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Re: Why hasn't Cincinnati grown as a city?

Are we talking the "city limits" or the "metro area". If were talking the metro area I think Cincinnati is doing fine. Within the next decade I think that Dayton will be included in the "Cincinnati Metro Area" similar to that of Dallas/Ft. Worth.

If we talking about the city limits there are a number of reasons the city isn't growing. You can first and foremost look at the dynamic of city politics. You have both Hamilton County and The City of Cincinnati trying to rule over the same area. You need an agreement on both in order to do a lot of things. One needs to look no further than the disaster known as the Banks from 2003 until 2011. Politics and bickering really held of the development of the most valuable piece of real estate in the city and something that has turned into a very good thing.

The City has poorer schools and higher taxes than most of the burbs. When my wife and I were looking for a house we chose our area because of the nice school district as well as no local income tax. Living in the city would force me to pay an extra 2% in income tax that living outside of it. As talked about in a different thread if I could get my kids into the German Language School and then Walnut Hills I would be fine with CPS schools, but outside of that the CPS schools are a disappointment.

In general I think Midwesterners like to drive. Unfortunately I think the boat on mass transit was missed in the early part of the 20th century when Cincinnati decided to quit building the subway. Today a massive project like that will be very expensive and very time consuming. I enjoy mass transit in areas where it convenient and successful, not Chicago. I "like" the idea of a street car but think the process has been muddled and is off to an unsuccessful start.

Re: Why hasn't Cincinnati grown as a city?

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

Are we talking the "city limits" or the "metro area". If were talking the metro area I think Cincinnati is doing fine. Within the next decade I think that Dayton will be included in the "Cincinnati Metro Area" similar to that of Dallas/Ft. Worth.

If we talking about the city limits there are a number of reasons the city isn't growing. You can first and foremost look at the dynamic of city politics. You have both Hamilton County and The City of Cincinnati trying to rule over the same area. You need an agreement on both in order to do a lot of things. One needs to look no further than the disaster known as the Banks from 2003 until 2011. Politics and bickering really held of the development of the most valuable piece of real estate in the city and something that has turned into a very good thing.

The City has poorer schools and higher taxes than most of the burbs. When my wife and I were looking for a house we chose our area because of the nice school district as well as no local income tax. Living in the city would force me to pay an extra 2% in income tax that living outside of it. As talked about in a different thread if I could get my kids into the German Language School and then Walnut Hills I would be fine with CPS schools, but outside of that the CPS schools are a disappointment.

In general I think Midwesterners like to drive. Unfortunately I think the boat on mass transit was missed in the early part of the 20th century when Cincinnati decided to quit building the subway. Today a massive project like that will be very expensive and very time consuming. I enjoy mass transit in areas where it convenient and successful, not Chicago. I "like" the idea of a street car but think the process has been muddled and is off to an unsuccessful start.

The failure can be directly attributed to the decline in the Machine Politics that had held on to the city for 40 years, in short they ran out of money, killed the project and the machine ended up being broken apart and the current city government structure was introduced, this also affected the Reds and their money as the machine was firmly entrenched in the teams finances.

Re: Why hasn't Cincinnati grown as a city?

Originally Posted by dougdirt

I don't know what it is like now. Still haven't been. Don't really care to go either. I don't go out much.

It's a little bit of a madhouse on the weekends. The same thing happened to Northside a few years back. I hate it. But on the weekdays, if you're into good music and/or good beer, it's a pretty good time.

Re: Why hasn't Cincinnati grown as a city?

Originally Posted by camisadelgolf

It's a little bit of a madhouse on the weekends. The same thing happened to Northside a few years back. I hate it. But on the weekdays, if you're into good music and/or good beer, it's a pretty good time.

Never been in Northside other than passing through on my way to other places. I do like good music, but I find it better to listen to without a bunch of other people around, without alcohol around and with the option of finding a clean bathroom.

Re: Why hasn't Cincinnati grown as a city?

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

The City has poorer schools and higher taxes than most of the burbs. When my wife and I were looking for a house we chose our area because of the nice school district as well as no local income tax. Living in the city would force me to pay an extra 2% in income tax that living outside of it. As talked about in a different thread if I could get my kids into the German Language School and then Walnut Hills I would be fine with CPS schools, but outside of that the CPS schools are a disappointment.

isn't Clark a good school? It is at least revolutionary, I know that. I think it may have been the first montessori high school in the country.

As a basis for comparison, Pittsburgh has really attacked its school system's problems head on for the past decade, and the schools have improved dramatically. They implemented accelerated learning programs for poorer-performing schools (extending their school year, even) and instituted nationally-recognized teacher development programs, among other initiatives. It has coincided, not coincidentally, with an explosion of business in the city, including the aforementioned Google coup. But then, our taxes are quite high. Three percent city income tax, two percent of which is for schools. And property taxes are high, not to mention recently decentralized, so they are messy to boot.

Re: Why hasn't Cincinnati grown as a city?

Originally Posted by camisadelgolf

It's a little bit of a madhouse on the weekends. The same thing happened to Northside a few years back. I hate it. But on the weekdays, if you're into good music and/or good beer, it's a pretty good time.

Can't say the same for good music, but good beer can be found everywhere now. This is a little off topic but there has been an explosion of craft beer across america. It used to be you would go to a bar and the only beers you could find were the mass produced beers. Now what used to be unique to the Northside and OTR and more "hipster" joints are found in most local bar/restaurants. Go to any decent bar and they will have a couple of craft seasonal beers on tap.

OTR I am kinda meh about. They have some nice areas, but there comes a time when "trendy" gets a little too expensive and a little too crowded. Went to Senate a year or so ago and spent $75 on a cheeseburger, hot dog, and beer.

Re: Why hasn't Cincinnati grown as a city?

BTW, downtown is absolutely growing - it has been growing about 12% a year since 2009 - not sure any area should grow any quicker than that. It will likely increase over the next few years as the next phases of the Banks and condos in OTR emerge. My guess is that the casino will also significantly help Pendleton and the eastern portion of OTR. There has also been a 25% crime drop in the past 10 years.

Again, downtown Cincinnati is far from perfect but IMO it's much better than any downtown area in the region outside of Chicago.

Re: Why hasn't Cincinnati grown as a city?

Originally Posted by Bob Sheed

I have hung out in 7 or 8 different college towns. There are some sketchy parts outside of OSU. Beyond that, I have yet to find anything even remotely as sketchy as Clifton. And on campus? Nowhere else even comes close.

I never said Cincinnati wasn't safe. Comparatively, I think it is quite safe.

But Clifton, compared to most other college areas? It's not even close.

I've lived on and off campus at OSU and lived off campus in Clifton, and OSU is more Disney-fied, but it's really not that big of a difference. I never had problems running at night around either campus.

But it's been 10-11 years since I lived in Clifton, so it could be worse now I guess.

We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
--Oscar Wilde

Re: Why hasn't Cincinnati grown as a city?

Originally Posted by cooperlamar

BTW, downtown is absolutely growing - it has been growing about 12% a year since 2009 - not sure any area should grow any quicker than that. It will likely increase over the next few years as the next phases of the Banks and condos in OTR emerge. My guess is that the casino will also significantly help Pendleton and the eastern portion of OTR. There has also been a 25% crime drop in the past 10 years.

Again, downtown Cincinnati is far from perfect but IMO it's much better than any downtown area in the region outside of Chicago.

I looked (for fun, not really seriously) at a few of the condos going up in downtown Cincinnati when I was living there in 2008. I would love to have lived there, but there were a few major problems.

They ranged in price from about $200-220K for a studio or a one-bedroom. That, to me, seemed incredibly high, particularly for two reasons: 1. Property taxes notwithstanding, housing in Cincinnati tends to be cheap compared to other urban areas. $200K will buy you a lot of house in much of the city. So it seemed silly to spend that much money on a studio apartment. 2. Public transporation is difficult in Cincinnati. On the weekends, the exact time a resident of downtown would want to get out, maybe, it would take hours to get anywhere on a bus. That's the reason, IMHO, that a comparison with a city like Chicago can't be made. One of the major reasons one can usually afford a $200K condo downtown is because one saves a lot of money by not owning a car. That is not the case in Cincinnati.

At the time, too, there was little green space downtown, and not a single grocery store. I know the former has changed and maybe the latter has too. But you can't entice people to live downtown if they have to get in their cars and make a 20-minute drive every time they need to go to the grocery store, and you can't entice growing families to stay if they have to pay $220K for a one-bedroom and have really no choice to leave when their kids come along and they have nowhere to put them to sleep or take them to play. It seemed directly set up to appeal to young professionals, which is great, but all of those people who marry and have kids will eventually have to leave. I hope this has changed.

Re: Why hasn't Cincinnati grown as a city?

"When the end of the world comes, I want to be in Cincinnati. It is always ten years behind the times" ~ Mark Twain (unverified).

Geographically, Cincinnati's decline might in part be attributable to the completion of the Saint Lawrence Seaway in 1959.

The widow is gathering nettles for her children's dinner; a perfumed seigneur, delicately lounging in the Oeil de Boeuf, hath an alchemy whereby he will extract the third nettle and call it rent. ~ Carlyle

Re: Why hasn't Cincinnati grown as a city?

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

OTR I am kinda meh about. They have some nice areas, but there comes a time when "trendy" gets a little too expensive and a little too crowded. Went to Senate a year or so ago and spent $75 on a cheeseburger, hot dog, and beer.

Yes, those hot dogs at the Senate are good but they start at $10 and that doesn't include fries or anything else. Can a restaurant really survive long term with such a menu?

Re: Why hasn't Cincinnati grown as a city?

Wow, this thread took off! So much to discuss but I just want to add my two cents.

I live downtown and have for three years. I absolutely love it and would never move back to the suburbs. My wife walks to work which allowed us to sell one of our cars. The often cited problem of no grocery store in the neighborhood doesn't bother me at all; we didn't have one in any of the neighborhoods I lived in in Cleveland, Columbus, suburban Cincinnati or West Virginia. In fact all of the places I routinely shop for food now are closer than the places I shopped in other neighborhoods. Not only that but a lot is made up for by having the Reds as my next door neighbor!

As for Cincinnati Public Schools, I would send my kids to many of them without hesitation--including quite a few neighborhood schools. I teach at a neighborhood school that was just rated Excellent with Distinction and has minimal discipline problems. It is not in a remotely wealthy part of town and we have a large population of non-native English speakers. It is truly diverse with a great mix of families from various backgrounds. On top of it all the faculty and staff have high expectations for the students and themselves. I would send my kids to my school in a heartbeat. You don't necessarily have to go to a magnet school to receive a great education in the CPS system.

Re: Why hasn't Cincinnati grown as a city?

I'm not an expert on the economics of Cincy. However, I really have enjoyed spending a weekend in Cincy the last 3 Septembers. I have really found downtown Cincinnati a great place to visit. They seem to have a street festival at Fountain Square most weekends. The area around the ballpark is great. I also enjoyed the Underground Railroad Museum. The downtown seems incredibly safe to me.

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