Quote: As I stated every bodies testimony is different, in deed there are 80-90-100 year old smokers but on average this not the case a person that lives a fit life usually lives longer. Bottom line if you were a gambling man which would you wager on.

I think you missed my point. What I was trying to say is that while personal acounts and individual occurances may be useful to demonstrate a point, they hold very little weight as evidence.

Quote: But then again there are numerous cases where medical Doctors either couldn't or would not take time to cure a patince and Accupunture or herbal medicine helped cure them. This is a healing method that been done for centuries.

That it has been done for centuries does not mean that it is right or good. Perhaps it is because for hundreds of years people simply had nothing better?I think that the treatments you mentioned can help people and for some conditions may be a better option than drugs. But I feel their use is limited especially in more serious conditions/illnesses.

Quote: Like you if I have muscular, bone or obvious internal injuries I go to a Western Doctor. But they don't know everything and I've personally experienced cases if you have Insurance they try to pad there books and keep you as long as they can as a paying customer. Again I then have to finsih things myself.

Firstly, that doctors don't know everything doesn't mean that 'alternative' practices do. (Not that I think you were saying so).I'm from the UK so have NHS so don't have the problem you mentioned. I'd hope that this isn't the case for the majority of American patients? Perhaps some other USAians could give their view?

Neko, is it fair to say you have a negative view of doctors/western medicine?

Quote: As in any discussion we will hardly ever totally agree on all topics but it is good to debate these issues and lay our cards out on the table.

Cool, cool. Am enjoying the debate!

Quote: I think our mission in such discussion shouldn't be to convince one another just to bring forth our finding and understanding based on our own reality.

Our own reality? Don't really understand what you mean there!

I'm just trying to look at the facts. The thread was 'can kata have health/recovery benifits'. IMO Most certainly yes, but I don't think there is anything mysterious about those benifits, ala ki/chi, or that can't be described through modern thinking/science/western medicine.

Creative wrote - I think you missed my point. What I was trying to say is that while personal acounts and individual occurances may be useful to demonstrate a point, they hold very little weight as evidence.

456 - Granted but we go back to the question 'if a bear farts in the wood, does anybody hear it"? Does mean it didn't happen. Evidence is needed when retracing an event what happen sometime is far different then the evidence now shows. Just like history, it depend on who is telling His story.

Creative wrote - That it has been done for centuries does not mean that it is right or good. Perhaps it is because for hundreds of years people simply had nothing better?I think that the treatments you mentioned can help people and for some conditions may be a better option than drugs. But I feel their use is limited especially in more serious conditions/illnesses.

456 - I agree there are a lot of things done because of tradition or igornance. Usually when something better is found this stop my debate to this is the opposite something more Modren can't handle it so we go back to nature or basic and it works.

Creative wrote - Firstly, that doctors don't know everything doesn't mean that 'alternative' practices do. (Not that I think you were saying so).I'm from the UK so have NHS so don't have the problem you mentioned. I'd hope that this isn't the case for the majority of American patients? Perhaps some other USAians could give their view?

Neko, is it fair to say you have a negative view of doctors/western medicine?

456 - No I don't have a negative view of Doctors no more then I have a negative view of any other trade or profession but I do know the nature of Man he has his weakness. And some times we becomes pawns in their gain to pay for that new Bimmer or Benze or divorce so they can have the young intern. Such is life but don't waste my time or life with a Doctors wants. There are bad Policemen, Doctors, Nurses, Martial artist and Dictators all coruppted by selfish wants.

Our own reality? Don't really understand what you mean there! I'm just trying to look at the facts. The thread was 'can kata have health/recovery benifits'. IMO Most certainly yes, but I don't think there is anything mysterious about those benifits, ala ki/chi, or that can't be described through modern thinking/science/western medicine.

456 - Our own reality is based on the facts gathered from the things we've experienced and believe as fact or works for us. This is the basic of how and why some people see things differently. I believe in herbal, massage/accupressure and body healing by touch I also believe in Chi/Ki and prayer there are somethings that facts and evidence don't explain and is why medical science don't have the answer to all illiness. And starting this through certain Kata training. So when someone experience healing or power outside the norm I don't question it as much as I do try to understand it. I have witness know of and have experience force that I can't reproduce under normal situation but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. I may sound way out but really I'm middle of the road unlike some of my Senseis and other famous teachers I know of I don't believe in the benifit of the use magic Mushrooms, Snake oil wine, or Hashi induced medidation that causes enhance Chi developement like aura force fields, figures on the wall to move and tell secrets or Transculadental flight or Dimensional travel. So you see I am nearer to you then we are different. Like you I believe the evidnce shows that these jokers where just high.

Just a side note that pertains to the original post, though not necessarily where the discussion has gone: in his autobiography, "Karate-Do, My Way of Life," Funakoshi describes his method of dealing with illness, which was to "perform kata until sweat runs from the body." (Not an exact quote; I don't have my copy handy.

When I feel like I'm getting a cold, or have an allergy attack, I've had some success with sweating it out this way, though I can't say that kata would work any better than another sustained physical activity. When I've got a stomach thing, I don't even bother to try.

Someone else mentioned improvement of posture and balance; the curriculum I study contains mostly kata that are pretty symmetrical, which I think is beneficial for balance and for equally developing both sides of the body. I have noticed that many people spar in only one direction (I don't; I'm ambidextrous, meaning that I'm equally incompetent in both directions), so I can see where being forced to use both sides in a symmetrical kata could be beneficial as well.

Quote:It's seems to be a pattern from beginner to Master that the healing and destroying process of the Neija Martial arts are one.

The merdians and points to concentrate on are rubbed or struck in reverse in order to heal or destroy also breathing enhances these effects. This is a discipline that is part of Africa, Phillopiness and Indo-Asian arts as well Eastern Asian in my studies the 5 element principles have different names but the near same applications and principles.

Goju/Naha-Te from the 1st 6 month on you hear and train aspect of Ki/Chi developement channeling it and harvesting it to heal or destroy. This is started in the simple KATA of Sanchin the Naha-Te student is told that this is a Kata that he will practice throughtout kyu level well into his Dan ranking in this art, its purpose is to open the door to Iron shrit training. Most Naha-Te exponent go on to study Hsing-I/Bagua, Tachi Chaun, Yoga, or Silat to further harnashes and control this energy. As in the Goju Soke Miyagi in his study of Pakua and Tachi and his Student Toguchi a Yoga practictioner. I'm sure others followed a similar study but I know these two and many people that I've trained and studied with. In Naha-Te warm up exercise the toes and ankle are limbered up, lots of points on the foot.

I personally use the Tensho and Sanchin for stress relife. Also external muscular, tendon and internal organ strengthening. I know that I can deliever and with stand a heavier blow to the body if I breath during it. It is said that Breath is Life in the Internal arts of Neija, in this concept you see Float, Swallow, Spit, Sink theroy and the Iron Cotton concept all seen and started as part of Naha-Te training. Now I added this to show it is a need to know principle if you don't know you don't know. You are not there yet. It doesn't mean or is not a mark against you as a Martial art, I have BB students that don't gather it value, as I tell them there is nothing wrong with Blunt Trama it been working since the Cain and Able.

I haven't Mastered it but I know it's there I have felt it and delievered it but I haven't Mastered neither aspect of it. I beleive this training has help me avoid a stroke, stress of anixety, depression and high blood pressure because I can control my body through concentration and breathing. Somethings are not solid or for all to see because they don't want to, but like the wind you don't have to know where it comes from, to know that it can be powerful.

I know alot of words that don't mean nothing if you don't believe, it all starts with a Question and the Mind researches it. There is really something to the quote that "The Mind is the Warrior's strongest weapon".

Sorry but this is HS from beginning to end. You start from the position that chi is real, rather than a historical TCM explanation based on virtually total ignorance about physiology and anatomy, itself probably inherited from the ancient Greeks, who had similar beliefs about the balance of humors regulating health. Chi has been extensively investigated scientifically and found completely unproved, for which read non-existent.

As for strengthening your internal organs, what does that actually mean? Your liver or kidneys are physically stronger? Prove it. This is more pseudo-medical nonsense that you cannot substantiate. I also prefer my liver soft, not hard, as I am led to believe it works better this way, hardening being an indication of sclerosis. If by "organ strengthening" you mean "more efficient", then, again, prove it instead of making faith-based claims.

Reduced stress and stronger muscles come from most forms of exercise-kata offers nothing special in this sense and this hardly amounts to the "healing" or "balancing" (an imbalance in The Force maybe?) that you are so desperate to defend.

Kata has a lot of benefits but this "first grader", as you choose to call me, has been practicing kata for a quarter century without seeing any "healing" take place.

Contrary to your claims, it is not "all about belief", it is about not making supernatural and metaphysical claims that you cannot be back up. And getting offended when someone calls you on it. You must have some very gullible students...

Brad wrote - Sorry but this is HS from beginning to end. You start from the position that chi is real, rather than a historical TCM explanation based on virtually total ignorance about physiology and anatomy, itself probably inherited from the ancient Greeks, who had similar beliefs about the balance of humors regulating health. Chi has been extensively investigated scientifically and found completely unproved, for which read non-existent.

As for strengthening your internal organs, what does that actually mean? Your liver or kidneys are physically stronger? Prove it. This is more pseudo-medical nonsense that you cannot substantiate. I also prefer my liver soft, not hard, as I am led to believe it works better this way, hardening being an indication of sclerosis. If by "organ strengthening" you mean "more efficient", then, again, prove it instead of making faith-based claims.

Reduced stress and stronger muscles come from most forms of exercise-kata offers nothing special in this sense and this hardly amounts to the "healing" or "balancing" (an imbalance in The Force maybe?) that you are so desperate to defend.

Kata has a lot of benefits but this "first grader", as you choose to call me, has been practicing kata for a quarter century without seeing any "healing" take place.

Contrary to your claims, it is not "all about belief", it is about not making supernatural and metaphysical claims that you cannot be back up. And getting offended when someone calls you on it. You must have some very gullible students...

456 - Interesting points of views similar to Creative but less open to the possibility of some one else reality being their own. Interesting that you brought up the Greeks I'll add because they believed themself suprerior warriors they where for that time. The power of mental suggestion is a powerful source it spurs and bond the MBS. Its use is not uncommon or magic. But just like magic if you don't train or understand it you see it as impossible or a fake or a mircle, it is just training of illusion. The different in stage magic and White and Black magic is one pays big bucks (if you got a gimmick) the other two will take you to hell just my O. I bring this up because I hear the power of belife is so powerful that if u believe in Black/White magic I hear it can harm you and if you don't it can't. My point is each person reality is based on their experience in life and for this subject what they have trained in. As I stated in the intelligent discussion with Creative that my purpose is to tell my view not prove to anyone not even my students something is fact or fiction. Each person is entitle to believe what they want some people can only handle their truth/fact. As with some of my former student I just presented the training they absorb what they felt was functionable, some wanted only fighting skills, others wanted to learn control and other wanted confidnece each found their own journey as is the way of the martial arts. Now maybe this is what happened to you, you were not expose to this training so you don't believe or it was there and you choice to disregrad it. Whatever the case you are entitled to your own belife and reality. But there is a study of Accupressure/Accupuncture and massage that are based on Chi/Ki, though you say its not been proven clinics are abound here and aboard. Professional athelets uses these services when other forms are slow or don't work, and get good results. Of course you can find tells of the opposite as in fatal Western genral purpose operations with 90%+ success rating. It all depends on what that individual's body and mind is ready for, is the link to this topic.

Back on the main topic some people are introduce to Sanchin and Ten sho as normal forms to practice as part of the set, others train these Kata set aside form the fighting forms as a method of internal development that breath is strength and life. Personally I don't see anything mysterious about this and you don't need any help to find this out, hold your breath until you get weak or faint. The function of Man is biological, spirit and mental each can work separately or together the bond is what makes the person that believes (think) he is stronger or One.

As a senior told me of his sons travel though life, The son stated that,"When he was in high school, he thought his Dad was the dumbest and out of touch person that he had ever met". Now at 30 something his son states that after going through all the mess he had being disobedient doing things his way, he resolved That the older he got the smartert his Dad seemed. My point is experience is the greatest teacher obviouly our journey in the Martial art is different though years in train or close. But like this dumb Father my students some are Sokes of thier own system come back and tell me the son's story.

Your path in the martial art seem vested continue it and post what you find on the way. I will too.

We could both go get Google videos to support our view but that wouldn't be base on our personal experiences and wouldn't prove anything if we are interesting in proving something which I'm not. But I will discuss my views and belief.

For now let us agree to disagree. You post your views and I'll post mines, In the end if you were my teacher or I yours, our choices would still be our own.

Stacy3 - Unlike most fighting forms the principle of Sanchin, Ten sho or Qi-gong can be done sitting, walking or standing still it is more a mental control of mind, body and spirit. Some times the fight is not an external opponent its self/internal, Stress Kills. This is modern sceince as well as anicent. As Brad so boldly stated could be HS or not find what works for you.

Quote: 456 - Our own reality is based on the facts gathered from the things we've experienced and believe as fact or works for us. This is the basic of how and why some people see things differently.

I think you're use of 'reality' is different (correct but different) to the common definition.

Wikipedia

Quote: Reality, in everyday usage, means "the state of things as they actually exist"

Quote: I believe in herbal, massage/accupressure and body healing by touch..

Different aspects of the above things sit both sides of a blurred line. I think we are sitting on opposite sides of that line!

Quote:...I also believe in Chi/Ki and prayer there are somethings that facts and evidence don't explain and is why medical science don't have the answer to all illiness.

Medical science does not have all the answers because it is still young. I'm not saying that it ever will have all the answers. But just because it does not understand something, does not mean the answer is magic.Also I'm quite sure science has looked to some extent into both prayer and ki/chi. The evidence is there to be interpretted.

Quote: So when someone experience healing or power outside the norm I don't question it as much as I do try to understand it.

You must question it to understand it. Otherwise you can end up beliving thing like smoking allows you to live to old age etc.

Quote: I have witness know of and have experience force that I can't reproduce under normal situation but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. I may sound way out but really I'm middle of the road unlike some of my Senseis and other famous teachers I know of.

lol.

Quote: I don't believe in the benifit of the use magic Mushrooms, Snake oil wine, or Hashi induced medidation that causes enhance Chi developement like aura force fields, figures on the wall to move and tell secrets or Transculadental flight or Dimensional travel. So you see I am nearer to you then we are different. Like you I believe the evidnce shows that these jokers where just high.

So scientific evidence can be used to validate these claims, but not others? How do you decided which 'alternative medicine' falls under the banner of science. IMO all do.

Quote: My reality is not their's, by a mile or least by a joint.

IMO it would be far better for the actual benifits of karate/kata training to be honestly and acurately assessed. I'm sure that way it could be better ustilised.

Off topic. This is my same thoughts when it comes to application of kata. IMO more karateka should moved away from the 'kata does everything' 'kata training has no weaknesses' etc etc POV. I'm sure the debates wouldn't be kata vs. mma or what ever, but perhaps functional training (including kata) vs disfunctional training.

Reality, in everyday usage, means "the state of things as they actually exist"

456 - I agree but what exist to one doesn't mean it is reality to another, which is why we have our debate.

I only used the thought of Magic to say that people believe in different things and some base/waste an entire life on it. My reply to Brad was a little vage because he seems to be asking for proof over the internet. There is proof in touch in that two or three slight strikes to certain points of the body weaken or collaspes the body. And that rubbing or massaging these points can help heal certain illiness.

As for kata being the fix all heal all I don't beleive that. I don't believe Kata teaches how to fight it is after thought as in knowing a topic and reserching it. After learning how to fight you can see fighting method in the form. Probably the same way in given a speech you can refine it by using a diticonary/Kata.

I do believe that there are fighting Kata and energy storing/short range delivery forms that open the door to Neija training. Kata doesn't fix or solve anything its just part of turning the key to open the door. There is no magic.

One Chi/Ki exponent used this simple explaination. We understand that under stress the body is capable of great speed & power, As in the small mother lifting a Tractor or Car off her Son. This is called an andrenlin rush or ADR for short. He goes on to state, "Imagne being able to summon this type energy up at will. It's not magic its already part of our make up, I believe". I find it in all of my training from Silat, Goju,... to Jujitsu. Brad stated that even the anicent Greeks beleieved in some type of method of energy channeling.

I hear some people talk about being afraid in a fight. This changes slightly weather this is experience from being there and doing it or Mental re-channelling the feeling, that same fear can be channel to make us move faster and be more powerful. Its part of beleiving I am a layman and purposely fall in the bunch of no deep explaination for things I know works for me. There is a reason we train the way we do, there is a reason why Neija base system think the was way we do. Ideals are a part of our Training.

I find it interesting in that similar trained exponents see things differently when I see it in their movement and training, maybe a case of whatever works with no explaination taken to heart. Or maybe a scienitific explanation that explains the event without the metphors. What one believes is a powerful thing, in that it sets his views.

You said: "...less open to the possibility of some one else reality being their own."

However "reality" in its usual meaning is an absolute concept, not a subjective thing dependent on any person's feeling or belief.

Chi/Ki has never been shown to exist despite extensive research and testing. The many TCM clinics do not make chi any more real. Acupuncture has been shown to be effective because it releases endorphins, nothing to do with mystical energy channels. I have had it and it works fine. For other things it has been found no more effective than a placebo.

You believing that it exists or that you have experienced it still does not make it real. The body can do amazing things without having to resort to supernatural explanations.

"We could both go get Google videos to support our view..."

If you can actually show me videos that demonstrate the existence of chi under scientifically controlled conditions where the tests are carried out by impartial academics, I would be very interested to see them.

Since I make no claims that kata can heal illness, as you say you believe, I am under no obligation to prove a negative. However if you assert it-which you are perfectly entitled to do obviously-then the onus falls on you to back it up surely?

As they say there, if chi is energy, then it must be measurable, as we can easily measure light, heat, radiation and other kinds of energy, so why not chi if it exists?

Finally and off-topic, your son & senior are roughly quoting Mark Twain FWIW: "When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years. "

"Brad stated that even the anicent Greeks beleieved in some type of method of energy channeling."

Please don't use me to back up your beliefs-I said the Greeks believed this because they apparently did and it was possibly the source of TCM and I made very clear that the ancient Greeks 2.5 thousand years ago were as mistaken as TCM practicioners then and now. Again you confuse reality and belief (they really believed it but it does not make it real!)

"There is proof in touch in that two or three slight strikes to certain points of the body weaken or collaspes the body."

Nothing to do with ki though. I have seen people hit quite lightly and show strong reactions that you might expect only from a hard strike and I have done it myself and been on the receiving end. However there are numerous reasons why this can happen, all of them physical (relating to stimulation of nerve bundles and firing off measurable electricity in muscles for example) none of them requiring mystical and undemonstrable chi energy.

"And that rubbing or massaging these points can help heal certain illiness."

Again with the crazy claims (which illnesses, who and where?) that you decline to substantiate...

Quote: TCM explanation based on virtually total ignorance about physiology and anatomy, itself probably inherited from the ancient Greeks, who had similar beliefs about the balance of humors regulating health. Chi has been extensively investigated scientifically and found completely unproved, for which read non-existent.

Please cite the studies where this was done.

It's not my intention to prove whether or not chi exists, however, keep in mind that the term is often poorly translated, defined, or purposely misused by charlatans who cater to Westerners jedi fantasies.

Benson developed the "relaxation response," which he describes as "a physiological state opposite to stress." It is characterized by decreases in metabolism, breathing rate, heart rate, and blood pressure . He and others have amassed evidence that it can help those suffering from illnesses caused or exacerbated by stress. Benson and colleagues use it to treat anxiety, mild and moderate depression, high blood pressure, heartbeat irregularities, excessive anger, insomnia, and even infertility .[...]The researchers also made measurements on practitioners of other forms of advanced meditation in Sikkim, India. They were astonished to find that these monks could lower their metabolism by 64 percent. "It was an astounding, breathtaking [no pun intended] result," Benson exclaims.

To put that decrease in perspective, metabolism, or oxygen consumption, drops only 10-15 percent in sleep and about 17 percent during simple meditation.

This is one example of a scientist actually measuring the effects of what the Chinese would call 'chi'. These monks were able to raise their body temperature enough to dry wet blankets in freezing temperatures. Keep in mind, that this defies the Western conception of physiology (people aren't supposed to be able to raise their core temperatures like this without passing out, or dying).

So part of the reason why we might not know much about this 'stuff' is simply because it does not fit into our current conceptions of physiology/anatomy, and therefore remains difficult to 'prove,' until the conception changes.

I'd also suggest looking into the current revolution going on in cognitive therapy, in which ancient Buddhist mindfulness practices are being used to treat major psycological issues--then I'd like to hear you say again that these people had "virtually total ignorance about physiology and anatomy".

--Chris

_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."--Basho