Proposition 8 – Should Christians Fight against Gay Marriage?

So a friend of mine and I were talking about Proposition 8 and he asked me whether I thought Proposition 8 — which outlawed homosexual marriage in California — should remain law.

My first mind was to say yes, but when I thought about it, I decided to say, “I don’t think it is of first priority.”Please keep in mind: I do not believe, theologically, that two people of the same sex could actually marry.It is both physically and spiritually impossible.Nor do I think that we should encourage it or allow other people to do so.However, I think in recent years the church has been worried about legislating morality more than it has been worried about the principal work Jesus calls us to do, which is to share the gospel.(Matt. 28:19)

Jesus calls us again and again to preach the gospel – the good news that although humans are sinners destined for eternal punishment by God, Jesus, out of his love, came into human history, lived, died, was buried, and physically rose again for us, so that we may be forgiven, saved from our sins, and given eternal and abundant life.(1 Cor. 15:3-5).Liars, thieves, sex addicts, cheaters, rapists, murderers, gossips, greedy people, mean people, and homosexuals need Jesus to save them. (I Cor. 6:9-11)In other words, WE need Jesus to save us.That is the message and the main priority of the church.It is the gospel and the grace God gives that helps us to live in love and in harmony with God and his people.Let the politicians make laws and let the church preach the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Is it wrong to politic for or against these issues, I don’t know let God be your guide. But it is frankly sin, to put any other mission before God’s mission — which is to share the message that God is in the business of saving people from their sins.

I got more to say but I wanted to keep the post short, so if you have questions or want to comment feel free to do so. If I’m wrong please tell me!

Hi there. CKB passed this link to me so that I can check out your opinion of Prop 8. I hope that’s okay.

Here’s my two cents… Quite honestly, I do not feel that it is the believers’ job to legislate their faith, especially if that legislation may be a violation of someone else’s right. The one thing that I love about God is that he gives us the freedom to choose. So, I don’t feel that it is our job to force our beliefs and convictions on individuals who share a different theological stance on the issue of homosexuality. I absolutely believe that adults should have the right to choose for themselves what is best and okay for their lives.

And if someone believes that marrying someone of the same sex is good for them, then I do not feel it is my place as a fellow citizen to rebuke them. Yes, it “may” go against what I’ve been taught in the church regarding homosexuality. But should I force what I’ve agreed to be possible truth on someone that does not believe/will never believe/hasn’t started believing yet?

Now with that being said, I do not support gay marriage if it will put the churches in a position that may leave them liable and open to be sued by gay couples that feel that they are being discriminated against if a pastor refuses to marry them. However, I’ve been told two things regarding the possible consiquences for churches that refuse to marry same sex couples.

1. The church can be sued and sanctioned for violating discrimination laws.
2. The church as a level of amunity that allows them to decide who they will or will not marry, especially if the persons that are requesting a marriage have a different belief system. For instance, a church can refuse to marry two persons that have different religion and/or a different denominational background…

Which one of those is true? Do you have some insight on this.

Because if the church will be punished for their beliefs on this, I am against gay marriage. But if the church can be protected from “angry” gay couples who feel that have been discriminated against, then I am for it.

And yes, I agree with you that the Christian’s first mandate and priority should be to preach the Gospel, not to stick their noses into constitutional issues.

Sorry for the long post. I can be verbose at times… **smile** I’ll be back.

@angie1. Churches have always traditionally had the autonomy of who they want to marry and who they don’t want to marry. The only way the government could possibly pressure churches to do these marriages is to if it threatened to pull faith-based money from churches which do not comply with gay marriage laws that may be on the books. This could be used as a weapon by state administrative branches, but as of now you can’t by law make pastors and churches marry gay couples.

2. I see what you are saying but I think that if you believe that our first role is to preach the gospel or the good news, then you are going to run into the problem of having to tell people why the “good news” is good. You will have to tell people that they are sinners and that they have committed sin which warrants eternal punishment from God, in order for them to understand why the good news is that Jesus came to die so that there sins can be forgiven and they can have eternal life with Jesus, if they would repent and believe. (Mark 1:15)
So you would have tell the dope addict that God can redeem them if they would repent of sin and believe in Jesus — same thing with the liar, the drunkard, the fornicator, and the homosexual. Am I making sense?

++Are you making sense? I hear what you saying. And honestly, I believe you. But I’m still not so sure about some th ings.

About a week ago, I was having a discussion over at a blog that I frequent pretty regularyly regarding homosexuality and prop 8. Well, I ask the guy that was commenting the most, who actually turned out to be a prof at a seminary in Canada, a few questions. Here are the questions I asked him and his responses. After reading give me some feedback. Theologically, do you find his argument to be agreeable?++

* If homosexuality is a sin, then how shall that person be “free” of the sin?

Answer: In Christ. But we need to understand that a person who is IN CHRIST is not always free from the desires and impulses to sin. Some of those will be with us until the day that we die. But that doesn’t mean that he should act on them. God told Cain: “sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.” Gen 4:7

So we may not be free from our impulses (though God may lessen them too), but we ARE free to resist them and say not go ungodliness and yes to righteousness. Here’s what the Apostle Paul says about it: “I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.” (Galatians 5:16,17) So, my flesh may still lust within me from time to time (old habits die hard and take time to re-train), but I can have victory over it with the indwelling power of the Spirit. “For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, that we might live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age.” (Titus 2:11,12)

Hey, I’m a hetero, but that doesn’t mean that I’m better than the homosexual. I just have a different set of temptations. I’m still tempted from time to time to lust after other women who are not my wife. Was I born this way? Yes. I was born with a predilection toward sin and unrighteousness. But that doesn’t mean I get to indulge it as a Christian. Being free in Christ is not being free from the temptations….it is being given the freedom to learn how to say no to them, something I wasn’t able to do before I became a Christian. “Therefore, brethren, we are debtors–not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.” Rom 8:12-14

* If they’ve prayed, fasted, received prayer from the elders, participated in counseling from their pastor, and so on and so on, but still have homosexual desires, then what?

Answer: I’ve already answered that to some degree. The homosexual may always be tempted in this area, just as someone who is hetero may always be tempted to fornicate or commit adultery….or the liar is tempted to lie. But let’s not misunderstand God’s grace. Grace is not God saying, “Oh, go ahead. You can lie. You can cheat. You can fornicate. I understand. I love you anyway.” Paul in Romans 6 says: “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?”

God’s grace is when He says: “Because of your faith in what Christ did for you at the cross and resurrection I have forgiven you for your sin nature and the expressions of it. Now let me teach you how to say no to it.” And that’s a process, no doubt about it.

* Is the sexual act involving homosexuals the sin that you speak of? Or is the actual desire for someone of the same sex the sin?

Answer: Both. Jesus didn’t allow the Pharisees to make a dichotomy out of sin. They argued that it was only sin if you practiced it. Jesus said that it was sin if it was in your heart. “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” Matt 5:27-29

It’s a heart issue. “The heart is deceitful above all things,and desperately wicked.” (Jer 17:9) Never trust your heart, God says. But He also promises us help in this area. “I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them, and take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in My statutes and keep My judgments and do them; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God. But as for those whose hearts follow the desire for their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their deeds on their own heads,’ says the Lord GOD.” Ezek 11:19-21

You see, it’s not that we will never have the lust again….I already addressed that from Scripture up above…..but it’s that He will begin to train our spirit and flesh over time to say no to ungodliness and yes to righteousness, even when the old heart “flares up” from time to time.

* Is being gay the homosexuals’ fault?

Answer: Yes, and no. But it’s the same for all sinners. We could ask the same question of every sinner — is being born a sinner my fault? No. Obviously not. Is practicing the impulses that I have to sin my fault? Yes, because God has still given me a choice (which most of us would fight to the death to keep). If I’m outside of Christ and lost in sin it’s pretty tough to say no to the ungodliness that bounces around in my heart. But in Christ it’s much easier to follow the Spirit and not carry out the desires of my flesh.

Paul addressed this question in Romans 9: “You will say to me then, ‘Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will? (i.e. I’m born this way) But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why have you made me like this?’ Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?” The implied answer to that is YES HE DOES…..but God also says that He has provided a way to be healed and restored……through forgiveness in Christ and freedom to walk in His Spirit. He will begin to heal and restore the broken and marred pot of clay.

* If gay is abnormal, then so is being blind. So, does that make me a throw away in the same way homosexuals are? Praying for my sight hasn’t made me see any faster… Perhaps it’s the same thing when they try to pray their gay away. (shrug)

Answer: You’re comparing apples and oranges. One is a moral issue, because God has made it a moral issue……the other –your being blind — is not a moral issue. We are not punished by God for being blind, or black, or white, or any of those things. We are punished for being immoral, because God has said that He will punish the immoral. Nowhere does God say “Thou shalt not be black, thou shalt not be blind”. But in many places He has spoken out against heterosexual sins and homosexual sin. “Thou shalt not practice those things, and if you do I will punish you for it.”

* Is there a boiling lake of fire waiting for the millions of believers of christ that are engaging in “normal” premarrital sex, which is clearly sexually immoral?

Answer: That’s God’s call, not mine. But I know what you’re saying. They are engaging in sexual immorality and are disgracing the God whom they claim to be serving. It’s hypocrisy, no doubt about it. Does God condone this behavior? NO. Does God want them to repent of it? YES. The same holds true for homosexual sin.

* If the homosexual asks for forgiveness, then does that absolve them of the dirtiness that you imply they are?

Answer: “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.” 1 John 1:9-10

* Do you honestly think that God would eternally punish individuals who have a certain desire and/or experience here on Earth that is innately deposited in them and their personal identities?

Answer: I’ve already answered that, so the answer is yes. Not just for homosexuals, but for all sinners who don’t repent.

++PN: I asked one of our mutual friends that attends seminary with you what did he think of the answers this guy gave. He said that he thinks that the man was on point? What do you think?

One more question… Is there a clear cut question on this issue. If it is the Word of God, then what can we do to realistically address this issue? How can these people that the Word deems as sinners be truly free from this sin that has them in bondage?

BTW: As you can see from going to my blog, I’m a blogger. Hence the reason for my wordy posts. Plus, this issue is so incredibly interesting to me. I’m so wop sided on the homosexuality and marriage equality thing. I don’t know what I truly think of it all.

P, one more thing… The minister that answered the above questions made mention that homosexuality was immoral.
I know you can’t speak for him, but I do have a question for you.
Is the desire for someone of the same sex the act that is immoral? What if the person resisted those feelings and desires, then are they now moral?

I’m asking these questions not because it is my struggle. I’m asking because my struggle is fully understanding and empathizing with the struggleso f my friends that are gay. As I tr to develop appreciation for all forms of diversity, my goal is to find a way to respect all people, even if their lives look nothing like mine. However, I’m trying to figure out what my response should be to these people, even my friends, who are perhaps living life differently from what most believers think is moral in the eyes of the Master.

I find his argument agreeable and in line with God’s Word to us. In fact, I would shared many of the same scriptures that he did.

Jesus doesn’t allow us to split hairs about the act or the thought. He says:

Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart (Matt. 5-27-28)

So that it is the heart that God finds wicked, unattractive, immoral and qualifying us for eternal punishment. In Isaiah 64:6, he tells us that our attempts to be righteous are like bloody tampons in his eyes. There is nothing in us that good or endearing. That is why, we need the grace of God through Jesus Christ. Jesus takes our sinfulness and thereby takes upon himself God’s wrath. He then gives us his righteousness. So that now when God sees us he see us through the righteousness of Jesus Christ. Check out 2 Corinthians 5:21:

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Romans 4:5-8
5 But people are counted as righteous, not because of their work, but because of their faith in God who forgives sinners. 6 David also spoke of this when he described the happiness of those who are declared righteous without working for it:
7 “Oh, what joy for those
whose disobedience is forgiven,
whose sins are put out of sight.
8 Yes, what joy for those
whose record the Lord has cleared of sin.”​*​

What does that mean for us and your friends? If you have acknowledged your sin, repented, and believed in the Lord Jesus Christ for your salvation you are declared to be righteous by God. You are now looked upon by divine favor from God and you can. Grace now works to redeem us and strengthen us when we sin.

What do we tell people? Well first of all, its not about what we think is sin, we have to look at this thing from the vantage point of God. Those of us who are Christians don’t always take sin as seriously as God does. We tend to see the seriousness of homosexuality while missing the seriousness of sexuality outside of marriage to God. All sin is serious to God and we ought to not only counsel our homosexual friends, but also people who are Christians and non Christians who are having sex outside of marriage.

Secondly, we tell these people that yes God hates these things, but if they have repented from sin and placed their trust in Jesus they have been legally declared to be righteous by Jesus Christ. We have also died to sin and it no longer has mastery over us. (Romans 6:1) The Christian now has the opportunity to choose to live a life according to the Spirit which lives in us. Again though, our morality is nothing to God, only the righteousness of Christ, pleases God and gives us favor.

Thirdly, I love your open-mindedness, but you have to always ask the question, what is the God-point of view, rather than what is the socially acceptable point of view. Sin to God will always be offensive, and thus, it should be offensive to you. However, the love of God says to us that despite our sin, Jesus bared our sin on himself, so that we might have a righteous life. So that when you are sharing with others who may not struggle with what you do, you share the truth with humility, knowing that your struggle with sin is no less important to God as theirs. We then become beggars telling other beggars where they can find bread? Share with your friends the gospel of Jesus Christ, make sure that your friends truly understand what that means and its implication in their lives, they will see begin to see if they are accepting of it that the love and acceptance of God will flood their lives and they will progressively grow in their ability to overcome sin. But you must be firm in your convictions, and must believe in the Gospel of Jesus for yourself.

“What is the God-point of view, rather than what is the socially acceptable point of view.”

That’s great! You’re absolutely right.

There was a time that I was very rigid in my beliefs and attitudes regarding certain things. But then, as I tried to be more of a centrist in my political and social beliefs, I drifted away from examining all manner of things against the Word of God. Now that I’m having this discussion with you, I do realize that as a believer that this is not good for many reasons.

1. When we begin to open ourselves to ideas and concepts that are outside of God’s original design for our lives, we can sometimes be more tempted to also start self subscribing other aspects of our life, rather than following the Word of God. What do I mean? If I relax my views on certain things, just because it may be socially/politically correct, I may start relaxing the other prescriptions that God expects me to comply with in my personal life.

2. At the end of the day, most of this stuff that we think of as important in our society will fade away. What is really important is the spiritual condition of the hearts of man. So, I guess thatis why many of our political and social views should line up with God’s Word.

3. I have to remember that while there are many things in the Word that are hard to swallow, it is the Word of God. And no matter how uncomfortable, painful, and unfair it is for us as humans, it is the Word. And because it is the Word we should accept it. Yes, many principles that we are told to live by may indeed be seemingly impractical. But that is to the carnal mind. When we look at life through spiritual lens we can better understand why God has prescribed a certain instruction on living.

“…and must believe in the Gospel of Jesus for yourself.”

I hope thap this discussion hasn’t led you to believe that I don’t believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I absolutely don’t want to give you that impression. I do believe. And if it wasn’t for Christ, I would literally be dead by now. (More details on that later… Well, that’s if it ever comes up in convo…)

But because I’m an anlytical person, a college prof, somewhat of a political junkie, and a social examiner, I have the tendency to “try” to look at life with more openness than the average “legalistic”, non-thinking, narrow perspective having person. I do understand that can be problematic, and may cause some people to wonder if I do believe. But trust me, I do. But I’m a work in progress. Always learning… Always considering… Always trying to broaden my view on the world we live in…

To be quite honest, I do hope that my openness won’t cause me or no one else, for that matter, to stumble. That is never my intention

Thanks for the discussion. I gained something from it. Quite frankly, it provided me with some more insight and better clarity of God’s expectations for us as believers.

I hear you, I just do not assume anything anymore. Most of the people I have seen trust in Jesus are people who are regular moral church attenders. So I don’t assume and I share with everyone. Also, it is the gospel that we contend for as Christians and it is the same thing that sustains us even in our weakest moments. So I share it with everybody believers and unbelievers. Plus, I believe its of primary importance to share the gospel. Because I could tell my friends stop engaging in fornication and homosexuality, and they still wind up eternally punishment, because they put their trust in their own goodness rather than in Jesus Christ for their salvation.

Further, I don’t think anything is wrong in examining your faith. Augustine says that the study of the Triune God, is “Faith seeking understanding.” So keep on seeking, and keep on thinking, and keep on believing!