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Re: Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

Originally Posted by Torran

Soifon didn't create a mere afterimage. Afterimages were what Yoruichi and Ichigo did. What both Soifon and Zommari did to create clones was jump between multiple spots with speed, back and forth, to create quasi clones. So what they both did was essentially create multiple versions of themselves by using pure speed.

The clones was used to display speed using afterimages (a more refine verson of afterimages). At the end of the day, they are just afterimages (which I defined for you) nothing more.

Originally Posted by Torran

Starrk proved to be the strongest normal Espada. But that doesn't make specially good at anything. His speed was great but nothing says his was the fastest. His Hierro was strong but nothing says it was as strong as Nnoitra's. His intellect was also great but nothing says it was as good as Szayels. Each Espada had something going for them that the rest knew about.
No. Byakuya never once matched Zommari. He was attacking clones that Zommari made easy to targets. In speed it wasn't even a match.

He certianly has better feats than Zommari who couldn't catch Byakuya even once with his so called speed.

Originally Posted by Torran

There is one time where he got serious, and that time he remained stationary while his wolves attacked for him.

After that time he still fought Shunsui (who matched him). Regardless he was serious before (he just didn't reveal his 2nd ability).

Originally Posted by Torran

The so called "rusty Yoruichi" outran Byakuya while carrying Ichigo. If she had been "at her peak" she could have beaten Byakuya just like how Ichigo could have killed him right after going Bankai for the first time.

She didn't outran him. She used an escape tech (samething Byakuya used against Zommari). Not once did she outran him.

Originally Posted by Torran

You are in no position to say that as you have never lost most of your subordinates, your superior and a war in a span of minutes. Everybody there was on the verge of breaking into tears, all that was needed to make them want to break something was somebody saying "Sup, more people are going to die.". Soifon has always been kind of volatile, and so is Kensei and Komamura so they reacted like that. But no other captain interfered because they were feeling the same.

You are in no position to question me on this subject. Nuff said
You keep deviating from the point. Her behavior was not acceptable. Simple as. The excuse for her behavior is besides the point (it's still unacceptable).

Originally Posted by Torran

What they are doing is basically paying the expenses of digging up a fallen building when they could have helped keep it standing. There's barely any point on doing that.

Which part of 'It's not their job' to babysit SS don't you understand? How do you know the methods they are gonna use to rebuild? Are you perhaps Kubo?

Originally Posted by Torran

Hitsugaya's rage made them turn their heads towards him for a second, which was all Aizen needed to blitz them. He wouldn't have been able to do them same without having used Hinamori.

Toshiro was flying towards Aizen (the target) they turned to him slightly briefly but for them to completely disregard the fact that they are still focusing on Aizen? Nah that's ridiculous. Another thing is, Shinigami (especially experienced captain lvl) can sense reiatsu so for Aizen to have cut, not one nor two or three but 4 shinigami down in an instant is a huge speed feat.

Originally Posted by Torran

He has never used speed to one shot anybody. It's always massive strength.

Strength without speed = almost worthless.

Originally Posted by Torran

He wasn't surprised at all. He was casually chatting with him, when he noticed him move, so he stopped talking and used his arm to block the strike,

Against Yoruichi, big time. And Aizen. And Barragan. And Aizen again. Speed, I mean, not power.

Rusty Yoruichi, accomplished nothing against Aizen & Barragan?(lol).

Originally Posted by Torran

Why are you using this as a base for your argument? None of the captain fights were shown except for Yamamoto's or part of Shunsui's. The point was that the Gotei was meant to lose. Every captain was just shown having trouble and that's it.

If she was so darn fast to the point of one-shotting capable captain lvl fighters (before they can react) like Yama, that sternritter should likely be dead. The point was for Gotei to lose due to there incompetence (as stated by the zero squad's members).

Originally Posted by Torran

He hasn't. He's certainly fast, but nothing that can catch every captain off guard. And he certainly hasn't proven to be far above anybody else.

Far above everyone else? When did that come out of my mouth? I said above Soifon.

Originally Posted by Torran

Maybe he could do this to Kenpachi. Maybe. And Mayuri. Probably. I think. Dunno. Yamamoto is not at a level where he can take on all the captains at once. Nobody at a normal level is.

So you just admitted that Soifon can oneshot a captain (considering the fact that you think she is faster than Yama) like Kenpachi & Mayuri because you said Yama could maybe one shot them too. Way to overrate a her.
Kenpachi is brute. Yama is not just a bigger brute but also a faster & stronger brute. He will do it do Kenpachi.

Originally Posted by Torran

About half the captains at the very least.

So you think Soifon could oneshot half the captains huh? Again way to overrate a character.

Originally Posted by Torran

No. I don't think so. But only because her ability is "2 hit kill" so that instantly disqualifies her as able to one shot anybody, no matter how slow or weak.

You implied Soifon could get half the captains with pure speed without them being able to react. What is to stop her from performing the samething she did against Barragan's fraccion? Because according to you she could easily blitz capable captains with her speed.

Originally Posted by Torran

I'm not overrating anybody. I'm simply following the bar set by the character in the manga. You are the one underrating her whilst overrating over characters based on nothing.

You are overrating her & understimating other (capable captain lvl) characters by thinking Soifon could easily blitz them without them reacting (implying she blitz them a second time or perform what she did against Barragan's fraccion).

Originally Posted by Torran

And yet she excels at it lile almost no other character has shown in the series. Speed greatly compliments her position and she also wanted to surpass Yoruichi.

Too bad non is questioning that. Just questioning the extent in which she could blitz.

Originally Posted by Torran

Yes. I'll even go as far as saying any of the RG is so strong that they could take Yamamoto down individually. Especially after seeing what they can do.

The 5 RG's combined power is greater than Gotei 13. Yama is atleast 50% of the Gotei 13 (every captain relied on him far too much for that reason). & His bankai is so deadly it can destroy the entire SS (the entire SS not just seireitei). That's madness.

Originally Posted by Torran

Don't think so. You misinterpreted half of your sources and the other half doesn't exist.

So you say but you are running away from a very simple question I pointed right at your face. Is Soifon's behavior acceptable. YES or NO? (this is what escalated this pointless debate to this extent in the first place).

Re: Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

I don't see what Soifon's behavior has got to do with this debate, honestly.
Her fight was off-paneled and all we know, she had her Bankai stolen. We don't even know if her opponent used the Bankai against her or not. But going by logic, that was more likely a struggle to stalemate.
Since we don't even know who Soifon was paired up with, there is no reason to think that she did any worse than fellow captains to be ashamed.

If it means anything, no other captain stood up and tried to stop Soifon's furious burst. Nobody tried to calm her down, because it would be rather pointless.
How can you expect someone to keep her cool with the nonchalant entrance Squad Zero have just made?
Captains are alive and on feet, but that's very unlikely for the lowly Shinigami in the squads, so, there is a chance that Soifon lost many of her subordinates during the battle. That goes for all other captains, as well.
And here, Squad Zero talks about rebuilding after so many Shinigami has passed away.
I'm sorry, but if someone refers to you as a fledgling out of nowhere and has done nothing to back up that arrogant way of talking when you were in trouble, you get frustrated.
You either suppress it or let it out.

I still don't understand why Soifon was one of the quick ones to go Bankai, though.
There is no way her SS opponent was as strong as Barragan, and her Bankai could end up destroying a large area within SS, so it's not a reasonable action at first look.
Maybe going Bankai, too, like the whole incident, points out to the hot-headed young Soifon being unable to handle the war pressure.

Re: Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

The clones was used to display speed using afterimages (a more refine verson of afterimages). At the end of the day, they are just afterimages (which I defined for you) nothing more.

Those were not afterimages. Clones are created by jumping between the same two spots back and forth at a high speed. Whenever there was an image of her she was actually there every fraction of a second. They are not used to display speed, speed is used to display clones.

Originally Posted by Kay3795

He certianly has better feats than Zommari who couldn't catch Byakuya even once with his so called speed.

Couldn't? Zommari wasn't serious about trying to kill Byakuya until the end. As soon as Byakuya tried to attack he would once again surround him with clones. He could have caught Byakuya at any moment but he didn't because he wanted him to swallow his arrogance.

Originally Posted by Kay3795

After that time he still fought Shunsui (who matched him). Regardless he was serious before (he just didn't reveal his 2nd ability).

He wasn't serious there either. He was getting progressively more depressed and distracted, and clutching his chest in pain. Shunsui's game also changed the course of the fight since Starrk could no longer use his wolves or Cero guns. Shunsui would have never won if it wasn't for his sneak attack or his constant cheating.

Originally Posted by Kay3795

She didn't outran him. She used an escape tech (samething Byakuya used against Zommari). Not once did she outran him.

She did twice.

Originally Posted by Kay3795

You are in no position to question me on this subject. Nuff said
You keep deviating from the point. Her behavior was not acceptable. Simple as. The excuse for her behavior is besides the point (it's still unacceptable).

Captains can behave however they like as long as they do what they are ordered to do. You keep saying her behavior is not acceptable yet Yamamoto is allowed to rage, Gin pisses people off, Unohana constantly harasses people, Shunsui slacks of most of the time, and Kenpachi and Mayuri are monsters with no regard for rightful behavior. But god forsake somebody else with a bad battle record justifiably misbehaves because that person is immature, right? Well, I don't think so.

Originally Posted by Kay3795

Which part of 'It's not their job' to babysit SS don't you understand? How do you know the methods they are gonna use to rebuild? Are you perhaps Kubo?

I'm Kubo's editor and he told me he wanted to make the Royal Guard's purpose shady and make two captains question their presence. "Babysit" and "damage control" are very different things. Whatever method they are going to use to rebuild, coming after the invasion to rebuild is absolute bullshit. So easy to speak about acting once the play is over, right?

Originally Posted by Kay3795

Toshiro was flying towards Aizen (the target) they turned to him slightly briefly but for them to completely disregard the fact that they are still focusing on Aizen? Nah that's ridiculous. Another thing is, Shinigami (especially experienced captain lvl) can sense reiatsu so for Aizen to have cut, not one nor two or three but 4 shinigami down in an instant is a huge speed feat.

No. Aizen was on the ground and Hitsugaya was next to the other three. That's a 135 degree angle they had to turn their heads on. The page clearly shows them turning around. And that second of distraction was all Aizen needed to cut them down, because Shunpo is like speed of light times ten or something. Cutting somebody in an instant is something everybody can do.

Originally Posted by Kay3795

Strength without speed = almost worthless.

He obviously has speed but it's mostly strength. Yamamoto's movements were always sluggish whenever he was fighting. No agility or visible speed, just firm attacks.

WonderWeiss jumped at him, got punched back, later his arms got ripped off, and Yamamoto was like, 3m away. WonderWeiss was mentally retarded but he still had feelings, Yamamoto even commented on it, so he got scared and didn't even move. No speed there, Yamamoto just had to take a step forward.

Yamamaoto wasn't far at all, and that last page he's attacking from a distance, not from right under Driscoll. From this distance all he had to do was raise his arm.

Originally Posted by Kay3795

Apparently you haven't been paying much attention.

So let's see. Against Shunsui and Ukitake he only swung his sword towards them once. Against Ayon he Shunpo's right next to its head. Against Aizen he kind of just jumped to punch his face. Against WonderWeiss he kind of just dodged or attacked when WW charged. Against Driscoll he just arrived to save Hisagi, and against Royd he jumped to attack. So yeah, his fight against Ayon is the only example.

Originally Posted by Kay3795

Rusty Yoruichi, accomplished nothing against Aizen & Barragan?(lol).

You keep saying to yourself that she was rusty. Against Aizen the first time she stopped him from even pulling his sword and against the second she just used a distraction for Hitsugaya. She also managed to stab him twice. So technically speaking, she achieved more than nearly everyone. And Barragan doesn't count because he could slow time.

Originally Posted by Kay3795

If she was so darn fast to the point of one-shotting capable captain lvl fighters (before they can react) like Yama, that sternritter should likely be dead. The point was for Gotei to lose due to there incompetence (as stated by the zero squad's members).

The point was for the Gotei to lose, plain and simple. None of the fights were shown because it wasn't necessary. It was meant to be a short battle that the Gotei would lose. 15 chapters is a new record for Bleach. And incompetence is a big word considering the amount of Stern Ritter outnumbered the amount of captains, who could also steal their Bankai.

Originally Posted by Kay3795

Far above everyone else? When did that come out of my mouth? I said above Soifon.

You said above captain level fighter, therefore everybody else. BUT I've already disproven your claim that Yamamoto has been shown to be the fastest, because he hasn't. Soifon however has been shown to be very fast.

Originally Posted by Kay3795

So you just admitted that Soifon can oneshot a captain (considering the fact that you think she is faster than Yama)

You were clearly talking about Yamamoto and I was clearly talking about Yamamoto in response. I was expecting you to remember your own posts.

Originally Posted by Kay3795

(considering the fact that you think she is faster than Yama)

I know she is based on what she's done, which is a lot more than exactly two isolated examples of Yamamoto used any sort of high speed, one of which was off panel.

Originally Posted by Kay3795

like Kenpachi & Mayuri because you said Yama could maybe one shot them too.

Actually, it was you who said that. I mainly named two captains who are not known to be experts in Shinigami arts.

Originally Posted by Kay3795

Way to overrate a her.

I shouldn't answer to this because you were responding to yourself, but here it goes. I don't pull information out of nowhere. I use everything and only that which is shown. You are the one overrating Shunsui and Yamamoto and Bach and Ryuuken even though there's little to nothing shown about them to be as fast or faster than her. If you want to prove Yamamoto is indeed faster than her, you won't be able to, because the only instance where he used speed was against Ayon, and now he's dead.

Originally Posted by Kay3795

So you think Soifon could oneshot half the captains huh? Again way to overrate a character.

She can puncture twice with immense speed. And she's also quick and agile. So yes, I'm convinced she could two shot half of the captains. Overrating? No, I'm just going by the fact that she's the closest to Ichigo in Bankai against Byakuya, and that she also has Shunko to make her even faster.

Originally Posted by Kay3795

You implied Soifon could get half the captains with pure speed without them being able to react. What is to stop her from performing the samething she did against Barragan's fraccion? Because according to you she could easily blitz capable captains with her speed.

...That she is lawful so she wouldn't just murder fellow captains for the hell of it? Nothing really is stopping her other than that she's not a psychopath.

Originally Posted by Kay3795

You are overrating her & understimating other (capable captain lvl)

I have defended literally every captain, vice captain, Arrancar, Fullbring and other characters across multiple forums over the years and have read through every single fight at least 70 times for the older ones. I have a clear understanding of what every character is capable or incapable to do. And I know what she can do and what others can do. I don't underestimate or overestimate characters. Don't even accuse me of that again.

Originally Posted by Kay3795

by thinking Soifon could easily blitz them without them reacting (implying she blitz them a second time or perform what she did against Barragan's fraccion).

And so could Ichigo. I'm talking about one of THE fastest of the fastest.

Originally Posted by Kay3795

Too bad non is questioning that. Just questioning the extent in which she could blitz.

On the same extent Ichigo can blitz.

Originally Posted by Kay3795

The 5 RG's combined power is greater than Gotei 13. Yama is atleast 50% of the Gotei 13 (every captain relied on him far too much for that reason). & His bankai is so deadly it can destroy the entire SS (the entire SS not just seireitei). That's madness.

50%? I don't think so. Raw power is not the only relevant power. Aizen could place Yamamoto, the Royal Guard and the entire Soul Society and Hueco Mundo, the Human world and so on under Kyoka Suigetsu if he wanted to. In fact, he actually did half of it. Yet his power wouldn't kill them, because it's not destructive. That same applies to the Royal Guard and the rest of the captains. Their raw power may not be as high, but it may be more dangerous. If somebody's Bankai like Ukitake would channel something back at the attacker, that would make him able to take Yamamoto down.

Originally Posted by Kay3795

So you say but you are running away from a very simple question I pointed right at your face. Is Soifon's behavior acceptable. YES or NO? (this is what escalated this pointless debate to this extent in the first place).

It's ironic because you misinterpreted your sources again and now you are quoting me for it. You were talking about power but now somehow it's back to her behavior? But here's your answer: It is acceptable. Nowhere does it say that a captain must be an emotionless machine. She and everybody in that room had the right to be furious. She didn't use violence or mindless rage, she reprimanded them for their words.

Re: Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

I don't really want to interfere with the discussion, but I just would like to add that I do also think 50% is going overboard a bit here.
I have already made a more detailed analysis in another thread, so, if I had to simply put it here, Captain-Commander accounted 25%-30% of the Gotei 13's power.
There has been no evidence about Bankai Kyouraku and Bankai Ukitake's strength, but if we go by logic again, if they can hold their own Shikai vs Shikai, there is also no reason to think that they wouldn't be able to do it if they all went Bankai.
So, power-wise, three senior captains would surpass Captain-Commander, in my opinion. But, of course, power and destructive force aren't necessarily related, which means there is a good chance that the combined destructive force of the entire Gotei 13 is nothing when compared to Zanka no Tachi.

The results I have come to here, in terms of math:
Captain-Commander: 4.0
Royal Guards: 3.0-3.8 (roughly 3.4 on average)
Aizen: 3.0 (near low-level Royal Guard power)
Senior Captains: 2.0
Rest of the Captains: 1.0

Of course, we cannot basically say who would beat who by looking at these. In fact, it's always tough to measure the real strength because each character has a different skill-set. The powers we can perceive accurately in the easiest way belong to Komamura and Kenpachi, because their power is based on brute force, rather than anything else.
Judging by their durability, that battle would go on for quite a while if they didn't get interrupted during SS arc. I would say Bankai Komamura is pretty close to Kenpachi in terms of raw power. It's only his maniacal antics that make Kenpachi a more popular character. Therefore, Komamura is thrown into battles that he's doomed to lose (=

Re: Ranking of Captains

Well, Yama's Bankai is just too destructive. He would just evaporate most of his opponents in one-on-one or even two against one fight. So I do believe he would have taken if not all the Captains together in Bankai, but something close to it, since even Aizen was able to take down most of the Captains and Vaizards down, when most of them were in Shikai-Bankai. And Aizen was just using his basic skills, raw power and Reiatsu. The same Yama should be at least a bit stronger in terms of base powers and counting his Shikai and Bankai... he is just in another league. His Bankai can one-shot most of the opponents, thus I believe he would be able to take entire Gotei with it. Especially since he also has close to perfect defense with this Bankai as well.

Re: Ranking of Captains

Originally Posted by Jorge D. Dragon

Well, Yama's Bankai is just too destructive. He would just evaporate most of his opponents in one-on-one or even two against one fight. So I do believe he would have taken if not all the Captains together in Bankai, but something close to it, since even Aizen was able to take down most of the Captains and Vaizards down, when most of them were in Shikai-Bankai. And Aizen was just using his basic skills, raw power and Reiatsu. The same Yama should be at least a bit stronger in terms of base powers and counting his Shikai and Bankai... he is just in another league. His Bankai can one-shot most of the opponents, thus I believe he would be able to take entire Gotei with it. Especially since he also has close to perfect defense with this Bankai as well.

Yama in Bankia vs All of G13 I think he can kill more than half but he still wouldn't win imo. with Shinji's Shikia, Ukitake absorb and reflect shikia, Soifon's bankai, and the rest of them they can pull a win out not to mention we don't know of the strongest captains bankia yet to officially call this potential upset by Yama's extreme destruction....Aizen also had Hogyouku inside him already he was already more than twice a Shinigami and his ability is Haxx, they had no hope in winning.

Re: Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

Originally Posted by Hakuteiken

I don't really want to interfere with the discussion, but I just would like to add that I do also think 50% is going overboard a bit here.
I have already made a more detailed analysis in another thread, so, if I had to simply put it here, Captain-Commander accounted 25%-30% of the Gotei 13's power.
There has been no evidence about Bankai Kyouraku and Bankai Ukitake's strength, but if we go by logic again, if they can hold their own Shikai vs Shikai, there is also no reason to think that they wouldn't be able to do it if they all went Bankai.
So, power-wise, three senior captains would surpass Captain-Commander, in my opinion. But, of course, power and destructive force aren't necessarily related, which means there is a good chance that the combined destructive force of the entire Gotei 13 is nothing when compared to Zanka no Tachi.

The results I have come to here, in terms of math:
Captain-Commander: 4.0
Royal Guards: 3.0-3.8 (roughly 3.4 on average)
Aizen: 3.0 (near low-level Royal Guard power)
Senior Captains: 2.0
Rest of the Captains: 1.0

Of course, we cannot basically say who would beat who by looking at these. In fact, it's always tough to measure the real strength because each character has a different skill-set. The powers we can perceive accurately in the easiest way belong to Komamura and Kenpachi, because their power is based on brute force, rather than anything else.
Judging by their durability, that battle would go on for quite a while if they didn't get interrupted during SS arc. I would say Bankai Komamura is pretty close to Kenpachi in terms of raw power. It's only his maniacal antics that make Kenpachi a more popular character. Therefore, Komamura is thrown into battles that he's doomed to lose (=

Rankings or math don't apply in Bleach because this is not Dragonball Z.

Yamamoto simply can't be 4 times as powerful as a captain. His reiatsu can stun a captain and kill a normal vice captain, but that's it, nothing that is far from Ichigo, Byakuya or Kenpachi who are also gifted in the reiatsu department. And there are also limits to how much a Shinigami can grow. I can see him beating somebody else individually, or maybe up to two or three captains simultaneously, but not on four or more, not even with Zanka no Tachi, because fighting head on is not the only way to fight and strength is not the only type of power. Aizen, Gin, Tousen, Shunsui, Ukitake, Mayuri, Yumichika, all have abilities whose power is not strength. So if somebody like Ukitake had a Bankai that transformed any kind of energy into his own no matter how strong, Yamamoto would be royally fucking himself into the star role in a documentary about a gang bang rape victim by going Bankai. Power alone is not going to get him far. If he must be ranked, then Yamamoto > Captain.

The Royal Guard must all have special ability based powers too, so placing them above or below Yamamoto is pointless, but in terms of reiatsu and Shinigami arts mastery, they should be right at least at that level. More so if they have been imbued with that kick ass reijutsu they keep talking about. Same to them. RG > Captain.

Aizen was easily on Yamamoto's level, mastering all of the Shinigami arts, with reitasu powerful enough to stun a captain or to shoot Kido the size of a small town. He can also take on two captains simultaneously or beat over eight captain level fighters over time. Even if his Zanpakutou is not destructive, and it can't destroy the entire Soul Society, he can still place the entire Soul Society under his illusion. I can't see him below Yamamoto in any way. But again, I doubt he can take down everybody with power alone. Aizen > Captain.

And then this whole deal with the "Senior Captains". What makes them so special? Seriously? Why do you rank them as worth twice any other captain? Sure, they have more experienced, but the Gotei 13 is full of gifted people. And nothing says they are the closest to Yamamomto or Aizen in terms of reiatsu or skill. Somebody like Byakuya or Gin who were born with natural talent and high reiatsu are much younger and might have surpassed them already. The rest all have their talents too. But overall, the Seniors are still just among the standard level.

And then there's the vice captains to consider. Sasakibe was pretty strong for one, and so is Renji. And also most captains were seated officers at one time. Urahara was promoted from a 3rd seat, Gin was a 5th seat. The gap between seats and vice captain to captain is not massive as everybody believes. Seated officers, vice captain and captain ranks come and go all the time, and they are not even ranked by power. A captain can designate whoever they want to work on whatever position they want, and a Shinigami can choose to accept any spot they want too. Sasakibe, Yumichika, Ikkaku, Renji, Tousen, Gin and Aizen are all examples of this. That you are not even consider people that in 100 years or less could be captains is like an insult.

Overall, the Royal Guard's combined strength surpassing the entire Gotei's 13 simply means they have powers as broken as Aizen's.

Re: Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

Originally Posted by Torran

Yamamoto simply can't be 4 times as powerful as a captain. His reiatsu can stun a captain and kill a normal vice captain, but that's it, nothing that is far from Ichigo, Byakuya or Kenpachi who are also gifted in the reiatsu department. And there are also limits to how much a Shinigami can grow. I can see him beating somebody else individually, or maybe up to two or three captains simultaneously, but not on four or more, not even with Zanka no Tachi, because fighting head on is not the only way to fight and strength is not the only type of power. Aizen, Gin, Tousen, Shunsui, Ukitake, Mayuri, Yumichika, all have abilities whose power is not strength. So if somebody like Ukitake had a Bankai that transformed any kind of energy into his own no matter how strong, Yamamoto would be royally fucking himself into the star role in a documentary about a gang bang rape victim by going Bankai. Power alone is not going to get him far. If he must be ranked, then Yamamoto > Captain.

Considering Ichigo had twice the reiatsu of a regular captain in HM arc, why do we have to think Captain-Commander can't have 4x? Also, this math wasn't related to reiatsu, either.
Based on what else can we rank captains? Surely not based on certain abilities or intellect, which would make Mayuri the 1# ranked captain. When we say the ranking of the captains, we are exactly referring to the power levels.
Saying that basing it on power levels is pointless is quite trivial. Of course, comparing different characters is pointless. We can just carry it out for a while and make a general picture. We can't say X will wipe the floor with Y, etc.

Originally Posted by Torran

The Royal Guard must all have special ability based powers too, so placing them above or below Yamamoto is pointless, but in terms of reiatsu and Shinigami arts mastery, they should be right at least at that level. More so if they have been imbued with that kick ass reijutsu they keep talking about. Same to them. RG > Captain.

Reijutsu may play a role, I said something about that in the discussion thread, too.

Originally Posted by Torran

Aizen was easily on Yamamoto's level, mastering all of the Shinigami arts, with reitasu powerful enough to stun a captain or to shoot Kido the size of a small town. He can also take on two captains simultaneously or beat over eight captain level fighters over time. Even if his Zanpakutou is not destructive, and it can't destroy the entire Soul Society, he can still place the entire Soul Society under his illusion. I can't see him below Yamamoto in any way. But again, I doubt he can take down everybody with power alone. Aizen > Captain.

He was below Captain-Commander's level. He admitted he was below him in combat abilities and used Wonderweiss to take him out by his intellect. I'm not suggesting he would die at an instant if he fought him himself, but he wasn't going to defeat him like that, either. Plus, Captain-Commander could have gone to the extreme point of blowing up the entire are had Wonderweiss not interfered.
Tough one, but I'll take Aizen's word.

Originally Posted by Torran

And then this whole deal with the "Senior Captains". What makes them so special? Seriously? Why do you rank them as worth twice any other captain? Sure, they have more experienced, but the Gotei 13 is full of gifted people. And nothing says they are the closest to Yamamomto or Aizen in terms of reiatsu or skill. Somebody like Byakuya or Gin who were born with natural talent and high reiatsu are much younger and might have surpassed them already. The rest all have their talents too. But overall, the Seniors are still just among the standard level.

1,000 years as head of Gotei 13, and Captain-Commander tells them their skills are unparalleled. I don't know if we need anything else.
Secondly, there isn't any telling how naturally talented Byakuya was. The respective geniuses of their generations were Kaien, Gin and Hitsugaya. And Kyouraku told Starkk that Hitsugaya would probably surpass him in a century's time, indicating he was still the more powerful one at that time.

Originally Posted by Torran

And then there's the vice captains to consider. Sasakibe was pretty strong for one, and so is Renji. And also most captains were seated officers at one time. Urahara was promoted from a 3rd seat, Gin was a 5th seat. The gap between seats and vice captain to captain is not massive as everybody believes. Seated officers, vice captain and captain ranks come and go all the time, and they are not even ranked by power. A captain can designate whoever they want to work on whatever position they want, and a Shinigami can choose to accept any spot they want too. Sasakibe, Yumichika, Ikkaku, Renji, Tousen, Gin and Aizen are all examples of this. That you are not even consider people that in 100 years or less could be captains is like an insult.

Overall, the Royal Guard's combined strength surpassing the entire Gotei's 13 simply means they have powers as broken as Aizen's.

I don't really consider Sasakibe as a vice-captain. In his funeral speech, Byakuya referred to him as a man meant to become a Captain. If it wasn't for his loyalty to Captain-Commander, he would have been one of the most experienced captains out there.
Renji? Strong for a vice-captain, cannot yet be considered captain material. same goes for Yumichika and Ikkaku, too. There isn't any telling about them being close enough to a captain.
If I were to included him in the list, Urahara wouldn't be so highly placed, either. I'm still not convinced he can defeat someone like Byakuya in a one-on-one battle. It seems like a stalemate to me.
The reason I'm not even considering them is exactly what you said. They aren't going to become captain in the foreseeable future. They aren't there. They aren't anywhere that level.
As optimistic as one may be, there isn't anything suggesting in the manga that a vice-captain can be anywhere near the captain in terms of power.

I see no reason to argue, though.
This is a matter of perception, after all.

Re: Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

Originally Posted by Hakuteiken

Considering Ichigo had twice the reiatsu of a regular captain in HM arc, why do we have to think Captain-Commander can't have 4x?

Because 4x is just absurd. "Captain level reiatsu" is already very strong, and "2x Captain level reiatsu" is pushing the limits. Yamamoto's flames are visibly strong but because he burns his own reiatsu into high attack power, like Ichigo with his Getsuga Tenshou. Other captains are also very powerful even if they don't create fire tornadoes just for show. Aizen also has monstrous reiatsu and yet he never used unnecessary strong attacks.

Originally Posted by Hakuteiken

Based on what else can we rank captains? Surely not based on certain abilities or intellect, which would make Mayuri the 1# ranked captain. When we say the ranking of the captains, we are exactly referring to the power levels.

You can't. At best you can just make yet another "X vs. Y" thread, although most of those are pointless are one of the choices would win with the given conditions.

Originally Posted by Hakuteiken

He was below Captain-Commander's level. He admitted he was below him in combat abilities and used Wonderweiss to take him out by his intellect. I'm not suggesting he would die at an instant if he fought him himself, but he wasn't going to defeat him like that, either. Plus, Captain-Commander could have gone to the extreme point of blowing up the entire are had Wonderweiss not interfered.
Tough one, but I'll take Aizen's word.

"Your Ryuujin Jakka is the most powerful Zanpakutou, that goes without question. If we were to fight, its strength would outweigh my own". Aizen's Zanpakutou's ability is used to deceive, not to fight. In terms of skill, reiatsu and strength, Aizen was at Yamamoto's level.

Originally Posted by Hakuteiken

1,000 years as head of Gotei 13, and Captain-Commander tells them their skills are unparalleled. I don't know if we need anything else.

He said they were talented and that their powers were unparalleled (obviously wrong), and that he had trained them to become undefeatable (also wrong). He was complimenting his star pupils, it wasn't something to be taken word by word.

Originally Posted by Hakuteiken

Secondly, there isn't any telling how naturally talented Byakuya was.

There's telling that he's skilled, and that he's powerful.

Originally Posted by Hakuteiken

And Kyouraku told Starkk that Hitsugaya would probably surpass him in a century's time, indicating he was still the more powerful one at that time.

Hitsugaya is only a child who has been a captain for a few years. Byakuya has been a captain for over 50 years and before that he was always training hard. Same for Gin. Hitsugaya needs 100 years, the others already had over 100 years.

Originally Posted by Hakuteiken

Renji? Strong for a vice-captain, cannot yet be considered captain material. same goes for Yumichika and Ikkaku, too. There isn't any telling about them being close enough to a captain.

Ikkaku is not really far behind, and he was the one to mentor Renji in the first place. Yumichika is one of those people with broken abilities.

But okay, Renji is still a few decades behind Byakuya. And any other vice captain should lose against a captain head on. Yet, I don't get why everybody thinks a captain is 10x or even 100x stronger than a vice captain. The difference is not as big as everybody thinks it is.

Originally Posted by Hakuteiken

The reason I'm not even considering them is exactly what you said. They aren't going to become captain in the foreseeable future. They aren't there. They aren't anywhere that level.

Yes they are anywhere near that level. All it takes is a Bankai and to master it. Captains come and go every few years, which means there is always somebody to replace them. If what Byakuya said about Bankai taking at least a decade to achieve and another to master, then Renji is 10 years away and the rest of the vice captains are 20. Even the youngest vice captains are over 50 years and have already scaled to second in command, which is the same pace as those seen during/after TbTP. 20 years is foreseeable.

Originally Posted by Hakuteiken

As optimistic as one may be, there isn't anything suggesting in the manga that a vice-captain can be anywhere near the captain in terms of power.

Actually, there's nothing that suggests a captain is that far beyond. Also, the standard for power moved from vice captain to captain in about 2 days manga time,

Re: Is Yamamoto Weaker than the Royal Guards?

Originally Posted by Torran

Because 4x is just absurd. "Captain level reiatsu" is already very strong, and "2x Captain level reiatsu" is pushing the limits. Yamamoto's flames are visibly strong but because he burns his own reiatsu into high attack power, like Ichigo with his Getsuga Tenshou. Other captains are also very powerful even if they don't create fire tornadoes just for show. Aizen also has monstrous reiatsu and yet he never used unnecessary strong attacks.

Fair enough. As I said, I didn't base anything on the reiatsu levels when I said 4x, anyway.

Originally Posted by Torran

"Your Ryuujin Jakka is the most powerful Zanpakutou, that goes without question. If we were to fight, its strength would outweigh my own". Aizen's Zanpakutou's ability is used to deceive, not to fight. In terms of skill, reiatsu and strength, Aizen was at Yamamoto's level.

If he had Captain-Commander level strength, he would have used his katana to slash and kill off him after deceiving with Kyouka Suigetsu. Captain-Commander himself pointed out that it would be naive of Aizen to think that he would be on par with him after sealing away the flames. That's why he didn't, and he was waiting for the explosion of Wonderweiss.

Originally Posted by Torran

He said they were talented and that their powers were unparalleled (obviously wrong), and that he had trained them to become undefeatable (also wrong). He was complimenting his star pupils, it wasn't something to be taken word by word.

I don't know what else to look for, apart from what's provided in manga.

Originally Posted by Torran

There's telling that he's skilled, and that he's powerful.

Every captain is skilled, and powerful. That has got nothing to do with natural talent. There is a thread about natural talent concept. I have posted a few times there about this matter.

Originally Posted by Torran

Hitsugaya is only a child who has been a captain for a few years. Byakuya has been a captain for over 50 years and before that he was always training hard. Same for Gin. Hitsugaya needs 100 years, the others already had over 100 years.

100 years ago, Byakuya and Gin were little kids. Like Kyouraku and Ukitake was, centuries ago. Compared to them, they are still little children.
Like Royal Squad calling SS captains fledglings.

Ikkaku is not really far behind, and he was the one to mentor Renji in the first place. Yumichika is one of those people with broken abilities.

But okay, Renji is still a few decades behind Byakuya. And any other vice captain should lose against a captain head on. Yet, I don't get why everybody thinks a captain is 10x or even 100x stronger than a vice captain. The difference is not as big as everybody thinks it is.

I don't think a captain is 100x strong as a vice-captain. I'm adding a factor of 2.0 for the remaining SS power and that's mostly accounted for those strong VC (Renji, Hisagi) and seated officers (Ikkaku, Yumichika). Lets assume there are ten of those characters, relevant in terms of power, take 1.5 out of that 2.0 factor, which makes them roughly 0.15 on average.
So, this makes a captain around 6x-7x vice-captain power.
Not that you have to agree with this or something, but it's a lot more plausible than 100x (Don't know who suggested 100x, though).

Originally Posted by Torran

Yes they are anywhere near that level. All it takes is a Bankai and to master it. Captains come and go every few years, which means there is always somebody to replace them. If what Byakuya said about Bankai taking at least a decade to achieve and another to master, then Renji is 10 years away and the rest of the vice captains are 20. Even the youngest vice captains are over 50 years and have already scaled to second in command, which is the same pace as those seen during/after TbTP. 20 years is foreseeable.

By foreseeable future, I'm referring to the manga time. We aren't going to see them become clearly that strong. I'm not saying they will never reach it. 20 years is quite a long time, if you look by the manga's time perspective.

Originally Posted by Torran

Actually, there's nothing that suggests a captain is that far beyond. Also, the standard for power moved from vice captain to captain in about 2 days manga time,

Byakuya said it takes around 10 years to master the Bankai's control, so, they are far beyond compared to captain class Shinigami, who have mastered it for many years and had the chance to improve it even further.
If Captain-Commander is capable of improving his Bankai as a grown up, so should the other captains be able to.
In about two days? Ichigo's case this one?

Re: Ranking of Captains

@Torran

Yamamoto's reiatsu can kill a VC ? Where did you even see that ? Yamamoto's reiatsu simply was too strong for Nanao to handle, in no way it would've killed her... The pressure was too much for her, there's no way a VC would die from reiatsu's pressure alone, no matter who the character is, be it Godizen... Because they have a decent amount of reiatsu unlike normal souls and weakass Hollows

Re: Ranking of Captains

^ Nanao nearly fainted before Kyouraku took her away, I agree she wouldn't have died but surely she would have been incapacitated for a while.

You really have no right or wrong answer when it comes to "Ranking Captains", it's all subjective. Mayuri, Komamura and Soi Fon are usually considered the weakest among them all Imo though. Which is ludicrous.

Mayuri vastly inferior to the others according to the majority. I think not, a hax Zanpakutou + Genius intellect = Very Dangerous.

Komamura is always being downplayed, without notice worth do people consider the level of his opponents and competition. Aizen, Tousen, and Kenpachi. That Fraccion isn't even worth mention. I've also seen no evidence of him losing to Bambietta too.

Soi Fon continuously gets degraded for whatever reason, if there is any. Similar to Komamura, her opponents were nothing to laugh at either. also, it just so happens that she most of the time have to face people equally as fast as her if not faster, to go along with godly like abilities.(Barragan) I don't know about anyone else but Imo this was Kubo's excuse to neutralize Soi Fon's combat effectiveness. Similar to Byakuya vs Zommari. Latest Chapters also show that she was one of the few Captains without injuries.

Re: Ranking of Captains

Originally Posted by Crystal Black

Komamura is always being downplayed, without notice worth do people consider the level of his opponents and competition. Aizen, Tousen, and Kenpachi. That Fraccion isn't even worth mention. I've also seen no evidence of him losing to Bambietta too.

Tousen is and was fodder, pretty much.Only reason he was with Aizen was that he's blind. Kenpachi without going all out could almost kill him, tanked his Bankai attack like it was nothing and overpowered him with ease. During battle with Bambietta, she stated that Komamura was on verge of death. And he isn't strong without his bankai, so he IS weak. He is in his own class.

Re: Ranking of Captains

Originally Posted by Duniak

Tousen is and was fodder, pretty much.Only reason he was with Aizen was that he's blind. Kenpachi without going all out could almost kill him, tanked his Bankai attack like it was nothing and overpowered him with ease. During battle with Bambietta, she stated that Komamura was on verge of death. And he isn't strong without his bankai, so he IS weak. He is in his own class.

Tousen was far from fodder during his battle with Komamura. I'd hardly call him fodder during the fight with Kenpachi, for that matter. He certainly wasn't as strong as Kenpachi, but his Bankai wasn't the type to increase power. He missed his chance to take Kenpachi down because he was foolishly trying to "teach him a lesson", which was just a waste of time, but against anyone without Kenpachi's tanking ability and near-insanity Tousen's Bankai would actually be quite dangerous. Unless the opponent has a powerful area-of-effect power, anyway. Incidentally, it was Komamura who tanked a blow from Kenpachi during that fight.

True, he had armour on, but Kenpachi's sword cut through that, yet didn't cut Komamura's flesh underneath. Also, when Bambietta said he was on the verge of death, it was right after he'd stood up and demonstrated that he still had plenty of fight left - enough that she failed to kill him in all the time it took before the Vandenreich retreated.

It's true that he does overuse his Bankai, but he's still strong without it. Remember when he flipped Baraggan's giant whale Fraccion over by the arm with his bare hands? Komamura's physical strength is massive, second only to Kenpachi's (and the fact that Kenpachi's is superior is highly debatable). I don't think Komamura gets nearly the credit he deserves, but then again how could he when his opponents have been Aizen, Resureccion Tousen, and Aizen again? We've only seen his Bankai really used against 3 people (that I can recall): Poww (who he killed with ease), Tousen (who beat him with ease) and Aizen (who beat him with ease). But given that the two who beat him were above Captain-class, it's hardly fair to call him weak because of those examples.

Re: Ranking of Captains

Originally Posted by NoOneInParticular

True, he had armour on, but Kenpachi's sword cut through that, yet didn't cut Komamura's flesh underneath. Also, when Bambietta said he was on the verge of death, it was right after he'd stood up and demonstrated that he still had plenty of fight left - enough that she failed to kill him in all the time it took before the Vandenreich retreated.

I don't think Bambietta was referring to Komamura in person when she said those words. I suppose he was talking to all 7th Squad people Komamura used his words to get back up on feet. Komamura in person wasn't that seriously injured. Or even if he was, he has been portrayed as a durable character, as he usually found power of will in his him to stand up.

Feats certainly provide info, but they aren't enough on their own. Based on feat, Byakuya would rank miles ahead of Gin, whose sole success was getting the upper hand against Hitsugaya in which he half-heartedly fought. In reality, Gin would rank higher than Byakuya based on my perception of their respective abilities.
What I'm trying to say is even giving evidence from manga to prove a point isn't going to make it any more plausible, when some characters are severely under-utilized and others are heavily used.