A big point is that this bacterium kills all life, not just humans. I guess Time Lords no longer qualify as life. Hell, even Nardole thought he would be fine because he's not human, but logically having any organic parts should be a reason to worry.

Spoiler:

This probably irked me the most. And they could've easily made it so the Doctor steps out in a (yellow/red space) hazmat suit. (As for keeping Nardole out of the equation: maybe he hits his head or tripped or something on his way to the console.)Moreover, since Nardole lost consciousness as the result of those bacteria, isn't the TARDIS infected now and will still infect the world if the doors are opened anywhere else? Then again, like you said already, Douglas' bacteria are outside the blast area, together with the dramatic mists, so the lab is still crawling with the stuff.

@JorphoThe combination lock is made out of wood. Obviously.They could've made it a cooperative lock anyway: a display with digits on the inside and a pad on the other. Hey, don't give me that look: it's still a better idea than having the screwdriver not work on a combination lock. Also they could've turned it into an incredibly cheesy Chekov's Gun (to be honest, that's why we're watching the show anyway, right?) by showing and telling that procedure during the episode. (And then completely ignore it when both researchers go inside. Even cheesier writing!)

Considering that he's only got co-writer credit, and that his co-writer was Peter "Kill The Moon" Harness, I'd be inclined to not blame him except for one thing: as showrunner he's also responsible for letting Peter Harness have another go. Okay, The Zygon Invasion/Inversion two-parter was pretty good, so maybe letting him back wasn't the worst idea...

The big thing about the episode (apart from the biosecurity issues) is that it establishes the companion's relationship to The Doctor, by some measure that is obviously in the antagonists' gift to confirm via their spooky spotlight thing (if that, rather than their touch, was anything to do with it). And against two very different kinds of 'inadequate' proxies.

Also sets up the next stage in the story arc. For which I would not forgive a bad story, but might just heave one out of Kill The Moon territory of seemingly pointless standalonicity.

Soupspoon wrote:The big thing about the episode (apart from the biosecurity issues) is that it establishes the companion's relationship to The Doctor, by some measure that is obviously in the antagonists' gift to confirm via their spooky spotlight thing (if that, rather than their touch, was anything to do with it). And against two very different kinds of 'inadequate' proxies.

Also sets up the next stage in the story arc. For which I would not forgive a bad story, but might just heave one out of Kill The Moon territory of seemingly pointless standalonicity.

"[love] is a word. What matters is the connection the word implies."

And it's not a great sign when the episode's value is to be largely determined by the quality of the follow-up.

Of course, to be fair, the episode did also do some good things - I like that there is absolutely no significance whatsoever to Erica's handicap, for example. And the way the world ends - not with a bang, but a whisper - is well done: someone overworked makes a mistake and creates something deadly - and then the insane health-and-safety protocols ruin it. And of course the aliens have magic powers that can restore the Doctor's vision at a distance when they needed to use human video cameras to even see what was happening inside the lab (okay, yes, that was before consent was given, which does almost explain it). And apparently I've drifted away from good things again...

Dang, I'd almost completely forgotten about Kill The Moon. Jeez, Season 8 stank to high heaven, didn't it? It's amazing the show survived at all.

Flumble wrote:

Spoiler:

Moreover, since Nardole lost consciousness as the result of those bacteria, isn't the TARDIS infected now and will still infect the world if the doors are opened anywhere else? Then again, like you said already, Douglas' bacteria are outside the blast area, together with the dramatic mists, so the lab is still crawling with the stuff.

I kind of figured that

Spoiler:

the bacteria were self-limiting, and that having devoured Nardole's lungs and Douglas' corpse, they would no longer be a threat. Of course, that would also suggest that having devoured the plants in the lab, they'd be dead there as well. Oops.

Maybe they survive in dirt. Also the TARDIS' magic powers include disinfection. But not disinfection quick enough to stop Nardole from being incapacitated. Or something.

Anyone else think Missy has a remote control for the TARDIS that she used so Nardole would have to have her "fix" it?

Also, my DVR cut off the last couple minutes of the episode, so I have no idea what happened after the Doctor was shocked to find her driving the TARDIS.

Spoiler:

"Seeing her at the console come the end of the episode, the Doctor was, perhaps, a little less grumpy than we might have expected – although he insisted that she had to go back to the Vault.‘Sure,’ was the reply. ‘Just fine. But Doctor, please tell me…really…are you all right?’

Cut to black

from this review. There's a video floating around, but I couldn't find it again.

People need panic...panic in regular draghts. I read about the governments of the world, and I panic daily. It's a heart pumping workout that keeps my cheeks rosy and my vision crystal clear.Thorax:Pigborn (Brooke McEldowney)

Mondasian cybermen to reply to the signal, as we know they're coming back anyway, but nice to see the cameo we did. And/or a foot in the door of yet another Olde Stylee creature, in a series that seems to be replete with them.

I liked it —was half hoping the whole episode would be "doctor who does doctor who", half glad that it turned to serious business after the first couple of minutes.

It's a bummer we only got to see the top and bottom level really: a time-dilated colony ship (next to a sci-fi black hole) lends itself to many plots dealing with sociological phenomena and time monsters. (No, not necessarily weeping angels; come up with something new. Like creatures that can synchronize with the time speed at any deck by touching plot-convenient special wires. Or creatures that can "phase out of time".) The view we got of the bottom floor we got so far was very nice. Not like it's a pretty situation, but thought out and depicted well. Perhaps I'm just nostalgic for Satellite 5.

rmsgrey wrote:I kept trying to remember who Razor reminded me of - and eventually I placed it - Zathras! Not sure exactly what it is, but there's definitely a distant family resemblance between the two...

Appreciating am not only one who notices similar to Zathras. It's most likely his furtive nature and the impression he knows a heck of a lot more than he looks like he should (and apparently with good reason).

The story of my life in xkcdmafia:

Tigerlion wrote:Well, I imagine as the game progresses, various people will be getting moody.

BoomFrog wrote:I still have no idea what town moody really looks like.

rmsgrey wrote:I kept trying to remember who Razor reminded me of - and eventually I placed it - Zathras! Not sure exactly what it is, but there's definitely a distant family resemblance between the two...

Appreciating am not only one who notices similar to Zathras. It's most likely his furtive nature and the impression he knows a heck of a lot more than he looks like he should (and apparently with good reason).

What is and isn't a spoiler can be a touchy subject so I'll just wrap the entire post.

Spoiler:

I really enjoyed it, lots of feels. But then again I am heavily invested in Capaldi as the doctor.My thoughts as things wrap up:

Happy for Bill, she gets to carry on. Unexpected way to get her out of her predicament. I was expecting either the little girl to be be Bill's origin story (shades of Danny Pink) or some sort of Doctorish miracle cure. I found the return of the Pilot satisfying.

Worried about Nardole. He still has to deal with the Cybermen down the road and of course there's Hazran chasing after him. Do I see a Big Finish production in the works?

Missy/The Master. It was good to see John Simm back in all his snarling, sarcastic persona. The contrast between him and how Missy had changed was interesting. Their deaths were a little too convenient, a misfired shot at irony I think, but there was better then having Missy run back and "Stand with The Doctor" That would have been too much.

The Doctor, not really a satisfying ending for him, but of course the ending isn't until the Christmas special so to be expected. A couple good speeches, but I think more due to Capaldi's acting then Moffit's writing. I enjoy Moffit's stories and his writing style. If I fault him for anything is sometimes it feels like he has a list of things to include and rather then edit the list he short shifts the writing. This was especially obvious during the ending scene of the Doctor in the Tardis.

As to not end on a criticism it was very satisfying to me to see how everyone ended up. Now on to Christmas.

People need panic...panic in regular draghts. I read about the governments of the world, and I panic daily. It's a heart pumping workout that keeps my cheeks rosy and my vision crystal clear.Thorax:Pigborn (Brooke McEldowney)

So that's two companions in a row that have died, are resurrected, and posthumously continue to have adventures with another woman. Not that that's a bad thing per se (it certainly beats an Adric-style downer ending), but it does look like Moffat is really running out of ideas, so it's a good thing he's passed the baton.

Worried about Nardole. He still has to deal with the Cybermen down the road and of course there's Hazran chasing after him. Do I see a Big Finish production in the works?

Spoiler:

Probably, but it really bothers me quite a bit that we're probably not going to see how that ends in the series proper. I highly doubt they're going to put it in the Christmas episode, and resolving it in the next series really wouldn't make any sense.

Further points:

Spoiler:

The Doctor is clearly suicidal at this point; he's been heading for a heroic death for a while now, and judging by his refusal to regenerate, it looks like had had hoped it would be a permanent one. I think a big part of the Christmas episode will revolve around getting him out of this depression. I also predict it's going to be a massively destructive regeneration, considering 10 wrecked the TARDIS because he held it off for a few hours, while it's been days for 12.

I sort of hope Chibnall has the guts to cast a woman for the role of 13.

I don't think we've seen the last of the Master, regardless of the "don't bother trying to regenerate" line. Perhaps Missy will undergo a cyber-conversion; that would be interesting.

rmsgrey wrote:I kept trying to remember who Razor reminded me of - and eventually I placed it - Zathras! Not sure exactly what it is, but there's definitely a distant family resemblance between the two...

He was nothing like Zathras! I think you were thinking of Zathras, or maybe (at a push) Zathras... Quite different.

Giant Speck wrote:

Spoiler:

I feel like there are too many character departures all at once and it hurts my heart.

Spoiler:

I was trying to think back to the last big change-of-everything (discounting the 'missing' Mccoy/Mcgann/(Hurt/)Eccleston changeover years)... Then realised that 10/11 was an all-change character+set+atmosphere reset, that I'd already forgotten to remember. Continuity in the reshuffle of Doctor or (in early days, often just one of several) companions was the norm.

So far, Rose (and some family/friends/acquaintances) crosses 9/10 boundary, Clara crosses 11/12, but it's now a 50:50 split in my estimation as to whether the post-Millenial transitions are phased or sudden. Unless you count River, who has foundations either side of the 11 and 10 gap, but discontinuously (and reversedly) so...

moody7277 wrote:

Spoiler:

Which is why the TARDIS took them to a Hoth-like planet?

Spoiler:

To be fair, we only currently know that this spot on this planet is currently Hothlike. If it is indeed a planet (colony ship holograms!). Although maybe it's the one that Scotty and Keenser are banished to?

I (also) thought that...

Spoiler:

...the Little House On The Prairie girl might end up being Bill's mother, but that might be just my head doing some unintentional internal colour-casting. Yet there is some mystery set up (in this single series) which usually indicates a deliberate story-arc...

And, in longer terms, we know that both Moffat and Davies had agreed upon a plausible Doctor/Lobus Caecilius/John Frobisher connection, and if we don't get this revealed in the Christmas episode, we (probably?) never will. So that's surely on the cards,when Bradley's #1 gets to do an (at least?) Two Doctors-like plot. After all, he has to also get onto the dinosaur spaceship to play Solomon...

Regarding some of the Science:

Spoiler:

When we first see the black hole (or at least the event horizon) I was immediately thinking that they'd forgotten about observable time-effects (much as they did in The Impossible Planet) because falling things did not smear themselves to a stop as they approached the phenomena. Yet they fully exploited the (time-like, though not doppler-like1) effects in the actual adventure. Tempting to work out if they mathematically calculated the right middle-deck to choose, given ship'stated lemgths, number of decks, a hypothetical closeness to the EH of an arbitrarily-massive BH, and that there's not enough observable effect between low and high elements of a single deck but there's enough of a discrepency to make five (additional) decks a factor to be concerned about...

But there's more unknowns in that than I'd be comfortable with, to start with.

1 To get an image from the head of the ship to the tail, there must have been much signal-processing to take the days/months-long ultra-low-frequency scanline data and repeat it over and over again, whilst waiting for new updates. But maybe that's something Master#6 worked out for them, during his pre-Razor ruling phase?

The Doctor to discover Missy's body and realise the only way to save her was to regenerate himself and use the energy to trigger her regeneration too.

I'm still expecting him to go to Missy's body and use the power of grayskull regeneration to revive her.And then later, when the Doctor is like, really dying, early Missy will send regeneration energy back because she's a changed man.

rmsgrey wrote:Aside from anything else, how long did the hospital experience between raids on the bridge without any visible change in technology?

Well, if we include the idea that technology improves exponentially, it's not that weird that they got months of scarecrow raids before the main cast shows up, then a couple of days of the "Bill model" and finally proper cybermen raiding the place.

Still, while watching the episode it felt a bit wonky, and I may be altering my recollection of the episode as I'm writing.

No need. It seemed to be sufficient to send up a basic 'patient' or three, and they hadn't even properly developed the pain-dampener/channeller-thing until part way through the intervening decade . It was only when (apparent) need arose in the 'Solar Farm'' level1 that they parallel-evolved up to the (modern version) style.

1 [sic], as that label has a very different meaning in a typical viewer's experience from what it actually meant in this context, so it's one of those times the Tardis's Translation Field has been less than useful to us, even if the on-screen understanding seemed to pass without comment.

...her seemingly being a one-series(/season)-only character not herself a more prominant Arc Element1 sets her aside from the Rose-type (multiseason (multiDoctor!) and universe-revolves-around-her) that many of the other multi-ep companions were, in their own way.

She's perhaps what we'd have wished for Jenny or (once the Adipose ep brought her back, at least) what we might have wished was the absolute maximum we'd see of Donna. Unless she's getting a Cpt. Jackish spin-off (could get a bit adult, and somewhat fanservicey not just to connoisseurs of musical theatre, IYSWIM... Or heavily toned down to a Sarah Jane level), which I could see happening, even if I think I'm being far too imaginative about it.

Thus I expect more. (See footnote.) And if we don't get some reason to see more in the (decently rounded, but swiss-cheesed) Bill characterisation then I'll join you in the Disappointed Corner (with caveats). But first we have to wait six months to absolutely make sure that it's not been just too clever a subterfugious downplay, that'll come good (or 'better') in the end.

Do I hear an "Amen to that!"???

1 Arguably. Though 'twas Bill's 'Billness' that powered the various stories, I admit, with her tripping over Earthly problems like the Pilot puddle and the woodnymphlicethings house, and often forcing the issues off-world by stumbling upon the Mystery and either falling into its scenario to a rescue-worthy degree and/or pushing the Doctor to succumb to his meddling/fixing nature.... And Twelve had seemingly had no adventures prior to latching onto her, in absolute yonks. Nor, it seems, so much development of Missy's character in the prior vault-time as suddenly got whipped up during these dozen episodes (and various half-hinted off-screen adventures with Bill between some of them).We still have no idea (do we?) why the TARDIS brought itself back from Mars for Nardole to require Missy's help. So, yes, you can argue that Bill is the pre-eminent Arc Focus, but so far (and the Xmas Special may well be the moment of revelation) we seem to have nothing like the Bad Wolf/Crack In The Universe/Disappearing Planets theme in the background, awaiting explanation. Nothing quite so (undis)jointed, unless it's megasubtle. So a meringue?

1. The Master being cured of his condition hasn't helped him much. Or perhaps the improvement has been slow.

2. This whole adventure took place because TD wanted to test Missy. He is kind of an arsehole really or at least a tremendous narcissist. He has basically doomed Nardole and ended Bill's corporeal life in order to find something out.And in the end, Missy passed the test, but he'll never know.

3. The First Doctor was a bit of a bastard like that too. They only got stuck at the Dalek city because he sabotaged the Tardis: he was just curious about the city. I've remembered now that Susan's picture was in "Pilot". But she was gone by the time of The Tenth Planet.

OP Tipping wrote:2. This whole adventure took place because TD wanted to test Missy. He is kind of an arsehole really or at least a tremendous narcissist. He has basically doomed Nardole and ended Bill's corporeal life in order to find something out.

There's some truth in that. On the other hand, if he hadn't wanted to test Missy, then it would have happened because he was bored and wanted an adventure. They had the adventure because the Doctor used the standard method of having an adventure - he answered a distress call. And it would have played out slightly differently without Missy along, but only slightly - Bill would still have been the ideal bait for the proto-Cybermen, and the Master would still have wanted to gloat. Maybe the Doctor wouldn't have had the exact same opportunities, but something would have come up...

Maybe things would have ended differently on this specific adventure, but in the end, we'd still be up against a Doctor who's looking for a good final death rather than continuing to fight the good fight indefinitely and having to start a new life with a new face...

Testing Missy was not the problem with this outing; it was the fact that the Doctor's outings, as a matter of routine, involve going to some of the most dangerous places in time and space and seeing if he and his companions can walk away.

At least the Doctor's determination not to regenerate explains why he's not mentioned the possibility a few times this season when it would have resolved an issue - most notably when Bill traded the planet for his life...

moody7277 wrote:So, in universe explanation is that the Doctor was inspired by Missy's most recent regeneration and decided to switch for themself?

Pre-revival canon (Curse Of Fatal Death non-canon excepted, naturally) was that Time Ladies were different from Time Lords in that they got the Woman's Prerogative to 'try on' different new bodies (all still female) each regeneration until they were happy, unlike the Time Lords who just bustled into the (figurative) regeneration wardrobe in the dark and have to do with whatever it was they eventually emeged with. (But then got to go into the actual wardrobe with their eyes wide open, although their sense of style almost always completely myopic - but then, compared with classical Galliffrean robes, one might not wish to complain!)

But then pre-revival canon is notoriously inconsistent. We don't know much about Susan (spin-offs aside) and her Time Nobility. And until we hear about The Corsair's history, a possible throwaway line, very little hint of the shake-ups to lore to come.

Thought: apart from The Corsair, who we don't know enough about, might Regenderation be a side-effect of breaking the 13 reincarnation limit? Technically we might count Thirteen as #14 due to 8.5 (or more, if you assume the Shalka regeneration isn't just supposed to be McGann-ish, though you can at least discount 10b and 10donna and Jenny), but the gift of Gallifrey to Twelve must have done something...

I mean, the 13 limit's always been kinda fuzzy and, the times we've seen time lords go beyond it before the regeneration has always been a bit less "stable" so it resulting in a higher chance of regenderation isn't surprising at all