Very sad indeed to hear about this. What a tragedy. Not a suggestion... just a open question: is there a purpose to allowing comments at all on a post like this? Naturally everybody will feel sympathy for the victim's family but beyond that, what more is there to add.

This is only the last in a series of gun-related incidents recently. I'd very much like to see the police and the council taking a strategic, proactive role - actively engaging with the community, showing an increased presence on the streets and communicating with us about what the hell's going on. This area is usually overlooked by Lewisham Council and receives less political attention than it deserves, but these incidents mean that now is the time for our new local councillors AND Mayor Bullock to step up to the plate and show some leadership. If this thread is useful for anything, it should be to demonstrate local people's desire to see some better communication and action from the police and the council.

Cat has a bit if a point. As soon as you hear about these you always know it's a young black male, hense the need for operation trident. Something needs to be done to sort it out as it's going to only get worse!

cat man and paddydom ur ignorance astounds me but doesnt suprise me. is the black community a separate entity in brockley then? nothing to do with u? shrug- move on? not part of ur community? Well let me remind you of a few facts

the black community of our borough makes up over a third of the demographic and are 50yr+ established in the borough.

the death of a black man does not automatically mean a black on black crime (see Stephen Lawrence case and Macphearson report)

the death of a black man does not automatically mean that the victim was involved in crime (see too many recent cases to list)

There is a failing somewhere, I read that alot of black children grow up without a father figure as the men tend to go off and have many partners amoungst other issues. Broken Society indeed, after 13 yrs of labour offering state solutions it's time for abit of community self help - it affects everyone so get a grip!

Read the article - this terrible killing, and the previous two incidents in brockley is being looked at by trident 'the black on black' crime unit. It clearly has everything to do with the black community, maybe peoples failure to recognise this is why these terrible things are happening

How does someone making a comment based on factual evidence make them a racist? A black man killed, Operation Trident involved which by default alludes to black on black crime. Yes it's a crime that involve black people, no, this does not preclude the WHOLE community being involved in trying to stop the infitration of gang crime in the area. But lets not use political correctness gone mad to be afraid of making a factual statement.

However, I will say that broken marriages in the black community do not necessarily lead to a life of polygamy and crime. Just ask my two half-black daughters and my ex-husband who has been happily married to the same woman since we seperated. The socio-economics of the area are not based on race, they are based on education, upbringing and morals. I'll get off my soap box now as I have to go teach my daughter how to shop lift or else she'll end up being successful and becoming an accountant or something equally disatrous.

The constant suggestion that black on black crime, is the black community's problem is a big mistake. Hence the lack of success with Trident. The black 'community' does not exist beyond sharing similar skin colour. We are actually groups of communities, who often have nothing much in common. The problem is about disafected youths, and immature young men,who have access to weapons which were once difficult to get hold of. I work with young people, and the violent crime is high among white, and asian groups. Nothing wrong in stating the victim is black, but wild assumptions about ALL black people is racist. Would some of you feel less angry/threaten, if it were a white boy found dead? I'm guessing (hoping)the answer is No.

The reason for setting up the trident unit was to combat a specific issue: I.e black on black gang related crime. I have no idea what they do as I'm not a police man, but it was specifically set up to combat intra-black community issues.

I find it funny when a good black friend of mine who visits me talks about his experience of brockley being rough (he grew up here and on a recent visit was pushed about at the station) however I have never witnessed or been a victim of crime here. My own experience backs up the issue that this seems to be more prevalent in the black community , who are both the victims and the oppressors

If catman is so out of order then why is it the "black on black gun crime unit" investigating this? Why not the "socioeconomically deprived on the socioeconomically deprived guncrime unit" then? Maybe there shouldnt be an 'operation trident' or any kind of police unit that concentrates on any specific sector of the community at all?

Im not saying I agree with catman, but I do agree with his right to voice that people shouldnt be dying in Brockley like this. Some people may be poor and from broken homes but when did this become an explanation of how one human being can take another's life so pointlessly.

Sadly, I dont think being appalled by people's apparent ignorance while secretly hoping the appropriate funds have been diverted to a magical law enforcement unit is going to get this tragic situation sorted. Maybe its time for less guilt and censorship and more ideas.

I'm not pointing the finger at any particular group and we all share responsibility for this, but it is clear that this seems to be related more to certain communities - who do you think pays for the trident police scheme? The taxpayer - that means all of us, including me. I havnt complained about paying higher taxes for this, so I fail to see your point

How dare you call me racist anon you fool. The constant sticking your head in the sand to avoid being "racist" (or in my case stating a fact) is the reason so many obvious problems like this don't get fixed. In northern Ireland where I am from we refer to problems in the "catholic community" and "Protestant community" and we don't cry about it. So why can't I refer to the black Afro carribean community without the bloody R word being thrown around as usual? Regardless of my choice of vocabulary there is a serious issue within the Afro carrabean communities in London whereby many of the young males are not being brought up properly. And if anyone calla me racist for saying that then please look up the meaning of the word. Cretins.

Trident is failing - badly for the reasons articulately stated by Solo Act

"The constant suggestion that black on black crime, is the black community's problem is a big mistake. Hence the lack of success with Trident. The black 'community' does not exist beyond sharing similar skin colour. We are actually groups of communities, who often have nothing much in common."

I would go further...The assumption by the police is the same as Cat-Mans and it begins with the racist assumption that all black people are the same, think the same, act the same and it was on that basis that Trident was formed. All knife/gun crimes with a black victim are automatically investigated by trident. Although, it can hardly be sensible to follow the lead of those with their own poor track record http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/mar/10/racism-police-stop-search

I will also add that i am a 40+ crofton park born and bred black woman who has never directly experienced crime in Brockley

I have seen a gun - Three years I cycled past two white boys who were posing with one in Ladywell Park. Terrified i reported it to the police who turned up 30 mins later and failed to catch them.

This sort of crime is a tragedy for ALL in the community. How dare you -CAt Man- sideline this to this problem to one section of the community- dont care how many "good black friends" you have. You are a dinosaur and a racist one at that.

paddyom - there is no such thing as a "black afro carribean community" u MIGHT be referring to the African Carribean community but few of us black people accept that grouping as it fails to recognise that most of the young people involved in these acts are born and bred here, are 3/4 th generation and have never been to somalia/barbados/nigeria/(fill in the 100+ other countries this covers)

I made the assertion that trident was formed to set up specific issues between certain 'communities' who happen to be black, specifically to do with cultural differences and attitudes creating conflict between the black ethnic sub-groups who have settled here and made the uk their home. I think it's a fair point and from my own experiences and national statistics it is clear that it is an important issue.

These people deny the problem exists but have failed to prevent these kind of 'gang' shootings and seem to be content to blame the problem on people who are far removed from their community - all of a sudden it's 'our' problem but they are very quick to demand 'their' rights ( such as that advocated by harriot harmen proposing a law for preferential treatment in the job Market for ethnic minorities)

Bollocks to this stuff about the 'Afro-Caribbean community'. We are ALL part of the SAME communtiy - the BROCKLEY community.

I've never understood the rationale for Operation Trident, beyond a very narrow role addressing a specific gang/network. It seems as though ALL gun crime that happens to involve black people is lumped into the same box, and I question whether this is useful or helpful.

Thank you for your delightful response. I take it from your personal insights that there IS a "catholic community" and a "protestant community" in NI. I am sure little was gained from this approach and I would argue that there were many tears over the years of the 'troubles' in NI.

My point about Brockley is that to refer to a broad and diverse group of people by grouping us all together on the basis of our skin colour and then suggesting that gun crime is our problem IS RACIST

Cat man, by using the phrase "these people" tells us everything we need to know about your attitude to those around you. Some of the new folk on here haven't seen you in full spittle spraying flow - guys this is NOTHING

I do think there's a risk of PC gone mad here. Kate, I really don't see a problem with talking about the Afro-Caribbean community. It's not a bad thing! A community to me implies a supportive network of people who share something in common. Yes we're all a part of the wider community of Brockley but within that there's absolutely nothing wrong with there being smaller communities. Gay, Polish, doggers, knitters, whatever. Yes we all enjoy the diversity of this area but it's human nature to be drawn to people with whom you have something in common as well as seeking and encouraging diversity.

Yes, anon, and in that context it's fluffy and lovely. But in this context, it's about blame-shifting. I could go on about orientalism and the concept of 'the other' but you'll be glad to hear that I'm not going to. Suffice to say that in cases such as this shooting incident (and previous ones), the whole Brockley community needs to get involved in asking: what went wrong here? What can we do about it?Rather than saying, 'Well, it's the 'Afro-Caribbean community', what do you expect?!' which is definitely the tone which some people on this site - and, regrettably, some local politicians in previous incidents - have taken.

And we ARE asking those questions on this very site. There's no point denying that the black community has issues. That's not to say that other communities don't have issues that need addressing as well. It is a fact that black boys do worse at school than any other group, that there are more black children in 1 parent families, etc etc. it would be naive to suggest that that doesn't have some kind of knock-on effect in society as a whole. Although trident appears to have been ineffectual, I don't see anything inherently wrong with identifying a group within our society that has issues and trying to address them. It doesn't mean that those issues aren't just as prevalent in other groups or communities.

...actually, you will find that White working class boys are performing the worst in schools, it's the new inequality after 13 yrs of focus on women, gays, ethinic minorities.

But anyway, I agree with the broader point - all communities have issues, but what annoys me is that certain people seem to blame others first without looking at their own faults. It takes two to tango...

Don't get blindsided by race. Yes it is black people involved but it is not their 'blackness'; their race that has caused them to participate in gun crime. That should be obvious to intelligent people.

When the Kray and the Richardson gangs who killing each other across London that was no more to do with race than this is.

The minute you start to generalise, you create a group which can take offense at the generalisation - young/black/poor etc.

BUT - doesn't any measure to prevent crime involve sterotypying of some sort? Either we accept that, in order to use resources most effectively,it is necessary to make generalisations and classifications, or we respond to crime on a purely reactive basis and don't bother to try to prevent crime other than in the most general way.

God this is another shooting in our area of Brockley, that seems as always to get loads of comments good or bad.dont forget the Brockley Max festival is on now which does all thats good about the area.

I think it would be best to pause for a moment and remember that a young man has been murdered in the heart of our community, that his friends and his family are grieiving. It is possible - though by no means certain - that the victim was no angel, but even if he was involved in crime it is still a tragic waste of life.

The mention of Operation Trident tends to prompt a number of stock responses, but generally it allows many white people to think 'it's got nothing to do with us, you've got nothing to worry about unless you're involved in gangs' etc. Tell that to the guy shot sunbathing on London Fields last week. And there have been many instances of people being shot and stabbed for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, not because they were personally involved in gangs.

More to the point, if you live in an area for a while you will soon realize that it is an illusion that you can live in a bubble. The 'community' may be partially fractured by class, ethnicity etc. but we all walk the same streets and for the most part our children go to the same schools. I have seen children grow up from coming to my kids birthday parties to getting involved in gangs and crime and it's very sad. And given that my kids still know them, I obviously worry about what would happen if they happened to be talking to them when somebody decided to take a shot at them.

I don't have any immediate solutions - the postive alllure of gangs is very strong, heavy policing can just add to the spiral of gang identification - but it is something the whole community needs to be involved in thinking about.

It is very sobering to think that a life that might have continued for another 50 or 60 years has been snuffed out by the pulling of a trigger - all the things he might have done and will now never get the chance. An utter waste and very very sad, regardless of whatever lifestyle he was leading.

Yes I do know of people who are in gangs, as would anybody who has had any involvement with young people in South London. Judging by how many times these people have been arrested, the police are already full aware of them, as are schools, youth services and many other agencies. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to be enough to stop shootings (not that everybody involved in gangs is involved in shooting, nor are all murders gang related).

But as I recall it even the wealthy family had problems. How your childen turn out has to be a lot to do with luck, their personality and your own good attitude. Helps if you can see the glass (in the old cliche) as half full even when it is three-quarters empty. A memory has stuck with me for years of an unfailingly cheerful legal aid client whose finances I simply boggled at. She was getting by on next to nothing but her children were well and happy.

Steady on, Westsider. 'Massively overstated' suggests Transpontine has been indulging in some Daily Mail type hysteria. Quite the opposite, in fact, and your one piece of anecdotal evidence doesn't demonstrate anything other than that it's not literally true to say that 'anyone' who deals with kids knows kids who are in gangs (though you may do so without being aware of it, of course).

So someone gets shot and dies in the centre of Brockley, and Catman thinks it's nothing to do with him or his community? It's a disgusting attitude, when even someone dying doesn't make you think before you post.Btw, the statement that 'White working class boys are performing the worst in schools' is not true. White boys in receipt of free school meals are one of the worst perfuming groups but being on free school meals is not necessarily an indicator of 'class' and in the same way being 'working class' doesn't mean that you are getting benefits and therefore on free school meals. The actual number of White boys on FSM in Lewisham is comparatively small to other FSM groups.I also feel that often on this site the only times that Black people are mentioned is in a negative way - the majority of Black young people in Lewisham are at the least the same as every other teenager and there are many who are incredible, they volunteer, they run after school clubs, they try and act as role models for younger kids, they have aspirations to do well in school and go to university - The BME population in Lewisham schools is around 60-70%. When generalisations are made about young Black people, you're making an assumption about a majority group not a small isolated community...

Catman, you post quite frequently on here and just occasionally you say something sensible.

Sadly, this is not one of those occasions. You are racist - I'm sure you honestly believe you aren't, but you really are, with your terrible 'us' and 'them' attitude towards 'ethnic minorities'. You'd be rightly horrified if someone made the same sort of statements in relation to gay people. Putting people into neat little categories just doesn't work.

It's comforting at least that you appear to be in such a small minority with your views and that you are consistently pilloried for them.

Catman, you post quite frequently on here and just occasionally you say something sensible.

Sadly, this is not one of those occasions. You are racist - I'm sure you honestly believe you aren't, but you really are, with your terrible 'us' and 'them' attitude towards 'ethnic minorities'. You'd be rightly horrified if someone made the same sort of statements in relation to gay people. Putting people into neat little categories just doesn't work.

It's comforting at least that you appear to be in such a small minority with your views and that you are consistently pilloried for them.

@Depressed - I agree with many of your points, but with regards to black people's representation on Brockley Central, I'd like to point out that with regards to the articles themselves, much of what we try to promote on Brockley Central - from the Brockley MAX to the Summmer Fayre, from the Brockley Cross Action Group to the Deptford music studio project - is the work of people from a range of different ethnic backgrounds.

you just can't see it can you? Every utterence of yours, from the daft questioning of whether jerk chicken should be allowed at a fayre to your iluminating use of the phrase 'these people' shows that you'd rather black people were not here and are somehow not to be trusted. You're not very bright, thats clear. Do yourself a favour and stop drawing attention to it.

This is extremely sad and my sympathy goes out to the family of Matthew Clement. I am also sad this post has taken the tone it has, with some people using 'less than sensitive' language to explain themselves. Gun crime is an issue among many communities in different parts of London- whites/Turks/blacks/Eastern Europeans blah blah. In Brockley over the past weeks, this HAS been centred around a few young black men. We shouldn't be afraid to say this- something is going wrong in our neighbourhood, and we all want it sorted. We ALL want this to stop, and we ALL want people to be safe. I do not feel this area is as segregated as some of these comments imply. I have lived here for 14 years, and think this is one of the most happily integrated places in London. We need to get guns off our streets, and look at WHY this is happening, and what can be done about it.Dianne Abbott makes interesting points her recent Commons speech about her constituency in Hackney - http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200910/cmhansrd/cm100406/halltext/100406h0001.htmHer points on education and opportunity ring very true to me. Many young people are going off the rails. Gun crime is up. Young men are the likely victims- I don't care what colour these people are, but I do care that people are being hurt. We must all unite as a community to express our sadness and and despair at the pointless loss of another young life.

It may be that nobody in your football team has any involvment in gangs, so keep up the good work!

I don't want to overstate the problem; out of the unscientific sample of a two-form year group in a popular local primary school, I am aware of two boys who have ended up in gangs. But my general point is that certainly secondary schools and the youth service are very aware that some of their kids are involved. And more to the point, if it is not our own kids, it is our friends and neighbours kids who are so involved, or kids who are known to our own kids through school. So it is not some distant thing that only impacts on us when police tape off the street.

The gang phenomenon is complicated. Most people do not join and immediately become involved in an armed criminal enterprise. People get involved for different reasons - sometimes for protection, sometimes for misguided loyalty to friends. They may then get involved in various dodgy business, but not everyone gets involved in shooting people or serious crime. But clearly there is a link between gangs, drug dealing and gun crime.

@transportine - No sorry I do not think that people joining gangs can be justified.

Joining gangs for protection or layalty to friends? You must be joking!

and then getting involved in dodgy business but not gun crime as if it was almost ok.

Smart kids go to school and then university, have a family and a job. That is why taxpayers pay for free housing, free schools, free health care, free policing for those who cannot afford it.

Brockley is not a slum in an emerging country where these services are not available and gangs may be justified as a form of protection and survival. In the UK, London zone 2, I would say this is rubbish.

@ Anon - at no point was Transportine justifying gangs - just stating how she saw it! And the reality is that if you are in any way engaged in the community in Brockley you will never be far removed from someone who knows someone in a gang. And this is especially so if you have children attending local schools.

anon@11.03 We shouldn't be too judgmental. None of us can be completely sure we would have refused to join a gang if we were in their shoes, as we have no idea what types of pressure may have been brought to bear. For gang members who haven't got decent family support (and an area doesn't need to be a slum to have plenty of those) it may be the closest thing they have to a family.

As for saying that smart kids go to school and university - yes, but it's an awful lot easier if your home environment and the classroom promotes the sorts of ambitions you refer to - what if there's nowhere quiet to do your homework, what if you get ridiculed for trying to listen in class or for getting good marks?

How many 13 year olds act rationally? When I was that age being accepted by my peers was THE most important thing, same for any youth tribe from goths, punks, skinheads... I could go on? Being young and stupid is hardley new but at that age you can influence and perhaps stop taking a sinister path. Transpontine was not supporting it, he understands it - two entirely different things

@Mb Being young and stupid is a priviledge of kids in rich western society. Ask a 10 years old diamond digger in central africa if he has time to be young and stupid.Perhaps this is one of the reasons why recent statistics show that half of the places in UK universities are taken by overseas students from far less priviledge societies while GCSEs scores of kids in the UK continue in a negative trend.

What a fatuous comment. For a start GCSE results have gone up every year for 20 years, (this could be to do with grade inflation, but different argument). Not every child in the developing world is stuck in child labour either. The reason why we have lots of foreign students is down to the abundance of university places and the prestige of studying in the UK, the cost of the fees mean that only wealthy families can afford it, so hardly the less privileged.

Rich nations also have obesity, depression, anorexia and a host of other 'western diseases'. What do you want to do, live in Medieval England I suppose?

Brockley now has its own turf war - with fatal consequences for a young man. This has been flaring up regularly for too long. I heard today about 6 recent stabbings in Brockley, although this may have been an exageration. Strikes me we need a public meeting rather than another appeal - which does not reassure. This is a community issue and the community needs some answers - Councillors, Safer Neighbourhood Group?