I have largely been trying to ignore this circus sideshow, but these people (all of them, the Fehrs, Bettman, Daly, the players and owners) are bunch of fucking pig headed morons. I don't understand how they can all be so stupid.

Over 200 players (30%) never played another NHL game after the 2004-05 lockout. How the significant number of players who are in their early to mid 30's and have already endured one of these in the prime of their careers aren't jumping up and down and losing their shit over this is beyond me. If I'm a guy like Roberto Luongo I am losing my mind over this.

The owners crying poor is ridiculous. They need to control their own profit margins and grow their market. The players whining because they got "screwed" in the last deal where salaries did nothing but rise at breakneck speed is ridiculous.

And yet you have a team like Minnesota, that showed an operating loss, sign two of the biggest deals in the off season, now crying that they need a new deal to be competitive. And they can't make whole. This is the part that irks me. These deals that were not negotiated or signed in good faith by the owners who knew that they would be trying to weasel out of them. Everyone, including Uncle Dan's Leg, knew that the signing push was all about beating the deadline for the expiring CBA yet the owners still engaged in this frenzy knowing they had no intention of honouring the deals.

And the other side of that equation seems to be a major stumbling block by those high paid long term players that want a make whole. They too knew that the CBA was expiring and that there was a high probability that a roll back or cap drop or something was going to hit them. They are all disingenuous, players and owners.

I'd push for the roll back and a 50-50 split but offer any player who signed a new deal after July 1 the option of having it rescinded and returning to whatever RFA or UFA status they had and allow them the opportunity to re-negotiate under the new CBA. Look and see how many players say no thanks because they know they still have it good. But also look at owners like Minnesota saying wait wait wait we can manage somehow.

I've had enough. I'm outta here until Jan and hopefully when I get back we have hockey, or not. I just don't miss it yet.

I'm with Hockey Widow, all this bull-shit is very boring. Let me know when you idiots ( Bettman and Feur) come to your senses and arrive at a 50 50 agreement. Until then just shut the fuck up, I have better things to do.

Apparently the league has proposed a meeting between owners and players with no league or PA personnel involved.

Taking it a step further it would be interesting to see a group of owners and a group of NHLPA team reps sit down to try to hammer things out, with input from each side as to who is chosen so the league doesn't just send their eight hard liners into the room.

It seems pretty clear that this negotiation has been hijacked by hard liners, and getting some of them out of the discussion while hopefully adding some more moderate voices on each side could result in progress.

Of course, I guess at the end of the day no matter who puts a new CBA proposal together, the hard liners either have to agree with it or be shouted down by their peers.. don't have too much hope that either of those things happen.

Hockey Widow wrote:And yet you have a team like Minnesota, that showed an operating loss, sign two of the biggest deals in the off season, now crying that they need a new deal to be competitive. And they can't make whole. This is the part that irks me. These deals that were not negotiated or signed in good faith by the owners who knew that they would be trying to weasel out of them. Everyone, including Uncle Dan's Leg, knew that the signing push was all about beating the deadline for the expiring CBA yet the owners still engaged in this frenzy knowing they had no intention of honouring the deals.

Hockey Widow wrote: Everyone, including Uncle Dan's Leg, knew that the signing push was all about beating the deadline for the expiring CBA yet the owners still engaged in this frenzy knowing they had no intention of honouring the deals.

Whew! At least I'm current...I was worried I was falling behind
It seems to me that even though these people have all been saying they want to get a deal done, they don't really want to do what's required to make it happen. Compromise.
Neither side is any worse or better, they're both being guided by pig headed, egotistical megalomaniacs who are more bent on "winning" the negotiation than getting a deal done. It can only be a good thing to pull these dickheads out of the next meeting and see if cooler heads will prevail. This would be conditional on the notion that anyone involved is objective and of balanced mind...I have my doubts. We can only hope.

dbr wrote:Apparently the league has proposed a meeting between owners and players with no league or PA personnel involved.

Taking it a step further it would be interesting to see a group of owners and a group of NHLPA team reps sit down to try to hammer things out, with input from each side as to who is chosen so the league doesn't just send their eight hard liners into the room.

It seems pretty clear that this negotiation has been hijacked by hard liners, and getting some of them out of the discussion while hopefully adding some more moderate voices on each side could result in progress.

I wonder if Jacobs is going to be in the room? If I'm Fehr (or any union head for that matter) I would never agree to this.

Meanwhile Max Pacioretty apparently has had a lien placed on his property for not being to afford $65 K worth of renovations. Really makes me wonder who is worst with money the players or the owners...

+10000000000
They all cry "poor me" but they're ALL to blame. I'm not siding with anyone except the poor bastards who are going to have a broke Christmas because they're concession, parking, etc jobs are in limbo due to this crap.

Hockey Widow wrote:And yet you have a team like Minnesota, that showed an operating loss, sign two of the biggest deals in the off season, now crying that they need a new deal to be competitive. And they can't make whole. This is the part that irks me. These deals that were not negotiated or signed in good faith by the owners who knew that they would be trying to weasel out of them. Everyone, including Uncle Dan's Leg, knew that the signing push was all about beating the deadline for the expiring CBA yet the owners still engaged in this frenzy knowing they had no intention of honouring the deals.

The players pretty clearly knew this as well.

Which is why I said:
"And the other side of that equation seems to be a major stumbling block by those high paid long term players that want a make whole. They too knew that the CBA was expiring and that there was a high probability that a roll back or cap drop or something was going to hit them. They are all disingenuous, players and owners."

Hockey Widow wrote:And yet you have a team like Minnesota, that showed an operating loss, sign two of the biggest deals in the off season, now crying that they need a new deal to be competitive. And they can't make whole. This is the part that irks me. These deals that were not negotiated or signed in good faith by the owners who knew that they would be trying to weasel out of them. Everyone, including Uncle Dan's Leg, knew that the signing push was all about beating the deadline for the expiring CBA yet the owners still engaged in this frenzy knowing they had no intention of honouring the deals.

The players pretty clearly knew this as well.

Which is why I said:
"And the other side of that equation seems to be a major stumbling block by those high paid long term players that want a make whole. They too knew that the CBA was expiring and that there was a high probability that a roll back or cap drop or something was going to hit them. They are all disingenuous, players and owners."

Well if I hadn't glazed over that the first time, my response to your post would seem pretty frickin pointless then, wouldn't it...

What bothers me is that they're going about it the wrong way. It's fundamental in any labour conflict to try to do as little harm as possible to any third party in the equation. Once the factory opens again it is in the interest of factory owner and workers alike that you haven't scared away the customers. A strike or lockout is a weapon of last resort. If it happens, which it preferably never should, everybody loses. The owners lose revenue, the players lose salary and downpayments on their hall of fame monter, the league loses goodwill, the media loses interest (bye-bye tv contracts) and the fans get screwed.

You negotiate in good faith and only threaten with a strike or lockout if all else fails. You don't use it as your very first move. That's just wrong in every respect! You don't start by killing the hostage before you negotiate. Every bank robber knows that. That's what you threaten to do. Why should they do what you ask them, when you already did the unthinkable?

The best strike I've ever seen was once when we were in Paris. There was a metro strike, and at first we got worried that this would mess with our plans, but no worries! The workers on strike were still driving the metro trains, but they refused to sell or check tickets, so every one got to ride for free!

Brilliant move! That way they hit the owners hard in the wallet, I mean the strike is even costlier if the trains are still running but not generating any revenue, and the third party, the regulars as well as tourists, were not hurt at all.

So what ace does Bettman have up his sleave now?
He started the poker game by playing his best card, and it apparently did not have the effect he hoped for.
What next?

Per, the lockout was the ONLY move. What were the owners supposed to do ? Play out the season until March and then have the players go on strike after they made 90% of their salaries. Anyone with a half a brain in their head knows this would have been a horrible move by the owners and it would have shifted all the leverage to the players. Donald Fehr has and would take great glee in pulling the pin on the season to enforce his will on the owners. He is the same cunt that destroyed the 1994 MLB season 2/3 of the way through.

Blob Mckenzie wrote:Per, the lockout was the ONLY move. What were the owners supposed to do ? Play out the season until March and then have the players go on strike after they made 90% of their salaries. Anyone with a half a brain in their head knows this would have been a horrible move by the owners and it would have shifted all the leverage to the players. Donald Fehr has and would take great glee in pulling the pin on the season to enforce his will on the owners. He is the same cunt that destroyed the 1994 MLB season 2/3 of the way through.

I think you are putting to much importance on the Baseball strike, it was a different battle with different circumstances, and Fehr is smart enough to know it.
Besides as it stands, this forum aside, the players have all the public good will (such as it is.) Had they started the season on time a strike by the players in the spring canceling the playoffs would have been a nightmare PR move on the players part and the Fans would not be holding the league in such contempt.

In such a scenario when they do get back playing there wouldn't be near the backlash that is gonna come from this lockout.

Per wrote:
So what ace does Bettman have up his sleave now?
He started the poker game by playing his best card, and it apparently did not have the effect he hoped for.
What next?

What's next depends on when the drop dead date is for the entire season. I think that's the midnight hour, and we shall see then who blinks... If it goes past that, and the season is lost, what's to stop de-certification and the nightmare legal battle that is sure to follow is better question.

If we can't have an agreement that suits both parties now, part of me would like to see what happens with all bets off.
would it be a free-for-all by the rich clubs signing all the best players and the weak sisters going bankrupt.
Does the whole house of cards come down and a new smaller more competitive league rise out of the mess?
would it be a retrenchment similar to the CFL in the 90s?
what would the league look like, if a player took one too many stupid penalties costing his team the win on saturday and was cut on monday look like?

Blob Mckenzie wrote:Per, the lockout was the ONLY move. What were the owners supposed to do ? Play out the season until March and then have the players go on strike after they made 90% of their salaries. Anyone with a half a brain in their head knows this would have been a horrible move by the owners and it would have shifted all the leverage to the players. Donald Fehr has and would take great glee in pulling the pin on the season to enforce his will on the owners. He is the same cunt that destroyed the 1994 MLB season 2/3 of the way through.

I think you are putting to much importance on the Baseball strike, it was a different battle with different circumstances, and Fehr is smart enough to know it.
Besides as it stands, this forum aside, the players have all the public good will (such as it is.) Had they started the season on time a strike by the players in the spring canceling the playoffs would have been a nightmare PR move on the players part and the Fans would not be holding the league in such contempt.

In such a scenario when they do get back playing there wouldn't be near the backlash that is gonna come from this lockout.

No I'm not, it may have been slightly different and Fehr is a cunt that could care less about the sport or any sport for that matter.

The player do not have all the goodwill.....maybe in England they do ??? Then again you people throw blood bombs and urine bombs at each other and beat the fuck out of one another over a soccer game pretty much daily........ soooo

If Donald Fehr actually cared about the game and its future i may stop bringing up the baseball fiasco he was 100 % responsible for in 94. He is a lawyer and a hired gun and nothing more. He is a fucking pariah and the sooner he steps away from this negotiation , the sooner a deal is done. Do your homework before bumping your gums.