Here is a great copy strategy. I think of my P as "the toad" or "the creepy little man/" This helps to keep things in perspective and keeps me from allowing the glamor to cover my eyes again.

Another is to mentally and emotionally put a best friend in your place. How would your feelings change if you saw this happening to someone you loved? What advice would you give her? Then follow through. This is actually a very good technique to keep you out of "his" space and into your own.

I spent quite a while putting together a list of suggestions last weekend and then promptly sent it into the wild, blue yonder (duh!). So anyhow, thought I’d redo it in Word this time.

These are some of the activities I found helpful and some that other posters suggested. I've written many before so they may be familar to "older" posters. Just rehashing in this thread. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be one major panacea for the trauma of having had a relationship (romantic/corporate/ personal) with a P. The hope is that these activities have an incremental, positive effect, whether for moments or for days... The underlying message is that despite the devastation Ps wreak, it's important to believe in your capacity to turn things around.

- Thought stopping - this was one of the best suggestions I read in this forum because, as many of us have probably experienced, obsessive thoughts about these situations are common – they can be incredibly draining and counterproductive. Look up “thought stopping” on the internet (Google, Mamma.com, etc.) and try to practice these techniques.

- Listening to music/reading/movies – This ties into the above point since both of them are great diversionary activities. I love music and usually found it uplifting – it felt like an antidote of sorts, to the toxic energy Ps seem to generate. Reading too is an amazing gift and has the ability to transport us anyplace. I found reading biographies particularly helpful – some serve to remind us that many people have had deep, personal struggles and not only did they prevail over these, they eventually thrived.

- Attitude On days when it seemed like nothing would work to lift my mood, I would decide to stop fighting it and relent, just try and ride it out (sleep, be a couch potato, whatever) but with the belief that the next day would be better. So much of the fight in situations like this is mental. Also, my GP recommended B-complex (seems to stabilize moods) and magnesium (calming effect). Seemed to help. Even though they’re over-the-counter, suggest checking with your own doctors before taking anything.

- Counselling/therapy – Good outlet – just the opportunity to be able to talk things out and not internalize everything. If there are financial constraints, faith-based counselling may be a viable alternative. Some domestic violence organizations have counsellors on staff. For those who feel they are slipping into a clinical depression, it is just absolutely paramount to seek professional help before it gets worse.

- Exercise – for the stress relief and confidence boost. Maybe join a running club or something.

- Connect with friends/family – Relationships can be affirming – they give us a frame of reference and remind us of who we are and what is important to us. Even if you think your friends may not understand what it’s like to be in a relationship with a P, perhaps just letting them know you are going to a rough time may be sufficient to elicit their support. One of the reasons Ps try to isolate their targets is so that they lose their sense of identity and the P can then re-mould them into someone they can control and subjugate.

The converse of this is that it may be wise to distance yourself (perhaps temporarily) from people who you feel are negative and drag you down. It’s a personal decision but one that I eventually made.

- Letters, videotapes I’m pretty sentimental so I tend to hang onto letters, yearbooks etc. I found reading them was incredibly uplifting because it reminded me I was once strong, capable and loved by NORMAL, well-adjusted people. At a minimum, dealing with Ps is a major drag and the quickest route to a joyless existence, so reading about fun and happy times can help you hope again. Same goal as the point above, to re-establish your identity and gain strength.

I’ve got a few more that I’ll add as soon as I get a chance. Would be great if others can add their suggestions. Even if some are repetitive, at least it would show how many people those particular activities helped.

Actually, conntecting with family/friends reminds me that I want to go out with a friend and do some shopping, then we could eat at an Italian café. And right NOW I want to go and watch my mom playing video games - she usually needs some help too. :-D

First - sylvie, thanks a million for starting this list. Reading it and adding to it is in itself a 'coping' strategy, because it means doing something positive to help ourselves.

Next - a coping strategy i have found extremely useful:

Do something that makes you feel valued, whatever that may be.

For me it has been work. I am a writer. After my disastrous encounter, I had thought i would never be able to write again, that iw ould have neither the will nor the ability. Fortunately for me, my editor decided to take matters into her own hands and loaded deadline after deadline on to me. I forced myself to meet those deadlines. And now, a year later, i have two new books in print, ten picture books for children in the pipeline, and the first draft of my next book done. I cannot explain how good that makes me feel. Despite all that happened, despite my immense loss of confidence and self esteem, despite all the chaos and destruction in my life, I could get back on my feet and write these books. So, do something that makes you feel good, makes you feel in control of yourself, that tells you, 'hey, I'm not finished'.

And yes - on those days when it gets really bad, go easy on yourselves. We've been to hell and back. It isn't easy to be brave and positive ALL the time. So, when it's really really awful, curl up with a bar of chocolate and your favourite blanket and weep your eyes out if u need to. It helps immensely.

One more thought: all my life i have believed that there is always some good in what happens to us. That good is often hard to see or understand, but somehow, somewhere it surfaces. A year ago i thought my life had ended. But now, i see how much i have gained because of what happened: my marriage has come together again, my friendships have been confirmed and reaffirmed,and i have learnt so much about life and about love. Yes - about love. I have learnt what it is to truly love, to give, to receive, from all those who have held me thru this very long night. I have learnt how much i can love. I've learnt about betrayal and about pain too - and because of that, i find i am a kinder, more understanding person. Long ago, i had broken someone's heart. I found the courage to go back to him, to talk to him and write to him. We're friends again - stronger than before. I am richer for all of this. And the man who set out to destroy me? Do u know where he is? He has lost his job, his son is having major behavioural problems, and his behaviour has been such that slowly people are seeing him for what he is and distancing themselves from him one by one. So don't give up. Believe in yourself and in natural justice. It exists.

Sylvie - thank you. I am still so shaken by him, after all this time. I feel physically sick at the thought of accidentally coming into contact with him. It is an effort to meet common friends. So - to hear your appreciation means a lot - gives me added strength to carry on. I still weep at night - sometimes for him, sometimes for myself. If i did have to give my soul away to someone, why was it him? mindy.

Anytime. It is difficult to come to terms with the fact that we got so involved with such soul-less characters but it does happen eventually and it is incredibly liberating. I know it's especially difficult if you have mutual friends - I too was in a similar situation, we had common acquaintances. Once I distanced myself, it got much easier. It's a very personal decision though and not always easy to carry out. Hang in there, time really is a great healer.

Just wanted to mention this book that many seem to recommend. It's called "Blink" by Malcolm Gladwell. It doesn't have anything to do with Ps directly but I thought it might be helpful because it apparently talks about first impressions etc. Here's a quote from the Amazon.com review, "the key is to rely on our "adaptive unconscious"--a 24/7 mental valet--that provides us with instant and sophisticated information to warn of danger, read a stranger, or react to a new idea."

I haven't read it yet but it's on my list. At the very least, it sounds like an interesting read.

You know I've been thinking about this today, and trying to sort out what it was about this character that seemed to totally short out that body awareness for me or at least gave me something that made me want to doubt my instincts. And what I realized was this. The one thing about him that was so very appealing to me was the fact that he was always so calm, and never ever seemed to get too upset about anything. I remember telling him he was like my shelter in the storms.

Course he WAS the storms as well, and he always seemed the happiest when I was broken down and weeping from his sadistic emotional mind games. But his "steadyness" was always so calming to me.

So I went out and found an article today about psycopaths and states of arousal and how their arousal threshold is very much higher than normal controls. That means that when they get excited their heartbeat slows down much faster than normal people and they are not as easily aroused, their startle reflex is about non existent, and they just don't get all that excited in situations that would excite normal people. Drama that would normally have everyone in a high state of agitation just doesn't phase them, for example.

And for someone like me who spent the majority of my life in a hypervigilant state because of chronic ptsd from my foo, that was a major positive change for me and made me actually feel SAFE. Of course when you are talking about P's who are also psychopathic killers, this is why they so easily lure victims. On the other hand, weren't we all lured victims?

How do you protect against that? I dunno, but it is something I am becoming very aware of.

he was so CALM...seemed to take life 'all in stride'...and i liked that about him...little did i know it was because he didnt care about anything...so why get flustered...

and then later...the only time he did show emotion...it was when he was being questions...or his little make believe world was being threatened...

as for how u protect urself against it...

i think knowledge...for starters...the more u know...the more u can spot it and stay away....

but for me i'm also just listening to my instinct a lot more...bc I KNOW there were many times my gut told me that this man and this relationship wasnt right...and ignored it because i LISTENED to HIM...INSTEAD of what my instincts were trying to tell me..>BIG MISTAKE...cost me dearly...

I can relate to that so much (the calm demeaner)... Though, "mine" was not able to keep his "mask" on very long and he DID get irate at times (over things he had no "control" over, ie: his "roomate" (lady he "suckered into" living with free room and board!) was selling her condo and moving to a smaller, more affordable one - (he obviously has followed her, since (as far as I know) he hasn't found a "new model" ... YET!) But he had a FIT because he'd have to have a smaller room and move farther away from the "city" where more targets can be found! LOL. Tough luck, eh? (Beggars can't be chosers?!)

But, yes, he was (when things went HIS way, which was often) very cool, calm and collected (the fact that he was high on pot most of the time might have explained some of that too!) ;-)

Creeps!

Toads, yes... and WE saw them as PRINCES... but, thank God... the SPELL has been BROKEN!!! LOL!

<3 Tiasa

_________________________
If you lend someone $100 and never see that person again, it was worth it!

My ex was obviously "bothered" by a lot of things. He was envious of everyone and never had anything nice to say about anyone UNLESS he was face to face with them. Any signs he wasn't in control of the people in his life and he would become irate. But face to face with me (and I saw it everytime with others) he was CALM. It was part of his charm.

All this was before he became very comfortable with me. He was abusive and used a kind of psuedo anger with me to control me. But the only times I saw him lose his cool completely were those time he scared the bejeezus out of me when I would turn around and catch him staring at me with those flipping dialated eyes (totally dialated) and bulging veins.... or when I had just done something that demonstrated I wasn't under his control (like having an opinion that differed from his, or stood up for someone he was badmouthing, etc.), and once when someone stole his car from his driveway.

Most of the time I let him believe he was in control, even though it seemed to me that he wasn't much in control of his own life and himmself, and that seemed to keep him pretty stable with me.

This ex girlfriend of his that I've become friends with tells a much different story. She is much more independent than I am and with her he was much the way as more out of control P's on here are described. He fought with her often and tried to overpower her physically. He drugged her at one time, removed her clothing and had sex with her while she was unconscious. He broke down a door once that she tried to put betweeen them. So, he was much more physical with her than with me.

All of these stories are really crazy, the reason they sound so crazy. I had to deal with the same issues as you Dianne, your situation sounds indentical to mine. A girlfriend of a good friend of mine, she told my buddy, my ex was fake. A few of my other close friends could see how fake my ex was when it came to my ex being genuine and caring. My ex claimed to have tons of freinds too. No one really liked her other than those who had to like her. Co-workers, family and so on.

"He was envious of everyone and never had anything nice to say about anyone UNLESS he was face to face with them. Any signs he wasn't in control of the people in his life and he would become irate. But face to face with me (and I saw it everytime with others) he was CALM. It was part of his charm."

"or when I had just done something that demonstrated I wasn't under his control (like having an opinion that differed from his, or stood up for someone he was badmouthing, etc.)"

My ex wife was the same way with the quotes above. When she lost control (screaming and yelling) she considered that to be in control.
It seemed my ex would also freak out if something went wrong. e.g....If the dinner I picked up for us (take out) was wrong, French fries on her platter vs mash potatoes. Her reaction would be out of control blaming me for messing up her order and never letting up through out our dinner and night. She would be so upset with me that she would usually go to bed early saying she wasn't in the mood for my company. But her going to bed early was usually a norm for us. She would complain that we never do anything together. When I would make an attempt she would shut me out and once again head for bed. I was always in a no win situation.

My ex told me in the beginning of our relationship. that her previous boyfriend would lock her in the basement or lock her out of the house in the cold. She also told me her ex used to put her down in front of her friends and family. She told me her ex was a very mean person. I wonder now if she was describing what she did to him?

She told me early on in our relationship they always fought. During our arguments I would point out that maybe she has issues because it seems we are starting where they left off with her ex (always arguing/fighting) She would than claim they had a great relationship and they never fought like we do. Anyway, I share your pain Dianne, I really do.

Help, I'm having trouble coping. Three months of no contact, I’ve been ok, even happy for the past couple of weeks, keeping myself busy, going to the gym, meeting lots of new people, and then last night, out of nowhere, this wave just hit me – I was out with friends and just started crying -- I couldn’t stop thinking about my P and how maybe I didn’t try hard enough or didn’t give him enough. My logic isn’t strong enough to overcome these feelings. I miss him, it hurts, and I KNOW, I know I’m better now and I’m not being controlled or lied to or half-living, but I just don’t understand why…
-maria

Don't beat up on yourself for how you feel. Just let the tears flow, they are cleansing. Give your emotions time, they will catch up with the logical part of you. I have watched this happen within myself.

P's are successful at manipulating us because of the unique way that they 'hook' into our emotions. These emotional hooks are so strong that they disconnect our emotions from our intellect. With the logical part of our mind disabled like this, it is almost impossible to see the red flags that would otherwise be obvious. DIVIDE AND CONQUER is a P's approach.

Part of the healing process is the re-uniting of emotion and intellect, and because of the hooks, emotion will always be more than a few steps behind. Suddenly you are hit with an emotional tidal wave and you feel like you are losing ground, but just the opposite is true. Your intellect has progressed far enough to pull emotions up to speed ~~ but the emotions need to cleanse out the old hook debris in order to move on. (Think of intellect and emotion connected with a bungy cord, if that helps.) Thusly you find yourself in the midst of an emotional wave. It is good, it is OK, and it signals that all is going well in the healing process. You have understood enough intellectually to undo enough emotional hooks so your emotions can do some catch-up. Congratulate yourself and keep going. It is all good.

Also, since positive undoes negative, it is not surprising at all that this 'pain' wave hit you while you were out having a good time with friends. Your logic is MORE than stong enough, it is undoing those painful hooks that your P worked in so carefully while you were with him. Hurray for you!

Thanks for all those coping suggestions - they are really helpful! When I'm needing a boost, I go back and read them.

Do you guys have any advice on how to give closure to our relationships with P? He disappeared from my life, I've seen him on the street a couple of times since then(the first I tried to say hi and he walked away without acknowledging my presence and the second I just ignored him). I don't expect him to have the decency to offer closure, so I have to put my own ending to this story. And i think I have begun to and every day is a step towards that and away from him. But I do find myself thinking that if I were to see him again, I'd try to talk to him, if only for that sense of closure.

You will never get from a P the kind of closure that normal people need from a relationship that has ended. My suggestion would be to have no contact at all. Any type of communication with the P just gives him more opportunity to hurt and manipulate you. P's don't care about anyone's feelings. It's all about them and what they want. All that is on a P's agenda is how to hurt, manipulate, deceive, and cheat others. Hang in there and be strong!

Closure came for me when I could get up every morning and feel blessed that it was another pain-free, betrayal-free, P-free day. Gratitude is the key for me to setting the frames right for my life TODAY.

Also, I came to realize that accepting that daily rejection, daily betrayal, and daily pain when the P was part of my life was MY choice and under MY control. I love exercising that control and saying no to the P and the pain that is the only thing they have to offer anyone in this world.

I would recommend do not speak to him, talk to him, or look to him for anything, not even the common politeness we show perfect strangers.

Closure will have to come from you, from within you. I struggled with that for a long, long time. In the beginning i too would look to him, would hope that he would at least tell me why. But no. Looking to him just meant more hurt, more humiliation, more erosion of my self esteem. It is only when i stopped turning to him for answers and began seeking them elsewhere that i found any sort of closure. This forum helped a lot, because the people here validated all that i felt, and helped me understand that i wasn't crazy, wasn't a neurotic, wasn't a complete fool. It also helped answer the why that had been plaguing me for months - i realised that his behaviour, for him, was perfectly normal, and that the reasons he did what he did stemmed from what he was, not from the way I was. That was the beginning of closure for me.

And then, i read. i read and read and read. about psychopaths. about crime. the more i understood the better i felt.

i began working again.

i spent time with my children.

i forced myself to do the million little tasks of everyday life.

and slowly i found my self worth coming back, and with it my sense of perspective returning.

sometimes i still cry. but it no longer hurts the way it used to. most times though, i look back on the whole experience with bemusement, and usually end up celebrating my escape.

today, for teh first time in many months, i actually felt that were i to run into him by chance, i would be able to face him without flinching. that is a victory of sorts.

i would say - hang in there, trust in time and in yourself. closure will come. it has to. and it will come from you. NOT from him. NEVER from him.

I have to agree with Diane, Mindy and Neverthesame. You will never get closure from him and it ALL has to come from you. You deserve closure, and might have the chance to get it if you were in a normal relationship ~~ wanting it is normal and healthy. Unfortunately, he is not normal nor healthy. I waited for MONTHS for an apology from my ex. I certainly deserved one ~~ still do! ~~ but I know it will never happen. It takes awhile to wrap your mind around that. Interaction will only re-open things.

I think someone has mentioned journalling on this forum elsewhere. I journalled extensively early on and found it to be very helpful. Here is an excerpt from my journal entry dated April 23, 2001:

"Today is my day of reclamation and closure. I know I will never receive the satisfaction of closure from ____, but I am determined to have it anyway, for myself.

Recognizing the aspects of myself that he had drained from me was great for me. Perhaps this exercise would help you also. You might be surprised at the list you are able to come up with, I know I was.

Sylvie, you mentioned listening to music as a coping suggestion earlier. I would like to expand on that one a bit. My ex loved to make fun of my taste in music. (Only joking, OF COURSE). His point was to degrade me about myself via my musical choices.

I have found that now listening to ANY SONG I really enjoy is tremendously healing. More so, listening to those songs with the volume up REALLY REALLY LOUD has been awesome. I was able to go out yesterday (first time in weeks) and I had my car totally vibrating with music that I LOVE ~~ mostly just one song which I played over and over. Sometimes I just drink it in, sometimes I sing along (loudly) and sometimes I cry because it just feels so good. Living life out loud is so much better than having it muffled by a P.

Thanks, girls! Everything you all wrote has been really helpful, and deep down, I know - he will never provide closure because it's something he knows I want, need. I keep telling myself he is sick and I don't expect from sick people something that they can't give. It IS difficult to wrap my head around this, because if he's sick, how come I stayed with him for 2.5 years and what does that say about me, or make me?
The support I've found here has been an incredible source of strength - I hope one day *soon* I'll be where all of you are and can help others out of the deep, dark pit!

What it says about you is that you were a good person who probably believed in him more than he deserved....gave him more chances than he deserved...because you wanted to believe in the good.

Yes...maybe there was insecurities...and other issues that contributed to that behavior...but...u know what..join the club...who doesnt have issues and insecurites...

SO...we got conned...we got taken...it was horrible...but now we know...now we can break free...now we can heal...and now we can do our best to make sure we dont let our insecurities...or anyone/anything else...lead us astray that way...

You will get through this...as a matter of fact...you ARE getting through it...and setbacks are expected and allowed...as long as u keep pushing forward...and not let the setback knock u down too hard...

I know - he will never provide closure because it's something he knows I want, need.

It is that, but it is also more than that. There is a reason that people feel like they are being fed on by P's, why P's bring up images of babies who can't let go of the breast, why they are talked about as hollow empty beings. They really do have personalities that are that empty and unformed. They CAN'T give anything of substance to you. They have no internal reference system for it. All they can do is take and feed and hurt you when you withhold what they need and feel is theirs by right - the very essence of you.

The pity is that this is something that is a lifelong dysfunction that does not ever get better no matter what. And proof of that stretching back behind you and around on all sides are the destroyed lives and hearts of good men and women who tried to love them enough to give them what they need to heal and to try to teach them how to be human. It never worked and it never will.

Giving closure entails having enough care and love for another human being to give them their selves back. It is what we all do as adults when we end a relationship. P's don't have enough substance inside to care for another. More their punishing and withholding makes more sense in terms of the infant that smacks the mother when the breast is withdrawn. Mother equals breast at that early time. P's never develop their sense of others beyond that - a source of what they want and need.

Because of this P's are wholly unsuited for life as an adult and they have none of the strengths necessary to exist as an adult in an adult world. Think of your own strengths for a minute even the tinies ones. The P lacks these.

But what they have is the ability to spin illusion through their lies. They can't give substance but they can give the appearance of substance. They use lies to entice you. They use lies to hook you. They use lies to fabricate reality around you. They use lies to compartmentalise their lives to protect their lies. My P's favorite joke was, "Lie to me. We can be friends." That is actually his reality.

When their lies fail, which they ultimately do, they have no substance to replace it with. All they can do is either try to lie some more or rage at you or hurt you to control you where their lies have failed.

What your staying with him says about you is the same thing that it said about all of us who are victims of P's. You are a steadfast and loving human being, who is faithful, nurturing, and strong, and most of all GIVING. P's are vampiric. There is a reason he picked you out of the pack.

Yup, music with it's uplifting, freeing quality is amazing. I realize I too didn't listen to music much while dating the P. I also didn't read very much at all which is I had previously loved. It's ironic that while with Ps, we stop doing the very things that can help alleviate the effects of their poison.

I recall after I broke up with the P and we got back together for a few months, he had a CD of symphony music in his car which I thought was odd since he had never shown any appreciation for that genre before. Granted people's taste change but in his case I was sure it was just pretentiousness - an attempt to cast himself in a different light. I kidded him about it and his P laugh confirmed my belief.

You said "It's ironic that while with Ps, we stop doing the very things that can help alleviate the effects of their poison".

I honestly think that the reason we do that is out of self-preservation. P's hone in on the things we love so they can corrupt them in some way to use them to divide us against ourselves. I think sometimes it comes down to either willingly walking away from the things we enjoy or being turned against them ourselves and losing them forever. My ex could actually have turned me against the very music that I love and I think that would have made him very happy because I would have lost a part of me in the process. But instead I let it go so he no longer had that target.

In a backwards kind of way it is like that saying "If you love something, let it go...if it comes back to you it is really yours and if it doesn't come back it was never yours to begin with" (HA HA, probably terribly misquoted, but you get the idea).

For me, living with my ex was like being in some horrid hostage situation for 20 years. Psychologically, I was held in a little room under a bare lightbulb while someone tried desperately to get the information out of me that he wanted to know. Then one at a time, things that were important to me were brought in and I was told that I had to give up my information or this very important thing would be destroyed. A choice. Looking back, I can see how I just pretended that the important thing was not so important. Once he believed that, he quit trying to use that particular thing to break me and hurried on to find another.

Subconsciously I knew that someday I would get out of that little room and then I could reclaim all those important things. Because I had willingly given them up and made them seem unimportant, they were not destroyed.

I think that is why we give up the things we love. When you are with a P, it is either give it up or have it torn away and destroyed. As we go about picking those things up again, maybe we should congratulate ourselves that we outmaneuvered our P's by doing it the way we did.

Yes! I completely agree with what you said. And the image of being in a little room with a dangling lightbulb is perfect.

Once I started seeing how my P would manipulate information and use it against me, I would feed him information that he thought was useful, when in reality, it was something that I didn't care much about. This WAS a form of self-defense that I had, unwillingly, used, and looking back now, I realize how much energy, effort, and thought I spent in trying to keep afloat, which explains the absolute exhaustion I felt for the 2.5 years I was with him. I also now see that my support network (friends, family) also provided me with the 'life jacket' to stay afloat when I felt I couldn't do it anymore...

I totally know what you mean that some people do that out of self preservation. That's a good point. I can't honestly say that was the case with me when it came to music and reading because the P didn't live with me, so I had some time to myself and those activities would have helped me maintain my identity. Also, he would have run into serious resistance if he tried to control me to that extent. He did try in other ways though and did a lot of damage in those areas, so I can relate to what you're saying. I let go of a lot of valued friendships at that time but luckily I have reconnected with many of them. Says something about the calibre of my friends!

I can relate with all above posts, my ex would find out what my interests were and share this information with others (friends and family) trying to make fun of me for my interests by putting me down over my likes and dislikes. Looking back at it all now, it appears she was jealous that I had interests outside of catering to her needs and wants.

Why did we stay? What DOES that say about us? I think it says that we are capable of truly loving. Since I have experienced so much of the OPPOSITE of love from those closest to me, I use the below reference to help me recognize love:

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
I Corinthians 13:4-7

Didn't we do all that? The patience. That hope, oh good gravy, I remember the hope so well. That he could change. That it could/would be different and OK. How long did we all persevere? Give it another chance, just a little longer and maybe the relationship would work after all.

I beat up on myself for so long after my divorce for hoping and trying for as long as I did. But I don't think love would have done anything else. I see now that there was nothing to beat myself up for. I loved.

Hi Maria can relate to that fully its a rollercoaster but the worst for me is I haven't even dealt with the situation. He is still around, but I have those feelings even with him being around. Hope you understand what Im saying.

James - I think that your staying connected to your dad goes deeper than just protecting your mom. I think we all wish that the P in our lives would change. Being the Ps they are they seem to give us just enough to keep that hope alive. Then they revert to the evil creatures they are until we are almost gone - repeat cycle. Sad but true. When the P is our parent, I think it is worse. We always want to have a parent - mine were not P's but my mother is a bit on the narrisisstic side, but I so want that story book mommy that I will continue the abuse until she is gone and the story has an end.

_________________________
Cindymom to 4, step mom to threeincluding one FP

It's not true I think that it is your aul..however you are the one thinking your thoughts.I aspect by saying so that there can be some control over the way some one thinks.I do notmean it is or will be easy...But with training and excersising this must be possible..... don't you think so?

hi I have read the coping suggestions thread and found it useful I have tried to teach myself these things like thought stopping. The mind tries to cycle over and over doesn't it. Which drains you. I find the mornings worst when I first wake up instead of being tired my mind seems to go straight to the worries and fears etc.. Writing down helps and venting on here. But exercise seems the best way for me. I live near a pool and can cycle there in five mins. After forty lengths of pool my mind feels reinvigorated and body too. I also buy myself a small gift or cup of coffee as a treat if I feel dreadfully low. After all loving yourself is the first step to breaking the mental hold I guess. Also concentrating on your immediate family/life and not worrying what the wider world thinks. If you are living a good honest life and being true to yourself the rest of it does not matter. If you choose not to engage with it. The reason you got into major problems with the psychopath could be because you were unaware. It should get easier now you know what the problem is. I think as people we can fight what we can see easier than what we get hit with from behind.

I have a few suggestions of my own...I found that just praying my way through the devestation was the most helpful...though not everyone is into God, he seems to give the best comfort. I also allowed myself time to cry it out. I think I cried for like two months, and silly as it sounds, I finally ran out of tears and I started searching for answers. I only found this site a week ago, but you all have helped me realize that there wasnt one thing I could do to make it work with someone that has heart. Oh!!! The light bulb clicked on and I understand now that life happens and thats ok. Some people out there are just wierd and I dont have to be involved with them! My name is Lee and I am a woman who has a huge heart, I enetered into a church and a relationship not knowing much about anything and I am walking away very informed and aware. Thank you for trying to destroy me because all you did was cause me to dig deeper and find a strength that had been hidden. You are what you are and you will never be much more than what you are...dellusions and dementions I cannot grasp and no longer wish to...as my life heights go higher yours will never leave the ground. As I soar you will always crawl on your belly like the serpent that you are. Goodbye headache, nightmare and heartbreak for you were only a chapter in the novel of my life and as all chapters come to an end, so has your time with me!

Thanks for that poem vanessa poetry has helped me enormously i have moved emotionally and physically to get away from a Psychopath and have good days and bad. I see others around who may be Psychopath's but that is one great thing that now i can see and they are the ones with the illness

After experiences with my Psychopath i now see the Psychopath's around me. They come all shapes and sizes but i still find it hard knowing how to deal with them close up. I try not to engage socially but if they decide to target you it can be difficult. At present one girl is giving cause for concern she is very young 19 but seems to be regarded by others as sweet and yet she comes across as false to me i caught her out in a lie early on how should i deal with her as i must see her daily where i am volunteering?

I find that a helpful advice. Drawing the boundaries and sending clear STOP signals can put the Psychopath into their place. Not all of them, of course. For some of them assertiveness is either a challenge or a button they seek to push because every upside has its downsides, too. That was an eyeopener for myself, as I hadn´t considered my strengths to be weaknesses at the same time, so when analyzing my weaknesses / needs / fears / self-doubt / shame / relations or network / blind spots to assess my vulnerability towards the Psychopath I included that upside-downside aspect. That way I find it easier to understand myself and draw a line that nobody should overstep undetectedly.

Sometimes it is difficult of course to draw that line especially if you´re in a situation or position when your main goal is to help others, be it volunteering or being a mom or friend or colleague / boss etc. In that case trusting your instincts and developing your ability to read between the lines and see patterns can go a long way. It won´t tell you the whole story but your mind can pick up from there to put it into perspective. Even when looking at a normal situation: how often have we fallen for someone and in the end realized that we knew it all along that that person wasn´t a good match. Our instincts had picked up on it but our education, traditions, intellect, needs and desires tried to convince us of the opposite. That´s why I made it a rule of thumb for myself to keep the order I find suitable for myself: first instinct, then thought, if I come in a tie situation between the two.

Hi Diane,Evanescence is a good one I will add to my personal list. I also liked:

* the latest Dixie Chicks (they were in a very destructive situation themselves and had to redefine themselves and their career) - "I´m not ready to make nice" or if you´ve been excluded from your acceptance or environment "Easy Silence that you make for me" - and of course the fact that after their many years of struggle they received the grammy

* Pink (always a great power source, to me she seems to have faced narcissistic struggles with her environment at some point) - e.g. "18 wheeler" (you can run over me with your 18 wheeler truck, and it won´t bring me down)

* Al Gore - for being a role model with his courage to completely redefine his career after all the vote counting trouble (and getting the nobel prize )

And some more awesome soul support lyrics:

* Maya Angelou (what a wise woman!)

STILL I RISEYou may write me down in historyWith your bitter, twisted lies,You may trod me in the very dirtBut still, like dust, I'll rise.

Does my sassiness upset you?Why are you beset with gloom?'Cause I walk like I've got oil wellsPumping in my living room.

Just like moons and like suns,With the certainty of tides,Just like hopes springing high,Still I'll rise.

Did you want to see me broken?Bowed head and lowered eyes?Shoulders falling down like teardrops,Weakened by my soulful cries?

Does my haughtiness offend you?Don't you take it awful hard'Cause I laugh like I've got gold minesDiggin' in my own backyard.

You may shoot me with your words,You may cut me with your eyes,You may kill me with your hatefulness,But still, like air, I'll rise.

Does my sexiness upset you?Does it come as a surpriseThat I dance like I've got diamondsAt the meeting of my thighs?

Out of the huts of history's shameI riseUp from a past that's rooted in painI riseI'm a black ocean, leaping and wide,Welling and swelling I bear in the tide.

Leaving behind nights of terror and fearI riseInto a daybreak that's wondrously clearI riseBringing the gifts that my ancestors gave,I am the dream and the hope of the slave.I riseI riseI R-I-S-E.

And another one (I hope you don´t mind me putting long notes out here, find it helpful to share those power sources that always boost my happiness and strength)

Christina Aguilera

FIGHTER

After all you put me through You'd think I'd despise you But in the endI wanna thank you 'cause you made me that much stronger

Well I thought I knew you, thinkin' that you were trueGuess I, I couldn't trust called your bluff time is up'Cause I've had enoughYou were there by my side, always down for the rideBut your joy ride just came down in flames'Cause your greed sold me out of shame, mhm

After all of the stealing and cheating you probably think thatI hold resentment for youBut uh uh, oh no, you're wrong'Cause if it wasn't for all that you tried to do, I wouldn't knowJust how capable I am to pull throughSo I wanna say thank you'Cause it

Chorus:Makes me that much strongerMakes me work a little bit harderMakes me that much wiserSo thanks for making me a fighterMade me learn a little bit fasterMade my skin a little bit thickerMakes me that much smarterSo thanks for making me a fighter

Never saw it coming, all of your backstabbingJust so you could cash in on a good thing before I'd realize your gameI heard you're goin' round playin', the victim nowBut don't even begin feeling I'm the one to blame'Cause you dug your own graveAfter all of the fights and the lies 'cause you're wanting to haunt meBut that won't work anymore, no more, no noIt's over'Cause if it wasn't for all of your tortureI wouldn't know how to be this way now and never back downSo I wanna say thank you'Cause it

Chorus:Makes me that much strongerMakes me work a little bit harderIt makes me that much wiserSo thanks for making me a fighterMade me learn a little bit fasterMade my skin a little bit thickerMakes me that much smarterSo thanks for making me a fighterHow could this man I thought I knewTurn out to be unjust so cruelCould only see the good in youPretended to not to see the truthYou tried to hide your lies, disguise yourselfThrough living in denialBut in the end you'll seeYOU-WON'T-STOP-ME

I am a fighter and II ain't goin' stopThere is no turning backI've had enough

Chorus:Makes me that much strongerMakes me work a little bit harderIt makes me that much wiserSo thanks for making me a fighterMade me learn a little bit fasterMade my skin a little bit thickerMakes me that much smarterSo thanks for making me a fighter

Thought I would forget, but II rememberCause I remember I rememberI R-E-M-E-M-B-E-R !!!!!!!

And sometimes we wonder whether we should go on, whether we have the strength to make even one more step in front of the other... But remember you can always try to heal by sharing your pain and your story and your insight with others. We are here.

Madonna

LIVE TO TELL (the tale)

I have a tale to tellSometimes it gets so hard to hide it wellI was not ready for the fallToo blind to see the writing on the wall

Chorus:

A man can tell a thousand liesIve learned my lesson wellHope I live to tellThe secret I have learned, till thenIt will burn inside of me

I know where beauty livesIve seen it once, I know the warmth she givesThe light that you could never seeIt shines inside, you cant take that from me

(chorus)

2nd chorus:

The truth is never far behindYou kept it hidden wellIf I live to tellThe secret I knew thenWill I ever have the chance again

If I ran away, Id never have the strengthTo go very farHow would they hear the beating of my heartWill it grow coldThe secret that I hide, will I grow oldHow will they hearWhen will they learnHow will they know

Some very valuable and simple advice I learned from a training was the

HOUSE OF STRENGTH (THREE-LEGS PERSPECTIVE):

Imagine yourself as having 3 legs:* social/personal life* hobbies/interests/endeavours* work

If we have all three, we can stand firmly.

If one of these breaks, e.g. due to family problems or bullying/jobloss/burnout at work we still have two. It´s a bit shaky, but we still can stand our ground.

But if two break or we have neglected even more, than we are shattered on the ground. But there is hope, because we can always try to rebuild ourselves, our house of strength by not only focusing on the core problem but the surrounding aspects in our lives.

Further ReadingDr. Hare & Paul Babiak´s book "Snakes in Suits" were the humongous eyeopener for me. They´ve changed my understanding of the world in the most positive way although it is on such a difficult topic.

I also found 2 other books very helpful as they add the HEALING aspect to the picture:

* Marie-France Hirigoyen´s "Stalking the Soul" (emotional abuse in personal & work relationships and family). I found it very soothing as she focuses on the confusion / gaslighting of the victim by its aggressor. She perfectly counters the misconception that victims are often at least partly blamed for what happened although their perpetrators were abusing their love and good faith. She explains the spiral of self-doubts and dependence that their aggressors are creating, strengthening and then exploiting over and over again as they feed on their victims as parasites. She is using the overlapping concept of a "pervert abuser" which I understood to be probably a bit more on the malignant narcissist side but many explanations also fit the psychopathic game in general (who often has narcissistic traits).

* Martha Stout´s "The Psychopath Next Door": she puts the issue of psychopathy in perspective to many other concepts of psychology and society (ego/survival-of-the-fittest vs. humans as a social species with need for dependence). It helped me a lot dealing with the pain that there are so many of them out there, because although they cause a lot of devastation they are only one piece of the puzzle of mankind and she perfectly weaves that carpet of understanding with many, many helpful examples and studies. Hence, very good complementary reading to Dr. Hare´s & Paul Babiak´s book. It has many parts that make it a very soothing and healing book, especially the chapters towards the end. I hope it´s ok to quote a brief excerpt of it (page 217/218) and highly recommend reading the whole book:

"As for the question of who is more fortunate, the person ruthlessly engaged only in exactly what he wants to do, or you, who are obligated by your conscience - once again, I ask you to imagine what you would be like if you had no seventh sense. But this time as you envision your huge influence and wealth, or your permanent leisure without guilt, imagine it while bearing in mind what conscience and only conscience can bring to a life, what it has brought to yours. Picture clearly the face of someone you love more than all of your earthly possessions, someone for whom you would run headlong into a burning building if this were required of you - a parent, a brother, a sister, a dear friend, your life partner, your child. Try to picture that same face - a parent´s, or a daughter´s, or a son´s - weeping in grief, or smiling in peace and joy.

And now imagine for a moment that you could look forever and feel absolutely nothing, no love, no desire to help or even smile back.

But do not imagine this careening emptiness too long, though it would stretch throughout a lifetime if you were a person without conscience, someone who could guiltlessly do anything at all. Rather, return to your feelings. In your mind, see the face you love, touch a cheek, hear the laughter.

Conscience blesses our individual lives with just this kind of meaning every day. Without it, we would be emotionally hollow and bored, and would spend our days pursuing repetitive games of our own misguided creation.

For most of us, most of the time, conscience is so ordinary, so daily, and so spontaneous that we do not even notice it. But conscience is also much larger than we are. It is one side of a confrontation between an ancient faction of amoral self-interest that has always been doomed, both psychologically and spiritually, and a circle of moral minds just as ageless. As a psychologist and as a citizen of the species, I vote for the people with conscience, for the ones who are loving and committed, for the generous and gentle souls. I am most impressed by those individuals who feel, quite simply, that hurting others is wrong and that kindness is right, and whose actions are quietly directed by this moral sense every day of their lives. They are an elite of their own. They are old and young. They are people who have been gone for hundreds of years and the baby who will be born tomorrow. They come from every nation, culture, and religion. They are the most aware and focused members of our species. And they are, and always have been, our hope."---- end of excerpt ----

Pat thanks for your inspirational postings so powerful to have the info and to be able to pass to others sometimes it is hard to put into words what has happened to us i feel sea for the ones who have been totally destroyed but glad i still have some emotional legs to stand on my Psychopath is so angry that i keep on going and improving

Hello - I'm new here, and this is also my first blog experience ... thanks for the suggestions already posted. What I'm looking for today is specific advice on how to tell my Psychopath husband of not quite three years that I am, in fact, leaving. My son and daughter are coming to town next week and will help me pack up my stuff and get it out of the house. But I keep perserverating on how/when to tell J.

Briefly, I found out about his other women a year ago and told him then, "this is your first warning - stop seeing other women, or I'm leaving." We did 6 months of counseeling and he told me he had stopped. Over this past Christmas, i found out that he had not stopped ... and I gave him a 2nd warning, same as the first. In February, I downloaded his cell phone bills since Dec 2006, and found out that he had more women (looks like at least 5) than I had known, he called them more often than I had guessed, and it had been going on since at least Dec 2006 (that's when he switched cell phone carriers - we married in Apri l2006).

We're both 58 - he's my second husband. I thought he was charming, funny, a great dancer and sexy, the opposite (of course) of husband #1. Now I find out he's a cheater - with women, and with taxes. The dolt owes $120,000 to the IRS! AND he has lied constantly to me about both women and money since I met him 5 years ago. SOOOOO, I'm leaving. I've rented a house, and am ready to go .... my attorney suggested I look up the definition of "Psychopath" and yes, J fits it perfectly. I'm outta here.

But am afraid of his reaction. Any ideas on how best to structure my good-bye speech???

Hi, the others have given some good advise. I am not asking where you live for your own pricacy but the main issues is to know your rights about the finances. I know here in the US if one party owes taxes the partner also is responsible. Don't expect to get any money from him, just try your best to protect what is yours. I am glad your children are coming to help, I would move quickly and silently. There is NO reason to negotiate with a Psychopath. Unfortunately the therapy probably helped him see more of your buttons to push.

Cheating, lying are all the trademarks, plus multiple partners. Sounds like he has plenty of victims in the wings waiting, sorry for them, but this is about your safety.

I have toyed with the idea of just leaving and not telling him ... but ... you know how it is ... that just seems so cold and wrong, from my good-girl point of view. So, I thank you all for supporting the idea that I just pack up and go - "Hop off the bus, Gus. Don't need to discuss much. Just drop off the key, Lee, and get yourself free" is the Paul Simon song that's been running through my head.

I'll just leave. No speech that can be used against me. And forget any note - he'll just tear it up. Whatever I write/say, he won't hear/absorb. So, I'll just leave. Thanks!!!

To answer your queries: my attorney was the first person to suggest the word "psychopath" (not the counselor). I was shocked, but he said, "Just look it up. You'll see that J fits all the symptoms." And he does fit every one of Dr. Hare's characteristics, except for the one about getting in trouble as a teenager.

Through the grace of God, my guardian angel, and my best girlfriend, I filed "Married, Separate" IRS returns the two years we have been married, so I am NOT liable for any of his tax issues, old or new.

The contact issue is going to be dicey. Here's the situation. We live in a town of less than 1,000 in a rural area, 20 miles away from two other, somewhat larger towns. We have been living in his grandmother's 100-yr old house in town #1, and I have never liked it, so that's why I am moving out. I have rented a house in town #2 and I work in town #3. Even if I don't tell him exactly which house I have rented, he can figure it out if he wants to and he knows where I work. I plan not to answer the phone when he calls (or when some unknown number calls me) and to relay all his queries to my attorney.

My money is safe - I have some that I inherited from my mother last year. The other dicey thing is going to be divvying up the money and house that his mother left to both of us last year (yes, that's right, both his mother and my mother died last year, and I had a mild bout of breast cancer - now this. I am weary, let me tell you.)

And, to complicate things, he talked me into to buying a small local business last October. He has always worked as an independent contractor while we have been married, and now he's running this small business [and withdrawing money from the business when he feels like it - another red flag]. My attorney and accountant have suggested that fellows like this rarely make a big success of small businesses - their lack of detail to little things like payroll taxes usually come around to bite them in the hiney.

I figure that if I can get out with my mother's money intact, I'm happy. But I am going to let my attorney go after my half of J's mother's money/house, and my contribution to the business. On paper, it's pretty clear. But it will get crazy as it plays out because the fellow that J will likely ask to be his attorney is his long-time friend, and another psychopath. Fun times ahead!

Hello, again - I've been reading several old posts on this site ... and I'm beginning to think that I should rent a house in town #3, where it would be much harder for him to track me down. I'd rather live in #2 where many of my friends live, and my son, but maybe it would be just too easy for him to find me in case he goes weird/ballistic/stalker mode.

I just can't predict how he's going to react to me leaving him and filing for divorce. He has never displayed any violence to me, although I have seen an explosive temper 3 times in our marriage of nearly 3 years ... is there such a thing as being a "mild" psychopath? or do they all behave irrationally when they don't get what they want???

It's like this. It was MY DREAM five years ago to leave San Francisco and move to #2 - a very cool, hip, international small town - wide open skies, big stars, beautiful "light", it's gorgeous.

Then I met/married J and moved out of my perfect town to his grandmother's house in his family town (#1). We moved in with his mother - I took care of her for about 3 years before she died last year (yeah, I did that, too - and I also cleaned out mountains of stuff from the old house - nobody had thrown anything away ever - the storeroom was filled with 17 mattresses, now mice nests!).

So, my first impulse was to move back to MY town where MY friends and MY son live ... it hacks me off to think that I should not live in MY town because HE's a jerk. But, it's probably safer, especially in the short run. That will give me a chance to see how he reacts to my leaving him - whether he turns into the scary stalker y'all describe, or whether he grabs onto another woman ASAP and leaves me alone ... and then of course, there's all the ugliness to come of the divorce proceedings. I know he's not going to be happy when he finds out how broke he will be.

Anyway, I spent my lunch hour researching a place to move here in #3 (where I work).

And if he does turn out to be scary I'll quit my job (whoa! that's scary too!) and move to the really big city where my daughter lives. I'd rather start over again somewhere else than deal with the madness y'all describe. Yuck.

AAHHH, I hear you. Don't sneak out and hide from him ... walk tall, tell others what's going on (I have already started to do that), and let him know, "I'm not playing your games anymore." That's good. Thanks - that's a different attitude than what I had envisioned.

As of this minute, my plan is to move out and leave this note on the back of my attorney's business card:

"I warned you. I'm gone."

No verbal confrontation. No long-winded letter - I wrote it, you better believe, but I've torn it up. I'm liking this minimalist approach.

I'm really OK with all this - it's been a journey the last couple of months but I'm OK now. This will make you smile: I am an Excel spreadsheet queen, so I took the February cell phone cell, downloaded into an Excel table, and played with it to make a colorful graphic that hangs in front of my face at my desk. I color-coded the calls he made to me and to FIVE other women, and data-sorted them by number of minutes ... to look at it, you just see a bunch of colored lines with numbers in them (no other information) - but to me, it's a striking visual reminder of his behavior. And with that in front of my eyes at all times, especially when he's talking to me, I feel pretty darn strong.

I would be careful leaving any kind of communication even the attorney's card. I would focus your attention on immediately getting the attorney to put a freeze on any assets so he doesn't have time to juggle things around.

I would say move wherever YOU want, just install those small cameras so you can know if he is snooping around. Besides he has many victims in the wing to welcome him with open arms when he tells them what a creep you are -NOT, lol.

Stand tall, but do remember most people won't really understand, but we are all here rooting for you. I would guess they have only seen the charming side of him.

It is a blessing your Attorney knows what he is dealing with and will understand the urgency of getting the money secure sooner than later.

I was thinking that leaving the card would indicate, "I have nothing to say to you - talk to my attorney." If I don't leave him the card, and won't return his phone calls/emails, how do I let him know who my attorney is? is that information on the divorce papers they will serve him?

I have been Xeroxing like mad this last month, documenting the current state of financial affairs in the marriage. The lawyer has copies. And I'll file for divorce on Monday - all of which should constrain the financial shenanigans.

I heard a wonderful story on NPR Sunday afternoon (On The Media, I think it was) - talking about movies about con men (The Sting, etc.). I laughed out loud! He conned me! And now I'm conning him! He is living in a bubble of his own ego, thinking that life is going smoothly.

And get this. Prayers are answered. I was musing Saturday afternoon how much easier it would be if he was out of town overnight sometime this coming weekend - would make the move that much easier. Not two hours later, he sat at the dinner table and told me he has to go to Lubbock on Friday afternoon to do some cattle business (and see his honey, I suspect) - won't be back until late Saturday afternoon. Well, well, well.

Hi, great timing. I am quite sure the name of your Attorney would appear on the papers when served. My guess is if he gets served and is surprised he won't be able to dodge being in receipt of the paperwork?

Hi, Di: Well, it will probably be a cousin of his who serves him - it's a very small county. I don't have any idea how one "dodges" the sheriff ... we'll deal with that if it comes up. I'm not at all worried.

Hi, what great news, it is always a great day to see a victim get out of the clutches of evil.

His cousin takes an oath of office so you are right, there is nothing to concern yourself with.

One suggestion, not trying to sound paranoid but these people can become wiggle worms. Can you arrrange to take a date stamped video or photos before and when your things are removed showing what is his that is left? This way he can't play games saying you took some of his things.

I wish we had a large bell to ring and some balloons to fly in the air to send you on your way, please let us know how things go.

I have some more questions for you that would help others who may only read but will do that after you are settled and ready. I am sitting here beaming it is such wonderful news.

I DID IT! (but too late to photo-document what was left in the house - good idea, though).

I am sitting here on Monday morning, smiling to read your encouraging words. There were several moments WED-FRI last week when I feared he suspected what I was planning, but, you know, he's pretty oblivious to things that aren't about him, so he didn't catch on at all. He took off for an 8-hour business trip on Saturday, as planned (phew!). My friends and daughter arrived about 9:00 while a light snow was falling ... they brought three pick-ups and a 16-ft trailer to the house. We packed up all my stuff in about 4 hours. As we pulled away from the house, the sun came out! I did leave him a note: "I have moved out. I am sorry to have to do it this way, but I warned you. I told you that I would leave if you didn't stop seeing other women. I can't live with you because I can't trust you. May God bless you." Takin' the high road. I did not leave him contact info for my attorney.

I was pretty shaky, both emotionally and physically, Saturday afternoon/evening, so I turned my phone off and holed up with my daughter at a friend's guesthouse. I was afraid J would come home Saturday evening and be violently angry that I had left. Sunday afternoon, before she left to drive home, my daughter listened to the messages on my phone (I just wasn't ready to hear his voice). Was he violently angry? Stalking the streets trying to find me? Nope. Here's his messages:

Saturday, 6 pm. "I just got home, and it looks like you're not here ...."Saturday, a few minutes later: "I found your note."

Sunday noon: "I'm at the office, if you want to talk."Sunday 5:30: "I've finished up here at the office. I haven't heard from you , so, I figure that rather than me tracking you down, why don't you just call me when you want to talk."

Went to church Sunday morning, out to brunch (then a nap) and then out to dinner -- and all my friends were extremely supportive - offering me furniture, a mattress, a washer/dryer, you name it. Actually, many of them expressed joy that it's "only a divorce" as they thought that my breast cancer from last fall had come back - that's how woebegone, depressed and not-myself I have been looking since early January. I feel perkier today than I have in a very looooong time.

Enough of my little sad storyy - so many others on this blog are so much uglier and tougher to deal with. I just wanted to let all you wonderful people know that I got moved out OK and that I'm feeling much better - we still have all the difficulties of divorce ahead, but, as they say, "We'll jump off that bridge when we get to it" !!!

I have been thinking and remembering and pondering - how did I get myself into a marriage with a psychopath at 55 years old, smart cookie that I am? What red flags did I ignore? I thought I would write a little bit here to help others be aware ....

My first husband was dull, self-absorbed, and sexless - a good-enough father, a good provider and eminently trustworthy, but as my kids describe him, Eeyore. We divorced in 1999. Between 1999-2004, I dated several different fellows, in three different cities!

Then along came this handsome, sparkling, charming Texan, who appeared to be fascinated with me. He courted me for about two months before I went out with him the first time. He talked marriage almost immediately, but I would not even consider it until/unless all four of our children were supportive, which took two years. Oh, yes, and he was divorced just a week when he first started chasing me (which is way I put him off for two months). That should have been a reaaallly big red flag - but of course, I was willing to be understanding and forgiving, and blame it all on the second wife. Poor guy.

We immediately became a couple, dating exclusively (or so I thought). He was attentive, caring, kind. I really truly believed that he loved me, that he respected me, and that we could build a mature marriage together. I believed all that because he gave me the right answers to all my questions - and I asked him a lot of questions in the two years we dated before marrying. I know now that he was able to make me feel comfortable with his answers because he could "read" what I wanted him to say.

One small example. I invited him to join me at church, and he said, "Church is very important to me." Phooey. Although he went with me every week, he never demonstrated any religious feelings over the four years we attended church together - never was he moved by the words or the music. On the contrary, his most frequent comment was that he was thinking about sex during the service.

Uncanny, actually, how he could, chameleon-like, shape the outward vision of himself to fit what I wanted to see in our first say, 3 years together. He was not only charming and funny and a great dancer, but he sure seemed to be interested in me and my goals and my ideas about work and family. Now I know, too, that I was wearing a thick pair of rose-colored glasses - I wanted to believe what he told me, and I did. It never occurred to me to question his authenticity or his motives in courting me.

All the time, he had women on the side. All the time, he did not pay income taxes. All the time, he set NO money aside for retirement (none). This is a man in his late 50s.

When I asked him directly about his former love life and his finances, he either lied to me directly or weaseled his way out of an answer ("Don't fuss your pretty little head about that, sugar").

So, what's my advice (to myself as well as to other women out there)?

TIME. Give it time. In my case, two years wasn't enough - it was three years before his facade frazzled around the edges. If you have any queasiness at all about the relationship, give it more time. He can't keep up his pretenses forever.

And beware of that CHARM. Sniff it out and see if it feels genuine. Sure, it feels good to be noticed, to be coddled, to be doted on, to have your feet massaged ... but is it real? Or is it manipulative?

LISTEN, really listen to his stories. how does he describe other people? his ex-wife? It seems that my soon-to-be-ex knows a lot of jerks - he describes so many of his colleagues/family that way.

And, for sure, sniff out his FINANCES. Ask to see his checkbook, his tax returns, his credit rating. If you marry the guy, you are instantly legally tied to all his financial dealings, good and bad. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

All my best wishes go out to all who read this, wherever you are in your journey with a psychopath. Take care of yourselves!

Three full days after he came home to a half-empty house, he gets around to writing this e-mail to me. I thought you'd enjoy seeing it, as it is a "classic." He promises everything that I asked him for ... in October 2007! I think they call that: TOO LITTLE, TOO LATE.

i hope you are safe and well...needless to say it is quiet here....i appeal to you to come back and make a go of it with me....this has scared me deeply and i am so sorry for the mess i've made....i will never stray again...please consider trying again....i have the resolve to be yours only.....you are good to me always and i didnt realize the extent of your understanding....i also realize you will need some assurences and i am happy to allow your looking over my shoulder....the lose of face in front of dan and nora is nothing compared to the loss of our future....one i can live with, the other i cant (not suicide or any of that).....of course the decision is yours and i will abide by it...just cant face that now....please reconsider our relationship togather....

reply when you can....life goes on here.....wags are talking, so there is nothing new.....hope you are well....love and miss you,joe

MY REPLY THIS MORNING:

Thank you for your kind note. I am safe and well.

You expressed your regret and remorse eloquently, and I appreciate the effort it took for you to write those words. However, I do not have any confidence in your promises. Because I cannot trust you, I cannot be married to you.

UPDATEThis past weekend, he told a friend that he had "no idea" why I moved out. All my warnings, all our discussions, all those months in counseling - and he has "no idea." All my efforts were water off the proverbial duck's back. He wasn't listening, didn't hear, didn't care.

Every day is better and better - it is truly amazing what a week or two of eight-hour sleeps can do for one's outlook. Now I know that when I'm feeling sad/dreary, it's often because I'm simply tired. So, rather useless worrying, I wash my face and go to bed, to find that everything has changed the next morning.

The legal flurry of papers has begun. My attorney filed for divorce without mentioning fault. Immediately, J's atty counter-filed, naming me at fault (I haven't seen these documents yet so I don't know what argument he made for me causing the break-up of the marriage). My attorney, bless his little legal heart, counter-counter-filed, naming my soon-to-be ex-husband at fault. All of which just shows me that my Psychopath husband and his Psychopath attorney/best/only friend, are NOT planning on taking the high road. I expected that, and I will let my attorney take the brunt of the blows. I know they'll try all sorts of tricks,and it will be unpleasant and disturbing to watch them throw mud at me.

One of the most interesting things that has happened in my mind these past two weeks is realizing, at a very deep level, that EVERYTHING J told me over the past five years is a lie, or at least, suspect. EVERYTHING. It's as if someone took an eraser to the blackboard and rubbed out ALL the memories. The marriage was a sham, all of it. And nothing remains. Which actually makes it sort of easier to leave him. I spend very little time thinking about the "good times," knowing that they are false memories, however pleasant I thought they were at the time. The man I was in love with does not exist.

For instance, he told me how his second wife got a split lip. You guessed it, it was all her fault. He was innocent. Now I don't believe that story any more. I am certain he was less than the total innocent he made himself out to be. Curiously, the rumor circulating in this small town is that the reason I left him is because he hit me ... small towns have long memories.

Glad to hear you're feeling better by the day! I feel that I must confirm Jan's warning about the legal system. Unfortunately psychopaths seem to have a very clever way when it comes to the law and if his lawyer is also a psychopath, then you really have to be on your guard. By the way, psychopaths and narcissists are naturally drawn to the legal profession, and they are particularly good at it (not difficult to figure why). I find it interesting that you mention that his lawyer is also his friend, because so was my ex's.

I'm also going to sound like I'm lecturing you, so please excuse me. But you really need to be on your lawyer's case. I find it apalling for example, that he didn't cite cause in the first place for your divorce, or that you are still waiting to see a copy of the documents that the ex filed. He should have e-mailed it to you before he even drew up the counter! Shocking, shocking, shocking (shaking my head). This is the same kind of thing that put me in such a bad state with my divorce.

Also, you do realise that the psychopath tells his lawyer what to do. A psychopath NEVER leaves anything to chance. You must insist that your lawyer gives you all the options available to you, and then YOU tell him what to do. Fight fire with fire! Sure, he can advise you, but never leave a lawyer to his own devices. I'm sorry to say it, but, especially not a lawyer like yours.

I notice that you are calling the ex to be psychopath, J. I presume it stands for John or Jack or Jimmy etc. It should stand for Jerk. I never call my ex Psychopath by his first name (except to his face, lol, and then I want to vomit). I call him the Thug. I even have him listed in my phone as the Thug. Believe me, this has helped me a lot to detach from him. Just a tip

Here's another tip for anyone who wants to regain "themselves" after divorcing a psychopath. Change your surname back to your maiden name. I did, and boy am I glad. Not only do I feel like my old self again, but it sends a strong message to the Thug.

I appreciate your tough words about the legal system - it's just like the medical system - we complacently think that they are here to take care of us, but we have to fight every step of the way to make certain that they ARE taking care of us! I will have my eyes and ears open and my brain cells chugging away to make sure that it comes out right for me. Thanks for the advice.

I like J=Jerk. A lot.

But about that maiden name thing. I just changed my name (2 years ago) and I'm really not ready to do that again right now. And, I don't know what I would change it to ... I never liked my maiden name (it's difficult to understand and spell). Can't go back to the name I had for the longest time, my first husband's name. This one is simple, easy to spell, and very, very common. For the moment, I'm keeping it.

I'm really feeling like my old self again - applying for a new job, at 1.5x my current salary. New sheets, new mattress, aaah. New underwear, too.

Here's the thing. When I was in his web of lies, I lost myself. I remember feeling suffocated. I thought it was due to all the work we were doing on that creepy old house and taking care of his 90-plus yr old mother, which wasn't easy. But the work wasn't what was suffocating me - it was his lies. The whole charade he played. He duped all of us. Me, his mother, his sons, my children, my friends. He led us all to believe that he was this great upstanding guy, dedicated to me and to building our extended family. I believed him, but at some level, my soul rebelled - and felt suffocated.

What I'm trying to say is, PAY ATTENTION to those little wiggles of doubt that shiver through your body when you first meet one of these guys. Your soul can see through the charm and the lies, and it WILL give you a warning - but you gotta listen. I chose not to listen. But I think, at a very deep level, I knew. I think my innards never trusted him.

Just had to add two comments ~ first to On My Own Again, yes yes yes! I so clearly remember when the eraser appeared and a whole segment of my life literally vanished in my mind. I was still married to the Psychopath and remember actually telling him to his face that I felt as though he had just erased our prior 18 years of marriage. I understood much later that it was the truth of my own soul beginning to clean up the mess of lies. I have been divorced for 8 years and can now reflect on the marriage with the correct perspective, owning what was truly mine and what was an illusion.

Christine, I completely concur with your thought of returning to your maiden name. It was not a simple decision for me since at the time I wasn't sure about having a different last name from my children, but I feel it was an extremely positive move for me. I also like your take on detaching by even refusing to give him the power of his own name ~ lol! I firmly believe that any mental exercise that decreases a Psychopath is worth engaging in.

After many, many good days, I've hit a rough day, and am reaching out to you wise ladies for insights.

It's just that my skin isn't thick enough. I have always been a Pollyanna, thinking that everyone should just get along and be nice to each other. I really truly believe in "Do unto others ..." so I am always blind-sided when someone does something hurtful to me. Any hints on how to toughen up??

Here's what happened last night. Jerk's first cousin, a mean-spirited cheapskate, is telling folks around town that I am divorcing Jerk "for the money." That I married him with my eyes on the family house/money, waited for his mother to die, and am now going in for the kill. I know that says more about the way her mind works than about the way I conduct my life. I know. And I'm better this morning, but boy, last night, when I heard that story, I wanted to strike out, strike back, start calling family members and telling them how wrong that notion is ... I did nothing of the kind. I went home and cried myself to sleep. And woke up thinking about it, even though I know it doesn't matter.

I see this as just one more good day after the many. It may have felt negative to you but you handled it perfectly. You recognized that what this woman said was about her and not you. She was projecting what SHE is capable of doing onto you and you knew it. Projecting sounds so benign~no one tells you that psychopaths and people like them hit you with a sucker punch to the gut when they project. It is VERY forceful and painful.

I was once so dead inside that I couldn't feel the pain that was being inflicted upon me. I don't believe that the goal here is toughen up and not feel the pain. I think the goal is to be fully emotionally alive enough to recognize when someone is hurting you. I was emotionally dead in so many ways and I know that to be able to feel pain is a wondrous thing. To fully feel is to be fully alive.

When you interact with anyone remotely close to your ex, keep in mind that they will probably inflict pain upon you (knowingly or unknowingly). My dad is married to my ex's sister (Yep! That is what I said~not a typo!) and though she doesn't speak to my ex, she is still cut from the same cloth and slams me so hard sometimes that it literally takes my breath away. It is her nature and it hurts like crazy. And that is all good. Dead people can't feel, but I can (now)!

It is what you do with that slam that matters. You can expend your energy retaliating and join in the mud-slinging fest with them. I think that is what they really want ~ to bring you down to their level where they can hurt you even more and tire you out. Or you can keep your energy and take care of yourself ~ you did this by crying it through.

So you felt the pain. Good. You recognized that her comment was about her, not you. Good. You kept your energy. Good. That is indeed another good day!

Thanks for confirming my instincts, and for confirming that words CAN hurt like a "sucker punch to the gut."

I will have to see JERK Thursday morning at a court hearing - should be a simple matter, but the two of us will be in the same room together for the first time since I gave him that little wife-ly kiss goodbye the morning I moved out a month or so ago. I'm planning on a Buddha smile, deep breathing, and a little trick a friend taught me (a friend who says she has a PhD in Al-Anon!). You know how, in yoga, you open your hands, palms up, to RECEIVE energy? This hand motion is just the opposite - you bring all your fingertips of each hand together to touch your thumbs to CLOSE yourself to the negative enrgies flying around the room.

And I'm practicing the few things I might say, if he tries to speak to me."No.""I don't think so.""Is that so?"

Good luck at court, sounds like you have a good handle on the energy situation. Many times a victim with PTSD shows up at court and gets triggered by the Psychopath so the victim looks like the one with the problem.

One answer I use often and no one has ever caught on:

When they tell me something that I don't want to engage in I say, gee that is interesting, I guess if I were you I would feel the same way. Naturally I am not them but it does make a polite ending to the conversation without engaging.

Di

I wouldn't wait to put money into your mother's name, the sooner the better to clear up the paper trail.

Hearing's been delayed until May 5th. My attorney was stuck in a federal trial that went over into today, so we asked for the delay this time. I understand that delay is a favorite tactic of JERK's lawyer, but this time, it was our side.

Your comment about, "Gee, that's interesting" reminds me of what a dear Southern Belle friend used to say. The MOST ATTRACTIVE words in the English language are, "That's interesting ... tell me more." I have used that line a million times at parties, etc., just to get other people to talk (and find out what they are thinking).

I like the idea to twist it a bit and use it with JERK. It's a verbal method of deflecing the negative energy.

I'll keep you posted.

PS - I spent the day last weekend with two of my best, long-time girlfriends [we went through grad school and divorce all together in the 1990s]. And they jumped all over me, too, about returning to my maiden name. Soooo, I'm thinking I'll do it. It has taken me a while to get my mind around it, but it's the simplest solution. Nobody wants me to keep JERK's last name.

Here's what I have found out in the last two months that I didn't know in the five years I dated/married this fellow.

He was arrested in his early 20s for dealing drugs.

His father threw him out of the country (yes, I said "country" not "county" when he discovered that his son had been dealing drugs in the family's home town (when JERK was in his early 30s). JERK, wife and two sons emigrated to her home country and returned to JERK's hometown after his father died. After his father died, not before.

His Mama sold a family ranch to bail him out to the tune of six figures when he overextended himself financially (gambling on livestock futures in the early 1980s). And, she gave him $200,000 to build a house in the 1990s - money he's never paid back. And never paid the IRS taxes on that gift. Now his IRS debt is in the six figures (boy, he sure loves those six figures!)

He hit his 2nd wife on two occasions, and his first wife multiple times.

Another woman was in the process of closing up her business to move here and marry him when he met me and dropped her "like a hot potato with AIDS." He had been separated from wife #2 for about a year, but not yet actually divorced AND she was his wife's (former) best friend.

What's interesting to me about all these little facts is that he never mentioned them to me when recounting tales of his past. Never. Makes me understand why they say in court, "the truth, the WHOLE truth, and nothing but the truth." Even when he included a few actual facts in his stories, he never told me the whole truth. Never.

I'm only telling y'all this so that you will be WARY of those smooth talkin' charmers. They can spin great yarns ... but you gotta do some fact checking, which is what I failed to do. I listened to him and his mother and other family members - but didn't follow up on any outside sources to confirm/deny the stories I was hearing.

Keep your chin up. Be brave.

"Courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway." --John Wayne

No court date on an initial hearing, as we agreed outside of court on one minor question.

My attorney and I finished my proposed financial settlement offer yesterday. I, of course, think that it is extraodinarily fair - but I did includes a couple of clinkers as bargaining chips - clinkers that I know he won't agree to - I am figuring he'll toss the clinkers out and then we'll be left with exactly what I want in the settlement.

ONE MORE THING: I just want to repeat the oft-given advice of NO CONTACT.

It has been very effective for me to cut JERK totally out of my life. No contact at all. Nothing. It has made me feel stronger and helped me heal, AND I think it has crippled him a little bit. He tells friends that he is devastated that I left. So "devastated," by the way, that he has already started dating a new victim. Gotta have someone around.

My daughter got married this past November and I saw my ex and all the ex in-laws for the first time in 8 years. My ex and I had to stand INCHES from each other (yes,my skin was crawling in revulsion) and sign a book as parents of the bride and I did not say ONE SINGLE WORD TO HIM. I handed him the pen after I signed and he said 'thank you' and I still made no reply.

My ex sister-in-law came up to me as I was placing the flowers on the wedding cake and asked "Can I say hello?". And I said "No thank you." The end. These people will never be the recipients of ANY of my energy again. Was I nervous? You bet! Did it feel SO freaking good not to engage? You bet! Has there been a flurry of activity from within the 'enemy camp' since then? LOL~you bet! An uproar of drama has been brewing since Christmas which I have heard about via the grapevine.

Not only does NO CONTACT help in our healing process, it makes psychopaths and narcissists absolutely manic when they are ignored. Fun fun fun.

I'm seeing the very dramatic NO CONTACT logo in happy colors, uplifting, encouraging, bright (not somber black) ... but I'm the critic, not the artist. Go for it, Dianne! Hey, the AA has bumper stickers ("one Day at a Time"), I think we should have key rings!

And Deb, thanks for your letter about the wedding. I loved the part about all the drama that boiled over with in the ex-family's system just because you wouldn't engage with them! Doesn't THAT tell you where the issues lie?

The weddin' I'm dreadin' will be in September when my daughter's best friend of 20 years marries JERK's son. I plan to be elegant and cool and have a great time. What's that old phrase? "Living well is the best revenge." I plan to be a shining star of joy for all - with not a single word/glance for JERK. The one difference between my situation and yours is that he doesn't have an enemy camp to enfold him and storm up the drama. He's going to be all alone.

Tricky question. On the one hand, when I find myself brooding about the guy, I would welcome a NO CONTACT reminder from my key ring ... you're right, though, when I'm not thinking about him and his fractious ways, I would NOT welcome a little winking reminder from that same key ring!

UPDATE. The legal papers are flying around. My attorney is taking an aggressive approach, while JERK (henceforth to be identified as "JERK-1" or, affectionately, "J-1") and his fellow-psychopath attorney (let's just call him "JERK-2" or "J-2") are sending up a cloud of legal mumbo-jumbo. What's interesting to me is that I have been able, so far, to predict J-1 and J-2's reactions to our settlement proposal. Scary, but true. I'll keep you posted. Looks like this divorce could take until Christmas.

I am new to the forum - 28 years married to a man with a 32 page diagnosis - anti-social. More later on that. In the meantime, this is the best advice ever - the "thought stopping." I thought I was nuts. I spend every second of my life thinking about this miserable, horrifying, surreal, gut wrenching, heart breaking and family destoying situation. I have never, not in 28 years - been able to relax, to watch tv or engage in ordinary recreation - my brain never shuts down, because there is no cure - no solution. I am a professional and as we call it "results driven."

In dealing with Psychopath's - there are no cures - just the dark hole they describe, the dark hole they pull us into to. Although by nature I am an upbeat, loving, gregarious type, I have in recent years faded into his world. I would call it "nothing" - absolute and complete nothing. Hopes, dreams, plans, goals, get-togethers - all gone. For years now, I find myself working as much as possible and then at 5:00 every evening, I collapse. The sad part is that I have fought this, with every cell in my body. I have joined health clubs, allowed myself anything in exchange, bought movie collections and on, and on. All in an effort to keep my feet grounded - to no avail. We are experiencing "Failure to Thrive" - life with someone who does not love. We are human, we love. How can any human deal with this?

I find myself reading about solitary confinement - it feels like this, only with privledges. Most advice - take it a few minutes or an hour at a time. More than that can be overwhelming - mentally, to deal with.

Details to follow - but thank you so much for the reassurance that I am not the only one feeling like this. I fell into this forum tonight - I think I am going to like it!

Psychopath/S - I don't see a spell checker in here - please overlook any typos.

First of all, I really like the idea of a mug with a bird on it! A long time ago, a counselor suggested to me that, although I felt as if I were in a cage, the cage had been created in my own mind. If I could turn around and look, I would see that the cage had only three sides - the back was missing! I could escape!

UPDATE. Divorce final September 16th. The court date was first set for September 30th, and then the Psychopath had it moved back so that he could invite a date to his son's wedding on September 19th! The son and his bride said, "Absolutely not, Dad." He did obey the groom's wishes and did not bring a date, despite the fact he's already dating a woman in Denver [don't know how he met her, but he's been talking to her via phone since last fall when I was in radiation treatment for breast cancer]. I attended this wedding because the bride has been my daughter's best friend since they were in fourth grade orchestra together, and I have been long-time friends with her parents and siblings. In fact, the bride and groom met because of a "family gathering" sponsored by me and the Psychopath-husband 3 years ago. Here's what happened at the wedding:

At the Friday night rehearsal dinner (two days after the judge divorced us), the Psychopath-now-former-husband snuck up behind me, slipped his arm around my waist, planted a kiss on my cheek, and said cheerily (and loudly so that all could hear), "How about a hug and a kiss for old times??" YIKES! As I backed forcefully away and out of his grasp, saying nothing, he repeated, "It's gonna be all right. It's gonna be all right." Weird. Just plain weird. I left shortly after that.

Saturday night, at the wedding reception, I kept a close eye out for him so that there would not be a repeat of the hug-kiss-for-old-times action. During the cocktail reception, I saw him approaching across the courtyard so I sped away in the opposite direction, almost bumping into one or two of the sculptures in the garden in my hurry! When he saw me running away, he started bellowing my name! And not in a "Wait up!" kinda of voice but in a "Get back here!" kind of voice. It was really really creepy for me. It felt like he was attempting to rope me in again with the sheer power of his voice.

Buffet dinner was shortly after that - followed by toasts to the newly married couple. As father of the groom, the Psychopath offered a toast to the two dead grandmothers, and then he said, "Don't take love lightly. We all have - but don't do it. Don't take love lightly" to the bride and groom. A dreary toast. I left shortly thereafter.

NOW I AM TOTALLY DONE WITH HIM - the divorce is over and this family wedding is finished. I've taken him off all my accounts and am changing my name. Whew! No there's no further need for any contact at all. NO CONTACT really kicks in now.

What's amazing, interesting and a little frightening to me is the pull he still has on me - my son told me that his bellowing at the wedding reception wasn't that bad, that it wasn't like people were turning and staring at us - but it sure felt that way to me. It felt like he was yelling inside my head! Now, I did resist and did keep the upper hand all through the wedding festivities - I know in my rational mind that he has no hold over me any longer - the financial affairs are separated - the legal affairs are separated - and I know that his two sons respect and love me - all that's fine and dandy. But his voice, his presence, still scares me - or maybe scares me MORE now that I know what a manipulator he is and how badly he cornered me for 5 years. I suppose that will ease over time.

One question remains in my mind. One the one hand, I feel an ethical responsibility to call up Ms. Denver and give her a warning about the Psychopath. Hell, I have her phone number because it [and others!]was all over the cell phone bills October-March. On the other hand, I fear that it would be breaking the NO CONTACT rule - that as soon as she got off the phone to me, she'd call him and tell him what his crazy ex-wife told her because of course, for the moment, she's probably enamored of him and believes all he says. That would give him an opportunity to slander me for attempting to break up his new relationship and strut around. So, my decision is NOT to warn her. If she ever calls me for information, I'll give it to her with both barrels flashing, but I'm not going to initiate the contact. I sure do feel for her, however.

Maybe somehow we could anonymously e-mail her the link to this forum????

Thanks for listening. It's just so crazy carrying all this around in my head - there are so few people I can really talk to about Psychopaths - most people look at me like I'm crazy when I describe his behavior. I keep saying, you just can't understand it until you've met up with one face-to-face. I saw our former marriage counselor in the Post Office the other day - I don't know whether he continues to see her (he saw her a couple of times in April-May, right after I moved out), but I could tell by the look on her face that she still believes that he's a good guy who just needs a little counseling, and that I am the crazy one. Oh, well. She'll figure it out - or she won't.

Again, thanks for listening to my thoughts. I appreciate you being there!

You're the one who FEELS crazy, but you're not the one who IS crazy. Crazy-making. Gaslighting. Mirroring. All "techniques" used by Psychopaths to control you. Sounds like you, too, have been cornered/controlled for waaaay too long. I hope you read through this blog and find reassurances that YOU ARE NOT ALONE. You are not making this stuff up.

It's good to see you back and still as positive as ever. It's always a pleasure to hear how you keep moving forward despite the obstacles thrown in your path. I think a family wedding would be the worst situation I could imagine being in with the person you do not want to be anywhere near.

I can see you would once again have to subjugate your own feelings for the benefit of everyone else.....one of the things you have worked so hard to stop doing. Maybe all those years of practice get you through that?How sickening he put on a show for the audience, so typical of someone like him using the speech to make it about himself. I can just imagine what it must have felt like to hear his voice 'commanding' you but you did it.....you recognised and rationlised what as happening so you could deal with it.

I suppose you can now add this huge step to your rise above all of this and feel proud of yourself.

It is very normal to want to help others but I'm pleased you decided against warning your ex's latest victim. She will probably still be in denial and as you say she would have 'confirmation' of the things he told her about you. As you found out for yourself, you have to come to your own conclusions and what decisions to make when you come out of the fog. She will have to find out that she is a victim before she wants to change anything and she may very well end up posting on this forum looking for support to help her do that.Even though you can't help this woman (yet) there are others here that would benefit hugely from your help.

There is nothing like talking to someone who had first hand experience to give others confidence that it is possible to have life after a disastrous relationship. Many people seem to think they can't survive on their own and that any relationship is better than being on their own. The sad thing is a relationship with a psychopath is exactly that, being isolated from everyone especially those who care about about them. A psychopath does not have a reciprocal relationship with anyone.

I found it a huge relief not to have to talk about psychopathy with people who have no experience, they just don't get it and assume that victims are exaggerating or being dramatic.

Thank you for spending your time with us and helping others to see the possibility that they can do what you have done. I like the thought of being in a cage without a back on it, what a great way of looking at what is trapping you. The exit is obvious if you look around you.

I am new to this forum. I have never been on one before. I am wondering if you had children involved in the divorce. I have just discovered what I am married to and I'm both relieved and terrified of what I have learned. I don't need to share all the gory details except to tell you that he's a 'white collar' psychopath and VERY clever and charming, humble, and generous with money to those that need it - but then there's the real story. We have a 5 year old daughter and he's already started manipulating her and is causing serious emotional damage. He has extreme entitlement tendancies - I am afraid that the courts will believe his monologue and give him his share of custody or worse... that he will somehow try to convince them that I am the problem and give him full costody. What can I do? How do I get us both out of there safely? How do I prove he's a psychopath? Please help.

Thank you for your response. I will try to answer your questions - I started the research because of two things: 1) a few months ago I started talking to my Mom about my situation. I hadn't done this before because he convinced me to keep 'our business' in the marriage and others didn't need to know 'our business'.

I mistakenly thought this was just part of being married. She listened to me and was concerned. a few weeks later she called me when I was on my way to an appointment - she said it was urgent and couldn't wait. I listened and she said as she was cleaning a word popped into her head and she looked it up and found the symptoms for narcisist. The list of over 40 behaviors was startling as they all fit his personality.

Before this I had nothing to go on to understand how to talk to him, my communication style wasn't working. A couple of months later I told him I wanted a divorce. We talked for hours upon hours and it seemed he was very concerned and promised to change, to stop drinking, and to stop yelling at me - I couldn't even ask to stop at the ATM without his screaming at me the whole day because of it - I was obviously still not totally aware of what the problem was. I told him I wouldn't leave. I thought it could be worked out.

A few months went by and I was starting to trust him again. Then he showed up drunk after he promised to quit. I was shocked and mad I told him he betrayed my trust...etc, etc.....then the old personality returned, he was yelling at me again irrationally over and over, he emotionally abused our daughter by telling her they were going to play a game together - he was going to discipline her for swinging her water bottle around, he told her to stand still while he swung the bottle around in front of her face and told her he was going to hit her with it, by this time she realized this wasn't a game and she ran/walked away and said no! in a scared voice. He was becoming more and more irrational - he drank again at home, he told me he'd drink behind my back, obviously he made good on that.

Later I asked him about it and he told me I was insane and that my mind was playing tricks on me, after I SMELLED it on his breath and told him so. He has always prided himself for not being a liar - well this was a blatant lie and he was caught. -

I started seeing a therapist, she listened for about 5 minutes and said he sounds like a psychopath. I looked it up on the internet and found many many more similarities in his personality and realized there is no cure for this and that everything I had tried was not only not going to work but was being used by him to 'get inside' my head so he could further use it to manipulate me. I have now started to take off my blinders and be more observant of his behavior and have become suspicious that he is somehow recording me so he could listen to my private conversations with my Mom, brother, dad, friend, whoever. I have said things to them that I haven't said to him and he somehow repeats parts of it to me in the form of a question, some of the phrases I used he doesn't use and he repeated it incorrectly.

I have since found that he hides alcohol in the yard and says he has stopped drinking. He tries to be very carefull about getting caught - he watches cops and those murder investigation documentaries and sometimes makes comments on how the person could have done things differently to not get caught - I've asked him who's side he's on anyway (back when I thought he was normal). I have found pictures of gruesome deaths stashed in his belongings from what appears to be the 50's?, why does a person have such pictures - these are actually slides not pictures - I don't know where they came from.

He is an artist and I think he would say he has them under the guise of having them as a resource for art subjects. Seems twisted to me. - these things and many more are what make me believe he's a 'Psychopath' - and what makes me terrified to just divorce him and hope the courts et al, don't give him custody of any kind - I am afraid of the courts and the people that are a part of that system as they don't know what I know, and they don't know me either.

What can I do to make sure the actual TRUTH is discovered?

Thank you, I am looking forward to hearing from you and others that have 'been there' and got out.

My heart goes out to you. You are in a terrible situation, no doubt about it. Listen to all the advice Jan gave you - she knows.

What I would say to you is this. And you already know this.(1) Stop trying to talk to him. Forget trying to reason with him. Don't tell him any of your thoughts/plans. He will only use them against you.

(2) Document all you can. Those slides of "gruesome deaths" gave me the creeps - that is NOT normal! Artist, my ass.

(3) GET OUT. Your daughter, too. Remember the NO CONTACT rule. Easy for me to say, as my adult children were not involved in my late-in-life menopausal marriage to a psychopath. I can't offer you specific advice on how to best take care of your daughter, except to document all that you can.

It will be a tough fight but NOT an impossible one. Remember, your counselor identified him as a Psychopath within minutes! My attorney did the very same thing during my first meeting with him. Yes, it's true that people who have not had any experience with Psychopaths are clueless about their lies/manipulations. But there ARE attorneys and judges and counselors that know very well who/what these people are. Get them on your side.

And keep remembering, YOU ARE NOT CRAZY. He's the psychopath (and the drunkard) here, not you. And not your daughter.

Big big hugs and lots of prayers. Getting out and setting up your new life with your daughter (and your Mom-she sounds like a winner!) will be difficult, but it will be finished in good time. You can do it. I know you can.

Keep writing. It helps to send it out there to those of us who have been there.

Interesting that you pointed out that I stomped down my own feelings for the benefit of others. You're right, I have been doing that all my life,long before I met up with Psychopath-ex-husband. My Mom was a flaming narcissist-everyone in the family took second place to her wants/needs.

In my two marriages, I found myself not speaking up about what I wanted - hell, I didn't even KNOW what I wanted a good bit of the time. After my first divorce ten years ago, I spent a lot of time pondering what I wanted for simple things like meals. Before I would read over the menu, I would close my eyes and think, "Now, what do I want to eat?" Good training. I am working on that again these days. What does Melissa want? I keep thinking that it shouldn't be as difficult a question as it is!

A year ago at this time, i was dealing with an unfaithful/spendthrift/lying husband, the death of my mother, and breast cancer - lots of drama. Nowadays, it's pretty peaceful around here. Curiously I'm finding that to be weird, not restful. I keep wanting to DO SOMETHING. But I'm worried about latching onto something just to fill the void. I have promised myself that I will continue to make no decisions (no new car, no new house, no new job) until at least 2010.

Thanks so very much for all that you do on this forum. You write with a clear head and a compassionate heart, and I know that you help folks.Thanks.

If your Prince Charming has been married before, why not call up the ex-wife to hear her side of the story? You might learn something. You might learn that his stories about her are right on the money, she IS the "screaming b**** from hell." Or, you might find out that he's been feeding you a long string of lies/misrepresentations/half-truths. COUld be pretty interesting.

If I EVER find myself seriously interested in another fellow, I am certainly gonna pick up that phone and give her (them) a call!

Thank you Melissa for your post. I appreciate the information and I will use it to my best ability. I am trying to gain the strength to reach out more, but I am afraid of contacting agencies just yet as they will inform him of what I am doing and will undoubtedly make things much worse while I am planning my escape.

Last night he said he wanted to talk. He started by asking me how I thought the park went to day (brief background for you; my daughter's friends from her prior school had a get together for all the kids since a lot of them are now at different schools. They all grew up together since they were babies at the daycare and are like family to eachother. It was mostly moms and kids. I mentioned that to him when he said he'd be going too, so that he was aware that there were no other men there for him to talk to so he'd probably be bored. We ended up taking separate cars. He never attends this type of event (there used to be a lot of birthday parties). His 'vibe' was one of a pushy type kind of 'I know you don't want me there, so I'm going anyway'. Later at the park he said to me that he pictured this event being a bunch of 'lesbian man haters' getting together to bash men so that's why he came. I was disgusted. Where did he get such an idea. He left early.) So back to his question about how the park went. I said it went fine the kids all had a great time. He said he tried to give me a hug when he left but that I was cold. I said I didn't notice that anything went wrong. He was looking for something to blame me for and was acting like the hurt victim.

And so starts his monologue. I have taken the silent approach and it seems to be working accept that he is noticing that I'm not giving him any new 'material' to work with. So I start to repeat the things I've said before about his behavior. I'll get about 5-10 words out and he interupts me and detrails my input. I point out that's what he's done, and then he tells me to stop yelling at him and he says "wait a minute" I need to defend myself (meaning him). Then he changed into the "motivational speaker" personality and he says he's trying to pull me back out of my 'funk' (this is what he calls my quiet moods when I'm not behaving as if we're the perfect happy couple) - I said that I'm being honest with him about my feelings because I'm not pretending that everything is good between us. He asked me if my feelings are christian and Godly. - it feels like he's using God to get me to 'ok' his behavior and "move on" as he says.

This is the short version of about a two hour monologue so you're missing some of the details but the point of my telling you this is that he said he realizes that what I want is a divorce and that he is not going to agree to that and if I do divorce him that he is going to get his 50% of our daughter.

He says he's not going to quit on me. He's not giving up. He wants us to go to church together and then go on a date afterward so we can have some 'us' time. I told him I don't want to go on a date with him and he won't hear it. He said it's my chance to 'pick the movie I want' and we can do what I want. . He told me I was being childish by saying I don't want to go on the date. Last week when he said he wanted a date and asked me when we're going to go out, I was quiet and said nothing and he said next Saturday and I'll even let you pay for my movie ticket.

I do know I have to get us out, but as I've said before, he is FANTASTICLY good at sounding like a prize. After listening to his motivational speach last night, I can understand why I was fooled for so many years.

By the way, during his monologue he mentioned another phrase I've said only to my dad which was a few months ago and only in my car. So if he's been listening in on all of my conversations for that long, he already knows what I've said to my mom about my fears of his personality and the documentation etc. Which could be why I'm now hearing him accuse me of being bi-polar and insane.

Another thing you should know. The birthday parties and get togethers are ok for us to attend because it helps him keep up the appearance of being the perfect family; and because the relationships are kept at arms length. If I were to start getting closer with any one of them, he would find something wrong with them and create an excuse for not continuting the friendship. He would say they are bad somehow. - It wouldn't matter if it were Mother Theresa, he could create a reason why they were bad or evil in some way, enough to cause us to end the friendship. So while he was at the park, I didn't engage in any conversations with the moms, but stayed right on top of my daughter (not giving her space to play with the other kids). When he left, that changed. I gave her space, and all the moms worked together to keep an eye on the kids. None of them know any of the issues I've talked about here and none of us 'man bash'.

Thank you SO MUCH for this forum and for taking the time to read through this mess. I feel like I am one step closer to getting out. I just need enough proof of his behavior that can't be explained away so that I can get a restraining order when I leave. I'll have to keep her out of school during that process so timing is everything. If I don't then he is likely to take her from school and keep her from me. I don't want her to be in the middle of a tug-of-war. I struggle with that every minute of everyday. Sometimes I think that I should just leave on the basis of his alcoholism and stop trying to prove everything else. But I worry that that won't be enough. What do you think? I think I can prove at least that since he's been to the doctor for pain in his gut caused by his drinking and his weight. Maybe I can get his medical records to prove he has this problem. What I have a problem getting is photo's and video of him when he's drunk. He is too aware that it can be used as evidence and won't let me take his picture and if I do, he would delete or destroy it. But I do have photo's of the alcohol he has stashed, but that doesn't prove it's his. He could say it's mine and we'd be in a he said she said.

A friend told me that these guys have only three personas: RESCUER. ABUSER. VICTIM. I haven't seen this in anything written, but it is an interesting way to view their behavior. First, he acts as the RESCUER which feels wonderful to us - loving, caring, all that. Then he starts in with the ABUSER stuff, and when you accuse him, he slips into VICTIM mode. Then it starts all over again.

I appreciate that you have experimented with the silent approach - "Silence is often the best answer." Keep it up.

I also think it's really really creepy that you think he's been listening to your private conversations! But it doesn't surprise that he takes excerpts out of them to use against you.

Try to keep in mind that he lies, all the time. Everything he says/does is to assert his power over you, to control you. The "motivational speaker approach" is just a variation on the RESCUER mode.

Courage, dear. Did you read what I wrote earlier about the three-sided birdcage? A counselor told me once that feeling trapped is like being in a three-sided birdcage = looking to the front, it looks like I'm caged in. But if I can just crane my neck around to the back, I could see that there IS an escape route. You, too, can escape. I actually hung up a bottomless birdcage in my office to remind me while I was figuring out how to get out.

It will take courage and planning and a clear hear. And a clear understanding that he lies all the time. And that he doesn't love you, can't love you. Doesn't love your daughter either, can't. He's an empty shell.

big big hugs - keep talking. And try to find someone you can talk to in person that can help you legally - an attorney? women's shelter administrator?

Hi, would your mom help shelter you while going through all of this. I know of a victim who through great determination was able to get supervised visits with their daughter. She has devoted her life to get to that point. Children do have a right for their own attorney from what I understand.

Track all the community property, make sure he hasn't forged the deed to your home and been stashing money.

How long after you met him did you marry?

Try hiding one of those nanny cams in the area where he usually has his drunken, cruel rages. They are cheap and I would agree with Jan to put as many around the house including the entrance to show the progression. Check to see what the laws are in your state as far as recording phone calls. There is a site online that lists the states who permit it. I am not sure if it is legal to record outgoing calls. Check everywhere including making sure he doesn't have a life insurance for you. Look at the cell phone records, being a detective can help present your case. You might find a girlfriend or two buried in those records.

I would stop trying to defend youself by reminding him of what a louse he is. I assume he is still living in the home with you and your daughter?

Your mom sounds terrific, can she handle the challenge and take in your daughter to not have her witness the madness? An attorney can help you navigate these tricky waters.

Remember one thing when you are presenting your case, stay calm, otherwise you will appear unstable and he will be cool as can be.

When looking for an attorney ask for an interview, most will give you a short interview. Also use your fingers to do the walking and call around and ask first if they know about dealing with Psychopaths. What the heck I would even call Gloria Alred (sic) you never know who will take on your case, preferably pro bono. A couple of times I called my favorite authors and was able to speak to them and schedule a luncheon when they were in town. My frieds were shocked and asked how I did it and I said I picked up the phone.

Also I would get your daughter with someone/ therapist or Psychologist who knows about Psychopath's to start the documentation process.

I've finally found the inner stuff to pack up and move out with our 5 1/2 year old daughter. We've had no contact for over a week, and it's been heavenly. I was able to get a restraining order and full temporary custody. My daughter has not once asked about him, has not verbally wondered where he is, or when she'll see him, or that she even misses him. I believe that speaks volumns about whether or not I made the right decision.

He is a teacher and the restraining order will cause him to lose the job he loves and that gives him all the admiration he craves- should this also be taken away, I will no doubt become his target (if not already) - and my daughter is right in the middle. I only wanted the restraining order to keep him away from us, I had no idea that it would affect his job until it was issued. I fear that if he's not already there, that this will most certainly push him over the edge. He has been amazingly quiet which is terrifying in itself. I'm having to attend school with her (thank goodness my employer is 100% behind me and supports me with whatever I need) just to have an extra set of eyes around, but I can't do that forever. I really don't want to have to change schools as she's been attending the same school since she was 4 months old and is now in kindergarten. She's developed a strong bond with her friends and starting her over elsewhere would be devistating for her. I am disgusted that he's the one with the problem but we're the ones that have to hide, and stay away from our normal places, friends, and family! It just isn't right! I can't even go to or volunteer at my church anymore for fear he will be there (not to worship but just to claim the territory because he knows I love it there).

The restraining order hearing is next week (the mediator hearing is next, then the divorce case)... where the judge will decide whether or not to keep the order in place and for how long. He seems to be abiding by it but only so that he can play the victim role to the hilt in court. The last time he had a monologue for me, he tried to convince me that I'm the crazy one. He kept repeating over and over and over that he thinks I'm psycologically imbalanced in the head, then he'd say 'think about it!'. then he took our daughter out of her own bed while she was sleeping and made her watch a sitcom meant for adults and locked his bedroom door. I had moved out of the master bedroom the week before because he never turns off the tv and I can't sleep. Every night I ask him to turn it off and he never will, so I moved out. His locking his bedroom door, keeping me out while she was in there with him, was the final straw, I moved us out the next morning while he was at work.

I'm hoping in the end that all the notes I took will be enough to finally be rid of him. They are the only thing I have that even comes close to anything that backs up my side of the story. I can only pray that others have the ability to see through him and realize he is not what he says he is. Am I being completely unrealistic? What advice do you have for me at this point? Thank you, Helpout.

Hi, helpout, this is truly great news. I wonder how the school would find out, if they don't get notified your peace might extend since he will know he is on thin ice if they do.

You are being realistic there is no good to come being with a Psychopath. How long has he been a teacher and has he relied on you for $?

Hold your head high, you will be wasting your time to talk about him to others, except us or a close friend. Don't let any gossip from him get a rise out of you. In the end your true friends will either stick around or come back around. Many times that is one of the toughest situations, you wil see who your true friends through this. You could try to convince others until the cows come home and other people will do what they want, either listening to his lies etc. Come up with a standard avoidance line, like, well things didn't work out and now I must focus on my child, thank you for asking, excuse me but I something I have to do, end of comment.

wow yours sounds just like my soon ex husband and what im going through, he trys to make me look like Im crazy and is using it in court to try and take my daughter away in a week, and like hes the victom. he has witnesses on his side, even got my 17yr old on his side when she was vulnerable after she moved out and she hated him having nothing to do with him. he has been extra sweet to her. Because mom wont let her do whatever she wants with drinking, sex, and all. I hope things go well for you. I hope he dont get my daughter. so far he has won every time. this is my last chance in court

One of the first things I did when I realized who I was dealing with was to change all the passswords to my computers and e-mail accounts.

I also started writing all the facts related to serious behavior problems, dates, quotes, so I'd have them if needed. He refused to stay overnight w/ our teenage son (so he could be w/ the new woman)and I saved the e-mail in which he tries to justify this; I also noted the dates of the 4 times in almost 5 months he did stay overnight w/ our son-our state determines the amount of support the non custodial parent pays, in part, based on number of overnights.....

When it became clear to me that my lawyer was not in any way getting the degree of his dishonesty, letting him get away w/ stuff, not taking on his lawyer, being condescending to me ("Have you considered going into therapy"), clearly buying into his version of reality, etc. etc. I fired her and hsve found a new one who is sharp, understands about personality disorders and beleives me, what a difference. No more good girl to my own disadvantage.

I alos printed out a number of incriminatng checks etc. from his checking account, requested copies of our joint credit card statments going back a year (he used to pay that bill and throw it away...)so now I have a lot of evidene about his cheating and dishonesty-a $400 electronic toy he charged to the family account days before he told me he wanted a divorce-had found a new target, lucky me.

Hi, Helpout - I was delighted to find your post from last fall. Good for you for getting yourself and your daughter out of the house!!! How goes it now? I certainly hope you have found some savvy people (lawyer, judge) to understand what/who you are up against and help you out.

And how's your daughter? I would like to say that (1) kids are pretty resilient, and (2) it might be better to move her to a new school and start over again in a safe place than to keep her in the same school and deal daily with the Psychopath. Just a thought - I don't really know your situation, of course, but it might be better to keep her safe in a new place. I know it's annoying that WE have to be the ones to adjust to our weirdo husband's problems, but hey, sometimes that's the way it is.

But, I will also say this. I had to make the same decision to stay/leave this very small town. I decided to stay, and it's been a good thing. If I had moved away last year, I would have carried with me the idea that he was a potent bad guy ... in staying, I have watched his power drain away. He no longer has the least bit of power over me. And that feels good. It also appears that he has lost influence over a lot of people. I have heard that some folks have actively shunned him, which I never expected - he's such a glad-hander, "friendly" guy. But now that his cover has been blown, he's living a very different life.

So, keep that in mind. Often it seems that once the Psychopath's attention is diverted from you to his newest victim, he just ain't so scary any more.

Holiday Help ideas wanted. Holidays can be stressful times with a Psychopath.How do you cope with a Psychopath during Holidays?I use avoidance of family, people,places-of Psychopath.I use excuses. I get blamed for being selfish, breaking with,lacking family tradition..I feel pressured to keep the peace,visit or allow visits. I justify my reasons not to engage with Psychopath and family.It's very complicated,lonely for my family,myself.I feel judgmental,self righteous towards the Psychopath and family.I hurry through,shorten visits-coping is difficult.Any ideas, coping suggestions appreciated.

I have learned, the hard way, that as long as I felt Anything for him he was in it to win it. POsitive feeling sor negative feelings didnt matter to him, he just wanted me hookedf any way he could get. It wasnt until I realized that INDIFFERENCE is what he couldnt figure out. It makes him nuts and he pulls out ALL his tricks that have worked in the past then tries new tricks. As long as I remain INDIFFERENT he has no hold on me and he will realize his power over me is lost and therefore, eventually, go away.

I prayed often that God would Bind up all that is vulnerable of my femininity to give me strength to overcome his power. The indifference is my power over him-Thank you God!

You said "It's ironic that while with Ps, we stop doing the very things that can help alleviate the effects of their poison".

I honestly think that the reason we do that is out of self-preservation. Psychopaths hone in on the things we love so they can corrupt them in some way to use them to divide us against ourselves. I think sometimes it comes down to either willingly walking away from the things we enjoy or being turned against them ourselves and losing them forever. My ex could actually have turned me against the very music that I love and I think that would have made him very happy because I would have lost a part of me in the process. But instead I let it go so he no longer had that target.

In a backwards kind of way it is like that saying "If you love something, let it go...if it comes back to you it is really yours and if it doesn't come back it was never yours to begin with" (HA HA, probably terribly misquoted, but you get the idea).

For me, living with my ex was like being in some horrid hostage situation for 20 years. Psychologically, I was held in a little room under a bare lightbulb while someone tried desperately to get the information out of me that he wanted to know. Then one at a time, things that were important to me were brought in and I was told that I had to give up my information or this very important thing would be destroyed. A choice. Looking back, I can see how I just pretended that the important thing was not so important. Once he believed that, he quit trying to use that particular thing to break me and hurried on to find another.

Subconsciously I knew that someday I would get out of that little room and then I could reclaim all those important things. Because I had willingly given them up and made them seem unimportant, they were not destroyed.

I think that is why we give up the things we love. When you are with a Psychopath, it is either give it up or have it torn away and destroyed. As we go about picking those things up again, maybe we should congratulate ourselves that we outmaneuvered our Psychopaths by doing it the way we did.

I know this is an old post, but this is exactly the feeling I lived with every day while growing up and even now when I have too much contact with my mother. She is not a Psychopath but a narcissist with sadistic tendencies. Maybe it's the sadistic tendencies that create such a similarity here. I've tried and tried to explain this to others but they usually can't relate to it. And here it is, explained perfectly!

It's a sense of carefully hiding what you care about so as not to have it torn away and destroyed, knowing that they are always on the watch to find it....to me, it seems a way of hiding the inner Self to protect it. Since I was raised like this, just by nature I hid the things I cared about from the Psychopaths in my life. I felt I must hide them from everyone else too, which made it harder to recover, I think. I couldn't pick them up again very easily. Only now after much exploration am I finally starting to be "myself" without fear.

As for coping, time was the only way for me. I breathed such a sigh of relief when ten years had passed after the abuse. It was a wonderful feeling that I didn't even know I was waiting for - I could put ten years between that terrible time and the present.

These days my commitment is to preventing it from ever happening again.

I was lucky enough to deal with this person online and for only a few months. God, I really feel for anyone who had to put up with years of it and in person... on a daily basis. I have no words... just respect for anyone who survives it.

I thought it was 6 months... but in total we were only close for four. Wow, it felt like so much longer.... I told him to stop contacting me and avoided his contacting me since about a month and a half ago. I've moved through denial/ignoring it, and anger (and fear)... I never realised the phases i've been through over the course of the past few months. I felt like I didn't feel hurt... but now i'm suddenly being hit with all sorts of feelings... grieving our relationship and my feelings towards him... sadness, loss of trust in myself. It's like you get out of tough survivor mode; full of confidence to stand up for yourself... and then when the immediate crisis is over, the adrenaline dies down and you're left in a mess. It hasn't been bad for me (I was not badly abused), but I can't quit ruminating over it. He didn't even physically or emotionally abuse me directly (until the end when I challenged him), but it really unsettles me that I had no idea what was truly going through his mind, and that I didn't see reality clearly. It's like it's suddenly hitting me that it may all have been a lie... I keep challenging my reality and questioning what the hell he was doing. All that time I spent with him, was a lie.

Putting back the pieces to your reality is really hard. I had avoided looking over the records of emails and photos, but i've read putting the pieces of your reality back together is important. To stop that anxious bloody voice that keeps compelling me to reconsider what happened, that I was the one who was mean and manipulative and deceitful and paranoid. It's easy to succumb to paranoia on the internet, and easy to have anyone dictate or change the reality of something because it's not always in plain sight.

I feel stupid and foolish and like I was projecting things onto him. Then I remember I spent most of my university semesters fretting and preoccupied by his health to focus on my own life. And forget about that and rinse and repeat my thoughts.

Since I am new to this whole arena, I want to run through some thoughts to make sure that I'm getting this right. I have been obsessing with wanting to know what my sister (I will call her my spiritual vampire because she latches on and sucks the spirit out of me)is doing so that I can be one step ahead of her. After continuous admonishing by my husband, I can't seem to let go of the need to protect my family and I from her. She is devious and evil. What's worse is that she calls herself a Christian. I find it morally reprehensible for her to quote scriptures and offer to pray for people 24/7 and then do the things that she does when she thinks no one is looking. It's embarrassing and makes me feel angry for all of the people that are falling for this charade. I am finally getting it that I don't have to rescue everyone. I need only look after myself and my family, as others have told me in not so many words that I was the one with the problem and that I should get counselling for saying those things because my sister is a Godly, kind person who never gossips or says anything bad to anyone. Um. Ya.

I have gone off topic abit but my question is this: How do I stop obsessing? How do I stop looking for vindication and validation? I have tried and then I go back and cannot seem to let go. I want so much for her to be stopped (caught? exposed?) by someone. I have blocked her from seeing my Facebook through other people's accounts that have me on their list. I don't want to see anything that she posts because it makes me angry and yet I want to know every detail, just waiting for her to fall. That's an awful way to feel and I know it isn't paramount to my getting closure in all of this. Do I cut her off entirely, even as far as deleting any photos, ripping up physical copies of photos... every piece of evidence that I've even known her? It is difficult to part with photos from a very young age. Maybe I'm pretending that we were happy as children although I know that I wasn't. I don't even like looking at photos of myself as a child for more than a minute.

My sister's daughter (I don't call her neice because she and her brother have basically disowned me because of the lies their patho-mother has told them their whole lives) is expecting a baby any day. When I visit my mom, I will have to see photos plastered all over of the newest little "greed bucket" who will be flourishing under the teachings of my sister, Miss 'gimme hands'. She has her hands all over mom's money, which is easy to give away when it isn't her own. The daughter has been raised having everything handed to her. They are all sickenly selfish and my mom caters to their every need.

Why don't I just come out and say that I hate them? I have never in my life hated anyone. I don't want to. This is the closest that I've ever come but I still love them because they are "family". I can't wrap my head around how family does this to other family. We struggle and the others get things handed to them on a silver platter. It isn't fair. If I was a mean person this would all make sense.

Thank you for letting me vent. The ability to even express myself without being chastised is helping me. No one here is telling me that I am a Christian and I am just supposed to forgive and let these people carry on as if nothing ever happened. I am not a door mat. You also aren't telling me it's all in my head and I should just be nice and not dwell in the past (ie: let's get away with what we have done and never be accountable for any of it). Lastly, thank you for making this a safe place to say what I need to say, trusting that I will be respected and believed. I am writing out my feelings about my life and keeping it on my computer. It helps to look at my thoughts in words. Even when some parts seem unfamiliar or unbelievable even to me, I know that I wrote it. I believe me. I am getting better at being nicer to myself a little at a time.

BeautyForAshes - if you are dealing with a psychopathic persona, you are not obsessing:)Of course everyone will see it this way, because they are blinded by the "charm" and beautiful words.

Reality sucks and the truth is always ugly in these cases, that's why no one wants to believe it. Even when you've seen evidence it's still hard. I know I need to remind myself of the truth all the time. At first it was almost impossible for me to keep the "reasoning" for longer than a few minutes/hours. But with time you gain perspective, and it all becomes clear. That gives you the strength and the power over your mind.

I don't want to be nosy but what does she do to you, you haven't mentioned specifically, maybe we can help somehow.

BeautyForAshes - if you are dealing with a psychopathic persona, you are not obsessing:)Of course everyone will see it this way, because they are blinded by the "charm" and beautiful words.

Reality sucks and the truth is always ugly in these cases, that's why no one wants to believe it. Even when you've seen evidence it's still hard. I know I need to remind myself of the truth all the time. At first it was almost impossible for me to keep the "reasoning" for longer than a few minutes/hours. But with time you gain perspective, and it all becomes clear. That gives you the strength and the power over your mind.

I don't want to be nosy but what does she do to you, you haven't mentioned specifically, maybe we can help somehow.

Specifically, since I was little (I am the youngest of 3), my sister Karen* has regarded me being spoiled. As we grew older, she became jealous of my looks, abilities, and my boyfriends which she made fun of often. When I was 16, my boyfriend (now husband) Jeff* bought me a little trinket every time that he took the 32 mile round trip to see me. Karen would sneer and say "Oh? ......what did you do to get THAT? Fart?!!". She mocked me to my face, behind my back and competed with everything that I did.

Jeff drove a newer Trans Am when I met him. Months later, we were told by Karen's boyfriend Matt* that he "won" a Camaro (coincidentally the car was the same colour and year as Jeff’s Trans Am) in a bet with his boss. If Jeff bought something, Karen and Matt had to have it too. They put themselves in debt continually. It was stupid and annoying.

Matt worked for awhile in a towing company. Karen went with him while he towed illegally parked cars. She showed Jeff things that they took out of car’s glove box or trunk and kept. Jeff scolded her, telling her that she couldn't do that and that those things belonged to the car owners. She disagreed and said they were allowed to keep anything that they found in the cars.

When I was 21, Jeff and I had the first of a series of car accidents. There seemed to be a bull’s eye on us. We both had whiplash injuries. I had to quit my job and stay home to recuperate. My dad was a workaholic and when he wasn't at his daytime job, he would do yard work until dark every night. He didn't let any of us sit around either. We lived on 10 acres of land and had to plant trees, dig weeds, paint and whatever else he could find for us so that we didn't sit around 'getting fat'. I was unable to do much because of my injuries. Dad told me that I was making up my injuries to get out of helping. I had strict rules for when I was able to see Jeff. I wasn't allowed to talk with him on the phone for more than 10 minutes without Dad freaking out on me. One day I was hiding in the basement talking to my friend from school when my dad came downstairs. He assumed that I was talking to Jeff and started yelling at me. I was so embarrassed that I got off the phone right away. That was my breaking point. I couldn't live there anymore. I called my boyfriend at work, and asked him to come get me that night. Since I vowed never to live with anyone before marriage, I called then only person that I knew would help. Karen agreed to let me stay with her and Matt. Circumstances forced me to leave her house after only 2 weeks. I had no where else to go, so I moved in with Jeff and his sister. My things were still at Karen’s. I came back to check for mail and pick up a change of clothes as needed during the week.

After my insurance cheque from my accident was a week late, I called them. They said it was sent out and suggested that maybe it had been stolen. I called Karen to ask if she had ever had mail stolen. She said "no".

Around the same time, Matt told us that his friend Brett* (fresh out of jail for child molesting) came over every morning. They skipped school classes. Matt also said that he and Brett drove to the country to visit a friend. They had a girl from their class hanging around with them.

I was sent a copy of my signed and cashed cheque from the insurance company. The signature was so close to my own that I felt weak and my heart was pounding. The cheque was stamped on the back with a store name and was cashed in a small town that we’d never heard of. When we looked at a map, we found that the town was on the way to where Matt said that he and his friends visited. It came to me that copies of my signed insurance papers were in the drawer in the room I was using at Karen's house. Someone went through my belongings and found them.

Investigators made me sign my name on 20 pages. I was frustrated and embarrassed at having to do writing tests to prove that I didn’t cash my own cheque! I felt like a criminal. After this, I got all of my things out of Karen's house.

Karen and Matt moved not long after. She called one day to invite us to see their new place. I wanted to see the 'presents' Matt had gotten her for myself. Jeff and I sat with her in her living room as she named off all of the things that Matt had bought. She seemed proud as she told us how much each item cost: a used truck cap that cost __, a 10 kt gold opal ring that she had always wanted that cost ___, a used 10 speed bike...etc. I was doing the mental math and commented on how her new gifts totalled around $150 and that my cheque was for $152. She didn't answer me and continued to play dumb. When Karen gave us a tour of the house, Jeff and I saw Matt ducking under the blankets and pretending to be asleep. He stayed in their bedroom the whole time that we were visiting.

Karen has never admitted to nor apologized for Matt's stealing. My brother Aaron* lived with them off and on. Aaron witnessed Matt’s stealing and told to us that Matt had cut the neighbours' window screen and got into their house. One morning Matt was mad because he couldn't find his tool box. Karen demanded "have you seen Matt's tool box?!". My brother shrugged, said “no” and continued eating his breakfast. Karen got angry and said "WELL IT'S MISSING!". Aaron asked her "What's the difference? It's stolen anyway". Karen retorted "Well, that's not the point!".

I'm told by a reliable source that Karen often drove relatives (very well known for stealing) to drop off stolen merchandise. She wrote a letter to me in 1990 stating "I am not responsible and will not held accountable for anything I do". She's proven that time and time again, as no one confronts her but me. I wrote to Karen to tell her what I thought about her and Matt and I called him a thief. Matt phoned me shortly after and told me off. He responded by saying "I may be a thief, but one thing I don't do is steal from family!" He knew he stole, Karen knew it, Aaron knew it, --even my parents knew it...but how dare I even suggest such a thing! Dad bought building materials stolen by Matt from a nearby school ground. No questions were asked. He knew Matt stole it. Dad stole things himself and he and mom bought “hot” things from relatives as I was growing up. If he saw anything lying around and he thought no one was using it, Dad took it.

A letter from Karen states that she has always hated my Dad and only visited for Mom's sake. She also states she had to make up for my brother and I not running to our parents' house every week. (martyr syndrome --she is expecting a big pay off for one day).

She always told people that Jeff was a show off and that he thought that he was better than everyone else. Mom and dad frequently had house parties. In one of her many drunken stupors, I watched as Karen sat on Jeff's lap, trying to kiss him. He laughed and pushed her off, calling Matt who had to carry her to the car to take her home.

I was severely depressed by the family situation. Karen phoned every morning at 9 am, and woke me up to give me [censored] for punishing our parents by living with Jeff.

She once told me "If you accept Matt, I'll accept Jeff". I refused. Jeff is honest, hard working and does not steal!

In October 1982, at 1:30 am, we had our 2nd car accident. This accident was particularly bad and we should have died. Thankfully, God had other plans. We were able to walk around, but shaken badly by what had just happened and shocked that we lived through it. Doing what most normal families would have done, we called our families to tell them what had happened. My parents moved to another home and I didn’t know their new phone number. I called Karen and told her the news and then asked for my parents' new number. She told me not to call because they were sleeping. Knowing how stupid my dad could get over things, I listened to her and didn’t call them. Her tone was disturbing. It was as if I was just calling to casually chat.

We had one more accident after that. Our money settlement was due later that year and we decided to finally get married. The date that we chose for our wedding was special to my husband's heart- it was his deceased father's birthday. We told our parents and friends. Shortly afterward, we were informed that Karen was getting married on that same day. Prior to this, Karen and Matt had never mentioned getting married. She had already been living with him for 6 years. We were so pissed off that we said "forget it" and waited 2 more years to try again.

Two months before our wedding in 1986, we visited my parents to tell them. The first 30 minutes of our visit were pleasant. Dad listened. Mom was happy. About an hour into the visit, Dad started saying his usual negative comments. We knew that it was time to leave. Jeff was already out the door and making his way to the car. Dad and Mom followed me into the kitchen where I was putting my shoes on. Dad asked sarcastically “why are you marrying Jeff when you’re only going to have to sign a paper later to get unmarried?”. That comment hit my heart like a bullet. He continued accusing Jeff of pulling the wool over my eyes among other things. This went on and on. This time I lost it. I had rehearsed in my mind for so long, everything that I wanted to say just poured out of my mouth with no effort. At 5 ft 6", I pointed to his 6 ft 2" frame and said “SHUT UP and SIT DOWN! This time I’M gonna talk!”. He looked stunned and slowly sank back into the couch like a little boy. His face went red. Dad sounded like he was trying to mock me but said quietly "okay... have it YOUR way...". Dad never shut up for anyone. I am the only one who has ever stood up to him. He ALWAYS talked over you and argued in circles. I proceeded to scream at Dad for an hour. To this day, I have no idea what I told him. The only thing that I remember saying was that someday something was going to happen and no amount of money was going to be able to fix it. Jeff was outside in the car with the windows rolled up. It was a very windy day. The house was 1500 square feet, the windows were closed and I was at the opposite end of the house but Jeff could hear me yelling. A week and a half later I called mom and told them all to stay home. She never stood up for me. My sister was an idiot. I wasn't speaking to Aaron at the time either because he had borrowed a large amount of money and didn't make any effort to pay anything back.

Dad told mom when Karen and I were teens that if we ever got pregnant before we were married that he would leave her. That was always in the back of my mind. We had been married 7 months when my aunt called in early January. The topic got on to when we were starting a family. I told her that we were trying. Karen, who had never talked about or shown any interest in having children was magically pregnant that same month. That was a pretty amazing feat considering the fact that she openly spoke about never having sex. I conceived in March.

When Karen’s baby Angie* and our baby Abby* were born, we got back together for "the children's sake". Jeff and I hoped it would different with children around to take the focus off of each other. Karen later told me in private that she purposely got pregnant before me. She said she didn't want Angie to have to share grandparents with anyone. What's more, Karen said that Matt's parents favoured their other grandchildren and she wanted Angie to have all of the attention of our parents for herself. I confronted her about this in the family email a few years ago. She knew that everyone else read what she said, and twisted it around to make me look like a liar.

Jeff and I always spoke openly about wanting two children. Not even a year after Angie was born, Karen tried to have a second baby. A year after that, I had my second child and her second child Ted was born one year and one day later! Karen stated with little emotion, that she only had Ted so that Angie would have someone to play with. While Karen sat on the phone all day, Angie became Mommy to Ted. She diapered, fed and played with him. Karen was a little tearful as she told me that Ted was confused and called Angie "Mommy" because he didn't know which of them was his mother. Karen took a short break from the phone and meddling then continued on in her ways. 24 years later, She told my daughter that she would have been fine never having children at all.

My brother, Aaron was never happy. Dad never approved of his life or had anything good to say to him. In Dad's eyes, Aaron was a failure and stupid. He Aaron killed himself in the late 1980s at age 28. The day we buried Aaron, Matt and I hugged and I said "no more fighting". He agreed. I felt that all was genuinely forgiven between him and I. Nothing else seemed important in comparison to a family members death. To this day, Matt will come up to my girls and I and hug us. He has never apologized or acknowledged anything but doesn't seem to continue on like Karen does. It is said that suicide either makes or breaks a family. In our situation, it seemed to make us closer at first but that didn't last for long.

I was in an armed robbery at my job in the early 1990s. No one in my family understood what I was going through except my husband. Abby and our second daughter Lisa* were too little. Dad questioned me ad nauseum about why I wasn’t working. To this day, I have struggled and no one seems to get it. It isn’t the most fantastic memory, having a sawed off rifle put 8 inches away from my head and I still have nightmares. I found out recently that relatives were told in my 12 year absence that I had a disease.. something to do with a robbery.. PTSD… yes… a disease.

Around early 1994, I became aware of the sexual abuse. Pieces were returning and through counselling I was able to finally make sense of so much in my life that didn't make sense before. I made arrangements to meet my sister and share what had happened with her in hope that as sisters, she would support me. Her initial reaction was shock. She told me that she was sorry that it happened but couldn’t understand how. If I was 4, that made her 7. She reasoned that if it happened to me, she would know about it. Jeff and I went to Mom and Dad's sporadically after this but watched the kids extremely close. I was too scared to confront dad incase (as most victims think, that I was wrong somehow, even though I had too much proof that pointed to his guilt. I was more scared that mom would reject me.

One day in 1996, I called to make arrangements to visit. Dad answered and said he and mom were going ‘shopping’. He never asked Mom what she wanted to do and gave his usual crap about anything I tried to make conversation about. A few weeks later he mailed his first of several horrible letters. Jeff called me at work and told me what the letter said. He had reached his breaking point of being quiet so that I didn’t get it worse from Dad. A heated phone call ended with Dad calling Jeff’s dad stupid (his dad died in 1962. Jeff said “leave my Dad out of this, he’s been dead since ’62, (expletive)! You don’t even know my family. How do you know they’re stupid?” Dad’s reply? “I only have to look at you to know how stupid they are”. Dad told Jeff "It's my right to shock people. They need to be shocked because they're so stupid. They need to be shocked out of their existance". It wasn't unusual for comments like this to be followed by "do you want to play horse shoes? (or lawn darts or whatever) had we been there in person. We would look stunned at him and he just didn't seem to get it. One time Jeff said "F*ck this!" after one of Dad's routines. I got told by mom later that what Jeff swore at dad wasn't nice. Hello? Both Karen and Dad do [censored] to people and then when we protest and call them on it, they then turn around and say that we are living in the past and should stop dwelling on things. (Convenient for them not to have to acknowledge their actions and apologize). The insults grew worse (as posted in other replies on forum). At the end of the conversation, Jeff made it clear to Dad that there was to be no more gifts, no contact. Nothing. Dad was used to using money and power to get his way. Mom sent birthday cards for 12 years, telling our kids that she and my dad loved them from "afar" and other guilt comments (once even telling our youngest that she could have her gift if her parents brought her to see them). We sent cards/cheques back or ripped them up. No child deserves guilt. Our kids would NOT be bought or used as pawns. Karen never stopped taking her kids there regardless of the threat of safety around my Dad. The kids stayed overnight often and became very close to my parents.

Mom never spoke against my Dad. His word was final and she never left his side or disagreed. His letters always stated that she agreed with everything even though he was the one writing. When Karen moved out of the house to live with Matt, my Dad freaked and left the house. As Mom cried her heart out thinking that he had left her for good, she stated that if she ever had to choose between Dad and us kids, she would choose Dad. Remembering that, I already had my answer. She was never going to see the kids without my Dad. They were connected at the hip and rarely did anything separate.

Since my parents weren't allowed to see our children, Karen took it upon herself to take photos of our children at school events. We told them all NO PICTURES. My dad coudn't be bothered coming to the occasions so why did they deserve pictures? Karen continued her sneaky ways. On my daughter Abby's* 11th birthday, Karen hauled a trash bag full of birthday and Christmas gifts to Abby's classroom. Abby was upset and crying. The teacher called me and when I protested and said send them back, she suggested that since Abby was already given the gifts, that I should just let her keep them. Our family was very upset and angry. Abby's birthday was ruined. We had to involve school administration and inform Karen by letter to stop harassing our children. There was to be no contact-period.

My dad died in 2008. I felt relief. Without Dad's interference, maybe we could finally get along. Everything seemed fine for the first year. Karen was very helpful and sweet, always inquiring about how the family was. She was very loving to them when we'd meet at Mom's house. I cut off ties with most of my relatives for about 30 years. There was too much nonsense going on. Now I felt it was time to test the waters to see if anything had changed. We were all getting older and I wanted my daughters to know a little about their families they have never known. Gradually, I was made aware that anything that I trusted Karen with after 12 years absence was being repeated again to others. I confronted her by writing an open email to her, her family and my Mom. I wanted everyone to hear my words and not have what I said interpreted by anyone else. Karen had been gossiping about Matt, Angie and Ted to others and I asked her to stop for their sakes. True to the actions of a psycho, she wrote back that she asked if they minded if she told others about their lives. They both said that they didn’t care. That was her interpretation of telling everyone they partied too much and didn’t know how to handle money.

None of them liked it because we came back to the family. Karen told people who didn’t even know me that she had to watch me to make sure I didn’t spend too much of Mom’s money. At the same time, she told me “Mom has more money than either of us have ever dreamed of. We have to help her spend it or she’ll have to pay too much in taxes”. Wth? I guess with so much money on the line, her kids stand to lose too much if they go against their Mom.

In response both Angie and Ted told me to grow the F up and stop sponging (off my Mom). Ted lied and said Karen never said anything bad about us. He also informed me that I was nobody to him and he didn't care about my family. Matt, who seems to have straightened out, stays out of everything. By staying out, he enables Karen to plow her path of destruction, unstopped. Needless to say, gossip and the other crap has continued. They must like it that way.

In the last few years since Dad died, Karen has privately apologized to Jeff for lyng about him to her children. She never anyone else that she did this. (It seems that psycopaths cover their asses well and only admit to things in private knowing that no one can prove it later.)At age 8, Angie in an annoyed tone, said "Uncle Jeff, you're a pain in the butt!" Karen never corrected her. It was obvious that Angie heard Karen refer to Jeff this way before. We were stunned by the disrespect. Our children were never allowed to speak to anyone in that way. When we got back together after our 12 year absence, Angie didn’t even want to acknowledge Jeff because of the lies she was told by Karen.

I didn't see Karen and Matt from 1982-88 when Angie and Abby were born. Things broke off from 1996-2008 when my Dad died. That's almost half of my life. Karen wrote to me that when things broke off again, she was hurt and shocked. When she gossips about me not talking to her anymore, she describes our decision to stay away having happened because of 'misunderstandings' on my part.

Karen can be summed up in 3 phrases: she blames everything that she does on someone else (she says she's a Christian and the devil caused the problem which excuses her accountability). she copies everything she lies about everything

Jeff, the girls and I have broken off ties once and for all with Karen and her family about 18 months ago. This time it's for good. No one can say that we didn't try.

Mom has begged for a great grandchild for several years. Not long ago, Karen persuaded her to buy Angie a house. It is now paid in full and Mom has also paid a HUGE amount of outstanding credit charges. At 23 years old, Angie owns her own house, is not a good money manager but will never have to worry about a mortgage. Even though she will learn nothing from actually having to work for whatever she has, Angie is set for life. Karen, not wanting anyone to get ahead, got Mom to buy her own great grandchild. Angie is not married, seeks out rich men, and doesn't seem to care about who gives her a baby-- just as long as she gets one... she just gave birth to one this week. Mom is ecstatic. Angie and her baby are the most perfect, beings in Mom's eyes. God help that kid.

I don't know what anyone can tell me about coping. It isn't any one thing that Karen does to me. It's a combination of injustice, twisting everything that I say, meddling, lieing about my family and I to anyone who will listen, never ending competition. Karen said that if she isn't allowed tell her friends anything (gossip) then she will find people that she doesn't know and tell them because she doesn't believe in secrets and just can't hold it in! She is helping me somehow, I guess by telling my most private feelings to a room full of people and then critiqueing what I've said. SHE ALWAYS GETS AWAY WITH IT! I don't want to hate anyone but can't help waiting for all of it to come crashing down. I have to resign myself to the fact that just like Mom chose my dad over her own children, she has also chosen my sister and her family over me and mine. I represent everything she doesn't want to deal with and would rather forget. I am trying really hard not to hurt. We will distance ourselves, block out Karen as much as possible, be civil to Mom and visit her but try to ignore all of banners and fanfare concerning Karen and her super family. She's just getting worse now and there are more mini-Karens in the making . Thank God I have the most amazing husband and daughters or I might have cracked up or killed myself.

In answer to your question: She makes me crazy. I want to bang my head on my desk and not stop. She's like a fly that I can't kill-buzzing around my head, taunting me, then escaping before I can get my hands on her.......an infection that just---won't--- GO ----AWAY.

BforAshes I hope you feel better getting it all out, but thank God your immediate family is on side. This behavior is confounding. Mine (husband, now out of the house) also walks on water as far as everyone else is concerned and I have no idea what he says about me - I've been cut off from his family, friends and colleagues for awhile. A fight or something always happened before a scheduled meet. Sorry to zero in on what I can relate to and may be facing, so forgive me if I bring up bad memories but do I understand correctly that you were molested by your father at age 4, who I also presume was a psychopath, and that perhaps it didn't last long and you blocked it out for all those years, until something triggered you to remember? And you do remember it was real, and not from your imagination? And maybe because of that you disliked your father but never realized why? And do I also understand that when you moved out, your father threatened to leave your mother? Was she "discarded" (to use the lingo) and you were the replacement "supply"? (It's not just narcissists that get supply right, I think Psychopaths need it too).

Dear Akeso, I do feel better getting things out but find, I'm sure like others, that it seems more unreal reading it (in print?). I've only thought about it for most of my life. There is some theraputic value to writing feelings down. This is new to me and it is helping a lot although it is still painful in some ways to rehash old crap.

As for yourself, Akeso, there is no loss being cut off from your husband's family if his mother is sexually abusive. They did you a favour from what I understand from some of your posts. I have cut myself off from my family for almost half of my 49 years.

The memories about my childhood are significantly blocked. I remember safe things like who my childhood school friends were, visiting some trusted relatives etc but a good majority of memories are blocked. I cannot remember what half of our house that I lived in as a child looked like. We moved often. When I try to imagine being in the houses, part of the house is blank, no matter how hard I try to visiualize it. It makes no sense to remember some parts very clearly and not a shred of rememberance for others.

My father though not medically diagnosed, completely fits the criteria of a psycopath (refer to some of my other posts). He was a workaholic. He worked all day, came home, rested an hour then went to a 2nd job in the evening. I was close to him growing up. I'd say that I was closest out of my siblings, as I was always with him when he practiced for his band (sang, played guitar). I sat for hours listening to him play and sang along. Because I was curious, I always went to find him in the yard or where ever he was keeping busy and either helped or watched him work. You could say I was 'daddy's girl'. At one point, I became 'mommy's girl' and I didn't want to go to school. I made excuses, saying my feet hurt etc. and wanted to stay home with my mom. After physical check ups, multiple blood tests, nothing showed up. I was then taken to a psychiatrist from around ages 7-9. The most that I understood out of these visits was that I was sensitive (a comment that would follow me the rest of my life. My sister resented and mocked me for being the 'sensitive' one). After my first car accident at 21 yo, I didn't know where else to go for the frustration and anger so I returned to the same psychiatrist. The very FIRST comment he said to me when I sat down in the chair was something that I said to him as a child. I told him that I didn't want to become a woman. He told me that comment always bothered him. I don't recall talking to him about it further.

I liked my dad until he retired from his evening job and was suddenly around all of the time. I was 12 at the time when he took over the reigns of discipline. He was unreasonably strict and said really hurtful things. In families where abuse is present, we don't know any different. In the 70s abuse wasn't talked about like it is now. I accepted my families odd behaviour as 'normal' although I didn't like it.

When I was 18, my bf (husband now) would come to get me on a Saturday afternoon. The outside door was always open and he knocked and then came in. On one particular day, I was late returning from shopping with my mom. He was expecting me to be home and heard a noise in my bedroom. When he got down the hallway and pushed open my door, he found my dad digging through my underwear drawer. When dad realized Jeff was there, he immediately got mad, told him to get outside and I got lectured the next day. Jeff later told me what had happened. I don't remember my response. It's really gross to think about today. I must have been in deep denial to not want to leave at that minute. EW! After a few years of Jeff coming over and knocking before entering the house, suddenly dad had a new set of rules. Jeff was NOT family and he was NEVER to come in the house without ringing the door bell and waiting to be let in. I was also asked who Jeff thought that he was, just walking in like that.

I have been in and out of counselling for most of my life. One morning I was getting ready for work and felt like I had just gotten the flu. I felt so sick. I asked my husband to pray for me. As I laid back, on my bed, it came to me that my dad had done something to me when I was 4. (I won't be specific). I got up, thinking that I was going to throw up. I ran to the bathroom, the nausea passed and I sat on the toilet seat lid and screamed for an hour. The screaming was deep and painful like labour pains, and I couldn't stop it. The feelings coming up felt like terror. My husband was with me and he took me to a good friends house later to talk and pray with her. Since that time and more counselling, I have seen snippets of what I believe was abuse at the hands of my father but I discontinued counselling. It was too painful. They say that emotions never age. I believe that. I really believe that as a young child, this is exactly what I felt.

I more than anyone, play back mental images, forward, backwards, sideways, upside down. I challenge and question myself, trying to find holes in my story. Though I can't recall his exact words, I believe my dad told me that if I ever told my mom what he was doing, that she would not love me anymore. To this day, I have never confronted her about the abuse although I believe she knows what happened. I never confronted dad. I am still afraid at almost 50, to tell her because I am afraid of losing her. That feeling has to come from somewhere.

I may not have explained this part right. My dad threatened my mom that if either my sister or I got pregnant before we were married, that he would leave her. This was just another of his control tactics. Mom was married to this man for 50 years til he died. She was completely devoted to him. I joke that I wish I had gotten pregnant.. then he would have left sooner. Not nice, but...

Im sorry, Akeso, I have read some of your posts and I believe that your husband is molesting your daughter. I am no expert. My qualification is actually having lived through it and not just from reading text books. I have memories of odd behaviours that I did as a child that were way too adult for me to have learned on my own (again, 1960s-no internet, not much in way of available material for kids to get their hands on and learn). There are other things that confirm my suspicions.

Both of my daughters have waist length hair. They always have even into adulthood. We kept them away from my parents because he was so caustic and more importantly to protect them from molestation. He hadn't seen them in a few years and randomly asked "Do our granddaughters still have long hair? Don't you know that's dangerous?". I was like... wt*, I thought he'd gone off the deep end until my husband reminded me of how my mom always talked me into getting my hair cut short. Jeff liked long hair and I always let mom talk me into cutting mine above the shoulder. She also kept hers short even though she would always remark that dad liked long hair. Her reasoning was always that her hair fell out when it got too long or it was easier to look after when it was short. I can only guess that it was her way of protecting me. I was less of a "young girl" with short boyish hair. I have also come to the realization recently that while dad never allowed mom or us kids to sit around much as teens at home, I now believe that by doing so, he wanted me to stay very thin. He hated 'fat' people. I was flat chested so I maintained an adolescent figure. He also had magazines under his mattress that I saw when I helped mom flip their mattress during spring cleaning. She explained that the magazine's were 'borrowed' from men at work. One was full of girls dressed as teens. Our garage walls were covered with pictures of local young girls in swimsuits taken from our newspaper, as was a shed in the backyard that no one else went into except dad. When we drove somewhere as a family, dad would see a long haired teen or young adult waiting to cross the street. He would say to mom "there's a little cutie". Mom would be annoyed and make a sarcastic remark. She often complained that she would like to see a love story when they agreed to go see a movie but would very often have to see dirty movies that he wanted to watch. I am told that in the early 70s, up until his death, he was still watching porn.

As for your other posts, overnight touching is not unheard of. If your daughter goes for a nap, etc, she will be asleep and not remember. For myself as a teen, that would explainmy not remembering. Dad sometimes came into the room to 'check the window for condensation' during damp or winter weather. Since I would have been expecting that as usual behaviour, I would not have been surprized if he happened to be in my room when my sleep was interrupted. When you are half asleep, you don't think clearly. Touching someone while they are asleep, is still considered abuse. It just takes one touch, one time to affect a life. I saw an Oprah Winfrey show that had pedos on it and one admitted to doing just that with his step-daughter on a regular basis. His confession validated my own questions about why I can't remember some of my own incidents.

How old is your daughter? Kids rarely lie. The whole changing the shirt to what he wants her to wear (even toothbrush-sorry, to rid her mouth of evidence?) is all very suspicious and would raise very red flags all over the place for me. Changing her clothes allows him an excuse to see her naked. It also allows him an excuse to touch her while he is changing her. Swimming again allows her vulnerability in the shower (or state of undress) after (I don't know her age or whether she is too young to shower alone). Forget the offended act by him. Guilty people protest the loudest. Don't fall for any of his emotional pleas. He knows the game very well.

Overnight. yes, that was probably the most convenient time for my dad. Mom was asleep. When we were little, my siblings and dad would play under the blankets. Mom would encourage us to go wake him up in the morning. He would keep us underneath and tell silly stories while he blew his bad breath on us, then he would laugh hysterically. Sounds innocent? I'm told by my grandmother, that she 'saw hands going underneath the covers" of her own children; my dad and his siblings. His dad did it to him. He already had that idea in his head.

I don't know whether anyone believes me. My husband and daughters do. The rest don't matter. Give your daughter the very best gift that you will ever give her and fight tooth and nail to get that creep out of her life. At the very least--- SUPERVISED VISITS!!!

As for mothers passing down psycopathy to their sons--my families psycopathic behaviour was passed from my grandfather who also molested children, to my dad who molested children, to my sister-no idea about her molesting. I don't even want to go there mentally.

I have more than likely missed some points but hope this is of some help to you. Everything you say about your daughter raises flags. No, it isn't good to see a pedo around each corner but I wish my mom had been more like you. I'm sorry. I'd rather you think like a pedophile because it will make all of the difference in the world. Keep going and develop a thick skin as far as your husband is concerned. Actors can't act without an audience. Don't give in to his emotional displays. It's all B.S. You and your daughter are in my prayers.

Now my daughter says when she goes over to his place, he changes her out of her t-shirt into one of his choosing, then changes it back before bringing her home. And has bought her another bathing suit, toothbrush/paste (but she never stays over) - like he's making a separate world for them over there, or is just being "odd" enough to piss me off (gaslighting) but not enough to accuse him of anything. He's enmeshed (covert incest) with his mother so I hope he isn't doing the same with his daughter.

Anyway I'm afraid because he's smart and I don't know what he's capable of (the rages and lies can be scary, and the terrible things his mother has done to me - for having the gall to ask her to stop doing something in my house that she didn't want to stop - is beyond the pale), so I can't stay a step ahead. I just try and be as loving a mother as possible and tell her to tell her dad if anything bugs her, and that she knows what's real and what isn't. For instance, she had a cold once and both her father and grandmother told her she didn't have one. I don't want her to start doubting what's real, or be "traumatically bonded" as I read in another thread, or become a Psychopath herself... so many worries.

Some say it's better for a child to have their father present no matter if he's a Psychopath or not, but I'm wondering, isn't it better to take a chance and leave or have no or little contact, and have hope that I/we meet someone else who actually will behave properly?!

I looked for a previous post by you Akeso to make sure of what I thought that I read earlier. From what you say, it's quite possible that H is building his own world for him and your daughter. My psycho-sister does this with her life and also pissing you off in the process. My dad always moved us away from people after 5 years or less. I moved 5 times in 16 years.

What do you mean "he's enmeshed in covert incest with his mother???" If he's doing anything with his mother you can be damn sure he's going it with your kid. This is a sick man. As far as your comments about your daughters vagina being irritated when she comes home from his visit, why is this even a question for the doctors. They need to take their heads out of their arses and do their jobs. Emergency room visit next time this happens! Don't ever think you are over reacting. He is smart but you are smarter for being one up on him.

I don't know what teaches a person who isn't a psycho to have those tendencies. My niece has learned from my sister how to take without conscience. She used someone to have a baby. Most of the time she doesn't appear to have much conscious about what she does or who she hurts.

It's ABSOLUTELY incorrect to keep a dad around whether he's a good dad or not. NO NO NO NO! You need to stay as the only stable person in your daughter's life. No father at all is better than a piece of _____ father. I could have done without mine.

BeautyforAshes thank you so much for your posts. Amazing isn't it how we can help complete strangers, and immediately. I am so sorry about your childhood trauma and what those people have and still do that still affects your life when you should be just enjoying life. I thank you again for revisiting that past for my benefit. It also makes me sad for my daughter. I have read that this can turn her into an N herself or make her promiscuous so I'm doing a lot of reading of how to keep her attached to me as best I can.Just to explain a couple of things, covert incest is a term that's used for when a parent uses their child for emotional support against an abusive spouse. My H also used to cast me in the role of his abusive father and I'm not like that at all. I have lost my temper in response to his rages and hurtful accusations. The worst was telling him I hated him while he held my daughter in his lap, just calmly watching me. A natural reaction is to get the child out of the way, but no. Anyway my daughter just turned 4. The thing about the toothpaste turns my stomach and also about him protesting the loudest about what he would do to a pedophile. But I can't go in accusing with guns blazing (I did that already - just to him - when I found his porn file) without absolute proof, otherwise I risk losing permanently. He has a big reputation to protect and I cannot accuse him without proof. I would be seen as the jealous and vindictive (and crazy) ex. Which I'm sure is how he's already depicting me. Instead I have tried to be very accommodating and friendly. I feel I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. I've already lost my daughter's trust because since she told (it was during a visit, not overnight. He was "sleeping" she said, while touching her). I've had to send her back to him for unsupervised visits because I have no reason I can explain to him not to, while all the while trying to make her believe that she can trust me. Now she knows she can't, and is being very aggressive to me now. Meanwhile she keeps asking to see him. He must be being ever so kind, giving her things, carrying her around on his shoulders (while wearing a dress...) Again, nothing really bad, just off-putting enough. As for the red vagina, it may also be because of wearing tight trousers in hot weather so I'm giving the benefit of the doubt. It hasn't just been after he's seen her. Now he is being on his best behavior (only because it's in his interest), so I don't think I'm going to get proof for awhile - but again, imagine putting your innocent daughter in harm's way - to get the proof I need to get him out of our life. So there are a couple other things I am trying. Thank you for your prayers, and your posts. They also sort of show that there's no real way I can prove anything at least by seeing any off-behavior - because he's moved out. He used to come home late, stay up a bit and then sleep on the couch, so who knows what he was doing. I asked my daughter if he ever came in her room and she said no, but she might not remember or could be lying. When I've asked her things in front of him, she looks at him almost to see if it's okay to answer. All very disturbing, very confusing (which is what they love) and it has to be said, very evil. Despite loving the man, (if all this is not true of course), since last night I conjure an image of his face engulfed in flames. Yes I'm religious...

Sorry, I got carried away lol. I absolutely see red when it comes to this. I don't know why I watch Law & Order and other shows that depict what I hate most. Vindication, I guess. We always want to see the bad guy get his, even as Christians.

You're welcome. I get to vent, I suppose, by writing this so it's for me as well as anyone else who can use my experiences to help themselves or others in some way. I know that I have the choice to completely give this all up. I find it hard when it is all that I've ever known. There is a strange comfort in what you are used to, if that makes any sense, but I am not happy and pray to be completely healed of all of this crap.

What is an N? Narcissist? Unfortunately, I was promiscuous as a teen. I was looking for love that a real father should have given. Instead I felt like I was only good for one thing. I still use way to much soap and feel dirty. At 15, I wanted to be loved so badly that I let a boy use me sexually for about 7 months. Healing from that experience took 30 years when a card from that person was delivered to me. It was then, after his apology for everything that he had done, that I could completely let go and have closure. The good news is that I met the love of my life just before I turned 17. He stayed by me in all things, loved and supported me and has been with me since. Not every story turns out awful.

When I was a kid, my mother used to complain that her nerves were bad. She took 3 Vivol (Valium) a day for 10 years. We always had to accomodate her 'bad nerves' by complying, not getting on her nerves, not talking about things that were a problem ie: my dad's behavior. She would tell us not to talk about this or that infront of him, 'don't tell dad, I don't want to hear about it" etc. I don't know if that's the same thing as you are describing but sometimes as a child it seemed the roles were reversed and we had to support her emotionally while he continued to be abusive. By the age of 18, I was sent for stomach tests, barrium enemas, and I was on Fiorinal, a sedative/barbituate, for my nerves. I was also only having a bowel movement once a week. I know for some people that could be normal but I was always severely constipated most of childhood/teen years while living with that family. As an adult, sometimes I have gotten aggitated when I've had to look after my husband or daughters when they are sick. I don't know why and I feel terrible about it. I think it may have something to do with her "delicate" emotional state that always had to be nurtured by her children instead of her just getting up the nerve to tell dad to piss off. I feel like I've been a mom for most of my life.

My dad also threw himself into fits or rages. He was like a drill sargeant, demanding that we clean this or do that. Hurtful was his middle name. Mom always said "oh, he didn't mean it that way" "he doesn't think before he talks", "you know how dad is". He always seemed to want to 'protect us'. When I started dating, he was very mean to my boyfriends. The ones when I was younger, not as much but my husband..(before marriage). wow... he went after him like crazy and even more so after we became engaged. I don't think protection is the same to a psycopath, as we understand it. To my dad, my husband represented him losing control of me and his ability to abuse would soon be gone when I moved away. His twisted mind probably thought that he was protecting me from outsiders like my boyfriend.

My mom as a widow, had a FaceBook page that she "liked". It said that all pedophiles should be hanged. Harsh. My dad was one. Who was she protesting loudest about? Them or my dad? It didn't make sense and just made me angry that she could deny her own husband doing it to his own child but then have something like that on her page for all to see. Screaming loud means nothing. It's all a show.

Tight trousers? I have raised 2 girls and neither ever had red vaginas because of tight trousers. Get her looser trousers? I'm sorry about the toothpaste comment. I don't even know this man and I want to strangle him..

Make notes, get as much proof as you can. Backing off a bit may help if your daughter is becoming aggressive.

See if you can role play with her so she doesn't suspect what you're doing. Does she play with dolls? Maybe you can be the daughter... she can be the mommy (don't be obvious) and so on and hopefully something may slip out that way. If she is in couselling, they should be able to get her to open up somehow. Just remembering myself at that age or just older, I mustn't have told the psychiatrist much either. Even before people talked about it, he would have surely caught on. Saying that I didn't want to become a woman should have rang bells. You have so many more resources available now. Someone will gain her trust. I know all about the looking at her dad thing. We were taken to relatives houses etc and we sat like dolls until mom nodded for us to be able to go play with our cousins. If we were asked if we wanted a treat, we looked at my mom. Her sisters didnt always have extra money for treats so she always knew when they could afford to offer it or not. If she nodded approval, we took it. If she nodded no, we didnt. Everything was kept very strict in that sense. We knew there were lines that we did not cross without creating trouble. Your daughter has been warned by her father what not to answer or how to answer. She is looking to him because she unsure of what to say that won't get him pissed. What a friggen (expletive).

I'm very sorry, I would be going crazy if I were you. Try to play it cool and continue on collecting bits of evidence.

"I know it must sound awful that I love him, but I've been praying for small miracles, and also of course, that the worst scenario is not true."

Loving someone doesn't mean agreeing with their behaviour. You loved him before you knew all of this. That doesn't change how you feel. It just makes it harder to deal with conflicting thoughts. I wish that the worst scenario wasn't true too but if what you are telling us is true and I believe that it is... don't allow yourself to go into denial. Pray Pray Pray. God is bigger than all of this and will bring justice. ~BFA

Hi and many thanks for your replies and taking the time to look up my posts. I really just feel gutted, especially at the moment, and also just wish I knew for sure. I wonder if I'll ever know. The only people who know are him and my daughter, who adores him and is a happy kid. She isn't withdrawn or anything. But she can be very aggressive with me, to the point where I wonder if she has the gene. All very scary. I'm just reading about the behavior of 4 year olds and another book called "hold on to your kids". The other book I read discussed covert incest, so I'm sure this was the case with my husband and his mother, and I'm wanting to make sure that due to my own fragile state these months, I'm not putting too much of (and misplaced) emotional burden on my dear daughter, who is also very wise for her age.I think I'd be able to find out about misconduct if I asked her myself, but experts (including internet), child psych and lawyer have all advised me not to. This is because it could put her in danger the next time she sees him and may tell him who knows. And they don't want her tipping him off. I'm just waiting to get some appts now and hopefully get some answers. Meanwhile I feel very frustrated, and also dealing with her related mistrust. It's weakening the bond between us, which again, is a great "point" for the competitive psychopath and/or narcissist (yes N is for narcissist). He has otherwise said, frequently, what a great mother I am. I wonder why he keeps saying it. Because I finally got him to leave so as not to poison the atmosphere any longer? So she wouldn't see the abuse and think it was normal? Cus I'm trying to protect her from him? Dunno. But I did get her hair cut super short too...Re her redness, when she gets it, it's all around her privates, like an eliptical ring from her outer labia around her bottom. We live in a very hot climate so wondering if its chaffing or something but I've been putting her in dresses lately to see if that helps. But as I said, he knows what I suspect so I don't think he'd try anything, at least for awhile. They say they always do it again, so if that's the case then it's only a matter of time. I think at the moment he's just making a thick bond with her and doing some "programming" as Di also mentioned. But gee this is pretty awful waiting meanwhile. Pastor (who I didn't tell about the child abuse but did tell about the abuse to me) said to just keep the dialogue open. So that's what I've been doing. Not possible to go no contact with a child involved. You can count your blessings that you met the man of your life so young and he still loves and stands by you. What a rarity! At least in my experience! (Isn't that a sad comment...) Kiss that man :-)

Sounds like you are doing all that you can. Keep going. Yes. I realize that I am very blessed to have met someone like my husband so young in life and to still be with him. Thanks for your kind words and explanation of things. I wish you all the best and hope that you keep us posted. :)~BfA

I've been going to the healthfood store & buying natural salts (the edible types/ not bath salts but that's not bad idea either).. I'm going into total health food/cleanse mode to get my energy & vitality back. This has taken a toll on me in such a way that I feel I have to go all out to rise above the stress. It's been a week since I started this & I'm feeling better already.

Dianne, I think of you often & lately in re the surgery you were going to have done & pray you are doing better. I too remember what you said about medications & how you are an advocate against them (the anti d's etc).. I have stocked my supplies of fish oil/ flax seed oil/ vit d/calcium, etc.. I feel I am at war against the stress & will win this battle (or at least make every attempt to).

I think Psychopaths often don't know how to care for themselves & tend to drinking/ smoking pot/ any way to kill the pain without dealing with life head on.. I realize there are many ways to heal in life but I would rather do so naturally as possible.I'm having fun stocking my shelves with healthy remedies. I watch Dr. Oz & they were talking about olives that help in healing.. it's fun to be healthy. I pray you are doing well (Dianne) post your operation & happy holidays &>all.

I think Psychopaths often don't know how to care for themselves & tend to drinking/ smoking pot/ any way to kill the pain without dealing with life head on..

1Healing,

Glad to hear that you are finding some healthy ways of recovering from your relationship with the psychopath.

One thing I would take issue with is the idea that the psychopaths do anything to "kill the pain", because they don't FEEL pain in any true emotional sense. Pain is not getting what they want.

In the aftermath of when I was with a psychopath, I took to alcohol to numb the pain. But, I am definitely not a psychopath. I am simply a person who couldn't believe that this supposedly "perfect" person, who I thought the psychopath was due to the lies and convincing image created by them, was not at all who I thought. I missed being the object of the psychopath's desire. Their desire is so strong and fierce, at the time it seems like the most intense, amazing connection in the world. You feel fabulous until their gaze focuses upon someone else. And it always will. And they will always play the victim to you.

Anyway, my healing journey is also continuing. There are days like today where it is hard. I get stuck thinking back instead of forward. I crave alcohol to numb the pain, to shut my brain down from having to think about the psychopath, but I continue to fight for my life, my sobriety. The hardest line of the Serenity prayer is, "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change." Like you, like many, I have a hard time accepting what happened, making peace with it, accepting that I can't change the past. Like Dianne has said before, psychopaths don't choose the weak. They choose the strong, perhaps the strong who have vulnerabilities that can be potentially exploited, but nonetheless strong, good, empathic people. It is also because we are strong that it is hard to accept our bad judgment for falling into the trap of being with the psychopath in the first place. Yet, it is only through accepting that we did the best we could at the time with the knowledge we had, that we can be easy on ourselves, forgive ourselves for being duped time and again by the psychopath's words.

skybluepaint, I've read your previous posts, and this one, and I know exactly how you feel. I had my time with alcohol also. It started with the Psychopath. Parties, crazy ppl. I found myself lost in the world of ppl who had nothing better to do but get drunk. And after all hell broke loose, I found myself craving for things that made me numb. I'd drink every day sometimes. It was kinda scary but I also knew that that was the only way to make it through at that time.

Maybe thats why I appreciate life more now, I am incredibly happy and I I found a way to love life to the fullest. Or maybe I just was like this before, and he destroyed it. But its back, and it feels great. All it takes is patience. So sometimes, when those bad feelings get to me, like today - I just breath deep and remember that it's only time. Patience is all, and it will guide you. Knowing that everything will pass, that there is no pain that lasts a lifetime is comforting. Theres no such thing as a change for bad. Coz every one of them teaches you, you grow wiser. If you can experience it.

What troubles me still though is the anxiety, coz together with the pain, all the love for this person had to die. And even though its been a long time, I am still not in a place to love again. Worse, I dont even want to. I am scared by ppl. I tend to look out too much. A smallest mistake and I am petrified. Its not that Im scared of people, but I became more distant, more calculating with ppl. I want to trust that, just like my happiness, it will come back. But I find it hard to trust people.

Great post! I have to hope it is true that change is good because you become wiser, stronger. There is still a part of me that is in the process of letting go. I suppose the holidays now are triggering a lot of things for me. I'm back in the city where I first met Psychopath and spent her birthday with her, Xmas eve, five years ago. And it was two years ago, when we were both living in different places, that I didn't call at the right time due to being time zones away, that she used this as her excuse to lure in the next victim at a party, make him feel sorry for her, enlist him as her counselor, use him, the same pattern with which she suckered me in. Stupidly in denial, I spent a year trying to reconcile, to recapture what I thought was there, plus another year drowning my sorrows. Only now,am I finally at the point where I can feel the full extent of the pain, let go. As you said, "IF you can experience it" and for a long time, I tried not to experience it, because the reality was too hard to face.

I had never loved anyone so much, so hard, so intensely. Too find out this person was never who I thought she was, to finally see her "dark side" (her words) and put all of the odd words, lack of empathy, the crazy pieces of the puzzle together was excruciatingly painful. She stole my innocence. So, I totally understand how you are not in a place to love again. Right now, I wonder, too, if I'll ever feel like that again. But a good counselor once told me that it is important to not confuse intensity with intimacy. Being with a psychopath is intense, but it isn't intimate. They can't understand what you feel, can't love you and put you first. It is like an addiction to their craziness and constantly trying to help them.

I do think you are on the right path, one I hope to follow, which is to refind yourself, a new self, a better self. Energy is pretty amazing stuff. As you begin to resonate on a more positive, wholesome energy level, you will attract that same energy to you, good energy, and good people. With increased understanding, you are better able to see who people are. I agree with you, though, it will probably be a while before I can fully let my guard down and love like that again.

skybluepaint, I agree with you, the holidays are triggering a lot of these bad feelings. I know exactly how you feel about these triggers of the place. I made a decision a long time ago to "overwrite" all these places/memories. Everything that was connected with Psychopath - I tried to connect with sth or someone else. It works to some extend, and has proven to be enough. I still get these moments when I just stop and think how it was. But I very quickly go from that to picturing his face in my face, dead eyes, weird grimace, and all the hate burning in him when he was hurting me. And I get this relief.

"and for a long time, I tried not to experience it, because the reality was too hard to face."

I know, me too. I don't even think I would've done it without alcohol. It's sad to think that, but its the truth (and again being honest about it is the only way:) And I don't really think I could go through it again. I couldn't. Honestly, this was too much. I had to numb the pain, there was no other way. Nothing helped.

The intensity of the feeling with a Psychopath is trully amazing. Someone here on this forum compared it all to the Psychopath taking you to the mountain top with him/her, just to throw you off the edge and watch you fall and crush witha smile on their face. It really is like that. They take everything from you. Literally everything. Then they leave you with no life, and unable to live. With a world turned upside down.

But the positive thing is once you make it through, you become this perfect version of yourself. I feel "upgraded" somehow. I let go off everything, coz I had nothing to loose anymore, and thanks to that I looked or things I may have never looked for, had I stayed the way I was. It made me find myself and love myself. And you cannot ever be happy if you don't love yourself. Once you do, the whole world doesn't matter, it doesn't matter if its good or bad outside, if you're fine inside nothing can make you sad. Or at least not for long:)

And when you're so positive, the world around you gets positive, it's true. It works the same way as the smile - it is contiguous. And it is so great, coz, once you've made this incredible effort for this really long time, you will see the effects now. And once they are coming slowly, you become happy again, and from the on it's perpetual. Coz when you're happy it goes out to the world around and then others are happy and they make you even happier and so on:DI realized how, within just a few weeks I got to a point of utter happiness. I would compare it all to trying to roll a wheel, thats so heavy, you have to put all of your energy in it, but the more you do the easier it gets, and then you reach a point when it just rolls by itself:) So now, even when Im sad like a few days ago, I have these ppl around who will cheer me up and make me feel so great. But to be in this place and have these ppl around I had to try real hard to roll the wheel:)

I've been think about what you wrote "Right now, I wonder, too, if I'll ever feel like that again.". I've been questioning this forever. And now I finally got it, that I was asking the wrong question in the first place! The question isn't "IF". Will I ever love like that - first of all you cannot really answer that, how could you? Second - why does that matter? The REAL question is - do you WANT TO love like that? Do I? Hell no! Of course, I want to love and trust, but nit like that! Not blindly, not with this weird gut-feeling that sth's wrong. What I want, is someone I can trust and who takes care of me, just as much as I do care for them. Someone who DESERVES my love. So I am being at peace with it, and just go slow on this. I met many ppl, but I wont get into anything unless I know them well.

It's been some months now. I'm trying what I can. I guess I can just write down what seems to be some weakness, honestyIt doesn't go a day by without me thinking of her. Analyzing past happenings, realizing times she'd cheated, and while I was suspicious when ever I would imply that I wanted to ask her - the accusations were thrown on me that I was the oneWhat the [censored] was going on. I could not think, it's like...tranquilized. ParalyzedI'm reading up all the time. I was reading about archetypes on some site and this struck me so; The Black Widow

Quote:

She is slinky and smooth like black velvet with an iron core. She goes after anyone she wants and is skilled at using all her charms. When she lures you into her web she will sting you with her poison, putting you into a deep sleep. She will then devour you.

I had not heard from Psychopaths in over a month I think. I got a message on xmas day

Quote:

I just want to let you know I am not enjoying my Christmas. I am really sad and crying now. Because of you. That is really true

Use my empathy...I know it's nothing, no meaning. There's someone new now. That much is obvious as the crave for attention has vanished completely...it's just...some poor effort to keep me tangled. I hope the new victim(s) googles her and finds my blog

I miss some of it. She was my first.."love". I miss the fun conversation, we were both good at pulling each others' strings and having a great time. I would have to fight quite hard should she have shown up at my door right now. I would have made it but it would be tough

I want her. I don't want the fake love but I still want her. I want that whole experience of being together. All those highs.That is what part of me wants and that is hard and weird to admit, as it's beyond destructive

The head prevails though. It's always been stronger. I just let my guard down. Way down.I allowed myself to feel. To be. To live in the moment. To let go. To be my real self with someone.I hope to be able to do that with someone in a healthy relationship somehow. If not, at least with myself.

Merry xmas all and hope you're all doing better every day. Some days are great, other days falling back into the deep hole. I will even excuse myself for writing this at the moment I feel I am being narcissistic for rambling like this.I read the stories and advice above. I like it.

I really feel for everyone that has been with a Psychopath. It is a horrible existence!

I've been with my Psychopath for about 19 1/2 years. She has not only taken anything I liked and torn it down but also went way out of her way in private and public to make it sound horrible and stupid to like music, reading, dancing and even people. I think that God has somehow kept me "asleep" as to what my Psychopath is until the last two and a half years, maybe to get my last two children (daughters) far enough along where if I leave now they'll be alright or at least be able to cope and maybe they'll decide to come and live with me after they realize she is no good. I'm "awake" now! For now she has got them thinking I am incompetent, can't remember anything and don't listen or understand whatever topic is on the table at the time.

Life with her has been so absolutely crazy. As an example, I wanted to take everyone to a matinee and she says she doesn't want to go, but, tomorrow while my daughters have the day off of school and I don't have a day off of work - she's taking them without me.It I want to rent a movie to watch with her, she'll wait until we have a fight and then rent it and watch it without me.I could write a book about my bazaar life with her and I might. I could go on with thousands of examples of her insanity.

No one knows that she is a Psychopath but me. She puts on her mask with everyone else. She has almost eliminated any contact I have with friends or family and we are located in a location where no one is close enough to drive and see or to go and live with. We'd have to sell our house and I'd loose everything as far as physical stuff - she'd see to that. I want to leave her, but I'm so concerned she'll make my two daughters much more of her targets than they are now if I'm not around for her to constantly pick on. She'll make sure I loose my precious daughters as well - she'll keep turning them against me.

There is nothing more important to her than being right about everything and she won't stop bugging me until I agree with her. I can't stand it much longer. My daughters will be better off in long run if I get away and start to get my sanity back so I can be there for them. I haven't had the guts to do it yet, but I will. As I said, I'm awake and that makes it even harder to take than when I was ignorant that she was a full fledged Psychopath. She is spot on in Hare checklist in all buy one - promiscuity.

Someone please give me the courage to leave her before I lose my mind! Thank so much for being there and having this secure place to get this off my chest!

Someone please give me the courage to leave her before I lose my mind! Thank so much for being there and having this secure place to get this off my chest!

Psychoabused

Hi Psychoabused

I'm really sorry for everything you have been through. It sounds horrendous, truly. I am glad you found us though. Being here, on this forum, has helped me more than I could have ever imagined possible.

From what I've read of your life, you already have the courage. You have had the courage to survive life with this woman, to bring up (at least) two beautiful children. And you have had the courage to see through the mask, to speak out about it (here) and to hope for a better future for both you and your daughters. Those are huge acts of courage, really huge.

You are worried that she'll turn your daughters against you? This is what they do, the dynamic they set up: one of opposition and of conflict. If you're not on my side, you're against me.

She needs to be right the whole time? She'll keep on getting at you until you've given in? She's setting up a conflict there, but you've seen through it now. And you have your own feelings about this ('I can't stand it much longer'), which is another big thing, as they don't want you to have any opinions/feelings of your own (that would be something that could, quite possibly, be in opposition to their opinions and feelings).

There are a couple of threads on this forum written by worried parents/grandparents with children caught up in the middle of it all. It might help you to read them, give you some ideas on how to deal with things, and help you feel less alone too.

Hope that helps. And please ask anything you like. I know I've not answered everything and I know I've left a lot of gaps, suddenly very tired from thinking about it all (but please don't worry, I've been away from mine for half my life now). I'll try and write some more later.

I have a hard time coping. I feel like I am the obsessive type. I have been trying to 'distract' myself but it all leads back to him, wondering what he is doing, who he is going to lure in next.

I had an ultrasound done last week and I was thinking of sending him a photo. Magical thinking. He cut me out so easily after I left, he would probably just tear up the photograph. As someone who is extremely emotional, I can't understand how he would be able to do this, especially since I am pregnant.

Also: is it normal to feel like you are the psychopath sometimes? I think of our past a lot lately, and he just drove me so hysterically crazy, I would do horrible things like threaten him if he didn't leave me alone. When he cut me out of his life, I was so furious, I spoke a lot of words in anger. I am doubting myself constantly.

I have a question? Does the no contact rule apply to total rage?!...Like running him over a couple of times ?!...Oh how I would love to.....does that count!.... I can't even express my hatred towards the things he did to me....it's so aggravating!...to say the least....I want to ....well you know.

menaed, what you are going through is totally normal!! Evrrything you wrote I was going through, word by word!

You are human, you think and act like human. This is human! What they do is robot-like. Un-human.

You may feel like a psychopath as well. His goal is to make you feel like one, and make you look like one. These people are gonna do anything, literally anything to hurt you. It may not always be on purpose, but thats even more to fear. Cut everything that attaches you to him. I know its too hard to think about it right now - but try with anything. Something small, maybe, a photo, a gift anything. Just throw it out thinking you're throwing it out of your mind. And force yourself to never think of it again.

What I've done (and still do) and found very helpful was something I called "overwrite". Anytime I went to places that reminded me of him (no matter if good or bad memories) - I tried to scan the place and make a memory of sth new that happened there. Like just today - I am in a new city, and met with a friend, and we met at this well known place, and when I got there, I got upset and really sad for a moment, because I saw just this one bank that we (me and the Psychopath) sat on this one time... But then I realized, this is MY place, this is MY spot. Im not gonna let him here anymore. So I looked around to find my friend and there she was. And from now on, its not a place where me and the Psychopath would sit that one time. It is the place where I met with my friend, and thats how Im gonna remember it!

Of course, you have a child. Thats tough. I cannot even begin to try and understand how you must feel about it. But I would recommend trying to think of it as YOUR child. Your, and thats it.

If you try hard enough, beautiful things will happen to you. I am living proof!You can handle it! And whenever you feel like you cant, we're here for you!

I am new to this site and sorry to know that so meny people lives have been destroyed or damaged by a Psychopath. My life has been destroyed complety.I have been trying to cope for three years. So far, for me anyway is to take one day at a time and to read as much as I can. I read or lissen to others as well. See friends. Depending on the Psychopath most people have a diffrent story. If it would help to say that "The Psychopath will never walk in the Kindom of Heaven"

I think that is what hurts us victims of psychopaths the most. Beyond how we have been deceived, abused and even psychologically tortured by these people... we feel like undeserving citizens when we start to feel homicidal, like we are bad people for wanting the pain to stop, wanting the psychopaths to stop hurting us.

Just remember, it is perfectly healthy to have these thoughts under the right circumstance, we are merely trying to cope with a self defence mechanism, as long as we do not act upon it (turn the thought into action) then we are not endangering ourselves or other people. In reality the terrible thoughts of hurting that person (the psychopath) is your subconscious effort through the self defence mechanism of violence methods to end the conflict.

If only they'd just stop when we say so, we would not need to lower ourselves to that level.

These 'people', these psychopaths, will one day understand what real pain is, and I hope they suffer for a long time, before they have a chance to have what they deprived us of for so so long.

A normal and healthy life before we one day cease to exist, before we die.

HiIv been on here days now reading everything and i just want to tell you how i love this post of yours..I let my Psychopath go 4 days ago now...Everything made sense when i realised WHAT i was dealing with...I let go...stopped fighting...and realised my closure would take time and would come from me and only me beacause he could not comprehend or feel such closure..Closure is simply a process that will take time and everyone differs from the time scale. Mine began when i realised firstly that he never loved me, he never would, because he was totally incapable..His rejection became my obession because the dream had gone and i so wanted him to love me...After all i truely beleived he did..so where did it all go ??? surely i could get it back??? when you realise it was all crap, a fairytale they put in our heads and of course THE SEX...This isnt mentioned alot on here but sex for them is a massive weapon of destruction..My Psychopath used to make me shake and shiver in absolute joy..Sex with him was amazing...I thought it was for him too until i found out how often he used prostitutes...that was a real killer..it nearly destroyed me...But it didnt...Im out..im aware...and i need to stay on here and stay strong and beleive what a truely amazing woman i am...because i am which is something he missed.........his loss eh ????xxx

A psychopath will never understand love, thats why they are so sad all their lives. Their lives make no sense at all, they can see other people in joy and dont even understand it. Imagine you were watching the world from outside, through a glass wall, not able to participate. That's what life has got to be for psychopaths.

Mine was a former adjunct at my University. For my safety and that of my family, I dropped off the face of the earth, and moved away. I also have a wonderful Forensic Psychologist who has been helpful, and a lawyer (who is still struggling to serve mine, with a restraining order. Mine alters their name, and seems to never be where they are supposed to be, to get served legal papers.)

I would highly suggest finding a therapist experienced with Psychopathy. They are few and far between, also at times expensive. The problem isn't just healing from your encounter, but avoiding future re-victimization. Once we encounter one, it's like a neon "24 hour, all you can eat" sign, lights up on our foreheads.

As mentioned, my research has revealed that women who love psychopaths (and other Cluster B personality disordered individuals) possess rather unique and extraordinary 'super traits' of temperament that make them the perfect target/victim of the psychopath. While the following does not cover all of her traits, these were the ones most highly elevated and were thus likely contributing factors:

Traits are listed on site in a picture - go and look

I think that we can all agree that these sound like outstanding women in all respects! These stellar qualities don't look like a problem at first glance, but some of these traits were measured in the range of 97% higher than average, proving that even too much of a good thing can be bad. What happens when you put all this together:

You get inevitable harm. You get fabulous women who love deeply, who have a big heart, who get much out of their relationships and who tend to trust openly because they believe that everyone on the planet is as good and decent and loving as they are. What's more, their super-traits make them able to hold to that belief in the face of some of the most horrifying evidence to the contrary imaginable. http://www.sott.net/article/228663-The-Unexamined-Victim-Women-Who-Love-Psychopaths

this was an amazing source of information for me. Thank you for putting it on this forumn. I have been working on detatching and was looking at AlAnon but kept feeling like I wasn't really codependent. This other information regarding personality traits was spot on! That our core personality traits led us to be victims is scary as we are not likely to change our core beliefs about life and the way we view the world (even after all of this I have to keep reminding myself that my "Psychopath" tried to kill me,and that his nice behavior is because he is being watched due to divorce proceedings)Again, thank you.

I have been married for 31 years to my "Psychopath". I fled 6 months ago because I realized he had begun poisoning me. I am now getting ready to divorce him and need help in learning how to best approach this. I have tried to meet face to face and mediate an agreement, I was sucked back into wanting to go back to him. I am 2 weeks "Psychopath" free (the way to be)I have met with two attorneys, one is a female and she is willing to work out an agreement with him w/o going to court. Problem is I have no job and he is in the house. I am living with my son.The second attorney is male and is his practice follows the traditional route; file for spousal support, settle if possible for 50% and alimony/ and his retirement plan.

Problem is my counselor says that my "Psychopath" is just as likely to kill me than pay alimony and any part of his retirement plan. I am 50 he is 56.

Has anyone divorced their "Psychopath"??? What worked for you? At this point I wish I could put the two together and find someone who was forceful, yet willing to be a little flexible in their thinking.

I have been married for 31 years to my "Psychopath". I fled 6 months ago because I realized he had begun poisoning me. I am now getting ready to divorce him and need help in learning how to best approach this. I have tried to meet face to face and mediate an agreement, I was sucked back into wanting to go back to him. I am 2 weeks "Psychopath" free (the way to be)I have met with two attorneys, one is a female and she is willing to work out an agreement with him w/o going to court. Problem is I have no job and he is in the house. I am living with my son.The second attorney is male and is his practice follows the traditional route; file for spousal support, settle if possible for 50% and alimony/ and his retirement plan.

Problem is my counselor says that my "Psychopath" is just as likely to kill me than pay alimony and any part of his retirement plan. I am 50 he is 56.

Has anyone divorced their "Psychopath"??? What worked for you? At this point I wish I could put the two together and find someone who was forceful, yet willing to be a little flexible in their thinking.

Would love to hear from others who have been there.

When I divorced my husband the word Psychopath was not in my vocabulary, only in my life... He began to openly plan my murder when I became pregnant with our 1st child. He become possessed with murder, he watched it on TV and made jokes about body disposal-my body disposal all the time. After I left him and stayed a week in domestic violence shelter I was 22 he had been beating me for 7 years. The battering and murder plotting became public. He covered his ass and went with me to marriage counseling. The Dx MAJOR DEPESSION---mine. He was insistent he didn't want a zombie wife. The beating stopped for a while but the mind games got worse. I become one of his children and spent much of that time in my room planning my suicide. I was hospitalized at 32 and places on antidepressants. My daughter said that daddy cried that 1st night that I was in the hospital as I tight this I realize what My daughter saw a love was really disappointment at losing the game. I have now been divorced for 15 years 3 were spent in a bottle fighting the flashbacks of abuse. There was a time in my marriage that my husband displayed his trophies bits of jewelry hanging of his rearview mirror of his truck. He said they were items that belong to the girlfriend of a co worker. It was easier to believe the souvenirs of a traveling serial killer than sexual trophies. Ironically I read a few years back of unsolved murders in the area he traveled for his work lol so who knows. My fear also was death over alimony. What I have learned is CAST LIGHT ON EVERY SHADOW-KEEP NO SECRETS-I receive SSI for PTSD caused by his abuse and life long Alimony because I am disabled as the result of my marriage. The TRUTH is my protection....GOOD LUCK

Hi toomuchstuff, so very glad you are at least at a safe distance, thanks for sharing more of your story. I have often wondered over the years how many of these Psychopath's that our community has talked about have killed people. Don't want to sound dark but it has crossed my mind on many occasion. I don't think one day someone just wakes up and plots to kill the person next to them or if it is the first time they will do it again.

I am amazed you get lifetime alimony usually this is something they worm out of. Do you have any thing you can share how you were able to get it? Hope your kids are doing well.

I was not able to even bring the issue of domestic violence to the courts I had no police reports. I applied for disability after I divorced and with the help of social security we were to piece together a strong case to support PTSD. My ex-husband would beat me then rape me sometime holding me at gun point for up to 8 hours. My SSI worker told me that domestic violence was a primary source of women over 40 being unable to work. If I am fully disabled for what ever reason in my state my ex spouse has to pay for life long alimony. The other way is if your spouse tries to kill you. My disability supports both arguments.

The amount I receive is quite small but I earned it. Yes it has effected my kids who are bonded to their dad . In the beginning I divorced all of then. I have not spoken to my ex or his family for 15 years and I do not intend to. I had never heard of no contact it was just that he was such a liar that cut off all ability to manipulate me.....I had to do the same with my children I love them but they are not allowed to be hurtful to me PERIOD. I have had to grow a lot. I still find myself with men who are user. I have in the last year studied about Psychopaths and narcissists. I believe it's not personal. they take what they take and the do what they do. I just ended my 3rd psychopathic relationship. I am getting out quicker. My first was 21 years My 2nd was 5 years this last one, less than 6 months. When I miss this last one, I remind myself he is basically a hologram that lives in a soap bubble . I picture myself balancing the bubble over my hand and I talk to it. I say What you did was wrong T. You are not wired to love anyone and you create harm. You can't see the problem and I can't fix you. Then I blow my breath against the bubble and it goes away.....

I keep reading all your stories and I see bits and pieces of my life and I am grateful to be alive.

In response to the issue of murder I think for Psychopath's it is the peak game of power and control. The 1st time he held me at gun point I remember flashing on those animal kill animal TV shows and I thought don't let him see you week. So I didn't fight or cry and beg I just focused on keeping my eyes open, not flinching or showing fear. I wasn't going to let him enjoy my death....I think murder is addicting aswell as the adrenaline around it.

My Psychopath is a public figure who has turned my friends and relatives against me. In short, I have no power, he has a lot. They are under his spell, as I was. He projects all of his own qualities onto me, but how can I possibly explain that to my relatives? He is much smarter than I am, and much more charismatic. I feel despairing about the situation. He has brain-washed my friends and relatives, so I am quite isolated. I have reached out to them repeatedly to appeal to their good sense...to no effect. It's collective insanity. Any suggestions?