Finally saw the episode last night. Awesome. They made the battle look pretty much as cool as possible under their time and budgetary constraints, and kept it very true to source material. Helps that the author of the books wrote this episode. No dicking around in the Riverlands, no Essos, no north of the wall...just the Blackwater in all it's glory. The wildfire explosion was really cool, wish I could have seen that live. I may quit my job and go be a pyrotechnics expert in Hollywood. Just blow shit up all day long and get paid for it.

You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves-----Abe Lincoln

Let me tell you, if any of you douchebag empty headed stuffed suit nanny politicians tries to fuck with my bacon, I’m going after you like a crazed chimpanzee on bath salts. -----Lars

They made the battle look pretty much as cool as possible under their time and budgetary constraints, and kept it very true to source material.

Except for, you know, the chain that Tyrion spent half the book making and the other characters spent half the book asking him why the hell he was having it made at the expense of other things. I know they had budgetary constraints but the chain directly shows how much smarter Tyrion was than everyone else. On TV, it just showed him telling the Alchemist's that they're making Wildfire for him instead of Cersei which shows... nothing, just continuing a plan that was already in place.

Of course, directly after the battle everyone forgot about the chain and Tyrion's part so maybe they just wanted to cut out the middle man.

Cutting out the chain was about budget for sure, I mean they had to beg HBO for the extra money to do what they DID. But in the grand scheme of things, the chain really isn't that important when you think about it. All viewers already know that Tyrion is smarter than the rest, they didn't need the chain to prove it.

Besides, it would have escalated not only the cost of this episode, but all the others as well. They would have had to write in and cast all the extra scenes where Tyrion talks to people about the chain, etc.

All they had to do was make sure that a good chunk of Stannis' ships were destroyed by the fire, which they did. Not only that, but GRRM wrote the episode, and I'd imagine if he really felt it had to stay, it would have in some shape or form.

They made the battle look pretty much as cool as possible under their time and budgetary constraints, and kept it very true to source material.

Except for, you know, the chain that Tyrion spent half the book making and the other characters spent half the book asking him why the hell he was having it made at the expense of other things. I know they had budgetary constraints but the chain directly shows how much smarter Tyrion was than everyone else. On TV, it just showed him telling the Alchemist's that they're making Wildfire for him instead of Cersei which shows... nothing, just continuing a plan that was already in place.

Of course, directly after the battle everyone forgot about the chain and Tyrion's part so maybe they just wanted to cut out the middle man.

If you take it as an individual episode, it stayed pretty true. The chain was already out. It was made pretty clear that the half man was both the architect and hero of the battle, chain or no chain.

You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves-----Abe Lincoln

Let me tell you, if any of you douchebag empty headed stuffed suit nanny politicians tries to fuck with my bacon, I’m going after you like a crazed chimpanzee on bath salts. -----Lars

Govbarney wrote:Fucking shit was that good . It's a god damn felony I have to wait a year for season 3.

Yeah, that was pretty freaking awesome...especially the baby dragons lighting up the warlock.

But WTF happened to Winterfell???? I figured the Greyjoy dicks were going to give up Theon, take their leave, and let the bastard bannerman have it...and then I see that it's been set aflame???

Seriously pissed that it'll take another year before these questions get answered...although I'll probably read the third book before then (finishing the first now, and have the second loaded on the iPad).

mitch wrote:Yeah, that was pretty freaking awesome...especially the baby dragons lighting up the warlock.

But WTF happened to Winterfell???? I figured the Greyjoy dicks were going to give up Theon, take their leave, and let the bastard bannerman have it...and then I see that it's been set aflame???

Seriously pissed that it'll take another year before these questions get answered...although I'll probably read the third book before then (finishing the first now, and have the second loaded on the iPad).

I am really confused about Winterfell as well. My only guess is the "bastered" son who was supposed to rescue the city, had a change of allegiance and decided to sack it.

"I don't think they're building chemical weapons in Berea. But they might be. I can't say for sure."Chuck Klosterman

mitch wrote:Yeah, that was pretty freaking awesome...especially the baby dragons lighting up the warlock.

But WTF happened to Winterfell???? I figured the Greyjoy dicks were going to give up Theon, take their leave, and let the bastard bannerman have it...and then I see that it's been set aflame???

Seriously pissed that it'll take another year before these questions get answered...although I'll probably read the third book before then (finishing the first now, and have the second loaded on the iPad).

I am really confused about Winterfell as well. My only guess is the "bastered" son who was supposed to rescue the city, had a change of allegiance and decided to sack it.

In the books it's clear what happened, so if you read the 2nd book you'll be up to speed. In the show though, it makes it seem like the Ironborn decided to torch the place on their way out.

I was dissapointed overall in the finale, but probably just because I read the book. The House of the Undying was incredibly watered down, which I expected but was still dissapointing. Dany saw a lot more stuff than just Drogo, both that explain some of the past and offer glimpses into the future. Two of the best carachters in the books were supposed to be with Dany by now, and they're nowhere to be seen. The confusion regarding Winterfell. Varys scheming to make a whore his "partner" is probably the dumbest thing they've done in the entire series.

I still love it overall, but am really wondering where they're going with some of these changes.

You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves-----Abe Lincoln

Let me tell you, if any of you douchebag empty headed stuffed suit nanny politicians tries to fuck with my bacon, I’m going after you like a crazed chimpanzee on bath salts. -----Lars

mitch wrote:Yeah, that was pretty freaking awesome...especially the baby dragons lighting up the warlock.

But WTF happened to Winterfell???? I figured the Greyjoy dicks were going to give up Theon, take their leave, and let the bastard bannerman have it...and then I see that it's been set aflame???

Seriously pissed that it'll take another year before these questions get answered...although I'll probably read the third book before then (finishing the first now, and have the second loaded on the iPad).

I am really confused about Winterfell as well. My only guess is the "bastered" son who was supposed to rescue the city, had a change of allegiance and decided to sack it.

In the books it's clear what happened, so if you read the 2nd book you'll be up to speed. In the show though, it makes it seem like the Ironborn decided to torch the place on their way out.

I was dissapointed overall in the finale, but probably just because I read the book. The House of the Undying was incredibly watered down, which I expected but was still dissapointing. Dany saw a lot more stuff than just Drogo, both that explain some of the past and offer glimpses into the future. Two of the best carachters in the books were supposed to be with Dany by now, and they're nowhere to be seen. The confusion regarding Winterfell. Varys scheming to make a whore his "partner" is probably the dumbest thing they've done in the entire series.

I still love it overall, but am really wondering where they're going with some of these changes.

It's consensus by a bunch of reviewers the visions of the future in the House of the Undying were cut for two reasons: Budget and too spoilery. The book was able to foreshadow without spoiling -- a little tougher to do on screen sometimes.

I have a feeling the Varys-whore thing is an attempt to not have to cast more people into the show, so again, budget. The whore will fill the role of a few other characters for the payoffs at the end of Book 3 and 5 is my guess.

My guess with the House of the Undying is that actually visually showing some of the visions that Dany had in the book would either be way too spoiler-y or way too confusing, depending on the vision. Reading about them is different than actually seeing them.

Non-book readers would see -- these aren't really spoilers -- the woman getting raped by 4 little men and be like WTF??? Same with Rhaegar/Elia/Aegon, they'd be like "who the hell is that now?" They wouldn't know the house with the red door or get any of the imagery like the blue flower on the ice, etc.

And they certainly couldn't show when she is basically foretold of the ~~HUGE spoiler in white between these marks >> Red Wedding, as people would surely spot that and completely spoil next season's "Ned" moment. >> /end spoiler.

If you mean Arstan and Strong Belwas, I'm sure they'll have them show up when she goes to buy her ship. They didn't show up in the books until after the HotU anyway.

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The Winterfell confusion, I'm pretty sure that was intentional. They want people to wonder about the whom and why of the Winterfell sacking and what happened to Theon all the way up until next season.

Yeah, I understand and both of you make completely valid points. I guess I just wanted to see it. Not sure if the spoiler you allude to would have been picked up on or not. One alternate option is they could have put in NEW potential spoilers/visions. The Red Keep looked awfully burned by dragonfire to me, no? Dany getting close to the throne, but never actually touching it. Dany coming out of the tunnel under the wall could have been a replacement for the blue rose, etc.

Interested to hear what CTD thought, especially about the end. He's been waiting for the White Walkers to reappear since the 1st 10 min of the series, right?

I guess it's just strange to me that they'd take some things out of the 3rd book and put them in the 2nd season, then push some things out of the 2nd book to the 3rd season. I wanted Dany to meet Arstan. Like I said, it's great TV and I still enjoy it, so I guess I'm just picking nits here. It boils down mostly to impatience on my part, I suppose :)

Can't wait for season 3. These should be 12-15 episode seasons.

You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves-----Abe Lincoln

Let me tell you, if any of you douchebag empty headed stuffed suit nanny politicians tries to fuck with my bacon, I’m going after you like a crazed chimpanzee on bath salts. -----Lars

I never had the urge to read the books until last night. I enjoyed the show to much to have it spoiled by the books. My plan always was to read the books after the show ended /got canceled. But after last night I just don't think I have it in me to wait till April to get my GOT fix again. And aside from Breaking Bad it just doesn't look like there will be any good TV between Mad Men ending next week, and Boardwalk's season premiere in the fall.

"I don't think they're building chemical weapons in Berea. But they might be. I can't say for sure."Chuck Klosterman

gotribe31 wrote:Yeah, I understand and both of you make completely valid points. I guess I just wanted to see it. Not sure if the spoiler you allude to would have been picked up on or not.

Yeah, I was let down a little bit by the HotU in the very minute I saw it, but then I realized why and it wasn't so bad. Still, would have liked to have seen the actual Undying and the weirdness surrounding them. But that would have been big on the budget, I guess.

The spoiler would have been picked up on by at least a few people (especially if they showed one specific part of it), so I bet they didn't want to even take a chance.

gotribe31 wrote:One alternate option is they could have put in NEW potential spoilers/visions. The Red Keep looked awfully burned by dragonfire to me, no? Dany getting close to the throne, but never actually touching it. Dany coming out of the tunnel under the wall could have been a replacement for the blue rose, etc.

This is very possible also. I wasn't sure if the throne room looked burnt or just plain frozen. The wall part most definitely had the same intended meaning as the blue rose, just not the "proof" of the backstory, lol.

Was I the only book reader that was highly amused that they kept in the part with Tywin's horse taking a crap in the throne room?

EW... your wife may be a bit confused if she just goes straight to the 3rd book, lol. There's so so so so much more detail to the books that the show leaves out. I'd at least read the 2nd first.

The "fantasy" aspect really turned me off originally as well. I just kept thinking it was another 'lord of the rings', which I have a deep seated hatred of.

I didn't watch a episode until a friend literally begged me, and that was well after the first season ended. Next thing I knew that show was like crack cocaine to me. I burned through the entire first season in less then two weeks.

I am a guy who gets real anal about historical accuracy when it comes to works of non-fiction. With this show I am able to totally turn that OCD part of my brain off, its oddly relaxing, and entertaining.

"I don't think they're building chemical weapons in Berea. But they might be. I can't say for sure."Chuck Klosterman

I actually really liked the first season as a first season, but I thought it set up the show to become a real character/reality development.

Instead the second season hits you (as a non-reader) as a clip show. I don't and won't give a fuck about any character in that show (OH THE KID IS MEAN!!!! AND THE HOUND TRIED TO GET LAID!!!!), I can't even put down ten words on paper regarding what makes any of them interesting. It is just HBO and the writers telling new viewers to fuck off but still winning in the ratings, and kudos to them for that.

The show is really not good TV and I stand by that. Mad Men airing at the same time just drives that home more and more.

You just watched a ten hour season, how much time or real development did the little girl get?

The Nymph got some and they tried to play hard with him and the whore, but did he EVER get a real, meaningful story finished? He's the LBJ of new TV,,,, a fucking whore the never gives you the complete story,

Overall, the 2nd season was pretty good. The issue is that the best parts of the 2nd book were the Battle of the Blackwater, the House of the Undying, and the Jon Snow ranging stuff north of the Wall. For me, it's not nearly as good as books 1 or 3. And all three of those exciting parts were never going to translate perfectly to the screen, due to lack of $$ or lack of a good way to translate the prophecies in the House from text to show. So yeah, there are loose ends in the character development, because the character's aren't fully developed. We're through book two of a seven book series, and the seven book series itself is only through book five. How do you expect a complete, meaningful story to be finished at the end of the 2nd season/book?

You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves-----Abe Lincoln

Let me tell you, if any of you douchebag empty headed stuffed suit nanny politicians tries to fuck with my bacon, I’m going after you like a crazed chimpanzee on bath salts. -----Lars

gotribe31 wrote:Overall, the 2nd season was pretty good. The issue is that the best parts of the 2nd book were the Battle of the Blackwater, the House of the Undying, and the Jon Snow ranging stuff north of the Wall. For me, it's not nearly as good as books 1 or 3. And all three of those exciting parts were never going to translate perfectly to the screen, due to lack of $$ or lack of a good way to translate the prophecies in the House from text to show. So yeah, there are loose ends in the character development, because the character's aren't fully developed. We're through book two of a seven book series, and the seven book series itself is only through book five. How do you expect a complete, meaningful story to be finished at the end of the 2nd season/book?

Book 3 has two events which are clearly head-and-shoulders bigger than anything Book 2 had to offer (book readers know what I'm talking about). Since the show came out, I've just been hoping it stayed on long enough to get through Book 3. But I was somewhat impressed by how they took a bland book/season like Book 2 and made it solid viewing.

Their real challenge will come when they have to make Book 4/Season 5, but that's too far away for me to care about.

Hikohadon wrote:Their real challenge will come when they have to make Book 4/Season 5, but that's too far away for me to care about.

I imagine they will cut out some of the most extraneous stuff and just combine Books 4 & 5, since it all happens at the same time anyway. There's no way they could or would go a season without 3 of the central characters like would happen if they'd just do Book 4 for Season 5.

For all the non-book readers... Book 3 will probably take up 2 entire seasons.

Just thinking about all the stuff we'll get to see is giving me goosebumps.

Lots of Book 3 spoilers in while below:

Sam killing the Other and getting away

Dany & her dragons destroy Astapor, her khalasar grows by tens of thousands

Yeah, book three is really amazing. I had forgotten that ALL of that stuf happens in the same book. Thank God e0 won't be watching by then and we can have a discussion about how it adapts to TV without having to deal with him.

I assume they do 2 seasons for book 3, and then 2 seasons for books 4/5 but combined chronologically rather than having them set apart by geography. There's a list out there of how to read books 4/5 together as one massive book rather than having to set them apart, so I'd assume that for TV they'll basically go that route. Which will help makes those books/seasons MUCH better overall.

You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves-----Abe Lincoln

Let me tell you, if any of you douchebag empty headed stuffed suit nanny politicians tries to fuck with my bacon, I’m going after you like a crazed chimpanzee on bath salts. -----Lars

Yeah, I understand GRRM's point about not wanting to put HALF of everyone's story in each book and instead deciding to put ALL of half the people's story in each book. It just sucks that he left 3+ of the main main main characters til the 2nd in what would have been one gigantic book.

I also agree that they'll combine Books 4 & 5 and run it over 2 seasons, likely seasoned liberally with liberties. That's when I not only won't mind but will embrace any changes they make to improve the product. Many of the stories grind to almost a halt in those 2 books, especially Dany. Very frustrating after so much happens in Book 3, almost nothing of note happens in 4 & 5.