Anybody seen any of the new .17 HMR rifles and ammo?

22boomer
Member
Posts: 12
(1/21/02 9:22:42 am)
Reply Anybody seen any of the new .17 HMR rifles and ammo?
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I just saw an article in the "American Rifleman" about a new .17 caliber rimfire cartridge based on the .22 WMR and there would be rifles coming out soon for this cartridge. Has anybody seen any of the ammo or these rifles for sale yet?
I have a Remington 5MM magnum rimfire and I got a conversion for it so I could shoot 5MM centerfire cartridges in it. I like shooting this rifle and thought that the new .17 HMR (ammo is made by Hornady I believe) would be just as much fun.

LIKTOSHOOT
Senior Chief Moderator Staff
Posts: 3499
(1/21/02 10:31:41 am)
Reply Re: Anybody seen any of the new .17 HMR rifles and ammo?
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I guess this will be the next 5mm death round, because I see no need for it. Many just need something else to buy. This .17 looses me right from the front. Hornady claims a 2550fps.....big deal, the original .17 was almost twice that....that made it fun and most .22 magnums approach that speed now, with a 40grn. bullet. Eight bucks a 50 and people complain of .22 mag. prices?????? I can do it with a .22 mag. if needed and cheaper,this does not even fill a niche...LTS

a young shooter
Member
Posts: 6
(1/21/02 10:37:55 am)
Reply Re: Anybody seen any of the new .17 HMR rifles and ammo?
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Why? Why would you need this? Sounds to me like some idea someone got on the shiter. well just my opion.
i woul rather buy a 22-250 get tons of muzzle volicity buy some dies for 22-250 (i do have a set) reload so it is cheper. mybe thats just me but i still don't see the point.
ays

AntiqueDr
Senior Chief Moderator Staff
Posts: 1815
(1/21/02 10:59:32 am)
Reply
ezSupporter
Re: Anybody seen any of the new .17 HMR rifles and ammo?
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The market they are trying to address is short-range plinking and varmint control, where .22-250's or even .222's are too much. Unfortunately, their Marketing people are all apparently too young to remember the 5mm Remington.

This is going to be a flash-in-the-pan. They would have been much better off working with the .22 Hornet or even putting out a factory load based on the K-Hornet or Mashburn Bee. THAT would get some interest, and be reloadable to boot.

It seems that firearms marketing is cyclical. Winchester's "new" action that has boosted their sales astronomically is actually the old action (smart thing). Winchester's ridiculous "Gun of the Year" is a lever-action .410 that can only handle 2 1/2" shells (stupid thing). And now a sub-caliber rimfire that is expensive to shoot and doesnt do anything well enough to make it stand out.

Maybe the R&D people think this generation is less sophisticated than earlier ones, and the ideas that wouldn't wash then now have a chance.
We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!www.apaxenterprises.com

22boomer
Member
Posts: 13
(1/21/02 11:30:57 am)
Reply Re: Anybody seen any of the new .17 HMR rifles and ammo?
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I understand all the reasons you have mentioned that might make this a bad idea. I bought the 5 MM years ago and saw it die. I liked to shoot it - back then it was a hot little rimfire. I even went and bought the conversion so the rifle can be used with centerfire ammo. The centerfire cartridge is exactly the same dimensions as the original 5mm rimfire. It's easy to reload and makes what would have been just another junk rifle into one I can shoot again. I was hoping that the .17 HMR ammo would not be any more than the .22 WMR and that with the Hornady V-Max bullet would make a nice (as AntiqueDr put it) short range plinking and varmint rifle. If Hornady could figure a way to manufacture the ammo so they could sell it for a lot less than the .22 WMR, maybe it might just get popular.

22boomer
Member
Posts: 14
(1/21/02 11:47:52 am)
Reply Re: Anybody seen any of the new .17 HMR rifles and ammo?
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I just called Hornady and they said "If you buy the ammo direct from us it will be $12 a box of 50" --- screw that. I like my little centerfire 5MM and I'll just stick with it -- and my .22 WMR rifles.

MkVI
Member
Posts: 1
(2/27/02 1:59:18 am)
Reply Re: Anybody seen any of the new .17 HMR rifles and ammo?
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Boomer: Your post came up when I was searching out 5mm Remington/CF conversions. I have one of the converted rifles en route and would love to hear your feed back on loads, etc., if you have the time. Please feel free to e-mail me at marlinmanssv@hotmail.com

Thanks!

Edited by: MkVI at: 2/27/02 2:01:21 am

Hangfire
Member
Posts: 21
(2/27/02 1:51:30 pm)
Reply Re: Anybody seen any of the new .17 HMR rifles and ammo?
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I just don't have a gap in my collection it would fill. I have .22 LR's and a .22 hornet. If I was to spend the money I would get a .22 Mag or just something else. I'm very slow at jumping on the new caliber bandwagons. The price of the ammo alone is enough to keep me away.

Artimus Pyle
Member
Posts: 1
(2/27/02 5:53:50 pm)
Reply Re: Anybody seen any of the new .17 HMR rifles and ammo?
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Ya you guys hit that nail on the head! Remember that piece of crap .17 Remington, Ha! No one ever shoots that anymore. Too small of a bullet, couldn't take the wind, broke up on the lightest game and wounded more groundhogs than I can count.

warpig883
*TFF Staff*
Posts: 2606
(2/27/02 6:00:30 pm)
Reply Re: Anybody seen any of the new .17 HMR rifles and ammo?
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I will stick with a nice Marlin bolt action .22 mag anyday
We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans... -- Bill Clinton, US President (USA Today, 11 Mar 1993, page 2a)

Vibe77
Member
Posts: 2
(2/28/02 12:40:11 am)
Reply > Re: Anybody seen any of the new .17 HMR rifles and ammo
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17 Rem? Yep I know several folks that shoot it. Know of one whitetail taken with it at 600 yards. I don't have any idea where you got the notion that "no one shoots it anymore". POS? Not hardly. Never the less the 17 HMR is NOT a 17 Rem, nor will it have the bullet blow up problem that one sees when pushing those pills up past 4200fps. Apples and oranges.

warpig883
*TFF Staff*
Posts: 2620
(2/28/02 1:37:24 am)
Reply Re: > Re: Anybody seen any of the new .17 HMR rifles and
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Whitetail at 600 yards with a 17 Rem. I will call Bull Sh*t on that one. Not trying to make you mad but you are basically saying someone killed a deer with a bb at over 1/4 mile.

I know what the penetration of my 22-250 is on a 3/4" plank at 400 yards and I know it will not kill a deer at 600 yards.

You make me laugh
We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans... -- Bill Clinton, US President (USA Today, 11 Mar 1993, page 2a)

Vibe77
Member
Posts: 3
(2/28/02 9:02:42 am)
Reply Re: Anybody seen any of the new .17 HMR rifles and
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LOL. Then we are both getting a good chuckle. Talk to Corbin Shell about the 17s at long range...he shoots them at 1000 yards, with very respectable groups. The whitetail I spoke of was a solid ear shot, and while Corbin was not the man who took the deer, he has proved that the round is still super sonic at those ranges hitting milk jugs at 625 yards. Never underestimate proper shot placement.

Hangfire
Member
Posts: 23
(2/28/02 1:52:00 pm)
Reply Re: Anybody seen any of the new .17 HMR rifles and
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Even thinking about shooting a deer at that range with such a small caliber is just plain irrisponsible. The chance of wounding an animal is too great. An ethical hunter only takes a shot with a high kill percentage. I'm happy to say in 25 years of big-game hunting I've only lost one animal.

Artimus Pyle
Member
Posts: 2
(2/28/02 9:23:34 pm)
Reply Re: > Re: Anybody seen any of the new .17 HMR rifles and
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Hey Vibe that last post of mine was just about as sarcastic as can be. I've been shooting the .17 for a while. I've got a .17 Rem Contender & a custom Martini in .17 Jet. One nice thing about these guns is the lack of recoil and the destruction they cause. I can't wait to pick up a .17 rimfire.

Vibe77
Member
Posts: 4
(2/28/02 11:47:58 pm)
Reply Re: Anybody seen any of the new .17 HMR rifles and
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No prob Artimus, though it would seem that there are others here without the ability to enjoy such. I'm sorry I missed the sarcasm at the time, it's readily apparent now, that you point it out. I guess it's like camo though, if it looks mostly the same as the surroundings one can easily mistake it as such, until it's pointed out to be different. I too have several 17s in mind.

Stormrider
Member
Posts: 1
(3/9/02 8:44:33 am)
Reply 17 Rimfire
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Just read some of the comments on the new 17 caliber. It seems to be a viable caliber for small game. In some states it is illegal to hunt small game with anything but a rimfire. I had a 5mm Remington and thought it was a blast to shoot. Will this take the 5mm's place? Possibly, if they get the ammo reasonable enough. As far as shooting deer at 600 yards with a small caliber, a head shot would be the only shot to take. Anyone that doesn't think this is possible, is probably using their own capabilities (or lack of) as a measurement to judge others. It is my opinion that anyone who has not actually fired the 17 shouldn't be too fast to dismiss it. After all if it wasn't for a few forward thinkers we'd still be shooting flintlocks.

When judging the merits off a 600 yard shot on deer with a .17 I am not basing my opinion on my skill or lack thereof, but rather on the ethics of responsible hunting and the morals that I was raised with when it comes to harvesting animals.

While a properly placed shot from a .22lr will kill big game I am not going to try it at 600 yards.

I wonder what the energy of this itty bitty buddit is at 600 yards?

In what state is it legal to hunt deer with a .17?
We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans... -- Bill Clinton, US President (USA Today, 11 Mar 1993, page 2a)

22boomer
Member
Posts: 21
(3/9/02 3:21:44 pm)
Reply Re: Anybody seen any of the new .17 HMR rifles and ammo?
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Stormrider,
Do you still have the 5mm rifle. I just saw the post from "MK VI" and I guess he did the same thing I did -- convert it to centerfire! It can probably match or better the .17 HMR and can be reloaded. I haven't shot the rifle in a long time and it's no heavy barreled job but it was a heck of a nice little short range varmint rifle. I could get both solid and hollow point bullets for it. I made a little mistake and bought 32gr V-Max .20 cal. bullets and had to single load them into the rifle -- they where just a little too long for the magazine. The 5mm loaded with the V-Max bullet looks just like the new .17 HMR. Of course, side by side, you could probably see the slight size difference in the bullets.

Two) It was made with a 17 Remington, probably closer to a 30 grain bullet(I do not recall if he even told me what the load was or not)

Three) this round is still supersonic at 600 meters

Four) If the facts are correct, and I was mistaken, I don't mind being corrected. This was not the case in this post.

LIKTOSHOOT
*TFF Senior Staff*
Posts: 4120
(3/10/02 10:59:43 am)
Reply Re: Liktoshoot
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Heh, don`t take me that serious....I`m the resident stirrer. But I will add to the mix, some empty numbers, based on an empty mind. The fastest .17 Rem. that I have seen is 4325fps. fired from a custom 27 1/2" Shilen barrel, using a 25grn bullet, now viewing the chart I placed above AND the "fps" here (custom barrel) it still does not add up (600 yards) can`t find my load data, but will. Simply stirring the pot for long shots........but 1,000 yards raises my eyebrow too......you? LTS

Vibe77
Member
Posts: 6
(3/10/02 11:23:57 am)
Reply A little stirring is usually needed
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Jusy to keep the soup from getting crusty on the bottom. No problem with that. Check out Saubier.com for some 1000 yaed shooting with 17s. Again, it's not with the 17 grain 17HMR, or even the 17 Rem. but the retained accuracy will also raise your eyebrows.

LIKTOSHOOT
*TFF Senior Staff*
Posts: 4121
(3/10/02 12:55:42 pm)
Reply Re: A little stirring is usually needed
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I failed to find any 1,000 yard information on any .17 Remington or otherwise.....maybe you could guide me a little more, below is all I could find on any .17.....further proving my theory. A 600 yard head shot on a deer......seems luck at best, and not a shot most would take. Agree? Disagree? Still not buying it, more proof please. Thank you. LTS

-Ken

Corbin's Corner
.17 Remington Range Results 200-525yards Butner, NC September 25, 2001
Have you ever wondered how factory ammunition compares to handloads? I set out to find the answer. First let me outline what I wanted to accomplish and determine during my testing this week.

Is factory ammunition as good as handloads?
Bullet drop of factory .17 Remington ammunition with 25gr Remington bullets.
How good are the 25gr bullets in the wind
Bullet drop of handloaded 30gr berger bullets
How good are the 30gr bullets in the wind
Fist off let me give a run down of the components as some might not be following my "series" shooting the .17 Rem at distance.

Above is the target shot at 200 and 300 yards with the factory ammo loaded with 25 grain bullets.

Above is the target shot at 400 yards with the factory ammo.

NO scope adjustments were made beyond the 200 yard line. NO consideration to wind was made once centered at 200 yards. After firing the 40 rounds of factory ammunition the rifle was cleaned with solvent, approximately 10 patches. No brushing was done. (May have been a mistake).

Shooting started with the factory Remington ammunition lot # J30NB1519. If anyone can decipher this code please let me know when this stuff was manufactured. I used an inertia bullet puller to dislodge the bullets out about .100" and then reseated them to rest .010" into the lands on my rifle. The first 5 shots were cronographed. The numbers are as follows:

High- 4209 fps
Low- 4162 fps
Ext spread- 47 fps
Mean- 4182 fps
SD- 17 fps
Group size
200 yards- 1 5/16" wide X 1 15/16" high
300 yards- 5 3/16" wide X 3 5/16" high
400 yards- 5 15/16" wide X 3 7/8" high
525 yards- 19 ¼" wide X 8 ½" high – 9 shots on paper
Bullet drop from the aiming bull is as follows: (Center of the group)
200 yards- centered
300 yards- 5" low
400 yards- 20" low
525 yards- 56" low
Now lets look at wind drift. I did not adjust for the switching wind flags or mirage. Shot "straight away". As you can see from the photos, wind DOES move bullets!!!!! If you were to drop a plumb line from the center of the aiming bull to the bottom of the target here are the results. Wind deflection is measured from the center of the target to the "Center" of the group. Keep in mind these are averages.

Wind drift from center plumb line. Group average

200 yards- centered
300 yards- 3 shots directly in plumb- 7 shots to the right 4 inches
400 yards- 1 shot left of center by 1.5 inches. 9 shots 2.5" to right
525 yards- 2 shots in plumb. 7shots spread out to right side 13" to middle of group.
ONLY 9 shots on paper
Upon seeing that there was a missing shot I figured the wind had picked up and blew it off the right side of the target. Another possibility was that the bullet did not clear the 400 yard burm as it is fairly high. More on this later.

My handloads are 23.5gr of varget with a 30gr Berger. The load was NOT cronographed during these test. It was cronographed several weeks ago and the velocity was 3750fps. The same shooting format was used as described earlier. The results are as follows:

Above is a picture of the 200 yard target shot with 30 grain Berger’s in my handload.

Above is a picture of the group shot at 400 yards with handloads (30 grain Bergers).

Above is a picture of the groups shot at 200 and 300 yards using the handloads (30 grain Bergers).

Drop from aiming bull

200 yards- centered
300 yards- 6"
400 yards- 18.5"
525 yards- 43.5"

Wind drift from center plumb line- Group average

200 yards- 1 ¼" left
300 yards- 3" left to 1.5" right (ONLY 9 shots on paper)
400 yards- 4" left whole group (ONLY 7 shots on paper)
525 yards- 6" right- 12" right max deflection (ONLY 6 shots on paper)
As the saying goes the proof is in the pudding and the pudding is on the paper. Now back to the question of the missing shots. As best as I can say, those missing shots are due to excessive barrel fouling. I only lost one of the 25gr Remington bullets out of 40 shots. The barrel was squeaky clean before starting these tests. After shooting the Remington bullets the barrel was cleaned with about 10 solvent soaked patches. NO brushes were used. This is where I think the mistake was made. I subsequently lost eight shots with the Berger 30 gr bullets. All lost during the final strings of shooting 400 and 525 yards. I have never before lost a single bullet in this barrel until these test. Currently the barrel has been fired 400 times. It is possible the carbon and copper fouling started tearing the jackets.

My conclusions after firing only 40 rounds of each type projectile are some what mixed. For the occasional shooter, factory ammunition will most likely suit all there needs (at least to 400 yards). The factory ammo shoots very flat out to 400 yards and groups fairly well to that distance. Beyond 400 yards I feel it gives up way too much to the heavier 30gr bullet.

The 30gr bullet traveling at 3750 fps muzzle velocity drops less at 400 yards and beyond. Drop is significantly less at 500 + yards. Wind deflection is also greatly reduced. One draw back to bullets made with J4 jackets is that they are so thin. Bullet blow ups are something most will experience sooner or later when shooting bullets made with J4 jackets.

I will end with an observation about recovered 30gr bullets. Impact distance of 550 yards. It rained very heavily yesterday and the ground was still pretty saturated. I was able to recover two projectiles that were fired at a small target J . Both completely mushroomed and one lost the core entirely.

As for the 600 yard head shot. Would I take it? No. But I wouldn't take it with a 30-06 either. I'm not that practiced at ranges over 100 yards and know my limitations. The man who made the shot told me the story a good 6 years ago. Unfortunately I've moved since then (more than twice in fact) and have lost touch with him. But even then I was under the impression that it was not a recent occurance even then. He did say that the people he was hunting with derided him for even imagining that that little bitty bullet could bring down a deer. That is untill they felt the "bag of marbles" that the skull felt like afterwards. That was the way he described it. Shattered completely.

--- At 1000 yards the bullet drop was 483 inches! I guess a 40+ foot drop ins't too bad for a 1000 yards. I can't see the sight at the end of the barrel so I guess you can count me out of the 1000 yard matches.

LIKTOSHOOT
*TFF Senior Staff*
Posts: 4139
(3/11/02 12:04:37 pm)
Reply Re: I don't know about that
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I`d like to know how foot pounds were figured (energy) 53lbs at 1,000 yards. Looks like some one has way to much time on their hands and a Durn big target is the scope even on the gun.....must be sitting vertical........Gheesh, now I can rest my case.......fruit-loop comes to mind...........LTS

22boomer
Member
Posts: 23
(3/11/02 1:04:23 pm)
Reply Re: I don't know about that
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seems to me the ft/lbs energy should be more like 26.5 ft/lbs for 1000 yards but then I ran way out of fingers and toes on this one.

I should have shot for the head
We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans... -- Bill Clinton, US President (USA Today, 11 Mar 1993, page 2a)

Smallisfun
Member
Posts: 1
(4/10/02 12:12:00 am)
Reply Re: > Re: Anybody seen any of the new .17 HMR rifles and
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Ya, Right. The first time I saw a elk killed at 550yrd with a 25-06 I was sold on bullet placement. My Grandfather borrowed my 5mm sherdian pump pellet gun and shot at some horses in my Grandmother's garden. Aimed high to make sure to hit the mare in the flank and killed the colt standing behind her. I would only hope that when I make a great shot I have a friend that is standing next to me to verify the shot. Yes, 600 yards is along ways away, but if you calculate in the rotation of the earth and H/S cubed you could make it happen.
Smallisfun
Just ask my wife!

Vibe77
Member
Posts: 10
(4/10/02 2:55:22 am)
Reply Re: > Re: Anybody seen any of the new .17 HMR rifles and
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That story of the 5mm air rifle killing a colt reminded me. There was a man convicted and serving time for killing another man. His claim that he didn't mean to hit the other man just didn't wash for some reason...even thogh the weapon used was a 22lr and the range was measured later to be right at 850 yards. Poor judgement and Murphy intervening in the luck department. Bad combination anyway you look at it.

scomer
Member
Posts: 1
(4/17/02 6:32:55 pm)
Reply Re: Liktoshoot
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At the risk of repeating only what I've read--the article in AMERICAN RIFLEMAN--the reason for the .17 HMR was to advance the state of the rimfire (which hasn't received any real massaging since the .22 WMR in the late 50's--no offense intended to the 5mm fans, but the demise of the cartridge was due to the fact that it basically duplicated what was already available).

To be honest, I didn't believe it until I ran the numbers through my ballistics software. However, after doing that, I went right out and purchased a Ruger 10-22 Magnum, anticipating that aftermarket barrels would be available soon (Pro-Cor is already advertising them, Green Mountain says they'll be here this summer, and Butler Creek is saying January, 2003). Worst case scenario--I'll have a fine autoloading .22 WMR with a useless barrel.

However, I'm anticipating something worthwhile here. CCI made all the cases for the development of the cartridge. I have 5 different CCI .22 WMR loads sitting on my ammo shelf right now. While the std. 17-gr. V-Max is amazing, I would be VERY surprised if CCI doesn't bring out it's own interpretations of this load.

Run the ballistics for yourself. I think the Hodg/Marlin/Ruger team succeeded--they have taken the rimfire genre to another level. I'm looking forward to playing with it.

LIKTOSHOOT
*TFF Senior Staff*
Posts: 4619
(4/17/02 7:50:07 pm)
Reply Re: Liktoshoot
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Lets see, 22LR....100 yards now. .22 Mag. 200 yards now. 17HRM 300????? doubtful. Their selling it hard. Rimfire is for plinking cheaply, $10.00 a box of fifty (LR) ain`t cheap, thats the exact reason the .22 Magnum has been so hard to get of the ground and it`s just now getting there, but still pricey. But it ain`t ten dollars a fifty either. The drift and drop of a 17grn bullet is almost laughable to me. It serves NO hunting purpose, so it is a catagory round.....paper and varmits (maybe)Don`t think this is new either, this is the same hoopla as the 5mm of yesteryear and do not forget that "COOPER RIFLES" tried this years ago.....thats right .17.......FLOP! The reason everyone is making guns and parts in a fury......suck the market dry up front, cause this is going to be a short one. Buy a pelletgun. LTS

By the way.... WELCOME!
T.F.F.

scomer
Member
Posts: 2
(4/18/02 10:14:05 am)
Reply Re: Liktoshoot
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I couldn't find the ballistic coefficient of the new 17-gr. V-Max, so had to extrapolate an "intelligent guess" using the 20-gr. V-Max. Again, would urge you to run the numbers, since it is definitely counter-intuitive. I'm intrigued enough to want to play with it (which is the REAL reason we're in love with this sport, isn't it?).

LOL. Liked your comment about getting a pellet rifle. Ahead of you on that one--did an article for American Airgunner many moons ago on a pneumatically-charged handgun with which I had great hunting success. Maybe that's why the .17 HMR is appealing--strikes a resonant chord.

Thanks for the welcome--looks like a good group of folks.

LIKTOSHOOT
*TFF Senior Staff*
Posts: 4631
(4/18/02 10:50:29 am)
Reply Re: Liktoshoot
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No doubt they will get into our pockets with this one. Saw that Volsquarsten already has rifles for sale....built on the magnum receiver, base model $900.00 and jumps fast from there. Speed is one thing, but even a 20grn looses energy so fast....the killing power for varmits is questionable beyond 200 yards. Can it be done?, sure, many will claim 400 yard kills or shots......"claim," being the key word. I`ll just be a stick in the mud and pass this one by. Have way too much fun with the .22LR and Mag. and cheaper too. Burning a thousand rounds in a day...makes for cheap fun, but not a $10.00 a fifty and no reloads. I`ll bet that in the works right now are bullet designs for the magnum AND it will compete strongly with the .17........why? because you can keep the case size the same and reshape the bullet AND lighten it.....it will then outpreform the .17HRM......then the tables will be turned AND the .17 will die. Wanna bet??? LTS
T.F.F.

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