Happy 65th birthday to Ken Dryden

Red Fisher – and many others – believe that Dryden’s book The Game is the best hockey book ever published. As Fisher put it: “Dryden’s portraits of his teammates were classics, his view of head coach Scotty Bowman nothing less than exquisite.”

“He is uncompromising, unmellowing, unable to be finessed; he is beyond our control,” Dryden wrote about Bowman. “Being a nice guy doesn’t count; going to optional practices, coming early, staying late, doesn’t count. As Pete Mahovlich, Cournoyer and Henri Richard have discovered, what you have done before counts only until you can’t do it again. No politics, no favours, it is how you measure up to what you can do, how you help the team, how you perform – they are what count. It is thin comfort.

“There are many successful ways to coach. There are autocrats and technocrats, mean SOBs and just plain folks. What makes Bowman’s style work is an understanding, the understanding that must exist between a coach and his team: he knows the most important thing to a team is to win; we know he does what he does to make us win.

“I like him.”

On Larry Robinson developing from an outstanding player to a “presence,” Dryden wrote:

“It had to do with being so big, so strong, so tough, so agile, that no one knew how good he was and no one wanted to find out.

“A burst of speed, a quick pass, triumphantly in the clear, then looking up and seeing him, and feeling everything inside you slowly sucked out. It had to do with knowing that anything you can do, he can do better, so throw up your hands, shrug your shoulders, put on the brakes – what’s the use? He had a numbing reputation, an imperial manner, and the goods to back them up, a game rooted in defence, opportunistic on offence, limited, economic and dominant. It had to do with what he did and what he didn’t have to do because of how he did it.

“Nowhere was this more clear, or more important, than against the Flyers or the Bruins. They held him in such awe, treating him with an embarrassing, almost fawning respect, that they seemed even to abandon their style of play when he was around, and with it any hope of winning.”

You can read what Dryden wrote about Fisher earlier this year when Red announced he was retiring from The Gazette after 58 years covering the Canadiens by clicking here.

Dryden’s birthday comes a day after Sidney Crosby turned 25. Find out how Crosby earned the nickname “Creature” by clicking here.

…hope Canadian men soon will compete on the level of the Canadian women’s soccer …at least competitive with the USA
…the ladies were the highlight of this Olympics for Me …especially Christine Sinclair

Maybe the Habs have a 2nd line left winger in the system after all. They did draft a couple this season, howvere, they are a few years away from the NHL. Enter Steve Quailer, a 6’4″ 200lb left handed right winger. The good news is he played both wings in college and is described as a Pacioretty type. With any luck, since he is 23, he will be able to transition full time to the left side and become the 2nd line winger they need, with size. Here is a scouting report on him.http://www.boucherscouting.com/2012/07/habs-one-game-scouting-report-for-steve.html

You are right, it is hard to tell! He may end up being a poor man’s John Leclair , when Leclair debuted for the Habs, I had no idea what kind of player he was. Although, we did not have access to as much information as we do today.

Love the following quote from Ken Drydens piece on Red Fischer. There are many here who would do well to heed it:

“It’s harder for a good critic to be heard today. There are many more voices – mainstream news and sports, all-sports, all-business, all-politics and opinion channels; bloggers. The volume is louder; the tone nastier. Commentary is often abusive without being clarifying, its purpose to punish not improve.

Big play indeed, did you see on the replay a couple moments after she made the play, she just let out a huge sigh of relief, you could see just how vital and important a play that was indeed. Many unsung heroes on that team. Hard to believe first team sport medal for Canada in Summer Olympics since 1936. Still peeved it wasn’t the gold medal game, but the ladies sure did Canada proud.

Desiree Scott saved Canada’s bacon (pardon the pun) on that play. If that shot goes in, its game over. That was great defensive play to move off the post a bit when she saw that lane opening up, which allowed her to get her leg on a really nice strike.

First time poster, although honestly I’ve been reading the content and following your posts whenever I get the chance.

Long time Habs fan from NL now living and working in NS. Try to get to Montreal at least once a year to see the Habs play.

I want to wish Ken a Happy Birthday and share a story. I don’t have his personal contact information anymore. I do know he’s a ‘Class Act’ in every sense of the word. After he wrote his first book, and had his TV series on CBC, we were looking for a guest speaker for a Recreation Awards Banquet(in the early 90’s) that we were holding in St. Anthony, NL, a community in northern NL. We came up with the idea of inviting Ken, probably accepting the fact that he would never come. We got a hold of his CBC publicist who was handling his affairs at the time, told the person why we were looking for him, and the person said ok they would contact him and let him know. If he was interested someone would get back to us.

Not long afterwards, my phone rang, and it was Ken. First, I was in shock that he would return my call and secondly I was surprised that he was interested. He told me he wasn’t interested in money he was just interested in having an experience. So we put together an itinerary and sure enough he agreed to come. We took him on sightseeing tours and fishing trips, and even to stag party in a fishing stage.(atho he’s no big drinker!) He attended receptions, spoke at the banquet, and signed autographs for every one in St. Anthony. It was a very memorable experience for residents of a small Town in Northern NL.

Several years later, I was President of a provincial parks and recreation body, and invited him back to speak at a provincial banquet and again he accepted. We provided him with more unique experiences. Although, when I picked him up off the plane, I asked him if he was hungary. He said “I’m starved!” I asked him what he wanted to eat expecting him to say possibly seafood, and he yelped out “I would like to have a good Dairy Queen Cheeseburger with Fries!” Unexpected and funny, and he didn’t leave a fry on his plate. Ken spoke for about 50 minutes at the banquet and you could hear a pin drop. He took questions for about a hour, and he stayed in the banquet room until about 1:30am, signing every piece of Habs paraphernalia that was placed in front of him.

all you Subban haters should SHUT UP!, he has had two good seasons on very bad teams, and looks poised for a breakout, I don’t get the hate on for his attitude, Marchand is 10 times as cocky as Subban, and he gets nowhere near the same amount of flack for it.

Like it or not, he is one of the best young D-Men in the NHL, I for one am very proud that he is a Montreal Canadien, and I see no problems with his on-ice attitude.

Whoa where did that come from, I don’t think anyone has mentioned Subban today on this board.

_______________________________________________________
Well, he’s kind of had it in for me ever since I accidentally ran over his dog. Actually, replace “accidentally” with “repeatedly” and replace “dog” with “son.”

“It’s sad when our rookies have no NHL experience before they jump up to the NHL.” – nunacanadien

There is an infamous blogger out there who in his most recent post has re-stirred the PK trade rumours. That may be what the post was in response to. Thankfully the idiot blogger is saying this, because now we know it isn’t true 🙂

My only regret about today’s game…it would have been great to see Kara Lang (another of my favourites along with Matheson) on the field for that. Lang gave so much to the Canadian program, but was forced to retire at age 24 because of the accumulation of damage to her knee. Were it not for that, she would have been out there patrolling the midfield, giving Canada another offensive threat.

So happy for Matheson, who has been absolutely phenomenal throughout the tournament.

There is some karmic justice. Canada lost a game it had no business losing, and then they win a game they had no business winning. Have to feel for France, as they were absolutely stellar except for their finishing.

Wonder if there will be any controversy afterwards, because Kaylyn Kyle was SO far offside on that goal and was clearly involved in the play. Anybody that claims we never get any breaks…yikes. 🙂

She wasn’t offside.
She goes to that spot on purpose, if it comes off the goalie, the rebound is fair game as she is no longer offside once it hits off of the opposing team.
And as long as she isn’t playing the ball, any kick from a Canadian player counts as they are not the one who is offside.
Tactical positioning.

You are offside if you are behind the final defender and the ball and involved in the play. It is a common misconception that you must play the ball to be offside. The official rule is:

A player in an offside position is only penalised if, at the moment the ball touches or is played by one of his team, he is, in the opinion of the referee, involved in active play by:

interfering with play or
interfering with an opponent or
gaining an advantage by being in that position

Nobody could argue that she was not involved in that play, and she would clearly have gained an advantage by being offside should the rebound have come directly to her. She would only have been in a prime position because she was offside.

She was again offside after the rebound off the goalie, as she was behind both the goalie and the defender when the ball was struck by Matheson.

If that ball ticks Kyle on the way through, it is legitimately not a goal. She was in an off-side position throughout the entire play. Fortunately, it did not and I agree with you that it is a moot point.

No, it was a scramble play in extra time. She just ran straight through their back line and parked herself about 4-5 yards offside. Funny play.

Still grinning for Matheson…I love her style of play. She’s absolutely fearless out there despite being the smallest woman on the field in pretty much every game. You could do worse than modelling your soccer game after Matheson, who has the heart of a lion.

Kyle was even with the defender until the French player intercepted the ball and kicked it to Matheson, at which point Kyle was offside behind the French defender. Then Kyle dove out of the way of Matheson’s shot.

_______________________________________________________
Well, he’s kind of had it in for me ever since I accidentally ran over his dog. Actually, replace “accidentally” with “repeatedly” and replace “dog” with “son.”

“It’s sad when our rookies have no NHL experience before they jump up to the NHL.” – nunacanadien

She was even with the goalie and a couple of yards behind the defender when the ball was struck by Sophie Schmidt.

On Matheson’s strike, she was behind everybody including the goalie. She did a good job getting out of the way (although you can see she thought about coming over to the ball before she saw Matheson winding up), which made the second shot okay.

Nope…they left it alone, probably because it was Matheson that scored.

I only commented on it because that is a play I’ve seen called offside many times, but the refs let it go this time (generally a very well controlled game by the officials toay, by the way). Just for the conspiracy theorists out there that think Canada is always getting jobbed. 🙂

The women’s soccer team just won the Bronze!
_______________________________________________________
Well, he’s kind of had it in for me ever since I accidentally ran over his dog. Actually, replace “accidentally” with “repeatedly” and replace “dog” with “son.”

“It’s sad when our rookies have no NHL experience before they jump up to the NHL.” – nunacanadien

Steve – my buddy here in BUrlington that owns a sports bar always runs a few nice golf tournies every year. Last week he did his annual big one which raises money for a local womens shelter. My buddy outdid himself this year and had Bobby Baun at the tournament. Players had an aucition with winning bid getting an autographed Bobby Baun jersey and Bobby played all 27 holes with the winning foursome.

Mr. Baun after the tournament spoke of what a great tourney this was and how the passion of the host was so evident in that the charity was real to him and all the players. It is an annual memorial tournament in memory of my buddies father who passed away years ago and orginally opened the restaurant. Mr. Baun says normally I end these tournaments with a funny story, but this time he wished to discuss how much HE enjoyed the experience and couldn’t wait to come back. I got to meet the man the night before the tournament as tradition has it we all get together the night before tourney and gamble/buy each others teams.

Great story Burly….
There is something about how classy the old time athletes were in general. A lot of them came from poor backgrounds and appreciated what they had acheived.
I was lucky as a kid to meet a lot of players….Beliveau, Terry Harper from the Habs……Ron Fairly, Boots Day, Howie Reed from the Expos, a few of the Alouettes (but I really only remember Charlie Parker.)
All these guys were friendly, always had time to chat with a pesty 10 year old kid.
Makes me laugh when I hear stories about today’s athletes (some anyhow) pretending to be on their phone when they see fans approaching….

Exactly Psycho, he hung in there the whole night before at bar, and then the entire next day and evening. Steve Ludzik was there also, both guys were talking about how they would tell all their buddies from NHLPA who do these kinds of events about how good this tourney is.

So in the Canada Russia Junior games upcoming, the Russian roster has approx. 20 players in next years draft while Canada has a couple. Will be interesting to see how Canada fares, also a chance to watch Grigorenko as he is in this tournament.

…Grigorenko will be interesting, as he was part of Our earlier debate who was to be Our Draft Pick
…a Dog ?, or not a Dog ? …THAT was the question
…Methinks, not a dog
…but, at this time, My choice would remain Gally

And i thought i was an optimistic fool ! Can`t believe the results of the poll so far.
You guys seem to think that there won`t be a lockout or a long one.

Although i agree that it makes no sense to go on a lockout,i think that it is all in the hands of the owners. Since a lockout is essentially the owner locking out the doors for his employees i just do not see how they could win anything if they do go on a work stopage. Unless they give in on every point in the CBA and just sign it as it is right now, the players have them by the…The way the owners spent their money does not show a lack of revenues and a sense of controled spendings.

With Donald Fehr at the helm of the NHLPA do not expect any sentiments in the negociations.
I think the lockout will probably be solved a few weeks before the outdoor classic. This is strategically a very important commercial rendez-vous for the NHL. You can be certain that if nothing is solved by then Call me Gary will step in and the owners will give in .

Don`t get me wrong. I crave for a good ol`habs game right now and have been for a while convincing myself i am not normal and should not write this on here but…

I also understood long ago that my favorite sport and my favorite team are not on the same planet as i am.

I would be very surprised if there was a lockout.
The owners know they lose if there is a lockout. They have worked too hard to market the league and regain the fans from the last lockout. They can’t let hockey regress once again.
Both sides are aware of this, and with the experience of the last one, they were both prepared for this expiration.
I think they are much more willing to make a deal. And from the latest contracts the owners do not have a lot of leverage.
I have a strong feeling both sides know where they want to land, and I think its closer than what people think.
I also have a feeling both sides know where they expect to make an agreement. In my opinion the ridiculous offer that was made to the players shows that the owners know exactly what the players want and that they have a plan to get the most possible while still making sure they come to an agreement.

To the CRTC committee considering varied matters re Bell Media, and specifically: 2. Bell Media Inc. and 7550413 Canada Inc., partners in a general partnership carrying on business as Bell Media Canada Radio Partnership
Montréal, Quebec
Application 2012-0573-2
Application by Bell Media Inc. and 7550413 Canada Inc., partners in a general partnership carrying on business as Bell Media Canada Radio Partnership (Bell), for a broadcasting licence to operate a French-language AM commercial radio programming undertaking in Montréal in order to replace its English-language AM commercial radio programming undertaking CKGM Montréal.

I oppose the proposed transition of Montreal’s English-language 990/690 CKGM (TSN Team 990) radio station to the French-language RDS Sports on the basis of a ‘notwithstanding’, or ‘exception’ to current CRTC guidelines.

Further, I oppose said transition from a perspective of an English language speaking ex-Quebecer and Canadian citizen living outside Quebec.

I live in British Columbia. I am part of the ‘unique’ diaspora of ex-Quebecers of both French and English speakers across Canada and the world that value one of the last remaining ties and cultural vestiges to our birthplace, Quebec.

I will speak first from my own perspective, but I believe mine may be similar to many other ex-Quebecers.

TSN Team 990 is one of the diminishing remaining mediums of ‘community’ in the English language at the core of the spirit and sense of ‘belonging’ of the English language in Quebec. This argument will be better expressed by others that have and will intervene on this matter still residing in Quebec.

My experience, though, as a Canadian/former Quebec citizen that was/is part of the English-speaking diaspora which reluctantly left Quebec because of language-issues, but have tightly held-onto their fandom of the Montreal Canadiens Hockey Club.

For many ex-Quebecers of varied languages, not only English, the Montreal Canadiens has remained an essential part of our cultural and personal identities, no matter where destiny has taken us.

That ‘fandom’ being often the last remaining tenuous link, as ex-Quebecers, ironically to the French-language itself.

TSN 990 is a station I would log onto anywhere in the world on the internet via TSN.CA, on my pc or smartphone, to listen and feel part of the interests and passions that was still ‘part of my soul’ as an ex-Montrealer and ex-Quebecer.

Speaking on behalf of passionate Montreal Canadiens’ fans born outside Quebec across Canada, the US, Europe, and around the world, losing access online to TSN Team 990 ‘the Voice Of The Montreal Canadiens’ will be a loss, but for those whom were born in Quebec and now living in other parts of Canada and the world, it is in my mind, a serious cultural loss.

Montreal’s majority demographics will easily be able to create a future French language all-sports and/or French language voice for the Montreal Canadiens. But, the fraying English community still remaining in Quebec is finding it increasingly difficult to maintain it’s core of communication mediums.

The CRTC’s strict guidelines do not make sense in Quebec’s unique and sensitive linguistic milieu as it may in other provinces.

The CRTC should impose a ‘notwithstanding’ or ‘exception’ in the case of changing the license of CKGM 990/690 (TSN Team 990) to a French language sports station.

CKGM 990/TSN Team 990 must be allowed to remain an English language station, and alternatives be found to create a distinct new French language station for that demographic.

…re the above copy of the ‘intervention’ I posted on the CRTC website link quoted by Mike Boone in His Gazette column; I am not at home near my pc to edit and re-read much before sending to CRTC, but I hope it gets to their attention on time and provides another perspective for the CRTC in their deliberation on this matter
…as if My opinion amounts to a hill of beans or not to them, I thought it was important enough to Myself to say ‘something’

Thank you for your post. I ask all the members of HIO to lodge an intervention with the CRTC if you haven’t already and to use social media to try to get as many other supporters as possible. I am now in Ottawa but grew up in Montreal and come from a family with a French and an English parent. I believe that there should be, and that there is need and room for an RDS and TSN station to thrive in Montreal. Thank you to all who have supported TSN990!

57 career regular-season losses. 6 Stanley Cups. Not too shabby.
___________________________________________________
Being a Hab fan is like buying real estate: only over the long-haul will you appreciate the true value of your investment.

The last night of Maple Leaf Gardens in 1999 Ken Dryden made a point of going out to the street and shake hands & ask people where they were from (no autographs given) while they were lined up and waiting to be let in for the final NHL game in MLG – I was in the lineup & got a hand shake & had a few words with him. But the most humourous event at that time was this drunken individual from Boston (surprise….lol) flashing a wad of cash at Dryden and demanding a ticket to the game (since he came so far) with Dryden tactfully excusing himself from the guy and continued to meet and greet the people outside the Gardens………

One last note – Dryden was and is overly modest – you see it the article about Red Fisher . Dryden say he was playing poorly in a certain stretch….and only Red noticed. Yes, Dryden had a few bad games, but mostly he just ended up winning – all those Cups. Red was just saying Dryden could play better – because that was Red’s job.

It’s a long story, but I became a life time Habs fan after shaking Dryden’s hand at Dorval airport on a certain Sunday afternoon in 1972. (Or was it 1971?) The Habs had just come back from beating the Bruins and I was a tiny tot. Saw all the old heroes that day…..Beliveau and Dryden were so big!
Anyway, after reading dozens of books about hockey, somehow I hadn’t read the “The Game” until last summer. Yes, its almost as good as they say – an excellent book, and it bravely takes on topics we still debate – like fighting and practice and skills development – clearly ahead of its time.
Will always respect Dryden, even if he worked for the Leafs for a while:-)

Ken’s post Habs work has been more impressive than his goaltending was. Yes, he stole the 1971 Cup for us a-la-Patrick Roy (who stole 86 and 93 a-la 1971 Dryden), but from then on, (sad trumpet SFX). My discarded appendix could have played goal for that era’s team, and when the chips were down vs Soviets in 72 and 75, and many, many other games, Ken was merely average.

But he was a GREAT writer, still is, and seemingly and honest politician and NHL executive. I have a ton of respect for the man.
Loving the Habs since 1965

I have to disagree with your “merely average” comment.
The 70’s dynasty teams were anchored by Dryden’s ability to remain focused in those games when the puck was not in the Habs end most of the time. Even the Big 3 gave up breakaways that Dryden would routinely shut down.
The 71 and 73 Cup wins weren’t expected, as the Orr and Esposito led Bruins were heavy favourites.
However, I do agree that he is a great writer.

Happy Birthday Ken.
As you see from my profile, he is my all-time favorite Hab. Only goalie in history better than KD was Tretiak.
The Game is the best sports book ever written. I must have read it at least three or four times (just in the last ten years :)).
And Ken, I remember you coming back to Montreal to get your shoes repaired at my Gramps’ shoe store in NDG! He never said it, but you were his favorite customer.
Thanks HIO for the memories this article brought out.

I have always wondered about the negative comments about a really good Habs blog that I always enjoy reading after HIO – Habs Eyes on the Prize.
I know that they didn’t make too many friends at discussion here because their opinions were different, but HEOTP has some great hockey writers and analysts and they keep the good content coming all year round. I just don’t know why is it not as popular and people frown upon them.

I have no problems with most of the guys over at Eyes on the Prize. Robert’s original Eyes on the Prize website was one of the best Canadiens fan sites out there and he has been a wonderful contributor here over the years as well.

I agree. However, I much prefer the current version of HEOTP over Robert’s. He mostly wrote about the history and trivia, while I am more interested in the current Canadiens – players, games, prospects.

SH – I don’t mean to correct you but Robert L was much more than “history and trivia”. He wrote with heart and spirit about the day to day adventures of our beloved team. He was right up there with JT and Mike Boone. The reader connected with him as he lived the game to game ups and downs of the Habs. The newer version of Eyes On The Prize has taken a much different route that is focused on statistical interpretation of the team and how it is performing. It is also a team effort in contrast to Robert being a one man show (which looking back may have been an impossible task).

There’s a ton of info on the new site but none of it touches the soul or stimulates the heart of any true Hab fan the way Robert did (which to be fair is not part of the new writing team’s mandate)

24, I absolutely see your point. Also knowing that you have been Habs fan for a very long time, I see the appeal the site had for you. Robert did a great job running it by himself and I am grateful I could read some of his articles.
I only have been Habs fan for a short time – 18 years. In that time, not much else happened that would have a massive historical interest to me besides blunders like Roy trade, etc. I am also quite interested in 70s, but not much else. Don’t take me wrong – I am proud to be a fan of team with such a history, but I don’t like to dwell on it. As a young person, I keep looking towards the future rather than past. Therefore I see articles about our prospects heaps more interesting than reading what happened on this or that day 60 years ago. I also love numbers, statiscics and fresh news or analysis – this touches my heart more than a story that happened before I was born.
The site used to get very few comments and the community was much smaller than it is now. However, I am still surprised that although HEOTP keeps bringing new content, everybody stays here and comments on articles 1 week old. I think this is really bizarre.
I always like when a writer touches my heart – however I live in information age. I like short, quick, analytical pieces that keep me informed. Anything long, with too many adjectives, overly sensitive or nostalgic (from the times before I was born) doesn’t catch my eye during my busy daily life. I rarely read Montreal Gazette’s articles that Boone writes, although I love his live blogs.
Maybe you can get my point – and I believe most of online-active Habs fans would be fairly similar to me.

SH – What I’m hearing from you is that there might be a bit of a generation gap in regards to the likes and dislikes of each site. I understand and respect that point of view.

I know Mike Boone personally and he is an old fart just like me. However, he is a very hip old fart who has a flair for writing. Some of his former ‘city’ columns for the Gazette will also attest to that fact. Simply stated, he is the face of this website just like Carey Price is now the face of the Habs. No Mike Boone on HI/O just might turn out to be Columbus with no Rick Nash.

As I mentioned before, Robert L is a heart and soul type of guy. I have to admit that we basically have agreed on most things related to the Habs over the years so I guess I’m a bit biased in that regard. Talking hockey with him is like sitting with some of your buddies watching a game in a bar. Robert’s greatest strength might just be his ability to listen to others. That’s a lot harder to do than most people realize. He also is a very generous human being.

As for the new team at EOTP, I have only met Kevin and Andrew. They are both devoted Hab fans who put in countless hours writing about the team. I don’t think the average visitor to a site realizes just how much time and effort go into writing a daily thread. It really cuts into your personal family time.

I try to keep an open mind when it comes to the new way of analyzing hockey but I also think there has to be a bit of balance between what the stats state and what my ‘eyes’ see. I think the new EOTP site should keep that in mind. Contrasting opinions are not always welcome on EOTP and there tends to be a bit of a private boys club feel to the comments. There might be dozens of replies but it is mostly the same 20 guys conversing back and forth. I also felt the site went overboard when it came to dumping on poor Randy Cunneyworth. He was in a no-win situation from the very start. A classic sacrificial lamb.

Another good “in-season” Hab site to visit is the Lions in Winter. They give an in-depth breakdown of each game, both home and away. I also feel that Pat Hickey has a very realistic take on the team. Talking hockey with him in person is quite enlightening. He’s right up there with MB when it comes to seeing the team for what it really is.

As for HI/O, I think the site has settled down from the early days of brawls and swordfights. It could get pretty ugly with worthless “exchanges” that went on for page after page. We lost a lot of good people due to the actions of a few juveniles. It really used to bother me but lately I’ve come to accept that the internet is based on the lowest common denominator. I just pick my spots and tend to post before the nutbars come out of their cages.

I see your point. I hope I didn’t come across as someone who would not like Mike Boone or Robert L. I really enjoy their work.
I am pretty busy in daily life and hence mostly fact-oriented when it comes to sports. And living outside your time zone, I miss a lot of games so it might be hard for me to judge the accuracy of opinions of varios bloggers – there is no was I can watch 82 games a season so in many of them, I need to rely on someone else’s opinion and interpretations of the game.
Anyway great chatting to you and I’ll be seeing you around at HIO – of course we all hope Mike Boone stays and will be entertaining us during the season.

Excellant read 24. Your take on Robert L is first rate and anyone from the first start up of HIO would agree with you as well. Robert gave up alot of his time putting it together while juggling a job and family. Good work.

EOTP should be the premier alternative habs analysis website out there. Maybe it is. Those guys are certainly digging deeper into alternative measures of success than anyone I’m aware of. Here are my issues with the site

1) the analysts worship at the altar of things like corsi, fenwick, shooting %, zone starts, and they rarely spend any time on discussing the usefulness of goals. Other data heads (not affiliated with EOTP, can’t remember their names) have spent time showing why goals is a better measurement of individual and team success than those other things. To have a group of people who consider themselves experts in alternative measures totally ignore goals, to me, is baffling.

2) few, if any, of them have played hockey. I know, this sounds elitist. The old “you never played” argument. Know what? Actually watching hockey (all levels, all age groups), playing, and coaching is more valuable than crunching over line matchups. I honestly believe these guys would rather pore over obscure data than go down to the local rink and watch some junior A or coach a bantam B team. They’d learn a lot more about the game doing the latter rather than the former.

3) it’s not a welcoming place. Just try to disagree, and be forceful about it. You will get banned. I have witnessed this.

4) they are always insulting the main stream media. As if anyone at that site has any idea what it is like to be a reporter.

5) They use phrases like “traditional narrative”, “regress”, “confirmation bias”, “sheltering”, “cratered” (they actually mean to turn “caldera” into a verb, not “crater”). All this in an effort to make it seem like they are digging deeper than you or I, the common man.

6) most of them actually believe they are smarter than randy cunneyworth. Some of them think they are smarter than Marc bergevin. True story, they think bergevin will be an ok GM as long as he hires a good analytics person. Some of them have even suggested that the EOTP facilitators apply for the job because they believe they are qualified to work in an NHL front office. Yes, some of the EOTP people could help bergevin do a better job. I’m not kidding you.

7) the will often use obscure little measurements to try to prove one player is more valuable than another. This, despite all other evidence, most especially traditional observation by knowledgable hockey people.

8) they ae down right arrogant arseholes. You think we have arseholes on this site? Well, we do. But our arseholes are funny and don’t take themselves too seriously (usually). Their arseholes have an inflated sense of self worth because they took an intro to stats course (my grandmothers dog took an intro stats course). Just try to disagree with them. See point #3.

9) for all their talk of digging deeper and trying to truly understand the game, they mostly just love to be counter-culture. Recently, a new habs data guy introduced his ratings for successful events (things like “successful puck wins in the defensive zone”). He threw out numbers like Emelin has a 70% success rate in this category (not exact numbers, you get the idea). However, he never bothered to explain his methodology on how he records these events, nor did he provide a baseline for comparison purposes. And all those guys were like “ooh, great work, I always knew Emelin was good at puck battles, now I know for sure” and none of them really asked him to explain his process in more detail. So, in that sense, I think they are often fraudulent.

Ultimately,

I think HIO lost a little something when those guys migrated, took over EOTP (and turned it into the monster that it is now). This site is a little lacking in that sort of analysis, although Chris, Commandant, TomNickle do bring some of that. However, HIO is so much less confrontational now. There was a time when you couldn’t log in here without seeing Berkshire picking a fight with anyone and everyone. So whatever HiO has lost, I think it is better in the long run.

On the other hand…
– EOTP and other sites like theirs are breaking the mold when it comes to performing and presenting far deeper analysis.
– They base their data on normal, available stats from sites such as nhl.com and Behind The Net, among others.
– It’s a new way of looking at the game and sometimes new can be just a bit intimidating to fans.

I say give it time. The more people and organizations who delve in to and use these stats the more refined and acceptable they may become.

You are forgiven for the smiley! 😀
And people here could use them more I think, so you know if they are joking or not. As juvenile as they seem to be, in a purely verbal written conversation these are really useful. 8)

Well thanks heaps for your opinion, twilight!
You can read my response to 24 on my view of what hockey news I like to read. While their analysis may not always be 100% correct, I still think they bring a lot of interesting stuff on the table. Yes, Andrew has been really aggressive and not respectful to other opinions, and that’s where they are losing a lot of support.
However, I like to read their discussions and don’t seem to find any sort of rubbish HIO forums are covered on a daily basis. Lots of abuse, and I disagree with you when you say that “our arseholes are funny and don’t take themselves too seriously (usually)” – I think it gets really bad here and I remember you were a target of abuse just a couple of days ago.
HIO lost a lot of great commenters and posters – Robert Rice, JT, the author of “The Habs Future” (can’t remember name) etc. and while it is a good news website that I visit every single day, I wouldn’t rank it that much higher over HEOTP, especially over the off-season.
I could imagine a fantastic website combining some great journalism and quality commenters like yourself and those you mentioned (Chris Tom etc…) – in the perfect world. But in an imperfect one with only imperfect choices available, I am really surprised that a site with so much fresh and new information on a server that offers so much interaction between different NHL teams and that offers alternative analysis and opinions gets ignored on a basis of personal dislikes.

Hey SlovakHab, thanks for your comments! Rest assured that we aren’t losing a lot of support, the site grew by over 33% this last calendar year. To do that while most sites took a hit because the Habs sucked is pretty impressive.

I think that there is some truth to the idea that people can get too wrapped up in numbers and forget that your qualitative judgements are still incredibly important. This is a common thread amongst the sabermetrics crowd, as many of them think their understanding of numbers (which is sometimes dubious, by the way…the criteria used by the analytic bloggers to determine the “scoring chance” is a complete farce) is all that is necessary. I think that the fans of sabermetrics in hockey often forget that the guru of sabermetrics, Billy Beane, was himself a former major league baseball player. It was never just about the numbers, but also about the gut evaluation of somebody who had played the game at a high level.

Out of this comes one of my biggest pet peeves, how often prospect reporting is often done by people who have clearly never seen that prospect play live.

You miss so much when you don’t watch a game live. Watching television footage is often better than nothing, but you still miss an awful lot when it comes to how hard the kids are working off the puck, how is their overall skating compared to their peers (and not just compared to their size, my biggest frustration…I hate the term “skates well for a big man” because you still need to skate well period if you have any hope of being an effective NHL player) and the quality of their teammates.

You will still get it wrong sometimes. I’ve probably seen a hundred Guelph Storm and Belleville Bulls games over the past decade. I’ve got a lot of the calls right (Dustin Brown, Ryan Callahan, Drew Doughty becoming stars, Daniel Paille and Manny Malhotra being overrated).

I’ve also gotten at least as many absolutely wrong: I thought Ryan Parent would become a dominant defensive defenceman in the NHL, I thought D’Agostini would be a longshot to even make the NHL because of being one of the most egregious floaters I’ve ever seen in the OHL and I really thought Matt Beleskey would turn into a pretty good NHL power forward because of how thoroughly they dominated junior hockey.

Going out to see these kids live is crucial if people really want to form an opinion on the kids. Besides, it is actually a great night out. In Guelph, tickets are about $20, and you’ll be hard-pressed to find a better entertainment value than that given the high calibre players you’ll get to see live. Over the years, I’ve got to watch countless current stars in the NHL in the OHL or Memorial Cup. Hard to beat that, and a heck of a lot cheaper than going to NHL games. 🙂

You’re right on getting to wrapped up in the numbers. I try and not make definitive decisions on players in general, but base my opinions on data both observed (you know, watching the games) and recorded. I certainly haven’t quit watching games. I know that my knowledge of these stats has changed my perceptions of what to watch for, but that’s about it.

As for seeing the kids live, I absolutely encourage that as well. I’m a fan of the Saskatoon Blades, and that’s been advantageous for a couple of our prospects (Dietz and Thrower), and I have been able to see others as well past and present (White, Maxwell, Chipchura, Holland, Gallagher, etc). I don’t claim to have seen a lot of other kids live that we do rankings on. I would if I could.

I also don’t claim expertise for us as individual analysts of the prospects or the panel as a whole. We try and get a lot of opinion and form the rankings on that. If I had confidence in my expertise, I’d say screw you to the other guys and write up my own rankings. Our write-ups are simply information pieces with an idea of who we as a panel are keeping a closer eye on that’s coming up through the system. I’ve gone over my lists the past two years and tried to see if there was any pattern as to why I misjudged a player (either postively or negatively). I hope each year mine and the panel’s lists are better. But other than Chris Boucher, none of us are seeking employment as scouts right now or come from that background. We’re fans with opinions.

Hey, I figured I’d respond here. I’m Bruce Peter, one of the editors of EOTP.

1. Goals are definitely very important. A lot of those measurements we use are to try and predict or anticipate goal scoring behaviour. The only problem with goals is there just aren’t enough of them. There are a lot of shots and shifts that don’t have goals in them, and that’s what we try and track. In the end, though, we’re searching for goals, and I know I certainly don’t ignore goals scored at either end of the ice when trying to analyze a player.

2. We’ve all played hockey. Although we are almost all ex-goalies. Of course, like all the commenters and contributors here who have played, we sucked and couldn’t make a living with it. 🙂

3. Criticism is accepted but be prepared to be challenged. Most work takes a lot of effort and we won’t simply let it be slagged if the criticism seems unjust. If you want more information on what we’re doing, we’re happy to provide that for you. People don’t get banned for dissent, the only people that get banned are those consistently not contributing constructive conversation or get personal. I hope neither our readers or our writers go outside the realms of the material that is being discussed, i.e. don’t get personal or don’t make false claims. This can happen at times and I apologize if it happened to you and you were turned off.

4. I have done reporting before. Kevin certainly has as well. It’s a tough job and I appreciate that. The common problem we generally have is the mixing of storytelling with analysis. There are places for both lines of articles but I know we’re generally not fond of when storytelling poses as analysis.

5. We certainly don’t try and use those terms as exclusionary, or to show that anyone is ‘part of the club’ or whatever. Language regarding player usage is still in its infancy, those are some that have been used but might not be in the future.

6. Criticism of coaches and managers has existed long before our site came along. Cunneyworth did a poor job. I don’t claim I could do better, I can’t run a practice. I can recognize that his tactics were ill-suited for the NHL. With Bergevin, yes we would like to see an analytics head/department on there. It’s common practice in baseball, basketball and football and soccer are getting there. Hockey’s behind, we wanted him to be ahead of the curve. There might be a guy on staff already that provides that for Bergevin, I don’t know. As for the ‘EOTP takes control’ stuff, that was mainly a time killer discussion that wasn’t serious. No one expects anyone to go from writing to an assistant GM. We do like to have fun on the site, believe it or not. We aren’t serious 100% of the time.

7. A measurement being obscure doesn’t negate its importance. Anyways, we like to talk pucks and compare players.

8. Thank you.

9. Chris Boucher has a scouting system and he’s a little less forward on it than the data we usually use because he personally owns it. He’s a scout and if he gives up all his methodology he loses employment opporutnities.

If the players and owners can’t get together and iron out a new CBA and the season is lost, who gives a rat’s ass!

With all the talent the Canadiens organization currently has outside the NHL, and the amount of bad contracts they have in the NHL, would it be so bad if we wiped a year off the calendar?

Gomez, Kaberle and the least worrisome of the bunch, Gionta, would all be down to one year left on their deals if we skipped a season.

And to tide us over, we could watch Tinordi, Beaulieu and another dozen future Habs play in Hamilton. I’m sure most of the AHL games could be found online or on TV, especially if the NHL is lights out.

Plus we could watch Galchenyuk in the OHL and have the WJHC to keep us busy.

If the NHL shuts down there’s so much great hockey readily available that it wouldn’t send me off the deep end, like it did several years ago. Plus our team stinks anyways ;-).

I’m pretty sure this is Bergevin’s reasoning as well. He has some tough decisions to make like whether or not to try to squeak into 8th place by signing guys like Doan to big $$$. He’s said that he intends to “let the kids play” and, to me, this is how you condense everything you wrote into four little words. If that’s what’s going on then I’m good with it.

Even if the Canadiens play a season of bad hockey with bad contracts on their roster and unready talent in the minors, I want to see it, I prefer to watch the Canadiens play as opposed to not seeing them play.

Of course, I agree with the premise that if we’re going to have a season wiped out due to a lockout imposed by the owners, it’s not catastrophic that it happen in a season like this next one. The Penguins and Rangers and Kings and Canucks may not see that way, their window is open and they’d want to cash in, but for us it’s not that big a loss. It’s not like we’re the Expos in ’94.

———————————————————————–This isn’t “Billionaires vs. Millionaires.” Only a willfully uninformed fool would apply that sloppy shorthand designation to this disgraceful power grab crafted by some of the wealthiest individuals and corporate entities in North America aimed against professional athletes.–Larry Brooks of the New York Post

Haven’t jumped in on the possibility of a trade with edmonton but I have to say the thought of Yakupov and Galchenyuk playing together down the road makes it a real tough one for me. On the one hand PK has the ability to become a number one Dman, on the other, anyone who’s seen Sarnia play 2 years ago was no doubt as impressed as I was with the chemistry Yak and Gally had. This all makes for interesting conversations but in all likelyhood its just hot wind. Tambellini (sp?) seems to like his young dmen in the pipes (that doesn’t sound right)… anyways… he seems to like his D prospects. I remember him commenting about it at the draft when he was asked why he took forwards.

Occupation: Professional Hedonist… aiming low and exceeding expectations 😉
Hobo with a laptop

…nothing like summer Team Canada hockey to get the juices flowing
…Nathan MacKinnon I hear ineligible to play …bummer 🙁
…I thought this Canada-Russia Tournament over-rules the normal junior eligibility rules …but apparently not
…Nathan may be missed

Post Script Frank, …when those guys started suspiciously sizin’ up My butt after the free meal, I got The Kids in the car and am driving North as We speak ! …hopping Starbuck to Starbuck all the way ! 🙂

…actually, beautiful country down here Frank …if you want a beautiful surreal Pacific coastal drive, Highway # 1 all the way to Santa Monica
…You won’t regret
…I’ve done it several times over the years by car
…I still want to do it again next time by motorcycle

…have any of You read Ken’s tribute piece in The Globe & Mail on Red Fisher’s retirement …or re-read it, as I did today ?
…My God, what a magnificent writer Ken is
…He never became Prime Minister, nor was He able to turn the woe-begone Turdranna MuppleWeeds around but, My Heavens, what a presence as Our Goalie and a writer
…Ken and I are the same age …I met Him a few times in Alexis Nihon Plaza where My office was located at the time, and the Brasserie …He was unlike any hockey player I had known up to that time …cerebral, observant, self-contained, always, at least when I met with Him, with a book
…I knew Him only superficially, but I was still unprepared for how beautifully He could manipulate the written word, as in ‘The Game’
…You would think anyOne with a writing genius like Ken Dryden would have written more, whether novels or as a journalistic essayist in sport or politics

He did deal with a very difficult period of time in the Maple Leafs history. It is a topic not to be treated lightly and from my perspective he dealt with it with dignity. His tenure in Toronto was at a very difficult stage as it related to ownership and where the team was going. I give him credit for trying to help them, but I don’t feel he was truly given the power which he was initially promised.

He has handled every challenge presented to him with class, he may not have always succeded, but his heart has always been in the right place. My opinion only.

…but We are talking retiring sweater numbers Phil …Toe rates, based on His level of play on the ice, deserves His number retired as much as Elmer Lach
…yet, when One considers the ‘totality’ of Toe Blake’s contribution to the success of the Montreal Canadiens, as a Player AND as Our Coach …there is separation from reason that Our Habs have yet to honor His Legacy by retiring His number
…if They want a banner up there for GMs’ names, then Sammy should be front and centre, first on the list
…but, …for now ? …Retire Toe’s Number 6 !!! 🙂

Nail for PK not a problem. we can do without PK right now because we ain’t gonna be a cup contender for a few years. but when our D-Men come up from Hamilton. Nail would look pretty good along side our #3 pick. and we could put together a pretty good D without PK. I’m not saying get rid of PK. he’s gonna be a good one but. you have to give up something to get something and our scoring should take priority. it’s harder to score goals than it is to keep them out….

I don’t believe these rumours for a second, but if we continue with your thought experiment, the cool thing is that if we pulled the trigger on that trade we’d land Nail Yakupov AND Seth Jones, because without P.K. on the roster we’d finish dead last next season.

If it happens, it will not be PK for Nail straight up. It will be a prospect (Beaulieu or Tinordi because Edmonton needs defence), PK and a 2013 pick. This would be a bold move for Bergevin and I agree that Nail would look pretty good along side our #3 pick.

Everyone has to play right handed sticks, there are no left-handed sticks. Also you can only use your forehand part of the stick, no backhanders. You can kick the ball or touch it with anything other than your stick. They have a shooting box in front of the net, that is the only place you are allowed to score from. If you are on defense and the ball accidentally hits your foot, it’s a penalty shot for the other team. The ball is actually really heavy, it’s the weight of a cricket ball and I think the stick doesn’t flex too much, so you really gotta get your whole body into a swing. The field is soaked to keep the ball wet and prevent it from bouncing.

I have a friend who plays on the USA Olympic team. She came out to play some ball hockey with us, their hand eye is amazing and every shot she made hit a corner, they are amazing athletes.

Amazing stat. He played in some of hockey’s greatest teams and he was one of the reasons for their greatness.
Funny whenever you see video of the old games how small the pads were compared to today. So much more to shoot at in those days which make his success even more so.

I didn’t see Plante play all that much until the latter portion of his career when he was with the Blues and Leafs,so I really can’t give an objective comment about him. But I believe when you’re discussing who the greatest Habs goalie (over the last 50 years anyways) was, you have to say it would be a tossup between Dryden and Roy,with Roy getting the nod as he didn’t have a Hall of Fame club playing in front of him every night as Dryden did.

…Phil, one of the advantages of being 65 is that I have watched and played hockey since the very first black & white telecast, which is approximately one year earlier than when Plante arrived as a rookie, or approximately the same time
…My opinion is based on actually seeing EVERYONE of these goalies play at the time, and post-Plante
…as You have noted Your acknowledgement that You did not see Plante in His prime, I understand Your bias for Your Heroes of Your youth
…but, Plante was The Best ! 😉
…Glen Hall, Terry Sawchuk and Patrick Roy very close behind

65 ? Oh man not getting any younger (talking about me too). He was one of the first impressive goalers ,tall ,very tall,agile and intimidating. Worst part of it is that he was not necessarly interested in the goalie job, he could have easily lived without it. He was the first truly intellectual hockey player wich at that era was unusual. Don`t even know if there are intellectuals in th NHL even now …

He has a very colorfull and thoughtfull view of what was and what is hockey. His inside views really beats the ones we get from the medias. Still think he would have been more usefull to hockey in his after career but we needed him more than he needed us..
Happy birthday sir !

I would personally shouffer Kaberle to the Airport if the FLyers even had one second of weakness and was willing to sign off on a trade. EVen if it meant flying to the Czech Rep and driving him to the Prague Airport. I would beg for money and food to make teh trip possible.

Sure but trading PK right now would mean the team receiving him would need to grossly overpay, to an extent that I feel Nail alone would not cut it. Habs major weakness right now is on D, where they have alot of bottom pairing guys, but few top pairing guys, for the Habs to trade their #1 D, alot would have to come back.

Felicitations to one of my boyhood idols.
This post reminds me of playing hockey in the 70s, where every kid in the neighbourhood would emulate Ken’s trademark pose: resting with his blocker propped up by his goalie stick which was angled to its maximum possible height.
All my best to the “four-story goalie”, a man of integrity, intelligence and class.
65 never looked so good.

I did not have the chance to see Dryden play, having to do with not being born yet, but I read his book and it was a wonderful forray into a world I did not know of, even today’s hockey must differ greatly from it, and his style made it all the more interesting.
Have a great one Mister Dryden!

He was very good. If you think Halak, Price, Huet, Theodore was a topic of discussion you should have heard Vachon, Esposito, Dryden, Myre, and the prevailing theory that Ernie Wakley was better than them all 🙂

Michel “Bunny” Laroque was Drydens backup in the mid to late 70s and was often shaky. My favorite line from The Game is when one of the players arrives to the locker room and asks another who’s playing in nets tonight and the answer is: Take a wild guess. Bunny is in the shitter puking and Dryden hasn’t shut up since he got here.

“It’s a moo point. Like a cow’s opinion, it doesn’t matter. It’s moo.”

The lady on the phone said “Are you with habs inside out summit? Yes? With your booking, your first night’s stay is non-refundable. Of course, if the game is canceled, you will be fully reimbursed.” it was cute.

do you know how often I am back on the old thread, clicking refresh, waiting for new comments, only to find out everyone is in a new thread? It happens a lot… not that the content is ever much different.

The Game is simply the best book about an NHL team I have ever read (3 or 4 times over the years, especially when the newer soon to be an also-ran book is published). It is articulate and to the point. It give you a look inside the head of the premier goalie of his time. Dryden demonstrated that a player could write a book that gives the reader the experience of what it was like to be a member of the Dynasty era Habs.