I also have a tomme in process(goat milk) I am wondering if you want to make a Tomme aux herbes, when would you add the herbs so that they stick, and then i guess you would forgo washing the rind??? or are the herbes presssed in somehow after the rind has been treated a bit? Also what is the deal with "bagging" the cheese? I see that Francoise brought that up with the Drunken Goat, in the new book O @00 easy cheeses... ther is the recipe which I hav just made, but no mention of bagging it,, comments most appreciated!!

Depends on what you're trying to achieve, like Francois said. I will add that if you want to embed the herbs in the outer rind, then they need to be pressed into the rind before the cheese acidifies too much. This is what I think Francois means by "being careful with it" In other words, herb while the cheese is still sticky. A good point to do this is after flipping the cheese 3-4 times... so an hour or two in the mold. Take the wheel out like you would for a flip and roll in herbs or sprinkle them on, and put back in the mold. If you wait too long, the rind will acidify and not be sticky enough, and you will need to use mechanical advantage to force the herbs into the rind, vs using mechanical and chemical advantage by herbing early on.

Logged

Taking an extended leave (until 2015) from the forums to build out my farm and dairy. Please e-mail or PM if you need anything.

Thanks ..so my thought is that you would mix salt in with the herbs seeing that brining with herbs on , well, obviously would not work...... I would guess the salt amount would be sort of high as the brine solutions is high..... I may try this today. Missy

OK ...next stage; I am now facing a beautiful week-old Tomme, maturing in my wine fridge at 65. It's very dry outside and I have about 50%RH in the thing so I oiled it and put it in a closed aging box.

It's rather naked and I think it's time to build a rind on it. I am already washing the other one in Ale so I don't want to beer wash this one. Instead, I am trying to decide between the following:- just oil and vacuum pack it for 3 months (soft rind I know)- Wax it (not a big fan, this isn't a cheddar or gouda)- Make bacterial wash with what I have: Mix simple brine (light kosher salt, CalCl vinegar) with a pinch of PLA (because of the funky smell and b.linens in it) and Geo 17 - will this work?- Make non-bacterial wash with what I have, light brine with a nice gamy and quite funky Cote du Rhone wine that I have. I can wash it, or brine with it for 24 hour, dry it off and then vacuum.

I am following the brine recipe in 200 cheese currently , on my first tomme, today is my 2nd washing. my second one is still just sitting for this first week. today I will start the 3rd one, I want to do the herb thing but am not sure about salting with the herbs If I were yo I'd try the cotes du rhone idea as you haven't done that yet. I was thinking of trying that with some blueberry wine for local flavor. how did your crottin come out??

OK ...next stage; I am now facing a beautiful week-old Tomme, maturing in my wine fridge at 65. It's very dry outside and I have about 50%RH in the thing so I oiled it and put it in a closed aging box.

It's rather naked and I think it's time to build a rind on it. I am already washing the other one in Ale so I don't want to beer wash this one. Instead, I am trying to decide between the following:- just oil and vacuum pack it for 3 months (soft rind I know)- Wax it (not a big fan, this isn't a cheddar or gouda)- Make bacterial wash with what I have: Mix simple brine (light kosher salt, CalCl vinegar) with a pinch of PLA (because of the funky smell and b.linens in it) and Geo 17 - will this work?- Make non-bacterial wash with what I have, light brine with a nice gamy and quite funky Cote du Rhone wine that I have. I can wash it, or brine with it for 24 hour, dry it off and then vacuum.

Which would you do?

I wouldn't have oiled it. At 1 week there is still a lot of flux through the rind and you will encourage parastic yeasts keeping the moisture from being expelled.

Don't mean to sound harsh because a decision made out of an abundance of caution is praiseworthy, but scientifically, there has never been a documented case of an aged, raw milk cheese that has sickened anyone, pregnant or not. Even in current pediatrics and gynecology science, the "no soft cheese while pregnant" mantra is slowly changing to one more in line with studies. Which is, that any cheese from raw milk should be avoided before 60 days of aging, and that in general, for extra caution, washed-rind, smear rind, and mold cheeses should be avoided, even if pasteurized, just in case.

So with that in mind, it's perfectly fine to pasteurize your milk . Cheese will come out very similar. And in this case, you may also want to vac pac and not do a natural rind.

The rennet amount was not correct, sorry. I typed too quickly. I don't cook by strict recipes very much, or with teaspoon measures, it's more like "x grams culture per hundredweight milk, x grams salt per y grams cheese" etc. So it is .4 ml per gallon of double strength rennet. .8 for 2 gallons. Or, and I added this, 4-5 ml double strength per hundredweight milk.

Another way to look at it is to check for floc target. The floc target for this cheese is 12-13 mins using summer milk. 14 is OK. 10 is too low. If that happens, use less rennet next time. Sorry I can't be more exact, milks are so different. I adjust floc times and multipliers with the season, too, so what I just wrote is more of a guide.

Logged

Taking an extended leave (until 2015) from the forums to build out my farm and dairy. Please e-mail or PM if you need anything.

I agree with Francois. I oil more as a rind treatment, to prevent excess evaporation, or as a way to apply a spice. In this case, I keep RH on the lower side, in the high 80s, to discourage molds, and first wash with a brine to build up the rind to a good level and let the cheese stabilize. Then after the cheese stabilizes, I will brush some oil on, or brush a spice/oil mix on. It takes 3-4 weeks for the cheeses to stabilize enough to my liking. One other way to tell is that you wash with brine at first, and will get some mold. But then the new molds stop trying to actively start colonies on the rind. At that point, the rind is about ready.

Logged

Taking an extended leave (until 2015) from the forums to build out my farm and dairy. Please e-mail or PM if you need anything.

Another way to look at it is to check for floc target. The floc target for this cheese is 12-13 mins using summer milk. 14 is OK. 10 is too low. If that happens, use less rennet next time. Sorry I can't be more exact, milks are so different. I adjust floc times and multipliers with the season, too, so what I just wrote is more of a guide.

Thank you for the additional details. That is about 1/6 teaspoon for 2 gallons of milk - a bit less than some harder cheeses.

About the floc time, I haven't got the hang of that yet. I've read about it tons of times, but somehow putting a bowl on top of a two gallon pot of milk doesn't work out. I think I need someone to show me. The two local cheese makers I know don't use floc time, so I haven't seen someone do it.

You don't necessarily need a bowl. Anything that floats will do. Washed and sanitized empty yogurt cup, a piece of sanitized wood, tupperware, etc. You push it or spin it once in a while, and when you push and it doesn't go, that's when the surface of the milk has gelled over.

Wayne posted a nice video of what this looks like. Check out around 4:00-4:30

Thank you very much for the video showing the floc. I can certainly do that.

What do you think I should use for my rind? On hand, I have geo 13, corneybacteria, kl71 and penicillin candidum. From looking at the ingredients of PLA, I assume I should use the b linens and geo. I see the Micodore, Mycoderm and Micrococci on glenn garry, but they are rather pricey.

Well, the classic tomme types in the pyrenees are mycodore and mycoderm variants, often with other natural yeasts. You can try to reproduce them, but they are minor adjuncts to the mycodore/mycoderm combo. For example, the adjuncts are geo, debromyces/klyuveromyces, and micrococci like arthrobacter and staphylococcus. All these adjuncts are really just for flavor nuanceing and for rind neutralization, and to feed the other yeasts/molds.

When you get into PLA, you get into the smear cheese category, meaning b linens. A b linens is not a bad choice per se for a tomme base, but it will make a stinky type cheese. B linens is physically sticky on the rind for it to grow, which you can mitigate by killing it with a lower humidity and then waiting for the rind to stabilize and dry up a little. If you use a geo as the yeast and then b linens, and wash it, you're making a brick cheese variant. It becomes basically straight b linens, which can be a cool rind if you manage it and lower the humidity so the b linens dies off and hardens.

In your case, I would try for a first cheese with a washed rind to not use an inoculant to build up your confidence. Use a brush and brine for mold maintenance and to create a presentable appearance, and let the cheese age. It will not form a complex rind, but it will be a good cheese. Then if you want to change it up a little, wash with a beer for the next batch. Then try a b linens/geo combo for 2-3 weeks, and lower the humidity and temp so it ages slowly. Or try a geo/p candidum combo, like you would for a brie, but wash with a light brine, then kill off with a heavy brine, and then let it age, washing and brushing when necessary. This will introduce just a little proteolytic enzymes from the candidum, and it will penetrate the cheese in time to give it a subtlety.

IMHO, with a tomme, less is more. The milk should come through, and so should a slight earthiness and the rind should be interesting in color, but not thick. The rest is about the cheese... moderately firm body, nutty, slightly buttery goodness. Excellent milk, a constant humidity and temp will do more for a tomme than the rind, IMHO.

Re: using thermo C and MM100, that is not a bad substitution, but I think your ratios will be off in comparison with 4001. And I'm not sure you need the extra LH. And, from what I recall, doesn't MM100 produce a lot more diacetyl than straight 4001? I'd rather use Kazu than the MM100 if I was trying to keep a similar profile. But the cheese should be fine with MM100 and a pinch of Thermo C.

« Last Edit: March 29, 2010, 09:29:58 PM by linuxboy »

Logged

Taking an extended leave (until 2015) from the forums to build out my farm and dairy. Please e-mail or PM if you need anything.

Great thread on making a Tomme - unfortunately,I have been unsuccessful so far :'(

The problem I am having is that the curd simply does not matt well, or rather, it practically falls apart. Now, I am not entirely sure as to why, but my suspicion is that my PH drops too low and this is why I want to quickly clarify something:

@linuxboy, you mention a 0.02 drop in PH before adding rennet, however, other users mention 0.2 drop in later responses and you never correct them, so I assume 0.2 is correct? However, it takes nearly 90 minutes for me to register a 0.2 drop. I then add rennet amount as recommended, flocculation occurs somewhere at the 9-10 minute mark ... for some strange reason though, the curd won't cut clean until 2.5 hours later. This was the first batch, opn the second try I cut after 45minutes (which is still a 4-5 multiplier) and it sure wasn't a clean cut. Nonetheless, the curd firmed up and became rice size as I stirred and heated. What worries me is that my PH had dropped to 5.79 by the time I reached temp and started draining ... by the time all curd was in the mold I was at 5.2 - I can hardly flip the cheese without it crumbling part :'(

So, I suppose, the issue here is too low a ph? and if so, should I not wait for a 0.2, but indeed a 0.02 drop initially? Here are a few other facts about what I am doing: mix of goat and cow milk which I pasteurize 30 min at 63C. I do add calcium once temp is at 88F and PH at that point 6.62

@linuxboy, I was also wondering you mention "drain under whey" ... I am not quite sure what that means? Do you mean press under whey? As from what I gather, you have already drained the whey, no?

Sorry, I don't always catch things. No, .2 drop is huge. It should be minimal, just a few ticks, .01-.03 or so. This isn't even really necessary. It's only to check and see to make sure the culture is working.

90 minutes is way, way, way too long. It should be 30, maybe 45 mins from adding the DVI culture. Especially for this recipe, with a 1-2 gal size, that amount of culture I listed at 1/4 tsp is a tad overkill.

Your floc target seems okay, maybe a little too short. Tommes should be closer to 15 mins. Just a personal preference of mine lately. I've been decreasing the rennet amount to try and develop a slower, more gentle maturation. It's closer to how it's done in Basque and the Pyrenees and other tomme regions.

When you say cut clean, what do you mean? The whole notion that was started with the 60s-70s era idea of a "clean break" is wrong. It doesn't tell you anything. If my milk is truly excellent, I can get a clean cut at a 1-2x multiplier. If it is not, what is called a clean cut sometimes takes a 6x or an 8x. When using raw goat milk from Nigerians or crosses, all that extra fat (sometimes 12% fat) and protein makes the whole clean cut discussion irrelevant. I've gotten a clean cut at floc before because the curd was that strong. Anyway, that's me on my soap box, sorry.

If you do not get a clean break at the right multiplier, it is your milk quality. Try adding some more CaCl2. How much are you adding now? Also try for a longer healing time, say 15 mins instead of 5. This gives the curd a chance to firm up. Another strategy is to first cut into large pieces, 2" big, let that heal for 15 mins, and then go over with a whisk to finish.

From your description, you are using too much culture, and also waiting too long. .01 or .02 drop is fine, or just wait 30 mins and then start. All you're trying to do is wake up the bacteria, which takes about 30 mins.

By drain under whey, I meant settle under whey/press under whey. Curds expel whey even when in the whey, so they do drain. It was poor word choice on my part. When I talk about draining the whey earlier in the recipe, I didn't mean all of the whey. What you do is stir, and then when the curd mass has shrunk enough, pour off most of the whey, except leave 2-4" on top of the curd pack that has settled. And let those curds settle some more, covered by the whey, and press with your hand to let them mat together in the warm whey.

Logged

Taking an extended leave (until 2015) from the forums to build out my farm and dairy. Please e-mail or PM if you need anything.