Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the
world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to
over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a
wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history,
humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced
features available, you will need to register first. Registration is
absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Dan Harden wrote:
Otherwise all the belly-breathers would be some major martial people- which they are not.

Hmmmmm. "Ki" is about breathing. Kokyu doesn't have to be about breathing, but you never develop much power in kokyu without the breath training. I don't know of any great Asian martial artists that were NOT breathers, Dan.

Never said they were the same. and you can call the methods and results whatever you wish. And if you are inferring all great asian martial artists are just belly or diaphram breathers...... you would be wrong. There is more to it than that. And since you know that it is true..... it leaves your statement to speak for itself.

Quote:
Motion in stillness and stillness in motion is a staple of some schools of Daito ryu.

Strange, it's a common thing in Chinese martial arts... the exact same thing. Yet you say DR is purely Japanese!!!

Regards,

Mike

***********************************

Actually.and for about the fourth time I have told you (why aren't you hearing me?)
1. I was open to considering that it all came from China when we first talked on this topic
2. Then after reading more I said I now believe it did come frm China
3. Then we discussed its influence on Ueshiba-with me stating that much of what ueshiba was talking about was in fact in Daito ryu all along.
4.You just didn't know about it.

Case in point was the stick push and/or manipualtion work. Work which has a photographed, and documented hereitage through Takeda to Sagawa to Kodo and Ueshiba. Something which really isn't open for debate..Its simply there. Whether it was widely known or not really doesn't matter. and assuming he got "it" from purely chinese origins is erroneous. Stan addresses this well and dismissed the Chinese idea through his excellent research. Which should lead you back to considering DR as a source ... or maybe not.
How complete or encompassing the internal work of two schools of DR who have it as compared to Chinese stuff I don't know-but then again -neither do you.....yet Honest and earnest researchers will leave that door open for further exploration.

Personally, I think you're misunderstanding what the breathing is about, Dan, but that's just my opinion.

Well thats declarative. So I will give you another option
Maybe you are not fully understanding me. Maybe I have not been forth coming, but then neither are you.
Tell me what you do that is the declarative "the breathing."

What I do with breathing has little to do with just using the typcial relaxation, abdominal breathing thing, although its a part and sometimes its opposite to what many would think to do voluntarily-though they do in fact do it at times. The belly-breathing limitations comment was obvious for most people reading. Other things are more like breathing with your whole body. I tried to explain this to you once with what I do with a massage technique and how we use it against punching and kicking. Something which at least one reader here knows I do from last year. And I won't go into any detail of what I call loading....

Merry Christmas and.good luck in your training.

Rob
I opened that file showing the squating exercise. You should know that there are core trainig exercises that echo these for deep squats
One of which and I am practically quoting....
is to keep the back line straight, the tail bone tucked in and your head up. Lift one leg and extend it in front of the other. balance on your foot and let the quads take the load as you squat. Sink to the floor till you think you will fall down and extend your arms out. let your arm extension make you balance so you don't fall. lift and settle while keepin the knee and shin as straight as possible

Oh..you have to do them on a stair or one of those step aerobic thingy's, otherwise your heel on the extended leg hits the floor
I can tell you that no one I know can do these with anything more than 10lb weights. They kill me!!
I don't think they have a clue as to what other benefits are derived from it. I was intrigued by something you said about tension which I will P.M. you on. I think it is related to what I call loading. I reffered to one of these earlier as a method I do as a "sneezing" example with stick.
Cheers
Dan

One of which and I am practically quoting....
is to keep the back line straight, the tail bone tucked in and your head up. Lift one leg and extend it in front of the other. balance on your foot and let the quads take the load as you squat. Sink to the floor till you think you will fall down and extend your arms out. let your arm extension make you balance so you don't fall. lift and settle while keepin the knee and shin as straight as possible

I don't think they have a clue as to what other benefits are derived from it. I was intrigued by something you said about tension which I will P.M. you on. I think it is related to what I call loading. I reffered to one of these earlier as a method I do as a "sneezing" example with stick.

Sounds like a screamer! I'll have to try it out. That description is probably one of the better ones I've heard (for being pulled out of an exercise manual or something)
Tho the side benefits are hard to realize unless you start understanding exactly which connections you're working, there's still much to be gained from doing that kind of exercise with the total intention of keeping the spine straight etc.
Btw, its funny you mentioned the dancer example awhile back(how you'd like to train one and turn him into the next Tito :-D ) since I was thinking the same thing for a while now.
PM me with your tanren methods? I definitely want to compare notes
Btw, the loading methedology you mention, rather than get into complex mechanical explanations now, it wouldn't have anything to do with "loading" the structure, (kind of like a bow), but when you release you still keep some of the "load" in the legs as you strike? (If that makes any sense).

Btw, I just picked up the latest issue of "Hiden" magazine over here in Japan. Pretty typical Aiki stuff of Okamoto Seigo caught on high speed camera, and having them reduce it to the typical vector/timing explanation <yawn>
What was more interesting was the article on Kyudo. They show this Kyudo dude's back when he's holding the bow taught and.....wooooooooow....
That "#$"# looks mad hardcore. I'll see if I can't get a pic of it.
Anyways looking from the front, his chest is completely relaxed,
but the back is drawn together (still soft) to the center, with elbows dropped etc. Personally I thought it was a rare look into what a person's body looks like when executing a certain tanren hou (body training method). Physiology of the guy also reminds me of the Kongourikisi (Buddha attendant Statue) I posted before, and that I saw in Nara.
Totally bujutsu teki na karada. You look at his face tho, and he looks like your typical oyaji. コワ！

Oh yea, and for those that read Japanese, this month's issue on the Kyudo stuff would definitely be worth reading. Asides from the picture they do go into some depth about how the breath is used to "train" the body to get the skill needed to fire a bow. Basically additional ideas to play around with for those that already have their own tanren methods

"Btw, I just picked up the latest issue of "Hiden" magazine over here in Japan. Pretty typical Aiki stuff of Okamoto Seigo caught on high speed camera, and having them reduce it to the typical vector/timing explanation <yawn>"

Hi Robert,

As A DR practicioner, I'd be interested in your opinions on Okamoto Sensei's technique. What do you think about what he does?

I've read the latest "Hiden", and yeah, that Kyudo guy is scary! That photo of the arrow impaling the helmet!!!
(Brrr....)

As A DR practicioner, I'd be interested in your opinions on Okamoto Sensei's technique. What do you think about what he does?

I've read the latest "Hiden", and yeah, that Kyudo guy is scary! That photo of the arrow impaling the helmet!!!
(Brrr....)

"Oyaji-poi" desu ne?

Actually I thought what they showed of Okamoto Seigo was pretty interesting since most of the stuff captured showed him being mostly in Shizentai. Of course I'd want to feel it for myself, preferbably in a format other than what was shown in the demo.

Btw that demo where they show'd him doing it where someone "suddenly" grabs him, I think there's much more to it than the stupid "timing"/"awaseru"/vector explanation that they gave in the magazine. It's also an extremely hard trick to do. The second someone slams down on your wrists (instead of simply gripping) your muscles tend to react and get in the way. If he does it that smoothly it implies that his body/musculature doesn't react to the oncoming force the way a normal person's would. Soutou tanren siterun janai? Tanren no nakami ga siritai na, waza nannka doudemo iiyo

Not that you took it as such, but my comments about Okamoto Seigo were directed more towards the explanations they gave in the magazine (which I think were crap) and don't really serve to bring anything in the light.

The "instant on" from a wrist grab has more to do with breath >and< a connection from your center to your hands than it does with any timing. Its very "ghosty" in feel. We do it with shoves, gi grabs, and tackles as well. In fact IMHO the body work is far easier than hand grabs. most guys tend to muscle up the closer their hands are to their wastes. I know I know sounds wierd. Ya'd think it was easier closer to the waste but from my experience...wham...muscle. Usually shoulder and bicep or shoulder and tricep, depending on whether your pullling or pushing. If they're pushing on your hands...kind of like slamming down to grab. You can use your pelvis and hip/ back to draw down, and then go over the top with your breath (remember that loading?). Its funny as they don't know why they are slamming into the ground. I think we do something similar to the CMA with the breath to "fill the hand" as well. That dynamic is very different from what I described above.
For demos I have a fun experiment were I let guys pound the shit out of my stomach then I "touch" them on the head and they slam into the mat. The more they lean in and really pound -the easier it is to connect and take them. Its just the same principles applied differently, sometimes with an added weight transfer to the front leg. The demo is actually two very different things going on. One out the other in, one out the other down.
Training freestyle with turning and single/double leg diving and shoving and then the old rote gi grab stuff really helps stay super relaxed and flowing. There is an instant feedback if anything is "stuck" and in the way. I think its fun, mentally relaxing and a good work out for the guys doing the shoving. which we trade off on.
The punching /kicking throwing isn't so much fun...for them. I love it as it is my lab.

In fact IMHO the body work is far easier than hand grabs. most guys tend to muscle up the closer their hands are to their wastes. I know I know sounds wierd. Ya'd think it was easier closer to the waste but from my experience...wham...muscle. Usually shoulder and bicep or shoulder and tricep, depending on whether your pullling or pushing.

Think we're on the same page. It actually does make sense. The hand is the furthest point from the body, so there's more stuff to "get in the way" along the path. And like you said, the shoulder/bicep/tricep area is prone to "react", which blocks power from being sent. If you do body work, the areas most prone to being reactive "the shoulder/arm area" are eliminated.
But because its the hardest venue to do the trick that it becomes tanren

Actually I thought what they showed of Okamoto Seigo was pretty interesting since most of the stuff captured showed him being mostly in Shizentai. Of course I'd want to feel it for myself, preferbably in a format other than what was shown in the demo.

Btw that demo where they show'd him doing it where someone "suddenly" grabs him, I think there's much more to it than the stupid "timing"/"awaseru"/vector explanation that they gave in the magazine. It's also an extremely hard trick to do. The second someone slams down on your wrists (instead of simply gripping) your muscles tend to react and get in the way. If he does it that smoothly it implies that his body/musculature doesn't react to the oncoming force the way a normal person's would. Soutou tanren siterun janai? Tanren no nakami ga siritai na, waza nannka doudemo iiyo

Not that you took it as such, but my comments about Okamoto Seigo were directed more towards the explanations they gave in the magazine (which I think were crap) and don't really serve to bring anything in the light.

Short comments on the web are obviously open to interpetation, but I didn't mean to come across as affroted by your comments. I've never even practiced with Okakmoto Sensei! I certainly would be stupid to feel affronted on behalf of someone I don't even know!
(Though he is on my list of "people I'd like to grab")

I actually understood that your comments were geared towards the magazine, but I was, and still am very interested in your comments about Okamoto's technique, as a DR practicioner. mainly becuase his waza is widely available for examination.

So, I guess this being a Kokyu thread, it might be fun to discuss his waza from that perspective.

I actually understood that your comments were geared towards the magazine, but I was, and still am very interested in your comments about Okamoto's technique, as a DR practicioner. mainly becuase his waza is widely available for examination.

Sore ja... What do you think of Okakmoto's "core" (Is that a good translation?)

Hehe, like you said it's open to interpretation so it was just a harmless pre-empt. I wasn't sure if you'd studied with Okamoto before or not ^^;

Hard to tell what Okamoto's "core" is like unless I were to actually feel him. But from the stuff he shows, or at least the manner in which he demo's stuff suggests that the components are all there. Most of his stuff is done from a simple standing position sans stance, which implies he's focused on doing it almost soley using the Kokyu paths.(i think)

Btw, the picture in Hiden showing him having his students lift him up, and then flooring his students from an elevated prone position was one of the demos that Mike mentioned a while back.
Its interesting to watch it in a frame by frame manner.

>and< a connection from your center to your hands than it does with any timing. Its very "ghosty" in feel. We do it with shoves, gi

I feel you on the "ghosty" feel :-D
The second you actually try and put "power" into it, it rebounds into you and causes your muscles to seize up (at least in what I've been doing so far)

Quick question for you Dan,
you done a lot of experimentation with pushups? Most of the tanren, body work has to do with training the lower body. But I've been experimenting with training the upper body in a similar manner as well. I can do one set of about 15 pushups using maximum intention (especially around the back of the knees/spine/upper and lower center area) that will totally tax me out (I can push out about 60-70 meaningless ones btw, just as a yardstick). Breath work is also involved of course, but I've still got a nagging concern that pushing against the ground will feed some "habit" into the muscles and make it more prone to that "rebound" effect.
Of course I try not "pushing" the ground when I do the pushup, but still... ^^;

I sent you a long reply with some examples of what I use for paired work and my views on the push ups as well as Okomoto's work and Shioda. The deconstructing work in the lift that Okomoto does you already now how to do!! You just never did it that way is all. I put some hints in the reply. Just think of the connection points- not the whole picture. Ask Ark I am sure he can pull it off.
It's what I meant when we yaked months ago when I wrote you can manipulate without the ground...in you. Connection is many things
No sense clogging the thread with this stuff.

you done a lot of experimentation with pushups? Most of the tanren, body work has to do with training the lower body. But I've been experimenting with training the upper body in a similar manner as well. I can do one set of about 15 pushups using maximum intention (especially around the back of the knees/spine/upper and lower center area) that will totally tax me out (I can push out about 60-70 meaningless ones btw, just as a yardstick). Breath work is also involved of course, but I've still got a nagging concern that pushing against the ground will feed some "habit" into the muscles and make it more prone to that "rebound" effect.
Of course I try not "pushing" the ground when I do the pushup, but still... ^^;

Hi Rob:

Pushups using the paths are fairly common, but also there was a lot of stuff done with the feet propped up on say the third step of a staircase and the hands down on the floor. Same idea ... running a path from the ground to your center (not to your shoulders). Anytime you move, whether with the hands or the legs, there is a path from ground to center.

Dan and you both seem to use one of the old Shaolin bases for training, which probably points to something in DR. This goes back to the discussion of what Ueshiba used. What I'm beginning to suspect is that there is still more support for the idea that Ueshiba knew *something* of the Shaolin methods of training nei-jing, but he may have picked up a new way to do it via a connection in Omoto-Kyo. It would explain a lot of things, if it's true. Functionally, comparing a purported "harder" style of training (like I'm suggesting in DR) and a "softer" style of training (in the proposed scenario with Ueshiba), it could still be argued which way is the best. I.e., if you manipulate paths and you surround it with 'hard' training and if you manipulate paths surrounded by 'soft' training, which way is best? As you see, it can become moot.

Rob,
I have read enough lately to understand what Mike refers to as the "southern styles" are are the lesser of the styles and are generally considered to be more "hard" style and not soft.....hence less internal.. Personally, I find comments for the body work I have been doing for years as "hard style" hilarious.

Rob,
I have read enough lately to understand what Mike refers to as the "southern styles" are are the lesser of the styles and are generally considered to be more "hard" style and not soft.....hence less internal.. Personally, I find comments for the body work I have been doing for years as "hard style" hilarious.

I'm not sure what you "understand", Dan, but the predominant spread of Chinese martial arts has always been from the southern Shaolin roots. Look at the trade and shipping routes and you'll understand why (maybe). In fact, the predominant martial arts practiced in the current Chinese army have strong southern Shaolin roots.

Instead of just saying how "hilarious" you find a comment relating to what "internal", etc., means, why don't you see if you can argue the point with some facts. I'll bet you can't even define what "internal" means, just to throw a conversation starter out there. Nothing personal... but there's your challenge to see if you can deal with facts and not personalities.

Mike
This is where I say I won't.
Then you say I can't
And you yourself…………….never do.
You offer nothing here or elsewhere beyond the same generalities some of us offer. At least Rob and I talk about some exercise and certain things we do…something…anything.....beyond telling everyone else they can't understand internal skills. Makes me wonder why you're fishing so hard.

As for the "personalities" comment in your reply.
Seems whenever and wherever people disagree with you they are often accused of attacking "you."

Oh…….almost forgot…..this is where you write…
"See like I guessed, you can't describe internal skills."
And this is where you do_______________________________________________not either.

Mike
This is where I say I won't.
Then you say I can't
And you yourself…………….never do.
You offer nothing here or elsewhere beyond the same generalities some of us offer. At least Rob and I talk about some exercise and certain things we do…something…anything.....beyond telling everyone else they can't understand internal skills. Makes me wonder why you're fishing so hard.

As someone once commented to me offline, Dan, you apparently have never read many of my posts. I explained many of these things *exactly*. I'm not sure why you keep insisting that I "never do" when the archives show that you're completely wrong.

Quote:

Oh…….almost forgot…..this is where you write…
"See like I guessed, you can't describe internal skills."
And this is where you do_______________________________________________not either.

Pleasant but transparent game.
Dan

Oddly enough, I've described before exactly what "internal" means, Dan... either on AikiWeb or the Aikido Journal forum. So.... I already have. You can't, it seems obvious, since you've dodged direct questions so many times. Let me suggest again, though, before this gets too far off base, that there is nothing really new in the recent martial arts, whether it's Daito Ryu, Aikido, Taiji, Hun Gar, Wing Chun, Six-Harmonies Mantis, or whatever. In other words, this style-fixation you have about Daito Ryu is somewhat beside the larger point. The larger point, in regard to your "internal" and "external" paradigms (you really should dig into this one, Dan, since it's important to where you're trying to come from) is that the principles are the same, despite the variations in approach and development. Again, the real question is whether Ueshiba got access to one of the differing approaches. Based on what Rob indicates about Akuzawa and based on what details you've mentioned, it appears that Ueshiba *did* do something different from the Daito Ryu approach (caveat: I don't have any input from truly knowledgeable DR people, so I'm suggesting probabilities).

There is on other perspective. The producers of Keijutsukai Aikido says that the Kanji symbols for Kokyu can also mean (which they accept) to be in harmony (meaning tapped into) the powers of the Universe.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman

There is on other perspective. The producers of Keijutsukai Aikido says that the Kanji symbols for Kokyu can also mean (which they accept) to be in harmony (meaning tapped into) the powers of the Universe.

Sort of - "kokyu" means "breathing" (as in "respiration"), and saying that people's "breathing" "matches" is another way of saying that they get along well together (ie, they are "in harmony"). I wouldn't read too much into it, anymore than I would to the phrase "get along like a house on fire" .

Has anyone asked Kenji Ushiro what his definition of "kokyu" is? He obviously means it as some kind of power/strength in relation to karate and Aikido. Obviously Hiroshi Ikeda agrees with him, etc. Maybe someone should try to pin down the meaning (it's obviously idiomatic) through them, in order to get a better feel?

Ko has 10 different meanings, ki has 5. Most words in this language and most other languages (including English) have words that mean different things, so then it becomes the burden to extrapolate the context from surrounding words and the general tone of the conversation. This is why I find it interesting for someone to adhere to a single meaning of a foreign word. Luckily, in English, we have words to express exactly what we mean.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman

Ko has 10 different meanings, ki has 5. Most words in this language and most other languages (including English) have words that mean different things, so then it becomes the burden to extrapolate the context from surrounding words and the general tone of the conversation. This is why I find it interesting for someone to adhere to a single meaning of a foreign word. Luckily, in English, we have words to express exactly what we mean.

The Kojien, which is pretty much the standard for Japanese dictionaries, lists 4 meanings for "kokyu". None of which are "tapped into the powers of the universe".

Now, it's common in Japanese to make points through diagnosis of individual kanji or through idiomatic usage, the problems start occurring when people think that kind of word play constitutes an actual definition. Otherwise I'm going to argue that "martial" artists actually worship an ancient Roman diety .