Is there anyway to not multiclass and achieve the requirement of all martial weapons?

Oh and is still within pathfinders rules?

Magus

Dang, I thought that would be said.

So then, If I'm limited only the the Corebook, whats the best way of going about an EK without being completely absolutely optimized? I mean of course, still capable of functioning, but not quite perfect.

Dunno if barb is a good way to go. You can't cast when raged, and since you wont get high enough to get rid of the fatigued penalty, stopping rage to cast isn't a good option either. You'd kinda be removing the flexibility you're aiming for in an EK.

I recommend Fighter1/Witch 5/ Eldritch Knight 10(if playing in an adventure path). Make do with heavy armor and hexes for the first few levels. Pick up, at least Evil Eye, Cackle and Fortune and perhaps Flight(via Extra Hex feat) and use move actions to continue hex effects and standards to hit enemies with Furious Focus and Power Attack until you get your first iterative attack. Very effective and people will love you for the Fortune hex.

When you hit EK levels, you'll thank me for picking Witch, since you've chosen either Strength patron(for Divine Power, Righteous Might, Greater Magic Weapon and Giant Form) or Wisdom patron(for Shield of Faith, Magic Vestment, Globe of Invulnerability) and shine in melee. Drop the armor, use a reach weapon and change to Stilled spells that imitate combat maneuvers(assuming the Witch gets any) when someone closes in or pick Transformation patron and maul everyone with beast/dragon/other shape spells and decent BAB.

You can't blast for heck, but nearly every other caster role is probable and you can carry your weight in combat as well.

Dunno if barb is a good way to go. You can't cast when raged, and since you wont get high enough to get rid of the fatigued penalty, stopping rage to cast isn't a good option either. You'd kinda be removing the flexibility you're aiming for in an EK.

just my 2 cp.

Moment of Clarity shores up this weakness perfectly. Remember, the point of barbarian is to SMASH, not perform lots of battlefield control with trips, disarm, etc.

For Battlefield control...Cold's build is the best

The witch combo is an interesting idea that I haven't looked into yet. Sounds very hexblade-y to me.

Gishes are a lot like spontaneous casters in that you have to pick a role, and fill that roll. If you try to do everything, you will end up an unhappy Gish, same as if you try to do everything with a sorcerer. So, pick your role, and build your Gish to suit :)

I like the idea of Bard using the Arcane Duelist build. Go fighter 1 , Bard 10, EK 9 . You get a BAB of 17 in the end. Caster level of 18 , you can wear mitheral full plate with no spell failure chance since you can cast in Medium armor at 10th Level Arcane Duelist. You get arcane strike, combat casting, disruptive, and spell breaker as bonus feats. You get 4 bonus combat feats. So 8 bonus feats isn't bad.

Take fighter first to get the +1 BAB pre-requistite feats like weapon focus and power attack. Go 10 levels of bard to get you Arcane Armor class feature the finish off with EK. Losing Spell Critical isn't big deal as you probably use Arcane Strike for extra damage every round. With the Magical Knack feat you'd be Caster level 20 with 18 for spell levels.

you can wear mitheral full plate with no spell failure chance since you can cast in Medium armor at 10th Level Arcane Duelist

I don't think it works that way. Full plate is still heavy armor (mithral or no), and a 10th level AD Bard can't cast in Heavy armor with no failure...just like making full plate out of mithral doesn't allow a character without the necessary feat to wear it.

you can wear mitheral full plate with no spell failure chance since you can cast in Medium armor at 10th Level Arcane Duelist

I don't think it works that way. Full plate is still heavy armor (mithral or no), and a 10th level AD Bard can't cast in Heavy armor with no failure...just like making full plate out of mithral doesn't allow a character without the necessary feat to wear it.

Has this been errata'd or FAQ'd?

The build had Fighter 1 as the first level, granting him the knowledge to wear full plate armor. Mithril allows the wearer to treat the armor as one category lighter, although you still need the knowledge of how to wear the armor (granted by fighter level). And the AD Bard lvl 10 can cast spells out of medium armor with no ASF.

This is the same as a Core Bard casting out of a mithril bp, it is possible (provided he has the appropriate feat).

The EK I am currently playing is an Elf. With a Curved Blade. And Finesse.

At 7th Level she was pushing a 31 AC buffed.

Transmuter to get the bonus to a physical stat. It is in DEX right now, but will move to CON once I get the right item ;)

Fighter1/Wizard5/EK3 right now. Eventually it will be Fig4/Wiz6/EK10. Traits include Magical Knack so she is currently a full level caster and will end up as a 17th level caster. (the progression is Fig1; Wiz1-5; EK1-10; Wiz6; Fig2-4)

It takes her a minute to get warmed up, but she does just fine once she is there. *Heroism* is a nearly constant Buff as is *See Invisilibility* and *Darkvision*. *Shield* and *Blur* are core spells; *Stoneskin* would be as well, except that we do have some cash restrictions :) *Protection v. Evil* rocks. And *Haste* is either turn one, or two depending on whether she needs *Shield* immediately.

And I wholeheartedly agree that a melee/caster needs to look at one role and make it work. Hard to blast and buff and crowd control and... Unless you are using the 3.0 version of haste ;) (j/k)

The EK I am currently playing is an Elf. With a Curved Blade. And Finesse.

At 7th Level she was pushing a 31 AC buffed.

Transmuter to get the bonus to a physical stat. It is in DEX right now, but will move to CON once I get the right item ;)

Fighter1/Wizard5/EK3 right now. Eventually it will be Fig4/Wiz6/EK10. Traits include Magical Knack so she is currently a full level caster and will end up as a 17th level caster. (the progression is Fig1; Wiz1-5; EK1-10; Wiz6; Fig2-4)

It takes her a minute to get warmed up, but she does just fine once she is there. *Heroism* is a nearly constant Buff as is *See Invisilibility* and *Darkvision*. *Shield* and *Blur* are core spells; *Stoneskin* would be as well, except that we do have some cash restrictions :) *Protection v. Evil* rocks. And *Haste* is either turn one, or two depending on whether she needs *Shield* immediately.

And I wholeheartedly agree that a melee/caster needs to look at one role and make it work. Hard to blast and buff and crowd control and... Unless you are using the 3.0 version of haste ;) (j/k)

May I ask a question here as it is related. I am currently working on being an EK. I am fighter one and wizard five and am planning to take the next ten in EK. What I am worried about is that I am the groups only arcane caster but I wanted the flexability of a battle mage type. I am a teifling that has taken wpn focus greatsword, combat casting, arcane strike, arcane armor training and craft arms and armor. The craft feat was part story and also in this style of game being able to make your gear is the most direct path to gearing. With that being said as I am the groups mage how should I go about this or have I just botched a character. Ah I went universal so that I could have access any spell and I have a ring item bond.

Outsiders are proficient with all martial weapons. If you could talk your GM into letting you play some kind of outsider, you could go straight into wizard or sorcerer.

Class proficiencies override racial proficiencies, otherwise wizards' proficiencies make no sense. Pretty much everything that can use weapons at all, including the humanoid type, has simple weapon proficiencies and wizards don't.

Bard EK is terrible. You gain almost nothing because you lose nearly as much from performance progression as you gain in BAB, which means you're down bonus damage and spellcasting for nothing.

Sorcerer EK works, but nobody will call it optimal. Still, it's probably a great deal better than say Mystic Theurge. A splash of EK to fill out the end of a Dragon Disciple build would work, but it's not really an EK.

Wizard EK is pretty much your only option. Since Paladin 1 and Ranger 1 are lame and barbarian is antisynergistic you're best off going Fighter 1 Wizard 6 EK 10 Wizard 7-9 or EK 9 and ending with Wizard 7-10 if you know you'll hit level 20 and are willing to be a little weaker at levels 17-19. Or maybe Wizard 2 Fighter 1 Wizard 4 and into EK if you want something with a wizard level or caster level prereq at level 1 instead of something with a BAB prereq. I'm not impressed with the EK's capstone, but without the wizard discoveries a bonus feat at level 20 isn't all that much more interesting.

Sorcadin has slightly higher-than-medium BAB (Pally2/Sorc8/EK10 has a 16 BAB, that last +1 attack gets buffed gish a quickened true strike if you want), also has really good saves. However, you cap at 8th level spells, and your caster level is HD-1 (assuming magical knack)

Fighter/Wizard has the most synergy of class abilities, and is widely regarded as the best way to go

Sohei/Empyrial has a slightly lower BAB (due to the monk level), but can pump everything into one stat (wisdom) and raise his AC, Casting Stat, To-hit (if using a guided weapon), and has perception as a class skill.

I disagree that using Sorcerer as your casting baseline is significantly *worse* than Wizard. It's more focused in some ways, less focused in other ways.

You're not as flexible. On the other hand, you can use wands and scrolls. You never, ever, ever run out of whatever spells you choose to spam.

You do gain a hodge-podge of oddball abilities, and you never...ever...ever...run out of spells. Some of those Sorcerer bloodline abilities (accessed through a Robe of Eldritch Heritage) are amazingly handy.

The only part where it's truly painful is 4th level, when you're Fighter 1/Sorc 3. That level is the Valley of Suck. BAB 2, no 2nd level spells.

I'm actually playing a Fighter/Sorcerer/going-to-EK character in PFS. I've been an effective and useful member of the team, more so than many wizards I've seen.

If going for all ten ElK levels, then as a Sorcerer/Fighter/Elk you'll end up with, at most 9 levels of Sorcerer (+1 Fighter - or equivalent - +10 ElK). That means Robes of Arcane Heritage bump you to counting as a level 13 Sorcerer for the purposes of Bloodline powers - so you miss the top two 'pay-off' powers (level 15 & 20) no matter what. An equivalent Wizard-based ElK gains all his school powers (the basic two and the level 8 power too).

You also miss out on 5 Bloodline spells known (the robes only boost powers, they don't grant the extra spells known).

You miss out on 2 Bloodline Feats, as opposed to the Wizard-based ElK missing out on 3 bonus Feats.

You're casting as a level 18 Sorcerer, so 3 level 9 spells per day (and a base of 50 spells per day total, not included bonus spells). That's better than the 18th level equivalent Wizard's base of 2x 9th level (and 36 spells per day total, before bonuses).

Assuming the Wizard's 'Arcane Discoveries' from UM count as Feats for the purposes of the ElK's Diverse Training class feature, then a Wizard-based ElK gets much more milage out of that particular class feature than any other arcane casting base class, Sorcerer included.

A Sorcerer still gains spells known from gaining casting levels as an ElK, whereas a Wizard doesn't get any automatic new spells to add into his spellbook.

Personally, due to both the fact you miss out on the Sorcerer's two best Bloodline powers (although the Eldritch Heritage Feat chain can claw you back a level 15 power from a different Bloodline, if you're willing to invest... and you're more likely to have the pre-requisite Charisma than an equivalent Wizard-based character), and the fact you don't qualify to enter the ElK class until a level later than the Wizard (not to mention you end up gaining spell levels not one, but three levels after a pure Wizard or Witch character) I feel that Sorcerer isn't as good a choice for the base casting class of an ElK as a Wizard. I wouldn't say it's significantly worse - mostly the differences are just the differences between Sorcerers and Wizards in the first place.

If the game / DM tended towards not allowing access / time / resources to research new spells to scribe into spellbooks, then the Sorcerer pulls out ahead.

Personally, I'd look at the idea of Eldritch Archer for you. Go Fighter 1/Wizard 5/EK 3/AA 3/EK 7/AA 1; go Elf for the synergy to the two main stats of Int and Dex with Con or Strength as your third stat option. It works for any point build; especially if you can take the magical knack feat, but you'll still get 9th level spells in the end even if you can't. Though you can imbue your arrows with AOE spells I prefer just to play it like a regular wizard that's useful when his spells run out. It gives you the option of non-spell contribution.

Open combat -> dish out a CC or buff spell or two -> shoot arrows at people

Though, i do enjoy popping out that occassional fireball arrow every now and then ^_^

Dragon Disciple is generally a better road for Sorcerers, yes... if you happen to have the draconic Bloodline, and if you're more interested in Bloodline stuff than overall casting ability. ElK isn't really optimal for Sorcerers, but Sorcerers don't make half-bad ElKs... if that makes any sense? IMHO, natch! ;)

Sorry for being lazy and not typing out RDD, it's a left over from 3.5 minmax forums.

ProfPotts wrote:

Dragon Disciple is generally a better road for Sorcerers, yes... if you happen to have the draconic Bloodline, and if you're more interested in Bloodline stuff than overall casting ability. ElK isn't really optimal for Sorcerers, but Sorcerers don't make half-bad ElKs... if that makes any sense? IMHO, natch! ;)

I think I understood what you meant, I just wanted to add that by adding RDD to the mix Sorc/EK builds gain a lot, enough to say that Sorc/EK is optimal :)

You make the "Bloodline stuff" sound so boring ;). In the case of Fighter 1/Sorc 4/RDD 8/EK 7 it's +7 NA, +4 Str, +2 Con, +2 Int, claws, wings, 10 Energy resistance (type of your choice) and a breath weapon. Plus you can go crossblooded to swap some things around (I like Sage a lot but there are other good options).
I think the need for draconic bloodline is not really an issue since you can plan ahead.

But I still think that 7 levels of EK is worth more then 1 fighter 6 sorcerer for a RDD builds after taking 8 levels RDD. It means going for some HP, BAB (for most builds it's 3 BAB, 4th attack at level 20) and weapon specialization over capstone bloodline powers.

So then, If I'm limited only the the Corebook, whats the best way of going about an EK without being completely absolutely optimized? I mean of course, still capable of functioning, but not quite perfect.

what exactly do you mean by "the best"? the most fun? the most optimized that's not a fighter/wizard? the easiest? and it seems like a lot of people are ignoring 'CRB only'- is that an oversight on their part or did I miss something?

some people have mentioned this in passing, but i've played a couple EKs and i think a pal 2/sor[bronze, gold, or silver dragon] 3/DD 4/EK 10/+1 sor @20 with the 1st 2 eldritch heritage feats for the abyssal bloodline is pretty fun (when i did it i was a human who wrestled with the tension between his call to serve his god and the growing power of his demonic heritage). they only get CL 16 and +17 BAB, but they also get +10 to Str and weapon specialization which makes them pretty decent in melee. you'd definitely want to pick up a robe of arcane heritage though. and now that i think about it those feats and that item are non-CRB. yikes, this is tricky- lol. i think it would still be a fun and interesting build without the extra +6 Str though.

if you like glass canons an elven fighter 1/wizard 5/EK 3/Arcane Archer 4/other 7 EK levels is a fun and functional, if a bit stereotypical, build (9th level spells and +17 BAB).

to answer your original question- no, in the CRB you cannot qualify for EK without some multiclassing; it doesn't have to be 2 base classes though... an 8th level bard (with the right feats) would qualify for Arcane Archer which grants proficiency in all martial weapons. so, if you wanted to, you could go bard 8/AA 1/EK 10 (+1 lvl of bard or AA @20) but that would have to be for story/rp purposes because its definitely not as potent as other builds... although- you'd be able to start performing as a move action, and could do some healing in addition to buff/debuff spells and some control spells (with CL 19). You could accomplish a very similar thing with bard 8(with right feats)/duelist 1/EK 10 (+1 lvl bard @20) and that would be a better fit for melee.

I like the idea of Bard using the Arcane Duelist build. Go fighter 1 , Bard 10, EK 9 . You get a BAB of 17 in the end. Caster level of 18 , you can wear mitheral full plate with no spell failure chance since you can cast in Medium armor at 10th Level Arcane Duelist. You get arcane strike, combat casting, disruptive, and spell breaker as bonus feats. You get 4 bonus combat feats. So 8 bonus feats isn't bad.

Take fighter first to get the +1 BAB pre-requistite feats like weapon focus and power attack. Go 10 levels of bard to get you Arcane Armor class feature the finish off with EK. Losing Spell Critical isn't big deal as you probably use Arcane Strike for extra damage every round. With the Magical Knack feat you'd be Caster level 20 with 18 for spell levels.

with this build you could take the , dimensional feat chain and nightcrawler everything to death!

I like the idea of Bard using the Arcane Duelist build. Go fighter 1 , Bard 10, EK 9 . You get a BAB of 17 in the end. Caster level of 18 , you can wear mitheral full plate with no spell failure chance since you can cast in Medium armor at 10th Level Arcane Duelist. You get arcane strike, combat casting, disruptive, and spell breaker as bonus feats. You get 4 bonus combat feats. So 8 bonus feats isn't bad.

Take fighter first to get the +1 BAB pre-requistite feats like weapon focus and power attack. Go 10 levels of bard to get you Arcane Armor class feature the finish off with EK. Losing Spell Critical isn't big deal as you probably use Arcane Strike for extra damage every round. With the Magical Knack feat you'd be Caster level 20 with 18 for spell levels.

I've got a player planning to do something along those lines. They're planning for Paladin 2/Bard (Arcane Duelist) 12/Eldritch Knight 6.

The PC is an Aasimar using the Aasimar's racial alternate favored class bonus for Bards (from the ARG) on his Bladethrist performance so that by the time he reaches Bard 12 he'll count as a Bard 18 for Bladethirst and will get the maximum +5 bonus from it.

In addition to that, at 20th level the PC: will be able to cast 6th level Bard spells, can do so in medium armor without risk of spell failure, has a BAB of 17, can smite evil, detect evil at will, and gets a massive Charisma bonus to his saving throws.

Wouldn't one be able to become an EK if you take a fighter lvl as an Aasimar? Fighter will give you martial weap. proficiency and being an Aasimar gives you the daylight spell which is a 3rd lvl spell.

That aside, what about using lvl/s of Samurai instead of fighter/paladin? Gives the same weapon proficiency as a fighter, but lose out on the extra feat. Gains the challenge ability which I was thinking of going Order of the Cocatrice or Blue Rose. But my reasons of going for Samurai are more for flavor(challenge and nodachi weap. prof. :P) Wondering if it will really bite me in the butt later...

A really weird one I figured out was if you got rolled an aaismar with both the divine and arcane sla from the random table (if you can manage all 3 successful rolls) sorcerer1/oracle1(battle, picking skill at arms)/Mystic Theurge8, Eldritch knight 10. Pick up eldritch heritage(orc) as you go. Unlikely to ever see the light of day in any campaign but it nets you
1.casting as an 18th level sorcerer
2.casting as a 9th level oracle (obviously buff spells)
3.14 bab at 20'th level (you could actually sacrifice a level of MT to oracle for another point, but you'd lose out on a sorcerer level of casting)

I actually had a bunch of stuff written down about this build, but I can't remember where I put it.
edit: you know what, even though the bard is stronger with AD purely, if you plug it into this instead of sorcerer I think you might get good mileage out of combined spells.

Wouldn't one be able to become an EK if you take a fighter lvl as an Aasimar? Fighter will give you martial weap. proficiency and being an Aasimar gives you the daylight spell which is a 3rd lvl spell.

Well...NOW you can. When this thread was started...no. So yes, a fi 1/wiz 1/EK 10/whatever can very well be done now.

Wouldn't one be able to become an EK if you take a fighter lvl as an Aasimar? Fighter will give you martial weap. proficiency and being an Aasimar gives you the daylight spell which is a 3rd lvl spell.

Well...NOW you can. When this thread was started...no. So yes, a fi 1/wiz 1/EK 10/whatever can very well be done now.

Am I missing something? Don't Aasimar's start with all simple and martial weapon proficieny from being an Outsider (Native)?

With the new ruling, that above and 'Daylight' they could start as an EK at level 1.

Course they would have 0 armor proficiencies or magic ability to speak of at that level. You cannot add +1 to a spell casting class you never had.

But an Aasimar Wizard or Sorc 1 would do you fine and you could go to EK at 2.

Wouldn't one be able to become an EK if you take a fighter lvl as an Aasimar? Fighter will give you martial weap. proficiency and being an Aasimar gives you the daylight spell which is a 3rd lvl spell.

Well...NOW you can. When this thread was started...no. So yes, a fi 1/wiz 1/EK 10/whatever can very well be done now.

Am I missing something? Don't Aasimar's start with all simple and martial weapon proficieny from being an Outsider (Native)?

With the new ruling, that above and 'Daylight' they could start as an EK at level 1.

Course they would have 0 armor proficiencies or magic ability to speak of at that level. You cannot add +1 to a spell casting class you never had.

But an Aasimar Wizard or Sorc 1 would do you fine and you could go to EK at 2.