If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You may have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Re: Breaking Bad Season 4 Premiere Sun 10pm AMC (Spoilers!)

Originally Posted by 757690

First, let's define plot holes. Plot holes are simply plot points which seem unbelievable to the viewer. Every show has them. They don't necessarily ruin a show, it depends on how big the plot shows are and how good the rest of the show is. It also varies from viewer to viewer.

If a show is engaging and has great characters and dialogue, most viewers will ignore plot holes, no matter how big. The less engaging the show, the more annoying the plot holes become.

On Breaking Bad, the plot holes that are annoying for me, are when certain characters, who up until then, have been extremely smart and careful, do something incredibly stupid, and out of character, which results in a major, essential plot point.

Most obvious one, and there are many other examples, is Mike's death. Mike was the most careful and most experienced criminal of all the characters on the show. But he completely let his guard down, and did something incredibly stupid (meet Walt alone in a secluded area, plus not checking the bag he received from Walt at first), that resulted in his death, an essential plot point.

This was so out of character for Mike, that the actor playing him had a hard time finding the motivation for that scene. He said that even he couldn't make himself believe that Mike was that careless, so the only way he could find the proper motivation for the scene was to assume that Mike was committing suicide.

For me, that was a very big plot hole, that made me go, "Come on!" and want to throw something at the screen. But I think most people let it go, because they wanted to let it go. The show has been so engaging, and the characters so rich, that it was easy to ignore.

I don't get that at all. Mike was desperate. He couldn't be careful. He had to get out of town as quick and easily as possible. There was nothing unbelievable nor impossible with what happened there. For that matter, Walt just bailed Mike out by tipping him off the feds were coming for him. It's not a stretch to think Mike didn't view Walt as a threat at that moment in time.

This show actually has been extremely realistic in that it's always the smallest, most harmless details that wind up catching hardened criminal minds. It's always the thing you expect the least that comes back to haunt. That's very realistic, actually.

On the contrary, I'm actually very picky when it comes to shows. Clumsy details that are ignored drive me nuts. Breaking Bad is ten times better at these details than most all other shows on television. That's precisely why I like it. It's not that I try to ignore those things. It simply doesn't have those moments like other shows do.

I've been a writer for 10 years. I've wanted to get into screenwriting, like you already are. And this show is the kind of writing I aspire to write because it's pinpoint on those things.

I saw a critic the other day that said this show has a "brutal honesty" about its storytelling. I find that to be absolutely true. Unlike most dramas where they suspend reality to bail out characters, this show really doesn't. In real life, most of the bad guys are eventually caught; even the ones that are great at covering their trails, eventually slip up in the smallest way. This show has been pretty on-point with that kind of storytelling.

Last edited by Brutus; 09-18-2013 at 05:05 PM.

"No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

Likes:

Re: Breaking Bad Season 4 Premiere Sun 10pm AMC (Spoilers!)

Originally Posted by 757690

First, let's define plot holes. Plot holes are simply plot points which seem unbelievable to the viewer. Every show has them. They don't necessarily ruin a show, it depends on how big the plot shows are and how good the rest of the show is. It also varies from viewer to viewer.

If a show is engaging and has great characters and dialogue, most viewers will ignore plot holes, no matter how big. The less engaging the show, the more annoying the plot holes become.

On Breaking Bad, the plot holes that are annoying for me, are when certain characters, who up until then, have been extremely smart and careful, do something incredibly stupid, and out of character, which results in a major, essential plot point.

Most obvious one, and there are many other examples, is Mike's death. Mike was the most careful and most experienced criminal of all the characters on the show. But he completely let his guard down, and did something incredibly stupid (meet Walt alone in a secluded area, plus not checking the bag he received from Walt at first), that resulted in his death, an essential plot point.

This was so out of character for Mike, that the actor playing him had a hard time finding the motivation for that scene. He said that even he couldn't make himself believe that Mike was that careless, so the only way he could find the proper motivation for the scene was to assume that Mike was committing suicide.

For me, that was a very big plot hole, that made me go, "Come on!" and want to throw something at the screen. But I think most people let it go, because they wanted to let it go. The show has been so engaging, and the characters so rich, that it was easy to ignore.

Breaking Bad has an extremely complicated and intricate plotline. You can poke holes at almost anything that happens throughout the story. I listen to a couple of BrBa podcasts, and on a weekly basis they analyze scene after scene as to how realistic they think it is, what they think that person would have done, etc. It often comes down to the fact that these characters are "humans." I use quotes because obviously they aren't real people, but the show is about humans. They're not robots. People poked at "Walt would never be so dumb as to leave that book on top of the toilet", when in fact, Walt was careless all over the place, and an extreme amateur. Everyone will have their problems with certain pieces.

Personally, I hated Gus walking out of the room and straightening his tie before they showed his face was half blown off. But the important part was the fact that Gus' hubris and ego was what led him to that hospital, and caused his downfall, a common theme for this show.

As Larry pointed out, what were Mike's options at that point? As professional as Mike was, he's not a robot. He made mistakes all the way through the series! Got his money taken by the feds, wrongly thought Lydia was the one planting the tracker on the meth barrels, was ready to murder Lydia for the wrong reasons, etc. (that's all I can think of off the top of my head). In his line of work, you're bound to make a mistake that costs you your life.

Of course there are some items about this show that are somewhat unrealistic. It's still a television show. But I've never seen a show pay so much attention to detail, while having such a complicated plot. The last thing I would accuse BrBa of is plot holes. I can't recall a show that has worked so hard to avoid plot holes.

Likes:

Re: Breaking Bad Season 4 Premiere Sun 10pm AMC (Spoilers!)

Originally Posted by Brutus

Although I'm sure there will be clarity on this after the last two episodes air, I'm a little confused on the timing of all this.

We know Walt says he has "work to do" and that he goes off with his new identity. Although we can't be sure, we're led to believe he leaves for New Hampshire the next day. We also know from flash forwards that he doesn't come back until after his 52nd birthday, which I believe is still another 4-6 months off in the distance.

So that leads me to a couple of questions:

1. Is he deliberately waiting to get back at the Aryans until after he can stage a fake death and get the heat off him or will it be something else that causes him to come back for retribution (i.e. Marie and his family being killed when the Aryans are coming back to get all the evidence Hank had during the investigation)?

2. Assuming something happens to the rest of his family which is what prompts him to come back, I'm not sure why he would wait 4-6 months to come back. And if he does, will Jesse be a prisoner for that long?

I think we all get the gist of some of the things that could happen from here, but the timing is a bit fuzzy for me.

A guy creates a new identity, that doesn't necessarily mean he is going where his ID says he is from.

I don't know what kind of information the DEA would have on the Aryans. The only thing shown was Hank using Jessie in order to get Walt. Marie knew this but no one else did. Without Hank, Gomez, or Jessie there really isn't much evidence out there that could point the DEA to the Aryans. It actually ended up being Hank's fatal flaw. He wanted so badly to bring Walt in, not only to cover his own ass, but to get Heizenberg. He did it on his own only bring along his partner. When push came to shove they were alone in a remote part of the desert without any backup. The only people who know where Hank and Gomez are would be the Aryans, Jessie, and Walt. Do they go after Walt by using his family? Or are they content to disappear with $70M?

To be honest I really don't have a clue how they are going to wrap everything. At some point they have to explain two things. The first one is his birthday breakfast with the ID as well as all the guns. The second one is why he went back into his ramshackled house to get the ricin.

What I want to see is what does Walt do to the Aryans and what happens with a Walt and Jessie showdown? That has to happen doesn't it? Also will Walt be able to get his money to his family? That was the ultimate endgame wasn't it? His son may hate him, but Skylar seemed to accept her role in what happened.

Re: Breaking Bad Season 4 Premiere Sun 10pm AMC (Spoilers!)

Re: Breaking Bad Season 4 Premiere Sun 10pm AMC (Spoilers!)

Originally Posted by Brutus

I don't get that at all. Mike was desperate. He couldn't be careful. He had to get out of town as quick and easily as possible. There was nothing unbelievable nor impossible with what happened there. For that matter, Walt just bailed Mike out by tipping him off the feds were coming for him. It's not a stretch to think Mike didn't view Walt as a threat at that moment in time.

The way to spin this is that Mike hated Walt. Walt really got under his skin. He also knew he could kick Walt's ass if push came to shove. He's probably also upset that Walt talked him into the partnership. Not to mention he just left his granddaughter in the park so he could lam it. You could say Mike wasn't thinking straight. He made the fatal error of underestimating Walt. Walt wasn't thinking straight either since he realized after shooting Mike that he could have got the names from Lydia.

The whole show is one big contrivance. But they make the show entertaining. I saw an article the other day that it's impossible to make blue meth. I saw an episode of Mythbusters that debunked some of the things on the show; mainly that you can't completely dissolve a body in acid like they do. It doesn't make the show any less entertaining though. There's probably no way Gus could have survived the bomb in Tio's room long enough to get up, walk out the door and straighten his tie. But it was pretty cool to see that.

Re: Breaking Bad Season 4 Premiere Sun 10pm AMC (Spoilers!)

It isn't just that certain things are forgiven because of entertainment value or that certain things are "unrealistic". It's whether things make sense within the framework a show has created. Breaking Bad is highly stylized. It is not meant to be realistic. It is meant to create a story that is followable and believable *within its own context*. I think it's been incredibly successful in that. The plot can be convoluted, more so than I think it would have been before the advent of DVR and DVD (Gilligan knows that people can revisit and often watch seasons in quick succession). But I think the very thing that's held it together is the consistency of character and motives. It set up that framework very well early on and has held to it.

Mike allowing Walt to bring him his bag is not a plot hole, not even by definition. It's not even a plot inconsistency no matter how realistic one thinks it is as pertaining to Mike's motives. A plot hole would have been if Walt showed up with the bag when a previous scene showed him locked in a barrel with no way of getting out. Mike's going along with that is arguable from a character standpoint, but my sense is that he was beaten down enough by that point that he felt that he didn't have a choice. That murder was also out of character for Walt to that point: it was the first he committed out of revenge and anger rather than strictly cover-up. Mike knew Walt was careless, but there wasn't necessarily precedent for him killing out of spite.

Likes:

Re: Breaking Bad Season 4 Premiere Sun 10pm AMC (Spoilers!)

Originally Posted by Chip R

The way to spin this is that Mike hated Walt. Walt really got under his skin. He also knew he could kick Walt's ass if push came to shove. He's probably also upset that Walt talked him into the partnership. Not to mention he just left his granddaughter in the park so he could lam it. You could say Mike wasn't thinking straight. He made the fatal error of underestimating Walt. Walt wasn't thinking straight either since he realized after shooting Mike that he could have got the names from Lydia.

The whole show is one big contrivance. But they make the show entertaining. I saw an article the other day that it's impossible to make blue meth. I saw an episode of Mythbusters that debunked some of the things on the show; mainly that you can't completely dissolve a body in acid like they do. It doesn't make the show any less entertaining though. There's probably no way Gus could have survived the bomb in Tio's room long enough to get up, walk out the door and straighten his tie. But it was pretty cool to see that.

I agree it's hard for any good drama not to be a little contrived at times. And certainly Breaking Bad, like any good action/drama, pushes the boundaries. Shows like Mad Men, well written as they are, simply don't appeal to a wide audience, so for popularity sake they have to push the boundaries a bit.

BTW as far as the meth is concerned, there actually has been blue meth put out before. It's not impossible. It would be physically impossible for 100% pure meth to be blue, but Walt's meth has never been 100% (I believe it was said his was 99% "pure").

Something to keep in mind is that Breaking Bad actually hired some chemists to help them through the process and make sure their meth cooking was realistic. They didn't just come up with this out of the blue (no pun intended). What they're doing is not impossible.

Edit: here's a good article from a few days ago that speaks with one of the advisers. She said the 'blue' color was a little 'exaggerated' but insinuates having a blue tint isn't unrealistic. She notes only that the "blue was a little too blue."

"No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

Re: Breaking Bad Season 4 Premiere Sun 10pm AMC (Spoilers!)

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

A guy creates a new identity, that doesn't necessarily mean he is going where his ID says he is from.

I don't know what kind of information the DEA would have on the Aryans. The only thing shown was Hank using Jessie in order to get Walt. Marie knew this but no one else did. Without Hank, Gomez, or Jessie there really isn't much evidence out there that could point the DEA to the Aryans. It actually ended up being Hank's fatal flaw. He wanted so badly to bring Walt in, not only to cover his own ass, but to get Heizenberg. He did it on his own only bring along his partner. When push came to shove they were alone in a remote part of the desert without any backup. The only people who know where Hank and Gomez are would be the Aryans, Jessie, and Walt. Do they go after Walt by using his family? Or are they content to disappear with $70M?

To be honest I really don't have a clue how they are going to wrap everything. At some point they have to explain two things. The first one is his birthday breakfast with the ID as well as all the guns. The second one is why he went back into his ramshackled house to get the ricin.

What I want to see is what does Walt do to the Aryans and what happens with a Walt and Jessie showdown? That has to happen doesn't it? Also will Walt be able to get his money to his family? That was the ultimate endgame wasn't it? His son may hate him, but Skylar seemed to accept her role in what happened.

Good point. I didn't consider he might not actually leave town.

"No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

Re: Breaking Bad Season 4 Premiere Sun 10pm AMC (Spoilers!)

Originally Posted by Chip R

The way to spin this is that Mike hated Walt. Walt really got under his skin. He also knew he could kick Walt's ass if push came to shove. He's probably also upset that Walt talked him into the partnership. Not to mention he just left his granddaughter in the park so he could lam it. You could say Mike wasn't thinking straight. He made the fatal error of underestimating Walt. Walt wasn't thinking straight either since he realized after shooting Mike that he could have got the names from Lydia.

The whole show is one big contrivance. But they make the show entertaining. I saw an article the other day that it's impossible to make blue meth. I saw an episode of Mythbusters that debunked some of the things on the show; mainly that you can't completely dissolve a body in acid like they do. It doesn't make the show any less entertaining though. There's probably no way Gus could have survived the bomb in Tio's room long enough to get up, walk out the door and straighten his tie. But it was pretty cool to see that.

Regarding the bomb thing with Gus, I read from multiple sources that its not that unusual for explosion victims to survive for minute or two and have reactions you might not expect similar to Gus, due to the shock.

They don't think it be like it is, but it do.

Originally Posted by Larry Schuler

He has also taught me that even when the Reds win it is important to focus on the fact that they could have lost.

Likes:

Re: Breaking Bad Season 4 Premiere Sun 10pm AMC (Spoilers!)

Originally Posted by Wonderful Monds

Regarding the bomb thing with Gus, I read from multiple sources that its not that unusual for explosion victims to survive for minute or two and have reactions you might not expect similar to Gus, due to the shock.

That may be true, but I felt like that was clearly a style/character choice. And I loved it. For that split second you got that reminder of how utterly in control Gus always is, how he was the one guy Walt was never going to beat. Then: bam. It was the button on the scene, so to speak. Sure, Gus could have been immediately struck dead in the nursing home room, and he would have been dead just the same, making no difference to the plot. but you lose that dramatic effect, not only in that moment, but the overwhelming, overarching sense of the shift of power king from Gus to Walt. Which VASTLY affected Walt's character development and the choices he made from that point forward. That moment of his walking out was a split-second encapsulation of how difficult it was for Walt to kill him and how much it meant.

That's phenomenal storytelling. I don't care in a case like that whether it could happen in real life or not. I can see real life on the street. I watch TV for constructed, deliberate style and character choices.

Re: Breaking Bad Season 4 Premiere Sun 10pm AMC (Spoilers!)

The Breaking Bad writers ask "can this be done" before everything they do. They don't ask if it's "likely to be done."

All they try for is plausibility. After that, they aim for consistency. You'd be hard pressed to find any successful drama that constantly gets those two things done as effectively as BrBa.

"No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

Re: Breaking Bad Season 4 Premiere Sun 10pm AMC (Spoilers!)

Re: Breaking Bad Season 4 Premiere Sun 10pm AMC (Spoilers!)

without quoting everyone, I just have to say that I agree with most of the replies to my post. Breaking Bad is easily the best written show in the history of television, a distance second to The Wire. The first three seasons were nearly perfect. I just think that in the last three seasons, the writers were forced to include some plot points that were hard for me to believe. I still enjoyed the show because everything else was done so well, but there definitely were some cracks in the armor in the last few seasons.

Re: Breaking Bad Season 4 Premiere Sun 10pm AMC (Spoilers!)

The only potential looseends I see is this:

Saul said that with the washer if you screw up with him once , your done. Walt has already left the guy hanging in the episode "Crawlspace" because Skylar gave Walt's money to Ted. We see Walt get in the van last episode.

Saul also says once you go, you cant come back but we see Walt doing it in the flashback opening of Season 5.

Re: Breaking Bad Season 4 Premiere Sun 10pm AMC (Spoilers!)

Originally Posted by 19braves77

The only potential looseends I see is this:

Saul said that with the washer if you screw up with him once , your done. Walt has already left the guy hanging in the episode "Crawlspace" because Skylar gave Walt's money to Ted. We see Walt get in the van last episode.

Saul also says once you go, you cant come back but we see Walt doing it in the flashback opening of Season 5.

I wonder if these will be addressed in the next two episodes ?

Walt never called the guy the first time. Remember Saul told Walt "you have to be packed and ready to go before you make that call."

Walt was going back to pack and get the money before he called him. Since the money was gone, he never had made the call.

As far as coming back, Saul's point was that if you want it to be effective, you can't come back. It's still ultimately Walt's choice to come back if he wants to risk it.

"No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda

Board Moderators may, at their discretion and judgment, delete and/or edit any messages that violate any of the following guidelines: 1. Explicit references to alleged illegal or unlawful acts. 2. Graphic sexual descriptions. 3. Racial or ethnic slurs. 4. Use of edgy language (including masked profanity). 5. Direct personal attacks, flames, fights, trolling, baiting, name-calling, general nuisance, excessive player criticism or anything along those lines. 6. Posting spam. 7. Each person may have only one user account. It is fine to be critical here - that's what this board is for. But let's not beat a subject or a player to death, please.

Thank you, and most
importantly, enjoy yourselves!

RedsZone.com is a privately owned website and is not affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds or Major League Baseball