Joined: Nov 23, 2002
Posts: 9478
Location: on the golf course, in the garden, reading, traveling, and now Consulting

Posted:
Tue Mar 14, 2006 2:08 am

Maximillian wrote:

TripwireDuel wrote:

Maximillian wrote:

What gets me is the personal he writes for the same turn he pulls this stunt. It is copied/pasted from the NL below.

Vet/All -- Am I to understand that the mentioned teams have been up to no good? Some
cheating??? If that's the case for such good managers who have great records and
warriors then I am incredibly disappointed. If it were up to me, in the case of all
such incidents would be sanctioned by the removal of their teams' prizes, titles and
any ability to participate in future events. Cheating is dishonorable and goes
against most of what I believe in. -- Blackstorm
P.S. If I was mistaken, then I apologize to those three mentioned teams. If not--
stay away from me!

What was that even in reference to? I looked at the PAds the turn before and saw nothing about cheating.

You have to go back to T-203. The Consortium manager known as "Vet" wrote a personal ad directed at Kat, Rillion and myself,(which I'm 99% sure was purely in jest) for making it a 3way lead in the contest. Obviously he failed to see the Consortiums sarcasm.

This was his personal.

We understand that Janix, Gryffindor, and Caress have been caught violating NCAA
requirements and given twelve month probations, including elimination from all
tournament participation. Too bad. We salute the NCAA. -- Vet, HOLD THAT TIGER
Manager

We can asure you that that WAS Consortium sacrasm! Kat, Rillion, & Max have certainly not done so, and are well respected by our group. we were hoping the NCAA would listen well and put them on probation/disqualification to pave the way for others - e.g. Vet.

We can asure you that that WAS Consortium sacrasm! Kat, Rillion, & Max have certainly not done so, and are well respected by our group. we were hoping the NCAA would listen well and put them on probation/disqualification to pave the way for others - e.g. Vet.

Aw, MAN! Do I have to give the car back now?

SentinelGrandmaster Poster

Joined: Mar 12, 2003
Posts: 971
Location: Bay Area, CA

Posted:
Tue Mar 14, 2006 6:43 am

Rillion wrote:

First line of the The Rules-
There are no challenges, avoids, bloodfeuds, or tourneys...
***

So sad that just 2 rounds from the finish someone had to blantantly break the rules and interfere in what had been a close contest for first. Congratulation on the win Kat. Too bad the a-hole managing Eye of the Storm had to taint it for you a little (although I suspect you would have won it had this not happen but now you got a 6 point lead instead of a 2-4 point lead).

Sorry to hear this. This is an inherent trouble with an "honor system" set of rules and--disturbingly--seems like it is almost inevitable, whether it is a blatant screw you like this or other more gray-area stuff. I know that there some some pretty egregious stuff that happened in another contest last year, people challenging into contests, loophole lawyers, etc. Like eBay, it's unfortunately a self-moderating system. Best you can do is try to find out the reasons for the breach and if it was blatant BS, castigate the person and try to inflict some pain on them in the arena and the DM community.

One of the lessons is for contest creators to try to leave as little as possible to the "honor system" and the discretion of the contestants.

How I wish we could all have a good time without having to deal with this kind of crap.

I know Blackstorm posted a personal a turn or two ago in 31. He said he is from France and his English isn't so good. Not sure if they factors in at all. That's all I know about him.

_________________The Icelord
1st Mage
The Council of Lords

Knight Protector of Chimlevtal

"I ran Mannequin out of Chimlevtal & Crysalis"

"...Wicked Hospitallers, each full of zeal and without weakness." - Imad-ad-Din, Moslem Chronicler

One Armed BanditArchMaster Poster

Joined: Apr 15, 2004
Posts: 2783

Posted:
Tue Mar 14, 2006 11:52 am

I am almost sure that this is an honest mistake.

I actually had to reread the rules, as I was under the assumption that one challenge, Bloodfeud, or Dark Arena was acceptable under the rules. Upon rereading, I discovered that it was only one Dark Arena fight that was allowed.

I think it would be an error to be too harsh on Blackstorm. Honestly, the last thing the DM world needs is for people to make D2 players feel so bad that they stop playing the game. Sure, dq him. Sure, cancel the -2 that the recipient of the challenge recieved. But I think we should start with the assumption that this was an honest mistake, perhaps helped along by English being a second language and not being able to detect the sarcasm in the Consortium's earlier post and not fully remembering the rules.

Street_LegalArchMaster Poster

Joined: Jul 29, 2002
Posts: 3535
Location: The Big D (etroit) area

Posted:
Wed Mar 15, 2006 11:41 am

I actually believe he was referring to Crip's post that stated that a Consortium had posted a PA for him giving him an extra point. This has me so far torn right now. I JUST now realized what happened from these posts. I'm torn between nullifying the fight and giving 2 points back; splitting the difference and giving a point back; or going by the original thought that ALL fights count. I need some time to think about how Rich might have handled this, after all this IS his contest not mine.

I believe it an honest mistake so this is tought. Blackstorm seems an amicable person and I could tell from his letter he sent me to enter the contest his English was spotty. I don't want to alienate a foreign player who clearly enjoys the game and am torn also on the +1 bonus. He cannot win any actual prizes so that DQ is moot but would anyone be offended if he got the +1 for sticking in? Provided he gets the few fights needed to qualify.

_________________A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.

Thomas Jefferson

ManagerrArchMaster Poster

Joined: Jul 12, 2002
Posts: 4138
Location: Omaha

Posted:
Wed Mar 15, 2006 11:55 am

Quote:

I actually believe he was referring to Crip's post that stated that a Consortium had posted a PA for him giving him an extra point.

OMG! Is this true? And this didn't cause a scandal?!?!?

KatGrandmaster Poster

Joined: Jan 09, 2003
Posts: 712
Location: DJI Central

Posted:
Wed Mar 15, 2006 1:01 pm

Street_Legal wrote:

I actually believe he was referring to Crip's post that stated that a Consortium had posted a PA for him giving him an extra point. This has me so far torn right now. I JUST now realized what happened from these posts. I'm torn between nullifying the fight and giving 2 points back; splitting the difference and giving a point back; or going by the original thought that ALL fights count. I need some time to think about how Rich might have handled this, after all this IS his contest not mine.

I believe it an honest mistake so this is tought. Blackstorm seems an amicable person and I could tell from his letter he sent me to enter the contest his English was spotty. I don't want to alienate a foreign player who clearly enjoys the game and am torn also on the +1 bonus. He cannot win any actual prizes so that DQ is moot but would anyone be offended if he got the +1 for sticking in? Provided he gets the few fights needed to qualify.

As Ferrari said in Casablanca, "I do not know why I tell you this, for it cannot possibly benefit me..." -

I think Blackstorm's DQ is just that. DQ from the contest. That's what rules - and contest integrity are all about. The +1 Iron Manager Award should be lost. Oversight or not, there are consequences to actions - and ignorance isn't a valid alibi. The rules state, "Break the no DA, challenge, or avoid rules (except avoids of non-contest teams) and you will be DQ'd as soon as the transgression is discovered. To keep the contest playing field as level as possible, we will have no messing with these rules." I did not see any stipulation mentioning if you live in a foreign country, were illiterate, had a 3-legged dog, or were from France.

Rillion should get 1pt back, and there's precidence as to why: I had a warrior killed on turn-1 by a non-contest team via challenge, and got 1 point back - so I think the same courtesy should be extended. This demonstrates consistency in rule-administration, and gives Blackstom some solice that his 'oversight' didn't cause his opponent too much damage.

UltraistGrandmaster Poster

Joined: Jul 10, 2002
Posts: 600
Location: Sunset DM# 21

Posted:
Wed Mar 15, 2006 1:19 pm

Street_Legal wrote:

I actually believe he was referring to Crip's post that stated that a Consortium had posted a PA for him giving him an extra point. This has me so far torn right now. I JUST now realized what happened from these posts. I'm torn between nullifying the fight and giving 2 points back; splitting the difference and giving a point back; or going by the original thought that ALL fights count. I need some time to think about how Rich might have handled this, after all this IS his contest not mine.

I believe it an honest mistake so this is tought. Blackstorm seems an amicable person and I could tell from his letter he sent me to enter the contest his English was spotty. I don't want to alienate a foreign player who clearly enjoys the game and am torn also on the +1 bonus. He cannot win any actual prizes so that DQ is moot but would anyone be offended if he got the +1 for sticking in? Provided he gets the few fights needed to qualify.

You're serious about giving someone a free pass just because they are foreign? Do you work for the government or something?

As an observer, I'd think glaring over an infraction like this would kill the credibility of your contest.

I tend to agree with Kat and Ultraist on this one. Simply because he's foreign and might have had no bad intentions is no reason to just hand him an out on this. The contest was going on in a slow arena for 10 damn months, during which he'd been active and had, according to the victim, Rillion, had other guys killed and not bloodfeuded.

You join the contest, you play by the rules. Whether you're being an A-hole, or just lazy and forgetful, break'em and so sorry, head to the *DQ* for some softserve to console your disqualified self. Especially with a rule break of this magnitude, at the end of the contest which could have easily made a difference in the final outcome.

I will abide by the moderator Street's decision, but I'd like to hear what Rillion would agree to, and I'd like to hear from Blackstorm. I don't think anybody wants to railroad him out of the game, we all agree we need to hold on to the players we've got and not scare off the younger managers.

But an explanation and an apology should be forthcoming, here or elsewhere (newsletter, yahoo forum) to the victim and all the other competitors.

_________________Stik
Grim Fandango (21)
Vicious Delite (33)

RillionArchMaster Poster

Joined: Jul 17, 2002
Posts: 1054

Posted:
Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:17 pm

From my perspective the minimum would be to completely throw out the score on the illegal challenge. I don't get dinged the -2 for a loss & death because someone broke the rules. As to if Blackstorm gets a +1 bonus potion or not I do not have that strong of an opinion, but if he does get one then exactly what penalty is there for breaking the rules and why didn't you let us know this earlier so we could have broken them as well.

TripwireDuelGrandmaster Poster

Joined: Jul 18, 2005
Posts: 939

Posted:
Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:48 pm

Rillion wrote:

From my perspective the minimum would be to completely throw out the score on the illegal challenge. I don't get dinged the -2 for a loss & death because someone broke the rules. As to if Blackstorm gets a +1 bonus potion or not I do not have that strong of an opinion, but if he does get one then exactly what penalty is there for breaking the rules and why didn't you let us know this earlier so we could have broken them as well.

I agree with Rillion. 0 should be given to all the warriors that lost or were killed. No penalty should be given. I also believe the rules were very clear. Foreign or no, he should not be allowed to continue the contest.

_________________Tripwire, Iron Council

KatGrandmaster Poster

Joined: Jan 09, 2003
Posts: 712
Location: DJI Central

Posted:
Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:55 pm

TripwireDuel wrote:

Rillion wrote:

From my perspective the minimum would be to completely throw out the score on the illegal challenge. I don't get dinged the -2 for a loss & death because someone broke the rules. As to if Blackstorm gets a +1 bonus potion or not I do not have that strong of an opinion, but if he does get one then exactly what penalty is there for breaking the rules and why didn't you let us know this earlier so we could have broken them as well.

I agree with Rillion. 0 should be given to all the warriors that lost or were killed. No penalty should be given. I also believe the rules were very clear. Foreign or no, he should not be allowed to continue the contest.

Ah - so if this is the case, I want my other point back from my death in turn-1.

Logical? Not really, but yes in the light of the argument. Give Rillion the point back for the death - but a loss is a loss.

RillionArchMaster Poster

Joined: Jul 17, 2002
Posts: 1054

Posted:
Thu Mar 16, 2006 9:21 am

Your death & loss were not from someone breaking the rules. They were from a non-contest team and while it was unfortunate and wasn't in the spirit of the contest, it wasn't a violation of the rules. By your logic, there should be no penalty if a team issues challenges and doesn't kill anyone. Perhaps Ginny might have won or killed someone if she hadn't been illegally challenged by a warrior with almost 8x her FE? I could have potentially gotten +2 points from her instead of the zero I think would be fair in this situation or the -2 as it stands now. Illegal fights should not be scored. What is unfair about that.

Street_LegalArchMaster Poster

Joined: Jul 29, 2002
Posts: 3535
Location: The Big D (etroit) area

Posted:
Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:21 am

Part of my reasoning was that I almost feel as if he may have lost track of the time table, or his comprehension of English is superior and his posts are made to deceive. He spoke of it being almost over, or over if the message got there late, at this point. The decision will be held in an attempt to clarify with Blackstorm why the BF occurred. Whether it was a protestant move against perceived cheating or total loss of track of the contest. Take into account that his English is gramatically good in the PAs but then again 2 years into my German classes I could grammatically put sentences together properly but barely understood their true meaning. I'm inclined to say NO to the bonus but wanted all to know that I was considering it and was interested in your input. Also it is an "award", not a prize, for participation.

The other issue is VERRRY troubling. There were in actuality quite a few challenges issued, by Mannequin, that were not affected in the scoring. Seeing as how Kat was awarded back a point I will be giving at least one point back to Rillion, my thanks to Kat for honestly reminding me (I had forgot), but I'm torn to give him 2 back. What makes it equally as difficult is my alliancemate being in first. My thought was originally one point back, which now bears to be a consistant thought, however I do not wish to seem as though it's a biased decision because of the standings. I have always respected Rillion (going back to Bloom County(?) in 33, I believe)so let it be known there is no conflict here, for me.

So Rill consider having at least one point more than you have, it's the most likely scenario!

_________________A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.