I'll explain each of the card choices and then give a tutorial on how the deck should be played.

Ghost Quarter: This card is absolutely necessary. Once we start going off, Ghost Quarter actually starts netting us extra mana. It's also extremely important to thin our library. When I first started working on this deck I had 4 Seat of the Synod and 4 Ancient Den. I kept cutting the artifact lands one at a time, thinking they were somehow necessary because I was playing Reshape. Eventually, I came to realize that the artifact lands were unnecessary and caused the deck to fizzle far more often than I would like. Usually, when I start going off I don't play any land I draw until I draw a Ghost Quarter.

The basic lands: I wanted to include a single Forest and Plains for easy casting of Wargate.

Second Sunrise: The cornerstone of the combo. We draw our library by looping this spell with different artifacts. Once we draw our library we use the Second Sunrise to kill our opponent with our Spellbombs.

Wargate: The first Wargate you draw serves as a Reshape, it finds your Lotus Bloom and allows you to go off with your Second Sunrise. After that, Wargate finds Ghost Quarters or card-drawing artifacts.

Reshape: Reshape is one of the key pieces to the combo. Putting Lotus Bloom directly into play is an important play. Once we start looping through the combo the Reshapes can find extra card-drawing artifacts and help us draw our library faster.

Lotus Bloom: I always found myself siding one of these out when I played four. Suspending a Lotus Bloom on any turn besides the first is usually just a waste of a card. Drawing Lotus Blooms while you're trying to sift through your library and find relevant spells is especially frustrating. I have been quite happy with three copies, but four may still be correct. I need more time and testing to decide which is the right number.

Chromatic Star and Chromatic Sphere: The basic "eggs." Chromatic Star and Chromatic Sphere are incredible here. If I could play twenty copies of one of these cards I most certainly would. They allow us to cast strange cards like Spoils of the Vault and Reclaim and they help us draw our library when we're comboing.

Conjurer's Bauble: Another elegant piece of the puzzle. Conjurer's Bauble is an egg, but it also doubles as our win condition. Once we draw our entire library we need to use the Conjurer's Bauble to put Second Sunrise back on the bottom and loop our Spellbombs.

Edge of Autumn: Edge of Autumn is incredible. It nets us mana and draws us some cards.

Elsewhere Flask: The Flask is a great new addition. It makes the deck a lot more consistent. We don't have to worry as much about getting artifacts into play to set up the combo.

The Spellbombs: These act as eggs and can be recycled with Second Sunrise to win the game once we draw our entire deck.

Preordain: I wish I knew a better card for this slot. For right now this is the best option we have here, though.

Spoils of the Vault: I did the math and the deck still has fizzling issues. One Spoils of the Vault is probably enough to ensure we have the ability to find a Second Sunrise when we need to go off.

Reclaim: Reclaim really only targets the Second Sunrise. It's important that we maximize the number of Second Sunrises in our deck. We may be drawing twelve or thirteen cards at a time, but if we don't draw a Reclaim or Second Sunrise, we'll be fizzling and passing the turn with no permanents in play. We can also use Reclaim to make our opponent run out of cards after we gain infinite life with Sunbeam Spellbomb.

Playing the deck, and problems that have arisin

So far Aggro is a very easy game. Most people assume combo is dead in this format and thus there is almost no hate. Aggro is too slow for a turn 3-4 win. The only games i have lost are to Goblin Sligh style decks that get 2 Goblin Guides turn 1 or something dumb like that. As long as you can find a Sunrise your golden.

Cloudpost decks are hit and miss. If you can go off before they can establish Blue, or can combo when they tap down your good. However this match-up will need to be addressed. You can't just wait around like you can against a MUC deck since they drop an Emrakul on you. Silence might be really good here.

Black Discard has not be a problem as of yet. You just drop some egg's, and once you draw a Sunrise you GG them. They don't have a big clock yet so it's been easy times.

Cards To Consider for SB/MD
Silence - Good for counters
Grand Abolisher - Great for stopping stuff, but WW is rough.
Nature's Claim - Stops Leylines and Relics
Qasali Pridemage - Currently one in my board. Kills Leyline of Sanctity and can be recurred to destroy extra's.

Maveric78f

08-14-2011, 03:50 AM

Just a question: why reclaim over Noxious Revival ?

Tempus

08-14-2011, 04:40 AM

Cause it's an old primer.

Also Surgical Extraction/Extirpate might be a problem...

Koby

08-14-2011, 04:57 AM

I've ran a few tests, and Extirpate is a big problem.

I think SB Grand Abolisher is absolutely necessary.

RainbowPenguin

08-14-2011, 05:29 AM

You may want to fix that manabase. Adding Ravnica shocklands as well as fetchlands would give you more consistent mana, and the library thinning is looking to be actually relevant here. Also, if you fetch the turn you go off, your fetchlands come back with Second Sunrise, same as Ghost Quarter.

If you are just digging for specific cards, Ponder is generally better than Preordain, since you get to see more cards. Your one-of Spoils of the Vault can only be cast off of a Chromatic Sphere/Star, I suggest you either exchange it for another Ponder, or add an appropriate fetchable land.

The "Playing the deck" section actually doesn't explain how you play the deck. Just to be sure: The overall idea is to cast a number of sacrificeable cantripping artifacts, sac them, use Second Sunrise to get them back, draw a bunch of cards in the process, use a newly drawn Second Sunrise or Noxious Revival to do it again, over and over, until you have drawn you entire library, at which point you loop Second Sunrise, a Conjurer's Bauble and an appropriate Spellbomb for the actual win, using Lotus Bloom/Ghost Quartered lands/fetchlands to pay for stuff along the way?

Jeff Kruchkow

08-14-2011, 05:34 AM

Ichor Wellspring seems strictly better than Elsewhere Flask. Also as was said Noxious Revival is a better Reclaim.

Technics

08-14-2011, 05:57 AM

Noxios Revival is going in for Reclaim.

Ichor Wellspring can't be saced to be brought back again and again with Second Sunrise. Thus it is MUCH worse.

Fetchlands are a very good idea. I'm not sure about Rav Duals as the life loss MIGHT be relevant, will have to test that theory.

This is a very old primer indeed. It's based off an old extended deck.

In the Ponder/Spoils slots, what do you guys think of main deck hate (say Silence/Abolisher?)

Jeff Kruchkow

08-14-2011, 06:54 AM

Noxios Revival is going in for Reclaim.

Ichor Wellspring can't be saced to be brought back again and again with Second Sunrise. Thus it is MUCH worse.

Fetchlands are a very good idea. I'm not sure about Rav Duals as the life loss MIGHT be relevant, will have to test that theory.

This is a very old primer indeed. It's based off an old extended deck.

In the Ponder/Spoils slots, what do you guys think of main deck hate (say Silence/Abolisher?)

You do play reshape so Wellspring isn't really bad persay but maybe I'm just biased against Flask. Also, fetches seem good but not seem eh. You want lots of basics so that when you go off, Ghost Quarter will consistently net you mana. As for maindeck hate, what is this deck scared of game 1 that Chant/etc helps with? Countermagic I guess? I feel like the meta has to develop first because if blue isn't a huge part of the field you'd rather have gas to race the non-blue decks.

Mr. Froggy

08-14-2011, 09:09 AM

You may want to fix that manabase. Adding Ravnica shocklands as well as fetchlands would give you more consistent mana, and the library thinning is looking to be actually relevant here. Also, if you fetch the turn you go off, your fetchlands come back with Second Sunrise, same as Ghost Quarter.

If you are just digging for specific cards, Ponder is generally better than Preordain, since you get to see more cards. Your one-of Spoils of the Vault can only be cast off of a Chromatic Sphere/Star, I suggest you either exchange it for another Ponder, or add an appropriate fetchable land.

The "Playing the deck" section actually doesn't explain how you play the deck. Just to be sure: The overall idea is to cast a number of sacrificeable cantripping artifacts, sac them, use Second Sunrise to get them back, draw a bunch of cards in the process, use a newly drawn Second Sunrise or Noxious Revival to do it again, over and over, until you have drawn you entire library, at which point you loop Second Sunrise, a Conjurer's Bauble and an appropriate Spellbomb for the actual win, using Lotus Bloom/Ghost Quartered lands/fetchlands to pay for stuff along the way?

I played the deck back in the day of Old Extended, and it doesn't really need shocklands, since all your Spheres do the mana-fixing, the life-loss is not really worth it.

Zach Tartell

08-14-2011, 09:23 AM

Explain to me how you don't deck yourself when you get down to 0 cards in pool? Bauble draws the card that you put there with it, so you can't generate any :r: mana because the stars will deck you.

...unless I'm missing something?

Mr. Froggy

08-14-2011, 09:31 AM

The combo is: Lotus Bloom+Conjurer's Bauble+Second Sunrise

It goes like this, cast sac Bloom add WWW, play Sunrise get everything back (you get everything once more) and then Bauble your Sunrise, and Draw it, rinse and repeat until your opponent is dead.

Koby

08-14-2011, 01:12 PM

You need 2 Lotus Bloom to complete the kill, one sacs for :w::w::w: to cast Sunrise, the 2nd :r::r::r: to generate damage mana for Pyrite Spellbomb.

Seal of Fire works just as well, and easier too.

Zach Tartell

08-14-2011, 01:15 PM

So you have to find and cast/discard 2 Blooms? and you're only playing three? Sounds.... not great.

Edit: I mean, I guess, Wargate. But what happens if you draw them?

SECOND EDIT: Oh, Reshape. I guess that's pretty cool.

Jeff Kruchkow

08-14-2011, 01:57 PM

And the combo can go at instant speed so you can end your turn, discard down and kill them in their upkeep.

Technics

08-14-2011, 03:40 PM

You need 2 Lotus Bloom to complete the kill, one sacs for :w::w::w: to cast Sunrise, the 2nd :r::r::r: to generate damage mana for Pyrite Spellbomb.

Seal of Fire works just as well, and easier too.

Yeah seal is "easier" in that there is less thinking, but you can't use it to draw if your in bad shape and need the extra draw. I like Spellbomb because of the versitility.

RainbowPenguin

08-14-2011, 03:57 PM

Discarding Lotus Bloom does not cause it to come back with second sunrise. That only happens if it goes from the battlefield to the graveyard.

You don't need two Lotus Bloom, one lotus bloom + one Ghost Quarter works too. Tap a land for mana, Ghost Quarter it, get them both back as part of the loop. You net + 1 mana each time. Get infy white mana, loop again, this time you sac Lotus for red mana and use it to power the spellbomb. Use aforementioned white mana to power the loop as many times as you need to win.

Technics

08-14-2011, 04:09 PM

Discarding Lotus Bloom does not cause it to come back with second sunrise. That only happens if it goes from the battlefield to the graveyard.

You don't need two Lotus Bloom, one lotus bloom + one Ghost Quarter works too. Tap a land for mana, Ghost Quarter it, get them both back as part of the loop. You net + 1 mana each time. Get infy white mana, loop again, this time you sac Lotus for red mana and use it to power the spellbomb. Use aforementioned white mana to power the loop as many times as you need to win.

Yep, You can also Bauble Blooms you discarded, and Reshape them into play.

Zach Tartell

08-14-2011, 04:17 PM

I'm 100% certain that it's not worth arguing about whether it's a good idea to discard Bloom in a deck that has 0 ways to build CA (if you aren't going off) so it's literally always better to just suspend a bloom than it is to discard it.

marit

08-15-2011, 12:20 AM

Where does this stupid name come from? What does EDNAE even stand for? When the deck debuted, the French called it Omlette Aux Lotus, then the Americans renamed it something stupid, I forget what. I played this at a PTQ back in INV/7E extended, going 6-2, losing because extirpate on conjurer's bauble is GG. The real name of this deck should be Sunrise Long, cause that is just badass. /rant

More on topic: As much as I love this deck, I don't think it is viable. The old list ran cunnining wish, so it could play 7 Sunrises MD, and wish for sunrise back if the opponent extirpated it (I really miss those old rules). Now it is straight up dead to extirpate, and surgical extraction will be a real pain in the ass too (which I guarantee a lot of people will be playing). The list will need protection, and I think abolisher is out because of the WW cost. Silence or thoughtseize would work well, but the mana base would need to be changed a bit. I would probably add 3 fetches, and there is no need to run all those basic islands (because stars, lotus and flask are all good color fixing). Fetches act as additional ghost quarters too. I don't have a list right now, but just some food for thought.

Mr. Froggy

08-15-2011, 09:15 AM

EDNAE: Eggs: Disclaimer No Actual Eggs (because it does not have any actual Odyssey eggs)

marit

08-15-2011, 12:52 PM

EDNAE: Eggs: Disclaimer No Actual Eggs (because it does not have any actual Odyssey eggs)

Sunrise Long is a so much better name.

Mr. Safety

08-16-2011, 03:21 PM

I just finished a legacy-legal version of this deck (for casual play) and I gotta say, I'm pretty excited about it in modern.

My take on the deck for modern (initial test list, the mana base needs work, lol):

In the legacy version, I kept up with mana requirements to cast Eggs/Stars with Dark Ritual. Rite of Flame should do that for you, and it gains a little with every use. I have found Silence to be the best overall protection against blue decks, and can be used proactively against aggro decks if you sense they are going to burn you FTW. Rite of Flame only makes red mana, but if you get even one Chromatic Star/Sphere you can filter it easily enough. It's important to note that Silence is really good vs. Dragonstorm decks, too. You can respond to Rite of Flame with Silence (because Rite is a sorcery) therefore stopping them from getting the mana to build into Seething Song.

The Aether Spellbombs allow you to work with problematic fatties, especially Emrakul (which elf decks will be hardcasting FTW...) and provides you with a 20 cantrip artifact count so you can dig deep with your combo turn. Just delaying a Noble Hierarch or Birds of Paradise with a Pyrite/Aether Spellbomb for one turn can sometimes mean you get to that unsuspended Lotus Bloom on turn 4.

Other playtest options: Pact of Negation, Simian Spirit Guide, fetchlands (but there is a critical mass of them to consider, especially with Ghost Quarter pulling out basics a ton of times), Duress, Inquisition of Kozilek, Lodestone Golem so far...

Mr. Froggy

08-16-2011, 06:13 PM

As a name, I like Sunny Side Up, but that's another matter. In this build, I am not fond of Spoils AT ALL because it would always kill me before it did anything relevant.

Mr. Safety

08-17-2011, 07:44 AM

I tend to agree from playtesting results...Jacob Van Lunen posted an article today at magicthegathering.com about his version, and it uses Edge of Autumn (which is really sexy with Second Sunrise) and a full set of Noxious Revivals.

Without the eggs, I think the deck needs a name like 'The Sun Also Rises' or 'Reshaping the Sun'.

Mr. Froggy

08-17-2011, 07:54 AM

Edge of Autumn was awesome in the build. I loved it. :smile:

Koby

08-17-2011, 04:20 PM

I've tested (or solitaired) the deck on Magic Online. Man is this deck painful to play mechanically. I don't recommend it for MTGO. It takes >10 minutes of actions to just get to the end-game portion (where you can start fireballing them).

Mr. Safety

08-17-2011, 04:24 PM

I've tested (or solitaired) the deck on Magic Online. Man is this deck painful to play mechanically. I don't recommend it for MTGO. It takes >10 minutes of actions to just get to the end-game portion (where you can start fireballing them).

I'm going to buy some glass beads that are blue, white, and black so I can keep track of the mana in my pool, lol. On MWS you can do it with a click, but with a paper deck it's a nightmare.

kicks_422

08-17-2011, 07:33 PM

I goldfished a bit. Finding Second Sunrise is the hardest part, isn't it?

OurSerratedDust

08-17-2011, 09:13 PM

Sunrise Long is a so much better name.
I gotta agree.

Mr. Safety

08-18-2011, 07:33 AM

I goldfished a bit. Finding Second Sunrise is the hardest part, isn't it?

Yes, that is indeed the issue. The whole deck hinges on getting multiple uses of Sunrise. Without the oddyssey eggs, you just don't draw as many cards as you should. Edge of Autumn helps out in that regard, but I think that Street Wraith may become the de-facto cycler of choice. Edge works awesome by sacking lands...if you can get a Sunrise and resolve it. If not, you're actually moving backwards due to the mana-intensive nature of the combo-turn. I'm also thinking about testing Explore...the mana-base needs to be adjusted, but with Misty Rainforest and a singleton Forest/Breeding Pool it shouldn't even be an issue.

The deck needs a decent tutor, BADLY. Folks have toyed with Spoils of the Vault but it's HORRIBLE vs. RDW, zoo, and aggro in general (which SHOULD be your bread-and-butter matchup!) Ditto on Plunge into Darkness. Diabolic Tutor just costs too much, giving Vendilion Clique/Thoughtsieze/Inquisition of Kozilek/Duress time to rape you (not to mention you need that mana to actually cast Second Sunrise...)

Transmute is probably our best bet. Drift of Phantasms, Dimir Machinations, or Perplex could work, but with a primarily blue deck, Drift will most likely be the tutor of choice. It also doubles up as some life insurance against the faster aggro decks, but not much. I'm guessing straight tutor action from it.

I actually played against a version that was using Bitter Ordeal as their win/condition...not too shabby, it's essentially a storm win. Grapeshot is a lot more straightforward, but Leyline of Sanctity hoses both, and it will get play due to the zoo/sligh decks in the format.

The deck has so much more variance in modern than it does in legacy...but that's to be expected. Without the Eggs, Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, Lim-Dul's Vault, and Doomsday to help you out it's a little harder to get moving.

Fons

08-19-2011, 02:30 PM

I started playing 4 open the vaults as extra Second Sunrises the consistency has improved dramatically and It can easily go off on turn 3. As a secondary win condition I'm playing 1 time sieve and 1 Tezzeret the seeker.

Sims

08-19-2011, 03:34 PM

I started playing 4 open the vaults as extra Second Sunrises the consistency has improved dramatically and It can easily go off on turn 3. As a secondary win condition I'm playing 1 time sieve and 1 Tezzeret the seeker.

This is a pretty good idea, though it hurts the mana development that you can do with ghost quarter and lands. Do you think 4 is the right call? I might try it as a 2 of at first and see how I feel about it.

Fons

08-19-2011, 03:41 PM

This is a pretty good idea, though it hurts the mana development that you can do with ghost quarter and lands. Do you think 4 is the right call? I might try it as a 2 of at first and see how I feel about it.

I started with 2 and then 3 and now 4, I'm pretty sure that 4 is correct because even in multiples there fine and during the combo you always want at least 1 in your hand. The combo is definitely more consistent with them. I am not liking the ghost quarters as much as I thought I would, I think more disruption with a stronger mana base is the correct route.

Technics

08-20-2011, 12:34 AM

Open the vaults requires 2 Blooms to generate mana. This is a huge no go. I have not had a problem with just the 4 Sunrise. I normally just wait until the last second, then go off before I die, so waiting for the Sunrise is just fine.

I am now running 3 Silence in the spot of the 1 Spoils and 2 Ponders. Will see how this works out.

Kanti

08-20-2011, 01:08 PM

I don't know why all of you think Spoils sucks. Sure it blows against Zoo and comes out vs them, but it's not bad vs all creature decks. It is also probably the best card you can have vs control and combo. It shines vs decks like Doran where they rape you with discard.

The deck needs to run it's 12 eggs+Elsewhere Flask as eggs 13-16. Ichor Wellspring is just a filler is an Egg and has synergy with Reshape. Wargate is pretty amazing but it has a tough mana cost.

The fun thing about this deck is how versatile it is in comboing. Say you face Zoo and you now there are no counters. You can do a mini-combo to get you way ahead in board position and just windmill slam the win next turn.

I started playing 4 open the vaults as extra Second Sunrises the consistency has improved dramatically and It can easily go off on turn 3. As a secondary win condition I'm playing 1 time sieve and 1 Tezzeret the seeker.

I tried tweaking the list to run 4 Sunrise and 4 Open the Vaults - have lost only one match so far since then. Running 8 copies of your key card really takes consistency up through the roof. I also have 8 ways to put the main enabler into play, so the casting cost of 6 isn't an issue.

Open the Vaults also allows you to recover if something bad happens during the combo chain (e.g. Extirpate on something, Krosan Grip on something, Silence, etc.) as it gets you back all the artifacts, not just what you sacrificed for the turn.

The match I lost, btw, was against a U/B control deck that had Leyline of the Void maindecked. I think with my build, graveyard hate is the only big problem left to solve, and it's ging to be pretty difficult to answer that. Pithing Needle for Relic and Chain of Vapor for Leyline?

kicks_422

08-21-2011, 10:14 PM

I started playing 4 open the vaults as extra Second Sunrises the consistency has improved dramatically and It can easily go off on turn 3. As a secondary win condition I'm playing 1 time sieve and 1 Tezzeret the seeker.

I tried tweaking the list to run 4 Sunrise and 4 Open the Vaults - have lost only one match so far since then. Running 8 copies of your key card really takes consistency up through the roof. I also have 8 ways to put the main enabler into play, so the casting cost of 6 isn't an issue.

Open the Vaults also allows you to recover if something bad happens during the combo chain (e.g. Extirpate on something, Krosan Grip on something, Silence, etc.) as it gets you back all the artifacts, not just what you sacrificed for the turn.

The match I lost, btw, was against a U/B control deck that had Leyline of the Void maindecked. I think with my build, graveyard hate is the only big problem left to solve, and it's ging to be pretty difficult to answer that. Pithing Needle for Relic and Chain of Vapor for Leyline?

Sims

08-21-2011, 10:48 PM

I tried tweaking the list to run 4 Sunrise and 4 Open the Vaults - have lost only one match so far since then. Running 8 copies of your key card really takes consistency up through the roof. I also have 8 ways to put the main enabler into play, so the casting cost of 6 isn't an issue.

Open the Vaults also allows you to recover if something bad happens during the combo chain (e.g. Extirpate on something, Krosan Grip on something, Silence, etc.) as it gets you back all the artifacts, not just what you sacrificed for the turn.

The match I lost, btw, was against a U/B control deck that had Leyline of the Void maindecked. I think with my build, graveyard hate is the only big problem left to solve, and it's ging to be pretty difficult to answer that. Pithing Needle for Relic and Chain of Vapor for Leyline?

I haven't had an opportunity to test yet with Open the Vaults, but I'm planning on it. That might actually work better than my other plan of squeezing in a couple copies of Mystical Teachings. Sure 4 mana is a lot, but instant speed tutoring up sunrise on their end step and going off in their face has been nice. Not sure if it's going to stay but we'll see.

As for the Leyline issue... That's a problem. Pithing Needle is good for relic and I've been toying with Leyline of Sanctity for the targeted gravehate and heavy discard decks... Nature's Claim or Echoing Truth might be our next best bets for anti-LotV with CoV out.

kicks_422

08-22-2011, 01:28 AM

4 Open the Vaults has been so effective that I'm contemplating dropping the Noxious Revivals completely. They just clog up the hand since I can get several "sunrise" effects in my hand quickly.

I'm mulling running 4 Nature's Claim for both the Leyline and the artifact grave hate. Just side them in and hope to see them, just as with Dredge.

Also, I'm thinking of utilizing another kill - drawing your whole deck is too tedious, and I would think doing the whole process over and over again could get me tired out easily. Initially, I'm looking at Disciple of the Vault, or upping the number of Pyrite Spellbombs so that I can just start chucking them at the opponents much earlier without needing to use the Bauble-Sunrise-Spellbomb thing.

Mr. Safety

08-22-2011, 08:52 AM

Open the vaults requires 2 Blooms to generate mana. This is a huge no go. I have not had a problem with just the 4 Sunrise. I normally just wait until the last second, then go off before I die, so waiting for the Sunrise is just fine.

I am now running 3 Silence in the spot of the 1 Spoils and 2 Ponders. Will see how this works out.

Listen to this guy...I'm playing a BUG list in modern right now, and I haven't lost to Sunrise yet in about 9 games. You need a way to protect your combo turn, and Silence is about your best tech. I like the Open the Vaults inclusion...awesome! Now you need Silence in your sideboard.

I played against one guy that sideboarded in Pact of Negation...and I asked him (on MWS) did you side out your Noxious Revival's for Silence? He said 'no'. I replied. 'Bummer...you should have.'

Silence fishes out the counterspell and allows you to combo undisturbed. If you're playing against Dragonstorm or 12-Post, this can buy you the turn you need to go off on them. It seems, to me, to be the best utility protection the deck can run, especially considering it is on-color with Second Sunrise and Open the Vaults. You could easily toss in a plains or 2 to shore up the mana base.

smoky squirrel

08-23-2011, 07:12 AM

Can you post your list, Kicks? I am quite interested in how you would modify the list with the additions and still keep the combo intact. I even have trouble sideboarding...

Does anybody play nonbasics, or have a good reason not to do so? I think Moon effects need to be avoided, otherwise it is another way to stop us in our combo turn.

Has anyone tried out Street Wraith yet? I know Edge of Autumn is great for getting lands back to reuse (working great with Second Sunrise), but I worry about the lack of Ponder...

What does your sideboard look like kicks_422?

semioldguy

08-24-2011, 02:46 PM

Why play Street Wraith when you could play Gitaxian Probe? Same cost, but upside of using a mana if you can't spare two life since it's blue, and looking at the opponent's hand, which can be relevant for a combo deck.

It isn't likely to get countered as it would be one of the least relevant spells to counter in the deck. And if it is countered for some reason, you are either dead because you opponent can waste counters on irrelevant cards, or you win because your opponent is dumb and you just cleared the way for resolving silence or second sunrise.

Sims

08-24-2011, 03:15 PM

I actually hate using Edge unless I'm mid-going off via Sunrise, so I've been thinking of cutting it down in numbers from my build or using probe/wraith in it's place.

I'm also not hip to Wargate. Sure, resolving your first Lotus Bloom is necessary, but once you've got bloom down and you're going off, Wargate is a fairly dead card, at least in my testiing.

For refernce, I started with the list posted on the mothership (11 island, 4 ghost quarter, 4 ponder, 2 preordain, +combo cards) and have been slowly modifying the list. I don't like all 4 Edge of Autumns and I haven't been super happy with Open the Vaults either. I'm still wondering if it might be worth it to run a teachings or two as extra copies of sunrise and just go for sunrise. Four mana is a lot for a tutor, but it's an instant so I can grab my sunrise at their EoT and combo off on my turn post Silence.

Just another thought to test, I suppose.

Mr. Safety

08-24-2011, 04:13 PM

I think the key is the cantrip artifacts (Flask, Stars, Bauble) and only having 16 of them is rough. You really should have 20 cantrip artifacts (from my experience with the deck in legacy.) Edge of Autumn is your next best bet, along with potentialy Probe/Wraith for added draw...but they don't get exponentially better like the artifacts do. While the spellbombs are more mana intensive because they don't replace the mana used, I think you need enough to get to that 20 count of cantrip artifacts.

During goldfishing on the play I combo more half of the time on turn 4. Sometimes on turn 3 or 5. I fizzle, mull into oblivion or am not able to combo at about one in 8 games.

Disclaimer: I did not bring this deck to an actual tournament yet, but I did a lot of goldfishing and some playtesting. There is a weekly tournament though and I will start participating next week.

A fundamental difference between most of the lists I've seen in this thread is the fact, that I use only Islands as basiclands, several cantrips and Drift of Phantasms as Second Sunrise 5-7.
I really like Ponder and Preordain in this deck, as a Hand with no island is most likely a hand with 0-1 lands and thus unkeepable. A Hand with only one Island and 1-2 Preordain/Ponder is usually a good hand. During the combo I either draw enough chromatics, if I don't I usually have enough mana floating to use Ponder and Preordain to dig for the next Second Sunrise/Drift/Revival. Ponder also lets you look at 4 cards. you have to resolve 3 Second Sunrise to let a Chromatic reveal the same number of cards.

Some words on tutors:
While Drift may act as a Open the Vaults (Drift + Sunrise =6 mana, just as OtV) I very often transmute Drift on turn 3 to combo on turn 4.
I do not like spoils from the vault because of the number of zoo decks in this meta, the need to include additional Pyrite Spellbombs into the deck and the impossibility to use more than one Spoils during one game.

Some other notable exclusions:
Wargate: I want to search for my first Lotus Bloom before I cast my first second sunrise but its very difficult to produce the necessary colors. Unless reshape it does not net one additional mana.
Elsewhere Flask: I had some number of these in the slot of Ponder, but two mana is a lot. For the same two mana I might cast a Preordain and a Ponder which gets more value, during the set up and even during the combo.

@semioldguy: I totally agree with you, but I think 4 Probes is not the right number. Versus Zoo every life point matters and drawing more than one in you starting 7 makes mulligan decisions very hard.

@Sims: I prefer 3 mana over 4 so I run Drift of Phantasms over Mystical Tachings. The flashback _never_ made a difference so far. I'm not able to see the advantage you get by tutoring eot to "surprise" your opponent. Edge of Autumn is a great card. Especially during the first and second Second Sunrise I need every additional mana I can get.
You prefer Ponder over Preordain? Isn't Ponder inferior during set up?

@Mr. Safety: I think this deck is very different to Legacy. You loose lots of cheap mana (Lotus Petal, Archaeological Dig...). Because of this, spellbombs and Elsewhere Flask are not able to replace the eggs. I tried to replace the eggs with cantrips and it works great so far.

Sims

08-26-2011, 01:51 PM

@Sims: I prefer 3 mana over 4 so I run Drift of Phantasms over Mystical Tachings. The flashback _never_ made a difference so far. I'm not able to see the advantage you get by tutoring eot to "surprise" your opponent. Edge of Autumn is a great card. Especially during the first and second Second Sunrise I need every additional mana I can get.
You prefer Ponder over Preordain? Isn't Ponder inferior during set up?

Mystical was basically a testing slot. I've got Drifts but I haven't really tested them yet. They likely will get the nod over Teachings if simply due to the fact that it's easier to set up that way. What I don't like about it is that it broadcasts your next turn. With little to no protection, transmuting turn 3 broadcasts the turn 4 win intention and they will know to either hold mana up for counter magic or to cast whatever discard spell they have that they might have otherwise cast out a threat. However, it's likely the best we can do.

Edge is a great card, however you point out yourself especially during the first and second Sunrise. I like seeing them when I'm going off, not when I'm setting up. Hence, likely cut to 3, maybe 2, but probably 3 of.

Ponder vs. Preordain could go either way, for me I like the ability to dig 1 card deeper. It's a personal preference, but I personally feel ponder has been better for me.

Kanti

08-26-2011, 03:23 PM

Why aren't you guys playing fetchlands? If you don't have Ghost or a fetch it is hard as hell to combo off as you are simply not going through enough of your deck. The life loss is negligible to how much it speeds you up.

I like OtV but I don't know. It's mana cost is rather prohibitive, especially since this deck is always scrambling for mana. Noxious is 0-1 mana and even if you just have 1 Star you can get Sunrise off the top. (Sac it for mana, use the mana, let it hit the gy, draw) It basically reads "Get back Second Sunrise, now"

To Mr.Safety, Edge is better in every single way. It's pretty much the best cantrip while comboing off. It gives mana which this deck needs a lot of.

Mr. Safety

08-26-2011, 08:32 PM

Yes, it's good while comboing off...it's bad when you are not. I think 2 is enough in the deck, and the other 2 slots should go to Gitaxian Probe. This gets your deck to that magic 20 cantrip effects that I was talking about.

Regardless, I think Silence maindeck x3-4 is smarter than Wargate. You have 4 Reshapes and 4 Lotus Blooms...that should give you enough consistency. I tend to think that more than 1-2 Open the Vaults is not a smart move...it's just too slow, as Kanti mentioned.

I like the dig version that dorsch cooked up with Drifts, Ponders, and Preordains. Nice. I would say that 4 Gitaxian Probe and 4 Ponders would be better, and if you have any slots left, then squeeze in Preordain...just my opinion.

Mr. Froggy

08-27-2011, 09:10 AM

The Wargates aren't only for the Lotus Blooms, they're for Ghost Quarter also.

Mr. Safety

08-29-2011, 08:00 AM

Wargate is a REALLY expensive Rampant Growth than. You do realize that you can just use a fetchland for land acceleration at the low cost of 1-life with each activation? Just use fetches and basics, and you should be fine. Ghost Quarter was the only 'fetchland' legal when this was in old extended...you now have real fetches at your disposal.

I just don't like Wargate...I feel 4 Reshapes are enough tutors. I think the real question is: Open the Vaults or not?

Maveric78f

08-29-2011, 08:37 AM

I don't get how Open the Vaults can be better than a transmute card (Drift of Phantasms typically). It still costs 6.

Kanti

08-29-2011, 01:01 PM

Dude, you need Ghost Quarter. And Wargate is amazing. Not as a four-of sure, but it is nothing like Growth at all.

Casting Wargate for bloom ensures that after you cast Sunrise you will have 3 extra mana to combo out with. That is 2-3 casted eggs, which means 2-3 extra draws.

OtV might be good, I have not tested with it, but Noxious Revival just seems better. Dodges Teeg, gets back other cards, and it cost 0-1 mana.

You guys gotta remember than you can sac an egg for green mana, use that green mana, play Revival, slap a Sunrise on top, and draw it off that egg.

Mr. Safety

08-29-2011, 01:13 PM

You guys gotta remember than you can sac an egg for green mana, use that green mana, play Revival, slap a Sunrise on top, and draw it off that egg.

I'm fairly certain that this does not work. You sacrifice the egg (Star really) for mana and draw a card at the same time. There isn't a moment between modes so you can now use that green mana to cast Revival before you draw. You will end up sacking the Star for green, draw a card, and THEN you may use that mana for Noxious Revival...but you need another source of card draw to get the returned Sunrise into your hand.

Tempus

08-29-2011, 05:35 PM

It works with Chromatic Star.

First ability is a mana ability so no stack, second is a trigger. You can respond to the trigger with revival..

Kanti

08-30-2011, 01:16 AM

^

That. And that is presuming you don't have the 2 life to pay. Aggro is fast as shit so maybe you won't, but who knows. If it's late game you can have activated Sunbeam Spellbomb, which happens pretty often.

I'm not sure this deck is good in the meta. As always it suffers from opposing gy hate, which is bound to pop up. It also sucks vs counter heavy decks, but at least there aren't that many around.

For the Zoo matchup you should be trying to combo out twice if it can get you ahead. A simple Sunrise chain with Ghost Quarter or a Fetchland can net you a lot of extra room to combo off on t3. At that point you just Revival pack a Sunrise, draw into another, or Spoils for it.

Mr. Safety

08-30-2011, 08:01 AM

Ahhh...I was looking at Chromatic Sphere, which got 'fixed' into Chromatic Star. Thanks for the run-down.

Technics

09-04-2011, 10:43 PM

Why aren't you guys playing fetchlands? If you don't have Ghost or a fetch it is hard as hell to combo off as you are simply not going through enough of your deck. The life loss is negligible to how much it speeds you up.

I like OtV but I don't know. It's mana cost is rather prohibitive, especially since this deck is always scrambling for mana. Noxious is 0-1 mana and even if you just have 1 Star you can get Sunrise off the top. (Sac it for mana, use the mana, let it hit the gy, draw) It basically reads "Get back Second Sunrise, now"

To Mr.Safety, Edge is better in every single way. It's pretty much the best cantrip while comboing off. It gives mana which this deck needs a lot of.

Thats what wargate is for. I so many times find myself reshaping a Bloom, and wargating a ghost, and using it to help me combo, then using it over and over on opponits, to kill their lands to stop them from stopping me.

dorsch

09-20-2011, 06:53 AM

So Ponder and Preordain are banned, which hardly weaken this deck. With all the faster combo decks out of the way, do you think this deck could become viable?

Mr. Safety

09-20-2011, 12:54 PM

Possibly...but combo being weaker = control getting stronger. The 'soft' counterspells in the format (Rune Snag, Mana Leak, Spell Pierce) have all become fairly relivant when you don't have to worry about Cloudpost or Rite of Flame. I'm not saying they are awesome, I'm just saying they are better now.

I think this deck can function just fine with no Ponders/Preordains. I'm curious what Visions of Beyond could do for the deck, considering the requirement is easy enough to achieve on the combo turn. It could really help the deck by digging another 3 cards deep and feeding more cantrips/lands.

boneclub24

11-15-2011, 12:57 AM

Hey guys, I got a set of Lotus Bloom on the cheap off of eBay. Because that was the only somewhat-spendy card in the deck, I decided to try and roll with this deck.

I'm just wondering what you guys think is the best way to run the deck? In my goldfishing, I found the Locket version to be pretty solid:

The deck will take some learning from me (I've never really played intricate combo decks...), but it seems like it will be a good deck for having over long periods of time.

Technics

01-23-2012, 12:51 AM

So with the Meta changing again, what do you guys think? I think the only really rough match-up is StoneBlade (or whatever it's Modern friend is called). Aggro seems good, and there is a ton of not blue control in the meta, that this beats before creature removal and CU's come online.

Kanti

01-23-2012, 05:02 AM

I started testing this again as I wanted to play a combo deck in modern that wasn't UR.

I of course started with 4 Edge of Autumns but soon cut down to 3, then to 2, and now I just hate them. Having done this about 2-3 different times when I picked up the deck earlier on I am almost convinced that cutting Edge of Autumn is completely right (As I have reached this conclusion of different occasions).

I still feel like this deck is fighting against too much. G1 will almost always be yours, but be prepared to face an uphill battle g2 and g3. Ancient Grudge, Spell Pierce, gy hate, Aven Mindsensor, discard, Engineered Explosives, Silence, Mind-Break Trap, and more come to greet you.

The main problem as I see it isn't fighting vs the hate, but figuring out vs which hate you are fighting against. By the time you have figured it out on g3 you face the dilemma of having a slightly worse match-up. I'm sure my sb could use a little bit of tuning because fighting versus all the cards I just mentioned is damned hard.

Mr. Safety

01-23-2012, 07:59 AM

I feel like you need your own maindeck Silences to make the deck happen.

Kanti

01-30-2012, 12:35 AM

I've been playing this deck religiously over the past few days and have made a lot of changes to my side-board as I realized my old plan sucked. The side-board needs discard spells so you can pro-actively defend yourself, as the hate is way too diversified in Modern.

2/2 split on discard is so you can hit Cryptic, Birthing Pod, and Twin. The 1 Vendetta is to take out hate-bears and doubles as Twin hate.

Since there is a LOT of Affinity and Twin in Modern I have decided to run the 4 specific hate-cards. It might be better to take out 1 Recall for a Nature's Claim as it would still be good vs Affinity but act as another out to Twin.

Edit: No, no, fuck Sleight of Hand. Ugh.

Technics

02-03-2013, 02:37 AM

So this won a Pro Tour just a little while back. Building this list for a PTQ and was looking for Sideboarding help.

Pretty much the standard maindeck+sideboard, so my first impressio is that it's perfectly fine, although with the meta shift due to the recent bans I don't know if it's going to be a viable deck. Things I would consider:

-Nihil Spellbomb over Grafdigger's Cage: I don't know if Cage being permanent will be usually relevant over Nihil's one activation, but the former is dead when comboing while the later is another (bad) egg.

-Bouncer mix: discard/counter + extirpate effect on Echoing Truth renders the deck unable to deal with any permanent based hate, but I don't know if that combination of hate will be common or even people will be aware of the power of this play.

-Grapeshot over Laboratory Maniac: I think there will be more times when Grapeshot will be relevant, like having to combo as long as possible without the graveyard to reach enough storm, than the other way around, like having drawn all the deck with no bounce and an untargeteable opponent.

One card that I will love to try is Grand Abolisher, which doubles as Silence and Pithing Needle, but double white could be problematic and the manabase will need to be adapted.

Anyway, I'm really interested in knowing how well you do and will love to have a report, as I have all the cards for this deck and I'm looking to replace my modern combo deck of choice, which was PiF, with either this or Splinter Twin, which I think that in a vacuum is a better deck but probably will have to face more maindeck disruption and sideboard hate.

JDK

02-03-2013, 11:44 AM

-Nihil Spellbomb over Grafdigger's Cage: I don't know if Cage being permanent will be usually relevant over Nihil's one activation, but the former is dead when comboing while the later is another (bad) egg.
Cage is for the Pod MU, where Nihil Spellbomb isn't nearly as relevant. So this slot comparison is kinda useless. :tongue:

Technics

02-03-2013, 10:55 PM

One card that I will love to try is Grand Abolisher, which doubles as Silence and Pithing Needle, but double white could be problematic and the manabase will need to be adapted.

I am a HUGE fan of Abolisher. However you are correct in that WW is rough. I'll look into it however, since with one down (and normally most creature hate gone) it's pretty much the ultimate protection.

Opaco

02-05-2013, 06:34 AM

Cage is for the Pod MU, where Nihil Spellbomb isn't nearly as relevant. So this slot comparison is kinda useless. :tongue:

Woooops, my bad, without GSZ in the format I looked at Cage as just as a way to diversify graveyard hate, completely forgot about Pod, which on top will probably be one of the most played decks in the new meta, so the cage deserves consideration, thanks to point it out.