Terence's Mouth wrote:Okay i understand your point, but a big problem now where the units are well balanced are the emplacements.Aliet can fight vs Axis in a balanced way but still can build map full of emplacements.There is realy a need to change this.

Again, unless you have like 60-80% of the map its pretty usless to start spamming emplacments as allied. Axis would have enough res to bomb them to durst. So allied have some use of emplacments in early game and then when using single one. But only emplacment spam while axis have still 50% of the map? Thats suicide coz axis would have enough res for elites and arty.

1.Older times aliet was weaker but had more and cheaper emplacements that was a good way to stop axis.

"had"? the US had vcoh MG "tent" with voch weapon stats and HP. Three bursts of a fucking lmg killed the emplacment already... you think that was good and more "funny"? At the same time the emplacment did cost quite a lot! US simply got the cal 30 MG nest for the heavy cal 30 cost like every other faction has it. So you tink it was nice that US had an MG nest with vcoh stats? you must be kidding i guess

2.Now aliet are stronger but still have that cheap emplacements.

They have just got their normal MG stats and cost. So what? the cal 50 emplacment is the most expensive one, yet not as good against inf as others. High damage but almost no suppression which sucks. No other emplacment got changed in cost or anything. The 107 got reduced HP (reduced by quite a lot which is fine i think). RE emplacment cant or shouldnt bounce schrecks anymore. So again what are you talking about?

Pls dont tell me now axis have stronger emplacements.

They have. if you go def doc with defensive upgrade then an 88 emplacment can survive long tom strike with arround 40% HP left. They cost more than allied, but are not worse. But allied simply have more res for a mix of emplacment and normal units. And to be honest, they have to. In teamfights if the game turns into late game and when allied want to make the last push to base then they should have some emplacment defense back up. Otherwise they would risk getting steamroled by a single axis tank. Also US is all about preventation, esspecially inf doc. If you have too many res in reserve as inf doc then its kinda bad. It wont help you to "react better" on new situations. Its better to always invest res into back up units like paks and emplacments to make sure not getting killed in an axis counterattack. So the best way playing inf doc in teamfight late game is to simply increase your army size and to upgrade the supply yard and providing support for teammates.

Axis spend more res into single strong (defensive or normal combat) units and keep more in reserve (over invetment just hurts to adjust on new situations and hurts the income). They do not rely that much on a mix of and offensvive and defense units as their normal units are capable offensive and defensive units (Take a panther as sample. have Panther and most enemie tanks or inf wont bother you anymore, just keep 50 mm pak behind to kill fast and fragile allied TD´s). Allied distinguish more between offense and defensive units and usually have an reserve simply because axis counterattacks are much harder to stop than allied counterattacks. Have an easy eight in your lines, still you need help of special anti inf and heavy anti tank weapons when a panther or inf attacks (usually).

The Axis defense is much better suited for a comeback, esspecially the durable def doc defense. And thats their purpose.

Most of games especiacily 2vs2 games arnent played by Def or SE doc but with INF or Britains Docs.And this games are just to boring or to much struggling for axis that there isnt any fun.

I played against inf, RE and a third doc. I loved that game as it was really a challange for me as axis. But as wolf said, in old times playing allied was a challange. A mate of me (Luftjäger) actually agrees with you. But he freely says that he likes games where one side is easy win, the other hard and challanging. That way, he said, he can play the challanging faction to have a challange. And when he wins with the harder playable side he can be proud of himself. But he openly that allied was the harder playable faction. But again, as wolf said, it was not only challanging as allied, it was very often pure frustration. Like when you won a game and then stupa wins a 1 vs 2 against to jacksons. Only when we made rules and agreements before game starts it could be fun to play and yes, we often did that.

Maybe i remind you on the games against you. First you complained about my 88 spam. Its noobish and no fun you said. Then i beat you ONLY with krad spam and sector arty soam (i had only 2 combat units, max three) and you complained again, telling me i use "noob tactics" (your words). Then i used a mortar Bunker against you in 2 vs 2. It was trolling and again you complained. So in the last games i didnt use all the stuff you hated so much (88, sector arty, Mortar Bunker and what else). That already was an agreement between me and you so that you could have fun without being frustrated by that "noob tactics" and "no fun unit use" and "no fun gameplay". For me it was a bit trolling, for you it was apparently frustrating. I also had to make agreements not to use certain units. Nobody wanted to play with me unless i promissed not to use 88 guns. I did expand this agreement by forbiding the use of sd2 and sector arty on enemie ground for myself. Sector arty got fixed (another very good sample for something that got hated many players and which caused again frustration for many allied players), sd2 weakend, still i forbid myself using them and i will never use them again probably.

You said "in old times aliet never had fun" but now axis have most time struggling games if they dont use tons of artillery.Generally games look realy much more static than ever before because all this changes make axis players playing more defensive and aliet ever played defensive.All that comes from that balancing infantry and tanks while not rebalancing emplacements, pls think about that.

It would be funny making some voch experiences. I would say that axis players in vcoh are 1000x more skilled than most of the axis players in BK. I did play axis quite a lot in vcoh in past year and got many losses there. But this is what i call a challange. Ok, once you got all units vet 2 or 3 its easier and when panther spam comes. But the time up to that is pretty hard. No defense will live long there as off map arty etc has no cooldown. And as PE you have 0 defense at all in vcoh. At the same time you have just 3 men squads with reinforce cost of 45 per men. And then lots of upgrades. Still its very fun to play in their specific way. In vcoh all sides are challanging in their own ways. Axis have trouble because US spams so much inf with BAR´s at default after upgrade, even when spawning out of 150 MP triage centers.

So if you really think that axis are now very hard to play and very challanging, then you havent played vcoh with good players. There you cant just hide for a long time behind paks and mgs or behind a single scout car. Just saying.

Tanks are well balanced for me, Infantry is okay balanced for me too, Arty vs Arty is balanced okay but the last thing you have to adjust are the emplacementsAnd this is a big problem i think, the balance with strong axis infantry vs weak aliet infantry in combination with emplacements worked fine but what now?

Playing boring camp/bombing games? Limit the emplacments or put all of them out of the game?

For reasons above, removal is a bad move. Esspecially in late game teamfights its hard to fight allied without emplacments as little back up support. But i gave also reasons: Allis normal HMG crew arent worth to build. A Allied HMG crew will simply lose the ranged fight against axis inf with lmg and k98. Put your grens with K98 and lmg in yellow cover, fighting against an allied HMG that is not behind green cover. Or Volks in green cover vs Allied HMG in green cover. The axis squad will win. Put gebirgs on a field and vickers HMG in yellow cover. The Gebirgs can manage to kill the HMG crew with just one or two losses. Add vet to them and allied HMGs will die quickly. Thats simply because the axis damageoutput at range is higher with rifles and LMG as the damage from the allied weapon crew. And this is why i dont really use Allied HMG crews and instead Emplacments.

Make a test. Get Luft inf or Grens. Use sprint and run towards and Allied HMG crew. I am sure that you get into grenade range (30 range nade range for axis) before the allied HMG can effectively suppress. And then add yellow cover (craters) and use a vet 2 basic gren squad rushing towards a Allied HMG.

And finally: Use vet 2 ranger, let them run over a field full with craters against an HMG42. I am sure the axis overrun the Allied HMG, even without nades and just stgs. The HMg42 will suppress and shred the Rangers vet 2 (or even three) before they can do anything and MG42 wont use a single men. So again, axis are not really in a great need of emplacments.

As long as all that works that way, the emplacments will keep playing a major role simply as they cant get killed by Axis small arms fire in a ranged fight. Also Emplacments are better suited to segregate Axis tank from inf. A normal HMG crew would get killed by the Panther and inf could follow the Panther. The emplacment cant stop the Panther, but at least stopping/weakening the inf while panther passes, or Panther must stop to kill emplacment which gives you some time.

When there is an axis force of panther (maybe even 2) and some brutal Schreck/stg squads i would say that the only possible allied counter chance would be an SP+ lots of shermans+ sniper. Using only normal HMG crews wouldnt work as they would die instantly. And ambushed units would maybe damage a panther, but would then get "schrecked". Esspecially now, as axis heavies armor got buffed, those would steamrole just everything which is not an emplacment in an blink of an eye. So emplacment for allied have some important fuctions:1. Slowing down axis advanca a bit2. Soaking damage: schrecks are fired against emplacments, so tanks have better chance to fight the axis tanks.3. Weaken axis assault (or they would right drive till allied base. Just like illa does it with panthers atm.4. Early warning.5. Pak emplacments can fire more shots against an axis tanks as an ambushed pak, thus increasing the chance to make at least one pen shot.

In contrary to that, imagine allied attack: 3 ranger squads, 3 easy eights and a pershing. Axis need a jagdpanzer IV/70 in ambush that cant be "zooked" easily unlike allis TD can get "schrecked" and which is also able to keep fighting when being not in ambush anymore (allied must retreat usually when ambush didnt kill the axis tank usually). A inf squad (maybe Pgrens or a single luft squad) next to it and the rangers would be also dead in seconds.

You know, thats called diversity.

I only see one good idea that could solve that problem and this are that little/middle artillery guns for all doctrines.(They definatly have to make enough damage to destroy vickers and mortar emplacements)Plus another idea i realy like is to give all artillery 2 types of shooting(like the caliope with short and long shooting time)

I like this one. I often asked to add more light arty. As light arty i consider: all 75 mm Arty (CW Truck, pack howitzer, leig 18), calli jeep 25 pounder (87,6 mm) and maybe even 88, though its damage is quite capable in killing even tanks. Also maybe the 150 nebler.

Does anyone btw knows if there is a model for the Sexton SPG (CW spg that looks similiar to priest and which has 25 pounder).

So when we would got through doctrines i would say it would almost look ideal like that. Bad thing is that it again includes some doctrinal suggestions. I thought i could do it without:(

The leig 18 could be in all axis docs. The problem is, that the Terror and Def doc has already a quite large ammount of arty tools and off map stuff combined with biggest tanks. US 75 mm arty moved from FHQ to Motorpool for inf doc, and added in AB motorpool.

PURE theory thinking now! Dont take this tooo serious pls!

WE: BK doc (breakthrough doctrine or Heavy Tank Division):As it would contain all Tigers and KT´s (rewards):Maultier+ leig 18. I am even thinking about having Hummel in this doc as Hummel was attached mainly to germans armor divisions. The Limit would be one Hummel. But the doc would maybe lose even the elite inf, but not sure to be honest. (Limit: 1 Hummel)

Terror/Propaganda doc. Maybe even named to Infantry assault doc: Leig 18, 150 nebler and Hotchkiss. Also 170 mm off map "Kanone 18" strike. no more V1, firestorm or VT for nebler.Includes as units stormtooper and special gren upgrades. Also stuh/stupa (not as super range units) against emplacments and inf support guns.

USInf Division (renamed into mechanized Infantry doctrine): 75 mm HT and Priest (just not that current sniper priest with mega range, simply a priest with 105 gun and same performence of the field howitzer. And the off maps. (limit: 2 priest, 3 75 mm HT)Counterbalance: Rangers not cheaper anymore and more elite units. The inf mass production wouldnt decrease the cost by so much anymore. It might help to reduce the ammount of emplacments, but not sure. But spam of inf+emplacments would be harder.

AB:Calli jeep and 75 mm pack howitzer. (Limt: 2 calli jeep)

Armored Division:Calli sherman and 105 sherman. I once suggested as light army to have scott with small arty barrage. Ive seen the ability in corsix already or parts of it. Also the TC off map. Maybe even Priest as reward to 105 sherman? Not sure to be honest. (limit: 1 calli, 2 105 SPG, scott?)SP removed, obviously.

SE:The SE doc would be not an arty doc anymore or not so much. It is focusing more on ambushes, traps and stuff. So i consider the Grille as better suited here with short range. Also access to the 120 mortar and leifH 18/40 M.

Now at first this looks: "OMG, KT and Hummel in one doc? OP!"

But it has a simple explantation. The main big arty producer atm are SE doc and RA. Why? They often do nothing else than investing their res into expensive big arty. So big arty comes so fast, that light arty is becoming very fast obsolet. Now the big arty units which cause massive arty are now moved to docs which also have to field other heavy stuff. So instead having one doc that does nothing else then save res for wespe, we now have players being forced to either get expensive big arty and/or Big expensive tanks. So the total ammount of big arty units would be reduced+ they would come by far later (if they come). And if someone manages to get a Tiger and Hummel, then he will most likely lack everything else.

So the typicall "rush" straight for wespe/Hummel, Priest and Grille wouldnt be there anymore. RA would have only Sexton and not a single gun larger than 87,6 mm. Only one 114 mm off map.RE only 95 mm so far (and again little 114 off map). Cracking major defense would be AVRE job.

Inf would have a quite large arty arsenal, but downside again: the player cant get lots of inf+ lots of arty+ lots of emplacments. Hardly all arty at once. So never would every piece be fielded. So it can provide very strong arty support, but then would lack in other things which are also important for the Team.

Ok, sorry for such a mega thread again. And yeah, its pure theory speaking but i get like all night new ideas for docs etc. In these i am also attempting to solve current issues brought in steam or forum.

Last edited by Warhawks97 on 10 Sep 2015, 20:07, edited 1 time in total.

When i play axis i never have enough artillery to destroy emplacement spam, enemy can build faster new ones then i have enough munition to shoot while the nebler is to bad to destroying them.So i realy want some weapon to take out emplacements from the far, not a emplacement change itself.Maybe some damage change for artillery to buildings, and another idea that would be realy cool is to increase the TNT damage, that TNT pioneers can build(to give aliets more chances to destroy that heavy beton bunkers of axis faster)So if you give some middle artillery guns for axis to destroy aliet emplacements and some middle artillery guns for aliets too plus decreasing TNT damage we dont get a balance problem.

@warhawks I realy would like to see both artillery doctrines RA and SE with less artillery while all the other doctrines get their own artillery(i prefer middle not heavy artillery there)

One thing i say again and i know i wrote it 2 times before:Two types of shooting with artillery(One short/one Long) plus a little damage increase against emplacements[not for the grille because it has to good aim]

Last edited by Terence's Mouth on 10 Sep 2015, 20:25, edited 3 times in total.

WE: BK doc (breakthrough doctrine or Heavy Tank Division):As it would contain all Tigers and KT´s (rewards):Maultier+ leig 18. I am even thinking about having Hummel in this doc as Hummel was attached mainly to germans armor divisions. The Limit would be one Hummel. But the doc would maybe lose even the elite inf, but not sure to be honest. (Limit: 1 Hummel)

Terror/Propaganda doc. Maybe even named to Infantry assault doc: Leig 18, 150 nebler and Hotchkiss. Also 170 mm off map "Kanone 18" strike. no more V1, firestorm or VT for nebler.Includes as units stormtooper and special gren upgrades. Also stuh/stupa (not as super range units) against emplacments and inf support guns.

USInf Division (renamed into mechanized Infantry doctrine): 75 mm HT and Priest (just not that current sniper priest with mega range, simply a priest with 105 gun and same performence of the field howitzer. And the off maps. (limit: 2 priest, 3 75 mm HT)Counterbalance: Rangers not cheaper anymore and more elite units. The inf mass production wouldnt decrease the cost by so much anymore. It might help to reduce the ammount of emplacments, but not sure. But spam of inf+emplacments would be harder.

AB:Calli jeep and 75 mm pack howitzer. (Limt: 2 calli jeep)

Armored Division:Calli sherman and 105 sherman. I once suggested as light army to have scott with small arty barrage. Ive seen the ability in corsix already or parts of it. Also the TC off map. Maybe even Priest as reward to 105 sherman? Not sure to be honest. (limit: 1 calli, 2 105 SPG, scott?)SP removed, obviously.

SE:The SE doc would be not an arty doc anymore or not so much. It is focusing more on ambushes, traps and stuff. So i consider the Grille as better suited here with short range. Also access to the 120 mortar and leifH 18/40 M.

Now at first this looks: "OMG, KT and Hummel in one doc? OP!"

But it has a simple explantation. The main big arty producer atm are SE doc and RA. Why? They often do nothing else than investing their res into expensive big arty. So big arty comes so fast, that light arty is becoming very fast obsolet. Now the big arty units which cause massive arty are now moved to docs which also have to field other heavy stuff. So instead having one doc that does nothing else then save res for wespe, we now have players being forced to either get expensive big arty and/or Big expensive tanks. So the total ammount of big arty units would be reduced+ they would come by far later (if they come). And if someone manages to get a Tiger and Hummel, then he will most likely lack everything else.

So the typicall "rush" straight for wespe/Hummel, Priest and Grille wouldnt be there anymore. RA would have only Sexton and not a single gun larger than 87,6 mm. Only one 114 mm off map.RE only 95 mm so far (and again little 114 off map). Cracking major defense would be AVRE job.

Inf would have a quite large arty arsenal, but downside again: the player cant get lots of inf+ lots of arty+ lots of emplacments. Hardly all arty at once. So never would every piece be fielded. So it can provide very strong arty support, but then would lack in other things which are also important for the Team.

Ok, sorry for such a mega thread again. And yeah, its pure theory speaking but i get like all night new ideas for docs etc. In these i am also attempting to solve current issues brought in steam or forum.

I said just tuning of emplacements might be a shitload of balancing work to do which is not recommended indeed.. but now surprisingly u r wasting ur time by typing such a complete theoretical rework of all docs, stop dreaming plz X_X

If there is an upcoming patch anytime soon... It would be only a tiny one! Or what do u expect?

@Tiger we definatly need that last big changes here.You cant change most of the aliet units and nerfing axis while you dont change something at the emplacements.

And the best way to change that emplacement problem is to change the artillery(because you dont need to change the emplacments themself)Plus you can solve that artillery problem too (what means no boring artillery only games anymore)

And you want to tell me something about "Wasting time"? Srsly? 20 pages (oor more) and hundreds of posts full of usless personal insults and pointless discuissions about "who hates who most" and "who is more right". And you tell me something about "wasting time". Interesting. At least i havent posted a single post (or maybe just one) which doesnt include either some arguments, sources, experiences or suggestions (even if only as theory).

For me its not a waste of time. I hade a nice day, enjoyed some sun, pushed my project forward. And this is simply my relaxing evening.

Terence's Mouth wrote:@Tiger we definatly need that last big changes here.You cant change most of the aliet units and nerfing axis while you dont change something at the emplacements.

And the best way to change that emplacement problem is to change the artillery(because you dont need to change the emplacments themself)Plus you can solve that artillery problem too (what means no boring artillery only games anymore)

But as I said also, I would never encourage on changing any more values specifically regarding the damage of anything or whatsoever.

Emplacements for now are just fine in my humble opinion as u really shouldn't forget that they are less often bouncing off the handheld AT weapons and that both the Def and the RE docs defensive enhancement bonus items are no longer allowing to soak up any penetrations.. however that I believe the Axis are in need of a slightly better longer range capabilities for their tanks in order to avoid complete camping whenever the Allies are intending to do so at anytime... As u would still have the chance to snipe something among their concrete defenses perhaps!

And a 200popcap mode would somewhat help btw ^^

Well, each of us all has clearly enough introduced his viewpoint for now anyways

@Hawks; I was only defending myself through all those silly personal arguments, as I obviously never managed to create certain topics against any kind of forum users personally!! Whatever.

Tiger1996 wrote:But as I said also, I would never encourage on changing any more values specifically regarding the damage of anything or whatsoever.

Emplacements for now are just fine in my humble opinion as u really shouldn't forget that they are less often bouncing off the handheld AT weapons and that both the Def and the RE docs defensive enhancement bonus items are no longer allowing to soak up any penetrations.. however that I believe the Axis are in need of a slightly better longer range capabilities for their tanks in order to avoid complete camping whenever the Allies are intending to do so at anytime... As u would still have the chance to snipe something among their concrete defenses perhaps!

Emplacments are good. I just gave a theoretical idea how light and medium arty like 75mm 88mm, 95mm, 25 pdr and 150 nebler would become more important as effective emplacment killers. While 105 would become not less in possible numbers, but possibilties to be fielded.

And a 200popcap mode would somewhat help btw ^^

might be. But 225 is not fixed and so its often not more than 140 or 160. And when in late game axis armies do reach arround 80-100 popcap already, then Allied would get in trouble with their 10-140 popcap. So we often play 250 popcap or non popcap. Maybe we could make a modus in which nothing is limited. Means no unit would have a limit. Just as a game mode that can be tested and played for those who want.

Well, each of us all has clearly enough introduced his viewpoint for now anyways

@Hawks; I was only defending myself through all those silly personal arguments, as I obviously never managed to create topics against any kind of forum users!! Whatever.

But you replied very very often. I would ignore it or i would keep my line. Giving my arguments+ sources and reasons and done. About everything else i wouldnt care much. Maybe that alone would maybe help go attract less "dislikes" and "hates".

I actually never start raging really when talking with peoples. I figured out that it doesnt help and that it just feeds the rage of others. I usually stay calm and make my point clear. After that i give other some time to think and to calm down. Very often those do then come back after some days (or weeks) having a bad feeling about what they did and often apologize even. But keep "shooting counter barrages" doesnt help. Thats what i call a waste of time. But also, when people get bothered by me, i do really think about it and what i have made wrong maybe. Thats part of the human learning process i would say.

The prob is, you dont think about that what has attracted others dislikes or hates. Instead you fire instantly counter barrages. You say you ignore them, but you keep replaying which is strange for me. So by not thinking properly and deeply about what you did, by shooting counter barrages that arent more friendly then others people posts, and by not even ignoring the hate posts simply (which would show you stay over it and that enemie "shells would simply bounce on your natural armor") you attract more hate and the endless replys you do are really a waste of time as those will never change anything in the relation between you and others.

This is not an offense. Its an advice and help for you. I simply dont like it when people do insult each other over and over again. It happens sometimes, ok, when someone is in a bad temper. But that constantly deraling of topics because of hates and flames really bothers me. Its hard then to find the "related" posts between all these hate posts which sometimes do not even include a single argument, source, suggestion or whatever.

Terence's Mouth wrote:I cannot emphasise strongly enough that you cant change whole aliet units without changing emplacements when aliets always had chances to win because of that emplacements.

At the same time you wont back "old times" in which axis unit without cover kills allied unit with cover just because "it was more expensive".

You cant have both you know. Want less emplacment spam? Then make it possible that an allied bullet from an allied solider and weapon is just as deadly against an axis soldier as an axis bullet from axis weapon from axis solider. If that is done, close the MP cost gaps.

But you know where you are then? Spearhead mod, something, as you said, you dont wish and like. So when allied soldier in cover are not a gurantee to kill axis unit without cover but both with similiar equipment, then dont wonder that many allied player DO support their inf and tanks with emplacment. Exactly only this mix gives the allied player an proper counter on which he can count.

Play against luft inf as inf doc without a single emplacment. Its very hard, even in new patch. The best i tactic i could figure out was HE sherman and sniper and arty on their paks. But sd2 and Hetzer can ruin this tactical quickly. So yeah... I am using emplacments then.

I stoped wanting back old times after wolfs posts, and started to help you know balance the mod like it is now.

Now i want light artillery how you call it, i thought were thinkin the same in this point but maybe i was wrong.

@Untouchable Oracle Warhawks: And pls stop with that bullshit, pervert words of the past while dont listen to other words, it doesnt help and if we would start take apart everything you said we never would come to an end.

Last edited by Terence's Mouth on 11 Sep 2015, 00:45, edited 1 time in total.

75 ammo to fire AP from 50mm axis gun. Are you insane? What for? To scratch sherman?Does it fire 280mm rocket trought that turret?You can get artillery fire for 50 ammo but you need 75 ammo for single 50mm AP shot?Pls make artillery more expensive, its insane that artillery cost almost as hand granade.

Idk was it a bad luck but pzFaust is now for shit, I needed like 3 of them to kill sherman, and only if I didnt have any misses (sadly I had).It has 200mm penetration. If you made inf weaker to tanks (they die like flies when they meat tank, that is ok) then be realistic and if inf reach sherman and fire pzFaust in sherman then sherman is dead.

ursus wrote:75 ammo to fire AP from 50mm axis gun. Are you insane? What for? To scratch sherman?Does it fire 280mm rocket trought that turret?You can get artillery fire for 50 ammo but you need 75 ammo for single 50mm AP shot?Pls make artillery more expensive, its insane that artillery cost almost as hand granade.

Idk was it a bad luck but pzFaust is now for shit, I needed like 3 of them to kill sherman, and only if I didnt have any misses (sadly I had).It has 200mm penetration. If you made inf weaker to tanks (they die like flies when they meat tank, that is ok) then be realistic and if inf reach sherman and fire pzFaust in sherman then sherman is dead.

You cant compare AP rounds and arty so easily. AP rounds should be expensive and used only in certain situations.

But what bugs me is that a unit with HE rounds has to pay either always 75 ammo just to activate HE rounds (sdkfz 251 with 37 mm gun in BK doc, AA tanks) or its needs 25 ammo to upgrade and again 35-50 ammo to activate HE rounds. Now take as sample you want to attack a weapon crew or unit in good cover. A stug III would cost you 25 ammo for HE upgrade and 35 to activate HE rounds for a few seconds. A sherman or stubby Tank IV 25 to upgrade and 50 for activation. A barrage of an howitzer or nebler would just cost 50 ammo and also cheaper to build.

This is something i would change to be honest. Or look at mortars. Or look at grenade cost. So when attacking with a unit that needs ammo to be upgraded and then ammo again during attacks for nades and other stuff. And with some bad luck your unit dies and all the ammo investmen is gone. You get at the end more arty with less risk which can fire three barrages for the cost which a single unit cost in upgrades and grenades.

I dont really see a prob for AP round cost to be honest. Considering what boosts they provide. But other stuff is quite expensive compared to arty.

@Terence:

Idk when you started reading the forum but i was the very first one who asked for more light arty in more docs which is considerable cheaper than heavy arty (105 mm and bigger). Ive started for example the request to move the US 75 mm Pack Howitzer from Inf doc FHQ´s with 400/25 build to cost to motorpool for cheaper cost. Cost got reduced to 325/25 but its still in fhq.

I asked to change the scott a bit so that it has a small 75 mm arty barrage or making it a pure arty unit like 105 sherman just with less range and smaller calibre.

I am asking to remove limits from small arty pieces like leig 18 and stuff.

And i do agree that Arty doc and SE are very large arty producer (even terror doc to a certain extent), just their arty kills everything, not only emplacments.But in case of arty doc.... its simply arty doc. The best we could do here is to replace the Priest with sexton which has no 105 mm like Priest, but instead 87,6 mm 25 pdr guns.

I also like your idea to have small and normal barrages.

But also as i said, allied emplacments become first decisive when allied have map controle already. So generally i dont see too many problems with emplacments. If you use some stormtooper for example with vet steps its quite easy. Shoot the leader squad off map arty on the next pak, then rush with storms and AA tanks. Use assault ability from stormtrooper against emplacments and AA tank with HE rounds. The Assault ability makes your squad throwing 3-9 nades over a large distance and removes suppression. It often kills the emplacment when combined with schreck (which fires like 2 times during that ability). The AA tank with HE rounds is also a geat emplacment killer.

My own technique of clearing emplacements is smoke + satchels. Works wonders. Actually, I took a base with just volks and smoke once. I just bombarded the AA guns with grenades under the cover of smoke. It's a shame that everyone forgets about the smoke... I end frequently end games as airborne under 20 minutes with a smoke + satchel combo. Got a few people pretty angry too saying how "gay" it was.But, maybe I shouldn't have said anything because then people will complain how smoke is OP. That tends to happen a lot on this mod. Someone thinks of using units/abilities in a creative way and everyone is up in arms against it saying it's a balance issue... I can almost bet that 80% of the time the counters are there. It's just a matter of finding the counter. (Except fucking sd2's. Thank god those actually cost something now. #iheart493 #devs<3 )

The advantages of smoke have been mentioned here several times... Someone even said that when you cover MG42 nest in smoke, even Rifles can sprint directly through its cone of fire withou getting suppressed. But you know how it works...building small mortars makes no sense since they are useless...

MarKr wrote:building small mortars makes no sense since they are useless...

ehm. I want the 60 mm a bit cheaper simply it can be used only as "smoke battery". Also i asked to have the 60 mm mortar in the inf doc as well. In late game i would rather combine 60 mm mortars shooting smoke for my inf instead of the 81 mm.

So yeah, if it would be possible to get the 60 mm in inf doc as well and cost/build time dropped a bit, that´d be fine. I mean that inf doc could build both mortars, the 60 and 81 mm.

I have to agree about those emplacements, as i have seen them used as assault weapons, even thou my pz4 shot at the damn thing (us at gun) like 4 times it was build before the tank mg could finish of the engineers, build time increase or more easily interrupted while building or a delay after being build would be welcomed. But those thing are hard to balance, especially with all those inf denial weapons being abundant now, the best way to destroy them is with schreks, as you will end up wasting too much ammo except with victor.

I agree with easier deny. I also build such stuff under fire. Even bunkers under HMG fire.

So the production should be easier denied.HE rounds could deal some more damage maybe.Arty maybe some more damage as well against emplacemants.

but i want to remind that inf doc must defend every square meter very hard. When inf doc in late game loses ground to axis armor (most likely panther and some inf) then the doc has hardly something to take it back with a counterattack. So a nebler that kills an emplacment with every salvo and then Panther G + 2 gren squads and inf doc can say GG. Keep that pls in mind.

Well.... the production should be denied easier (maybe some easier than others). Larger constructions like PAK, bunker, 88 emplacments, bofors etc could be denied easier. MG nest producion and Trenches should be a bit harder to deny (simply as trenching in during combat was not unnormal for infantry to hold taken ground instantly).

The only times I've ever had trouble with emplacements is with US armor doc. But, if I have a good teammate I never have to worry too much. For example, RAF would bomb the AT, my HE shermans would quick clear the mg's, the commandos would finish up. It could be done even easier with just commandos by getting 2inch mortar and smoking the mg, running commandos in and setting demos. I've literally taking bases with inf only, and I don't mean just constant mortaring until the AA is gone. I mean, I just run in with volks and take out emplacements like theyre nothing. I really don't think emplacements are a bother at all.

In terms of facing never ending arty, I've done many times. It's not unbeatable by any means. But, I would say I don't like it because it seems like arty has become a crutch, sort like rolling weighted dice and relying on that rather than hedging against probabilities which I think is a big part of BK mod. So, yeah I can see how 3v3's against all arty docs are annoying... on small maps.... There's a reason why I don't play 4v4's any more.

Seriously, arty is so much less of a shit-clusterfuck-problem when I get a few brave souls who are actually willing to play on larger maps. Otherwise, on small maps I just go arty because I just hate people who are so adamant that 3v3 maps for 3v3 games is the only and best way to go. Terrence is right in the sense that arty is a very controlling and common "tool" used in small map games. But, I don't think there's a need to go making stat changes for it.

2) Not only PAK cost increased but nerfed also ... shells bounce like point 1.

3) Thank you to the huge nerf of 88 (suggested by the ones started to spam them just to demonstrate that it was OP)....Was not better to learn how to play the right way a Doctrine ? Simply ridiculous.

4) RA + Raf now in mid/late game are a fireworks challenge .... Planes and artillery everywhere like no tomorrow. Great work.

5) Some wall-of-text-writer/scientist still want possible to have snipers shooting inside vehicles.

If you want my opinon, this is one of the worst update I can remeber since first release of BK mod.

P.S.: to the wall-of-text-writers:Please exclude me from your answers. When I read your answers about doctrines I NEVER SAW YOU to play (or just sometime) .... you become more ridiculous than you are.

Regards.

guess you are regarding that game:http://forum.bkmod.net/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=836&view=unread#unread

I figured out that on same maps fausts and stuff do bounce not from a tank but from a obstacle in front of it. I saw a fuast bouncing of a almost destroyed bush that was in front of a tank. Fausts cant bounce from enemie units actually. Schrecks can bounce from some tanks and esspecially hull downs.

3. As said, churchill armor got buffed. Also arty is supposed to kill it but still the first one didnt die from two arty churchill salvos (due to misses). So whats wrong here? The emplaced one got a buff

4. In that game both of you played pretty static. But thats also maps fault. Autry is simply a shit map the mostly ends in arty. And you also used quite a lot of arty. Seen the game of illa and erich? Double arty salvo on single units like paks and cangoroo. Thats no firework then?

5. They should only fire out of not moving vehicles at least. The cangoroo double sniper+ leutnant and HMG is really a way off. I think this was which ruined mainly your game as all storms and luft got killed quickly that way wherever you tried to attack.

in the past games we hadnt soo many probs. First a bit but later on the schrecks and stuff blown them up. We used to let our paks shoot the recces and AA tanks and not the churchill. When the support stuff arround was down, we easily killed them with schrecks. The Jagdpanzer with panther canon and Panther tanks eat them as breakfast and thats good. And once you managed to kill one or two of them in a row the RE player has lots of problems to reorganize and to launch a new attack. Without mate he would collapse eventually from schreck attacks and axis armor.

Something to add from my side:

Drop Heavy assault gren squad from 435 to 400 MP (reinforce cost are ok, but the build cost are high since it is the actual late game standard inf from PE). Also maybe one STG in squad at default? Drop Pgren squad from 360 to 340. As PE i prefer to build up base simply as i fear to lose build squad which would cost me 360 MP again. Reinforce cost are fine atm.

As PE its quite hard to get a combined force. A inf squad and hetzer cost already more than 800 MP. So a build cost drop for PE inf would be nice. Besides that they even seem to be weaker than WE grens, lmao.

Last edited by Warhawks97 on 06 Nov 2015, 23:13, edited 1 time in total.

28 September ..... the last reply to this thread.I checked on forum and in lobby. Since last update something isn't going well guys.Game is changed too much since previous update (in the wrong direction IMHO).

I am not a complete player or a pros in this game BUT, last update totally killed the possibility to have fun playing mainly with infantry.