JPS wrote:I am really getting tire of all these people who talk about animal cruelty because they read it in a book. These people really don't have a clue what the vast majority of livestock producers do for their animals. I grew up on a dairy farm. Everything revolved around the cows. They were fed and taken care of before we ate. At the time we were one of the larger dairies in the area. All the cows had a name and we knew each and everyone by their name, their habits and manor when milking them.

People who think that animal cruelty is theis the rule rather than the exception just don't get it. If you are cruel to the animals, they will not perform to their maximum and if they don't perform to their maximum you don't make money.

You can be a vegan or vegatarian, that's your choice. Don't try to justify it with claims that animal cruelty is widespread because it isn't. I know people who are vegans or vegatatarians and they always make comments about our lifestyles when we don't make comments about theirs.

I don't hear you saying anything about the male calves born every year to cows. Please tell us about the idyllic lives that they lead. Go into detail about how long the cows get to be with their calves. Tell us about the crate sizes that the male calves get to live in for a few months on a liquid diet which gives them perpetual diarrhea. Tell us about the life expectancy of the average milk cow. How long can she hold out producing 100 gallons of milk every day? Does she get to live 5 years before her weight breaks her calcium-leached bones? You are right. People just do not know how you treat your animals.

Your response shows your lack of knowledge with agriculture old enough. Agriculture is a business not some fantasy world. Do you work for a business?? I'm sure I can find issues with your job.

One, you talk about how long the calf is with the mother. Typically 12 to 24 hours. Why so short? It is a business and milk is the product. The calves are generally well taken care of.

You talk about the male calves and crates. Well that is veal and is a business that is dying out. Also, you unfortunately haven't kept up on the regulations. Those crates that everyone envisions with veal are long gone. Probably more than 20 years ago. you talk about the diarrhea they have. Leave a calf on a dairy cow and they will have diarrhea all the time as well. Why? They produce too much milk.

Most of the male calves are raised as beef animals. Look in the feedlots and you will see many holsteins in the yards or can you really tell what is what when you pass a feedlot.

You talk about a cow producing 100 gallons of milk per day. Really?? This shows your lack of knowledge to this issue. So you are telling me that a 1200 to 1400 lb cow can produce 800 lbs of milk. Look it up because you really don't know.

Calcium depleted bones??? This really shows your lack of knowledge. Never seen it and have never heard of it in a dairy. Why??? They feed a completely balanced ration. Cows will not produce milk if they are trying to take the calcium from their bones.

What about you and your life. How much do you impose on other people? More than you know. Do you drive a car? Well you are polluting the air I breath. Do you pee and poop and flush it down the toliet into the sewer??? Well you are polluting the water people downstream depend upon. How about electricity? Again you are polluting the air I breath.

You wish to push your elitist views on everyone. Well, if you wish that be prepared for other people to push their views on you even if you don't like it. This is the United States of America, not the old communist USSR. If you don't like things such as meat, vote with your pocket book and don't buy it. If enough people feel that way then agriculture will change to meet those needs.

First of all, I voted with my pocketbook over 20 years ago and stopped buying meat and milk. I stopped eating veal 20 years before that.

You have defended the bad treatment of your animals with the excuse that it is "business". Atrocities performed in the name of business are still atrocities.

The calf gets to spend ONE day with its mother - wow - that is compassionate of you.

You say that things have changed - then how do you explain the videos that are available now such as pictures of piles of dead calves by the side of the road waiting for pickup. They are the unwanted by-product of your "business". Or the videos of cows with broken legs being pushed into the slaughter house with a front end loader?

You didn't address the 5 to 7 year life span of a dairy cow. Cows can live 20 years if not forced to produce the huge amounts of milk they do. I didn't ask about it but what about the hormones fed to cows in order to produce those huge amounts? I love the new label on some milk cartons - "No Added Hormones". What does that mean - you didn't add hormones after the cow was milked?

Some activities are indefensible and your "business" is one of them.

Last edited by old enough on May 18th, 2012, 6:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

I am a registered dietitian who promotes a plant strong diet. A 2009 study in the British Medical Journal reported that longevity is associated (in order of significance) 1. moderate alcohol (don't you love that one) 2. Low meat/animal product consumption 3. High vegetable intake 4. High fruit and nut intake 5. High olive oil intake 6. High legume (beans and peas) intake. Even the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics (formerly the American Dietetic Association) states that a well-planned vegetarian/vegan diet is healthy and may provide prevention and treatment of certain diseases as well as being appropriate for all stages of life- of course the key is well planned. http://www.eatright.org/About/Content.aspx?id=8357With that said you don't have to be vegetarian or vegan to start benefiting from a plant-full diet. Just start leaning into more whole plant based foods even if you don't want to give up meat and dairy. To learn more or if you are a vegetarian/vegan wanting to ensure you are not missing any nutrients then contact me OffTheMatNutrition@Gmail.com. Regardless, we ALL can gain an edge from a whole foods diet with more fruits, vegetables and nuts. Elizabeth, RD, LDN

BABaracus wrote:Hi folks! So, I got up this morning and had a nice breakfast with the kids. Then we rode bikes to Noah's school. After that, I took Kaya to school and went back to Noah's school to help out in his classroom. Kaya and I then had a nice lunch and worked in the garden all afternoon. I did spend about a half hour on the computer, kinda boring, I know. Then we rode to school to get Noah and went to the playground and swim practice. After that, came home and had a great dinner with some great friends who just left. Kids are in bed and now I will enjoy some time with my wonderful husband. What a fantastic day! I love my days off! Have a good night all! Get out there and enjoy life!

Ya know, there are places you can post about your daily life. Like Twitter, or a blog. I don't think this has a whole lot of interest to the people who comment on articles here..

Actually sealbee this was necessary - it showed the trolls that have posted that some people can get on with living, and not let others bring them down, or continue to draw them in. Looking at how many times some people post - kinda proves they don't have a life.

Sorry Linda, that post has nothing to do with the article. Like I said, there is Twitter or a blog. Just trying to point out the obvious to those who can't see it.

The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But underthe name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialistprogram, until one day America will be a Socialist nation.

BABaracus wrote:Hi folks! So, I got up this morning and had a nice breakfast with the kids. Then we rode bikes to Noah's school. After that, I took Kaya to school and went back to Noah's school to help out in his classroom. Kaya and I then had a nice lunch and worked in the garden all afternoon. I did spend about a half hour on the computer, kinda boring, I know. Then we rode to school to get Noah and went to the playground and swim practice. After that, came home and had a great dinner with some great friends who just left. Kids are in bed and now I will enjoy some time with my wonderful husband. What a fantastic day! I love my days off! Have a good night all! Get out there and enjoy life!

Ya know, there are places you can post about your daily life. Like Twitter, or a blog. I don't think this has a whole lot of interest to the people who comment on articles here..

She is the mother of the family in the vegan article and has been commenting on the article for over a day.

I don't see anything about the article in her post. It's the kind of stuff I read on Facebook. Just pointing out there are places for posts like that.

The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But underthe name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialistprogram, until one day America will be a Socialist nation.

BABaracus wrote:Hi folks! So, I got up this morning and had a nice breakfast with the kids. Then we rode bikes to Noah's school. After that, I took Kaya to school and went back to Noah's school to help out in his classroom. Kaya and I then had a nice lunch and worked in the garden all afternoon. I did spend about a half hour on the computer, kinda boring, I know. Then we rode to school to get Noah and went to the playground and swim practice. After that, came home and had a great dinner with some great friends who just left. Kids are in bed and now I will enjoy some time with my wonderful husband. What a fantastic day! I love my days off! Have a good night all! Get out there and enjoy life!

Ya know, there are places you can post about your daily life. Like Twitter, or a blog. I don't think this has a whole lot of interest to the people who comment on articles here..

She is the mother of the family in the vegan article and has been commenting on the article for over a day.

I don't see anything about the article in her post. It's the kind of stuff I read on Facebook. Just pointing out there are places for posts like that.

Earlier posts accused her of being a stay at home mom who didn't have anything better to do. Other posts said her kids were unhealthy. She was posting to show her family's activities and what she did with a day off. (She is an NICU nurse.)

I would prefer to go to a mostly wild game and fish diet. Eat lots of elk, deer, wild boar, wild turkey, rabbit, chukar, and fish. That would be my first preference...but if you want to look like an anexoric and stay broke eating those high priced veggies during the winter... go for it. What? NO milk or cheese or butter? NO WAY! I would rather be dead than vegan.

JPS wrote:I am really getting tire of all these people who talk about animal cruelty because they read it in a book. These people really don't have a clue what the vast majority of livestock producers do for their animals. I grew up on a dairy farm. Everything revolved around the cows. They were fed and taken care of before we ate. At the time we were one of the larger dairies in the area. All the cows had a name and we knew each and everyone by their name, their habits and manor when milking them.

People who think that animal cruelty is theis the rule rather than the exception just don't get it. If you are cruel to the animals, they will not perform to their maximum and if they don't perform to their maximum you don't make money.

You can be a vegan or vegatarian, that's your choice. Don't try to justify it with claims that animal cruelty is widespread because it isn't. I know people who are vegans or vegatatarians and they always make comments about our lifestyles when we don't make comments about theirs.

I don't hear you saying anything about the male calves born every year to cows. Please tell us about the idyllic lives that they lead. Go into detail about how long the cows get to be with their calves. Tell us about the crate sizes that the male calves get to live in for a few months on a liquid diet which gives them perpetual diarrhea. Tell us about the life expectancy of the average milk cow. How long can she hold out producing 100 gallons of milk every day? Does she get to live 5 years before her weight breaks her calcium-leached bones? You are right. People just do not know how you treat your animals.

Your response shows your lack of knowledge with agriculture old enough. Agriculture is a business not some fantasy world. Do you work for a business?? I'm sure I can find issues with your job.

One, you talk about how long the calf is with the mother. Typically 12 to 24 hours. Why so short? It is a business and milk is the product. The calves are generally well taken care of.

You talk about the male calves and crates. Well that is veal and is a business that is dying out. Also, you unfortunately haven't kept up on the regulations. Those crates that everyone envisions with veal are long gone. Probably more than 20 years ago. you talk about the diarrhea they have. Leave a calf on a dairy cow and they will have diarrhea all the time as well. Why? They produce too much milk.

Most of the male calves are raised as beef animals. Look in the feedlots and you will see many holsteins in the yards or can you really tell what is what when you pass a feedlot.

You talk about a cow producing 100 gallons of milk per day. Really?? This shows your lack of knowledge to this issue. So you are telling me that a 1200 to 1400 lb cow can produce 800 lbs of milk. Look it up because you really don't know.

Calcium depleted bones??? This really shows your lack of knowledge. Never seen it and have never heard of it in a dairy. Why??? They feed a completely balanced ration. Cows will not produce milk if they are trying to take the calcium from their bones.

What about you and your life. How much do you impose on other people? More than you know. Do you drive a car? Well you are polluting the air I breath. Do you pee and poop and flush it down the toliet into the sewer??? Well you are polluting the water people downstream depend upon. How about electricity? Again you are polluting the air I breath.

You wish to push your elitist views on everyone. Well, if you wish that be prepared for other people to push their views on you even if you don't like it. This is the United States of America, not the old communist USSR. If you don't like things such as meat, vote with your pocket book and don't buy it. If enough people feel that way then agriculture will change to meet those needs.

First of all, I voted with my pocketbook over 20 years ago and stopped buying meat and milk. I stopped eating veal 20 years before that.

You have defended the bad treatment of your animals with the excuse that it is "business". Atrocities performed in the name of business are still atrocities.

The calf gets to spend ONE day with its mother - wow - that is compassionate of you.

You say that things have changed - then how do you explain the videos that are available now such as pictures of piles of dead calves by the side of the road waiting for pickup. They are the unwanted by-product of your "business". Or the videos of cows with broken legs being pushed into the slaughter house with a front end loader?

You didn't address the 5 to 7 year life span of a dairy cow. Cows can live 20 years if not forced to produce the huge amounts of milk they do. I didn't ask about it but what about the hormones fed to cows in order to produce those huge amounts? I love the new label on some milk cartons - "No Added Hormones". What does that mean - you didn't add hormones after the cow was milked?

Some activities are indefensible and your "business" is one of them.

If you dont like the agriculture business then dont buy milk or cheese or butter or eggs or meat. Dont buy leather. Fact is though that plant production couldnt possibly feed the population in this world or clothe it. You would see millions starve without agri business so if you dont like it and can afford to eat the plants...have at it. Just try to please stay out of the lives of other people.. It is unAmerican. We dont criticize your diet of plants so stay out of our chosen lifestyle.

JPS wrote:I am really getting tire of all these people who talk about animal cruelty because they read it in a book. These people really don't have a clue what the vast majority of livestock producers do for their animals. I grew up on a dairy farm. Everything revolved around the cows. They were fed and taken care of before we ate. At the time we were one of the larger dairies in the area. All the cows had a name and we knew each and everyone by their name, their habits and manor when milking them.

People who think that animal cruelty is theis the rule rather than the exception just don't get it. If you are cruel to the animals, they will not perform to their maximum and if they don't perform to their maximum you don't make money.

You can be a vegan or vegatarian, that's your choice. Don't try to justify it with claims that animal cruelty is widespread because it isn't. I know people who are vegans or vegatatarians and they always make comments about our lifestyles when we don't make comments about theirs.

I don't hear you saying anything about the male calves born every year to cows. Please tell us about the idyllic lives that they lead. Go into detail about how long the cows get to be with their calves. Tell us about the crate sizes that the male calves get to live in for a few months on a liquid diet which gives them perpetual diarrhea. Tell us about the life expectancy of the average milk cow. How long can she hold out producing 100 gallons of milk every day? Does she get to live 5 years before her weight breaks her calcium-leached bones? You are right. People just do not know how you treat your animals.

Your response shows your lack of knowledge with agriculture old enough. Agriculture is a business not some fantasy world. Do you work for a business?? I'm sure I can find issues with your job.

One, you talk about how long the calf is with the mother. Typically 12 to 24 hours. Why so short? It is a business and milk is the product. The calves are generally well taken care of.

You talk about the male calves and crates. Well that is veal and is a business that is dying out. Also, you unfortunately haven't kept up on the regulations. Those crates that everyone envisions with veal are long gone. Probably more than 20 years ago. you talk about the diarrhea they have. Leave a calf on a dairy cow and they will have diarrhea all the time as well. Why? They produce too much milk.

Most of the male calves are raised as beef animals. Look in the feedlots and you will see many holsteins in the yards or can you really tell what is what when you pass a feedlot.

You talk about a cow producing 100 gallons of milk per day. Really?? This shows your lack of knowledge to this issue. So you are telling me that a 1200 to 1400 lb cow can produce 800 lbs of milk. Look it up because you really don't know.

Calcium depleted bones??? This really shows your lack of knowledge. Never seen it and have never heard of it in a dairy. Why??? They feed a completely balanced ration. Cows will not produce milk if they are trying to take the calcium from their bones.

What about you and your life. How much do you impose on other people? More than you know. Do you drive a car? Well you are polluting the air I breath. Do you pee and poop and flush it down the toliet into the sewer??? Well you are polluting the water people downstream depend upon. How about electricity? Again you are polluting the air I breath.

You wish to push your elitist views on everyone. Well, if you wish that be prepared for other people to push their views on you even if you don't like it. This is the United States of America, not the old communist USSR. If you don't like things such as meat, vote with your pocket book and don't buy it. If enough people feel that way then agriculture will change to meet those needs.

First of all, I voted with my pocketbook over 20 years ago and stopped buying meat and milk. I stopped eating veal 20 years before that.

You have defended the bad treatment of your animals with the excuse that it is "business". Atrocities performed in the name of business are still atrocities.

The calf gets to spend ONE day with its mother - wow - that is compassionate of you.

You say that things have changed - then how do you explain the videos that are available now such as pictures of piles of dead calves by the side of the road waiting for pickup. They are the unwanted by-product of your "business". Or the videos of cows with broken legs being pushed into the slaughter house with a front end loader?

You didn't address the 5 to 7 year life span of a dairy cow. Cows can live 20 years if not forced to produce the huge amounts of milk they do. I didn't ask about it but what about the hormones fed to cows in order to produce those huge amounts? I love the new label on some milk cartons - "No Added Hormones". What does that mean - you didn't add hormones after the cow was milked?

Some activities are indefensible and your "business" is one of them.

Old Enough, you never answered the questions about your life that many could feel are an imposition on their lives.

So you are worried about animals, how about people? Do you never buy anything from China, Mexico or any third world country? If you do you are supporting slave shops of people. I have never imposed my will on others lives. Those are your choices unless they are illegal. I never tell anyone that my lifestyle is better and everyone should do what I do but you sure do. Have a nice day.

JPS wrote:I am really getting tire of all these people who talk about animal cruelty because they read it in a book. These people really don't have a clue what the vast majority of livestock producers do for their animals. I grew up on a dairy farm. Everything revolved around the cows. They were fed and taken care of before we ate. At the time we were one of the larger dairies in the area. All the cows had a name and we knew each and everyone by their name, their habits and manor when milking them.

People who think that animal cruelty is theis the rule rather than the exception just don't get it. If you are cruel to the animals, they will not perform to their maximum and if they don't perform to their maximum you don't make money.

You can be a vegan or vegatarian, that's your choice. Don't try to justify it with claims that animal cruelty is widespread because it isn't. I know people who are vegans or vegatatarians and they always make comments about our lifestyles when we don't make comments about theirs.

I don't hear you saying anything about the male calves born every year to cows. Please tell us about the idyllic lives that they lead. Go into detail about how long the cows get to be with their calves. Tell us about the crate sizes that the male calves get to live in for a few months on a liquid diet which gives them perpetual diarrhea. Tell us about the life expectancy of the average milk cow. How long can she hold out producing 100 gallons of milk every day? Does she get to live 5 years before her weight breaks her calcium-leached bones? You are right. People just do not know how you treat your animals.

Your response shows your lack of knowledge with agriculture old enough. Agriculture is a business not some fantasy world. Do you work for a business?? I'm sure I can find issues with your job.

One, you talk about how long the calf is with the mother. Typically 12 to 24 hours. Why so short? It is a business and milk is the product. The calves are generally well taken care of.

You talk about the male calves and crates. Well that is veal and is a business that is dying out. Also, you unfortunately haven't kept up on the regulations. Those crates that everyone envisions with veal are long gone. Probably more than 20 years ago. you talk about the diarrhea they have. Leave a calf on a dairy cow and they will have diarrhea all the time as well. Why? They produce too much milk.

Most of the male calves are raised as beef animals. Look in the feedlots and you will see many holsteins in the yards or can you really tell what is what when you pass a feedlot.

You talk about a cow producing 100 gallons of milk per day. Really?? This shows your lack of knowledge to this issue. So you are telling me that a 1200 to 1400 lb cow can produce 800 lbs of milk. Look it up because you really don't know.

Calcium depleted bones??? This really shows your lack of knowledge. Never seen it and have never heard of it in a dairy. Why??? They feed a completely balanced ration. Cows will not produce milk if they are trying to take the calcium from their bones.

What about you and your life. How much do you impose on other people? More than you know. Do you drive a car? Well you are polluting the air I breath. Do you pee and poop and flush it down the toliet into the sewer??? Well you are polluting the water people downstream depend upon. How about electricity? Again you are polluting the air I breath.

You wish to push your elitist views on everyone. Well, if you wish that be prepared for other people to push their views on you even if you don't like it. This is the United States of America, not the old communist USSR. If you don't like things such as meat, vote with your pocket book and don't buy it. If enough people feel that way then agriculture will change to meet those needs.

First of all, I voted with my pocketbook over 20 years ago and stopped buying meat and milk. I stopped eating veal 20 years before that.

You have defended the bad treatment of your animals with the excuse that it is "business". Atrocities performed in the name of business are still atrocities.

The calf gets to spend ONE day with its mother - wow - that is compassionate of you.

You say that things have changed - then how do you explain the videos that are available now such as pictures of piles of dead calves by the side of the road waiting for pickup. They are the unwanted by-product of your "business". Or the videos of cows with broken legs being pushed into the slaughter house with a front end loader?

You didn't address the 5 to 7 year life span of a dairy cow. Cows can live 20 years if not forced to produce the huge amounts of milk they do. I didn't ask about it but what about the hormones fed to cows in order to produce those huge amounts? I love the new label on some milk cartons - "No Added Hormones". What does that mean - you didn't add hormones after the cow was milked?

Some activities are indefensible and your "business" is one of them.

Old Enough, you never answered the questions about your life that many could feel are an imposition on their lives.

So you are worried about animals, how about people? Do you never buy anything from China, Mexico or any third world country? If you do you are supporting slave shops of people. I have never imposed my will on others lives. Those are your choices unless they are illegal. I never tell anyone that my lifestyle is better and everyone should do what I do but you sure do. Have a nice day.

JPS wrote:If you dont like the agriculture business then dont buy milk or cheese or butter or eggs or meat. Dont buy leather. Fact is though that plant production couldnt possibly feed the population in this world or clothe it. You would see millions starve without agri business so if you dont like it and can afford to eat the plants...have at it. Just try to please stay out of the lives of other people.. It is unAmerican. We dont criticize your diet of plants so stay out of our chosen lifestyle.

Vegans don't buy milk or cheese or butter or eggs or meat or leather... that's the whole point!

It is not true that plant production could not feed the population. You have to grow plants to feed those animals and those animals become less food then the plants they ate. It doesn't really matter though, people don't go hungry because of lack of food, they go hungry because of politics.

Really? Omnivores don't criticize our diet? There are several posts right here that prove otherwise. Vegans should definitely check their language and remove the accusations but we are not the only ones being judgmental.

Factory farming is horribly cruel. That is not a judgement, it is fact. What you choose to do with that information is up to you.

JPS wrote:If you dont like the agriculture business then dont buy milk or cheese or butter or eggs or meat. Dont buy leather. Fact is though that plant production couldnt possibly feed the population in this world or clothe it. You would see millions starve without agri business so if you dont like it and can afford to eat the plants...have at it. Just try to please stay out of the lives of other people.. It is unAmerican. We dont criticize your diet of plants so stay out of our chosen lifestyle.

Vegans don't buy milk or cheese or butter or eggs or meat or leather... that's the whole point!

I know and dont care!

It is not true that plant production could not feed the population. You have to grow plants to feed those animals and those animals become less food then the plants they ate.

Oh yes it is true. It takes a chicken only a few months to start producing eggs and produces over and over again for a long time. Same with Dairy cows. A hog is ready to get to the table in less than a year and provides food for good long time. Compare the food by pound... Buy a whole pig for about 250 bucks and you have a hundred pounds of meat and protein. Try buying a hundred bucks of that kind of food value from plants. Oh you can get a bale of alfalfa for about ten bucks....but not a good source of food in my mind. You do have to grow a few plants to feed those animals but most of those animals get their food source from a very cheap and reliable source in wild plants and grass. I know in parts of Texas beef animals eat prickly pear. You can raise a goad and get milk, cheese, and meat and feed costs are quite small. I know that one onion costs up to a dollar. A head of lettuce is a good buck fifty and it wouldnt go far for a food source. A person can eat plenty healthy and get a balance of meat and vegetables. I enjoy gardening so in summer I buy very few vegetables. Fact is that millions upon millions of acres of land in this country are not suitable for growing a crop but can absolutely support livestock production. Another millions upon millions of acres of the finest farmland in the world have been developed with houses, factories, and cemented over for roads. There is not enough land to support the kind of crop production needed to supply the needs of this nation much less the entire world if we were totally dependent on it.

It doesn't really matter though, people don't go hungry because of lack of food, they go hungry because of politics.

Yes... people do go hungry in part by politics. Communism and heavy handed dictatorships cause most of it. Other reasons are lack of education, motivation, and weather related reasons.

Really? Omnivores don't criticize our diet? There are several posts right here that prove otherwise. Vegans should definitely check their language and remove the accusations but we are not the only ones being judgmental.

Oh yes we critcize you but not because of what you eat or how you eat but because you people are to me like the evangelical movement to an atheist. Just leave us alone and we are all fine. We might poke a little fun at you but we will never try to get you to eat a ham sandwich.

Factory farming is horribly cruel. That is not a judgement, it is fact. What you choose to do with that information is up to you.

Factory farming can be cruel and some should be changed. I agree with that. Putting an arrow or a 180 grain bullet through the heart of a deer or an elk probably doesnt suit you idea of food harvesting either but that is your judgement call. You are right in what I choose to do with the information at hand is up to me.

Basically, I like any meat and will devour it will glee, uber glee! The only kind of meat I don't care for is 'man meat' and that should be obvious to all you fine readers as I am straight. Man meat should be avoided at all costs.

We really need to increase the meat consumption of our children. Anorexic children are bad for our military. We need to give them lots of meat and even meat bones for the protein and calcium. Meat bones for everyone!

noducks wrote:Please remember that if the end product is cheap then the raw materials were cheap. McPuke buys all of those old dairy cows, at the lowest price and turns it into McPuke burgers.

Well, very true. There is also the fact that those that engage in the SAD lifestyle are subsidized to a very large extent.

I think a lot of the vitriol aimed at veg*ns is because even by their mere existence, it forces omnivores to confront what they know is wrong...even if only fleetingly. And that cognitive dissonance causes anger.

There are many 'diets' that are very unhealthy, including carnivores, omnivores and vegans/vegetarians. Eating whole food, naturally raised without hormones, genetic modifications or chemicals is always going to healthier whether you're talking about meat, vegetables, grains, fruits, milk, eggs or any other food. I chose to stop eating meat mostly for my heart health. The saturated fats in meat (even though I ate very little) were causing cholesterol and plaque formations in my arteries. After a year of eating a whole food plant based diet I have no plaque remaining (what was there is gone) and my cholesterol numbers are tremendously improved. I do not eat processed 'vegan' foods to include soy products (nearly all are genetically modified). I do what I can to eat local, organic fresh fruits, vegetables, nuts and whole grains. What others choose to eat is their right. We're all built differently and require different macronutrients to be the healthiest. I just hate seeing unnecessary preventable diseases because of poor food and lifestyle choices. Our food industry as a whole could use a make over!

andrea.stephen wrote:There are many 'diets' that are very unhealthy, including carnivores, omnivores and vegans/vegetarians. Eating whole food, naturally raised without hormones, genetic modifications or chemicals is always going to healthier whether you're talking about meat, vegetables, grains, fruits, milk, eggs or any other food. I chose to stop eating meat mostly for my heart health. The saturated fats in meat (even though I ate very little) were causing cholesterol and plaque formations in my arteries. After a year of eating a whole food plant based diet I have no plaque remaining (what was there is gone) and my cholesterol numbers are tremendously improved. I do not eat processed 'vegan' foods to include soy products (nearly all are genetically modified). I do what I can to eat local, organic fresh fruits, vegetables, nuts and whole grains. What others choose to eat is their right. We're all built differently and require different macronutrients to be the healthiest. I just hate seeing unnecessary preventable diseases because of poor food and lifestyle choices. Our food industry as a whole could use a make over!

luigi123 wrote:There is a big problem with a vegan diet! They don't address all the processed stuff you eat, tofu, rice, bread. How bout Gluten? A big problem.

What makes you think rice is more processed then beef or chicken or pork? Gluten is a problem for people who are allergic to it, which is a small number of the population.

Gluten is a bigger problem than you think it, being allergic is one thing but a bigger amount of the population has a sensitivity to it that ranges from puking to bloating, to instestinal issues that is diagnosed as something else. if you go to mcDonalds or a fast food joint to get your meat yeah its process but if you buy free-range meat and eggs at a repitable organic super market minimal processing compared to tofu where you change the shape of it? Question, could you go find a rice plant, grain plant, soybeans and eat in the next 20min.

luigi123 wrote:There is a big problem with a vegan diet! They don't address all the processed stuff you eat, tofu, rice, bread. How bout Gluten? A big problem.

What makes you think rice is more processed then beef or chicken or pork? Gluten is a problem for people who are allergic to it, which is a small number of the population.

Gluten is a bigger problem than you think it, being allergic is one thing but a bigger amount of the population has a sensitivity to it that ranges from puking to bloating, to instestinal issues that is diagnosed as something else. if you go to mcDonalds or a fast food joint to get your meat yeah its process but if you buy free-range meat and eggs at a repitable organic super market minimal processing compared to tofu where you change the shape of it? Question, could you go find a rice plant, grain plant, soybeans and eat in the next 20min.

luigi123 wrote:if you go to mcDonalds or a fast food joint to get your meat yeah its process but if you buy free-range meat and eggs at a repitable organic super market minimal processing compared to tofu where you change the shape of it? Question, could you go find a rice plant, grain plant, soybeans and eat in the next 20min.

Question: when you see a live cow, do you have the natural instincts to sink your teeth into its belly and rip off its bloody tissue to chew and swallow raw? Is that something that makes you salivate? My guess is you would rather have it sterilized and processed by cooking and rendered unrecognizable, or in your words: change the shape of it. That's one reason they call it "beef" and not "cow".

Second, cheese is a highly processed product, much like tofu, and I would assume that you eat cheese. I'm not a big fan of tofu - it is more processed than I'd like to eat. However, it takes many steps to make cheese, the least of which is using rennet, which is usually a chunk of a calf's stomach to curdle the milk. You can't get cheese in the next 20 minutes, per your argument.