Revelation; 144,000

Originally posted by Student X
I'm sorry if you feel hostility coming from me. I will try to work of softening my tone. As I said before I consider you a brother, not an enemy like
scientism. Would you consent to making a separate thread for you and I to discuss various issues?

I feel the hostility to my Biblical approach in your determination to combat my Biblical approach. It is the determination, more than the tone as
such, which gives that impression.

The "separate thread" idea will have to be deferred for further consideration.
The title and "rules" would have to be considered.
Also there are time issues; as you've noticed, I'm in the middle of a long-term Revelation project.

Originally posted by St Udio
these sealed people from the 12 tribes are in fact the [Rev 12:1] twelve 'stars' of the crown on the woman,
who flees to the desert for 1,260 days, (the reign of the Beast...)

remember your other thread trying to explain Rev 12 & the woman?

Indeed I do remember that thread.
I interpreted the "woman" as "God's people", and I interpret this group as "God's people", so in that sense I'm happy to identify them.

What I don't do in my approach is to break God's people up into subgroups meeting different fates. My line is simpler- and more natural, in my own
view- than many of the interpretations that are in the field.

This is an interesting thread you have going. I've wondered from time to time about the 144,000. Who they are. Why they are to be selected. What
their role will be. And what exactly the seal is. Not much to offer in the way of theories right now, although the number 11 comes to mind. I'll be
back with more after I re-read the posts.

PS-

The little scroll of the seven thunders has always tripped me up as well. Didn't you have a thread going about that too? I think I remember posting
to it. I could be thinking of some other thread though.

The little scroll of the seven thunders has always tripped me up as well. Didn't you have a thread going about that too? I think I remember posting
to it. I could be thinking of some other thread though.

No, the seven thunders is on my list of things to do later down the line.
It's beginning to look like November, because there is ch11 to come, then a look at God's power in the first five chapters, then a whole cluster on
the Harlot.

Originally posted by Student X
I'm sorry if you feel hostility coming from me. I will try to work of softening my tone. As I said before I consider you a brother, not an enemy like
scientism. Would you consent to making a separate thread for you and I to discuss various issues?

I feel the hostility to my Biblical approach in your determination to combat my Biblical approach. It is the determination, more than the tone as
such, which gives that impression.

Well...in that regard don't feel too singled out. Determination is part of everything I do, it's just that you don't know me well enough to realize
that.

The "separate thread" idea will have to be deferred for further consideration.
The title and "rules" would have to be considered.
Also there are time issues; as you've noticed, I'm in the middle of a long-term Revelation project.

OK. I hope you don't mind if I continue to periodically post in your threads.

The first is to capture the essence. The seal becomes some diagram or symbol that can 'stand in' for the real thing, because the essence has been
perceived or as I think, known to the core.

So perhaps those sealed by God are those known to be Godly in essence. Or those that God KNOWS in an intimate way, deeply.

I know, I know, God is supposedly omniscient. But there are many instances in the Bible where God does not seem to be. (*IE Why be displeased with
man and need a flood if you already knew the nature of man in an omniscient way?) Personally I do not see that as a valid refutation for the power of
God, but rather a testament to how subtle and truly mysterious God can be.

Ok, 2nd kind of seal I know from occult study - is again concerned with the ability to capture such an essence. For instance, King Solomon
conscripted demons to build for him some say. He did this by discovering their names, and sealing them.

It is easy to get lost in a concrete interpretation of that, but perhaps it simply means that he learned how to use the baser natures in men to his
advantage. Who knows? He was wise.

Well, in this case, seals are associated with conscription into service.

And that is what I think these seals are. 144000 will be conscripted into service of God during this time, as God has seen them and he knows their
essence.

I do not think it means only 144,000 go to heaven.
I personally would rather serve God (undesecrated, pure nature to me) even if it requires an annihilation of myself - my ego - than to lay about in
some boring heaven where I feel happy all the time.

Originally posted by hadriana
And that is what I think these seals are. 144000 will be conscripted into service of God during this time, as God has seen them and he knows their
essence.

I do not think it means only 144,000 go to heaven.

Thank you for that contribution.
I'd better make it clear, in the first place, that in my view "144,000" does not need to be taken as a literal number. I thought I was making that
point in the OP by treating it as a symbolic number instead, but quite a few people seem to have missed it.

But if "144,000" refers to the whole of God's people. which is the way I would see it, there's no reason why both meanings can't apply. They can
be conscripted into the service of God now, and go to be with him later.
I can sympathise with anxiety about being "bored in heaven", because the human mind does not know, and could not grasp anyway, what "being with
God" would really be like. We can only asscociate it with "endless time", which, to us, would be boring. But the reality would have to be beyond
our imaginings.

Originally posted by hadriana
And that is what I think these seals are. 144000 will be conscripted into service of God during this time, as God has seen them and he knows their
essence.

I do not think it means only 144,000 go to heaven.

I can sympathise with anxiety about being "bored in heaven", because the human mind does not know, and could not grasp anyway, what "being with
God" would really be like. We can only asscociate it with "endless time", which, to us, would be boring. But the reality would have to be beyond
our imaginings.

I lost my original post, but I do think that it COULD go either way.
As a literal number, 144,000 has magickal correspondence. Mainly I'm thinking of a mental device that Western Magicians use- which resembles some of
the elements in this passage of Revelations. To go all ATS for a second, I've even spotted this same imagery in some UFO abduction accounts, where
abductees were 'shown' things. lol

The 4 angels are the watchtowers - N, S, E, W. They stand over a vault of heaven. (I think of it as space-time itself but it is easier to
visualize as just a big, black table or chess board that lays over creation, or sometimes I see it as a big black table/chessboard that lays over my
own self, where God is above, as my higher power, and I, in my imperfection, am below.

This table is imagined to have 144,00 squares. One uses it like a grid to isolate part of the mind - the ego - so that it CAN communicate with God in
a specific, manner so that the EGO is kept intact so that one CAN comprehend. Small doses, if you like.

I have had a deeply mystical experience that I would call union. You can't talk about it, so I won't. I am convinced of an ultimate omnipotent
presence though- I don't believe, I know - but I can't express it. It isn't boring at all - to be bored, one has to retain themselves, their ego.
It might be the ultimate sacrifice that a human can give.

Sorry, the other way it could go - is that 144,000 was just an easy way of saying a lot. Like....a gazillion. A huge number.
I tend to think, that the fact that it is such a perfect number, speaks more to how fractured our perceptions of God have to be, in order to
comprehend -just a fraction - of how great God really is.

What of the "elect". Perhaps the elect and the 144,000 are one and the same, and there will literally be 144,00 elected by God to fullfill a mission
prescribed by God and dictated to them at the time of their sealing.

Originally posted by hadriana
As a literal number, 144,000 has magickal correspondence. Mainly I'm thinking of a mental device that Western Magicians use- which resembles some of
the elements in this passage of Revelations.

Would it be fair to say that this mental device was actually inspired in the first place by the passage in Revelation?

Originally posted by this_is_who_we_are
What of the "elect". Perhaps the elect and the 144,000 are one and the same, and there will literally be 144,00 elected by God to fullfill a mission
prescribed by God and dictated to them at the time of their sealing.

The term "the elect" usually refers to all those who are going to be "saved".
(The Calvinists love the term, bcause it implies God has made the decision already).
I have no problem identifying the "elect" in that sense with the "144,000", bearing in mind that i don't understand it as a literal number.

OK, they are given a mission. What about "defying the Beast" as a mission? Also, to anticipate a couple of weeks, carrying out the two-fold
"witness" described in ch10?

Or to bring more people to God during the tribulation. Like helping guides or something. People will be saved during the tribulation. At least that is
one point of view I've heard.

I attended a Calvinist "bible church" for a while, but couldn't get my head around the whole predetermination thing. If it's already been
predestined that X number of people are saved, then what's the point of time playing out?

Originally posted by this_is_who_we_are
I attended a Calvinist "bible church" for a while, but couldn't get my head around the whole predetermination thing. If it's already been
predestined that X number of people are saved, then what's the point of time playing out?

To be honest, predestination doesn't suit my own mental outlook either.
I have a suspicion that the whole mode of argument is a symptom of the old human failing of "legalism".
Hence the wry comment about quoting Calvin at the end of the OP.

I want to ask some questions which may have been answered previously. I do apologize, it is not my intent to cause an exercise in futility. I just
find my mind forgets what was said over a few days.

It is obvious that no one knows who the sealed are. I didn't feel through reading that the public as a whole will ever find out who they are because
by then the only ones remaining will be the sealed themselves. I suppose there have been declarations by way of religious groups claiming to be
sealed, but wouldn't they have a more definitive nature of the seal itself to prove it if that were the case?

Am I wrong in assuming that even those that will be sealed are oblivious to it until that moment comes?

Was there an inclusion of the beliefs of JW in that those 144,000 will all be men? and, that they will all be virgins? (according to Jehovah
Witnesses) I don't think I caught that part being mentioned or included in this thread, did I miss that?

Originally posted by hadriana
As a literal number, 144,000 has magickal correspondence. Mainly I'm thinking of a mental device that Western Magicians use- which resembles some of
the elements in this passage of Revelations.

Would it be fair to say that this mental device was actually inspired in the first place by the passage in Revelation?

From what I know - NO. It would make sense, but I am ignoring the elaborate construction of it - and from what I know of that - it is more likely
inspired by/ based on the Hebrew alphabet.

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