tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post9025720422164101362..comments2016-03-09T11:32:05.283-05:00Comments on GROGNARDIA: Old School Building BlocksJames Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comBlogger56125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-7755135729779095812008-10-26T05:20:00.000-04:002008-10-26T05:20:00.000-04:003e works ok without XP for gold, as long as the GM...3e works ok without XP for gold, as long as the GM allows PC wealth to deviate from the wealth-by-level chart. This is because PCs who gain gold and thus have more than standard wealth-by-level will have a much easier time in defeating bad guys and generally staying alive than will PCs who are high level but poor. <BR/><BR/>That said, IM3eC I only allow sale or purchase of stuff up to 3,000 gp; so you can buy a +1 sword but you can't sell that super-weapon for 100,000gp. One of the benefits is that it maintains GM control and lets me keep PCs balanced against each other.<BR/><BR/>In a previous campaign I allowed free buy/sale. The result was that if I gave out a cool weapon to keep the Fighter's power up, the Wizard player insisted it be sold and funds distributed amongst the party. Result - Fighter stayed weak, Wizard got even more powerful.S'monhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01173759805310975320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-29670917706783272422008-10-21T14:11:00.000-04:002008-10-21T14:11:00.000-04:00What happens when the BBEG is dead?Well, my friend...<I>What happens when the BBEG is dead?</I><BR/>Well, my friend, that's when a great campaign comes to a close. In my opinion it is important for a campaign to have such a close, instead of rattling on and slowly fading away like some mediocre fantasy-soap.<BR/><BR/>As such I'm not opposed to BBEGs per-se, but they should be introduced as part of a campaign, not in the general setting description.alexandrohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09456056647313914311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-1292928728399455472008-10-14T10:11:00.000-04:002008-10-14T10:11:00.000-04:00many of the problems people have in understanding ...<I>many of the problems people have in understanding old school RPGs stem from a confusion about exactly what "RPG" means in the context of these older games.</I><BR/><BR/>I think (and humbly suggest) that this point demands a post of its own: we know that role playing means different things to different people, and we acknowledge that Gary and others always said "as long as you're having fun you're doing it right," but I think there's a particular conception of roleplaying, that marries game and play-acting but isn't quite married to either one, that's characteristic of the old school. Since those days these strands have been pulled apart (into gameist/narrativist and many other directions): I'd love to know how you think they fit successfully together.richardthinkshttp://richardthinks.livejournal.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-83699240132647440232008-10-14T09:45:00.000-04:002008-10-14T09:45:00.000-04:00Yeah. The christmas tree effect was always a probl...<I>Yeah. The christmas tree effect was always a problem in some editions.</I><BR/><BR/>The fundamental choice is always between keeping character inherently "weak" and externalizing their power in the form of magic items or making characters inherently "strong" and either downplaying the importance of magic items or risking the possibility of their being even more powerful with their magic items.<BR/><BR/>My personal preference is to keep characters inherently weak and be stingy with magic items. This seems closer to the Gygaxian Methodology and it's a much better natural fit for long-term campaign play.James Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-3495349837656070002008-10-14T03:24:00.000-04:002008-10-14T03:24:00.000-04:00Rumcove, thank you. I haven't looked at the 2e boo...Rumcove, thank you. I haven't looked at the 2e books in years, so I had no idea. I have to say, I always approved of the gold=xp rule myself.kelvingreenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01928260185408072124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-77438663706638590312008-10-13T23:21:00.000-04:002008-10-13T23:21:00.000-04:00With the exception of perhpas once or twice in a c...With the exception of perhpas once or twice in a character's experience should they have enough coin and money to walk into Metropolis "X" and commission the Ungulating Sword of Doom from the local wizard/artisan/blacksmith with a spear in a river.<BR/><BR/>Eventually a goal or a want is such a driving force for a character/player, that designed or accidental money sinks thrown in their way will fail to deter them.<BR/><BR/>As a DM over the years the thing that always had me nervous was the player who slowly and surely over time hoarded every CP and EP they could find and didn't spend it. They eventually got smart enough to not tip their hand to me what it was they were looking to buy until they were ready and felt they had more than enough money.<BR/><BR/>And having THEIR treasure chests raided and stolen was a great way to earn animonsity both in game and RL. Chuckle. Even bad guys have adventuring parties.Vanadornhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04342660129465098326noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-76676593916716579392008-10-13T19:38:00.000-04:002008-10-13T19:38:00.000-04:00@kelvingreen"I wonder where we got the idea?"It wa...@kelvingreen<BR/><BR/><I>"I wonder where we got the idea?"</I><BR/><BR/>It was an optional rule in the 2nd Edition Dungeon Master's Guide, written in a tiny blue box.<BR/><BR/>Did anyone else play with a <I>'killing blow' bonus</I> (last to hit the monster) or was this a house rule?rumcovehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14182413740827218976noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-5488633754086612832008-10-13T17:01:00.000-04:002008-10-13T17:01:00.000-04:00Except if you look at the list, #2 and #3 are dire...<B>Except if you look at the list, #2 and #3 are direct contradictions, and #4 and #1 are out as ways to get them to spend it.</B><BR/><BR/>Noting a contradiction isn't the same as offering a criticism. So what if these goals are contradictory? A good contradiction creates interesting tensions in the dynamics of the game.<BR/><BR/>And #4 isn't "obviously out" by a long shot. Let's look at what James says again:<BR/><BR/><B>4. Make the acquisition of new magic-user spells difficult. They should rarely be available for outright purchase; when they are, they should cost ridiculous amounts of gold.</B><BR/><BR/>So getting the spell you want might require travel (which costs money), paying informants (which costs money, especially if the services of a sage are required), arranging an introduction to the wizard who possesses the spell (which may require bribes), and perhaps expensive gifts to soften up the wizards before the reaction roll dice are thrown. Assuming a good reaction only then might the PC earn the priviledge of purchasing the spell, for which he will pay out the nose. And you're telling me this isn't a good option for draing PC resources?Jeff Rientshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17493878980535235896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-12354902700619530512008-10-13T15:57:00.000-04:002008-10-13T15:57:00.000-04:00"I know, as a young man, seeing a 16th-level MU wi..."I know, as a young man, seeing a 16th-level MU with Gary's name attached to it having only 8 or 10 magic items had a profound impact on my own sense of what a high-level PC ought to be like."<BR/><BR/><BR/>Yeah. The christmas tree effect was always a problem in some editions.carmachuhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06037584604296331790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-89581167618463680752008-10-13T15:55:00.000-04:002008-10-13T15:55:00.000-04:00"I don't think I want to give the players any focu..."I don't think I want to give the players any focus on how to spend their gold. They should be coming up with their own ideas."<BR/><BR/>Except if you look at the list, #2 and #3 are direct contradictions, and #4and #1 are out as ways to get them to spend it.<BR/><BR/>Further #3 seems to imply you should give foucs to spending it...or bsaically draining it off.carmachuhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06037584604296331790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-62881597389636158512008-10-13T15:38:00.000-04:002008-10-13T15:38:00.000-04:00Oddly enough, we used gold=xp in 2e, but from the ...Oddly enough, we used gold=xp in 2e, but from the comments here, it wasn't in the rules by that point. I wonder where we got the idea?kelvingreenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01928260185408072124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-3202852398271047092008-10-13T15:30:00.000-04:002008-10-13T15:30:00.000-04:00The version in Rogue's Gallery is not the one play...<I>The version in Rogue's Gallery is not the one played in the Greyhawk campaign.</I><BR/><BR/>Indeed it's not. My point wasn't so much that <I>Rogues Gallery</I> presented old school notables as they were in their own campaigns so much as presented them as models for what high-level PCs ought to be like. I know, as a young man, seeing a 16th-level MU with Gary's name attached to it having only 8 or 10 magic items had a profound impact on my own sense of what a high-level PC ought to be like.James Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-25282099648790112352008-10-13T15:27:00.000-04:002008-10-13T15:27:00.000-04:00I even wonder if it hasn't played a significant ro...<I>I even wonder if it hasn't played a significant role in tilting the whole hobby in an amoral, anti-heroic direction.</I><BR/><BR/>I'd be amazed if that were the case. The number of gamers who actually used and understood the whole gold = XP set-up seems to be vanishingly small. I do, however, think it's quite possible that many new school trends arise out of the fact that playing <I>D&amp;D</I> as written is often a terribly unheroic experience. Dissatisfaction with this is almost certainly the genesis of many subsequent games.James Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-22841771654871651752008-10-13T15:25:00.000-04:002008-10-13T15:25:00.000-04:00A BBEG is a signal that the world has an end - wha...<I>A BBEG is a signal that the world has an end - what will you do when Sauron is dead?</I><BR/><BR/>Bingo. This is another way in which I think it becomes clear that <I>D&amp;D</I> campaigns don't "tell a story," but are instead a picaresque chronicle of fantastical exploits.James Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-62589682469643264962008-10-13T15:23:00.000-04:002008-10-13T15:23:00.000-04:00To me D&amp;D isn&#39;t about &quot;telling a stor...<I>To me D&amp;D isn&#39;t about &quot;telling a story&quot;, it&#39;s about playing a fantasy game.</I><BR/><BR/>It's a fine distinction, to be sure, but it's an important one and, not surprisingly, one I agree with. In some ways, I regret that we use the blanket term "roleplaying games" to cover a very wide variety of different games that are only vaguely related to one another. I sometimes suspect that many of the problems people have in understanding old school RPGs stem from a confusion about exactly what "RPG" means in the context of these older games.James Maliszewskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-52222589522220883682008-10-13T15:09:00.000-04:002008-10-13T15:09:00.000-04:00" A quick browse through The Rogues Gallery, for e..." A quick browse through The Rogues Gallery, for example, would quickly disavow anyone of that notion."<BR/><BR/>Gary Gygax, at least, is on record as saying that the "real" stats for Mordenkainen have never been published. The version in Rogue's Gallery is not the one played in the Greyhawk campaign.Willhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18403399118961902073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-78636073978030375692008-10-13T14:48:00.000-04:002008-10-13T14:48:00.000-04:00Wouldnt it be better to, instead, give the players...<B>Wouldnt it be better to, instead, give the players some focus to spend their gold and/or invest it land/buildings, whatever?</B><BR/><BR/>I don't think I want to give the players any focus on how to spend their gold. They should be coming up with their own ideas.Jeff Rientshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17493878980535235896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-84534826191010549172008-10-13T13:17:00.000-04:002008-10-13T13:17:00.000-04:00I dont know if I can agree with all that. Its seem...I dont know if I can agree with all that. Its seems contradictory.<BR/><BR/>Give XP for gold looted. Then proceeds to tell you to keep the players poor and hard to get items and spells.<BR/><BR/>Wouldnt it be better to, instead, give the players some focus to spend their gold and/or invest it land/buildings, whatever? Or buys spells? or items? Or cost to invest in gaining them?carmachuhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06037584604296331790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-86546212227497225452008-10-13T10:11:00.000-04:002008-10-13T10:11:00.000-04:00(Leaping into the "XP for gold" debate....)I've al...<I>(Leaping into the "XP for gold" debate....)</I><BR/><BR/>I've always thought of gold as its own reward - what player-characters do with it is where the reward comes in. That having been said, I've played in campaigns where gold was used for XP - and often the referee was fairly miserly (one of them being Michael Mornard, so you know of whom I speak). Not too surprisingly, we valued every single coin we came across. I now tend to think of this as the monetary equivalent of the debate over how many magic items to have floating around - not too many! I think it's worth noting that Gary was in favor of limiting both magic and treasure, and finding ways to remove them if things got out of whack (see <I>White Dwarf</I> #7 and <I>The Strategic Review</I> Vol. 2 No. 2): "By requiring players to work for experience, to <I>earn</I> their treasure, means that the opportunity to retain interest will remain. It will also mean that the rules will fit the existing situation, a dragon, balrog, or whatever will be a fearsome challenge rather than a pushover."<BR/><BR/>I have no difficulty with a system that provides experience on the basis of what each class is supposed to do; <A HREF="http://odd74.proboards76.com/index.cgi?board=campaignstories&action=display&thread=541&page=1#8258" REL="nofollow">in my friend Paul's campaign</A>, each class got a set of specific rewards, and it worked out pretty well. Interestingly enough, only thieves got experience for gold. :)vraymondhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05928494560036528653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-71763081740995479552008-10-13T09:32:00.000-04:002008-10-13T09:32:00.000-04:00addendum (like that other comment wasn't long enou...addendum (like that other comment wasn't long enough): IME RPG campaigns tend to be remarkably anti-heroic things. I think a lot of the story-first new school gaming comes out of a desire among some players to tell heroic stories, coupled with the tendency for players almost never to act heroically, in a literary sense. Xp for gp tends to accentuate this anti-heroic slant. I even wonder if it hasn't played a significant role in tilting the whole hobby in an amoral, anti-heroic direction.richardthinkshttp://richardthinks.livejournal.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-55171311974772755072008-10-13T09:27:00.000-04:002008-10-13T09:27:00.000-04:00gp=xp &quot;gives the players a completely open pl...gp=xp &quot;gives the players a completely open playing field.&quot;<BR/><BR/>Disagree: any token, including coins, is a sign of DM steering; cf Mario/other side-scrollers. Also, it throws the game into a deliberately acquisitive direction. It worked like a cancer in the D&amp;D campaigns I played in. Conan and Fafhrd are fun characters and they definitely prized gold, but the money=success/greed is good formula sits uncomfortably with a wide variety of other literary ideas of heroism. <I>We don't care</I>, you say, <I>this is pulp fantasy.</I> Well, some of pulp fantasy: Flash Gordon and John Carter weren't in it for the cash, and gp=xp makes it hard to make other goals (already mostly unfamiliar to many of us out hear ITRW) attractive.<BR/><BR/><I>Big bad evil guy</I>: Agree, but mostly from a mechanical perspective. A BBEG is a signal that the world has an end - what will you do when Sauron is dead? THe Flash Gordon response is "resurrect Ming," but this gets you quickly into soap opera territory. As for <I>all evil leading back to one source,</I> well, that's the devil, right, and he shows up in many guises...richardthinkshttp://richardthinks.livejournal.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-13223178016656592008-10-13T04:33:00.000-04:002008-10-13T04:33:00.000-04:00I like XP for gold. One has to remember that D&amp...I like XP for gold. One has to remember that D&amp;D is <I>a game</I>. Game rules do not necessarily have to be wholly logical in the &quot;real world.&quot; <BR/><BR/>Contrary to people who say things like, &quot;I like [such and such game] because the rules fade into the background...&quot;, I actually think that in a game the rules shouldn&#39;t be viewed as &quot;background&quot;. They are part of the game, and influence how games go. But I guess my philosophy isn&#39;t the same as many other peoples. To me D&amp;D isn&#39;t about &quot;telling a story&quot;, it&#39;s about playing a fantasy game.Dan of Earthhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04957424338566461756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-29069262423133860882008-10-13T01:33:00.000-04:002008-10-13T01:33:00.000-04:00&gt;&gt; I can remember once too many times in 1E ...&gt;&gt; I can remember once too many times in 1E that my players would argue for more xp based on gold found or stolen from illegal/criminal behavior of the PCs.<BR/><BR/>Conan, Fafhrd and Grey Mouser, Cugel... sounds about right. :D<BR/><BR/>&gt;&gt;Instead, I would suggest awarding XP for effort and success.<BR/><BR/>This example sounds like a bit of railroading and GM heavy-handedness. &quot;What does the GM find important?&quot; rather than what the players wanted to do.<BR/><BR/>&quot;XP for gold&quot; is something I like because<BR/><BR/>A- it allows for amoral behavior without creating psychopaths amongst PCs.<BR/><BR/>B- Is an objective standard. Sure, the referee decides where the gold is, but the players can decide to chase the gold or not and know if their activities that session are things that advance them, or not.JimLotFPhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02992397707040836366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-19635165465212896952008-10-13T00:14:00.000-04:002008-10-13T00:14:00.000-04:00(aside/part-OT) Of course, magic items might be ra...(aside/part-OT) Of course, magic items might be rarer under particular circumstances, even if they weren&#39;t to begin with... e.g. http://piedpiperpublishing.yuku.com/reply/21937/#reply-21937<BR/>&lt;&lt;<BR/>Tenser (as a neutral wiz before turning goody-goddy) had red drgaons and was always complaining about fried magic items and massive lumps of recooling gold and silver which had been melted from their breath weapons. EGG loved telling him about all of the various items he&#39;d fried as ernie sifted through the charred remains (whether they were magical or not, Ernie never knew), and in detail... :)<BR/>&gt;&gt;<BR/><BR/>Heh, heh... ^^irbyzhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12215185881501392755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7487871339000666216.post-39450553895583280202008-10-12T23:15:00.000-04:002008-10-12T23:15:00.000-04:00&gt; That said, as Matt Finch notes above, none of...&gt; That said, as Matt Finch notes above, none of these building blocks can&#39;t be bent or twisted as appropriate to one&#39;s campaign circumstances; it&#39;s the general thrust of them that&#39;s important.<BR/><BR/>*nods*. Agreed on that, James, and indeed a useful list to keep tabs on the situation in general. <BR/>As with the aforementioned concept of &quot;challenging the presumption that the characters have a defined narrative pathway&quot; which I&#39;d also rope in as a &quot;building block&quot; whilst others might prefer to run their games more within more familiar narrative territory, yet still be far from entering videogame-RPGing mode.<BR/><BR/>Looking forward to that interview and listening to Mike&#39;s perspective. <BR/>Still scope for a degree of relativism, perhaps, on what &quot;rare&quot; might mean vs. &quot;the least... or the most/worst... one has seen&quot;?<BR/>Would also be interesting to know how that compares from a player/DM experience (Rob Kuntz, say) vs. those others who have studied the original material analytically such as Allan/grodog.<BR/><BR/>David.irbyzhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12215185881501392755noreply@blogger.com