Just a few hours ago, Riot released a new, native Mac client for League of Legends; currently it only connects to the PBE (their test servers) as they do a final push of bug fixes and testing, but they have concrete plans to release a full client within a week or two.

Well, there has been a third-party client available since about a day after Riot canned the last League beta for Mac. It is stable and easy to use, so until Riot releases their official client, it is very usable. I use it on my Mini to spectate games while im playing or playing other games on my PC.

Well, there has been a third-party client available since about a day after Riot canned the last League beta for Mac. It is stable and easy to use, so until Riot releases their official client, it is very usable. I use it on my Mini to spectate games while im playing or playing other games on my PC.

I've used it as well, it's to complicated for them to set it up. I linked them all to it, but they didn't want it. Said rebooting was better

The "Cheap Knock Off" (hard to be a Knock-off when the founders of Riot are 1/3 of the development team of DotA) has roughly 20x the market share of its competitors combined. Riot made ~320 million last year, and the Season 3 prize pool quadrupled to 25 million - and that doesn't include the fact that 16 top teams in the EU, NA, and Asia (each) get a paid salary by Riot. Say what you will, it has succeeded in ways that DotA and HoN (which is a straight-up 100% identical "knock-off" of DotA - but, again, the founders were DotA devs trying to cash in just like Riot, so i dont hold that against them) never dreamed of. Riot at least had the good sense to mix up the formula to bring in new blood and introduce new game types (with the latest revamp, the 3v3 Twisted Treeline is actually a lot of fun and significantly different from the 5v5 classic style map, and Dominion is a great way to burn off 20 minutes while waiting for friends to finish a game. I actually think it requires more cohesive teamwork when played PvP)

Its certainly a different direction, with less counter-intuitive, griefing-friendly mechanics and also a massively less toxic and unfriendly community. Though, to be fair, its like saying LoL's community is like Arsenic and DotAs is like the radioactive fallout from a 20KT warhead.

I tried DotA once (way before League) The first time one of my team-mates killed me to - 'prevent them from getting you' - i decided id rather slit my wrists than play a game that incentivizes your own team to just end you rather than try to help you.

The "Cheap Knock Off" (hard to be a Knock-off when the founders of Riot are 1/3 of the development team of DotA) has roughly 20x the market share of its competitors combined. Riot made ~320 million last year, and the Season 3 prize pool quadrupled to 25 million - and that doesn't include the fact that 16 top teams in the EU, NA, and Asia (each) get a paid salary by Riot. Say what you will, it has succeeded in ways that DotA and HoN (which is a straight-up 100% identical "knock-off" of DotA - but, again, the founders were DotA devs trying to cash in just like Riot, so i dont hold that against them) never dreamed of. Riot at least had the good sense to mix up the formula to bring in new blood and introduce new game types (with the latest revamp, the 3v3 Twisted Treeline is actually a lot of fun and significantly different from the 5v5 classic style map, and Dominion is a great way to burn off 20 minutes while waiting for friends to finish a game. I actually think it requires more cohesive teamwork when played PvP)

Its certainly a different direction, with less counter-intuitive, griefing-friendly mechanics and also a massively less toxic and unfriendly community. Though, to be fair, its like saying LoL's community is like Arsenic and DotAs is like the radioactive fallout from a 20KT warhead.

I tried DotA once (way before League) The first time one of my team-mates killed me to - 'prevent them from getting you' - i decided id rather slit my wrists than play a game that incentivizes your own team to just end you rather than try to help you.

You realize wumpus is being sarcastic.

What your talking about in your last paragraph is called 'denying' it's actually a very interesting game mechanic that make's a lot of sense. When I play league it drives me nuts not being able to deny the other team objectives (towers, creep, etc.). League is definitely hugely popular (whether or not it's number 1 is debatable, it's currently the number 1 game with published stats, DotA1 however has no published numbers as it's just a mod, and it's known that the numbers in China alone are massive. Doesn't really matter which is more popular though).

Your also very biased, apparently all of these features are just "less counter-intuitive" and "greifing friendly" - the word your probably looking for is deeper game mechanics:- Terrain Levels - attacking uphill will increase your chances to miss your target- Courier - there is a courier you can use to ferry items back and forth between you and home base; this isn't free and must be purchased by a player - not doing so puts your team at a huge disadvantage, but the player who purchases it loses money he could be spending on items or consumables- Night vs Daytime - vision is reduced at night, and one enemy (Nightstalker) gets stronger at night- Creep Blocking - you can position yourself in front of creeps as they traverse the lane to slow them down, thereby making them fight enemy creep waves closer to your tower than the enemy's- Neutral Creep Stacking - you can stack jungle camps to make it so there are more to kill- Runes (somewhat mimiced by red and blue buffs in LoL) - runes spawn in one of two locations on the river, randomly, every two minutes- Denying - you can deny creeps, towers, and even TEAMMATES to lower XP and gold gain for the enemy team- Side Lane/Secret Shops - there is a shop in each side lane that sells a reduced number of items, as well as a secret shop that carries certain items you can not buy elsewhere- Long Lane/Short Lane - in LoL, each lane is of equal length between home base and towers; in DotA and Dota 2, they vary in length, giving one team an advantage, and the other team a disadvantage (and vice versa in the opposing lane). This plays a big part in which hero you decide to use in which lane- Map Inequality - to further expand on the equal lanes in LoL, the overall map is a copy of one side over to the other side. In DotA and Dota 2, the map is quite different depending on which jungle you are in- Teleport to Base - there are no free TP's to base; in DotA and Dota 2 you must buy scrolls- Monster Control/Microing - some heroes can summon controllable minions and some can gain control of neutral creeps/monsters; these pets can be micro-controlled and some have spells/abilities of their own- Item Abilities - there are a few items in LoL that have activated abilities, but in DotA and Dota 2, well over half of the items have activated abilities- Destructible Terrain - Some items and spells/abilites can remove trees and terrain from the map; they will respawn after a few minutes- Pulling - neutral jungle creeps can be leashed into a lane to fight enemy or allied creep waves, thereby removing aggro from any of them

To you those above features (list is from Wobblefoot in the DOTA2 thread) might just seem counter-intuitive and grief freindly, but in the end that's really just your point of view. What they definitely do is provide for a much deeper game (a game with more elements). As a regular player of both, I think I'm very justified in saying LoL is the 'easier' game - it's much easier to pick up and learn because they stripped so much out. It's essentially DOTA with the training wheels on. It's very fun, but the overall game elements are pretty shallow. I come from playing starcraft 2 very heavily online, and so coming to league from starcraft, make's league seem like a walk in the park.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying easier game = inferior game. I'm just saying recognize it for what it is, and don't pretend that there's not other games in the genre that offer a much deeper experience. Coming from Starcraft I recognize that one of the largest draws away from Starcraft is just how mentally exhaustive the game is. A lot of people don't like that and are looking for a much more casual experience.

What your talking about in your last paragraph is called 'denying' it's actually a very interesting game mechanic that make's a lot of sense. When I play league it drives me nuts not being able to deny the other team objectives (towers, creep, etc.). League is definitely hugely popular (whether or not it's number 1 is debatable, it's currently the number 1 game with published stats, DotA1 however has no published numbers as it's just a mod, and it's known that the numbers in China alone are massive. Doesn't really matter which is more popular though).

Your also very biased, apparently all of these features are just "less counter-intuitive" and "greifing friendly"

> I am only biased towards fun. The new forum system won't let me make more than like 3 quotes, so my responses will be after >

- the word your probably looking for is deeper game mechanics:

> Nope. You're brutally misconstruing "deeper" with "complex". They aren't one and the same and are often at odds. Some of the games ive played that have the deepest gameplay also have the simplest.

> I get that positioning can be important, it's also important in League, but not because of some skill-decreasing RNG funhouse mechanic. Also, im going to have to ask since i haven't played DotA in forever - "increase" your chance to miss your target? Implying that there's a chance to miss in there anyway? If there is...

yeah. RNG is directly counter to player skill.

- there is a courier you can use to ferry items back and forth between you and home base; this isn't free and must be purchased by a player - not doing so puts your team at a huge disadvantage, but the player who purchases it loses money he could be spending on items or consumables

> You mean... exactly like a Support in League, who buys wards for the entire team, aura items that likely dont directly benefit him/her, and dont farm creeps to ensure that their carry can get fed. It's a different mechanic, but an identical principle.

- Night vs Daytime - vision is reduced at night, and one enemy (Nightstalker) gets stronger at night
- Creep Blocking - you can position yourself in front of creeps as they traverse the lane to slow them down, thereby making them fight enemy creep waves closer to your tower than the enemy's

> It is harder to do, but you can creep block in League. In fact, unit collision is now a larger issue and more reliable.

- Neutral Creep Stacking - you can stack jungle camps to make it so there are more to kill

> Im not sure what this has to do with a "deeper" or even "more complicated" skill system. Perhaps im misunderstanding how it could possibly make it so there are "more to kill".

- Runes (somewhat mimiced by red and blue buffs in LoL) - runes spawn in one of two locations on the river, randomly, every two minutes

> So, effectively similar.

- Denying - you can deny creeps, towers, and even TEAMMATES to lower XP and gold gain for the enemy team

> What you're actually doing here (and why i call it counter-intuitive) is being rewarded for losing. If you want to deny the XP and gold gain for destroying a tower to the enemy - dont let them destroy it. If you get outplayed and lose your lane, the entire idea that you can snipe your tower when they get it to 1% to screw them out of their victory after they outplayed you is just absurd. You lost the tower, and the fact that you get to rob the enemy of their victory with a cheap-ass game mechanic isn't "deep", its lame as hell. Same with sniping teammates - you lose a teamfight, get outplayed... and then rob the enemy of the reward with a lame game mechanic. Yeah. Super Deep.

- Side Lane/Secret Shops - there is a shop in each side lane that sells a reduced number of items, as well as a secret shop that carries certain items you can not buy elsewhere - in LoL, each lane is of equal length between home base and towers; in DotA and Dota 2, they vary in length, giving one team an advantage, and the other team a disadvantage (and vice versa in the opposing lane). This plays a big part in which hero you decide to use in which lane

> It doesn't take a longer lane or shorter lane to make those determinations in LoL, but i take your meaning. Yet more RNG to obfuscate actual mechanical skill. Avoidable in a draft-pick, perhaps.

- Map Inequality - to further expand on the equal lanes in LoL, the overall map is a copy of one side over to the other side. In DotA and Dota 2, the map is quite different depending on which jungle you are in

> Again, more RNG to make skill less useful or prevalent or potentially screw you by winding up on a side you cant jungle in for whatever reason. This isn't a better design, its actually a detriment.

There's a great article about why MLG dropped Halo 4 from competitive play that has to deal with something almost exactly like this. Ill see if i can dig up a link. But, basically, randomly different / unequal areas/treatment/powers/etc don't make for fair competitive play.

- Teleport to Base - there are no free TP's to base; in DotA and Dota 2 you must buy scrolls

> Again, this isn't "deeper" or even more complicated.... just different. And wether it is better is a matter of debate. More walking = more downtime = more boredom.

- Monster Control/Microing - some heroes can summon controllable minions and some can gain control of neutral creeps/monsters; these pets can be micro-controlled and some have spells/abilities of their own

> League, to my knowledge hasnt put in any minions with abilities of their own that you activate, but you can micro your minions and have been able to since about six months after the game launched. In fact, you *have* to if you want to play some champions like Malzahar and Zyra successfully.

- Item Abilities - there are a few items in LoL that have activated abilities, but in DotA and Dota 2, well over half of the items have activated abilities

> I think you might want to check again; while im sure it isn't up to "half", there are LOT more actives in LoL than there were, as of Season 3. If you remove the Tier-1 items (items that are simply components of other items), it might even be half these days.. At just a quick glance through the shop in a custom game i come up with 22 in Summoners Rift, out of ~50 Tier-2/3 items.

- Destructible Terrain - Some items and spells/abilites can remove trees and terrain from the map; they will respawn after a few minutes
- Pulling - neutral jungle creeps can be leashed into a lane to fight enemy or allied creep waves, thereby removing aggro from any of them

To you those above features (list is from Wobblefoot in the DOTA2 thread) might just seem counter-intuitive and grief freindly, but in the end that's really just your point of view. What they definitely do is provide for a much deeper game (a game with more elements). As a regular player of both, I think I'm very justified in saying LoL is the 'easier' game - it's much easier to pick up and learn because they stripped so much out. It's essentially DOTA with the training wheels on. It's very fun, but the overall game elements are pretty shallow.

> You constantly confuse "deep" with "complex". Complicated != better, or even deeper. If we were going to compare it to board games, i'd say DotA is a lot like Chess, which is rather difficult to be even average at, and extremely complicated to master, and LoL is like Go, which is quite easy to learn and (like chess) extremely complicated to master.

I've played games with as few as four game mechanics that were infinitely "deeper" than games with 400.

- I come from playing starcraft 2 very heavily online, and so coming to league from starcraft, make's league seem like a walk in the park.

> Since they aren't even remotely the same kind of game, i fail to see how that is even a meaningful statement. Skill at Starcraft has nothing to do with skill in a Moba, other than someone who has skills required to hit Diamond + in SC2 very likely has a few essential skills for a Moba (map awareness, good reflexes). That doesn't guarantee being good though. I have a very good friend who is a SC nut and has already run himself to Diamond+ (as of a few days ago) on the Korean servers now that it is region-unlocked. He's amazing. He cant play League to save his life, despite liking the game and trying to get better so he can play with the rest of his friends who by and large couldnt care less about SC2 but play League. He's awful. Thankfully he's got a sense of humor about it.

- Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying easier game = inferior game.

> Finally we agree.

- I'm just saying recognize it for what it is, and don't pretend that there's not other games in the genre that offer a much deeper experience.

> Oh, and we were doing so well...... there's that "deeper" word again. (I *really* wanted to go Princess Bride here....inconceivable!) Complicated, yes. Deeper? I dont agree. Id say theyre about the same as far as depth, or maybe even a little in Leagues favor, as it removes RNG and puts the onus directly on the player and team.. but itd be a marginal difference at best.

- Coming from Starcraft I recognize that one of the largest draws away from Starcraft is just how mentally exhaustive the game is. A lot of people don't like that and are looking for a much more casual experience.

> Or perhaps not less casual but more distilled. Mobafire did an interview with people watching the streams of the last few League events and DotA 2 events, and the general consensus was that watching DotA is like watching paint dry. For most people, playing it is the same way - passive farm, passive farm, passive farm, walk walk walk walk walk walk... League is far more exciting to watch, and in most cases, play. Thats what people are after. It isnt that it is simpler, it is that it is more accessible and more interesting. There's more action and more interesting play. DotA has a lot of dry spells and very technical, dry play that just turns most people right off.

I'm not going to spend the time parsing all of that into little quotes, but it seems like you really have no experience of dota. I'm not really sure where that "dota has a lot of dry spells and very technical, dry plays" comes from. If you look at the hero's in dota, a lot of them have ultimate's that seem downright overpowered, and they would be, except a ton of heroes are like that in dota so it balances. You have heroes like:
- Enigma who mass AOE stun make Amumu's curse of the mummy seem like a tiny stun.
- Meepo, who can literally be in 5 spots at once (if one of him dies, they all die) - so good meepo players have one of them in each lane for gold/xp, and another roaming around to get kills, micring all of them at the same time.
- Lion (who I play the most) has a large AOE stun, a 2nd stun, a mana drain that can drain like 100 mana per second from a champ, and his ult is a massive 1000 dmg nuke.

The list goes on, there's so many "OP" hereos in dota that it's ridiculous. I'll say it again, unlike myself (not meaning to sound arrogant), you seem to have no experience with dota, other then a few attempts and what you read on the internet. Go play it, I can give you a beta key.

You also misunderstood many of the features that I listed. Denying isn't about having less skill, it's about being better, and forcing you to choose your fights. (successfully denying is also hard to do). During laning phase both "adc's" are trying to last hit both their own creeps and the opponents (when you have to choose, kill your opponents for gold), and your support is also in their denying the enemy carry as many creeps as they can. For denying towers, sure you could walk in and get a lucky last hit, but it's harder (due to no smite) then sneaking in a lucky last hit in league when they are at baron - it happens, but rarely. If your going to decide to push their tower, and then leave with it being like 20 hp, that's just you being dumb, since you should have either finished it, or not attacked (you can only deny stuff that's at very low hp, you can't attack your own popsnizzle when it's still got somewhat ok health). The guys defending that lane can be like, "well next push we're probably gonna lose this tower, so we're either gonna sit here and use it as bait, or disassemble this position and pull back."

I just like how when given a list of like 15 things that dota had and league stripped out when making their own game, you have to dismiss those as bad and counter-intuitive. To put this in an apple context you sound kinda like Steve Jobs did at times. Q: "what about x feature that the competitors have that looks really nice?" A:" that feature isn't important and you shouldn't want it".

The main reason why those mechanics make dota a deeper game is because at it's core league is dota taken out of it's original context and made more accessible to the masses (nothing wrong with that). All they really did was strip out a lot of things that players found confusing and complicated (in reality their not, after you play like 10 games), and then added in a few things to replace some of those elements (r/b bluffs, etc.).

And it's only 1 map, pro teams switching sides every game, so it's not like halo where you have weapon drops on diff spots on diff maps favouring diff teams. They sides are different but equal if that makes sense.

My point isn't that dota is a better game, it's that it's a deeper game. League fans seem to find that offensive (despite consensus being that league is the COD of MOBA's ). Not a perfect analogy, but to me League is COD, and dota is Battlefield

tl;dr: when someone make's a small sarcastic remark about league not being the best, don't get offended and start trashing the other game and dismissing everything that it does differently as counter intuitive. Maybe, just maybe, there's one thing dota does one thing that league stripped out, that offers a enjoyable experience

"Comlicated" and "Deeper" aren't synonyms, please stop using them as such.

Tower Denying isn't "deep". It's "complicated', and cheap as hell. It allows you to lose and still punish the other guy for outplaying you, that simple.

Quote

I just like how when given a list of like 15 things that dota had and league stripped out when making their own game, you have to dismiss those as bad and counter-intuitive

Actually, it was about four of them i labelled as counter-intuitive (anything with RNG involved for starters) and the rest i just plain debunked. Active items being one of them, for instance. Two, i think, i ignored simply because they were neither deeper or more complicated, simply different.

"Comlicated" and "Deeper" aren't synonyms, please stop using them as such.

Tower Denying isn't "deep". It's "complicated', and cheap as hell. It allows you to lose and still punish the other guy for outplaying you, that simple.

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Actually, it was about four of them i labelled as counter-intuitive (anything with RNG involved for starters) and the rest i just plain debunked. Active items being one of them, for instance. Two, i think, i ignored simply because they were neither deeper or more complicated, simply different.

That's the thing, I don't think dota is complicated at all. You keep saying it's complicated (your actually really the only one to use that word in relation to dota in this thread, besides the post I'm making right now). I would agree in saying it's more complicated, but that doesn't mean the game itself is complicated. Any game with more features would technically be more complicated then a game with less.

How is tower denying "complicated"? Last person to take down the final 1 hp gets it. Nothing complicated about that. Is a team stealing the baron or dragon in league by sneaking in to get the last hit to complicated? Maybe riot should patch that out.

Here's why I'm frustrated: you really have no experience with dota, but you feel like you can dismiss/debunk/judge every single feature it offers. I have a decent amount of experience with both (I'm by no means "pro" in either, but enough enough game knowledge to differentiate the two), and feel like I can make a decent judgement between the two games about their nature.

It's like if I was someone who had tried both PC and Mac, and you had only tried PC, but your sitting her waxing eloquent on how Mac is inferior to PC based off of using it once, and reading about it on the internet.

I still have a beta key if you would lower yourself to the level of trying the game you seem to know so much about.

I'm just going to reply to all of these points I guess.

Tetsuya, on 29 January 2013 - 04:46 PM, said:

> Nope. You're brutally misconstruing "deeper" with "complex". They aren't one and the same and are often at odds. Some of the games ive played that have the deepest gameplay also have the simplest.

While what your saying is correct if dota were a complex game, and league wasn't, I don't think dota is complex

> I get that positioning can be important, it's also important in League, but not because of some skill-decreasing RNG funhouse mechanic. Also, im going to have to ask since i haven't played DotA in forever - "increase" your chance to miss your target? Implying that there's a chance to miss in there anyway? If there is...

yeah. RNG is directly counter to player skill.

I'm not really sure what he meant by chance to miss, maybe it's a dota1 thing, but what terrain does do is that you can see down cliffs if your on top, but you cannot see up them, so if your running down the river all your can see if the river, but if anyone is on the cliff above it they have line of sight into the river and can attack you - basic, simple terrain advantage: being higher up means you can see more.

- there is a courier you can use to ferry items back and forth between you and home base; this isn't free and must be purchased by a player - not doing so puts your team at a huge disadvantage, but the player who purchases it loses money he could be spending on items or consumables

> You mean... exactly like a Support in League, who buys wards for the entire team, aura items that likely dont directly benefit him/her, and dont farm creeps to ensure that their carry can get fed. It's a different mechanic, but an identical principle.

Nope. Not at all like a support in league. Warding is just as important in dota. And there are supports. The courier has nothing to do with them, other then the fact that a support is the one who will buy the courier at the start. The courier delivers items to you that you purchased. You can purchase items at any time from the main shop at base, but cannot get that item unless you return to base, or you micro the courier to pick it up for you and deliver it to you (which is what everyone does). You very rarely return to base in dota, perhaps only if your extremely low health and mana and can't afford the money or time to get the courier to fly you some potions. Also the courier can be intercepted by the enemy team and killed, meaning everything on it is lost (that 5000 gold item you just bought). Now it's pretty hard to lose your courier unless your being dumb with it (flying it into enemy territory etc.) - or the enemy specifically wards and counter jungles to kill it meaning you lose the items you bought.

Very interesting mechanic. Adds a lot to the game if there's nightstalker in the game - he's pretty bad during the day time, but amazing at night, if he's ss at night be careful

- Creep Blocking - you can position yourself in front of creeps as they traverse the lane to slow them down, thereby making them fight enemy creep waves closer to your tower than the enemy's

> It is harder to do, but you can creep block in League. In fact, unit collision is now a larger issue and more reliable.

- Neutral Creep Stacking - you can stack jungle camps to make it so there are more to kill

> Im not sure what this has to do with a "deeper" or even "more complicated" skill system. Perhaps im misunderstanding how it could possibly make it so there are "more to kill".

I've never jungled in dota, and very rarely kill neutral creeps so I'm unsure on this.

- Runes (somewhat mimiced by red and blue buffs in LoL) - runes spawn in one of two locations on the river, randomly, every two minutes

> So, effectively similar. Very losely similar, the wards spawn every 2 min, and can be anything (invisibility, instant health and mana regen to full, double dmg, extra life (like guardian angel in league), etc.) you don't know what the runes are gonna be when you go for them. Keeps the games fresh and different

- Denying - you can deny creeps, towers, and even TEAMMATES to lower XP and gold gain for the enemy team

> What you're actually doing here (and why i call it counter-intuitive) is being rewarded for losing. If you want to deny the XP and gold gain for destroying a tower to the enemy - dont let them destroy it. If you get outplayed and lose your lane, the entire idea that you can snipe your tower when they get it to 1% to screw them out of their victory after they outplayed you is just absurd. You lost the tower, and the fact that you get to rob the enemy of their victory with a cheap-ass game mechanic isn't "deep", its lame as hell. Same with sniping teammates - you lose a teamfight, get outplayed... and then rob the enemy of the reward with a lame game mechanic. Yeah. Super Deep.

Your literally the only person I've ever met who thinks denying is a reward for losing. Play a game of dota and try to deny. You'll find what it really does is add a lot of skill to the game, not cheapen it. Go play dota, you'll see what I mean. (and I mean actually play it, pick a champ you like, look up a build, and play a few games)

- Side Lane/Secret Shops - there is a shop in each side lane that sells a reduced number of items, as well as a secret shop that carries certain items you can not buy elsewhere - in LoL, each lane is of equal length between home base and towers; in DotA and Dota 2, they vary in length, giving one team an advantage, and the other team a disadvantage (and vice versa in the opposing lane). This plays a big part in which hero you decide to use in which lane

> It doesn't take a longer lane or shorter lane to make those determinations in LoL, but i take your meaning. Yet more RNG to obfuscate actual mechanical skill. Avoidable in a draft-pick, perhaps.

This adds a lot of interest to the laning phase as top and bottom both have side shops which sell the cheaper first ingredients to more expensive items, as well as boots and stuff. You can get items in the middle of the laning phase while never leaving the lane. It's also a good way to force fights if you want them to try and deny you getting an item (you make it obvious your walking to the side shop, which is just into the trees a little bit). And there's absolutely no RNG here. The bot lane is the long lane, and top is the short lane.

- Map Inequality - to further expand on the equal lanes in LoL, the overall map is a copy of one side over to the other side. In DotA and Dota 2, the map is quite different depending on which jungle you are in

> Again, more RNG to make skill less useful or prevalent or potentially screw you by winding up on a side you cant jungle in for whatever reason. This isn't a better design, its actually a detriment.

In league you can see what side your going to be during champ select, same thing in dota. It's a better design imo because it gives the identical experience, while making it fresh at the same time. Playing on the dire is visually very different from the radiant, and also makes jungling a little fresher to. Also, there's no RNG here, the map is identical every match, just not symmetrical.

There's a great article about why MLG dropped Halo 4 from competitive play that has to deal with something almost exactly like this. Ill see if i can dig up a link. But, basically, randomly different / unequal areas/treatment/powers/etc don't make for fair competitive play.

There's only one map in dota, so this doesn't apply. Teams switch sides during pro games

- Teleport to Base - there are no free TP's to base; in DotA and Dota 2 you must buy scrolls

> Again, this isn't "deeper" or even more complicated.... just different. And wether it is better is a matter of debate. More walking = more downtime = more boredom.

TP scrolls add a considerable amount of strategy. They not only can teleport you to base, but also to any friendly building that's still standing (towers). So if your top lane is getting mad pushed and your on bot, your whole team can TP there quick (the other team does the same, or they fake it to make you all do that, cuz there's a cooldown on TP scrolls (2 min???) and then they push bot while your all top). It also makes you think a lot harder about pooling, since your wasting time and money (since TP scrolls cost money).

- Monster Control/Microing - some heroes can summon controllable minions and some can gain control of neutral creeps/monsters; these pets can be micro-controlled and some have spells/abilities of their own

> League, to my knowledge hasnt put in any minions with abilities of their own that you activate, but you can micro your minions and have been able to since about six months after the game launched. In fact, you *have* to if you want to play some champions like Malzahar and Zyra successfully.

League is nowhere near the same lvl of minion micro'ing as dota. You have to play to discover that. Trying micro'ing 4 of yourself at once if you pick meepo (him and invoker are probably the hardest champs to play)

- Item Abilities - there are a few items in LoL that have activated abilities, but in DotA and Dota 2, well over half of the items have activated abilities

> I think you might want to check again; while im sure it isn't up to "half", there are LOT more actives in LoL than there were, as of Season 3. If you remove the Tier-1 items (items that are simply components of other items), it might even be half these days.. At just a quick glance through the shop in a custom game i come up with 22 in Summoners Rift, out of ~50 Tier-2/3 items.

True, S3 did add a lot more actives, but most the actives aren't very interesting. Just smaller actives (they can definitely be game changing but aren't massive one like in dota). For instance in dota there's one item that it's only use is it's active which instantly resets all your spell cooldowns (it's a very expensive item lol). You could techinically buy 6 of these and do 6 ults in a row (completely troll build, you would never ever have even close to enough gold for even 2 of these when it mattered, and if you did your team has already won the game - similar to doing all all tiamat build in S2 of league). There's also an item that has invisbility as it's active, etc. There's another active which gives you a high dmg nuke. Much more interesting actives then LoL. LoL is mostly about your ad/ap, armour, health, etc. not your actives. The actives are a factor but not at all the focus in league.

- Destructible Terrain - Some items and spells/abilites can remove trees and terrain from the map; they will respawn after a few minutes

This is a massive plus for dota in my mind - it makes the map much more modular and interesting, depending on whether or not you decide to use those features to your advantage

- Pulling - neutral jungle creeps can be leashed into a lane to fight enemy or allied creep waves, thereby removing aggro from any of them

To you those above features (list is from Wobblefoot in the DOTA2 thread) might just seem counter-intuitive and grief freindly, but in the end that's really just your point of view. What they definitely do is provide for a much deeper game (a game with more elements). As a regular player of both, I think I'm very justified in saying LoL is the 'easier' game - it's much easier to pick up and learn because they stripped so much out. It's essentially DOTA with the training wheels on. It's very fun, but the overall game elements are pretty shallow.

> You constantly confuse "deep" with "complex". Complicated != better, or even deeper. If we were going to compare it to board games, i'd say DotA is a lot like Chess, which is rather difficult to be even average at, and extremely complicated to master, and LoL is like Go, which is quite easy to learn and (like chess) extremely complicated to master.

I've played games with as few as four game mechanics that were infinitely "deeper" than games with 400.

- I come from playing starcraft 2 very heavily online, and so coming to league from starcraft, make's league seem like a walk in the park.

> Since they aren't even remotely the same kind of game, i fail to see how that is even a meaningful statement. Skill at Starcraft has nothing to do with skill in a Moba, other than someone who has skills required to hit Diamond + in SC2 very likely has a few essential skills for a Moba (map awareness, good reflexes). That doesn't guarantee being good though. I have a very good friend who is a SC nut and has already run himself to Diamond+ (as of a few days ago) on the Korean servers now that it is region-unlocked. He's amazing. He cant play League to save his life, despite liking the game and trying to get better so he can play with the rest of his friends who by and large couldnt care less about SC2 but play League. He's awful. Thankfully he's got a sense of humor about it.

Here I am talking about the theory and skill ceiling of LoL compared to SC. The mental power it takes to play LoL is very small compared to SC. Obviously being good in SC does not mean your good at LoL, I meant mentally the game seems so simple. (executing properly is another thing). Watch pro streams and this is very important. In league when streaming pros can talk about whatever, derp around, discuss what's going on, etc. Now go watch a starcraft stream of a pro practicing. He will very rarely speak. All his focus needs to be on the game. The reason I'm bringing this up is so you understand my background when coming into MOBA's. The thing I loved the most was not having to mentally bust a nut everygame. In league your doing 1 thing at a time (same with dota), in starcraft your doing upwards of 5 (micro'ing army, building troops, scouting, expanding/securing expansion, building economy, getting upgrades, etc.). My brain is consistently looking for things to do in the game. In a MOBA you have 1 maybe 2 things to do, and you just sit there and do it. Maybe in 15-20 min when the midgame starts my role will change slightly.

- Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying easier game = inferior game.

> Finally we agree.

- I'm just saying recognize it for what it is, and don't pretend that there's not other games in the genre that offer a much deeper experience.

> Oh, and we were doing so well...... there's that "deeper" word again. (I *really* wanted to go Princess Bride here....inconceivable!) Complicated, yes. Deeper? I dont agree. Id say theyre about the same as far as depth, or maybe even a little in Leagues favor, as it removes RNG and puts the onus directly on the player and team.. but itd be a marginal difference at best.

Again, go play dota, you'll see that all this randomness your talking about doesn't exist

- Coming from Starcraft I recognize that one of the largest draws away from Starcraft is just how mentally exhaustive the game is. A lot of people don't like that and are looking for a much more casual experience.

> Or perhaps not less casual but more distilled. Mobafire did an interview with people watching the streams of the last few League events and DotA 2 events, and the general consensus was that watching DotA is like watching paint dry. For most people, playing it is the same way - passive farm, passive farm, passive farm, walk walk walk walk walk walk... League is far more exciting to watch, and in most cases, play. Thats what people are after. It isnt that it is simpler, it is that it is more accessible and more interesting. There's more action and more interesting play. DotA has a lot of dry spells and very technical, dry play that just turns most people right off.

Sounds like they interviewed league fans about what they thought about dota. I'm sure you'd get a similar but opposite result if you interviewed dota fans about league.

Other things dota adds that aren't in league. Punishes dying: you lose gold when you die. Better banning system in ranked: Each team gets 3 bans (same as league), and then the first 2 players on each team pick someone, and then both teams get a further 2 bans. and then the last 3 players pick.

To chime in here, I don't LoL is a bad game, its just not a game I like. I know its popular. Anything more accessible/casual is. I'm sure you will get offended by the use of the word "casual" in reference to LoL, but that's not my intent. I know you can play it casually, or get into it very competitively. But simply put you cannot play Dota (or HoN for that matter) casually.

At the end of the day different games exist for different kinds of gamers. Snake isn't saying LoL is an inferior game (as he made clear) and neither am I. Its not an opinion, but a fact, that Dota/HoN have a larger range of elements at play, which has the *potential* to make the game deeper. Some will find it complex or complicated, others will not find it so, and will enjoy it.

I am of the Dota 2 > HoN > LoL camp, but only where my personal preferences are concerned; I also think that each game has its strengths and weaknesses:

- LoL is by far the most accessible for newer players - they also pioneered a very succesful F2P model that has rocketed them to the top of the MOBA/ARTS marketshare
- Dota 2 has the pedigree of continuing to refine and polish the original game that started it all (it also has Valve and IceFrog)
- HoN is the little engine that could - definitely the underdog, but you can tell S2 is very passionate about the game and keeps trying to improve it and make it better (sometimes to a detriment, though)

I really like all of the complexities that Dota 2 has over LoL, but the biggest thing for me is the aesthetics and overall "themes" of each game. For one, LoL has adopted a somewhat cutesy approach to designing their champions that parallels a lot of the things you see in modern anime and manga, and this is a big turn off for me. I'm an older male gamer in his mid 30's, not a teenage girl who squeals at how cute Teemo is in his bunny suit. Riot just isn't trying to market their product towards gamers like me.

The other thing (and I've seen a lot of avid LoL players express this sentiment) is the graphic style of LoL creates big problems in team fights - I just can't tell what the !$%* is going on. I don't know if the colors are too muddled or what, but I notice it when I'm both playing and spectating.

EDIT: I'll give LoL another shot when the new Mac client is available. I have a lot of friends who play LoL, and I always enjoy playing with them no matter what the game is.

It seems that people who prefer HoN like it for it's speed (the heroes have a more instantaneous response time), whereas people like Dota 2 because it is a true successor to Dota - it is literally vanilla DotA on the source engine. What this means, though, is that some heroes are balanced around their response time to input - movement, turning speed, click-reponse, attack rate. It's hard for HoN players to transission to that.

Me? I like Dota 2 - I really like the aesthetics of the game, Valve's approach to dealing with problem players (they take player reports seriously, as well as frequent game-leavers), and the amount of polish it has. HoN is okay, but it seems like S2 is constantly playing catch-up. Their original goal (according to the developers) was to be a small game that was happy with a few-thousand players. Then they saw Riot blow up into this huge, profitable company and went "Oh, oh... ME TOO!" Unfortunately, even though they are striving to make improvements, it's like they are always a few steps behind.

Also, it seems like S2 doesn't know who they want to compete with - Valve or Riot. Riot doesn't want LoL to be like Dota 2, and Valve doesn't want Dota 2 to be like LoL. S2, though, keeps trying to be a little of both, and I think it's an overall detriment to the game.

It seems that people who prefer HoN like it for it's speed (the heroes have a more instantaneous response time), whereas people like Dota 2 because it is a true successor to Dota - it is literally vanilla DotA on the source engine. What this means, though, is that some heroes are balanced around their response time to input - movement, turning speed, click-reponse, attack rate. It's hard for HoN players to transission to that.

Me? I like Dota 2 - I really like the aesthetics of the game, Valve's approach to dealing with problem players (they take player reports seriously, as well as frequent game-leavers), and the amount of polish it has. HoN is okay, but it seems like S2 is constantly playing catch-up. Their original goal (according to the developers) was to be a small game that was happy with a few-thousand players. Then they saw Riot blow up into this huge, profitable company and went "Oh, oh... ME TOO!" Unfortunately, even though they are striving to make improvements, it's like they are always a few steps behind.

Also, it seems like S2 doesn't know who they want to compete with - Valve or Riot. Riot doesn't want LoL to be like Dota 2, and Valve doesn't want Dota 2 to be like LoL. S2, though, keeps trying to be a little of both, and I think it's an overall detriment to the game.

Just my 2 cents.

Today was the first time in a long time I sat down and played a dota match. God I miss dota. I've been playing league for the past 4 months or so cuz that's what my friends have been playing. I just love all the elements at play in dota. The force staff, blink staff, teleportation boots, tp'ing into teamfights all over the map. Getting to be invisible, perfecting the physics and response times of different heroes. How every game is different. There's not really one way to play it, there several, and it seems that every game takes a different approach