GOD'S SABBATH AND THE REAL TRUTH OF COL 2:14-17 WHO DO WE BELIEVE GOD or MAN?

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Senior Member

17. Paul never repremanded anyone for obeying God's law. Instead, he repremanded
new gentile converts, the Galatians, who were trying to be justified by the law,
instead of faith in Jesus Christ.

18. The Galatians, who Paul was repremanding for trying to be justified by the law, were going back to serving other gods after they were circumcised. This is why Paul
had to explain that the works of the law can't earn your salvation.

5. Again Paul said that we don't nullify the law of God by our faith in Jesus Christ.

Your point 18 is false. I think you need to re read Galatians and cf. Acts 15. Galatians 2:3 disproves your theory. I am afraid like all legalists you are peddling in falsehoods.

Now lets have a look at your point number 17! what? Have you actually read the book of Galatians. have a quick glance at Gal 2:11 -14.

Your post is very dangerous indeed.

Anyhow.

An exposition of Romans 10:4, which says: "Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes," will help in understanding what is means that Christians are not under the law. The apostle Paul clarifies the effects of original sin in Romans 2:12, stating "All who sin apart from the law will perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law." All men stand condemned before God, whether they are Jews or not, or to put it another way, whether they have the Law of God or not. Paul also states "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23).

If we are without Christ, we are justly condemned in God’s sight by the Law that was given to His servant Moses. However, we might argue that those who are not Jewish and therefore do not benefit from the knowledge of the Mosaic Law (including the moral and ceremonial laws), should not be condemned in the same way. This is dealt with by the Apostle in Romans 2:14-15, where he states that the Gentiles have the essence of God’s legal requirements already ingrained and so are just as much without excuse.

The Law is the issue that has to be dealt with in order to bring us into a right relationship with God. "Know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified" (Galatians 2:16). This passage reveals that the Law cannot justify or make righteous any man in God’s sight, which is why God sent His Son to completely fulfil the requirements of the Law for all those who would ever believe in Him.

Christ Jesus redeemed us from the curse that has been brought through the law by becoming a curse for us (Galatians 3:13). He substituted Himself in our place and upon the cross took the punishment that is justly ours so that we are no longer under the curse of the Law. In doing so, He fulfilled and upheld the requirements of the Law. This does not mean that Christians are to be lawless, as some advocate today—a teaching called antinomianism. Rather, it means that we are free from the Mosaic Law and instead under the law of Christ, which is to love God with all of our being and to love our neighbors as we love ourselves.

Christ became the end of the Law by virtue of what He did on earth through His sinless life and His sacrifice on the cross. So, the Law no longer has any bearing over us because its demands have been fully met in the Lord Jesus Christ. Faith in Christ who satisfied the righteous demands of the Law restores us into a pleasing relationship with God and keeps us there. No longer under the penalty of the Law, we now live under the law of grace in the love of God.

(https://www.gotquestions.org/not-under-the-law.html)

As I have said before legalism kills.

In Christ my fiend , In Christ you will find freedom from the demands of the law and be freed from it's curse. Do not put yourself back under the the legal demands as Paul warned the Galatians cf. Act 15.

Senior Member

1 Timothy 1:9-10[FONT=&quot]9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,[/FONT][FONT=&quot]10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Philippians 3:9-11
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;[/FONT][FONT=&quot]11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

2 Corinthians 3:14-16
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

Legalists and Judaizers can't understand. The scriptures even say so. No matter how much explanation and no matter how plain and simple it is they cannot get it. They are kept under the law until faith is revealed, coming to Christ.

Galatians 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

I know they've read these verses. I've posted them many times. But with understanding? No.

But imagine how beautiful it is when an ex-legalist comes to Christ and gains understanding!! Just like Paul... (whom they don't trust, lol)[/FONT]

Senior Member

maybe you should learn what [the handwriting of requirements] is,
the Holy law from God was not the curse, sorry to disapoint you.

"And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh,
He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,
having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us,

which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way,
having nailed it to the cross".

-

"Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to
the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city" (Revelation 22:14).

Since it is only "those who do His commandments...{who} have the right
to enter...the city" , the ten commandments could not be "contrary to us."

Actually, it is only those who will not keep the ten com. that are denied access.
Revelation specifically shows that those who break one of at least four of
the ten commandments will be outside God's city (Revelation 22:15).

-

the ten commandments were not "nailed to the cross," what was?
Look again at what the Bible actually says (two translations):

14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us,
which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way,
having nailed it to the cross (Colossians 2:14, NKJV)

14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us,
which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way,
having nailed it to the cross.. (Colossians 2:14, NASB)

The handwriting of requirements (often also called the hand-writing of ordinances)
or certificate of debt was wiped away and nailed to the stake, which some call a cross

Which requirements were wiped out?

the expression "the handwriting of requirements" (cheirógrafon toís dógmasin)
is a Greek legal expression that signifies the penalty which a lawbreaker had to pay

--it does not signify the laws that are to be obeyed--only the penalty. It is only through
the acceptance of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ that the penalty was wiped out
("the handwriting of requirements").

But only the penalty, not the law!

Even some Protestant commentators realize this is so. Notice what Matthew Henry's
Commentary on the Whole Bible states about Colossians 2:14:

Whatever was in force against us is taken out of the way. He has obtained for us
a legal discharge from the hand-writing of ordinances, which was against us (v. 14),
which may be understood,

1. Of that obligation to punishment in which consists the guilt of sin. The curse of the law is
the hand-writing against us, like the hand-writing on Belshazzar's wall. Cursed is every one
who continues not in every thing. This was a hand-writing which was against us, and contrary
to us; for it threatened our eternal ruin.

This was removed when he redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us,
Gal 3:13. (from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible: New Modern Edition,
Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1991 by Hendrickson Publishers, Inc.).

look at the Greek term exaleipho translated as "wiped out" in Colossians 2:14:

In other words, exaleipho has to do with wiping out sin. This is also confirmed in Acts 3:19
where Peter also uses the term exaleipho, which is translated as "blotted out" below:

19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out,
so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord.

Hence, it is sin and the related penalties that are to be blotted or wiped out.
And the penalties could vary from "being unclean to the evening" (Leviticus 11:24-28)
to making an offering (Leviticus 5:5-6) to being "cut off from his people" (Leviticus 7:27)
to the death penalty (Exodus 31:14).

This is also confirmed elsewhere in the New Testament:

13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us
(Galatians 3:13). The curse of the law is related to the penalty. And Jesus paid it.

But what about the law of God? Was the law of God to be wiped out? No:

17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets.
I did not come to destroy but to fulfill (Matthew 5:17)

While some erroneously think that Jesus, for example, did away with the Ten Commandments
by how He led His life, that most certainly was not the view of the early Christians who
continued to keep them[Paul included]

Furthermore, remember that the Bible clearly teaches that sin is lawlessness:

Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. And you know
that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. (I John 3:4-5).

Notice that Paul wrote:

Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not!
How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? (Romans 6:1-2).

Thus the New Testament makes clear that the law of God continues,
thus it was not nailed to the cross or somehow wiped out.

The Bible, however, also shows that the requirements of the Levitical priesthood
(Hebrews 9:1,6-10) sometimes called the law, which were part of the penalty of sin,
were blotted out.

And why?

"For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins...
By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus
once for all" (Hebrews 10:4,10).

Jesus' one sacrifice was and is sufficient--we do not have to sacrifice animals any more!

Another requirement (which is related) would be the death penalty of sin,
as "the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord"
(Romans 6:23) or other specific ceremonial penalties associated with the Old Testament
statutes (such as making a sin offering, being put outside the camp, or washing).

Senior Member

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 7 [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]7 What? Can anyone therefore say that the Law is sin? No! By no means! But to the contrary, I did not know sin; transgression of the Law, except through the Law, for I did not know lust, unless the Law had said: Do not covet.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]12 Therefore the Law is holy, and the commandments are holy, and just, and righteous.[/FONT]

1 Timothy 1:9-109 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Philippians 3:9-11

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

2 Corinthians 3:14-16

14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

Legalists and Judaizers can't understand. The scriptures even say so. No matter how much explanation and no matter how plain and simple it is they cannot get it. They are kept under the law until faith is revealed, coming to Christ.

Galatians 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

I know they've read these verses. I've posted them many times. But with understanding? No.

But imagine how beautiful it is when an ex-legalist comes to Christ and gains understanding!! Just like Paul... (whom they don't trust, lol)

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 6:1-2, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?"[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 7:7, Shall we therefore say that the Law is sin? No! By no means! But to the contrary, I did not know sin; transgression of the Law, except through the Law, for I did not know lust, unless the Law had said: Do not covet."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 7:12, "Therefore the Law is holy, and the commandments are holy, and just, and righteous."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Ephesians 6:2-3, "Honor your father and mother; which is the first commandment with a promise: That it may be well with you, and you may live long on the earth."

DO you realizePaul was an ex=Pharisee that grew up being taught the Talmud? and if he is saying don;t follow the Law he is a double talker, unless you isunderstand him?

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]2 Peter/Kepha 3:15-17, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."[/FONT]

Senior Member

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Acts 16:3, "Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek."[/FONT]

Senior Member

1 Timothy 1:9-109 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Philippians 3:9-11

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

2 Corinthians 3:14-16

14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

Legalists and Judaizers can't understand. The scriptures even say so. No matter how much explanation and no matter how plain and simple it is they cannot get it. They are kept under the law until faith is revealed, coming to Christ.

Galatians 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

I know they've read these verses. I've posted them many times. But with understanding? No.

But imagine how beautiful it is when an ex-legalist comes to Christ and gains understanding!! Just like Paul... (whom they don't trust, lol)

Senior Member

Romans 7 7 What? Can anyone therefore say that the Law is sin? No! By no means! But to the contrary, I did not know sin; transgression of the Law, except through the Law, for I did not know lust, unless the Law had said: Do not covet.

12 Therefore the Law is holy, and the commandments are holy, and just, and righteous.

yet the same man tht wrote that wrote this also;

Romans 3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"

Romans 6:1-2, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?"

Romans 7:7, Shall we therefore say that the Law is sin? No! By no means! But to the contrary, I did not know sin; transgression of the Law, except through the Law, for I did not know lust, unless the Law had said: Do not covet."

Romans 7:12, "Therefore the Law is holy, and the commandments are holy, and just, and righteous."

Ephesians 6:2-3, "Honor your father and mother; which is the first commandment with a promise: That it may be well with you, and you may live long on the earth."

DO you realizePaul was an ex=Pharisee that grew up being taught the Talmud? and if he is saying don;t follow the Law he is a double talker, unless you isunderstand him?

2 Peter/Kepha 3:15-17, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."

2 Corinthians 3:7[FONT=&quot]But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

[/FONT]That's not the talmud.

Galatians 3:10-12[FONT=&quot]10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

He didn't say book of the talmud. Do you think he meant talmud here?

Paul doesn't expressly say don't follow the law. Because the law is good. The problem is that we have no ability to follow a spiritual law by our carnal understanding and carnal will. We have to be changed in order to be able to follow it. And once we are changed we follow the One who changes us instead of trying to go back to a carnal understanding and carnal will of following a law we can't follow.

I don't expect you to understand this. You've just posted a bunch of verses that you don't understand.

How does Paul say that by faith we establish the law but on the other hand he says that the law is not of faith?
[/FONT]

Senior Member

2 Corinthians 3:7But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

That's not the talmud.

Galatians 3:10-1210 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

He didn't say book of the talmud. Do you think he meant talmud here?

Paul doesn't expressly say don't follow the law. Because the law is good. The problem is that we have no ability to follow a spiritual law by our carnal understanding and carnal will. We have to be changed in order to be able to follow it. And once we are changed we follow the One who changes us instead of trying to go back to a carnal understanding and carnal will of following a law we can't follow.

I don't expect you to understand this. You've just posted a bunch of verses that you don't understand.

How does Paul say that by faith we establish the law but on the other hand he says that the law is not of faith?

NO but if you know what the Talmud was you would know Paul would have felt reed from man made laws...

butI find it funny you claim I dont understand,I see al you do is quote Paul, Ive never seen you quote others with any frequency, and what about when Paul says the Law is righteous?

2 Peter/Kepha 3:15-17, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."

I believe It is those that think Paul taught not to follow the Law of the Creator is what is causing the error…

Acts 24:14, "But I confess this to you, that after the way which they call heresy, so I worship the Father of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets."

Romans 7:25, "Thanks be to YHWH, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of YHWH, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin."

Acts 21:24, "Take them, and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads. Then everyone will know that those things they were informed about you (forsaking the Law), were lies, and that you, yourself, walk orderly, and keep the Law."

Romans 3:28, "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law."

Romans 3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"

Romans 6:1-2, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?"

Romans 7:7, Shall we therefore say that the Law is sin? No! By no means! But to the contrary, I did not know sin; transgression of the Law, except through the Law, for I did not know lust, unless the Law had said: Do not covet."

Romans 7:12, "Therefore the Law is holy, and the commandments are holy, and just, and righteous."

Ephesians 6:2-3, "Honor your father and mother; which is the first commandment with a promise: That it may be well with you, and you may live long on the earth."

2 Peter/Kepha 3:15-17, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."

Do you imitate Paul as your father as he commands?

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Corinthians 4:15-16, "For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father (3962. patér) in Christ Jesus through the gospel. I urge you, then, be imitators of me."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Matthew 23:9, "And call no man your father (3962. patér) on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven."[/FONT]

Senior Member

NO but if you know what the Talmud was you would know Paul would have felt reed from man made laws...

butI find it funny you claim I dont understand,I see al you do is quote Paul, Ive never seen you quote others with any frequency, and what about when Paul says the Law is righteous?

2 Peter/Kepha 3:15-17, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."

Philippians 3:5-9[FONT=&quot]5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;[/FONT][FONT=&quot]6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,[/FONT][FONT=&quot]9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:[/FONT]

Acts 24:14, "But I confess this to you, that after the way which they call heresy, so I worship the Father of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets."

Paul is saying that following the Lord and not your own work at the law doesn't mean you don't believe in the bible.

Do you imitate Paul as your father as he commands?

1 Corinthians 4:15-16, "For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father (3962. patér) in Christ Jesus through the gospel. I urge you, then, be imitators of me."

Matthew 23:9, "And call no man your father (3962. patér) on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven."

1 Corinthians 4:15-17[FONT=&quot]15 For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]17 For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.

I guess it is explained differently in different bibles. I really think you should throw yours away. Get a good old fashioned KJV.[/FONT]

Senior Member

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]New American Standard Bible -[/FONT]
“[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The Scriptures - [/FONT]
“[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to fight with the remnant of her seed, those guarding the commands of Yah and possessing the witness of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Messiah."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]King James Bible - [/FONT]
“[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”[/FONT]

Rom. 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

This is the Old Testament where this quote is from and where the righteousness and the wrath of God is revealed.

So, as Paul declared in Acts 26, the Gospel of Christ IS the Old Testament.

Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

This would include Noah and Abraham and the rest who showed their faith by their works.

19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus,and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles,that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Same teaching for Jews and Gentiles.

21 For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me.

Same as they did to Jesus and the Prophets that came before him.

22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: Old testament writings.

The Apostles kept the New Converts away from those who would preach the doctrines and traditions of man the Mainstream Preachers of that time called Circumcision and the Law of Moses, which would include the Levitical Priesthood sacrificial "works of the Law" for remission of sins. But The Gentiles were told to keep a couple of food laws and a couple of moral laws, then they sent the New Converts to learn the rest from Moses just like Jesus instructed them to do in Matt. 23. They already knew and were participating in the observance of God's Sabbath as scripture clearly teaches in previous chapters in Acts.

You assume, as do the Mainstream preachers of today, that the burden and Yoke in Acts 15 was God's Law. This can not be supported with scripture.

Acts 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Peter rebuked the Sect of the Pharisees which believed.

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

The yoke the Fathers, and the apostles before Christ couldn't bear was not God Commandments, but doctrines and traditions of men they called the Law of Moses. Jesus was very clear on this. And the apostles kept the New Converts away from this "SECT" of believers, rebuked them, then sent the New Converts to Moses to learn the Will of God mentioned in Matt. 7. just like Jesus instructed them to do in Matt. 23. Same preaching as Jesus, same foundation, same laws are learned.

Paul taught the same thing of the Gentiles in

Romans 11:16 For if the firstfruit (Christ)be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root (Foundation of Christ)be holy, so are the branches.(All who partake in it like Abraham, Caleb, Stephen etc.)

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree,(Gentile) wert graffed in among them, and with thempartakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Same message throughout the entire Bible, minus the Levitical Priesthood ceremonial, sacrificial "Words and deeds of the Law" for remission of sins Paul speaks to in Rom. and Gal.

There is a lot of untruths told about this Acts chapter, as there are about Paul's letters as prophesied.

Banned

I have to admit, It does makes me smile everytime I read Lovegodforever's statement that God's Law and the Mosaic law are at enmity with each other... If if wasn't a serious consideration I would burst out laughing at the silliness of it.The Mosaic law is God's! However, as we all can see that does not fit with a sabbatarian legalist theology.

It is best to let God's Word do the talking as it is written. Let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou might be justified in thy sayings, and might overcome when thou art judged.......

1. Where have I ever said that the Mosaic law was not from God? I have only said that there is a difference between God's Law (10 commandments) and the Mosaic laws (ceremonial, civil, ecclesiastical, Levitical, sanitation and heath). So if I have never said what you are claiming I have said above why say it?

2. What is a sabbatarian legalist theology and if you claim this is what we have can you prove your claim what we have said and provide scripture for your statement? If you cannot why are you saying things again that is not true?

It seems like you have not read any of the OP. This is for those that believe, love and follow God's Word that may be interested.......

Ok let's get to it.....................

What is the difference between God's Law (10 commandments) and the Mosaic law or laws of Moses and what was their purpose in the OC?

Let's see what God's Word says..............

There was two sets of laws that were given to God’s people in the Old Testament scriptures.

(1) God’s Law (10 commandments) pointed out what sin was and the penalty of sin which is death. It was never a cure for sin in the Old Testament as well as in the New. It only gives a knowledge of what sin is and righteousness (right doing) (Rom 3:20; James 2:11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Romans 6:23; Psalms 119:172).

(2) The laws of Moses was the second set of laws and included all the civil, ceremonial, and ecclesiastical laws. These laws could not tell you what sin was this was the job of God’s Law, however the laws of Moses were the prescriptive cure for sin in the Old Covenant. These laws included all the Levitical and ceremonial laws, sacrificial burnt offerings for sin, annual festivals and earthly sanctuary services for sin. These laws were the cure for sin so the sinner could be made right with God. These where all prophetic in nature, teaching the plan of salvation which pointing to Jesus as the true lamb of God and our great high priest and His Work on our behalf in the Heavenly Sanctuary. (Leviticus 1; 3-12; 14-17; 22-23; Number 6-8; 15; 28-29; Deuteronomy 12; 33; Exodus 25:8; John 1:29; 36; Revelation 5:6; 1 Corinthians 5:6-7; Hebrews 8:2-13; 9:1-28)

From the above it can be seen that God’s Law was written on stone and the laws of Moses in a book. God’s Law is forever and only points out what sin is but was never a cure for sin (Romans 3:20; 1 John 3:4; Romans 6:23).

The laws of Moses included all the ceremonial and ecclesiastical laws that were the cure for sin with all the sin offerings and earthly Sanctuary services, annual festivals and sin offerings which were prophetic in nature and temporary pointing to the life, death, resurrection of Jesus and his role as the true lamb of God and your great high priest to atone for our sins (John 1:29; 36; Revelation 5:6; 1 Corinthians 5:6-7; Hebrews 8:2-13; 9:1-28).

Ephesians 2:15 and Colossians 2:14 The handwriting of ordinances (ceremonial laws and ordinances written in a book) is referring to the ceremonial, ecclesiastical laws of Moses which included the Jewish annual festivals and sin offerings that pointed to Jesus.

The Greek words used here is handwriting G5498 χειρόγραφον; cheirographon; which means; hand written legal document which is combined with ordinance G1378 δόγμα dogma dog'-mah From the base of G1380; which means; civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical law: - decree;

The Greek meaning of handwriting of ordinances in v14 of Colossians 2 and v15 in Ephesians 2 is a hand written legal document or book of civil, ceremonial and ecclesiastical laws. These are the laws referred to in verse 14 that have been erased and are nailed to the cross.

What is the legal written document or book (handwriting of ordinances) that includes the civil, ceremonial and ecclesiastical laws referring to?

Why were the ceremonial laws of Moses (handwriting of ordinances) nailed to the cross?...............

Jesus was our true sacrifice for our sins and the saviour of the world that the ceremonial laws of Moses all pointed to. When Jesus came and died the old Covenant laws of Moses that pointed to Jesus and the plan of salvation was fulfilled (John 1:29; 36; Rev 5:6; 1Cor 5:6-7; Heb 8:2-13; 9:1-28). Jesus is our true Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world and our sacrifice for our sins. It is our sins as well as the ceremonial laws of Moses that were nailed to the cross at the death of Jesus (Colossians 2:14; Ephesians 2:15; John 3:16).

God's Law is forever and the standard of the Old and New Covenants and the Judgement to come.....

The Law of God (10 commandments) is the work of God (Exodus 32:16) whatsoever God does is forever nothing can be added to it or taken away (Ecclesiastes 3:14). God's Law is perfect converting the soul (Psalms 19:7). It is the very foundation of the Old and New Covenants (Exodus 20:1:17, Hebrews 8:10-12). God's Law was spoken by God himself to His people (Exodus 20:1-22). Jesus says Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away (Matthew 25:35). Gods Law is still in force today (Psalms 111:7-8, Revelation 12:17, 14:12, 22:14, 1 John 3:5-8, 1 John 2:3-4 etc.). The Law of God reveals sin to us so we can see ourselves as we truly are sinners in need of a Saviour (Romans 3:20; 1 John 3:4). It is the great standard of the judgement (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14, James 2:10-12, 1 John 3:4, Acts 17:31). God's Law is our teacher revealing sin and the character of God and brings us to Christ at the foot of the cross that we might be saved by faith by Him who loves us and washed us in His own blood (Galatians 3:24; Revelation 1:5). God writes His Law in our hearts so that we become like him and we follow him because we love him (Heb 8:10-12) LOVE is the fulfilling (doing) of God's Law (Romans 13:10). This is why Jesus says to those that love him If you love me keep my commandments (John 14:15). He that says I know him and keeps not his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him (1 John 2:4) Obedience to God’s Law is the fruit of faith that works by love and fulfills

Love is the fulfilling of God's Royal Law.....

Matthew 22:36-40 (The two great commandments of love that fulfills God's Law)
36, Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law? 37, And he said unto him, (1) Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38, This is the first and great commandment. 39, And the second like unto it is this, (2) Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 40, On these two commandments the whole law hangs, and the prophets. (Jesus is quoting from Deut 6:5 and Lev 19:18)

Jesus says we have (1) a duty of love to God as well as a (2) duty of love to our neighbor in Matthew 22:36-40 and on these two commandments hang all the Law and the prophets....

Now let's look at the message of Jesus to the rich young ruler. I believe this is the same message that can be a blessing or a curse to you because you hold the same belief that if you only have to follow the 2nd great commandment of love to your neighbor...

Matthew 19:16-26
16, And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17, And he said unto him, Why call thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandment(s) <Plural more then one referring to the two Great one love to God and neighbor>. 18, He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19, Honor thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. <Jesus first quotes our duty of love in the 2nd Great commandment> 20, The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? <The rich young ruler followed this commandment but deep down inside he knew he lacked something> 21, Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. 22, But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. 23, Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24, And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 25, When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? 26, But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

This was the message to the rich young ruler because he believed he practiced love to His neighbor which is the second great commandment and this is what you believe, but Jesus tells him Go sell all that you have and give it to the poor and come and follow me. The rich young ruler went away sorrowful because he had great possessions.....

What is the meaning?....................

The rich young ruler believed he was following God because he was obeying God's 2nd great commandment which is our duty of Love our neighbor. He quotes the commandments the are our duty of love to our neighbor but deep down inside he knew that something was wrong, so he went and asks Jesus, What must I do to that I may have eternal life? Jesus then shows him that he loved his possessions more than God and was not obeying the 1st great commandment and duty of love to God. His God and idol was his possessions which he loved more than God.

Was the rich young ruler in a saved state?

But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. He was sorrowful because Jesus showed him he was not really following his duty of Love to God (1st great commandment) and goes on to say... Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

If we break one of God's commandments of love on which all the Law and the prophets hang, we stand guilty before God of breaking all of them... If we reject God's Word then God's Word will judge us in the last days..

There are two great commandments. One is our love to God (Exodus 20:1-11; Deut 6:5; Matt 22:36-40) and the second is love to our neighbor (Exodus 20:12-17; Lev 19:18; Matt 22:36-40) Love is indeed the fulfilling of the entire Law. However, if we are breaking any of God's commandments it shows us that we do not have the love of God in us. Only by faith that works by love is God's Law fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit and is why we need to be born again......

On the two Great commandments of love hang all of God's Law......

Matthew 22:36-40
36, Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law? 37, And he said unto him, (1) Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38, This is the great and first commandment. 39, And a second like unto it is this, (2) Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 40, On these two commandments the whole law hangs, and the prophets.

Duty of love to our neighbor.....

Romans 13:8-10
8, Owe no man anything, save to love one another: for he that loves his neighbor hath fulfilled the law. 9, For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this word, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 10, Love works no ill to his neighbor: love therefore is the fulfillment of the law. (this is the 2nd great commandment of love to our neighbor)

James 2:8-12
8, Howbeit if ye fulfill the royal law, according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well: 9, but if ye have respect of persons, ye commit sin, being convicted by the law as transgressors. 10, For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is become guilty of all. 11, For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou dost not commit adultery, but killest, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12, So speak ye, and so do, as men that are to be judged by a law of liberty.

If we are knowingly and willfully breaking any of God's commandments we do not have God's love in us. This includes your duty of love to God in the first great commandment. If you break the 4th commandment you are not fulfilling your duty of your love to God. God is calling us to repent and believe the Gospel for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand....

Senior Member

If you only knew what the error of the wicked was. Here's the solution;

2 Peter 3:18But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Philippians 3:5-9

5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Paul said he was a Pharisee of the Pharisees, but Jesus said they, which included Saul, were not obedient to God, rather, they had created their own doctrines and traditions.

Rom. 10: For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

They were still preaching that "righteousness" came from Levitical Priesthood sacrificial "works and Deeds of the Law, the Blood of Goats, not the Blood of Jesus. The Pharisees thought they were "Children of Abraham, but they were deceived. And so was Paul when he was a Pharisee.

They still pushed the "Laws of Moses" where the remission of sin was concerned. Paul, and Jesus, who forgave people without one drop of animal blood as the "LAW" prescribed, both taught obedience to God apart from the Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" for remission of sins.

This was the heresy they killed Jesus for and set out to kill Paul. But Paul knew the Gospel of Christ, or the Old testament, already told them of a time when the gentiles would "come to the light" and be grafted in to the "Holy Root", the foundation upon which Jesus lived His life.

1 Corinthians 4:15-1715 For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.17 For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.

I guess it is explained differently in different bibles. I really think you should throw yours away. Get a good old fashioned KJV

Senior Member

If we break one of God's commandments of love on which all the Law and the prophets hang, we stand guilty before God of breaking all of them... If we reject God's Word then God's Word will judge us in the last days..

There are two great commandments. One is our love to God (Exodus 20:1-11; Deut 6:5; Matt 22:36-40) and the second is love to our neighbor (Exodus 20:12-17; Lev 19:18; Matt 22:36-40) Love is indeed the fulfilling of the entire Law. However, if we are breaking any of God's commandments it shows us that we do not have the love of God in us. Only by faith that works by love is God's Law fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit and is why we need to be born again......

On the two Great commandments of love hang all of God's Law......

Matthew 22:36-40
36, Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law? 37, And he said unto him, (1) Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38, This is the great and first commandment. 39, And a second like unto it is this, (2) Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 40, On these two commandments the whole law hangs, and the prophets.

Duty of love to our neighbor.....

Romans 13:8-10
8, Owe no man anything, save to love one another: for he that loves his neighbor hath fulfilled the law. 9, For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this word, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 10, Love works no ill to his neighbor: love therefore is the fulfillment of the law. (this is the 2nd great commandment of love to our neighbor)

James 2:8-12
8, Howbeit if ye fulfill the royal law, according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well: 9, but if ye have respect of persons, ye commit sin, being convicted by the law as transgressors. 10, For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is become guilty of all. 11, For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou dost not commit adultery, but killest, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12, So speak ye, and so do, as men that are to be judged by a law of liberty.

If we are knowingly and willfully breaking any of God's commandments we do not have God's love in us. This includes your duty of love to God in the first great commandment. If you break the 4th commandment you are not fulfilling your duty of your love to God. God is calling us to repent and believe the Gospel for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand....

Great energy there.. And it almost had a ring of authenticity.. that is until your legalism reared its ugly head.

You see we are not saved nor kept saved by following the law. If we sin we are not under any condemnation like what the law brings. Christ bore that condemnation because we could not.

It's all about the gospel Loveforgod. That is why Christ came, to free those in bondage to sin, and finally lead them from captivity so that in Him, we are counted righteous. Following laws can make no man righteous.

Only those who reject God's gracious love in His Son stand guilty.. You need to get the gospel right Lovegodforever, It is all about Jesus and what He has done.

Senior Member

Exo 20:8 "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work,
Exo 20:10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates.
Exo 31:12 And the LORD said to Moses, Exo 31:13 "You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, 'Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the LORD, sanctify you.
Exo 31:14 You shall keep the Sabbath, because it is holy for you. Everyone who profanes it shall be put to death. Whoever does any work on it, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Exo 31:15 Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death.
Exo 31:16 Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever.
Exo 31:17 It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.'"
Exo 31:18 And he gave to Moses, when he had finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.

Exo 35:1 Moses assembled all the congregation of the people of Israel and said to them, "These are the things that the LORD has commanded you to do.
Exo 35:2 Six days work shall be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it shall be put to death.
Exo 35:3 You shall kindle no fire in all your dwelling places on the Sabbath day."

The Sabbath is a day of rest. I doubt that anyone keeps it as God intended it in the commandments. I suspect that many believe that they keep the Sabbath by following their interpretation of the practice laid out in the Laws. If that is your way of worshiping Christ, I have no problem with it. Unless you keep the Sabbath as Commanded by God, do not call your worship services keeping the Sabbath. It ain't. It is just your choice of a day to worship. God bless you and please continue to do so.

I believe that most of us worship our Risen Savior on Sunday. I doubt that anyone worshiping on Sunday considers that keeping the Sabbath. We call it a day of worship. If you Worship Christ on Sunday, or any other day, continue to do so. God bless you and continue to do so.

Now you know thats not true, I believe that we are to be obedient, and I am not a Legalist

It's like the old saying if the show fits! It is a very dangerous teaching.

Yes we know your favourite verses by now, you've cut and pasted them hundreds of times . Plus you dont even give them a context and worse still take them out of context.

It is all in light of who we are 'In Christ'. Not law keeping. The gospel my friend. Not legalism. It would be nice to hear you actually talk about Jesus and how he fulfilled the demands and curse of the law on our/your behalf, and how you could never be able to keep the commands on your own.

But alas every post is ...law law , ten commandments, commandments law, ten commandments (a mention of jesus somewhere commanding us to KEEP the law, and then tho and behold... another post full of scripture. keep the commandmends, law, ten commandments, Sabbath keeping and more commands,

You need to concentrate on the finished work of Christ and why that has set your free from bondage to works righteousness Hizikyah.