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50% of my students are on Hartz IV, the rest is just above minimum wage. Really well off students are extremely rare. And that can be found across the nation, as statistics can show you (the senate of Berlin has all school statistics online and public, excerpts, list generator from full statistics, specific schools).

So first it was about how the Germans have a totally unfair school system (FREE UP TO FUCKING PHD WITH A BLOODY FREE STATE GRANTED STUDENT LOAN SYSTEM FFS, TOTALLY UNFAIR!!!).
Then its about SOCIAL MOBILITY and how Germany is AWFUL. Because its hard to make a case how a school system with free access for everyone is unfair.
So SOCIAL MOBILITY IT IS.
OECD says GERMANY RIGHT THERE IN THE MIDDLE and ahead of countries of comparative size or bigger. What works with 5 million oil sponsored scandinavians isnt something you can necessarily replicate to 85m people.

What the hell is so hard to understand about it? After the fourth grade, Germany has a three (four actually) tiered school system (from worse to best):
- Hauptschule
- Realschule
-Gymnasium

Only a degree fro the last one makes you eligible for visiting a university later. Each and every report I heard in the last two decades clearly shows that if your parents visited the Hauptschule the chance is pretty high that you also end up there. You'll never get a decent job, as most trainee offers these days require Realschule degree. (Remember: we've got a dual job training system, with "official" job descriptions so that i.e. a butcher from Bavaria has the same expertise as one from Saxonia).

State granted student loans doesn't matter at all, IF YOU CAN'T MAKE IT TO A UNIVERSITY. Get that? That was the initial thesis.

My dad worked his whole career at the German unemployment office, the last decade of his career in the HO in Nuremberg. During lots of conversations over the years I've got plenty of information - even unofficial/not published ones, from him. Now - you've got two source from Germany, one directly involved (Joe) and one with a pretty good personal source up in the higher ranks (me). And both sources agree, what does this tell you?

What the hell is so hard to understand about it? After the fourth grade, Germany has a three (four actually) tiered school system (from worse to best):
- Hauptschule
- Realschule
-Gymnasium

Only a degree fro the last one makes you eligible for visiting a university later. Each and every report I heard in the last two decades clearly shows that if your parents visited the Hauptschule the chance is pretty high that you also end up there. You'll never get a decent job, as most trainee offers these days require Realschule degree. (Remember: we've got a dual job training system, with "official" job descriptions so that i.e. a butcher from Bavaria has the same expertise as one from Saxonia).

State granted student loans doesn't matter at all, IF YOU CAN'T MAKE IT TO A UNIVERSITY. Get that? That was the initial thesis.

My dad worked his whole career at the German unemployment office, the last decade of his career in the HO in Nuremberg. During lots of conversations over the years I've got plenty of information - even unofficial/not published ones, from him. Now - you've got two source from Germany, one directly involved (Joe) and one with a pretty good personal source up in the higher ranks (me). And both sources agree, what does this tell you?

The '5 million oil sponsored scandinavians' also have pretty much the same three categories of schools.

It's not the categories of schools, and using the word 'tier' just reflects how you view them; as tiered levels of future prosperity rather than what they really are, paths to different kinds of professions and/or higher education.

50% of my students are on Hartz IV, the rest is just above minimum wage. Really well off students are extremely rare. And that can be found across the nation, as statistics can show you (the senate of Berlin has all school statistics online and public, excerpts, list generator from full statistics, specific schools).

So first it was about how the Germans have a totally unfair school system (FREE UP TO FUCKING PHD WITH A BLOODY FREE STATE GRANTED STUDENT LOAN SYSTEM FFS, TOTALLY UNFAIR!!!).
Then its about SOCIAL MOBILITY and how Germany is AWFUL. Because its hard to make a case how a school system with free access for everyone is unfair.
So SOCIAL MOBILITY IT IS.
OECD says GERMANY RIGHT THERE IN THE MIDDLE and ahead of countries of comparative size or bigger. What works with 5 million oil sponsored scandinavians isnt something you can necessarily replicate to 85m people.

What the hell is so hard to understand about it? After the fourth grade, Germany has a three (four actually) tiered school system (from worse to best):
- Hauptschule
- Realschule
-Gymnasium

Only a degree fro the last one makes you eligible for visiting a university later. Each and every report I heard in the last two decades clearly shows that if your parents visited the Hauptschule the chance is pretty high that you also end up there. You'll never get a decent job, as most trainee offers these days require Realschule degree. (Remember: we've got a dual job training system, with "official" job descriptions so that i.e. a butcher from Bavaria has the same expertise as one from Saxonia).

State granted student loans doesn't matter at all, IF YOU CAN'T MAKE IT TO A UNIVERSITY. Get that? That was the initial thesis.

My dad worked his whole career at the German unemployment office, the last decade of his career in the HO in Nuremberg. During lots of conversations over the years I've got plenty of information - even unofficial/not published ones, from him. Now - you've got two source from Germany, one directly involved (Joe) and one with a pretty good personal source up in the higher ranks (me). And both sources agree, what does this tell you?

No one is saying that isn't true, just that that doesn't make the system unfair.

Originally Posted by QuackBot

I see you have read nietzsche's little known work "beyond boobs and butts".

It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

Being born into a poor family is the single biggest disadvantage you can face in life.

Originally Posted by Paul Mason

It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

Being born into a poor family is the single biggest disadvantage you can face in life.

No it isnt. Not even by a long shot.

I mean, it is a pretty big one, but not because of the money aspect itself. The money, at least in germany, is very secondary and has very little impact. The reason it is a disadvantage is on the one hand that poor people are stupid (most times) and if 2 stupid people have a kid its much more likely for that to be stupid as well. So, the gene/breeding factor. And then you have the way how poor stupid people bring up their children and how they educate them, which means even if the kid got lucky and isnt dumb its still far behind of equally smart rich kids just because of how the parents treat the kid and education. They dont nurture their child properly.

In this its not a nature vs nurture but nature and nurture both being negative factors.

The money itself is pretty meaningless, if 2 poor smart people had a kid and raised it properly it would do just as well as a rich kid. Poor people just are (mostly) bad parents.

Last edited by W0lf Crendraven; March 18 2017 at 02:51:17 PM.

Originally Posted by QuackBot

I see you have read nietzsche's little known work "beyond boobs and butts".

They are important arent they? Take dogs, if you take the smart dogs and breed them with other smart dogs you get the border collie in the end, if you take dumb dogs and breed them with dumb dogs you get the Afghan Hound.

The same happens/happened with the proletariat, the smart ones moved up and became part of the bourgeoisie, leaving over a class of people with below average intelligence. Due to many factors those people maried mostly within their own class and with people similarly smart/dumb as they themselves are. This lead eventually to the fact that children of proletarians are, by average, dumber then the kids of the bourgeoisie. Now, unlike with the dogs this wasnt done on purpose and wasnt enforced striclty, and it was done by way less generations so the effect isnt as strong, so a workers kid can be just as smart, if not smarter, as any rich kid. But the majority arent. And, the ones that are really smart tend to move up in the world and marry and have children with other smart people, not with the class of people they left behind.

Originally Posted by QuackBot

I see you have read nietzsche's little known work "beyond boobs and butts".

They are important arent they? Take dogs, if you take the smart dogs and breed them with other smart dogs you get the border collie in the end, if you take dumb dogs and breed them with dumb dogs you get the Afghan Hound.

The same happens/happened with the proletariat, the smart ones moved up and became part of the bourgeoisie, leaving over a class of people with below average intelligence. Due to many factors those people maried mostly within their own class and with people similarly smart/dumb as they themselves are. This lead eventually to the fact that children of proletarians are, by average, dumber then the kids of the bourgeoisie. Now, unlike with the dogs this wasnt done on purpose and wasnt enforced striclty, and it was done by way less generations so the effect isnt as strong, so a workers kid can be just as smart, if not smarter, as any rich kid. But the majority arent. And, the ones that are really smart tend to move up in the world and marry and have children with other smart people, not with the class of people they left behind.

You are actually stupid and uneducated and are not trolling, not a suprise but that posting underlines it.

Intelligence and ability is absolutely not "bred" but a random distribution pretty much of gaussian normal distribution. It is entirely chance based and not related to your parentage, certain heritary disease and drug abuse during pregnancy of course excluded.

Which is why it is important to have an equal chance education.

And thats exactly where we get to the whole "grown ups debating with kids" problem. If you want an OUTCOME EQUALITY system, you are back to square 1 and communism, and even there, there was proleratiat and there were the party elites.
So its proven in practice to be a non working theorycrafting bullshit.
Which leads us to the social mobility debate.
Its obvious that Joe and some others want "OUTCOME EQUALITY". Figure this: life isnt fair. Stop whining and accept that. If you were born unlucky and your parents are alcoholics that beat you and abuse you, you are done, it isnt fair but thats what it is.

Grow up and accept the fact, life isnt fair, life isnt all that great for many people, and in the end, we all die. Get over it.

Its not though, i dont know the term but its basicely influenced random distribution. The kids can be just as smart as anyone, but its less likely that they are if the parents are stupid, inteligence is inheritable.

Anyways, i just want to make it clear that i think the german system is FAIR, but i dont think its GOOD (or perfect may be be the better word). If it were up to me i would massively increase spending on schools, make sure teachers get payed more and that more people get into teaching so that classes get smaller and that kids get more attention. I would make sure that the system would do the early intervention for poor kids, and even do courses for the parents and so on. I think our current system where we basicely ignore the people in the Hauptschule as the future jobless social parasites is aweful. There must be a solution to that. The proletariat (in germany) must be made extinct, by making all of them part of the bourgeoisie. I dont think that workers kids being dragged down by their upbringing and surrounding is a good thing.

Our equality of chance isnt nearly good enough.

Originally Posted by QuackBot

I see you have read nietzsche's little known work "beyond boobs and butts".

Intelligence and ability is absolutely not "bred" but a random distribution pretty much of gaussian normal distribution. It is entirely chance based and not related to your parentage, certain heritary disease and drug abuse during pregnancy of course excluded.

[Citation Needed]

I was under the impression that intelligence (or IQ at least) has a roughly 50% genetic component to it. If you have really dumb/really smart parents you may well regress towards the mean but you'll probably still be dumber/smarter than a child of parents of average intelligence.

Which is why it is important to have an equal chance education.

And thats exactly where we get to the whole "grown ups debating with kids" problem. If you want an OUTCOME EQUALITY system, you are back to square 1 and communism, and even there, there was proleratiat and there were the party elites.
So its proven in practice to be a non working theorycrafting bullshit.
Which leads us to the social mobility debate.
Its obvious that Joe and some others want "OUTCOME EQUALITY". Figure this: life isnt fair. Stop whining and accept that. If you were born unlucky and your parents are alcoholics that beat you and abuse you, you are done, it isnt fair but thats what it is.

Grow up and accept the fact, life isnt fair, life isnt all that great for many people, and in the end, we all die. Get over it.

The only way to ensure equality of outcome would be to have the state raise all children from birth under controlled conditions.

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