Really the only place I've come across this outcry to nerf normal modes is here on this forum and from Osmeric specifically.

You need to work on reading comprehension. I'm not calling for normal modes to be nerfed.

"There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
"Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
"Nothing will ever be attempted if all possible objections must first be overcome." -- Samuel Johnson

You need to work on reading comprehension. I'm not calling for normal modes to be nerfed.

My reading comprehension is fine. Instead of my paraphrasing you, let's use your own quotes from this thread:

Originally Posted by Osmeric

I'm hoping it's soon, and that most people who were trying to raid in normal mode give up in disgust. The devs at Blizzard who think difficulty and complexity are good for the game need some stern discipline.

Originally Posted by Reyzzz

Are you implying normal modes are too hard? The most ridiculous thing I've heard for awhile.

Originally Posted by Osmeric

They are beyond my personal level of enjoyment. And, judging by completion numbers on tracking sites, they are beyond the level of interest and/or ability of the vast majority of players.

If you are defining "not too hard" as "you, Reyzzz, likes it", I decline to accept the validity of your definition.

If you're asking for Blizzard to reduce the difficulty of normal mode then that is, in fact, asking for normal mode to be nerfed.

So your argument is "I don't use it, and there are a lot of people like me, therefore it is a waste of development time". Logically sound on first glance, but predicated on the assumption that time not spent on such content you have deemed worthless would translate directly to greater development time on content which you enjoy. This is very rarely the case. And if more content you enjoy is not ultimately your goal, why would you advocate the removal of content simply to see it removed? At that point, you are nothing more than a bitter individual telling people to get the hell out of YOUR game.

Further, even if they removed all difficulties above LFR, the raids would still take up an almost equal amount of development time. Balancing the numbers across the difficulties is a trivial process insofar as the amount of time it takes. The process they use is fairly obvious if one pays attention to the details of each difficulty on each encounter. The heroic boss is designed first. The numbers are tuned down for normal, with the possible removal of abilities. The numbers are further tuned down for LFR. But the numbers balance is not what takes up the most time. The physical and spacial design of the raid encounter takes FAR longer. That is time that would need to be spent even if LFR were the only singular raid difficulty offered. So there would be no realistic gain in removing the higher difficulty content. At that point, there is no logical reasoning to rationalize the removal of content that a group of people, regardless of the size of that group, enjoy.

All this complaining is simply further proof that Blizzard could send each and every player a real-life wish-granting flying unicorn carrying a solid gold plate of chocolate chip cookies wrapped in hundred dollar bills, and someone would whine that Blizzard sucks for not letting them choose oatmeal raisin.

Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking

If your guild demands you slip into an elephants butt and force yourself out in a regurgation then you can't blame Blizzard for supplying the elephant.

If you're asking for Blizzard to reduce the difficulty of normal mode then that is, in fact, asking for normal mode to be nerfed.

Saying normal modes are too hard for most players (and beyond my personal level of interest) is not the same as saying the difficulty of normal modes should be reduced. For me, at this point, I doubt I'd do normal modes even if they were nerfed.

The message I do want to get across to Blizzard is that the inclusion of that difficult raid content does absolutely nothing to keep me in the game. It's not some carrot that's dangling out there, casting a value-enhancing aura on the parts of the game I play. It's at best irrelevant, and at worst a detriment (if not a huge one), to the game as I play it.

Now, maybe Blizzard understands this, and has decided that the marginal cost of adding normal/heroic raid content (above and beyond LFR-only) is low enough that it ends up having adequate ROI. If so, so be it. I have a hard time believing heroic raid modes are paying their way though, given the low usage that mode gets.

Last edited by Osmeric; 2013-01-30 at 06:16 PM.

"There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
"Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
"Nothing will ever be attempted if all possible objections must first be overcome." -- Samuel Johnson

So your argument is "I don't use it, and there are a lot of people like me, therefore it is a waste of development time". Logically sound on first glance, but predicated on the assumption that time not spent on such content you have deemed worthless would translate directly to greater development time on content which you enjoy. This is very rarely the case. And if more content you enjoy is not ultimately your goal, why would you advocate the removal of content simply to see it removed? At that point, you are nothing more than a bitter individual telling people to get the hell out of YOUR game.

Further, even if they removed all difficulties above LFR, the raids would still take up an almost equal amount of development time. Balancing the numbers across the difficulties is a trivial process insofar as the amount of time it takes. The process they use is fairly obvious if one pays attention to the details of each difficulty on each encounter. The heroic boss is designed first. The numbers are tuned down for normal, with the possible removal of abilities. The numbers are further tuned down for LFR. But the numbers balance is not what takes up the most time. The physical and spacial design of the raid encounter takes FAR longer. That is time that would need to be spent even if LFR were the only singular raid difficulty offered. So there would be no realistic gain in removing the higher difficulty content. At that point, there is no logical reasoning to rationalize the removal of content that a group of people, regardless of the size of that group, enjoy.

Somebody get this guy a beer ^^!

Osmeric, the divide between HC and Normal Raiders should have NO effect on your gameplay. You cannot compare the model to pvp because PVP Power and PVP resilience has fixed the usage of PVE gear in PVP problem. Someone doing more dps than you in a Heroic Dungeon or LFR (which I assume is your only level of content) does not affect your game play either. You can complain about normal modes but as it does not directly nor inherently affect you, you should have no issue. Besides, there are still scenarios, dailies(lul), brawler's guild, bgs (I promise there are people just as undergeared/underskilled as you there), farming, RP, Heroic Dungeons, Old dungeons for xmog. YOU are unaffected. Do not compare pvp to pve anymnore as pve does not affect your pvp experience. It doesn't even compute. Furthermore, if you do have issues obtaining higher pvp gear due to skill....well they're taking that away this next patch as all you have to do is grind your 1800-2200 conquest points each week to get to 27000 which would take somewhere between 12-15 weeks and you will have all gear available to you.

TL;DR: Don't let how others play and what others do affect your own enjoyment.

P.S. Blizzard won't ever decide that some of its subscribers aren't "worthwhile" to keep around. If you haven't noticed, they want to please everyone. Clearly they can't; otherwise you wouldn't bitch. To that I say, unsubscribe.

Osmeric, the divide between HC and Normal Raiders should have NO effect on your gameplay. You cannot compare the model to pvp because PVP Power and PVP resilience has fixed the usage of PVE gear in PVP problem. Someone doing more dps than you in a Heroic Dungeon or LFR (which I assume is your only level of content) does not affect your game play either. You can complain about normal modes but as it does not directly nor inherently affect you, you should have no issue. Besides, there are still scenarios, dailies(lul), brawler's guild, bgs (I promise there are people just as undergeared/underskilled as you there), farming, RP, Heroic Dungeons, Old dungeons for xmog. YOU are unaffected. Do not compare pvp to pve anymnore as pve does not affect your pvp experience. It doesn't even compute. Furthermore, if you do have issues obtaining higher pvp gear due to skill....well they're taking that away this next patch as all you have to do is grind your 1800-2200 conquest points each week to get to 27000 which would take somewhere between 12-15 weeks and you will have all gear available to you.

TL;DR: Don't let how others play and what others do affect your own enjoyment.

P.S. Blizzard won't ever decide that some of its subscribers aren't "worthwhile" to keep around. If you haven't noticed, they want to please everyone. Clearly they can't; otherwise you wouldn't bitch. To that I say, unsubscribe.

All this complaining is simply further proof that Blizzard could send each and every player a real-life wish-granting flying unicorn carrying a solid gold plate of chocolate chip cookies wrapped in hundred dollar bills, and someone would whine that Blizzard sucks for not letting them choose oatmeal raisin.

Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking

If your guild demands you slip into an elephants butt and force yourself out in a regurgation then you can't blame Blizzard for supplying the elephant.