Originally Posted by Akib
Well its not too hard to do, if you are talking about ODIs. I listed all our wins in a previous post. Just follow the match links. Also, reason we are all focusing on ash, is because traditionally the mantra is that he is our match winner. What we are debating is whether this is true or not..

How about the rest of the players who got MOM s? See you are too focused on Ash and ignoreing others. Unless I have those, I cannot make a conclusion. You guys already made up your mind that's why you don't need any data for other players. As for myself, I am looking for all the MOMs for all the ODI that BD played.

Therefore patient my friend, I will make my comments on ODI when I feel more copnfotable after I analyse the whole data of all MOMs

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akib
as for the MOM criteria, I disagree with it. Personally I think many ppl contribute to a win.

I think you are confusing MOM with contributers in that game. If someone gets a MOM doesn't mean we should ignore the contribution of others. But to be a MOM, you have to be a "Match Winner" type contribution not like a cotributor type supporting role. Atleast thats how I see it MOMs.

Now overall a player's contribution. Can we measure that purely on MOMs. Definelty NO. it can play as supporting role, but Avreage plays a much much significant role. Thats tells you, day-in day-out, which players are contributing more than others.

Man of the match is given generally to a player from the winning team. So judging our players by this will not prove much, as like people stated earlier we have won only a single match of these tests. Sometimes a player for Bangladesh might have played exceptional but it was just that the team didnt win for him not to get the man of the match. Batting average and bowling economy and catches taken are the sort of things we should keep an eye for. But most importantly the day Bangladesh becomes the "top" in world cricket?

I almost agreed with all of your thread starter post except the MOM part.

To be honest, we do not have one single match winner. There has been some match winning performances by individuals( ODI's specially ), and some that has match winning potentials. Some just stick out more because of the way he played a particular innings. Everybody remembers Tamim vs India in WC, but Sakib and Mushy went noticed, even though they finished the deal. In the end, it is a team effort, and no one can claim to be a match winner, unless he has consistently contributed in games that we have won. We have a few MOM's after losing a game and as such, that category is null and void, since he was not a part of the match winning team.

Match winner is a reputation tag who has individualy been exceptional in winning situations. Over the years, after every win, if a certain player consistently shows up on the positive score sheet, he may earn that tag. And, if a team loses, and that player doesn't fare well in that particular game, some may say, oh.. so and so failed and the team lost! Its a perception you see. But, it is a perception based on previous performance that earns that reputation, fairly or unfairly. But, if that player has the flair for dramatics and has been part of winning games with sheer brilliance, he will earn that tag faster than somebody else on the team who has been equally good, but probably less subdued in his innings. Jayasuriya will get the props before Sangakkara any day for example, in a given match that they have won.

Ashraful has played some exceptional innings in his tenure with us. Anybody that disputes that is ignoring the fact. Is he a match winner? NO. Has he played a few match winning performances that captivated audiences world wide? Clearly. He for sure has the potential. Don't take my word, just watch how an opposition celebrates after getting his wkt, as opposed to anybody else in our team. They rate him. I do to. But, the problem is he overrates himself. Anyway..don't want to hijack this thread and make it a Ash thread!

As someone already mentioned, if you want to look for a match winner in Test, you should look for which batsmen scored most centuries and which bowler took most 5-ers.

Since we haven't won any Test except the match against Zimb, Each century and each 5-er should be considered as a match-winning performance.

In ODIs, sometimes less contributors get the MoM . Example is Aftab Ahmed against Srilanka in Bogura. He scored the quick 30+ score and got the MoM award. Ash scored the highest score (50+), didn't get it. It's all depends on the match situations.

Originally Posted by muradnyc
As someone already mentioned, if you want to look for a match winner in Test, you should look for which batsmen scored most centuries and which bowler took most 5-ers.

Since we haven't won any Test except the match against Zimb, Each century and each 5-er should be considered as a match-winning performance....

Bah Bah!! Match na jitey'o match winner. We are truly Bangladeshis. Olpo'tei shontushto. If you want to tag BD players with glorious titles then Tag NI, JO as series winners.

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Originally Posted by Auntu
Simply we don't have any match winner at present.
Ash, Mash, Shakib can turn into in future...who knows..

You and I agree, however, thousands disagree. If numbers are an indication then we are on the wrong end. Yet those same people scream when some one mention super stars or stars in this BC. Junaid Siddique thread rings a bell? Ajob dunia.

__________________
The Weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is an attribute of the Strong." - Gandhi.

I almost agreed with all of your thread starter post except the MOM part.

To be honest, we do not have one single match winner. There has been some match winning performances by individuals( ODI's specially ), and some that has match winning potentials. Some just stick out more because of the way he played a particular innings. Everybody remembers Tamim vs India in WC, but Sakib and Mushy went noticed, even though they finished the deal. In the end, it is a team effort, and no one can claim to be a match winner, unless he has consistently contributed in games that we have won. We have a few MOM's after losing a game and as such, that category is null and void, since he was not a part of the match winning team.
......

Beamer

ThanKs for your feedback. Its not that I disagree what you said,. I kind of agree what you said. When you said i.e. "Match winner is a reputation tag". I agree with that as long as its fan's way to appreciate their stars.....but when peoples start using this "Match winner" tag and try to make a case why some players should get some more chance in the team despite recent failures, I have a problem with that... as the fans version of "Match winner" is driven by emmotioon and not necessarily by facts. And if you start giving free ride in the name of he/she is the "Match winner" we only have, we loose all kind of credibility issue with respect to accountability that we all think is a BIG problem in the whole system.

So what you do? I was trying to come up with a more measurable criteria how to measure a potential match Winner, if we want to reward a match winner. Its noit perfect, it better than nothing.

The other part I am kind of disagree with you and some others that we shouldn't discount a MOM for a losing game. If some one gets a MOM even his team lose, he must have done something spectacular to get that dispite his own team's loss.

And, you have done a good job with the charts. Every effort to measure some criteria or other can never be overlooked. Good job.

Fans will say whatever they want. You and I might not like it, but its their opinion, and surely they are free to tag whatever they want to an individual. Now, selectors must not fall in that category, and that's why I took exception when people in position were parroting same old 'natural game' line, and they must not also pay heed to tags attached to players by fans. They have to make their own judgements on individuals.

I didn't discount MOM's in losses. They are important. It means, even in a losing effort, someone did their best. But, I thought it didn't belong in the same sentences with match winning when it came in a loss. Match Winner was the title? Wasn't it?

Call it our misfortune, but, the way I see it, it is almost impossible to ignore Ashraful in the team. Only way Ash can be ignored if the other six-seven batsmen in the team make him redunadant. In other words, when we no longer have to switch the TV off after he is out, when other six men ( heck, I will settle with four )in the batting line averages a whopping ten-fifteen runs higher than him, only then the selectors will not deal with him. I, for one do not buy for one second, that he is misleading the players with his batting attitude and style. If that is the case, then none, I repeat none deserve to be in the team. With him gone, the spotlight will fall on somebody else, and if the results stay the same, we will be stuck again the way we are stuck now. In a nutshell, Selectors hands are tied, and only the players with their consistent performances collectively, can make them think otherwise. If you want him out of the team, talk to me, when Tamim-Zunaid-Rakib-Sakib etc, game in and out, outplay, outscore, outthink him as an unit and make him meaningless. Selectors will not take that chance. I don't blame them.

We are truely Bangladeshi not Ausies. Should never forget what was our standard and expectation when we got the test status. Some of us are trying to pretend that we are Aus/Eng. MOM generally goes to the winning team, but why a Bangladeshi got MOM after losing a test? Because his performance was truely winning. That was a moral victory for Bangl;adesh in those matches. Wemust never forget those contributions and never try to undermine those.

The stats (however manipulated) presented in this thread (MOM) couldn't ignore ashes contribution yet. Just beacuse someone else has simiar contribution in our victories, doesn't downgrade Ash, rathar brings another person in his row. That person also deserves recognition for his performance. To raise someone up, you don't need to pull someone down.

This situation reminds me of those children, who refuses to recognize his farmer/poor father after being so called educated & earning some money & status. One who is refusing to acknowledge the contributions of Ash in BD cricket is just like that so called ill educated guy who feels ashamed to identify his father in public. We shoudn't ever forget what those centuries in test cricket meant for BD at that time.

fazal is right, we don't have any match-winners in test cricket. we suck. shakib is the only potential right now.

now here is a question: i would consider dravid to be a test match-winner due to his obvious calibre, but because of his batting style (natural game, lol), he's more a Match-drawer. does anyone else agree/disagree?

in ODIs, ash is our highest calibre match winner. his mean score in our wins against top sides is 51, whereas the next highest, sakib's is 42. but we do have other match winners, tamim, aftab, sakib, are easily match winners on potential and have in the past won us games with superb play. ash has just done it more times against better teams, on bigger stages.

even guys like mushfiqur, raqib, and junaid can be semi-match-winners. a gutsy 50 can often win you a game on a difficult batting surface.

on the bowling front, mash is a match winner in ODIs, the old razzak was too. rasel is just a consistent guy, who's performance in our wins might not have been eye-popping, but were tidy and crucial nonetheless.

Originally Posted by Fazal
I guess in other word you are saying its a bhua thing used by fans to pretect their under achieving suoperstart by just saying he or she is a match winner as its virtual thing, they don't have to back up any stat.

Actually not "Bhua". We cannot underestimate fans emotion towards his/her supporting team. But it is not very wise if we try to find whether a player is Match Winner or not by statistics. I gave the example of Tendulkar.

Originally Posted by Fazal
I suggest you to re-read your own comments. Why its have to be the universe needs to run around Ash? Arn't we forgeting for a moment that Ash is just one out of 11 players who plays for our beloved team?

I re-read my post but dont see anywhere I said once-in-while 'Match Winner' is enough to be in the team. Aren't you asking wrong man wrong question?

Quote:

This thread is not about Ashraful, its about how we can measure "Match Winning Potential" amoung our players and really try to find out do we have any potential match winners? If yes who are those?

How would you be able to find convincing new legitimate way if you deliberately decide to ignore existing fact and way?

Besides what so hurry to find a new way anyway?? Not we having headache having too many wins in our hand, Nor with too many arguable 'Match winner' in the team! Nor some pissed off fans roaming all over because THEIR 'Match Winner' unjustly robbed the tag!! So all it comes down to one point, ... that is Ash doesnt deserve 'Match Winner' tag and those people are calling wrong.

This soul searching effort would have convinced me if we had 'proper needs' and 'enough data'. [just my feelings]

Quote:

Digging out those bulletins is a good idea that requires lots of work. But why only Ash related reprots, why not for all of our players? See you are pretty much stuck with Ash mania and ignoring other players.You are accusing me to that I devised this PMOMR stuff to nail down Ash, but you yourself is ignore the rest of the teammates in your discussion as if they don't exists.

Seems you are bit confused here, I explicitly said about the report on those 4 matches and clearly said if you see Ash's exceptional contributions on those reports!! Meaning others contribution in those matches were not praised up to the level as Ash had. So I did not ignore others contribution, perhaps you read my comment in different context.

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Teammates should support each other publicly and only disfunctional team say bad things about each other. I don't see what you point there in that aspect.

Well, If Mash, Sakib, Bashar and co., think [in fact they did say] Ash can win a match for BD, or when Ash plays well BD plays well etc., for the sake of legitimacy ... Dont you think it value more than what me, Fazal and many here says?

Originally Posted by Beamer
Match winner is a reputation tag who has individualy been exceptional in winning situations. Over the years, after every win, if a certain player consistently shows up on the positive score sheet, he may earn that tag. And, if a team loses, and that player doesn't fare well in that particular game, some may say, oh.. so and so failed and the team lost! Its a perception you see. But, it is a perception based on previous performance that earns that reputation, fairly or unfairly. But, if that player has the flair for dramatics and has been part of winning games with sheer brilliance, he will earn that tag faster than somebody else on the team who has been equally good, but probably less subdued in his innings. Jayasuriya will get the props before Sangakkara any day for example, in a given match that they have won.

Ashraful has played some exceptional innings in his tenure with us. Anybody that disputes that is ignoring the fact. Is he a match winner? NO. Has he played a few match winning performances that captivated audiences world wide? Clearly. He for sure has the potential. Don't take my word, just watch how an opposition celebrates after getting his wkt, as opposed to anybody else in our team. They rate him. I do to. But, the problem is he overrates himself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beamer
Fans will say whatever they want. You and I might not like it, but its their opinion, and surely they are free to tag whatever they want to an individual. Now, selectors must not fall in that category, and that's why I took exception when people in position were parroting same old 'natural game' line, and they must not also pay heed to tags attached to players by fans. They have to make their own judgements on individuals.

Originally Posted by PoorFan
I blame Fazal because he made me look like I am a genuine [blind] Ash fan.

Poorfan,
You accused me first that I set up the criteria so that to target one player and to makes sure he looks bad which I thougt uncalled for in this case. Currently I don't want Ash in the current team, thats no secret. But this thread is not about any individualk player. Its an excercise I wanted to go through so that I can reevaluate by pre-conceived idea who the real impact contributers in the team. The iead of this thread spawn off from a discussion from another Ash thread. But this thread is not about one player, its about all the players in the team.

If I really wanted to target Ash (as you accused me), I could have added (as some people suggested) and manupulate the data ( by adding extra condition to target a player) by adding a condition that game need to be a WIN for us to be included in the MOM count... that would make Ash's MOM count from 3 to 0. I didn 't did that because I thought a MOM is match winning kind of performqance win or lose it doenl;t matter and the player should be rewarded. Nor did I set my mind who is the potentail Match Winner in advance and before gathering and analysing the data. That is the same reason that I resisted to comment on ODI before I do the same excercise I did with TEST.

Now if you don't give me the benifit of doubt, I guess it should be ok if you also don't get from me either.

Seems you are bit confused here, I explicitly said about the report on those 4 matches and clearly said if you see Ash's exceptional contributions on those reports!! Meaning others contribution in those matches were not praised up to the level as Ash had. So I did not ignore others contribution, perhaps you read my comment in different context.

yes I am kind of confused. As a precess, you advice to read matche reports also, then my point is, you cannot pick an choose for 4 matches only that you mentioned. It have toi be all the 58 matches for TEST also. and thats was my point. I hope its clear now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoorFan
Well, If Mash, Sakib, Bashar and co., think [in fact they did say] Ash can win a match for BD, or when Ash plays well BD plays well etc., for the sake of legitimacy ... Dont you think it value more than what me, Fazal and many here says?

Ofcourse a player's, coach's or ex-players or a reporters comment weigh much more than you and me. But as I said, you would realy see a current player critisize a teammate in public. And they are not suppose to do. So what you expect mashree or Shaib to say in pulic? He is a cancer? Try to be realistic here.

Originally Posted by Beamer
Call it our misfortune, but, the way I see it, it is almost impossible to ignore Ashraful in the team.Only way Ash can be ignored if the other six-seven batsmen in the team make him redunadant. In other words, when we no longer have to switch the TV off after he is out, when other six men ( heck, I will settle with four )in the batting line averages a whopping ten-fifteen runs higher than him, only then the selectors will not deal with him. I, for one do not buy for one second, that he is misleading the players with his batting attitude and style. If that is the case, then none, I repeat none deserve to be in the team. With him gone, the spotlight will fall on somebody else, and if the results stay the same, we will be stuck again the way we are stuck now. In a nutshell, Selectors hands are tied, and only the players with their consistent performances collectively, can make them think otherwise. If you want him out of the team, talk to me, when Tamim-Zunaid-Rakib-Sakib etc, game in and out, outplay, outscore, outthink him as an unit and make him meaningless. Selectors will not take that chance. I don't blame them.

Well said and I don't disagree with what you are saying based on the reality that we are stucked with. However I kind of disagree with one point highlighted in your comment. I don't think Ash should be competing with the openers or the bowling all-rounders. So basically I think Ash is competing with Middle order batsman and batting allrounders. In other words for middle order batsman competetion between 3rd to 6th slots (i.e. between 4 players including Ashraful)

Originally Posted by al Furqaan
fazal is right, we don't have any match-winners in test cricket. we suck. shakib is the only potential right now.

now here is a question: i would consider dravid to be a test match-winner due to his obvious calibre, but because of his batting style (natural game, lol), he's more a Match-drawer. does anyone else agree/disagree?

in ODIs, ash is our highest calibre match winner. his mean score in our wins against top sides is 51, whereas the next highest, sakib's is 42. but we do have other match winners, tamim, aftab, sakib, are easily match winners on potential and have in the past won us games with superb play. ash has just done it more times against better teams, on bigger stages.

even guys like mushfiqur, raqib, and junaid can be semi-match-winners. a gutsy 50 can often win you a game on a difficult batting surface.

on the bowling front, mash is a match winner in ODIs, the old razzak was too. rasel is just a consistent guy, who's performance in our wins might not have been eye-popping, but were tidy and crucial nonetheless.

Its is hard to tag a batsman as match -winner, loser, drawerin tests! It really is. As a matter of fact, in the end, its the bowlers generally who decide the outcome of a test match, whether its a draw, win or a loss. Does it mean that a batsman hasn't won a test or two by himself? Plenty. But, in the course of two innings, five days ( if needed ) and the battle of nerves, it takes an entire batting line-up ( bowlers included ) to post a sizeable score that stands between victory or a loss. To me, anybody who averages over 50, with that many centuries like Dravid is a winner.

Originally Posted by Fazal
yes I am kind of confused. As a precess, you advice to read matche reports also, then my point is, you cannot pick an choose for 4 matches only that you mentioned. It have toi be all the 58 matches for TEST also. and thats was my point. I hope its clear now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoorFanMatch Winner : The player who contributed MOST in a winning match ... should be as simple as that.

And Ash did contributed MOST in few of our winning matches ( ZIM, AUS, SA, WI ), unlike anyone rest yet to conted. So why its so hard to accept if anyone wish to call him a match winner for BD?

Oh well, We are standing on different ground from the beginning.

Quote:

Ofcourse a player's, coach's or ex-players or a reporters comment weigh much more than you and me. But as I said, you would realy see a current player critisize a teammate in public. And they are not suppose to do. So what you expect mashree or Shaib to say in pulic? He is a cancer? Try to be realistic here.

Sure they wont, nor they would say something high without firm ground and believe - also a realistic pick.

Originally Posted by Fazal
Poorfan,
You accused me first that I set up the criteria so that to target one player and to makes sure he looks bad which I thougt uncalled for in this case. ...

Now if you don't give me the benifit of doubt, I guess it should be ok if you also don't get from me either.

Oh no! That one liner post was a pure joke! Seems like that 'Red face' icon doesnt work as much as a wink does.

Jokes apart -
In my understanding in a discussion we all here try to put some light from possible different perspective, angle are the elements or fractions of an issue to see it wide. And these elements are making discussion interesting, thoughtful, useful and alive, not necessarily has [or taken] to be conclusive. Had enough of my boaring lecture I guess ...

In that sense your effort and perspective in this thread has its own interest and merit, otherwise we would not be posting here. In the same line I have placed my message [thoughts and feelings] from different [or my] perspective open for discussion, not conclusive for this whole issue, nor demand everyone here on this thread to agree with.

So I would ask you not to take it as 'accuse' rather take it as shade of this whole discussion. Anyway I am looking forward to your work on ODI stats, to see whats new, and how far we can go with such limited success in our cricket.