3.If we are a descendent of the monkeys why monkeys are always present on the earth ?Because we are not a descendent from monkeys of our decade because you must to know that monkeys and humans are from a same species who are not on earth now.

This also ties into the existence of, for lack of a better term, 'living fossils,' such as the coelacanth.

Did the advent of the U.S. cause England to not exist? Do one's grandparents not exist, since their offspring are living?

I personally prefer the morality brand creationist arguments. If evolution is true then all notion of justice, cooperation, and order is a lie because survival of the fittest is the sole law of the land. Therefore, if you are an evolutionist and aren't sailing off into wanton murder sprees you're a hypocrite.

My favorite aspect of such lines of non-reasoning aside from being blatantly non-sequitur is the lack of awareness as to how easy it is to frame anything in such a way. After all, you know who else believed in gravity? HITLER!

Once they claim that evolution is not science, but a 'faith' in its self. So most of my discussions start by teaching them the basics of science. The definitions of theory, hypothesis, scientific methods, peer-review, and such. If they dont have understanding of these concepts, their faith is not the only thing getting in the way of accepting Theory of Evolution. I never assume what one does know, sometimes it surprises us when we learn something we didnt know. Them surprises is what opens the minds a little more.

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This planet and universe puts me in awe everyday. Its not that I want to live forever, just long enough to learn everything =) ~This is me

So most of my discussions start by teaching them the basics of science.

that is 95% of any discussion with any creationist. The problem is, in my experience, they disregard everything you say.

Exactly, if they still dont accept what you are saying, then is it possible the root problem is they cant admit they were wrong? Can you take just one of their simple misconceptions, and prove to them that they are undeniably wrong? If they still refute that, then you have your root cause for not accepting. There will be nothing you can say, until they are truthful to themselves that "yes, I can be wrong"

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This planet and universe puts me in awe everyday. Its not that I want to live forever, just long enough to learn everything =) ~This is me

That is hard for them to do. In a lot of cases they base their whole belief system on some stupid misconception like that. Admitting error is equivalent to losing everything. I have tried in the past to point out that you can still believe in god, just not for this reason. I do not recall ever being successful.

You are so right!! Based from my personal experience, you couldnt tell me I was wrong about anything. It took me to be undeniably proven wrong, to admit I could be wrong. That 'ah ha' moment for me was learning that Christopher Columbus was not the first person to step on American ground. I always thought he discovered it, so he was the first to step foot.

Once you are able to admit that you were wrong, then maybe you can sort through the misconceptions of evolution. Once they are willing to gain understanding of evolution, they can see for themselves it does not take the idea of a god away...but they can, as many do ...conform the bible to match the story our Earth tells.

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This planet and universe puts me in awe everyday. Its not that I want to live forever, just long enough to learn everything =) ~This is me

^^^^A side note-- Even if the US had been uninhabited, he could not have "discovered" it. It would be more accurate to say that Columbus arrived in some long-inhabited lands later called the Americas, and began, arguably, the most destructive series of changes a world region has ever experienced.[1]

Columbus never "set foot" on any part of what is now the United States. He landed in the Caribbean and hung out there and in Latin America a bit. USA, not so much. This is usually a surprise to my US students as well.

So most of my discussions start by teaching them the basics of science.

that is 95% of any discussion with any creationist. The problem is, in my experience, they disregard everything you say.

This is correct. A day I tried to challenged some Muslims.This is only an approximative reconstitution of an event of my life. (The names were changed).I explained what is the evolution theory.Djamel :Sharif , tu est d'accord avec moi ? Adam était le premier homme. C'est dans le coran. Il a étais fait avec de la poussière [He maybe used the word "argile" who means clay].Trans : Sharif , you're OK with me ? Adam was the first man. This is in the Quran. He was made with dust.Sharif :Oui , je suis d'accord avec toi. Trans : Yes , I'm OK with you.Therefore I explained that the first form of life was a bacteria.After Sharif asked to me if there are the bacterias who made the earth with an ironical and nervous ton.I answered that he doesn't know make the difference between "evolution theory , abiogenesis and cosmology".He answered by "alors ....." (so then .....).End of the discussion.

Columbus never "set foot" on any part of what is now the United States. He landed in the Caribbean and hung out there and in Latin America a bit. USA, not so much. This is usually a surprise to my US students as well.

Those are the surprises that keeps my curiosity peeked to continue learning.

Many Christians, store information received in this "God did it" box. If it conflicts with there belief, it goes that box labeled under "Not true, God did it". If the information does not conflict with their belief, then it goes into their brain as fact. Unfortunately, this also can happen to Christian students as they are going through school. Especially when they see adults putting up such a fight about what is being taught in school. Evolution may be the topic they choose, thinking it sounded the silliest and that they could prove it wrong. I could prove them wrong, but if I didn't open their mind just a smidgen...I have accomplished nothing.

« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 09:54:43 PM by This Is Me »

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This planet and universe puts me in awe everyday. Its not that I want to live forever, just long enough to learn everything =) ~This is me

That 'ah ha' moment for me was learning that Christopher Columbus was not the first person to step on American ground. I always thought he discovered it, so he was the first to step foot.

And, that it was common knowledge at the time (among the higher ups anyway) that Earth was not flat, that there was indeed land there to be found (just not, an entire buggering continent!) and that the size of the Earth was pretty accurately known to some ... Columbus not being one of them ... he seriously underestimated the size of the planet.

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Science: I'll believe it when I see itFaith: I'll see it when I believe it

That is hard for them to do. In a lot of cases they base their whole belief system on some stupid misconception like that. Admitting error is equivalent to losing everything. I have tried in the past to point out that you can still believe in god, just not for this reason. I do not recall ever being successful.

An the whole conspiracy conceptualization of science infuriates me(I.e. the movie Expelled). "Look at every Famous scientist...do you know why they are famous? Do you? Because they disproved some previously famous scientist. So there isn't some conspiracy of conformity in a system that rewards upheaval. Get it through your thick skull!"

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

"Look at every Famous scientist...do you know why they are famous? Do you? Because they disproved some previously famous scientist. So there isn't some conspiracy of conformity in a system that rewards upheaval. Get it through your thick skull!"

"That just shows how unreliable science is. It changes every week. The word of god, on the other hand, never changes. "

"Look at every Famous scientist...do you know why they are famous? Do you? Because they disproved some previously famous scientist. So there isn't some conspiracy of conformity in a system that rewards upheaval. Get it through your thick skull!"

"That just shows how unreliable science is. It changes every week. The word of god, on the other hand, never changes. "

I hate how people always want it both ways.

Like, for example, how previous Christian doctrine dictated that committing suicide damned one to hell, but not anymore? And modern xians don't know that history, so they're like "no, it's always been like that..." Yeah, Oceanea has always been at war with Eurasia.

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...religion is simply tribalism with a side order of philosophical wankery, and occasionally a baseball bat to smash...anyone who doesn't show...deference to the tribe's chosen totem.

~Astreja

To not believe in god is to know that it falls to us to make the world a better place.

Like, for example, how previous Christian doctrine dictated that committing suicide damned one to hell, but not anymore?

Which flavor of xian? xianity is not a monolithic institution. Catholics have always said that and still do. They have not changed. Other denominations may disagree on that - I don't know - but they also disagree on other matters. I would not say that is necessarily a change. I would say that is an entirely different doctrine for an entirely different organization.

Like, for example, how previous Christian doctrine dictated that committing suicide damned one to hell, but not anymore?

Which flavor of xian? xianity is not a monolithic institution. Catholics have always said that and still do. They have not changed. Other denominations may disagree on that - I don't know - but they also disagree on other matters. I would not say that is necessarily a change. I would say that is an entirely different doctrine for an entirely different organization.

Yes they do, but notice how Catholic can get marriages "annulled" which means divorced in everything but name. A wealthy enough family can still get a member of that family who committed suicide a Catholic funeral and burial plot as they can apply under some sort of exception based on mental illness.

« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 08:03:21 AM by Hatter23 »

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An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

That is more about how the rules are executed and enforced by individuals than it is about whether doctrine has changed. It could even have to do with compassion for a hurting family in the case of a suicide.

Like, for example, how previous Christian doctrine dictated that committing suicide damned one to hell, but not anymore?

Which flavor of xian? xianity is not a monolithic institution. Catholics have always said that and still do. They have not changed. Other denominations may disagree on that - I don't know - but they also disagree on other matters. I would not say that is necessarily a change. I would say that is an entirely different doctrine for an entirely different organization.

Paragraph 2283 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

"We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. the Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives."

See?? Even if a loved one has committed a "cursed" sin such as suicide, the faithful can still trust in gawd's mysterious ways. Of course he has ways unbeknownst to man that will allow him to circumvent the rules and save the lost one!

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...religion is simply tribalism with a side order of philosophical wankery, and occasionally a baseball bat to smash...anyone who doesn't show...deference to the tribe's chosen totem.

~Astreja

To not believe in god is to know that it falls to us to make the world a better place.

It is still a sin, since it violates the "thou shall not kill" commandment and a whole bunch of other derivative ideas.[1]

Fr Byron mentions that some of the practices around suicides have changed - they now get church burials, etc - but the basic premise has not changed - it is a forbidden act and a grave sin. He does not come right out and say you don't go to hell, but he rather dances around the point.

In catholicism (for those who don't know) you confess your sins to the priest, get assigned pennance and are forgiven. Pennance, for the rather vanilla sins I committed as a catholic, usually amounted to a bunch of hail marys and our fathers. Once you did that you were in a state of grace. That is, a state of being sin free. Until your next sin. The whole idea is to die in a state of grace so you could get into heaven.

Suicide is problematic for the catholic on a secondary basis because it is a sin you will not get a chance to repent. So, on that theory, it is a mortal sin (murder) for which there is no hope of grace, which should land the perpetrator in hell.

So, Boots, you are right. According to that priest, you do not necessarily have a one-way ticket to the Hot Place. But you are incorrect in that the basic view of suicide - a mortal sin - has not changed.

I just love it when they get a professor of SUCH and SUCH, which is not a field that is familiar with the minute details and mechanisms of biology and biochemistry, to state on TV that they read the Bible in their spare time and that they look at beautiful things and they all look designed.

Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

If someone say this stupidity. Say to "him/her" that many scientists think that the "universe" still existed. Also you must precise that this arguments isn't in the right debate because he/she confounded the debate about the "God's Existence" and "Creationism VS Evolution theory".

If someone say this stupidity. Say to "him/her" that many scientists think that the "universe" still existed. Also you must precise that this arguments isn't in the right debate because he/she confounded the debate about the "God's Existence" and "Creationism VS Evolution theory".

I prefer claiming to be a god. The obvious reply is "No you're not". At that point, I can simply say "Prove it".