You'll also notice that console shooters tend to be very, very slow, making it much easier to hit targets. Whip out the Quake speeds and console players will realize how woefully inferior their control scheme truly is.

But if you really want solid proof that KB + mouse > gamepad, simply play Tribes with both. There was a console Tribes game but it had a ludicrous amount of aiming assistance.

I am not saying that you can not get good with a controller for FPS. Hell, many games for the PC for mouse and keyboard play come with the ability to turn on aim assistance because it is not easy for everybody, especially if you only play FPS occasionally.

But the truth is, all FPS console games have aim assistance, as well as larger then PC hitboxes.

I have not seen one that does not. And while I do not own a X360 or PS3, I play a tons of them at friends. Tons.

n a straight up deathmatching style of game there does seem to be a lean towards mouse use but in tactical games where other things such as reaction time with weapon and gadget swapping, use of cover, communication, vehicle use, etc things start to balance out.

Well, no. In those games for the console those abilities are super simplified as compared to a PC.

With a keyboard and so many buttons, you can bind (or edit the config file) to use so many buttons making swapping "gadgets" much quicker and fluid. You can use different keys for different weapons.

So yes, if you design a game where the player can only use ~6 buttons and make the game in general simplified, and force that onto a mouse and keyboard player, then sure the playing field will be the same.

I am not arguing against FPS on consoles (though they all have pretty much sucked) or arguing against consoles in general. If you enjoy it, great.

But trying to compare the two control schemes like people are doing is crazy. Sure I feel mouse and keyboard is superior. It is superior, on a fundamental level, because it does not limit the game designers to make such simple games.That does not mean somebody has to enjoy it more then a controller, but they are two different beast.

IMHO console games = simplified and dumbed down games (not always by any means, but the vast majority); and that does have some to do with the controller. Popular simplified games making money means more simplified and dumbed down games get made; which is bad for me, and why I hate consoles despite playing them often! heh

Hump...the firing reticle in Halo is ginormous...as are the hitboxes, anything inside that huge ass reticle is a hit. Whereas in games like Quake and CS it's pinpoint. Hell in Quake games a lot of people just use a dot.

Shadowrune ended up with all inaccurate spray and pray style weapons. Obviously with that styl of game it's going to be a lot closer.

I would sure like to see KB vs Gamepad because now I really do not think the gap is as wide as we KB users think, and playing myself I did notice that movement was much better with a gamepad. Wasnt UT3 going to be cross platform?

Man this is a subject that has caused me ulcers at times. The fact is (and this is simply my opinion based on empirical evidence) that you are correct, the gap ISN'T as wide as we'd like to think. Also, FASA studios did a lot of research into the issue when they were working on Shadowrun and they found that the gamepad did some things better than the mouse and vice versa. In a straight up deathmatching style of game there does seem to be a lean towards mouse use but in tactical games where other things such as reaction time with weapon and gadget swapping, use of cover, communication, vehicle use, etc things start to balance out.

Further, I've seen enough games of Halo 2&3 to know that there are a LOT of people who are simply phenomenal with the gamepad and would more than hold their own against mouse users. In Halo 2 for the PC I played for nearly a week with just a gamepad and after several days of adjustment I was scoring about the same as I did with a mouse (which is to say i still sucked but not any less than using a mouse )

The place where I still belive it does start making a difference is at the highest levels of competitive play for games such as Quake. Even then I'd like to see a top tier Halo player versus a top tier Quake player go at it in a game that favors neither controller (Shadowrun perhaps).

In any case, I think MS should be emulating Sony and let the devs make the decision rather than joe corporate suit who is out of touch with the playing side of games and not base it on how the community MAY or May NOT react. At the very least they should allow companies like Splitfish develop alternative control methods that aren't gimped by hardware lockouts or copyright bullshit.

Oh, and I'm curious to hear how the UT3 community is faring on the PS3 with both control methods available.

EDIT:

So if they start to merge more into a computer they must maintain their simplicity. If they start to do too much they risk becoming too complicated or perhaps more prone to crashing than they are already.

The solution to that would simply be to make a dedicated mouse and keyboard for whatever system gets it. Or, as I pinted out, Splitfish has made a great hybrid controller for PS2/PS3.

They are small full computers that is given limited function by the operating system. Sure they are tailored for gaming hardware wise. But there is no reason they can not surf the web, send e-mail, basic word processing, etc etc.

Consoles already started going that way with the Wii. Its internet browsing is adequate though it could benefit from a true QWERTY keyboard.

The problem is keeping a balance. One of the main things consoles have going for them is they're idiot proof: put in a disc and start going. There's no installation, compatibility woes, hardware tuning, necessary hardware add-ons, etc. Heck, that's why I started playing.

So if they start to merge more into a computer they must maintain their simplicity. If they start to do too much they risk becoming too complicated or perhaps more prone to crashing than they are already.

"Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you." -Fry, Futurama

If I ran a HDMI/DVI cable from my Nvidia 8800 to my big screen TV, would it pipe the PC games through to the TV? That'd be freakin' awesome to play TF2 on it and use a wireless mouse and keyboard.

Yup, I have hooked my PC up to my HDTV and played through HL2. If your TV is 1080 then you have to run it at 1920x1080, if your TV can handle 720 then you can run it at 1280 x720. Important thing is that you must set your resolution before you hook it up to the TV, been awile but I think you need to set up your video card for dual monitors and the second monitor is set up for the TV. Also on my TV I always had bad overscan when using my PC.

Odds are pretty good the console game had aim assistance.

I played the game too and I did not notice any aim assitance at all, I sucked bad couldnt hit shit.

Did you actually see him competing against someone else playing the same game on a PC with a mouse+keyboard?

No he was playing against other consoles, my thoughts are based on my watching him aim and shoot. I was stunned I did not think that you could have that much accuracy with a gamepad.

To see how well he compares to a mouse player, hook up a 360 controller to Windows and put him on a Counter Strike server.

Heh most of us KB users who are really good would get pwned on a counter strike server.

You have to remember that I am a PC gamer and I always thought that there is no chance in hell a gamepad would have a chance in hell against a KB+mouse. I have seen a kid who has never used a KB and has only ever used a gamepad show speed and accuracy I never thought possible, and he was not the best in the game he was only average so there were other players who were even better then him.

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." Benjamin Franklin

I do not know if I see consoles lasting many more generations as we know it.

They are small full computers that is given limited function by the operating system. Sure they are tailored for gaming hardware wise. But there is no reason they can not surf the web, send e-mail, basic word processing, etc etc.

I do not see how people can keep paying so much for a full computer but be told it can only be used for what one company says.

I think they will merge into one system in a couple of generations, as really, they are one system; one is just more strict then the other.

As somebody who only very recently got into consoles (Xbox 360 elite), I still find playing shooters on it the most aggravating thing in the world. I don't really even bother with straight FPS' anymore. I'll give them a rent just to play through and check them out (and yes, Halo 3 sucked any which way you slice it), but I'd never buy one.

A few years ago I obtained a mouse/kb controller for an Xbox (not 360) and played Halo 1 and 2 to see what all the fuss was about. Compared to quality FPS games, these games just weren't that much fun. HL1 or Far Cry could blow them away with quality of gameplay. Not only that, but I had to set up a table in the living room to put the mouse and kb on every time I wanted to play, which got annoying after awhile.

If MS ever designs something like a keyboard-mouse controller for whatever their new console will be (and they should), it should be something you could put in your lap.

If I ran a HDMI/DVI cable from my Nvidia 8800 to my big screen TV, would it pipe the PC games through to the TV?

It should, in theory. Sometimes there are complications.It will probably require you to run at 1920x1080 resolution.

You might be able to trick it into letting you send 1280x720, but that is a maybe, and I would not goof around to much and try and force it.

And yes, you would have no trouble playing DivX/Avi's off the PC to the TV.

Gaming would be more of an issue at that really large resolution (any modern game that the 8800 can not handle at that resolution). Which is why virtually every XBOX360/PS3 is actually rendered internally at 720P and just scaled up to 1080i/p if you tell it you want 1080.

As somebody who only very recently got into consoles (Xbox 360 elite), I still find playing shooters on it the most aggravating thing in the world. I don't really even bother with straight FPS' anymore. I'll give them a rent just to play through and check them out (and yes, Halo 3 sucked any which way you slice it), but I'd never buy one.

I can't even imagine how someone could play TF2 on the 360 vs. PC. Next gen MS may as well just throw in a mouse and keyboard. If I could play shooters on my 360 - on my 42" Sharp Aquos D64 1080p LCD - with a mouse and keyboard, I'd be a pretty happy f'n camper. Since I've been playing Mass Effect, MUA, et al, on the big screen, it's hard as hell going back to gaming on my 19" LCD for the PC.

If I ran a HDMI/DVI cable from my Nvidia 8800 to my big screen TV, would it pipe the PC games through to the TV? That'd be freakin' awesome to play TF2 on it and use a wireless mouse and keyboard.

Speaking of which, htf do you play DivX/Avi's on/through the Xbox? Or again would a HDMI/DVI cable take care of it? Play them off the PC and pipe it to the TV?

I've found that ABC.com has, by far, the best streaming video I have ever seen.

Netflix also has decent video quality on their streaming, with the added bonus of no commercials. It's not entirely free since you need to subscribe to Netflix in general, but it doesn't cost anything extra above the normal subscription. Long story short: if you already get DVDs from them in the mail, it's free to use.

The Netflix OnDemand selection isn't the best, but it's varied so you get pieces of everything. New shows, classic shows, British series, etc. Some even stay up to date with newly aired episodes like Heroes.

ABC's online service is good too, but not many of their shows have complete seasons. I actually started watching "Dirty Sexy Money," but they only have the first 2 episodes so I can't catch up.

This comment was edited on Dec 29, 01:49.

"Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you." -Fry, Futurama

I think this issue has been discussed once or possibly twice before on this site.

Did you actually see him competing against someone else playing the same game on a PC with a mouse+keyboard?

I'm not denying that a 13 year old on a gamepad couldn't kick the living shit out of lets say, a six year old roll of wet toilet paper that hasn't quite returned to organic form and is still rotting on top of an old clackity IBM keyboard with a 2-button ball mouse dangling beside it.

But I doubt it.

Didn't Shadowrun try an experiment like this? I don't know what happened as I never played either version and didn't pay too much attention.

I thought that console FPS's were designed to make their users think they were actually playing a game for a couple of hours as opposed to just watching it.

I've found that ABC.com has, by far, the best streaming video I have ever seen. You can also watch the entire last season of LOST there for nothing. You do, however, have to suffer through a 30 second commercial about every 12 - 18 minutes. Personally, I suffer through them as the quality of the video and the ease of access is seemingly worth it.

Some people are like Slinkys. Not really good for anything, but you just can't help but giggle when you see one tumble down the stairs.