I made a mistake in my reference above, if you go to YouTube pullup discovery ministries "reactions to Paris" it gives a side by side comparison to Islam and Christianity based upon historical data, not conjecture.

I've never had a problem having a dialogue with someone about God, but this isn't about God. It's about if I want to believe some random preacher trying to find facts that meet his conclusion instead reaching a conclusion from finding facts.

January 15th, 2016, 1:45 pm

Blueskies

QB Coach - Brian Callahan

Joined: September 13th, 2007, 12:43 pmPosts: 3126

Re: The War of Gog and Magog...Revisited.

Posted this on the second page, I don't think it was ever answered.

Blueskies wrote:

If the scripture is meant to be interpreted literally, why:

1) Does it refer to the nations as Gog, Magog, Gomer, etc instead of using modern names like Germany, Turkey, etc?

2) Does it say the soldiers will be on horseback and use swords and shields? Is that really what will happen? I would expect machine guns.

3) Do you think that your interpretation might be wrong, but the bible is always right. If the scripture is always right shouldn't it be relatively easy to understand and see in real life?

January 15th, 2016, 3:12 pm

Blueskies

QB Coach - Brian Callahan

Joined: September 13th, 2007, 12:43 pmPosts: 3126

Re: The War of Gog and Magog...Revisited.

Also, Matthew 7:15

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

1) Does it refer to the nations as Gog, Magog, Gomer, etc instead of using modern names like Germany, Turkey, etc?

2) Does it say the soldiers will be on horseback and use swords and shields? Is that really what will happen? I would expect machine guns.

3) Do you think that your interpretation might be wrong, but the bible is always right. If the scripture is always right shouldn't it be relatively easy to understand and see in real life?

Sorry, I must have missed it at the time.

1: They are referred to by the name that Ezekiel knew them as in his time. We can look back at what the modern nations used to be called and figure out what modern nations this references.2: Ezekiel described what he saw as best he could so that the people of his day could understand it. I am sure he was stunned, confused, and amazed at what he saw in his vision. He had no frame of reference for modern weaponry.3: The interpretation is spot on with everything I have ever been taught about this event. If it is wrong, literally, millions throughout history will be just as wrong. That said, the interpretation is most likely accurate. The scenarios that we come up with to see if it meshes with what we see at any given point in history, can, and usually is dead wrong. But, our scenarios, and I have never claimed any differently, should be taken with a grain of salt. What the bible says is what should be considered hard cold fact.

January 15th, 2016, 7:19 pm

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach - Brian Callahan

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3056Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: The War of Gog and Magog...Revisited.

Blue, I was just watching some history channel programs today, and one of the programs was called, "The New Nostradamus." In this show, they interviewed a number of different Theologians and Academics, one of which speaks to numbers of people on certain policies. They all mentioned how math could often be used to identify future events, but truthfully I wasn't tracking it that closely. That is, until they made mention that Nostradamus himself had claimed that the Mongols were seen in future events. I perked up that moment, but then went back to other things. I thought that might interest you...

1) Does it refer to the nations as Gog, Magog, Gomer, etc instead of using modern names like Germany, Turkey, etc?

2) Does it say the soldiers will be on horseback and use swords and shields? Is that really what will happen? I would expect machine guns.

3) Do you think that your interpretation might be wrong, but the bible is always right. If the scripture is always right shouldn't it be relatively easy to understand and see in real life?

One of the most devastating weapons is the Electro Magnetic Pulse, if there were to be employed, who's military would be affected the most? Modern Super powers right? Why? Because they base most of their stuff on computer sciences, micro-chips and so on. Horse's and guns don't really need hi-tech stuff. Not to mention, IF the Bible was written in the Middle East, FOR Middle Eastern Cultures, how would you translate Middle Eastern words? That was where the Greeks and Romans came in. Aramaic, and Hebrew were the early literature, and the Greek's and Roman's translated what they learned into their own language. BUT Western thinking is different than Eastern thinking. Western (Greek) is analytical, and Eastern is Concrete and tangible. (I forgot the word that was used.) Because of the difference in perspectives, it shapes how we see things in Christianity.

For example: (according to research done by Ray Vander Laan, of Holland, Mich.) If you tell two people, one Greek, one Jew, to study a frog; the Greek will remove the frog from it's environment and dissect it, telling you how all the parts work and what it eats. The Jew will go to the environment, and watch the frog until it comes up with the same evidence. Thus the difference in perspective.

So your comment about literal is still based upon perspective. The Bible is a LIVING document, which means that something you read 6 mos. ago, may change as your circumstances have changed, and that which you read may mean something else to you. Several Christians I know are aware of this, and have heard this term.

The Bible is also unique to the reader, in that what you read and what I read may impact us differently. I can tell you from personal experience that there have been SEVERAL times that the Word has jumped off the page, when I was reading it through a particular stage in my life. It's quite amazing really, but I don't expect you'll accept this as an answer.

Rao: I'm not sure what else you would need sir. Many, MANY, times I've been asked to give graphs, links, statistics, and "evidence" and here is a "random preacher" giving you all of that, based upon several years of study, and yet it's not good enough. Could it be that it is easier to disagree with someone who produces the evidence requested, than it is to actually question the beliefs we've built our lives around?

I know my God is real, I have personal evidence I can share with you, from SEVERAL interactions with Him, but the evidence isn't quantifiable by human or physical standards, and so you'd more than likely refute that too. It's okay, I understand that perspective, and completely understand the difficulty in the paradigm shift of thinking. Time will tell if the evidence presented is true, it always does. Till then we can sit back and wait, but like Billy said, pay attention to the times, because WHEN you see it again at a later date, I hope and pray your mind is brought back to these conversations, and you'll make the adjustment. Have a blessed day y'all.

_________________Acts 4:13, 1 Cor. 2:1-5, Rom. 12:1-2

January 17th, 2016, 12:02 am

Blueskies

QB Coach - Brian Callahan

Joined: September 13th, 2007, 12:43 pmPosts: 3126

Re: The War of Gog and Magog...Revisited.

Here are some of my favorite bible verses. They really speak to me:

Psalm 137:9 "Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks"

Timothy 2:12 "I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet"

Peter 2:18 "Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also those who are harsh"

Ezekiel 23:20 "There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses"

Rao: I'm not sure what else you would need sir. Many, MANY, times I've been asked to give graphs, links, statistics, and "evidence" and here is a "random preacher" giving you all of that, based upon several years of study, and yet it's not good enough. Could it be that it is easier to disagree with someone who produces the evidence requested, than it is to actually question the beliefs we've built our lives around?

What evidence? The so called 8 signs in the beginning of the video were nothing. The first one he mentions, Comet ISON was not bright and broke apart near the sun. Nothing happened on the blood moons and there wasn't another financial crisis on the 7th anniversary since the last crisis.

January 17th, 2016, 1:41 pm

WarEr4Christ

QB Coach - Brian Callahan

Joined: October 26th, 2005, 11:48 pmPosts: 3056Location: Elkhart, In.

Re: The War of Gog and Magog...Revisited.

I'm glad you're not cherry picking, not to mention taking things out of context. I'll respond when I have more time, because your "favorite" verses that you've hand picked to back your perspective, definitely need addressing... Not that you'll listen to the response, but I've got to set the record straight on your hand picked use of scripture.

_________________Acts 4:13, 1 Cor. 2:1-5, Rom. 12:1-2

January 18th, 2016, 12:22 am

Blueskies

QB Coach - Brian Callahan

Joined: September 13th, 2007, 12:43 pmPosts: 3126

Re: The War of Gog and Magog...Revisited.

You can dance around it and say, "well, in the original Greek, this word could mean this" or "well, it was a parable" or "god is not actually endorsing killing children, although it's included for the sake of the story"

Maybe that's true. Ultimately, you can twist any text to mean just about anything if you're willing.

But if that's the case, then what's the point? Some of these verses I've cited have formed the backbone of many cultural arguments. For example, Timothy 2:12 is a big reason why women can't be priests or pastors in many churches. Peter 2:18 was used to defend the institution of slavery in the 1800s.

If I'm alive in 50 years, and Christianity is still around (likely), I'm sure Christians will say things like, "well Leviticus 20:13 doesn't actually mean what it says, really if you look at the context blah blah blah" even though right now, I'm sure you're totally fine taking it at face value.

These books were written by sheep herders thousands of years ago. The only way they've survived has been people's willingness to reinterpret and rethink what they actually mean. The one thing I like about literal fundamentalists is that they're consistent.

Rao: I'm not sure what else you would need sir. Many, MANY, times I've been asked to give graphs, links, statistics, and "evidence" and here is a "random preacher" giving you all of that, based upon several years of study, and yet it's not good enough. Could it be that it is easier to disagree with someone who produces the evidence requested, than it is to actually question the beliefs we've built our lives around?

What evidence? The so called 8 signs in the beginning of the video were nothing. The first one he mentions, Comet ISON was not bright and broke apart near the sun. Nothing happened on the blood moons and there wasn't another financial crisis on the 7th anniversary since the last crisis.

You can dance around it and say, "well, in the original Greek, this word could mean this" or "well, it was a parable" or "god is not actually endorsing killing children, although it's included for the sake of the story"

Maybe that's true. Ultimately, you can twist any text to mean just about anything if you're willing.

But if that's the case, then what's the point? Some of these verses I've cited have formed the backbone of many cultural arguments. For example, Timothy 2:12 is a big reason why women can't be priests or pastors in many churches. Peter 2:18 was used to defend the institution of slavery in the 1800s.

If I'm alive in 50 years, and Christianity is still around (likely), I'm sure Christians will say things like, "well Leviticus 20:13 doesn't actually mean what it says, really if you look at the context blah blah blah" even though right now, I'm sure you're totally fine taking it at face value.

These books were written by sheep herders thousands of years ago. The only way they've survived has been people's willingness to reinterpret and rethink what they actually mean. The one thing I like about literal fundamentalists is that they're consistent.

Blue, there's not going to be any dancing here, but you do need some "training" in how you read your Scripture. For example, if you and I were to get into a discussion about Schroedinger's Cat, and I immediately began to tell you what I didn't like about his perspective. Unless I knew what I talking about, my words would betray my ignorance. I'm not name calling, but only trying to show you an illustration.

In Timothy, who is speaking? The Apostle Paul is speaking, AND he is stating HIS preference. Did GOD say, I don't allow women to teach? Would you like to know that in China, the women are predominantly the Pastors because the men have mostly gone in search of the dollar? God will use whomever is willing to follow him to conduct his business.

So let me get this straight, in Peter 2:18 you are using the fact that humanity has used Scripture to justify it's actions, as a basis for your belief platform? Humanity is fallen, fallible, and subject to sin. Our core nature is sin oriented, and from the 1st sin till now we've pursued and justified our actions by "cherry picking" Scripture to meet our lifestyles. Peter was clearly speaking to the culture of his day, in which slavery was an accepted practice. He was also teaching that submission to your master was an example by which you represent your submission to your Lord. Anyone can submit to a just and easy going boss, but what about the tyrant?

These books were indeed written by sheep herders, and a doctor, and a priest, and fishermen, and so on. 1600 years, from 4 different continents, and over 40 different authors. Some were stories from their time spent personally with Jesus and what they saw and did, others from their own personal ministries under the direction of the Holy Spirit.

Since you opened the ball with Leviticus 20:13, let's take a look at Romans 1:18-32, "18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

You've quoted Old Testament (known as the time of the law) which many non-believers use as their basis for argument because of the restrictive nature of the Law. But when Jesus was born, and started his ministry, He replaced the law, and after his death on the Cross, the Church Age started. The Church Age is about to wrap up, and the Age of Judgment is about to begin. I can't say when, and truthfully, I'm not concerning myself with the WHEN, I'm trying to rescue as many of my friends as possible. Truth be told, it is not I who actually saves anyone, but I will be the "pen in the hands of the Author" to minister as directed. Don't worry Blue, there's an old sniper saying, "You can run, but you'll die tired." In this situation, you can fight as much as you wish, but if it's meant for you to know Him as Savior, you will; it's just a matter of time. I'm not going to beat you with Scripture, nor try to match wits with you. You appear to be firmly planted in your ignorance of the use of Scripture, and pride, but the Lord knows EXACTLY how much effort is needed to crack the toughest nut.

Actually, it is prayers that are "helpless". I can prove they have zero effect if you like through various studies or through a ton of statistics but proof means nothing to you. Every believer I know swears they do have an impact (I'm sure you would try to make individual cases where they also made an impact) - funny thing is if that was true it would have a statistical impact in the world which simply isn't the case.

I originally, posted the above post roughly about a year and a half ago. Since then, so many things have happened around the world that just keeps pointing toward this becoming a reality very soon.

Buckle your seat belts. The world is about to go on a bumpy ride real soon.

Soon? This thread was originally started in 2011, it is now 2016. We can revisit in 10, 20 or 50 years. I don't think Christians understand the word "soon". I mean Jesus was to return "soon", this meant within the lifetime of his followers back then. It has been redefined for 2,000 years now and every new generation is sure it will happen when they are alive and the tradition continues and they continue to all be wrong.

Why? Only two possible answers - I'll let you try to figure these out but I'm sure you will ignore facts once again.

I'm very encouraged by the significant swing away from belief that has occurred the last 5-10 years. It is gathering great steam and when you look at young adults it is plummeting.

Looking at millennials there is a 15 point drop between 2007 and 2012, that is huge. You can see a slight drop with each successive generation before them with Gen X below Boomers below Silent. The children of millennials will be even stronger critical thinkers and belief systems will crumble further and move to the fringes of society where it belongs. Imagine taking belief systems out of the "reasons" for man to go to war (like Christians against Muslims). We can then start valuing human life above man create gods creating false labels and pitting us against one another - there is hope afterall and that is something to "pray" for...

Actually, it is prayers that are "helpless". I can prove they have zero effect if you like through various studies or through a ton of statistics but proof means nothing to you. Every believer I know swears they do have an impact (I'm sure you would try to make individual cases where they also made an impact) - funny thing is if that was true it would have a statistical impact in the world which simply isn't the case.

I originally, posted the above post roughly about a year and a half ago. Since then, so many things have happened around the world that just keeps pointing toward this becoming a reality very soon.

Buckle your seat belts. The world is about to go on a bumpy ride real soon.

Soon? This thread was originally started in 2011, it is now 2016. We can revisit in 10, 20 or 50 years. I don't think Christians understand the word "soon". I mean Jesus was to return "soon", this meant within the lifetime of his followers back then. It has been redefined for 2,000 years now and every new generation is sure it will happen when they are alive and the tradition continues and they continue to all be wrong.

Why? Only two possible answers - I'll let you try to figure these out but I'm sure you will ignore facts once again.

I'm very encouraged by the significant swing away from belief that has occurred the last 5-10 years. It is gathering great steam and when you look at young adults it is plummeting.

Looking at millennials there is a 15 point drop between 2007 and 2012, that is huge. You can see a slight drop with each successive generation before them with Gen X below Boomers below Silent. The children of millennials will be even stronger critical thinkers and belief systems will crumble further and move to the fringes of society where it belongs. Imagine taking belief systems out of the "reasons" for man to go to war (like Christians against Muslims). We can then start valuing human life above man create gods creating false labels and pitting us against one another - there is hope afterall and that is something to "pray" for...

JESUS said he would return soon. He was able to say soon in a relative sense. When you measure soon against eternity, even 10,000 years is relatively soon.

But, what we have to compare soon against is our life times. So, even 1 year isn't considered soon.

But, there is a measuring stick that recent generations have that all previous generations did not have.

JESUS said that Israel would be destroyed and Jews would be dispersed across the world. And that he would not return until Israel was a nation under it's own authority again. ( Parable of the fig tree). This happened on May 28, 1948 when Great Britain recognized Israel as a sovereign nation.

JESUS also said, "When I return, will I find any faith in all the Earth"? So, your chart fits right in.

There is also another prophecy. The River Euphrates will dry up to prepare the way for the kings of the East. Guess which river is drying up at an alarming rate right now?

The book of the Revelation says that mankind will have to take the mark of the beast or have their heads chopped off. I am sure you have seen the pictures/videos of Muslims chopping of the heads of people who refuse to convert.

The world's economy is on the brink of utter catastrophe. Obama is feverishly importing his Muslim buddies into America as fast as he can so he can start a Muslim Holy War on American soil. BEFORE the elections in November. America will be embroiled in Civil War while the rest of the world collapses in economic ruin. Before everything is lost, Gog and Magog will have their day. And then AntiChrist will show up to " save the day". 2016 appears to be the year it all kicks off. More than anytime before now. This year looks to be the beginning of the end.

Unless you live under a rock, even you have to see several Biblical prophesies coming together.