Comments on the Logan Canyon CH2M HILL presentation

LOGAN CANYON PUBLIC MEETING
November 3, 1986
COMMENTS FOLLOWING CH2M HILL PRESENTATION:
With that information we are here to listen, so we would invite you
to make your comments. We are recording the meeting so we would
like you to identify who you are for our record. This is not a ­formal
hearing, we are here to get ·your input. We want to know
what your concerns are, what you see as the issues and we invite
you to start. You can address your comments to the consulting
team, the Highway Dept, so let's be brave and lead off.
Bryce Nielson: I was wondering what the original decision or
reason was to have three alternative routes come from the summit
down. What is the specific problems associated with the existing
route?
Stan: Well, as you know, there are several hairpin curves on that
alignment. We will be looking at that alignment, we are not dis­carding
it, but we are saying, Is there another way? There is some
unstable ground in that alignment that the Highway Dept. has had to
deal with over the years. And it is now being built up along this
portion of the road. We were just asked by the Highway Dept. to
look at the possibilities, to review the whole route. If therp is
not a better way, we'll find out, if there is, maybe it is worth
looking at· in more detail.
Price: I have a question for Commissioner Weston. What
kind of priority is the Highway Department assigning to this
project?
Todd Weston: Well, very low. I've got to answer that honestly.
The problem we are in with money right now, we can't separate funds
from the north part, south part, or Wasatch Front and with the
problems we've got on the Wasatch Front right now, funding for this
project is considerably down the road a ways. That is as honest an
answer as I can give you. It is not a high priority. If we had
all this decid.ed today, it wouldn't be the most high priority, Just
it is something we have to go through, irregardless. It is still a
long ways down the road.
I'm Brian Stringham and I've been travelling that road for a long
time, and that is a deplorable situation to have seven 18 foot
bridges on US highway. That's uncalled for. This is 1986.
That road was started back in the late 20's and finished up in
1932, and there has been little improvement on that road except for
the lower end that was improved 20 years ago. But, I travel that
road as much as anybody in this room for a lot of years and this
one of the biggest beefs I've got when I talk to anybody, that
lousy road that we have to travel on. So if we can do something
with those bridges, and I'm glad this summer that they finally put
in a few guard rails, but half of the places they put guard rails
in they didn't need them. Up the street here there is about 600
feet of guard rail that drops over 10 feet. A mile· above that
where you come around the curve where you need it and it drops 100 feet or 150 feet, there is no guard rail. Now why is that? I think
what has happened is that the contractor come up here and missed
the place where he was suppose to put it. Those are some of the
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gripes I've got. , We've got to change those bridges. I've drive a
big truck down there and I go down there and a woman was coming up
in a big car and she stopped in the middle of the bridge and I was
coming down at 40 miles an hour and she was just petrified, and
finally we worked it out so we got through, but I was afraid I was
going to push her off into the river. These 18 foot bridges have
got to be changed and we are not going to accept anything. less.
That's the main thing I'm unhappy with, those lousy bridges we've
got.
I'm Alan Harrison, Director of Bear Lake Regional Commission. Ken
Brown, County Commission Chairman of Rich County asked me to read a
statement.
"Having watched traffic increase for the past ten years, I
feel the canyon road should definitely be improved. Minimum
improvement should include three lane passing such as in the
lower canyon. Tourist flow to and from Bear Lake is important
to our economy and Logan Canyon is a problem. Safety is a
real COllcern, and anyone who travels the road regularly w')uld
agree that it is becoming more and more cumbersome and time
consuming. I feel no more studies are necessary and we should
commence with construction.
Stan: Would you please give us a copy of that?
Alan Harrison: Yes sir.
Paul Webb: I understand that this study has been in progress since
June of this year. One question is how much longer is the study
going to continue and the other question is, if this is a low pri­ority
on the UDOT budget, what is the time frame for any kind of
improvements rather it be the status quo approach or the whole ball
of wax?
Stan: We will be completing our work in June of next year. We
were given a year to do the study, and we are about halfway through
with our efforts right now. As far as the priority listing, there
is a number of funding programs that the state has access to
things such as the bridge replacement, maybe, could be a different
priority than improving the whole road. I'll let the UDOT answer
that more fully.
UDOT: If we 10 any work at all in the canyon, it will have to ~e
documented quite well from an environmental approach, that is to
justify the expenditure of fedelal funds on this project, and that
it will not harm the environment. One purpose of this study is to
identify various ways in which projects may be staged in the
canyon. It is our opinion that the structures are an important
issue and should be addressed as soon as possible. But even if we
had the money right now to replace the structures, we couldn't do it until we complete the environmental study that is underway now.
So the first step in this process is to evaluate the alternatives
and to also evaluate them on an environmental basis to justify the
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expenditure of funds, and then funds could be awarded. Portions of
this project will go sooner 'than other parts. But if we are going
to do any work at all we must complete this long process.
Question: Who has the final say, the UDOT or the environmentalists?
UDOT: Both. What we are doing through this environmental study is
coming to a mutual understanding as to what we can realistically do
in the canyon.
Question: Okay my other question is, environmentally, which is
more important, to lose a life, even if an ambulance has to go
through any kind of weather through this canyon, which is more
important saving the environment or saving a life?
Lynn Zollinger: Those questions are hard to answer. (There was an
uproar in the crowd). Let me say what we intend to do is to design
a facility that will be the best facility we can build within the
constraints we are given. And it is not going to be a super route
or 60 mph
Comment: I'll bet if you ask any person in this room which is more
important they would say it is a person's life.
Question: I'm a citizen here in town. Didn't you have funds
approved for the entire Logan Canyon before the environmentalists
shot it down? Isn't that why the improvements were shut down
before?
Lynn Zollinger: There was a construction scheduled to begin at
Right Fork and continue to Ricks Spring. That was following
closely on the heels of the one completed on up to Right Hand Fork.
In the early seventies is when that was slated to go to construc­tion
and the funds werp. completed and I believe we were almost
ryady to advertise. Then the environmental issues surfaced and the
momentum at that time was stopped to this date.
Comment: I can't believe with all the rocks and trees we've got
around here there is anything so particular in that canyon.
Lynn Zollinger: There is, believe me. . There are very many issues
that are sensitive from an environmental standpoint.
Question: How many lawsuits do we have to file to get this sub­standard
road improved?
Lynn Zollinger: I can't answer that.
Question: What has happened to all those funds that they have from
the 5% tax in the whole U.S., there was supposed to be 60 million
dollars in the State of Utah to take care of substandard roads,
such as bridges. This was going to make employment, upgrade the
roads in the secondary and third grade roads in the whole U.S. and
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each state was going to get their share. I don't think we even got
any of the pie back, did we?
Commissioner Weston:· I thought I was in a friendly area here. I
think in all fairness, and I know your concerns, I travel that road
quite often myself, and I know that there are some things that
ought to be done, and I don't think there is anybody that doesn't
agree with that. How far to go is the problem. We know that we
have to replace some bridges. We've got some bridges up there that
are too narrow and besides that they are structurally unsound, so
that if we don't do something pretty quick, we may have to do some­thing
more drastic. As far as why we have to do these studies, I
think I have the same position you have. I was County Commissioner
in Cache County for several years, and we went through several
exercises trying to make improvements up the canyon and we never
could satisfy enough people on what we needed to do and to get
enough unity in what to do in order to have the federal government
release funds. Now, that is a pure and honest statement. We have
some bridge replacement right now. These funds rollover and each
year and what funds aren't used rollover to another year. The
priority for our funds in Logan Canyon may be better next year than
this year, we don't know. We know that highway funds are badly
depleted right now. We are at least 40 million dollars behind our
funding of state highways right now. We actually got far enough
along in the last year- to program points for Logan Canyon on three
bridges, two of them are close to being funded, and we decided that
we needed to go through the necessary requirements to get the federal dollars. Remember that 95% of the money that would be
spent on this canyon is coming out of Washington. I appreciate
that it is your money, but it still has to be released by the
Federal Highway Dept. and when we requested to move ahead with
just the bridges we were told there would be no money given to us
by Federal Highways until a complete and indepth environmental
study for the whole canyon was complete. So, that's why these
people are hired. I sat on the commission over there and we had
$500,000 allocated one year to go from Right Hand Fork to Ricks
Spring, which would have in those days, built the thing. But we
couldn't move. We didn't have our homework done. Of course, I
wasn't in the highways then, but I was on the county commission and
I sat in the position you are in - frustration wondering why can't
we go. Well, it is even more complicated now than it was then.
We've got a terrible shortage of money for highways. We've got
some terrible problems. This isn't the only bad stretch of highway
we have in Utah. I've been over a lot of it in the last year and I
want to tell you this is not the worse stretch of road. It is
maybe, from your standpoint because you have to travel it, but if
you go from across the state you'll find many roads in pretty bad
shape. We are doing the best we can with the money we have. As
soon as the environmental study is complete, then we will go back
to the federal government and say, "Here's our plans, here is what
we can justify from a reasonable standpoint, here is what the
people think we need, and here is what we can do with the dollars
we've got, and not impact the canyon to the point that we are
foolish, and yet build a road that we need and will supply our
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needs to the year 2010 and if we can hit that happy medium, then
we'll get approval. Of course, we've got to work with the Fo~est
Service. They own the land. You people need to understand that.
Comment: They work for the people.
Todd Weston: Yes, but they administrate it.
Dave Baumgarner: Forest Service doesn't own the land it is public
land.
Todd Weston: You people own the land, but the forest service
administrates it. And we are going to build improvements to that
highway. When I say "improvements" I sometimes get a gun pointed
at my throat. Some people consider that anything we do up there is
not improving. You need to know we have a lot of people that feel
that way. I'm not saying that they are right, or that you are
right. I know that somewhere in the middle we are going to find
some mutual ground that we can satisfy our needs with and that is
what we are trying to do. There are some places up in that canyon
that I don't want to see destroyed and I've got the same concerns
you have, but we are going to do the best job we can. We've got
make sure that it meets with their plans in their management
process for the canyon. Dave Baumgarner is charge with his office
to see that anything that is done in that canyon is the proper
thing to do for what the people need and want.
Question: I enjoy driving through the canyon as much as anybody
else does at anytime of the year. I really enjoy it. I don't
think anybody in this room would like to see the beauty of that
canyon destroyed. It would be ludicrous on our part to assume
that. It is a great calling card for us to bring people over here.
However, when you drive through it and you realize how bad the road
is and the fact that a lot of improvements can be made, then when
you've got to go through all these agencies you are talking about
and all the red tape and bureaucracy you are talking about, I don't
see why these entities, public and environmental, forest service,
can not sit down and give a little bit so that this road can be
improved whereby the flow of traffic will be safer for all
concerned going both ways. Now, the last two years there have been
a great flow of traffic through the canyon. The truck traffic flow
has increased considerable from Millers over there. And that is
fine, we'd like to see them come over here, but when you get in
certain places in that road, those trucks take up 3/4s of the high­way
and that leaves you with very little. As far as arguing about
the road, we need the road and we deserve the road. And we need to
have all these entities sit down and say, "Alright, these are the
problems, but let's get on with the program. Let's find out what
has to be done, let's take and give a little.
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Sheldon: I appreciate all your concerns, they are great. We­
talked earlier about the length of our study. I think it might be
appropriate to answer why it takes a year to do the study. We are
trying to do the study correctly. If you read your newspaper you
can see what happened in Provo Canyon. I'm not saying that will
happen here, but, by gosh, we are going to do everything we can to
keep that from happening. But there are some lawsuits in Provo
that have been filed against UDOT and we do want to make sure that
we take time to get everything documented well enough, so that when
our recommendations are accepted, or UDOT makes the recommendation
and they and the Forest Service agree, we've got the proper frame­work
to support any potential lawsuit that might come down. That
takes time and I apologize for that.
Question: I have a question for Mr. Baumgarner. I think everybody
has preconceived notions about this entity out there called an
environmentalist, that they are instantly going to battle with the
residents over here. Since you are with the Forest Service and you
are going to represent the federal government's interest and proba-.
bly a lot of the biological and ecological interest in the can~on,
I'm interested in your comments as to do you really think the envi~
ronmentalists and the citizens are that far apart?
Dave Baumgarner: No, they are not. I don't have an answer any
different than that. There are some legitimate concerns on both
sides. But other than argue about statistical data that justifies,
or unjustifies the project, when it comes right down to it, the
issues aren't really that strong. Almost down to the point of talk­ing
about a specific corner as to whether or not for a fishery or
an environmental issue, there aren't very many serious issues about
bridges. If we had this to do all over again, to be quite frank,
and the state had the money to build bridges without having to go
to the federal government for funds, we would categorically exclude
bridges. What that means in our process is that with a half page
decision signed by my boss, the project would not have to go
through the entire environmental process on the specific bridge
replacement. In talking about individual corners, we are almost in
the same box, but not quite, depending on the issue on the specific
corner. From the Forest Service perspective, we are a lot closer
than people realize. However, there are some processes involved
that are giving us some troubl~, timewise.
Stan: Sheldon : why don't you identify where we go from here with
the public involvement process.
Sheldon: This meeting was really only intended as a public infor­mation
meeting. Certainly to solicit your comment, but this is
just the first of several opportunities that will come up over this
whole period of this study for people to have input. This is an
information meeting; we are just getting started. As we get into
the environmental assessment we will have what we call a Scoping
Meeting where we identify issues. We'll go from there with public
hearings and you will have plenty of opportunity to speak up and
frankly, I think it is great, and please keep doing it.
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Bill Peterson: I am questioning your statistics on your growth
rate. We've been in a down trend in our economy in this area, but
in the last year there have been a number of major projects express
interest in building motels and hotels here and 'I think that your
2% growth rate is going to be way short of the actual growth rate
of the traffic on the highway. I think we will get that 2% just
from our locals. If there is any other increase, it will go way
over that.
Stan: We share that concern. Cliff Forsgren did that study for us
and it was reviewed very carefully by UDOT and by the interdisci­plinary
team we work with on a fairly regular basis. Cliff, why
don't you cover the background on that.
Cliff: The approach to putting together projections requires a
great deal of knowledge, experience and skill, and computers and
everything else and when you are done? Frankly, we look at it from
a couple of different perspectives. We look at it from what has
occurred over the past 10 or 12 years as long as we have the cata
from a counter station. We also took the State of Utah's projec­tion
for economic growth in northern Utah and we came up with
numbers that were very close to the same. From the standpoint of
those of us that were preparing this projections, 2% is a bit
uncomfortable. But based on the information we had, it was diffi­cult
to come up with anything higher. Believe me, I tried. Look­ing
at the average daily flow in the summer in one year you may
have a significant increase from one year to the next, but the next
year then it will drop off some, and it averages out. If someone
could give us some data or some information that would show that it
needs to be higher, but based on what we have got, that's all we
could justify.
Ted Wilson: Doesn't I-I5 plan to finished off further past
Tremonton?
UDOT: That is correct.
Ted Wilson: Are they planning to improve the Valley View highway
into Logan?
UDOT: We haven't got any engineering done on Valley View. It is
on our hope list.
Ted Wilson: At present, I'm sure everybody would agree that the
canyon is beautiful, but we would also becoming a deterrent to
traffic coming this way. An improved highway may bring as many as
10% higher flow rate almost immediately. People are getting scared
of Logan Canyon. It is getting bad. The shoulders are horrible.
They washed out really bad this last year. People don't like to
travel it once they have seen it. If they want to get some place,
they are starting to go around. Other communities are advertising
to draw the traffic away from Logan to Soda Springs, to Randolph,
that type of thing. As for looking to the past, we have had a
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falling off of percentage and that 2% may look that way, but if you
have an improved highway, business wise and traffic flow wise, I
think you'll see a tremendous higher use, and especially if 1-15 is
finished and good access to Logan, to Tremonton. We still are the
major route to Jackson Hole and Yellowstone areas, but Logan Canyon
is a mess.
Question: I have a couple of questions for Mr. Weston. First, how
much do you project it will cost to fix the existing substandard
bridges and how much did it cost to hire CH2M Hill?
Weston: I'll turn those questions over to the engineers; they've
got the exact figures.
Lynn Zollinger: The cost to build a structure cost about $45.00
per square foot. The new bridges I expect will be 40' wide, give
or take a few feet, and the length is about 150'. That is a
preliminary guess, so whatever 40 times 45 times 150 would be the
structure cost.
Question: How many substandard bridges?
Todd Weston: Seven.
Lynn Zollinger: Some are longer than others, like at Tony Grove
where they are relatively short span, but others sucn as Lower Twin
Bridge and Burnt Bridge and Red Bank Bridge that are considerably
larger. So the way I look at it, there are four major structures
and at least three minor structures.
Question: What about hiring a construction firm for a year?
Lynn Zollinger: The fee for hiring the consultants is around
$500,000. It is a very expeasive study. I think it shows the
UDOT's commitment to solve the problems at Logan Canyon.
Kathy Webb: If you have two other options here you are thinking
about for alternate routes through the canyon, how realistic is it
that you are going to do something with the existing canyon? Are
you planning on doing any funding anyway?
Stan: Yes, that's all part of the study.
Kathy Webb: And the other two options are...
Stan: The other two options are only from the summit to Garden
City, so they don't really impact the canyon at all.
Kathy Webb: The other question I have is I have to know what the
logic is behind the passing lane at Ricks Springs. I just have to
know that. That is the craziest passing lane I have ever been on!
Is that what it is? (Lots of laughter)
Lynn, do you want to handle that?
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Lynn: There was a passing lane built at Ricks Springs. That was
done as a desperation move. There is no other term for it, by the
UDOT to provide some improvement in the canyon. (more laughter).
In a lot of ways we had our hands tied as to spending money to make
improvements in Logan Canyon. One group says improve it, do this,
do that, and the other group says you can't do anything without the
appropriate studies. And I guess the best way to look at ·the pass­ing
lane is that while it did offer some relief and some improve­ment
for that section, is that we wanted to make an improvement and
go out and do something.
Question: You mentioned here tonight that there will be other
meetings. Where are they going to be?
Stan: We will have another Scoping Meeting when we get very
specific about what are the alternatives we are going to be looking
at. There will be one of those held in Logan and one held here in
this valley.
Question: Another question I have is how much weight does this
meeting we are having here hold? Is Logan going to be able to
override us again?
Stan: I don't know if that is a fair assessment. There are a lot
of people in Logan that feel the same as you do. But they are
unfortunately, the silent majority. So we are going to make these
studies and identify some alternatives and there will be reports
produced that will show what the benefits and non-benefits of each
alternative are. The final result of this will be the recommended
alternative, but the agencies will select, those being the UDOT and
the Forest Service. They will select the recommended alternative
and a hearing will be held that will discuss that.
Paul Webb: I think it was commissioner Weston that mentioned that
our project was a low priority project. I assume he was talking
about expenditure of money. I would like to know whose list we are
on. Is that the UDOT's priority list and how will this study
affect that priority?
Todd Weston: Paul, I guess I've got to say that everybody is on a
low priority until we get more money. We just have some many
projects ahead of us that we are just putting out fires, is what we
are doing. We know that if we don't do something on 1-15 within the
next three years, we are going to have a big parking lot between
Brigham City and Salt Lake, and I'm talking about that literally.
And we are talking about a major part of the population living in
that part of the state. We have to put things in the perspective.
I think our preconstruction engineer put it as well as I can. We
are going to do what we can. See, there are different funds; there
are bridge funds that are ready to go. We had some that were ready
to go, but we were stopped by Federal Highways to do any bridgework
until we completed this exercise we are going through now. Had
Dave Baumgarner and I been able to sit down together as the Forest
15
Service and UDOT we probably could have built those bridges and had
Federal Highway release the dollars, and they probably will now.
But in defense of the environmental study with CH2M Hill, why we
are hiring these people, is that we are hiring to gain some time.
We simply do not have staff to put them on this project and do it
in the time frame we are trying to do and get on with the construc­tion.
They are hired to do the job we didn't have staff to do it
in the time frame we need.
Question: I remember going to a meeting several years ago with the
UDOT and talking about a problem we had in Laketown Canyon. That
priority was very low, and then suddenly it jumped up to where it
was partially completed. You mentioned that 95% of the funds can't
be approved until this study is done. If this study is done to
their satisfaction and application is made and they approve 95%
funding, what chance do we have to have that priority jump?
Todd Weston: Of course, after that is done we have to go to pre­construction
plans. You know, we could start on some bridges
rather rapidly. But you see, when you start on some bridges, well,
take the bridge at the bottom of the dugway, a tall bridge, an
expensive structure, needs to be widened. Now, when you widen it,
do you just widen the bridge, or do you go down stream a ways and
take that big sharp curve off from it and make a decent curve at
the bottom of it? One thing leads to another to where you start
impacting further down the road. So we've got to do it in an
orderly fashion, and frankly, I'm glad we are doing it this way
because once and for all, we will have a document in our hands that
says, "This is what we can reasonably do to improve the canyon."
Now, well you say the environmentalists stopped the other projects.
Well, maybe yes, and maybe no, maybe we didn't have our homework
done. We just got two lawsuits slapped on us on Provo Canyon,
which is a similar project, with more traffic and more people, but
similar. We got slapped with two lawsuits, and neither one of them
are environmentalists, typical qualified environmentalist groups
like the Sierra Club, and others. They were not recognized as
environmentalists groups. The person who stopped us was an eco­nomics
professor at BYU. He is the one that filed the suit. I
don't know if he has any other money behind him or not, but he is
the one who stopped us. And he stopped us because he said they
didn't need the type or road we were putting through that canyon.
Pure and simple. And the judge decided he had better hear more
about it and so there is an injunction on it. That is the kind of
problem we run into.
Comment: I appreciate all that you have to go through, but I still
wonder if that low priority is all we are going to get.
Todd Weston: Well, I guess we are a little bit like a squeaky
wheel. If the demand is there strong enough and we can justify it
then we are going to move faster where we can. But when I say
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Logan Canyon has low priority, I've got to say it has low priority
compared to I-15, it has low priority compared to probably a dozen
other projects in District 1 and we are only one District in the
state.
Don Huffener: You mentioned the squeaky wheel. I was at the meet­ing
you had in Logan, too and you mentioned it again here, that in
the summertime is the big volume of traffic and 80% of that traffic
is through traffic all the way through the canyon. Most of those
people never get heard because they are not from Logan or here, so
Todd Weston: I think we have some better figures than that.
Don Huffener: Well, I stopped down at Valley Engineering and
picked it up.
Todd Weston to CH2M Hill: Is that your statement?
Sheldon: The people who start through the canyon, 80% go all the
way through the canyon rather th~n stop in the canyon to recreate.
Don Huffener: So the majority of the people who use the canyon
aren't getting a hearing on this. The other thing is at the other
meeting your spokesperson said that the ID committee was unanimous
in their desire to keep Logan Canyon as a destination. Your
spokeswoman said that. I'm sure I am right. So, the pass through
traffic, how much consideration are they getting? That was a
statement from your office.
Stan Nuffer: I think she might have been misunderstood.
Comment: She was implying that they want to make Logan Canyon a
destination and recreational area, where people come into the
canyon, recreate and then go home.
Cliff: That is the desire of many people to make it that way. I
guess the way to answer that is that you really have two views, and
I don't see anything that is going to keep both of these from being
answered.
John Murphy: When I first came to the valley about 15 years ago I
was looking for a place to buy some supplies and I soon found
another route to Ogden and on through. Going on a dirt road in the
south end of the valley down there, which is called
Canyon, which is 500 feet lower than your Logan Pass; it doesn't
have any environmental problems, there is no river to fight, you
can go down into Ogden and it is 15 minutes longer than using your
superhighway through Logan Canyon. So if the people in Logan are
so upset about the environmental impact of us people who live and
drive the canyon, rather than those that stop and turn around and
go home, why don't they build us a road into Ogden? We could get
to Ogden in the same time it takes to get to Logan. Re-route
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Highway 89 up through Cottonwood, up through the flats up there, no
river, basic road is facing south, so the sun does most of the
clearing for you rather than snow plowing; it goes to the area of
Monte Cristo, we can go on down there and get our supplies, route
the tourists through there, and Logan can have their canyon and go
up there and recreate and turn around and go home. (Applause)
My name is Ernest Henry, with the Bridgerland Audobon Society in
Logan, and I would like to second what was mentioned earlier.
Environmental groups aren't out to stop everything and anything,
but we do have distinct and definite concerns about Logan Canyon.
That is why I am here tonight. There is nothing I'd rather be
doing that be home tonight, but I'm here because I'm very concerned
about the quality of the environment in Logan Canyon. So, we will
work with you, and compromise, but I do have one concern. Some­thing
that has been repeatedly stated and stated here tonight and
often times stated in the paper and that is that a big impediment
to your economic development and the economic development of Bear
Lake is the Logan Canyon road, that if it was somehow improved, the
economy would be better. That may be true, I don't know, but one
thing I have yet to see is any facts on that.
Comment: MOVE OVER HERE. Try driving the canyon twice a week and
you would change your mind.
UDOT: I'd like to make a comment on the alternate route. We have
looked at it and an alternate route would cost about 1.2 to 2
million per mile. We don't have that kind of money right now. We
do feel that two decades from now that will be a realistic alterna­tive
to look at. Right now the money we have available is to
improve the facility we have built. I hope you are right about the
environmental situation. When we get there I'm afraid there might
be more problems that we anticipate, but alternate routes have been
looked at but at this time we don't feel the availability of funds
makes it a viable alternate. We need to be upgrading what we have
here.
Comment: Just one comment about alternate routes. Someone must be
sniffing glue if they tried an alternate route through Hodges
Canyon. It is almost impossible to get through. You would never
see a snow plow out. So the studies you are doing on alternate
routes are not very well done. The other route that original
pioneers used which is pretty close to your yellow route is a much
better route. Now, I talked to some of the old timers who worked on
the route that we've got now and they said those crazy guys from
Salt Lake City don't know how to build a road, but since they are
paying us, we'll build it anyhow. The yellow route does look like
it is a better route.
UDOT: The yellow route is the principal route at this point, but
we did indicate to the consultant that we wanted to look at some
alternatives. We they took some geotechnical data and they have
indicated that the green route is not desirable, but that the
yellow one is, again we are going to have to look at that when it
comes time to getting the property and alignment, which will be in
the latter stages of the whole study. But we will probably be
working with the county people and if we can establish that that is
a desirable route, and the local people are in agreement, then we
will work with the county commission in reserving the rights of way
so we don't have to come in unprepared. But that is the principal
route at this time.
CH2M Hill: We share your conclusions about the green route.
Comment: Do you? I saw what you were doing and I couldn't believe
my eyes.
Comment: I was wondering, the lower part of the canyon that has
been improved, was there any data before so that you can compare
the impact that it has had on the lower route so you might have
some information to apply to the higher route? Is that being
considered?
Stan: We have looked at all the data we can get. Unfortunately,
the safety data, the basis has changed, so it is kind of hard to
draw conclusions. We just have to go along with what is nationally
accepted approaches to these kinds of problems.
Barry Negus: One concern I have is if you change to an alternate
route on the lower portion here, what are the people going to do?
What is going to happen to the existing road there now and what is
going to have to be done for the people that are living along that
route to get out in the winter?
Lynn Zollinger: If we realign the highway to another locations, it
doesn't mean the other one will be clos~d, we'd probably say we
would turn it over to Rich County to maintain and plow.
Comment: Don't do that. (laughter)
Lynn Zollinger: The UDOT is not likely to maintain two routes. The
disposition of the old route would have to be resolved.
Comment: I would like to ask the gentleman from the Audobon
Society if he is a native of the area, is hea student at the
college, do you live in Logan as a temporary position the, what
is your impact personally on improvements in the canyon or is this
just an assignment you have from the college or Audobon Society?
Ernest Henry: No, I was born in Cincinnati, Ohio; my parents moved
to Albuquerque in 1969. I got a bachelors degree from Colorado
State in Wildlife Biology in 1979. I loved to Logan to attend
graduate school and I have a masters degree in Range Science there
and I now work with the USDA in the agricultural research service
doing research in alfalfa growth and I am a member of the Audobon
Society because it is something I believe in and am interested in it
So, anyway, I live and work in Logan right now and I intend to stay
there for the foreseeable future.
19
Comment: What do you think about the problems on the road?
Ernest Henry: I think there are two major environmental problems I
see with road construction. One is the river itself, water qual­ity,
quantity, diverting it, changing it from something that is
rather free flowing with biological integrity to something that is
riprapped and has little biological integrity, and also I think the
scenic value of the canyon is important. If your only interest is
in economic development, I don't think you can deny that something
that is going to bring people to this area is the scenic quality of
Logan Canyon. It is an important aspect to this area. It is a
recreational resource, granted more in Logan's favor than in Bear
Lake's favor. But it is a recreational resource of significance
and that shouldn't be overlooked.
Comment: I'm just glad to know a transplant from the Sierra Club
in Oklahoma.
Comment: I don't think it matters where we are from, but I think
the thing that this gentleman is stating and what the residents
from this side of the hill are willing to work with them. We don't
want to change the whole canyon. We think there are improvements
that can and should be made and as a community we all feel that
way.
Comment: We all love the canyon. We do. We want it preserved.
We don't want it spoiled.
Comment: And I think we are all saying the same thing allover
again. We want quality, but we also want some improvements and I
think it is possible to work with them if we can just get on with
it. Let's work together and get it done.
Richard Mills: Have you as the state studied the other road coming
in from Salt Lake and Evanston in the summer as far as road
counters?
Stan Nuffer: Are you talking about the existing highway or those
proposed?
Richard Mills: The existing highway. You have a traffic study,
right? You have two counters one going north and one coming into
Garden City. Have they done anything coming in from Evanston up
over Laketown Canyon?
Stan Nuffer: We are somewhat familiar with the state procedures.
They have permanent traffic counters all over the state.
UDOT: We no longer have a permanent counter in Laketown Canyon,
but they do annual studies. Sometimes they vary from a week or a
day. But because of lesser volumes they don't go to the expense of
a full time permanent counter there, but they use statistic projec­tion
methods to get a short count and project it. to a longer count.
20
Stan Nuffer: They have a guide that is called "Traffic on Utah
Highways" that is published biannually that lists all this traffic
information and I'm sure you could get a copy of that.
Richard Mills: My point is if you would study that information you
would probably find out that as people get more scared of Logan
Canyon, they are probably coming around the other way. A good
share of the people that come in are from Salt Lake and Ogden.
Stan Nuffer: I don't know if you can draw that kind of conclusion
from the data that is there, but it could be looked at.
Joe West: I'm wondering how bad the lower end of the canyon looks
now. I remember when that was rebuilt; realigned and they were
fighting on that, and that was what stopped them from going on up
into the canyon. I'd be interested in knowing how that looks 'now
that the growth is back up. I can see that when construction goes
on you are going to have a problem for a year or two, but growth
comes back. I heard one man say that that was the first time he
went down Logan Canyon and saw anything but the yellow line. You
know, before the rest of this canyon gets built, the lower end of
the canyon is going to be obsolete.
stan: We hope to get at least the same standard throughout the
whole canyon. Beyond that, if traffic continues to increase, there
might need to be alternate routes looked at to take some of the
pressure.
Joe West: I'd like to ask the Audobon Society how the lower end of
the canyon looks to him.
Ernest Henry: My general reaction is that it doesn't look that
bad. Nevertheless, I don't think you can just say, "Okay, there it
worked." We don't want to take any chances. I guarantee you that.
We are not out just to slow things up but we want it to stay a
recreational resource second to none. I'd like to make another
comment and this is strictly factual. As I mentioned I lived in
Colorado for a while and if you think this battle over a road was
something, Glenwood was an awesome battle. That was on interstate
70 that went on for years and years and years. And they finally
worked something out. I think Ch2M Hill would do well to look at
some of the approaches that were used there.
Stan Nuffer: We were involved in that process.
Jim Naegle: Two months ago we visited Glenwood Canyon, and we
built the Interstate 15 through the River by St. George at
$1,000,000 per mile and we thought that was a great cost for build­ing
a road. The 12 miles of Glenwood Canyon now cost 14 million to
put a bike path through, and 235 million dollars to build the road
and it is because of tradeoffs with the envizonmental organiza­tions.
I want to add just this. That UDOT is more environmentally
sensitive than we have ever been as a Highway Department; some of
21
it from need and some of it from desire. The lower part of the
canyon wasn't as environmentally sensitive as the middle portion of
the canyon. We are intent on building a facility that will accom­modate
as much as possible. We are willing to make tradeoffs. We
are looking for tradeoffs with the environmental people, the forest
service and the Highway Dept. We want to get in and build the best
highway with the least amount of impact that can be done. And we
will be keeping you people appraised as to our progress on that,
but we need your input and your support as to how you feel and that
is why we appreciate your 'coming tonight. It is our intent to
build something that will serve us as best as possible and to mini­mize
the impacts. That's the tradeoffs we are looking for.
Cliff: Maybe as a summary comment, we can still have more ques­tions,
but I would carry it a step further than what Jim said.
Other than the time that it takes to complete the study, which I
would agree with is intolerable from your perspective, but other
than. the time I'm not pessimistic as to how this will turn out. In
fact I'm rather optimistic as Dave Baumgarner and others have
stated that we are going to be able to find some common ground that
satisfies the environmental needs and still gives you a good road
through the canyon that you all deserve. So, I wouldn't be pes­simistic
about it, but I would be careful to take the time to make
your presence known, even if it takes going to Logan to do it. We
need toe input and we need a balanced input.
Comment: I'm been on a committee representing this area for a num­ber
of years when we first started these studies, and I know when
we got the information on this study we requested you come here and
we do appreciate your coming here because it is cumbersome to
travel that road in the wintertime. We want you to know we do
appreciate your coming here and we hope you appreciate the impact
the canyon has on the people on this side of the mountain. There
are a lot of people from Bear Lake County . that have some concerns.
We . would strongly encourage you to continue to hold some meetings
over here and not to look at sheer numbers, but you are talking
about real users and real business people, not an organized group
by any means like you might find in Logan, because I listened to
them and I've seen their tables etc. but please continue to come
over here and keep us informed. I would suggest you may even
explore the idea of holding a meeting in Salt Lake City, because
that affects a lot of those people Don Huffener was talking about
that travel through here constantly and a majority of those people
are in the Wasatch Front.
CH2M Hill: We spoke with them today and they let it be known that
they expect to see us.
Comment: Good. Also you might consider that the next time you
have a meeting in here if you hold it on a summer night and a
Friday night you'll get some of those same types of people and
you'll get a good cross section.
Stan Nuffer: That is a good idea, thank you.
22
I'm Cliff Brown and I'm a member of the town council in Laketown
and I just think that the beauty of the canyon is out of this world
at time, nobody disagrees with that. I'm also an EMT and I've
driven the ambulance through there through all kinds of weather. I
think we need to keep in mind that that road is our lifeline to the
outside world. We are up here isolate otherwise. There are a
couple of other places we can travel, but this is our main
lifeline, between here and Logan and I think that is what we need
to keep in mind.
Question: Are there any preliminary plans as far as re-routing the
existing road in places? Do you have any plans there at all?
Stan Nuffer: We are just getting started in that process. We want
to get your input first and then we will get into that process.
Comment: As you drive through the canyon, in reference to the gen­tleman's
comments about riprapping the river, as I drive through
the canyon I see very few places where th0se kinds of places are
going to exist and where the road possibly could be moved com­pletely
away from the river and actually add to the quality of the
river instead of pushing the snow (I'm sure you are concerned about
the salts that come off into the river and environmentally impact
it that way.) But just driving through and seeing where some
improvements can be made I don't see where there is that much that
will impact the river, just by doing a few minor things.
Comments: Along with your accident statistics have you ever
thought about having almosts? You should request people to send in
and report how many times they have "almost" been wiped out. (lots
of laughter) .
Comment: That would affect almost everybody, wouldn't it?
Comment: Gale Larson went up there traffic counting and almost got
hit himself.
Comment: If any of you would like to write your comments I've got
some business cards here that you can pick up on your way out.
Stan Nuffer: If we have no more comments, some of you who felt to
shy to speak in public, we'll be here for a while. Come up and
look at the maps and drawings. Is there anyone else that wanted to
make a comment?
Comment: I'm John Hansen, and I don't think it has been brought up
that We all do a lot of business on the other side of the hill and I'm very much concerned about the
safety and while we talk a lot about the environment, but I wonder,
since when do we place a higher value on plant and animal life than
we do on human life? That is what has crossed my mind quite a bit.
It looks to me like we are here tonight as a community to express
this.
23

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LOGAN CANYON PUBLIC MEETING
November 3, 1986
COMMENTS FOLLOWING CH2M HILL PRESENTATION:
With that information we are here to listen, so we would invite you
to make your comments. We are recording the meeting so we would
like you to identify who you are for our record. This is not a ­formal
hearing, we are here to get ·your input. We want to know
what your concerns are, what you see as the issues and we invite
you to start. You can address your comments to the consulting
team, the Highway Dept, so let's be brave and lead off.
Bryce Nielson: I was wondering what the original decision or
reason was to have three alternative routes come from the summit
down. What is the specific problems associated with the existing
route?
Stan: Well, as you know, there are several hairpin curves on that
alignment. We will be looking at that alignment, we are not dis­carding
it, but we are saying, Is there another way? There is some
unstable ground in that alignment that the Highway Dept. has had to
deal with over the years. And it is now being built up along this
portion of the road. We were just asked by the Highway Dept. to
look at the possibilities, to review the whole route. If therp is
not a better way, we'll find out, if there is, maybe it is worth
looking at· in more detail.
Price: I have a question for Commissioner Weston. What
kind of priority is the Highway Department assigning to this
project?
Todd Weston: Well, very low. I've got to answer that honestly.
The problem we are in with money right now, we can't separate funds
from the north part, south part, or Wasatch Front and with the
problems we've got on the Wasatch Front right now, funding for this
project is considerably down the road a ways. That is as honest an
answer as I can give you. It is not a high priority. If we had
all this decid.ed today, it wouldn't be the most high priority, Just
it is something we have to go through, irregardless. It is still a
long ways down the road.
I'm Brian Stringham and I've been travelling that road for a long
time, and that is a deplorable situation to have seven 18 foot
bridges on US highway. That's uncalled for. This is 1986.
That road was started back in the late 20's and finished up in
1932, and there has been little improvement on that road except for
the lower end that was improved 20 years ago. But, I travel that
road as much as anybody in this room for a lot of years and this
one of the biggest beefs I've got when I talk to anybody, that
lousy road that we have to travel on. So if we can do something
with those bridges, and I'm glad this summer that they finally put
in a few guard rails, but half of the places they put guard rails
in they didn't need them. Up the street here there is about 600
feet of guard rail that drops over 10 feet. A mile· above that
where you come around the curve where you need it and it drops 100 feet or 150 feet, there is no guard rail. Now why is that? I think
what has happened is that the contractor come up here and missed
the place where he was suppose to put it. Those are some of the
7
gripes I've got. , We've got to change those bridges. I've drive a
big truck down there and I go down there and a woman was coming up
in a big car and she stopped in the middle of the bridge and I was
coming down at 40 miles an hour and she was just petrified, and
finally we worked it out so we got through, but I was afraid I was
going to push her off into the river. These 18 foot bridges have
got to be changed and we are not going to accept anything. less.
That's the main thing I'm unhappy with, those lousy bridges we've
got.
I'm Alan Harrison, Director of Bear Lake Regional Commission. Ken
Brown, County Commission Chairman of Rich County asked me to read a
statement.
"Having watched traffic increase for the past ten years, I
feel the canyon road should definitely be improved. Minimum
improvement should include three lane passing such as in the
lower canyon. Tourist flow to and from Bear Lake is important
to our economy and Logan Canyon is a problem. Safety is a
real COllcern, and anyone who travels the road regularly w')uld
agree that it is becoming more and more cumbersome and time
consuming. I feel no more studies are necessary and we should
commence with construction.
Stan: Would you please give us a copy of that?
Alan Harrison: Yes sir.
Paul Webb: I understand that this study has been in progress since
June of this year. One question is how much longer is the study
going to continue and the other question is, if this is a low pri­ority
on the UDOT budget, what is the time frame for any kind of
improvements rather it be the status quo approach or the whole ball
of wax?
Stan: We will be completing our work in June of next year. We
were given a year to do the study, and we are about halfway through
with our efforts right now. As far as the priority listing, there
is a number of funding programs that the state has access to
things such as the bridge replacement, maybe, could be a different
priority than improving the whole road. I'll let the UDOT answer
that more fully.
UDOT: If we 10 any work at all in the canyon, it will have to ~e
documented quite well from an environmental approach, that is to
justify the expenditure of fedelal funds on this project, and that
it will not harm the environment. One purpose of this study is to
identify various ways in which projects may be staged in the
canyon. It is our opinion that the structures are an important
issue and should be addressed as soon as possible. But even if we
had the money right now to replace the structures, we couldn't do it until we complete the environmental study that is underway now.
So the first step in this process is to evaluate the alternatives
and to also evaluate them on an environmental basis to justify the
8
expenditure of funds, and then funds could be awarded. Portions of
this project will go sooner 'than other parts. But if we are going
to do any work at all we must complete this long process.
Question: Who has the final say, the UDOT or the environmentalists?
UDOT: Both. What we are doing through this environmental study is
coming to a mutual understanding as to what we can realistically do
in the canyon.
Question: Okay my other question is, environmentally, which is
more important, to lose a life, even if an ambulance has to go
through any kind of weather through this canyon, which is more
important saving the environment or saving a life?
Lynn Zollinger: Those questions are hard to answer. (There was an
uproar in the crowd). Let me say what we intend to do is to design
a facility that will be the best facility we can build within the
constraints we are given. And it is not going to be a super route
or 60 mph
Comment: I'll bet if you ask any person in this room which is more
important they would say it is a person's life.
Question: I'm a citizen here in town. Didn't you have funds
approved for the entire Logan Canyon before the environmentalists
shot it down? Isn't that why the improvements were shut down
before?
Lynn Zollinger: There was a construction scheduled to begin at
Right Fork and continue to Ricks Spring. That was following
closely on the heels of the one completed on up to Right Hand Fork.
In the early seventies is when that was slated to go to construc­tion
and the funds werp. completed and I believe we were almost
ryady to advertise. Then the environmental issues surfaced and the
momentum at that time was stopped to this date.
Comment: I can't believe with all the rocks and trees we've got
around here there is anything so particular in that canyon.
Lynn Zollinger: There is, believe me. . There are very many issues
that are sensitive from an environmental standpoint.
Question: How many lawsuits do we have to file to get this sub­standard
road improved?
Lynn Zollinger: I can't answer that.
Question: What has happened to all those funds that they have from
the 5% tax in the whole U.S., there was supposed to be 60 million
dollars in the State of Utah to take care of substandard roads,
such as bridges. This was going to make employment, upgrade the
roads in the secondary and third grade roads in the whole U.S. and
9
each state was going to get their share. I don't think we even got
any of the pie back, did we?
Commissioner Weston:· I thought I was in a friendly area here. I
think in all fairness, and I know your concerns, I travel that road
quite often myself, and I know that there are some things that
ought to be done, and I don't think there is anybody that doesn't
agree with that. How far to go is the problem. We know that we
have to replace some bridges. We've got some bridges up there that
are too narrow and besides that they are structurally unsound, so
that if we don't do something pretty quick, we may have to do some­thing
more drastic. As far as why we have to do these studies, I
think I have the same position you have. I was County Commissioner
in Cache County for several years, and we went through several
exercises trying to make improvements up the canyon and we never
could satisfy enough people on what we needed to do and to get
enough unity in what to do in order to have the federal government
release funds. Now, that is a pure and honest statement. We have
some bridge replacement right now. These funds rollover and each
year and what funds aren't used rollover to another year. The
priority for our funds in Logan Canyon may be better next year than
this year, we don't know. We know that highway funds are badly
depleted right now. We are at least 40 million dollars behind our
funding of state highways right now. We actually got far enough
along in the last year- to program points for Logan Canyon on three
bridges, two of them are close to being funded, and we decided that
we needed to go through the necessary requirements to get the federal dollars. Remember that 95% of the money that would be
spent on this canyon is coming out of Washington. I appreciate
that it is your money, but it still has to be released by the
Federal Highway Dept. and when we requested to move ahead with
just the bridges we were told there would be no money given to us
by Federal Highways until a complete and indepth environmental
study for the whole canyon was complete. So, that's why these
people are hired. I sat on the commission over there and we had
$500,000 allocated one year to go from Right Hand Fork to Ricks
Spring, which would have in those days, built the thing. But we
couldn't move. We didn't have our homework done. Of course, I
wasn't in the highways then, but I was on the county commission and
I sat in the position you are in - frustration wondering why can't
we go. Well, it is even more complicated now than it was then.
We've got a terrible shortage of money for highways. We've got
some terrible problems. This isn't the only bad stretch of highway
we have in Utah. I've been over a lot of it in the last year and I
want to tell you this is not the worse stretch of road. It is
maybe, from your standpoint because you have to travel it, but if
you go from across the state you'll find many roads in pretty bad
shape. We are doing the best we can with the money we have. As
soon as the environmental study is complete, then we will go back
to the federal government and say, "Here's our plans, here is what
we can justify from a reasonable standpoint, here is what the
people think we need, and here is what we can do with the dollars
we've got, and not impact the canyon to the point that we are
foolish, and yet build a road that we need and will supply our
10
needs to the year 2010 and if we can hit that happy medium, then
we'll get approval. Of course, we've got to work with the Fo~est
Service. They own the land. You people need to understand that.
Comment: They work for the people.
Todd Weston: Yes, but they administrate it.
Dave Baumgarner: Forest Service doesn't own the land it is public
land.
Todd Weston: You people own the land, but the forest service
administrates it. And we are going to build improvements to that
highway. When I say "improvements" I sometimes get a gun pointed
at my throat. Some people consider that anything we do up there is
not improving. You need to know we have a lot of people that feel
that way. I'm not saying that they are right, or that you are
right. I know that somewhere in the middle we are going to find
some mutual ground that we can satisfy our needs with and that is
what we are trying to do. There are some places up in that canyon
that I don't want to see destroyed and I've got the same concerns
you have, but we are going to do the best job we can. We've got
make sure that it meets with their plans in their management
process for the canyon. Dave Baumgarner is charge with his office
to see that anything that is done in that canyon is the proper
thing to do for what the people need and want.
Question: I enjoy driving through the canyon as much as anybody
else does at anytime of the year. I really enjoy it. I don't
think anybody in this room would like to see the beauty of that
canyon destroyed. It would be ludicrous on our part to assume
that. It is a great calling card for us to bring people over here.
However, when you drive through it and you realize how bad the road
is and the fact that a lot of improvements can be made, then when
you've got to go through all these agencies you are talking about
and all the red tape and bureaucracy you are talking about, I don't
see why these entities, public and environmental, forest service,
can not sit down and give a little bit so that this road can be
improved whereby the flow of traffic will be safer for all
concerned going both ways. Now, the last two years there have been
a great flow of traffic through the canyon. The truck traffic flow
has increased considerable from Millers over there. And that is
fine, we'd like to see them come over here, but when you get in
certain places in that road, those trucks take up 3/4s of the high­way
and that leaves you with very little. As far as arguing about
the road, we need the road and we deserve the road. And we need to
have all these entities sit down and say, "Alright, these are the
problems, but let's get on with the program. Let's find out what
has to be done, let's take and give a little.
11
Sheldon: I appreciate all your concerns, they are great. We­
talked earlier about the length of our study. I think it might be
appropriate to answer why it takes a year to do the study. We are
trying to do the study correctly. If you read your newspaper you
can see what happened in Provo Canyon. I'm not saying that will
happen here, but, by gosh, we are going to do everything we can to
keep that from happening. But there are some lawsuits in Provo
that have been filed against UDOT and we do want to make sure that
we take time to get everything documented well enough, so that when
our recommendations are accepted, or UDOT makes the recommendation
and they and the Forest Service agree, we've got the proper frame­work
to support any potential lawsuit that might come down. That
takes time and I apologize for that.
Question: I have a question for Mr. Baumgarner. I think everybody
has preconceived notions about this entity out there called an
environmentalist, that they are instantly going to battle with the
residents over here. Since you are with the Forest Service and you
are going to represent the federal government's interest and proba-.
bly a lot of the biological and ecological interest in the can~on,
I'm interested in your comments as to do you really think the envi~
ronmentalists and the citizens are that far apart?
Dave Baumgarner: No, they are not. I don't have an answer any
different than that. There are some legitimate concerns on both
sides. But other than argue about statistical data that justifies,
or unjustifies the project, when it comes right down to it, the
issues aren't really that strong. Almost down to the point of talk­ing
about a specific corner as to whether or not for a fishery or
an environmental issue, there aren't very many serious issues about
bridges. If we had this to do all over again, to be quite frank,
and the state had the money to build bridges without having to go
to the federal government for funds, we would categorically exclude
bridges. What that means in our process is that with a half page
decision signed by my boss, the project would not have to go
through the entire environmental process on the specific bridge
replacement. In talking about individual corners, we are almost in
the same box, but not quite, depending on the issue on the specific
corner. From the Forest Service perspective, we are a lot closer
than people realize. However, there are some processes involved
that are giving us some troubl~, timewise.
Stan: Sheldon : why don't you identify where we go from here with
the public involvement process.
Sheldon: This meeting was really only intended as a public infor­mation
meeting. Certainly to solicit your comment, but this is
just the first of several opportunities that will come up over this
whole period of this study for people to have input. This is an
information meeting; we are just getting started. As we get into
the environmental assessment we will have what we call a Scoping
Meeting where we identify issues. We'll go from there with public
hearings and you will have plenty of opportunity to speak up and
frankly, I think it is great, and please keep doing it.
12
Bill Peterson: I am questioning your statistics on your growth
rate. We've been in a down trend in our economy in this area, but
in the last year there have been a number of major projects express
interest in building motels and hotels here and 'I think that your
2% growth rate is going to be way short of the actual growth rate
of the traffic on the highway. I think we will get that 2% just
from our locals. If there is any other increase, it will go way
over that.
Stan: We share that concern. Cliff Forsgren did that study for us
and it was reviewed very carefully by UDOT and by the interdisci­plinary
team we work with on a fairly regular basis. Cliff, why
don't you cover the background on that.
Cliff: The approach to putting together projections requires a
great deal of knowledge, experience and skill, and computers and
everything else and when you are done? Frankly, we look at it from
a couple of different perspectives. We look at it from what has
occurred over the past 10 or 12 years as long as we have the cata
from a counter station. We also took the State of Utah's projec­tion
for economic growth in northern Utah and we came up with
numbers that were very close to the same. From the standpoint of
those of us that were preparing this projections, 2% is a bit
uncomfortable. But based on the information we had, it was diffi­cult
to come up with anything higher. Believe me, I tried. Look­ing
at the average daily flow in the summer in one year you may
have a significant increase from one year to the next, but the next
year then it will drop off some, and it averages out. If someone
could give us some data or some information that would show that it
needs to be higher, but based on what we have got, that's all we
could justify.
Ted Wilson: Doesn't I-I5 plan to finished off further past
Tremonton?
UDOT: That is correct.
Ted Wilson: Are they planning to improve the Valley View highway
into Logan?
UDOT: We haven't got any engineering done on Valley View. It is
on our hope list.
Ted Wilson: At present, I'm sure everybody would agree that the
canyon is beautiful, but we would also becoming a deterrent to
traffic coming this way. An improved highway may bring as many as
10% higher flow rate almost immediately. People are getting scared
of Logan Canyon. It is getting bad. The shoulders are horrible.
They washed out really bad this last year. People don't like to
travel it once they have seen it. If they want to get some place,
they are starting to go around. Other communities are advertising
to draw the traffic away from Logan to Soda Springs, to Randolph,
that type of thing. As for looking to the past, we have had a
13
falling off of percentage and that 2% may look that way, but if you
have an improved highway, business wise and traffic flow wise, I
think you'll see a tremendous higher use, and especially if 1-15 is
finished and good access to Logan, to Tremonton. We still are the
major route to Jackson Hole and Yellowstone areas, but Logan Canyon
is a mess.
Question: I have a couple of questions for Mr. Weston. First, how
much do you project it will cost to fix the existing substandard
bridges and how much did it cost to hire CH2M Hill?
Weston: I'll turn those questions over to the engineers; they've
got the exact figures.
Lynn Zollinger: The cost to build a structure cost about $45.00
per square foot. The new bridges I expect will be 40' wide, give
or take a few feet, and the length is about 150'. That is a
preliminary guess, so whatever 40 times 45 times 150 would be the
structure cost.
Question: How many substandard bridges?
Todd Weston: Seven.
Lynn Zollinger: Some are longer than others, like at Tony Grove
where they are relatively short span, but others sucn as Lower Twin
Bridge and Burnt Bridge and Red Bank Bridge that are considerably
larger. So the way I look at it, there are four major structures
and at least three minor structures.
Question: What about hiring a construction firm for a year?
Lynn Zollinger: The fee for hiring the consultants is around
$500,000. It is a very expeasive study. I think it shows the
UDOT's commitment to solve the problems at Logan Canyon.
Kathy Webb: If you have two other options here you are thinking
about for alternate routes through the canyon, how realistic is it
that you are going to do something with the existing canyon? Are
you planning on doing any funding anyway?
Stan: Yes, that's all part of the study.
Kathy Webb: And the other two options are...
Stan: The other two options are only from the summit to Garden
City, so they don't really impact the canyon at all.
Kathy Webb: The other question I have is I have to know what the
logic is behind the passing lane at Ricks Springs. I just have to
know that. That is the craziest passing lane I have ever been on!
Is that what it is? (Lots of laughter)
Lynn, do you want to handle that?
14
Lynn: There was a passing lane built at Ricks Springs. That was
done as a desperation move. There is no other term for it, by the
UDOT to provide some improvement in the canyon. (more laughter).
In a lot of ways we had our hands tied as to spending money to make
improvements in Logan Canyon. One group says improve it, do this,
do that, and the other group says you can't do anything without the
appropriate studies. And I guess the best way to look at ·the pass­ing
lane is that while it did offer some relief and some improve­ment
for that section, is that we wanted to make an improvement and
go out and do something.
Question: You mentioned here tonight that there will be other
meetings. Where are they going to be?
Stan: We will have another Scoping Meeting when we get very
specific about what are the alternatives we are going to be looking
at. There will be one of those held in Logan and one held here in
this valley.
Question: Another question I have is how much weight does this
meeting we are having here hold? Is Logan going to be able to
override us again?
Stan: I don't know if that is a fair assessment. There are a lot
of people in Logan that feel the same as you do. But they are
unfortunately, the silent majority. So we are going to make these
studies and identify some alternatives and there will be reports
produced that will show what the benefits and non-benefits of each
alternative are. The final result of this will be the recommended
alternative, but the agencies will select, those being the UDOT and
the Forest Service. They will select the recommended alternative
and a hearing will be held that will discuss that.
Paul Webb: I think it was commissioner Weston that mentioned that
our project was a low priority project. I assume he was talking
about expenditure of money. I would like to know whose list we are
on. Is that the UDOT's priority list and how will this study
affect that priority?
Todd Weston: Paul, I guess I've got to say that everybody is on a
low priority until we get more money. We just have some many
projects ahead of us that we are just putting out fires, is what we
are doing. We know that if we don't do something on 1-15 within the
next three years, we are going to have a big parking lot between
Brigham City and Salt Lake, and I'm talking about that literally.
And we are talking about a major part of the population living in
that part of the state. We have to put things in the perspective.
I think our preconstruction engineer put it as well as I can. We
are going to do what we can. See, there are different funds; there
are bridge funds that are ready to go. We had some that were ready
to go, but we were stopped by Federal Highways to do any bridgework
until we completed this exercise we are going through now. Had
Dave Baumgarner and I been able to sit down together as the Forest
15
Service and UDOT we probably could have built those bridges and had
Federal Highway release the dollars, and they probably will now.
But in defense of the environmental study with CH2M Hill, why we
are hiring these people, is that we are hiring to gain some time.
We simply do not have staff to put them on this project and do it
in the time frame we are trying to do and get on with the construc­tion.
They are hired to do the job we didn't have staff to do it
in the time frame we need.
Question: I remember going to a meeting several years ago with the
UDOT and talking about a problem we had in Laketown Canyon. That
priority was very low, and then suddenly it jumped up to where it
was partially completed. You mentioned that 95% of the funds can't
be approved until this study is done. If this study is done to
their satisfaction and application is made and they approve 95%
funding, what chance do we have to have that priority jump?
Todd Weston: Of course, after that is done we have to go to pre­construction
plans. You know, we could start on some bridges
rather rapidly. But you see, when you start on some bridges, well,
take the bridge at the bottom of the dugway, a tall bridge, an
expensive structure, needs to be widened. Now, when you widen it,
do you just widen the bridge, or do you go down stream a ways and
take that big sharp curve off from it and make a decent curve at
the bottom of it? One thing leads to another to where you start
impacting further down the road. So we've got to do it in an
orderly fashion, and frankly, I'm glad we are doing it this way
because once and for all, we will have a document in our hands that
says, "This is what we can reasonably do to improve the canyon."
Now, well you say the environmentalists stopped the other projects.
Well, maybe yes, and maybe no, maybe we didn't have our homework
done. We just got two lawsuits slapped on us on Provo Canyon,
which is a similar project, with more traffic and more people, but
similar. We got slapped with two lawsuits, and neither one of them
are environmentalists, typical qualified environmentalist groups
like the Sierra Club, and others. They were not recognized as
environmentalists groups. The person who stopped us was an eco­nomics
professor at BYU. He is the one that filed the suit. I
don't know if he has any other money behind him or not, but he is
the one who stopped us. And he stopped us because he said they
didn't need the type or road we were putting through that canyon.
Pure and simple. And the judge decided he had better hear more
about it and so there is an injunction on it. That is the kind of
problem we run into.
Comment: I appreciate all that you have to go through, but I still
wonder if that low priority is all we are going to get.
Todd Weston: Well, I guess we are a little bit like a squeaky
wheel. If the demand is there strong enough and we can justify it
then we are going to move faster where we can. But when I say
16
Logan Canyon has low priority, I've got to say it has low priority
compared to I-15, it has low priority compared to probably a dozen
other projects in District 1 and we are only one District in the
state.
Don Huffener: You mentioned the squeaky wheel. I was at the meet­ing
you had in Logan, too and you mentioned it again here, that in
the summertime is the big volume of traffic and 80% of that traffic
is through traffic all the way through the canyon. Most of those
people never get heard because they are not from Logan or here, so
Todd Weston: I think we have some better figures than that.
Don Huffener: Well, I stopped down at Valley Engineering and
picked it up.
Todd Weston to CH2M Hill: Is that your statement?
Sheldon: The people who start through the canyon, 80% go all the
way through the canyon rather th~n stop in the canyon to recreate.
Don Huffener: So the majority of the people who use the canyon
aren't getting a hearing on this. The other thing is at the other
meeting your spokesperson said that the ID committee was unanimous
in their desire to keep Logan Canyon as a destination. Your
spokeswoman said that. I'm sure I am right. So, the pass through
traffic, how much consideration are they getting? That was a
statement from your office.
Stan Nuffer: I think she might have been misunderstood.
Comment: She was implying that they want to make Logan Canyon a
destination and recreational area, where people come into the
canyon, recreate and then go home.
Cliff: That is the desire of many people to make it that way. I
guess the way to answer that is that you really have two views, and
I don't see anything that is going to keep both of these from being
answered.
John Murphy: When I first came to the valley about 15 years ago I
was looking for a place to buy some supplies and I soon found
another route to Ogden and on through. Going on a dirt road in the
south end of the valley down there, which is called
Canyon, which is 500 feet lower than your Logan Pass; it doesn't
have any environmental problems, there is no river to fight, you
can go down into Ogden and it is 15 minutes longer than using your
superhighway through Logan Canyon. So if the people in Logan are
so upset about the environmental impact of us people who live and
drive the canyon, rather than those that stop and turn around and
go home, why don't they build us a road into Ogden? We could get
to Ogden in the same time it takes to get to Logan. Re-route
17
Highway 89 up through Cottonwood, up through the flats up there, no
river, basic road is facing south, so the sun does most of the
clearing for you rather than snow plowing; it goes to the area of
Monte Cristo, we can go on down there and get our supplies, route
the tourists through there, and Logan can have their canyon and go
up there and recreate and turn around and go home. (Applause)
My name is Ernest Henry, with the Bridgerland Audobon Society in
Logan, and I would like to second what was mentioned earlier.
Environmental groups aren't out to stop everything and anything,
but we do have distinct and definite concerns about Logan Canyon.
That is why I am here tonight. There is nothing I'd rather be
doing that be home tonight, but I'm here because I'm very concerned
about the quality of the environment in Logan Canyon. So, we will
work with you, and compromise, but I do have one concern. Some­thing
that has been repeatedly stated and stated here tonight and
often times stated in the paper and that is that a big impediment
to your economic development and the economic development of Bear
Lake is the Logan Canyon road, that if it was somehow improved, the
economy would be better. That may be true, I don't know, but one
thing I have yet to see is any facts on that.
Comment: MOVE OVER HERE. Try driving the canyon twice a week and
you would change your mind.
UDOT: I'd like to make a comment on the alternate route. We have
looked at it and an alternate route would cost about 1.2 to 2
million per mile. We don't have that kind of money right now. We
do feel that two decades from now that will be a realistic alterna­tive
to look at. Right now the money we have available is to
improve the facility we have built. I hope you are right about the
environmental situation. When we get there I'm afraid there might
be more problems that we anticipate, but alternate routes have been
looked at but at this time we don't feel the availability of funds
makes it a viable alternate. We need to be upgrading what we have
here.
Comment: Just one comment about alternate routes. Someone must be
sniffing glue if they tried an alternate route through Hodges
Canyon. It is almost impossible to get through. You would never
see a snow plow out. So the studies you are doing on alternate
routes are not very well done. The other route that original
pioneers used which is pretty close to your yellow route is a much
better route. Now, I talked to some of the old timers who worked on
the route that we've got now and they said those crazy guys from
Salt Lake City don't know how to build a road, but since they are
paying us, we'll build it anyhow. The yellow route does look like
it is a better route.
UDOT: The yellow route is the principal route at this point, but
we did indicate to the consultant that we wanted to look at some
alternatives. We they took some geotechnical data and they have
indicated that the green route is not desirable, but that the
yellow one is, again we are going to have to look at that when it
comes time to getting the property and alignment, which will be in
the latter stages of the whole study. But we will probably be
working with the county people and if we can establish that that is
a desirable route, and the local people are in agreement, then we
will work with the county commission in reserving the rights of way
so we don't have to come in unprepared. But that is the principal
route at this time.
CH2M Hill: We share your conclusions about the green route.
Comment: Do you? I saw what you were doing and I couldn't believe
my eyes.
Comment: I was wondering, the lower part of the canyon that has
been improved, was there any data before so that you can compare
the impact that it has had on the lower route so you might have
some information to apply to the higher route? Is that being
considered?
Stan: We have looked at all the data we can get. Unfortunately,
the safety data, the basis has changed, so it is kind of hard to
draw conclusions. We just have to go along with what is nationally
accepted approaches to these kinds of problems.
Barry Negus: One concern I have is if you change to an alternate
route on the lower portion here, what are the people going to do?
What is going to happen to the existing road there now and what is
going to have to be done for the people that are living along that
route to get out in the winter?
Lynn Zollinger: If we realign the highway to another locations, it
doesn't mean the other one will be clos~d, we'd probably say we
would turn it over to Rich County to maintain and plow.
Comment: Don't do that. (laughter)
Lynn Zollinger: The UDOT is not likely to maintain two routes. The
disposition of the old route would have to be resolved.
Comment: I would like to ask the gentleman from the Audobon
Society if he is a native of the area, is hea student at the
college, do you live in Logan as a temporary position the, what
is your impact personally on improvements in the canyon or is this
just an assignment you have from the college or Audobon Society?
Ernest Henry: No, I was born in Cincinnati, Ohio; my parents moved
to Albuquerque in 1969. I got a bachelors degree from Colorado
State in Wildlife Biology in 1979. I loved to Logan to attend
graduate school and I have a masters degree in Range Science there
and I now work with the USDA in the agricultural research service
doing research in alfalfa growth and I am a member of the Audobon
Society because it is something I believe in and am interested in it
So, anyway, I live and work in Logan right now and I intend to stay
there for the foreseeable future.
19
Comment: What do you think about the problems on the road?
Ernest Henry: I think there are two major environmental problems I
see with road construction. One is the river itself, water qual­ity,
quantity, diverting it, changing it from something that is
rather free flowing with biological integrity to something that is
riprapped and has little biological integrity, and also I think the
scenic value of the canyon is important. If your only interest is
in economic development, I don't think you can deny that something
that is going to bring people to this area is the scenic quality of
Logan Canyon. It is an important aspect to this area. It is a
recreational resource, granted more in Logan's favor than in Bear
Lake's favor. But it is a recreational resource of significance
and that shouldn't be overlooked.
Comment: I'm just glad to know a transplant from the Sierra Club
in Oklahoma.
Comment: I don't think it matters where we are from, but I think
the thing that this gentleman is stating and what the residents
from this side of the hill are willing to work with them. We don't
want to change the whole canyon. We think there are improvements
that can and should be made and as a community we all feel that
way.
Comment: We all love the canyon. We do. We want it preserved.
We don't want it spoiled.
Comment: And I think we are all saying the same thing allover
again. We want quality, but we also want some improvements and I
think it is possible to work with them if we can just get on with
it. Let's work together and get it done.
Richard Mills: Have you as the state studied the other road coming
in from Salt Lake and Evanston in the summer as far as road
counters?
Stan Nuffer: Are you talking about the existing highway or those
proposed?
Richard Mills: The existing highway. You have a traffic study,
right? You have two counters one going north and one coming into
Garden City. Have they done anything coming in from Evanston up
over Laketown Canyon?
Stan Nuffer: We are somewhat familiar with the state procedures.
They have permanent traffic counters all over the state.
UDOT: We no longer have a permanent counter in Laketown Canyon,
but they do annual studies. Sometimes they vary from a week or a
day. But because of lesser volumes they don't go to the expense of
a full time permanent counter there, but they use statistic projec­tion
methods to get a short count and project it. to a longer count.
20
Stan Nuffer: They have a guide that is called "Traffic on Utah
Highways" that is published biannually that lists all this traffic
information and I'm sure you could get a copy of that.
Richard Mills: My point is if you would study that information you
would probably find out that as people get more scared of Logan
Canyon, they are probably coming around the other way. A good
share of the people that come in are from Salt Lake and Ogden.
Stan Nuffer: I don't know if you can draw that kind of conclusion
from the data that is there, but it could be looked at.
Joe West: I'm wondering how bad the lower end of the canyon looks
now. I remember when that was rebuilt; realigned and they were
fighting on that, and that was what stopped them from going on up
into the canyon. I'd be interested in knowing how that looks 'now
that the growth is back up. I can see that when construction goes
on you are going to have a problem for a year or two, but growth
comes back. I heard one man say that that was the first time he
went down Logan Canyon and saw anything but the yellow line. You
know, before the rest of this canyon gets built, the lower end of
the canyon is going to be obsolete.
stan: We hope to get at least the same standard throughout the
whole canyon. Beyond that, if traffic continues to increase, there
might need to be alternate routes looked at to take some of the
pressure.
Joe West: I'd like to ask the Audobon Society how the lower end of
the canyon looks to him.
Ernest Henry: My general reaction is that it doesn't look that
bad. Nevertheless, I don't think you can just say, "Okay, there it
worked." We don't want to take any chances. I guarantee you that.
We are not out just to slow things up but we want it to stay a
recreational resource second to none. I'd like to make another
comment and this is strictly factual. As I mentioned I lived in
Colorado for a while and if you think this battle over a road was
something, Glenwood was an awesome battle. That was on interstate
70 that went on for years and years and years. And they finally
worked something out. I think Ch2M Hill would do well to look at
some of the approaches that were used there.
Stan Nuffer: We were involved in that process.
Jim Naegle: Two months ago we visited Glenwood Canyon, and we
built the Interstate 15 through the River by St. George at
$1,000,000 per mile and we thought that was a great cost for build­ing
a road. The 12 miles of Glenwood Canyon now cost 14 million to
put a bike path through, and 235 million dollars to build the road
and it is because of tradeoffs with the envizonmental organiza­tions.
I want to add just this. That UDOT is more environmentally
sensitive than we have ever been as a Highway Department; some of
21
it from need and some of it from desire. The lower part of the
canyon wasn't as environmentally sensitive as the middle portion of
the canyon. We are intent on building a facility that will accom­modate
as much as possible. We are willing to make tradeoffs. We
are looking for tradeoffs with the environmental people, the forest
service and the Highway Dept. We want to get in and build the best
highway with the least amount of impact that can be done. And we
will be keeping you people appraised as to our progress on that,
but we need your input and your support as to how you feel and that
is why we appreciate your 'coming tonight. It is our intent to
build something that will serve us as best as possible and to mini­mize
the impacts. That's the tradeoffs we are looking for.
Cliff: Maybe as a summary comment, we can still have more ques­tions,
but I would carry it a step further than what Jim said.
Other than the time that it takes to complete the study, which I
would agree with is intolerable from your perspective, but other
than. the time I'm not pessimistic as to how this will turn out. In
fact I'm rather optimistic as Dave Baumgarner and others have
stated that we are going to be able to find some common ground that
satisfies the environmental needs and still gives you a good road
through the canyon that you all deserve. So, I wouldn't be pes­simistic
about it, but I would be careful to take the time to make
your presence known, even if it takes going to Logan to do it. We
need toe input and we need a balanced input.
Comment: I'm been on a committee representing this area for a num­ber
of years when we first started these studies, and I know when
we got the information on this study we requested you come here and
we do appreciate your coming here because it is cumbersome to
travel that road in the wintertime. We want you to know we do
appreciate your coming here and we hope you appreciate the impact
the canyon has on the people on this side of the mountain. There
are a lot of people from Bear Lake County . that have some concerns.
We . would strongly encourage you to continue to hold some meetings
over here and not to look at sheer numbers, but you are talking
about real users and real business people, not an organized group
by any means like you might find in Logan, because I listened to
them and I've seen their tables etc. but please continue to come
over here and keep us informed. I would suggest you may even
explore the idea of holding a meeting in Salt Lake City, because
that affects a lot of those people Don Huffener was talking about
that travel through here constantly and a majority of those people
are in the Wasatch Front.
CH2M Hill: We spoke with them today and they let it be known that
they expect to see us.
Comment: Good. Also you might consider that the next time you
have a meeting in here if you hold it on a summer night and a
Friday night you'll get some of those same types of people and
you'll get a good cross section.
Stan Nuffer: That is a good idea, thank you.
22
I'm Cliff Brown and I'm a member of the town council in Laketown
and I just think that the beauty of the canyon is out of this world
at time, nobody disagrees with that. I'm also an EMT and I've
driven the ambulance through there through all kinds of weather. I
think we need to keep in mind that that road is our lifeline to the
outside world. We are up here isolate otherwise. There are a
couple of other places we can travel, but this is our main
lifeline, between here and Logan and I think that is what we need
to keep in mind.
Question: Are there any preliminary plans as far as re-routing the
existing road in places? Do you have any plans there at all?
Stan Nuffer: We are just getting started in that process. We want
to get your input first and then we will get into that process.
Comment: As you drive through the canyon, in reference to the gen­tleman's
comments about riprapping the river, as I drive through
the canyon I see very few places where th0se kinds of places are
going to exist and where the road possibly could be moved com­pletely
away from the river and actually add to the quality of the
river instead of pushing the snow (I'm sure you are concerned about
the salts that come off into the river and environmentally impact
it that way.) But just driving through and seeing where some
improvements can be made I don't see where there is that much that
will impact the river, just by doing a few minor things.
Comments: Along with your accident statistics have you ever
thought about having almosts? You should request people to send in
and report how many times they have "almost" been wiped out. (lots
of laughter) .
Comment: That would affect almost everybody, wouldn't it?
Comment: Gale Larson went up there traffic counting and almost got
hit himself.
Comment: If any of you would like to write your comments I've got
some business cards here that you can pick up on your way out.
Stan Nuffer: If we have no more comments, some of you who felt to
shy to speak in public, we'll be here for a while. Come up and
look at the maps and drawings. Is there anyone else that wanted to
make a comment?
Comment: I'm John Hansen, and I don't think it has been brought up
that We all do a lot of business on the other side of the hill and I'm very much concerned about the
safety and while we talk a lot about the environment, but I wonder,
since when do we place a higher value on plant and animal life than
we do on human life? That is what has crossed my mind quite a bit.
It looks to me like we are here tonight as a community to express
this.
23