And we cannot(7), if we wish to be accurate, speak of Christ as having judgment (gnwmh) and preference(8 ). For judgment is a disposition with reference to the decision arrived at after investigation and deliberation concerning something unknown, that is to say, after counsel and decision. And after judgment comes preference(9), which chooses out and selects the one rather than the other. But the Lord being not mere man but also God, and knowing all things, had no need of inquiry. and investigation, and counsel, and decision, and by nature made whatever is good His own and whatever is bad foreign to Him(1). For thus says Isaiah the prophet, Before the child shall know to prefer the evil, he shall choose the good; because before the child knows good or evil, he refuses wickedness by choosing the good(2). For the word "before" proves that it is not with investigation and deliberation, as is the way with us, but as God and as subsisting in a divine manner in the flesh, that is to say, being united in subsistence to the flesh, and because of His very existence and all-embracing knowledge, that He is possessed of good in His own nature.St.John of Damascus The Orthodox Faith

It is blasphemous to speak of the Lord as if he were just a 'Middle-Eastern' guy and it is even worse to speak of the Lord enjoying music in the way created human beings do.

As for this on-going debate about why passionate music is not good spiritually you should consider that there is no mention of the Lord laughing, dancing, or listening to folk music in the Gospels nor praise for wordly living throughout the New Testament. You can also consult the Fathers"Do not submit your souls to corrupt melodies that come to us through the ears. Many passions that enslave us have been have been caused to grow in our natures by this sort of music."-St.Basil the Great "Address to the Young Men"As a young man I think you should take his advice Matthew. I could of course go on and mention other Fathers and quote the whole first portion of Chapter Four "Guarding the Sense of Hearing" from St.Nikodemos the Hagiorite's book Spiritual Counsels which is specifically about the spiritual problems caused by listening to hedonistic music but I doubt it would change your mind.

I don't mean to diverge from the hip hop topic, but has anyone ever looked at Place of Skulls website? www.placeofskulls.com I would really like to hear an Orthodox perspective on it. Their singer is born-again now, after years in metal bands. One of the guys from Spirit Caravan was in POS, and I'm a huge Spirit Caravan fan. This music quandry tortures me beyond belief! I only listened to chant during Lent, and it wasn't hard, but I'm still going to see Dixie Witch this month! I don't know, the angriest punk music never made me feel "unreligious" It certainly made me angry at other things, but not religion. I think part of the problem is, since the seventies really, youth culture is so much defined by what you listen to. It associates with a group, or sets you apart (you know, 'I listen to band no one has every heard of.') I'm sorry to jump in here, but I struggle with this subject, and it's interesting to hear other ideas and experiences.

It is blasphemous to speak of the Lord as if he were just a 'Middle-Eastern' guy and it is even worse to speak of the Lord enjoying music in the way created human beings do.

Think of Jesus at the wedding of Canna. He's enjoying His company, sipping some good wine, and I'm sure He was enjoying the music also. Jesus had a divine nature but He also had a human nature that was able to enjoy life.

There ought to be an Orthodox remake of that record. Instead of "F**K THE POLICE" ..it should be "F**K THE EVIL ONE", and " STRAIGHT OUTA ATHOS"...etc... To those I`ve offended ..forgive me. CHRIST IS RISEN!!!!!!!!!!!! +++

MO

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"Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names." - John F. Kennedy (1917-1963)

Holy Paraclete, bless this beat Move your feet, feel the holy heat. The Lord Yahweh blessed this day so stand up Hey! rejoice and say

Hosanna in the highest cuz Jesus Christ is the flyest Hosanna in the highest cuz Jesus Christ is the tightest

You know what it's like to be a sinner but Christ's atonement makes you a winner. You know what it's like to feel dead inside so let the Lord God humble your pride. You know what it's like to feel dead inside so let the Lord be your spiritual guide.

There is no MC who rocks a party quite like JC so come with me and He'll set you free. He is worthy of the praise we bring so come along and sing praise to the King.

Receieve the Eucharist and persist in your quest for holiness. Receive the Eucharist, you can't resist this blessed kiss so unclench your fist, you can't fight this.

Yeshua the Messiah, gonna bring us higher Yeshua the Messiah, the Lamb ain't no liar Glory be to the Father, give Him all your honor (Word to your mother!) Glory be to the Son, He is the Holy One. Glory be to the Spirit Brotha, can you feel it?

Hosanna in the highest cuz Jesus Christ is the flyest Hosanna in the highest cuz Jesus Christ is the tightest

Our Father who art in Heaven, hollowed be thy name who rests on day number seven, give him all the fame. Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, on heaven and on earth. Give up your gun, accept the Son, the source of endless mirth. Give us this day our daily bread, excellent like Bill and Ted Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors, Oh King of Kings and Lord of Lords! Free us from temptation, deliver us from the Evil One You are my liberation with the blood of the Son, For thine is the Kingdom and the Power and the Glory now and everlasting. Yo homeboys, are my rhymes a-blasting?

Hosanna in the highest cuz Jesus Christ is the flyest Hosanna in the highest cuz Jesus Christ is the tightest Hosanna in the highest cuz Jesus Christ is the flyest Hosanna in the highest cuz Jesus Christ is the tightest, cuz Jesus Christ is the tightest, cuz Jesus Christ is the tightest. cuz Jesus Christ is the tighest,

Jesus Christ is the- Wha? I said Jesus Christ is the tightest! I can rap for the Lord, even though I'm the whitest!

Snow:INFORMER LYRICS What’s up man! hey yo what’s up!Yeah what’s goin’ on here.Sick an’ tired of five-oh runnin’ up on the block here.You know what I’m sayin’? Yo snow, they came around here lookin’ for you the other day.Word? word! bust it!

Police them come an’ now they blow down me door,One him come crawl through, through my window,So then they put me in the back the car at the station,From that point on me reach my destination,When the destination reached, it was the east detention, where themWhipped down me pants, looked up me bottom, so

Chorus

Bigger they are they think they have more power,They’re on the phone me say that on (every) hour,Me for want to use it once an’ now me call me lover,Lover who I’ll be callin is the one tammy,An’ me love her in me heart down to my belly,Yes me daddy me snow me I feel cool an’ deadly,As the one mc shan an’ the one daddy snow,Together we-a love’em as a tor-na-do.

Chorus

Listen for me, you better listen for me now.Listen for me, you better listen for me now.When me rockin’ the microphone me rock it steady,Yes sir, daddy me snow me are the article done.But in the in an’ the out of a dance them they say where you come from,People them say you come from jamaica,But me born an’ raised in the ghetto that’s the one I want you to know,Pure black people mon that’s all I mon know.Yeah me shoes are tear up an’ me toes used to show,Where me born in on the one toronto, so

Chorus

Come with a nice young lady. intelligent,Yes she’s gentle an’ irie.Everywhere me go, me never left her at all.Yes, it’s daddy snow me are the roam dance mon.Roam between a dancin’ in a in a nation-a.You never know say daddy me snow me are the boom shakata.Me never lay-a down flat in that one cardboard box.Yes say me daddy me snow me I’ll go reachin’ at the top, so...

Given that Holy Hip-Hop gives praise to Jesus Christ, I'd assume that He'd be rather pleased.

Typical Modernism. Pentecoastals and/or ? Charismatics would say the Lord is pleased when they start crying in church when mushy rock songs with 'Christ-centered lyrics' are played. Oh! Yes Feel that holy spirit. What a bunch of balogna.

I 'enjoyed' enough rap music in my life to know better. By the way Wagner, Brahms, Mussorgsky, Massinet, are their compositions bad music. I used to go to clubs, drink and dance with girls. I used to smoke weed and do a lot of other things. I used to 'enjoy' nodding my head and listening to Tupac. In fact Tupac was my idol. Even now I still feel he had some positive influence on my life but in the end it had nothing to do with rap music. Rather it had to do with his tragic life and how much the actions of my sordid youth relate to his. But in the end what was the point of it all. Years of wasting my time listening to music that does not take away the pain or inspire you to change. Rather it gave me a fatalistic outlook that I was born a bad apple and nothing was going to change that. It wasn't until the door flung open and the light poored in that I really so how filthy and vile the passionate life is. I threw out all my rap albums, among other things, and resolved to change my life. I thank God that He moved me to seek the other world.

Matthew your inability to get this is really bugging me. Why is it that you cannot see God does not seek people to worship him in a passionate way. Your are just denying the obvious. 'Christian' rap is just as idiotic as 'Christian' rock. A bunch of guys with tattoos and bad hairdos screaming PRAISE HIM! AAAAAMEN! and all that jazz.

What people should do is look to the heavenly things and not entrench themselves further in worldly pursuits that lead to ruin.

I'm going through a "rise" on my cyclothymic disorder cycles now....I'm looking back at that post and thoroughly regretting it.....please accept my apologies.....was in an awful mood when I wrote that (not that that's an excuse).

Hip-hop is hyped up, hopped up, pop trash. It is about as much a part of the “good things in life” as a scrumptious bowl of fresh dog feces.

When my wife wants to give me a nice treat, she plays some of Bach's partitas for violin transcribed for the flute. That's live in my living room. Our house is always full of music: MUSIC, made by people and not a mindless, endless drum machine loop.

Take my advice earlier in this thread and get a copy of Morimur or Tabula Rasa by Arvo Part. Go spend your money on a concert where MUSICIANS perform without profanity. I'm not saying anything about their personal lives, but I am saying that they are actually musicians with skills that go beyond the glorious ability to manipulate pre-recorded sounds.

Do I think that Palestrina, Desprez, Bach and even, God forbid, Philip Glass are more "spiritual" than hip-hop? That's a rhetorical question.

This has nothing to do with growing up poor in a particular region.

Hip-hop is minimalism at its most uncreative and poetry at its most vile. The lyrics are crass, often unintelligible, and violent. Why would any so-called Christian group want to imitate this excrement when they could be imitating Thomas Tallis, Monteverdi, Bach, Haydn, Schubert, Dvorak, Gorecki and Part? It's simple. First, since they lack the mental faculty and the musical ability required to create something decent, they record pathetic lyrics over drum machines and looped clips turned up to an ear shattering volume, apparently to share their stench with the rest of creation. Second, people WANT crass. They WANT to return to their vomit again and again. Changing some of the lyrics in hip-hop to make it “Christian” is like adding truffle p+ÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â³t+Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¬ to your bowl of steaming dog turd and calling it “gourmet.”

I've just been staying out of this stupid thread, but I can't stand it any longer.

I think some of you guys are getting a bit personal...(cizenec posted while I was writing so I am not referring to him)

I love jazz, urban folk, jazz-influenced rock and celtic/bluegrass music. So I certainly enjoy popular music. But I have a son enmeshed in hiphop, who like Sabbas in reporting feelings from his past, feels that he is a bad apple and almost fatalistically progammed to be as he is. I can only pray that the Light will shine into his life as it did for Sabbas.

Also, like one local sports talk show host recently said, black people used to always make all the cool music, now it's an embarassment that the originators of spirituals, ragtime, jazz, rhythm&blues, blues, soul and motown put out this stuff

Some of it is catchy and entertaining. But alot more of it is sing-songish and monotonously repetitive.

Sounds like people are confusing two branches of philosophy: ethics and aesthetics. Just because a certain genre of music isn't as technically complex or as aesthetically pleasing as another, doesn't mean it is thereby more "immoral" than the other. Orthodox Christianity is not some elitist Country Club. There is no necessary logical connection between synth lines, drum loops and violent, sexist lyrics. But neither is there any logical connection between synth lines, drum loops and Christian, praise lyrics. They are nothing but disturbances and waves through the air's molecules....what does that have to do with how one lives their life?

And not all compositional music is moral either. What about the the belligerent nationalism, nihilism, and anti-semitism of Richard Wagner? What about Stravinsky, who, in the words of Mr. Holland from "Mr. Holland's Opus" was the composer of the Bolshevik Revolution?

Morality has absolutely nothing to do with the way a certain type of music sounds.

Sabbas is right, we are called not to entrench oursleves to the world, to stop being of the world.

This principle only contradicts the issues Sabbas was addressing, under his fallacious presumptions concerning those very issues.

There is nothing dangerously passionate about listening to extra-Orthodoxical (Yes, I did just make that word up) music. Christin hip-hop may be as inspirational and moving to a street kid, as a liturgical hymn is inspirational and moving to us; and who is to say it is of any less value in praise before God? Now don't get me wrong, I am certainly not saying that we should do anything as outrageous as start replacing our Holy hymns with wordly music simply because it portrays the same central theme; what I am saying is that CONTEXT cannot be disregarded. My reply to Cizinec shall further elucidate my very simple position on this matter:

Ciznic,

Your post over-simplifies the matter, makes unwarranted generalizations, and does not look beyond your personal subjective world. Think about the kids of secular society who grow up with their ears tuned and glued to a particular style or rhythm. If a rap group such as Cross Movement, are capable of maintaining that appeal, whilst redirecting the focus and content, such that it ultimately has a positive influence on some kid who is brought up in an environment where sex, drugs and violence are the norm and trend; then God Bless Cross Movement. God's grace works in mysterious and unlimited ways (who are we to restrict His activities?), and His love is testified to all, such that all are called to receive it; and I see no reason why one cannot acknowledge that where hip hop may be a significant cultural element of certain societies, that God can ultimately use it for His own purposes to testify to those listeners in a manner which appeals to them - to direct an already influential element of society (pop/rap/rock music) in a positive direction.

Let us widen the scope of our reasoning, and seek to understand these matters beyond our own little subjective world - to a world that does not know God let alone the God of Orthodox Christianity. The hip-hip group that I mentioned above; Cross Movemenet, in fact have their own ministry: http://www.crossmovement.org/cmministries.asp. Check it out, especially the testimonies, and try reconsider your position.

Peace.

« Last Edit: May 26, 2005, 03:25:08 PM by EkhristosAnesti »

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No longer an active member of this forum. Sincerest apologies to anyone who has taken offence to anything posted in youthful ignorance or negligence prior to my leaving this forum - October, 2012.

"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus

There is nothing dangerously passionate about listening to extra-Orthodoxical (Yes, I did just make that word up) music.

This is an opinion of yours and I think to say there is NOTHING dangerously passionate is wrong, since maybe there is not to you, but is to others.

I agree that so-called "Christian Rock & Rap" which is usually Protestant can be a crossover for someone from secular to spiritual, but then one can leave that bridge and found themselves in the purely spiritual once they have made that transition. Being not of the world in not instantaneous, but would should all strive for that as a goal.

I'm going through a "rise" on my cyclothymic disorder cycles now....I'm looking back at that post and thoroughly regretting it.....please accept my apologies.....was in an awful mood when I wrote that (not that that's an excuse).

I am not bothered. I have a tendency to rub people the wrong way because I often come off like a know-it-all. I don't know anything that I was not taught by someone else but I am self-righteous and tend to overstate my opinions. I ended up offending Anastasios earlier in this discussion and for that I am also sorry. I only wanted to state my opinion while also showing that the Fathers have always been very strict, more strict than I could probably handle, when it came to listening to music. I know they would look down on my listening to Romance composers particularly Wagner and Debussy who utilize pagan themes in their compositions. I try and keep it in moderation and listen more to Church chants. As for being pretentious and pompous I would say it comes from seeing myself as somehow unique because of all my past experiences as well as feeling proud to be of German descent. I know Nationalism is a heresy but it is something I was imbued with as a kid and has never really left me. I suppose listening to Wagner does not help this. Anyway you were right on the first time. I am indeed all the things you said and more.

Hip-hop is minimalism at its most uncreative and poetry at its most vile. The lyrics are crass, often unintelligible, and violent. Why would any so-called Christian group want to imitate this excrement when they could be imitating Thomas Tallis, Monteverdi, Bach, Haydn, Schubert, Dvorak, Gorecki and Part? It's simple. First, since they lack the mental faculty and the musical ability required to create something decent, they record pathetic lyrics over drum machines and looped clips turned up to an ear shattering volume, apparently to share their stench with the rest of creation. Second, people WANT crass. They WANT to return to their vomit again and again. Changing some of the lyrics in hip-hop to make it “Christian” is like adding truffle p+ÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â³t+Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¬ to your bowl of steaming dog turd and calling it “gourmet.”

This is also what I was trying to say in addition to making arguments from the Fathers about the passionate nature of rap music.

I say Sabbas possesses the attributes of one who most probably used to be a KJV bible-thumping fundie evangelical. What do y’all say?

Peace.

As far as I know no one in my family out to my third cousins and back to my great-great grandparents have ever been fundie evangelicals. I had a great grandma who was a strict Episcopal-Methodist and went to church every Sunday but that is quite different from an evangelical. Many of my relatives were staunch but lax Roman Catholics, if that makes sense. They were thoroughly RC but were not very strict with themselves. All of them drank and smoked but were not excessive. Many of them had nothing but derision for fundamentalists. If anything my family is known for being good in athletics not thumping bibles.

I think some of you guys are getting a bit personal...(cizenec posted while I was writing so I am not referring to him)

I love jazz, urban folk, jazz-influenced rock and celtic/bluegrass music. So I certainly enjoy popular music. But I have a son enmeshed in hiphop, who like Sabbas in reporting feelings from his past, feels that he is a bad apple and almost fatalistically progammed to be as he is. I can only pray that the Light will shine into his life as it did for Sabbas.

I pray it will. I hope you are doing everything you can to help him. I also hope he has not got into the dark side of life. Don't let handguns and drugs become a part of his life because that results in a lot of things rap music on its own can never do.But don't be too worried and also tell your son, I assume he is still in high school? that you really can clean yourself up. I graduated in the bottom fifth of my high school class but am now on the dean's list at college. Anything is possible if you try.

Hip-hop is minimalism at its most uncreative and poetry at its most vile.

The Roots, Outkast, and the Beastie Boys are some of the most creative and innovative musical groups of the past twenty years. The Roots are a jazz band that rap to recordings of their jams, not just a bunch of guys who happen to own a drum machine.

Why would any so-called Christian group want to imitate this excrement...

The whole point of being a Christian hip-hop group is to NOT imitate the retarded "gangsta" rap that you seem to think is the only hip-hop music. Some Christian hip-hop groups are actually more innovative than most of mainstream music.

Quote from: EkhristosAnesti on Today at 03:22:09 PMThere is nothing dangerously passionate about listening to extra-Orthodoxical (Yes, I did just make that word up) music.

This is an opinion of yours and I think to say there is NOTHING dangerously passionate is wrong, since maybe there is not to you, but is to others.

I only meant that statement in the context of my entire discussion which essentially qualified it. Excluding it like that it is misleading in its implications. If that statement were to convey my appropriate intention it would be qualified by the clause “per se”.

There is nothing dangerously passionate about listening to extra-Orthodoxical (Yes, I did just make that word up) music per se.

Quote

Being not of the world in not instantaneous, but would should all strive for that as a goal.

My point is, that paradoxically, through what has been understood here as “worldy music” can indeed be the transportation of some drug dealer or street thug “out of this world”.

Peace.

« Last Edit: May 26, 2005, 03:38:14 PM by EkhristosAnesti »

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No longer an active member of this forum. Sincerest apologies to anyone who has taken offence to anything posted in youthful ignorance or negligence prior to my leaving this forum - October, 2012.

"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus

Just because a certain genre of music isn't as technically complex or as aesthetically pleasing as another, doesn't mean it is thereby more "immoral" than the other.

No, but it's still crap.

Quote

And not all compositional music is moral either. What about the the belligerent nationalism, nihilism, and anti-semitism of Richard Wagner? What about Stravinsky, who, in the words of Mr. Holland from "Mr. Holland's Opus" was the composer of the Bolshevik Revolution?

Holy cow, man, do you put Wagner and "Mr. Holland's Opus" on the same level? I disilke Wagner, but putting some "B" pop movie as the poster child for "compositional music" is a huge stretch. I guess "Mr. Holland" said Stravinsky was a Bolshevik, so it must be true. I don't like Wagner, but he was much more gifted the Tupac, regardless of the message. It actually takes some work to completely understand Wagner's message, no matter how vile. Wagner did more than compose music, in case you didn't know.

Think about the kids of secular society who grow up with their ears tuned and glued to a particular style or rhythm.

That's my problem. The kids of our society don't know anything but this trash and are socially conditioned to look down on anything else. "Prettyfying" it isn't going to correct the fact that most kids are so narrow and lacking in depth of any kind that a half-witted English professor can turn a number of them into rabid atheists and Marxists in half a semester. Changing the lyrics isn't going to solve that problem.

All hip-hop music is crap? I'm sure you've probably never even heard a good hip-hop record. Instead of having an actual experience of good hip-hop, all you have is willful ignorance and a charicature of the real music.