Let's assume for the moment that everything you guys say about the ratings is true. Does anybody then know why JLU was canceled? Dwayne McDuffie posted the ratings for the first few episodes of season three on his website and it was the highest rated show on Cartoon Network even with ZERO promotion. Not to mention it had a still successful toyline at retail. ANY clues?

Let's assume for the moment that everything you guys say about the ratings is true. Does anybody then know why JLU was canceled? Dwayne McDuffie posted the ratings for the first few episodes of season three on his website and it was the highest rated show on Cartoon Network even with ZERO promotion. Not to mention it had a still successful toyline at retail. ANY clues?

Most Cartoons are considered "complete" at the 65 episode mark. Dunno why, it just is. Probably has to do with kids being able to watch the same episode ad nauseam. Brave & the Bold got their 65 episodes and was canceled regardless of ratings. As were the Teen Titans. Justice League actually got 91 episodes, but because the first two seasons were mostly two-parters... you have to divide those 52 episodes by 2, which equals 26. Plus, the 39 from JLU... and TA-DAH!!! There's that magic number... 65.

Nice showing of your Google skills I guess but that has nothing to do with what I said and that is DC needs to fix their movie problem in order to do better in the action figure isle basically.

And WWE Raw now is more like 5's. Guess they are smelling what the Rock is cooking. Even so you are comparing apples and oranges. I think comparing Young Justice to other cartoons like Avengers EMH and Ultimate Spider-man would be a better comparison but DXD data is notorious for being hard to find and I'm pretty busy today. Unlike Young Justice the Avengers brand seems to be continuing w/o a toy line so how is THAT possible? Hmmmm....weird if they need both.

Nielson with all of the other options for watching TV these days, iTunes, Netflix, etc is outdated as a sampling method imo anyway. I will say it's interesting that SW Clone Wars is doing as crappy as YJ and GL seem to be doing. 1.4 historically is NOT a good rating.

And Dusty, it wouldn't even be a contest

_________________“The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.” Thomas Jefferson

Unlike Young Justice the Avengers brand seems to be continuing w/o a toy line so how is THAT possible?

The Avengers Cartoon is continuing but not in the original format (and there was no real marketing as such (and look it only made it two seasons) , it is being altered to reflect the characterizations of the movies-- I believe Wasp and Black Panther is out and Black Widow is back in- if you notice the Avengers logos are trying to be centralized between the Cartoon and the Movie (and the Avengers Assemble logo linking the individual movies to this as well)-- so Disney in this situation considers any toy out their as tied to that show... Your comparison is way off base-

Wolverine and the X-Men also shoots down your argument-- toy line did not do well-- no marketing -- and it went away after one season- despite being one of the best cartoons produced (although you could have the disney arguement with this)--

G.I Joe Renegades-- same scenario, I dont believe the resculpted toy line did as well as expected-- so no real fight when they killed the show because of the different movie concepts..

MOTUC 200X - might be another example as well -- Mattel kept shoving repacks and redecos down everyone's throat, once figures sat on pegs-- show got cancelled.

THundercats- toy line not selling- no merchandising - cancelled

Clone Wars- down to 14 figures a year (most repacks)-- show gets cancelled..

Im sure we can find multiple cases either way-- but usually if a super hero show has a failed toy line and does bad-- it goes out the window-- its just the case-(I will accept there might be other reasons beyond just the toys in all of these situations-- but it is normally the largest contributing factor..)

_________________Fastest know derailer of threads in the know universe...expanded or otherwise.

but that has nothing to do with what I said and that is DC needs to fix their movie problem in order to do better in the action figure isle basically.

Well, I already argued that blockbuster movies don't necessarily translate into toy sales by showing how some of the top grossing movies of all time had toy lines that didn't generate a lot of sales. But I guess it's too much to ask for you to make an informed comment, or at the very least, follow an argument from it's origins. You know... as opposed to where "you came in."

ian5555 wrote:

And WWE Raw now is more like 5's. Guess they are smelling what the Rock is cooking. Even so you are comparing apples and oranges.

Not really. In fact, it's called perspective. Raw is considered the Top Show on Cable, so giving out their ratings helps a lot of people understand how high the bar is set. Plus, seeing how Young Justice's ratings are as good as Smackdown's, brings a smile to my face. The fact that they blow WWE out of the water on Saturday Mornings is the icing on the cake.

ian5555 wrote:

I think comparing Young Justice to other cartoons like Avengers EMH and Ultimate Spider-man would be a better comparison but DXD data is notorious for being hard to find and I'm pretty busy today. Unlike Young Justice the Avengers brand seems to be continuing w/o a toy line so how is THAT possible? Hmmmm....weird if they need both.

BWAH!-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHa!!! Didn't you hear?!?!?!? Avengers EMH was canceled last year!!!!!!! The new show will have a toy line and the Ultimate Spidey show, already has a toy line! Oopps!!!

ian5555 wrote:

Nielson with all of the other options for watching TV these days, iTunes, Netflix, etc is outdated as a sampling method imo anyway. I will say it's interesting that SW Clone Wars is doing as crappy as YJ and GL seem to be doing. 1.4 historically is NOT a good rating.

MMmmm... I wonder if those articulated Hasbro Clone Wars plastic thingies have anything to do with supplementing that shows income.

ian5555 wrote:

And Dusty, it wouldn't even be a contest

I know. People are going to eventually get tired of Ricky "Macho Man" Savage always beating poor Ian "The Brooklyn Brawler" 5555. I need decent competition! (Just not too decent!)

Clone Wars- down to 14 figures a year (most repacks)-- show gets cancelled..

All bets are off with anything Star Wars now that it's a Disney proprty. The Lucas Film/Seth Green project Detours is 'on hold indefinitely,' Clone Wars is canceled (as Disney wants to builda franchise based on their up-coming projects as opposed to the LucasFilms' prequel properties) and the 6th season won't be broadcast (their contract with Cartoon Network is gone), but individual Clone Wars arcs will be produced as a proper finale to the series (according to the latest rumor mill news).

Most Cartoons are considered "complete" at the 65 episode mark. Dunno why, it just is.

Typically, it's because of syndication. Originally the bar was set at 52 (one rerun per week for a year, or four 13-episode seasons), but it does seem to have crept up a bit (65=5 13-episode seasons). Probably because weekly airings are fairly unusual now -- most shows are rerun a couple of times a day.

Syndication is where the real money is. The show has typically covered its costs, and now the studio can collect almost pure profit from it. Cartoons are particularly fertile because they don't get dated as easily as live-action (clothes, technology like computers and cellphones, etc.). You may notice (or you may not, if you don't have a 10-year-old daughter like me) that Nick and Disney tween comedies, like iCarly, are rerun intensely during and shortly after their runs, and then they disappear (Lizzie McGuire who?). They get dated too fast. Period pieces like M*A*S*H are evergreen -- they almost CAN'T get dated.

This is why the old Warner Brothers cartoons (Bugs Bunny and friends) are some of the most valuable media properties of the 20th and now 21st centuries. Even conservative estimates suggest they've earned many billions of dollars over the decades.

Unlike Young Justice the Avengers brand seems to be continuing w/o a toy line so how is THAT possible?

The Avengers Cartoon is continuing but not in the original format (and there was no real marketing as such (and look it only made it two seasons) , it is being altered to reflect the characterizations of the movies-- I believe Wasp and Black Panther is out and Black Widow is back in- if you notice the Avengers logos are trying to be centralized between the Cartoon and the Movie (and the Avengers Assemble logo linking the individual movies to this as well)-- so Disney in this situation considers any toy out their as tied to that show... Your comparison is way off base-

Wolverine and the X-Men also shoots down your argument-- toy line did not do well-- no marketing -- and it went away after one season- despite being one of the best cartoons produced (although you could have the disney arguement with this)--

G.I Joe Renegades-- same scenario, I dont believe the resculpted toy line did as well as expected-- so no real fight when they killed the show because of the different movie concepts..

MOTUC 200X - might be another example as well -- Mattel kept shoving repacks and redecos down everyone's throat, once figures sat on pegs-- show got cancelled.

THundercats- toy line not selling- no merchandising - cancelled

Clone Wars- down to 14 figures a year (most repacks)-- show gets cancelled..

Im sure we can find multiple cases either way-- but usually if a super hero show has a failed toy line and does bad-- it goes out the window-- its just the case-(I will accept there might be other reasons beyond just the toys in all of these situations-- but it is normally the largest contributing factor..)

Uhhh not sure why you are putting all that together as I never said a cartoon can succeed without a toyline. It's possible in my example because of the Avengers movie and the movie figures which is what I have been saying is the problem with DC all along. The movie figures are still on the shelves (and selling I might add) almost a year later. Why even make cartoon figures?

Avengers is not getting canceled so it didn't only make it 2 seasons. It is having some minor tweaks and is a continuation. Not quite exactly like JL to JLU but similiar.

I just disagree that the toyline killed YJ because the reverse could also be true that if the show was more popular more toys would sell. Have you seen some of the crappy toys of popular shows like Spongebob sell to kids? Timm can point the finger at Mattel and blame them all he wants. I really do not have a dog in this fight but you guys just refuse to accept the problem with the DC license and action figures is the lack of movies. Have you seen the action figure isle lately? It's all movie stuff for the most part.

I don't think any TV show is having a meeting slapping high fives with a 1.4 rating. You can bet on that LOL

_________________“The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.” Thomas Jefferson

Most Cartoons are considered "complete" at the 65 episode mark. Dunno why, it just is.

Typically, it's because of syndication. Originally the bar was set at 52 (one rerun per week for a year, or four 13-episode seasons), but it does seem to have crept up a bit (65=5 13-episode seasons). Probably because weekly airings are fairly unusual now -- most shows are rerun a couple of times a day.

Syndication is where the real money is. The show has typically covered its costs, and now the studio can collect almost pure profit from it. Cartoons are particularly fertile because they don't get dated as easily as live-action (clothes, technology like computers and cellphones, etc.). You may notice (or you may not, if you don't have a 10-year-old daughter like me) that Nick and Disney tween comedies, like iCarly, are rerun intensely during and shortly after their runs, and then they disappear (Lizzie McGuire who?). They get dated too fast. Period pieces like M*A*S*H are evergreen -- they almost CAN'T get dated.

This is why the old Warner Brothers cartoons (Bugs Bunny and friends) are some of the most valuable media properties of the 20th and now 21st centuries. Even conservative estimates suggest they've earned many billions of dollars over the decades.

But that's not what syndication is, is it? Isn't it selling the programs to a local TV station or a different cable network and that's where the money comes in? Cartoon Network rarely if ever does that (JLU going to Vortex is the only real example that comes to mind). Once CN hits the magic 65 number the show is almost always gone from the schedule no matter how popular it was when it aired. So I think the 65 episode "rule" is a bit outdated.

They actually do. BTAS, STAS, and Batman Beyond ran on The Hub, for example. And they license them, they don't sell them outright (which is probably what you mean). But you are right in that syndication isn't what it used to be, and I used the term pretty loosely.

I think with the conglomerates nowadays they don't have as many licensing outlets, so they tend to run them on sister stations (like Boomerang) and collect advertising revenue. For all I know The Hub may be part of Time Warner. They file the shows away for a while and then bring them out and start running them again. New kids start watching, and maybe their parents do, too, and advertisers pay. So rerunning them is probably more accurate than syndicating them. Nonetheless, it's still almost pure profit, other than some minor residuals that they may or may not pay to the creators, depending on their contracts.

And again, cartoons age very well, PARTICULARLY the Timmverse. Think about how clever BTAS, STAS, and even Batman Beyond were in their stylistic depictions of technology. BTAS is ostensibly set in the present, but it has that art deco look that gives it a sort of timeless feel. STAS did, too. They'll still be showing them 30 years from now. It's pure genius. Contrast them with the 90s X-men and Spider-man shows, or pretty much any other cartoon from the same time.

And just to clarify, yes, the 65 number is outdated. It's a holdover from the true syndication days. Nowadays there are many other outlets (DVD sales, streaming video) to make money, and you don't have an absolute number of episodes needed.

That's good and bad, I think. Sometimes, a show's run used to get extended just to hit the magic syndication number. Now I think they're more likely to pull the plug, and think, well, we'll sell the GL:TAS DVDs and make our money back that way.