(18-12-2012 05:47 AM)bemore Wrote: From some of the posts I have read these last few days relating to this I am quite surprised at how easy it sounds to purchase a gun in some states of america.

In the UK you need to obtain a license, you need to justify the reasons why you want it, you need to get references off the land owners where you state you will normally be firing the gun.

The police check all of your medical records, if you have any type of mental illness (including depression) then the chances are more likely you will be refused. You need to purchase a police approved strong box where you store your guns and ammunition and it has to be either bolted/secured to the floor or the wall and the police come out and inspect your house and have a chat with you about gun ownership.

It can be a very lengthy process.

Depending on the state you live in, it can take as little as 15 minutes. Some states require waiting periods of up to two weeks, others do not.

The usual (legal) process for buying a gun in the United States (and as someone who's bought 20 guns and been shooting for over 30 years now, I've done many times) is as follows.

1) Arrive at an approved FFL dealer (gunshop), select a particular Title I firearm from his wares and make tell the staff you want to buy said gun.

2). The dealer then gives you a copy of BATFE Form 4473. A one page form, which you must fill out with your full name, address, date of birth, social security number, height, weight, hair color, and eye color. You must also present a state issued photo ID whose information matches that you filled out on Form 4473. It then asks you a series of yes/no questions that you must then answer truthfully under penalty of perjury.

Are you the lawful owner of this firearm?
Are you a convicted felon?
Are you an illegal alien?
Are you a fugitive from justice?
Have you been adjudicated mentally defective or confined to a mental institution?
Were you Dishonorably Discharged from the US Armed Forces?
Have you renounced your US Citizenship?
Do you have a warrant issued for your arrest?
Are you currently using marijuana or other illegal drugs?
Are you subject to a court order for harassment or stalking?
Have you been convicted of, or are you facing criminal prosecution for, domestic violence?

If you answered yes to any question other than the first, you are disqualified and the sale is denied.

If the dealer verifies the information on your copy of Form 4473, he then takes it with him and makes a telephone call to The National Instant Criminal Background Check system (NICS), which uses the FBI's national crime information index to verify your answers on Form 4473.

By federal law NICS is required to give the buyer an answer in 3 days or less, but, for every gun I've purchased, it only took about 3 minutes to clear.

4) Once the dealer receives a 'proceed' response from NICS, the buyer pays the price set be the FFL plus applicable taxes and the firearm now belongs to them.

Contrast this with buying a cell phone which takes about an hour to set up and make ready.

Title II NFA guns ie machine guns, suppressors, SBRs, ODDs are also still for sale but must be purchased from a Class III dealer. These require a more elaborate background check, are for sale only in certain states, sometimes subject to the approval of the county sheriffs office and are charged a $200 federal tax at time of purchase. You must settle for a used machine gun as registry of a new transferable full auto ended in 1986. As there is a limited supply of full autos on the market, they are prohibitively expensive. A civilian transferable M-16 or MP5 will cost over $20,000 and some of the rarer guns in the NFA system, like an M249 SAW or a GE M134 minigun can cost over $400,000!

"IN THRUST WE TRUST"

"We were conservative Jews and that meant we obeyed God's Commandments until His rules became a royal pain in the ass."

This is a far as I've gotten in my reasoning on this issue. While I firmly support an individual right to own weapons that right comes with great responsibility.

I think resources would be better spent by getting mentally ill people the help they need. As a society I think we fail totally on this score. We let too many people fall through the cracks.

As for making it manadatory for people to join a gun club and hopefully observing issues there, I doubt that the average person is qualified to make a diagnosis of mental disorders. How many times have we heard a statement like "I don't believe he could do something like this" after a violent act. What if somebody lives in an area where they do not have access to one?

I do think the gun show loophole needs to be closed. I would also like to see it mandated that any weapon is stored with a trigger lock or in a safe. That does not infringe on rights and makes unauthiorized use of the weapon more difficult.

I don't like the tax scheme to buy them. Training is always a good thing and I would support people taking a safety class every 5 years.

" Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous."
David Hume

(18-12-2012 10:49 AM)KidCharlemagne1962 Wrote: This is a far as I've gotten in my reasoning on this issue. While I firmly support an individual right to own weapons that right comes with great responsibility.

I think resources would be better spent by getting mentally ill people the help they need. As a society I think we fail totally on this score. We let too many people fall through the cracks.

As for making it manadatory for people to join a gun club and hopefully observing issues there, I doubt that the average person is qualified to make a diagnosis of mental disorders. How many times have we heard a statement like "I don't believe he could do something like this" after a violent act. What if somebody lives in an area where they do not have access to one?

I do think the gun show loophole needs to be closed. I would also like to see it mandated that any weapon is stored with a trigger lock or in a safe. That does not infringe on rights and makes unauthiorized use of the weapon more difficult.

FFLs still have to do everything they normally do at guns shows.

Do you realize how insane it is to"mandate stored with a trigger lock"? Every firearm already comes with a cable lock. A responsible person is going to secure the firearm no matter what laws you have, vice versa for retards.

(18-12-2012 10:49 AM)KidCharlemagne1962 Wrote: This is a far as I've gotten in my reasoning on this issue. While I firmly support an individual right to own weapons that right comes with great responsibility.

I think resources would be better spent by getting mentally ill people the help they need. As a society I think we fail totally on this score. We let too many people fall through the cracks.

As for making it manadatory for people to join a gun club and hopefully observing issues there, I doubt that the average person is qualified to make a diagnosis of mental disorders. How many times have we heard a statement like "I don't believe he could do something like this" after a violent act. What if somebody lives in an area where they do not have access to one?

I do think the gun show loophole needs to be closed. I would also like to see it mandated that any weapon is stored with a trigger lock or in a safe. That does not infringe on rights and makes unauthiorized use of the weapon more difficult.

FFLs still have to do everything they normally do at guns shows.

Do you realize how insane it is to"mandate stored with a trigger lock"? Every firearm already comes with a cable lock. A responsible person is going to secure the firearm no matter what laws you have, vice versa for retards.

Had a friend who went to a gun show. He was not a resident of that state. He was not allowed to buy a gun and the seller refused to sell to him. Then, it complete sight of the seller, and in auditory range, he asked the person behind him to purchase it for him. They did, and gave him the gun.

Loop, meet hole.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley

(18-12-2012 11:10 AM)TheBlackKnight Wrote: FFLs still have to do everything they normally do at guns shows.

Do you realize how insane it is to"mandate stored with a trigger lock"? Every firearm already comes with a cable lock. A responsible person is going to secure the firearm no matter what laws you have, vice versa for retards.

Had a friend who went to a gun show. He was not a resident of that state. He was not allowed to buy a gun and the seller refused to sell to him. Then, it complete sight of the seller, and in auditory range, he asked the person behind him to purchase it for him. They did, and gave him the gun.

Loop, meet hole.

I like your drive-by link showing how other countries who never had any kind of gun culture in the first place have cleaned things up.You should work for the Brady camp.

Thats not a loophole you couldnt get at ANY GUN STORE. It's called a straw purchase and it's illegal. I don't have those kind of people as friends.

(18-12-2012 11:34 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote: Had a friend who went to a gun show. He was not a resident of that state. He was not allowed to buy a gun and the seller refused to sell to him. Then, it complete sight of the seller, and in auditory range, he asked the person behind him to purchase it for him. They did, and gave him the gun.

Loop, meet hole.

I like your drive-by link showing how other countries who never had any kind of gun culture in the first place have cleaned things up.You should work for the Brady camp.

Thats not a loophole you couldnt get at ANY GUN STORE. It's called a straw purchase and it's illegal. I don't have those kind of people as friends.

Oh good, they are not your friends. That makes me feel much better about it.

Oh wait a minute, so the only country that seems to have a "gun problem" is...US? How fucking fascinating, tell me more.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley

(18-12-2012 11:54 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote: Oh wait a minute, so the only country that seems to have a "gun problem" is...US? How fucking fascinating, tell me more.

How about ALL OF CENTRAL AND SOUTH AMERICA.Which have pretty strict gun laws.See how that works out for them? Yet Canada to our north has more restrictive laws and way less crime. It's almost like the guns arnt the issue, its the whole picture,cultural even.

(18-12-2012 11:54 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote: Oh wait a minute, so the only country that seems to have a "gun problem" is...US? How fucking fascinating, tell me more.

How about ALL OF CENTRAL AND SOUTH AMERICA.Which have pretty strict gun laws.See how that works out for them? Yet Canada to our north has more restrictive laws and way less crime. It's almost like the guns arnt the issue, its the whole picture,cultural even.

Central and South America have very little government involvement in the lives of its people. Go to Costa Rica and see how well "small government" works for them. Picking impoverished nations to compare to a 1st world country on crime, murder, and gun rights is absurd anyways.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley