WHO WE ARE: The shock of the new

A column about Australia by David Dale, published in The Sun-Herald 5/8/2007
Bloody foreigners -- they come here, don't speak the language, and act like they own the place. Australians have been saying that about new arrivals at regular intervals since the year 1788. The delightful thing is that after each burst of verbal or literal spear-throwing, Australians come around not just to tolerating the visitors but to revelling in the new ideas they have brought.

In 1833, Robert Lyon, a Sydney teacher, expressed surprise at the welcoming attitude of the original Australians. He told a gathering of English immigrants: "Ye destroy the natural productions of the soil on which they live, ye devour their fish and their game, and ye drive them from the abodes of their ancestors. They have all along shown themselves ready to be reconciled, desirous to live in peace and amity with you, and even willing to be taught your manners, laws and polity."

In effect, the original Australians were saying: "For those who've come across the seas, we've boundless plains to share." Later Australians took a while to achieve that generosity of spirit.

When the Chinese arrived in search of gold and stayed to run restaurants, the initial reaction was antagonistic. Introducing the first bill ever put to federal parliament in September, 1901, the Attorney-General Alfred Deakin said: "It is not the bad qualities but the good qualities of these alien races that make them dangerous to us. It is their inexhaustible energy, their power of applying themselves to new tasks, their endurance and low standard of living that makes them such competitors ... We are united in the resolve that this Commonwealth shall be established on the firm foundation of unity of race."

But in January, 1951, the Governor General, William McKell, propounded a different view of "the great immigration project upon which we are now firmly embarked". He said the newcomers were "bringing to Australia not only the benefits of their knowledge and skills, but of their age-old cultures. The old and the new should blend into a better and more varied community of people."

When I was growing up in the early 1960s, I often heard older passengers on buses muttering "Speak Australian, why doncha?" to couples conversing in unfamiliar languages. Terms such as wog, dago, balt, chink, spick, pom, nip and the all-encompassing "reffo" were in everyday usage.

But by the 1990s, spag bol was our national dish, cappuccino was our national drink and a survey found that soy sauce and curry paste were in the cupboards of 70 per cent of Australian households. A poll of 4270 adults conducted in 2005 by the Australian National University's Centre for Social Research found that 74 per cent agreed with the statement "Immigrants make Australia open to new ideas and cultures", and 69 per cent agreed that "Immigrants are generally good for Australia's economy".

Last week one of our most entertaining politicians, the Immigration and Citizenship Minister Kevin Andrews, declared he would not "be scared off by people who don't stand up for Australians ... We've got to balance up bringing people from overseas but with an ability to actually be able to properly settle and integrate into the Australian society."

There's more of Deakin's "unity of race" than McKell's "more varied community" in that comment -- which is understandable. On the strength of the Immigration Restriction Act, Alfred Deakin went on to become prime minister.

Is variety or uniformity the spice of immigration? Are pleasant surprises better than comforting predictability?

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LATEST COMMENTS

Funnily enough Andrews was extolling freedom of association he was busy throwing an innocent man out of the country for being "suspected of having an association with his cousins".
Strange. Can we have less of Kevin Andrews type here do you think?

Posted by: Marilyn on August 5, 2007 12:59 AM

Sydney would be so dull without the mixed cultural dimension to spice things up

Posted by: Cam on August 5, 2007 2:12 AM

Oh good Lord yes!!!
Variety is the spice of immigration. How dull would Australia be today if we had only let those who were like us in?
Forget little Johnny and his antics designed purely to win elections. The foreigners won't eat us... they may actually contribute something new and interesting to our society.
PS- All Muslims are not actually terrorists.

Posted by: Gnatski on August 5, 2007 3:00 AM

I'm all for diversity...but if variety means accepting people who have a major problem with accepting the equitable rights our society has awarded to women, gays, co-habitating couples, minority religious beliefs etc then I'm not so sure. I live in the UK, where, if polls are true, close to 30% of british Muslims aged between 16-25 think Sharia law is a good idea. Talk about turning the clock back more than a few decades...let alone a place where the more liberal, compassionate and fair-minded Aussie has no desire to visit...let alone recreate.

Posted by: wen on August 5, 2007 3:47 AM

The antagonism towards the Chinese started somewhat later. In the goldfields a Chinese man was considered a good catch as a husband, hardworking, diligent and faithful. It would seem that jealousy did its work and the Chinese were later demonised. If you note the cartoons of the day it was about evil yellow people running off with flaxen haired girls.

Posted by: Barry on August 5, 2007 6:30 AM

Immigrants have a lot to offer to Australia. They may not speak great English, but that does not mean they cannot contribute as much or more to society than someone who speaks "Australian" English.

Posted by: SN on August 5, 2007 7:36 AM

last night late show TV with David Letterman from New York - "Rupert Murdoch, an Australian, billionaire, now owns the New York Post, Fox Network, MySpace [buying the Wall St Journal]... do you think we could build a fence to keep out This Guy ... ?!"

Posted by: Frank on August 5, 2007 7:55 AM

All Australians get with the program. Immigrants make Australia what it is today. Without it, we would be a backwater of uncultured muppets...funnily enough of the same variety who run the country today. Embrace immigration, set realistic standards for integration and allow the hard working folk to make a good life for themselves.
Wen...I live in London now and the attitudes of young Muslims is not a result of bad/too much/uncontrolled/unfiltered immigration, its a result of controlling the views and attitudes of a minor few extremists.
Let immigrate, diversify and unite. That will be truly...Australian.

Posted by: Varun on August 5, 2007 8:15 AM

We have the whole immigration thing all wrong!
There should be no immigration at all. We should close the borders. The only reason why we have immigration is to support globalization.
As Anglo-Americans we take over indigenous nations and then we invite them to come and live our lifestyle, in the hope that they will take it back and assimilate it to their own profound and spiritual cultures.
If we don't have globalization, we don't have immigration, it's as simple as that.
As Anglo-Americans we're all a bit racist; it's in our blood. We see indigenous cultures as servants, only because our history suggests this. We all try to be nice to immigrants, but it's a fact that we think we are better. We shouldn't be trying so hard, we should have have our own little piece of the world where we can drink beer, eat good aussie tucker and watch the footy on a hill not in a seat.
There is one catch though...it's not our land? EXACTLY! So what do we need to do about this. To close our borders with any real integrity we need to make amends with our original land holder, the Aboriginals. Until we do this, we're just imperialistic anglo-american conquerers; we can do it though.
Lao Tzu taught us an amazing lesson in his penultimate chapter of his book entitled the Tao Teh Ching...
...
Though there may be another country in the neighbourhood so close that they are within sight of each other and the crowing of cocks and barking of dogs in one place can be heard in the other, yet there is no traffic between them, and throughout their lives the two peoples have nothing to do with each other.
It's not racism; it's reality. We aren't the same, we are so different.

Posted by: Grant Walker on August 5, 2007 8:41 AM

Immigration has shaped humanity ever since the first ape climbed down its tree and strated walking -it's in our genes to travel, explore and settle in new lands.
Thanks to that, this great country is the sum of all of us, old and new alike.

Posted by: el_Carlos on August 5, 2007 9:03 AM

For those who advocate 'only allowing people to speak good English to immigrate to Australia' is advocating a white policy. Afterall, isn't English a Anglo-Saxon language? The clock cannot be turned backwards. WE are now a rich multicultural country with citizens from all over the world. My good friends include people from Hungary, Poland and many other countries which I haven't even visited before in my life. I am addicted to cappucino! Walk into a shopping centre's food court, and you will find the amazing array of food. Tell me, where else can you find this in Europe.. including USA!
As for those whom our politicians claim, do not integrate, they are problems of poverty, isolation, fear and equity. We must all sit down to talk. Afterall, for these people, the only way to survive is to integrate and speak the English language well. Given a chance, wouldn't they want to? And as for 'trouble makers' we can get from all ethnicities so let us know cherry pick on ethnic and made them feel excluded.
Politicians are politicians. They like to play all all the fears and differences and pretend they best fight for our rights. In fact, some are doing stuff in tearing the society apart. A good man exudes understanding, compassion with policies which unite not destroy.

WE Should allow anyone into this country as long as they dont have a criminal record and are willing to work we have a desperate skills shortage and im sick of the media painting us as a raqcist country because we are not. Australia is built on it migrants and not allowing them in is disgusting and highly hypocritical

Posted by: Daz on August 5, 2007 9:41 AM

Australia,
Do not let multiculturalism destroy the fabric of your culture. Come to England and see a country divided...
See what has happened to Europe through poor border control and weak political agenda.
Now go to the middle east and asia and see how they have NEVER allowed foreigners to be allowed in to their countries without strict controls and see how much our culture is tolerated in these countries....
Western culture is weak and feels guilt for all its sins of the past, get over and build back your culture.

Posted by: standardize on August 5, 2007 10:08 AM

Immigrants are more than likely highly educated, financially well off, entrepreneurs, have a better command of the English language, more tolerant, globally eco friendly and in touch with a wider world. Not a bad mixture to include in the melting pot called Australia.

Posted by: Ian on August 5, 2007 10:09 AM

How can Australia call itself a TOLERANT and MULTI-cultural society, when to take a drive through many suburbs in Sydney, you would think we were a collection of MONO-cultural communities, where one suburb stupidly becomes knows as the 'Greek' or 'Lebanese' or 'Vietnamese', etc area? How can we say we are tolerant, when we have Australian (by immigration) Muftis preaching hatred against the cultural practices of the majority of people in this country? And when we have a Federal party (Labor party) that segments its branches as 'Vietnamese' branch, 'Lebanese' branch etc. If this were true MULTI-culturalism, wouldn't we all just be AUSTRALIAN?
Both TOLERANCE and MULTI-culturalism need to be a two-way street if they
are to work correctly. Encouraging new immigrants to be equipped with English is the first step to helping them become a part of the greater Australian community and the opportunities it offers, and is the first step to removing the often unfounded fears of a sceptical public. If people could meet and communicate regularly, in their own suburb, in a common language, with the great variety of all our new Australians, then THAT would be multi-culturalism (to me).

Posted by: Tim on August 5, 2007 10:23 AM

everybody would agree with joe boston about the food( add leb breads,danish and italian biscuits, hummus,nougat,tempura chicken,fetta ...but no sauerkraut pleeease..how can anybody eat that stuff???!!)
also the girls...to me..looks like every 3rd aussie is going out with an immigrant
immigrants are driving a lot of the housing boom,too, as those coming to oz are the elite from their countries.(oz only accepts professionals or on business visa)
And many immigrants have opened businesses and even whole new industries (aquaculture,market gardens,pearling,cafes,wine etc )

Posted by: shiv on August 5, 2007 11:01 AM

The plight of Immigration and Imigrants is huge, especially when it is badly managed, mis-used and manipulated for group and personal gains. It is a real plight when the previous well established immigrants try to manipulate and abuse the new ones and think of themselves that they are the only citizens of the land. It is a real plight when, with out planning, poor quality immigrants let in to screw up the rest of the tribes. It is a real plight when bigot groups and tribes regardless of their faiths, colors, ethnic backgrounds, etc... are let to run the sceen for their own advantages and marginalize the rest.
A civilized nation should take care of its citizens first by applying the laws impartially, instead of taking advantage of them, marginalizing some of them, etc... A civilized nation should not bow to a certain group, mob, sect or what so ever on the expense of the rest. A civilized nation must treat its citizens impartially and equally under the law regardless of their faiths, colors, ethnic backgrounds, etc...
By law and virtue, Australians, we must acknowledge and understand that Australia is for every Australian citizen regardless of their faiths, colors, ethnic backgrounds, dates of arrivals, etc... Further, we must understand that in every race, ethnic background, group, etc... do exist bigot, racist, jealous, selfish and pervert people, but above all at the end our genuine loyality and allegiance must be to Australia and its people regardless of any circumstances.
To sum up, Australia is multi-nationals nation regardless of their birth places, religions, colors, ethnic backgrounds, arrival dates, etc.... The only ones who have been in Australia for over 40,000 years are the Indigenous Aborigines. Therefore, especially the false religious groups regardless of your faiths stop dividing Australia into manipulative and bigot Hebrews, Christians, Catholics, Muslims, Hinuis, Buddheists and the like. The law of the nation must be above all regardless of your greed, prejudices, faiths, dramas and actings.

Posted by: Australian on August 5, 2007 11:12 AM

Gosh, these questions are tiring. Must we always be reassessing who we are? Most of us just want to get on with our lives, but unfortunately, you can't do that in a multi-cultural country can you? How lucky are those living in homogeneous lands who can just wake up daily and be accepted for who they are, not as who others want or expect them to be. It's frankly exhausting this business because guess what...it's whitey that must reassess who he/she is, while 'others' get to assert who they are.

Posted by: LOL on August 5, 2007 11:23 AM

I am a proud new AUstralian, and a proud new citizen of this country. I speak English, I dress up in standard european atire, I pay my tax, I obey the law of this land. To be fair I have received a great welcome and acceptance by the majority of anglo section of australian community and also at the same time a very hardcore hatred directed at me just because the way I look. Give me the language barrier, cultural barrier I can handle it mate no problem, but unfortunately I cannot change the way I look. If you're not happy in this country why don't you go back to where you come from.

Posted by: David on August 5, 2007 12:01 PM

If anyone thinks those who arrive as immigrants do not eventually become Australian (by which they usually mean anglicized) they have not spent a Saturday afternoon at what is now the only Ikea in Sydney like I did yesterday. It attracts every possible variation of 'Australian' (incl the ones who claim they would not be seen dead in Ikea) and they have a common goal- cheap homewares. We definitely have some problems when these groups interact in their communities but those conflicts take a back seat while we try to decide which cheap swedish lounge to buy. I am always comforted by the sheer variety of people there all fixated on the most banal things. So yes definitely variety!

Posted by: Cat on August 5, 2007 12:02 PM

Variety is the spice of life.

I remember the awful days of the 50's and 60's when we waved the Union Jack, ate tasteless food, and ocker types felt free to abuse anyone from another country with vile racist comments. Even art was 'sissy stuff', and women were second class citizens . Thank god for migrants who have helped turn this country into a colourful culturally diverse nation far more interesting than the good old quasi- British model.

The amazing thing is that we all get on so well with a few minor problems from time to time, generally started by those who still lament over the values of yesteryear Australia: Racism, ignorance and xenophobia.

Posted by: Rob Funnell on August 5, 2007 12:14 PM

Hello LOL,
" it's whitey that must reassess who he/she is, while 'others' get to assert who they are "...

also..australia is a huuuge and very rich land..and it needs people , especially in the small towns..
heard about the town that is offering 500,000 for a doctor? or do you think you could pop out a doc from a suburban bus-stop?..

I dont know about your financial circumstances but most 'battler' aussies dont realise its their govt.(and wealthy aussies) who are ripping them off(or letting them down) and not immigrants...as read above:australia is a vast, temperate and rich country...

Posted by: shiv on August 5, 2007 12:20 PM

A love of foreign food should have nothing to do with our immigration policy. Many people talking about multicultural mates are probalby deluding themselves - they are more likely immigrants that have successfully assimilated to the dominant culture. If you really want to find out about immigration and integration and the dangers of unfettered multiculturalism go and live in one of the many ethnic encalves in western Sydney - bet you wouldn't want to do that would you? After all, the locals may not be quite so tolerant of some of your customs.

Posted by: realist on August 5, 2007 12:23 PM

Well, what a coincidence. The same story is being run in the Guardian UK today.
"What Churchill said about Britain's immigrants"
David Smith
Sunday August 5, 2007
The Observer
Sir Winston Churchill expressed alarm about an influx of 'coloured people' in Fifties' Britain and looked for a chance to restore punishment by flogging, newly released cabinet papers from the national archive reveal.
On 3 February 1954, under the agenda item 'Coloured Workers', Churchill is quoted, with abbreviations, by Cabinet Secretary Sir Norman Brook as saying: 'Problems wh. will arise if many coloured people settle here. Are we to saddle ourselves with colour problems in UK? Attracted by Welfare State. Public opinion in UK won't tolerate it once it gets beyond certain limits.'
Florence Horsbrugh, the then Minister of Education and Conservative MP for Manchester Moss Side, is recorded as adding: 'Already becoming serious in Manchr.'
Then David Maxwell-Fyfe, the Home Secretary, gave a figure of 40,000 compared to 7,000 before the Second World War and raised the possibility of immigration control. He said: 'There is a case on merits for excludg. riff-raff. But politically it wd. be represented & discussed on basis of colour limitation. That wd. offend the floating vote viz., the old Liberals. We shd. be reversing age-long trad[ition] tht. B[ritish] S[ubjects] have right of entry to mother-country of Empire. We shd. offend Liberals, also sentimentalists.'
He added: 'The col[onial]. pop[ulations] are resented in L[iverpool], Paddington & other areas by those who come into contact with them. But those who don't are apt to take a more Liberal view.'
Churchill intervened: 'Ques. is wtr it is politically wise to allow public feeling to develop a little more before takg. action.'
Adding that it would be 'fatal' to let the situation develop too far, the Prime Minister is recorded as concluding: 'Wd lke also to study possibility of "quota" - no. not to be exceeded.'
The documents give an insight into attitudes of the time and echo modern concerns about border controls. Handwritten notebooks were kept as a record of cabinet meetings separate from the official minutes.
At another meeting, on 20 November 1952, the cabinet discussed corporal punishment, which had been abolished as a court sentence by the previous Attlee administration. Churchill is quoted saying: 'Shd we clutter ourselves up with enquiry when p.[ublic] opinion may give us chance to restore flogging for all crimes of violence & cruelty. Alternative is to devise much stiffer cond[itions] of imp[risonmen]t. What about a plebiscite on c.p. - a suitable subject. What of re-introducg. for 3 or 5 years, to see if it does reduce crime. If we can't act, I wd. sooner not have an enquiry.'
But Viscount Simonds, the Lord Chancellor, objected: 'Every civilised country, save Brazil & some States in US, has abandoned this penalty.'
On 10 July 1952, the cabinet turned its attention to 'Sugar: for Jam Making'. It was noted that there was strong pressure from farmers because a bumper crop would see plums go to waste and a call for the government to step in by issuing more sugar.
The difficulty was in deciding whether the extra sugar needed for the purpose of preserving the fruit should come out of government stockpiles or be found by reducing the sweet ration for three months to save enough sugar.
At the end of the cabinet debate, Churchill agreed that action must be taken and blamed on the bumper crop, declaring: 'Plums shall not rot.'http://observer.guardian.co.uk/politics/story/0,,2142098,00.html

Posted by: Geordie, UK on August 5, 2007 12:51 PM

Posted by: David on August 5, 2007 12:01 PM: "I am a proud new AUstralian, and a proud new citizen of this country. I speak English, I dress up in standard european atire, I pay my tax, I obey the law of this land. To be fair I have received a great welcome and acceptance by the majority of anglo section of australian community and also at the same time a very hardcore hatred directed at me just because the way I look. Give me the language barrier, cultural barrier I can handle it mate no problem, but unfortunately I cannot change the way I look. If you're not happy in this country why don't you go back to where you come from."

A very uplifting post, David. You're the sort of new Australian we welcome. It's a shame about the few hard spots you're enduring, but...what can I say...I'm of Italian stock and grew up in Melbourne in the 1970s when "wog" was deemed to be a term of endearment (it is now, but it wasn't then). Stay strong, mate!

Posted by: Marco on August 5, 2007 12:57 PM

Debbie said: For those who advocate 'only allowing people to speak good English to immigrate to Australia' is advocating a white policy.

Not true. Many many Indian people are native English speakers and speak excellent English (often with better grammar than Aussies).

Posted by: Bruce Smith on August 5, 2007 12:58 PM

I go to a school in Sydney. I am a white Australian. And I am fed up with being held to ransom by the word 'racism'. Whatever I say, whatever I do can be turned against me because it is in some way 'racist'.
Thanks a lot.
Our weak government and all you people out there supporting unmitigated immigration are responsible for making myself and no doubt many more ordinary, innocent aussie kids, go to school with the constant fear that one day you could be sent packing for getting on the wrong side of an immigrant.
I'm a second class citizen.
I would give up all the asian and italian food I enjoy just to be able to go to school and have a good time.
Bullying no longer exists.
Racism is all that exists.
No matter how much crap I get and indeed much of it comes from immigrants who can hide behind that wonderful 'r' word, i can't do anything to protect myself.
If i accidentally slip up and say something that actually is racist. I'm gone. Meanwhile the immigrant who has given me a hard time for so long is comforted and allowed to further destroy our culture and society.
Multiculturalism is a load of crap. It is stupid. It doesn't work.
The only good thing people can say about it is food. Wow. Isn't that so important!
Back to school tomorrow.

Posted by: Jim on August 5, 2007 1:13 PM

As a direct disendant of the first fleet,I have only one thing to say really,and that is the animals dont mix and it is obvious that different races and religions cant either.
I cannot find one country (with multiculturism)that does not have problems with religion and culture,so why buck the system as we should leave all to there own.

Posted by: Darkie McMillan on August 5, 2007 1:15 PM

its true about ikea attracting the most polyglot crowd. They seem to have tapped into the global retail vibe very well. (they also have a diverse workforce )
hint to aussie cos.: dont be sideswiped , learn from ikea.
Or is it fine that the companies are ruled by anyone..the KKRs,Singaporeans,Swedes etc..but the souvlaki trailer cart must be banned at all costs..
Repeat: Hello Aussie..your Govt. and wealthy Aussies are ripping you off and putting obstacles in your path and creating a scarcity scenario and gloomy outlook wheras the truth is aust. is a vast,bountiful and sunny place.

Posted by: shiv on August 5, 2007 1:26 PM

Two hundred years ago this country was stolen from its indigenous inhabitants, immigration to this country till very recent times has been about creating a monocultural (loyal) anglo enclave. Had the anglophille immigration depart/politicians been obsessed with skills not Anglo-ness we might actually be a clever country (not one that just exploits the countries natural resources for a living)and even have our own flag and head of state.

Posted by: jim on August 5, 2007 2:17 PM

To anyone who doesn't like his/her lot in this country, you, as in the words of the wise Sam Kekovich, know the way to the Airport.

I say this in a facetious manner because I certainly don't think any migrant who came here complained about the living conditions. You certainly wouldn't see me complaining about it. Perhaps we can just say that everyone who seriously thinks that any group of people in Australia (Barring the Indigenous Australians) is treated like "Second Class Citizenry" has a chip on their shoulder and needs to just get over it.

You do not know what persecution or "Second Class Citizenry" is until you are forced to compete for university places denied you and given to another race; forced to state your racial background before asking for anything from the government; having your credibility in court diminished because of how you look or how your name is spelled.

Seriously, get over it.

Posted by: Wack on August 5, 2007 2:24 PM

Shiv, I agree with you about the standard of English in the country. It has gone downhill since the IT revolution took hold. When I was at school, the 3-Rs were all that mattered, and we rote-learned our grammar. I've taught English in East Asia, where rote learning grammar is thought to be the correct methodology (at the expense of oral communication). In the Asian culture, the written form seems to carry weight over the spoken form. That aside, I'm all for improving (re-instating) the English standard in our education framework. Essentially, our public education system is geared toward a blue-collar workforce. In egalitarian Australia, the idea of a son or daughter rising up to become a doctor doesn't carry the same status appeal that it would, in say, India or Korea. In fact, these days you're better off seeking self-employment in the blue-collar fields (plumbing, construction, carpentry) because you can make more money than white-collar professionals, and control your hours as well. There is a cultural difference here between Australia and (I'm assuming you're of Indian heritage) some non-Anglo-Saxon-Celtic nations. Perhaps that's why there is such a dire shortage of doctors in all the Western nations--it's simply not the ultimate profession that most aspire to achieve. For me, the best that I can hope to achieve is to be successful in my own business, which I run from home. I get out what I put in. I pay my taxes, but I get to shut shop when it suits me. I am a divorced mother, with two young children, so flexibility is paramount in my life. All the best to you, and don't take these blogs too seriously--they usually attract the standard-bearers of left, right and centre-minded heads. Take care.

Posted by: Home-based of Brisbane on August 5, 2007 2:31 PM

Quoting a comment from Jim: I would give up all the asian and italian food I enjoy just to be able to go to school and have a good time." I wonder if you realise that we are all migrants (including the "white australians"). It shows what kind of bigotted, petty, and small minded person you are (unfortunately I do know that you are not the only one). Sounds like you are terribly suffering in this great country of ours Jim, maybe you should leave the country and go home to wherever you come from.

Posted by: David on August 5, 2007 2:31 PM

Lovely Australians,

don't let yourself be fooled by politicians living in the well off neighbourhoods having their children attending the upperclass schools, but instead listen to the people living in the supposed to be so nice mono-ethical areas where not the Austrlian fair-go is the dominant culture, but islamic and other modernity unfriendly cultures. Not only have these people a right to be heard without inmediately being disqualified as 'racists', it would also help you to structure you immigration policy in the that way that Australia will not wake up with the same headache as we Europeans do - and believe me, the marjority of the population in the UK, France and the Netherlands now do realise something must have went wrong while surpressing the voices of ordinary people who from early on could testify that badly managed immigration has more sides than only more different dishes on the table.
Have a close look to Amsterdam and the rest of The Netherlands these days, and think twice when you are about to exclude the opinion of ordinary Austrlians living in the multicultural fiesta. Take you chance and learn from what went wrong overseas and the first lesson is: listen to you own ordinary people and don't dismiss their concenrs!!

- a recent immigrant from the Netherlands.

Posted by: immigrant from Europe on August 5, 2007 2:35 PM

Reply to Darkie McMillan's post:"As a direct disendant of the first fleet,I have only one thing to say really,and that is the animals dont mix and it is obvious that different races and religions cant either." Are you proposing that we all now adopt the real Australian culture? I agree with you mate, I think you should start learning the real culture and language of this land. I am all for Aboriginal culture....the custodian of this land.

Posted by: David on August 5, 2007 2:46 PM

While the case can be competently made that some religions are not at all conducive helping an individual function in a democratic society (see the UK and the Netherlands), you people discriminating on purely biological grounds are sickening.

No one is denying that there is a problem with multiculturalism when it comes to insular, extremist Islam and other religions of its ilk. Equating this with race or something as superficial as competency with the English language is quite a leap of fallacious logic.

People who are Anglo who claim to be discriminated against should, for once in their sheltered, pathetic existence, take the opportunity to watch question time in the Australian house of reps. Look for the coloured faces. That is the extent to which the wogs, the spics, the chinks and the lebs control this country.

People can not change their genes, nor should they be made to feel like they need to.

Posted by: Chris on August 5, 2007 2:59 PM

its a tough job to live with so many nationalities.Aussies handle it well mostly.i give them good marks for this..(in the living arena yes,but not the work area where they get low marks)
my view of some other areas of aussie life
- Housing:aussies think they are the best builders and urban planners.its improved now but look at the old houses a bit away from cities..bad designs..and many foreign cities have great buildings and houses,too..so its no big deal.
-Footy: an average game being upsold.soccer will dethrone it.
-Religion: Christianity is an ethnic religion. from downtown ethnic jerusalem with headquarters in vatican wogland.
-Tourism: why do aussies flock to Bali, thailand etc if the beaches here are so peter perfect..??grow up..the balinese and thais are very good at tourism..
-Technology;There is a huge tech paranoia here with all tech matters being held like the Royal Crown jewels.wake up ppl..most tech developments are coming here from overseas..(from immigrant-land)
military: Thinks it has a superior force but has not been tested directly other than by japan which was actually of secondary level of engagement.
-sports: aust. good at cricket and hockey.also in swimming and was in tennis.end of story.nowhere in athletics, gymnastics,F1,boxing, soccer,sailing etc but thinks its the best in all these,too.

Posted by: shiv on August 5, 2007 3:01 PM

Beneath our radiant Southern Cross,
We'll toil with hearts and hands,
To make this Commonwealth of ours
Renowned of all the lands,
For those who've come across the seas
We've boundless plains to share,
With courage let us all combine
To advance Australia fair.
In joyful strains then let us sing,
Advance Australia fair.

Have you got the courage to share? Many of comment posters here today doesn't seem to. It's the second verse of "Advance Australia Fair" by the way.

Posted by: David on August 5, 2007 3:07 PM

Sorry to say this to you Darkie McMillan the direct "disendant" (it's actually spelt: descendant"), but I'm affraid the new English standard for "migrants" would mean that you're not a fair dinkum aussie too mate.

Posted by: David on August 5, 2007 3:18 PM

Shiv, you appear to have two massive chips on your shoulders. So, you detest the building code (is it better in your native India), the sports code (you prefer the McDonalised form of the football code, 'soccer') and blabber on about religion etc. AFL is the oldest sporting code. It is loved by many Aussies. Why do you have a problem with this? Did you come here to change everything because you want it to be like your old culture? Be careful with your attitude; it will stick and possibly influnece more moderate Aussies to reconsider their views about the beauty of multiculturalism. I've lived overseas--I didn't go to these countries to demand that they change their cultural and social systems--how disrespectful can you get? The Anglo-Saxon-Celtic British culture built this country and made it worthwhile so that the likes of you could come here and take advantage of its generous democratic values (ie right to slander the new land with no consequences or responsibilities expected) and to enjoy a lifestyle that is hard to match. It is you that should be heading home, dear boy. And, stop trolling this blog--are you also David? If not, there are two fools from planet bigot operating here.

PS: Yes, we know the Aboriginals are struggling, but they have access to a sweet welfare system. They can choose or not choose to join the rest of the country and indulge in a work ethic in order to reap a better lifestyle. So, drop this baloney...maybe our indigenous brothers and sisters would have got a better deal under the Japanese, Chinese or Indonesian military eh? And be reasonable, if the indigneous culture has passed through an 'agricultural' phase (like our Asian neighbours), the adjustement to modernism would have been easier. As it is, the genteel class don't have to work and no longer have to go hunting for food at the end of the day (like they had to 200 years ago). This is not being prejudicial, this is being factual.

Posted by: PPP on August 5, 2007 3:28 PM

sports: "aust. good at cricket and hockey.also in swimming and was in tennis.end of story.nowhere in athletics, gymnastics,F1,boxing, soccer,sailing etc but thinks its the best in all these,too."
Posted by: shiv on August 5, 2007 3:01 PM

Yes...and it is obligatory to include the usual (irrelevant) link to sporting prowess.
No, we don't think we're the best in anything, but you clearly are threatended by that notion. Isn't this your new homeland--therefore, shouldn't you be trying to be seen to embrace the existing systems. But, obviously attempting to do your best, be it in the work place, community and sporting field, is against your religion. We're human dear boy, and just as likely to make the same mistakes (and go onto improve on them) as any other peoples. What is it with your attitude? Please settle down, take a deep breath, and then go take a shower. Your inferiority complex is ruining this discussion.

Posted by: PPP on August 5, 2007 3:35 PM

Shriv is giving brown people a bad name. Over-emotional git.

Time to find a new Hindu god to worship eh!

Posted by: Mary J on August 5, 2007 3:36 PM

"its a tough job to live with so many nationalities.Aussies handle it well mostly.i give them good marks for this..(in the living arena yes,but not the work area where they get low marks)
my view of some other areas of aussie life."

Shriv, I'm a qualified accountant, but I can't get a job because all of the Indian and Asian students have found success where I have not. I'm a white, middle-class female (currently working as an office clerk) in my early-20s. Should I go to the racial discrimination board?

Posted by: Latitia of Geelong on August 5, 2007 3:40 PM

"Have you got the courage to share? Many of comment posters here today doesn't seem to. It's the second verse of "Advance Australia Fair" by the way."

Posted by: David on August 5, 2007 3:07 PM

So, David/Shriv is trying to succeed at being a real smart-A. Congratulations, you pass. You'll never be an Aussie, you're too far up yourself to see the light of an Aussie day. It's attitude that counts, not pretence. BTW, how is life in India these days? Assume the standard of living is great, which is why you ended up coming to that horrible, racist island called Australia. How are the untouchable classes fairing these days? Are they getting a fair-go?

Posted by: Letitia of Geelong on August 5, 2007 3:44 PM

Shriv, did you come here to work as a plumber or carpenter? Or, are you only here to improve your status by pleasing your parents, and..um..working as a doctor. Gawd I hope you're not a doctor..otherwise, it's another one let slip through out of shortage. We're too nice in this country aren't we? Try going to Italy, Japan or Singapore and see how far you get with your attitude. In India, you'd be hung, drawn and quartered and thrown on a burning pile for insulting the entire country (hasn't Haneef's entire country been insulted..he wants the Aus government to apologise to HIS country..what a laff!). We're two entirely different cultures aren't we...and guess what...you'll never belong because you don't want to belong. Ah, but the shame culture of these countries wouldn't allow you to get past your first post. Bring it on little guy. I just hope that you're ready to rip in a bar where real men will give you a taste of your own self-hatred, instead of cowering behind a keyboard and spitting chips like a true coward.

Posted by: Letitia on August 5, 2007 3:50 PM

To PPP. You are exactly representing the sad, scared, paranoid, little men who thinks the whole world is against them. You are so obtuse by trying to justify the occupation of the land by saying the Indiginous population get a "sweet welfare". By the way the study shows that the migrants are less likely to go on welfare, more educated, healtier and earn more money compared to the average australian (http://www.news.com.au/sundaytelegraph/story/0,,22129121-5011660,00.html).
Maybe that's the real reason you are so angry and upset ?? And no I am not Shiv.

Posted by: David on August 5, 2007 3:58 PM

And that, Shiv, you idiot, is how prejudices are created...

I noticed ALL the posts before his comment, which were really heart warming, and true display of the Aussie Fair go spirit.

However, it takes one nut job to ruin the mood of the party.

(Although, I think Shiv's intention seems to be to incite this kind of repugnance, which also leads me to believe it might not really be a "Shiv" but...)

While I am in no way supporting what this moron is saying, I would however like to request Letitia, and Mary J to read a little bit about India on neutral sources like Wikipedia before making the snide remarks they did - I don;t deny that what Shiv said would incite a similar response, I believe it has been said as bait and should not be dignified with a response

Posted by: my2cents on August 5, 2007 4:14 PM

David, I'm female. And, believe me..I've heard it all before from the likes of you and am sick to death of it. I've lived in East Asia, where the word 'racism' rarely gets bandied about, but it exists in thick dark clouds. So, if you don't think migrants are getting a fair go here, might I suggest you encourage them to try elsewhere (bear in mind that Japan and Korea don't take immigrants, they do take visa workers, but boot them out when work dries up). I'm actually in favour of this modus operandi myself. I've lost complete faith in multi-culturalism (tribalism). I like my British values, and I want to keep them thankyou very much.

Posted by: PPP on August 5, 2007 4:18 PM

All around the country there are people helping newcomers to Australia to settle in, learn English and learn our ways.
Some are paid to do this and some do such work or assistance voluntarily.
It can be a wonderful way to expand your horizons when you can't perhaps travel.
I worked with a young woman who arrived here after 11 years in a refugee camp. On being given a task for homework she looked a bit concerned but said "I think I can try...."
Perhaps we can all try to understand.

Posted by: Ann on August 5, 2007 4:21 PM

When I hear comments from people like David/Shiva, I understand why their own countries have largely failed socially and economically. They fall in on themselves due to bad attitude. Then they immigrate to a 'Western' country and do their best to encourage collapse in order to make themselves feel better about their shambolic past.

Posted by: PPP on August 5, 2007 4:23 PM

Quote from Latitia: "I'm a qualified accountant, but I can't get a job because all of the Indian and Asian students have found success where I have not. I'm a white, middle-class female (currently working as an office clerk) in my early-20s. Should I go to the racial discrimination board?"

No latitia what you need to do is look up websites like https://jobsearch.gov.au to find jobs. Just like the rest of us we have to study hard and look hard to find job, you can't expect to be given a job just by having a qualification.
And yes you have answered my question that the real motives for your hatred is your jealousy that someone else is doing better than you, NOT because they are useless THANK YOU for proving the theory. BTW: So far I've never called my great country a racist country. It is people like yourselves who are complaining about everyone else.

Posted by: David on August 5, 2007 4:27 PM

"No latitia what you need to do is look up websites like https://jobsearch.gov.au to find jobs. Just like the rest of us we have to study hard and look hard to find job, you can't expect to be given a job just by having a qualification.
And yes you have answered my question that the real motives for your hatred is your jealousy that someone else is doing better than you, NOT because they are useless THANK YOU for proving the theory. BTW: So far I've never called my great country a racist country. It is people like yourselves who are complaining about everyone else."
Posted by: David on August 5, 2007 4:27 PM
You're cunning and manipulative aren't you? My post was in response to your post, which not so subtlely suggested that migrants weren't getting a fair go in the workplace. My post was to make a point that if a white person can't get a job, who do they blame? No one, but themselves because there is no bogey main to charge. Actually, I do work as an accountant, but I can tell you it has taken me years to find this great job. I happen to work alongside mostly new migrants (ex-international students) from Malaysia, Singapore and India. We all got where we are based on a meritocracy system, not on skin-colour. So, please drop the furphies.

Posted by: Letitia of Geelong on August 5, 2007 4:42 PM

Only difference between so called "Australian" and we "Migrant" is that they came first and we came later unless they are "Native Australian" or quite frankly "Aboriginals".

Posted by: Madhu Pudasaini on August 5, 2007 5:02 PM

Quote from letitia:"You're cunning and manipulative aren't you? My post was in response to your post, which not so subtlely suggested that migrants weren't getting a fair go in the workplace. My post was to make a point that if a white person can't get a job, who do they blame? No one, but themselves because there is no bogey main to charge. Actually, I do work as an accountant, but I can tell you it has taken me years to find this great job. I happen to work alongside mostly new migrants (ex-international students) from Malaysia, Singapore and India. We all got where we are based on a meritocracy system, not on skin-colour. So, please drop the furphies."

Posted by: Letitia of Geelong on August 5, 2007 4:42 PM

Please make up your mind before you conjure up a false story. I never for once sugested any deficiency of fair go in australian workplace, maybe you can point that out to me...?

Posted by: David on August 5, 2007 5:29 PM

I reckon there is no point in migrants crying "rascist" just because there is a forum where sensitive people will be visiting.

In most of Australia, I have yet to come across any blatant rascism in my day to day life, most people accept you at face value for YOU, not your skin color, or religion etc. etc. etc.

That said, there are some people that may be too set in their world view or might have had previous experiences that have coloured their view of migrants, but then, if a migrant cries "rascist", arent they doing the same thing?

If you as a migrant don't want to be prejudiced against based on your colour, race, religion etc, then I suggest you start doing so byt first recognising that when you say "Australians are rascist" YOU ARE DOING THE SAME THING! Judging the many based on your experience with the few...

And yes, I am a migrant of Indian descent...

Posted by: my2cents on August 5, 2007 5:31 PM

I am south asian and i have been living in australia for last few years.
I feel australia like my home or better than my home country.

People are friendly and very welcoming and i like the aussie culture and respect australian lifestyle.

I have to say asian countries are racist and they discrimanate people on the basis of their caste.
where there is no respect for hardwork but all nepotism exist.

I am happy to be in this country.
My message to new immigrants please do not pollute australia please learn to integrate not differentiate.

Posted by: Anil on August 5, 2007 5:33 PM

Hello, fellow Australians,

I'm an Asian immigrant and have been an Australian citizen for nearly twenty years. I love Australia and its rule of law, its democratic value, the tolerence of its people and institutions and overall framwork in which everyone has a chance if he/she tries.

To be frank, I don't like the idea of multiculturism, which has almost become a code of triblism, an excuse not to work hard, not adapt to local way of life, to blame other for one's own problems.

I chose to migrate to Australia instead of India, Japan, Korea, Malaysia or Lebnon, Yugoslavia and etc (if I ever be allowed) for obvious reasons. I come to Australia for its Anglo-Saxon values/cultures that built this and all other "top countries", USA, Canada, New Zealand and South Africa (to large extent). It's not an accident that only British colonies, among other big Power's colonies in 19th century, have "survived" and thrived. The country can't be based on "multiculturism" because it "brings" testy foreign foods. Foreign foods come not because of multiculturism, rather, it's because of the tolerence and generosity embedded in Anglo-Saxon culture/values that offers an evironment in which everyone has a go.

As an Asian immigrant who has first-hand knowledge of "multiculturism" and insitutinalised discriminations, I come to Australia because it is an Anglo-Saxon country with associated material and culture benefits. If it was one day turned into a country like China, Korea, Maylasia, Lebnon or worse, bad mix of all of them, I WILL leave because that is not what I came for. Why bother to migrate here, my old country has it all.

Posted by: TJ on August 5, 2007 5:47 PM

LIKE U.S.A AUSTRALIA CAN BECOME THE MELTING POT OF THE NEXT CENTURY. THE NATION MUST JUST TAKE CARE OF THE QUALITY OF THE IMMIGRANTS WHO ARE BOUND TO SETTLE OVER HERE. THEIR CONTRIBUTION TO THE ECONOMY AND CULTURE MUST BECOME MANIFOLD AND THIS MUST DEFINETLY MAKE AUSTRALIA ONE OF THE BIGGEST NATIONS AFTER U.S.A IN TERMS OF GLOBAL ECONOMIC POWER AND STRIKE A FAIR BALANCE WITH CHINA AND INDIA. A TRIANGULAR GROUPING OF ECONOMIC POWER IN THE REGION WILL DEFINETELY BRING INTO FOCUS THE REALITY THAT ALL NATIONS HAVE TO ONE DAY RESPECT EACH OTHERS PERCEPTION OF REGIONAL SECURITY AND THE MARITIME SAFETY OF THE REGION WILL NEVER BE FORCED TO FACE TERRORIST THREATS OF ROUGE NATIONS.THE PEOPLE OF AUSTRALIA MUST BECOME A BIT WARY OF THOSE IMMIGRANTS WHO HAVE OTHER AGENDAS IN THEIR MINDSET AND DO NOT WANT TO LEAD A PEACEFUL LIFE IN AUSTRALIA.IT IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE GOVT. OF AUSTRALIA TO INITIALLY SERPERATE THE CHAFF FROM THE GRAIN BEFORE GIVING A PERSON AN IMMIGRANT STATUS TO RESIDE OVER HERE IN AUSTRALIA.GIVEN THE BENIFITS THAT SUCH AN ACT WILL GO IN A LONG WAY TO HELP AUSTRALIA TO BECOME A MODEL NATION OF THE GLOBE LIKE SINGAPORE.

DD asks: Do you have to shout?

Posted by: venugopalgopinath on August 5, 2007 5:47 PM

"Only difference between so called "Australian" and we "Migrant" is that they came first and we came later unless they are "Native Australian" or quite frankly "Aboriginals"."

Posted by: Madhu Pudasaini on August 5, 2007 5:02 PM

Well, the same could be said for every country on earth because everyone came from somewhere else (out of Africa). It would be a little respectful to at least acknowledge that the British brought with them a values system that enabled the country to grow and develop into a democratic and prosperous land. Otherwise, I might have moved from the UK to Algeria or China instead of Australia.

Posted by: expat Geordie on August 5, 2007 5:50 PM

Only difference between so called "Australian" and we "Migrant" is that they came first and we came later unless they are "Native Australian" or quite frankly "Aboriginals".

Posted by: Madhu Pudasaini on August 5, 2007 5:02 PM

--------------

As you said we came first. And that makes us Australian and you an immigrant. There's nothing wrong with being an immigrant but please don't try to pretend that you are just as Australian as me because it is simply not true.

Posted by: Bruce Smith on August 5, 2007 5:52 PM

I was born in Paddington in the 70's, went to school as the only coloured guy in class, lots of wogs and nips too though. I never had a problem here with racism, and I, like many other bloggers here, thought Australia really was a cultural melting pot, with people from all over the world living together in harmony.

Now I can see what a load of crock that is, take Sydney for example, it's not multicultural, it is divided by suburbs and regions.

Sure people love chicken pad thai for dinner, or heading out to Ikea for a taste of multicultarism whilst choosing a coffee table, but only if they can get into their cars and whisk away back to their suburban strongholds and be amongst their 'own kind'.

As for multicultural mates... haha you see a bunch of aussies, and if there's a chink, wog or curry amongst them close your eyes and try and work out which on it is, you won't, these are just children of immigrants who have successfully assimilated into aussie culture. Check out the group of asians having lunch at a cafe in southern sydney CBD, is there a white man with them? a wog? an indian? what about the bunch of lebs hanging out the kebab shop in bankstown, an aussie there? an asian? no.

The white nationalist that post on this board, in my opinion make some very validate points, and I do think it's fair to say that true multiculturalism doesn't work, it hasn't worked overseas, and will not work here, where do we go from here? Who knows, im not going anywhere, this place is all I know.

Australia is for the most part not an outwardly racist country like many asian countries, Japan for instance, however I believe it's because of this 'fake' multiculturalism that we love to indulge in, we are in this situation.

PPP - India has not failed socially or economically, even after the brits came, raped and pilaged all they could, the country is one of the fastest growing economies on the planet, and socially? You cannot find a place anywhere else in the world were muslim, christian, hindu, buddist, athetist, etc will co-exist so peacefully. Don't take what shiv (who is clearly just an idiot) has to say as a representation of Indian sentiment, he's probably just failing exams and is scared his parents are going to yell at him.

Posted by: Indian Australian on August 5, 2007 5:54 PM

David, I appreciate the spirit and I'm on your side but let's look at some of the other lyrics of Advance Australia Fair:

When gallant Cook from Albion sail'd,
To trace wide oceans o'er,
True British courage bore him on,
Till he landed on our shore.
Then here he raised Old England's flag,
The standard of the brave;
With all her faults we love her still,
"Britannia rules the wave!"
In joyful strains then let us sing
"Advance Australia fair!"

While other nations of the globe
Behold us from afar,
We'll rise to high renown and shine
Like our glorious southern star;
From England, Scotia, Erin's Isle,
Who come our lot to share,
Let all combine with heart and hand
To advance Australia fair!
In joyful strains then let us sing
"Advance Australia fair!"

Shou'd foreign foe e'er sight our coast,
Or dare a foot to land,
We'll rouse to arms like sires of yore
To guard our native strand;
Britannia then shall surely know,
Beyond wide ocean's roll,
Her sons in fair Australia's land
Still keep an English soul.
In joyful strains then let us sing
"Advance Australia fair!"

Not really a hymn to multiculturalism. The Nazi's are out in full force today, I wonder if we'll get on media-watch again.

Posted by: chris on August 5, 2007 6:03 PM

PPP,you old sow, no wonder most aussie men are ditching aussie girls and going for asian women...you sound like you are full of ****
Letitia...ha..ha..is that an aussie name !!! sounds black American to me..just change your name to Paula, julie or linda..hun, and you will get a job instantly..(aussie who cant get a job in oz..ha ha...you wouldnt get a job in villages in asia if you cant get a job here)
To others, i just stated some facts as i observed it...and im glad that the moderator at smh.com allows it.
And yes, i frequently vent my spleen on indian websites..in a much worse manner..though i have noted there many ppl will abuse in same manner...maybe because there is much to abuse !! And to the person who said we cant abuse in india..!!! check some sites, you will be shocked at level of expression allowed.

Posted by: shiv on August 5, 2007 6:27 PM

Multicultural will not work, everyone is racist,...? I reckon everyone has some valid points somewhere sometime. As per my very first posting I am a proud new Australian, a proud new citizen to this country who proudly upholds this country's law and "mainstream" culture, I have been very more than warmly welcomed by majority of "anglo-australian" section of the community, that does not excempt me from being threatened, abused, yelled at (espescially when I'm out and about with my wife who is a very fair skinned English-Australian)by some some insecure member of the society who doesn't really belong to this country. To those of you who thinks I'm crying out to be defended or protected you can not be more wrong. I can proudly say that I never needed to beg for the standard of this country lowered so that I can paas the requirement to be in this country, au contraire I would love to see the standard raised.

I know that it is a sad fact of life that some people dont like others because they they look, we cannot invent a law that will prevent it and it will never work anyway as had been proven in this forum. As someone pointed in this forum that you cannot GENERALISE a whole group of people just because one person did something wrong.
It is so easy to say/type any irresponsible inflamatory comments, but I can proudly say up to this post I have not used any abusive language directed at any one, and if some of you cannot take my Larrikinism, mate I got one thing to say to you....get a life. By the way I'm off to have my dinner...

Posted by: David on August 5, 2007 6:29 PM

"Only difference between so called "Australian" and we "Migrant" is that they came first and we came later unless they are "Native Australian" or quite frankly "Aboriginals"."
Posted by: Madhu Pudasaini on August 5, 2007 5:02 PM

Technically speaking, the Australian Pygmie was the first native Australian. They came to the southern land from Indonesia about 73,000 years ago. Their short-stature was no match for the later arrival of Aboriginal Australian. Both the Pygmie and large marsupial herbivores were hunted to extinction by the modern day Aborigine.

Posted by: anthropologist on August 5, 2007 6:38 PM

“Please make up your mind before you conjure up a false story. I never for once sugested any deficiency of fair go in australian workplace, maybe you can point that out to me...? “
Posted by: David on August 5, 2007 5:29 PM

“its a tough job to live with so many nationalities.Aussies handle it well mostly.i give them good marks for this..(in the living arena yes,but not the work area where they get low marks)..."
Posted by: shiv on August 5, 2007 3:01 PM

My apologies to you, David. I originally thought that Shiv and David (your moniker) were one and the same blogger. Anyway, here is the post from Shiv that I addressed.

Posted by: Letitia on August 5, 2007 6:45 PM

I must say that I've been having a corker of a time to have a chinwag with youse all.
Honestly though I can understand why some of youse Spit the dummy at this migration thingymajiggy. I know alot of migrants are ratbags and drongos who'll never be a fair dinkum aussies like the rest us, but then again I usually tell 'em to rack off back to pommyland (joking mate...geewizz dont you know when someone's pullin yer leg?). Anyhow cobber youse cant hassle the nongs just 'cause they're willing to put a hard yakka for yonks for alot less money then the rest of us or when they dont really understand the lingo, we still have to let 'em 'ave a go eh? and if they do a better job then I'll say On ya mate !!!
Anyway...me tucker is ready...so I must bid youse all farewell...hooroo

Posted by: David on August 5, 2007 7:13 PM

ï¿½The white nationalist that post on this board, in my opinion make some very validate points, and I do think it's fair to say that true multiculturalism doesn't work, it hasn't worked overseas, and will not work here, where do we go from here? Who knows, im not going anywhere, this place is all I know.ï¿½
Posted by: Indian Australian on August 5, 2007 5:54 PM

I found your post (and many others recently posted) to be extremely encouraging, and I would urge others to post of their positive experiences here; otherwise we tend to just hear about tribal negativity, which makes us all feel like failures. But, please can we get one thing sorted here, because this is where lines are too often blurred: I am not a ï¿½white nationalistï¿½ because I have expressed myself in a few defensive posts. For the record, Iï¿½m not a puritan (Iï¿½m off mixed Italian/German/Irish blood). I used to loathe the American system of ï¿½multiculturalismï¿½ because it idealised a sense of conformity at the expense of oneï¿½s heritage. The European version seemed so much better, more civilized, because it embraced all cultures and let everyone do whatever they want--this is the model that Australia adopted in the early 1970s. Over the past 5 years, Iï¿½ve done a 360 degree turn on this angle because we can see in Europe, the UK (and to a lesser degree in Australia) that politically correct multiculturalism has created a rift in society, and major social upheaval is occurring. Letï¿½s take France as a recognisable example, which has experienced serious riots due to the grievances of Muslim immigrants. The riots were largely motivated by a lack of integration into French society (high unemployment, violence and unrest in this sector of the community). Yet Vietnamese and Chinese migrants have been very successful in integrating into French society. If current trends continue, France will have a Muslim majority within 20 years. There needs to be a rethink about how best to integrate the migrants coming into France. The rise of the far right in France (as well as Holland and Denmark) has been the result of this lack of integration. The effect has touched Britain, but it is not so advanced yet (although one canï¿½t overlook the acts of terrorism of the past few years in the UK). Prior to the Cronulla Riots in December 2005, Australia had never experienced any serious (or overt) public racist brawling. Why is it that Vietnamese from war-torn Vietnam who lost absolutely everything in the war, have been so incredibly resourceful and successful in this country and others, as well as Indians in the UK and here (to name but two highly adaptable peoples), and yet some sectors struggle (or are unwilling) to make the adjustment for the greater good of the whole? We know why, but if the truth be told, we canï¿½t say so in public through fear of the p.c. brigade jumping on us.

Posted by: PPP on August 5, 2007 7:32 PM

"PPP - India has not failed socially or economically, even after the brits came, raped and pilaged all they could, the country is one of the fastest growing economies on the planet, and socially? You cannot find a place anywhere else in the world were muslim, christian, hindu, buddist, athetist, etc will co-exist so peacefully. Don't take what shiv (who is clearly just an idiot) has to say as a representation of Indian sentiment, he's probably just failing exams and is scared his parents are going to yell at him."
Posted by: Indian Australian on August 5, 2007 5:54 PM

Yes, I think it's truly admirable as to how quick the Indian economy has developed through the focus on a technical service sector (we can only wish for the same in Australia). And, the cohesion amongst the various religious groups is to be admired (but, there's a long history there as well, and no doubt much pain in order to arrive at the current gain). Indian students in Melbourne are bringing their IT expertise to the country, and that is greatly appreciated (seeing as our school system seems to churn out blue-collar workers predominantly). I wasn't intending to have a go at India, but sometimes I feel it doesn't hurt to play a little banter game in order to neutralise accusations. I'm well aware of the destruction that colonialism brought with it to India (and the dispossession and starvation of some 20 million people as a result). Maybe that's why Indians are so resourceful, adaptable and hardworking--given the right environment, they can make a go of life anywhere on earth (Aust, UK, Middle East etc). India is very complex and has a large population to consider in its decision-making processes, so it wouldn't be fair to compare (something I dislike doing fullstop) the two nations on any level really. Again, thanks for your enlightening comments.

Posted by: PPP on August 5, 2007 7:42 PM

The world is a mess and we brought that whole thing here with us, what do we want to do? Bury our head in the sand and pretend there's not another 6 billion people out there? Immigration's a fact of life and we should embrace it. I grew up in a white Australia and it sucked, walk down Pitt St and look at all the sexy girls that wouldn't be here if it wasn't for immigration, who cares about a few idiots who come over and act like gooses. Anyway, the most embarassing people I come across overseas are drunk Aussie backpackers.

Posted by: Adam on August 5, 2007 7:52 PM

WHO THE BLOODY HELL ARE WE?!
A poem about what it means to be Australian
It's been called the Great Southern Land
The land down under too
A country under Commonwealth command
Represented by an Emu and Kangaroo
From the tip up north near Darwin
In the Northern Territory
Right down to Tassie's Launceston
It's the great Australian story
And as countries go I guess
We're fairly young when compared
For just over 100 birthdays rest
Since federation was declared
But tell that to our Aboriginal folk
For on this land they've sat
100 odd years to them is a joke
They've been here a lot bloody longer than that
And on the subject of all of the folk
Who make up the populous here
There's a lot of mixed blood in Sheila and bloke
Who gather for a barbie and beer
There's British and Asians
There's Indians and Europeans
There are Middle East nations
Americans, Russians and Koreans
And that is the essence of this great place
Australia has a multicultural population
We've people representing almost every race
Who make up the face of our nation
And on the whole we're a peaceful bunch
Anything else would be un-Australian
A day at the beach or a Melbourne Cup lunch
To not practice mateship would be somewhat alien
We cherish our sport and that's for sure
And we love to give anything a go
And taking it easy is at our core
In fact, it's almost a national motto
But that's not to say we don't work hard
An honest day's work earns us our grub
We're diggers willing to go the extra yard
We get the job done before hitting the pub
And our mateship is not just contained to our shores
We back up our allies all over the world
We've our fair share of soldiers fighting in wars
You'll always find an Aussie flag unfurled
So Aussies at home and Aussies abroad
Stand up and give yourselves a hand
For your contribution we can applaud
You're an important part of the Great Southern Land

Posted by: Chris on August 5, 2007 8:13 PM

Australia is not multicultural. It is multiracial. There is only one culture here and that is one of an English speaking, westernised and democratic society.
Let's bring in migrants who speak English and are compatible with those values. Let's face it we are not all meant to get along and unfortunately there are people in this country who come from cultures whose value systems are at the opposite end of the spectrum. WAKE UP AUSTRALIA!

Posted by: Craig on August 5, 2007 8:28 PM

As a white Australian married to an Asian immigrant, I honestly believe I have the best of both worlds. Not just because my wife can cook great food :), but because in the 4 years we have been together, we have taught each other another side of the world that we would never have have contemplated before we met. I have learned to question my "Aussie values", as she has with her own. Beyond abiding my the laws of this country, as far as I am concerned she can keep all of her traditional views and ways. We have different religions, different attitudes to family etc. You have to work at it, but I wouldn't want her any other way. Viva la difference!

Posted by: AFR on August 5, 2007 8:41 PM

Realist... you clearly have never been to Western Sydney, or the so called enclaves you refer to.. I have lived in various parts of the west and south west of Sydney, and have always experienced nothing but neighbours of various cultures enjoying each other's company, cuisine and experiences. It is only those that have never experienced living in a culturally diverse suburb, and form their views solely by relying on the reckless spruiking of radio shock jocks and tabloid columnists, that believe what you believe.
This country is built on the back of the migrant. It is immigrants and the children of migrants that have championed the great advancement of this country at every stage of the last 200 years.
Not only will it be hypocritical to abandon an immigration policy which equally welcomes migrants from every continent, but counter-productive and harmful to the development and further advancement of this country.
People should not forget that the parents of some of our greatest Australians would never have passed an English test, or Australian history exam... yet they were good enough to bring up children that have contributed greatly to this nation.
Think again Realist...

Posted by: Grow Up on August 5, 2007 8:41 PM

I am part Chinese, part Scottish Aussie. Lord Mayor John So of Melbourne is about as Aussie as you can get. He was voted the most popular mayor in the world a few years ago. Everywhere he goes in Melbourne, people love him 'cause he's open, honest and has a bit of the crazy Aussie spirit that we all like to see. Life is tough everywhere in the world, but I don't think it gets much easier than in laid-back Aussie. If you want a good life, you can work hard and live well, or you can take it easy and still enjoy the fruits of your labour. Everyone is welcome in Melbourne.

Posted by: North Melbourne supporter on August 5, 2007 8:59 PM

Letitia and Mary J - At the very least, get the guy's name right. Its "Shiv" not "Shriv".

PPP - Your racist comments are disgusting. Get a life.

Posted by: SN on August 5, 2007 9:28 PM

"And yes, i frequently vent my spleen on indian websites..in a much worse manner..though i have noted there many ppl will abuse in same manner...maybe because there is much to abuse !! And to the person who said we cant abuse in india..!!! check some sites, you will be shocked at level of expression allowed."

I have to agree with Shiv. I regularly tune into Indian, Pakistani, West Indian, Saffie and English cricket blogs, and without a doubt, the Indian blogs are the most disturbing. The racist ranting on the cricket blogs alone is enough to warrant the banning of an Australian cricket coach on the sub-continent for life. They're pretty scary places to visit, even for a 100kg Aussie male.

I think this bloke is safe from the Aussie girls. Sounds like a submissive little lass will do him just fine.

Posted by: Bob the Builder, Noosa on August 5, 2007 9:30 PM

"Letitia...ha..ha..is that an aussie name !!! sounds black American to me..just change your name to Paula, julie or linda..hun, and you will get a job instantly."

I can't and won't speak for Letitia, but the name sounds Latin-based. It's a common girls name in my native Ireland. Would it bother you Shiv if she is a black American? Your tones sounds racist to me. I would hope that a feisty woman like Letitia wouldn't sell herself short to a misogynistic type like yourself. You'd be surprised to find that women in Ireland and Scotland are generally a lot more outspoken and ballsy than Aussie women from what I've noticed in my 2 years here. Suggest you get a grip because you're not doing the "let's welcome the immigrant" any justice at all, mate.

Posted by: Toby McG, Sydney on August 5, 2007 9:45 PM

I am an African migrant from a resource rich ex-British colony. worked with British, South African, Canadian and Aussie expats and also studied in the UK, met some more Aussies there. Conclusion - I found myself more in tune with the friendly, non prejudiced, care free, easy going, humorous and hard working Aussies. And so when I decided to leave home, the natural choice was Australia, and I am glad I did.

Posted by: ET on August 5, 2007 10:25 PM

I don't mean to be rude to my cousins, but Australia seems a little innocent on the m/c issue. I have been following the Haneef case from here in Spain (UK citizen), and I can see that your wonderful legal system didn't take into account the lies and deceit that terrorists and their family, and supporters, will tell to allow the suspects to escape persecution. Just as some immigrants have no respect or admiration for the social and legal system, neither does Haneef and his cunning family. Behind your back they are laughing at you and throwing scorn on you and your values. Cynically, they are using you and like 'difficult' migrants will cry 'unfair', 'illegal' and whatever else they can think of to abuse your society. Europe and the UK are floundering under the weight of unwanted and uncontrolled immigration. Australia is the last bastion of hope for the A/S/C world, but I fear it's too late.

Shiv, I'm not sure how it is in your culture (I'm English), but it's pretty low to attack the women of a nation don't you think? Having just caught up on the blog, I'd say you had it coming for you.

Posted by: expat Geordie, now Sydney on August 5, 2007 11:36 PM

My brother spent a few years living in Ghana, and learnt as much about the local culture as he did the imposed Indian culture. He felt that the Indians were very rude to the locals (and condescending of the local women treating them like prostitutes). Always trying to impress you with their vast material wealth and superiority to the locals and trying to show how advanced they were. Sound familiar Siva (or whatever your smart-alec name is?). I would never have believed it as I grew up thinking that India was terribly poor, and therefore, that the country was largely humble, which couldn't be any further from the truth. Have just come back from the UK, and the world of Shilpa "I'm so special" Shetty.

Posted by: Senorita of Perth on August 6, 2007 12:28 AM

As much as immigrants are celebrated for bringing an ever increasing diversity to Australian society, I think there is sometimes an underlying misconception that Australian society was once a stable paradise of racial and cultural unity. Unfortunately for those who'd like to think it was just simpler in the past before immigrants arrived, it's a bit of a myth. A hundred years ago, the essence of Australian colonial culture was not only thought to be Anglo-Saxon, but more specifically built on "British culture" and nineteenth-century bourgeois Christian sensibilities. There have always been outsiders, and those who weren't seen to adequately live up to dominant perceptions of what constituted Australian culture or 'values'. What's more important is fostering a culture that takes pride in its diversity, so that in a twenty-first century context, migrants who choose to preserve their cultural heritage, or be critical of the direction of Australian politics, aren't labelled less Australian that anyone else. The obsession with some fabled set of 'Australian values' (is it democracy? I wonder if Indigenous Australians would be equally persuaded) bears remarkable similarity to the way British Protestant 'values' were once used to include - and exclude - not that long ago.

Posted by: VS on August 6, 2007 12:54 AM

"Shriv, I'm a qualified accountant, but I can't get a job because all of the Indian and Asian students have found success where I have not. I'm a white, middle-class female (currently working as an office clerk) in my early-20s. Should I go to the racial discrimination board?"
Hmmm - see, that's so 1939 Germany right there...blaming other races for studying and working harder than you...
You might have well have wrote:
"Waaah - poor me! All the indian and asian kids get the top marks these days!! It's not my fault they are dedicated and work hard, paying their way through their studies doing jobs that white people think themselves too good to do. Why can't the poor lazy-arsed white people do as well as they do?! It's not our fault we're so spoilt, not self-motivated, and blame the government for all our problems!!"
Grow up.

Posted by: Jez on August 6, 2007 4:47 PM

Well done to all of of you who have posted your opinion on this blog, positive, negative, mediocre, hatefull, uplifting, whatever. It is just another proof how great it is to live in this country. Let me say this as my last posting:
Australia is a great and wonderfull country. I am a proud new citizen who loves and am proud of this country's great culture and colorfull history. I owe it to this country's founding father who had built this great nation those including but not exclusive of the British, Scottish, Irish, German, French, Dutch, Spanish,Italian, Chinese, Indonesian, Potuguese, and everyone else who had ever come and worked this land and make it as it is. I personally owe it to everyone who had sacrificed their life building and defending this country's pillars of democracy, freedom, and very strong sense of self and fair go. I owe it to these people to make this country an even greater land for ALL who are willing and wanting to be a good AUSTRALIAN. I also owe it to these people to make sure that this country remain a fair and equitable to all who wants to contribute and be a part of ONE GREAT NATION's family. I nor anybody else OWE NOTHING to people who claims that they are more "asutralian" than evereyone else who is not a part of the first fleet family.
It is good and important to maintain the high standard of education of the new migrants a part of the migrants intake program I AM 100% behind the idea...and believe me there is nothing racist at all about it.
To those of you who clearly stated your motive through your irrelevant abuse and insults,you are only showing me how insecure you really are. To those of you just to be sure let me tell you that I completely am appaled at shiv's comments and think that he is a complete nong as this kind of inflamatory comments does not help towards a constructive discussion, at the same time I would like to once again state to some of you like Darkie McMillan,Bruce Smith, Mary J, you are as bad as him although I must thank you all for your irresponsible, inflamatory comments as they do show to me the home grown brand of rubish we want to keep out of this great country alongside the rubbish from outside the country, ie: the divisive, insecure fundamentalists who just cannot and do not want to get along with anyone else.
To Letitia I applaud your great valour of admiting your mistake, I do not take your misplaced comments to heart (i do think shiv is a pygalgia anyhow :-) )
Last but not least let me also place my respect for the spiritual custodian of this land.
We cannot change the world before we change ourselves.
David

DD remarks I should point out that the David who has taken it upon himself to thank participants in this discussion is not the same David who wrote the original column. But thanks, anyway.

Posted by: David on August 7, 2007 5:29 PM

Sorry I can’t help it

To Oznseoul,

Yes I do apologise for my imperfect English, it is after all only my sixth language that I speak.

Obviously you are missing my point made towards Darkie McMillan's comment that any race other than his brand of "first fleet" race cannot and should not mix in this country. As a direct descendant of the first fleet (as per his own claim) I believe that he should take a better care and pride in the display and use of his very own language (in relation to how new migrants do not speak or write English).

Cheers cobber

To David Dale: My apology if my name was mistaken by some with yours.

Posted by: David on August 7, 2007 6:25 PM

Latita Said "
Shriv, I'm a qualified accountant, but I can't get a job because all of the Indian and Asian students have found success where I have not. I'm a white, middle-class female (currently working as an office clerk) in my early-20s. Should I go to the racial discrimination board? "

My dear Latita.. i work as an accoutant.. and there is such a huge shortage of accountants in Australia that i a actually surprised by what you have just said.. the only conclusion i can make is that you must be preety bad at what you are doing .... because at the end of the day why would an employer want to hire anyone from oversees in a an industry such as accounting when they can hire a local with local knowledge and skills ???
the only thing i can think of is that you are bad at your job... or don't know what you are doing...or not skilled(oh wait.. are you a data entry person who thinks you are an accountant ?? or are you a CA/CPA ?? ) so stop blaming others for taking YOUR job.. just go and fix the situation...

Posted by: Nick on August 12, 2007 9:01 AM

The biggest culture revolution that will take place in Australia is the Agriculture Revloution!