Also, we’re still #1 at Powell’s! Suck it, Stephenie Meyer. ETA: As of 4 p.m. CST, we’re back down to number 2. It was a good run, though, especially for International No Diet Day! Thanks again, everyone.

The two-whole-cakes post at fatshonista is great. I need my daily dose of rational food thinking. And Fat Satan…ZOMG.

I’ve got teh boobies but the Marks and Spencer thing doesn’t bother me. Its sucks that the charge more for bigger bras, but that’s their right as a private business. If it bugs customers, the best thing to do is to vote with your feet/wallet and go somewhere else for bras. If enough people agree, they’ll change their policy.

If it bugs customers, the best thing to do is to vote with your feet/wallet and go somewhere else for bras. If enough people agree, they’ll change their policy.

Yeah, not if there’s nowhere else to go. (See also: airlines.) I’m glad the article mentioned other options for affordable bigger bras, and the internet has opened up a whole world of new options, but it’s still very much like plus-size shopping — your options are limited to begin with, and the bigger your size, the more likely it is you’ll be stuck taking whatever you can get from anyone who’s selling it. The free market can only sort this shit out if there’s enough real competition for people’s choices to reflect their actual preferences, as opposed to desperation.

But the article goes on to say that several other stores (including extended-sizes stores) have capitalized on the policy by advertising themselves as “one price for all” stores. There doesn’t seem to be a shortage of competition in this market. If anything, it serves as a beautiful example of laissez-faire economics, where a firm manages to profit by improving upon the bad policies of another.

If anything, it serves as a beautiful example of laissez-faire economics, where a firm manages to profit by improving upon the bad policies of another.

Sure, but if the customers hadn’t made a fuss and loudly proclaimed they were going elsewhere, would this have happened? Nobody’s suggesting that Marks and Spencers should be required by law to carry all size bras at a single price.

Yeah, laissez-faire economics doesn’t JUST work by not buying something, because that could be for any reason, and in a prejudiced society the reason will often sound like the prejudice inside the head of the wonks deciding. (Like, “fat women don’t want nice bras, the slovens.”)

The reason there are focus groups and surveys and complaint lines is because businesses cannot read people’s minds. If it’s just falling sales, and not complaints or controversy, then it doesn’t mean anything specific.

Much like in conflict between individuals, “you know what you did, I’m not participating anymore” doesn’t really address or change the behaviour.

And against serious prejudice, ie :”women are too emotional to be doctors”, you sometimes have to fight the perception a long time before the market is ready to decide a new way (by hiring doctors, for example).

Markets work on public perception. It’s why there is marketing. A lot of the market is *based on* creating demand. Changing public perception through outcry and demand rather than just at the till is as free market as Superbowl advertising.

Carla: not quite; the article says that exactly one store (ASDA) is one price for all, and that some “specialty online retailers” are extended-size.

(I’d also like to note that in the UK, the specialty bra store that advertises itself as being hugely extended-size (bravissimo) only goes up to a 40 band, leaving people such as myself (who wear, say, a 42H *innocent whistling*) Up Shit Creek.

In Germany, there is exactly one bra line that goes up that far, cup-size-wise and they cost EUR 80+. Don’t tell me I have other options; I don’t. I’ve checked.

The customers have every right to be upset, and if they want to make a fuss, great.

The way Kate replied to my initial comment led me to believe that she though there should be some sort of government intervention, because she basically sees the situation as a market failure. If I’m wrong, I’m sorry, I just read it as Kate saying the M&S should be required to provide bras at a certain price, which I can’t agree with.

I love that the bra article ends with this: She said the company loses money by selling oversize bras for as little as 4 pounds ($6), but does not want larger women to be charged extra. “Oversize”? I mean, I know we’ve had this conversation many times about “overweight,” but at least there’s a (bullshit, arbitrary) chart to back that one up. “Oversize” = “Over the size where we decide women are suckers.”

Generally on the issue of economics, I find it really funny that stuff that conglomerates and speaks for individuals (like unions and protests) are seen as outside the market, whereas stuff that conglomerates and speaks for corporations (like cartels and advertising) are seen as market forces.

Public perception is what’s being bought and sold in all these exchanges. When the free market folks suggest that individuals only get to consume in order to affect the market, they’re being really hopeful we don’t notice we’re actually way more powerful than that. The market needs us, because the market is all surface; we’re the depth.

Eventually, the market comes to find anyone being interesting – Kate and Marianne are being published because they were so fabulous and we needed them so much that we flocked to them and got big enough the market noticed. And I’m all for that.

But we voted by being here everyday, before the money got involved. Fillyjonk and Sweet Machine voted by contributing to the blog. I voted by not shutting up when confronted with size prejudice. Without all of us yapping out there, the market never would have picked up on this.

FA has been around a long long time, and the market’s flirted with it, but they hadn’t figured out how to sell it yet. I think now might be the time – the lack of science makes it possible, but it’s the conflict with The Biggest Loser that’s great marketing tension. Of course that’s really a very surface way of actually understanding what’s going on with PEOPLE; the market IS very surface, and that’s why we need not to just sit down and shut up. We need to move around enough to be visible.

After all, the market would and does happily support slavery and segregation.

Not saying bras fall into that category, but I also wouldn’t discount it without looking at the argument. If there are no other bras available, and the market doesn’t respond because it’s a minority not getting attention, and the lack of suitable undergarments prevent a barrier to economic entry, then it’s a discussion to have. That’s a lot of ifs, of course. But the market needs an underclass, and most of descrimination legislation is to attempt to make sure that underclass is due to “merit” and “hard work” rather than things inherent to a class of people.

What I wouldn’t be OK with would be forcing a store (by law) to provide bras at a certain price.

Yeah, I wasn’t talking about legally forcing anything. I was just saying I don’t have faith in the market to work this out — meaning women with big boobs are essentially screwed, not that the government should step in.

Bahahaha, two whole cakes! I love it. I also love that you guys are ahead of Twilight 2. Congrats :)
I do have to agree that M&S shouldn’t charge more for bigger sizes, but all kinds of places do that.. T-shirts are one example I can think of, online, usually sizes 2X and larger carry an extra 1 or 2 dollars cost.

I bought 2 bras at Lane Bryant this weekend, same style just different colors. The black one was 2 dollars less than the purple one. Same size, same style, and I can’t imagine purple dye costs any more than black dye (probably less!). So, WTF is with that? I’m being punished for wanting prettier colors than black or beige?

I have a bit of mild secondary animosity towards Stephanie Meyer for the standard feminist reasons, but even if I didn’t I would still be deeply thrilled by The Book’s kicking of ass!

Ditto :) I wish I had the funds to buy it right now but as I barely made rent last month with successfully putting my account in the hole I think I need to hold off a bit. I was hoping there might at least have been one copy in my county library system, but alas, diet books seem to be viewed as a better buy, which just kinda sickens me. I mean, sure, I get that in our fatty hating culture they circulate hella a lot, but at some point when faced with all those diet books you gotta assume they don’t work when out society still has fat people running amok.

Anyway, financial woes of mine leading to my having to wait on reading the book aside, I have to say to the whole bra thing, it sucks in general that women have to pay as much as they do for undergarments to begin with – which leads me to think the outrageous prices of some of them is a feminist issue to begin with. Good bras on sale tend to run at least $30-$40, $20 or less is a steal. Why are they so fracking expensive? You honestly can’t convince me that it costs that damn much money to have a kid in Taiwan stitch together some decent fabric and wire (not that I’m in favor of child labor, but still). We seriously have to pay that much for underwear just cause we have boobies? Even if you want to stick it to the bra makers and go for a cami the typical cami is at least $7 on sale, usually $15 regular when you can buy a pack of three mens’ tank tops for $5 almost all the time.

I know, I know, nobody’s forcing anyone to wear a bra, but the plain truth of it is that unfortunately a lot of people still won’t take you as seriously if you’re above a B cup size and decide to freeboob it. Not to mention it’s just a lot more comfortable to run and be active with a little support for help. Why do we have to pay so much more to be comfortable when we’re active? Mens’ jock straps (and I admit, I don’t buy them often so I’m mostly going on what I see online and what my dad says he pays) often aren’t more than $10, $15 tops if by a top brand when women’s sports bras are usually double that by a top brand or designer.

This is slightly off-topic, but I had to vent, and I figured I might be able to do it here:

I ordered a bridesmaid’s dress yesterday. (I bet you can see where this is going.) I usually wear a size 16-18 dress. The dress is in a cut and color that is flattering to me. So I’m excited about this dress. But bridesmaids’ dresses ALWAYS run small, so I have to order a 20, which, ok, blows, but I can handle that. Except for the 40 DOLLARS EXTRA I have to pay once you hit a size 20.

40. Dollars.

I’m holding out hope that all dresses size 20+ come with a puppy, and that’s why it’s extra.

I have to admit that I had never even noticed that M&S charge more for larger bras, despite getting the majority of my 38G collection there.
It might be a couple of quid more than a 38B or some such size, but its still less than £20 per bra. And they last a good year before complete underwire failure happens.
To put this in perspective the other choices for bigger bras round my area is either asda, la senza, or bravissimo asda bras are ridiculously cheap and always fall apart in a week. La senza bras are about the same price as M&S and they last me a month, if I’m lucky. Bravissimo are well out of my price range, I do not have the kind of income that allows a £50+ bra.
So M&S might be being a bit shit, but they’re still a hell of a lot better than the competition.

I don’t actually mind the larger bras costing more. I actually agree with what the company spokesperson said – larger breasts need more support structure, and that structure is going to cost more to manufacture than for smaller breasts. And the difference isn’t that much. (Though the difference is probably greater than the difference in manufacturing costs.)

I just wish my M&S carried bras above a C cup. They claim to have one of the biggest ranges of bra sizes in the city, and the sad thing is, they do. If I needed to buy a bra, I’d have to go to an insanely expensive specialty shop that caters to men (at least all of their ads are targeted to men). They only carry sexy lingerie, which is great, but if I want an ordinary everyday bra I have to wait until I go back to the US and buy one at Lane Bryant.

What irks me about the M and S large bra range is not that they cost more than smaller bras, but that they seem to use a completely different sizing system to their ‘normal’ range bras. I have a 32 DD bra from them which is larger than another I own which is meant to be 32 E. It makes NO SENSE.

@Lesley, well, there are artisanal butters, if that counts! Sometimes at places like Whole Foods, they keep them in the cheese case instead of the ordinary milk-eggs-butter dairy case. Cultured cream, fleur de sel, product from a limited region, whatever.

My cup size is a ginourmous K. I refuse to buy online because the fit will likely not work. Lane Bryant goes up to an F in store, but I find their bras uncomfortable. I have mentioned the store {intimacy} before. They are incredible with sizing and extremely non-judgmental. Their store in NYC is where women get sized on What Not to Wear. Stores are mostly on the east coast and in Dallas, Chicago, Miami, and San Diego.

I just went to my favorite infertility blog (www.alittlepregnant.com), and there was an ad for your book.

Oh, cool! We had (and still mostly have) no idea where the publisher bought ads, so it’s amusing to hear reports from the field. (I noticed them running on Feministing, Feministe, and Bitch PhD, but that’s it.) Yesterday, a friend of mine posted a picture of herself with the book on Facebook, and some other friend of hers (who has no idea who I am) was like, “Hey, I just saw that advertised on Cakewrecks!” Which totally made my day.

To Ostara and anyone else who is hoping to get the book from their library: Don’t just wait and hope in silence. ASK THEM. Libraries base their book-buying partly on the requests they receive.

Make a note of the title, authors’ names, and ISBN (Lessons from the Fat-O-Sphere: Quit Dieting and Declare a Truce with Your Body.
by Kate Harding and Marianne Kirby. ISBN: 0399534970. ) and then call or show up in person or find a link on the library’s website, whatever, and tell them you want to read this book and want the library to buy it. Ask local friends to request it too; the number of requests counts.