Gyrfalcon:1. It happened exactly like the kid said: The cops showed up and ordered a bunch of 11-year olds into a felony-prone position. Then they "walked the kid home," and handed him over to his parents. Cops assume kid is so terrified he won't say anything about their abuse of power.

Considering all the many, many, many, many, many other "isolated incidents" (um, exactly how many incidents does it take before they are no longer 'isolated'??) where cops have abused their authority, I'd say this is a likely scenario.

For instance, there was a cop who drew a gun at a snowfall fight."However the Assistant Chief Peter Newsham said "There was NO police pulling guns on snowball people.""- LIE.

...this couple simply wanted to get into their driveway and expressed their discontent with the police, who happened to be blocking their driveway.And here he is throwing away a phone of a witness:His punishment? Administrative leave, then right back on the streets.

There's a LOT of "isolated incidents" out there. Try looking at https://www.facebook.com/CopBlock , for instance.

I call BS. I grew up 10 years of my life in Henry County. I seriously doubt this happened. I can put monopoly money on it that says the kid was being a dick...then ran... then shiat got weird. There is a lot of kids being dicks in Georgia recently. *sigh/my lawn get off it.

But seriously where are they hiring these cops? Where do you find people who are willing to point a killing device at a child?

Pretty sure we trained a couple million people to do just that in Iraq and Afghanistan.

SO. MUCH. THIS.

The most prized recruit any PD can get today is someone ready-trained to think of his buddies first, last and always and to consider anyone who does not wear his uniform as a potentially deadly threat. We positively cannot wait to get these people out into the community with arms, authority, and minimal debriefing. And you're a dirty unpatriotic vet-hating rat if you point out the implications.

i upped my meds-up yours:The most prized recruit any PD can get today is someone ready-trained to think of his buddies first, last and always and to consider anyone who does not wear his uniform as a potentially deadly threat. We positively cannot wait to get these people out into the community with arms, authority, and minimal debriefing. And you're a dirty unpatriotic vet-hating rat if you point out the implications.

This is happening with more than cops. Army 68Ws are trying to get bills passed in many states that let them gain licensure as EMTs in those states. While 68Ws do train to the EMT-Basic level (With the exception of those E5 and above who work on flight, and SF medics), they do not get the same medical training that would allow them to operate in a civilian setting.

It's not the likelihood that the cops did it that I question; it's entirely likely that it happened in just that way. It's the reflexive, almost knee-jerk "These guys are the bad guys, so obviously they did exactly what was related in the story" mentality that bothers me, and bothers me a great deal. To see what I mean, just replace "blacks" with "cops" in any of these stories (and change a few adjectives) and it could be any tale a bigoted asshole tells to justify keeping the Negroes down, and they could trot out just as many stories and photos as anyone here does about police to confirm their anecdotes. OF COURSE we know that the blacks (cops, Muslims, etc.) are evil, trigger-happy, barely contained savages: Just look at all these readily verified stories!

Echo chambers exist on the left as well as the right; we get a shiatload of "bad cop" stories in here, and it's extremely easy to believe that all cops are horrible evil trigger-happy PTSD'd out monsters; but then everyone on Freeperville finds it easy to believe that all Muslims are horrible evil trigger-happy religious fanatics who want to rape your kids, eat your dog and enslave your wives and daughters. And look at all the stories they have to prove it! Look at all the pictures of terrorists shooting down women and kids!

Just remember that the plural of "anecdote" isn't "data"; if you want evidence of bad cops, you don't look at hyperventilating stories of 11-year olds claiming the cops drew down on them for building a treehouse; you look at actual court cases of deputies being fired here in L.A. for abuses in Men's Central Jail. Or wait till the report comes out and we find that, for instance, this cop has a record of complaints for harassing 11-year old kids...or that the kid has a history of making up outrageous stories to get out of trouble with his strict parents. God knows its happened before.

Gyrfalcon:It's not the likelihood that the cops did it that I question; it's entirely likely that it happened in just that way. It's the reflexive, almost knee-jerk "These guys are the bad guys, so obviously they did exactly what was related in the story" mentality that bothers me, and bothers me a great deal.

So, you admit it's "entirely likely" that it it happened that way, but anyone who thinks it happened in that "entirely likely" way is showing "reflexive, almost knee-jerk... mentality" for believing it happened in that "entirely likely" way?? 'Yeah, it's probably true, BUT HOW DARE YOU BELIEVE IT!!!11!'

Echo chambers exist on the left as well as the right

Remember, an 'echo chamber' doesn't create sound, it only repeats what's already in existence. With more and more people video recording cops, there are, unsurprisingly, more and more cases of police abuse that are recorded. These get more and more publicity, being played on the evening news, or posted to Youtube or whatnot.

we get a shiatload of "bad cop" stories in here, and it's extremely easy to believe that all cops are horrible evil trigger-happy PTSD'd out monsters; but then everyone on Freeperville finds it easy to believe that all Muslims are horrible evil trigger-happy religious fanatics who want to rape your kids, eat your dog and enslave your wives and daughters. And look at all the stories they have to prove it! Look at all the pictures of terrorists shooting down women and kids!

Ah, the old 'it's only a small percentage who are bad- the rest are okay' argument. Falls apart when talking about cops- you see, cops are specifically tasked with finding and arresting criminals. Thus, when cops see one of their own breaking the law, and do nothing about it, they are complicit. Every video where ten cops stand there watching one cop kick a handcuffed citizen? That's not ONE bad cop, that's ELEVEN bad cops.

Just remember that the plural of "anecdote" isn't "data"

You're right. However, this (and similar incidents) aren't anecdotes. So, your cute little saying doesn't apply- eyewitness testimony and video evidence is NOT "anecdotal evidence". They are points of data, plain and simple.

Or wait till the report comes out and we find that, for instance, this cop has a record of complaints for harassing 11-year old kids...

But people like you would claim that's just another 'anecdote'. Just another 'isolated incident'. I swear, I could find people like you on the beach saying "Look, another isolated grain of sand. And another isolated grain of sand. And another isolated grain of sand...."

fredklein:But people like you would claim that's just another 'anecdote'. Just another 'isolated incident'. I swear, I could find people like you on the beach saying "Look, another isolated grain of sand. And another isolated grain of sand. And another isolated grain of sand...."

Using Freddy's logiuc, I am now thoroughly convinced that hospitals are death camps. I have heard story after story of people going there, often with no real signs of issues, and BAM, they are dead a few weeks or months later. The paper is full of these types of stories, I have heard them personally, and I see it online all the time.

fredklein:His punishment? Administrative leave, then right back on the streets.

There's a LOT of "isolated incidents" out there. Try looking at https://www.facebook.com/CopBlock , for instance.

So, let's do some estimation here. These numbers are not exact, but are probably in the ball park. Let's say that for every 100,000 in population, you have an average of 10 officers on duty. Let's say that they interact with the public in a meaningful manner(including arrests, traffic stops, etc.) 2 times an hour. Given thoiuse two assumptions, you are talking about approximately 1.5 million meaningful interactions between police and the general population a day.

Given that social media aggregates national news and allows people to cherry pick the datapoints that support any given argument, does it surprise you that out of a daily sample size in the millions, you can easily pick a few incidents a week that support your belief, and yet they would still be isolated incidents?

MycroftHolmes:fredklein: His punishment? Administrative leave, then right back on the streets.

There's a LOT of "isolated incidents" out there. Try looking at https://www.facebook.com/CopBlock , for instance.

So, let's do some estimation here. These numbers are not exact, but are probably in the ball park. Let's say that for every 100,000 in population, you have an average of 10 officers on duty. Let's say that they interact with the public in a meaningful manner(including arrests, traffic stops, etc.) 2 times an hour. Given thoiuse two assumptions, you are talking about approximately 1.5 million meaningful interactions between police and the general population a day.

Given that social media aggregates national news and allows people to cherry pick the datapoints that support any given argument, does it surprise you that out of a daily sample size in the millions, you can easily pick a few incidents a week that support your belief, and yet they would still be isolated incidents?

And I actually think I underestimated both of my assumptions.

It works the other way around, too. The reported cases we see are:

1)only the most severe. You think a drug dealer would bother reporting a cop 'accidentally' twisting their arm?? No one would care about such a small thing. But it's still assault and illegal.

2) only the cases that happen to someone who knows their rights. How many ignorant people let the cops search their car/home illegally because they don't know any better. If they don't know it was illegal, they can't very well report it, can they? And there are plenty of videos out there that show cops lying their asses off, claiming that what they are doing is legal, when it's not.

3) cases that happen in front of cameras. Non-police controlled cameras, of course. Oh, and the cops can't steal... Er 'take the camera as evidence', either. Or break it by throwing it on the ground, as in the pic I posted.

Now, figure out what tiny percentage of bad cop interactions are severe enough to get reported, happen to someone who knows enough to report it, AND happen in front of a camera. 1 in a 1000? 1 in 10,000?? Then calculate the number that don't.

For good measure,Multiply by the number of cops who stand there and let this shiat happen. And multiply again by the police chiefs who outright LIE about what happened (again, like I posted), to cover for their men.

Oh, by the way, there are something like 200 million cars on the road in the USA. Would it be acceptable to you if 200 of them spontaneously burst into flames and exploded each week??? After all, that's just one in a million, like your cop example.

fredklein:t works the other way around, too. The reported cases we see are:

1)only the most severe. You think a drug dealer would bother reporting a cop 'accidentally' twisting their arm?? No one would care about such a small thing. But it's still assault and illegal.

2) only the cases that happen to someone who knows their rights. How many ignorant people let the cops search their car/home illegally because they don't know any better. If they don't know it was illegal, they can't very well report it, can they? And there are plenty of videos out there that show cops lying their asses off, claiming that what they are doing is legal, when it's not.

3) cases that happen in front of cameras. Non-police controlled cameras, of course. Oh, and the cops can't steal... Er 'take the camera as evidence', either. Or break it by throwing it on the ground, as in the pic I posted.

Now, figure out what tiny percentage of bad cop interactions are severe enough to get reported, happen to someone who knows enough to report it, AND happen in front of a camera. 1 in a 1000? 1 in 10,000?? Then calculate the number that don't.

For good measure,Multiply by the number of cops who stand there and let this shiat happen. And multiply again by the police chiefs who outright LIE about what happened (again, like I posted), to cover for their men.

Let me know the result.

So let me make sure I understand your logic. You use the number of isolated incidents as evidence that police abuse is widespread. When called out on the fact that the number of incidents is actually very small, you fall back on the 'well, I was also counting the incidents that don't get reported'.

It makes me wonder why you even bothered pretending to use any type of citation initially.

Also, regarding police that do not report their colleagues,most do it because they know overreacting, biased loudmouths in the public will be crying for their heads for every action that is percieved (often without full context) as being even slightly an overreaction. Why would these cops help witch hunts? The unfortunate side affect to idiots ranting in public forums about police states and armed mobs being better than police is that police tend to take a universal stance of silence. Essentially, uninformed, overreacting idiots are more the problem than police.

I do have to admit, I like this new stance of yours. This may break your top five arguments (which is high praise indeed).

fredklein:Oh, by the way, there are something like 200 million cars on the road in the USA. Would it be acceptable to you if 200 of them spontaneously burst into flames and exploded each week??? After all, that's just one in a million, like your cop example.

I am struggling with where to start with how flawed this is. Perhaps we can back off and ask simply why you would equate spontenous vehicle fires as being functionally equivalent to the wide class of police abuses that you want to cite as examples. And why you think that a comparison of calendar week is valid considering that police are pretty much on duty 24x7, but a car is usually in use an average of 2 to 4 hours a day.

MycroftHolmes:fredklein: Oh, by the way, there are something like 200 million cars on the road in the USA. Would it be acceptable to you if 200 of them spontaneously burst into flames and exploded each week??? After all, that's just one in a million, like your cop example.

I am struggling with where to start with how flawed this is. Perhaps we can back off and ask simply why you would equate spontenous vehicle fires as being functionally equivalent to the wide class of police abuses that you want to cite as examples. And why you think that a comparison of calendar week is valid considering that police are pretty much on duty 24x7, but a car is usually in use an average of 2 to 4 hours a day.

OK, would you be OK with heavier usage vehicles like cabs, long haul trucks, police cars, etc. bursting into flames at a rate of 1 in a hundred thousand?

MycroftHolmes:You use the number of isolated incidents as evidence that police abuse is widespread. When called out on the fact that the number of incidents is actually very small, you fall back on the 'well, I was also counting the incidents that don't get reported'.

No, I used math and logic to show the number is a LOT higher than your 'one-in-a-million' figure.

Also, regarding police that do not report their colleagues,most do it because they know overreacting, biased loudmouths in the public will be crying for their heads for every action that is percieved (often without full context) as being even slightly an overreaction.

Then we need MORE transparency- show that missing context!

...Unless, of course, there is no "context" that explains away the cops actions.

fredklein:MycroftHolmes: You use the number of isolated incidents as evidence that police abuse is widespread. When called out on the fact that the number of incidents is actually very small, you fall back on the 'well, I was also counting the incidents that don't get reported'.

No, I used math and logic to show the number is a LOT higher than your 'one-in-a-million' figure.

Also, regarding police that do not report their colleagues,most do it because they know overreacting, biased loudmouths in the public will be crying for their heads for every action that is percieved (often without full context) as being even slightly an overreaction.

Then we need MORE transparency- show that missing context!

...Unless, of course, there is no "context" that explains away the cops actions.

What "context" justifies kicking a prone, spread-eagled man in the head?http://a.gifb.in/052010/1273487123_police-brutality.gif

Seeking to see people who break the law arrested and charged is, by no stretch of the imagination, a "witch-hunt".

The unfortunate side affect to idiots ranting in public forums about police states and armed mobs being better than police is that police tend to take a universal stance of silence.

The unfortunate side affect to cops defending each other when they break the law is that people start to talk about 'police states' and start looking for alternatives.

Essentially, uninformed, overreacting idiots are more the problem than police.

If you really think the public is 'uninformed'... then inform them. Imagine if cops did that, instead of cowering behind their 'blue wall of silence'.

MycroftHolmes: Perhaps we can back off and ask simply why you would equate spontenous vehicle fires as being functionally equivalent to the wide class of police abuses ...

Your analogy is very false. Please stop using it, you will confuse yourself.

Regarding the incidents cited above, on a few of them (and many more) there is context to justify the poloce action. But knee jerk idiots immediately want to jump to the 'There is no jutsification'. So yes, this causes police to clam up and protect their own from witch hunts.

You are the absolute worst nightmare, smart enough to make some word sounds that sound credible, self righteous enough to honestly believe you are doing right, and so completely wrong in most of your interpretations as to be dangerous, If I had a group of individuals like you second guessing mine and my peers actions, I would hide our activities as well.