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Re: John Sickels farm system rankings

Originally Posted by Bumstead

His range last season was similar to Votto's (Alonso RF/G 8.74; Votto RF/G 8.16). Where do you get the "on the bag glove issues?" Thin air? Or is there a real source? Everyone's range "could" get worse as they go...easy statement to make...source?

Bum

HIs range numbers might have been the same or similiar on paper but we know thats not true because Votto has much better foot speed and range than does Alonso. The on the bag glovework issues is admittedly a small sample size but every time I have seen the kid play he's misplayed a ball thrown to him at 1st, coincidence, perhaps but it didn't look like he had proper technique to begin with and he didn't seem to read the ball well either. He's reaching with his glove and not moving his feet/body to the ball. Like I said it's certainly fixable and I assume he'll do just that but until he does he hasn't. And no I'm no scout but I do understand proper technique and he doesn't have it.

"You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one."

Re: John Sickels farm system rankings

Originally Posted by lollipopcurve

Alonso is not considered a good defender. Not necessarily poor, but a bit shaky. Anybody see the televised AFL game where he whiffed on a couple throws (these were balls in the air, one a simple pickoff, not balls in the dirt)? Maybe the lighting was bad, I don't know, but you almost never see a 1B whiff on plays like that.

I never said he was above average. I said he was fine, which can mean: OK, defense is not a problem, he doesn't excel at it but he is fine, average.

Now you saw him miss a couple of balls one game, so he sucks and these other guys pull stuff out of the air that says he's not good and his range "could" decline as he gets older...as far as I know, he is an average defender and fielding at 1B will not keep him from playing at the MLB level. Nobody here has any source that would say anything different.

I once saw a ball go through Thomas Howard's legs...He caught the next one and we cheered and he laughed. I once saw Brett Boone drop a throw at 2B from the SS...I saw Larkin make an error...I once saw Alfonso Soriano make a diving catch...who cares? One day and a couple of plays don't define a player's defensive abilities.

Re: John Sickels farm system rankings

I once saw a ball go through Thomas Howard's legs...He caught the next one and we cheered and he laughed. I once saw Brett Boone drop a throw at 2B from the SS...I saw Larkin make an error...I once saw Alfonso Soriano make a diving catch...who cares? One day and a couple of plays don't define a player's defensive abilities.

Of course. Point being, these plays were so strikingly bad that I feel they're worth mentioning. He also got eaten up on a ball hit hard to his backhand side. Again, just one play in one game, but it was ugly.

So yes, he may be mediocre, or slightly worse. We might say that instead of flashing the leather, he's been flapping it.

"Baseball is a very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses." - Bob Castellini

Re: John Sickels farm system rankings

Originally Posted by Bumstead

I never said he was above average. I said he was fine, which can mean: OK, defense is not a problem, he doesn't excel at it but he is fine, average.

Now you saw him miss a couple of balls one game, so he sucks and these other guys pull stuff out of the air that says he's not good and his range "could" decline as he gets older...as far as I know, he is an average defender and fielding at 1B will not keep him from playing at the MLB level. Nobody here has any source that would say anything different.

I once saw a ball go through Thomas Howard's legs...He caught the next one and we cheered and he laughed. I once saw Brett Boone drop a throw at 2B from the SS...I saw Larkin make an error...I once saw Alfonso Soriano make a diving catch...who cares? One day and a couple of plays don't define a player's defensive abilities.

Re: John Sickels farm system rankings

His range last season was similar to Votto's (Alonso RF/G 8.74; Votto RF/G 8.16)

FWIW, Votto graded as a slightly below average defender last season by both UZR and Dewan's +/-....

"This isnít stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner

Re: John Sickels farm system rankings

Originally Posted by Bumstead

I never said he was above average. I said he was fine, which can mean: OK, defense is not a problem, he doesn't excel at it but he is fine, average.

Now you saw him miss a couple of balls one game, so he sucks and these other guys pull stuff out of the air that says he's not good and his range "could" decline as he gets older...as far as I know, he is an average defender and fielding at 1B will not keep him from playing at the MLB level. Nobody here has any source that would say anything different.

I once saw a ball go through Thomas Howard's legs...He caught the next one and we cheered and he laughed. I once saw Brett Boone drop a throw at 2B from the SS...I saw Larkin make an error...I once saw Alfonso Soriano make a diving catch...who cares? One day and a couple of plays don't define a player's defensive abilities.

Bum

Ok thanks for clearing that up because at first you said " a fine 1B" but what you meant to say was he is fine at 1st, to me that is two completely different things,

Re: John Sickels farm system rankings

If the majority of scouts and prospect sites have said he has "defensive issues," (i.e., slow afoot, glove issues, footwork issues, range issues, et al) would that work for you, Bumstead?

It would work for me if people on here also admitted that they were fixated on anything slightly negative about Alonso only because Votto is the current 1B. It's ridiculous. Anyone that wants to can play 1B at an average level. That's why he's in the minor leagues: to improve his defensive technique and refine his hitting. That's what the minor leagues are for. He's an excellent prospect whether y'all like it or not. None of these "sources" even hint that he might end up a DH at age 25...That's why I find it silly to compare him to DH-only type players. I never said he was great defensively, I said he was fine (which I un-necessarily had to define). I quoted the range numbers, which were immediately thrown out the window (the only real numbers or "sources" in the whole exchange).

So Scrap: point me to a respected source that even hints that Alonso will be a DH-only by the age of 25 and I will agree that the comparisons to Edgar Martinez and Travis Hafner are valid. Otherwise, they are silly comps and that was all I was saying from the beginning.

Re: John Sickels farm system rankings

Originally Posted by Bumstead

It would work for me if people on here also admitted that they were fixated on anything slightly negative about Alonso only because Votto is the current 1B. It's ridiculous. Anyone that wants to can play 1B at an average level. That's why he's in the minor leagues: to improve his defensive technique and refine his hitting. That's what the minor leagues are for. He's an excellent prospect whether y'all like it or not. None of these "sources" even hint that he might end up a DH at age 25...That's why I find it silly to compare him to DH-only type players. I never said he was great defensively, I said he was fine (which I un-necessarily had to define). I quoted the range numbers, which were immediately thrown out the window (the only real numbers or "sources" in the whole exchange).

So Scrap: point me to a respected source that even hints that Alonso will be a DH-only by the age of 25 and I will agree that the comparisons to Edgar Martinez and Travis Hafner are valid. Otherwise, they are silly comps and that was all I was saying from the beginning.

Bum

Wow relax, I see nothing wrong with someone saying a player has weaknesses if that said player does in fact have those weaknesses. In your first statement you said "A fine 1st baseman" that has a very different meaning than he is fine at first. I don't think you will find one person on this board who doesn't think Alonso is a fine prospect but some on this board get hook on the hype and think he is Albert Pujols right now.

Re: John Sickels farm system rankings

Originally Posted by Bumstead

also in response to Alonso = Edgar Martinez...

Alonzo is a fine 1B while both of these guys are atrocious in the field...how are these comparisons even arrived at?

Bum

From my perspective, as long as he hits like Hafner, I don't care if he fields like him. Good defense on a great hitting 1st baseman is like the pickle on a Chick-fil-a sandwich. It's great if the pickle's there, but I am still eating the heck out of that sandwich if it isn't.

Re: John Sickels farm system rankings

Alonso is an average defender at first base. Where the notion that he wasn't came from I still haven't figured out. Its almost as if because no one has said he is a plus defender at first that he is a terrible defender at first.

Re: John Sickels farm system rankings

Originally Posted by dougdirt

Alonso is an average defender at first base. Where the notion that he wasn't came from I still haven't figured out. Its almost as if because no one has said he is a plus defender at first that he is a terrible defender at first.

This! This was all I was asking...I apologize to those that did not understand what I was asking about Mr. Alonzo...

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