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Re: Elvis --> July 3, 1956 Acetates Mystery !

Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:15 pm

drjohncarpenter wrote:

Marko wrote:Wonder did she actually listened to all the acetates and compare them with the studio masters?

That is highly unlikely. Deary was not that kind of producer.

That's a great topic Doc.

In my humble opinion (I'm not that expert as you are & don't have good command of english language in order to write correct follow-ups here either) I just would like to say:

- the SUN acetates on that table were probably demos recorded at SUN Studio's by black artists and sent by Sam to Elvis. I guess they were recordings dated from end-1955 / beginning-1956.

- I do not think they were demos recorded by Elvis himself in 1954-55 prior he was engaged by RCA Victor. So, they should not be related to any Elvis unreleased SUN recordings.

Re: Elvis --> July 3, 1956 Acetates Mystery !

Fri Jul 06, 2012 3:43 am

Hound Dog 2000 wrote:That's a great topic Doc.

In my humble opinion (I'm not that expert as you are & don't have good command of english language in order to write correct follow-ups here either) I just would like to say:

- the SUN acetates on that table were probably demos recorded at SUN Studio's by black artists and sent by Sam to Elvis. I guess they were recordings dated from end-1955 / beginning-1956.

- I do not think they were demos recorded by Elvis himself in 1954-55 prior he was engaged by RCA Victor. So, they should not be related to any Elvis unreleased SUN recordings.

Thanks for the kind words.

I'm not sure what you mean about the demos we seen on the train in July 1956, but the ones from Sun are most likely songs Phillips put on acetate for Elvis to consider recording at his next RCA session. Sam was in touch with plenty of Memphis musicians and songwriters (like Barbara Pittman or Stan Kesler) and could easily have created discs for Presley's review.

Re: Elvis --> July 3, 1956 Acetates Mystery !

Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:44 am

Now that's a terrific post John - Can't believe this is the first time I've came across it. A great read!

Re: Elvis --> July 3, 1956 Acetates Mystery !

Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:25 am

who owns the song writers demos?like playing for keeps?be neat to hear more of the demos like on a 2nd vol of songs written for the king vol 2?

Re: Elvis --> July 3, 1956 Acetates Mystery !

Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:54 am

Julian Grant wrote:Now that's a terrific post John - Can't believe this is the first time I've came across it. A great read!

Thanks very much! I just wish I had some answers on this.

Re: Elvis --> July 3, 1956 Acetates Mystery !

Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:00 am

I just wonder why Sam Phillips mailed the demo's to New York. He could have easily dropped them off at Elvis' Memphis home or give them to Elvis personally (or have them handed over by one of his employees) at the airport or railway station when Elvis left for New York.

Re: Elvis --> July 3, 1956 Acetates Mystery !

Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:41 am

zolderopruiming1 wrote:I just wonder why Sam Phillips mailed the demo's to New York. He could have easily dropped them off at Elvis' Memphis home or give them to Elvis personally (or have them handed over by one of his employees) at the airport or railway station when Elvis left for New York.

Elvis had been on tour since June 22, and nowhere near Memphis prior to his upcoming New York session on Monday, July 2. So, if Sam was hoping for some recordings, perchance, in July, they needed to get there ASAP. Phillips could also have known Elvis would have a lot of down time on the train ride from New York to Tennessee after the session, a perfect opportunity to allow his songs to grab hold of the 21 year-old's imagination.

Re: Elvis --> July 3, 1956 Acetates Mystery !

Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:49 am

Are we sure these are acetates?

They could be 78rpm commercial discs

Re: Elvis --> July 3, 1956 Acetates Mystery !

Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:42 pm

MarkyMark77 wrote:Are those acetates at Graceland? Has Graceland been scoured for all manner of recordings? I know that's how we got the home recordings (first featured on "A Legendary Performer, vol. 4"), but could there be more hiding some where?

Have they looked behind all the cushions?!

Re: Elvis --> July 3, 1956 Acetates Mystery !

Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:24 pm

Tony.. wrote:

MarkyMark77 wrote:Are those acetates at Graceland? Has Graceland been scoured for all manner of recordings? I know that's how we got the home recordings (first featured on "A Legendary Performer, vol. 4"), but could there be more hiding some where?

Have they looked behind all the cushions?!

I think they have gone through all the stuff at Graceland. I think the last major find was in the 90's when they found Elvis's home recording tapes from the 60's (which were released on The Homerecordings and In A Prive Moment cd's). I believe they were found in Vernon's belongings and thus missed by Joan Deary in her reseach at Graceland in the early 80's. Deary went through the records that were stored in the tv room and found the home recordings refered by MarkyMark.

Of course we don't know if Lisa and/or Priscilla have any recordings. I think Lisa Marie said in some interview promoting Elvis By The Presley documentry that they have chosen not to share everything they have because they want to keep some things private.

"Steve Allen Show" national TV appearance in New York (July 1)"Hy Gardner Calling" live interview for local New York TV (July 1)Meeting with RCA President Frank Folsom (July 2)RCA New York recording session (July 2)Chance meeting with Gene Vincent at Penn Station (July 3)Benefit show in Memphis (July 4).

The RCA New York session, his last in the Big Apple, yielded three stunning masters:

Don't Be CruelHound DogAny Way You Want Me (That's How I Will Be)

Elvis at RCA New York, Monday, July 2, 1956Photo: Al Wertheimer

The first two would end up among the ten greatest recordings of his career.

Now, on the train ride home to Memphis on July 3, Elvis auditioned his work, on 78 RPM acetates cut after the session.

This is where it gets interesting. In one of legendary photographer Al Wertheimer's shots which I recently found, we see Presley listening intently to an acetate while languidly gazing out the window.

But strewn all over his cabin are at least a half dozen other 12" acetate discs.

Is Elvis listening to more than one take of his RCA session cuts of the day before? History has shown that "Hound Dog" ran to 31 takes before the singer stopped.

If so, what happened to the alternate RCA cuts on those acetates?

What could be in the Sun box? It had to have been sent by Sam Phillips to Elvis in New York.

Are they demos of songs Phillips hoped Elvis would record? Which ones?

Elvis at RCA New York, Monday, July 2, 1956Photo: Al Wertheimer

All of this is a bit of a surprise.

If anyone out there knows more, please share!

Great thread, Doc. Well spotted with the Sun Package...don't your eyes just light up when you see that Sun logo... I've seen pics of him listening to the demos, but not that particular one.

Re: Elvis --> July 3, 1956 Acetates Mystery !

Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:18 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:

KiwiAlan wrote:The demos would have been for the upcoming beginning of September session.

Duh

Duh, indeed. The September session had not yet been scheduled, but when the dates were in place RCA producer Steve Sholes sent suggestions and demos to Tom Parker's Hollywood suite at the Knickerbocker Hotel in August, including Stan Kesler's demo of "Playing For Keeps."

Sholes Letter to Parker, Friday, August 24, 1956

As may be seen, Sholes played Presley some material at RCA New York on July 2, from which Elvis gave a tentative OK to four selections. There is no mention of Steve sending Elvis home with any other material than copies of those, likely because that did not happen. And none of the Presley publishers took the ride down to Memphis, either.

Note that the letter I found does provide evidence that a few demos did make the train, because Elvis took the only copies. I have corrected my error above.

KiwiAlan wrote:... there is no evidence that he was listening to session outtakes either. I would have thought that session outtakes being made into acetates would be most unusual...

Elvis was not listening to any outtakes riding the train to Memphis on July 3, 1956. There cannot be "outtakes" to songs that have not yet been officially issued.

As noted, Elvis was certainly listening to, among others, the three projected master takes. In fact, he auditioned "Any Way You Want Me (That's How I Will Be)" for gal pal Barbara Hearn at his Memphis home the very next day.

Since there are clearly more than three 12" 78 RPM discs in that photo, maybe up to a dozen items, it is assumed that session alternates may also be among that group, perhaps made at Elvis' request. The July 2, 1956 session was the first where Presley was in full command, in essence serving as his own producer. It would seem logical he might have some alternates to give another listen to before telling RCA to go ahead and press the new single.

And since we see a 12" x 12" package from Sun Records, we may also assume he listened to something from 706 Union while riding that train. It's probably not his 1954 recording of "Tiger Man," though.

Boy!! "Rock 'n' Roll Ruby" and "Ooby Dooby" two great songs that came out of 706. Wonder what Elvis thought of them? Marvelous i would imagine.

Re: Elvis --> July 3, 1956 Acetates Mystery !

Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:23 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:The notion that Elvis received demos from Sam Phillips seems stronger after reviewing the record company's recent output. From January to June, Sun Records issued 10 singles.

It would seem that of these, Elvis would have had ample time to pick up copies of those that he wanted. From May 29 to June 21 he was in Memphis for about 14 days total, and no doubt dropped by Poplar Tunes and 706 Union during that period.

Elvis attended the Sun Records show at the Overton Park Shell in Memphis on Friday, June 1. On the bill that night: Carl Perkins and Johnny Cash, along with Warren Smith, Eddie Bond, and Roy Orbison. Wow.

Certainly Presley made sure to have most, if not all, of their newest platters.

On the other hand, to date Sam did not feel Elvis' RCA recordings had begun to capture the artist he nurtured. As a producer, friend and businessman, it makes sense Phillips would ship Elvis some more suitable material for consideration. Of course, after the RCA release of "Don't Be Cruel" in mid-July, Phillips told Steve Sholes they were getting it right at last.

Any additional information is welcome!

---

Here are the 78 RPM releases from Sun Records between January and June 1956:

January 1956Sun 230 - The Miller SistersThere's No Right Way To Do Me Wrong / You Can Tell Me

April 1956Sun 238 - Slim RhodesGonna Romp And Stomp / Bad Girl B-side features Brad Suggs on lead vocals, he plays guitar in Elvis' band at the February 25, 1961 Memphis shows.B-side also includes steel guitar by John Hughey, who does the same at American Sound in 1969 for "In The Ghetto," "From A Jack To A King" and "Rubberneckin'"

June 1956Sun 244 - Jean ChapelWelcome To The Club / I Won't Be Rockin' Tonight

Great stuff, Doc! Just look at the quality of those two pictures you've posted...of course, i've seen them before but not in that quality. Just love the one of Carl surrounded by those chicks...note the one, stepping on his blue suede shoes. Lay off them honey!

Re: Elvis --> July 3, 1956 Acetates Mystery !

Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:54 am

mysterytrainrideson wrote:Boy!! "Rock 'n' Roll Ruby" and "Ooby Dooby" two great songs that came out of 706. Wonder what Elvis thought of them? Marvelous i would imagine.

He certainly liked Sun 242 ("Ooby Dooby"), telling a Little Rock audience member in May 1956 that they could not honor a request for the Orbison hit, as they didn't know it, but wish that they did. And he likely heard around the same time that Sun 239 ("Rock 'N' Roll Ruby") by Warren Smith was selling so well in Memphis it was #1 in the local charts.

As noted on page 2, Elvis saw both of them in June at the Overton Park Shell, on a Sun package tour headlined by Carl Perkins. And in September he was seen with Smith in Memphis as well.

That Sholes, in his August 1956 RCA letter to Parker, would consider those Sun songs as "not heard" by Elvis is evidence of how little he understood Presley or the new music, and it's no surprise Elvis did not wax either tune in September at Radio Recorders.

Well, here it is, 2013, and the Sun acetates on that train so long ago are still ... mysterious!

Re: Elvis --> July 3, 1956 Acetates Mystery !

Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:11 pm

drjohncarpenter wrote:

mysterytrainrideson wrote:Boy!! "Rock 'n' Roll Ruby" and "Ooby Dooby" two great songs that came out of 706. Wonder what Elvis thought of them? Marvelous i would imagine.

He certainly liked Sun 242 ("Ooby Dooby"), telling a Little Rock audience member in May 1956 that they could not honor a request for the Orbison hit, as they didn't know it, but wish that they did. And he likely heard around the same time that Sun 239 ("Rock 'N' Roll Ruby") by Warren Smith was selling so well in Memphis it was #1 in the local charts.

As noted on page 2, Elvis saw both of them in June at the Overton Park Shell, on a Sun package tour headlined by Carl Perkins. And in September he was seen with Smith in Memphis as well.

That Sholes, in his August 1956 RCA letter to Parker, would consider those Sun songs as "not heard" by Elvis is evidence of how little he understood Presley or the new music, and it's no surprise Elvis did not wax either tune in September at Radio Recorders.

Well, here it is, 2013, and the Sun acetates on that train so long ago are still ... mysterious!

Doc, that suddenly occurred to me (before i came on here this morning) about what Elvis said to the Little Rock audience about "Ooby Dooby". But i took it, as meaning, he hadn't heard the song. But then i checked the date of the show from "The Young Man With The Big Beat" box set-May 16, 1956-i thought, hang on a minute, he must've heard the song because, if the photo of Elvis on the train taken by Werthiemer, with the Sun package, was in july and the Little Rock show was in may there's the answer. But of course, Doc, you've already posted the info before i came on here this morning and read your post. Great thread, Doc!!!!!

Re: Elvis --> July 3, 1956 Acetates Mystery !

Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:10 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:

Mitch wrote:Great topic!

I love reading all this information. Makes me wonder and pray that the outtakes for Hound Dog and Don't Be Cruel are still around and in someone's hands. I am 50 years old and I hope that IF they are out there somewhere that they get released in my lifetime!

That's two of us.

Thats 3 of us...would love to hear all takes of both songs....what an FTD that would be

Re: Elvis --> July 3, 1956 Acetates Mystery !

Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:32 pm

These acetates could very well be in the Vaults on the Graceland grounds, since they were Elvis' personal belongings. Time will tell.

Re: Elvis --> July 3, 1956 Acetates Mystery !

Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:33 am

mysterytrainrideson wrote:

drjohncarpenter wrote:

mysterytrainrideson wrote:Boy!! "Rock 'n' Roll Ruby" and "Ooby Dooby" two great songs that came out of 706. Wonder what Elvis thought of them? Marvelous i would imagine.

He certainly liked Sun 242 ("Ooby Dooby"), telling a Little Rock audience member in May 1956 that they could not honor a request for the Orbison hit, as they didn't know it, but wish that they did. And he likely heard around the same time that Sun 239 ("Rock 'N' Roll Ruby") by Warren Smith was selling so well in Memphis it was #1 in the local charts.

As noted on page 2, Elvis saw both of them in June at the Overton Park Shell, on a Sun package tour headlined by Carl Perkins. And in September he was seen with Smith in Memphis as well.

That Sholes, in his August 1956 RCA letter to Parker, would consider those Sun songs as "not heard" by Elvis is evidence of how little he understood Presley or the new music, and it's no surprise Elvis did not wax either tune in September at Radio Recorders.

Well, here it is, 2013, and the Sun acetates on that train so long ago are still ... mysterious!

Doc, that suddenly occurred to me (before i came on here this morning) about what Elvis said to the Little Rock audience about "Ooby Dooby". But i took it, as meaning, he hadn't heard the song. But then i checked the date of the show from "The Young Man With The Big Beat" box set-May 16, 1956-i thought, hang on a minute, he must've heard the song because, if the photo of Elvis on the train taken by Werthiemer, with the Sun package, was in july and the Little Rock show was in may there's the answer. But of course, Doc, you've already posted the info before i came on here this morning and read your post. Great thread, Doc!!!!!

Thanks for the very kind words!

Re: Elvis --> July 3, 1956 Acetates Mystery !

Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:50 am

I tried to find a possible connection between anything Sun and any upcoming RCA session and I came up with 3 possiblities.

Perhaps Elvis wanted material for his upcoming sessions and he asked Sam to send him demo's of :

Playing for Keeps, written by Stan Kessler, the writer of "im left your right she's gone".

Or perhaps he wanted a reference recording of "How do you think i feel" in which the band re-made in a nearly note for note re-make in the coming weeks.

Or perhaps it was another reference recording he wanted a disc of "When it rains it pours" in which he ended up recording the following February.