My bad.I didn't read it correctly.You are speaking of a spiritual state of being content with oneself.The question is, is that self contenance really joy?Shouldn't joy be like a radiating light, full of life, rather the succumbance to circumstances?Is that the only joy for us?Is that the only "joy" availlable to us having to conform rather with things rather than try to change them?Doesn't that encourage a stagnant non-evolving faith?

There's nothing stagnant in overcoming the curve balls of life. One needs to accept how things are before they can change them, rather than escaping into la-la land. If life was meant to be a bed of roses, we would have no need for a Paraclete.

Shouldn't joy be more than self-contentment?

Life was meant to have the need of the Paraclete and be deprived of it, sounds a little bit sadistic.

What you believe that joy should be and what it actually is don't have to coincide.

Jesus Christ warned repeatedly that those who follow him would have to bear their own crosses, and then reassured them that He would send the Paraclete (=Consoler) in his stead after His Ascension.

Don't know about you, but all this talk of crosses and needing consolation makes me think life is meant to be a pretty hardcore affair.

Which means if you are happy, then he will do everything to make you miserable?

Doesn't that sound a bit sadistic?

Hey, nobody's forcing you to sign up.

The TOS for following Christ are as they are. Those who don't like them go find a better bargain. I just wish they'd be honest and leave Christ out of it.

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'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls

My bad.I didn't read it correctly.You are speaking of a spiritual state of being content with oneself.The question is, is that self contenance really joy?Shouldn't joy be like a radiating light, full of life, rather the succumbance to circumstances?Is that the only joy for us?Is that the only "joy" availlable to us having to conform rather with things rather than try to change them?Doesn't that encourage a stagnant non-evolving faith?

There's nothing stagnant in overcoming the curve balls of life. One needs to accept how things are before they can change them, rather than escaping into la-la land. If life was meant to be a bed of roses, we would have no need for a Paraclete.

Shouldn't joy be more than self-contentment?

Life was meant to have the need of the Paraclete and be deprived of it, sounds a little bit sadistic.

We are not deprived of the Paraclete.

It was his argument.We cannot need something we have.We only need what we miss.

Or that, which we do not wish to recieve.

I get it , it's always us.

We are the ones that actually desire hell and want to be tortured for eternity but than again no one does.Man oh man!

No we are the ones who exist in a fallen state as a consequence of the fall.

God extends His hand to us. It is our choice, whether we want to take it or not.

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Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

Ok use them and show me that the Church is true without circular reasoning.

Well, you see - that's a lifetime's work and everyone needs to sort it out for himself.

You can take it as a leap of faith (on trust) - if I tried to convince you, you could always suspect me of proselytizing/ulterior motives. Last, but not least - I might not be 100% convinced myself.

In the old understanding, faith (emunah) is not as much being convinced of certain metaphysical truths, but steadfast abiding in a covenant or keeping your word (the things vowed at Baptism, for instance).

People you can trust, like who, even the church fathers had errors.

So you actually confess that you doubt the veridicity of the Church.Nice!

My bad.I didn't read it correctly.You are speaking of a spiritual state of being content with oneself.The question is, is that self contenance really joy?Shouldn't joy be like a radiating light, full of life, rather the succumbance to circumstances?Is that the only joy for us?Is that the only "joy" availlable to us having to conform rather with things rather than try to change them?Doesn't that encourage a stagnant non-evolving faith?

There's nothing stagnant in overcoming the curve balls of life. One needs to accept how things are before they can change them, rather than escaping into la-la land. If life was meant to be a bed of roses, we would have no need for a Paraclete.

Shouldn't joy be more than self-contentment?

Life was meant to have the need of the Paraclete and be deprived of it, sounds a little bit sadistic.

We are not deprived of the Paraclete.

It was his argument.We cannot need something we have.We only need what we miss.

Or that, which we do not wish to recieve.

I get it , it's always us.

We are the ones that actually desire hell and want to be tortured for eternity but than again no one does.Man oh man!

No we are the ones who exist in a fallen state as a consequence of the fall.

God extends His hand to us. It is our choice, whether we want to take it or not.

My bad.I didn't read it correctly.You are speaking of a spiritual state of being content with oneself.The question is, is that self contenance really joy?Shouldn't joy be like a radiating light, full of life, rather the succumbance to circumstances?Is that the only joy for us?Is that the only "joy" availlable to us having to conform rather with things rather than try to change them?Doesn't that encourage a stagnant non-evolving faith?

There's nothing stagnant in overcoming the curve balls of life. One needs to accept how things are before they can change them, rather than escaping into la-la land. If life was meant to be a bed of roses, we would have no need for a Paraclete.

Shouldn't joy be more than self-contentment?

Life was meant to have the need of the Paraclete and be deprived of it, sounds a little bit sadistic.

We are not deprived of the Paraclete.

It was his argument.We cannot need something we have.We only need what we miss.

Or that, which we do not wish to recieve.

I get it , it's always us.

We are the ones that actually desire hell and want to be tortured for eternity but than again no one does.Man oh man!

No we are the ones who exist in a fallen state as a consequence of the fall.

God extends His hand to us. It is our choice, whether we want to take it or not.

It was not our choice to be born in a fallen state.

Exactly, and that it why God offers to help us, but He don't want to force us.

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Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

ok but they are not people.and my next question would be which ones.there are a few "thief councils".

Just out of curiosity, at what point does a group of people (like a council) cease to be "people"?

Which is the year of the eight Ecumenical Council?

Ask an Orthodox the same question.

The Ecumenical Councils also called Synods represent references to canon laws and ecclesiastical decisions.

But be it as you like.. We can trust any group of people from within the Church? How do you explain the thief councils than?

But isn't that the "circular reasoning" we're trying to avoid? We can trust the Councils to be of God because the people who conducted them claimed to be inspired by God. But how do you decide if the people who made that claim are worthy of being trusted?

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"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

That we must admit the limits of our knowledge. Like St. Paul, we haven't met Christ in the flesh - we rely on other people's testimony.

We might have trusted the wrong people. Their testimony might be false. Jesus Christ might not have risen from the dead - then we've lost the wager and we're the most miserable of all. That is the shadow of our faith - we ought to admit it, if we wish to be completely truthful.

That we must admit the limits of our knowledge. Like St. Paul, we haven't met Christ in the flesh - we rely on other people's testimony.

We might have trusted the wrong people. Their testimony might be false. Jesus Christ might not have risen from the dead - then we've lost the wager and we're the most miserable of all. That is the shadow of our faith - we ought to admit it, if we wish to be completely truthful.

Your argument is a flaw.Paul says "We" and by your argument Paul who wrote that Epistle met Christ in the flesh.

That we must admit the limits of our knowledge. Like St. Paul, we haven't met Christ in the flesh - we rely on other people's testimony.

We might have trusted the wrong people. Their testimony might be false. Jesus Christ might not have risen from the dead - then we've lost the wager and we're the most miserable of all. That is the shadow of our faith - we ought to admit it, if we wish to be completely truthful.

Your argument is a flaw.Paul says "We" and by your argument Paul who wrote that Epistle met Christ in the flesh.

What do you demand? That Christ must appear before you?

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Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

Your argument is a flaw.Paul says "We" and by your argument Paul who wrote that Epistle met Christ in the flesh.

I wasn't arguing - I was just quoting.

St. Paul met Christ in the spirit (when he appeared to him on the way to Damascus), not in the flesh. According to 2 Corinthians 5, knowing Christ "in the spirit" is superior to knowing him "in the flesh" - cf. "Because you have seen me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen, and yet have believed." (John 20:29)

When St. Paul says 'we' he means himself and the entire community of believers.

That we must admit the limits of our knowledge. Like St. Paul, we haven't met Christ in the flesh - we rely on other people's testimony.

We might have trusted the wrong people. Their testimony might be false. Jesus Christ might not have risen from the dead - then we've lost the wager and we're the most miserable of all. That is the shadow of our faith - we ought to admit it, if we wish to be completely truthful.

Your argument is a flaw.Paul says "We" and by your argument Paul who wrote that Epistle met Christ in the flesh.

...how can you know anything is true? how can you discern between truth and lie? Can you give an answer to that , that doesn't contain circular reasoning?

Nope I can't give an answer to that. In fact, technically speaking, it is impossible to know 100% if anything is true or false. Even rationalism itself is built upon faith that our minds are capable of discerning between the truth and falsehood--this is ultimately what led to David Hume's downfall into nihilism. Strict skepticism--if taken too far--is self contradictory. The point is that somewhere along the line, we have to set a standard based on faith. I have faith that my mind is capable of discerning between truth and falsehood, and that I could use these faculties to examine the evidence of the position presented by the Church and I am convinced that it is the true message of Christ delivered by the Apostles.

What are the benefits of ones life who worships in a legalistic religion through rituals and a religious system ?

Orthodoxy might have rituals (liturgy) and a religious system (dogmas), as well as canon law. That doesn't automatically make it legalistic, ritualistic and obtuse. It's an open 'system', not a prison for the intellect, nor a straightjacket of prescribed behaviour.

...how can you know anything is true? how can you discern between truth and lie? Can you give an answer to that , that doesn't contain circular reasoning?

Nope I can't give an answer to that. In fact, technically speaking, it is impossible to know 100% if anything is true or false. Even rationalism itself is built upon faith that our minds are capable of discerning between the truth and falsehood--this is ultimately what led to David Hume's downfall into nihilism. Strict skepticism--if taken too far--is self contradictory. The point is that somewhere along the line, we have to set a standard based on faith. I have faith that my mind is capable of discerning between truth and falsehood, and that I could use these faculties to examine the evidence of the position presented by the Church and I am convinced that it is the true message of Christ delivered by the Apostles.

Different people are convinced of different things.

My point exactly, you cannot fully prove anything is true unless you reveal an universal standard by which you can know something is true.

Though I made another thread about truth.

This thread is not specifically about proving the Church is true, but about this two specific behaviours and their effect on people.

What are the benefits of ones life who worships in a legalistic religion through rituals and a religious system ?

Orthodoxy might have rituals (liturgy) and a religious system (dogmas), as well as canon law. That doesn't automatically make it legalistic, ritualistic and obtuse. It's an open 'system', not a prison for the intellect, nor a straightjacket of prescribed behaviour.

Not what I asked.And I'm not here to contest the Church.

What are the specific benefits(in your life) of worshiping through rituals and religious systems if you don't like the term legalism.Though i would say "a canon law" is pretty legalistic from my POV.Usually Law = Law.

Well, among other things, it prevents you from splitting into 40.000 different denomination.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with rituals, as long they are not empty.

Ok.Good one.

What are the benefits of ones life who worships in a legalistic religion through rituals and religious system ?

Well, personally it has positively influenced my prayer life.

how ? the church has specific composed prayers ?

I am trying to study this two christian behaviours and not necessarly the whole that it suppose a certain church.

So give arguments from this perspective of legalistic and ritualistic benefits in your life.

It's getting really late and I have to sleep soon, but I will give you a short answer.Since many people (including myself) are not very good at praying, the Church offers help . Many of our prayers were written by great saints who lived very pious lives. We learn from them and develpoe our prayer life with the support and help from Chriist and His Church.

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Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

Well, among other things, it prevents you from splitting into 40.000 different denomination.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with rituals, as long they are not empty.

Ok.Good one.

What are the benefits of ones life who worships in a legalistic religion through rituals and religious system ?

Well, personally it has positively influenced my prayer life.

how ? the church has specific composed prayers ?

I am trying to study this two christian behaviours and not necessarly the whole that it suppose a certain church.

So give arguments from this perspective of legalistic and ritualistic benefits in your life.

It's getting really late and I have to sleep soon, but I will give you a short answer.Since many people (including myself) are not very good at praying, the Church offers help . Many of our prayers were written by great saints who lived very pious lives. We learn from them and develpoe our prayer life with the support and help from Chriist and His Church.

What are the specific benefits(in your life) of worshiping through rituals and religious systems

The fact that I worship more or less in the same manner as my forefathers, the Saints and millions of Orthodox Christians worldwide and throughout the ages. It makes you feel that what you do is not arbitrary and idiosyncratic. You go beyond your narrow subjectivity and are a part of a larger Body. Rituals give you a certain discipline and a forma mentis, which is not imposed, but emulated and sought after like something precious.

if you don't like the term legalism.Though i would say "a canon law" is pretty legalistic from my POV.Usually Law = Law.

Orthodoxy is not legalistic, because it does not impose a rigid legal corpus without regard for persons and circumstances - the spiritual father has the freedom of choosing between akribeia (strict adherence to the law) and oikonomia (leniency or complete overseeing of a rule, if it's in the person's best interest).

What are the specific benefits(in your life) of worshiping through rituals and religious systems

The fact that I worship more or less in the same manner as my forefathers, the Saints and millions of Orthodox Christians worldwide and throughout the ages. It makes you feel that what you do is not arbitrary and idiosyncratic. You go beyond your narrow subjectivity and are a part of a larger Body. Rituals give you a certain discipline and a forma mentis, which is not imposed, but emulated and sought after like something precious.

if you don't like the term legalism.Though i would say "a canon law" is pretty legalistic from my POV.Usually Law = Law.

Orthodoxy is not legalistic, because it does not impose a rigid legal corpus without regard for persons and circumstances - the spiritual father has the freedom of choosing between akribeia (strict adherence to the law) and oikonomia (leniency or complete overseeing of a rule, if it's in the person's best interest).

Good one : discipline.

Anyway you sound like you are in a conflict with yourself.You say you are not fully convinced and that you have doubts yet you force yourself down your throat with this.

Anyway you sound like you are in a conflict with yourself.You say you are not fully convinced and that you have doubts yet you force yourself down your throat with this.

At times I feel like that, at times I don't. Good medicine can taste bitter. If in the end it works, it's worth it to endure the bitterness.

There's the old man of the flesh and there's the new man of the spirit. The Christian is supposed to be in a constant struggle with himself, with the world and the adversary. That doesn't exclude joy, peace and serenity - one can actually experience conflicting emotions at the same time, albeit on different levels.

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For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am of the flesh, sold into slavery under sin. I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good. But in fact it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do what is good, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God in my inmost self, but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind, making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh I am a slave to the law of sin. Romans 7:14- 24

Anyway you sound like you are in a conflict with yourself.You say you are not fully convinced and that you have doubts yet you force yourself down your throat with this.

At times I feel like that, at times I don't. Good medicine can taste bitter. If in the end it works, it's worth it to endure the bitterness.

There's the old man of the flesh and there's the new man of the spirit. The Christian is supposed to be in a constant struggle with himself, with the world and the adversary. That doesn't exclude joy, peace and serenity - one can actually experience conflicting emotions at the same time, albeit on different levels.

Quote

For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am of the flesh, sold into slavery under sin. I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good. But in fact it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do what is good, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God in my inmost self, but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind, making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh I am a slave to the law of sin. Romans 7:14- 24

Anyway you sound like you are in a conflict with yourself.You say you are not fully convinced and that you have doubts yet you force yourself down your throat with this.

At times I feel like that, at times I don't. Good medicine can taste bitter. If in the end it works, it's worth it to endure the bitterness.

There's the old man of the flesh and there's the new man of the spirit. The Christian is supposed to be in a constant struggle with himself, with the world and the adversary. That doesn't exclude joy, peace and serenity - one can actually experience conflicting emotions at the same time, albeit on different levels.

Quote

For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am of the flesh, sold into slavery under sin. I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good. But in fact it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do what is good, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God in my inmost self, but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind, making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh I am a slave to the law of sin. Romans 7:14- 24

Than you are lying to yourself and living a dead religion.

Are you sure, you're orthodox?

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Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.