Dom Post on Rugby World Cup bars

Changing the rules, however, proved much more tortured than it needed to be. The ACT MP David Seymour saw an opportunity to throw off the yoke of alcohol licensing laws, and introduced a bill to let pubs open for all cup games. Yet the Greens at first scuppered the effort, concerned, they said, about drunks spilling out of bars as parents dropped children off at school.

So Prime Minister John Key said he would consider urgent legislation, and levelled that the Greens were eternally “opposed to anything that’s sort of vaguely good fun”.

It’s true that the political rituals of this are wearying – the male politicians bragging about how much they enjoy beer, the charge that all those concerned about alcohol harm are wowsers.

Yet the Greens’ complaints were too precious by half. This wasn’t the issue on which to make a heroic stand about the perils of drink. Relatively few people will race to a pub to see the All Blacks stomp on Namibia at 7am on a Friday – and only a handful will drink too much as they do so.

Judging by past Football World Cup games screened at dawn in Courtenay Place, more fans are likely to eat a pub breakfast on their way to work. In any case, several All Blacks games start at 8am, when pubs can be open anyway.

The Greens pointed out that pubs can already apply for special licences to show cup games. But those require outlets to jump through silly hoops, like imposing a fancy-dress requirement or holding a quiz. No-one needs such frippery at 4am.

By yesterday afternoon, the Greens seemed to have realised this – they withdrew their opposition to Seymour’s bill, apparently after assurances that it would be tweaked.

The bill was always open to amendment at select committee. Nothing has changed there.

The real story is that on Tuesday night, after they refused leave for the bill to be introduced, was the annual function of Saunders Unsworth. This is one of those events where half of Parliament attends, along with scores of business and community leaders, plus media.

It is a great networking event. You have around 50+ conversations with different people, normally on very different topics.

I understand from multiple sources that James Shaw and Julie-Anne Genter had dozens of conversations with people there. But there was only one topic. Why the hell did you stop the bill to allow bars to be open for the rugby. As the night wore on, I think they realised how badly they had stuffed up. This was summed up by this tweet from their supporter, Danyl:

The opposition to the bill was obviously led by Kevin Hague who denounced the idea of bars being open as appalling – drunken revellers spilling out of pubs as schools open. I wonder if the new co-leader effectively pulled rank and just told his caucus that they need to back down on this, or be tainted with it for years to come?

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Comments (41)

AgentBallSack

This will probably earn me a shit ton of downticks but now that Seymour is pushing for the bars to open during ALL games not just the AB’s, how is this reducing alcohol related harm in our communities? And if you’re going to down tick me give a bloody reason. BTW I enjoy alcohol as much as the next person, probably more so. This (policy) is now open to abuse.

The Greens…. wowsers with political antennae that are tune to god knows what. How anyone with any political acumen could thing opposing bars opening to serve brekkie to office workers heading to work wanting to watch the AB’s is beyond me.

Can you imagine Rod making such a poorly thought out political decision? The biggest set back in Greens party history when that bloke died too young.

Idiots – same number of letters as Greens with the same definition in the political dictionary

deadrightkev

John Key jumps to attention for urgency on opening bars and leaves the NZ economy languishing in the doldrums with no reform for seven years. That is his legacy, that and a failed flag campaign no one wants.

Too late for the Greens. Their first reaction told us what they really think. The u-turn means they only just noticed they are completely out of touch.

To me the whole issue is bullshit. Just the idea of politicians sitting in Parliament solemnly discussing whether we should be allowed to have a drink and watch the rugby sums up what is wrong with NZ.

speters

tom hunter

I’m sure that for most of the Green MP’s and activists this was a knee-jerk reaction: the suddenly uplifted nose and sniff, Are those drunken, brawling oafs wanting more of the same? To hell with them I say”. Why pander to the low-IQ morons who gaze at huge TV screens for hours on end watching grown men playing some silly little kids game, all the while getting tanked up on beer (beer for heaven’s sake), before going home to assault the missus and the kids.

It was a killer because it was so revealing of what the Greens are like and how they would govern in concert with the Labour party. Despite all the efforts to piggyback off their 60’s hippie legacy – “cool bro, whatever floats your boat. Here, try some White Lady” – they really are very red on the inside in wanting to control people: for their own good of course.

But it’s more than that. Every left wing party has the desire, in its beating heart, to move society “forward”. It’s why the term “Progressive” was so popular in the US before Woodrow Wilson soiled it and pushed people to being “Liberal”. Yet moving beyond the status quo means eventually destroying it, hopefully by allowing it to die off – but if that fails, then crushing it out of existence: “Year Zero” was not just unique to the Cambodian situation.

And one part of the cultural status quo in NZ is the enduring popularity of rugby and beer, far less so than in decades past, but still something a lot of Greens despise. Danyl is a classic example of the type: on his blog he’s occasionally made sneering references about the Sevens Tournament in Wellington (“I’m outta here!”, so although he’s more politically astute than the people he supports, the core attitude would be the same.

doggone7

AgentBallSack @ 9:04 am

You have attempted to introduce some rationality into the debate.

If Seymour is serious and follow his philosophy of freedom and lack of restrictions on people, he will take the necessary practicable steps to get rid of all restrictive rules on the opening times of bars. If it’s okay for them to be open on the fancy hours of October 17th, 24th and 31st it’s surely fine for the same hours to be fine on November 15th and 29th or January the 23rd.

alex Masterley

Scott

Allowing the pubs to be open during World Cup games seems fine. It is for a limited time, it is a once every 4 years thing so where is the harm?
Unfortunately the Greens probably don’t like rugby and probably don’t like beer either. I think Morris dancing is their thing? And judging by some of their former MP’s probably smoking certain substances rather than drinking.

Fentex

Relatively few people will race to a pub to see the All Blacks stomp on Namibia at 7am on a Friday – and only a handful will drink too much as they do so.

This bugs me.

The Greens seemed to have reacted with a knee jerk. I read their response because I wondered if they had said something sensible but were being denigrated as wowsers – I thought it possible they had said something along the lines of “We already have rules about this stuff – why is a privilege being extended rather than rules followed?” and were then jumped on for being killjoys when it would be a valid point.

But that’s not what they lead with (although they did basically say it later) they did lead with drunks on the streets in the morning. So they walked right into being called killjoys.

But.

How many people berating them, in particular people who might write something like I quoted ( only a handful will drink too much ) would also get up in arms about being harsh on drunk drivers and other rules breakers after someone runs down a kid?

I think there’s a really good chance the sort of indignant person who rushes to berate the idea who can use such language as “only a handful will drink too much” may also be the kind of person who would rush to condemn a drunk driver who prangs a morning commuter with kids going to school and demand something be done about it.

I think we ought run a regulatory system that doesn’t need these exceptions, we ought aim to always be preventing irresponsible actions whether morning, evening, world cup year or not and that’s best done by holding people to account for their actions and actively policing such things while leaving people free to be responsible however they please.

I also think it’s a bit precious to get all indignant about people sticking to the current rules when you don’t care about the possible harm when “only a handful will drink too much”, because it smells of an opportunity for hypocrisy to me.

Scott

doggone 7– no the point is this is not to address the wider point of bar opening hours. It is a one-off thing for the purposes of the World Cup. It should not be broadened to allow open slather on pubs opening at all hours.
Indeed based on police reports they are agitating for tighter controls on opening hours because they are the ones that have to deal with drunken louts and bad behaviour as people spill out of the pubs at 5 o’clock in the morning.

Mike….why the hell should you even need a special license to open a sports bar between 4am and 8am, and serve a beer?

Because some idiot under 25’s preload at home and get themselves in trouble on Courtney Place on Thursday, Friday and Saturday nights.

Talk about a sledge hammer impacting everyone to solve a simple issue. The corrected response is to make it an offence to be drunk in a public place again. Then the police can take people off the street when they are out of it.

Yes you can get special licenses and I see my favourite Sports Bar the Four Kings has already done this. But why should it be at NZ Polices discretion? Why should bar owners have to jump through an arbitrary process to be able to serve reasonable people who enjoy watching sports at all hours in the company of like minded people? Wowsers and control freaks of the world unite seems the only valid reason.

Personally the restrictive licensing for areas like Courtney Place are a nonsense. Why the hell shouldn’t I be able to sit down at Hummingbird and have a quiet glass of Pinot and watch the sun come up? Why can’t I watch a premier league game kicking off at 3 am in say the Four Kings in the company of fellow supporters?

mikenmild

Dave
It is not very long ago that Parliament debated the licensing laws. Like it or not, we have a system in place to reduce alcohol related harm. Part of that is regulating opening hours.
This question has been running for a few days across several Kiwiblog threads. No one has yet been able to explain why the rules in place for last year’s FIFA world cup, or for previous RWCs in Europe, are suddenly now inadequate.

Simon

george_nz1

Each District Licensing Authority’s remit includes adjusting alcohol rules within their region. So surely this just another case of local government (territorial authorities appoint the District Licensing Authorities) not effectively managing their responsibilities in line with ratepayer wishes?

There are a number of creative ways this problem could be solved:
– As the volume and severity of alcohol related harm is linked to opening hours, if bars are to be open later during the world cup they could be forced to shut earlier before and after the World Cup period.
– As local government has failed to deliver an effective regulatory approach, they should fund the Police overtime. Take the amount out of the licensing authority budget as they’re not doing their job. And Parliament should bill all the territorial authorities for the time and resources spent passing special legislation instead of Councils making useful decisions.
– Police should announce a ‘reduced-tolerance’ to alcohol issues over the World Cup period and increase enforcement and punishment levels for drunken violence, drink driving etc.
– Double the fines for breaching license conditions over the period for Bar Managers in return for extended hours on their license.

(The way the ABs are playing at the moment this whole issue may end up being a moot point)

doggone7

Scott @ 9:39 am “It is a one-off thing for the purposes of the World Cup. It should not be broadened to allow open slather on pubs opening at all hours.”

Why? If there are drunken louts and bad behaviour as people spill out of the pubs at 5 o’clock in the morning don’t let them open.
Or are drunken louts and bad behaviour as people spill out of the pubs at 5 o’clock in the morning okay because it’s the Rugby World Cup. Or because it’s the Rugby World Cup there are not going to be drunken louts and bad behaviour as people spill out of the pubs at 5 o’clock in the morning?

I’m saying there are massive inconsistencies. And if that’s just an academic brain-fart consider that the vast majority of those who’ve got their knickers in a twist or been hysterical this week over the issue will be nowhere near bars for those games. It’s about their political knickers being in a twist – more academic brain farts.

Scott

doggone 7 – that really is life, there are inconsistencies sure. But the idea is that the rules will be relaxed for the specific purposes of the World Cup so people can watch it with their mates. That’s fair enough surely?

Now if it is shown that it causes heaps of trouble and we have massive fights after World Cup games between New Zealand and Australia for example spilling out from the pubs onto the streets then we will probably revisit the issue prior to the next World Cup.

Mike… my very point is that these laws on restrictions don’t target the actual issues – which are people drinking to excess. Bar Owners and Managers have ALWAYS faced tough sanctions for allowing people to get drunk as a skunk in their premises. Restricting professionally run bars to xyz hours DOESN’T stop people getting trashed.

Attack the problem properly:

– education on the harm of over consumption.
– offence to be drunk in a public place and enforce it
– police bars strictly around selling to intoxicated individuals
– target the problem population cohort as they arrive at party districts like Courtney Place, Cuba Street Precinct, the Viaduct, Ponsonby Road, where ever the party district has resurfaced in CHC etc. Weed out the obviously pissed individuals who have preloaded before they enter the bars and clubs
– Restrict late opening to the known party zones to make it easier to police

So there is a reasonably coherent strategy that allows sensible old farts like me to stay out till 6am if I want and allows me to roll into a sports bar at 3am/6am to watch the Mighty Mersey Redmen in the company of fellow Liverpool FC tragics while having a beer and a yarn WITHOUT bars having to apply for arbitrarily granted/denied special licenses

Blanket BS restrictions as imposed by the wowser brigade 3 years ago are an affront to personal responsibility and unnecessary

KevinH

During the last World Cup in Auckland both the Police and the hospitality industry co ordinated their activities to reduce or eliminate alcohol related behaviour in the central city. A policy of zero tolerance was adopted towards inebriated patrons. If a person displayed bad behaviour or drunkenness they were not permitted entry to bars and the Police were notified, equally if a person became intoxicated on licensed premises they were escorted out by security staff and sent home via taxi or bus.
Police were excellent in controlling the crowds and bar staff played their part to good effect. No doubt the same rules and conditions will be enforced with alcohol bans in public area’s and drunks dealt with quickly.

Nostalgia-NZ

Michael

I just can’t understand why anyone would want to watch a game of rugby on TV at a pub at some ungodly hour but apparently their are people out there who are keen to do that so I guess they may as well be allowed to.

mikenmild

My research tells me that bars have had no problems in obtaining special licenses in the past. This is a made-up, non-existent problem because David Seymour was too lazy to research this issue himself.

BTW, did you know that many of last year’s world cup games were on at the same time as this year’s RWC games?

ross411

You continually keep asking how things happened in the past. Why is it so hard for you to do your own fucking research?

He doesn’t even read the top post before picking holes in things which have pretty good explanations..

The Greens pointed out that pubs can already apply for special licences to show cup games. But those require outlets to jump through silly hoops, like imposing a fancy-dress requirement or holding a quiz. No-one needs such frippery at 4am.

It’s a loophole currently that requires nonsense, in order to achieve something similar, but made tiresome.

Cue another moan from him without any reasoning behind it, repeating the same generic already tired arguments that have been dismissed.

Honeybadger

All politics aside, I would have preferred for the games to have been on free to air television (on time), so those who don’t want to sit in a bar with rowdy others could enjoy the games in the comfort of their own homes

mikenmild

Bullshit Ross. Show me the complaints from bar owners about the onerous provisions last time round. Show me the submissions to Parliament the last time the licensing laws were changed. Show me the submissions to local authorities asking for this to be part of their alcohol policies.

mikenmild

Yogibear

Two observations:

Seymor’s law change was necessary, not because of the quiz/fancy dress provision. It was necessary because the new alcohol laws provide for a far greater degree of activism in opposing the granting of licences. Regional Medical Officers of Health are having a field day opposing special licences all over the place, often upsetting events that have operated successfully and without incident for years

The provisions virtually destroyed the Auckland Beer Festival last year and I dread the damage it will do to Beervana and Wellington’s craft beer credentials this year.

Secondly i honestly thought the Dom had mixed up stock photos of David and Arnold Rimmer this morning. Good to see David has been working on his Brittas Empire poses

mikenmild

Richard

”….fans are likely to eat a pub breakfast on their way to work”

Ah, what an optimistic person who wrote that. They either won’t make it to work (their in a bar for god’s sake, of course their going to drink) or if they do they’ll be too half pissed to get any work done and a menace to the company. Come the RWC I think I’ll be dealing with a lot of sickie phone calls…

Biscuit

Scott, 11.33am…

No, I don’t mean to do away with the religious holidays (freedom of worship and all that) but given that, what, only a quarter of us profess to be Christian these days why don’t we allow the other three-quarters of the population to treat the day as we like – eg a family day for me on December 25 and shopping on the long daftly-configured long weekend in March/April…

David from Chch

DPF: You said “I wonder if the new co-leader effectively pulled rank and just told his caucus that they need to back down on this, or be tainted with it for years to come?”.

I say “Too late!” As others have noted above, everyone will remember the Greens refusal to support a sensible step, and then their back down when they realised just how silly they were being, and how unpopular the move was.

doggone7

Scott @ 10:18 am

Thanks. I have been called a rugby nut. I am not a Green nut. The hysteria is around the issue is about political points scoring not about common sense. When politicians have a moral high ground based on clear philosophy yet demonstrate such variability in applying it maybe there is scope for political points scoring. Hence my reference to David Seymour.

Left Right and Centre

Keep the quiz requirement – that’s a great idea.

Quiz questions, RWC 2015 . . .

When’s the last time NZ played a WRC final above the equator ?
Who refereed the NZ vs France 2007 quarter-final match ?
What was the name of the strategy used in 2007 to prepare the NZ squad for the WRC ?