Welcome to the Piano World Piano ForumsOver 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers
(it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Swiss research has meantime proven that the special wood used for Stradivarius had less to do with any one particular type wood but the influence of fungi [mushrooms] grown at a time of rather unique metereological conditions during same era.

Some little corrections from the article in german language.. ;-) (if wanted, I could do a rough transation to EN?)

The fungi made the wooden cell structure thinner along of some years – but they kept the structure. Thinner cells but still stable.

The meteorolgical conditions of these years were not conneted with the special fungus but with the fact of very dense wood grown in a “little ice age” of that time. So the Stradivarius and Guarneri and Amati violin makers had wood available which was not unique because of the fungus but unique because of the trees (yet planted or grown up) then having standed the “little ice age” of that times, resulting in very dense circular structures of small cells et cetera in the sounding wood (many growth rings per inch).

If there were young trees planted within the "ice age", they would not have grown up. The precondition was to have the trees yet living - and then to have them "cool down" in the little ice age..

Conditions which sound irregular: you'll need to plant the "false" wood (for the environmental conditions) - and then let it grow slowly at "too cold" conditions.

Difficult.. Seems to be a process which maybe cannot be industrialized or exploited for best sound wood..

And we would have to evaluate/estimate how much of the "good sound content" is built-in by the fungus thinning the cellular walls, and how much "good sound content" is coming from the "little ice age" wood..

Fungus can sound like Stradivari violinYou do not need millions of euros for an original Stradivarius violin spend to get this special sound. It is enough to treat the wood of a new instrument with special fungi.

Swiss wood researcher Professor Francis WMR Schwarze from St. Gallen has discovered fungi (Physisporinus vitreus and Xylaria longipes) that decompose the two major for violin making spruce and maple woods, so that their sound quality can be improved. The peculiarity of these fungi is to degrade the cell walls of the wood gradually and make thinner, Black said at a lecture at the Max Delbrück Center in Berlin. Even in the late stages of wood decay remains a rigid framework obtained via sound waves could still spread directly. The wood also remains the same as before the break-resistant fungal treatment.

DISPLAYIn a blind test was a violin made of treated wood against a genuine Stradivarius from 1711. With surprising results: Both the jury, as well as the majority of the audience thought the new violin for the genuine Stradivarius. "Of course, such a procedure is always subjective," admits Black. For euphony there is just no clear scientific measurement methods.

The famous violin maker Antonio Stradivari used during the late 17th and early 18th Century a particular wood that had grown during a cold period between 1645 and 1715. By long winters and cool summers, the wood grew very slowly and then, so it had a low density and a high flexural strength.

I think you can thank the tension resonator device, or spider, on the older Masons that still have some crown. I know there is no proof, but there seem to be a lot of them still holding up. If the soundboard is still good on my BB in 50 years, I won't know because I would be 113 years old then.

A friend of mine who makes violins and once brought a Strad to my house said that all these people who do research on the wood in them just do not want to admit that the guy knew what he was doing when he made violins.

I would have done same on demand ;-) , get a pre translation via google, and smoothen the result.

PLS Give me Istria wood and a water bassin with fungus. Then an experienced Cremona violin maker with some good ideas how to build up a piano soundboard from that fungus wood stuff - extremely thin but resistant.

Maybe to build up a wooden folio without crown, with no pre tensioning load on top of the crown against the string tension? And for this purpose to omit the zigzag pattern of a conventional bridge?

To use bridge agraffes for a flat membrane?

I don't know. But I would love to hear a result in my life time - on a veritable nine footer.

What about this australian guy who uses flat glass as a soundboard? to myknowledge with bridge agraffes.

I read a book of a Munich based violin maker who goes with a chainsaw and an axt and with a helping friend into the highest wood regions in the alps, where no machinery can go, to pickout HIS sound wood personally. They test the trees by applying the flat side of the axt,: how it sounds.

Then apply the "Perry Knize" speech: a tree dies. A piano (violin) is born.

Bring this wood down the hill by ultra hard work. A MUCH BIGGER effort to gain the best sound wood possible.., compared with industrialized harvesting in Canada, Alaska, Val di Fiemme.

The fit and finish of the Faziolis are beautiful. I looked at the 228 before I settled on my current Bösendorfer 225, and the piano looked better under the hood. Many of the parts are gold-plated, etc. (I don't know if this is "standard" or an option.)

However I preferred the mellower sound of the Bösendorfer. If you want a high-quality "bright" sound, I think the Fazioli is a good choice (and it's slightly cheaper than Bösendorfer :-) )

I wasn't able to compare them back-to-back, and I didn't pay much attention to the concert sizes when I was evaluating, because I was looking for something for the home.

(And greetings from Porto, Portugal! I'm here to hear a concert at the Casa De Musica; I'll be back in the states tomorrow if my flight isn't canceled because of the General Strike!)

analogous to purchasing a rolls royce or a bentley one is not purchasing based on the performance of the vehicle alone but rather the beautiful hand-crafted nature of it. that and the status of owning one of course.

to my ear faziolis are very nice sounding pianos, a bit on the sweet side, and they are fantastic pieces of furniture (the fazioli heritage). there's no shame in spending one's money on one, IMHO.

When it comes to which component (s) affect the tone, I think it is partly magic. You can try three identical models of the same brand and they all sound a little different frequently. Why? One will often speak to you. Magic. (Ok, it can be the prep, the way the people at the factory were feeling when they installed this or that component--was it a hangover Monday or a delightful Tuesday, etc.) Seriously, I have no idea but it is fun to speculate isn't it?

I played a solo gig tonight for a post-Christmas party at a private residence. The owners had a 212 they purchased from Pierre Julia last year.Really nice ! Clarity and sustain for days. A huge bass for a 7 'er too. The action was super responsive. I was actually able to execute some passages from the classical pieces, I do on these type of gigs, easier then my D.

Sound was helped immensely by a large living room with angled walls and a cathedral type ceiling too.

The finish wasn't your typical high gloss ebony but high gloss mahogany finish. I'm not usually a fan of mahogany but the fact it sounded so good made me forget about the finish...

I play a lot of super dog pianos in even some of the most expensive homes, so this was a treat. Definitely made the night go faster and more fun...even if I was just wallpaper.

I recently could compare side by side my own 1979 Hamburg Steinway B after it was completely refurbished (new mechanic and strings, but original soundboard) to a few Fazioli 212's at the shop that did the work on my piano. Somebody had seen my Steinway there by chance and wanted to buy it at an excellent price, for which basically I could have gotten a used year 2k F212 for exchange or a 2006 F212 that basically just hung around in the shop for a little extra cash. My 1979 Steinway B definitively was a lot better than the year 2000 Fazioli, but with the newer one it was a tough call (I resisted the temptation, though). In a sense, the Fazioli is the better — read, more modern, more technically advanced - piano. Most notable, even the 211cm Model B Steinway has a dead spot in the lower medium (i.e. the passage from the coiled to the uncoiled strings). Quiet a surprise to me for such a big piano, since I had gotten used to my (much older) Steinway D. Well, the Fazioli doesn't have that problem, it is much more even across the keyboard than the Steinway, and generally quiet a bit more powerful. But then, yes, the Steinway has a more complex, subtle, rich sound than the Fazioli, which is more straightforward, clean and clear-cut (I must say, without bragging, than my Model B is a particularly nice model and particularly well restored, better than most new models you would pick at the Hamburg Factory.)

My father had a 183cm Fazioli bought in the late 80's. It was a wonderful piano — clearly superior to any brand at that size — incredibly expressive, nuanced, with very round, singing tone, capable of an incredible dynamic range. But again, it maybe all was a little too much: that piano was build for projection, projection, projection, to be able to rival a much longer piano in a concert hall. As a result, it was quiet a nuisance to play even in a very large apartment, the sound would cause extreme reflections, echo, and thus muddle on nearly any surface. Building the most powerful piano possible at the smallest size possible doesn't seem the best of ideas to me : I actually would prefer a larger, less powerful piano, but with a richer palette, more balance (that would be a Boesendorfer....).

The description of the Fazioli as a "Super-Yamaha" many people came up with has also been my impression. Nothing wrong with that, Yamaha do make excellent pianos, and many at a far lower price ! (It could be interesting to compare the Faziolis with the new Yamaha CFX series pianos, they might be quiet similar).

I play both the Fazioli F278 and the Yamaha CFX quite a lot, but they are chalk and cheese. The CFX has quite a brilliant tone when pushed, and is generally brighter than the F278, brighter also at the top than the CF-IIIS it replaces. The Fazioli has a rather more balanced sound across its whole keyboard, but is less 'colorful' than the Yamaha overall. In fact, the CFX is even more colorful, with very strong overtones at forte and beyond, than the Steinway D in many ways.

If you haven't heard the sound of the CFX, have a look at Youtube videos of HJ Lim, who's recorded the Beethoven Sonatas on the CFX.

_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

analogous to purchasing a rolls royce or a bentley one is not purchasing based on the performance of the vehicle alone but rather the beautiful hand-crafted nature of it. that and the status of owning one of course.

to my ear faziolis are very nice sounding pianos, a bit on the sweet side, and they are fantastic pieces of furniture (the fazioli heritage). there's no shame in spending one's money on one, IMHO.

That's just complete non-sense. As a piece of furniture, a Fazioli or Steinway is strictly identical to a Yamaha, or even a Young Chang or Wendl&Lung. The difference is the sound, the dynamics, the action, and possibly the durability. So no, these pianos are purchased based on the "performance" alone, and not the "beautiful hand-crafted nature of it".

In fact, the CFX is even more colorful, with very strong overtones at forte and beyond, than the Steinway D in many ways.

If you haven't heard the sound of the CFX, have a look at Youtube videos of HJ Lim, who's recorded the Beethoven Sonatas on the CFX.

Thanks for the link ! I've never heard a CFX nor played one before. i'm surprised how metallic and shrill this piano can be, and how muffled but not really singing and warm in the softer passages. I had thought that Yamaha was aiming for a more european sound with their new models, this disappointed me a little. Of course this has a lot to do with prepping, mic placement and interpretation. Actually I recall having just barely tested one of their smaller CF models, and thought it was quite harsh, rather stiff too, and think I prefer their smoother, more flexible, warmer S series pianos.

So thumbs up to Fazioli for me on this one !

You must remember that these top-end Yamaha pianos sell at the same price as Faziolis or Steinways.

to my ear faziolis are very nice sounding pianos, a bit on the sweet side, and they are fantastic pieces of furniture (the fazioli heritage). there's no shame in spending one's money on one, IMHO.

That's just complete non-sense. As a piece of furniture, a Fazioli or Steinway is strictly identical to a Yamaha, or even a Young Chang or Wendl&Lung. The difference is the sound, the dynamics, the action, and possibly the durability. So no, these pianos are purchased based on the "performance" alone, and not the "beautiful hand-crafted nature of it".

Some people who don't play piano will not understand the difference between a $150K and a $15K piano. Even my parents think a Yamaha C-Series is equivalent to a Steinway with only price and name brand being the difference. These people seriously have to sit in front of the piano to hear the difference.

As for Fazioli's, which I can understand why people would love it, I find it too bright for my taste. The clarity is so sharp that it kind of stings my ears.

I doubt it is the clarity that is stinging your ears. It may be the loudness of the instrument, or as you say the many reverberations of the sound in a small apartment. Usually noises described as "stinging" or "irritating" come from discordance produced by partials that are not in tune (such as with the aliquots). I hope I am expressing this correctly, but the "killer octave" is well know for producing such irritations.

When Belsha talks about his father's piano causing unpleasant sounds, I'll bet you anything the father is not hearing these sounds the same way Belsha is. You lose some parts of your hearing at age 50 and progressively more as you age. You can have a real problem if you had a job that caused hearing loss when you were younger. I've told this story before on the Forum, but I went almost two years trying to get my technician to "fix" my Fazioli. It had started to sound too loud, too piercing, etc. It was causing tinnitus in my ears. Voicing, changing the hammers, and other things didn't help. Then I discovered that one of the medicines I was taking during this time caused tinnitus as a side effect for some patients. I stopped the medicine, the tinnitus went away, and the Fazioli sounded wonderful again. Considering how many medicines people take routinely these days (for cholesterol control, blood pressure, obesity, etc.), it is not surprising we get such different reactions from different people to the same instrument.

I noticed Norbert in a comment above is starting to appreciate the importance of one's hearing in determining which instruments are suitable and which are not. The unfortunate thing is that we all then extrapolate from the personal and condemn or praise the entire brand of instruments.

analogous to purchasing a rolls royce or a bentley one is not purchasing based on the performance of the vehicle alone but rather the beautiful hand-crafted nature of it. that and the status of owning one of course.

to my ear faziolis are very nice sounding pianos, a bit on the sweet side, and they are fantastic pieces of furniture (the fazioli heritage). there's no shame in spending one's money on one, IMHO.

That's just complete non-sense. As a piece of furniture, a Fazioli or Steinway is strictly identical to a Yamaha, or even a Young Chang or Wendl&Lung. The difference is the sound, the dynamics, the action, and possibly the durability. So no, these pianos are purchased based on the "performance" alone, and not the "beautiful hand-crafted nature of it".

I would dispute this. It sounds like a denial that pieces of furniture can differ in quality and craftsmanship. And the "furniture" aspect of the piano, often called "fit and finish," is absolutely considered when assessing the piano's overall quality.

analogous to purchasing a rolls royce or a bentley one is not purchasing based on the performance of the vehicle alone but rather the beautiful hand-crafted nature of it. that and the status of owning one of course.

to my ear faziolis are very nice sounding pianos, a bit on the sweet side, and they are fantastic pieces of furniture (the fazioli heritage). there's no shame in spending one's money on one, IMHO.

That's just complete non-sense. As a piece of furniture, a Fazioli or Steinway is strictly identical to a Yamaha, or even a Young Chang or Wendl&Lung. The difference is the sound, the dynamics, the action, and possibly the durability. So no, these pianos are purchased based on the "performance" alone, and not the "beautiful hand-crafted nature of it".

then i daresay you know nothing about the fazioli heritage or its build process, nor the many reasons (sound being only one) that someone would spend that much money on a piano.

pianoloverus
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 20371
Loc: New York City

Originally Posted By: belsha

Originally Posted By: Entheo

to my ear faziolis are very nice sounding pianos, a bit on the sweet side, and they are fantastic pieces of furniture (the fazioli heritage). there's no shame in spending one's money on one, IMHO.

That's just complete non-sense. As a piece of furniture, a Fazioli or Steinway is strictly identical to a Yamaha, or even a Young Chang or Wendl&Lung. The difference is the sound, the dynamics, the action, and possibly the durability. So no, these pianos are purchased based on the "performance" alone, and not the "beautiful hand-crafted nature of it".

The quality, beauty, and technical aspects of the finish vary tremendously on different make pianos. Even the style of the case and plate vary although not so much if one buys the basic "contemporary" version.