BlurredSavant wrote:James, you have sailed right past the point. I never said that I know bin Laden orchestrated the 9/11 attack. What I said was, even if there had been a trial the man would've been killed. We all know it. It doesn't matter whether he did it or not, he said he did, and your claim that it wasn't him is nothing more than a theory.

A "theory" that would have been provable IF the evidence wasn't destroyed so that a court of law could never bring out the truth.

Again, an untenable situation for an honest perpetrator. "Destroy the body so we cannot be proven to be guilty". Why not preserve the body so that you CAN be proven innocent?

And realize that you are granting permission for someone to kill YOU because they believe that the evidence is sufficient (that was put in front of their eyes) and you would be put to death anyway, so why not.

Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic HarmonyElseFrom THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Gain is obtained by giving a lot and keeping a little.Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is"..

BlurredSavant wrote:James, you have sailed right past the point. I never said that I know bin Laden orchestrated the 9/11 attack. What I said was, even if there had been a trial the man would've been killed. We all know it. It doesn't matter whether he did it or not, he said he did, and your claim that it wasn't him is nothing more than a theory.

A "theory" that would have been provable IF the evidence wasn't destroyed so that a court of law could never bring out the truth.

Again, an untenable situation for an honest perpetrator. "Destroy the body so we cannot be proven to be guilty". Why not preserve the body so that you CAN be proven innocent?

And realize that you are granting permission for someone to kill YOU because they believe that the evidence is sufficient (that was put in front of their eyes) and you would be put to death anyway, so why not.

The government and the rest of the world understand nutcases wouldn't be convinced even if the body were put on public display. Here's an easy conspiracy theory on why that would be the case:It'd probably be the same guy who did the fake obama tape confessing to 9/1. He finally died of cancer or something (thus the 10 year delay or so). They would've then shot him up to hide the real truth, which is whatever you want to make up.

James S Saint wrote:And realize that you are granting permission for someone to kill YOU because they believe that the evidence is sufficient (that was put in front of their eyes) and you would be put to death anyway, so why not.

I think he's got you here, Blurred.

In any event, American foreign policy has little or nothing to do with the pursuit of freedom, justice, democracy or human rights. It has everything to do with the pursuit of markets, cheap labor and natural resources.

Like, for example, oil.

In other words, American foreign policy is predicated on the Bilderberg Group agenda. Go ahead, Google it.

The Bilderberg agenda aims to carve up the 3rd world [and in particular the Middle East and South Asia] in order to secure from it access to plentiful natural resources. It is an imperialistic foreign policy in this sense. And when your foreign policy revolves around imperialism and you plunder 3rd world nations for all you can get there is going to be what is called “blowback”.

And that blowback will include Osama bin Ladens, 9/11s, shoe bombers and undie-terrorists. But if your whole frame of mind is twisted by the folks [in the military industrial complex] who profit from imperialism you can easily be duped into believing we are in Iraq and Afghanistan [and now Libya] only because we are peace-loving, freedom-loving purveyors of democracy around the globe. You might then fail to figure out how these relationships really work instead.

Colin Powell:

What is the greatest threat facing us now? People will say it’s terrorism. But are there any terrorists in the world who can change the American way of life or our political system? No. Can they knock down a building? Yes. Can they kill somebody? Yes. But can they change us? No. Only we can change ourselves. So what is the great threat we are facing?

and this:

These are dangerous criminals, and we must deal with them. But come on, this is not a threat to our survival! The only thing that can really destroy us is us. We shouldn’t do it to ourselves, and we shouldn’t use fear for political purposes-scaring people to death so they will vote for you, or scaring people to death so that we create a terror-industrial complex.

It’s not for nothing that bin Laden and Al Qaeda chose to blow up the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. They symbolize to many around the globe the utterly pecuniary relationship between Washington and Wall Street as they plot [through the Council on Foreign Relations] how to use folks like Osama bin Laden and 9/11 to perpetuate a global economy that strives always to perserve the interests of the ruling class.

Or don't you believe there is one?

Now, I don't personally subscribe to many of the "truther" [and now "deather"] conspiracy theories. But I have little or no doubt that 9/11 and radical jihad are being used as the latest bogeyman to replace Fascism and Communism in perpetrating and perpetuating America's imperialist foreign and economic policy.

There’s simply no polite way to tell people they’ve dedicated their lives to an illusion.

BlurredSavant wrote:James, you have sailed right past the point. I never said that I know bin Laden orchestrated the 9/11 attack. What I said was, even if there had been a trial the man would've been killed. We all know it. It doesn't matter whether he did it or not, he said he did, and your claim that it wasn't him is nothing more than a theory.

A "theory" that would have been provable IF the evidence wasn't destroyed so that a court of law could never bring out the truth.

Again, an untenable situation for an honest perpetrator. "Destroy the body so we cannot be proven to be guilty". Why not preserve the body so that you CAN be proven innocent?

And realize that you are granting permission for someone to kill YOU because they believe that the evidence is sufficient (that was put in front of their eyes) and you would be put to death anyway, so why not.

Okay, here we go again.

I'm not "granting permission" for anything. I'm explaining to you the way it is. I'm not justifying it, I'm explaining why it is so. I didn't say I agree with it. I didn't say I don't have doubts about the matter. But no matter what I think, no matter whether I agree or not, it happened. Did I not say, in my initial post, that destroying the body was unwise? In my last post, the final sentence was, "...I'm not saying it's right, but that's the way it is."

I will reiterate. Learn to fucking read. Start with my first post and read forward. Take note of my non-commital tone. I did that intentionally, because unlike you I recognize that the issue has been covered in so much bullshit and politics that there is no way for me, or you, or anyone else on this fucking forum to get to the bottom of it.

"Nothing is original. Steal from anywhere that resonates with inspiration or fuels your imagination. Devour old films, new films, music, books, paintings, photographs, poems, dreams, random conversations, architecture, bridges, street signs, trees, clouds, bodies of water, light and shadows. Select only things to steal from that speak directly to your soul. If you do this, your work (and theft) will be authentic. Authenticity is invaluable; originality is non-existent. And don't bother concealing your thievery - celebrate it if you feel like it. In any case, always remember what Jean-Luc Godard said: 'It's not where you take things from - it's where you take them to.'" - Jim Jarmusch

trevor wrote:What's your (anyone here) response to people claiming that it was "wrong" to shoot ObL as an unarmed man and he should have been arrested for trial and whatnot?

Hm. My response is, "Why should we do that?"

Because without a trial it is non-judicial execution, y'know, our societies are based on the rule of human/rational law, or whatever, and that to go about executing people without trial kinda contradicts that, so, like, y'know, you don't want to come across as hypocritical n'all that...especially when you're waging a pro-democracy war in the Middle East...

Got me how? He's creating a strawman. I never said it was okay. I never said it was a smart idea. I'm just talking about what happened and why.

As to the rest of your post, why are you attempting to argue with me about an issue I didn't bring up and am not disputing? Your little condescending remarks have been noted. If possible, I'd fuck you up the ass with them.

Did I say anything about American foreign policy? Did I mention the motivations behind the 9/11 attack? Nope, pretty sure I didn't. What I did do was talk about Osama bin Laden's murder and why it would have happened even if we had captured him alive and put him on trial. If nothing else, your post just reinforces that point.

Reading comprehension helps.

"Nothing is original. Steal from anywhere that resonates with inspiration or fuels your imagination. Devour old films, new films, music, books, paintings, photographs, poems, dreams, random conversations, architecture, bridges, street signs, trees, clouds, bodies of water, light and shadows. Select only things to steal from that speak directly to your soul. If you do this, your work (and theft) will be authentic. Authenticity is invaluable; originality is non-existent. And don't bother concealing your thievery - celebrate it if you feel like it. In any case, always remember what Jean-Luc Godard said: 'It's not where you take things from - it's where you take them to.'" - Jim Jarmusch

trevor wrote:What's your (anyone here) response to people claiming that it was "wrong" to shoot ObL as an unarmed man and he should have been arrested for trial and whatnot?

Hm. My response is, "Why should we do that?"

Because without a trial it is non-judicial execution, y'know, our societies are based on the rule of human/rational law, or whatever, and that to go about executing people without trial kinda contradicts that, so, like, y'know, you don't want to come across as hypocritical n'all that...especially when you're waging a pro-democracy war in the Middle East...

I'm not waging a pro-democracy war in the Middle East, but the comment wasn't exactly literal. It was only made to emphasize my point, which apparently I have to say again.

Osama bin Laden, had he been captured and brought to the United States for a trial, would have sat before a judge, had his fun little trial, and then been executed.

"Nothing is original. Steal from anywhere that resonates with inspiration or fuels your imagination. Devour old films, new films, music, books, paintings, photographs, poems, dreams, random conversations, architecture, bridges, street signs, trees, clouds, bodies of water, light and shadows. Select only things to steal from that speak directly to your soul. If you do this, your work (and theft) will be authentic. Authenticity is invaluable; originality is non-existent. And don't bother concealing your thievery - celebrate it if you feel like it. In any case, always remember what Jean-Luc Godard said: 'It's not where you take things from - it's where you take them to.'" - Jim Jarmusch

BlurredSavant wrote: I'm not "granting permission" for anything. I'm explaining to you the way it is. I'm not justifying it, I'm explaining why it is so. I didn't say I agree with it. I didn't say I don't have doubts about the matter. But no matter what I think, no matter whether I agree or not, it happened. Did I not say, in my initial post, that destroying the body was unwise? In my last post, the final sentence was, "...I'm not saying it's right, but that's the way it is."

That's true, but, in my view, you seem to be rationalizing the action. And if you rationalize it for bin Laden then it can be rationalized for anyone. Internationally or nationally we either respect the rule of law or we don't. Now, out in the real world that is profoundly problematic of course but at least we have to be honest enough to admit it. If some other foreign nation had launched such an attack on American soil there would have been an uproar among American citizens, most of whom, in my opinion, don't really have a fucking clue as to what motivates either American foreign policy in general or the policies aimed at bin Laden and Al Qaeda in particular. At least with them everything is out in the open.

BlurredSavant wrote:....I recognize that the issue has been covered in so much bullshit and politics that there is no way for me, or you, or anyone else on this fucking forum to get to the bottom of it.

This is certainly true in my opinion. But if you probe a little deeper into the world of crony capitalism, the military/terrorist industrial comples, Bilderberg, the CFR, the Trilatteral Commission etc. you will begin to put the death of bin Laden into a context that makes following stories such as this so much clearer.

Or, perhaps, somewhat less cloudy? Politics is not bullshit for nothing. There's a reason it has to be if, in the corporate media, you are one of the ones who are paid to shovel it.

There’s simply no polite way to tell people they’ve dedicated their lives to an illusion.

"Osama bin Laden, had he been captured and brought to the United States for a trial, would have sat before a judge, had his fun little trial, and then been executed."

That, and that alone, has been my point this entire fucking time, you fucking retards.

"Nothing is original. Steal from anywhere that resonates with inspiration or fuels your imagination. Devour old films, new films, music, books, paintings, photographs, poems, dreams, random conversations, architecture, bridges, street signs, trees, clouds, bodies of water, light and shadows. Select only things to steal from that speak directly to your soul. If you do this, your work (and theft) will be authentic. Authenticity is invaluable; originality is non-existent. And don't bother concealing your thievery - celebrate it if you feel like it. In any case, always remember what Jean-Luc Godard said: 'It's not where you take things from - it's where you take them to.'" - Jim Jarmusch

Jesus FUCKING Christ, can I write it in a book and slam it against your fucking head so maybe you'll learn by osmosis?

"Nothing is original. Steal from anywhere that resonates with inspiration or fuels your imagination. Devour old films, new films, music, books, paintings, photographs, poems, dreams, random conversations, architecture, bridges, street signs, trees, clouds, bodies of water, light and shadows. Select only things to steal from that speak directly to your soul. If you do this, your work (and theft) will be authentic. Authenticity is invaluable; originality is non-existent. And don't bother concealing your thievery - celebrate it if you feel like it. In any case, always remember what Jean-Luc Godard said: 'It's not where you take things from - it's where you take them to.'" - Jim Jarmusch

BlurredSavant wrote:Osama bin Laden, had he been captured and brought to the United States for a trial, would have sat before a judge, had his fun little trial, and then been executed.

Undoubtedly, but that's not the point. The point is the trial, the rule of law, being able to represent your case, etc. etc. y'know, fundamental pillars of the society that's being fought for.

Who said that's what is being fought for? I think you need to go read iambiguous's post up there.

Just because your average moron believes that's what we're fighting for doesn't make it so, and I think most people who have put any thought into it would agree that it's pretty obvious we're not in these wars to spread democracy.

"Nothing is original. Steal from anywhere that resonates with inspiration or fuels your imagination. Devour old films, new films, music, books, paintings, photographs, poems, dreams, random conversations, architecture, bridges, street signs, trees, clouds, bodies of water, light and shadows. Select only things to steal from that speak directly to your soul. If you do this, your work (and theft) will be authentic. Authenticity is invaluable; originality is non-existent. And don't bother concealing your thievery - celebrate it if you feel like it. In any case, always remember what Jean-Luc Godard said: 'It's not where you take things from - it's where you take them to.'" - Jim Jarmusch

Got me how? He's creating a strawman. I never said it was okay. I never said it was a smart idea. I'm just talking about what happened and why.

Okay, you got me. I was using you and your argument as the strawman to proffer my own.

BlurredSavant wrote:As to the rest of your post, why are you attempting to argue with me about an issue I didn't bring up and am not disputing? Your little condescending remarks have been noted. If possible, I'd fuck you up the ass with them.

It's an issue that, in my view, must be brought up because the issue you [and the OP] brought up is really just a footnote in the whole sordid affair. In my own opinion, of course.

BlurredSavant wrote:Did I say anything about American foreign policy? Did I mention the motivations behind the 9/11 attack? Nope, pretty sure I didn't. What I did do was talk about Osama bin Laden's murder and why it would have happened even if we had captured him alive and put him on trial. If nothing else, your post just reinforces that point.

No, I brought it up. James Saint kept hinting at it but never really brought "the larger context" to anyone's attention. That's what I did.

And, of course, if we had captured bin Laden and put him on trial he'd have a chance to go into great detail about his own rendition of what truly motivates American foreign policy. Why do you suppose "military commissions" are being used on the others instead?

The last thing the American ruling class [and I don't mean that in a Marxist sense] wants is the "war on terror" to be talked about in depth.

There’s simply no polite way to tell people they’ve dedicated their lives to an illusion.

BlurredSavant wrote:Who said that's what is being fought for? I think you need to go read iambiguous's post up there.

Just because your average moron believes that's what we're fighting for doesn't make it so, and I think most people who have put any thought into it would agree that it's pretty obvious we're not in these wars to spread democracy.

BlurredSavant wrote:That's not rationalization. It's JUST THE WAY IT IS!!!!

Jesus FUCKING Christ, can I write it in a book and slam it against your fucking head so maybe you'll learn by osmosis?

Just out of curiosity, why are you so incensed here? What motivates that?

Do you really have to ask? I say what I think and I've got people throwing arguments at me that don't have anything to do with what I said, because they're based on either misinterpretations or somebody just pulling something out of their ass and pretending I said it.

"Nothing is original. Steal from anywhere that resonates with inspiration or fuels your imagination. Devour old films, new films, music, books, paintings, photographs, poems, dreams, random conversations, architecture, bridges, street signs, trees, clouds, bodies of water, light and shadows. Select only things to steal from that speak directly to your soul. If you do this, your work (and theft) will be authentic. Authenticity is invaluable; originality is non-existent. And don't bother concealing your thievery - celebrate it if you feel like it. In any case, always remember what Jean-Luc Godard said: 'It's not where you take things from - it's where you take them to.'" - Jim Jarmusch

BlurredSavant wrote:Who said that's what is being fought for? I think you need to go read iambiguous's post up there.

Just because your average moron believes that's what we're fighting for doesn't make it so, and I think most people who have put any thought into it would agree that it's pretty obvious we're not in these wars to spread democracy.

Am talkin' bout the PR, mmm'kay? The official front, mmm'kay?

Do you think the official front is important?

Why shouldn't we try a little honesty for once?

"Nothing is original. Steal from anywhere that resonates with inspiration or fuels your imagination. Devour old films, new films, music, books, paintings, photographs, poems, dreams, random conversations, architecture, bridges, street signs, trees, clouds, bodies of water, light and shadows. Select only things to steal from that speak directly to your soul. If you do this, your work (and theft) will be authentic. Authenticity is invaluable; originality is non-existent. And don't bother concealing your thievery - celebrate it if you feel like it. In any case, always remember what Jean-Luc Godard said: 'It's not where you take things from - it's where you take them to.'" - Jim Jarmusch

BlurredSavant wrote:That's not rationalization. It's JUST THE WAY IT IS!!!!

Jesus FUCKING Christ, can I write it in a book and slam it against your fucking head so maybe you'll learn by osmosis?

Just out of curiosity, why are you so incensed here? What motivates that?

Do you really have to ask? I say what I think and I've got people throwing arguments at me that don't have anything to do with what I said, because they're based on either misinterpretations or somebody just pulling something out of their ass and pretending I said it.

Okay, but most of what we say eventually has to be put in a larger and larger context. And surely that is the case regarding the killing of bin Laden. There is a context even larger than my own: What is it about human nature that makes these things not only possible but prevalent throughout our history?

Anyway, to me you seem to be more pissed off at others for not agreeing with you [or not agreeing with how you believe the argument should be framed] than you do with the argument itself.

I do that sometimes myself. But then I'm a polemist. It's all calculated.

There’s simply no polite way to tell people they’ve dedicated their lives to an illusion.

I really don't give a shit if others agree with me or not. I did not come into this thread to discuss a personal opinion. It's not about whether I agree or disagree. I'm just talking about something that happened, and leaving out how I feel about it. Still didn't get that? How many more times should I say it? 100? 1,000? What will it take?

And I don't give a shit about how the argument is "framed", whatever the fuck that means. I have no issue with the points you brought up other than how you misinterpreted what I said and then related your points to that misinterpretation.

"Nothing is original. Steal from anywhere that resonates with inspiration or fuels your imagination. Devour old films, new films, music, books, paintings, photographs, poems, dreams, random conversations, architecture, bridges, street signs, trees, clouds, bodies of water, light and shadows. Select only things to steal from that speak directly to your soul. If you do this, your work (and theft) will be authentic. Authenticity is invaluable; originality is non-existent. And don't bother concealing your thievery - celebrate it if you feel like it. In any case, always remember what Jean-Luc Godard said: 'It's not where you take things from - it's where you take them to.'" - Jim Jarmusch

I'll agree that it's interesting. It's interesting to hear what they'll come up with next. It's also sickening, frustrating, and sometimes soul-crushing (for me, at least).

"Nothing is original. Steal from anywhere that resonates with inspiration or fuels your imagination. Devour old films, new films, music, books, paintings, photographs, poems, dreams, random conversations, architecture, bridges, street signs, trees, clouds, bodies of water, light and shadows. Select only things to steal from that speak directly to your soul. If you do this, your work (and theft) will be authentic. Authenticity is invaluable; originality is non-existent. And don't bother concealing your thievery - celebrate it if you feel like it. In any case, always remember what Jean-Luc Godard said: 'It's not where you take things from - it's where you take them to.'" - Jim Jarmusch

The people who make the news, of course. It filters down from somewhere. People in political circles, I'd wager.

Soul crushing You've invested yourself into it too much - politics is like nuclear waste, keep a safe distance.

It's soul-crushing to me because the nonsense is like toxic waste spreading around the entire world. Whenever I think too much or too deeply on the state of the world, whenever I consider all the proven and unproven lies our own government feeds us, whenever I ponder how many people out there are completely oblivious to anything but their own little bubble, I feel....I dunno. It's difficult to explain. I feel like I'm going to explode, like I need to get away, like I wish the whole world would just blow up and everyone would die, I start to wonder if I shouldn't just fucking kill myself because that's the only way to get away from it. I feel as if my very soul is being crushed by the weight of the world.

"Nothing is original. Steal from anywhere that resonates with inspiration or fuels your imagination. Devour old films, new films, music, books, paintings, photographs, poems, dreams, random conversations, architecture, bridges, street signs, trees, clouds, bodies of water, light and shadows. Select only things to steal from that speak directly to your soul. If you do this, your work (and theft) will be authentic. Authenticity is invaluable; originality is non-existent. And don't bother concealing your thievery - celebrate it if you feel like it. In any case, always remember what Jean-Luc Godard said: 'It's not where you take things from - it's where you take them to.'" - Jim Jarmusch

BlurredSavant wrote:It's soul-crushing to me because the nonsense is like toxic waste spreading around the entire world. Whenever I think too much or too deeply on the state of the world, whenever I consider all the proven and unproven lies our own government feeds us, whenever I ponder how many people out there are completely oblivious to anything but their own little bubble, I feel....I dunno. It's difficult to explain. I feel like I'm going to explode, like I need to get away, like I wish the whole world would just blow up and everyone would die, I start to wonder if I shouldn't just fucking kill myself because that's the only way to get away from it. I feel as if my very soul is being crushed by the weight of the world.

"Nothing is original. Steal from anywhere that resonates with inspiration or fuels your imagination. Devour old films, new films, music, books, paintings, photographs, poems, dreams, random conversations, architecture, bridges, street signs, trees, clouds, bodies of water, light and shadows. Select only things to steal from that speak directly to your soul. If you do this, your work (and theft) will be authentic. Authenticity is invaluable; originality is non-existent. And don't bother concealing your thievery - celebrate it if you feel like it. In any case, always remember what Jean-Luc Godard said: 'It's not where you take things from - it's where you take them to.'" - Jim Jarmusch