On 20/02/2013 Fizz wrote:>On 20/02/2013 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:>>>>>Yep, gushing the propaganda you quoted earlier from Parry O'feral.>>Read his diatribe again if you wish, but this time with your critical>>faculties working overtime...>>☻>>So you can not put forward any evidence.>Sad that all you can do is attack character without presenting fact.

No.
I read your link.
It is propaganda in my opinion.
There is no character attack here. You make your own judgement, as I have done.
We disagree.
Time will tell who was more correct in their reading of the situation.>

On 20/02/2013 Fizz wrote:>On 20/02/2013 White Trash wrote:>>>where is ur evidence?>>read previous posts before posting maybe, even try google if you really>need to be informed.>

i did

where is ur evidence that>If you actually take the time to read the NSW government media release it mentions that they have investigated the Vic and SA programmes to set up a similar system.
is correct?
propaganda is one thing but implementing the outcome of a investigation is another?

On 20/02/2013 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:>On 20/02/2013 Fizz wrote:>>On 20/02/2013 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:>>>>>>>>Yep, gushing the propaganda you quoted earlier from Parry O'feral.>>>Read his diatribe again if you wish, but this time with your critical>>>faculties working overtime...>>>☻>>>>So you can not put forward any evidence.>>Sad that all you can do is attack character without presenting fact.>>No.>I read your link.>It is propaganda in my opinion.>There is no character attack here. You make your own judgement, as I have>done.>We disagree.>Time will tell who was more correct in their reading of the situation.>>

You could be genteel and let time tell who is correct; or you could just duel; at dawn; with long arms; at 200 paces. May the best eye win;)

Wow, Fizz - you really add a bit of your own spin to their spin when you quote the Government saying how great it is . . . though they don't actually say it is a similar system to Vic or SA, simply that they had a look at their systems . . .
To get an license does not need any of that stuff you mentioned, membership to a hunting organisation, a bit of research and an open-book test, and then book in to go shooting, according to the Game Council . . .

Just on a side-note I'd be interested in your opinion on the proposal to allow sport climbers to control the number of sport climbs in mixed/trad areas .. . .?

>What is being instigated is controlled cull of feral animals, similar>to the practice which has removed 4000 feral goats from the Murray-Sunset>NP.

No, that is not what is being instigated. What is being proposed is access to National Parks to amateur shooters, with the ostensible benefit of feral animal control.There is no targeted campaign to remove a particular species from a particular area, this is general access to shooters. I believe the "benefit" will not be realised, and it has a number of downsides which are unacceptable.

>To be able to take part in such shoots, of which there are only 23 people>that participate in the above mentioned example.

I have no problem with controlled shooting by professionals in a carefully targetted campaign

>Shooters must pass an>accreditation program consisting of map reading, navigation, firearm safety,>wildlife appreciation, 4WD and ‘living-in-the-field’ courses. They must>also pass map proficiency and shooting accuracy tests. I would like to>see someone pass a shooting accuracy test who has never fired a rifle.

As I understand it, there is not even a vision component to the "test", so even visually impaired people could potentially be hunting in the parks. Gun clubs and archery clubs are amongst those now "accredited" to conduct the tests, which are open book. How stringent a testing program will it be when the Bega Valley Traditional Archers conduct their exams?

>If you actually take the time to read the NSW government media release it mentions that they have investigated the Vic and SA programmes to set up a similar system.

Please google "hunting accident Victoria" and read some of the results. Under no circumstances do I want this for NSW.

I am against this proposal because:

1) The whole premise is a political move - Barry O'Farrell want to sell off state owned power assets, and the only way they could do that is by giving in to the Shooter's Party. This is not about the environment or culling animals, it is about the government getting its hands on sorely needed cash.
2) National Parks are a place for preserving wildlife and natural beauty and for all the people of Australia to enjoy in its natural state. Hunting will significantly affect this enjoyment. There are already suggestions from hunters that as hunters wear fluoro, perhaps the general public should do as well when in National Parks!
3) Amateur hunting in parks is dangerous. People will get killed by accident.
4) It won't achieve the publicly stated aim of feral animal control. Recreational shooters will have a negligible effect on culling feral species. In fact, all the evidence shows that amateur hunters worsen the feral animal problem by deliberately introducing "game" to areas, they preserve breeding stock, they loose hunting dogs who go feral, etc. I think this is a small minority of hunters who behave like this - but the net effect is negative to the environment.
5) Inevitably native fauna will be killed by hunters, as well as ferals
6) It will cost millions - O'Farrell is already talking about many millions of dollars he intends to pour into this "program". Far better that money went into a proper feral animal reduction program run by professionals.

Fizz - I don't expect you will be swayed by any rational argument, most people only argue to reinforce their prejudices. But in case I'm wrong, have a read of Tim Vollmer's very well argued case on Fatcanyoners http://fatcanyoners.org/2012/05/31/hunting-in-national-park/ - for anyone else interested in this debate, he has presented a very compelling case there, together with a number of practical actions you can take to try to prevent this from happening.

On 20/02/2013 Climboholic wrote:>I agree egosan. There are some people arguing on this forum that took>an anti-gun stance by default and are never going to change their minds,>regardless of the arguments presented.

I would say that most of us were already anti-gun or pro-gun before this issue came along and that some of us feel very strongly about guns in both directions. It isn't just the anti-gun people who had pre-existing commitments.

On 21/02/2013 billk wrote:>>I would say that most of us were already anti-gun or pro-gun before this>issue came along and that some of us feel very strongly about guns in both>directions. It isn't just the anti-gun people who had pre-existing commitments.>

I'm not anti-gun or pro-gun. From this perspective I think that the shooters argue feral animal control because they want to shoot in national parks for enjoyment. The dissenters will oppose it regardless of any controls put in place or inadvertent benefits to feral animal control.

Has anyone noticed the parallels between this debate and the bolting war? I now realise that, on occasion, I have taken the default anti-bolting position, regardless of the subtleties of the issue.

I walked the Washpool Walk for the first time the other day. Raining. No one there, except a lyrebird that i think was telling me to Piss Off! Late in the arvo, finished in the dark, I was meals on wheels for the leaches and probably a few dropped off when they got full. I was feeling good, relaxed, not a worry in the world........until i thought mmmmm, raining, not many people around, good time to go shooting 'cause there will be less people around, maybe it was a wrong move to wear that Bullwinkle J. Mouse hat that i just bought in Nimbin. I'd rather not have to think about hunters, when i'm enjoying nature.

The fat canyoners link reinforces what eveyone knows i.e. that hunters release ferals into the bush so they've more things to shoot. In over 20 years of hiking in the popular and more remote parts of Morton NP I don't recall seeing a rabbit let alone pigs, etc. I guess this will change when hunting's allowed.

On 21/02/2013 bobic wrote:> In over 20 years of hiking in the popular and more remote parts of Morton NP I don't>recall seeing a rabbit let alone pigs, etc. I guess this will change when>hunting's allowed.

I have seen feral goats and sheep in the Shoalhaven Gorge. In fact National Parks used to close that section of the Morton for a few weeks every year or two, so they could cull the goats.