Cena_mark - 2017-01-21 Fuck that. The only language fascists speak is violence, and that was a fine conversation. Spencer's tiny fascist brain was actually able to comprehend the message.
These Nazi shit bags act all tough, but then start harping on how "intolerant and violent" the left is. Fuck him, he deserves it.

Sanest Man Alive - 2017-01-21 It's more like punching the hot air out of a Neo-Nazi balloon dog and watching him deflate under the reality of his own barbaric ideals.

Nominal - 2017-01-21 The last time I heard talk like that it was my father boasting about a (most likely fake) new law proposal that would make the punishment for punching someone burning the flag a $1 fine.

"I'd smile at the cop, hand him a dollar, and slug him in the face."

Would you call that an abhorrent point of view or not?

15th - 2017-01-21 Nazis are horrible, violent authoritarians. Let's revoke their 1st Ammendment and beat the shit out of them.

BHWW - 2017-01-21 Spenser's "movement" is nothing but a bunch of Live Action Roleplayers who like to see themselves as a 'vanguard' when they aren't throwing parties with 'Roman salutes' and inviting brain-damaged pornstars as guests of honor, despite all of the angst and shrieking online they are a pretty marginal movement, like the rather dork-filled, diffuse and amorphous "Neo Reaction" or "Dark Enlightenment" which was the supposedly dangerous movement on the rise to have freakouts over a couple of seasons ago even though they were mostly huge dorks with blogs.

The amount of heavy breathing over how this is A DANGEROUS MOVEMENT THAT MUST BE STAMPED OUT BASH THE FASH is ridiculous. Especially since NAZI and FASCIST and other terms have been diluted in their willy-nilly application to anything certain people don't like.

15th - 2017-01-21 Racism is a real problem. I think actual American "Nazis" should be taken about as seriously as Satanists. But, what about all the 4 chan/Nazi meme people? What about all the high school kids with pentagram backpacks?

teethsalad - 2017-01-21 if i can't call a guy who organizes a rally where people are openly sieg-heiling a nazi, fuck off. seriously

Monkey Napoleon - 2017-01-21 I have no problem with calling this guy a Nazi (or fascist).

What I do have a problem with is what other unknown things you might consider someone a Nazi(or fascist) for, and leaving it up to you to decide what is and what isn't a Nazi(or fascist), and you thinking of yourself as the arbiter of what kind of violence you should be able to perpetrate against people who fit your subjective definition of Nazi(or fascist).

There are people active in these comments sections right now that believe the above opinion makes someone a Nazi(or fascist), or at the very least a sympathizer.

You don't have to sympathize with, like, or even think he doesn't deserve to be punched to find mob justice distasteful.

teethsalad - 2017-01-21 the problem is there's an actual definition of a nazi - an actual, concrete concept - not some floating definition which can expand and contract when it suits the alt-right - which he clearly falls under. all this talk of your definition and my definition of nazi is horrrrrrrrrseeeeeeeshiiiiiiiiiitttttttttttttt

i didn't punch the guy, but holy shit, at some point you're going to have to pick a side, guy. that's on you

bawbag - 2017-01-21 "all this talk of your definition and my definition of nazi is horrrrrrrrrseeeeeeeshiiiiiiiiiitttttttttttttt"

*****

bawbag - 2017-01-21 "I think actual American "Nazis" should be taken about as seriously as Satanists."

15th, look up the history of the GAU(German American Bund), Father Coughlin, the Khaki shirts or any of the other ways that Nazism crept in to American thinking. The parallels are quite striking, as is the response of the centre and left in denying their effect and actively shouting down the anti-nazi activists.

Shit, even Hitler himself was reported by the American press as being 'not all that bad' to 'really effective, keeps the trains running on time'.

Monkey Napoleon - 2017-01-21 You're right, there is a concrete definition of what a Nazi is. I don't trust you, random joeblow on the street, to know what it is.

I already picked a side, and it's not the side of authoritarianism.

I'd also think a homosexual would recognize the inherent danger of letting people choose which others deserve violence, justifying it by their own definitions of what is and isn't wrong that may be completely disconnected from yours, but you are pretty fucking stupid bawbag, so I'm not surprised.

jfcaron_ca - 2017-01-20 The great tragedy of fascism is that you cannot defeat it or delay it with anything other than force. You have to stoop to their level and crush them, otherwise they will crush you. A society fighting fascism doesn't have to be fascist internally (e.g. at home), but it must use a fascist element (i.e. a military) to fight. You just have to hope that in doing so, you do not become your enemy. This danger is even greater if the fight against fascism is internal to your society.

All the petitions, votes, protests, and pleas that you can muster will all have LESS of an effect on actual fascists than the above violent scene.

Bootymarch - 2017-01-21 In the broadest terms you're right but I don't know. The above violent scene will certainly not send them home with their tails between their legs. It's much more likely that it galvanizes these people into not leaving their homes without guns. And then?

jfcaron_ca - 2017-01-21 I'm not saying elbowing this guy in the face is useful (or ethical, mind you), but it has a stronger effect on him than showing him a petition with a million signatures from people who don't want fascism, or any other peaceful method of opposition.

It also has a stronger effect on other fascists who might have witnessed it or who might see the video.

The Mothership - 2017-01-21 I'll happily punch this guy in the face and go to jail for it if that helps.

Old_Zircon - 2017-01-21 jfcaron_ca
You just have to hope that in doing so, you do not become your enemy

SPOILER

John Holmes Motherfucker - 2017-01-21 I don't want to rationalize it. Punching people in the face is wrong, and Im sure that its going to be politically counter producive. But he totally desrves it, and I enjoy watching it.

Im against punching nazis in the face. But Im in favor of nazis being punched in the face.

Ive always been against the death penalty, but do you think I was outraged by a sense of injustice when John Wayne Gacy got the needle? Just because there are people who deserve to die doesn't mean that killing them is the best solution for society. It doesnt happen in a vacuum Im not using the passive voice; Im drawing a line between the means and the end.

Doc Victor - 2017-01-21 That's more honest than most would be John. It belies truths we cannot escape. Good on you.

15th - 2017-01-21 The death penalty is good analogy. State violence rubber stamped by the popular opinion. The reason to oppose it in all instances is because the chance of it being always implemented to only those that "have it coming" is 0%.

Don't let innocent people be potential casualties of your hate of horrible people. John Wayne Gacey was a real jerk, but killing 100 of his kind is not worth killing 1 person failed by the justice system. This sentiment can be applied to the protection of the 1st amnendment and denouncing rationalization political violence.

John Holmes Motherfucker - 2017-01-22 Years ago in POE-NEWS, we had a discussion that went on for several days about people who like to have sex with dogs. Some people wanted to construct a moral argument against dog fucking, based on the idea that IN a sexual relationship with humans, dogs are denied consent.

I wasn't having it, and neither were some others. No one thinks its immoral to deny dogs consent about being spayed or neutered, kept on a leash, given a flea bath, or being forced to wear fake antlers for Christmas card photos.

The real issue isn't consent. it's that, for most who do not share the taste, sexual contact with another species is gross, So people reflexively seek a moral justification for their reflexive condemnation. People who fuck dogs my be harmless. A dog who is somehow trained to fuck a woman may be thinking "I must be SUCH a good boy!." the whole time. Still, it's perfectly normal to those who only mate within their species to be disgusted by the prospect of dogfucking.

I think you should just own the feeling.of disgust. Emotional responses don't have to be moral judgements.

This is the opposite of that situation. I laughed out loud when Spencer got punched in the face, especially in the middle of a self-important discussion of the symbolism of Pepe The Frog. I don't need to think that punching people is morally defensible in order to own my emotional response. But it's not right to punch people in the face, and I don't think it's good to be seen as endorsing this action.

Based on Twitter, it appears that my favorite youtuber (some of you know who I'm talking about) was in Washington for the women's march yesterday. If she got punched in the face like this, my emotional response would be different. My moral response would be the same

Xenocide - 2017-01-21 Please take a moment to appreciate what a total wimp this guy is when he's not in a room full of his fellow Nazis. When we last saw Richard he was tossing out Hitler salutes with his fellow alt-righters, now he's sheepishly telling a supporter "OH GOLLY GEE I'M NO NAZI WHERE'D YOU GET THAT IDEA," while wearing that sort of plastic smile people use when they're doing a bad job of hiding that they're actually terrified.

Not in the video: after getting sucker punched moderately hard, Mr. Big Tough Might-Makes-Right Fascist fled the scene as soon as humanly possible.

jfcaron_ca - 2017-01-21 Unfortunately so is appeasing and doing business with them well after everyone knows how awful they are.

"IBM and the Holocaust" is a very interesting read, linking many American businesses and politicians to the Nazis, making big money even after US declared war.

Old_Zircon - 2017-01-21 CEO of IBM sending technicians to Germany to provide on site support for the IBM systems that were used to catalog the prisoners in concentration camps while his son was on active duty in the air force flying bombers over Germany.

15th - 2017-01-21 People with this mindset aren't going to be changed with a petition or a ass beating. Some people grow out of it, but violence will only make them dig in deeper. If you denounce violence, you should denounce violence.

It's not about the Nazis it's about one's own personal integrity. Getting off on someone getting hurt because you think their political ideology makes them less than human is something a Nazi might do.

Braze - 2017-01-21 In my country, white nationalists aren't allowed to speak, and notably we didn't just elect a president who coasted into power partially on the strength of racist fearmongering

15th - 2017-01-21 I'm glad to hear. I hope the political and social climate of your country never changes and the awesome power of government sanctioned censorship is wielded righteously forever and ever.

Braze - 2017-01-21 Nothing has gone wrong here yet, but if restrictions require relaxation at a later time, that's fine: I am not an idealist. We cross bridges when we reach them.

The issue is that right now, the US happens to have crossed a very unfortunate bridge, to the point that I really have to question the absence of hate speech laws in a nation with such a historically powerful white nationalist element.

Trump is shit. But, only very draconian free speech laws would have stopped his campaign. His racism was/is mostly inferred (correctly). Where does one draw the line? I'm thoroughly indoctrinated with the idea of absolute free speech, hell, I'm patriotic about it. I bet you live in a nice country, your next 4 years will probably be smoother than ours. Nice to meet you, Braze.

Or, his country has direct experience of the harm that comes from giving those who seek to destroy democracy an open platform and have agreed as a people not to repeat the mistake of allowing those who seek to undermine everyone's freedoms an unfettered soapbox from which to do so.

America enjoys the privilege of having never experienced the nazis invading, so you are very much seeing this in the abstract, defending an ideal rather than the lived, collective reality of what happened in the rest of the world, Europe in particular.

You can disagree with it, but in no way is that 'fascist' and you ought to know it.

memedumpster - 2017-01-24 Did they invade you with words? Did they actually sit back and use Dune style killing words to bomb London, or are you using their actions as an excuse to oppress peoples' speech, you know, the exact fucking way they did, with violence?

Spoiler : The Nazis never left England, you became them.

Bort - 2017-01-24 Oh horseshit meme. Legally banning Nazi talk in nations that had to suffer the Nazis once already is an abridgment of civil rights but hardly fascism. When Scotland (Scotland? England? my apologies bawbag) starts banning discussion of politics that DIDN'T lead to the Holocaust, we can reassess whether a slippery slope is at work. But Nazi philosophy as a special case hardly proves that a nation hates civil rights.

Absolutes never ever ever lead to good conclusions.

bawbag - 2017-01-24 lmao meme you need to lay off the dumb pills before your act.

BHWW - 2017-01-21 I have no use for Spencer but the number of idiots online hooting about this masked sucker-puncher and acting like they each personally beat the Wehrmacht. Lots of people spouting off about how OMG THIS GUY IS ARE HERO JUST LIKE CAPTAIN AMERICA WHO USED TO PUNCH NAZIS, RIGHT when they aren't making comparisons of current events to Harry Potter or the Hunger Games or Game of Thrones or what the FUCK ever.

One of my problems with the whole BASH THE FASH mindset is that terms like 'fascist' and 'Nazi' get slung at people without care or concern and fascist just comes to mean "people I don't like". And honestly, opportunistic, grandstanding spotlight grabbers like Spenser are bad enough but I don't think idiotic 20-something commies should be able to decide who gets to speak without fear of assault.

Nominal - 2017-01-21 Yup. Remember when progressives used to show the strength of their ideology by fighting for the right of nazis to speak?

15th - 2017-01-21 Nominal, yes. That idea was eloquently explained to me in 5th grade by a fantastic teacher. It has always stuck with me

teethsalad - 2017-01-21 yes, i will hug my enemies and respectfully ask their opinion as they call me subhuman and march me to the camps, I will wait for the cancer to metastasize before I take any action

the weimar republic did that and turned out just fucking fine didn't they

just curious, what exactly is the threshold for when we can start being mean to nazis? (and I do call people who organize rallies where they openly sieg-heil nazis, no matter how big of fucking goofballs they are) do they have to start shoving mexicans on trains first? right after they gut the first amendment? or right before they put a bullet in my head? help me out here

Xenocide - 2017-01-21 Congrats to you two on being white enough to hug it out with the Fourth Reich. The rest of us are going to keep defending ourselves, thanks.

Bort - 2017-01-21 Yeah, I don't agree with violence, but I do believe that it is a DUTY of every decent person to make guys like Richard Spencer feel unwelcome. Certainly to challenge them and give them no quarter when they're pushing bigoted crap; silence works out to tacit agreement.

We're in for a bumpy ride, and those of us who happen to have won the cultural lottery (such as straight white guys) can go one of two ways: either be active in confronting and denouncing Trumpian bigotry, or acquiesce to it. You can't be an ally while saying "sorry guys, you're on your own".

At least this guy made an effort:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__n5Bgxx-68

cognitivedissonance - 2017-01-21 The gentleman-Cicero approach is pretty much dead, along with the Republic.

bawbag - 2017-01-21 Stars for Xenocide. So much of that shit happening around here recently.

bawbag - 2017-01-21 "We're in for a bumpy ride, and those of us who happen to have won the cultural lottery (such as straight white guys) can go one of two ways: either be active in confronting and denouncing Trumpian bigotry, or acquiesce to it."

Hell, just tell them the nazis are only 'a reaction' to the HATED SCARY SJWs who're STEALING FREE SPEECH!!1 and half of them will straight up cheerlead for the nazis because being chided for hate speech is worse to them than other folk being actively threatened by the rise of neonazism.

Bort - 2017-01-21 Cena - it was never a "free speech" issue anyway. Nobody was calling for EH to be silenced; they just wanted the option to ignore him conveniently and automatically. Free speech does not mean you are guaranteed an audience.

bawbag - 2017-01-21 If it makes you feel better, I really did have to try quite hard not to respond a fair few times cena!

Cena_mark - 2017-01-21 I'm aware of that Bort, but I made it clear that it was. I'm not talking like Homer had his Constitutional rights violated or anything, but for the very fact that we have a community here, and if a large part of said community unites in ignoring another member, that's silencing them. It's shunning.

Cena_mark - 2017-01-21 I'd make a note to reply to your posts. I figured that if you couldn't read them, then I could at the very least interject myself into your conversations.

bawbag - 2017-01-21 More of a mute button, but let's not rehash the old argument.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26J0uDIGErM

:D

Bort - 2017-01-21 "Hell, just tell them the nazis are only 'a reaction' to the HATED SCARY SJWs who're STEALING FREE SPEECH!!1 and half of them will straight up cheerlead for the nazis because being chided for hate speech is worse to them than other folk being actively threatened by the rise of neonazism"

One thing many MANY minorities have noticed is, white liberals have much more in common with white conservatives than they do with minorities. Their overall experiences in this culture are more similar, and they both stand something to gain by not rocking the boat too much. And lord knows both groups are equally likely to take their ball and go home as soon as minorities stop flattering them.

When it comes to this "punch Nazi faces" vs. "defend to the death their right to say it" debate, white folks on either side have the luxury of treating it as an abstract exercise. But when there's a president who was pushed to victory by Neo-Nazis and the KKK, and whose actions seem likely to advance racist goals, and when you or your loved ones may well be on the receiving end ... well, suddenly it's a lot less abstract and more a matter of survival.

Which is something that "principled" progressives don't seem to appreciate. If they DID appreciate it, they'd be a lot less comfortable with arguments that justify letting minorities get the shaft, again.

I still don't condone physically assaulting Spencer, but every verbal form of abuse one could hurl against him would be justified. Make sure he knows for goddamn sure he's the enemy as much as his kind were in 1943.

Cena_mark - 2017-01-21 Right right, well done. You trolled me good. That was some top notch work.
Homer's been gone for like a month now. I don't know when he'll be back, as I'm not him. Maybe you should give him another chance.

bawbag - 2017-01-21 That's it exactly Bort. Those with 'skin in the game' (in every sense of the term) are the ones who are disproportionately hurt by all of it, while (mostly)whites on the left/right are all too quick to throw them under the bus either actively or passively to maintain their position of relative comfort, at the expense of the 'other'.

This is of course part of what actual leftists mean when they bring up privilege, but then the edgelords and SQWs get all het up over the idea that someone thinks 'they had it easy!' because they 'have had struggles too' 'reverse racism!1' etc etc

A conversation I'm so tired of having around here with the usual suspects.

Happened during abolition, happened during the civil rights era and the same pattern can be seen again, though this time a somewhat peaceful, equitable ending seems increasingly remote. I think the foundation of civil society is dissolving under us and the prospect of war none too far away.

On EH: I'm definitely open to considering it cena, I didn't always dislike his posting around here, I just hope he doesn't get back into his old bad habits if/when he does return.

memedumpster - 2017-01-21 Bort, your right to speak unviolenced is not an abstract concept, it is the prime force by which Hillary lost.

Also, BLM marchers chanting for dead cops is also protected, since they didn't also get gunned down for saying dumb shit.

bawbag - 2017-01-21 Meme, you're conflating individual acts of violence and state violence, these are not the same in effect or scope.

Individual acts of violence are still criminal (and should remain so) in a democracy where the acts of the state (particularly the state actual fascists want so much) are rarely treated as such.

The prime force by which Hillary lost was voters, who voted for Trump.

Made possible in large part by sly redistricting, voter ID laws, splitting the vote, bern or busters, voter suppression and a bunch of other broken shit in your electoral system, and all that before you get to the constant pundit's fallacy from fencesitting libs and libertarians, repeating ad nauseam the right's line that somehow it was 'identity politics'.

Nah.

15th - 2017-01-21 >>Congrats to you two on being white enough to hug it out with the Fourth Reich. The rest of us are going to keep defending ourselves, thanks.

Congrats to you guys for weaponizing progressive ideals. What's the point of being on "good side" if you can't inflict violence on a hated minority?

15th - 2017-01-21 >> I still don't condone physically assaulting Spencer, but every verbal form of abuse one could hurl against him would be justified. Make sure he knows for goddamn sure he's the enemy as much as his kind were in 1943.

So, we agree?

BHWW - 2017-01-21 Bawbag, do you have a mode other than being a shrieking mong, you sound like every other retarded antifa cunt out there DUR DUR DUR IF YOU CRITICZIE A "NAHZI" GETTING BEAT UP YOU MUST LOVE NAZIS AND ARE A TOTAL FASCIST YOURSELF when one of my main converns is that in the case of anti-fascists, their violence always spills over and hits non-fascists, too. Because they're universally idiots, and "easily avoiding collateral damage" and "actually caring about 'The People' they pretend to speak for" come about 600th on their priorities, and "emotional high from pulling off acts of righteous violence/or supporting others performing them" is about number 1.

It's actually possible to oppose political extremism and punching people for their views. But that requires a level of intelligence that the likes of bawbag and Bort, busily farting on about "white privilege", are sorely missing.

Nominal - 2017-01-21 You're either silent and support Nazis, OR you throw on a white hood and run out into the street sucker punching people in the face. There is literally no other choice and anything but the punch to the face makes you a Nazi who also deserves to be punched in the face.

Nominal - 2017-01-21 Holy shit, Bort. "If you're white then you have no place criticizing masked vigilantes running up and cold clocking people in the street" is one of the dumbest things I've ever read on this site, certainly the dumbest from you.

You are both on the level of that guy who sucker punched the black protestor at the Trump rally.

15th - 2017-01-21 I bet Bort is the kind of guy that says stuff like "you go, girl" while in the company of black people.

Monkey Napoleon - 2017-01-21 You guys want to pitch in on these hats I designed?

If we get 12 made up, they're only $27 each.

https://www.customink.com/designs/iokwid/hmm0-00aw-3k35

Bort - 2017-01-21 "Holy shit, Bort. "If you're white then you have no place criticizing masked vigilantes running up and cold clocking people in the street" is one of the dumbest things I've ever read on this site, certainly the dumbest from you."

Nominal - It's also nothing I've ever said. All along I have said I don't condone physically assaulting the guy -- two or three times I've said so -- but I do recommend hurling verbal abuse at him.

"I bet Bort is the kind of guy that says stuff like "you go, girl" while in the company of black people."

15th - Your hostility to even considering black perspectives is noted, yet again. I bet you're the kind of guy who says "blacks can say nigger so why can't I? White men are the REAL victims" while in the company of white people.

15th - 2017-01-21 Bort, do you remember jokes? You never fail to disappoint.

Bort - 2017-01-21 Yeah I don't think you were joking 15th. Maybe you don't think I literally say "you go girl" but you do think I'm a white guy trying to ingratiate myself with blacks, while I think you're a white guy who will usually side with throwing blacks under the bus.

15th - 2017-01-21 >>Yeah I don't think you were joking 15th. Maybe you don't think I literally say "you go girl" but you do think I'm a white guy trying to ingratiate myself with blacks.

No, it was a joke. If there was a deeper edge to it, it was about your personality, not racial integration, Jesus Christ.

>> while I think you're a white guy who will usually side with throwing blacks under the bus.

Think what you will, but that's not the case.

How did I know this conversation was eventually going to end up with me asserting that I'm not a bigot because I don't advocate violence?

Old_Zircon - 2017-01-21 bawbag
The prime force by which Hillary lost was voters, who voted for Trump.

"Made possible in large part by sly redistricting, voter ID laws, splitting the vote, bern or busters, voter suppression and a bunch of other broken shit in your electoral system"

Rodents of Unusual Size - 2017-01-23 My take on this is if you advocate violence against Neo Nazis it will make it easier for them to recruit younger white men who feel like they are somehow becoming sympathetic martyr figures. The newer generation has less and less emotional reaction to the horrors of WWII and are becoming increasingly removed from it, or knowing about what even happened during it. Thanks, US educational system!

I used to have fantasies about beating up Nazis like something out of Tarantino all throughout my childhood and young adult years before realizing that you can't fight an ideology that way. You have to fight this ideology with talking to poor white young people about their needs and talking about the reality of the Nazi movement and how it won't help them, and civilly try and dissuade them from being in that movement. You can't go into a cult like Scientology for instance, and just punch someone in the face and say "you are free to believe the truth now!" because they will just think that proves Scientology is good and you are evil.

It sucks but this event will probably only help their cause and bring more people to them. They will find a way to use it as a selling point.

bawbag - 2017-01-23 'Used to have fantasies of beating up nazis' then you realised you're a coward piece of quisling-shit and started just agreeing with them instead because god knows you need -someone- to validate you in this place, so why not the actual nazis!?

Drink bleach.

bawbag - 2017-01-23 "before realizing that you can't fight an ideology that way"

Did you ever hear of WWII? What the fuck did you think we did to nazis back then and their shitcunt ideology?

I mean I get that you're basically a fucking stormfront regular poster at this point and clearly lost your mind years ago over race but literally killing nazis is the reason you can all fucking sit here right now and wring your fat, sausagey fucking hands over whether it's ok if we punch the latest batch of anime nazis or not.

Drink at least a gallon of that bleach.

memedumpster - 2017-01-24 Yeah, bawbag, the Nazis were TALKING the Jews to death and were taking no actions, but it was still fine to just bomb Dresden.

You know that actions aren't equivalent to words, and you know that acting violently to someone not acting against anyone is wrong, and you don't care. You agree with fascism when it serves your interests.

Just like Hitler.

You are so much closer to being a Nazi than the people you call Nazis. Hell, if Hitler had called the Jews Nazis before killing them, by your logic he would have been right.

A lot of people are vomiting their authoritarian spleen onto the internet and this is a good thing. People need to see what awful fuckwads they are surrounded by, so if you fucks DARE actually try what Hitler tried, you can immediately be put down.

Maybe people are defending this shitbag because you're worse and too stupid to see it before you go full Nazi on the rest of us.

Rodents of Unusual Size - 2017-01-24 I'm so confused. Did you honestly just attack me for suggesting that we as a society collectively try and talk Neo Nazis out of being Neo Nazis?

bawbag - 2017-01-24 No, you're being attacked because you are an actually racist fuckwit.

Here's that time you admitted being racist, that you seemed so intent on bringing up again just recently.
http://imgur.com/NdYxFGw

And I don't think it's racist to close the borders to immigration. I think there should be a five year moratorium until the economy has jobs enough for everyone again. I think that's just common sense.

bawbag - 2017-01-24 No one gives a shit about your denials. A brief glance at your posting history here proves what a daily stormer wannabe you are.

I could give a fuck if somebody punched this guy. However I also believe you shouldnt be able to go to jail for a bar fight. The worst thing to get hurt in most scuffles is people's egos and the belief that violence will never touch them. There is nothing quite like the shock and surprise on the faces of people with big mouths when things go to the next level. It's quite funny really. I also believe this extends to criminals. Why shouldn't riot cops be able to go to town cracking skulls when a bunch of spoiled brats start smashing car windows and burning shit. It's fairly clear that people here are very satisfied to see someone they don't like get hit, I can't blame you, that's the way the cookie crumbles. But I would bet pennies to dollars most of you would wilt like daisies if the tables were somehow turned. Which they might be at any moment.

magnesium - 2017-01-21 Who among us could honestly expect to talk about Pepe in public without catching a right hook?

memedumpster - 2017-01-21 poeTV is pro-vigilante violence, because they are reg-left authoritarians.

You have a right to kill a vigilante for attacking you for speaking, they are the fascists in that situation.

15th - 2017-01-21 It's troubling you think someone has to be putting it on for denouncing mob violence against one's ideological enemies. The irony of this is lost on a lot of you. You guys have a lot in common with the alt right. I'd be curious to see the overlap of people who champion "fash bashing" and support military torture.

Not the same no matter how much you try to contort them to make a point.

As for 'you guys' I'm not quite sure what you mean by that but I'll play, I use toilets, so do the far-right (alt my arse), I eat food and so do they!

You know who listened to music? Hitler.

15th - 2017-01-21 I'm arguing against the sentiment of "justified" political violence, state, individual or otherwise. Public/individual and state attitudes don't happen in separate vacuums. The rubber meets the road when you stand by liberal democracy even for people you find reprehensible. The solution to combating authoritarianism is not becoming authoritarian ourselves.

I don't know if you've watched the news in the last 20 years or so mate, but America is very much there. Did you hear Trump got elected?

One guy punching a neonazi is not 'authoritarianism' without making a gargantuan effort to stretch that definition past the point of meaninglessness.

It is still 100% not comparable in anything but the most superficial way.

15th - 2017-01-21 >>I don't know if you've watched the news in the last 20 years or so mate, but America is very much there. Did you hear Trump got elected?

Yes, the Right has arrived. The Left's swing is a bit more subtle.

>>One guy punching a neonazi is not 'authoritarianism' without making a gargantuan effort to stretch that definition past the point of meaninglessness.

No, of course not. My arguments have little to do with dickhead guy getting punched and everything to do with the comments from our fellow progressive Poesters embracing the authoritarian principles that censorship and violence are acceptable when leveled against a worthy ideological enemy. It wouldn't be worth pointing out, but I think it reflects a new brand of Leftism that I'm not a fan of.

15th - 2017-01-21 We may never agree about this, but consider the hypothetical extremes of our opposing opinions. In 15th's cartoon land this conversation would exist as it does. In your cartoon, I would not be allowed to oppose acts like this under threat of physical or criminal retribution.

I know this is hypothetical, stupid and unfair, but I already typed it so...

Nominal - 2017-01-21 Bawbag, you've consistently shown here your desire to be shitty, silencing, and now outright violent towards other people. The only difference between you and the brownshirts you accuse everyone of being is hiding your shittiness behind paper thin progressive clothing instead of a bible or american flag.

I don't think there's anyone else here trying to actively make this a worse place than you right now.

bawbag - 2017-01-21 Actually, I very specifically mentioned that punching even a nazi is "still criminal" and "should remain so" but why let that get in the way of your hysterical ranting Nominal?

Crab Mentality - 2017-01-21 Look, let's all just be civil and let fascists take power and do whatever they want, because to say otherwise would be impolite. Once they control everything and have done everything they want, we can decide if we like it, and if not, we'll say say so, and they'll change everything back and go away.

Nominal - 2017-01-21 The ACL-JEW are TRAITORS who should be CULLED for TREASON!

RedRust - 2017-01-21 It will all be okay. The 2nd amendment is a wonderful check and balance to the situation...

memedumpster - 2017-01-21 Holy shit, 116 comments, say what you like, this place is once again jumpin'! We may have a real cultural incubator going here, I like it.

In order to address my stance on violence and accountability on a deeper level, I offer you a hypothetical situation, along with my opinions, and I invite you all to share how you differ if you do. Europeans, I suspect, will differ a great deal unless they hold a hard double standard due to my choice of hypothetical actors.

Let's say one of you Clown Shirts, okay, fuck that, let's say I myself did the following (so you wont all yell "false flag" or something) :

I decide to be an authoritarian lefty ushering in a Marxist revolution against the heinous enemies of the Glorious State, so I take an AK-47 into a truck stop in Alabama and kill everyone there while shouting "EIN VOLK, EIN REICH, EIN KLINTON!" I leave behind a 130,000 word manifesto written in crayon in a university grade therapy coloring book detailing how all who are against the Polite Bureau of Justice must be culled.

What do you think of the following :

1.) Whether I am miraculously taken alive or I do it with a progress vest and blow up the place with me in it, is the crime I just committed against these people for their political opinions an act of domestic terrorism?

memstance : YEP, according to the law an act of violence against someone for political intimidation meant to coerce the populace is terrorism. I agree with this and think having that law is important.

2.) If one of you posts the video of the gas pump security camera of the event and there's 180 comments where you all celebrate the deaths and hold me up as a glorious architect of the People's Socialist Paradise, are you also domestic terrorists?

memestance : NOPE. You're just opinionated assholes who have a right to that opinion, I am the terrorist because I committed the crime. You can shout "death to the South" all you want like a good Afghan tribesman, you're still just an asshole.

3.) If I am taken alive and enhanced interrogated until I told them you all helped me plan the attack, should the Man then drop the hammer on you immediately?

memestance : NOPE, you are innocent until proven guilty, because you cannot logically prove a negative. Unless further evidence is found corroborating my claim, I may just be saying that so they will stop making me listen to Hannah and Her Fields at 140db for 48 hours without sleep.

4.) Should Fuhrer Klinton be held responsible politically or legally for my actions in her honor?

memestance : NOPE, der Fuhrer only speaks for herself, and I am in no way a political representative of her beliefs or opinions, even if she agrees that what I did is a good thing, she is still not culpable for my decision to act. If I say she funded the attack during Puff Puff Give, the same rules apply to her as they would to any of you under the same conditions.

5.) Should laws be passed barring Marxists from the South and all of you forced to put your names into a Marxist registry?

memestance : NOPE, it is perfectly within your rights to be a Marxist and a proponent of violent revolution against the South, you should not be oppressed or silenced for having an ideology or stance, only when you act against others.

6.) Should it be taboo for anti-Marxists to use me as venomous vitriol against you and your ideology during an election cycle?

memstance : NOPE, that's the way the shit gets flung, protecting their right to fling it is more important than your feelings about it or how society views you, argue back.

So those are the basics, now let's get to a sticky situation bonus question!

BONUS.) If one of you Canadians trained me for the attack on Canadian soil in a Socialist Freedom Retreat and sent more like me in a steady stream across the border to do likewise, and Canada's government was on board with the Boomfucksplatter Revolution and refused to do anything about it when pressed, should America drone strike across the border to take out the camp?

memestance : I don't know. If the answer is yes, I sure wouldn't like it. I hate the idea of violating a sovereign border, but at the same time, it is violence approved by the Canuckistanian government. This one is super tricky, as nonviolent means such as sanctions might take time in which more truck stops could be shot to hell and people die. I don't think any solution to that one is a good one.

Anyway, as you were away for ages you missed my Chomsky submission that set a lot of people off, it will explain a fair bit (note that I put it to a vote as to whether to put the ignore script out in public).

"Holy shit, 116 comments, say what you like, this place is once again jumpin."

Also, more submitters getting to the front page now, so if I'm killing this place as some folk keep screeching at me, I am doing a fucking -horrible- job of it. ;)

But you're the one who said I was doing a bit, so it's your decision to ignore information about it.

No idea what an ignore script is.

Bort - 2017-01-21 That last one is interesting, because it's the reverse of the thought experiment I've heard about drones, where people thought they had the trump card with "how would you feel if some other country were drone-striking in the US?" My answer to that was, if that other country (say, Canada) were launching drone strikes against violent white supremacist / militia compounds in Idaho, because the US wasn't cracking down on them, I'd probably cheer Canada on. The other year of course it was a completely hypothetical scenario, but at present I have no faith that US law enforcement would take a stand against violent right-wing extremists.

But it all kind of comes down to how the drone campaign is conducted. If Canada is taking pains to keep civilians out of harm's way, and they're pursuing people whose crime is not ideology but violence, that's one thing. If the drone strikes were directed at nobody in particular and civilian casualties were the norm and not the exception (like the Left loves to falsely claim about the US in Pakistan), that would be different.

memedumpster - 2017-01-21 I was thinking of Pakistan when I considered that one. It's a real double-bind. It might require tightened border security, sanctions, and a bleeding edge minimum of military engagement, perhaps targeting primarily infrastructure. You'd have to make sure Canadian civilians stayed on your side and not send a charismaless lap dog to Canada to just shrug their shoulders and "I dunno, cain't tell ya, suck it up" like we did in Pakistan. Otherwise, Canada might kick out our military and harbor international terrorist leaders as a response.

Bobonne - 2017-01-21 I didn't read all that dumb shit, but hey, congratulations on finishing your transition into a human-shaped pile of garbage, meme.

Lookin' great.

memedumpster - 2017-01-24 Is your McJaiJai in a twist, asshole? Go have the surgeon who installed your vagina install you a clue.

You wannabe a widdle fascist who commits violence against people for your feefees?

God you Clown Shirts really don't know the difference between words and actions, do you?

The Nazis took ACTION against people, and that is what invited their destruction.

They didn't fucking talk the Jews to death.

Look, there's a place for fascists to congregate and plot violence, that place is bo-ne.ws.

https://www.bo-ne.ws/forum/read.php?19,633182

I tried signing up to ask them if they would like me to tell Homeland Security anything personally from them, but I doubt they'll approve my account, lol

Thanks for not reading but being a screeching authoritarian retard, though, you lived perfectly down to my expectations, and the sooner you dumbasses are marginalized out of the mainstream, just like your alt-right soul-mates, the better.

Lord_Crocodilicus - 2017-01-22 Haha he's a Nazi? Man you guys crack me up.
You guys cry foul when the right dehumanizes minorities, but some of the comments here are pretty cray cray. It's clear that to the vast majority of you justice is no longer blind. Whether you say that is a reaction to some white supremacist system that Spencer propels is irrelevant; you are abandoning a code of law that is only real because we make it so.
I bet the same people who make the argument that "he wouldn't understand any other language" are the first ones up in arms whenever some stupid kid gets spanked.
Nevermind the fact that Richard Spencer isn't a Nazi to such a degree that most of /pol/ thinks he's 1. controlled opposition 2. homosexual. I'm sure many of you spouting shit haven't listened to much of what he's said because you find him annoying or smug or something. He hangs out with Tila Tequila for fucks sake. I don't think the left has a threshold for what a "Nazi" is anymore and that is dangerous.
Anyways, I think we know who is gonna be on which side of bringing a pipe to a gun fight.
SAD

Lord_Crocodilicus - 2017-01-22 Hahaha wow the SPLC. I tell you to listen to him and you give me a link to a website that calls Jared Taylor of all people a Nazi. Richard Spencer doesn't walk or quack like a Nazi, what do you believe he actually believes? Or are you that ig'nant? Your only argument is "get a load of this guy" and an article written by people that hate Spencer -- an article that even when quoting directly from Spencer cannot point to any specific point where he has been anything but peaceful.
All because of a skewed video from NPI that shows people (Richard Spencer not included) sieg heiling Trump pretty clearly jokingly, one of the people roman saluting in the video is Mike Enoch, who was just doxxed by antifa. Interestingly they found out he was married to a Jewish woman who performed in drag shows.
SO, I'll make the point again, how do you define Nazi?
"Walks like, quacks like" isn't enough to start instituting corporal punishment

Lord_Crocodilicus - 2017-01-22 Another sad and pointless response. You never learn. It's frustrating watching you get raped so hard by EH in every argument and rather than actually just admitting you're wrong about mayyybe one or two things you just block yourself from outside opinions. We here in reality call that "denial".

bawbag - 2017-01-22 For real, you are going to have a very fucking bad time here new guy, I can absolutely guarantee that.

15th - 2017-01-22 Bawbag, if that is this this guy's real name, that's not cool. Make him miserable another way, that's over the line.

bawbag - 2017-01-22 Nazi apologism is over the fucking line.
This isn't portal of hug a nazi apologist.

You do you.

John Holmes Motherfucker - 2017-01-22 I basically agree with you, but I hate you. Could you consider not beginning every post with "HAHHAHAWOW"?

15th - 2017-01-22 Yeah, but places like this are kinda predicated on the idea that we are all enjoying the luxury of pissing into the abyss anonymously. Lord_Crocodilicus may be a wanker, but coercion isn't good either.

This is such a relevant example to the above discussion. Maybe Lord Crocodilicus pisses off, but how do I or anyone else know that you won't doxx us if we piss you off sufficiently? I don't want people to know my name is Tripp.

15th - 2017-01-22 So, essentially, the power is in your hands - I don't know how - I have a the 3D pipe screensaver.

If you ever want to me to retire, just say my real name. That would freak me out.

bawbag - 2017-01-22 "but how do I or anyone else know that [anyone] won't doxx us if we piss [them] off sufficiently?"

You don't. I don't. It's a big and wild internet out there and PoETV knows that better than most, especially given the history here and at POEred/OMM/SA etc

It's very much like ol' nazi boy spencer up there. People can handwring and bitch in the abstract about the ethics of it from on top of the fence, while some are willing to pick a side and get their hands dirty.

Lord_Crocodilicus - 2017-01-22 Roscoe is the name of a gentleman in a couple of the videos I've submitted. Just another example of low level investigation by bawbag.

Ratting people out for a ban sure worked well with Orcs didn't it? Also if somebody was capable and willing -as you seem to think- to drop dox on users, it would be really fucking stupid -even by your usual standards- to try pushing their buttons wouldn't it? That's not a threat btw, that's just common sense.

If you believed it, why on earth would you be trying to provoke someone like that? This is exactly the kind of reason people constantly tell you to get help. You're back on for full fucking roasting dickhead.

Literally everyone who has ever read your posts since poe-red feels nothing but revulsion, hatred and maybe a tiny bit of pity towards you and yet here you still come to routinely be verbally brutalised, to the point where you have a nervous breakdown again and again over your fucking stupid racist-as-fuck reactionary opinions.

Get help you mental black-hating piece of human excrement; failing that, die of something awful and soon.

memedumpster - 2017-01-24 Bawbag, are you seriously threatening him with vigilante bullshit?

YOU SHOULD BE BANNED.

memedumpster - 2017-01-24 You are now officially a worse person than the guy in this video.

Punch yourself.

memedumpster - 2017-01-24 By the way, I mean worse than the Nazi, not the fascist that punched him. You're still not quite as bad as that piece of shit.

You're getting there.

Oh wow, I just realized assaulting people for how they speak makes you _literally_ a grammar Nazi.