charged. Now, Mr. Harris has been charged for swinging the club at the Nazi. To the best of my knowledge, none of the people who hit the unconscious Nazi have been charged.

Quote:

Getting back to the point, it's remarkably the lengths that some people (and you, Meadmaker, have now entered into this realm - you should get out, now!) will go to in order to justify white supremacist violence. We've seen it before with police violence, but this random crap should stop.

There is no justification for the white supremacist violence, and it is appropriate for charges to be filed. On the other hand, it is my opinion that there is no justification for the violence against the white supremacists either. At the very least, the two men who beat the Nazi on the ground should be charged. As for Mr. Harris, it also seemed to me that his attack on the Nazi is unjustified, although I would be open to contrary evidence.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

The man doing the tug of war with the Nazi is Corey Long. People who followed the thread may remember him as the guy with the flamesprayer. In the video, Deandre Harris can be seen leaping forward to club the Nazi.

The Nazi with the flag is the same guy I referred to as the "unconscious Nazi" in the previous post. He is visible in other videos. He was not knocked unconscious by Deandre Harris, but by a different knock on the head from another club-wielding man.

ETA: And looking at the video, I'm not sure Harris actually hit Mr. Nazi on the head. He may have missed. Clicking on the youtube link above doesn't work for me, although following the url to youtube does.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

This video shows what looks like it might be the first swing in the fight, but it's too small and far away for me to tell much about it. At approximately 1:00, someone with a long pole takes a swing. I can't tell what it is or who is swinging it, though. It might be a Nazi flag. It might be the staff held by the man in the pink shirt.

The man doing the tug of war with the Nazi is Corey Long. People who followed the thread may remember him as the guy with the flamesprayer. In the video, Deandre Harris can be seen leaping forward to club the Nazi.

The Nazi with the flag is the same guy I referred to as the "unconscious Nazi" in the previous post. He is visible in other videos. He was not knocked unconscious by Deandre Harris, but by a different knock on the head from another club-wielding man.

ETA: And looking at the video, I'm not sure Harris actually hit Mr. Nazi on the head. He may have missed. Clicking on the youtube link above doesn't work for me, although following the url to youtube does.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1

Hmmm......That's a good point. It won't do you any harm to see it, but youtube is tracking things. I know after I did the searching while I was looking for the videos, I got some rather interesting "recommended for you" videos for a while.

I'll ask the mods to retroactively edit the posts to include a warning that the videos linked to are extreme right wing youtube channels.

Unfortunately, the video in them is perfectly valid and contains information relevant to understanding the events in Charlottesville. It's fair for the alt-righters to claim that the news you are hearing is not the whole story. If I could find mainstream media stories that included those clips, I would link to them, but I can't. I can find plenty of links to stories about Deandre Harris being assaulted by Nazi thugs. However, that's only part of the story.

ETA: And I don't want to alarm anyone about what they might find at the end of those links. YouTube has anti-hate speech policies, and neither the videos I linked to nor the people who posted them violate those policies. They aren't really "Nazi sites", but the are definitely fringe sorts, and might fairly be called racist or perhaps "Nazi sympathizers". They aren't the sort of people you probably want to invite to your parties, and clicking on them could skew the "recommended for you" recommendations.

It's a pity that Big Brother is watching us, but can't distinguish between people who are looking to see what "the other side" is saying, versus people who actually are on "the other side."

Hmmm......That's a good point. It won't do you any harm to see it, but youtube is tracking things. I know after I did the searching while I was looking for the videos, I got some rather interesting "recommended for you" videos for a while.

I'll ask the mods to retroactively edit the posts to include a warning that the videos linked to are extreme right wing youtube channels.

Unfortunately, the video in them is perfectly valid and contains information relevant to understanding the events in Charlottesville. It's fair for the alt-righters to claim that the news you are hearing is not the whole story. If I could find mainstream media stories that included those clips, I would link to them, but I can't. I can find plenty of links to stories about Deandre Harris being assaulted by Nazi thugs. However, that's only part of the story.

The reason could be that you are not looking at the big picture either. What you see in the film snippet is a small interaction in a continuous event which ends in Deandre Harris being beaten with clubs while on the ground. Before that there was an altercation in which violence was initiated. It's likely that the violence has been deemed by prosecutors (and the media) to have been initiated by the Nazis, which would make Deandre Harris' actions in self defense.

You are chosing to listen to known fabricators and liars when they tell you the media is witholding information. You then go digging yourself, and you find "evidence" presented by known fabricators and liars indicating to you that the media is witholding information. I put it to you that the rational action is to not listen to the known fabricators and liars in the first place, because they are going to lie to you and fabricate evidence.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1

The reason could be that you are not looking at the big picture either. What you see in the film snippet is a small interaction in a continuous event which ends in Deandre Harris being beaten with clubs while on the ground. Before that there was an altercation in which violence was initiated. It's likely that the violence has been deemed by prosecutors (and the media) to have been initiated by the Nazis, which would make Deandre Harris' actions in self defense.

You are chosing to listen to known fabricators and liars when they tell you the media is witholding information. You then go digging yourself, and you find "evidence" presented by known fabricators and liars indicating to you that the media is witholding information. I put it to you that the rational action is to not listen to the known fabricators and liars in the first place, because they are going to lie to you and fabricate evidence.

What has been fabricated in this instance?

Raise your discourse above claiming "fake news" please.

Did you miss the part where he concludes that enough reasonable doubt exists that Mr. Harris should be acquited?

I think there's a good deal of blindness in this discussion alright.

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend" doesn't mean lay down your life, ride till we die, see/hear/speak no evil, put my reputation on the line and suspend rationality kind of friends.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1

I have compared a variety of different videos from a variety of different sources. They are all consistent, although creative editing from all sides makes it difficult to determine exactly what is going on. I'm confident that the general description I have given of the parking garage brawl is accurate.

The videos are cell phone or other unprofessional videos posted to youtube, so it is sometimes difficult to pick out details. Was the Nazi on the ground actually unconscious, or is he simply lying still on the ground to cover up? Did Deandre Harris actually hit the Nazi with the club, or did he swing and miss? Is the Nazi trying to wrest control of the flag from Corey Long, or is he using it aggressively? These are details I cannot determine from the video posted. And of course, I haven't seen any video of the beginning of the flag altercation at all.

Nevertheless, on the "big picture" points, I'm pretty confident I have it right. Somehow, a struggle began between Corey Long and one of the Nazis. Deandre Harris was not part of that altercation, but became involved when he swung a club at the Nazi. Several people joined in the fray, and a Nazi and Deandre Harris ended up on the ground, being beaten.

Even that much was hard to piece through from the various videos, because each side loved to post only those portions of the videos that supported their favorite narrative, or the quality wasn't very good. The ones that actually had narration and pointed out relevant details were all agenda driven and biased, from both left and right.

I have compared a variety of different videos from a variety of different sources. They are all consistent, although creative editing from all sides makes it difficult to determine exactly what is going on. I'm confident that the general description I have given of the parking garage brawl is accurate.

The videos are cell phone or other unprofessional videos posted to youtube, so it is sometimes difficult to pick out details. Was the Nazi on the ground actually unconscious, or is he simply lying still on the ground to cover up? Did Deandre Harris actually hit the Nazi with the club, or did he swing and miss? Is the Nazi trying to wrest control of the flag from Corey Long, or is he using it aggressively? These are details I cannot determine from the video posted. And of course, I haven't seen any video of the beginning of the flag altercation at all.

Nevertheless, on the "big picture" points, I'm pretty confident I have it right. Somehow, a struggle began between Corey Long and one of the Nazis. Deandre Harris was not part of that altercation, but became involved when he swung a club at the Nazi. Several people joined in the fray, and a Nazi and Deandre Harris ended up on the ground, being beaten.

Even that much was hard to piece through from the various videos, because each side loved to post only those portions of the videos that supported their favorite narrative, or the quality wasn't very good. The ones that actually had narration and pointed out relevant details were all agenda driven and biased, from both left and right.

And yet you are convinced the Nazis are right to say that the media doesn't give the whole picture?

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1

__________________OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcarehttp://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

And yet you are convinced the Nazis are right to say that the media doesn't give the whole picture?

In this case, yes, because they aren't.

I've seen an awful lot of news stories talking about Deandre Harris, being beaten by white supremacists. I have seen video clips and single frame shots accompanying those stories. Not once have I seen any reference to that other fellow lying on the ground six feet away from Deandre Harris. They've never mentioned him. They've never told us that he was beaten while lying on the ground. He's just non-existent in the news stories. He is lying there on the ground in the photos that go along with the news stories, but he isn't mentioned. My knowledge of that man comes from the youtube videos, most from alt-right sources.

In my opinion, the story of that man being beaten is just as relevant as Deandre Harris being beaten, and in fact the knowledge of him being beaten is critical to understanding how Deandre Harris ended up being beaten. In this case, the mainstream media is telling only part of the story and, as a result, a lot of people have rather skewed views of what happened that day.

Don't like being lumped in with Nazis? Sometimes, you are judged by the company you keep.

To repeat something I said a few weeks back, there were lots of different sorts of folks at that rally. There were white supremacists, and white nationalists, and neo-Nazis, and kkk supporters, and each of those groups are different from the others, but the things those groups have in common are more significant to me than their differences, and "Nazi" is a lot easier to type.

Attorney claims that Harris missed when Harris attacked the complainant, who is identified as some bloke named Crews.
Attorney claims the attack was in defense of Corey Long, who was being attacked by Crews.
Attorney claims that the injuries sustained by Crews were caused by a different attack, by a white male antifa member. There's a picture of Crews being struck with a pipe.

So, it will get sorted out. As long as there is no evidence contradicting the story that Long was being attacked, I think Harris will walk. From the story, it sounds like he has a good lawyer who is donating his services.

ETA: It's a bit hard to identify which Nazi is which in these videos. This particular group of them are all middle aged, overweight,white guys in tan khakis and black shirts.

One more youtube video, this one not from a white supremacist or any variation thereof.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

This guy has put together a collection of clips, without narration. I haven't watched the whole 30 minute video, but it has the start of the parking garage fight.

As the Nazis walk down the street, Corey Long is seen creeping behind one of them, identified as Harold Crews, who is carrying a flag. Long reaches out, and grabs the flag, in an apparent attempt to steal it. (This sort of thing, stealing flags, signs, and shields, was going on all day on both sides. Very amusing in its own way. Quite primitive.) That was the beginning of the flag tussle. It was during that tussle that Deandre Harris jumped in and hit, or attempted to hit, Harold Crews in the head.

It's up to the lawyers to convince the judge and/or jury that Mr. Harris was attempting to defend Corey Long. I think the best thing for me to do is just to let the interested parties view the videos and make their own judgements. The "flag grab" by Corey Long occurs at 16:15 of the video.

Earlier, I identified the "unconscious Nazi" as the same man attacked by Harris. That was incorrect. All those Nazis look alike, but the videos here make it clear they are not the same guy.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1

I've seen an awful lot of news stories talking about Deandre Harris, being beaten by white supremacists. I have seen video clips and single frame shots accompanying those stories. Not once have I seen any reference to that other fellow lying on the ground six feet away from Deandre Harris. They've never mentioned him. They've never told us that he was beaten while lying on the ground. He's just non-existent in the news stories. He is lying there on the ground in the photos that go along with the news stories, but he isn't mentioned. My knowledge of that man comes from the youtube videos, most from alt-right sources.

In my opinion, the story of that man being beaten is just as relevant as Deandre Harris being beaten, and in fact the knowledge of him being beaten is critical to understanding how Deandre Harris ended up being beaten. In this case, the mainstream media is telling only part of the story and, as a result, a lot of people have rather skewed views of what happened that day.

This is just wrong. There might just be a reason for why the other guy not being mentioned. It might be that Deandre Harris was attacked by multiple assailants and then clubbed while lying down. It could be that this isn't what happened to the other guy. It could just be that you are looking for something that doesn't exist. Either way, it has nothing to do with the attack on Deandre Harris.

But, if you want to go out of your way to ascertain whether or not a Nazi was actually beaten up, go ahead. Would it change your opinion on Nazis if it turned out to be true? Would it change your opinion on anti-Nazis? Do you imagine anyone else's opinions would change?

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1

This is just wrong. There might just be a reason for why the other guy not being mentioned. It might be that Deandre Harris was attacked by multiple assailants and then clubbed while lying down. It could be that this isn't what happened to the other guy. It could just be that you are looking for something that doesn't exist. Either way, it has nothing to do with the attack on Deandre Harris.

But, if you want to go out of your way to ascertain whether or not a Nazi was actually beaten up, go ahead. Would it change your opinion on Nazis if it turned out to be true? Would it change your opinion on anti-Nazis? Do you imagine anyone else's opinions would change?

This is just wrong. It could be that you are denying something that does exist.

But, if you want to go out of your way to ascertain that no criminal assault on nazis could ever have occurred, go ahead.

Seriously uke2se, it seems that your ideology blinds you judgement. Almost as if no assault could possibly be criminal when the victim is a nazi.

This is just wrong. There might just be a reason for why the other guy not being mentioned. It might be that Deandre Harris was attacked by multiple assailants and then clubbed while lying down. It could be that this isn't what happened to the other guy. It could just be that you are looking for something that doesn't exist. Either way, it has nothing to do with the attack on Deandre Harris.

But, if you want to go out of your way to ascertain whether or not a Nazi was actually beaten up, go ahead. Would it change your opinion on Nazis if it turned out to be true? Would it change your opinion on anti-Nazis? Do you imagine anyone else's opinions would change?

We don't have to deal with "might be" and "could be" when it comes to what happened in the parking garage. There's video of it. That most recent youtube link I posted had more clips from more angles to make it much more clear than what I posted previously.

As for your questions in the second paragraph, they are very interesting. It says something about the way so many people look at news.

The combination of youtube, google, and ubiquitous cell phones is really amazing.

Looking at all the different clips, it's really interesting to see how people want to focus on one aspect over another. It really is a case of the blind men and the elephant.

One thing that I had been wondering about is how the "unconscious Nazi" got that way. Well, it turns out he had taken a swipe at Deandre Harris, and was then chased down and beaten by a couple of other men. He also got up and walked away after the crowd was dispersed. He seemed dazed, but not knocked cold. I mentioned the staff carried by the man in the pink shirt. I wondered who brings a staff to a rally. I'm pretty sure it's a stolen Nazi flagpole, but with the flag removed. There appears to be a remnant on the pole.

This is just wrong. It could be that you are denying something that does exist.

But, if you want to go out of your way to ascertain that no criminal assault on nazis could ever have occurred, go ahead.

Seriously uke2se, it seems that your ideology blinds you judgement. Almost as if no assault could possibly be criminal when the victim is a nazi.

*shrug* I'd even admit to that being the case to me. I have no issues embracing my bias though. That's always been funny to me, as "skeptics" we aren't supposed to condone or forgive violence against people who want other people dead for nothing more than the color of their skin because...skeptic.

**** Nazi's. All of them. I don't have to accept them because Freedom of Speech exists, but I do believe if you do the crime then you should be held accountable for it. Either way though, never feel bad for punching a nazi in the mouth.

__________________"All acts performed in the world begin in the imagination."--Barbara Grizzuti Harrison

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

That's always been funny to me, as "skeptics" we aren't supposed to condone or forgive violence against people who want other people dead for nothing more than the color of their skin because...skeptic.

It isn't funny. Skepticism is hard because it goes against our easier, worse nature's.

It isn't funny. Skepticism is hard because it goes against our easier, worse nature's.

You really can't tell me if something is funny or not to me, just sayin'. I can determine that all on my own, thanks.

Wanting to punch Nazi's in the face isn't a "worse nature". So your point is moot. Punching Nazi's is what your reaction is supposed to be. They want other people dead because of their skin color. Nothing more. You should want those people to be gone, change, or whatever.

__________________"All acts performed in the world begin in the imagination."--Barbara Grizzuti Harrison

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss