A Conversation With Anne Lesley Groell

grew up on the Upper West Side. She received a
B.A. in Biology from Yale University and a M.S. in
Developmental Biology from the University of
California at Irvine, specializing in limb regeneration
in salamanders.
Eventually, missing seasons, she returned to the
Upper West Side, where she still resides, to become
an editor and writer. She worked for two and a half
years at Avon Books, then moved on to Bantam, where she
is a SF/Fantasy editor for Bantam Spectra , editing such
authors as George R. R. Martin, Robin Hobb, Connie
Willis, Lynn Flewelling, Mark Anthony, Catherine Asaro,
Kay Kenyon and John Marco. In addition to being an editor, she is also
a popular fantasy author. Her
first published novel, Anvil of the Sun, was released
from Penguin/Roc in 1996; Bridge of
Valor, the sequel, in 1997; and Cauldron of Iniquity,
in 1999. The three novels follow the adventures of the
fledgling assassins, Jenifleur and Thibault, as they
strive to become full members of the legendary
Assassin's Guild. Her books are a blend of fantasy,
adventure and romance which have been highly praised by
publications such as Locus, Starlog and
Romantic Times. In addition to her vivid characters,
her stories are also known for their inventive settings and
their wonderful sense of humor.

Between editing and writing, she gets very little
sleep, and jokes that she is currently trying to work out a scam to
blurb her own authors. Anne spoke with us about how she
made the transition from biologist to author and editor,
how she created the Cloak and Dagger series, and
gives some great tips to aspiring writers hoping to get noticed
by an acquisitions editor.

maternal cries of: "Why don't you read a real book?" I cut my teeth on
Madeleine L'engle and Lloyd Alexander, graduated up to Robert A. Heinlein
and Anne McCaffrey--and, of course, Tolkien--then discovered Tanith Lee,
Katherine Kurtz and Barbara Hambly, at which point it was pretty well over
for me. I had cemented my lifelong devotion to the genre.
And it is so nice when it feeds back to you, too. I will never forget the
feeling of getting my first quote as an author from Anne McCaffrey. And of
meeting Katherine Kurtz for the first time; she grinned at me and said: "Oh,
I just read your book. I really enjoyed it." I mean, surely that was MY
line? And one of the biggest thrills of my editorial career has been
reissuing my favorite book in
the universe--Tanith Lee's The Silver Metal Lover--which I recently brought
out with absolutely the perfect cover and interior design. Tanith and I
really had a meeting of minds on this project, which was wonderful.

What prompted your switch in careers from biology to editing and writing?

Getting thrown out of graduate school?
Actually, it was more of a mutual parting of ways--I was thrown out, but I

"For myself,
I read for character more than plot. If I love the characters, they could
be hanging out reading the phone book for all I care! Well...okay, not
quite. But I do need characters I can care about."

pretty much wanted to be out by that time, and it was exceedingly obvious.
I still love biology as an intellectual pursuit--thinking about it, learning
about it, teaching it--but I hated doing the actual research. So when it
came time for me to leave, I decided: Why not try for my dream job? I had
been reading SF and Fantasy for as long as I could remember--and writing it
about equally long. So I wrote to all the SF and Fantasy publishing houses
in New York, and fortunately Avon Books had an opening. Even more
fortunately, I got the job--though the writing sample I submitted was a
lecture on sea-urchin fertilization. I am probably the only person in
publishing who actually got a job based on sea-urchin fertilization! And
when the Bantam job came open, my boss called me into his office and told me
about it, saying he would hate to lose me but knew I would be perfect. So I
applied, and I've been at Bantam ever since.

As for writing... Well, I didn't so much switch into it as finally manage
to make it work professionally. I've always been writing, for as long as I
can remember. I started with highly surrealistic poems in kindergarten,
then started writing my first novel at the age of ten. I never finished it,
but I did finish the one I wrote at seventeen. They were both dreadful!
Then, through college and graduate school, I produced two highly angst-ridden
SF novels, which I still think have a shred of promise--providing I throw
out almost everything but the basic idea! In fact, the only really good
thing about them is that they got me my agent, which is always a good first
step in getting published.

What do you enjoy most about being an editor?

Oh, that's easy! Getting paid to read. And being one of the first people
in the world to see the newest books from some of my favorite authors. Not
to mention discovering brilliant new talents. There are days I still can't
believe the scam I've put over on the world! They're actually letting me
support myself this way?

As an editor, what are your pet peeves about query letters?

Arrogance. Deliberate, cutesy cleverness. We don't care who you are,
or how brilliant your mom/spouse/neighbor thinks your writing is. All
we care is how brilliant we think your writing is--and that we can
decide for ourselves. I always say that good writing will speak for
itself. Without any frills.
Oh, yeah, and not knowing what genre I work in. It's insulting, knowing the
author has not even done the most basic research. We work our tails off
here, largely unappreciated and mostly unknown to the general public. At
least do me the credit of pretending you've heard of me!

What really catches your eye in a manuscript?

People read for different reasons--and one of the things you quickly learn
in publishing is that everything is subjective, based on the editor's
personal taste and particular mood at the time of the reading. For myself,
I read for character more than plot. If I love the characters, they could
be hanging out reading the phone book for all I care! Well...okay, not
quite. But I do need characters I can care about. Yet what I really need,
more than anything, is the inability to leave a book at work. If I have to
take it home, read it obsessively until 3 am, then I know I've got a winner.
What a lot of people don't realize is that editors have to really love the
books they buy, as they will be reading them a minimum of three times--and
often more. And if they get bored by the second go-round, then they really
are in trouble!

What kind of manuscripts are you looking for right now?

Right now, nothing specific. We're pretty fully booked--which is the
case with most of the big publishers these days. But if I see
something I adore, I'll certainly fight to acquire it!

What trends are you seeing in the SF/Fantasy genres today?

Trends? Mmm, I dunno. Unlike Connie Willis--who has an uncanny ability for
these things--I find trends pretty impossible to predict. Though I also
tend to believe that it is impossible to write to the market--that trends
develop because of what is written and out there and good rather than the
other way around.
But I do know that Fantasy is outselling SF these days--my personal theory
being that science fiction has recently become highly dystopian. People
don't want to read books for pleasure that say the world is bad and only
getting worse. But Fantasy--as in the heyday of SF--is a literature of
hope. It tells us that there IS a future worth fighting for, that good
usually wins out over evil. And I think that is something everyone needs to
believe in.

How has being an editor affected your own fiction writing?

It's been a wonderful learning experience. When you see a finished book,
you hopefully should not see the seams, or see how it is constructed. But
when you edit, you begin to see where books don't work and how they start to
fall apart, which means you can really learn a lot about how to put them
together. And there's a particular inspiration to reading something really
wonderful at work, and wanting to rush home to write something just as
wonderful yourself!

Let's talk about the Cloak and Dagger series. What led up to your first
book, Anvil of the Sun, being published?

Well, as I mentioned, I got my agent off my dreadful, angsty SF novel--but
we couldn't sell that book for beans. So while we were shopping it around,
I wrote another, this time a fantasy. The submission process takes a LONG
time. We editors are very busy, and tragically, reading submissions is at
the very bottom of our list. So by the time my agent and I discovered that
the second submission had gotten lost in the mail, I had written 120 pages
of Anvil of the Sun. We both liked it better than my previous project, and
so decided to
market that instead. And it sold--to one of her clients who was also an
editor, and who had just sold her own first novel to my former boss. (Did I
mention that publishing is also highly incestuous?)

The stars of the series are the fledgling assassins, Jenifleur and
Thibault. What was your inspiration for this fantasy series and for these
two characters?

Well, the inspiration for the series was somewhat three-fold. First, I
wanted to create my own take on the James Bond universe--a fun

"Don't give up hope. It's a tough market out there right now...
Trends come and trends go; lists tighten and open up. A lot of it is
persistence, and a lot of it is sheer, rotten luck. But I tend to believe
the true talent will always make it. And remember: just because an editor
rejects your book doesn't mean that your book is dreadful. The whole
industry is subjective and based on personal taste. And some day an editor
will come along who thinks you are wonderful!"

action-adventure series in which the woman was in control, had a loyal male
sidekick, and a different guy every book. I mean, why should men have all
the fun? I also wanted a world with a technological feel, but without
possessing guns or other such explosive technology. I couldn't quite figure
out how to do that until I realized that if a society contained a subset of
people who could do magic, and that society then advanced to a
"technological" level, those magic users would end up becoming a major
economic power, on the order of the phone companies and power companies
combined. And so the Mage's Guild was born.
The last leg of the stool was my abiding interest in the Victorian era and
the Industrial Revolution, which I find to be one of the most fascinating
periods in history. With the discovery of black-naphtha (essentially, crude
oil) in Anvil of the Sun, I am deliberately setting the stage for a future
industrial revolution which will ultimately topple the Mage's Guild and
completely alter the power balance of the world.
But as for Jen and Thibault themselves.... Well, they came into being one
afternoon in a hotel room in Athens. I was traveling by myself at the time,
and was taking a bit of a lie-down before dinner when I had this vision of a
woman dressed in some outrageous garb climbing in through the window, and
her long-suffering partner--lying just about where I was--thinking: "Oh, no;
not again." Thus were Jen and Thibault born--and that scene actually exists
(although under somewhat modified circumstances) in
Cauldron of Iniquity.

And since the series was conceived abroad, it has pretty much become my
travelogue series. Anvil is set in a sort of alternate Saudi Arabia
(inspired mostly by Lawrence of Arabia, as it is the only one of my settings
I haven't actually been to). Jen and Thibault's homeland, Hestia, is an
alternate France. Bridge of Valor is set in a mentally-rebuilt Dunnottar
Castle, whose ruins lie near Stonehaven, off the east coast of Scotland.
And Cauldron of Iniquity is set in an alternate Greece--whose alternate
Athens contains a conglomeration of the Las Vegas strip and Bourbon Street
plunked down in the middle of it. (Which is one of the beauties of writing
fantasy, being able to play fast and loose with history and geography.) The
fourth book, Dungeons of the Moon, which I am currently planning, will be
set in an alternate Italy, but one which contains the extensive system of
caves found in the Dordogne region of France. Which, I suppose, means I'll
just have to keep traveling more to get further inspiration. Damn; such
punishment!

The mage Absalom is one of my favorite characters. He and Vera's
interactions are especially funny. Do you think he'll have a bigger role in
future books?

He certainly thinks he will! Actually, Absalom is an interesting
character. He was invented--literally--as scene filler and local color for
the bazaar scene in Anvil. Only he refused to go away, became a series
player, and now is one of my favorite characters ever. He is bossy and
autocratic, steals every scene he is in, is bucking for his own series, and
remains an enigma even to me. It sounds odd for an author to admit, but
characters often take on a life of their own, and Absalom is one who
continues to surprise me. He has revealed his background only in fits and
snatches, so while I know a few more things about him than the readers at
this point, even I remain largely in the dark. But I do look forward to
seeing more of him in the future--even if I do refuse to bow to pressure and
give him his own series. (I dislike being bullied by my own creations, and
can be as stubborn as Absalom himself when pushed!)

Let's talk about your latest book, Cauldron of Iniquity, which is the
third book in the series. In the latest book it seems like our fledgling
assassins are finally growing up a bit, and learning some hard lessons.
How would you say Jenifleur and Thibault have changed since the first book
in the series?

Well, I made a very deliberate choice in the creation of this series, and
have been catching some degree of flak for it ever since. But I decided
that it was no fun starting a series with perfectly mature characters who
have no room to grow. So I not only made both my main characters young, I
made them realistically young. Jen is eighteen, and has been born into a
world of extreme privilege. She acts like the typical eighteen year
old--cocky, overly-confident, not much concerned with the future, and
convinced she is immortal. Consequently, she can be a bit obnoxious, and
make some seriously bad choices based on impulse. (Actually, one of the
beauties of Vera as a character is to serve as foil to Jen--the grown-up
version of Jen, as it were.) My hope always has been that Jen has enough
charm to get the readers to stick with her for a few books and watch her
progression into responsible adulthood. I was quite deliberately giving her
a grace period in the first two books, and setting her up for a major fall
in Cauldron--which is probably one the darkest books I have ever written.
It has always been planned to represent a major turning point in the lives
of both my characters, because Jen's fall leads Thibault to question some of
his own, most deeply held beliefs. Hopefully by the fourth book, you will
begin to see substantial changes in both characters as a result of the
events in Cauldron of Iniquity.

Gideon is another strong character; there's certainly more to him than
meets the eye! How did you approach writing Gideon?

With a degree of trepidation. There are probably not many fantasies in
which the romantic lead is a sociopath, and you never know quite how you are
going to handle writing such a character. In fact, the ease with which I
could get into Gideon's mindset at times almost scared me. Should such a
character be fun to write? Because he was! But the other thing I didn't
want to do with Gideon was make him a straight figure of evil. I find that
boring--and stereotyped. I much prefer my villains complex, and while
Gideon is clearly evil, I nonetheless tried to convey the sense of a man who
has a code--even if its rules are completely warped and different from our
own.
And as with Absalom, another interesting thing about Gideon was the way he
surprised me. Without giving any secrets of the plot away, let's just say
even I didn't know Gideon's true nature until close to the end of the book.
Although, ironically, I had been writing all the hints in without really
knowing what I was hinting at.

The fantasy world in which the series is set is quite complex and
uses magecraft to simulate many of the comforts we have here in our world.
What went into your decision on how to set up the magical system in this
world?

As I mentioned before, I wanted a complex, partially-industrialized world
without guns. And I am still very pleased with the genesis of the Mages'
Guild. They will definitely be featuring more in later books--as Absalom's
true background is revealed, and as the oil-powered technology gradually
eases them out of power--and leaves them struggling to find new ways to
adapt to their world.

What's next for Jenifleur and Thibault?

The fourth book, as I mentioned above, will be set in an alternate Italy,
and
will deal with an art-smuggling ring. For the far future.... Well, I've
got a rather long story arc on this one, with the building industrial
revolution and resolving the particulars of Jen and Thibault's relationship.
Not to mention Vera and Absalom! However, just to give myself a mental
break, I am currently working on a vastly different trilogy--more of a
standard medieval/renaissance epic dealing with a world at war. I am very
proud of it, and having enormous fun with all my new characters.

I'd like to talk about the practical side of the creative process. What
is that like for you? (when do you write, do you use the computer, do you
revise a lot etc.?)

Oh, I am a huge fan of the computer! I really can't write any other way. I

have trained myself to write with music, because it is the only time I would
get to listen to it, otherwise. And I am a fairly logical writer. I can't,
like a lot of authors I know, work out of sequence, doing all the big scenes
and then going back and filling in the blanks. I have to write completely
sequentially--starting at the beginning and working toward the end. Partly
because that's the way my mind works, but mostly because I never really know
the middle of a book. Once, I tried writing from a detailed outline, and it
bored me to tears. It mostly just felt like copy work; all the creative
stuff had already been done. Now, I make sure I always know my beginning
point, my end point, and a few key middle bits--and let the rest of the plot
evolve organically, which I find much more satisfying if sometimes a little
scary. Working this way can definitely make you feel like you are operating
without a safety net, and sometimes you do back yourself into impossible
corners. But so far, I have always managed to extricate myself in one
piece, and for me it keeps the process exciting.
As for the creative process itself... Well, luckily I am a very fast
writer. (I actually wrote the last 45 pages of Bridge--and
the last 58 of
Cauldron--in one sitting. Though the latter, admittedly, was an
all-nighter.) Unless I am really on a roll, I tend to work chapter by
chapter. I do what I call the initial brain-spew, then go back and do the
bulk of my editing and clean-up on that chapter. Then onto the next
chapter, and the next, occasionally going back into previous chapters to
insert bits of storylines I only just worked out, or to correct
inconsistencies arising from changing my mind about something mid-stream.
Then, once the whole book is as clean as I can get it chapter by
chapter, I print it out and do the final edit of the whole manuscript on
hard copy--just as if it were one of my author's books. (Yes, old habits DO
die hard!) Then I give it to a handful of my friends for an honest
critique.

When you're not working, what do you like to do for fun?

Not working? When am I ever not working? (grins) Much as I love editing
professionally, it's not a job you can just leave at work every night.
There's always more to do in a day than you can reasonably handle, and there
are always manuscripts to take home and edit. And since the bulk of my
paycheck comes from Bantam, those duties take priority. Writing occurs in
whatever left-over time I can snatch. Nor does it help that I have become
addicted to endorphins, and spend about two hours a day at the gym. But
beyond that... Well, I refuse to give up all vestiges of a life--and I
firmly believe you need to interact with the world to remain creative a
writer. So I go out with friends, see movies, watch too much TV, go to
museums, throw parties, try to get out of the city as often as possible, and
make sure to travel for three weeks every Fall. I think Germany is on the
roster for this September/October.

Who are some of your favorite authors?

In the past, Anne McCaffrey, Tanith Lee, Katherine Kurtz and Barbara
Hambly. In the present... Well, who has time to read non-Bantam books any
more? But that is hardly a punishment. Some of the many delights on my list
include: George R.R. Martin, Robin Hobb, Connie Willis, Lynn Flewelling,
Mark Anthony, Catherine Asaro and Kay Kenyon. I recommend them to everyone
most highly! I have also taken to reading mysteries as something completely
unrelated to work. I am currently addicted to Elizabeth George.

No, it's a frog. It's partially an in-joke from Bridge of Valor, in which I
have a rain of frogs. But I also just like frogs, and like catching
them...if I can. The picture was taken at the Innisfree Gardens in
Milbrook, NY, where I go every year after apple-picking. What they--I
suppose fortunately--cropped out of the photo is the mud all over my jeans
from where I fell into the lake chasing after the frog. I am a very
dedicated amphibian-stalker!

How useful do you think conventions are for aspiring and/or published
authors?

For aspiring writers, I think the best things are the writers conferences and
the critique groups. I have attended many, many writers conferences as a
guest editor, and the services they offer are amazing! The attendees get to
speak to editors and agents one on one, can practice pitching their book,
and sometimes even get personal feedback.

And the talks are also most
informative. As for the critique groups... As I mentioned above, there's
no better way to learn how to construct a book than seeing where other
people's don't work. Critique groups are valuable both for the insights
into your own work as well as the chance to refine your editorial instincts
by examining other people's works-in-progress.
For the published authors... By all means go to the big conventions! I do
the Nebulas, the World Science Fiction Convention, and the World Fantasy
Convention every year, and they are amazing! The SF and Fantasy community
is truly wonderful: smart, funny, generous, and accepting. I have come to
consider most of its denizens as friends, and going to the conventions is
like a gigantic family reunion for me, because I get to see all the uncles,
aunts, cousins etc. who live out of town. I look forward to them every
year.

What is your advice for aspiring authors hoping to get published?

Don't give up hope. It's a tough market out there right now--even for me!
Trends come and trends go; lists tighten and open up. A lot of it is
persistence, and a lot of it is sheer, rotten luck. But I tend to believe
the true talent will always make it. And remember: just because an editor
rejects your book doesn't mean that your book is dreadful. The whole
industry is subjective and based on personal taste. And some day an editor
will come along who thinks you are wonderful! I hope...