I was talking to another Zappa fan the other day as he met Gail at the roundhouse event and he was telling me all about it. He said he wasn't sure if he believed all the stories about Frank's infidelity.

I've always been uncomfortable with this whole side of Frank. Maybe I'm old fashioned but if you are married and have kids you gotta (in my book) take control of your urges and show some respect. Let's face it though, Frank had everything his way and the evidence suggests he cheated on Gail.

Now the reason I wanted to discuss this is to see what the real story is? In that early 70's documentary where Franks is talking on a park bench he clearly admits cheating on Gail and talking about taking crabs home. Pretty disgusting stuff. Then there is Nigey Lennon's claims + the story of that Australian girl (anyone have any more details?).But are there any other stories? If Frank was so unfaithful why isn't there more women coming out the woodwork? Why isn't there more stores from his band members or did Frank just fall in love with just a few other women outside his marriage?

I love just about everything about Frank but I struggle with this and feel somewhat disappointing and let down. Anyone else have any thoughts?

Well, Gail tolerated it because she was mad (you know what I mean, she's talked openly about the voices in her head which told her her mission in life was to be completely subserviant to a great artist i.e Frank...which raises the question: why is a person subject to auditory hallucinations allowed to manage a business?)...but that's not terribly relevant. The fact is, Frank was wise to the fact that monogamy/the conventional family are unworkable false constructs.It all comes down to one thing, which no-one with a fully functioning brain and body will contracdict: humans are not supposed to be monogamous. For a simple reason: People get bored with each other, quickly!

Aww Man! Why not just let it rest. Who cares? It's his music that matters. Nigey seems to use this to sell books. I have read hers,and I wonder where all of this wild orchestrating talent of hers went when she left Frank's side?'Cause she just belts out bad blues music on her site(or at least that's all that was there a while back,last time I looked.). Where in her book she'd have you believe that she did pieces of music on par with "The Grand Wazoo" or something. I'd bet Frank made bad moves while "on the road"(because it "drives you crazy" ,remember!),....but ,really,how much does it matter now?

Sorry Nigey....the music videos on your site just didn't support your claims of written musical pieces and that makes me doubt all of your claims. Also I'll say..."Sorry Gail",I feel that this talk is not "kind" or fair to the one who holds all of Frank's interest at heart.

A lot of what N Lennon writes is probably hogwash. Especially when I read interviews with her she seems like she has mental issues, and I am not using that lightly. I suppose Frank has a different view on sex as most of us have, as a pleasant pastime more than an outing of the ultimate love reserved for that one and only. And that's how I learned to live with it.

... monogamy/the conventional family are unworkable false constructs.It all comes down to one thing, which no-one with a fully functioning brain and body will contracdict: humans are not supposed to be monogamous. For a simple reason: People get bored with each other, quickly!

This is horse shit. You only get bored with someone when you've met the wrong person. There is much fulfilment to be gained from a long term relationship with someone who's different enough to make you a versatile team but alike enough in certain fundamental ways to give it a firm foundation and keep it harmonious. Maybe it's not for everyone but many people are happier in a monogamous relationship and it's got fuck all to do with having a "fully functioning brain and body". Maybe it's a defective brain that's not capable of monogamy and fails to see what the benefits are.

_________________The way I see it Barry, this should be a very dynamite show.

It's definitely an aspect that I found a bit jarring while reading Miles' book, particularly considering the image I'd previously had of Frank being a nice little family man.

Ringo wrote:

In that early 70's documentary where Franks is talking on a park bench he clearly admits cheating on Gail and talking about taking crabs home. Pretty disgusting stuff.

Yeah, that's in the VPRO special. I thought the worst part was how he mentioned coming home with the clap and "sending the wife out to get a prescription." I guess it was a different time, as folks say.

Half of Frank's songs were about sex! Come on folks, it's pretty clear he was a happy participant on the road.

Betcha Gail wouldn't much like this thread.....

_________________Everytime we picked a booger we'd flip it on this one winduh. Every night we'd contribute, 2, 3, 4 boogers. We had to use a putty knife, man, to get them damn things off the winduh. There was some goober ones that weren't even hard...

... monogamy/the conventional family are unworkable false constructs.It all comes down to one thing, which no-one with a fully functioning brain and body will contracdict: humans are not supposed to be monogamous. For a simple reason: People get bored with each other, quickly!

This is horse shit. You only get bored with someone when you've met the wrong person. There is much fulfilment to be gained from a long term relationship with someone who's different enough to make you a versatile team but alike enough in certain fundamental ways to give it a firm foundation and keep it harmonious. Maybe it's not for everyone but many people are happier in a monogamous relationship and it's got fuck all to do with having a "fully functioning brain and body". Maybe it's a defective brain that's not capable of monogamy and fails to see what the benefits are.

Here here!

_________________Everytime we picked a booger we'd flip it on this one winduh. Every night we'd contribute, 2, 3, 4 boogers. We had to use a putty knife, man, to get them damn things off the winduh. There was some goober ones that weren't even hard...

I was a little taken aback when I first learned of Frank's indiscretions as I read "Rock Wives" way back when. There was a chapter on Gail and I remember her saying something like she "didn't like it when she saw Frank with other women". Following FZ since then it has been obvious, and very much in the open, that even the concept of "cheating" to Frank was a joke. Something squares might be worried about. Was he wrong? Well, that all depends on the people. Frank wasn't hiding anything and Gail tolerated it. You also have to examine the sociology of rock stardom of the day, kind of a perfect storm of hippie philosophy ("Love the One You're With"), groupie worship (Gail was a groupie too, remember) and an era of relatively harmless STD's. Many other music (and entertainment) stars from that era and before engaged in this kind of delicious and decadent behavior.

Don't get me wrong, I think the sun shines out Frank's ass but I don't want to airbrush out any warts. Frank clearly had the ability to get away with what many men would love to do. The reality for most of us guys is cheating on the person you have built a life with will result in destruction and rightly so.

Many women wouldn't have put up with it. For better or worse Gail choose too. Perhaps when she writes her book she will give her reasons. Perhaps, like others, she would prefer to not go there and move on.

In many ways I don't know whether to respect Gail for putting up with it or to pity her. At the end of the day though I wasn't there and ultimately it was her life/choice.

But the reason for this thread is simple: To learn a little more about the man, including the warts.

... monogamy/the conventional family are unworkable false constructs.It all comes down to one thing, which no-one with a fully functioning brain and body will contracdict: humans are not supposed to be monogamous. For a simple reason: People get bored with each other, quickly!

This is horse shit. You only get bored with someone when you've met the wrong person. There is much fulfilment to be gained from a long term relationship with someone who's different enough to make you a versatile team but alike enough in certain fundamental ways to give it a firm foundation and keep it harmonious. Maybe it's not for everyone but many people are happier in a monogamous relationship and it's got fuck all to do with having a "fully functioning brain and body". Maybe it's a defective brain that's not capable of monogamy and fails to see what the benefits are.

I totally agree with you. You are sir a better Gentleman than Frank ever was.

I totally agree with you. You are sir a better Gentleman than Frank ever was.

I think Frank was just wired differently from most people. You don't have to spent a whole lot of time studying his lyrics to get an idea of how cynical he was about the notion of traditional love. I'm sure Frank was able to rationalize extracurricular sexual activities as being independent of love and thus, not a violation of his marriage. I certainly don't doubt that Frank loved his family, but I don't think that his concept of love was the same as most people's. Moon has said numerous times that he rarely spent quality time with the family (I think the "Valley Girl" story about her letter to Frank is actually kind of sad). Workaholic artists don't particularly have a reputation for being easy people to live with, and I have a feeling Frank wasn't an exception.

what's important i have found out, are persons at your side to develop your ideas, more and funnier. Anyone knows what a friend is? a pal eg with which you explore the world of words and change it. ...i could think. Ask the ..Sir Gnominous, whahaha.

Fancy a few of us would be saying something of high fidelity? all sorts of wonders could happen. Who wants that then?

... monogamy/the conventional family are unworkable false constructs.It all comes down to one thing, which no-one with a fully functioning brain and body will contracdict: humans are not supposed to be monogamous. For a simple reason: People get bored with each other, quickly!

This is horse shit. You only get bored with someone when you've met the wrong person. There is much fulfilment to be gained from a long term relationship with someone who's different enough to make you a versatile team but alike enough in certain fundamental ways to give it a firm foundation and keep it harmonious. Maybe it's not for everyone but many people are happier in a monogamous relationship and it's got fuck all to do with having a "fully functioning brain and body". Maybe it's a defective brain that's not capable of monogamy and fails to see what the benefits are.

I totally agree with you. You are sir a better Gentleman than Frank ever was.

Not sure if you're being sarcastic, but I was just objecting to cist-array's comments about monogamy. I certainly wouldn't presume to compare myself to FZ or judge his behaviour.

And don't get me wrong, finding the right person isn't easy. I consider myself very lucky that at the age of 35, after several failed relationships, I met somebody very compatible to me and over 18 years later we are still happily married.

_________________The way I see it Barry, this should be a very dynamite show.

On the more 'biological' end of the spectrum, although mammals were primarily polygynous, man kind evolved to a more stable social monogamy. It makes things easier to bring about the young on the proportionately most dependable species, us. Family structure might very well improve inclusive darwinian fitness...

_________________The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true Art and Science. - Albert Einstein

Half of Frank's songs were about sex! Come on folks, it's pretty clear he was a happy participant on the road.

Betcha Gail wouldn't much like this thread.....

Apples and Oranges ... but I seriously doubt that Gail was not aware of it, or lacked the understanding of the life of a rock musician ... she would have to be totally naive and stupid ... and I seriously doubt that ... she shows and has showed over the years, a heck of a lot more than that!

I don't think that it was an "open book", any more than it was an "open house" for sex ... although sometimes I think that Pamela's first 2 books suggest there was more here, but even she played it down and brought it to the G rating ... !!!... which made me feel there was some serious dishonesty here ... ooooppps ... we can't talk about Don Johnson! (Probably the reason why the 2nd book is not being released again! ... and it was better than the first!)

In the end, those days were massively destroyed by the media for the drugs, sex, and what ever else ... and my generation has a few too many dishonest (I'm 60) folks that are not even capable of saying ... yeah ... I smoked a joint ... and that girl and I had sex in the drive inn ... whatever! ... because it made them feel cheap or whatever ... but in the end, all they are doing is lowering their own value, understanding and person -- making us/them, feel even less important amidst all this.

I think the media killing of that generation is the worst crime of the 20th century ... because when you kill the art, and th einner human spirit, you kill the person within ... and again, for an even longer period of time, you get people without a soul ... going around saying that "greed is good" (later) ... and not giving a damn about anything else!

In the end, this is all about us ... and are we honest enough, willing and loving enough ... to have respect for our generation, our choices, and our ability to cope with them ... and we failed. Badly ... we're angry ... and you know why ... we can't even look in the mirror and say hello without pointing a finger.

I don't care if Frank had sex once a day or ten times a day ... I care more that he made sure that his little house survived and he placed more emphasyz on his music than he did on his paramours or ladies of comfort ... while Gail was at home tending the babes. But you telling me that Gail didn't know? ... I'm more likely to believe that she was a part of it, than otherwise ... who the hell are you kidding? ...

Isn't there a legend wherein it's written that The Torture Never Stops original track counted with, humm, how should I put it, Zappa, Gail and other woman's unconventional musical participation?...

In the end, well I believe, I said I believe, I said I do believe, I said I really do believe, Well 'n I must say it one more time, I belieeeeeeeve... That these are their private affairs and business exclusively and that I should mind my own, when it comes to this realm.

As penguini brilliantly said above, it is all about the music...

So then, in the Torture Never Stops track...

_________________The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true Art and Science. - Albert Einstein

Yup, Frank even said in an interview that this "musical accompianment" was provided by Gail, himself and another lass. Said there was more than just a few minutes of material as well. Some of this was used on one "page" of this site quite a while back, before they changed the set-up a year or so ago. It wasn't for "What's New?", but it might have been "Stuff To Get". Wherever it was, it was pretty entertaining.

First of all, I have to agree with polydigm. I've been happily married for 23 years. I played in bands for years, had many one nighters before meeting my wife, and believe me - compared to having a committed relationship with the right person, the one night thing is for the birds. If it works for you, fine... but don't tell me that monogamy can't be satisfying.

As far as Frank’s infidelity is concerned, it’s certainly none of my business… but I’m quite certain his whole family was aware of what was going on. On the DVD about Apostrophe and Overnight Sensation, Moon says "He was a very quiet person who really put everything into his work, so in that way, it was almost like having a monk for a father - a monk with a lust for groupies..."

It's just really boring to keep seeing this supposedly Christian edict going around that we have to be this and that and monogamous and jailed. I'm just so tired of that ... and sometimes I really think that some people are just jealous inside that someone got two girls, or 3 or 4, and I got none kinda of thing.

According to some mistycs, the sex, many times, is much more liberating an influence than it is ever given credit for ... and maybe that is something that our judao-christian media can not accept, understand, and loves to go around convincing people that hell is gonna befall us because we dared dream!

It's just really boring to keep seeing this supposedly Christian edict going around that we have to be this and that and monogamous and jailed. I'm just so tired of that ... and sometimes I really think that some people are just jealous inside that someone got two girls, or 3 or 4, and I got none kinda of thing.

According to some mistycs, the sex, many times, is much more liberating an influence than it is ever given credit for ... and maybe that is something that our judao-christian media can not accept, understand, and loves to go around convincing people that hell is gonna befall us because we dared dream!

Yeah, man. When I'm strolling down the street with a few of my old ladies in tow I get these looks from the squares in my town. I totally get where you're comin' from.

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