With Pluto in 7th there has been an "evolutionary lesson of objectivity versus subjectivity" and this has come about through the soul entering the socialized world of relationships, becoming exposed to "many different value systems, intellectual systems, emotional patterns and spiritual beliefs" (JWG, Pluto 1 p.131). They have been learning how to relate, participate, and listen within relationships as well as how to understand their own core self in relationship to the beliefs and experiences of others. This aspect connects strongly with having a South Node in 9th as they have a strong need to have understanding of larger forces and believe in some sort of metaphysical/cosmological system, as well as an ability to know things intuitively- this can play out in different ways as they may be born into a culture or place that has a prevalent metaphysical and cosmological belief structure that they resonate with or they may be born somewhere that has dominant metaphysical and cosmological beliefs that go against their intuitive knowing. With a South Node of Moon in 9th they will have internal security tied into their sense of a belief system, so with the Pluto 7th at times they could attempt to assert their belief system upon other people without consideration for the needs of the other person, in order to feel secure in the validity of their belief system, and in a different pattern a Pluto in 7th could become influenced to follow the belief system of a powerful person in relationship to gain greater internal security, in this case take on the security that comes from following this other person's belief system.

As we've already discussed teachers and gurus with the 3rd/9th axis, this makes perfect sense. Someone with this signature could give their power away to a guru or powerful teacher and take on their belief system as part of their own, not because it is being self-initiated out of their own experiences and growth, but because they can gain a sense of security for themselves through following the belief system of a powerful figure who may appear to possess the socialized and internal security they desire. The flip side being this same signature could be applied to someone who was the powerful teacher or guru able to influence the belief systems of others around them. Since South Node of Moon in 9th people can possess the power of vision, they could have had a vision that made an impact on others and changed their lives, not so much because it was truly serving the needs of the true evolutionary path for that person, but more so because of a self-fulfilling prophecy process of having a strong vision that others start envisioning, so the vision ends up occurring through the focusing of that energy. In this way the Pluto in 7th person could have manipulated others into following a belief system that wasn't truly connected with the needs of the other people- it was ultimately in the end about serving the needs of the Pluto in 7th person gaining the relational power of having their South Node of Moon in 9th belief system validated by others.

When someone with this signature is born into a culture with a metaphysical or cosmological system they can resonate with, they will be able to form relationships with other people who share a common belief system with them fairly easily. When someone is born into a culture in which they initially do not feel intuitively connected with the dominant belief system around them, they could more easily experience alienation. Because the South Node of Moon in 9th is functioning so intuitively, they may not even understand why they feel the way they do, or where the feeling is coming from as to why they do not resonate with the belief system so many others are outwardly expressing approval toward. This can just further lead to a sense of alienation. With the Pluto in 7th, once they begin to find other people, perhaps less dominant cultures or communities within the same larger culture or community, they could become overly attached to these groups and gain a lot of Pluto in 7th relational security through being in relationship with others who share their South Node of Moon in 9th metaphysical belief system.

However, just as the Pluto polarity point of Aries or 1st to the Pluto in 7th or Libra is not really about becoming a loner, neither is the 3rd/Gemini polarity point to the 9th/Sagitarius about becoming an alienated loner passionately believing in their dear cosmological system against all odds. The movement to the polarity point of the 1st (which is about fulfilling their own core needs instead of the expectations of others as well as gaining the ability to self-initiate their individuality) happens along with the movement to the polarity point of the North Node of the Moon in the 3rd House (which is about learning that their cherished metaphysical system is relative, just one version of a path to truth). Really, I don't see how the pluto polarity point could thus occur by being a total loner- one would have to be interacting with others in order to experience the intellectual confrontations that help expose their belief system as being one relative version of reality as well as gaining the core security that would come from being able to communicate their belief system in a manner that can be understood by other people.

With regards to the example of a powerful teacher or guru, this would mean the person with this signature could again be a teacher this lifetime, but through experiences would gain the 1st house polarity point security of not needing to convert others to their metaphysical belief system. They will have fulfilled in part their South Node of the Moon need of finding larger metaphysical understanding, but perhaps through intellectual confrontations with others or other means, they will have discovered that this ultimate truth is so large that there are multitudes of paths that on an intuitive level they can sense the interconnections- so much so that it is no longer important to them if others believe the exact same thing that they do. As a teacher, they can learn the 3rd house ability to find the right words to get through to students so that they can understand the concepts of their metaphysical system, as well as the ability to focus on the immediate physical environment of social cues to deliver their message in a way that will get through. However, this is not done in a manner aimed at manipulating the other person or trying to convert them that the metaphysical system is the system the other person must believe in- it is done more in the manner of presenting the wisdom they have to offer. I recently saw some Tibetan Monks doing sand mandala art and it makes me think of the symbolic gesture of creating such an intricate design structure and then releasing it to the universe with nonattachment in a way but also in a way of intentionally offering the inherent wisdom of the form presented...

In the case of someone with this signature falling under the influence of a powerful teacher who influences them into believing a metaphysical system that is not truly resonant with their path and growth, addressing some of the immediate physical environment issues of the 3rd House polarity point could help steer them away and toward a cosmological system that is more truly resonant to their path, going along with addressing the 1st house Pluto polarity point. So they could come into conflict with others in their immediate environment who have a belief system that is different, as the contradictions and contrasts become illuminated, since the belief system of the teacher they are following is not truly resonant, they will sense the relative truth of the contrasting belief system and begin to realize the relativity of various metaphysical systems. Through 3rd house types of relationships and conversations, they could begin to research and self-initiate curiosity in a 1st house pluto polarity way toward discovering new information, about other cosmological systems, eventually finding one that is more truly resonant with their path. Perhaps they could also at some point use more logical arguments or thinking, or a questioning technique with the teacher that helps them realize there is a more resonant cosmological system out there for them to follow.

In addition, in case the person has felt alienated from the culture around them and have a strong intuitive sense of understanding that is in contrast to how so many others around them seem to be understanding things- in this case, the movement to the 1st house polarity point would occur while fulfilling their core needs associated with their belief system without being concerned about the expectations of others- so this would not mean not communicating, it would mean communicating- finding a way to communicate their message so that others can understand them, taking the risk to speak out with this message despite the expectations of others around them. Instead of sealing themselves off in isolation and alienation, they can instead find a way to spread their message so that others can understand them, and perhaps make the choice to see things the way they see them or not- but the evolutionary point being that the person with this signature has taken the self-initiation to act on their core belief needs and communicate their message in way that others can understand.

Also, in case this sense of alienation has led them to hold on to their belief structure in an even more rigid fashion, and having their relational security needs of their 7th House Pluto dependent upon it, they will need to learn through 3rd house interactions with others in their immediate environment that there are many other perspectives, and through maintaining and self-initiating into these interactions over time, learning how to be a better listener and listening to the true needs of the other person in the relationship or interaction, they will begin to see how they can let go of their over attachment to their belief system and not be so defensive about it or become so upset when others do not believe it or follow it. In fact, with a 7th house Pluto, perhaps it is more inevitable that such a person would form key intimate relationships with people from vastly different backgrounds or belief systems that through the 7th House Pluto relational dynamic bond, they would be more likely forced to confront these and then if facing their Pluto polarity point, they would learn how to listen better to the needs of their partner and realize more of the relativity of their own belief systems as a result.

Overlap isn't a problem at all. Also many, including myself find it most conducive to not read what other people wrote until having posted first.Great, and thank you, I'll do it again here

With a SN in the 9th house and Pluto in the 7th, this soul has in the past primarily sought out relationships that have provided it with more cosmological-philosophical knowingness. In the consensus state, this could obviously manifest as a rigid clinging to a religious group. There's been a tendency to seek the approval and affirmations of others, a spiritual teacher for example, perhaps through philosophical discourse.

And on the flip side, the soul has avoided relationships with others who've symbolized some sort of philosophy incongruent with that by which it has found security (including one that invalidates the 9th house perception in general). And quite possibly, this soul has avoided expressing its direct experience of natural law/truth due to the unconscious gravitation to 'fitting in'. In any case, the underlying desire has been to gain self awareness through relationships with 'other'.

All beautifully said.

With a 9th house south node, the orientation to listening/feedback has been primarily based on intuition and feeling,

Intuition and feeling are not the same. Feeling is Venus, Taurus, second houseThank you. I’ve had a tough time Geminizing and articulating such differences in my head…my chart's 50% Sag! This is very helpful and applicable for me, both personally and with EA.

rather than a mercurial left-brain process. Being identified with the intuitive search and direct knowing of natural law, to the point of missing social cues and the 'here and now' details, this soul has often struggled with effectively communicating to others in a way that meets them on their own (perhaps more left-brained) terms. There's also been a tendency to rely on intuition, blindly negating information to the contrary.

Some lessons for the soul in this life will involve learning how to learn from others - humbling oneself and learning how to integrate new information without needing to compulsively consult the inner 'but why?'. There's an obvious 7th house application here. By moving beyond the need to understand the 'greater' truths, this soul will be getting into its body

The need for "getting into its body" is not implied here. If the nn was in Virgo then something like that would be applicable.Yea, perhaps a better way to put it would be ‘getting into its surroundings’(?)…I had in mind the Sag-ness of being ‘in its head’, wrapped up in the search for ‘higher’ understanding. But after re-reading some stuff, I realized that I’m projecting a bit of the Pisces-Virgo axis onto this, and being reminded that Sag-Gemini is about mind, not body or feeling, etc.

and actually aligning with natural law, becoming present with the 'here and now' smallness of its humanity, rather than remaining in its head and finding security in the gaining of more objective truth (a neverending expansion!).

To me, this 'aligning' with the 'here and now' has a very Aries/1st essence to it, albeit on the level of mind/3rd rather than instinct/1st.

It'll be both - since the 3rd house activates the 1st house polarity point. If you wish, elaborate on how the third house nn activates the polarity point.(I actually felt uncomfortable with this part…dodged it a bit, to be honest) Let’s see. If we put it in terms of relationships, and the compulsion to manifest a teacher/student dynamic (9th) with others (7th), we could say that in releasing this need, the soul is learning to be a student of life in general, to hear what its environment is mirroring back, to learn (3rd) on its own (1st)...and vice versa (where there's resistance).

In becoming a student of life's continually flowing and changing information feedback loop, this soul is learning that 'all of life can be understood according to logical rules' (citing AM's book), and that there are plenty of ways to understand 'what is' on the level of the left brain...and that's exciting! Learning adoptability to various microcultures and other ways of thinking will be a big lesson here. By sticking with particular areas of focus in the 'here and now' (contrasted with the 9th house's tendency to get wrapped up in some grand intuited vision), to a level of actual accomplishment,

Accomplishment isn't implied here - rather the intention is to realize that there is always more information and perspectives for anything.

I will have to change that part in my book as I feel it is not accurate. Within the Gemini archetype it is not true to say that ALL of life can be understood via logical rules - rather there are always more ways to study the environment and create classifications for phenomenal reality. Phenomenal reality itself, by the way, is Sagittarius.I ‘got’ the essence of what you said in the book, but perhaps editing that part couldn’t hurt. About the lack of accomplishment (shadow of Sag), I was referencing the ‘Integrity and honesty’ section in your book, as it’s manifested in my life. I was thinking more about the essence of accomplishment, which comes in embracing the Gemini polarity of learning (rather than what can be directly known through Sag)…not that an accomplishment is necessarily implied by the 9th-to-3rd intention here. If I’m missing something, I’m all ears.“Phenomenal reality is Sag” – can you say more? In my mind, I was correlating the Sag polarity with ‘isness’ and the Gemini polarity with the phenomena arising from that isness. I suppose they’re one and the same, and Sag-Gemini represents the two aspects/ways of knowing it…? Sorry if confusing…thank you!!

this soul could be an amazing astrologer, metaphysician, author, or speaker. A keen, tactful mind on the level of phenomena (3rd house) can give way to a true enjoyment of and relationship with all things phenomenal.

I'm also feeling that the objectivity of the 9th house and 7th house fit together in the same way that the subjectivity of the 3rd house and 1st house do. The 9th house orientation ultimately leads to a noumenal philosophy of Oneness, whereas the 3rd house orientation focuses more on the phenomenal information of apparent individuality. In a similar fashion, the 7th house orientation has to do with relationship (oneness)

whereas the 1st house orientation has to do with self-initiated direction (individuality). With these similarities in mind, I'm able to feel how this 3rd house NN movement will activate 1st house PPP evolution at the unconscious level.

I invite you to flesh that out some more...Fleshing out’s a weak spot! Rather than make correlations between 1st/3rd and 7th/9th, I think I’ll stick with Pluto as the bottom line. I made an attempt, but couldn’t really get anywhere with it…at least not in words. One idea regarding resistance that I want to mention is: with a 3rd house shadow in mind, this soul may cling to ‘safe’ pseudo-intellectual-cerebral relationships (7th) in which 1st house integration is resisted.

Hi Ari, Hi Everybody,I hope it is ok for any body to answer other peoples questions put by Ari,Hi Tory, i hope you do not mind if i also participate in answering Ari´s question in your mb message, thank you,

How does SN in the 9th potentially function as a way of resisting evolution:This can happen when the 9 house SN has not found any meaningful philosophy, ideology or religion that he resonates to because he has his own beliefs, ideologies and philosophy of Universal truth and feels totally alienated to the world that he was born into. He will find philosophical explanations / excuses to himself that explain his alienation towards the society he is living in. He may wonder around endlessly trying to find something that is never found or he may simply isolate himself and only relate to few others who share the same point of view, but by refusing to socialize and participate in his society he is becoming cristalised within his own ideologies and beliefs and his evolutionary intent cannot proceed.

This is true in so far as it can relate to a sn in the 9th house, however you have not related it to Pluto. When we talk about a soul's resistance to evolution it is always going to be relevant to Pluto. And since the desires of the soul have been played out THROUGH the sn, we have to read Pluto and the sn together, in context, not separate.

When 9th house SN learns the N3rd house polarity point evolutionary lesson which is to learn to speak out meaninfully his ideologies about the world to others, he will have succeeded to remove the block that had previously prevented him from being understood by others.

You are right about 3rd house relating to being able to communicate in a way that can be understood by others since 3rd house relates to logic and language, not a belief system. However I want to make sure it's clear that 3rd house itself does not relate to ideologies. 3rd house is about classifying and giving names to all and any aspect of reality.

Now he will be able to comunicate to others either through teaching, preaching, writting or verbally speaking and be understood by others when he shares his ideologies and views to the ordinary person.

Along the way he may have been all his life an agnostic and once he could make others understand him he may have found a tribe or a small comunity that share his beleifs, that he joins and becomes part of it.

There is no way to know this with the signatures we are working with.

~~~

Hi Ari, i did not fully understand the question that is why the submission / dominant was not referred in my answer, thank you for your commentblessings rita

You seem to understand the meaning of the nodes and the principal of polarity in general. I feel the next step for you is to practice applying it all to back Pluto, desire. So if you'd like, give a shot at exploring first just the connection between the sn and Pluto. I recommend doing it this way for now - to take it step by step and to ask any questions that you need to.

What was it you didn't understand about my question regarding dominance and submission within relationships?With love,Ari Moshe

With Pluto in 7th there has been an "evolutionary lesson of objectivity versus subjectivity" and this has come about through the soul entering the socialized world of relationships, becoming exposed to "many different value systems, intellectual systems, emotional patterns and spiritual beliefs" (JWG, Pluto 1 p.131). They have been learning how to relate, participate, and listen within relationships as well as how to understand their own core self in relationship to the beliefs and experiences of others. This aspect connects strongly with having a South Node in 9th as they have a strong need to have understanding of larger forces and believe in some sort of metaphysical/cosmological system, as well as an ability to know things intuitively- this can play out in different ways as they may be born into a culture or place that has a prevalent metaphysical and cosmological belief structure that they resonate with or they may be born somewhere that has dominant metaphysical and cosmological beliefs that go against their intuitive knowing.

With a South Node of Moon in 9th they will have internal security tied into their sense of a belief system, so with the Pluto 7th at times they could attempt to assert their belief system upon other people without consideration for the needs of the other person, in order to feel secure in the validity of their belief system, and in a different pattern a Pluto in 7th could become influenced to follow the belief system of a powerful person in relationship to gain greater internal security, in this case take on the security that comes from following this other person's belief system.

Excellent

As we've already discussed teachers and gurus with the 3rd/9th axis, this makes perfect sense. Someone with this signature could give their power away to a guru or powerful teacher and take on their belief system as part of their own, not because it is being self-initiated out of their own experiences and growth, but because they can gain a sense of security for themselves through following the belief system of a powerful figure who may appear to possess the socialized and internal security they desire. The flip side being this same signature could be applied to someone who was the powerful teacher or guru able to influence the belief systems of others around them. Since South Node of Moon in 9th people can possess the power of vision, they could have had a vision that made an impact on others and changed their lives, not so much because it was truly serving the needs of the true evolutionary path for that person, but more so because of a self-fulfilling prophecy process of having a strong vision that others start envisioning, so the vision ends up occurring through the focusing of that energy.

In this way the Pluto in 7th person could have manipulated others into following a belief system that wasn't truly connected with the needs of the other people- it was ultimately in the end about serving the needs of the Pluto in 7th person gaining the relational power of having their South Node of Moon in 9th belief system validated by others.

Right. I want to remind everyone: since we're dealing with core unconscious security needs linked to the 7th house this will imply some compulsive need to be liked, to be depended upon, or needed by others.

This is why Pluto ANYWHERE can be manipulative: bc we are forming a relationship, or creating a relationship to someone/something and yet if we do not use that relationship to look inside, then we can form a dependency to that relationship so that we ":get" what we feel we don't have through that relationship. This sets up karma and imbalanced power dynamics - including and especially the dichotomy of attraction and repulsion.

In this case we can see the possibility for this soul making itself attractive and useful to others through it's ability to understand things (9th house). However when it's manipulative patterns to create dependencies do not work - ie the soul is no longer believable by the students or by the partner, and thus is not being depended upon as a teacher or counselor, then the "aversion/repulsion" dynamic might turn on. "I crave" and "I detest" are two fascinating sides of the same coin.

When someone with this signature is born into a culture with a metaphysical or cosmological system they can resonate with, they will be able to form relationships with other people who share a common belief system with them fairly easily. When someone is born into a culture in which they initially do not feel intuitively connected with the dominant belief system around them, they could more easily experience alienation. Because the South Node of Moon in 9th is functioning so intuitively, they may not even understand why they feel the way they do, or where the feeling is coming from as to why they do not resonate with the belief system so many others are outwardly expressing approval toward. This can just further lead to a sense of alienation.

With the Pluto in 7th, once they begin to find other people, perhaps less dominant cultures or communities within the same larger culture or community, they could become overly attached to these groups and gain a lot of Pluto in 7th relational security through being in relationship with others who share their South Node of Moon in 9th metaphysical belief system.

What you wrote would be specifically relevant to an 11th Pluto and yet it does resonate in a general way with the 7th house because it carries the same social/relationship theme (natural trine).

However, just as the Pluto polarity point of Aries or 1st to the Pluto in 7th or Libra is not really about becoming a loner, neither is the 3rd/Gemini polarity point to the 9th/Sagitarius about becoming an alienated loner passionately believing in their dear cosmological system against all odds. The movement to the polarity point of the 1st (which is about fulfilling their own core needs instead of the expectations of others as well as gaining the ability to self-initiate their individuality) happens along with the movement to the polarity point of the North Node of the Moon in the 3rd House (which is about learning that their cherished metaphysical system is relative, just one version of a path to truth).

Really, I don't see how the pluto polarity point could thus occur by being a total loner- one would have to be interacting with others in order to experience the intellectual confrontations that help expose their belief system as being one relative version of reality as well as gaining the core security that would come from being able to communicate their belief system in a manner that can be understood by other people.

It can in fact also happen by sitting alone and reading a book or actually studying something it does not know. The very willingness to learn and develop more associations implies that the soul is willing to leave behind the old identity of already understanding things and "getting" it all already, which itself has served the purpose of maintaining it's dependencies and attachments to other people. Thus the very willingness to study and learn and the demonstration of that implies that this soul is evolving and activating the polarity point.

With regards to the example of a powerful teacher or guru, this would mean the person with this signature could again be a teacher this lifetime, but through experiences would gain the 1st house polarity point security of not needing to convert others to their metaphysical belief system. They will have fulfilled in part their South Node of the Moon need of finding larger metaphysical understanding, but perhaps through intellectual confrontations with others or other means, they will have discovered that this ultimate truth is so large that there are multitudes of paths that on an intuitive level they can sense the interconnections- so much so that it is no longer important to them if others believe the exact same thing that they do. As a teacher, they can learn the 3rd house ability to find the right words to get through to students so that they can understand the concepts of their metaphysical system, as well as the ability to focus on the immediate physical environment of social cues to deliver their message in a way that will get through.

Great. And it can also just mean that they need to establish classifications for what they know. Kind of like a meditation teacher whose next step is to learn the mechanics of meditation - to give names in order to logically describe what is happening.

However, this is not done in a manner aimed at manipulating the other person or trying to convert them that the metaphysical system is the system the other person must believe in- it is done more in the manner of presenting the wisdom they have to offer. I recently saw some Tibetan Monks doing sand mandala art and it makes me think of the symbolic gesture of creating such an intricate design structure and then releasing it to the universe with nonattachment in a way but also in a way of intentionally offering the inherent wisdom of the form presented...

In the case of someone with this signature falling under the influence of a powerful teacher who influences them into believing a metaphysical system that is not truly resonant with their path and growth, addressing some of the immediate physical environment issues of the 3rd House polarity point could help steer them away and toward a cosmological system that is more truly resonant to their path, going along with addressing the 1st house Pluto polarity point. So they could come into conflict with others in their immediate environment who have a belief system that is different, as the contradictions and contrasts become illuminated, since the belief system of the teacher they are following is not truly resonant, they will sense the relative truth of the contrasting belief system and begin to realize the relativity of various metaphysical systems.

Through 3rd house types of relationships and conversations, they could begin to research and self-initiate curiosity in a 1st house pluto polarity way toward discovering new information, about other cosmological systems, eventually finding one that is more truly resonant with their path. Perhaps they could also at some point use more logical arguments or thinking, or a questioning technique with the teacher that helps them realize there is a more resonant cosmological system out there for them to follow.

Great, and also using logic to question lies or exaggerations that the teacher may have. Here's a question for you if you wish to answer: What would the greatest insecurity be for this soul if it were to logically question it's teacher? How does doing so activate the polarity point?

I ask this because I want to point out to everyone that activating the polarity point is the result of the desire to grow beyond our limitations - which defacto means FACING our deepest insecurities.

In addition, in case the person has felt alienated from the culture around them and have a strong intuitive sense of understanding that is in contrast to how so many others around them seem to be understanding things- in this case, the movement to the 1st house polarity point would occur while fulfilling their core needs associated with their belief system without being concerned about the expectations of others- so this would not mean not communicating, it would mean communicating- finding a way to communicate their message so that others can understand them, taking the risk to speak out with this message despite the expectations of others around them. Instead of sealing themselves off in isolation and alienation, they can instead find a way to spread their message so that others can understand them, and perhaps make the choice to see things the way they see them or not- but the evolutionary point being that the person with this signature has taken the self-initiation to act on their core belief needs and communicate their message in way that others can understand.

Also, in case this sense of alienation has led them to hold on to their belief structure in an even more rigid fashion, and having their relational security needs of their 7th House Pluto dependent upon it, they will need to learn through 3rd house interactions with others in their immediate environment that there are many other perspectives, and through maintaining and self-initiating into these interactions over time, learning how to be a better listener and listening to the true needs of the other person in the relationship or interaction, they will begin to see how they can let go of their over attachment to their belief system and not be so defensive about it or become so upset when others do not believe it or follow it.

Yes, and it also might mean not interrupting others process with things like "I have the answer for you! Or, do this meditation technique - it works for everyone! Or read this book etc... "

In fact, with a 7th house Pluto, perhaps it is more inevitable that such a person would form key intimate relationships with people from vastly different backgrounds or belief systems that through the 7th House Pluto relational dynamic bond, they would be more likely forced to confront these and then if facing their Pluto polarity point, they would learn how to listen better to the needs of their partner and realize more of the relativity of their own belief systems as a result.

Excellent.

That's all the time I have- hope this makes sense. Blessings,Gray

Excellent ea analysis Gray. Thank you for taking the time to do this, I feel your analysis is a good example for others to take a look at. With love,Ari Moshe

Thank you again for your feedback and questions. I want to intuitively respond (!) to your question as I am still awake and who knows when I'll get the chance again-

Quote

Great, and also using logic to question lies or exaggerations that the teacher may have. Here's a question for you if you wish to answer: What would the greatest insecurity be for this soul if it were to logically question it's teacher? How does doing so activate the polarity point?

I ask this because I want to point out to everyone that activating the polarity point is the result of the desire to grow beyond our limitations - which defacto means FACING our deepest insecurities.

I am feeling at the moment the greatest insecurity would be risking the approval of the teacher, having expectations of needing to follow the wisdom and thoughts of the teacher but instead taking the risk of directly questioning the teacher, and their could be a 7th house Pluto fear of the teacher no longer liking them as a result, or risking their relationship being damaged in some way. The other possibility I could think of would be security attached to the belief of the teacher more so than the actual teacher, that by questioning the teacher they are questioning the belief they are gaining security from. However, I feel like the deeper insecurity would have to do with the relationship with the actual teacher.

Part of the polarity point process of growing beyond the limitations of Pluto in 7th would be self-initiating their 3rd house curiosity and following through on their core need to ask a question and perhaps breaking from the established expectations of their teacher-student relationship, especially in a dynamic like this in which they have a Pluto in 7th relational dependency upon the teacher relationship and when a group of others may as well and not many are questioning the statements of the teacher directly as that would create a socialized context of expectation the 7th House Pluto may not want to risk breaking. Facing the 3rd house North Node of Moon issues also activates the 7th Pluto lessons of objectivity within a socialized context, as learning to classify various concepts and undertake a rational process of compare and contrast requires a level of abstract and more objective critical thinking. If the teacher figure has a powerful vision and intuitive grasp of understanding, yet can be teaching at times from the 9th perspective that their vision of metaphysical understanding is the correct one at all costs, putting other systems down, on some level attempting to manipulate others to follow their beliefs, and making statements that at times can be an exaggerated sense of the total accuracy of their vision, or even flat-out telling a lie- basically what I mean is the person with this signature would activate the 1st house polarity point by logically and rationally confronting their teacher through a questioning technique- and this would be a great risk to their Pluto 7th compulsion of wanting to be liked and approved of by this teacher with whom they've had a pattern of following and agreeing in order to meet their Pluto 7th relational dependency needs. The 3rd House North Node of Moon also comes into play here as they may get this realization through cues within their immediate personal environment, conversations and conflicts with others in their environment- as you've mentioned, lessons they are learning as more of a student of their life instead of a student of this particular teacher and teacher philosophy.

In this quote I have only included the parts in which I wanted to respond...of course in the last post one can see the full text including Ari's comments.

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With Sn in the 9th house, the way that the Soul incarnated has actualized it’s Pluto in the 7th house desires in the past has been, via the vehicle of relationships, through cycles of searching for a belief system (How and why do you believe what you do and what do base your understanding on?) that could explain life as it exists for the individual and then teaching or “selling” their understanding to others. In the search mode, the person would probably be attracted to teacher-like relationships, and within this, maybe to different structures of relationships, for example exposing themselves to different cultures/communities that have different emphasis in the roles and how they are expected to be lived within a relationship.

"Roles" and cultural/social expectations is a Capricorn thing.

You're right of course. I think I was aiming for periods in the past where the person might have felt at odds with the prevailing belief system in the culture/community that they were currently living in. So, with the Nn in the 9th house, they may have travelled to other cultures/communities in search of another belief system that they found they resonated with inside. Of course, there is also the possibility that they did not relocate because they found a person where they lived who they felt could teach them about some other conceptual framework/belief system.

...Because the Pluto function (desire to evolve) in the past has been to develop their understanding of who they are in a social setting (relationships), they will have learned, to varying degrees, equality, relativity, and of listening (and for some actually “hearing”).

Actually "hearing" is Gemini, third house (ie the physiological function of the ear).

Sorry for the confusion. What I wanted to write was that "actually hearing" meant that they weren't just listening, but also "getting" what the other person was trying to say. Maybee it's my english, I should have added "psycologically" before "hearing". And I'm not sure if my statement is correct...just wanted to elaborate on what I was trying to say .

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Nn in the 3rd house will correlate to the evolving ego of the Soul and what types of experiences it needs (internal/external) to assist in the ongoing evolution, which in this life correspond to the first house polarity point of the natal Pluto placement. With a first house PPP, the intention is to minimize dependencies on others when making major decisions in life and to allow the same for others…to validate yourself. So, to listen at your gut instincts within and come up with your own answers would be how to arrive at the PPP.

This isn't necessarily about "making major decisions".

Ari, could you explain this? I thought that with Pluto in the 7th house one of the problems have been that the person has either not made these decisions independently or conversely influenced the other person when faced with "life decisions".

With the Nn in the 3rd house, the way this could be actualized would be to let your instincts confirm your intuition both in regards to what belief-system you identify with as well as when making major life decisions and to rely on this when exposed to other people’s beliefs while at the same time understand that to grow one has to acknowledge that what may be a valid belief or conceptual framework for some, may not be for others.

Yes. To elaborate on this, this can manifest in two ways:For the soul that has manifested as a teacher type person to whom others have formed dependencies, the nn will symbolize the need to learn how to communicate to others w/out the need to prove oneself or convince others of anything - which itself has been linked to the soul's compulsion to be needed. This means not having the answers and being more open to "not knowing", being a student of life.

In the case of a soul who has been attracted to teacher type people, the nn symbolizes the need to ask questions - even if that means not being "liked" or approved of by the teacher type person; to question beliefs via logical rational thinking and not to settle for generalizations that don't make logical sense.

Wow. Thank you Ari. That makes perfect sense.

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Excellent ea analysis Henrik. I feel you are really grasping the essence of the ea paradigm. If you wish, I invite you to further elaborate on how the nn activates the Pluto polarity point as there is more that can be examined here.With love,Ari Moshe

Thank you so much for your time and insights Ari. I will try to post more on how the Nn activates the PPP soon.

Hi all - I have not had the opportunity to be focused enough to address the posts here. I'm about to travel for the rest of the day, so tomorrow my intention is to respond to all the posts- from Stephen onwards.With love,Ari Moshe

With 7 house Pluto the Souls desire has mainly focused on having relationships with others because his emotional security structure is rooted in his need to be in a relationship to feel fulfilled and secure. This being 7 house Pluto is considered a relative new evolutionary cycle and because of this he will be learning through these relationships how to be in it on equal terms. Through these different relationships he got to know himself by contrast and comparison. He felt secure (Pluto 7 house) and emotionally safe because his beliefs, values where the same as his immediate surrounding, this in turn can become a compulsive dependency when he (Pluto) becomes overly involved in to many different relationships with their different values, opinions and beliefs, causing the Pluto person to have lost his identity and individuality. He becomes aware of his dependency on his partner when he realizes he does not feel comfortable when alone/ with himself, if he is not involved in a relationship. The 7 house Pluto person will feel uncomfortable with his situation and will be subconsciously attracted to powerful people that will appear to be stable / secure, who may have the ability to take control/ guidance of the Pluto´s life.

His unconscious desire and interest SN 9 house drove him to being exposed to different people with different points of views, values, and philosophies. Possibly through teachers, gurus and by reading, this activated his SN9/NN3 axis he started to question all his beliefs and the society he is part of.These teachers, gurus or influential people, would transmit him their knowledge and with it a completely new vision and dimension of the world. This in turn would force him to dig within himself and question his beliefs. His 9 house SN shows us that his Soul has already been in search for the metaphysical, cosmological universal truth prior to this life and that in his subconscious he knows much more about universal truth than he is consciously aware of.Maybe he will put a mask (Pluto), and lacking in sincerity when exposing his ideologies as he fears not being liked, making him insecure emotionally, also denial (Pluto) in acknowledging when pointing out his views that those are only his views for fear of loosing social grace. Confrontations with others will be inevitable, as the desire to break free / be independent, so as to have his own voice to speak out to others his views, becomes an uncontrollable force from within. Let us say that these confrontations forced him to go within, through these introspections he would inevitably tap into his intuition and the vast knowledge he carries in his subconscious mind, this in turn will help him activate his 9 house SN PP 3 house. His desire to express/ communicate to others in a comprehensive way his views, ideologies, metaphysical and cosmological universal truth in a simple individualistic language that is understood by most people will be achieved as he no longer has the compulsion to adopt others points of views to feel secure.

Now fearless he will integrate 7 house Pluto in the need to have or be in a relationship and yet satisfy his desire for his individuality and freedom to speak out ( 3 house NN ) his ideas in a comprehensive way. Without his emotional security / relationship feeling threatened as he has understood that we are all different people with different points of views and beliefs about the world.blessingsrita

Hi Tory, thank you for your additional post. Everything you wrote is accurate and if you wish to address this further: With the focus on the 7th house bottom line, how does the sn in the 9th potentially function as a way of resisting evolution? And how does the nn catalyze evolution?

Hi Ari, i love this thread, really appreciate it, so much love to you for helping us take our first baby EA steps! and Rita i don't mind at all you participating by responding to Ari's questions to my post, we are learning from each other here!

sn in the 9th resistance (relative to the 7th house natal Pluto): as "natural loners" (given that "many... have traveled far and wide throughout many lifetimes in the pursuit of truth and knowledge" Pluto vol 1 J.G*) there could too easily be a propensity for avoiding relationships of any depth and therefore avoiding the real work of applying all the fabulous "truths and wisdom" gained on the journey. We all know how challenging human relationships can be and indeed some of our greatest learning happens in our intimate relationships with family and loved ones. It's really when we get to walk the talk, so to speak. Also the potential "fundamental alienation from their own culture and society*" (not necessarily in every case but potentially) can make the unconscious (Pluto) desired for, or even longing for, certain relationships hard come by. The supression of this evolutionary necessity/ distortion could manifest in many ways: emotional "state of delusion and separateness" the dark side of the 9th in which ultimately the soul (as J.Green wisely puts it) "will either attempt to impose its system upon another or will withdraw from the threat posed by another*" taken to the extreme these deep emotional traumas are at the root of intense conflicts and violence towards others (retribution).

nn in the 3rd catalyst for natal Pluto in the 7th. The need to get to down to the details, back on earth (off the idealistic cloud) will coax the soul into the nitty gritty (the harsh realities) of relationships. Communication being at the forefront, objectivity versus subjectivity of truth (Is it true? Can you absolutely know it's true? Bless you Byron Katie!) Understanding many, many roads lead to home, i keep thinking of the Work of Byron Katie (the above two questions plus, Who would you be without the thought? and Turn the thought around?) as being the highest expression of the 3rd house, and relationships as being the ultimate platform for the Work.

Yea, perhaps a better way to put it would be ‘getting into its surroundings’(?)…I had in mind the Sag-ness of being ‘in its head’, wrapped up in the search for ‘higher’ understanding. But after re-reading some stuff, I realized that I’m projecting a bit of the Pisces-Virgo axis onto this, and being reminded that Sag-Gemini is about mind, not body or feeling, etc.

Yes, and if you didn't figure it out, (and I hope you don't mind me pointing this out) it's likely bc your own Sag sun is in the 6th house...

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(I actually felt uncomfortable with this part…dodged it a bit, to be honest) Let’s see. If we put it in terms of relationships, and the compulsion to manifest a teacher/student dynamic (9th) with others (7th), we could say that in releasing this need, the soul is learning to be a student of life in general, to hear what its environment is mirroring back, to learn (3rd) on its own (1st)...and vice versa (where there's resistance).

That's right. Being a student. The ongoing realization for this soul, with a nn in the 3rd house is that there are always more ways to look at things, more information to gather, more perspectives - this triggers the polarity point in the 1st house of learning to be independent of others since the 9th house tendencies have in part served to perpetuate it's separating desires of compulsively depending on others in some way. The act of questioning, being open to more information, new perspectives, of gemini'ing, defacto implies it's independence from unhealthy, power based relationship dynamics.

I want to point out too that with the nodes in the 9th and 3rd house this soul likely has "teacher/student" karma - karma with those to whom this soul has been a student in the past, and karma with those to whom this soul has been a teacher in the past. In each kind of relationship the soul may find itself on either side of the 7th house dynamic (being the dominant or the submissive).

It may be intensely triggered by the dogma or indoctrinization of it's teacher. In the same way others may feel that this soul is dogmatic alienating or controlling through its teachings. The growth for this soul would be to look at itself, to seek self knowledge first and foremost - instead of "having answers" all the time. And this is done by embracing the logical mind, to look at ones self objectively and to always consider more information. This will always expand it's understanding of the truth.

Wherever we find Pluto is where it is ever so easy to understand "others" (which produces a false sense of security) but usually the last thing we do is look at ourselves honestly. So in this case with the 9th house sn, this can happen by way of already "having a higher understanding" about someone else or about a relationship situation so as to produce a sense of security.

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I ‘got’ the essence of what you said in the book, but perhaps editing that part couldn’t hurt.

About the lack of accomplishment (shadow of Sag), I was referencing the ‘Integrity and honesty’ section in your book, as it’s manifested in my life. I was thinking more about the essence of accomplishment, which comes in embracing the Gemini polarity of learning (rather than what can be directly known through Sag)…not that an accomplishment is necessarily implied by the 9th-to-3rd intention here. If I’m missing something, I’m all ears.

I understand what you meant now. Here's the quote from the book to provide context for everyone:

"Integrity and honesty Through the Sagittarius archetype, a soul can easily "bite off more than it can chew". In the largess of a vision, a soul can easily move onward beyond the point of sound reason and logic (Gemini polarity). This can become so extreme to the point of lacking healthy boundaries/not knowing when to stop.

The core issue here is lack of integrity; envisioning based on a natural intuition of what in fact is possible, to the point of not being honest about oneself here and now. A soul can move from "grand vision/plan" to the next without ever sticking with something long enough to truly reach a substantial level of accomplishment.

A soul, post exuberance, can become overwhelmed by the realization that it doesn't actually know what it is doing. If that realization is embraced consciously, it can lead to a deep commitment to live according to a higher level of integrity and honesty with oneself."

“Phenomenal reality is Sag” – can you say more? In my mind, I was correlating the Sag polarity with ‘isness’ and the Gemini polarity with the phenomena arising from that isness. I suppose they’re one and the same, and Sag-Gemini represents the two aspects/ways of knowing it…? Sorry if confusing…thank you!!

Gemini isn't phenomona itself, it is our classifications of phenomona. Gemini only has existance relative to the classifiactions that we make about phenomenal reality. Phenomenal reality, which is simply that which is MANIFEST within creation, is also what can be understood by humans. And that is Sag.

Is God realization a progressive knowledge of God as exists within the manifested Creation, ie. limited to the manifested Creation, or is it also a progressive knowledge of the Unmanifested?"

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It is limited to the manifested Creation. It can never be linked to the unmanifested = unknown because, after all, the unmanifested is not yet known because it not manifested in the first place. What Souls in the human form can know is linked to the interfacing between the known = manifested and the unmanifested = unknown. That interfacing point between the manifested and the unmanifested is the point of Creation as Soul's in human form can know it.

Inner knowing of that which is universally true occurs of course through various practices, Virgo, that are all aimed and shallowing or stopping the breath. As that occurs the Soul is then able to penetrate the inner realms of consciousness itself: Neptune correlates with the phenomena of consciousness. As it progressively penetrates these inner realms of consciousness a variety of natural truths that correlate with the nature and cause of consciousness itself become KNOWN. And this knowing, again, is not a function of beliefs because, as these inner truths are known, there is nothing to literally believe and everything to know. And because these inner truths are simply known there then becomes nothing to doubt. The knowing is a function of actual experience, and those experiences are universal to any Soul who so desires to know these inner truths that correlate with the nature of consciousness. Because they are in fact universal then serves as a way of knowing that which is true, versus that which is make believe.

When this is the baseline within the Soul's consciousness, the point of personal Soul knowing and integration, this then serves as the vehicle through which, and because of, the Soul then 'interprets' the nature of any given phenomenal reality. The dynamic or archetype of interpretation specially correlates to Sagittarius, Jupiter, and the 9th House. As the Soul interprets the nature of any external phenomenal reality relative to this inner baseline the MEANING of whatever external phenomenal reality is then projected upon that phenomenal reality. As the Soul does this is will then automatically create a way of intellectually organizing all of phenomenal reality that reflects the core inner baseline of the inner knowing of the nature of consciousness itself. This natural process of intellectually organizing phenomenal reality correlates to Gemini: how the nature of thoughts that occur as a function of the inner knowing are connected to create a larger whole that is organized.

All of this then correlates to the nature of various 'spiritual' cosmologies that humans have manifested going back to it's own origins on this Earth that are then called 'religions'. This is then exactly where the conflict between pure beliefs versus actual knowing can occur because many who do desire to know the Origins of all things, the Origin of consciousness itself, indeed the Origin of themselves, align themselves with whatever spiritual cosmology without actually doing what is necessary to know for themselves that which is true. Thus, by attaching themselves to whatever cosmology then leads to their personal belief system that is of course used to interpret whatever phenomenal reality. When a Soul does this, without actually doing that which is necessary to inwardly know, these beliefs are then projected upon phenomenal reality so that when phenomenal reality manifests in ways that cause conflict with the projected beliefs the result is then doubt: doubting the nature of the projected beliefs themselves that have been born from, again, from whatever spiritual cosmology they have latched onto relative to the pure desire to Know. This conflict caused by projected beliefs initially creates the disillusionment of those beliefs that then triggers the doubt.

The phenomena of perception correlates with Scorpio, Pluto, and the 8th House. The Soul perceives the nature of phenomenal reality and then begins to give names and classifications to the nature of that phenomenal reality. Phenomenal reality is Jupiter which co-rules the sacral chakra with Neptune. The interpretation, Jupiter. of that phenomenal reality, Jupiter that is perceived by the Soul, Pluto, is thus given order by way of organized linear thought that connects all the different shapes, forms, and the totality of the manifested Creation into a logical system of thought that is interconnected so as to make the Soul feel secure. Mercury is the natural polarity of Jupiter wherein lies the logical ordering of thoughts that correlate with the perception upon the nature of phenomenal reality.

This then becomes the basis of all kinds of ways to organize phenomenal reality relative to the interpretation of what the phenomenal reality means. Thus the basis of that which is inherently true, Jupiter co-ruling with Neptune relative to the sacral chakra, and that which is not: delusive in nature. The Soul is given the God created right to perceive the nature of the phenomenal reality in any way that is so desires which includes knowing the truth, Jupiter/Neptune, of the manifested Creation.

Jeffrey: The best thing to do with scientists who want to argue with you is to turn their own arguments back on them. Then they get reduced to muddle. To the basic statement, "I don't know" and then they revert to their safe little ideas.

Audience: Is there a classic aspect for scientists?

Jeffrey: In our times, it is Gemini or Virgo. Gemini correlates to empiricism. Simply the phenomena of the human mind projecting itself outwards in order to give names to the phenomenal reality of Sagittarius. The human mind makes the boundaries. One step further is that the human mind creates the phenomenological object in space. However, there are also phenomenological objects in space that self-exist. Man created the lectern, did man create the tree?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Back to you...

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Fleshing out’s a weak spot! Rather than make correlations between 1st/3rd and 7th/9th, I think I’ll stick with Pluto as the bottom line. I made an attempt, but couldn’t really get anywhere with it…at least not in words. One idea regarding resistance that I want to mention is: with a 3rd house shadow in mind, this soul may cling to ‘safe’ pseudo-intellectual-cerebral relationships (7th) in which 1st house integration is resisted.

There is no 3rd house shadow. What you wrote however could be true for the first paradigm we did with the sn in the 3rd.

Please feel free to ask more about any of this. If you have further questions about understanding the nature of sag as it relates to phenomenal reality, I suggest starting a new thread for that.With love,Ari Moshe

I realized that in my book I speak about the relationship between "noumina" and "phenomena" which I sense is what you were referring to above. I'll have to reflect on what I wrote and make some revisions and possibly ask some questions here on this mb. I'm not certain in this moment if what I wrote about those terms is accurate within ea.

It's important for me to clarify here that I'm constantly revising this book as I am constantly finding places where what I wrote is either not actually accurate and consistent with the ea teachings or just misleading/unclear. It's always wise to weigh my book against what Jeff Green actually said. My book was only intended as a support for those who are studying Jeff Green's teachings.

I also want to share with everyone here: my sn is in Sag, so paying attention to the actual teachings of ea instead of "already knowing" is a part of my own growth. So again I'm going to go through several sections that you have brought up Stephen and make revisions in these coming days.

"Here's a question for you if you wish to answer: What would the greatest insecurity be for this soul if it were to logically question it's teacher? How does doing so activate the polarity point?

I ask this because I want to point out to everyone that activating the polarity point is the result of the desire to grow beyond our limitations - which defacto means FACING our deepest insecurities."

I am feeling at the moment the greatest insecurity would be risking the approval of the teacher, having expectations of needing to follow the wisdom and thoughts of the teacher but instead taking the risk of directly questioning the teacher, and their could be a 7th house Pluto fear of the teacher no longer liking them as a result, or risking their relationship being damaged in some way.

Excellent

The other possibility I could think of would be security attached to the belief of the teacher more so than the actual teacher, that by questioning the teacher they are questioning the belief they are gaining security from. However, I feel like the deeper insecurity would have to do with the relationship with the actual teacher.

Part of the polarity point process of growing beyond the limitations of Pluto in 7th would be self-initiating their 3rd house curiosity and following through on their core need to ask a question and perhaps breaking from the established expectations of their teacher-student relationship, especially in a dynamic like this in which they have a Pluto in 7th relational dependency upon the teacher relationship and when a group of others may as well and not many are questioning the statements of the teacher directly as that would create a socialized context of expectation the 7th House Pluto may not want to risk breaking.

Yes that is possible.

Facing the 3rd house North Node of Moon issues also activates the 7th Pluto lessons of objectivity within a socialized context, as learning to classify various concepts and undertake a rational process of compare and contrast requires a level of abstract and more objective critical thinking. If the teacher figure has a powerful vision and intuitive grasp of understanding, yet can be teaching at times from the 9th perspective that their vision of metaphysical understanding is the correct one at all costs, putting other systems down, on some level attempting to manipulate others to follow their beliefs, and making statements that at times can be an exaggerated sense of the total accuracy of their vision, or even flat-out telling a lie- basically what I mean is the person with this signature would activate the 1st house polarity point by logically and rationally confronting their teacher through a questioning technique- and this would be a great risk to their Pluto 7th compulsion of wanting to be liked and approved of by this teacher with whom they've had a pattern of following and agreeing in order to meet their Pluto 7th relational dependency needs.

The 3rd House North Node of Moon also comes into play here as they may get this realization through cues within their immediate personal environment, conversations and conflicts with others in their environment- as you've mentioned, lessons they are learning as more of a student of their life instead of a student of this particular teacher and teacher philosophy.

Thank you for the thought provoking question, Ari!love,Gray

Thank you for your further analysis Gray. I recommend others read what you wrote as I feel it very accurately describes the relationship between the nn and the polarity point.

If you wish, another question I have to elaborate on this dynamic: if this soul is playing the role of a teacher, which is also very likely, how does the nn in the 3rd house activate the Polarity point?

Sorry for the confusion. What I wanted to write was that "actually hearing" meant that they weren't just listening, but also "getting" what the other person was trying to say. Maybee it's my english, I should have added "psycologically" before "hearing". And I'm not sure if my statement is correct...just wanted to elaborate on what I was trying to say .

I understand now. What you wrote is accurate.

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Nn in the 3rd house will correlate to the evolving ego of the Soul and what types of experiences it needs (internal/external) to assist in the ongoing evolution, which in this life correspond to the first house polarity point of the natal Pluto placement. With a first house PPP, the intention is to minimize dependencies on others when making major decisions in life and to allow the same for others…to validate yourself. So, to listen at your gut instincts within and come up with your own answers would be how to arrive at the PPP.

This isn't necessarily about "making major decisions".

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Ari, could you explain this? I thought that with Pluto in the 7th house one of the problems have been that the person has either not made these decisions independently or conversely influenced the other person when faced with "life decisions"

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Sure. Simply that it isn't just about major decisions - indecisiveness can manifest relative to even small choices. Choice making of course is Pluto, Scorpio, 8th house and Aries, Mars, First house. And the 7th house is a natural polarity to the first house. So we have the tension, how do I make choices from within myself when other people have other needs/wants/expectations and I am needing to seek their approval. That's what can create projection and inter-reflective listening (constantly internalizing the other person's response as a "meter" for how to express oneself. Fyi I don't know what the actual psychological term for that would be) as well as in some way "asking" permission - gaining approval - before doing or saying anything. It all boils down to "Am I accepted by this other?" So this can manifest in subtle ways, not just in major life choices.