“Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? (My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?)” Those are among Jesus’ last words on the Cross that first Good Friday.

It was a cry of agony, but not despair. The dying Christ, to rise again in three days, was repeating the first words of the 22nd Psalm.

And today, in lands where Christ lived and taught and beyond where the Christian faith was born and nourished, the words echo. For it is in the birthplace of Christianity that Christians face the greatest of persecutions and martyrdoms since the time of Vladimir Lenin and Josef Stalin.

President Donald Trump, outraged by pictures of infants and children who had perished in the nerve gas attack in Syria, ordered missile strikes on the air base from which the war crime came.

Two days later, Palm Sunday, 44 Coptic Christians celebrating Christ’s triumphal entry into Jerusalem were martyred in terrorist attacks in Egypt. The first bombing was at St. George’s Church in Tanta, the second at St. Mark’s in Alexandria, where the Coptic Pope Tawadros II was at Mass.

The pope was unhurt, but 100 Christians were injured in the attacks. At St. George’s, one witness described the scene after the bomb exploded near the altar: “I saw pieces of body parts. … There was so much blood everywhere. Some people had half of their bodies missing.”

The Islamic State group claims credit for the murders, and the pictures of dead children from those churches were surely as horrific as the pictures the president saw after the gas attack.

Copts are among the earliest Christians, dating to the first century A.D., when St. Mark, one of the Twelve Apostles, established the first church outside the Holy Land and became bishop of Alexandria.

The Copts make up 10 percent of Egypt’s population. They have been especially targeted for terrorist attacks since the 2013 overthrow of the Muslim Brotherhood’s Mohammed Morsi, who had been elected president after the ouster of longtime U.S. ally Hosni Mubarak.

In the subsequent struggle between Egypt’s Islamists, whose base is in Sinai, and the Cairo regime of Abdel-Fattah el-Sissi, who was welcomed to the White House in March, the Copts are seen as soft-target allies of Gen. el-Sissi’s and hated for their faith.

Whatever they did for democracy, the U.S. interventions in the Middle East and the vaunted Arab Spring have proved to be pure hell for Arab Christians.

In Saddam Hussein’s Iraq, Christians were left alone if they did not interfere in politics. Indeed, they prospered as doctors, lawyers, journalists, academics, engineers, businessmen. A Christian, Tariq Aziz, was Saddam’s foreign minister who negotiated with Secretary of State James Baker to try to prevent what became the Gulf War.

ORDER IT NOW

Before 2003, there were still 800,000 Christians in Iraq. But after a decade of church bombings and murders of priests, their numbers have plummeted. When the Islamic State seized a third of Iraq, Christians under the group’s rule had to convert to Islam and pay a tax or face beheading.

On Dec. 26, St. Stephen’s Day, which honors the first martyr, Pope Francis hailed the Iraqi Christians lately liberated from Islamic State rule, noting, “They are our martyrs of today, and there are so many we can say that they are more numerous than in the first centuries.”

In 2016, an estimated 90,000 more Christians worldwide died for their faith.

Under Syria’s dictator Hafez al-Assad and son Bashar, Christians have been 10 percent of the population and protected by the regime. They thus have sided with Assad against the terrorists of the Islamic State and al-Qaida, whose victory would mean their expulsion or death.

Of the 10 nations deemed by Christianity Today to be the most hateful and hostile toward Christianity, eight are majority-Muslim nations, with the Middle East being the site of the worst of today’s persecutions.

Afghanistan, which we “liberated” in 2001, is listed as the third-most hostile nation toward Christians. The punishment for baptism there is death. A decade ago, a Christian convert had to flee his country to avoid beheading.

Consider. Christianity, whose greatest feast day we celebrate Sunday, is the cradle faith of the culture and the civilization of the West. And in our secularized world, Christianity remains the predominant faith.

A millennium ago, Christendom mounted crusades to ensure that its pilgrims would not lose the right to visit the Holy Land in peace.

Now, a decade and a half after we launched invasions and occupations of the Muslim world in Afghanistan and then Iraq to bring the blessings of democracy, the people there who profess that Christian faith are being persecuted as horribly as they were under the Romans in Nero’s time.

Where are the gains for religious freedom and human rights to justify all the bombings, invasions and wars we have conducted in the lands from Libya to Pakistan — to justify the losses we have endured and the death and suffering we have inflicted?

Truth be told, it is in part because of us that Christianity is on its way to being exterminated in its cradle.

Happy Easter!

Patrick J. Buchanan is the author of a new book, out in May, “Nixon’s White House Wars: The Battles That Made and Broke a President and Divided America Forever.”

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Pat’s too traditional to swing at it, but his opener’s a softball for the alt-right. “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” could be read as “My God-Emperor, my God-Emperor, why have you forsaken America First?” Trump’s populist base feels the lash of increased refugee resettlement, is crowned with thorny tweets for not accepting Ryancare, and is forced to carry the globalist cross of war.

As to allegories, I just wrote a short story partly utilizing the technique. In it, a dog is red pilled by his human family on immigration. An undomesticated shelter dog that cares not for the household’s rules of behavior serves as an allegorical stand-in for an uncivilized and unmanageable refugee. (It’s 6K words long.)

Christianity isn’t doing so well outside the cradle either. It’s increasingly becoming loud, brown, and obnoxious. Various religious charities arrange for the invasion of Christian nations by Muslim Arabs and totally unassimilable sub-Saharan Africans. Pastors encourage the adoption of Africans by couples instead of natural procreation. Perhaps there is hope in the various Eastern Orthodox churches, but mainstream Protestant and Roman Catholic churches appear at the present time to be hopelessly “cucked.”

What would happen if Muslim Christians were being adopted? Would you support that noble endeavor?

Now, of course, no invasion is taking place, and these fine organizations are merely embracing the word of God. You have a perverted view of faith.

"Pastors encourage the adoption of Africans by couples instead of natural procreation."

And we ought to be thanking them for saving souls, especially those white couples who are unable to have their own children. So, how does it personally impact YOU if infant black boys and girls are given a home?

"Perhaps there is hope in the various Eastern Orthodox churches, but mainstream Protestant and Roman Catholic churches appear at the present time to be hopelessly “cucked.”

Cucked, now that is a useless meme. Would Jesus Christ utter that phrase today?

“Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? (My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?)” Those are among Jesus’ last words on the Cross that first Good Friday.

No doubt there are transcripts to prove this, possibly video, albeit only on papyrus format.

This is where Pat goes off the rails completely. The Christian narrative is simply that of previous Sun deities retold. The Pagan Christ is a really informative book with an alternative understanding but there are lots more. Bishop John Shelby Spong believes Christianity will simply disappear due to the focus on silly nonsensical stories. I tend to agree and there are increasingly lots of empty pews to back that up.

Meanwhile the Really Big Brains over at the Pentagon dropped a $16,000,000 bomb and killed approx 36 jihadis. Those guys really know how to fight a war. Good job for America those “boys” keep their pencils really sharp. Could it be that these tools are actually out to destroy America’s military by attrition?

Honestly at this point, I don't believe a word coming out of that place, do you? I don't even know if I would believe them if they said they killed 36 goats. It's all theater at this point. I saw video of a bomb exploding in a distance - big deal. Who is going to confirm that it hit anything? Maybe it wiped out a whole village - utterly. Does anybody in the US care? I mean other than; yeah, we dropped the biggest non-nuclear bomb - USA! USA!

I think it's all for ratings. Oh, and some lucky company gets to fill an order for a $16 million bomb - cha-ching! Instant economic stimulation and all it cost was the lives of 36 goats.

Meanwhile the Really Big Brains over at the Pentagon dropped a $16,000,000 bomb and killed approx 36 jihadis. Those guys really know how to fight a war. Good job for America those “boys” keep their pencils really sharp. Could it be that these tools are actually out to destroy America’s military by attrition?

Only $444,444 per jihadi killed. Compared to the $125,000,000 each that it took the Army to recruit and train four Muslim "moderates" to participate in the rebellion against Assad, that's a real bargain.

People still spews Sponge's hateful nonsense. They are objective allies of the jihadis. Christian blood is on their hands. The justification of jihadis' crimes (and of the 'atheists' of old) by the 'silly nonsensical stories' which empty the Churches is beyond disgusting.

“Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? (My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?)” Those are among Jesus’ last words on the Cross that first Good Friday.

No doubt there are transcripts to prove this, possibly video, albeit only on papyrus format.

This is where Pat goes off the rails completely. The Christian narrative is simply that of previous Sun deities retold. The Pagan Christ is a really informative book with an alternative understanding but there are lots more. Bishop John Shelby Spong believes Christianity will simply disappear due to the focus on silly nonsensical stories. I tend to agree and there are increasingly lots of empty pews to back that up.

Meanwhile the Really Big Brains over at the Pentagon dropped a $16,000,000 bomb and killed approx 36 jihadis. Those guys really know how to fight a war. Good job for America those "boys" keep their pencils really sharp. Could it be that these tools are actually out to destroy America's military by attrition?

Hey NtD,

the Pentagon dropped a $16,000,000 bomb and killed approx 36 jihadis

Honestly at this point, I don’t believe a word coming out of that place, do you? I don’t even know if I would believe them if they said they killed 36 goats. It’s all theater at this point. I saw video of a bomb exploding in a distance – big deal. Who is going to confirm that it hit anything? Maybe it wiped out a whole village – utterly. Does anybody in the US care? I mean other than; yeah, we dropped the biggest non-nuclear bomb – USA! USA!

I think it’s all for ratings. Oh, and some lucky company gets to fill an order for a $16 million bomb – cha-ching! Instant economic stimulation and all it cost was the lives of 36 goats.

{I don’t even know if I would believe them if they said they killed 36 goats.}

Yo, Talha: agree with you.

The 36 number was announced by Afghan defense dept spokesman.
The actual phrase (from RT):“The GBU-43/B killed up to 36 presumed terrorists, the Afghan Defense Ministry said.”.
And: ““No civilian has been hurt and only the base, which Daesh used to launch attacks in other parts of the province, was destroyed,” Dawlat Waziri, a spokesman for the Afghan ministry, said.”

First of all, nothing said by the corrupt Afghan gov can be believed. Their US overlords told them to say something, so they did.
I mean how the heck they know there were up to 36 ‘terrorists’ in a remote cave? And up to ’36′? That is a very strangely precise number.

Second, and I am sure you know this better: I didn’t know there was ISIS/Daesh in either Afghanistan or Pakistan. I doubt very much Pakistan’s very capable ISI would allow an Arab terrorist group to operate on its border.

The bomb may have killed some militants operating in the area, and they labeled them ‘ISIS’, so Trump can claim he is successfully “fighting ISIS”.

Just watched an aerial view of the bomb hitting some random spot in a valley. I guess I have to take it at face value that there were human beings down there and not goats.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ8j4QlYcYk

I couldn't see any caves, but it's not like I'm Batman.

As far as Daesh operating in Afghanistan. From what I have read for a while now, Taliban is fighting Daesh in certain sectors so I believe it to be real:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-35123748
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/isis-in-afghanistan-sectarian-war-taliban-opposes-it-middle-east-islamic-state-islamism-a7158146.html

I'm telling you, everybody hates these guys - they are so far off the map even Al-Qaeda is gunning for them. It's not like it's a card-carrying organization though. I mean, some guy runs over people with a truck in Europe and now he's officially 'in'.

The bomb may have killed some militants operating in the area, and they labeled them ‘ISIS’, so Trump can claim he is successfully “fighting ISIS”.

I think at this point, that's probably what's going to start happening. We might even drop it on a bunch of friendlies and say it was Daesh - it's not like you can simply contest that when dealing with the effects of a thermobaric bomb - it gets rid of the evidence pretty well. Anything to score political points.

Another tragic aspect is that the Christians in these regions are largely the descendants, genealogically and culturally, of the original civilizations. The Copts in Egypt are the living descendants of ancient Egypt, and the Assyrians and Chaldeans in Iraq and Syria are the living descendants of ancient Mesopotamia. There has been a 1400 year ongoing process of these communities being replaced by Muslim Arabs, a process which may finally be completed in our lifetimes.

Add also to the list, the Berber people of North Africa (Morroco, Algeria, Tunisia) who was replaced by Arabs or thinking they're Arabs now and forgot their Berber ancestry. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm_o-ULO6hY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBOf_X2Mswg

French historian Bernard Lugan posted intesting blog posts in French about the Berber in his blog.
http://bernardlugan.blogspot.ca/2017/03/quand-les-berberes-cesseront-ils-detre.html

Again, since the establishment of that dirty little country, TZE, Christians have faired terribly in the Levant and the rest of the Muslim world. But the Christians have nobody but themselves to blame for allowing the Jooz to dupe them, let them prosper and flourish in their world!

Another tragic aspect is that the Christians in these regions are largely the descendants, genealogically and culturally, of the original civilizations. The Copts in Egypt are the living descendants of ancient Egypt, and the Assyrians and Chaldeans in Iraq and Syria are the living descendants of ancient Mesopotamia. There has been a 1400 year ongoing process of these communities being replaced by Muslim Arabs, a process which may finally be completed in our lifetimes.

{The Copts in Egypt are the living descendants of ancient Egypt, and the Assyrians and Chaldeans in Iraq and Syria are the living descendants of ancient Mesopotamia. }

Glad you brought that up: not too many people in the dumbed-down American populace know that.
So true, and so tragic.
Ancient, sedentary, creative civilizations replaced by destructive nomad invaders.

{There has been a 1400 year ongoing process of these communities being replaced by Muslim Arabs, a process which may finally be completed in our lifetimes.}

Nomadic Muslim Arab tribes…..“a process which may finally be completed in our lifetimes,” aided and abetted by supposedly Christian West.

The latest wave of ethnic cleansing of indigenous Christians from Middle East was initiated by the criminal invasion of Iraq by US & UK, two supposedly Christian countries.

Pat’s too traditional to swing at it, but his opener’s a softball for the alt-right. “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” could be read as “My God-Emperor, my God-Emperor, why have you forsaken America First?” Trump’s populist base feels the lash of increased refugee resettlement, is crowned with thorny tweets for not accepting Ryancare, and is forced to carry the globalist cross of war.

As to allegories, I just wrote a short story partly utilizing the technique. In it, a dog is red pilled by his human family on immigration. An undomesticated shelter dog that cares not for the household’s rules of behavior serves as an allegorical stand-in for an uncivilized and unmanageable refugee. (It’s 6K words long.)

No way, it will always remain. January 04, 2017 Christians most persecuted religious group in the world, study says

Referring to statistics from the Centre for the Study of Global Christianity, Mr Introvigne said around 70 per cent of Christians murdered in 2016 died in tribal conflicts in Africa. These deaths were included, he said, because very often they involved Christians who refuse to take up arms for reasons of conscience

When Hannelie and her family left their comfortable home in South Africa to serve on the front lines in Afghanistan, they knew the risks. But they wouldn’t deny God’s call. This year’s IDOP video retells her family’s story of faithfulness and sacrifice amid those hostile to Christ.

Christianity isn't doing so well outside the cradle either. It's increasingly becoming loud, brown, and obnoxious. Various religious charities arrange for the invasion of Christian nations by Muslim Arabs and totally unassimilable sub-Saharan Africans. Pastors encourage the adoption of Africans by couples instead of natural procreation. Perhaps there is hope in the various Eastern Orthodox churches, but mainstream Protestant and Roman Catholic churches appear at the present time to be hopelessly "cucked."

What would happen if Muslim Christians were being adopted? Would you support that noble endeavor?

Now, of course, no invasion is taking place, and these fine organizations are merely embracing the word of God. You have a perverted view of faith.

“Pastors encourage the adoption of Africans by couples instead of natural procreation.”

And we ought to be thanking them for saving souls, especially those white couples who are unable to have their own children. So, how does it personally impact YOU if infant black boys and girls are given a home?

“Perhaps there is hope in the various Eastern Orthodox churches, but mainstream Protestant and Roman Catholic churches appear at the present time to be hopelessly “cucked.”

Cucked, now that is a useless meme. Would Jesus Christ utter that phrase today?

{History repeats itself…our past wave of ethnic cleansing of tribal groups from the Americas was initiated by the criminal invasion of European “Christian” nations.}

No, it doesn't.

Another vain attempt by an anti-Christian Israel-firster bigot to conflate - let's call it - the 'situation' in Israel, established on known lands already populated, with the discovery of Americas by Europeans, and settlement of lands that appeared to be barely populated or not populated at all.

What would happen if Muslim Christians were being adopted? Would you support that noble endeavor?

Now, of course, no invasion is taking place, and these fine organizations are merely embracing the word of God. You have a perverted view of faith.

"Pastors encourage the adoption of Africans by couples instead of natural procreation."

And we ought to be thanking them for saving souls, especially those white couples who are unable to have their own children. So, how does it personally impact YOU if infant black boys and girls are given a home?

"Perhaps there is hope in the various Eastern Orthodox churches, but mainstream Protestant and Roman Catholic churches appear at the present time to be hopelessly “cucked.”

Cucked, now that is a useless meme. Would Jesus Christ utter that phrase today?

If you were really a, quote, 'patriotic' American you'd try to prevent the child-emperor G.W. invading Iraq and starting the cycle of death and destruction in Middle East. You and your cohort of so-called 'patriotic' Americans are responsible for the mess in Middle East.

Pay for the damages youse so-called 'patriotic' Americans have caused, then youse can leave people in the Middle East alone: they'll be more than happy.

That's why I left Catholicism around 15yrs ago. Not that I was model Catholic as I rarely attended services. But it's shielding of pedophile priests was the last straw. If a religion doesn't protect innocent children from sexual predators then it's useless in my book.

the true spirit of the West is in our blood. Not in a book or a man with a funny hat.

You're worshiping your own asshole. The only difference between you and the left is that you inject race into your arguments. You're just as nihilistic and dead inside. Europe rejected Christianity a long time ago and it's become more degenerate and weaker for it. You've made a degenerate, corrupt people into your religion because you have a fetish for blond hair. If Europe had been Christian, hadn't succumbed to birth control, abortion, the analgesic of hedonistic consumerism, they'd still have a culture and and they'd still have their nations. How dumb are you not to see that this is God's punishment for sin and stupidity. Why does Catholic Poland or Slovakia have no problem resisting muslim refugees while secular Sweden welcomes them? Because the Swedes know that they and their culture are trash and that they deserve to burn. They welcome their invaders because they know the lives they lead aren't worth living. Deep inside they hate their culture and what they've become and they welcome it's end.

Think about this while you do nothing this Easter like the Jew or Atheist that you are. If any of your ancestors were Christian, think about how you dishonor them by insulting the faith that they lived and died in and through which they enjoy eternal life.

..why should anyone follow a theology that is promulgated by pedophiles and avaricious, moral cowards?

The theology (faith) was in place long before the pedophiles and cowards showed up. Remember the Russian Orthodox metropolitan was once a KGB agent. That didn't change the faith the people were following.

1. Whatever they did for democracy, the U.S. interventions in the Middle East and the vaunted Arab Spring have proved to be pure hell for Arab Christians.

2. Now, a decade and a half after we launched invasions and occupations of the Muslim world in Afghanistan and then Iraq to bring the blessings of democracy

Allow me to revise these two statements to make them accord with reality:

1. Whatever they did for Israel, the U.S. interventions in the Middle East and the vaunted Arab Spring have proved to be pure hell for Arab Christians.

2. Now, a decade and a half after we launched invasions and occupations of the Muslim world in Afghanistan and then Iraq to bring the blessings of security to the villa in the jungle

And, finally, the answer to the following question:

3. Where are the gains… to justify all the bombings, invasions and wars we have conducted in the lands from Libya to Pakistan — to justify the losses we have endured and the death and suffering we have inflicted?

{I don’t even know if I would believe them if they said they killed 36 goats.}

Yo, Talha: agree with you.

The 36 number was announced by Afghan defense dept spokesman.
The actual phrase (from RT):"The GBU-43/B killed up to 36 presumed terrorists, the Afghan Defense Ministry said.".And: "“No civilian has been hurt and only the base, which Daesh used to launch attacks in other parts of the province, was destroyed,” Dawlat Waziri, a spokesman for the Afghan ministry, said."

First of all, nothing said by the corrupt Afghan gov can be believed. Their US overlords told them to say something, so they did.
I mean how the heck they know there were up to 36 'terrorists' in a remote cave? And up to '36'? That is a very strangely precise number.

Second, and I am sure you know this better: I didn't know there was ISIS/Daesh in either Afghanistan or Pakistan. I doubt very much Pakistan's very capable ISI would allow an Arab terrorist group to operate on its border.

The bomb may have killed some militants operating in the area, and they labeled them 'ISIS', so Trump can claim he is successfully "fighting ISIS".

Pathetic.

Yo Avery,

Just watched an aerial view of the bomb hitting some random spot in a valley. I guess I have to take it at face value that there were human beings down there and not goats.

I couldn’t see any caves, but it’s not like I’m Batman.

As far as Daesh operating in Afghanistan. From what I have read for a while now, Taliban is fighting Daesh in certain sectors so I believe it to be real:

I’m telling you, everybody hates these guys – they are so far off the map even Al-Qaeda is gunning for them. It’s not like it’s a card-carrying organization though. I mean, some guy runs over people with a truck in Europe and now he’s officially ‘in’.

The bomb may have killed some militants operating in the area, and they labeled them ‘ISIS’, so Trump can claim he is successfully “fighting ISIS”.

I think at this point, that’s probably what’s going to start happening. We might even drop it on a bunch of friendlies and say it was Daesh – it’s not like you can simply contest that when dealing with the effects of a thermobaric bomb – it gets rid of the evidence pretty well. Anything to score political points.

Sadly, it seems that way. You can’t defeat your mortal and existential enemy with unbridled tolerance and by turning the other cheek. If the U.S. really cared about innocents then they’d be granting military assistance to embattled Christian communities and helping them plan and execute reprisal attacks against Muslims who commit these atrocities. It’s time for more “an eye for an eye” and less turn the other cheek. Ditto for white S. Africans in their struggle with the black terrorists of the ANC.

Most within the church hierarchy seem to be weaklings, closet Marxists and sellouts at least in America and most of the Western world. Few inspire confidence. They are enthusiastically sponsoring Muslim refugees while ignoring the plight of their own co-religionists. The pope is now an SJW and opponent of Western civilization.

Just think, if there are any Pat Buchanan’s in the future then around 2060 the headline will read, “Will the white race perish in its European birthplace?”

that there's been hardly a Christian voice in defiance of the Satanic Eternal Wars and the serial atrocities in Palestine- paint the Christian leadership as den of iniquitous, sniveling vermin

if Christianity does not have leaders of spiritual integrity, then what is left?

why should anyone follow a theology that is promulgated by pedophiles and avaricious, moral cowards?

the true spirit of the West is in our blood. Not in a book or a man with a funny hat.

I honor and respect the Christian people as my brothers and sisters and the best people I know.

but I condemn the Christian leadership as having sat by and watched the Holy Land descend into horrors and madness, so long as there were shekels clinking under their frocks.

Pat Buchanan is one of the good ones, but he's too marinated in the good graces of Catholicism to ever really hold their sacrament to the Metousiosis

that the Catholics tolerated boy-rape is demonic

That’s why I left Catholicism around 15yrs ago. Not that I was model Catholic as I rarely attended services. But it’s shielding of pedophile priests was the last straw. If a religion doesn’t protect innocent children from sexual predators then it’s useless in my book.

If a religion doesn’t protect innocent children from sexual predators then it’s useless in my book.

not just sexual predators, but homosexual pedophile rapists who used the divine authority of the Church and while acting as the agents of God Himself to stuff their bits into the orifices of little boys, thereby permanently degrading these boys dignity, sexual identity, gender identity and innocence for the momentary base pleasure of these anointed 'men of God'

it's hard to even imagine a more heinous act of depravity. Not only of the flesh but of the spiritual as well. For a religious institution to tolerate and even facilitate such a thing, is beyond, well.. beyond demonic. It is Satanic.

It's always some Catholic who never went to mass or was Catholic in any meaningful way who writes about leaving the church in outrage. People who say what you say are almost always degenerates who just don't want to be accountable to any moral authority higher than their own cum. You were probably glad when you read about the abuse scandals because it made you feel justified for whatever you've got going on in your own life. We live in an utterly degenerate society were every institution in charge of children abuses children. Show me one study that says abuse rates were higher in the Catholic church than in other denominations or in secular schools. The church is given to us by God but the humans running it are evil and fallible. Do you think this is the first scandal in 2000 years of church history? Did your ancestors go back to worshiping goats and trees in the woods if they didn't like what a priest did? No, you're the weak link in the chain. Evil behaviour by popes or priests doesn't absolve us of our responsibilities as Christians.
You should go to Easter mass tomorrow, at some church at least even if it isn't Catholic.

“Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? (My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?)” Those are among Jesus’ last words on the Cross that first Good Friday.

No doubt there are transcripts to prove this, possibly video, albeit only on papyrus format.

This is where Pat goes off the rails completely. The Christian narrative is simply that of previous Sun deities retold. The Pagan Christ is a really informative book with an alternative understanding but there are lots more. Bishop John Shelby Spong believes Christianity will simply disappear due to the focus on silly nonsensical stories. I tend to agree and there are increasingly lots of empty pews to back that up.

Meanwhile the Really Big Brains over at the Pentagon dropped a $16,000,000 bomb and killed approx 36 jihadis. Those guys really know how to fight a war. Good job for America those "boys" keep their pencils really sharp. Could it be that these tools are actually out to destroy America's military by attrition?

Meanwhile the Really Big Brains over at the Pentagon dropped a $16,000,000 bomb and killed approx 36 jihadis. Those guys really know how to fight a war. Good job for America those “boys” keep their pencils really sharp. Could it be that these tools are actually out to destroy America’s military by attrition?

Only $444,444 per jihadi killed. Compared to the $125,000,000 each that it took the Army to recruit and train four Muslim “moderates” to participate in the rebellion against Assad, that’s a real bargain.

Just watched an aerial view of the bomb hitting some random spot in a valley. I guess I have to take it at face value that there were human beings down there and not goats.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ8j4QlYcYk

I couldn't see any caves, but it's not like I'm Batman.

As far as Daesh operating in Afghanistan. From what I have read for a while now, Taliban is fighting Daesh in certain sectors so I believe it to be real:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-35123748
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/isis-in-afghanistan-sectarian-war-taliban-opposes-it-middle-east-islamic-state-islamism-a7158146.html

I'm telling you, everybody hates these guys - they are so far off the map even Al-Qaeda is gunning for them. It's not like it's a card-carrying organization though. I mean, some guy runs over people with a truck in Europe and now he's officially 'in'.

The bomb may have killed some militants operating in the area, and they labeled them ‘ISIS’, so Trump can claim he is successfully “fighting ISIS”.

I think at this point, that's probably what's going to start happening. We might even drop it on a bunch of friendlies and say it was Daesh - it's not like you can simply contest that when dealing with the effects of a thermobaric bomb - it gets rid of the evidence pretty well. Anything to score political points.

Peace.

Afghans don’t particularly care much for Arabs, even ISIS inspired locals, so I can see the conflict there.
Still the biggest enemy is Zion and their minions in the West.

No, the biggest enemy is radicalism, and those who are obsessed with this notion that the "West" is worth keeping. Most white Americans, when asked about this concept, go "huh", and rightfully so. We have larger issues to attend to.

Well, in Europe, we rejected Christianity through and through. Christianity is dying in Europe, not only in the Middle East.

We thought we were smarter because we were born later. Who needs Thomas Aquinas when you have reality TV? We mocked and despised Christianity, this fairy tale of old ugly spinsters. We were better, we were more evolved, we were modern!

Old things had to be put in the garbage bin so a New Era of freedom, equality, pleasure and progress could start and take Europeans to the next step of human evolution.

The result of this? Europe being conquered by Islam. We thought we were smarter than people of yesteryear. In reality, we were only a bunch of smug fools who didn’t know anything but felt super-smart (Dunning-Kruger effect, google it). The joke is on us.

well it seems to me that it is the Christian organizations that are often responsible for importing these immigrants into all putatively Christian lands.

they've become an emasculated religion of self-loathing, status-whoring worms who aren't satisfied to wallow in their own abased self-contempt, but are determined to ruin yours and your children's way of life too.

look at the Pope demanding the West open its gates

what a revolting little panderer to the forces of evil

it's no wonder Europe is repudiating the Catholic church. I have an Irish buddy who says the final straw for him was when there was a national debate over gay marriage in Ireland, and the Poop was basically moot.

he no longer has any use for these Jerry Sandusky worshipers

if there were a Christian leader of integrity and honor and fortitude who had the spiritual nads to stand up to the Zionists and commies who're deconstructing Europe and building a homo's diversity paradise on Europe's ashes, then that might be something. But I sure see no man (or woman) anywhere in sight, at least not from the ranks of the Christian church, who're doing anything but spreading the other cheek.

why should Europe follow the sniveling cowards of today's church off the cliff.

you want Europe to follow a religion, then that religion better be full of vigor and hope for the future of Europe. Not sniveling little homosexuals demanding the importation of unlimited numbers of young men and boys from the Middle East and Africa.

I'm not advocating a crusade into other people's lands, but Europe is not the Catholic and other Christian churches property to give away for pats on the head and bags of shekels. No. Europe belongs to the European people and its progeny. And if the Christian church becomes the biggest obstacle to protecting Europe, then damn them all to hell, and find a spiritual bulwark that will serve Europe's posterity into the future.

Europe hasn't been Christian for a long time. You have these idiots now who want to blame the European degeneracy and moral failure on something Bergogolio said yesterday, but the rot has been there for a long time. Chesterton and Belloc were warning us about it 100 years ago. We were stupid to think that secularism was a replacement for the faith that protected us at Vienna, Tours and Lepanto and that is inextricably bound to last 2000 years of our culture. Belloc wrote that the Faith was Europe and Europe was the Faith and that Europe would return to the faith or Europe would perish. So now we're watching the terminal phase of a long slow unraveling.

That's why I left Catholicism around 15yrs ago. Not that I was model Catholic as I rarely attended services. But it's shielding of pedophile priests was the last straw. If a religion doesn't protect innocent children from sexual predators then it's useless in my book.

If a religion doesn’t protect innocent children from sexual predators then it’s useless in my book.

not just sexual predators, but homosexual pedophile rapists who used the divine authority of the Church and while acting as the agents of God Himself to stuff their bits into the orifices of little boys, thereby permanently degrading these boys dignity, sexual identity, gender identity and innocence for the momentary base pleasure of these anointed ‘men of God’

it’s hard to even imagine a more heinous act of depravity. Not only of the flesh but of the spiritual as well. For a religious institution to tolerate and even facilitate such a thing, is beyond, well.. beyond demonic. It is Satanic.

Well, in Europe, we rejected Christianity through and through. Christianity is dying in Europe, not only in the Middle East.

We thought we were smarter because we were born later. Who needs Thomas Aquinas when you have reality TV? We mocked and despised Christianity, this fairy tale of old ugly spinsters. We were better, we were more evolved, we were modern!

Old things had to be put in the garbage bin so a New Era of freedom, equality, pleasure and progress could start and take Europeans to the next step of human evolution.

The result of this? Europe being conquered by Islam. We thought we were smarter than people of yesteryear. In reality, we were only a bunch of smug fools who didn't know anything but felt super-smart (Dunning-Kruger effect, google it). The joke is on us.

We mocked and despised Christianity…

The result of this? Europe being conquered by Islam.

well it seems to me that it is the Christian organizations that are often responsible for importing these immigrants into all putatively Christian lands.

they’ve become an emasculated religion of self-loathing, status-whoring worms who aren’t satisfied to wallow in their own abased self-contempt, but are determined to ruin yours and your children’s way of life too.

look at the Pope demanding the West open its gates

what a revolting little panderer to the forces of evil

it’s no wonder Europe is repudiating the Catholic church. I have an Irish buddy who says the final straw for him was when there was a national debate over gay marriage in Ireland, and the Poop was basically moot.

he no longer has any use for these Jerry Sandusky worshipers

if there were a Christian leader of integrity and honor and fortitude who had the spiritual nads to stand up to the Zionists and commies who’re deconstructing Europe and building a homo’s diversity paradise on Europe’s ashes, then that might be something. But I sure see no man (or woman) anywhere in sight, at least not from the ranks of the Christian church, who’re doing anything but spreading the other cheek.

why should Europe follow the sniveling cowards of today’s church off the cliff.

where are these Christians?
you want Europe to follow a religion, then that religion better be full of vigor and hope for the future of Europe. Not sniveling little homosexuals demanding the importation of unlimited numbers of young men and boys from the Middle East and Africa.

I’m not advocating a crusade into other people’s lands, but Europe is not the Catholic and other Christian churches property to give away for pats on the head and bags of shekels. No. Europe belongs to the European people and its progeny. And if the Christian church becomes the biggest obstacle to protecting Europe, then damn them all to hell, and find a spiritual bulwark that will serve Europe’s posterity into the future.

Afghans don't particularly care much for Arabs, even ISIS inspired locals, so I can see the conflict there.
Still the biggest enemy is Zion and their minions in the West.

“Still the biggest enemy is Zion and their minions in the West.”

No, the biggest enemy is radicalism, and those who are obsessed with this notion that the “West” is worth keeping. Most white Americans, when asked about this concept, go “huh”, and rightfully so. We have larger issues to attend to.

Honestly at this point, I don't believe a word coming out of that place, do you? I don't even know if I would believe them if they said they killed 36 goats. It's all theater at this point. I saw video of a bomb exploding in a distance - big deal. Who is going to confirm that it hit anything? Maybe it wiped out a whole village - utterly. Does anybody in the US care? I mean other than; yeah, we dropped the biggest non-nuclear bomb - USA! USA!

I think it's all for ratings. Oh, and some lucky company gets to fill an order for a $16 million bomb - cha-ching! Instant economic stimulation and all it cost was the lives of 36 goats.

well it seems to me that it is the Christian organizations that are often responsible for importing these immigrants into all putatively Christian lands.

they've become an emasculated religion of self-loathing, status-whoring worms who aren't satisfied to wallow in their own abased self-contempt, but are determined to ruin yours and your children's way of life too.

look at the Pope demanding the West open its gates

what a revolting little panderer to the forces of evil

it's no wonder Europe is repudiating the Catholic church. I have an Irish buddy who says the final straw for him was when there was a national debate over gay marriage in Ireland, and the Poop was basically moot.

he no longer has any use for these Jerry Sandusky worshipers

if there were a Christian leader of integrity and honor and fortitude who had the spiritual nads to stand up to the Zionists and commies who're deconstructing Europe and building a homo's diversity paradise on Europe's ashes, then that might be something. But I sure see no man (or woman) anywhere in sight, at least not from the ranks of the Christian church, who're doing anything but spreading the other cheek.

why should Europe follow the sniveling cowards of today's church off the cliff.

you want Europe to follow a religion, then that religion better be full of vigor and hope for the future of Europe. Not sniveling little homosexuals demanding the importation of unlimited numbers of young men and boys from the Middle East and Africa.

I'm not advocating a crusade into other people's lands, but Europe is not the Catholic and other Christian churches property to give away for pats on the head and bags of shekels. No. Europe belongs to the European people and its progeny. And if the Christian church becomes the biggest obstacle to protecting Europe, then damn them all to hell, and find a spiritual bulwark that will serve Europe's posterity into the future.

For the sake of Israel, Zionist Neocons pushed for wars in Middle East.
Evangelicals gave them full blessing.
That led to chaos and mayhem. And power vacuum with the fall of secular rulers. Result is open season on Christians by Arab Muslims. Muslims, humiliated by Zionist-American destruction of the Middle East, needed a scapegoat, and so, they attacked Christians.

Christians are hated for host of reasons in the Middle East. Many Muslims hate Christians for having supported the toppled secular tyrant in the past. It is revenge for past sins. But other Muslims hate Christians as collaborators of US invasion. They feel, “If we can’t attack American Christians who support Zionism, we at least attack Arab Christians.”

Anyway, shame on American Christians who aided and abetted these Wars for Israel. Israel is safe and sound.. but much of Middle East is strewn with the bodies of countless Muslims and Christians.

Agreed. Ditto for Clinton and Reagan, methinks. Probably the only American Presidents in my lifetime who were true believers are Carter and Bush Jr. Coincidentally, they were also the two worst presidents...

No, the biggest enemy is radicalism, and those who are obsessed with this notion that the "West" is worth keeping. Most white Americans, when asked about this concept, go "huh", and rightfully so. We have larger issues to attend to.

{I don’t even know if I would believe them if they said they killed 36 goats.}

Yo, Talha: agree with you.

The 36 number was announced by Afghan defense dept spokesman.
The actual phrase (from RT):"The GBU-43/B killed up to 36 presumed terrorists, the Afghan Defense Ministry said.".And: "“No civilian has been hurt and only the base, which Daesh used to launch attacks in other parts of the province, was destroyed,” Dawlat Waziri, a spokesman for the Afghan ministry, said."

First of all, nothing said by the corrupt Afghan gov can be believed. Their US overlords told them to say something, so they did.
I mean how the heck they know there were up to 36 'terrorists' in a remote cave? And up to '36'? That is a very strangely precise number.

Second, and I am sure you know this better: I didn't know there was ISIS/Daesh in either Afghanistan or Pakistan. I doubt very much Pakistan's very capable ISI would allow an Arab terrorist group to operate on its border.

The bomb may have killed some militants operating in the area, and they labeled them 'ISIS', so Trump can claim he is successfully "fighting ISIS".

Pathetic.

8 Avery > Pakistan’s very capable ISI

not proven

The Sindh Rangers, on the other hand, are very effective.

I do like the cut and color of the new uniforms being issued to the Punjab Police. Now, if Talha could just get them to enforce the law whichs dis-allow mob lynching for rumored “blasphemy”.

Good for them - the more languages the merrier. I remember an anthropologist once stated in a documentary a wisdom he learned from one of the South American tribal elders; when a language dies mankind loses one of its ways to praise God.

Talha’s people lost a war in 1971

They should have lost that war - the crimes that the West Pakistani army committed were horrible. Pakistan is still paying the spiritual consequences for not coming to terms with that legacy and repenting for their actions.

Talha’s cousins had a nakba in 1883

Is this an attempt to guilt trip me for some crimes that some Muslims committed in the past? Maybe that works for others, but they will answer for their deeds, I will answer for mine. As for the revival of Hebrew - see my first note:
"And of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth and the diversity of your languages and your colors. Indeed in that are signs for those of knowledge." (30:22)

he’ll live to see Gaza ruled by it’s indigenii…… Copts who speak Coptic.

Would love to see a revival of Coptic language among a bilingual Muslim as well as Christian population of Egypt - see first note.

well it seems to me that it is the Christian organizations that are often responsible for importing these immigrants into all putatively Christian lands.

they've become an emasculated religion of self-loathing, status-whoring worms who aren't satisfied to wallow in their own abased self-contempt, but are determined to ruin yours and your children's way of life too.

look at the Pope demanding the West open its gates

what a revolting little panderer to the forces of evil

it's no wonder Europe is repudiating the Catholic church. I have an Irish buddy who says the final straw for him was when there was a national debate over gay marriage in Ireland, and the Poop was basically moot.

he no longer has any use for these Jerry Sandusky worshipers

if there were a Christian leader of integrity and honor and fortitude who had the spiritual nads to stand up to the Zionists and commies who're deconstructing Europe and building a homo's diversity paradise on Europe's ashes, then that might be something. But I sure see no man (or woman) anywhere in sight, at least not from the ranks of the Christian church, who're doing anything but spreading the other cheek.

why should Europe follow the sniveling cowards of today's church off the cliff.

you want Europe to follow a religion, then that religion better be full of vigor and hope for the future of Europe. Not sniveling little homosexuals demanding the importation of unlimited numbers of young men and boys from the Middle East and Africa.

I'm not advocating a crusade into other people's lands, but Europe is not the Catholic and other Christian churches property to give away for pats on the head and bags of shekels. No. Europe belongs to the European people and its progeny. And if the Christian church becomes the biggest obstacle to protecting Europe, then damn them all to hell, and find a spiritual bulwark that will serve Europe's posterity into the future.

” the ranks of the Christian church, who’re doing anything but spreading the other cheek.”

If you were really a, quote, ‘patriotic’ American you’d try to prevent the child-emperor G.W. invading Iraq and starting the cycle of death and destruction in Middle East.
You and your cohort of so-called ‘patriotic’ Americans are responsible for the mess in Middle East.

Pay for the damages youse so-called ‘patriotic’ Americans have caused, then youse can leave people in the Middle East alone: they’ll be more than happy.

"The latest wave of ethnic cleansing of indigenous Christians from Middle East was initiated by the criminal invasion of Iraq by US & UK, two supposedly Christian countries."

History repeats itself...our past wave of ethnic cleansing of tribal groups from the Americas was initiated by the criminal invasion of European "Christian" nations.

{History repeats itself…our past wave of ethnic cleansing of tribal groups from the Americas was initiated by the criminal invasion of European “Christian” nations.}

No, it doesn’t.

Another vain attempt by an anti-Christian Israel-firster bigot to conflate – let’s call it – the ‘situation’ in Israel, established on known lands already populated, with the discovery of Americas by Europeans, and settlement of lands that appeared to be barely populated or not populated at all.

I'm confused - how did Israel get in to this? The article is about the declining populations of Christians in Iraq, Syria, and Egypt.

If the idea was to draw a parallel between the fate of the natives of the Americas and the Arabs who live in Israel, that is ridiculous. First of all, Native American populations declined by about 90% following conquest, while the Arabs who have in recent decades adopted the moniker "Palestinian" have increased by about a factor of 10 since the supposed conquest of their region by Israel. Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, Arabs are not indigenous to the Levant, including Israel - they conquered the region from farther South.

Interestingly, the above is flawed by omission of Israel which is aligning itself with the Islamists to kill Christianity at its birthplace and the main architect of the destruction of Iraq and the present day attempt to do the same in Syria.

{History repeats itself…our past wave of ethnic cleansing of tribal groups from the Americas was initiated by the criminal invasion of European “Christian” nations.}

No, it doesn't.

Another vain attempt by an anti-Christian Israel-firster bigot to conflate - let's call it - the 'situation' in Israel, established on known lands already populated, with the discovery of Americas by Europeans, and settlement of lands that appeared to be barely populated or not populated at all.

“anti-Christian Israel-firster bigot”

Actually, I’m a pro-religion, pro-human partisan.

“…and settlement of lands that appeared to be barely populated or not populated at all.”

Not really.

Estimated population of Europe in 1492: about 60 million.

Estimated population of the Americas in 1492: 40-100 million.

Estimated population of Europe in 1800: 150 million.

Estimated population of the Americas in 1800: 25 million (the vast majority of whom were of European or African descent)

You can be pro-religion and anti-Christian at the same time.You can be pro-Islam and anti-Christian at the same time.You can be pro-Jewish (religion) and anti-Christian: like you are.See how that works?

{Estimated population of the Americas in 1492: 40-100 million.}

Right: that is some estimate.Why not 40-400 million. Or 4-400 million.Every other estimate in your list has one number.That is not an estimate: it is a guess.Nobody really knows how many Native Americans there were in North America before the Europeans showed up.Some people have guesstimated as low as 2 million, some have guesstimated up to 100 million.

Obviously Europeans showing up caused massive changes in the lives of the Natives. But trying to compare the creation of Israel in 1948 to European settlement of NA 500 years ago is desperate.

I have my doubts Obama is really religious at all, he probably just pretended to be so for political reasons (and Trump probably isn't either).

Agreed. Ditto for Clinton and Reagan, methinks. Probably the only American Presidents in my lifetime who were true believers are Carter and Bush Jr. Coincidentally, they were also the two worst presidents…

If a religion doesn’t protect innocent children from sexual predators then it’s useless in my book.

not just sexual predators, but homosexual pedophile rapists who used the divine authority of the Church and while acting as the agents of God Himself to stuff their bits into the orifices of little boys, thereby permanently degrading these boys dignity, sexual identity, gender identity and innocence for the momentary base pleasure of these anointed 'men of God'

it's hard to even imagine a more heinous act of depravity. Not only of the flesh but of the spiritual as well. For a religious institution to tolerate and even facilitate such a thing, is beyond, well.. beyond demonic. It is Satanic.

not just sexual predators, but homosexual pedophile rapists

Right, and who the Church knowingly harbored and shielded for decades thus destroying the lives of many young boys. Hard to have faith in an institution that does such despicable things.

"...and settlement of lands that appeared to be barely populated or not populated at all."

Not really.

Estimated population of Europe in 1492: about 60 million.

Estimated population of the Americas in 1492: 40-100 million.

Estimated population of Europe in 1800: 150 million.

Estimated population of the Americas in 1800: 25 million (the vast majority of whom were of European or African descent)

{Actually, I’m a pro-religion, pro-human partisan.}

You can be pro-religion and anti-Christian at the same time.
You can be pro-Islam and anti-Christian at the same time.
You can be pro-Jewish (religion) and anti-Christian: like you are.
See how that works?

{Estimated population of the Americas in 1492: 40-100 million.}

Right: that is some estimate.
Why not 40-400 million. Or 4-400 million.
Every other estimate in your list has one number.
That is not an estimate: it is a guess.
Nobody really knows how many Native Americans there were in North America before the Europeans showed up.
Some people have guesstimated as low as 2 million, some have guesstimated up to 100 million.

Obviously Europeans showing up caused massive changes in the lives of the Natives. But trying to compare the creation of Israel in 1948 to European settlement of NA 500 years ago is desperate.

If you are pro-religion, you are supportive of any and all organized religions. That's me. To each their own. Except, of course, when it comes to radicalism of faith. For example, those who make the claim that "my religion is the best" or "other religions are evil" or "If you don't believe exactly how I do, you are not a true [insert religion here]".

"That is not an estimate: it is a guess. Nobody really knows how many Native Americans there were in North America before the Europeans showed up."

No, it is an estimate made by anthropologists and historians. Regardless, Native Americans had flourishing civilizations. There were tens of millions of them, until greedy Europeans took their land by force in the name of Christianity.

"Obviously Europeans showing up caused massive changes in the lives of the Natives."

Changes generally detrimental to Natives.

"But trying to compare the creation of Israel in 1948 to European settlement of NA 500 years ago is desperate."

One could reasonably argue that Israel and Europeans used forced to get what they wanted. One could reasonably argue that Israel and Europeans believed their religion and culture was superior.

2 or 3 more generations, we'll have them (at least around here) once again speaking their indigenous language - Aramaic.

Talha's people lost a war in 1971 because they wanted to force the Muslim Bengalis (in their own homeland!) to speak Urdu.

Talha's cousins had a nakba in 1883 when we managed to restore Hebrew-speaking kindergardens in Jerusalem.

If Talha lives long enough, he'll live to see Gaza ruled by it's indigenii...... Copts who speak Coptic.

Hey Karlito!

once again speaking their indigenous language – Aramaic

Good for them – the more languages the merrier. I remember an anthropologist once stated in a documentary a wisdom he learned from one of the South American tribal elders; when a language dies mankind loses one of its ways to praise God.

Talha’s people lost a war in 1971

They should have lost that war – the crimes that the West Pakistani army committed were horrible. Pakistan is still paying the spiritual consequences for not coming to terms with that legacy and repenting for their actions.

Talha’s cousins had a nakba in 1883

Is this an attempt to guilt trip me for some crimes that some Muslims committed in the past? Maybe that works for others, but they will answer for their deeds, I will answer for mine. As for the revival of Hebrew – see my first note:
“And of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth and the diversity of your languages and your colors. Indeed in that are signs for those of knowledge.” (30:22)

he’ll live to see Gaza ruled by it’s indigenii…… Copts who speak Coptic.

Would love to see a revival of Coptic language among a bilingual Muslim as well as Christian population of Egypt – see first note.

Well, most of the comments are off-topic, including intelligent indifference, bait-and-switch and tasteless jokes. Not all, thankfully, but then one can not really expect a widespread sense of brotherhood from atheists or Muslims.

So that answers Buchanan’s question, with its mild implied call to reflection and perhaps some solidarity with Christians in the Middle East.

yes they do, and a very warm and heartfelt Happy Easter to you and yours Veritatis,

for me, God has always meant = love

(organized religion or not)

if your heart is kind and your soul filled with grace, it doesn't matter I suppose too much on which religion you believe, but the words and the actions of Jesus Christ were as close to what I'd consider the perfect expression of human perfection. If a man ever was the embodiment of Truth and Love and Justice and Beautify, then surely He was it.

God bless

I'll leave you with these words ~

And seeing the multitudes, He went up into a mountain: and when He was set, His disciples came unto Him:

And He opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

~ it's because of words like this, and also because He took them (the Fiend) on, and sacrificed His life for us, that I consider him the perfect expression of Love

An intended by-product of the the Neocoen policy since Bush 'The Lesser'. The Cabal is dancing in the streets!Death to 'The Cabal.'

Again, since the establishment of that dirty little country, TZE, Christians have faired terribly in the Levant and the rest of the Muslim world. But the Christians have nobody but themselves to blame for allowing the Jooz to dupe them, let them prosper and flourish in their world!

Unfortunately the enemies of the Catholic and Orthodox church are succeeding.
Protestantism was always a rebellion rooted in hatred of Roman Catholicism. Islam itself may have been influenced by Arianism which rejects the divinity of Christ. Both wish to destroy traditional Christianity.
So look back over recent history, you will find all the great Protestant nations are sympathetic to Islam, even supporting Islamic radicalism with arms and military support.
These nations England, USA and Germany don’t seem to mind at all about the murder of Christians, in fact those Protestants who have morphed into radical atheists I suspect think it is a great idea.
It has been 500 hundred years of pounding by the great Northern Protestant nations at the foundations of the traditional Christian churches. I don’t think they care if their evil twin Islam strikes the final blow at Rome.
Perhaps Pat you should consider these ideas before reflecting on the murder of Christians in the Middle East.
Certainly some explanation is needed as to why the great powers and their leaders seem so unmoved by all this persecution of Christians. I have read of no explanation anywhere in the MSM or on other online blogs as to why there is a conspiracy of silence around this widespread murder and persecution.
The greatest defender of Christians in the east was probably a strong Christian Europe who would extract vengeance on Islam for attacks on Orthodox Christians. A secular Europe lead by Protestants like the Lutheran pastors daughter Merkel offers no protection, just silence and platitudes.
These are unfashionable ideas I know, but sometimes truth becomes unfashionable and unmentionable.

Certain Orthodox churches existed only inside Muslim lands for centuries - if they were supposed to be destroyed, we wouldn't be having a conversation about them now.

Your antagonism against Protestants actually expounds on why Christians often failed on the battlefront and in the age of empires. It is only relatively recently that the various Christian sects have learned to chill about their divisions. For centuries their divisions vociferously denounced and brutally suppressed each other. This was taken advantage of by everybody from the Sassanids, Muslims and even the Mongols. The history of the Coptic Church is a prime example:"Under the yoke of the Byzantine empire -- a continuation of the Roman empire in the east Mediterranean -- the Copts were treated very badly. The Byzantines imposed on them an alien patriarch who was sent to Egypt from Constantinople. But in 623 A.D. the Persians captured Egypt as a result of the immense chaos all over the country. The Copts were prevented from practicing their religion, and their human and national rights were denied. Nevertheless, some Copts felt relief because alien Patriarchs were no longer appointed by Byzantium to oppress the Egyptian church...This was a bitter period in which Emperor Heraclius' only concern was to oppose and shatter the church. He gave orders to transfer Bishop Visas of Asia Minor to Alexandria with power to exercise both ecclesiastical and civil authority. During that period, Pope Benjamin was forced to flee to Scetis...The Arabs marched under Amr Ibn Elaas, reached Egypt at Al Farama on the Red Sea. After a month of fighting they conquered the city and headed west...Amr cancelled the heavy Byzantine taxes and did not ask the Egyptians to pay more than the tribute. He opted to collect reasonably moderate sums of money and differed on this matter with Omar Ibn Al-Khattab (his commander the caliph). He also gave the Egyptians freedom to worship and freely exercise their legal and administrative matters. He appointed some Copts as directors in various districts, yet he exempted them from the military service. In an amicable atmosphere, the Pope met with Amr who showed him esteem and veneration."http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/synexarion/benjamen.html

Similar accounts remain from the Eastern Christians, especially non-Chalcedonian sects like the Nestorians who (though not happy at the prospect of a new conquering people) thought the Arabs were sent by God to punish the Byzantines for oppressing them:http://www.upenn.edu/pennpress/book/15378.html

The greatest defender of Christians in the east was probably a strong Christian Europe who would extract vengeance on Islam for attacks on Orthodox Christians.

There was a reason that the Crusades, from a strong Christian Europe, failed to wrest the Holy Lands back from the Muslims. Much of this failure lay again in the internal Christian divisions. The Latins, well, acted like Latins and many lorded it over the native Orthodox Christian populations:"This utopian scheme came to an end when the Crusaders replaced the Greek patriarchs of Antioch and Jerusalem with Latin prelates, after they had captured these ancient cities (1098–99). Instead of reestablishing Christian unity in the common struggle against Islam, the Crusades demonstrated how far apart Latins and Greeks really were from each other."https://www.britannica.com/topic/Eastern-Orthodoxy

This came to a rather despicable crescendo in the Fourth Crusade when a Latin Christian army sacked and plundered the Orthodox city of Constantinople (not to mention the Catholic city of Zara) without ever touching down anywhere near the Holy Land as per their original mandate.

Currently, in some Muslim countries, Christians don't fair well (especially in the places where Salafi-Wahhabi extremists have solid footing), in others, they aren't doing too badly:http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/jordans-shows-mercy-and-generosity-towards-displaced-christians

We can help the situation by not destabilizing the countries where the central government is looking out for their rights.

As far as looking to Western governments for the rights of Christians; you can put a nail in that coffin by reading up on how the CIA helped friendly governments in South America torture and kill Catholic priests and nuns that were trying to stand up for peasants. Christianity hardly forms the outlook of most of these governments else they wouldn't have their wretched foreign policies.

Protestantism was always a rebellion rooted in hatred of Roman Catholicism.......It has been 500 hundred years of pounding by the great Northern Protestant nations at the foundations of the traditional Christian churches. I don’t think they care if their evil twin Islam strikes the final blow at Rome.

When those same recently civilized Northern Europeans were still Catholics in thrall of Rome they, as crusaders, sacked Orthodox Christian Constantinople on their way to liberating Jerusalem from Islamic occupation. Byzantium was weakened and eventually succumbed to Islam. How does that fit your narrative?

How on earth can anyone refer to Roman Catholicism as traditional Christianity when it is anything but. The Copts and Nazoreans are probably closer to the traditional Christianity and Roman Catholicism is simply a perversion for political benefit that is so widespread due to little more than the sustained violence used to coerce and force people to conform.

Unfortunately the enemies of the Catholic and Orthodox church are succeeding.
Protestantism was always a rebellion rooted in hatred of Roman Catholicism. Islam itself may have been influenced by Arianism which rejects the divinity of Christ. Both wish to destroy traditional Christianity.
So look back over recent history, you will find all the great Protestant nations are sympathetic to Islam, even supporting Islamic radicalism with arms and military support.
These nations England, USA and Germany don't seem to mind at all about the murder of Christians, in fact those Protestants who have morphed into radical atheists I suspect think it is a great idea.
It has been 500 hundred years of pounding by the great Northern Protestant nations at the foundations of the traditional Christian churches. I don't think they care if their evil twin Islam strikes the final blow at Rome.
Perhaps Pat you should consider these ideas before reflecting on the murder of Christians in the Middle East.
Certainly some explanation is needed as to why the great powers and their leaders seem so unmoved by all this persecution of Christians. I have read of no explanation anywhere in the MSM or on other online blogs as to why there is a conspiracy of silence around this widespread murder and persecution.
The greatest defender of Christians in the east was probably a strong Christian Europe who would extract vengeance on Islam for attacks on Orthodox Christians. A secular Europe lead by Protestants like the Lutheran pastors daughter Merkel offers no protection, just silence and platitudes.
These are unfashionable ideas I know, but sometimes truth becomes unfashionable and unmentionable.

Hey PtR,

In my reading of history, rarely are issues ever black and white.

Both wish to destroy traditional Christianity.

Certain Orthodox churches existed only inside Muslim lands for centuries – if they were supposed to be destroyed, we wouldn’t be having a conversation about them now.

Your antagonism against Protestants actually expounds on why Christians often failed on the battlefront and in the age of empires. It is only relatively recently that the various Christian sects have learned to chill about their divisions. For centuries their divisions vociferously denounced and brutally suppressed each other. This was taken advantage of by everybody from the Sassanids, Muslims and even the Mongols. The history of the Coptic Church is a prime example:
“Under the yoke of the Byzantine empire — a continuation of the Roman empire in the east Mediterranean — the Copts were treated very badly. The Byzantines imposed on them an alien patriarch who was sent to Egypt from Constantinople. But in 623 A.D. the Persians captured Egypt as a result of the immense chaos all over the country. The Copts were prevented from practicing their religion, and their human and national rights were denied. Nevertheless, some Copts felt relief because alien Patriarchs were no longer appointed by Byzantium to oppress the Egyptian church…This was a bitter period in which Emperor Heraclius’ only concern was to oppose and shatter the church. He gave orders to transfer Bishop Visas of Asia Minor to Alexandria with power to exercise both ecclesiastical and civil authority. During that period, Pope Benjamin was forced to flee to Scetis…The Arabs marched under Amr Ibn Elaas, reached Egypt at Al Farama on the Red Sea. After a month of fighting they conquered the city and headed west…Amr cancelled the heavy Byzantine taxes and did not ask the Egyptians to pay more than the tribute. He opted to collect reasonably moderate sums of money and differed on this matter with Omar Ibn Al-Khattab (his commander the caliph). He also gave the Egyptians freedom to worship and freely exercise their legal and administrative matters. He appointed some Copts as directors in various districts, yet he exempted them from the military service. In an amicable atmosphere, the Pope met with Amr who showed him esteem and veneration.”

Similar accounts remain from the Eastern Christians, especially non-Chalcedonian sects like the Nestorians who (though not happy at the prospect of a new conquering people) thought the Arabs were sent by God to punish the Byzantines for oppressing them:

The greatest defender of Christians in the east was probably a strong Christian Europe who would extract vengeance on Islam for attacks on Orthodox Christians.

There was a reason that the Crusades, from a strong Christian Europe, failed to wrest the Holy Lands back from the Muslims. Much of this failure lay again in the internal Christian divisions. The Latins, well, acted like Latins and many lorded it over the native Orthodox Christian populations:
“This utopian scheme came to an end when the Crusaders replaced the Greek patriarchs of Antioch and Jerusalem with Latin prelates, after they had captured these ancient cities (1098–99). Instead of reestablishing Christian unity in the common struggle against Islam, the Crusades demonstrated how far apart Latins and Greeks really were from each other.”

This came to a rather despicable crescendo in the Fourth Crusade when a Latin Christian army sacked and plundered the Orthodox city of Constantinople (not to mention the Catholic city of Zara) without ever touching down anywhere near the Holy Land as per their original mandate.

Currently, in some Muslim countries, Christians don’t fair well (especially in the places where Salafi-Wahhabi extremists have solid footing), in others, they aren’t doing too badly:

We can help the situation by not destabilizing the countries where the central government is looking out for their rights.

As far as looking to Western governments for the rights of Christians; you can put a nail in that coffin by reading up on how the CIA helped friendly governments in South America torture and kill Catholic priests and nuns that were trying to stand up for peasants. Christianity hardly forms the outlook of most of these governments else they wouldn’t have their wretched foreign policies.

I do understand that history is messy and rarely flows straight.
I also understand that a house divided cannot stand. But I think ignoring the division is not helping the house to stand, if anything we seem to be collapsing quicker.
After 500 years of the Reformation in Europe though I think we are able to discern some broad themes.
I outlined some of these in a post to Bliss below. Feel free to comment if you want.

that there's been hardly a Christian voice in defiance of the Satanic Eternal Wars and the serial atrocities in Palestine- paint the Christian leadership as den of iniquitous, sniveling vermin

if Christianity does not have leaders of spiritual integrity, then what is left?

why should anyone follow a theology that is promulgated by pedophiles and avaricious, moral cowards?

the true spirit of the West is in our blood. Not in a book or a man with a funny hat.

I honor and respect the Christian people as my brothers and sisters and the best people I know.

but I condemn the Christian leadership as having sat by and watched the Holy Land descend into horrors and madness, so long as there were shekels clinking under their frocks.

Pat Buchanan is one of the good ones, but he's too marinated in the good graces of Catholicism to ever really hold their sacrament to the Metousiosis

the true spirit of the West is in our blood. Not in a book or a man with a funny hat.

You’re worshiping your own asshole. The only difference between you and the left is that you inject race into your arguments. You’re just as nihilistic and dead inside. Europe rejected Christianity a long time ago and it’s become more degenerate and weaker for it. You’ve made a degenerate, corrupt people into your religion because you have a fetish for blond hair. If Europe had been Christian, hadn’t succumbed to birth control, abortion, the analgesic of hedonistic consumerism, they’d still have a culture and and they’d still have their nations. How dumb are you not to see that this is God’s punishment for sin and stupidity. Why does Catholic Poland or Slovakia have no problem resisting muslim refugees while secular Sweden welcomes them? Because the Swedes know that they and their culture are trash and that they deserve to burn. They welcome their invaders because they know the lives they lead aren’t worth living. Deep inside they hate their culture and what they’ve become and they welcome it’s end.

Think about this while you do nothing this Easter like the Jew or Atheist that you are. If any of your ancestors were Christian, think about how you dishonor them by insulting the faith that they lived and died in and through which they enjoy eternal life.

not because of Catholicism, but because Sweden was isolated from the ravages of the wars, Soviet horrors and genocide, and didn't have enough experience with 'the tribe's ravages to be suspicious of them. As Poland and Slovakia (and Russia and Ukraine and Germany, etc..) surly are.

Not so Sweden or farther West, because unlike Hungary or Germany and so many other nations that ingenuously welcomed them in- only to suffer the scorpion's bite of Bolshevik mass murder, genocide and slavery- we in the West are new to this. They only came into the US in large numbers at the beginning of the 19th century, so we Americans were caught off guard. (not that Benjamin Franklin and other didn't try to warn us)

Today its our turn in the Nordic regions and the dying, (murdered) imploding former Anglo empire to suffer their ravages. And all of it with the eager proselytizing for more immigration and 'tolerance' and diversity and homo-worship of the Christian church's leadership.

There's no bigger advocate for unlimited Muslim immigration into Europe and the West than the Pope.

That's why I left Catholicism around 15yrs ago. Not that I was model Catholic as I rarely attended services. But it's shielding of pedophile priests was the last straw. If a religion doesn't protect innocent children from sexual predators then it's useless in my book.

It’s always some Catholic who never went to mass or was Catholic in any meaningful way who writes about leaving the church in outrage. People who say what you say are almost always degenerates who just don’t want to be accountable to any moral authority higher than their own cum. You were probably glad when you read about the abuse scandals because it made you feel justified for whatever you’ve got going on in your own life. We live in an utterly degenerate society were every institution in charge of children abuses children. Show me one study that says abuse rates were higher in the Catholic church than in other denominations or in secular schools. The church is given to us by God but the humans running it are evil and fallible. Do you think this is the first scandal in 2000 years of church history? Did your ancestors go back to worshiping goats and trees in the woods if they didn’t like what a priest did? No, you’re the weak link in the chain. Evil behaviour by popes or priests doesn’t absolve us of our responsibilities as Christians.
You should go to Easter mass tomorrow, at some church at least even if it isn’t Catholic.

It’s always some Catholic who never went to mass or was Catholic in any meaningful way who writes about leaving the church in outrage.

You're probably one of those airheads with many character failings who thinks sitting in a pew on Sunday or going to confession redeems all of your sins and indiscretions.

People who say what you say are almost always degenerates who just don’t want to be accountable to any moral authority higher than their own cum.

No, I left the Church because it steadfastly refused to punish homosexual pedo priests who were victimizing children with their cum. The last I checked America was a free country. You seem like a pretty poor ambassador for Catholicism/Christianity. You're fired.

The church is given to us by God but the humans running it are evil and fallible.

Then get off your butt and do something about it. Demand better and root out the evil instead of wasting your time attacking me. What are you doing to reform the Church and make sure it's a safe space for young boys? That you're probably not doing anything other than downplaying the problem and rationalizing it makes you part of the problem.

Show me one study that says abuse rates were higher in the Catholic church than in other denominations or in secular schools.

The Catholic church shouldn't strive to be merely equal to other denominations regarding the number of degenerate clergy. There should be a zero tolerance policy with regards to abusing children and punitive measures for any clergy members who transgress. The Church utterly failed in rectifying this problem.

That you honor a Pontiff who advocates for left wing social causes and has more or less called for the subsumption and destruction of the white race via mass third world immigration and importation of refugees speaks volumes about you and Christianity today. Being fallible is one thing, but working to destroy the race that gave Catholicism life, defended it with arms and spread its message far and wide is another.

Another tragic aspect is that the Christians in these regions are largely the descendants, genealogically and culturally, of the original civilizations. The Copts in Egypt are the living descendants of ancient Egypt, and the Assyrians and Chaldeans in Iraq and Syria are the living descendants of ancient Mesopotamia. There has been a 1400 year ongoing process of these communities being replaced by Muslim Arabs, a process which may finally be completed in our lifetimes.

Add also to the list, the Berber people of North Africa (Morroco, Algeria, Tunisia) who was replaced by Arabs or thinking they’re Arabs now and forgot their Berber ancestry. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm_o-ULO6hY

French historian Bernard Lugan posted intesting blog posts in French about the Berber in his blog.

Well, in Europe, we rejected Christianity through and through. Christianity is dying in Europe, not only in the Middle East.

We thought we were smarter because we were born later. Who needs Thomas Aquinas when you have reality TV? We mocked and despised Christianity, this fairy tale of old ugly spinsters. We were better, we were more evolved, we were modern!

Old things had to be put in the garbage bin so a New Era of freedom, equality, pleasure and progress could start and take Europeans to the next step of human evolution.

The result of this? Europe being conquered by Islam. We thought we were smarter than people of yesteryear. In reality, we were only a bunch of smug fools who didn't know anything but felt super-smart (Dunning-Kruger effect, google it). The joke is on us.

Europe hasn’t been Christian for a long time. You have these idiots now who want to blame the European degeneracy and moral failure on something Bergogolio said yesterday, but the rot has been there for a long time. Chesterton and Belloc were warning us about it 100 years ago. We were stupid to think that secularism was a replacement for the faith that protected us at Vienna, Tours and Lepanto and that is inextricably bound to last 2000 years of our culture. Belloc wrote that the Faith was Europe and Europe was the Faith and that Europe would return to the faith or Europe would perish. So now we’re watching the terminal phase of a long slow unraveling.

You can be pro-religion and anti-Christian at the same time.You can be pro-Islam and anti-Christian at the same time.You can be pro-Jewish (religion) and anti-Christian: like you are.See how that works?

{Estimated population of the Americas in 1492: 40-100 million.}

Right: that is some estimate.Why not 40-400 million. Or 4-400 million.Every other estimate in your list has one number.That is not an estimate: it is a guess.Nobody really knows how many Native Americans there were in North America before the Europeans showed up.Some people have guesstimated as low as 2 million, some have guesstimated up to 100 million.

Obviously Europeans showing up caused massive changes in the lives of the Natives. But trying to compare the creation of Israel in 1948 to European settlement of NA 500 years ago is desperate.

“You can be pro-religion and anti-Christian at the same time.”

If you are pro-religion, you are supportive of any and all organized religions. That’s me. To each their own. Except, of course, when it comes to radicalism of faith. For example, those who make the claim that “my religion is the best” or “other religions are evil” or “If you don’t believe exactly how I do, you are not a true [insert religion here]“.

“That is not an estimate: it is a guess. Nobody really knows how many Native Americans there were in North America before the Europeans showed up.”

No, it is an estimate made by anthropologists and historians. Regardless, Native Americans had flourishing civilizations. There were tens of millions of them, until greedy Europeans took their land by force in the name of Christianity.

“Obviously Europeans showing up caused massive changes in the lives of the Natives.”

Changes generally detrimental to Natives.

“But trying to compare the creation of Israel in 1948 to European settlement of NA 500 years ago is desperate.”

One could reasonably argue that Israel and Europeans used forced to get what they wanted.
One could reasonably argue that Israel and Europeans believed their religion and culture was superior.

Unfortunately the enemies of the Catholic and Orthodox church are succeeding.
Protestantism was always a rebellion rooted in hatred of Roman Catholicism. Islam itself may have been influenced by Arianism which rejects the divinity of Christ. Both wish to destroy traditional Christianity.
So look back over recent history, you will find all the great Protestant nations are sympathetic to Islam, even supporting Islamic radicalism with arms and military support.
These nations England, USA and Germany don't seem to mind at all about the murder of Christians, in fact those Protestants who have morphed into radical atheists I suspect think it is a great idea.
It has been 500 hundred years of pounding by the great Northern Protestant nations at the foundations of the traditional Christian churches. I don't think they care if their evil twin Islam strikes the final blow at Rome.
Perhaps Pat you should consider these ideas before reflecting on the murder of Christians in the Middle East.
Certainly some explanation is needed as to why the great powers and their leaders seem so unmoved by all this persecution of Christians. I have read of no explanation anywhere in the MSM or on other online blogs as to why there is a conspiracy of silence around this widespread murder and persecution.
The greatest defender of Christians in the east was probably a strong Christian Europe who would extract vengeance on Islam for attacks on Orthodox Christians. A secular Europe lead by Protestants like the Lutheran pastors daughter Merkel offers no protection, just silence and platitudes.
These are unfashionable ideas I know, but sometimes truth becomes unfashionable and unmentionable.

Protestantism was always a rebellion rooted in hatred of Roman Catholicism…….It has been 500 hundred years of pounding by the great Northern Protestant nations at the foundations of the traditional Christian churches. I don’t think they care if their evil twin Islam strikes the final blow at Rome.

When those same recently civilized Northern Europeans were still Catholics in thrall of Rome they, as crusaders, sacked Orthodox Christian Constantinople on their way to liberating Jerusalem from Islamic occupation. Byzantium was weakened and eventually succumbed to Islam. How does that fit your narrative?

It fits fine.
Historical narratives don't flow in straight lines.
I don't think the Roman church would approve of the sacking of Constantinople. But it is not a state with secular authority and has limited power to intervene. It is primarily a spiritual authority. At times of course the Roman church becomes involved in matters of state such as during the time of the Crusades. This I think is unavoidable at times.

But if you are interested in Church and State, then perhaps you should consider that Luther subjugated the church to the state, recommending that nobles should control the church. Basically religion became a tool of the state. Luther was then implicated in the Peasants Rebellion supporting the state as it slaughtered 100, 000 peasants. Over in England the multiple murderer Henry based on Luther's writings started his own church and promptly destroyed all the monasteries of England and handed the land to his nobles. The two largest established Protestant churches no longer follow Jesus, they follow fallen men like Henry and Luther.
They have something in common here with Islam and Mohammed. He also was responsible for murder and his church also follows him and his writings and is also bound inextricably with the state.
I don't think there is any doubt, that Protestantism has led to a massive growth in the power of states and that many people rather than worshiping God have over time become virulent atheists whose faith is based on worship of the state and hatred of traditional Christianity.
All those states that have rejected Christianity the most have been steeped in the most incredible amounts of blood and death, in the case of the Soviets and Nazi's slaughtering millions in the most brutal heartless way imaginable. These states believed totally in the subjugation of the Churches to state authority just as Luther did. Coincidentally anyone who is even a little familiar with the history of Islam will know that it too has been steeped in incredible amounts of blood and suffering as it raided neighboring countries for slaves.

Unfortunately the enemies of the Catholic and Orthodox church are succeeding.
Protestantism was always a rebellion rooted in hatred of Roman Catholicism. Islam itself may have been influenced by Arianism which rejects the divinity of Christ. Both wish to destroy traditional Christianity.
So look back over recent history, you will find all the great Protestant nations are sympathetic to Islam, even supporting Islamic radicalism with arms and military support.
These nations England, USA and Germany don't seem to mind at all about the murder of Christians, in fact those Protestants who have morphed into radical atheists I suspect think it is a great idea.
It has been 500 hundred years of pounding by the great Northern Protestant nations at the foundations of the traditional Christian churches. I don't think they care if their evil twin Islam strikes the final blow at Rome.
Perhaps Pat you should consider these ideas before reflecting on the murder of Christians in the Middle East.
Certainly some explanation is needed as to why the great powers and their leaders seem so unmoved by all this persecution of Christians. I have read of no explanation anywhere in the MSM or on other online blogs as to why there is a conspiracy of silence around this widespread murder and persecution.
The greatest defender of Christians in the east was probably a strong Christian Europe who would extract vengeance on Islam for attacks on Orthodox Christians. A secular Europe lead by Protestants like the Lutheran pastors daughter Merkel offers no protection, just silence and platitudes.
These are unfashionable ideas I know, but sometimes truth becomes unfashionable and unmentionable.

How on earth can anyone refer to Roman Catholicism as traditional Christianity when it is anything but. The Copts and Nazoreans are probably closer to the traditional Christianity and Roman Catholicism is simply a perversion for political benefit that is so widespread due to little more than the sustained violence used to coerce and force people to conform.

Protestantism was always a rebellion rooted in hatred of Roman Catholicism.......It has been 500 hundred years of pounding by the great Northern Protestant nations at the foundations of the traditional Christian churches. I don’t think they care if their evil twin Islam strikes the final blow at Rome.

When those same recently civilized Northern Europeans were still Catholics in thrall of Rome they, as crusaders, sacked Orthodox Christian Constantinople on their way to liberating Jerusalem from Islamic occupation. Byzantium was weakened and eventually succumbed to Islam. How does that fit your narrative?

It fits fine.
Historical narratives don’t flow in straight lines.
I don’t think the Roman church would approve of the sacking of Constantinople. But it is not a state with secular authority and has limited power to intervene. It is primarily a spiritual authority. At times of course the Roman church becomes involved in matters of state such as during the time of the Crusades. This I think is unavoidable at times.

But if you are interested in Church and State, then perhaps you should consider that Luther subjugated the church to the state, recommending that nobles should control the church. Basically religion became a tool of the state. Luther was then implicated in the Peasants Rebellion supporting the state as it slaughtered 100, 000 peasants. Over in England the multiple murderer Henry based on Luther’s writings started his own church and promptly destroyed all the monasteries of England and handed the land to his nobles. The two largest established Protestant churches no longer follow Jesus, they follow fallen men like Henry and Luther.
They have something in common here with Islam and Mohammed. He also was responsible for murder and his church also follows him and his writings and is also bound inextricably with the state.
I don’t think there is any doubt, that Protestantism has led to a massive growth in the power of states and that many people rather than worshiping God have over time become virulent atheists whose faith is based on worship of the state and hatred of traditional Christianity.
All those states that have rejected Christianity the most have been steeped in the most incredible amounts of blood and death, in the case of the Soviets and Nazi’s slaughtering millions in the most brutal heartless way imaginable. These states believed totally in the subjugation of the Churches to state authority just as Luther did. Coincidentally anyone who is even a little familiar with the history of Islam will know that it too has been steeped in incredible amounts of blood and suffering as it raided neighboring countries for slaves.

Anyone who does a cursory study of the thoughts of men like Aquinas and Augustine can see that the Catholic Church (CC) had zero problems running the state and using the state in aid of or enforcement of religious dictates - one needs only look up their views on why blasphemy/heresy ought to carry a temporal punishment. One can also look up the historical Papal States for another reference.

Is this unique to them? Not by a long shot. The current state of things is actually the anomaly. In the pre-modern world (most of human history) it was a given that church/temple/mosque and state go hand in hand - this was true in non-Abrahamic faiths also. In the East, various monarchs and emperors derived their authority by being the champion or defender of one or another form of Buddhism which was the state religion - this is still currently the case for the King of Thailand. In the Sassanid Empire, Zoroastranism formed the imperial cult to which the emperor had to defer. As for adoption of Confucianism by Chinese emperors, I'm not sure it is a religion more so than a set of principles to organize a successful society, and thus absolutely linked with governance.

The current level of separation of church and state in the West (and largely unique to it) is a direct result of the Reformation and its extremely bloody fallout which was stemmed at Westphalia. I will also agree with you that the Reformation (by breaking with the tradition of the CC) set the eventual path (centuries later after the philosophies of the 18th century) for the level of atheism/agnosticism we see in the West. Can it be rolled back? Not sure. But the Europe/West that comes out of it being rolled back will not likely resemble what we see today. Keep in mind, the CC also prohibited interest/usury for centuries before throwing in the towel on an issue that has tremendous consequences for our current economic framework.

In its defense, the Reformation made claims of the excesses of the CC - claims that were not without foundation. I'm just going over history here - not my fight - Europe/West will have to figure it out. I will agree that I don't see a path for a European future (or any other people) without a solid spiritual foundation; trending towards materialism/atheism seems to put any people's population into a nosedive.

Islam will know that it too has been steeped in incredible amounts of blood and suffering as it raided neighboring countries for slaves.

Again, historically, the CC was hardly guiltless in this regard. We have records of Papal Bulls authorizing these raids in African or Muslim territories - here is one granted to the Portuguese:"We [therefore] weighing all and singular the premises with due meditation, and noting that since we had formerly by other letters of ours granted among other things free and ample faculty to the aforesaid King Alfonso—to invade, search out, capture, vanquish, and subdue all Saracens and pagans whatsoever, and other enemies of Christ wheresoever placed, and the kingdoms, dukedoms, principalities, dominions, possessions, and all movable and immovable goods whatsoever held and possessed by them and to reduce their persons to perpetual slavery."http://ldhi.library.cofc.edu/exhibits/show/african_laborers_for_a_new_emp/pope_nicolas_v_and_the_portugu

"Early raids such as the one made by Gonçalvez and Tristão in 1441 were unusual, and may have only been possible because the Portuguese had never previously raided south of Cape Bojador. Portuguese mariners soon learned that inhabitants along the Upper Guinea coast were more than capable of defending themselves from such incursions. Not long after his 1441 voyage, Tristão and most of his crew were killed off the coast of present-day Senegal."(same reference as above - as they used to say in the hood - "Guard your grill!")

So, it wasn't from a position of moral qualms that Christian countries did not have the same record for slave raiding - they were simply not as good at it as the Muslims were.

the true spirit of the West is in our blood. Not in a book or a man with a funny hat.

You're worshiping your own asshole. The only difference between you and the left is that you inject race into your arguments. You're just as nihilistic and dead inside. Europe rejected Christianity a long time ago and it's become more degenerate and weaker for it. You've made a degenerate, corrupt people into your religion because you have a fetish for blond hair. If Europe had been Christian, hadn't succumbed to birth control, abortion, the analgesic of hedonistic consumerism, they'd still have a culture and and they'd still have their nations. How dumb are you not to see that this is God's punishment for sin and stupidity. Why does Catholic Poland or Slovakia have no problem resisting muslim refugees while secular Sweden welcomes them? Because the Swedes know that they and their culture are trash and that they deserve to burn. They welcome their invaders because they know the lives they lead aren't worth living. Deep inside they hate their culture and what they've become and they welcome it's end.

Think about this while you do nothing this Easter like the Jew or Atheist that you are. If any of your ancestors were Christian, think about how you dishonor them by insulting the faith that they lived and died in and through which they enjoy eternal life.

One can feel the spirit of love and devotion to Christ in every word you’ve written. Thanks so much.

Certain Orthodox churches existed only inside Muslim lands for centuries - if they were supposed to be destroyed, we wouldn't be having a conversation about them now.

Your antagonism against Protestants actually expounds on why Christians often failed on the battlefront and in the age of empires. It is only relatively recently that the various Christian sects have learned to chill about their divisions. For centuries their divisions vociferously denounced and brutally suppressed each other. This was taken advantage of by everybody from the Sassanids, Muslims and even the Mongols. The history of the Coptic Church is a prime example:"Under the yoke of the Byzantine empire -- a continuation of the Roman empire in the east Mediterranean -- the Copts were treated very badly. The Byzantines imposed on them an alien patriarch who was sent to Egypt from Constantinople. But in 623 A.D. the Persians captured Egypt as a result of the immense chaos all over the country. The Copts were prevented from practicing their religion, and their human and national rights were denied. Nevertheless, some Copts felt relief because alien Patriarchs were no longer appointed by Byzantium to oppress the Egyptian church...This was a bitter period in which Emperor Heraclius' only concern was to oppose and shatter the church. He gave orders to transfer Bishop Visas of Asia Minor to Alexandria with power to exercise both ecclesiastical and civil authority. During that period, Pope Benjamin was forced to flee to Scetis...The Arabs marched under Amr Ibn Elaas, reached Egypt at Al Farama on the Red Sea. After a month of fighting they conquered the city and headed west...Amr cancelled the heavy Byzantine taxes and did not ask the Egyptians to pay more than the tribute. He opted to collect reasonably moderate sums of money and differed on this matter with Omar Ibn Al-Khattab (his commander the caliph). He also gave the Egyptians freedom to worship and freely exercise their legal and administrative matters. He appointed some Copts as directors in various districts, yet he exempted them from the military service. In an amicable atmosphere, the Pope met with Amr who showed him esteem and veneration."http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/synexarion/benjamen.html

Similar accounts remain from the Eastern Christians, especially non-Chalcedonian sects like the Nestorians who (though not happy at the prospect of a new conquering people) thought the Arabs were sent by God to punish the Byzantines for oppressing them:http://www.upenn.edu/pennpress/book/15378.html

The greatest defender of Christians in the east was probably a strong Christian Europe who would extract vengeance on Islam for attacks on Orthodox Christians.

There was a reason that the Crusades, from a strong Christian Europe, failed to wrest the Holy Lands back from the Muslims. Much of this failure lay again in the internal Christian divisions. The Latins, well, acted like Latins and many lorded it over the native Orthodox Christian populations:"This utopian scheme came to an end when the Crusaders replaced the Greek patriarchs of Antioch and Jerusalem with Latin prelates, after they had captured these ancient cities (1098–99). Instead of reestablishing Christian unity in the common struggle against Islam, the Crusades demonstrated how far apart Latins and Greeks really were from each other."https://www.britannica.com/topic/Eastern-Orthodoxy

This came to a rather despicable crescendo in the Fourth Crusade when a Latin Christian army sacked and plundered the Orthodox city of Constantinople (not to mention the Catholic city of Zara) without ever touching down anywhere near the Holy Land as per their original mandate.

Currently, in some Muslim countries, Christians don't fair well (especially in the places where Salafi-Wahhabi extremists have solid footing), in others, they aren't doing too badly:http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/jordans-shows-mercy-and-generosity-towards-displaced-christians

We can help the situation by not destabilizing the countries where the central government is looking out for their rights.

As far as looking to Western governments for the rights of Christians; you can put a nail in that coffin by reading up on how the CIA helped friendly governments in South America torture and kill Catholic priests and nuns that were trying to stand up for peasants. Christianity hardly forms the outlook of most of these governments else they wouldn't have their wretched foreign policies.

Peace.

Thanks Talha for your reply.

I do understand that history is messy and rarely flows straight.
I also understand that a house divided cannot stand. But I think ignoring the division is not helping the house to stand, if anything we seem to be collapsing quicker.
After 500 years of the Reformation in Europe though I think we are able to discern some broad themes.
I outlined some of these in a post to Bliss below. Feel free to comment if you want.

that there's been hardly a Christian voice in defiance of the Satanic Eternal Wars and the serial atrocities in Palestine- paint the Christian leadership as den of iniquitous, sniveling vermin

if Christianity does not have leaders of spiritual integrity, then what is left?

why should anyone follow a theology that is promulgated by pedophiles and avaricious, moral cowards?

the true spirit of the West is in our blood. Not in a book or a man with a funny hat.

I honor and respect the Christian people as my brothers and sisters and the best people I know.

but I condemn the Christian leadership as having sat by and watched the Holy Land descend into horrors and madness, so long as there were shekels clinking under their frocks.

Pat Buchanan is one of the good ones, but he's too marinated in the good graces of Catholicism to ever really hold their sacrament to the Metousiosis

..why should anyone follow a theology that is promulgated by pedophiles and avaricious, moral cowards?

The theology (faith) was in place long before the pedophiles and cowards showed up. Remember the Russian Orthodox metropolitan was once a KGB agent. That didn’t change the faith the people were following.

“Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? (My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?)” Those are among Jesus’ last words on the Cross that first Good Friday.

No doubt there are transcripts to prove this, possibly video, albeit only on papyrus format.

This is where Pat goes off the rails completely. The Christian narrative is simply that of previous Sun deities retold. The Pagan Christ is a really informative book with an alternative understanding but there are lots more. Bishop John Shelby Spong believes Christianity will simply disappear due to the focus on silly nonsensical stories. I tend to agree and there are increasingly lots of empty pews to back that up.

Meanwhile the Really Big Brains over at the Pentagon dropped a $16,000,000 bomb and killed approx 36 jihadis. Those guys really know how to fight a war. Good job for America those "boys" keep their pencils really sharp. Could it be that these tools are actually out to destroy America's military by attrition?

People still spews Sponge’s hateful nonsense. They are objective allies of the jihadis. Christian blood is on their hands. The justification of jihadis’ crimes (and of the ‘atheists’ of old) by the ‘silly nonsensical stories’ which empty the Churches is beyond disgusting.

Indeed the last words of the Christ on the Cross are a not a cry of despair, far from that. It is a quotation from the Psalm 21 (in the Orthodox numbering) which is one of the ‘messianic psalms’ which prophetically describes every moment of the Passion, the rejection of the Christ and announces his final victory:

“1 [For the end, concerning the morning aid, a Psalm of David.] O God, my God, attend to me: why hast thou forsaken me? the account of my transgressions is far from my salvation. 2 O my God, I will cry to thee by day, but thou wilt not hear: and by night, and [it shall] not [be accounted] for folly to me. 3 But thou, the praise of Israel, dwellest in a sanctuary. 4 Our fathers hoped in thee; they hoped, and thou didst deliver them. 5 They cried to thee, and were saved: they hoped in thee, and were not ashamed. 6 But I am a worm, and not a man; a reproach of men, and scorn of the people. 7 All that saw me mocked me: they spoke with [their] lips, they shook the head, [saying], 8 He hoped in the Lord: let him deliver him, let him save him, because he takes pleasure in him. 9 For thou art he that drew me out of the womb; my hope from my mother’s breasts. 10 I was cast on thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother’s belly. 11 Stand not aloof from me; for affliction is near; for there is no helper. 12 Many bullocks have compassed me: fat bulls have beset me round. 13 They have opened their mouth against me, as a ravening and roaring lion. 14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are loosened: my heart in the midst of my belly is become like melting wax. 15 My strength is dried up, like a potsherd; and my tongue is glued to my throat; and thou hast brought me down to the dust of death. 16 For many dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked doers has beset me round: they pierced my hands and my feet. 17 They counted all my bones; and they observed and looked upon me. 18 They parted my garments [among] themselves, and cast lots upon my raiment. 19 But thou, O Lord, remove not my help afar off: be ready for mine aid. 20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my only-begotten one from the power of the dog. 21 Save me from the lion’s mouth; and [regard] my lowliness from the horns of the unicorns. 22 I will declare thy name to my brethren: in the midst of the church will I sing praise to thee. 23 Ye that fear the Lord, praise him; all ye seed of Jacob, glorify him: let all the seed of Israel fear him. 24 For he has not despised nor been angry at the supplication of the poor; nor turned away his face from me; but when I cried to him, he heard me. 25 My praise is of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him. 26 The poor shall eat and be satisfied; and they shall praise the Lord that seek him: their heart shall live for ever. 27 All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the Lord: and all the kindred of the nations shall worship before him. 28 For the kingdom is the Lord’s; and he is the governor of the nations. 29 All the fat ones of the earth have eaten and worshipped: all that go down to the earth shall fall down before him: my soul also lives to him. 30 And my seed shall serve him: the generation that is coming shall be reported to the Lord. 31 And they shall report his righteousness to the people that shall be born, whom the Lord has made”.

The Gentile centurion and those with him understood what the Jews did not:

“And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? 47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias. 48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink. 49 The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him. 50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. 54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God” (Matthew 27:46-54).

To wit:
“Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you [Jews]: The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation [ethnos=the Gentiles represented by the Roman centurion] bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. 45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. 46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet” (Matthew 21:42-46).

“Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? (My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?)” Those are among Jesus’ last words on the Cross that first Good Friday.

No doubt there are transcripts to prove this, possibly video, albeit only on papyrus format.

This is where Pat goes off the rails completely. The Christian narrative is simply that of previous Sun deities retold. The Pagan Christ is a really informative book with an alternative understanding but there are lots more. Bishop John Shelby Spong believes Christianity will simply disappear due to the focus on silly nonsensical stories. I tend to agree and there are increasingly lots of empty pews to back that up.

Meanwhile the Really Big Brains over at the Pentagon dropped a $16,000,000 bomb and killed approx 36 jihadis. Those guys really know how to fight a war. Good job for America those "boys" keep their pencils really sharp. Could it be that these tools are actually out to destroy America's military by attrition?

Could it be that these tools are actually out to destroy America’s military by attrition?

Killing G.I.s is the only thing they’ve succeeded at in the last 100 years, direction of the trend appears ominous, particularly with women now eligible for the draft.

This article shows that there is still moral courage in the West even though this quality is becoming very rare.
Despite many smart commentaries, it is weird how many commentators including Mr. Pat Buchanan have missed the central theme and aim of the onslaught on the remaining Christians in the birth place of Christianity.
It is no secret for most Middle Eastern Christians that they are the most important target of the ‘Clash of Civilzation’ heralded by Samuel Huntington a disciple of none other but Leo Strauss, a Jewish supremacist whose loyalty to modern Zionism is without a blemish.
In fact it would be simplistic to view the war against Middle Easten Christians as an isolated event as the war has much larger aims in the service of Jewish supremacy. Let us recall the cultural vandalism that started with the American invasion of Iraq the cradle of civilisation in 2003, when the Baghdad National Museum was looted by the mobs with its priceless pieces appearing throughout the world to be traded without impunity by Jewish art dealers. This act of barbaric recklessness coincided with the full protection of the Ministry of Petrolium by the American officials in charge of the post Saddam Iraq. As of lately, we have witnessed the demolition of statues that date back to the Assyrian and Chaldean period by the Islamic State who are nothing more than an extension of the NATO forces and the Israeli Mossad and the CIA.
So the war against Christianity is a tactic in the greater war against the Middle East as the powers that be have no tolerance whatsoever to the grey colours where Christians and Moslems have by and large survived peacefully for 1400 years. The erasure of the vestiges of the Middle East will be a boon to the Greater Israel project which will materialise once the ancient people of the Middle East had been pushed out of the area to be absorbed by the rest of the world and especially Europe.
As for the reaction of the so called ‘Christian West’, one does not require a great power of observation to notice that the West is anything but Christian and it is more of a Judeaised West which worships materialism and debauchery in a land where your ticket to power and fortune is to kowtow to the Zionist Jews.
So is the fate of the Middle Eastern Christians a precursor to the fate of other Christians world wide? By looking at the state of Christianity, from the emasculated Catholic Church to the semi judeaised Protestant Church to the totally irrelevant Anglican Church with its purely political purpose, we hope that the Orthodox Church will be the last true bastion of Christianity, a wish coming from a Catholic by birth.

"Let us recall the cultural vandalism that started with the American invasion of Iraq the cradle of civilisation in 2003, when the Baghdad National Museum was looted by the mobs with its priceless pieces appearing throughout the world to be traded without impunity by Jewish art dealers."

That's not entirely accurate.

http://www.meforum.org/609/museum-madness-in-baghdad

So, I'm sure you have the statistics on hand. Who were these Jews? Were they arrested? What were their punishments? How many non-Jew art dealers also faced consequences?

It fits fine.
Historical narratives don't flow in straight lines.
I don't think the Roman church would approve of the sacking of Constantinople. But it is not a state with secular authority and has limited power to intervene. It is primarily a spiritual authority. At times of course the Roman church becomes involved in matters of state such as during the time of the Crusades. This I think is unavoidable at times.

But if you are interested in Church and State, then perhaps you should consider that Luther subjugated the church to the state, recommending that nobles should control the church. Basically religion became a tool of the state. Luther was then implicated in the Peasants Rebellion supporting the state as it slaughtered 100, 000 peasants. Over in England the multiple murderer Henry based on Luther's writings started his own church and promptly destroyed all the monasteries of England and handed the land to his nobles. The two largest established Protestant churches no longer follow Jesus, they follow fallen men like Henry and Luther.
They have something in common here with Islam and Mohammed. He also was responsible for murder and his church also follows him and his writings and is also bound inextricably with the state.
I don't think there is any doubt, that Protestantism has led to a massive growth in the power of states and that many people rather than worshiping God have over time become virulent atheists whose faith is based on worship of the state and hatred of traditional Christianity.
All those states that have rejected Christianity the most have been steeped in the most incredible amounts of blood and death, in the case of the Soviets and Nazi's slaughtering millions in the most brutal heartless way imaginable. These states believed totally in the subjugation of the Churches to state authority just as Luther did. Coincidentally anyone who is even a little familiar with the history of Islam will know that it too has been steeped in incredible amounts of blood and suffering as it raided neighboring countries for slaves.

Hey PtR,

Few thoughts…

Anyone who does a cursory study of the thoughts of men like Aquinas and Augustine can see that the Catholic Church (CC) had zero problems running the state and using the state in aid of or enforcement of religious dictates – one needs only look up their views on why blasphemy/heresy ought to carry a temporal punishment. One can also look up the historical Papal States for another reference.

Is this unique to them? Not by a long shot. The current state of things is actually the anomaly. In the pre-modern world (most of human history) it was a given that church/temple/mosque and state go hand in hand – this was true in non-Abrahamic faiths also. In the East, various monarchs and emperors derived their authority by being the champion or defender of one or another form of Buddhism which was the state religion – this is still currently the case for the King of Thailand. In the Sassanid Empire, Zoroastranism formed the imperial cult to which the emperor had to defer. As for adoption of Confucianism by Chinese emperors, I’m not sure it is a religion more so than a set of principles to organize a successful society, and thus absolutely linked with governance.

The current level of separation of church and state in the West (and largely unique to it) is a direct result of the Reformation and its extremely bloody fallout which was stemmed at Westphalia. I will also agree with you that the Reformation (by breaking with the tradition of the CC) set the eventual path (centuries later after the philosophies of the 18th century) for the level of atheism/agnosticism we see in the West. Can it be rolled back? Not sure. But the Europe/West that comes out of it being rolled back will not likely resemble what we see today. Keep in mind, the CC also prohibited interest/usury for centuries before throwing in the towel on an issue that has tremendous consequences for our current economic framework.

In its defense, the Reformation made claims of the excesses of the CC – claims that were not without foundation. I’m just going over history here – not my fight – Europe/West will have to figure it out. I will agree that I don’t see a path for a European future (or any other people) without a solid spiritual foundation; trending towards materialism/atheism seems to put any people’s population into a nosedive.

Islam will know that it too has been steeped in incredible amounts of blood and suffering as it raided neighboring countries for slaves.

Again, historically, the CC was hardly guiltless in this regard. We have records of Papal Bulls authorizing these raids in African or Muslim territories – here is one granted to the Portuguese:
“We [therefore] weighing all and singular the premises with due meditation, and noting that since we had formerly by other letters of ours granted among other things free and ample faculty to the aforesaid King Alfonso—to invade, search out, capture, vanquish, and subdue all Saracens and pagans whatsoever, and other enemies of Christ wheresoever placed, and the kingdoms, dukedoms, principalities, dominions, possessions, and all movable and immovable goods whatsoever held and possessed by them and to reduce their persons to perpetual slavery.”

“Early raids such as the one made by Gonçalvez and Tristão in 1441 were unusual, and may have only been possible because the Portuguese had never previously raided south of Cape Bojador. Portuguese mariners soon learned that inhabitants along the Upper Guinea coast were more than capable of defending themselves from such incursions. Not long after his 1441 voyage, Tristão and most of his crew were killed off the coast of present-day Senegal.”
(same reference as above – as they used to say in the hood – “Guard your grill!”)

So, it wasn’t from a position of moral qualms that Christian countries did not have the same record for slave raiding – they were simply not as good at it as the Muslims were.

On suppressing peoples opinion it is true of course. And yet consider Moore's Utopia. Free thought was allowed with reservations. Consider Luther prior to the peasants revolt. Free conscience was the ideal,only when freedom was grasped by peasants did Luther perhaps realize that free thought for nobles largely depended on the servitude of peasants. (Incidentally the powerful still struggle with this, how they can be free to live their life without any restraint, while restraining the peasants from the same freedoms. They have pretty much decided it is safer to corrupt the peasants beyond all reason.)

I don't claim to be scholar, but even to me it seems there is an emphasis on conscience and free choice in Christian thought as you would expect from a religion which aspires to conversion by word.

The problem of course is that states enforced these restrictions particularly in Spain and Italy because there the dangers from Islam, were more acute, particularly in Spain were a large Jewish population had the opportunity to collude in opposition to the Catholic state. The northern states were insulated.

It's true though Catholic's favor restricting thought to a degree, perhaps they realized the powerful would use such freedoms to exploit the poor, and the poor would fight back causing much bloodshed and suffering. If that is so they would have been correct given the violent history of the last 500 years.

Like anything there are shades. But the fact that Luther in his writings specifically made the reformed church subservient to the German nobles, or consider the French revolution, it insisted on the right to approve church appointments. What of the evil Henry, he simply took the monasteries by force to break Catholic independence. How about modern Italy, where the Papacy had no home for a number of years. It insisted on a separate state within a state before it would finalize any agreement.

All based on one simple sentence "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, Gods what is God's".

Jesus set up the universal Catholic church on Peter the rock in Rome. It is so plainly evident, that the Catholic church has believed this as unassailable truth through the ages and sought to maintain distance from the powerful. In contrast Luther and the Anglicans gave their independence away and threw themselves down like dogs before swine.

In truth Talha, the very existence of the reformed churches depends on the survival of Rome. If the independent Catholic church fell, it's moral authority would fall, and the reformed churches would be altered in a short space of time beyond all recognition. Evil would flourish to a greater extent than now which is really saying something.

On slavery TalhaMost of my information comes from two books, "For the Glory of God" by revisionist socioligist turned historian Rodney Stark and "In Defence of Faith" by the Jewish writer David Brog who came to the defence of Christianity during the years of The New Atheists. Two really fascinating books based in history which discuss slavery in a Christian context. David Brog's book is not so well known as the first which is a terrible shame because it excellent.

One of the clearest indications about slavery and the Catholic Church concerns again the Reformation. After this the strength of the church was greatly diminished and slavery the worst types in particular made a comeback in Northern Europe, not Europe itself but its colonies where the type of slavery was chattel slavery, where an owner had almost total ownership including children and their very life, incredibly brutal and evil.

In Southern European colonies in South America slavery was practiced by the Spanish landowners but opposed by the catholic church who ameliorated the institution. Slaves could marry, their children were their own, they had Sunday free from work, they could earn their freedom.

The Catholic church opposed slavery but post Reformation all Christian churches were greatly weakened. It would take Wilberforce to destroy slavery again at its heart, England. But incidentally slavery through these centuries even after the Reformation never occurred in Europe, except for the one example you gave, concerning Saracens.

The example you gave concerning slavery is completely atypical in that it relates to Saracens, Muslims. The reason it was allowed to enslave them was in retaliation because so many Europeans were being kidnapped and enslaved by Islam into the worst form of slavery, chattel slavery. All those stories of harems and eunuchs were true, Islam for centuries on a very large scale in India and Africa kidnapped by force for slaves, probably in the millions. I am pretty sure only Saracens caught slaving could be so reduced, there was no slave market as such in Southern Europe.

During these centuries Islam made very few technological innovations which is true of all slaving societies which have little need to innovate, as manual labor is undertaken by slaves.

In contrast in Europe slavery was virtually abolished by the fifth or sixth century, and thereafter Europeans relied on technology to ease manual labor. A string of amazing technological innovations thereafter propelled Europe far beyond any other country. One of the reasons for this was clearly the end of slavery.

It was the Catholic church which abolished slavery in Europe an incredible achievement for civilization and lessening human cruelty and suffering in the world. With the minor exception of Saracens who were enslaving Europeans.

This article shows that there is still moral courage in the West even though this quality is becoming very rare.
Despite many smart commentaries, it is weird how many commentators including Mr. Pat Buchanan have missed the central theme and aim of the onslaught on the remaining Christians in the birth place of Christianity.
It is no secret for most Middle Eastern Christians that they are the most important target of the 'Clash of Civilzation' heralded by Samuel Huntington a disciple of none other but Leo Strauss, a Jewish supremacist whose loyalty to modern Zionism is without a blemish.
In fact it would be simplistic to view the war against Middle Easten Christians as an isolated event as the war has much larger aims in the service of Jewish supremacy. Let us recall the cultural vandalism that started with the American invasion of Iraq the cradle of civilisation in 2003, when the Baghdad National Museum was looted by the mobs with its priceless pieces appearing throughout the world to be traded without impunity by Jewish art dealers. This act of barbaric recklessness coincided with the full protection of the Ministry of Petrolium by the American officials in charge of the post Saddam Iraq. As of lately, we have witnessed the demolition of statues that date back to the Assyrian and Chaldean period by the Islamic State who are nothing more than an extension of the NATO forces and the Israeli Mossad and the CIA.
So the war against Christianity is a tactic in the greater war against the Middle East as the powers that be have no tolerance whatsoever to the grey colours where Christians and Moslems have by and large survived peacefully for 1400 years. The erasure of the vestiges of the Middle East will be a boon to the Greater Israel project which will materialise once the ancient people of the Middle East had been pushed out of the area to be absorbed by the rest of the world and especially Europe.
As for the reaction of the so called 'Christian West', one does not require a great power of observation to notice that the West is anything but Christian and it is more of a Judeaised West which worships materialism and debauchery in a land where your ticket to power and fortune is to kowtow to the Zionist Jews.
So is the fate of the Middle Eastern Christians a precursor to the fate of other Christians world wide? By looking at the state of Christianity, from the emasculated Catholic Church to the semi judeaised Protestant Church to the totally irrelevant Anglican Church with its purely political purpose, we hope that the Orthodox Church will be the last true bastion of Christianity, a wish coming from a Catholic by birth.

“Let us recall the cultural vandalism that started with the American invasion of Iraq the cradle of civilisation in 2003, when the Baghdad National Museum was looted by the mobs with its priceless pieces appearing throughout the world to be traded without impunity by Jewish art dealers.”

I am positive that no one can give accurate statistics about the illegal trade in arts anymore than one can give an accurate assessment of money laundering. The Isrealis did occupy Lebanon and it is a fact they stole a great deal of ancient art crafts. As for the world of art dealing, I do not need to demonstrate who controls this profession.
I appreciate your contribution at setting the record straight with respect to this sad chapter in the history of the Middle East.

Well, most of the comments are off-topic, including intelligent indifference, bait-and-switch and tasteless jokes. Not all, thankfully, but then one can not really expect a widespread sense of brotherhood from atheists or Muslims.

So that answers Buchanan's question, with its mild implied call to reflection and perhaps some solidarity with Christians in the Middle East.

And yet, because truth and hope exist, Happy Easter.

And yet, because truth and hope exist, Happy Easter.

yes they do, and a very warm and heartfelt Happy Easter to you and yours Veritatis,

for me, God has always meant = love

(organized religion or not)

if your heart is kind and your soul filled with grace, it doesn’t matter I suppose too much on which religion you believe, but the words and the actions of Jesus Christ were as close to what I’d consider the perfect expression of human perfection. If a man ever was the embodiment of Truth and Love and Justice and Beautify, then surely He was it.

God bless

I’ll leave you with these words ~

And seeing the multitudes, He went up into a mountain: and when He was set, His disciples came unto Him:

And He opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

~ it’s because of words like this, and also because He took them (the Fiend) on, and sacrificed His life for us, that I consider him the perfect expression of Love

“for me, God has always meant = love...
if your heart is kind and your soul filled with grace, it doesn’t matter I suppose too much on which religion you believe, but the words and the actions of Jesus Christ were as close to what I’d consider the perfect expression of human perfection...”

“even if you take them at their word, the Holocaust was done as humanely as it’s was humanly possible to kill people. Sort of like the Soylent Green euthanasia scene the violins were playing as they were handed a towel to take a ‘shower’, and then the death was as benign as could be arranged under the circumstances. And that was their worst case scenario of the gas chambers...Compare that to Dresden, which is undisputed and was as calculatedly cruel and sadistic as it was possible to imagine. And then some.”
“and yet it’s the Germans who everyone condemns for inhumanity”

"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. "

I always respect someone willing to quote the Bible outside religious circles in these learned pagan times. Very counter-cultural! But maybe something of the radical christian message echoes within? A very Happy Easter to you too.

"Let us recall the cultural vandalism that started with the American invasion of Iraq the cradle of civilisation in 2003, when the Baghdad National Museum was looted by the mobs with its priceless pieces appearing throughout the world to be traded without impunity by Jewish art dealers."

That's not entirely accurate.

http://www.meforum.org/609/museum-madness-in-baghdad

So, I'm sure you have the statistics on hand. Who were these Jews? Were they arrested? What were their punishments? How many non-Jew art dealers also faced consequences?

I am positive that no one can give accurate statistics about the illegal trade in arts anymore than one can give an accurate assessment of money laundering. The Isrealis did occupy Lebanon and it is a fact they stole a great deal of ancient art crafts. As for the world of art dealing, I do not need to demonstrate who controls this profession.
I appreciate your contribution at setting the record straight with respect to this sad chapter in the history of the Middle East.

"I am positive that no one can give accurate statistics about the illegal trade in arts anymore than one can give an accurate assessment of money laundering."

So, in other words, you made a claim you cannot lend evidence to. You were confident that Jews played an integral role in selling art stolen during the Iraq War (2003), and now when asked to offer proof, you essentially back down.

"As for the world of art dealing, I do not need to demonstrate who controls this profession."

Actually, you do. What is the percentage for Jews and non-Jews?

"By looking at the state of Christianity, from the emasculated Catholic Church to the semi judeaised Protestant Church to the totally irrelevant Anglican Church with its purely political purpose,"

How do YOU know these things are "facts"?

"we hope that the Orthodox Church will be the last true bastion of Christianity, a wish coming from a Catholic by birth."

YOU hope. But tens of millions of Christians would argue they are practicing the faith "truthfully".

I am positive that no one can give accurate statistics about the illegal trade in arts anymore than one can give an accurate assessment of money laundering. The Isrealis did occupy Lebanon and it is a fact they stole a great deal of ancient art crafts. As for the world of art dealing, I do not need to demonstrate who controls this profession.
I appreciate your contribution at setting the record straight with respect to this sad chapter in the history of the Middle East.

“I am positive that no one can give accurate statistics about the illegal trade in arts anymore than one can give an accurate assessment of money laundering.”

So, in other words, you made a claim you cannot lend evidence to. You were confident that Jews played an integral role in selling art stolen during the Iraq War (2003), and now when asked to offer proof, you essentially back down.

“As for the world of art dealing, I do not need to demonstrate who controls this profession.”

Actually, you do. What is the percentage for Jews and non-Jews?

“By looking at the state of Christianity, from the emasculated Catholic Church to the semi judeaised Protestant Church to the totally irrelevant Anglican Church with its purely political purpose,”

How do YOU know these things are “facts”?

“we hope that the Orthodox Church will be the last true bastion of Christianity, a wish coming from a Catholic by birth.”

YOU hope. But tens of millions of Christians would argue they are practicing the faith “truthfully”.

"So, in other words, you made a claim you cannot lend evidence to. You were confident that Jews played an integral role in selling art stolen during the Iraq War (2003), and now when asked to offer proof, you essentially back down.""YOU hope. But tens of millions of Christians would argue they are practicing the faith “truthfully”.There is no doubt that Westerners try to follow a path of accurate footnoting whereby stating any fact has to be referenced to a certain source.Well here in the Middle East, we do rely on common sense and on hunch for if referencing and footnotes can lend a degree of credence to the article, it is by no means a full proof of accuracy especially when such referencing depends on fake mainstream media.When Bush boy made his claim of weapons of mass destruction against Iraq, we knew without doubt that this claim was bogus without waiting for the Iraqi tragedy to unfold, while many in the West went along with the false claim without asking for full proof evidence. When ISIS came into the scene, our experience with Western intelligence and Western imperialism made us come to the accurate conclusion that this whole movement was nothing than a Western intelligence psy-op without going through the excessive research and documentation that Westerners love to engage in.A lot of intelligence derives from anecdotal evidence, and about Jewish dealers engaging in the sale of Baghdad Museum, the news came to me from many friends who travel around the world and it was mentioned on news media though a lot of time have passed since to give the accurate reference.As for those Christians and the way they practice their faith, I never contested or doubted their Christian faith. But since religion and politics are closely intertwined, I look for the position of the particular church's hierarchy with respect to social issues like war and imperial induced mayhem and it is a fact that the Russian Orthodox Church has been at the forefront of defenders of religious minorities from the ever unfolding tragedy that has afflicted those minorities in the Middle East.

Another virtue of the Russian Orthidox Church, is that it is the most effective Christian church at shielding family values from the encroachment of the so called 'secular' state which is constantly trying to dominate the upbringing of the new generations by a calculated process of inculcating the new wave of political correctness into their green brains so they could never call a spade a spade.

By the way, I missed asking you in the above commentary about your position vis a vis the George bush claims about Iraqi weapons of mass destruction. Did you insist that the American President backs his claims with facts? I am not testing you but I would be interested to know.
Also if someone claims on social media that Wall Street is dominated by Jews or the American sport industry is dominated by blacks, would you ask him/her to provide the percentages or the factual evidence. I would guess that you would not since any such person with a life to live would refrain from such trivial pursuits.
Western quantitative analysis aided by computers and scenario management has been the way to engage in policy analysis for decades but have proven to be abject failures on many instances from economic to war policies. On the other hand a dose of common sense based on integrity would come a long way at preventing disastrous policies.

yes they do, and a very warm and heartfelt Happy Easter to you and yours Veritatis,

for me, God has always meant = love

(organized religion or not)

if your heart is kind and your soul filled with grace, it doesn't matter I suppose too much on which religion you believe, but the words and the actions of Jesus Christ were as close to what I'd consider the perfect expression of human perfection. If a man ever was the embodiment of Truth and Love and Justice and Beautify, then surely He was it.

God bless

I'll leave you with these words ~

And seeing the multitudes, He went up into a mountain: and when He was set, His disciples came unto Him:

And He opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

~ it's because of words like this, and also because He took them (the Fiend) on, and sacrificed His life for us, that I consider him the perfect expression of Love

“for me, God has always meant = love…
if your heart is kind and your soul filled with grace, it doesn’t matter I suppose too much on which religion you believe, but the words and the actions of Jesus Christ were as close to what I’d consider the perfect expression of human perfection…”

“even if you take them at their word, the Holocaust was done as humanely as it’s was humanly possible to kill people. Sort of like the Soylent Green euthanasia scene the violins were playing as they were handed a towel to take a ‘shower’, and then the death was as benign as could be arranged under the circumstances. And that was their worst case scenario of the gas chambers…Compare that to Dresden, which is undisputed and was as calculatedly cruel and sadistic as it was possible to imagine. And then some.”
“and yet it’s the Germans who everyone condemns for inhumanity”

wow, that's the second time that obscure quote of mine has been resurrected from the ancient past

I don't think the Christ would be handing out towels, but I also don't think he'd be deliberately starving whole families do death slowly and sadistically like the (Jewish) NDVD did to the (Christian) Kulaks by the millions.

That quote of mine was simply to point out the respective cruelty (or lack there of) for some of the more well-known (if exaggerated) atrocities from our more recent human history.

let me ask you..

was the death of a Ukrainian farmer any less tragic/evil than a death at Auschwitz?

Well, we can't be sure about the state of Rurik's soul, but we do know a venomous, mean-spirited comment when we read one. Well done. Was it the "seek that which is above" message or the imperfect messenger, one wonders?

It's always some Catholic who never went to mass or was Catholic in any meaningful way who writes about leaving the church in outrage. People who say what you say are almost always degenerates who just don't want to be accountable to any moral authority higher than their own cum. You were probably glad when you read about the abuse scandals because it made you feel justified for whatever you've got going on in your own life. We live in an utterly degenerate society were every institution in charge of children abuses children. Show me one study that says abuse rates were higher in the Catholic church than in other denominations or in secular schools. The church is given to us by God but the humans running it are evil and fallible. Do you think this is the first scandal in 2000 years of church history? Did your ancestors go back to worshiping goats and trees in the woods if they didn't like what a priest did? No, you're the weak link in the chain. Evil behaviour by popes or priests doesn't absolve us of our responsibilities as Christians.
You should go to Easter mass tomorrow, at some church at least even if it isn't Catholic.

It’s always some Catholic who never went to mass or was Catholic in any meaningful way who writes about leaving the church in outrage.

You’re probably one of those airheads with many character failings who thinks sitting in a pew on Sunday or going to confession redeems all of your sins and indiscretions.

People who say what you say are almost always degenerates who just don’t want to be accountable to any moral authority higher than their own cum.

No, I left the Church because it steadfastly refused to punish homosexual pedo priests who were victimizing children with their cum. The last I checked America was a free country. You seem like a pretty poor ambassador for Catholicism/Christianity. You’re fired.

The church is given to us by God but the humans running it are evil and fallible.

Then get off your butt and do something about it. Demand better and root out the evil instead of wasting your time attacking me. What are you doing to reform the Church and make sure it’s a safe space for young boys? That you’re probably not doing anything other than downplaying the problem and rationalizing it makes you part of the problem.

Show me one study that says abuse rates were higher in the Catholic church than in other denominations or in secular schools.

The Catholic church shouldn’t strive to be merely equal to other denominations regarding the number of degenerate clergy. There should be a zero tolerance policy with regards to abusing children and punitive measures for any clergy members who transgress. The Church utterly failed in rectifying this problem.

That you honor a Pontiff who advocates for left wing social causes and has more or less called for the subsumption and destruction of the white race via mass third world immigration and importation of refugees speaks volumes about you and Christianity today. Being fallible is one thing, but working to destroy the race that gave Catholicism life, defended it with arms and spread its message far and wide is another.

The stupefying success of the anti-Catholic propaganda of the 'child abuse' resulting in the cascade of well publicized apostasies by the zombies convinced that they alone occupy the 'high moral ground' can't be explained without the prior relentless brainwashing campaign for the destruction of the Church (of all 'organized religions' for that matter) which date at least to the time of the Protestant revolution. The slandering of the clergy, depicting it as corrupt, cruel sanguinary molesters of children, which would raise waves of hysterical 'moral indignation', was one of the weapons of choice. It becomes ridiculous when you mix the 'defense of the white race' into the soup.

What would happen if Muslim Christians were being adopted? Would you support that noble endeavor?

Now, of course, no invasion is taking place, and these fine organizations are merely embracing the word of God. You have a perverted view of faith.

"Pastors encourage the adoption of Africans by couples instead of natural procreation."

And we ought to be thanking them for saving souls, especially those white couples who are unable to have their own children. So, how does it personally impact YOU if infant black boys and girls are given a home?

"Perhaps there is hope in the various Eastern Orthodox churches, but mainstream Protestant and Roman Catholic churches appear at the present time to be hopelessly “cucked.”

Cucked, now that is a useless meme. Would Jesus Christ utter that phrase today?

If you are pro-religion, you are supportive of any and all organized religions. That's me. To each their own. Except, of course, when it comes to radicalism of faith. For example, those who make the claim that "my religion is the best" or "other religions are evil" or "If you don't believe exactly how I do, you are not a true [insert religion here]".

"That is not an estimate: it is a guess. Nobody really knows how many Native Americans there were in North America before the Europeans showed up."

No, it is an estimate made by anthropologists and historians. Regardless, Native Americans had flourishing civilizations. There were tens of millions of them, until greedy Europeans took their land by force in the name of Christianity.

"Obviously Europeans showing up caused massive changes in the lives of the Natives."

Changes generally detrimental to Natives.

"But trying to compare the creation of Israel in 1948 to European settlement of NA 500 years ago is desperate."

One could reasonably argue that Israel and Europeans used forced to get what they wanted. One could reasonably argue that Israel and Europeans believed their religion and culture was superior.

"I am positive that no one can give accurate statistics about the illegal trade in arts anymore than one can give an accurate assessment of money laundering."

So, in other words, you made a claim you cannot lend evidence to. You were confident that Jews played an integral role in selling art stolen during the Iraq War (2003), and now when asked to offer proof, you essentially back down.

"As for the world of art dealing, I do not need to demonstrate who controls this profession."

Actually, you do. What is the percentage for Jews and non-Jews?

"By looking at the state of Christianity, from the emasculated Catholic Church to the semi judeaised Protestant Church to the totally irrelevant Anglican Church with its purely political purpose,"

How do YOU know these things are "facts"?

"we hope that the Orthodox Church will be the last true bastion of Christianity, a wish coming from a Catholic by birth."

YOU hope. But tens of millions of Christians would argue they are practicing the faith "truthfully".

“So, in other words, you made a claim you cannot lend evidence to. You were confident that Jews played an integral role in selling art stolen during the Iraq War (2003), and now when asked to offer proof, you essentially back down.”
“YOU hope. But tens of millions of Christians would argue they are practicing the faith “truthfully”.
There is no doubt that Westerners try to follow a path of accurate footnoting whereby stating any fact has to be referenced to a certain source.
Well here in the Middle East, we do rely on common sense and on hunch for if referencing and footnotes can lend a degree of credence to the article, it is by no means a full proof of accuracy especially when such referencing depends on fake mainstream media.
When Bush boy made his claim of weapons of mass destruction against Iraq, we knew without doubt that this claim was bogus without waiting for the Iraqi tragedy to unfold, while many in the West went along with the false claim without asking for full proof evidence. When ISIS came into the scene, our experience with Western intelligence and Western imperialism made us come to the accurate conclusion that this whole movement was nothing than a Western intelligence psy-op without going through the excessive research and documentation that Westerners love to engage in.
A lot of intelligence derives from anecdotal evidence, and about Jewish dealers engaging in the sale of Baghdad Museum, the news came to me from many friends who travel around the world and it was mentioned on news media though a lot of time have passed since to give the accurate reference.
As for those Christians and the way they practice their faith, I never contested or doubted their Christian faith. But since religion and politics are closely intertwined, I look for the position of the particular church’s hierarchy with respect to social issues like war and imperial induced mayhem and it is a fact that the Russian Orthodox Church has been at the forefront of defenders of religious minorities from the ever unfolding tragedy that has afflicted those minorities in the Middle East.

“There is no doubt that Westerners try to follow a path of accurate footnoting whereby stating any fact has to be referenced to a certain source.”

No, PEOPLE who make accusations, then are asked by other PEOLE to back it up, follow this path. It is not a “westerner” issue.

“...it is by no means a full proof of accuracy especially when such referencing depends on fake mainstream media.”

Intellectual laziness on display here. How conenient for people to merely label

“A lot of intelligence derives from anecdotal evidence, and about Jewish dealers engaging in the sale of Baghdad Museum, the news came to me from many friends who travel around the world and it was mentioned on news media though a lot of time have passed since to give the accurate reference.”

First, the intelligence community relies on more on trends, patterns, and data than anecdotal evidence when making their decisions. Second, anecdotal evidence is problematic considering that it is subject to confirmation bias. While I am sure there were Jews who partook in selling precious stolen from Baghdad, your generalization, in order to be taken legitimately, requires more than stories you heard.

“it is a fact that the Russian Orthodox Church has been at the forefront of defenders of religious minorities from the ever unfolding tragedy that has afflicted those minorities in the Middle East.”

“In July, Russian President Vladimir Putin signed a new law that cracks down on missionary work and evangelism. Among other things, it mandates that people share their religious beliefs only at state-registered places of worship. Critics say the law, which was approved as part of a swath of “anti-extremism and terrorism” legislation, contradicts Russia’s post-Soviet constitution, which guarantees citizens and foreigners the right to disseminate their religious beliefs. “Soviet history shows us how many people of different faiths have been persecuted for spreading the word of God,” wrote Sergei Ryakhovsky, head of the Protestant Churches of Russia, in an open letter to Putin. “This law brings us back to that shameful past.”

“Another virtue of the Russian Orthidox Church, is that it is the most effective Christian church at shielding family values from the encroachment of the so called ‘secular’ state”.

America is predicated on the concept of separation of church and state. To the majority of our citizens, the ROC would be deemed “meddlesome “in our political affairs.

“Did you insist that the American President backs his claims with facts? I am not testing you but I would be interested to know.”

He used the available evidence given to him and made the decision to invade Iraq. I was not a proponent then or now of our military action there, especially since facts were “missing" or "massaged". It is even more imperative that you offer proof demonstrating the extent of Jewish art dealership involvement in this pillaging of Iraq, lest you be characterized in the same vein as George Bush.

"I am positive that no one can give accurate statistics about the illegal trade in arts anymore than one can give an accurate assessment of money laundering."

So, in other words, you made a claim you cannot lend evidence to. You were confident that Jews played an integral role in selling art stolen during the Iraq War (2003), and now when asked to offer proof, you essentially back down.

"As for the world of art dealing, I do not need to demonstrate who controls this profession."

Actually, you do. What is the percentage for Jews and non-Jews?

"By looking at the state of Christianity, from the emasculated Catholic Church to the semi judeaised Protestant Church to the totally irrelevant Anglican Church with its purely political purpose,"

How do YOU know these things are "facts"?

"we hope that the Orthodox Church will be the last true bastion of Christianity, a wish coming from a Catholic by birth."

YOU hope. But tens of millions of Christians would argue they are practicing the faith "truthfully".

Another virtue of the Russian Orthidox Church, is that it is the most effective Christian church at shielding family values from the encroachment of the so called ‘secular’ state which is constantly trying to dominate the upbringing of the new generations by a calculated process of inculcating the new wave of political correctness into their green brains so they could never call a spade a spade.

"I am positive that no one can give accurate statistics about the illegal trade in arts anymore than one can give an accurate assessment of money laundering."

So, in other words, you made a claim you cannot lend evidence to. You were confident that Jews played an integral role in selling art stolen during the Iraq War (2003), and now when asked to offer proof, you essentially back down.

"As for the world of art dealing, I do not need to demonstrate who controls this profession."

Actually, you do. What is the percentage for Jews and non-Jews?

"By looking at the state of Christianity, from the emasculated Catholic Church to the semi judeaised Protestant Church to the totally irrelevant Anglican Church with its purely political purpose,"

How do YOU know these things are "facts"?

"we hope that the Orthodox Church will be the last true bastion of Christianity, a wish coming from a Catholic by birth."

YOU hope. But tens of millions of Christians would argue they are practicing the faith "truthfully".

By the way, I missed asking you in the above commentary about your position vis a vis the George bush claims about Iraqi weapons of mass destruction. Did you insist that the American President backs his claims with facts? I am not testing you but I would be interested to know.
Also if someone claims on social media that Wall Street is dominated by Jews or the American sport industry is dominated by blacks, would you ask him/her to provide the percentages or the factual evidence. I would guess that you would not since any such person with a life to live would refrain from such trivial pursuits.
Western quantitative analysis aided by computers and scenario management has been the way to engage in policy analysis for decades but have proven to be abject failures on many instances from economic to war policies. On the other hand a dose of common sense based on integrity would come a long way at preventing disastrous policies.

It’s always some Catholic who never went to mass or was Catholic in any meaningful way who writes about leaving the church in outrage.

You're probably one of those airheads with many character failings who thinks sitting in a pew on Sunday or going to confession redeems all of your sins and indiscretions.

People who say what you say are almost always degenerates who just don’t want to be accountable to any moral authority higher than their own cum.

No, I left the Church because it steadfastly refused to punish homosexual pedo priests who were victimizing children with their cum. The last I checked America was a free country. You seem like a pretty poor ambassador for Catholicism/Christianity. You're fired.

The church is given to us by God but the humans running it are evil and fallible.

Then get off your butt and do something about it. Demand better and root out the evil instead of wasting your time attacking me. What are you doing to reform the Church and make sure it's a safe space for young boys? That you're probably not doing anything other than downplaying the problem and rationalizing it makes you part of the problem.

Show me one study that says abuse rates were higher in the Catholic church than in other denominations or in secular schools.

The Catholic church shouldn't strive to be merely equal to other denominations regarding the number of degenerate clergy. There should be a zero tolerance policy with regards to abusing children and punitive measures for any clergy members who transgress. The Church utterly failed in rectifying this problem.

That you honor a Pontiff who advocates for left wing social causes and has more or less called for the subsumption and destruction of the white race via mass third world immigration and importation of refugees speaks volumes about you and Christianity today. Being fallible is one thing, but working to destroy the race that gave Catholicism life, defended it with arms and spread its message far and wide is another.

The stupefying success of the anti-Catholic propaganda of the ‘child abuse’ resulting in the cascade of well publicized apostasies by the zombies convinced that they alone occupy the ‘high moral ground’ can’t be explained without the prior relentless brainwashing campaign for the destruction of the Church (of all ‘organized religions’ for that matter) which date at least to the time of the Protestant revolution. The slandering of the clergy, depicting it as corrupt, cruel sanguinary molesters of children, which would raise waves of hysterical ‘moral indignation’, was one of the weapons of choice. It becomes ridiculous when you mix the ‘defense of the white race’ into the soup.

Anyone who does a cursory study of the thoughts of men like Aquinas and Augustine can see that the Catholic Church (CC) had zero problems running the state and using the state in aid of or enforcement of religious dictates - one needs only look up their views on why blasphemy/heresy ought to carry a temporal punishment. One can also look up the historical Papal States for another reference.

Is this unique to them? Not by a long shot. The current state of things is actually the anomaly. In the pre-modern world (most of human history) it was a given that church/temple/mosque and state go hand in hand - this was true in non-Abrahamic faiths also. In the East, various monarchs and emperors derived their authority by being the champion or defender of one or another form of Buddhism which was the state religion - this is still currently the case for the King of Thailand. In the Sassanid Empire, Zoroastranism formed the imperial cult to which the emperor had to defer. As for adoption of Confucianism by Chinese emperors, I'm not sure it is a religion more so than a set of principles to organize a successful society, and thus absolutely linked with governance.

The current level of separation of church and state in the West (and largely unique to it) is a direct result of the Reformation and its extremely bloody fallout which was stemmed at Westphalia. I will also agree with you that the Reformation (by breaking with the tradition of the CC) set the eventual path (centuries later after the philosophies of the 18th century) for the level of atheism/agnosticism we see in the West. Can it be rolled back? Not sure. But the Europe/West that comes out of it being rolled back will not likely resemble what we see today. Keep in mind, the CC also prohibited interest/usury for centuries before throwing in the towel on an issue that has tremendous consequences for our current economic framework.

In its defense, the Reformation made claims of the excesses of the CC - claims that were not without foundation. I'm just going over history here - not my fight - Europe/West will have to figure it out. I will agree that I don't see a path for a European future (or any other people) without a solid spiritual foundation; trending towards materialism/atheism seems to put any people's population into a nosedive.

Islam will know that it too has been steeped in incredible amounts of blood and suffering as it raided neighboring countries for slaves.

Again, historically, the CC was hardly guiltless in this regard. We have records of Papal Bulls authorizing these raids in African or Muslim territories - here is one granted to the Portuguese:"We [therefore] weighing all and singular the premises with due meditation, and noting that since we had formerly by other letters of ours granted among other things free and ample faculty to the aforesaid King Alfonso—to invade, search out, capture, vanquish, and subdue all Saracens and pagans whatsoever, and other enemies of Christ wheresoever placed, and the kingdoms, dukedoms, principalities, dominions, possessions, and all movable and immovable goods whatsoever held and possessed by them and to reduce their persons to perpetual slavery."http://ldhi.library.cofc.edu/exhibits/show/african_laborers_for_a_new_emp/pope_nicolas_v_and_the_portugu

"Early raids such as the one made by Gonçalvez and Tristão in 1441 were unusual, and may have only been possible because the Portuguese had never previously raided south of Cape Bojador. Portuguese mariners soon learned that inhabitants along the Upper Guinea coast were more than capable of defending themselves from such incursions. Not long after his 1441 voyage, Tristão and most of his crew were killed off the coast of present-day Senegal."(same reference as above - as they used to say in the hood - "Guard your grill!")

So, it wasn't from a position of moral qualms that Christian countries did not have the same record for slave raiding - they were simply not as good at it as the Muslims were.

Peace.

Thanks Talha

I don’t have many problems with what you write.

On suppressing peoples opinion it is true of course. And yet consider Moore’s Utopia. Free thought was allowed with reservations. Consider Luther prior to the peasants revolt. Free conscience was the ideal,only when freedom was grasped by peasants did Luther perhaps realize that free thought for nobles largely depended on the servitude of peasants. (Incidentally the powerful still struggle with this, how they can be free to live their life without any restraint, while restraining the peasants from the same freedoms. They have pretty much decided it is safer to corrupt the peasants beyond all reason.)

I don’t claim to be scholar, but even to me it seems there is an emphasis on conscience and free choice in Christian thought as you would expect from a religion which aspires to conversion by word.

The problem of course is that states enforced these restrictions particularly in Spain and Italy because there the dangers from Islam, were more acute, particularly in Spain were a large Jewish population had the opportunity to collude in opposition to the Catholic state. The northern states were insulated.

It’s true though Catholic’s favor restricting thought to a degree, perhaps they realized the powerful would use such freedoms to exploit the poor, and the poor would fight back causing much bloodshed and suffering. If that is so they would have been correct given the violent history of the last 500 years.

Anyone who does a cursory study of the thoughts of men like Aquinas and Augustine can see that the Catholic Church (CC) had zero problems running the state and using the state in aid of or enforcement of religious dictates - one needs only look up their views on why blasphemy/heresy ought to carry a temporal punishment. One can also look up the historical Papal States for another reference.

Is this unique to them? Not by a long shot. The current state of things is actually the anomaly. In the pre-modern world (most of human history) it was a given that church/temple/mosque and state go hand in hand - this was true in non-Abrahamic faiths also. In the East, various monarchs and emperors derived their authority by being the champion or defender of one or another form of Buddhism which was the state religion - this is still currently the case for the King of Thailand. In the Sassanid Empire, Zoroastranism formed the imperial cult to which the emperor had to defer. As for adoption of Confucianism by Chinese emperors, I'm not sure it is a religion more so than a set of principles to organize a successful society, and thus absolutely linked with governance.

The current level of separation of church and state in the West (and largely unique to it) is a direct result of the Reformation and its extremely bloody fallout which was stemmed at Westphalia. I will also agree with you that the Reformation (by breaking with the tradition of the CC) set the eventual path (centuries later after the philosophies of the 18th century) for the level of atheism/agnosticism we see in the West. Can it be rolled back? Not sure. But the Europe/West that comes out of it being rolled back will not likely resemble what we see today. Keep in mind, the CC also prohibited interest/usury for centuries before throwing in the towel on an issue that has tremendous consequences for our current economic framework.

In its defense, the Reformation made claims of the excesses of the CC - claims that were not without foundation. I'm just going over history here - not my fight - Europe/West will have to figure it out. I will agree that I don't see a path for a European future (or any other people) without a solid spiritual foundation; trending towards materialism/atheism seems to put any people's population into a nosedive.

Islam will know that it too has been steeped in incredible amounts of blood and suffering as it raided neighboring countries for slaves.

Again, historically, the CC was hardly guiltless in this regard. We have records of Papal Bulls authorizing these raids in African or Muslim territories - here is one granted to the Portuguese:"We [therefore] weighing all and singular the premises with due meditation, and noting that since we had formerly by other letters of ours granted among other things free and ample faculty to the aforesaid King Alfonso—to invade, search out, capture, vanquish, and subdue all Saracens and pagans whatsoever, and other enemies of Christ wheresoever placed, and the kingdoms, dukedoms, principalities, dominions, possessions, and all movable and immovable goods whatsoever held and possessed by them and to reduce their persons to perpetual slavery."http://ldhi.library.cofc.edu/exhibits/show/african_laborers_for_a_new_emp/pope_nicolas_v_and_the_portugu

"Early raids such as the one made by Gonçalvez and Tristão in 1441 were unusual, and may have only been possible because the Portuguese had never previously raided south of Cape Bojador. Portuguese mariners soon learned that inhabitants along the Upper Guinea coast were more than capable of defending themselves from such incursions. Not long after his 1441 voyage, Tristão and most of his crew were killed off the coast of present-day Senegal."(same reference as above - as they used to say in the hood - "Guard your grill!")

So, it wasn't from a position of moral qualms that Christian countries did not have the same record for slave raiding - they were simply not as good at it as the Muslims were.

Peace.

“The current level of separation of church and state in the West”

Like anything there are shades. But the fact that Luther in his writings specifically made the reformed church subservient to the German nobles, or consider the French revolution, it insisted on the right to approve church appointments. What of the evil Henry, he simply took the monasteries by force to break Catholic independence. How about modern Italy, where the Papacy had no home for a number of years. It insisted on a separate state within a state before it would finalize any agreement.

All based on one simple sentence “render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s, Gods what is God’s”.

Jesus set up the universal Catholic church on Peter the rock in Rome. It is so plainly evident, that the Catholic church has believed this as unassailable truth through the ages and sought to maintain distance from the powerful. In contrast Luther and the Anglicans gave their independence away and threw themselves down like dogs before swine.

In truth Talha, the very existence of the reformed churches depends on the survival of Rome. If the independent Catholic church fell, it’s moral authority would fall, and the reformed churches would be altered in a short space of time beyond all recognition. Evil would flourish to a greater extent than now which is really saying something.

{History repeats itself…our past wave of ethnic cleansing of tribal groups from the Americas was initiated by the criminal invasion of European “Christian” nations.}

No, it doesn't.

Another vain attempt by an anti-Christian Israel-firster bigot to conflate - let's call it - the 'situation' in Israel, established on known lands already populated, with the discovery of Americas by Europeans, and settlement of lands that appeared to be barely populated or not populated at all.

I’m confused – how did Israel get in to this? The article is about the declining populations of Christians in Iraq, Syria, and Egypt.

If the idea was to draw a parallel between the fate of the natives of the Americas and the Arabs who live in Israel, that is ridiculous. First of all, Native American populations declined by about 90% following conquest, while the Arabs who have in recent decades adopted the moniker “Palestinian” have increased by about a factor of 10 since the supposed conquest of their region by Israel. Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, Arabs are not indigenous to the Levant, including Israel – they conquered the region from farther South.

Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, Arabs are not indigenous to the Levant, including Israel – they conquered the region from farther South.

There are two types of people that are lumped under "Arab":1) Someone who can link back their lineage to one of the original Arab tribes; Bani Tamim, Bani Hashim, Bani Taghlib, Bani Ghifar, Bani Qays etc. - there are not many of these people and most people who are called Arabs, would not qualify. These are the original butt-kickers of Byzantium for sure.2) A people who took on the Arabic language - these are Arabic speakers, more so than actual Arabs as the classical Arabs would consider themselves. For instance, my sister in law (Swedish background) studied and teaches Arabic at a university level - she is NOT an Arab.

This shift occurred during the Abbassid era as the language of administration was shifted to Arabic and various populations (non-Muslims as well) adopted it, either as lingua franca or their primary language.

There is no doubt that the current population of Arabs (Palestinian and others) are indigenous to the region as genetic studies have shown - genetically, Palestinians are more indigenous than European Jews (unless one thinks Italians and French are more native to the Levant):"The closest genetic neighbors to most Jewish groups were the Palestinians, Israeli Bedouins, and Druze in addition to the Southern Europeans, including Cypriots...The closest genetic relatives of the Middle Eastern Jews are Druze, Bedouin and Palestinians. The closest genetic relatives of the European group of Jews are Northern Italians, followed by Sardinians and French."http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/science/1.681385

"So, in other words, you made a claim you cannot lend evidence to. You were confident that Jews played an integral role in selling art stolen during the Iraq War (2003), and now when asked to offer proof, you essentially back down.""YOU hope. But tens of millions of Christians would argue they are practicing the faith “truthfully”.There is no doubt that Westerners try to follow a path of accurate footnoting whereby stating any fact has to be referenced to a certain source.Well here in the Middle East, we do rely on common sense and on hunch for if referencing and footnotes can lend a degree of credence to the article, it is by no means a full proof of accuracy especially when such referencing depends on fake mainstream media.When Bush boy made his claim of weapons of mass destruction against Iraq, we knew without doubt that this claim was bogus without waiting for the Iraqi tragedy to unfold, while many in the West went along with the false claim without asking for full proof evidence. When ISIS came into the scene, our experience with Western intelligence and Western imperialism made us come to the accurate conclusion that this whole movement was nothing than a Western intelligence psy-op without going through the excessive research and documentation that Westerners love to engage in.A lot of intelligence derives from anecdotal evidence, and about Jewish dealers engaging in the sale of Baghdad Museum, the news came to me from many friends who travel around the world and it was mentioned on news media though a lot of time have passed since to give the accurate reference.As for those Christians and the way they practice their faith, I never contested or doubted their Christian faith. But since religion and politics are closely intertwined, I look for the position of the particular church's hierarchy with respect to social issues like war and imperial induced mayhem and it is a fact that the Russian Orthodox Church has been at the forefront of defenders of religious minorities from the ever unfolding tragedy that has afflicted those minorities in the Middle East.

“There is no doubt that Westerners try to follow a path of accurate footnoting whereby stating any fact has to be referenced to a certain source.”

No, PEOPLE who make accusations, then are asked by other PEOLE to back it up, follow this path. It is not a “westerner” issue.

“…it is by no means a full proof of accuracy especially when such referencing depends on fake mainstream media.”

Intellectual laziness on display here. How conenient for people to merely label

“A lot of intelligence derives from anecdotal evidence, and about Jewish dealers engaging in the sale of Baghdad Museum, the news came to me from many friends who travel around the world and it was mentioned on news media though a lot of time have passed since to give the accurate reference.”

First, the intelligence community relies on more on trends, patterns, and data than anecdotal evidence when making their decisions. Second, anecdotal evidence is problematic considering that it is subject to confirmation bias. While I am sure there were Jews who partook in selling precious stolen from Baghdad, your generalization, in order to be taken legitimately, requires more than stories you heard.

“it is a fact that the Russian Orthodox Church has been at the forefront of defenders of religious minorities from the ever unfolding tragedy that has afflicted those minorities in the Middle East.”

“In July, Russian President Vladimir Putin signed a new law that cracks down on missionary work and evangelism. Among other things, it mandates that people share their religious beliefs only at state-registered places of worship. Critics say the law, which was approved as part of a swath of “anti-extremism and terrorism” legislation, contradicts Russia’s post-Soviet constitution, which guarantees citizens and foreigners the right to disseminate their religious beliefs. “Soviet history shows us how many people of different faiths have been persecuted for spreading the word of God,” wrote Sergei Ryakhovsky, head of the Protestant Churches of Russia, in an open letter to Putin. “This law brings us back to that shameful past.”

“Another virtue of the Russian Orthidox Church, is that it is the most effective Christian church at shielding family values from the encroachment of the so called ‘secular’ state”.

America is predicated on the concept of separation of church and state. To the majority of our citizens, the ROC would be deemed “meddlesome “in our political affairs.

“Did you insist that the American President backs his claims with facts? I am not testing you but I would be interested to know.”

He used the available evidence given to him and made the decision to invade Iraq. I was not a proponent then or now of our military action there, especially since facts were “missing” or “massaged”. It is even more imperative that you offer proof demonstrating the extent of Jewish art dealership involvement in this pillaging of Iraq, lest you be characterized in the same vein as George Bush.

"America is predicated on the concept of separation of church and state"
When you look at how political decisions are made by a great body of American legislators in general but more so by the Zionist Christians, you should wonder how much the concept of seperation of church and state is fact or fiction. George W Busch has invoked God and bible more than I can count in his speeches in which he defended his imperial wars going to the extent of calling his invasion of Iraq a " crusade" which did not go well with many Moslems in the Middle East. However, I am not sure which God George W is referring to considering his background as a member of the Skulls and Bones society, the sublime God of love or the Master of the Universe.
" It is even more imperative that you offer proof demonstrating the extent of Jewish art dealership involvement in this pillaging of Iraq, lest you be characterized in the same vein as George Busch"
If history is any guide, there are two important books about the looting of arts in Russia after the Bolshevic revolution by largely Jewish dealers. One such book is ' Under the Sign of the Scorpion' by Jury Lina and another one was the Memoirs of the Armand Hammer which I read during my young days when I was an admirer of such Illuminatus Mamonites. I agree with you that such a precedent does not necessarily prove the case of implicating Jewish art dealers in the case of the Baghdad museum. Yet stealing arts is dwarfed by the big theft of the whole country of Palestine which is far more meaningful for the subject of the article.
As for what the Russian state decrees with respect to freedom of religion, I am in no position to defend such actions, even though I do have some understanding of the caution of Russia with respect to foreign missionaries and NGO's considering the sad reality of the post Soviet Union under Yeltsin. I will simply state that the Orthodox Church did not have the equivalent of Vatican II and it has refused to compromise the basic tenets of Christianity to please the Jews. Here I would recommend the excellent book by Israel Shamir ' Cabbala of Power' in which the author dwells on the subject of the relationship between Jews and the different Christian churches in a professional and unbiased way.
"First, the intelligence community relies on more on trends, patterns, and data than anecdotal evidence when making their decisions"
Yet if we consider the claims of intelligence agencies before the Iraq invasion, the expectations that Iraqis will meet the American conqueror with flowers and open arms proves that this failure of intelligence is due mainly to reliance on anecdotal evidence that was never properly vetted.
I would finally admit that my comment should have been edited in a way to avoid generalisations, yet the purpose of my comment was not to highlight who was behind the Iraqi Museum robbery but the wider subject of the deformation of the Middle East from demographic and cultural angles for the sake of imperial aims by the West or the Israelis.

Anyone who does a cursory study of the thoughts of men like Aquinas and Augustine can see that the Catholic Church (CC) had zero problems running the state and using the state in aid of or enforcement of religious dictates - one needs only look up their views on why blasphemy/heresy ought to carry a temporal punishment. One can also look up the historical Papal States for another reference.

Is this unique to them? Not by a long shot. The current state of things is actually the anomaly. In the pre-modern world (most of human history) it was a given that church/temple/mosque and state go hand in hand - this was true in non-Abrahamic faiths also. In the East, various monarchs and emperors derived their authority by being the champion or defender of one or another form of Buddhism which was the state religion - this is still currently the case for the King of Thailand. In the Sassanid Empire, Zoroastranism formed the imperial cult to which the emperor had to defer. As for adoption of Confucianism by Chinese emperors, I'm not sure it is a religion more so than a set of principles to organize a successful society, and thus absolutely linked with governance.

The current level of separation of church and state in the West (and largely unique to it) is a direct result of the Reformation and its extremely bloody fallout which was stemmed at Westphalia. I will also agree with you that the Reformation (by breaking with the tradition of the CC) set the eventual path (centuries later after the philosophies of the 18th century) for the level of atheism/agnosticism we see in the West. Can it be rolled back? Not sure. But the Europe/West that comes out of it being rolled back will not likely resemble what we see today. Keep in mind, the CC also prohibited interest/usury for centuries before throwing in the towel on an issue that has tremendous consequences for our current economic framework.

In its defense, the Reformation made claims of the excesses of the CC - claims that were not without foundation. I'm just going over history here - not my fight - Europe/West will have to figure it out. I will agree that I don't see a path for a European future (or any other people) without a solid spiritual foundation; trending towards materialism/atheism seems to put any people's population into a nosedive.

Islam will know that it too has been steeped in incredible amounts of blood and suffering as it raided neighboring countries for slaves.

Again, historically, the CC was hardly guiltless in this regard. We have records of Papal Bulls authorizing these raids in African or Muslim territories - here is one granted to the Portuguese:"We [therefore] weighing all and singular the premises with due meditation, and noting that since we had formerly by other letters of ours granted among other things free and ample faculty to the aforesaid King Alfonso—to invade, search out, capture, vanquish, and subdue all Saracens and pagans whatsoever, and other enemies of Christ wheresoever placed, and the kingdoms, dukedoms, principalities, dominions, possessions, and all movable and immovable goods whatsoever held and possessed by them and to reduce their persons to perpetual slavery."http://ldhi.library.cofc.edu/exhibits/show/african_laborers_for_a_new_emp/pope_nicolas_v_and_the_portugu

"Early raids such as the one made by Gonçalvez and Tristão in 1441 were unusual, and may have only been possible because the Portuguese had never previously raided south of Cape Bojador. Portuguese mariners soon learned that inhabitants along the Upper Guinea coast were more than capable of defending themselves from such incursions. Not long after his 1441 voyage, Tristão and most of his crew were killed off the coast of present-day Senegal."(same reference as above - as they used to say in the hood - "Guard your grill!")

So, it wasn't from a position of moral qualms that Christian countries did not have the same record for slave raiding - they were simply not as good at it as the Muslims were.

Peace.

On slavery Talha
Most of my information comes from two books, “For the Glory of God” by revisionist socioligist turned historian Rodney Stark and “In Defence of Faith” by the Jewish writer David Brog who came to the defence of Christianity during the years of The New Atheists. Two really fascinating books based in history which discuss slavery in a Christian context. David Brog’s book is not so well known as the first which is a terrible shame because it excellent.

One of the clearest indications about slavery and the Catholic Church concerns again the Reformation. After this the strength of the church was greatly diminished and slavery the worst types in particular made a comeback in Northern Europe, not Europe itself but its colonies where the type of slavery was chattel slavery, where an owner had almost total ownership including children and their very life, incredibly brutal and evil.

In Southern European colonies in South America slavery was practiced by the Spanish landowners but opposed by the catholic church who ameliorated the institution. Slaves could marry, their children were their own, they had Sunday free from work, they could earn their freedom.

The Catholic church opposed slavery but post Reformation all Christian churches were greatly weakened. It would take Wilberforce to destroy slavery again at its heart, England. But incidentally slavery through these centuries even after the Reformation never occurred in Europe, except for the one example you gave, concerning Saracens.

The example you gave concerning slavery is completely atypical in that it relates to Saracens, Muslims. The reason it was allowed to enslave them was in retaliation because so many Europeans were being kidnapped and enslaved by Islam into the worst form of slavery, chattel slavery. All those stories of harems and eunuchs were true, Islam for centuries on a very large scale in India and Africa kidnapped by force for slaves, probably in the millions. I am pretty sure only Saracens caught slaving could be so reduced, there was no slave market as such in Southern Europe.

During these centuries Islam made very few technological innovations which is true of all slaving societies which have little need to innovate, as manual labor is undertaken by slaves.

In contrast in Europe slavery was virtually abolished by the fifth or sixth century, and thereafter Europeans relied on technology to ease manual labor. A string of amazing technological innovations thereafter propelled Europe far beyond any other country. One of the reasons for this was clearly the end of slavery.

It was the Catholic church which abolished slavery in Europe an incredible achievement for civilization and lessening human cruelty and suffering in the world. With the minor exception of Saracens who were enslaving Europeans.

If the independent Catholic church fell, it’s moral authority would fall

I've always thought of the Catholic Church (CC) to be (in whole) a force for the positive in human history. One of my spiritual guides remembers fondly his grade school instruction in a CC school in Pakistan and always speaks well of them.

Christianity started off as a victim of Imperial Rome; persecutions, killings, churches destroyed, libraries burnt, etc. Those are its origins. Then it went imperial after Constantine and didn't look back until relatively recently. In Byzantium, it was expected that the emperor enforce the correct creed and non-Chalcedonian Christians (like the Copts, Nestorians, etc.) had to evacuate outside its territory:
"Nestorian, member of a Christian sect originating in Asia Minor and Syria out of the condemnation of Nestorius and his teachings by the councils of Ephesus (ad 431) and Chalcedon (ad 451)...When supporters of Nestorius gathered at the theological school of Edessa, it was closed by imperial order in 489, and a vigorous Nestorian remnant migrated to Persia...After the Arab conquest of Persia (637), the Caliphate recognized the Church of the East as a millet, or separate religious community, and granted it legal protection. Nestorian scholars played a prominent role in the formation of Arab culture, and patriarchs occasionally gained influence with rulers. For more than three centuries the church prospered under the Caliphate, but it became worldly and lost leadership in the cultural sphere."
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Nestorians

Your mention of religious restrictions in Visigoth Spain, predate the Muslim invasions by decades - again some of the church officially felt its mandate was to purify the Iberian peninsula for Christianity:
“Even that last vestige of toleration of Judaism evaporated in 638 CE when the Sixth Council of Toledo reaffirmed the policy of forcibly baptizing all Iberian Jews. In fact, Toledo VI went far beyond Sisbut’s policy, not only advocating mandatory baptism, but declaring that the king’s right to rule was dependent on his working to eradicate Judaism…”

“The Sixth Council of Toledo confirmed the canons of the Fourth Council. King Chintila
committed himself not to allow anyone who is not Catholic to live in the kingdom. Moreover, a converts were obliged to make a profession of faith (placitum). Moreover, baptised Jews were blamed for any apostates found in their families. They were to kill their relapsed relatives by themselves in public….The Ninth Council of Toledo ordered converted Jews to spend all Jewish and Christian holy days in the presence of a bishop so as to prove the veracity of their faith.”

Religion is like that - I'm not saying the CC is evil - but it obviously had its issues coming to terms with what the state's relationship is with the religion

What I see often is that many people like to project our current sensibilities about religion and our view of the role of religion in society to the people of the past. It ends up creating a world that never existed. People of the past felt that religion was the most important thing in their lives, it was the cornerstone of their identity. They didn't have the same qualms as we do about enforcing religious edicts through the power of the state. We simply have to be truthful about it and let their words come through without only hearing what we would like to hear. As on slavery...

There is no doubt that the CC tried to lessen the dehumanization of slaves. And that it was important in the eradication of slavery in Europe - for the mere fact that enslavement between Christians was prohibited (Islam had the same rule between Muslims). Once Europe reached a critical mass, it was game over for slavery on that continent. Before then, Europeans were enslaving other Europeans and selling them to Jews, Muslims and others.

The example you gave concerning slavery is completely atypical in that it relates to Saracens, Muslims.

Again, we have to real about history; mutual enslavement between Christians and Muslims occurred from first contact. This was not retaliation, this was business as usual - and Jews were knee-deep in it:
“With the rise of Islam large opportunities were afforded to the Jews to supply Moslem slaves to the Christian world, and Christian slaves to that of Islam; and Ibn Khordadhbeh in the ninth century describes two routes by which Jewish slave-dealers carried such slaves from West to East and from East to West (see Commerce).”
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13798-slave-trade

Keep in mind that the Papal Bull I cited gave exclusive rights to the Portuguese King to raid for slaves (pagan and Muslim) in lower Africa - none of the Corsairs sailed from there, they all came from the Barbary Coast. The Africans of lower Sene-Gambia had nothing to do with European slave raiding - the Portuguese simply couldn't challenge North Africa where the threat was actually coming from, so they simply looked elsewhere for slaves.

enslaved by Islam into the worst form of slavery, chattel slavery

There was no chattel slavery sanctioned by Islam. Ronald Segal (who wrote the most comprehensive work on the African slave trade in the Muslim world) wrote:
“The relationship between slave and master in Islam is a very different relationship from that between the American plantation labourer and owner. It was a much more personalized relationship and relatively benevolent. Everything here is relative — being a slave is being a slave and it shouldn’t be romanticized.”

The fact that many captured Europeans led miserable lives as galley slaves has more to do with the fact that their masters were Corsairs (pirates in no uncertain terms) - and simply disregarded the religious rules for proper treatment of slaves (they drank pretty heavily also) as did most plantation owners in the West Indies. In fact, attempts by the CC at reforming the institution led to a massive revolt by landowners - look up Pizarro (Gonzalo, not Francisco).

I am pretty sure only Saracens caught slaving could be so reduced

Again, I believe you are reading into it what was never stated. The people (Muslim nor pagan) in that region of Africa had nothing to do with slave raiding into Europe.

I agree that the abolition of slavery was at likely 50% predicated on the fact that the Industrial Revolution made the owning of human slaves simply obsolete and, in certain instances, a liability.

the true spirit of the West is in our blood. Not in a book or a man with a funny hat.

You're worshiping your own asshole. The only difference between you and the left is that you inject race into your arguments. You're just as nihilistic and dead inside. Europe rejected Christianity a long time ago and it's become more degenerate and weaker for it. You've made a degenerate, corrupt people into your religion because you have a fetish for blond hair. If Europe had been Christian, hadn't succumbed to birth control, abortion, the analgesic of hedonistic consumerism, they'd still have a culture and and they'd still have their nations. How dumb are you not to see that this is God's punishment for sin and stupidity. Why does Catholic Poland or Slovakia have no problem resisting muslim refugees while secular Sweden welcomes them? Because the Swedes know that they and their culture are trash and that they deserve to burn. They welcome their invaders because they know the lives they lead aren't worth living. Deep inside they hate their culture and what they've become and they welcome it's end.

Think about this while you do nothing this Easter like the Jew or Atheist that you are. If any of your ancestors were Christian, think about how you dishonor them by insulting the faith that they lived and died in and through which they enjoy eternal life.

wow

such a hate-filled soul

there was at least one salient query in there, so not for your benefit, (you’re a hateful maggot) but for the sake of general understanding…

not because of Catholicism, but because Sweden was isolated from the ravages of the wars, Soviet horrors and genocide, and didn’t have enough experience with ‘the tribe’s ravages to be suspicious of them. As Poland and Slovakia (and Russia and Ukraine and Germany, etc..) surly are.

Not so Sweden or farther West, because unlike Hungary or Germany and so many other nations that ingenuously welcomed them in- only to suffer the scorpion’s bite of Bolshevik mass murder, genocide and slavery- we in the West are new to this. They only came into the US in large numbers at the beginning of the 19th century, so we Americans were caught off guard. (not that Benjamin Franklin and other didn’t try to warn us)

Today its our turn in the Nordic regions and the dying, (murdered) imploding former Anglo empire to suffer their ravages. And all of it with the eager proselytizing for more immigration and ‘tolerance’ and diversity and homo-worship of the Christian church’s leadership.

There’s no bigger advocate for unlimited Muslim immigration into Europe and the West than the Pope.

“for me, God has always meant = love...
if your heart is kind and your soul filled with grace, it doesn’t matter I suppose too much on which religion you believe, but the words and the actions of Jesus Christ were as close to what I’d consider the perfect expression of human perfection...”

“even if you take them at their word, the Holocaust was done as humanely as it’s was humanly possible to kill people. Sort of like the Soylent Green euthanasia scene the violins were playing as they were handed a towel to take a ‘shower’, and then the death was as benign as could be arranged under the circumstances. And that was their worst case scenario of the gas chambers...Compare that to Dresden, which is undisputed and was as calculatedly cruel and sadistic as it was possible to imagine. And then some.”
“and yet it’s the Germans who everyone condemns for inhumanity”

What do you think Rurik? Would Christ be handing out towels as the violins played?

Happy Easter!

wow, that’s the second time that obscure quote of mine has been resurrected from the ancient past

I don’t think the Christ would be handing out towels, but I also don’t think he’d be deliberately starving whole families do death slowly and sadistically like the (Jewish) NDVD did to the (Christian) Kulaks by the millions.

That quote of mine was simply to point out the respective cruelty (or lack there of) for some of the more well-known (if exaggerated) atrocities from our more recent human history.

let me ask you..

was the death of a Ukrainian farmer any less tragic/evil than a death at Auschwitz?

I won’t ask about the first time “that obscure quote of mine has been resurrected from the ancient past” but I should note if “ancient past” is 476 days you must be young indeed. Then again, do you stand behind your statement (“the Holocaust was done as humanely as it’s was humanly possible to kill people”)?

You now say “I don’t think the Christ would be handing out towels, but I also don’t think he’d be deliberately starving whole families do [sic] death slowly and sadistically like the (Jewish) NDVD” did to the (Christian) Kulaks by the millions.”

Who mentioned Kulaks? "The (Jewish) NDVD?" Did you mean the NKVD?

“was the death of a Ukrainian farmer any less tragic/evil than a death at Auschwitz?”

Of course not. What are you saying? Exterminating Jews was OK, since they killed Kulaks (proof please)? Please let us know.

Why you people love to use word Kulak when you want to express it was something wrong. Kulak is pejorative word, like bankster. If you want to say it's wong better say something like "nice good farmers", not banksters or kulaks

On slavery TalhaMost of my information comes from two books, "For the Glory of God" by revisionist socioligist turned historian Rodney Stark and "In Defence of Faith" by the Jewish writer David Brog who came to the defence of Christianity during the years of The New Atheists. Two really fascinating books based in history which discuss slavery in a Christian context. David Brog's book is not so well known as the first which is a terrible shame because it excellent.

One of the clearest indications about slavery and the Catholic Church concerns again the Reformation. After this the strength of the church was greatly diminished and slavery the worst types in particular made a comeback in Northern Europe, not Europe itself but its colonies where the type of slavery was chattel slavery, where an owner had almost total ownership including children and their very life, incredibly brutal and evil.

In Southern European colonies in South America slavery was practiced by the Spanish landowners but opposed by the catholic church who ameliorated the institution. Slaves could marry, their children were their own, they had Sunday free from work, they could earn their freedom.

The Catholic church opposed slavery but post Reformation all Christian churches were greatly weakened. It would take Wilberforce to destroy slavery again at its heart, England. But incidentally slavery through these centuries even after the Reformation never occurred in Europe, except for the one example you gave, concerning Saracens.

The example you gave concerning slavery is completely atypical in that it relates to Saracens, Muslims. The reason it was allowed to enslave them was in retaliation because so many Europeans were being kidnapped and enslaved by Islam into the worst form of slavery, chattel slavery. All those stories of harems and eunuchs were true, Islam for centuries on a very large scale in India and Africa kidnapped by force for slaves, probably in the millions. I am pretty sure only Saracens caught slaving could be so reduced, there was no slave market as such in Southern Europe.

During these centuries Islam made very few technological innovations which is true of all slaving societies which have little need to innovate, as manual labor is undertaken by slaves.

In contrast in Europe slavery was virtually abolished by the fifth or sixth century, and thereafter Europeans relied on technology to ease manual labor. A string of amazing technological innovations thereafter propelled Europe far beyond any other country. One of the reasons for this was clearly the end of slavery.

It was the Catholic church which abolished slavery in Europe an incredible achievement for civilization and lessening human cruelty and suffering in the world. With the minor exception of Saracens who were enslaving Europeans.

Thanks Talha

Hey PtR,

Thanks for your insights. Few more thoughts…

If the independent Catholic church fell, it’s moral authority would fall

I’ve always thought of the Catholic Church (CC) to be (in whole) a force for the positive in human history. One of my spiritual guides remembers fondly his grade school instruction in a CC school in Pakistan and always speaks well of them.

Christianity started off as a victim of Imperial Rome; persecutions, killings, churches destroyed, libraries burnt, etc. Those are its origins. Then it went imperial after Constantine and didn’t look back until relatively recently. In Byzantium, it was expected that the emperor enforce the correct creed and non-Chalcedonian Christians (like the Copts, Nestorians, etc.) had to evacuate outside its territory:
“Nestorian, member of a Christian sect originating in Asia Minor and Syria out of the condemnation of Nestorius and his teachings by the councils of Ephesus (ad 431) and Chalcedon (ad 451)…When supporters of Nestorius gathered at the theological school of Edessa, it was closed by imperial order in 489, and a vigorous Nestorian remnant migrated to Persia…After the Arab conquest of Persia (637), the Caliphate recognized the Church of the East as a millet, or separate religious community, and granted it legal protection. Nestorian scholars played a prominent role in the formation of Arab culture, and patriarchs occasionally gained influence with rulers. For more than three centuries the church prospered under the Caliphate, but it became worldly and lost leadership in the cultural sphere.”

Your mention of religious restrictions in Visigoth Spain, predate the Muslim invasions by decades – again some of the church officially felt its mandate was to purify the Iberian peninsula for Christianity:
“Even that last vestige of toleration of Judaism evaporated in 638 CE when the Sixth Council of Toledo reaffirmed the policy of forcibly baptizing all Iberian Jews. In fact, Toledo VI went far beyond Sisbut’s policy, not only advocating mandatory baptism, but declaring that the king’s right to rule was dependent on his working to eradicate Judaism…”

“The Sixth Council of Toledo confirmed the canons of the Fourth Council. King Chintila
committed himself not to allow anyone who is not Catholic to live in the kingdom. Moreover, a converts were obliged to make a profession of faith (placitum). Moreover, baptised Jews were blamed for any apostates found in their families. They were to kill their relapsed relatives by themselves in public….The Ninth Council of Toledo ordered converted Jews to spend all Jewish and Christian holy days in the presence of a bishop so as to prove the veracity of their faith.”

Religion is like that – I’m not saying the CC is evil – but it obviously had its issues coming to terms with what the state’s relationship is with the religion

What I see often is that many people like to project our current sensibilities about religion and our view of the role of religion in society to the people of the past. It ends up creating a world that never existed. People of the past felt that religion was the most important thing in their lives, it was the cornerstone of their identity. They didn’t have the same qualms as we do about enforcing religious edicts through the power of the state. We simply have to be truthful about it and let their words come through without only hearing what we would like to hear. As on slavery…

There is no doubt that the CC tried to lessen the dehumanization of slaves. And that it was important in the eradication of slavery in Europe – for the mere fact that enslavement between Christians was prohibited (Islam had the same rule between Muslims). Once Europe reached a critical mass, it was game over for slavery on that continent. Before then, Europeans were enslaving other Europeans and selling them to Jews, Muslims and others.

The example you gave concerning slavery is completely atypical in that it relates to Saracens, Muslims.

Again, we have to real about history; mutual enslavement between Christians and Muslims occurred from first contact. This was not retaliation, this was business as usual – and Jews were knee-deep in it:
“With the rise of Islam large opportunities were afforded to the Jews to supply Moslem slaves to the Christian world, and Christian slaves to that of Islam; and Ibn Khordadhbeh in the ninth century describes two routes by which Jewish slave-dealers carried such slaves from West to East and from East to West (see Commerce).”

Keep in mind that the Papal Bull I cited gave exclusive rights to the Portuguese King to raid for slaves (pagan and Muslim) in lower Africa – none of the Corsairs sailed from there, they all came from the Barbary Coast. The Africans of lower Sene-Gambia had nothing to do with European slave raiding – the Portuguese simply couldn’t challenge North Africa where the threat was actually coming from, so they simply looked elsewhere for slaves.

enslaved by Islam into the worst form of slavery, chattel slavery

There was no chattel slavery sanctioned by Islam. Ronald Segal (who wrote the most comprehensive work on the African slave trade in the Muslim world) wrote:
“The relationship between slave and master in Islam is a very different relationship from that between the American plantation labourer and owner. It was a much more personalized relationship and relatively benevolent. Everything here is relative — being a slave is being a slave and it shouldn’t be romanticized.”

The fact that many captured Europeans led miserable lives as galley slaves has more to do with the fact that their masters were Corsairs (pirates in no uncertain terms) – and simply disregarded the religious rules for proper treatment of slaves (they drank pretty heavily also) as did most plantation owners in the West Indies. In fact, attempts by the CC at reforming the institution led to a massive revolt by landowners – look up Pizarro (Gonzalo, not Francisco).

I am pretty sure only Saracens caught slaving could be so reduced

Again, I believe you are reading into it what was never stated. The people (Muslim nor pagan) in that region of Africa had nothing to do with slave raiding into Europe.

I agree that the abolition of slavery was at likely 50% predicated on the fact that the Industrial Revolution made the owning of human slaves simply obsolete and, in certain instances, a liability.

People of the past felt that religion was the most important thing in their lives, it was the cornerstone of their identity. They didn’t have the same qualms as we do about enforcing religious edicts through the power of the state.

I understand that. And thinking about that issue has informed my thoughts about the Reformation and the present as I tried to make plain in one of my previous posts.

My point perhaps not clearly enough made is that there is a tension between enforcing uniformity and the ideal of free thought in Christianity which may not be present in other religions or states. The evidence for that is everywhere in their art, learning and political history and of course Luther himself who made the cornerstone of all his rebellion freedom of thought. The deadly consequences soon became apparent in the Peasants Rebellion. This single piece of history, large history informs all western history to the present day, as we constantly grapple with freedom of thought to discern truth and the chaos from bad ideas.

I am arguing clearly for Christianity as being exceptional in this regard, as bringing something new into the world. Prior to this men were either powerful or weak, the strong were better, and enforced themselves on the weak in many ways. This was their right due to their strength. Slavery was a natural part of this system.

Jesus changed this, every man now was equal in God's eyes and all had their own salvation according to their choices in life. Even the very writings of Jesus are parables rich with symbolism and multiple meanings. Men chose their path, it was not forced upon them. The church opposed slavery in part based on these ideas, and it had to balance these ideas in the temporal matters of state.

Perhaps based on it's own history of Paganism and the multiple sects which flared constantly in the Christian world it was cautious about free thinking. Arianism almost overthrew the church. It has been suggested that Islam itself was partly inspired by Arianism. The Cathars had to be put down with great force and death.

These points have often been used to condemn the Roman Church and label it repressive and evil and yet as the peasants revolt showed and many other instances in modern history the state has far more capacity for brutality and cruelty in enforcing its ideas. The Catholic church if any thing modifies this brutality based on the teachings of Jesus, particularly the emphasis on individual salvation.

Again I would say this is a tension implicit in Christianity itself and for better or worse it has led to the triumph and horrors of Christian European history itself.

You quote Ronald Segal. This is a quote from the Guardian review of his book:

Zanzibar was a black Belsen, a clearing house of shackled humanity, where the stench of death was masked by the cloves on which the island's Omani emirs built a great trading empire.
Without a nascent industrial complex to feed, many of the men were castrated for domestic service or drafted into slave armies that emptied the lands around the great lakes of their peoples. One in 10, by some estimates, survived the trek from the interior. By the mid-19th century, when east African slave magnates - many of them the free sons of Arab slavers and their black concubines - ran out of infidels and animists to enslave, they, and the expanding black Islamic empires that supplied them, circumvented the scruples set out in the Koran and carried off their own on the flimsiest of criminal pretexts.
Slaves were the luxury goods the Islamic world seemed unable to wean itself off, despite hectoring from a self-righteous west that had embraced emancipation just as mechanisation had rendered slavery obsolete. Like horses and gold, slaves conferred status, and the most opulent households had thousands. When he died in 1870, one Arab official of the black state of Bornu on the shores of Lake Chad had several thousand slaves to complement his stable of 1,000 stallions.

He might argue that it is not strictly Chattel Slavery, but whatever it was was incredibly brutal. I suppose it is easy to be magnanimous when you have over 1000 slaves in your household and all the men are eunuchs.

You should try not to mince words here Talha, this type of slavery still continues in the Muslim world today, the man with 1000 slaves existed in the 19th century. How do you think such slaves were kept in line Talha, a glass of milk at night and pretty words. It was and must have been a brutal police state encompassing cruelty beyond description as powerful slaves oppressed the weak. For centuries. And not just Africa. The Sub-Continent was their other source of slaves. The men were immediately castrated and many simply died on route from blood loss. The suffering Talha.

The Catholic church ended that and deserved the credit for it.

The examples you give of slaving in Southern Europe do not hold water. It is one thing to use history to discern truth and another to use history to defend your current political views, no matter how well meaning they may be.

If widespread slavery was happening in Europe then there would be evidence. Christianity under the Catholic church has left the most amazing trail of primary and cultural evidence in history. Images of slaves do not appear. In other countries slaves become part of the economy, where is the evidence for that in Europe as a whole.

What I believe you are doing here is confusing two things. Outlaw slavers who were Christian or Jewish who kidnapped slaves to sell to Islam for profit. A problem Europe has always had. These groups essentially outlaws were beyond the reach of state power basically operating beyond its jurisprudence. It would be no surprise if the state allowed the operators to continue basically judging it was beyond their powers to stop. The same happens in our world in multiple ways even thought states have grown immeasurably in power since the Middle Ages. The second is of course that those Saracens or Pagans from Africa caught slaving could be enslaved themselves as a form of retaliation against their enslaving of Europeans.

I agree that the abolition of slavery was at likely 50% predicated on the fact that the Industrial Revolution made the owning of human slaves simply obsolete

This is putting the cart before the horse. The first European industrial revolution took place in the Middle Ages and was caused by the need to replace manpower because slaves were no longer available.

A few quotes from Jean Gimpel (1918–1996) was a French historian and medievalist…. In 1987 he was a founding vice-president of the Society for the History of Mediaeval Technology and Science, the British affiliate of AVISTA and the Association de Villard de Honnecourt.
The Middle Ages was one of the great inventive eras of mankind. It should be known as the first industrial revolution of Europe….
The medieval period witnessed one of the more rapid advances in the introduction of machinery in European history. This could not be accomplished without the effective taming of energy. The most common method was the mill – primarily water but also wind. These mills would grind corn, crush olives, tan leather, make paper, etc. While the Romans utilized the mill, it was not nearly to the extent utilized in these later periods. The relationship is inverse to the use of slaves in the economy – the increasing use of the mill corresponded with the drastic reduction of slavery during the Middle Ages.
Monasteries built in countries separated by thousands of miles – Portugal, Sweden, Scotland, Hungary – all had very similar waterpowered systems within almost universally similar plans for the monasteries themselves…. In certain ways the discipline imposed by Saint Bernard on his monks – the rigid timetable, the impossibility of deviating from the Rule without facing punishment – brings to mind the work regulations that Henry Ford imposed on his assembly lines.

It is wrong to suggest technology reduced slavery, it is the other way around and again the Catholic Church deserves full credit for this.

Slaves were often used for sexual purposes by their masters, not often mentioned or considered by scholars who tend to steer away from this subject.

Is there a relationship between the repeated attempts to free up sexual relations between the sexes in the west during various revolutions and sects and the lack of slaves being available to use for this purpose?

It is an interesting question to ask since we are still living through the latest attempt to make sex easily available for the powerful which has simply turned the west upside down and seems to be leading to a steep decline in our civilization.

Thanks Talha for your interesting and respectful posts. Much appreciated.

I'm confused - how did Israel get in to this? The article is about the declining populations of Christians in Iraq, Syria, and Egypt.

If the idea was to draw a parallel between the fate of the natives of the Americas and the Arabs who live in Israel, that is ridiculous. First of all, Native American populations declined by about 90% following conquest, while the Arabs who have in recent decades adopted the moniker "Palestinian" have increased by about a factor of 10 since the supposed conquest of their region by Israel. Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, Arabs are not indigenous to the Levant, including Israel - they conquered the region from farther South.

{I’m confused…}

Glad you recognize and accept your mental condition.
Acceptance is the first step in the eventual cure.

I'm confused - how did Israel get in to this? The article is about the declining populations of Christians in Iraq, Syria, and Egypt.

If the idea was to draw a parallel between the fate of the natives of the Americas and the Arabs who live in Israel, that is ridiculous. First of all, Native American populations declined by about 90% following conquest, while the Arabs who have in recent decades adopted the moniker "Palestinian" have increased by about a factor of 10 since the supposed conquest of their region by Israel. Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, Arabs are not indigenous to the Levant, including Israel - they conquered the region from farther South.

Hey biz,

Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, Arabs are not indigenous to the Levant, including Israel – they conquered the region from farther South.

There are two types of people that are lumped under “Arab”:
1) Someone who can link back their lineage to one of the original Arab tribes; Bani Tamim, Bani Hashim, Bani Taghlib, Bani Ghifar, Bani Qays etc. – there are not many of these people and most people who are called Arabs, would not qualify. These are the original butt-kickers of Byzantium for sure.
2) A people who took on the Arabic language – these are Arabic speakers, more so than actual Arabs as the classical Arabs would consider themselves. For instance, my sister in law (Swedish background) studied and teaches Arabic at a university level – she is NOT an Arab.

This shift occurred during the Abbassid era as the language of administration was shifted to Arabic and various populations (non-Muslims as well) adopted it, either as lingua franca or their primary language.

There is no doubt that the current population of Arabs (Palestinian and others) are indigenous to the region as genetic studies have shown – genetically, Palestinians are more indigenous than European Jews (unless one thinks Italians and French are more native to the Levant):
“The closest genetic neighbors to most Jewish groups were the Palestinians, Israeli Bedouins, and Druze in addition to the Southern Europeans, including Cypriots…The closest genetic relatives of the Middle Eastern Jews are Druze, Bedouin and Palestinians. The closest genetic relatives of the European group of Jews are Northern Italians, followed by Sardinians and French.”

“There is no doubt that Westerners try to follow a path of accurate footnoting whereby stating any fact has to be referenced to a certain source.”

No, PEOPLE who make accusations, then are asked by other PEOLE to back it up, follow this path. It is not a “westerner” issue.

“...it is by no means a full proof of accuracy especially when such referencing depends on fake mainstream media.”

Intellectual laziness on display here. How conenient for people to merely label

“A lot of intelligence derives from anecdotal evidence, and about Jewish dealers engaging in the sale of Baghdad Museum, the news came to me from many friends who travel around the world and it was mentioned on news media though a lot of time have passed since to give the accurate reference.”

First, the intelligence community relies on more on trends, patterns, and data than anecdotal evidence when making their decisions. Second, anecdotal evidence is problematic considering that it is subject to confirmation bias. While I am sure there were Jews who partook in selling precious stolen from Baghdad, your generalization, in order to be taken legitimately, requires more than stories you heard.

“it is a fact that the Russian Orthodox Church has been at the forefront of defenders of religious minorities from the ever unfolding tragedy that has afflicted those minorities in the Middle East.”

“In July, Russian President Vladimir Putin signed a new law that cracks down on missionary work and evangelism. Among other things, it mandates that people share their religious beliefs only at state-registered places of worship. Critics say the law, which was approved as part of a swath of “anti-extremism and terrorism” legislation, contradicts Russia’s post-Soviet constitution, which guarantees citizens and foreigners the right to disseminate their religious beliefs. “Soviet history shows us how many people of different faiths have been persecuted for spreading the word of God,” wrote Sergei Ryakhovsky, head of the Protestant Churches of Russia, in an open letter to Putin. “This law brings us back to that shameful past.”

“Another virtue of the Russian Orthidox Church, is that it is the most effective Christian church at shielding family values from the encroachment of the so called ‘secular’ state”.

America is predicated on the concept of separation of church and state. To the majority of our citizens, the ROC would be deemed “meddlesome “in our political affairs.

“Did you insist that the American President backs his claims with facts? I am not testing you but I would be interested to know.”

He used the available evidence given to him and made the decision to invade Iraq. I was not a proponent then or now of our military action there, especially since facts were “missing" or "massaged". It is even more imperative that you offer proof demonstrating the extent of Jewish art dealership involvement in this pillaging of Iraq, lest you be characterized in the same vein as George Bush.

“America is predicated on the concept of separation of church and state”
When you look at how political decisions are made by a great body of American legislators in general but more so by the Zionist Christians, you should wonder how much the concept of seperation of church and state is fact or fiction. George W Busch has invoked God and bible more than I can count in his speeches in which he defended his imperial wars going to the extent of calling his invasion of Iraq a ” crusade” which did not go well with many Moslems in the Middle East. However, I am not sure which God George W is referring to considering his background as a member of the Skulls and Bones society, the sublime God of love or the Master of the Universe.
” It is even more imperative that you offer proof demonstrating the extent of Jewish art dealership involvement in this pillaging of Iraq, lest you be characterized in the same vein as George Busch”
If history is any guide, there are two important books about the looting of arts in Russia after the Bolshevic revolution by largely Jewish dealers. One such book is ‘ Under the Sign of the Scorpion’ by Jury Lina and another one was the Memoirs of the Armand Hammer which I read during my young days when I was an admirer of such Illuminatus Mamonites. I agree with you that such a precedent does not necessarily prove the case of implicating Jewish art dealers in the case of the Baghdad museum. Yet stealing arts is dwarfed by the big theft of the whole country of Palestine which is far more meaningful for the subject of the article.
As for what the Russian state decrees with respect to freedom of religion, I am in no position to defend such actions, even though I do have some understanding of the caution of Russia with respect to foreign missionaries and NGO’s considering the sad reality of the post Soviet Union under Yeltsin. I will simply state that the Orthodox Church did not have the equivalent of Vatican II and it has refused to compromise the basic tenets of Christianity to please the Jews. Here I would recommend the excellent book by Israel Shamir ‘ Cabbala of Power’ in which the author dwells on the subject of the relationship between Jews and the different Christian churches in a professional and unbiased way.
“First, the intelligence community relies on more on trends, patterns, and data than anecdotal evidence when making their decisions”
Yet if we consider the claims of intelligence agencies before the Iraq invasion, the expectations that Iraqis will meet the American conqueror with flowers and open arms proves that this failure of intelligence is due mainly to reliance on anecdotal evidence that was never properly vetted.
I would finally admit that my comment should have been edited in a way to avoid generalisations, yet the purpose of my comment was not to highlight who was behind the Iraqi Museum robbery but the wider subject of the deformation of the Middle East from demographic and cultural angles for the sake of imperial aims by the West or the Israelis.

"When you look at how political decisions are made by a great body of American legislators in general but more so by the Zionist Christians, you should wonder how much the concept of seperation of church and state is fact or fiction."

There are several components to church and state. First, American citizens are free to worship the religion of their choice without state intrusion. Second, there is no state-sponsored religion. Third, throughout our nation's existence, legislators at the local, state, and federal level have been influenced by their faith in some capacity during the law-making process.

"If history is any guide, there are two important books about the looting of arts in Russia after the Bolshevic revolution by largely Jewish dealers. "

Irrelevant. The topic are Jewish art dealers who sold stolen artwork from Iraq. Where are your sources?

"As for what the Russian state decrees with respect to freedom of religion, I am in no position to defend such actions..."

Exactly, which means your claim that the "Russian Orthodox Church has been at the forefront of defenders of religious minorities" has been disproven in a particular case.

"but the wider subject of the deformation of the Middle East from demographic and cultural angles for the sake of imperial aims by the West or the Israelis."

Certain Orthodox churches existed only inside Muslim lands for centuries - if they were supposed to be destroyed, we wouldn't be having a conversation about them now.

Your antagonism against Protestants actually expounds on why Christians often failed on the battlefront and in the age of empires. It is only relatively recently that the various Christian sects have learned to chill about their divisions. For centuries their divisions vociferously denounced and brutally suppressed each other. This was taken advantage of by everybody from the Sassanids, Muslims and even the Mongols. The history of the Coptic Church is a prime example:"Under the yoke of the Byzantine empire -- a continuation of the Roman empire in the east Mediterranean -- the Copts were treated very badly. The Byzantines imposed on them an alien patriarch who was sent to Egypt from Constantinople. But in 623 A.D. the Persians captured Egypt as a result of the immense chaos all over the country. The Copts were prevented from practicing their religion, and their human and national rights were denied. Nevertheless, some Copts felt relief because alien Patriarchs were no longer appointed by Byzantium to oppress the Egyptian church...This was a bitter period in which Emperor Heraclius' only concern was to oppose and shatter the church. He gave orders to transfer Bishop Visas of Asia Minor to Alexandria with power to exercise both ecclesiastical and civil authority. During that period, Pope Benjamin was forced to flee to Scetis...The Arabs marched under Amr Ibn Elaas, reached Egypt at Al Farama on the Red Sea. After a month of fighting they conquered the city and headed west...Amr cancelled the heavy Byzantine taxes and did not ask the Egyptians to pay more than the tribute. He opted to collect reasonably moderate sums of money and differed on this matter with Omar Ibn Al-Khattab (his commander the caliph). He also gave the Egyptians freedom to worship and freely exercise their legal and administrative matters. He appointed some Copts as directors in various districts, yet he exempted them from the military service. In an amicable atmosphere, the Pope met with Amr who showed him esteem and veneration."http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/synexarion/benjamen.html

Similar accounts remain from the Eastern Christians, especially non-Chalcedonian sects like the Nestorians who (though not happy at the prospect of a new conquering people) thought the Arabs were sent by God to punish the Byzantines for oppressing them:http://www.upenn.edu/pennpress/book/15378.html

The greatest defender of Christians in the east was probably a strong Christian Europe who would extract vengeance on Islam for attacks on Orthodox Christians.

There was a reason that the Crusades, from a strong Christian Europe, failed to wrest the Holy Lands back from the Muslims. Much of this failure lay again in the internal Christian divisions. The Latins, well, acted like Latins and many lorded it over the native Orthodox Christian populations:"This utopian scheme came to an end when the Crusaders replaced the Greek patriarchs of Antioch and Jerusalem with Latin prelates, after they had captured these ancient cities (1098–99). Instead of reestablishing Christian unity in the common struggle against Islam, the Crusades demonstrated how far apart Latins and Greeks really were from each other."https://www.britannica.com/topic/Eastern-Orthodoxy

This came to a rather despicable crescendo in the Fourth Crusade when a Latin Christian army sacked and plundered the Orthodox city of Constantinople (not to mention the Catholic city of Zara) without ever touching down anywhere near the Holy Land as per their original mandate.

Currently, in some Muslim countries, Christians don't fair well (especially in the places where Salafi-Wahhabi extremists have solid footing), in others, they aren't doing too badly:http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/jordans-shows-mercy-and-generosity-towards-displaced-christians

We can help the situation by not destabilizing the countries where the central government is looking out for their rights.

As far as looking to Western governments for the rights of Christians; you can put a nail in that coffin by reading up on how the CIA helped friendly governments in South America torture and kill Catholic priests and nuns that were trying to stand up for peasants. Christianity hardly forms the outlook of most of these governments else they wouldn't have their wretched foreign policies.

Peace.

You mention the tiny country of Jordan, which has fewer than ten million people — less than one percent of the world’s Muslims and unfortunately, highly unrepresentative.

How are Christians faring in Pakistan, which has more than fourteen times the population of Jordan?

Not well - neither are the Muslims if you've been paying attention. Pakistan has seen far more bombings at mosques than at churches - this is a fact.

Like I have said - if one genuinely cares (and I mean genuinely cares - not nonsense lip service just to score points on how bad Muslims are) about religious minorities - then they will not support any further destabilization of Muslim countries. Do you really think, in the US, if there was destabilization and a break down of civil order, certain groups or individuals would not take advantage of the situation and bomb mosques and kill Muslims? I certainly do not live with that delusion.

Find me stable Muslim countries; Malaysia, Jordan, Oman, Senegal, etc. and you will find the Christians there are doing OK - maybe not flying high (there might be certain restrictions on proselytizing, etc.), but they are safe in their persons and property and religion.

You have, on previous occasion both advocated that; 1) we back off of Muslim countries and that 2) the US join with Russia in order to eradicate Islam from the planet. Make up your mind, I cannot take you seriously at this point - are you a Christian who lives and upholds Christian ideals or part of the (White) nationalist rabble? Figure out your narrative (and which God you serve) and then we can talk sensibly about these things.

You mention the tiny country of Jordan, which has fewer than ten million people -- less than one percent of the world's Muslims and unfortunately, highly unrepresentative.

How are Christians faring in Pakistan, which has more than fourteen times the population of Jordan?

How are Christians faring in Egypt and Libya?

Hey RC,

How are Christians faring in Pakistan…Egypt and Libya?

Not well – neither are the Muslims if you’ve been paying attention. Pakistan has seen far more bombings at mosques than at churches – this is a fact.

Like I have said – if one genuinely cares (and I mean genuinely cares – not nonsense lip service just to score points on how bad Muslims are) about religious minorities – then they will not support any further destabilization of Muslim countries. Do you really think, in the US, if there was destabilization and a break down of civil order, certain groups or individuals would not take advantage of the situation and bomb mosques and kill Muslims? I certainly do not live with that delusion.

Find me stable Muslim countries; Malaysia, Jordan, Oman, Senegal, etc. and you will find the Christians there are doing OK – maybe not flying high (there might be certain restrictions on proselytizing, etc.), but they are safe in their persons and property and religion.

You have, on previous occasion both advocated that; 1) we back off of Muslim countries and that 2) the US join with Russia in order to eradicate Islam from the planet. Make up your mind, I cannot take you seriously at this point – are you a Christian who lives and upholds Christian ideals or part of the (White) nationalist rabble? Figure out your narrative (and which God you serve) and then we can talk sensibly about these things.

"America is predicated on the concept of separation of church and state"
When you look at how political decisions are made by a great body of American legislators in general but more so by the Zionist Christians, you should wonder how much the concept of seperation of church and state is fact or fiction. George W Busch has invoked God and bible more than I can count in his speeches in which he defended his imperial wars going to the extent of calling his invasion of Iraq a " crusade" which did not go well with many Moslems in the Middle East. However, I am not sure which God George W is referring to considering his background as a member of the Skulls and Bones society, the sublime God of love or the Master of the Universe.
" It is even more imperative that you offer proof demonstrating the extent of Jewish art dealership involvement in this pillaging of Iraq, lest you be characterized in the same vein as George Busch"
If history is any guide, there are two important books about the looting of arts in Russia after the Bolshevic revolution by largely Jewish dealers. One such book is ' Under the Sign of the Scorpion' by Jury Lina and another one was the Memoirs of the Armand Hammer which I read during my young days when I was an admirer of such Illuminatus Mamonites. I agree with you that such a precedent does not necessarily prove the case of implicating Jewish art dealers in the case of the Baghdad museum. Yet stealing arts is dwarfed by the big theft of the whole country of Palestine which is far more meaningful for the subject of the article.
As for what the Russian state decrees with respect to freedom of religion, I am in no position to defend such actions, even though I do have some understanding of the caution of Russia with respect to foreign missionaries and NGO's considering the sad reality of the post Soviet Union under Yeltsin. I will simply state that the Orthodox Church did not have the equivalent of Vatican II and it has refused to compromise the basic tenets of Christianity to please the Jews. Here I would recommend the excellent book by Israel Shamir ' Cabbala of Power' in which the author dwells on the subject of the relationship between Jews and the different Christian churches in a professional and unbiased way.
"First, the intelligence community relies on more on trends, patterns, and data than anecdotal evidence when making their decisions"
Yet if we consider the claims of intelligence agencies before the Iraq invasion, the expectations that Iraqis will meet the American conqueror with flowers and open arms proves that this failure of intelligence is due mainly to reliance on anecdotal evidence that was never properly vetted.
I would finally admit that my comment should have been edited in a way to avoid generalisations, yet the purpose of my comment was not to highlight who was behind the Iraqi Museum robbery but the wider subject of the deformation of the Middle East from demographic and cultural angles for the sake of imperial aims by the West or the Israelis.

“When you look at how political decisions are made by a great body of American legislators in general but more so by the Zionist Christians, you should wonder how much the concept of seperation of church and state is fact or fiction.”

There are several components to church and state. First, American citizens are free to worship the religion of their choice without state intrusion. Second, there is no state-sponsored religion. Third, throughout our nation’s existence, legislators at the local, state, and federal level have been influenced by their faith in some capacity during the law-making process.

“If history is any guide, there are two important books about the looting of arts in Russia after the Bolshevic revolution by largely Jewish dealers. ”

Irrelevant. The topic are Jewish art dealers who sold stolen artwork from Iraq. Where are your sources?

“As for what the Russian state decrees with respect to freedom of religion, I am in no position to defend such actions…”

Exactly, which means your claim that the “Russian Orthodox Church has been at the forefront of defenders of religious minorities” has been disproven in a particular case.

“but the wider subject of the deformation of the Middle East from demographic and cultural angles for the sake of imperial aims by the West or the Israelis.”

wow, that's the second time that obscure quote of mine has been resurrected from the ancient past

I don't think the Christ would be handing out towels, but I also don't think he'd be deliberately starving whole families do death slowly and sadistically like the (Jewish) NDVD did to the (Christian) Kulaks by the millions.

That quote of mine was simply to point out the respective cruelty (or lack there of) for some of the more well-known (if exaggerated) atrocities from our more recent human history.

let me ask you..

was the death of a Ukrainian farmer any less tragic/evil than a death at Auschwitz?

Rurik, thanks for your response.

I won’t ask about the first time “that obscure quote of mine has been resurrected from the ancient past” but I should note if “ancient past” is 476 days you must be young indeed. Then again, do you stand behind your statement (“the Holocaust was done as humanely as it’s was humanly possible to kill people”)?

You now say “I don’t think the Christ would be handing out towels, but I also don’t think he’d be deliberately starving whole families do [sic] death slowly and sadistically like the (Jewish) NDVD” did to the (Christian) Kulaks by the millions.”

Who mentioned Kulaks? “The (Jewish) NDVD?” Did you mean the NKVD?

“was the death of a Ukrainian farmer any less tragic/evil than a death at Auschwitz?”

Of course not. What are you saying? Exterminating Jews was OK, since they killed Kulaks (proof please)? Please let us know.

wow, that's the second time that obscure quote of mine has been resurrected from the ancient past

I don't think the Christ would be handing out towels, but I also don't think he'd be deliberately starving whole families do death slowly and sadistically like the (Jewish) NDVD did to the (Christian) Kulaks by the millions.

That quote of mine was simply to point out the respective cruelty (or lack there of) for some of the more well-known (if exaggerated) atrocities from our more recent human history.

let me ask you..

was the death of a Ukrainian farmer any less tragic/evil than a death at Auschwitz?

NDVD did to the (Christian) Kulaks by the millions.

Why you people love to use word Kulak when you want to express it was something wrong. Kulak is pejorative word, like bankster. If you want to say it’s wong better say something like “nice good farmers”, not banksters or kulaks

If the independent Catholic church fell, it’s moral authority would fall

I've always thought of the Catholic Church (CC) to be (in whole) a force for the positive in human history. One of my spiritual guides remembers fondly his grade school instruction in a CC school in Pakistan and always speaks well of them.

Christianity started off as a victim of Imperial Rome; persecutions, killings, churches destroyed, libraries burnt, etc. Those are its origins. Then it went imperial after Constantine and didn't look back until relatively recently. In Byzantium, it was expected that the emperor enforce the correct creed and non-Chalcedonian Christians (like the Copts, Nestorians, etc.) had to evacuate outside its territory:
"Nestorian, member of a Christian sect originating in Asia Minor and Syria out of the condemnation of Nestorius and his teachings by the councils of Ephesus (ad 431) and Chalcedon (ad 451)...When supporters of Nestorius gathered at the theological school of Edessa, it was closed by imperial order in 489, and a vigorous Nestorian remnant migrated to Persia...After the Arab conquest of Persia (637), the Caliphate recognized the Church of the East as a millet, or separate religious community, and granted it legal protection. Nestorian scholars played a prominent role in the formation of Arab culture, and patriarchs occasionally gained influence with rulers. For more than three centuries the church prospered under the Caliphate, but it became worldly and lost leadership in the cultural sphere."
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Nestorians

Your mention of religious restrictions in Visigoth Spain, predate the Muslim invasions by decades - again some of the church officially felt its mandate was to purify the Iberian peninsula for Christianity:
“Even that last vestige of toleration of Judaism evaporated in 638 CE when the Sixth Council of Toledo reaffirmed the policy of forcibly baptizing all Iberian Jews. In fact, Toledo VI went far beyond Sisbut’s policy, not only advocating mandatory baptism, but declaring that the king’s right to rule was dependent on his working to eradicate Judaism…”

“The Sixth Council of Toledo confirmed the canons of the Fourth Council. King Chintila
committed himself not to allow anyone who is not Catholic to live in the kingdom. Moreover, a converts were obliged to make a profession of faith (placitum). Moreover, baptised Jews were blamed for any apostates found in their families. They were to kill their relapsed relatives by themselves in public….The Ninth Council of Toledo ordered converted Jews to spend all Jewish and Christian holy days in the presence of a bishop so as to prove the veracity of their faith.”

Religion is like that - I'm not saying the CC is evil - but it obviously had its issues coming to terms with what the state's relationship is with the religion

What I see often is that many people like to project our current sensibilities about religion and our view of the role of religion in society to the people of the past. It ends up creating a world that never existed. People of the past felt that religion was the most important thing in their lives, it was the cornerstone of their identity. They didn't have the same qualms as we do about enforcing religious edicts through the power of the state. We simply have to be truthful about it and let their words come through without only hearing what we would like to hear. As on slavery...

There is no doubt that the CC tried to lessen the dehumanization of slaves. And that it was important in the eradication of slavery in Europe - for the mere fact that enslavement between Christians was prohibited (Islam had the same rule between Muslims). Once Europe reached a critical mass, it was game over for slavery on that continent. Before then, Europeans were enslaving other Europeans and selling them to Jews, Muslims and others.

The example you gave concerning slavery is completely atypical in that it relates to Saracens, Muslims.

Again, we have to real about history; mutual enslavement between Christians and Muslims occurred from first contact. This was not retaliation, this was business as usual - and Jews were knee-deep in it:
“With the rise of Islam large opportunities were afforded to the Jews to supply Moslem slaves to the Christian world, and Christian slaves to that of Islam; and Ibn Khordadhbeh in the ninth century describes two routes by which Jewish slave-dealers carried such slaves from West to East and from East to West (see Commerce).”
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13798-slave-trade

Keep in mind that the Papal Bull I cited gave exclusive rights to the Portuguese King to raid for slaves (pagan and Muslim) in lower Africa - none of the Corsairs sailed from there, they all came from the Barbary Coast. The Africans of lower Sene-Gambia had nothing to do with European slave raiding - the Portuguese simply couldn't challenge North Africa where the threat was actually coming from, so they simply looked elsewhere for slaves.

enslaved by Islam into the worst form of slavery, chattel slavery

There was no chattel slavery sanctioned by Islam. Ronald Segal (who wrote the most comprehensive work on the African slave trade in the Muslim world) wrote:
“The relationship between slave and master in Islam is a very different relationship from that between the American plantation labourer and owner. It was a much more personalized relationship and relatively benevolent. Everything here is relative — being a slave is being a slave and it shouldn’t be romanticized.”

The fact that many captured Europeans led miserable lives as galley slaves has more to do with the fact that their masters were Corsairs (pirates in no uncertain terms) - and simply disregarded the religious rules for proper treatment of slaves (they drank pretty heavily also) as did most plantation owners in the West Indies. In fact, attempts by the CC at reforming the institution led to a massive revolt by landowners - look up Pizarro (Gonzalo, not Francisco).

I am pretty sure only Saracens caught slaving could be so reduced

Again, I believe you are reading into it what was never stated. The people (Muslim nor pagan) in that region of Africa had nothing to do with slave raiding into Europe.

I agree that the abolition of slavery was at likely 50% predicated on the fact that the Industrial Revolution made the owning of human slaves simply obsolete and, in certain instances, a liability.

Peace.

Hi Talha

Fantastic post. Hat tip to your historical knowledge.

People of the past felt that religion was the most important thing in their lives, it was the cornerstone of their identity. They didn’t have the same qualms as we do about enforcing religious edicts through the power of the state.

I understand that. And thinking about that issue has informed my thoughts about the Reformation and the present as I tried to make plain in one of my previous posts.

My point perhaps not clearly enough made is that there is a tension between enforcing uniformity and the ideal of free thought in Christianity which may not be present in other religions or states. The evidence for that is everywhere in their art, learning and political history and of course Luther himself who made the cornerstone of all his rebellion freedom of thought. The deadly consequences soon became apparent in the Peasants Rebellion. This single piece of history, large history informs all western history to the present day, as we constantly grapple with freedom of thought to discern truth and the chaos from bad ideas.

I am arguing clearly for Christianity as being exceptional in this regard, as bringing something new into the world. Prior to this men were either powerful or weak, the strong were better, and enforced themselves on the weak in many ways. This was their right due to their strength. Slavery was a natural part of this system.

Jesus changed this, every man now was equal in God’s eyes and all had their own salvation according to their choices in life. Even the very writings of Jesus are parables rich with symbolism and multiple meanings. Men chose their path, it was not forced upon them. The church opposed slavery in part based on these ideas, and it had to balance these ideas in the temporal matters of state.

Perhaps based on it’s own history of Paganism and the multiple sects which flared constantly in the Christian world it was cautious about free thinking. Arianism almost overthrew the church. It has been suggested that Islam itself was partly inspired by Arianism. The Cathars had to be put down with great force and death.

These points have often been used to condemn the Roman Church and label it repressive and evil and yet as the peasants revolt showed and many other instances in modern history the state has far more capacity for brutality and cruelty in enforcing its ideas. The Catholic church if any thing modifies this brutality based on the teachings of Jesus, particularly the emphasis on individual salvation.

Again I would say this is a tension implicit in Christianity itself and for better or worse it has led to the triumph and horrors of Christian European history itself.

If the independent Catholic church fell, it’s moral authority would fall

I've always thought of the Catholic Church (CC) to be (in whole) a force for the positive in human history. One of my spiritual guides remembers fondly his grade school instruction in a CC school in Pakistan and always speaks well of them.

Christianity started off as a victim of Imperial Rome; persecutions, killings, churches destroyed, libraries burnt, etc. Those are its origins. Then it went imperial after Constantine and didn't look back until relatively recently. In Byzantium, it was expected that the emperor enforce the correct creed and non-Chalcedonian Christians (like the Copts, Nestorians, etc.) had to evacuate outside its territory:
"Nestorian, member of a Christian sect originating in Asia Minor and Syria out of the condemnation of Nestorius and his teachings by the councils of Ephesus (ad 431) and Chalcedon (ad 451)...When supporters of Nestorius gathered at the theological school of Edessa, it was closed by imperial order in 489, and a vigorous Nestorian remnant migrated to Persia...After the Arab conquest of Persia (637), the Caliphate recognized the Church of the East as a millet, or separate religious community, and granted it legal protection. Nestorian scholars played a prominent role in the formation of Arab culture, and patriarchs occasionally gained influence with rulers. For more than three centuries the church prospered under the Caliphate, but it became worldly and lost leadership in the cultural sphere."
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Nestorians

Your mention of religious restrictions in Visigoth Spain, predate the Muslim invasions by decades - again some of the church officially felt its mandate was to purify the Iberian peninsula for Christianity:
“Even that last vestige of toleration of Judaism evaporated in 638 CE when the Sixth Council of Toledo reaffirmed the policy of forcibly baptizing all Iberian Jews. In fact, Toledo VI went far beyond Sisbut’s policy, not only advocating mandatory baptism, but declaring that the king’s right to rule was dependent on his working to eradicate Judaism…”

“The Sixth Council of Toledo confirmed the canons of the Fourth Council. King Chintila
committed himself not to allow anyone who is not Catholic to live in the kingdom. Moreover, a converts were obliged to make a profession of faith (placitum). Moreover, baptised Jews were blamed for any apostates found in their families. They were to kill their relapsed relatives by themselves in public….The Ninth Council of Toledo ordered converted Jews to spend all Jewish and Christian holy days in the presence of a bishop so as to prove the veracity of their faith.”

Religion is like that - I'm not saying the CC is evil - but it obviously had its issues coming to terms with what the state's relationship is with the religion

What I see often is that many people like to project our current sensibilities about religion and our view of the role of religion in society to the people of the past. It ends up creating a world that never existed. People of the past felt that religion was the most important thing in their lives, it was the cornerstone of their identity. They didn't have the same qualms as we do about enforcing religious edicts through the power of the state. We simply have to be truthful about it and let their words come through without only hearing what we would like to hear. As on slavery...

There is no doubt that the CC tried to lessen the dehumanization of slaves. And that it was important in the eradication of slavery in Europe - for the mere fact that enslavement between Christians was prohibited (Islam had the same rule between Muslims). Once Europe reached a critical mass, it was game over for slavery on that continent. Before then, Europeans were enslaving other Europeans and selling them to Jews, Muslims and others.

The example you gave concerning slavery is completely atypical in that it relates to Saracens, Muslims.

Again, we have to real about history; mutual enslavement between Christians and Muslims occurred from first contact. This was not retaliation, this was business as usual - and Jews were knee-deep in it:
“With the rise of Islam large opportunities were afforded to the Jews to supply Moslem slaves to the Christian world, and Christian slaves to that of Islam; and Ibn Khordadhbeh in the ninth century describes two routes by which Jewish slave-dealers carried such slaves from West to East and from East to West (see Commerce).”
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13798-slave-trade

Keep in mind that the Papal Bull I cited gave exclusive rights to the Portuguese King to raid for slaves (pagan and Muslim) in lower Africa - none of the Corsairs sailed from there, they all came from the Barbary Coast. The Africans of lower Sene-Gambia had nothing to do with European slave raiding - the Portuguese simply couldn't challenge North Africa where the threat was actually coming from, so they simply looked elsewhere for slaves.

enslaved by Islam into the worst form of slavery, chattel slavery

There was no chattel slavery sanctioned by Islam. Ronald Segal (who wrote the most comprehensive work on the African slave trade in the Muslim world) wrote:
“The relationship between slave and master in Islam is a very different relationship from that between the American plantation labourer and owner. It was a much more personalized relationship and relatively benevolent. Everything here is relative — being a slave is being a slave and it shouldn’t be romanticized.”

The fact that many captured Europeans led miserable lives as galley slaves has more to do with the fact that their masters were Corsairs (pirates in no uncertain terms) - and simply disregarded the religious rules for proper treatment of slaves (they drank pretty heavily also) as did most plantation owners in the West Indies. In fact, attempts by the CC at reforming the institution led to a massive revolt by landowners - look up Pizarro (Gonzalo, not Francisco).

I am pretty sure only Saracens caught slaving could be so reduced

Again, I believe you are reading into it what was never stated. The people (Muslim nor pagan) in that region of Africa had nothing to do with slave raiding into Europe.

I agree that the abolition of slavery was at likely 50% predicated on the fact that the Industrial Revolution made the owning of human slaves simply obsolete and, in certain instances, a liability.

Peace.

Hi Talha

There was no chattel slavery sanctioned by Islam.

You quote Ronald Segal. This is a quote from the Guardian review of his book:

Zanzibar was a black Belsen, a clearing house of shackled humanity, where the stench of death was masked by the cloves on which the island’s Omani emirs built a great trading empire.
Without a nascent industrial complex to feed, many of the men were castrated for domestic service or drafted into slave armies that emptied the lands around the great lakes of their peoples. One in 10, by some estimates, survived the trek from the interior. By the mid-19th century, when east African slave magnates – many of them the free sons of Arab slavers and their black concubines – ran out of infidels and animists to enslave, they, and the expanding black Islamic empires that supplied them, circumvented the scruples set out in the Koran and carried off their own on the flimsiest of criminal pretexts.
Slaves were the luxury goods the Islamic world seemed unable to wean itself off, despite hectoring from a self-righteous west that had embraced emancipation just as mechanisation had rendered slavery obsolete. Like horses and gold, slaves conferred status, and the most opulent households had thousands. When he died in 1870, one Arab official of the black state of Bornu on the shores of Lake Chad had several thousand slaves to complement his stable of 1,000 stallions.

He might argue that it is not strictly Chattel Slavery, but whatever it was was incredibly brutal. I suppose it is easy to be magnanimous when you have over 1000 slaves in your household and all the men are eunuchs.

You should try not to mince words here Talha, this type of slavery still continues in the Muslim world today, the man with 1000 slaves existed in the 19th century. How do you think such slaves were kept in line Talha, a glass of milk at night and pretty words. It was and must have been a brutal police state encompassing cruelty beyond description as powerful slaves oppressed the weak. For centuries. And not just Africa. The Sub-Continent was their other source of slaves. The men were immediately castrated and many simply died on route from blood loss. The suffering Talha.

The Catholic church ended that and deserved the credit for it.

The examples you give of slaving in Southern Europe do not hold water. It is one thing to use history to discern truth and another to use history to defend your current political views, no matter how well meaning they may be.

If widespread slavery was happening in Europe then there would be evidence. Christianity under the Catholic church has left the most amazing trail of primary and cultural evidence in history. Images of slaves do not appear. In other countries slaves become part of the economy, where is the evidence for that in Europe as a whole.

What I believe you are doing here is confusing two things. Outlaw slavers who were Christian or Jewish who kidnapped slaves to sell to Islam for profit. A problem Europe has always had. These groups essentially outlaws were beyond the reach of state power basically operating beyond its jurisprudence. It would be no surprise if the state allowed the operators to continue basically judging it was beyond their powers to stop. The same happens in our world in multiple ways even thought states have grown immeasurably in power since the Middle Ages. The second is of course that those Saracens or Pagans from Africa caught slaving could be enslaved themselves as a form of retaliation against their enslaving of Europeans.

I agree that the abolition of slavery was at likely 50% predicated on the fact that the Industrial Revolution made the owning of human slaves simply obsolete

This is putting the cart before the horse. The first European industrial revolution took place in the Middle Ages and was caused by the need to replace manpower because slaves were no longer available.

A few quotes from Jean Gimpel (1918–1996) was a French historian and medievalist…. In 1987 he was a founding vice-president of the Society for the History of Mediaeval Technology and Science, the British affiliate of AVISTA and the Association de Villard de Honnecourt.
The Middle Ages was one of the great inventive eras of mankind. It should be known as the first industrial revolution of Europe….
The medieval period witnessed one of the more rapid advances in the introduction of machinery in European history. This could not be accomplished without the effective taming of energy. The most common method was the mill – primarily water but also wind. These mills would grind corn, crush olives, tan leather, make paper, etc. While the Romans utilized the mill, it was not nearly to the extent utilized in these later periods. The relationship is inverse to the use of slaves in the economy – the increasing use of the mill corresponded with the drastic reduction of slavery during the Middle Ages.
Monasteries built in countries separated by thousands of miles – Portugal, Sweden, Scotland, Hungary – all had very similar waterpowered systems within almost universally similar plans for the monasteries themselves…. In certain ways the discipline imposed by Saint Bernard on his monks – the rigid timetable, the impossibility of deviating from the Rule without facing punishment – brings to mind the work regulations that Henry Ford imposed on his assembly lines.

It is wrong to suggest technology reduced slavery, it is the other way around and again the Catholic Church deserves full credit for this.

If the independent Catholic church fell, it’s moral authority would fall

I've always thought of the Catholic Church (CC) to be (in whole) a force for the positive in human history. One of my spiritual guides remembers fondly his grade school instruction in a CC school in Pakistan and always speaks well of them.

Christianity started off as a victim of Imperial Rome; persecutions, killings, churches destroyed, libraries burnt, etc. Those are its origins. Then it went imperial after Constantine and didn't look back until relatively recently. In Byzantium, it was expected that the emperor enforce the correct creed and non-Chalcedonian Christians (like the Copts, Nestorians, etc.) had to evacuate outside its territory:
"Nestorian, member of a Christian sect originating in Asia Minor and Syria out of the condemnation of Nestorius and his teachings by the councils of Ephesus (ad 431) and Chalcedon (ad 451)...When supporters of Nestorius gathered at the theological school of Edessa, it was closed by imperial order in 489, and a vigorous Nestorian remnant migrated to Persia...After the Arab conquest of Persia (637), the Caliphate recognized the Church of the East as a millet, or separate religious community, and granted it legal protection. Nestorian scholars played a prominent role in the formation of Arab culture, and patriarchs occasionally gained influence with rulers. For more than three centuries the church prospered under the Caliphate, but it became worldly and lost leadership in the cultural sphere."
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Nestorians

Your mention of religious restrictions in Visigoth Spain, predate the Muslim invasions by decades - again some of the church officially felt its mandate was to purify the Iberian peninsula for Christianity:
“Even that last vestige of toleration of Judaism evaporated in 638 CE when the Sixth Council of Toledo reaffirmed the policy of forcibly baptizing all Iberian Jews. In fact, Toledo VI went far beyond Sisbut’s policy, not only advocating mandatory baptism, but declaring that the king’s right to rule was dependent on his working to eradicate Judaism…”

“The Sixth Council of Toledo confirmed the canons of the Fourth Council. King Chintila
committed himself not to allow anyone who is not Catholic to live in the kingdom. Moreover, a converts were obliged to make a profession of faith (placitum). Moreover, baptised Jews were blamed for any apostates found in their families. They were to kill their relapsed relatives by themselves in public….The Ninth Council of Toledo ordered converted Jews to spend all Jewish and Christian holy days in the presence of a bishop so as to prove the veracity of their faith.”

Religion is like that - I'm not saying the CC is evil - but it obviously had its issues coming to terms with what the state's relationship is with the religion

What I see often is that many people like to project our current sensibilities about religion and our view of the role of religion in society to the people of the past. It ends up creating a world that never existed. People of the past felt that religion was the most important thing in their lives, it was the cornerstone of their identity. They didn't have the same qualms as we do about enforcing religious edicts through the power of the state. We simply have to be truthful about it and let their words come through without only hearing what we would like to hear. As on slavery...

There is no doubt that the CC tried to lessen the dehumanization of slaves. And that it was important in the eradication of slavery in Europe - for the mere fact that enslavement between Christians was prohibited (Islam had the same rule between Muslims). Once Europe reached a critical mass, it was game over for slavery on that continent. Before then, Europeans were enslaving other Europeans and selling them to Jews, Muslims and others.

The example you gave concerning slavery is completely atypical in that it relates to Saracens, Muslims.

Again, we have to real about history; mutual enslavement between Christians and Muslims occurred from first contact. This was not retaliation, this was business as usual - and Jews were knee-deep in it:
“With the rise of Islam large opportunities were afforded to the Jews to supply Moslem slaves to the Christian world, and Christian slaves to that of Islam; and Ibn Khordadhbeh in the ninth century describes two routes by which Jewish slave-dealers carried such slaves from West to East and from East to West (see Commerce).”
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13798-slave-trade

Keep in mind that the Papal Bull I cited gave exclusive rights to the Portuguese King to raid for slaves (pagan and Muslim) in lower Africa - none of the Corsairs sailed from there, they all came from the Barbary Coast. The Africans of lower Sene-Gambia had nothing to do with European slave raiding - the Portuguese simply couldn't challenge North Africa where the threat was actually coming from, so they simply looked elsewhere for slaves.

enslaved by Islam into the worst form of slavery, chattel slavery

There was no chattel slavery sanctioned by Islam. Ronald Segal (who wrote the most comprehensive work on the African slave trade in the Muslim world) wrote:
“The relationship between slave and master in Islam is a very different relationship from that between the American plantation labourer and owner. It was a much more personalized relationship and relatively benevolent. Everything here is relative — being a slave is being a slave and it shouldn’t be romanticized.”

The fact that many captured Europeans led miserable lives as galley slaves has more to do with the fact that their masters were Corsairs (pirates in no uncertain terms) - and simply disregarded the religious rules for proper treatment of slaves (they drank pretty heavily also) as did most plantation owners in the West Indies. In fact, attempts by the CC at reforming the institution led to a massive revolt by landowners - look up Pizarro (Gonzalo, not Francisco).

I am pretty sure only Saracens caught slaving could be so reduced

Again, I believe you are reading into it what was never stated. The people (Muslim nor pagan) in that region of Africa had nothing to do with slave raiding into Europe.

I agree that the abolition of slavery was at likely 50% predicated on the fact that the Industrial Revolution made the owning of human slaves simply obsolete and, in certain instances, a liability.

Peace.

Hi Talha

A further thought on this issue of slavery.

Slaves were often used for sexual purposes by their masters, not often mentioned or considered by scholars who tend to steer away from this subject.

Is there a relationship between the repeated attempts to free up sexual relations between the sexes in the west during various revolutions and sects and the lack of slaves being available to use for this purpose?

It is an interesting question to ask since we are still living through the latest attempt to make sex easily available for the powerful which has simply turned the west upside down and seems to be leading to a steep decline in our civilization.

Thanks Talha for your interesting and respectful posts. Much appreciated.

“for me, God has always meant = love...
if your heart is kind and your soul filled with grace, it doesn’t matter I suppose too much on which religion you believe, but the words and the actions of Jesus Christ were as close to what I’d consider the perfect expression of human perfection...”

“even if you take them at their word, the Holocaust was done as humanely as it’s was humanly possible to kill people. Sort of like the Soylent Green euthanasia scene the violins were playing as they were handed a towel to take a ‘shower’, and then the death was as benign as could be arranged under the circumstances. And that was their worst case scenario of the gas chambers...Compare that to Dresden, which is undisputed and was as calculatedly cruel and sadistic as it was possible to imagine. And then some.”
“and yet it’s the Germans who everyone condemns for inhumanity”

What do you think Rurik? Would Christ be handing out towels as the violins played?

Happy Easter!

Well, we can’t be sure about the state of Rurik’s soul, but we do know a venomous, mean-spirited comment when we read one. Well done. Was it the “seek that which is above” message or the imperfect messenger, one wonders?

yes they do, and a very warm and heartfelt Happy Easter to you and yours Veritatis,

for me, God has always meant = love

(organized religion or not)

if your heart is kind and your soul filled with grace, it doesn't matter I suppose too much on which religion you believe, but the words and the actions of Jesus Christ were as close to what I'd consider the perfect expression of human perfection. If a man ever was the embodiment of Truth and Love and Justice and Beautify, then surely He was it.

God bless

I'll leave you with these words ~

And seeing the multitudes, He went up into a mountain: and when He was set, His disciples came unto Him:

And He opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

~ it's because of words like this, and also because He took them (the Fiend) on, and sacrificed His life for us, that I consider him the perfect expression of Love

“Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. ”

I always respect someone willing to quote the Bible outside religious circles in these learned pagan times. Very counter-cultural! But maybe something of the radical christian message echoes within? A very Happy Easter to you too.

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