A Letter to the Narcissist – No. 62

Hello H.G

Well now how could I exclude one of the two most influential Narcs in my life? Influential for very different reasons of course.

I have reflected on my interaction with you and your work on many an occasion. On the one hand I am aware that you are an insufferable bastard to many in your personal life and have caused much chaos. Dangerous. I never lose sight of that fact, but it does not prevent me from looking to the other hand to celebrate those things about you that deserve to be.

There are others Im sure that would find this letter in accordance with their own confusion about you, and still others that would find it a distasteful display of fawning over you. Matters not to me as these are my thoughts and observations and I make no apologies for them. I wish to appease no one.

You dont get a pass because of your childhood, but I can see how being denied the love and acceptance that you so craved and deserved, saw you searching for a way to stop the cruelty that replaced them. A solution that would not have it become just a lesson in sadism and an act of futility, but one that would result in success and recognition, as why should you be denied that after all that you suffered? You had after all an example of effectiveness right before you in your Mother. If you would become her-you would not suffer you, yes? And a very effective machine you did become indeed. Despite debate about this, I do believe we need people like you in the world. People who would blanche at that might consider the following: (with just the information offered and not altering the scenario).

In a military operation thats success would ensure an end to war, would you:

Strike a school full of children where the coward responsible and his pillars of power are hiding out (and this is your only opportunity), or spare the school at the cost of ongoing conflict, lives of countless soldiers, their children, and innocent civilians?

In a flood: Faced with saving either your brother whom you love and has lived 65 years, or a baby that has its whole life ahead, what would you do?

As a surgeon: taking action that will extend a life but in insufferable pain, or greatly reduce the amount of life but in relative comfort? (assuming they cannot make the decision themselves).

Oh and make these decisions quickly will you-time is of the essence.

Not so black and white now is it? Well……not to US, but there are those who can assess these situations quickly with hard logic-not blinding emotion, and in those cases we may consider who has the perceived disability.

These situations of course result in some benefit to both sides and exclude those that in the perspective of most, you choose to perpetrate for your own needs- but from your perspective, you believe to be necessary to survival. That seems to be the crux of the matter and begs much further investigation and a true willingness for both sides to suspend ego, understand, and accept if there is ever to be change.

It is also not the reason for empaths to do as they do, but we might consider our own egos and the fact that without people like you, how would the empath shine as the beacon of light we believe ourselves to be? Who would they fix and heal? Pour their life into to feel satisfied, whole, and complete in gaining (or going without in some cases) reciprocity? Candles are less celebrated in full sunshine.

I do not believe all of your kind deserve to bask in our light, but because of your intelligence and effectiveness, you have found a way (while not your goal) that benefits others while you achieve your own aims. I will say I find that approach to be genius as I have not seen this kind of success elsewhere that looks to be a possible catalyst to change in this behavioural dynamic of empaths and narcissists. Your approach and work in your articles, books, interviews, and the blog community have definitely affected me and changed me in some ways. They have given me answers and some peace where I had restlessness. I feel I have grown in the unlikeliest of gardens. I still dont know love, but when I make a choice intellectually and not instinctively not to harm someone, perhaps that is a kind of love in its own way?

My feeling is that rather than demand that you change and bend to our will (which seems acceptable by some collective and pre-determined notion that is still unclear to me), I choose to take the action that is available to me and that ensures success for ME.

To limit my interaction with your kind where possible (unavoidable in such situations as work and family) and to those that result in mutual benefit (this would appear to exclude intimate relationships due to the “mutual” component).

To hold to a core principal that my boundaries are respected, and when they are not-to understand that changing them to accommodate your lack of them is not an act of love, but of emotional self-flagellation, and that if I do allow them to be breached that I should look inward for answers-not excuses or blame.

To my mind, little HG has managed to mine much gold from the barren mine that was his childhood to find a way that works for him, and while that may not sit well with others and they beg for your further introspection and improvement, I say we have not walked in your shoes and that we are not always entirely successful in walking in ours. It seems from both perspectives we need elements of each other but feel they should be offered and not have to be taken by force.

I will continue to avail myself of all that you and your kind have to offer that benefits me, and I offer of myself positivity, traits, and strength that I have in abundance and am more than willing to share, but only to the point that they do not diminish me or those I care about in any way. Anything else you require to feel complete is for you to resolve and not my concern.

Little HG shines in you to my kind brighter than my red cloak to yours and of course therin lies the problem. Despite that-it is a light that you cannot extinguish any more than I can mine. It shines brighter than, and drives any success you have enjoyed to date. He is stronger than you recognize. Stronger than your mother ever was. Strong in spite of her, and guides you and others despite your lack of consent or belief that adult HG runs the show. Its possible we’re more alike than we think, in that we’re not the only ones who dont see things as they really are. Possible.

Wow.
Your letter was very good NA.
Both of them.
It did not deserve all this sh*t attached to it.
This type of drama has been occurring far too often on the blog.
The reason I mostly just read now.
When I think this is done ,
come back and read,
I am hit with it again.
Attacks on readers.
I feel compelled to address it.
I know it is pointless.
But, NA, you once encouraged me to speak up more on the blog.

Anyone who uses logic can see what all this really is.
This truly has provided the best example of narcissitic manipulations on the blog.

Upon looking through past blog comments.
Just now after reading this thread.
Took awhile.
I found three potential past culprits.
That may be “Aunt Clara”
Emotion Detective, Vasti and Claudia.
Only one has posted under vast user names.
As HG indicated.
However I do not rule out the other two could be that ONE.
Or other posters too.

This person has manipulated the blog for years
from what I have observed.
Behaviours that range from love bombing, devaluation,
disengagement and then that cycle repeated.
Lashing out at other readers
Expressing anger and jealousy to HG.
Attention seeking.
Pity plays.
Victimization.
Acts of revenge and smearing.
Never constructive contributions to the blog.
These truly do highlight the extreme nature of narcissistic dynamic.

I do not believe this ever had anything to do with NAs letter.
More the continuation of an unfolding drama.
To create toxicity and chaos.
To wound and to fuel.
This exemplifies the need to use logic over emotion.
To not allow oneself to be swept up in the drama.
To not engage when red flags are
presented.

HG your work is very valuable to those of us who
are here to read and learn to heal.
For ourselves and for family and friends and co workers.
To support each other through your work.
Thank you for showing us the truth in this blog.
So we can apply it IRL.

BTW. Aunt Clara. To be clear.
Yes, HG is calling you a narcissist.
Well, without him using the words, of course.
He is allowing your behaviour to say as much.
Carry on, as you will, do and have.
It is evident,
you will always be present on-the blog in some form.

U r wrong analise13. My posts are restricted to this letter & one other short statement on another blog . Nowhere else. I ve never manipulated “the blog for years”. Lies. I’m fine possessing narcissistic characteristics & u repeating & clarifying a past comment doesn’t make me love myself any less. I don’t care if I’m a narcissist it works for me. So that u knw – it’s not always easy to manage those characteristics. They’re a blessing & a curse & require a lot of control. Like the cognizant vampire who chains himself up at night for he is one of the good vampires & his aim is to protect people by waging an internal battle against himself. Hg Tudor is indeed right encouraging people to learn from this exchange.

You would need all the forces in UK and US to defend you. Her majesty would be the first to condemn. Btw, I have referred to daily participants that attack newcomers as campers to H.G. in emails. I say that because that’s there primary role or goal. They aren’t really here to encourage others neither are they willing to spread the word. Allowing this message to be released twice speaks volumes on how she can contribute to this blog.

This is not an attack towards H.G. although no stranger. However, my borderline, bipolar and narc??characteristics hinder my growth at times . I am inspired knowing more people have awareness of this personality disorder.Some people perceptions are that the person must be successful, or a certain class to be a narcisst.

Which, brings me to this question. HG,,why would a narc seek therapy and take psycho meds if they are narcs? The obvious answer is to secure the IPPS is threatening to leave. But, why would they hide or dent it? As, I am typing my the answers are popping in my head.

Do you mean YOLO why would the narcissist agree to enter therapy (see But I Can Change for the detail on why they would do so) but why would they then hide that they are entering therapy or derail that therapy?

When I first read this letter, I was nicely surprised! A letter to HG! HG is definitely an influential narcissist to many here. It is not a love letter. ‘Sexual benefactor’ is documented in great detail in ‘Sex and the Narcissist.’ It is published and public information.

Sadly, NA’s childhood was traumatic. Her stepdad was a heartless lesser and her mom was not able to stand up to him. This is devastating for a child. NA had other siblings that she felt she needed to take care of (pls correct me if I am wrong NA). Yet she was powerless at the same time, being a child herself.

She is no longer powerless. She survived it! In addition, she now has a narc on her side – one who does not belittle her but wants what is best for her. This is why we are so grateful to hg and why we feel that he is a narc in our lives worth recognition and worth writing a letter to.

We all have narcissistic traits. But we do not all develop full blown NPD. I applaud those here who have been through a traumatic childhood yet do not develop npd. NA is one of them. There are many others but I will not name them. They have survived! And in the end they do not hurt others but rather try to help others. It is respectable and commendable.

Fact: Hg has no favorites because he is a narc and everyone is replaceable.

Thank you.
We have come a long way with each other haven’t we? We did not have the best of starts. We challenged each other, and over time learned to really listen to what the other was saying and to their experience to better understand and to determine intent. Not always easy to do. You stood up to me and for yourself Jenna in providing me the information about why you feel the way you do and how things affect you and that helped me to form a different view. Thank you. That takes a strength that I hope you recognize in yourself.

We have indeed come a long way with each other, and it brings happy tears to my eyes. Thank you for saying that I have strength. It means alot to me coming from you. I have learned alot from you. I have learned to put my emotional thinking aside, because in the end, it is what gave me back my life and my sanity.

I appreciate your presence here very much. The blog is not the same without you. Your wit, humour, good nature, articulate comments, and direct advice is so needed on a site like this where everyone has been hurt. I realized you truly cared for me more than narc ever did, and I felt powerful knowing hg, narcangel, clarece, windstorm, k, nuit etoilee and others wanted the best for me. You made me realize that.

Only a few pple in my personal life know my story because I was not at liberty to disclose it. But here, everyone knows it. I feel a warm connection with so many here. Obviously it would be nice to meet but since that is not possible, exchanging typed words and heartfelt sentiments will do just fine.

Yeah because NarcAngel is the only person in the world who has had a hard life. Everybody goes through difficulties one way or another & battles through like a soldier without the pandering for favoritism with cookie letters of infatuation (then ironically tells others to refrain from such messages themselves!) & virtue signaling in almost every comment. Vomit! Virtue signaling is another word for narcissism. I enjoy everyone’s comments (not referenced to me) not b/c they are all in depth analysis but it’s good to understand various points of view – aside form NarcAngel’s – & 1 other – comment saved for l8r. U still accept letters Hg Tudor? U may get 1 fr. me & I get to choose the picture ….

Aunt Clara, you may have noticed I’ve been troubled by your comments. I wish to explain the backstory and why I’ve been so desperately wishing for you to ATQs. You see, I have a very dear friend and colleague who is suicidal. I’m not sure where you live, but we live in America and have been affected by the recent suicides of Kate Spade and Anthony Boudain. My dear friend recently purchased a gun after five years of suicidal ideation. She ‘reassures’ me she has not purchased the bullets yet. She says I’m the only one she opens up to completely and in depth about her plan. I’ve continuously tried to get her to seek the help of a professional as I’m not skilled but to no avail. I’ve read all of the suicide prevention websites and have personally sought (on my own dime, not that it matters) specific counseling for myself in regards to helping my friend. When she and I ‘dive deep’ to the source of her pain and why she would choose suicide as an option, she can only tell me how much it bothers her that person ‘A’ or person ‘B’ is afforded this preferential treatment or gets this attention or promotion while she feels ‘invisible’ and ‘unheard’. I constantly implore her to focus on her gifts and uniqueness and not focus on others, appreciating herself. I’ve even looked into ‘codependency’ support groups in my area. I love my friend but recognize I can’t save her. I’ve been trying to appeal to the ’empath’ side of you for some additional insight to my friend. I’ve also relied on my trusty friend Google which, after typing in key words, has lead me to learning about ‘grandiose vs. vulnerable NPD’. I wonder if my friend suffers from the latter. Anyway, I hope you ‘hear’ my appeal to you for insight Aunt Clara. Thank you for listening.

Aunt Clara, I’m just really hoping that you’re not the narc some are accusing you of being and can really help me help my friend who expresses herself very similarly to you. Thank you again for listening.

NarcAngel has never ever denied the preferential treatment she receives on this site from HG Tudor. HG Tudor never ever denied that NarcAngel is his favourite blogger either. No express denials by either one in those words.

Nobody has commented on why NarcAngel tries so hard to tell other women to stop their fantasy of HG Tudor & his sexy voice yet her entire letter is about her and hg Tudor. She is protecting her catch hg t & needs to hoover over his comments on many articles when he pays attention to other women – -and she adds her own immediately after like a jealous woman to ensure he knows she is present willing and able to maintain her standing in his eyes.. & thumb print on his forehead … so damn obvious. How U Tudor have not realised this is beyond me….the way u inform people about narcs I now inform u about a matter u appear blind to or ur too stubborn 2 accept it or just ‘…. whipped into submission ie golden period’ ……

I just love how HG Tudor has been hoodwinked by NarcAngel. The Great Elite Narcissist himself has been swallowed like a little fish by the Great White Narcissist Angel. Lolol HG Tudor you have downgraded from the Great Elite to a Mid-Range.

Those who allege must prove and you have failed repeatedly to do so. You’ve been given repeated opportunities to do so and you’ve (predictably) failed. No further comments rom you on this matter will be aired.

Done! Complete….Finito! You got any problems with HG, then take it up with him, email him! You got any problems with NA, sort it out by email rather than on here!

What did I learn from this?!

1) Nobody will know the truth, nor can they!
2) Everyone likes to have their say (including me) and feel they have to defendexplain themselves, including HG.
3) People love arguing, fighting, and slinging accusations at each other.
4) Everyone likes to think they are right, or to prove a point!
5) Nobody actually cares or is interested in making peace.
6) Narcs rules, narcs blog, narcs always win!

1. Yes they do, I know the truth,
2. People do like to express their views, yes,
3. Not at all.
4. Not at all.
5. Not the case.
6. Irrelevant to the issue on this thread. It was about an unsubstantiated assertion which has been forensically taken apart, nothing to do with the rules of the narcissist.

Personally I didn’t need to read HGs answer. I have known. You are an Empath and empathetic. You just don’t throw it around, you use the other strands of empathy to. You actually listen to what a person is saying to understand and not to hear what they say.

Not everyone who speaks is looking to be understood yet only to be heard. You are able to discern which and apply how to respond to the person and not react. Sadly some here look for reactions instead of understanding never understanding the difference.

I demand pictures of this “love affair” or it didn’t happen. (Email is fine😉) NarcAngel could be chained in HG’s black “basement of pain” for all it should matter to anyone but them. Adults having fondness for each other and interacting on a blog? 300 comments later and no pictures??? Teases…the lot of you….

I did – to the infatuation part, but not HG personally (obviously, he’s anonymous) —with the masculine power he is performing, through his stories and voice. He’s the Dad of the “primordial” authoritarian father moral hierarchy. So lots of people can ‘worship’ that, from many different motivations. This was less fear-based and more trying to identify with his power, in a complimentary way but not competitive way.

It goes with the catwoman mask – here is a dead mouse, but “i killed it”. You know?

No one here really knows who HG is, what he looks like or what his life is like. We’re learning about narcissism from the mask, not from behind the mask – it is a real narcissistic mask that’s on display but it’s not being fully deconstructed.

Behind the mask isn’t just malice, but reality, human flaws and limitations. Everything a narcissist doesn’t want you to see. To “love” HG would mean to know him beyond his performance, and HG knows that if you did, you wouldn’t love him. But even in real life, he’d never show you who he was and you’d still fall for the seduction.

No worries “Narc Angel”. To me, I thought that “NA” on the above letter means the name of the sender is Not Available. And I thought HG on the letter is just a similar to HG Tudor’s name, by coincidence.

The point is, some accusations were raised mainly because, some of the previous letters on the blog were written from victims to their narc lovers. So, the accuser might have made a conclusion without even reading the full letter.

In my opinion, I think it’s such a creative idea to write a letter from you, as a reader, a fan, a learner, etc… to the blog administrator or to our teacher. It was an interesting letter to read!

So, let’s look at the bright side, this post should be the post of the month!

Wow. It’s a letter written with respect to a man who has obviously helped her immensely. What is with all the hate and negativity? And if per chance NA is one of HG’s “favorites” why should any of us care? He dosent belong to any of us. He is providing a valuable educational service to us. NA appreciates this. End of story. Retract those claws. Great letter NA.

NA,
So beautifully written. I do not see this as a sappy love letter nor a self serving narcissist monologue at all. Perhaps because I’ve “known” you here and witnessed your strength here And I have an ear for you honest voice. Your blending and holding both “good” and “evil” traits together, not holding one higher than the other is the meaning of being truly “nonjudgmental” and is evidence of deep empathy that was earned the hard way, by each deep scar that you experienced and healed. It allowed you to make space for both, understand the value of both in this world….which is the opposite of black-white thinking. It is the dialectical. And it’s beautiful. You make no excuses and give no passes in your nonjudgment view of HG. Or of empaths. It is just life and life has its own ways of teaching. And for what ever reason you, I, and the bloggers here all found each other and HG is something to be grateful.

Side note….holy sh….I missed the drama yet again.Woozers. I say, brush it off and do you as always NA!

I just shake my head bc i see people suffering with terminal cancers wishing they could have one more month to live and see petty bullshit like this going on. In the grand scheme of things this is “nothing”.

I cant believe the drama is still going on in this letter. Lets say for arguements sake HG did have favorites on here why would it bother someone so much? Really stop to analyze that. Why would that matter? If it is that upsetting my advice would be to take a break and live your life away from this blog. Its meant for educational purposes and support not to become obsessed with any inner dynamics that you may think are going on. My feeling is the accusations were brought up bc of possible jealousy and personality conflicts and a way to put it out there. Even if you dont like narcangel why is that so important? You dont even know her. This is online and not your life. It sounds like youre letting the blog get to you. If its affecting you to this degree really stop and look at why that is and realise its a healthier to leave than start a full blown online smear war.
I do wonder if HG was a female if this would be an issue?

Chihuahuamum
Very good point. I don’t understand why anyone thinks he would care about any of us. He’s a malignant greater narcissist, for goodness sakes! If he did show favoritism it would just be to stir up controversy and infighting BECAUSE HE IS A NARCISSIST PEOPLE! That’s what they do for amusement.

Not saying he’s doing that though. I believe he really follows those rules he’s always mentioning, because the success of the blog is important to him. But in the back of my mind, i always remain wary… No offense HG. It’s like a built-in reflex.

Hi windstorm…i agree and bottom line this is online. I think people lose sight of that and let online dealings consume them. Thats why personally when hg takes a break which he on and off does its a good reminder to all that he has a life of his own and so do we. If the blog is consumong you and has become your life then its become toxic. At the end of the day none of us know each other and probably will never meet so why let so called “favortism” or anything else consume your thoughts and day?
Theres also this little tactic called triangulation and altho i dont think hg is doing that as hes pointed out hes showing the dynamics of posters other narcs do and theyd have a good ol feast having women in conflict posting back and forth this way. Just something to think about.

Iroll
True, but then if HG were a woman, most of us wouldn’t be here. One of the reasons he is so effective is that most of us are women and our problem narcs were men and he explains the male narc so well since he is one.

Look – in private life a female malig-narc could be as manipulative and full of malice as her male counterpart and also be in a position to do a lot of damage, but that doesn’t change the fact that she still has to face the obstacles and choices women in society face, and male narcs face the male obstacles and paths.

The female narcissist is no more or less of a threat, but she comes off less sympathetically because women are supposed to be nurturing and we also tend to underestimate feminine power: positive and negative.

Society, however, associates masculinity with power and authority—and that’s why HG’s bulk followers are women, because more men are narcissists than women (according to psychology)—and why HG’s hostility against women also seems erotic. That aspect is why we also felt attraction to abusive men. So it bears observing rather than nullifying.

Violence against women is subtly (and not so subtly) normalised. Authority is the right to violence, but in our ‘social contract’ it is justified by a protective role that only punishes when necessary, while coming from ‘a place of love’—even, God’s love. That’s authoritative father ideology.

Clearly HG breaks that contract after he has constructed it to a degree that surpasses ‘other men’, because conquering women is how men achieve masculine power (without it having much to do with the woman herself). It takes *us* longer to disconnect our associations between authority, violence, justice and love (vulnerability)… because it is all connected subconsciously to our desire for male partners.

We don’t need to blame anyone for having these associations, because we all ‘just do’.

If anything, male narcissists who target women especially, recognise feminine power because they’re threatened by it. That could be mother-separation issues, i have noticed a lot of male narcs had strong maternal and weak paternal influences in their families—as well as the conflict between fuel-dependence and intimacy-rejection patterns. The narc dynamic is about status, convenience or boredom-escaping thrills, rather than relationships, but they have very fragile self-esteem.

HG has also implied that his father’s feelings of love were denied to him by his callous and power-focused mother. He conquers women to achieve status, but also to defeat his mother. He learned, in any case, that while love is stronger than power, power has the ability to manipulate love, but only when one can withstand love. That ‘game’ is also a cover for self-avoidance: one also has to withstand selfish desire for power in order to be a more mature person.

Love-empathy and power are intertwined for us all, but the narcissist sees this struggle more from the power-end than the love-end, because to them being vulnerable is a fate worse than death, an obstacle in the path of success and so on. Others appear to have no subjective value and their love can be separated from them.

If we can see the narcissist from a loving perspective, then they are weak, not strong. If we believe that power is more important though, then we should do as the narcissist does: win at all costs. Most of us don’t see relationships as a game of winning though, even if we find some aspects of power erotic. There is more to a satisfying life than that!

Well said, iroll. It would be enlightening to have a discussion about the masculine and the feminine in ‘the West’ in relation to narcissism. One thing that interests me is how these constructs differ across cultures. I have been confused before about whether a ‘disorder’ I suspected an individual had was due to mental illness or to different cultural practices/values. How would one recognize a narc coming from a radically different culture? Or is narcissism a specifically Western construct emerging out of capitalism and an ethos of individualism? Is narcissism spreading along with neoliberalism? Are more women becoming narcs? How does the brain rewiring happen? The brain is plastic, as we know, but still it is kind of mindboggling to imagine that ideas and practices could actually change brain anatomy, or is it because if one does not have to use the emotional part of the brain it withers and dies? I wonder if anyone is doing research on this…

Look, those who have been waiting in the shadows for this opportunity to let me have it, and especially those who have cowardly changed their names so that we cant go back to see what actually transpired, are welcome to rail at me all they want, but I can tell you its a waste of time. I am bulletproof to your words due to prolonged and focused abuse by an actual narcissist. You have nothing on him and yet I endured it for lengthy periods (usually ordered to stand). My mother knew that if she intervened it would get worse (this was his provocation) so she would wring her hands and flutter about (for instance when we were standing against a wall and being asked a question by him only to be told we were liars and have our face slapped or head cuffed) and say things like: not in the head-you know she gets headaches. I never flinched.

So if you think you are hurting me (and why would you btw? aren’t you purporting to be empaths and better than me?) then you are sorely mistaken.

But rail on if it makes you feel better to get it out. Thats my empathic gift to you.

MB
That was mild and I apologize if that triggered or upset you. That was not my intention and why I dont speak in specifics often. I know there are many out there with horrific stories who do not speak of them for exactly that reason, and when they do mention something it is to open peoples eyes to the realities of not getting out and staying out.

Good Lord NA! You certainly don’t have to apologize to me! My upset is a testament to my sheltered existence. I am fortunate to have never experienced abuse. I’m not a violent person at all. I feel guilty if I accidentally step on an ant minding his own business. But I swear I just want to kill these useless pieces of shit that hurt innocent women and children! That’s not a man. That’s a fucking coward! And I want to shake your mother because she’s more of a coward than him! If a mother won’t protect her own children, who will?

I’m truly sorry you had to endure that NarcAngel. I really am. To me it’s incomprehensible that someone would treat a child like that. I can’t believe that any parent could or would do that. The lasting emotional scars and subconscious, internalised effects from that abuse shape your whole life afterwards, so that shows how damaging such treatment is.

If it helps at all, I know that it feels to you like people have been waiting to “let you have it”. I can see how you would think that. Your letter caused many to react in a harsh and retaliating way. However, I don’t think they were reacting to you personally in a targeted way to “get back at you”. I think the replies you received may have been “reactions” in kind to your “actions” not only due to this letter as an isolated instance, but also due to your views, interactions and communications over time.

Please don’t take this personally or negatively. I am trying to help you see things a little more objectively.

What I mean is that you have a strong and sometimes opinionated way of viewing things and stating your beliefs and humour in a “no-holds-barred” kind of way. I’m not saying this is “bad” or “wrong”. It’s who you are and how you feel and you don’t have to apologise for it at all. Your communication style is a riot sometimes. You are very witty and creative and it’s a lot of fun to read your comments.

The thing is though, that you may find that people will naturally react to you in a way that is also strong, opinionated and “no-holds-barred” at some point. Maybe not every time, and maybe not everyone, however, there will be times when others who don’t have the same communication style, will respond to you in a similar fashion, and it may surprise you and even “hurt” you because you may see it as them being mean or harsh or “attacking”.

I think we all want to be treated in a respectful, non-judgemental and sensitive way. No-one likes to think that they’re “wrong” or be treated disrespectfully. The thing is that we all have our own internal definitions of what “insensitive” or “disrespect” means to us personally. There will be times when our own perception is that someone has treated us this way, when the other person’s perception is that they haven’t.

You might see the reactions of others as personal “attacks” but I don’t really think they are. I think some of the strong reactions you received derived from the things you said in your letter, Those things may have resonated negatively with people who have been badly affected by narcissists. I know you were thanking HG for his help and for all the admirable benefits he has given to many people through his hard work, his insights and his interactions on this blog. I acknowledge that. It’s just difficult sometimes to reconcile that concept with the very harmful and abusive things HG writes about. To be thankful to HG, we need to suspend our knowledge of the fact that he is a narcissist and all that that entails.

I don’t think anyone’s purporting to be better than you. I don’t think they’re deliberately railing on you either. I know it’s easier said than done, but please try not to take it to heart or take it personally.

Both empaths and narcissists suffer from the scars of abuse. And thinking about it that way, you were right in your letter to say that “we’re more alike than we think”.

I wasnt talking about everyone who responded. I am far from fragile. I accept strong and opinionated, but not the total clowns pants crazy that was displayed here, and certainly not to have it extended to others just because they may be open-minded to my opinions or have interacted with me. Helen Keller could see which were opinions and which were attacks. The attackers can knock themselves out. The irony appears lost on them that they are slinging shit into a fan and covering themselves while others watch.

People keep telling me that my letter was about thanking and gratitude and love. It wasnt, but what do I know-I only wrote it.

Who said you are fragile? I certainly didn’t. You are very resilient and strong in my opinion.

Even if someone was to think you’re fragile (which you aren’t), who gives two hoots what they think if you know that you’re not? Let them think what they want to. Similarly, if someone starts a “clowns pants crazy” thread about you, it only fuels their fire if you rail back at them. Get a grip Batwoman! Holy moley! Has HG taught you nothing?! You’ll never be able to rid yourself of all the “Aunt Claras” out there, no matter how much you try. Let the shitstorm settle for a while and after the mud floats down to the bottom, things may look clearer.

PS. I actually did take your letter as being “thankful” to HG even if you didn’t express your thankfulness directly. Your letter celebrates HG and his kind for their positive traits that you yourself have benefited from. That’s the message I got from it anyway.

The narcissist and gifts. Jan 4 2018. Has not commented to me or responded to me since then (thats fine) even when I responded favourably to her letter (when previously posted). And then lo and behold much discussion here in front of many. Co-incidence? No. Waiting.

With all due respect, those aren’t the words of someone whi is bullet proof. They sound like the words of someone who has been very much affected by whats been said here. Now that might not be the case but thats not how iit apoears.

It’s not the case Lori. Some people are applying their emotion yet again to the words and not mine. I am not bothered by it in the least.

This part is not directed at you Lori but in general. Sad that I have to explain everything to this degree but some people would assume that it was.

How can some people think I am so cold and ruthless on one hand and yet have nonsense bother me? I answer because I dont think people should be able to sling whatever nonsense they like and have them or others think its correct because I have not replied. Like they have ‘run me off’. They are bullies and trolls and they will tire of it before I ever do so I suggest they apply what they have supposedly learned here and give me the silent treatment. Also, if people dont like me or my letter or it bothers people to see these exchanges then no one is holding them here. There are several other articles. I have actually been on them myself. I encourage others to check them out and I’ll deal with fallout from my letter here. If no one interacts with me from here forward I guess I’ll have gotten the message and if the blog numbers go down or it is compromised by my being here in any way I’m confident HG will not be too shy to address it. He does not have to post my comments (or anyone elses) now does he?

I think the blog would not be the same without you NarcAngel. I mean that in a good way. Sometimes you can come across as a tad bit harsh, (though that might not be the right word), but we are all affected by different things, and what one sees as harsh another might see as direct, and who am I to talk ey?! Look how I entered… (Yeah let’s not go there lol) but then there are some that come across as way too mushy for my liking, but then the blog is comprised of lots of different personalities that don’t know one another well, and somehow only through words alone have to find a way to get along. I guess there are going to be clashes and disagreements. However, we all have one thing in common, and that is we’ve all been abused by narcs in some way. I feel a bit bad for Survivor and any others that have left. I don’t think its good to shoot each other down either. But that’s just me.
Truth is we don’t have to like one another, (though it helps), we just have to try and get along nicely and as best as we can I guess. We can actually all learn from one another. Just my thoughts….

Tigerchelle78
We CAN all learn from each other. We just cannot all BE like each other. Using the word harsh for me is fair, but as you point out – one persons harsh is another persons direct. Also what some people call a conversation is considered a confrontation by others. We all have different styles of communicating. I know that I am not considered ahem…comforting by most (to say the least). There is a lot of that available and thats great, but sometimes in all that comfort my view is that we may not stretch enough to consider other things. I challenge comfort. I figured if people received comfort and emotional support from nine out of ten comments that they might have enough to sustain them to be able to consider the tenth. One which might take them out of the comfort zone to consider different action or reflection. They could accept it or reject it but at least it was thrown in the ring. I am learning that many do not share that view. You ever witness that group of friends that totally cries with each other and gets together to drink too much much when one of them breaks up? and then theres that one chick that says “knock it off, he was an asshole and you know you deserve better. You’re lying to yourself. Get off your ass and do something about it? I’m that chick. Yeah- she doesnt get invited to much lol, but shes cool with that as long as you leave that asshole. But in the end its her decision.

Sure NarcAngel…. I do have a friends that are very similar to you. They are like the “tough love” type of gals. And I can relate to you on having a father who physically abused you. My father abused me in lots of ways. Your mother didn’t do anything to protect you, and mine was not around at all. These kinds of experiences do indeed shape us, and we had to be strong, and tough, even though just a child. We had no choice in the matter! I also relate to you in the fact you had siblings to take care of. I too was a mother-like figure to my two younger brothers. I am not sure what kinda narc my father was. I’m thinking lesser to Midrange. Only HG would know. I do often say it how it is. No pussyfooting around. Sometimes I can be very direct. Have little tact. But I’m also emotional, and so I often react based on how I feel. Im probably more codependent. So my narc and empathy traits are both strong. You are a lot more logical than me, and you express and write better too. But I get what kinda chick you are. I’m the kind that would rather drink beer with the lads and play pool, then do a girlie night! Though I can adjust if the need arises. You do your thing here, and you’re good at what you do! You are needed here.

NarcAngel
Your ability to remove sentiment and deliver the facts, coupled with wit, is indicative of your respect for the reader’s capacity to handle the truth and look beyond the emotion for a beneficial solution.

Plain and simple, you are discerning the individual’s toughness. It is a test of character, thus, the question is as follows: Does the reader fail or does she pass?

I agree with you Tigerchelle78. Well said. There are many different personalities here with many different views and thoughts and there will be times when inaccuracies and disagreements occur.

The one thing we do have in common is that we are all here on this blog, so there is obviously something that brought us here. We’re all learning and benefiting from being here and interacting with each other in a civilised, constructive, enjoyable, and well-moderated way. That is well and truly to HG’s credit. If staying here is not benefiting us, then we are free to leave.

I personally don’t know what all the hoopla is all about. Even if it were true I don’t see how it would impact anyone here.

I was simply saying that your comments are not coming off as bullet proof and indifferent. Indifferent and bullet proof usually don’t tell you it just their way of being.

I could tell the Narc all day long I don’t give a shit but the mere fact that I’m telling him that ndicates I do and honestly he’d be 100 percent correct though I’d deny it.

Just my 2 cents which mean nothing. I just don’t even really know why anyone cares. HG can do whatever he want with whomever he wants and it’s not my business. People need to stick to obtaining information that’s helpful to them and forget the rest

Haha. Good lord. I thought I might know better how I feel but even that is apparently better determined by someone else. Unbelievable. Hey, seeing that you dont care and just move on like you keep saying, here’s one for you: You keep peddling that people are co-dependents and they have no idea like its your job and you get a commission. I have just ignored it previously and moved on as you espouse here so I guess we agree on that.

Deal with what fallout? So some people made some comments in the end do they know you? No. Does it matter ? No. This is where my confusion comes. Someone who is bulletproof would not see this as fallout.

I personally don’t see fallout who cares what a bunch of anonymous people say. It’s the Internet. Now if it were my family, friends or colleagues that’s a different matter. But anonymous people on a forum? pfffft

NA, This speaks to the total control a narcissist can impart on their victims. As a mother, I cannot imagine standing by watching as my children were being attacked. Verbally or physically. His control was stronger than a mother bear’s instinct to protect her young? Is that possible? I would take a bullet for my child, standing between them and an abuser, no question. No wonder you have such contempt for her and HG for his father for their weakness.

I know step narc is dead. I woke up this morning thinking about you being hit in the head. I got angry and flushed and heart racing all over again as you entered my sphere. I needed to write more. “Express myself” as Quasi so sweetly says and obliges me as I do.

I believe that when a person passes over, they have a rush of EVERYTHING they did in life, the good and the bad wash over them in that instant and they see everything clearly, feeling it all the way it was felt by the people in their lives. Not done as a punishment or a reward, just as a complete awakening from a dream. The lessons of an entire lifetime, summarized like a final exam. He was finally able to know the pain and anguish he caused. He was able to feel and understand it from your perspective and learn from it. Hopefully, he is a good student and learned what he came here to do and will not need remedial instruction the next time around.

Deep thoughts that I don’t expect anyone to accept. I never talk religion or politics with anybody as they are deeply personal and almost always controversial. Nobody knows what happens in the after life other than those that have seen the other side and been revived. It just makes it easier for me to accept if I know there was a purpose for the bad things that happened.

I don’t know what got into me. Must be what happens when piss boils over.

Lol, enjoy your 5 minutes of fame camper is over. When new people came here seeking help and needed consultation but couldn’t afford it because they were rape mentally and physically by the narc. Myself and others discussed paying for HG services. You were the first to disagree and say he could not be trusted. Although, you had reap the free concessions he’s offered via, this blog, fb, and other avenues for free.

Now its payday, and you are paying the cost to be the perceived Boss. HG you can keep this in moderation but know I have faced scrutiny by listing you as a site. And i believe I am 30k first time visitors. I have no emotional investment in this because its not political and I can see both sides one being relevant others that have recent tragic relations with your kind.
Happy Freedom day.😂😂😊

I questioned a general pot of money held in trust by a narc to districute services to those he deemed worthy. That would apply to dealing with any narc in any business venture and pointed to the question of trust people should have in general with money and narcs-not just here. I do not discourage someone paying for another specific person as that could be acknowledged. Now if I am so pro HG why would I ask empaths to question their trust in a narc with their money? Btw-if it was deemed a great idea people could have gone ahead with it Yolo and you could have started the fund.

This is another example of not opinions and observations but of personal attack as you keep following me around with these comments. You seem obsessed with me and that is not healthy. You should discuss this in therapy. I mention that not as a slam but because you have mentioned you do attend therapy and I think thats great. I hope you continue to.

Codependency does not necessarily arise out of an abusive or substance abuse situation. I had neither yet, I am Codependent. I was diagnosed about 8 years ago by a therapist and psychiatrist that specialize in personality disorders

That yawn reply says it all. I used to be a very good customer of yours once & at that time everyone was respected, welcomed & revered for their contributions by u. A bygone era & these girls that just criticised me liked me too…The rules have changed since then & bloggers fit a new grading system. Disrespectful to the rest of those who make an input to be met with a ‘yawn’ except for one person … how offensive is that!..

btw I helped this article reach about 300 posts – w/o me it would still be at 20/25max… yes I’m good for business like….this letter is mediocre at best & warrants little input – ‘yawn’…if it was any it would have reached 300 comments on its 1st release… the other letters are much much better … eh 🙂 £££

Do make it all about you. You may have added to the comments but the reach of my site is what results in the material reaching many thousands of people every day. The yawn was directed at you re-hashing groundless accusations and not providing any evidence in support. I’ve made the position very clear and I’m drawing a line under the matter.

There is no grading system. Let’s see the evidence of this system, not your anecdotal conjecture. Oh, there isn’t any evidence because there’s no grading. See the rules about comments, debate and behaviour. That’s what applies.

To be honest, Aunt Clara, if you would write clearly you might get a bit more traction. Most of the people on this site are literate, which is one of the things that makes it compelling. One can tell a lot about a person by their writing. No one wants to read a post full of abbreviations and shortcuts, and lacking punctuation. If I were HG, I wouldn’t post anything that wasn’t well written! Ha.

I did notice that, NA, but I was too tired to read through it or compare it with the other ones. Maybe the messy posts ARE to get attention? I don’t believe I saw an evidenciary post, but I too might have missed it.

So do you perceive that you are not getting the proper attention that you deserve? The attention that it sounds you believe you were afforded previously? And if some of these people who you say now criticize you used to like you, why the name change?

Btw-not that it matters to anyone else because it is irrelevant how many comments a letter gets, it shows above that the last time this letter was posted it got 258 comments. Were you on that post and would you like to be recognized for those also?

LOL. About the only thing I am enjoying in this thread is reading more of you, HG. Your responses are usually short and sweet (‘yawn’) but you have jumped in with both feet here. It adds dimensions and depth to your personality.

SMH, What I meant was that the negative behavior is being reinforced by HG continuing to engage with her. If being aggressive and throwing around inaccuracies gets you attention from HG, then we may see more of it. I’m not saying he does it on purpose, but that IS the way it has played out as of late.

AC, the number of comments in reaction to a blog post doesn’t help HG’s “business”. That info (engagement) can be used to gauge which content is resonating with an audience (and in this case I wouldn’t call it resonating. It’s more HG giving you more rope). His business/reach grows when people share links to his site to places that, ideally, also have large followings and they in turn then link back to his site. Additionally, it’s typically about figuring out the search terms people use to find his site and making sure they are peppered within titles and copy (but in an unforced way). I also doubt you have driven more book sales or consultations. IMHO.

I can’t believe the bickering going on here. It’s like a sleepover for middle school girls. Why do people come to this site? I come to read HG, to get his advice and to interact with people whose comments *I* find compelling and who find mine compelling. If someone doesn’t do it for me, I don’t engage. Why are you engaging? What are you getting from it? In my book and in my experience, HG is spot on. I don’t have to have an opinion about him as a person to see that. I trust what he says not because HE says it but because of its content. I trust myself to judge the value of its content based on my own experience. Why bother with NA or what she writes if you don’t get anything from it? Who cares even if NA does get favorable treatment (I hadn’t noticed)? How does it affect you? Treat every comment like a blog post. If it doesn’t do it for you, if you don’t feel compelled by it, if you cannot relate to the writer, move on to the next post. Sheesh. Sorry for the rant but I feel like I jumped from fairly measured, informative and informed interactions on other posts into I don’t know what. I am interjecting because if everyone is over here having a cat fight, the other posts wither on the vine.

Thank you, NA. I think it is sometimes too easy to get sucked into the virtual as an escape from what is really going on in the world and in one’s personal life. I come to this site to relax and to learn. Maybe today people will have chilled out a bit…

Hi N.A.!
This has been quite the stir this week. With this particular letter, I always appreciated your creativity to put the focus on HG in a way to pay him homage for the help he has given you and especially, as you have said over time, that this blog provided a place for the first time in your life where you felt welcome and people continually asked you to stay and keep sharing when at times you felt out of place and that you should back away. It was how you felt to express your gratitude, appreciation and fondness for HG which I do not interpret as romantic interest. If some think it is over the top, it doesn’t matter because it was your positive feelings you felt at the time you wrote this.
A couple years ago, there was banter between HG and I and he said he was going to send his Bat Mobile to pick me up at 8:00 p.m. the next night. It was a joke and he was kidding. The blog was much smaller back then and the people then laughed at it too. I can’t imagine what that comment would stir today? lol

And we have a winner! I mean in the end, who really gives a rats ass? I don’t but I have found this wildly entertaining and completely stupid at the same time. Even if this were going on which is unlikely who freakin cares? It’s his page his life. He can do whatever he wants. We aren’t the Narc police.

Like i said anyone that would be stupid enough to get involved with a narc on a narcissistic abuse blog has some serious issues beyond the scope of this page but did I see what some the accuser was saying yes I did but that’s my perspective which may or may not be correct. None of us have anyway of knowing but importantly it really has nothing to do with why we are here and does nothing for anyone.

At the end end of the day, if you don’t like what she says don’t engage her. I have had her say things to me. Do I care? Nope. Do I engage ? Not often because I just don’t care. When you don’t care, you have no need to defend and we call it indifference No one here has to accept anyone else’s opinion here as their reality. Take whats helpful to you and move on

You have been most helpful to me Smh and in still laughing at your response to my little SOS to friend all the narcs friends! That was great. I get an evil grin on my face just thinking about it lol

Hehe, Lori. Did you do it? I too have found this thread wildly entertaining and completely stupid at the same time. I too am laughing. So absurd to think that a bunch of adults are fighting virtually with each other about interpersonal stuff, no less. Just shows how easily triggered everyone is. Blame it on the narcs!

What I have found to be an interesting angle in this thread, is if per chance HG should ever announce in some future point that he did chose to meet one his readers and they did decide to enter into a relationship both knowing what each other is, I could only imagine the backlash and hits on that one. This was all based on speculation.
Would all the readers saying they don’t care, really not care if it was official? Would everyone still say it’s his life, he can do as he pleases outside of educating us?
I can say for one, I would find it disconcerting.
That’s my honest answer.
No need for that now though as I don’t believe anything is going on between NA and HG besides mutual respect and friendliness.

Clarence,
Interesting question. I, for one, have never said that it would not bother me, because it would. Not that I care one whit who he dates and not that I have any interest in any type of personal relationship with such a dangerous person. It would bother me because it would be proof that he has lied to us and that his rules are not valid.

It’s difficult enough to trust a malignant narcissist, but to trust one with proof they’ve already deceived me would be impossible.

I wouldn’t see it as a lie. If he denied it and then it was found out, that would be different. I do not believe he would put all of this on the line to do such. He is far from foolish.

I don’t believe he is lying that he doesn’t know anyone either.

I do see it would be a different path he has not explored being with someone that actually knows what he is. No one knows how the dynamics would really play out only knows what has happened in the past not only in their own but his. IMO HG can not even give an honest answer to what would happen only what could happen due to past experiences, yet this was also under the no one knew what he was so of course things would always repeat themselves.

What kills me is now like you, would state they would distrust him IF he decidesd to try this path and admitted it, and people would attack the person he chose because it wasn’t them or due to him being what he is. As I stated both sides would know this changes things.

The point is he has not lied here, why would he begin to even if he and another decided to walk this path.

Twilight
I’m not sure I’m understanding you. He has denied it, therefore if it were found out to be true, then he would have lied. Finding out that he was lying here on the blog (repeatedly as he has denied it many times) would totally destroy his credibility for me. That was my point.

Do I think he has lied about not having a relationship with a commenter? No. I see that as purposeless for him and potentially damaging to his credibility and personally I believe him too smart to make such a potentially big mistake for so little gain.

As to him having a relationship with someone who knows he is a narcissist- that’s a completely different matter. I, too, think that would be a big step toward personal growth for him. But it should not be one of us. It should be a woman who knows the real man, not just the “HG” persona. Someone he knows in real life that he feels is trustworthy and worth the risk.

I do not believe he knows anyone here and I don’t believe that will change.

One could happen to met him in real life, for that one would have to live in the UK, Which takes I will assume 90% out of that equation. Yet It would change things, they would know and it wouldn’t be a meeting that happened through the blog if they met in person in his private life. Hell a person could actually introduce them, granted the one recognizing his voice at that point would have the decision to continue or not, HG may not even know they were from the blog. If he did I believe he would keep things professional, and the other person should respect this decision, not that they could make him do that which he doesn’t want to.

I do know this is far fetched and a very slim chance of happening yet it is still a chance, and life has a way of throwing curve balls.

Twilight,
In the scenario that by some freak chance someone from this blog met him in real life and he chose to have an intimate relationship with them, knowing who they were, he would only be a liar (IMO) if he knew they were from the blog and he continued to deny ever knowing any of us personally.

Changing ones mind or being mistaken do not make one a liar. A liar is someone who knowingly says a fact that he knows is not true.

ET is a funny creature, like a box that can be full of sweet surprise or an explosion of glitter and confetti one keeps finding years later in creases and crevices of one home reminding them of the god awful time cleaning that horrific mess up.

This speculation is pretty insane. I live in the UK, so I am in that 10% in very, very close proximity to HG :-). In fact, he’s probably my next door neighbour in a city of 8 million!! Luckily, British people are not very friendly so I don’t have to worry about HG knocking on my door in search of a cuppa tea or his lost puppy, never mind setting me up for a narc seduction. (Just taking the piss out of you all.)

I don’t believe he knows or has a relationship with anyone here. I just believe life throws things unexpected and if circumstances happen I don’t believe he should be labeled a Lier, if he happened to met someone from here in his private life. Like I said one would have to live in the UK for there to even be a chance of being introduced or meeting in a bar or such.

I apologize if I was rude to you. I really do not believe he has ever lied here. It wouldn’t be in his best interest even in my scenario I believe he would not let things happen because of this very thing assumption, someone would assume it had been going on, it isn’t worth it, and it wouldn’t be fair to him to put “trust” into someone only to have this happen.

I am sorry for writing that all out. I have always taken you for your word on this, not knowing anyone here. I have wondered thou how things would be for you if you decided a different path, and with your growing popularity you could happen to met someone under different circumstances not connected to the blog, no one would believe this to be true and still call you a Lier just because of what you are. That makes angry because you would still be telling the truth, you would be judged for what you are and not what actually happen.

It was hypothetical and will never happen, I believe you would know and stop things before anything ever happened.

I know right ? This thing is funny as shit. I didn’t friend his friends BUT another of his friends was chatting with on the friends page that did friend me so I expect this guy will soon send a friend request ahahaha!

I can see the angle your looking at there, with the hypothetical “what if” situation.
Some may want that situation, I don’t know, I would not want to speak for someone else or guess how they feel.
I am responding to your post as it made me think ( I know scary shit) but my overall comment is a general statement expressing my perspective.

In my opinion this will always be a “what if” question and never a reality. I believe that this is not only due to the rules which he has set as a parameter for his conduct; and to ensure the success of the blog, but also – where would the fun be in that ?

I get the impression from his writings that he gains a lot more then fuel in the whole process of identifying a person and targeting them, researching them, studying them in person. I believe he gains a lot from the process of identifying everything he needs to secure them, feeling the accomplishment in these efforts adding to the fuel he gets from them as standard.
I imagine that this will also be more evident in devaluation.

Readers have quite often given him a lot of information about themselves through the blog and through consultations if they have utilised them. He knows a lot about a lot of people.
There would be no chase, no real fun.
He may find interaction with readers entertaining at times, but it is just banter. I think he feels more able to do this with readers who have been on the blog for a while as he he knows that they will not read into it or think it’s anything other then what it is – banter.

If a reader did form a relationship with him Which as he says will never happen, they would likely go through everything except quicker and less. There wouldn’t really be much of a golden period as he knows them, devaluation may be quicker as he may get bored quicker and just find it frustrating that they are trying to use their knowledge of him to stop this.

No one here really knows him, and we never will. No amount of reading and interaction with him will enable this as we are interacting with one persona.
HG is one of his personas, a construct specifically designed to reach the masses and spread his teachings, for reasons of his own.

I know we can share our opinions here, I was unsure of giving mine but I feel more confident to do so now, although I am aware that many may disagree. I have kind of stated this before but not my full opinion.

I am hopeful that HG does not ever reveal himself under his “real” name and life.
I feel he is more effective using an anonymous persona, and he will continue to reach more success in this way. As a by-product he will help more people, as I feel I have been, I honestly believe that I would not be where I am in my understanding without him. I want more people to benefit from the knowledge he shares.

I also believe that he has shared enough of his personal life and his childhood. Enough for people to understand why he developed narcissism as a defence mechanism, and also enough of his personal life to give substance to his articles and help people relate to them and him.
I think he should keep what he has left to himself. I don’t believe we have a right to ask for anymore from him, then he has already given.
Of course If he chooses to for his own reasons then fine, but I don’t agree with pressure being applied to do so, just because we have a direct access to him to apply it.

(Sorry if this comes thru more than once. Holidays wreak havoc on my phone service.)

Quasi
Great analysis! I completely agree with you on all points except maybe the last one. I don’t think HG feels any “pressure” from us about revealing who he is or facts about himself. If he feels anything at all I imagine it’s sardonic amusement.

But all you said about the banter, anonymity helping spread his message, that “HG” is just one persona, the fuel he gets from the hunt (which would be totally missing from any of us. We’d be like shooting fish in a barrel) – I think that’s all just spot on and very well said! 👍

Thank you windstorm,
I appreciate you taking the time to read and respond. I never expect anyone to do so, so I thank you.
I believe you are accurate in your reply. Please excuse my summary of pressure, this was my perspective in the sense of how much can we expect someone to give, rather then how I interpreted he would feel about it.
It is a perspective of someone who has only been reading here for a relatively short time, probably time for me to pipe down lol…

You stated: “No one here really knows him, and we never will. No amount of reading and interaction with him will enable this as we are interacting with one persona.”

I do feel that the persona he reveals here through his writing is one of his most real personas though, since he has shared his strengths, weaknesses, and fears with us. He would never admit to any of these off the blog. He says he fears nothing but I must remind him that he fears low fuel levels and the following emptiness, and he fears the creature.

I understand what you mean, about the HG persona being the most real, and how low fuel and the creature create a concept of discomfort or what we would classify as fear.
Of course through being an anonymous persona he is more able to be real. I have always commended him for his works that presented to me as honest and brave, works that revealed some of the core and the motivations for why he does as he does. I have commended him for putting himself out there for critical analysis of anyone who chooses to do so, putting yourself out into a public arena for whatever may be hurled at you requires a strength regardless of the mask you wear.

However even with the more real persona being presented here, we still will not know him, not really- we still will only know what he wants us to know. That is true to all people that we meet – people have a persona they present and act through, however the people that we meet in “real life” we can form attachments with and spend time with, we can get to know them in more ways then they present, they most often have good motivations and purpose for wanting to be in our life, and we can form reciprocal attachments to them based in good intent and often love.

Even then there are occasions when we say to ourselves-I felt like I knew them but I didn’t.
I imagine most could say that about the narcissist ( or narcissists) that they encountered in their real life.
We can not know him by the pure nature of that fact he is a narcissist, and has not developed a core sense of self, by pure nature of the fact that his motivations will always be founded in a place different to ours.
What I have learned from HG is incredibly valuable to me, but it also makes it very clear what it is to be a narcissist, with that understanding I can not feel I will ever know him.

I write here with my full honesty, because I am enabled to, I am here under an anonymous WP account. I chose to be anonymous here because I wanted to be real here ( which has an irony of its own), and also because of my own situation. I wanted to be free to share my story with all the dark bits of both my situation but also the dark in me, the personality streak in me that the narcissist in my life found and pulled to the surface. I’m still trying to integrate that DE streak, into a persona that was very different.
So in all honesty the statement you have highlighted is also the depiction of my rational / logical mind – based in logic and more evidence as presented to us by HG. My rational mind is essential to balance out the emotional mind. I will never be someone that makes all decisions in just one mind, purely logic or purely emotional. They may not always be in complete balance, dependent on the day and other influences, but I always use them both to make decisions and to guide my actions. My emotional mind feels the strongest emotion of gratitude for HG; it is really quite powerful and a little overwhelming at times. If my rational mind did not remind me of the above and more then I would be a fawning fountain of emotion, probably infatuated with him. So maybe I also write such statements to reinforce them in my own mind too. I believe acknowledging this statement and believing it is important. Well for me it is anyway.
Thank you for taking the time to read my post and respond Jenna, and please know I only ever write here from my own perspective, I appreciate you sharing yours with me.

This is a great thread; I haven’t had much time to read most of it (I’d much rather be reading it in depth than documenting my narc’s escalating behaviours – which I really should be doing atm.)

I’m not going defend NA’s perspective because she is much more capable of doing that for herself. But I do appreciate and respect her shared experiences.

However, I can’t help making a general observation. I love that this blog is full of self-aware people who are able to communicate their inner experience – WHATEVER that particular experience is – HG included, naturally. What a treasure this is. *Seriously, what a treasure trove this is.*

I think there are people here who have some really amazing, insightful experiences that I haven’t even been able to appreciate because their communication style gets in the way, or their experiences don’t resonate with me at first – or I really haven’t had time to read their posts – but for the ones I do have time for; at least I gave them a read and learned/confirmed stuff about myself (and them) as a result. I have never been around so many people who enjoy thinking about thinking – and can (most of them anyway) clearly articulate that experience to others.
And I think it’s pretty brave of those who have written to their narcissist – bet they didn’t do that expecting to get attacked by empaths. No, they were just articulating their own experience or journey in relation to the narcissist in their lives.
For someone to put their inner thoughts out there – whether or not they are perfectly formed, raw, honest, spiteful, insightful, inspiring, brilliant or controversial – it is clearly therapeutic for them and possibly a learning experience for others – that at least should earn some respect.

WhoCares
I’m glad you raised the point about the letters. I would hate to have others deny themselves the opportunity of writing their letter and have others miss reading about their thoughts and experiences over fear of being attacked. This rolls off my back but could be very damaging to another. Although I doubt it would happen to others. My letter was an opportunity some had been waiting for and couldnt pass up. I know this.

I get the point about people writing to “their” Narcissist but HG isn’t her Narcissist. I think that is why this craziness has started because she wrote a letter about HG. I think people see that as implying he is her Narcissist. I realize that some people write about Narccisstic parent etc but the vast majority of letters are written about a romantic entanglement and that is what most of us are familiar with

“I get the point about people writing to “their” Narcissist but HG isn’t her Narcissist. I think that is why this craziness has started because she wrote a letter about HG.”

I think NarcAngel’s opening statements in her letter “Well now how could I exclude one of the two most influential Narcs in my life? Influential for very different reasons of course” should be the guiding perspective for reading her entire letter. And I think that people would be better off reflecting on the ‘influence’ of their own personal narc(s) and write their own letter, or reflecting on the influence of HG on them (for good or ‘bad’ – although most would state that HG’s influence on them has been ‘good’ or helpful…or revolutionary) than trashing or dissecting her letter – as some have done.

It is quite insightful of NarcAngel to reflect on this and detail how she feels – if some of the commentators took time to do this (instead of just acting out) they might learn something about themselves.
Personally, I know that I have wanted to jump to conclusions about dynamics on the blog (in the beginning) and that my responses to how I perceive HG have evolved during my interactions here. And I have learned much about myself and applied that to my interactions in my personal life.

Instead of just crazily projecting on to HG, NarcAngel has at least reflected on her experience with him (and other narcissists) and come to terms with that. Several people are still just doing the crazy projecting and might never move beyond that I suspect…

I mean, if you’re going to take the time to write post after post highlighting what you think of NA’s letter…I just think the time and energy would be more constructively spent writing your own letter to whatever narcissist was the most influential in your own life.

Yes HG, that is what I meant. I think thats why people got confused here. We are so used to discussing our romantic entanglements that we naturally presume that’s what these letters are about and the vast majority are so I think that why there was an assumption made here.

HG Tudor and NarcAngel have denied that anything is going on between them beyond what the blog permits and I believe them. I take their word for it. OK SO THERE IS NOTHING GOING ON BETWEEN HG TUDOR AND NARCANGEL. However, there was an element of favoritism apparent where HG Tudor gave the perception to me at least and a few others who have liked my comments that he took a more prominent liking or interest in NarcAngel compared to others via their interactions. Which is of course totally fine. But it did beg the question whether there was more to it or just a perception engulfing the site of which the two were not aware or maybe they were but for different reasons and uses. There is nothing wrong with flushing out a mistake or misunderstood perception. Since HG Tudor is the only moderator (as he stated) he had a first view of the issue I posted. He did not have to post the messages at all if he felt uncomfortable but he honestly did so in the end.

If NarcAngel is or was aware of this preferential treatment from HG Tudor it certainly appears that she is taking advantage of it. There is also another issue as one blogger pointed out in so many words here we have a group mentality or a buddy system where a group of women stick up for each other and – I add my own point to that – even when one of them debating a subject is factually wrong. These women don’t step outside the group think so not to upset the apple cart defend eachother to remain loyal and accepted by the group – followed by an unusual and unnecessary amount of ‘thank yous’ and apologies to one another. This infused preferential treatment has pushed NarcAngel’s standing within this group and is indirectly accepted as their leader. That is probably a big empathc characteristic and cannot be faulted as these persons try to please everybody. I am an individual thinker not a group thinker. Calling out HG Tudor and NarcAngel was done knowing that a backlash would ensue. I’m fine with it because I don’t have the backbone of a mollusc or the morals of a jackal and don’t have a need to fit in. I am an empath too who seeks the truth but not at the expense of pleasing everybody.

Anyway I strongly encourage people to continue reading this blog because it is enlightening funny interesting and confronting to those with raw emotions. I have no reason to dislike HG Tudor. I do enjoy a challenge and I too may give the wrong impression to readers that my quest for fact-finding is ill intentioned. I assure you it is not. It is merely an effort to achieve a balancing act of ideas and some fairness when I detect an injustice however small – like an offensive act of preferential treatment. I do stand by my conclusion that favoritism exist here afforded to NarcAngel by HG Tudor and was never categorically denied by HG Tudor. In the scheme of things it is unimportant as long as the blog remains active and assists those in need we can all look past that pesky little issue. As for the content of the letter (and I don’t mean if it was well written or not) which has been debated one must decide for themselves the true intent and desire of the writer and what it really says about the writer. The above is just a small portion of my opinion obtained from this blog written on the run…

Aunt Clara, I’m still wanting you to address why you continue to passive-aggressively attack NA. I’m still fairly new but have taken the time to read the historical commentary and understand why NA is so highly regarded. It’s not mob or group mentality but utter empathy and respect for what she encountered as an enlightened child trying to navigate a severely dysfunctional upbringing. All of us who understand including HG admire her innate survival instincts. I will ferociously defend NA having the privilege of her sharing her personal story with us here. What’s your personal story? Maybe your sharing and being vulnerable can help me understand your need to attack and create the shit storm that you’ve so conveniently dismissed without ATQs! I want to understand YOU AC!

I am also quite new to the blog, and have not been aware of you until this particular post. So I do not know your story, If you have shared it at all.
I’m struggling to understand your motivations in dissecting this particular letter, or the need to debate its content, on the scale evident.

From my perspective I approach commenting on the blog in the following manner.

-I tick a like for what I like

-I praise HG and other bloggers when I feel that they have written something particularly poignant, helpful, relevant. I also praise when I feel an article or letter has been particularly well written re – style.

– I share my story, I have chosen to write about my situation, pretty much in it’s entirety over the time I have been commmenting on the blog. This is my choice to do so and I personally have found it cathartic. I do not expect people to do the same as this is individual choice.

-I try and advise and support others on the blog, I try to be helpful, kind, courteous and share understanding. This is my nature and where my motivation originates.

– if I don’t resonate with a article or comment, I do not make comment. If I don’t like something I leave it be, I do not attack, I do not dissect. ( I would need a clear purpose to challenge a view, I am able to be open to many POV’s so rarely do this)

I am responding to this particular comment of yours as, as this comment opens up your views to the larger group on narcsite. More specifically the different group mentalities ( group think).
I can only provide my view in response to this and speak for myself alone.

When I first joined narcsite I thought wow NA has power her, people really like her, and respond to her. HG interacts with her often and seems to respect her. I felt intimidated a little by this. ( I have articulated this previously).

Then I read.. I took time to read articles, comments, looking through some of the archives etc. It became very apparent why NA is regarded highly by many. She has shared her story, she has supported people, she has prompted people to reflect and directed them to useful works. It now presents to me that NA gives her time to the blog, not because she needs it to aid her own healing as such, but because she is passionate about the blog being here and being relevant and helpful to the people who utilise it, and to new people who come here looking to learn, find answers and support. I believe that she wants the best possible for the blog and the people here so that victims of narcissist abuse can learn and heal.

This is why I respect her.
I do not jump in to defend her as she does not need my aid.
The group think you speak of – full of apologies and thank you’s is RESPECT and courtesy, It is empathy and kindness.
In my view it is not people charging in to defend a leader, NA is not a leader here . But she is a well respected, well liked highly regarded individual.

People have different views and perspectives on the blog and that is incredibly important.
HG allows all views and perspectives through, so yours were also enabled to be here. (They wouldn’t make him uncomfortable because he does not care) .

I personally like having discussions with bloggers and expanding upon points of view. But I always approach this with the same conduct as stated above. My motivations in engagement here are founded in my want to learn, develop, and to support others.

I struggle to understand your motivations with this engagement, not only motivations but purpose?

“Written on the run”…God help us. I’d hate to see what we’d get if you sat down and really focused. At least you use paragraphs. Survivor doesn’t and her posts are ridiculously long, endless piles of word vomit.

I’m seriously asking you this question…you started this post in ALL CAPS that you believe nothing is going on between NA and HG and then you say “however”. Then you proceed to accuse them in a myriad of ways of being involved. Why are you so obsessed with anything that NA and HG are doing? How is it unjust? Aren’t you getting just as much benefit from HG regardless? I really want to understand. Why do you care if she gets preferential treatment? Why have you written paragraph after paragraph on this conspiracy theory? Why are you insulting everyone that likes and appreciates NA?

How would things be different FOR YOU if all this “injustice” was wiped away? Do you think you are getting less of HG somehow? Also, who were you before you changed your screen name? You go on and on about how you’ve seen this behavior for so long but no one has seen you post before. You have no story that anyone knows about as “Aunt Clara”.

You are getting a tremendous amount of attention. That may be all there is to your insistence on believing what you believe and trying to prove it with a handful of air.

NarcAngel makes us all laugh. Her perspective is expressed logically and with humor. Empaths need both of those things..it’s vital to our survival. That’s why NarcAngel is acknowledged, popular and deserving of my attention. She certainly never complains incessantly. Like I said before…we would go back to our nex if we wanted to hear such things.

Hi aunt clara….favortism exists and thats a reality. Ive had to swallow that pill long ago within my own family. Its part of life and if you feel that to be true in this case ask yourself why it bothers you so much?
I think the way you went about confronting it by suggesting the two were intimately involved was inappropriate and the reason why things went off the rail. Thats a pretty incredible suggestion.
Im a free thinker as well and dont consider narcangel my leader. Im my leader. I admire her posts and input but i dont post out of fear of not fitting in.
Youre free to your opinions but when outrageous accusations are made there will be backlash. It comes off more as an attack than an opinion or observations about the letter.
I think it was the way you expressed.

Thank you for this post C Mum. I have been feeling bad about my strong reactions, but your comments have helped me understand them. If someone wants to discuss the dynamics here, favoritism, etc., maybe they could have led with a different approach so there could be participatory open discussion and dialogue vs. blanket statements

I’ve been looking inside and realize I am triggered when someone speaks (or on here writes) in a passive-agressive manner the way AC started off. I think it is because they are attacking someone for exercising their power and voice and at the same behaving in a ‘poor me’ manner. They exhibit jealousy for something they indeed also possess if they’d just do the work and go inward vs. fixating outwardly on someone else’s path.

I find it reveals a lot about the posters who are extremely bothered by NA here, I think many of us see it, but sadly the posters themselves are blind to it. I’ll be honest there have been a lot of commentators like that lately, and my ET jumped to the conclusion that AC was just the same poster writing under different names, just wanting to inflame the blog and create chaos, then writing about how horrible it is here with all the fighting. And finally, it is not OK for NA to stand in and take the abuse to help these posters work their issues out. I think little NA did enough of that with her stepdad.

There is the argument used by some – both on here and on Faceook in the comments to NA’s letter – defending the impetus of the accusations as ‘an empath always seeks the truth’. Oh the irony! Indeed we do. Indeed we do.

Well if it did I can’t I’d lay any blame at your feet. You have told people a few hundred thousand times that you are a Narcissist and what that entails.

I could see where it might happen from a reader You are a charming guy and quite articulate and when people come here they are looking for any relief from the pain and you have an arsenal of pain relievers so I could see someone developing an infatuation

I know people have strictly online entanglements but I dont understand (for myself) how that could even be fulfilling, so if its long distance its not for me. I guess for narcs its just another dollop to add to the tank so its different for them. They are not limited to the cyber exoerience and have others in the flesh. But on the empath side as your only? Hard for me to imagine.

It ebbs and flows Lilly, I actually find there is less criticism of me (as in gratuitous criticism – I have no issue with people criticising my behaviour in a logical fashion because of course it offends their empathic nature and I understand that). In terms of the number of viewers (who do not comment) and then those who do comment the vast majority are sensible, constructive and here to learn. I do not mind robust debate or observations. Every so often one of my kind will wander in (of course they do not know what they are) and their inaccurate and unfounded knee-jerk responses result in a forensic takedown and foaming outrage!

Thank you for your explanation HG. The reason that I asked this is because it seemed lately that to be the case, like with your “Very Royal Narcissist” and some other articles. Maybe this is the case because you do not shy away from the controversy and stating things as they are. I understand that not everyone can handle this and persevere things from their own perspective. When you publish an article I always make sure to read the comments from your previous posts as well and I often learn so much from those constructive observations, be it a bit critical ones or bloggers sharing their own experience. You can easily spot the sincere, intelligent and brave ones who participate in posting. Also I recommended your site to some of my friends and they were surprised of the childish behaviour (their words) of some of the bloggers and decided not to stay on the blog. I found this unfortunate as there is so much knowledge on this site that you can use for your personal education, not only if you were a “victim” of narcissistic abuse, but in your day to day life, be it work or other interactions that you have with NPD people. I will keep sharing your blog because if you put all the “pollution” aside and absorb the actual information that is provided it really can be life changing, as it was for me. Keep up the good work.

I never dreamed I would but I had an online entanglement. It’s today’s technology that allows it. I spoke to him many times a day. Face timed I knew where he was most of the time and spoke on the phone every couple of hours. It’s different from the days of a pen pal.

Long distance is the perfect thing for a Narc because they don’t really like physical closeness. All they want is you emotions and they can get that from a safe distance and with video chatting they can get great fuel because they can see all of your emotions without having to get all “icky” and kiss you. Many of them hate to be hugged or kissed or even touched so long distance works well for them.

I know this guy well as well as anyone can from a distance and I would say in some cases better than those that are in close proximity simply because the distance makes them feel a bit safer.

Don’t forget that it’s safe sex too Lori. No cooties! It does suit the narcissist quite well in all the ways you mention. And the words…oh the beautiful words (limited energy expenditure). Fantasy may be better than reality.

Lori
Oh I absolutely understand it from the narcs point of view. I just never thought it would be enough to fulfill an empaths needs. I thought there would have to be physical interaction, but I have learned here that is not always the case.

I agree Lori, have also had online entanglements, and its safer from a distance. No nasty diseases either! Don’t have to deal with intimacy, don’t have to deal with where and when you’ll meet, or how often. That is by far how its done these days.
But for narcs, they can have several they are talking to at same time, and they can phone, face time with a few in the same evening. As well as sending messages, emails etc….and they don’t even have to step outside their own front door. Meeting up with just one person, and spending an evening with them, it takes up a narcs energy and time when they could be spending and gathering more fuel in the same amount of time from several sources. You can see why narcs love the internet! Often they will be doing this while with their IPPS too, getting negative fuel.

I was just talking to cousin Charlene about this person with the same name as you posting on the blog. She said “Oh, no! Not again!” and hung up on me! Next thing I know, uncle Chuck calls and………….. well, anyway, he’s ticked that they let you just walk out of that place, and he’s already made arrangements with a more secure locked facility. They should be showing up at Fivebucks right about now to get you. No more coffee and internet for you!!
No, I won’t forget to bring your movie magazines when I visit next week. (Sigh) I know you have to keep up with all your “friends”.

Haha sorry NA, I just assumed if HG wanted to bang you (and it wasn’t against his rules ) he could woo you into it, I’m just that convinced of his godlike powers
No joke
If given the chance, I would TOTALLY bang him, EXCEPT I’d be terrified he’d fuck my life up after, just for fuel and fun. Of course he would-that’s the price. That’s always the price.
That reason alone would keep me “across the pond” as they say.

And to think when I first got here, I was so freaked out by all narcs, much less HG the Grand Poobah of Narcdom. And i was REPULSED to learn what narcs were. Kinda like Clara seems to be. I even asked in a thread, something like “wtf? Is everyone is love with this guy?” I believe I may have used the word “fangirls” lol

It was only after months of open mindedly (coughClaracough) trying to figure out not only narcs but myself …am I comfortable enough in my own skin and with my own demons, to embrace what I am, love it, and dagnabbit if HG’s wit and voice don’t churn my butter just a bit.
From a safe distance. I fuckin love the witty charming narcs. I just do. But now I know , what they are, how to spot em, how to identify ET, how to keep my panties on. AHEM mostly. MOSTLY! Mostly.

Clara you remind me of religious pushers. Just can’t see that their opinion miiiiiiiiiight just be their opinion.

W! “learn keep my panties on. Mostly” ;))) I know exactly what you mean. When one graduates from the Narc University, she can enjoy sex with a narcissit although STILL in a semi-safe manner. “To get the honey but to avoid the bee sting” if you know what I mean. Knowledge is power, right?

Mary- well I’ve managed to keep dem knickers up since I first consulted with HG, I believe it was in February. Despite hoovers, coming at me from TWO narc exes. No guarantees they’ll STAY up tho lol
Plus I’m a narc magnet, except now I can identify them more quickly.
I know HG would say we CANNOT engage safely , to any degree (right, HG?) and I’m coming to see that is because of the infection.
For me, they’re toxic. I actually feel somehow “sick” after interaction.
Toxic but alluring. We shall see how long the panties stay on!!

It is the person who provides the benefit you receive (at the time anyway…) from the olympian sexual talents of certain narcissists. I say certain because apparently some (lower, victim, cerebral – if I recall what I’ve read correctly) are just “meh”.

Oh wow… you nailed it HG. In my mind, HG is the only narcissist I know, apart from perhaps my mother, who is actually worth writing to.
I’ve been toying with the idea of writing a letter to the narcissist myself, but as I have nothing to say to my ex, I refrained. But this is perfect.

How people got the idea that there is anything intimate going on between the two, I really don’t know – but of course humans tend to read stuff into any text, according to their own worldview.

Wow NA, this was a great letter. It makes people think and that’s always a good thing.
I would advise you to lean back and see what is going on. It is learning/study material.

As to the content of your letter: I personally think we can not appreciate enough how you never stop looking for ways to deal with narcs while keeping the communication lines (with them) open. It takes a strong heart and an intelligent, determined mind to do this. Hats off, NA

NA, I lost respect for you when you boasted about the fact you still play with fire. You hang out with narcs to gain fuel. I concluded months ago that you and HG are each other’s favorites. Tell the truth, are you a mid-range or any other narcissist? I think you are a narcissist. You’ve never helped me. Your posts to me have all been cruel. You show no empathic traits.

Ha ha so is mine….only it is this insane mult task contraption thingy me bobber. A toaster, convection oven that burnt my pizza the other night and my toast the next am…..I think it is slightly narcissistic and I pissed it off pushing all the buttons and twisting all the knobs on it. 😁 I have been thinking of purchasing a microwave and a regular toaster just to show it I don’t need it to make my pizza and toast, keeping it isolated from all the other appliances on the tiny space of counter on the other side of the sink, it’s only friend then will be the trash bin.

Hmmm I think I need to reign in my imagination some, sadly thou when I do image things that about sums it uup. I am feeling bad writing all that and putting the connection to them as people being treated in this manner.

I am protective of people, this thou can be for HGs kind to. To me they are people to, yet I will bite back and in this I have to chose my battles wisely. My intentions are not malicious, just look at what you are doing. And if one knows yet gives it an excuse, it is frustrating. At least with Greaters they know, and they can say I just don’t care. I have a respect for this. I don’t have to agree with them, yet they are not lying to themselves for why they behave in the manner they do. The lie that cuts me the deepest is the one a person speaks to themselves, that goes for everyone HGs kind does not hold exculsive rights to that. Anyone that has been hurt and embraces this pain will show it in different ways trying to fill this void. Some it will be shopping, some food, some drugs, some hurting other people, etc. The deeper this pain is the malvelont it becomes. Pain breeds anger, anger breeds rage, jealousy breeds envy which breeds contempt.

Sorry about the rambling of my thoughts, I haven’t been able to sleep the past few days, change is in the air and has me unsettled on top of the strange dreams and repeating nightmares.

Twilight
Change is unsettling. Are you getting ready to do something stressful you’d rather not do? That tends to be when I have repeating nightmares. Strange dreams seem more often to be after I’ve seen or heard something disconcerting that challenged an accepted belief. Good luck with them and any difficulty looming in front of you.

Twilight
I’m fine. Enjoying summer vacation. Grandkids are all fine. One grandson turn 4 yesterday. Enjoy hearing about you and your minime. My little granddaughter that I have the strong bond with is in Kansas, so I don’t see her much. She’s definitely not a minime though. She’s already obviously a super empath like her mama!

F***U
Well why dont you show the name that you previously posted under instead of hiding behind this new one and direct us to the posts and cruelty you are speaking of. Am I to take the word of an anonymous?

I agree with F**U.
My thoughts exactly.
Others feel the same about NarcAngel and say nothing for fear of being attacked. Little empathic traits, cruel to other bloggers, so damn cocky, strong narc traits, cunning & favored. That about sums it up.

AC, if you have been paying attention to my work you will understand I advocate the use of logic and reliance on evidence. So in the absence of you answering my forensic questions with any evidence I am going to see if you can provide evidence to answer these questions.

1. “Others feel the same about NA and say nothing for fear of being attacked.” Please provide evidence that supports this. Not your assumption, but evidence. Do you have comments to hand where people have stated what you assert? If so, please direct me to them.
2. Re favoured – by whom and where is the evidence in support of this?

Do you realise how it makes you appear when you fail to provide evidence in support of your allegations? Let’s see if you can deliver some evidence.

I was always told, stop putting wood onto a fire and it burns out…. what Aunt Clara has done is not only made this thread entertaining, for many, which is funny, (although stressful perhaps for some), but she has made us all start fighting amongst ourselves about all sorts of things. Why not just let her have whatever she has to say. Many are eager to prove a point, and prove they are right. Who cares?! Just leave em to it…. Ignore them! You cannot stop people believing what they want to believe. No matter what you say, or no matter how much evidence you put in front of them. People are very stubborn. People like to think they know best, so let them.
It reminds me of the UK Parliament in here….
There are more important things than proving a point on a blog run by a sociopathic narcissist!!! The point is we do not know the truth. Nobody does. And nobody will. Again, you cannot trust a sociopathic narcissist. You really think he would be stupid enough to let you know the truth? You CAN trust him though to keep you all guessing! Lol

Again, you fail to understand the way the blog operates and long-standing readers know this. The whole point about challenging AC was to demonstrate how her allegations were groundless to demonstrate a particular dynamic. The invitation for her to provide evidence and her subsequent failure to do so served a useful purpose in exhibiting the dynamic so readers could use it to further their own education and understanding.

I’m not a long-standing reader HG as I’ve only been here since early Feb. I’m truly confused about the dynamic being demonstrated. Aunt Clara is a narcissist and we are learning by observing the interaction between you, her and other bloggers?

Yes, that is correct, MB
projection, deflection, envy, jealousy, smearing, unfounded accusations (lies), conjecture, delusions, name changes, provocation; don’t react with emotion, use logic then disengage and wait for the response. It is a great way to learn the dynamic.

HG Tudor Letter 62
JUNE 29, 2018 AT 09:12
A sensible question which will not be answered because it’s sensible.

Thank you K. I truly was confused as to what prof. Tudor wanted us to learn. I felt bad when he didn’t answer, like he thought I was being a smart ass. Not my intent. I don’t want the lesson to be wasted.

You are welcome MB
I don’t think that HG thought you were being a wise ass. On this thread we were able to see the narcissistic dynamic play out in real time and that was part of the lesson. Whatever you take away from that, it is not a waste.

K, I think the line really has been drawn now, thank goodness! As far as what I took away from it: surprised that HG played her game. IMO he was giving her exactly what she wanted. I thought ignoring a narcissist was the way to wound, yet he engaged, (with both feet as one reader stated).

1. You must not engage with the narcissist because you are empathic – thus you are at risk of harm from abuse, you need to drain your emotional thinking and ensure it does not spike so you lose insight. My engagement with a narcissist, because I am one, does not impact on me in the same way – I am impervious from the down side.

2. Note that my interactions did not provide any fuel. Rather, I forensically took apart the stance adopted. This fuel free approach starved the accuser and also wounded by virtue of the repeated calls for evidence. Thus I was not giving her exactly what she wanted. I wounded by posing fuel free questions.

3. The further purpose of my engagement was to educate readers so they could observe the dynamic and assess (to further their learning) what was happening.

Thank you for explaining so I can understand. You kept alluding to “the dynamic”, but the only dynamic I was witnessing was what looked to be the mighty HG stooping to her level. I missed the point and feel properly chastised for doing so.

MB
HG engaged in a fuel free manner using logic. It was an excellent demonstration of how a narcissist behaves IRT. You can see how AC deflects and never provides evidence to substantiate her spurious claims. She just keeps going round and round creating more confusion and chaos.

Try rereading the comments and the responses a couple of times to help with your understanding. I find it very helpful and I make mistakes quite frequently, however, I never let it deter me.

I did not read HGs responses as fuel-free which was where I made my error. I could “hear” him saying it in his voice and the exasperation was obviously imagined as that was not HGs intent. (I shall read Fuel again as my remedial exercise.)

As ever, I overthink and read into what is not there. During the whole exchange, from my perspective and all in my own mind, which I now know to be incorrect, likened it to repeatedly poking at a snake with a stick. It hisses and hisses, wasting its energy, but you keep poking anyway daring it to strike you.

If I’m the snake, I make my escape and disappear while they are gloating, thinking they’ve won. I save my venom for a yummy dinner, not stay there being poked until I lose my shit and waste my resources on something unworthy. That’s the difference between empathic snakes and narcissistic snakes I suppose. A valuable exercise nonetheless.

MB
Remember, you are still relatively new to the blog and, even though I have been here for 14 months, I still make mistakes. Don’t forget, you knew that the girl in “Who’s Your Daddy” became his girlfriend and I didn’t. Thank you for pointing that out to me.

Do not feel belittled or shamed. Plow forward like the intrepid empath that you are; mistakes be damned! We are all here to learn and there is a lot of information and it can get overwhelming at times.

I’m over it now K. We’ve talked about my shame before. It’s self inflicted. I’m not sure what it is about being “called down” that bothers me so. When it happens, I feel like a child. Imagine my soppy puppy dog eyes staring down at the floor wishing it would swallow me up. We aren’t given more than we can handle and God knows I would not survive a proper devaluation. I would be Narc dogmeat!

MB
Ha ha ha…you go girl! When I was a kid, I was a nonconformist and very anti-social, so cheerleading and girl scouts weren’t on my To-Do List. I grew up on the streets with no parental involvement. Both my parents were lessers and they were too busy getting fuel.

MB
I was smart enough to fly under the radar, most of the time. My father, twin and sister got arrested quite a bit. I do have street smarts; instinct, however, I have successfully blended into the middle class and my street smarts are defunct most of the time.

I understand wanting to fit in, to be a cheerleader and have a group of friends that accept you. It’s the parent’s job to socialize their children and make them feel worthy and valued. Often, they fail.

It’s perfectly ok to state your feelings to the narcissist. It’s your tone, facial expressions, and body language that will determine if it’s fuel free or not. It’s not easy for us to do. For me, it helps to focus on my breathing the whole time. It’s a simple trick that negates the emotionality of what I’m saying. If it’s a typed message it will be low on fuel either way. By adding swear words, caps, and exclamations etc. it will increase the fuel given.

HG was very clinical in his responses during the interaction and that is why AC didn’t stop responding. Every post of hers was more unhinged until the empathic members give up their sympathy/pity….then she stops.

Is it bad of me of me to comment on this thread just so I can subscribe to follow all the comments? It is most interesting to read all the opinions from different angles, some factual some flavoured with ET. Pass the popcorn!

Dear hg
I met you at a really strange time in my life. I was coming out of a formal relationship with an upper mid ranger. To be honest, i met him at a black tie party when I was engaged to marry a greater that was 22 years older than me. When that relationship crumbled, i jumped into the bed of the upper mid ranger. The mid ranger would call me a tweaker. I was obsessed with my perfect blonde long hair, i was obsessed with being thin. Every Friday I would buy a new dress and go out, so that my new narcissist could show me off in true somatic fashion. He became increasingly jealous of me. A beautiful blonde was meant to be on the arm of the Narcissist, she wasn’t supposed to have an opinion or outshine him. I was constantly devalued. I eventually found out I was pregnant. I told him. He said he would marry me, but i had to abort the baby. I didn’t want to. I wanted to make a decision for once in the relationship. I wanted to keep my baby. AFTER that, followed extreme malign Hoover’s. The man who claimed to love me and wanted to marry me, suddenly gave me silent treatments or tried to talk me into killing myself. I fled. I left my residence, quit my job, i had my attorney tell him to never contact me again. I went home to my parents, who lived in a trailer out in the middle of the dessert. It wasn’t glamorous, it was far away from my life that i once knew. I started to blog and write again. While with the Narcissist I was never able to reflect or write. I was always getting ready for the next big thing or caring for the narc. I was also looking for answers to what happened in my life. I came across you on the silly site of quora. So many self proclaimed narcissist. They all gave the impression that if you were perfect, than the Narcissist would choose you. But i was perfect. I was Every thing the Narcissist said he wanted, even his friend all loved me. I was confused as to why he devalued me so harshly. THEN I came across your work. Every time someone asked you to answer a question in regards to narcissism, it was factual , no nonsense, and lead to your site. You just started your narcsite page. It all started to make sense. You articulated the intentions of the malignant narcissist so in depth. The narcissist came back around to claim what is his. You showed me how the Narcissist believes he owns me and our daughter like a possession. He brought terror into my life in the worst possible way for running away with his child. But you have helped me to cease the power. I still become confused as to why a narcissist behaves the way he does. But i can still move forward, create a new life, and raise my child. Save the children was my saving grace. Congratulations on your success. It has helped me
.

HG, does any of the raw outrage and ridiculous accusations against both you and NA smack of jealousy to you or am I way off base here? Some have made the choice to believe you and NA are somehow connected without anything to base that belief on and as a result they’ve come unhinged. It’s just so over the top.

Hello 12345, as you know I have no issue with people slinging mud at me, it is a little dollop of fuel. I always correct inaccuracies and do so with reference to cogent, logical argument based on evidence. In this instance, once again I am correcting the inaccuracy, relied on the evidence and invited the relevant individuals to support their position using evidence, not speculation.
There is of course no evidence to support the suggestions made, thus the question arises,as you have posed, why would someone make such accusations when there is no evidence. The potential answers are

1. The accuser does not like me and hates to see me praised.
2. The accuser does not like NA and hates anything she writes.
3. The accuser wants to be my IPPS and therefore reacts adversely by seeing NA (and/or others) as a threat to that desire.
4. The accuser does not like narcissists per se and notwithstanding the substantial and enduring assistance I have provided to hundreds of thousands of people, cannot recognise this and lacks object constancy in balancing the ‘good’that I do as against the ‘bad’ that I do.
5. The accuser does not like the attention I receive and/or NA receives and therefore concocts a situation for the purposes of gaining attention for themselves.

Now, an objective third party will see there is no evidence to support the allegations and will therefore determine that 1-5 must be applicable in some way. Of course the accuser, by the very nature of their behaviour in issuing accusations which have no objective foundation in evidence, will be unable to accept this because of an adjusted perspective.

This is interesting because I think theres a difference between observations and accusations. Have I observed some of her points? yes I have. Does that mean that the conclusions drawn from the observations are true ? no it doesn’t. Does it mean they are false ? No it doesn’t. My narc used the word accusation more than any other person I have ever known. He took any observation and made it into an accusation. I have to wonder if that’s a narc thing.

But here’s the real question, does it matter? Nope/ do I care what HG does in his personal life ? Nope. Is it any of my business ? Nope.

I come here for information from HG as it pertains to my own situation and to share information and experieces. In not here to examine HG s progress in therapy etc… that his business and he has professionals for that and what he does in his private life is his business. I think we should all just stick to obtaining information and maybe not getting so personal just my opinion

…or maybe it’s none of the above and a commenter simply doesn’t agree…

Like in most cases when dealing with narcissists and narcissistic people, a narc will turn any objection or contradictory view into an “attack” that somehow proves that the person who doesn’t agree with them is lacking in knowledge or cognitive understanding, is jealous, or resentful, or “has no evidence” or is “inferior” in some way.

They will defend their own position no matter what and will turn it all around so that – surprise, surprise – they end up in the spotlight as the “accused” while they are actually doing the accusing. A nice example of projection right there.

yes yes yes, and a thousand more yes’s!!!!! You just hit on a very important point there. And its probably the only point in here that actually needs to be addressed. None of this other stuff actually matters, but this point DOES!

This behaviour, where a contradictory view or objection is viewed as an attack, or an accusation and then the following happens where usually more than one will tell that person any number of things, like they must be jealous, they must have deep pain, they must be a narc etc etc, or any number of other things, (other than they just had a difference of opinion), and making that person out to be inferior and shooting them down,…. this is what NARCS do, so my question is why then are so many empaths in here doing the same thing when someone simply disagrees or has a different opinion?

No, it was not an opinion. It was stated as fact and therefore that is why questions were asked about providing evidence (which still has not been provided and of course will never be provided because none exists). In this instance, AC’s position had no evidential basis and this, understandable led people to then ask on what was it then based and jealousy became an obvious answer.

There are instances in other discussions where there is a difference of opinion and people note that and this does not result in people bandying around alternative explanations for the difference of opinion, people recognise it, for what it is.

Thanks Tigerchelle78. It’s an interesting question you ask. Why do empathic people – or anyone for that matter – jump in to join an argument and try to accuse others of various things and make the other appear “wrong” or inferior?

There are probably as many different answers as there are people who make comments. There would be a variety of reasons, I’d say.

Right? I would make a simple observation and I would get are you accusing me?!!! Wtf? And later I learned he was guilty of everything he said I was allegedly accusing him of. I’d say that was his guilty conscience but he has no conscience lol

In the end, do I care if someone here may or may not have relationship with HG? Nope. That’s their damn business but I’d say if a guy repeatedly tells you hey I’m a narcissist and you proceed you’d be pretty stupid or have deep emotional issues and needs that only a narcissist can meet.

I like HG. There’s a lot of great info on here. I could do without all the personal stuff that goes on here, but its the Internet. I take the good with the bad. I take the info I can use and leave the rest and he’s been most helpful to me

And we all know HG will be engaged in many relationships in his personal life anyway, he will have his IPPS, and secondary’s etc so I do not understand why there is fuss or alledged jealousy about even if there was some kinda relationship going on. Its his life. He does what he wants. They never stay faithful to only one person. One person does not sustain their fuel needs. This is where some people cannot separate HG, from his work. He becomes an obsession to some. A fantasy, and like he belongs to them. I’m glad he is far away in proximity from us all. Its a good thing.
I would never want a relationship with a narc, only friendship perhaps.

HG, I noticed sometimes when you comment on someone’s behavior here on the blog, you use terminology like lack of object constancy, deflection, rationalization, etc. that are common narcissistic behaviors. Perhaps, I am overthinking this but I wanted to ask you whether in doing this, you are communicating that even empaths may engage in narcissistic behaviors, which is, obviously, true or whether this was indeed indicative of what the person engaging in this behavior actually is. I am sure you understand where I am going with this. Thank you!

You have gone from an entertaining yet completely incorrect assumption of HG and I having a relationship to complete clowns pants in believing that the camping comments were real, and showing that you do not have the ability to separate reality from humour. Thanks for the laughs.

Lori, I was not referring to the accusation of NA supposedly having a relationship with HG, but to the ones about NA having priorities in this blog and being HG’s favorite, the proof of this being HG’s invitation to go camping. All these accusations are ridiculous and sound like those of a jealous child.
I know NA is not the sweetest thing. She has highly narcissistic traits which show in some of her comments. So I can understand if she is not someone’s cup of tea (I myself don’t like her sometimes😉). But to make such accusations… I think there are better ways to express one’s anger at someone.

I am always amazed at how many ways the written word can be altered by people applying their own emotional interpretation, although I guess I should not be, as this is what allowed many to interpret the words of their narc into something more palatable and acceptable when they saw the red flags flying and caused them to rationalize and stay.

Ur bubble just burst bc I c right through ur texts – others have too & keep quite. One example is that U guide women to snap out of dreaming & fantasizing about HG Tudor’s seducing voice and yet here u r writing a letter calling him among other things a … sexual benefactor… A Sexual Benefactor to whom? How do u know he is a sexual benefactor any way? U have that kind of insight? That is a very private thing to say w/o first hand knowledge – no pun intended. Here u permit urself to fantasize & describe ur thoughts in this “questionably empathic” letter, yet u swiftly cut other bloggers down for writing similar things in their short comments. NarcAngel’s advice to all is do as I say not as I do. Hypocritical woman.

Snap out of it comment was a looong time ago so someone has been around for awhile but not under the same name lol. Hmm… I wonder why someone would hide under different names on a blog. Glad that I could provide a platform for you to get your vitriol out but now your crazy is showing and you might want to tuck it back in. Seriously. Please seek help.

The operative word is ‘Alleged’. NA referred to HG as an ‘alleged sexual benefactor’. Many narcissists are VERY good in the sexual arena, it is part of the seduction, and a ploy used often to ‘hoover’ a victim back into a relationship with the narcissist.

I agree with K that you should give the book “Sex and the Narcissist” a read. You will find it titillating, shocking, and informative.

Or it will at least give you something else to distort in your childish way. (nudge, nudge, wink, wink, know wot I mean??!!)

The letter was originally posted on January 17, 2018. I thought it was odd that NA would write a letter mainly for HG. The other letters were directed to the narcs they have encounter in their personal life albeit a romantic partner or family member.

“One example is that U guide women to snap out of dreaming & fantasizing about HG Tudor’s seducing voice and yet here u r writing a letter calling him among other things a … sexual benefactor”

I absolutely agree with the above statement. I can be passive aggressive at times and like a child have left comments regarding H.G. and waited for the response. And in true form here comes Captain Save a Narc😂 once she commented she didn’t find any value in my comment. 🤣Here’s and emoji for N.A. It’s unfair we all had to deal with these evil souls as adults and N.A. narc is H.G. well in mind and spirit.

Carry on ladies. H.G. has made it very thay he’s never been involved with his readers and never will.

Yolo
Ah, I was wondering when you would make an appearance. I dont know how you held out so long. Yes, you have been childish and ripped away on occasion and then come back and admit you were off your meds like that excuses you to say whatever you like. And you know very well that I did not say your comment had no value. You have twisted those words to suit your fantasy. I never said that at all. I said that I didnt understand it and asked for clarification but you responded: I’m sorry you didnt find value in my comment. Those were YOUR words and your perception. Do you forget thst comments are on the blog for all to see?Please provide that post. I’m sure you have it in your NA scrapbook.

I have written three letters-all different dynamics of my narc experiences. You are correct that many people have poured out their souls and told horrendous stories and I have read them all. I decided a different focus this time and I didnt expect everyone to find value in it, so I am not disappointed that you dont.

I invite you though to tell me what I have done that has caused you sporadically to take pot shots at me directly and through other peoples posts. Recently I was confused by, and asked what your meaning was behind a poem you posted. I thought you had written it until a subsequent post where you identified that you had not. Your answer to me was that you were sorry I didnt find value in it. I never said I didnt find value-I wanted to understand what you intended to convey. In another example, someone asked me a question and you answered with something about two affairs and a beef with NA. I still dont know what you meant, but it looked like bait so I didnt respond.

I get that Im not your cup of tea and Im ok with that, but youre not making a very good case for yourself. You said it-people show you who they are, believe them. I think youre better than that.

PS.

You are still welcome to provide the post where I said I didnt find value in your comment. I wont spend time looking for that because it doesnt exist. Thanks for coming out though-nice try.

NA, I change my name often. This is Melinda. Primarily I change my name because my exnarc trolls this site. It’s a fact. So I throw him off a bit MAYBE, use a different name usually depending upon how I FEEL at the time, and then I can say what I really feel.

One time he made a comment on this blog and used my name Melinda as the commentator. Spooky huh. He only did it once, but I ‘caught’ it because as far as I know I’m the only Melinda on this blog. He wanted me to get his message becuz NC.

He trolls as its one of his ways of keeping track of me. He’s very good at it. I live knowing exnarc will never leave me alone. Stalker–somehow he always knows where I am, who I’m with, etc. Perhaps he revels in knowing I can no longer trust everyone I meet. His ‘relationships’ only last average 4 months. So when he finds his next victim, I get a reprieve.

He knows about my major depression and PTSD symptoms. I’ve never met someone who wishes me dead before.

What is important to me is no matter what name I use, HG knows it’s me.

And only an empath could, even after horrific experience with a narcissist, see the human and the good qualities inside a narcissist, even while acknowledging their abusive ways, and mirror that back to the narcissist.

They develop a grandiose self-image and need to impress that apon others. When they do not get enough praise they worry that others do not think they are as great as they think they should be seen.

When adult narcissists are ostracized, they show increased
activity in the social-pain area of their brain, yet they claim
not feeling distressed (Cascio, Konrath, & Falk, 2015). Simi-
larly, adult narcissists have elevated levels of the stress-
hormone cortisol, yet they report not feeling stressed (Rein-
hard, Konrath, Lopez, & Cameron, 2012). Adult narcissists
claim having high self-esteem; yet, when pressured to be
honest, they tone down this claim (Myers & Zeigler-Hill,
2012). What narcissists say they feel may not be what they actually feel.

Get over yourself NarcAngel. Nobody is angry with u. Good lord. U write like an infatuated little teenage narcissistic girl & expect everyone to like ur drool?! Angling for IPPS there r we? Get your head out of ur arse.

Oh COME ON. “Mindboggling”? Really? Most here aren’t at the awareness level you are. Otherwise it would be one big HG circle jerk half the time.
I think you didn’t see that coming because you thought everyone was as comfortable as you (and some others) are with the narc-empath dynamic that goes on here, and thought ppl would fangirl out with you.

Poor foresight if you didn’t see the tsunami of defensiveness.

But guess what! Fuck it! Your letter raised awareness on many levels, which is fantastic! We need to check ourselves and take several seats if we think we aren’t all Pro-HG, albeit in different ways and for different reasons

W
The “can you believe it” to K was a joke because she has seen this all before. I did not say that I didnt expect it. The letter has been posted previously (as have all the others) and all of these issues were hashed out then. There is really nothing new here. What is mind boggling is that people claim to read my posts but have never seen the repeated posts where I explain that I am not in love with Tudor, that he does not do things for is because he cares, the ones where I challenge him on issues, and the ones where I support other commenters and denounce narcissists. It is selective reading and applying whatever meaning they want to it and then insisting that they know better than me how I meant it. Even you misinterpreted my saying that its mind boggling that people can still believe that there is anything between HG and I into I did not see it coming.

NarcAngel
Your missive addresses the complexity of the narcissistic dynamic and the ambivalence that surrounds it, and this is clearly demonstrated by your ability to “see” the other side of the coin and recognize both the deficits, as well as, the benefits. Your understanding, empathy and cognitive flexibility underlines your insight and perspective taking skills regarding a disorder that is surrounded by mystery, misconceptions and stigma.

You are correct.
“we’re more alike than we think, in that we’re not the only ones who dont see things as they really are.”

K
Thank you. You understand that I was looking at it from another perspective (I have more than one) in this instance because you have been privy to my other thoughts and behaviours in your time here on the blog. I understand that others may not and if they have come across this letter without that context I could understand a bit more. But stil…… come on, still doesnt warrant this behaviour. I started to wonder if these were empath behaviours, what were their narcissists were like and how did they stay together any length of time? lol. Obviously they feel they can say to me what they wish they could have said to their narc (or did but it didnt take) so if thats therapeutic for them okay-have at it but expect a response. I am not blaming the empath, but someday they will have to get real with themselves about their part in the dance or they will never be able to move on. Thats my view and I am as entitled to it as they are theirs. Thanks for all that you do here to assist others and for your understanding of many viewpoints. You are a great empath.

Here’s my two cents…Why would it even matter if they were? It wouldn’t make a hill of beans difference either way. I understand correcting the inaccuracy of calling NA a narcissist. But whether she and HG are now or ever were involved makes no difference to our learning. I do have to admit, it is entertaining. It’s past my bedtime, yet here I am. I love y’all.

I have K several times but I still do not understand it all. All I can think is someone is jealous of HG and NA “possibly” having a relationship. But I actually think they would make a nice couple. I feel she would be his type because she is fiesty, intelligent, and witty. But then them having a relationship did not come across to me from the letter or from the camping comment. But then what do I know?

I think you are correct; someone is quite jealous of NA and has manufactured a relationship between them. I agree; the letter and the camping comment is not indicative of a relationship occurring or favoritism. HG isn’t NA’s type; he is a narcissist and she isn’t interested in opening that pandora’s box.

Hate and jealousy are for small-minded people. I don’t want to hate or be jealous of anybody. Everyone is imperfect. Everyone has faults. But we all have strengths too. Sometimes while looking at a large sheet of white paper, it is hard not to focus on the tiny black dot in the middle. But I guess we all can at times. If we are looking at other peoples faults and failings then we are not seeing or concentrating on our own. I wish to concentrate on my own, of which I have plenty. I think NA has many admirable qualities about her. I’m not jealous of her nor do I wish to be her. She has a friend in HG for sure, as well as the others here who have stuck by HG from the beginning. I am happy for her and the others as I feel it will benefit HG as a person (as in add to what he has already) as I feel he is learning too. We all are.

Michelle
That comment from HG reminded me of the sort of thing college profs often say when they want the students to analyze a situation and figure out what it means. That always really annoyed me. I equate it with cerebral narcs, who while teaching you want to feel superior and toy with you. When ever a professor using this technique would call on me, it was all I could do to hold in my smart-mouthed, snarky comments. It is an accepted teaching method, though.

Careful HG. This statement to Windstorm comes awfully close to your camping statement to NA. People might think you “really” want her to stay after class. And we all know what that means… doing the sex!

NarcAngel
Well I was raised by a smart-mouthed, sarcastic narcissist, with an extended family full of them! Lol!
And notice I said I choked those comments down. You’re right. I rarely think them and almost always keep them to myself so as not to be hurtful, unless I’m talking to a narcissist. They usually find them amusing.

False statement there by hgt ‘… evaluate what is actually happening..’ u cannot evaluate what is ‘actually’ happening when full facts rnt given. Hg Tudor is holding up a material piece of info which makes a big difference in perception and final conclusion. I come frOm the best position 2 evaluate the situation right now & am seeing the side of hg Tudor others will not c unless they venture out of their polite fluffy cot. I don’t mind. I don’t hate hgt. He does not play a fair game tho but it was expected. Sleep time…

Aunt Clara you should talk to your counselor about projection. This comment shines with it. All of these accusations reflect my exact impression of you. I’ve felt this way about you for a while but never NarcAngel. I even did my best to support you but I have to draw a line. You contradict yourself at every turn. It’s exhausting… I even spent a couple weeks away from the blog hoping you would be gone. Childish. Pining. Obsessed. Accusatory. Bollocks….

But…I understand why you are still permitted here. A shining example indeed. The learning never stops.

I have previously expressed my appreciation for this letter, but feel impelled to reiterate my feelings & particularly as one on the receiving end of the ‘Snap out of it’ replies (which was totally appropriate lol) – I enjoy your insight, experience & humour.

You have given a lot of your time to this blog. I say thank you. I also feel gratitude to many other “regulars” for whom i develop an affinity for just by reading. It seems natural that we would have such feelings of affection for those whose comments resonate w us & even for those whose thought-provoking bravery in sharing deserves recognition too.

Written by unknown person: “I still dont know love, but when I make a choice intellectually and not instinctively not to harm someone, perhaps that is a kind of love in its own way?” This is the mind thought that comes from a narcissistic individual, not an empath; the writer begins to confuse the person the writer is writing about or to and the writer herself/himself. It begins about HG not knowing love and further on the writer appears to get confused and starts writing I when writing about narcissistic characteristics. Then, the writer goes on an egotistical worship rant, Godlike: “So HG………witty, intelligent, malevolent, humorous, thought provoking, manipulating, charming, articulate, scheming, talented, effective, larger than life, dominating, Author, brother, controller, educator, alleged sexual benefactor, Titan, son, ground breaker, …and well this space isnt large enough to list them all” “larger than life” “Titan” and on and on, and there are so many things of praising worship characteristics that the writer could say that there is not enough room. This letter is not written by an empath, a traumatised individual, an abused victim, rather I say it is written by HG himself. I don’t care if an unknown author comes on comment here to claim otherwise, I remain convinced of my impression of this narcissisticly letter.

Wrong. None of these letters are written by me. This letter was written by a reader. I have the evidence which shows that it was, namely the e-mail submitting it to me. You have no evidence supporting your erroneous assertion, merely speculation and that speculation is wrong.

NA, can’t find the camping post, but I, like you, am not a camping girl. Ugh. (maybe too many rain soaked girl scout camping experiences as a youngster…) However, I was reading about “glamping”. That I might try. 🙂

@12345 – a person does not ‘win’ just because he or she received the most comments. This letter by Narcissist-Angel (I’m assuming that’s what Narc-Angel stands for, or is it Narcissist’s Angel?) has received so many comments due to its …. let’s say Complexity. As for suggesting that perhaps some people on here are jealous of NA – sorry but that is so amusing, terribly far-fetched and is something which only a Narcissist would say! That and about ‘winning’. NA has her little fan club on here, that much has been obvious to many of us on Facebook over the past couple of years. Those who applaud her for being ‘strong and opinionated’. Those who attack commenters on her behalf (mob mentality). She claims that this old nugget (this letter of hers) which has resurfaced and caused so many comments is due to people’s anger. LOL. She loves that word. Anger. Everyone who disagrees with her is apparently angry. Or a Narcissist (yep, she has used that term too). She is opinionated – of that there is no doubt. But strong? No! To be strong is to be vulnerable. Being strong takes introspection, not projection. Sadly, this site, although informative and I’ve learnt a lot from HG, is becoming a breeding ground for Narcissists pretending to be Empaths (and attacking true Empaths), BPD’s who clearly do have empathy but who also blame-shift and are quick to anger when criticised (perceived criticism), sycophants quickly jumping on board with comments in an effort to ‘uphold’ the Narcissist’s or BPD’s point of view and to ‘downplay’ the person whose comment goes against the NPD’s or BPD’s worldview. Then there’s the fawning over HG and other Narcs who comment. It’s becoming one big Narc-Fest. That’s all I have to say to you! @HG – as with many who applaud your work and given us invaluable insight, I too am now going to be one of the many who can no longer comment – on anything – on your site. I am not going to read any further comments either. I will read your posts and that’s it. To heal, one must find a group where nasty comments such as “Take your meds” or “You’re obviously jealous” or “LMFAO all those nymph-empaths getting upset……” is not tolerated. I thank you for all that you do, HG – but please understand that those of us wishing to heal at a very deep level, need to surround themselves with others wanting the same thing. Meditation, Mindfulness, Inner Child Healing and working through Shame. None of these things can be achieved on your site (which you know). Your site is like a Step 1 programme with Step 2 being about ‘self’ and ‘healing’ which cannot be obtained as part of the Step 1 programme. It’s a different programme altogether. So goodbye HG, I do wish you well and I look forward to reading your future book on your childhood. Best regards, Survivor.

Thanks for your feedback, Survivor. No one on this blog believes that you will not read posts here anymore. You’re just throwing a fit is all.

I feel badly for you that you believe I thought someone actually “wins” something on this blog. It was a colloquialism that people use sometimes. It is not actually a declaration of a “winner”. For example, “chicken out” is a colloquialism which means to lose your nerve. Usually people who use the phrase “chicken out” don’t mean it literally. There’s also this gem from the south…”throw your ears back and get to eatin!” I don’t use that one because it’s stupid and redneck. That phrase doesn’t literally mean that people throw their ears back because most people don’t have ears like dogs. It just means that it’s time to eat.

I was going to break down all your comments one by one to somehow show you how you are making yourself look but, honestly, it’s too boring to take the time to do it.

Everything you’ve posted in this thread alone shows that you are extremely angry, consider yourself to be a victim and have absolutely zero emotional sobriety. You’ve now accused many people of being a narcissist, including me. I honestly cannot figure out why you’re even here. You’ve read a million times to go no contact with narcissists. Why aren’t you doing that if most of us here are all narcissists?

You owe it to yourself to disengage because your volatile reactions are a tell that you will not be able to tolerate not reading posts or engaging with others when they post. Or you could change your screen name so that you can continue to read and post.

I see your comment as written by an empath who sees that she is not to blame but there is also no point in assigning blame. She has tipped the scales in using logic over emotion to determine why it happened and how best to prevent it from happening again although it has been a painful (and ongoing) process. She sees the futility in staying in perpetual anger by trying to hold the narcissist accountable because he never will and she cant change that, but she can change her own mindset and take her power back.
And you have.
Way to go.

12345
I am amazed at the ET! I have been here over a year and there hasn’t been any untoward behavior on this blog between HG or NA, or any other blogger for that matter, that I can see. NA’s letter is certainly generating lots of traffic which is providing us with an excellent opportunity to learn.

StrongerWendy
Haha. Glamping would not be without its problems. I have visions of wine not being maintained at the proper temperature and hair straighteners simultaneously being turned on and knocking out the grid. Then its all just The Purge lol.

Sinister and suspect? What is being considered sinister and suspect ? If she was involved with HG which no one has any way of knowing and shouldn’t really care, I’d just call it stupidity but sinister and suspect? I don’t see that

Okay HG, You say my impression is wrong and that you did indeed get this letter from a reader. You may be telling the truth, but how would I know? Understand, HG, that I know I can never ever believe what a narcissistic sociopath says. I know never to trust the words or actions of one you predators, no matter where I come in contact with you, there will always be some form of deception, manipulation, etc, even in revealing what you are here, because I don’t trust you. I comprehend that it’s difficult not to talk personally. I see the letter as a narcissistic sociopath would see himself, but that could be coincidental.

You say you do not trust what I, as a narcissistic sociopath has to say to you. That is a general proposition as opposed to a statement based on evidence.
Have you any evidence I have ever lied to you? No. I do not mean a suspicion, but actual evidence – you do not have any. Why ? Because I have not lied.

Let’s go further. How much of what I have written on the blog and in my books resonates with you as replicating your own experiences? Maybe not everything, but a substantial part. That is evidence and shows I have not lied.

Let’s go further again. How many times have you read on the blog from many different readers that they identify with what I have written as being very much similar to their own experiences. Many times – again that shows I have not lied and is evidence.

The rules mean I do not lie here.
The simple dynamics of the professionalism I demonstrate shows I do not lie here.
The explanation with regard to fuel and how I gather it means I have no need to lie or manipulate here.
This is all evidence.

I have the e-mail which submitted this letter. It came from a reader. You have not seen the e-mail, but I have. I have the evidence, you have no evidence at all to support your proposition that I wrote this letter. You made an unsubstantiated assertion and it is wrong.

Apply logic as I have done above and you will identify that on the evidence I am telling the truth.
This is what I refer to when I move to correct inaccuracies.

HG, I can take your word for it that it was not written by you, and yet still have an impression that the piece leaves me with, kind of like what it makes me think of, or reminds me of, such as how a narcissistic sociopath would see himself. That would have probably been a better way to see it or think of it, since that’s what came to me. Yes, your writings describe some of my experiences, emotional, etc, except my physical abuse was far more than what you get into on your blog, as far as I have read. I`m done replying. Have a good one.

WhatsThatNow – don’t bother. He will do anything to protect himself & NarcAngel. Some special protection and priority is afforded to this lady. Camping anyone? Or maybe more NA brown nosing Hg Tudor. Puke..puke puke.The letter itself is a total love fest & I have the same questions U have about the characteristics of the person writing it. She is angling for IPPS & in the same breath tells some other bloggers here to keep their mitts off & not get their panties wet & in knot over hg Tudor because as they are so ever reminded by her – he is after all a narcissist and they better slap out of that infatuation. And yet this letter shows her own infatuation to the Nth degree. She is a hypocrite.

Interesting.
The failure to respond to a logical argument by advancing unsubstantiated allegations is deflection and projection. Let’s see some evidence from you newly arrived Aunt Clara.

1. Please provide evidence of the special protection and priority that is afforded to NA.
2. Please provide evidence of more NA brown nosing HG Tudor.
3. Please substantiate how the writer of the letter is apparently angling for IPPS and in doing so, bear in mind the following facts
a. The writer does not know my identity;
b. The writer lives several thousand miles away from me
c. The writer has no way of knowing who I am or of contacting me in a private capacity
4. Please provide evidene where NA has told other readers to “keep their mitts off”
5. Please explain how the writer is infatuated with me – ensure you refer to all communications evinced by the writer on the blog to ensure a balanced picture of the interaction.

Easy to fling around unsubstnatiated rubbish, but let’s see you answer the above questions properly.

Where did you get “lovefest” out of this letter?
I also am trying to figure out how you came to this conclusion some relationship is going on between them from a camping trip comment.

Last time I knew one could be invited on a camping trip and it NOT MEAN A DAMN THING.

Your comments make you look foolish.

I have seen many things here, Narc Angel being accused of being a Lieutenant being HG, and now going for IPPS.

Past experience has shown me when someone starts projecting false testimonies it say much about them. Many have been jealous of Narc Angel, I can see why she is a strong, beautiful and opinionated woman. Yet find your own inner strength and stop trying to sling your mud upon another to feel good about yourself.

HG
I was just wondering the purpose that anyone would think that you were protecting me. From what? For what purpose? How? Why? If I felt I needed protection I would just leave the blog. I am a toaster to you like everyone else. We all know narcissists do not care about anyone but themselve because you have hammered that point home repeatedly. This bewilders me.

What’s that now,
Granted I came late to this debate, but you have NarcAngels assertion that she wrote this letter. She’s been here on the blog for over three years and if you’ve read all her posts, it’s obvious she is not HG and is not a narcissist.

Btw – the “egotistical worship rant” was comprised of words that have been used to describe HG in many posts by other than me (as well as me) over the time I have been reading his works (here and on other social media). I included both the (perceived) good and the bad. Sure enough people sought out the good ones, conveniently ignoring the not so flattering to make their case. Manipulating, scheming, dominating, controller seemed to fall away magically from the page. That is being selective and unfair. On the other hand can you really say that he does not come across as witty, intelligent, and humorous to many whether you like him or not?

This letter does not appear to be written be an empathic person. Or, perhaps one who is confused about narcissistic sociopaths and the nature of this horrendous evil. Narcissists are not a good force in the world; imagine the world without narcissists, what a beautiful world it would be if nobody had this condition.

Incorrect. The individual is empathic but applies that empathy in a particularly controlled manner, as opposed to throwing it around liberally. I appreciate from your posts under repeatedly different names that you have a particular dislike for my kind, you are, of course, perfectly entitled to have such a view, but it impacts upon an objective appraisal and this is demonstrated in this instance.

I love the ‘imagine a world without narcissists’ scenarios. You can imagine anything you like but then theres reality, so I’d rather imagine a world where we learn to protect ourselves while existing with them because they are very much here and not going away.

Now HG, You don’t expect me to write my actual name when you are anonymous also, surely not. Yes, correct, I do not “like” narcissistic sociopaths, true that. I would suggest that most victims of these predators don’t like them. Or, maybe I am the only one. Color me odd. My view is that of an empath, and as of one who has direct knowledge first hand through experience. Do the other comments reflect people who like predators? You`’re reply is a bit confusing.

No, of course I do not expect you to use your real name although I do know what it is – worry not, it is treated confidentially. What I meant is that you have used 25 different user names on this blog which is rather interesting.

HG, You say you know what my name? What the hell is going on? I am not using something that you should know who I am. The email is not to me. And you say you know my real name! What the hell is going on with your website?!? Nobody is safe! Don`t worry I won”t be back. And you announce this on your website. Geeze, I won”t comment any more, threats are not necessary, nor revealing. Holy . . . . !

There was no threat. I know your name because you used your name yourself. I did not look it up or investigate it. If you use your real name on this blog, then oddly enough I am going to know what it is aren’t I? Everybody is safe because they have the foresight not to use their own name, unlike you. It is your error but as I explained, it will not be misused or used against you because that is against the rules and I have no need to. I am highlighting your own error.

HG, I never used my name on your site from this tech I now use, that was a couple years ago and from a laptop, and I got rid of everything that was associated with online media and my name. So, no I don’t know how you know who I am, and yes, I feel very threatened at this time. I will do away with this piece of tech, and will not return to your site ever again. So yes, I take it as a threat. Goodbye. What the hell is going on! How! Goodbye.

There is no threat. You have used your name on this site from your tech. If you would like to e-mail me, I shall explain to you why this is the case so you can understand and realise I am merely pointing it out to you as opposed to intending to do anything adverse with it. I have no need nor desire to do so.

HG, your responses remind me so much of my interactions with the ex narc. His obsession with evidence. People love to challenge narcissist. If they blow up your page with emotional and challenging responses, that’s enough evidence of the impact of your work.

HG, I disagree with your statement: “I appreciate from your posts…that you have a particular dislike for my kind.” I gather from the repeated posts that this individual has a particular dislike of you IN PARTICULAR HG, not ‘your kind’ in general, something along the lines of wanting to attract you and your attention. Everything this person posts on all avenues (not just here) is a projection and reveals some very disturbing things about them, not you, and not NA. I’m so glad both yours and NA’s identities are protected because this shit has gotten out of hand! I’m talking John Hinckley Jr., Rebecca Schaeffer, ‘The Fan’ out of hand. I find the energy and time spent by this individual in creating multiple profiles, etc. so disturbing. I’m not judging. The individual is clearly in need of some psychiatric care!

This whole post was awesome though. NA, I dig your letter, I didn’t agree with some points but I have no vested interest in it so, I won’t elaborate.

This made me LOL all day, at the Narc-Empath deal.
Laughing is right up there with multi orgasmic elite narcsex for me, so basically y’all made my day great!

Ps HG was listening to one of your videos the other night and you said;
“we will say that you are spreading lies (also known as the truth) – about us….”
And you dropped your voice to inject the bracketed sentence and I lost my shit laughing.

I do so enjoy your videos, when is the next one? I’ve rewatched all of them numerous times, I’m itching for a new one.

Anyhow, great thread all, here’s to keeping that ET under control for another 24

I only knew that person’s name because they used it on the blog. If you do not use your name here I cannot know it. Ultimately I am not interested. Yes, I know if someone has a consult (but some people use pseudonyms when they do which is fine) and consultations are covered by confidentiality so if I do know that person’s name, I do not do anything with it.

HG
I have seen on more than one occasion that you have advised a person that they have used their real name on the blog and did they want it pulled, changed, or left alone, so we know that it has happened. One person said to leave it as she had no problem with it.

Oh come on, people themselves are narcissistic, it’s a hominoid trait. The question is more, what’s considered normal or abnormal to a society’s values – or what causes harm – and this is an area of conflict and shifting perspectives and awareness. Empathy isn’t separate from these social moral and values, which everyone interprets differently.

That’s why humanity is such a mess!

If you don’t like NA, then you don’t like her political world-view, or you’re projecting something. But because there are people here with many different world-views, we can all help with sharing information and offering perspectives that will speak to those views.

There is no wrong or right on this blog, that’s one of the plusses of a low-empath zone. Considering the theme of the blog is well: Actual Evil —and even then HG felt that evil might be in danger of upstaging him.

Would this be a cult irl? One man, hundreds of women, hell yeah. I wouldn’t attend that workshop out in Nevada and drink the koolaid.

This letter was ‘out-there’ but i’m glad that everything can be out there so we can make our observations and question how we interpret narcissism vs empathy. Which is pretty darn fascinating.

We can now also write our very own letters to HG if we want to, the sky’s the limit! Or we can use a letter to talk about some issue we have and get feedback from readers… awesome.

This is not said in any anger and I’ve toyed with saying it previous, but since you brought it up…… I find a lot of your posts “out there” but I just figure I dont understand them and leave them to those they resonate with (and some have acknowledged they do) So youre right in that it is good to have a mixture of viewpoints.

Another good point you made was in relation to the theme of the blog. You cited EVIL and that was the logo previous (hence why it was used for my letter back when it was first posted). The site is narcsite.com but The banner reads KNOWING THE NARCISSIST and not KNOWING THE EMPATH.

NA, we couldn’t be more different. But my posts are unusual, i’m a quirky person. I’d say —sometimes i manage to ‘get it’
—and other times i’m still processing and experimenting with ideas. So i know what you mean. I am as interested in *knowing the dynamic between narcs and ‘empathetics’, as well as the narcs. I read science articles too and talk to different sources, i’m an academic —despite my whimsical commentary. My feelings about all this however are more personal because of my history, i feel i have a lot to learn about how it has affected me.

This post was just my sense of humour, i’m more playful than i seem, but internet doesn’t give a full context.

Narcissists and empaths are human evolution resulting from years of trauma. They serve a purpose. The empath’s strength is emotional range and is able to focus outward. “I’ve been wounded and hurt by the world so I will heal others.” The Narcissist’s strength is logic with limited emotional range and bonding ability “Ive been wounded and hurt by the world…so im gonna focus on me”

It’s just a letter, people. There is a ridiculous amount of energy behind the posts that disagree. When I have that much energy in a response I have to look at why it has pushed my buttons so dramatically.

I, being an empath, have a tremendous amount of responsibility for what has happened in the relationship with the narcissist. I was so manipulative in my relationship and spent an embarrassing amount of time trying to bend him to my will. I didn’t know what I was matched with but it doesn’t excuse my manipulative tactics.

Putting NA on the cross isn’t justified. Empaths are complicit in what has happened to them even though abuse is never ever justified. How many of us left the minute we knew we were ensnared by the narc I wonder? I have a feeling the people who did are in the minority.

If a child has a narcissistic parent and grows up to be either an empath with weak boundaries or a narcissist prone to victimising others due to a lack of secure attachment to it’s parent, I fail to see how that child is “complicit” in what has happened to them. This is where most of these personality disorders begin.

Awareness of their own faulty emotional thinking does not just “happen” for these people. Therefore, holding them accountable for how they relate to people later in life is not really fair. Just saying.

WiserNow, I think your point is valid. I was absolutely an empath with weak boundaries and it’s been hard as hell to develop them without feeling extreme guilt. I’m getting so much better though.

When I used the word complicit I meant that I, at the recognition of abuse, had a part in the wrongdoing against myself. I was aware that boundaries would be part of treating myself well and for a long time I insisted on staying involved with parents, boyfriends, friends (all narcs) regardless of the damage to myself.

I’m just big on not allowing myself to ignore my responsibility in my own circumstances (if any) because then I find myself too easily sliding into the victim seat. Yes, empaths are victimized. No question about it. But we (I) don’t have to be forever.

And WiserNow, I wasn’t thinking of children, I should have, but I wasn’t. I grew up in that kind of home. I was thinking more about my last dance with the narc a few years ago and knowing I was playing with fire.

It’s okay 12345, I understand what you mean both in your initial comment and in this one. There are so many perspectives and angles to all of this. Even if a commenter has the best intentions and open-mindedness, whatever they say can be misconstrued or interpreted in a negative way. It’s all good.

I think that awareness of what’s actually happening is the thing that creates a turning point or catalyst. Then, acting on that awareness is the crucial factor that changes things. It’s all a process and it’s not exactly an easy ride lol 🙂

Wisernow
HG had a narcissistic parent and grew up to be a narcissist prone to others due to a lack of secure attachment. So its your view that its not fair to hold him accountable to how he relates to people later in life (now) due to lack of awareness of his faulty emotional thinking? Am I reading that correctly?

In a nutshell, yes. However, I need to elaborate and give you more information. It’s not as simple and straightforward as simply giving you a yes or no answer.

My views stem from a very interesting article I read recently about the theory of attachment and in particular, insecure attachment in very young children. Briefly, insecure attachment with primary care-givers can make small children display:
– anxious (ambivalent)-avoidant behaviour when relating to others; or
– dismissive-avoidant behaviour when relating to others.
The above behaviours don’t just “happen” randomly. They are the direct result of certain consistent types of treatment the child experiences from the primary caregiver(s).

When such children were studied at play in normal situations, their behaviour when paired with other children who were 1) securely attached 2) dismissive-avoidant or 3) anxious-avoidant showed some specific results and tendencies.

The dismissive-avoidant child when paired with an anxious-avoidant child was more likely to victimize the anxious-avoidant child and overstep boundaries. Meanwhile, the anxious-avoidant child was more likely to allow their boundaries to be overstepped.

Without going into copious amounts of detail here in this comment, the findings pointed to the dismissive-avoidant child becoming more “narcissistic” in behaviour.

To answer your question properly, when a person has awareness of their emotional thinking being faulty, you could assume that they would then take active steps to remedy those faults. In the case of narcissists, it is well known that they are very resistant to accepting that they have any faults to begin with. This is part of the way a dismissive-avoidant person’s emotional thinking works. They create a shield around themselves resisting any notion that they are at fault or that they are wrong, weak or needy in any way. Their way of adapting to insecure attachment is to become self-sufficient and unreceptive to changing their behaviour.

So, you could say that as a child, HG could not be held accountable for a lack of secure attachment. However, after gaining awareness of his own faulty emotional thinking later in life, he “could” take steps to improve his thinking and thereby be accountable for it. Being a narcissist though, he does not see it as faulty because that would imply he was “wrong” or “weak” and a narcissist will not admit that, and so will not take the steps to change.

In my earlier comments, I think I said that awareness is the turning point or catalyst for any recognition of accountability and change in behaviour.

My views are based on reading one particular article, so I don’t claim to be an expert at all or to have any factual answers. I find it very interesting though, and I would like to learn more about it.

Their resistance to acceptance of faults is the essence of their Narcissism. Narcissism is who they are. Narcissism is their identity. It is not like other mental illness where it comes down over a victim like a fog and witybthe right meds they are cured. It’s interwoven into the very being of the narcissist. If you were to try and unweave it, you would be unweaving their entire being and sense. Awareness will never translate into healing because without the narcissism they will cease to exist. It’s every fiber of their being

Lori,
I agree with you when you say..
“Their resistance to acceptance of faults is the essence of their Narcissism”. Yes, they have a resistance to acceptance of faults. I have no argument with that. This “resistance” stands in the way of them having any wish or capacity to change.

I find that your following line is not fully proven in a concrete or scientific way though…
“Awareness will never translate into healing because without the narcissism they will cease to exist.”

Yes, the resistance is very, very strong and seemingly “impossible” to break through. Will they actually “cease to exist” though without the narcissism? Who can be sure of that? Who can prove that?

“Yes, the resistance is very, very strong and seemingly “impossible” to break through. Will they actually “cease to exist” though without the narcissism?”

They “feel” like they will cease to exist; that is their perspective. Intellectually they might realize they will not “cease to exist” but most don’t have the insight.

Well, at least I’m sure “intellectually,” HG knows he wouldn’t cease to exist but he likes himself just the way he is. And, intellectually, most of us know we should “GOSO” but then we all know how that story often goes…

WhoCares
popcorn-fest? Thanks for the laugh! In anticipation of the potential of another NA letter being posted, I have doubled my shares in popcorn in the New York Shock (appalling behavior) Exchange.

No problem, K…and I LOL’d at your going ‘incognito’ – that was awesome! I would have commented on that and more on this thread but I have an upcoming interaction with my narc that I have to prepare for mentally, plus there was just so much emotion here that I had to detach at times as well.
Good luck with the ‘Shock Exchange!” 😉

Thank you Survivor. I agree with your views as well. Many of the comments here simply assume that there is an equal power dynamic between narcissists and empaths. Until true awareness happens and the empath is “awake” to the illusions the narcissist has manipulated them with, the power dynamic is very unequal.

Narcissists want power and have a relentless drive to achieve it. They will strive to outmaneuver anyone who stands in their way to achieve power and control, even if they have to lie, scheme, manipulate, deflect and deny to do it. Empaths don’t think like this. If anything, empaths want to “repair” situations in an effort to create better relationships where the “power” is more evenly spread. They have a conscience, so they don’t lie and manipulate. Before “awakening” an empath’s innate qualities actually make them “trust” the narc and give him/her the benefit of the doubt, because they simply don’t believe or accept that anyone can be that ruthless.

Wiser Now – You’re a true Empath. Yes, Empaths want to repair situations, they have a conscience and try not to lie and manipulate. An Empath is only ever interested in getting to the truth. They’re not interested in gossip or innuendo or deflecting etc. As for what you wrote in your last paragraph – Yes, absolutely! We stay because we give them the benefit of the doubt (again and again) and not because they had something we wanted on an emotional level (as a person on this site strongly believes which is actually a form of victim blaming). Have you read Awakened Empath? If not, I think you’d love it. Old Souls (by the same author) is another good one. I’m just waiting for my comment to Narc Angel to appear and then I’m unsubscribing Once you know, you go. Get out, stay out – as in: as much as I appreciate HG’s insight, this site is becoming more of a narc-fest than an educational site, so I’m getting out. I’m also co-writing the latest volume on stories from Survivors (this one is about NPD Families) and I need to feel grounded and meditate for a few days before commencing. I wish you so much love and light and I’m excited for you – you’re an awakened empath! Yay! <3 Take good care.

Thank you Survivor. I relate to what you say and I think you feel the same way as me about many things. If you feel that this blog is not giving you what you want and need, then feel free to “Get Out Stay Out” and all the best to you. Take care and pursue what you feel are the right things for you.

Please know that I for one would like you to stay though, and continue to provide your views. Empaths are really needed in places like this, I feel. There is a lot of narcissistic energy, I agree, and it’s often directed into black and white thinking by some and a commitment to remaining closed-minded, judgemental and inflexible in a bid to protect pride and ego. As empaths, we have the view (at least I do) that we are all connected and none of us are perfect and it doesn’t really serve anyone to remain “stuck”.

I wish you love and light too and all the best with whatever you decide to do <3 Please feel free though, to change your mind and comment again. You have people here who understand you 🙂 xxx

I haven’t really weighed in yet but if anyone is still reading, I actually agree with both NA and Windstorm/Survivor. I hope nothing I write gets misconstrued and I hope I am not misunderstanding anything I have read. I’ve been very confused about my own role in the narc dynamic and am willing to take some of the blame as well as spread it around!! Here – have some!! Mainly what has helped me is reading this site – mostly HG’s posts but also others’ comments.

It seems that missing from the discussion of who is ‘right’ is the acknowledgement that ‘Empaths’ and ‘Narcissists’ do not come in two flavours only. There are a variety of empaths – some with strong narc traits and resilience – and of narcissists – some weak ones. This means, at least for me, that the dynamic can be quite complex and the interactions/power can ebb and flow. In the end, the narc usually wins because he doesn’t care, but that doesn’t meant all empaths are completely without agency or will.

Some of the discussion refers to narcissistic abuse and recovery. HG can instruct us in how the narcissist thinks but HG is not a therapist. He tells us to get out and stay out but he cannot tell us how to heal except by giving us the clarity we need to understand. That is half the battle – for me it was the whole battle. Maybe others need more – I know others have been through more than I have – but not all of us do. For many of us, the truth is all we need to heal and move on.

HG does not write the empath’s perspective. He writes the narc’s perspective. We therefore get more of a sense of the narc’s sense of self than we do of the empath’s sense of self from him. The empath’s view comes more from the comments but the range is wide because empaths are a complex bunch, and the comments generally not as structured or clear as HG’s posts because empaths engage in emotional thinking. I think it was brave of NA to put her empath’s perspective out there.

From my understanding, a super empath could very well tilt the power dynamic with, say, a lesser narc. By the same token, an SE could admire the qualities of a mid-ranger or greater. So NA’s letter resonates with me, maybe because I do fall in the SE category (not sure). With half my brain I did stay (or return) and admire my mid-ranger. I used to refer to him as ‘the superhuman’ before I knew what he was or, for that matter, what I was. I thought he was brilliant and I admired that. I thought he took risks and I admired that. I thought his thinking was unmuddled, and I admired that. I thought he was the calmest person I had ever met, and I admired that. I can see how a narc’s traits can do damage not just to individuals but to the world (witness Trump) but I can also see how a narc’s traits can do good (e.g. a surgeon). Like anyone else, a narc might have options (might or might not) and can make choices. A narc is not JUST his narcissism.

But to get back to my main point, while part of me admired my narc, part of me also knew what he did was abusive and ‘wrong.’ I won’t go into the whole saga of how I figured it out, managed to escape or what my thoughts were. Suffice it to say that it took some distance, which I engineered because I have agency, in order to begin to understand what I was dealing with. I did not find this site until after I escaped (and it took four more months to completely disengage).

In the end, that side of me won out, I got out, and I’ve stayed out, but it was a process – not black or white, not in or out. And just because I escaped the abuse doesn’t mean I cannot see the attraction or take responsibility for my role. It also doesn’t mean that I think he won. I actually think I won. I sometimes want power and control too. I won’t go as far as a narc to get it but I will go pretty far if someone has dissed me, and he did, and so yes, I went pretty far to take my power back.

To loop back to the beginning of this, it is possible for an empath to have conflicting feelings and thoughts. It is possible to see both sides. It is possible to be weak at some points and to be powerful at others. It is possible to both admire the narc and to think that he is a terrible person. Don’t we all do the same to ourselves?

SMH
I agree with Windstorm; your explanations of how you feel about your role in the entanglement and how you see your narc are very well articulated. I feel similarly when I reflect back on my own entanglement.

Thank you WhoCares and Windstorm. I must admit that I was confused about what the issues were (the thing about NA/HG, just a distraction from the main arguments) but I also held back because I have learned from this site how NOT TO panic and react so quickly.

Personally, and I have said this before, I think it is damaging to give the narc all the power and to consider ourselves helpless ’empaths’ (even the words narc and empath suggest a knife and a wet noodle, right?). I never went NC post-escape, for instance. I decided it was better to have him hanging there so he could see that I wasn’t reacting and that I meant what I said. I did react for awhile but I also held my ground and he has now faded into the background. He could reappear but if he does I know where to come first now, and that is here.

NA, I am sorry, but I would be able to make this cold hard logic decisions within seconds too. And I am an empath, although I know, that many at this blog do not think that. There is no : empathic people cannot do this or that and only narcissistic people are able to decide hard and tough.

A pure psychopath or a full blown narcissist would not care about his own brother or the baby. He would only rescue himself.
That is the fault in your empathic thoughts.

A narcissist would probably save the baby, but only for his reputation and glory. He would decide within seconds, whether a rescue of someone else would help him to reach his own goals or not. If it would not help him, he would let die the baby and his brother (if there are no witnesses) and would make a big show to the world how sad he is….

Mona, i agree with you. Empathy is selective, we can make rational decisions within the scope of a situation, there are also empathic surgeons.

Actually, the history of a discipline is an interesting one – the predominance of high-profile low-empath surgeons comes less from the inherent demands of the entire practice and more from it’s origins: surgeons were, unlike academic doctors of medicine, barbers and henchmen who had the physical strength to do a quick bone-hacking job before there was anesthetic. These men (as they were) later became the surgeons of a formalised practice who then hire people who are “like them”. True study! Then you get the top-field celebrity surgeons who compete with each other – it’s more about power than the patients, but this competition can spark markets for technical ingenuity. So there is a plus-side to that. However, there’s also a growing number of patient law suits due to the false expectations of surgery, or unnecessary surgery (i dated an npd orthopaedic surgeon!) – and lack of empathic communication, surgery is always traumatic and healing is also psychological. More women in the field now, have changed the attitudes of the practice as well.

Let’s be real: power and desire are very linked, but we should recognise that this is all more complex than empathics are slaves to over-emotional thinking and callousness is some kind of magical superpower – while recognising that it can have a place and humanity has a spectrum. We also need to mediate all this and not let callousness and power-obsessions take over.

I’d feel better about this if people —in gerenal, weren’t cultivating cultural narcissism and more likely to enable them than really help them – by refusing to reward them for bad behaviour and scapegoating the victims. Because power can be an addiction, associated with primal survival – that affects everyone differently, not just low-empaths.

/iroll, I agree with you in nearly all parts. Especially, that we cannot allow narcissistic people to be rewarded for bad behaviour.

Lately I made a discovery, which scares me a lot. I have a lot to do with refugees and I allow them to talk freely. And they do. They do talk honestly about their wishes, needs,dreams and the way to get what they want. More than half of them are people, who believe in laws, justice and hard work. They help each other, no matter, from which country they come. They see a lot of importance in helping and understanding each other despite all cultural differences. So many different languages! But there are some of them, who told that they want to be rich some day, no matter, which way they have to take. They told me seriously that they adore people like Pablo Escobar. (I think, I wrote his name wrong, but you know, whom I mean.) They seem to be empathic too, but only to their families and their friends. To become rich is so important for them, that they have no conscience to get what they want even in a very criminal way. It is not the gossip of young people, who talk a lot of nonsense. They made a conscious decision after a long period of thinking how to see the world. They come from poor countries and they come from countries where the fittest wins. And they made the decision to be a winner now, which means for them to become rich, no matter, which way…
I have seen no ! usual narcissistic behaviour but an extreme coldness to the rights of other people except friends.. At the moment there is a very hard discussion between all refugees, which way is the right way to follow. They all “fight” for their wordview with a lot of passion.
And the odd thing about it: they talk about it with rational arguments and treat each other with a lot of respect. Both sides try to persuade the other one. I really hope, that the majority wins. .

Mona, thanks for sharing that and i really admire that work. Well, refugees are just people. So they run the whole spectrum of political views and personalities, the whole situation of being a refugee means that you lose your home and political rights, which just shouldn’t happen to a population, but it does in increasingly massive numbers. I feel it’s better to address the causes of poverty and violence than view refugees as all the same kind of people. For instance, American made and sold guns make up 70% of the guns being used by gangs in Central America, which makes them more powerful than the local police. That, along with a dysfunctional job market and family networks in the USA – is the push-pull cause of families fleeing.

Trump (a narcissist) said that their journey through Mexico was like “a walk through Central park”. I can’t even believe the Jacket logo Melania wore… The reality is – they are constantly under threat of murder, extortion and kidnapping, women and children are especially vulnerable. They deserve compassion, but any longer-term solution has to be built on fairer global market deals with poorer countries and heavy restrictions on the weapons market – but conservatives don’t want to hear that, even though they don’t want to host refugees or spend crisis money. The trouble with conservative thinking is that it looks at short-term solutions from a direct causality perspective and not longer-term systemic problems. There are protests against the financial loses of Brexit too.

Ethics and politics are separate—politics is always about the group, while ethics are about universal ‘transcendent’ values, like compassion. They don’t mix easily, we just like to think they do.

There is another point you might be implying and if so —I agree with it and it’s this: narcissism comes from a primitive urge to escape life struggles by winning at all costs, without the ‘luxrury’ of higher values. Humans have lived through histories of poverty and violence, this affects them genetically. Survival of the group or the individual over others is one way to deal with harsh life circumstances. It’s a basic kind of instinct.

We will always be a mixture of evolved and less evolved ‘types’. That’s what’s so hard about all this. I would like ethics to rule over politics and for humanity to evolve. I don’t believe that our current leaders can really deal with current complexities, they are just stuck in an older paradigm. We are all stuck in ‘history’ because of them, when we need to be addressing problems now with fresh perspectives.

Mona
Yes you and I both have narcissistic traits and have both been taken to task for them. We have also agreed on some points and disagreed on others. Thank you for acknowledging that I do have empathic thoughts. I do understand that narcissists do things that benefit them and not because they care about others and a lot of it is only to bolster the facade, but we can and do benefit all the same sometimes.

NA, I did not answer until now because I felt overwhelmed by all those answers I had and have to read as a reaction to your letter. A lot to think about and a lot of discussion caused by an honest letter. Therefore I do not want to write now. I need time to sort things out for me. . But I wanted you to see I read your comment and appreciate it.

There is no situation where you have to murder a school of children to save a population, security risks on that scale involve more geopolitical complexity. I am sure they mean, those ‘foreign children’ because that wouldn’t be acceptable in a western society.

This is a fantasy about showing how much amorality a person ‘with empathy’ can take in order to be special enough for the low-empath’s consideration. The focus on hypothetical life vs death situations shows that it’s driven by an admiration for power.

There are many high-functioning npd and low-empathy people in society, James Fallon is an interesting case. They get positive-fuel from their work and social status which others can benefit from. There are also bad people and low-functioning criminals with this condition.

“There is no situation where you have to murder a school of children to save a population, security risks on that scale involve more geopolitical complexity. I am sure they mean, those ‘foreign children’ because that wouldn’t be acceptable in a western society.”

It hasn’t happened on this scale yet in western society. Killing children thou is acceptable in western society.

Empaths don’t demand others to bend to their will. Neither do Empaths need Narcissists for them to be able to shine their own light. If Empaths needed Narcissists, there would be no such thing as Narcissistic abuse. There would be no need for therapy for PTSD. There is transformational value in HG’s posts and much can be learnt, but to state that Empaths need Narcissists is not only potentially damaging, but it also goes against everything HG writes about, including NO CONTACT and how to avoid a potential hoovering. An Empath didn’t write this letter. Being Empathic does not make one an Empath!

An inverted narcissist is merely an extreme Codepebdent. Codependents are very much like narcissists. The wound is the same. It’s just that the Codependents authentic true self has remained in tact allowing them empathy where as a Narcissists is true self is is so hidden it’s dead for all intents and purposes.

Narcissists and Codepebdents choose each other because there is a familiarity that they find in each other. They seem like each other’s other half

After reading your comment I googled several sites and researched inverted narcissism and codependency. What I found was as follows:

An inverted narcissist is someone who has dependent personality disorder. They seek out narcissists on purpose to fulfill a need. They crave narcissists and ONLY narcissists. They can not stop being an inverted narcissist.

Codependents don’t have a personality disorder. Codependency is a behavioral and emotional condition that a person has learned from being in an abusive situation. A codependent can change and stop being codependent with counseling and personal growth.

Bottom line seems to be:
Inverted narcissists are always codependent, but codependents are not necessarily inverted narcs.

They are not the same. You can say that an inverted narc is an extreme form of codependent, but you shouldn’t confuse this with regular codependents.

I should have looked farther into it before bed last night.
What thou is the difference between a BPD and a codependent, BPD isn’t called an inverted narcissist yet have many narcissistic traits? They manipulate and control to.

That is correct. I am Codependent but not an inverted Narcissist however, I do have many Narcissistic traits. I will suddenly bore of a person or a relationship and it will happen out of the blue. I also have a lot of control issues. I am not a dependent type except with a Narcissist In fact I tend to make people more dependent on me that way I control everything, but I will also resent at times that people are so dependent on me. This mostly shows up at work. I also don’t work at my full potential because I like to be the best and sometimes moving up means you aren’t the best for awhile. So sometimes I choose not to advance when I should. I will also acquiesce to a Narcissist not out of meekness but in attempt to control him or his reactions and get the response I want

I have been professionally diagnosed and been thru therapy. Is it curable ? They say so, but I am not of the opinion it is. I believe the symptoms are manageable but it’s always with you. It’s a part of your personality and who you are the same way Narcissism is.

I am aware and I am better but I am not cured. Imo once a Codependent always a Codepebdent although the shrink would disagree with me.

That is so funny you say that because when I landed in therapy I was comvinced I had BPD. The therapist said repeatedly Lori YOU ARE NOT BPD. I have examined you thoroughly and you are not. You are a moderate Codependent who laid down with a NPD/BPD and got up with fleas.

BPD is an emotional dysregulation disorder the problem is that so many of the cluster Bs have comornid Pd’s but one is almost always predominant

But you are right a severe Codepebdent can look very much like Bpd. The reason these things all look the same is that they originate from the same childhood wounds and they are just different manifestations of it

Survivor
Sorry to disappoint you but an empath did write this letter.
Question: If empaths dont get anything out of being with narcs (I dont say need) why do they get ensnared in the first place? and why do they stay (sometimes for years) trying to work things out when they know it is unhealthy and abusive? You dont need the label of narcissist to know when a relationship is unhealthy.

“Being Empathic does not make one an Empath!
Really? I dont think you thought that one through in your anger.

@ Narc Angel – no need to be sorry for disappointing me because rest assured you didn’t. To answer your question “If Empaths don’t get anything out of being with narcs (I don’t say need) why do they get ensnared in the first place?” here is my answer: We cross paths with Narcissists every day, unaware of what they are. That’s how we become ensnared. By not being aware of their existence. As for why they stay (sometimes for years) trying to work things out when they know it is unhealthy and abusive – a better question to ask that person would be “What was the abusive person saying and doing to stop the abused person from leaving? Were they controlling the finances? Were there children involved? Would leaving lead to homelessness? Were there threats to harm? Did the abused person become so very ill due to increasing amounts of gaslighting to the point whereby the abused lost his/her sense of identity?” I could go on. There are so many reasons as to why an abused person stays. Some don’t even recognise it as abuse until they finally do leave (or are discarded). I’ve been targeted by a male narc (intimate partner abuse) and a female narc (for financial gain) – but the narc / empath dynamic actually began in my childhood. I was raised by Narcissists, thereby conditioned to believe that I was not good enough and not lovable. This set me up to cross paths with Narcissists in my adulthood. Now that I’m aware, I still come across them – but I am careful not to become ensnared / entangled with them. As for my stating that being empathic does not make one an Empath – I stand by that. Most people in this world are empathic – but only a small percentage are Empaths. If everyone were either Narcs or Empaths, you’d have to say that everyone in this world has been or will be targeted, when that simply is not true. Narcs aren’t going around targeting everyone they meet – because they understand that everyone is not an Empath (or indeed has high levels of empathy). As for saying I didn’t think that one through in my anger – you’re projecting! You have zero evidence that I was commenting in anger. I wasn’t angry. Not everyone who doesn’t agree with you is angry. Okay? Sometimes, we don’t always like what others are saying – but we must always be mindful to not project our own feelings (of anger for instance) onto others. Introspection before Projection! Finally, there is a ton of information all over the internet as to why a person becomes ensnared with a Narcissist, none of which even hints at the suggestion that we must ‘want to’ or that we stay ‘knowing’ it is abusive and unhealthy. Facebook has many fantastic groups for survivors of narcissistic abuse and then there is HG Tudor who explains at length how we become ensnared and the manipulation techniques used. I mention HG Tudor because you seem to be blaming victims and viewing them as ‘wanting to’ be with a Narcissist and I have to wonder why, after all this time reading and commenting on his blog, you still don’t seem to understand the basic Narc / Empath dynamics? There are many good books out there too, including Brene Brown’s ‘Daring Greatly’ which teaches us how to lean into our vulnerability (Narcs hate vulnerability) and how Shame can be worked through successfully, especially when becoming ensnared / entangled with a toxic individual who sees no qualms in projecting their own shame onto others through ’embarrassing, humiliating and making them feel guilty’. It’s all really good stuff and all part of the healing journey, as is practising Mindfulness and Meditation. Good luck in your own journey, Narc-Angel and have a good day!

Survivor, I had to go back and look at your other posts on this thread after I just replied to your post to me. It’s clear you really are hurting and regardless of the insults you have flung at me and most everyone else, I sincerely hope you heal.

NA’s letter and posts are triggering you deeply and I get it. Some posters trigger me, too. It’s just the nature of healing. I don’t want to give you grace for the comments you’ve made but I know you need it just like I have.

PS: I don’t have a fan girl crush on NA. The only fan girl crush I have is Cate Blanchett. NA is direct and I communicate well with people who are direct. She has affirmed me in my journey and noticed when I’ve grown and I don’t believe she’s a narcissist at all.

I replied to Narc Angel. I then replied to Wind Storm (a true empath). Are you so bored with your life that you’re sitting there, waiting for me to comment just to prove your point? Go away! You’re behaving like a stalker.

As far as your declaration that I’m an introverted narcissist “you’re completely incorrect but I think you know this already”. See how stupid that sounds?

I’m going to stoop to your level for a second and diagnose you even though I only know you through this thread (so dumb but that is your genius method). You are an Overly Dramatic Fool, also known as ODF. There is no medication for this as of yet but the medical community is feverishly working on it alongside a cure for the common cold and cancer.

Through my extensive research I have learned that the main characteristics of the Overly Dramatic Fool (ODF) are as follows:

1. Contradiction of previously stated assertions
2. Excessive defensiveness
3. Sensitivity to comments not addressed to you
4. Deciding what is “true” without acknowledging that what you’ve decided is “true” may indeed not be “true”
5. Needless attacks
6. The belief that you are unique
7. Habitually making the same statements that you attack others for
8. Severe paranoia, the belief that everyone is out to get you
9. Hysteria

The list goes on but you definitely have ODF. Again, I can give you this diagnosis just by a few posts on a blog where everyone is anonymous and we don’t know each other. Cognitive therapy can help a little bit but it is a last ditch effort.

Yes, she presented herself as being painted with the same brush she used to portray me. Ironic. I do hope she finds the place where there are no comments that do not align with hers, trigger her, or cause her to lose her shit like she did here, but I think youre right-she’ll be here under another name because this is the best place for the information and she knows it. And since she reads much into a name (as she did mine) perhaps she will get to a point where she is not just a Survivor but will have a name that reflects that she is actually past that phase and thriving. I wish her well despite her feelings about me.

Survivor
“Inverted narcissist” “Gotcha”
Who are you to make such judgements about people you’ve never met, based on a few comments on a blog? And even if you were correct, which I severely doubt, what good purpose does it serve? I don’t understand all the mudslinging against NarcAngel or any of the others targeted here, but I can’t believe it is for any good purpose.

Even if some of us are narcissists, they’re almost certainly midrangers and don’t understand what they are. What purpose is served by ridiculing them? I think that is the viewpoint of a true empath. Leave them alone and let them figure themselves out. Accusing other commenters of narcissism is really just slinging mud on yourself.