Book ChatFor Cause & For CountryA Study of the Affair at Spring Hill and
the Battle of Franklin
By
Eric A. Jacobson and Richard A. Rupp

This chat took place in the Civil
War Home Chatroom on 02/11/07 and covered Chapter 3. This discussion was
participated in by "Eric A. Jacobson", one of the authors of the book.

2/11/2007 8:02 pm (et) Basecat:
Welcome to the 3rd installment of the Sunday Night book chat featuring Eric A. Jacobson and Richard A. Rupps book For Cause and For Country: A Study of the Affair at Spring Hill and the Battle of Franklin. Tonight's discussion will be focused on Chapter 3. The Roads To Spring Hill.

2/11/2007 8:03 pm (et) Basecat:
Reminder to all, Please refrain from using the Private Message mode during the chat. Thanks.

2/11/2007 8:06 pm (et) Basecat:
I thought I would start with an observation that I gleamed from the chapter. After reading this, I have to wonder just what Hood could see of the action as it took place. I know he could hear it, but as mentioned in the book just how far behind was he?

2/11/2007 8:07 pm (et) REL:
Wasn't Hood on the south side of the river at that time?

2/11/2007 8:07 pm (et) Widow:
When he wrote Advance and Retreat, he saw all the action. In his mind's eye, maybe, but not for real.

2/11/2007 8:07 pm (et) mobile_96:
Plus the terrain Base.

2/11/2007 8:07 pm (et) ks:
I know I run the risk of looking pretty ignorant in this crowd by admitting this, but I've had trouble keeping track of who is who in the first chapters. By that I mean, for me it's not familiar names of commanders (aside from Hood and Cleburne). When there's mention of so and so moving their division or corps, I have to check and double check to be certain I know if it's Federal or CSA.

2/11/2007 8:08 pm (et) mobile_96:
Though he had already crossed the river and was starting north.

2/11/2007 8:08 pm (et) Basecat:
REL...He was still near Columbia IIRC....and yet he stated that he could see what was happening.

2/11/2007 8:08 pm (et) Widow:
I agree. Cheatham, Chalmers, Cleburne. Lots of Wilsons and Browns, thank goodness for the index and OOBs at the end.

2/11/2007 8:09 pm (et) Babs:
KS, Me too.

2/11/2007 8:09 pm (et) Vickie:
I have had trouble keeping track of who's who also ks.

2/11/2007 8:09 pm (et) mobile_96:
I've had trouble following the movements, since half the towns mentioned are not on the map.

2/11/2007 8:09 pm (et) Vickie:
Like you say, not familiar names to me.

2/11/2007 8:10 pm (et) amhistoryguy:
Nice to hear I'm not alone.

2/11/2007 8:10 pm (et) Widow:
Footnote 48 on page 106 spells out clearly that Hood couldn't have seen what he claimed, there was an intervening rise in the ground.

2/11/2007 8:11 pm (et) ks:
mobile, I mentioned that a couple of weeks ago. I refer to the maps frequently, but don't always find the name of the place I'm seeking. Did pull out that HUGE OR atlas today and tried to place things. Can't say I faired much better.

2/11/2007 8:11 pm (et) mobile_96:
Base, thought he was 'thinking he saw what was happening' after he reached the Rally Hill Pike.

2/11/2007 8:12 pm (et) mobile_96:
Only map close is 149, and that doesn't cover all of them either

2/11/2007 8:13 pm (et) mobile_96:
And I have a question on the map on page 85 of Eric's book.

2/11/2007 8:13 pm (et) Basecat:
REL it stems from a conversation he had with Cheatham as the action took place. He tells Cheatham to attack the Union soldiers he could see, but years later Cheatham said that conversation never happened between them.

2/11/2007 8:13 pm (et) Widow:
'Tain't fair to discuss a place but not show it on the map. I like to KNOW what's where, even if the generals didn't.

2/11/2007 8:13 pm (et) EricJacobson:
Okay I'm ready

2/11/2007 8:13 pm (et) mobile_96:
Right Base, but that was on the Rally Hill Pike.

2/11/2007 8:17 pm (et) ks:
I guess I'd like to ask you, Eric, how do you keep yourself oriented to the troop movements? Yes, I presume you have great familiarity with years of study. But was there some map (or were there maps) in particular that YOU used during your study??

2/11/2007 8:17 pm (et) Basecat:
I guess the point I am making is that he was a little too far back to get a correct idea as to what was going on...Especially at this critical phase of his plans.

2/11/2007 8:18 pm (et) REL:
That's what I thought. Especially to see north of Columbia where Spring Hill is located.

2/11/2007 8:18 pm (et) EricJacobson:
Maps related to Spring Hill are practically non-existent. I had to piece everything together using various accounts.

2/11/2007 8:18 pm (et) mobile_96:
Eric, map, page 85, I'm a bit confused, something not unusual. Hood has crossed Duck River and is on Davis Ford Road, did he cut north, just past Bear Creek-cross over Rutherford Hill and then vear to the Right until he hit Rally Hill Pike, or travel north east after Bear Creek, cross the Shelbyville road and move to Rally Hill Pike and then head west?

2/11/2007 8:23 pm (et) Widow:
Basecat and ks, are we doing the ? to ask permission to pose a question?

2/11/2007 8:23 pm (et) Basecat:
Widow, not tonight...just ask away as it works better as a discussion and a lot less formal.

2/11/2007 8:24 pm (et) EricJacobson:
When Hood talked about being able to see Columbia Pike from Rutherford Creek, many believe he was referring to the point where the Rebel army crossed Rutherford Creek. Frankly, the way Hood wrote his memoirs that is exactly what the reader would think. But myself and the county archivist in Columbia, TN have always wondered if Hood actually was referring to the seeing the pike from the crest of Rutherford Hill, well before crossing the creek. With no leaves on the trees you can actually see the pike from that hill.

2/11/2007 8:25 pm (et) Basecat:
Eric, the other thing I noticed in terms of the Confederate movements. Lack of artilleryas I gather all of it was with Lee south of the River?

2/11/2007 8:27 pm (et) EricJacobson:
At least two batteries moved with the infantry, perhaps as many as three

2/11/2007 8:27 pm (et) EricJacobson:
The rest remained in Columbia

2/11/2007 8:27 pm (et) mobile_96:
Would he have seen Union movement if he was viewing the Pike from the hill crest?

2/11/2007 8:28 pm (et) amhistoryguy:
When CSA Bell's cavalry reformed near the Rally Hill Pike, you mentioned that they only had about 4 rounds per man, and that ordnance wagons were still at Columbia. You said, "Bell's men would be forced to improvise." How did they improvise lack of ammunition?

2/11/2007 8:28 pm (et) EricJacobson:
I think it is possible he may actually spotted some of Wagner's men as they were moving north. Early in the day, when Wagner's men were between Columbia and Spring Hill and Hood was still further south, that is a real possibility

2/11/2007 8:29 pm (et) Widow:
Thx. Eric, a question about the cavalry regiments. On p. 92 you mention Hoefling's 12th Tennessee Cavalry in Schofield's command; then in the footnote 23, p. 92, the 10th Tennessee Cavalry, in Forrest's outfit. Can you explain that to me, Union cavalrymen from Tennessee?

2/11/2007 8:29 pm (et) EricJacobson:
AMHG - according to one source they were told to yell. No kidding.

2/11/2007 8:30 pm (et) ks:
Yell?? As in skeer the bejeebers out of the Yanks??

2/11/2007 8:36 pm (et) Widow:
A few Rebel yells, and your side's all warmed up but the enemy is frozen. Works for me.

2/11/2007 8:36 pm (et) EricJacobson:
AMHG - can't tell you how long it would have taken to bring up extra ammo. But daylight was fast running out, and both Forrest and Cleburne voiced no opposition to moving forward.

2/11/2007 8:41 pm (et) ks:
I'm not trying to just nail Eric with questions, anyone who's been in the area, please speak up here. I have no idea of how identifiable the terrain is in this day and age. If traveling in the area, what remains of these creeks, hills, pikes? Can one stand and make sense of it? With a capable guide, I know it'll help tremendously. Trying to get the mental picture.

2/11/2007 8:41 pm (et) ks:
Forgot the smile in my last. Was typed with a :)

2/11/2007 8:43 pm (et) EricJacobson:
KS - as of today much of it remains the same. Still very easy to identify. But sadly I will all of it change in my lifetime.

2/11/2007 8:44 pm (et) mobile_96:
At least we'll have a chance to see some of it before it does change.

2/11/2007 8:44 pm (et) EricJacobson:
Indeed

2/11/2007 8:45 pm (et) Basecat:
Have been out that way one time, and that was at the first Muster, and do remember driving a lot of two lane roads and the terrain was quite hilly. Then again I was not really paying attention to the ground as I was concentrating on reading the road signs.

2/11/2007 8:46 pm (et) Widow:
Let's see. Schofield worried about being flanked until it was almost too late to reposition his men. Hood misread Schofield's positions. It's a wonder they ever found each other at all.

2/11/2007 8:46 pm (et) Basecat:
ks.:) That was a problem I had when out there. Signs were like postage stamps if there were any.

2/11/2007 8:46 pm (et) REL:
But I am not familiar with all the side roads--the over all area.

2/11/2007 8:46 pm (et) amhistoryguy:
Were there any newspaper men with Schofield? Many or any reports in newspapers that you drew from?

2/11/2007 8:50 pm (et) Basecat:
Just how far is Columbia from Spring Hill?

2/11/2007 8:50 pm (et) ks:
This isn't a question, just a comment about the section read for tonight. Very much enjoyed reading about Benjamin F. Cheatham. So often AoT (former chatroom member...for those who might not know) waxed on about Cheatham. Wasn't his old hound dog, Frank, named in his honor? I'd like to read more on Cheatham. Any titles to suggest??

2/11/2007 8:50 pm (et) Widow:
Eric, I especially liked the picture you sketched of the Union cavalry fighting east of Spring Hill, with their Spencer repeaters and revolving Colt rifles. Impressive firepower.

2/11/2007 8:50 pm (et) ks:
As long as we can decipher the meaning, typos matter not here, Eric.

2/11/2007 8:50 pm (et) REL:
Picture a road running North to South. On that road is Columbia--north of Columbia about 3-6 miles, along that road, is Spring Hill. The Confederates came in from the South caught the Yankees around Columbia. Hood was sent out to the east to swing around on the right and cut off the Yankees heading up the road due north. He caught them but had no ammunition. They continue, during the night to go due north up that road.

2/11/2007 8:51 pm (et) mobile_96:
About how many men did Schofield still have at Columbia before he started heading north?

2/11/2007 8:51 pm (et) EricJacobson:
KS - Losson's book about Cheatham and his division. It is listed in my bibliography.

2/11/2007 8:51 pm (et) EricJacobson:
Thanks Widow.

2/11/2007 8:52 pm (et) EricJacobson:
REL - the 3-6 miles relates to today. In 1864 Columbia was entirely south of the Duck River and Spring Hill was, well, practically nothing.

2/11/2007 8:53 pm (et) REL:
Right...that would be today--might have been twice that then....

2/11/2007 8:53 pm (et) EricJacobson:
From the Cheairs house (today the Tennessee Children's home) to the Duck River is about 13 miles

2/11/2007 8:53 pm (et) ks:
Thanks, I'll do some googling and see how readily available would be a copy of Tennessee's Forgotten Warriors: Frank Cheatham and His Confederate Division by Christopher Losson.

2/11/2007 8:59 pm (et) Basecat:
Eric, which is a good point, as I have often found it hard to believe if they were as close as some say that they could just slip buy as they did.

2/11/2007 9:00 pm (et) EricJacobson:
And so much happens between Nov 21 and Nov 30

2/11/2007 9:00 pm (et) EricJacobson:
Basecat - I think in most places they were 300 - 400 yards from one another. Close, but not close enough to light pipes, etc.

2/11/2007 9:00 pm (et) EricJacobson:
HOWEVER.....

2/11/2007 9:00 pm (et) Widow:
AHG, did Jones give you the impression that Richmond was worried about Hood's silence?

2/11/2007 9:00 pm (et) amhistoryguy:
Not until just before Christmas that rumors of Hoods terrific losses came in. Big concern about many men refusing to stay with Hood, and instead, just returning to their homes.

2/11/2007 9:01 pm (et) ole:
Given the country, would there have been any telegraph available after he left Florence?

2/11/2007 9:01 pm (et) EricJacobson:
Early in the evening, before the final Rebel lines were in place, Dick English of Granbury's staff wandered onto the pike and got swept up by Yankee flankers.

2/11/2007 9:01 pm (et) Basecat:
Just a thought on Richmond during this time, as to me they were more concerned with what Sherman was doing in Georgia.

2/11/2007 9:01 pm (et) amhistoryguy:
Not worried, but completely in the dark as to what was going on. First reports actually had Hood winning a big victory.

2/11/2007 9:01 pm (et) EricJacobson:
Ole - not that I know of. Remember, Hood was never in the actual town of Columbia so until Franklin there was no telegraph service

2/11/2007 9:03 pm (et) amhistoryguy:
I would have thought that if Hood was supposed to be the last hope of the Confederacy, there would have been some concern about what was going on. Although as you mention, Basecat, Sherman was a more pressing concern.

2/11/2007 9:05 pm (et) Basecat:
To me at this time, Lee was the last hope of the Confederacy, at least that is how Davis usually acted. IIRC, Governor Brown of GA was particularly a nuisance telegraph wise while Sherman was marching to the sea, but that's a story for another time.

2/11/2007 9:05 pm (et) REL:
I think that there was telegraph service between Franklin and Nashvile in 1863.

2/11/2007 9:06 pm (et) EricJacobson:
There was definitely service between Franklin & Nashville in late 1864

2/11/2007 9:11 pm (et) REL:
What would have happened if Hood had captured that Union force?

2/11/2007 9:11 pm (et) EricJacobson:
Hood's luck wasn't nearly as bad the Army of Tennessee. The never had any good luck.

2/11/2007 9:11 pm (et) Babs:
Not to mention his missing body bits.

2/11/2007 9:12 pm (et) EricJacobson:
REL - I don't think Schofield would just have surrendered. But there might have been a helluva fight at Spring Hill on November 30. One thing for certain, there would have been no Battle of Franklin, at least the way it turned out.

2/11/2007 9:13 pm (et) mobile_96:
REL, good question, would have tied up quite a bit of Hoods forces for a while guarding.

2/11/2007 9:13 pm (et) REL:
However, that still did not mean that Hood could have taken Nashville? Right? He would have had to head north to Ky.?? What do you think?

2/11/2007 9:14 pm (et) EricJacobson:
REL - Nashville would still have been a very tough nut to crack. It is the ultimate what if.

2/11/2007 9:14 pm (et) amhistoryguy:
On Dec. 27, Jones writes " I saw today a letter from Gen. Beauregard to Gen. Cooper, wherein it was indicated that Gen. Hood's plan of penetrating Tennessee was adopted before Beauregard was ordered to that section."

2/11/2007 9:15 pm (et) EricJacobson:
Union authorities (Grant, etc.) were nearly out of their skulls after Franklin. Imagine if Hood had done serious damage to Schofield's army. Who knows what might have happened.

2/11/2007 9:15 pm (et) jimtno:
Its always been my impression that the chances of Hood taking Nashville and Franklin were some where between slim and none.. And slim just left the building.

2/11/2007 9:16 pm (et) EricJacobson:
AMHG - interesting point. Davis even tried to distance himself from the Tennessee Campaign, but contemporary evidence indicates he knew exactly what Hood was up to.

2/11/2007 9:19 pm (et) Basecat:
Folks...we are getting ahead to Franklin. Let's save that part of the discussion until we have read that part of the book. Thanks. :) BTW, Homework for next week will be Chapter 4.

2/11/2007 9:19 pm (et) Widow:
OK, I take it that with Schofield wiped out, Thomas would have had a much harder time holding Nashville against Hood. As you say, the big what-if.

2/11/2007 9:19 pm (et) EricJacobson:
AMHG - Davis gave several speeches after his visit to Palmetto, GA at the end of Sept 1864 which clearly indicated Hood was planning to invade Middle Tennessee. Interestingly, this is Sherman first heard about the plan, bu reading the papers. Guessing what Hood might do, he readied his move east and prepared to send Thomas back to Middle Tennessee to defend it.

2/11/2007 9:19 pm (et) jimtno:
In the final book of Cattons triology, Scofield went about his preparations to "recieve Hood and the AoT with deliberation and thoroughness.

2/11/2007 9:20 pm (et) ks:
This is an interesting discussion, and certainly discussion can continue. But we try to have definite points of reference in the book chat so that shotgun knows what to archive with a particular chapter. That's one good reason to post the homework and say that's officially it for tonight. ;)