This place is worse than an Indian bus after sun down. It's like some of you have this visceral reaction of "that fucking worthless whore deserved it" whenever you hear the word rape.

In regards to the article, this is all I needed to read right here: "Irvin walked free, not because he did the right thing and refused to have sex with a 17-year-old. He testified that he wanted to have intercourse with her but couldn't".

Of course there is a degree of speculation to this, and I know the hackneyed, knee-jerk arguments defense attorneys spit out (especially when the case is bad). I was an assistant public defender. If there is one thing public defenders get experience in, it's taking loser cases to trial and crossing your fingers. I'm not Clarence Darrow, but I have a decent feel for when a case is desperate.

If you're the defendant, and you're testifying that you WANTED to have sex with the victim in a rape trial, you're in a bad fucking spot. Why would he state that? Again speculation, but my guess is pretty damning evidence against him.

He was stuck in a fully extended armbar, and got out with the hitch hike escape.

Timothyk - Do you really think this girl went over to hang out with a bunch of dudes, and not have sex with any of them? Do you know how many girls have trains run on them? Or like to be hit while fucked? Or lie about rape to soothe parent anger?

So this guy is put in a bad situation at a party when he is 20 and most likely drinking. he deflects his way out of participating, and then seems to have cooperated with authorities, I assume he also completed any sentencing requirements for any other charges. Meaning he has served any time for any crime that he was guilty of, in my eyes he is a free man. According to the judge society is repaid.

Now, possibly as a result of what he personally seen happen to women, he teaches them how to protect themselves. And you guys jump all over his shit, before hearing his side of a 20yr old story.

Call me a jerkoff but there shouldnt be ANY tolerance or rationalization of this kind of shit.

Rape, child molesting, all forms of deviant sexuality.

Its not "oh a mistake". Its ruining someone for life.

Sometimes the victims themselves forgive the perpetrator, even in cases where the perp refuses to admit guilt. I've often questioned how satisfying or empowering THAT can really be; but in cases where the perp admits to wrong-doing, and shows repentance, showing forgiveness can help achieve mental health again.

But there are victims who don't forgive anything, yet can simply move on by their own will---"That which does not kill me makes me stronger." But of course just saying this, as opposed to actually carrying it out, are entirely different things.

No doubt many people are "ruined" by sexual abuse, and only a low percentage of people in reality manage to overcome it. But some are able to, and they show something important about the human condition.

alkysmurf -
So this guy is put in a bad situation at a party when he is 20 and most likely drinking. he deflects his way out of participating, and then seems to have cooperated with authorities, I assume he also completed any sentencing requirements for any other charges. Meaning he has served any time for any crime that he was guilty of, in my eyes he is a free man. According to the judge society is repaid.

Now, possibly as a result of what he personally seen happen to women, he teaches them how to protect themselves. And you guys jump all over his shit, before hearing his side of a 20yr old story.

This. Interesting how most of the posters that are calling for his head are also cracking jokes about it here and on other threads.

What would you guys have him do? Should he shut down his business, where he has probably helped thousands of people?

alkysmurf - So this guy is put in a bad situation at a party when he is 20 and most likely drinking. he deflects his way out of participating, and then seems to have cooperated with authorities, I assume he also completed any sentencing requirements for any other charges. Meaning he has served any time for any crime that he was guilty of, in my eyes he is a free man. According to the judge society is repaid.

Now, possibly as a result of what he personally seen happen to women, he teaches them how to protect themselves. And you guys jump all over his shit, before hearing his side of a 20yr old story.

You have a good point

Should he disclose his past to potential rape prevention participants?

Maybe now he can start seminars with a dramatic recounting of his ordeal 20 years ago. He was probably pressured by all the guys there to join in.

It's not fair for him that the actions of the students have tarnished his sterling. But maybe just some clarification is needed about this old case

Here's a quote: "At one point, one of the men talked about how easy it would be to toss the slightly built, 5-foot-2-inch woman over the balcony. She said she was watching television when one of the men asked her to step into the bedroom so he could talk to her.

The woman said that man and a friend began pulling her clothes off and forcing her onto the bed. She said one man had oral sex with her while the other had sexual intercourse with her.

"I couldn't breathe and I couldn't understand why they were doing this to me," she said.

Other men came in and raped her repeatedly, she said. After the group left, Gatling and Irvin came in and closed the door behind them, she said.

"I was lying on the bed crying," the woman testified, maintaining her composure. "I was trying to figure out what I was going to do."

At that point, she said, Irvin began having sexual intercourse with her while Gatling held her down and forced her to have oral sex with him. The girl said she did not cry out for help because she was afraid one of the men might follow through with the threat to throw her off the balcony."

alkysmurf -
So this guy is put in a bad situation at a party when he is 20 and most likely drinking. he deflects his way out of participating, and then seems to have cooperated with authorities, I assume he also completed any sentencing requirements for any other charges. Meaning he has served any time for any crime that he was guilty of, in my eyes he is a free man. According to the judge society is repaid.

Now, possibly as a result of what he personally seen happen to women, he teaches them how to protect themselves. And you guys jump all over his shit, before hearing his side of a 20yr old story.

This. Interesting how most of the posters that are calling for his head are also cracking jokes about it here and on other threads.

What would you guys have him do? Should he shut down his business, where he has probably helped thousands of people?

This sounds like a utilitarian kind of argument---the calculus of weighing goods---and I don't think it's insane, but don't you think it ignores a significant dimension of moral demands as they are *in practice*? Don't we need, in reality, a verbal confession before we accept services rendered (Lloyd running a school) as payment for the crime?

2Jupes said it well. The legal dimension is what it is, but Lloyd shouldn't expect to skirt by in the public eye. The hell to pay THERE cannot be argued away slick-willy fashion, and fake confessions rarely work (except in white collar crime, where politicians ride on the fact that money is, compared to flesh, abstract, and so can confess to "mistakes" and expect to get a pass).

"A third defendant, 23-year-old Robert A. Ford, was scheduled to be tried this morning in Circuit Court for rape, but Kerns said prosecutors decided to drop the charge after talking with the victim's father last week by telephone from Ohio.

Kerns said he was told the woman had said in a family meeting July 30 that she remembered Ford being in the room while she was being attacked, but she could not say positively whether he participated."

"The woman - who weighed 98 pounds at the time of the attack - said she drank a small amount of Southern Comfort liquor at the apartment.

After a while, she said, Thompson invited her into Gatling's bedroom. She said Smith was already in there, sitting on the floor.

Within minutes, she said, both men sexually attacked her. Soon, she said, others poured into the room and began raping and sodomizing her. One man slapped her when she bit him; another punched her after she wriggled free enough to push him away.

The woman said she fell asleep after the attack ended in the early morning. She said Gatling drove her back to campus, and she contacted police that evening after getting in touch with her mother and a friend on campus.

In April 1990, Gatling was convicted of sodomy and sentenced to seven years in prison. In the same trial, Lloyd E. Irvin Jr. was acquitted.

In March of this year, Derrick C. Evans, another Bowie State student, was convicted of attempted rape. He was later sentenced to five years in prison."

The girl testified in every case, too. That's some strength right there. Mostly what stops victims from coming forward in the first place is the fear and humiliation involved in testifying (the defense will try to paint the victim as a whore every time).

Here's a quote: "At one point, one of the men talked about how easy it would be to toss the slightly built, 5-foot-2-inch woman over the balcony. She said she was watching television when one of the men asked her to step into the bedroom so he could talk to her.

The woman said that man and a friend began pulling her clothes off and forcing her onto the bed. She said one man had oral sex with her while the other had sexual intercourse with her.

"I couldn't breathe and I couldn't understand why they were doing this to me," she said.

Other men came in and raped her repeatedly, she said. After the group left, Gatling and Irvin came in and closed the door behind them, she said.

"I was lying on the bed crying," the woman testified, maintaining her composure. "I was trying to figure out what I was going to do."

At that point, she said, Irvin began having sexual intercourse with her while Gatling held her down and forced her to have oral sex with him. The girl said she did not cry out for help because she was afraid one of the men might follow through with the threat to throw her off the balcony."

Brutal.

Testimony like this, channeled through an old news outlet, is of course worth nothing and anyone disturbed by it should consult the Master before passing judgment. After all, we weren't there and the whole thing was probably a silly misunderstanding.

alkysmurf -
So this guy is put in a bad situation at a party when he is 20 and most likely drinking. he deflects his way out of participating, and then seems to have cooperated with authorities, I assume he also completed any sentencing requirements for any other charges. Meaning he has served any time for any crime that he was guilty of, in my eyes he is a free man. According to the judge society is repaid.

Now, possibly as a result of what he personally seen happen to women, he teaches them how to protect themselves. And you guys jump all over his shit, before hearing his side of a 20yr old story.

This. Interesting how most of the posters that are calling for his head are also cracking jokes about it here and on other threads.

What would you guys have him do? Should he shut down his business, where he has probably helped thousands of people?

This sounds like a utilitarian kind of argument---the calculus of weighing goods---and I don't think it's insane, but don't you think it ignores a significant dimension of moral demands as they are *in practice*? Don't we need, in reality, a verbal confession before we accept services rendered (Lloyd running a school) as payment for the crime?

2Jupes said it well. The legal dimension is what it is, but Lloyd shouldn't expect to skirt by in the public eye. The hell to pay THERE cannot be argued away slick-willy fashion, and fake confessions rarely work (except in white collar crime, where politicians ride on the fact that money is, compared to flesh, abstract, and so can confess to "mistakes" and expect to get a pass).

Ok, so you think if Lloyd came out and publicly apologized and said...

he was absolutely sorry for what he had done, he's not that person, and he's tried to do everything he can since then to help people (which from the outside it looks like he has done in many respects), you'd would what, forgive him?

Or does he need to shut down his business? Go to prison? What's the end result with all this? How would he best resolve it, if not in what he has actually done by helping people?

"Michael P. Thompson and Charles H. Smith Jr., both of whom were 18-year-old freshmen at Bowie State University in Maryland at the time of the October 1989 attack, were identified by the victim in court Monday as the initiators of a night of violence and repeated sexual assaults.

Following two days of testimony, a Circuit Court jury of 10 women and two men deliberated an hour and a half before finding Smith and Thompson guilty of all charges. Jurors recommended a sentence of five years in prison on each conviction."

Jason Reinhardt - this dissapoints me. (if true) However, college kids do some realy really dumb shit, and if this did happen, i am sure Lloyd regrets its terribly. Think about this everyone: First of all, let me say this...I do not condone or even think this kind of thing is the least bit funny nor do i take it lightly. it actually discusts me. (just remember, yes, certain girls do sometimes place themselves in compromising situations and some may say "they asked for it" I don't personally believe any woman "asked for it". Here's what i want to get accross.... just remember, these party girls are someones daughter, someones sister, someones granddaughter ect..., and should be respected as such. If Lloyed was involved in something like this, think of all what he's given back to society. Think of all the kids lives he's touched and changed. Think of all the positive motivation and adult lives he's changed through jiujitsu and martial arts. We have all done stupid shit at one time or another. Some worse than others. That story sickens me. It really does. i have heard Lloyd is a good man today as a MAN, (not a college kid) I sure hope it's not true. But if it is, i try and look at how Lloyd leads his lie now, as opposed to some college "party kid". Lloyd contributes a lot to society in helping improve and touch lives. Perhaps he said to himself, "i have to give back for the mistakes i made"? who knows.

All the "I bet he regrets it" shit is interesting, but how do you reconcile that with the more recent events. Two of his students doing something similar, but worse.

Just a coincidence?With that sort of luck, I wouldn't let any women I cared about go anywhere near LI.

He just seems "unlucky" I guess.

And I love the use of the standard line of apologists "I don't condone it but..."

No buts! As has been pointed out, any guy with a shred of decency would have said something to his buddies & if that didn't work leave the house (not try get a boner while your mate is getting head).

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