The Polish PM has stunned European leaders today with an astonishing attack on Germany for starting the Second World War.

In a spectacularly undiplomatic outburst, he said his country was losing out in today's European Union as a direct result of the millions of deaths that followed its invasion by Germany in 1939.

"We are only demanding one thing - that we get back what was taken from us," said Jaroslaw Kaczynski at the opening of the EU summit in Brussels, chaired by German chancellor Angela Merkel.

"If Poland had not had to live through the years of 1939-45, Poland would be today looking at the demographics of a country of 66 million."

The issue of population is at the heart of a heated row over voting rights that could wreck Tony Blair's last EU summit.

A proposed new system of sharing out votes rewards countries such as Germany with the biggest numbers - and Poland is angrily demanding more.

Poland's population is 38 million - implying that Mr Kaczynski blames the Germans for the loss of 28 million people.

Mr Kaczynski and his twin brother Lech, Poland's president, are said to be Second World War obsessives, with an encyclopaedic knowledge of their country's sufferings under occupation.

The identical twins, whose father fought in the 1944 Warsaw uprising, have become infamous for their unrestrained comments and dislike of EU integration.

Luxembourg's premier, Jean-Claude Juncker, said they should stop living in the past. "You have to jump into the present," he told FT Deutschland.

"You will not be happy in the long run if you are always looking in the rear-view mirror."

It sets the scene for a rancorous dinner tonight when leaders of the 27 EU states need to thrash out a series of disputes to avoid a crisis.

Mr Blair, notching up his 47th EU summit, told his Cabinet in London that he was prepared to walk away from the table unless his own demands were met in full.

Before flying out, he and Gordon Brown had telephone talks with Mrs Merkel - indicating that Mr Brown is intensely involved in the negotiations.

Mr Blair came under fire for trying to water down the EU's "son of constitution" treaty. Mr Juncker a veteran federalist, fumed: "We will not stand by and see all the substance removed from the treaty."

New French president Nicolas Sarkozy said there were multiple disputes.

"We don't just have problems with Poland," he said. "We have problems with the Netherlands, the United Kingdom, a little bit with the Czech Republic. The problems are numerous."

Privately, No 10 indicated that Mr Blair wanted his demands met "100 per cent". But European Commission president Jose Manuel Barroso retorted: "All the leaders say that they want 100 per cent achievement. But in Europe you've got to be reasonable and rational.

"At the end there has to be some, let's say, agreement."

Mrs Merkel sent an 11th-hour letter pleading with the leaders to compromise, so that Europe could move on from inwardlooking disputes to pressing issues such as climate change, energy supplies and globalisation.

"The European public now expects us to put the necessary reforms of the Union in hand," she wrote. "The time has now come to set out the roadmap for the impending reform of the treaties."

The point of this is to give voting rights in the EU parliament. The parliament should reflect the current population of the EU member states, and current issues.

Germany acted very badly in World War 2, and Poland's population today might have been higher had the Nazis not killed many Poles. But they did, and today Poland is a medium sized country (population) and Germany is a large one. Germany should have more votes in the parliament to represent the Germans living in the EU today.

151
posted on 06/22/2007 1:52:42 AM PDT
by Jedi Master Pikachu
( What is your take on Acts 15:20 (abstaining from blood) about eating meat? Could you freepmail?)

The EU parliament isn't all that analogous to the House of Representatives, and the EU Commission definitely isn't all that analogous to the Senate (in its present, directly voted form), because the EU is not yet a single country, and its member states still wield powers which American states do not.

The EU parliament has relatively little power, though the constitution--and potentially this new treaty--could change that. The EU Commission makes most of the EU's rules, and the Commissioners are selected by the member states' national governments.

152
posted on 06/22/2007 1:57:14 AM PDT
by Jedi Master Pikachu
( What is your take on Acts 15:20 (abstaining from blood) about eating meat? Could you freepmail?)

The Austrian death toll from World War 1 was also very.....impressive. Especially since many of those killed were child-bearing aged men (normally considered child-bearing age), and Austria lost the Hungary part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

So should tiny Austria be given many more votes, including all of Hungary's? (rhetorical).

154
posted on 06/22/2007 2:01:38 AM PDT
by Jedi Master Pikachu
( What is your take on Acts 15:20 (abstaining from blood) about eating meat? Could you freepmail?)

You might not consider it to be so, but you are advocating reparations--just not one of the monetary sort.

You're arguing that Germans, many of whom were not involved in World War 2, should be proportionally less represented in the parliament, and Poland should be over-represented to compensate for those killed in World War 2.

So you're supporting taking from the descendants of the 'bad guys' and giving to the descendants of the 'good guys.'

155
posted on 06/22/2007 2:08:08 AM PDT
by Jedi Master Pikachu
( What is your take on Acts 15:20 (abstaining from blood) about eating meat? Could you freepmail?)

Japan basically went almost unpunished (culturally) after the war. Germany was definitely punished—to the point that many Germans today feel as though they are somehow responsible for what their ancestors did.

158
posted on 06/22/2007 2:24:20 AM PDT
by Jedi Master Pikachu
( What is your take on Acts 15:20 (abstaining from blood) about eating meat? Could you freepmail?)

How awful that a trivial thing like mass genocide is getting in the way of something important, like global warming discussions.

You notice that Germany and Russia never get any credit for all the good they did. If not for Germany and Russia, not only would there be 66 Million Poles (and numerous other Eastern Europeans) but they'd be living like Swedes or West Germans and generating megatons of CO2.

Not a very smart speech, but dude’s point was that population shouldn’t directly decide about the number of votes in the EU, not that Poland actually should get something more because of WW2 losses... unfortunately most of the media in Europe (even these “conservative”) are “pro-European” (deeper integration, Euro “Constitution” and so on) so they are twisting words of those with even only a bit different attitude to make them look like idiots.

It's something you say when somebody bases his argument on absurd hypothetical. E.g.: "I'm not lazy. If my parents had given me proper emotional support as a child, I would be a millionaire by now.". The answer would then be: "Boo-Hoo, if cowsh*t were butter, farmers would all be millionaires!".

Meaning: If you're allowed to randomly change the premises of your argument, you can claim anything, even the biggest nonsense.

Doesn’t Poland have the lowest birthrate in the EU? The leaders may be right but they also need to tell their folks the basics on increasing the population again. And here I thought the Germans might be best at avoiding the natural consequences of natural sex.

Well, Puttie Poot is not an option here, but there are other neighbors to have fun with - for instance Ukraine, Baltic states and Georgia. Potentially they could make up a strong alliance supported by the USA or even form their own Eastern European Union (EEU) within or outside the EU with uncertain results. The near future of Europe seems to be a damned interesting show!==

Seem for me it is very likely. Maybe Poland will unite GUAM countries?

Plz explain me on what base your country wants to be same influential in EU as Germany or France? Those 2 are the founders of EU after all. I think those country has the most economical and political weight too. Why they should share it with Poland?

Siberia is huge. If considered to be all of Asian Russia, it could still be larger than every other country on Earth. So arguing that since you were born in Siberia that you should have more insight on whether Poles were or weren’t deported there is a bit of a stretch.

176
posted on 06/22/2007 6:50:11 AM PDT
by Jedi Master Pikachu
( What is your take on Acts 15:20 (abstaining from blood) about eating meat? Could you freepmail?)

Japan basically went almost unpunished (culturally) after the war. Germany was definitely punishedto the point that many Germans today feel as though they are somehow responsible for what their ancestors did.

Germany (both of them) certainly rearmed quicker than Japan did.

One reason Japan has not had the pressure put upon it by Western liberals that Germany has is that it is a "non-Western" culture and thus, according to multiculturalism, is beyond critique by "Western" standards. Notice that even though World War II was "the good war," our war against Japan is now considered "bad."

I have long maintained that the contemporary Left has much more in common with WWII-era Japan than with the USSR. I don't think the ideology of WWII-era Japan has been studied to the extent that European fascism has, and I believe it would pay us to learn more about it.

You’re trying to be funny ? So how the hell in the Asian part of the Soviet Union in 41/42 the whole army was created, which later went to Persia and fought in Italy in 44 ? And next one more army, which fought on the Soviet side ?

I wish you would read your own posts. I have a question: How can you be against a deranged madman--like Hitler? You sound so much like him. I thought most of you had died off in the last century. Nowadays most people associate such venomous words as yours with Islamic fascist idiots. There's no doubt that if everyone were to adopt your attitude, we would be living in a world of constant and perpetual wars. Are you concealing some long repressed guilt about living through WWII and doing nothing to stop the killing. Obviously, there is only one solution to your problem: self-termination with extreme prejudice. Ironic, eh?

So you're supporting taking from the descendants of the 'bad guys' and giving to the descendants of the 'good guys.'

Nope, I'm saying Germany shouldn't benefit, long story short, just go back to the drawing board and start over again. I'm NOT saying penalize Germany, just do not reward them, so, go back and start from scratch.

the debate is not about germany and wether it is profiting... well it used to be not about it.

in fact noone in europe had a problem with a weighting of votes related to the number of inhabitants - if it wasn’t for that K. that was only voted for by a small minority of poles (only 40% showed up for the elections).

As K realized that he’s gonna be one very isolated show stopper he pulled the NAZI grenade and vanished in the smokes.

As I said before in the end he will do what he’s supposed to do until a grown up reigns in poland - shut up - and england will take the role of blocking europe.

199
posted on 06/22/2007 8:00:13 AM PDT
by Rummenigge
(there's people willing to blow out the light because it casts a shadow)

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