14 Comments, 14 Threads

Europe will become Islamic with or without Turkey. The question is will Europe begin to integrate Muslims and develop a new culture that is a synthesis of both, or will Europe continue to try to keep Muslims seperate from their society and eventually be ‘conquered’ by them.

I think bringing Turkey into the E.U. will help to accomplish the first possibility.

I agree with the concept behind the article, it is something that any rational thinking person, not blinded by ideology and up to date on current events, should be able deduce on their own. I saw this coming back in the late ’70′s when I was in the Army over there in Germany — the Turkish/Islamist thing was already starting to happen back then.

I do think that Tibi’s conclusions in the last paragraph are the correct ones to draw. But I’ll add one thing to that: That is unless we and our allies, perhaps along with China, India and/or Russia, intervene so as to change that path.

I do think that Tibi is right in that Europe is unable to stand against it. At least not now, not with their current aversion to resisting it. Could they turn things around? Sure, but the correct question is actually: Will they turn things around? I seriously doubt it. I see them as being the proverbial Frog in the Pot on the Stove. They’ll sit still and patiently wait while they get cooked, doing nothing about it. Until they are Dead, Dead, Dead. Culturally, that is.

Politically: They’re backward (what EU country has the army to provide the “escape clause” if the country sinks into theocracy?)
Economically: They’re backward (per capita GDP=$7300, less than Mexico)
Socially: Backward: Radical Islamists and Kurds, oh my! Polygamy, cousin marriage in the hinterlands (which are 90% of the country) etc etc.

Europe doesn’t need Turkey. Curiously, neither does Turkey need the EU. They don’t need the straitjacket of EU regulations to stifle the economic growth they need to move up. What they need is a NAFTA type of arrangement. (which is what the EU should be in the first place).

One other point that seems to elude so many is: Where do we draw the line between Europe and Asia? Historically, in that region it has always been at the Bosphorus Straits. Meaning, Turkey is on the other side. Or, at least, the vast majority of it is. So, why are they even being considered? They aren’t even European.

And if they (the Turks, that is), are trying to make the case of being a “Civilized Western Nation”, why aren’t they more involved in trying to spread that Civilization to the rest of the “Greater Islamic World”, as they at least have the advantage of being Islamic themselves? Instead of trying to piggyback on the relative freedom and prosperity of Europe (note: RELATIVE freedom and prosperity), shouldn’t they be trying to encourage it with their neighbors, and then form a “Free & Prosperous” Islamic Union in Asia & Africa? It makes more sense to me, anyway.

Turkey is “Politically backward”, and the rest of the EU isn’t? France, where one reason why Chirac is remaining President is because when he steps down he will no longer be granted immunity from bribery charges? Denmark, where a rising politician who spoke for the people, not the elite, got assassinated, adn the political establishment just sort of shrugged?

Politically: They’re backward (what EU country has the army to provide the “escape clause” if the country sinks into theocracy?)
Economically: They’re backward (per capita GDP=$7300, less than Mexico)
Socially: Backward: Radical Islamists and Kurds, oh my! Polygamy, cousin marriage in the hinterlands (which are 90% of the country) etc etc.

All of these are correct, but only if you’re comparing them to the rest of the developed world. Compared to the rest of the region, and a number of the countries that just recently joined the EU or will join in 2007, the comparison doesn’t look nearly so bad. And if you look at the trends, they’re all going in the right direction. See my post here for more details.

Turkey joining the EU helps both Turkey and the EU. The EU gains the young workers its going to need to fund it’s pension system and Turkey gets a free trade/movement area.

If the EU countries were willing to actively socialize/culturalize (talking melting pot, multiculturism is a sure loser)the Turks, they have a chance of extending, if not enhancing, the EU ‘civilization’. If they continue to segregate their Muslim populations, they’re doomed to catastrophic failure.

Can you imagine Turkey as an EU member, with business as usual? Open borders with no hope to stop terrorists crossing freely at will. An ocean of immigrants flooding into the EU with Turkey as a layover, looking to improve their lives. As the EU welfare states are overwhelmed, discontent will rise. What happens then?

Well, so Europe feels like it’s too late to save the individual cultures of each country? I’ve noticed in the U.S. that most of our college campuses and Universities have become islamisized too. The Arab American population isn’t supporting Bush this time because he liberated 50 million muslims from the grip of two dispicable and horrific regimes. I guess we were just supposed to leave them alone? Mind our own business? Huh? Most of those 50 million people are thankful for our help, so I’m feelin’ pretty good about it myself, but I’m getting suspicious about our Arab American populations motives for why they don’t think we have the right to do what we’ve done. I know I have no interests in converting to islam, and I’m very sure I’d cause a big scene if anyone tried to force me to do so. My thought is if Islam wants to co-exist with all the other religions under un-Islamic laws then no problem. But using the ACLU and the election ballots in order to remove god from the pledge of alegiance, ban teachers from wearing a cross necklace, bracelet, or earrings. And most recently, reversing a pratice of allowing a monument of the ten commandments to be displayed on the grounds outside of our local and federal courthouses, and to which our rule of laws is based upon.

If Turkey isn’t geographically in Europe (well, the vast majority of it isn’t anyway) and yet is being considered for inclusion into the EU, what argument is there for other countries to likewise petition? Apparently, geography isn’t that big of a concern.

I mean, Canada is a much closer ideological and cultural fit for the EU than Turkey, and is no more a part of Europe than Turkey is (again, for the most part). So, why not them?