Question about the Doeren timeline.

I'll judge him based on what I see. I don't think it is fair to truly judge him on win-loss records until year 3, or maybe 4. It takes time to get players in place, and he's taking over in a rebuilding year. This would have been a tough year for TOB. So I expect it will not be a great first year for Doeren, either, based on our returning player personnel. The well isn't completely empty, but we have a huge question mark at the most important position on the field -- QB.

I didn't think it was fair to judge TOB in his first three years, and I think the same way about Doeren. It will be fair to judge him on recruiting I suppose. If he's only bringing in 2-star players, with the occasional 3-star, then Houston, we might have a problem.

— Posted by TruthBKnown Banned Again01

That is completely fair. Notice that I even placed my own numbers behind terms like "close losses". Things could change between now and the beginning of the season too. Good assistants, maybe some serious 5 star level athlete like Q. Davis was for us this year or Diggs was for Maryland. Never know.You can still get an idea of how hard the team plays and how well coached they may or may not be even without great talent.

— Posted by hovis

I think you should be confident in the direction of the NCSU program. O'Brien certainly accomplished some good things in his tenure at State but he was let go because Yow felt that the direction of the program was not in line with her lofty goals.

That in itself is a great thing.

Anytime your athletic department is going for doing and spending what it takes to succeed that is all you can ask. How do I know? I watched us settle for Torbush. It is better to have tried and failed than to have given up before the effort.

Let's be clear. State is not a rebuilding job. It's a program that needs a shot in the arm to get over the hump. They have gone bowling for several years in a row. What Mike MacIntyre at Colorado is facing is a rebuilding job. Same with the California and Purdue jobs. Maybe they will hit a bump in the road as they change systems. There is a chance that the perceived lack of talent is exposed when not being used the way TOB would use it. But, maybe the new staff gets more out them.In no way would I concede this to be a rebuilding year. But rather a move to push the program to the next level. If they take a step back for a year or two while the new staff accumulates their desired personnel then so be it. State is on firm footing in almost every aspect that matters (financially, fan support, facilities, fertile local recruiting, and a roster full of guys that have gone to bowls every year). Nope, not rebuilding. Just making a push.

— Posted by Metta World Biff

We have no proven QB.

This is a rebuilding year.

It's not a trainwreck. But it's a rebuilding year. But the possibility is there that we do have enough left in the cupboard to have a decent year. We just can't plan on that for sure. New coach, new system, somewhat depleted lineup... it's a rebuilding year.

— Posted by TruthBKnown Banned Again01

Excuses....excuses....excuses. Everybody wanted production out of the gste with Fedora and he provided it. As usual state kollege fans will brag on their future while setting up excuses for their future. Pitiful and sad to be a state kollege fan. And TBK is a dingy! Tries to sound wise but knows jack squat!

— Posted by My Name is Harr

In fairness, I would not have been too surprised if Fedora had lost one or two more games than he did. He did a very good job no matter what anyone says otherwise. NC State is going forward with a few less cards in the deck though.

— Posted by hovis

No, Fedora did a great job, being his first year. The kids bought into him, his style. Kids will give their all and more if they like and respect you. Fedora earned that. Y'alls future looks really good. I also like where State is headed. Should be some real barn-burners in the future around the Triangle, even if it's not up to SEC quality.

Hokie, we may just have a decent QB in Manny Stocker next year. The last time he got significant playing time, he ran the ball VERY well. Now if he can THROW the ball, too, he'll be a good weapon for us. He just hasn't gotten many opportunities to throw the ball. Usually, when he comes in, we just trying to kill the clock. So he either hands it off or runs it, himself. Seems like he did throw a pretty pass in that last game, too.

I'm not writing State off next year. I'm not saying we're going to be good, either. I think we're an unknown commodity next year. New players at key positions, new coaches, etc. We won't know until we know.

— Posted by TruthBKnown Banned Again01

Wisconsin will be glad to hear that. You guys go ahead and warm him uo then send him over there to compete for the Heisman.

— Posted by Pack pride lead investigator

Sorry pansy, But Stocker doesn't play baseball, so there's no threat of an RW V.2.

Hokie, we may just have a decent QB in Manny Stocker next year. The last time he got significant playing time, he ran the ball VERY well. Now if he can THROW the ball, too, he'll be a good weapon for us. He just hasn't gotten many opportunities to throw the ball. Usually, when he comes in, we just trying to kill the clock. So he either hands it off or runs it, himself. Seems like he did throw a pretty pass in that last game, too.

I'm not writing State off next year. I'm not saying we're going to be good, either. I think we're an unknown commodity next year. New players at key positions, new coaches, etc. We won't know until we know.

— Posted by TruthBKnown Banned Again01

Wisconsin will be glad to hear that. You guys go ahead and warm him uo then send him over there to compete for the Heisman.

I think too much credit has and is being given to Glennon. He is NOT a Philip Rivers nor a Matty Ice. I saw all three of them at CF. Glennon has not shown me that he is a winner and I do not think he will make it as a starting pro. Unfortunately, TOB bet his job on Glennon and lost. If that is all that has to be replaced, I think we should be at least as well off or better next year. Do like Maryland, find some defensive back who played QB in high school.

— Posted by jmcdow2792

NFL analysts disagree with you. Good chance he'll be the first QB drafted. Glennon is a winner. He just didn't have enough help in that regard. Can't do it alone (ask Rivers about that).

When Glennon gets to workout for the pro scouts, I believe he's going to shine. He's got a rocket for an arm, and puts the ball where he needs to. We had a LOT of dropped passes this year. If we had cut our drops in half against Carolina, we win that game by two TDs. NFL receivers won't drop them the way our college receivers did.

— Posted by TruthBKnown Banned Again01

Rivers has "it". RW has "it". Matt Ryan has "it". I haven't seen "it" with Glennon. We will find out in the pros.

— Posted by jmcdow2792

Get ready to get blasted - however you are absolutely correct - Glennon is sporadic at best - making some really nice throws - but then coming back and missing wide open wr's - against weak secondarys like UNC he was Unitas - better teams shut him down- was it his OL ? Lack of RBs ?Lack of Mobility? - great college QBs overcome all of those

I think too much credit has and is being given to Glennon. He is NOT a Philip Rivers nor a Matty Ice. I saw all three of them at CF. Glennon has not shown me that he is a winner and I do not think he will make it as a starting pro. Unfortunately, TOB bet his job on Glennon and lost. If that is all that has to be replaced, I think we should be at least as well off or better next year. Do like Maryland, find some defensive back who played QB in high school.

— Posted by jmcdow2792

NFL analysts disagree with you. Good chance he'll be the first QB drafted. Glennon is a winner. He just didn't have enough help in that regard. Can't do it alone (ask Rivers about that).

When Glennon gets to workout for the pro scouts, I believe he's going to shine. He's got a rocket for an arm, and puts the ball where he needs to. We had a LOT of dropped passes this year. If we had cut our drops in half against Carolina, we win that game by two TDs. NFL receivers won't drop them the way our college receivers did.

— Posted by TruthBKnown Banned Again01

Rivers has &quot;it&quot;. RW has &quot;it&quot;. Matt Ryan has &quot;it&quot;. I haven't seen &quot;it&quot; with Glennon. We will find out in the pros.

Let's be clear. State is not a rebuilding job. It's a program that needs a shot in the arm to get over the hump. They have gone bowling for several years in a row. What Mike MacIntyre at Colorado is facing is a rebuilding job. Same with the California and Purdue jobs. Maybe they will hit a bump in the road as they change systems. There is a chance that the perceived lack of talent is exposed when not being used the way TOB would use it. But, maybe the new staff gets more out them.In no way would I concede this to be a rebuilding year. But rather a move to push the program to the next level. If they take a step back for a year or two while the new staff accumulates their desired personnel then so be it. State is on firm footing in almost every aspect that matters (financially, fan support, facilities, fertile local recruiting, and a roster full of guys that have gone to bowls every year). Nope, not rebuilding. Just making a push.

— Posted by Metta World Biff

We have no proven QB.

This is a rebuilding year.

It's not a trainwreck. But it's a rebuilding year. But the possibility is there that we do have enough left in the cupboard to have a decent year. We just can't plan on that for sure. New coach, new system, somewhat depleted lineup... it's a rebuilding year.

— Posted by TruthBKnown Banned Again01

Excuses....excuses....excuses. Everybody wanted production out of the gste with Fedora and he provided it. As usual state kollege fans will brag on their future while setting up excuses for their future. Pitiful and sad to be a state kollege fan. And TBK is a dingy! Tries to sound wise but knows jack squat!

— Posted by My Name is Harr

In fairness, I would not have been too surprised if Fedora had lost one or two more games than he did. He did a very good job no matter what anyone says otherwise. NC State is going forward with a few less cards in the deck though.

Let's be clear. State is not a rebuilding job. It's a program that needs a shot in the arm to get over the hump. They have gone bowling for several years in a row. What Mike MacIntyre at Colorado is facing is a rebuilding job. Same with the California and Purdue jobs. Maybe they will hit a bump in the road as they change systems. There is a chance that the perceived lack of talent is exposed when not being used the way TOB would use it. But, maybe the new staff gets more out them.In no way would I concede this to be a rebuilding year. But rather a move to push the program to the next level. If they take a step back for a year or two while the new staff accumulates their desired personnel then so be it. State is on firm footing in almost every aspect that matters (financially, fan support, facilities, fertile local recruiting, and a roster full of guys that have gone to bowls every year). Nope, not rebuilding. Just making a push.

— Posted by Metta World Biff

We have no proven QB.

This is a rebuilding year.

It's not a trainwreck. But it's a rebuilding year. But the possibility is there that we do have enough left in the cupboard to have a decent year. We just can't plan on that for sure. New coach, new system, somewhat depleted lineup... it's a rebuilding year.

— Posted by TruthBKnown Banned Again01

Excuses....excuses....excuses. Everybody wanted production out of the gste with Fedora and he provided it. As usual state kollege fans will brag on their future while setting up excuses for their future. Pitiful and sad to be a state kollege fan. And TBK is a dingy! Tries to sound wise but knows jack squat!

I think too much credit has and is being given to Glennon. He is NOT a Philip Rivers nor a Matty Ice. I saw all three of them at CF. Glennon has not shown me that he is a winner and I do not think he will make it as a starting pro. Unfortunately, TOB bet his job on Glennon and lost. If that is all that has to be replaced, I think we should be at least as well off or better next year. Do like Maryland, find some defensive back who played QB in high school.

— Posted by jmcdow2792

NFL analysts disagree with you. Good chance he'll be the first QB drafted. Glennon is a winner. He just didn't have enough help in that regard. Can't do it alone (ask Rivers about that).

When Glennon gets to workout for the pro scouts, I believe he's going to shine. He's got a rocket for an arm, and puts the ball where he needs to. We had a LOT of dropped passes this year. If we had cut our drops in half against Carolina, we win that game by two TDs. NFL receivers won't drop them the way our college receivers did.

Let's be clear. State is not a rebuilding job. It's a program that needs a shot in the arm to get over the hump. They have gone bowling for several years in a row. What Mike MacIntyre at Colorado is facing is a rebuilding job. Same with the California and Purdue jobs. Maybe they will hit a bump in the road as they change systems. There is a chance that the perceived lack of talent is exposed when not being used the way TOB would use it. But, maybe the new staff gets more out them.In no way would I concede this to be a rebuilding year. But rather a move to push the program to the next level. If they take a step back for a year or two while the new staff accumulates their desired personnel then so be it. State is on firm footing in almost every aspect that matters (financially, fan support, facilities, fertile local recruiting, and a roster full of guys that have gone to bowls every year). Nope, not rebuilding. Just making a push.

— Posted by Metta World Biff

We have no proven QB.

This is a rebuilding year.

It's not a trainwreck. But it's a rebuilding year. But the possibility is there that we do have enough left in the cupboard to have a decent year. We just can't plan on that for sure. New coach, new system, somewhat depleted lineup... it's a rebuilding year.

— Posted by TruthBKnown Banned Again01

I am going to side with TBK here. It is a rebuilding year. Forget Glennon and Amerson. Wolff and most of the experienced d line. Just about the whole o line. The lines are where games are won and lost. Great qbs cannot succeed if they get hurried out if the pocket often. It will take the people who fill these positions a while to get acclimated, even if they are talented. It is rare for a player to excel in their first year. These players will not only be new starters, they will be learning to do new things in the new system also. To say it is not a rebuilding year is...uh....&quot;optimistic.&quot;

I think too much credit has and is being given to Glennon. He is NOT a Philip Rivers nor a Matty Ice. I saw all three of them at CF. Glennon has not shown me that he is a winner and I do not think he will make it as a starting pro. Unfortunately, TOB bet his job on Glennon and lost. If that is all that has to be replaced, I think we should be at least as well off or better next year. Do like Maryland, find some defensive back who played QB in high school.

Let's be clear. State is not a rebuilding job. It's a program that needs a shot in the arm to get over the hump. They have gone bowling for several years in a row. What Mike MacIntyre at Colorado is facing is a rebuilding job. Same with the California and Purdue jobs. Maybe they will hit a bump in the road as they change systems. There is a chance that the perceived lack of talent is exposed when not being used the way TOB would use it. But, maybe the new staff gets more out them.In no way would I concede this to be a rebuilding year. But rather a move to push the program to the next level. If they take a step back for a year or two while the new staff accumulates their desired personnel then so be it. State is on firm footing in almost every aspect that matters (financially, fan support, facilities, fertile local recruiting, and a roster full of guys that have gone to bowls every year). Nope, not rebuilding. Just making a push.

— Posted by Metta World Biff

We have no proven QB.

This is a rebuilding year.

It's not a trainwreck. But it's a rebuilding year. But the possibility is there that we do have enough left in the cupboard to have a decent year. We just can't plan on that for sure. New coach, new system, somewhat depleted lineup... it's a rebuilding year.

Let's be clear. State is not a rebuilding job. It's a program that needs a shot in the arm to get over the hump. They have gone bowling for several years in a row. What Mike MacIntyre at Colorado is facing is a rebuilding job. Same with the California and Purdue jobs. Maybe they will hit a bump in the road as they change systems. There is a chance that the perceived lack of talent is exposed when not being used the way TOB would use it. But, maybe the new staff gets more out them.In no way would I concede this to be a rebuilding year. But rather a move to push the program to the next level. If they take a step back for a year or two while the new staff accumulates their desired personnel then so be it. State is on firm footing in almost every aspect that matters (financially, fan support, facilities, fertile local recruiting, and a roster full of guys that have gone to bowls every year). Nope, not rebuilding. Just making a push.

I think State can win 5 games next year and at least 6 games after that. No wallnut we will not howl if he doesn't. I think the new young blood will be enough to jump start the pack in the right direction. If you ever played a sport when you were young think about who and how they motivated you.

State kollege fans already predicting at least 3 years of losses for football. But their new coach is soo wonderful. A shame they have to already start the excuses and they have not even finished this year. Fedora came out with a super 1st year and we expect a better 2nd. Soon they will talk about the rebuilding for next years BB team. State kollege....where excuses are made and mediocrity tolerated! The submarine kollege of the state!

Sure we had average talent this year. Yes, Glennon is gone. But, other teams won with QBs with less arm talent. Those teams won with a less talented QB due to motivated performance. I don't think talent was the only problem. Every year there have been unexplained losses and apparent motivation lapses. This is what the coaching change is intended to correct. I don't see why a dip in the record should be expected. Better is what this change was all about.

On paper State doesn't look good next year - but TBK is right you have to play the games - This year State looked very good on paper only to have another mediocre year.

However TOB did have three winning seasons in a row - a couple of losing seasons just won't sit well in Raleigh

— Posted by SportznutV2.0

Despite all the hype, I didn't think State looked all that good starting this year. There were a lot of question marks, and the answers to those questions proved to be poor. IMO, TOB got about all he could out of the players he had to work with. He made some rosy statements to build up his team's confidence, and those statements came back to bite him in the rear.

The problem wasn't the coaching, it was the talent. Just like I think last year's squad wasn't as talented as they were hyped, I'm betting next year's guys aren't as weak as some would claim. But they are scary thin at QB, and if Stocker goes down 5 wins may start to sound like a miracle.

Yow's no dummy, and she has enough sense not to put too much emphasis on W's in the next year or two. She may be more afraid that State will win 8 games, beating everybody's expectations and putting Doeren back in the coaching carousel sooner than expected.

— Posted by Ken D.

I agree with everything you stated until the last paragraph. She's not afraid if he wins 8 games...if he did win 8 in his 2nd season it would make her look real smart in my opinion. She signed him for 1.8 million. It will cost her if she wants to move on. If they have losing seasons and no solid recruits then it make her hire even worse.

Gott came out of the booth, only because Yow kew him back in the day. He wasn't even close to a big name in coaching. He won at Bama. Nothing more than getting them into the tourney. It's not all that difficult when you can recruit. He did it at Bama. And, Bobby Lutz it doing it for him right now. NC State was ranked at the 6th spot. Lucky as heck to be 25th. Yow knows that she has to win in basketball this season, and the next. Then she can focus on football for 3 years. I'm a realist.

On paper State doesn't look good next year - but TBK is right you have to play the games - This year State looked very good on paper only to have another mediocre year.

However TOB did have three winning seasons in a row - a couple of losing seasons just won't sit well in Raleigh

— Posted by SportznutV2.0

Despite all the hype, I didn't think State looked all that good starting this year. There were a lot of question marks, and the answers to those questions proved to be poor. IMO, TOB got about all he could out of the players he had to work with. He made some rosy statements to build up his team's confidence, and those statements came back to bite him in the rear.

The problem wasn't the coaching, it was the talent. Just like I think last year's squad wasn't as talented as they were hyped, I'm betting next year's guys aren't as weak as some would claim. But they are scary thin at QB, and if Stocker goes down 5 wins may start to sound like a miracle.

Yow's no dummy, and she has enough sense not to put too much emphasis on W's in the next year or two. She may be more afraid that State will win 8 games, beating everybody's expectations and putting Doeren back in the coaching carousel sooner than expected.

On paper State doesn't look good next year - but TBK is right you have to play the games - This year State looked very good on paper only to have another mediocre year.

However TOB did have three winning seasons in a row - a couple of losing seasons just won't sit well in Raleigh

— Posted by SportznutV2.0

Despite all the hype, I didn't think State looked all that good starting this year. There were a lot of question marks, and the answers to those questions proved to be poor. IMO, TOB got about all he could out of the players he had to work with. He made some rosy statements to build up his team's confidence, and those statements came back to bite him in the rear.

The problem wasn't the coaching, it was the talent. Just like I think last year's squad wasn't as talented as they were hyped, I'm betting next year's guys aren't as weak as some would claim. But they are scary thin at QB, and if Stocker goes down 5 wins may start to sound like a miracle.

Yow's no dummy, and she has enough sense not to put too much emphasis on W's in the next year or two. She may be more afraid that State will win 8 games, beating everybody's expectations and putting Doeren back in the coaching carousel sooner than expected.

Doeren better be close in his losses. Two years to see progress and the 3rd year could seal his fate. I wrote even before he got the job that Yow better make this one right, or she would lose her high paying job as AD. I'm sure not many remember this one. I really think it will take him 3 years to improve. If he can do a better job in recruiting vs TOB he should be able to hang for 3 years. I don't think it would all that hard to improve vs TOB in recruiting.

I think State can win 5 games next year and at least 6 games after that. No wallnut we will not howl if he doesn't. I think the new young blood will be enough to jump start the pack in the right direction. If you ever played a sport when you were young think about who and how they motivated you.

On paper State doesn't look good next year - but TBK is right you have to play the games - This year State looked very good on paper only to have another mediocre year.

However TOB did have three winning seasons in a row - a couple of losing seasons just won't sit well in Raleigh

— Posted by SportznutV2.0

With a new coach, I think we could tolerate a couple of losing seasons. Just a couple, though. Meaning TWO. Three losing seasons, and I think Doeren would be on the hotseat to make more progress. Actually, knowing Debbie, he might be gone after two.

— Posted by TruthBKnown Banned Again01

And that would just make recruiting even harder for the next coach. Unlike basketball, football players will be there at least 3 years before they can declare for the draft. Many players would be hesitant to attend a school if there was a good possibility that the coaching staff would be gone in a year or two.

On paper State doesn't look good next year - but TBK is right you have to play the games - This year State looked very good on paper only to have another mediocre year.

However TOB did have three winning seasons in a row - a couple of losing seasons just won't sit well in Raleigh

— Posted by SportznutV2.0

With a new coach, I think we could tolerate a couple of losing seasons. Just a couple, though. Meaning TWO. Three losing seasons, and I think Doeren would be on the hotseat to make more progress. Actually, knowing Debbie, he might be gone after two.

Hokie, we may just have a decent QB in Manny Stocker next year. The last time he got significant playing time, he ran the ball VERY well. Now if he can THROW the ball, too, he'll be a good weapon for us. He just hasn't gotten many opportunities to throw the ball. Usually, when he comes in, we just trying to kill the clock. So he either hands it off or runs it, himself. Seems like he did throw a pretty pass in that last game, too.

I'm not writing State off next year. I'm not saying we're going to be good, either. I think we're an unknown commodity next year. New players at key positions, new coaches, etc. We won't know until we know.

— Posted by TruthBKnown Banned Again01

I believe that Stocker could be a good qb and still struggle some. Usually gets at least one year to learn a new system often 2 and sometimes 3 years through redshirt. They also spend this time learning the new receivers that will play with them when the others graduate. Even in these circumstances greatness is not expected of the first time starting year.

If he does not look spectacular a lot of people will say that he is not good. That is not a fair assessment if you take these facts into account.

Hokie, we may just have a decent QB in Manny Stocker next year. The last time he got significant playing time, he ran the ball VERY well. Now if he can THROW the ball, too, he'll be a good weapon for us. He just hasn't gotten many opportunities to throw the ball. Usually, when he comes in, we just trying to kill the clock. So he either hands it off or runs it, himself. Seems like he did throw a pretty pass in that last game, too.

I'm not writing State off next year. I'm not saying we're going to be good, either. I think we're an unknown commodity next year. New players at key positions, new coaches, etc. We won't know until we know.

— Posted by TruthBKnown Banned Again01

A solid QB will be the key. If the guy can throw and lead the offense he is in front of the game. It's a learning curve especially since he hasn't had many snaps. I did appreciate the new coach in his interview when Yow hired him. He shot straight, and he didn't say anything close to the Larry Fedora stuff. It takes time when a new staff comes in.

What I know about this past season is that Beamer, Steinspring, O'Cain, and Newsome didn't do the job. The powers are on Beamer to fire these 3 coaches. I doubt Frank has this much courage. The same ol boring offense. Logan Thomas didn't come close this year. Dismal playing. I would hope that Beamer will pull the trigger, or he will be like TOB one day. It wouldn't bother me at all.

Won't have much going till year 3. Might get lucky and win 4-5 next year and 6-7 in year 2, but not seeing it much better than that with the cupboards being so bare. If he had some recruits to work with but you have to figure he will redshirt most of what is coiming in this year and next.

Hokie, we may just have a decent QB in Manny Stocker next year. The last time he got significant playing time, he ran the ball VERY well. Now if he can THROW the ball, too, he'll be a good weapon for us. He just hasn't gotten many opportunities to throw the ball. Usually, when he comes in, we just trying to kill the clock. So he either hands it off or runs it, himself. Seems like he did throw a pretty pass in that last game, too.

I'm not writing State off next year. I'm not saying we're going to be good, either. I think we're an unknown commodity next year. New players at key positions, new coaches, etc. We won't know until we know.

If we grant that the next two years could be tough for Doeren wins and loss wise, what would be acceptable to most NCSU fans for his record to be in this time that he is going to try and replace and rebuild the talent core? Everybody wants instant success, and he couldhave that too even if it is highly unlikely. Example; would 5 wins next year be considered permissible to you? Would 7 or 8 wins be a success? How about the following year?

— Posted by hovis

Based upon what State has returning next season, I wouldn't think they will win many. He is going to be bringing in a new staff, and the OC's and the DC's will more than likely have a different scheme vs TOB. I will disagree with The 1 in regard to beating UNC. That's nothing.

Yow is looking for this coach to bring an upward building progam to the point of being a consistent team in the top 25 best in the Country. I repeat a consistent team. Most coaches take at least 3 years to bring in their recruits, and become a winner. In the past, State has played some weak non-conference teams, and this padded their wins. If they win 4-6 games next season; it would be OK, I think.

I'll judge him based on what I see. I don't think it is fair to truly judge him on win-loss records until year 3, or maybe 4. It takes time to get players in place, and he's taking over in a rebuilding year. This would have been a tough year for TOB. So I expect it will not be a great first year for Doeren, either, based on our returning player personnel. The well isn't completely empty, but we have a huge question mark at the most important position on the field -- QB.

I didn't think it was fair to judge TOB in his first three years, and I think the same way about Doeren. It will be fair to judge him on recruiting I suppose. If he's only bringing in 2-star players, with the occasional 3-star, then Houston, we might have a problem.

— Posted by TruthBKnown Banned Again01

That is completely fair. Notice that I even placed my own numbers behind terms like "close losses". Things could change between now and the beginning of the season too. Good assistants, maybe some serious 5 star level athlete like Q. Davis was for us this year or Diggs was for Maryland. Never know.You can still get an idea of how hard the team plays and how well coached they may or may not be even without great talent.

— Posted by hovis

Yep, there are ways to judge his performance. It just shouldn't be based primarily on record until a little later. Now if he actually wins a lot in his first year, when we're not expected to win much, that could be a feather in his cap. It could demonstrate that he's maximizing the potential of our players. But losing games is not necessarily a strike against him.

I do think he should get rolling a little quicker than TOB did. TOB had a bigger rebuilding job. Chuck had really driven us deep into a ditch. We're not that far off the road at this point. He has some pieces to build on.

I'll judge him based on what I see. I don't think it is fair to truly judge him on win-loss records until year 3, or maybe 4. It takes time to get players in place, and he's taking over in a rebuilding year. This would have been a tough year for TOB. So I expect it will not be a great first year for Doeren, either, based on our returning player personnel. The well isn't completely empty, but we have a huge question mark at the most important position on the field -- QB.

I didn't think it was fair to judge TOB in his first three years, and I think the same way about Doeren. It will be fair to judge him on recruiting I suppose. If he's only bringing in 2-star players, with the occasional 3-star, then Houston, we might have a problem.

— Posted by TruthBKnown Banned Again01

This is true. What we have left is a bunch of pro-style players. All indications are his offense is more up-tempo and spread. I really expect us to be at or in the basement the next two seasons as players transition and new ones grow up in the system.

I'll judge him based on what I see. I don't think it is fair to truly judge him on win-loss records until year 3, or maybe 4. It takes time to get players in place, and he's taking over in a rebuilding year. This would have been a tough year for TOB. So I expect it will not be a great first year for Doeren, either, based on our returning player personnel. The well isn't completely empty, but we have a huge question mark at the most important position on the field -- QB.

I didn't think it was fair to judge TOB in his first three years, and I think the same way about Doeren. It will be fair to judge him on recruiting I suppose. If he's only bringing in 2-star players, with the occasional 3-star, then Houston, we might have a problem.

— Posted by TruthBKnown Banned Again01

That is completely fair. Notice that I even placed my own numbers behind terms like &quot;close losses&quot;. Things could change between now and the beginning of the season too. Good assistants, maybe some serious 5 star level athlete like Q. Davis was for us this year or Diggs was for Maryland. Never know.You can still get an idea of how hard the team plays and how well coached they may or may not be even without great talent.

I'll judge him based on what I see. I don't think it is fair to truly judge him on win-loss records until year 3, or maybe 4. It takes time to get players in place, and he's taking over in a rebuilding year. This would have been a tough year for TOB. So I expect it will not be a great first year for Doeren, either, based on our returning player personnel. The well isn't completely empty, but we have a huge question mark at the most important position on the field -- QB.

I didn't think it was fair to judge TOB in his first three years, and I think the same way about Doeren. It will be fair to judge him on recruiting I suppose. If he's only bringing in 2-star players, with the occasional 3-star, then Houston, we might have a problem.

Yow has already set the bar very high, Top 25 team, Alabama type recruiting.... 4 and 6 wins might be realistic but believe you me that delusional fan base in Raleigh will be howling if that happens

— Posted by SportznutV2.0

I do not think Yow meant the next two years. Even the big programs often go through hard times in rebuilding years. If some have expectations that are too high then they will not enjoy that period. Oh well. We have plenty of those fans too or have you not heard a few of the basketball fans say ridiculous stuff this year. Unreasonable expectations.

I'm willing to spot him 4 wins in the first season and 6 in the second.

— Posted by Sassie Licks Penis

I think that this may be a little low but very realistic. I know that next year Louisiana Tech, Central Michigan, and Pitt are on the schedule so far. If one FCS team or easier FBS team is added that seems to get them four wins that they could handle. If you then think that they could beat BC and maybe one more that would make a very possible six. I think six would be good, seven would be very good. Five would be fair if other games were played competitively, but four would be bad.

If we grant that the next two years could be tough for Doeren wins and loss wise, what would be acceptable to most NCSU fans for his record to be in this time that he is going to try and replace and rebuild the talent core? Everybody wants instant success, and he couldhave that too even if it is highly unlikely. Example; would 5 wins next year be considered permissible to you? Would 7 or 8 wins be a success? How about the following year?

— Posted by hovis

The only game he has to win is the UNC game. He can lose the other 11 and all will be well.

If we grant that the next two years could be tough for Doeren wins and loss wise, what would be acceptable to most NCSU fans for his record to be in this time that he is going to try and replace and rebuild the talent core? Everybody wants instant success, and he couldhave that too even if it is highly unlikely. Example; would 5 wins next year be considered permissible to you? Would 7 or 8 wins be a success? How about the following year?