In article >, (Burian)
writes:
>I think Sam Stowe has confused my point. I'm not talking about>"regulating" English--and I'm certainly aware of, and appreciative of,
the
>way American English has taken all kinds of colorful paths, aided by the>input of the different cultures who live here.>>I'm talking about misusing words which already exist. Certainly, add new>words as times change, and throw archaic words back to the academics.
But
>don't take vibrant words and destroy them. To repeat the example I used>in my first message: the word "outrageous." What can we do with that
word
>anymore? Yet, it was once a wonderful word--strong and clear and very>specific. If an Academy could have saved it in some way, not by laying>down laws, but purely by presence, the way one person might face a mob
and
>say, do what you wish, but I will stand here and say, it is wrong--I'd>consider such an Academy a national treasure.>>Burian
How does "saving" language differ from "regulating" it? I haven't confused
your point. I just don't agree with it. Any kind of language academy for
the English language would be a joke and a waste of money.
Sam Stowe
"Amiguito, amiguito
soy yo de diablos juradores..."
-- Cervantes

In article >, ! says...
>George, Jews were always the first one to defend general human rights.>In the USA, when the civil right movement started, Jews were the first>ones to go down south and fight for black rights.
Granted, Jews are often at the forefront of condemning many injustices
in this world, even the first on behalf of Gentiles in some cases, and
kudos to all those good souls for that (even if blacks and Jews seem to
be having a bit of a problem in parts of NY lately, from reports I've
heard).
The end of the posting was really an expression of exasperation with
some Israelis (and their supporters abroad) who believe in the Jewish
*God given superiority* over all other humanoid life forms in Palestine.
What sick irony! Echoes of Nazism? Japanese fanaticism? What's the name
of that Israeli politician who calls Palestinians *cockroaches*?
God bless Rabin (and his ilk) and may he rest in peace (although the
struggle continues in earnest on the other side...)
--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * ARM Club * C=64..ICPUG * NW London CC

At 11:55 PM 8/15/96 -0400, Zoltan Szekely wrote:
>Joe:>> Was my political science prof part of>> an asymmetrical world-view conspiricy to push the Budapest school even>> into such provincial and bucolic places as UW? Seems highly implausible.>Nothing about conspiracy. You look infected with conspiracy>theories. (No big deal, anyway. The (continental) American>mindset likes conspiracy theories, like fresh cucumber after>rain.)
'I' "look infected with conspiracy theories"? What on earth do you mean? I
hope that you're gracious enough to give a couple of examples of this
disease that I apparently have. And please don't chicken out like you did
when Mark Humphreys asked you a couple of difficult questions.
Actually, I'd say that you're more prone to conspiracy theories than me. I
believe that anyone who has a strong faith in a 'creator' or whatever you
call it, believes that nature, and death, which is a part of nature, is out
to get you.
>Asymmetrical thinking is an attitude. Period.
Yeah. And in my books it belongs to those who are brain dead. And because
you're such a swell guy, I leave you with two(2) quotes to ponder.
Joe Szalai
"I have hardly ever known a mathematician who was capable of reasoning."
Plato
"Mathematics . . . would certainly have not come into existence if one had
known from the beginning that there was in nature no exactly straight line,
no actual circle, no absolute magnitude."
Friedrich Nietzsche

I will attempt to comment on oyur reply by using ++.
On Wed, 14 Aug 1996, Mark Humphreys wrote:
> Mr. Soltesz:>> Thank you for replying to my comments regarding religion yesterday. It's goo
d
> to be able to talk rationally with someone. Here are some of my responses:>> (BTW, don't worry, I won't continue any kind of long-winded debate on the> Hungary list. If this gets too involved, it could always be switched to> private lines. I apologize to Eva Balogh, Joe Szalai and everyone else for> the length of this posting.)>> > >>> Many societies flourish for a while (centuries) then fail because of> > moral decay.>> Could you please give examples of such societies? It often seems that> societiesfall because of combinations of ills. Weren't malaria and foreign> invaders> threats to Roman and Greek society? Other cultures saw combinations of> political intrigue, domestic and foreign wars. What is this moral decay? I> agree that a morality and positive structure are needed for development, but> generally> talking about "morals" and "moral decay" is sensitive. Especially, what> societycrumbled simply because they didn't persecute homosexuals and treated> them> fairly????????>> > Soltesz ur, tesse/k, what about the Soviet society?? They had their own> > highly CONSERVATIVE morality and imprisoned gays... they fell too!> >> > >>> Your implication is that the Soviet Empire was sinless (perfect)> > because they >>> were conservatives??? Far be it from the truth!!! They> > killed many people in the >>> name of Communism, destroyed many families,> > and stole and spent all the> > >>> wealth the country had [ in fact they are still doing so now! } As> > they say the Evil >>> Empire fell. {Actually, it may yet stand up again!}>> * Oh! I think I just said the Soviets were conservative, not sinless.> They were self-righteous with their *own* set of morals... and were busy> condemning others that did not fit into their correct ways and did not want> to be "saved" by the Party. As Christians seem to sometimes kick the
"immorals
> and apostates" out of their Heaven, so the Communists liked kicking "bad> elements" out of the Party or mainstream society. Christians talk often of> people> w/o morals, and Chinese communists talk of the evils of "incorrect thoughts."
++ The basic issue is whether or not what is "called" Christian today or
++ even since about 50-15 years after the death of Christ is in fact real
++ Christianity.
++ It seems to me, and it should to others as well -- if they do the
++ research -- that there were MANY subtle and not so subtle changes in the
++ Christian (aka Roman church, as elsewhere). Let me cite just one example.
++ They decided that the Sabbath should no longer be on Saturday but on
++ Sunday [ this allowed a differentiation between the true Christians and
++ the Jews - ala the Spanish inquisition -- to find, and exterminate the
++ truth. The only reasons that I see that this would be to destort the
++ truth and make the people confused.
> >> > >>> BTW the //Great Satan// as some like to call the USA will also fall> > if it does not >>> get back to being God fearing and get back on the> > right track. Perhaps you >>> should also read and learn from the bible> > and you can find out what happened >>> in Rome under the guise of> > Christianity in the early days of the Roman Church.>> I agree. That is why the Church, to me, seems like a teflon institution.
They
> certainly have some power on their side if they can massacre Jews, burn gays,> defame and burn scientists, make up prices for sins (indulgences)... yet
people
> look at it as a wise institution... the sole protector of eternal truths!!!!
++ I guess if we were left to that then we are all in trouble!
> The Church's view of the family makes me laugh and cry. Priests!!! They wea
r
> their frocks and pretty dresses for holidays, don't get married, are> *supposedlycelibate???.....and DARE tell others how to raise their
families!!>
++ I agree...dou you know that the church DID have marriages prior to the
++ council of Nicea?? Another warping of the church!
>> > I lived as a teenager in Asia, and people can live in happiness and> > prosperity without the burden of a god or any Jesus in many places.> >> > >>> It is too bad that you consider religion a burden. Then again, Jesus> > even said >>> (among others) that the road to heaven is narrow and not> > well trodden ....>> What I mean about religious burden isn't about sacrificing... I mean they are> not burdened by moral codes and balancing acts between doing things with> rewards and balances. The godless religion of Buddhism is interesting,
because
> you take responsibility for your own actions. Whether you are "saved" or not> or believe in a certain book is besides the point. Ideally in Buddhism there> is an equilibrium that unprejudicially balances itself out. There is no room> for personal judgements. Buddhists don't ever claim to "know a god or under-> stand its morality:" they feel that "those who say they know and understand"> don't know enough to see their own ignorance.
\
++ There seem to be many universal truths (totaly unrelated to what
++ religion or if any) this is important to learn for all!
> > I laughed at the comment by the Olympian athlete when she said she won a
race
> > because (something to the effect that) she is a Christian and her prayers> > were> > answered! Oi, Istenem! Wow! What if other competitors prayed to Jesus ..
.
> > would they all win the same race!!>> > >>> Unlike you, I cannot fault them...if they believe that God helped> > them focus, do >>> better, etc. then good for them...if you cannot> > believe that is your loss perhaps, >>> but apparently not theirs!!!>> I do not see where it would be my loss to recognize her skill. If she believe
s
> this fine, then I wonder if she would be just as happy if she lost! Would sh
e
> also say, "I'm so happy I lost, because I prayed and god let me lose!" It's> funny how people make their own judgements as if they know the unknown for> their own benefit. Maybe she also wore a luck pin, and she could just as
easliy
> say the lucky pin won the race. I often see this religiousness as another> superstition... but with more influence. That's all.>> This makes me think of Christians who say god brought AIDS to punish
homosexuals
> !! Well, why is it if a family member of theirs dies, they say "God called> them!" "It's god's will!" or "God is giving us a trial to make us stronger!"> What angel from High came on down to give them these wonderful double-standar
d
> interpretations?? Maybe god just didn't like those Christians and wanted to> see them die???>> > >>> One more thing....please show me where in any religious book you can> > find that >>> it is OK (or acceptable) to be homosexual? One basic thing> > is that life on this >>> planet at least is based on the family. It is> > the attempt at destroying this family >>> that bothers me, since without> > the family we are ALL doomed.>> Religious books don't hold any ground for me. (Especially the Book of
Mormon...
> found on a non-extant mountain, the document brought by an angel is
conveniently
> lost.... originally could only be read with crystal glasses!!!!!) I could
make
> up a better story. I know homosexuals who play important FAMILY roles. They> are good brothers and sisters, loving sons and daughters and fun aunts and> uncles. Isn't that family? The Church always spews on about God's family...
.
> isn't that also a distortion of the nuclear family? I believe family's come> in all forms. I don't think I gay person who is asking for fair treatment or> for rights taken for granted by others is asking to destroy families or askin
g
> heterosexuals to become homosexuals. Blacks want civil rights... they don't> want every to become Black.>> >The only thing I think god blesses is peace!>> Very good point, Mr. Soltesz. Here we also agree.> >> > Another topic to talk about some time is the silliness of interpreting> > what //god// says through natural disasters and good times.> >> > >>> Well, that is also an interesting question. All I will say about it> > now is that there >>> are sections of the Judeo-Christian bible that> > clearly imply that there is some >>> definite relationship.> >>> If you believe this, that is fine, but if the god is so superior and
mysterious,
> which human dares to judge for it and have the audacity to say their
understand
> the logic and judgements of the god? I know I would be insulted if someone> decided to speak for Me on issues on My behalf and claimed to understand Me.>> It was insulting to hear the 700 Club (???) about two years ago say that the> Ca. earthquakes and midwestern floods were caused by god's displeasure with> the gays!!! So the god has an American political agenda? There are more> quakesin Japan than in San Fran, so is Japan the land of gay boys??? Maybe
the
> floodswere caused, then, because god is tired of all the Bible thumping> Christians> who lived there!? (Anyway, Ca. had earthquakes *centuries* ago, why does god> suddenly decide to give them a new meaning???)>> Thank you for the dialogue,>> I sincerely mean no offense w/ any remarks. Communicating by typed words is> lacking in some ways, and I wish for no misunderstandings.>> Mark>

One should have known that Joe Szalai is not only potentially a
homosexual, but also a godless man.
In spite of what he says I do not rant and rave. However, please do
notice that he is unable to respond to anything without constant insults
etc. I would be more than happy to discuss issues and in spite of what he
may think I am quite broad in my views and I challange him to be the same.
If he really wants to debate and have an open mind then so be it, else
why don't you just stop being a whatever you want to call it!
Peter Soltesz

Perhaps if you were to try to broaden your horizons instead of being a
defender of only homosexuals, you might see that there is a much bigger
problem. It is not only homosexuals that are the issue. The issue as you
point out is that there are problems in the world (including the
heterosexual ones). The issue is why.....a society does not fall just
because of ONE thing [ just like airplanes crash only after two
sequential errors committed by a pilot ]. Societies get corrupted slowly
by forces which affect segments of populations. It is the combination of
several arenas of corruptions that cause the overal decay and ultimate
collapse of a society.
Peter Soltesz
On Wed, 14 Aug 1996, Joe Szalai wrote:
> At 01:34 AM 8/15/96 +0200, Zsargo Janos > wrote:>> At 10:51 AM 8/14/96 EDT, Mark Humphreys wrote:>> >>Especially, what society crumbled simply because they didn't persecute> >>homosexuals and treated them fairly????????> >> >None, but it was a signer, barometer which showed the upcoming 'storm'> >in the case of Roman Empire (along with other things).>> A signer and a barometer my ass!>> Here's a "signer" for you, Janos.>> Last week in Ottawa, participants at the Women's Health Forum conference> were shocked to learn that the cost of violence against women in Canada was> estimated at $4.2 billion a year. Four point two BILLION! Every year!! In> Canada, alone.>> The cost includes medical costs, social services such as welfare,> counselling, shelters, days absent from work, lost income and taxes and> insurance costs. According to the local paper, "as much as $1.5 billion a> year is spent on short- and long-term health costs and community support -> from emergency surgery to mental healthcare to drug addiction programs -> resulting from battering." According to the study's author the $4.2 billion> is a minimum, not a maximum.>> Now I ask you. Is the above a barometer that shows the "'storm'" that> HETEROsexuality is going to bring to Canada? Or does heterosexuality not> bring any such storms? Only homosexuality does, right? "(Along with other> things)", of course.>> Joe Szalai>

Mark said:
Janos mentioned that societies in disorder fall. Yes, but why is
treating gay
people fairly a reason for disorder? I feel that being fair to gays lets you
see an element of society (that's always there) and can improve it. If
you can
people fairly a reason for disorder? I feel that being fair to gays lets you
see an element of society (that's always there) and can improve it. If
you can
integrate people and make them feel good, isn't that an IMPROVEMENT in
society?
It is like the Hungarians in Romania or Slovakia. If you pretend they don't
exist or make them feel like cruddy 2nd class citizens, will that improve
every-
bodies situation? No, I think that would cause disunity and disorder.
+++
It is not that gays are being treated "fairly" the issue. Fisrt of all
what is fairly:
1--- allow them to exist
2--- allow them to join the military
3--- allow then to openly flaunt their behavior
4--- allow them to marry
5--- what??? be like ACT-UP???
The issue is that this is only one of many indicators of problems ahead.
As far as Hungarians are concerned in the "old Hungary" yes they are
second class citizens (unfortunatelly). Hvae you been to Hungary lately?
Did you see the constant discrimnation within Hungary against:
Jews, Gypsies, Romanian Hungarians, Slovakian Hungarians, etc???
I think we first must tackle that problem...how can we expect others to
be nice to us if even amongst ourselves we cannot accept that one is
Hungarian. (Perhaps it is a Nazi version of pure-Hungarians that someone
is looking for???). It is what I call a Hungarian disease that one looks
down at their noses at other Hungarians (whether it is this or that).
Peter Soltesz

Jozsi Hills remarks were interesting. Tell me what about the fact that we
spend an inordinate maount of money to print, educate, etc. people in
other than English with our tax money?? I recently saw voting ballots in
28 languages in California....that is insane!
In Washington, the bus schedules are printed in Vietnamise, Spanish,
Korean, and (English I believe!).
One should NOT have to speak Spanish to teach in an American school period!
(Unless of ocurse it is a language course)
Peter Soltesz

Mark:
One must look at the homosexual "marriage" issue from several perspectives.
1- The fundamental definition of marriage (for eons) does not apply.
2- There is an economic issue.
3- There is a ethical and moral issue.
4- It is not a right nor a privilege
Once these issues are discussed and resolved (one way or another) then we
can take the next steps.

Mr. Soltesz,
Actually it is interesting to see that we agree on many points. A number of
your comments were interesting, and I did NOT know about the married priests
before the Coucil of Nicea. Also, thanks for the correction of the 13 tribes.
One of your last messages said, "Perhaps if you were to try to broaden your
horizons instead of being a defender of only homosexuals...." I hope I don't
come off as that narrowly viewed. It is simply the main topic of origin while
discussing socials morals etc... You are actually making the same point as I
when you say that a society's fall is a "combination of several arenas of cor-
ruptions." That's is why I don't see why gays should take all the blame.
When I mentioned Jews (and not just gays), one member of the list accused me of
using Jews and concentrating on Jews. Oy!
As I already said: there are corrupt and good heterosexuals and corrupt and
good homosexuals. (This even is valid for ethnic groups, religious groups,
...)
** I feel ALL people should be given a chance to proof their goodness/posi-
tiveness or cheapness. Let the actions speak, and not only the social label.
I also don't want to LIKE someone just because they are Hungarian or Chinese
or gay, Rep... Having black/white discriminations of likes and dislikes are
each as dangerous and deceiving as the other.
In the Old Testament, it seems that survival of the family was of great impor-
tance. Hence the lineage, tales of tribes (groups), loss of people, cities...
The idea, it seems to me, against homosexuality was that it was a loss of seed.
Even the ideas of accepted incest (brothers being able to marry the widows of
brothers, Adam & Eve) deal with survival and descendants... values change as
society changes. Even views towards slavery have changed. Why, though, are
some people, though, stuck on keeping the views of homosexuals stuck in
pre-Christian dimensions?
***
In Romania I had arguments with two Romanians who talked of bossy, dirty Hunga-
rians, but when asked... the didn't know any!! How do they know even the
personal habits of an entire group of people they never met!! Then they though
t
I was Hungarian, because my Romanian stinks (I'd love to improve it!) and I was
a foreigner! You could replace the word 'Hungarian' in this story with 'homo-
sexual' and see how idiotic both hatreds are.
**
One final comment about the Communist Party and the Church: Big Brother was al-
ways right and shouldn't be questioned, and in Catholicism the pope is the one
who is knowledegable and shouldn't be challenged. Protestantism also makes my
head spin: If personal interpretation or the Word is so important, how can
religious groups be formed and then have to follow their leader as the all-
knowing judge? By the way, I do admire some people who are religious and it
helps THEIR private life. I am simply doing fine without it and do not need
anyone to tell me otherwise... and I'm basically not all that evil or corrupt!
Well, just some food for thought.
Thanks for the input!
Mark
PS: It does seem easy, though, to get caustic and virulent on the list. When
you are simpling typing at a keyboard w/o any room for nuances in speech or
physical expression, the types of verbal communication used can get distorted.
I think Joe Szalai just gets excited and uses strong words to match his strong
emotions... not to convey any kind of blind hate. He seems cool. You do too.
(Wow! A lovefest on the Hungary List! Ha!)

For egg lovers:
I am (not only godless and a gay-lover) but also a very accomplished egg
painter. I specialize in the wax-resist methods of Eastern Europe (Ukraine,
Lithuania, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania). I have even been published in Ukraine,
Asia and N. America. I plan to go to Hungary, Slovakia and Romania next year
*possibly* to search for intricate and/or colorful eggs.
***
Would people like to discuss egg dyeing practices in different regions for a
few postings? I would really like to know if anyone can recommend some areas
or villages to visit. I will probably return to some villages and monastaries
that paint (write) the eggs in Bukowina, but are there any suggestions?? Please
.
***
I do the pull-drop method with drops of wax on a straight (not gay!) pin. This
is popular in Rusyn' areas of Slovakia, Lithuania and parts of Poland, but not
Hungary.
I like the stark symbolism of the eggs of Erdhely; they are black, white and
red with only the pagan (now Christian) symbols of nature on them.
I already have a mail-order business with my eggs, but I hope to maybe even
write a book in a few years. (If the market isn't already too full of egg
books.) Contributions and suggestions are welcome.
Thank you,
Mark
(I will probably have to get of the list in a few weeks. So that is why I am
bringing up this topic now and not in the Spring.)

At 11:09 AM 8/16/96 -0400, Peter Soltesz wrote:
>Perhaps if you were to try to broaden your horizons instead of being a>defender of only homosexuals, you might see that there is a much bigger>problem. It is not only homosexuals that are the issue. The issue as you>point out is that there are problems in the world (including the>heterosexual ones). The issue is why.....a society does not fall just>because of ONE thing [ just like airplanes crash only after two>sequential errors committed by a pilot ]. Societies get corrupted slowly>by forces which affect segments of populations. It is the combination of>several arenas of corruptions that cause the overal decay and ultimate>collapse of a society.
Chill out, Peter. In your zeal to find scapegoats you overlook the fact
that social decay and collapse are necessary for rebirth. If your comment
that "societies get corrupted slowly by forces which affect segments of
populations" is true, then it is quite conceivable that some heterosexuals
have been corrupted, as they exhibit a psychopathic hatred toward
homosexuals. And using scripture and holy books to further their venom is
unconscionable.
Joe Szalai
"The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose."
William Shakespeare

At 11:02 AM 8/16/96 -0400, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:
>One should have known that Joe Szalai is not only potentially a>homosexual, but also a godless man.
We're all potentially homosexual, daaling. And you'll never know whether I
am or not, until you sleep with me, big guy. As to your other point, we're
all godless. The problem is that most of us don't know it. What a shame!
What a sham! Talk about missed opportunities at living.
>In spite of what he says I do not rant and rave. However, please do>notice that he is unable to respond to anything without constant insults>etc. I would be more than happy to discuss issues and in spite of what he>may think I am quite broad in my views and I challange him to be the same.
OK. You're on! Answer my original questions that I posted several weeks
ago. Here it is again for your edification.
"Until you explain *who* the 'undesireable types' are, in Turkish baths in
Budapest, and why you think it's OK to call people by dehumanizing labels
such as 'doles', 'reds', 'pinkos', 'corrupt bastards', 'Germans',
'Rusiians'(sic), I have little interest in carrying on a "civilized
conversation on what reality is" with you. And when you explain, I just may
not want to.
A while ago, one of the contributors to this list lamented the fact that the
Hungarian language FORUM had become a forum for extreme right wing views.
Apparently, those who were (still are?) on the moderate right did not
distance themselves from those on the extreme right. (I guess the seductive
power of classical right wing economic theory is mightily potent. A bit
like Bondage and Discipline, no?) I don't read the Forum so I don't know
what would have been called 'extreme right' on that newsgroup. But I'd like
to ask here. Would the spleenful classification of people by 'type',
economic status, political beliefs, and ethnic origin, be seen as 'extreme'?"
>If he really wants to debate and have an open mind then so be it, else>why don't you just stop being a whatever you want to call it!>Peter Soltesz
What should I be, Peter? Should I live to make you happy? If I live for
you, will you die for me?
Joe Szalai
"Life has no other discipline to impose, if we would but realize it, than to
accept life unquestioningly. Everything we shut our eyes to, everything we
run away from, everything we deny, denigrate or despise, serves to defeat us
in the end. What seems nasty, painful, evil, can become a source of beauty,
joy and strength, if faced with an open mind. Every moment is a golden one
for him who has the vision to recognize it as such."
Henry Miller

Last night there was a very interresting historical show on Global tv.called
"Ch risty Pits Riots".It went back 36 years.It showed how the Wasp controlled
Toronto,the signs No Jews or dogs allowed,and how they treated the new
immigrants.
Today there are 120 different nationalitys and they use 100 different languages
.
Still there are only 2 official languages:english and french.
Why are the people in the States so frightened about one more language?
Andy.

At 11:20 AM 8/16/96 -0400, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:
>It is not that gays are being treated "fairly" the issue. Fisrt of all>what is fairly:>1--- allow them to exist>2--- allow them to join the military>3--- allow then to openly flaunt their behavior>4--- allow them to marry>5--- what??? be like ACT-UP???
Wow, man! You sound almost god-like. Who the hell do you think you are to
think that you can decide the quality of life, if any, of other humans.
Isn't that the idea, the "modus operandi", behind the whole wretched history
of human suffering on this planet. Whether or not you're conscious of it,
that's what you're doing.
Let's take your little lesson and substitute "gypsy" for "gay". It can be
done with other groups as well, but, regardless of the group, it just
doesn't look very inclusive.
>It is not that gypsies are being treated "fairly" the issue. Fisrt of all>what is fairly:>1--- allow them to exist>2--- allow them to join the military>3--- allow then to openly flaunt their behavior>4--- allow them to marry>5--- what??? be like???>The issue is that this is only one of many indicators of problems ahead.
Problems where? In your head?
>As far as Hungarians are concerned in the "old Hungary" yes they are>second class citizens (unfortunatelly).
"Unfortunately"? You're saying, "unfortunately"? Oh please! Somebody pass
the napkins.
>Hvae you been to Hungary lately?>Did you see the constant discrimnation within Hungary against:>Jews, Gypsies, Romanian Hungarians, Slovakian Hungarians, etc???>I think we first must tackle that problem...
I hear you loud and clear. "Gays to the back of the bus".
>how can we expect others to>be nice to us if even amongst ourselves we cannot accept that one is>Hungarian. (Perhaps it is a Nazi version of pure-Hungarians that someone>is looking for???). It is what I call a Hungarian disease that one looks>down at their noses at other Hungarians (whether it is this or that).
If they gave olympic medals for this "Hungarian disease" I think that you
would get gold. You do remember your winning performance when you called
some Hungarians, 'undesireable types', 'reds', 'pinkos', and 'corrupt
bastards', don't you?
Joe Szalai

At 02:12 PM 8/16/96 -0400, Andy Kozma wrote:
<snip>
>Today there are 120 different nationalitys and they use 100 different
languages.
>Still there are only 2 official languages:english and french.>Why are the people in the States so frightened about one more language?
Good question Andy. Almost every major language in the world is spoken in
Toronto and yet it's a city that doesn't have a language problem. Some
writers have indicated that they don't like the cost of multilingualism. I
think that's a myopic, self-serving view.
Joe Szalai
"There is the fear, common to all English-only speakers, that the chief
purpose of foreign languages is to make fun of us. Otherwise, you know, why
not just come out and say it?"
Barbara Ehrenreich

On Thu, 15 Aug 1996 07:11:42 -0700, Jozsi Hill expressed the following
enlightened opinion:
>I have lived in Santa Barbara California, where a friend of mine could>not get a job a teacher because she did not speak spanish!!
Do you mean that some school was looking for teachers who spoke Spanish and
your friend didn't qualify? Sort of like if I went to the Political
Science department here at SFU and they didn't hire me as a TA because my
degree was in anthropology.
Then Joe went on to sing the immigrant's lament:
>Who provided us with hungarian speaking teachers when we came to this country?
Actually, some of us were luckier then others. Hungarian volunteers from
the School of Education of the University of Pennsylvania at Pittsburg came
to my school three times a week for the whole afternoon. They were a big
help and made it possible for me to become fluent in English in less then a
year. It was the high point of my otherwise dismal academic career.
Joe complained further:
>And>there are many cases where children with hispanic sounding name are>FORCED into spanish classes, yet they - nor their parents - speak>spanish.
This sounds like an anectode to me. Have you any figures on how often this
sort of atrocity happens in California's public schools?
> It is about time that those busybody liberals be put into their>places and stop wasting my hard earned money that I don't want to give>them in the first place but they take it from me in the form of taxes.
First off, I'd bet that however hard it was for you to earn your money,
there were many people in the United States who worked harder for less and
many others who worked hardly at all for a lot more.
Second, it continues to amaze me how American conservatives, (more
precisely, neo-liberals) persist in believing that property rights are
somehow natural and would continue to exist if it were not for the
continued existence of the state. The money you pay in taxes is overhead.
You owe it for the privilige of being reasonably secure in your property.
If you begrudge it, you don't deserve to own anything!
Tibor Benke

(gardener) wrote:
> Someone wrote a request for cheap lodging in Budapest. Well... I've got the>best plan for you. The best places to stay in Hungary in the summer months are>University dormitories. The students are away for summer and the rooms are>rented out to tourists at a VERY reasonable price. One place in particular>that I would highly recommend is a place I stayed at last summer. It is a>dormitory belonging to a university called ELTE. You have two options to>choose from. 1) You can rent a whole room for 500,-HUF per night(about $4.00>US). This gives you three beds , three desks and your own private bathroom>(soap and towels included) The rooms are very clean and very nice and some>even have a balcony with a rather nice view. 2) You can rent a bed in a room>with other guests of the dormitory. This costs a mere 100,-HUF per night(about>$0.50 US). However you will have to share a common bathroom in the hall with>other guests as well as share a room with people that you might not know. If>you are with a group of friends you would be better off to get one of the>private rooms with your own bathroom.> The dormitory is located in Budapest's district XI on the corner of>Budaorsi ut. and Dayka Gabor u. You can get there easily by taxi or by getting>of the subway (Metro) at Deli Pu. and catching a #139 bus to Dayka Gabor utca.>When you get off the bus at Dayka Gabor utca you will notice a fenced in>complex with several good sized builings behind the bus stop. Walk up Dayka>Gabor u. and go through the gate and give the nice man your money. It's that>easy! Have a good time in Hungary! Say hi to my grandmother for me!> Istvan Varga
HI my name is Salis i`m planning on moving to Hungary with my family
and I looked up the hotels on the net and the prices there are
extremely expensive (150$ - 200 $ a day in 3 star hotel for a double
room) .
I`m interested in any info you can give me .
I am also interested in investing in Hungary but i have tried to get
the interest rate on dollars throgh the net with no success maybe you
have an idea
Salis
email -

(gardener) wrote:
> Someone wrote a request for cheap lodging in Budapest. Well... I've got the>best plan for you. The best places to stay in Hungary in the summer months are>University dormitories. The students are away for summer and the rooms are>rented out to tourists at a VERY reasonable price. One place in particular>that I would highly recommend is a place I stayed at last summer. It is a>dormitory belonging to a university called ELTE. You have two options to>choose from. 1) You can rent a whole room for 500,-HUF per night(about $4.00>US). This gives you three beds , three desks and your own private bathroom>(soap and towels included) The rooms are very clean and very nice and some>even have a balcony with a rather nice view. 2) You can rent a bed in a room>with other guests of the dormitory. This costs a mere 100,-HUF per night(about>$0.50 US). However you will have to share a common bathroom in the hall with>other guests as well as share a room with people that you might not know. If>you are with a group of friends you would be better off to get one of the>private rooms with your own bathroom.> The dormitory is located in Budapest's district XI on the corner of>Budaorsi ut. and Dayka Gabor u. You can get there easily by taxi or by getting>of the subway (Metro) at Deli Pu. and catching a #139 bus to Dayka Gabor utca.>When you get off the bus at Dayka Gabor utca you will notice a fenced in>complex with several good sized builings behind the bus stop. Walk up Dayka>Gabor u. and go through the gate and give the nice man your money. It's that>easy! Have a good time in Hungary! Say hi to my grandmother for me!> Istvan Varga
I was surprised to read ur article `cause through the net I reached
sites which told of hotel prices and even 3 star hotels charge
according to that more then 150 $ a night for a double room.
I plan to move to Hungary with my family(2 kids) and I`m looking for
cheap lodgings ,Could u suggest anything.
Salis( )

I have origins in Hungary and so want very much to stack s portion of
my money in Hungary at first and hopefully later move to live there.
I have been trying for the past few weeks to get information on the
current interest rate one can recieve on dollars in Hungary but with
absolutly no success.
If anyone can give me any information concerning the above issue or
perhaps even other investment possibilities ,either reply to this or
e-mail me ).
THANKS ,
Salis

At 02:04 AM 8/17/96 +0200, Zsargo Janos wrote:
>Why is it a basic requirement to be able to join>the military? To hear those feminist and other activists>to demand this, always makes me sick. Perhaps if someone>would tell or show these people, how a soldier looks like>after stepping on a land-mine or how a corpse smell after>2-3 weeks their interest would be much lower.>Maybe they should visit a city after heavy bombardment>or take a long walk on a snow-field in -20 Celsius>without proper clothes and food.>Fortunatelly I never had these experiences, but believe>me I heard enough story from first-hand to feel irritated>by such stupid demands.
The demand is for equality. Equality is not stupid. War is.
Joe Szalai
"We used to wonder where war lived, what it was that made it so vile. And
now we realize that we know where it lives, that it is inside ourselves."
Albert Camus

At 05:03 PM 8/15/96 +0100, Tamas Kocsis wrote:
>This childish game "who is antisemite and who is not" has become the play>of nuances. Because of a little nuance I may prove that Eva Balogh herself>is an antisemite:>>1. One who call the SZDSZ Jewish party is considered antisemite in Hun->gary.>>2. Eva unconsciously treats the SZDSZ as Jewish party. There is no way>otherwise to prove this text to be antisemite.
Good try. But it wasn't me who considered this piece antisemitic but
Jozsef Debreczeni. As he said--and I'm quoting from memory--there are no
SZDSZ members in delivery rooms. As far as I know there are indeed no SZDSZ
members in delivery rooms: only mothers, doctors, and babies.
Eva Balogh

At 07:11 AM 8/15/96 -0700, Jozsi Hill wrote:
>And>there are many cases where children with hispanic sounding name are>FORCED into spanish classes, yet they - nor their parents - speak>spanish.
This is a somewhat related story. When I was dean of Morse College,
Yale University, among my numerous duties one of the worst was to write
recommendations to every student who was applying to law school. And a lot
of people applied to law school! One particular class was especially
outstanding academically and among the many outstanding students there was
one whose last name was Fernandez. But he wasn't Hispanic; he didn't
consider himself Hispanic, his grandparents came from Portugal and his
father was a blue-collar worker. He was a very good student. His grades were
good (although not Phi Beta Kappa) and his law boards results were very high
too, although not mid-700s. In brief, he was borderline for the best law
schools in the country among non-black, non-Hispanic students. You wouldn't
believe how many telephone calls I received from law schools (very unusual
thing to happen; almost unheard of) deans of admissions asking me whether my
Fernandez was Hispanic or not. As soon as I said that he wasn't, interest in
him dropped. You could hear it from the voice. I was furious and told them
that after all, Fernandez's father is an autoworker and he is the first
college graduate of his family. This obviously didn't impress them because
those universities whose deans of admission phoned me didn't accept him. At
the end there was a nice ending to the story because my Fernandez was a
talented and nice fellow who made quite a career for himself as a lawyer.
But not because he was Hispanic.
Eva Balogh

At 05:39 PM 8/16/96 -0700, you wrote:
>As far as I know, this is true. Would you like me to translate it into English
?
>>Gabor D. Farkas>
Ciao Gabor....remember moi?
Keeping in mind the recent topics, your translation would likely start a
*hot new* thread???....
Regards,
Aniko
>

At 05:16 PM 8/16/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Just curious. To what degree does the perceived deliberate misuse of>language contribute to racial discord?>
To to tune of:
1) Living in a country, when in Quebec you watch a Francophone speak
perfect English to a friend as a clerk and refuses to speak English to one,
whom they perceive not to understand French....
2) Watching the reaction of people as their country *grows* from black
to red through the process of implementing a second official language; while
the ones it is supposed to please are hell bent and determined to remain
unilingual
3) Being a lover of languages; and watching a silent war on the rise as
a result of that love
Just three *teeny*examples, which I have wittnessed on the sidelines as
being perceived contributors. I am sure there are a thousand more at least....
.
>
Regards,
Aniko

In article >, says...
>Z.Szekely wrote:>>he made a couple surprising comments about his WWII past and his>>still-existing respect toward the 'excellence' of the German>>Army of the war.>>Now, Mitterand was neither a Nazi nor a Fascist, was he?..>I do not understand why one has to be nazi or fascist to admit>that excellence. I do think that none of the other armies was comparable>to that German Army untill Stalingrad. Just read the history books about>1939-1942.
And even after Stalingrad. That campaign was ineptly managed by Hitler,
the result of his obsession with the political sinificance of the city's
name. Stalingrad was for the taking by encirclement, but Hitler insisted
on its direct capture by force, a big blunder that allowed the later
encirclement of the German forces instead. There were also other factors,
like the belief that even if they were encircled, as they were, they
could then dig in, be supplied, fight from within the encirclement and
then be relieved, as had already happened several times on other parts
of the front , especially the Demyansk pocket [which is a study of its
kind]. However, the Stalingrad situation was nothing like Demyansk and
the Germans bit the dust (or, ice). Even, later, Operation Zitadelle
(to pinch off the Kursk pocket, Summer 1943) might have succeeded had
Hitler not pulled out at the crucial moment (see von Manstein's *Lost
Victories*, Paget's *Manstein* and Carell's *Scorched Earth* amongst
others) and after that many brilliant and heroic rearguard actions were
fought (e.g. the Tscherkassy pocket 1944)...but I'm getting a bit carried
away with this posting....less of a digression is to mention that the
Hungarian Army Corps (along with Romanian and other non-German units)
held one of the shoulders outside Stalingrad whilst the Germans spearheaded
the attack into the city; the Hungarians, etc, took the brunt of the
Soviet counter-attacks.
Just to wind up: Marshal Zhukov grudgingly acknowledged the technical
quality of the Germans over all fighting forces that he had known,
emphasized by their frequent military achievements against numerical
superiority (even if they didn't have the fanaticism of the Japs), but
with a bozo like Hitler running the show no wonder they lost in the end
(and a good job, too).
--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * ARM Club * C=64..ICPUG * NW London CC

Joe:
> 'I' "look infected with conspiracy theories"? What on earth do you mean?
You find it everywhere. Probably because it is in the
center of your mind.
> And please don't chicken out like you did> when Mark Humphreys asked you a couple of difficult questions.
Like how to play a clarinet? I don't know, I'm not a
musician, Joe.
> Actually, I'd say that you're more prone to conspiracy theories than me. I> believe that anyone who has a strong faith in a 'creator' or whatever you> call it, believes that nature, and death, which is a part of nature, is out> to get you.
Why don't you tell it simply: any Christian is a
conspirationist (and also religious Jews...). That's
your point? Just tell me straight, let me laugh.
> >Asymmetrical thinking is an attitude. Period.> Yeah. And in my books it belongs to those who are brain dead.
Not at all. It is the state of the world now, in the
end of the most hated Century of the Earth. You don't
know the history if you don't see this asymmetry. My
point was about changing this feature of a deadly time,
if possible for the coming of a New Century. But
nevermind. You are involved in defending something
different (another stuff in the center of you mind?).
Your matematics bashing is really funny. I enjoy it.
Do you have more?
Sz. Zoli

Peter Soltesz wrote:
>It is not that gays are being treated "fairly" the>issue. Fisrt of all what is fairly:>1--- allow them to exist>2--- allow them to join the military
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Why is it a basic requirement to be able to join
the military? To hear those feminist and other activists
to demand this, always makes me sick. Perhaps if someone
would tell or show these people, how a soldier looks like
after stepping on a land-mine or how a corpse smell after
2-3 weeks their interest would be much lower.
Maybe they should visit a city after heavy bombardment
or take a long walk on a snow-field in -20 Celsius
without proper clothes and food.
Fortunatelly I never had these experiences, but believe
me I heard enough story from first-hand to feel irritated
by such stupid demands.
>Did you see the constant discrimnation within Hungary against:>Jews, Gypsies, Romanian Hungarians, Slovakian Hungarians, etc???
Na ide figyelj! Mind a sajat, mind a csaladom, mind pedig a
magyarorszagi magyarok neveben KIKEREM magamnak, hogy leanti-
szemitazzanak. MAGYARORSZAGON NINCS ALLANDO DISZKRIMINACIO
A ZSIDOK ELLEN. Van nehany jobboldali faszfej es liberalis
szabadmadar aki a sajat kis celjai erdekeben gerjeszti/ter-
jeszti ezt.
However I have to admitt that there are prejudices and
probably discriminations (but not offical) against gypsies.
J.Zs

Dear Gabor, irod:
>>Na ide figyelj! Mind a sajat, mind a csaladom, mind pedig a>>magyarorszagi magyarok neveben KIKEREM magamnak, hogy leanti->>szemitazzanak. MAGYARORSZAGON NINCS ALLANDO DISZKRIMINACIO>>A ZSIDOK ELLEN. Van nehany jobboldali faszfej es liberalis>>szabadmadar aki a sajat kis celjai erdekeben gerjeszti/ter->>jeszti ezt.>>As far as I know, this is true. Would you like me to translate >it into
English?
>>Gabor D. Farkas
I guess I can do it myself if it is necessary. I wrote it in
Hungarian, because I wanted to deliver the tone with my message to Peter
Soltesz. I am really fed up with this subject here and on the Forum. If
somebody is interested in the content in
English I can translate it. Thank you anyway.
J.Zs