Friday, February 23, 2007

Digging for controversy, the Titanic filmmaker James Cameron and Simcha Jacobovici are about to stun Christians the world over with a docu-drama that claims archaeologists have located the casket of Jesus.

The inscribed box, with some human remains still inside, apparently was crammed into an old cave near Talpiyot, an industrial zone in Jerusalem, alongside nine other two thousand year-old sarcophagi allegedly containing the bodies of Mother Mary, the carpenter Joseph, a little-known brother called Jofah, Mary Magdalene, and, most surprisingly of all, Jesus's son Judah, who technically could be considered the grandson of God.To read more, click here.

It sounds like a sequel to a Da Vinci Code sequel. And just as profitable. The filmmakers express aim is to cross the excitement of Indiana Jones-style tomb raiding with Dan Brown's bold approach to modern theology, all in a 90 minute video.

A couple of these mysterious bone boxes are about to be unveiled in New York City, in good time to promote Cameron's latest made-for-television movie, which will be broadcast on Discovery Channel in the US, Channel 8 in Israel, and Channel 4 in Britain before Easter.

Devout Christian congregations will abhor Cameron's publicity stunt as absolute heresy. Some 27 years after archaeologists first uncovered this unprepossessing family tomb containing half a dozen inscribed caskets and four unmarked ones, the sensational scientific claims now threaten to debunk belief in the Resurrection, a cornerstone of the Christian faith. The New Testament recounts how three days after crucifixion, Jesus arose from the grave (which is now supposedly the site of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre at the heart of Jerusalem's old walled city.) But scientists, archaeologists, DNA experts, statisticians,and antiquities specialists are suggesting that Jesus's burial site was on a hill rather far away from the old rugged cross.

Repercussions of the initial discovery were minimized, even after Israeli professor Amos Kloner deciphered the inscriptions containing such profoundly familiar Biblical names a decade ago, because the Israeli Antiquities Authority stored the caskets in their Beit Shemesh archive. Little publicity leaked out. Biblical archaeology has proven to be a minefield, albeit with a certain sects' appeal. Who could have foreseen that forensic tests could be made on Jesus' bones in a New York crime lab? If you thought that the Israeli archaeologists' salvage tunnel close to the Al Aqsa mosque ignited some religious fury, get ready for another white hot fight. Remember the Spanish Inquisition? Or the fuss over teaching Darwin's theory of Evolution? After Monday's press conference, Izzy imagines it won't be long before an intelligent design component emerges for the holy caskets in the cave. "King of the World", eh?

Here is the inscription that started all the speculation, from the webpage of savvy Simcha Jacobovici, who dubbed himself the "Naked Archaeologist"

Yawn. The BBC did a program on this in April 1996 (Heart of the Matter> Body in Question) and the London Sunday Times wrote up the discovery too (The Tomb that Dare mnot Speak its Name). No big Christian slugout ensued. Content to shroud the barebones of the religion in mystery.

That old ST article was by Joan Bakewell, published on Palm Sunday 1996.(31-03-1966) A US audience, considerably more devout, will see these ossuaries more than ten years later. A new book, written by Simcha Jacobovici, James Cameron's sidekick, is out this month, It is called "The Jesus Family Tomb"

3 of the big league ossuaries, supposedly belonging to Mary, Mary Magdalene, and Christ ALmighty, are going to be put on display in NYC by the man who brought you the Terminator. But the St James ossuary kind of fizzled out. Stay tuned...and also, the Sunday Times article was titled "The Tomb that Dared not Speak its Mind" But never mind.

There are already quite a few books out based on this exact same premise and even on the discovery of these tombs. A true believer will keep his beliefs - if you believe jesus was god then a little fact like a tomb won't change your mind - Da Vinci code didn't convert any one I know in either direction.

I think what gets overlooked is that a tomb was found and some common Hebrew names on the ossuaries. Who is making the quantum leap? Maybe Jacobovici and Cameron perhaps? The other thing is how are DNA tests going to prove anything? All it MIGHT prove is some of these people are related but does the NYC crime lab have DNA of Jesus' family to use for comparison purposes? Sounds like slick marketing, huge leaps of faith by Cameron and Jacobovici even more faith that Christians need to have.

"The other thing is how are DNA tests going to prove anything? All it MIGHT prove is some of these people are related but does the NYC crime lab have DNA of Jesus' family to use for comparison purposes?"

i think this could be an amazing time for christianity. being a devout catholic, it'll be interesting to see if these discoveries are proven true, and how the church will respond. i do believe the discovery of christ's body and christianity are not mutually exclusive.

too bad cameron's using it as a publicity stunt, but the truth will come out one way or another.

You could actually MAYBE compare Christ's DNA -- if you could get a hold of a piece of the Shroud Of Turin. The Catholic Church, however, is pretty protective of that garment.

Before any of you raging devout Christians dismiss this latest, however, remember your Gnostic Gospels. The Church has been trying to cover up the real identity of Jesus for centuries, probably because it would destroy the myth.

They've been trying to put the Lord back into the grave for 2,000 years. Who paid for those lavish ossuaries? The Lord's earthly family wasn't exactly flush with cash. The Biblical account has him being buried in a borrowed tomb. Perhaps some of the people he raised from the dead, or cured from sickness, chipped in or had a bake sale? They will have to show me the nails through his hands and feet, his side pierced, before I'll believe it's his lifeless body.

I think the filmakers "express aim" of combining Indiana Jones with Dan Brown's "theology" which has been proven to be pure fiction says a lot. Fiction+fiction=fiction. I believe this tomb was discovered 30 years ago and the writing translated over 10 years ago. This is a sudden new discovery? Cameron's motives probably have more to do with antagonizing Christians in America than in scientific archeology discovery.

Hehe, I wonder if James Cameron bothered to check the hands and feet for nail-inflicted injury to the bones. Did he even bother to date the age of the body? Roman records of this era are very detailed and the fact of the matter is that Jesus was crucified, and he was appx. 33 years old. I doubt Cameron in all his holy glory bothered to check. lol

Two big problems: (1) the inscription shown in the sample on the blog is too sharp, not worn, it is recent like the James ossuary fake.

(2) all those names were frequently used back then.

In addition, Mary Magdalen's remains are known to be in Europe (especially if you want to side with the Holy Blood, Holy Grail and Da Vinci Conspiracy crew) so that isn't her bones in Israel.

Finally, The Holy Fire or Holy Light WHICH FLIES AROUND ON ITS OWN LIGHTING LAMPS AND CANDLES after it has lit the candles of the Greek Patriarch on Holy Saturday before Pascha, Eastern Orthodox Easter, comes out of the Empty Tomb Jesus resurrected from. This sacred fire only comes to the Greek Patriarch's prayers, never to a Latin or a monophysite, and cannot be fraud, since it flies about lighting other candles and lamps on its own, at the Churchof The Holy Sepulchre. http://www.pravmir.com/article_94. html http://www.holylight.gr/agiofos/holyli.htmlhttp://home.it.net.au/~jgrapsas/pages/Light.htm

"This divine light also presents some peculiarities: As soon as it appears it has a bluish hue and does not burn. At the first moments of its appearance, if it touches the face, or the mouth, or the hands, it does not burn. This is proof of its divine and supernatural origin. We must also take into consideration that the Holy Light appears only by the invocation of an Orthodox Archbishop. Each time the Heterodox Bishops tried to obtain it, they failed.

Once the Armenians paid the Turks, who then occupied the Holy Land, in order to obtain permission for their Patriarch to enter the Holy Sepulchre, The Orthodox Patriarch was standing sorrowfully with his flock at the exit of the Church, near the left column, when the Holy Light appeared and split this column vertically and flashed near the Orthodox Patriarch.

A Moslem Muezin, called Tounom, who saw the miraculous event from an adjacent mosque, abandoned immediately the Moslem religion and became an Orthodox Christian. This event took place in 1549 under Sultan Mourad IV, when the Patriarch of Jerusalem was Sophrony II. ( The mentioned split column still exists, which goes back to the Twelfth century. The Orthodox pilgrims embrace it at the "place of the split" as they enter the Church)."

The fact that some pretty common names cluster together in a tomb, and appear to be JC's family - with some odd differences - well it should ring bells: wrong family. But there's no doubt it's great marketing.

Questioning the existence of God and Jesus should come as no surprise to Christians. Jesus himself predicted that those who love him will be hated, just as he was hated. And, it will only get worse. Christians will be hated, despised and ridiculed more so than ever. This was predicted in the New Testament and it is happening at an ever increased rate. I'm amazed that Jesus, who preached love, respect, caring for the poor and the sick, is so hated in our secular culture. If there is no God, there is no hope. Death, to seculatists, is nothing more than an empty void. If this is the case, why should we even care about war, disease, poverty or global warming, for that matter? None of this will make any difference after we're dead. If the secular atheists are correct, then all are dreams, hopes, desires are nothing more than illusions. Political correctness does not apply if you're a Christian. Hatred of those who love Jesus will be more rampant as the years pass. Just as Jesus predicted.

Cameron took a real event; the Titanic sinking, and added a fictitious story to it... made bazillions. In light of that, this story seems oddly familiar. I share the same interest of everyone else as to just what DNA they are going to baseline for this 'archeological investigation'? Also, they discovered these tombs in 1980 and 27 years later they are just now making this kind of public appearance? How do you spell "tool" Aramaic? Cause that's what these dudes are.

Great Zombie Jesus!!! What the hell kind of DNA tests could Cameron be running to connect old bones with the "Son of God"?!? Perhaps he has a piece of the true cross or a scrap of the Shroud of Turin.

A real tomb containing the remains of a ficticious character. for his next trick, Cameron will reveal the tomb of Conan the Barbarian. Then we shall all finally know the riddle of steel.

This debate is all moot anyway. Everyone knows that the Vatican has the real "returned" Jesus locked in a box under the Pope's potty. They ain't letting the guy out 'til they squeeze every penny out of the foolishly faithful.

lol..definitely interesting. For one thing, anyone will do anything for money. Even if these caskets do exists and presented facts are true, for all we know, an anti-Christian person (historically persecuted, especially in the first few centuries in that region), or a kid, may have found this tomb long ago and inscribed on it as a prank. I could get someone to inscribe "Emperor of the Universe" on the casket of someone and let someone else discover it many years later and let them draw overblown conclusions from my prank inscription!

I was not at the resurrection, and neither was James Cameron, but the disciplies of Jesus saw something, and they all went forward preaching his message and not caring if they lived or died. Nearly all died violent deaths for their teaching. Does James Cameron believe so strongly about this that he will die? Show the film, make some money, do some praying.

Oh, I just bought Terminator (1), and how I wish Cameron would have stuck to projects such as that. Honestly, revealing ossuaries at a press conference? Claiming to be bringing out ossuaries of three important religious figures, one of them to many of us G-d Himself, to promote a documentary? Could he be more insulting?

On a lighter note, at least I found this blog through this story. I rather like it here. Can I stick around?

The problem with the DaVinci Code is the same problem with these supposed "finding," Horrible Deconstruction of history! Any one can rewrite history to make a "story." In addition to the Biblical accounts of Jesus life we have a plethora of info from the early church fathers like Eusebius, Polycarp, Marcion, Origen, etc... and historians like Josephus, Herodotus, Xenophen. Do you honestly think no one would have noticed Jesus chilin' outside of Jerusalem and raising a family. Even if the boxes are legitimately 2000 years old and the inscriptions match. Is it beyond the whelm of possibility that some of the Jewish leaders would not have staged a deliberate plot to plant some bodies in an attempt to discredit the testimony of Jesus followers and the 500+ people that saw him resurrected after they same him crucified?

I wonder when Cameron and his Jewish Hollywood buddies will take on Mohammed. Did he really ride a flying horse to Jerusalem? That might anger the wrong people though. If Cameron is really so brave then I'm sure that wouldn't bother him. All in search of the truth, right? Not the almighty dollar that he and his friends worship (which, as a fiat currency, is worth absolutely nothing).

DaVinci Code is a novel as in fiction. Dale Brown admits to it.This is another attempt to make Jesus nothing more then just another man. Take your choice...all men must. I choose life....Jesus the Christ...the Son oF God.

Mathatos, in fact the Jewish leaders did exactly that.It says in the Bible in Matthew 28:11-15 -

"While the women were on their way, some of the guards went into the city and reported to the chief priests everything that had happened. When the chief priests had met with the elders and devised a plan, they gave the soldiers a large sum of money, telling them, "You are to say, 'His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep.' If this report gets to the governor, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble." So the soldiers took the money and did as they were instructed. And this story has been widely circulated among the Jews to this very day."

This is certainly a helluva lot more likely to be a true find than Noah's arc or some of the other mythological crap which otherwise sane people spend years and bucketloads of money to verify. It's called faith. I think it's a lot of hooey, but if you had it, you wouldn't need to find a bunch of proof for your beliefs. Keep them to yourself, thank you very much. If I want your opinion on ancient history and cults, Jesus, the latino guy down the street, and I will kick it out of you.

Oh yeah, and Jason, those Roman records you're talking about,ummm, they are part of your vast mythology too. Don't exist. Never did. There is not one shred of description or record from the time of christ that he existed at all. Surprising too, since Pilate was a copious writer of letters back to Rome detailing his successes. One would think he would have mentioned a momentous execution during which the whole world went dark and etc. Nope, not one shred anywhere. People have been spreading that crap for years. If there weren't so many lies like that that are used to support your faith, it might be easier to take it seriously. And I know what you're thinking. But millions of people can't be wrong. I give you the Germans of the 30's and early 40's, millions of them believing in one man and his vision. All of them wrong, wrong, emphatically wrong.

Faith is certainly foundational but hopefully not blind. The key to faith is the object your faith is in. Thin ice over a lake will not hold you up regardless of the sincerity or passion of your faith. I indeed have placed my Faith in Jesus Christ. But I would have to confess it is not blindly. The evidence of the authenticity of the Old and New Testaments is massive. The evidence as to the reality of Jesus Life, Death, and Resurrection both Biblical and Extra-Biblical is overwhelming. Far more than the evidence available to prove the existence of George Washington. The faith that is most blind is the faith in spurious claims of professors and scholars and the students that regurgitate shallow quotes about the absence of Pilate's reference to Christ, as a a watershed proof that Christ never existed. I do not know of any NT scholar conservative or liberal that would honestly make that claim. Laughable!!!

"the sensational scientific claims now threaten to debunk belief in the Resurrection"

Hardly.

Raising the corpses of peoples' spirits out of the tombs of their bodies requires NO belief, as a Christian, that Jesus' physical body was anything but a normal human body.

Jesus, during His ministry and after His death, used the Holy Spirit to quicken humans into true life, even saying "Let the (spiritually) dead bury their (physical) dead."

If it was NOT the life of Spirit, if Jesus was handing out some kind of physical-immortality instead of calling us to the Heaven of Nearness to God, then THAT debases His life, His Mission and His death on the cross.

Finding His mortal remains IN NO WAY challenges the faith of a Christian, any more that Christ's return May 23, 1844 challenges Christ or Christian faith.

ummm mathatos, this statement right here proves you are completely looney:

"The evidence as to the reality of Jesus Life, Death, and Resurrection both Biblical and Extra-Biblical is overwhelming. Far more than the evidence available to prove the existence of George Washington."

More evidence for the resurrection of Christ than of the first President of the United States of America. Keep impressing us with your genius and arrogance please...

Once upon a time, Yahweh created everything. Somewhere in there, he had a fight with one of his angels, Lucifer. (never mind what this says about the potential for wars in heaven). Yahweh won this war and cast Lucifer into a pit for 1000 years, after which he was let out in the form of a talking snake. The snake was sent to earth where he deceived a completely naive woman and tricked her into eating a piece of forbidden fruit. Yahweh became so upset that he condemmed the woman and her husband to death and kicked them out of paradise. Yahweh and humanity went back and forth then next few thousand years in sort of a love/hate relationship until yahweh became so angry at humanity that the only way he could "forgive" us was by sending himself here, then sacrificing himself to himself so that we all might be saved. Just another blood sacrifice to appease and angry god........

It is technically impossible to determine the genuine identities of the skeletons since there is no reliable, tangible, 2000 yaer old evidence to match it to.

However, once the media whip this discovery into a frenzy one should not be surprised if Amargeddon becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy after all - fulfilled by believers who gladly ignore that the Jesus of the New Testament strictly requested that his followers abided by the 10 commandmends. 'Thou shalt not kill' is one of them.

It's not like the Jews didn't have their eyes on what the new sect was doing...

They even tried a bribe..."have the Roman soldiers tell them his disciples stole the body"...

They were watching his tomb...what happened, they moved His body from one tomb to another?The Jews would have trumpeted that from one end of Palestine to the other if they even had an inkling of a suspicion that it was so.Their own attempt to discredit went nowhere...because the body was gone...and living eye-witnesses were around to dispute it.

Yep, conspiracy theories have always been with us, along with debunking, as nothing new.

The timing had to be right...Joseph probably died sometime before the crucifixion -- he isn't mentioned after Jesus was 12, and doesn't appear at the cross...and the whole thing with Mary and John wouldn't have happened if Mary's husband was still alive...

So the tomb where Joseph was buried is the first tomb.

Then there's the temporary tomb of Joseph of Arimathea...One that's never been used...

So already bodies aren't in the same place...

And either someone is shifting bodies around everytime one of them dies...or they all go to the same one for all...Either way, that's very public. It gets noticed and commented on.

Lots of witnesses, and people with axes to grind (look at the epistles, and the amount of comments of how the Apostles a lot of times had to modify where they went and how they did things, because of the Jews)...And the Romans, who were supposed to be making sure something like this wouldn't happen, I'm sure would also have raised a ruckus.

...Nobody noticed Jesus got married and had a child? And not a whisper or mention?

Hum...seems for someone with a reputation to do everything to fulfill the law -- leaving out a wedding feast, and then a consecration of his son at the temple -- and then sneaking around like He has something to hide -- doesn't add up with a sinless life. (much less the official mourning someone would have done at these burials) -- everybody missed this?Both supporters and detractors?

So how old was His son?Is this a family plot, so to speak?So that means it must have been known of for years.

They didn't die all at the same time did they?We know Joseph most probably didn't.

And if he fathered the child after a 'supposed' death on the cross (good job that would have been, to fool veteran Roman soldiers), can you honestly see Him keeping quiet until old age? Not one single miracle, or parable, or stroll across a lake, for someone to take note of?

His wife and son get shunned by the Apostles?They get no mention?

This whole thing would have been ludicrous enough...but Satan always overplays his hand...and had to put in the offspring part...

I'm sure the tomb is old, the bones are old, and the writing is old.If they're not, this thing will unravel pretty soon.

Someone with a grasp of how conspiracies work, probably after Mary had died, and probably after most of the eye-witnesses (the Apostles) had died, set this up as an "AHA, we found Him...it was all a plot"...But before the tomb could be 'discovered', the Fall of Jerusalem occurred, and the chaos left that little set-up unsprung...

Maybe even a century or so later, a gnostic attempting to bolster one of those fake apostle books they wrote, set it up...probably hoping for a 'revelation' in his lifetime.

A Couple of Things...First:"The resurrection of Christ is central to the Christian faith. Without it, there is no Christianity. Paul says, "if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain" (I Cor:15:14). Paul who was a vigorous persecutor of the church before seeing the risen Christ maintains that Jesus did rise from the dead. In writing to the Corinthian church he says,

[F]or I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He appeared to Cephas [Peter], then to the twelve. After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep [died]; then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; and last of all . . . He appeared to me also. (I Cor 15:3-8)

What he is telling his readers is that many people saw Jesus after the resurrection. He is saying, "if you are skeptical you can go and speak with them yourselves because most of them are still alive!" Paul is so confident of what he and the others saw that he is willing to stake everything on this claim. This was not an event that occurred to a few men in a remote location. It happened in a huge metropolitan city and there were many witnesses to verify it."-http://www.xenos.org/classes/papers/doubt.htm

Second:The Shroud of Turin is not owned by the Catholic Church. Its privately owned and hence why it has been hard to get it for use as evidence for or against Christianity, or the authenticity of the Shroud itself.

I find this topic interesting only because of the possibility that it could be true. However, I fail to see what any type of DNA testing could prove without current knowledge of who Jesus' descendants or relatives are in order to have something to compare the results to. About the only thing that DNA testing is going to prove is whether or not the remains in the crypt are related to each other or not. As for the Shroud Of Turin, that relic has never been authenticated by anything other than pure faith. I can have faith in the Tooth Fairy, but that doesn't necessarily make it a real entity to anyone else.

I think this is most likely a case of sensationalism gone awry. Just look at the source, James Cameron, a movie writer who specializes in science fiction and great FX such as the movies Aliens and Terminator). Cameron is also a not afraid to dabble in ideas that are not his own and wrap them up in new packaging, as he did in 2001 with Planet Of The Apes. He's also wrote movies that deal with social issues that had recently passed through the public eye, as he did with Rambo. But most importantly, Cameron is not new to the idea of writing fictionalized accounts of real life events that are very loosely based on the facts, as he did with Titanic. Of course as a writer and producer of movies there's nothing wrong with this, because it makes great entertainment. Because Cameron is an entertainment writer, I personally have a hard time buying into anything he would portray as fact, without seeing evidence before hand. It's easy to talk about evidence, but where is it? Why announce it before you are supposedly going to reveal it? Just another publicity stunt meant to create buzz? Seems to be working, huh?

Amazing. I've yet to read an intelligent, logical, well-reasoned post here by someone claiming to be a Christian. I guess that's what biblical brainwashing does to you.

Let's review: This can't possibly be the real Jesus because there's no evidence which can link these remains to the biblical jesus we all know and love...therefore, Cameron must be wrong. Sure, that makes some sense...In fact, I agree. We have no evidence that the biblical jesus was even real...well, except for that book.

Okay, let's talk books...what about the Quaran? Muhammad says that Christ was not crucified. Who's right and why?

What about the Gnostic Gospels? Isn't this evidence that Mary Magdalene was Jesus' wife? Who's right and why?

The National Enquirer did a story this week on "Cyclops-man" who, although he has two eyes, was born from cycloptic parents (with one eye each)....well, they even had pictures! That must be true!

Now, ask yourself this question: does the movie E.T. (directed by Steven Spielberg) prove the existence of extra-terrestrials? Does one single piece of source material prove anything???

Logic and reason, be damned! Unless of course, you're trying to disprove the claims of non-believers, I guess...

And, just to set the record straight, the Shroud of Turin was carbon-dated to c.1350 AD by 3 separate sources chosen by the Vatican in 1988. It has NOTHING to do with Jesus.

I'm curious to hear Cameron's evidence, but no evidence will ever change the minds of people who already believe in magic.

For people who believe in such nonsense, there is no such thing as logic or evidence. This is the same deaf, dumb and blind mindset that brought us 9/11.

Christians are yesterday's stupid, gullible, terrified mystics...can we just forget about their hocus-pocus nonsense and get on with reasonable, thoughtful lives, please?

There is a well known saying: there is no god but Allah.We all know that lots of little Jesuses and Marys and Jospehs and Jameses ...even Rachels and Mohammeds and Miriams all were running around the Jerusalem hiss at the time. SOMe of them share a family tomb? No biggie

And there you have it! In the previous 54 postings, people for whom, like Ronald Reagan "facts are stupid things," dismiss any possibility of the find being real.

Not surprising, really. A few years back when a letter in Joseph Smith's own hand betrayed the fraud that is the LDS Church, the Morons, er, Mormons just said "No, it's not" and went right on pedalling their bicycles and their hokum.

In the final anaylysis, from the Roman Church to the Syrian, to the Greek to all the freaky fundies, it is Jesus' death that matters most, not his life. Paul himself even makes that much abundantly clear. It's the death and supposed resurrection that matters, not the amazing miracle of peace and brotherhood that Jesus invented in his lifetime in that incredibly hateful, contentious, brutal, bass-ackward. blood-soaked little corner of the globe.

In Jesus, we find a recognition that dumbass laws about who can and can't eat pork or who can or can't wear mixed fibers, or have sex bear absolutely nothing with regard to a meaningful life.

But that won't matter to the fundies with their literalist interpretations of "scriptures three and four languages removed from any so-called original; neither will it matter to a gang of pedophile priests, for, in the end, they are, as they always have been, a cult of death.

Who really knows? and what difference does it make. Our Almighty my be Jesus or could be some other being or force from some other place and time.Then again there could be a scientific reason for everything in our existance.It seems as like the universe was heading for disaster from the start regardless of who or what created us.Life forms have always been fighting with each other and it appears it's all about greed.I dont think there is any hope for our future and it would of been nice if the Spanish didnt destroy the most of the Mayan records.12/21/12 I think all the bells will toll.

First off, there is no INDEPENDANT evidence that the person the west knows as Jesus ever even lived. All accounts of this person are from, shall we say, those who would stand to benefit handsomely from the creation of the new cult known as Christianity. But I predict that, yet again, all christians are going to go absolutely batsh&* over this. I guess their beliefs and religion are so fragile it can stand up to physical proof?!

There are atleast 25 others in the history before Christ that have the same story as Jesus. It seems evident that the person named Jesus in the bible most probably never existed, or the story of Jesus was at the least modeled after a person that existed well before the person named J. Christ in the bible. It is very probable that the Jesus they may have just found in these bone boxes was put in place of the main character in a story that was handed down through thousands of years prior to the introduction of Christianity. A story that is the product of manipulation through the ages. As strange as it may seem, serious scientific research into the subject suggests we my in fact be the product of genetic tampering by an advanced intelligence originating from another place. Although, i personally believe their motives were more enlightening in the way of advancing our species, rather than coming all the way here through interstellar space to hold us in slavery for the sake of mining gold to shield their planet from destruction.. After all, what competition did they have on planet earth to keep them from simply taking over our beautiful planet? And for all you fundamentalists, just because Jesus may not have existed as the person portrayed in the bible, it doesn't mean you have to accuse a potentially enlightened people as being the new anti-christ, if they in fact did/do exist and have had a hand in our evolution.

God is collective conscience of the society. God is not an external entity, but within each of us. God is that part of our psyche (mind) that prompts us to do "good deeds" that are socially acceptable, and prompts us to keep away from "bad deeds" that are socially unacceptable. Collective conscience evolves from the individual conscience.

Collective conscience can reach out and alleviate sufferings of people in distress that's when God becomes real.

In a *real* free market economy where violence is not used to usurp wealth, the wealth distribution will be well spread out 10% rich people, 80% middle class people, 10% poor people. The majority middle class people will control 80% of the wealth.

Today world is going through a distress period, about 7% of the people on earth control 80% of it's resources/wealth, this is making life miserable for 93% of people in the world. This means that someone is manipulating trade in their own favor to usurp wealth. We are all selling and buying goods and services with currency then what's the problem? The problem is the "fiat currency" system, the currency notes that are issued without redemption obligation. Essentially what this means is currency issuer will buy your goods/services and give you a currency note but then if you give the currency back and want to buy goods/services from currency issuer, they are not obliged to give you anything back. In fact the Federal Reserve Bank does not have anything that has "value" (value means something that will sustain life) in reserve, all they have is some Gold bars, you cannot eat it, nor can you use it to grow food the primary requirement to sustain life, so gold bars are just a token, which again needs redemption to realize "value", one token (paper currency) cannot be backed by another token(gold) isn't it? the whole system is a "BIG SCAM". Oops! this means people who control "fiat currency" racket can easily become rich isn't it? The reality is "YES" and it is happening, that is how 7% of the people control/own 80% of the resources/wealth.

It is time for collective conscience of people (God) to step in and alleviate the suffering of the people in distress. It is time for religious organizations around the world to wake up and fight the "fiat currency" problem by starting their own Banks that will issue *real* currency notes with redemption obligation. Let us make God a reality!

And there you have it! In the previous 54 postings, people for whom, like Ronald Reagan "facts are stupid things," dismiss any possibility of the find being real.

You must not have read very carefully. I think this is pretty obvious, but I suppose I'll give it a shot.

1. This question's been around a long time. I wasn't looking to James Cameron to solve it.

2. This is conveniently being announced during Lent when people have a book to sell and a documentary to promote. Strange how that works.

3. We just had a big kerfluffle with another Ossuary that turned out to be fake after everyone got excited about it.

4. Other than the names, which were common, there really isn't a lot to go on here. If the Bible accounts are even remotely true, then Jesus died early and could well have ended up in some sort of mass grave for criminals.

5. The 'DNA Evidence' seems like a complete non-sequitur. From not being certain if Jesus existed to proving his identity with DNA? What happened in between?

6. This thing has been around for decades, with no one but some fringe archeologist and James Cameron seeming to think it important.

I mean, I dunno. I don't know where the thought process is starting here. I'm not a world-class expert or anything, but I'm really not understanding how someone looked at this and took it at all seriously.

I read a book about this sort of thing (about the James Ossuary) and it involved unbelievably extensive testing and travelling all over the world and authorities in Israel and such. This, on the other hand just seems... sort of silly, at best.

I wonder if any Christians will riot like the Muslims did over the Danish Cartoons. I doubt it since they have been enduring this kind of crap for centuries and have never retaliated in such a venomous way. But the drive by media will salivate over this.

Christianity is evil and Islam is peaceful and good according to Hollywierd.

It really doesn't matter what the 'film makers' and other 'experts' claim here about Jesus. There is no way they can prove it with DNA and "biblical studies". This is just one film among many that has these kind of claims. What about 'the shroud'? They thought that was 'it!! It ends up being nothing.

This film is really for those of you who would believe anything you hear from the media/hollywood and science. I will be willing to bet there are scientists on the other side who beg to differ with these findings, but you won't hear about them.. Just like the misinformation about global warming. ALGORE puts out a film and everyone believes him when there are climatologists on the other side who claim AlGore is wrong.

If you want to base your whole belief system off of t.v. the media and 90 minute shows about a few men who believe stuff like this then that is your choice. You won't have any Christians putting out a Fatwah for your demise. You should be thankful for that.

"Okay, let's talk books...what about the Quaran? Muhammad says that Christ was not crucified. Who's right and why?"

Muhammed was a camel herder born 600 years after the death of Christ. He was illiterate. No one from the time of Jesus, including the Jewish authorities (who would have surely said so), claimed that Jesus wasn't crucified. So, the camel herder is wrong. Hope that answers your question.

What a fine forum. No venom, no anger, just well thought ideas. I'm amazed that with so many different points of view I agree with almost all of them.

I think this is because it appears so obvious that right or wrong, passionate of the truth or just greedy of attention and money, Cameron has come across an idea that for the most part no one cares about. The Faithful will remain faithful, this has been proven in every religion, and the scientists will remain skeptical from lack of hard evidence, and the non-Christians will just nod and say, "Yeah, could be...." and go about their day, concerned with other things.

The only thing I don't appreciate is Cameron's attempt to stir up controversy so unnecessarily over something so sensitive. I feel that his jab at a world faith will make him appear very petty, compared to such a welcomed ideal.

The only interesting thing about this "so-called documentary" is how Cameron and company have "amassed evidence through Biblical studies" that Jesus Christ is in one of the stone caskets. He must be reading one of those Lost (Gnostic) Gospels that were in the Da Vinci Code. He probably hired Ron Howard (Director of the Da Vince Code) as a technical consultant for this.

I believe the church rearranged the bible to the extent the translations are so far from the actual scrolls that the bible is untrue. Compare a current bible from one in the early 1800's and you see a whopping difference. I have read Tony Bushby books and they really blow the Bible to shreds. I would recommend reading these books, it will wake you up.

I had my money on the no historical Jesus theory. But I guess in the end, only a dead Jesus could deal the coup de grâce to this retched, abhorrent religion.

P.S. Fed up with Christianity? Wondering what was the true spirituality that this religion killed? Check out John Lash's book: Not in His Image: Gnostic Vision, Sacred Ecology, and the Future of Belief

The problem with these claims coming from attention junkies is it by passes all other research to the contrary. Any beginner would find in historical writings of Josephus and others proof of a risen Jesus of Nazereth. Another example of why the Bible calls people sheep....mindlessly following whatever is put before them

In some rare cases, there may have been a historical figure whose name was stolen to fuel fanatical fires. In the vast majority of cases, beings were simply conjured out of the ether by power hungry lunatics seeking to profit by exploiting humankind's fear of the unknown.

Oh, there are bones to be found, scrolls to be opened (or burned - thank you Holy Roman Church). . .maybe even the odd relic or two, but these are archaeological curiosities at best. . .frauds at worst.

They all speak to the desperation of humankind to explain the "mysteries" of our existence and to sooth the terror of what lies beyond the grave.

Hollywood is the land of fiction and distortion of any and all truth. Moral decay is their gift to the world. Cameron is nothing more that a black magician with a script and camera. He worships fame at any expense. Bring on the big LA earthquake. “Yeah Baby”.

The Pharisees own fear precluded them from doing what was in their best interests - no guards. They did not believe He would resurrect, so they guarded the tomb to disprove His followers belief and quash them.

Had they not guarded the tomb, theft of the body could have been reasonably claimed. BUT!, they knew He would not resurrect; He was not their messiah.

Nothing certain, of course, but if they answer the following questions you have an interesting idea:

--dna tests could establish the relationships. If they match the biblical ones, that could be interesting.

--The dating of the remains, are they coming up with 2000 years ago?

If both of those things check out skeptics would have a case that this was not only the tomb of Jesus but that he had obviously aquired some wealth at some point. Was this due to the age old career track of cult leader?

Ahhh...religion...ever the fictional creation. Its fitting that a Hollywood director would be one drawn to a sensational tale.I feel bad for people of religious faith...all the years of worshipping something entirely false...mittle wonder if the Jesus himself showed up and announced it was all a farse...they'd still not believe it!

Jews are master forgers and lkiars, they have been caught innumerable times forging alleged ancient Biblical documents and artifacts. If the worlds news media wasn't under the stranglehold of ethnic Jews, this would be common knowledge, and nobody would pay any attention to what Jews say and/or allegedly find.

My suggestion is to always scratch the surface of a story, if its disinformation, you'll soon stumble on Jewish names.

Christians and the rest of us should not expect this evidence "debunk[ing] belief in the Resurrection" to dampen anyone's religious spirits. The religion has trucked along for two millenia without reality ever getting in the way of such a wonderful brainwash.

Such hissing hatred pouring from the fingertips of the obviously non-Christians in this and all blogs related to Christianity, while all the while, those same bloggers point their bony fingers at Christians, calling them hate mongers.

It seems so obvious, if one uses this blog as an example cross-section, what the reaction of the Christian community will be. I see Christians justifying their faith, if in a somewhat thoughtless manner in some posts, and I see Christian haters throwing insults (as usual).

While it is true that some militant-fundamentalist-live-by-the-letter-of-the-law-Pharisaic Christians make a bad name for Chritianity, through contradictory examples set through their own lives, I think I'll hang with the Christians for a while. If nothing else, they seem nicer people all around.

Cameron doesn't care what he proves of disproves. He only cares what his balance is. Most of us do. He just found a profitable angle.

Some of the real dangerous people are in this room.... take for instance 'alan cabal'. What a sick little fu*&er!

IZZY BEE's report of assertions that the graves of Jesus' family have been found fall into the speculation and theory of who Jesus was. It doesn't prove or alter written history at all. It falls into the Da Vinci Code category of pure speculation and twisted so called evidence.

Without validated DNA and no known picture of Jesus, proving any remains to be his or connected to him is totally impossible.

The authorship of the Bible itself is a huge issue. Most of it was written -- what -- several hundred years after year zero?

Sure, we're going to have to go with the "probablies," as follows:

1) A man named Jesus Christ (Or Jesua, or some such close translation) was crucified in 0. 2) This Jesua had followers.3) Jesua was married, and had children. Sarah, the daughter, wound up in France, probably. 4) Carbon dating of the Shroud of Turin may or may not authenticate it or "un-authenticate it." The results were still within the margin of error for carbon dating, so no one can prove anything. 5) Jesua was not resurrected. 6) Jesua may have had some form of ESP or other other-worldly power to make him believe he was the son of God. 7) Or he wasn't.

All things conisdered, it's still shaping up to be a bad day for the unintelligent Bible beaters. Which most of them are -- unintelligent, dogmatic, Bible-beaters.

It is the Word of Christ that is important to me and my family. Not the virgin birth and not the crucifiction. I've long ago stopped caring about the miricles. Christ himself was loath to broadcast the miricles least they distract from the Word. Follow the Word and you are following Christ. And if it turns out that Christ is myth does following the Word become a bad thing? I think not. Sounds like a win / win to me.

Lorin it always good to use primary sources for research instead of relying on author's interpretations. First the quote is not from Pope Leo X but from a playwright named John Bale (1495-1563)who joined the carmelite order but then left the order around 1535. He was a patron of the Court of Henry VIII (Protestant). With the protection of the King he wrote many plays that attacked the Papacy and this quote originates from one of these works which states that Leo uttered this phrase. No vested interests here :)

Let's see here...James Cameron takes liberties with the facts and makes 'Titanic', a movie about people that died, now he is taking liberties with the facts and making another movie about people that died...I smell an Oliver Stone wannabe !But, really, before Jesus, his Mom, etc died, they took DNA and stored them in a lab somewhere and now we are going to compare the DNA samples that were taken then against the DNA of the leftovers in the boxes ?King of the world, indeed !

Where I think some people will run into trouble is in confusing the teachings of Jesus with what the institutions/churches use to rule their followers.

Instead of questioning the legitimacy of their faith the people should question these institutions.

As far as I know Jesus did not establish these institutions and then leave popes, bishops, or what have you as his designated representitives.

In 2000+ years a whole lot of people have created ministries saying that they REALLY know what happened back then or what Jesus said - wars have insued based on the conflicting beliefs.

For even longer carpetbaggers, soothsayers, politicains and buisnessmen of all kinds have done wrong and tried to cover up their deeds - eventually the truth always comes out, people are rattled, but in the end are better off because of it.

Maybe it is the family of Jesus or maybe it is a family who out of love/devotion to him named their members after him/his.

If next year, or even in 2000 years, people find that the tomb of Elvis is indeed empty - will that stop people from enjoying his music?

I do not follow any particular church; but the wisdom of Jesus, and similar teachers, has always inspired me. If these findings can ever be proven to be ligitimate it will not shake my admiration for the man Jesus one bit.

And for those who hold a (any) belief so strongly, where their vision is skewed so far as to not allow them to see anything else but what they believe, this will mean nothing.

P.S. The question by WAFFLE WAITRESS to BONEY M brings to mind something that actually can relate to this: Boney M was a music group back when I was living in Holland in the 70's - they had a big hit with a song called Ma Baker. The groups producer got in trouble later because his performers were lip-syncing to the music- not the real performers. Years later he did the same thing with another singing sensation - Millini Vanilli....the truth, eventully, always comes out.

P.P.S. "PIMS GHOST" are you asking for permission to haunt the place??

P.P.P.S as for the inscription being so "sharp... like "the James ossuary fake" - there aint a whole lot of weathering gonna go on in a sealed cave....

It has to happen eventually. Gods / goddesses are fictions of the mind of the monkey man, and the ancient jews - like all their contemporaries were barbarians we would keep in cages today for our own safety. The whole of christianity is a hoax, as is islam and judiasm.

I got sucked into becoming a Christian like most converts, before taking time to read the small print (Old Testament). I spent the next 27.5 years trying to dig my way out of the mess. But like most such faith-zombies I allowed a huge host of [Well it could have been this way]s explain away all the horrible things in the Bible. Until one day when I did research in one Old Testament law that no Atheist group or book ever used in their myriad arguments. In that scripture I found an old primitive myth that likely dated back to the Ice Age, that completely proved the Old Testament to be a hoax. I spent the next several months pouring over my lexicons, Hebrew texts, Greek Septuagint, everything I could trying to formulate a new "It could have been this way" excuse to patch it up. But the truth is I new I was in check mate the moment I really saw the flaw in the Bible. Its a medical issue well understood today, but totally misunderstood in the Bible. Obviously it was not of God. And it was in the part of the Law that Jesus had claimed the whole Law and prophets hung upon. In 1 hour my 27.5 years of faith fell in. Those I showed the flaw to also ceased their Christian walk in about 1 to 2 hours. With the O.T. dead and gone, Jesus became an instant myth - really he was a take off on Mithra and Ptah.

So why don't I go on a crusade like the atheist-crusaders? Well, I once had a COMMAND from the Christian God to CONVERT the earth. Now I don't have a god like that - and I happen to be quite happy leaving Christians right where they are.

Gee, is it really such a leap that this could be his grave? That it is impossible for a person to come back from the dead and be taken bodily into heaven? Are people really that ignorant? Wait... I guess they are from the evidence here. Be angry all you want. Call it a publicity stunt all you want. Jesus DIED. Period. People do not come back from the dead and God never knocked Mary up, her husband did. Why else would the gospel of Matthew list the geneology of Joseph all the way back to King David? Rather a useless endeavor were they not actually related, don't you think? It's time for people to give up this foolish, counter-productive fantasy. I hope this topples the whole Christian church.

Oh, what a howling there is going to be in Jesusistan over this. They may get so bent out of shape that they forget about stoning gays for a little while. But you can bet they'll still be up for hanging a few Hollywood liberals...

Any beginner would find in historical writings of Josephus and others proof of a risen Jesus of Nazereth.

I call "BS!" There's no such reference to a "risen Jesus" (or a risen anyone else, for that matter) in Josephus. As a matter of fact, the end of the Gospel of Mark is conclusively proven to be an addendum to whatever the original said. Please see Bart Ehrman's "Misquoting Jesus" for further details.

Like I said above, the Fundies will just gainsay facts and keep pedaling their papers.

Sorry..but all this makes me laugh. This news is just a great platform for everyone to exercise their bias, without ever stopping to think about what started the conversation.James Cameron, movie producer, is about to unwind 2,000 years of history. Did he invite top scholars, religious figures, governments, etc.... no he kept it hidden so he could make a movie and sell a book. Sorry if I don't believe, but I don't think if Christ is disproved, it will be from a Hollywood figure. You are suckers to get sucked into this!!

what's with all the anti-religious venom? You know, not all Christians are fundamentalists or ignorant. Not to mention the other very interesting religions out there.

I am skeptical of Cameron's claims for the obvious reasons - what DNA is he comparing? What if it was proven? I don't know how I'd feel, but it wouldn't change a bit how I feel about the teachings in the Bible and the other wisdom traditions.

As for getting rid of religion, most attempts in the past have led to cults of personality around individuals, usually not the nicest people (Stalin, Mao, etc). Sorry, but you're not going to get your wish of the total elimnation of religion.

I don't hate those who have faith in some sort of deity. I am not a rabid atheist who demands that the word "god" be taken off the currency, etc..

In fact, I ENVY those of devout faith. They know exactly why they are here; what they are supposed to do; and where they are going to go after they die. To hold such deep convictions that they can stand tall against the constant attacks of science, history, time and just plain common sense must truly be blissful indeed.

I believe it is similar to the pure joy that a retarded person feels when he wets his pants. A broad smile spreads across his face as the warmth of the urine covers his ticklish places. He doesn't really know where the good feeling came from or even that it will only last a short time. He doesn't care. He lives in the pure toasty joy of the moment.

Wish I could smile like that once in a while. Too bad I know source of the feeling.

what's with all the anti-religious venom? You know, not all Christians are fundamentalists or ignorant.

Granted. And not all Muslims are Al Qaeda. Should that blind us to the reality of the nutcases in each? More importantly, who dominates the discussion today? It certainly isn't the peaceful-religious. The discussion is all in the hands of people like Osama and Chimpy, two birds of the same feather-and their rabid followers are perfectly happy with all the killing and destroying being done in the name of religion.

I don't have any beef with personal faith, but it seems to me that all too often, people congregate in religion not out of a sense of love, but out of a sense of hatred and superiority. It's pretty easy to kill people when you see them as "damned wretches" anyway.

"fact, I ENVY those of devout faith. They know exactly why they are here; what they are supposed to do; and where they are going to go after they die. To hold such deep convictions that they can stand tall against the constant attacks of science, history, time and just plain common sense must truly be blissful indeed.

I believe it is similar to the pure joy that a retarded person feels when he wets his pants."

Shmuck. Try reading some works by intelligent believers (there are some out there) rather than making bigoted generalizations.

"Granted. And not all Muslims are Al Qaeda. Should that blind us to the reality of the nutcases in each? More importantly, who dominates the discussion today?"

Not sure what you're saying. It's not just a matter of "not all Muslims are Al Qaeda," the vast majority of Muslims do not believe in Al Qaeda. But how do you deal with "the reality of the nutcases in each?" Do you trash them and call them names, or do you try to engage with them?

"I don't have any beef with personal faith, but it seems to me that all too often, people congregate in religion not out of a sense of love, but out of a sense of hatred and superiority. It's pretty easy to kill people when you see them as "damned wretches.""

something that could be said of secular political movements like Maoism and Stalinism, not to mention examples of genocide which were based entirely on tribal identity rather than religion. (i.e. Rwanda)

Well James Cameruin is not doing anything about islam or judaism because they will fry his kosher ass and hang it to dry. Christians of the recent past and present are too well mannered to do that to him, so he exploits a silly grandma tale and makes money - simple !

"DNA tests to prove it ... " - dont know what else he is going to pull out of his ass, lets wait and see

Jim, funny how if the OT is a hoax how any historical evidence ever found supports what the Bible says, regarding peoples, places, and times and how every prophecy in the OT concerning the Messiah was fulfilled in the life of one man: Jesus of Nazareth.

So far, believer and unbeliever alike, nobody is impressed; and most, for whatever reason, are skeptical of the claims.

But what it does reveal, are our attitudes about ourselves.

It does seem to split people into two categories (yes, even those who say they have a stake neither way) -- and the root of it consists in belief in an external God or a belief that you are your own god.

You may deny the existence of God altogether, and claim that you are no god yourself -- but in how you live your life, it plays out in what your hierarchies in life are.What you focus on, what you hold as precious, what you sacrifice for, what you spend your time with, IS your god. A god, by any other name, is what you invest of yourself in. You DEVOTE yourself to it. And devotion, by any other name, is worship.

This is not for sneering, or looking down at someone. We all fall into this catagory...no one is a bland automaton that simply reacts at random to daily events.We think, we plan, we judge, we assess -- all things in some sort of order of importance.

Religions and society have determined that selfish self-interest, in the long run, is NOT a good thing...if not the case for an individual, then at least for society.'You are god', or 'I answer only to myself', wears pretty thin -- because you can easily find yourself enslaved to your own passions and desires.But, some don't seem to mind, nor see a problem with that.

So be it.

Some serve an external God, some serve an internal one.

Some serve themselves, some serve others.

All this plays out as whether or not they are positive contributors to life and society.

You can limp along either way in life.

When this life ends, however, the questions (for some) begin.

Sometimes how you look at what happens AFTER life, determines what you do in this life.And this must seem frustrating, if not futile, to those whose focus is totally upon this life alone.

Let alone, among those whose ideas of the afterlife are mutually exclusive.

If DNA science cannot convince a jury of OJ Simpson's peers that he committed murder, why would any of us believe the DNA science behind this. There are two types of people in this world: Those who believe that Jesus Christ died, rose again and lives on the right hand of GOD, and have accepted him into their heart. The others (obvioulsy James Cameron and Simcha Jacobovici) are going to HELL!!!

The ossuary shown in the picture above was laready debunked. The original writing was distinctly different than the cursive type. Plus, the carbon dating of the manufaturing of the box put its construction in the middle ages. Guess Jesus could of given up by then and said, whew...Im done.Then again, finding a box with Jesus name on it was like finding a box in a large US city that said "John, son of James." Just another attempt by Hollywood directors who cant come up with anything imaginative.

I find it totally absurb. Of all the people who have been buried in Israel for the last two thousand years, someone stumbles upon the burial site of Jesus. Get real. And to then state that DNA proves its our Lord. what a joke.

WHAT IF... the fabled 'spear of Jesus' existed.... ( the one that was pierced into the side of Jesus ) and did indeed have artifacts of the blood of Christ on it...

NOW... WHAT IF... Cameron had been able to get a DNA match between that fabled 'Spear of Jesus' and the bones in the tomb ?

That would validate the 'Spear of Jesus' and leave people without any way to dismiss the identity of the persons in the tombs ?

Otherwise how could a match have occured.

I am not so certain about the Shroud of Turin. Personally I don't think there is any true proof as to its relationship to to JC.

I always wondered whatever happened to the spikes that were driven in to JC's hands and feet ? Surely someone would have snatched them up as souveniers back them... I can't imagine those spikes simply being re-used by the Romans in the next poor soul to get pinned to the cross.

If only there had been a e-Bay back then... You can be certain some bright light would have grabbed those spikes, the name plate on the cross and the crown of thorns and been selling them on e-Bay.

If the body of Christ is found in a box, then it will blow holes in the Talmud as well, as it claims that Christ was buried in a dung hill, after being strangled mutltiple times by the Jews and he finally died.

Judism is dedicated to the destruction of Christianity and the belief in Christ. www.noahide.com/xtianity.htm

To them Christianity is 'idolatry' punishable by decapitation or burning. To destroy the religion and exterminate all who follow it has been a long standing objective of Judaism. This is just another attack.

It never ceases to amaze me how jews continue to try and destroy the very person, Jesus Christ who's teachings gave birth to the very principles in which this country was founded on.

Jesus didn't advocate the murder of the natives in order to grab land. The "founders" of this nation did.

Funny too since the white Europeans who arrived here to claim this land as their own, wouldn't have survived were it not for the "savages" they sought to convert to their own "superior" ways.

If Jesus taught that "might makes right" you could argue that the founders of this Nation were only spreading Christian beliefs.

The Souix, Cheyenne, Cherokee, Mohicans could probably swap stories with the Palestinians though.

At any rate, it's not like Yeshua was an uncommon name. I mean hell, archeologists could pick a "tomb" in southern California and have just as accurate a "debunking" of Jesus. Too bad there aren't any white pages that survived the last two thousand years.

I wonder if the Chinese white pages from two thousand years ago had any Wongs in them.....

Anonymous said... "fact, I ENVY those of devout faith. They know exactly why they are here; what they are supposed to do; and where they are going to go after they die. To hold such deep convictions that they can stand tall against the constant attacks of science, history, time and just plain common sense must truly be blissful indeed.

I believe it is similar to the pure joy that a retarded person feels when he wets his pants."

"Shmuck. Try reading some works by intelligent believers (there are some out there) rather than making bigoted generalizations."

2/25/2007 11:49 PM

Just to cleat up the point. I do not question the intelligence of those of faith. I question instead their wisdom and maturity by pointing out the state of blissful ignorance that such people choose to live in. If you wish to spend your life with that urine fueled smile on your face, by all means go right ahead.

The rest of us will view religion for what it is - a farce, and a dangerous one at that. We do not need to pray for some phantom to avenge us for our sufferings. We do not require the comfort of a guardian wraith to keep the boogey man from under our bed. We do not crave assurances of paradise beyond the grave to make up for our low standing in this earthly society.

We know exactly why thunder rumbles across the stormy sky, and it has nothing to do with angels bowling.

Now, if you will excuse me, I must go view some goat entrails to help me decide what color socks to wear today.

OK Mr. James Cameron and all those wonderful archeologists and DNA experts!

It is clear that the zeal with which the apostles and all the countless generations would suffer persecution and death to spread the Gospel is not the master plan of some whose bones lies in a coffin. You may probably say that Jesus wanted all the glory and honor to Himself. But true honor and glory exists only if it was the TRUTH in the first place. So I'm sure that Jesus, or for that matter any man would not fool people around for countless generations. What has those "set of bones" achieved by preaching such divine teachings? The "set of bones" can't get any political glory or financial glory for sure with the propagation of this message.

I'm an engineer and I would like to know as to how have you'll verified the carbon dating techniques or any of those fancy stuff that you'll rely upon. Have you'll even seen the so called "exponential decay" of radioactive carbon for more than 58 years considering the fact that it was discovered in 1949. It's amazing to see the way you'll extrapolate things. From 58 years to 2000 years and even to a million. Please take a course in statistics.

As far as Christianity is concerned, it has seen many heresies and tribulations, yet it's the strongest and the fastest growing religion in the world. That speaks for itself.

I also have an appeal to all the churches around the world. We all are responsible for the sorry state of affairs today. For when the Lord comes back, He will surely question all of you'll and reprimand you'll for the divisions - The Catholics, the Protestants, the Pentecostals, the Orthodox, etc.

well, I guess with current technology, we could clone these bones and bring about the ressurrection ourselves, to self-fulfill the prophecy of the armageddon. The anti-christ is already here, his name's GW Bush.

Oh, come on Mr. Cameron. If Jesus' alleged family tomb was in Jerusalem, and opened and closed at various times to bury his wife and mother and children, don't you think the Scribes and Pharisees would have used these occasions to prove the fraudulent nature of this dead so-called messiah? But they did not, because the Jesus we are talking about isn't in an ossuary but has been raised and transformed in a new creation.

BTW, names and coincidences are funny things. We were going to a birthday party last year of a good friend named Abby Lambert. On the way to the party, we stopped to pick strawberries at a farm and saw two pet goats there named...Abby...and Lambert! What are the chances of that?! Probably less than the chance of a "Joshua/Yeshua/Jesus" being buried with a Mary and a Joseph.

Well, well well. The "script" is written and has churned out a made for book/movie "drama" that makes hollywood drool. Only in hollywood can you take facts that point south, and preach that it points north. Cameron proves again his desire to sell it all for prolonging his 10 minutes. The old adage still holds true for tinsle-town...."Cash is (their) king".

1 Corinthians 15:50I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the perishable.

I am not a Christian, Jew, or Muslim... I am a monotheist, who has studied the Koran, Bible, and other monotheistic writings (especially mysticism). The sayings of Jesus are still profound, the life of Jesus is very compelling, and the Apostles were motivated by something so powerful as to make them go gladly to horrific death for what they believed. A lie? Well Paul never met Jesus as far as we know, but his statement above seems quite clear. Jesus taught Divine Love for God, for your fellow man, and even for your enemies. As far as I am concerned, he was a radical Jewish Rabbi, and the founding of a religion was never his intention, so much as trying to teach Jews that the letter of the Law was not so important as the Spirit of the Law, and that all people could live by the most important law of God--Divine Love. Passive resistence and conversion of Romans to a new form of simplified monotheism seemed Jesus's goal as well, thereby making Romans and Jews one people.

But alas, the Jewish Carpentar started something that overthrew pantheons of gods, nations, kings, and old systems the world over. Some forget that Paganism/Polytheism was STATE RELIGION back then, and just as patriarchal in some respects as Judaism and Christianity.

Anyway, nothing has changed for me. The resurrection was never a physical thing for me, I assumed from an early age that it meant tranfiguration from material form to spiritual form. And if the physical was cast off as an old garment and left behind in a grave somewhere, does that necessarily discount that the new spiritual body (body of light and truth) appeared and was seen among men (touch me not, for I have not yet ascended to my father, said Jesus). Wounds? A spirit can take any form it chooses, and by belief one sees that which unbelief can never behold with the naked eye.

Whether Jews are trying to destroy Christianity, or Scientists hate religion and want nothing more than to kill all religion and create a totally secular world nation, who cares! I doubt most Jews and Scientists wish to kill belief in God. Many scholars and scientists believe in God, as an intelligence behind all the cosmic plan at very least, and the Jewish God is far harder to accept than the Christian one (though I personally like the Tough Love God as much as the soft love God). Far more miracles in Judaic Scripture than in Christian Scripture, on a much more massive scale, afterall. If the Mystic Jesus, who loved God so much, and wanted all people to love each other and God, could not do miracles, than no one could.

1 Corinthians 15:50I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

I am not a Christian, Jew, or Muslim... I am a monotheist, who has studied the Koran, Bible, and other monotheistic writings (especially mysticism). The sayings of Jesus are still profound, the life of Jesus is very compelling, and the Apostles were motivated by something so powerful as to make them go gladly to horrific death for what they believed. A lie? Well Paul never met Jesus as far as we know, but his statement above seems quite clear. Jesus taught Divine Love for God, for your fellow man, and even for your enemies. As far as I am concerned, he was a radical Jewish Rabbi, and the founding of a religion was never his intention, so much as trying to teach Jews that the letter of the Law was not so important as the Spirit of the Law, and that all people could live by the most important law of God--Divine Love. Passive resistence and conversion of Romans to a new form of simplified monotheism seemed Jesus's goal as well, thereby making Romans and Jews one people.

But alas, the Jewish Carpentar started something that overthrew pantheons of gods, nations, kings, and old systems the world over. Some forget that Paganism/Polytheism was STATE RELIGION back then, and just as patriarchal in some respects as Judaism and Christianity.

Anyway, nothing has changed for me. The resurrection was never a physical thing for me, I assumed from an early age that it meant tranfiguration from material form to spiritual form. And if the physical was cast off as an old garment and left behind in a grave somewhere, does that necessarily discount that the new spiritual body (body of light and truth) appeared and was seen among men (touch me not, for I have not yet ascended to my father, said Jesus). Wounds? A spirit can take any form it chooses, and by belief one sees that which unbelief can never behold with the naked eye.

Whether Jews are trying to destroy Christianity, or Scientists hate religion and want nothing more than to kill all religion and create a totally secular world nation, who cares! I doubt most Jews and Scientists wish to kill belief in God. Many scholars and scientists believe in God, as an intelligence behind all the cosmic plan at very least, and the Jewish God is far harder to accept than the Christian one (though I personally like the Tough Love God as much as the soft love God). Far more miracles in Judaic Scripture than in Christian Scripture, on a much more massive scale, afterall. If the Mystic Jesus, who loved God so much, and wanted all people to love each other and God, could not do miracles, than no one could.

By this discovery the dogma of Christianity and the Claim of of Ahmadiyya Community that Jesus was saved the acursed death on the cross and secretly travelled to Kasmir India where he lived and died both have been proved wrong. I wonder what responce would Roman Church and Ahmadiyya leadership would have on this?

Please people, open your eyes. You can't possibly believe every wind that blows, cause that's all this is, is A BUNCH OF hot air! JESUS IS THE CHRIST THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD. He did rise ON THE THRID DAY, AND WOE TO YOU WHO BEIEVE THSES BLAPHEMEOUS lies! Turn from them now and believe in Jesus and be saved.

Why does Discovery keep on hitting on Christ? Is discovery channel having some agenda? This is the 3rd year in a row that they created a programme to attack Christians, but perhaps 3 times lucky. I guess it sells. Wonder why nobody ever did a Mohammad?

Well, this is all very interesting, but not suprising. I don't know what Mr. Cameron plans to prove with DNA testing, it's all just very sad.

Just a few things I want to point out that I saw in a previous post: Paul did account to having seen Christ, i.e. "met" Him on the road to Damascus. Also, I believe it is the 14th chapter of Mark Jesus was speaking to Thoms who doubted that Jesus was really there. He thought he was seeing a spirit or aparition. Jesus said to Thomas "...a spirit has not FLESH and BONE..." He told him to place his hand in the wounds where he was crucified. When Christ was ressurrected He had no more blood, it was all spilled on the cross to atone for the sins of the world. Had he risen with a body pumping blood, then His sacrifice would have been moot.

Chrisitianity is not about beating people over the head with the Bible. Christ came to set the captive free, to show love. The Bible says that God does not want anyone to perish but for all to live an eternal life with Him, you just have to exercise your faith and free will to follow Him or not.

As for the validity of the ossuaries, most Christians, while yes, it might get under their skin a bit, will let it go, because they will see it for what it is - prophecy being fulfilled.

If this, the bible, and the Ressurrection was just one big joke, then why in the world did the disciples and apostles die for what they believed and preached? If it is not the truth, then why has this "religion" continued on through the centuries? The truth always comes out, and I would think that people, being sometimes reasonable and logical would have dismissed this Christ if it wasn't real.

P.S. They - the world will never do anything to dissprove Muhammed, Budha, or any other religious leader, because that would be politically incorrect, because all these religions will bend and conform to what the world wants - Chrisitianity never will because it obeys the Will and WORD of God.

Could you please let us know where you obtained the quote from the archeologist who oversaw the site?

If "Jesus and his relatives were a Galilee family with no ties in Jerusalem" than this person must also believe that Christianity is 'nonsense' since they have, for centuries, worshipped the empty tomb of Christ at the Church of Holy Sepulcer in Jerusalem.

why are all these never ending? Human's nature is rebellious! Read and meditate on the bible before you involve in all these nonsense. Everyone is excited about shit topics like these, but how many of us really read our bible and truly seek GOD?? "Seek and you shall find" If you truly seek Him, you will know, from your heart, He is the only living GOD.

"Shmuck. Try reading some works by intelligent believers (there are some out there) rather than making bigoted generalizations."

2/25/2007 11:49 PM

I guess that several of the preceding entries are examples of what that poster described as "intelligent believers".

As usual, when a religion is challenged, it's followers decide that if they can't be right then they will be loud. I am not surprised at all by the circuitous logic of the faithful. "This book," they cry," is the word of the Almighty GOD!! It must be because it says so right inside the front cover."

What childishness.

All religions are hogwash. There is no old man living in the sky who will give us a magic lolly if we live a "good" life and kill all of those who disagree with us.

The scourge of religion has leveled more promising societies and caused the deaths of more innocents than every disease or natural disaster known to man.

In review - there was no jesus; there was no muhammed; there was no buddha, krishna or xenu.

They are all made up. They are alll imaginary. Your beliefs are built on an ever shifting sandbed of lies. Your time would be better spent chasing fairys with a butterfly net than kneeling in prayer.

Like it says in the new testament: "He did that deny that Jesus is the 'Christ' he is the antichrist".

There is the historical Jesus, the man a human! Born AND died on this earth. And there is the 'Christ' a spiritual entity, son of God.

This entity came upon Jesus. When Jesus died this spiritual being went into heaven. Jesus the man died and was buried on the earth. So the physical Jesus did not went into heaven but the spirit of Jesus that was in the spirit and with the spirit of Christ did!

So going into heaven was not mend as physical but has a spiritual meaning.

What the Roman catholic church later made of it is a lie. A lie that also is followed by other "Christians".

Like Paul says: "one is not redeemed or rescued in and with the flesh but in and with the spirit".

This is the true meaning of Jesus who was and is the Christ and is suppose to be the True meaning of Christianity.

Never the less: It's true what been said about the hatred of Jews towards Christianity and Jesus Christ. That's just who they are: anti Christian anti-white anti-everything that's not Jewish. They invented bigotry. Read The Talmud and you have proof enough.Jesus was killed but Christ lives FOREVER!!! And everyone that belived Jesus and that he was the Christ lives in the Christ and dead will have NO POWER OVER SUCH A HUMAN, because Christ is with him.

Praise the Lord, our Lord. Praise Jesus Christ. Jesus was in the Christ and by believing in Him trough him we are in the Christ and saved. That’s is what he teached and We believe and understand His words.

Whether a the remains of a physical body of Jesus is here or there is irrelevant to the true Christian. We are not saved by the flesh but by the spirit.

So to hell with all haters of Jesus Christ. He is there were you can’t reach Him and We with Him. He waits for us. And you haters won’t be able to get there but burn instead after judgement day.

A few years ago I read a very exciting book called 5 GTC (an authorization code) which revealed the burial of Jesus as a political hoax. Better than the Di Vinci code. I recommend it as an adjunct to this story. Seems everyone has use for these "bones". Truth may again be stranger than fiction.

The Christ is a entity son of God and a spiritual gate. When you believe what Jesus said, that is his words Christ is in and with you and trough the spiritual gate one becomes redeemed and saved and can enter the holy city. Christ will set you free when the Satan will talk bad of you in front of God when you are before him and judged. Satan is the accuser!

All blasphemers will be rejected when trying to enter this holy city (described in the last Bible book "Revelations") which they want because outside this city it will be hell. To them Christ will say when they knock on the door trying to to get in: "I do not know you get away from me, out with you with you; where the evil spirits are, the sinners, the blasphemers, the wizards, the murderers and haters of God".

There is NO WAY but Christ to be saved from Satan.

Only ignorant morons reject Christ. And we all know who were the first ones and still are!

I guess that several of the preceding entries are examples of what that poster described as "intelligent believers".

Not all of them, however I find some of the archaelogical arguments against this finding fairly convincing.As usual, when a religion is challenged, it's followers decide that if they can't be right then they will be loud. I am not surprised at all by the circuitous logic of the faithful. "This book," they cry," is the word of the Almighty GOD!! It must be because it says so right inside the front cover."

Read Aquinas. Read Harold Bloom. Read Teilhard De Chardin. Hell, read the countless non-religious scholars who concede that Jesus was at the very least a real person.

I believe in the teachings of JC because they make sense to me. No, not everything in the Bible makes sense, but how is "do unto others" not make sense?

What childishness.

We're not the one making distasteful analogies to mentally challenged people.

All religions are hogwash. There is no old man living in the sky who will give us a magic lolly if we live a "good" life and kill all of those who disagree with us.

If that was the be all and end all of religion, I would agree with you. But it's not.The scourge of religion has leveled more promising societies and caused the deaths of more innocents than every disease or natural disaster known to man.

I would say language and tribalism (which contribute to religion but are caused by religion) have done more.In review - there was no jesus; there was no muhammed; there was no buddha, krishna or xenu.

Actually, there is quite a lot of evidence that Muhammad actually existed. They are all made up. They are alll imaginary. Your beliefs are built on an ever shifting sandbed of lies. Your time would be better spent chasing fairys with a butterfly net than kneeling in prayer.

The teachings of the Buddha have no predication on the life or even existence of Buddha. For many Buddhists, all that matters that these things were said. It doesn't really matter who says them. Same with Taoism and Lao Tse. My personal wish is that more Christians would separted the message of JC from the life of JC, but that's as maybe.

Look, if it's proven to be 100% authentic then it's got nothing to do with Jews or anyone else trying to bring down Christianity. It's just true and you'll have to get over it and go back to witchcraft or something. Let's face it- after 2000 years it's going to be pretty tough to prove it 100%, so relax.

HAHAHAHA...WE KNOW THAT THE ENEMIESOF JESUS AND OF THE TRUE REAL FAITHCHRISTIANITY ARE WORKING OVER TIMEJESUS IS ALIVE..! HE RESURECTED..!WE BELIEVE..! WE DONT NEED TO PROVEIT TO NOBODY..! AND NOBODY WILL BEABLE TO CHANGE OUR FAITH...HAHAHAHATHIS IS IT...THE "NWO' OF THE ANTI-CHRIST NEEDS TO EROSION MORE ANDMORE THE ONLY TRUE FAITH THAT IS INJ-E-S-U-S....THE END TIME IS CLOSE.

HAHAHAHA...WE KNOW THAT THE ENEMIES OF JESUS AND OF THE TRUE REAL FAITH CHRISTIANITY ARE WORKING OVER TIME JESUS IS ALIVE..! HE RESURECTED..! WE BELIEVE..! WE DONT NEED TO PROVE IT TO NOBODY..! AND NOBODY WILL BE ABLE TO CHANGE OUR FAITH...HAHAHAHA THIS IS IT...THE "NWO' OF THE ANTI- CHRIST NEEDS TO EROSION MORE AND MORE THE ONLY TRUE FAITH THAT IS IN J-E-S-U-S....THE END TIME IS CLOSE. 2/28/2007 12:21 AM

I love when an 'intellectual' picks a posting apart line by line only to be followed up by a urine-soaked 'tard who validates every word I have said.

I will toss it back to you in kind Though you seem to be arguing two separate points.

Anonymous said...

Not all of them, however I find some of the archaelogical arguments against this finding fairly convincing.

Which arguments would those be? The ones against it being the Son of God or the ones alleging a forgery all together? There are plenty of both.

Read Aquinas. Read Harold Bloom. Read Teilhard De Chardin. Hell, read the countless non-religious scholars who concede that Jesus was at the very least a real person.

Caught me there. . .yes, there were many men named Jesua back then. The Jesus in question is the mythological figurehead of the Christian based faiths. He is a fiction. I have met three men named Jesus during my lifetime. None were the miracle worker of which we are speaking.

I believe in the teachings of JC because they make sense to me. No, not everything in the Bible makes sense, but how is "do unto others" not make sense?

"The teachings of JC"?!? What does James Carville have to do with this?

What childishness.

We're not the one making distasteful analogies to mentally challenged people.

It is a most fitting analogy. You are just being too PC to accept it.

If that was the be all and end all of religion, I would agree with you. But it's not.

Vengence, Justice and Reward are at the heart of all religions.

I would say language and tribalism (which contribute to religion but are caused by religion) have done more.

You would of course be wrong. It is belief in a Divine directive that moves men to slaughter each other. If they happen to speak a different language, that only heps identify them as the enemy of one's faith.

Actually, there is quite a lot of evidence that Muhammad actually existed.

I believe his last name was 'Ali'. He was a rather accomplished pugilist in his day.

The teachings of the Buddha have no predication on the life or even existence of Buddha. For many Buddhists, all that matters that these things were said. It doesn't really matter who says them. Same with Taoism and Lao Tse. My personal wish is that more Christians would separted the message of JC from the life of JC, but that's as maybe.

The 'teachings' of these figures have been accepted as divine in nature for generations. To say that it is better to be nice to each other requires no heavenly wisdom, but people don't seem to pay attention to that message unless a deity or prophet is involved. Marketing the message is so important as proven by the "His Holiness" the Dalai Lama's publicist.

p.s. Buddhists chop each other up all the time over tiny matters of doctrine. Doesn't really fit with the message, does it?

jesus was a carpenter that built a lot of houses in the area, spoke his mind , got high a lot , got a group of his workers togehtes , started a movement, and it took off , and other people made money with it, and still are now, example james cameron

They ARE in the bible. . .somewhere in the back, I think. 2nd Testicles chapter four verse 210 - "and, lo, I witnessed a great leathery creature that looked alot like my aunt agnes rise up and roar with triumph over the body of a hairy guy with a club and a hot chick in a fur bikini. . .lo, lo and lo" (they said "lo" alot in the bible)

See, dinosaurs.

Actually, the dinosaurs were all eaten by the Flying Spaghetti Monster just before construction was completed on the Garden of Eden's west wing which encompasethed fine dining and convenient shopping.

EVERYONE WHO HAS POSTED BLASPHEMY ON THIS SITE SHALL BURN FOR ETERNITY IN HELL! JEWS, HINDOOS, MUSLUMS AND THE REST SHALL KNOW THE TRUE ALMIGHTY GOD'S JUDGEMENT AND SHALL BE CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE! DO NOT BE MISLEAD BY THOSE WHO SPEAK WITH THE TONGUE OF SATAN!

Please, Brother Anonymous...don't shout us down by using boldface caps. That counts as blog-asphemy and offends as much as the odd facetious post does. Persuasive arguments are read closely by us all-- Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, Christians, Wiccans, atheists, animists and geeks.

YOU TOO SHALL BURN FOR ETERNITY, SUFI AND DRUID AND ALL THE REST OF YOU SATAN SPAWN! NO MERCY SHALL BE ACCORDED TO YOU NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU SCREAM! YOU HAD YOUR CHANCE TO ACCEPT JESUS AS YOUR TRUE SAVIOUR. YOU TURNED INSTEAD TO THE PRINCE OF DARKNESS. I CONDEMN YOU ALL IN THE NAME OF THE LORD! THE RIGHTEOUS SHALL LAUGH AS YOU FALL INTO DARKNESS AND TORMENT.

Godtimes.com has an excellent article that exposes the Tomb Hoax. It was forseen and prepared for by Jesus Himself. Learn the Secret Security Code that the Messiah created to enable us to spot this type of hoax. Godtimes.com

"We're not the one making distasteful analogies to mentally challenged people.

It is a most fitting analogy. You are just being too PC to accept it.

I still say that it's kind of ironic that someone who claims that others are "childish" delights in calling people "retarded."

If that was the be all and end all of religion, I would agree with you. But it's not.

Vengence, Justice and Reward are at the heart of all religions.

Vengeance? Where is the vengeance in, say, Jainism?

I would say language and tribalism (which contribute to religion but are caused by religion) have done more.

You would of course be wrong. It is belief in a Divine directive that moves men to slaughter each other. If they happen to speak a different language, that only heps identify them as the enemy of one's faith.,

Ah, but if you believe that religions are man-made, then they are created through culture and tribalism, rather than the other way around. Every culture has derogatory terms for the people who live in other lands, regardless of religion. There have been many attempts to eliminate religion as a way of stopping wars, and they have not worked.

Actually, there is quite a lot of evidence that Muhammad actually existed.

I believe his last name was 'Ali'. He was a rather accomplished pugilist in his day.

No, there was also a guy who wrote a book in the 7th century. You can believe it wasn't the word of God, but it's pointless to argue that there "was no Muhammad".

The teachings of the Buddha have no predication on the life or even existence of Buddha. For many Buddhists, all that matters that these things were said. It doesn't really matter who says them. Same with Taoism and Lao Tse. My personal wish is that more Christians would separted the message of JC from the life of JC, but that's as maybe.

The 'teachings' of these figures have been accepted as divine in nature for generations. To say that it is better to be nice to each other requires no heavenly wisdom, but people don't seem to pay attention to that message unless a deity or prophet is involved. Marketing the message is so important as proven by the "His Holiness" the Dalai Lama's publicist.

p.s. Buddhists chop each other up all the time over tiny matters of doctrine. Doesn't really fit with the message, does it?

Example, please. Plus, if we're going to compare body counts, Mao is still the champ, and he was certianly not religious.

I still say that it's kind of ironic that someone who claims that others are "childish" delights in calling people "retarded."

The analogy is applicable in its description of ecstasy founded in ignorance. You fail again to defeat the statement; you just don't like the language.

Vengeance? Where is the vengeance in, say, Jainism?

You don't dig very deep, do you? Jainism while presenting a veneer of pure non-violence also contains a complete set of eight hells awaiting those who have sinned. Punishment/Vengeance is assured to any and all who violate the principles of Jainism. Unlike Christianity, it is possible to be redeemed from one of these demon filled, frozen zones and be reborn, but I would think that would be "cold" comfort to one while being tormented for 33,000 years.

Ah, but if you believe that religions are man-made, then they are created through culture and tribalism, rather than the other way around. Every culture has derogatory terms for the people who live in other lands, regardless of religion. There have been many attempts to eliminate religion as a way of stopping wars, and they have not worked.

And yet religion crosses all national boundaries and cultures, regardless of language. Catholics unite; Muslims unite; Jews unite; etc.. There may be societally based differences, but they see themselves as a "whole" when attacked by outsiders. As an example, Sunni and Shiite may hate each other. . .but they hate Christians more.

You draw an interesting line when you mention a religion free nation. What you fail to recognize is that Nationalism, Socialism, etc., are "religions". The Almighty State has replaced the traditional deity, but the hierarchy of priests and martyrs are just as present.

No, there was also a guy who wrote a book in the 7th century. You can believe it wasn't the word of God, but it's pointless to argue that there "was no Muhammad".

You fail to notice when someone is being facetious. Whether there was or was not a man named Muhammad is not important to the the discussion. As I pointed out previously, we are discussing the existence of the being of myth and fable. As such, Muhammad - Prophet of Allah did not exist.

GED said, "p.s. Buddhists chop each other up all the time over tiny matters of doctrine. Doesn't really fit with the message, does it?"

Example, please. Plus, if we're going to compare body counts, Mao is still the champ, and he was certainly not religious.

I wasn't planning on counting ears, but as you will.

Mao was the deified figurehead of a communist religious movement. He was larger than life. . .much larger than the man whose likeness was plastered on every wall. He became a legendary figure who the fleshly Mao could never live up to.

As another example, I would point you to the reports of a recent hurricane which bore down on Cuba. Stories were printed that Fidel Castro shook his fist at the storm and shouted for it to turn away. The storm was driven off by Castro's power. Is this the Castro that truly exists, or is the real Castro a frail old man who has a fetish for olive drab clothing.

You asked for examples of Buddhist violence. You certainly must pull you head out of the sand once in a while, my friend. I direct you to read an article entitled, "The Shadow of the Dalai Lama."

http://www.iivs.de/~iivs01311/EN/links.htm

You may also wish to do a quick search regarding the violence surrounding the "Black Hat Buddhists," or the fun and games ongoing in Sri Lanka.

I still say that it's kind of ironic that someone who claims that others are "childish" delights in calling people "retarded."

The analogy is applicable in its description of ecstasy founded in ignorance. You fail again to defeat the statement; you just don't like the language.

Sorry, but it's an offensive analogy.Vengeance? Where is the vengeance in, say, Jainism?

You don't dig very deep, do you? Jainism while presenting a veneer of pure non-violence also contains a complete set of eight hells awaiting those who have sinned. Punishment/Vengeance is assured to any and all who violate the principles of Jainism. Unlike Christianity, it is possible to be redeemed from one of these demon filled, frozen zones and be reborn, but I would think that would be "cold" comfort to one while being tormented for 33,000 years.

However, if you don't believe in that hell, so what? Your whole point is about how religious people treat others in this world. The fact remains that in their real-world actions, Jainism is 100% non-violent.

Ah, but if you believe that religions are man-made, then they are created through culture and tribalism, rather than the other way around. Every culture has derogatory terms for the people who live in other lands, regardless of religion. There have been many attempts to eliminate religion as a way of stopping wars, and they have not worked.

And yet religion crosses all national boundaries and cultures, regardless of language. Catholics unite; Muslims unite; Jews unite; etc.. There may be societally based differences, but they see themselves as a "whole" when attacked by outsiders. As an example, Sunni and Shiite may hate each other. . .but they hate Christians more.

Fans of football teams unite, and in some countries they kill each other over it. Communists unite, and sometimes they kill others over it. Religion is just one more factor.

You draw an interesting line when you mention a religion free nation. What you fail to recognize is that Nationalism, Socialism, etc., are "religions". The Almighty State has replaced the traditional deity, but the hierarchy of priests and martyrs are just as present.

Then there is no way out of this mess, and I don't see why you single out supernatural religion. The elimination of the need to believe in something larger than oneself is ingrained in the human psyche, and barring radical brain surgery you're not going to eliminate it. It's better, then, to deal with it compassionately and reasonably. No, not all religionists deal with it thusly, but neither do all atheists.No, there was also a guy who wrote a book in the 7th century. You can believe it wasn't the word of God, but it's pointless to argue that there "was no Muhammad".

You fail to notice when someone is being facetious. Whether there was or was not a man named Muhammad is not important to the the discussion. As I pointed out previously, we are discussing the existence of the being of myth and fable. As such, Muhammad - Prophet of Allah did not exist.

Nonsense. You wrote "there was no Muhammad." Whether or not he was an actual prophet is irrelevant to the fact that he was a historical figure.

GED said, "p.s. Buddhists chop each other up all the time over tiny matters of doctrine. Doesn't really fit with the message, does it?"

Example, please. Plus, if we're going to compare body counts, Mao is still the champ, and he was certainly not religious.

I wasn't planning on counting ears, but as you will.

Mao was the deified figurehead of a communist religious movement. He was larger than life. . .much larger than the man whose likeness was plastered on every wall. He became a legendary figure who the fleshly Mao could never live up to.

However, it was his very real, "rational" policies that led to these deaths. Regardless of his personal cult of personality, it was his (anti-religious) philosophy that led to the deaths.As another example, I would point you to the reports of a recent hurricane which bore down on Cuba. Stories were printed that Fidel Castro shook his fist at the storm and shouted for it to turn away. The storm was driven off by Castro's power. Is this the Castro that truly exists, or is the real Castro a frail old man who has a fetish for olive drab clothing.

This only proves my point, that people seek larger-than-life symbols even in an obstensibly atheist milieu. So why not just let people live with whatever beliefs they want?

You asked for examples of Buddhist violence. You certainly must pull you head out of the sand once in a while, my friend. I direct you to read an article entitled, "The Shadow of the Dalai Lama."

http://www.iivs.de/~iivs01311/EN/links.htm

You may also wish to do a quick search regarding the violence surrounding the "Black Hat Buddhists," or the fun and games ongoing in Sri Lanka.

Nobody's perfect. However, you seem to be ready to dismiss any and all violence with atheist roots as "not real atheism." So how could you say that this is "real" Buddhism?

btw, keep in mind that Tibet is an *occupied* country in a political sense. Remove religion from the equation and you'd still have people being governed by outsiders. Terry Eagleton (hardly a doctrinaire religious person) wrote in his review of the Dawkins book that Dawkins seems to think that the "troubles" in Ireland are entirely religious in nature. Eagleton points out that while religion is involved with the conflict, it remains a political struggle, as do many of the other occupations in the world today. Remove religion from Iraq, and you would still have a country that has been ravaged by colonial powers.

My point is definitely not that religion is perfect. My point is that saying that these very political problems will go away if religion goes away is as hopelessly naive as saying that all would be okay if we were all Christians or Hindu or Muslims or even Buddhists.

However, if you don't believe in that hell, so what? Your whole point is about how religious people treat others in this world. The fact remains that in their real-world actions, Jainism is 100% non-violent.

My goodness. . .do you even read what you write. Yes, it's 100% violence free except for the tormenting of sinners for thousand of years in retribution for their choice to go against the teachings of Jainism.

You have, unsurprisingly, missed my point entirely. I don't give a flying frig how one religious group treats another. They chop and hack each other's limbs off 24/7 for all I care. Humans are animals. It is not unusual that they would behave as such.

Fans of football teams unite, and in some countries they kill each other over it. Communists unite, and sometimes they kill others over it. Religion is just one more factor.

The object of worship may change, but the actions stay the same.

It has just dawned on me that you are suffering from a narrow viewpoint. Let me help you.

A "religion" does not need a metaphysical being as its focus. It only requires an idea. That idea may be a Supreme Being in some cases. In others, it may be a political view or even a sports franchise.

Mao was the head of his religious movement. He did do away with religion. He merely replaced one (or several) religions with a different one - A Religion of the State.

Nonsense. You wrote "there was no Muhammad." Whether or not he was an actual prophet is irrelevant to the fact that he was a historical figure.

You can twist back and forth all you wish. I have clearly explained several times that I am pointing out the falsehood of the mythological figures various religions are based on. I do not care if a man named Muhammad actually existed. I am sure that there were many, many men named Muhammad. Non of them were the chosen prophet of some god-thing named Allah.

However, it was his very real, "rational" policies that led to these deaths. Regardless of his personal cult of personality, it was his (anti-religious) philosophy that led to the deaths.

Mao grew into a mythological figure. To this day, he is worshiped a man-god in China. Offerings are made to his image. Prayers are made in his name. Intersession is asked of his spirit.

Mao may have been a murderous bastard, but he could never live up to mythology that grew around him and became the basis of his religious persona.

GED said - As another example, I would point you to the reports of a recent hurricane which bore down on Cuba. Stories were printed that Fidel Castro shook his fist at the storm and shouted for it to turn away. The storm was driven off by Castro's power. Is this the Castro that truly exists, or is the real Castro a frail old man who has a fetish for olive drab clothing.

This only proves my point, that people seek larger-than-life symbols even in an obstensibly atheist milieu. So why not just let people live with whatever beliefs they want?

Obviously this was my point to begin with. I applaud you for coming to my side on this.

I couldn't stop people from believing whatever the hell they want to believe if I wanted to. I have explained that it is the unquestioning adherence to a religious doctrine that is negative in nature. It would be my hope that individuals would embrace their animal existence. In doing so, they may free themselves of the illusions created by religious belief.

And no, the irony in my beliefs being almost religious in nature are not lost on me. ;-)

Nobody's perfect. However, you seem to be ready to dismiss any and all violence with atheist roots as "not real atheism." So how could you say that this is "real" Buddhism?

This is, of course, a complete misrepresentation of what I have said. As I pointed out prior, Atheism is just as much a religion as Christianity or Buddhism.

You asked for examples of Buddhists attacking each other. Are you suggesting that when Buddhists chop at each other over a black hat that they are not "true" Buddhists? When Christians shoot each other or Muslims blow each other up or Atheists machete each other to death are they acting like true adherents of their particular "religion"?

Like it says in the new testament: "He did that deny that Jesus is the 'Christ' he is the antichrist".

There is the historical Jesus, the man a human! Born AND died on this earth. And there is the 'Christ' a spiritual entity, son of God.

This entity came upon Jesus. When Jesus died this spiritual being went into heaven. Jesus the man died and was buried on the earth. So the physical Jesus did not went into heaven but the spirit of Jesus that was in the spirit and with the spirit of Christ did!

So going into heaven was not mend as physical but has a spiritual meaning.

What the Roman catholic church later made of it is a lie. A lie that also is followed by other "Christians".

Like Paul says: "one is not redeemed or rescued in and with the flesh but in and with the spirit".

This is the true meaning of Jesus who was and is the Christ and is suppose to be the True meaning of Christianity.

Never the less: It's true what been said about the hatred of Jews towards Christianity and Jesus Christ. That's just who they are: anti Christian anti-white anti-everything that's not Jewish. They invented bigotry. Read The Talmud and you have proof enough.Jesus was killed but Christ lives FOREVER!!! And everyone that believed Jesus and that he was the Christ lives in the Christ and dead will have NO POWER OVER SUCH A HUMAN, because Christ is with him.

Praise the Lord, our Lord. Praise Jesus Christ. Jesus was in the Christ and by believing in Him trough him we are in the Christ and saved. That’s is what he teached and We believe and understand His words.

Whether a the remains of a physical body of Jesus is here or there is irrelevant to the true Christian. We are not saved by the flesh but by the spirit.

So to hell with all haters of Jesus Christ. He is there were you can’t reach Him and We with Him. He waits for us. And you haters won’t be able to get there but burn instead after judgement day.

The Christ is a entity son of God and a spiritual gate. When you believe what Jesus said, that is his words Christ is in and with you and trough the spiritual gate one becomes redeemed and saved and can enter the holy city. Christ will set you free when the Satan will talk bad of you in front of God when you are before him and judged. Satan is the accuser!

All blasphemers will be rejected when trying to enter this holy city (described in the last Bible book "Revelations") which they want because outside this city it will be hell. To them Christ will say when they knock on the door trying to get in: "I do not know you get away from me, out with you with you; where the evil spirits are, the sinners, the blasphemers, the wizards, the murderers and haters of God".

There is NO WAY but Christ to be saved from Satan.

Only ignorant morons reject Christ. And we all know who were the first ones and still are!

"My goodness. . .do you even read what you write. Yes, it's 100% violence free except for the tormenting of sinners for thousand of years in retribution for their choice to go against the teachings of Jainism."

However, from a secular, this-world perspective, Jainism has nothing wrong with it. If, indeed, everyone in the world were a Jain, there would be no wars.

"You have, unsurprisingly, missed my point entirely. I don't give a flying frig how one religious group treats another. They chop and hack each other's limbs off 24/7 for all I care. Humans are animals. It is not unusual that they would behave as such."

If you don't care, then why give evidence that they are violent, and why dismiss evidence that they are not?

"Fans of football teams unite, and in some countries they kill each other over it. Communists unite, and sometimes they kill others over it. Religion is just one more factor.

The object of worship may change, but the actions stay the same.

It has just dawned on me that you are suffering from a narrow viewpoint. Let me help you.

A "religion" does not need a metaphysical being as its focus. It only requires an idea. That idea may be a Supreme Being in some cases. In others, it may be a political view or even a sports franchise.

Mao was the head of his religious movement. He did do away with religion. He merely replaced one (or several) religions with a different one - A Religion of the State."

By that definition, not a single human being - including yourself - can be considered non-religious. Even if you have a belief in science or just yourself, you have a religious belief, but that definition. By that definition, there will never be an entirely atheist state.

"Nonsense. You wrote "there was no Muhammad." Whether or not he was an actual prophet is irrelevant to the fact that he was a historical figure.

You can twist back and forth all you wish. I have clearly explained several times that I am pointing out the falsehood of the mythological figures various religions are based on. I do not care if a man named Muhammad actually existed. I am sure that there were many, many men named Muhammad. Non of them were the chosen prophet of some god-thing named Allah."

I'm not twisting anything back and forth. YOU WROTE "there was no Muhammad," which is an exceedingly silly argument.

"However, it was his very real, "rational" policies that led to these deaths. Regardless of his personal cult of personality, it was his (anti-religious) philosophy that led to the deaths.

Mao grew into a mythological figure. To this day, he is worshiped a man-god in China. Offerings are made to his image. Prayers are made in his name. Intersession is asked of his spirit.

Mao may have been a murderous bastard, but he could never live up to mythology that grew around him and became the basis of his religious persona.

GED said - As another example, I would point you to the reports of a recent hurricane which bore down on Cuba. Stories were printed that Fidel Castro shook his fist at the storm and shouted for it to turn away. The storm was driven off by Castro's power. Is this the Castro that truly exists, or is the real Castro a frail old man who has a fetish for olive drab clothing.

This only proves my point, that people seek larger-than-life symbols even in an obstensibly atheist milieu. So why not just let people live with whatever beliefs they want?

Obviously this was my point to begin with. I applaud you for coming to my side on this.

I couldn't stop people from believing whatever the hell they want to believe if I wanted to. I have explained that it is the unquestioning adherence to a religious doctrine that is negative in nature. It would be my hope that individuals would embrace their animal existence. In doing so, they may free themselves of the illusions created by religious belief.

And no, the irony in my beliefs being almost religious in nature are not lost on me. ;-)"

Then spare me the pompous, er, holier-than-thou belief that you have the true, clear insight. I personally have doubts about the nature of god and reality. But they are doubts, not certainties. When you prattle on about your certainties, you sound no different from a devout believer.

"Nobody's perfect. However, you seem to be ready to dismiss any and all violence with atheist roots as "not real atheism." So how could you say that this is "real" Buddhism?

This is, of course, a complete misrepresentation of what I have said. As I pointed out prior, Atheism is just as much a religion as Christianity or Buddhism.

You asked for examples of Buddhists attacking each other. Are you suggesting that when Buddhists chop at each other over a black hat that they are not "true" Buddhists?"

Many Buddhists would argue that they aren't. As I am not a Buddhist, I will reserve comment.

"When Christians shoot each other or Muslims blow each other up or Atheists machete each other to death are they acting like true adherents of their particular "religion"?

Can you not tell when someone is being facetious? You've missed a couple of my comments. I suggest you try not to look at everything so seriously.

If you had read my earlier comments in full, you would have noticed where I stated that I was not blind to the irony that my statements take on a "religious" tone.

I would also suggest that when you reply to another's comments, you italicize their or your words. The posting you just made makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, but it could be considered an improvement on what you normally post.

You seem to question whether or not I recognize that not every adherent of a particular faith behaves like every other adherent. I would think that would be a given, but that fact does not support your argument.

The question of whether Jainism is a vengeance-free religion is answered by the inclusion on numerous hells in which sinners are punished. Whether each and every Jainist on the planet sits on their thumb all day trying not to kill microbes by breathing is irrelevant. The religion has violence built into its belief structure.

I included information on Buddhist on Buddhist violence as an example of modern day activities of those who follow those particular teachings. Buddhism has often appeared to be a peaceful belief system. I suggested otherwise. You demanded examples. I provided same.

Does every Buddhist act in this way? Not to my knowledge.

Does this mean that Buddhism is a non-violent religion? No.

You cannot simply pick and choose from the adherents of a faith and appoint them the special status of True Believers, labeling all others of the faith as False.

It may make you more comfortable to try, but it is not realistic.

If I come off as pompous, so be it. I find Moderates such as yourself to be amusing speed bumps along the path to wisdom. You are so deathly afraid to grab hold of any belief that you spend all your time trying to belong to everything. . .ooh. . .wait. . .just as long as you leave the violence part out and ignore the crimes and atrocities committed by the membership.

Dude, pick a side of the road and get off the dotted line. You're going to get hit by a bus someday.

All Hail the Wisdom of The Grand Exalted Druid and his God. . .HIMSELF.

When thou passeth from this mortal realm, thou shalt come unto me to be judged.

A foolish, moderate comment, freethinker. To say that we should be open to all viewpoints may make you feel good, but it has nothing to do with the reality that surrounds us. It is a place to hide from the truth.

You are a coward, freethinker.

"On the fence" is not a position.

Choose a place to stand and defend it, or get out of the way and let those who have the guts to take a stand handle the hard work.

"Anonymous said... First off, there is no INDEPENDANT evidence that the person the west knows as Jesus ever even lived. All accounts of this person are from, shall we say, those who would stand to benefit handsomely from the creation of the new cult known as Christianity."

Check out Josephus, Jewish historian, in His Antiquities, 18.3. He gives a one paragrph summary of Jesus and the early Christians.

Many syncretistic religions formed gnosticism. Gnosticism was rivaling against Christianity and gnosticism held itself better religion as Christianity was. Word gnosticism comes from Greek word gnosis, which means knowledge. Gnosticism had various effects, for instance, some Gnostics taught that divinity can be achieved through unity of the man and woman. This thought led some Gnostics to reach for divinity through sexual intercourse between the man and woman. There existed also some Gnostics, who abstained from sexual intercourse. When we know the fact that Gnostics held Christians as their enemies and that Gnostics held themselves better as Christians and that Gnostics wanted to show in every way that Gnosticism was better as Christianity, so Gnostics made so called gnostic gospels were they twisted, slandered and misrepresented the real gospels. Gnostics went so far in this misrepresent that they wrote “new gospels” by faking the real gospels. In these faked gospels Gnostics wrote that Jesus Christ was an ordinary man who has a sexual relationship with Mary Magdalene.

Everyone has their favorite way of using the internet. Many of us search to find what we want, click in to a specific website, read what’s available and click out. That’s not necessarily a bad thing because it’s efficient. We learn to tune out things we don’t need and go straight for what’s essential.

Answer a fool according to his folly

Click here for writer Israel Shamir's point by point Answer to a Jewish Chain Letter...one of those annoying screeds that brandish Jewish claims to the Palestinian territories.

otherwise occupied

Israeli Settlements

Homes in Judea and Samaria riddle the West Bank

Atheists on the bus - one way to eliminate Holy Wars. But godlessness is not an option for many people in our part of the world.

Glib Clips

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RULES OF THE GAME

Rule #1: In the Middle East, it is always the Palestinians that attack first, and it's always Israel who defends itself. This is called "retaliation".

Rule #2: The Palestinians are not allowed to kill Israelis. This is called "terrorism".

Rule #3: Israel has the right to kill Palestinian civilians; this is called "self-defense", or "collateral damage".

Rule #4: When Israel kills too many Palestinian civilians, the Western world calls for restraint. This is called the "reaction of the international community".

Rule #5: Palestinians do not have the right to capture Israeli military, not even 1 or 2.

Rule #6: Israel has the right to capture as many Palestinians as they want (over 10,000 to date being held without trial). There is no limit; there is no need for proof of guilt or trial. All that is needed is the magic word: "terrorism".

Rule #7: When you say "Hamas", always be sure to add "supported by Hezbollah, Syria and Iran".

Rule #8: When you say "Israel", never say "supported by the USA, the UK, European countries and even some Arab regimes", for people (God forbid) might believe this is not an equal conflict.

Rule #9: When it comes to Israel, don't mention the words "occupied territories", "UN resolutions", "Geneva conventions". This could distress the audience of Fox, CNN, etc.

Rule #10: Israelis tend to speak better English than Arabs. This is why it is called "balanced journalism".

Kudos for israelity bites

Time Magazine's Middle East blog cites israelity bites as "a personal favorite" , while the London Times and slate.com have linked to our recent scoops. Even got a plug from the Libertarian Popinjay of Las Vegas:)"a Middle Eastern website called 'Israelity Bites'. Brilliant! Comedians could learn from this url." And ironhead posted, "
If Israelitybites the blog says it, then I believe.LOL.The truth is out there..." Sarcastic? You be the judge.

entering Israel

According to Human Rights Watch (HRW), which cited statistics from the Israeli human rights organization Yesh Din, between 2000 and 2008, "Israeli soldiers in the Occupied Palestinian Territories killed more than 2,000 Palestinian civilians not involved in combat. Of 1,246 criminal investigations initiated during the same period into suspected offenses of all kinds by soldiers against Palestinian civilians, only 6 percent (78 cases) resulted in indictments. Only 13 of those indictments charged soldiers with killing civilians. As of September 2008, five soldiers had been convicted for the deaths of four civilians"

Like it?

Gush Shalom

subversive text? click to see

Talking Points

AA./ “I think that we’ve had an invented Palestinian people, who are in fact Arabs, and were historically part of the Arab community. And they had a chance to go many places.” The Palestinian Authority has “an enormous desire to destroy Israel.” --Newt Gingrich

A./ "The UN was born of the ashes of the Holocaust and so was Israel... we have a lot in common." Chris Gunness, UNWRA

B./ “I don’t often spend the night in Jerusalem. I’ll go professionally or to see friends. It is hyperactive. Everyone is expecting something, either the messiah or disaster or both. Tel Aviv is becoming more and more Mediterranean, like the South of France, whereas Jerusalem is moving in the direction of, I don’t know where, maybe like Qum, in Iran.” --author Amos Oz in the New Yorker.

C./ "We’ll make a pastrami sandwich of them. We’ll insert a strip of Jewish settlements in between the Palestinians, and then another strip of Jewish settlements right across the West Bank, so that in 25 years, neither the United Nations, nor the U.S.A, nobody, will be able to tear it apart.” Ariel Sharon to Winston S. Churchill III in 1973.

D./The world will judge the Jewish state by the way it will treat the Arabs." --Chaim Weizmann, father of modern Zionism.

E./"Obama and I don't just share a home state. We also share exotic names that were given to us by our fathers--Barack, which in Swahili means 'blessed,' and Rahm, which, roughly translated from Hebrew, means 'go screw yourself.'"--Rahm Emanuel, WHite House CHief of Staff

G./ "Israel is the country of immigrants and refugees, survivors and displaced people from all over the world. We weren't occupiers, and we didn't want to be occupiers. We were thrown into a historic situation that we have not managed to get out of. We are a torn nation. The occupation is destroying us. We have no right to control another nation. Our leaders and the leaders of the Palestinian people must do everything to get out of this situation." --Eli Amir, Israeli author

H./"It isn't easy to love Israel and it isn't easy to be a friend of Israel. I must personally admit that I love Israel even when I can't stand it. It's no coincidence that during a year when it's tough to love Israel, it's easier to love its literature. Israeli literature delivers the bill to the Israeli people - for the subjugation of the Palestinians, the occupation, the wars, the internal social injustices, book after book, creation after creation." --Amoz Oz, novelist

I./ "My message to the international community is that our silence and complicity, especially on the situation in Gaza, shames us all. It is almost like the behaviour of the military junta in Burma ."--Desmond Tutu, Nobel Laureate

J./ Sticker on a tour bus in Jerusalem filled with American Jews: "No one belongs here more than you!"

K./ "My pet peeve is nuclear war."-- Dick Cavett

L./ “People say to me, "What about Gaza? Don't have so much compassion for them, don't tell the Israelis to be nice there, tell [the Palestinians] to be nice there. And I say Gaza is a nightmare, and it's a stain on my conscience. And I'm very troubled by the attitude of Israelis against Israeli Arabs. It's a shame. It's a black hole in my democracy.”--Avram Burg

M./"My grandmother was ill in bed when the Naziscame to her home town of Staszow. A German soldier shot her dead in her bed. My grandmother did not die to provide cover for Israeli soldiers murdering Palestinian grandmothers."-- Sir Gerald Kaufman, British MP and Orthodox Jew.

N./ Hamas is regularly described as 'Iranian-backed Hamas, which is dedicated to the destruction of Israel. One will be hard put to find something like 'democratically elected Hamas, which has long been calling for a two-state settlement in accord with the international consensus' -- blocked for over 30 years by the US and Israel, which flatly and explicitly reject the right of Palestinians to self-determination. All true, but not a useful contribution to the Party Line, hence dispensable.--Noam Chomsky

O./ He shall judge between many peoples, and shall arbitrate between strong nations far away; they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. Micah 4:3

P./ Purple, The Color.Author Alice Walker, from Gaza with Code Pink, says:"It's very important that they understand what is happening, and that we hold our own administration accountable.I feel that what is happening in the Middle East is very important because the situation is so volatile. "I love people, and I love children and I feel that the Palestinian child is just as precious as the African-American child, as the Jewish child."

Q./"There are of course Jews who are non-Zionists and even anti-Zionists. The ultra-Orthodox cult of Neturei Karta and the leftist cult of Noam Chomsky are notable examples. The former rejects any earthly attempt to interfere with God's messianic plan, while the latter abhors all forms of nationalism, especially successful ones." --Judea Pearl

R./ "There are two sides in the Middle East conflict: Jews and Arabs who want compromise, and Jews and Arabs who want to demonize and eradicate their neighbors." --Rob Eshman, the editor of LA's the Jewish Journal

S./ "There hasn't been a single Israeli government that has curbed illegal colonization of the West Bank. I have a hard time believing the "center" of Israeli politics is anything other than a black hole -- an event horizon beyond which no light can ever shine outward. All it does is keep sucking more into it and crushing it." --chaos 4700 on HuffPo

U./ "The Middle East is the worst place in which to set loose a military force even partly informed by Christian Zionism, seeing the state of Israel as God's instrument for ushering in the Messianic Age - damning Muslims, while defending Jews for the sake of their eventual destruction...Unbound Christian zealotry is inimical to the prudent use of force...made blind by faith." --James Carroll

V./ Palestinians shoot themselves in the foot and then Israel shoots them in the other foot because they fired first.-- Avi, a blogger

W./ "This was not a love boat, this was a boat of hate," Bibi Netanyahu said of the Turkish ferry, Mavi Marmara, raided by Israeli commandos.

X./ "The number of murders per capita is a third of that of the United States. Israel’s population has passed 7.5 million, more than nine times what it was at its birth in 1948, and is growing at 1.8 percent a year, a rate no other developed country approaches." --Ethan Bronner, NY Times

Y./ Israeli Defence Minister Ehud Barak to commandos involved in the flotilla raid when he visited them at their base in Atlit: "We live in the Middle East, in a place where there is no mercy for the weak and there aren't second chances for those who don't defend themselves."

Z./"Israel goes to sleep with memories of the Holocaust and wakes up to the Arab-Israeli conflict." Maxim

AA./ "In 1974 US foreign aid amounted to about 25 percent of Israeli gross domestic product (GDP). The aid has continued at roughly the same level, but given the massive growth of the Israeli economy, it now amounts to about 2.5 percent of Israeli GDP." George Friedman, Stratfor. That's alot of shekels!

BB./ "Why doesn't Netanyahu get it over with?Remove the Star of David and blue bars from the Israeli flag and hoist up the Jolly Roger. Piracy pays." - Stanley Heller

CC./ "Apparently, the line you take on Israel trumps everything else in life.” Tony Judt

DD./ "Most Israelis were not transplanted latter-day agrarian socialists but young, prejudiced urban Jews who differed from their European or American counterparts chiefly in their macho, swaggering self-confidence, and access to weapons." --Tony Judt

EE./ "The Israeli policy of amimut, or opacity, prohibits acknowledging the existence of the country’s nuclear arsenal, which consists of more than 100 weapons, mainly two-stage thermonuclear devices, capable of being delivered by missile, fighter-bomber, or submarine (two of which are said by intelligence sources to be currently positioned in the Persian Gulf)." --Jeffrey Goldberg

FF./"Why should a bourgeois country be the world’s foremost recipient of foreign aid, with $3 billion a year from the United States? Why [does] Israel keep schnorring money from Diaspora Jews, and why [do] Diaspora Jews keep handing it over?”--Larry Derfner

GG./ "Many students of Jewish descent, myself included, conclude after majoring in Middle Eastern studies that Israel's post-1967 conduct and its attempt to paint its own colonialist ambitions as a universal Jewish concern constitute an affront to Jewish values and a chillul Hashem." --Evan Sholle

HH./ "We operate everywhere where we can hit terror infrastructure - in close places and in places further away." --Ehud Olmert

II./ "Israeli religious extremists demand American protection and then denounce the U.S. for 'interference' if we demur politely about colonization of the West Bank. " Christopher Hitchens