When you’re on the phone with Richard Lugar, the only wise decision is to sit back and listen.

So I listened the other day as Lugar talked about the monumental issues he has decided to focus on during his post-Senate years. Nearly five years have passed since he left the U.S. Senate, after six influential terms, but the Indiana Republican is as focused as ever on the kind of weighty topics you’d expect from him.

“We are working on world food security, arms control, as always, and our bipartisanship index,” he said of the work being done by the The Lugar Center, a D.C.-based policy outlet he created after losing in the GOP primary in 2012.

Yes, at the age of 85, those are the issues Lugar spends his days hoping to influence. He didn’t toss an easily achievable goal into the mix. It’s a reminder of the wisdom and seriousness he brought to his office for all those years; thank goodness he’s found a way to continue to play a role.

I’d reached out to talk about the third issue he mentioned – bipartisanship – after reading that he had signed a brief encouraging the U.S. Supreme Court to rule against Wisconsin lawmakers who have gerrymandered the state’s legislative districts. It’s a case that has many hoping that we will finally see a check on the abusive gerrymandering practices that have led to many one-sided districts and, as a result, so much partisan gridlock.

“It’s more and more the case that members are entirely dependent on the primary election, and perhaps because of that they are not as willing to be productive legislators,” he said. “They are not pushing monumental efforts to address big issues, and they are not building bipartisan coalitions.”

He didn’t say it, but I got the sense that Lugar, who tackled one major issue after another in the Senate, can’t fathom why a politician would not put being a productive lawmaker as the top goal for serving in Congress. It’s hard to be productive, he said, if you’re not willing to occasionally reach across the aisle.

“It is a difficult task,” he said of helping foster more bipartisanship in Congress. “That’s why we are offering incentives to encourage bipartisanship. If nobody is paying attention, nothing is likely to change.”

The Lugar Center has produced a series of Bipartisanship Index reports, grading congressional lawmakers on their ability to build coalitions and their willingness to sign onto bills authored by members of the other party. At a time when many members only hear grief for compromising or working with ideological rivals, the index encourages such behavior. (It’s fitting that Lugar’s eventual replacement, Democratic Sen. Joe Donnelly, was recently ranked by the index as the second-most bipartisan senator.)

“We have to get back to the Congress as a whole,” he said. “There need to be incentives for members to get together, because that creates the ability to address some major challenges in ways that are very meaningful to the American people. It’s just a time of stalemate in terms of the legislative picture, and there is a huge cost to that.”

Lugar is fighting heavy winds. In Washington, Democrats and Republicans are bitterly divided and already eyeing the next elections. Partisan media, he said, makes it easy for members to focus on only the far left or far right. More sophisticated technology has led to even more gerrymandered districts that are decided in partisan primaries, giving members little incentive to worry about moderate voters, or those from the other party.

Yet, Lugar said, members don’t have to look far for reasons to embrace at least a bit of bipartisanship. First, Senate rules mandate 60 votes in many cases, and rarely does one party occupy that many seats. Second, poll after poll has given Congress low approval ratings because of so much gridlock. So while the voices arguing for partisan purity are loud and powerful, a much wider group of Americans has made clear it wants to see action.

“The inability to muster (60) votes in the Senate is disastrous for our ability to address the major issues facing our country,” Lugar said. “It leads to the chaos that the public has condemned so clearly.”

Lugar has criticized President Donald Trump in the past but was encouraged by a recent deal between the president and congressional Democrats on disaster funding and a short-term debt limit extension. While some conservatives railed against the deal, Lugar put it sensibly: “I appreciate the fact that at least something was done.”

That was always a hallmark of Sen. Lugar’s tenure – a focus on getting things done and addressing critical issues. And while he’s no longer giving speeches on the Senate floor, he remains an example of what a leader should be.