Posted:11th Dec 2005answer to me personally I think people confuse the two and think everyone who juggles is either training to be in the circus looking for a job in the circus or is in the circus someone asked me that this summer I turned and walked away my highschool senior project is going to educate people on juggling circuses skill and those who prefore acts based upon minimal skill even if the audiance is one of them and I hope that they will obtain knowledge and appreciation for true technical juggling and not bnch all juggling into the same difficulty level as one bozo the clown

(jason said alot of this I must give him credit for most of what is written here)EDITED_BY: pre1236 (1134272677)

Posted:14th Dec 2005pre - "These people do lack skill and can barely juggle at all for that matter."

I assume, by "these people" you mean people like me? street performers who entertain using a basic physical skill level combined with a high audience participation/communication skill level. (if that makes sense). So, by this statement do you mean to tell me I lack skill and can barely juggle. Because, although I don't consider myself to be a great juggler, I do take offence by that and do not think you have any right to make an assumption that just because I DON'T juggle 5clubs in my routine it means I CAN'T juggle 5clubs.

pre - "and JTJ fire is no more difficult or danderous than clubs just more sightly. it is the same level of difficulty as clubs are. I would just do it so I can juggle at night time and that fire is the best thing ever created. I was at a party with my friends we has a brush fire. So my friend whos hosting it goes and grabs the tank of gasoline and throws it on the fire. Yes I know I know not the smartest thing but pretty funny and cool at the same time. especially 10 minutes later when he ran through it"

fire no more difficult? that has to be the biggest load of I have read in any of your posts. although juggling 3fire clubs is the same technique as juggling 3 normal clubs, it is most definately harder due to the psychological affects of big balls of fire in your face.

AND I'm not even gonna start on the whole gasoline thing!

ok, I spose I should explain why I don't do my best stuff in shows: juggling is my hobby as well as my profession, and I find that if I use all my favourite and hardest tricks in my shows I start to get bored of them, so I guess I try to keep my work and my hobbies seperate. does that make sense?

Posted:14th Dec 2005fire juggling clubs is a huge difference! A: you're practically blind to where the handle is most of the time, since the fire blinds your vision of it. b) the fire affects rotation and as the fuel burns down the weight of the club changes. c) you never juggle fire in good lighting conditions.

Normal club juggling is easy compared to fire, since you practise with EXACTLY the same props you use for performance. Never the case with fire toys, as fueling them up always changes their weight.

"the now legendary" - Kaskade"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

I have apreciation of true technical juggling and contempt for those who preform acts based on minimal skill.

Any idea why you have contempt for those who's acts don't use high technical skill levels?

Basically, they are just people whose skills (and holding the attention of an audience and entertaining them is a skill that requires either great innate ability, or a lot of dedicated practice) are better suited to entertaining than technical juggling.

Like i said before, I'm not particularly interested in watching such shows, but I see not reason to critisise those performers who cater to the demand for them.

I never said I had contempt fot those who dont use high technical skill. Just those of who prefore based of minimal skill meaning less than 5 balls less than 5 rings and only using 3 clubs.

IF you want to respond to someone make sure you know what it is that they said.

fire juggling clubs is a huge difference! A: you're practically blind to where the handle is most of the time, since the fire blinds your vision of it. b) the fire affects rotation and as the fuel burns down the weight of the club changes. c) you never juggle fire in good lighting conditions.

Normal club juggling is easy compared to fire, since you practise with EXACTLY the same props you use for performance. Never the case with fire toys, as fueling them up always changes their weight.

and dude fire is fun, I am not afraid of getting burned I have been burned numerous times. Although it wasn't while juggling. I have one crazy friend when it comes to fire so i know what its like to be blinded by fire. but as long as you can filp the clubs well and you can move your hands and juggle clubs i'd think your are fine. and about the change in weight if you use KEVLAR wicking the wick the weight should be a problem. and anyway their can't be that much of a change in weight.

whatever These people do lack skill and can barely juggle at all for that matter. And I think you are in serious need of a dictionary for chanukah or christmas. You need to no what a hypocrite is and how to spell it hypocrite: a person who professes beliefs and opinions that he does not hold. And I never made any assumptions I just said that people confuse circus' and juggling which is 100% true. You have no Idea how many people tell me I should get a job in the circus or if I'm with the circus. and with bozo the clown you get the idea of a clown dressed in white makeup wearing big shoes and a red nose and maybe juggling alittle. I have apreciation of true technical juggling and contempt for those who preform acts based on minimal skill

again i challenge you to name some of 'these people' that lack skill, barely juggle yet are employed by circuses as jugglers.

if you get me a dictionary for christmas, i'll get you a visit to the real world.

i explained my use of the word hypocrite when i said directly after it that you "make judgements based on very little information or experience and then condemn those that do it to you".i.e. you believe that people should educate themselves about how juggling fits into the circus, yet you yourself seem to have absolutely no idea of where 'technical juggling' comes from, where the innovators and greats of that field are to be found or what being a clown, a circus juggler or any physical performance artist actually entails.

you ignored all of my points about your misconceptions regarding circuses, clowns and performance and chose instead to ignore those points and instead correct the one spelling mistake in my post (again this oozes hypocrisy when you fully expect others to respond to the points made in your spelling-mistake-and-grammatical-error-ridden posts).

how many times have you performed juggling in front of an audience pre (and i'm sure i don't have to point out that practicing in public does *not* constitute a performance in any respect)?

the most ridiculous thing you have said so far is:

"I never said I had contempt fot those who dont use high technical skill. Just those of who prefore based of minimal skill meaning less than 5 balls less than 5 rings and only using 3 clubs."

if you are at all interested in getting some perspective and actually understanding what a performing juggler is, go look up these legendary performers:

kris kremowc fieldsfrancis brunnben beribobby maystefan sing

cole. x

"i see you at 'dis cafe.i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.they do porridge."- tim westwood

Stefan Sing, or Stephan Sing? I'm not trying to correct you here, Cole, there may well be two people, I may be wrong, and either way, I haven't seen either of them, I've heard through a grapevine that Ryan Mellors may have a little bit of Stephan Sing on his christmas video, coming soon... and this just makes me anticipate that video even more...

And anyway, I think one-ball has more skill...

[/cat amongst the pigeons]

Empty your mind. Be formless, Shapeless, like Water.Put Water into a cup, it becomes the cup, put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, put water into a teapot, it becomes the teapot.Water can flow, or it can Crash.Be Water My Friend.

You might want to be careful about holding a goal for yourself that is actually about other people. You want people to perceive things in a certain way, but no technical training, performance , education or head bashing will ever do that. People are all different in how they perceive things, and many not the least interested in the distinctions you hold as valuable. Your goals would best be about you, I think.

I suggest revisiting that goal. Maybe change it to to something like finding a community that shares your concern or values in this area, so you can feel happy and secure within it, without needing to defend your perspective.

Or maybe chose as your goal to spend as much time broadening your perception /experience of performance (and people) as you spend expanding your technical skill set. If you wanted to you could beginning by by taking in and seriously considering what some of what these highly experienced people on the board are trying to share with you. ( About juggling, performance, circus and what not, not neccessarily punctuation)

Or a simple goal that could solve one of your problems is to make yourself a tshirt that has on it " Not in the Circus, and never will be..." ;-)

smiles,

Andrea

PS I had no idea you all took spelling and punctuation so darned seriously! Yikes! Really, some people like me are typing really really fast, and not spellchecking, due to time constraints

... I hope you can show some gentleness and forgiveness by taking those factors into account as much as the writers IQ!

You dont have to read anything,by anyone, why not ignore ones that are not punctuated or spelled in a way you like? Jeez. I feel inhibited to write anything now! And I stubbornly refuse to spellcheck this, so there!

Posted:17th Dec 2005I think the only reason his spelling was picked up upon was because he picked up Cole on a spelling mistake...

I thenk they were trying to point out that the pot shouldn't call the kettle black...

Empty your mind. Be formless, Shapeless, like Water.Put Water into a cup, it becomes the cup, put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, put water into a teapot, it becomes the teapot.Water can flow, or it can Crash.Be Water My Friend.

I have nothing against people who make mistakes while typing (I make plenty myself), it's more that people are just so damned lazy when it comes to getting their points across and it makes it really difficult to read.

There really is no excuse, even just putting in a few line breaks is good enough to make something easily readable.

/off topic.EDITED_BY: TheBovrilMonkey (1134761060)

But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

answer to me personally I think people confuse the two and think everyone who juggles is either training to be in the circus looking for a job in the circus or is in the circus someone asked me that this summer I turned and walked away my highschool senior project is going to educate people on juggling circuses skill and those who prefore acts based upon minimal skill even if the audiance is one of them and I hope that they will obtain knowledge and appreciation for true technical juggling and not bnch all juggling into the same difficulty level as one bozo the clown

(jason said alot of this I must give him credit for most of what is written here)

No capitals to start a sentence.No capital letters for a name.No attempt to make any of the post a sentence, or several sentences.No full stops.No Commas,One set of brackets No attempt to make any of the original post legible.No idea of what spelling is.

And no attempt to correct any of the above mistakes throughout this thread. This part particularly annoys me.

Pre, I am a 7ball juggler, I am learning 7 ball tricks. I probably have more 5 ball tricks than you do friends (damn! I sound like Alan Partridge!) You obviously have no idea what a technical juggler is. You obviously have no idea what a clown is, or what kind of juggler works in a circus. Sorry to be the one to inform you but Jason Garfield is a cock, a sore loser who only set up the WJF so he could win something (didn't he only get silver in a recent IJA championship?).

Owen Reynolds and Victor Kee have both worked in a circus. Fair enough you have probably heard of neither of them, but I can assure you that both are technical jugglers. Owen is a clubs master, Victor is a ball master. They probably both have great clowns too.

You obviously have no idea of what pleases an audience. You probably believe whatever Jason Garfield says, or writes on his website.

I can tell you I have performed at conventions, and have performed (as a clown) for crowds nearing 3,000. There is a HUGE difference between being a great technical juggler and being a great clown. Entertaining huge crowds as a clown isn't all about juggling, it's more about being funny (no juggling, no pies either) and making people laugh and enjoy themselves. Entertaining smaller crowds as a technical juggler at a convention is about (...actually I'm not going to tell you about this one).

Please respond to this post and tell me WHAT YOU THINK a clown is and a great technical juggler is. Please do not quote Jason at all, I want to know YOUR thoughts on this subject. Have you performed at all? Have you made anyone laugh through your juggling? Have you ever impressed people through your juggling?

My first post in this thread (the first to respond to you) picked up on your bad grammar. You have made no attempt to correct any mistakes you made throughout this thread. You never seem to read anything anyone else has written, which makes me believe it is not worth posting anything in response to you, since you probably won't - read it.appreciate it.take on board my comments.

So please prove me wrong.

Will.

P.S. Friends, myself and Bex have arrived in New Zealand safely. It's great over here, loads of space, loads of green, loads of sheep. And at long last I intend to make a juggling video with some cool tricks on. And hopefully some lovely New Zealand landscape.

Posted:17th Dec 2005Written by: UCOFPre: are you an American teenager?

of course he is. No-one else could possibly have such bad English skills. Or have such amazingly crap arguments.

Jason Garfield has a career making money from juggling. He started off doing hack shows and stealing hack lines from other hack jugglers. He openly admits this one his website.

I have to correct you again young Pre - when Jason first competed in Denver 1988 IJA he could do 6 rings, 7balls and 5 clubs, not to mention 3 cigar boxes. If you think you are more of a geek on juggling than I am, think again.

Oh, what is your definition of a hack juggler? I've met loads of hack jugglers, or people who do hack routines, and they are some of the best jugglers and performers I know.

Did you have any thoughts of yourself in response to my post or are you tongue tied?EDITED_BY: Hexagonic (1134778090)

of course he is. No-one else could possibly have such bad English skills. Or have such amazingly crap arguments.

Jason Garfield has a career making money from juggling. He started off doing hack shows and stealing hack lines from other hack jugglers. He openly admits this one his website.

I have to correct you again young Pre - when Jason first competed in Denver 1988 IJA he could do 6 rings, 7balls and 5 clubs, not to

mention 3 cigar boxes. If you think you are more of a geek on juggling than I am, think again.

Oh, what is your definition of a hack juggler? I've met loads of hack jugglers, or people who do hack routines, and they are some of the best jugglers and performers I know.

Did you have any thoughts of yourself in response to my post or are you tongue tied?

okay first off, I have only seen the competition video of jason garfield I didn't really think to do research on that area.

About hack jugglers,I'll make it simple, I already put up a definition but obviously since you've been too ignorant to read it I'll right it again. people who use less than 4 clubs, 5 balls, and 5 rings, during a routine(during an outdoor routine not using rings is acceptable) people who have to trick the audiance into telling them that the tricks are difficult or dangerous. finally people who tell the audiance things like the maximum a person can juggler is 7 or maybe even 5 so tthat the audance gets the preception that the juggler is better than they are. also people who juggle while eating an apple. and finally people3 who use minimal skill in hopes that their audiance has never before seen anything better than what their doing.

And about my terrible arguements, If they were really bad arguements do you think that you would have to make a post to let people know that they are bad. No I am not "tongue tied" I am a born debater I had a teacher come up to me after an anoucement about a debate group. He really wanted me to go. why do you think? I people always argue with me If i have enough facts they will lose 100% of the time. arguing is my middle name next to fire. and anyway hexagonic what is your profession I can tell that you are not an lawyer by your arguements. let me guess you work at a gas station.EDITED_BY: pre (1134930588)

I advise you to become more skilled in reading what people have to say and thinking about what your personal thaughts are. Maybe take more time on posts.

When people disagree with you dont take it personally, its just they disagree with your argument, giving examples to back it up. don't be scared to admit that you might be in the wrong sometimes.

Here's the bit where I AGREE with you. I gets on my nerves a tiny bit when people say "are you going to run off to the circus?", simply because it seems derogatory, but the people who say it are often just teasing, because its not genarally a mainstream thing like football and they are not aware of contemporary juggling scenes today and how posotive it all is. For example my mum said this to me but now but she have never teased again since i taught her 3 ball cascade, i hadn't seen her smile so much in a while.

For some reason people who don't do "circus skills" have backward negative view of "the circus". I cant comment on why because i have never seen anything negative about any form of circus group. Its probably more to do with circuses hundreds of years ago and the opinions people formed back then.

Posted:19th Dec 2005I don' really have negative veiws about circuses. I just know for fact that people confuse the two. From my point of veiw ifsomeone doesn't know about juggling competitions such as the IJA or WJF, they aoutomatically think you're in the circus or think you should get a job in the circus. I never said that the circus is full of hack jugglers for if i did say that as I stated before I would be lying. There is one excellent juggler I know of in the circus by the name of Sergey Ignatov Jr. I'm nto a fan of the circus but that doesn't mean that I think everyone who juggles in the circus is part of a "hack act".

Posted:19th Dec 2005ok, firstly: I have been doing diabolo, juggling, etc., for most of my life (I'm 18), and it's only been in the last 2-3yrs that I have been aware of the WJF and IJA (I still don't know a huge amount about them), however, I have always (since I started juggling) had assumptions made about me being or wanting to be in a circus.

My point is that even though I didn't know about all these juggling federations and associations, and the 'sporty' side of juggling, never, in my memory, did I make the assumption that because I juggled it meant I should/would be in a circus.

So saying "ifsomeone doesn't know about juggling competitions such as the IJA or WJF, they aoutomatically think you're in the circus or think you should get a job in the circus" (Pre) is a pretty pointless analysis of a supposedly negative situation that you claim to be trying to resolve.

I don't have any answers for the problem of 'ignorant non-jugglers', but what I do reckon is that you sit down and have a really good think about what you're saying (like where I quoted you above), and come up with an argument that has some logic.

"And about my terrible arguements, If they were really bad arguements do you think that you would have to make a post to let people know that they are bad. No I am not "tongue tied" I am a born debater I had a teacher come up to me after an anoucement about a debate group. He really wanted me to go. why do you think? I people always argue with me If i have enough facts they will lose 100% of the time. arguing is my middle name next to fire. and anyway hexagonic what is your profession I can tell that you are not an lawyer by your arguements. let me guess you work at a gas station". (Pre).

You say you are good at debate. Is this true? Or are you just good at arguing? Because I like to think I'm alright at both, and I reckon you could improve on your debate skills by not wasting your time writing the above quote, which I see as an unneccassary personal insult. And sort some of your ideas out.

I'd welcome constructive criticisms on my debate/argument skills, but it is off topic really so I'm gonna leave it there.