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Yea i agree that Unova's layout is rather messed up with little/ no training time between Nimbasa and Driftveil, but i never found my team severely underleveled.

On the subject of mixing up gym types i will voice my opinion : To make gyms a little less predictable all they have to do is throw in a unexpected dual type e.g. Skarmory with Skyla.
The striaton trio are not a great example to go by as they weren't overly powerful to begin with, and due to the fact you are given a pan-monkey superior to that of the leaders, it defeats the purpose. They don't need to go the extreme like with blue, but they could mix things up a little with movesets to make it more challenging.

The almighty Turtwig is my claim

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Some people would argue that the addition of just one Pokémon isn't enough. I'd rather have such a lower level of unpredictability be scattered throughout the entire gym, not just at the gym leader.

I can see where your coming from. One pokemon with a unexpected resistance can, in most cases be delt with, but if you fill a gym with loads of these, you have to rethink your entire strategy, because unless you are terribly overleveled there will be problems. So on a whole this becomes harder for the trainer.
Some could argue that flooding a gym with dual types to keep experienced gamers on their toes is just erasing the gyms 'type'.

The almighty Turtwig is my claim

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I can see where your coming from. One pokemon with a unexpected resistance can, in most cases be delt with, but if you fill a gym with loads of these, you have to rethink your entire strategy, because unless you are terribly overleveled there will be problems. So on a whole this becomes harder for the trainer.

You have 6 Pokemon
There really isn't any difficulty when it comes to dual types. You're bound to have something that either hits them super effectively, can take hits not very effectively, or something that can just plain take neutral hits while dealing neutral hits.

I can see where your coming from. One pokemon with a unexpected resistance can, in most cases be delt with, but if you fill a gym with loads of these, you have to rethink your entire strategy, because unless you are terribly overleveled there will be problems. So on a whole this becomes harder for the trainer.
Some could argue that flooding a gym with dual types to keep experienced gamers on their toes is just erasing the gyms 'type'.

I'd say that the primary rule for gyms is to have a centralized theme more so than a centralized type. It just so happens that the type corresponds to the theme.

For example, I'd imagine Skyla's gym to be perfectly fine with Swoobat, Crobat, Skarmory, Emolga, and Honchkrow, as long as the theme of the gym (its interior and such) stayed central to the Flying type.

On the subject of mixing up gym types i will voice my opinion : To make gyms a little less predictable all they have to do is throw in a unexpected dual type e.g. Skarmory with Skyla.
The striaton trio are not a great example to go by as they weren't overly powerful to begin with, and due to the fact you are given a pan-monkey superior to that of the leaders, it defeats the purpose. They don't need to go the extreme like with blue, but they could mix things up a little with movesets to make it more challenging.

Possibly, and they do this already, but it usually doesn't help much because you can still sweep through the rest with one Pokemon.

Originally Posted by LizardonX

Tabitha has really let himself go, just how many lava cookies did he eat in the last 11 years?

Possibly, and they do this already, but it usually doesn't help much because you can still sweep through the rest with one Pokemon.

At this point, I'd say it's up to the player to give themselves a challenge by not using the same one Pokémon. There's only so much the game can be adjusted to account for being able to sweep with just one Pokémon, after all.

Possibly, and they do this already, but it usually doesn't help much because you can still sweep through the rest with one Pokemon.

There's just not enough members in a gym leader's team to be able to have 2 checks to every one of the type's wekanesses. At least if gym leader's are still bound by the 3 pokemon rule next gen which I sincerely hope not. I like to gather a full 6 pokemon team ASAP, otherwise using extra members if the pokemon comes late. Having 4 pokemon able to adequately take on a 3-pokemon team gets old by the last gym.

There's just not enough members in a gym leader's team to be able to have 2 checks to every one of the type's wekanesses. At least if gym leader's are still bound by the 3 pokemon rule next gen which I sincerely hope not. I like to gather a full 6 pokemon team ASAP, otherwise using extra members if the pokemon comes late. Having 4 pokemon able to adequately take on a 3-pokemon team gets old by the last gym.

Your words having been said, I'd also appreciate it if the "three-Pokémon rule" were abolished in the future. Either that, or the Pokémon's levels could be, say, 4% higher or something than they are right now. The extra levels would be intended to make up for the fact that there wouldn't really be any room for checks and counters.

There's just not enough members in a gym leader's team to be able to have 2 checks to every one of the type's wekanesses.

Well at the very least, they should counter some of the more popular ones. For instance, Skyla definitely should've had something to counter Electric types, they're more viable than Flying's other weaknesses, and there's plenty of them nearby in Chargestone Cave.

Originally Posted by Aurath8

At least if gym leader's are still bound by the 3 pokemon rule next gen which I sincerely hope not. I like to gather a full 6 pokemon team ASAP, otherwise using extra members if the pokemon comes late. Having 4 pokemon able to adequately take on a 3-pokemon team gets old by the last gym.

Except that was never really a "rule" in the first place, that only happened this gen. Usually later gyms have 4 or 5 Pokemon. And they need to quit it with the whole "3 Pokemon for gym leaders, 4 Pokemon for Elite 4" formula they used this gen, it's unnecessary babying, especially now that the game has multiple difficulties now. They could've easily put the Normal mode rosters in Easy Mode and the Challenge Mode rosters in Normal Mode, that would've been more appropriate.

Originally Posted by LizardonX

Tabitha has really let himself go, just how many lava cookies did he eat in the last 11 years?

Now that I think about it, I don't know why they only made each Elite Four member only have four Pokémon instead of the usual five. It really wasn't needed, in my opinion.

It was especially disappointing in BW2, where despite having twice as many options the rosters were almost completely identical to BW1, the Challenge Mode rosters were everything the Normal Mode rosters should've been.

Originally Posted by LizardonX

Tabitha has really let himself go, just how many lava cookies did he eat in the last 11 years?

It was especially disappointing in BW2, where despite having twice as many options the rosters were almost completely identical to BW1, the Challenge Mode rosters were everything the Normal Mode rosters should've been.

I agree with you that at least if they kept the guideline of four Pokémon per Elite Four member, they could've vastly diversified their teams. Makes those who played BW feel sort of "cheated out" when fighting them in BW2, to say the least.

I don't like mixed gyms. I like gyms that specialize in one type. They give that Gym-like quality

This makes no sense. What about mono type gyms give it a "gym-like quality"?

I don't think there's anything wrong with mixed type gyms, in fact I'd like to see gyms with more complex themes that allow for more type diversity. For instance, you could have a ruins themed gym that uses Rock, Ground, Psychic, and Ghost types, a mountain themed gym that uses Rock, Ground, Steel, Fighting, and Ice types, etc.

Originally Posted by LizardonX

Tabitha has really let himself go, just how many lava cookies did he eat in the last 11 years?

What I personally like about most gyms is their theme. Not so much their type, because not every gym leader specializes in one type. At least for the Striaton Gym, the puzzle really nailed the importance of type advantages, whereas for Blue's gym, the sliding tile puzzle is reminiscent of the ease to lose track of having to deal with so many types.

To people talking about disliking the 3-Pokemon rule (2 for the first two gyms): How do you think you would feel if you were only aloud to fight them with the same amount of Pokemon that they fight you with? Meaning, for most of the Gym Leaders, you would have to choose 3 Pokemon.

I myself have been doing that with every Pokemon game since Platinum, but it doesn't help the difficulty much. There's another problem: Game Freak seems to have trouble determining the proper levels a Gym Leader should be at. In B/W, it seemed like all of the Gym Leaders were underleveled. Here I was battling Iris and her Lv43 Haxorus while my Pokemon were all Lv46-ish. The leveling in B2/W2 is better, I actually had to grind for Drayden. But they still weren't of satisfactory difficulty, at least for me, especially the Elite 4. They were all the same level as me, and so it didn't feel like I was fighting the Elite 4, it just felt like I was fighting a regular trainer. I think it would be an interesting experiment if they just made a Lv50 level cap or something for all the Gyms.

To people talking about disliking the 3-Pokemon rule (2 for the first two gyms): How do you think you would feel if you were only aloud to fight them with the same amount of Pokemon that they fight you with? Meaning, for most of the Gym Leaders, you would have to choose 3 Pokemon.

Maybe if it were optional, but that'd be a bad thing to force.

Originally Posted by Chaos Rush

I myself have been doing that with every Pokemon game since Platinum, but it doesn't help the difficulty much. There's another problem: Game Freak seems to have trouble determining the proper levels a Gym Leader should be at. In B/W, it seemed like all of the Gym Leaders were underleveled. Here I was battling Iris and her Lv43 Haxorus while my Pokemon were all Lv46-ish. The leveling in B2/W2 is better, I actually had to grind for Drayden. But they still weren't of satisfactory difficulty, at least for me, especially the Elite 4. They were all the same level as me, and so it didn't feel like I was fighting the Elite 4, it just felt like I was fighting a regular trainer. I think it would be an interesting experiment if they just made a Lv50 level cap or something for all the Gyms.

I'd say the problem has more to do with the EXP system (which makes it harder to train higher level Pokemon) and the regional design (the gyms are way too close to together). IDK what the levels should be, but I certainly wouldn't do it the way they did.

Originally Posted by LizardonX

Tabitha has really let himself go, just how many lava cookies did he eat in the last 11 years?

To people talking about disliking the 3-Pokemon rule (2 for the first two gyms): How do you think you would feel if you were only aloud to fight them with the same amount of Pokemon that they fight you with? Meaning, for most of the Gym Leaders, you would have to choose 3 Pokemon.

I don't think that would help much because I tend to only use 3 pokemon at most for any gym leader. My team is large enough that I already have several pokemon that can adequately take on that type, so limiting me to those 3 only serves to increase tension slightly as I can't use the remaining 3 to tank hits while I heal up.

If gym leaders have larger teams then I need to manage my team more carefully and really use every turn because the 3ish pokemon that can take on this gym need to defeat more than one pokemon each. The most extreme example of this comes with monotype champions, namely Lance.
2 of my pokemon, Magmortar and Heracross, were completely useless because every member of his team resists Fire/is a Flying type. Exeggutor could subdue opponents with Sleep Powder and Leech Seed but is too frail to do much beyond Gyarados and Togekiss is a bulkier version of Exeggutor. This leaves Feraligatr and Golem to defeat his 5 other pokemon almost on their own and makes for a very difficult battle.

With each pokemon you add to the gym leader's team you increase the amount of measures a player has to take to support and preserve the pool of pokemon that can take on that particular type.

I myself have been doing that with every Pokemon game since Platinum, but it doesn't help the difficulty much. There's another problem: Game Freak seems to have trouble determining the proper levels a Gym Leader should be at. In B/W, it seemed like all of the Gym Leaders were underleveled. Here I was battling Iris and her Lv43 Haxorus while my Pokemon were all Lv46-ish. The leveling in B2/W2 is better, I actually had to grind for Drayden. But they still weren't of satisfactory difficulty, at least for me, especially the Elite 4. They were all the same level as me, and so it didn't feel like I was fighting the Elite 4, it just felt like I was fighting a regular trainer. I think it would be an interesting experiment if they just made a Lv50 level cap or something for all the Gyms.

Well, you could try Challenge Mode. I haven't tried it yet, but it's certainly more difficult and, if you're looking for difficulty, it's the best mode you can go to.

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I don't think there's anything wrong with mixed type gyms, in fact I'd like to see gyms with more complex themes that allow for more type diversity. For instance, you could have a ruins themed gym that uses Rock, Ground, Psychic, and Ghost types, a mountain themed gym that uses Rock, Ground, Steel, Fighting, and Ice types, etc.

Agree. My thinking is that gym leaders are supposed to be better-then-average trainers, who would be able to realize the disadvantage of having one type common to all your pokemon. My idea was to have gym focused on stats- that is, a certain gym would have pokemon that focus on high special attack, and others would focus on high HP, defense, attack, sp. defense and speed. The other 2 would focus on critical hits and accuracy/evasion. I chose those 2 because their are battle items that can increase them, but they can be something else, like flinching or status conditions.

I'm looking for a Serperior named Serpedera. It'll be at lvl 98 or above. If you happen to have such a pokemon please PM me.

You have 6 Pokemon
There really isn't any difficulty when it comes to dual types. You're bound to have something that either hits them super effectively, can take hits not very effectively, or something that can just plain take neutral hits while dealing neutral hits.

It'll be interesting as a post-game content, actually. Battle ____ rules would probably be too overwhelming for the main game, but I don't see why we can't at least have the "same no. of Pokemon" rule. The anime emphasizes it all the time, and it seems like a fairer system to me.

Originally Posted by Chaos Rush

I myself have been doing that with every Pokemon game since Platinum, but it doesn't help the difficulty much. There's another problem: Game Freak seems to have trouble determining the proper levels a Gym Leader should be at. In B/W, it seemed like all of the Gym Leaders were underleveled. Here I was battling Iris and her Lv43 Haxorus while my Pokemon were all Lv46-ish. The leveling in B2/W2 is better, I actually had to grind for Drayden. But they still weren't of satisfactory difficulty, at least for me, especially the Elite 4. They were all the same level as me, and so it didn't feel like I was fighting the Elite 4, it just felt like I was fighting a regular trainer. I think it would be an interesting experiment if they just made a Lv50 level cap or something for all the Gyms.

Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat

I'd say the problem has more to do with the EXP system (which makes it harder to train higher level Pokemon) and the regional design (the gyms are way too close to together). IDK what the levels should be, but I certainly wouldn't do it the way they did.

I thought the the EXP system making it harder to train higher level Pokemon is in itself a good thing, and the flaw in BW (based on what Chaos Rush said) was that the gyms' level were not adjusted to be equal or slightly higher than the levels that the player's Pokemon levels are expected to saturate at as a result of the EXP system?

Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat

This makes no sense. What about mono type gyms give it a "gym-like quality"?

I don't think there's anything wrong with mixed type gyms, in fact I'd like to see gyms with more complex themes that allow for more type diversity. For instance, you could have a ruins themed gym that uses Rock, Ground, Psychic, and Ghost types, a mountain themed gym that uses Rock, Ground, Steel, Fighting, and Ice types, etc.

I do see some problems with mixed type gyms. Firstly, it's hard to have a mix of Pokemon type, considering that gym leaders have been limited to 2-4 Pokemon each, making it hard to 'mix' anything out of it. And since they often use dual type Pokemon (there isn't many pure type Pokemon for every single available type actually), I'll consider that rather 'mixed' already. Secondly the game has always catered to younger players, stating up front the typing of the gym and revealing its weakness.

The E4 should be the one having some sort of dual type mix, instead of being just an extension to the gyms' type specialty. They have more Pokemon (five is ideal), and don't really have to go for very cliche themes in order to fit the design of the gym's interior structure and puzzle.

One thing that has bugged me for quite some time now was the lack of a gym for every single type. I'm usually not concerned with this, but the badge design for BW/B2W2 is so aesthetically appealing that I just wished that there was a 'complete' set' of some sort. B2W2 taunt me further by introducing badges for two additional types. Meh.

Last edited by Hidden Power; 30th December 2012 at 12:37 PM.

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I thought the the EXP system making it harder to train higher level Pokemon is in itself a good thing, and the flaw in BW (based on what Chaos Rush said) was that the gyms' level were not adjusted to be equal or slightly higher than the levels that the player's Pokemon levels are expected to saturate at as a result of the EXP system?

It really doesn't help higher level Pokemon at all, especially if you need to grind (which happens quite often due to the bad regional design), because you're stuck with severely underleveled wild Pokemon in the surrounding areas. For example, right before Cheren, if you get Riolu, you need to train it to Lv. 15 in order for it to be viable since that's when it learns Force Palm. However, the highest level Pokemon you can fight at that point are Lv. 7, which takes forever to train. But in general, yeah, the levels are all off. Especially mid game, there's a 9 level gap across several very clustered gyms (between Castelia and Driftveil, which have too few training opportunities in that gap to warrant such a huge gap).

Originally Posted by Hidden Power

I do see some problems with mixed type gyms. Firstly, it's hard to have a mix of Pokemon type, considering that gym leaders have been limited to 2-4 Pokemon each, making it hard to 'mix' anything out of it.

They'd only really need 2 or 3 types, though, so there's plenty of room for diversity.

Originally Posted by Hidden Power

And since they often use dual type Pokemon (there isn't many pure type Pokemon for every single available type actually), I'll consider that rather 'mixed' already.

That doesn't usually have the same effect. The idea is to have gyms that you can't sweep with one Pokemon. If it's a dual type that counters its weaknesses, then fine, but simply adding dual types does nothing if it's something random.

Originally Posted by Hidden Power

Secondly the game has always catered to younger players, stating up front the typing of the gym and revealing its weakness.

They can still do that to a degree, you'd just need a more than one Pokemon for the gym. Also, it would help if they provided a way for them to view the type chart somehow, it's pretty ridiculous that you have to figure it out by trial and error.

Originally Posted by Hidden Power

The E4 should be the one having some sort of dual type mix, instead of being just an extension to the gyms' type specialty. They have more Pokemon (five is ideal), and don't really have to go for very cliche themes in order to fit the design of the gym's interior structure and puzzle.

That'd be a good compromise, but I'd still rather have them do that for gyms as well.

Originally Posted by Hidden Power

One thing that has bugged me for quite some time now was the lack of a gym for every single type. I'm usually not concerned with this, but the badge design for BW/B2W2 is so aesthetically appealing that I just wished that there was a 'complete' set' of some sort. B2W2 taunt me further by introducing badges for two additional types. Meh.

That would just be nonsensical. They don't need a monotype team for every type in every region, that's overkill.

Originally Posted by LizardonX

Tabitha has really let himself go, just how many lava cookies did he eat in the last 11 years?