I would have paid the $20 And I would have considered it a kindness from Sarah to let me know up front what kind of person she is in regards to her views on men.

It's a shame, because the guy in this story sounds like a real stand up person who wanted a relationship rather than a fling. For a lot of men, the goal of dating is not a relationship at all, and to that end paying the money would raise their chances of getting what they want eventually. Not all men, just many (before I get ripped to shreds).

He turned out to be pretty awful, so don't let the OP fool you.

I didn't include what happened after dinner, because I only wanted opinions about the dinner. But believe me when I say that he turned out to be a pretty awful date.

I would have paid the $20 And I would have considered it a kindness from Sarah to let me know up front what kind of person she is in regards to her views on men.

It's a shame, because the guy in this story sounds like a real stand up person who wanted a relationship rather than a fling. For a lot of men, the goal of dating is not a relationship at all, and to that end paying the money would raise their chances of getting what they want eventually. Not all men, just many (before I get ripped to shreds).

He turned out to be pretty awful, so don't let the OP fool you.

I didn't include what happened after dinner, because I only wanted opinions about the dinner. But believe me when I say that he turned out to be a pretty awful date.

I wonder if that was retaliatory rudeness on his part.

I doubt he was aware enough to realize what he was doing. I don't want to start discussing what happened or what they were doing. They both didn't come out looking so hot, but the dinner etiquette was something that I knew everyone here could give me answers with.

I really appreciate everyone taking the time to give me their input. If it ever gets brought up again, I can explain it to her better.

I would have paid the $20 And I would have considered it a kindness from Sarah to let me know up front what kind of person she is in regards to her views on men.

It's a shame, because the guy in this story sounds like a real stand up person who wanted a relationship rather than a fling. For a lot of men, the goal of dating is not a relationship at all, and to that end paying the money would raise their chances of getting what they want eventually. Not all men, just many (before I get ripped to shreds).

He turned out to be pretty awful, so don't let the OP fool you.

I didn't include what happened after dinner, because I only wanted opinions about the dinner. But believe me when I say that he turned out to be a pretty awful date.

I wonder if that was retaliatory rudeness on his part.

I doubt he was aware enough to realize what he was doing. I don't want to start discussing what happened or what they were doing. They both didn't come out looking so hot, but the dinner etiquette was something that I knew everyone here could give me answers with.

I really appreciate everyone taking the time to give me their input. If it ever gets brought up again, I can explain it to her better.

Now that you've got out opinions, can you tell us what happened on the rest of the date?

I would have paid the $20 And I would have considered it a kindness from Sarah to let me know up front what kind of person she is in regards to her views on men.

It's a shame, because the guy in this story sounds like a real stand up person who wanted a relationship rather than a fling. For a lot of men, the goal of dating is not a relationship at all, and to that end paying the money would raise their chances of getting what they want eventually. Not all men, just many (before I get ripped to shreds).

He turned out to be pretty awful, so don't let the OP fool you.

I didn't include what happened after dinner, because I only wanted opinions about the dinner. But believe me when I say that he turned out to be a pretty awful date.

I wonder if that was retaliatory rudeness on his part.

I doubt he was aware enough to realize what he was doing. I don't want to start discussing what happened or what they were doing. They both didn't come out looking so hot, but the dinner etiquette was something that I knew everyone here could give me answers with.

I really appreciate everyone taking the time to give me their input. If it ever gets brought up again, I can explain it to her better.

Now that you've got out opinions, can you tell us what happened on the rest of the date?

I'm glad you asked first..... because that was a real teaser and I'm dying to know now.

I would have paid the $20 And I would have considered it a kindness from Sarah to let me know up front what kind of person she is in regards to her views on men.

It's a shame, because the guy in this story sounds like a real stand up person who wanted a relationship rather than a fling. For a lot of men, the goal of dating is not a relationship at all, and to that end paying the money would raise their chances of getting what they want eventually. Not all men, just many (before I get ripped to shreds).

He turned out to be pretty awful, so don't let the OP fool you.

I didn't include what happened after dinner, because I only wanted opinions about the dinner. But believe me when I say that he turned out to be a pretty awful date.

I wonder if that was retaliatory rudeness on his part.

I doubt he was aware enough to realize what he was doing. I don't want to start discussing what happened or what they were doing. They both didn't come out looking so hot, but the dinner etiquette was something that I knew everyone here could give me answers with.

I really appreciate everyone taking the time to give me their input. If it ever gets brought up again, I can explain it to her better.

Now that you've got out opinions, can you tell us what happened on the rest of the date?

I'm glad you asked first..... because that was a real teaser and I'm dying to know now.

Haha, I'm glad you feel the same, I deliberated for ages before posting that question because I was worried I'd look too nosy. Also, by 'out opinions' I obviously mean 'our opinions'.

First, thank you, Decimus, I now want to change my screen name to Dollymop.

Back on track... FWIW, I'm about Sara's age and I don't hold the view that a first date must of course, without even the need to speak of it, include dinner, even when other non-dinner activities have been specifically agreed to. Nor do I feel that the man must automatically pay for this dinner, should it occur, just because he's the man.

That said, I don't think it's necessarily wrong of Sara to feel this way. Hey, whatever, she can believe that a true first date must include hamster races and duct tape crafts. What I think is wrong is 1) to not state her expectations upfront when the date was in the planning stages (even better, put them in her profile) and 2) to try and pressure the guy into paying when he clearly had no plan to (first clue--didn't invite her to dinner, second clue--had already eaten, third clue--spent no money on himself at the restaurant, fourth clue--did not reach for the check!).

Other posters have covered 1) pretty well, but I dislike 2) a lot as well. Like I said, I think it's fine if that's what she WANTS. But, on a first date especially, aren't people paying close attention to the other person, trying to figure out if they're compatible with each other? Especially if they've only just met online? I just think it's very rude that she ignored all the signals he was giving off that he was NOT going to pay for dinner, and tried to get him to do it anyway. It makes her seem very self-centered, like she wasn't even interested in his thoughts or beliefs about things. For me there's just something very entitled about one adult saying to another adult, practically a stranger, "Hey, aren't you going to buy this for me?!" when the other person has shown NO interest in doing so up to that point.

If she had turned him away at the door when he said he'd already eaten, I would think her less rude on that score--at least that would mean she realized he was probably not of the same fundamental attitude as her, and respected his time enough to not waste it further. From that point on it just feels to me like she was trying to see how much she could get out of him, and I don't think that's a polite attitude to take on a date.

BTW, OP, I appreciate you withholding the rest of the date story so far. In no way am I criticizing those who are curious, but I think this has been a really interesting discussion so far, and I have a feeling that if you DO post the rest of the date, the discussion is going to change completely!

There are two ways of politely dealing with who buys the meal. The old-fashioned way is that the man invites the woman, selects the venue, and pays, while the woman smiles at his choices, even if they're soda crackers and tap water for two. The new way involves more flexiblity in who can suggest where to eat, but also suggests that people are on their own for what they order.

This is pretty much how I feel, also. I don't really like it when someone expects 'traditional' behaviour from their date, but then seems to think they can act in whatever way they want. He's a mooch or a loser for not following traditional etiquette and paying for everything--but she's perfectly in the rights to drag him out to dinner?

I'd feel the same way were it a guy who expected his date to be perfectly made up and behaving in a traditionally 'ladylike' way while he honked at her from his car rather than approaching the door, and so on.

I agree that it was more than he could afford. My response was to your post suggesting that Sara was trying to get a fancy meal on someone else's dime. To her, that restaurant wasn't a fancy one and she also ordered on the low side. She probably thought she was being a good date.

I agree she "thought" it. But she's terribly naive, if she thought she was being a good date by demanding to be fed, and ignoring all cues from her date that it was more than he could afford. What is a cheap meal for some people is a month's free cash for others.

She seems to feel that, "Oh, I'm not interested in whether my date is rich, I'm very non-materialistic," but then assumes that all men must be at least on her financial level, with oodles of cash to spare on impressing her. She will have to learn that this is not always, or even often, true.

Logged

My cousin's memoir of love and loneliness while raising a child with multiple disabilities will be out on Amazon soon! Know the Night, by Maria Mutch, has been called "full of hope, light, and companionship for surviving the small hours of the night."

I've been reading with interest, as I've returned to dating after a 27 year respite.

I enjoy meals out, especially since I am not an inspired cook. The last few dates I had, though, I carried cash with me, and at least offered to help with the bill. My offer was declined each time. We were vocal and clear about what activities were included in the date. My online profile is straightforward enough to state, "If you're looking for a buxom woman, I'll save you some time. I'm not."

I have no hard-and-fast rule that first dates must include dinner, though. Sometimes my initial detective work has been less than stellar. If I have questions I may just meet for coffee. Spending an entire afternoon with someone old enough to date my mother was just awkward.

I'm a bit horrified by Sara. If I were her date, I'd thank my lucky stars that she revealed her personality so quickly.

Even if you genuinely believe that men should pay on dates, it's incredibly rude to explicitly ask them to and not even offer to pay. And, if you're the only one who ate, I think you should expect to pay and insist on it, even if your date wants to.

Sara is older than I am and has been on a thousand more dates than I have, so I don't usually give her dating advice.

The most recent thing I have heard about her online dating is that she has found someone she really likes. They have gone out a few times now. The very first time they met, they agreed to meet at a local restaurant. She told me that she asked him who was paying for it even before they ordered. I had to laugh.

I thought this was interesting - I told Sara's story to a group of friends. I got to the part where the check came and Sara looked at the guy, waiting for him to take it, and the woman in my group immediately said "Oh no, that's so rude!" After I finished the story, the two men didn't care whether Sara outright asked her date to pay. One guy said "he clearly didn't like her or he would have grabbed the check right away" and the other indicated that if he had been the date, he probably would have paid (to avoid the awkwardness) but not considered a second date.

In my own dating history - on first dates (where the guy asked me out), I always offered to split the check. It was a holdover from being a poor student, but this was well into my early 30s. I found that the guys who accepted the offer to split the check never asked for a second date. Guys who insisted on paying the whole tab were the ones who were interested.

I thought this was interesting - I told Sara's story to a group of friends. I got to the part where the check came and Sara looked at the guy, waiting for him to take it, and the woman in my group immediately said "Oh no, that's so rude!" After I finished the story, the two men didn't care whether Sara outright asked her date to pay. One guy said "he clearly didn't like her or he would have grabbed the check right away" and the other indicated that if he had been the date, he probably would have paid (to avoid the awkwardness) but not considered a second date.

In my own dating history - on first dates (where the guy asked me out), I always offered to split the check. It was a holdover from being a poor student, but this was well into my early 30s. I found that the guys who accepted the offer to split the check never asked for a second date. Guys who insisted on paying the whole tab were the ones who were interested.

I can see that but I can also see her behavior up to that point being the sole reason they were not intersted. KWIM?

I thought this was interesting - I told Sara's story to a group of friends. I got to the part where the check came and Sara looked at the guy, waiting for him to take it, and the woman in my group immediately said "Oh no, that's so rude!" After I finished the story, the two men didn't care whether Sara outright asked her date to pay. One guy said "he clearly didn't like her or he would have grabbed the check right away" and the other indicated that if he had been the date, he probably would have paid (to avoid the awkwardness) but not considered a second date.

In my own dating history - on first dates (where the guy asked me out), I always offered to split the check. It was a holdover from being a poor student, but this was well into my early 30s. I found that the guys who accepted the offer to split the check never asked for a second date. Guys who insisted on paying the whole tab were the ones who were interested.

Interesting because that was my experience and attitude as well. I always used to offer to pay my own way, if only to avoid the sense that the guy was then 'entitled' to anythingt afterwards. The offer was accepted sometimes, but I never saw those guys again. The BEST one I remember was the guy who waited till I went to the loo, called for the cheque and then waited till I got backl. He then said, 'I know you'd rather pay your way, and that's fine. But I'd really like it if you let me buy you dinner.' I thought that, in terms of managing my need for independence and his desire to take care of me, he managed an elegant solution. We went out for some time after that, though I then left the country.

I also recounted this to friends and all - male and female - thought Sara was incredibly rude. All anecodal, clearly. Also, my male friends generally said that they wouldn't ask a woman on a second date if she hadn't at least offered to pay.