1 < Day 23 Monday, 21st February 2000. 2(10.30 a.m.) 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I just want to say something to 4Mr Rampton, if I may, first off. Do you think it would be 5possible, Mr Rampton, to get an index prepared for these 6files that have come into existence during the course of 7the trial? I mean J. 8MR RAMPTON: In hand ---- 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Good. 10MR RAMPTON: --- already. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Because I am finding with the transcript so 12often you cannot actually discover where it is from the 13transcript and then you have to wade through. 14MR RAMPTON: Yes, I quite agree, but that is in hand. Slowly a 15process is happening whereby each topic will have a 16separate distilled file. 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am glad it is in hand. Thank you very 18much. 19MR RAMPTON: I have nearly finished the one on history and then 20there will be others. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, Mr Irving. 22MR IRVING: May it please the court. My Lord, three minor 23points to deal with before I resume the cross-examination 24of Professor Evans. First of all, the Defendants provided 25to me, or served on me at about 6.30, in other words after 26close of business on Friday, a 24-page glossary of

. P-2

1meanings of German words prepared by a Dr Longerich, who 2is going to be the next expert witness. I am not very 3happy about this way of doing things. They have been 4working on this case now for 18 months or more, and to 5have quite an important document like that provided to me 6at literally the last moment is awkward. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: I sympathise with that because you have quite 8a lot on your plate already but, having said that, I think 9I would probably be able to guess at the contents of a 10good deal of it because we have been through a lot in the 11evidence, have we not, like Ausrotten and so on. 12MR IRVING: It is perfectly proper that they should served such 13a glossary as that because experts are allowed to give 14evidence on the meaning of foreign words, as I understand 15it, and that is what this largely is. It is looking at 16various words in various documents partly pre-empting what 17I was about to say anyway. I am unhappy about the 18document being put to your Lordship in that form without 19your Lordship realising that it has only just been put to 20me. It is rather like the catalogue of extracts, a very 21handy reference form for your Lordship, rather like a 22printed index. I am just unhappy that it has been done at 23this very late moment. 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: I will certainly bear that in mind. 25MR RAMPTON: Your Lordship has not got one, so can I pass one 26up. It is really a most helpful document, I find. That

. P-3

1is in English. The original was in German. It is 2relatively uncontroversial, I would have thought. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: It may be controversial, but nothing new? 4MR RAMPTON: There is nothing new in it. It is a review of the 5usage of certain key words. That is all it is. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: As I understand it really, there is pretty 7much agreement that a lot of these words are either in 8themselves equivocal, they can mean something sinister or 9not, or in many cases the words are innocent, ostensibly 10innocent words are used to camouflage a sinister meaning. 11So in the end maybe not a great deal turns on it. 12MR IRVING: It may be helpful in some respects, it may be 13contentious in others, my Lord. That is all I want to say 14before I actually start the cross-examination on that. It 15is neither fish nor fowl again. Like so much that has 16been done in this case, it is neither the expert report 17which should have been served last August, nor is it 18something being put to the witness in the witness box. It 19is kind of halfway in between. 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I tell you, I will bear that in mind when 21we get to it. Mr Rampton, shall I put this into 22Longerich? 23MR RAMPTON: Yes, would your Lordship put it in the front of 24Longerich, I would recommend. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. 26MR IRVING: My Lord, the next point is of rather more

. P-4

1substance. This concerns the matter of the expert reports 2which have been withdrawn. I am sorry, they have not been 3withdrawn, but on which no cross-examination will be 4possible. 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. 6MR IRVING: Your Lordship and I have both raised our eyebrows 7over the possibility of putting in reports without the 8witnesses to back them up as far as expert reports are 9concerned. I am going to invite your Lordship to direct 10that the Defendants should produce a skeleton, in effect, 11setting out the authorities and statutes on which they 12rely, if they intend to put in the reports without the 13experts. I think that would be perfectly proper to enable 14me to argue the matter at a later date. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I think I said, when Mr Rampton 16indicated that that was what they were intending to do, 17that it was the first time I had come across this being 18done in relation to experts' reports. I think it is 19reasonable that, subject to what Mr Rampton may wish to 20say, you should have chapter and verse presented to you 21for an entitlement to take that course with an expert, but 22I will hear what Mr Rampton says obviously. 23MR IRVING: Obviously, if I am not going to be required to 24present evidence or to impugn those experts reports, 25I should be told as early as possible because that will 26halt a major amount of the work that is still ahead of me.

. P-5

1MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think anyone is suggesting you are 2not entitled to impugn their reports by evidence or in 3other ways. The question you are really on is whether 4they are entitled to adduce the experts' reports under the 5Civil Evidence Act or not. 6MR RAMPTON: I have to say, I do not think it is an enormous 7point. If we think we want to rely to any extent on the 8actual contents of the reports of the witnesses that we 9are not calling in person, then naturally we will have to 10persuade your Lordship that we are entitled to do that. 11Presently, my view is that almost everything that I need 12for cross-examination of this subject and for proof is to 13be found in Mr Irving's own words and in documents sent to 14him. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, but if you are going to rely on the 16uncalled experts, then it may not take very long because 17I suspect the answer is that the language of the Act does 18not distinguish between expert and lay witnesses. 19MR RAMPTON: I am almost certain it does not, but I am not 20going to commit myself. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: There may be some authority on it. It does 22strike me as slightly unusual. 23MR RAMPTON: I have not come across it before but that does not 24mean it cannot be done . 25MR IRVING: It does certainly put me at a disadvantage, not 26knowing precisely what they are intending to do.

. P-6

1MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think we know what they are intending to 2do. There is a question whether they are entitled to do 3it. 4MR IRVING: Mr Rampton, as I understood, has just said that he 5might rely on parts and he might not, which leaves us 6precisely where we were when I into court this morning. 7What I am really asking is that your Lordship should 8direct them, if they intend to rely on part, they must 9indicate what statutes and authorities they are going to 10rely on to open that particular door. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think I will be a bit more specific about 12it. I think it would be helpful to have it in writing 13briefly. 14MR RAMPTON: Yes. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think there must be a brief written 16submission lodged by -- are we going to finish Professor 17Evans today? 18MR RAMPTON: Professor Evans today -- can I say a little bit 19about how I see things going? Your Lordship may or may 20not agree with me, I do not know. Professor Evans I hope 21will finish today. Then there will be Dr Longerich 22tomorrow. I hope that he will finish either tomorrow or 23Wednesday. Then comes the question what happens next. 24There is a vast amount of material in part generated by 25what one might call the history of Mr Irving's own 26activities in these areas.

. P-7

1 What Miss Rogers and I and others have been 2doing is to try and reduce all that vast amount of 3material to two files. Those files themselves are quite 4fat. First, I would not want to cross-examine Mr Irving 5on those files without his having seen them, and I do 6believe that the more time he could have to absorb -- it 7is all material which is in the wider range of files 8already. There is nothing new in it, but it has all been 9pulled together. In front of each section the intention 10is to have a little summary of what each section contains, 11which Miss Rogers has been doing with help. 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: These are the people he has associated with, 13is that right? 14MR RAMPTON: Yes, the people he has associated with, 15organizations and individuals. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. 17MR RAMPTON: I began to read it over the weekend and it will be 18an extremely valuable set of documents. In the end, it 19will cut things down. My tentative proposal would be 20that, when Dr Longerich has finished, I would have some 21questions of Mr Irving in cross-examination on history, 22but I would leave that association cross-examination until 23the following Monday. Then, when that was finished, which 24would take maybe half a day or a day, I would then call 25Professor Funke. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are, effectively, suggesting that

. P-8

1Wednesday onwards should be time for Mr Irving to digest 2these files? 3MR RAMPTON: Probably Thursday onwards because I will have some 4cross-examination. A combination of Dr Longerich and my 5further cross-examination on history should get us 6probably through all or most of Wednesday. Then what I am 7proposing is we should take the last two days of this week 8off so that Mr Irving can read these files, which he 9should get by, I hope, tomorrow night. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. 11MR RAMPTON: If he says he cannot do it in the time, then he 12will say so and your Lordship will hear what he has to 13say. 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can we just revert to the written 15submissions? I think close of business tomorrow for the 16written submissions on entitlement not to call the experts 17but to rely on their evidence. 18MR RAMPTON: I do not think it will take very long, I may be 19wrong. The new edition of Phippson has just come out, so 20I can have a look in that. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Say close of business tomorrow for a short 22note of the submissions. 23MR RAMPTON: Yes. 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: So you will get it hopefully sometime towards 25the end of tomorrow. Mr Irving what about the suggestion 26Mr Rampton has just made about the way in which we deal

. P-9

1with the rest of the evidence? I am not going to do 2anything if you have sensible objections to it. 3MR IRVING: I have no objection to that, my Lord. The 4timetable sounds very sound. If I was to utter a wish and 5I know my wishes count for very little in this court room, 6it would be that one of the spare days should be put 7before Dr Longerich rather than after, to able me to take 8Longerich probably advised, although I am prepared for him 9and, of course, I have read his entire report and have 10prepared a large bundle of material, which would in effect 11being tomorrow being free and Longerich being called on 12the following day. 13MR RAMPTON: I embrace that enthusiasm, if I may say so. It 14would make our task in completing these files a lot easier 15if we did it that way. I do not any longer have to do any 16preparation for Dr Longerich, except that that will also 17give me the opportunity to finish the history file. 18Mr Irving certainly will need that and, if he can get it 19by close of play tonight, or even lunch time tomorrow, 20that will help. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I am happy to do that, providing that we 22have the bundles available so that tomorrow can be used 23looking through your new material. I can use tomorrow. 24MR RAMPTON: The history file he should have tomorrow, because 25that helps his cross-examination of Dr Longerich. I will 26tell your Lordship how it is proposed to compose it. On

. P-10

1one side would be in chronological order the German 2documents. So far as they are available, on the facing 3page will be an English translation of the key part. For 4the most part, that can be done just by removing. What I 5have done is to remove the page from the expert report and 6put it facing the German text. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: As long as that is going to be available by 8tonight. 9MR RAMPTON: I will finish that tonight, it will be copied 10tomorrow morning and then distributed as soon as possible. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can than be accelerated? I think Mr Irving 12will want to use the whole of tomorrow, and indeed so will 13I. 14MR RAMPTON: I have about another 30 pages to get through. 15When I have done that, it will go off and be copied. 16Whether late tonight or early tomorrow morning, Mr Irving 17will get a copy. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Early tomorrow, yes. That is what we will do 19then. 20MR IRVING: I am very pleased to hear that, my Lord. There is 21one very minor point which then remains. I might either 22put it just as a factual point or put it to the witness in 23cross-examination. This is the fact that, very minor 24point, the 10 a.m. broadcast by Dr Goebbels as opposed to 254 p.m., I have been informed by Mrs Weckert, who heard it, 26that she heard it at her school. It was repeatedly

. P-11

1broadcast during the day. She heard it as a school child 2and the German school only operated from 8.00 am until 3midday. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you are going to say that, you can 5certainly put it. There is a technical objection to be 6taken that you cannot really put it unless you have Mrs 7Weckert available. She is alive obviously because you 8have spoken to her recently. 9MR IRVING: A few days ago. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: You could probably correct it by means of a 11Civil Evidence Act notice but, Mr Rampton, I think it is 12reasonable to put this. 13MR RAMPTON: If Mr Irving says it, Mr Irving says it. Whether 14Mrs Weckert is to be believed is quite another question. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Or indeed whether she can remember. I think 16that is a question in cross-examination and not a 17submission. 18MR IRVING: Very well. Professor Evans? 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor Evans, you have been waiting 20patiently. Would you like to resume, now? 21< PROFESSOR EVANS, Continued22Cross-examination by Mr Irving, continued.23MR IRVING: Good morning, Professor Evans. Are you aware of 24what time German schools operated during the war years? 25Was it on an all day basis? 26A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
To my knowledge, German schools have never operated on an

. P-12

1all day basis. They still do not. 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
Am I right in saying they start very early and end about 3lunch time? 4A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That is right, about 1 o'clock. 5MR IRVING: That is the only question that I can usefully ask. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: You have not put the thrust of it yet. You 7should. 8MR IRVING: I will have to then. In that case, if a Mrs Ingrid 9Weckert was to say that, as a school child, she heard the 10Goebbels broadcast as a school child, when it was 11broadcast to all the school children, on the morning of 12November 10th 1938, would you agree that in that case 13this would mean that she had heard it during the morning? 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
The question is whether one believe her 62 years after the 15event, and given the fact that she is not to be believed 16in almost anything thing that she writes or says about 17these events. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is she the amateur -- perhaps amateur is 19wrong. 20MR IRVING: An amateur historian who is a right winger. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Who is accused of being anti-semitic by the 22Defendants? 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Whose book has been placed on the black list by the German 24government, my Lord, as anti-semitic and liable to stir up 25racial hatred in its account of the events of 9th and 10th 26November 1938.

. P-13

1MR IRVING: Professor Evans, you rely quite heavily in your 2expert report on a book by a man called Dr Kogon. Is that 3right? 4A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Not very heavily, no. I do cite it in a number of places. 5It is not solely by him. It is written by him in 6collaboration with others. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can I ask you to have a look at this little bundle of 8documents? Your Lordship also has this bundle, I believe. 9A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I have not seen this before, have I, Mr Irving? 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
No. It is a new bundle? 11A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Thank you. I have to say it is rather difficult being 12handed substantial bundles of material every morning by 13Mr Irving without any prior warning. 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sure you are going to be able to 15cope, Professor Evans. 16MR IRVING: This is the way it works, Professor Evans. 17I submit documents to you and invite you to comment on 18them. Is page 1 an extract from a report in the New York 19Times of December 26th 1987? 20A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It appears to be. It is not a photocopy though it is not 21an original. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
Does it refer to the fact that a well-known renowned 23anti-Nazi writer and Resistance figure, Eugene Kogon has 24been listed by the United Nations as wanted for mass 25murder on the same list as lists Kurt Valtheim and various 26other Nazis?

. P-14

1A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It does. It goes on to say, "Hermann Langbann, the 2co-author and long time associate of Dr Kogon said from 3Vienna this week that Dr Kogon had saved many prisoners at 4Buchenwald at great personal risk, and that the 5Commission's listing was a tragic error." 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 7A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
The New York Times story starts with a reference to 8inaccuracies and untested allegations in the files on 9which such listings appear to rest. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. My Lord, just so you can know where we are going 11today, your Lordship might wish to know that I will 12certainly complete cross-examining the witness on the 13whole of the report up to but not including the 14Adjutants. Quite simply, I am still not certain whether 15the Adjutants are being relied on by the Defence or not in 16this matter. 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that is fair because they disappeared 18from the picture at one stage and I think they have 19partially come back in. 20MR RAMPTON: No, not really. Can I say I rely on the Adjutants 21this far and I have already made the point in 22cross-examination. Professor Evans has already made it 23from the witness box. I rely on the Adjutants to show 24what one might call an uncritical credulity where they are 25concerned as contrasted with what one might call a 26critical incredulity where witnesses say things that Mr

. P-15

1Irving does not like. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Particularly in Kristallnacht. 3MR RAMPTON: Exactly, and on Auschwitz. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. So, in other words, you are not really 5going to put your case in any greater detail than already 6has been done? 7MR RAMPTON: No. 8MR IRVING: In that case, I do not propose to waste much time 9on him. It is very interesting what the Professor has 10written, but we do want to press ahead. (To the witness): 11Professor Evans, will you go to page 397 of your report, 12please? 13A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
You touch there briefly on the gassings at Belzec, 15Treblinka and Sobibor, and you say that these events are 16not disputed by serious historians. 17A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I do not see that. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
397? 19A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
399. I say that in 399, yes. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes on 399? 21A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
I am sorry, paragraph 8. 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, that is a very brief summary of what I take to be the 24existing state of knowledge as a background to what I say 25in this section of my report. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. I am not going to question you in any great detail

. P-16

1on those camps because, of course, for the purposes of 2this trial, we are accepting that gassings did occur in 3those camps. But again just going to the quality of your 4knowledge, are you saying that there is a broad consensus 5on these camps? This is another example of the broad 6consensus that you use sometimes as your guiding star? 7A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It is really for the orientation for the court. It is not 8just on the camps. I describe in the paragraphs as 9rapidly and economically as I can ---- 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
Did you form an opinion about what ---- 11A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
--- Nazi policy in occupied Poland in a general sense. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
Did you form an opinion about what kind of gas was used in 13those camps in your reading on the matter? 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That is not -- yes, on the top I do mention this in 15relation to Belzec on line 3 of page 398, carbon monoxide. 16Q.
[Mr Irving]
Are you aware that there has been dispute over that 17particular detail, whether it was carbon oxide or whether 18it was diesel engines or petrol engines or even steam 19being used? 20A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I have not heard steam, I have to say, but in any case it 21does not really make a great deal of difference as to 22whether the gas was poisonous or not. The point is, of 23course, that if it was not poisonous, then asphyxiation 24was the cause of death. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
Has the position of the mass graves been fixed? There 26must be enormous mass graves of these, what, 1 million

. P-17

1people were killed in these three camps. 2A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
This is really just painting in the background. If you 3want to present me with documentation on this, Mr Irving, 4I will be happy to comment on it. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
I am just asking the state of your knowledge. Are you 6aware if there has been any kind of archeological 7investigation of the sites because there are no remains on 8any of those sites, are there? 9A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
You would have to present me with documentation to show 10that there were no remains before I agreed with you. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I am a bit puzzled by this in a 12way because you have accepted that I think hundreds of 13thousands of Jews were gassed in those three camps, so, in 14a sense, there is not much to be gained by asking about 15archeological investigation. 16MR IRVING: I was using that as an example really of exposing 17to your Lordship the rather shallow nature of the 18investigation made by this expert witness on matters of 19some moment, that I asked three or four questions, to each 20of which I got replies I can only describe as evasive. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, but if there is no issue about it, 22really it is beside the point. 23MR IRVING: It is not about the fact, but about the scale, my 24Lord, really, and that is how I would leave it. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I think hundreds of thousands you have 26accepted?

. P-18

1MR IRVING: Yes, of that order of magnitude. 2A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
The problem is, Mr Irving, I am not prepared to accept 3statements of your about archeological remains and so on 4unless you can present me with documentation. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
The question I asked you was were you aware of any 6archeological investigations. 7A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well.... 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
And I was asking purely about the state of your 9enquiries. We will now proceed, my Lord. We will make 10very rapid progress today. We are going to go to the 11Goebbels diary entry of March 27th 1942 which begins on 12that same page, 399, of your report, Professor Evans. 13I am going to ask you to look at page 400 of your report, 14Professor Evans, line 3. This is the part that matters. 15I am going to read out the translation that you have 16offered to the court of these three or four lines: "The 17Jews are now being pushed out of the General Government". 18What is happening here? Has Dr Goebbels received ---- 19A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
The top line, yes. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
Has Dr Goebbels received a report from the SD or from some 21Nazi authority which he is summarising here, is this what 22has happened? 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I am not saying -- he certainly has been informed about 24these events and he is putting down a summary of them. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
A summary of them. Is there any indication known to you 26that that particular report went to Adolph Hitler? I have

. P-19

1to ask that because that is an element of this trial. 2A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Then you would have to provide me with a copy of the 3report and we would have to look at it in detail. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
If there had been an indication that it had gone to Adolf 5Hitler in the diary, then you would have referred to it, 6would you not? 7A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, indeed, yes. I mean, if, or, rather, if Goebbels 8thought it worth mentioning that a report had been the 9basis of what he is saying here and that it had gone to 10Hitler and he had mentioned it, then I would have 11mentioned that too, yes. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
You rely on this diary entry quite heavily as evidence 13that Goebbels was what, 100 per cent aware of the killings 14in the East, the killing of the Jews being pushed out of 15the General Government, that Goebbels was aware that this 16was going on? 17A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
"The Jews are now being pushed out of the General 19Government, beginning near Lublin, to the East", he 20writes. "A pretty barbaric procedure is being applied 21here, and it is not to be described in any more detail, 22and not much is left to the Jews themselves". I have no 23quarrel with that translation. 24 You then continue: "In general one may conclude 25that 60 per cent of them must be liquidated, while only 40 26per cent can be put to work". This is the sentence on

. P-20

1which you really rely, is it not? 2A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Among others. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 4A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I mean, I quote a very lengthy chunk of this because you 5used this -- you suppressed a great deal of this in your 6own, in your own work. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
Now, Dr Goebbles is not stating this as a fact, is he? He 8is speculating. You have left a word out, have you not, 9in your translation? You left out the word "wohl. I draw 10your attention to line 3 of the footnote. 11A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, I am sorry. I have not. I have translated that as 12"In general one may conclude", not that "one must 13conclude" ---- 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
I draw attention to ---- 15A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
And that, if I may finish, that formulation is intended to 16convey the sense of strong probability that the word 17"wohl" indicates. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
Does not "wohl" mean "perhaps"? 19A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, it does not. It means "probably". 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
Even if it meant "probably" which I would participate ---- 21A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
If he wanted to say "perhaps" he would have 22said "vielleicht". 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
You have left the word out, have you not? 24A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, I have not left it out, Mr Irving. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
"In general one may probably conclude" or "one may perhaps 26conclude" indicates speculation on his part and not

. P-21

1knowledge. 2A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, I am sorry, Mr Irving. "Im grossen kann man wohl 3festellen", "in general, large scale", "kann" is "can", 4right, not "may", "man", "one can", "wohl festellen", very 5well, and it is "very well conclude". 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: "Wohl" can be translated just as "well" here, 7can it not, "one can well" ---- 8A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
"Conclude", yes. 9Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
--- "suppose"? 10A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I tried to render that slightly better, less awkward 11English by saying "one may conclude"; the "may" conveying 12the element of slight uncertainty in that use of the word 13"wohl". 14MR IRVING: The meanings are, my Lord ---- 15A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I have not left the word out. 16Q.
[Mr Irving]
--- "well" "indeed" "possibly" and "probably" in that 17order or "I dare say" which is a very nice one in this 18connection. "I dare say". "I dare say one can conclude 19that 60 per cent of them must be liquidated". Does this 20indicate and element of certainty? 21A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It is probably. "Wohl" is stronger than "vielleicht". It 22indicates ---- 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
But you have left a word out, have you not? 24A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, I have not left a word out, Mr Irving. I have 25conveyed this, I think, accurately by indicating the 26element of slight uncertainty in the sentence by saying

. P-22

1"one may conclude" instead of "one can well conclude". 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
He is not stating it as a matter fact; he is saying, "this 3is probably or possibly or I dare say one can say that 4this happening"? 5A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
He is saying,"This is probably happening". 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is this not a very weak and rusty hook on which to hang 7page after page after page of what now follows? 8A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It is not the only statement here and it does, I think, 9reflect the policy accurately even if the percentages can 10be argued about in the way they were put into practice. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do you read Goebbels as talking about 12percentages in that sentence or about the fact of what is 13happening to the Jews? 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, he says, "In general one may conclude that 60 per 15cent of them may be liquidated, while only 40 per cent can 16be put to work. It is those percentages, I mean, that is 17obviously again very rough and that again may well 18indicate the element of uncertainty that he is talking 19about. I mean, I think the "wohl feststellen" expresses 20his slight vagueness about these percentages. It might 21have been 70/30 or 80/20 or some other percentages, but he 22is saying that the probability is it is about 60/40. 60 23will die, be killed, and 40 will be put to work. 24MR IRVING: In other words, these figures are not contained in 25the report, are they, these percentages? 26A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
You would have to show me the report, Mr Irving, before I

. P-23

1could comment on that. 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
But you have seen the diary that you are seeking to draw 3major conclusions from it of the state of people's 4knowledge, and I am drawing your attention to the fact 5that it is not knowledge at all, it is speculation. He is 6saying, "I dare say one can conclude" or even in the bare, 7stripped down version you have put, "one can conclude". 8He is making conclusions. In other words, he is 9speculating on what is behind it. He may very well be 10right, but I am looking at the fact that you have made no 11attempt to appreciate the meaning of that word "wohl". 12"Im grossen kann man wohl feststellen" does not mean any 13degree of certainty at all on his part ---- 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I do not put that. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
--- he is saying, "By and large I dare say one can 16conclude", is he not? 17A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I do not say that, Mr Irving. I say "in general one may 18conclude" not "one must conclude" or "the fact is". I say 19"one may conclude". That is to say, the word "may" is 20permissive. It means you may conclude 60/40 or you may 21conclude something else. The probability is 60/40. It is 22what I would regard as a well informed estimate. 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
Do you now regret not having put in the word "perhaps" or 24"possible" or "dare say" in that sentence? 25A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Certainly not, I do not. I think my translation is 26perfectly all right there.

. P-24

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
Well, notwithstanding that you raise your voice and 2interrupt me, do you agree ---- 3A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, it makes a change from you raising your voice and 4interrupting me, Mr Irving. 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: Don't let us have you both... 6MR IRVING: Do you agree that it would have been better to 7include a proper translation of the word "wohl" in that 8sentence? 9A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It is a proper translation of that sentence. It is about 10the 15th time I have said that, Mr Irving. 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
I have to say this because -- I am not going to move on -- 12of course, you do rely on that, you agree that you rely on 13that sentence and the burden of that sentence quite 14heavily, in refuting me and suggesting that I have 15manipulated, suppressed and omitted words myself, is that 16right? 17A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, where is that in your description of these events 18which I deal with on the previous page? 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
Over the next 27 pages you repeatedly hark back to this 20one sentence. 21A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Can you direct me to where I repeatedly hark back to it? 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
I have just said, over the next 27 pages. 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Can you direct me to the exact pages and line numbers in 24which I refer to it? 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
We are going to come to them bit by bit. 26A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Then I cannot accept that statement of yours until you

. P-25

1actually do point me to the precise points where I rely 2and refer to that sentence. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
Do you agree that even in the stripped down version or 4truncated version of that sentence as presented by 5you ---- 6A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, I do not agree that it is stripped down or truncated. 7It is an accurate translation, Mr Irving. 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think you interrupted the question, 9Professor Evans. 10MR IRVING: Thank you very much. 11THE WITNESS: I have to dispute the premise, my Lord. 12MR IRVING: Do you agree that in the version of the sentence as 13presented by you, you are, even in that version it can be 14relied upon only as evidence against Goebbels and not as 15evidence against Adolf Hitler? It is the state of mind of 16Goebbels, not the state of mind of Adolf Hitler or the 17state of his knowledge or speculation. 18A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
This is the state, this is the state of knowledge of 19Goebbels, yes. Who has said that it is anything else? 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is this purporting to be a conversation between Hitler and 21Goebbels ---- 22A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No. Nobody says that. 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
This is Goebbels in Berlin reading a report that has been 24put on to his desk in Berlin, is that not right? 25A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
He appears to be reading a report from which he arrives at 26this estimate that one may conclude that 60 per cent of

. P-26

1the Jews pushed out to the East may be liquidated and 40 2per cent put to work, yes. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Why do you say he has been reading a report? 4A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, he says it seems to be that someone has informed 5about him about this, and maybe somebody has informed him 6verbally. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I see. 8A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I am sorry, I should not have said "reading". 9MR IRVING: My version of Goebbels diary has vanished, my Lord, 10but I believe I am right in saying that the preceding 11sentence, that precedes the part quoted, said something 12like "I have received an SD report", or something like 13that. 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
If I could see a copy, I could comment on that, if it is 15important. Certainly somebody has informed him that he 16has gained some information from somewhere and he is 17writing down what he has heard. 18MR IRVING: There is no indication in that diary because, as we 19said earlier, if there had been, he would have mentioned 20it, that Adolf Hitler had also received this report? 21A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, there is not. There is a statement here in which he 22goes on to link it to Hitler's views, by referring, as he 23so frequently does, and indeed as Hitler himself does, to 24the prophecy that Hitler issued on 30th January 1933, 25that, if the Jews, as he put it, started a new world war, 26they would be annihilated. He goes on to use the language

. P-27

1that indeed is Hitler's favourite language in referring to 2the extermination of the Jews ---- 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
You mean 1939, do you not? 4A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. Did I not say 39? I meant 39 -- a struggle for life 5and death between the Aryan race and the Jewish bacillus. 6This idea of a bacillus is a very common Hitler 7terminology. Goebbels is taking it over here. Then he 8goes on and says, "No other government and no other regime 9could muster the strength for a general solution to the 10question". "Here too", says Goebbels, "the Fuhrer is the 11persistent pioneer and spokesman of a radical solution 12which is demanded by the way things are and thus appears 13to be unavoidable". I take that to be the same kind of 14statement as is made about Lammers in what we have called 15the Schlegelberger memorandum. That is to say ---- 16MR IRVING: Please, can we keep very much to the questions? 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do not interrupt. 18A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That is to say, it is a statement about a number of 19occasions on which Hitler has said this thing, or revealed 20himself to be the persistent pioneer. So it is clearly 21talking about a number of occasions. It is not talking 22about a specific occasion on which he is shown a report 23to, or talked about it to, Hitler. That is what I would 24describe as the link between this diary entry and Hitler. 25MR IRVING: You do admit of course that there are other 26passages in these same diaries which show Hitler in

. P-28

1anything but a homicidal mood towards the Jews? 2A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Point them to me, please. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
I am not going to keep on falling for this game throughout 4the day, Professor Evans, because we have to get through a 5great deal today. 6A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Mr Irving, I cannot accept what you are saying without 7seeing the documentation, I am afraid. I think that is a 8perfectly reasonable thing to do. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am afraid it is. It does slow things down 10but I think, if you put a proposition to the witness, he 11is not inclined to agree to it unless he see the document 12you rely on, then he is entitled to ask you to look at it. 13MR IRVING: Turn to page 404 of your report, please. You will 14see several such passages referred to by you yourself. 15Goebbels diary April 26th, May 29th, 1942, Hitler's table 16talk May 15th, July 24th, 1942. Are those non-homicidal 17passages, if I can put them like that? 18A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
What I say is that you rely on them to show that Hitler 19did not know about the extermination of the Jews while 20Goebbels himself did. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. We are going to come to that in sequence, but you 22asked me to point you to those passages. I have now 23pointed you to them. 24A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I am pointing to the use you make of them, which is a 25slightly different thing. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: If we are coming to them in due course, then

. P-29

1let us wait until we do. 2MR IRVING: You are not claiming to be an expert on Goebbels 3and his relationship with Hitler, are you? 4A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
We have been through the nature of my expertise right at 5the very beginning, Mr Irving. 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
You are not claiming to be an expert on Goebbels and his 7relationship with Hitler, are you? 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think in these pages he necessarily is 9claiming that. 10MR IRVING: Very well. Are you aware of how often Dr Goebbels 11was with Hitler each year around this time? Would it be 12five or ten or 20 times a year? 13A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I have not counted, Mr Irving. You tell me. 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
The answer is you have not any idea, have you? 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is gratuitous. Put the number of 16times. 17A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It seems from the diary entries that I have read to have 18been fairly frequent over the years. 19MR IRVING: Fairly frequent. What do you mean by fairly 20frequent? 21A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Would you like to put to me a number? I have not counted, 22Mr Irving. What I am doing here is writing not so much 23about Goebbels and Hitler but about your account of 24Goebbels and Hitler. That is the purpose of my report. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, if it is your case that Goebbels 26was hardly ever seeing Hitler at this time, then I think

. P-30

1you ought to say so and, if necessary, give the number of 2times they would have net, or presumably spoken on the 3telephone, I do not know. 4MR IRVING: Can you accept that Dr Goebbels, in the year 1942, 5saw Adolf Hitler about ten times all told? I mean in 6private. 7A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Ah, that is a different matter. 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
As opposed to at mass meetings or something like that? 9A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I do find it difficult to accept anything you say, 10Mr Irving, without looking at the documentary basis for 11it. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
That makes life easier for you, does it not, but can you 13just answer the question? 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It does not. It makes life a lot more difficult, 15actually. 16Q.
[Mr Irving]
You do accept that I worked for 35 years on the Adolf 17Hitler book and I worked for nine years on the Goebbels 18biography, so that I am something of an expert on both 19people? 20A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
The question is how you worked, Mr Irving. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
Well, I am asking you a simple question. How many times 22do you think Goebbels actually visited Hitler in 1941 and 23in 42? 24A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I have and I am giving the answer. I have not counted. 25My purpose here is to look at your account and your 26manipulation of this entry of 27th March to support your

. P-31

1argument that Goebbels was concealing information about 2the extermination of the Jews from Hitler. That is my 3purpose here. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is it not the fact that, from 1939 onwards until 1944, 5after the bomb attempt on Hitler's life, 6their relationship can at best be described as distant? 7A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No. I do not really think that is true. 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
In view of the fact that Dr Goebbels as the Minister of 9Propaganda visited Hitler only about ten times per year 10during those years, is not that a distant relationship? 11A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
We do not know how many times they spoke on the phone. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
Have you seen any references in the Goebbels diaries to 13telephone calls from Adolf? 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Or to Adolf, no. I think Goebbels had a good knowledge of 15what Hitler knew and talked about. It occurs frequently 16in his diaries. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
If you express that opinion, you must have a pretty 18profound knowledge of Dr Goebbels, is that right? 19A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Not necessarily, no. I have read plenty of diary entries 20in which account -- these are the diaries entries I read 21in order to check up on the use you make of them. That is 22what I have done here. 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
Have you and your researchers read the entire entries of 24Dr Goebbels' diaries? 25A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Of course not. That would have been absolutely 26impossible. It is an enormously long collection of stuff

. P-32

1and that is not what we had to do. Our task was to look 2at the use you make of certain specific diary entries. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
Are you familiar from the correspondence that has been 4shown you in discovery that I invited various Goebbels 5experts, including Dr Frohlich and Dr Friedrich Karbermann 6and others who have worked on the Goebbels diaries like 7myself, whether they have come across one single entry 8which explicitly shows that Adolf Hitler was aware of the 9homicidal killings of the Jews in the Goebbels diaries? 10A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
The answer is no, there is no such entry? 12A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I do not accept that. 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
Have you not seen this correspondence? 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, sorry. The correspondence yes, but I do not accept 15the conclusion that you make of it. 16Q.
[Mr Irving]
You accept that they have read the diaries, unlike you, in 17their totality, but you do not accept what they say? 18A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Ah, sorry. I thought you were saying that is what you 19said. Then in that case you have to show me a letter in 20Dr. Frohlich says that he has never seen such a---- 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us short circuit this. Are you aware of 22any explicit acceptance, or document which shows explicit 23knowledge on Hitler's part of the extermination programme? 24A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, I think there is evidence in the diaries that he did 25know. In this particular entry, when Goebbels says, "The 26Fuhrer is the persistent pioneer and spokesman of a

. P-33

1radical solution", what else can he mean, except some 2degree of extermination, 60 per cent extermination, or 3more? He cannot mean at this stage, March 1942, that a 4radical solution is simply deporting them to the East. 5Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
You read that entry, just to summarize it, as Goebbels 6saying that what Globocnik is up to is in accordance with 7what the Fuhrer wants done? 8A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Hitler indeed has been a pioneer, persistent pioneer, of 9this radical solution. 10MR IRVING: Do you agree ---- 11A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
One can also look at the entry of 30th May 1942, which 12I cite at length in the letter of revision to my report 13that I sent on 10th January this year. Here again, 14I think there is a clear indication that this is recording 15a meeting of Hitler with Goebbels, a meeting between 16Hitler and Goebbels, where at the first paragraph Goebbels 17says that he presents the Fuhrer with his plan to evacuate 18the Jews out of Berlin with none remaining, Hitler is 19completely of his view, says Goebbels, and goes on to give 20orders and so on. "I plead once again for a more radical 21Jewish policy", this is on 30th May 1942, "whereby I am 22just pushing at an open door with the Fuhrer". 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
You have left out quite bit, have you not? 24A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, I will read the whole passage if you really want me 25to. I am trying to short things a bit. He goes on in the 26next paragraph to then say, "An extermination of criminals

. P-34

1is also a necessity of state policy", thus implying quite 2clearly in the previous paragraph that he has been talking 3about the extermination of Jews. So that is another 4indication to my mind. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
As you have raised this particular entry, will you go to 6the bundle I gave you this morning and turn to page 2? 7A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
It is sometimes quite helpful that you go off on these 9excursions. Is that pages of the Goebbels diary? 10A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
My Lord, do you have this particular document? 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do, yes. Thank you very much. 13MR IRVING: Is this diary a typescript diary on the large Adolf 14Hitler typewriter, or the large face typewriter? 15A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It is certainly large, unless it has been enlarged. 16Q.
[Mr Irving]
So this time Dr Goebbels was dictating the diary to his 17private secretary, Richard Otty, is that right, the 18stenographer? 19A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, I think so. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
He did so since July 1941, did he not? 21A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That is right, yes. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
So this is not in any sense a private diary any more full 23of top secrets. It is an official diary he is keeping? 24A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, I do not think it is an official diary. I think it is 25a private diary. There are certain things that he might 26feel he cannot say in it, which he could say when he was

. P-35

1writing it down in his own hand, but it is still a private 2diary. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
Was the Final Solution in its homicidal sense something 4that was top state secret, and not to be written down in 5private diaries or official diaries? 6A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Which do you mean? Official diaries or private diaries? 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
Look at the first page, page 2 in my little bundle. You 8will see that it starts off with, "Yesterday the military 9situation:". 10A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, he always start off like that. 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
It does not look like a private diary, does it? 12A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
He always starts off with the military situation. It is a 13private diary. He keeps tabs on the military situation. 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
On page 3, the last three lines, "The Fuhrer has returned 15from his headquarters to Berlin to speak to an officers' 16course in the Sport Palace". So Hitler has come to 17Berlin and Goebbels grabs the opportunity to have one of 18his rare meetings with him? 19A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, that is right. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
The next page is the part you then began reading? 21A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
Page 4, line 3? 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
"I briefed the Fuhrer once more on my plan, to evacuate 25the Jews completely from Berlin"? 26A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes.

. P-36

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
Why does he have to do it "once more"? Why did not Hitler 2leap at it and say, "Yes, sure, why are we waiting, what 3are we waiting for?" Why does Goebbels have to keep on 4putting this to Hitler if there was any eagerness on 5Hitler's part to deal with the Jews? 6A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Because some were remaining, and it is a new situation 7which seems to have emerged which has alarmed Goebbels, 8and which he goes on at some length about later in the 9entry. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
Then he continues. "It is entirely my opinion", gives 11Speers the job, "to take care as quickly as possible that 12the Jews who are working in the German arms factories, 13arms economy, are replaced by foreign workers"? 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
Then he continues with a piece you left out, "I see a 16major danger in the fact that there are still 40,000 Jews 17in the capital of the Reichs who would have nothing more 18to lose, who are running around free". 19A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is there not a provocation, and is it not just asking for 21assassination attempts, if that kind of thing happens, 22then you cannot sleep safely in your own bed? That is 23roughly what it says, is it not? 24A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That is right, yes. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
If I turn the page, we have now leapt forward. 26A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes.

. P-37

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
I think this is probably the part that you then begin 2quoting again. Halfway down, "The Germans take part in 3subversive movements only when the Jews lead them astray 4to it. That is why we have to liquidate the Jewish 5danger, cost what it may. How little the Jews in reality 6can fit in or assimilate to the Western European life you 7can see from the fact that, when they are sent back into 8the Ghetto, they very rapidly become ghettoised again". 9So he is talking about a geographical movement, is he not, 10they are in Western Europe and we are going to have to 11kick them out? 12A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, but this appears to be taken from Table Talk. The 13point about this entry is that it really subsumes two 14different conversations. The first of these appears to be 15a private conversation between Goebbels and Hitler, where 16he says, "I once more present the Fuhrer with my plan to 17evacuate the Jews out of Berlin". 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
What makes you think that this is ---- 19A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Sorry, this is quite explicit. The bit you left out 20I will go on: "Once these outrages or assassination 21attempts break out, then one's life is no longer safe". 22I will carry on reading. "The fact that even 22 year old 23Eastern Jews took part in the latest fire bomb attack 24speaks volumes. Thus I plead once again for a more 25radical Jewish policy whereby I am just pushing at an open 26door with the Fuhrer. The Fuhrer has the opinion that the

. P-38

1danger will become greater for us personally the more 2critical the war situation becomes. We find ourselves in 3a similar situation to that of the second half of 1932 4where bashing and stabbing were the order of the day, and 5one had to take all possible security measures to escape 6from such a development in one piece". 7 Then he goes on in a new paragraph, still this 8conversation with Hitler: "The extermination of criminals 9is also a necessity of state policy". 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, we have had that already. 11A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Let me give the German. The German gives actually a very 12strong feeling. Auch die Ausmerzung der Verbrechers: 13Literally also the extermination of criminals. 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
What does "ausmerzung" mean. 15A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Here it means the extermination -- he goes on to say 16exactly what he means. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
What does "auzmerzung" mean? 18A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Literally "extirpation". It is quite clear what it means 19here. He goes on to say, "Should the war situation become 20very dangerous at any time the prisoners will have in any 21case to be emptied through liquidations so that the danger 22does not arise at their one day opening their doors to let 23the revolting mob loose upon the people". That is quite 24clear there that he means by "ausmerzung" it is linked to 25liquidations and those two are linked to the previous 26paragraph.

. P-39

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
I appreciate why you are putting all this material in, but 2can we now come back to my question? 3A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, because you do not like this material being brought 4to anyone's attention do you, Mr Irving? You left it out 5in your work. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor Evans, you are reading from a 7translation. Where are you reading from? 8A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I am reading from pages 8-9 of the letter I sent on 10th 9January, my Lord. 10MR IRVING: I would prefer if we adhere to my 11cross-examination. 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: Pause a moment, Mr Irving. Your letter of 13what date? 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
10th January 2000, with amendments to my report. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yet another file which it is not very easy to find one's 16way through. Can anyone help me? I am looking in what is 17called Evans 2. 18MR RAMPTON: I think your Lordship might have put this, because 19it is amendments to the original report, in the front or 20the back of the main report. That is where I have put 21it. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: Quite right. 23MR IRVING: I really have to protest about these time wasting 24tactics of the witness throughout the last week. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, it does not help. This is in fact 26my fault if it is anybody's fault. I am trying to recall

. P-40

1where the translation is. 2MR IRVING: It disrupts the flow of the cross-examination, and 3I am sure this is not the intention of the witness but it 4is certainly the effect. 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: You will have to bear with me for a moment. 6Yes? 7A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Then may I just go on very briefly, my Lord? 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. 9A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I was about to point out the passage in the third 10paragraph of the Goebbels diaries after the again rather 11revealing sentence, "Therefore one must liquidate the 12Jewish danger", there is that word "liquidate" again. 13Then it appears to be almost identical to an account in 14the table talk for the same day. So Goebbels seems then 15to be switching over to summarizing what Hitler is saying 16in a much larger circle, during a meal, and about how 17little the Jews can assimilate themselves to West European 18life, and so on and so forth. There of course then he 19engages, as Hitler customarily does in the table talk, in 20a much less direct kind of language, and a more vague kind 21of description. Hence he then starts to go on about 22settling the Jews in central Africa and so on. 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, Mr Irving. 24MR IRVING: I am being enormously patient. We will come back 25to the line of cross-examination. Can I refer you back to 26page 5 of the little bundle? We just looked at the

. P-41

1passage, you will remember (44 at the top, handwritten 5 2at the bottom). I will continue: "That is why you have 3to liquidate the Jewish danger, whatever it may cost. How 4little that the Jews are able to assimilate themselves to 5western European life you see from the fact that, as soon 6as they are sent back to the ghetto, they very rapidly 7become ghettoised again". I do hope we are not going to 8have any more discursions or excursions now. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Carry on with the question. 10MR IRVING: Yes. Over the page: "Western European 11civilisation is for them just an external veneer". Then 12he goes on to talk about the fact that among the Jews 13there are elements who go to work with a dangerous 14brutality and vengeance: "This is why the Fuhrer also 15does not want that they are sent to Siberia, that they are 16evacuated to Siberia". The that word "evacuiert" there is 17quite clearly geographical, is it not, not homicidal? 18A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Not necessarily, no. The word evacuiert is quite 19frequently used. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
You cannot say "killed to Siberia," can you? 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: In that context, it must be in its literal 22meaning---- 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Evacuated to Siberia, the word "evacuation" can sometimes 24mean by this time it can be a camouflage, or the whole 25phrase "evacuating to Siberia" and all the talk about---- 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, but Mr Irving's point is not here.

. P-42

1MR IRVING: But under the harshest conditions of life they 2would certainly become a virile element again, would they 3not, as he says? He would most of all like to send them 4to Central Africa. How do you translate "am 5liebsten"? He would rather send them to Central Africa? 6A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
He would prefer to send them, or he would most like to 7send them. 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
If it was "prefer", it would be "lieber", would it not? 9"Am liebsten" is most of all he would like to send them 10to Central Africa? 11A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Most of all he would like to send them, he would most like 12to. 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
Most of all, above what? Above Siberia? Above the East? 14Above Riga and Minsk? Most of all he wants to send them 15to Central Africa? Is this what Adolf Hitler is really 16about, as reported by Goebbels? 17A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. He seems to be saying that, and he says exactly the 18same in his table talk. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
You rather toned it down in your translation by saying he 20would rather send them to Central Africa, did you not? 21A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I do not think that is toning it down at all, Mr Irving. 22It is clear from my translation what his preference is, or 23what he claims his preference is rather, in this rather 24camouflaged conversation at the dining table. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
There they would live in a climate that would certainly 26make them strong and resistance or resistive again. At

. P-43

1any rate it is the Fuhrer's aim, and I am translating very 2loosely as I go along, at any rate it is the Fuhrer's aim 3to make Western Europe completely free of the Jews? 4A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
Here they may not have a national home any more? 6A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That is right. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
So he is talking purely geography, is he not? He is not 8talking gas chambers, if I can put it like that. He is 9talking geography. He is saying well, the East, Siberia, 10Africa, anywhere but Western Europe. 11A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes I think this is---- 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
This is real Hitler. This is not Goebbels. This is not 13his gloss, is it? 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, nor is the previous account of what Hitler is 15saying. As I say, he is here at the dining table and he 16is really camouflaging. This is camouflage language. 17Quite a number of subjects, as you have said yourself, 18Mr Irving, were taboo at the dining table. Hitler talked 19in very vague terms and on pages 10 to 11 of my letter of 2010th January I quote the table talk for that day at some 21length, which is almost exactly ---- 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
You quote everything at some length. 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I am sorry? 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
You quote everything at some length. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is not a helpful intervention. 26MR IRVING: We are very short of time, my Lord, and this has

. P-44

1taken far longer---- 2A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
The problem is, Mr Irving, I have to quote things at 3length because you leave so much out that is inconvenient 4to your thesis. 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us skip the argument and get on with the 6questions and the answers. 7MR IRVING: Do you agree that the Final Solution was top state 8secret in its homicidal sense, that all the SS documents 9and the documents generated by the SS gangsters were top 10state secret? 11A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Those are two rather different questions, or points. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
What I am asking about is this. Is this diary being 13dictated to a Civil Servant, a lowly Civil Servant, and 14every day Goebbels is taking him out at the beginning of 15every morning and spending, sometimes it is 150 pages long 16for one day, this diary? 17A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is one likely, therefore, to be able to put, with any 19safety, a homicidal interpretation on any passages in the 20diary if it was top state secret? 21A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
One assumes that, like all secretaries, he was pledged to 22confidentiality. 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I ask you a slightly different question 24because I am not sure I understand this. The original 25part, the first part, of this diary entry you say is 26private diary entry in the ordinary sense of that term?

. P-45

1A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 2Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Suddenly in the middle of it you say Goebbels sort of 3flips into reproducing the table talk of the 29th May? 4A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It is not reproducing, my Lord. He is really summarizing 5two different conversations, one he has had with Hitler 6alone it appears, or in a very small group of people, and 7the second one simply goes on seamlessly. 8Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
That is what is so odd about it, why should he go on 9seamlessly to do that when it is inconsistent with what is 10in the earlier part, which you say is straight forward 11diarising? 12A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It seems strange, but I think there are similarities 13between what he says there in the second part of that, and 14the table talk. They are too striking to allow of any 15other conclusion. 16Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
I accept that, but what strikes me as odd is that he 17should reproduce in his diary camouflage language used by 18Hitler in his table talk. 19A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
These are the golden words of his Fuhrer. He will put 20them down because he has heard them to preserve them for 21posterity. 22Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
But they do not mean what they say? 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No. 24MR IRVING: You are saying that the whole of this talk about 25Siberia and central Africa and so on is hog wash? 26A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes.

. P-46

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
Do you have any evidence for that kind of thought? Is 2that just your speculation again? 3A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
The evidence is what is going on at the same time. We are 4talking now the end of May 1942 ---- 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
And the killings have started, have they not? 6A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
They had more than started, gassings and death camps are 7in full swing. 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
So either Hitler is totally in the dark as to what is 9going on, or he is the biggest hypocrite there has been? 10A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I would go for the second of those two alternatives, Mr 11Irving. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
Do you have any evidence for that apart from your own gut 13feeling? 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It is quite clear. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
Even one line, even one document? 16A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, I have already quoted two. Again, comparing the two 17halves of this diary entry, when he links the 18extermination of criminals, the liquidations of prisoners, 19to his earlier talk about the evacuation of the Jews. 20Even here Goebbels is using words like evacuation, but it 21is a give away in the second paragraph. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yet at about the same time at the end of March, early 23April, we have had Schlegelberger document, Hitler wanting 24everything postponed until the war was over? 25A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
We have already been through this document at great 26length, Mr Irving, I do not accept what you say about the

. P-47

1so-called Schlegelberger memorandum. 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
Was it not typical of Hitler's desire to postpone tricky 3things until the war was over, until the fighting had 4stopped? Did he not do that with several problems? 5A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I do not see this in this diary entry. 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
Will you please look at page 7, and then you will see it? 7A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Page 7 of what? Yours? 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
Numbered page 60 at the top. 9A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Right. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
I will read to you the middle paragraph in English. We 11briefly then touch upon the church question. Here the 12Fuhrer has reached a decision which is absolutely 13irreversible. He tells me to take care that nothing is 14done, that there is complete silence about the church 15question. 16A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Public silence. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
The hour would come when we would then be able to speak 18more clearly than ever. Is this not another example of 19Hitler saying, "hey, put that on the back burner, too"? 20A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I think this derives from the problems which they had in 21the previous autumn with Cardinal von Galen. After some 22discussion, it was decided, Cardinal von Galen's protest 23about the euthanasia, the Nazi leadership decided that 24during the war it would be too upsetting to morale to make 25a serious attack on the church and start arresting 26cardinals and the like.

. P-48

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
I refer you to page 404, to footnote 22 ---- 2A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
This is my report? 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
Of your report. 4A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
Page 404, footnote 22, of your report where you show the 6kind of problems the Final Solution was causing, mixed 7marriages, you remember the Gotshalt case, the suicide of 8the entire family and so on, and Hitler saying to Goebbels 9try to avoid causing problems? 10A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. We already discussed this at length in talking about 11the so-called Schlegelberger memorandum that, while 12I think the Nazi leadership had little problem in deciding 13what to do with the vast majority of Jews in Europe, i.e. 14kill them, they had a lot of difficulties in deciding what 15to do with Jews in mixed marriages, married to non-Jews 16and with half Jews, and mixed, so-called mixed race Jews. 17That is quite clear. It runs through all 18the documentation connected with the so-called 19Schlegelberger memorandum, and here it is again. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
You rely in your reply to this Goebbels entry on page 402, 21paragraph 5, you refer to a July 1941 statement by Hitler 22about the Jewish family becoming a breeding ground for 23bacilli, do you remember that? 24A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, "Bazillenherd fur eine neue Zersetzung". 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
But you agree that at that time, of course, there was no 26plan to liquidate Europe's Jews, it was still a

. P-49

1geographical solution, so that is totally irrelevant in 2this context, is it not? 3A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I do not think it is irrelevant, no. It is a general 4statement, rather like his statement in a speech of 30th 5January 1939 ---- 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
You put it in as a bit of a red herring. 7A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, it is a very conditional statement. 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
Hoping that ---- 9A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It is an "if" statement. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
--- we would not remember that your argument is that 11Hitler's speech to the Gauleiters in December 1941 was the 12trigger point. So July 1941, that is totally irrelevant 13to the argument about Hitler's homicidal intent? 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I do not think it is irrelevant to Hitler's general hatred 15of the Jews. I am using it there because of this popular, 16this favourite phrase or word of "bacilli". 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
The next question is on page 403, two lines from the 18bottom, and I ask this with great trepidation because it 19may unleash another torrent, you say: "Why did include", 20why did Goebbels include, "so many passages in his diaries 21which showed that he himself favoured the mass 22extermination of Jews?" Where are these many passages, 23which ones are you referring to? I cannot think of the 24"mass extermination of Jews" referred to in many passages 25in the Goebbels' diaries. 26MR RAMPTON: I think Mr Irving should ask questions and not

. P-50

1make speeches, my Lord. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well ... 3MR IRVING: Is this ---- 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: The question you are being asked is where do 5you say Goebbels shows himself to favour the extermination 6of Jews? 7MR IRVING: "Mass extermination of Jews". The fact that he 8said, "We cannot have Jews running around Berlin who may 9assassinate me", that kind of thing, is readily proved, 10but it is these throw away lines that are put into the 11report without footnotes or source notes that concern me. 12A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, I will treat that as a question even though in a way 13it was not. It is on page 400, again talking about 60 per 14cent of the Jews being liquidated. Now, that seems to me 15on any measure mass extermination. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: Because you say he is quite clearly approving 17what he is describing? 18A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. It seem to be pretty clear, and he goes on to say 19that Hitler approved of it as well. 20MR IRVING: I guess the question ---- 21A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Let me have, let me have another ---- 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
--- I am really asking is, is there another passage apart 23from that? 24A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
All right, well, let us just go... 25MR RAMPTON: My Lord, this is very unfair. This is not a 26memory test. This gentleman has written a detailed

. P-51

1report. He summarizes what he is talking about on pages 2410 to 416 of his report. I am sorry that he did not 3remember it, but, I mean, really!. 4A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I just got to there. I think I will just direct you to 5the Goebbels diaries entries on page 412, 414, Jews 6experiencing their own annihilation, I mean, I really do 7not want to read all of these out. 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do please, if you do not mind, 412, 414? 9A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
14, then the pages 8, 9 of my letter of 10th January, so 10these are some ... 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, what is not clear at the moment to 12me, partly because of that question, is whether you are 13contesting the fact that Goebbels knew perfectly well what 14was going on. 15MR IRVING: What I am contesting is that there are many 16passages in his diary which showed that he applauded the 17mass extermination of Jews which is the wording used by 18this witness in his report, but I will now move on ---- 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: Now would you answer my question? Is it your 20case that Goebbels did not know about the mass 21exterminations that were going on at this time? 22MR IRVING: He had visited the Baltic states. He had actually 23heard about executions that had gone on there, just 24briefly. That was November 1941. He had received this SD 25report. He had received the Wannsee Conference report 26which was ambiguous. He had received this SD report on

. P-52

1March 27th 1942 which gives him cause to speculate on what 2is obviously happening, if I can put it like that. 3THE WITNESS: But in Hitler's War 1977, Mr Irving, you write: 4"The ghastly secrets of Auschwitz and Treblinka were 5well-kept. Goebbels wrote a frank summary of them in his 6diary on March 27th 1942, but evidently held his tongue 7when he met Hitler two days later". 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 9A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
And you talk again in that 1991 in a similar way so... 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can I draw your attention, therefore, to a passage in 11Picker, Henry Picker, on April 4th 1942 which you are 12probably familiar with. I will read it to you. It was 13"characteristic that the upper classes who had never 14shown the slightest sympathy for the suffering and plight 15of the German emigres", and he uses the word "aus 16wanderer", and you will understand why I am emphasising 17that? 18A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
"... now claim to show sympathy for the Jews, although the 20Jews had their accomplices around the entire world and 21were the most climate hardened species there were. The 22Jews prospered everywhere", he said, "in even Lapland and 23Siberia". Does this not also show that on April 4th 1942 24Hitler is talking purely in terms of his geographical 25solution? It may have been a pipe dream. 26A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, no, it does not. I mean, there are murderous

. P-53

1statements here. He is attacking the so-called 2bourgeoisie, and even here it says, "If for reasons of 3State, one renders a definite racial pest harmless, for 4example, by beating him to death", very nice, "then the 5entire bourgeoisie cries out that the State is a violent 6State. If, however, the Jew", and here, well, "the Jew 7with judicial chicanery robs the German person of his 8professional existence, takes his house and home from him, 9destroys his family and finally drives him to emigration, 10and the German person then loses his life on the journey 11to his emigration destination, then the bourgeoisie ... 12(reading to the words) ... entire tragedy has been played 13out within the context of the possibilities offered by the 14law." And earlier on, of course -- that, of course, 15describes in a kind of upside-down way precisely what the 16Nazis were doing to the Jews themselves. And on talking 17about -- another bit that you left out, Mr Irving, he is 18talking about Hitler (again absurdly) that "the 19Bourgeoisie did not concern itself with the fact that 20250,000 to 300,000 German people were emigrating from 21Germany a year", that meant, I think, in the late 19th 22century, "and about 75 per cent of the German emigrants to 23Australia already died during the journey". That is more 24even than Goebbels 60 per cent. Emigration here, in 25Hitler's mind ---- 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
So what conclusions do you draw from these lengthy

. P-54

1passages you are reading out? 2A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Emigration in Hitler's mind here is quite clearly 3connected with mass death. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
That is the conclusion? Purely that emigration is 5connected with mass death? 6A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It seems be in this passage, yes. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
So you agree that Hitler was considering geographical 8emigration every time he mentions these passages at this 9time? 10A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, connected with mass death. I mean, you take Jews 11from France or Serbia or Greece and you take them to 12Poland, that is mass emigration, but that is not all that 13happened, is it? They were killed when they got there. 14The two things are connected. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
So you are saying that when Hitler is talking about them 16emigrating to Lapland or Siberia or Central Africa, or all 17these other places he is talking about, or Madagascar, 18what he is saying is he will arrange that they get killed 19when they get there? What is the point of the emigration 20then? 21A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No. There is also an element of camouflage in simply 22using the term "emigration" or "transportation", so ---- 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
So your entire case depends on the fact that when he says 24one thing he means another ---- 25A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Wait a minute, Mr Irving. I mean, also the notion that in 26the middle of 1942 that Hitler was actually serious

. P-55

1about ---- 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
Madagascar? 3A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
--- transporting Jews to Madagascar is absurd because he 4had already personally ordered the stop to the Madagascar 5programme at the beginning of the year and, as for 6Lapland, that is even more ridiculous or Siberia. I mean, 7this is just camouflage in his case. 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
Why would the Madagascar plan have been absurd then? 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think we have been through that many times. 10MR IRVING: My Lord, we have one more document I wish to show 11him, my Lord. Would you please go, therefore, to page 23 12of the bundle? Do you know who Hassow van Evstorf was? 13A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
You tell me. I cannot see him mentioned. 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
Hassow van Evstorf was the later Ambassador to the United 15Kingdom after the war. So he was not a neo-Nazi, was he? 16A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I do not -- where is this? 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
I just say that in advance. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Page 23. 19MR IRVING: Does your Lordship have it? 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. 21MR IRVING: It is the transcript of Hassow van Evstorf. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: This is van Evstorf's notes? 23MR IRVING: My Lord, Hassow van Evstorf's notes are actually in 24this blue volume I am holding in my hand. This is from my 25own archive. Hassow van Evstorf took handwritten notes as 26the liaison officer between Ribbentrop and the German High

. P-56

1Command, so he was informed on an immediate basis of all 2the latest developments and secret happenings. Two 3paragraphs from the bottom, he had a paragraph -- this is 4the transcript of his handwritten notes, April 4th 1942 -- 5"A Japanese enquiry whether they will be permitted to 6occupy Madagascar", completing, no doubt, the triangle 7Singapore, Columbia, Madagascar,"has been answered in a 8positive sense. We would not take part in the operation. 9We are looking for a joint coalition warfare in the 10Persian Gulf" ----- 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sorry. The significance of that totally 12escapes me. 13MR IRVING: Well, I shall ask some more questions. Was Japan 14an ally of Nazi Germany? 15A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 16Q.
[Mr Irving]
So if Japan had occupied Madagascar, as was envisaged by 17this joint operation by this top level discussion between 18the German High Command and the Japanese High Command, 19then, of course, it would have been perfectly feasible to 20have completed the Madagascar plan? 21A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I think that is rather a large leap, Mr Irving. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
So the talk of the fact that ---- 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That depends. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
--- Madagascar in May 1942 was occupied by the British is 25neither here more there? 26A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
The point here is on 10th February 1942 (and we have

. P-57

1already been through this some days ago) the Foreign 2official who proposed the plan for deporting the Jews to 3Madagascar wrote that "Gruppenfuhrer Heydrich has been 4charged with the Fuhrer of carrying out the solution to 5the Jewish question in Europe. The war against the Soviet 6Union has opened up the possibility of placing other 7territories at our disposal for the Final Solution. 8Accordingly, the Fuhrer has decided that the Jews should 9be pushed off, not to Madagascar, but to the East. 10Madagascar, therefore, does not need to be foreseen for 11the Final Solution any more". 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
You are familiar with that document? 13A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That is absolutely clear and explicit about the ---- 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can I ask you some questions about who wrote that 15document? 16A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
-- that is from Rademacher. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
Who wrote the document? 18A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Rademacher. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
Did Rademacher ever once in his life have a meeting with 20Hitler? 21A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
He says here, "The Fuhrer has decided" ---- 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
Will you answer my question? 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Time and again, Mr Irving, if you do not like a document, 24you start saying, "It is a product of his imagination". 25This is quite clearly ---- 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
Answer my question.

. P-58

1A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
--- this is not a top Foreign Office official. It is 2quite conceivable that Ribbentrop or somebody else has 3told him that this is Hitler's decision. It does not need 4to see Hitler to have this decision here. Hitler has 5decided in February 1942 that the Madagascar plan is out. 6It is quite clearly not practical. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
It is very difficult to conduct a cross-examination if you 8do not answer my questions. Did Rademacher ever see 9Hitler? 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think the answer i Professor Evans does 11not know, but the point he has made (and you may not 12accept it, Mr Irving) is that does not need to have seen 13Hitler in order to know and to say that Hitler has time 14and again said "Madagascar is off the menu". That is what 15he said. 16MR IRVING: May I by my questions now elicit the probable 17source of Rademacher's information? In view of the fact 18that the Rademacher document is in the same file as the 19Wannsee Conference report, right? 20A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is it not likely, in fact, that Rademacher had simply read 22the Wannsee Conference report in which precisely this 23concept was stated by Heydrich that they are now going to 24be shipping them out to the east, and that Rademacher is 25doing no more than just putting into another document what 26he has read in the Wannsee report. It is nothing to do

. P-59

1with direct information from Hitler. This is now third or 2fourth hand information? 3A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I not say it was direct information from Hitler, but, 4nevertheless, I do not think that people in Third Reich 5spoke so or wrote so, explicitly wrote in memos so 6explicitly about Hitler's orders and decisions unless they 7had very good reason for doing so. 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
And yet you cannot ---- 9A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
They did not invent these things. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
You cannot wish away that July 24th 1942 table talk by 11Hitler in which he says, "We are going to send them to 12Madagascar". So Madagascar is wrong and this table talk 13is right or is it the other way around? 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It is the other way around. The table talk is quite clear 15camouflage. Hitler has commented on the table talk on 1613th May 1942 that England is not going to surrender 17Madagascar. He knows that perfectly well ---- 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
There were all sorts of places that England was not going 19to surrender ---- 20A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It is a total fiction. It is a total fiction. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are talking over the witness and I 22personally think Madagascar is a bit of a side track, and 23I think we have had enough on Madagascar. 24MR IRVING: I strongly agree, but the suggestion that England 25could say, "We are not going to surrender", do you 26remember a place called Singapore which was surrendered to

. P-60

1the Japanese. 2A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It is rather a different matter. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: It did not happen in Madagascar, Mr Irving. 4Why do we not get back to what you were on before which is 5really more, I think, central? 6MR IRVING: I agree, but occasionally these little excursions 7are inflicted on me. Page 405 of your report, please. 8You are stating that, "I did not publish the passage from 9Goebbels diary" -- this is towards the end of paragraph 101. 11A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
"'We speak in conclusion about the Jewish question. Here 13the Fuhrer remains, now as before, unrelenting. The Jews 14must get out of Europe, if necessary, with the application 15of the most brutal means'"? 16A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
What inference do you draw from that -- a homicidal 18inference? 19A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
At this time, in March 1942, it is very difficult to draw 20any other inference than that. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
It was not the midnight knock of the Gestapo and 22instructions to get packed within two hours and you are 23only allowed to carry 28 pounds with you, and bring all 24your money and valuables -- was that not pretty brutal and 25unrelenting? 26A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Pretty brutal, yes.

. P-61

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
Pages 405 to 6 ---- 2A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
The question, Mr Irving, is really about your omission of 3the statement that the Fuhrer is unrelenting. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
But I also omitted the part where it says that the Jews 5must get out of Europe which would have counterbalanced 6it ---- 7A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
"With the application of the most brutal means". 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
At the top of page 406, you quite rightly point out that I 9have a date, March 20th, when it should have been March 1030th, is that right? 11A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
Will you concede that that is immaterial? 13A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, I will not, most certainly not. 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
Why is it not immaterial? 15A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, because, let me go back to what you say in 1977, 16Hitler's War: "Ghastly secrets of Auschwitz and Treblinka 17were well kept. Goebbels wrote a frank summary of them in 18his diary on March 27 1942, but evidently held his tongue 19when he met Hitler two days later for he quotes only 20Hitler's remark, 'The Jews must get out of Europe. If 21need be, we must resort to the most brutal methods'.". 22 So, you maintain that he made that statement 23about, which I just quoted, two days after Goebbels wrote 24this summary on March 27th. In fact, what you are trying 25to do is to give the impression -- let me just find where 26I am on my notes.

. P-62

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
Would it surprise you to hear that the error has been ---- 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Please let the witness answer. 3A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
What you do is to quote Hitler, "The Jews must get out of 4Europe" from the diary of 20th March as if it was from 530th March, in other words, he made that statement before 6Goebbels made a frank summary. It is true that Goebbels 7made a frank summary of the extermination in March, but it 8is not true that he concealed it when he met Hitler two 9days later because the quote that you use to support your 10view that Hitler did not know about it after this frank 11summary on 27th March is lifted from a week earlier in the 12diary and not from two days later where it is not there. 13So I do think this is a clear piece of manipulation. This 14diary is written in chronological order. It is very 15difficult to get that date wrong. 16MR IRVING: Would it surprise you to hear that the error has 17been corrected in the later editions completely ---- 18A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I know that the error has been corrected in the later 19edition. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
Will you not interrupt me -- completely painlessly and 21without the slightest damage to the arguments that I have 22advanced? 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It has been corrected in the later -- in the 1991 edition, 24but, of course, there you omit all mention of the "ghastly 25secrets of Auschwitz and Treblinka" because you do not 26believe they existed, these secrets any more, whatever

. P-63

1they are, and it makes it easier in 1991 for you because 2you deny the gas chambers and also it has all been done on 3the initiative of Himmler and Goebbels, so ---- 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can we try to keep to the actual question that I am asking 5or we are not going to cover the ground today. Would you 6look at page 408, the footnote -- 407, the footnote? 7A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, in order to answer the question about your changing 8the text in 1991, one has to give the context. Here again 9what you do not omit is the idea that Goebbels was 10concealing this information from Hitler. This time you, 11in fact, make it more general. You uncouple it from any 12specific meeting. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am afraid I must have a look at that? Have 14you got the page there? 15A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That again is in my letter of 10th of ---- 16Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
But have you got the page reference in ---- 17A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Hitler's War. 18Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
--- 1991 of Hitler's War? 19MR RAMPTON: It is page 464. It is in the second part, my 20Lord. 21A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
464. 22MR RAMPTON: It is a paragraph which starts: "Dr Goebbels, 23agitating from Berlin". It goes down to the end of the 24paragraph at 465. 25A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Here it says, "Although he held", that is Goebbels, "his 26tongue when meeting his Fuhrer" which suggests on every

. P-64

1occasion that he met him he held his tongue about, well... 2MR IRVING: What he knew? 3A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
What he knew, yes. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
Do you have any evidence otherwise? 5A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, we have already been through this. 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
Well, do you have any evidence in any of the files that 7Goebbels told Hitler: "Mein Fuhrer, there is something 8I have to tell you that I have found out"? 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think we have had that, and I think the 10answer is there are two documents to which you point 11Professor Evans to support his contention that Hitler 12knew, had been told by Goebbels. 13MR IRVING: No, Goebbels telling Hitler which is something 14slightly different, my Lord. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: There are those two documents. We had this 16point a little while ago, did we not? 17A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, we have dealt with it. 18MR IRVING: Which arguments are you referring to, Professor? 19I have to know what I am answering here. Which documents 20are you referring to? Goebbels telling Hitler about the 21Final Solution ---- 22A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Do I really have to go through this again? 23MR IRVING: --- in a homicidal sense. 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: If can find it, I will just -- if you know 25the dates of the documents, we are not going to go through 26them again, but I do not have them. One is 30th ----

. P-65

1A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
27th March and 30th May, I think, from memory. 2Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
30th May is one and 27th March? 3MR IRVING: The one that I gave you as the facsimile, your 4Lordship? 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: We can go all over it again, Mr Irving, but 6we have ---- 7MR IRVING: I do not really want to, but I cannot allow this 8court assumes that this final gap has been bridged by the 9bald statement that there are ---- 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: The court is not assuming anything; it is 11listening to what Professor Evans has said and he has said 12that one document is 30th May ---- 13MR IRVING: Which is the ---- 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- and the other is 27th March. You know 15which those two documents are. You may not agree with 16what Professor Evans says, but you know why he says what 17he does. 18MR IRVING: But 3rd May is the Siberian one and that is the 19exact opposite? 20A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Sorry... 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: All right. We will go through it all over 22the again. 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
29th May, yes. 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: 29th May. 25MR IRVING: 29th May? 26A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. That is the diary entry of 30th May for the previous

. P-66

1day. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can you give me the page reference in your 3report? 4A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
This is pages 8 to 9 of my supplementary letter, my Lord. 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: What do you want to ask about that, 6Mr Irving? 30th May 1942. 7MR IRVING: 30th May 1942, is this? 8A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
This is the passage that we went through about 20 minutes 10ago. 11A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is exactly what I have just suggested, 13that we have actually been through these two documents in 14some detail. Do we need to go back and go through them 15all over again? 16MR IRVING: No, I do not because I would not accept that this 17is evidence of Goebbels telling Hitler about a homicidal 18Final Solution. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: I follow you do not accept it, but Professor 20Evans says the opposite, you see. 21MR IRVING: But this is what I call the Siberia reference which 22showed is exactly the opposite sense, and unless one 23assumes that evacuating Siberia is a euphemism for 24killing? 25A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I am very loath to go into this all over again, my Lord. 26I think it is clear.

. P-67

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can you just state simply ---- 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: What is the benefit? We have been through 3this. I can go back and get it up on the screen, but we 4have been through this document in some detail. 5MR IRVING: We have indeed, but can I just ask ---- 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: I know what you say about it, I know what 7Professor Evans says about it and, in the end, I have to 8decide what a sensible, objective historian would make of 9it. 10MR IRVING: Professor Evans, one simple question then and I 11hope you can answer yes or no, is your belief that the 12phrase evacuating to Siberia and evacuating to Lapland are 13euphemisms for killing when used by Hitler? 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I cannot this yes or no because that is not the key 15passage in this entry of 30th May 1942. The key passages 16come earlier. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
Then we will move on. Will you now look at the footnote 18on pages 407 and 408? 19A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, I apologise for the glitch in the word processor 20there. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
It actually begins five lines from the bottom, does it 22not? 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, it has repeated a whole lot. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
On the second line from the bottom, you find the words 25"auswanderten" and "auswanderer", is that right? 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: Where are you, Mr Irving?

. P-68

1MR IRVING: I Professor Evans' report. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: You must remember that I have to follow what 3you are putting. 4MR IRVING: I am moving too fast, my Lord. 407 to 408. We are 5looking at the footnote that begins on the foot of page 6407. My simple question is two lines from the bottom, 7does the witness see the words "auswanderten" and 8"auswanderer" and it follows over, two lines down on the 9same footnote on the facing page, "Auswanderung" and 10"Auswanderungsziel". 11A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
How would you translate the root "auswanderer" there, 13"emigrate" or "kill"? 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
We have already been through this. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
Well, just a simple answer will ---- 16A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, I cannot give a simple answer because it is a loaded 17question. That is the problem with your questions, 18Mr Irving. I have already been through this document and 19I have noted that when Hitler states that Germans 20emigrated, which is the meaning of the word "auswanderer", 21from Germany in the 19th century, in his view 75 per cent 22of them died. It is a deadly process. We have no 23evidence for that. It is a completely absurd idea, they 24did not, but that is his view of emigration. There is a 25clear connection there. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, but do you ----

. P-69

1A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
And then he goes on to talk about the way in which he 2thought that Jews drove Germans to emigrate in a way that 3describes exactly the way, in fact, that the Germans drove 4the Jews to emigrate. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
This is purely and etymological exercise, Professor. How 6would you translate then "Jewish emigration" in the 7emigrating sense, not the killing sense? 8A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, I mean, you enter reservations about the point of 9indulging in purely etymological exercises ---- 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can you just answer the question? Would it be "Juden 11Auswanderung"? 12A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
--- given the misuse that you make of them. But, of 13course, it means "emigration". I have said that 14repeatedly. That is the literal meaning of the word 15"Auswanderung". 16Q.
[Mr Irving]
What German word would you use for "Jewish emigration"? 17"Juden Auswanderung"? 18A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Something like that, yes, "Judische Auswanderung", 19whatever. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is that not precisely the word used in the September 1942 21document that we are going to be looking at later? 22A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, let us have a look at it. 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can we tackle things in sequence, Professor ---- 24A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, you are the one who introduced the September 25document, Mr Irving, I did not. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
--- otherwise we are not going to complete today. We will

. P-70

1come to that document in sequence and in the order that 2I dictate and not the order that you dictate. 3A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
You have just said you want to discuss it now, Mr Irving. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
I am discussing it now. 5A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Now you are accusing me of bringing it up out of 6sequence. This is ridiculous. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: This is all degenerating. 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
I am discussing it now ---- 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor Evans, do not be provoked and, 10Mr Irving, can we try to get on? 11MR IRVING: Yes. 12A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It is very hard, my Lord. 13MR IRVING: My Lord, the reason I did it here is because in 14this one footnote the word "Auswanderer" is used five or 15six times in the clearly emigrating sense. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: We have been over this many times. 17"Auswanderung" can be used euphemistically, but it is not 18always used euphemistically. 19MR IRVING: It is a rubber word. 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: But can I ask just about a general question 21which I think can be answered quite briefly? The table 22talk on page 407 of your report and the Goebbels diary 23entry on page 408 talk in terms of getting the Jews out of 24Europe? 25A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 26Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Do you regard either of those documents because that is

. P-71

1what they are, as being on their face sinister? 2A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, I do, my Lord. I mean, I think by this time ---- 3Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Because it is euphemistic or for some other reason? 4A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It is euphemistic and particularly in the table talk in 5May 1942 this linkage of mass death with emigration, not 6to mention the statements about beating racial pests to 7death. I mean, they are wrapped up -- he is, of course, 8trying to be euphemistic and then spins these ridiculous 9fantasies about the climatic, supposed climatic, 10resilience of Jews and so on. But they are both rather 11sinister, particularly when you take into account what was 12happening in the extermination camps at this time. 13MR IRVING: With respect, I suggest the word "sinister" is 14wrong. "Homicidal" is probably what his Lordship meant. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: I was using a euphemism as well, if you like, 16but I thought everybody understood what the term meant. 17A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, I certainly did. 18MR IRVING: But would you not expect precisely this kind of 19conversation to happen around the dinner table if somebody 20said, "Adolf, we are getting word from the BBC and from 21Voice of America, whatever it is, that killings are 22happening and that the Jews are dying like flies in the 23East", whereupon Hitler says, "So what! Look at the way 24our people suffered"? Is it not exactly that kind of 25conversation that you are looking at here? It is a "so 26what" conversation, is it not?

. P-72

1A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I am not sure I follow the argument there. 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is it not Adolf Hitler being tough, talking tough to his 3dinner table people saying, "Show these people no mercy. 4Look at how our people suffered when the boot was on the 5other foot"? 6A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
He certainly is saying that, yes. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
So, in other words, although it is tough talk, it is not 8necessarily Adolf Hitler saying, "Yes, we are killing them 9too like flies"? 10A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That does not follow at all, Mr Irving. 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, thank you very much. 12A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
When I say "it does not follow at all", I mean your 13conclusion does not follow at all. Let us get that quite 14clear what I mean by that. I think you might have 15misunderstood it. I do not think that because he is 16talking tough, it is just tough talk, that there is a 17reality behind it with which he is quite aware. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, but there is no evidence for that in these lines. I 19do not want to start nit-picking, but it is just tough 20talk that is recorded at this dinner table conversation? 21A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, this is the leader of ---- 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
Ugly talk? 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: We can go through it, Mr Irving, if you want 24to, but I have the witness's answer and I know you do not 25agree with it, but I have the witness's answer. 26A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
The question is that Goebbels, of course, was quite aware

. P-73

1that resettlement meant that the Jews were being killed -- 260 per cent of them were being killed, he says in his 3diary -- and so why would he have described Hitler's views 4as being radical and unrelenting if that had only meant 5emigration? The fact that he knew it involved killing 6must, surely, have meant that Hitler's views were in 7favour of yet more killing. 8MR IRVING: On page 410 of your report -- we are slowly chewing 9our way forward -- line 3, you say there is a large number 10of instances where Hitler spoke openly about 11exterminating ---- 12A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
In my letter of 10th January -- I am sorry to 13interrupt ---- 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
You have withdrawn that, have you? 15A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
--- I have withdrawn the word "openly", yes. That was 16rather careless. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
Very well. 18A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It is open to misinterpretation. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
Three lines from the bottom of that same page, you quote 20the Goebbels diary: "It would end with the annihilation 21of the Jews". Once again we have that old, familiar, 22rubber word "vernichtung", do we not? 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, I think "annihilation" is an exact etymological 24translation of that. I tried to be careful to render it 25in that terms. "Nicht" means "nothing", so "vernichtung" 26means "making nothing of" or "annihilation", in other

. P-74

1words. 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
On page 412 of your expert report we have all those old 3words again. On line two you have the destruction of the 4Jewish element, which again is the "Vernichtung" is it 5not? That is in the Mufti conversation. 6A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. That should mean annihilation then. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
You did not give us the German text of that, did you? 8A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, I did not. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
But you will find that I provided you with the German text 10now? 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: To save time, are you prepared to accept that 12is "vernichtung". 13MR IRVING: At page 33. 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Let us have a look at the German text, my Lord. This is 15very easy. 16MR IRVING: Page 33 of my bundle. I went to the original 17microfilm last night and transcribed the passage in 18German, so it is "vernichtung" there again? 19A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, that is "vernichtung". I am quite happy to render 20that as annihilation. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
On December 12th, the indented passage two lines down, 22they would experience their own annihilation. We have 23"vernichtung" again. 24A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Indeed, yes. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
By way of variety, three lines from the bottom, "the 26extirpation of Jewry", that is now "Ausrottung"?

. P-75

1A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
We have the whole kaleidoscope of words being used there 3by the Nazis? 4A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
By Hitler, not by the Nazis. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
Over the page, page 413, line 4 of the indented passage, 6we have once again January 25th 1942. That is just five 7days after the Wannsee conference, is it not? 8A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
All Hitler is saying is the Jews have to get out of 10Europe. Four lines lower down, "I am just saying, he has 11to go". It does not really very homicidal to me. 12MR RAMPTON: Well, read on. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Let me read out the whole passage. 15MR IRVING: Then comes the tough talk. 16A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Of course. When it gets tough, it is just talk. When it 17is not tough, then it is real. That is your view. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
He is not saying we are setting about- he said if they die 19on the way ---? 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let the witness read it. Please do not let 21us have this batting backwards and forwards. 22A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Hitler says in this table talk 25th January: "If I take 23the Jews out today, then our bourgeoisie becomes unhappy: 24what is happening then with them? But have the same 25people troubled themselves about what would become of the 26Germans who had to emigrate? One must do it quickly, it

. P-76

1is no better if I have one tooth pulled out by a few 2centimetres" -- he does say centimetres but I think he 3means millimetres -- "every three months, when it is out, 4the pain has gone. The Jew has to get out of Europe. 5Otherwise we get no European understanding. He incites 6the people the most, everywhere. In the end: I do not 7know, I am colossally humane. The Jews", carries on 8Hitler "were maltreated at the time of the Pope's rule in 9Rome. Up to 1830 eight Jews were driven through the city 10every year with donkeys. I am just saying, he has to 11go". That is, the Jew has to go. "If he collapses in the 12course of it, I can't help there. I only see one thing: 13absolute extermination, if they don't go of their own 14accord. Why should I look at a Jew with other eyes than 15at a Russian prisoner of war? Many are dying in the 16prison camps because we have been driven into this 17situation by the Jews. But what can I do about that? Why 18then did the Jews instigate the war?" So he is 19threatening absolute extermination if the Jews do not go 20of their own accord, and he is talking about the Russian 21prisoners of war, many of them dying in the same context 22as he is talking about Jews. The murderous character of 23that conversation could hardly be clearer. 24MR IRVING: What is the phrase for "absolute Ausrottung"? You 25are quite incorrigible. What is the German he uses? 26A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
You just said.

. P-77

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
"Absolute Ausrottung"? 2A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
You translated that as "absolute extermination"? 4A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
Quite clearly it is absolute rooting up, is it not? Have 6you never had to uproot? 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: Again, we have had that point. I am well 8aware of the argument. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
It is these tendentious translations on which he relies. 10A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I do not think it is a tendentious translation. 11"Ausrottung" means extirpation, uprooting, rooting out or 12total -- if you look up "extirpation" in the Oxford 13English dictionary, you will to try and it will mean---- 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
And you translate it every time ---- 15A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Let me finish, Mr Irving. If you look up "extirpation" in 16the Oxford English Dictionary, which you obviously have 17not done, then you will to try and the translations 18include "total destruction". If you look it up in the 19Cassell's 1936 English German dictionary, you will to try 20and "Ausrottungskrieg" is translated as a "war of 21extermination". It is a perfectly legitimate 22translation. There is nothing tendentious about it. In 23connection here with all the things he is saying about 24killing Russian prisoners of war, deaths in the prison 25camp, and so on, it is quite clear what it means. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
He says they are dying, he does not say they are being

. P-78

1killed, does he? He says they are dying in the prison 2camps. 3A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, that is right. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
You are calling this extermination. You take the third or 5fourth meaning of the word. 6A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I think it is a reasonable conclusion to draw, that the 7Russian prisoners of war, of whom 3 or 4 million died in 8the prisoner of war camps in the Second World War, are 9being exterminated by the Nazis. Why they are dying in 10the prison camps? Hitler knows perfectly well, because 11they are not being given food or sanitation. They are 12dying of typhus and starvation. He is aware of that. 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can I give you another example of your tendentious 14translations of another word? Page 409. 15A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I do not accept they are tendentious. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: Wait, Professor Evans. 17MR IRVING: Page 409, please, halfway down. Have you got this 18passage: "In his table talk, Hitler even hinted at the 19violent fate of the Jews when he referred to 'racial 20pests' being beaten to death". 21A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
What is the actual document there? Can we have a look at 23the actual passage that was used? 24A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, pages 407 to 8, footnote 30. It is "Wenn mann von 25Staats wegen einen ausgesprochenen Volksschadling 26unschadliche mache, zum Beispiel totschlage".

. P-79

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
So how did you manage "Volksschadling" as "racial pests"? 2It is in the singular, is it not? 3A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I think it is quite clear that he is talking in the 4singular, "der Jude". He says, "Wenn aber der Jude den 5deutschen Menschen" -- you think he is talking about one 6single Jew there? It is all collective. 7MR IRVING: Does your Lordship have the passage? 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think it is translated in the singular at 9page 407. 10A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, it is. Page 407. 11MR IRVING: Halfway down page 409: "In his table talk, Hitler 12even hinted at the violent fate of the Jews when he 13referred to 'racial pests' or 'Volksschadlinge'". What 14entitles you, first of all, to translate the word 15"Volksschadlinge" as "racial pests"? 16A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well "Schadlinge" is derived from agricultural biology. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
We know that. What about "Volks"? 18MR IRVING: Let the witness to. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: Will you let the witness answer, Mr Irving? 20It is impossible for me to follow it. Every answer is 21interrupted. 22MR IRVING: I apologise. 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: "Schadlinge" means what? 24A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It is a sort of agricultural biology term meaning a kind 25of pest, of crops, or something like that, a sort of small 26animal that devours crops, I think.

. P-80

1MR IRVING: It is the other half of the word I am looking at, 2"Volks". Would you call a Volkswagen a race car, racial 3car? A Volkskuche is a racial kitchen? A Volksseele is a 4racial soul? 5A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
A Volkswagon is a post 1945 term, even though the car was 6not. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do not let us worry about Volkswagons. Would 8you like to put what you think the correct translation of 9"Volksschadlinge" would be, Mr Irving? It is marrying up 10two concepts and I think it would be helpful. 11MR IRVING: Public pest. 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: Public pest? 13MR IRVING: It is a reference to a public pest. Is this not 14because Adolf Hitler was constantly issuing death 15sentences with summary procedures against rapists and 16train robbers and people like that, and you refer to them 17as the "Volksschadlinge"? 18A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. It is not a public pest. Public is "offentlich" and 19that word does not appear here. That is a totally 20tendentious mistranslation of this term. Volksschadlinge 21is a term which the Nazis used in indeed dealing with 22criminals, because they considered that criminality was 23basically racial in character. That is to say, either 24through inherited racial characteristics of some sort, 25whether the criminal was German or not. I think it is 26quite clear what they mean. How would one translate the

. P-81

1word "Volkisch", which is the adjective? You 2would translate it as "public", I suppose? I think that 3is completely illegitimate. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
The word "Volkisch" is an extremely difficult word to 5translate, as you are familiar, is that not right. 6A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It is the adjective of "Volk", and as used by the Nazis 7I think it means in most cases "racial". 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is not the correct translation of "Eine Volksschadlinge 9totzuschlagen" to bump off a public pest? 10A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, it is not. 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
He says, "if we are entitled to bump off a public pest, 12then". 13A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No. To start with, almost everything is wrong there, Mr 14Irving, totzuschlagen is to beat to death, no ambiguity 15about that at all. "Volksschadling" I translate as a 16"racial pest". That is my view of what it means in this 17context as used by Hitler, and one comes across this in a 18lot of the legislation courts decisions and memoranda of 19the Ministry of Justice which I am familiar with. That 20word "Volksschadling" is legally defined, indeed, in the 21Second World War. It means, to my mind ---- 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
So this is another example ---- 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
In my translation it is a "racial pest". To put a gloss 24on it, it is a pest who is damaging the German race. That 25is really what it means. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
It is another example of a euphemism, right? You have to

. P-82

1translate it. It is a word which means one thing but you 2say this is euphemism for the Jews? 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I do not think that is what---- 4A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No. I do not mean that at all, no. Not necessarily at 5all. 6MR IRVING: How you would you translate the words "public pest" 7into German? 8A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Something like "offentlich ergonist", something like 9that. Public nuisance is "offentlich Unfug". The use of 10the word "Schadling" comes from the racial ideology 11drawing a parallel between growing crops and farming and 12human beings. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: A sort of agricultural bacillus? 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, my Lord. 15MR IRVING: You are aware that Adolf Hitler personally had to 16issue the death sentences against train robbers, rapists, 17and people like that. He would be the one who sent the 18word down the phone lines, saying "Execute"? 19A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I do not think he had to, Mr Irving. What he tended to do 20was -- I cite this in the book that I wrote -- he quite 21frequently, on at least 18 occasions listed by the 22Ministry of Justice during the early part of war, was 23reading the Nazi newspaper, and would see a report of some 24criminal whom he considered had too lenient a sentence for 25robbery or whatever, would exclaim, "That person ought to 26be shot", and immediately Schaub or somebody else would

. P-83

1leap up, get on the phone to Munich or wherever it was, 2and have the criminal shot while trying to "escape". 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
Do not I say exactly the same in my book, Hitler's War, 4now that you have mentioned that fact, that a simple phone 5call to Schaub sufficed and the man was already sent to be 6executed. Do you remember the passage in my book, 7Hitler's War, where I said that in the Kaiser's time the 8condemned man had the right to see the Kaiser's signature 9on the death warrant, but in Hitler's time it was done 10more informally? 11A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, I remember that. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
Not a very flattering passage about Hitler, is it? 13A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
In order to comment on that I would have to see the 14passage. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, I thought you would say that. Will you now go to 16page 408? 17A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I am sorry, I would have to. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
At the foot of page 408, the very last line of the 19footnote, you criticise me for failing to translate the 20last sentences. "In his translation of this passage, 21Irving fails to translate the last sentences". 22A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
If you look at the last sentences referred to, which is 24just above it in that footnote, it is not in the 25subjunctive, is it? So it is Goebbels, not Hitler. 26A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, I do not think that follows. You yourself said,

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1Mr Irving, that Goebbels wrote a rather colloquial slangy 2sort of German so one would not expect him to stick 3absolutely consistently to the formal means of reported 4speech. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
Does the last sentence add at all or subtract at all to 6the story? Is there some criticism? Is there some reason 7why you criticise me for leaving out those sentences? 8Obviously I have left out a huge number of sentences, I 9have left out millions of sentences in writing my books. 10It is part of being a writer. 11A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It is not a major point, Mr Irving. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. "Absolute Ausrottung" on page 413 is offset against 13going of their own accord, is it not? Either they go off 14their own accord or there is going to be "absolute 15Ausrottung"? 16A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
So it is clearly a going and not a killing? 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: You have cross-examined about that. 19MR IRVING: Yes. I just came across my rather nice way of 20putting it in my notes, my Lord. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: It had struck me. 22A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. What he is saying is that he will totally 23exterminate them if they do not go of their own accord, 24which of course by this time, January 1942, they were not 25going of their own accord because the Nazis had forbidden 26emigration of Jews from Germany in the previous October.

. P-85

1MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think the point Mr Irving is making is that 2going and not going, as it were, are being contrasted. 3A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
Which suggests Ausrottung is---- 5MR IRVING: Going voluntarily and not going voluntarily. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. 7A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
How he thinks that Jews could have gone voluntarily at 8this point, I really do not know. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
Did large numbers of Jews leave Germany more or less 10voluntarily between 1938 and the end of 1939? 11A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, driven out by the enormous hostility of the Nazi 12regime, particularly in the Reichskristallnacht. 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
Were they carried to the port or the airport and dumped on 14a plane? 15A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, they made the decision that life was unbearable in 16Germany and they left. 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: This is 1942, that is the point. 18A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
This is 1942. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us move on. I think we have had enough 20of that particular bit of table talk. 21MR IRVING: Page 416, in paragraph 22 and paragraph 1, I am 22sorry, the top paragraph of that page, what you are 23effectively saying is that the Nazis are using a code, are 24they not? They are using special words when in fact they 25mean something different. 26A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes.

. P-86

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
Does not the use of a code presuppose some kind of code 2document or list that has to be both ends? People have to 3know. It is not just a nod and a wink in something as 4important as this. Would you not expect to try and some 5kind of little list that, when I say evacuiert, I really 6mean kill? 7A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, I do not think so. 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is there not a danger then that you send a train load of 9Jews to Minsk, you evacuate them there and the person at 10the other end, Joe Bloggs, thinks they are just going to 11be evacuated, and he has them evacuated without realising 12he is supposed to kill them? 13A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Or the reverse, as we know happened in Riga. One cannot 14expect it to be entirely consistent, but I think it is 15clear that people knew that there was a euphemistic 16language. It is not consistent. There is a variety of 17different terms used. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
But does not this whole scenario raise the obvious 19objection that any conspiracy theory has, that as soon as 20you are presupposing a major conspiracy with everybody 21knowing what is going on, everybody who is in the know, 22there must be some kind of documentation of the fact of 23the conspiracy, the code list or the list of names, and, 24apart from one or two scattered references like Heinrich 25Himmler' Posen speech, we do not actually have the 26equivalences, do we, spelled out?

. P-87

1A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That is such a convoluted question I am not how to answer 2it. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think it is the same question you were 4asked before. Would you expect some sort of list or code, 5and you have said no. 6A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I do not expect some sort of list, no. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
Page 417, line 4? 8A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
The oath of secrecy which was taken by people involved in 10Operation Reinhardt, I think we agreed that there is such 11an oath because I have seen at least one. Do you remember 12what it consisted of, the three or four points what they 13swear to secrecy on? 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Remind me. I quote it somewhere. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
Do they swear to preserve secrecy about what is going on 16in the evacuation? 17A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I am sorry. I would have to see a copy of the oath, I am 18afraid. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
You asked me to remind you. 20A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
Do you ---- 22A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I think I quote it somewhere, I am trying to try and it. 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
Let me put it like this. Was it not to protect the 24plundering character of Operation Reinhardt from 25unauthorized eyes? 26A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
In fact, I have it on page 609 of my report, the

. P-88

1fundamental order No. 1. Is this what we are referring 2to? 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
No. 4A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
25th September 41. It is certainly what I am referring to 5there. 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
No. The oath of secrecy that each person involved at 7Auschwitz or somewhere like that had to sign on pain of 8death? 9A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I cannot comment on that without seeing it. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is very easily got hold of. It is 11document 112, is it not? 12A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
This is not the fundamental order No. 1 in September 1941, 13but something different. 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: What are you referring to then? It is a 15document that camp officials at Auschwitz had to sign? Mr 16Irving, is that right? 17MR IRVING: Yes, there was but, in view of this, let me move 18straight on to talk about the document which he has 19produced. 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right. 21MR IRVING: You refer to this Hitler secrecy order on page 417, 22line 2? 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
As the famous Hitler secrecy order No. 1? 25A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
You date it for some reason September 25th 1941.

. P-89

1A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. Is that wrong? 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
What inference do you draw from that and have you drawn 3from that? 4A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It is all right? The date is OK, is it? 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is the date suggested to be wrong, 6Mr Irving? 7MR IRVING: That is question two, my Lord. I am asking 8question one at this stage. What inference do you draw? 9A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I do not draw any inference in the report from the date. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is document 112. 11MR RAMPTON: I am going to try to find the document. 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I think it might be worth doing. 13MR IRVING: Do you not say at line 4 that this order for 14secrecy clearly covered the operational details of the 15Final Solution? Is that not the inference you draw from 16it? 17A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It was in effect, unless you are telling me it was issued 18in 1945 or 44, then I think that follows. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
No. You are implying that this order, unless I have 20totally misunderstood you, in which case I apologise, was 21drawn up as part of the security measures to protect the 22ugly details of the Final Solution? 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Ah no, I am not. I do not think that follows there at 24all. It certainly did cover all of that. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
Does not even the most incompetent historian know that the 26famous Adolf Hitler secrecy order was dated January 11th

. P-90

11940 and it was issued as a direct result of the famous 2Mechelin incident when a German plane landed carrying 3secret documents? 4A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Provide me with documentation, Mr Irving. 5MR RAMPTON: Can we just to try and the document? 6MR IRVING: Probably one of most famous orders Hitler ever 7signed. 8MR RAMPTON: I am sure Mr Irving is right about everything but 9I wish he would give me a moment to try and the document. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Have you got document 112? 11MR RAMPTON: Yes. It is file H1 (ix) and it is page 238. We 12will provide your Lordship, and somebody will do it for 13the witness. 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Could I have a copy, please? 15MR RAMPTON: Yes. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: Could I have a copy too? 17MR RAMPTON: Yes. I will pass this up. 18A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
238? 19MR RAMPTON: 238 is a stamped page number. 20A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, on the bottom. 21MR RAMPTON: The right hand corner is said to be document 112. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: Have you got this, Mr Irving? 23MR IRVING: My Lord, I know all about Hitler's top secret order 24and I do not need to see this thing. This is a subsequent 25reissue of it. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is a reissue of the same document, is it,

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1Mr Irving? 2MR IRVING: That I do not know, my Lord. The original January 311th 1940 version says nobody under any circumstances who 4has no need to know is to be informed of any secret 5operation. It is a basic need to know document on which a 6lot of other governments have modelled their own secrecy 7laws since then. 8A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
This is where I got it from. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
So you have never heard of the original basic order No. 1 10which was issued on January 11th 1940? I thought every 11historian knew of it. 12A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
If you can point me to a copy of it, I am quite happy to 13accept your dating. It does not really affect what I say 14at all. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
The question is: You do not know of the January 1940 one? 16A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I found it here. I quoted it as the date given here. 17I do not see what the point is you are trying to make, 18Mr Irving. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: Nor do I. 20MR IRVING: The point I am trying to make is, firstly, once 21again there appear to be gaps in this expert witness's 22knowledge of the Third Reich. 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I am sure there are gaps even in your knowledge of the 24Third Reich, Mr Irving. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
Secondly, the inference which you invited the reader to 26draw from your expert report, that paragraph at the top of

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1417, that there was some sinister connection between the 2issue of the order and the Final Solution evaporates? 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not read it as saying that so I think we 4can move on. 5A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I do not draw that inference at all. That is just reading 6far more into there than is actually there. 7MR IRVING: Good. Line 5, you quote Henry Picker as saying, 8"Over state secrets Hitler was totally uncommunicative. 9He told us nothing in his table talk about the 10extermination of the Jews in the concentration camps". 11Does this not render nugatory every clever translation you 12have made of "Ausrottung" and "vernichtung" in the table 13talks up to this point and beyond? 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No. I do not recall any mention of the concentration 15camps. 16MR IRVING: No, the "Ausrottung" and the "vernichtung"? 17A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, we are talking about the concentration camps here. 18I do not see any mention in the table talk of the 19concentration camps. That is what he is talking about 20here. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
So you believe Henry Picker is being clever when he is 22saying, "OK, he told us about all the other extermination 23of the Jews going on but not about what was going on in 24the concentration camps"? 25A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That is what he is saying. He says, "he told us nothing in 26his table talk about the extermination of the Jews in the

. P-93

1concentration camps." It may be clever or not, I think it 2is probably true. What he goes on to say his (Hitler's) 3conversations nevertheless revealed his deep rooted and 4fanatical hatred for all other races. That I think is 5also a true observation. 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
What about Adolf Hitler's other private staff, his 7stenographers, the people who took down every word he 8spoke from September 1942 onwards, people like that, the 9Adjutants, the private secretaries? 10A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Oh goodness. You want to go all through all the whole 11section on the Adjutants now? 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
I do not, but what I am going to draw your attention to is 13page 36 of the little bundle I gave you and invite you to 14look briefly at pages 39 and 40. Just run your eye over 15that letter from a lawyer to me dated 1974, when I was 16writing Hitler's War. He says that he carried out 17interrogations of all Hitler's Adjutants, stenographers 18and people like that in American captivity, and he has all 19their statements, and what should he do with them, if my 20memory of the letter is correct. 21A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
If you go back now to page 36, in the meantime he has now 23given them to me and I am listing them. That is a little 24index of them. 25A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
Page 37 shows that I, like a total idiot, give them to the

. P-94

1archives in Germany, where I can no longer get them now. 2Is that right? 3A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
I can only draw your attention therefore to the summary in 5this listing. If you look down the page numbers on the 6right of that page 36, there is a statement by Ludvig 7Krieger, who was one of Hitler's stenographers, his 8extraordinary impression of Hitler, and Hitler never 9mentioned the Holocaust of Jews. Right? 10A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
Do you see that one? 12A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, without actually seeing the written statement, of 13course we do not know whether that summary of it and 14account of it is correct. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
Ah. We will come to that. 16A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
What exactly he means by that is unclear. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
If you look at the item listed as page 23, Hitler never 18discuss concentration camps, the statement of another 19stenographer, Heinz Bucholz ---- 20A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Page 23? Down the list? 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, down the list? 22A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
I think it is true he did not discuss concentration 24camps. I do not think one sees the word "Auschwitz" 25anywhere in the Hitler table talks. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
Your experts have had total access to my records,

. P-95

1including of course those particular interrogation 2reports, have they not, in my papers in Munich? 3A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
Did they look at those interrogations, do you think? 5A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I would have to check, but I do not see what the relevance 6of that question is. I do not think we used them, put it 7like that. 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
Do you accept that I used them in my books? 9A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
And that, if I had statements by members of Hitler's 11private staff, not only questioned by me but questioned by 12others and by people far cleverer than myself, all of whom 13elicited precisely the same information that the Holocaust 14was never discussed by Hitler or at Hitler's headquarters, 15is that not a significance? 16A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, there are a number of problems there. First of all, 17what some of these say is that Hitler never discussed the 18concentration camps, and that is true. What I say in my 19report is that he used a generalized language of racism, 20exterminatory racism, towards the Jews. You can read that 21in his table talks and in the Goebbels diaries, but he did 22not go into any details. That does seem to be the case on 23reading through the table talk. He did not talk in any 24detail about gas chambers in Auschwitz or the actual 25processes. The second thing to say is of course that ---- 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
These are all Nazis?

. P-96

1MR JUSTICE GRAY: Will you let him finish? 2A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. A lot of these people of course were concerned to 3exculpate themselves, and therefore were being very 4cautious in what they admitted about what Hitler did or 5did not say to them. The third thing to say is of course 6the fact that Hitler did not talk about these things does 7not mean that he did not know about them, and a number of 8his entourage who said that Hitler did not talk about the 9extermination of Jews went on to say that they thought it 10was very clear that he did actually know about it. 11MR IRVING: Is there even one member of Hitler's staff who has 12stated from absolute certainty that Hitler had discussed 13this to your knowledge? 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
All right. We shall have to go through the whole section 15on the Adjutants in that case which I thought we were not 16going to do. . 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: I would be interested, though, if you could 18tell me and, if you cannot do it from memory, have a quick 19glance at your report, who are the members of the 20entourage who you say believed that Hitler did know about 21the extermination? You do not have to go into the detail 22of it, unless Mr Irving wants to ask you questions. 23MR IRVING: I will ask about specific people. 24A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Right. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
Did Otto Gunscher make a statement? 26MR RAMPTON: I am sorry, I do not think this is a satisfactory

. P-97

1way of dealing with it. Because I had said that I was not 2any longer much interested in the Adjutants, I dare say 3Professor Evans has not committed them all to memory over 4the weekend. I do not know because I have not spoken to 5him. 6A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I have been repeatedly assured that this was going to be 7ditched so I have not. 8MR RAMPTON: I do think it right that, if he is going to answer 9this perfectly proper question, he should be given time to 10read the adjutants section of the report, or skim it 11anyway, so that he can bring it back to mind. 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. We have all got time pressure slightly 13in mind. I therefore was inviting him just for my 14reference, then I could read about it later, to identify 15the names of some of those. 16MR IRVING: It is purely the fact that Otto Gunscher, who 17I think is the last surviving Hitler adjutant, told my 18Dusseldorf lawyer five days ago that the first he heard of 19it was when he was in the Luganka in Moscow. Although he 20has made statements differing from that, he now accepts 21that the first he heard of it was when he was in Russian 22captivity, the first he heard specifically of the 23Holocaust and of Auschwitz. He was with Hitler from 1936 24until literally he was the man who burned Hitler's body. 25I have a letter from my Dusseldorf lawyer to that effect 26reporting this conversation.

. P-98

1MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is up to you, Professor Evans. Would you 2rather come back to this, maybe at 2 o'clock? 3A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I think I would, my Lord, yes. 4MR IRVING: If we have time. 5A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
If we have time. It has caught me on the hop, I am 6afraid. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is totally understandable. Do you mind 8moving on, Mr Irving? 9MR IRVING: Yes. Page 421, Professor Evans. 10A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
This, as you realize, has been superseded by my letter of 1110th January. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
Paragraph 4? 13A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
I was just going to comment that you are effectively going 15to leave the debate to Longerich. 16A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I have withdrawn that page. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
You are hoping that Professor Longerich is going to cure 18that little snag? 19A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I have withdrawn that page and the previous page, and the 20top half of the following page and replaced them with a 21new section, which is on pages 8 to 12 of my letter of the 2210th January. 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
Page 425, I am hoping this is going to take less than 15 24seconds, Magnus Brach (?) says that the Madagascar plan 25was a pure hypocrisy, a verbal smoke screen born out of 26thought games. I am looking at the phrase "thought games",

. P-99

1would you agree that this is the same as saying it is a 2pipe dream? 3A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
He is not -- we are not talking about the Madagascar plan, 4but about the Hitler table talk of the 24th July 5mentioning the Madagascar plan, when, as we know, Hitler 6had long since abandoned it. He says "pure hypocrisy", 7I had better give the whole quote. "The talk on the 25th 8July by Hitler about sending the Jews to Madagascar was 9pure hypocrisy, at best a verbal smoke screen of Hitler's 10born out of thought games, a smoke screen with which he 11took up a known topic which had also once been the subject 12of concrete planning in order not to call the measures 13which are actually going on against the Jews by their 14name." 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
Page 426, paragraph 1, which is the lower paragraph 1 on 16the page, an examination of? 17A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
I may have a mistake here. I have a note here, you say 19that I omit the reference when in fact -- 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, if you do not, we should look at it. 21A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It must be a different page or something. 22MR IRVING: Must be looking at a different page. In fact, I 23have commented, it is, in fact, printed in full. Where am 24I accused of omitting a reference? But let us move on. In 25other words -- 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: Take your time, do not rush, Mr Irving.

. P-100

1MR IRVING: In that case we will have a look. 388. "It is a 2life and death struggle between the Aryan race and the 3Jewish bacillus" is the reference I am accused of 4omitting. 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not sure what are you looking for. The 6allegation against you by Professor Evans is that you did 7not -- 8MR IRVING: I left out -- 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Presumably in the Goebbels book refer to the 10passage which Goebbels has talking about Hitler as being a 11persistent pioneer and spokesman of radical -- 12MR IRVING: Here, too, the Fuhrer is the staunch champion and 13promoter of a radical solution, and I am accused of having 14omitted it and in fact it is on page 308 of the Goebbels 15biography? 16A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Which page of my report is this? 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: Page 426. 18MR IRVING: Ah. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, at least that is where I assumed you 20were. 21MR IRVING: Yes. Yes, it is staring me in the face, three 22lines from the bottom of the main text. 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Right. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
It has also been shown how Irving manipulated the diary 25entry in order to omit the Goebbels' reference to Hitler 26as the persistent pioneer and spokesman of a radical

. P-101

1solution to the Jewish question"? 2A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
If you look at page 388 of Goebbels book it is there. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: 388 or 308? 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
388, it is there. 6MR RAMPTON: To be fair to the witness, this is a reference 7back to -- I do not see a reference to the Goebbels book 8here. 9MR IRVING: Hitler's War. 10MR RAMPTON: I think it is a reference back to Hitler's War? 11A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, I was about to say that, my Lord. I do not deal with 12the Goebbels book in this section. 13MR RAMPTON: No, I think that is right. 14MR IRVING: But you agree that it is in the Goebbels biography 15because this, page 388, and it is relevant as concerns 16Goebbels, but not very relevant as concerns Hitler; is 17that a fair statement? 18A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
But you omit it from Hitler's War. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 20A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, do you accept it is not very relevant 22as far as Hitler is concerned? 23MR IRVING: Do you accept that the entry incriminates Goebbels, 24but does not incriminate Hitler? 25A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, I do not, no. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
In law, would it incriminate Hitler?

. P-102

1A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I am not a lawyer, Mr Irving, I am an historian. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: What do you mean by "in law", Mr Irving? Do 3you mean as hearsay as regards Hitler? 4MR IRVING: In a criminal case, would that be accepted? 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think it matters whether it would or 6it would not. We have to look at hearsay in an historical 7context. We have spent most of the morning looking at 8it. 9A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Particularly in the so-called Schlagerberger memorandum. 10It is hearsay twice removed. You rely very, very heavily 11on that. 12MR IRVING: Professor Evans, when were faced with an abundance 13of documentation and materials and you are obliged to 14write a book that does not contain eight pages of sludge 15every now and then would you agree that the first kind of 16thing that you would chop out would be the hearsay and you 17would leave the hard core stuff in like the police decodes 18and material like that? 19A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
But you do not do that, Mr Irving. There is masses of 20hearsay. As I said the so-called Schlagerberger memorandum 21is nothing but hearsay twice removed. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
I will ask the question again. 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
If it suits you, Mr Irving, you will put this hearsay in. 24If it suits you to discredit it because it is hearsay 25because it does not conform to your arguments you will 26leave it out. You have double standards in dealing with

. P-103

1this evidence. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, the question, I will ask it again is; 3as a historian, Professor, do you agree that if you are 4cutting down a published work for a new edition, the first 5thing that goes is hearsay evidence? 6A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I cannot agree with that as a general, global statement, 7my Lord. It depends on what you are writing about, and, 8of course, it depends on what the quality of other 9evidence bearing on this particular problem is. There are 10occasions when we have to rely on hearsay evidence, though 11one would perhaps rather not. 12MR IRVING: Page 427, please, the last sentence. You say there 13is a number of documents and sources which strongly 14suggest that Hitler knew all along. So at the end of all 15this all can you do is say the document strongly suggests 16something; is that right? 17A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. It seems to me a reasonable statement. I think 18history is about balances of probability, I think. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
It is a rather damning statement for the defence in this 20action though because what you do not say, and apparently 21you can not say, is that there is a number of documents 22which prove beyond reasonable doubt that Hitler knew, or 23even prove on the balance of probabilities. It is just 24saying you strongly suggest it, after all this huffing and 25puffing and after 55 years of searching through the 26archives and after millions of dollars which your defence

. P-104

1assistants have spent the most you can say is "strongly 2suggest"? 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is that meant to be question? 4MR IRVING: It is. Well, there was a -- 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: You know what I am getting at, Mr Irving. 6MR IRVING: Well, sometimes the answers are also long, my Lord. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: True. 8A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Am I supposed to try and answer that? 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I think you have answered it. 10MR RAMPTON: So do I. 11MR IRVING: In other words, there is nothing better than just 12strongly suggest that is how far we have reached? 13A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I think they do strongly suggest and the point is, of 14course, that these documents, which do strongly suggest to 15the objective historian that Hitler knew all along, are 16not directly confronted by you and taken into account by 17you, but they are manipulated, misrepresented or 18suppressed. That is the conclusion. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
My Lord, we are on page 428. We are now on the Himmler 20minute of 22nd September 1942, on which I have 21cross-examined this witness in connection with the chain 22of evidence. 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, I thought we dealt with this. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
So, really, there is just one or two little dotting Is and 25crossing the Ts? 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is that the "abschaffung" of the French

. P-105

1Jews? 2MR IRVING: No, my Lord, it is the Juden austvanderung which 3is one reason. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: Sorry, what date did you say? December 51941? 6MR IRVING: September 22nd 1942. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: Sorry. 8MR IRVING: And it is Himmler's handwritten agenda for a 9conversation with Hitler on which he firmly noted down 10before going into see Hitler the topic of Juden 11austvanderung, emigration of the Jews; how are we to 12proceed? 13 Then there is a new topic underneath that about 14the settlement of Lublin. 15THE WITNESS: Yes. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. 17MR IRVING: It will be in my bundle in the chain of documents, 18my Lord. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. What are you going to ask? Are you 20going to ask more about that? 21MR IRVING: One or two minor things, because he has dealt with 22it in some detail. I am not going to ask about where they 23were going. 24 On page 430, these are ancillary documents to 25his argument on this, paragraph 4, line 2. I am afraid 26you have not provided the document for this, so we are

. P-106

1not... 2A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
We are not in a position to judge the quality of this 4source. It is not in the bundle. I looked. You have 5quoted it from Brightman and from Labotsnik's file. Now 6we know from various sources, including Himmler's letter 7to his mistress? 8A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That is generally publicly available, is it? 9MR RAMPTON: That is not the first time Mr Irving has mentioned 10that correspondence. It is evident he has either got it, 11or he has seen it, or knows where to find it. We would be 12very much obliged if it were disclosed. 13MR IRVING: I am sure you would. 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is not really an answer, Mr Irving. If 15you have it, it should have been disclosed. Do you have 16it? 17MR IRVING: My Lord, they are aware from the correspondence. 18It is not in my custody, power or possession. I read 19through the entire file in Chicago. It is in private 20hands and I have made a three page note which I 21have supplied to the Defendants now. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: And you have not taken copies of it? Or of 23any of it? 24MR IRVING: The gentleman concerned wanted a quarter million 25dollars for them. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: Have you taken any copies of any of it?

. P-107

1MR IRVING: There is one page of which I have a facsimile which 2I provided. But I provided to the Defendants the note 3I took at the time on that, which is pretty full and 4extensive. The reference, from memory, it is Himmler 5writes to this female in July 1942. He is just about to 6set out on a swing round Lublin and Auschwitz and other 7places. He mentions Auschwitz by name and says there are 8ugly things that he has to do for Germany's sake. But 9that is the sense of it. I have not got the exact 10quotation. But anyway we do know that he had set out. 11 He the question is, witness, at this time, this 12letter is just after Himmler had visited Lublin, 13Auschwitz -- 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton, just pause a moment, if you can 15bear in mind that we have all got to get, or at least 16I have to get my bearings, Mr Rampton, it seems to me that 17cannot be taken any further. 18MR RAMPTON: What cannot? 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: You have had a synopsis. 20MR RAMPTON: No, I sat down. I have not seen it. I do not know 21when we had it but that is -- 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, chase it up if you want to raise it 23again. 24MR RAMPTON: That is my problem. That is not Mr Irving's 25problem. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, so are we back to the Himmler minute of

. P-108

122nd September? 2MR IRVING: July 22nd 1942, it is very interesting period, is 3it not, witness? 4A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
September? 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, or July -- 6A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Page 430, yes. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
-- 430, yes. Labotsnik has written a message in which 8apparently he says the Reichsfuhrer SS has given us so 9much new work that with it now all our most secret wishes 10are to be fulfilled; I am unhappy about this omission 11after the word "Reichsfuhrer SS" because we have 12established you have a bit of a track record of leaving 13things out, have you not, Professor? 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, leave aside that is gratuitous as well, 16where is the document? 17MR IRVING: We do not have the document, my Lord, I have not 18been shown it. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I know you do not, I am asking the 20witness, where is the document that you are quoting from. 21A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It is in the Berlin document centre. It is cited in a 22book by Richard Brightman called The Architecture of 23Genocide. It is not -- I mean, it does not play a very 24important part in the report, I have to say I am not quite 25concern why Mr Irving is asking about it. 26MR IRVING: It is in the report, I am entitled to ask you, what

. P-109

1do you think -- 2A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Of course you are entitled to ask, I am not -- 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
-- what do you think our most secret wishes are at that 4time? Do you have any indication from the document that 5the secret wishes concern the homicidal disposal of the 6Jews en masse? 7A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
-- I think that is one possible interpretation of that -- 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
One possible interpretation -- 9A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
-- given the fact that that is what Labotsnik was doing. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
-- is it not evident from the September 22nd document, the 11handwritten agenda, that the discussion between Hitler and 12Himmler in which Labotsnik was mentioned was in fact the 13resettlement of the Lublin area with the ethnic Germans 14and this might equally well have been the most secret 15wish? 16A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, the two were, of course, combined, and in fact on 1718th July 1942 Himmler had ordered that the Jews must 18finally disappear from Lublin, which is on page 495 of the 19Himmler calendar. So very shortly before this the 20disappearance of the Jews from Lublin to make way for 21these ethnic Germans moved in there, of course was to be 22undertaken by Labotsnik and involved sending them off to 23Treblinka where the killing started on the 23rd July. So 24I think it is reasonable to assume that he is talking here 25about the whole package. These two things are very 26intimately connected.

. P-110

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
There is one possible inference, right? 2A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I think it is a reasonable inference. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
But the document obviously does not tell us anything else 4more specific, otherwise it would have been quoted, would 5it not? 6A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, that is what I think he is talking about. He is 7talking about the killing, mass killing of Jews to make 8way for the people resettling the Lublin area from 9Bessarabia, Lorraine and Bosnia, ethnic Germans. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Would Labotsnik have had a particular wish to 11see Lublin being cleared of the Jews as quickly as 12possible? 13A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I think, yes, I think that is certainly the case, yes. 14MR IRVING: Would it have been a security wish? Was he chief of 15police in that region? 16A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That is right, yes. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
The remaining messages in that paragraph, you do accept 18that I have adequately used them or referred to them in my 19biographies of Hitler and Goebbels? 20A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Goodness, you do cite them, yes. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
Despite their very ugly language -- 22A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
You certainly cite them -- 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
-- the reference to the 5,000 members of the chosen people 24and so on? 25A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
-- yes, you cite them. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
Page 433 of your report, please, in the last indented

. P-101

1passage on this page, it is admitted that the plaintiff 2did not draw attention to this minute, in fact, I did, did 3I not? 4A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
I quoted from it? 6A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I think you were doing yourself an injustice. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. So I quoted the lines of Himmler's September 1942 8agenda in full in Hitler's War on page 392, I just merely 9left out the reference to Globos, did I not? 10A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, that is right, on paragraph 3, page 434, I note in 11going through the pleadings in the case both the defence 12and Irving are, in fact, wrong in claiming that Irving has 13not used the note by Himmler in his work. 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
Page 435, paragraph 4, I am again going to have ask you 15something from your memory, if you do not know the answer 16then just say so. 17A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, OK. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can you give one example where austvanderung as opposed to 19"evakuieren" or "umsiedein" is used explicitly by Hitler 20or anybody else as a euphemism for killing? If you do not 21know the answer then just say so. 22A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, let me draw attention to the passage we looked at a 23little bit earlier, where he talks about that and says 24that 75 per cent of those who emigrated from Germany in 25the 19th century died. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, well, they were killed or they died of natural

. P-112

1causes? 2A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well I think it is clear he means that they were 3transported in conditions so brutal and murderous that it 4came to the same thing. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
That they died because of privations? 6A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Deliberately inflicted on them, yes. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
I do not really want to follow that up, I do not it really 8advances it. 9Page 441. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: If we are moving to a new topic it would help 11me, Mr Irving, if you put it in context rather than just 12going to some rather small point on the text. 13MR IRVING: Your Lordship has rightly noticed that we have now 14moved to the Horthy meetings, Hitler and Horthy of April 151943. 16 (To the Witness) Your contention is, is it not, 17that I deliberated transposed the two sentences referred 18to on page 441? 19A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sorry, I did not catch... which page, 21441? 22MR IRVING: Page 441 of the report. 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
The point here is that Hitler and Ribbentrop met the 24Hungarian leader, Admiral Horthy, on 16th and 17th April 251943, and the minutes of the meeting make it clear that 26Hitler and Ribbentrop failed to get their message across

. P-113

1that the Hungarian Jews should be delivered to the Germans 2for killing, on the 16th. And, in fact, seemed to have 3failed to make clear that killing was what was actually 4involved. So on second day, the 17th April, they put much 5more pressure on Horthy, and were much more explicit, and 6on the 17th April, for example, Ribbentrop said the Jews 7had be annihilated or put in concentration camps, and 8Hitler said the Jews i Poland were shot if they were 9unable to work and he uses the usual language of 10tuberculous, bacilli and killing them and shooting hares 11and deer he talks about. On the previous day, on the 1216th, Hitler, when Horthy had "surely you do not mean kill 13them", Hitler had said "there is no need for that". But 14on the 17th he does not, he is much more explicit "they 15must be killed", and what is done in the account of this 16in Hitler's War is that phrase, "there is no need for 17that", is placed after an account of what Hitler on the 1817th, removing also Ribbentrop's remark about the 19concentration camps or killing into the footnote. So, in 20other words, it makes it look as if Hitler is opposing the 21killing of Jews, whereas, in fact, he was advocating it. 22That is the nub of the case. 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is very clear. Thank you very much. 24MR IRVING: A very useful summary. But now let us cut down to 25the bottom line. Firstly, does it change the burden of 26Hitler's remark one bit whether it is uttered on the 16th

. P-114

1or 17th April 1943? 2A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, it does, yes, I have already explained that Hitler 3and Ribbentrop were much more explicit on the 17th because 4they had failed to get their message across to Horthy who 5was either too dim or too old or too devious to get the 6message on the 16th, so they were more explicit on the 717th. 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
So on April 16th when Horthy apologised that he had done 9all he decently could against the Jews and continued "but 10they can hardly have been murdered or otherwise 11eliminated" Hitler reassured him, and there is dispute 12between us on that, "there is no need for that"? 13A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
In other words, there is no need for them to be murdered 15or otherwise eliminated? 16A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That is right. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is he not being perfectly explicit there on April 16th as 18to what Adolf Hitler's position is? 19A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No. He is drawing back from the actual brutality of 20saying "yes, that is what I do mean". He is trying to 21throw up a bit of smoke screen there. In saying "give us 22your Jews", as it were, and Horthy says, "well, we do not 23really want to do that if they are going to be killed" and 24Hitler "says all right, that is okay, just give them to 25us". 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
Did you find any support for this homicidal intent by

. P-115

1Adolf Hitler in the Hungarian version of this meeting? 2A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Ah, right. This is on pages 443 to 446 of my report, 3these are much less explicit, though they do not say what 4you claim that they say. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
What we are looking for is some reference in the Hungarian 6record to killing Jews. "Adolf asked us to kill our Jews 7and we put up a strong fight against it", is there 8anything in that sense? 9A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, the Hungarians were very careful about being 10explicit about this. 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
Why should they have had to be? 12A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Horthy, Horthy put in -- drafting a letter with the 13phrase -- and we are back to "ausrotten" here again, "Your 14Excellency", writing back, it was a follow up to the Nazi 15leaders, "further approached me that my government did not 16proceed in the extermination or extirpation of Jewry with 17the same radicalism with which this had been carried out 18in Germany". That is also regarded -- desired for other 19countries too, but in fact he crossed that out. He 20thought that was really too blunt and too brutal. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
Does this indicate that Hitler and Ribbentrop told Horthy 22about the radicalism that they were carrying out the 23operation in German? 24A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That seems to have been the case, yes, on the 17th April. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is there any hint of that in Schmidt's report of their 26meeting that they had this lengthy disquisition to the

. P-116

1Hungarians on how they were killing all the Jews? 2A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, now on the 17th, when Horthy says again "what should 3he do with the Jews" after he had pretty well taken all 4means of living from them, because Horthy was anti-semitic 5too, although in a somewhat less extreme sense than 6Hitler. "He surely could not beat them to death", the 7Reichs Foreign Minister replied that "the Jews must either 8be annihilated or taken to concentration camps, there was 9no other way". The alternative given there, that is 10footnote 8, page 441, and the alternative given there 11makes it quite clear what "vernichten" means, it means 12"killed". 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
So the word that is used there is "vernichten" again 14annihilated? 15A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. He cannot be talking about anything else. He gives 16the alternative, it is a sort of alternative of "work" or 17"death" again. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
You have read the entire Nuremberg transcript of the 19examination and cross-examination of Ribbentrop and 20Schmidt on the Horthy meeting? 21A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
Was there any admission at any point by either of those 23people, either by Ribbentrop or the interpreter, that 24there had been talk of annihilating in the murderous 25sense, the homicidal sense? 26A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
This statement by Ribbentrop was regarded by the

. P-117

1prosecution as an extremely damning piece of evidence, 2that Ribbentrop had been responsible for mass murder and 3therefore Ribbentrop, of course, in his own interests 4disputed this. 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: Standing back from the documents, this is the 6Germans really soliciting Horthy to agree to the Hungarian 7Jews being transported to the General Government? 8A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 9Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Looking at it, as it were, from Horthy's point of view, 10what would he have thought that the Nazis' interest in 11doing that was? 12A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
He is trying to find out, my Lord, and this is why he is 13asking repeatedly, "surely, you do not want to beat them 14to death? You do not want kill them?" I have done 15everything that I can, he says. 16Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
What other motive would the Nazis have in relation to 17Hungarian Jews? 18A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
None that I can imagine, my Lord. They certainly do not 19say that they want to take them away for labour. 20Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Labour would be the alternative? 21A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Would be the only other possible motivation that they 22could have. But it is quite clear here they have got to 23be annihilated or taken to concentration camps. And the 24whole language which is used, "bacilli" and giving a 25humane death to wild animals and so on makes it quite 26clear what they are talking about.

. P-118

1Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Yes, but I was thinking, leaving aside the documents, what 2the sort of thinking must have been on the two sides, the 3Nazi and the Hungarian side? 4A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
From Horthy's point of view, of course, he did, in fact, 5deport non-Hungarian Jews who were then killed. But he 6objected on grounds of sovereignty to Hungarian Jews, his 7Jews, as it were, even though he put all sorts of legal 8discriminations on them to being taken away by a foreign 9power. 10Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Sorry, Mr Irving. 11MR IRVING: Right, now I have to ask you two very clear 12questions following up on his Lordship's very 13well-informed questions; it is true that the Nazis not 14only wanted Hungarians as slave labour, but they also 15perceived (this is not evident from the Schmidt 16transcripts) the very large Jewish population of Budapest 17and the environments of Hungary as being a serious 18security problem within the boundaries of Hitler's empire, 19if you can put it like, that they regarded the Jewish 20population in Hungary as being a serious security threat 21or problem; is that right? 22A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Let us have a look. Where can we see this? Where does he 23say this? I am not disputing it, I just want to know what 24passage you are referring to in the Schmidt's minutes. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
I am going to come back after lunch to that if I may, my 26Lord, because I spent a great deal of yesterday evening

. P-119

1reading through the entire memoranda and also the 2interrogations that Schmidt conducted by the US State 3Department which I still have in my files here. There is 4no reference to this kind of homicidal conversation going 5on in the interrogations. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, well, speaking for myself, I do not find 7that all that surprising, but it would be interesting if 8Schmidt does record some other reason for wanting to get 9rid of the Hungarian Jews. 10MR IRVING: That I will try and elicit today, my Lord, but 11there is one final question I would like to ask before we 12adjourn and this is following. 13 (To the Witness) Is there any reason why in 14their own internal foreign ministry memoranda in Budapest 15the Hungarians would have had to use euphemisms to conceal 16what they perceived the Germans were going to do with the 17Hungarian Jews? Is not likely that they would have been 18brutally frank to their own officials in saying "what is 19this madman Hitler up to now? He is going to take our 20Jews away from us and liquidate them. We have to stop it 21however we can". Is that not the kind of memorandum you 22would expect to find and have you found such memorandum? 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, the memoranda you are referring to I think is a 24report by the Hungarian representative in Berlin to the 25Prime Minister in Budapest, which you say summarized the 26talks between Hitler, Horthy, and Ribbentrop and said that

. P-120

1the Jews are not to be liquidated only interned, and in 2fact the document deals with a separate conversation 3between the minister and Ribbentrop, and all it says is 4that "Hitler personally drew the attention of His Highness 5the Regent [which is Horthy] to the necessity of settling 6in a more thorough and penetrating manner the Jewish 7question in Hungary". That is all it says. It is about 8many other things as well. As for euphemisms, that is 9just a diplomatic phrase. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
No, but why should they have pussy footed around in their 11own internal Hungarian memoranda? I can understand why 12the Germans adopted euphemisms for their murderous 13programme, but why should the Hungarians have had to adopt 14euphemisms? 15A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, this is an extremely sensitive issue, as we know. 16The Hungarian government actually refused to deliver the 17Hungarian Jews and for that and because the Hungarian 18forces were partly withdrawn from the war effort as 19Germany's ally, Hungary was actually invaded and Horthy 20was pushed aside. This is a very, very sensitive issue 21within the Hungarian ministries. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: I was under the impression they had 23voluntarily in the end handed over the Hungarian Budapest 24Jews. 25MR IRVING: It was not voluntary. They sent Adolf Eichmann to 26do it.

. P-121

1A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It was not, no. The Germans invaded and sent Eichmann in 2who organized it himself. 3MR IRVING: They question is, my Lord, and I am sure your 4Lordship appreciates it. 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I understand why you put the question. 6It was my ignorance, I did not realise what had been... 7MR IRVING: (To the Witness) The question is, quite simply, 8you have not found anywhere in the Hungarian files, or in 9my copies from the Hungarian files, any explicit 10references that make plain that the Hungarians were aware 11that killing was what lay ahead? 12A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, they must have been -- the Hungarian file? 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, no, and I think obviously Storgzy (?) who was the 15minister concerned, is much more favourable to the Germans 16than Horthy was, and was, in fact, put into power by the 17Germans when they invaded. So he may well have felt it 18necessary internally, in the internal power games he was 19playing to cloak what was being asked in a certain amount 20of euphemism, but that is only speculation on my part. I 21do not want know enough about the ins and outs of 22bureaucratic Hungarian politics at this time. 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
Thank you, my Lord, I think we have made good progress. 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: But it is a fair point, is it not, that if 25this was something that they were being dragged kicking 26and screaming into doing against their will, you would

. P-122

1think from their own point of view that they would have 2recorded in their own internal documents something to the 3effect that, you know, this is all ghastly. We know what 4is going to happen to these Jews and we are doing 5everything we can to prevent it happening. 6THE WITNESS: Well, I think, my Lord, one has to make a 7distinction between this particular politician, Storgzy, 8who was no doubt looking for the main chance, which he 9eventually got when the Nazis invaded and was put into 10power and Horthy who was the one who really objected. 11I think Storgzy was much less hostile towards the idea and 12therefore may well have felt the need for euphemism. 13MR RAMPTON: Perhaps one should draw attention, save me coming 14back to it, to paragraph 3, the last part, on page 444, 15and the last sentence of page 445 i Professor Evans' 16report. 17THE WITNESS: Yes, this is Horthy deleting the reference to 18"extirpation" from his letter to the Germans. It is not 19an internal memorandum. 20MR IRVING: Reference to "ausrotten", right. Was Horthy 21surrounded by a large staff of people with him? Did he 22have interpreters with him and flunkeys who also attended 23the conference? 24A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I have to say I do not know how many people came with him. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, shall we say five past 2? How are you 26doing, Mr Irving, are you more or less on course?

. P-123

1MR IRVING: We have made excellent progress. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, do not rush your fences, particularly 3on the big points. 4MR IRVING: If your Lordship thinks I am rushing then please 5slow me down. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I have tried to slow you down on the 7odd occasion. But five past 2. 8(Luncheon Adjournment) 9(2.05 p.m.)10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor Evans, you were going to help us 11about the Adjutants, I think, were you not? If you had 12the chance to see whether there were any who, on 13reflection, did say that they thought Hitler knew about 14the extermination? I think that was the point, was it 15not? 16A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, I have looked very hastily at my report. I refer you 17to pages -- oh, yes, well, first of all, page 622 of my 18report and pages 15 to 16 of my letter of 10th January 19this year which makes it clear that the conversation which 20Engel reported was on 2nd November, and Himmler was 21reporting to Hitler about what was going on with the Jews 22in Riga and Minsk at the very time when shootings were 23taking place. It seems highly likely that they were 24discussed. Pages 629 to 30. 25MR IRVING: Can I take them one at a time, my Lord? 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I think that probably is better in the

. P-124

1end, Professor Evans, if you would not mind? 2A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I have 10 references my Lord. It may take some time. 3MR IRVING: We will deal with them very rapidly. Is this the 4only reference to Engel on which you are going to rely? 5A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, this is all we had time to look at really. 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
Major Engel or Lieutenant General Engel, as he became, was 7Hitler's Army Adjutant, is that correct? He was the Army 8Adjutant on Hitler's staff? 9A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Right, with Hitler, yes. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
You never met him, did you? 11A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I did not meet him, no. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
Did you ever see the original diary or pages of diary on 13which this is based? 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, well -- oh, I see what you mean. I explain the 15background to the diaries on page 617 to 18 of my report 16and again on pages 15 to 16 of my letter. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
I am not going to discuss contents ---- 18A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
This is a shorthand diary you are saying or? 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
I am not going to discuss the content of the diary. Am 20I right in saying that there is a dispute over the time 21when the diaries were written? 22A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I think there is some confusion which was partly his own 23fault, but I think it is fairly clear what happened, and 24that is laid out in my report and in the letter. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
I am going to ask you questions. Is it right that the 26diaries were purchased by the Institute of History in

. P-125

1Munich in the 1960s from the General for a sum of 50,000 2deutschemarks? 3A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I will accept if you say that, yes. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is it right that the Institute then learned to their 5consternation that the diaries were written on postwar 6paper? 7A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It is clear that the diaries were, in short -- that what 8Engel did -- I am trying to find the place here -- is that 9he seems to have sort of made up another version of the 10diaries or used a copy of the diaries after the war to 11answer questions which are put to him, and that he added 12in some extra, some additional notes, and then somehow the 13originals got lost, so that what exists is a sort of 14hybrid which consists partly of original material and 15partly of copied out and partly of the later editions, and 16the problem is trying to disentangle these things. 17 What one can say is that there is some original 18material there and then some material written down from 19memory. So they have to be treated with a considerable 20amount of caution, particularly where dates are concerned, 21as I make clear in the editions to my report where he 22reports a conversation on 2nd October 1941 which can, in 23fact, be dated to 2nd November 1941. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
Would a genuine diary do that? 25A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I have already explained the status of the diary which was 26copied by Engel with some additions, so it is not a

. P-126

1question of being genuine or fake. It is a question of a 2kind of hybrid document. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
Would why he copy dates wrongly in his own diary? 4A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, we all make mistakes. 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: A slip of the pen, I suppose. 6MR IRVING: I beg your pardon? 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: A slip of the pen, could be? 8MR IRVING: Are there many such slips of the pen? 9A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
There seem be a number, yes, and it is also, of course, in 10shorthand, shorthand notes. And Engel, in fact, went to 11the Institute of Contemporary History in Munich twice to 12read out his shorthand notes for copying, and so there are 13a lot of opportunities for error there in all these 14various processes. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is it not likely that, in fact, he tried to reconstruct 16years later what had happened and when and that in that 17process he got the dates wrong? 18A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Not entirely, no. I mean, it is very difficult to second 19guess exactly what went on. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
Are you familiar with the passage in the Engel diary dated 21November 24th 1942 where he describes a heated conference 22between Hitler and Goring over the Battle of Stalingrad at 23a time when Goring was, in fact, nowhere near Hitler's 24headquarters but was on a shopping expedition i Paris? 25A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
There are many instances like that, but if one looks at it 26patiently, I think one can disentangle them and to track

. P-127

1down the right date as we have done in once instance that 2we had time to do. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
Have you seen several items of correspondence from me to 4the Institute in which I have drawn their attention to 5genuine entries in genuine diaries, like Walter Hayhol or 6the widow of Schmunt, which makes the entries in the Engel 7diary completely impossible? 8A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, and if you check them against the Himmler 9Diensttagebuch, you can also find some misdating there as 10well. 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
How can ---- 12A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That does not mean, however, that the whole diary has to 13be dismissed. Responsible historians do not dismiss whole 14sources just because of complex problems of this sort. 15You have to find out how the sources came into being and 16then try to track down what went on there. The point, 17since we seem to have got on to the Adjutants on a kind of 18larger scale, the point that I make in my report is, of 19course, that because you find Engel's diary/memoirs, 20I think one should call it, in many ways embarrassing, you 21dismiss it altogether just simply as a forgery which is 22completely irresponsible. 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
How can one have the slightest confidence in a diary ---- 24A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Whereas the very similar diaries/memoir of Friedrich van 25Owan you treat quite uncritically because he says he was a 26neo-Nazi after all and says what you like.

. P-128

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
You say that I treat it uncritically. Have you seen the 2reference in the Goebbels biography to the faults that are 3contained in the Owan diary and the evidence has quite 4obviously been constructed postwar? There is this very 5lengthy footnote in my Goebbels biography. 6A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
If you point it me to? 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
I will point it out later on because I do not want to be 8distracted from this. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right, we have dealt with Engel, have we not? 10What about your second reference? 11MR IRVING: I want to ask one summary question. How can one 12have the slightest confidence in a diary of a man who has 13repeated mistaken dates, invented fictitious events ---- 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: You have asked that question, Mr Irving. You 15have asked that question. 16A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
And the answer is through the use of painstaking objective 17scholarship of a kind which you seem unfamiliar with, 18Mr Irving. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
Are you aware that I am the person who has exposed the 20Engel diary as being suspect? 21A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It is suspect now, is it? Not completely falsified? 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
And that until I did so, the Institute of History had not 23the slightest idea that these pages had been faked? 24A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It is not at all -- it has no relevance at all to what 25I am saying. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
What is the next name?

. P-129

1A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
What we are dealing with here is the point that while the 2Adjutants said that the subject of extermination of the 3Jews was not mentioned in so many words in Hitler's 4headquarters, it is not legitimate to draw from that the 5conclusion that they thought that Hitler did not know 6about it which is the conclusion that you draw. On page 7632, for example, we have Karl-Jesco vo Puttkamer who 8says, "I can state with certainty that Dr Dietrich knew 9nothing of such things", and we are talking here about the 10press spokesman Otto Dietrich. "Because of Dietrich's 11sensitive nature, Hitler would have completely oppressed 12him with the knowledge of it", talking about the 13extermination of the Jews, "and Hitler, who knew precisely 14this quality in Dr Dietrich, took care, alone on these 15grounds, not to initiate him." Thus, what Puttkamer says 16is that Hitler knew but did not tell Dietrich. 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: So that is the second one? 18A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That is the second one. That is, of course, a sentence 19omitted by Mr Irving. He writes about this. Thirdly, 20633, Wilhelm von Bruckner: "Hitler never talked in my 21presence about the so-called Final Solution of the 'Jewish 22question' or 'extermination of the Jews'. This applied 23equally to the whole of Hitler's entourage". Then 24Bruchner added: "These questions were probably left to 25the close and competent circle, to which Dietrich", again 26talking about him, "did not belong". That is another one

. P-130

1who says that they -- in other words, it was discussed, 2not just by Hitler, Hitler did know about it in other 3words. 4MR IRVING: Can I draw your attention to page 634, please, 5paragraph 2? You state that I did not provide the 6statements by the stenographers Buchholz, Jonuschat, 7Krieger, Reynitz and Thot. Is that not precisely the file 8of which I have just drawn your attention in the bundle 9this morning, at page 36, the written statement of 10Hitler's stenographers, that that was, therefore, in the 11Institute and available to you and your researchers? 12A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. I am just saying that you did not provide it to the 13court before this morning. That is all. 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
Did not do what? 15A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Provide it to the court before this morning. 16Q.
[Mr Irving]
Are you aware that that list is in my discovery as a 17numbered item in my discovery? 18A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Are the actual statements there? 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
The actual statements are in the Institute of History 20where they have been ---- 21A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
So they are not in the discovery? That is all I am 22saying. 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
Well, I think his Lordship has the point. Next name? 24A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
636, this is Krieger, one of the stenographers. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Krieger, yes, I see. 26A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes.

. P-131

1MR IRVING: Ludovic Krieger. 2A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Who as a sort of a "don't know": "It remains a problem" 3-- it is rather awkward English -- "It remains a problem 4first unsolved whether Hitler himself issued the orders of 5such cruelties or authorised men as Himmler or Bormann to 6do so or whether generally held orders were carried out by 7subordinate organs and sadists in such a brutal and vile 8manner" which is somehow rewritten on a different version 9which is used by Mr Irving where he says: "For the 10present it must remain an unanswered question, whether 11Hitler himself issued specific orders ... or whether 12orders issued in generalised terms were executed by 13subordinates and sadists". 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: Whose translation is the first one? 15A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That is, I think, it looks like it is originally -- it is 16such peculiar English, it looks like it was originally 17written in English actually. Anyway, he keeps it open. 18He says it is certainly possible that Hitler issued the 19orders. 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is page 636? 21A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. And then Buchholz, page 636, again it was never 22discussed. 23MR IRVING: "It is possible that Hitler issued the order", what 24does he mean by that? 25A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
He is just saying that; it is possible that he issued the 26orders of such cruelties.

. P-132

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
It is possible the Queen Mother issued the orders, but we 2are dealing with likelihoods here, are we not? 3A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, but you are saying that, you are drawing a conclusion 4from all these people's testimony that they all thought it 5was not possible. 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
No, the conclusion that I have drawn is that all of them 7were questioned and all of them came out -- in every case 8the interrogators drew a blank, if I can put it like 9that? 10A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, well, there are two issues here which you have already 11mentioned. One is whether or not the extermination of the 12Jews was actually discussed in Hitler's entourage to which 13these people all said, leaving aside whether you believe 14it or not, no; and the second question, whether they 15concluded from that that Hitler did not know about them, 16which is the conclusion that you draw from their 17evidence. I am saying here, in this series of examples, 18that they did not, in fact, draw that conclusion. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
Are you aware of the fact that in most of these cases I 20personally interviewed all these men myself? 21A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
That I am capable to judge whether they are telling the 23truth or not and the nature of the evidence they are 24giving? 25A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
You do not accept that?

. P-133

1A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, no, I think you wait for the answer you want and you 2do not probe any deeper. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
So I am not capable of detecting forgeries or lies or 4anything like that? 5A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Not when people are saying what you want them to say, no. 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can we have another name? 7A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Buchholz: "The Fuhrer did not discover" -- well, "The 8treatment of political prisoners in concentration camps 9was never discussed in the briefings with Hitler at which 10I was present". 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
Page, please? 12A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
636. "The reason why lies in the fact", he says, "the 13reason lies" and then: "The circle of those in the know 14had been kept very small. I am convinced that such 15questions have always been treated between the Fuhrer and 16the Reichsfuhrer SS", that is Himmler, "Himmler in strict 17confidence. Especially in last half year, such 18conversations between these two often took place, usually 19before or after a briefing at which Himmler appeared". 20And then ---- 21MR IRVING: Can I stop you? 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is a specific claim that Hitler did 23know, is it not? 24A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 25MR IRVING: Yes, but it is based on the fact that Himmler and 26Hitler met in private and that this, therefore, invites

. P-134

1the following immediate question, do we not have the notes 2which Himmler drew up for the meetings of the ---- 3A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, not obviously -- one does not know whether they are 4complete or not. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
Professor Evans, have we not been not been looking at some 6of the handwritten notes ---- 7A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Mr Irving, the ---- 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
--- the handwritten notes of the ---- 9A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
These members of this staff are giving their opinion. 10What we are talking about here is their opinion. You have 11said that because they say that there was no discussion in 12Hitler's entourage, therefore, Hitler did not know about 13it. I am quoting the opinions of various of these people 14that Hitler did know. That is what is at issue. That is 15a separate matter from whether Hitler really did know or 16not. It is a question of ---- 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
Shall we look at exactly what Buchholz says? 18A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
-- a question of the evidence. Yes, indeed. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
He says: "I am convinced that such questions have always 20been treated between the Reichsfuhrer and Hitler and 21Himmler in strict confidence". Of course, Buchholz is, 22effectively, saying, "I do not know what happened between 23them", is he not? 24A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, no. He is actually saying he knows what ---- 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: He is guessing, I suppose that is fair, is it 26not?

. P-135

1A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
--- he suspects. Yes, but he is giving his opinion. 2MR IRVING: He is guessing. But we do not have to guess, my 3Lord, because we have the agenda. 4A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
He is giving his opinion, "I am convinced". 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. Do you have another name? I mean, unless his 6Lordship has further questions to ask ---- 7A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, I have plenty more. 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, well, we want to move through the names with speed 9because we are not ---- 10A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I am moving them as fast as I can. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am happy just to have the names, but if you 12want to ask questions, Mr Irving, that is entirely 13appropriate and please do so. 14MR IRVING: I am asking, for example, on Engel where there is 15an important point, I slowed the matter down, but on the 16other names I an not really going to halt the flow. 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, it is up to you decide. I mean, if you 18say, "Oh, well, do not be ridiculous, he is not even 19hinting that Hitler knew", then I think you ought to put a 20question to that effect. 21MR IRVING: I have heard nothing that shakes me yet, my Lord, 22because frankly I am very familiar with all these papers. 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, well, I am not nearly as familiar as you 24so it helps me to know which Adjutant Professor Evans is 25going to point to. 26A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Right, the next one.

. P-136

1MR IRVING: Then I will ask a few general questions at the end. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: All right. 3A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Then a statement by Heinz Linge. 4MR IRVING: On which page? 5A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
639 to 40. 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
640? 7A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, and again 642 to 3. Then 645, let us have a look at 8this. Brottigan, 645 to 6. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can we know exactly what is in your statement ---- 10A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It is all in my report. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Just go to the bit because I was looking for 12the particular passage you rely on. 13A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Right. Well, there are two passages, 639 to 40 and 642 to 143, by Hitler's attitude towards the Jews. All right. 15MR IRVING: It does not amount to a row of beans really, does 16it? 17A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Brottigan/Schumndt, pages 645 to 6. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
Have you read the diaries of Brottigan which I found in 19the Library of Congress? Are you aware that I found the 20diary of Otto Brottigan in the Library of Congress, the 21handwritten diary? 22A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
And Christa Schroeder ---- 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can you answer my question, please? 24A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Sorry, yes. I am aware you found it, yes. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is there anything in the handwritten diary of Otto 26Brottigan which indicates a knowledge of Hitler of the

. P-137

1Final Solution in the homicidal sense? 2A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Right, page 645. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
This is Wolga German's episode, is it not? 4A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That is right, yes. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes? 6A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That is to say, in the report that Rosenberg urged a kind 7of retaliation for the Stalin deportation of all the 8Germans to Siberia. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not read that as suggesting that 10Brottigan thought that Hitler knew. 11MR IRVING: You come to Christa Schroeder? 12A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, page 652. I did this very hastily, I am afraid, just 13after the lunch. Speaking to Gita Szereni, of course, 14Hitler knew it was all his ideas, his orders who remembers 15a particular incident. 16MR IRVING: Christa Schroeder was pretty frank with me, was she 17not, Hitler's private secretary? She told me about Hitler 18after the Night of the Long Knives and things like that. 19I remember: "I have had a shower and I feel as clean as 20new born baby", episodes like that. 21A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
On that particular incident, yes. That was some years 22before, I believe, not in 1977. In other words, it was 23earlier, was it not? 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: Schroeder is again categorical. Hitler knew 25perfectly well he had been told by Himmler. 26A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes.

. P-138

1MR IRVING: Where is this? 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: The top of page 650. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
This is the book by Christa Schroeder, is it? 4A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, it is an interview by Gita Szereni with Christa 5Schroeder in an article Szereni wrote about your work. 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
Are you aware that I am conducting a libel action against 7Gita Szereni? 8A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: What has that got to do with this case? 10MR IRVING: The following question will explain, my Lord. 11I have asked for her notes on the discussion with 12Schroeder by way of discovery and she has said that no 13notes were taken. Are you aware of that? 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
You would have to show me the correspondence before I will 15believe you, Mr Irving. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: She must have taped it; she could not have 17kept it all in her head, Mr Irving? 18A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Tape recorders did exist in 1977. 19MR IRVING: My Lord, I do not consider Gita Szereni to be 20either a neutral or a reliable observer. I knew Christa 21Schroeder extremely well. I persuaded her to talk me in 22very great detail over a period of 10 years. She wrote to 23me from her death bed. Your Lordship is aware that she 24gave me as a gift a prized possession of a Hitler 25self-portrait, that kind of thing, so a lot of what you 26can read here about Christa Schroeder has to be taken very

. P-139

1much cum grano salis, in my submission. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: When did she die? 3MR IRVING: In 1984, June. 4A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I think that I do not dismiss this as being Miss Szereni's 5invention. I do not think that Miss Szereni invents 6things. 7MR IRVING: Until and unless Miss Szereni can produce the 8notes, and ---- 9A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It is not necessarily notes; it could be tape recordings. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
--- I am sure that every effort was made the Defence in 11this action to produce the notes from her of this alleged 12interview and these alleged remarks by Christa Schroeder, 13I am afraid you and I must agree to differ on that. 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I will believe it when you show the correspondence 15relating to the notes. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: Would you care to deal with it this way, 17Mr Irving? Would you like to put to Professor Evans 18exactly what your case is? Is it your case that there is 19not any record, whether tapes, notes or anything, of Gita 20Szereni's interview with Christa Schroeder and she is, in 21fact, making the whole thing up? 22MR IRVING: Yes. 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: Because I think that should be put clearly, 24because she is still alive and well. Put your case, would 25you? 26MR IRVING: Yes. As stated in your report, your expert report,

. P-140

1this relies entirely on one published source by Gita 2Szereni. Is that correct? 3A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
This passage on page 652. 5A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Where there are lengthy previous quotations? 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 7A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Quotations from Christa Schroeder. 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
Did you or your researchers make any attempt to obtain 9from Gita Szereni, who lives in London, any original notes 10or tape recordings, or other memoranda drawn up 11contemporaneously on her interview with Christa Schroeder? 12A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, I do not see why we should have done so. She says 13clearly that this is in her article. This is what Christa 14Schroeder told her and we have no reason to disbelieve 15her. 16Q.
[Mr Irving]
Are you aware that Christa Schroeder expressed herself to 17me in terms of the utmost contempt for this particular 18author and what she was trying to get her to say? 19A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, I am not. You will have to show me evidence of that 20if I am to believe you. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
Have you had complete access to all my private diaries, 22papers and telephone logs? 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
Have you seen no reference to any conversations or letters 25from Christa Schroeder in that vein? 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: If there are any, I would like to see them.

. P-141

1A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. It would be very interesting to see them. I mean, 2obviously, there is far too much there for us to read all 3the way through. As I have said many days ago, we were 4particularly looking at the diaries and telephone logs and 5so on, with a view, with certain particular questions in 6mind, and we were not looking to them in order to verify 7what seems to be a perfectly straightforward statement by 8Miss Szereni in her article, that this is what Christa 9Schroeder said to her in her statement and which we had no 10reason to disbelieve, and I still have no reason to 11disbelieve. 12MR IRVING: Are you aware of a book called "Hitler Privat" 13written by a Frenchman called Albert Zoller which, 14apparently, is conversations with Hitler's private 15secretary, Christa Schroeder? 16A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
This is discussed at length in my report. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
Would you draw us to the page, please? 18A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Pages 647 to 651. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
Have you seen Christa Schroeder's original copy of that 20book with the crossings out and heavy lines in the margin 21and exclamation marks where she has dismissed most 22robustly the statements she is alleged to have made? 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That is much too sweeping, Mr Irving. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
Well, the answer is no, is it? 25A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, I am trying to give you an answer, if you will let me. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, wait for it.

. P-142

1A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
So many of your questions do require a lengthy answer. It 2is on page 649 that I describe the critical addition in 31985, where Frau Schroeder tells the Editor, Anton 4Joachimstahler, the exact nature of the book produced by 5Zoller, which leads to conclusions about 160-70 pages 6originated by Frau Schroeder, although some of those are 7distorted or amended more, in a greater or lesser vein, by 8Zoller. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can you, in that circumstance, attach any value whatever 10to the Zoller book? 11A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, of course, yes. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can you show straightaway what was said by her and what 13has been said by Schroeder? 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It is a complex -- well, because we know in her copy the 15pages she has crossed out were not by her, so at least we 16have got rid of those extra 70 odd pages which do not 17originate from Frau Schroeder. Frau Schroeder was asked 18with reference to or in the course of the preparation of 19the 1985 edition about these amendments in the pages she 20did write, and she said that she did not doubt the truth 21of the statements in the least, only that they were 22polemically distorted in some details and not represented 23quite exactly. That is rather a convoluted way of saying 24that they are basically her words, but slightly altered in 25some cases or given a slight spin. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
Was this book published after her death?

. P-143

1A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, seems to have been. As you know, books are prepared 2a long time in advance of their publication. She died in 31984 and the book was published in 1985. You have argued 4with reference to some of your books that you wrote them 5four or five or six years before they were published. 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
If Christa Schroeder had any reason whatsoever to be 7disgruntled with what I wrote or to dispute what I wrote 8in my various biographies, why would she have continued an 9amicable correspondence with me until the very last weeks 10of her life? 11A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Let me try to find it. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
Which has been in discovery throughout this action. Every 13single letter she wrote me has been in discovery. 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That is right, yes. We have looked at some of them. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Page 647. 16A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. There she says, that she regretted this and once 17rashly put a part of my, I guess, letters at David 18Irving's disposal. "I passed on (parroted) the judgments 19expressed therein from Hitler's conversations, for 20instance about the Russian mentality. Today I am 21horrified about these views thoughtlessly taken from 22Hitler". 23MR IRVING: It is true that she wrote these letters to a woman 24friend. She had a woman friend living in Switzerland, and 25that she had written some pretty harsh judgments on other 26peoples in those letters, and that is what she regretted

. P-144

1I had access to. 2A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
In the later years of her life. In other words, she seems 3to have changed her mind somewhat about many issues. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
As people frequently do when they give their most intimate 5papers to a writer and it is then used in a book. 6Sometimes they have second thoughts. 7A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, that is I think probably the explanation of why 8towards the end of her life she said to Gita Sereny, of 9course Hitler knew, not only knew, it was all his ideas, 10his orders, whereas she did not say that to you many years 11earlier. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
Have you any indication of the relationship that existed 13between Gita Sereny and Christa Schroeder, whether they 14were on an amicable basis or whether in fact there was the 15utmost hostility between them from the start to the 16finish? 17A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I do not, no. I do not see how that affects this at all. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: It affects it in this way, and I am not quite 20clear what Mr Irving's case is on this. If the contention 21is that Gita Sereny invented effectively everything that 22Christa Schroeder said ---- 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It appears to be that. 24Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
-- and, when asked for some note or tape recording, said, 25oh well, there is not any record at all of my interview, 26then I think that should be put. Is that your case,

. P-145

1Mr Irving? 2MR IRVING: That is, coupled with the fact that the book was 3published posthumously, the Christa Schroeder book, and 4the fact these statements by Gita Sereny have surfaced 5more recently still. Can I ask this question? Is it 6known to you that Gita Sereny had to withdraw statements 7that she made in her famous attack on my book in a letter 8pushed in the Sunday Times? 9A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
We could have a look at that. I think it is in discovery 10and we can see which ones. I do not think she withdrew 11this. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is it a fact ---- 13A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Of course I go back to the fact that the book was 14published very shortly, the edition of the memoirs was 15published very shortly after Christa Schroeder's death, 16and that the editor clearly had the collaboration of Frau 17Schroeder in preparing the edition, as he says in the 18preface. I do not accept your view, because I think it is 19your view, that Gita Sereny made all this up. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can I get back to my question, which is this? Given that 21Gita Sereny in an article in the Sunday Times also claimed 22to have interviewed Dr. Frohlich, and quoted Dr Frohlich 23in quotation remarks and saying various very disreputable 24things about me, and that two weeks later Gita Sereny had 25to publish a letter in the Sunday Times admitting that 26this was totally untrue, is she a reliable source, in your

. P-146

1view? 2A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Could we have a look at the letter, please? 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
It has been in discovery throughout. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: There is a problem, Mr Irving. I am 5reluctant to press you to chase up every document for 6which Professor Evans asks, and frankly I think we can 7forget about the Frohlich one. But, if you are saying 8that there are documents emanating from Christa Schroeder 9protesting about Gita Sereny, then I think those, at some 10stage I would like to see them. 11MR IRVING: My Lord, I have a note of both Christa Schroeder's 12name and Sereny's name. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: I know it is difficult for you on the hoof 14but can you bear that in mind. 15MR IRVING: It is important. I have one more question on this 16particular matter. Christa Schroeder, through the Albert 17Soller book, apparently makes a statement incriminating 18Adolf Hitler in the Final Solution, upon which reliance 19has been placed by people like Gita Sereny. 20A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Sorry, is that a question? 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 22A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I am not quite sure what I am meant to ---- 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
Do you agree this is so? 24A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I would have to see the documentation for that. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
Well, in that case, let us move on to another name? 26A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Obviously, you are suggesting that it derived from the

. P-147

1bits of the book which were not written by Sereny but were 2based on the interrogations of Heinrich Hofmann, the 3photographer and Schaub, the side kick of Hitler. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
Then I will ask this further question. Have you seen, as 5you say you have seen, all my memoranda on my interviews 6with Christa Schroeder, which are in the Institute's 7files? 8A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
Do you agree that I keep very clean records of all my 10interviews with these people, the times, the dates, 11exactly what they said, by numbered paragraphs and so on? 12A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
Have you not seen in one of these memoranda that Christa 14Schroeder specifically disavows that remark by Albert 15Soller and says that she never said it? 16A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I would want to see that but I can quite accept that she 17might have said that, had it been derived from the other 18material used in the Soller book, certainly, yes. I make 19that quite clear, that the Soller book is a kind of hybrid 20of interrogations of Hofmann, Schaub and the Schroeder 21stuff, which is the majority of it. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
Do you have another name? 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, the famous incident recounted on pages 653 to 4, by 24Sonnleithner and also by Lorenz. 25MR IRVING: Sonnleithner replaced Walter Habel, did he not, for 26a time as the liaison officer of the foreign minister to

. P-148

1Adolf Hitler's staff? 2A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, Foreign Ministry official, that is right. This is 3quite a celebrated incident, so that is the last one, my 4Lord. 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much for doing that. 6MR IRVING: Since we are on that Maidonek episode that 7Sonnleithner relates here, is it not true that Ribbentrop, 8when he also heard the reports about Maidonek, expressed 9disbelief in September 1944? 10A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. He is quoted in fact on the next page, 655, as 11saying I did not know anything about the exterminations 12until the Maidonek affair came out in 44. 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, and that he discussed it one morning with his son 14Roland, did he not? 15A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That is right, yes. 16Q.
[Mr Irving]
As Roland told me, he said his father had asked him and 17shown him a copy of the Daily Mail reporting the Maidonek 18episode. 19A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. I am trying to find where I deal with this. I think 20it is earlier on. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
Does this not rather indicate that Ribbentrop was somewhat 22in the dark until then? 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
This is dealt with. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
Either he did not know or he did not want to know what was 25going on? 26A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
On pages 478 to 496 of my report.

. P-149

1MR JUSTICE GRAY: This is Ribbentrop on Hitler's knowledge, is 2that right, Professor? 3A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That is right, my Lord. 4MR IRVING: It is not really about this episode, is it? 5A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I am not quite sure what are you trying to ask. 6MR IRVING: I am asking whether you have not heard that 7Ribbentrop always maintained that the first he learned 8about the atrocities was when the reports came through the 9foreign press of Maidonek, the capture by the Russians of 10the Maidonek camp. 11A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
In 1944 he says -- on page 491 -- that is what he 12claimed, yes. Whether he is to be believed or not is 13quite a different matter. 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
Have you seen any evidence? 15A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, the conversation with Horthy that we were discussing 16this morning. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
We were discussing this morning, where Ribbentrop says, 18"if you are not prepared to lock them up in concentration 19camps the way we are demanding, then your only alternative 20is going to be to shoot them". Right? 21A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, he did not quite say that. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
That is what it boils down to, is it not? 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, it is not. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
Ribbentrop is saying, either you do what we say or the 25only other thing you could do is liquidate them, meaning 26there is no choice.

. P-150

1A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
We had better look up exactly what he said. 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is that not the sense of what he is saying? 3A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I do not accept your version of it. I think we need to be 4exact here. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is the whole burden of what Hitler and Ribbentrop have 6been saying to Horthy, you have a security problem, we are 7worried that you are going to break out of the alliance? 8A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Back to Horthy, no. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
The Jews are the biggest problem? 10A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, I do not think they said anything about a security 11problem unless you can point me to it. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
I am going to produce those documents to the court when we 13go back to the transcript. But is it not true? 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
The Reichs Foreign Minister replied that the Jews must 15either be annihilated or taken to concentration camps. 16There was no other way. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
That is right. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can you give the reference for that? 19A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Page 441, my Lord, of my report. 20MR IRVING: Is Ribbentrop in effect saying you have to lock 21them up as we demand because the only other thing you 22could do is with them is to kill them? 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, he is not. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
What is the difference? 25A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
He is not saying, lock them up or we will kill them. He 26is saying they must either be annihilated or taken to

. P-151

1concentration camps. 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
Tell me the difference between those two statements. 3A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
The first one, lock them up or we will kill them, says it 4is putting primacy, the emphasis on locking them up. The 5second one gives them two equal statuses and does not say 6anything about what is happen to them in the concentration 7camps. The words "lock them up" does not occur there. 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is it not possible, lock them away, put them in 9concentration camps? 10A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, it does not occur, not in what he says. 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is this not a perfectly feasible and reasonable 12explanation of the force that was applied to Horthy on 13that day, saying in blunt terms: You are going to have 14lock them away because, look, the only other thing you 15could do is kill them? 16A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Not at all. We are back on Horthy, all right. It is not 17at all what he says. Let us go through this all over 18again. Pages 441 to 442 of my report. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: Just a second. 20MR IRVING: I do not think we need to go through it all again. 21A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Horthy says, "what should he with the Jews after he had 22pretty well taken all means of living from them - he 23surely couldn't beat them to death - The Reich Foreign 24Minister replied that the Jews must either be annihilated 25or taken to concentration camps. There was no other way." 26 Hitler then says yes, "Where the Jews are left

. P-152

1to themselves, as for example i Poland, gruesome poverty 2and degeneracy had ruled. They were just pure parasites. 3One had fundamentally cleared up this state of affairs in 4Poland. If the Jews there did not want to work, they were 5shot. If they could not work, they had to perish. They 6had to be treated like tuberculosis bacilli, from which a 7healthy body could be infected. That was not cruel", 8Hitler goes on, "if one remembered that even innocent 9natural creatures like hares and deer had to be killed so 10that no harm was caused. Why should one spare the beasts 11who wanted to bring us Bolshevism any more? Nations who 12did not rid themselves of Jews perished". 13 That seems to be extremely open about what is to 14happen to the Jews whom Hitler and Ribbentrop want Horthy 15to deliver from Hungary over to their tender mercies. 16Q.
[Mr Irving]
I must protest against this wasting of the time of the 17court reading out time after time after time paragraphs 18that we have already heard. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, that is simply not fair, is it? 20We were on Ribbentrop's knowledge and you suggested that 21the first he knew was ---- 22MR IRVING: A perfectly reasonable explanation. 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: -- in 1944 when Maidonek surfaced, to which 24the witness, as I recall, replied no, it was obvious to 25Ribbentrop what was going on back in 1942 and he cited 26Horthy. That was why it all arose.

. P-153

1MR IRVING: I agree, and I put to him, not realising we were 2letting ourselves in for another torrent of quotations 3from his own report, page after page after page. 4A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It is a quotation from Hitler, Mr Irving. I know you do 5not want to hear Hitler saying the Jews have to be 6killed. That is why you want to shut me up, is it not? 7MR IRVING: A perfectly reasonable interpretation on the words 8that were used by Hitler and Ribbentrop to Horthy, which 9is to say, we are demanding you lock up all your Jews 10because of the security threat, which I shall establish to 11the court with the documents, and the only other thing you 12could do is kill them. In other words, you have no choice 13but to lock them up. 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I think that is a perverted and distorted interpretation 15which you are putting on this document in a completely 16illegitimate way in order to try and bolster up your 17totally untenable view that Hitler did not want the Jews 18killed and did not know about it. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us move on. 20MR IRVING: Professor Evans, we are thoroughly familiar with 21the fact that you do not like me but there is no need to 22keep on expressing it again and again and again. 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I have no personal feelings towards you one way or the 24other, Mr Irving. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can we all perhaps calm it a little bit and 26move on to the next topic. We have dealt with the

. P-154

1Adjutants. What are you wanting to ask about now? 2MR IRVING: We are dealing just with two tail end questions on 3the Horthy business. At page 441, footnote 7, you say 4that Paul Schmidt self serving memoirs are unreliable. 5Are memoirs sometimes unreliable when you so choose? 6A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, I am not using them. It is just a little note. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: The answer to that question must be yes. 8What is the next question? 9A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 10MR IRVING: Thank you very much, my Lord. 11A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It is not an important note. 12MR IRVING: Is a historian who researches, unlike yourself, 13both in the German but also in the Hungarian state files, 14and who finds in Hungarian state files no explicit 15reference to any discussion of killing at this Hitler 16Horthy meeting entitled therefore to assume that this did 17not bulk very large on that horizon? 18A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
At page 451 you talk in paragraph 14 about the effect of 20the bombing raids, in view of the fact that he had 21dismissed them as unimportant, it is highly unlikely that 22these bombing raids roused Hitler to an unprecedented 23anti-Semitic fury. Are you an expert on the bombing war 24as well then? 25A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Mr Irving, I have already said that I have a general level 26of expertise on the Third Reich and the Second World War,

. P-155

1Nazism, and historiography. I am not a specific expert on 2Auschwitz. I am not a specific expert on the bombing 3war. You could have many different levels of expertise. 4You could have someone who spends his whole life studying 5the history of a single village in 20th century Germany. 6If you want to know about the method of operation of gas 7chambers in Auschwitz, you ask an expert on that. My 8level of expertise is at a fairly general level. I have 9made that quite clear. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
So the answer is no? 11A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I am not the world's greatest expert on every issue which 12is discussed in these documents. I do not pretend to be. 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
The short answer is no. I do not mean that in any 14derogatory sense. 15A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I am sure you do mean it in a derogatory sense, Mr Irving. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: Come on. 17MR IRVING: When did the battle of the Ruhr start as it is 18referred to---- 19A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Let me just try and get across the point of what I am 20saying. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
If you do not know, just say so. 22A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Mr Irving, this is not "Who wants to be a millionaire". 23I am not going to stand here and be quizzed by you on 24names, facts and dates. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor Evans, come on. 26A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I want to try and explain what I put in my report.

. P-156

1MR JUSTICE GRAY: If I may say so, just confine yourself to a 2brief answer to the specific point. 3MR IRVING: Would you agree that the battle of the Ruhr started 4around March 5th 1943, with a series of very heavy violent 5air raids on the Ruhr, coupled with air raids on 6Nuremberg, which is a city that the Nazis felt very fond 7of, and that this battering of the German cities continued 8throughout March and April 1943? 9A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
This may very well have formed the back drop to the 11conversation between Hitler and Horthy? You should not 12therefore dismiss it in the way you do in paragraph 14. 13A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, I do not dismiss it. It is Hitler who dismisses it. 14He says the attacks themselves have been irritating but 15wholly trivial: "Die Angriffe selbst seien zwar storend, 16abere ganzlich belanglos". 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
If he refers in paragraph 17 to the effect of this bombing 18war, we know what the effects are because we have seen the 19photograph on women and children, then no doubt, although 20he is trying to act to his foreign visitors there to say 21this too we can take on the chin, in fact it is deeply 22upsetting and grieving him? 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I cannot see that it is, when he describes them as 24irritating but wholly trivial. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, if I am meant to be following 26this, I am afraid you have lost me completely.

. P-157

1MR IRVING: Paragraph 17, my Lord, page 452. 2A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I do not see any mention there. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: What is the suggestion? That because of the 4allied bombing raids Hitler was adopting a particular 5policy towards the Hungarian Jews? That is an enquiry, 6Mr Irving. I do not know what you are suggesting. 7MR IRVING: For some reason the witness has put in his 8paragraph 14 on page 451, he has dismissed the importance 9of the bombing raids and Hitler's particular feelings 10during the discussion with Horthy. 11A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, my Lord, this is a comment on the 1991 edition of 12Hitler's War. In the 1977 edition Mr Irving tries to make 13the Warsaw uprising as the trigger for Hitler's outburst 14to Admiral Horthy, even though the uprising started after 15they met. So he has withdrawn that in 1991. In 1991 he 16says, "in Hitler's warning to Horthy that the "Jewish 17Bolsheviks" would liquidate all Europe's intelligentsia, 18we can identify the Katyn episode. That is a massacre of 19Polish officers by Russians. A propaganda windfall about 20which Goebbels had just telephoned him. Hitler warmly 21approved Goebbels' suggestion that Katyn should be linked 22in the public's mind with the Jewish question. But the 23most persuasive argument used to reconcile Hitler with the 24harsher treatment of the Jews was the bombing war from 25documents and target maps found in crashed bombers he knew 26that the British air crews were instructed to aim only at

. P-158

1the residential areas, only one race murdered, he lectured 2to quailing Horthy, and that was the Jews. It was they 3who had provoked this war and given it its present 4character against civilians, women and children." These 5are wholly bogus claims by Mr Irving. The word Katyn is 6not mentioned at all in the Horthy Ribbentrop Hitler 7conversations. 8MR IRVING: Would Hitler ---- 9A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
"The source says that it is not that the British air crews 10are instructed to aim only at the residential areas, but 11to aim at them as well. Hitler describes these in the 12conversations with Horthy, when he is describing these air 13raids on Frankfurt, where the British bombers are 14instructed to destroy residential areas as well as 15industrial targets, Hitler says the attacks themselves 16have been irritating but wholly trivial". Now, if Hitler 17says that they are irritating but wholly trivial, it is 18very unlikely that he is so worked up into a passion about 19this that he indulges in an unusual outburst of 20anti-Semitism. That is all. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
Do you think Hitler was not worked up by the air raids 22on the Ruhr, on Nuremberg and elsewhere? Have you ever 23read Heiber's War Conferences, the verbatim stenographic 24records? 25A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
The attacks themselves had been irritating but wholly 26trivial.

. P-159

1MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I get a word in edgeways? You have just 2had quoted to you, Mr Irving, what Hitler himself appears 3to have said at the time so do you want really to pursue 4this any further? 5MR IRVING: They are trivial, yes. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do you want to pursue this any further? 7MR IRVING: At the risk of being lectured for repetition the 8fact that Adolf Hitler tells of visiting foreign 9dignitaries, effectively these British air raids are 10trivial, does not mean to say that he regarded them as 11trivial. Any more than if Winston Churchill had said in 121940 to Roosevelt, these air raids on London are trivial 13and Britain can take it. 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: Your suggestion is that Hitler was wanting to 15take reprisals on the Hungarian Jews because he was 16alarmed at the effect the allied bombing raids on Germany 17were having? 18MR IRVING: My Lord, it is not as simple as that. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: What is wrong with that? 20MR IRVING: It was all in the background of his mind. He is 21dealing with these Hungarians who are being obstreperous. 22They are not towing the line in the way that he expects 23all these visiting dignitaries to do to the Nazi dictator 24so all these things were welling up within him. He knows 25about Katyn. There is no question he knows about Katyn at 26this time. Any suggestion to the contrary is rubbish. He

. P-160

1know about the air raids. He has just taken a train right 2across Germany and seen the devastation of the cities. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is why he talks about killing the 4Hungarian Jews? 5MR IRVING: I think that comes under the category of increasing 6the climate of barbarism. It increases the atmosphere. 7Things that would have been unthinkable in 1939 become 8more thinkable and that is when you start talking 9tougher. They are talking tough. They are saying, if you 10do not want to lock them up, what alternative do you 11have? You are either going to have to lock them up or you 12are going to have to kill them, which means effectively 13you can only lock them up. 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is there any more on Horthy because I thought 15we had dealt with Horthy this morning. 16MR IRVING: No, we moved on from Horthy a long time ago. 17A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I did not take that as a question, my Lord, that I dispute 18virtually everything Mr Irving has said. 19MR IRVING: 453, Professor. You take it ill that I have left 20out entirely the Hitler Antonescu conference? 21A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, you do not leave it out entirely, Mr Irving. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
The second half of it? 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, exactly. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. Should I have mentioned every single diplomatic 25conference in which Hitler engaged during World War II? 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: Obviously not.

. P-161

1MR IRVING: Obviously not. That is exactly my answer. 2A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
But you do mention it. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
You accuse me of having left out the half that matters, 4the second half. 5A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
Because it was in two halves, this conference, was it not? 7A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That is right. Another two day meeting, 12th April, 13th 8April 1943, just before Hitler met Horthy. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
Does this particular conference that you set out on page 10453 add one iota to our knowledge of the whole problem? 11Is not our aim always to try and simplify the issues 12rather than just keep on repeating and repeating? 13A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
You discuss the 12th April meeting but you omit the 13th 14April because here again is Hitler giving voice to extreme 15anti-semitic sentiments. 16Q.
[Mr Irving]
Well, big deal. 17A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I know you think it is not a big deal, Mr Irving. The 18Fuhrer took the view that one must proceed against the 19Jews, the more radically the better. The Fuhrer said he 20would rather burn all his bridges behind him because the 21Jewish hatred is so enormously great anyway. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
Does it add anything to our knowledge? 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, I think it does. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
Which word adds something to our knowledge? 25A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I think Hitler's anti-semitic statements here are another 26example of his extreme anti-Semitism at this time, which

. P-162

1was not a chance or temporary product, exceptional 2product, of anger against bombing raids which he dismissed 3as being trivial or against the Kateen massacre which you 4do not mention in these contexts. These are just another 5example of Hitler's extreme anti-semitism. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: If Mr Irving is right about the 7Schlegelberger memorandum, he is talking about a problem 8that he had already decided should be postponed until the 9end of the war. 10A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. It does not look very much like that here, does it, 11my Lord, since he is exerting enormous pressure on these 12foreign governments to deliver up their Jews for 13extermination. 14MR IRVING: Or to lock them away? This is what the Horthy 15conference is about, is it not? 16A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It is not about locking them away, Mr Irving. We have 17been through this many times. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: We have had that argument. Let us press on, 19Mr Irving. 20MR IRVING: Yes. But you said to deliver them up for 21extermination, you have no evidence for the second half of 22that phrase, do you? 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That is what happened, Mr Irving. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
So in other words, you are extrapolating backwards from 25what allegedly happen to the intention of this conference? 26A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
From what happened, and it seems a reasonable connection

. P-163

1to make. 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
My Lord, the next point is the deportation of the Jews 3from Rome, and here again I am not sure whether I have to 4attend to this or not. I am prepared to attend to this or 5not. I am prepared to attend to it but I am not sure if 6Mr Rampton ---- 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: On Thursday I think you said that you were 8wanting to because it was a completely false criticism. 9MR IRVING: Obviously there are bits that I want to take out of 10it but if I can just look at page 457, line 4, the 11allegation or the comment is made that I omitted a 12sentence from the 1991 edition of Hitler's War. 13A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
The SS liquidated them anyway, regardless of Hitler's 15order. 16A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
Now, is the quality of information on the liquidation as 18good as it is for the deportation as far as Hitler is 19concerned? 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are going to have to just slightly set 21the scene for me, Mr Irving. If we dart from one topic to 22another, I have not spent 30 or 40 years on this, so can 23you help me a little bit? 24MR IRVING: I will do it in two lines rather than allow the 25witness to do it in 25. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: That was what I was inviting you to do.

. P-164

1MR RAMPTON: I do believe that Mr Irving should stop being so 2offensive. It does not improve the climate in court and 3this is a distinguished scholar. He may not be an expert 4on the Holocaust, and I really do think Mr Irving ought to 5mind his tongue, if I may respectfully say so. 6MR IRVING: I will do it in two lines then. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that is a point to be heeded. I know 8tempers run high and they inevitably do, but I think, if 9one can try and keep it civil on all sides, that does 10help. 11MR IRVING: My Lord, with respect, for seven days and in 750 12pages of this report, I have had to listen to the most 13defamatory utterances poured over my head by witnesses who 14speak in the knowledge that their remarks are privileged. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is why I said I understand that tempers 16run high, but lack of civility is not the way to deal with 17an attack of the kind that is mounted on you i Professor 18Evans' report. That is all I was saying. 19MR IRVING: I would hate to think that I had been uncivil on 20any occasion in the previous seven days, my Lord. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us move on. 22MR IRVING: Undeservedly uncivil, anyway. 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: You were going to tell me in two lines. 24MR IRVING: In two lines as opposed to -- well, in two lines. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: A few lines. Do your best. I know you are 26darting from one topic to another as well.

. P-165

1MR IRVING: On October 6th 1943 the SS chief in Rome said we 2have received orders to transfer 12,000 Jews from Rome to 3northern Italy and liquidate them. This message went to 4Ribbentrop, who dashed across to Hitler's headquarters and 5back went the message from the Foreign Ministry down to 6Rome, saying they are not to be liquidated they are to be 7taken to Mauthausen and kept as hostages. 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I know. I have read about it but now 9you have reminded me, thank you very much. 10A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
My Lord that is Mr Irving's version. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Wait for the question? 12A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I make it clear I do not accept it. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: What is the question? 14MR IRVING: Professor Evans, which part of that statement do 15you not accept? 16A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, if I can just say that the actual context is that 17the German military diplomatic representatives in Rome, 18which had been occupied by the Germans, the local 19representative there wanted to stop the Jews of Rome being 20killed by proposing that they should be employed locally 21as forced labour in military installations. Hitler 22intervened via Ribbentrop to override them and ordered the 23Jews to be taken off and murdered, which eventually they 24were in Auschwitz. So that what Mr Irving is portraying 25as an intervention by Hitler in order to save the Jews 26was, when one looks at the documents and restores the bits

. P-166

1which he suppressed, actually the opposite. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Does it depend a bit what is meant by taking 3them to northern Italy and keeping them as hostages? 4A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That does to some extent, my Lord, yes, but also 5Mauthausen of course is notoriously a concentration camp 6in a class of its own, where the purpose was essentially 7to kill the inmates off by working them to death. 8MR IRVING: How would you keep 12,000 just as hostages, if you 9kill them off by working them to death? 10A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Let us have a look at the document, shall we? We are 11getting down to business here. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
You have none of these documents in your head, Professor? 13A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I need ---- 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
Have you noticed that throughout this cross-examination I 15have ---- 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, that is unhelpful. If he does not 17have it in his head, I, for one, would not criticise him 18for a second. 19A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I want to be absolutely clear about what the documents 20said, say, and we must look at them in order to do that 21because your interpretations are so often wildly 22implausible. The problem with that is that there seems to 23be nowhere at this time where they could have been kept. 24There is a not a concentration camp there. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mauthausen does not sound as if it is 26northern Italy.

. P-167

1A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Mauthausen, no, it is... 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
It is in southern Germany? 3A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes -- as it was at that time. So, talk of "Upper Italy" 4seems to be camouflage language. 5MR IRVING: Who was talking of "Upper Italy"? Hitler or the 6SS? 7A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Let us have a look. 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
It was the SS, was it not? The SS said: "They are to be 9taken to northern Italy and liquidated" which is quite 10plain. They do not even use euphemisms, do they? 11A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, that not quite true. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
Well, "liquidated" does not appear to be a euphemism? 13A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, I do not think it is the SS who say that. 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
"Liquidiert"? 15A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, I do not think that is the SS. I think it is the 16local consul in ---- 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
Consul Eitl Moellhausen? 18A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, it is the local Foreign Office official in Rome. It 19is not the SS who say that. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. He says: "The SS have told us they are going to 21take 12,000 Jews from Rome to northern Italy and liquidate 22them"? 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That is right, yes. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
And the message goes straight to Hitler's headquarters? 25A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
An extremely tactless use of language by this man. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
No euphemisms, no "auswanderung", no "umsiedlung",

. P-168

1nothing? 2A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, but, of course, he was trying to stop this. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
What you cannot get around is the fact that the order 4comes back after Ribbentrop goes to see Hitler saying, 5"They are not to be liquidated. They are to be kept 6alive as hostages in Mauthausen". It could not be more 7specific? 8A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
And all the other messages are irrelevant in that 10connection? 11A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, I am sorry, that is not true at all. What you 12suppress is the fact that the local officials wanted to 13use them for, as it says, the telegram 201, "prefer to use 14the able-bodied Jews of Rome for fortification work 15here". So the local Foreign Office and military officials 16are proposing two telegrams, in fact, that it would be 17better business, says the other one, to use the Jews for 18fortification work rather than bringing them to Upper 19Italy where they are to be liquidated". 20 So, let us get this quite clear. We are not 21talking about hostages in Upper Italy. I will read this 22telegramme in full. "Obersturmbannfuhrer Kappler has 23received orders to arrest the 8,000 Jews resident in Rome 24and bring them to upper Italy where they are to be 25liquidated ... (reading to the words)... Please advise 26Moellhausen".

. P-169

1 Then another telegram, Field Marshal Kesselring 2has asked Oberstrunbannfuhrer Kappler to postpone the plan 3Juden Aktion for the time being, but if something has to 4be done, he would "prefer to use the able-bodied Jews of 5Rome for fortification work here". 6 So that is their proposal that they are making 7to the authorities in Berlin, particularly to Ribbentrop, 8and they, in other words, the idea, the notion of Upper 9Italy, since there is nowhere they could be taken there, 10is, I think, a euphemism for taking them off to somewhere 11like Auschwitz ---- 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can I help to cut through this verbiage and ask you ---- 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, that is unnecessarily offensive, 14Mr Irving. 15MR IRVING: Well, to cut through this particular line of 16argument and say were the ---- 17A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, I know you want to cut through this particular line 18of argument, Mr Irving, because you do not like it. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: Please continue, Professor Evans? 20A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Thank you, my Lord. There is an additional document where 21on, it says, the local officials in Rome get back the 22message in answer to these telegrams on the basis of the 23Fuhrer's instructions. The Fuhrer's instructions, "the 248,000 Jews resident in Rome are to be taken to Mauthausen 25as hostages. The Heireich Foreign Minister asks you not 26to interfere in any way with this affair but leave it to

. P-170

1the SS. Please inform Ambassador Rahn". 2 Another, still a telegram, again the same thing, 3taken to Rome -- taken to Mauthausen as hostages. The 4Reich Foreign Minister requests that Moran and Moellhausen 5be told under no circumstances to interfere in this affair 6but rather to leave it to the SS from Sohn Leitner". 7 And a further or even tougher line, Foreign 8Minister insists to his local officials that "you keep out 9of all questions concerning Jews". The SS, they should be 10the exclusive competence of the SS. 11 So what they are being told on Hitler's orders 12is, "Stay out of it. Go away with your proposal that they 13be used locally in Rome on building works." They are all 14going to be taken off on Hitler's orders to Mauthausen. 15 Now, hostages, well, one has to look at what 16went on in Mauthausen. This was, as I said, a 17concentration camp in a class of its own in which murder, 18mass murder by brutality and overwork and malnourishment 19was the order of the day. It had an extremely high 20mortality rate. 21MR IRVING: What use is a dead hostage? 22A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
"Hostages" I think is a camouflage word again. 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
Another euphemism, another camouflage word? 24A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Indeed, yes. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
Goodness! They are more useful than aspirin, are they 26not, these words?

. P-171

1A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Of course, taking them to Mauthausen was a euphemism and 2in the end they were, in fact, taken to Auschwitz. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
I have been very reluctant ---- 4A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
If you want to know what happened to hostages taken to 5Mauthausen ---- 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can I take it piece by piece what you have been 7saying ---- 8A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Outline it on page ---- 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let him complete this because once they have 10got to Auschwitz, that is the end and then you can ask 11questions. 12A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
If you want to know what happened to so-called "hostages" 13taken to Mauthausen, I outline it ---- 14MR IRVING: In great detail? 15A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
--- on page 476: 16Q.
[Mr Irving]
Why not read it all out and waste another 10 minutes? 17A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
400 young men rounded up in the Jewish quarter in 18Holland ---- 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: We have the reference. We have the 20reference. 21A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
--- taken as "hostages" to Buchenwald and then 348 to 22Mauthausen. Most, nearly all of them, apart from one, 23were killed. That is that happens to hostages at 24Mauthausen. As I said, these ones went to Auschwitz where 25the vast majority were also killed. It is quite clear 26this Hitler knew that would happen to them.

. P-172

1MR JUSTICE GRAY: Now, that was a long answer and now, 2Mr Irving, you have had the case spelled out, as it were 3and ---- 4MR IRVING: And I have also read it and your Lordship has read 5it and I do not think it really needed to be read out. 6Still, here we go with some short questions and let us 7have some short answers, please. Kesselring wanted to use 8them for fortification work, is that right? 9A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
Were they used for fortification work? 11A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
So that was a rather needless detour in this particular 13argument, was it not? 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, absolutely not. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, Mr Irving, that will not do. We have to 16tackle this point properly if it is going to be tackled at 17all. As I understand what the witness is saying, he is 18saying that, basically, those on the ground in Rome, 19including Kesselring, wherever he may have been -- in 20Italy? 21A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
General. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, all basically wanted the Jews to stay in Rome? 23MR IRVING: For whatever reason they wanted them kept alive. 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: For whatever reason. 25MR IRVING: They wanted them kept alive and not liquidated. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: One of the points he makes is that when it is

. P-173

1sent up to Hitler, they do not remain in Rome as a result 2of Hitler being consulted, they go north for whatever 3fate. So Kesselring's attitude towards the Jews is 4relevant, is it not? Can you not see why the Professor 5says that? 6MR IRVING: I see those telegrams in Rome as being purely 7evidence that different people in Rome advance different, 8all very plausible, reasons why these Jews should not be 9rounded up and liquidated, which is what the SS wanted, 10but they should be kept alive, and Kesselring, who was a 11decent chap, said, "Well, I can use them for 12fortifications, let us use them for that, let us put that 13in the telegram" or whatever, and all of this, to all of 14this, and I say this quite boldly knowing that it will 15provoke the wrong reaction, I attach no significant 16whatsoever and far less significance than the fact that 17Ribbentrop took the message to Hitler, as we know from 18Hitler's register, the register kept by Heinz Linge, of 19the visits by Ribbentrop that day, and back came the 20telegram from Hitler's headquarters, effectively, back to 21Rome saying, "They are not to be liquidated. They are to 22be taken to Mauthausen", and I rely on this, "as 23hostages", and I emphasise hostages have, by their very 24nature, to be kept alive, so whether or not Mauthausen was 25a highly infectious place to be sent, or a place where 26people died like flies, which is unfortunately true, is

. P-174

1neither here nor there; what is significant is that the 2message from Hitler to Ribbentrop clearly was, "See that 3they are taken to Mauthausen and kept alive, we can use 4them as hostages". I then also rely on the fact that, 5notwithstanding that this very clear order is in the files 6(which I understand the Defence have great problems with 7because it is much better than this kind of memoir quality 8of document that they rely upon) notwithstanding that, 9these orders from Hitler are flagrantly violated and they 10are taken off to Mauthausen, but 1,000 of them are rounded 11up, 1035, or thereabouts, that is all they can get their 12hands on, because in the meantime the local officials have 13managed to let the Jews escape, and the 1,000 are taken 14elsewhere and they are never seen again. They are taken 15to Auschwitz or somewhere. This is another, to my mind, 16highly significant fact that Hitler's orders have been 17violated. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: If may say so, Mr Irving, that was not a 19question, and I do not criticize you at all for that 20because you have set out your case as clearly a Professor 21Evans set out his case ---- 22MR IRVING: Now I will ask the Professor ---- 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- and I do not personally see that there is 24a great deal of need to amplify it by lot of 25cross-examination because it all turns on the question 26whether one takes at face value and literally the order

. P-175

1that they are to be taken no Mauthausen as "hostages". 2That is what it comes to. 3MR IRVING: I will ask one supplementary question. 4A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
May I just comment on what Mr Irving said which included 5several gross misrepresentations of the document ---- 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: Briefly. 7A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
--- so I am afraid I really do have to point this out. 8The telegram giving Hitler's view did not say they are not 9to be liquidated. That is a complete fabrication that has 10emerged from Mr Irving here. The point is that the 11original protest, as it were, from the local officials in 12Rome are saying that the SS wants to liquidate them, and 13what is Hitler's response? "Leave it up to the SS". 14 Finally, also, of course this is in mid October 151943 and Mr Irving has made it quite clear that from 16October 1943 Hitler knew perfectly well that the 17extermination of the Jews was taking place. 18MR IRVING: He had no reason not to know is what I say, of 19course. 20A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
You actually have said that he did know. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: But, Professor Evans, can I just ask you 22this, I mean, if you look at the instructions that came 23back from Hitler's headquarters, they do say in terms that 24the Jews are to be taken to Mauthausen as hostages? 25A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 26Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
And it is true it goes on to say, "Leave it to the SS".

. P-176

1That does not mean leave it to the SS to decide what to do 2with them, or would not appear so on the face of this 3telegram. It means, "Leave the handling of the hostages 4and the arrangements", I suppose, "for taking them north 5to the SS". Is that not a fair reading of the reference 6to the SS? 7A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, my Lord, well, it is saying, the two telegrams 8I quote are saying to the local officials: "Keep out of 9it. Leave it to the SS", and the SS, of course, are the 10instrument through which the Jews are being exterminated. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Who would have arranged for their transport 12north -- the SS, presumably? 13A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
The SS, my Lord, yes. The message is quite clear: "No 14local works, no use of labour. Just take them off and 15kill them". 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: I follow that point, yes. 17MR IRVING: Are you familiar very briefly with the Otto 18Brottigan diary of September 1941 where Hitler agrees to 19the notion that the Jews should be held as hostages ---- 20A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That is September '41. This is October '43. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
Does Hitler frequently order Jews kept alive as hostages 22in bulk, en masse? 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
There are instances up until the American declaration of 24war -- the declaration of war by Germany on America on the 2511th December 1941 where Hitler does talk, in general 26terms, about using Jews as hostages for the event of a

. P-177

1World War. It seems to disappear after that. There are 2some -- we have already discussed the rather odd idea of 3keeping a small number of Jews with connections in America 4in a special camp and keeping them alive. But this, 5I think, I cannot conceive why these should be used as 6hostages. It is simply one word. There is not 7explanation of any larger policy, as you usually have when 8hostages are discussed. 9 I think this is simply a little piece of 10camouflage thrown in to try to appease the obviously 11disquieted local officials in Rome where the situation is 12extremely difficult, the Pope is threatening to 13intervene. It is quite clear that the local Italian 14population are extremely unhappy about the Jews being 15taken away and doing their best, such as it was, to 16protect them. 17 The members of the Foreign -- of the Embassy in 18Rome were connected with the German opposition, which 19eventually came out in 1944, the bomb plot. So it is a 20very convoluted and difficult situation. It is not 21surprising that they should want to sugar the pill a 22little bit by describing them as "hostages". 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
We do have several SS documents from this episode, do we 24not, a couple of documents? 25A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is there any indication in any of the Himmler files or the

. P-178

1SS files that this document from Hitler was regarded or 2recognized as being camouflage, and that "Although Hitler 3says, 'Send them to Mauthausen as hostages', we all know 4what the old boy really wants" is not in any of the SS 5files, is it? 6A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
I am going to move on now, my Lord, because otherwise we 8are not going to cover the ground. Page 491, the last few 9lines, please, of the main text. You say: "This last 10mentioned claim is an obvious untruth. It is undermined 11by Ribbentrop's knowledge of the activity and situation 12reports of the Einsatzgruppen". Do you remember writing 13that? 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
What evidence do you have that Ribbentrop read or received 16the SD Einsatzgruppen reports, the Einsatzgruppen reports? 17The mere fact that they are in the Foreign Office files? 18A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, I am relying here on the two standards works on the 19Foreign Office and the Jewish question of the Third Reich 20by Professor Browning. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
Are you aware that we heard Professor Donald Watt state 22here in the witness box that there were hundreds of tonnes 23of Foreign Office records? 24A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
As I remember, Professor Cameron Watt said that he was not 25really competent to judge on the nature of records during 26the Second World War. His expertise covered the period

. P-179

11933 to '39. 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
Are you aware of any copies of these SD reports which have 3Ribbentrop's big letter "R", his initial on them, to 4indicate that he has read them? 5A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I would have to check that up in the sources that I used 6which make it clear that Ribbentrop knew of these things. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
In your opinion? 8A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
In the opinion of Professor Browning whom you had ample 9opportunity to question about the matter. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, but I am questioning you on your report. You say 11there is ample evidence that Ribbentrop knew, and I am 12asking you what the evidence is and your information is 13second-hand, is that correct? 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Indeed, yes. I rely o Professor Browning for that. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
Page 484 ---- 16A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That is not the only evidence, of course. There is also 17the Horthy conversation with Ribbentrop which I have also 18mentioned. Page 484? 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
Page 484, you write two-thirds of the way down: "Irving 20is, of course, aware of this exchange which suppresses it 21altogether". What proof do you have in writing that I am 22aware of this exchange? 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Because you used the Goebbels Nuremberg diary as a source. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
No, I did not. 25A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Right, then "Nuremberg, the last battle" ---- 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
I have used one extract from the Gilbert book.

. P-180

1A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. That is note 27 on page 143 of "Nuremberg, the last 2battle". 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
Which is one extract from the Gilbert book which is the 4Julius Schreiber papers. Does that mean to say that 5I have read the entire book? 6A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
One would presume so, yes. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
Are you aware that I had in fact Gilbert's original papers 8when I wrote the Nuremberg book? 9A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. So, in other words, you assume something there which 11turns out not necessarily to be true? 12A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, since you cite the book in your work, I assume you 13have read it. 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes, two lines from the bottom of that page you say, 15"Ribbentrop writing under duress in allied 16captivity" ---- 17A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, you say that. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
--- do you accept that he was writing under duress? 19A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Sorry, you say that. You say: "Special 20circumstances ... (reading to the words) ... Ribbentrop 21writing under duress in allied captivity" ---- 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
But if you turn the page ---- 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
--- "and facing an inevitable death sentence has to be 24borne in mind". Well, he was in captivity, of course, and 25he was facing a death sentence. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
Are you familiar with the physical conditions that the

. P-181

1prisoners lived in at Nuremberg? 2A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
No table, no medication, no hygiene, no light, no 4spectacles and all the rest of it? 5A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, I am not sure I accept all of that. 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
Page 486: Hitler's last will and testament, or his 7political testament. This is the one he dictated on the 8last day of his life, is that right? 9A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
486 -- 5 to 6. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
5 to 6? 11A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
We may have slightly different pagination here. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
I am looking just at the first two lines. My Lord, do you 13have that? 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
The last five lines of page 485 and first two of ---- 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Last five lines on page 485? 16A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, the indented quotation, my Lord. 17MR IRVING: I said page 486, the last... 18A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, the first two of page 486. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
What do you think Hitler meant by the Jews "having to 20atone for his guilt", "the Jew having to atone for his 21guilt even if by more humane means than being burned alive 22in air raids", and so on. What do you think he meant 23by ---- 24A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, let us read the quotation. "I also made it quite 25plain that if the nations of Europe are going to be 26regarded as mere shares to be bought and sold by those

. P-182

1international conspirators in money and finance, then 2Jewry, the race which is" -- sorry, "then, Jewry, the race 3which is the real criminal in this murderous struggle will 4be saddled with the responsibility. I further", says 5Hitler, "left no one in doubt that this time millions of 6Europe's Aryan peoples would not die of hunger, millions 7of grown men would not suffer death, nor would hundreds 8and thousands of women and children be allowed to be 9burned and bombed to death in the towns without the real 10criminal having to atone for his guilt", that is the Jew, 11of course, "even if by more humane means". I assume there 12he is saying it is not, I mean, it is not bombing and 13burning to death in the towns or dying of hunger. It is 14shooting and gassing. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
So you think that he is referring there to the Holocaust, 16the Auschwitz, the gas chambers, the cyanide, the choking 17to death, all the horrible things that have been 18described? 19A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Now, I am not saying I agree that it was humane; I am just 20saying he thought it was humane, or appears to say so 21here. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
Could it not equally ---- 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
He was always, after all, and we have had several 24quotations today, congratulating himself on how humane he 25was towards the Jews. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
Does it not make for greater sense than this rather

. P-183

1plausible suggestion that the Holocaust was humane which 2is what you are proposing? 3A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I am not proposing it. It is Hitler who is proposing it. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
Which is what you are proposing is the meaning on this 5word, to be assigned to this word, that what Hitler is 6saying that, "We have had hundreds thousands, if not 7millions, of people burned alive, women and children, in 8our cities and we have just deported the Jews, booted them 9out to Siberia", or wherever he thought they had gone, and 10that is what he is referring to when he talks about them 11having had to atone for their guilt by more humane means, 12because the only other alternative is that you are 13accepting that the Holocaust was more humane? 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, that is not at all. That is another classic example 15of the way you twist everything to your own polemical 16purposes. I am not saying the Holocaust was more humane. 17I am not making a judgment at all. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
Or being machine gunned into pits? 19A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I am simply quoting Hitler, and Hitler is saying that the 20Jews will have to atone for what he regards as their crime 21of having killed millions of Aryans through hunger, 22burning alive and so on, they will have to atone for it by 23more humane means which, I assume, he means, not explicit 24about it at all, he means gassing, possibly shooting. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
Well, the reason for that is, of course, you say there is 26a connection between that and the memorandum submitted in

. P-184

1July 1941 by Ralf Heinz Hupner who says, "Would it not be 2more humane to find some rapidly working means of 3disposing of the Jews rather than have them exposed to the 4privations of the winter?" 5A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Where do I say that? 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
This is on page 486 -- I am sorry, 489. 7A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
9? 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 9A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
Are you suggesting that the Hupner message was ever shown 11to or read by Hitler? Was it not addressed to Adolf 12Eichmann? Are you suggesting there is a direct causal 13link between the Hupner message and the Hitler ---- 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, I am not. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
So just a bit of a smoke screen by you then? 16A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, it is not a smoke screen. I am drawing attention to 17the parallel there as ---- 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
Or do you think ---- 19A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
--- as evidence of a wider mind set. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
Or do you think that the reference to humanity or humane 21is, in fact, an allusion to the blockade that we, Allies, 22imposed on Germany in World War I and after World War I 23which resulted in the deaths of large numbers of Germans? 24A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I see no evidence of that in this statement by Hitler. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
490, in paragraph 11, you cast doubt on the secretly 26recorded conversation between Ribbentrop and a British

. P-185

1officer? 2A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
Paragraph 11 on page 490? 4A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No. Where do I cast doubt on that? 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
490? 6A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Right, I have it, paragraph 11. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
"Irving claims he had a fund of collateral documentary 8evidence"? 9A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
And you then lament the fact that there is this secretly 11recorded transcript which does not seem to have been 12included in my list of documents, and so on? 13A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. I am very cautious there -- conscious I might have 14overlooked it, but it does not seem to be there. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
You are not familiar with the XP series of transcripts 16which are in my files -- you accept that it is possible it 17was in the documents? 18A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, that is why I have phrased it cautiously there. 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
Page 491, paragraph 14, does that paragraph, far from 20being contradictory, not actually confirm that Ribbentrop 21asked Hitler and Hitler denied all knowledge and that was 22the end of it? This is the Maidonek episode. 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, no, he is just saying he did not know anything about 24it until the Maidonek affair. That is all it says. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
493, paragraph 5.1.1. I just draw his Lordship's 26attention to the fact the witness appears to be pleading

. P-186

1innuendos of words there which is not part of his remit. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I will not pay any attention to that. 3MR IRVING: Page 495, paragraph 5.1.5, if I can find it? 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, that simply says that he is going to 5deal with the statistics and the numbers killed in the 6raids on Dresden. 7MR IRVING: Yes. You say that my number of deaths in Hamburg 8of what I put at 48 -- did I say 48,000, 50,000? 9A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
48, 50,000, yes. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
And you consider this number to be totally exaggerated and 11perverse and another example of my manipulation and 12distortion? 13A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It is not a very strong argument, but you do go for the 14highest number available. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is the reason ---- 16A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Which does not seem to have any basis and certainly is not 17---- 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
Have you not ---- 19A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It certainly is not borne out by the local investigations. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
Have you not repeatedly referred to the fact that I have 21gone for these 50,000 figure in Hamburg and the high 22figure in Dresden and Fortzheime and elsewhere as an 23example of the distortions and false statistics that 24I introduced? 25A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I think this is the only other mention of Hamburg, apart 26from the brief discussion of your use of the exaggerated

. P-187

1figure in the caption to an illustration in one of your 2books. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
Are you now back peddling on that because ---- 4A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It is not repeated. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
Are you now back peddling on that because you have seen 6the page from the strategic air offensive against Germany, 7the official history which I have introduced in that 8little bundle? My Lord, it is page 9 of the little 9bundle, pages 8 and 9. Does footnote 1 say in regard to 10the Hamburg air raid: "In addition, there were 2,000 11missing. The total number of deaths was probably nearer 1250,000 than 40,000"? 13A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Sorry. 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: Sorry, page? 15MR IRVING: It is page 9 of the little bundle this morning, my 16Lord. 17A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It does not say which raid this was. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
That is going to be your answer, is it? 19A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, I mean, I take it that is 43, yes. Well, what I 20would say is that a responsible historian should in 21reaching an estimation of the number of people killed in 22bombing raid should look at all the available 23investigations there have been. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
Would you consider ---- 25A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
And this is from 1961 which is relatively early after the 26event and does not actually give any source, any German

. P-188

1source, at all. 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
Would you consider ---- 3A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
The German investigations in Hamburg of the bombing deaths 4came to a much lower figure. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
Would you consider that Sir Charles Webster and Nobel 6Franklin, the official historians who had the complete 7captured German and British records at their disposal in 8writing this multi-volume work, are reasonable historians 9for another historian to use as a source? 10A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, let me -- two points -- yes, but this is 1961. I 11mean, there have been plenty of German investigations of 12the Hamburg bombing raids since then which a responsible 13historian would use. This is relatively early after the 14event and it does not cite any German material here at 15all. 16MR JUSTICE GRAY: We are talking about Hamburg here, are we? 17MR IRVING: Yes, we are talking about the 1943 raid on hamburg. 18Are you aware that volume 4 of this work contains the 19entire police president's report on the Hamburg air raid 20as an appendix? 21A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It is not cited here in arriving at the numbers killed. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can you answer my question? 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
So, in other words, it does have German documents as 25source? 26A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Not cited as a basis for the their estimation of 50,000.

. P-189

1In fact, the figure they give is 42,600, whoever has 2reported that. Again, there is no footnoted source for 3that. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. Are you aware that ---- 5A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
And their estimate of nearer 50,000 than 40,000 is very 6much a guess, as the footnote makes quite clear. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
In 1961, of course, there were still the 50 year rule in 8operation which prevented the official historians from 9giving sources, is that correct? 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, knowing what the sources said? 11A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, they certainly cite sources here. 12MR IRVING: My Lord, you can take it from me that the official 13historians in their volumes, the early volumes, unlike the 14later volumes, never gave sources. 15A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
But the 50-year rule did not apply to German documents, 16Mr Irving ---- 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
Have you ---- 18A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
--- at all. It applied ---- 19Q.
[Mr Irving]
Answer the question then. As an historian ---- 20A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It applied to British documents. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
--- and as an expert witness before this court, no doubt 22you have read ---- 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
What I am saying is that they did not use German 24documents. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
As an expert witness before this court, you have, no 26doubt, read large numbers of the official histories. Do

. P-190

1any of the official histories every provide any sourced 2references up until the most recent official histories of 3the intelligence service, and so on, which has changed the 4pattern? 5A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, well, I mean, that is as may be. The point I am 6trying to make is that since 1961, whatever they had 7available to them, and there have been numerous 8investigations which a responsible historian would make 9use of in arriving at an estimation of the numbers of dead 10in the Hamburg bombing raid in 1943, investigations 11carried out in Hamburg itself on the local Hamburg 12records. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do we need to spend very long on Hamburg 14because we are really in this case, I think, concerned 15with Dresden. 16MR IRVING: It is difficult; each time when I think I have 17established a point to the court's satisfaction, we are 18dragged back down into the morass again, into the swamps. 19Strafing, page 500, I am at a loss here because there is 20no TV set, television, in the courtroom today and I was 21going to provide the court with ---- 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: You can do it at a later stage. 23MR IRVING: At a later stage. It is a five minute segment ---- 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: Am I wrong in thinking -- I am trying to 25remember -- have you cross-examined about Dresden 26before ----

. P-191

1MR IRVING: I have been cross-examined about Dresden. 2MR RAMPTON: I cross-examined Mr Irving about the bombing 3figures. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I had an idea he cross-examined one of 5your witnesses about Dresden, but no? 6MR RAMPTON: I do not think so, no. 7MR IRVING: No. I have been cross-examined, but I have done no 8cross-examination. 9MR RAMPTON: On the bombing ---- 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sorry, Mr Irving, I am wrong. 11MR RAMPTON: It seemed the strafing to me was relatively 12insignificant. 13MR IRVING: On the question of strafing, and you have quoted a 14book by Mr Gurtz Bergander quite frequently, have you not? 15A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 16Q.
[Mr Irving]
Are you aware that Gurtz Bergander is (or was at all 17material times) a reporter for the German Government radio 18station? Did Bergander interview any of the aircrew 19members? If you do not know just say so. On page 500 20roughly. If you do not know just say you do not know. 21A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I cannot remember, to be honest. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
Have you read any of my notes on the interviews with the 23British and American aircrew members? 24A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
There is an awful lot of them, Mr Irving. I have 25concentrated on what you published. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
But if you are trying to impugn the question whether the

. P-192

1British or the Americans opened fire with their machine 2guns during the raids, then this would be the kind of 3place to look for the source, would it not? 4A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, yes. 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: The British opened fire with machine guns, 6did they? 7MR IRVING: At night, yes, my Lord. It was just typical of the 8useless exuberance. They would just poop off. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: The relevance of that is what? 10MR IRVING: Strafing, the allegation of ground strafing. It is 11levelled more directly against the Americans during the 12day-time raids. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is what I thought. 14MR IRVING: Yes. Page 503. 15A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Sorry, I thought you said they did this during the day. 16MR IRVING: Yes. Page 500? 17A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Not at night. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
Page 503. 19A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
Paragraph 2: The witness here was a judge called Dr Wolf 21Rektenwault, that is correct? 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: There is nothing about strafing by British 23aeroplanes. 24A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It is Americans. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is the Americans. 26MR IRVING: It is left open as to whether it is the British or

. P-193

1the Americans. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is not left open. It is just not 3mentioned. It is the Americans. 4MR IRVING: I would not have included that if I had thought it 5was just limited to the Americans, my Lord. But what 6I intend to do ---- 7A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It says American fighters. 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am mystified why we were strafing at all. 9MR IRVING: Because I am accused of inventing it or having 10adduced it without adequate evidence or the usual kind of 11story, and what I have here is an American television film 12on the Dresden raid in which that interviewed some of the 13people involved. 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: The point is that you have interviewed 15American airmen who have said they did not strafe? 16MR IRVING: I interviewed or corresponded with large numbers of 17the American airmen and I read their Unit histories. It 18is not a major point. 19A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Ah, yes, these are the members of the 20th Fighter Group. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
And other units. 21A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Who, in fact, were strafing i Prague, not in Dresden, 22though you say it is Dresden. 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
Well, as there is no television here, unfortunately 24I cannot show the film. So I am going to move on. Page 25503. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: How would that help to say whether it was

. P-194

1Dresden or Prague? 2A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Because it is a misrepresentation by Mr Irving. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: No. How would a television film, Mr Irving, 4help show whether wa Prague or Dresden? 5MR IRVING: Survivors from the Dresden air raid describing to 6American television cameras how these American planes came 7up and down the meadows of the river, machine gunning the 8people on the banks. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: I see. That has nothing to do with your 10interviews of airmen. 11MR IRVING: I also have interviews with airmen, but it is not a 12point to which I attach much weight as, for example, the 13death roll in Dresden which I think the court is probably 14more interested in. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: I thought that was the real issue. 16MR IRVING: Yes. In that case we will go straight to page 508 17which takes us to the death roll in Dresden. Now the 18allegation, if I may summarize it to the witness, is as 19follows. I have given death figures ranging between 2035,000 as the low limit and 250,000 as the high limit and 21a probable figure of 135,000. Is that correct? 22A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Roughly speaking, yes. 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes,. And you think that this was a perverse thing to 24do, on the basis of the evidence before me at the time the 25I wrote on each occasion? 26A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, that is right. That is to say ti depends as much on

. P-195

1how you do it as on the fact that you do it. 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
Would you first of all to document number 10 in the little 3bundle? 4A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Page 10. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
Page 10, yes. Is this a book issued or pages from a book 6issued by the Press and Information Office of the German 7Federal Republic, evidently in the 1950s? 8A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
And does it have an ---- 10A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
The late to mid-50s. 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
--- introduction by the Federal Chancellor Dr Conrad 12Ardenhau? 13A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It does. 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
And page 11 shows his signature on the introduction? 15A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 16Q.
[Mr Irving]
If you now go to page 13, does footnote No. 2 say: The 17attack on the city on Dresden which was filled with 18refugees on 13th February 1945 alone cost about 250,000 19dead? 20A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, I cannot find this. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have not got that. 22A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That is page 12? 23MR IRVING: It is page 12 or the paginated number is 154 and it 24is footnote No. 2. 25A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
So, prima facie, or on the face of it we have a German

. P-196

1government book with authority of the Chancellor himself 2alleging that the city of Dresden was filled with refugees 3and that there were 250,000 dead? 4A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. This is Dr. Goebbels' figure of course which he put 5out in propaganda, knowing full well it was not true and 6was taken over. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
There is a distinction between Dr Ardenhau and 8Dr Goebbels, is there not? 9A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, clearly whoever did this has taken that on trust. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is that what you relied on, Mr Irving? Is 11that your case? That is where the figure of 250,000 came 12from? 13MR IRVING: My Lord, your Lordship surely does not accept that 14that is the only source I would have used. 15MR JUSTICE GRAY: No. 16MR IRVING: I am talking about the upper end of the scale. 17MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am asking what your source for the figure 18you at one time were ---- 19MR IRVING: There were very many figures for 250,000. 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- favouring as 250,000. Are you saying 21that this was at least one of the sources or not? 22MR IRVING: One of the sources. I will now draw your 23Lordship's attention to a document that the Defendants 24have not been able to find, and it is in the 25interrogations of two doctors Fersage and Heard, page 41. 26A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I think what I am saying about the Ardenhau figure, my

. P-197

1Lord, is that this is I think simply taken over from the 2Nazi propaganda ministry. There does not seem to have 3been -- it is only in a footnote. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: How would ---- 5A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It does not seem to rest on any very elaborate 6investigation. 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: No. How would Mr Irving have known that it 8was just taken from Goebbels? 9A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I did not know that he relied on this. 10Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
No, well, he says he did. 11A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It is fairly obvious that 250,000 is the figure that 12Dr Goebbels gave. 13Q.
[Mr Justice Gray]
Simply because he gave it? 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. That is where it appears. This is relatively 15shortly afterwards. 16MR IRVING: Was not the figure that Dr Goebbels gave 102,040? 17A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, I do not think it was. Well, he used the figure -- 182040 was the figure in Tages Befehl, daily order 47. 19I think Goebbels blew this to up 250,000. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
Would you now look at the document 41 in my little bundle, 21please. This is the integration of the two doctors, 22Versage and Heard. Dr Versage was formerlly a medical 23officer and Dr Heard was a woman physician. 24A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 25Q.
[Mr Irving]
Information on bombing casualties: According to the 26informants the total number of casualties in Germany due

. P-198

1to bombing has been estimated between 3 and 4 million. 2That is an exaggeration, is it not? 3A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It looks like it, yes. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
Do they continue: The most badly damaged town, in their 5opinion, is Dresden with an estimated casualty list of 6250,000? Is that the same figure now? 7A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That is another exaggeration, as you would expect from 8their previous estimate of 3 to 4 million. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
But it does not actually say in this report that is an 10exaggeration, does it? 11A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, it does not say that 3 to 4 million is an 12exaggeration. 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
But it does state it as a fact that the estimated casualty 14list in Dresden was 250,000? 15A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, it does not state as a fact. It says it is in their 16opinion. So it is a matter of opinion. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
The opinion is that was the most badly damaged town, that 18was the opinion; not that the opinion was the death roll? 19A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. Again that is mere hearsay. There is no documentary 20evidence they provide there. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
As a minor matter they also say that the city was filled 22with refugees? 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That is right, yes. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
So that is two documents that give this upper limit 25figure? 26A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, they are not, well, they are not. I mean they are not

. P-199

1contemporary documents. Neither of them is a contemporary 2document. This one is a mere matter of opinion by two 3physicians. It does not even say where they are from. It 4does not look to me as if they are actually Dresden 5doctors at all. There is no evidence here that they were 6even in Dresden. There is no documentary evidence as to 7the basis of the rather kind of casual footnote in the 8Ardenhau documents. So neither of these is really worth 9very much at all. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
While we are still looking at the 250,000 figure, you do 11accept of course that I have never, ever said that it was 12250,000? I have said this was the upper limit that was 13given, is that correct? 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: Has anyone got the Corgi edition of 15destruction of Dresden. 16MR RAMPTON: No. I think we only have the most modern version 17which is I forget ---- 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor Evans obviously had it at one time. 19MR RAMPTON: Yes, obviously, and so did his researchers, but 20I cannot say where it is at the moment. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: We have probably got the relevant bit. What 22we want is page 225. 23MR IRVING: Of the Corgi edition. 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. 25MR RAMPTON: It is in L1, tab 3. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: Plus perhaps the footnote.

. P-200

1MR RAMPTON: Page. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: 225. 3MR RAMPTON: That is the 1966 edition. 4MR IRVING: You agree that all of these figures show I am just 5saying that the upper him limit or the maximum was 6250,000? 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: He is just having a look to remind himself. 8A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can you read out the bit which refers to the 10250,000? 11A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
"Immediately after the war for sound political reasons, 12the Russia occupation authorities broached an announcement 13that the raids on Dresden had cost the lives of only 1435,000 people, and the first postwar Lord Mayor of Dresden 15supported them. In fact the documentation suggests very 16strongly that the figure was certainly between a minimum 17of 100,000 and a maximum 250,000. Hans Voight himself 18estimated the final number would have been 135,000, but it 19now appears that there were other officers working 20parallel to his. On the registration of the victims, for 21example, a police unit with an office just behind ... all 22the evidence is that the figure was actually very much 23higher." Then there are further estimates of 120, 150, 24180, 220, 140, 202,040 and Goebbels' figure of 250,000. 25MR IRVING: Do you accept that some of those figures are taken 26dust jacket or blurb material which the author does not

. P-201

1write? 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: This is from the text. 3A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
This is in the text. I have just read the text of this. 4MR IRVING: I am just looking at the quotations page 510 of the 5expert report. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: But we are looking at the Corgi edition. 7A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 8MR IRVING: I have another five or ten more minutes of 9cross-examination, but I want to make sure that Mr Rampton 10has enough time for his re-examination. 11MR RAMPTON: Yes, I will have plenty of time. 12MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do not worry about that, because the 13important thing is that you have put everything you want 14to put, Mr Irving. That is the priority. 15MR IRVING: I do not think I will be able to put everything 16I want to put, but I am keeping it within bounds. Page 17508, please. Now you say: "Irving has intimated", this 18is paragraph 1halfway down, "that he will contest in 19court that estimates of", well, that I will maintain in 20court that estimates of the casualties vary between 35,000 21and 250,000? 22A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
Do agree that General Kurt Maynart, the City Commandant of 24Dresden, and that Professor Fetcher, the head of Civil Air 25Defence in Dresden, would have been in a position to 26estimate the final death roll accurately from their

. P-202

1positions respectively? 2A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Not necessarily. We will have to look at it in a bit more 3detail. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
Well, just off the top of your head, if somebody is the 5City Commandant or if somebody is the head of Civil Air 6Defence, do you agree that on the face of it they are 7likely to be in a good position to know what the final 8death figure is likely to be? 9A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
One has to know where they were and what they were doing 10at this time. 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
Where they were, one was City Commandant and one was Head 12of Air Defence, Civil Air Defence? 13A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Let us accept that for the moment and let you get on to 14the next question. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
Well, the next question ---- 16A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Accept that they might have been in a good position to 17know. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
My Lord, at page 19 of the little bundle I have inserted 19fresh copies of the Funfack letters. They have not 20changed at all from the translations I provided before, 21but just for the ease of this particular operation. 22Professor Evans, you are familiar with the correspondence 23that I had with a medical officer or a doctor called Max 24Funfack in Dresden? 25A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
You began quoting one letter he wrote me and then you

. P-203

1stopped at a certain point, did you not? 2A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Where is this? 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
On page 520. 4A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
You quoted the letter he wrote to me dated January 19th, 6which ends: "Therefore, I can give no firm information 7about the figure of the dead but only repeat what was 8reported to me"? 9A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
Then rather oddly you tell us what it was? 11A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That comes several pages later. One has to ---- 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
It is an odd place to break though, was it not? 13A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It comes on page 533 where I quote that last sentence and 14then go on, because that was necessary. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
The City Commandant, General Maynart, spoke on about 22nd 16February 1945 of 140,000 dead. 17A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That is right. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
That is the City Commandant? 19A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
How does 140,000 tally with the 135,000 figure that 21I wrote in my book? Is it more or less or about the same? 22A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
You know that. You do not have to ask me. 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
You are an expert and I thought I would ask you for an 24expert opinion? 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: You do not need to be an expert to see 26whether one figure is the same as another.

. P-204

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
Professor Fetcher of the Civil Air Defence spoke of 2180,000? 3A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
But of course he then continues to say: "I have never 5seen written evidence for this"? 6A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That is right. He advises you to get in touch with him. 7You could not with Fetcher of course but with Maynart. 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
As you know, of course, I had met a man called Hans Voight 9who had represented to me, and no doubt accurately, that 10he was the head of the missing persons bureau in Dresden, 11and that he had undertaken identification work on the 12bodies for weeks afterwards? 13A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That is right. 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
And that he thought the good figure, in his estimate, 15would finally reach, the death figure would finally reach 16135,000? 17A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, that is somewhat disingenuous, the way you put it. 18He says that he had been able to clear up the identity of 1940,000 of the deed. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
But did he estimate the final figure what it was likely to 21be? 22A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, he told you that he estimated it as 135,000, but 23I do not think he is a particularly reliable witness here. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
But you like Walter Weidauer, do you not, who is the Mayor 25of Dresden, this Communist Mayor who tore the heart out of 26Dresden and tore the palaces down and all the churches

. P-205

1and turned it into a socialist jewel? 2A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I thought it was the British who destroyed the palaces. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
No. The main parts were left and the central opera and 4all the rest were there waiting to be rebuilt? 5A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Which they have been of course, starting with the 6Communists who began rebuilding them. I do not think the 7fact that someone is a communist totally disqualifies what 8he has to say. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
Does the fact that Walter Weidauer on page 515of your 10report described Hans Voight as being a virulent fascist, 11does that qualify what he has to say? 12A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It does seem that Voight was actually thrown out of the 13GDR as a neo-faschist or a fascist. I would put more 14credence in Voight's statement that the indices they had 15drawn up of the dead reached the number of 40,000. That 16seems to me to be more reliable than his then further 17rather wild estimates of 135. He has no source at all for 18the 135, whereas for his 40,000 he does. Of course when 19Voight says that the Russians closed down his office and 20struck off the first digit to arrive at their number of 2135, I think that is just expressing Voight's resentment at 22his treatment by the Russians and the East Germans. 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
Have you any evidence at all for this so-called treatment 24and so-called throwing out of East Germany? Did the East 25Germans normally throw people out of their country or did 26they in fact build a wall and barbed wire minefields to

. P-206

1stop people leaving? 2A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That was in 1961. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
But you have no evidence at all for this alleged throwing 4out of Voight? 5A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I am trying to find it. Well, it is Weidauer's 6description of him. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
The one who calls him a virulent fascist? 8A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
Do you call people fascist in your time? 10A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No actually, not unless I really thought they were. I do 11not use it as a general term of abuse. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
At page 518 you use other words like ecstatic and mounting 13excitement and breathlessly to describe the way that 14I went about my research, is that right, frantic 15marketing? 16A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It appears to be, yes, particularly to the Provost of 17Coventry Cathedral. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
On page 520 now, from the first sentence of the letter 19dated January 19th, which you omit, is it not plain that 20I did contact the Funfacks? 21A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Point me to this, please. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
You said that I made no attempt to contact the Funfacks. 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Where is this? 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
Page 520. You have quoted part of that letter, but in 25fact you have missed out the first sentence. 26A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
28th February, let us have a look.

. P-207

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
He writes to me and the first sentence is: "You were so 2exceedingly kind as to send my wife a copy of your book 3about the destruction of Dresden. The book has arrived 4safely and we thank you very much." 5A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, so this is a letter from -- you had sent him the 6book, yes. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 8A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
But then you had not actually ---- 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
Why would I send Funfack a book if not to contact him? 10A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That is not really what I mean. 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is not it true that with 20-20 hindsight that we all now 12have, thank God, although in some of us our eyesight is 13failing, we can perceive where figures are accurate and 14figures are not accurate? 15A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Let me just deal with the previous point. You sent him a 16book which is fine, but the point is that you do not, you 17describe him in the book and he is replying to you here 18really in relation to the book which you sent to him, you 19are describing him as Dresden's Chief Medical Officer or 20Deputy Chief Medical Officer, whereas he says he was not; 21he was just a specialist in neurology. He says: "I have 22only ever heard the numbers third hand", and you describe 23him as being a kind of first-hand source. So he has a 24number of objections in the letter to what you say in the 25book. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
That is not the point.

. P-208

1A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
What I say here is on your rely to Funfack you had not in 2fact tried to contact Funfack to establish whether these 3things were true or not before you wrote the book. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
That is not what you write though, is it? In paragraph 5, 5page 520, you say: "From his reply on 28th February to 6Funfack's letter, it is clear that Irving had in fact made 7no effort whatsoever to contact Funfack"? 8A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, it is quite clear what that means from the context of 9the previous quotation and description. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: It depends what you mean by "had". 11MR IRVING: Yes. Do you agree that Dr Funfack living, as he 12did, behind Iron Curtain in one of the most Stalinist of 13the Eastern European states, Eastern Germany, had every 14good reason to be apprehensive when he was contacted by 15somebody living in the West and sending him presents and 16gifts and visiting him, and this is very evident indeed 17from the reference he makes in the letters to me about how 18he is doing everything now through the authorities, and 19that he had exceedingly unpleasant visits from members of 20the Ideological Committee of the City Commission and 21things like that? Is it not quite plain that the 22situation of terror they were living in? 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
He is actually suggesting that you contact the 24authorities; not that you contact him through the 25authorities but that you contact the authorities with 26reference to getting further work. I do believe you

. P-209

1yourself visited East Germany and visited Dresden under 2the Communist regime. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
Did you, Professor, every have any contact yourself with 4Soviet citizens or citizens living in the Soviet zone of 5Germany at that time or thereabouts? 6A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Not in 1965 when I was schoolboy, but certainly under the 7GDR, yes, I was visitor on a number of occasions. 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
It was a police state, was it not? 9A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
You may describe it as such, yes, it is true. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
Well, did they have an organization known as the Stazi? 11A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Indeed, yes. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
Did they have large numbers of political prisoners in 13their jails? 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Substantial numbers, yes, that is true. 15Q.
[Mr Irving]
So that somebody receiving letters from Western Germany or 16from England was, in fact he mentions in one of his 17letters that it had a stamp on the outside and this kind 18of thing; in other words, he is living in a state of ---- 19A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
May I just --- 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
--- genteel terror, if I can put it like that? 21A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
There is no doubt that correspondence was monitored by the 22Stazi. 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
So this is one very good reason that he would have for 24denying that he had been anything at all in the Third 25Reich, is it not? 26A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Not really, no. I do not think there is any shame in

. P-210

1being a medical officer in Dresden in the Third Reich. It 2is not as if he was us a Obersturmbannfuhrer in the SS or 3the concentration camp. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
Did you not read that inference into his second letter 5where he explains the reason why he is wearing his uniform 6in the photograph? You remember the famous photographs of 7the mass relations and there he is in his uniform and he 8takes great pains in his letter to me to explain that that 9is the one occasion he wore the uniform because otherwise 10he could not have got through the police cordons? Does 11not that kind of thing in a letter written from East 12Germany tell you anything? 13A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It does not cast doubt on what he says, that he was never 14the chief medical officer and that his knowledge was only 15third hand. 16Q.
[Mr Irving]
His knowledge is direct from Klaus Maynart, is it not, the 17City Commandant, and from the Chief of the Civil Air 18Defence who stated their estimates to him and repeatedly 19said afterwards: "We cannot believe these low figures we 20are hearing about now." They expressed their astonishment 21to him, did they not? 22A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, many people did, but there is no documentary evidence 23there. The document we are dealing with is a forgery 24which you knew to be a forgery and yet you present it to 25the Provost of Coventry as genuine. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
When a writer is carrying out research on a subject like

. P-211

1this and he establishes contact under difficult conditions 2with sources as close to the facts as these sources 3purport it or appear to be, is not perfectly proper and 4the opposite of perverse for that writer to use the facts 5and figures that he gives to them? 6A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I am sorry, I did not quite follow that question. It was 7a bit convoluted. 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
It is getting a bit late. We will move on. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are you talking about Funfack's own figures 10or the figures he gives from ---- 11MR IRVING: Yes, precisely, the statements, the figure given to 12him, the quality of the source. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Given to him by Maynart? 14MR IRVING: Yes. It tallies closely with the figures given by 15Voight at that time? 16A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It is just gossip and rumour. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
Page 544, paragraph 2 line 2, you refer to a letter to me 18from a man called Sperling. Was Sperling an official of 19the Federal German Statistical office? 20A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is that the German Government Ministry which is 22responsible for keeping all census and statistical figures 23relating to Germany? 24A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That is the West German office, yes, at that time. 25Indeed. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
Did he write a letter in which he stated that immediately

. P-212

1after the attack on Dresden the number of dead was 2estimated by local authorities at 180,000 to 200,000? 3Never mind about whether the figure is right or not, but 4did he write that to me? 5A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Is this in discovery? 6Q.
[Mr Irving]
It is on page -- you quote it on paragraph 544, your 7paragraph 2. 8A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. I am not sure I have seen this letter. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
Well, where else did you get it from? 10A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
This is quoting your version of it. 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
On microfilm which was in the discovery. It is over the 12page, the footnote 151. 13A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 14Q.
[Mr Irving]
He wrote that letter to me before the book was published, 15April 25th 1962? 16A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
Information of that quality from that German Government 18source, would you describe it as perverse for a historian 19a writer to use that figure? 20A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Let us have a look at exactly what this says. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Who was Sperling? 22A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
He is an official of the Federal Ministry of Statistics. 23MR IRVING: Statistics in Germany which keeps figures like 24this. 25A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
In West Germany in the mid-1960s. The figures that 26Mr Irving quotes in his very various works as having been

. P-213

1given by Sperling seem to vary from one edition of the 2book to another one: 180 to 20,000 in one, 120 to 150 in 3another and then 120 to 150 again and then up to half a 4million. 5Q.
[Mr Irving]
He quotes both those sets of figures, does he not, in his 6letter, is that right? 7A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Can we have a look at the letter? 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Where is the letter? Can we dig it out? 9MR IRVING: He quotes the letter actually in the book, in his 10report. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: 147, note 147. 12A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, my Lord, I do not think it is. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is that wrong? 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
544. 15MR IRVING: Page 544, paragraph 2. Unless they misquoted the 16passage from the letter, that is the actual quotation in 17quotation marks which gives both sets of figures. 18A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, to the microfilm. 19MR IRVING: My Lord, I only have two more questions now and 20then I am through. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: I would quite like to find Dr Sperling's 22letter. 23MR RAMPTON: If your Lordship would like to see the document. 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you have it available. 25MR RAMPTON: It is page 15 of whatever this thing is that 26I have here, tab 3 of L1. It is first of all in German.

. P-214

1It is on pages 15 and 16 it is in German, and on pages 17 2and 18 it is in English. I am afraid I cannot read either 3of them. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: L1 tab 1? 5MR RAMPTON: Tab 3 of page 15. The Professor has not got it. 6MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is this from Goring? 7MR RAMPTON: No. 8MR JUSTICE GRAY: L1 tab 3. 9MR RAMPTON: Yes. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Pages 17 and 18. 11A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It is the blue numbers. 12MR RAMPTON: The blue numbers on the bottom right-hand corner. 13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Goring at the top of the page. 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I still do not have this. 15MR RAMPTON: It is tab 2. 16MR IRVING: My Lord, the translation appears to be on the 17second and fourth pages. 18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, page 18. It almost completely is 19illegible. 20MR IRVING: I have put a bracket in the margin next to the 21paragraph I quoted and relied upon. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is more literal in the German. 23MR IRVING: It is exactly the same as is quoted in the expert 24report. 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, what does the last sentence in 26that paragraph say?

. P-215

1MR IRVING: On the expert report? 2MR RAMPTON: No, in the letter. 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Dr Sperling's letter. 4MR IRVING: My Lord, as a result of the shock, the offices ---- 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think Dr Sperling comes up with a figure of 660,000. 7MR IRVING: Yes. 8A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, but you say that it is 120 to 150, Mr Irving. 9MR IRVING: "After weighing all democratic factors and 10technical numeral inferences, most probability is attached 11to a figure of 60,000 losses", yes. In West Germany at 12that time the tendency was throughout to quote low figures 13for air raids by the Allies, by the British on German 14cities. This was a very, very clear tendency which 15existed from the end of the war onwards. If I can draw 16one very simple parallel here. When I visited Dresden in 171990 on February 13th to my astonishment the whole of the 18city centre was turned into a huge funeral procession with 19millions of candles descending on the city centre in 20commemoration of the air raid. Something like that never, 21ever happened in Western German. In Western German the 22effect of Allied air raids on the cities was played down 23for reasons of greater politics. 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: So the government statistician is giving a 25politically correct figure? 26MR IRVING: My impression on the reason why he said, "We are

. P-216

1inclined to play it down to 60,000", I weighted that in a 2manner which arose from the fact that I was familiar with 3the West German tendency to minimalize air raid 4casualties? 5A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I am sorry, he did not say "we are inclined to play it 6down" or weighting it. He said: "After weighing up all 7demographic factors and technical numeral inferences most 8probability is attached to a figure of 60,000 losses", 9which we know to be a very considerable exaggeration, 10since the generally accepted agreed documented figure is 11around 25,000 to 35,000. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
Is 60,000 still within my bracket, if I can put it like 13that, of 35,000 to 250,000? 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That bracket, but of course in many places you say it is 15between 100,000 and 250,000, in many editions of the book. 16Q.
[Mr Irving]
The final matter I want to deal with before turning you 17over to Mr Rampton again with many thanks, is the 18allegation that I sat on the information of the real 19figures for six or seven weeks before turning them over in 20the famous letter to The Times? 21A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Where is this? 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
This is page 546 or thereabouts. 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not sure that is the right reference. 24MR IRVING: Unless your Lordship has a better one? 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think there must be a better one. 26A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
This is Schlussmeldung.

. P-217

1MR IRVING: I if I can summarize in two lines again what 2happened. Simultaneously the West German authorities and 3the East German authorities provided me with high quality 4documents, giving very specific figures, and the question 5is: When did I receive these documents and when did 6I make use of them? 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I remember the point, but I do not think 8that is where it is dealt with i Professor Evans' 9report. 10A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
547. 11MR IRVING: Paragraph 3: "Simultaneously on 13th May the West 12German archivist, Dr Brobart, drew my attention to the 13discovery of a document that confirmed the authenticity of 14the final report." 15A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 16Q.
[Mr Irving]
Right? 17A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
This gives a figure of predicted current death roll of 1818,375, predicted figure, death roll of 25,000 and a 19figure of 35,000 missing. 20Q.
[Mr Irving]
Yes. 21MR JUSTICE GRAY: And the criticism is he top of 549. 22MR IRVING: It gets very critical indeed on paragraph 7 on 23548: "Irving was forced to make a humiliating climb 24down". 25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. That is not a criticism. 26MR IRVING: The word "humiliating" seems slightly critical, my

. P-218

1Lord. The allegation also that I disclosed none of my 2correspondence with Corgi. But I am probably not going to 3deal with that. I am just going to deal with the 4allegation that I sat on things for weeks. 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: Put your question about that. 6MR IRVING: Professor Evans, when were the two documents on the 7basis of your expert report, the East German version and 8the West German version, mailed to he me? 9A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
13th May and you replied on 16th May. 10Q.
[Mr Irving]
Which document are you referring to? 11A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
The Dresden city archivist informed you of the existence 12of the authentic final report of the Dresden authorities, 13the police authorities, on the death roll on 5th April 141966, and you replied that you continued to believe in the 15authority of the daily command signed by Grosse which gave 16a figure of 200,000. 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can I halt you there for a moment and ask, did they 18actually send the document to me or did they just say: 19"We have found a document"? 20A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Then they sent a document to you on 27th May asking for 21your opinion. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
27th May. 23A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
And the West Germans sent you a copy on 13th May. So you 24had a copy in your hands by the time you replied to the 25West German authorities on 16th May. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
So what did the West German send to me on May 13th, a

. P-219

1letter saying: "We have found a document" or did they send 2the document? 3A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It confirms discovery, yes, they had ---- 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
You appreciate the difference? 5A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. I appreciate the difference. Yes. Giving a full 6account of what was in the document. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
What do you mean by a "full account"? 8A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, I summarize it on paragraph 3 in page 547. It seems 9pretty full to me with the figures. 10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Everybody knew what the Tagesbefehl was and 11there are they saying that actually it says 35,000? 12A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
The final situation report, it says 25. 13MR IRVING: So what do you say was in the letter from the West 14German archivists, the first one 13th May? He drew my 15attention to the discovery of a document, is that correct? 16A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That is right. Then it goes on to summarise a letter in 17the rest of that paragraph. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
I wrote back saying: "Please send me a copy of the 19report", is that right? 20A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, and saying that you would give the facts on 16th May, 21saying you realized the implications of the document and 22you were going to give the facts fullest prominence in 23England and Germany to counter what you now said was the 24false impression given by the Tagesbefehl 47 which you 25had said only a few weeks previously to the East Germans 26you continued to believe in. "We have to delay

. P-220

1announcement by about a month", you said, "on diplomatic 2grounds" as the new edition of your book had appeared only 314 days earlier. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
Now, when did I receive the two reports, the one from East 5Germany and the one from West Germany? 6A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Well, you were aware of their contents by the time you 7wrote back ---- 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
Can you answer the question? 9A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
--- on 16th May to the West German archives saying that 10you were going to give the new figures their fullest 11prominence. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
Should I have just done that on the basis of that letter 13or should I have asked to see the report first? 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
You clearly thought you were going to and you say you are 15going to just delay the announcement by a month -- six 16weeks is what you ---- 17Q.
[Mr Irving]
Did I do the right thing which any normal historian would 18do which is to say, "Please", as you have been doing for 19the last eight days, "show me the document"? 20A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, you did not. You said you fully accepted it and you 21were going to give the facts the fullest prominence in 22England and Germany to counter the false impression given 23by the earlier report. 24Q.
[Mr Irving]
And did I not say, "Please send me a copy of the 25document"? 26A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Or "Show me a copy of the letter". It does not make any

. P-221

1difference to the fact you said you were going to give it 2prominence without actually having seen the document. 3Q.
[Mr Irving]
If the Germans then sent me a copy of the document, can 4you take it that I asked them to supply me with a copy of 5the document? 6A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That does not alter the fact, Mr Irving, that you said you 7were going to publicise the new, much smaller figures 8without having seeing the document. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: I wonder about this, Professor Evans. It 10seems it me, in the overall scale of things, six weeks 11does not seem a desperately long time, and then the 12announcement was made, as Mr Irving says, in a rather 13unusual way by means of a letter to The Times? 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, it is not a major criticism, my Lord, at all. 15MR IRVING: My Lord, it gets better, it gets better. (To the 16witness): Can I ask you to turn to pages 44 and 45 of the 17bundle, please? First of all, will you accept that I left 18the United Kingdom on May 31st for a research trip on my 19new book in the United States on May 31st 1966? 20A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. That is after you had written to the West German 21archives saying that you fully realized the implications 22of the document and were intending to give the facts the 23fullest prominence in England and Germany to counter the 24false impression given by the inflated and forged figures 25that you had previously relied on. 26Q.
[Mr Irving]
As soon as I saw the document, that is obvious, is it not?

. P-222

1A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No. 2Q.
[Mr Irving]
How could I do this without ---- 3A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
You said you were going to do it. 4Q.
[Mr Irving]
How could I do this without seeing the document? 5A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That is what you said. You said you were going to give 6it. I am quoting your letter. 7Q.
[Mr Irving]
Page 44 of the bundle which is from my diaries. I always 8knew these diaries would help me. June 16th 1966. An 9appendix glued in on that page says: "Letters waiting for 10me on my return from the United States", right? 11A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 12Q.
[Mr Irving]
Apparently, I only had 23 letters. I get 170 a day now. 13Does it say No. 22 and No. 23, the first one, a letter 14from the Dresden City archives enclosing a photostat of a 15document, and is the document described there the final 16report? 17A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 18Q.
[Mr Irving]
No. 23, does it say: Letter from the German Federal 19Archives, Koblenz, enclosing a photostat of the document, 20the chief of the Ordnungs, Berlin? 21A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 22Q.
[Mr Irving]
Does that therefore satisfy you that I did not receive 23either of the two reports until June 16th 1966 when, by 24coincidence they both came to me in the same post? 25A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 26MR JUSTICE GRAY: But you had already written to The Times.

. P-223

1MR IRVING: No, sir. 2A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
He had already written to the West Germans, saying that he 3was going to give the new figures prominence. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sorry, I thought both these pages were 5for the same date. I see the next one is the 30th June. 6MR IRVING: The next page is 30th June 1966. Is this a page 7from my telephone log? 8A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 9Q.
[Mr Irving]
Does it show me telephoning the correspondence editor of 10The Times telephoning me at 5.45 p.m. to discuss the 11letter that they have now received from me? 12A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. This is all fine. 13Q.
[Mr Irving]
Would you consider that is a very serious delay between 14June 16th, after arriving from the United States? 15A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I do not think I say it is a serious delay, anyway, do I? 16Q.
[Mr Irving]
You said it was a six week ---- 17A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. I say that in your letter on 16th May to the West 18German Archives you say you are going to have to delay 19your announcement that you accepted the new figure of 2035,000 dead by about a month, and you wait six weeks. It 21is not a major criticism at all. It is simply just 22recounting the facts. 23Q.
[Mr Irving]
Do you not make a major criticism of the fact that for six 24weeks apparently I did nothing and pondered what to do, on 25your chronology? 26A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No.

. P-224

1Q.
[Mr Irving]
And that your chronology was wrong? 2A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No. It really it is not desperately important. The 3important thing is, Mr Irving, having accepted these new 4figures of 35,000, you then went back on them subsequently 5and reprinted the phoney targets of Filzeem and Fierzig 6and put your figures back up 100,000 to quarter of a 7million. 8Q.
[Mr Irving]
You accept your chronology was wrong, is that correct? 9A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, I do not. I do not really see why we are discussing 10this. 11Q.
[Mr Irving]
You accept that I did not get the reports until June 16th 12and that I had my letter published by The Times already on 13July 6th? 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
You said that from the 16th May, when you were told the 15West Germans that you were going to announce your 16acceptance of the lower figures, you waited six weeks to 17give them, but I do not regard that, to repeat myself, as 18a major criticism. I am simply trying to say what 19happened. I am trying to give an account of how you deal 20with these matters. That is all. 21Q.
[Mr Irving]
Thank you very much, Professor Evans. I have no further 22questions. 23MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well done, Mr Irving. You have completed 24your cross-examination as you said you would. That does 25raise a question of what we do about re-examination. 26MR RAMPTON: It is really not going to be all that long.

. P-225

1MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not really want you to, if I may say so, 2rush it. 3MR RAMPTON: I have only got four things I want to ask. 4MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is that really all you are intending to ask? 5MR RAMPTON: Yes. One of the things, I will tell your Lordship 6now, I need not do in re-examination, because it is only, 7as it often is in re-examination, a way of getting your 8Lordship to look at some stuff which Mr Irving skipped 9over in cross-examination. I will tell your Lordship what 10it is. I am going to hand in a clip of documents taken 11from the files. There was an argument about whether or 12not Mr Irving was right to have accused the Allies of 13inventing the gas chambers by way of propaganda. There is 14very good evidence in the files that even by 1942 they had 15information that it was going to happen or was happening. 16I will just hand in the clip of documents, so it means 17that I do not have to ask about it. The first part of the 18clip relates to 1942 and the second part to 1943. 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: Where am I going to put this? 20MR RAMPTON: Ah! 21MS ROGERS: In accordance with the rationalisation of your 22Lordship's files that your clerk very kindly helped with 23---- 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: "Rationalization" is not a word I would use. 25MS ROGERS: An attempt then, my Lord, on Friday with your 26clerk, you should have a file L1, I hope, and tab 6 may be

. P-226

1empty. 2MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is. 3MS ROGERS: If it is, I suggest it goes there and it will be 4entered in the index accordingly. 5MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton, I will be taken through this at 6some stage, will I? 7MR RAMPTON: Yes. We will show your Lordship exactly what it 8says. They are in effect reports. One comes through 9Geneva in 1942 from a man called Riegner through the 10Jewish Congress, whatever it is, in Geneva. 11MR JUSTICE GRAY: I remember that. 12MR RAMPTON: There is another one that comes direct from Poland 13in 1943. It is merely to deal with the question whether 14the Brits invented the allegation. Plainly they did not. 15The question whether they used it or not is really beside 16the point. 17I would like go to Reichskristallnacht, if 18I may, Professor Evans, very briefly. It is a file called 19L2, and I am in tab 1, I think. I need to start at page 209, which I think should be what Mr Irving calls the Hess 21message of 2.56 on the morning of 10th November 1938. 22A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
The bottom right hand corner. If you want the passage in 24your report, it is page 270 of the report. 25A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Thank you. That is what I was trying to find. 26Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You should not need that, I do not think. I hope not.

. P-227

1You remember there was an argument between you and 2Mr Irving about the meaning of this document? 3A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
He contending not only that "gescheften" meant something 5more than "shops", but the words "oder degleichen" should 6be attached to the word "ranleg gungen". You remember 7that? 8A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, that is right. 9Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You contend on the other hand that it means no more 10burning of shops, or the like? 11A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Exactly. 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Arson against shops. Can you then turn to tab 2 in this 13file? 14A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 15Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Which is the Nazi court report of 13th February 1939. 16A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Reproduced I think as a Nuremberg document, is it not? 18A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That is, yes. 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Would you please turn to the third page where there seems 20to be a record of messages sent during the night, the 21Reichskristallnacht? 22A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Would you look at the third entry on that page? 24A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Indeed, yes. 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Which is page 3, and tell us what it means? First of all, 26give the time.

. P-228

1A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
This is a list -- well, the top says: "On 10th of 11th 21938 there went out". 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. 4A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
And it comes down to this here a list, "2.56 a.m., the 5circular of the staff of the deputy of the Fuhrer". 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
That is Hess? 7A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That is Hess, "that, which forbids arson on Jewish shops". 8Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Thank you. The words "Oder degleichen" seem to have been 9omitted. Do you have a possible explanation and a 10speculative explanation, as an historian, why the Nazi 11Party court should not have bothered about those words? 12A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. Obviously, this is an abbreviated list with 13abbreviated titles, and they did not think it was 14important to put that on. It is quite clear what its 15central thrust of this telegram. 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
The reason why you said that it was confined in that way 17to shops and the like and to arson was that there was a 18fear that the German property would be injured by a fire 19started ---- 20A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Indeed. 21Q.
[Mr Rampton]
--- damage by a fire started in a Jewish shop? 22A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
And you said that reflected what Heydrich had said at 1.20 24the same morning? 25A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 26Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Can I take you back to that then which is pages 4 and 5?

. P-229

1Here we better look at your report? 2A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Of tab? 3Q.
[Mr Rampton]
4 and 5 of tab 1. 4A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Tab 1. 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
That is for the German. We will look at the English 6because it will be much quicker which is in your report at 7page 263. What I suggest you do is put the two together. 8That is what I am going to do. 9A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It is the second page -- no, it is not, it is the first 11page of the German, I think -- second page, page 5. This 12is Heydrich's telegram or telex of 1.20 a.m. 13A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
On the same morning of 10th November 1938. 15A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Can you just on the left-hand column of the German there 17are four (a), (b), (c), (d), yes? 18A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Is that what you have translated at the top of page 263 of 20your report? 21A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That is indeed so. Yes. 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
If we just read it (a), it says: "Only such measures may 23be taken as do not involve any endangering of German life 24or property (e.g. Synagogue fires only if there is no 25danger of the fire spreading to the surrounding 26buildings)", and so on and so forth?

. P-230

1A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Can we then just look because Mr Irving, I think ---- 3MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not sure I have the point on that. How 4does that help us to Heydrich's view about German 5owned ---- 6MR RAMPTON: What Professor Evans said in ---- 7MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- shops not to be set on fire? 8MR RAMPTON: I am sorry. 9MR JUSTICE GRAY: I just wondered how that cast any light on 10the 2.56 message. 11MR RAMPTON: Because that also is a prohibition against the 12setting fire. It does not say any other kind of damage. 13The setting fire to Jewish shops. 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I see. 15MR RAMPTON: This is synagogues: "synagogue fires only if 16there is no danger of the fire spreading to the 17surrounding buildings". Perhaps, my Lord, what one can -- 18I should not really give evidence, but it is an argument 19rather than evidence -- assume is that since Heydrich had 20spoken of synagogue fires at 1.20, Opdenhoff, Hess's man, 21need only speak of shops at 2.56. 22MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I see. 23MR RAMPTON: I do not know. The key word is obviously the 24"arson" word. (To the witness): If you would just 25glance at those four headings, Professor Evans ---- 26A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes.

. P-231

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
--- in the Heydrich telex and then please turn finally on 2this topic to page 276 of Mr Irving's Goebbels book? 3A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
At the bottom of the page we see this: "What of Himmler 5and Hitler? Both were totally unaware of what Goebbels 6had done until the synagogue next to Munich's Four Seasons 7Hotel set on fire around 1 a.m. Heydrich, Himmler's 8national chief of police, was relaxing down in the hotel 9bar; he hurried up to Himmler's room, then telexed 10instructions to all police authorities to restore law and 11order, protect Jews and Jewish property, and halt any 12ongoing incidents". I ask you this. Does that seem to 13you a fair and accurate reproduction of the substance of 14Heydrich's telex at 1.20 a.m.? 15A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, it does not, Mr Rampton. 16Q.
[Mr Rampton]
If you look over the page, you will see that the footnote 17reference for 43 and I think it is on page 613 ---- 18A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
613, I have it. 19Q.
[Mr Rampton]
It must be a wrong reference. 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, it is. 21MR RAMPTON: It is a wrong reference. 22A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It should be 3051. 23Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. 24A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
We went through this. 25Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes, we did, did we not. We have done the Heydrich 26telex. I am just going to go back momentarily to the

. P-232

1Hess's office telex at 2.56. That is further down page 2277. At 2.56 a.m. you see that, the end of a line? 3A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. I just say that the wrong reference is obviously 4just a slip of pen on Mr Irving's part. 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Mr Irving has accepted that and the right reference should 6be ---- 7A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
The reference to Karl Wolff's evidence has nothing to do 8with what is in the text. It is simply an additional 9cross-reference. 10Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I understand that. That was my mistake, a slight 11diversion. Can we go down about quarter of the way down 12277? 13A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 14Q.
[Mr Rampton]
We have a sentence which begins towards the end of the 15line at 2.56 am. Do you see that? 16A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
At 2.56 a.m. Rudolf Hess's staff also began cabling, 18telephoning, and radioing instructions to gauleiters and 19police authorities around the nation to halt the 20madness". Again, does that seem to you a fair and 21accurate account of what was in that Opdenhof telegram? 22A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No. It is total and obviously deliberate perversion of 23the contents of the telegram. 24Q.
[Mr Rampton]
If you would like to turn to page 613 to note 49? 25A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 26Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I can tell you that the reference is ND 3063-PS, which is

. P-233

1in fact the Nazi party court report of 13th February 1939 2we first looked at. 3A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Exactly right. 4Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Now, Professor, you will need a file called J1, tab 3, 5page 13. 6A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes, I have it. 7Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Thank you very much. I just want to ask you, this is the 8famous or infamous Hitler Himmler telephone log of 1st 9December 1941? 10A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 11Q.
[Mr Rampton]
You do not need your report for this at all. This is a 12question of German language. Do you remember that 13Mr Irving translated or transcribed this entry as (you 14will forgive my German) Verwaltungs Fuhrer der SS Juden 15zu bleiben, except he did not transcribe the first part? 16A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
That is right, Juden zu bleiben. 17Q.
[Mr Rampton]
If it had said Verwaltungs Fuhrer der SS Juden zu bleiben 18in German, would it make any sense? 19MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, he said it would not. 20MR RAMPTON: He said that, did he? 21A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No, it would not make any sense. 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
The second question is a history question rather than a 23German question. As it stands in its correct form 24Verwaltungs Fuhrer der SS haben zu bleiben, is it an entry 25of any significance, historically? 26A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
I suppose it might be, if you were writing a history of

. P-234

1the Verwaltungs Fuhrer der SS. 2Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. 3A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
But in the overall scheme of things it does not seem to me 4of shattering importance. Juden zu bleiben, of course, 5taken by itself, is not grammatically possible really. 6Q.
[Mr Rampton]
I suppose he might have just written down Verwaltungs 7Fuhrer der SS as a sort of isolated, what Mr Irving calls 8an orphan. It is difficult to see, I suppose, what it 9might have meant, is it? 10A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
No. It just would have meant you can see plenty further 11up there. 12Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Yes. 13A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Of just notes to himself really. But clearly it is the 14indentation which is reproduced on the original, the next 15page but not on this transcript on the second line, which 16is the key. 17MR RAMPTON: Yes, you made that point. Thank you. Finally 18this, and I am afraid it is because it is late and it is 19your last question, it is a little bit cheap. You 20remember the dispute on page 400 of your report? 21A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 22Q.
[Mr Rampton]
About the way in which you translated in the third line 23Dr Goebbels' diary entry of 27th March 1942, "in general 24one may conclude that 60 per cent of them must be 25liquidated". Do you remember that? 26A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. That was today.

. P-235

1Q.
[Mr Rampton]
That was today. Can I just show you, to give you some 2satisfaction to go back to Cambridge with, what we find in 3Hitler's War 1991, page 464? 4A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
Yes. 5Q.
[Mr Rampton]
Right at the bottom of page, he says six lines up, have 6you got it, "A barbaric indescribable method is being 7employed here and there is not much left of the Jews 8themselves. By and large you can probably conclude that 960 per cent of them have to be liquidated". Does that 10seem to be a fair translation of the German? 11A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
It seems perfectly reasonable to me. Yes. 12MR RAMPTON: My Lord, those are all the questions I have in 13re-examination. 14MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Thank you very much, Professor Evans. 15That is the end of your quite lengthy spell in the witness 16box. We will resume on Wednesday at 10.30 with Longerich. 17MR RAMPTON: Yes. If we finish this file tonight, I assume 18your Lordship will not want it until tomorrow morning 19anyway. We will send it over to your Lordship's room. 20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, as early as convenient. 21MR RAMPTON: As early as possible. 22A.
[Professor Richard John Evans]
The thing is we will not be able to do it late tonight 23because the courts are not accessible. 24MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I see. What about this recent bundle of 25Mr Irving's? It is called Claimant bundle G. 26MS ROGERS: J2.