So here's the deal. Fury's submitted talent, the new defender conjured weapon "Shield of Valor," doesn't work like he wished after I messed with it. Seems pointless to add in someone's suggestion if they don't like the result, so I'm open to messing with it, but the both of us have a long list of reasons why it should or shouldn't work this way or that - but now that it's a public talent, we'd like to call on help, suggestions and preferences from the rest of the community. Here's the thought process so far:

Fury's Original

[-7] Sentinel's Shield - Minor UtilityYou conjure a Sentinel Shield in your hands. You can dismiss the Sentinel Shield as a free action. While you are wielding a Sentinel Shield, you cannot use your normal combat talents. Instead you may use the combat talents below.

Trait - Protector’s VowWhenever you use a Standard or Minor talent, select one ally, they gain an Guardian Mark until the start of your next turn on the next round.

[+3] Bunker Down - Standard UtilityGain Resist 3 until the end of your next turn, and heal 3 HP

[+1] Shield Smash - Standard AttackDeal 1d10 damage to target creature, if roll and 8 or more, then the creature is stunned until the end of their next turn.

[-2] Super Defender - Immediate InterruptTrigger – An ally is targeted by an attack.Affect: The triggering attack hits you instead. If target ally has a Guardian Mark, you may remove that mark to increase your Resist by 2 for this attack

[-3] Absorb - Immediate InterruptTrigger - Multiple Allies with Guardian Marks would be hit by the same attackEffect: Remove all Guardian Marks on target allies, then the attack hits you instead, The attack is treated as multiple attacks.

Current Official Version

[-7] Shield of Valor - Minor UtilityYou conjure a Shield of Valor in your hands. You can dismiss the Shield of Valor as a free action. While you are wielding a Shield of Valor, you cannot use your normal combat talents. Instead you may use the combat talents below.

Guardian’s Oath - TraitYou may use “Guardian’s Duty” without paying its energy cost if the ally targeted by the triggering attack is subjected to your “Guardian’s Oath.”

[+3] Guardian’s Vow - Standard UtilityUp to two target allies are subject to your “Guardian’s Oath” until the end of your next turn. You also gain 1d4 temporary hp.

[+2] Shield Bash - Standard AttackDeal 1d6 damage to target creature, and it takes a -5 penalty to damage until the end of its next turn.

[+1] Stand Tall - Standard UtilityYou take half damage until the end of your next turn, and target ally is subjected to your “Guardian’s Oath” until the end of your next turn.

[-3] Under the Aegis - Immediate InterruptTrigger - Multiple allies would be hit by the same attackEffect - The attack hits only you instead. The Shield of Valor vanishes.

Reasons for Changes

- Minor actions on conjured weapons are to be avoided, because of Motion Blur. Technically, so are Interrupts and Reactions, but they felt fairly necessary for this weapon, while Draining Shield seemed unnecessary. And before you bring up Hurricane Blade... it's a relic, and really an example of how we shouldn't build conjured weapons.- I felt the potential of the Guardian Mark was under served by your implementation. You wanted it to be the trait's marginal advantage, but it felt like a secondary piece of the weapon used to maybe shave off a few points of damage if you picked the right allies. Rather, I thought a far more interesting implementation was the ability to defend for free allies you had to pick ahead of time. And once I began doing it that way, why have the trait auto-apply it when I could balance it in as part of each talent? It then made sense to have a +3 whose effect was simply adding marks - originally it applied 3, but I felt that might've been a bit extreme in a 4 person party where you could just take everything for everyone. Perhaps I played it a bit to safe with the value of adding marks, maybe we'll buff the capabilities on it a bit in time with some playtesting, but the basic setup of the weapon I feel is better for those reasons. - Shield Bash having a chance to stun was very swing-y, and making it a penalty to damage instead allowed me to be much more precise in my math, while keeping the same basic identity as a damage+disarm move. I would've gone with Dazed, frankly, but it's in flux right now so I didn't want to have to wait on releasing the shield until that was sorted out. Defenders, I think, would generally rather rely on something... more reliable than something with a chance of being huge that's otherwise meh.- At the cost of the shield vanishing, Absorb could be fair as a simple "AoE shield," and I like keeping to the ult-costing-the-weapon theme - made it easy to declare fair, too, and easy to phrase more simply than trying to explain how every hit is a multiple attack and stuff... that was something I can't see being in the official system, because I don't see a super-clear way to phrase it - but I was okay with it for your house-rule version, because you and your DM clearly agreed on it's function - things being official require greater scrutiny on phrasing. Maybe it could afford to be -2, but I decided to play it safe and buff it later if need be, rather than risk having to nerf anything.- A half-damage ability instead of the resist on Bunker Down means it stacks much better for those who already have high resist by armor or something

Fury's Rebuttle

The two of them have subtle, but very important differences.

For both of them, the marks are a very important part of the shield, through for very different reasons. Your marks, only effect 1 of the 2 defender talents. While mine effects them both. Your's have to use specific talents to apply the marks. Mine places marks no matter the talent.

Your AoE Shield makes it vanish, but effects everyone. Mine doesn't vanish, but only effects a certain amount of people.

Your Shield has no Resist. Mine Does.

Your shield cannot activate a single crit, mine can.

These differences have a HUGE effect on the play-style of the shield. For example, your person will have to make a significant choice between who gets marks, and buffing their own defenses. The fact that you can use the Defender without PiP cost, and the AoE only works once, significantly reduces the synergy of one of the greatest armours for a defender-like character. Lightning Cowl. Let me give you an example.

The character has lightning cowl, and as your normally level 3, and have at least 1 trait. Lets also give him Rapid Recovery.

He begins the turn with 0 PiP's. He's low on health, so he harden's his defenses. For me, that would be Bunker Down. Giving him Resist 3. Which can 100% negate damage. For you, half damage. Better when your taking 8 damage or more. Both of them mark a target. I have 4 PiP's. You have 2. With Lightning Cowl, I can defend 4 times. You can only defend 3 times. Only 2 of which proc Lightning Cowl. Sure, you could of used your +3, and defend for a total of 6 times. But then, you have no extra defenses, so you'll be taking significantly more damage than me. Who would be taking 12 less damage than you thanks to his resist, not taking into account the possible resist increase due to his mark.

This is just one example of how the play-styles has a significant difference. I could go on much longer as to why the two shields are very different in their playstyles. But, I think I've said enough of that. Instead, I will go forth to make a shield that we both like, and can be official. Combining ideas from the both of us. So, without further ado. What do you think of this shield?

[-7] Sentinel's Shield - Minor UtilityYou conjure a Sentinel Shield in your hands. You can dismiss the Sentinel Shield as a free action. While you are wielding a Sentinel Shield, you cannot use your normal combat talents. Instead you may use the combat talents below.

Trait - Protector’s VowWhenever you use a Standard talent, select one ally, they gain an Guardian Mark until the start of your next turn.

[+3] Bunker Down - Standard UtilityGain Resist 2 until the end of your next turn. Select one ally, they gain a Guardian Mark.

[+1] Shield Smash - Standard AttackDeal 1d8 damage to target enemy, they receive a -3 penalty to damage until the end of your next turn.

[-2] Super Defender - Immediate InterruptTrigger – An ally is targeted by an attack.Affect: The triggering attack hits you instead. If target ally has a Guardian Mark, you may remove that mark to increase your Resist by 2 for this attack

[-3] Absorb - Immediate InterruptTrigger - Multiple Allies with Guardian Marks and one ally without a Guardian Mark would be hit by the same attackEffect: Remove all Guardian Marks on target allies, then the attack hits you instead.

[0] Ultimate Sacrifice - Immediate InterruptTrigger - An ally is knocked unconscious Effect: They are set to 30 health and 4 PiP's. Your health is then decreased to the amount required to knock you out.

My Response

Ultimate sacrifice is interesting, and I rather like it. I understand the thinking on lightning cowl, but I still don't like the way Guardian's Mark is resist 2, rather than something more extreme and central. Perhaps we could at least balance for more marks but have it be a -1 reduction in pip cost, which would allow Lightning Cowl to still come in handy. I just really think it's cooler if the marks make that ally easier/cheaper to defend.It's interesting, really, that your version I noticed didn't meld well with Resistance armor, but you dislike the way mine doesn't work with Lightning Cowl.To at least fix the resist part, however, I would not be opposed to balancing a move that creates resistance or increases present resist.

For absorb, I see your point. It would make sense if it cared about the mark, but I don't really want it to only apply to allies with the mark, since I like the idea of a simple "AoE blocker." So what I propose, then, is that it's Absorb which does what it does, then you get some kind of a bonus for each ally you blocked that had a GM, like gaining an amount of THP for each of them, or giving them THP or something.

Fury's Response

Well, you can only have 2 armors with the armour talent. And there is 2 armors which are a must have for any tank. Lighting Cowl, and Displacement Armour. Resist is good and all, but Displacement Armour, might not be as consistent, but its just... better. Its 6k gold for a reason.

Its ironic that your suggesting now for the mark to reduce the PiP cost by 1, when that's what it was originally and you said it wasn't a good idea when I first contacted you.

Still. It works fine for me, and you do have a good point about Abosrb as well... through I think if it effects everyone without disappearing, shouldn't it be upped to 4 PiP cost?

So... with the changes in place... we have...

[-7] Sentinel's Shield - Minor UtilityYou conjure a Sentinel Shield in your hands. You can dismiss the Sentinel Shield as a free action. While you are wielding a Sentinel Shield, you cannot use your normal combat talents. Instead you may use the combat talents below.

Trait - Protector’s VowWhenever you use a Standard talent, select one ally, they gain an Guardian Mark until the start of your next turn.

[+3] Bunker Down - Standard UtilityGain Resist 2 until the end of your next turn. Select one ally, they gain a Guardian Mark.

[+1] Shield Smash - Standard AttackDeal 1d8 damage to target enemy, they receive a -3 penalty to damage until the end of your next turn.

[-2] Guardian's Duty - Immediate InterruptTrigger – An ally is targeted by an attack.Affect: The triggering attack hits you instead. If target ally has a Guardian Mark, you may remove that mark to reduce the PiP cost of this move by 1.

[-3/4] Under the Ageis - Immediate InterruptTrigger - Multiple allies would be hit by the same attackEffect: The attack hits you instead. If any of the allies have a Guardian Mark, you may remove that mark to give you and the marked ally 2 temporary HP

[0] Ultimate Sacrifice - Immediate InterruptTrigger - An ally is knocked unconsciousEffect: They are set to 30 health and 4 PiP's. Your health is then decreased to the amount required to knock you out.

My Response

To be fair, I had said it wasn't a good idea when the marks weren't balanced as part of the moves - it would work if we account for the pip discount as a part of the action value, which is what I had done for the official version

Another thing I have to mention is that having both Lightning Cowl and Displacer Armor is 11'000 gold, so even if those two are the idea, lower level character might still invest in, say, Banded Armor or something, so you can't just discount the value of players already having resist.

Kindulas wrote:Another thing I have to mention is that having both Lightning Cowl and Displacer Armor is 11'000 gold, so even if those two are the idea, lower level character might still invest in, say, Banded Armor or something, so you can't just discount the value of players already having resist.

True enough, through there is many, many options.

Personally, I would go for something like Energizing Amulet or such instead of Banded Armour, so that I can benefit for the Resist increases.

I'd personally say that the problem with Fury's version is that having these Garden Marks trigger by every standard action... Well let's say that you got your weapon triggered, then you get lucky and somebody triggers that Be Prepared d12 special... Then they can do any standard action they own then gain marks for their allies... Which would be totally wrong to do in my book. Sure this would be a rare event. But just being possible event kinda would bug me. Though I'd guess the shield would work better if it had more talents that delt with making those Marks. But I don't think having the trait be just "every standard action" gives marks would be the way to do things.

Also I'd think Weapon Talents are better off with some type of vanish talent... Unless it comes with a drawback (like Blood Weapon, but it could use a vanish move like the suggested edit for it that theMatthew made) or is a trait given talent (the one that dan made, that I hope some verison of that get's turned 100% official).

Xel Unknown wrote:Also I'd think Weapon Talents are better off with some type of vanish talent... Unless it comes with a drawback (like Blood Weapon, but it could use a vanish move like the suggested edit for it that theMatthew made) or is a trait given talent (the one that dan made, that I hope some verison of that get's turned 100% official).

Technically, you lose your conjured weapon when you get knocked out, so Ultimate Sacrifice fits that roll...

Xel Unknown wrote:I'd personally say that the problem with Fury's version is that having these Garden Marks trigger by every standard action... Well let's say that you got your weapon triggered, then you get lucky and somebody triggers that Be Prepared d12 special... Then they can do any standard action they own then gain marks for their allies...

I... don't get how that works.

Paper Shadow wrote:

Xel Unknown wrote:Also I'd think Weapon Talents are better off with some type of vanish talent... Unless it comes with a drawback (like Blood Weapon, but it could use a vanish move like the suggested edit for it that theMatthew made) or is a trait given talent (the one that dan made, that I hope some verison of that get's turned 100% official).

Technically, you lose your conjured weapon when you get knocked out, so Ultimate Sacrifice fits that roll...

Xel Unknown wrote:I'd personally say that the problem with Fury's version is that having these Garden Marks trigger by every standard action... Well let's say that you got your weapon triggered, then you get lucky and somebody triggers that Be Prepared d12 special... Then they can do any standard action they own then gain marks for their allies...

I... don't get how that works.

When someone uses the Be Prepared 12 Crit, you gain access to all your own combat talents. If you are using a Conjured Weapon or in a Conjured Form, you keep the weapon or form and still gain access to your other talents. What Xel is saying is that, because the trait says that whenever you use a standard action you apply a mark, as opposed to a standard action the shield provided you, if you had all your talents, any standard action will apply a mark, even offensive ones and whatnot...

I liked how standard actions added a mark, as it grants significant synergy actions that allow you an addition standard action, like Pincer Movement & Royal Command, but that's... even more... I'll say that's a feature really.

A tank is good and all, but they aren't solo-fighters, so have strong team-synergy is a plus to me, they work as part of a team, not someone simply doing his own thing.

Xel Unknown wrote:I'd personally say that the problem with Fury's version is that having these Garden Marks trigger by every standard action... Well let's say that you got your weapon triggered, then you get lucky and somebody triggers that Be Prepared d12 special... Then they can do any standard action they own then gain marks for their allies...

I... don't get how that works.

When someone uses the Be Prepared 12 Crit, you gain access to all your own combat talents. If you are using a Conjured Weapon or in a Conjured Form, you keep the weapon or form and still gain access to your other talents. What Xel is saying is that, because the trait says that whenever you use a standard action you apply a mark, as opposed to a standard action the shield provided you, if you had all your talents, any standard action will apply a mark, even offensive ones and whatnot...

Whether you consider that a problem or a feature is up to you...

Be Prepared Supersedes the "Pick 5" rule, but not the "You cannot use your normal combat talents" rule.

Really? Pretty sure it was said in the Simple Questions thread that you gain access to all your combat talents if you are already in your form or weapon. If you aren't and you enter a form, you do lose access, but if you gain access while in the form you gain them...

Really? Pretty sure it was said in the Simple Questions thread that you gain access to all your combat talents if you are already in your form or weapon. If you aren't and you enter a form, you do lose access, but if you gain access while in the form you gain them...

One of the things I liked more about Kins version than Fury's is that the marks entirely reduce the guard effect to 0, I don't like the idea that you have to talk lightning cowl in order to make this work. That is alot of gold that I'd rather spend elsewhere, or don't have access to at all when I'm low level.

I like the 0 cost too, but I DO understand the dissatisfaction with it not working with LC at all.IF we do the 1 pip reduction and make the marks cheaper, we largely get the best of both, then we just need to... hey that's a thought... we could have the highest + ability be a +4 ability, accounted for the marks as 1 pip - a mark would probably be worth 1/2 a pip if we do Fury's way of having the marks be 1-time things, that way you would get 1 pip off at the cost of 1/2 a pip value and having to pick the ally ahead of time. A +4 ability with -1 pip for marks mean Lightning Cowl is useful, and even without lightning cowl you can get a LOT of pips with which to use reactions (Like Hellspike Armor, amiright Chad?)

I had made it so that the marks don't leave once you defend the ally, because I liked the idea that you could mark an ally and just keep blocking him, but frankly Fury's temp-marks are easier to balance, which is a huge plus. And hey, the "Mark an ally, keep blocking" could be a combat talent of it's own. Which, actually, is kind of Marty's Blessing. Maybe a Shield as a weapon that can mark an ally 1/Round to auto-block attacks for...

Not replacing the conjured weapon, of course, but how does this look:Sentinel's Shield - 3000 GoldWeaponAt the beginning of your turn, you may choose an ally. Until the start of your next turn, whenever that ally would be targeted by an attack, you may have the attack target you instead.

Fury of the Tempest wrote:A +4 ability? Hmmm, that could work, through I'm not sure what it would be...

Additionally, is it possible to make the AoE shield a [-X] Where you have to pay more PiP's to defend more people? Might be hard to balance, but it does make more sense...

That probably is feasible... I personally still prefer it costing the shield, but I take it you really dislike that?As for Utlimate Sacrifice, it is a bit much that it's auto full-everything. Probably like, they get the pips and hp you had left.

Still, my only issue with US is that I like having the 3-standard spread of "Talent that mostly just marks a bunch of allies," "Defensive talent that marks one" and "Offensive/Disarm talent that doesn't." Buuuut what do you guys prefer?

Yeah, I really, really dislike the AoE shield making the shield disappear.

You do have a point about US, it is a bit too powerful. Through at the same time, I really like how your suggestion can actually benefit more. Sure, you having 30 health is going to be rare, and you can't go over it. But it is possible to have more than 4 PiP's, which I like.

Fury of the Tempest wrote:Yeah, I really, really dislike the AoE shield making the shield disappear.

You do have a point about US, it is a bit too powerful. Through at the same time, I really like how your suggestion can actually benefit more. Sure, you having 30 health is going to be rare, and you can't go over it. But it is possible to have more than 4 PiP's, which I like.

True true, and as a [0] power, it would be a bit much to allow it to net-gain for the party - but if they get what you had, the party resources are unchanged.

Personally I liked the first official version of this item the most. As I've said not a fan of that trait you give the talent. And it seems cooler to me that you could do a free defender for an ally when need be.

Also every one of Fury's suggestions seem to be built with one min-maxed build in mind for it's use. While the official version can work with more the just one type of tank build.

Lastly most of this seems like Fury is just whining over his talent being edited at all by somebody other then himself.

The attacks and utilities are in most cases much more useful and frankly more balanced.Th +3 move gives free protection to almost half of most partiesBash gives a damage penalty making any resist much more powerful in addition to gaining more pipsThe +1 in essence weakens any enemy that hits you and it stacks with weaken enough said.The original's mechanic of removing marks is well not that useful a small bump in resist or well almost ensured KO or Coma with any multi-target big enough to actually need to block. Ultimate Sacrifice is a good idea but the method of direct transfer would be better.

Also I feel that most of the counter points brought up by Fury are not of that much issue due to well only thinking with a interrupt focused tank in mind rather than also thinking of resist based or targeting based tanks.

One more thing why does it referrer to energy? The community has protested this naming or did you miss that?

Xel Unknown wrote:Personally I liked the first official version of this item the most. As I've said not a fan of that trait you give the talent. And it seems cooler to me that you could do a free defender for an ally when need be.

Also every one of Fury's suggestions seem to be built with one min-maxed build in mind for it's use. While the official version can work with more the just one type of tank build.

A free defender at level 1 is very powerful through. Sure, it feels awesome. But at the same time, shouldn't you feel cooler the more levels you climb? I mean, what is cooler feeling? Having a free defender at level 1, and only improving the non-free one's with PiP costs, or having a -1 defender at level 1, and improving both the -1 defender and the non -1 ones with PiP cost? This is on top of being able to use the AoE shield multiple times, AND having the ability to trade your life for someone's else.

And really, what do you mean the official version can work with more than just one type of tank build? Lets have a look at the other defensive items. Defensive Blade, works well for both. Lifebound/Hierophant Armour still works, Spiked/Hellspike Armour works. Okay, Banded armour doesn't work, neither does normal plate. Banded Guardian & Mithril Fullplate still work, don't work as WELL, but they still do so

So, no. The shield doesn't JUST work for one 'min-maxed' build. It can work well with almost any build. However, it also scales better with levels more than the current shield AND has a much stronger INNATE tankieness as well. The Resist & - damage penalty can completely negate damage, and you

can use the AoE shield multiple times. For the current shield, you have to choose between marking 2 people, doing damage & reducing their damage or marking 1 guy and reducing damage. For my shield, you always get at LEAST 1 mark no matter what you do, and always reduce the enemies damage

Not to mention that in smaller battles where there is only 1-2 allies, unlimited free defenders on them is pretty broken, and we do have to balance for the small groups as well as the big.

tygerburningbright wrote:Also I feel that most of the counter points brought up by Fury are not of that much issue due to well only thinking with a interrupt focused tank in mind rather than also thinking of resist based or targeting based tanks.

... What other type of tanks are there?! You HAVE to use interupts in order to be a tank! A resist based tank is good and all, but can't do anything without interrupts, and what is a targetting based tank?!

tygerburningbright wrote:The original's mechanic of removing marks is well not that useful a small bump in resist or well almost ensured KO or Coma with any multi-target big enough to actually need to block.

Which is why the talent has been changed from the original so the removing marks are much more useful, and much more powerful.

I didn't say it can't work with other builds... Just said that your talents are build to work to their best with one build in mind.

When it comes to tanks I'd say there are three (or four) major types one can play in this system: Meatshield, Last-Man, High-Threat-Level(might or might not count, to me I'd count it but you might not), and Punishing builds... Meatshield Tanks are built to try and take every attack and force every attack they can to hit them. Last-Man Tanks are mostly just a tank built to last the longest of the party and deal an at least ok amount of damage to destroy the enemy's last bits of HP. High-Threat-Level Tanks might not count as tanks to you, and more depend on dealing damage purely and basically are built to both be able to take damage and deal it, therefore it's the smartest for the enemy to target them first taking hits off of the rest the party. Punishing Tanks are built to make it that if the enemy doesn't hit them that bad things happen, like they get hit with damage, attack with less power, or something like that.

And Tanks don't even need to be just one of those types, they mix them however they want or even try to think up a new way to play. But I'd say any build that can take a good deal of damage counts as a tank...