I've been dancing lindy hop for more than a couple years now and I cut my teeth on 6 count patterns. Your numbers 1+2 3+4 5 6 match up with what I first learned but the rhythm you assign doesn't.

If what you assert about eight and quarter notes is what you meant to say your rhythm is actually: one, two& three, four& five, six. That is a far cry from everyone I've ever seen teach and every video, including Frankie Manning's I've ever seen.

So if this is what you meant to write why? I'm curious since it doesn't match any other teaching I've ever scene. Does it seem to work better for you? Why does it work better?

If it isn't please fix it. Otherwise there are going to be some very confused beginners out there who learn using your method and then try and dance socially. It's not very fair to them and they'll probably quit rather than try and fix it.

New Member

Guys,
All the Quoting your doing is mostly out of context or with a few unintentional mis-quotes; it's a way of distorting the real sense of a commentary. And Vince I only competed in three Contests in my life, The first was where I won the Valentino Tango Trophy in 1951 at the Hollywood Palladium and two contests in Lindy in 1957; one at the Club Madelon where I came in third, and the following Thursday at the Hollywood Tailspin where I came in First and Second with two different ladies I had never before danced with and only had a couple of hours rehearsal with. And after the contest I was threatened by a group of the contest losers with bodily harm if I ever tried to enter another Swing contest; I was that bad! Incidently all but two of those contestants are still alive and dancing.
And D'nice, Again you are mis-quoting me,. I never said, " the differences between WCS and ECS was 'rocking back or rocking forward'. What I said was 'You can IDENTIFY a Savoy Lindy dancer by the Lady always Rocking back'. Once again D'nice I snared you in my bear trap! The 'Lady's Back Rock' is only one Savoy identification technique. For future additional Savoy Techniques, watch dance-forums; I will be posting the original classic Savoy techniques after September 1st.
For an earlier preview of these 'Savoy Techniques', just Email me the word, 'ABSOLUTELY'. &lt;d.lanza@netzero.net>
Black Sheep, your friendly instructor.

New Member

Diff e. g.,
Some of my best friends count the Lindy differently than I do, in my 'Magic Pill' program. So your way of counting is juist as valid as their's is.
I did not create the 'Magic Pill' for Swing pundits like yourself; my Magic Pill is for the 'New Wave' of dancers who inside of one year will be winning most of the Swing Contests on this earth.
Black Sheep

G

Guest

Guest

And D'nice, Again you are mis-quoting me,. I never said, " the differences between WCS and ECS was 'rocking back or rocking forward'. What I said was 'You can IDENTIFY a Savoy Lindy dancer by the Lady always Rocking back'. Once again D'nice I snared you in my bear trap!

Hey Joe, or anyone else who knows, what page are you getting this response from? I'm having a little difficulty spotting the conversation line as I can't see this part of the discussion in this thread, but I'm probably just overlooking the obvious.

New Member

To the Unbelievers,
The difference between an arduously detailed theoretical dissertation on 'following' and my plain and laconic instructions is, 'I have successfully used my teaching method of following since 1949, and I have often tested my techniques of following by blind folding the ladies and leading them through dozens of Ballroom including Swing moves.
With one exception; 'The ladies have to be fairly proficient disciplined Swing dancers; inexperienced undisciplined dancers are always difficult to lead.
Anybody out there want to physically challenge me on this claim that my Sixth Method of Following is infallible?
Black Sheep, your friendly instructer

Joe, the quotes from you while possibly out of context (though very nearly every quote I have made to date has included more than a single sentencer, unless you have set it up as a list) they aren't misquotes. That is the beauty of a forum like this. We have at our acdcess the quote function button, which copies your own words down for us so we do not mistakenly create abberations in your text. We also have at our disposal th escroll bar which enables everyone reading to scroll back up to the original post you have made. Lastly we have the edit notificaton, which shows when and how many times a post has been edited by its author, preventing posters from saying one thing, being called on, and then going back and editing the refuted comment in an attempt to remove evidence.

Can you point out where someone has quoted you incorrectly? If so PM me and I'll ask them to please rectify the situation.

New Member

Diff e. g.,
Some of my best friends count the Lindy differently than I do, in my 'Magic Pill' program. So your way of counting is juist as valid as their's is.
I did not create the 'Magic Pill' for Swing pundits like yourself; my Magic Pill is for the 'New Wave' of dancers who inside of one year will be winning most of the Swing Contests on this earth.
Black Sheep

Two problems...One, the way you have it know has, as Diff e.g., the emphasis now not on the Upbeat but on the & after the Upbeat. This is a clear violation of your own guidelines in the Magic Pill.

Two, If the rules are not internally consistant it will only confuse students not make it easier for them to dance, and if they stick through it, they will find that they will have to completely change the way they currently dance to progress further. Their rhythm will be off with both the music and the rhythm others dance in.

New Member

And D'nice, Again you are mis-quoting me,. I never said, " the differences between WCS and ECS was 'rocking back or rocking forward'. What I said was 'You can IDENTIFY a Savoy Lindy dancer by the Lady always Rocking back'. Once again D'nice I snared you in my bear trap! The 'Lady's Back Rock' is only one Savoy identification technique. For future additional Savoy Techniques, watch dance-forums; I will be posting the original classic Savoy techniques after September 1st.

Joe... now you are misquoting me... what I did, since there was no use of the quote function or quotation marks, was at worst a mischaracterization of your statements... Lets scroll up and see what I actually wrote:

Joe's stated differentiation between WCS and Lindy Hop seems to be only whether the follower rocks back or steps forward on one.

So what we have is me saying that the only thing you have said on this forum about telling the difference between the two dances is that step. Have you infact given other indicators or elements which seperate the two? Please provide a link for us to this statement of yours. If not, then I did not misquote (especially since their was no quotation) or mischaracterize your statement.

New Member

Members of the jury,
If you have tried the Magic Pill, 15 minute Lindy teaching technique, I beseech you to put an end to the attempt to discredtit the effectiveness of my Magisc Pill. All I need is one person who has successfully used my teaching method to say. "Yes, it works" so we can close this thread with dignity.
Black Sheep, your friendly instructer.

Administrator

Yes, your magic pill has it's benefits and is a good method for getting people started with ECS. I'd like to place added emphasis on the way you say how important it is to repeat the rhythm over and over, as well as the practice the rock step over and over being sure they are making 2 weight changes. There are SO MANY men with a dead right foot on the rock step.

While some have been knocking you, I think those same people should try to find some of the good points of the teaching method you present. As a matter of fact, I challenge them to do this. Let's focus on the 6-count basic. If there are any improvements that can be made to your method, let's discuss them.

Once again, I want to remind people this is supposed to be an easy going place. My new avatar is a picture of me on my wedding day. Please don't ruin my wedding day. :lol:

New Member

It is a very simple form which follows an obvious pattern. Constant emphaisis on the rhythm is key to getting new dancers to get into their bones. Constant repetition will create muscle memory which will help the dancers execute the steps.

I think it is a fair method of teaching East Coast Swing.

I do have numerous issues with it, and those tend to be my focus, not because I'm a negative person, but because I can see ways that it could be improved upon.

New Member

Magic Pill Addicts,
There are a few Savoy Techniques that will enhance the Magic Pill's effectiveness. However, teach these techniques only after you have your student performing the 6 Teaching Procedural steps under the Magic Pill format confidently. Please keep in mind, this teaching/learning method is copyrighted and is suggested to be used only as a unit without adulterating the context by changing any elements of the format that would corrupt and diminish the effectiveness of this 50+ years teaching experience which has been personally tested sucessfully countless times:
1) Lady keeps her hand in hooked position at all times so man's hands do not slip away on fast grabs, and even when turning the hooked hands work like universal joints;
2) On entering into a closed dance position from an open position, Lady's right foot ends up between man's two feet at the end of the ' 1 &2 ';
3) In any turning move, partners should lean back on the centrifugal force rather then leaning toward each other;
4) On the '3 &4', the Lady's in-place steps should not be wide steps moving side to side in an exaggerated motion;
5) the body weight should be over the balls of feet with knees slightly bent, and tuck your butt in, do not assume an exaggerated sitting position; besides the aesthetics it is the wrong posture for good balance especially when you begin learning pirouettes;
6) When returning to a closed position, Lady should head straight for man's right shoulder causing him to turn slightly to his right, instead of Lady returning directly in front of man in a sort of face to face blocking position that prevents him from leading you into any Whip variations.

NOTE: These techniques are effective for all Swing dancers, but they are techniques that are often lost from the original Savoy Lindy Hop.

New Member

I do not believe you can copyright a "methodology" (which is what the magic pill essentially is). I think you can patent methodology because technically methodology is a technology but you can only copyright copy (that is presented information, and even then information is copyrighted, just the copy). So while the copy for your magic pill can be copyrighted, the metods themselves can't be.

1) Lady keeps her hand in hooked position at all times so man's hands do not slip away on fast grabs, and even when turning the hooked hands work like universal joints;

bad physics here. This is the beginnings of jerk and twirl. I don't know about you, but I've never seen the word "lean" inspire a beginner to do anything but bend at the waist and throw his/her shoulders around.

If you're trying to teach beginners how to control movement why are you telling them to increase the rotational force (which is exactly what telling them to lean will do)? That just makes control harder. Better to tell them to stand up straight and bend their knees and maybe increase the space between them, but never never never "lean back" ugh it just sounds ugly.

4) On the '3 &4', the Lady's in-place steps should not be wide steps moving side to side in an exaggerated motion;

ah... a return to truth, the gospel of small steps. It makes me smile.

5) the body weight should be over the balls of feet with knees slightly bent, and tuck your butt in, do not assume an exaggerated sitting position; besides the aesthetics it is the wrong posture for good balance especially when you begin learning pirouettes;

stick with this and get rid of #3. question... but question, what do pirouettes have to do with learning to swing dance?

6) When returning to a closed position, Lady should head straight for man's right shoulder causing him to turn slightly to his right, instead of Lady returning directly in front of man in a sort of face to face blocking position that prevents him from leading you into any Whip variations.

Shouldn't the lady just walk straight? I do believe the leaders job is to lead her where he wants to go. What if I want her directly in front of me for any number of reasons, I don't want her aiming for my right shoulder as a rule. Besides, this leads to running around your lead, hardly a good habit to teach a whip from.

I think you make some good points. Points that are not, however, unique to your magic pill. I think your magic pill is a good rough draft of potentially effective teaching. But I've seen much more effective teaching than what you've outlined. The magic pill is hardly an end all of 6 count lindy instruction as you purport, but it is an effective starting point.

New Member

Magic Pill Addicts,
When teaching a student, I always have one rule, "I will give you my
best efforts in teaching you, but be warned, as soon as you begin to show
promise, everyone will try to get on your bandwagon and begin confusing you by giving you advice so that they can take credit for your progress and accomplishments. It is a way of aggrandizing themselves by arbitrarily making trivial criticisms of the original creation.
The Magic Pill and its techniques work 100 % of the time if you follow
the instructions precisely. And I am reminded of the movie tycoon, Samuel Goldwyn's consoling words when Robert Taylor cried on his shoulder because of the negative reports by critics of his last performance: Sam told Robert, and I have to paraphrase here, 'critics are paid peanuts for criticizing stars like you.' And I would add my own saying, "There are the creative originators and then there are those who can't create, so they criticize." Joe Lanza 2003 a.d.
Black Sheep, your friendly instructer.

New Member

Nuevo Maestros,
Today I will Share Six Savoy Techniques That are almost a lost art. Fortunately, when I decided to leave the dance business in 1963 to teach at Lafayette High School in Brooklyn, I decided to write my dance knowledge down in two manuscripts which I still have in tact. Some of the Savoy techniques I have published in my 1999 book, 'Lindy by Lanza', so you don't have to buy the book, since I am copying the techniques directly from page 80 to 86. The six techniques listed are only a part of the total techniques from my book, but I know these six are crucial in making you a smoother well coordinated dancer within a very short time of practice.
Savoy Techniques:
1) Resistance:There should be a constant push and pull resistance between the partners' hands so that every lead given by the man is transferred to the Lady like a puppet on a string. To sustain resistance, Lady keeps firm but relaxed arms with a slight bend at the elbows; it is very much like holding the reins of a spirited horse at a gentle trot, not too tight by steady without arms going limp when Man pulls or pushes. It takes a little practice to get that right feeling of resistance, but the effort is worth the results of dancing in complete unison with the man.
2) Directional Control: The Man is the pivotal point around which the Lady dances. The Lady is the Showpiece while the man is the Puppeteer who pulls the strings gently but firmly to allow her to dance in intricate and graceful configuration under his precise control;
3) Dancing in a Rectangle: Although there are many moves that move in circles, it is good training to learn how to dance inside a prescribed Rectangle called a 'Slot' the dimensions are about two feet wide and six feet long. The lady travels in straight lines within the Slot when in open position. The direction of the slot can change when the Man pulls the Lady into closed position always rotating to his right or even while in open position with a little wrist action. The Lady keeps in alignment by passing close to the Man on each pull through when traveling to opposite side of slot. This technique is especially useful on crowded dance floors.
4) Body Leads: In the Savoy Style Lindy, the Man always Rocks on the '5-6' in the direction of his lead, and by dipping his leading shoulder slightly in that direction as the Lady gets an unmistakable lead that she can't refuse.
5) When dancers use a 'Kick Ball Change' or any other substitute for the Rock Step, place an '&' count between the '5-6' and count it '5 &6', giving it the same rhythmic count as the '1 &2' or 'Slow, Quick, Quick, one Quarter and two eighth steps.
6) Syncopation: Accenting the up-beat with a slight lilt of the upper body and a slight spring in the ankles will enhance the feeling of rhythmic dancing significantly. Without this Syncopation, the Lindy doesn't have that Swing, and like the Duke once said in 1932, "It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing".
NOTE: Just because a teacher uses one of these techniques in his lesson, it doesn't mean he is teaching the Joe Lanza Magic Pill!

New Member

Magic Pill Addicts,
When teaching a student, I always have one rule, "I will give you my
best efforts in teaching you, but be warned, as soon as you begin to show
promise, everyone will try to get on your bandwagon and begin confusing you by giving you advice so that they can take credit for your progress and accomplishments. It is a way of aggrandizing themselves by arbitrarily making trivial criticisms of the original creation."

What I've found is that caring individuals will often see someone teaching people incorrectly on the side of the floor and will offer their comments in an effort to head off any damaging "instruction" or simple oversight on the part of the self appointed teacher that may lead to bad habits being formed. Now of course I am not saying that this is the case with you, simply showing another side to why people will often give constructive criticism to people who are just learning to dance. At our local clubs we have tons of people who have had a few lessons who then try abnd show their friends how to do it. Not to disimilar from that one guy you described showing the flashy moves to his friends at Lindy Groove. "It takes a community to train a lindy hopper, only one bad apple to ruin the bunch." Damon Stone 2003 a.d.

The Magic Pill and its techniques work 100 % of the time if you follow the instructions precisely.

I already pointed out how the Pill invites teachers to make alterations or additions. Trying to teach someone how to teach through the written word is extremely difficult. YOu might want to think about setting up some sort of intensive like Skippy uses to pass on her methodology. It is easier to ensure that proper transmission of ideals happens face to face.

And I would add my own saying, "There are the creative originators and then there are those who can't create, so they criticize." Joe Lanza 2003 a.d.
Black Sheep, your friendly instructer.

Absolutely! You are completely correct sir. However there are those who can create, are originators, are fully capable of evaluating something, critiquing it without bias. I'd suggest you pick three people in L.A. give them the pill to read, and observe each trying to teach the material using that methodology as written down. Observe how many mistakes are made by the teachers and the students... mistakes that could be weened out of the methodology if you could step back and take an honest look at it.

New Member

Magic Pill Addicts,
Just follow my instructions in sequence. I am supplying you with progressive steps in the Magic Pill method to become fully qualified Savoy Lindy Hop Instructors with the authentic Savoy Techniques that the Master Lindy Hop dancers developed in the 1920's and 1930's, and who have never been equaled in performing this Original American Cultural Heritage.
The Magic Pill , Part I, II, and III are already on the board. I will continue supplying you with more advanced lessons in the near future. My purpose is not to throw too much information at you all at once; it might be confusing. Just read and absorb each Magic Pill Commentary as it is Posted under my Avatar, and by this fall you will be a bona fide Savoy Lindy Hop Instructor.
I was perceptive enough in 1963 when I left my 12 year professional Ballroom Dance Career to document all my teaching material in two manuscripts from which I copy and write my Commentaries with.
The proof is in the pudding, and I know from my experience in using this Magic Pill, Teaching Method for the past several months, teaching students two and three times a week, that you are successful in the application of this 'Simplified Swing' teaching method. I caution you to avoid the confusing criticisms by those who have never taken the 15 minutes to test this unique 'Lanza Six Count Lindy, teaching method.
Black Sheep, your friendly instructor.