Originally posted by SKLOKAZOIDWhen Hogan came to WCW, he was supposedly instrumental in getting Austin fired in favor of his friends when WCW wanted to turn into WWF 1987. Hogan was on top, unchallenged, as wrestling's top star only to sew the seeds for his own "dethroning" by getting rid of the lowly midcarder that would someday surpass him.

That's a great story right there. It may be past its time to tell that, though.

(edited by SKLOKAZOID on 4.12.03 0900)

Fuck the smarky stuff as far as a buildup goes IF they go the route of Austin-Hogan. I mean, you can do the same thing if you just have them say in their own ways "I'm the man" "No, I'M the man!" "No, *I'M* the man!" and sell it as the two biggest stars in WWE history never to have faced off anywhere. And considering it's going to be a one-shot deal for both guys assuming it happens, it doesn't matter WHO wins. It's not like either guy NEEDS to win nor does wither guy need a rub.

Simple is better, and the smark angle just bogs things down IMO.

If Martha Stewart's obituary had a typo in it, would it read "Beloved Aunt"?

The "smark" angle has always been very much a part of Steve Austin's character and has been relevant as recently as Austin's match with Bischoff earlier this year.

They always used to reference how Austin worked for 8 years and got stepped on, how he became a guy who worked in black trunks and made it as an entertanier. In fact, the only reason they haven't referenced it is because Austin is no longer an active competitor.

Austin is working class, Hogan is Hollywood, and their story is about the big star crushing the little guy who ultimately became the big star. It's a story that has been told before our eyes on TV.

To remove that element removes any element of a story and feeds into WWE's current system where they just take two people and put them in a ring together, and expect it to sell.

Austin & Hogan have a legit grudge, both in kayfabe and in real life, that adds realism to any program they could work together.

Austin would never give Hogan the satisfication of working a program with him. It's just not his MO.

Also, I doubt we'll ever see Austin/Goldberg because Austin can't take any of Goldberg's offence and I don't see Austin's ego allowing him the do a match he knows before hand is going to completely suck.

That's why Austin's not wrestling anymore. He could go out there and live off his reputation and do shit match after shit match like Hogan but he's got too much pride for that.

I think the reason Austin's doing a match with Vince instead of say Jericho is because he's not convinced he could do what's necessary to have a great wrestling match but knows he can have a great gimmick story telling brawl with Vince.

Originally posted by fuelinjectedAustin would never give Hogan the satisfication of working a program with him. It's just not his MO.

I could have sworn that part of the reason Austin quit last year was because Rock got to fight Hogan. Rock/Hogan was the "biggest" WM match ever while I can't even remember what Austin did on that show.

Originally posted by fuelinjectedAustin would never give Hogan the satisfication of working a program with him. It's just not his MO.

I could have sworn that part of the reason Austin quit last year was because Rock got to fight Hogan. Rock/Hogan was the "biggest" WM match ever while I can't even remember what Austin did on that show.

(edited by Santa Sangre on 4.12.03 1601)

Rock got to face Hogan because Austin turned it down. Then they wanted Austin to take the title from Jericho and transition it to Triple H. He shot that down. And then he ended up facing the man who showed up loaded to WrestleMania - Scott Hall. Then he went home the next week for the first time because the creative sucked and Vince didn't fire Hall.

I don't want WMXX to be loaded with geriatric matches either, but I would like a nod to the stars of the past that have helped make Wrestlemania what it is today. I'm thinking about inducting something like "20 Legends of Wrestlemania". Guys who put their hand up at that event. A good twenty for me would be; Andre, Hogan, Piper, Bret Hart, Vince, The Brain, HBK, Austin, Undertaker, Steamboat, Savage, Foley, Rock, HHH, Gorilla Monsoon, Demolition, Jake Roberts, Davey Boy, Bossman, Warrior.

I realise this list can be very subjective and emotive with guys like Sid, Owen, Hall, etc unlucky to miss out. By all means attack my list and suggest additions and deletions but lets not turn this into a list thread.

CheersG

Warrior Quote: "Presuming initial consensualness, where exactly do we draw the lines of our judgment pinning down the responsibility and accountability inextricably attached to each human life? "

However, to say Hogan vs. Rock was the "biggest" WM main event is a HUGE overstatement. It was nowhere the magnitude of Hogan vs. Andre, and the wrestling itself, or lack of, brought it down...

And Rock has never eclipsed Austin or Hogan. Just because Rock is mainstream doesn't mean within the wrestling community he's #1...When Austin was in his prime popularity (1997-1999), nothing and no one could compare to that magnitude...

"Win if you can, lose if you must, but in the end, always cheat..." - Jesse "the Body" Ventura

Originally posted by Y2J 420A few of the guy's you listed are dead mind you...

However, to say Hogan vs. Rock was the "biggest" WM main event is a HUGE overstatement. It was nowhere the magnitude of Hogan vs. Andre, and the wrestling itself, or lack of, brought it down...

And Rock has never eclipsed Austin or Hogan. Just because Rock is mainstream doesn't mean within the wrestling community he's #1...When Austin was in his prime popularity (1997-1999), nothing and no one could compare to that magnitude...

Austin/Rock was bigger then Rock/Hogan for one. You could also argue Austin/Rock was bigger then Hogan/Andre because it made more money and they easily could have toppled the Silverdome attendance if the AstroDome was bigger.

Originally posted by Y2J 420A few of the guy's you listed are dead mind you...

However, to say Hogan vs. Rock was the "biggest" WM main event is a HUGE overstatement. It was nowhere the magnitude of Hogan vs. Andre, and the wrestling itself, or lack of, brought it down...

And Rock has never eclipsed Austin or Hogan. Just because Rock is mainstream doesn't mean within the wrestling community he's #1...When Austin was in his prime popularity (1997-1999), nothing and no one could compare to that magnitude...

Austin/Rock was bigger then Rock/Hogan for one. You could also argue Austin/Rock was bigger then Hogan/Andre because it made more money and they easily could have toppled the Silverdome attendance if the AstroDome was bigger.

When I made the post saying Rock/Hogan was the biggest WM match ever, I put the "" there for sarcasticness. But now that I think about it, to me it was the biggest match ever. I was just a little guy when Hogan/Andre happened. And I was a WCW mark when Rock/Austin was originating. So for me Rock/Hogan is the biggest.

Originally posted by Y2J 420A few of the guy's you listed are dead mind you...

They can still be acknowledged for their efforts. Halls of Fame are filled with the names and achievements of dead people.

A lot of the living ones probably wouldn't turn up for whatever reason as well.

EDIT: typo

(edited by Big G on 4.12.03 1829)Warrior Quote: "Presuming initial consensualness, where exactly do we draw the lines of our judgment pinning down the responsibility and accountability inextricably attached to each human life? "

Originally posted by fuelinjectedRock got to face Hogan because Austin turned it down. Then they wanted Austin to take the title from Jericho and transition it to Triple H. He shot that down. And then he ended up facing the man who showed up loaded to WrestleMania - Scott Hall. Then he went home the next week for the first time because the creative sucked and Vince didn't fire Hall.

And things got SO much better after that.

It's too bad that the WWF can't find a way to purge itself of Austin, who certainly has nothing on Scott Hall. As a matter of fact, get all the guys who are injured or used up and get them out of there. They'd have a downturn for a while, but how will they ever be able to get anything done five years from now? Develop some guys and let them run with it.

Originally posted by fuelinjectedRock got to face Hogan because Austin turned it down. Then they wanted Austin to take the title from Jericho and transition it to Triple H. He shot that down. And then he ended up facing the man who showed up loaded to WrestleMania - Scott Hall. Then he went home the next week for the first time because the creative sucked and Vince didn't fire Hall.

And things got SO much better after that.

It's too bad that the WWF can't find a way to purge itself of Austin, who certainly has nothing on Scott Hall. As a matter of fact, get all the guys who are injured or used up and get them out of there. They'd have a downturn for a while, but how will they ever be able to get anything done five years from now? Develop some guys and let them run with it.

Amen brother. All this Austin-fellating talk about how much more of a God he is than Hogan is smarky, irrelevant, conjecture-based bullshit. No one knows for a fact Austin won't work with Hulk. Austin, like just about everyone else in wrestling, has one God: money. If the money's good, he'll do it. Why else is he back? He still hates the writing, but now he just bites his tongue about it. Just because Stone Cold didn't want to do something two years ago doesn't mean he won't do it now. Remember, two years ago he was a wife-beating drunk obsessed about his spot and his legacy, with delusions of having great matches with a shot neck for eternity. Life has bitch-slapped Austin into a more realstic mindset nowadays, and he's much more reasonable about what he wants and where he's at, and a punch-kick to ravenous fan reaction with a $200 000-400 000 payoff won't seem so hideous to him once his head's been out of his ass long enough to get oxygen. In fact, right around XX it'll look down right appealing to him. And not one person (who counts) would fault him for taking that.

I don't know what you fanboys are basing this fiction on, but Austin hasn't done any better than any other wrestler in terms of pride or dignity. He's licked his wounds and come back to Vince, tail between his legs, like everybody else. That's the advantage Vince has of being the only game in town, the only company where you can call the Chairman at 3 AM while he's banging his wife and talk business. People always come back to Vince because Vince always manages to keep that company going some way, somehow. Even Bret is warming up to him. Everyone realizes that if you want to be a part of this business, on this continent, you have to have a dialogue with Vince McMahon. You have to do business with Vince. You can fight with him, screw him over, get screwed over by him, you can scream at each other, you can punch him in the eye...but you have to shake his hand and say: "yeah, Vince, I'll work with ya" if you want to exist in this business. Austin has no more pride than any other person, and if he does, he's shown no less of a willingness to swallow it and ink a deal with the devil.

What do you call Albert Einstein beatin' off?Give up?A stroke of genius!

Originally posted by HMDAmen brother. All this Austin-fellating talk about how much more of a God he is than Hogan is smarky, irrelevant, conjecture-based bullshit. No one knows for a fact Austin won't work with Hulk. Austin, like just about everyone else in wrestling, has one God: money. If the money's good, he'll do it. Why else is he back?

The crowd and the rush of performing probably have a great deal to do with it. Not everyone is cut from the same cloth where money is the be all and end all. Austin doesn't live an extravegent life. He didn't party away his fortune like Flair. He certainly doesn't need the money anymore. Sure, it's nice to add some more cash to the bank account but the guy is set for life.

Not everyone in this world is purely motivated by the size of their bank account. Especially when a person's bank account is already massive. This seems to be the crux of everyone debate on here with you, money. People have other motivations and other ego trips besides money.

Originally posted by HMD Life has bitch-slapped Austin into a more realstic mindset nowadays, and he's much more reasonable about what he wants and where he's at, and a punch-kick to ravenous fan reaction with a $200 000-400 000 payoff won't seem so hideous to him once his head's been out of his ass long enough to get oxygen. In fact, right around XX it'll look down right appealing to him. And not one person (who counts) would fault him for taking that.

Why? Because someone may have different motivations then you? Why is that a head in your ass attitude? Because people are more concerned with their legacy instead of becoming a fucking joke for a few more dollars that they probably don't even need?

That's an EMPTY existence, if you sacrifice everything you stand for just to grab some more cash. If you're filling a void with cash when the cash dries up, you've got nothing. If it's your legacy that drives you, when the paydays are gone, you're gonna be a lot more happy.

Originally posted by HMDI don't know what you fanboys are basing this fiction on, but Austin hasn't done any better than any other wrestler in terms of pride or dignity. He's licked his wounds and come back to Vince, tail between his legs, like everybody else.

Hmmm ... it could be the fact that it was Vince who made the first move through Jim Ross to bring Austin back? It could also be that he's not hobbling out to the ring, "wrestling", and living off a reputation.

Originally posted by HMDEven Bret is warming up to him.

Whether Bret comes back has ZERO to do with Vince and everything to do with Vince. Another one of these numbnuts who has the gall to care about their reputation and legacy. Vince has been doing everything short of blowing Bret for the past 3 years to try and get him back. Oh but if Bret makes an appearance, he's crawling back, right?

The point was that Austin won't work with Hogan because he doesn't want to. He's said as much in several interviews. You can take up the conjecture based bullshit about Austin turning down the match with Hogan at WM18 with Meltzer because I'm sure he just pulled that one out of his ass back then.

Feul, you've got to realize that not everyone is an internet wrestling freak. And few people have the upside down set of values that goes with being one. Austin's legacy, and all this talk about what he "stands for" exists only in the imagination of a statistically insignificant number of people. He's not a war hero. He's not a comic book character. You seem to have his character, and the man who plays the character, confused. I've never seen the man himself publicly stand for anything. There are not too many people who would honestly maintain, as you seem to, that beating his wife doesn't tarnish his legacy, but wrestling Hogan, one of the biggest stars in wrestling history, does. Don't you understand how silly that sounds? No one but you (and smarks like you) would think that this is below Austin. No one is going to stop cheering for him if he wrestles Hogan. No one will feel he has demeaned and embarrssed himself. It's just business, it's not the grand battle between good and evil you're making it out to be. And if it was, Steve fucking Austin wouldn't be good.

Now, I don't mean to give the impression that money is the center of my life, because it isn't. But you've got to try and consider for a moment how much it costs to live a privileged life. Austin does live a privileged life, if you think he keeps all his millions in a matteress in the back room of the dusty shack he lives in (which doubles as a general store), then once more you've confused the character with the man. When you become famous, it is virtually impossible not to live a lavish existence. Security guards, housekeepers, car collections...these things add up. His children live in England. I realize you think that money can't buy happiness, but it can sure as hell relieve the stress of not worrying about supporting yourself, and most people will do anything they can to add to that support system. Even at the expense of a legacy, the existence of which is debatable at best.

And yes, Bret appearing is still going back on his word. You can't say you'll never ever do something because it disgusts you and it has betrayed you, and then say, well...they asked me nicely. I will lose a little respect for him if he goes back, but if it happens I won't be surprised and I won't let it bother me.

What do you call Albert Einstein beatin' off?Give up?A stroke of genius!

I never said it would tarnish his legacy to wrestle Hogan. I just said he doesn't want to wrestle Hogan for his own reasons. Some of those we know, like the way Hogan treated him in WCW. Some we probably don't even know. The fact is that he had the chance to wrestle Hogan and he turned it down.

I could give a damn about Austin's legacy but it's what's important to guys like him, Bret, and Foley. They're consumed with their peers and fans perception of them. It may be insignificant to you but it's significant to them. It's like a football player who walks away while he's still good to maintain the respect of the fans and his peers. Or a player turning down more money for still a lot of money because he'd rather be happy then a little richer.

I never said Steve Austin was a good person, a role model, or anything. I'm just saying his actions in life, his interviews, his book, all lead more to a guy obsessed with his legacy then adding a few more dollars to the bank account. If that was the truth, he'd be whoring himself out and doing horrible match after horrible match.

You're the one implying that it makes him a better person then Hogan. It doesn't necessarily mean that. It just means they're different people with different motives. Hogan's strictly a do what makes me money type of guy. Austin takes it more personal.

You're projecting your feelings about Hogan and Austin into what I was saying. All I was saying was that Austin doesn't want to work with Hogan and he never will.

Originally posted by Hogan's My DadAustin's legacy, and all this talk about what he "stands for" exists only in the imagination of a statistically insignificant number of people.

And including the wrestlers themselves, probably. Get anyone who's had a couple of decent matches and more than 10 years in the business, and they get misty-eyed when talking about their "legacy." Shit, listen to any Shawn Michaels or Bret Hart interview. Or HHH talk about Ric Flair.

Originally posted by Hogan's My DadHe's not a war hero. He's not a comic book character. You seem to have his character, and the man who plays the character, confused.

I'd wager that any guy in the locker room probably has this problem. Unhealthy? Yes. But they have outsized egos, to go along with their bodies.

Originally posted by Hogan's My Dad Don't you understand how silly that sounds? No one but you (and smarks like you) would think that this is below Austin.

I love these high-and-mighty posts scorning fanboys, especially from someone with hundreds of posts. Are you an emissary sent from the real world? Or just fighting us on our home turf? Get the fuck over yourself.

WWE Past Superstars can receive a tribute in every single PPV show...but there are only one superstar who didnt received the propper honors just because am Ego conflict....this man needs a strong event, an epic celebration big enough to comeback and say good bye to his fans..

Originally posted by asteroidboy>I love these high-and-mighty posts scorning fanboys, especially from someone with hundreds of posts. Are you an emissary sent from the real world? Or just fighting us on our home turf? Get the fuck over yourself.

And I love how you can't seem to make an argument without resorting to petty cursing, after citing a post out-of-context. I am a wrestling fan. I don't consider myself a "smart" or a "mark" and I don't "mark out" for anything. I like stuff or I don't. Now in the correct context, that quote was saying that saying Austin's legacy is injured by working with Hogan but not by beating his wife is silly. And only a hardcore fan, who holds the virtue of the art, whatever it might be, to an impossibly high standard, would make that mistake. I wasn't saying that Fuel is below me. I debate Feul all the time...we hardly ever agree with each other and we've never had to curse or resort to such insults. Perhaps it is you who needs to get over himself, or at least cuss me out in a context relative to the point I made, and not one of your own invention.

What do you call Albert Einstein beatin' off?Give up?A stroke of genius!

If I didn't know any better with the whole "honor" thing that it would legit be an ROH aluminus faction, but Reigns wouldn't qualify. Ambrose was as advertised, they'll be able to print money with him.