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Re: Was things really necessary?

Originally Posted by Impossibility

I'm just going to put the differences between us down to subjective interpretation, because at this point I think we're unlikely to convince the other or much. We read the manga, and we have invested and have perceptions of characters that have built up over years and are unlikely to change. And, I'm getting slightly exhausted writing so much in these posts.

You could put it down that way, but only one side has evidence supporting it's interpretation.

Originally Posted by Impossibility

One could say exactly the same thing about Sasuke. He would've had no chance to compete against the likes of Deidara, Danzo, A, or the other bigs, if he had not gotten CS from Orochimaru, and then Itachi's eyes.

Not really. MS doesn't grant a physical boost and CS was used partially. Neither granted him an enhancement to succeed. Sasuke would have still been physically capable of fighting against those opponents.

Re: Was things really necessary?

Originally Posted by Impossibility

Your references are terrible, just to point out. What you showed was the initial interaction between Sasuke and Naruto before they began their actual fight. A few pages later, in that same chapter, Naruto is no longer utilising his Kyuubi chakra, and then Sasuke stops utilising the CS. About ten chapters later, in 227, after Sasuke puts up his Chidori against Naruto's Rasengan, he determines that he needs to utilise his CS to overcome the stalemate between himself and Naruto, who is not using the Kyuubi chakra at the time. Take a look, you can start here and read on a few pages.

No, you're disecting the correct order of the manga and putting it at the exact point where Sasuke admits to lacking power. Which is desperate considering the power of Chidori compared to Rasengan has absolutely nothing to do with the overall levels of both ninja. The manga scans I showed was literally the beginning of the fight. But if you want to start from when niether is using Sharingan, CS, or Kyuubi, then you would start here:

No need for ninjutsu or Sharingan or CS when they're both just going hand to hand. Naruto however resorts to grandiose expense of chakra. The gap has NOT been closed between them. And the only reason he deemed it necessary to go back to CS is because he simply didn't have the chakra to waste on a stalemate jutsu. He needed to hit a decisive blow.

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As for your comments about Kurama saving Naruto, the exact same could be said about Sasuke's Sharingan and CS. The battle against Haku, his Sharingan kept him alive a while. His Sharingan completed in the middle of his battle with Naruto so that he could carry on. His CS allowed him to fight the Sound Genin during the Second Test. His CS2 popped up to save him in the middle of the battle with Naruto. Don't get me wrong, Kurama saves Naruto quite frequently. But Sasuke has had just as many saves as Naruto. But the thing is Kurama is a conscious being, interested in protecting Naruto. Sasuke's saves are just by chance.

The fact that Sasuke's powerups are dependent on his own control isn't half as bad as having a sentient being deciding to save you. Kurama has to actively acknowledge that Naruto is dead meat without him, and then save him. Sasuke however, with the CS, could activate it at any moment he wanted to. He just had to choose to do so. And the Sharingan's evolution in battle has allowed him to win 1 fight alone, and that was against Bee. And even then, it was more like surviving than winning.

There's never been a moment where Sasuke's victory was determined by how quickly a new boost of power can manifest itself. Not like with Naruto.

Re: Was things really necessary?

Originally Posted by Rikudou King

To be fair, the on the fly comment was in reference to his later gains. I consider the Kyuubi to be a base power for Naruto, akin to Bloodline Limits and such, except for the obvious difference. Same with the Shadow Clone technique, since it's actually rare for a technique to be foreshadowed before it's used.

The only "on the fly" power he obtained is Bijuu Mode, and even that was foreshadowed.
It happened out of nowhere, on this we both agree though

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Pretty sure that was a jest. Going by what was shown, Jiraiya didn't even consider Akatsuki a physical threat til the confrontation with Itachi and Kisame.

Who knows. Point is, nothing was said beyond combining nature and Rasengan.

Rasen Shuriken is kinda like a giant Wind Rasengan

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But he didn't gain it then. And it was more like the Kyuubi stopped him. It was shown to be a superior version of the regular Sharingan upon introduction and went along with the groundwork Itachi laid for Sasuke being the only one that could defeat him.

We were still told he had some control over those versions. Not that any of that matters now, since all that has been recon.

It still wasn't enough, considering Sasuke showed to be able to turn it off pretty easily.
That cloak depended only on Kyuubi's willingness to help Naruto, and it was a minimal fraction of its own power as well

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I think there's a difference between Naruto employing a Rikudou Sennin technique given by Minato to somehow being destined to bring the Bijuus together.

I meant the whole Uzumaki-Senju connection, since they both descends from Rikudou Sennin

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Originally Posted by M3J

Without Jiraiya's training, he wouldn't be able to actively use Kyuubi's chakra whenever he wanted, but he wouldn't necessarily be a berkserker. Jiraiya's training was to summon toads, not for Naruto to be able to use Kyuubi's chakra at will. Naruto didn't have to work for it at all, since Jiraiya told him about Kyuubi's chakra. From there all Naruto needed to do was feel in danger or be in danger so he could use the chakra, which didn't come at a price as Kyuubi would have lent its chakra to him anyway.

Naruto really didn't have to work for the chakra. All he needed, from the looks of it, was information that he did get Kyuubi's chakra, and for Jiraiya to push him into danger.

Naruto lost control in more than one occasion, so yes, it had a price, considering also it harmed his own body

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Training to use Kyuubi's chakra after he stole it? It was earned, it's his power. But the chakra he used that was given by Kyuubi is not really him trainin for it, other than precise use (like not breaking whatever he grips), which itself is debatable after Kyuubi's will came with the chakra.

Sasuke also trained for Mangekyo and in a way, EMS (even if he did get it for free/without a price). The difference is, unlike with Naruto and past training, Sasuke couldn't train his Mangekyo casually, he had to do it in battle to make the most use of it since it did have a permanent detrimental effect on his eyes. Both Naruto and Sasuke had help in getting Kyuubi's chakra or Mangekyo Sharingan, even though they still worked for it.

^ Exactly, Sasuke isn't tragically left out just like Naruto isn't.
Both had their huge offering of free power ups, but they also worked for them

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Naruto didn't need to train at all, he just needed to finetune it, otherwise he could speedblitz or use chakra arms any time he wanted. The difference is, chakra arms would have been useless in helping allies while speedblitz depended, but Naruto could just avoid landing on walls. Hell, we don't even know if he did train to be more agile while using Kyuubi's chakra tob oost his speed.

Naruto didn't really train for bijuudama though. For some reason, it worked in bijuu mode despite Naruto himself making it, when it didn't in normal Kyuubi's chakra mode. That's kinda weird. But anyway, Naruto perfected bijuudama, like he did with rasengan and Sage Mode clones, in a fight, like how Sasuke got Sharingan or improved Sharingan in a fight. Difference is, it didn't help Sasuke win without a problem, whereas Naruto was able to fight without as much difficulty.

And how could he finetune his control without training ?
Just like how Sasuke needed in-battle experience to awaken Susano'o.

As for the Bijuudama, he did train for it, he just couldn't use it effectively until turning into Bijuu Mode.
Also when Naruto won "without a problem" ? Against the Bijuus? That was him and Kyuubi together with Hachibi and Bee.
Perfect Jinchuurikis are two people in one, you can't say Naruto won alone, just like you can't say Bee won alone against Kisame

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Oh, okay.

Not really, as it's been said many times that Sharingan was rare among Uchihas. Might as well admit that Naruto didn't earn the right to use Kyuubi chakra either, since he either unknowingly used it or used it to save himself, since it is another power.And Sasuke did train for Amaterasu adn Susano'o since he did use it in a fight. He didn't know he could control Amaterasu, use Susano'o, or use a more complete Susano'o until later.

He doesn't need to train for EMS though. That's like saying Naruto needs to train to use Kyuubi's chakra without knowing it. Naruto didn't earn Kyuubi either, he only got it because Minato thought Naruto would be a good choice.

What I meant is that life-death situations are pretty common in the ninja work, so that requirement isn't all that great imo.

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I know, just like how CS2 was harming Sasuke.

The blindness was real, and Cursed Seal still made it harder for Sasuke to fight. Naruto had Fukasaku to stop him from turning into a toad or stone, and then when he finally perfected it, he didn't need to worry much. The cloak may have harmed him, but it still gave him tremendous power and ability to do rasengan with one hand.

Once again though, same boat. Once CS2 and Sage Mode were mastered, they never needed to worry about the negatives. Blindness and harmful effect of Kyuubi chakra were bypassed.

The blindness was real, just like Kyuubi's poisonous chakra was real, just like Cursed Seal's danger was real, just like Sage Mode risks were real, point is all of them never, and I mean never costed Sasuke or Naruto fights, they were used as plot devices.

Did Sasuke lost against Danzou? Or Naruto lost against Pein? No to both, despite Sasuke nearing blindness with Susano'o spammage and Naruto transforming into the 8 tail vesion

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Why would he want to kill Kyuubi? He never wanted to kill Kyuubi, he needed its power (though I honestly think Sage mode Naruto with good genjutsu defense would have done the trick against Sasuke). Naruto may have hated the Kyuubi (from what he said later, he never hated it), but he wouldn't have killed it. If he wanted to act on his hate, Kakashi and Fukasaku would be buried now.

Half a fight against the Kyuubi with mother as Naruto's ally is not that worse compared to a full fight with a sick Itachi that wouldn't kill. Kyuubi began to dominate Naruto, but thanks to Kushina he failed and was suppressed. Then Kushina yanked on her chakra chain, which caused the Kyuubi to fall. Even at the beginning, Naruto had Bee's help. Naruto never won purely with his own power, like how Sasuke never won purely on his own merits. Same boat here as well.

Its now him wanting to kill Kyuubi, is him being able to deal massive damage to Kyuubi and also having the capacities to seriously harm him on his own, a feat very few character can claim for themselves.

And Kyuubi "dominated" not because of attacks or skills, but because, when Naruto stole his chakra, he let his hate fill Naruto. Up until that point, Naruto was the one "dominating".
And yes, its worse since Kyuubi is way stronger than Itachi ( expecially a sick, near-blind one ) and doesn't have problems in killing the enemy.

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Thanks to the Kyuubi, Naruto can learn almost any jutsu faster than Sasuke, and do more chakra-exhaustive jutsu constantly. If Naruto's in danger, he can increase his speed and strength all he wants, be healed, and gain a good defense that not even swords can damage him. Sasuke can only get good defense and long-range attacks that uses up chakra, he can't heal or increase his speed or strength.

Scroll never mentioned kage bunshin. For all we know, it could have been rasengan or even Mokuton before it was established as the rarest kekkei genkai ever.

Eh?

Considering Mizuki didn't know what was in the scroll, it would've been impossible for him to know, and Naruto did read to himself the first jutsu on the scroll, which was Kage Bushin

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Because Kishi wanted to give Naruto a more destructive jutsu? Fuuton: rasengan was the only thing foreshadowed, because it was the complete version of rasengan. Naruto, which was not hinted, took it a step further with FRS.

It wasn't. It was the final step, otherwise why would Kakashi see how fuuton: rasengan did against a normal rasengan if it wasn't finished yet?

Because it was where Kakashi couldn't help Naruto anymore:
grasped nature manipulation and how to fuse it with the Rasengan, it was Naruto's turn to come up with his new jutsu, developing it even further.

Also see here, Naruto almost completed the jutsu that would let him take Sasuke back.
Which was the objective of the whole training. If Fuuton Rasengan was enough, he would've stopped

Re: Was things really necessary?

Originally Posted by Rikudou King

You could put it down that way, but only one side has evidence supporting it's interpretation.

Not really. MS doesn't grant a physical boost and CS was used partially. Neither granted him an enhancement to succeed. Sasuke would have still been physically capable of fighting against those opponents.

I find your comment a bit amusing, considering that even you've admitted to some of Sasuke's random power ups and new abilities. And that by your own reasoning the only abilities not foreshadowed are those that Naruto gained from the Kyuubi after he mastered his chakra. You've admitted more unforeseen abilities on Sasuke's part than those you've put forth for Naruto.

And your second comment has to be some sort of joke. Because I think it is clear to anyone who's read the fights between Sasuke and his opponents in Part II of the manga knows that he relied on CS2 to stay alive and then on Itachi's eyes. Explain how he would've survived A, or Danzo, or Kabuto without the MS. The implication that he would've held his own against them without his MS is just ridiculous.

Originally Posted by ninjabot

No, you're disecting the correct order of the manga and putting it at the exact point where Sasuke admits to lacking power. Which is desperate considering the power of Chidori compared to Rasengan has absolutely nothing to do with the overall levels of both ninja. The manga scans I showed was literally the beginning of the fight. But if you want to start from when niether is using Sharingan, CS, or Kyuubi, then you would start here:

No need for ninjutsu or Sharingan or CS when they're both just going hand to hand. Naruto however resorts to grandiose expense of chakra. The gap has NOT been closed between them. And the only reason he deemed it necessary to go back to CS is because he simply didn't have the chakra to waste on a stalemate jutsu. He needed to hit a decisive blow.

The fact that Sasuke's powerups are dependent on his own control isn't half as bad as having a sentient being deciding to save you. Kurama has to actively acknowledge that Naruto is dead meat without him, and then save him. Sasuke however, with the CS, could activate it at any moment he wanted to. He just had to choose to do so. And the Sharingan's evolution in battle has allowed him to win 1 fight alone, and that was against Bee. And even then, it was more like surviving than winning.

There's never been a moment where Sasuke's victory was determined by how quickly a new boost of power can manifest itself. Not like with Naruto.

I think you should just read what you just wrote. You admit that Sasuke needed his CS to take down Naruto, you state it explicitly:

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And the only reason he deemed it necessary to go back to CS is because he simply didn't have the chakra to waste on a stalemate jutsu. He needed to hit a decisive blow.

Your statements lays it out, if he hadn't utilised his CS he would not have been able to take down Naruto, and he would've exhausted his chakra, which would've undoubtedly resulted in a loss for him.

As for your second paragraph, this discussion, the one that as far as I know most of us are involved in, is whether the abilities between these two are foreshadowed or foreseeable. So you're a bit off topic. But for the sake of argument, Sasuke's powers aren't dependent on is control, he didn't control the evolution of his Sharingan. And the evolution of Sasuke's Sharingan allowed him to compete with Naruto in their battle at VotE, for the record. Sasuke also needed a boost to fight the Sound Genin, and he wasn't particularly in control of his CS at the time.

Re: Was things really necessary?

Your statements lays it out, if he hadn't utilised his CS he would not have been able to take down Naruto, and he would've exhausted his chakra, which would've undoubtedly resulted in a loss for him.

Not undoubtedly. It simply would've meant he would need to rely on different means rather than full on overwhelming power. Chidori had the strength to kill Naruto, but not if it can't get past the Rasengan. So he turned the CS on to soften him up for the final blow. Which, he didn't have to do as up until that point he was kicking Naruto around just fine, sans Sharingan. He could've just kept it active and pummeled Naruto until he couldn't move but, whatever. Seriously though, how often do fights end with two ninja clashing with their strongest jutsu? Gai vs. Kisame... and that's about it. Naruto vs. Pein ended with bait and switch. Sasuke vs. Danzou ended with him tricking him into thinking he had the advantage. Sasuke vs. Deidara came down to forcing the enemy to lose composure and kill himself. Simply saying "Naruto would undoubtedly win because his Rasengan is stronger than Sasuke's Chidori, and he can use it more times" doesn't work.

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As for your second paragraph, this discussion, the one that as far as I know most of us are involved in, is whether the abilities between these two are foreshadowed or foreseeable. So you're a bit off topic. But for the sake of argument, Sasuke's powers aren't dependent on is control, he didn't control the evolution of his Sharingan. And the evolution of Sasuke's Sharingan allowed him to compete with Naruto in their battle at VotE, for the record. Sasuke also needed a boost to fight the Sound Genin, and he wasn't particularly in control of his CS at the time.

I was under the impression the argument was "Which ninja was more reliant on their deus ex powers? Naruto or Sasuke?" Which ofcourse, even knowing that it's not, it's no more offtopic than your "Naruto trains harder than Sasuke" rant, considering the initial post made by the thread creator. Since no one else seems to care, I'm in no real hurry to get back on topic.

As for the VOTE fight, Sasuke's Sharingan didn't power up until Naruto powered up. And that was after he stopped using CS1 (the whole kyuubi Naruto thrashing under water was used against a CS-less Sasuke). Just like my initial post in this thread, the Sharingan only powers up in response to other overpowered ninja in the manga. And even then the resulting power up is never gamebreaking, except in the case of Sasuke vs. Bee.

But didn't we see that Naruto was capable of doing the training while traveling and gathering intel? Thus my assumption of Jiraiya not seriously meaning it at first.

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood

Rasen Shuriken is kinda like a giant Wind Rasengan

Had it been mention they were going for multiple new techniques, or a ranged technique, or a technique that in addition to being a combination also could do molecular damage...

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood

It still wasn't enough, considering Sasuke showed to be able to turn it off pretty easily.
That cloak depended only on Kyuubi's willingness to help Naruto, and it was a minimal fraction of its own power as well

The Sharingan can control the complete Kyuubi, so there never would have been enough.

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood

I meant the whole Uzumaki-Senju connection, since they both descends from Rikudou Sennin

Still falls under the original answer. Makes little sense a member of a branch clan would have a deeper connection then any members from the two main clans. Only works if the Rikudou Sennin turns out to have originally been an Uzumaki or something.

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood

Originally Posted by Impossibility

I find your comment a bit amusing, considering that even you've admitted to some of Sasuke's random power ups and new abilities. And that by your own reasoning the only abilities not foreshadowed are those that Naruto gained from the Kyuubi after he mastered his chakra. You've admitted more unforeseen abilities on Sasuke's part than those you've put forth for Naruto.

I admitted those long before this discussion began, though I'm not seeing your math. Sasuke had CS1 and his hawk, Naruto had Sage Mode, befriending the Kyuubi, hatred sensory, spiritual aid from his parents, the Mokuton issue, clones transferring info, and destiny with the Bijuus. That's two vs seven.

Originally Posted by Impossibility

And your second comment has to be some sort of joke. Because I think it is clear to anyone who's read the fights between Sasuke and his opponents in Part II of the manga knows that he relied on CS2 to stay alive and then on Itachi's eyes. Explain how he would've survived A, or Danzo, or Kabuto without the MS. The implication that he would've held his own against them without his MS is just ridiculous.

A joke? Sasuke only used CS2 twice and neither times was at a point where his life was in danger. And as mentioned, MS doesn't grant a physical enhancement. Sasuke was already physically capable of holding his own against later opponents without MS, which he actually showed in said battles. If we weren't talking about physical enhancements but individual techniques, then perhaps you could make an argument, but via the upgrades themselves Sasuke has never relied upon them for a win, much less as a life saver. Their incomparable to sage Mode and the cloak, which did grant Naruto the physical abilities required to actually fight.

Re: Was things really necessary?

Originally Posted by ninjabot

Not undoubtedly. It simply would've meant he would need to rely on different means rather than full on overwhelming power. Chidori had the strength to kill Naruto, but not if it can't get past the Rasengan. So he turned the CS on to soften him up for the final blow. Which, he didn't have to do as up until that point he was kicking Naruto around just fine, sans Sharingan. He could've just kept it active and pummeled Naruto until he couldn't move but, whatever. Seriously though, how often do fights end with two ninja clashing with their strongest jutsu? Gai vs. Kisame... and that's about it. Naruto vs. Pein ended with bait and switch. Sasuke vs. Danzou ended with him tricking him into thinking he had the advantage. Sasuke vs. Deidara came down to forcing the enemy to lose composure and kill himself. Simply saying "Naruto would undoubtedly win because his Rasengan is stronger than Sasuke's Chidori, and he can use it more times" doesn't work.

I was under the impression the argument was "Which ninja was more reliant on their deus ex powers? Naruto or Sasuke?" Which ofcourse, even knowing that it's not, it's no more offtopic than your "Naruto trains harder than Sasuke" rant, considering the initial post made by the thread creator. Since no one else seems to care, I'm in no real hurry to get back on topic.

As for the VOTE fight, Sasuke's Sharingan didn't power up until Naruto powered up. And that was after he stopped using CS1 (the whole kyuubi Naruto thrashing under water was used against a CS-less Sasuke). Just like my initial post in this thread, the Sharingan only powers up in response to other overpowered ninja in the manga. And even then the resulting power up is never gamebreaking, except in the case of Sasuke vs. Bee.

I never stated that Naruto would win simply because of his stronger Rasengan, I simply pointed out that Sasuke, by his own admission and yours, felt that it was necessary to utilise his CS to overcome Naruto.

And if an ability is spoken of, and trained extensively, that would be an indication that it is not a deus ex power. So my rant, as you call it, was relevant to the discussion at hand. And the argument that Sasuke only powers up in response to other overpowered ninja is hilarious, what do you consider an overpowered ninja? One could say anyone that needs to gain power to defeat a foe is fighting an overpowered ninja. And Naruto's Kyyubi chakra only came out against formidable foes, some of the same foes that Sasuke fought, and lost to. So I'm not sure what that statement is supposed to mean. And just because Sasuke loses after he gets a power up, doesn't change that he got it. And as I've already shown, he also needed his CS against the Sound Genin. And for your argument that Sasuke's power up of his Sharingan only came after Naruto powered up, I'm just going to add that Naruto powered up only after Sasuke had done the same with his CS.

Originally Posted by Rikudou King

I admitted those long before this discussion began, though I'm not seeing your math. Sasuke had CS1 and his hawk, Naruto had Sage Mode, befriending the Kyuubi, hatred sensory, spiritual aid from his parents, the Mokuton issue, clones transferring info, and destiny with the Bijuus. That's two vs seven.

A joke? Sasuke only used CS2 twice and neither times was at a point where his life was in danger. And as mentioned, MS doesn't grant a physical enhancement. Sasuke was already physically capable of holding his own against later opponents without MS, which he actually showed in said battles. If we weren't talking about physical enhancements but individual techniques, then perhaps you could make an argument, but via the upgrades themselves Sasuke has never relied upon them for a win, much less as a life saver. Their incomparable to sage Mode and the cloak, which did grant Naruto the physical abilities required to actually fight.

Ok, I have a bit of a problem with your list. Firstly, befriending the Kyuubi, spiritual aid from parents, and destiny with bijuus aren't abilities. They were events. Clones transferring info is a function of a technique, a benefit anyone capable of using the technique has access to. I'm not a fan of the abilities he got from the Kyuubi, but it was not surprising that he got new abilities. And considering that you say that Kakashi or Itachi's use of a tech is sufficient foreshadowing for Sasuke's use of the technique, I'm going to assume that SM qualifies under your standards considering the whole summoning contract thing and Jiraiya being Naruto's master.

As for Sasuke never using C2 in life-threatening situations, here is one (three pages would suffice). CS2 is somewhat significant in other parts of this battle. And why the focus purely on physical enhancement? The MS offered him multiple abilities that allowed him to compete. And how can you argue that Sasuke has not relied on his MS for survival. A would've ended him if it were not for Susanoo. The same could be said for his battle against Kabuto or Danzo, he'd be dead without his MS abilities.

Re: Was things really necessary?

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood

Naruto lost control in more than one occasion, so yes, it had a price, considering also it harmed his own body

There was no price, because Naruto was never hurt in any way after. Yeah, he felt the effects of Kyuubi's chakra despite Sakura healing him, but not to the point that he couldn't move. Despite being exhausted, he still ran to see Sasuke, still tried to jump when Sasuke held him, and he still tried to fight Orochimaru. Even against Pain, the only one who was affected was Pain, Naruto was saved by his dad and received no harmful effect afterwards, he was still fighting without a problem. The only time he came close to paying a price was when he went berserk against Jiraiya and nearly killed him. Otherwise Naruto's Uzumaki trait negated his own lifespan shortening.

Sasuke was nearly blind after his fight with Danzou. look at how Sakura nearly got the drop on him, or how Kakashi dominated the fight until Sasuke brought out Susano'o. The Kyuubi chakra hurt Naruto, sure, but it didn't cause him to nearly die.

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And how could he finetune his control without training ?
Just like how Sasuke needed in-battle experience to awaken Susano'o.

He didn't. He just needed training to avoid going berserk, otherwise Naruto was able to use the chakra well enough to increase his speed, strength, chakra, and to heal. Unless you're talking about Naruto training to finetune his control after stealing Kyuubi's chakra.

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As for the Bijuudama, he did train for it, he just couldn't use it effectively until turning into Bijuu Mode.
Also when Naruto won "without a problem" ? Against the Bijuus? That was him and Kyuubi together with Hachibi and Bee.
Perfect Jinchuurikis are two people in one, you can't say Naruto won alone, just like you can't say Bee won alone against Kisame

Somethin he was able to do on his first try without a problem, strong enough to take on at least three bijuu bomb by itself.

After going Kyuubi against Pain, Naruto had an easier time winning. Same against Haku, to a degree Gaara, Kakuzu, and Neji. Sasuke, despite gaining Mangekyo, had a hard time against Bee and was nearly killed twice, fought against a sick Itachi who didn't go all out, and had to be saved at the kage summit after a difficult fight.

At best, you can argue that the amount of difficult fights Naruto's had after his power-ups were almost as much as Sasuke's. But it's pretty much clear that Sasuke's never had the clear advantage in all his fights despite new powers, like Sharingan, chidori, Cursed Seal, etc.

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What I meant is that life-death situations are pretty common in the ninja work, so that requirement isn't all that great imo.

For? Kinda forgot what this was in reply to. <_<

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The blindness was real, just like Kyuubi's poisonous chakra was real, just like Cursed Seal's danger was real, just like Sage Mode risks were real, point is all of them never, and I mean never costed Sasuke or Naruto fights, they were used as plot devices.

Kyuubi's poisonous chakra was countered by Naruto's chakra, and Uzumaki trait of longevity and chakra strength. It didn't affect Naruto in fights, but after fights when he wasn't in danger. The blindness affected Sasuke and Itachi during fights to the point that they were or could have been in trouble (Sasuke's string demon windmill against Itachi and Sakura sneaking up on Sasuke). At best, Kyuubi's poisonous chakra affected the others that were hit with it, liek Sakura.

Sage Mode's real risks came when Naruto was training. Even then, he still had Pa to whack the crap out of him, so that's one risk gone. Cursed Seal had a high chance of killing Sasuke, and it suppressed his chakra that Sasuke couldn't use his Sharingan freely. But yeah, plot reasons introduced these risks, and plot reasons took it away. Neither were in any danger, although Sasuke was still in more danger due to blindness.

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Did Sasuke lost against Danzou? Or Naruto lost against Pein? No to both, despite Sasuke nearing blindness with Susano'o spammage and Naruto transforming into the 8 tail vesion

Sasuke was saved by Karin, while Naruto was saved by Kyuubi, Hinata, and Minato.

Both won because of their brain.

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Its now him wanting to kill Kyuubi, is him being able to deal massive damage to Kyuubi and also having the capacities to seriously harm him on his own, a feat very few character can claim for themselves.

And Kyuubi "dominated" not because of attacks or skills, but because, when Naruto stole his chakra, he let his hate fill Naruto. Up until that point, Naruto was the one "dominating".
And yes, its worse since Kyuubi is way stronger than Itachi ( expecially a sick, near-blind one ) and doesn't have problems in killing the enemy.

I highly doubt he could have killed Kyuubi even if he wanted to, considering the Kyuubi took FRS like it messed up its fur. But that's true, and another reason why Naruto would have been in trouble was because his mind didn't follow physics. If I recall, Hachibi blocked the bijuu bomb Kyuubi puked at Naruto while he was floating in the air.

Yeah, but Naruto still had help from his mom, twice. That's one of the reasons why Kyuubi didn't win. And while Kyuubi was stronger, Naruto still had more help than Sasuke did - Hachibi and Kushina, to name two. Yamato was also there to stop the Kyuubi from takin over or going wild. Itachi still used more power than people think against Sasuke. Sasuke was fighting his own, and was still so challenged that he ran out of chakra and couldn't do anything to Itachi even a minute before his death.

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Eh?

Considering Mizuki didn't know what was in the scroll, it would've been impossible for him to know, and Naruto did read to himself the first jutsu on the scroll, which was Kage Bushin

Sasuke took about a month to be able to manipulate his nature. Most likely less than that. It took Naruto about a week or two to manipulate his nature. If Sasuke and Naruto were to practice using a high-scaled jutsu, Naruto can just use kage bunshin to speed up the training, and thanks to Kyuubi's chakra, he can last a lot longer than Sasuke.

It still wasn't foreshadowing because we knew Naruto was gonna master that. Foreshadowing would be more like Naruto being on top of a toad, Sasuke near a snake, adn Sakura with a slug on the cover of a Naruto chapter.

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Because it was where Kakashi couldn't help Naruto anymore:
grasped nature manipulation and how to fuse it with the Rasengan, it was Naruto's turn to come up with his new jutsu, developing it even further.

Also see here, Naruto almost completed the jutsu that would let him take Sasuke back.
Which was the objective of the whole training. If Fuuton Rasengan was enough, he would've stopped

No, fuuton: rasengan was the completed version. Kakashi himself says Minato meant to add his nature to the rasengan, which is what Naruto did with fuuton: rasengan. Naruto just took it further with FRS.

Funnily enough, that same jutsu would destroy Sasuke, so unless Naruto wanted to take Sasuke's corpse back, it'd have been useless against Sasuke himself. Not only that, but it'd have destroyed Naruto's arm too.

Or, Naruto himself wanted to develop it further because he had a random idea.

Originally Posted by ninjabot

I was under the impression the argument was "Which ninja was more reliant on their deus ex powers? Naruto or Sasuke?" Which ofcourse, even knowing that it's not, it's no more offtopic than your "Naruto trains harder than Sasuke" rant, considering the initial post made by the thread creator. Since no one else seems to care, I'm in no real hurry to get back on topic.

The actual topic, for everyone's sake, is whether Sharingan or MS's power like Susano'o were necessary. Admittedly, that's all I remember. <_<

Originally Posted by Rikudou King

A joke? Sasuke only used CS2 twice and neither times was at a point where his life was in danger. And as mentioned, MS doesn't grant a physical enhancement. Sasuke was already physically capable of holding his own against later opponents without MS, which he actually showed in said battles. If we weren't talking about physical enhancements but individual techniques, then perhaps you could make an argument, but via the upgrades themselves Sasuke has never relied upon them for a win, much less as a life saver. Their incomparable to sage Mode and the cloak, which did grant Naruto the physical abilities required to actually fight.

Actually, Sasuke would have lost to Raikage without Mangekyo or even Sharingan, considering Raikage was too fast, and would have likely done serious damage to Sasuke with liger bomb. Even the raiton chop got through Susano'o and hit Sasuke - imagine the damage it could cause to unprotected Sasuke or Naruto.

Originally Posted by Impossibility

Ok, I have a bit of a problem with your list. Firstly, befriending the Kyuubi, spiritual aid from parents, and destiny with bijuus aren't abilities. They were events. Clones transferring info is a function of a technique, a benefit anyone capable of using the technique has access to. I'm not a fan of the abilities he got from the Kyuubi, but it was not surprising that he got new abilities. And considering that you say that Kakashi or Itachi's use of a tech is sufficient foreshadowing for Sasuke's use of the technique, I'm going to assume that SM qualifies under your standards considering the whole summoning contract thing and Jiraiya being Naruto's master.

They are events that allowed Naruto to get all the free powerups and ass-saving he needed, though. If Kyuubi didn't be chumbuddies with naruto, Naruto'd have likely died from Kyuubi taking his chakra. if Minato didn't help Naruto, then the Kyuubi would have broken free and likely killed Naruto. If Kushina didn't help, Kyuubi would have taken over Naruto, and possibly kill him (dunno if Yamato could have stopped the Kyuubi).

Re: Was things really necessary?

Originally Posted by Impossibility

Ok, I have a bit of a problem with your list. Firstly, befriending the Kyuubi, spiritual aid from parents, and destiny with bijuus aren't abilities. They were events. Clones transferring info is a function of a technique, a benefit anyone capable of using the technique has access to. I'm not a fan of the abilities he got from the Kyuubi, but it was not surprising that he got new abilities. And considering that you say that Kakashi or Itachi's use of a tech is sufficient foreshadowing for Sasuke's use of the technique, I'm going to assume that SM qualifies under your standards considering the whole summoning contract thing and Jiraiya being Naruto's master.

Those were abilities in this regard. The Kyuubi magically coming to his side gave him the ability to use his cloak form without any of the drawbacks that were mentioned several times beforehand. His parents spirits being within him saved him from going complete Kyuubi during the Pain Invasion and gave him the win against the Kyuubi later on during his battle for chakra. The destiny with the Bijuus allowed him to magically be granted chakra by them along with future conclusion. The clones transfer ability was introduced to give Naruto an easy way to train, and never mentioned or used by anyone else before or after. And gaining new abilities that not hinted at beforehand, yet magically prove to be vital upon manifestation is the entire point of this argument.

Not the same. Three tomoe, MS, and EMS all had the regular Sharingan as a prerequisite and we saw Sasuke being set upon the path to gain them. The toads didn't automatically equal Sage Mode and Jiraiya being Naruto's master had nothing to do with him learning it.

Originally Posted by Impossibility

for Sasuke never using C2 in life-threatening situations, here is one (three pages would suffice). CS2 is somewhat significant in other parts of this battle. And why the focus purely on physical enhancement? The MS offered him multiple abilities that allowed him to compete. And how can you argue that Sasuke has not relied on his MS for survival. A would've ended him if it were not for Susanoo. The same could be said for his battle against Kabuto or Danzo, he'd be dead without his MS abilities.

Yet that doesn't change my argument, since Sasuke had already showed he didn't need CS2 to counter Deidara's bombs. The techniques of MS can and have been shown counterable, and such has been done in the various battles. Sasuke has never solely relied upon MS to fight against anyone. He fought against the likes of Kirabi, Ee, Danzo, and Kabuto with his regular techniques just as much, if not more, then his MS techniques.

The "focus" on physical enhancements is because of the comparison with Naruto's cloak and Sage Mode, both modes that granted him physical enhancements in order to actually compete against the current level opponents. That is what was originally argued, about how one "wouldn't have had a chance to compete". Sasuke was shown fully capable of fighting the current level of opponents without CS or MS.

Originally Posted by M3J

Actually, Sasuke would have lost to Raikage without Mangekyo or even Sharingan, considering Raikage was too fast, and would have likely done serious damage to Sasuke with liger bomb. Even the raiton chop got through Susano'o and hit Sasuke - imagine the damage it could cause to unprotected Sasuke or Naruto.

The discussion was over gaining abilities to allow them to compete against said opponents in the first place. Sasuke didn't need MS to fight against Ee, he showed he was capable of doing just that well before he employed MS.

Re: Was things really necessary?

There wasn't that great a difference between their speeds though. Outside shunshin, Sasuke was able to keep up, so one would think if he had used shunshin too, the situation would have been the same. Plus he did have Chidori Current, which was like his own weak version of Shinra Tensei.

Re: Was things really necessary?

Shunshin would have helped him, but in close quarters, Sasuke wouldn't have a way to defend himself from liger bomb or even a raiton chop if it came out of nowhere. I don't think chidori current would work on Raikage, and even if it did, he could just shrug it off like he did with chidori and cutting his hand off.

Re: Was things really necessary?

Well, presuming he got stuck as he did in the actual series. Sasuke didn't end up in trouble with close range til he got his hand stuck in Ee's cloak, which is pretty specific circumstances. The paralyzing effect wouldn't have worked, but Chidori Current was also shown capable of blasting an opponent backward, which shouldn't have not worked.

Re: Was things really necessary?

Originally Posted by Rikudou King

Those were abilities in this regard. The Kyuubi magically coming to his side gave him the ability to use his cloak form without any of the drawbacks that were mentioned several times beforehand. His parents spirits being within him saved him from going complete Kyuubi during the Pain Invasion and gave him the win against the Kyuubi later on during his battle for chakra. The destiny with the Bijuus allowed him to magically be granted chakra by them along with future conclusion. The clones transfer ability was introduced to give Naruto an easy way to train, and never mentioned or used by anyone else before or after. And gaining new abilities that not hinted at beforehand, yet magically prove to be vital upon manifestation is the entire point of this argument.

Not the same. Three tomoe, MS, and EMS all had the regular Sharingan as a prerequisite and we saw Sasuke being set upon the path to gain them. The toads didn't automatically equal Sage Mode and Jiraiya being Naruto's master had nothing to do with him learning it.

Yet that doesn't change my argument, since Sasuke had already showed he didn't need CS2 to counter Deidara's bombs. The techniques of MS can and have been shown counterable, and such has been done in the various battles. Sasuke has never solely relied upon MS to fight against anyone. He fought against the likes of Kirabi, Ee, Danzo, and Kabuto with his regular techniques just as much, if not more, then his MS techniques.

The "focus" on physical enhancements is because of the comparison with Naruto's cloak and Sage Mode, both modes that granted him physical enhancements in order to actually compete against the current level opponents. That is what was originally argued, about how one "wouldn't have had a chance to compete". Sasuke was shown fully capable of fighting the current level of opponents without CS or MS.

The discussion was over gaining abilities to allow them to compete against said opponents in the first place. Sasuke didn't need MS to fight against Ee, he showed he was capable of doing just that well before he employed MS.

If you include outside saves, or random events, that lead to increased ability or restoration then you'd include Itachi handing his eyes over to Sasuke, Zetsu's spore technique providing Sasuke chakra, Karin restoring Sasuke with her heal bite. And your constant argument that Sasuke was known to be on the road to MS is not the case. Prior to his battle to Itachi, we had no idea of the sacrifice that Itachi would make, and the requirement for the attainment of the MS was believed to have been the death of the Naruto, the title character of the manga. Neither of these events were foreshadowed to occur.

The toads didn't automatically equal SM, but Naruto's summoning contract with the toads and Jiraiya's use of the ability strongly suggested that Naruto might gain its use.

What are you arguing? It was clear that Sasuke's CS2 was integral in surviving his fight with Deidara. And the fact that some MS moves are counterable is irrelevant, as is the fact that Sasuke doesn't rely entirely on MS during his battles. And he fought without the use of MS against the individuals you've listed until he realised that he would die if he didn't utilise the techniques.

And there is no reason to point solely to physical enhancements. It is not as though physical stats such as speed, and strength, are the only factors that determine the outcome of the battle. What was originally argued was that Sasuke would not have been able to compete against some of the individuals he fought without his new abilities, and it clear by the number of times he has had to resort to these techniques to survive that that is the case.

Re: Was things really necessary?

If you can point to the example for Sage Mode or any of the other abilities discussed...

I already explained how Sage Mode wasn't pulled out on the fly, just like everything else bar Bijuu Mode and Kuchiyose.
Even the throwable FRS was shown

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But didn't we see that Naruto was capable of doing the training while traveling and gathering intel? Thus my assumption of Jiraiya not seriously meaning it at first.

We can argue that he could take it more easy, but without a doubt he intended to teach Naruto the Rasengan in that journey

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Had it been mention they were going for multiple new techniques, or a ranged technique, or a technique that in addition to being a combination also could do molecular damage...

They didn't theorize Rasen Shuriken, it was Naruto doing all the work.
If you notice, Kakashi didn't have the slightest idea on what Naruto was doing, when he used FRS the first time. The whole training was for Naruto to develop his own jutsu

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The Sharingan can control the complete Kyuubi, so there never would have been enough.

If the Kyuubi is trapped, inside a Jinchuuriki it doesn't, as we saw with Madara

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Still falls under the original answer. Makes little sense a member of a branch clan would have a deeper connection then any members from the two main clans. Only works if the Rikudou Sennin turns out to have originally been an Uzumaki or something.

This, we don't know, so its useless to make assumptions

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Originally Posted by M3J

There was no price, because Naruto was never hurt in any way after. Yeah, he felt the effects of Kyuubi's chakra despite Sakura healing him, but not to the point that he couldn't move. Despite being exhausted, he still ran to see Sasuke, still tried to jump when Sasuke held him, and he still tried to fight Orochimaru. Even against Pain, the only one who was affected was Pain, Naruto was saved by his dad and received no harmful effect afterwards, he was still fighting without a problem. The only time he came close to paying a price was when he went berserk against Jiraiya and nearly killed him. Otherwise Naruto's Uzumaki trait negated his own lifespan shortening.

Sasuke was nearly blind after his fight with Danzou. look at how Sakura nearly got the drop on him, or how Kakashi dominated the fight until Sasuke brought out Susano'o. The Kyuubi chakra hurt Naruto, sure, but it didn't cause him to nearly die.

Did Sasuke die?
Did he suffer any crippling injuries for being blind? No he didn't, when it mattered most he was able to come out on top. And Naruto being an Uzumaki doesn't mean his life didn't shorten.
And in Oro's lair we saw how wounded Naruto was, he couldn't run without feeling tired, Orochimaru himself noted he was out of breath, and had to rest a lot with Sai

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He didn't. He just needed training to avoid going berserk, otherwise Naruto was able to use the chakra well enough to increase his speed, strength, chakra, and to heal. Unless you're talking about Naruto training to finetune his control after stealing Kyuubi's chakra.

That's what I'm talking about

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Somethin he was able to do on his first try without a problem, strong enough to take on at least three bijuu bomb by itself.

After going Kyuubi against Pain, Naruto had an easier time winning. Same against Haku, to a degree Gaara, Kakuzu, and Neji. Sasuke, despite gaining Mangekyo, had a hard time against Bee and was nearly killed twice, fought against a sick Itachi who didn't go all out, and had to be saved at the kage summit after a difficult fight.

At best, you can argue that the amount of difficult fights Naruto's had after his power-ups were almost as much as Sasuke's. But it's pretty much clear that Sasuke's never had the clear advantage in all his fights despite new powers, like Sharingan, chidori, Cursed Seal, etc.

How, if Pein was still at full power and Naruto was actually tired? It saved him from Chibaku Tensei, but for the rest Pein was at full power. And he did collapse afterwards.

The only "easy" win I can think of Naruto pulled off was against Third Raikage.
The others were pretty close

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For? Kinda forgot what this was in reply to. <_<

The requirement to unlock a Sharingan

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Sasuke was saved by Karin, while Naruto was saved by Kyuubi, Hinata, and Minato.

Both won because of their brain

And Suigetsu, and Juugo, and Obito

So yeah, both won but both got their ass saved by others

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I highly doubt he could have killed Kyuubi even if he wanted to, considering the Kyuubi took FRS like it messed up its fur. But that's true, and another reason why Naruto would have been in trouble was because his mind didn't follow physics. If I recall, Hachibi blocked the bijuu bomb Kyuubi puked at Naruto while he was floating in the air.

Yeah, but Naruto still had help from his mom, twice. That's one of the reasons why Kyuubi didn't win. And while Kyuubi was stronger, Naruto still had more help than Sasuke did - Hachibi and Kushina, to name two. Yamato was also there to stop the Kyuubi from takin over or going wild. Itachi still used more power than people think against Sasuke. Sasuke was fighting his own, and was still so challenged that he ran out of chakra and couldn't do anything to Itachi even a minute before his death.

Itachi could've destroyed Sasuke if he wasn't holding back by plot, come on, we saw against Kabuto what sort of beast an healty, non-blind Itachi can be.
Sasuke was impressive, no one's doubting that, but he really wasn't up to Itachi's league

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Sasuke took about a month to be able to manipulate his nature. Most likely less than that. It took Naruto about a week or two to manipulate his nature. If Sasuke and Naruto were to practice using a high-scaled jutsu, Naruto can just use kage bunshin to speed up the training, and thanks to Kyuubi's chakra, he can last a lot longer than Sasuke.

Actually the whole KB thing is his own, the only thing Kyuubi does is limiting the fatigue on his brain derived from dispelling 1000 clones at once.
If Naruto would do it smartly, like 1 clone at a time, I doubt he would need Kyuubi's help.

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It still wasn't foreshadowing because we knew Naruto was gonna master that. Foreshadowing would be more like Naruto being on top of a toad, Sasuke near a snake, adn Sakura with a slug on the cover of a Naruto chapter.

First chapter, like I told Rikudou King is pretty difficult to foreshadow something when not even a chapter went down

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No, fuuton: rasengan was the completed version. Kakashi himself says Minato meant to add his nature to the rasengan, which is what Naruto did with fuuton: rasengan. Naruto just took it further with FRS.

Funnily enough, that same jutsu would destroy Sasuke, so unless Naruto wanted to take Sasuke's corpse back, it'd have been useless against Sasuke himself. Not only that, but it'd have destroyed Naruto's arm too.

Or, Naruto himself wanted to develop it further because he had a random idea.

I really never understood that as well, I mean if Fuuton Rasengan and Chidori would collide, Sasuke's arm would be blown away.
Naruto's method of bringing Sasuke back always seemed... You know, retarded.
Bringing Sasuke back in a casket isn't really the best method