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Humans forgive other humans every day without demanding a "blood atonement" let alone a human sacrifice.

Why can't God do what humans do every day? Why can't God just love and forgive others like any normal person?

It's like saying why can't the law forgive criminals without punishing them with jail terms and even death sentences? Then where is the justice and where is the deterrence for committing crimes? How can God be just if wrongdoers are forgiven scotch free? Why would these beheaded for Christ wanted God to revenge them and they were told to wait a little while in Revelation 6?

Do humans really forgive other humans daily without demanding anything? Don't be deluded, if humans forgive each other everyday without demanding anything, then why are there wars, greed, suits, crimes, scams, fights, jealousies, theft, murders etc.?

Is punishing criminals by the laws not a way of showing love and kindness with the hope that these criminals will amend their ways and turn away from their life of crimes? If criminals are not punished or deterred, I see no way we could reduce crimes and make this world a better and safer place to live, play and work. If criminals go unpunished, why is the justice to the victims? If a parent punished their kids for wrongdoings, is it not a way of showing love?....or should the parents just let them be without punishing them hoping that they will somehow learn and stop their wrongdoings? God being a just God will not let evildoers go without punishing them before forgiving them.

God forgive our trespasses.

Last edited by CWH; 01-31-2012 at 03:15 PM.

Ask and You shall receive,
Seek and You shall find,
Knock and the door will be open unto You.

It's like saying why can't the law forgive criminals without punishing them with jail terms and even death sentences? Then where is the justice and where is the deterrence for committing crimes? How can God be just if wrongdoers are forgiven scotch free? Why would these beheaded for Christ wanted God to revenge them and they were told to wait a little while in Revelation 6?

Why then do Christians get off scot free?

Originally Posted by CWH

Do humans really forgive other humans daily without demanding anything? Don't be deluded, if humans forgive each other everyday without demanding anything, then why are there wars, greed, suits, crimes, scams, fights, jealousies, theft, murders etc.?

Yes, humans really forgive each other. It happens every day. The fact that not everyone is perfect does not impact the point I made. If God can't freely forgive someone, then I can do something good that God cannot do,and that sounds crazy to me.

Originally Posted by CWH

Is punishing criminals by the laws not a way of showing love and kindness with the hope that these criminals will amend their ways and turn away from their life of crimes?

We aren't talking about punishment. I can forgive someone without having to make a human sacrifice. Why can't God?

Originally Posted by CWH

If criminals are not punished or deterred, I see no way we could reduce crimes and make this world a better and safer place to live, play and work. If criminals go unpunished, why is the justice to the victims?

So you are saying that the Gospel promotes crime? Or are you denying the Gospel, and saying that God can't forgive sin but has to put all sinners in jail?

Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.

Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

No, Christians will be equally punished if they have done something wrong but if they repent then there is a chance of forgiveness same as with Gentiles.

Yes, humans really forgive each other. It happens every day. The fact that not everyone is perfect does not impact the point I made. If God can't freely forgive someone, then I can do something good that God cannot do,and that sounds crazy to me.

Many humans do not really forgive each other if not why are there so many conflicts, quarrels, fights, suits among each other? And it happens everyday, which is why Jesus advocates that we should love one another. God have forgiven everyone of us everyday without you even knowing. If he is an unforgiving God, we would have been punished many times over by the wrongs that we have done in our lives e.g. killed for lying, killed for stealing, killed for not loving God, killed for not keeping the sabbath, killed for not respecting our parents. God didn't do that but is very patient hoping that one would repent for their sins and return back to Him for forgiveness.

We aren't talking about punishment. I can forgive someone without having to make a human sacrifice. Why can't God?

God don't demand human sacrifice; show me a verse that said so. God punished humans with death for their evil doings is not equated with human sacrifice. Is capital punishment a human sacrifice? or is it used by the law as a form of meting justice? If not, why the determination to kill Osama, Saddam, Hitler, terrorists for the things that they have done?

So you are saying that the Gospel promotes crime? Or are you denying the Gospel, and saying that God can't forgive sin but has to put all sinners in jail?

Gospel don't promote crimes; it's false Christians that abuse the Gospel and Christianity for their selfish agendas that created the crime. People may use the word of God to threaten or force someone or lead someone to scam; same as some terrorists that abuse Islam or Islamic teachings for their own selfish agendas. God will forgive sins if people repent even though they have died but forgiven sin cannot go without punishments. Did God punished David or Moses for their sins before He forgave them? Certainly Yes. Death in which everyone of us one day will have to face is a form of punishment for our sins. It is the same as giving us the death sentence the moment you were born. This happened to Adam and Eve for committing sins and it goes for their generations (mankind) as well. That is what is meant by "everyone have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".

Would you want God to forgive our sins without getting punished? is the same as saying (to the national law of justice) that you want all criminals to go unpunished. Where is your sense of Justice? Do you want criminals to go unpunished if they robbed, hit and raped you?

May God forgive us.

Last edited by CWH; 01-31-2012 at 07:11 PM.

Ask and You shall receive,
Seek and You shall find,
Knock and the door will be open unto You.

No, Christians will be equally punished if they have done something wrong but if they repent then there is a chance of forgiveness same as with Gentiles.

Have you ever heard of something called "the Gospel"?

Originally Posted by CWH

Many humans do not really forgive each other if not why are there so many conflicts, quarrels, fights, suits among each other? And it happens everyday, which is why Jesus advocates that we should love one another. God have forgiven everyone of us everyday without you even knowing. If he is an unforgiving God, we would have been punished many times over by the wrongs that we have done in our lives e.g. killed for lying, killed for stealing, killed for not loving God, killed for not keeping the sabbath, killed for not respecting our parents. God didn't do that but is very patient hoping that one would repent for their sins and return back to Him for forgiveness.

So now you say that God has forgiven everyone. Great! Then we don't need religion.

Originally Posted by CWH

God don't demand human sacrifice; show me a verse that said so. God punished humans with death for their evil doings is not equated with human sacrifice. Is capital punishment a human sacrifice? or is it used by the law as a form of meting justice? If not, why the determination to kill Osama, Saddam, Hitler, terrorists for the things that they have done?

Have you ever heard of something called "the Gospel"?

Originally Posted by CWH

Gospel don't promote crimes; it's false Christians that abuse the Gospel and Christianity for their selfish agendas that created the crime. People may use the word of God to threaten or force someone or lead someone to scam; same as some terrorists that abuse Islam or Islamic teachings for their own selfish agendas. God will forgive sins if people repent even though they have died but forgiven sin cannot go without punishments. Did God punished David or Moses for their sins before He forgave them? Certainly Yes. Death in which everyone of us one day will have to face is a form of punishment for our sins. It is the same as giving us the death sentence the moment you were born. This happened to Adam and Eve for committing sins and it goes for their generations (mankind) as well. That is what is meant by "everyone have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".

So God doesn't forgive, he just punishes? That seems to follow from what you said since there is no need to be "forgiven" after you have been punished, right?

Originally Posted by CWH

Would you want God to forgive our sins without getting punished? is the same as saying (to the national law of justice) that you want all criminals to go unpunished. Where is your sense of Justice? Do you want criminals to go unpunished if they robbed, hit and raped you?

So all Christians need to get "punished" for all their crimes before God can "forgive" them? I've never heard a Christian teach that before.

Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.

Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

And have you ever heard of the Gospel also? The Gospel means Good News of salvation for all mankind, not just for the Jews.

So now you say that God has forgiven everyone. Great! Then we don't need religion.

I see religion like an instruction manual which instructs you how best to get the fullest from the product that you bought.... how to best operate it, what to avoid, how to trouble shoot, where to get support etc. It is not for me to judge; if I see someone praying to the Sun or the Moon God or the Tree, I see him praying indirectly to the Creator Christian God who created the sun, the moon or the trees. In other words, whatever one is praying to or whatever religion that one believes, indirectly and ultimately refers to the Christian Creator God. Whether ultimately one is forgiven or saved praying indirectly to the Christian Creator God, although I know is wrong but is not for me to judge. Anything is possible with God.

Have you ever heard of something called "the Gospel"?

Are you doubting my belief?

So God doesn't forgive, he just punishes? That seems to follow from what you said since there is no need to be "forgiven" after you have been punished, right?

Everyone except Enoch and Elijah in the Bible was punished with death including the apostles. Why didn't Jesus just prevented the apostles from death and just sent them up to heaven? Because they need to suffer from the wages of sin which is death (Romans) "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". People will be forgiven when they have repented and where in the Bible did it says that people will go unpunished for their sins?

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

So all Christians need to get "punished" for all their crimes before God can "forgive" them? I've never heard a Christian teach that before.

Well, now you heard it. Yes, show me which person in the Bible who have not been punished by God for their wrongdoings. Death have been used by God as a punishment for our sins since the time of Adam and Eve.

May God Bless our souls.

Last edited by CWH; 01-31-2012 at 08:25 PM.

Ask and You shall receive,
Seek and You shall find,
Knock and the door will be open unto You.

And have you ever heard of the Gospel also? The Gospel means Good News of salvation for all mankind, not just for the Jews.

What are you talking about? I never said anything about the Gospel being just for the Jews. You comment makes no sense to me.

Originally Posted by CWH

So now you say that God has forgiven everyone. Great! Then we don't need religion.

I see religion like an instruction manual which instructs you how best to get the fullest from the product that you bought.... how to best operate it, what to avoid, how to trouble shoot, where to get support etc. It is not for me to judge; if I see someone praying to the Sun or the Moon God or the Tree, I see him praying indirectly to the Creator Christian God who created the sun, the moon or the trees. In other words, whatever one is praying to or whatever religion that one believes, indirectly and ultimately refers to the Christian Creator God. Whether ultimately one is forgiven or saved praying indirectly to the Christian Creator God, although I know is wrong but is not for me to judge. Anything is possible with God.

Great! So like I said, we don't need religion.

Originally Posted by CWH

Have you ever heard of something called "the Gospel"?

Are you doubting my belief?

I'm pointing out that your beliefs have little or nothing to do with traditional Christianity.

Originally Posted by CWH

So God doesn't forgive, he just punishes? That seems to follow from what you said since there is no need to be "forgiven" after you have been punished, right?

Everyone except Enoch and Elijah in the Bible was punished with death including the apostles. Why didn't Jesus just prevented the apostles from death and just sent them up to heaven? Because they need to suffer from the wages of sin which is death (Romans) "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". People will be forgiven when they have repented and where in the Bible did it says that people will go unpunished for their sins?

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

If "people will be forgiven when they have repented" then there is no need for any religion like Christianity to tell them that. Good people who know nothing of Christ repent of their sins every day.

You ask "where in the Bible did it says that people will go unpunished for their sins?" Oh ... I don't know .... maybe everywhere!

It's called the "Gospel" - it is the teaching that Christ took the punishment for the sins of the believe so they wouldn't be punished. That is the central teaching of Christianity as far as I know. I am dumbfounded that you don't seem to be aware of it.

Originally Posted by CWH

So all Christians need to get "punished" for all their crimes before God can "forgive" them? I've never heard a Christian teach that before.

Well, now you heard it. Yes, show me which person in the Bible who have not been punished by God for their wrongdoings. Death have been used by God as a punishment for our sins since the time of Adam and Eve.

Great! Now there is one million + 1 religions on the planet. What are you gonna call your religion? Cheowism?

Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.

Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

Yes, but I do not think humans forgive in the sense of forgetting and never calling to mind. Our minds have the capability of remembering what we have done every minute of our lives and we cannot erase what is in our memory. We do not forget, we just fail to recall.

I am crossing over from my thread in which I am saying (as I understand the Bible) that Jesus is not God. I expect you are observing before wading in on my thread. I knew it would be contentious.

Your post is in a similar vane, dealing with human nature which Jesus had before he was resurrected and transformed.

For the benefit of those new to the forum (like me), I will give a summary without copying the references as to why I say Jesus was a man.

I have no difficulty seeing how in God's plan (as God foretold through the prophets) Jeus was born of a human (it was God by His power which fertilized the egg of Mary). Jesus grew up as a boy to become a man and suffered from colds and chills just the same as ourselves.

From the age that Jesus knew he had to be about his Father's business, Jesus was preparing. We are told; he grew is wisdom and stature and found favor with God and man. Jesus was God's only begotten Son of whom God said (at the time Jesus was given (had unlimited access to) God's power (Holy Spirit). God spoke from the clouds saying; "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, hear him."

God would have renmained close to His Son, always observing him and we know that Jesus led a life of prayer in which Jesus communicated to his Heavenly Father. Jesus was thirty when he started his 3.5 year ministry. It took him that long to prepare and as we know, Jesus was well versed in the Scriptures that have become our Old Tesatment and Jesus beleived them and would recall them. I expect his grasp of the scriptures was better than most, yet he had to learn them. The moment it said that Jesus' nature was the same as God, it is fudging the matter. God does not lie, he does not need to fudge a matter, God had confidence that if he gave rise to a Son born of a virgin, His Son would do it; that is live a sinless life and doing His will. God has been vindicated, do not let us take away the glory and that is due to Jesus for his achievement.

Jesus grew up as a man having to battle with human nature by which is disposed to sin, hence this explains the concept of the devil which Jesus destroyed in the flesh. God is vindicated from anyone saying it was impossible for a man (or woman) to live a sinless life. To say that Jesus was anything but a man is denying him the victory that was his.

Jesus was close to God in prayer and God did everything Jesus requested of Him. When Jeus called on God's power people were raised from the dead and the storms calmed. It appeared as if Jesus was God, and why should not anyone think this seeing it was God at work behind the scenes. It was God's power at work; I doubt Jesus had to have any knowledge of the science of how the Holy Spirit operated; it was sufficient that he trusted God not to let him down when Jesus called upon his Heavenly Father to grant Jesus his requests whenever asked. This does not change the nature of Jesus (the man), or his relationship to God. There is always this relationship of God (the Father) and Jesus (the Son), never a direct equality. Jesus was given many titles. Even God gave His Son the title of God, but that does not change the actual relationship or nature of the two of them.

We have to acknowledge that Jesus could have failed; what then? This is what is so marvellous; despite all the temptations including having the power of God at his disposal to use for his own gains, Jesus never gave it. The temptations are easy to explain and does not require an external devil as wrongly understood; all the teptations were from within generated by his own thoughts and so he had to overcome and suppress those thoughts.

Jeus was dead in the tomb for 3 days. His body died, hence the mortal nature that Jesus bore. It was God (his Heavenly Father that raised him). Jesus did not raise himself, though he had complete confidence that his Heavenly Father would raise him. Now that Jesus is raised, God has given him and immortal body which is incorruptible and like the body that will be given to believers who are judged worthy. Hence Jesus is the firstfruits and is like those who will be resurrected and given immortality.

Right at the very end after Jesus has set up the Kingdom and finally destroyed the last enemy which is sin and death, Jesus hands the kingdom over to his Heavenly Father and becomes subject to Him. Jesus shows by this that he is subject to his Heavenly Father just the same as all the brethren of Jesus shall be in the kingdom of God to come on earth (The Good News).

So then, Jesus who I maintain was a man when he was first on earth following his birth (genesis - coming into existence) and who was subsequently raised from the grave and given an immortal body and given the highest position in Heaven (at God's right hand) is never equal to God. Therefore, humans with mortal bodies can never be greater than God or greater in status to that of Jesus.

I respect everyone's sincere belief's and thanks to you Richard for putting up this platfrom. You were right to reject Christendom in the way that it is generally taught. The true Jesus and the true God of the Bible is not being taught. There are a lot of lies being taught and misunderstandings put forward as truth which are lies. This is the same as the children being taught lies in school from the text books that say man came from a rock 400 million years ago. I hear the same phrase repeated in the nature documentaries on the TV. People are conforming to the state religion that Evolution has become. They spoutthe lies without understanding and without investigating for themselves and finding the truth. I expect there is another thread on Evolution in the archives. Maybe the subject is due for another airing.

Yes, but I do not think humans forgive in the sense of forgetting and never calling to mind. Our minds have the capability of remembering what we have done every minute of our lives and we cannot erase what is in our memory. We do not forget, we just fail to recall.

Hey there David,

Forgetting in the sense you suggest has nothing to do with the concept of forgiveness. If God is anything like what Christians teach, then he certainly cannot "forget" in the literal sense that you suggest, but that doesn't stop them from saying that God forgets our sins, and neither does it stop the Bible writers from saying the same thing:

Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Originally Posted by David M

I am crossing over from my thread in which I am saying (as I understand the Bible) that Jesus is not God. I expect you are observing before wading in on my thread. I knew it would be contentious.

It's not only contentious, it is an ancient dispute amongst Christians. It seems pretty obvious that folks just believe what they want since both claim to be basing their claims upon the Bible.

Originally Posted by David M

Your post is in a similar vane, dealing with human nature which Jesus had before he was resurrected and transformed.

Really? I don't see how my question relates, since I am asking about why God can't forgive like people do. It has nothing directly to do with the question of the divinity of Jesus as far as I can tell.

Originally Posted by David M

For the benefit of those new to the forum (like me), I will give a summary without copying the references as to why I say Jesus was a man.

OK - but that's not the topic of this thread. We should probably continue this conversation in the thread you started.

Originally Posted by David M

I have no difficulty seeing how in God's plan (as God foretold through the prophets) Jeus was born of a human (it was God by His power which fertilized the egg of Mary). Jesus grew up as a boy to become a man and suffered from colds and chills just the same as ourselves.

From the age that Jesus knew he had to be about his Father's business, Jesus was preparing. We are told; he grew is wisdom and stature and found favor with God and man. Jesus was God's only begotten Son of whom God said (at the time Jesus was given (had unlimited access to) God's power (Holy Spirit). God spoke from the clouds saying; "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, hear him."

God would have renmained close to His Son, always observing him and we know that Jesus led a life of prayer in which Jesus communicated to his Heavenly Father. Jesus was thirty when he started his 3.5 year ministry. It took him that long to prepare and as we know, Jesus was well versed in the Scriptures that have become our Old Tesatment and Jesus beleived them and would recall them. I expect his grasp of the scriptures was better than most, yet he had to learn them. The moment it said that Jesus' nature was the same as God, it is fudging the matter. God does not lie, he does not need to fudge a matter, God had confidence that if he gave rise to a Son born of a virgin, His Son would do it; that is live a sinless life and doing His will. God has been vindicated, do not let us take away the glory and that is due to Jesus for his achievement.

It seems you skipped a beat here. Your assertion that it would be "fudging the matter" to say "Jesus' nature is the same as God" is a huge non-sequitur. And then to "refute" that point by merely asserting that "God does not lie" leaps over all the Biblical reasons Christians have for believing in the Trinity. It makes it seem like you have not studied the history of this question much at all. There was a HUGE debate about the relationship between the Father and the Son way back in the 4th century. Your position lost that debate. Maybe they were wrong, and you are right, but merely asserting "God does not lie" does not help anyone understand the issues involved. And as far as I can tell, you have not dealt with the actual reasons that the early church finally concluded that the Bible teaches the divinity of Christ.

Originally Posted by David M

Jesus grew up as a man having to battle with human nature by which is disposed to sin, hence this explains the concept of the devil which Jesus destroyed in the flesh. God is vindicated from anyone saying it was impossible for a man (or woman) to live a sinless life. To say that Jesus was anything but a man is denying him the victory that was his.

That's why the Doctrine of the Trinity plainly states that Jesus was 100% human. The fact that he also is 100% divine is accepted as a mystery. And when dealing with the nature of God, it is not an unexpected thing to encounter a mystery or two.

Originally Posted by David M

Jesus was close to God in prayer and God did everything Jesus requested of Him. When Jeus called on God's power people were raised from the dead and the storms calmed. It appeared as if Jesus was God, and why should not anyone think this seeing it was God at work behind the scenes. It was God's power at work; I doubt Jesus had to have any knowledge of the science of how the Holy Spirit operated; it was sufficient that he trusted God not to let him down when Jesus called upon his Heavenly Father to grant Jesus his requests whenever asked. This does not change the nature of Jesus (the man), or his relationship to God. There is always this relationship of God (the Father) and Jesus (the Son), never a direct equality. Jesus was given many titles. Even God gave His Son the title of God, but that does not change the actual relationship or nature of the two of them.

None of those points are relevant to the historical development of the doctrine of the Trinity. You need to address the reasons that Christians developed the doctrine. They didn't just "make it up" our of whole cloth, you know. They were trapped in a dilemma of conflicting verses in the Bible - some that indicate Jesus was a man, and some that indicate he was God incarnate. All the other talk is pretty irrelevant. You need to deal with the facts that gave rise to the doctrine.

And the "science of how the Holy Spirit operates?" I didn't know there was such a thing. Where did you learn this "science?"

Originally Posted by David M

We have to acknowledge that Jesus could have failed; what then? This is what is so marvellous; despite all the temptations including having the power of God at his disposal to use for his own gains, Jesus never gave it. The temptations are easy to explain and does not require an external devil as wrongly understood; all the teptations were from within generated by his own thoughts and so he had to overcome and suppress those thoughts.

Well, the Bible presents the devil as a real person who tempted Christ. It's fine if you want to say that language is just metaphorical for internal personal struggles, but then you would do well to admit that your interpretation is a private interpretation. This just goes to show how the Bible is useless to determine truth. Everyone interprets things however they want. It's nothing but vain words with no way to test for truth.

Originally Posted by David M

Jeus was dead in the tomb for 3 days. His body died, hence the mortal nature that Jesus bore. It was God (his Heavenly Father that raised him). Jesus did not raise himself, though he had complete confidence that his Heavenly Father would raise him. Now that Jesus is raised, God has given him and immortal body which is incorruptible and like the body that will be given to believers who are judged worthy. Hence Jesus is the firstfruits and is like those who will be resurrected and given immortality.

Now you are directly contradicting the Bible which says that Jesus raised himself:

John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

This is the problem with the doctrines you are promoting. They contradict or disregard the plain meaning of many verses.

Originally Posted by David M

Right at the very end after Jesus has set up the Kingdom and finally destroyed the last enemy which is sin and death, Jesus hands the kingdom over to his Heavenly Father and becomes subject to Him. Jesus shows by this that he is subject to his Heavenly Father just the same as all the brethren of Jesus shall be in the kingdom of God to come on earth (The Good News).

Relationship within the Godhead does not prove your point.

Originally Posted by David M

So then, Jesus who I maintain was a man when he was first on earth following his birth (genesis - coming into existence) and who was subsequently raised from the grave and given an immortal body and given the highest position in Heaven (at God's right hand) is never equal to God. Therefore, humans with mortal bodies can never be greater than God or greater in status to that of Jesus.

Why then does the Bible equate Christ with God as Creator?

Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 ∂ Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

I get the impression that you have not dealt with the actual reasons Christians believe in the Trinity.

I'm getting the impression that you have received your anti-Trinitarian doctrines from some religious group like the Worldwide Church of God. Is that correct?

Originally Posted by David M

I respect everyone's sincere belief's and thanks to you Richard for putting up this platfrom. You were right to reject Christendom in the way that it is generally taught. The true Jesus and the true God of the Bible is not being taught. There are a lot of lies being taught and misunderstandings put forward as truth which are lies. This is the same as the children being taught lies in school from the text books that say man came from a rock 400 million years ago. I hear the same phrase repeated in the nature documentaries on the TV. People are conforming to the state religion that Evolution has become. They spoutthe lies without understanding and without investigating for themselves and finding the truth. I expect there is another thread on Evolution in the archives. Maybe the subject is due for another airing.

All the best

David

Well, you are not the first to confirm that Christianity in general is false and filled with lies, liars, charlatans, and similar crap. That's one of the most interesting things to arise from my public rejection of the faith. Practically everyone says that yes, Christianity as seen in most churches is crap, but then they go on and suggest that I should convert to their odd little variation of Christianity that they think is the "real truth."

Could you post a link to the source of the claim that there are "text books that say man came from a rock 400 million years ago"? I've never heard such an absurd claim, and I'd really like to verify it.

And evolution is not a religion. It's just a fact sitting atop a mountain of evidence. I'd love to discuss this with you if you are so inclined.

Thanks for taking the time and effort to share you views with us. I find them fascinating and look forward to further discussion.

Great chatting!

Richard

Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.

Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

Atonement is more than just forgiveness

Humans forgive other humans every day without demanding a "blood atonement" let alone a human sacrifice.

Why can't God do what humans do every day? Why can't God just love and forgive others like any normal person?

We need more than forgiveness, we need grace. Grace not only forgives sin but it breaks the power of sin and delivers us from a spiritual authority. If you dwell in sin you are denying God's grace in your life. Itís not just a matter of forgiveness, Richard.

Man transgressed while in the body and therefore salvation and deliverance had to come "in the body" by a body (sinless). Man was delivered into Satan's hand by choosing to believe his lies and thus turn away from deriving his life from God. He trespassed God's commandment and became a captive of Satan. Man would need a Deliverer, the Son of Man (in the body) would be that Deliverer.

There was more than just transgression that took place and there is more than just forgiveness that is needed. The atonement is that provision.

There is the power of sin that needs to be broken and guilt that needs to be dealt with also. And like I said many more things that were provided with the atonement, but I will try to not write a book here.

Man had been captured by another spiritual authority, and he was a slave to sin.

God Himself knew that there was no one qualified to take the most serious consequence for sin but Himself.

This is in line with His nature and character and fulfills His attributes of mercy and justice.

Sin and death both took place in the body and therefore salvation must take place in the body, too. Why? Because sin must be condemned/judged in the body and overcome in the body if we are to be joined with Christ in His death and be raised in newness of life all while we are in the body.

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

God provided the substitutionary life. HIMSELF! I have no problem with that! His Life dwelling in the Believer is much, much more than just forgiveness.

Leviticus 17:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
...
11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Life is in the blood and a sinless life was required to atone for sinful lives ('...the just for the unjust'). God told us this early on.

Leviticus 17:11 "...for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul."?

This reminds me of a controversy that went around in the 1980s revolving around E.W Kenyon and some others regarding the topic of 'Jesus Dying Spiritually'.

The controversy goes to the heart of 'by what are we redeemed'? Jesusí physical or spiritual sufferings?
Kenyon said that Isaiah 53 is all about spiritual sufferings. Yet that philosophy undercuts all physical provision and needs and the sin that 'dwells in the body'. If redemptive suffering is spiritual then it would mean that Jesus would have to die spiritually.

Letís look at these two teachings. I think it will tie into your question about the atonement.

Teaching of Spiritual Suffering or Jesus Died Spiritually

The redemption of man is not in the physical realm, but in the spiritual. Which would mean that sin is only in the spiritual realm.

This would also mean that the work of Jesus was not finished on the cross. Compare

This belief says that Man is redeemed by the spiritual sufferings of Jesus in Hell. Which would also mean that the Father turned Jesus over to the Devil.

Further, it would have to mean that Jesus actually became a sinner and died spiritually. The death He died, He died spiritually further denoting that the Devil possessed His soul. (1 Pet 3:18 'the just for the unjust')

Jesus had to be born-again and justified after paying the price in hell (for sin).

This teaching states that the Church is then born out of the spiritual sufferings of Jesus in Hell. (Act 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.)

Jesus was in hell suffering and once we were justified He was raised from the dead. We had to wait 3 days for our justification. (Jesus was with the Father when He died. Luke 23:46).

Scriptural Basis for Redemption/Bodily Atonement

Atonement came through a physical body and redemption is only received while we are in our body. (Hebrews 10)

If sufferings were only spiritual then there was no need for Jesus to become a man.

'He bore our sins in His body' Heb 10:5, 10; Romans 3:25

Spiritual suffering leaves out the blood. 1 John 1:7

'Every man shall give account to God for the things he did in the body' (1 Pet 2:24)

So, sin must be dealt with in the body.

The work of redemption was finished on the cross.

Redemption does not come thru suffering but through the propitiation of His Body. (Roman 3:25, 'through faith in His blood')

Jesus did not become a sinner in order to bear our sins. (Isa 53:4,6,12; II Cor 5:21)

He wasnít made a sinner. He carried our sins.

Jesus was not made sin literally, He took our place.

Jesus did not die spiritually. He never disobeyed Godís will. He even offered the thief on the cross, paradise.

Jesus Christ was righteous on the cross. He was a holy offering.

Lev 7:6 Every male among the priests shall eat thereof: it shall be eaten in the holy place: it is most holy.

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Where did His spirit go?

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

So, how is man redeemed? Do we look to the cross or to hell? Calvary is the place to look to. The redemption of man came through the body of Jesus. Sacrifice for sin has always come through a body, a living being (lamb/Lamb of God). The blood in the body is the element of atonement. God knew that sin in the body must be dealt with and His desire was that we would be joined with Him in His death and raised with Him in newness of life (resurrection). So we see that redemption does not come through spiritual sufferings and that God only required a physical sacrifice and that Jesus bore our sins in His body not His spirit. By His wounds we are healed!
Humans cannot give other humans all the benefits that come with the Atonement. Men cannot give other men a new heart, power over sin, cleansing from guilt, and the nature and character of God.