B5 fleet numbers

Ok, I've heard people claim that the EA has thousands of ships. Now, in 'And now for a word' (season 2 ep), ISN states that the EA has 14 systems under it's control. So, if the claims of thousands of ships is correct, it would mean that each system would have up to a thousand ships in it. Unless they constantly have over half their fleet outside their systems, which still puts each system flooded with a few hundred ships.

This makes no sense since we never see any such amount of ships anywhere. If this were actually the case, Sheridan and his friends wouldn't have even be able to dent the EA forces.

Either the fleet numbers include fighters, support and repair ships, other small craft or it is simply wrong.

Next issue;

There also have been claims of thousands of ships in the assault fleet against the Narn Homeworld. Yet, when we hear Refa and Londo talk, Refa says;

"We have a dozen of our largest battleships waiting in hyperspace, ready to strike." - Refa

Now, unless I've landed in some sort of alternate dimension where math has become retarded, a dozen != thousands.

Any reasonable explaination without resorting to books and other secondary canon (and thus discarding evidence we see and hear onscreen)?

Well, we barely saw any support ships for the larger BBs. Unless all smaller ships moved to the other side of the planet, thus leaving 5-6 of the BBs we see unprotected, I find it hard to believe that the fleets was even in the hundreds. I can see up to a hundred ships, of which 12 BBs and the rest smaller ships (not counting fighters). But to go any higher, as frequently claimed, is simply unsupported by onscreen evidence.

As Sheridan going against Clark, you have a point. But even then, thousands of ships simply doesn't hold up if the EA only has 14 systems.

From watching B5, I get the idea that 6-12 capital ships + support/fighters is a decent sized fleet for strikes during war-time, for example:
- the narn attack which was ambushed by shadows.
- the defence forces of proxima 3

However, fleets can grow up to several dozens (~50) when its a very important battle, like:
- the centauri assault on the narn homeworld
- season 5, the narn/drazi assault on centauri prime
- EA's second attack against the minbari which was meant to decisively end the conflict (they sent 40 ships to a base defended by 12 sharlins.. hahahah)

However in peacetime, one capital ship is considered quite a presence. So we can see that Babylon 5 fleet sizes are pretty small... with fleets staying well under 100 ships (unless its some uber huge battle, like the conclusion of the shadow-war at Coriana 6)

Considering such small fleet sizes, one would assume fleet sizes of thousands of capital ships is wrong. But then we have another good argument:

With a loss of 70% of the original 60,000 [in the Minbari war], the Earth Alliance probably had a total of 18,000 ships. Of the 18,000 strong fleet of the Earth Alliance, at least half of these are support vessels for the fleet - cutting us down to 9,000 vessels. Of this figure, at least half are likely border patrol type vessels, corvettes etc. This gives us a fleet strength of some 4,500 large-scale capital vessels, ranging from small Light Cruisers to large scale Destroyers.

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All in all, at present, Earth likely has a fleet consisting of some 20,000 capital scale vessels. Of these, roughly 900 to 1,400 likely fall into the Omega classification. Those who doubt this figure, please note that in the TNT movie "A Call to Arms" some 212 Omega class Destroyers were blown out of the night and, while a seizable number, this loss was not significant enough to cripple the whole of the Earth fleet; we know from Gideon's arrival that many ships were still in rout to Earth during the battle.

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So basically yes they have ships in the thousands, but "ship" means anything that is not a fighter. So corvettes, support vessels, etc...

I was always under impression, that Earth has ~1000 warships (bigger then fighters) in this number also Omega/Nova/Warlock class. Why? Mostly because of A Call to Arms.

~200 destroyers were killed in tha battle against Drakh, but that was said by reporter in a novel.

We can see, that quite big part of EA fleet were not destroyers (Omega/Warlocks), but smaller ships like Hyperion and Olympus.

Even more: after Sheridan arrived, there was a fleet visible. I've counted 35 ships, probably Omegas and/or Novas. 35 destroyers after mobilization. And after time that allowed Drazi, Brakiri, Vree and Minbari to gather their fleets and sent them to Earth.

Sure, some ships were still arriving: some were at long range missions or in dock doing repairs etc. But the main fleet counted 35 destroyers and some light ships.

That will agree with numbers of EA ship on Mars orbit to stop Sheridan combined fleet, ships blocking Proxima or sent to retake B5.

Never more the 10 on small or more then 50 on big actions.

Count to it cargo and repair ships plus small gunboats etc and you will have ~300 - 500 ships in EA totally. Not 500-1500 Omegas, but the size of EA force in full size without fighters.

And it will be more the enough to control 14 systems. ~35 ships per system - just as many were protecting Earth against Sheridan.

Other races:
Centauri have 12 big battleships and probably ~50 smaller, plus support ships like Vorchans (2-5 per battleship) plus some cargo etc. That gives 100-300 warships plus support ship.

About Minbari, we dont know how much, but if I good remember 600 Sharlins on the Line + some protecting Minbari worlds.

In Into the Fire there was fleet from LONAW + WS + 2/3 of Minbari fleet (religious + worker cast).
It counted 10.000 ships from over 2 dozen races (from 25 to 35 races - more then 2 less then 3 dozens).
It means 280 to 400 ships per race. If those races have sent about 1/2 of their ships, it will mean, that each race has ~ 360 to 800 ships. Also fitting to EA numbers.

So - I dont see any reason for those thousand ships. Even one thousand will be much for a race with 14 systems (70 ships per system).

I'm not saying, that EA cannot build more - in wartime, when more ships are needed, yes, why not.
One is destroyed, you need two or three to replace it (inexperienced crews etc).
But in peace times? No, never thousands.

I was always under impression, that Earth has ~1000 warships (bigger then fighters) in this number also Omega/Nova/Warlock class. Why? Mostly because of A Call to Arms.

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Seems far more reasonable then the thousands that some people claim.

I'm not saying, that Ea cannot build more - in wartime, when more ships are needed, yes, why one - one is destroyed, you need two or three to replace it (nexperienced crews etc). but in peace times? No, never thousands.

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I can also agree with this. It is simply an impossible task to have such a large standing army during years of peace time.

The ITB novel states the Earth fleet at 50,000 capital ships, which would inc Novas, Hyperions and Olympus corvettes I am sure the ITB novel is considered cannon as said so by JMS which would mean EA DID have a massive fleet. Now that was just before the Minbari war where EF a lot of its ships but after rebuilding the 20,000 mark B5tech states is not far fetched.

The ITB novel states the Earth fleet at 50,000 capital ships, which would inc Novas, Hyperions and Olympus corvettes I am sure the ITB novel is considered cannon as said so by JMS which would mean EA DID have a massive fleet. Now that was just before the Minbari war where EF a lot of its ships but after rebuilding the 20,000 mark B5tech states is not far fetched.

The simple answer is that the scope changed durring production. Originally, B5 was about 3 miles. Originally, the scope involved only a very small part of the spiral arm. But in season three and onward, we have fleets in the thousands+, the Centauri being promised 1/5th of the Galaxy, the Whitestar searching the galaxy for the First Ones, etc. Newer canon overrides older canon. It was a budget issue.

Hmm, do you have any links to where I can see all those ships? Because if there are also smaller ships in the capital sized ships list, I can see hwere the thousands of ships are coming from. If that list is organized on size and strength and the Hyperion is pretty high up there, it is very reasonable to have thousands of ships actually.

I always had the impression that the ships used were Omegas, Novas, Hyperions and Olympus mainly. But if it is the case that there are also many more smaller ship classes, I can cxertainly see where you are coming from with that number.

Hmm, do you have any links to where I can see all those ships? Because if there are also smaller ships in the capital sized ships list, I can see hwere the thousands of ships are coming from. If that list is organized on size and strength and the Hyperion is pretty high up there, it is very reasonable to have thousands of ships actually.

I always had the impression that the ships used were Omegas, Novas, Hyperions and Olympus mainly. But if it is the case that there are also many more smaller ship classes, I can cxertainly see where you are coming from with that number.

Interesting

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Sorry, its all in print. If you want detail on any class in particular, ask. The Parenthesis represent known, published Class Variants (like the difference between the normal Omega-Alpha and the Gamma Command Destroyer, or the huge number of Hyperion variants).

The ITB novel states the Earth fleet at 50,000 capital ships, which would inc Novas, Hyperions and Olympus corvettes I am sure the ITB novel is considered cannon as said so by JMS which would mean EA DID have a massive fleet. Now that was just before the Minbari war where EF a lot of its ships but after rebuilding the 20,000 mark B5tech states is not far fetched.

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If the 20,000 is what they had then it would be safe to assume that 1000-5000 of those could have been Omega's. Given what it take to run a fleet you could say that 10,000 of those ships were support ships of various kinds and the renaming 5,000 to be Hyperions cruisers, Nova Dreadnaughts and Olympus corvettes.

And some of these ship have been around for 20 years (Olympus class). Its not inconceivable theat they had more at on point.

I'm particularly interested in the Hecate to Oracle class ships. But I guess thats a bit much. Could you give some rough numbers such as size and weaponry? I don't need detailed specs, just some rough info. If possible.

Question, how long after the Dilgar war did the Minbari war start? Was the EA still in war strength?

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The EA's generally always been in war strength. The Dilgar War started in February 15, 2228, with the invasion of Alaca IV. The EA intervened with the Earth Expeditionary Force under Admiral Hamato in early 2232, after the Dilgar invasion of Markab. At the end of that year, Earth had liberated the entirety of the League and rolled the Dilgar back to Omelos, where their sun went supernova in 2235.

Well, if one counts books and RPG to it, then there is no need to speculate I think.

But they are contradicting series and movies, so we must decide which one we use. I never (at least in my ff's) were using books (even if I knew this or that from them) and used movie numbers: ~500-1000 ships (warships + cargo support that can be used durring long battles) per race (exception are FO's).

But with books, we have 20.000 ships for EA, sure, why not. Not to logical or economic, but I 'm not creator or owner of B5

The simple answer is that the scope changed durring production. Originally, B5 was about 3 miles. Originally, the scope involved only a very small part of the spiral arm. But in season three and onward, we have fleets in the thousands+, the Centauri being promised 1/5th of the Galaxy, the Whitestar searching the galaxy for the First Ones, etc. Newer canon overrides older canon. It was a budget issue.

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That list seems not to be organized by strength but instead by size. The explorer is the largest ship in the EA fleet but they only have six of them. They were deemed too expensive to produce more of. Explorers also aren't warships. The Posseidon Supercarrier would be bigger than a Victory or Omega but it's lightly armed relative to it's size as it's a carrier, not a front line ship. So yeah, that list is apparently in order of largest to smallest.