Jeffk 1970 wrote:BTW, we are being accused of being an "anti-white, pro-Zionist" Forum by a YouTube denier. I've sent him to this topic to see how "pro-Zionist" we are.

What is his definition of "anti-white?" That's what I don't get about these people. I dispute that there is such a thing as a "white race" much in the same way that there is no "asian race". There is a Slav race, a German race, a Southern European race and an Anglo-Saxon race, but to bottle them together is ignorant of the clear differences between them. To say that there is any such thing as a white race is the same thing as to say that Arabs, Turks, Kurds and Persians all form a "middle eastern race".

Jeffk 1970 wrote:BTW, we are being accused of being an "anti-white, pro-Zionist" Forum by a YouTube denier. I've sent him to this topic to see how "pro-Zionist" we are.

What is his definition of "anti-white?" That's what I don't get about these people. I dispute that there is such a thing as a "white race" much in the same way that there is no "asian race". There is a Slav race, a German race, a Southern European race and an Anglo-Saxon race, but to bottle them together is ignorant of the clear differences between them. To say that there is any such thing as a white race is the same thing as to say that Arabs, Turks, Kurds and Persians all form a "middle eastern race".

That's just my take.

I know this is heresy to Ian Hazard but I don't believe in races. I look at people as parts of ethnic groups or identities. We are all part of the "human race."

Jeff: you are just playing with the words while not understanding the process. Race is a societal construct. It in fact "means" whatever meaning people give to it.

On a scientific level, its fun to watch all too many genetic specialists run away from the subject with statements like yours.... but some well knowns (Dawkins, Wilson) agree "race" as a definable sub-group of a species is determinable in the laboratory. Left alone physically isolated..... the current "races" would separate to different species. THATS HOW EVOLUTION WORKS. World travel and culture is just getting in the way is all.

I hope what you more specifically mean is that todays social construct of race is being homegenized as it should as we are all people with whatever small race based differences there are being entirely negligible compared to our commonality?

Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.Asking: What is the most good for the most people?Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

Thanks 1970...if I had noticed 36 and you were both active I would have quoted him as here:

Jeff_36 wrote:That's what I don't get about these people. I dispute that there is such a thing as a "white race" much in the same way that there is no "asian race". There is a Slav race, a German race, a Southern European race and an Anglo-Saxon race, but to bottle them together is ignorant of the clear differences between them.

Discussing "race" is fun from a psychological linguistic and sociological point of view. Logic too: what definition of race is 36 using to deny a white race while affirming a German race?...... the mind boggles.

Even with the mixing and the unclear cases...there still are many statistical differences between the races. Fact is though that the commonalities still swamp those statistical factoids. Its like men and women. Men are taller than women, but not all men are taller than all women. so many subjects are like that. With men and women, its a general truth, with races...its a statistical fine measurement. HAH==> a general truth can be useful if not misapplied. The statistical fine measurement, almost never useful.

We are all members of 496 different identifiable statistical groups. We are all however: individuals.

Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.Asking: What is the most good for the most people?Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

I just wanted to share this bit about how a couple of Palestinians woke up one morning to witness some new houses in the area, reported this as yet another illegal Jewish settelement only to find it was a film set for a toddler TV show. I wonder what gave it away.

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

"We must bring the Goat of Power to mount BOOOm and destroy it their!"

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

BS. There is no "it" and there is no "meant." Hoomans are free to voyage as far as they desire and as they may choose.

True..... all too many are hobbled by BS notions such as you express.

Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.Asking: What is the most good for the most people?Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

BS. There is no "it" and there is no "meant." Hoomans are free to voyage as far as they desire and as they may choose.

True..... all too many are hobbled by BS notions such as you express.

Relax bitch, it's just a cool Lovecraft quote.

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:I just wanted to share this bit about how a couple of Palestinians woke up one morning to witness some new houses in the area, reported this as yet another illegal Jewish settelement only to find it was a film set for a toddler TV show. I wonder what gave it away.

Oh, yes, I saw it in some B-Tselem etc connected websites. It was official. Never miss a chance to smear a Jew, basic rule.

The star of the show, Yuval Shem Tov, was surprised at the political controversy his show had caused.

“I don’t know the names of politicians. I only know Spongebob,” said Shem Tov in an interview with Israeli radio station Radio 103. “We set up an imaginary village and it turns out that Palestinians saw this and thought that we had set up a settlement.”

Maan News published a follow-up story about the incident, maintaining that the film set was indeed a guise for a land grab.

“Israeli settlers are illegally residing in the area and the local Palestinians had feared more of their village’s lands were being confiscated by Israelis as a result of the movie set,” the news service wrote on Friday.

As President Abbas never misses an opportunity to miss an opportunity. This Haaretz scoop was serious:

- Exclusive: Obama’s Detailed Plans for Mideast Peace Revealed - and How Everything Fell Apart - Documents obtained by Haaretz detail where Netanyahu was willing to compromise on borders, and how the U.S. failed to get Abbas on board over Jerusalem in 2014, Haaretz, 08/06/2017http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.794292

Prof. Asa Kasher, who wrote the IDF’s ethics code, came out against the 18-month sentence of Hebron shooter Elor Azaria on Monday, telling The Jerusalem Post it sets a precedent that “is totally wrong.”

Kasher, speaking to the Post by phone, said the sentence “is too light a punishment,” adding that the maximum punishment for manslaughter is 20 years.

“I think that 18 months, and there will be a reduction by a third for good behavior, making it a year, to come to a square and seeing a terrorist lying there totally ‘neutralized,’ and where commanders are calm... and just killing him with one shot to the head...it’s too light a punishment.”

Azaria was found guilty of manslaughter by a military court in January for killing incapacitated Palestinian attacker Abdel Fatah al-Sharif in Hebron on March 24, 2016.

In February 2017, he was sentenced to 18 months in prison and a 12-month probation thereafter, and demoted from sergeant to private.

According to Kasher, the judges did not address an important ethical aspect of the case – that as a medic, Azaria went against the values of both the IDF and the State of Israel.

“By military regulations, by being a medic, seeing someone lying on the road and been told there is no danger, he should have treated him. Those are our values, our norms. The basic values of Israel and the IDF is to protect basic human dignity, even my enemy whom I may kill sometimes out of self-defense. But when my enemy is lying fatally injured on the road, it is my duty to help him. And he didn’t.”

Im_Not_Creative_Enough wrote:We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

BS. There is no "it" and there is no "meant." Hoomans are free to voyage as far as they desire and as they may choose.

True..... all too many are hobbled by BS notions such as you express.

Relax bitch, it's just a cool Lovecraft quote.

Ok........so Lovecraft is wrong in the same way. Very literate, but textually... wrong.

Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.Asking: What is the most good for the most people?Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

Kleon_I XYZ Contagion wrote:In February 2017, he was sentenced to 18 months in prison and a 12-month probation thereafter, and demoted from sergeant to private.

According to Kasher, the judges did not address an important ethical aspect of the case – that as a medic, Azaria went against the values of both the IDF and the State of Israel.

Well....should a soldier "in war" be treated just the same as a thug completely independently engaged in civilian crime? I think reasonable people can disagree.

Of note:

“By military regulations, by being a medic, seeing someone lying on the road and been told there is no danger, he should have treated him. Those are our values, our norms. The basic values of Israel and the IDF is to protect basic human dignity, even my enemy whom I may kill sometimes out of self-defense. But when my enemy is lying fatally injured on the road, it is my duty to help him. And he didn’t.”

Well, he did worse than "not help." He murdered the guy...but would anyone say it was "in cold blood" or pursuant to the stress of war?

I agree soldiers should be "required" to treat incapacitated enemy with "restraint." But on violation...treating the situation as a civilian crime is not sound policy. The State probably has some liability here as well putting the medic in that situation...all detailed fact dependent with this being about as clear a case as one might imagine for maximal penalty to apply.

Regardless of what anyone thinks is "right".......it would be nice if whatever rule is adopted could be applied uniformly and not vary as such rules always seem to do.

Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.Asking: What is the most good for the most people?Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

Thanks, Kleon. Kasher's statement is very good, IMO, but also pretty obvious.

. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

@Bobbo...Where did you see the case was treated as a civilian case? The soldier was judged by a military court, and i can only conclude that special circumstances were taken into consideration. Nevertheless, the sentence is an outrage! Where i live, people get three times more jail for having smoked some weed.

Balsamo wrote:@Bobbo...Where did you see the case was treated as a civilian case?

Its not the venue for the case but the outrage over the light punishment as compared to the same crime in a civilian court......and thats exactly where the analogy breaks down as this defendant was NOT in civilian activities.

The expert quoted, and the standard of conduct quoted, and evidently your own outrage is all compared to civilian cases?

I'll even add I think that "mere" expulsion from the services would be sufficient punishment in my book..... or maybe not as you don't want soldiers killing prisoners to get out of the service..........ok........good......so that does mean some jail time punishment is required.

But where do you draw the line? Following the outrage...seems to me on any scale that a soldier killing while on duty and in the combat field is NOT as heinous as a civilian murder....and therefore not subject to the same level of penalty. If... justice is to be proportional to the crime.

Now.......if the penalty to be given was the same as a civilian crime...I would not have a problem with that. I just recognize that killing in war is the whole point and expecting soldiers, poorly trained/supervised/fed/rested are different than common thugs. I don't have much sympathy for the victim either....something the law is supposed to ignore.

Pros and Cons to all we do.

Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.Asking: What is the most good for the most people?Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

Jeffk 1970 wrote:The sentence was an outrage. It doesn't help Israel's image in this matter.

The sentence in a sense is worse for this being a military case. It's critically important to have control over your armed forces and it's important that the military adhere to international and national law.

. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

Jeffk 1970 wrote:The sentence was an outrage. It doesn't help Israel's image in this matter.

The sentence in a sense is worse for this being a military case. It's critically important to have control over your armed forces and it's important that the military adhere to international and national law.

I've said this before, both military and law enforcement officials have to exercise discipline, otherwise they are just legalized thugs with weapons.

This light sentence only adds fuel to the fire to the anti-Isreal crowd. It also lessens the incentive for individual soldiers to follow the law if they think they can arbitrarily execute Palestinians and get a slap on the wrist. Worse, they'll wind up as heroes to the whackadoodle crowd who cheers on atrocities committed against Palestinians.

The best thing would be to throw the book at soldiers who commit these acts.

Jeffk 1970 wrote:The sentence was an outrage. It doesn't help Israel's image in this matter.

The sentence in a sense is worse for this being a military case. It's critically important to have control over your armed forces and it's important that the military adhere to international and national law.

There never has been and is not now a single military that punishes killing the enemy anywhere near the same manner that civilian crimes are punished. I mean: can you think of any exception? Its worse than the POLICE...and for the same reasons.

So......critically important?........Yes. To give lip service to. But practice shows otherwise. Evidently, those in power actually making such decisions think that there is offsetting value in keeping the blood hot in their fighting troops. "Kill the Enemy." The general rule controls over the details.

Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.Asking: What is the most good for the most people?Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

Jeffk 1970 wrote: This light sentence only adds fuel to the fire to the anti-Isreal crowd.

..... because the Arabs provide such a moral example?

Jeffk 1970 wrote: It also lessens the incentive for individual soldiers to follow the law if they think they can arbitrarily execute Palestinians and get a slap on the wrist.

Loss of rank and jail time is NOT a slap on the wrist. I assume the guy will be discharged? ................. Ha, ha.............. "feel" the umbrage.

Jeffk 1970 wrote: Worse, they'll wind up as heroes to the whackadoodle crowd who cheers on atrocities committed against Palestinians.

Well......keeping the funding flowing from the USA is an important consideration.

Jeffk 1970 wrote: The best thing would be to throw the book at soldiers who commit these acts.

As stated, I would have no problem with that..................... but why does it NEVER happen?

Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.Asking: What is the most good for the most people?Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

Even philosophically, the sentence is an outrage only if the crime/punishment was "wildly mismatched?"

Why shouldn't a soldier in war be treated differently than a civilian in peacetime????

C'mon boys: argue your case.

Here's another "crime" coming up: that soldier will be punished and discharged...........ie..........no mental health services. THEN......his next crime will be on equal footing.

Just look.

Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.Asking: What is the most good for the most people?Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: This light sentence only adds fuel to the fire to the anti-Isreal crowd. ..... because the Arabs provide such a moral example?

Um, besides the point...What did I say about discipline, bobbo? In this case a soldier shot a man lying wounded in the street. At that point the man lying there is no longer a combatant. Whatever happened next he needed, by international law, medical care. Once he's patched up the Israelis can put him on trial and punish him in whatever way their law allows. I feel the same way regardless of who was laying there and who shot him.

It also lessens the incentive for individual soldiers to follow the law if they think they can arbitrarily execute Palestinians and get a slap on the wrist. Loss of rank and jail time is NOT a slap on the wrist. I assume the guy will be discharged? ................. Ha, ha.............. "feel" the umbrage.

It's a slap on the wrist if the fellow is demoted and serves 12 months in jail. All that for murdering a critically wounded man, that's a bargain.

Worse, they'll wind up as heroes to the whackadoodle crowd who cheers on atrocities committed against Palestinians. Well......keeping the funding flowing from the USA is an important consideration.

It should be.

The best thing would be to throw the book at soldiers who commit these acts. As stated, I would have no problem with that..................... but why does it NEVER happen?

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote: This light sentence only adds fuel to the fire to the anti-Isreal crowd. ..... because the Arabs provide such a moral example?

Um, besides the point...

Well.....perhaps a quibble, but since we're talkin.......who's fire gets fuel added to it other than the Arabs? ((I joked about funding from USA...excellent we both see the humor?....dark as it is)). So, I still think your point is (or should be, or in the best case would be) the Arab reaction? But such brutality is so much of their culture, I don't think they would even notice such cases except as their trained propagandists pick up on it from discussions such as this one? Israel: ALREADY ENGAGED in a hot war. Any more fuel will just have to wait its turn to get burned. So.......more imporant is from the Isreali point of view: what most protects them? Keeping enemy soldiers alive, or their own troops in high alert and motivation? .................. can reasonable people disagree? Or is the subject that concrete?

Jeffk 1970 wrote:What did I say about discipline, bobbo? In this case a soldier shot a man lying wounded in the street. At that point the man lying there is no longer a combatant. Whatever happened next he needed, by international law, medical care. Once he's patched up the Israelis can put him on trial and punish him in whatever way their law allows. I feel the same way regardless of who was laying there and who shot him.

Isn't that exactly what happened? You are just disagreeing with the penalty. Do you know?==>was the penalty softened because of the soldier's individual circumstances or other considerations?

Let me focus in this way: do you see civilian first degree murders EXACTLY the same as a soldier killing in combat? It seems to me BASIC that there is more than one difference. The open question is what difference should it make... if any? If that soldier had been on duty for 48 hours and just saw his good buddies killed 30 minutes prior and he was refused permission to return to base for a good hot tub........would that make any difference?

Jeffk 1970 wrote: It also lessens the incentive for individual soldiers to follow the law if they think they can arbitrarily execute Palestinians and get a slap on the wrist. Loss of rank and jail time is NOT a slap on the wrist. I assume the guy will be discharged? ................. Ha, ha.............. "feel" the umbrage.

It's a slap on the wrist if the fellow is demoted and serves 12 months in jail. All that for murdering a critically wounded man, that's a bargain.

Well........as a simple matter of fact/reality....12 months jail and discharge is NOT a slap on the wrist. so...you are simply disagreeing with the penalty. Thats ok. Do you demand nothing short of the maximum...or actually something inbetween??

The best thing would be to throw the book at soldiers who commit these acts. As stated, I would have no problem with that..................... but why does it NEVER happen?

Of course there are exceptions. I wonder how many of them were "bad" soldiers to begin with? So many variables...............

Edit: I apologize for the quote confusion. Too hard to fix. I'll do better next time.

Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.Asking: What is the most good for the most people?Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

As Trump said, law enforcement officials should let loose on suspects. Same goes for active duty military, I would guess: shoot 'em when they're down.

. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

SM: you are off on your own tangential flight of fantasy. The guy was arrested, jailed, put on trial, found guilty and is being punished. Do you think this constitutes encouragement to the rest of the troops to shoot em when they're down?

I mean........can't we deal with the actual facts rather than metaphors and imaginings?......... and the flat out wrong??

Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.Asking: What is the most good for the most people?Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

SM: you are off on your own tangential flight of fantasy. The guy was arrested, jailed, put on trial, found guilty and is being punished. Do you think this constitutes encouragement to the rest of the troops to shoot em when they're down?

SM: you are off on your own tangential flight of fantasy. The guy was arrested, jailed, put on trial, found guilty and is being punished. Do you think this constitutes encouragement to the rest of the troops to shoot em when they're down?

. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

The thing is, longer jail terms are seen as a deterrent. If that view is true, then shorter jail terms would be seen as less of a deterrent, meaning that any encouragement to commit these crimes will be mitigated to a lesser degree by a lesser sentence.

Gord wrote:The thing is, longer jail terms are seen as a deterrent. If that view is true, then shorter jail terms would be seen as less of a deterrent, meaning that any encouragement to commit these crimes will be mitigated to a lesser degree by a lesser sentence.

bobbo has never heard this concept before

. . . I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason—Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. - John Keats, 1817

You know boys: I'm not even disagreeing with you. I'm just challenging you (all) to broaden your context. Take EXACTLY what you think, and recognize its not the only reasonable position......until you start calling differing opinions "outrageous."

They aren't............. actually.

Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.Asking: What is the most good for the most people?Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

Yes........what do you think making the punishment proportionate to the crime means?

To rephrase for those too close to the exhaust pipe: is a civilian killing a stranger for whatever reasons you have EXACTLY the same thing as a soldier killing in combat?

All to easy to simply repeat a mantra. Try engaging the issue.

Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.Asking: What is the most good for the most people?Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

Gord wrote:The thing is, longer jail terms are seen as a deterrent. If that view is true, then shorter jail terms would be seen as less of a deterrent, meaning that any encouragement to commit these crimes will be mitigated to a lesser degree by a lesser sentence.

A quibble: there is no "encouragement" to commit such crimes. Otherwise....life in jail is an encouragement as its not capital punishment.

In fact, mere capital punishment is an encouragement if you don't torture the criminal first and then disembowel his wife and kiddies before his eyes before drawing and quartering him........theny burying him.........then digging the parts up and hanging them from the city gates.

................and even THAT is ENCOURAGEMENT IF.... you Rick-Roll him while imprisoned.

Gee.....I can't think of any punishment that doesn't encourage the criminals. I guess thats why they do it?

Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.Asking: What is the most good for the most people?Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?