Well the reason I used it as the acid test is I think that anyone who can hit a high C who is still calling themselves a baritone is underestimating themselves by any standard you care to choose. I mean, I know I said that operatic vocalising doesn't necessarily translate well over to other styles, but there is a definite reason why C5 is considered the money note for operatic tenors. If you can hit notes up in the fifth octave as you're saying, and your teacher doesn't think you're a tenor, in addition to the points about her understanding of passagio and vocal subtypes, you might want to consider looking for a new one.

I wouldn't mind listening to your vocal samples, though like I said to Thiestru I can't claim anything in the way of professional expertise.

_________________"What do I know of cultured ways, the gilt, the craft and the lie?I, who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky.The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;Rush in and die, dogs--I was a man before I was a king." - R. Howard

Edit: Before any of you tenors claim to have sung a G1 or whatever, consider for a moment that these octavists are singing with an entire choir over them. Your fried-to-hell low notes are merely the overtones of an actual bass note.

Thiestru, I don't think you're bragging intentionally, but given the choice between accepting that you're a miracle of nature, and that you might have unintentionally made some kind of error when calculating your range, reason compels me to fully explore the latter possibility before accepting the former, I hope you can understand where I'm coming from. And don't worry about me being overly critical of your performance, I don't really have the space to be (I can record a performance of myself if you're interested, though I can gaurantee poor quality. My familiarity with the mechanics of vocal performance is mostly down to the standard information that gets taught to composition students about range and singability plus personal curiosity).

I understand your skepticism, but choose your words more carefully. 'Miracle of nature'? In what way did I even imply such a thing? There's nothing miraculous about being able to hit such a note; as I said, it took some work, and work is what I put into it. And frankly, there's nothing mysterious about determining what notes I'm hitting. I've been a guitarist for quite a while, and it's a simple matter of matching the notes my voice is producing with the corresponding notes on a fretboard. But whatever, I'll record something in the next few days and let you judge for yourself. I'm not really sure what kind of thing I should record. The easiest thing, of course, would just be to start at a low note and slide up to my highest, so I may just do that. But again I warn you: don't expect mindblowing awesomeness. =P

Apologies if you feel I'm being overly defensive. You don't know me, obviously, so skepticism is the natural (and usually proper) response. But I wouldn't claim such a thing unless it was true, and you'll just have to take my word for it, at least for the time being. ^_^

The discussion on vocal classification is an interesting one, and I've read a little bit about it myself. I can't really add much to it though, since I'm no expert. As for the 'standard' system, I guess myself to be a baritone naturally, which I think might explain why my high notes always sound quite thin. But maybe that can be improved by real training.

No subtypes of baritone singers? You've probably misunderstood what she meant, or else she's obviously not very knowledgeable and you should probably be looking for another singing teacher. Passagio notes aren't different, as in that every signing person in the world possesses exactly the same passagio? That thought is so incredibly retarded that I again I think you've misunderstood her meaning. There are probably bass singers whose passagio is lower than some tenors' lowest chest notes.

I know these things sound weird, but this is exactly how it went. She tried to convince me that there aren't really any types within the baritone vocal type and that a tenor would have the same passagio notes as me.

All the other things she teaches about are probably right though - I've chatted with other vocal teachers online and they gave me the same information basically. It's just the vocal type and passagio thing I'm doubting her knowledge about.

Oh and she did mistake me for a low tenor on my first lesson. She denied having said that later though.

Thanks Colin! That was actually a very easy process. I approve of this site. =]

My demo for you guys is me singing along with the last two verses of Fates Warning's 'Quietus'. Now before we begin, let me just acknowledge a couple of things. The highest note I hit in this recording is not an A5, but an Ab5, since I forgot they tuned down a half step. To make up for the half-step difference, I hit the note twice instead of just once, adding another one after the end of the last verse. Also, you'll notice the rather poor control and intonation in my mixed-voice notes (Ab4 and Bb4 mainly, but also B4 a bit too), some of which I botched completely. Those notes are all pretty awkward for me, since my passagio isn't that good. Also the first verse isn't very good, but I think I did the second verse better. I say all this by way of apologizing to you fine folks who listen to this. =P

Yeah, that's what I was saying earlier in the thread. My head voice is very thin and rather shrill. As for getting more grit, I'm afraid that when I'm up that high, I'm limited to a clean, natural voice. I mean to keep practicing of course; singing's just too damn fun not to! But it's always been secondary to guitar for me. Anyway, thanks for listening and critiquing. Look forward to hearing everyone else's versions, and maybe I'll run through it some more and see if I can get it sounding better. =]

You know, I thought your original version was quite good, with nice flow. You have a much different voice than I. That said, that was a minimal amount of harshness, if I don't belt clean high notes they sound kind of wimpy and I couldn't really belt with my poor quality recording equipement. But thanks man, I can't go higher than that, hard to sustain too.

Thanks dude, I appreciate it! Actually I'm trying to think of who your voice reminds me of. The first thing that jumped to mind was 'Painkiller'-era Halford. So if you're reminding me of Halford, you're doing something right, haha. Nothing wrong with that high note man, as it's really damn high. Was that an A5 or an A#5? Don't feel like getting my guitar right now, but your rendition sounded about a half-step higher than mine. Out of curiosity, who were your main vocal influences when it comes to the upper register? My big one was Geoff Tate. I just HAD to learn how to sing 'Eyes of a Stranger'. I even intonate like he does sometimes, with that kind of nasally sound. I wish I could sing like John Arch though, that man blows my mind. I just don't understand how he has such control over his voice to sing those winding melodies of his. Buddy Lackey (Psychotic Waltz) is incredible too. Anyway, once again, very nice job!

Thiestru's highs were great, I mean, obviously you know what you need to work on, but there's a lot of potential there. Sorry for the initial doubt but I don't think my skepticism was totally unjustified.

Necroticism's on the other hand, those shrill highs sound exactly like falsetto being pushed. Not unacceptable within metal (Entire careers have been made on the strength of being able to do that) but, not really suited for that Fates Warning song at all. Not to my taste anyway. And if that's the only way you can find to get those highs you might want to rethink classifying yourself as a tenor. I mean, even I could probably hit some decent highs with similar technique, but singing those same notes with the same kind of tonal clarity as Alder or Tate would be impossible for the simple reason that I wouldn't be using the same vocal mechanisms to produce them.

(That might come off as overly critical, if so, it's not intended to be. Just some things it might be helpful to think about)

_________________"What do I know of cultured ways, the gilt, the craft and the lie?I, who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky.The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;Rush in and die, dogs--I was a man before I was a king." - R. Howard

Thiestru's highs were great, I mean, obviously you know what you need to work on, but there's a lot of potential there. Sorry for the initial doubt but I don't think my skepticism was totally unjustified.

Necroticism's on the other hand, those shrill highs sound exactly like falsetto being pushed. Not unacceptable within metal (Entire careers have been made on the strength of being able to do that) but, not really suited for that Fates Warning song at all. Not to my taste anyway. And if that's the only way you can find to get those highs you might want to rethink classifying yourself as a tenor. I mean, even I could probably hit some decent highs with similar technique, but singing those same notes with the same kind of tonal clarity as Alder or Tate would be impossible for the simple reason that I wouldn't be using the same vocal mechanisms to produce them.

(That might come off as overly critical, if so, it's not intended to be. Just some things it might be helpful to think about)

Thanks man! No worries; skepticism is natural. Glad you think I have some potential. I'm going to keep working on my voice, and hopefully one day I can smooth out the rough patches. I stand amazed at guys like Russell Allen, who sound equally comfortable in all parts of their voices.

That's weird as they were not falsetto at all, it was head voice. My falsetto sounds completely different. Also as I've said in my voice I couldn't really belt with what I had to record with. I am aware that there is a sizable note gap between my chest and head voice and I've been working on clearing it. Anyways, I could have done it in a clean tone but like I said, I wasn't feeling it (also I wasn't familiar with this song , which might explain my lack of comfort with it as I just went for broke ) You could be right about the Tenor thing though, I'm not super familiar with that stuff. I classified myself as so only because I can hit the notes of other well known Tenors. @ Thiseru, I'm not entirely sure what that last note was actually but it's the very limit of my range. You're right about me loving Halford though, I do a mean Painkiller.

Maybe we could do a different song then. I just picked that one because of the high note, and I love pimping Fates Warning. =P

Do you all know 'Soldier Without Faith' by Yngwie Malmsteen? Jeff Scott Soto's vocals in that song (and indeed the whole album) are amazing. Maybe we could try that one? Or some Queensryche? (Although I warn you, if you guys want to do 'I Don't Believe in Love', my rendition is going to be pretty bad, haha.) On the other hand, we could try some easier songs, to get an idea of how everyone's 'normal' voice sounds. Just some suggestions; I'm open to anything - and if I can't do it, I'll let you know. ^_-

The best thing about your covers were the ending. (not joking around here. The vibrato you both had was pretty impressive.)

Heh, this cold affected my voice. At the moment my fry sounds really strong and I've been able to hit some D2's actually without problem. No high notes for me these couple days but I'd love to post my upcomming covers of ''Quietus'' and ''Eyes of a Stranger''.

next time I'd like Necrotism to keep his microphone a bit further away if you don't mind.

Got 2 small samples done. Once my voice isn't so fucked up anymore I'll try to cover entire songs. I wanted to upload a piece of Dream Theater's ''A Change of Seasons'' but since this website doesn't allow me to upload audacity files I can't.

The thing is that right now I don't really know fitting songs to sing. I could do some cute ballads but I'd be bored...I could do stuff like this but it would sound very average at best probably. I do like to push myself but realise that's not the best thing to do at the moment.

Hey all, new to the site but thought I'd comment. I'm an all around extreme metal vocalist. Better at pig sqeals and growls than i am at the black metal shrieks, but I'm trying to improve on that. Also looking to get a band together but there seems to be no interest in the place i live. The fact i want the band to be christian probably doesn't help but not changing that. Anyone got anything for me?

Read the thread for info about the vocals if you're looking for advice; the subject of shrieks and growls has been talked to death, so you'll find lots of information. However, noone has truly come with a proper explanation on how to do it yet, so don't expect too much.

Finding the people to make an extreme metal band is kind of hard already, adding the issue of trying to force down a specific lyrical theme (or belief) which is often shunned upon in the genre will only make it way harder.I'm not telling you to embrace the typical satanic or pagan themes that the genre wields, but can't you find a common/neutral ground and leave the religion aside from the music? It'll save you lots of trouble.

I know looking for people of faith for a band is challenging, I've been looking for at least six years know. Let me narrow it a little. I'm a huge fan of Tech. Death and Blackened Death Metal. Am I looking for that specifically? Yes and no. I would love to be in a christian Tech Death or Blackened Death Metal band, but we will see on that end. All i know is it's gotta be a christian group of people. Not really looking to use these posts as a way to get a group together necissarily, just to find some people at least who like the same things i do, and sense there are a massive amount of Christianity based bands on this site, you can't tell me there isn't someone who likes what i like.

I've been learning to growl and do harsh vocals since August and Im developing a kind of decent sound, but my resistance is still low I can barely growl for 5 to 10 minutes... the thing is this december Im planing to record vocals for my Melodic DM project... So anyone has an advice to gain more resistance?

looked though this thread a bit, does anyone have advice on how to do raspy vocals constantly? im finally getting the sound I want (for black metal) but the random periodic coughing fits are not working out

Nailed the ending notes of Kamelot's ''Silent Goddess'' today. I also managed to sing some high notes (D and E5 I think) with some vibrato.

Tried to sing the first and halve minute of Conception's ''The last Sunset'' with a lot of twang. It was hard. My timing was completely off even though my higher notes sounded way fuller. I also had trouble keeping my twang up there the entire time.

Nice Colin, good to hear you're making progress. =] I've been very frustrated with my voice lately, but the reason is simple. I was sick recently and have been coughing ever since, and my voice gets hoarse very quickly, even when just talking. That pretty much confines all of my singing to low, soft stuff. I CAN still hit really high notes, but my mixed voice is nonexistent. Therefore, I'm just taking it easy and waiting for it to heal up.

Nice Colin, good to hear you're making progress. =] I've been very frustrated with my voice lately, but the reason is simple. I was sick recently and have been coughing ever since, and my voice gets hoarse very quickly, even when just talking. That pretty much confines all of my singing to low, soft stuff. I CAN still hit really high notes, but my mixed voice is nonexistent. Therefore, I'm just taking it easy and waiting for it to heal up.

You could also drop the super high notes and sing something more easy...e.g songs that contain vocal lines in the fourth octave perhaps. I too wish my voice was in top condition everday but sadly that's not the case at all.

5 to 10 minutes before pain or 5 to 10 minutes before it stops working?If pain, then you are doing something wrong, experiment with new throat configurations.If it's because it just stops working...do you also have trouble holding long growls?

15 to 20 minutes before it stops working... I've improved a lot by practicing and drinking warm tea while singing, and yeah some times I have troubles holding growls, can't pass 7 seconds

@Colin: Dude for what you say you could be either a high baritone or a low Tenor (or maybe whit time you may develop your voice to reach higher notes)... it would depend in which notes you are more comfortable. But the truth about vocalist is not how many octave you have, but what can you do with it, and the capability of use it wisely for his own songs

Regarding vibrato in very high notes, I believe Halford circa Sad Wings didn't actually use vibrato in the high wails, but simply altered pitch in a vibrato-esque manner. Can any of you here actually implement vibrato in your high register (ie. something like three octaves or more above your lowest note, depending on your voice type and skill)?