At level 63, I think I just needed to spam SCK and use Keg Smash and Breath of Fire when available. The healing orbs we generate were healing me for like 20% of my health, and SCK on 3+ mobs usually made at least one, if not more. Guard and Shuffle were overkill, because both self and healer healing is still OP until 80+.

I agree with a lot of what people have said here. There's a lot of fun stuff to juggle to manage while tanking.

Stuns: Suck, these will kill us, since we basically can't do anything and a lot of our mitigation/recovery/avoidance is active. I was doing Mogu'shan vaults, and the only time I really dipped low was when I got chained stunned by one of the early trash packs. I didn't even dip low when the last boss killed the healer at like 10-15% (with 2 DPS already dead from standing in stuff). I'd love to just make some of our defensive abilities (Guard or PB) usable while stunned.

Stagger: Is a great mechanic, but it really doesn't come into its own until you get Purifying Brew very late and can actually do something about it. So the low level comment about Stagger won't be valid when you get higher.

Zen Sphere: Heals me for maybe 10% of my health over 16 seconds at level 89. Meh. I use it sometimes when soloing if I've over-pulled and really need more healing. Lots of better uses for Chi.

Stuns: Suck, these will kill us, since we basically can't do anything and a lot of our mitigation/recovery/avoidance is active. I was doing Mogu'shan vaults, and the only time I really dipped low was when I got chained stunned by one of the early trash packs. I didn't even dip low when the last boss killed the healer at like 10-15% (with 2 DPS already dead from standing in stuff). I'd love to just make some of our defensive abilities (Guard or PB) usable while stunned.

We some sort of passive ability to help us get through stuns, like Stuns should immediately reset the cooldown of Expel Harm, and while stunned Expel Harm can still be cast and costs no energy.

I use TP, that's not the issue, i know to press TP when i can't press any other button, it's that I cannot get Shuffle up 100% of the time and still use Guard on cooldown and Zen Sphere every 16 seconds. I understand one cannot have one's AM tools all up 100% but that's the moon your supposed to shoot for right?

For example, If want to use a TPx3 Guard by the time i use TP>Jab>TP>Jab>TP my Shuffle has fallen off and i need to used Black out kick again, so when will i ever get to use Guard? or If i use Guard, how long of a gap between shuffles is acceptable?

If we could have our AM up 100% of the time, it'd be nerfed to the ground. We're supposed to prioritize and manage them. You should be using Guard as much as you can and Elusive Brew on cooldown (unless you're saving them for something) and then fill in the gaps with BoK and Purifying Brew, balancing their use as needed. At the very least, that's what I'm doing.

Originally Posted by Grubjuice

Or maybe we will be able to actually put excess secondary stats into defensive stats.

Why would you want to? By then, I'm willing to bet that point for point, crit rating will grant more dodge percentage than dodge rating. Our active mitigation is so powerful that defensive stats just aren't worth it.

Or maybe we will be able to actually put excess secondary stats into defensive stats.

Originally Posted by The Madgod

Why would you want to? By then, I'm willing to bet that point for point, crit rating will grant more dodge percentage than dodge rating. Our active mitigation is so powerful that defensive stats just aren't worth it.

or not, i guess.

although if the gear already has Crit and Exp/Hit or Crit and Haste on it, and you are Exp/Hit capped and approaching often energy capping (at least during haste buffs), perhaps defensive stats would be more beneficial than haste at that point.

Why would you want to? By then, I'm willing to bet that point for point, crit rating will grant more dodge percentage than dodge rating. Our active mitigation is so powerful that defensive stats just aren't worth it.

If you reach enough crit/haste that you can consistently have 9+ stacks of Elusive Brew by the time the cooldown is up, then additional crit significantly loses value for defensive purposes. I don't know whether that will be practical with the gear we'll have available, but at that point, you can start investing in parry or dodge rating (or just more haste, cause you know... energy is good).

Side note... does anyone know if you pop Elusive Brew while you still have time left on the buff if it stacks in duration like Shuffle or does the new one overwrite the old one?

I use TP, that's not the issue, i know to press TP when i can't press any other button, it's that I cannot get Shuffle up 100% of the time and still use Guard on cooldown and Zen Sphere every 16 seconds. I understand one cannot have one's AM tools all up 100% but that's the moon your supposed to shoot for right?

For example, If want to use a TPx3 Guard by the time i use TP>Jab>TP>Jab>TP my Shuffle has fallen off and i need to used Black out kick again, so when will i ever get to use Guard? or If i use Guard, how long of a gap between shuffles is acceptable?

I really don't see the stuns as an issue, yeah it's annoying dying in a chain stun on the odd trash pack cos you didn't get a chance to get your guard or shuffle up, but realistically that is only problem on trash packs in low end gear. Also you can avoid that most of the time by opening with KS followed directly by a leg sweep, that way you have time to get 3 stacks of power guard and your guard up before any real damage comes in and before they have a chance to stun you. If all else fails I can just use Human Racial to break stun, but not everyone will have that option.

I've noticed a massive difference in what you can "get away with" on AoE pulls once my gear increased and I push closer to hit/expertise cap. SCK produces so many orbs, that provided you use them properly and time your leg sweep right, you can burn down packs without touching any real defensive CD's, especially if you glyph BoF and time it to interrupt casters.

Also, make sure you have your statue up all the time, 30 seconds CD means there is very little reason to not and if you are ploughing into packs and are pulling 70-100k dps, the guards will cover alot of the splash damage on the group allowing your healer to focus on you. I had my resto druid purring by the end of our first heroic run at just how much Guard coverage I was getting and how much it was absorbing.

I have had some horrible oh shit moments where my HP has nose dived, but only when taking liberties and trying to rambo packs with no shuffle/gaurd/EB and then realising that my leg sweep is on CD and I am up the creek with no paddle.

Brewmasters seem to have a bit of a cliff type style, leading up to the edge of the cliff they are very comfortable and good players can make that "edge" further away by clever use of CD's and utility, but make a mistake and the drop off is severe. It's these sudden spikes that bad monks see often and are what healers dread the most and therefore what leaves a lasting impression.

I feel like Brewmasters will scale very well and already see a significant difference now @457 ilvl than I did when I first stepped into heroics in barely 440 gear.

Monk tanking is a lot of fun in my opinion. it is a very active tanking spec like everyone is saying but you tend to get the hang of it. I haven't been feeling Chi starved very often and for longer fights I have been able to get upwards of 30+ seconds of shuffle up even while using guard on cool down (I have power strikes and use keg smash on CD, also use RJW on single target since it does more damage than BOK single target).

@Valient The place that the stun issue is most apparent are on timed challenge runs. Since the mobs hit harder, all your gear is normalized and you are trying to go fast (pulling a few mob groups at once) getting stunned back to back can be pretty fatal.

@Valient The place that the stun issue is most apparent are on timed challenge runs. Since the mobs hit harder, all your gear is normalized and you are trying to go fast (pulling a few mob groups at once) getting stunned back to back can be pretty fatal.

Still, nothing a co-ordinated group can't deal with, you have so many options, CC the stunning mobs, single target nuke them down, burst threat during a leg sweep and then move out of melee range untill the mob in question is dead, stock pile chi before the current trash pack is dead so you have enough to Guard pre-pull, get your healer/dps to pick talents that will help control packs for instance a mistweaver with leg sweep is incredibly useful or a dps warrior with shockwave.

The reason it appears to be a problem now is because no one is CCing, people are used to out gearing stuff and they are probably just mindlessly pulling packs blissfully unaware that one of the mobs will stun. A good tank should always prioritise learning which mobs are the danger mobs in every pack, the problem is that you have rarely had to give shit in recent tiers and people have gotten into bad habbits.

5 man instance tanking is almost a lost art these days, anyone who tanked tbc 5 mans will know what I mean. Personally I like it, makes a nice change to the facerolls that have been 5 mans ever since.

To me, Brewmaster is something people have been wanting for a long time: Rogue tanks :-)

I'm enjoying the hell out of it. It's fun, it's more complicated than other tanks, and it shells out a hefty amount of dps. Obviously going to be nerfed into oblivion like DKs were, but I can enjoy it while it lasts, right?

Originally Posted by Warwithin

Politicians put their hand on the BIBLE and swore to uphold the CONSTITUTION. They did not put their hand on the CONSTITUTION and swear to uphold the BIBLE.

Originally Posted by Adam Jensen

Except maybe Morgan Freeman. That man could convince God to be an atheist with that voice of his . . .

We're talking about Brewmasters, BOK does not heal a BM, it grants parry and increases stagger. If you meant that Expel Harm heals more, well EH and ZS are not exclusive: EX is a reactive heal that builds Chi and ZS is a preemptive HoT that spends Chi. I find zen Sphere to be a good stabilizer (and it is increased 30% by guard), and it accounts for a not insignifant amount of self healing. And also TP neither grants nor costs Chi for BM, it's merely a Global Cooldown filler, to be used when ever you can't do anything else (because of no energy and no chi) so i am essentially always pressing something, i guess as haste increases throughout this expansion will be pressing TP less and Jab More.

I find that on a brand new pull with all short CDs ready, I use Keg Smash > Guard > Jab(Power Strikes) > Zen Sphere as my set up. If i am doing AoE i follow up with SCKx2>Breath of Fire>Leg Sweep, and for Single target its Jabx2>Blackout Kick. (I am only level 63 so i don't have RJW, but i expect that will replace ZS on my AoE opening rotation).

Basically i am counting on Guard and Zen Sphere to last me at least long enough to get me through my first Blackout Kick or Leg Sweep.

Sorry, I had forgotten, was sitting at work when I wrote my reply.

I think your issue is level 63. I wouldn't expect the priorities to be the same at level 63 as it is at endgame. At 90, Zen Sphere is pretty terrible, it heals for 2-4k a pop on a health pool of about 400k, 450k buffed. At least at 90, it's not worth even wasting your Chi on. I charged my way to 90 and jumped straight into heroics, I can't be of much help at your level =/