You don't understand! "You" being everyone! For 5 years on this BBS I have had exactly one comment every time the topic of Crusher has come up: "She has beautiful hair." That's been it and it's been my way of saying "Crusher is as boring as dirt to me" because truly that's all I have to say about her. I wasn't exaggerating mind you, I really did admire her hair quite a bit. But I also needed to say she was as boring as dirt to me without actually saying it. Now what am I to do?

Because you've never met Jeri (yes, the convention that time, shut up, I'm making a point. oh gods! her damn assistant writes that twitter feed! Stop interrupting...), and Seven of Nine is just a manifestation of Brannan Braga's ego?

You're into a dude, dude.

Woman are just layers and layers of falseness (makeup, jewellery, polish, clothes, perfumes, surgery and hair dye.) until you find nothing (SHREK!) or a dude.

I don't see how Ms. Lien's shyness would be relevant to the way writers treated her character.

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Perhaps because they weren't getting the performances they imagined? I dunno, but I do know several people who worked with her found her rather tricky to communicate with. Some actors and characters just fail to click with the writing team.

If there's stuff from long before her dismissal about the difficulties writing for her, then I'd believe it, but otherwise it just looks like rationalization.

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As I mentioned, you can see them tinkering with Kes all through the series: her "elogium", the break up with Neelix, moving from gardening to nursing, discovering powers, pairing her with the EMH, then Tuvok, changing her hair and costuming, etc.

They really didn't have to rationalize anything about her dismissal. The producers had to let a character go in order to be able to afford to add Jeri Ryan. They narrowed down to the two characters/actors that caused them problems (be they discipline problems or writing problems, or whatever) and chose Lien to go when Wang got the "People" accolade. The writers say the character was hard to write for, and the many changes to the character over the years seems to bear that out.

Similarly, they let Gates McFadden go in TNG. Publicly, the character "wasn't working" and they recast for a different approach to the CMO. As we found out later, there was friction on the set caused by delays due to McFadden's very fine hair losing its style under the hot lights (hence the choice of expensive wigs when she returned), plus the eventual declaration from the actress that there had been friction between her and someone on high in production.

Similarly, TOS let Grace Lee Whitney go. Publicly, the character "wasn't necessary" and they wanted Kirk not to be tied down to one romantic interest. As we found out later, from the actress, there had been an addiction to diet pills, and ah... friction between her and someone on high in production.

OK, so the fact that they were going to keep Kes and drop Kim would seem to settle the argument about how Kes had to go because she was so difficult to write for. Had that been the case, she would have been the first choice to go.

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No, it doesn't "settle" anything. Wang was also causing a series of difficulties - supposedly not turning up on time, despite warnings, not being on hand to do the off-screen lines when a dialog partner was on camera, and refusing to do his "homework" shadowing the director when he was pressing to be allowed to direct.

When Wang wasn't able to be let go, they then had to choose another. The writers could probably see plenty of story possibilities for everyone else, and less for Kes. They'd already tried a range of stories with her, leaving perhaps only Miracle Life-Expectancy Extension to go, in order to avoid latex age makeups. Lien was supposedly already allergic to her ear tips, which is why they let Kes let her hair down.

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your posts on this seem to be "whatever the writers/producers say is right and good enough for me." I guess I'm a bit more skeptical, especially as mentioned, since Lien was not the first choice to go. Wang was, they dropped that because of a magazine story, and all of the sudden "Kes is hard to write for," despite there being a lot of strong Kes stories in seasons 2 and 3, and no signs of any issue with the character. She has psychic powers, a great rapport with the Doctor, etc., and yet she's suddenly "hard to write for?"

So how were they writing "Warlord" and "Before And After?" Heck, Kes was getting more and better stories at the time she left than Tuvok or Chakotay were.

But hey, TPTB said "she's hard to write for," that's why she was dropped, so therefore it must be true.

Kenneth Biller said that he thought it was a pity Kes left because there were so many possibilities for her given her unique lifespan and abilities, so I don't believe the writers couldn't come up with story ideas for her.....but it was easier to write lines of dialogue into episodes for characters like Chakotay and Harry because they could be given filler lines or technobabble lines each episode. Kes actually had to be given her own stories or worked into other stories and that obviously required more effort. I don't think it was a question of "can't", simply "can't be bothered".

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So I do believe Kes was more difficult to write for than say Tuvok or Harry because they could get their quota of lines shoved in saying stuff like "shields down to 80%" or any random Starfleet nonsense. Since Kes was a more unique character, she was more difficult to write for. But the producers jettisoning Kes was not a testament to a character that had no potential/was too difficult, but simply to the laziness of the writers who were far more comfortable writing character types they'd already done.

Kenneth Biller said that he thought it was a pity Kes left because there were so many possibilities for her given her unique lifespan and abilities, so I don't believe the writers couldn't come up with story ideas for her.....but it was easier to write lines of dialogue into episodes for characters like Chakotay and Harry because they could be given filler lines or technobabble lines each episode. Kes actually had to be given her own stories or worked into other stories and that obviously required more effort. I don't think it was a question of "can't", simply "can't be bothered".

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So I do believe Kes was more difficult to write for than say Tuvok or Harry because they could get their quota of lines shoved in saying stuff like "shields down to 80%" or any random Starfleet nonsense. Since Kes was a more unique character, she was more difficult to write for. But the producers jettisoning Kes was not a testament to a character that had no potential/was too difficult, but simply to the laziness of the writers who were far more comfortable writing character types they'd already done.

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Per your theory, Neelix should have been a pain to write for as well for the same reasons. I just don't buy it.

I just love the audacity that some of us feel that "we" know better than the actual people who are producing the show, how to to produce the show. Boggles my mind.

Your mileage may vary of course, and certainly there are times when the fans "know" the show better than the production staff, but with regard to how to handle a character that isn't working out, or how to handle an actor who is giving you problems, none of you really know or understand what goes on in that kind of situation on a network show.

We can argue till we're blue in the face () but the fact is that they got rid of Kes. From my own experience working on scripted dramas on network television -- and with working with some of the writers mentioned in this very thread -- I believe they are telling the truth. Or, at least, as much of the truth as is warranted to tell.

Well as I said doubleohfive, clearly Kenneth Biller didn't agree so it wasn't a unanimous decision. There were obviously some writers who had no problem with her, and given how much Chakotay, Tuvok, Neelix etc were pushed into the background from season 4, I'd hardly say Kes was the only characters some of the writers weren't that bothered with. The uneven character development and utilization in Voyager just stinks of laziness or lack of daring to try something new, I don't blame the characters themselves very much at all.

I just love the audacity that some of us feel that "we" know better than the actual people who are producing the show, how to to produce the show. Boggles my mind.

Your mileage may vary of course, and certainly there are times when the fans "know" the show better than the production staff, but with regard to how to handle a character that isn't working out, or how to handle an actor who is giving you problems, none of you really know or understand what goes on in that kind of situation on a network show.

We can argue till we're blue in the face () but the fact is that they got rid of Kes. From my own experience working on scripted dramas on network television -- and with working with some of the writers mentioned in this very thread -- I believe they are telling the truth. Or, at least, as much of the truth as is warranted to tell.

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Yes we have the audacity to question whether what we're told is necessarily the truth or just a party line. It's really "audacious" not to just accept whatever you hear as the truth.

The sky is blue. Are you going to question that? Probably not, because you can see the sky yourself.

Traffic in Hollywood is awful. Are you going to question that? Probably not. Perhaps you've been here. Perhaps you hear about it from locals or others who have visited.

"We wrote Kes off the show, because there weren't many stories left to tell." Are you going to question that? Of course you are. Because you (the general you, not you specifically, sonak) think you know how to write for television or how a character should be portrayed.

Let's put it another way: Would you tell a doctor to prescribe ritalin over buspar for some other patient? Of course not. Because you (again, the general you) are not a doctor.

Would you tell a fireman how to put out a blazing fire in a three-story complex in the middle of downtown? Of course not - you are not a firefighter.

There's a fine line between knowing what you want a character to do and writing it that way, versus understanding the intricacies of how a television series is written and run and all the other elements that get factored into it. Those of you railing against the dismissal of Jennifer Lien don't seem to be giving that part of this particular equation much consideration, and that's the point I'm simply trying to make.

The sky is blue. Are you going to question that? Probably not, because you can see the sky yourself.

Traffic in Hollywood is awful. Are you going to question that? Probably not. Perhaps you've been here. Perhaps you hear about it from locals or others who have visited.

"We wrote Kes off the show, because there weren't many stories left to tell." Are you going to question that? Of course you are. Because you (the general you, not you specifically, sonak) think you know how to write for television or how a character should be portrayed.

Let's put it another way: Would you tell a doctor to prescribe ritalin over buspar for some other patient? Of course not. Because you (again, the general you) are not a doctor.

Would you tell a fireman how to put out a blazing fire in a three-story complex in the middle of downtown? Of course not - you are not a firefighter.

There's a fine line between knowing what you want a character to do and writing it that way, versus understanding the intricacies of how a television series is written and run and all the other elements that get factored into it. Those of you railing against the dismissal of Jennifer Lien don't seem to be giving that part of this particular equation much consideration, and that's the point I'm simply trying to make.

OK so some of us find it easy to believe that the writers really did find it too difficult to write for Kes and they put soo much effort in and they found it didn't work.
And some of us feel like Kes was easy to write for and the writers were just lying.
And some of us, like myself, feel like only some writers had issues writing for Kes because they were kinda lazy and couldn't be bothered thinking of how to write for a fairly unique character, while other writers such as Kenneth Biller were inspired by Kes but simply weren't high enough up the pecking order for his opinion to be taken seriously.

Let's just agree to disagree. Surely most of us can agree that Jeri Taylor wasn't particularly a fan of writing for Kes or she would have kept her on the show.

I just love the audacity that some of us feel that "we" know better than the actual people who are producing the show, how to to produce the show. Boggles my mind.

Your mileage may vary of course, and certainly there are times when the fans "know" the show better than the production staff, but with regard to how to handle a character that isn't working out, or how to handle an actor who is giving you problems, none of you really know or understand what goes on in that kind of situation on a network show.

Really, there's no way to say this in a medium such as this without sounding like a douche, so please try to understand that I in no way mean it that way, but until you've actually worked on a show, --and I mean, not just a day or two, but a whole season of being there and bleeding and sweating and staying late at night and being a part of the process -the entire process -- then you really can't understand the whole picture of it.

I don't know what other way to explain it, but there it is.

Another element we have not yet considered: Those of you who constantly whinge and complain on this issue -- about all these stories that were left to tell about Kes... let's hear them. Because clearly, you believe those stories are there, and it would not be that illogical an assumption that you have at least ONE story worked out, so I'd like to read them. Prove your point to me and wow me with your never-told Kes stories.