1) A lot of power(and generally the more powerful they are, the better);

and

2) An edgy-ness or gritty-ness to them(I don't care for boy-scout types)

Superman, Batman, Daredevil, Wolverine, FF, etc. only meet one of those requirements. Spidey, Captain America etc. don't meet either really. Iron Man & the Hulk meet them both well(Hulk more-so than Iron Man) so that's why they're my faves and by extension through them, the Avengers. I will say of Nolan's Batman that they've done about as good a job of making him interesting as Batman can be.

Wouldn't Iron Man fall more along the lines of Batman with your terminology? It's the suit that makes I.M...without it, he's less than Batman. Not to mention the bad ticker he has...

Wayne could build his own battle armor (and has) if he wanted although that might cramp his style more on a regular basis.

Not trying to blast your opinion but...c'mon, man. Cap falls more under your two examples than Stark IMO. Well, at least Ultimate Cap.

__________________"Batman's rich history allows him to be interpreted in a multitude of ways. To be sure, this is a lighter incarnation, but it's certainly no less valid and true to the character's roots as the tortured avenger...crying out for Mommy & Daddy..."

The arguments presented for Ironman against Batman are clearly unfounded, but I almost expect it since Marvel is the "cool" company to like these days.

I have to make sure that my Marvel fanboy son sees this...

He thinks that Marvel Comics are the Gospel.

__________________"Batman's rich history allows him to be interpreted in a multitude of ways. To be sure, this is a lighter incarnation, but it's certainly no less valid and true to the character's roots as the tortured avenger...crying out for Mommy & Daddy..."

Wouldn't Iron Man fall more along the lines of Batman with your terminology? It's the suit that makes I.M...without it, he's less than Batman. Not to mention the bad ticker he has...

Wayne could build his own battle armor (and has) if he wanted although that might cramp his style more on a regular basis.

Not trying to blast your opinion but...c'mon, man. Cap falls more under your two examples than Stark IMO. Well, at least Ultimate Cap.

I agree about ultimate Cap in that I prefer him to 616 Cap even though he's still not that powerful. And yes, Iron Man's not much without the suit but with it he's mega powerful and to me that's a minor nit-pick. And yes Bats could pay for a suit of armor as well I guess, but he doesn't do it as that's not his thing as a superhero. I also don't see it working in a Nolan film.

Yes, a lack of QUALITY villians could be a reason from keeping Iron Man on Batman's level.

Only Bats and Spider-Man have the most recognizable rogue galleries...and the coolest.

__________________"Batman's rich history allows him to be interpreted in a multitude of ways. To be sure, this is a lighter incarnation, but it's certainly no less valid and true to the character's roots as the tortured avenger...crying out for Mommy & Daddy..."

Actually, when it comes to rogue's galleries I find the Avengers and FF have the best. Dr. Doom, Ultron, Kang, Galactus.....those are winners. But to me a hero's villans don't determine whether the hero him/her-self is cool or not. It does however largely determine whether the particular story they're in is any good.

Actually, when it comes to rogue's galleries I find the Avengers and FF have the best. Dr. Doom, Ultron, Kang, Galactus.....those are winners. But to me a hero's villans don't determine whether the hero him/her-self is cool or not. It does however largely determine whether the particular story they're in is any good.

We went from singular to plural now, kedrell? Okay, then the JLA has the best villians of them all.

There has to be a compass set in order to measure the worth of a hero; gotta have ying with yang. Iron Man doesn't have the yang part, Batman does. Tony Stark battling inebriation doesn't count.

I will agree with you that the story has to be interesting enough though.

__________________"Batman's rich history allows him to be interpreted in a multitude of ways. To be sure, this is a lighter incarnation, but it's certainly no less valid and true to the character's roots as the tortured avenger...crying out for Mommy & Daddy..."

We went from singular to plural now, kedrell? Okay, then the JLA has the best villians of them all.

Only in regards to which villains are my favorites. I'm completely unfamiliar with JLA villains. I'm not much of a DC guy.

Quote:

There has to be a compass set in order to measure the worth of a hero; gotta have ying with yang. Iron Man doesn't have the yang part, Batman does. Tony Stark battling inebriation doesn't count.

I will agree with you that the story has to be interesting enough though.

To me I evaluate the hero on his/her own merits. The villain doesn't enter into it. You could just have Hero X taking on some bank robbers and that would be fine for me, at least in determining who's a cool hero. Now the villain IS important but mainly to the particular story into which he/she is inserted. Villains are transitory(they come and go) but the hero remains. That's all I was trying to say.

__________________"Batman's rich history allows him to be interpreted in a multitude of ways. To be sure, this is a lighter incarnation, but it's certainly no less valid and true to the character's roots as the tortured avenger...crying out for Mommy & Daddy..."

It seems like it's always been that way on this board (which kind of makes sense there are more Marvel movies). Most people are Marvel fans but make an exception for Batman/Superman/maybe the Justice League.

Actually, when it comes to rogue's galleries I find the Avengers and FF have the best. Dr. Doom, Ultron, Kang, Galactus.....those are winners. But to me a hero's villans don't determine whether the hero him/her-self is cool or not. It does however largely determine whether the particular story they're in is any good.

a hero is only as good as their rogues.

you can have the greatest hero ever, give them crap rogues and they aren't worth much.

that's the reason why the hulk spends more time fighting heroes than he does villains, because he only has like three villains worth mentioning.

ironman only has one.

look at that lame cartoon they put him in during the 90s cartoons, it was aweful and the villain line up was a joke.

__________________I touch the Fire and it Freezes me
I look into it and it's Blackwhy don't i feel, my Skin should crack and peel?
I want the Fire back...

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you can have the greatest hero ever, give them crap rogues and they aren't worth much.

that's the reason why the hulk spends more time fighting heroes than he does villains, because he only has like three villains worth mentioning.

ironman only has one.

look at that lame cartoon they put him in during the 90s cartoons, it was aweful and the villain line up was a joke.

Exactly! Thank you.

__________________"Batman's rich history allows him to be interpreted in a multitude of ways. To be sure, this is a lighter incarnation, but it's certainly no less valid and true to the character's roots as the tortured avenger...crying out for Mommy & Daddy..."

you can have the greatest hero ever, give them crap rogues and they aren't worth much.

that's the reason why the hulk spends more time fighting heroes than he does villains, because he only has like three villains worth mentioning.

ironman only has one.

look at that lame cartoon they put him in during the 90s cartoons, it was aweful and the villain line up was a joke.

I tend to disagree, I think the particular story a hero is in is only as good as his rogues. But you could just have any hero go up against a bunch of generic bank robbers if you want to evaluate how cool a particular hero is on his/her own merits. And that's how I rate them.

Seriously, Superman does not have crappy villians. Where'd you get that from?

__________________"Batman's rich history allows him to be interpreted in a multitude of ways. To be sure, this is a lighter incarnation, but it's certainly no less valid and true to the character's roots as the tortured avenger...crying out for Mommy & Daddy..."

^I beg to differ. Toyman & Bizarro to name a few. I'm not all that impressed with Batman or Spider-Man's villains either. There are actually very, very few villains I find interesting at all throughout all of Marvel or DC. I find more movie villains to be interesting, like Hans Gruber from Die Hard. Maybe that's because in order for a villain to really be threatening and therefore cool, said villain needs to be allowed to be as bad as he/she can be. Comics being geared towards kids, tends to mute a villain's evil.

On a side note, it is interesting that a hero's villains generally are similar to him in many ways. Spider-Man's enemies are almost all animal based characters, Batman's are almost all as powerless as he is, Iron Man's are mostly tech based villains, etc.

^I beg to differ. Toyman & Bizarro to name a few. I'm not all that impressed with Batman or Spider-Man's villains either.

OMG! You're a piece of work, my friend...

__________________"Batman's rich history allows him to be interpreted in a multitude of ways. To be sure, this is a lighter incarnation, but it's certainly no less valid and true to the character's roots as the tortured avenger...crying out for Mommy & Daddy..."

Well, comic book villains in general don't impress me much. I'll take a Hans Gruber, Darth Vader(yes I know he was inspired by Dr. Doom), Predator, Dick Jones & Clarence Boddicker(RoboCop), Mr. Blonde(Reservoir Dogs), Hannibal Lecter, etc. way before them because they're allowed to be evil in a way that comic book villains aren't. Most of those are from rated R movies, and that's why.

Heh, I take it you never read that story where Doctor Light raped Elongated Man's wife then.

That was pretty evil. What's just as bad is what the JLA did to Light afterward.

Comics are leaning towards more mature content for the past decade or so...

__________________"Batman's rich history allows him to be interpreted in a multitude of ways. To be sure, this is a lighter incarnation, but it's certainly no less valid and true to the character's roots as the tortured avenger...crying out for Mommy & Daddy..."

^I beg to differ. Toyman & Bizarro to name a few. I'm not all that impressed with Batman or Spider-Man's villains either. There are actually very, very few villains I find interesting at all throughout all of Marvel or DC. I find more movie villains to be interesting, like Hans Gruber from Die Hard. Maybe that's because in order for a villain to really be threatening and therefore cool, said villain needs to be allowed to be as bad as he/she can be. Comics being geared towards kids, tends to mute a villain's evil.

Batman's rogues would fit your criteria to a T I would think. Most of them regularly kill people without any regret, and most of them outright enjoy it. Joker kidnaps and kills babies and most of Ra's plans involve eugenics and mass genocide.

Also, I think the importance of villains depends on the hero and how powerful he is. You can do a story about Daredevil or someone fighting nondescript organized crime and robbers and have it be a good story. With Dr. Stange it's really contrived to have him fight someone that's not a powerful poersonality.