player inthedeficittalks.>> i am really worried we have a probability we could go over the cliff, and that would be catastrophic. not to go over the cliff, we have to compromise, have to have revenue. the problems are real, the solutions are painful, no easy way out. the only way you can do this ifs to have a balanced approach and that is where people are headed. connell: matt welch is here. what do you make of all this, matt? >> there is nobody at the table actually interested in cutting the size of the government. that seems strange to democrats who think we're living in some sort of mythical age of austerity. we had a really good shot. george w. bush used the hell out of spending four years. i don't think john boehner is ultimately interested in it. talkiig $110 billion, the smudge of potential cuts and they're negotiating it away without any entitlement. dagen: are we past the point with no return? will we become even more of a nation centered around our government that does not promote private business? will anybody ever fix this? >> we will fix it. everything is ultimately

over the next ten years. that's about 40% of the $4trilliondeficitgoalthat we have. that's the same thing that simpson-bowles had, 40% revenue. so the only way you can reach that, incidentally, is to allow the rates to go up. just this idea of we're going to take a look at the tax code, change some credits and deductions, you can't come up with enough money. >> so any deal will have to include at least some hike in the tax rate. >> i don't think there's any other way to approach it. that's why the president has taken this position. if we're going to make sure, for example, that we spare families making $250,000 a year or less from any income tax increase, then this idea that we're going to go into the tax code and find $1.6 trillion over ten years becomes almost impossible. we need to protect those middle income families. >> you said today that congress should deal with the fiscal cliff crisis now, but tackle entitlements, the entitlement questions, later. yesterday, senator lamar alexander said the only thing the president has to do to get an agreement from republicans now is in hi

. it is still about three times theaveragedeficitunderbush. let us go back to the clinton tax era. eileen anywhere between republican and libertarian. up -- yes i am not. i lean anywhere between republican and a libertarian. host: what do you make of republicans up on capitol hill -- to sort of a back off the tax pledge that he took when he ran for senate, saying he would not raise taxes. caller: if we are going to raise taxes my important thing is raising them on everybody. because if they try to strike a compromise where only the rich get taxed, then it gets more progressive. it is not a point to help the budget. we are right to raise taxes, raise them all the way down to where clinton had them. host: senators lindsey gramm represented peter king, talking publicly abandoning the pledge of democrats will talk seriously about entitlement reforms. rest in peace, grover norquist? there are not enough republican tax hikes -- republicans to hike taxes for obama. the left is doing its best to make tax hikes appear to be a foregone conclusion. that is their take on tax hikes. eddie, on our line

downdeficit. thecampaign promise is to cutthedeficitinhalf. he said he would do it by focusing at the center of his proposal, going to be entitlement reform. we have seen none of that. more than four years. >> bret: interesting op-ed by bill archer and chris cox in "wall street journal" saying that the real outlay is $86 trillion of unfunded liabilities. obligations when you include all of the federal government, what it owes. that is obviously dwarfs the $16 trillion in debt we hold. >> which raises the question why are republicans allowing the entire debate to be about taxes? and about the war among republicans over holding the line on the norquist pledge or not. when what obama is proposing on raising the rates on the 2% is a triviality. it will reduce the deficit from $11.01 trillion to $1. $1.02 trillion. eight cents on the dollar. nothing. lunch money. it's rounding error. yet that is all the debate we are hearing. obama understands this. he is trying to, he is not trying to fix our fiscal issues and problems. he's trying to destroy the republicans. by insisting that ther

which means lowering tax rates notnecessarilydeficit reduction. it is the same policy romney had. it is where they were before the election. they gotta wake up and see the election, change things and they actually have to meet democrats somewhere in the middle. >> bill: i would hope. i would hope. new york times this morning, front page of the business section in terms of closing loopholes, romney was never specific about which one. new york times is saying that they know -- now we know one of the ones they're targeting. the headline is a tax break once sacred is now seen as vulnerable. what they're talking about is the mortgage interest deduction. there was no doubt it is on the table. it is one they're targeting rather than raise tax rates on the wealthy, they're going to either limit or get rid of the mortgage interest deduction. which is the most popular one. >> the most popular one. politically difficult i think. that's really the problem with romney's entire approach that said we'll just create revenue

ofthedeficit. that'san economic fact. >> we've been open to revenue by closinging loopholes as long as it's tied to spending cuts. >> as long as it's mitt romney's plan. that's what we're for. >> stephanie: what? you're acting like, it's almost like a hostage crisis. like they don't have the gun and are issuing demands. like what? >> what are you talking about? >> stephanie: exactly. mike in philadelphia, you're on the "stephanie miller show." hi, mike. >> caller: hi, steph how are you doing? >> stephanie: good, go ahead. >> caller: eric con tore brought obamacare back on the table. they won't leave that alone. >> stephanie: no, they are just the sorest losers in the world. it's like he won he won at the supreme court he won at the ballot box again moving on, we are not repealing obamacare. like really? the white house warned monday that american consumers will spend $200 billion less if the looming fiscal cliff is not averted and tax hikes are not spread across the board. the economy would take a hit of $500 billion, probably sending the country back boo recession. i get what the white h

study out, sweden suggests that teens and adults withattentiondeficitdisorderare four to seven times more likely that be others to break the law. the study published in the new england journal of medicine also found that the use of adhd medication into adulthood might also help curb crime. >>> markets left off on a high note before closing for today's holiday. the dow close at the 12,836 after gaining 48 points. the s&p was up three and the nasdaq added nine. >>> heading overseas now, the nikkei shot up 144 points, while the hang seng climbed 218. >>> hostess has made their last twinkies and loaves of wonder bread. the company whose products date back to the late 1800s has received permission to sell off its brands putting more than 18,000 workers in the unemployment line on thanksgiving eve. >>> on a brighter note, home improvement retailer lowe's handed out 22,000 thanksgiving dinners to new york and new jersey families impacted by hurricane sandy. meanwhile, demonstratored protested outside and inside a walmart in oakland, california. similar protests are planned at over 1,000 wal

with anincredibledeficitdeductionin place. >> i plan to wake up with a big hangover. >> if we would go ahead with sequestration and increase in tax rates, they have to be happy. where is santelli on this? >> he does wear a pin, santelli. it's a good question. >> look, i just think that it is true that january may not be a debacle. as someone that cares about -- let's put my cards on the table. higher stock prices. we ain't going to go in that direction. it's not good for the stock market. >> we hear it all the time from business leaders. i heard it yesterday. head of north american m&a. if you get me a deal, i as ceo am going to make significant decisions that i'm not making now. >> there it is. it's the decisions. it's the decision to hire. decision to invest. it's a little dicey. you don't know what the world is going to look like. i think that the guy i care about may be more than the people meeting with president is jpmorgan head of m&a. these are few and far between. i spoke to ceo of pbh after interview he said i want to make money for shareholders taking advantage of the fact that int

're willing to close tax loopholes to reducethedeficit, nowwe haven't yet seen that from congressional republican leaders, but we obviously are seeing it from prominent republicans you showed including senator graham and senator bob corker. >> question about two of those gentlemen here in a moment. cnn this morning talked to grover norquist, incumbents dare to break this pledge, dare to vote to raise taxes. the question was will he do it again? here's norquist. >> we would certainly highlight who has kept their commitment and who hasn't, but the point is historically the people who lose do so because the people in their state have figured that out. >> back to, i think, where you were going a moment ago, bob, it is interesting that when you look at the top two, two of the top republican senators we're talking about who are flirting to break this pledge, break with grover norquist and consider raising taxes on the wealthy they both face re-election in 2014. i'm talking about saxby chambliss and south carolina's lindsey graham. does that say to you that the political winds could be shifti

budget is on an unsustainable path. thebudgetdeficitwhichpeaked at about 10% of gdp in 2009 and now is 7% of gdp is expected to narrow further in the coming years as the economy continues to recover. the cbo projects that under a plausible set of assumptions, the budget deficit would still be greater than 4% of gdp in 2018, assuming the economy has returned with potential by then. moreover, under the cbo projection, could deficit and raise your federal debt to gdp would subsequently returned to an upward trend. we should all understand that long-term projections of ever increasing deficits will never actually come to pass because the willingness of plunder to continue to fund the government can only be sustained by irresponsible fiscal plans and actions. host: that was ben bernanke at the economic club of new york yesterday. looking for your confidence in the u.s. economy. already getting some comments on facebook -- abroad we are taking your comments on twitter, facebook, and calls. we start with joseph from maryland on the democratic line. thanks for joining us. caller: good morni

the typical washington show game and take a few bills. if we want to cut thebudgetdeficitwehave to look at everything that's been passed and make decisions against each of those. if obama-care is the most important policy considered its survives. if there are other things being considered it doesn't survive. that's the only way to approach cliff that's running out very quickly. rick: if there is a deal spending cuts have to be put on the table and obama-care cost a lot of money. >> that's not true. it cuts the deficit in a 10-year period and even more so over 20 years. john boehner said in his own op-ed that he tried two different ways to get rid of obama-care, going to the supreme court and in the election. they tried 33 times to repeal obama-care in the congress and failed all 33 times. the bottom line is now we have obama-care. it is the law of the lands. we need to take the off the table and focus on the bush tax cuts which american voters decided they want to keep for people under $250,000 and they want to get rid of for people making more than $250,000. rick: obama-care lowers the

and we'll have another trilliondollardeficitaccordingto cbo moving into next year and we can't afford anymore like that. if we take what obama would be willing to support which is increase in the age of, again recipients and other type of reforms like that, then we have a legitimate negotiation as we move into it. but when you have liberal members of the democratic party stepping forward and saying before the process begins they will not accept any type of entitlement reform, it makes it untenable process from the beginning. jon: is it no entitlement reform, simon, or is it perhaps entitlement reform when it comes to medicare? i haven't heard anybody talk about reforming social security on democratic side? >> that is good question and i think, look i think we're in the early stages, chris, of this whole debate. eric cantor went on morning joe said and won't raise taxes on anybody under any circumstance which would you argue is stopping negotiations. both sides are laying out positions right now. there are negotiations going on. clearly the fiscal cliff is scaring everybody into action

. >> well --. megyn: where does the money go? does it all go tothedeficit, orto the debt? >> no. megyn: because we, a lot of americans think, all right, i want to help my fellow citizens and i don't like this national debt but you know who i don't want to help? i don't want to have jeff neely to have another trip to the hot tub and drink his red wine. >> forgotten about him. megyn: the feds shown propensity for misspending the people's money. >> well, think about this. we're talking about, we have a government that runs a trillion dollar deficit every year. that borrows more than three cents of every dollar it spends. here we're talking about a deal that would be 1.6 trillion over 10 years. talking about $160 billion a year. it is just, just littlest scratch in the surface when you talk about long-term debt and different sits. this is being made out to be a big deal but this money will get you can ised pretty fast. megyn: look at the fight we have over just that. can you imagine the fight we would have if we really tried to tackle the $16 trillion debt? chris, great to see you. >> good

address the fundamental problem and driver offederaldeficitsanddebt. and that's reforming these entitlement programs that are on an unsustainable path right now. >> so but remember the president also said when he extended the 35% tax rate for the upper income for those making more than $250,000 a year, he says -- he said then that was the last time he was going to do it. it was a one-shot deal. he wasn't going to do it anymore. and as you know he ran his re-election campaign on the notion he was going to increase the tax rates from 35% to 39.6% for those people making more than $250,000 a year. you think he's likely to blink on that? >> you know, i don't know. i hope he is at least willing to work with republicans. republicans are open for business up here. if he wants to bring entitlement reform into this discussion -- and you made the comment or showed dick durbin's comment this morning about that would be too hard to do. well, all the work's been done. you've had simpson bolls, a lot of work out there has been done. we know what the issues are and what it's going to tak

sending the country off the fiscal cliff. congress has 45 days to come to an agreementondeficitreductionand if they don't spending cuts will go into effect january 31st. both sides are willing to compromise. >>> it is my decision to put them down and violate the pledge, long story short only if democrats will do entitlement reform. >> the key sticking point is what 0 do -- to do about taxes. they want to raise taxes and republicans don't want to. they are willing to cap certain deductions. >>> and perspective police officers, you can start applying for jobs at the san francisco police department this morning and they will start accepting applications for entry level police officers. eligible application cans have to be at least 20 years old, have a valid california driver's license and high school diploma or equivalent. it will end on friday december 7th and the starting pay for a san francisco police officer is 88,000 dollars a year. well for the san francisco 49ers there are quarterback questions all over again. it happened for the second straight game for the quarterback a

. >> we know that the only way we can solve our long-term debtanddeficitproblemis to fix the unsustainable growth rates of our very popular entitlement programs. the president has from time to time indicated an openness to that. now is the time to actually do it. >> 42 business groups sent a letter to leaders of congress asking them to do tax reform to lower tax rates and also address entitlement reforms. >> shepard: democrats say they want more revenue, more taxes here. what about entitlement changes? >> well, any time you start talking about tweaking these programs, there are groups in washington around the country that mobilize to try and stop cuts. the number two senate democrat, dick durbin, says he'd be open to look at entitlements, but not part of the fiscal cliff talks. here is the senate majority leader's view. >> at the meeting we had that i mentioned with president and the four leaders, president obama said that social security is not part of what is what we're going to do in this. i agree with him. and there are things that i personally believe there are thing

service dealing with a 12 billiondollardeficitamongthe closure and cut back is a local post office as wayne found it it's a throw back and gem mostly for the woman who runs it. >>reporter: if you lack closely you might see yourself in the time lapse symbolic of our world. relax if you can. destination lies beyond the freeway. past the suburb of orinda. take a route through the redwood to a place the urban world does in the opinion at any rate. community identified mostly by its post office. hear it is. one known for hardly ever having a line. most of the time it's empty. >> most of the time. >>reporter: do you ever get lonely in here. >> no. >>reporter: lonely should be the last word to describe tl this woman. post office 9 4 5 1 6 in can i don't know serves 194 residents. in a community with no door to door delivery t.everybody picks us up their mail here you necessity all the names. >> yes, i do ivshtion allhe addresses. >> yes, i do. >>reporter: all the quirk. >> yes. >>reporter: family history. >> yes. >>reporter: all the stuff you are not supposed to know. >> yes

and reducethedeficit? by creating jobs and growing our economy. not by cutting programs that families rely on most. we need senators udall to continue to stand up for us. >> jennifer: do you think that democrats are going to feel as pressured by the unions as republicans feel pressured by grover norquist? >> organized labor is the best organized, most effective strongest arm on the left in this country. they are a great ally for the democratic party and so, of course the democrats will feel pressure from labor. they are also going to feel pressure from -- >> jennifer: are they going to compromise? >> we'll find out. the democrats aren't one party in lock step. have conservative democrats liberal democrats. so the unions can't force every democrat to do something. and there's pressure also from the middle. you said pressure from the right. pressure from the left. but there's pressure from the middle. a democratic interest group that has some swaining called third way released polling that said hey,

wants to see. it is a $4 billion package of cuts tothedeficita combination of spending cuts and new revenue and about $2 trillion of that coming from getting rid of the bush tax cuts. at the same time while getting rid of the tax cuts for the wealthiest 2% of americans letting the tax cuts for 98% of americans continue because the middle class do need the help and the wealthiest people do not. so to get there of course, and by the way let's back up, right. the president put forth his plan on november 6th and mitt romney put forth his plan and the american people said no, we don't like that romney way of going which is to continue to coddle the rich. we agree with president obama. so now the negotiations are underway. about how to avoid going off the fiscal cliff. and what is the president doing? yesterday, he met with small business leaders. at the white house. the white house met with leaders of jack lew, the chief of staff. met with leaders of the chamber of commerce. today the president is meeting with so

lot of the other issuessurroundingdeficitreductionin a fair and balanced impossible way will be a whole lot easier. if we get this wrong the economy as a plan to go south and it will be much more difficult for us to balance our budgets and deal with our deficits because if the economy is not strong that means more money is going out and things like unemployment insurance and less money is coming and. it actually makes our deficit worse. we need to get this right. i need help from the american people. close on members of congress's facebook wall used twitter. we have a few things to get done and we could get it done tomorrow. optimistically i don't think will get it done tomorrow. but if everybody here goes out of their way to make their voices heard and spread the word to your friends and family and co- workers and neighbors, i am confident we will get it done. we will get america back on track and not just heard next year but for many years to come. thank you everybody. >> (cheers & applause) >> we will see if the compromise will in fact happen. the time is 120 9 ft. an

, here's a fact. the president has on the table a proposal that reducesthedeficitby$4 trillion. that is substance. so he has not waited for people to start smelling the jet fumes at national airport. he has actively put forward a plan. >> okay. welcome back to "morning joe." welcome back. christmas is coming. >> all right. >> can you believe it? >> yeah, the christmas tree. it's looking beautiful. harold ford jr. is still with us and co-founder of the no labels organization, market mckinnon, also with us, "fortune" magazine's leigh gallagher. mark, good to see you. jeff zucker. >> a struggling -- >> taking over cnn. >> looking to jz. >> jeff zucker to run the joint. >> that would be interesting. >> smart guy if see what happens. all right. well, good, good. so how is our republican party -- so mark mckinnon, it's been a very, very rough month for you as a republican. you haven't shaved since the election. >> ah. >> you're not -- >> looking very handsome. >> you're not brushing your hair. >> well. >> your scarves look a little out of touch with the rest of your outfit like this

international and irskin bowles are amongst those scheduled to attend. half the bowlssimpsondeficitplannedand laid out own formula to save $2 trillion. it is clear republicans like his ideas which would generate $800 billion in revenue through tax reform. meanwhile so much tax reform about allowing the bush tax cuts to allow the wealthy tox expire cost $9.69 billion a day to run. estimated additional revenue from allowing the bush tax cuts to expire would generate an average of $82.4 billion a year. so the money saved would run the government for 8 and a half days, shep. >> shepard: mike emanuel live in our newsroom. warning from the white house tonight. it says americans who may do less holiday shopping this year because they are worried about possible tax hikes in january. if we do go off the cliff, the white house is predicting more serious consequences for the entire economy. a lot of details here and they are coming up inside fox report. well, just hours remain in what is expected to be the biggest online shopping day ever. the research firm core score predicts americans will spend $

cuts in any of the entitlement programs. they do wantthedeficitcuts.you can't have it all, right? >> right. well, if you look at the exit polling, most were supportive of raising rates on the rich and that has been consistent throughout this election season. i'm bullish. i don't know if it's the turkey or the drink or the redskins victory yesterday affecting me here but i'm bullish that there will be a solution. you have three dynamics here at play. you have a president who is significantly stronger, i think, speaker boehner is stronger inside of his conference. you have republican governors, people like bill kristol who seem to be saying positive things, encouraging things on tax rates which provide a permission slip for republican legislators to be supportive. and then i think the tone inside of washington is markedly different than a year and a half ago on both sides. >> it can all come down to the wording, though, robert, and one of the sticking points remains revenue versus taxes. "the new york times" reports negotiators are looking heavily at the idea of making the wealthy

, and want tax hikes and spending cuts to reducethedeficit. andone fourth want spending cuts only. 68%. there are the numbers on your screen. doesn't that number, 68%, mean that it's politically perilous for your party, republicans, to oppose raising taxes on the top 2 or 3%? >> well, no, they -- it's got to be part of the equation and i think that speaker boehner made that clear, but gregg, let me first start by saying i happen to care very much about the 43% inpoll, but it doesn't erase -- it doesn't erase the fact that a majority of them do not pay taxes and it also doesn't erase the fact that most people support tax increases on other people as opposed to themselves, but i think the american people are a little tired of polls. the election is over, talking points should be over, and it requires compromise to solve problems in this town, something that's been lacking for years. by both sides of the aisle. and so, the issues you're talking about in terms of the specifics, whether it's the tax rates or these deductions, it just cannot be across the board. there are unintended consequ

in an opinion piece this week that the president's health care reform must be includedindeficitnegotiations.>>> before you tell your kids a story of christmas, listen up. the pope is out with a new book, and it debunks a lot of details about jesus' birth. more on that later on this hour. >> here on the help desk we're talking about paying down debt and saving for the future. with me this hour are greg olson and carmen. greg, this question is for you. suzanne told us the more she spends on paying off her debt, the less she has to save. >> how do we balance between saving for the future and paying down some credit card debt? >> you know, those bills come in, and you see that debt, and your eyes just pop out of your head. >> it's an easy question, but i'm very glad she asked it because it's something that most people get wrong. unless you have an introductory rate or you're paying a sfwler 0% introductory rate and have the ability to transfer that in the future, low credit card debt rates are considered 12% right now. show me where you can get an investment that's going to net on an after tax

a handle onthedeficit. italso has a lot of people saying wait a minute. some of these decisions could really impact -- and not a good way -- have a huge impact on the poor and elderly. for ceo lloyd blankfein, he did an interview over the weekend with cbs and made the case that the social safety net programs need to be scaled back like medicare, medicaid and social security. he says people need to lower their expectations of those sboi entitlements. easy for him to say. he made about $12 million last year. i digress. he did con socede that eventual the way to raise revenue will be for the wealthy to pay a higher tax rate. david coney is talking about addressing the entitlement issue but wants a corporate tax rate of zero. no doubt that would create huge outrage. he says that's the most effective way to create jobs in the u.s. and frees up so much money for companies to hire. many would probably agree that's important, too. you can see both sides of the story there, carol. one more extreme than the other, of course. >> of course. we'll see what happens. alison kosik at the new york sto

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