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Re: Kisame & Itachi vs 3 Sannin

That cant be used as proof tbh
Itachi vs Jiraiya from what weve seen should atleast be a 50/50.

Originally Posted by njt

K:あなたなら どうにかこうにかやれる相手でもわたしじゃあわかりませんよ。。。 次元が違う
You might be able to handle him, but I don't think I could... He's above my level.

I:ああ。。。 やり合えば二人共殺されるか
良くて相打ちというところ
Yeah, if we went up against him we'd both get killed, or at best a draw.

。。。たとえ人数を増やしたとしても変わらないだろう
It probably wouldn't matter if we went in with more people or not.

K:ラーメン屋で やっと見付けたはいいが。。。 お守りが あの〝伝説の三人〟とは
We're lucky to have found him(naruto) at the ramen shop, but for him to be protected by one of the "legendary three"...

彼が相手では〝木の葉のうちは一族〟も 〝霧の忍刀七人衆〟の名も かすんでしまう
His name would take the spotlight from both the names of "Konoha Uchiha clan" and "Seven ninja swordsmen of the mist".

I:ああ。。。 しかし。。。
Yeah... However...

どんな強者にも弱点というのがあるものだ。。。
No matter how strong the opponent is, there's always a weakness...

Kisame thinks Itachi can take Jiraiya

Kisame thinks he cannot take Jiraiya himself

Itachi think that together they cannot take Jiraiya

Itachi think that even if back-up arrived they could not take Jiraiya

It is weird to say the manga cannot be used as proof of the manga. Given that Itachi is a pro at calm analysis of a situation, I trust his position on his own abilities more than I trust Kisame's position on Itachi's abilities. What we have here is a situation where Kisame thinks Kisame cannot win, and Itachi thinks that Itachi cannot win, etc. This is not looking good, especially when Itachi thinks the best they can do is a mutual strike down. Sannin for the win.

Re: Kisame & Itachi vs 3 Sannin

Originally Posted by chilibun

Lol... because you always need to put things into context. Itachi is an ally of Konoha and he had every intention of avoiding a fight with them. He's also shown to lie in many instances. Itachi has shown a lot of abilities that the Sanin's have no counters for. If your only argument is that quote then you've pretty much already made up your mind and no amount of ability comparisons is going to convince you. I just hope you don't think Tobi didn't have anything to do with Kyuubi's attack because he said so.

This doesn't add much because he was certainly willing to:

kill his own clan

torture his own brother

sacrifice Naruto to Sasuke

lure jiraiya away from Naruto for capture

let Kisame shave Naruto, kidnap Naruto

order Kisame to kill Asuma and Kurenai

Itachi was always willing to make sacrifices, why assume that he would not have been willing to sacrifice Jiraiya on that long-ass list just because you dislike what he said?

The Kurama issue is a clearly exposed lie at this point, not a valid comparison. There is no debate around that matter, at all. Manga lie is manga lie.

Re: Kisame & Itachi vs 3 Sannin

Originally Posted by jaymizzo

The third hokage was praised to be the strongest Kage, now tell me, do you actually believe he is? After what we have seen from other Kages?

Yes I do believe he is.

From what we have seen Hiruzen has shown to be weak in comparison to other ninjas. Yet while being well past his prime he defeated the 1st and 2nd Hokage and sent Orochimaru fleeing. What other Kage can claim such a feat?

Even if you don't agree with that logic, Itachi and Kisame mutually agree that they wouldn't defeat him. Enough said. Fight over. Sannin Victory.

Re: Kisame & Itachi vs 3 Sannin

I'm as big of a Jiraya fanboy as they come, but I really can't see how he's supposed to beat Itachi and Kisame at the same time. Those quotes have been used time and time and time and time again, and sure, they seem pretty fool proof. However, there are some things to take into consideration.

#1 Kishi's troll sense of strength relations in the manga. Hiruzen was supposed to be the strongest hokage and 'the Professor' and 'God amongst shinobi', but lately we've been told that Hashrirama was thought to be second to only the RS himself. Kishi seems to have changed his mind time and time again throughout the manga.

#2 Itachi and Kisame's statements were made in PART 1 of the manga, thus we have no clue whether or not Itachi was as strong as he has been portrayed in part 2. The biggest question here is of course whether or not he had access to Susanoo and the legendary artifacts at this point in time. The timeskip was a full 3 YEARS, during the course of which he could easily have gathered the artifacts.

We have no way of knowning if he had access to Susanoo in part 1. It can be argued that since Sasuke was able to awaken Susanoo relatively quickly after he awakened his MS, Itachi would also have done so, however Sasuke was put into a series of manipulated incidents specifically made to quickly evolve his MS.

I mean, Itachi had his MS for YEARS without loosing his eyesight, yet Sasuke lost his after what, a month? Sasuke had obviously used his MS WAY, WAY more than Itachi ever did, and I think it's safe to assume, that Itachi's MS progress was therefore slower than Sasuke's.

I think that it is entirely possible that Itachi didn't have access to Susanoo, or at least not the legendary artifacts, during part 1, which would definately cause Jiraya to become an entirely more threatning opponent.

Re: Kisame & Itachi vs 3 Sannin

Then please explain to us in detail how Jiraiya is going to deafeat those two guys at once... or even Itachi solo.

But let me gues:

Thus you are simply believing blindly into some claims that where made, even though all actual evidence is pointing towards the complete opposite.

It isn't a blind belief in a claim, it comes from the relevant sources themselves, it isn't like Moegi said it without any idea of who the people are. At a minimum, (1) Kisame said Kisame cannot win, and (2) Itachi said Itachi cannot win, and (3) Itachi thinks they cannot win as a team.

Even if you think they can win, which is fine, it is a manga fact that they do not think they can win individually, and Itachi doesn't think they can win as a team. Who is the one with blind beliefs despite what he is actually told in the manga?

Re: Kisame & Itachi vs 3 Sannin

I continue to believe the match could go either way, I've already stated the reasons why. But, I'd just like to point out for the sake of the argument that the conditions of the match include Itachi being healthy, free from his illness, something that affected my decision to make it a toss-up. His illness significantly affected his abilities, especially his stamina, in the conflicts we witnessed, it also affected his eyesight as he was considered to be nearly blind. That would mean that Itachi is superior to what he actually was in the manga. Once again this is just for the sake of the discussion, it seems to be something a few people have forgotten.

With this power-up, because that essentially is what it is, Itachi and Kisame vs the Sannin could go either way.

Re: Kisame & Itachi vs 3 Sannin

Originally Posted by Impossibility

I continue to believe the match could go either way, I've already stated the reasons why. But, I'd just like to point out for the sake of the argument that the conditions of the match include Itachi being healthy, free from his illness, something that affected my decision to make it a toss-up. His illness significantly affected his abilities, especially his stamina, in the conflicts we witnessed, it also affected his eyesight as he was considered to be nearly blind. That would mean that Itachi is superior to what he actually was in the manga. Once again this is just for the sake of the discussion, it seems to be something a few people have forgotten.

With this power-up, because that essentially is what it is, Itachi and Kisame vs the Sannin could go either way.

Even if Itachi's illness is removed, it does not necessarily increase his stamina. The datebooks reveal that Itachi was a low-stamina character. There is no indication his illness brought his stamina stat lower, or that his illness lowered his already low stamina, imo. In making him healthy, I take it to mean he won't be kneeling over coughing up tons of blood, and that he has his vision, nothing more. I do not take it to mean he has increased stamina, and thus increased chakra capacity.

Itachi was always willing to make sacrifices, why assume that he would not have been willing to sacrifice Jiraiya on that long-ass list just because you dislike what he said?

The Kurama issue is a clearly exposed lie at this point, not a valid comparison. There is no debate around that matter, at all. Manga lie is manga lie.

1) killed to them to PROTECT Konoha
2) tortured Sasuke to give him motivation to get stronger through hate
3,4,5) who gives a shit about Naruto. Heck, if he dies, Akatsuki's plans just got delayed for whatever amount of years it takes the Kyuubi to regenerate
6) yet, everybody is alive and no harm is done. We've already seen Itachi capable of taking out superior opponents in mere seconds ie: Oro and Deidara

You obviously failed to understand my point. There are always going to be things said by people that aren't going to be absolute truths. You need learn to read between the lines. There is plenty of evidence of Itachi's power surpassing that of Jiraiya, Oro, and Tsunada. Even if you hold his quote to be the truthful, he could have simply underestimated himself and Kisame, or overestimated Jiraiya. Its not going to be the first time that happens either. I'm sure Oro didn't go into battle with Itachi thinking he was going to lose, yet he got owned every time. Ee thought he had a superior Lariat than Bee and he got owned. Battle and ability feats trump any random one liner as far as I'm concerned. And Itachi has shown much more power than any Sannin.

Re: Kisame & Itachi vs 3 Sannin

Itachi can disagree all he wants... that doesn't make it any more believable when everything else we've actually seen tells a different story.

If Itachi told you he's a two headed ogre with purple skin and blonde pigtails, would you take that as a 100% fact too? Even though your eyes are telling you something else?

If thats so then have fun with that... I'll prefer to use logic and make myself a picture and form an opinion by taking into account everything else that happened, because words can be deceiving, actions not.

Re: Kisame & Itachi vs 3 Sannin

Originally Posted by jdw

Even if Itachi's illness is removed, it does not necessarily increase his stamina. The datebooks reveal that Itachi was a low-stamina character. There is no indication his illness brought his stamina stat lower, or that his illness lowered his already low stamina, imo. In making him healthy, I take it to mean he won't be kneeling over coughing up tons of blood, and that he has his vision, nothing more. I do not take it to mean he has increased stamina, and thus increased chakra capacity.

Fatal illnesses typically have a number of effects on the body. People don't just cough up blood, if there's nothing physically wrong with their bodies. There are a host of symptoms that would accompany any fatal condition. Loss of stamina, strength and speed are all reasonable assumptions to make with an individual suffering from such a serious condition.

Re: Kisame & Itachi vs 3 Sannin

There are always going to be things said by people that aren't going to be absolute truths. You need learn to read between the lines.

I have no need to read between the lines because I have no reason to believe Itachi would lie.

Originally Posted by chilibun

There is plenty of evidence of Itachi's power surpassing that of Jiraiya, Oro, and Tsunada.

Evidence or opinion?

Originally Posted by chilibun

Even if you hold his quote to be the truthful, he could have simply underestimated himself and Kisame, or overestimated Jiraiya.

Problem I have with that though is that Itachi and Kisame not only mutually agreed, Itachi also stated that even if they had reinforcements the result would be the same. This to me shows that Itachi had a good knowledge of Jiraiya to make an accusation like that.

Re: Kisame & Itachi vs 3 Sannin

Originally Posted by Impossibility

Fatal illnesses typically have a number of effects on the body. People don't just cough up blood, if there's nothing physically wrong with their bodies. There are a host of symptoms that would accompany any fatal condition. Loss of stamina, strength and speed are all reasonable assumptions to make with an individual suffering from such a serious condition.

It is reasonable, yes, I agree. It might be a symptom, it might not be. Since it is unknown, there is no basis to provide free stamina and thus free chakra, imo. We can address the known symptoms and move on.