Well if you want to take a look at Hock's material first hand, and not thru the keyboard warrior association, just look up the seminar schedule. You can probably find a location within striking distance from him at least 1 or 2 times a year...

Come see for yourself, and don't judge by a video or a troll poll..

In fact he will be teaching in San Antonio TX, this weekend and if you want to discuss the program I will be glad to help you out.

I have one of his videos (training mission 1), it's about 50/50 ok stuff and crap.

- Hock is big on "eye gouging will defeat anything"
- Anything he does on the ground is crap against anybody who knows how to grapple
- Most of the knife defense stuff I have seen from him is one step techniques (i.e attacker throws on attack and "waits" there).
- The stick stuff seems good

I've seen some of his other stuff as well, and my 50/50 opinion still seems to stand up. I would not trust any knife defense or ground work from Hock since what I've seen is shady at best.

I am going to be neutral in this thread but I just want to point out the irony of what I have been reading. Forgive me but I am going to use the Dog Brothers/Suarez and Hoch as my comparisons. (As many of you know, I just love to play the devils advocate.)

So, recently, there have been criticisms of the Dog Brothers made on this website because the Dog Brothers/Suarez are "more than ten years behind the curve in regards to the interface of guns, knives and empty hands". This may be semi-true as the "Die Less Often" DVD and seminars are of recent release. (Of course these techniques have been in the works for years longer, but who's going to nitpick). Admittedly they were never focused upon it as heavily as they are now. They also continue to evolve and there will soon be another big seminar and a new DVD. Nothing wrong with evolving right?

Conversely, Hoch has been working in the interface of guns, knives and empty hands for over ten years and is now starting to showcase more grappling. (Of course he too has been working on these techniques a number of years actually, but who's going to nitpick). Also conversely we know the Dog Brothers have been grappling for over ten years working with the Machado's who together have put out a couple DVD's (back in the 90's) regarding it and who together have come up with a whole new game regarding fighting with weapons on the ground.

So what we have here is two different groups who are evolving simultaneously. The Dog Brothers are arguably playing catch up on the "interface" and Hoch is arguably playing catch up on the "grappling". Is Hoch behind the curve in regards to solid grappling technique? You betcha. Are the Dog Brothers/Suarez in regards to the interface? You betcha. Yet they are both continuing to evolve which is a good thing. However, for one pot to call the other pot black would be bullshit, wouldn't it? Wait a minute... I don't think they are. Rather, it just seems to be happening on this website by people who are not associated with either party. In fact, truth be told, Hoch has this to say regarding the other:

Originally Posted by Hoch (taken from his forum)

...other instructors adding stick, knife and gun to their programs?

Well I think through time, these guys evolve and mature into realizing they need to be more reality-rounded out if they want to play in that realm, they gotta' do "hand, stick, knife and gun."

Being in my mid-50s, this haunted my martial arts training for decades as a cop - knowing the disparity between the disciplines of military, police and martial arts training, and I guess it really pushed me about 11 or 12 years ago toward the hand, stick, knife, gun approach...too, and when you think about it, the Matt Thornton's and all are evolving into these same realizations, and are thereabouts the same age as me when it moved me?

The "Gabe Suarez-es" realize they needs more stick and knife and takes action
The "Marc Denny-es" need gun and takes action
The "Matt Thortons" organize a stick course
and on and on..

And in the big picture this is a very good thing. These are all good, smart guys and it is growth and that is good, as I was ever on the hunt and am still on the hunt for what I can bring back.

Hoch

One could say that Hoch maybe realizing the growing importance of grappling and is now adding more of it to his game just as the other party is with their techniques, No? (Do realize I am talking in generalities too...).

===================

Another funny thing I have seen on this website as of late. There has been made criticisms of the Dog Brothers putting out DVD's because they are apparently "gouging Americans via patriotsim and just out to make a buck". (That is the clean way of repeating what has actually been stated in much more graphic terms). Interesting indeed this thought process is as this is how certain people make their living. (those in the know also understand that it is a meager living at best).

However, on the flip side it would appear that Hoch also makes a living by selling DVD's and books. If you can accuse one of raping people of their money, shouldn't you then accuse the other? Lets do a side by side comparison shall we?

Do we have a winner? (Just Kidding).
Again, for one to call the other out would be ludicrous. But again, I don't think this is the case is it? This too seems to be happening ONLY on this site.

Just wanted to throw this little bit of fun into the works. Again, I will remain neutral in this thread as I clearly know nothing of Hoch and it is no secret where I stand. (Although I do try my very best to be a neutral person when it comes to attacking others and personal vendettas). Funny even more so because I don't claim to be religious or a righteous man as some others do.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled program! Have fun kids!

Red

PS, if you think this pertains to you... well, maybe it does?
:5blindfol

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:icon_twis .
To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence;
Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without spilling your Guinness.Sun "Fu Man JhooJits" Tzu, the Art of War & Guinness

Since these kinds of things always come down to putting your money where your mouth is I will do just that. I know for a fact there are some members in the Dallas area, If two of them are willing to go and take the upcoming knife class given by Hock at a cost of a hundred bucks a piece for the first day I will give them a money back guarantee. They go to the class, take notes, come back to the forum and present their findings and If they don't feel it was worth the money I will give them their money back within 30 days by Western Union.
Thanks, Bryan Lee

That is awesome that you are willing to do this. Were I in Dallas I would take you up in a heartbeat. In the interest of being fair. The Dog Brothers and Gabe Suarez are having a similar seminar on January 27-28, 2007 called:

"After nearly a year of experimentation and refinement, we are ready to present more.

This seminar will revisit the Kali Fence and Dog catcher as well as look at new applications such as offensive (pre-emptive) actions, and its uses in gun versus gun and gun versus knife attacks at the medium ranges. We will have a strong force on force (gun material) component to examine the Kali applications with concealed firearms.

Wouldn't it be interesting for the same people to attend both seminars as a basis of comparison? Although the distance is extreme, if you are footing the bill...

Alternately, you could have one person attend the Dallas seminar and do a write-up and another attend the Cali seminar and do a write-up. Thoughts?

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:icon_twis .
To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence;
Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without spilling your Guinness.Sun "Fu Man JhooJits" Tzu, the Art of War & Guinness

My only problem with the Dog Brothers “Die Less Often” DVD is the way they pixilated out the “magic move” in the preview. Seriously, if they think that letting people see it would somehow make them less inclined to order the DVD, then I start asking myself what exactly is one rest of it. Is the instruction itself not of value, or is it just the magic technique?

There is no magic move my friend. When I watched the harness clip by SBGi I didn't see the harness explained. Had to buy the DVD for that. When I watch the movie clip of Deja Vu they don't show the trick ending. Guess I'll have to go to the movies for that. Know what I'm sayin'?

:happy2:

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:icon_twis .
To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence;
Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without spilling your Guinness.Sun "Fu Man JhooJits" Tzu, the Art of War & Guinness

Red Elvis- excellent response. Bullshido could use more of this sort of debate.

Roninpimp and others responses about the grappling are legit though. If Hock is going to talk about sport methods setting the fighting world backwards years, he is asking for confrontation with those who know the ground.

I would go to either seminar in a heartbeat. I took a seminar with Eyal Yanilov a while back and it was good knife defense stuff. Very little material covered, but lots of good drills. One example: you and your partner are facing each other in a kneeling position with a training knife between you. Someone says go and both people try to grab it and start attacking. To me, this makes more sense than the prearranged sequences of techniques.

I would go to either seminar in a heartbeat. I took a seminar with Eyal Yanilov a while back and it was good knife defense stuff. Very little material covered, but lots of good drills. One example: you and your partner are facing each other in a kneeling position with a training knife between you. Someone says go and both people try to grab it and start attacking. To me, this makes more sense than the prearranged sequences of techniques.

I agree. Pre arranged practice is much like kata/forms/patterns in TMA's. They have their place but serve very little in the way of actually defending yourself.

There is no magic move my friend. When I watched the harness clip by SBGi I didn't see the harness explained. Had to buy the DVD for that. When I watch the movie clip of Deja Vu they don't show the trick ending. Guess I'll have to go to the movies for that. Know what I'm sayin'?

:happy2:

My point exactly, the SBG guys didn't feel a need to pixelate out anything in the ISR preview, and low and behold I still went and bough the set. The Dog Brother’s video is still on my list for an eventual purchase, but I just find the whole pivelation thing kind of stupid since I’m paying for the instruction, not the secret move.

When it comes to empty hand / knife / gun interfacing of training, while Hoch may have been one of the first, I find his material is lacking vis-à-vis some of the more recent developments in that area. He needs to come out of his bubble, look at what other instructors are doing, and update his material and training methods.

I think Hock should associate himself with a few younger people, including at least one with a strong background in grappling, to help update his material.