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I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing the majority of attendants are in fact gay or bi men. However, there has already been more than a couple people say they would prefer a space other than a church. Unlike the greater society, you as a heterosexual are no longer the majority!

And bug- I wasn't talking to you, I was talking to Willy. Given, I've only been to one AMG, Boston, but our ceremony there was held in a small conference room type room and it was just gorgeous. I don't think we need to be in a huge church that seats 500 for just 30 of us for dramatic effect, do you? I rather think the intimate spaces are better.

And overreacting? Maybe... but I'm sick of people freaking out over gay stuff. I've had it! There is nothing wrong with being gay. If you think otherwise, you can go eat a brick!

So I hope you guys pick a place u like and have fun. Seattle is one of the nicest cities in the country. You will have a great time. Ody, try not to just poo poo the all pilgrims church idea straight away. I'm an atheist and not a fan of churches but it really is a nice and open place. I went there a few times with a friend to services and it had every type of person there, gay's, lesbians, elderly straight folks, kids, transsexuals, you name it. It was really the nicest churchs I have ever been too (it almost converted me....almost).

I have been through too much with christianity to ever be comfortable in a church again. It is a religion of persecution and oppression. Never mind that people try to make it accommodate those of us who are different, the main religion is simply off IMHO. I don't feel I should have to explain what I have gone through that makes me feel so deeply that I don't want to be in a church.

Did anyone consider that our hotel has conference rooms that we might be able to rent?

How dare you, I have never in my life heard such utter garbage, you young man have stepped way over the line, if you even think or suggest that I'm homophobic then you don't know me.

Your attitude disgusts me.

Jan-

I'm very sorry if you misunderstood me. I didn't mean to imply that you were homophobic. I guess what I wrote came across wrong. I should have used "one". I was going for the generic "you". As in, if one is homophobic, one can go eat a brick. I really, really, wasn't trying to refer specifically to you Jan. Lord knows you're really sweet and awesome! I'm so sorry I made it seem like I was insulting you!

I was determined that I wasn't going to post again. I have deep seated issues with the church and the thought of homosexuality/HIV/AIDS and a whole lot of other sins being condoned in a house of worship would be so contradictory to my history. I've been enjoying a new internal growth lately and if we hold the gathering in a church, I'll use that opportunity to deal with some of those demons. I'd rather see unity as a group than a bunch of diversities of individuals. Time to bring back some civility and approach this like the mature adults that we are.

If I wasn't only heavy meds, I'd probably be tipping a glass of white zin toasting you all.

« Last Edit: May 13, 2011, 11:23:25 PM by wolfter »

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Complacency is the enemy. Challenge yourself daily for maximum return on investment.

as this thread was barely started 24 hours ago, I don't feel that enough time has gone by for all options to be explored. (how many of the suggested places have even been contacted much less a response received). I believe a vote on the location for the memorial isn't warranted quite yet.

Odyssey I accept your apology, just calm down a little you are getting too upset over all this, the location hasn't been settled yet..but I like to think if it turns out to be in a church setting then you will be there with us all remembering our members who have passed away.

We are just putting forward suggestion right now and then it will be voted on, but it needs to be a place that the entire group will be happy with.

Yeah, guess I do need to chill a little. Talking about Western religion just gets me so wound up!

Anyway, seeing as Robert has seemingly indicated to me to run with this, I will be contacting the Dunshee (sp?) House Monday AM to inquire about use of their space for our memorial service. Apparently they are non-gay specific and non-religiously affiliated, so hopefully that should please everyone's tastes! I figure a phone call will get a better response than an email. I'll also call the ASO near the hotel to see about their space. And I'll call the hotel and ask how much the conference room would cost (probably out of our league, but worth looking at, as it would be uber-local and nice and private!). Also, will do further research for locations.

I suppose it was inevitable that something was going to cause a nasty scene -- things have gone along way to calmly in this AMG planning. It does sadden me that it is around the memorial service though. While we should consider all possiblities -- in the end it should simply be a space that will allow us privacy and protection from the elements. No matter where it is held -- I will be there, despite any feelings I have about religion or nature or offices.This isn't about US -- it's about those who have left us. PLEASE let's all be civil and assume positive intent from each other.

I hope everyone who attends Seattle will attend the memorial -- it is a terribly important part of the gathering.

No doubt, some people of faith will never accept homosexuality, and they have that right. But that doesn’t mean we need to be as orthodox in our own views towards religion. Peoples’ views on gay and transgender rights have been undergoing a rapid and dramatic change toward acceptance. This is reflected by the U.S. military moving away from the troubling days of "don't ask, don't tell," by allowing adoption by same-sex couples in many states and, in a few, providing official recognition of gay and lesbian unions. Last November the nation's first transgender judge was elected by, needless to say, a predominately heterosexual community. People change. Times change. People are not allowing dogma and past experiences dictate their views of life. We shouldn't either. Religion need not interfere with the spirit of our Gathering.

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...try not to just poo poo the all pilgrims church idea straight away. I'm an atheist and not a fan of churches but it really is a nice and open place. I went there a few times with a friend to services and it had every type of person there, gay's, lesbians, elderly straight folks, kids, transsexuals, you name it. It was really the nicest churchs I have ever been too (it almost converted me....almost)...BUG

I continue to be surprised that the memorial service has engendered such emotion...and none of it about the memorial itself, but the location! Oddysey, I enjoyed meeting you and getting to know you in Boston. I assume you remember the child I am speaking of is dear Mini. Last year, some additional children joined us as well with their mother. For heavens sake, we are not talking about homophobic people, but dear friends who have attended several AMGs and yes, I think showing sensitivity to them is warranted.

As Bocker has pointed out numerous times, the purpose of this service is to give voice to our memory of friends and loved ones who have died as well as give hope to those of us who live and grieve. This is NOT the venue for political or sociological debates (we have more than enough opportunities for that already.)

I continue to promise that the service will be appropriate and accommodating wherever and whenever we have it. Of all the options so far described, I personally think the All Pilgrims church option far excels over the others for appropriateness, openness, and commitment to the HIV+ community and the marginalized.

That having been said, I respect that I am only one voice among many. As long as we maintain a civil tone, I will respect the differing opinions of others until we arrive at a decision. I am still looking forward to our gathering together in August and making some new friends as well.

I guess I don't see what's wrong with bringing kids into a gay organization. I mean, they're going to be spending the week around all us friendly gays anyway, and like I said, it's not like we'd be dragging them into a place where adult behavior was going on. I think it's good for kids to see diversity. But I get it, some people think these parents will object.

Maybe it's best to look for nonreligious nongay specific locations. People have objections to both and we really do want everyone to attend in comfort!

Well, bugger all your suggestions! I propose that we have the memorial with all of us crammed into me and Santi's room. We'll bring all our scarves and throws and make it a right comfortable non-denominational Bedouin tent-like space, and we'll bring 24 highball glasses that shall serve to capture the wax-vapor that we always frown about and wave about as the service closes. We're right next to Pike's Market so we can strewer the place with flowers as well. And whisk away a grand silk to show that the bar's already set up. Because after the service, and especially after reading through this thread, I will/do need a bloody drink.

I've put it out there, folks. If you decide to have it somewhere else, I will be there, too. It seems that there are comfort zones to be considered and if you're not comfortable in my room, Baby, you'd better have a kick-ass venue agreed upon.

Well, bugger all your suggestions! I propose that we have the memorial with all of us crammed into me and Santi's room. We'll bring all our scarves and throws and make it a right comfortable non-denominational Bedouin tent-like space, and we'll bring 24 highball glasses that shall serve to capture the wax-vapor that we always frown about and wave about as the service closes. We're right next to Pike's Market so we can strewer the place with flowers as well. And whisk away a grand silk to show that the bar's already set up. Because after the service, and especially after reading through this thread, I will/do need a bloody drink.

I've put it out there, folks. If you decide to have it somewhere else, I will be there, too. It seems that there are comfort zones to be considered and if you're not comfortable in my room, Baby, you'd better have a kick-ass venue agreed upon.

LOL...that sound's like a plan, and one you have really thought hard about...

If that doesn't work out then have no fear we will find a wonderful, safe and special venue for all our group.

Does anyone else realize how you're perpetuating the stereotype that gays are somehow harmful to children and families? This is such bullshit! WTF! I'm sorry but what the hell?

Nobody is perpetuatiing any stereotype here, and I'm sorry that you see it that way. People (including yourself) are just trying to point out that we need to do this in a way that everyone is comfortable with. By insisting that we have it at a gay organization, do you realize that you are perpetuating a stereotype as well? The stereotype that HIV is gay disease. If you look at it a certain way, you can find something that will offend someone in every location. So how's about just getting over it and accepting that not everything in life will always work out to your liking. Remember, this memorial is about the dead, not us.

Even if we do have the service in some alternate place, it should at least finish in Basquo's room! What a great idea.... the tourists who flock Pike's Market will really have something memorable for their vacation photos after we are finished with them!

I'm relieved that we are now developing a sense of humor about all of this. Those angels watching over us are reminding us to celebrate life even as we remember them.

@ odyssey Dear, I have LEARNED to leave out any kinda religion, politics or ANY sexual orientation in some discussions, that is something that no-one can win at and agree on, for me it's better that way, also certain situations do call for for this, as others do not, I have to agree with others, it's about the DEAD, and not about the living, str8 gay. bi, transgenders it really matters NOT, that is what a Memorial is to me

« Last Edit: May 14, 2011, 01:42:29 PM by denb45 »

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I agree with RAB, this seems the perfect place, and a place that is accepting of all walks of life, if you arn't comfortable sitting in a Churh then maybe we can enquire about one of their meeting rooms,find out about availability and cost, tell them about our group and our reasons for being there, if it turns out to be too expensive then the Church itself looks very welcoming.

You know what, if everyone is so insistent that it be at a church, I guess you guys really want it to be at some sort of religious facility. FINE! I simply won't go to the ceremony. I have offered to help find another place that is free of religious and gay-centric themes for us to hold our ceremony at, but apparently that is not good enough. Jan, why don't you do the honors, and set things up with this Church yourself!

And Carl, I did not suggest Gay City because it was a gay organization, I suggested it because when I searched HIV organizations in Seattle it showed up really close to our hotel! The fact that it was gay seemed simply a bonus, in that they wouldn't start spouting homophobic bull at the queer-leaning folk among us.

You complained because you didn't want to sit in a Church so I suggested a room that is used for meetings and events, a room that is not in the church itself, it's outside the main church ...and still you complain..do what you want Ody I'm done with you.

I've already talked to the people from All Pilgrims vis a vis email. Jeremy Matheis is the Church Administrator. He has kindly offered the Chapel which he said would be a "...very nice space for the Gathering." He also said it would be available on Friday, Aug. 17. We just need to let him know the time.

He also noted a donation would be greatly appreciated.

As for them 'spouting homophobic bull' let me again quote our good friend "Bug" (buginme2)

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try not to just poo poo the all pilgrims church idea straight away. I'm an atheist and not a fan of churches but it really is a nice and open place. I went there a few times with a friend to services and it had every type of person there, gay's, lesbians, elderly straight folks, kids, transsexuals, you name it. It was really the nicest church I have ever been too (it almost converted me....almost)...BUG

Anyway, seeing as Robert has seemingly indicated to me to run with this, I will be contacting the Dunshee (sp?) House Monday AM to inquire about use of their space for our memorial service. Apparently they are non-gay specific and non-religiously affiliated, so hopefully that should please everyone's tastes! I figure a phone call will get a better response than an email. I'll also call the ASO near the hotel to see about their space. And I'll call the hotel and ask how much the conference room would cost (probably out of our league, but worth looking at, as it would be uber-local and nice and private!). Also, will do further research for locations.

I thought Odyssey was going to be checking on several locations on Monday when businesses were back open. Why does this have to be decided this weekend? And why, when several people have asked that if be family-orientated and NOT a church (which by the way includes all the rooms inside of a church), are several people here determined to set this up in a church? Why are some people's wishes being respected and not the wishes of some other people? I think it would be more respectful of everyone's wishes to take the next week to try to arrange some place that everyone can feel comfortable with.

Everyone - could you all please stop bickering over this? I don't see what the rush is, I honestly don't.

I suggest that a few venues are checked into this coming week and then the top two or three are put to a vote. There's no sense in trying to decide this over the weekend when all the facts are not yet in.

I'll say it again - please stop the bickering. This is no way to honour our dead.

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

In the six years I have been attending our Memorial services I have never seen such disrespect shown in any of the Memorial threads than I have this time round...and both from one who has attended only oneservice and the other who has never attended any.

Get over yourselves, this has nothing to do with religion or what community you belong to.

Personally I would like to see this thread locked and a new one started without anyone playing the gay/religion card, and showing a bit more respect for our services.

On Monday, I will be making contact with a couple of connections I have in Seattle. There are two locations that I may be able to secure - both located within 1 mile of the hotel - which I believe would satisfy all --- please allow me the opportunity to check into both on Monday and report back to everyone to allow for feedback.

On Monday, I will be making contact with a couple of connections I have in Seattle. There are two locations that I may be able to secure - both located within 1 mile of the hotel - which I believe would satisfy all --- please allow me the opportunity to check into both on Monday and report back to everyone to allow for feedback.

Thanks -Phil

Thanks Phil, souds good to me, look forward to hearing about your locations.

I'll say it again - please stop the bickering. This is no way to honour our dead.

Ann

After five years and countless forum flair ups, I have to say this one still came as a suprise. If this keeps up, ya'll may be memorializing me next year. You folks are stressing my t-cells over here.

For what it's worth: I'm not trying to minimize the stresses churches can have on folks. I'm down with that. I'm from genuine deep woods mountain Baptist stock - screaming & shouting, hands in the air & hell fire, dunk you in the river stuff. Like we didn't even get genuine out houses for the church until the early to mid 80's. No snake handling, but primitive for sure. I know all about living in the shadow of the cross.

But if a chapel is chosen, I'll walk in without thinking twice about it. For one thing, I know from previous experience that the memorial service, once it's underway, happens in a space that isn't really on any map - and you start to step into it the moment you leave your hotel room. For another, despite past issues I've had...it's like the song says about sowing the seed of love, ya know? If there are people working to get beyond past injuries and injustices and offer their hands in acceptance, good on them. If I extend mine back, good on me.

But most of all, I just wouldn't even dream of missing this particular event...and I seriously plea to anyone thinking of doing so to reconsider. It is, in my estimation, the key event of this gathering - and while I get that it is for honoring the dead, I would argue that it is all just about them. I believe it is very much about us as well because of how profoundly we are tied to them.

At any rate, I'd have to say if ya ain't gonna go to the Memorial Service...hon, ya might as well stay home. Ya know?

But most of all, I just wouldn't even dream of missing this particular event...and I seriously plea to anyone thinking of doing so to reconsider. It is, in my estimation, the key event of this gathering - and while I get that it is for honoring the dead, I would argue that it is all just about them. I believe it is very much about us as well because of how profoundly we are tied to them.

Very well said. Because the memorial isn't just about remembering those we've lost, it is also about those of us who are surviving. Gary does an excellent job of striking that balance.

I found thunter's comments to be very inspiring and moving. I remain confident that this "discussion" will ultimately and fruitfully result in an uplifiting and poignant memorial service wherever we have it.

After five years and countless forum flair ups, I have to say this one still came as a suprise. If this keeps up, ya'll may be memorializing me next year. You folks are stressing my t-cells over here.

For what it's worth: I'm not trying to minimize the stresses churches can have on folks. I'm down with that. I'm from genuine deep woods mountain Baptist stock - screaming & shouting, hands in the air & hell fire, dunk you in the river stuff. Like we didn't even get genuine out houses for the church until the early to mid 80's. No snake handling, but primitive for sure. I know all about living in the shadow of the cross.

But if a chapel is chosen, I'll walk in without thinking twice about it. For one thing, I know from previous experience that the memorial service, once it's underway, happens in a space that isn't really on any map - and you start to step into it the moment you leave your hotel room. For another, despite past issues I've had...it's like the song says about sowing the seed of love, ya know? If there are people working to get beyond past injuries and injustices and offer their hands in acceptance, good on them. If I extend mine back, good on me.

But most of all, I just wouldn't even dream of missing this particular event...and I seriously plea to anyone thinking of doing so to reconsider. It is, in my estimation, the key event of this gathering - and while I get that it is for honoring the dead, I would argue that it is all just about them. I believe it is very much about us as well because of how profoundly we are tied to them.

At any rate, I'd have to say if ya ain't gonna go to the Memorial Service...hon, ya might as well stay home. Ya know?

Seriously.

Wonderful...I agree with Gary, inspiring and moving post..this is why I and many others love you.

I think it is very relevant to point out that we have always had our memorial services at community centers or churches that were very gracious, kind and supporive in their attitudes toward gay, lesbian and transgendered folks. There is good and bad in every faith, race, and culture. Many churches and their regular parishoners are very tolerant people and why paint all people who go to church, temple or mosque as evil? Whether you are Christian or not, and I am not, I have never felt anything but welcome at any memorial I have gone to that took place at a church, such as in Montreal. Just the opposite in fact.

I feel blessed that I will be able to go again this year and we should all count our blessings in that regard, if I may say so.

Jody

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"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world". "Try to discover that you are the song that the morning brings."

I think it is very relevant to point out that we have always had our memorial services at community centers or churches that were very gracious, kind and supporive in their attitudes toward gay, lesbian and transgendered folks. There is good and bad in every faith, race, and culture. Many churches and their regular parishoners are very tolerant people and why paint all people who go to church, temple or mosque as evil? Whether you are Christian or not, and I am not, I have never felt anything but welcome at any memorial I have gone to that took place at a church, such as in Montreal. Just the opposite in fact.

I feel blessed that I will be able to go again this year and we should all count our blessings in that regard, if I may say so.

Jody

Montreal was a great experience and a wonderful service in such beautiful surroundings, and the plaque we unvieled will, hopefully, last for as long as the Church stands...a reminder of where it came from and why it was placed there.

I think it is very relevant to point out that we have always had our memorial services at community centers or churches that were very gracious, kind and supporive in their attitudes toward gay, lesbian and transgendered folks. There is good and bad in every faith, race, and culture. Many churches and their regular parishoners are very tolerant people and why paint all people who go to church, temple or mosque as evil? Whether you are Christian or not, and I am not, I have never felt anything but welcome at any memorial I have gone to that took place at a church, such as in Montreal. Just the opposite in fact.

I was there a few weeks ago. It is fixed permanently to a wall with all kinds of dedications for persons who have died from AIDS. I visit there every time I am in the city since we had our AMG there. Amazingly, this is a Catholic church where some would expect a hostile reaction...but quite the contrary. Of course this church is a permanent fixture in the gay Village and nearly all its members are gay. Nevertheless, we were so kindly and lovingly received there.

Hi All:The one place I contacted today may have availability however, we would have to get insurance and sign a contract, etc.

The other place seems promising; however, the Executive Director, who I have to speak with won't be in the office until tomorrow.

I also think that another member is checking a location that also might be available for the Memorial Service.

We should hopefully have something to put out to everyone for feedback by mid-week/end-of-the-week at the latest.

Thank you all for your patience and for your input (while honest feedback sometimes evokes varioius emotions, as long as it is honest, and not said to be hurtful to any individuals or groups of individuals it can be used productively)

thanks phildinftlaudy, and other members, for trying to locate a suitable place where we will all (under-age, religious, non-religious, straight, or gblt) feel comfortable for the service. I'm sure none of us really wants any of the others, who will be gathering together in Seattle with us, to feel alienated - and especially not by the memorial service.

Thanks again Phil, I'm sure you will come up with something suitable for all...and just for the record, no-one in the 6 years I have been attending the AMG Memorial has ever been alienated or made to feel alientated....it has always been about the member who attend the Gatherings and remembering the members and loved ones we have lost.

I had the honour for sharing and presenting our first "Official" Memorial with Alan (alanbama) in a beautiful Chapel setting in Montreal, and also presenting one in San Fransisco in the Aids Memorial Park...both were a beautiful experience and enjoyed by those who attended.