AP later start

05-16-2009, 08:59 PM

Hi all,

This is my first post here. I guess I am new to AP per se, although I have been doing parts of it with my kids. We did co-sleeping and baby carrying, feeding on demand, no CIO, but at one point, I guess when the kids hit 2years old, the way we chose to discipline them was not the AP one.

Well, long story short, my kids are 5 (DS) and 3 (DD) and I want to completely drop all time out/spanking/counting/rewarding, etc and start positive discipline.

welcome! and congratulations on your decision to continue AP into the later years. the basic premise behind why we do all of the baby b's, babywearing, bfing, etc, is that those things enhance the parent/child relationship and set a foundation for nurturing that relationship well into the future. so, keeping this in mind for WHY we use positive discipline, start reading API's Positive Discipline Principle and get a copy of Attached at the Heart, by our cofounders. these will get you well on your way into the journey of APing the older child. and come back for support and questions!!

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We had our API Live with Martha Sears. She discussed about how she made the transition and how for a long time she said she would stop when she came up with an alternative, but then also noted how it was always being set aside, finding that other way so they came to the conclusion the would stop and work on it from there.

They have a lot of great information in their positive discipline book, and being they were a family that used corporal punishment, it can be easier for families who are taking that step to have that connection.

(Not trying to plug a purchase but it was an amazing interview to listen to for transitioning families and is available on MP3)

I also second Attached At The Heart.

Also tell yourself everything is a learning processes. We all have our own steps to take in life and everything takes time. Some people find it hard at first and if that happens, know we are here to help you as much as we possibly can.

Going off topic for a moment... but wanted to demonstrate that AP is not an all or nothing.

I personally do reward for some things. I know that a lot of people are against it, but when Ronnie had painful bowel movements and became so afraid to use the bathroom, I would get little matchbox cars and little plan toy cars to give to him when he would go on the potty. Eventually he was able to poo without pain and fear and he didn't expect rewards for it each time afterward.

I did reward my children and foster children each week with tickets to purchase items in our pretend store when they were small. I was a single mother with a lot of children and a lot of responsibility around the house and I worked full time. It was what worked for me and I don't look at it as a negative experience and my younger daughter has an excellent work ethic. (It has been harder to keep up with my foster children) The items in our home store were mostly items that the children in the house gave to it that they no longer wanted so the younger kids could "purchase" them and a few "new" items that we were given by other families at swaps and once in awhile I would purchase items on clearance racks. Lots of stuff was things that the kids made.

I did not say you have to do your chores, or assign chores, they were listed and anyone could do what they wanted, including myself. It was how I kept track of what needed to be done. I didn't expect them to do them, but "rewarding" them was my way of saying thank you and it made it entertaining at the end of the week. Yes I got tickets too and I got to "buy" little dolls made out of toilet paper rolls and little bits I still hold onto. It wasn't and isn't for everyone, but it was our thing.

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Thank you all -- will be trying to get a hold of these resources, not gonna be easy, cause we live in China, but the first time we go back to the US or when someone comes to visit, I'll make sure we put in on our shopping list.

OK, so we tried it all day yesterday and I have to say it does work. But i am stuck with a few questions that I cannot think of the right answer for.

1. How do you stop a really unacceptable behaviour? Like hitting or grabbing toys?

So, I have a 3 year old and a 5 year old. One example that happened today. My son was playing with 2 toy golf clubs. My daughter wants one. She asks for it, he says no, she starts crying, he runs away, she gets really upset about it, i tell him to share, he says i got it first. Then my husband walked in and told him if he couldn't share, he couldn't play and took tem away. U do not suppose this is the right way to handle, but what is????

2. How do you make them sit in their car seat?

I mean literally, my 3 year old gets out of her car seat. I have done everything I could to try to buckle her so that she can't get out, but she still can, and sometimes I just look back and see the upper part of her body completely out of the seatbelt. It freaks me out, as people here drive like maniacs, and of course I yell at her and threaten her with a spanking -- which really makes me angry, cause I see how afraid it makes her, but I seriously cannot think of anything else to do when I am driving by myself in the car with the kids. ANy suggestions would be highly appreciated.

Except for this, I have to say that our day has gone a lot better than our usual days, with a lot more cooperative kids.

So this was our first official day of AP

Thank you for your support and suggestions.

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i'm glad you got off to such a good start today!
1) i don't believe in forcing to share. your son had the toys first and was involved w/play. i like to ask the question: would i do this to my spouse? so if my husband was on the computer, would i say, you must get off NOW, b/c my son wants it? no, i'd tell my son that dad is using that now and he can have a turn when dad is finished. forcing sharing will only deter the very thing you want: sharing by consent and joy. you could have told your son, 'your sister would really like to play w/that. would you consider sharing w/her' and if he said no, then you could tell your daughter 'i'm sorry, brother wants to finish playing, when he's done you can have a turn. thank you for being patient.'

2) carseats are really more trouble than they're worth sometimes! just kidding, but they can really drive you batty! can you offer her something fun to do in her seat? books, special car toy, snack? i haven't had this exact issue yet, but i think what i might do w/my kids is pull over every time they get out of their seat and say 'i'm not allowed to drive the car without you buckled in. it's the law and it's unsafe.' i'd hope that they see we're never getting to where we're going b/c they're not strapped in.

it may look something like this : "i see that you are hitting, are you feeling angry that your brother took your toy? you need more time with that toy. please use your words to tell him." then, if the child can't use his words (too angry, not ready, etc) i model words for him, so turn to the offended child "please let your brother finish playing w/the toy"

you can do the same thing w/the hurt child: "i see your brother hit you and you are hurt. you are hurting now and need to feel safe. please tell your brother how you feel." and if they can't, for whatever reason, i model "hitting hurts, please use your words if you need something."

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i'm glad you got off to such a good start today!
1) i don't believe in forcing to share. your son had the toys first and was involved w/play. i like to ask the question: would i do this to my spouse? so if my husband was on the computer, would i say, you must get off NOW, b/c my son wants it? no, i'd tell my son that dad is using that now and he can have a turn when dad is finished. forcing sharing will only deter the very thing you want: sharing by consent and joy. you could have told your son, 'your sister would really like to play w/that. would you consider sharing w/her' and if he said no, then you could tell your daughter 'i'm sorry, brother wants to finish playing, when he's done you can have a turn. thank you for being patient.'

hope this helps

THANKS for that , I am not the OP but sharing is always something I wonderd about, I have never forced her to share so it's good to have it written down in a way that I can relate to and hope to continue using, esp now I have thought about whether I would ask my partner to share etc....makes you think, you wouldn't ask/tell another adult to share so why do it to a child.

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Ok, one more question -- what to do if they are hitting and will NOT stop? Or if kid one grabs something from kid two, kid two starts crying and kid one refuses to give it back?

Thanks We are doing ok most of the time, the kids are extremly happy to cooperate when they are treated with respect, explained what you need them to do and why. I have to say i am very impressed with the results.

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My kids hit each other when they are getting tired. At first I just remind them that hitting is not OK and if it doesn't stop I also say that it looks like they can't play together nicely and they need some time alone and explain that when they play rough they won't be allowed to play with each other. This way I can separate them, I usually hold the hands and walk away with one to another spot of the room, or offer another activity to both at the table that we can do together. Sometimes they continue to play alone where I leave them and it just means that they appreciate the time alone. Other times they find ways to figure out how to communicate and compromise and they will ask each other if they could play together. I find it is a natural consequence if they can't play together they have to play alone.

As for the grabbing, this one get easier as they can communicate better. First I stop the grabber and say he can't grab a toy just like that, he has to ask for it using the words: can I have it please? Then we continue the conversation and it can go in several ways.
1. The answer is no. No is a real valid answer too. It is ok if a kid does not want to give up a toy, perhaps he just started to play with it, or it belongs to him etc. In this case we go on and find out why he can't have the toy, because if we know the reason we can negotiate. "I just started to play with it" goes with "can I have it in 5 minutes please?" "It is mine" goes with "can you share?" or "can I see it? I just want to see it". I make sure that the 'seeing' is really just that, one gets the toy to handle and look and then gives it back pronto. Sometimes this is enough. If it isn't enough we go back to the 5 minute mark, and a reminder that they know how to share.
2. The answer can be "not now but later", then we ask when that would be "can I have it in 5 minutes?" then use a timer.
3. If the answer it yes, they need to say thank you and you are welcome and I tell them how proud I am that they figured it out and how nice to listen when they talk respectfully to each other and use their words.
4. Sometimes I give another option: if you take a toy you must replace it with something else, so offer something you think he will like better. Try to trade for the toy before you take it and again pick something that you think he might find more desirable.
5. Another option is to ask if we could play together. This works well with toys that move: throw or roll a ball back and forth, push a car back and forth so they both play with the toy an equal amount of time.

When my kids were smaller and non verbal I would sit with them and say the words for both and have a conversation that I would do by myself and they would listen. When one cried I would ask t please stop and listen and I can show you how we can ask for something.
Now that they are verbal and I hear they try the options but they get stuck, I ask if they need help. Most time they say yes.
One of my kids is a "sulker" (is that a word?). When I see him walking away with hurt feelings I try to stop him and find out what the problem is and if I could help. I remind him that if he walks away his brother won't know what he wants, it is better to use the words and try to negotiate. Then we go back and I speak for him using the words he cold have used isntead af walking away.

It is ok to walk away sometimes and it is ok when he says he doesn't want to play with his brother. I tell him I don't always want to be with others either and it is nice to have some quiet time alone. When he is ready he can get back to playing with others.