Ikkyu wrote:No, but meditation is about altering one's conscious state in order to achieve a desired end.

No it's not, it's about NOT changing things and remaining in your natural state. The way we experience things now is about altering/changing. If you clean the dust from the mirror you find that the reflective surface was always there.

You're logic is flawed. If we are currently NOT in a natural state (e.g. enlightenment) and we wish to get there we must change our current state of mind into an enlightened state of mind. The key word here is CHANGE.

I think you are right in the sense that a lot of our bad mental habits change, and some of our views change through meditation. But meditation is not about creating a certain feeling or high, in the way that marijuana is. Since meditation is about observing our mind in it's natural state, marijuana is likely to make that a lot harder. You have a point about it being no different than going to a baseball game, and I imagine it's fairly hard to have your deepest meditation at a baseball game as well, but marijuana effects the mind even more directly than external stimuli. In my opinion, it creates a mindstate that can make it more difficult to see the mind in it's natural state. I think a great master could probably smoke marijuana and still see their natural state perfectly, but for the rest of us it's probably not so easy.

Ikkyu wrote:You're logic is flawed. If we are currently NOT in a natural state (e.g. enlightenment) and we wish to get there we must change our current state of mind into an enlightened state of mind. The key word here is CHANGE.

When there are clouds in front of the sun, the sun continues to shine, just because you cannot see it does not mean it's not there.

Last edited by Grigoris on Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

"My religion is not deceiving myself."Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Ikkyu wrote:You're logic is flawed. If we are currently NOT in a natural state (e.g. enlightenment) and we wish to get there we must change our current state of mind into an enlightened state of mind. The key word here is CHANGE.

When there are clouds in front of the sun, the sun continues to shine, just because you cannot see it does not mean it's not there.

I think the misunderstanding is that Ikkyu considers moving the clouds as changing the state of your mind, but Greg thinks that only changing the sun counts. Ikkyu, you might find in Buddhism (especially Vajrayana) that there are different levels we can think of with respect to the mind.

Ikkyu wrote:You're logic is flawed. If we are currently NOT in a natural state (e.g. enlightenment) and we wish to get there we must change our current state of mind into an enlightened state of mind. The key word here is CHANGE.

When there are clouds in front of the sun, the sun continues to shine, just because you cannot see it does not mean it's not there.

I think the misunderstanding is that Ikkyu considers moving the clouds as changing the state of your mind, but Greg thinks that only changing the sun counts. Ikkyu, you might find in Buddhism (especially Vajrayana) that there are different levels we can think of with respect to the mind.

Correct, in the Vajrayana traditions the clouds (emotions, thoughts, feelings, etc...) are merely adventitious, you don't have to change anything, you just have to release attachments to the temporary phenomena and relax. Relaxation is your natural state (the sun), tension is a construct. Not constructing is not an activity, it's not doing (changing) something, quite the contrary it is refraining from change. It is remaining in ones natural state.

"My religion is not deceiving myself."Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

All I know know from marijuana is that people think it doesn't have many side effects. The worst (if smoking in any amount to help pain) is laziness. It has a really bad habit of demotivating people. It makes you content with doing nothing.

DeepFriedFunk wrote:All I know know from marijuana is that people think it doesn't have many side effects. The worst (if smoking in any amount to help pain) is laziness. It has a really bad habit of demotivating people. It makes you content with doing nothing.

^^This.

Also: habitual use dulls the mind, and it makes you dumber. In Dave Chappelle's words, "You can function. You ain't crisp, but you can function." (I trust his testimony on this issue, as he's clearly speaking from deep and wide experience.) Mental fog is a serious obscuration. And why would anyone interested in learning intentionally cultivate a weaker short-term memory?

The point is that wake-and-bake is not conducive to Dharma practice, for these reasons. In fact, it's the opposite. I know a Dharma teacher who spent perhaps a decade attempting Zazen practice while using cannabis daily. His practice went nowhere. He gave up the weed, and he finally found his footing in simple seated practice. His advice was to leave the green alone.

I don't know if this correlates at all to Ikkyu's practice of using cannabis once/monthly (I'm not trying to criticize here).

Ikkyu wrote:You're logic is flawed. If we are currently NOT in a natural state (e.g. enlightenment) and we wish to get there we must change our current state of mind into an enlightened state of mind. The key word here is CHANGE.

When there are clouds in front of the sun, the sun continues to shine, just because you cannot see it does not mean it's not there.

But the clouds have to MOVE in order for the sun to be seen.

"Nothing can be known, not even this."
-- Arcesilaus (but I'm not sure)

DeepFriedFunk wrote:All I know know from marijuana is that people think it doesn't have many side effects. The worst (if smoking in any amount to help pain) is laziness. It has a really bad habit of demotivating people. It makes you content with doing nothing.

I actually become much more motivated to do productive things when I smoke. But that's beside the point. You can't generalize about things like this. People react in a myriad of different ways to Cannabis and other substances depending on their brain chemistry and psychological state.

"Nothing can be known, not even this."
-- Arcesilaus (but I'm not sure)

DeepFriedFunk wrote:All I know know from marijuana is that people think it doesn't have many side effects. The worst (if smoking in any amount to help pain) is laziness. It has a really bad habit of demotivating people. It makes you content with doing nothing.

^^This.

Also: habitual use dulls the mind, and it makes you dumber. In Dave Chappelle's words, "You can function. You ain't crisp, but you can function." (I trust his testimony on this issue, as he's clearly speaking from deep and wide experience.) Mental fog is a serious obscuration. And why would anyone interested in learning intentionally cultivate a weaker short-term memory?

The point is that wake-and-bake is not conducive to Dharma practice, for these reasons. In fact, it's the opposite. I know a Dharma teacher who spent perhaps a decade attempting Zazen practice while using cannabis daily. His practice went nowhere. He gave up the weed, and he finally found his footing in simple seated practice. His advice was to leave the green alone.

I don't know if this correlates at all to Ikkyu's practice of using cannabis once/monthly (I'm not trying to criticize here).

1. I never wake-and-bake.
2. I don't use this habitually. Only when it feels right. That's once a month maybe.
3. It may make you "dumber" on some levels, but it opens your mind on many more, There's a reason that the shamans and Shaivite sadhus use ganja. And it's not just to get high.

"Nothing can be known, not even this."
-- Arcesilaus (but I'm not sure)

Ikkyu wrote:But the clouds have to MOVE in order for the sun to be seen.

Clouds move/dissolve, that's their "nature". A simple meditation is to watch the formation of thoughts, recognising them as mind and then (since one does not enter into analysis/discrimination) just relaxing ones mind and (continuing to obsereve) watch the thoughts dissolve of their own accord. Then the next thought arises... They arise from nowhere and they go nowhere. Nothing to do, nothing to change.

This is not theory, this is personal experience. This is one of the sati techniques I have been teaching for years now.

"My religion is not deceiving myself."Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

DeepFriedFunk wrote:All I know know from marijuana is that people think it doesn't have many side effects. The worst (if smoking in any amount to help pain) is laziness. It has a really bad habit of demotivating people. It makes you content with doing nothing.

^^This.

Also: habitual use dulls the mind, and it makes you dumber. In Dave Chappelle's words, "You can function. You ain't crisp, but you can function." (I trust his testimony on this issue, as he's clearly speaking from deep and wide experience.) Mental fog is a serious obscuration. And why would anyone interested in learning intentionally cultivate a weaker short-term memory?

The point is that wake-and-bake is not conducive to Dharma practice, for these reasons. In fact, it's the opposite. I know a Dharma teacher who spent perhaps a decade attempting Zazen practice while using cannabis daily. His practice went nowhere. He gave up the weed, and he finally found his footing in simple seated practice. His advice was to leave the green alone.

I don't know if this correlates at all to Ikkyu's practice of using cannabis once/monthly (I'm not trying to criticize here).

1. I never wake-and-bake.
2. I don't use this habitually. Only when it feels right. That's once a month maybe.
3. It may make you "dumber" on some levels, but it opens your mind on many more, There's a reason that the shamans and Shaivite sadhus use ganja. And it's not just to get high.

And there is a reason why the Buddha rejected such shamanism. Why did he reject these practices?

Edit: I don''t know how this thread turned into recreational pot smoking is good/bad! I thought this was supposed to be about actual use of alternative medicine! People with actual medical conditions don't smoke pot to "get high". They use it because it's good alternative medicine for their body.

Last edited by seeker242 on Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

People disagree on this, but I'm skeptical of the position that cannabis use opens the mind. It alters the mind, certainly: but does it open one up to new, less restrictive ways of thinking and being? I think it opens onto other, equally restrictive ways of being. In short, it turns people who think like neurotics into people who think like stoners. If you're a tense individual, then it must be a great relief to relax, and cannabis will surely get you there. My point is rather that the mental states cannabis invokes are not, in my opinion, liberating. They're just different.

To Ikkyu's earlier question (perhaps rhetorical?), I don't know if spending an occasional evening with a bag of buds is better, worse or about the same than spending an evening at the movies or a game. I'd guess it's about the same, but perhaps a bit cheaper and, let's admit it, probably more fun. That said, I would really rather not give los Zetas another nickle, so I'd choose to stay at home and read Hegel & drink a dry ale or go watch a soccer match at the Mexican restaurant if I'm ready for a break, instead of smoking a joint. YMMV.

The problem is that people associate the experiences they have while being high with the high itself, and not their own mind. So instead of just having the experience and moving on, they go get high again and again and again seeking to recreate that experience. Any kind of insight a drug gives you, you could have had without drugs. The drug doesn't cause it, but it may well prevent it.

What opens the mind is introspection and self honesty. If you are introspective and honest with yourself, your mind can be opened in mundane life, on drugs, drunk, while having sex, and so forth. If you are not, then no amount of substances will cause you to open up. Either way the substances are besides the point, all experiences you have are generated by your mind because of your mind, and not because of the drug. Your belief in the need of drugs in order to achieve these insights is in fact only indicative of the limitations you impose on your own mind and its ability to produce insight without intoxication. In fact, you can have many profound insights without intoxication, and the most profound insights of all come when stone cold sober.