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Hi guys, how are you? Im currently in Afghanistan, so no chance to play Memoir on board, maybe I will met somebody in online arena. As Im here, I started thinking about a little bit more complex and not so abstract WW II based board games. I saw Conflict of Heroes, it looks very interesting so Im trying to find out some more. Its not actually so hard to find these games, but I would like to know your opinions, experiences etc. about concrete games which one you played and are familiar to you. Thanks for reading and your opinions.

I have the original Axis and Allies board game, as well as Axis and Allies 1942. These are much larger in scope and take a lot longer to play. I also have Axis and Allies miniatures, which I've only played a couple of times. This works well for small skirmishes. I've played Tide of Iron once, and have wanted this one. It is slightly more complex than M44 and has more detail in the number of units and miniatures. I also have my own set of rules for 1:144 armor that I have bought at toy stores. All in all, Memoir is my favorite!

I have all the Conflict of Heroes releases and they are great squad level game, with detailed historically accurate units. CoH is a step up from something like Advanced Squad Leader in my opinion, with nicer components, easier to learn rules, and about same level of detail (IMO).

So when I want something less abstract than Memoir '44 and I don't want to deal with tiny little cardboard counters on flimsy paper maps and over complex rules, I play CoH.

Now, CoH has counters, but they are large 1" square and each one models in detail either a type of infantry squad (riles, light machine guns, mortars), armour (nearly every type of tank and armoured vehicle), and artillery (same detail). The details modeled are firepower (against soft targets and armour), defensive rating (front and flank), movement, range, and so on.

The biggest drawback to CoH is the lack of a vibrant community of players creating new scenarios. There are about 15 scenarios per major release, so that's about 45 scenarios in the 3 major releases of CoH. There are a handful of player created scenarios. But the scenarios can take hours to play, so I have plenty of play left.

Other caveats: Each release has a set of geomorphic maps, so it lacks the flexibility of Memoir '44 (which allows basically any map configuration). The counters are very country-specific so its not possible to say use the existing counters and create a western front scenario, because so far we have only Russian, German, and Polish counters.

But this is the best squad level game I found when I was researching such a game to supplement Memoir '44. The components are beautiful, but you pay for it in price.

I've played some of the games mentioned here; came to Memoir after A&A Minis, which had a pretty active community, did a massive redesign that antiquated most of my collection and I've never looked back.

I was disappointed in ToI, although the models with it are great.

I have to agree that what really sets this game apart is the community here, and the flexibility that DoW gives you in terms of being able to design and post scenarios. All you have to do is look at the back of the scenario book that comes with the equipment pack to see how community members are actually involved in playing, testing, and designing...and you never know when Richard Borg is going to pop in with his two cents.

I recently looked into the Combat Commander series, e.g., "Combat Commander: Europe", after I heard some good things about it. I haven't played it but was considering it as an alternative to Conflict of Heroes.

What turned me off was it only covered infantry tactics, meaning no armor or arty units. Also the components were not as nice, with thin paper maps and lower quality counters.

I'm not bored enough with Memoir '44 of CoH to venture into a third gaming system. But I keep looking, so I'd like to hear about other games as well.

I have a collection of older WWII games from Avalon Hill such as Afrika Korps, Anzio, Guadalcanal, D-Day, and Third Reich, but I don't play them much, and I don't think many people want to explore these older titles.

I love to play games! So I never am able to just pick one game and play it exclusively.
I am currently learning Tide of Iron, Invasion: Sicily by GMT, Combat Commander Europe and Yes I do play the old Avalon Hill/ Victory Games/ SPI games like Up Front, Panzer Leader, Victory in the Pacific I can keep going

Of those games, which one is your favorite (second to Memoir '44, of course!!)?

Well If I had to pick one it would have to be Up Front!
A great card based WW2 game by Avalon Hill also available on Vaasal
I just read that Valley Games just picked up the rights and will be bringing back Up Front with modern graphics and updated rules!!

Advanced Squad Leader was also one of my passions and just recently started playing a game with my sons called Munchkin by Steve Jackson games a humorous take on the old Dungeons and Dragons.

I have tried a few sqaud based games such as combat commander, band of brothers, tide of iron and conflict of heroes.

All the games above I have enjoyed to some degree, although I found CoH to be a bit flat, didnt get that great feeling after finishing a game.

But I came across lock n load (band of heroes) and I really love how the game works. I must admit the rule book isnt as well written as some out there but I was able to pick it up pretty easily. (If you go to the lock n load website you can print out a demo of the game, it gives you the map, the counters for the scenario and all the rules you need to play that scenario. You just use infantry in the demo sceanrio, so there are no vehicle rules until you read the main rule set, but it gives a taste of the system.
I have picked up a number of titles from this series, the core rules apply to the lnl games set in ww2, vietnam and (fictional) cold war so once you have read the core rules from one of them you know the rules for all of them. Anyway I have found it to be the most enjoyable sqaud level game I have played

Lock n load and memoir 44 are the 2 games that seem to hit the table with my gameing group.

Thank you guys for all comments, especially the detail inside views to CoH and Lock and Load. Im still looking, here is list of what I found and interested me:
Tide of Iron - looks nice, but the variability of units looks too small, lack deepness
Lock and Load - Band of Heroes: I must explore this one more
Advanced Squad Leader: looks too much hardcore, 3 hours for game are too much
Conflict of Heroes: my favourite yet, nicely maded, variety of units
Combat Commander - Europe: only infantry, so its out of the game

Axis and Allies is not what Im looking for but No Retreat! The Russian Front and EastFront II looks really great. Any experiences with these two?

Thank you guys for all comments, especially the detail inside views to CoH and Lock and Load. Im still looking, here is list of what I found and interested me:
Tide of Iron - looks nice, but the variability of units looks too small, lack deepness
Lock and Load - Band of Heroes: I must explore this one more
Advanced Squad Leader: looks too much hardcore, 3 hours for game are too much
Conflict of Heroes: my favourite yet, nicely maded, variety of units
Combat Commander - Europe: only infantry, so its out of the game

Axis and Allies is not what Im looking for but No Retreat! The Russian Front and EastFront II looks really great. Any experiences with these two?

Not WW II based, but World at War seties looks fine too. Cold War.

I have all the games that you have listed.

Tide of Iron: is deeper than memoir 44, but is more on a tactical level focusing on squad / platoon level where memoir is normally representing larger formations. ToI although deeper than memoir is more seen as a next step up from memoir so not that complex (although seeing the rule book for the first time you might think otherwise, it is abnormally long compared to other games that are a bit more complext than ToI. The rules do need to be updated and explained a bit better too) I have found ToI to be a good game but personally I would not recommend it due to the terrible support it is given by FFG, the game and its expansions have been out for years now yet there are many errors that havent been cleared up yet, and the latest expansion (has been out for nearly 2 years) has many scenarios that are unplable as written.

Lock n Load: Well i think i have explained this one in my last post, I love the system its my fav of squad level games atm. (just one thing if you look at this on Board game geek ignore the images of the maps with all the white outlines on the hexes, the game is in its second edition and they have removed all the white outlines making the boards look much better)

ASL: For me this game just takes up too much time and I havent learnt the whole system. To me it seems like you need to commit your self to this game only and not play anything else.

CoH: I was very excited to try this one after seeing what it had to offer, the rules were very easy to understand and were written and set out very well. But to me I just found the game play left me feeling flat. I found the scenarios felt more like puzzles, with the solo scenarios once I worked out "the puzzle" it was nearly impossible to not win. I also found this with the attacker vs defender type scenarios in the 2 player scenarios.

Combat Commander: Although this game only focuses on infantry I found it to be a exciting game. Again the rules are set out well and easy to learn. The game play although using cards to drive the game work differntly to the cards in memoir. I have found that due to the randomness of events in the game things on the battlefeild can change very quickly, you think things are going one way then bam the situation can change very quickly (I find the event work very well in this game). I would prefer to play CC even though its inf only over CoH.

No retreat: I like this game it is differnt to the others due to that is more a stratigic game focusing on army groups and fronts (100,000 - 200,000 men) You can play a short scenario just focusing on one section on the east war or you can play the campign playing through all the parts from 1941-1945.

Thank you for that great overview and short review of each of those games. In the end I suspect that I have so much time, energy and enjoyment locked into Memoir '44 that I won't be branching out any time soon, but you never know.

At least now I know a little more about some of the options out there and I can make a more educated choice if I decide I want to. Thanks again!

I recommend taking a look at Sergeants Miniatures Game. It is a combination of minis/board/card game. It is card driven like Memoir 44, but with a little more depth. It is a miniatures game, but the figures come prepainted and to a very nice level. The game is relatively new, about a year old. The base game, Day of Days gives a good intro into the game system. Over all, there is a fair $ investment when it comes to expansion additional troops ect. But for small unit action, it's very cool.

I recommend taking a look at Sergeants Miniatures Game. It is a combination of minis/board/card game. It is card driven like Memoir 44, but with a little more depth. It is a miniatures game, but the figures come prepainted and to a very nice level. The game is relatively new, about a year old. The base game, Day of Days gives a good intro into the game system. Over all, there is a fair $ investment when it comes to expansion additional troops ect. But for small unit action, it's very cool.

I'm afraid the idea of a 'miniatures' game doesn't appeal to me because the cost seems like it would grow so quickly. That's one of the things I love about Memoir '44 (especially with the Equipment Pack, now)...you get great figures for an affordable cost.

If I look around for another war game, I think for me, it'll have to be similar to Memoir '44 in that area. But that's just me.

I own cc pacific and it is a very good game. It is more complex than Memoir, but it has a brilliant rulebook so it isn't hard to play.

My friends, all casual gamers who enjoy Memoir, feels that Combat Commander is a bit to complex for their level and frequency of play.

Scenarios doesn't have a predefined setup like Memoir, and that ups the learning curve a bit for newbies. A bad setup makes it hard to win.

The game comes with 12 scenarios and 12 maps . There is also an expansion available and 2 scenarios came in C3i#25. The game, as Does all cc games, comes with a very good Random Scenario Generator that creates good balanced scenarios. So replayability is virtually endless.

I don't miss tanks when I play it, but if you are desperate for tanks, Battle pack 5 (europe) has tanks. (It is on P500 now)

Combat Commander Pacific is also a little less Random than it's Europe cousin, but things happening and the tide can change in a heartbeat.

Pacific is a good follow up from Memoir if you enjoy the Pacific theater.

I tried D-Day Dice and found it ok when it was free to play, and there is still a free trial version on bgg. Check it out to see if it is something for you.

No Retreat: The Russians Front is a Very good strategic game on the Eastern Front. It is complex, but plays quickly, as the intention of the design was.
If you want a strategic Eastern front game, you won't be dissapointed.
5 shorter scenarios that roughly covers a year each. Plays in a couple of hours.
Also has a campaign game(the whole thing) and aa tournament scenario.
There are also two shorter scenarios available on Moscow and Ukraine.

I have the GMT version and that also included a code to download solitaire rules from victory point games, but GMT wil release it's own version of the solitaire rules in the next C3i issue.

The designer of No Retreat is very active on bgg and is often the first to reply to rules questions.
Rules are downloadable from GMT if you want to take a look.

Another tactical game that has gotten fine reviews on bgg is Band of Brothers by Worthington Games. I haven't tried it myself.
It is currently scheduled for re- release later this year after selling out, and the first expansion will be released at the same time.

I'm afraid the idea of a 'miniatures' game doesn't appeal to me because the cost seems like it would grow so quickly. That's one of the things I love about Memoir '44 (especially with the Equipment Pack, now)...you get great figures for an affordable cost.

If I look around for another war game, I think for me, it'll have to be similar to Memoir '44 in that area. But that's just me.

I'm afraid the idea of a 'miniatures' game doesn't appeal to me because the cost seems like it would grow so quickly. That's one of the things I love about Memoir '44 (especially with the Equipment Pack, now)...you get great figures for an affordable cost.

If I look around for another war game, I think for me, it'll have to be similar to Memoir '44 in that area. But that's just me.

I agree with you on this one. I have never collected any miniatures games for this reason. One thing I did however, was to buy those 1:144 scale tanks Walmart was selling in their stores some years ago. They went on clearance some years ago, and were selling for under a couple of bucks for a pre-painted tank mini in a plastic box. New millennial toys was the brand name. I have about 20 of those plastic tanks, and I found some 1:144 men at a hobby shop and painted and mounted those. I made my own rules for a quick to play, skirmish type game. I like this second to Memoir, and I like the old Axis and Allies board games even though they take an entire afternoon to play.

Oh yeah. I remember looking at the Matrix game version some time ago. I may have actually ordered that game or I was thinking about it. I better check that pile of video games on my desk if I can clear away the garbage.

But I didn't know about the board game, which looks interesting. On the surface is looks something like Fields of Fire, with the cards and solitaire scenarios.

Oh, and did you know that Conflict of Heroes has a video game made by Matrix games. I ordered that as well, but haven't played it yet. Gotta clear that desk! Here's a link:

Great debate, guys, thanks for your opinions. I checked the games I was interested in and all others. After all I decided that Conflict of Heroes is what Im looking for, so I will wait till November when 2nd edition of Awakening the Bear will be released.

Great debate, guys, thanks for your opinions. I checked the games I was interested in and all others. After all I decided that Conflict of Heroes is what Im looking for, so I will wait till November when 2nd edition of Awakening the Bear will be released.

Be sure to pre-order and you get some extra goodies like the bonus counter sheet and the Butterfield solo module.

I know about this opportunity, it looks that I will pre-order it. Anyway I decided to order Storm of Steel (second game from this system) too. But there is a problem that this game is out of print and I have a problem to find online shop with this game. Does anybody know about some? Preferably in Europe. If so, please post me a link. Thank you.

I know about this opportunity, it looks that I will pre-order it. Anyway I decided to order Storm of Steel (second game from this system) too. But there is a problem that this game is out of print and I have a problem to find online shop with this game. Does anybody know about some? Preferably in Europe. If so, please post me a link. Thank you.

I'm afraid the idea of a 'miniatures' game doesn't appeal to me because the cost seems like it would grow so quickly. That's one of the things I love about Memoir '44 (especially with the Equipment Pack, now)...you get great figures for an affordable cost.

If I look around for another war game, I think for me, it'll have to be similar to Memoir '44 in that area. But that's just me.

I agree on the cost issue, although I have a lot of $$$ invested in M'44 too. M'44 is one of my favorites, but minis gaming is a multi-hobby, collecting-building-painting-playing. Plus you don't get to see things like this in m'44:

note the Tiger leaving the village in the background as the US infantry cross the hedgerows in the foreground