The reason the community went down hill is not due to LFG/LFR/CRZ, the reason the community went down hill is because threads like this would rather argue about the problem then work to fix it. Join a dungeon, talk with people during it, you will find some may actually answer you and enjoy the conversation. Now and then you will gain dickbags that don't, that is like, just like how sometimes I bump into a polite individual on the sidewalk and other times a guy that slams a door in my face as I walk up. Introverting myself and blaming the "system" or the "community" does not fix anything, being polite and letting the dickbags roll off me DOES.

You can't even use "But I will never see them again!" as an excuse, because CRZ and BattleTags exist. You like that healer you just grouped with, click his portrait and invite him to be friends. You can group again.

I will say it one more time. We need to be the ones to fix the community. The issue is we have to many people complaining about the problem, only to log in later, join a LFG, never say a word, and then blame the other four people as anti-social dickbags rather then realizing you never said anything either.

The reason the community went down hill is not due to LFG/LFR/CRZ, the reason the community went down hill is because threads like this would rather argue about the problem then work to fix it. Join a dungeon, talk with people during it, you will find some may actually answer you and enjoy the conversation. Now and then you will gain dickbags that don't, that is like, just like how sometimes I bump into a polite individual on the sidewalk and other times a guy that slams a door in my face as I walk up. Introverting myself and blaming the "system" or the "community" does not fix anything, being polite and letting the dickbags roll off me DOES.

You can't even use "But I will never see them again!" as an excuse, because CRZ and BattleTags exist. You like that healer you just grouped with, click his portrait and invite him to be friends. You can group again.

I will say it one more time. We need to be the ones to fix the community. The issue is we have to many people complaining about the problem, only to log in later, join a LFG, never say a word, and then blame the other four people as anti-social dickbags rather then realizing you never said anything either.

As much as I agree with you completely, I also think its not something the community alone can just fix entirely, Blizzard has added many features that have hindered the effort for having a better community, not so much because it deliberately harms the effort, but because it removes constraints and boundaries that we use to actually conserve and organize those communities (essentially, whenever we make a wall to create and maintain a community amongst ourselves, blizzard introduces a feature that breaks it down altogether).

I believe blizzard also needs to contribute some effort into the matter, adding better methods to manage people we would rather not speak to again is a good measure that would help.

Or better yet, allowing us to choose if we want to join a random pug cross realm or within realm, and being able to track or blacklist players from across servers we encounter as well (though technical limitations may prevent this).

Not only that, Blizzard's overall design of the game HEAVILY hinders the need or desire to play with other players, everything related to grouping has a hinderance on it.

-You cannot gain loot or EXP from marked targets unless you are in a group.
BUT
-If you are in a group, you must share the loot with the party, and only gain a fraction of the exp from the mob killed

in either scenario, the individual is at a disadvantage unless they are alone and are first to the target, which promotes an "every man for himelf" attitude that persists into actual cooperative play in other aspects of the game.

that type of gameplay needs to slowly be weeded out. Let players get exp from tagged kills, let them get personalized loot for that matter, it doesnt hurt anyone else in the large scope of gameplay.

Ultimately, Blizzard adds very little incentive to actually help anyone but yourself, and while I wish everyone would be kind enough to do that on their own merit, that's not the case overall.

TLR, Blizzard's overall design regarding team play is actually a hindrance upon itself, and it breeds selfishness which persists into the larger scope of the game.

I believe blizzard also needs to contribute some effort into the matter, adding better methods to manage people we would rather not speak to again is a good measure that would help.

I agree with this. Even some small small UI changes would really help to improve the community experience. For example, why not at the end of each random dungeon pop up a window (similar to the loot window) that allows you to add any of your party members to your Friends/RealID list, or put them on a blacklist/ignore? The recipient would of course need to agree before becoming RealID friends. Sure it's easy to just to right click the portrait blah blah, etc etc but having a prompt pop up well...prompts someone to actually do it. Will everyone? Of course not, but it's such a simple thing that would surely help. Something else would need to take place in LFR though, as I don't think anyone would be thrilled about having a prompt with 24 names pop up

Similarly, and I'm sure this horse has been beaten to death, there should really be an option to group up with your realm or your battlegroup. This is a bit harder to implement than a simple UI change, but it would really open up some options and let you meet friends closer to "home". It would help to return the sense of community that people long for from vanilla/BC, while adding the spectacular quality-of-life change that LFD introduced in the first place. Longer queue times of course, but better than spamming in trade like you used to do. And at the end of the dungeon, same thing. Prompt to add friends or blacklist enemies. Beautiful.

That could lead to people running and tagging mobs and leeching XP in some areas, which is imo a bad idea.
It looks like you underestimate the amount of a-holes in the game

I was expecting someone to point that one out, and I agree that it would be a problem, perhaps adding a % damage done threshold would help reduce that problem, and it is definitely something that would need tinkering, but if you consider the current alternative, i think it would be better anyways.

there are FAR more people willing to sit there and let you die to just collect one kill from a mob than even people who would hit the target for a few swings and let you kill it yourself, some damage is better than none imo.

That could lead to people running and tagging mobs and leeching XP in some areas, which is imo a bad idea.
It looks like you underestimate the amount of a-holes in the game

What difference does it make to me if someoneone tags stuff, as long as I get exp and loot, when I do golden lotus quests some people just put a dot on an elite mob im downing and run off, does it bother me, not at all why should I care im killing it anyway. Now if someone was to run around tagging mobs and hoping other people then do the work for them, well thats easy just dont attack and let him over aggro and die. Really isnt an issue in GW2, its not an issue in WoW when you can mob share either.

The only time i enjoy seeing people who arent in my party is when elite mobs need to be killed, like those ones for the firelands dailies or golden lotus dailies.

That could lead to people running and tagging mobs and leeching XP in some areas, which is imo a bad idea.
It looks like you underestimate the amount of a-holes in the game

It really isn't. The people that would do that are the same people that would ignore you if they didn't get anything from it. Instead a lot more people will see an incentive to assist other players. In addition it will really help against situations where there's too many players for respawn rates to handle it properly. If nothing else it will improve the flow.

What difference does it make to me if someoneone tags stuff, as long as I get exp and loot, when I do golden lotus quests some people just put a dot on an elite mob im downing and run off, does it bother me, not at all why should I care im killing it anyway. Now if someone was to run around tagging mobs and hoping other people then do the work for them, well thats easy just dont attack and let him over aggro and die. Really isnt an issue in GW2, its not an issue in WoW when you can mob share either.

The only time i enjoy seeing people who arent in my party is when elite mobs need to be killed, like those ones for the firelands dailies or golden lotus dailies.

This is completely true. It works in every game that has it, Rift, GW2, and LotRO are prime examples. I expect Blizz will come around on it, but not until the next xpac.

They've even stated they don't like the feeling that you are competing with everyone around you instead of working together. It's only a matter of time. I think people would complain about the daily design far less if a group effort of whoever is there can just run around and smash it out...you know...like heroes would do anyways.

Crz is fine its nice seeing other players quest. LFR and LFD don't matter because oh my god you don't get the best gear in the game from them. Same thing for battlegrounds if they go into a pug or guild raid. They will get kicked instantly stop hating on things just to hate.

---------- Post added 2012-12-31 at 09:09 AM ----------

Only thing that got worse is player versus player cata wasn't that bad but mist of pandaria pvp is pretty bad atm nothing that can be fixed thou.

Does kind of illustrate a gigantic huge problem with the community, and why these things had to be made, though.

---------- Post added 2012-12-31 at 06:48 PM ----------

Originally Posted by LolretKJ

While I agree with you, on my realm at least during Vanilla and TBC, those assholes, trolls, and shitbags were indeed known for being trolls, assholes, and shitbags. Consequently they never got invites to anything going on.

Aren't they still? It's not like people actually invite people into non-LF content all willy nilly. If anything, it's gotten monstrously worse with time.

---------- Post added 2012-12-31 at 06:50 PM ----------

Originally Posted by ManjiSanji

I've been playing since a few days after Vanilla launch, and I can confidently say this:

The only time the greater populace of WoW doesn't act like complete assholes is when things are new and undiscovered. The early game of WoW and the beginning of each expansion are the only times this really happens, and it's because everybody is on roughly even ground.

No other time is an exception. Servers may be slightly different in asshole volume ratios, but overall, it's the same.

Logically, people measure their value over others as a matter of their competence or amount of time spent playing the current content or the implied power of their gear equipped. By-and-large, they treat others based on these factors. It happened in Vanilla, it happened in BC, it happened in Wrath, it happened in Cataclysm, and it's happening now.

The best thing that can be done is try to reverse this by being decent to people. The problem isn't the game, some feature of the game, a period of time in the game or anything like that; it's cultural, and one we, as players, must fix.

This is exactly it, EXACTLY it. I'd even go as to make an entirely unfounded hypothesis that most of the people who complain about this, at least on some level, have treated certain people like shit, felt they were above someone, or probably have some sort of opinion on "fails" or "bads" or some nonsense.

---------- Post added 2012-12-31 at 06:59 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Yig

8 years of WOW here and I would say the community isn't as bad as people make it seem. It's worse in that the social aspects are much "colder" and people are less prone to forming friendships and playing with each other for months or years on end than they used to be, but the community has not gotten to be more aggressive or "dickish" than it used to be.

But something I'd say which creates the illusion that it is worse is that the people who are jerks are a special kind of jerk which is actually worse in a way than they used to be. You get a lot more people who treat everyone else like pieces of meat that are there for their own use, where as jerks just use to be people who would steal or be bullies. You also get more people now defending antisocial behavior and bullying as if the problem isn't a problem. But there have been an increase in people who will stand up to these people as well as the years have passed.

But PUGs were always a word that spawned groans from people and there have always been assholes and bullies. I think the community, while being colder and more distant now without server communities, actually has more random people who are randomly pleasant and nice. They just don't become lasting friendships or acquaintances anymore like they used to.

The general forum used to be a forum that moved to a new page from traffic in minutes, almost 24/7, and as bad as it looks now, it was a lot worse. It used to be something roughly like 99% bad attitudes and people who mocked and bullied anyone who disagreed with them. Now it's more like 60% bad and you find a lot more people willing to defend others and stand up to people who are being bullies it's seems like to me.

As an example, it used to be you'd see a thread with dozens and dozens of people mocking RP servers and role players with only 1 or 2 people standing up for others and trying to explain the reality of the situation. Now you see more people defending stuff like that while there are only a few assholes mocking and belittling RPers or around the same amount of people mocking as there are defending. It used to be you'd see dozens of threads mocking Night Elf players as girly, now you see more people lamenting on the loss of Night Elves' aggression and savagery than you do people making night elves out to be feminine men (though blood elves helped to take some of the weight there :P)

These have been anecdotal observations brought to you by me.

---------- Post added 2012-12-31 at 09:22 AM ----------

Not in my experience at all. Battlegrounds were always a cesspit where one or two jerks would try to tell everyone else what to do and then explode and gripe the whole team out for not listening to them, or they would tell others how dumb they were, in various phrases and colorful metaphors and memes.

The community used to be better with servers in general for making friends and developing a warm social environment, but BGs were where people got really mean, battlegroups or not.

A big problem with the community, especially THIS community, as in MMOC's community, is that they seemingly can't separate a bad person from a bad player, and treat them universally with the same contempt and vitriol. Moreover, they have a thin line in which they separate "acceptable" and "not acceptable". The community has so many problems, and Blizzard, frankly, sees zero problems with it.

---------- Post added 2012-12-31 at 07:09 PM ----------

Originally Posted by aikoyamamato

I agree with this. Even some small small UI changes would really help to improve the community experience. For example, why not at the end of each random dungeon pop up a window (similar to the loot window) that allows you to add any of your party members to your Friends/RealID list, or put them on a blacklist/ignore? The recipient would of course need to agree before becoming RealID friends. Sure it's easy to just to right click the portrait blah blah, etc etc but having a prompt pop up well...prompts someone to actually do it. Will everyone? Of course not, but it's such a simple thing that would surely help. Something else would need to take place in LFR though, as I don't think anyone would be thrilled about having a prompt with 24 names pop up

Similarly, and I'm sure this horse has been beaten to death, there should really be an option to group up with your realm or your battlegroup. This is a bit harder to implement than a simple UI change, but it would really open up some options and let you meet friends closer to "home". It would help to return the sense of community that people long for from vanilla/BC, while adding the spectacular quality-of-life change that LFD introduced in the first place. Longer queue times of course, but better than spamming in trade like you used to do. And at the end of the dungeon, same thing. Prompt to add friends or blacklist enemies. Beautiful.

I really, really, really like this idea. It's something several XBOX Live games do after matches. Where it shows the players, let's you add them as friends, or avoid them, and depending on that, it aggregates a star score. Most everyone on XBOX Live will wind up with a 5 star score, so if you see someone who isn't new, and has low stars, or ANYTHING below three, you sure as hell know that person isn't swell.

Another thing they could really, really work on, is their original Raid finder tool, the one that just lets you list yourself available for normal raids/RBGs. Turn that into a sort of group finder, like the old one, but better, to find people who want to do certain content with people. Maybe have options like "Requires voice chat" "Requires so and so". "Requires hat", whatever. Keep that same realm only, and make it actually intuitive instead of worthless, and I bet you'd see a rise in people pugging content and RBGs

What difference does it make to me if someoneone tags stuff, as long as I get exp and loot, when I do golden lotus quests some people just put a dot on an elite mob im downing and run off, does it bother me, not at all why should I care im killing it anyway. Now if someone was to run around tagging mobs and hoping other people then do the work for them, well thats easy just dont attack and let him over aggro and die. Really isnt an issue in GW2, its not an issue in WoW when you can mob share either.

Oh, so you don't mind that people will bot the heck out of that feature?
Well, on my own level, it bothers me.

---------- Post added 2012-12-31 at 08:42 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Blapis

It works pretty well IRL.

Not in my country, we have data protection laws precisely for that.

---------- Post added 2012-12-31 at 08:44 PM ----------

Originally Posted by nameuser

THE COMMUNITY BECOMES WHAT THE GAME BECOMES.

Nope, it's the other way around. The society (and specifically, its loss of structure and the rise of individualism) is the cause and the game is the consequence, not the other way around.

You ran BRC with the group from trade chat. You're level 53 and playing your first character and so are they. You have been in here for 2 hours and not even half way done. You might wipe a couple times, people make mistakes.

People appologize in chat and no one is getting kicked and people just laugh it off. An item drops, 3 people can use it. 1 person wins and the other two does not suddenly get the massive feel of entitlement over it and kick the winner.

Everyone on the server knew eachother, everyone had a rep for something they have done in the past and everyone knows how good of a person/player that guy standing afk in ironforge is.

Nobody gave a fuck if you did low damage, nobody cared if you sat in AV all day or raided naxx 7 days a week.
Nobody gave a fuck if you got carried through Karazhan to free epix by some guild that needed a last dps.

Selfish assholes that is 80% of the community these days are the complete opposite of what I described now.

I was a raider in TBC, still am now. I did not raid in vanilla as I was totally new. I dinged 60 on my main a few months before TBC was released and all I did was UBRS/Scholomance and battlegrounds.

I sit now in my chair sipping on some rum'ncoke thinking of what happened to this game. I think of how the game went to shit, where it actually did not but the community did. I blame server changes and cross realm dungeons. They were a good concept yes, but those things are what ruined this games "feel"

The game is fine, the community is not.

/rant off

for the 90th time cross realm dungeons did not destroy any sense of community..People making artificial ilvl gating to get into pugs for said dungeons or raids did.